# Advice for Border Collie 10 week old pup owner



## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I hear so much conflicting information, got her last week from a actual farm, it was all professional they gave me a phone call when I was interested to discuss and ask if I knew about the breed, gave me paperwork and vaccination record and took my name and address.

Shes as great as can be but I am still a little confused over routine and first steps.

Her toilet training is ok but she tends to often do wees at edge of a pad and so my floor gets a little wet, she does go outside but tends to more often just play outside and do a small wee then come straight indoors and go on the mat.

When its dark out she plays ok but doesn't want to do her business.

I can often tell when she needs to go as she gets very energetic and may even make sounds and runs around but I take her out and even after 20 minutes she does nothing.

Chewing she does too and that I can somewhat handle.

Also I took her on a few walks as this stops her being so energetic but I was told by someone who had a dog that as shes not had 2nd vaccination yet I should wait, is this best advice? I normally just walk her about 5/10 minutes around my home mostly on the road to stop her being so full of energy, I of course give her enough attention but not showering her with affection (but when I do I tell her good girl)

Also she has decided my darker sofa in corner is her spot for her business (unless its a small wee which she does anywhere)


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Sorry she just jumped and knocked post! 

I was unsure feeding amounts and how often, I think I may be overfeeding her as I grab a small handfood of dry dog food and in the 30 or so minutes before each feeding she gets really restless, today I took her into garden for 20 minutes then she instantly went into kitchen and to her bowl and started barking.

I have times for 9.30am 1.30pm and 5.30p, of course her energy spikes around these times.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Some people walk before second vaccination others don’t it’s a bit risk vs socialisation. You have a baby Collie the crazy over energetic fun will only 


Toilet training she’s only a baby it will come take her out regularly when she goes praise her. Puppy pads can be confusing personally I’d ditch them.

I normally feed pups 4 times daily. I’ve never really measured food. 

PS we insist on puppy photos.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

She should be on 4 meals a day currently, so split her meals into four and give the fourth one in the evening.

Have you owned dogs before as you don’t seem to know what your doing? I’m not being mean but you have taken on a breed who can be hard work especially a farm bred dog


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Not owned a dog by myself but was raised with 1 whom I woke up early (often 7am) to take her on walks and walked her up to 4 times a day, it was just we got them when they were already a year old, they were border collies too and I am aware of their habits as an adult it was just the puppy part that I have no experience with.

I know for adult dogs 2 meals a day were best and spent a white looking at various sites online but many were conflicting information, and I have colleages who raised dogs, one did say dogs are hard work.

I just didn't want to over or under stimulate her, or over or under feed her.

Originally I was going to get a rescue dog and was accepted for one but I was in the process of moving and didn't want to cause distress for the pup and right now there isn't any dogs that would be suitable for me (not that I wouldn't want them but they have additonal needs so the rescue homes are strict on who gets them)


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I'd suggest you start by getting rid of the puppy pads. They just give mixed messages about whether indoor toileting is allowed or not.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so.

Ideally you want her to not be in a position where she needs to toilet before you have her outdoors, so that every toilet is outside - as far as possible, there will be accidents! So set her up to succeed by taking her out even more than she needs; for example every 45 minutes to an hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing.

The time between a puppy realising they need to toilet, and being unable to hold that toilet, is zero. So your aim is to have her outside before she can't help herself. When she toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward her with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make her come to you for the treat so she is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that she wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until she is outside - once she is physically able to control her toileting obviously. As she is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words she can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when she is reliably trained you can use these to tell her when you want her to toilet.

If you take her out and she doesn't toilet after five minutes, bring her in but don't take your eyes off her. Any hint of a toilet inside, scoop her up and get her out fast. If she doesn't try to toilet indoors (great!) take her out a second time and repeat until you do get outside toilets. You need the outside toilet to happen SO that you can reward SO that she learns.
If she has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed she may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if she needs to toilet (by going off and toileting out of sight) - the opposite of what you want. Dogs cant make the distinction between you being annoyed at them TOILETING, as opposed to toileting INDOORS. Take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head for not having taken her outside in time. Not when she is there though in case you scare her. Then clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell that might attract her back to the spot.

Indoors if you see her circling or scratching the floor, that can sometimes precede toileting so get her out fast.

Overnight she is unlikely to be able to control her toilet as her little bladder and bowel are underdeveloped and not strong enough to hold all night so set your alarm to take her out at least once if not twice during the night.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

i think you would benefit from a good book of puppyhood something like ‘The Perfect Puppy’, there are several others. The book can be downloaded if you want it straightaway. It will take you through from a first born pup, development stages, feeding, training etc, right up to 12 months. Its a good book for hand holding for new puppy owners.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, I was getting conflicting information online.

What I notice is when she does go, its around 10 minutes after she goes out, so I wait a few more minutes to try and make her not think shes being punished for doing it,

I call her and say good girl when she does business or attempts to.

Shes actually great overnight and normally can hold it in long enough in morning, in fact her morning seems ok its after lunchtime she gets worse, and by about 8pm at night shes so restless I think she is wanting to sleep but I want to stay awake to 10pm or 11pm as I don't want to get her into the routine of waking at say 6am (I am aware as a farm dog she will be aware of that so if she does make sounds during night I rush her outside)

First night with her, she went straight to sleep at 11pm, heard her wake around 6.45, waited a few minutes and as she awoke she went on pad and then followed me outside, she did do the rest of her business, as I was awake I took her out again at 7.30, 8.30, and after breakfast at 9.30 she didn't do much then, and again at 11, (as by time I took her in it was 10am previous time) she did some business and then about 11.30 randomly without warning did it again, so I rushed her straight outside, I have been alternating times to try and catch her schedule.

2nd night she slept right through to 8.am with me and no mess and did her business outside so I thought great, then had a few accidents during day mostly around 11am so that seems to be one of her main times (or just that she goes a lot in morning)

However each night close to bedtime she does a poop.

3rd night she slept till 9am and I took her right outside (yes I know I am splitting her routine but I am trying to get her used to slightly later slots and wake early for her especially if needed) 

4th night I heard her pacing around 5am so took her outside and she did the business, as I was sleepy I stupidly went back to bed and she jumped beside me and I let her till I woke for work at 8am (I work from home)

5th night she kept jumping to side of my bed and crying and howling until after 20 minutes I let her up and she instantly slept and slept all night to 8am

She has been a little worse today but thats likely as I work from home shes confused. I am thinking of taking next week off to give more time to her (I work 2 days per week)

Basically I had a plan in my head and though I knew things could not be predicted I wanted to have everything I could in place to prepare!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

She needs four feeds a day at this age.

I would add in another feed for 8.30 p.m.


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## golfchick (Mar 18, 2010)

> I call her and say good girl when she does business or attempts to.


By calling her and then saying good girl, all you're doing is rewarding her for coming back over to you. Not for the actual act of toiletting. You should be right next to her when she wee's so you can praise her immediately. 

I would 1 million percent recommend getting a puppy book to help you. I have to say I'm honestly quite shocked by your lack of knowledge and the fact you've then taken on a border collie from a working farm. I don't want to come across as harsh but you've taken on a very challenging breed with no experience. Having border collies in the family when you were younger doesn't count.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well its harsh but to be expected, I knew it wouldn't be easy thats why I wanted advice, I knew toilet training would be difficult, I knew they are high energy/maintenace dogs and what I meant by having a dog in family when younger was I got to experience things like their routine, walking them, feeding them etc.

At most in adulthood I have looked after the family dog for a few days or a week or so at time. but that was an adult collie (and when that died their 2nd collie)


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The fact that you're here asking for advice says that you are trying to do everything right for your puppy.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Just going to bed, for past 2 hours I have been taking her out, I now stand next to her and this meant she didn't want to play as much but seemed more obedient, but when indoors had energy and jumped at scratched at door a few times, took her back out, repeat then all of a sudden a few minutes ago she does her business on the pad and relaxes.

So she wanted to go but didn't do so,

I will take the advice onboard given so far.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When you take her out to wee, try putting her on a lead.

She will be less inclined to play/sniff and more likely to get on with it.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

If she seems to be wanting to use the pad then take a used pad outside to encourage her to use it outside. Reduce the size of the pad to very little piece over time so she is happily toileting outside rather then indoors.
When she has toileted, let her off the lead and have a short play with her. Hopefully she will then perform quickly so she can have the playtime


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks for all advice so far


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Also, when she toilets somewhere inside make sure you are cleaning it with an enzyme cleaner, such as Simple Solution, otherwise she will still be able to smell it, even if you can't, and it will encourage her to go there again.

Puppies generally need a lot of sleep, around 20 hours a day I think, so if she is wanting to sleep then I would let her.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, I didn't get enzyme cleaner at first but have some arriving today.

Today she is mostly napping, I took her for a walk around garden first thing rather than just let her play and this seems to have helped.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Hi there, I found a well recommended (and has the proper qualifcations) dog trainer in the area and we had a good chat about her needs, she did say don't use puppy pads, told me to keep her on lead as Rafa said earlier


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

It can be harder this time of year as it’s a bit chilly. I used to struggle to get Loki outside for his evening wee. It will come.


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## Soph x (9 mo ago)

She’s only a puppy so you do have to be really patient unfortunately, and to be honest, you’ve not picked the easiest dog breed to work with.

My mum’s Collie chewed anything wooden, cardboard etc. until she was around a year old.
My Collie has never chewed, but still to this day I can’t get her out the habit of eating random things, again, like cardboard etc and she’s now 6 years old!

With the toilet training make sure you praise her while she’s doing her business. Dogs are very much a ‘live in the moment’ animal, so you have to get the praise timed right to make sure you don’t praise the wrong behaviour e.g. the playtime after her business.

Do definitely recommend a dog trainer to help if you’ve not a lot of experience with dogs, especially a collie. Hell, I’ve had dogs my whole life and my last one was a rescue from Portugal, however, there are times I struggle with Goose still!

As well as walking for exercise, make sure you provide plenty of mental stimulation. Collie’s aren’t referred to one of the smartest, if not the smartest, dog breeds for no reason. Get some biscuits and scatter them across a rug or even get a snuffle mat. Then when she’s older, can introduce things like puzzle boards etc. and maybe even other training like agility. Collies are typically amazing with agility and pick it up quite easy.

It may sound like we’re trying to put you off, but definitely not! If you’re patient with her, she will honestly become one of the biggest, smartest goofballs you’ll ever know.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, well as expected shes like a toddler, its more getting her to relax that is the biggest issue which I fully expected, like she will nap then gives signs of wanting to do her business bark, run around, nibble my fingers or anything else around and even sit by the door or jump at it, so I take her out and she does nothing and repeat until she decides to go indoors at which point she just relaxes again.

What the trainer said was drop treats outside and she will associate outside with good things as well as keep her on lead.

Also I put some of the enzyme cleaner on first thing this morning (I forgot to do last night) and already she went up there to do her business and instantly decided to go in the puppy pad in corner instead.

Quick final question, she did partially wee on cushion covers, it didn't soak through so shall I just wash them as normal don't want her associating them with her business too and I notice my cleaner says it can be used in washing machine.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Puppy pads are really not a good idea - she will think toileting indoors is ok and if/when you take them away she will look for something similar, like your duvet, to toilet on. Please look back at earlier posts re toilet training.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

ryouga said:


> Thanks, well as expected shes like a toddler, its more getting her to relax that is the biggest issue which I fully expected, like she will nap then gives signs of wanting to do her business bark, run around, nibble my fingers or anything else around and even sit by the door or jump at it, so I take her out and she does nothing and repeat until she decides to go indoors at which point she just relaxes again.
> 
> What the trainer said was drop treats outside and she will associate outside with good things as well as keep her on lead.
> 
> ...


I would get rid of the puppy pads. Otherwise you are going to have to toilet train her twice. 

And yes, I would wash anything she has weed on with the enzymatic cleaner.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, yes I just wasn't sure about just taking them away instantly as it would confuse her hence me checking.

But was also aware the longer I leave it, the tougher it will be!

She did go twice today when out then third time she did a wee but nothing else came back in and she did the other

EDIT - I notice she is more excited in evening around about the time I put on my lights, I have bright led lights in my home so could this cause a problem, I just assumed it was her overtired.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

This is turning into a mini blog! So yesterday she had her vaccine and was a little sleepy until about 5pm when I gave her food and took her out and was energetic until evening.

Today she has been sooo sleepy all day, she did have an accident during night but that was my fault as she jumped on bed and nipped my feet and then came up and lay beside me then jumped off I thouight she just wanted attention, then a few minutes later she barked twice and I woke to see she pooped on her mats (I still keep them in bedroom just in case)

In morning she was sluggish and I noticed her slowly walking towards the corner sofa so I quickly scooped her up took her outside and she did business twice, I then took her back in and she slept until breakfast, she didn't do business afterwards but I took her out again 30 minutes later and she did both again, then a hour later and she did both again, and was very alert in that she stayed by my feet the whole time even without a lead.

Shes now playing with a toy but not full of beans as usual which I guess is normal after her injection.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Another thing you can do to help is, when she toilets, put words to it. You use the term does her business, so you saying do your business should come naturally. I say 'go biz' to my dogs. Once she's associated the words with the action, you can use them as a cue to get her to think about and act on - the beginning of toileting on command which is very useful.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks I was thinking that, anyway small updates, Friday was great all day bar the evening and I eventually took her to bed at 10pm as she was restless and wouldn't stop running around and spent from 8pm-10pm almost entirely in garden, she did wake me up at 1.30am to go out and then was quiet the rest of night, yesterday she wasn't that bad again and was a little less restless in evening but still somewhat energetic (so basically she gets more "energy" as the day goes on)

She isn't having many "accidents" anymore due to her napping more and when she wakes or its time for her feed I take her straight out, also I have stopped feeding her treats and since then she has been less thirsty and wanting to go as much, she was restless at bedtime so I let her sleep beside me and she slept until 4am until she pestered me to go out, did some business then slept till 9am when I woke and even then I had enough time to get changed and bathroom break myself and she went outside and no bother doing her business. she did a small wee just there after I last took her out at 11.30 and was about to take her back out.

I would like to confirm, was giving her a lot of treats making her more thirsty and go more as well as being more restless,

She likes to nap more now and if I hold her she happily sleeps most of day but of course I have things to do.


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## Soph x (9 mo ago)

Burrowzig said:


> the beginning of toileting on command which is very useful.


SO useful!
Goose’s word is “weewee” to make her do her business, and honestly one of the best things to teach your dog! Especially when you know you won’t be able to let them out for a while e.g. long car journey, can get them to go during a food break or something!

Makes me laugh bc sometimes I’ll give the command and she’ll squat but guessing she’s not expecting to pee. Then she starts peeing and she just stares at her back end and then me like “HOW DID YOU KNOW I NEEDED THAT!?” 😂


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Hi, I was really worried about today as I had to go to office and friend had to look after her (hes met her twice already, he was one who gave me lift to get her and spent a hour in house with her after and 4 hours on Thursday when we went to vet) because I had to leave her for about 30 minutes before friend arrived, she did whinge a few times and I felt so awful,

On the way to work I realised I left work things at home so came back just about the 30 minute mark and she was fine, she was silent but didn't react distressed or even running towards me and wagged her tail and I gave her a cuddle and 3 tiny treats (basically dog biscuits) Friend turned up a few minutes later and she was wagging her tail at him, friend gave me a lift to work so I wasn't too late (work was ok with me being late as I told them in advance) but she was really anxious in the car (I had her in a dog travel bag) making whining sounds and rolling a bit, drive to work was under 10 minutes and she relaxed a little when I had my hand on her but still not great, when I got to work friend put soothing music on and she calmed down,

I don't know if was her being really upset at me and the situation or just felt I was leaving her again, but on the way home friend rang to say he had to leave early so she was alone about 30 minutes, this time she was fine, looked like she just slept, and she reacted fine with me, not overly affectionate but wagging her tail and wanted a cuddle.

I did take her out a few minutes later and notice she did the biggest "doggy business" I have ever seen her do but it was soft and yellow coloured. and afterwards drank a ton of water though that may of just being coincidences.

I guess its ok, but just wanted to know from others leaving her alone for those time periods and her being quiet and not barking (Except for first few minutes) is ok, I don't want to torment her.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Hi, she had a bad tummy last night, caught her as I was getting ready for bed rubbing her bum in a circle and began her business she was good though and held it when i picked her up till she was on the grass.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Yesterday she was back to not going much, I fed her at 9.30am 1.30 she eventually did it at 5pm and at 5.30 I gave her food and I was so exhausted I had a nap at 7pm and woke at 9 to find she had done it on the mat, I don't blame her its actually good as it means she has a routine now and a time I can narrow down.

Today though she didn't do it again and I took her out mulltiple times, then just after 1 I had a guest round and noticed she did it on the (blanket on the ) sofa so she must of wanted to go.

Luckily the guest is a experienced dog owner so they have been great with her, calming her when she wanted attention and telling her "no" when she was begging for our dinner after she had her own.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Yesterday she was ok most of the day until evening again I think as said before the rain disturbs her, she did her business in afternoon and was fine but after that except a few wees which I caught her in time she refused to do a number 2, took her to bed at 10.30 and at midnight she decided to go on the mat so I took her outside and she did nothing, and again about 5am I took her out for a wee, not as she asked but I was needing to use the facilities myself and she did a wee and then did her full business at 8am when I woke and again about 11am, 

Took her on her first trip on bus today in a carrier, she made a few small whines on the 10 minute journey but once she was in town and saw the sights of passers by she was absorbed and then got a lot of attention from passers by.

And bus journey home she was silent and just slept, got her home and took her in garden and she was excited and wanted to play.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

ryouga said:


> Yesterday she was ok most of the day until evening again I think as said before the rain disturbs her, she did her business in afternoon and was fine but after that except a few wees which I caught her in time she refused to do a number 2, took her to bed at 10.30 and at midnight she decided to go on the mat so I took her outside and she did nothing, and again about 5am I took her out for a wee, not as she asked but I was needing to use the facilities myself and she did a wee and then did her full business at 8am when I woke and again about 11am,
> 
> Took her on her first trip on bus today in a carrier, she made a few small whines on the 10 minute journey but once she was in town and saw the sights of passers by she was absorbed and then got a lot of attention from passers by.
> 
> And bus journey home she was silent and just slept, got her home and took her in garden and she was excited and wanted to play.


Lots of pups aren’t keen on the rain my two would rather hold it for 12 hours! I bet she enjoyed the bus I used to do that with my two.

We must have puppy pics.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

She has regressed a bit in her toilet training, still goes in morning no problem but having more accidents in evening, I think that was as I had a relative stay for 2 nights, the funny thing is she was great with relative going on command almost and doing large amounts rather than want to play when I take her in garden (unless she needs to go there and then)

Apart from that shes ok, she barks at her feed time and nips my feet when shes excited if I don't wear slippers or shoes but the chewing has lowered and 9 times out of 10 she just wants to sleep in my arms, I worry though that she will get too clingy though if I do too much.

However I have started with the ignore when she barks and turn my head, this seems to be working more however its hard the times when instead she then runs off and tries chewing something as she hasn't got my attention.

Took her on a few walks locally for 15-20 minutes and she is starting to do her business on walks, well mostly wees but did do the other one on a walk and today she didn't do any of number 2 (apart from when she woke) until I took her for a walk at 5pm and even then she waited until she got into garden.

I bought one of those chew bones pack, one where it starts with a brown one, and then a blue one I think and then a white one, im not sure if its that but she is beginning to hold her attention with toys a little longer, i.e before it would be seconds with a toy now its a minute or so before she loses interest and with her bone it can be longer.

She has reached stage where she jumps on the edge of sofa and notices things on tables, she jumped on end of sofa yesterday and looked out of window and barked!

She sleeps most of the day but the times when shes alert she likes to get over exicited, if I hold her she tries to bite my neck if I hold her near it. I pull her away when she does. Thats the only real negative though its often my own fault as I like to play with her when holding her.

When we are in garden and she wants to play she bites the lead and when I go to pick her up to take her back in she tries to nip me playfully but the second shes in arms she relaxes again.

Shes in my bed most nights now even if I don't let her, I fall asleep and in middle of night she sneaks in and either sleeps between my legs or against my thigh, and if my hand is my my side she lifts it and snuggles under it.

Will get pics eventually but right now I mostly have pics of her just sleeping as its hard to take a pic when shes full of energy!


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Enjoying the updates, sounds like she's making good progress 😊


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

So its been an interesting 2 days, I ran out of the food I got from the farmer when I got her and changed to another dried puppy food, she didn't go to number 2 all day yesterday after that and no surprise she did it on her bedroom pad during night, and a small one when she woke, another about another after her breakfast feed and a small one around 3pm, A friend turned up as we wanted to take her to a trip to the park and she was very excited. on way back we parked for food and sat next to window so we could see car, she did initially bark and jump at window but nothing after, when we got back to car she was lying next to a large poop, she must of been anxious but yesterday when she was in car no accidents.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Took her on bus on my lap yesterday, she was ok but whining a little when people walked past her and didn't give her attention, on way back there was a HUGE old dog on bus and she didn't care.

The bus driver fussed over her as did a few passengers, when I got to town I walked for a few minutes with her and kept getting stopped by passers by wanting to pet her and talk about their own dogs.

I wouldn't leave her normally but I tied her up at the door of butchers to get my weekly shop and she was distressed so butcher came out and gave her some meat and attention and she was calm, I was only away from her for 2 or 3 minutes and a few feet from her and in eyeshot.

Again yesterday she only did a small poopy in morning and no more all day, and surprisingly went all night again, she strangely is a good sleeper and can seem to hold it in better than I thought. today she did 3 in morning and a tiny one about 30 minutes ago and no more yet, her wees are all ok though, can't give exact estimate but if I see her drink water and take her out 45 minutes later she goes, if I take her out a hour after she goes.

She has slightly more attention for her toys each day, each time she loses interest I just shake it and throw it on sofa and she plays more.

The rest of the time she happily just sleeps on me.

I worked out her feet nipping at bedtime she bites until I walk towards my bed and must be telling me its bedtime,

A few days ago I decided to sit on floor in front of her bed and she slept almost instantly and peacefully, she must just like to have me near her when sleeping.

EDIT = Any ideas on how to keep her away from that corner she likes to do her business on one of my sofas? she doesn't do it in any other part of room and even if I catch her in time she has had the odd accident which I clean with simple solution.

I don't know if its a sofa that is easy to sink into I mean any human sitting on it almost sinks their behind into so it must be comfy for a pet.

And outside of using treats how can I get her to use her bed in the living room, rather than just jump between sofas or on me? I don't want to use treats unless I have to as they seem to make her too hyper and poop a lot.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

ryouga said:


> Took her on bus on my lap yesterday, she was ok but whining a little when people walked past her and didn't give her attention, on way back there was a HUGE old dog on bus and she didn't care.
> 
> The bus driver fussed over her as did a few passengers, when I got to town I walked for a few minutes with her and kept getting stopped by passers by wanting to pet her and talk about their own dogs.
> 
> ...


Does she have kibble ? You can use her normal food as treats if your worried about giving to many. You need to teach her to settle on her bed. Someone has a good video on this. Is it you @JoanneF ? 

As a side note never tie your dog up outside a shop especially a puppy anything can happen.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

This one?






Or maybe this one -


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks yeah I knew it wasn't a great idea to tie up puppy I was worried the entire time I just hoped it would get her more used to being seperated, won't happen again.

Instead today I went to town for a hour, she barked for I don't know how long but by time I was out the door I couldn't hear it, came home and she was calm and didn't instantly run up to me but was happy to see me, I did give her attention but didn't cuddle her until I unpacked shopping.

She had a very good day with doing her business too.

Interesting too, is a hour ago I accidently turned my cooker on (small kitchen) and knocked something onto the hob without noticing (in future I will turn off at main switch for this reason) was in living room a few minutes and fire alarms went off, she didn't even panic or react or at least not indicated, The alarms took about 30 minutes to stop randomly going off (as had to open all the windows) I did go into kitchen once myself and when I came back I didn't notice her so called her name and she cutely jumped on side of armchair, a perfect photo if I had my phone there!

She was tired from a walk today too, and for first time is sleeping at my feet whilst I am sitting in my armchair.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Good few days with her, apart from last night when it was heavy wind/stormy weather and she did her number 2's inside but I don't blame her for that as it must be scary for her, she had her training Tuesday and shes responding well she already has learned to sit even without treats and is starting to get used to "leave it" but my meal times are still a bit of a pain.

Around 10pm each night no matter what be it shes running around or sleeping on me she goes in front of me and just curls up near my feet, shes getting more playful and at stage she loves jumping on furniture, I have to be careful as she likes to jump on edge of sofa and theres a small deskside tablet next to it and that is against the window and shes looking out of the window.

Shes starting running around now more than chew things and plays with her toys more but she tries to jump from sofa to my armchair so she might fall so I have moved it closer to the sofa just in case.

She still can get very overexcited and bitey such as in evening and bedtimes and if shes playing in garden, basically if I try and hug her she rolls in my arms and bites then calms down almost straight away not that she would intentionally harm me but she will need to learn.

Have successfully left her alone twice in past few days, would of just been once but I forgot I needed to hand in an important document and I needed puppy food at same time (well they could of lasted a few days but didn't want to leave until last minute) 1st time she barked as I went out but when I came back she was silent and though she was happy to see me she didn't get overexcited, 2nd time she barked when she heard me come in door and was a little more excited to see me but again not overwhelming both times I just ignored her until I unpacked bags.

Trainer said shes a very confident dog and shes so far good around cars, and people i.e not distracted much and has a good temperment.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

ryouga said:


> Good few days with her, apart from last night when it was heavy wind/stormy weather and she did her number 2's inside but I don't blame her for that as it must be scary for her, she had her training Tuesday and shes responding well she already has learned to sit even without treats and is starting to get used to "leave it" but my meal times are still a bit of a pain.
> 
> Around 10pm each night no matter what be it shes running around or sleeping on me she goes in front of me and just curls up near my feet, shes getting more playful and at stage she loves jumping on furniture, I have to be careful as she likes to jump on edge of sofa and theres a small deskside tablet next to it and that is against the window and shes looking out of the window.
> 
> ...


Evenings are known as the witching hour! It does pass. Loki refused to go out last night lucky he has a bladder of steel.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Evenings are definitely when puppies come alive the most! Rufus was a little terror in the evenings when he was a pup. Now he just sees evenings as play time 😅


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well I may as well update about myself, I have been getting healthier it seems as I gained a lot of weight during the past 2 and a half years due to lockdowns and diet got worse due to it, I moved home 3 months ago from a large 2 bedroom flat in a bad area to a small but amazing 1 bedroom flat in a better (but still has issues) area which is right next to a large park and I have great neighbours who don't mind noise and the week after I got pup they asked me how much she cost as they wanted another dog (they had ones years ago apparantly) I have apologised for pup waking early and barking before bed and they are fine with it.

I have lost weight in last 2 months as bought a t shirt and shirt a few months ago that showed my gut before and now fit me and even a little baggy, and my trousers are much looser.

I am nowhere near as drained when I wake between 7-9 each day now and my skin has cleared up and so has my allergies for some reason, I used to have a very stuffy nose and itchy eyes and now have neither.

And at least pup has finally got to point shes calming more even at evening and I can take her outside less often so I have free time, honestly up until last few days I haven't gamed since before I got her, and even typing posts on the internet like this I often did with her sleeping/lying on one arm and typing with the other hand and often dropping mouse onto floor.

Right now shes sleeping on my toes after playing with her toys for about 20 minutes, shame I need to get up and get a drink.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

ryouga said:


> Well I may as well update about myself, I have been getting healthier it seems as I gained a lot of weight during the past 2 and a half years due to lockdowns and diet got worse due to it, I moved home 3 months ago from a large 2 bedroom flat in a bad area to a small but amazing 1 bedroom flat in a better (but still has issues) area which is right next to a large park and I have great neighbours who don't mind noise and the week after I got pup they asked me how much she cost as they wanted another dog (they had ones years ago apparantly) I have apologised for pup waking early and barking before bed and they are fine with it.
> 
> I have lost weight in last 2 months as bought a t shirt and shirt a few months ago that showed my gut before and now fit me and even a little baggy, and my trousers are much looser.
> 
> ...


Sounds like she is good for you.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Phew, off to bed late, shes regressed a little again in her toilet training doing it inside again in evening and earlier she did a big pee on sofa even though I took her out just before and she already did one and I had no time to react.

Apart from that shes basically ok, still difficult to eat around her as she jumps on me and tries eating food off my plate even my fork and if I stand she instead barks at me.

I don't totally blame her for the accidents today as of course there was a lot of noise due to fireworks around for about 3 hours, she wasn't afraid of the noise but it affected her naps,

Her nipping is getting better shes using less force she gets overexcited less too and I left her in house for over 2 hours today, not intentional again but I needed to get weekly budget food shop as its only 1 day a week they have bargains and there was a road closed so it took over a hour to do a normal 15 minute journey, then queues in shop and just missed a bus back. I asked neighbour who said he heard no barking and when I came in I said hello to her but otherwise just put bags on side and put food away, but as her dinner was now late I gave her that.

What I have noticed, is that I bought one of those plug ins that are meant to relax dogs but she seems to bark more when its on, I tried it in living room last week and she was barking the whole time, and relaxed after I turned it off, I had it on both times I went out before this and she was barking when I left.

Shes still reacting to the "sit" command very good, and shes not bad at "leave it" when I am training her but ignores that when she is in garden or I am eating.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Sounds as if she’s doing as well as you can expect for a youngster.

For the issues while you’re eating, you could train her to go to a mat, or her bed, and stay there. Train first with no distractions so she really gets it.

I’m not sure if ‘leave it’ is the most appropriate for when you’re eating; from her point of view ‘leave what?’. You? The table/sofa? The food?

And what to do after you ‘leave it’ ? I would guess that in training she comes to you for a treat, so she’s not going to go away when you tell her to leave you eating, if that makes sense.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

We tend to give Rufus his dinner while we have our dinner so he isn't focused on our food. Can she eat at the same time as you? Do you have a table you can sit at so she can't get to you?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well I am still hand feeding her but not sure if I need to now it was just to stop her biting as much when she has tantrums and the times I did feed her in bowl when I first got her that was what I did.

She also now has a habit if I open fridge door to lick the trays as one time I spilled milk on it even though its clean now.

I am pacing out her toilet breaks now which means she has gotten worse and doing more mistakes indoors, not that I aren't taking her out but shes just so random, and as said before the evening in worse.

Shes getting quite vocal when wanting attention so I try and ignore her and that is when she tries to nip.

Was working from home on telephones today, until lunchtime was easy as she just slept beside me and I had my hand under her paw so she was comfortable and I could still type, after lunchtime she got more vocal even though I took her for a 20 minute walk unless I overtired her.

Trying to lie down on mat is where I am at with training now, but she rarely lies down when I try and train her, so far sit was a very easy command to learn but everything else she just gets too excited.

Shes still great sleeping at night, she goes most of the night and only wants to go if shes disturbed during night i.e shes sleeping on my bed and I turn and the movement of the sheets wakes her but taking her outside to do her business shes ready to go back to sleep instantly.

I wonder also I think I said early on is about lighting, shes fine in daytime and if I don't turn light on in evening, when I do so she gets alert so I don't know if the light is affecting her, I use led bulbs but the more powerful ones.

Also she hardly ever does her number 2's after about lunchtime (or if she does its indoors) I don't know if I should change her feeding times due to this as her last feed is at 5.30 and she may do a small one in evening and wake during night but otherwise hold it in ok and make it a bit later.


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## tristy (5 mo ago)

basically , if you train a dog to go on paper / pads , you then have to re-train it to go outside. It takes a lot of time on your part to train the dog, but worth it in the long run, good luck.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

So since yesterday she has had a lot of tantrums all I can thinks is I take her out on my lunch break for a 20-30 minute walk (thats total time so includes a few minutes in garden and includes her stopping and sniffing)

Around 7.30pm she just jumped on sofa and fell asleep until I accidently knocked over my computer mouse and she woke and wanted attention but was in a better mood.

Today I took her out for a walk again and she was a bit better but after work I was a bit rough feeling so went for my own nap and woke up about a hour ago and shes much calmer now so I guess supports the overtired idea.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Shes still having tantrums but as I wasn't working today I had more time to care for her and she was more relaxed except when having her tantrums and had no accidents, She is now making minor whine like sounds if she needs to go out or to drink water so thats a bonus and standing by the door more so shes learning.

I also sprayed some vinegar on the corner of sofa where she keeps going and she hasn't done the business there since and that seems to have helped, she will sit there if she wants to relax though

I also washed her blankets she has done business on before and put vinegar in the washing machine.

Shes got a new bad habit now though that if I wear socks she bites them and tries to pull them off.

She is still reacting well to training, at least when theres treats involved she sits, lies down and gets up/down off the sofa on command most times now.

Still her tantrums are bad as she is very bitey and it hurts, is there a way I can protect myself from them as if I can ignore them she calms down but if shes biting my neck, hands or feet I can't protect myself so have to pull away and that encourages her more, if I can reach her face I cover her eyes and if I can't avoid her teeth I very gently hold mouth for a few seconds and this always calms her down though it feels cruel. I don't know if she has suddenly become anxious as most times she snaps is when I pick her up, I don't know if I am hurting her, and most times she does is also when I do it when she can't see me.

She has only started doing this since I leave her alone 1-2 times a week so she may be anxious because of that but she doesn't howl or bark when I come back but she is happy.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Why are you picking her up? A lot of dogs don't like this and have to be taught that it's okay. 

Puppy biting is completely normal. Just redirect her to something appropriate for her to bite and chew on, such a a toy or chew.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I pick her up to take her outside or take her indoors mostly, or if she attempts to do business inside, or if she refuses to leave a room (mostly kitchen) or at bedtime as she likes to bite my feet or if someone is at door as otherwise she tries to run through the door and down to stairs (and out the door if I open it) so for safety also even if I do manage to stop her getting out living room door she barks a lot.

Any other time which is rare is such times like she jumps on me and runs around room or she tries jumping onto windowcil so I pick her up for her own safety.

She rarely nips in morning its in afternoons and a lot in evening when shes overtired.

Picking her up just seems to be the main thing, If I go to pet her she trys to play bite me if shes overexcited, I think its mostly playing or her upset I have stopped her playing

Anyway tonight shes been strange, no accidents but has gone to door sometimes and jumped at it, for me to take her outside and she does nothing.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

ryouga said:


> I pick her up to take her outside or take her indoors mostly, or if she attempts to do business inside, or if she refuses to leave a room (mostly kitchen) or at bedtime as she likes to bite my feet or if someone is at door as otherwise she tries to run through the door and down to stairs (and out the door if I open it) so for safety also even if I do manage to stop her getting out living room door she barks a lot.
> 
> Any other time which is rare is such times like she jumps on me and runs around room or she tries jumping onto windowcil so I pick her up for her own safety.
> 
> ...


That is a lot of picking up! You won't be able to do that as she grows. Can she not walk outside/inside herself? Lure her where you want her to go by throwing a treat or a toy, or call her name, make excited noises, etc. Puppies generally like to follow you anyway!


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I expect somebody has already said this but put a light house lead on her so that you can guide her to/from where you want her to be. Then reward her for doing right, even though you ‘made’ her do it.

There will come a time, anyway, that she’s too big to pick up, so you may as well start now working out how you’re going to control her.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, yeah I did that the first few days with her or I basically sat down with lead in one hand so she couldn't go far.

The reason I pick her up to go out/in is I heard letting dogs especially puppies go up and down stairs is bad for their muscles especially multiple times a day so I do it for safety, 

I also notice I think I must be picking her up wrong now shes grown, she seems to have no issue with me picking her up if I do it under her front paws but anywhere near her ribs she gets a bit more restless.

Also I do this especially work days to stop her from running about and in case I can't reach her in time when shes doing her business.

Today I let her just run about for about 10 minutes and for first time ever shes basically worn out and has come to my feet and lay down, its great she only normally does that late in evening when she wants bed.

I just worry too much as the dog we had growing up once damaged its front paw (maybe even broke it, this was 20 years ago) when she jumped over a chair and her paw hit a table so I am being overprotective of her.

And when she runs about often she sits by the door so I worry shes asking for out and not just playing so I don't want to risk her doing her business.

At least now I have no pads in living room if she does the business I just take her out and clean up after with simple solution when shes properly trained I willl use a proper carpet cleaning machine I have.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Just off to bed and its been a strange day, in morning she decided to sleep at my feet which she has never done since I got her except evenings (unless you count the first week when in evenings she would sleep beside the chair often when she wasn't chewing things) I only woke her to take her for her business (since it had been 90 minutes since she went last, I don't like going above that no matter what, is that right?)

She only tried nipping me once in a tantrum way in the late afternoon but in the evening she tried biting my trouser leg a few times, she also didn't do her number 2's outside again in evening but did it twice, since I used vinegar on sofa she now instead did it in corner (which I had blocked off until yesterday as she kept going behind sofa there) and once about a hour ago she pooped on my 2nd sofa and a few hours ago did a wee on cushion on same sofa.

It seems now she won't do her business on the sofa with vinegar smell which is great she still jumps on it to play but now instead she is using my light coloured sofa instead!

Also from about 9pm to about 20 minutes ago she kept going to door and jumping up at it, and did a few barks and a few whinges and I took her out and all she did was a wee despite taking her out about 4 times each for about 10 minutes (that was when eventually she came in and did poop)

The only real changes to her diet is I am giving her treats to train her now so I don't know if that is affecting her.

I admit I get frustrated but I am sticking with it knowing long term she will be great.

I am also careful now if I have to lift her and have a few times let her walk up and down steps herself, I just worry its bad for her muscles.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

When she poops outside are you praising and rewarding immediately? Make sure it's right as she goes and you are stood right next to her, otherwise she may think the reward is for coming to you. I wouldn't worry too much about picking her up and rushing her outside if she goes in the house. As she doesn't like being picked up this may make her just hide to do her business indoors, rather than encouraging her to do it outside. Ignore inside toileting, loads and loads of reward for outside toileting and she will get there in the end 😊


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I normally instantly call her good girl and she wags her tail and then act like its her birthday, thats unless its a wee and I just say "good girl" but wees seem to be ok its just "2's", I haven't been giving her treats since the first 2 weeks I had her, for her business but I may have to again, I was tryng to find a balance, and yes she stands beside me.

Picking her up is hit and miss sometimes she loves it other times she doesn't want it, possibly when she needs to go she might be tender around her stomach and I must be picking her up wrong.

It's small steps at time with her, and I should add I think part of the problem is also I sit in a armchair, she has less issues if I sit beside her on a sofa staying still and not getting excited, and she likes to get a cuddle there.

Also realised I don't know if shes "submitting" when I take her outside as when I pick up lead I notice she rolls on her back (but wags her tail)

It's just the problem with living in a flat its only 12 steps down but then I have to walk to side of flat to where the gate is for the back garden, there is a front garden but it has no fence, and even if it did I would still need to walk a few steps from my front door into it (as my neighbours front door is beside mine)

I mean she is excellent the times I leave her alone, and picks up commands fast (getting her to react to them without being excited is taking time though)

Going to bed for real now, I just wanted a breather after she is sleeping at my feet.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

ryouga said:


> I normally instantly call her good girl and she wags her tail and then act like its her birthday, thats unless its a wee and I just say "good girl" but wees seem to be ok its just "2's", I haven't been giving her treats since the first 2 weeks I had her, for her business but I may have to again, I was tryng to find a balance, and yes she stands beside me.


I would keep up the treat rewards until she is toilet trained. No harm in it.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think perhaps you should have a bit of a recap here, go back over all the advice you’ve had here and see what you have changed/done differently since first posting.

Some things can’t just be put in place for a short time to teach a behaviour. Some of it needs to be reinforced over a long period.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well I just realised a mistake I was making, I wondered why she was going to the door more past 2 days and it was because I kept the treats in my jacket pocket, it wasn't out she was wanting it was the treats!.

I used the treats today when she was biting my trousers and said drop it, rather than not stop she did and got a treat and even did it when I didn't have a treat, and she was on my lap and I was teaching her "leave it" and she stopped trying to get treat when I said so.

I really should spend more time training her, trainer said 30 minutes a day but I am doing it more like 10-15 minutes a day and take her for a 20-30 minute walk each day.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Ref the treats. Keep them in your pocket anyway, then you’ll always have one when she does something good.

As far as going to the door goes, have you inadvertently rewarded her for that; you aren’t looking to reward going outside, you’re looking to reward doing her poo and wee in the right place. How she gets there is irrelevant.

So let her out if she asks but don’t reward unproductive garden visits. I’m sure she’ll soon get it. you can do a ‘good girl’ for going to the door, but keep the treats for the real event.

’Leave it’ is a useful command to have. You’re right to start with treats, then you can transfer it to other things (like your trouser leg) If you offer a treat for it then look for her to physically back off a couple of steps. when she can do it reliably then try other things, like a ball, toy, sock, whatever, so that she knows that the command means to back off of whatever is in front of her.

Sometimes it’s good to have a moment and look at what you think you’re teaching your dog, as against what she’s actually learning from it.
BCs need lots of thinking because they learn really quickly and it’s easy to get it wrong.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

So I gave her a treat after her business earlier and she gave me a suprised look but happily took it, the next time we were out she didn't do anything and I noticed she just wanted to play by biting the lead so I took the opportunity to teach "drop it" the first few times she waited until she saw me get a treat before dropping it but then after that she dropped the lead just by my hand movement,

However I must of excited her too much as she came back in and almost straight away did a number 2 on carpet in corner.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

She got very agressively playful in the evening again to point she cut my arm a little, I got a bit annoyed and did a "growl" very faintly more like clearing my throat and she instantly stopped and behaved, since then I do this when shes getting too much and she behaves.

Don't know if its a good idea though as seen mixed thoughts on it online, either way I will just do it (unless people here say its a bad idea) if shes getting too extreme with her biting.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I think you would benefit from the help of a good behaviourist who uses positive, reward based methods, who can assess her fully and guide you in the best way to handle any issues.

She does sound quite sensitive and a bit anxious to me, and some of the methods you have been using could make things worse.

As for growling at her, I just think that could backfire on you tbh.

Vet referrals to a recommended behaviourist are often covered under insurance. 

Dogs Trust too have classes with behaviourists that are reasonably priced.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thats what I thought, if I growled at her she may snap, I also just realised her issues started when I changed her food from the one the farmer gave to a store bought one the issues seemed to start at same time though that may of just been a coincidence.

I think she really is mostly excited as she wags her tail when she barks or bites but its hard to tell its not teeth baring its just her trying to bite my arm, especially my watch its when I pull away she gets worse.

I think that when I said she does it when I pick her up isn't exactly right she only seems to do that when I am breaking up her when shes excited or trying to bite my feet/hands.

When I do hold her I do feel her heart beating fast a lot though.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I think a wagging tail can often be misread… it’s not just the wag but position too.

That’s why I suggested getting professional guidance as they can watch and translate.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Another thing to add, is it seems more in bedroom no matter if its daytime or night she just goes wild , I have managed to calm her today by using treats everytime she goes wild in bedroom and she calms.

I don't know if I have taught her biting has no consequences and she can do it when excited, shes gentle the rest of the time, even when shes snappy if I bring out a treat she goes calm and focuses on the treat.

EDIT Also just realised for past 2 weeks I have been going out of the house about twice a week, I wonder if this has made her more anxious.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I feel stupid, I believe I have worked it all out.

I think I have been underfeeding her as haven't changed the amount since I got her, so gave her bigger portion sizes today, she did have one tantrum today and a few mini tantrums but been very relaxed apart from that even deciding she just wants naps a few times,

I think its normal but she has tantrums if I use a landline phone, relatives older dog also gets a bit upset when a landline is used so I don't know if its a frequency thing, she has no problems when I make work calls from a headset.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

I think maybe altering the way you're thinking about her behaviour may help. She doesn't need 'consequences'. You need to teach her what behaviours you prefer, rather than punishing the ones you don't. For instance, if she nips while playing, well that's how puppies play, so if you would rather she didnt, show her how you would like her to play instead. Redirect her nipping to a toy, etc. 

Have you been to puppy classes with her? Collies need lots of mental stimulation.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Emlar said:


> I think maybe altering the way you're thinking about her behaviour may help. She doesn't need 'consequences'. You need to teach her what behaviours you prefer, rather than punishing the ones you don't. For instance, if she nips while playing, well that's how puppies play, so if you would rather she didnt, show her how you would like her to play instead. Redirect her nipping to a toy, etc.
> 
> Have you been to puppy classes with her? Collies need lots of mental stimulation.


She had a previous visit by trainer and we saw one today, in her training she is very well behaved and a fast learner, I was discussing with trainer the issues I was having and was saying they were just regular puppy issues and made recommendations I knew like the ones given here.

Puppy is also amazing around other dogs, she either touches nose to nose or rolls on her back, she also doesn't chase cars
I do normally redirect her to a toy when she is restless and biting but she either ignores it or plays for a few seconds then back to my arm, I tried time out a few times and that has varying success.

Trainer discussed with me how to safely get her up and down stairs as now I am not picking her up anywhere near as much I want to use stairs, puppy likes to rush down stairs and often 2 steps at a time and I didn't want to choke her, trainer taught me a command called "steady" going one step at a time and treating.

When she was training in a park puppy was off small lead and on a very long lead but not being held and was walking by my side without getting behind or ahead and when strangers or other dogs went by a simple "wait" command worked.

Her toilet training is still back and forth, shes regressed a little to doing it indoors more but at least its in one of two locations each time and not random like when I first got her and when I go outside especially later in day she prefers to play with lead rather than do toilet.

Trainer did say she may have a infection though as I notice she often does mini pee's i.e squats for a second and a trickle comes out and she does this a few times a hour sometimes despite me taking her straight out after.

Trainer did say don't worry too much about giving her treats, I always panic I am overfeeding puppy and that would make more accidents.

Gradually trying to find different toys and methods to stimulate her, I like the tornado toy and bought her a kong, but that is giving the effect of it makes her more excited.

When I can get her to play with a toy for a few minutes its a case of when she lunges I hold toy and she bites it and I have to let her chew it for 10-30 seconds then let go, if I just let her grab it she drops it straight away and goes back to arm.

The Nylabone toy is still her favourite though, but she seems to be getting more bored of it.

I can always tell when she is flickering out though as right before she gets bitey then runs around room a few times then decides to just sleep on floor or sofa at which point I spend a hour or so doing my own thing and then take her out one last time before bed.

She still is bitey in bedroom though meaning I have to take shoes off in bed.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Sounds like she is progressing well. They do generally grow out of the biting, as they gain their adult teeth. When our dog, Rufus, was a puppy he barely had any attention span at all and he would flit from one toy to another. I think that's quite normal when they're little.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Got her a replacement nylabone today as she has chewed one side off her old one and that kept her attention for a while.

About the biting and going back to picking her up, she doesn't mind being picked up if shes relaxed but if she wants to do something like play thats when she is snappy, I noticed today as she was restless so I wanted to hug her and she instantly tried snapping at my hand as I picked her up, despite me being careful and telling her I was about to lift her and rubbing her.

The only other time she snaps now is say when she already is in my arms and comfy but she is slipping out of my arms and/or its getting sore for me to hold her so I try to carefully lift her from her bum and that makes her uncomfortable.

Must be a better way to stop her sliding off me.

She has her good days and bad days now, yesterday she was calm most of day and even had actual naps a few times but taking her outside she was still overexcited and preferred to bite lead rather than play. she only had accidents in evening as usual but still managed to get her to do her business right before bed and she woke me 3 times during night, once about 4am once about 7am and again at 8am.

I notice she now tends to wake around 7.30am each day regardless I think thats because the amount of light in room, last week I adjusted my blinds to make them easier to open but now they don't keep out much light.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Shes been back and forth the last week, her toilet training is still a nightmare and her zoomies are getting worse and more of but less common, now in garden she jumps at my private area and a few times has bitten my knee,

I'm still uncertain on lifting/moving her as one moment she can be very happy to be hugged or moved another she can be a bit unhappy, not teeth baring but more like she feels im getting into her personal space.

In bed one night I noticed she was chewing something so I put my hand near her, she gave it a nip/snap but I reacted in time and a tiny not quite a growl, so maybe resource hoarding.

When she knows she is going outside she will be very happy to be lifted up or she knows she is getting a treat. And other times at random she will be fine, I think its more when shes tired or hungry she is likely to be snappier when picked up.

She can be hugging in my arms and even dozing off but shes moved a little so slipping out of arms so I may just shift myself a little and she nips me sometimes even in a slightly angry way,

She still bites when I go into bedroom, make bed or basically anything in bedroom no matter what time of day but I can stop this by using treats but not sure what else to do.

She had a stomach upset a few days ago and when she was outside did 2 small 2's then came back in and did a huge one as well as sloppy bites on carpet, lucky I own a rug cleaner.

She is running about living room more when tired/overstimulated and in this period she plays with toys more, she even is gradually learning to nap on sofa though she may only nap once a day on average (until late evening when she naps longer i.e 9-10pm) shes even using the other sofa now rather than just use it as a toilet area.

Shes chewing stones each time I go out now and I caught her chewing my pillows a few days ago, she still bites me and can be very agressive but often if I just once use my hand to brush her aside whilst I stand/get her toy or both she stops long enough and I take her into another room and she calms, or if shes really bad I hold her and she starts napping in my arms and licking me.

I think that problem is shes not napping during day, the rare occasion she does she has very short zoomies which may still be biting but overall easier to control and she likes to cuddle more and be touched then.

Training is going ok, she sits, lays down on command very easily, she leaves/drops something when in house unless she knows its wrong i.e shes stolen something and she hides in corner and stares, if I use treats she obeys every command first time bar now and again where shes jumping at me in garden she won't stop until she physically sees the treat but when she does she instantly gets off me and even sits or lies down waiting for treat to be given.

She still wakes up about twice during the night to go outside and waits quite a while before going in corner of room (it takes me about 10 minutes to wake and get ready as I don't want to fall down stairs) sometimes she pees on the rug in the hall but thats ok as I can just clean it with machine, she won't do 2's during night indoors unless I refuse to wake and waits until we are outside.

Still think a big part of her toilet training issues aren't that she doesn't like or know how to go outside but she gets distracted easily and just wants to play hence why she only does it straight away or at all when I take her out during night or first thing in morning when shes still waking up so not overstimulated, the later in day i.e lunchtime onwards she just wants to bite me and the lead, she won't bite me or lead when I take her on walk but she has only about 3 times in the month I have been taking her out done any business on a walk, often she only does it after I take her into own garden after walk is over (as made the mistake once to take her straight indoors and she did it inside)


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think you’re still being too physical with her. Too much touching, too much wanting to have contact when it sounds as if she’s only just tolerating it.

Dont assume that just because you want cuddles then she does too; my dog HATES cuddles so why would I force it on him.

You could try challenging yourself to not use touch, picking up etc for as long as possible. Use your brain to outwit her rather than your physical strength.
A lot of the stuff your doing now you won’t be able to do when she’s 20K anyway.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@ryouga is this your first puppy? How old is she now? 4 months? 
She sounds like a perfectly normal pup to me. Most are not fully potty trained at 4 months, you'll still have accidents. All puppies zoom, I don't even see that as an issue. Heck, most adult dogs zoom, it's one of the joys of having a dog, watching them in a bout of butt-tuck zoomies. 
And yup, puppies bite. And bite. And then bite some more. And then when they stop biting they start back up again when you weren't expecting it and "decorate" your furniture, shoes, wood trim... 

What were you expecting from a puppy? Particularly a high energy breed like a farm-bred BC? 

Stop picking her up, there is no reason to pick her up, she is perfectly capable of walking and she is a big dog, stop picking her up there is no need. 
And yes, as above, don't snuggle/cuddle her. If she initiates it, fine, but otherwise don't get in her space. That's a really good way to get her sensitized to human contact. 

Resource guarding is another perfectly normal behavior, but obviously we don't want our dogs guarding from us. So work on teaching her trade and drop and leave it with lots of treats and happy happy. 

For toilet training, when you take her out, have her on a leash and be dull and boring until she wees then she gets lots of praise and treats. But she has to stay on the leash until she pees. Now is a good time to teach her a verbal cue to go with peeing. One of the more useful cues to teach


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Shes 4 months yes and first puppy, family did have a 1 year old dog when I was a kid though so I knew personality traits to expect from a adult dog and how much exercise and stimulation they need and how to diet for them and their health issues etc.

I don't mind not picking her up, I only do it as a last resort I now walk her up and down stairs, the only real times I pick her up is if shes getting to bitey at hands or ankles to stop her, and thats if I had no success with distracting her with toys and treats.

It's nice to hug her but I more don't mind it as I know then she can't get up to mischief and she doesn't go into her crate unless I put her food in there and after that she comes straight back out.

Zoomies aren't a problem in themselves but when she does so thats when she likes to lunge and bite at me, she is slowly beginning to react to me saying "sit/down" when doing so though, I have a large tug toy and I can use that.

I did research before getting her the problems someone can have but knowledge and experience is different and I overestimated my own skills, that being said her positives are great, sleeping all/most of night, great personality, quick to pick up commands (even if she chooses when to follow them) doesn't bark/whine or destroy my house if I have to go out.

I guess my issues are I am raising her by myself so I don't have someone to back me up training and routine, and when things get difficult but I will stick with her, doesn't mean sometimes I have a very stressful day with her though.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

I feel you. Puppies are stressful! Me and OH were at our wits end a lot of the time when Rufus was a puppy. We had many moments of what on earth have we done?! 

But to reassure you, she does sound like a perfectly normal 4 month old BC. Biting is normal. Just move away or redirect. Our dog dislikes being picked up, and almost had my OH's nose off once when he picked Rufus up, and Rufus squirmed so my OH lost his grip and Rufus panicked. 

Also don't worry about her only doing things for treats. She's a baby still, why would she do things for any other reason?? Stopping still, etc is boring for a puppy. So there has to be something good in it for them!


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Zoomies today were not bad, she did have some accidents in the evening but I think thats just laziness as she did them and jumped off sofa and then looked at me.

Overall this was one of her good days, she had a few naps which normally she only does about once a week so wasn't as cranky, even the evening zoomies were far less than usual.

Basically every time she had a zoomie I tried distracting her with toys for a few minutes, then leave room and if that didn't work I used treats to get her attention and lie down and every minute or two drop a treat down, this method meant she was focused more on treats than biting, and evening one I used her tug toy for about 15 minutes as I didn't have treats in my pocket then gave her a quick hug when she was on my armchair, and that few seconds she decided that was what she wanted and then went to the sofa and napped.

So distractions do work,

It's squirming she does when I hold her, shes ok if I just have arms around her and she sleeps but the second I move she squirms and bites, I am only gently holding her so she doesn't hurt herself.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ryouga said:


> It's squirming she does when I hold her, shes ok if I just have arms around her and she sleeps but the second I move she squirms and bites, I am only gently holding her so she doesn't hurt herself.


I don't understand why you're holding her, hugging her, or any of it? Stop holding her!


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I don't hold her now unless I see no other way, I don't just pick her up at random when I first got her I did to calm her as she kept sleeping most of the day in my arms, now shes learning more to relax on sofa.

She has had a ok few days, her behaviour is getting slowly better, her zoomies are still painful but getting more "controllable" as I can distract her more and shes having more naps.

She went all night without a toilet break last night, she did wake about 4am and I was ready to take her out but instead she just laid on my arm, I kept waking worried she would have an accident but she didn't

I will still take her out normally but I think when she wakes up in middle of night shes not automatically wanting out as I notice she was getting up more and more but only seemed to squat for a second when outside and nothing.

I notice now when shes having zoomies and lunging at my arm if I distract her a second and then sit in a position my head is right above her she stops.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Ok, maybe just coincidence but I have "discovered" a way to encourage her to poop outside, if shes just doing nothing, or wants to play, or just does a wee I walk her to end of street which is about 2 minutes away, walk back to garden and then she does the poop, the only time this didn't work outright was when I did this and she did a poop on her mat about 10 minutes later.

It's a weight off my mind even though its a bit more hassle now in one way though I guess easier overall as I can spend less time worrying.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Last night ended strange she decided she was in the mood to chew things and bark, she damaged the base of a very old wooden bookcase I have which is upsetting but not the end of the world as it can be sanded down and varnished, eventually I had enough and went to bed not long after 10pm, she was fine during the night awoke 3 times for her business and the 3rd time took her about 30 minutes to settle and go back to sleep and fine so far this morning.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not read all the posts and I know this has been going on for a while so what age is she now. 2 points. Zoomies are fun , the best part of owning a pup is watching them do zoomies. Why do you want to distract her. Waking up 3 times to go outside seems very excessive. I have never let puppies out and my last two went through the night from day one.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I don't mind her having fun, but I live above someone so don't want her making huge amounts of noise, and her zoomies often have her barking and/or biting me or furniture.

Wouldn't mind otherwise.

Shes just over 4 months old now I get good and bad days.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ryouga said:


> I don't mind her having fun, but I live above someone so don't want her making huge amounts of noise, and her zoomies often have her barking and/or biting me or furniture.
> 
> Wouldn't mind otherwise.
> 
> Shes just over 4 months old now I get good and bad days.


She certainly should be going through the night by now or at the most one break. If you live in a flat above someone I assume you do not have easy access to a garden. I have to wonder why you chose a very high energy breed who is going to be vocal if not stimulated with plenty of physical and brain exercise. You have to let her get rid of her pent up energy so if you are not living somewhere suitable you are going to have to go out to a park or something and let her play outside.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

To be clear, I have my own garden at the back which is secure I don't use that often as when its dark she doesn't like to in there and I don't want to disturb my neighbours as they go to bed early, my front garden has no fence and I need to apply for permission from my HA to get one installed.

I think when she wakes up during night she mostly wants attention rather than to go out, I just take her out anyway normally at first I just put my arm out as she likes to sleep on it, if she seems to be awake for a few minutes I wake and then take her outside.

The night when she was out 4 or 5 times at least 2 of those she just walked around the garden then came back to my door and then went to bed and fell back asleep, she tends to only really do actual business around 6-8am each day and if I go back to bed for a longer sleep she goes when I get back out of bed.

It's not the end of the world to take her into garden I just can't pop on slippers and have quick access to a door with direct access to a garden.

When I say I am in a flat its a cottage flat, I only have about 10 steps into/out of property I don't live in a block and as above have my own private garden.

I wanted a dog for a few years but only moved to a cottage flat a few months ago, I used to live in a block of flats which though was on ground floor and had my own front garden wasn't very secure.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Now I think about it, I believe I am being over reactive.

I still take her outside every 90-120 minutes and when she doesn't go I panic and think shes going to go indoors, today she has had zero accidents (so far) and even did her business on a walk.

I was still in the take puppy out every 30-60 minute mindset and I wonder if she picked up on this and was playing up to go outside as today she was relaxed and never asked to go out.

Spoke to trainer who told me to take her out about 9pm and she can go all/most of night ok and I told her that I normally take puppy out right before bed i.e be that 10pm, or midnight.

I wonder if that also is why puppy gets over excited at bedtime rather than go straight to sleep as I have to wake her from her nap to take her outside.

Sorry, in the process of trying to be the best I can for her I have made simple mistakes.

Trainer did say to feed her a bit more too as she is a little smaller than she should be at her age, and this should also make her less cranky in case its hunger related

On her diet note, I currently feed 3 times a day, is it a good idea to go down to twice a day but bigger portions or maybe half portion for evening meal in bowl and half in kong?

EDIT - Typical she had a small zoomie and then had 2 accidents in space of a few minutes after she jumped on me and knocked over her treat bag and then got a large amount of treats.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

I'd stick with feeding 3 times a day until she is about 6 months old. You can give fresh fruit and veg as 'snacks' to munch on throughout the day, etc carrots, celery, cucumber. They're good and healthy for pups to chew on.

I wouldn't worry too much about what time precisely you take her out for her last wee. We always wake our dog before bed for a wee, whatever time that is. 

I don't think you've made 'mistakes'. You're learning about her and how to settle into a bit of a routine. There will be plenty of things you do, and in hindsight think, ah, that probably didn't work. But then also plenty of things where you think aha! We've cracked it! 

Remember to take time just to enjoy her being a puppy as well 😊


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

ryouga said:


> Now I think about it, I believe I am being over reactive.
> 
> I still take her outside every 90-120 minutes and when she doesn't go I panic and think shes going to go indoors, today she has had zero accidents (so far) and even did her business on a walk.
> 
> ...


Personally I wouldn't expect my adult collies to hold themselves from 9.00pm until the following morning unless I was getting up at something like 4.00am and certainly would not expect a puppy to hold herself for that amount of time.
3 Meals a day until at least 6 months old.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Last night she had 1 accident but that was to be expected as she had that extra big portion of treats and some water right before bed (she was near howling for water after stealing the treats) she didn't even warn me i just woke up and noticed she was awake and a smell and she had done it in corner, she went until about 8am again which is her normal wakey time and pestered me to wake so I just let her hug my arm and woke at 9 and she did business right when she woke, she then was very thirsty again after breakfast im talking almost entire small bowls worth.

So I believe most of the time when she wakes during night its just her being restless as sometimes she just sleeps on my arm other times she wants to play or mouth (not bite) my hand so I take her outside.

For the first few weeks I had her, she went out about twice a night on average sometimes once if I woke early around 8am and that counted as her 2nd, then it slipped suddenly but that may just be her knowing if she wakes me I take her outside.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

As an aside to the water comment....do you not just leave water out for her all the time? She should have free access to water, rather than you giving her water when she is thirsty. You may already do this and I am reading it slightly wrongly 😊


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

You seem to get up quite late so a last wee at 9pm is far too early. When I say my puppies went all night that would be going out at 11ish in the evening and getting up at 6am. My adult dogs are getting very lazy and normally want to go out around 9 in the evening and are reluctant to get up in the morning!


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I have water always available but try and not have any out past about 9pm at night unless shes really desperate in case she wees during night but I am willing to change that if need be just as a lot of puppy advice was don't give them water 2 hours before bed.

Relatives with an adult dog let them out at 9.30pm and wake around 8 (though used to be 7 but they are pensioners now) so my thinking was take puppy out later and expect at least one outside visit during night, if I plan to stay awake say to midnight I would take her out around 10pm and midnight.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

ryouga said:


> I have water always available but try and not have any out past about 9pm at night unless shes really desperate in case she wees during night but I am willing to change that if need be just as a lot of puppy advice was don't give them water 2 hours before bed.
> 
> Relatives with an adult dog let them out at 9.30pm and wake around 8 (though used to be 7 but they are pensioners now) so my thinking was take puppy out later and expect at least one outside visit during night, if I plan to stay awake say to midnight I would take her out around 10pm and midnight.


Puppy should have fresh water available at all times.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Dogs should have water available all the time. I think the don't leave water out before bed is old advice. 

Our dog now will have a last wee at around 10.30pm and then last until about 8am. So they can last a long time when older and are able.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Last night she was very crazy after about 7pm, I wasn't feeling great myself as I had my jag maybe she realised I was poorly so played up, i wanted anap myself but she found a old bandage of mine an ran and hid under bed chewing it took about 20 minutes of trying to get her to drop with a treat and get it away in time, then she instantly fell asleep, after I woke after nap she just napped on living room sofa until I went back to bed and slept all night, and despite me taking her outside around 1.30am (as I napped for 2 hours I was awake longer) she didn't do any business and went to 7am

Today she was so so, I managed to stop most biting incidents by distracting her with treat and using it to make her sit, lie down then hold it for 30 seconds or so and drop it, this kept her relaxed and she napped, and only woke when I got up to have a shower and put washing in machine before it was too late at night.

She did have a few accidents on the mat I have for her in corner, despite me taking her out mostly wee's but also did a small messy smelly poopy, I am not sure if thats because I have increased her feed a little and also gave her treats.

She had random biting incidents again then around 9.20 wanted to nap, typical my washing finished at 9.30 and I needed to get things out straight away and after she got a little bitey and restless but not too bad, going to bed in about 10 minutes as working tomorrow so need to wake around 8am.

I did buy her a wood block chew at trainers request too.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Does she have an natural chews to munch on? Like rabbit ears, etc?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think you are expecting far too much and from what you seem to be saying you are not giving anything back. You have not mentioned walks or toys and treats or play sessions. A bored collie is a destructive collie.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Because I thought that would be obvious, I take her for about 30 minutes walk each day even on work days, the only difference is work days are at set times, she has so many toys she often just ignores them, from nylabones, and just bought her a few days ago these wood blocks, to different size kongs, to chew toys I also play with her. I have even taken her to large park about once a week, I don't drive so I rely on friend driving us

Toys just grab her attention for a few seconds and rarely more, each time I get a new nylabone (when old is worn down) she loves it for a day or two then ignores it.

Bear in mind, I will make you aware I am autistic so not the best at describing myself.

All I am expecting is to not have her bark at me if I go into kitchen and want to cook something, go into a drawer, go into a cupboard to find something, or bite my feet and hands, my hand is in agony because it feels like when I broke it years ago, its just a constant pain even when shes not biting it. However I do know things take time I was just wishing certain things didn't go backwards.

Trainer did recommend ear chews, didn't get them yet as had a Amazon issue past few days to buy anything but it's sorted now (and I was working so couldn't buy from town)

The last day I have gone back to giving her frozen carrots, they work for the time she chews them.

Her potty training though has gone very far backwards, she goes out as normal and might do a wee, but refuses to poop (unless its first thing in morning or during night) unless it's indoors and even then she is now ignoring the mat I have in corner for her and does it next to it thats both numbers though I don't know if thats because its hard frost outside.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well after a evening of barking and biting she had a bad stomach and I had to pop her blanket in washing machine, but at least she calmed down after, so explains why she was so grumpy and likely why she didn't do it outside today (and just inside)


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Today she was more calm, I took her to park with my friend and she was a little bitey when she got back home but jumped into my arms when I had a treat then just decided to sleep, and after a while jumped off and slept on floor, thats so far so still time for zoomies.

Going back a little about exercise, what is the best method? Originally I took her a 10 minute walk down to park, spent a few minutes around there just letting her sniff and then walk back, I know that isn't exercise just walking and she wasn't bad on that.

The times I take her to the park and she sniffs all the trees and this is more like 40 minutes she comes home and flakes out and is calm and has zoomies still but not as bad.

Going back to what I do with her normally though I know I am a beginner is at breakfast time (on non work days) I feed her and get her to sit/lie down and touch her collar when giving her a treat. lunch is a "tornado" with her food in, evening if I remember is a filled kong and then I feed her a little more a hour later, otherwise I put her food into a bowl and put it in crate so she is calm with it (which she seems to be doing)

Im visiting relatives with a adult collie next week so will be her first real time she will be with another dog for a long period and in another house.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It sounds like if you occupy her she is calmer which would be what you would expect. If you are taking her to the park and just letting her sniff around then it is fine to spend as long as you like. It might be an idea to do that at least twice a day and to do a couple of short training sessions a day too. You have a very high energy, intelligent working dog. You cannot expect her to be a calm house pet if you do not find a way to channel her energy and desire to work.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well I should be clearer, I do have a field next to me that leads onto a county park but I rarely use it anymore I did about a month ago though as the quickest route into it is by my house but has a lot of broken glass and dumped rubbish some of which is burned and when she was smaller I used to carry her over that part and put her down on the grass past it, the only other way to get into the field/park would be a detour at back of some flats which adds about 3 or 4 minutes to the journey, that then loops around a beautiful walk.

Then I cut down to taking her between the grass patches at back of houses and walked as far as another field entrance to park where a football ground is then walked back but again that was a few weeks ago and noticed she would get zoomies when coming back from walks, then in past 2 weeks changed it to walk her to corner shop which is about 3 or 4 minutes away, and back and do this 2-4 times a day as she has more chance to do her business when she comes back from a walk as well as less likely to be cranky and have zoomies.

I take her to a another beautiful estate which has public grounds about 2 miles away which dogs are off their leads all the time and people are friendly thats when she is the most calm when I take her back and has long naps afterwards.

Anyway had a works Christmas meal last night so friend took her overnight, he said she had a few accidents and did the feet/hand biting like she does with me but he was able to distract her with her toys each time but otherwise was ok,

I noticed when she came back to me today she seemed a bit off, was still wanting to jump and lick me but may of just been tiredness, she was yawning a lot and having naps and instead of following me everywhere she stood in living room in corner and just stared at me, by afternoon she was back to her usual self except she isn't going very much, she did have 2 accidents with me today, one was a tiny wee, other was around 4.45 I was about to take her out anyway, as hadnt done it in 2 hours (in which she did a big 2) I did notice a smell and assumed it was just farty, noticed she did nothing outside and came back in to find a big one on her blanket.

Had a thought though don't know if it is reasonable, a neighbour has some carpet scraps available after they got new carpet down, I was thinking put these under blanket so if she does wee on it, it won't soak through onto sofa, also in bedroom have a scrap in the spot she normally goes during night maybe even with a pad over it?

Yes I still have 1 pad in bedroom and living room, I think its easier than having small blankets/towels down and having to wash them each time she does something, or am I wrong?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I cannot imagine why a pup that age is having frequent accidents. There is something very wrong with the way you are managing her I think. Also why are you just walking her to the corner shop and back. She is needing free running and a proper walk. Not hours and hours at her age but a good half hour of running around sniffing a couple of times a day and a couple of good fun short training sessions a day. If you do not have a recall put her on a long line or a flexi and let her have a good race around. I am sorry but you do not seem to be treating her like a normal dog.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I'm just learning as said before, I was trying to find the best method for her, I didn't want to tire her out so I thought shorter walks more often would be better than longer walks.

She does sniff around on her short walks so even though it may be a 3 minute walk to the corner shop by time she has sniffed around there and back can be 15 minutes.

Her accidents are very random, I have had days of no accidents, days where she has had a few which mostly seem to be work days but thats when I take her to garden more often.

I have tried taking her outside after around a hour, around 2 hours and there seems to be little consistency apart from she goes in morning after sleeping.

I think a big part of it is she wants to play when in garden so its hard to get her to settle.

I haven't been recalling her a lot as I did it in front garden a few times and she was great until one day she decided to run off and want me to chase her so waited until I got a training lead which arrived a few days ago I have been more trying to focus on her biting ankles and her zoomies and her toilet behaviour.

I have been trying to work out balances for everything, I don't mind walking her multiple times a day which is why I do small walks as I don't want her to tire out but I am torn as I know she needs walks to stimulate her.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Last night she was ok, took her for a long walk at lunchtime and she was a little hyper after but then napped but crazy again in evening, she didn't do business from about 6.30pm onwards and I was worried about her (well she did a wee) I noticed she was a little restless in bed around 3am but slept until 7.30am when I woke and I took her outside and she did a 2, but when I came back in I noticed she must of did a wee right as she got out of bed that I didn't notice.

So she can go overnight its more a case of her wanting to go indoors than not being able to hold it in.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Are you still doing lots of praise and treats when she does go outside?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I normally say "good girl" and instantly give her a treat, in fact after she does her business she stops and looks at me if she does a 2 I act like shes a little baby making sounds as well.

In other ways she is improving, shes starting to not bite my ankles when going up stairs as much anymore, she still bites when shoes are off though and bites hands.

I think her hand biting is getting better in tiny amounts as in it still hurts and she still goes crazy but it just doesn't hurt to the same level, it still is painful but im getting less cuts on hand.

And randomly she is settling beside me or on sofa and plays with toys a tiny bit more.

In garden what I do if shes hyper is take out a treat, which makes her stop, ask her to sit (though she often does it anyway) hold treat for a few seconds to try and teach her impulse then drop or hand it to her, this normally works within 3 tries if not I take her on that walk to the corner shop and back, but then shes a little hyper again but often 1 more treat/dry food makes her calm.

When I give her a treat (which is mostly one of her pieces of dry food, so maybe change to actual treats) its one small piece.

When she has zoomies in evening she either jumps on me to get a treat if I hold one at which point I calmly rub her back and give her treat and this can calm her if I do it a few times at which point she jumps down and either continues to have zoomies or looks at me, if she is quiet and relaxed I say "good girl" and drop a treat and wait 30 seconds or so and drop another, this works maybe 1 out of 4 times if I do this for 5 -10 minutes and she lies down.

Also to add, I have started spraying vinegar on things she bites like rug or furniture legs is that an outdated/bad idea? As maybe that is whats causing her to have accidents.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Do you do any enrichment with her? Does she had any kong toys or puzzle toys/snuffle toys to engage her brain? You may find that giving her one of these when she’s in a hyper mood calms her down. Licking and chewing are calming activities so a filled kong or a likimat could help.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I give her a kong for her evening dinner, lunchtimes (on non work days) is a spinning feeder though she works it out in seconds.

Haven't got a lickimat so far,

Her toys are a small kong, a large kong and a very large kong, 2 sqeaky teddies, a few nylabones, a tug rope (which makes her the most hyper, some balls (which are like ropes in a ball shape, she never touches them) she did have more but she destroyed them quickly.

I did give her a large bone a few times and she loves those to point she ignores the world around her, problem is each time I have given them to her (from a butcher) she has the runs that night.

The times when she does lick/chew things she is calm but she rarely seems to have the attention span to do it.

She only seems to be truly calm before lunch every day, could be a concidence but in morning she doesn't really drink water, once she drinks it she goes crazy.

Maybe another coincidence but my water quality isn't the best, well it looks clear but when I boil it then it looks cloudy and not that great.


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## Yuliya (1 mo ago)

Perhaps take advantage of her toys, as they can meet her needs. There are many toys for dogs. Some of them should be destroyed by dogs, some of them should be used for chewing, and the last part of the toys should be used for interaction with you. Border Collies fancy the activities with people, as it is the way they work. Fetching and tug of war are great, but make sure your dog knows "drop it". And also you can have some simple games, touch the nose, find hidden toys or food, or recognise different objects. The clicker is a good helper.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I have been away, basically went to relatives on Wednesday who have a old collie, when puppy arrived she was friendly with older collie but older collie was frightened of her, puppy was drinking out of older collies bowl and later in day tried stealing some food out if it, older collie was shaking a lot but gave a warning snap a few times when puppy was in her face and once when puppy pounced on her head to play, also puppy decided she liked older collies tail and bit it at least once.

One of the relatives solution to puppy playing up was put hand on her neck and gently push down and count to 5 and see if she calmed down, if not count to 5 again, as well as stare and point and say no, this worked most of the time and puppy also seemed to like attention from him,.

Female relative came to stay at mine for a few days and puppy was a bit less respectful of her, biting her feet often as relative wears slippers, trying to nip her or bark at her (not in a agressive way though more a controlling)

We went for a walk together today and puppy was barking and pulling relative when she held the lead and just wanted attention from me.

Puppy mostly listened to me except when she was having her zoomies which were different than usual, rather than her run about and get nippy and loud at random between say 6pm-10pm she instead got bitey especially around relative and at the point where she normally naps instead she wanted to run around then hide.

On a seperate note I think, puppy has been consipated for about 2 days, when I went to relatives I noticed when she squatted down she did so for a few minutes, then on Thursday morning she did her poops as normal at 7am (when she slept till) 9am when I reawoke from nap and took her out, and after breakfast at 9.30 she had an accident on relatives floor before I took her out but then went until 5.30am today without doing a number 2 (wee's were ok)

Today she went at 5.30am as stated then at 9am when I woke, and then not until about 2.15pm then she had an accident indoors about 8pm (after being outside about 10 minutes before)

I can't tell if she has any issue, she does love to chew stones though so relatitve says she may have pica.

EDIT - Whilst visiting relatives I found a lovely old fashioned pet shop, (hard to find these days) I bought some rabbit ears and a pigs ear for puppy to chew and also a block of I think yaks cheese, the ears were cheap but the block cost a bit but if it helps her.

As for her toys, last week I bought her some blocks of wood for her to chew on, I have a toy that she spins around to access her food at dinner (dog tornado by Nina something) I have 3 different sized Kongs, a large chew toy, a small chew toy, a few nylabones, and a large tug rope.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

ryouga said:


> One of the relatives solution to puppy playing up was put hand on her neck and gently push down and count to 5 and see if she calmed down, if not count to 5 again, as well as stare and point and say no, this worked most of the time and puppy also seemed to like attention from him,.


In my opinion, this is not a good way to train. This strikes me as trying to 'alpha' or 'dominate' the puppy, which isna very outdated idea. Puppy is being a puppy, that doesn't need to be punished. She can be taught to be calm in nicer ways.

Also, please try not to let her chew on stones. This could damage her teeth and cause blockages further down. Does she have plenty of other things to chew on? She is probably teething.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Emlar said:


> In my opinion, this is not a good way to train. This strikes me as trying to 'alpha' or 'dominate' the puppy, which isna very outdated idea. Puppy is being a puppy, that doesn't need to be punished. She can be taught to be calm in nicer ways.
> 
> Also, please try not to let her chew on stones. This could damage her teeth and cause blockages further down. Does she have plenty of other things to chew on? She is probably teething.


That was my thinking, as for the stones when I catch her chewing one I distract her with a piece of her dry food or a treat and chuck the stone away.

She originally chewed stones for the first 2 or 3 weeks I had her and only went back to them about 2 weeks ago, the same time as she started chewing my rug, armchair and cabinet so I thought it may be teething too.

See above for the updated bit about some extras I bought her.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

ryouga said:


> That was my thinking, as for the stones when I catch her chewing one I distract her with a piece of her dry food or a treat and chuck the stone away.
> 
> She originally chewed stones for the first 2 or 3 weeks I had her and only went back to them about 2 weeks ago, the same time as she started chewing my rug, armchair and cabinet so I thought it may be teething too.
> 
> See above for the updated bit about some extras I bought her.


Perfect. Teething puppies will want to chew anything and everything, so great that you have lots of different things and textures for her to chew on 👍🏻


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

And don’t allow the pup to get in an old dog’s face, nor food and water bowls.

It’s not the old dog’s job to discipline your pup.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

That was my thought too but relative thought if I fussed over puppy she will pick up my nerves and play up and that it was good if puppy had a few snaps at it to make it understand boundaries it can go with other dogs.

They were suprised older Collie didn't snap when puppy used its water or food bowl though

Puppy was jealous though when older collie jumped beside me for a cuddle and star ted barking and then jumped up too,

Within a few hours puppy and older Collie were touching each others noses often, not best friends but tolerated,


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

There is lots of really good advice on here that you can recap and act on.

You say this is your first dog, and it feels to me as if you’re having trouble actually understanding things from your pup’s point of view. For example, dogs don’t do ‘jealous’. Literally, they haven’t got the wiring for it. So how will you interpret better what you saw?

I think you need a good book or two on how dogs think, and what are the motivations behind their actions, because there is a lot that you can’t safely make a ‘best guess’. Or a chat with a good R+ behaviourist.

I’m hoping somebody on here can recommend reading matter, if they haven’t already, as I’m not totally up to date with the latest, best authors.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Linda Weasel said:


> There is lots of really good advice on here that you can recap and act on.
> 
> You say this is your first dog, and it feels to me as if you’re having trouble actually understanding things from your pup’s point of view. For example, dogs don’t do ‘jealous’. Literally, they haven’t got the wiring for it. So how will you interpret better what you saw?
> 
> ...


Probably just the way I come across, I say jealous but also could be wanting attention or to play. I also go by people I speak to in public who have dogs or family that use wording like I do.

Puppy herself is showing small signs of improvement, when she does have her crazies now the bites hurt a little less and sometimes she gives up after a while, and can even play with her toys now, she is barking more though for attention.

She no longer bites my ankle when I go up stairs instead wants to carry the lead in, she is having much less accidents and going to toilet overall far less (as to be expected) Now its about once a night and sometimes if she wakes at 7am I can just put my arm out to hug her and she sleeps in that till 8/9 (depending on if its a work day or not) to take her out

No more pads are used as she just goes on the corner sofa or at my bedroom door now and I just use carpet shampoo and simple solution on the afffected area.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Ok confused over her behaviour last few days, she isn't going as much though last week she was blocked up, and she seems to not want to go into front garden unless to play, she either tries pulling me into back garden where she just wants to run around, or pull me towards the path to go for a walk, even if this is 8am in morning when she has just woke up, then she comes back in and within a minute or two goes on sofa (or rug in hall)

Last night she went 3 times within a hour in evening, I think she may still be blocked up, the poops are something between hard and slightly soft, a few times they have been hard, she also is eating grass/mud sometimes.

I just give her dry food, anything I can add to help her along? I hear mix things about frozen carrots.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

ryouga said:


> Ok confused over her behaviour last few days, she isn't going as much though last week she was blocked up, and she seems to not want to go into front garden unless to play, she either tries pulling me into back garden where she just wants to run around, or pull me towards the path to go for a walk, even if this is 8am in morning when she has just woke up, then she comes back in and within a minute or two goes on sofa (or rug in hall)
> 
> Last night she went 3 times within a hour in evening, I think she may still be blocked up, the poops are something between hard and slightly soft, a few times they have been hard, she also is eating grass/mud sometimes.
> 
> I just give her dry food, anything I can add to help her along? I hear mix things about frozen carrots.


She's a collie and they do want to run around and play. I'd be worried if any of mine didn't want to run and play regardless of age.
What exactly are you feeding her? Pooping 3 times in an hour isn't normal.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

ryouga said:


> Ok confused over her behaviour last few days, she isn't going as much though last week she was blocked up, and she seems to not want to go into front garden unless to play, she either tries pulling me into back garden where she just wants to run around, or pull me towards the path to go for a walk, even if this is 8am in morning when she has just woke up, then she comes back in and within a minute or two goes on sofa (or rug in hall)
> 
> Last night she went 3 times within a hour in evening, I think she may still be blocked up, the poops are something between hard and slightly soft, a few times they have been hard, she also is eating grass/mud sometimes.
> 
> I just give her dry food, anything I can add to help her along? I hear mix things about frozen carrots.


How old is she now? Rufus's poops were all over the place when he was little. They've settled now he is older. I'm not sure she understands yet that you want her to toilet outside. Rufus was the same outside when he was small, just wanted to play! So we were in and out of the garden like yo yos, then HUGE praise and treats when he toileted outside.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

She's 20 weeks now,

She is going less during night too, she does want to go out at least once though now its often just a quick wee and rushes back indoors, 

I think she really is blocked though as have found tiny pebbles in her poop.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I left her with friend who has dogsitted her a few times when I had to go to office, he said for first 2 nights she kept having accidents despite taking her out for walks of at least a hour, but 3rd night she was well behaved, he also said she never once bit his arm, but she did bark a lot for attention, he told me she was on a 90 minute walk today and I have never seen her this well behaved, she did bite my arm seconds after getting home but 2 or 3 nos and she stopped, and she went to the door a few minutes later and I sat by it and I took her outside, she pretty much dragged me into back garden where I let her run around for a few minutes, and when she was in front garden she had a wee.

She tried biting my arm a few times again when coming back in but reacted to no each time and behaved.

Only had her back a hour so fingers crossed this is a sign, it also means I will have to take her on longer walks as stated before though.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I can't remember but did you ever go back to basics with her with potty training? 
It sounds to me like she just doesn't understand that she should go outside, never inside. 

One, restrict the area she has access to inside. Dogs like to keep their living spaces clean, so keep her to a small area that you can supervise easily. 
As she learns to go outside you can slowly increase the area inside she's allowed in. 

When you take her out, have her on leash, give the cue word for voiding, keep saying it in intervals until she goes. Then praise and treat. At that point she can be off leash, but until she goes, she's on leash and you go out there with her to make sure she goes and make sure you can praise and reward when she does. 

She's old enough now to have control and not need to go so often, so if she's still having a lot of accidents I would go back to basics for a few months at least. The more she's allowed to make mistakes in potty training, the harder it will be in the long run.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I take her out every 2 hours at most often in less time than that.

I don't have a word for her yet to do it, I normally say "poo poo" or "go business" but she just blanks me and when she goes I just praise and give her treat as I would assume using a word other than that would confuse but I understand to now use it in intervals.

I keep her to my living room, my kitchen door is open but not accessable unless I open living room door, I notice she loves the bathroom and hides there if shes scared and if I go in to have a shower or wash hands she calmy lies on floor and even can nap.

She wees quite a bit but small amounts.

I also admit I had a pad in the living room in one corner apart from sofa that she kept going but removed that only about 3 weeks ago, and once I removed it she stopped going in that corner totally.

So right now theres 3 spots she goes, one sofa in living room (and NEVER the other as thats the one she plays or sleeps on), the rug in the hall (rarely) or in bedroom by door/wardrobe. She has never once peed in kitchen or bathroom, but they have vinyl flooring.

I don't think she went that often when at friend its just when she did she did it indoors, he told me he took her out for a hours walk, and she did it the second she got indoors.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ryouga said:


> I take her out every 2 hours at most often in less time than that.
> 
> I don't have a word for her yet to do it, I normally say "poo poo" or "go business" but she just blanks me and when she goes I just praise and give her treat as I would assume using a word other than that would confuse but I understand to now use it in intervals.
> 
> ...


It's not how often you take her out, it's that you go out with her, say her word, and praise and treat when she goes. 

If she doesn't want to pee on the sofa she sleeps and plays on that's an excellent sign. I would block her access to the other sofa, put a chair or a stool on it whenever you can't directly supervise or simply block her access to the living room. 
For the spot in the hallway, make sure you clean it thoroughly and then feed her her meals right there in that spot. That will help her see it as a living area, not a pottying area. It's good to expand her "living" areas anyway.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

You need to say the word while she’s actually doing it, not before or after.

When she can associate the word with what she’s doing (give it a week or two, every single time) then you can see if the word for the action has become ingrained enough to be used as a command.

I would also be teaching her an ‘off’ command, rather than saying ‘no’ when she bites/rags you.
You can teach it using objects other than you, then transfer it.

Sorry don’t have time to do a method now, but a quick google should find it being taught using r+ .


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, well I tried the "off" command and had little luck in the past, today she really was a little better than I remember she just seemed to react to the word "no" I have tried "off" or "leave it" before for when she bites as I wasn't sure exact word to use.

"no" is the word my friend/puppysitter uses with her.

I will feed her on the hall rug then, I was trying to work out best things to aim for each time, so I probably am focusing on too much rather than one or two things, like I feed her barefoot so she doesn't bite feet and that is seeming to work.

For her accidents I normally "know" as she jumps onto the sofa but by time I have reacted its always too late to catch her, I quickly call her name and/or say "going out" but often thats too late, and the times I catch her in time and take her out she doesn't do anything.

But sometimes she jumps on that sofa when she has her zoomies or plays with toys so I quickly react and its a false alarm of sorts, I worry that I am worrying too much if that makes sense and she may pick up on it.

On the biting note, she really is using less force as time goes on so much so it rarely hurts unless she bites in a certain way


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

How did you train ‘off’.
You say you tried it and it didn’t work?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Normally if shes doing something like jumping on me, or biting my arm I say "off" until she stops at which point I say "good girl" and give her treat but it didn't stop the behaviour.

The other rarely used onel I do is if she jumps beside me and I don't want bothered I say off and if she doesn't do it I hold treat in my hand and say it whilst moving my finger from in front of her to the floor at which point I say good girl and give her the treat.

Someone told me I may be bribing her not rewarding her with my methods.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

It wouldn’t stop the behaviour; if she jumps at you six times, you say ‘off’ six times, and at the seventh time she stops jumping, then you’ve spent more times saying ‘off’ while she jumps than when she didn’t jump. Can you see why this isn’t working?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thats the part that confuses me, if I say it so often it will lose its meaning, but if I say it once she won't know what it means (if thats what you are saying)

I remember my parents saying years ago when our Collie wasn't listening to not say it more than once as it just confuses the dog.

Update on her accidents today, I blocked most of the sofa today bar a small piece as I am blocking it partly with her crate so she can get in and out, it seemed to work as she had no accidents in 8 hours and even did a wee outside on grass then all of a sudden she managed to get in a position of hanging off side of sofa and so poop fell onto carpet.

It's a L Shaped sofa so kinda hard to get an exact blocking and right now looks so untidy as I have a bean bag, a crate and a table on top of it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ryouga said:


> Thats the part that confuses me, if I say it so often it will lose its meaning, but if I say it once she won't know what it means (if thats what you are saying)
> 
> I remember my parents saying years ago when our Collie wasn't listening to not say it more than once as it just confuses the dog.


You can't just say it and hope the dog is a mind reader. You have to show her what off means. 
If you want off to mean not jump, then teach her what you do want her to do. Pick a behavior you want, four feet on the floor, sit, lay down, whatever you want, then teach that behavior with lure and reward, then use it in a high excitement setting. 

I think you would really benefit from a basic puppy class and learning how to teach behaviors from the start.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

O2.0 said:


> You can't just say it and hope the dog is a mind reader. You have to show her what off means.
> If you want off to mean not jump, then teach her what you do want her to do. Pick a behavior you want, four feet on the floor, sit, lay down, whatever you want, then teach that behavior with lure and reward, then use it in a high excitement setting.
> 
> I think you would really benefit from a basic puppy class and learning how to teach behaviors from the start.


I assumed I was showing her what off meant (though admit not every time) as in use my hands to guide her to where I wanted her, I will say I sometimes say "off", then "sit/down" then good girl as I assumed that would make her associate it.

But calling it not jump is a good way of explaining it too, I was trying to use it to not just say "not jump" but variations of get off me, or the furniture i.e "off" Relative told me to use the word "down" but that is what I was told to use for "lie down" by the trainer.

I have been on the look out for puppy classes since I got her but the only one I can find is about 25 miles away, a local told me there is 2 here but I can't remember name they told me and searching my town I cant find any.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Sit on your sofa.

Hold a treat out at knee height (roughly) In your closed fist.

When your pup starts touching your hand to get the treat, do nothing. If you’re getting biting or clawing then wear a glove. Say NOTHING. Persevere.

After some unsuccessful attempts to get the treat out of your hand, your pup will probably move her head/body back away from your hand.

INSTANTLY, open your hand and give her the treat and praise. Move your hand out quickly towards her to give the treat, rather than allow her to come back to you.

Do this over and over, for at least a few days until she is RELIABLY stepping back from your hand.

ONLY when she is stepping back from your hand to get the treat add a word. Add the word when she is away from your hand as you give the treat. Use a normal tone of voice; there’s no need to shout at a BC.
You can add the word now because at this stage she understands that to get the treat she must back off/not be touching you.
Because you’ve been using ‘off’ without effect I would suggest you use a new word eg ‘back’.

ONLY WHEN you have this reliable behaviour can the word become a command.
Do a ‘trial run’. Put something that you know she doesn’t particularly want on the floor. Stay close. When she goes to touch/ sniff it, give your chosen command (eg ‘back’) . By now she should understand to back off the object. As soon as she does, praise her and reward. Then you either pick the object up and put it out of sight, or you give it to her with ‘take it’.

PRACTISE, PRACTISE, PRACTISE. 
With other objects, treats, whatever, and in different places. But NEVER with her food bowl. At the early stages, go back sometimes to the treat in your hand stage, even if shes doing better, just to reinforce the basic concept.

This takes as long as it takes. Different dogs have different learning speeds and capabilities.

This command is transferable, when it’s well enough learned, to sofas, people, things you don’t want her to pick up. With people/yourself it may help to throw a treat away from you as a reward. Don’t wait until she jumps at you before you give the command, say it as she’s coming towards you.

This takes time. You are teaching your dog a new language with everything you train. Border Collies aren’t particularly forgiving if you make a mistake, because they miss nothing, therefore sometimes what you think you’re teaching them isn’t what they are learning from you. You need to be precise and consistent.

If this doesn’t work then it’s down to you. I hope that doesn’t sound harsh but I’ve passed this method on, successfully, to literally hundreds of dogs and owners.

I hope this is helpful, please ask if there’s anything I haven’t made clear.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, I agree part of the problem is me as I have so much info I don't know what to do best normally I suppose I am being too quick in using words rather than just treating.

One quick query, when you say sit on my sofa, do you mean the one which she uses as a spot? And if so I guess to change what she thinks of it (not sure how to word that)

My sofa is back against the wall, the only way I would be able to sit on it and use my computer would be to move it to middle of the flor but that would defeat the purpose I assume.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

If you can't find any classes local to you, lots of trainers do virtual classes, or online subscriptions. I'm signed up to Adolescent Dogs, we pay monthly, have access to all their online training videos and can message and ask questions, etc. I would just make sure that you find someone using reward based methods, rather than anything else.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

ryouga said:


> Thanks, I agree part of the problem is me as I have so much info I don't know what to do best normally I suppose I am being too quick in using words rather than just treating.
> 
> One quick query, when you say sit on my sofa, do you mean the one which she uses as a spot? And if so I guess to change what she thinks of it (not sure how to word that)
> 
> My sofa is back against the wall, the only way I would be able to sit on it and use my computer would be to move it to middle of the flor but that would defeat the purpose I assume.


You can sit anywhere you like. Sitting is suggested because it’s easy for you to do the training any time, and if you’re sitting facing your dog then less bits of you are available for her to rag, and her attention is more likely to be focused on your hand.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks, can't remember if I said it in past, but puppy is far more relaxed in morning, even napping so I use that time to do what I need i.e emails/pc work.

Would it be better to instead use that time to train her? Or would it be better in afternoon when she has more energy (not evenings though as she has zoomies then)


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

ryouga said:


> Thanks, can't remember if I said it in past, but puppy is far more relaxed in morning, even napping so I use that time to do what I need i.e emails/pc work.
> 
> Would it be better to instead use that time to train her? Or would it be better in afternoon when she has more energy (not evenings though as she has zoomies then)


Puppies have a short attention span, and training is tiring for them. Don’t try to do all your training in one block.
Just take ten minutes, or whatever you judge to be enough before she loses interest, throughout the day, when you have those few minutes to spare.

You should be able to tell by her demeanour whether it’s the right time or not.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Linda Weasel said:


> Puppies have a short attention span, and training is tiring for them. Don’t try to do all your training in one block.
> Just take ten minutes, or whatever you judge to be enough before she loses interest, throughout the day, when you have those few minutes to spare.
> 
> You should be able to tell by her demeanour whether it’s the right time or not.


Great thanks, well what I was doing depending on if its a work day or not was for her breakfast spend around 10 minutes feeding her whilst saying "sit" "down" "leave it" but not sure if thats the best thing I should do as I was using her main food for training.

And at lunchtime I began walking around my flat barefoot, taking 2 or 3 steps whilst saying "wait" (or sit/down first if she moves" then good girl.

Wasn't sure if using her food to train was a good thing.

With her going during the night for at least 1 business (often between 4-6am and sometimes 1-3am for a wee) whats the last time to give her treats?

On a related note I just removed my sofa cushion covers, even with enzyme cleaner, vinegar, and using pet shampoo with a carpet machine there was a slight smell to it, and of course if I can smell it, she can far more so popped them in the machine and added some vinegar to the final rinse so hopefully it will help, I can only do half the sofa at a time but that is probably best.

I moved the half of sofa I was cleaning into other corner of the room and she hasn't even gone near it and instead went on the other half which hasn't had its covers cleaned yet and went there, so I am hoping once they are cleaned she won't feel the need to go there as much if at all.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

What times do you feed her?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

9.30am 1.30pm and 5.30pm (though if it's a kong I can do it around 5pm as it takes time)

She might be constipated, she only started having issues 2 weeks ago and at first I thought she was just getting better at holding it in as she went from about 9am - 10pm without going poop, took her to family and she was the same but relative said he thought she was consipated, next morning she did a poop when she owoke, and after breakfast (to be expected) then 10 minutes later did 2 more on relatives carpet then held it in until about 10pm at night.

Before that she only had a few small accidents a day and she went mostly at specific time slots i.e when she first woke, within a hour after each feed and once in evening, she now has a habit of eating grass which again thinks of consipation.

She also tries to eat pebbles I know last week I found a few each time I picked up her poop.

It may also be a fibre thing, on Tuesday I gave her a trotter as a treat and she actually went outside that evening, Wednesday she went outside once around lunchtime yesterday I gave her another trotter but also a carrot and she actually went outside in evening again and went all night without wanting out (well she wanted a wee around 1am)

I feed her just a dry diet at the moment, Arden Grange kibble and a handful 3 times a day and she has water available though she rarely drinks it (Except in evenings when she goes more)

Or is it something else? When she drinks she does a lot of micro wees i.e drinks a few sips then within 30 minutes does a squat for a second and a trickle comes out, she does do huge wees when she drinks a lot.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

You could try moving her last feed until later, so she can definitely go through the night. You can find out how long your dog’s digestive process takes by putting some sweet corn into one meal and waiting for it to reappear, then use that info to time the last meal.

Constipation is usually measured by if it’s difficult for your dog to pass a poo.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Interesting, I was assuming later meant she would go in middle of night, as if I feed her at 5.30 and she goes about 8.30 unless thats the poop from earlier in the day, when I gave her the carrot yesterday her poop had orange bits in it about 3 hours later.

A few times 2 weeks ago she did squat, do a little, and then spent about a minute or two more squatted and moving a little, at its worst she took about 5 minutes to go whilst squatting.

Indoors she has no problems instantly going.

I hopefully will go to shops today, the weather is terrible so haven't been to town since I got back a few days ago.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

What do her poops look like? Are they hard and pellet like? Or wetish and sausage like? If the former, it could be that she isn't getting enough fluids, so you could try adding some water to her kibble.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

If she's pooping, she isn't constipated.

Constipation is quite unusual in dogs and even more so with a puppy.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thanks well her poops are mostly soft but hard enough to pick up sometimes soft enough its hard to pick up.

Took her to friends last night she was mostly well behaved even though we were eating at most she sat on our laps and stared, the few times she tried biting for attention friend put on a christmas toy that sings and lights up and she ran and hid in corner, she did poop on his kitchen floor though at expected time frame,when she got home she had "super" zoomies likely as she was tired as normally she is napping by then and wouldnt stop biting me or barking.

Today after I washed sofa covers steamed cushions and washed blankets she decided to wee on the sofa again despite me just coming back in from garden.

She also woke me at 1am and weed next to bedroom door and woke me at 6 but did nothing.

Friend told me when he took care of her for 3 days she never once bit him, never once woke him during night so I assume she either is just stuck on routine with me or "training" me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

ryouga said:


> <snip>
> Friend told me when he took care of her for 3 days she never once bit him, never once woke him during night so I assume she either is just stuck on routine with me or "training" me.


Border Collies are usually very intelligent dogs. Could she be brighter than you?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

OrientalSlave said:


> Border Collies are usually very intelligent dogs. Could she be brighter than you?


Ha ha could be, on a non joking note I am mildly autistic so I take a lot of things literally which is probably why I have flawed training with her or get confused as things don't click or make sense which is a big reason I post so much.

EDIT - Wow, good day with her so far, she did have a small wee on sofa this morning but that was because I didn't have time to catch her as was cleaning the living room, but she went mid morning in garden (poop) then took her for a random trip to town on bus, walked her around for about 15 minutes, then got bus half way back and walked the remainder, she did another poop on way back (which is good as since I got her the combined times she has weed or pooped on walks can be counted on 1 hand) and a wee in garden when we got back, then after evening food I quickly rushed her out as noticed recently she goes right after evening meal (but not morning meal) maybe as it takes about 10-30 minutes to eat as its a frozen kong and she did a poop outside!, she is due another around 8pm-9pm going by her pattern recently but right now is chewing a bone, will take her out at 8.30 exactly and see.

Not sure time of final one though as the last few days I have been going to bed between 10.30pm to 11pm and she has gone when I have taken her out just before, but as its Hogmanay I want to stay awake until about 12.15/12.30 she normally naps from about 9pm-- 10.30pm or 11pm and thats when I take her to bed not sure to take her out as routine around 10.30 or wait till right before bed, or both.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

So yesterday was a bit hit and miss, 2 poops in morning ok, but as the day went on she started having accidents so by evening and bedtime she had 1 poop in house and a few wees.

I notice when she goes indoors she also has a zoomie after, I wonder if she is frustrated in a way but when I take her out she doesn't seem to want to go unless I catch her at exact time.

I have picked up her current schedule or there abouts, i.e she goes after evening meal and a 30 minute timeslot between 8.20-8.50pm and once near feed time about 4.30, the rest of day is more random but generally mid morning or lunchtime and maybe in afternoon.

Should she be going so often? This doesn't count the wees she has which can be 10 times or so a day.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Not sure if you’ve tried this but, if she has spot she goes in indoors, could you put a pad/towel down there (so she does it on the pad/towel) and then take it outside so there’s a spot outside that smells of her? It won’t solve the indoor toilet if but it might help her go outside as she’ll want to go where she’s been before. It does sound like she’s going a lot but she is a puppy and they do go more often. 
when she wees is it a small amount of large wee? If it’s a small amount it’s possible she could have a UTI which would make he toilet more frequently.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I did think of using a pad and taking it outside but wasn't sure if that would be backwards but at this point who knows.

A lot of times its either small wees or not huge ones but not small either i.e a small one can be as small as a 50p piece area to like the rim of a mug, more commonly (at least on sofa which may look bigger than it does) its the size of can't remember name but the plate that holds a teacup, 

I also notice she goes pretty much straight away or a few minutes after drinking even if drinking a small amount.

The nighttime ones I think are mostly routine, as up till again around 2 weeks ago she went on her night time trips now she can go out and at most do a quick squat for a wee and come back in until around 7 or 8 am, but even then if I put my arm on her she naps until around 9 so I doubt shes desperate.

When I took her to relatives she went all night without wanting out, same for the 3 nights she spent being looked after by a friend.

Going back a little, a neighbour has some old carpet they have thrown out, I was thinking of cutting into multiple training pads as they can be easily cleaned and also thick enough I can put them outside without getting blown away by wind. Is that a good idea?


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Are you sure some of these wees aren’t nervous or excitement wees?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Interesting, I haven't noticed a pattern she can do it at random or after a zoomie, or when coming in from indoors.

Only pattern I really notice is she goes often a few minutes after she drinks even if its a few sips, however she can drink a lot and then shortly after go just a little.

I also notice she rarely drinks in morning (or poops) She hasn't had any wee accidents on the carpet (except in bedroom) in well over a month she just goes on sofa or rug.

On the topic of going due to being excited, I have noticed she goes both if I am on the phone for a long time (as she gets zoomies when I am on the phone)


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Linda Weasel said:


> Are you sure some of these wees aren’t nervous or excitement wees?


I think you've nailed it. Can't believe it didn't occur to me, I've had several excitement pee-ers. 
Greet and play outside or if it can't be helped on non-porous surfaces. 
Biggest thing, don't react at all, they all grow out of it eventually.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Thats more reassuring as she has far more wee accidents, but I do think she hasn't clicked on the indoor/outdoor thing.

She did a poop outside earlier and I was so happy and a big wee, about a hour and a half later I was getting dinner ready and had to go into bedroom to get something, I noticed she stood by the door and did a wee, so she might of thought thats a ok to go area.

I do have a blanket down as a bed and thats where she goes so maybe thats why too as she thinks its a pad.

She had her terror moments today, I have fed her about 6pm each day for past few days (except last night which was 6pm but my fire alarms went off and she was frightened and hid and didn't eat again until 7,

She still went poop about 8.30pm and then her regular nap.

On another note shes getting very bossy, I am trying the old drop food on rug to get her to calm or when she has a zoomie but now often when I do this she jumps and barks as if to say "more more" so goes from zoomies to barking for food.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I still don't understand why you're trying to stop her from having zoomies. 
I have a 3 year old who still zoomies several times a day, it has never once occurred to me to stop her. I mean, yes, with the great danes there was a no zoomie in the house rule, but I could just open the door and let them tear around outside.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

It's not the zoomies as much as her barking in my ear and biting me I want to stop, she can literally jump beside me and bark in my ear and when having zoomies she can get destructive. I wore a new jumper Tuesday last week and by Saturday the arms were torn so badly.

Earlier she kept barking and wanting into the hall, it wasn't that she wanted to go out as thats a different door and if I let her through door she kept going into kitchen,

Her personality changes every few days or every week at most, shes now starting to go potty outside again (as well as having accidents) I wonder if shes getting to her final teething stage as she stopped chewing furniture about 2 weeks ago, and today randomly was biting the base of desk and part of armchair again and it looks like most of her teeth are in (and it hurts even more again when she bites).

Sigh, she just had a poop indoors in her spot I know she has one around 10.30pm but she did it so fast and the worst part was she also ate the poop so I couldn't clear it.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Are you sure you can cope with a puppy at all?

Everything she does seems to trouble you.

All you describe is normal, puppy behaviour.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Rafa said:


> Are you sure you can cope with a puppy at all?
> 
> Everything she does seems to trouble you.
> 
> All you describe is normal, puppy behaviour.


I am just venting when stressed and worried I am doing things wrong when people say things like she should be well out of it by now so I panic I have screwed up.

Plus I have aspergers/autism so I worry a lot and get confused and take things litreal

Ha ha I guess this is funny, puppy hasn't napped today yet which is likely why she had worse zoomies tonight, she went to pick something up she shouldn't so I quickly rushed to get it and she snuck to where I was sitting and knocked over treat back, luckily I got them in time so she got none.

Shes clever!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Puppies are hard work.

It doesn't sound to me as though you're doing anything wrong, you're doing your best.

Zoomies are completely normal. Just allow her to do it, she won't come to any harm.

Just remember that your puppy will eventually grow out of these behaviours.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Rafa said:


> Puppies are hard work.
> 
> It doesn't sound to me as though you're doing anything wrong, you're doing your best.
> 
> ...


Maybe...!! My two collies, aged 11 and 6, still have mad zoomies most days and particularly this time of year when they don't have access to the garden all day.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

I wonder if zoomies is just a broad description, both collies family owned did get excitement periods and would do things like go by door wanting walks even if it was severe weather and they couldn't go on one and do things like get under your feet, jump on you, even jump on you and lick and in morning if you took into living room and the rest of house was sleeping would slam herself into doors and jump onto their beds bark at them and lick them. etc but in puppys case its puppy type which is biting a lot and barking a lot, the only time they mouthed you is if you played a little "rough" with them on sofa and even then it would stop when you moved arm away.

I would fin the mouthing cute if it didn't hurt and accompany things like barks, pulling etc.

Anyway today was a great success for her toilet behaviour, she did have 1 small wee accident in daytime and 1 poop one around her normal evening time (after I had her outside for at least 10 minutes and she kept jumping at me and biting and wanting lead)

I have somewhat narrowed down her current schedule though it tends to change every 10 days or so (the same times her personality changes)

She goes during the night at least once even if its 7am she can't hold it in any more (even if I feed her at 6pm with a kong that lasts 30 minutes) She does go shortly after waking up though not always outdoors, she also goes about 30-60 minutes after breakfast (that is the difficult one to time) and again about 12.30, then 4.30, then 8.30 (not counting evening meal times where she goes literally after she finishes)

I can plan to take her out at the exact time slot i.e 12.30 to find she goes indoors 15 minutes before, I can take her out early and she doesn't go, I can take her out late and she goes

Came back in and watched her and within a few minutes I saw her jump on sofa.

I forgot to mention what I have done is that large "L" shaped sofa she goes on I have blocked all but one small patch of it off (one side has her crate and a blanket, other is totally blocked off) that way she is just going in one spot and its a spot where no one sits and guests can just remove the boxes I have on the seats if they want to sit.

Friend asked if he could come round today and so I managed to take puppy on a 20 minute or so walk to park, when she goes to park (or walks around town) shorter walks seem to stimulate her more as theres so much to sniff and she gets a lot of attention, when I walk her normally it's around a quiet area and those are the days she gets the worst zoomies.

On a sideish note I still am having mixed problems with her barking, but its basic attention seeking, when I wash dishes or sometimes even cook she barks for attention.

I think I will have a trial of a online trainer until I work out best ways, I don't want to make things hard for myself long term, I just find it a chicken and egg situation, do I deal with potty training first or overall attention as she often doesn't go as shes too excited, or distracted.

Back at work tomorrow (WFH) and doing telephone calls, she still gets in my face barking and biting when I use phone, I can somewhat slow them down if I have her chew something like a bone but that only works for about 20 minutes then shes in my face again, since I mention phone again I normally phone parents twice a week or so for about 45 minutes, she normally has crazy zoomies and near end of that call has an accident, and if she doesn't I take her outside and she does both, so fits with earlier talk of excited pottying.

Oh something else I forgot to mention, shes barking a lot when she is disturbed now, as in she saw a bird in garden and tried pulling me towards it and barking, she saw a cat on our fence at the weekend and barked at it until it went away, and her hearing is so sensitive she barks at small noises. Luckily she has only woke me twice in middle of night when out of nowhere she has heard something and barked then came back to bed.

Really finally this time, a nice dog bed I bought for her months ago, cost me £40 she never lies on it, but if I move it into living room she decides to wee on it, is there a reason for this? I tried simple solution and doggy shampoo with machine on it to get rid of any lingering smell.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Today hasn't been bad in fact most great, - so far! she broke her current routine of poop at 4.30 and 6.30 (after food) instead was about 7.30 I noticed her jump onto sofa and crouch and so I took her outside, took her about 5 minutes to not bne excited before going poop, she did have one big wee on the blanket though, most of the day she was sleeping on my arm whilst I was working, right now shes having a zoomie.

She didnt want out at all last night

I notice probably as expected zoomies normally are right before she goes due to excitement I guess.

I really do seem an improvement but hard to judge until she has hyper zoomies and biting and barking less.

Evening zoomies now have her "smiling" and panting.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Rufus used to get zoomies when he needed a poop. Now he just gets them when he's wound up. We tend to try and stop him as usually he goes a bit OTT and ends up diving on your head or something.... 😅🙈


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Well today was a strange one so far, she did want a wee around 4am and a poop at 8am, I took her back to bed and slept till 9.15 after and gave her breakfast, I expected her to go but she didn't not even at her usual around lunchtime.

Just had a shower and had my smelly underwear on floor and when I got out of shower I found she had pooped on it!

I find it funny that she pooped in the bathroom but is that normal to do it on underwear?


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Last few days mostly ok, took her on a long walk today through park, knew I was expecting a phone call so hoped that would stop the zoomies she gets when I am on a call, as expected she went crazy, I slowed them down with giving her a bone but that only helped so much, and then I lured her onto my lap, put phone on speaker and let the person on other end (relative who has met her before and she likes) speak to her ear and she calmed down and kept wagging her tail more and more! Then puppy decided to nap on my arms for rest of the call and woke about 30 minutes later but put head on my shoulder calmly.

When she heard the phone go off at end of call she perked up and jumped down from my arms and sat beside me.

I don't know if the walk helped or I suddenly have worked out how to calm her on a call.

Either way in past 3 days she is showing signs of improvement, she is 5 months old now and apart from one time Tuesday when I was looking for my shoes and she was excited as friend was here (and she knows when he is here, we go for drive in car and walkies) I can walk barefoot around her and she ignores them.

She is being less forceful when mouthing/having zoomies now can still hurt if she bites a certain area of arm or pinches the skin rather than the arm but overall less force.

Strangely though she is getting a little upset around cats, found one on our fence a few days ago and she was barking at it non stop and pulling me on lead, and a few days later I saw same cat across the road and she again barked and pulled me towards it.

She also now barks and tries to pull me towards birds.

With other dogs shes fine, she is getting unsure around certain dogs though, regardless of size when before she just submitted to all, now she seems to submit more to dogs she already knows and backs off whilst wagging tail with new dogs, but if they back off she walks towards them.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

So I have worked out I have accidently trained the word "settle" to basically mean "calm" or "pay attention"

If I say in in garden and shes trying to bite and drag me to where she wants to go she drops the lead and walks beside me and sits and looks, if shes jumping at me or trying to bite lead out of my hand I say it and she stops and sits down and looks which means going to potty is a little easier though she is having accidents.

She went all night last night from 8.30pm (I took her out at 10.30 but it was stormy so she didn't go) but was restless around 4am when she normally goes out and then restless until I woke at about 8.30am but just did a wee and I kept taking her out till she did it around 9.30 shortly before her breakfast, she then didn't go until a few minutes ago (an accident on her new tray/mat) though was squatting a few times but likely again that was due to the stormy weather.

I didn't get much chance to take her out yesterday due to the weather, after taking her on long walks at the weekend so she must of been bored as she decided to chew furniture a little in evening which she rarely does anymore

Zoomies are getting more tolerable, she really isn't biting feet anymore often and when she does its with little force and quite a few times she has opened mouth put it towards feet then backed off before doing it, she only does things like that now during zoomies and those are getting uncommon now.

Hoping I am out of the worst of it, shes 5 months old now, I even managed to save one of her baby teeth today and put it in a box, shes overall calmer though still loves attention.


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## ryouga (3 mo ago)

Ok, nighttime potty is still difficult, I took her out last night at 10.30pm and she did both though in small amount, she woke up around 2.30am (she does most nights) wanting out and did tiny bits of both (she rarely poops during night unless its closer to 7am) she stirs most nights around 6am but that may be as thats the time downstairs neighbour wakes up and by around 7-8am when its getting light she gets restless and if I turn over in bed she jumps out of bed and goes to door.

Today I decided to let her go to door and see if she would come back to bed, she chewed her wood toy for 10 minutes then did a little pee at the door, and when she saw me she rushed back to bed, I waited a few minutes and took her out just in case that was it out of her system and she did a little pee right when she went outside and another less than a minute later (and then a tiny poop)

She didn't have any water from about 8.30pm last night and most nights as thats around the time she has a nap and wakes when I take her out before I go to bed myself.

Is it just a routine mixed with the fact shes waken by sounds of neighbour at 6am and its getting light.

Also she more and more keeps going to the door to the hall (that leads to bedroom and kitchen) and barking the past week, I don't know if shes telling me she wants food, or to nap but if I open it she goes into kitchen (as that door is open and bedroom door closed) no matter if I am in there a minute or a few minutes I can come back to living room and she runs to door and barks/jumps at it again.


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