# Could you prove you own your dogs?



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

There was a very interesting letter from Neil Ewart, the Chairman of Dog Theft Action, in "_Our Dogs_" (July 30th Edition)

He was saying that he receives lots of calls from distressed owners whose dogs have been stolen and then found, but the police will not return the dogs to them because they cannot prove ownership. Amazingly, the following do not constitute proof of ownership:


Pedigree papers
registration papers in your name
Microchipping in your name

  

He suggests the following measures will help you to prove ownership:


Always get a bill of sale when you buy a dog, or a letter detailing transfer of ownership if the dog is free
Take and keep regular photos of your dog, showing distinguishing marks
Keep receipts of food bills and vets bills
If you suspect your dog has been stolen ALWAYS report it to the police and INSIST it is reported as a crime (his capitals, not mine)


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2010)

Chipping is suppost to protect you in those events. :frown:

I never got a sale record with Scorcher however all I would have to do would be to say her name and she would show everyone whos dog she was.

Alaska and Kai have contracts from the breeders. I would have thought pedigree papers would class as proof but obviously not.

Wtf?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Would an appearance on national TV 3 years ago be proof? (It's on YouTube).


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Chipping is suppost to protect you in those events. :frown:
> 
> I never got a sale record with Scorcher however all I would have to do would be to say her name and she would show everyone whos dog she was.
> 
> ...


I know - I was as confused as you. These have, apparently, been taken from actual cases where the police have insisted that ownership could not be proved. Original owners of microchipped dogs have been contacted, but their dogs have not been returned until they could prove ownership.

Then when I stopped to think about it, I suppose that if someone steals a dog there is nothing stopping them getting false papers to prove ownership - although I can't quite see why receipts for buying dog food would prove it where microchipping papers don't


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Would an appearance on national TV 3 years ago be proof? (It's on YouTube).


heh heh - you'd think so, wouldn't you?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Thats worrying, we haven't got any proof of sale for Bob as he was taken by my OH as the previous owner no longer wanted him, I've got all our vet receipts though, he's chipped, he's got a vaccination card, surely that should be enough
The Shepherds are long term fosters but we have all their paperwork & vet bills although they aren't chipped


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Would a shelter keep a copy of sale of proof? I have lost Maya's receipt

Rusty was born from Maya so I have no receipt of sale. I did sign puppy contracts over to the to be owners of my pups (Daynna, I believe zebs would count but I never signed Bear over).

I will have to start keep track of receipts etc, although I do take allot of photos and can identify marks and scars on both my dogs. 

Thanks for that, that's interesting to know.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm wondering what you can do about dogs you breed yourself, if registration papers aren't enough proof? We have photos from Quinny from only a few days old and I would be able to tell which dog he was in a field of a thousand - but to PC Plod he would look just like all the other border collies :scared:


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm wondering what you can do about dogs you breed yourself, if registration papers aren't enough proof? We have photos from Quinny from only a few days old and I would be able to tell which dog he was in a field of a thousand - but to PC Plod he would look just like all the other border collies :scared:


We seem to think alike, I was worried about that with Rusty :lol:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> We seem to think alike, I was worried about that with Rusty :lol:


heh heh - you know what they say about great minds ......... or is it fools seldom differ


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I wonder if a pet passport would do.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Spellweaver said:


> There was a very interesting letter from Neil Ewart, the Chairman of Dog Theft Action, in "_Our Dogs_" (July 30th Edition)
> 
> He was saying that he receives lots of calls from distressed owners whose dogs have been stolen and then found, but the police will not return the dogs to them because they cannot prove ownership. Amazingly, the following do not constitute proof of ownership:
> 
> ...


so any fool can pop to the supermarket and buy a few tins of dog food and have a recipt , thought this is why we have our dogs microchipped :scared: well like to see them prove that bruce and leoti arnt mine , like to see them try walk out of the door with them both , also there are certain marks on my dogs that only i know about (no Val i wont show u at the next show lol lol )


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I have copy of contact with Zeb, but like Springerhusky said not for Bear 

They both are chipped to here, have both vacs cards, and vet records. Also the place we buy their food would vouch for us although we rarly get a reciept as its a shop with old tills that dont actually print what you have brought


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I wonder if a pet passport would do.


Again, you'd think so, wouldn't you? But then I'd have thought microchipping and registration papers in your name would have been enough proof


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leoti said:


> well like to see them prove that bruce and leoti arnt mine , like to see them try walk out of the door with them both , also there are certain marks on my dogs that only i know about (no Val i wont show u at the next show lol lol )


Heh heh - I'll bring my magnifying glass and my deerstalker :lol: Are you at WKC?

Know what you mean about bruce and leoti tho hun - I'd like to see any policeman watch Baggio twirl around with happiness at seeing me, put his paws on my shoulders, give me a big hug, and then wash my face with his tongue, and then try to say he wasn't my dog! :lol:


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

leoti said:


> so any fool can pop to the supermarket and buy a few tins of dog food and have a recipt , thought this is why we have our dogs microchipped :scared: well like to see them prove that bruce and leoti arnt mine , like to see them try walk out of the door with them both , also there are certain marks on my dogs that only i know about (no Val i wont show u at the next show lol lol )


i agree, what has buying dog food got to do with proveing you own the dog. surly with the microchip you have effectively written your name on your dog.

this is ridiculous.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I was told the only fool proof way of showing you own a dog is DNA testing.

The reason the registration papers for a dog are not proof of ownership is because with a lot of breeds the papers could describe any dog. EG our Zoe's papers say colour red breed irish setter sex bitch it could be any irish setter bitch in the country. I have 2 whippets whose papers both say fawn brindle the only difference is one is a dog the other a bitch


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Freyja said:


> I was told the only fool proof way of showing you own a dog is DNA testing.


I'd be ok with the bergies then because they've all been DNA tested - right enough their DNA will be registered under their breeder, but she would know that they are my dogs


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## lalauri (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm sorry, but that's a load of old tosh . What's the point in microchipping and pet papers if they're going to be deemed useless in the event you lose your pet?!  :confused1:


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I have pics of Dixie right from the first day I got her, loads of pics and even ones of the tiny scar she has on her face.
Dave I have pics right from the minute he was born! And he is Very distinguishable!!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lalauri said:


> I'm sorry, but that's a load of old tosh. What's the point in microchipping and pet papers if they're going to be deemed useless in the event you lose your pet?!  :confused1:


Well, it might sound like a load of old tosh to you - but as the Chairman of Dog Theft Action deemed it important enough to write to one of the most influential weekly dog newspapers to warn people about it, it seemed appropriate to alert people on here too.


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## lalauri (Jul 24, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Well, it might sound like a load of old tosh to you - but as the Chairman of Dog Theft Action deemed it important enough to write to one of the most influential weekly dog newspapers to warn people about it, it seemed appropriate to alert people on here too.


I'm not having a go at you, I think you may have misinterpreted my statement. All I meant was that it seemed it a bit odd, certainly not something I would've thought about, but definately something people should be aware of...


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

There was a story recently shared on he about a dog that had gone missing, and was found safe with a man that had bought the dog. As he had bought the dog in good faith, the police would not reunite the origional owner, despite them having the dog chipped. I'll see if I can find it


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lalauri said:


> I'm not having a go at you, I think you may have misinterpreted my statement. All I meant was that it seemed it a bit odd, certainly not something I would've thought about, but definately something people should be aware of...


Sorry hun, it seems I took your post the wrong way  Apologies!


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Here it is http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/100547-what.html


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

geese that really is worrying!

Sapose i am lucky with Zara as she is a sable and i haven't seen a dog that looks like her yet. 

i take loads of pics of her to.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Freyja said:


> I was told the only fool proof way of showing you own a dog is DNA testing.
> 
> The reason the registration papers for a dog are not proof of ownership is because with a lot of breeds the papers could describe any dog. EG our Zoe's papers say colour red breed irish setter sex bitch it could be any irish setter bitch in the country. I have 2 whippets whose papers both say fawn brindle the only difference is one is a dog the other a bitch


Mine are DNA profiled for identification purposes. I did it myself with the £15 kits from the KC (£25 now). However, in light of this, I can't see why it would be any more use than a microchip. The non-return of the dog seems more to be based on current ownership rather than proven ownership.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Spellweaver said:


> Heh heh - I'll bring my magnifying glass and my deerstalker :lol: Are you at WKC?
> 
> Know what you mean about bruce and leoti tho hun - I'd like to see any policeman watch Baggio twirl around with happiness at seeing me, put his paws on my shoulders, give me a big hug, and then wash my face with his tongue, and then try to say he wasn't my dog! :lol:


No not WKC going to Bournemouth , SKC , Darlington . Driffiled


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Surely a current Pet Passport would be proof enough. Not that mine has one!
What about tattoos?
If DNA is proof then that would only apply to a current owner. How scary it is to think that no matter what proof you have at home, whether it be puppy pics, chip, papers etc doesn't prove you actually own the dog _at this precise moment._

I can see where they're coming from - you might have given away or sold the dog yesterday and the new owners haven't updated the records yet. I don't think there's an answer to that one.


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> Surely a current Pet Passport would be proof enough. Not that mine has one!
> What about tattoos?
> If DNA is proof then that would only apply to a current owner. How scary it is to think that no matter what proof you have at home, whether it be puppy pics, chip, papers etc doesn't prove you actually own the dog _at this precise moment._
> 
> I can see where they're coming from - you might have given away or sold the dog yesterday and the new owners haven't updated the records yet. I don't think there's an answer to that one.


But pet passports are all linked to the microchip, which is why there is a certain order to the vaccine and blood test.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Here it is What!!!


That stories awful - what I don't understand though is that legally dogs are considered 'goods' or 'possessions'. If, for instance, a car was stolen and sold on, the person who had bought the stolen car, even in all innocence, would not have legal possession of it. Why is it then allowed with a dog? Unless they didn't have a receipt for it proving it was their puppy.

How sad.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Well I have a receipt, but it's over 4 years old and doesn't give any description of what my puppy looked like, nor the name & address of the breeder. Even if it did, what's to say I hadn't bought him off a bloke in the pub last night and made up my own receipt?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2010)

DNA .......... could be the way to go!
But my dogs would prove they own me! No one else would take em!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> DNA .......... could be the way to go!


Really? If they have the same attitude to DNA as they do to microchips, then having DNA means nothing as you could have sold the dog afterwards. DNA, like a chip, only proves one person owned that dog at time of sample/chipping. Not what's happened to it since.


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

So would rescue papers be ok? That is like a signing over of the dog into your name? I have all three of mine. But apart from thats just millions and millions of pictures.lol


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

I could prove both of mine..I think 

Dascha - I have her sales reciept and agreement papers from Battersea dogs home, a few food reciepts, microchip into, vet bills (LOTS), vet registration, pictures (LOTS).

Skye - Pedigree (although this may not count), sale reciept, pictures, microchip info, vet reciepts, vet registration, food bills.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But my dogs would prove they own me! No one else would take em!


So true DT! Dascha would be sulky and miserable with someone else (fact she is far to attached to me and her other owner). No one would take this shy thing away, she would just depress them after a few min (really she is happy just not with strangers by herself :lol: ).


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> There was a story recently shared on he about a dog that had gone missing, and was found safe with a man that had bought the dog. As he had bought the dog in good faith, the police would not reunite the origional owner, despite them having the dog chipped. I'll see if I can find it


So how come people who buy used cars in good faith, not knowing they are stolen, lose both the car and their money?

I have a rescue-centre receipt for Ziggy, and her agility record book as well as hundreds of photos. I didn't get a receipt for Kite, she's chipped and I have photos from the day I got her.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So how come people who buy used cars in good faith, not knowing they are stolen, lose both the car and their money?


That's exactly what I thought  particularly as dogs are considered goods/possessions in the eyes of the law.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I can do the distinguishing marks thing but none of the others :/


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> DNA .......... could be the way to go!
> But my dogs would prove they own me! *No one else would take em*!


snap, if anyone tried to take them they would end up bringingthem back after half an hour :lol::lol:

i have pictures, vets bills and are chipped but no recipts coz i didnt buy any of them...


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## Bex190 (Jun 30, 2009)

I have Alfie's paperwork from the rescue, his chip details, loads of photos and I could describe Alfie's distinguishing marks. He has several that you only notice if you know what you're looking for.

Otto would be much more difficult. I have loads of photos of him, vet bills, KC paperwork, chip details etc but to anyone that doesn't know the breed well one Vizsla looks a lot like another!


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> So how come people who buy used cars in good faith, not knowing they are stolen, lose both the car and their money?
> 
> I have a rescue-centre receipt for Ziggy, and her agility record book as well as hundreds of photos. I didn't get a receipt for Kite, she's chipped and I have photos from the day I got her.





rocco33 said:


> That's exactly what I thought  particularly as dogs are considered goods/possessions in the eyes of the law.


I would guess because cars, fridges and other material things have serial numbers and other codes stamped into may parts of the item, which would be distinguisable. I'm not entirely sure myself, but that's how I would inturpret. So If your dog was chipped, tattooed, and DNA, I suppose it would be returned then?


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## littledigger (Dec 29, 2009)

DNA is definately the best way to prove a dog is yours. The dogs DNA is registered against the registered keeper/owner just like a car. If you sell or transfer the dog, you have to update the DNA register, just like a car. We had Charlie put on the DNA register when she was a puppy. Also, DNA register could work the other way and prove your dog is NOT the dog the police are interested in. Best thing we ever did was putting her on the DNA register.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

We have our dogs chipped, but I'm sure that if they spent any amount of time away from us, for whatever reason, they'd make it obvious to anybody watching whose dogs they were when we were reunited.

I have never seen those tails and bums wiggle so much as when they see their mummy and daddy! :lol:


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

This is madness.

If you buy a car in good faith and it turns out to be a stolen car, the police take it off you and the original owner or the insurance company get it back. 

So why is a dog any different.


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## littledigger (Dec 29, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> This is madness.
> 
> If you buy a car in good faith and it turns out to be a stolen car, the police take it off you and the original owner or the insurance company get it back.
> 
> So why is a dog any different.


I think its because a car has a serial number attached to it, so it can be identified, but a dog that has no serial number can't be identified (unless the dog is on the DNA register).


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

We still have licensing here- annually. So you fill out paperwork every year that states names, addresses, descriptions, distinguishing marks etc... Over the course of the dogs life you would amass a certificate and a licence tag for each year you have the dog. Your local council also has this on record and you are required to notify them if the dog dies or you no longer own it/have rehomed. 

So I guess this paper trail over time would be useful over here if you were proving ownership.


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## littledigger (Dec 29, 2009)

jenniferx said:


> We still have licensing here- annually. So you fill out paperwork every year that states names, addresses, descriptions, distinguishing marks etc... Over the course of the dogs life you would amass a certificate and a licence tag for each year you have the dog. Your local council also has this on record and you are required to notify them if the dog dies or you no longer own it/have rehomed.
> 
> So I guess this paper trail over time would be useful over here if you were proving ownership.


Where are you?


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