# Our Dog has bit the postman



## Chris BS (Apr 26, 2016)

Upon delivering a parcel, my wife opened the door whilst holding our 1 year old Komondor back who was barking at the postman. He passed a package over the dogs head, to which, as his arm came in through the door, the dog panicked and bit out. The bite was minimal, but enough to draw a small amount of blood on the edge of his wrist. The postman has said he will need to write a report and post to our address will be stopped. My wife is completely beside herself with fear of having to pay thousands of pounds in court fees or termination of our dog. We dont know what to do....can anyone offer any advice and what can we expect to happen?? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Chris.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

http://doglaw.co.uk

I would seek professional advice, given the changes in law...


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## LoopyL (Jun 16, 2015)

Contact Doglaw asap & check your house contents policy as fees may well be covered


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Try these people for advice
http://doglaw.co.uk/index.php/pitbull/


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Ring Trevor Cooper (specialist solicitor) Dog Law

*
doglaw*.co.uk/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

In addition to contacting dog law please come up with a management strategy for keeping your dog away from the door when answering it. We have a drill in our house - door bell rings or we hear someone coming along the path - all 3 dogs are shut away in the lounge and under no circumstances is the door opened until they are all contained. Sometimes that means I call out for the person to wait. I also have a high baby gate on the kitchen so the dogs can be shut in there if workman need access to the lounge.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Do you have pet insurance they may be able to advise you, and should pay out if you are sued, hopefully it will not come to that.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

Chris BS said:


> He passed a package over the dogs head, to which, as his arm came in through the door


Not sure that was a good move on his part. Poking an arm in through a door above a dogs head is asking for trouble.
Hopefully it'll all be sorted out amicably. I wouldn't worry too much. Just come up with a drill to ensure dogs are safely contained 

And hello fellow Komondor owner!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure that was a good move on his part. Poking an arm in through a door above a dogs head is asking for trouble.
> Hopefully it'll all be sorted out amicably. I wouldn't worry too much. Just come up with a drill to ensure dogs are safely contained
> 
> And hello fellow Komondor owner!


How is he supposed to hand a parcel over without reaching over the dog's head when the dog was standing between him and the homeowner?


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

Sweety said:


> How is he supposed to hand a parcel over without reaching over the dog's head when the dog was standing between him and the homeowner?


I don't know the exact details so can only speculate, but I would expect him to wait and check with the owner before inserting arms over the top of guard dogs. Maybe he could have left it on the ground, or asked the owner "where do you want it?". Perhaps that would have prompted the owner to reach forward for the package, rather than the postman reaching in.

Strangers passing things over dogs heads into houses they are guarding isn't a great idea... I am not a lawyer, but common sense would suggest to me it's not all the dog/owners fault.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't know the exact details so can only speculate, but I would expect him to wait and check with the owner before inserting arms over the top of guard dogs. Maybe he could have left it on the ground...
> 
> Strangers passing things over dogs heads into houses they are guarding isn't a great idea... I am not a lawyer, but common sense would suggest to me it's not all the dog/owners fault.


I think the law might argue that the home owner has a duty of responsibility to lawful visitors to the property, postmen, delivery drivers, utility persons, etc are all entitled to go about their business without being bitten. As the responsible adult in charge of a dog you have to make sure the dog cannot cause the person to fear being bitten let alone be bitten. The OP said the dog was barking at the postman so therefore the owner should have taken action to prevent the bite occurring - such as asking the postman to wait while she shut the dog away or not taking the dog to the door in the first place.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't know the exact details so can only speculate, but I would expect him to wait and check with the owner before inserting arms over the top of guard dogs. Maybe he could have left it on the ground, or asked the owner "where do you want it?". Perhaps that would have prompted the owner to reach forward for the package, rather than the postman reaching in.
> 
> Strangers passing things over dogs heads into houses they are guarding isn't a great idea... I am not a lawyer, but common sense would suggest to me it's not all the dog/owners fault.


"Over the top of guard dogs"?

Where has the OP said that this was a guard dog?

Of course it's the fault of the owner. The dog was barking at the Postman. Instead of getting the dog out of the way, she opened the door, the Postman handed her a parcel and the dog bit him.

Seems very clear to me who is at fault here and it isn't the Postman.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure that was a good move on his part. Poking an arm in through a door above a dogs head is asking for trouble.
> Hopefully it'll all be sorted out amicably. I wouldn't worry too much. Just come up with a drill to ensure dogs are safely contained
> 
> And hello fellow Komondor owner!


Excuse me?!

The postman was going about his lawful business, he was not "asking for trouble".

This is the sort of attitude that needs to be stamped out and quick.

A dog that is adequately trained should not be biting ANYONE unless of course on cue in the relevant context eg work or sport.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't know the exact details so can only speculate, but I would expect him to wait and check with the owner before inserting arms over the top of guard dogs. Maybe he could have left it on the ground, or asked the owner "where do you want it?". Perhaps that would have prompted the owner to reach forward for the package, rather than the postman reaching in.
> 
> Strangers passing things over dogs heads into houses they are guarding isn't a great idea... I am not a lawyer, but common sense would suggest to me it's not all the dog/owners fault.


Why would he wait if the owner has opened the door in readiness to receive parcel?

Is the dog a Guard Dog? If it is of course it and the owner are subject to the Guard Dog Act 1975.

I find it appalling that you are trying to put the onus on the postman and not where it belongs, the owner.

Everyone has a duty of care to others who may be affected by their acts or omissions, or perhaps you believe that delivery personnel should be wearing kevlar?


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

Sweety said:


> "Over the top of guard dogs"?
> 
> Where has the OP said that this was a guard dog?


The Komondor breed is a guard dog. It is not for the feint hearted. It guards property, people, livestock, and anything else it can find. It's the size of a large sheep.

Jeez everything here turns into a massive argument. I'll leave you to it.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Chris BS said:


> Upon delivering a parcel, my wife opened the door whilst holding our 1 year old Komondor back who was barking at the postman. He passed a package over the dogs head, to which, as his arm came in through the door, the dog panicked and bit out. The bite was minimal, but enough to draw a small amount of blood on the edge of his wrist. The postman has said he will need to write a report and post to our address will be stopped. My wife is completely beside herself with fear of having to pay thousands of pounds in court fees or termination of our dog. We dont know what to do....can anyone offer any advice and what can we expect to happen?? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Chris.


Contact Dog Law Uk http://doglaw.co.uk/index.php/dangerous-act-1991/

As others have said, if you have a dog that panics in this sort of situation then it is not stable enough to be at the door in the event of deliveries


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

komondor_owner said:


> The Komondor breed is a guard dog. It is not for the feint hearted. It guards property, people, livestock, and anything else it can find. It's the size of a large sheep.
> 
> Jeez everything here turns into a massive argument. I'll leave you to it.


What do you know?

I have a Working Line GSD and a Malinois, both trained for IPO, they are not for the faint hearted. They guard property, people and livestock and, objects.

They have not bitten any postmen, I would be mortified if they did.

But I never put my dogs or others at risk


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> The Komondor breed is a guard dog. It is not for the feint hearted. It guards property, people, livestock, and anything else it can find. It's the size of a large sheep.
> 
> Jeez everything here turns into a massive argument. I'll leave you to it.


Really?

All the more reason then that the dog should have been out of the way when the OP opened the door.

How is the fact that this breed is the size of a large sheep even relevant?

I can think of a number of Breeds which probably aren't for the faint hearted, that doesn't mean it's okay for them to bite the Postman.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Do you have pet insurance they may be able to advise you, and should pay out if you are sued, hopefully it will not come to that.


If your dog is insured you do know you are legally obliged to inform them of this event?


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

Sweety said:


> How is the fact that this breed is the size of a large sheep even relevant?


Not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse here, but passing a package over a toy poodles head, is clearly different than passing it over a Kom sized dogs head.
Passing a package over a Koms head, you will be absolutely right in their face (Unless you are a giant). Which obviously they may well not like.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse here, but passing a package over a toy poodles head, is clearly different than passing it over a Kom sized dogs head.
> Passing a package over a Koms head, you will be absolutely right in their face (Unless you are a giant). Which obviously they may well not like.


Eh? So as well as doing their job a delivery person is now expected to be able to identify breeds of dogs?!

It is the owners job to know how their dog will react not anyone elses


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I'm sure the postman is well versed on fairly rare breeds of guard dog- not. And he shouldn't have to be.
The fact the dog was displaying inappropriate behaviour by barking at the door means the owner of said "guarding breed" should have known a whole lot better than to grant the dog access to the door, when it very clearly wasn't about to welcome said visitor with open paws.


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## hugie boo boo (Sep 21, 2014)

I work for royal mail ( but not in deliverys ) what I do know though that unless the postman was hospitalized royal mail won't take action ie police ect. The delivery office will get in touch to arrange how u can collect your mail in future . We have regular videos / team briefs about dog attacks on staff ( example when it's school holidays and kids could leave gates and doors open ) It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door . Hope it all goes ok for u.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse here, but passing a package over a toy poodles head, is clearly different than passing it over a Kom sized dogs head.
> Passing a package over a Koms head, you will be absolutely right in their face (Unless you are a giant). Which obviously they may well not like.


Well, you own two Komondors, don't you?

If you persist in your belief that it's okay for a large breed to bite the Postman, you could well find yourself in trouble at some time.

Again, the onus is on the Owner to ensure such an incident doesn't take place, unless, of course, the Postman is expected to execute a lightning temperament test on every dog he's confronted with.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

When the human is in the dog has no business vetting visitors at the door. I tend to down Dief in the hallway. When he's down the door opens. If he gets up the door shuts... in your face if you're still there. If you see him there and call him you get a kick in the nuts too.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse here, but passing a package over a toy poodles head, is clearly different than passing it over a Kom sized dogs head.
> *Passing a package over a Koms head, you will be absolutely right in their face (Unless you are a giant). Which obviously they may well not like.*


Then the _owner_ has made an error of judgment, NOT the postman, he's just doing his job!


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

hugie boo boo said:


> I work for royal mail ( but not in deliverys ) what I do know though that unless the postman was hospitalized royal mail won't take action ie police ect. The delivery office will get in touch to arrange how u can collect your mail in future . We have regular videos / team briefs about dog attacks on staff ( example when it's school holidays and kids could leave gates and doors open ) It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door . Hope it all goes ok for u.


Agree. If anyone with common sense was confronted with a Kom guarding a house, they'd ask if it's safe, or if the owner can move it out the way.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

komondor_owner said:


> Agree. If anyone with common sense was confronted with a Kom guarding a house, they'd ask if it's safe, or if the owner can move it out the way.


This is going to be interesting... you've said "common sense"... I'll get the popcorn.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> This is going to be interesting... you've said "common sense"... I'll get the popcorn.


Popcorn is so last year, kale chips are the way forward


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> Agree. If anyone with common sense was confronted with a Kom guarding a house, they'd ask if it's safe, or if the owner can move it out the way.


You appear to believe that special dispensation should be applied for a Komondor.

There are many large Breeds living in houses, a good number of them could be described as 'Guarding Breeds'.

It's absolutely ridiculous to even imply that the Postman should have identified this dog as a Komondor, recognised it as a Guarding Breed and asked the Owner to remove it.

In my opinion, anyone with any common sense who owns a dog that may bite makes damned certain it's never in a position to do so.

This particular Postman hasn't walked into the house unannounced or suddenly appeared in the garden, he knocked on the front door and, when the homeowner opened the door, he handed her a parcel.

If you believe that this is justification for the dog bite, simply because it's a Komondor, you could not be more wrong.

Why is it okay for a Komondor to bite, in your opinion?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

komondor_owner said:


> The Komondor breed is a guard dog. It is not for the feint hearted. It guards property, people, livestock, and anything else it can find. It's the size of a large sheep. .


I also have a livestock guardian breed. A Caucasian Ovcharka, a breed that even some dyed in the wool dog people get edgy about and with good reason, in the wrong hands they can be a real nightmare.

Just like a Kom I imagine although I'm lead to believe that the three well known members of the Ovcharka breeds (Caucasian, South Russian and Central Asian) are more intense.

However, whenever the postman is here or someone knocks on our gates he is either popped in his pen or in a separate room. It is my duty as an owner of such a breed to ensure my dog is never placed in a situation where he can react in a manner which may cause injury since despite his intense socialisation as a youngster he still very protective of my home and me.

It isn't the postman's job to second guess obscure flock guardians, it's their job to deliver the mail and it's my job to ensure my dog is secure.

OP from now on I would ensure your dog is safely secured whenever you have visitors until proper introductions can be given


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

FFS I am absolutely astounded and not just a little disgusted at the turn this thread has taken. 

You obviously haven't tried Propercorn. I recommend Peanut and Almond or Coconut and Sweet Almond for those with a very sweet tooth. 

F*cking kale...

:Shifty



Sounds like you haven't much to worry about. Poor guy gets a bite and will get a bollocking to boot. I'd take management steps in future like mentioned. We always have ours in the living rm or kitchen before opening door. And she doesn't even have a head the size of a sheep or whatever.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Wee T said:


> FFS I am absolutely astounded and not just a little disgusted at the turn this thread has taken.
> 
> You obviously haven't tried Propercorn. I recommend Peanut and Almond or Coconut and Sweet Almond for those with a very sweet tooth.
> 
> ...


Kale chips are not bad you know  I haven't had popcorn in an age roolrool I'm on a diet :Sorry


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Wee T said:


> F*cking kale...
> 
> :Shifty


I don't even know what kale is. Is it only for posh people like Caviar and After Eights ?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse here, but passing a package over a toy poodles head, is clearly different than passing it over a Kom sized dogs head.
> Passing a package over a Koms head, you will be absolutely right in their face (Unless you are a giant). Which obviously they may well not like.


Well if it is so obvious a) the OP should not have put either the dog or the postman or themselves in this position and b) it obviously needs to either have more training or be kept out of everyone's way!

In the real world people will do all sorts of things around dogs, it is our job to make sure they do not react inappropriately!

If a Komondor is not suited to the world of normal pet ownership and all that involves, perhaps they should stay in fields with their sheep.

People exhibit this breed in the show ring, a judge has to go over the head open the mouth etc etc, and any sign of inappropriate behaviour would result in the removal of the dog from the ring.

It is NOT acceptable or excusable to bite a postman and anyone who tries to excuse this due to "it is a special breed" argument is at best a fool and at worse a liability


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

komondor_owner said:


> The Komondor breed is a guard dog. It is not for the feint hearted. It guards property, people, livestock, and anything else it can find. It's the size of a large sheep.
> 
> Jeez everything here turns into a massive argument. I'll leave you to it.


If this is true then they had better be added to the banned breed list or maybe have a wild animal license. Obviously not suitable as a family pet.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Kale chips are not bad you know  I haven't had popcorn in an age roolrool I'm on a diet :Sorry


 I thought popcorn was healthy. It says 'corn'... :Shy


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Wee T said:


> I thought popcorn was healthy. It says 'corn'... :Shy


Did you know you can now get "Poshcorn"? They do a coconut and caramel flavour


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> Kale chips are not bad you know  I haven't had popcorn in an age roolrool I'm on a diet :Sorry


Me neither, not since my daughter blew the microwave up


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

diefenbaker said:


> I don't even know what kale is. Is it only for posh people like Caviar and After Eights ?




Extreme cabbage. Cited as saviour of the people thanks to its super-duper health benefits. Unless they start coating that frip in peanut butter and sugar it ain't got nothing I want. :Meh


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

diefenbaker said:


> This is going to be interesting... you've said* "common sense"*... I'll get the popcorn.


I would say that at least 50% of the population dont have it.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> Me neither, not since my daughter blew the microwave up


I think I might nip down the shop in my cat onesie and get a bag now. I think with recent escapades round here I may need to stock up on it


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> I don't even know what kale is. Is it only for posh people like Caviar and After Eights ?


Kale is leathery cabbage.
Caviar is fishy black snot.
After Eights are delicious, & when I eat them _before_ eight I feel like a proper badass.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Blitz said:


> If this is true then they had better be added to the banned breed list or maybe have a wild animal license. Obviously not suitable as a family pet.


Or more likely, that person thinks their breed is such a special snowflake that only a super special snowflake like them can handle it.....and woah forbid anyone that doesn't own one of those special snowflake breeds has an opinion on them!


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Did you know you can now get "Poshcorn"? They do a coconut and caramel flavour


Oooh.... Now what you go and tell me that fer. :Hungry


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

labradrk said:


> Or more likely, that person thinks their breed is such a special snowflake that only a super special snowflake like them can handle it.....and woah forbid anyone that doesn't own one of those special snowflake breeds has an opinion on them!


Can I be a super, duper special snowflake? :Couchpotato

My dogs think their hooman is a super special snowflake and would happily let any other dog have their super special snowflake :Hilarious:Hilarious



Wee T said:


> Oooh.... Now what you go and tell me that fer. :Hungry


They do a lemon cupcake flavour bags of Poshcorn as well.

You are welcome.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Can I be a super, duper special snowflake? :Couchpotato
> 
> My dogs think their hooman is a super special snowflake and would happily let any other dog have their super special snowflake :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> ...


Day-um. Considering not even stopping to put cat onesie on....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure that was a good move on his part. Poking an arm in through a door above a dogs head is asking for trouble.
> Hopefully it'll all be sorted out amicably. I wouldn't worry too much. Just come up with a drill to ensure dogs are safely contained
> 
> And hello fellow Komondor owner!


You are having s laugh aren't you? People like you are the reason there is a DDA, you own a breed for 5 minutes and suddenly you are an expert in guarding breeds. This is exactly why there should be stricter measure put in place for people being able to import breeds when they haven't a clue.

Have you read the DDA? If not best you had because with your attitude I can see you finding it smacking you on the arse you are prime example of why the law should start looking at the other end of the lead....


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## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

Kale is just a dark green leafy vegetable - and like most is very healthy. It's got a bit of a bitter taste though - I much prefer collard greens but they're hard to find in the UK I think.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Wee T said:


> Day-um. Considering not even stopping to put cat onesie on....




They're delicious so I am told. They both sound yummy rool I was at a Charity Ball last night and had peanut butter cheesecake roolroolrool


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> Agree. If anyone with common sense was confronted with a Kom guarding a house, they'd ask if it's safe, or if the owner can move it out the way.


How the hell is a Postman supposed to know if a home owners dog is going to bite or not or for that matter what breeds he or she should be wary of or not?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Well I'm relieved I don't own a guardian breed at all as seems quite stressful living with the constant knowledge your dog could behave as such. 

Must be like walking on egg shels.

I feel for the postman - Just trying to do their job.

Original Poster as many posters have said I would ensure you have much better management in place from here on.

Millie is always behind a baby gate or shut in the bathroom (off of the hallway so easy to pop her in) when I answer the door.

I don't have the brain power ton worry about interaction with said visitor / monitoring Millie who would be trying to greet them and keeping tabs on a toddler.

Hope that you reach and amicable agreement with Royal Mail re future deliveries.


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## fernlady (Feb 27, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> I also have a livestock guardian breed. A Caucasian Ovcharka, a breed that even some dyed in the wool dog people get edgy about and with good reason, in the wrong hands they can be a real nightmare.
> 
> Just like a Kom I imagine although I'm lead to believe that the three well known members of the Ovcharka breeds (Caucasian, South Russian and Central Asian) are more intense.
> 
> ...


Wow! Never hear of this breed so just done a quick Google - wow again! Beautiful x


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cbcdesign said:


> How the hell is a Postman supposed to know if a home owners dog is going to bite or not or for that matter what breeds he or she should be wary of or not?


LOL, exactly, 90% of people wouldn't know their arse from their elbow, never mind knowing what a bloody Komondor is. It's not the postman's fault an owner is too incompetent to adequately contain their dog. ALL dogs, even really friendly ones, have the potential to behave out of character when when faced with a stranger at the door. I have never allowed my dogs to greet strangers at the door. If I don't have time to contain them I'll stick my hand out of the door, sign it, and ask them to leave it on the doorstep which I pick up when they disappear - simple!!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Milliepoochie said:


> Well I'm relieved I don't own a guardian breed at all as seems quite stressful living with the constant knowledge your dog could behave as such.
> 
> Must be like walking on egg shels.


It really isn't! You just have to use some actual proper common sense and put the dog in another room he or she cannot get out from before opening the door to strangers. Training is also essential. My GSD Duchess knows our regular postman, likes him and gets a fuss from him if they meet outside. Whilst inside she is kept in another room so she cannot get to the front door because she does guard by instinct whilst indoors and its very difficult to stop her doing so. She has also been introduced and is on very friendly terms with all of our neighbours should they meet outside the house.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

fernlady said:


> Wow! Never hear of this breed so just done a quick Google - wow again! Beautiful x


Thank you. Worryingly they're becoming the new 'in' dog over here with the status dog crowd 










That's my boy. He's not the only one on here either


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think it's silly to think the postman should have asked where to leave the package or wait for permission to give it to the OP. You take your dog to the door and most rational thinking, normal, folk are going to assume that dog is friendly. Why would you question that? Accidents happen, sure, but I think it's a weak excuse to use the breed's guarding abilities as the reason why it bit/shouldn't have been approached. Most dogs can distinguish between a non threat and a real one.



labradrk said:


> Or more likely, that person thinks their breed is such a special snowflake that only a super special snowflake like them can handle it.....and woah forbid anyone that doesn't own one of those special snowflake breeds has an opinion on them!


We've had numerous of those types of owner too unfortunatley. Really drives me crazy!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

labradrk said:


> LOL, exactly, 90% of people wouldn't know their arse from their elbow, never mind knowing what a bloody Komondor is. It's not the postman's fault an owner is too incompetent to adequately contain their dog. ALL dogs, even really friendly ones, have the potential to behave out of character when when faced with a stranger at the door. I have never allowed my dogs to greet strangers at the door. If I don't have time to contain them I'll stick my hand out of the door, sign it, and ask them to leave it on the doorstep which I pick up when they disappear - simple!!


Probably thought the Komondor was Dougal from the Magic Roundabout....................


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Probably thought the Komondor was Dougal from the Magic Roundabout....................


LOL!! a giant Dougal with teeth.......


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## Anneboxermad (Dec 27, 2015)

Why did you not shut the dog away before opening the door. This is on your shoulders as you had dog in your arms


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh no now I've got Magic Roundabout tune going round in my head


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Probably thought the Komondor was Dougal from the Magic Roundabout....................


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

In all seriousness I think you might be onto something here...

To the majority of the GP I imagine that Bear looks like a St Bernard so non-threatening, unless of course they've been watching Cujo whereas a lot of the GP would class anything black & tan as a 'guard dog' thanks to the bad rep breeds such as rotties, dobies and gsd get. The lady with the Gordon Setter in my village often tells me people cross the road and ask if her dog is 'safe' due to her boys colouration.

So I imagine a postman without his handy 'how to spot a flock guardian at 50 feet' guide would think a large, white shaggy dog (If not dreaded) was a breed which wasn't classed as a typical 'guard dog' so safe to be around?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> It really isn't! You just have to use some actual proper common sense and put the dog in another room he or she cannot get out from before opening the door to strangers. Training is also essential. My GSD Duchess knows our regular postman, likes him and gets a fuss from him if they meet outside. Whilst inside she is kept in another room so she cannot get to the front door because she does guard by instinct whilst indoors and its very difficult to stop her doing so. She has also been introduced and is on very friendly terms with all of our neighbours should they meet outside the house.


I don't actually think that - It was meant tongue in cheek 

Millie is Rottie X and very good at letting us know when someone's coming down the drive (not barking but there at the door letting me know).

But as you say I manage her - She is out the way. It's not her job to monitor such situations.

Just seemed a particular poster believes certain guardian breeds different rules apply.

Then again Millie isn't the size of a sheep and is clearly a watered down guardian breed so the special rules may not apply


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

It does astound me how I have managed to get by owning Rottweilers as a mere mortal...Then again not stood Cian next to a sheep of late, maybe if he was sheep size I'd be doomed!!!!!


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

It is routine if a postman gets bitten, they HAVE to report it because what if you are out and about and a little kid gets bitten?
Contact doglaw and put steps in place to maybe keep the dog away from the front door. Maybe get an outdoor postbox .

What the f*ck does kale have to do with this?
Who gives a crap let's go get some Caviar.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

If you must take your dog to the door then purchase and fit a chain to the door. You can then open the door and see who it is and if necessary put the dog away somewhere safe before opening the door. Our postman doesn't even get over the threshold our post box is on the gate. If the item is too big for the post box then he rings the bell on the gate and we respond.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

In case any younger readers don't know about the Magic Roundabout

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=C211GB0D20150629&p=magic+roundabout


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Meezey said:


> It does astound me how I have managed to get by owning Rottweilers as a mere mortal....


I'll let you be a demi-god  You can be part of my club :Couchpotato:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

P.S. @Meezey Bear is sheep-sized enough for Cian so he can join too :Couchpotato

Welcome to the club, your name badge and membership car decal are on their way :Joyful


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Summerhaze said:


> It is routine if a postman gets bitten, they HAVE to report it because what if you are out and about and a little kid gets bitten?
> Contact doglaw and put steps in place to maybe keep the dog away from the front door. Maybe get an outdoor postbox .
> 
> What the f*ck does kale have to do with this?
> Who gives a crap let's go get some Caviar.


Caviar :Wtf I like seafood but can't say I am a Caviar fan.

Now Burger and Lobster in London is a different story rool OOOF! I'm gonna be dreaming of their butter sauce tonight roolrool


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Summerhaze said:


> It is routine if a postman gets bitten, they HAVE to report it because what if you are out and about and a little kid gets bitten?
> Contact doglaw and put steps in place to maybe keep the dog away from the front door. Maybe get an outdoor postbox .
> 
> What the f*ck does kale have to do with this?
> Who gives a crap let's go get some Caviar.


Er no, reporting has nothing to do with whether a child might get bitten or not!

An employer must carry out suitable and sufficient risk assessments of each work related task. if an employee incurs an injury during working time, whatever the industry, they must report it at once in order to fulfil their obligation to look after their own health and safety and so their employer can conduct an investigation, identify immediate and underlying causes and put in a corrective and preventive action plan to prevent recurrence.

Animal attack is yet another hazard that anyone who attends a property may be exposed to during working hours.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Skip absolutely hates the post-people with the passion of a thousand firey suns. 

But he's not the size of a sheep, so that must mean he's perfectly safe, right?


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Sweety said:


> How is he supposed to hand a parcel over without reaching over the dog's head when the dog was standing between him and the homeowner?


You can always give the parcel to the side of the dog , rather then over his head, which some dogs can react too


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> Skip absolutely hates the post-people with the passion of a thousand firey suns.
> 
> But he's not the size of a sheep, so that must mean he's perfectly safe, right?


Absolutely  I mean, he's not one of the godly LSG breeds is he?*

*I'm joking Skip you savage post-people slayer you


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

*facepalm* I have to leave this place again I really can not cope.....


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

This problem will go away once all parcels are delivered by drones. No dog will react to a drone landing in his garden.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

@Chris BS I meant to ask, how's your wife now? I'm sure she was shaken up. I know I'd be beside myself.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Absolutely  I mean, he's not one of the godly LSG breeds is he?*
> 
> *I'm joking Skip you savage post-people slayer you


He says he's much more ferocious than those big fluffy things that call themselves 'guardians'


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cbcdesign said:


> How the hell is a Postman supposed to know if a home owners dog is going to bite or not or for that matter what breeds he or she should be wary of or not?


Well, it's simple.

All Postmen should know that a dog will bite if it's the size of a LARGE SHEEP.

Apparently, that's critical.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> He says he's much more ferocious than those big fluffy things that call themselves 'guardians'


Bear says we should get together have some fun  The old terrier here is as tough as old boot leather but he isn't fast enough to catch the post-beast 

Now we just need a plan to get past these hoomans and we will succeed


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Well, it's simple.
> 
> All Postmen should know that a dog will bite if it's the size of a LARGE SHEEP.
> 
> Apparently, that's critical.


I hear royal mail now issue a 'how to spot a flock guardian at 50 feet. It's simple! Think sheep' guide so you know


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> Bear says we should get together have some fun  The old terrier here is as tough as old boot leather but he isn't fast enough to catch the post-beast
> 
> Now we just need a plan to get past these hoomans and we will succeed


Skip does fast, he does it well! It's them long legs... He could even chase the posties down holes, like his forefathers used to do to foxes and badgers!

The tag-team of Postie nightmares!!!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Jackien4 said:


> You can always give the parcel to the side of the dog , rather then over his head, which some dogs can react too


Dogs may react to all sorts of things, that is why it is the owner's job to take account of this.

This reminds me of all the idiots I meet who excuse their dog's inappropriate behaviour with phrases such as "she/he is a rescue" "she/he does not like dogs on leads" "she/he does not people wearing hats" (yes I have heard all these).

What about what the person/dog being bothered? What about THEIR likes/history etc?

Some dog owners need to get over themselves!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Jackien4 said:


> You can always give the parcel to the side of the dog , rather then over his head, which some dogs can react too


Oh, seriously?

Again, if a dog is likely to react to a parcel being handed over his head, then he should never be allowed to be in that position.

There is no excuse for a dog biting a Postman who was greeted by the Homeowner. He wasn't a burglar, but a man going about his job.

Is he really expected to analyse each dog and make a judgement about which portion of it's body should be avoided?

There is no excuse. If you take your dog to the door and open it to the Postman, or anyone else, and the dog bites, you have made a huge mistake.

Either you don't know your own dog or you're a fool who always believes someone else is to blame.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> Skip does fast, he does it well! It's them long legs... He could even chase the posties down holes, like his forefathers used to do to foxes and badgers!
> 
> The tag-team of Postie nightmares!!!




'POST BUSTERS! If there's something strange delivering in your neighbourhood... Who you gonna call? POST BUSTERS'


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

i have one large guarding breed [mastiff x boxer] who would lick the postman to death
its the flipping crestie who needs the living room dog gate AND door shut [although *all* are kept away from the front door, as a matter of common sense]
he can work himself up into such a state when the door is knocked, that he has nipped me [no skin broken] because of deferred excitement, when ive walked back in

however, I have seen that the postman is not only issued with a large envelope sized poster rubber banded to my [and others] post saying 'dogs live here', he has a pair of red tongs that he is supposed to use to put the post through the door of anyone who has dogs, only ever see the temps using it tho, as our usual one knows where the risky dogs [and cats I might add] reside

no matter the size of the dog, no dog should be allowed free range to the front door. By all means clip a leash on and take them, then put back in a safe place once you know whose there, but free range? [and i include hand on collar as such, in this instance] no way


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

El Cid said:


> I would say that at least 50% of the population dont have it.


and that's being generous!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Beat that


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Beat that


That's it.

Conversation closed :Locktopic

RPH wins the internet tonight enguin


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Yes owners should take responsibly for their dog, but at times dogs can do things you least expect . You have seen it so many times in the media where a dog has bitten someone . And the owner says he has never bitten anyone before. There is a reason why the dog suddenly does it .


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Jackien4 said:


> Yes owners should take responsibly for their dog, but at times dogs can do things you least expect . You have seen it so many times in the media where a dog has bitten someone . *And the owner says he has never bitten anyone before.* There is a reason why the dog suddenly does it .


This is usually because the owner has missed previous warning signals.

Personally, I wouldn't be allowing any dog no matter the breed greet a stranger at the door. Pop them in the kitchen out the way. Prevention is better than damage control


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

I would think that the whole situation would depend on whether you could be proved negligent as an owner.. i.e did you have any reason to believe the dog would bite? Has your dog bitten before in a similar situation? Plus... were there any photos taken at the time? Did you sign something to say that it was your dog that bit? Was there any witnesses to it? 

For all intents and purposes, if you had no reason to think that your dog would or could bite then why would you think to put preventative measures in place. Additionally, who is to say that the postman was not already bitten by another dog before he came to your house? Was it your dog that drew blood? Can you be certain of that? 

Lots to think about and certainly, as others have pointed out already, be ready with a solicitor just in case.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

This thread has had me laughing out loud and groaning in disbelief in almost equal measure.

If you cannot trust your dog to not bite the postman then shut him in another room or behind a gate prior to opening the front door. Simple!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Jackien4 said:


> Yes owners should take responsibly for their dog, but at times dogs can do things you least expect . You have seen it so many times in the media where a dog has bitten someone . And the owner says he has never bitten anyone before. There is a reason why the dog suddenly does it .


Well, if the owner of the dog doesn't know the dog is going to bite, how the hell can the Postman be expected to know?

I am interested in your observation that "there is a reason why the dog suddenly does it".

I'm all ears. Would you like to elaborate?


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Chris BS said:


> Upon delivering a parcel, my wife opened the door whilst holding our 1 year old Komondor back who was barking at the postman. He passed a package over the dogs head, to which, as his arm came in through the door, the dog panicked and bit out. The bite was minimal, but enough to draw a small amount of blood on the edge of his wrist. The postman has said he will need to write a report and post to our address will be stopped. My wife is completely beside herself with fear of having to pay thousands of pounds in court fees or termination of our dog. We dont know what to do....can anyone offer any advice and what can we expect to happen?? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Chris.


You've already received good advice on the legalities, I just want to echo the advice to put some management in place to make sure you don't put your dog in a position like this again.

The postman is not at fault in any way for doing his job. It is our job as dog owners to protect others from our dogs, and to protect our dogs from the consequences of this sort of behavior.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Jackien4 said:


> Yes owners should take responsibly for their dog, but at times dogs can do things you least expect . You have seen it so many times in the media where a dog has bitten someone . And the owner says he has never bitten anyone before. There is a reason why the dog suddenly does it .


I would say if a dog was barking at someone at the door that is a pretty good indication that dog is not being friendly. That's not abnormal obviously - a huge number of dogs will do just that. However, at that point the common sense reaction should have been to remove said dog before it escalated. That didn't happen here which was why the man got bitten.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

diefenbaker said:


> This problem will go away once all parcels are delivered by drones. No dog will react to a drone landing in his garden.


Tables gonna be turned...









Watch out, sheep sized dogs.



Sweety said:


> Well, it's simple.
> 
> All Postmen should know that a dog will bite if it's the size of a LARGE SHEEP.
> 
> Apparently, that's critical.


What's that? A _large _sheep you say?  'kay.....large...sheep. Got it. Girth? Or is it tog? 

Also, should I happen upon such an animal do I deliver, say, my Betterware catalogue to the right, left or underneath the animal?

#staysheepsafe


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

OP,
I can only imagine how worried you are at the moment. I don't know about the legal aspect of things, but would a letter to him/the local office apologising and maybe describing a door open/deliveries etc management strategy so the situation can never happen again help?

As for the poster basically saying the postie had it coming for handing the post over... words fail me. And before you ask, we have a Black Russian Terrier, and no, she has never bitten anyone, because I do not put her in the position where she has to make that decision, I protect her from it.

Sorry, I should have said, this could never happen anyway because my dog is about the size of a large sheep, so it'll be on the Posties Biting Recognition Chart, and they'll know automatically not to pass a parcel over her head.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I would think that the whole situation would depend on whether you could be proved negligent as an owner.. i.e did you have any reason to believe the dog would bite? Has your dog bitten before in a similar situation? Plus... were there any photos taken at the time? Did you sign something to say that it was your dog that bit? Was there any witnesses to it?
> 
> For all intents and purposes, if you had no reason to think that your dog would or could bite then why would you think to put preventative measures in place. Additionally, who is to say that the postman was not already bitten by another dog before he came to your house? Was it your dog that drew blood? Can you be certain of that?
> 
> Lots to think about and certainly, as others have pointed out already, be ready with a solicitor just in case.


Negligence.

An interesting subject.

and one that is often misunderstood

For a successful civil case

1 Was a duty of care owed to the postman, clearly yes
2 Was this duty of care breached and was it forseeable, well yes because the postman was harmed and it is entirely forseeable (according to at least one poster if not more on this thread) that it is obvious what would happen if a postman moved in a certain way at the domestic premises at which a komondor resided and was guarding.

I would say it was entirely foreseeable because a dog has teeth, ergo it can bite. Anyone who thinks their dog is incapable of biting, ever, is living in lala land.

3 Did injury occur (again as per the OP yes it did)

Now for successful claim only ONE of the above 3 have to be extant.

In this case I would suggest all three are.

Civil law works on the "balance of probability" unlike criminal law which works on "beyond reasonable doubt" and the former does not require cases to pass the evidentiary test nor the public interest test that the latter do.

As for a criminal case that is something that the PO can pursue and have done in the past

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...landmark-legal-battle-postie-savaged-pet.html


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Biffo said:


> OP,
> I can only imagine how worried you are at the moment. I don't know about the legal aspect of things, but would a letter to him/the local office apologising and maybe describing a door open/deliveries etc management strategy so the situation can never happen again help?
> 
> As for the poster basically saying the postie had it coming for handing the post over... words fail me. And before you ask, we have a Black Russian Terrier, and no, she has never bitten anyone, because I do not put her in the position where she has to make that decision, I protect her from it.
> ...


Welcome to the sheep-sized dog crew  I am the president of the club, your membership badge is in the post :Couchpotato


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

All mine are shut away when I have workers visit/postman knocks etc and I really needn't to with Missy & Ty at least who are as docile and non threatening as they come, but I don't expect everyone to come to my home and like dogs/want them in their space. They're here to do a job, not to interact with my dogs  Have had the odd repairman ask to meet the dogs which is entirely different of course, and then I'm happy to bring them out for a quick meet & greet, but they go straight back behind a closed door after.

Again, accidents happen, and if the OP's dog took everyone by surprise by biting in this situation, I agree that in the future you need to put safety measures in place/contain your dog to prevent any possible chance of this happening again. Hopefully after reporting you the matter will be closed with no further action taken, so do try not to worry unnecessarily @Chris BS.


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## Anneboxermad (Dec 27, 2015)

Jackien4 said:


> Yes owners should take responsibly for their dog, but at times dogs can do things you least expect . You have seen it so many times in the media where a dog has bitten someone . And the owner says he has never bitten anyone before. There is a reason why the dog suddenly does it .


That dog end of should of been put in another room


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

Pappychi - thanks very much!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

OP I am sure it is very distressing and I hope nothing comes of it...


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I do feel for you OP and hope you're not too stressed x

However, with some of the posts on here, this has been an interesting thread! Now all we need is a random picture of a collie with some tenuous link about him being a big, fluffy lovebug and we will have had a full house


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't get the impression the OP is blaming the postman and hopefully can see that the dog should not have been allowed access to the door. I do hope lessons have been learnt and better measures are put in place to protect lawful visitors going about their job.

If we weren't talking about such a potentially dangerous situation though, some of the comments from others would actually be laughable.

The postman should know better.. he should be able to identify a guarding breed.. not pass something over a dogs head etc - words fail me :Banghead:Banghead:Banghead
Why the hell should a postman have to know any of that? The only person responsible for ensuring the safety of others around YOUR dog is YOU. If you are too ignorant to accept that, then you are not responsible enough to own anything other than a stuffed teddy bear :Bear


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> Not sure if you're just being deliberately obtuse here, but passing a package over a toy poodles head, is clearly different than passing it over a Kom sized dogs head.
> Passing a package over a Koms head, *you will be absolutely right in their face (Unless you are a giant). Which obviously they may well not like.*


I have a great dane. A throwback temperament great dane who is quite serious about her guarding and protective instincts. 
Every child and most short people end up being right in her face just standing there. Would it be okay for her to take offense at all these people "in her face"?
No, it's my responsibility as her owner to a) manage her so she is not a danger to others, b) socialize her so that she learns to accept certain things in the human world, and c) train her so that she defers to me before taking matters in her own hands (paws/teeth).


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Nettles said:


> I don't get the impression the OP is blaming the postman and hopefully can see that the dog should not have been allowed access to the door. I do hope lessons have been learnt and better measures are put in place to protect lawful visitors going about their job.
> 
> If we weren't talking about such a potentially dangerous situation though, some of the comments from others would actually be laughable.
> 
> ...


Well, what will end up happening is that people who own dogs over a certain size will no longer get their mail delivered.

I actually think it's really bad how many mail and delivery workers get bitten - badly. It's a real issue in the profession and I don't blame them one bit for getting frustrated with dog owners, especially after seeing some of the posts on this thread


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> I do feel for you OP and hope you're not too stressed x
> 
> However, with some of the posts on here, this has been an interesting thread! Now all we need is a random picture of a collie with some tenuous link about him being a big, fluffy lovebug and we will have had a full house


  Ha ha. Aww, that dog should've been called Carlsberg.

If Carlsberg made dogs....

He'd probably help deliver the post. Before rescuing Timmy from the well.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Negligence.
> 
> An interesting subject.
> 
> ...


1. Was the postman under a duty of reasonable care for him/her self not to put him/her self in a position of possible harm? Yes
2. If it was obvious and foreseeable that the post person moved in a certain way that the dog would bite then why move in that way? Was it not obvious to the post person ( a person with presumable considerable experience with dogs ) that he/she could be putting him/herself at risk? If so then who is negligent? The PostOffice for not giving sufficient training to their employees? The fact that the dog is a Komondor is neither here nor there, by virtue of your statement is a Jack Russell or a Shih Tzu incapable of inflicting a bite, or indeed any dog for that matter? Re: It has teeth ergo it can bite... so could the owner or the post person if they had mind to. Has teeth so 'will' bite is not a foregone conclusion.

3. Did injury occur... well did it? Prove it and prove it was the Komondor that caused it.

Civil law does indeed work on the balance of probability but as the solicitors suggest here https://www.accidentadvicehelpline.co.uk/blog/can-claim-postman-bitten-dog/

It is not always straightforward...

"*Most dog attack claims are complicated, because the claimant must prove that either the owner of the dog or another party has acted negligently*. Although you may consider the dog owner responsible for your injury, your claim may be less straightforward than you think. *In cases where dogs have never shown signs of aggression, a claim for a dog bite may be unsuccessful*. *Since the dog has never acted aggressively, the owner will have had no way of knowing that it would bite someone one day. The owner, therefore, was unable to take the necessary precautions in order to prevent you from coming to harm.*

Conversely, if the dog owner knew that their dog was aggressive and they failed in their duty of care to protect the people on their property, you may have a valid claim. Additionally, you may file your claim against Royal Mail. If other postmen had informed Royal Mail that there was a potentially dangerous dog on a particular property but they did not warn you, a claim may be possible against your employer's liability insurance policy.

*To ensure the validity of your claim, you need to inform your employer that you have sustained a dog bite soon after the attack. Make sure that your employer records the incident in the accident book. Report the attack to the police and ask your doctor to write a medical report detailing your injuries. It is a good idea to take photographs of your injuries as soon as possible, which can help you to demonstrate the severity of the attack."*


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I would think that the whole situation would depend on whether you could be proved negligent as an owner.. i.e did you have any reason to believe the dog would bite? Has your dog bitten before in a similar situation? Plus... were there any photos taken at the time? Did you sign something to say that it was your dog that bit? Was there any witnesses to it?
> 
> For all intents and purposes, if you had no reason to think that your dog would or could bite then why would you think to put preventative measures in place. Additionally, who is to say that the postman was not already bitten by another dog before he came to your house? Was it your dog that drew blood? Can you be certain of that?
> 
> Lots to think about and certainly, as others have pointed out already, be ready with a solicitor just in case.


What?

So, you don't manage your dog until he has bitten someone?

And, oh my word, how fortuitous that the Postman had been bitten by a different dog, but chose to blame yours? Well, that would be very easy to disprove, wouldn't it?

Never heard such nonsense in a long time.

The OP saw his dog bite the Postman, but never mind that, clearly some other dog bit him and he's now being spiteful and blaming the OP's dog.

Dear me ......


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Wee T said:


> Ha ha. Aww, that dog should've been called Carlsberg.
> 
> If Carlsberg made dogs....
> 
> He'd probably help deliver the post. Before rescuing Timmy from the well.


I was gonna say something really snarky but I shall refrain :Couchpotato


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> 1. Was the postman under a duty of reasonable care for him/her self not to put him/her self in a position of possible harm? Yes
> 2. If it was obvious and foreseeable that the post person moved in a certain way that the dog would bite then why move in that way? Was it not obvious to the post person ( a person with presumable considerable experience with dogs ) that he/she could be putting him/herself at risk? If so then who is negligent? The PostOffice for not giving sufficient training to their employees? The fact that the dog is a Komondor is neither here nor there, by virtue of your statement is a Jack Russell or a Shih Tzu incapable of inflicting a bite, or indeed any dog for that matter? Re: It has teeth ergo it can bite... so could the owner or the post person if they had mind to. Has teeth so 'will' bite is not a foregone conclusion.
> 
> 3. Did injury occur... well did it? Prove it and prove it was the Komondor that caused it.
> ...


I love line 3 of this.

The OP has admitted his dog bit the Postman and drew blood, but of course, the Postman has to prove he was injured and that it was the Komondor who bit him.

Are you really that naïve?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Sweety said:


> What?
> 
> So, you don't manage your dog until he has bitten someone?
> 
> ...


I agree with you, pet owners should be responsible. However, so should those coming into contact with animals via their profession and their employers too. I am sure that all responsible parties will own up to their negligence if there is any. Meanwhile, the poor dog who is non the wiser gets a bad reputation or worse and the post person might then move on to the next compensation claim.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> 1. Was the postman under a duty of reasonable care for him/her self not to put him/her self in a position of possible harm? Yes
> 2. If it was obvious and foreseeable that the post person moved in a certain way that the dog would bite then why move in that way? Was it not obvious to the post person ( a person with presumable considerable experience with dogs ) that he/she could be putting him/herself at risk? If so then who is negligent? The PostOffice for not giving sufficient training to their employees? The fact that the dog is a Komondor is neither here nor there, by virtue of your statement is a Jack Russell or a Shih Tzu incapable of inflicting a bite, or indeed any dog for that matter? Re: It has teeth ergo it can bite... so could the owner or the post person if they had mind to. Has teeth so 'will' bite is not a foregone conclusion.
> 
> 3. Did injury occur... well did it? Prove it and prove it was the Komondor that caused it.
> ...


You used the word "possible" that is not a term that we use in either H & S or claims, the word used is probable.

It is possible I could win the lottery on Saturday, but not probable and it is the probability not possibility of harm occurring that is the issue.

Nobody has mentioned a foregone conclusion but an entirely forseeable event by the owner.

It is entirely forseeable that if you take a dog to the door that it may take umbrage at anyone and the incident was entirely avoidable and preventable, as 99;99% of all incidents are.

the owner has already admittted that the dog bit the postman on a public forum

game, set and match I think


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Sweety said:


> I love line 3 of this.
> 
> The OP has admitted his dog bit the Postman and drew blood, but of course, the Postman has to prove he was injured and that it was the Komondor who bit him.
> 
> Are you really that naïve?


No not naive... but proof is proof. If it isn't then your dog bit me yesterday.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I agree with you, pet owners should be responsible. However, so should those coming into contact with animals via their profession and their employers too. I am sure that all responsible parties will own up to their negligence if there is any. Meanwhile, the poor dog who is non the wiser gets a bad reputation or worse and the post person might then move on to the next compensation claim.


All anyone has to do is what is reasonably practical. Anyone who is injured especially at work has a perfect right to claim compensation, and why not?

People go to work expecting to return home at the end of the day in the same way as they left, not after having an accident at work.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> You used the word "possible" that is not a term that we use in either H & S or claims, the word used is probable.
> 
> It is possible I could win the lottery on Saturday, but not probable and it is the probability not possibility of harm occurring that is the issue.
> 
> ...


Strange you should see it as a game... in fact odd. I am sure that the person who is at the sharp end is not feeling the same way and I am not necessarily talking about the post person.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> All anyone has to do is what is reasonably practical. Anyone who is injured especially at work has a perfect right to claim compensation, and why not?
> 
> People go to work expecting to return home at the end of the day in the same way as they left, not after having an accident at work.


Agreed, that is why as an employer I would be held responsible if I didn't supply my employees with safety gloves.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Strange you should see it as a game... in fact odd. I am sure that the person who is at the sharp end is not feeling the same way and I am not necessarily talking about the post person.


No I do not see it as a game at all, it is absolutely shocking that people are being bitten by dogs which are not under control.

Yes it is very sad for the dog owner, but I am afraid nobody in this day and age can be under any illusion about the importance of having full control over your dog and not putting others at risk.

All it required was to shut a door. No special or expensive equipment, just shut a door and all this pain could have been avoided.

I used a figure of speech.  As one often does


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Agreed, that is why as an employer I would be held responsible if I didn't supply my employees with safety gloves.


PPE is the last resort in the hierarchy of controls re Health and Safety, the reason for this is that it does not prevent an accident occurring but only mitigates the results, also it protects the individual not the group.

PPE is not necessary for posties (in the way of safety gloves) a suitable and sufficient risk assessment would determine that they are not requried.

The sort of safety gloves which would protect the postie from a life changing injury would not be suitable for the main duties of a postie which is picking out envelopes out of a bag and posting them through the letter box.

They could in fact present a hazard in and of themselves (something else that always needs to be considered when selecting PPE)

The glove that is thin enough for efficient picking etc is not also suitable for preventing serious injury.

That glove has yet to be invented (unless you know better than Arco etc)


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> No I do not see it as a game at all, it is absolutely shocking that people are being bitten by dogs which are not under control.
> 
> Yes it is very sad for the dog owner, but I am afraid nobody in this day and age can be under any illusion about the importance of having full control over your dog and not putting others at risk.
> 
> ...


And I strongly suspect that now the owner knows the dog has potential to bite when provoked then all precautions will be taken in the future.

In my opinion, there are irresponsible owners and then there are those who have had the misfortune to be unpleasantly surprised by their dog's behaviour. Not really the same are they? But perhaps that is why court cases exist for these matters? If it was an open and shut case of irresponsibility in every case then, arguably, there would be no need for a case to be heard.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> PPE is the last resort in the hierarchy of controls re Health and Safety, the reason for this is that it does not prevent an accident occurring but only mitigates the results, also it protects the individual not the group.
> 
> PPE is not necessary for posties (in the way of safety gloves) a suitable and sufficient risk assessment would determine that they are not requried.
> 
> ...


That was not my point. Plus... historically, isn't it well known that dogs often do not like post people? Given that, what provisions have the Post Office made to prevent harm?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> And I strongly suspect that *now the owner knows the dog has potential to bite* when provoked then all precautions will be taken in the future.
> 
> In my opinion, there are irresponsible owners and then there are those who have had the misfortune to be unpleasantly surprised by their dog's behaviour. Not really the same are they? But perhaps that is why court cases exist for these matters? If it was an open and shut case of irresponsibility in every case then, arguably, there would be no need for a case to be heard.


My dog has teeth, therefore she has the potential to bite. She does not have to have previously bitten someone for me to know this.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> And I strongly suspect that now the owner knows the dog has potential to bite when provoked then all precautions will be taken in the future.
> 
> In my opinion, there are irresponsible owners and then there are those who have had the misfortune to be unpleasantly surprised by their dog's behaviour. Not really the same are they? But perhaps that is why court cases exist for these matters? If it was an open and shut case of irresponsibility in every case then, arguably, there would be no need for a case to be heard.


I see so now a postie delivering something to an owner is considered "provoking"????????????????????????

There is no need for any dog to bite first before any sane owner realises that ANY thing with teeth has the potential to bite, including humans, any parent knows that!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Nettles said:


> My dog has teeth, therefore she has the potential to bite. She does not have to have previously bitten someone for me to know this.


So do you... does that mean you should not open the door to the post person?


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> And I strongly suspect that now the owner knows the dog has potential to bite when provoked then all precautions will be taken in the future.


How was this dog provoked exactly?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> I see so now a postie delivering something to an owner is considered "provoking"????????????????????????
> 
> There is no need for any dog to bite first before any sane owner realises that ANY thing with teeth has the potential to bite, including humans, any parent knows that!


Yes, humans do have the potential but you still open the door.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> How was this dog provoked exactly?


Ask the dog, it obviously felt provoked or it,arguably, would not have bitten.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> That was not my point. Plus... historically, isn't it well known that dogs often do not like post people? Given that, what provisions have the Post Office made to prevent harm?


Historically?

Whether dogs like posties or not is irrelevant.

For all your years of experience in the pet field you appear to be oblivious to the laws of learning.

Dogs behave in the way they do at the arrival of posties because they bark when they appear and the posties leave.

Dog thinks it is cause and effect ie it barked causing the postie to leave.

We know that is not the case.

However as dogs do what works and if owners permit this behaviour it will get stronger with time.

The onus is not on the postie to prevent harm it is on the dog owner. The dog owner is the risk creator, not the postie


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Yes, humans do have the potential but you still open the door.


I do not, I do not open the door to anyone, I have a spyhole and all post is delivered to my box and if I have to sign for anything again the door is not opened.

Simple.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Historically?
> 
> Whether dogs like posties or not is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


I would argue that it is the responsibility of both.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Ask the dog, it obviously felt provoked or it,arguably, would not have bitten.


Whether it felt provoked or not is irrelevant, in today's society it would not be deemed reasonable for a dog to behave in this way in a normal social interaction.

No court in the land would uphold that point of view, nor would any reputable trainer or behaviourist.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Historically?
> 
> Whether dogs like posties or not is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


And... let's not get personal eh? Debate is one thing but getting personal does not bode well for your argument.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Whether it felt provoked or not is irrelevant, in today's society it would not be deemed reasonable for a dog to behave in this way in a normal social interaction.
> 
> No court in the land would uphold that point of view, nor would any reputable trainer or behaviourist.


Ahhhh.... now we are getting somewhere. Is it law that you dog should be trained and be made behaviourally social?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> And... let's not get personal eh? Debate is one thing but getting personal does not bode well for your argument.


I am merely making an observation that your argument is actually specious and not based in science. You undermine the credibiilty of your own point of view, you require no third party to fulfil that role.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> So do you... does that mean you should not open the door to the post person?


Of course I know she has the potential to bite. She has teeth!
And yes, I should not and I DO NOT open the door to anyone until she is safely secured in another room. I do not think for one single second that she would bite someone, but I'm not going to put her in the position where she could.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Ahhhh.... now we are getting somewhere. Is it law that you dog should be trained and be made behaviourally social?


It is law that people should be able to pursue their own lawful occupation without being assaulted by man or beast.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Whether it felt provoked or not is irrelevant, in today's society it would not be deemed reasonable for a dog to behave in this way in a normal social interaction.
> 
> No court in the land would uphold that point of view, nor would any reputable trainer or behaviourist.


Also, if a trainer or behaviourist fails at their task with a particular animal then are they held legally responsible if the animal then goes on to cause harm as a result of such failure?


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Ask the dog, it obviously felt provoked or it,arguably, would not have bitten.


Well, one of my cats seconds ago just tried to commit suicide by dog and stuck her head in his bowl while he was eating. Quite provoking behavior if you ask me, especially for a foodie dog who is not exactly fond of cats. 
Do you know what the dog did? He looked at me asking me if I was going to handle this or he would. And I quickly scooped up the cat and removed her from the room and praised the dog. 
MY mistake for putting the food bowl down before checking to see where the cat was.

Dogs have many options before resorting to a bite, and owners have many places where they can intervene before a bite happens.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> It is law that people should be able to pursue their own lawful occupation without being assaulted by man or beast.


Hmm... Yes, protection from harm is central to most law. But that is not what is being argued here, it is 'negligence' and 'responsibility'.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Well, one of my cats seconds ago just tried to commit suicide by dog and stuck her head in his bowl while he was eating. Quite provoking behavior if you ask me, especially for a foodie dog who is not exactly fond of cats.
> Do you know what the dog did? He looked at me asking me if I was going to handle this or he would. And I quickly scooped up the cat and removed her from the room and praised the dog.
> MY mistake for putting the food bowl down before checking to see where the cat was.
> 
> Dogs have many options before resorting to a bite, and owners have many places where they can intervene before a bite happens.


Lol... Yes, and as you said... "My mistake". But you endangered the cat by allowing the dog in the same room, if some of the posts on here are to be taken literally.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Lol... Yes, and as you said... "My mistake". But you endangered the cat by allowing the dog in the same room, if some of the posts on here are to be taken literally.


I did. 
This dog has a history of killing small furries, I'm very careful about dogs and cats in the same room.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> I am merely making an observation that your argument is actually specious and not based in science. You undermine the credibiilty of your own point of view, you require no third party to fulfil that role.


Oh dear... the insulting behaviour continues. It isn't my point of view ... it is the law's point of view as already quoted.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I did.
> This dog has a history of killing small furries, I'm very careful about dogs and cats in the same room.


Accidents happen though don't they? Without any intentional or reckless negligence... and that is the point I have tried to make throughout.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Brilliant debate even if it sadly came about as the result of a member's misfortune. For me, it's late, I am tired and time for bed but thanks all.. really interesting. Sleep well and sweet dreams.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Hmm... Yes, protection from harm is central to most law. But that is not what is being argued here, it is 'negligence' and 'responsibility'.


The responsibility for the behaviour of a dog lies with the owner, end of. Unless of course the owner was entirely absent which was not the case in the scenario provided.

If the behaviour of a dog results in harm to another whilst the responsible person is present then, unless the owner can argue that this was triggered by the unreasonable act of another, negligence will be deemed to be proved.

So for example, if the postie had taken out a gun or a knife and attacked the owner and/or the dog a reasonable person would agree that the dog was provoked to bite in defence of itself or owner.

Last time I looked delivering a parcel did not fall into the realm of threatening behaviour which may be injurious to either man or beast.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Accidents happen though don't they? Without any intentional or reckless negligence... and that is the point I have tried to make throughout.


99.99 % of all accidents are entirely preventable and avoidable, they occur because people failed to adequately assess the risk, follow rules/process/instructions or by the failure to adequately train, inform or instruct as well as failure to inspect, maintain equipment and property.

All of the above comes under negligence


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> The responsibility for the behaviour of a dog lies with the owner, end of. Unless of course the owner was entirely absent which was not the case in the scenario provided.
> 
> If the behaviour of a dog results in harm to another whilst the responsible person is present then, unless the owner can argue that this was triggered by the unreasonable act of another, negligence will be deemed to be proved.
> 
> ...


Look up the case law... give me appropriate reference to it and I will take a look. Thanks for your kind assistance smokeybear it has been a pleasure. Good night.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I do not need to look it up, I have it in my possession

Good night!


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Accidents happen though don't they? Without any intentional or reckless negligence... and that is the point I have tried to make throughout.


Just because something was an accident doesn't mean it wasn't preventable. 
I'm sure it was not deliberate that the dog bite the mailman, however it was completely preventable.

If that mailman had been someone's child selling girl scout cookies would we be blaming the child for passing a box of cookies to the dog owner? Or for holding food that the dog might guard?

I don't know on what planet it is "provoking" for a neutral stranger to hand something to the dog owner. Sorry, but I find that ludicrous.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> 99.99 % of all accidents are entirely preventable and avoidable, they occur because people failed to adequately assess the risk, follow rules/process/instructions or by the failure to adequately train, inform or instruct as well as failure to inspect, maintain equipment and property.
> 
> All of the above comes under negligence


Dear oh dear, oh dear... who was it that said "to err is human; to forgive, divine". Night smokeybear, get some sleep, you appear to be getting irritated. lol


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Meanwhile, the poor dog who is non the wiser gets a bad reputation or worse and the post person might then move on to the next compensation claim.


It's a Bites for Cash Scam. Somebody call Panorama.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Just because something was an accident doesn't mean it wasn't preventable.
> I'm sure it was not deliberate that the dog bite the mailman, however it was completely preventable.
> 
> If that mailman had been someone's child selling girl scout cookies would we be blaming the child for passing a box of cookies to the dog owner? Or for holding food that the dog might guard?
> ...


Don't get too wrapped up in the detail... responsibility is all... agreed. Negligence... well... prove it.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Dear oh dear, oh dear... who was it that said "to err is human; to forgive, divine". Night smokeybear, get some sleep, you appear to be getting irritated. lol


Gosh no, I am not irritated at all, far from it, I am very amused.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

diefenbaker said:


> It's a Bites for Cash Scam. Somebody call Panorama.


Lol... I strongly suspect it would not be a first.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

diefenbaker said:


> It's a Bites for Cash Scam. Somebody call Panorama.


Brilliant!!!!!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Gosh no, I am not irritated at all, far from it, I am very amused.


Lol... good. Then we will both go to bed happy


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Lol... good. Then we will both go to bed happy


Just a question... who is liable if the Post person bit your dog? lmao


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The Komondor would not have a leg to stand on. As soon as the breed standard is read out it would be all over as they say

_The Komondor hails from Hungary, where he i*s a guarding dog* for the herds and flocks on the farms. A* dog never to be trifled with, he will take care of anything or any place that he has been taught to regard as his charge and he will do so to the utmost of his ability.*

*As a result, he is totally unsuited to a town life, where he would be miserable as well as a liability; even in the country, he requires a very well-defined territory on which he is not going to encounter a casual hiker or a visiting postman.*

Known in Hungary for a thousand years, the Komondor is descended from the Owtcharki, which was taken into Hungary by the nomadic Magyars who moved westwards from the East.

He is not a dog demanding a great deal of food and he has an easy-going attitude to exercise, but his corded coat needs regular care. Those who consider taking him on should study the breed carefully and closely before taking steps to acquire such a dog.
_
So ignoring this advice from the Kennel Club would mean the owner is indeed negligent! The owner had prior knowledge of what was likely to happen and failed to take adequate precautions.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=5127


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> The Komondor would not have a leg to stand on. As soon as the breed standard is read out it would be all over as they say
> 
> _The Komondor hails from Hungary, where he i*s a guarding dog* for the herds and flocks on the farms. A* dog never to be trifled with, he will take care of anything or any place that he has been taught to regard as his charge and he will do so to the utmost of his ability.*
> 
> ...


Presuming that the owner was aware of the availability of such advice?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Presuming that the owner was aware of the availability of such advice?


Komondors are hardly ten a penny in the UK, they are specialist dogs with specialist needs. There were 11 registerd with the KC in 2014 and 13 in 2015


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Komondors are hardly ten a penny in the UK, they are specialist dogs with specialist needs. There were 11 registerd with the KC in 2014 and 13 in 2015


Smokeybear... I actually agree with you regarding an owner being responsible for their pet, of course I do, and I certainly don't like the thought of anyone being injured. However, to prove someone negligent is not straightforward and, as I said already, if it was straightforward then there would be no need for court hearings would there.

It doesn't matter what you put on the forum by way of mitigation, the fact that courts hear cases such as this is evidence in itself that negligence can not always be proven to a satisfactory evidential level. Probability or not.

I know it would be a nice cosy world if everything was black and white with no grey shades but that is not reality. Not for you, not for me, not for the dog owner and not for the Post person.

In all of this I have merely suggested that, irrespective of reports in the Daily Mail (are they well known for their accurate and well balanced reporting, I don't know because I don't read it), PROOF is what will be required, one way or the other. And, if proof isn't up to the mark then, in my opinion, the law doesn't provide for any other outcomes than insufficient evidence or not guilty.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Don't get too wrapped up in the detail... responsibility is all... agreed. Negligence... well... prove it.


There's no need to prove it. This is not a court of law. Even if it were.. the only evidence so far is the OP's one and only post and he's not been sworn in. Then we'd have to wait for the postman to join the forum to give his testimony. Where's Rinder when you need him ?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

diefenbaker said:


> There's no need to prove it. This is not a court of law. Even if it were.. the only evidence so far is the OP's one and only post and he's not been sworn in. Then we'd have to wait for the postman to join the forum to give his testimony. Where's Rinder when you need him ?


Absolutely... lmao. Spot on.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Smokeybear... I actually agree with you regarding an owner being responsible for their pet, of course I do, and I certainly don't like the thought of anyone being injured. However, to prove someone negligent is not straightforward and, as I said already, if it was straightforward then there would be no need for court hearings would there.
> 
> It doesn't matter what you put on the forum by way of mitigation, the fact that courts hear cases such as this is evidence in itself that negligence can not always be proven to a satisfactory evidential level. Probability or not.
> 
> ...


Good heavens all of the above is of course a complete surprise to me, who knew?!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Good heavens all of the above is of course a complete surprise to me, who knew?!


In any event... I only joined at 5.40pm today and I have 5 trophies already... YAY!!! Thanks all for helping me along here but particularly thanks to smokeybear who kept the conversation going long enough for me to move up the rankings ;-)


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> I have a Working Line GSD and a Malinois, both trained for IPO, they are not for the faint hearted. They guard property, people and livestock and, objects.
> 
> They have not bitten any postmen, I would be mortified if they did.
> 
> But I never put my dogs or others at risk


I always shut Dillon another room before I open the front door,

1. So his size doesn't frighten anyone or someone frighten him.
2. So he doesn't get out and run off.

Not that I think he'd do either but not worth the risk.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Oh wow I knew this would be good when I saw the number of pages lol

I think people are getting legally and morally mixed up and they're not the same at all sometimes.

Legally owner is totally in the wrong.
Morally dog should have been put away as well.

Postie is legally totally blameless and for the most part morally too but if I were him and was being barked at I'd probably at least ask if the dog was ok if not to have it removed.

Whats happened has happened, yes it could have been prevented, but all that's left now is to learn from it and move on. Put in better door procedures and maybe spend some time train dog about how to behave when door bell goes.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Wow. This thread went walkabout.

To the op;



Chris BS said:


> Upon delivering a parcel, my wife opened the door whilst holding our 1 year old Komondor back who was barking at the postman.


I am sorry this happened but hopefully this is a situation you have learned from. And anyone else who is tempted to greet strangers at the front door with an aroused dog. Barking is a sign of arousal. Holding an aroused dog by the collar is likely to increase this arousal (through adding to their fear and frustration) and in turn increase their liability to react. In other words bite.

And this is true whatever breed you have.

Preventing this happening comes under management and the proviso of having your dog under control. Get a gate.



> We dont know what to do....can anyone offer any advice and what can we expect to happen??


You have been given the advice of speaking to a professional. I suspect that in this case you will most likely receive a letter from the Post Office who will no longer deliver to your address. So long as the injury didn't warrant hospitalisation/time off work you may be lucky in that they don't take it further. It is frightening but hopefully, without wishing to sound harsh, it will serve as a wake up call....it could have been a lot worse.

J


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Wee T said:


> FFS I am absolutely astounded and not just a little disgusted at the turn this thread has taken.
> 
> You obviously haven't tried Propercorn. I recommend Peanut and Almond or Coconut and Sweet Almond for those with a very sweet tooth.
> 
> ...


I want to like this 100 times over!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Did you know you can now get "Poshcorn"? They do a coconut and caramel flavour


Can we please not forget the best popcorn in the world, Butterkist Toffee. You have to suck the popcorn out the middle and then crunch the toffee coating; sooo satisfying


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> The Komondor would not have a leg to stand on. As soon as the breed standard is read out it would be all over as they say
> 
> _The Komondor hails from Hungary, where he i*s a guarding dog* for the herds and flocks on the farms. A* dog never to be trifled with, he will take care of anything or any place that he has been taught to regard as his charge and he will do so to the utmost of his ability.*
> 
> ...


I find it both fascinating and sadly ironic that the breed standard mentions postmen :Hilarious

Interestingly enough though the Komondor can and is regularly shown in the UK where judges are expected to handle the dogs body, mouth etc. Therefore implying that a Komondor should be a thinking LSG rather than an attack now ask questions later dog.

Compare this was some LSG breeds who are shown on the continent where is a judge is not allowed to touch the dog. They have to assess from afar due to the protective nature of the breed, they're often brought straight from their flocks into the show and then taken straight back!

Although now I think there's a bit of a movement to make them more acceptable showdogs


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Can we please not forget the best popcorn in the world, Butterkist Toffee. You have to suck the popcorn out the middle and then crunch the toffee coating; sooo satisfying


Ah yes ompus

There was regular family feuds over the crunchiest pieces at the bottom of a Butterkist bag. Fond memories.


----------



## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Rach&Miko said:


> Oh wow I knew this would be good when I saw the number of pages lol
> 
> I think people are getting legally and morally mixed up and they're not the same at all sometimes.
> 
> ...


For the most part I agree, however, let's not be prejudicial... the owner has not yet proved to be legally in the wrong. Innocent until proven guilty. As one of the members stated last night this isn't a court and nobody has been sworn in.. lol. You are right, all that can be given (for those who are minded to can give it) is a moral judgement. Unfortunately, for those of us that are human, accidents and momentary lapses in judgement sometimes happen.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> I'll let you be a demi-god  You can be part of my club :Couchpotato:Hilarious:Hilarious


Wait.. what? How did a new club spring up? That's not fair! I hate not being in the in-crowd :Bawling


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> You are right, all that can be given (for those who are minded to can give it) is a moral judgement.


No. Some of us can give advice. Which is actually what was asked for.

J


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Chris BS This happened to me. The posties manager came to my home. It was a minor incident and wasnr reported to the police. However a couple of months later the union conracted me and said the postie wanted compensation . He accepted forty pounds. Your household insurance will cover.
If it were serious the police would visit and it would be a criminal case.
Try not to worry and wait and see what happens.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Lauren5159 said:


> Skip does fast, he does it well! It's them long legs... He could even chase the posties down holes, like his forefathers used to do to foxes and badgers!
> 
> The tag-team of Postie nightmares!!!


Haha, I have images of loads of teeny tiny postmen scampering down rabbit holes now


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> No. Some of us can give advice. Which is actually what was asked for.
> 
> J


Sorry Jamesgoeswalkies, didn't notice anyone's legal credentials. Perhaps they should be stated before the post so that we are more aware of what is 'legal fact' and what is moral judgement.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

How is this 9 pages ?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> This happened to me. The posties manager came to my home. It was a minor incident and wasnr reported to the police. However a couple of months later the union conracted me and said the postie wanted compensation . He accepted forty pounds. Your household insurance will cover.
> If it were serious the police would visit and it would be a criminal case.
> Try not to worry and wait and see what happens.


He accepted £40? Wow... how did they work out what was due? £5 per finger bitten or???


----------



## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Hanwombat said:


> How is this 9 pages ?


Lol... indeed.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Wait.. what? How did a new club spring up? That's not fair! I hate not being in the in-crowd :Bawling


Alright Dex and Lola can be honoury members of the 'Dogs the Size of Sheep Club'


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> How is this 9 pages ?


Owner didnt correctly manage dog (possibly uber special snowflake breed), dog bit a postman a bit, Popcorn, kale crisps, caviar, someone spouting "law" - its not the owners fault you know, them being corrected - is a pretty good summary......


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Owner didnt correctly manage dog (possibly uber special snowflake breed), dog bit a postman a bit, Popcorn, kale crisps, caviar, someone spouting "law" - its not the owners fault you know, them being corrected - is a pretty good summary......


I now vote @Lexiedhb is the summary writer for all lengthy threads :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> Owner didnt correctly manage dog (possibly uber special snowflake breed), dog bit a postman a bit, Popcorn, kale crisps, caviar, someone spouting "law" - its not the owners fault you know, them being corrected - is a pretty good summary......


Pretty damn accurate I would say for a one sentence summary.. lol


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I now vote @Lexiedhb is the summary writer for all lengthy threads :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


LOL... Got my vote.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Owner didnt correctly manage dog (possibly uber special snowflake breed), dog bit a postman a bit, Popcorn, kale crisps, caviar, someone spouting "law" - its not the owners fault you know, them being corrected - is a pretty good summary......


Cheers!  As I haven't got time to look through them all


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Sorry Jamesgoeswalkies, didn't notice anyone's legal credentials. Perhaps they should be stated before the post so that we are more aware of what is 'legal fact' and what is moral judgement.


I gave behavioural advice (far better to be one step ahead than one step behind) and my experience in what happens after a dog has bitten. No moral judgement required.

J


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> @Chris BS This happened to me. The posties manager came to my home. It was a minor incident and wasnr reported to the police. However a couple of months later the union conracted me and said the postie wanted compensation . He accepted forty pounds. Your household insurance will cover.
> If it were serious the police would visit and it would be a criminal case.
> Try not to worry and wait and see what happens.


It is a criminal offence for a dog to bite someone.

The severity of the bite does not govern whether or not police will visit.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Pretty damn accurate I would say for a one sentence summary.. lol


Though, I didn't say it wasn't the owner's fault but, rather, it appears that, legally, negligence has to be proven first. According to the accident lawyer's statement on a similar situation anyway.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As an aside it is very cheap to become a member here  http://www.doglawsos.co.uk/?gclid=CKGIlpeprswCFbMK0wod5JYHPQ


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I gave behavioural advice (far better to be one step ahead than one step behind) and my experience in what happens after a dog has bitten. No moral judgement required.
> 
> J


Oh, I must have misread your last post then. Apologies.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> It is a criminal offence for a dog to bite someone.
> 
> The severity of the bite does not govern whether or not police will visit.


Morning smokeybear  Did you sleep well?


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> For the most part I agree, however, let's not be prejudicial... the owner has not yet proved to be legally in the wrong. Innocent until proven guilty. As one of the members stated last night this isn't a court and nobody has been sworn in.. lol. You are right, all that can be given (for those who are minded to can give it) is a moral judgement. Unfortunately, for those of us that are human, accidents and momentary lapses in judgement sometimes happen.


True but based on the very first post (and as always we can only go on what is written on here) "the dog has bitten the postie"... And the law won't hold the dog responsible for its own actions for a start you couldn't swear him in lol

Also damn you all!!!! I want butterkist for breakfast now!!!! :Hilarious

ETA: did anyone see the story on PC Peach?? Bloody brilliant!


----------



## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Rach&Miko said:


> True but based on the very first post (and as always we can only go on what is written on here) "the dog has bitten the postie"... And the law won't hold the dog responsible for its own actions for a start you couldn't swear him in lol
> 
> Also damn you all!!!! I want butterkist for breakfast now!!!! :Hilarious
> 
> ETA: did anyone see the story on PC Peach?? Bloody brilliant!


Yes, a rather unfortunate and, perhaps, ill advised admission did get the owner metaphorically hung in this thread it appears. I felt awful for the owner irrespective of detail but then again I am not (and never will be) one of the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Alright Dex and Lola can be honoury members of the 'Dogs the Size of Sheep Club'


Hurrah!! Technically they are the same size as sheep, you just didn't clarify what age the sheep was...


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Hurrah!! Technically they are the same size as sheep, you just didn't clarify what age the sheep was...


Perhaps this helps? lol .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouessant_sheep


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Perhaps this helps? lol .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouessant_sheep


But these are cuter http://www.mylittlesheep.com/index.htm


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> But these are cuter http://www.mylittlesheep.com/index.htm


Awww,


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Dogs may react to all sorts of things, that is why it is the owner's job to take account of this.
> 
> This reminds me of all the idiots I meet who excuse their dog's inappropriate behaviour with phrases such as "she/he is a rescue" "she/he does not like dogs on leads" "she/he does not people wearing hats" (yes I have heard all these).
> 
> ...


oh my goodness, do not pass out SB but I actually agree with you totally -though sometimes it is a reasonable part of an apology for allowing the dog to behave badly rather than a real excuse.



DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I would think that the whole situation would depend on whether you could be proved negligent as an owner.. i.e did you have any reason to believe the dog would bite? Has your dog bitten before in a similar situation? Plus... were there any photos taken at the time? Did you sign something to say that it was your dog that bit? Was there any witnesses to it?
> 
> For all intents and purposes, if you had no reason to think that your dog would or could bite then why would you think to put preventative measures in place. Additionally, who is to say that the postman was not already bitten by another dog before he came to your house? Was it your dog that drew blood? Can you be certain of that?
> 
> Lots to think about and certainly, as others have pointed out already, be ready with a solicitor just in case.


I expect the postman had been bitten several times during that round and just chose the sheep sized dog to blame.



Pappychi said:


> I do feel for you OP and hope you're not too stressed x
> 
> However, with some of the posts on here, this has been an interesting thread! Now all we need is a random picture of a collie with some tenuous link about him being a big, fluffy lovebug and we will have had a full house


Ha ha. Collies are probably the most likely to bite as they dive in as someone turns round. My sheepdog was a full frontal attacker though. Never managed it because people respected her but a lot of people were scared to come to the door just in case. She loved the postman so all was well!



DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Ahhhh.... now we are getting somewhere. Is it law that you dog should be trained and be made behaviourally social?


It is not the law that you have to train your dog and make it social but it is the law that if your dog is out of control or scares or bites someone then you have committed an offence.



Pappychi said:


> I find it both fascinating and sadly ironic that the breed standard mentions postmen :Hilarious
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Blitz said:


> oh my goodness, do not pass out SB but I actually agree with you totally -though sometimes it is a reasonable part of an apology for allowing the dog to behave badly rather than a real excuse.
> 
> I expect the postman had been bitten several times during that round and just chose the sheep sized dog to blame.
> 
> ...


I am not sure that a guard dog guarding the house would be deemed as out of control and, again, it appears that negligence has to be proved for an offence to have been committed. I would think that, in Criminal Law at least, both the act itself and intention or recklessness would have to be proved.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I am not sure that a guard dog guarding the house would be deemed as out of control and, again, it appears that negligence has to be proved for an offence to have been committed. I would think that, in Criminal Law at least, both the act itself and intention or recklessness would have to be proved.


I think you might find that it is an offence to allow your dog to bite anyone on your property unless it is reasonable force against a burglar. Get up to date with the law.

In fact, long before the law changed, I know of someone who had to have their dog put down because a neighbour came into the house uninvited and with only the dog at home. Dog was asleep and did not pay any attention till the neighbour accidentally trod on him and then he bit him. I am not sure whether it went to court or if the neighbour made such a fuss the owner gave in and had the dog put to sleep.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I am not sure that a guard dog guarding the house would be deemed as out of control and, again, it appears that negligence has to be proved for an offence to have been committed. I would think that, in Criminal Law at least, both the act itself and intention or recklessness would have to be proved.


Have you read the Dangerous dogs act? It might beg to differ.


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

I don't think anyone was suggesting they're a special snowflake or need some special consideration. More that anyone who decides to pass a package over a barking dogs head who looks like this, without first checking with the owner, is a little bit daft.

And as the Royal Mail worker said in this thread "It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door".


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## Anneboxermad (Dec 27, 2015)

I'm just not


DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Presuming that the owner was aware of the availability of such advice?[/QUOTE THE dog should of been put in another room. My ziggy loves everyone but that dosent mean if I feel he would jump up. Or when he gets older may or may not be nice to the postman. He will be put behind the stairgate, as he is now in till he's calmed down to meet people.


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Darn, only found this thread this morning ... not a good time for popcorn ... but have enjoyed two coffees so far.

The OP was obviously negligent, but sometimes circumstances allow shite to happen and we just have to deal with the consequences.

But the Postman was also negligent or lacking in *common sense* (that phrase again). No-one needs special training or knowledge to realise that a sheep (large sheep) sized dog barking at them could possibly bite an arm passing over his head.

What about the breeders association though? These poor animals are bred to be guard dogs, and are then sold to a sweet suburban couple and let loose on the neighborhood. There are too many ignorant people owning specialty breeds with little or no knowledge of their special needs.

There should be training sessions complete with verbal and/or written tests before anyone is allowed to own such potentially "dangerous" animals. They are bred to behave the way they do and then because of _"we just have to have one"_ buyers, and unscrupulous breeders who see the cash coming in, the poor "pets" are expected to behave the way *we want them to*.

Animal instinct can't be eliminated.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Blitz said:


> oh my goodness, do not pass out SB but I actually agree with you totally -though sometimes it is a reasonable part of an apology for allowing the dog to behave badly rather than a real excuse.
> 
> I expect the postman had been bitten several times during that round and just chose the sheep sized dog to blame.
> 
> ...


Yes... it appears that the cases are a matter of strict liability. Source of information: http://www.dogbiteclaims.co.uk/dog-attacks-on-private-property.html

Dog Attacks on Private Property
February 2013 was seen as a turning point for many campaigners who had highlighted the inadequacies of legal powers for the police to tackle irresponsible dog owners when dog attacks occur on private property. The Government's announcement that dangerous dog legislation will extend to cover private property has meant that an attack which occurs on private property will now attract both criminal and civil liability.

*Criminal Liability *

The legislative changes of the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 mean that dog owners will no longer be immune from prosecution if they fail to stop their dog attacking a person in their home, or on someone else's private property. These changes have been intended to give protection to those who temporarily enter private property, such as healthcare, postal or utility workers, and where private property is shared with other residents. Therefore, if you are attacked on private property and you are an invited guest, then you will attract the same legal rights as there would have been had the attack occurred in a public place. Owners of the dangerous dog may face criminal prosecution, and victims could be entitled to be compensated for any injuries.

Changes to criminal liability have been welcomed by unions representing these workers who have claimed this was a major loophole in this area of law. The CWU postal union has claimed that 23,000 postmen and women have been attacked by dogs in the last five years and as many as 70% of these have taken place on private property[1].

However, the Act provides an exception in "householder" cases. This is where a dog is dangerously out of control while in a house or part of a house or forces accommodation and the victim of the attack is a trespasser or is believed to be a trespasser. In such a case, trespassers will have no protection from the criminal law if they are attacked by a householder's dog.

The Act has also enabled prosecutions to be brought for attacks on guide dogs and other assistance dogs recognising the damaging impact the loss of an assistance dog can have on an individual's independence and quality of life.

*Civil Liability*

Establishing civil liability against dog owners for attacks that have occurred on private property is covered by another piece of legislation, the Animals Act 1971, although the Act has been criticised for being complicated and confusing. The Act imposes strict liability on the owner, or person in possession of an animal which means that they will be liable regardless of fault. Section 2(2) states that for strict liability to apply the damage caused by an animal must be:


Likely to be severe, and
The likelihood of the damage being severe was due to the characteristics of the animal which are not normally found in animals of the same species, or are not normally so found except at particular times or particular circumstances, and
The characteristics were known to that keeper or were known to the person who had charge of the animal.
A successful demonstration of these requirements would entitle a victim to a legal right of compensation. However exceptions are available where the damage is due wholly to the fault of the person suffering it, or where they have voluntarily accepted the risk.

A victim of an attack may also have the right to compensation where an unprovoked dog attack is the result of a negligent owner. If a dog attacks someone then it may well be because the owner failed to properly control the animal and if there is knowledge of the dog's aggressive behaviour in the past, this may make it easier to prove negligence.

A dog attack can range in severity from bite wounds, to facial disfigurement to psychological damage such as post-traumatic stress disorder which are all treated by our solicitors with the same level of seriousness and commitment. Compensation can also cover the cost of medical expenses and loss of income. It is essential that the claims are made within three years from the date of the injury to ensure they are not time barred.

These legislative and common law principles grant invited guests and professionals who enter the private property the opportunity to claim compensation for any attack sustained.

Recent years have seen an increase in dog-attacks on private property which have resulted in fatalities. An attack on Clifford Clarke in March 2013 resulted in two women being arrested and bailed on suspicion of manslaughter. Another fatal attack in March 2013 which tragically took the life of 14 year old Jade Anderson saw the owner of the animals given a suspended 16-week sentence[2].

Compensation has also been successfully awarded to victims on private property. Mr Sabine was awarded £2,500 in a settlement with the owners of a dangerous dog for bruising and wounds suffered in an attack in 2010 which resulted in scarring. In May 2009, a postal worker received severe injuries to her hand when violently pulled through a letterbox by a dog from behind the front door. Her injuries required medical attention and surgery and left her unable to continue her job as a postal worker. The total compensation received here was £100,000.

The psychological and physical impact a dog attack can have on a victim can be devastating. Legal redress, both criminal and civil, should be exhausted by the victim to adequately restore them to the position they would have been had the harm not occurred.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Mellowredsa said:


> Darn, only found this thread this morning ... not a good time for popcorn ... but have enjoyed two coffees so far.
> 
> The OP was obviously negligent, but sometimes circumstances allow shite to happen and we just have to deal with the consequences.
> 
> ...


Totally agree.


----------



## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting they're a special snowflake or need some special consideration. More that anyone who decides to pass a package over a barking dogs head who looks like this, without first checking with the owner, is a little bit daft.
> 
> And as the Royal Mail worker said in this thread "It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door".


My goodness. Can they run fast? Just asking in case I see one.


----------



## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting they're a special snowflake or need some special consideration. More that anyone who decides to pass a package over a barking dogs head who looks like this, without first checking with the owner, is a little bit daft.
> 
> And as the Royal Mail worker said in this thread "It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door".


Absolutely and what's more... allegedly 23,000 postmen have been bitten!!! Erm, is it just me that thinks this or should the post office be taking some responsibility here? 23,000!!!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Perhaps Royal Mail should insist on these >>>> https://www.safe.co.uk/Categories/u...3uEt1iRO_D28bBpajpcXt8UTM6V08vZOw1RoCJpLw_wcB


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mellowredsa said:


> Darn, only found this thread this morning ... not a good time for popcorn ... but have enjoyed two coffees so far.
> 
> The OP was obviously negligent, but sometimes circumstances allow shite to happen and we just have to deal with the consequences.
> 
> ...


This is it in a nutshell for me... Breeders selling dogs to inexperienced people, more so when they get working lines from abroad, and then end up with no support from the breeder and even less from a very small community of owners in the UK. It personally scares the life out of me that they allow these dogs to go to people with very little dog experience, little or no large breed experience and no guarding breed experience. I pity the dogs....


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Mellowredsa said:


> Darn, only found this thread this morning ... not a good time for popcorn ... but have enjoyed two coffees so far.
> 
> The OP was obviously negligent, but sometimes circumstances allow shite to happen and we just have to deal with the consequences.
> 
> ...


I'm inclined to agree with you... However...

Whilst I'm not one for thinking everything should be policed and licences for everything... If something like this was put in place it should be for ALL breeds. Your cute, fluffy, widdle madeupapoo can be just as dangerous as your special snowflake sheep sized dog (i love the internet no one knows I have a lisp lol!).


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Rach&Miko said:


> I'm inclined to agree with you... However...
> 
> Whilst I'm not one for thinking everything should be policed and licences for everything... If something like this was put in place it should be for ALL breeds. Your cute, fluffy, widdle madeupapoo can be just as dangerous as your special snowflake sheep sized dog (i love the internet no one knows I have a lisp lol!).


For me it is this... As an employer I would be legally required to give my staff training and protection from harm if I was sending them into a potentially hazardous situation or I would be held criminally liable but those responsible for delivering the mail, knowing that 23,000 (allegedly) of their employees get attacked by dogs, appears to only send their post-people out with a pair of shorts, a shirt, a sack of letters and a chirpy whistle. THAT... is surely negligence?


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

I wasn't saying there couldn't be better training or protection for posties - I was referring only to dog ownership training in that post.

As I don't work in the RM I've no idea what training and protection is in place but its obviously taken seriously where dogs are concerned (someone mentioned tongs, manager talks, redirection of mail etc.). That's not to say it couldn't be better but not knowing the Ins and outs its not my place to say - only to offer my opinion or speculate 

As you say the 23,000 bites are alleged and other things to consider with that are - over what time period, how many places are delivered to in that time period, how many of those premises have dogs, also how many posties have been bitten (is it possible there is a postie out there who hates dogs / can't read dogs etc. Who finds himself in that position more often)... I'm sure if all those factors and others that I've forgotten were filled in 23000 wouldn't really be a lot correlatively... And I'm not saying 23000 isn't bad - of course it is in an ideal world it would be none!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> For me it is this... As an employer I would be legally required to give my staff training and protection from harm if I was sending them into a potentially hazardous situation or I would be held criminally liable but those responsible for delivering the mail, knowing that 23,000 (allegedly) of their employees get attacked by dogs, appears to only send their post-people out with a pair of shorts, a shirt, a sack of letters and a chirpy whistle. THAT... is surely negligence?


So what would you suggest. The only safe answer would be that any house with any dog or dogs in it do not get postal deliveries. What fun! While one or two owners are allowing their dogs to be out of control on their property there would be no other answer if the onus was put on the post office. So I would keep very quiet if I were you or you might find you have a trip to the sorting office every day.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Since 2013 the RM have been carrying out awareness weeks they work with all the major dog charities they are committed to training and protecting their workers, but they can only do so much. Owners have a responsibility to control their dogs irrespective of breed, and if your dog is the size of a sheep *rolls eyes* and it's known for its protective traits YOU are 100% responsible for your dogs safety and that of those around you going about their daily business.... People are unpredictable even clued up ones, you chose to take on a certain breed you are responsible for making sure you don't set your dog up to fail irrespective of how other people act, if you can't be or you expect to be given a special bye because of a breeds traits go get a stuffed toy....


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> He accepted forty pounds.


Forty pounds ?!? This must have been when there was a Penny Black on your letter.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting they're a special snowflake or need some special consideration. More that anyone who decides to pass a package over a barking dogs head who looks like this, without first checking with the owner, is a little bit daft.
> 
> And as the Royal Mail worker said in this thread "It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door".


Sorry but I fail to understand why you think the appearance of the dog should alert anyone who doesn't know the breed or even recognise the breed to the likelihood of getting bitten. I've never met one, never seen one anywhere and had no idea of their guarding nature. If you own a dog with a strong guarding nature then YOU have to be extra cautious about who and how you let your dog meet/interact with people it is not up to the postie/or any other person to decide how friendly or aggressive a dog is likely to be.

Anyone who meets a dog that looks like this and passes something through the door without checking with the owner first is likely to get piddle on their shoes and their face washed but doesn't mean I'm about to put her or them at risk - for instance I have steps leading up to my front door, just the sight of a rottie bouncing up and down could cause someone to step backwards without looking and fall down the steps and injure themselves so why take the risk?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I need a sign on my door saying 'please don't step on the guard dog' , they are the size of new born lambs but very loud !


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Blitz said:


> So what would you suggest. The only safe answer would be that any house with any dog or dogs in it do not get postal deliveries. What fun! While one or two owners are allowing their dogs to be out of control on their property there would be no other answer if the onus was put on the post office. So I would keep very quiet if I were you or you might find you have a trip to the sorting office every day.


No... what I am suggesting is that the responsibility is on both. Thereby, it should not really be a matter for strict liability. I do hate to think that the immense financial and legal sway of the Unions tipped the balance against the humble dog owner when the law was being decided upon. Until someone with the wealth and power challenges the law then I guess we will never know.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

A brief story...

About 20 years ago a customer asked me to carry a bulk bag of pet food to their van for them as they couldn't carry it. I did so and when the customer opened the back door I was greeted by a German Shepherd which obediently stayed in the van and allowed me to place the pet food in the back. As I turned away the dog lunged and I moved out of the way, all was okay. However, as I walked away, the dog lept out of the van and bit me in a very nasty place. Was it me at fault for risking putting the food onto the van when I knew a German Shepherd was guarding it, was it the dog's fault for doing it's job or was it the owner's fault for allowing me to put myself at risk and for not restraining the dog? Remember... I went to the van and loaded it of my own volition.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> Since 2013 the RM have been carrying out awareness weeks they work with all the major dog charities they are committed to training and protecting their workers, but they can only do so much. Owners have a responsibility to control their dogs irrespective of breed, and if your dog is the size of a sheep *rolls eyes* and it's known for its protective traits YOU are 100% responsible for your dogs safety and that of those around you going about their daily business.... People are unpredictable even clued up ones, you chose to take on a certain breed you are responsible for making sure you don't set your dog up to fail irrespective of how other people act, if you can't be or you expect to be given a special bye because of a breeds traits go get a stuffed toy....


What a load of palava... why not just tell everyone that by law they have to have an exterior mail box if they own a dog? SIMPLES


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> A brief story...
> 
> About 20 years ago a customer asked me to carry a bulk bag of pet food to their van for them as they couldn't carry it. I did so and when the customer opened the back door I was greeted by a German Shepherd which obediently stayed in the van and allowed me to place the pet food in the back. As I turned away the dog lunged and I moved out of the way, all was okay. However, as I walked away, the dog lept out of the van and bit me in a very nasty place. Was it me at fault for risking putting the food onto the van when I knew a German Shepherd was guarding it, was it the dog's fault for doing it's job or was it the owner's fault for allowing me to put myself at risk and for not restraining the dog? Remember... I went to the van and loaded it of my own volition.


Ok forgive me because I think I've got lost somewhere in the popcorn part of the thread...

Which option do you want us pick? Because based on your previous posts I'd have said none of the above you'd blame the company you work for for not providing appropriate training and protection...?

Personally though I'd say the owner. She should have warned you the dog was there and had him suitably restrained. Dont get me wrong we all make mistakes and accidents happen but out of those choices that's what I'd say.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> What a load of palava... why not just tell everyone that by law they have to have an exterior mail box if they own a dog? SIMPLES


I have managed to get through a few decades having dogs of having workmen in the house, postmen deliver, furniture delivered, pizza, flowers etc and have not had a dog bite anyone, even to the extent of workmen leaning over a 6ft fence to try and stroke previous dogs, it not hard... our door knocks our dogs are asked to go and lie down. They do not ever greet anyone ever at the door.

I agree mistakes happen, but also think 1000's happen a day when simple measures would have stopped them.

Cian loves our postman, he was introduced to him at 8 weeks and every week from then on, he still never greeted him at the door....


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting they're a special snowflake or need some special consideration. More that anyone who decides to pass a package over a barking dogs head who looks like this, without first checking with the owner, is a little bit daft.
> 
> And as the Royal Mail worker said in this thread "It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door".


I'm more than a little dismayed that anyone would blame the mail carrier for being bitten. The man was doing his job. Surely it is our responsibility as dog owners that when people come to our house to do their job we should keep our dogs out of their way both for their safety and the dog's?

What if that were the neighbor's child who was bringing over a neighborly present? Or simply returning a package that was delivered to the wrong house? Would you also blame the child for getting bitten?

I just don't understand that mentality of others needing to adjust to dog owners, that's the mentality that leads to more and more restrictive laws when it comes to dogs. 
Seriously? How do you own a dog like a komondor and have the attitude that others need to get out of your way? Oh, right, I guess that's why one would own a dog like that. But it's the dog who gets PTS if it gets bad sadly, not the owner.

Dogs are not a right, they are a privilege, and expecting others to adjust to you as a dog owner instead of you making adjustments to others is selfish and detrimental to all dog owners.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> A brief story...
> 
> About 20 years ago a customer asked me to carry a bulk bag of pet food to their van for them as they couldn't carry it. I did so and when the customer opened the back door I was greeted by a German Shepherd which obediently stayed in the van and allowed me to place the pet food in the back. As I turned away the dog lunged and I moved out of the way, all was okay. However, as I walked away, the dog lept out of the van and bit me in a very nasty place. Was it me at fault for risking putting the food onto the van when I knew a German Shepherd was guarding it, was it the dog's fault for doing it's job or was it the owner's fault for allowing me to put myself at risk and for not restraining the dog? Remember... I went to the van and loaded it of my own volition.


The owners.... For putting you and the dog in that position...


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> What a load of palava... why not just tell everyone that by law they have to have an exterior mail box if they own a dog? SIMPLES


Dex would be gutted if the postman only came as far as the gate and then left again. He loves him and demands belly rubs whenever he sees him


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## Mellowredsa (Apr 17, 2016)

Rach&Miko said:


> I'm inclined to agree with you... However...
> 
> Whilst I'm not one for thinking everything should be policed and licences for everything... If something like this was put in place it should be for ALL breeds. Your cute, fluffy, widdle madeupapoo can be just as dangerous as your special snowflake sheep sized dog (i love the internet no one knows I have a lisp lol!).


100% agree. A prime example here is the Miniature Yorkshire Terrier. Beautiful little babies. I have personally witnessed these little poppets being treated like human babies and being fed sweets, dressed in frills, permanently carried about, and basically never being allowed to be what they are ... dogs! They then develop social issues and dying from digestive problems.

I spoil my cats, treat them like little babies and apply all sorts of human emotions to them but have to remember that they are not human (thank God) and will kill birds and lizards and deliver them to my pillow . That's what cats do - if I can't deal with it I can't own cats.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

My closing thoughts are this (and then I am done on this thread..lol)... Of course I totally believe in responsible pet ownership, of course I absolutely do not like to hear of anyone injured as a result of accident or negligence (whether via work or otherwise). When my lads were little I told them not to go near dogs (in particular dogs they don't know) because they may give them a nasty bite which will hurt. Fortunately they listened and did as they were told. Why then is it not possible for an adult post-person to heed the same warning and act in accordance. It isn't rocket science. Perhaps the compensation possibility outweighs someone's will to apply good old fashioned common sense? I don't know and neither am I an expert on such matters. I am not naive and I realise that not all cases are the same, perhaps that fact alone brings strict liability law into question? Not for me to say. But all in all this has been a really interesting thread.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Rach&Miko said:


> Ok forgive me because I think I've got lost somewhere in the popcorn part of the thread...
> 
> Which option do you want us pick? Because based on your previous posts I'd have said none of the above you'd blame the company you work for for not providing appropriate training and protection...?
> 
> Personally though I'd say the owner. She should have warned you the dog was there and had him suitably restrained. Dont get me wrong we all make mistakes and accidents happen but out of those choices that's what I'd say.


I owned the company.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> The owners.... For putting you and the dog in that position...


Hmmm... I would still suggest both me and the owner.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Dex would be gutted if the postman only came as far as the gate and then left again. He loves him and demands belly rubs whenever he sees him


At your risk or the postman's?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> At your risk or the postman's?


I'm not getting involved in that argument


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> When my lads were little I told them not to go near dogs (in particular dogs they don't know) because they may give them a nasty bite which will hurt. Fortunately they listened and did as they were told. Why then is it not possible for an adult post-person to heed the same warning and act in accordance. It isn't rocket science. Perhaps the compensation possibility outweighs someone's will to apply good old fashioned common sense?


Wow, really? You think the postman was deliberately endangering himself in order to earn some sort of compensation?
Why didn't the postman heed you're oh so sage advice to avoid dogs? Because his job requires him to deliver the package duh! He was trying to fulfill the requirements of his job!
Unbelievable!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm not getting involved in that argument


Quite. But currently if your dog decided it didn't like it's belly rubbed that day and bit the postman then you are being negligent.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> What a load of palava... why not just tell everyone that by law they have to have an exterior mail box if they own a dog? SIMPLES


I've got a locked exterior mail box with a slot for newspapers but the postie still has to ring the bell for parcels especially those that require a signature. Like others I've owned GSD/rotties for over 30 years and have never had a workman/postie/visitor bitten, been bitten myself and so has OH a few times but have never put strangers or the dogs at risk by using very simple management measures.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Wow, really? You think the postman was deliberately endangering himself in order to earn some sort of compensation?
> Why didn't the postman heed you're oh so sage advice to avoid dogs? Because his job requires him to deliver the package duh! He was trying to fulfill the requirements of his job!
> Unbelievable!


Word is that there are a lot of parent 'sages' out there. Go figure.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've got a locked exterior mail box with a slot for newspapers but the postie still has to ring the bell for parcels especially those that require a signature. Like others I've owned GSD/rotties for over 30 years and have never had a workman/postie/visitor bitten, been bitten myself and so has OH a few times but have never put strangers or the dogs at risk by using very simple management measures.


Yep and by those two actions alone, if everyone applied the same logic, 23,000 dog bites and compensation claims would be reduced to a handful I would imagine.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Wow, really? You think the postman was deliberately endangering himself in order to earn some sort of compensation?
> Why didn't the postman heed you're oh so sage advice to avoid dogs? Because his job requires him to deliver the package duh! He was trying to fulfill the requirements of his job!
> Unbelievable!


I didn't imply that no. Really just suggesting that compensation is not a preventative measure.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Quite. But currently if your dog decided it didn't like it's belly rubbed that day and bit the postman then you are being negligent.


I already told you that I'm not getting involved in your argument, so please give it a rest


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I didn't imply that no. Really just suggesting that compensation is not a preventative measure.


Has anyone suggested it is?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Has anyone suggested it is?


In the absence of any other preventative measure by the post-person then perhaps it could be described as an indirect implication.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> In the absence of any other preventative measure by the post-person then perhaps it could be described as an indirect implication.


So you are suggesting the postman deliberately endangered himself?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> So you are suggesting the postman deliberately endangered himself?


I spotted the question mark at the end of your post but can't make out whether you are accusing me or asking a question.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> So you are suggesting the postman deliberately endangered himself?


In the case of a question... I have a question first. Does a scaffolder deliberately endanger themselves? A steeplejack? A tunneller? If the answer is yes then why should a postperson with the knowledge that dogs can and do bite be not afforded the same level of personal responsibility?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I spotted the question mark at the end of your post but can't make out whether you are accusing me or asking a question.


I'm asking you because it's gobsmacking to me that you (or anyone) would blame the postman for being bitten while trying to fulfill the requirements of his job.

It wasn't like he broke in to the house to deliver a package. The owner was right there, holding the dog. One can also argue that the postman would think that if the owner allowed the dog to be at the door to greet him, the dog was safe. Why wouldn't he think it was okay to do something so benign as hand a package over to an owner who was reaching for it?!


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

Interesting that the CWU says 23,000 (in five years) when the Royal Mail says just under 3,000 (in a year http://www.royalmailgroup.com/customers/customer-commitment/preventing-dog-attacks). The maths doesn't compute but I presume the CWU is including all mail and parcel delivery firms and not only the Royal Mail.

Also interesting is that royal mail article putting almost all the onus on dog owners for preventing harm to postmen and women. Quite rightly, in my opinion. I decided to keep a dog, I am responsible for him, by law and by choice. Incidentally I don't believe my dog would ever seek to harm a person, he's more likely to lick someone to death than anything else and I trust him not to hurt people. However one never knows what the person's reaction might be, and also I live on a busy street and Max could potentially run out into the road. So, our habit is and always has been for him to get put in the kitchen when the doorbell goes or someone knocks. He doesn't even go to the front door anymore, just goes straight to the kitchen 

I am not saying that anyone who comes to my door should be absolved of having to engage their common sense. I don't think in this case the postman was acting in a way that was provocative or intimidating to the dog - I believe in this case the postman was just doing his job and could not be expected to know the dog would bite (since why else would someone open the door to accept the postal service? Non-dog experts might reasonably imagine a dog is safe if their owner is allowing it to interact with people, usually).

OP, I hope your case (if such arises) is settled with as little fuss as possible. Now that you are aware your dog might get upset around the postman, I am sure you and your wife will take steps to prevent it from happening again. I think given the extent of the damage done (seemingly minor?) and your preventative measures, the Royal Mail will work with you so you don't get your postal service revoked entirely - which is what the article seems to suggest. Good luck!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I'm asking you because it's gobsmacking to me that you (or anyone) would blame the postman for being bitten while trying to fulfill the requirements of his job.
> 
> It wasn't like he broke in to the house to deliver a package. The owner was right there, holding the dog. One can also argue that the postman would think that if the owner allowed the dog to be at the door to greet him, the dog was safe. Why wouldn't he think it was okay to do something so benign as hand a package over to an owner who was reaching for it?!


I have never blamed the postman. Just suggesting that at least a proportion of the blame must be his for putting himself at risk. If it is a requirement of the job that he puts himself at risk then his employers, arguably, might be liable.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> In the case of a question... I have a question first. Does a scaffolder deliberately endanger themselves? A steeplejack? A tunneller? If the answer is yes then why should a postperson with the knowledge that dogs can and do bite be not afforded the same level of personal responsibility?


No, because that responsibility lies with the owner..

We drive cars. If I am seriously injured in a crash where the driver was drunk, would I be equally responsible because I was out driving a company car?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I have never blamed the postman. Just suggesting that at least a proportion of the blame must be his for putting himself at risk.


Those two sentences contradict each other.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Caribou said:


> Interesting that the CWU says 23,000 (in five years) when the Royal Mail says just under 3,000 (in a year http://www.royalmailgroup.com/customers/customer-commitment/preventing-dog-attacks). The maths doesn't compute but I presume the CWU is including all mail and parcel delivery firms and not only the Royal Mail.
> 
> Also interesting is that royal mail article putting almost all the onus on dog owners for preventing harm to postmen and women. Quite rightly, in my opinion. I decided to keep a dog, I am responsible for him, by law and by choice. Incidentally I don't believe my dog would ever seek to harm a person, he's more likely to lick someone to death than anything else and I trust him not to hurt people. However one never knows what the person's reaction might be, and also I live on a busy street and Max could potentially run out into the road. So, our habit is and always has been for him to get put in the kitchen when the doorbell goes or someone knocks. He doesn't even go to the front door anymore, just goes straight to the kitchen
> 
> ...


I don't think that the postman needed to know whether the dog would bite or not in order to take extreme caution. Simply knowing that a dog can bite should be enough I would think.


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Wtaf am I reading here??? Have we got anything stronger than popcorn??? I need to cuddle my Droat!


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Those two sentences contradict each other.


Apologies... should have read ... ' I don't blame the postman in entirety.'


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> My closing thoughts are this (and then I am done on this thread..lol)... Of course I totally believe in responsible pet ownership, of course I absolutely do not like to hear of anyone injured as a result of accident or negligence (whether via work or otherwise). When my lads were little I told them not to go near dogs (in particular dogs they don't know) because they may give them a nasty bite which will hurt. Fortunately they listened and did as they were told. Why then is it not possible for an adult post-person to heed the same warning and act in accordance. It isn't rocket science. Perhaps the compensation possibility outweighs someone's will to apply good old fashioned common sense? I don't know and neither am I an expert on such matters. I am not naive and I realise that not all cases are the same, perhaps that fact alone brings strict liability law into question? Not for me to say. But all in all this has been a really interesting thread.


Are you for real. If so I am very very scared.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

This is getting surreal now. 

People are responsible for themselves, and their own actions and interactions. The dog owner is responsible for their own actions in taking their dog to the door and allowing the situation to happen. A dog is a living being, you cannot compare it to a scaffolders equipment!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

komondor_owner said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting they're a special snowflake or need some special consideration. More that anyone who decides to pass a package over a barking dogs head who looks like this, without first checking with the owner, is a little bit daft.
> 
> And as the Royal Mail worker said in this thread "It's more likely the postie will get a rollicking from his manager for not asking for your dog to be removed from the door".


A dog that looks like this? They aren't my cup of tea, but I wouldn't necessarily find one of those intimidating to look than any other breed. 99% of people would have no clue what breed that is and thus would have no pre conceptions unlike traditionally more "scary" breeds like GSDs, Rotties etc.

Besides, if you own a more primitive livestock guarding breed, that is surely MORE of a reason to know your breed and adequately contain them. After all it's not as if you can go and pick up one of these dogs on Preloved on the same day as you can with common breeds. They are clearly a specialist breed needs wise and honestly, I would expect anyone taking on this sort of dog to have a full understanding of their breed traits.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Blitz said:


> Are you for real. If so I am very very scared.


Let me make myself clear... I do not sponsor irresponsible dog ownership, never have and never will. Back several pages I questioned what defined negligence. I hate to think of how awful the old lady next door will feel when Freddie chomps the postman's hand for the first time in 14 years. Is she really negligent? Or could it be something else?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Biffo said:


> This is getting surreal now.
> 
> People are responsible for themselves, and their own actions and interactions. The dog owner is responsible for their own actions in taking their dog to the door and allowing the situation to happen. A dog is a living being, you cannot compare it to a scaffolders equipment!


I wasn't. I was comparing jobs where people put 'themselves' at risk.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

So by @DogsandCatsShopCoUK logic if I get knocked down and killed tomorrow because someone fails to stop at a cross I am responsible because I should know care accidents can kill...


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

If a Police Officer will not enter a home where a dog could potentially harm them then why does a Postman? Odd.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> A brief story...
> 
> About 20 years ago a customer asked me to carry a bulk bag of pet food to their van for them as they couldn't carry it. I did so and when the customer opened the back door I was greeted by a German Shepherd which obediently stayed in the van and allowed me to place the pet food in the back. As I turned away the dog lunged and I moved out of the way, all was okay. However, as I walked away, the dog lept out of the van and bit me in a very nasty place. Was it me at fault for risking putting the food onto the van when I knew a German Shepherd was guarding it, was it the dog's fault for doing it's job or was it the owner's fault for allowing me to put myself at risk and for not restraining the dog? Remember... I went to the van and loaded it of my own volition.


So the owner of the van had trained and instructed the dog to guard the van. Then asked you to put something in it. I've seen an episode of Columbo like this. Was this your wife by any chance ?


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## komondor_owner (Jan 19, 2016)

If the goal here is to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I would suggest postmen should first ask the owner to remove the dog from the doorway before placing arms inside the property. It's not rocket science, it's simple risk assessment and precautionary measures to protect themselves.

If your goal is not to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I'm not sure what your goal is... Probably just to argue. In which case, carry on!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> If a Police Office will not enter a home where a dog could potentially harm them then why does a Postman? Odd.


The post man did not enter the home. He handed a package over to a person standing in the doorway.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> So by @DogsandCatsShopCoUK logic if I get knocked down and killed tomorrow because someone fails to stop at a cross I am responsible because I should know care accidents can kill...


Interesting you should say on a crossing. Someone, somewhere took responsibility to provide what was thought a safe place to cross. Perhaps a different analogy to any I have put forward.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> If the goal here is to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I would suggest postmen should first ask the owner to remove the dog from the doorway before placing arms inside the property. It's not rocket science, it's simple risk assessment and precautionary measures to protect themselves.
> 
> If your goal is not to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I'm not sure what your goal is... Probably just to argue. In which case, carry on!


OMG... I completely agree. Yes... the postman and the owner working together to reduce risk. Absolutely.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> The post man did not enter the home. He handed a package over to a person standing in the doorway.


Semantics.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

komondor_owner said:


> If the goal here is to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I would suggest postmen should first ask the owner to remove the dog from the doorway before placing arms inside the property. It's not rocket science, it's simple risk assessment and precautionary measures to protect themselves.
> 
> If your goal is not to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I'm not sure what your goal is... Probably just to argue. In which case, carry on!


If it is so simple to remove the dog from the door why can the owner not just do it ? Why does the owner need to be instructed by someone else to do it ?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

diefenbaker said:


> So the owner of the van had trained and instructed the dog to guard the van. Then asked you to put something in it. I've seen an episode of Columbo like this. Was this your wife by any chance ?


LMAO... If she was then you will never get to see her... lol.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

komondor_owner said:


> If the goal here is to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I would suggest postmen should first ask the owner to remove the dog from the doorway before placing arms inside the property. It's not rocket science, it's simple risk assessment and precautionary measures to protect themselves.
> 
> If your goal is not to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I'm not sure what your goal is... Probably just to argue. In which case, carry on!


The goal is for dog owners to realize it is their responsibility to prevent people being bitten by their dogs, not the responsibility of workmen to prevent themselves being bitten while innocently going about their business fulfilling the requirements of their job.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Semantics.


No, it's really not. There is a huge difference between a police officer entering a house not knowing what is going on or why their presence is required, versus a mail carrier leaving a package with a person at the door.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

diefenbaker said:


> If it is so simple to remove the dog from the door why can the owner not just do it ? Why does the owner need to be instructed by someone else to do it ?


True. But in the interests of personal safety why does the postman not insist on it or walk away with the parcel. Kind of odd don't you think?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> The goal is for dog owners to realize it is their responsibility to prevent people being bitten by their dogs, not the responsibility of workmen to prevent themselves being bitten while innocently going about their business fulfilling the requirements of their job.


Utopia eh?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

ouesi said:


> No, it's really not. There is a huge difference between a police officer entering a house not knowing what is going on or why their presence is required, versus a mail carrier leaving a package with a person at the door.


Intrusion is intrusion to a dog I guess? Be much nicer if the postman and owner could work together responsibly eh?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

komondor_owner said:


> If the goal here is to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I would suggest postmen should first ask the owner to remove the dog from the doorway before placing arms inside the property. It's not rocket science, it's simple risk assessment and precautionary measures to protect themselves.
> 
> If your goal is not to have less postmen bitten by dogs, then I'm not sure what your goal is... Probably just to argue. In which case, carry on!


It's not rocket science for an owner to be responsible and not have the dog at the door in the first place, given the dog is the size of a sheep and known for its guarding instinct.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> It's not rocket science for an owner to be responsible and not have the dog at the door in the first place, given the dog is the size of a sheep and known for its guarding instinct.


I agree, but given that people do not have to have an intelligence test to own a dog then perhaps it is a good idea that the postman acts in a personally responsible manner as a matter of duty.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> True. But in the interests of personal safety why does the postman not insist on it or walk away with the parcel. Kind of odd don't you think?


No.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

lorilu said:


> @DogsandCatsShopCoUK It's difficult to tell if you have joined this forum to spam for your "store" or to create arguments. Perhaps both. Though the dual purpose does seem contradictory. With your argumentative attitudes, no one is likely to want to purchase anything from you. I sure wouldn't. And I never shop at places where spamming is used to get customers.


What's more I suspect it would get delivered by a Bites for Cash postman. Where will it all end ?


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

diefenbaker said:


> No.


Okay


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> I agree, but given that people do not have to have an intelligence test to own a dog then perhaps it is a good idea that the postman acts in a personally responsible manner as a matter of duty.


And back to the point again of people getting certain breeds with no clue, breeders not caring who takes them more so when they think the onus of the general public safety doesn't lie with them as the owner but everyone round them who should seemingly know better. The onus is on the owner, the owner should be responsible and the DDA is starting to reflect that, god help us the law is in place because people expect the whole world and its uncle to be responsible for their dogs actions but never them. Hence responsible dog owner who do take full responsibility for their dogs get so up in arms when others point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves...


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> And back to the point again of people getting certain breeds with no clue, breeders not caring who takes them more so when they think the onus of the general public safety doesn't lie with them as the owner but everyone round them who should seemingly know better. The onus is on the owner, the owner should be responsible and the DDA is starting to reflect that, god help us the law is in place because people expect the whole world and its uncle to be responsible for their dogs actions but never them. Hence responsible dog owner who do take full responsibility for their dogs get so up in arms when others point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves...


The owner is, of course, responsible. Not disputed. But surprisingly lacking is the postman's responsibility to himself in this case.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

*once bitten, twice shy*
Once hurt, one is doubly cautious in the future, as in _He was two days late last time, so she's not hiring him again-once bitten, twice shy_. This seemingly old observation, presumably alluding to an animal biting someone, was first recorded in 1894.

1894!!! 122 Years ago! Wow... you would have thought someone would have learnt by now eh?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Anyway done with this thread, I again hope the OP gets the information from those qualified to give it.

This has nothing to do with the OP's post or the incident, but it has really highlighted why people are so worried about where primitive flock guardians end up. We have a few very responsible owners on here but lately I am certainly seeing the other side of the coin, and that's worry for the breeds involved...


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> Anyway done with this thread, I again hope the OP gets the information from those qualified to give it.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the OP's post or the incident, but it has really highlighted why people are so worried about where primitive flock guardians end up. We have a few very responsible owners on here but lately I am certainly seeing the other side of the coin, and that's worry for the breeds involved...


I have only seen responsible owners on here so far. But thanks for the heads up... I will keep an eye open.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> Let me make myself clear... I do not sponsor irresponsible dog ownership, never have and never will. Back several pages I questioned what defined negligence. I hate to think of how awful the old lady next door will feel when Freddie chomps the postman's hand for the first time in 14 years. Is she really negligent? Or could it be something else?


She is negligent - there could be a whole host of something else going on such as kids have been tormenting Freddie by poking things through the letter box (another reason why I don't even have one in my door) or Freddie has toothache or Freddie doesn't like the look of this particular postie's hat. Those are irrelevant as is the age of the owner (assuming they are over 18).



DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> If a Police Officer will not enter a home where a dog could potentially harm them then why does a Postman? Odd.


Not odd at all. Police officers enter homes under all sorts of different circumstances whereas the postie only comes to the door with no need to enter the property. Areas where the public are entitled to be (such as a youngster delivering newspapers) have to be safe whether that is from a dog, geese or dangerous obstructions.



DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> True. But in the interests of personal safety why does the postman not insist on it or walk away with the parcel. Kind of odd don't you think?


What is odd about it? Postman's job is to deliver post/parcels. Owner's job is to keep their dog under control and visitors safe. Simples really 



DogsandCatsShopCoUK said:


> The owner is, of course, responsible. Not disputed. But surprisingly lacking is the postman's responsibility to himself in this case.


I dare say he just wanted to deliver the package and get the hell out of there.


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## DogsandCatsShopCoUK (Apr 26, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> She is negligent - there could be a whole host of something else going on such as kids have been tormenting Freddie by poking things through the letter box (another reason why I don't even have one in my door) or Freddie has toothache or Freddie doesn't like the look of this particular postie's hat. Those are irrelevant as is the age of the owner (assuming they are over 18).
> 
> Not odd at all. Police officers enter homes under all sorts of different circumstances whereas the postie only comes to the door with no need to enter the property. Areas where the public are entitled to be (such as a youngster delivering newspapers) have to be safe whether that is from a dog, geese or dangerous obstructions.
> 
> ...


Yep.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

:Locktopic


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