# Why don't dogs walk to heel?



## fortunesfool (Feb 11, 2012)

Not looking for training tips as such as there is many suggestions to hand but wondering what the dog psychology is for pulling/wandering on the lead? I get with recall that dogs may not come back because we don't give them the right signals to make them want to, so what drives them to pull?


----------



## Micky93 (May 15, 2012)

I'm no expert, but I have heard the odd reason here and there so I'll just spout what I've heard (although may be wrong!!)

I believe there is something to do with the fact that in packs, dogs who are higher up the pack chain will lead or scout ahead of the rest of the pack. Explain why they feel they can lead you rather than the other way round.

Don't get me wrong, I could be way off the mark here... and I have no idea if what I've been told is right to any extent but there you go. Someone wise and wonderful will come along in a minute and give you the right answer!


----------



## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Heeling isn't a natural thing - it's something we invented to compete with and also gain control over dogs. You don't see wild/stray dogs heeling by the side of other dogs or people 

Dogs don't see people as dogs so don't believe all the Alpha stuff - well comparing dogs and human behaviour that is.


----------



## Barkley Star (Feb 10, 2012)

It's not a very natural thing is it? Walking on a lead certainly isnt, nor is walking right next to some one's leg. But, I think it depends on a couple of things. For instance, humans walk sooo slow comparing to just about any dog. If you start walking fast, jogging, the dogs tend to stay closer, they have to work to keep ut and also they can see the point of it (we are seemingly going somewhere). Also, people can be very boring when out walking, especially, when there are so many great smells around. why ignore them?


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

If other stuff is more interesting they'll investigate it. If you're more interesting they'll stick with you.

That is reason + training method in one.


----------



## fortunesfool (Feb 11, 2012)

At the moment I feel like only by smearing myself in peanut butter would I be more interesting than anything. 

With bodhi there are two very distinct moods, wandering-basically checking everything out and pulling-which is the group walking problem. I know there is a alot said against the pack theory but his pulling does come across like he just wants to be in front.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

fortunesfool said:


> At the moment I feel like only by smearing myself in peanut butter would I be more interesting than anything.
> 
> With bodhi there are two very distinct moods, wandering-basically checking everything out and pulling-which is the group walking problem. I know there is a alot said against the pack theory but his pulling does come across like he just wants to be in front.


If that is true then stopping every time he goes in front will work very quickly.


----------



## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Why they pulls?
Because it always works for them. 
Because they walk faster than humans.
Because they can smell and hear things invisible for us which make them excitied
Because people invented leads and heeling and this isn't natural for dogs.



Micky93 said:


> I believe there is something to do with the fact that in packs, dogs who are higher up the pack chain will lead or scout ahead of the rest of the pack. Explain why they feel they can lead you rather than the other way round.


Not really.
Can you imagine that when battle starts our leaders will walk in first row? No. Why? They are responsible form to important things to die first. The same rule is in a pack. If anything happened to breeding couple all pack is in danger.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

We train dogs to pull. 
Dog wants to go to park. Dog runs to park. Owner dragged along to park. Dog gets to park. 
Dogs move faster than us. We are slow, clumsy lumbering creatures who crawl along at a snails` pace. (To a dog)
Sweet FA to do with packs. Just the fact we don`t run everywhere.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think part of it is that a dogs natural pace is faster than ours. When able to move at their own pace most dogs I've seen do not walk, they trot. And because people allow pulling dogs learn that pulling works to get them where they want to go so they pull more. 

I think it was Patricia Mcconnell who described heeling from a dogs point of view as something like "walk by your owners side at the pace of death". I'm sure most dogs just don't see the point in it which is probably why it takes so much work to teach it.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I think the question is from the wrong angle - it should be "why the hell SHOULd dogs walk to heel?"

There is nothing natural about being on a lead, nothing natural about walking in a specific position relative to those they are walking with... its a totally alien concept. To me it isn't an issue of dogs feeling any specific need to be in front, more that they don't have a specific need to stay side by side.

As a comparison - counter surfing. We expect dogs not to take food from worktops and tables because that constitutes "stealing" human food. But would you expect a canine of any type (wolf, fox, feral, stray dog, etc) to NOT take food out in the open simply because it was located up a hill or on a tree stump? Of course not.

There are plenty of reasons for dogs to walk in front - their walking speed is naturally faster than ours, they want to get somewhere asap (the park, the next lampost), and as others have said it works - dogs LEARN to pull when they start lead walking and discover that charging ahead gets them where they want to go. 

Don't see any relation to pack theory nonsense - otherwise would you think that every guide dog and every sled / carting dog is exerting "dominance" over its owners? Not to mention since when do you ever see a group of dogs moving in this fashion (linear)? Would be a pretty inefficient hunting strategy for wild canids too if you think about it.


----------



## Barryjparsons (Nov 27, 2011)

It is a lot of effort for a dog to walk well on a lead

1. Stay close to stupid human
2. Don't pull stupid human
3. Ignore everything that the stupid human decides isn't interesting
4. Walk as slow as stupid human
5. Don't cross in front or behind of stupid human
6. Wait while the stupid human stops for no reason when the level of the ground changes occasionally and big fast things go past.
7. Sit down for no apparent reason when told by stupid human.
8. Change direction for no apparent reason also when told by stupid human.

A lot of rules there for a young pup and it is no wonder sometimes they just think " screw you!"


----------



## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

I must say I always thought that Dogs are a pack animal.
That is how they live in the wild.
The breeding pair are the alphas(or the DOMINANT ones, as a lot of people don't seem to like this word)and from what I've seen do have control over the rest of the Pack.
We've always had a few dogs at a time & from watching them its clear to see there are leaders and followers.
When it's time to go on the hunt, out for a patrol / defend their territory it's the alphas that make the decision,and usually go 1st,which members of a pack eat 1st, has the best spot to rest etc etc.
This is the reason they are the Pack leaders and also the reason they are the breeding pair,strongest,fittest and usually calmest.
That's the way Nature works isn't it? ( in the animal kingdom)You don't get the chance to reproduce if you can't proof your worthy
As some one else mentioned in the thread earlier it wouldn't be a good hunting strategy for the pack to hunt in a line, (1 behind the other)well they don't they have a strategy worked out already which usually does entail the alphas leading and the subordinates following not ina straight line but Defo behind.
There has to be order or nothing gets accomplished ?
It's the alphas that also keep the order in the group,supply the food.
Walking to heel is just another demand that we as Humans place on our dogs for convenience/safety. There are plenty of techniques out there and its pretty easily trained behaviour with a little Patience & consistency.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Natural or not.....a dog that pulls is a no no in my book. No fun whatsoever having a arm yanked by a pulling dog - not to mention highly dangerous.

I am far from being a dog expert but patience and time will get a dog walking nicely.


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2012)

Dogs also pull on lead because of oppositional reflex. 
Has absolutely nothing to do with dominance. Ive yet to see a dog in the wild use a leash and collar on another dog.


----------



## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

No leash used in the wild but body language and even physical contact all day long.
Weather that's interpreted as Dominance or not who knows?


----------



## Beverage (Mar 22, 2012)

Barryjparsons said:


> It is a lot of effort for a dog to walk well on a lead
> 
> 1. Stay close to stupid human
> 2. Don't pull stupid human
> ...


Actually following is the most natural thing for a dog to do. The difficult part is providing the right leadership...


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I recently read a book that states a dog should NEVER go in front of its human because then it will think itself dominant and must also stay within a certain range at all times. All I could think was what a terribly dull life those dogs must lead and how difficult it must be to enjoy doing anything with them if they must always stay behind you within a certain distance.


----------



## Beverage (Mar 22, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I recently read a book that states a dog should NEVER go in front of its human because then it will think itself dominant and must also stay within a certain range at all times. All I could think was what a terribly dull life those dogs must lead and how difficult it must be to enjoy doing anything with them if they must always stay behind you within a certain distance.


Dominance is a state. The problem is usually the opposite. by allowing the dog in front you are forcing them to take responsibilities (meeting other dogs, scouting etc) This can be more stressful. Dogs aren't like people. They don't seek freedom and independance. A dog we would see as free roaming alone and free to do as he pleases will feel isolated and alone.

In my opinion the best relationship to build with your dog is one of a trusted leader. That way the dog doesn't to be fearful or aggressive he is 100% certain that you can deal with any situation.

That dog will follow you and be happy to do so. He is a carefree dog who doens't have to worry about anything!

Also that is rubbish! Of course your dog can go in front. As long as he doesn't become the one leading the walk. I would say you need to practice at least 50-50 leading and following to avoid confusing the dog.


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2012)

Beverage said:


> Actually following is the most natural thing for a dog to do. The difficult part is providing the right leadership...





Beverage said:


> Dominance is a state. The problem is usually the opposite. by allowing the dog in front you are forcing them to take responsibilities (meeting other dogs, scouting etc) This can be more stressful. Dogs aren't like people. They don't seek freedom and independance. A dog we would see as free roaming alone and free to do as he pleases will feel isolated and alone.


Are these your opinions, or are you stating this as fact?
If stating as fact, do you have any evidence of this? That following is the *most* natural thing for a dog? That dominance is a state? That allowing a dog in front of you forces them to take responsibilities that stress them out?


----------



## Beverage (Mar 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Are these your opinions, or are you stating this as fact?
> If stating as fact, do you have any evidence of this? That following is the *most* natural thing for a dog? That dominance is a state? That allowing a dog in front of you forces them to take responsibilities that stress them out?


Sorry yes these are my opinions.

ZZZZZZZZ


----------



## Beverage (Mar 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Dogs also pull on lead because of oppositional reflex.
> Has absolutely nothing to do with dominance. Ive yet to see a dog in the wild use a leash and collar on another dog.


Sorry are you stating this as a fact? Can you provide ebidence please?


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Beverage said:


> Dominance is a state. The problem is usually the opposite. by allowing the dog in front you are forcing them to take responsibilities (meeting other dogs, scouting etc) This can be more stressful. Dogs aren't like people. They don't seek freedom and independance. A dog we would see as free roaming alone and free to do as he pleases will feel isolated and alone.
> 
> In my opinion the best relationship to build with your dog is one of a trusted leader. That way the dog doesn't to be fearful or aggressive he is 100% certain that you can deal with any situation.
> 
> ...





Beverage said:


> Actually following is the most natural thing for a dog to do. The difficult part is providing the right leadership...


A dog will follow when you have supressed its desires of hunting and removed the excitement of new and exciting things.

In the top quote you state "it is ok for a dog to go out front as long as it doesn't become the one leading the walk". Rough shooting is one of the oldest methods and involves a spaniel that pushes through scrub and undergrowth using its nose to locate game and flush it for the gun walking behind it. At all times the hunt is lead by the dog and it's scenting abilities.
In obedience trials the dogs are sent away from the handler, usually out in front and are controlled. 
Working trials the dog runs forward of the handler to locate the livestock.
When using a lurcher the dog is hunting up in front of the handler makign side to side sweeps of the covering ground.
On pegs the retrieving dog will often sit in front of the handler/gun to be sent away.
Huskies run up front together.
Tracking dogs hunt up out in front.
Foxhounds run out in front of the horses.
Sniffer dogs work in front of the handelr.
Search and rescue dogs work out in front of the handler.

Do I need to go on or are you getting scared of how many dominant dogs there are yet these are the best trained dogs in the world?

The whole reason dogs don't walk to heel is because they are hard wired to hunt. When you teach a dog to "Heel" you are supressing their greatest instinct which is why it is so frustrating, takes grit and deterimination and has more tools specifically designed for that one behaviour than any other. You are taking away the natural behaviour of a dog not making it submissive.

When you play ftech it is a hunting game. Hide and seek with a treat is a hunting game. Half the stuff you do with your dog training wise is what has been done over hundreds of years to have a more biddable hunting companion.

A dog that stays to heel simply means you get to choose when and what it can get released on. My running dog is taught to walk to heel, not because it is easier for me to walk her but because I want to choose the runs she has. I don't want her coursing something that she stands no chance of catching and scaring off the rabbit I wish her to run on and will be able to catch. I am supressing the hunt for the greater benefit.


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2012)

> ouesi said:
> 
> 
> > Dogs also pull on lead because of oppositional reflex.
> ...


Yes, I am stating this as a fact.

Oppositional reflex first discovered I believe by Pavlov, could be wrong, but I frankly don't feel like looking it up. 
If you don't believe me, pull on a leashed puppy who hasn't learned leash manners and see what happens. Then take any dog and push on their chest and see what happens.

Dogs don't collar and leash each other in the wild or otherwise. They don't have thumbs. Makes buckling collars and clipping leashes really hard if not impossible.

Does anyone really think that when a dog pulls on a leash he is saying "screw you lowly human, I am in charge here"? Or is it more likely that the dog is saying "oooh! LOVELY smell, what IS that?" or like in the movie Up, its just a reaction, "SQUIRREL!!!!!"


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Until they get old...
I walk too fast for Shamus, and too slow for Prince. For Daisy it`s Just Right. 
It`s the Goldilocks conundrum.


----------



## Barryjparsons (Nov 27, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Yes, I am stating this as a fact.
> 
> Does anyone really think that when a dog pulls on a leash he is saying "screw you lowly human, I am in charge here"?


Personally I think mine is plotting world domination. Pulling on the lead is only one of his cunning plans. He only has a few more pieces to put into place and he will achieve his ultimate Machiavellian goal of enslaving all to do his bidding.

Mah ha ha ha


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Like many people have said, I think pulling on a lead is as simple as we walk too slow for the dog and the dog is in a rush to get to where it knows it's going to have some fun.

There is a certain route I take with my dogs on occasion. One day we'll cross the road and onto the fields where they are set free to run wild. Another day we'll stay on the pavement and simply do a lead walk back home. They will pull (one in particular) until the point where the options begin. If I cross the road they continue to pull. If I turn right they suddenly stop pulling because they know they arent going to be set free and we are returning home, which is something they dont want to do, so then pulling ceases to be rewarding.

Although unnatural for a dog, I believe loose lead walking is essential for the comfort of both dog and handler and with future dogs I will certainly put more effort into training this. There are many behaviours which are natural to dogs which we suppress because it's not desirable, pulling is just one of them.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

In my experience, people who believe in dominance / pack theory tend to interpret every canine behaviour as directly linked to a show of either dominance or submission.

IMO this is not particularly helpful - it fails to consider that dogs (like all animals) have a huge number of motivations for doing what they do, both in terms of nature (instinct) and nurture (prior experience).

Sticking with pulling on a lead:

Reasons relating to nature could include prey drive, natural walking speed (which is faster than a humans), opposition reflex (a reflex behaviour), etc.

Reasons relating to nurture might be the dog knows its heading to the park / next lampost and wants to get there asap, pulling has been rewarded previously (it worked), the dog may have had its toes stepped on by a clumsy human and now prefers to walk just out of range, fear eg of traffic or crowds that the dog wants to leave asap, etc.

To suggest that pulling on the lead is simply a display of dominance is to ignore all other possible causes, and often does not go hand in hand with other behaviours in that particular dog. 

I've known plenty of dogs that pull on the lead even though they display no other signs of supposed "dominance", inc dogs whose owners follow the usual "pack rules" of eating first, not allowing dogs on furniture or in bedroms and all that.

If pulling is nothing more than a display of dominance, then dogs that are clear about "their place in the pack" wouldn't do it. 

Owners that behave like assertive, confident people in tone of voice and body language, that ignore all attention seeking, eat first, go through doors first, keep the dog out of bedrooms and off furniture, practise NILIF, obedience train, and all that jazz would not need to ever teach loose leash walking as the dog would do it automatically. Funnily enough this isn't the case - walking on a lead is something that has to be taught.


----------



## Beverage (Mar 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Yes, I am stating this as a fact.
> 
> Oppositional reflex first discovered I believe by Pavlov, could be wrong, but I frankly don't feel like looking it up.
> If you don't believe me, pull on a leashed puppy who hasn't learned leash manners and see what happens. Then take any dog and push on their chest and see what happens.
> ...


so you are not providing evidence then?


----------



## fortunesfool (Feb 11, 2012)

I leave you kids alone for five minutes and see what happens...

The majority opinion seems to be that humans are dull and walk too slowly (or variations thereof). 

1) I'm not walking faster, as he just walks faster and it gets ridiculous pretty quickly

2) Is there an argument for making me more interesting or everything else less interesting (I imagine someone will tell me its both). If every time we see a tissue I walk him up to it will tissues become less interesting or is dog sense like a goldfish memory in that if he hasn't seen it in the last 7 seconds then it's new and exciting?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry - you said in the OP you were not after training tips, just ideas on the reasons behind the behaviour....

I don't believe anyone is saying that a dog should be allowed to pull on the lead - its painful, annoying and potentially dangerous to all concerned.

In terms of stopping it, as a learned behaviour it can be unlearned; the dog simply has to realise that pulling doesn't work (easier said than done of course). 

I've had success with the usual 2 methods:

Stop walking every time time the lead goes tight, and only start walking again once its slack. The dog will learn that far from "working" (ie being reinforced) pulling has the opposite effect and stops anything good happening.
Or
Drunken walk / change direction every time the dog pulls, so he has to learn to focus on you and can't successfully pull you anywhere because he has no idea where you're going.

With regards to being interested in everything, like tissues etc. its most likely to be the smell which holds their interest, which of course varies with every tissue he finds. Teaching a solid "leave" could be useful here. 

I personally would still stick with the usual methods for lead-walking, and in some cases the things he wants to get to can be the reward in themselves. Say he wants to go sniff the next lampost, so he pulls towards it. At the moment he thinks that pulling will get him there quicker - if he does pull and he does get to the lampost, then pulling behaviour is being reionforced. If you stop walking every time he pulls, he will learn pulling actively prevents him doing what he wants, and that the quickest, indeed only, way to get to that lampost is to walk nicely.


----------



## fortunesfool (Feb 11, 2012)

Colette said:


> Sorry - you said in the OP you were not after training tips, just ideas on the reasons behind the behaviour....


I guess I just couldn't help myself  Did fully intend this to be a "why" and not "how" post!

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, the longer I've owned the dog the more I've become interested in the "why" he does things. It also helps with confidence that I'm taking the right training approach and not to give up on it when it isn't going well.


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2012)

Beverage said:


> so you are not providing evidence then?


Evidence that dogs don't have thumbs? Can't buckle collars or clip leashes?
Will this do?









Or do you want evidence of oppositional reflex? 
Watch any trainer who understands dogs use it to teach a puppy an energetic and fast recall. Trainer holds on to the puppy, pulls back, while owner calls, then trainer lets go, puppy runs to owner. Opposition reflex.

Or you want evidence that dogs aren't thinking "screw you lowly human" when they pull? Now that I concede I cannot provide evidence for. Unless Dr. Doolitle shows up in the flesh, no one can prove what dogs are thinking. My guess though is that they're not thinking of the other end of the leash when they pull on it.

I can, however provide good sources that suggest that dominance is not a state. Starting here:
Elsevier

Now, if you prefer to believe that your dogs are plotting your ultimate demise with every tug on the leash, knock yourself out. I'm just presenting the evidence you asked for


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2012)

Colette said:


> In my experience, people who believe in dominance / pack theory tend to interpret every canine behaviour as directly linked to a show of either dominance or submission.
> 
> IMO this is not particularly helpful - it fails to consider that dogs (like all animals) have a huge number of motivations for doing what they do, both in terms of nature (instinct) and nurture (prior experience).
> 
> ...


Great post 
I've always wondered why it is that we only worry about dominance in dogs. People who work with cats don't worry about dominance do they? People who work with dolphins, killer whales, sea otters etc., don't seem concerned with dominance... Zookeepers don't eat before their charges or make sure they go through doors first to they?
Why is it only with dogs that we become so obsessed with dominance?



fortunesfool said:


> 2) Is there an argument for making me more interesting or everything else less interesting (I imagine someone will tell me its both). If every time we see a tissue I walk him up to it will tissues become less interesting or is dog sense like a goldfish memory in that if he hasn't seen it in the last 7 seconds then it's new and exciting?


I don't know that making yourself more interesting will cure the pulling. Behavior is behavior and has to be learned or unlearned (or an alternate/incompatible behavior learned). 
Don't get me wrong, engagement is always a good thing, but I don't think its the entire cure for pulling.

The other thing that always thows me on these leash walking threads is the term "heel". To me, "heel" is what I do in competition. Dog glued to my left leg attention on me. TBH, I haven't found much need for a true "heel" outside of the competitive ring. Its a fun behavior to teach, but not really how I want to walk with my dogs when we're out for a stroll.
When I'm walking the dogs on leash, I teach a loose leash walk or simply leash manners. All I care is that they keep the leash loose and not trip me up by walking circles around me. I don't care if they are in front, behind, to the left, to the right, head up, head down... I don't care. As long as the leash isn't taught I'm happy. If I need them to get closer to me for a tight space I have a cue "right here" which simply means get closer to me than where you were before - left or right side.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

cuz there is no _"instinct"_ to heel to another dog, :lol: nor to anyone else, 
for that matter!



fortunesfool said:


> ...wondering what the *dog psychology* is for pulling / wandering on the lead?
> 
> I [understand re] recall, dogs may not [return when called], because we don't give them the right signals
> to make them want to [return, but] what *drives them to pull*?


"dog psychology" was popularized by a certain toothy TV-host  & it's not a behavioral term - 
it's an invention, & means anything U want it to mean, which makes it pretty useless for discussions.

Dogs most-often don't *recall on cue* because they weren't taught that, nor was the dog *proofed:*
deliberately & slowly increasing the number of distractions, their intensity, the dog's own freedom of choice, 
& the DISTANCE between the handler and the dog... while practicing the recall, under those varied 
& slowly more-challenging circumstances.

my _behavioral math_ - 
_'The odds of a dog complying with any fluent cue, are the inverse-square 
of the distance from the handler: as the distance increases, the likelihood falls rapidly.'_ 
the further the dog is from the handler, the more likely s/he is to fail to comply - unless the behavior 
has a rich history of being rewarded, & the dog has been both well-trained & well-proofed.

in the specific case of "HEEL" - walking at our all-too-slow, dull human pace, BESIDE the handler, 
the leash creates tension - & dogs are not herd-animals, they do not give to pressure but resist it. 
The dogs' innate reaction to being pulled or pushed is to pull or push BACK: it's called *oppositional reflex*.

dogs have 4-feet, better balance, outrun us, have faster reflexes, & so on; dawdling along as if we're 
going to our own funerals is part of the problem: the dog gets bloody bored, & there's a whole world out there 
to sniff, see, watch, explore, pursue, other dogs, other people, wildlife,... Who wants to dribble along 
with Droopy, here, when there's all that STUFF out there ==> ??? :thumbup:

GET MOVING - 
walking at a crisp, brisk pace makes it easier for the dog to walk along with U, & give the dog 
a specific cue to indicate "free time" for sniffing, etc. While walking, look ahead at a visual goal - 
have a definite destination, & look at that goal; when U get closer, choose another further ahead.

Dogs use our visual-attention in part to determine what we're doing & where we're going - 
so looking ===> there gives the dog a clue to our general intention & what we're gonna do next. 
:001_smile: Teaching our dogs to walk on a nice loose-leash is pretty simple, but requires consistency - 
which most humans really suck at, unfortunately.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

fortunesfool said:


> ATM I feel... only by smearing myself in peanut butter, would I be more interesting than anything [else].


:lol: i do feel for ya, really - but love that image! 


fortunesfool said:


> ...[Bodhi's] pulling does come across [as], 'he just wants to be in front'.


not really - he wants to GET TO the next smell, dog, person, ball, destination... 
& we're bloody be-dam*ed slow, ya know.  Getting where we're going, or getting where s/he is going, 
is the dog's motivation - not "dissing the owner", taking over the Alpha position, or any other flim-flam.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Andromeda said:


> Why [do dogs] pull?
> Because it always works for them.
> Because they walk faster than humans.
> Because they can smell and hear things invisible to us, which make them excited.
> Because people invented leads and heeling, and this isn't natural for dogs.


REP! :thumbup: love it! Succinct & accurate.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Dogs also pull on lead because of oppositional reflex.
> Has absolutely nothing to do with dominance. Ive yet to see a dog in the wild use a leash and collar on another dog.


didn't read the whole thread, i've been reading one at a time & responding to a few... 
excellent point, :thumbup:


----------



## fortunesfool (Feb 11, 2012)

Leashed, if nothing else I love your posts as they actually come across like a steam of doggie consciousness. I suspect you might be the only person who could actually have a conversation with my dog. 

In light of all this advice does anyone know where I can buy peanut butter in bulk


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

fortunesfool said:


> In light of all this advice, does anyone know where I can buy peanut butter in bulk?


"choose to heel" - 
a Bullmastiff on-leash in a class:
Choose to Heel Exercise - YouTube

and Dexter choosing NOT to heel :lol: 
Choose to Heel, Not Today - YouTube

a new-puppy & the owner, who simply walks around... 
till the pup FIGURES OUT that accompanying pays off! 
Choose to Heel - YouTube

a Dobe off-leash in a fenced yard: 
choose to heel - YouTube

a super-excited male teen, in a fenced yard: 
Clicker training Ty using choose to heel method with some - YouTube

each of these handlers is getting more or less success, in part based on the dog's emotional state 
& attention to the handler - the goofy B&T teen is SO excited, he's about to pop out of his skin, :lol:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Clicker training a heel with a 10 week old American Bulldog - YouTube

a 10-WO AmBull pup off-leash in a horse-training arena...


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2012)

Barryjparsons said:


> Personally I think mine is plotting world domination. Pulling on the lead is only one of his cunning plans. He only has a few more pieces to put into place and he will achieve his ultimate Machiavellian goal of enslaving all to do his bidding.
> 
> Mah ha ha ha


World domination is but a click away....










Be afraid, be very afraid.....


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Micky93 said:


> I'm no expert, but I have heard the odd reason here and there so I'll just spout what I've heard (although may be wrong!!)
> 
> I believe there is something to do with the fact that in packs, dogs who are higher up the pack chain will lead or scout ahead of the rest of the pack. Explain why they feel they can lead you rather than the other way round.
> 
> *Don't get me wrong, I could be way off the mark here*... and I have no idea if what I've been told is right to any extent but there you go. Someone wise and wonderful will come along in a minute and give you the right answer!


Yes, you are.



fortunesfool said:


> At the moment I feel like only by smearing myself in peanut butter would I be more interesting than anything.
> 
> With bodhi there are two very distinct moods, wandering-basically checking everything out and pulling-which is the group walking problem. I know there is a alot said against the pack theory but his pulling does come across like he just wants to be in front.


Try hanging a bag of treats to your waist on the same side as the dog. Something really tasty, like chicken pieces that he can smell and does not want to take his nose away from.

As already said by many, dogs pull because they can walk faster than us, because they want to get where they are going, or they want to investigate all the lovely smells. No other reason. Ferdie does not pull as such, but he does walk a hell of a lot faster than I do, so I have to keep slowing down in order to slow him down.



Halifu said:


> I must say I always thought that Dogs are a pack animal.
> That is how they live in the wild.
> The breeding pair are the alphas(or the DOMINANT ones, as a lot of people don't seem to like this word)and from what I've seen do have control over the rest of the Pack.
> We've always had a few dogs at a time & from watching them its clear to see there are leaders and followers.
> ...


You are confusing dogs with wolves.

There is no breeding pair of dogs that lead the rest of the pack. Dogs do not provide food for the others. Dogs do not stick to one mate and a male dog plays no part in creating a nest or rearing the pups.

This is wolf behaviour, not dog behaviour.

Dogs will fight over resources, they do not have one leader whom all the others defer to.


----------



## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

Dog's don't walk to heel because they aren't trained.
A trained dog will walk to heel on command.

It's like someone saying:
"Why don't dogs give me paw, roll over, sit straight in front of me and look me in the eye..." 
Because you've never trained the dog...


----------



## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Clicker training a heel with a 10 week old American Bulldog - YouTube
> 
> a 10-WO AmBull pup off-leash in a horse-training arena...


I met her before in California. She trains competition, ring sports, comp. ob, dock diving etc. - this is competition heeling, not to be confused with LOOSE-LEAD WALKING (FOR PET OWNERS).

My dog's learn both. Comp. heeling can only be sustained for 10-15+ minutes - not practical for daily pet life.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

edidasa said:


> ...this is competition heeling, not to be confused with LOOSE-LEAD WALKING (FOR PET OWNERS).


...that's why it's called "HEEL" in the video-title.  But thanks for clarifying. :thumbsup:


----------



## Guest (May 30, 2012)

What a FANTASTIC question to ask! Brilliant. 

Havnt read any other posts apart from OP so forgive if covering old ground. 

Well there are a number is reasons in different dogs in my experince. 

1 We give them no other option. For some owners for some reason, appear to feel that if you have a dog on a lead you must reel the lead in snhort and hold the dog against you. The dog fights back in a pulling battle, designed, I assume by the dog, tp preserve its airway.? Cant be sure though as Im not a dog, but that is hopw it appwars to me at times. This is a challenging one to change but perfectly achievable. 

2 We have taught them from puppies.... and I mean tiny puppies, that whereever they go,m we go. 

3. Our training has been lacking in some way.... they dont understand that a lose lead allows them freedom and comfort. 

4. That puling results in going where they want to go.... Lunging at lamposts to wee..... linging toward and jumping up or on other people is ok.... and rewarding.....

5. Because they dont knwo that heel is a cool place to hang out and is initslef both comfotable and rewarding....and the place from which you are most likely to get to enjoy all that comes your way. 

There will probavbly be things that cometo me later... but those seem the main things to me right nopw. 

its also worth rememering that dogs that are more highly aroused by their environent, through ectrememintelligence or super sensitivity, are also possibly the hardest to train, to do anything that is against their nature.... and there is no doubt that some dogs want to be in front. Thats all there is to it. So it is a fact that some dogs are MUCH much harder to teach than others with respect to pulling. So there are different reasons for different dogs. As in every other trainign and behavioural questioning or debate. In my view. 

Great question to ask. Am loving your enquiring mind!


----------



## Guest (May 30, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, you are.
> 
> Try hanging a bag of treats to your waist on the same side as the dog. Something really tasty, like chicken pieces that he can smell and does not want to take his nose away from.
> 
> ...


Ok. I have just re read the thread a little and forgive me for chosing this post... Im n ot picking on the poster, just picking up on the trend of the thread and adding my experince.

Current internet forum thinking appears to be swaying toward their being bo [pack structire in groups of dogs.

I understand where the thinking has come from and there is at least one studty whose findings report suvh,.

However, in the experince if every person trainer or owner I know whose dogs are required to WORK TOGETHER in some way on a regular basis, whether that be work as in herding,m hunting, por manipulateing,,, or just gettign along in a permanent or mostly permanent rgular group... ALL of those dogs show a definate structure alebeit commonly one whose form was changelable with time and experience. All of my personal dog groupings show or have shown such a structire. There are lots of people who say otherwise,. But Im not sure how much actual experince they have of groups of dogs.

Dogs do have leaders is my view. Soem groups are fearcly structured and managed.... other s are lose and flexible. As are the structures that work within humanity.

How many people do you defer to in some way> The police,m your pboss, your dgg in some ways, your partner, your friends, your more experinced companions??? At some point in your life? Dogs in my view are just then same.

If I let my adult dogs into the adolescant trainign paddock within a shprt space of time all of those dogs will defer in some way to ll of the adults. Its a fact. if they lived together as a group... all of the adolescants would defer to the older dogs in some way I am sure. THAT IS PACK STRUCTUIRE> though it may fluctuate wildly in different groups and at different times, there is DEFINtely some structure to most groups of dogs.

We have and do at times work groups of dogs to rehabilitate aggression cases. Each dog has a roll that is clear to us most of the time. But when one dog, or one role is missing ANOTHER DOG Will usually take its place in that role. That is how it is. There is aclear set of jobs to be done and the group respects each other abilites and compensates when one fo the group is missing. Its fascinating to watch.

I will now shut up I was ranting sorry.... I have strong views on this.... Its rare for me to have committed opinions.. But this is one of them. Sorry.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

So.. how about those *Pirates*, eh? Great game! 

and now, back to our regularly-scheduled programming...


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Teaching a dog to heel is great for walks, when someone is walking towards you or a parent with baby carriage is coming, these are the times I use it in daily walks, this is also when we practise sit and wait on the curb, the rest of the time they walk on a loose lead.....Obedience comp. is great to watch and I agree with L4L way different than your daily walks...


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Ok. I have just re read the thread a little and forgive me for chosing this post... Im n ot picking on the poster, just picking up on the trend of the thread and adding my experince.
> 
> Current internet forum thinking appears to be swaying toward their being bo [pack structire in groups of dogs.
> 
> ...


So do I. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but you seem to talking about dogs working as a team, not as a pack. This is a totally different thing. Sled dogs, so I have read, will have one or two stronger members of that team up front, the better trained perhaps to guide the others. But that is the only time he is in charge.

Given relaxation time, the others are not deferring to him at all. He is just one among many and if there are resources to fight over, he is not going to be given special attention by the other dogs.

If you observed a pack of fox hounds, hunting, I think you would find that they are all following the same trail. I haven't noticed one leader, going through gates first or standing up higher than the others. They are still working in a team but independently.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> If you observed a pack of fox hounds, hunting, I think you would find that they are all following the same trail.
> I haven't noticed one leader, going through gates first or standing up higher than the others.
> They are still working in a team, but independently.


yes - 
this is *activity-driven* social behavior, & as soon as the shared activity ceases [the fox is run to earth, 
the cougar is treed, the sheep-flock is in the barn...], the cohesive behaviors evaporate, & the dogs all 
go back to doing their own thing, under the handler's direction.

dogs who jump into a squabble on the side of THEIR human, THEIR k9-housemate, etc, are also 
not acting as a 'pack', but reacting as family-members do to a threat to another family-member - 
again, social behavior toward familiar individuals, not a 'pack' with patterns of social-rank, which BTW 
is also true of wild wolves: young wolves defer to their parents, the breeding pair, just as human-kids defer 
to their parents while they live at home - & for much the same reason, the young are dependent & need 
the teaching, food, shelter, social-support, etc, provided by mum & dad [4-footed or 2-footed].

BTW, over time, scenthounds also learn who are reliable trackers, & who are over-excitable yobs who go 
yammering across country after a deer, or follow 2-day old tracks that cross the current spoor, etc.  
they will listen selectively, & respond only to those dogs that have "told the truth" in the past. :thumbsup:


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

It appears that there is some question of symantics in the last few threads. 

Taken to its extreme, when a group of dogs are all asleep.... there is no pack dynamic. The nearest thing to leader will be perhaps be the one who is least asleep and most likely to wake if something happens, the ears of the group. 

Where there is a task to accomplish, the most accomplished in the required skill set will accomplish more than the others (assuming that they are sufficiently motivated to get up and do something). And for that time it cann be said that that dog or those dogs are leasders amongst those tasks. Physival attributes too will add structure to a group (the taller dogs will be able to gain access to higher things for instance). 

I am fasinated by your experinces though. Can I ask how many packs of dogs you have lived and worked with personally????? And what where you fiundings whilst with them? 

I am always pleased to hear about and or take on board new Direct experience, especailly if it is contrary to my own.


----------

