# Stud Cat agreement



## bergkamp11 (Jan 10, 2012)

Can anyone give me their views on a situation that I am involved in at the moment. I have two proven fertile stud cats that have never previously mismated. At present I have a female in with one of my boys on a previously written & agreeded signed mating contract. This entitles the female to be here for 4/5 days and to return a further two matings free of charge if unsuccessful. The person cant bring the cat to me, so a agreement was made for the cost of fuel that I collect/return the cat, which I have done on each occaision. At this present time the female is here on her third visit & has been here for a total of nine days. She has now stopped calling & my male has stopped showing any intimate interest in her. The owner has accused my cat of being infertile, as to why her female hasnt fallen pregnant. Yet I have a female I own who has a litter due next week from the same male that is involved in this mating agreement. The owner of the female is insisting that the female remains with me until she falls pregnant free of charge. I disagree with this as I have completed my side of the agreement. The female has been here three times for a total of 24days. I think that the female might very well have a fertility problem which is stopping her from conceiving. The owner totally disagees with this saying that its my cat with the problem & she feels that I am breaking the contract by not keeping her here til she is pregnant. I have offered for the female to remain with me for a small boarding fee of £30 pw. She claims this is outragous & that I am trying to rip her off? She hasnt considered the four hours of my time on each return trip to collect/return her cat. What more should I do?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I totally agree with a boarding fee if the owner wishes the cat to remain with you but that in itself can cause issues. You don't know she isn't pregnant at this point so why does the owner want her to stay? There are rarely the same signs of a cat coming into call if she's in with the male so if you do controlled matings you could miss the chance and if you intend to leave them together you may not know matings have taken place. This means you could have that cat until you notice her pink up, at which point it isn't so good for her to travel.

You have fulfilled the terms of the contract. Stud fees are for the service, not results.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Have you witnessed successful matings on any of her visits?


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

has her female previously had a litter?

I think you've already gone above and beyond normal levels of help for this owner. 
Mating fees usually are for the service, not for a guaranteed healthy kitten. 

Personally in this situation (seeing as your male is fertile) and you've presumably observed matings taking place I'd ask her to come and get the cat immediately, or deliver it back her. Keeping the cat till it is confirmed pregnant was not part of your originaly contract and you've had it in 3 times already, service certainly provided for the fee.

Maybe you could offer to refund part of the fee if the cat isn't pregnant (minus expenses), although as you've driven the cat around and housed/fed her for a significant amount of time, so unless the fee was very large I doubt she'd be getting a lot back, but this would be as a gesture of good will, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of that here.

Makes me glad stud fees for birmans are comparably low!

Breeding/showing is a gamble, nothing is guaranteed, and sometimes things just don't work out, there's no-one at 'fault'.


Emma


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## bergkamp11 (Jan 10, 2012)

Thank you for your comments. I have witnessed her being mated numerious times over the past eight days. even witnessed by a young couple who visited to see my cats. The female has been witnessed being mated on all three occaissions that she has been here.
I have trouble explaining to the owner that my stud boy has successfully mated the female on all three occaisions. That if the female has failed to fall pregnant it isnt a result of my stud boy. The male is a proven stud boy & has successfully mated several females.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I think you need to apply the letter of the contract. She's had her dues. Maybe try a different stud, maybe the female is infertile but this isn't your problem. When Minnii was well and we breed from her we took her to the same stud twice - no kittens - now the stud owners didn't charge us a fee because no kittens resulted (not sure if you are still charging a fee anyway) and advised us to take her to a different stud which she did and she got pregnant. Then for her second litter we took her back to the first stud (cos we liked him so much) and this time she fell pregnant. No hassle. 

I think maybe (and I haven't used that many stud services) that maybe if the cat doesn't fall pregnant despite many matings and the stud is proven then don't charge her a full fee - just deduct expenses - like the petrol, food, heating etc. 

This isn't your problem it's hers, you have a written contract and you are willing to keep the cat. In the case of my girl again, I left her there for two weeks on the second attempt and I provided all her food etc as I felt bad about imposing. 

I understand that stud fees can be high, and that it's frustrating when your cat doesn't get pregnant but . . . . that's life.


Put it this way - if she isn't careful you won't be having ANY of her queens back at ANY point will you?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Then I completely agree with the above posts; you've done everything you possibly can - above and beyond really. I would return her to her owner.

I have, on a few occasions, offered to take into stud another queen belonging to the owner when it has become clear that the 'original' queen isn't conceiving to my (proven) stud and obviously has fertility problems and the stud fee has been paid and 'lost'. But you might feel that your 'relationship' with this person has deteriorated beyond the point of you wanting to help further.. and I wouldn't blame you one bit.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

You have completed your part of the deal and now RUN. Get away from this breeder as soon as you can. This one smells trouble. Don't get yourself any more involved.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have, on a few occasions, offered to take into stud another queen belonging to the owner when it has become clear that the 'original' queen isn't conceiving to my (proven) stud


This is a very reasonable compromise and something I have done myself. However, Cerridwen's post above strikes a chord with me and is exactly what has been going through my mind. It's my experience that the more you bend over backwards to try and accommodate an unreasonably demanding person, the more they will never be satisfied.


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## Suzanne1973 (Jan 14, 2012)

Can I ask what breed the cat is?

I had a similar problem with my active queen. We took her in to stud and had the same problem no results. We still paid the price for stud fees twice.

She went back to one of the studs twice still nothing. 
We was told when we bought her that she had already had a litter.

My queen is a exotic persian and have been speaking to several people that also have had problems with the breed and the mating process.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I have to say that I think the owner of the queen is being totally unreasonable and you have done your best to accommodate her. It does sound as if she wouldn't be happy with whatever you suggested. 
As with any mating, whatever animal, there are no guarantees at the end of the day.
I would suggest that she tries a different stud but tell her that it still might not result in pregnancy. If it was my queen I'd be looking at reasons why she might not have conceived not blaming the owner of a proven stud.


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## bergkamp11 (Jan 10, 2012)

All of your comments and replys have been very helpful thankyou. I was beginning to pull my hair out with frustration as to what i should offer to do for her next. She is accusing me of being a con and everything im doing is wrong. Ive tried without success to explain that her girl has been mated each time and that my boy is doing his job. I dont like to upset anybody but im at a loss with the abuse and accusations shes throwing at me. She has said the she has rung other breeders complaining that my cat is not doing his job and apparently been told by all the breeders that she has spoken to that they only charge a stud fee on pregnancy? I havent as yet ever had a girl that has used my boy fail to have kittens. She is here at the moment for her 3rd mating and has come out of season. What are your views on when a stud fee should be paid? My breed is BSH.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

The agreement I have with the owner of the stud that I use is one free mating if the first is unsuccessful. I am quite happy with that arrangement - she has a choice of three studs and if I want I can use a different one if a second mating is required.
So far I've only had to take my younger girl back - she was a maiden, only 10 months old and near the end of a call by the time I could get her to the stud - so entirely my fault that she didn't conceive the first time. Her kittens her now due mid February from the original stud.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I would expect to pay a stud fee if my female had been witnessed mating with the male multiple times. However, I can understand why some folks, particularly new breeders, would be miffed if they were charged a stud fee if a pregnancy didn't result. That being said, you did have a contract with her which you've fulfilled, and if she didn't like the contract, she should never have agreed to it in the beginning. Has this queen had other litters or is she an unproven queen? I think if she too is proven, then it might be a goodwill gesture to refund part of her fee. Even if the queen isn't proven it might still be a goodwill gesture, but as you've fulfilled your contract, this is at your own discression.

If I was in your situation I would refund her the fee minus expenses for time, food, heating etc, but only if I hadn't had to turn away another queen because her girl was with my boy already. This way, neither of you loses anything. You've been compensated for your input, and she's been compensated for the fact that her girl didn't conceive. Everyone wins, and nobody gets talked about.


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## bergkamp11 (Jan 10, 2012)

I do have 2 males, both have good lines and i did offer her to use the other boy when she insisted that my boy wasnt doing his job. She turned this offer down insisting that she stuck with the same boy.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> apparently been told by all the breeders that she has spoken to that they only charge a stud fee on pregnancy


So why didn't she go to them? You gotta wonder.


> What are your views on when a stud fee should be paid?


Traditionally the stud fee is payable when the queen is first taken to the stud ie in advance. It's not something I'd enforce with breeders I know but most are very diligent in handing over that envelope along with their queen.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If I was in your situation I would refund her the fee minus expenses for time, food, heating etc, but only if I hadn't had to turn away another queen because her girl was with my boy already.


There was a time when I might have done too  I certainly wouldn't with this one. She's had the service and doesn't want to pay for it. She doesn't even know her cat isn't pregnant for goodness sake.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Because I have been on the stud side of it and know how awful it can be going to stud and not have a girl get into kitten  lose money as its 'only 1 try next try half price' or '2 trys and thats it' If its a girls first time going to the vet for snap test then the studs, well, they are normally very stressed! and take a while to settle...then have to leave!! :001_unsure:

So Now I have my own stud I let them settle for 2days then say they can stay a week, more if I dont witness a mating, or the owner can bring them back or let them stay - I dont charge board thats part of the mating in my eyes, I was once charged 'board' £150 for 4 weeks, I wasnt happy!! Flipping cats dont eat that, already paid a £400 stud fee! 

I do that as I had a bengal who was SO frightened of the car that she would shake/wee/poop/scream, when we got to the stud she would hide for days in stress, after the 2nd time of leaving her the stud owner kindly kept her for 6weeks, and hs boy got her when she called while there - stress free :laugh:

As her cat has been mated 3 times, Id say that its time for the vets if your boy is proven, my boy has never missed, but then I had a girl who took 2 times, a mainden, which is normaly Ive had maidens take 2-3times! 

Her cat may have a infection or reabsorbed and a course of anti'bs will do the trick, or she may just be infertile (been there aswell!) 

Not sure why she doesnt understand that concept, I do wonder what these people expect sometimes! I also only pay after the first mating, dont like doing it before the cats have mated.


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## bergkamp11 (Jan 10, 2012)

no her girl has never had a litter before. She is coming up to 2 years old. I have had to postpone another breeder that wished to use my boy. The breeder that i had to postpone has used my boy before last year which resulted in a litter of 6.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I suppose it depends on the size of the fee - for RagaMuffins I will be looking at a £450 stud fee - if my girl didn't become pregnant I don't think I would be very happy if the breeder kept all of that. However, for my Birman the fee was £150 and the breeder kept only £50 when she failed to become pregnant for costs. However, had she kept it all it wouldn't have been too hard a blow. 

I suppose you have a choice all depending on how well you know your reputation is safe. Either refund her some of the fee if it is a large fee. Or offer her your other boy. Or ignore her now. Personally, she sounds like a trouble maker, she won't deliver the girl herself (therefore she can't see the matings happen if they do it in front of her, other than filming it what can you do?), she has refused the offer of your other boy and is intent on badmouthing you. 

Personally, I would now make her come and fetch her cat, and go away. Whter you refund some of the fee is up to you.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

bergkamp11 said:


> no her girl has never had a litter before. She is coming up to 2 years old. I have had to postpone another breeder that wished to use my boy. The breeder that i had to postpone has used my boy before last year which resulted in a litter of 6.


well that is rather late unless she has been a late caller? I would put it in your contract that if after a certain amount of times (I state 6 months) if the queen isnt in kitten then they must take her to the vet.

I dont think you should refund you have done your end of the deal, Ive been on the other side of that aswell and lost my money, was annoyed but the stud did his job and they fullfilled their contract, not alot you can do if the boys proven and your girl doesnt get in kitten. In my case the girl was infertile.

When was the last time her girl was with you? How does she know that she isnt in kitten this time? Oh and for proof I film & take pics of my boy mating, I was very dubious about one stud that I visited, he was never interested and I lost £400 as they only gave me '2 goes' (told me after I left this was the 'deal' ) girl went in full call and when she went he just jumped away, they couldnt witness him mating due to his house, never got in kitten, went to a different stud mated her as soon as she went in, got in kitten! Found out they sold that boy after...! So I like to prove my boy has mated, plus the kittens are good proof to lol :laugh:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I charge a £200 stud fee and have only ever had two cats who needed to return as they weren't pregnant. I do controlled matings and never leave the property unoccupied when there is a visiting queen - not even just to nip down to the Post Office or the like. I give the visiting queens the sort of attention and affection I'd like mine to have and most stay about a week, not because it's completely necessary but because many owners find it more convenient to pick up at a weekend. It takes a great deal of my time and a lot of organisation. I'd be pretty offended if anyone thought they should have their money back because their girl didn't conceive.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havoc said:


> I charge a £200 stud fee and have only ever had two cats who needed to return as they weren't pregnant. I do controlled matings and never leave the property unoccupied when there is a visiting queen - not even just to nip down to the Post Office or the like. I give the visiting queens the sort of attention and affection I'd like mine to have and most stay about a week, not because it's completely necessary but because many owners find it more convenient to pick up at a weekend. It takes a great deal of my time and a lot of organisation. I'd be pretty offended if anyone thought they should have their money back because their girl didn't conceive.


same here! I was always a little sad leaving my girls as some of them never stroked them, just left them to it, but I love hugging them and stroking them if they want me to lol!  in the end they end up snuggling to my boy its lovely to watch and wantinh attention and talking to me, it is stressful though!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> This is a very reasonable compromise and something I have done myself. However, Cerridwen's post above strikes a chord with me and is exactly what has been going through my mind. It's my experience that the more you bend over backwards to try and accommodate an unreasonably demanding person, the more they will never be satisfied.


I'd hasten to add that I have only offered this to nice, reasonable people. In the case of the person the OP is referring to - no. And I too would run away from this one pdq.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Hmm, I must have been lucky with Minnii - however. . . .no matings were witnessed - so the stud might not have done his job - so I suppose that is different. When we went back the third time again no matings were witness and the stud owner refused to take the money even though I wanted to give it to her anyway. Once we confirmed pregnancy it was obvious he had indeed managed the deed and so I sent her the money asap. I expect with lots of witnessed matings it is a completely different matter. If I'd been the queens owner I'd have used to other boy just to see. And I would always assume it was my queen if she was a maiden that had the problem not the stud.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

OP tell her to jog on - you have fulfilled your side of the bargain.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I see your back then op,what happened in the end?


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

You have done more than enough, when we take our girls to studs the owners have always been very nice and looked after our girls well but if any of them didn't get pregnant and they offered a second mating for free we wouldn't expect any more than that if she didn't get pregnant a second time and we would have tests done to find out why she wasn't getting pregnant with a view of getting her spayed.
I am just grateful that there are people out there who will let people like me with just queens use their studs and look after our girlies while they are in their care. I think it must be a big responsibility and I appreciate it very much.
This lady seems to want more than her fair share from you, you can't do any more than you have done already.


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