# Do you not think there is enough.........?



## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

Right let me get this sorted first I AM NOT HAVING A GO AT ANYONE but I am on a lot of cat forums and I have asked this question everywhere, I have noticed that there are a lot of pregnant moggies about and the rescue places are teeming with cats young and old, I personally get my females spayed as soon as they are old enough so have never had kittens and really respect the work that they are doing so it peeves me immensly when i see how many moggies are pregnant.
Can someone explain to me why this seems to be happening to so called well loved pets?


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

Well although I am well aware some people on this forum are very critical of my situation, I will explain it anyway.
My kitten Roxy (now around 7 months old) got pregnant at 3 1/2 months old, this is far younger than any vet in my area is willing to spay (generally about 6 months).

Although my kitten was taken into the garden, she was supervised at all times, I did however catch a local Tom in my house, I guess he came in through the window, so I think we can make a safe assumption as to who got her pregnant. At the time I did not think anything of it, as the advice on the RSPCA website was that cats were not sexually mature at this age anyway.

We did not even realise she was pregnant until she was about 6 weeks gone and due to her size the vet was not prepared to spay at this late stage. She said the early spring may have contributed to her 'advanced sexual maturity' but to be honnest the vet was fairly shocked it had happend.
In fact most vets I rang to try and get advice before I got an appointment thought I was crazy and kept telling me she just had worms.

For added complications, I also have Roxys two brothers, the vet also said to me, that to be honnest, if Roxy was this far advanced, he brothers may well have been too, so if the local Tom hadn't got to her, they may have.

I was advised to sit back and enjoy the pregnancy.

I am well aware of the over population of cats, but the thing that puts me off, is that I find it sooo hard to give my kittens up, I have been very lucky to be able to give these ones to people I know, I really don't think I could give them up to strangers.

However, I do not feel the vets are on our side. The reason I say this is because after I found out Roxy was pregnant, I got on the phone to several vets wanting to get my boys done before Roxy was 'ready' again. As the boys were still only about 5 months old at this point, I could not find a Vet will to neuter them. I was forced to wait till they were about 5 1/2 months old, (about a week before Roxy gave birth) before anyone would neuter them.

Unfortunatly we lost one of the newborns at 8 days old as he was born with a cleft pallet, but you will be pleased to know all 4 of Roxys remaining kittens are doing great and Roxy is booked in to be spayed on Friday.


----------



## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

Congrats on the kittens hun, see I understand accidents and things like that happen im not deluded in that respect 
But some people breed moggies and thats what peeves me to be honest and i dont want to come across as someone who is higher than thou if u understand xx


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

Yep I understand 
I would never have bred Roxy on purpose, was just a bit nieve.


----------



## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Lots of reasons Jem-mostly ignorance and also the " Aah i want kittens" syndrome til they realise all the other necessities involved and the playfulness of kittens doesn't always bold well with the decor,a million and 2 reasons and of course when reality sets in..dump them out on their ear or drop them at cat rescue-coz they always have the solution and resources-notThis is a debate that is on going and people-i for one-feel extremely passionate and strong about so maybe with the help and advice etc on forums such as this-educating may make people stop and think more about being responsible instead of other factors


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

Yeah I have to agree with you kel. Maybe more infomation/publications even exagerated (if thats allowed) would help. Until I joined this forum, it was leaflets and other publications that I relied upon, I don't suppose I am the only one.


----------



## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

Siamese Kelly said:


> Lots of reasons Jem-mostly ignorance and also the " Aah i want kittens" syndrome til they realise all the other necessities involved and the playfulness of kittens doesn't always bold well with the decor,a million and 2 reasons and of course when reality sets in..dump them out on their ear or drop them at cat rescue-coz they always have the solution and resources-notThis is a debate that is on going and people-i for one-feel extremely passionate and strong about so maybe with the help and advice etc on forums such as this-educating may make people stop and think more about being responsible instead of other factors


my older 2 are spayed but they do go out and i've got a funny feeling they put it about  cos they come in all happy n loving and i reckon if they weren't spayed both would have had 2 litters if not more by now  and i personally wouldn't be able to cope with that many kittens running round the house so i do kind of understand why people do it but then saying that so many rescue centre's help out wit spaying etc now so really there is no excuse but then this is just IMO


----------



## cats4eva (Mar 21, 2008)

I think alot of the time it can be ignorance to getting cats spayed (they know but they dont do it) and alot of the time it is because even though we are talking cats and not mathmatics people dont understand fully about cats gettting pregnant/calling and everything else that goes with it.


----------



## cats4eva (Mar 21, 2008)

PS: What does IMO mean


----------



## Sungold-Bengals (Mar 10, 2008)

cats4eva said:


> PS: What does IMO mean


in my opinion


----------



## cats4eva (Mar 21, 2008)

Sungold-Bengals said:


> in my opinion [/QUOTE
> 
> IMO I SAY TYVM SG
> l


----------



## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

As most of you on here know i ended upwith a kitten due to some nice person dumping her in a box on my door step. This was obviously from a litter that couldnt find homes . She will be spayed as soon as she is old enough.Im in total agreement with you jem there are 2 many unwanted cats around. As much as i would love kittens around to enjoy watching as they grow and let my kids have the same experiances as me when i was growing up. All my cats are done at 6 months as soon as they are old enough


----------



## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

To be fair to Helz, she tried to get some help from vets and they were unwilling / would not listen to her. 

Also, many vets are of the opinion that it is detrimental to a cat's health to spay very early. These vets, imho, are misguided and have not read the most recent research which shows that to neuter a cat will not harm the feline. 

A possible reason why they may demur is that to neuter a cat of less than 6 months is a more fiddly/complicated procedure than operating on a larger kitten - it is possible that they may not have the ncessary skill in their practise.


----------



## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

snowy said:


> As most of you on here know i ended upwith a kitten due to some nice person dumping her in a box on my door step. This was obviously from a litter that couldnt find homes . She will be spayed as soon as she is old enough.Im in total agreement with you jem there are 2 many unwanted cats around. As much as i would love kittens around to enjoy watching as they grow and let my kids have the same experiances as me when i was growing up. All my cats are done at 6 months as soon as they are old enough


Well done for giving the poor kitten a loving home. 
I also agree that there are far too many kittens being bred (and mostly for all the wrong reasons). What really concerns me is the fact that many people that are breeding, whether it be intentionally or not, are completely unaware of what is going on with their pregnant cat and how to deal with the situation. IMO if you let an unspeyed female to free roam then you must surely know that she is likely to become pregnant sooner or later??!!!% and you can't put that down to ignorance year after year.

Yes there are forums such as this where you can get good advice from experienced breeders and it's a good thing in one respect, as long as it's not a substitute for professional advice from a vet.


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

Angeli said:


> Yes there are forums such as this where you can get good advice from experienced breeders and it's a good thing in one respect, as long as it's not a substitute for professional advice from a vet.


I seeked both advice from my (and other local) vets as well as advice from breeders online and I must say there was an awful lot of contradictions. Its hard to know whos advice to follow.


----------



## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

helz said:


> I seeked both advice from my (and other local) vets as well as advice from breeders online and I must say there was an awful lot of contradictions. Its hard to know whos advice to follow.


Yes I can imagine your vet being unwilling to spey at an early age. A lot of the vets need to be willing to do more research into early speying and update their practices regularly. There are too many vets out there that think they have to be in control all of the time.  and that doesn't help with the problem of dealing with unwanted kittens.


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Its probably a naive view, but I am always surprised that there are such alot of unneutered males around. Baring in mind they are potentially have very antisocial habits, I would have thought that most people would have their boys neutered asap. 

If unneutered boys were few and far between, girls could be spayed as and when.


----------



## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Its probably a naive view, but I am always surprised that there are such alot of unneutered males around. Baring in mind they are potentially have very antisocial habits, I would have thought that most people would have their boys neutered asap.
> 
> If unneutered boys were few and far between, girls could be spayed as and when.


Oh dear yes. How some people put up with a spraying entire male in the house is beyond me.
I have heard some people saying that it's cruel to neuter a male cat  must be a male insecurity dominating that thought.


----------



## Sungold-Bengals (Mar 10, 2008)

cats4eva said:


> IMO I SAY TYVM SG
> l


you are very welcome!


----------



## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

Indeed, Kim is right - probably less complicated, less invasive, quicker and cheaper to neuter the male kitten before he develops the well known bad habits. The only argument for not doing so is perhaps in the case of a kitten whose 'testes' have not fully developed / dropped.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jem85 said:


> Right let me get this sorted first I AM NOT HAVING A GO AT ANYONE but I am on a lot of cat forums and I have asked this question everywhere, I have noticed that there are a lot of pregnant moggies about and the rescue places are teeming with cats young and old, I personally get my females spayed as soon as they are old enough so have never had kittens and really respect the work that they are doing so it peeves me immensly when i see how many moggies are pregnant.
> Can someone explain to me why this seems to be happening to so called well loved pets?


I think the explanation is very simple. In many parts of the country it is actually quite difficult to find kittens - at least, it WAS. So people start breeding moggies because they see no problem in homing tham and perhaps they might even make a few quid, or at least break even. Internet advertising is free and earlier in the year there were moggies being sold for silly prices, well over £100 each.

Only now the economy has crashed, people are moving into rented accommodation, or emigrating, and suddenly the rescue cntres are overflowing so that supply now seems to be exceeding demand - at least at the present prices. Of coruse it will correct itself eventually, the price of moggies will plummet and people will go back to having their cats spayed because the kittens are now an expense and a worry. But this year it seems to be pretty bad.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> My kitten Roxy (now around 7 months old) got pregnant at 3 1/2 months old.


Good heavens! 

There's no possibility that you were told she was a lot younger than she actually was when you got her?

Liz


----------



## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

I disagree Liz in that explanations for a surge of unwanted cats/kittens is solely down to those reasons although at this moment in time probably-as a lot of sad peeps do see pound signs with furAnd these peeps and the like absolutely pollute these wonderful creatures and drain any charities which has been and will always be an on going problem-even though our country is supposed to be a nation of animal lovers


----------



## Janee (May 4, 2008)

I think it mightbe the cost of spaying a kitten. 

We are talking £100+ and people would rather leave things as nature intended than pay up.


----------



## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

In my eyes its not excuse at all, if u dont want to spay or neuter there are 2 options.
1 - Get a rescue thats already done
2 - Dont get one at all


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

lizward said:


> Good heavens!
> 
> There's no possibility that you were told she was a lot younger than she actually was when you got her?
> 
> Liz


There is a possibility that the woman I got her from lied, but the vet certainly thought she looked her age.


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

Siamese Kelly said:


> I disagree Liz in that explanations for a surge of unwanted cats/kittens is solely down to those reasons although at this moment in time probably-as a lot of sad peeps do see pound signs with furAnd these peeps and the like absolutely pollute these wonderful creatures and drain any charities which has been and will always be an on going problem-even though our country is supposed to be a nation of animal lovers


I agree with you Kel, the problem of unwanted cats and kittens and an over population in our rescue centres is not a new one and has very little if anything to do with the economy.
For one thing the rescue centres were still full to the brim even when times are good and many of these unwanted pets are available for free.


----------



## Lumpy (Jun 5, 2008)

Janee said:


> I think it mightbe the cost of spaying a kitten.
> 
> We are talking £100+ and people would rather leave things as nature intended than pay up.


I had Tabitha spayed last week and it cost me £87 which included the cost of microchipping her which I was told was £25.

I had Tigger (her brother) done when he was five and a half months as I was so worried she would have kittens by him. I intended her to have one litter (which I know some will disagree with as she is a moggie but I knew I would keep two and I have close friends who are giving forever homes to the other three. If for any reason they are ever unable to keep them I have asked that I have them back. I would hate any of my fur babies to end up in a rescue centre.)

At the time Tigger needed neutering finances were particularly tight (won't bore you with the details) and I got him done via an animal charity and it just cost £15. I was totally honest with them and said that I did work two jobs and wasn't on any sort of benefits but they were happy to help. A female spayed through them costs £20 but as things are a bit easier now (otherwise I wouldn't have had more kittens) I had Tabitha done at my own vet.

I think there is help out there for people to have their pets neutered but maybe not everyone is aware of it.

Lumps


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> For one thing the rescue centres were still full to the brim even when times are good


But not with kittens.

You only have to go back 30-40 years or so to remember the times when certain classes of people still routinely drowned kittens and others offered them free to good homes. Those days have gone. These days kittens don't often get given away. That has to mean that the supply / demand situation changed. Now this year it seems to be switching again - or perhaps it's always like this at the height of summer and it will take another couple of years to switch back to supply outstripping demand, but that seems to be the way we are heading at the moment.

Liz


----------



## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> But not with kittens.
> 
> You only have to go back 30-40 years or so to remember the times when certain classes of people still routinely drowned kittens and others offered them free to good homes. Those days have gone. These days kittens don't often get given away. That has to mean that the supply / demand situation changed. Now this year it seems to be switching again - or perhaps it's always like this at the height of summer and it will take another couple of years to switch back to supply outstripping demand, but that seems to be the way we are heading at the moment.
> 
> Liz


How can you say this Liz,seriously? Of course with kittens-drowning kittens and adult cats and giving them away has always happened and worse-those days have never been gone and because of the economy crisis this along with issues such as this are being highlighted-and i know this is your opinion but what classes of people are you referring to?Summer is a bad time as are the rest of the seasons-for rescue centres,have to say not having a dig at you just trying to understand what on earth made you come to this conclusion


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

There are plenty of kittens in rescue centres; take a walk down to your local shelter and you will see them. Yes they tend to get adopted quickly, but every time a kitten gets adopted from a rescue centre, a cat is left without a home. If there was not such an influx in kittens, people may be more likely to take on an older cat.

Also, to have an older cat it had to be a kitten first. Part of the problem is too many people letting their cats have kittens and because there are so many kittens around, the owners of the kittens generally let them go to anyone that will have them, without properly vetting them first.
The people that took on the kittens gets bored or annoyed with it as it gets older and gives it up for rescue. If there were not so many kittens being born, then every Tom, Dick and Harry would not be able to get a kitten without thinking it through, therefore the forever home for cats/kittens would more likely be just that, a forever home.


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

Well then big rescue places need to start spaying and neutering kittens so the cycle will stop, Otherwise this will always happen and older cats will be left on the shelf


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Siamese Kelly said:


> How can you say this Liz,seriously? Of course with kittens-drowning kittens and adult cats and giving them away has always happened and worse-those days have never been gone


Surely there is very little kitten drowning these days. It used to be the norm. These days it's unnecessary and abhorrent to most people.



> and because of the economy crisis this along with issues such as this are being highlighted-and i know this is your opinion but what classes of people are you referring to?


As I said I was going back 30-40 years. At that time, whether you had your cat spayed, or drowned the kittens, depended on your household income and what you had been brought up with. Just have a read of the books that were around at the time for cat breeders. Or perhaps not, it's rather traumatic. These days the RSPCA and other rescues (I am not suggesting all of them) routinely abort kittens even in very late pregnancy, which as far as I am concerned is no better, but the average moggie owner isn't drowning ktitens any more. Rescues are able to be very fussy indeed about who they home a kitten to, and (fortunately) you don't often see kittens in pet shops. Things have changed.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> If there were not so many kittens being born, then every Tom, Dick and Harry would not be able to get a kitten without thinking it through, therefore the forever home for cats/kittens would more likely be just that, a forever home.


I'm not sure it's that simple. Just take a look on pets4homes any day to see how many people take on kittens, even pedigree ones, and then put them up for rehoming just a few weeks later because they have suddenly realised they work or are having a baby or are moving house  Pedigrees are not exempt - as another thread on this board proves!

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jem85 said:


> Well then big rescue places need to start spaying and neutering kittens so the cycle will stop, Otherwise this will always happen and older cats will be left on the shelf


Early neutering would seem to make a lot of sense for rescues.

Liz


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

lizward said:


> I'm not sure it's that simple. Just take a look on pets4homes any day to see how many people take on kittens, even pedigree ones, and then put them up for rehoming just a few weeks later because they have suddenly realised they work or are having a baby or are moving house  Pedigrees are not exempt - as another thread on this board proves!
> 
> Liz


That statement just backs up my point.
Because there is an influx, people are buying cats/kittens without thinking it though and then getting rid of them.

Have I missed your point here Liz?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> That statement just backs up my point.
> Because there is an influx, people are buying cats/kittens without thinking it though and then getting rid of them.
> 
> Have I missed your point here Liz?


It's just that I don't see that making it harder to obtain a kitten actually affects anything, that's all. People can put on a very convincing act and are happy to spend money on things they are going to throw away.

Liz


----------



## helz (May 24, 2008)

lizward said:


> It's just that I don't see that making it harder to obtain a kitten actually affects anything, that's all. People can put on a very convincing act and are happy to spend money on things they are going to throw away.
> 
> Liz


Well the reason I think this is because with so many kittens around, people cannot be so choosey about who they sell/give to. Its what you might call a buyers market.
Yes there are always going to be people that lie about their interests, but generally fewer would get through the net.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

in my oppion i think the vets should lower the price of neautering cats, and dogs,i do believe its the price the vets charge that plays a big part in this problem.


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> in my oppion i think the vets should lower the price of neautering cats, and dogs,i do believe its the price the vets charge that plays a big part in this problem.


defintly agree on that hun x


----------



## scampsmum (Jul 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> in my oppion i think the vets should lower the price of neautering cats, and dogs,i do believe its the price the vets charge that plays a big part in this problem.


I ditto that, infact i think they should do it free for male cats full stop and anybody found not to have had their Tom done should be fined and made to have it neutered


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

scampsmum said:


> I ditto that, infact i think they should do it free for male cats full stop and anybody found not to have had their Tom done should be fined and made to have it neutered


why just the males??? it takes 2 ta tango as they say...i think it should be the same for both sexes then maybe we wouldnt be over ran wiv moggis left rite and centre.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> why just the males??? it takes 2 ta tango as they say...i think it should be the same for both sexes then maybe we wouldnt be over ran wiv moggis left rite and centre.


i dont know what it costs to have a cat neautured but a toy poodle is £118.85
and to think they go by weight...its a rip off...


----------



## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

It only cost £30 to get Alfie neutered..

Not sure on Lola as her breeder got her spayed before I brought her home


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> i dont know what it costs to have a cat neautured but a toy poodle is £118.85
> and to think they go by weight...its a rip off...


deffo a bloody rip off...and they wonder why we are over ran wiv mogs 

then agan..some people are asbad breeding moggies.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bee112 said:


> It only cost £30 to get Alfie neutered..
> 
> Not sure on Lola as her breeder got her spayed before I brought her home


now i think thats a reasonable price..


----------



## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

yeh so there's really no excuse people not getting their cats neutered


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

bee112 said:


> yeh so there's really no excuse people not getting their cats neutered


half the time they don care...all they see is easy money...lets face it...5 kittys in a litter can easy fetch 5 ta 600 no probs...even upto 8 hundred for 5 moggies going by the prices they are going for today.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bee112 said:


> yeh so there's really no excuse people not getting their cats neutered


but i'd like to see that applied to dogs as well
i think vets have a lot to answer for on this subject.


----------



## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

whaaat? all the Moggies we have had in the past have been free!!


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

bee112 said:


> whaaat? all the Moggies we have had in the past have been free!!


Look on free adds and loot and gumtree and viva street... look at the prices of some of the kitten moggies on there and see wat they are going for.

it will make ya jaw hit the deck.

take this for instance...they are moggies at the end of the day.. >>> Exotic X Kittens W.G.C Pets pet accessories for sale London


----------



## TiffanyLouise (Jul 23, 2008)

bee112 said:


> It only cost £30 to get Alfie neutered..
> 
> Not sure on Lola as her breeder got her spayed before I brought her home


That was cheap!
My boys cost me £50 each and that was a year ago


----------



## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

TiffanyLouise said:


> That was cheap!
> My boys cost me £50 each and that was a year ago


Yeh I use Vets4Pets, they have reasonable prices, only £10 a vacc too 

Loe, just checked out that add.. that just says to me that people are buying a pedigree queen and letting her mate with any old tom then making money out of the "exotic x breed kittens"

People making money out of animals is disgusting in my opinion


----------



## felineadorer (Jun 12, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> in my oppion i think the vets should lower the price of neautering cats, and dogs,i do believe its the price the vets charge that plays a big part in this problem.


I agree it's expensive to spay/ neuter a cat but really if someone can't afford it then they shouldn't have a cat.

After all , vets are businesses, not charities , they will charge for what is essentially a surgical procedure.

When I was growing up all our animals were spayed and neutered, I wouldn't dream of having a cat and not getting it done - of course accidents do happen if cats go into season very young as what happened to Helz.

Unfortunately the cat situation in Ireland is just as bad if not worse , it's actually something I feel very strongly about .


----------

