# All quiet in the bedroom department...



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

My stud boy is now 2 (and 3 months) and still isn't mating the girls. I thought it was down to something I was doing, so had a breeder friend down today to observe what he was doing, and try and hold the girls for me. Here's what we found.

The girls are doing everything right, standing well, not rolling, lifting their bums as high as this breed ever does. (Persian)
The boy is missing the spot every time.
He is producing the goods as you can see where he's been on the girl.
He is generally far too high, but gets off if you try and encourage him lower.
He approaches the girl from the side rather than from the back.
He either sits down on her when too high, or stands on tippy toes when he moves lower.
He doesn't scruff her to mate, and tends to lose interest somewhat if someone else holds her.
It's almost like he is pleasuring himself enough by humping away at the wrong spot, then just gets off and goes for a wash.
Gets wary if he does manage to get close to the spot and the girl growls.

The frustrating thing is that he's managed to make them yowl and roll 3 or 4 times now during matings, but this has been over the last 3 months. He's been doing his messing around roughly for the last 10.

On the surface of it, he sounds like a youngster just learning, but given his age and the fact that he's been at this point without progress for 12 months, I'm concerned.

I guess the drive for him to find the sweet spot is non-existent if he's able to wriggle away and deliver, without having to deal with all the growling and slapping he'll get after mating, but I'm at a loss as to how to convince him otherwise. I really don't know what to do, and could do with some help.

Any ideas?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

What surprises me is that he has made them growl and roll, which is a sign he has hit target wonder if they is something going on with his fertility Carly 

My boy also doesn't hold his girls and plays the on off game and rides thier back, he gets it in the end.. 

He might just surprise you


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't know that there is, CM. My girls are very quick to roll. I can make them roll with no more than a tickle, and each time he's done it, it's been a one off with each call. I think he managed twice in one call, but his problem is that because he won't scruff and he gets fed up if I hold and won't carry on, the girls just shoot out from under him at the first feeling that he's on target. So although they growl, he's not been in there for long enough to actually produce anything to give me babies.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

These are experienced girls? Can you find one who will stand without being scruffed? If he won't scruff and won't mate if you do it for him then maybe he's not cut-out for life as a stud?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Girls cause girls to growl & roll here, a few neuter boys do to 

Doesn't seem uncommon for a boy to be wary of the growling girl his first few times, among the boys I know.
he may just be a slow developer, even fast maturing breeds can have the odd boy who takes his time, being 2-3 years rather than 4-9 months when they finally get it.

Could the face shape have anything to do with the inability to scruff? Or is it just your lad?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm sure the face shape makes it a little more difficult, SC, but he can get a good mouthful when he's in the mood, although he tends to bite them to make them stand, then just lets go again. He's constantly just too high up. He's been at one of my girls twice today, and is quite happily producing the goods, but is content to bonk her tail rather than her bum. On the plus side, he'll let me hold... ish... without getting off. I just haven't worked out how to get her tail up, and wonder if that problem is because he likes to get on from the side.

OS, they will all stand for mating. It's just when he penetrates, or gets close to it, that the girls shoot out from under him. Otherwise they're as good as gold. I've only got one experienced girl, but even another maiden of mine is doing everything right, she really is.

Have any of you had boys who have consistently produced, but on the wrong spot of the girl, who've then went on to sire?

Someone needs to invent cat Viagra! Please!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sounds more like he needs a feline Joy of Sex to show him what he should be doing...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Little bugger's got the best of both worlds! He gets his jollies and the full experience without any of the growling and slapping!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

You may need to trim the hair around the vulva to give him as clear a 'run' as possible. If he is consistently coming in their tails you may need to hold them out of the way. I've had to do this with birmans in the past and they are nowhere near as fluffy as persians  once he's actually mated a girl properly he'll hopefully start to get the idea.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I had a Ragdoll boy that seemed uninterested in the girls, and if they approached him he would run a mile, but once he got the gist of what to do he was all for it, I think its just the first time they are nervous


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Jaysee, he's been bonking their backs and tails for a good 10 months now.

TM, any chance you could explain how I can hold the tail out the way without getting in his way? not meaning to be obtuse at all, but I can't imagine how to do it without putting him off as he's such a stropper if he decides you're holding her in a way he doesn't like. Do you live anywhere close to me?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Carly, I understand your frustration, I really do, but I honestly think that your intervention isn't the right way forwards. I'll be the first to say that I have (and still do) 'help out' when the queen is willing but not, for example, paddling with her bottom quite high enough, or getting herself into corners, or flopping onto her side, making it difficult for the stud, that kind of thing. But for a stud who is not positioning himself correctly to be able to manage things, I think getting your hands in there is likely to just make things worse. 

In my experience (with a lot of studs over a lot of years) they really are best left to try and get on with it. I can truthfully tell you that even when I have gone against my own advice, out of sheer frustration and several months of apparent ineptitude of the stud, we've only had success when I'd finally had enough of trying to help and just left well alone.

Just this year, I was kindly loaned by a friend a three year old boy who had only ever managed to successfully mate one queen, on one occasion. I watched and fiddled around for weeks, trying to 'help' with girls going in and out of call, and him trying unsuccessfully to mate them. In the end, I could stand it no longer and just left each girl with him for a few weeks. He finally went home; I'd seen or heard no evidence of mating whatsoever; I'd not even seen him try. Both girls delivered kittens within the last 2.5 weeks


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Has Tango had an experienced queen who has had a litter or two previously? And are you doing supervised matings or letting them run with each other?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

carly87 said:


> TM, any chance you could explain how I can hold the tail out the way without getting in his way? not meaning to be obtuse at all, but I can't imagine how to do it without putting him off as he's such a stropper if he decides you're holding her in a way he doesn't like. Do you live anywhere close to me?


I just hold the fur on the tip of the queens tail in order to keep it out to the side. I find queens will often flick their tail from side to side, particularly if the male is a bit slow.

However as others have mentioned, sometimes too much intervention can cause more trouble than it's worth, particularly if he's a bit fussy.

I have to say that I've never found letting cats run together worked for me. The male just treats the female as a pal and will snuggle up with her in bed for a snooze or munch companionably from the bowl beside her but that's as far as the relationship goes  Of course all cats are different so you may have more success than I did with this method.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I've done both. The cats will run together if not in call anyway, as he goes completely fof his food if separated either into his own room in the house or in his pen in the garden. I did try initially keeping him separate from them totally, but as I say, it doesn't work. I tried letting him run with them from the beginning of a call, and keeping him separate until the girl is literally howling. I've tried only allowing him access until he's mated, or tried to, then removing him or the girl completely. The only time I noticed a real difference was when I took him away for a week with me to Holland. he got back and I had a girl in call, and that was the first time he managed to make one yelp, but he was with me all the time, so not off his food at all.

He's got an experienced girl who's had a litter before, yes.


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