# So the DUP are now controlling our future.



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

The UK govt is being held to ransom by a bunch of far right extremists. Everyday brings a new brexit nightmare . What a shambles :/

This >>
_Has anyone pointed out the irony that Theresa May would have given in on all three EU demands if it wasn't for a party representing minority of voters in territory that voted remain_?

*
Hard Brexiters have just discovered Britain is weaker than Ireland
*
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...it-talks-irish-border-lesson?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Please explain to me why should Northern Ireland remain in the Customs Union or single market when the rest of the UK has left it? Thersea May said the UK (that includes Northern Ireland) would be leaving the Customs Union and single market and no part of the UK would remain in the Customs Union or Single Market.

There is still time to get an agreement for phase 1 of the talks before the 14th December 2017.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> _
> Has anyone pointed out the irony that Theresa May would have given in on all three EU demands if it wasn't for a party representing minority of voters in territory that voted remain_?


Yes the irony is rather glaring. The DUP was still correct in in defending the constitutional position of NI though and rejecting May's concessions that ran roughshod over the Good Friday agreement. She knew the DUP would have to reject that deal and the EU knew it too. It's all smoke and mirrors.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> Please explain to me why should Northern Ireland remain in the Customs Union or single market when the rest of the UK has left it? Thersea May said the UK (that includes Northern Ireland) would be leaving the Customs Union and single market and no part of the UK would remain in the Customs Union or Single Market.
> 
> There is still time to get an agreement for phase 1 of the talks before the 14th December 2017.


The answer to that seems simple.
If May vowed to keep the entire UK in the single market and customs union, remembering the question of leaving them was not asked on the referendum paper, it's the only way to avoid a hard border with the Irish Republic.

This might sound odd but as much as I disagree with the DUP I give them credit for standing up to May the way they did.

Seeing their point of view they don't want to be treated differently from the rest of the UK. Why should May decide on their future without their say so? Ditto with Scotland.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> The answer to that seems simple.
> If May vowed to keep the entire UK in the single market and customs union, remembering the question of leaving them was not asked on the referendum paper, it's the only way to avoid a hard border with the Irish Republic.
> 
> This might sound odd but as much as I disagree with the DUP I give them credit for standing up to May the way they did.
> ...


That maybe a simple solution for those that voted remain but to be totally frank I think the way this will play out is that there is going to be no deal.

Here is something for you to stew on. Perhaps what happened yesterday was just a show, a performance. Here's why, Arelene Foster would have been consulted way in advance what Theresa May was going to offer yesterday to the EU and it was probably decided by TM and AF to do what happened so they can achieve a hard Brexit, a no deal scenario with the EU because of the hardline the Republic of Ireland's PM has taken with Northern Ireland's border with them. This may have been the plan with what happened yesterday.

Brexit isn't going to be stopped, it will happen in one of two ways, with a deal or without a deal. The deal scenario of Brexit is quickly fading away unless a miracle happens in the next few days.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexit isn't going to be stopped, it will happen in one of two ways, with a deal or without a deal.


I think we are aware of that.
The option to remain in the customs union and single market would be a good start. Look at countries like Norway (not in the Customs Union though) and Switzerland for example.
You don't have to be in the EU to be part of these.

I think the government better hurry up and find contractors to build the NI/EU border wall and enlarge or build Customs units to cope with the massively increased demand, remembering UK citizens will now be subjected to customs checks whether returning from a day trip to France or from a far away place. Something many who voted for Brexit didn't think would happen.

Surely the lack of "progress" in these areas would be a concern of the hardest of Brexiteers I would have thought.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I think the government better hurry up and find contractors to build the NI/EU border wall


You don't need a wall to have a border. You are thinking of the most extreme scenario there.



> Surely the lack of "progress" in these areas


You're wrong because there has been significant progress on all 3 areas the EU want dealing with in the last couple of weeks. The issue yesterday was because the EU want Northern Ireland (Not Scotland, Wales, England or Gibraltar) to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market and the DUP quite rightly said that Northern Ireland is leaving the EU with the rest of the UK and wants no special arrangements to remain in the EU.



> UK citizens will now be subjected to customs checks whether returning from a day trip to France or from a far away place.


So you'll have to show your passport coming back into the UK. You have to do this anyway when returning to the UK from abroad. EU Citizens from countries outside the UK will get checked more than UK citizens.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> So you'll have to show your passport coming back into the UK. You have to do this anyway when returning to the UK from abroad. EU Citizens from countries outside the UK will get checked more than UK citizens.


Yes of course UK citizens have their passports checked like everyone else on their return. They don't currently have to go through the Customs channels in addition to this when returning from other EU countries but will do post March 2019.

My point is what are the government going to do about that? Been very little progress so far so they'll be chaos in the airports if they don't get a move on.

Perhaps a wall between NI and the EU sounds a little extreme but the border will have to be staffed of course.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@stockwell I thought you weren't going to do any more Brexit threads 

No fighting, you two , or I'll make you sit on the naughty step .


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> No fighting, you two , or I'll make you sit on the naughty step .


No fighting here. 
Quite a friendly conversation


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> No fighting here.
> Quite a friendly conversation


 So far


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> So far


It will stay that way from me


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

The Ireland border is as much a issue that needs resolving for the EU as it does for the UK. In fact it’s a bigger issue for the EU as we already have a commitment to no hard border.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> The issue yesterday was because the EU want Northern Ireland (Not Scotland, Wales, England or Gibraltar) to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market and the DUP quite rightly said that Northern Ireland is leaving the EU with the rest of the UK and wants no special arrangements to remain in the EU.


What Ireland (not the EU, except that they back Ireland) want is simply to have no border on the island of Ireland, because then people with guns start emerging from the shadows.

How that is achieved is up to the UK to propose. and reasonably so since it is the UK who have chosen to leave the EU and cause the problem.

It would have been better had the Tory Brexiteers thought of a feasible solution before triggering Article 50. The blame for this mess lies entirely at their door.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> @stockwell I thought you weren't going to do any more Brexit threads


It's a mania with him. An obsession if you like. Some have an incurable fascination with fire, others stealing.

I have Dipsomania (this is nothing to do with holding a teletubby for ransom)

Stocky has Breximania.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Zaros  I think its catching !

I'm sat here with my popcorn waiting for the fireworks . 

Seriously though , Its just one big mess .


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

David Davis has told the Commons that when they said yesterday that there would be convergence of regulations between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they actually meant the whole of the UK and the EU.

Not sure why May didn't just say that to the DUP on the phone, unless - shock, horror - Davis was telling porkies.

"The presumption of the discussion was that everything we talked about applied to the whole United Kingdom. Alignment isn't harmonisation. It isn't having exactly the same rules. It is sometimes having mutually recognised rules, mutually recognised inspection - that is what we are aiming at."​
In other words, the EU sets the rules, and the UK takes a sovereign decision to abide by them.

Everybody happy.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Stocky has Breximania.


So does every UK media channel at the moment  It's a bit hard to ignore to be honest.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> I'm sat here with my popcorn waiting for the fireworks .


Enjoy the popcorn 


> Seriously though , Its just one big mess .


It's actually going quite well if you believe a hard brexit is inevitable.  If this does happen then one would question why it has taken so long.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

What happened yesterday proves that giving Parliament a veto what a mess it would make if all parties where given the opportunity to vote on the outcome of Brexit and say go back and get a better deal.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> So does every UK media channel at the moment  It's a bit hard to ignore to be honest.


So, are you saying the entire population of the UK is forced to watch TV then?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> So, are you saying the entire population of the UK is forced to watch TV then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the newspapers


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> And the newspapers


So, are you saying the newspapers are no better than television then?

Because if you are...

You should try wiping your 4r53 with a TV before arriving at that conclusion.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> So, are you saying the newspapers are no better than television then?


Well yeah. There's nothing worth watching on TV and the papers are full rubbish.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> So, are you saying the newspapers are no better than television then?
> 
> Because if you are...
> 
> You should try wiping your 4r53 with a TV before arriving at that conclusion.


I was thinking of going to somewhere in Scandinavia for a break from it all but I heard they intend to make a new TV drama about Brexit which will run 2 to 5 years. There really isn't anyway of ignoring Brexit


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> I was thinking of going to somewhere in Scandinavia for a break from it all but I heard they intend to make a new TV drama about Brexit which will run 2 to 5 years. There really isn't anyway of ignoring Brexit
> View attachment 335401


It will probably run for as long, if not longer than Coronation Street, mate.

And have just as many unbelievable characters.:Smuggrin


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Smarmy George going for the jugular again lol ( Imagine falling for that 'strong & stable slogan?:Hilarious)

*George Osborne*‏Verified [email protected]*George_Osborne* 6h6 hours ago

Our editorial @*EveningStandard*: the Brexit humiliation yesterday was a direct consequence of Mrs May's decisions

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...-the-folly-of-mrs-may-s-choices-a3710611.html


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well it turns out it was Ireland (the Republic that is) that stopped TM from informing AF of the proposed deal that would have caused the UK splitting up putting a border out in the Irish Sea and keeping Northern Ireland in the Customs Union and Single Market. AF has said she received no text from TM or the EU until yesterday morning. The DUP halted the process because Ireland and the EU knew that the DUP would never agree to splitting up the UK by keeping Northern Ireland in the Customs Union and Single Market.

Sly move by Ireland (the republic I mean) and the EU there one thinks. There is a strong possibility that no deal on phase 1 will now happen. Arelene Foster done a televised statement about what happened.

https://news.sky.com/story/foster-did-not-see-brexit-text-until-late-monday-morning-11157757

Good on AF and the DUP for sticking up for the UK and keeping the UK united.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> the Brexit humiliation yesterday was a direct consequence of Mrs May's decisions


More like the EU's underhanded tactics to try and split the UK up by putting a border in the Irish sea and keeping Northern Ireland in the Single Market and Customs Union. I am glad the DUP found out and stopped this. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and will remain part of the UK and will leave on the same terms as the rest of the UK.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

The whole thing has become a farce, TM should never have had the last election she has weakened her self, and did the leavers realise that we would be in this mess we. when they vote out. 

Not just as easy as just leaving is it.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> *Well it turns out it was Ireland (the Republic that is) that stopped TM from informing AF of the proposed deal *that would have caused the UK splitting up putting a border out in the Irish Sea and keeping Northern Ireland in the Customs Union and Single Market. AF has said she received no text from TM or the EU until yesterday morning. The DUP halted the process because Ireland and the EU knew that the DUP would never agree to splitting up the UK by keeping Northern Ireland in the Customs Union and Single Market.
> 
> Sly move by Ireland (the republic I mean) and the EU there one thinks. There is a strong possibility that no deal on phase 1 will now happen by next Friday let alone this Friday. Arelene Foster done a televised statement about what happened.
> 
> ...


Interesting! How did they do that?


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well yeah. There's nothing worth watching on TV and the papers are full rubbish.


Nothing worth watching on TV?
Dad's Army?
Fawlty Towers?
Porridge?
The Fresh Prince of Bel Air?
Family Guy (the earlier ones) ?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@FeelTheBern said:
Nothing worth watching on TV?
Dad's Army?
Fawlty Towers?
Porridge?
The Fresh Prince of Bel Air?
Family Guy (the earlier ones) ?

I replied:

You missed off:
Coronation Street
Walking Dead
Dc Legends of Tomorrow
Criminal Minds
Hardcore Pawn

Apart from these yes there is nothing to watch 

Although I don't watch:
Porridge or The Fresh Prince of Bel Air


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> Not just as easy as just leaving is it.


Oh yes leaving is easy.
No deal is quickly heading our way.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

stockwellcat. said:


> You missed off:
> Coronation Street
> Walking Dead
> Dc Legends of Tomorrow
> ...


Can't say I know any of those, apart from Coronation Street.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

FeelTheBern said:


> Can't say I know any of those, apart from Coronation Street.


Breaking Bad is another very good TV show which I am watching for the 5th time and Prison Break.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Please explain to me why should Northern Ireland remain in the Customs Union or single market when the rest of the UK has left it? Thersea May said the UK (that includes Northern Ireland) would be leaving the Customs Union and single market and no part of the UK would remain in the Customs Union or Single Market. There is still time to get an agreement for phase 1 of the talks before the 14th December 2017.


The "soft" border benefits Ireland and NI both alike, and as most people in NI voted against Brexit, that is also what the majority Northern Irish want. Almost no one wants to turn back the clock. (apart from the hard militia groups like Ulster boys and I´m sure the other side has their own boys checking where the guns were) Or maybe Ulster boys want another billion for their own party before they do something that actually benefits all in NI. And why is the situation in NI any different to that of Scotland, well, look at the map and you will see that NI is actually closer to Ireland than Britain. A bit like Gibraltar is closer to Spain than Britain.



KittenKong said:


> I think we are aware of that.
> The option to remain in the customs union and single market would be a good start. Look at countries like Norway (not in the Customs Union though) and Switzerland for example.
> You don't have to be in the EU to be part of these. I think the government better hurry up and find contractors to build the NI/EU border wall and enlarge or build Customs units to cope with the massively increased demand, remembering UK citizens will now be subjected to customs checks whether returning from a day trip to France or from a far away place. Something many who voted for Brexit didn't think would happen.
> 
> Surely the lack of "progress" in these areas would be a concern of the hardest of Brexiteers I would have thought.


Isn´t it funny and sad at the same time that just a few weeks ago many Brexiteers on this forum said that Norwegian way will be good for UK too. Now that May and Ulster boys are closing that option, still not a single critical comment about how things are getting from bad to worse and all the promised benefits have slipped so far away that no one remembers even how Brexit was supposed to be good for you. Human mind is a mystery indeed.



stockwellcat. said:


> You don't need a wall to have a border. You are thinking of the most extreme scenario there. You're wrong because there has been significant progress on all 3 areas the EU want dealing with in the last couple of weeks. The issue yesterday was because the EU want Northern Ireland (Not Scotland, Wales, England or Gibraltar) to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market and the DUP quite rightly said that Northern Ireland is leaving the EU with the rest of the UK and wants no special arrangements to remain in the EU. So you'll have to show your passport coming back into the UK. You have to do this anyway when returning to the UK from abroad. EU Citizens from countries outside the UK will get checked more than UK citizens.


Err, there as been progress only in the fact that May agreed to pay around 50 billion as the "divorce bill" , and now the negotiations are almost in a standstill, as your Ulster boys decided they don´t like to do business with the Irish, despite that fact that it would have been very beneficial for the whole area. How selfish can they be? Or maybe this is a blackmail and they want even more money. Again, how selfish can they be?

For us it looks like May has no power and only those, who don´t want to do business with EU countries are taken over or those, who want to avoid EU legislation concerning tax evasion, consumer rights etc. This is really bad news for the ordinary people and businesses and you need a miracle to get out of this.



Dr Pepper said:


> The Ireland border is as much a issue that needs resolving for the EU as it does for the UK. In fact it's a bigger issue for the EU as we already have a commitment to no hard border.


Now I´m lost. Do you mean that you have a commitment to *no* hard border? But now the opposite is happening and you are getting hard borders. Another thing: we have 27 countries in EU we do business with soft borders + all the contracts EU has negotiated with WTO; China etc You will have no deals with anyone, until you start making some deals. WTO is naturally there so you´ll be having the same, lucrative deals like Russia, Saudis etc. But I ask you: do you really think a hard border is a good thing for a business?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> The Ireland border is as much a issue that needs resolving for the EU as it does for the UK. In fact it's a bigger issue for the EU as we already have a commitment to no hard border.


That's easy then. No brexit. UK fulfilled it's commitment. Anything else is failing that commitment isn't it or do you have a workable alternative. Ball is in the UK's court to fulfill it's obligation.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

So does anyone have any workable suggestion as to how NI can diverge from the market and customs regulations in force in the south, and still not need any sort of border between the two?

(If so May would like to hear from you!)


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

A friend of mine suggested a Status Quo Clause where any standing arrangements are left alone within the rules. Which means the Irish border can be left as is without problems. Similar to what places like Andorra and Monaco have with France and Spain respectively.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)




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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> . I am glad the DUP found out and stopped this. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and will remain part of the UK and will leave on the same terms as the rest of the UK.


Actually so am I as much as I might disagree with the DUP. It's what the DUP passionately believe in. What made May think she had the right to speak on behalf of her DUP friends to start with?

If TM and co won't back down on the UK's membership of the SM and CU they'll just have to accept the return of a hard border. The UK is leaving the EU, the Republic of Ireland is not. They should get over it and arrange erecting the border ASAP.

I would say the same for Scotland. It was encouraging to see Ruth Davidson speak some sense by appearing to suggest the entire UK remains in the SM to avoid any borders.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> That's easy then. No brexit. UK fulfilled it's commitment. Anything else is failing that commitment isn't it or do you have a workable alternative. Ball is in the UK's court to fulfill it's obligation.


Easy, we play the EU card and pass the buck. We go for hard Brexit and if UK (inc N.I) and Ireland agree on no borders, as it is now, then it's fully for the EU to sort out if they wish.

You need to realise the EU are equally involved in this issue, probably more so, and need to participate in resolving it before a hard Brexit becomes a reality, if that's what they want.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> You need to realise the EU are equally involved in this issue, probably more so, and need to participate in resolving it before a hard Brexit becomes a reality, if that's what they want.


Thought a hard Brexit is what you and other hardened Brexiteers wanted.

You seem to forget the UK is not being expelled from the EU, they chose to leave voluntarily.

It's only natural they'll be on the side of an EU member, the ROI in this instance.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Easy, we play the EU card and pass the buck. We go for hard Brexit and if UK (inc N.I) and Ireland agree on no borders, as it is now, then it's fully for the EU to sort out if they wish.
> 
> You need to realise the EU are equally involved in this issue, probably more so, and need to participate in resolving it before a hard Brexit becomes a reality, if that's what they want.


EU never made a commitment. You previously stated the UK did. Remind me again why aren't the UK fulfiling their commitment? EU has also stated two possible solutions. Move border to mainland or abandon brexit. Both feasible and are solutions although not to everyone tastes.

Additional, not directly about Ireland/DUP - Anyone else find it sadly ironic that leavers consistantly stated how it's time we took control of our borders which is why we needed to leave. A high proportion of the leave vote was based on illegal immigrants and the need to control borders. Here we are arguing with the EU that it's essential there is no control of a border.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> So does every UK media channel at the moment  It's a bit hard to ignore to be honest.


I'm managing. Sort of ostrich head in the sand type of ignoring :Shamefullyembarrased:Shamefullyembarrased


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> So does anyone have any workable suggestion as to how NI can diverge from the market and customs regulations in force in the south, and still not need any sort of border between the two?
> 
> (If so May would like to hear from you!)


Trade deal.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> Trade deal.


Borders, as the leave campaign was keen to point out, involves far more than trade. Unless of course you are talking about tying ourselves into the EU regulations. That's the same as EEA membership which again is unacceptable remember. Brexit means brexit. Wait, you want the perks of membership of the EU without membership. Everyone was told before the referendum that that was not an option.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> So does anyone have any workable suggestion as to how NI can diverge from the market and customs regulations in force in the south, and still not need any sort of border between the two?
> 
> (If so May would like to hear from you!)


I very much doubt the answer will be found on a Pet forum......


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Seems I'm not the only one who agrees with Ed.

_







 *Ed Miliband*‏Verified [email protected]*Ed_Miliband*
What an absolutely ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, 
couldn't run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers there are running the government
at the most critical time in a generation for the country.

*38,432* Retweets

*96,750* Likes
 _


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Seems I'm not the only one who agrees with Ed.
> 
> _
> 
> ...


And you reckon Corbyn would be able to do a better job? Doubt it very much.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> So does anyone have any workable suggestion as to how NI can diverge from the market and customs regulations in force in the south, and still not need any sort of border between the two?
> 
> (If so May would like to hear from you!)


Send a letter to Downing Street. Although they won't be in a hurry in replying, all letters get a reply. Saying that the reply won't come from Mrs May personally. 

I doubt Mrs May will come on PF to answer you


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> And you reckon Corbyn would be able to do a better job? Doubt it very much.


I sure do. A chimpanzee could do a better job:Hilarious


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

We are so screwed.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I sure do. A chimpanzee could do a better job:Hilarious


So Corbyn is a chimpanzee now :Hilarious



noushka05 said:


> We are so screwed.


He is a joke.
Stopped listening to him a long time ago.
He looks like he is going to cry all the time IMHO.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> So Corbyn is a chimpanzee now :Hilarious
> 
> You have to remember the Labour MP's where quick enough to launch attacks on Corbyn just recently and have tried to oust him.
> 
> ...


No wonder you cant see what a complete & utter disaster brexit is - when you just see what you want to see  I clearly didn't say that.

You really think people who support big money & corporate power have our best interests at heart? You really need to check out the voting histories & the language used by those you have put your faith in.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Sorry don't know what happened there. Half my sentence disappered.



noushka05 said:


> Can you


Yes.
We wouldn't be in the EU right now. We'd be out and wouldn't have paid a penny. I wouldn't have wasted 18 months and headaches.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*CIaran McMenamin*‏Verified [email protected]*CiaranMcMenamin* Dec 4

_To my English friends who are extremely confused tonight. Yes. The DUP from Northrrn Ireland have blocked a deal that was better for Northern Ireland.
To make themsleves feel more British. Even though everyone in Britain knows they are Irish_


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> No wonder you cant see what a complete & utter disaster brexit is - when you just see what you want to see  I clearly didn't say that.
> 
> You really think people who support big money & corporate power have our best interests at heart? You really need to check out the voting histories & the language used by those you have put your faith in.


I have no faith in anyone at the moment until Brexit is a done deal and is acceptable.

Remember May voted remain so it looks as if it is going to be a deal that somehow keeps us in the EU via the back door. This was how it came across on Monday. Good on AF for stopping TM.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> We wouldn't be in the EU right now. We'd be out and wouldn't have paid a penny. I wouldn't have wasted 18 months and headaches.


Yet this is what you voted for. You didn't vote for advantages of leaving as you have yet to provide any which stand up to the application of reality. What did you imagine would happen in fantasyland brexitville? Some in power want to minimise the damage if possible.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> *CIaran McMenamin*‏Verified [email protected]*CiaranMcMenamin* Dec 4
> 
> _To my English friends who are extremely confused tonight. Yes. The DUP from Northrrn Ireland have blocked a deal that was better for Northern Ireland.
> To make themsleves feel more British. Even though everyone in Britain knows they are Irish_


Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, there MP's sit in Westminster and vote on UK issues.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Yet this is what you voted for. You didn't vote for advantages of leaving as you have yet to provide any





> What did you imagine would happen in fantasyland brexitville?


I'll ignore this as it could be construed as insulting.

Brexit is still happening @Goblin it isn't being reversed as you always hoped.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> I have no faith in anyone at the moment until Brexit is a done deal and is acceptable.
> 
> Remember May voted remain so it looks as if it is going to be a deal that somehow keeps us in the EU via the back door. This was how it came across on Monday. Good on AF for stopping TM.


May stands for nothing but herself - thats why Cameron called the 'submarine' because she never really committed to the remain campaign. She kept a low profile and got top job. Now because she is weak and wobbly she is being pushed around by extremists in her own party, the loony DUP & non dom media barons.

The DUP do not represent the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland - they voted remain. For very good reasons which we all debated on that closed thread


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May stands for nothing but herself - thats why Cameron called the 'submarine' because she never really committed to the remain campaign. She kept a low profile and got top job. Now because she is weak and wobbly she is being pushed around by extremists in her own party, the loony DUP & non dom media barons.
> 
> The DUP do not represent the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland - they voted remain. For very good reasons which we all debated on that closed thread


But the United Kingdom as a whole voted leave. You can't now say this area voted remain etc as the MP's from all across the UK in Parliament voted in favour of all the bills so far relating to Brexit.

The DUP are the strongest party in Northern Ireland and thus represent the Northern Irish people as they got the most votes (out of the 2 parties that cannot form a power sharing assembly) in there election. Northern Ireland is in the UK, there MP's sit in the UK's Parliament and therefore should not have a separate deal on leaving the EU to appease LV.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> More like the EU's underhanded tactics to try and split the UK up by putting a border in the Irish sea and keeping Northern Ireland in the Single Market and Customs Union. I am glad the DUP found out and stopped this. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and will remain part of the UK and will leave on the same terms as the rest of the UK.


Oh that's right its the EUs fault, not brexiters who demanded 'control of our borders':Hilarious


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

I don’t understand why anyone is surprised at the “apparent” chaos in the negotiations. It’s simply the usual toing and froing of any negotiation. Anyone who has ever negotiated a commercial lease will tell you something that, on the face of it, is simple and should only take a week to complete will actually take more in the region of three months with numerous points in the process where it looks like it might collapse.

So I shall fret not at this point. Shame it’s not being conducted behind closed doors really, then some people might not be on the verge of a nervous breakdown over it.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> Trade deal.





stockwellcat. said:


> Send a letter to Downing Street.


I think we may need more detail than suggested in those excellent suggestions.

If we are diverging from the standards and regulations of the single market, it is difficult to see how a trade deal could be fashioned such that no border was required. What we would be seeking is an agreement that we can ignore all the standards and regulations that apply to the rest of the EU and still have free movement of goods into the single market.

Unless, of course, we agree to keep all our rules the same as theirs, in which case, have we really 'taken back control'?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Some people in this very thread have lauded the DUP sticking to their red line that NI should be treated no differently from the rest of the UK.

Should NI therefore not have control of their border, with specific reference to all the EU nationals who are currently free to drive, walk or skip across it with no restrictions at all? Or is the rest of the UK still going to allow free movement of people?

And if NI is treated differently on that matter, whither the red line?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> Some people in this very thread have lauded the DUP sticking to their red line that NI should be treated no differently from the rest of the UK.
> 
> Should NI therefore not have control of their border, with specific reference to all the EU nationals who are currently free to drive, walk or skip across it with no restrictions at all? Or is the rest of the UK still going to allow free movement of people?
> 
> And if NI is treated differently on that matter, whither the red line?


NI don't have control of their border as they are a devolved area of the United Kingdom. Overall Westminster governs the border of Northern Ireland but has to consult the NI Power Sharing Assembly on any changes relating to the border, whoops, there is no active power-sharing assembly in NI at the moment only a leading party - the DUP. The mistake May made was she did not run the deal past the DUP (the leading party in NI) hence why it got blocked because she tried to do a back hander with LV/the Republic of Ireland. To right it should have been blocked IMHO. NI is a member of the United Kingdom and should leave on the same terms as the rest of the UK. The DUP where praised by Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar and MP's from The House of Commons for blocking the deal as the DUP did not agree to it before TM tried to force it through.

Why should NI get a separate deal when they are a member of the United Kingdom? The NI don't want a border poll either so why force such a change to satisfy LV and the Republic of Ireland? NI don't want to rejoin the Republic and have a united Ireland like the dream of LV has. So who is trying to make a power grab here? The Republic of Ireland/EU by forcing NI to remain in the EU via the Single Market and Customs Union? It's not Westminster.

Regarding your other questions we will see what the United Kingdom Government manage to strike as a deal with the EU what the outcome will be. At this stage we do not know so to suggest otherwise is speculation.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I'll ignore this as it could be construed as insulting.
> 
> Brexit is still happening @Goblin it isn't being reversed as you always hoped.


Insulting.. simple facts. Mutually exclusive promises. Maybe you can explain how you have a "soft border" yet actively "control" the border?

As for brexit not being reversed. It's still on the table and will be until the end. Notice you still provide no advantages to leaving based on reality.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> NI don't have control of their border as they are a devolved area of the United Kingdom. Overall Westminster governs the border of Northern Ireland but has to consult the NI Power Sharing Assembly on any changes relating to the border, whoops, there is no active power-sharing assembly in NI at the moment only a leading party - the DUP. The mistake May made was she did not run the deal past the DUP (the leading party in NI) hence why it got blocked because she tried to do a back hander with LV/the Republic of Ireland. To right it should have been blocked IMHO. NI is a member of the United Kingdom and should leave on the same terms as the rest of the UK. The DUP where praised by Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar and MP's from The House of Commons for blocking the deal as the DUP did not agree to it before TM tried to force it through.
> 
> Why should NI get a separate deal when they are a member of the United Kingdom? The NI don't want a border poll either so why force such a change to satisfy LV and the Republic of Ireland? NI don't want to rejoin the Republic and have a united Ireland like the dream of LV has. So who is trying to make a power grab here? The Republic of Ireland/EU by forcing NI to remain in the EU via the Single Market and Customs Union? It's not Westminster.
> 
> Regarding your other questions we will see what the United Kingdom Government manage to strike as a deal with the EU what the outcome will be. At this stage we do not know so to suggest otherwise is speculation.


So if Westminster governs the border of NI, how come they are prepared to allow free movement across that border for EU citizens, while not allowing it for the rest of the UK? Not exactly taking back control, is it.

And, an aside, if the DUP are so keen not to be any different from the rest of the UK, how come their abortion and gay marriage laws are different from the rest of the UK? Almost sounds like this "Treated No Different from the Rest of the UK" only applies when it suits the DUP.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Easy, we play the EU card and pass the buck. We go for hard Brexit and if UK (inc N.I) and Ireland agree on no borders, as it is now, then it's fully for the EU to sort out if they wish. You need to realise the EU are equally involved in this issue, probably more so, and need to participate in resolving it before a hard Brexit becomes a reality, if that's what they want.


Your messages are truly confusing. Err, you don´t have EU card, your threw it away with Brexit. EU and Ireland both suggested to soft borders, May agreed to that, but DUP said no and May had to change her mind. So only DUP wanted hard border, but as they have May By the balls, thet get want they want. So the leader of the negotiaton is DUP.

EU is equally involved? Err, no, as we continue to have open borders in EU, and UK won´t be part of that. Probably more so? What does that mean? Brexit? EU? NI? Very difficult to understand what you mean By that. Maybe you could explain?



Dr Pepper said:


> I don't understand why anyone is surprised at the "apparent" chaos in the negotiations. It's simply the usual toing and froing of any negotiation. Anyone who has ever negotiated a commercial lease will tell you something that, on the face of it, is simple and should only take a week to complete will actually take more in the region of three months with numerous points in the process where it looks like it might collapse. So I shall fret not at this point. Shame it's not being conducted behind closed doors really, then some people might not be on the verge of a nervous breakdown over it.


Err, this is not the usual toing and foing of any negotiation, as normally both sides do their homework and actually know what they want, what are the goals and what are the issues you can bargain with. Also normally the teams work for the same goal, and aim at achieving something that benefits both sides. Trust is also a word people like to use in good negotiatons. At the moment UK doesn´t have a reliable negotiation partner, no goals apart from no deal, no benefits it aims to gain. If any usual negotiation would be dealt this badly, the Company would either change the team, stop the negotiations or go bust.

I´m sure May&co would like nothing better that keep this all behind closed doors, but in EU it is an open door policy. We have stated the conditions from the start openly and they haven´t changed.. And usually in politics that is a good thing, at least in democracies.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Sometimes satire says it best....

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/20...land-into-the-sea-may-casually-tells-cabinet/


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MrsZee said:


> EU and Ireland both suggested to soft borders, May agreed to that, but DUP said no and May had to change her mind. *So only DUP wanted hard border *...


Nobody wants a hard border, including the DUP.

The problem is that the UK govt. want to leave the single market & customs union, which is obviously incompatible with having no border ...

... Unless the rules (regulations / standards) on both sides of the border are the same, so that no border is needed.

But the UK govt. want to change the rules so that we can have trade deals with the US, etc.

So, only by having NI follow different rules from the rest of the UK (EU ones) could the govt get its own rules *AND *no border in Ireland.

*BUT* the DUP demand the same rules as the rest of the UK (on trade, if not other things), so they are stopping the UK govt implementing the only solution that would work.

Meanwhile, the (southern) Irish are insisting that the wording of the document being negotiated must include a promise that whatever solution is reached, or not reached, there will be no hard border in Ireland. (Partly because they want to see a united Ireland, (and a hard border would move that further away than now) and partly because people would start blowing up other people again.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Nobody wants a hard border, including the DUP.
> 
> The problem is that the UK govt. want to leave the single market & customs union, which is obviously incompatible with having no border ...... Unless the rules (regulations / standards) on both sides of the border are the same, so that no border is needed. But the UK govt. want to change the rules so that we can have trade deals with the US, etc.
> 
> ...


IMO it looks by the way the negotiatons are going that there will be hard borders everywhere btw UK and EU, no trade deals when you leave, and for DUP that is ok for NI too, as the main thing for them is to have the same deal (i.e. not a better deal) than the rest of UK. That is whay I thoght that that is what DUP really wants, a hard border to cut down the free movement btw Ireland and NI, no matter what.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MrsZee said:


> IMO it looks by the way the negotiatons are going that there will be hard borders everywhere btw UK and EU, no trade deals when you leave, and for DUP that is ok for NI too, as the main thing for them is to have the same deal (i.e. not a better deal) than the rest of UK. That is whay I thoght that that is what DUP really wants, a hard border to cut down the free movement btw Ireland and NI, no matter what.


That's why it's a EU problem more than UK. If we hard Brexit but UK, N.I and Ireland all agree to leave no border it absolutely falls to the EU to come up with a alternative or install a hard border their side.

The lack of a border between Ireland and N.I is about far more than trade deals. And if the EU imposed a hard border against Ireland's will I wonder if they wouldn't be the next to leave?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MrsZee said:


> Your messages are truly confusing. Err, you don´t have EU card, your threw it away with Brexit. EU and Ireland both suggested to soft borders, May agreed to that, but DUP said no and May had to change her mind. So only DUP wanted hard border, but as they have May By the balls, thet get want they want. So the leader of the negotiaton is DUP.
> 
> EU is equally involved? Err, no, as we continue to have open borders in EU, and UK won´t be part of that.  Probably more so? What does that mean? Brexit? EU? NI? Very difficult to understand what you mean By that. Maybe you could explain?
> 
> ...


Nope. I used commercial leases as an example as they are similar in style to Brexit. At the outset, without exception, the lease will be fully in the Landlords favour with not one concession to the tenant (much like the EU have started out the Brexit negotiations, all for the EU nothing to the UK). It's absolutely not about reaching a agreement that benefits both parties but getting the best possible deal for yourself.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> I wonder if they wouldn't be the next to leave?


Well that is the £50billion question. Will the Republic of Ireland follow the UK out of the EU if a hard border is made between NI and the Republic?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Ireland will be as affected by Brexit as UK, but they had no vote.
They have it now.
Gibraltar is in the same boat: Hard border will be the end of our community, the end of our economy.
From 38 k it will drop to maybe 8?
Where 30 k homeless, jobless Brits will go? What will happen to our animals? Thousands of them?
Maybe dear Leavers can tell me?
What our family and others will live on?
@kimthecat ...hope that sofa is still on...

What for some here is just mere debate for others coup mean homelessness and loss of livehood.
For others: Fun and games.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

It seems that the Irish Border wasn't the only problem encountered on Monday. It seems over dinner Junker mentioned the EU wants the ECJ to be interpreting EU law in the UK until 2030. The UK's position on this is a maximum of 5 years.

https://news.sky.com/story/ecj-role-at-heart-of-may-juncker-lunch-disagreement-11158741

This is heading in one direction IMO.

News at 15:35
*LIVE: Ireland playing 'a dangerous game' - DUP*

DUP tackle Irish government

The Democratic Unionist Party's Westminster leader Nigel Dodds has accused the Irish government of playing a "dangerous game" on Brexit.

He claims a delayed border deal will drive up chances of a 'no deal' divorce.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-david-davis-quizzed-on-secret-brexit-studies-11158557


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's why it's a EU problem more than UK. If we hard Brexit but UK, N.I and Ireland all agree to leave no border it absolutely falls to the EU to come up with a alternative or install a hard border their side.
> 
> The lack of a border between Ireland and N.I is about far more than trade deals. And if the EU imposed a hard border against Ireland's will I wonder if they wouldn't be the next to leave?


Err, you are aware that UK will pay for it´s border control, not EU. EU isn´t imposing hard borders againts Ireland will, it has clearly stated that whatever decision Ireland makes, that is ok with EU and EU will back Ireland. All but DUP wanted to have soft border, but as DUP decides the Brexit terms, that´s it. DUP said only of Scotland and Wales will follow (which they wanted too, but can´t because May won´t allow that as with that Brexit means nothing). Unfortunately they can´t blackmail May in the same way, so the results is a hard border UK will pay for. And with that decision NI will suffer most. Ireland will never leave EU as EU has been so good for them. Or do you really think Ireland trusts Britain to look after their interest?

Your logic just doesn´t add up, I´m afraid.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's why it's a EU problem more than UK. If we hard Brexit but UK, N.I and Ireland all agree to leave no border it absolutely falls to the EU to come up with a alternative or install a hard border their side.
> 
> The lack of a border between Ireland and N.I is about far more than trade deals. And if the EU imposed a hard border against Ireland's will I wonder if they wouldn't be the next to leave?


 I can't believe the UK would be so irresponsible as to act in the way you suggest.

In effect they would be trying to leave the EU, stop paying fees, ignoring ECJ jurisdiction, but trying to continue trading across the border as though they were still members of the single market and customs union. They would be forcing a hard border and would rightly become an international pariah.

If they tried pushing it that way there is more chance of Ireland becoming united than of Eire leaving the EU. Especially since the NI population voted to Remain in the EU. The DUP speak only for a minority of the Northern Irish people; not that democracy has had much of a say in this sorry business.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Or do you really think Ireland trusts Britain to look after their interest?


Ireland followed the UK into joining EEC and then into the EU because we are there closest trading partner. Over 72% trade goes on between UK and Ireland. So yes I do think they may follow the UK out of the EU as we are there closest trading partner not the EU. Where is Ireland closer to as a country?

Since the UK referendum result and activating of article 50 there has been whispers within the Ireland Government about holding there own referendum. I wonder if they will?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> If they tried pushing it that way there is more chance of Ireland becoming united than of Eire leaving the EU.


And who will push that? The border poll has to be held in NI not the Republic. I can tell you for a fact there is no appetite for one. LV (PM in Republic of Ireland) is the only person going on about reuniting Ireland, which is a wild dream of his.

The Northern Irish voted DUP in, in there recent elections on the 8th June 2017 with Sinn Fein coming second so yes the DUP do represent the Northern Irish.

DUP won 36% of election votes
Sinn Fein won 29.4% of election votes.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MrsZee said:


> Err, you are aware that UK will pay for it´s border control, not EU. EU isn´t imposing hard borders againts Ireland will, it has clearly stated that whatever decision Ireland makes, that is ok with EU and EU will back Ireland. All but DUP wanted to have soft border, but as DUP decides the Brexit terms, that´s it. DUP said only of Scotland and Wales will follow (which they wanted too, but can´t because May won´t allow that as with that Brexit means nothing). Unfortunately they can´t blackmail May in the same way, so the results is a hard border UK will pay for. And with that decision NI will suffer most. Ireland will never leave EU as EU has been so good for them. Or do you really think Ireland trusts Britain to look after their interest?
> 
> Your logic just doesn´t add up, I´m afraid.


To be fair I don't think you actually understand the whole N.I/Ireland situation. I also never said Ireland would join the UK, I said they might leave the EU.

As for a hard border why would the UK pay for it if the UK, N.I and Ireland didn't want one?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Ireland followed the UK into joining EEC and then into the EU because we are there closest trading partner. Over 72% trade goes on between UK and Ireland. So yes I do think they may follow the UK out of the EU as we are there closest trading partner not the EU. Where is Ireland closer to as a country?
> 
> Since the UK referendum result and activating of article 50 there has been whispers within the Ireland Government about holding there own referendum. I wonder if they will?


Things can change of course, but Leo Varadkar said the EU was "a common European home that we helped to build and we're going to stay where we belong, at the heart of it".

I wonder if they would want to be in a situation again where they are dominated by the UK with no other friends.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> And who will push that? The border poll has to be held in NI not the Republic. I can tell you for a fact there is no appetite for one. LV (PM in Republic of Ireland) is the only person going on about reuniting Ireland, which is a wild dream of his.
> 
> The Northern Irish voted DUP in, in there recent elections on the 8th June 2017 with Sinn Fein coming second so yes the DUP do represent the Northern Irish.
> 
> ...


Remain 56% Leave 44%

If the choice was: unite Ireland & stay in the EU with no border v. stay in the UK, leave the EU, get a hard border and everything that implies I wouldn't bet on the result.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's why it's a EU problem more than UK. If we hard Brexit but UK, N.I and Ireland all agree to leave no border it absolutely falls to the EU to come up with a alternative or install a hard border their side.


No it's up to the UK who are abandoning, by your admission, their commitments, not the EU who is sticking to theirs.



Arnie83 said:


> In effect they would be trying to leave the EU, stop paying fees, ignoring ECJ jurisdiction, but trying to continue trading across the border as though they were still members of the single market and customs union. They would be forcing a hard border and would rightly become an international pariah.


Membership perks without membership was promised by the leave campaign though. After all the UK holds all the cards doesn't it.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> No it's up to the UK who are abandoning, by your admission, their commitments, not the EU who is sticking to theirs.


Hmmm, so if the EU want a Ireland hard border and the UK, N.I and Ireland don't it's up to the UK to pay for the EU's border. How does that work then? The whole no hard border agreement (beyond trade) between the UK and Ireland is nothing to do with the EU. I think you also don't understand the importance Ireland (north and south) and the UK put on the lack of a border.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> Remain 56% Leave 44%


As slim as there election results.

I don't see the Northern Irish taking to the streets protesting. Plus they voted in the DUP.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> As slim as there election results.
> 
> I don't see the Northern Irish taking to the streets protesting. Plus they voted in the DUP.


Yet you appear to see 52% leave and 48% remain as a landslide!

Like any political party the DUP could be voted out in 2022.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Like any political party the DUP could be voted out in 2022.


So could the Conservatives. And?

We'll be out of the EU way before then.

Sorry I didn't get what you was grasping at.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Hmmm, so if the EU want a Ireland hard border and the UK, N.I and Ireland don't it's up to the UK to pay for the EU's border. How does that work then? The whole no hard border agreement (beyond trade) between the UK and Ireland is nothing to do with the EU. I think you also don't understand the importance Ireland (north and south) and the UK put on the lack of a border.


Standard answer is it "you don't understand"? I probably have a better idea than many considering I have family actually on the border concerned. What you mean is I don't scapegoat the EU for the UK's posturing and previous commitments.

EU doesn't want a hard border but at the same time it is required between a non-EU/EEA member and a member of the EU. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with what allows the EU single market to work in relation to the trade aspect. Everything from standards, patents etc all of which rely on commonality throughout. You also have things like smuggling. Then maybe you should also look into the schengen area and what having an "open border" does in regards to security.

What you don't seem to want to realise is the simple fact that you are determining the EU's inability to allow a soft border by simply repeating the leave mantra "take back control". You still haven't answered. How do you take back control without a border?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> EU doesn't want a hard border but at the same time it is required between a non-EU/EEA member and a member of the EU. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with what allows the EU single market to work in relation to the trade aspect. Everything from standards, patents etc all of which rely on commonality throughout. You also have things like smuggling. Then maybe you should also look into the schengen area and what having an "open border" does in regards to security.
> 
> What you don't seem to want to realise is the simple fact that you are determining the EU's inability to allow a soft border by simply repeating the leave mantra "take back control". You still haven't answered. How do you take back control without a border?


Thank you. You admit it's a EU issue more than UK.

Please show me where I said "take back control", pretty sure I haven't.

I did actually answer the question about taking back control without a border, however you might have missed it as it was in reply to @Arnie83 a couple of pages ago. So as I've made the personal choice of not constantly repeating myself on Brexit (for the sake of sanity) I'll not be responding to that question further.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Hmmm, so if the EU want a Ireland hard border and the UK, N.I and Ireland don't it's up to the UK to pay for the EU's border. How does that work then? The whole no hard border agreement (*beyond trade*) between the UK and Ireland is nothing to do with the EU. I think you also don't understand the importance Ireland (north and south) and the UK put on the lack of a border.


Trade in goods and services is the main reason for border crossings in Ireland, isn't it?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Trade in goods and services is the main reason for border crossings in Ireland, isn't it?


No, hence why the "hard" border was in place long after the single market came into being.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

..


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Thank you. You admit it's a EU issue more than UK.


No it's a UK issue. UK is breaking their commitment having been told before the referendum and handing in Article 50 the requirements. The UK is breaking it's commitments not the EU and providing no alternatives.



> I did actually answer the question about taking back control without a border, however you might have missed it as it was in reply to @Arnie83 a couple of pages ago. So as I've made the personal choice of not constantly repeating myself on Brexit (for the sake of sanity) I'll not be responding to that question further.


All I've seen is evasion and trying to shove the responsibility from where it belongs.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 335646


Wasn't all this found to be fake from Open Britain? We've already found this was all wrong as the guy that runs Open Britain, James McGrory was shamed in an interview with Andrew Neil and this is what Daniel Hannan said in response to Open Britain:




To me Daniel Hannan's actual statement and response is somewhat different from the way Open Britain make it out to be.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> No it's a UK issue. UK is breaking their commitment having been told before the referendum and handing in Article 50 the requirements. The UK is breaking it's commitments not the EU and providing no alternatives.
> 
> All I've seen is evasion and trying to shove the responsibility from where it belongs.


No, we are leaving the EU. If Ireland, N.I and the UK decide no borders are the order of the day (eg due to past commitments) then any border is up to the EU to implement because they want it. Why would the UK put up a border where it was agreed between the three participating parties none of them wanted one? It'd be a EU border nothing more and nothing less.

I've not evaded anything, quite the opposite actually if you read my reply


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, we are leaving the EU. If Ireland, N.I and the UK decide no borders are the order of the day (due to past commitments) then any border is up to the EU to implement because they want it. Why would the UK put up a border where it was agreed between the three participating parties none of them wanted one? It'd be a EU border nothing more and nothing less.


There we have it. It really is as simple as that. Really. All of this hoo-ha is just deliberate obfuscation from the petty-minded little bureaucrats in Brussels. The border non-issue has been turned into an issue because of the recalcitrance of the EU negotiators creating a catch 22 situation where none need exist.

I am firmly with IDS on this (well actually I was there months ago); now is the time for Theresa May to walk away from the negotiating table until (and unless) our opponents start behaving in a mature fashion. Doubt she will though. I think she is conflicted.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, we are leaving the EU. If Ireland, N.I and the UK decide no borders are the order of the day (eg due to past commitments) then any border is up to the EU to implement because they want it.


No,it's also international requirement to respect borders. Oh look, WTO border reglulations...



> Why would the UK put up a border where it was agreed between the three participating parties none of them wanted one? It'd be a EU border nothing more and nothing less.


Failing again to correct the idea that you cannot have control of an open border. Control many people voted for in the referendum. Solutions have been put forward by the EU. UK has rejected them. Up to the UK to suggest workable solutions. Funny isn't it, you ignore well over 2% of those who voted leave in the referendum to "control our borders". What does that do to the leave majority?



Satori said:


> I am firmly with IDS on this (well actually I was there months ago); now is the time for Theresa May to walk away from the negotiating table until (and unless) our opponents start behaving in a mature fashion. Doubt she will though. I think she is conflicted.


Would help if they actually had, you know something called impact studies, rather than jump off a cliff hoping flapping arms works.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, hence why the "hard" border was in place long after the single market came into being.


What are the reasons for border crossings that are more numerous than that of trade in goods and services?

If anyone transports goods, buys anything, from groceries to petrol, sells anything from haircuts to the energy in overhead wires, that's trade.

Apart from social visits and drives in the countryside, I'm struggling to think of much else.

??


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> What are the reasons for border crossings that are more numerous than that of trade in goods and services?
> 
> If anyone transports goods, buys anything, from groceries to petrol, sells anything from haircuts to the energy in overhead wires, that's trade.
> 
> ...


Do you not? Do you live in the UK
or Ireland? If not I understand you might not be aware of the significance of the Irish border.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Unless you live in Northern Ireland you would never understand (I have a large family in Northern Ireland, born and bred). But lets try and put this simply. In 1921 the Island of Ireland had a civil war as the republic rose up against there British rulers. In 1922 the Island of Ireland was split and the Irish Free State created in the South. Northern Ireland chose to stay British and remained within the UK. To this day the Northern Irish remains British because they are happy being part of the United Kingdom. It is the Republic of Ireland or should I say LV who is pushing to reunited Ireland. Northern Irish citizens have made it clear in previous Irish Border polls that they have no desire to reunite Ireland like LV wants. Only the Northern Irish can call a border poll not the Republic as it was the Northern Irish that decided to stay under the rule of the British (United Kingdom). The DUP have no desire to call a border poll and there is no desire for anymore elections in the near future. Westminster has to give permission for a border poll to take place as well because payment of such a poll comes out of British Tax Payers pockets.

In the Belfast Telegraph on the 25th october 2017 it was said that if a border poll did take place today the Northern Irish would vote 62.86% to remain in the UK and 37.14% against remaining in the UK which is far different from LV's claim that 50% plus 1 would vote to reunite Ireland.








So if a border poll happened Northern Ireland would remain in the UK.

The border in Ireland was originally created to keep the peace between the North and South and to split Ireland as the Irish Free State (The Republic) wanted to be Independent.

Lets roll forward to recent history. The Republic of Ireland decided to join the EEC that later became the EU because its closest trading partner the UK joined. Back then the EEC was a trading agreement between European countries and nothing else.

Recent history in Northern Ireland. The Northern Irish voted in the Democratic Unionist Party in June 2017 in there recent election. Sinn Fein came second. Both parties must form a power sharing assembly but have failed. This leaves the DUP as the ruling party but no assembly in power. At the moment Ireland is being run by the Northern Irish MP's in Northern Ireland.

The way the Republic are behaving they think they are in power of the whole of Ireland and they aren't.

Northern Ireland want to remain in the UK and this won't change.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Do you not? Do you live in the UK
> or Ireland? If not I understand you might not be aware of the significance of the Irish border.


Sorry, I don't understand; do I not what?

You said that trade in goods and services wasn't the main reason for crossing the 'border' between NI & I, as per ...



Arnie83 said:


> *Trade in goods and services is the main reason for border crossings in Ireland, isn't it?*





Dr Pepper said:


> *No*, hence why the "hard" border was in place long after the single market came into being.



and I was wondering what the more numerous reasons for border crossings were.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, we are leaving the EU. *If Ireland, N.I and the UK decide no borders are the order of the day *(eg due to past commitments) then any border is up to the EU to implement because they want it. Why would the UK put up a border where it was agreed between the three participating parties none of them wanted one? It'd be a EU border nothing more and nothing less.





Satori said:


> There we have it. It really is as simple as that. Really. *All of this hoo-ha is just deliberate obfuscation from the petty-minded little bureaucrats in Brussels.* The border non-issue has been turned into an issue because of the recalcitrance of the EU negotiators creating a catch 22 situation where none need exist.


I've tried hard to see this from an anti-EU Leaver point of view, but I struggle.

Leo Varadkar clearly doesn't want a border, any more than May & co and the DUP. No-one wants a border. Including the rest of the EU, as they have made clear from the start. That much is unarguable.

But if, post-Brexit, there is divergence of regulations between the EU and the UK - which Mogg says is 'whence come the benefits' of leaving - then goods and services from the UK may not and in some cases will not comply with EU law governing the single market.

*What you are suggesting - especially with the 'petty bureaucrat' jibe - is that it is somehow unreasonable for the EU not to allow illegal trade across their border.*

If the regulations in the UK are tightened in some areas, is it unreasonable for the UK to restrict entry of goods and services that don't comply? Would that be the fault of petty bureaucrats in Westminster? Or should we just allow a free-for-all?

Varadkar's government must comply with EU law, which is why Brexit & divergence force a hard border unless a different solution can be found. That is why Ireland are threatening to delay the go-ahead to phase 2 of talks until they are guaranteed that there will be no border at the end of the talks, deal or not

What am I missing here?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> That is why Ireland are threatening to delay the go-ahead to phase 2 of talks until they are guaranteed that there will be no border at the end of the talks, deal or not


Well it's funny you say this because earlier this week LV said he has no desire to delay the talks going to phase 2.

Today on the news - TM has apparently said a new text will be applied to the draft agreement which involves NI and the Republic of Ireland. So hopefully LV will agree to it and this can move on to phase 2?

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...ver-mays-redraft-of-border-deal-36386249.html


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, I don't understand; do I not what?
> 
> You said that trade in goods and services wasn't the main reason for crossing the 'border' between NI & I, as per ...
> 
> ...


Sorry the "do you not" was a bad bit of English on my part.

@stockwellcat. has hopefully answered your question regarding the border.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it's funny you say this because earlier this week LV said he has no desire to delay the talks going phase 2.
> 
> Today on the news - TM has apparently said a new text will be applied to the draft agreement which involves NI and the Republic of Ireland. So hopefully LV will agree to it and this can move on to phase 2?
> 
> https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...ver-mays-redraft-of-border-deal-36386249.html


I'm sure he hasn't any desire to delay the talks, but this is the last time he will have leverage to make sure the 'no border' clause is included before it's pretty much out of his control, so he has to make use of it. I have to say it doesn't seem unreasonable to me; an open border is all he wants out of this so he has to do what he must to get it.

Hopefully, as you say, the wording can be changed to make everyone happy.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Sorry the "do you not" was a bad bit of English on my part.
> 
> @stockwellcat. *has hopefully answered your question regarding the border.*


Well no, but it was only that I was intrigued what you thought people crossed the border for if it wasn't trade, and I guess I can live without an answer.

You can move on to the 'petty bureaucracy' of not allowing illegal trade if you like!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Well no, but it was only that I was intrigued what you thought people crossed the border for if it wasn't trade, and I guess I can live without an answer.
> 
> You can move on to the 'petty bureaucracy' of not allowing illegal trade if you like!


Ok, you don't understand, fair enough, but it does put you in a very weak position when discussing the Irish/NI border.

You never did say where you live?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, you don't understand, fair enough, but it does put you in a very weak position when discussing the Irish/NI border.
> 
> You never did say where you live?


Oh. Well perhaps you would, after all, be so good as to educate me. You said that the main reason for crossing the border between Northern and Southern Ireland was not trade in goods or services.

What is it, then?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Oh. Well perhaps you would, after all, be so good as to educate me. You said that the main reason for crossing the border between Northern and Southern Ireland was not trade in goods or services.
> 
> What is it, then?


I didn't mention crossing the border but rather the border itself and why a very hard border remained long after EU freedom of movement and goods was introduced. And the reason it remained is the very reason a hard border isn't wanted.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> I didn't mention crossing the border but rather the border itself and why a very hard border remained long after EU freedom of movement and goods was introduced. And the reason it remained is the very reason a hard border isn't wanted.


Ah. But all my questions were about border crossings, and my point was that since trade was the reason for the vast majority of those border crossings, it was not something that could simply be discounted in the discussions.

Clearly the issue of a hard border is much wider and for reasons more important than trade - which I of course fully understand - but unless you solve the trade issue, you can't just say 'We won't have a border'.

And that then ties in to preventing the illegal movement of goods and services when regulations diverge, which it is not unreasonable.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

My concern is LV wants the border to be moved to the Irish sea thus cutting Northern Ireland off from the rest of the UK. It would mean customs checks are done in the UK before goods and people leave the UK to Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

This is like holding a member of the United Kingdom to the demands of an EU member country. This plan is unworkable for all sides of this that being Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom.

The Irish border does not need to be an issue as it is currently open because both sides are currently in the EU. The land based border would exist again if the UK hard brexited. We still have a Common Travel Area with The Republic of Ireland that has been in force long before the EU existed. The CTA allows the travel of people and goods to travel freely without checks between the United Kingdom and The Republic of Ireland. Hopefully this will be taken into consideration on the redrafting of the NI and Republic deal as it seems to be, being ignored at the moment?

LV is playing a difficult and dangerous game. What the republic wants won't necessarily be what the republic gets with this.

I am hoping that some form of wording and agreement can be made that does not cut Northern Ireland off from the rest of the United Kingdom which it is a member of?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't see the Northern Irish taking to the streets protesting. Plus they voted in the DUP.


Not everyone did of course, in the same sense not everyone voted for TM!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Not everyone did of course, in the same sense not everyone voted for TM!
> View attachment 335711
> View attachment 335712


So the solution is to allow the Republic to stick a border out in the Irish Sea and cut Northern Ireland off from the United Kingdom who they are a member of?

This solution is not workable.

Let's hope the redrafting of the border agreement by TM is acceptable to all parties. LV will get to see this later today early tomorrow and hopefully will agree to whatever the new terms are and the DUP agree as well?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> My concern is LV wants the border to be moved to the Irish sea thus cutting Northern Ireland off from the rest of the UK. It would mean customs checks are done in the UK before goods and people leave the UK to Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
> 
> This is like holding a member of the United Kingdom to the demands of an EU member country. This plan is unworkable for all sides of this that being Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen Varadkar say that (re 'wanting' the border in the Irish Sea) but it's one of only a few options isn't it.

May has already said we are going to 'hard' Brexit because we're leaving the single market and the customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ with the express purpose (according to Rees-Mogg & IDS & co) of diverging from EU rules.

That decision means either
1) A border on the island of Ireland or
2) A border in the Irish Sea or
3) A border between Ireland and the rest of the EU or
4) Everyone ignores all the rules in both the UK and the EU and lets illegal goods and services cross between the EU and the UK with no border anywhere

Once the UK has said that they are leaving the single market / customs union / ECJ what other choice is there?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't seen Varadkar say that (re 'wanting' the border in the Irish Sea) but it's one of only a few options isn't it.
> 
> May has already said we are going to 'hard' Brexit because we're leaving the single market and the customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ with the express purpose (according to Rees-Mogg & IDS & co) of diverging from EU rules.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. TM and her government unilaterally opted for leaving the SM/CU/ECJ, not the EU.

I'm as against the idea of a sea border as much as everyone else.

Isn't that what Brexit is all about, "Taking control of our borders" which surely means the re-erection of borders including between NI and the Republic?

The idea of no NI/ROI border post Brexit "of the past" has become another meaningless sound bite.

Opt for keeping the entire UK in the SM/CU/ECJ. It's the only answer if a border isn't wanted.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't seen Varadkar say that (re 'wanting' the border in the Irish Sea) but it's one of only a few options isn't it.
> 
> May has already said we are going to 'hard' Brexit because we're leaving the single market and the customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ with the express purpose (according to Rees-Mogg & IDS & co) of diverging from EU rules.
> 
> ...


Well the republic did want to put the border in the Irish sea as many have come forward to say DUP was right to reject the draft bill including Bombardier:
http://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/a...backs-rejection-of-brexit-border-in-irish-sea

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...brexit-border-in-irish-sea-1.3311275?mode=amp


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> We still have a Common Travel Area with The Republic of Ireland that has been in force long before the EU existed. The CTA allows the travel of people and goods to travel freely without checks between the United Kingdom and The Republic of Ireland. Hopefully this will be taken into consideration on the redrafting of the NI and Republic deal as it seems to be, being ignored at the moment?


Is being taken into consideration. UK were told it would not necessarily be feasible to keep no borders as part of the CTA if the UK left the EU before the referendum. As someone obviously so concerned with Ireland having family there surely this would have been of primary interest in your decision. You voted for mutually exclusive commitments in Ireland, knowing before the referendum this would likely be the case. You did know what you were voting for afterall didn't you? Brexit is brexit and all that.

You then say possible solutions are not acceptable. Yet to see suggestions of acceptable solutions.

You've also avoided the question of how do you control a border as promised by the leave campaign without "control" and checking anything?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the republic did want to put the border in the Irish sea as many have come forward to say DUP was right to reject the draft bill including Bombardier:


Of course not. Then again, you voted for something where there is no acceptable answer for those directly affected.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> You voted for mutually exclusive commitments in Ireland, knowing before the referendum this would likely be the case. gl


Mutual interests in the United Kingdom which includes Northern Ireland not Ireland.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the republic did want to put the border in the Irish sea as many have come forward to say DUP was right to reject the draft bill including Bombardier:
> http://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/a...backs-rejection-of-brexit-border-in-irish-sea
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/arlene-foster-dup-will-not-accept-brexit-border-in-irish-sea-1.3311275?mode=amp


So what's your answer to the problem?

Where would you put your border? Or would you allow free movement of illegal goods & services?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Of course not. Then again, you voted for something where there is no acceptable answer for those directly affected.


It's all over the media that the Republic intended having a sea border with the Island of Ireland. Who are they to dictate to a member state of the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland)? They are a separate state and do not govern Northern Ireland at all. If I remember rightly it is not the EU putting these rules down in the Ireland agreement it is the Republic. The EU said they would back the Republic of Ireland in this part of the negotiations.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Mutual interests in the United Kingdom which includes Northern Ireland not Ireland.


Real world here. You live in an international environment where you also are responsible for neighbours with things like borders. Even trade through things like the WTO which has rules for cross border trade which includes th NI/Ireland border.



stockwellcat. said:


> It's all over the media that the Republic intended having a sea border with the Island of Ireland. Who are they to dictate to a member state of the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland)? They are a separate state and do not govern Northern Ireland at all. If I remember rightly it is not the EU putting these rules down in the Ireland agreement it is the Republic. The EU said they would back the Republic of Ireland in this part of the negotiations.


No, Republic of Ireland is not dictating, they are recommended workable alternatives. Something the UK government is failing to do.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> So what's your answer to the problem?
> 
> Where would you put your border? Or would you allow free movement of illegal goods & services?


CTA. The EU have no jurisdiction over this as it is a separate agreement the UK and the Republic made in 1922/1923. The EU have no right ignoring this and may I point out dictating its terms.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Who are they to dictate to a member state of the United Kingdom


Who are the UK to dictate to Ireland what should and shouldn't be done? The UK Government caused this problem through hubris, pride and short-sighted lack of planning. The Irish Government has a right to get the best deal they can out the mess created.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Real world here. You live in an international environment where you also are responsible for neighbours. You know even trade through things like the WTO which has rules for international trade (across NI/Ireland border).
> 
> No, Republic of Ireland is not dictating, they are recommended workable alternatives. Something the UK government is failing to do.


I am in the real world. You are so wrapped up in the EU.

Northern Ireland is a member state of the United Kingdom and have no interest in leaving the UK.

Let's see what this new draft agrerment wording says and if LV accepts it.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> Who are the UK to dictate to Ireland what should and shouldn't be done? The UK Government caused this problem through hubris, pride and short-sighted lack of planning. The Irish Government has a right to get the best deal they can out the mess created.


Irish Government have no right telling the Northern Irish they want to reunite Ireland when the Northern Irish are very happy in the United Kingdom. The republic has no jurisdiction over Northern Ireland and only Northern Ireland can make this decision not them.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

And the UK Government have no right to insist on a hard border. It will take negotiation. A skill that May is severely lacking.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> A skill that May is severely lacking.


Well there's something I may agree with you on that's why I have repeatedly made it clear she should step aside and let someone else take over. Who is the big question though?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> CTA. The EU have no jurisdiction over this as it is a separate agreement the UK and the Republic made in 1922/1923. The EU have no right ignoring this and may I point out dictating its terms.


I don't see how the CTA is relevant.

It covers free movement of people between Ireland and the UK of Irish and British people. That won't change whatever happens.

We're talking about the movement of goods and services, subject to EU rules and standards, from the EU (i.e. Ireland) into the UK (i.e. Northern Ireland) - and vice versa - where they would be illegal if regulations diverge after Brexit. Would you allow that illegal movement? And if not, how would you prevent it without a border?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well there's something I may agree with you on that's why I have repeatedly made it clear she should step aside and let someone else take over. Who is the big question though?


Well, you may agree with me on that but you've been avoiding Arnie's question for pages.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> Well, you may agree with me on that but you've been avoiding Arnie's question for pages.


What question?

If you mean about the border. The Republic of Ireland have no right insisting on creating one. It is them that are insisiting on putting one in the Irish Sea cutting Northern Ireland (a UK member state) from the rest of the UK.

With reagards to the movement of Goods and Sevices it is becoming clear they'd have to create some kind of deal on this that is acceptable not just with the Republic but with DUP as well as Westminster instead of trying to do back handers behind the DUP's back as it is clear this is what happened on Monday. A deal can be done with the UK being in the Customs Union and Single Market. We are the Republic's biggest trader, we trade 72% of our goods with The Republic so they'd be silly not to come to some kind of deal.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> With reagards to the movement of Goods and Sevices it is becoming clear they'd have to create some kind of deal on this that is acceptable not just with the Republic but with DUP as well as Westminster instead of trying to do back handers behind the DUP's back as it is clear this is what happened on Monday. *A deal can be done with the UK being in the Customs Union and Single Market.* We are the Republic's biggest trader, we trade 72% of our goods with The Republic so they'd be silly not to come to some kind of deal.


But we have said we're leaving both of those.

If we stayed in, the problem of the border would be solved.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> But we have said we're leaving both of those.
> 
> If we stayed in, the problem of the border would be solved.


The problem with the border can be solved out of them by having a separate deal/arrangement like the CTA is a separate arrangment from the EU deals we have as it is specific for the UK and Republic of Ireland and not Governed by the EU.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem with the border can be solved out of them by having a separate deal/arrangement like the CTA is a separate arrangment from the EU deals we have as it is specific for the UK and Republic of Ireland and not Governed by the EU.


Sorry to be awkward, but I don't think it can. Ireland have to stick to the rules of the single market and customs union. They can't make a special deal with the UK.

Besides which, even if they could (which they can't ) the deal would only cover Irish goods & services going to Britain and vice versa. How would you stop non-Irish EU goods & services from coming into Ireland and through to the UK, or British goods going into Ireland and through to the rest of the EU, without a border somewhere to check them?

But it's not fair of me to demand an answer from you. I certainly have no idea how to solve the problem that the UK have caused by voting to leave the EU and then stating that we're leaving the single market and the customs union as well.

But since @Dr Pepper and @Satori think it's all easy, and the fault of the EU, perhaps they will help us out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I am in the real world. You are so wrapped up in the EU.
> 
> Northern Ireland is a member state of the United Kingdom and have no interest in leaving the UK.


Don't have to. Already "devolved" with potentially own laws and regulations.


stockwellcat. said:


> What question?
> 
> If you mean about the border. The Republic of Ireland have no right insisting on creating one. It is them that are insisiting on putting one in the Irish Sea cutting Northern Ireland (a UK member state) from the rest of the UK.


Every right to actually insist the UK upholds it's end of previous commitments. UK is leaving the EU which is causing incompatibilities.



> We are the Republic's biggest trader, we trade 72% of our goods with The Republic so they'd be silly not to come to some kind of deal.


Single market... it's not simply the Republic is it. Not everyone is isolationist. No wonder you don't recognise the problems when that simple fact is at the heart of the problem. Ireland as a whole another example of where Brexit is lose/lose on all sides. It's, as always an exercise in minimising impact and damage rather than them vs us.[[/QUOTE]


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry to be awkward, but I don't think it can. Ireland have to stick to the rules of the single market and customs union. They can't make a special deal with the UK.
> 
> Besides which, even if they could (which they can't ) the deal would only cover Irish goods & services going to Britain and vice versa. How would you stop non-Irish EU goods & services from coming into Ireland and through to the UK, or British goods going into Ireland and through to the rest of the EU, without a border somewhere to check them?
> 
> ...


Never said it would be easy, never said I knew the answer (quite the opposite in fact). What I did say is it's as much, if not more, a EU issue as it is a UK one.

But I've pretty much given up replying to your posts as you just claim you were talking about something different when you realise you have made a error.

Anyway, I'll offer up a idea. As NI and it's border with Southern Ireland is obviously a special case there is always the Channel Islands model which I believe provided them with freedom of movement of goods but nothing else. I do realise there are issues there regarding smuggling and UK companies setting up in NI.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well the EU have just extended their self imposed deadline on their self imposed phases of the Brexit Negotiations from tomorrow night (Friday) to Sunday for an agreement to be made between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. I suppose that is to give the LV time to read and decide on the new wording being added to the deal for the Republic of Ireland and UK's Northern Ireland. I wonder if all aspects have been put passed the DUP this time?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem with the border can be solved out of them by having a separate deal/arrangement like the CTA is a separate arrangment from the EU deals we have as it is specific for the UK and Republic of Ireland and not Governed by the EU.


Except we can't. Was not one of the major points of the Leave campaign that once outside of the EU we can negotiate our own deals independently, which member states of the EU aren't allowed to do?

The Republic of Ireland are still part of the EU. Therefore they cannot negotiate separate agreements and deals with the UK, as all negotiations will be via the EU and backed by the EU.

The CTA can't really be cited as an example of negotiating a separate arrangement, as that existed long before the EU or even it'd predecessors was conceived.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I hope @Goblin and @Arnie83 don't think I have the answers to.

I forgot about the Channel Islands and Isle of Man @Dr Pepper and what a good point to raise.

But seeing as this seems to be going around in circles because yet again the answers are not acceptable to you @Arnie83 and @Goblin I think I'll not offer my responses from now on on this thread. At the end of the day you're not going to read the responses you want on a petforum or anywhere else online. Perhaps you could write to the Prime Minister in the hope that you get a response from her or one of the staff at Downing Street or even your local MP. Perhaps they might be able to help you on your endless task of not accepting peoples responses.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> But I've pretty much given up replying to your posts as you just claim you were talking about something different when you realise you have made a error.


I really should let it go, shouldn't I, because it's beginning to resemble a playground and I don't want the thread closed on my account, but you know how I can't abide inaccuracies ...

So, this is the beginning of that exchange.



Arnie83 said:


> Trade in goods and services is the main reason for border crossings in Ireland, isn't it?





Dr Pepper said:


> No, hence why the "hard" border was in place long after the single market came into being.


Feel free to point out the error. Otherwise, please try to be as respectful to me as I try to be to you.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Anyway, I'll offer up a idea. As NI and it's border with Southern Ireland is obviously a special case there is always the Channel Islands model which I believe provided them with freedom of movement of goods but nothing else. I do realise there are issues there regarding smuggling and UK companies setting up in NI.


Okay. But if the UK and the EU have diverged on regulations and standards - as the Brexiteers want - how is either side supposed to ensure that the goods crossing the lack of border are compliant (legal) in their own jurisdiction?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> I really should let it go, shouldn't I, because it's beginning to resemble a playground and I don't want the thread closed on my account, but you know how I can't abide inaccuracies ...
> 
> So, this is the beginning of that exchange.
> 
> Feel free to point out the error. Otherwise, please try to be as respectful to me as I try to be to you.


You know that's taken out of context and we were talking about the border and not the reasons for crossing it. So as I said movement of trade wasn't the reason for the border and the hard border remained long after freedom of movement of trade and people came into force.



Arnie83 said:


> Okay. But if the UK and the EU have diverged on regulations and standards - as the Brexiteers want - how is either side supposed to ensure that the goods crossing the lack of border are compliant (legal) in their own jurisdiction?


Don't know. Maybe see how the Channel Islands do it.

In business you succeed when you realise just because something hasn't been done before it doesn't mean it can't be done. Same goes with Brexit.

I'm done now. Probably.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> *I hope @Arnie83 [doesn't] think I have the answers*.





Arnie83 said:


> But *it's not fair of me to demand an answer from you*. I certainly have no idea how to solve the problem that the UK have caused by voting to leave the EU and then stating that we're leaving the single market and the customs union as well.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Don't know. Maybe see how the Channel Islands do it.


"Under Protocol 3, Guernsey [& Jersey] is part of the EU Customs Union and is able to trade in goods and agricultural products as if it were part of the EU, without any Customs charges being levied. This means that trade is unrestricted by tariffs, quotas or other barriers (except VAT). Any traded products must meet the relevant standards and environmental requirements of the EU."

https://www.gov.gg/article/152732/Constitution-position-and-customs-territory

So all we have to do is stay in the Customs Union! 

If you don't mind my asking: Why do you think the Irish border issue is more of an issue for the EU than for the UK?


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Just do not forget that, we still have DUP, even if May and Ireland/ EU find solution - DUP says - NO.

Round and round we go ..


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just do not forget that, we still have DUP, even if May and Ireland/ EU find solution - DUP says - NO.
> 
> Round and round we go ..


I was studiously not bringing that one up!

But you're exactly right: if the DUP refuse anything that treats NI as a special case - i.e any different from the rest of the UK - then the options are even further reduced.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just do not forget that, we still have DUP, even if May and Ireland/ EU find solution - DUP says - NO.
> 
> Round and round we go ..


I think May learnt her lesson Monday not to try and side step the DUP. Hopefully the new wording in the draft deal has been agreed upon with all parties?

Regarding the DUP going around in circles, if May had ran the draft deal past the DUP first she would have known they would have objected to a border out in the Irish Sea and to right that Northern Ireland should not remain in the Customs Union and Single Market whilst the rest of the United Kingdom leaves. Don't forget that Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom as well and would have been cut off from the rest of the UK with the previous draft deal.

Anyhow. Hopefully something positive can come out of this and we can move onto phase 2? We will find out in the next 72 hours.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@Arnie83
I accept what you said. No problems. If I knew the answers you'd be first to know.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> But you're exactly right: if the DUP refuse anything that treats NI as a special case - i.e any different from the rest of the UK - then the options are even further reduced.


Well that's why everyone, TM, AF and LV need to be in agreement to everything relating to the Irish Border instead of trying to side step the DUP. It's called talking to one another.

Hopefully this time round the wording and the draft deal is satisfactory to those involved in Ireland and Northern Ireland?


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

People will be pleased to know the EU actually did and impact report specifically for the problems relating to Ireland unlike the UK government. Of course the border crossing is only one of the issues. You have things like fishing rights which could potentially be another issue but doesn't affect as many people.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> People will be pleased to know the EU actually did and impact report specifically for the problems relating to Ireland unlike the UK government. Of course the border crossing is only one of the issues. You have things like fishing rights which could potentially be another issue but doesn't affect as many people.


Really pleased they done an impact study.
It is a shame this Government didn't do one for the UK.

Another issue that wasn't agreed upon apparently on Monday was the length of time the ECJ should have jurisdiction on EU laws in the UK after Brexit. Junker said 15 years (until 2030) the UK has said up to 5 years and I do believe that this is something TM is not backing down on. Although we can never tell what will happen next with this saga.


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry to be awkward, but I don't think it can. Ireland have to stick to the rules of the single market and customs union. They can't make a special deal with the UK.
> 
> Besides which, even if they could (which they can't ) the deal would only cover Irish goods & services going to Britain and vice versa. How would you stop non-Irish EU goods & services from coming into Ireland and through to the UK, or British goods going into Ireland and through to the rest of the EU, without a border somewhere to check them?
> 
> ...


None of this is our problem.

If the UK and EU strike a comprehensive tariff-free trade deal the real Irish border issue goes away. That is fully in the hands of Brussels.

If there is no trade deal then let's see.... Great Britain does not want a border, nor does NI nor does the Republic. If Brussels wants a border separating Ireland then, in that circumstance, they would have to instruct the Republic to implement one. Good luck with that!

Either way the problem and solution lies with Brussels. They just need to get their fingers out of their backsides and tell us which way they intend to play it instead of dragging the process out with their silly demands and pretend deadlines.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> None of this is our problem.
> 
> If the UK and EU strike a comprehensive tariff-free trade deal the real Irish border issue goes away. That is fully in the hands of Brussels.
> 
> ...


Tell them that, and quote the answer...(remember t- the family forum rules...)...Good luck!enguin


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> None of this is our problem.
> 
> If the UK and EU strike a comprehensive tariff-free trade deal the real Irish border issue goes away. That is fully in the hands of Brussels.
> 
> ...


Well, okay. But one might suggest ...

If the UK leave the EU but stay in the single market and the customs union, then the problem goes away. That is fully in the hands of the UK.

If they don't do that, then let's see .... No-one, including the EU, want a border. But neither the EU nor the UK would want goods and services that are illegal in their jurisdictions (due to divergent regulations) to flow freely across the non-existent border on the island of Ireland.

The problem therefore lies with both the EU and the UK. It is caused by the UK choosing to exit the EU. The onus is clearly on the UK to propose a workable solution instead of arguing amongst themselves in Cabinet, or being slapped down by their £1.5bn coalition partners, or threatening to throw their toys out the pram because in 18 months they still haven't faced up to the consequences of their actions.

Now you will say that the Tories have chosen to leave the single market and the customs union, so that solution is not available. But by the same token, the EU have already said that when we leave we cannot have the same benefits as members so a trade deal will fall well short of what we now have. And therein lies the problem.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lets hope this coalition doesn't happen .

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/martin-schulz-united-states-of-europe-germany-sdp

The leader of Germany's Social Democratic party has sketched out red lines for talks to form another coalition government with Angela Merkel.

In a speech at the SPD's party conference in Berlin that called for the creation of a "United States of Europe" by the year 2023, as well as a more robust social security net and a phasing out of coal power, Martin Schulz made the case for entering open-ended talks with the Christian Democratic Union (CDU).


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Lets hope this coalition doesn't happen .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/martin-schulz-united-states-of-europe-germany-sdp
> 
> ...


More than likely it has happened.
Check De Spiegel to confirm.

Please lets get on with getting out of the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Lets hope this coalition doesn't happen .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/martin-schulz-united-states-of-europe-germany-sdp
> 
> ...


Just checked and this is what De Spiegel have reported:
*The Dispiriting Prospect of a New Grand Coalition*
http://m.spiegel.de/international/g...-return-to-the-grand-coalition-a-1181318.html

It wasn't all that long ago that Angela Merkel and Martin Schulz were casting aspersions at one another. The chancellor led a "scandalous campaign," raged Schulz, the Social Democratic (SPD) chancellor candidate and party head. The SPD, countered the chancellor, "isn't capable of being in government."

On Thursday, German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier received the two party leaders for a long discussion, but even in the days leading up to that meeting, it had become clear that the two were eagerly burying the hatchet to lay the groundwork for a possible coalition. Schulz and Merkel, together with Horst Seehofer, who leads the Bavarian conservatives, now intend to explore the possibility of slapping together another governing coalition - the same "grand coalition" that voters so clearly rejected in the general election in late September.

As a group, Germans are thought to value political stability. But a repeat of the SPD-conservative coalition is the kind of stability that wouldn't be good for the country. The last four years have shown that a grand coalition is a static alliance, one that is good at spending money but not as adept at moving projects forward - aside from the project of right-wing populism, of course.

Deputy SPD head Olaf Scholz said recently that a rebirth of the grand coalition would "have negative consequences for our democracy." It would also mean that the right-wing populist Alternative for Germany (AfD) would be the strongest party in opposition. That means it would always have the privilege in parliament of delivering the first rebuttal to Merkel's speeches.

Nevertheless, for the leaders of the parties involved, a grand coalition isn't completely unattractive. For Merkel, it represents the best opportunity to secure her power, a motive that has long been important to her. And SPD head Martin Schulz already seems to be practicing the arguments he hopes to use at next week's party congress to convince unwilling delegates of the utility of another alliance with Merkel's conservatives.

First off, he said in an interview with DER SPIEGEL, the SPD has "always born responsibility for the common welfare." Secondly, issues such as old-age care, health care and education are projects that could "awaken Germany out of its torpor." And thirdly, he says, there are also reasonable politicians on the center-right.

Historically Poor

The goal, then, is that of a political alliance matching Merkel, Schulz and Seehofer, a list of names that symbolizes such a coalition's biggest weakness. It would be a trio from the stone age of German politics - a paleo-coalition. All three led their parties to historically poor results in the parliamentary elections on September 24. All three have powerful opponents in their own party. And all three have lost significant amounts of power in recent weeks.

More than anything, though, the triumvirate of the walking wounded has no idea how to design their alliance of convenience such that it is actually advantageous to all. In tax and social welfare policy, the parties are likely to come up with the kind of lazy compromises that make it even more difficult to determine what the parties stand for and which don't actually help the country. When it comes to the vital issue of climate protection, neither the SPD nor the conservatives are particularly passionate about it. And on Europe, an issue which both Merkel and Schulz would like to make the focus of any alliance, there are more open questions than either of them are willing to admit.

There is great danger that a relaunch of the grand coalition could accelerate the attenuation of Germany's two big-tent parties, similar to what has happened in the last several years in Austria. There, grand coalitions became the rule rather than the exception, and voter support for the parties involved plunged from election to election. Now, the right-wing populist Freedom Party of Austria will soon be in government.

For quite some time, it looked as though Merkel's presidential style of leadership might prevent the erosion of the political center here in Germany. Now, though, the chancellor's lack of a clear profile or political direction is no longer seen as a solution. It is seen as the problem - even within her own party, the Christian Democrats (CDU).

The lecture held by one-time CDU bigwig Friedrich Merz recently at a meeting of the party's economic council in Düsseldorf bore the title: "USA and Europe - Quo Vadis?" But Merz, who was once the party's floor leader in German parliament, had a different message for his party. "The strategy of putting as many opposing voters to sleep is surely now passé," he said, referring to Merkel's preferred campaign style of taking controversy out of political campaigns. Merz went on to say that if there were new elections, the party would have to "run a completely different kind of race."

Merz didn't have to mention the chancellor by name, but everybody in the audience knew that Merkel was the target of his criticism. And they were happy to hear it. One day earlier, members of the economic council had made it clear during a closed-door meeting what they thought of the chancellor. When the group's general secretary, Wolfgang Steiger, delivered a few comments about the policy changes within the CDU, a member of the audience stood up and said: "You forgot one thing: personnel changes." It was clear that he was referring to party chair Merkel - and the audience erupted in loud applause. In an effort to prevent the mood from getting out of hand, Steiger quickly reminded the room that "we are the economic council, not the personnel council."

A Monument to Stubbornness

The end of an era is often excruciating, and Germany's postwar history is full of chancellors who missed their opportunity to bow out gracefully. Konrad Adenauer had reached the biblical age of 87 before he finally handed the reins of power to his hated party ally Ludwig Erhard. Helmut Kohl, meanwhile, was little more than a monument to his own stubbornness after 16 years in the Chancellery.

Merkel has always insisted that she wanted full control over the end her political career - and indeed, she has never been beset by the kind of political hubris of someone like, say, Edmund Stoiber, the former governor of Bavaria who saw his political end not as a democratic necessity, but as an attack by political dilettantes. But when Merkel decided last November to once again run for re-election, she fell victim to the dreadful question that ultimately confronts everyone who has long been on top: Who else can do the job?

Sure, the situation in the world had become complicated. There was Brexit, there was Trump, there was the refugee question - all reasons that Merkel pointed to in justifying her decision to run. But she didn't recognize that she, herself, had become a divisive figure for many conservative voters.

Now, though, the country finds itself faced with a renewal of the grand coalition. The smallest problem facing Merkel are the industrial associations that want to do all they can to prevent a grand coalition and would even prefer a minority government over another alliance with the Social Democrats. A minority government "would be much more tolerable to the German economy than a partnership with the SPD, whose understanding of the social welfare state seems to come from the 19th century," says a leading functionary in Germany's employer association.

Much more dangerous for Merkel are the voices advocating for a minority government as a way to loosen her hold on power. Jens Spahn, the powerful leader of the CDU's conservative wing, got started last Sunday during a meeting of the party's leadership committee. "We can't have a grand coalition at any price," he said. "We should at least take one serious look at the idea of a minority government."

Spahn knows full well that a minority government is the last thing Merkel wants, and her reaction was predictably acerbic. "Nobody wants a coalition at any price," she said, adding that she would like the party to focus on ensuring that that talks with the SPD are successful. Merkel's loyal floor leader, Volker Kauder, echoed his boss, saying Germany needed a stable government. Plus, he said, you can't offer the SPD coalition talks while at the same time indicating that you'd be happy to govern without them. That, Kauder said, isn't acceptable.

Erosion of Merkel's Power

But all the appeals did little to help, yet another indication that Merkel is losing authority. "Given that the negotiations with the SPD are likely to be difficult and protracted, we of course won't lose sight of the option of a minority government," said Günter Krings, head of the influential group of CDU parliamentarians from North Rhine-Westphalia. The CDU's economic council even passed a formal resolution on Thursday in opposition to a grand coalition.

The erosion of Merkel's power is becoming more obvious by the day. On Monday, Germany's representative on the relevant European Union committee voted in favor of extending the license to sell the controversial herbicide glyphosate (Roundup) in the EU for another five years. "I made the decision right here at this table," said German Agricultural Minister Christian Schmidt in his Berlin office two days later, banging the palm of his hand down on the tabletop. He knew full well that his vote was contrary to the wishes of Merkel. Peter Altmaier, Merkel's chief of staff, had told him that he could only vote in favor of extending the license if Environment Minister Barbara Hendricks, of the SPD, agreed.

But Schmidt didn't care. His ministry counted up 288 pages of media reports resulting from Schmidt's decision. "You don't get that very often," he said, grinning. He seemed extremely satisfied with himself.

Merkel has spoken with him about the decision twice. The first time was on Monday evening, shortly after the vote, and the tone of their chat was businesslike, Schmidt says. The second time was on Tuesday, after the SPD had spent the preceding day complaining bitterly of the conservatives' breach of trust, and Merkel was much angrier. Even French President Emmanuel Macron was angry about the German vote.

Note: I didn't realise that the report is 2 pages long so please refer to the link above to read it.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Good news everyone. It looks like TM and LV are on the verge of a breakthrough on a deal. Donald Tusk is making a statement tomorrow morning at 6:50am UK time.

An Irish official has said a deal is within hours of being reached.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@stockwellcat. I hope so .
Boris latest
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...whole-uk-must-take-back-control-borders-cash/
Boris Johnson has sent a clear message to Theresa May that any deal for leaving the EU must involve "the whole of the UK taking back control" as negotiations over the Irish border continue.

In an apparent warning against offering special status to Northern Ireland or other areas of the country, the Foreign Secretary said that all parts of Britain must have control over the country's borders, laws and money.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat. I hope so .
> Boris latest
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...whole-uk-must-take-back-control-borders-cash/
> Boris Johnson has sent a clear message to Theresa May that any deal for leaving the EU must involve "the whole of the UK taking back control" as negotiations over the Irish border continue.
> ...


The news above in my post has literally just hit the news wires.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Just checked and this is what De Spiegel have reported:
> *The Dispiriting Prospect of a New Grand Coalition*
> http://m.spiegel.de/international/g...-return-to-the-grand-coalition-a-1181318.html
> 
> ...


Bejesus Stockwell. Put the Hobgoblin down and leave it out with the @noushka05 length posts.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Bejesus Stockwell. Put the Hobgoblin down and leave it out with the @noushka05 length posts.


I didn't realise it was that long. It kept going on and on and then at the bottom there was a link to page 2. I gave up. Not got a hobgoblin. I wish I had.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Here is the news article on the potential break through on the Ireland deal:

*Irish official sees Brexit border deal possible in 'hours'*
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...t-border-deal-possible-in-hours-idUKKBN1E12PT


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

I'd like to see a United States of Europe. It's the best thing for the future, with the tribal nationalists consigned to a rump that is no longer as dangerous as they are now.

It's just a shame we won't be able to be part of it. Though of course if we'd stayed in the EU we would simply have vetoed it, as it requires significant treaty change, so maybe it's for the best.

It most certainly won't happen in the suggested timescale.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> I'd like to see a United States of Europe. It's the best thing for the future, with the tribal nationalists consigned to a rump that is no longer as dangerous as they are now.
> 
> It's just a shame we won't be able to be part of it. Though of course if we'd stayed in the EU we would simply have vetoed it, as it requires significant treaty change, so maybe it's for the best.
> 
> It most certainly won't happen in the suggested timescale.


A USA

A US of Europe

Then a...

A US of Asia

And a...

US of Africa

Etc

Where and how does that end well when they want to expand their US beyond their continent?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Wasn't all this found to be fake from Open Britain? We've already found this was all wrong as the guy that runs Open Britain, James McGrory was shamed in an interview with Andrew Neil and this is what Daniel Hannan said in response to Open Britain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hannan is a very clever manipulator who subscribes to a very sinister ideology. He doesn't believe in free health care for all, he doesn't believe/care about climate change. You need to open your eyes and look what Hannan, Johnson, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Redwood, the Legatum Institute ( which advises Dexeu) have in store for Britain. They are pushing for 'no deal' for their own aims - don't be fooled SWC. They want to drop tariffs and remove labour standards, protection of the environment & so on. They want chaos because this is how disaster capitalism works. We will reap the whirl wind if we are pulled out of the EU without a deal. Only a tiny minority will benefit - the rest of us will suffer big time.

on Hannan.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Hannan is a very clever manipulator


 I was only pointing out he did not say what he said in the context Open Britain made it out to be.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> I was only pointing out he did not say what he said in the context Open Britain made it out to be.


Which would make them the manipulators


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> A USA
> 
> A US of Europe
> 
> ...


Because with (a lot of) time, and the acceptance that we are one species and shouldn't be a bunch of competing tribes all defending ourselves against 'the other' whom we portray as the enemy so much that we end up believing that to be true, we may just end up with a United States of the World, wherein conflict is the exception rather than the norm.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Put the Hobgoblin down


Just thought @Dr Pepper you'll have other members thinking I'm an alcoholic :Jawdrop


























But honestly









:Hilarious:Hilarious

Seriously though, I have not had a drop of alcohol today or yesterday


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Because with (a lot of) time, and the acceptance that we are one species and shouldn't be a bunch of competing tribes all defending ourselves against 'the other' whom we portray as the enemy so much that we end up believing that to be true, we may just end up with a United States of the World, wherein conflict is the exception rather than the norm.


I agree, but I can't imagine that happening for many a millennium. Or an alien invasion.

At the moment it just seems very dangerous if you follow United States through to it's conclusion. Whereas individual countries can only commit limited damage to the world as a whole.

We are so far off a United world at this moment in time, so it seems stupid to force it, let it come together organically is the way.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Just thought @Dr Pepper you'll have other members thinking I'm an alcoholic :Jawdrop
> View attachment 335791
> 
> View attachment 335792
> ...


What about now? It's gone 8pm


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> Because with (a lot of) time, and the acceptance that we are one species and shouldn't be a bunch of competing tribes all defending ourselves against 'the other' whom we portray as the enemy so much that we end up believing that to be true, we may just end up with a United States of the World, wherein conflict is the exception rather than the norm.


You just need to look at the different tribes in Africa to know that will never be the case


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> What about now? It's gone 8pm











It's fruit juice I tell ya, fruit juice. To early for alcohol.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 335799
> 
> It's fruit juice I tell ya, fruit juice. To early for alcohol.


Cider is apple and wine is grapes. That's two of your five a day. I'm sure hops count as well.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Cider is apple and wine is grapes. That's two of your five a day. I'm sure hops count as well.


5 a day...








































I hope they count?
:Hilarious:Hilarious

Only joking


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> 5 a day...
> View attachment 335801
> 
> View attachment 335803
> ...


They do. What's so funny? I've heard many people banging on about how a juice only diet is good for you. The above diet works for me, admittedly I've not lost much weight but then again I don't seem to care either.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I have been reading up on this potential deal and I really hope that they have run this past the DUP this time as someone has said on twitter the DUP have not signed off this proposed deal yet? The EU seem very happy with the wording but it's not them that will stall it, as the DUP could again or LV. The negotiations are working at a very fast pace at the moment and are scheduled to run late into the night with EU leaders willing to meet tomorrow to discuss it their side and Tusk delivering a speech tomorrow morning at 6:50am GMT. Looks promising.

_*Edited*_.
It does seem that the DUP are involved this time. Quote from the Independent newspaper:

The DUP's chief whip Sir Jeffrey Donaldson said: "Discussions are ongoing."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-dup-deal-theresa-may-news-updates-a8098216.html?amp


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> I have been reading up on this potential deal and I really hope that they have run this past the DUP this time as someone has said on twitter the DUP have not signed off this proposed deal yet? The EU seem very happy with the wording but it's not them that will stall it, as the DUP could again or LV. The negotiations are working at a very fast pace at the moment and are scheduled to run late into the night with EU leaders willing to meet tomorrow to discuss it their side and Tusk delivering a speech tomorrow morning at 6:50am GMT. Looks promising.
> 
> _*Edited*_.
> It does seem that the DUP are involved this time. Quote from the Independent newspaper:
> ...


Much as I'm loath to believe anything the Independent comes out with, I'm going to hope that they're right on this one


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Much as I'm loath to believe anything the Independent comes out with, I'm going to hope that they're right on this one


Is the Guardian a better source?:

The EU's chief spokesman, Margaritis Schinas, said the talks would continue through the night. He tweeted:

A negotiating team from the DUP, including its Westminster leader, Nigel Dodds, spent much of the day holed up in the Cabinet Office with May's team trying to make headway with a new draft text. Both DUP and No 10 sources said some progress had been made but they were not yet in a position to make an announcement.
https://www.amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/07/theresa-may-edges-closer-to-deal-with-dup-over-post-brexit-irish-border


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Great news.
Significant progress has been made.
AF happy that no border will be put in the Irish sea.
EU Commission recommending to move to phase 2.








EU Citizen's rights living in the UK and their children's future is protected. Junker has just said UK citizen's rights living in EU countries and their children will be the same.

TM said 3 million EU citizen's rights and their children's rights will be enshrined in UK law like UK Citizen's rights and their children's rights will be enshrined in EU law.

There will be no border on the Island of Ireland or in the Irish Sea.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 335857
> 
> Great news.
> Significant progress has been made.
> ...


It's a lies I tell you lies. There is still time to revoke article 50 and dismiss the non-binding opinion poll.

You bloody leavers will believe anything they tell you, it's fake news.

Mrs May will be out before Christmas.

There, that's out the way now so we can move on, just like Brexit is.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's a lies I tell you lies. There is still time to revoke article 50 and dismiss the non-binding opinion poll.


I thought you was Goblin for a moment :Hilarious


> it's fake news.


Donald Trump moment.


> Mrs May will be out before Christmas.


Jeremy Corbyn moment.



> There, that's out the way now so we can move on, just like Brexit is.


A @Dr Pepper moment and Brexitier moment.

Multiple personalities in one post. Are you feeling ok @Dr Pepper? :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

TM confirms we will be out of the Single Market and Customs Union and the UK as a whole will be leaving these but the UK will maintain full alignment with rules on Single Market and Customs Union for cross border trade. No new regulatory barriers.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Tusk confirms discussions to take place on a 2 year transition period. The UK must respect all EU laws and new laws in this period and abide to them, the UK will remain in the Customs Union and Single Market in this period, the UK will meet all its budget responsibilities during this period, the UK will still leave the EU on Brexit day (March 2019) but will become like Norway - a third country meaning the UK will not have any say on any new EU laws. Tusk to request that remaining EU members to mandate that discussions are to begin as soon as possible on this with Michel Bernier, EU negotiators and UK negotiators and David Davis.

Tusk is happy that talks can now go forward onto the UK's future relationship with the EU and trade. This will start next year. He said the easy part is now over and the hard part of the negotiations is about to begin.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> I thought you was Goblin for a moment :Hilarious
> Donald Trump moment.
> Jeremy Corbyn moment.
> 
> ...


I just thought if we got it out of the way it would save two and three quarter pages of Remaimers remoaming. And a further three and two third pages of Mrs May bashing.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> I just thought if we got it out of the way it would save two and three quarter pages of Remaimers remoaming. And a further three and two third pages of Mrs May bashing.


Well Mrs May has pulled it off, phase one in the bag in my opinion. Well done TM.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> I agree, but I can't imagine that happening for many a millennium. Or an alien invasion.
> 
> At the moment it just seems very dangerous if you follow United States through to it's conclusion. Whereas individual countries can only commit limited damage to the world as a whole.
> 
> We are so far off a United world at this moment in time, so it seems stupid to force it, let it come together organically is the way.


I don't disagree, and the Brexit vote confirmed that people in the UK are not yet ready to voluntarily take the next step. That's why I was so sad about the result.

But if - stretch though it may be! - you can look benignly on the EU, any move to a US of E is vulnerable to veto by any of the 27 members, so it wouldn't happen through force. And in the past, of course, that is where most empires sowed the seeds of their own downfall. Giving it a go has to be agreed by the majority of the people affected. It won't happen in my lifetime, but I hope that, while Brexit was a backward step, the movement to greater integration that we have seen for millennia will not stall for too long.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> You just need to look at the different tribes in Africa to know that will never be the case


I would not be so bold as to suggest that I know what will or won't _*ever*_ happen.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Tusk confirms discussions to take place on a 2 year transition period. *The UK must respect all EU laws and new laws in this period *and abide to them, the UK will remain in the Customs Union and Single Market in this period, the UK will meet all its budget responsibilities during this period, the UK will still leave the EU on Brexit day (March 2019) but will become like Norway - a third country meaning the UK will not have any say on any new EU laws. Tusk to request that remaining EU members to mandate that discussions are to begin as soon as possible on this with Michel Bernier, EU negotiators and UK negotiators and David Davis.
> 
> Tusk is happy that talks can now go forward onto the UK's future relationship with the EU and trade. This will start next year. He said the easy part is now over and the hard part of the negotiations is about to begin.


That's not going to go down well with the Tory Brexiteers.

I haven't seen anywhere, yet, whether Tusk thinks we should be able to negotiate trade deals during the transition period, but the tenor of the speech suggests that he thinks not. If so that will increase calls to walk away in 2019 without a deal.

Phase 2 is going to make phase 1 look easy!


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I would not be so bold as to suggest that I know what will or won't _*ever*_ happen.


I'm excited by your utopian vision of the future, but there are too many differences for us all to get on as one great big happy family. People were voluntarily in tribes long before land was carved up by borders


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't seen anywhere, yet, whether Tusk thinks we should be able to negotiate trade deals during the transition period,


Well that is something to be agreed in phase 2 next year (2018). That was always going to be a phase 2 negotiation. I like the way you are already rushing into phase 2 negotiation issues already 

Tusk did say the easy part is over, the hard part is about to begin.

Yes the option to walk away is still on the table.

Regarding the Customs Union and Single Market the whole of the UK will be leaving this but will be aligning itself to the rules of both of these so frictionless trade can carry on even if we crash out of the EU.

Gove seems to be happy.


> Gove: No weakening of N Ireland position in UK
> 
> On Northern Ireland, Gove says: "We're going to be outside the single market and outside the customs union as a result of this deal and the Prime Minister has made that perfectly clear.
> 
> ...





> Gove: UK courts in driving seat after Brexit
> 
> Environment Secretary and leading Brexiteer Michael Gove has been responding to the Brexit agreement.
> 
> ...


https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-live-is-theresa-may-close-to-a-breakthrough-11161105


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm excited by your utopian vision of the future, but there are too many differences for us all to get on as one great big happy family. People were voluntarily in tribes long before land was carved up by borders


They certainly were. It's how we started 200,000 years ago (or so), and our direct ancestors were the strongest and, presumably, the most aggressive of those tribes. But I hope that eventually we can grow as a species through an intellectually driven evolution that rejects the primitive instinct that 'others' are bad.

I won't hold my breath though!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Parts of the argreement on Ireland and Northern Ireland (UK):


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

@stockwellcat. Thanks for those.

It's going to get interesting, isn't it.

Rees-Mogg is insistent that the competitive advantage that will make Brexit commercially successful for the UK will stem from being able to diverge from EU rules and regulations, so the idea that we are going to align ourselves with those rules is going to be attacked by the Brexiteers.

On the other hand, if we do diverge from the EU, then we're immediately back to customs checks and hard borders.

I guess we all just get a supply of popcorn and wine, and watch!


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's a lies I tell you lies. There is still time to revoke article 50 and dismiss the non-binding opinion poll.
> 
> You bloody leavers will believe anything they tell you, it's fake news.
> 
> Mrs May will be out before Christmas.


Would be funny if it wasn't so sad. You still cannot come up with advantages to leaving can you which aren't based on lies and have a grounding in reality. At least May is continuing to attempt damage limitation.



> There, that's out the way now so we can move on, just like Brexit is.


No, we can cancel at any time until the end which will be when people actually know what they voted for.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> @stockwellcat. Thanks for those.
> 
> It's going to get interesting, isn't it.
> 
> ...


Well to me coming out of the Internal Market (as they have worded it) and Customs Union is the right thing to do because we are leaving the EU and it was sensible to align the Whole of the UK to the Internal Market and Customs Union rules so businesses have this clarification they need to continue trading as they do now instead of doing a mass exodus to the continent.

I agree it is going to get interesting both at home in the UK and in the negotiations in the EU next year.

The Brexitiers seem to be split in Parliament as Gove seems to be happy and Rees Mog not so. Will anything happen there, I think not. Many in Parliament will see TM as being able to pull this off now and back her in Parliament.

Yes plenty of wine and popcorn to hand


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@Arnie83 I think we are in for a rollercoaster ride for 9 and a half months next year (2018). The reason why I said that is because the next deadline is October 2018 which is when the remaining EU27 leaders want this wrapping up by so they can return to there Parliaments and agree or disagree on the final Brexit deal so the UK gets the green light to Brexit on the 29th March 2019.

I wonder if these dates will be deviated from? Who knows?

Roll on the next round


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

As if people didn't already know that NI born citizens are entitled to EU/ROI passports.

This makes me very angry indeed.

It will most certainly not stop there as NI are continued to be treated differently from the rest of the UK, (as I'm not NI born I'll be deprived of my EU citizenship from March 2019).

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rder-eu-theresa-may-juncker-tusk-markets-live


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> @Arnie83 I think we are in for a rollercoaster ride for 9 and a half months next year (2018). The reason why I said that is because the next deadline is October 2018 which is when the remaining EU27 leaders want this wrapping up by so they can return to there Parliaments and agree or disagree on the final Brexit deal so the UK gets the green light to Brexit on the 29th March 2019.
> 
> I wonder if these dates will be deviated from? Who knows?
> 
> Roll on the next round


The deadline may be October, but businesses will want to know what is going to happen in March 2019 long before then. I would say that most things will really have to be agreed by the end of March 2018 if we want to stop businesses implementing contingencies that will safeguard their EU trade. Calls by the more extreme Brexiteers to walk away - and there will be many of them - will make businesses increasingly nervous.

Starting .... Now!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> Parts of the argreement on Ireland and Northern Ireland (UK):
> 
> View attachment 335891
> 
> View attachment 335893


I somehow read point 1 without the Northern and got such a shock!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> As if people didn't already know that NI born citizens are entitled to EU/ROI passports.
> 
> This makes me very angry indeed.
> 
> ...


Clause 5 of the Ireland and Northern Ireland agreement:









The Northern Irish are entitled to an Irish Passport because they are on the Island of Ireland and a UK one because they are in the United Kingdom. No special status or rules there.

So I don't get why Krankie is kicking off to be honest.

The whole of the UK will be aligned to the Customs Union and Single Market rules but coming out of the Customs Union and Single Market.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> As if people didn't already know that NI born citizens are entitled to EU/ROI passports.
> 
> This makes me very angry indeed.
> 
> ...


No fear, they have pulled it with no explanation or apology. This is what comes up when you click on that article


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> As if people didn't already know that NI born citizens are entitled to EU/ROI passports.
> 
> This makes me very angry indeed.
> 
> ...


Now I have more time to look at this it's far from a done deal isn't it.

By the headline will NI citizens have a different passport to the rest of the UK unless of course this is just a reminder that NI citizens remain entitled to ROI/EU passports as we already knew? I'm surprised at the Guardian for a headline like that.

Or perhaps the final outcome will see the UK permanantly remaining in the SM and CU with all the benefits that entails.

I won't hold my breath but can only hope.

Whatever the outcome it will leave many dissatisfied whether you are a quit now no deal hard Brexiteer or a passionate European.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> No fear, they have pulled it with no explanation or apology. This is what comes up when you click on that article
> 
> View attachment 335905


Its called stiring the cauldron to stir up the remainers when there is not much to stir up.

They pulled it because they realised they were wrong.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> No fear, they have pulled it with no explanation or apology. This is what comes up when you click on that article
> 
> View attachment 335905


Well that bill is alot less that what has been quoted in recent weeks which estimated £50billion. If it is true that is less that is good for the UK tax payers.

I wonder if we will really know the true figure agreed upon or if it will be become public knowledge many years after Brexit happens?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that bill is alot less that what has been quoted in recent weeks which estimated £50billion. If it is true that is less that is good for the UK tax payers.
> 
> I wonder if we will really know the true figure agreed upon or if it will be become public knowledge many years after Brexit happens?


Just watching the BBC News - Kevin Connolly is saying that apparently it's not a lump sum, it's spread out over years to cover pensions etc.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Just watching the BBC News - Kevin Connolly is saying that apparently it's not a lump sum, it's spread out over years to cover pensions etc.


Not surprised to be honest. Nigel's (Farage) pension from the EU is set to be estimated at £73k per year which UK taxpayers will pay.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Not surprised to be honest. Nigel's (Farage) pension from the EU is set to be estimated at £73k per year which UK taxpayers will pay.


To be fair he's probably one of the few to actually earn it and stick to guns for years to achieve his goal, often in the face of ridicule. Without him there almost certainly wouldn't be Brexit.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Thank you Ireland from saving us from hurtling over the cliff edge.

*Fintan O'Toole: Ireland has just saved the UK from the madness of a hard Brexit*
 If the UK mirrors customs union, why bother leaving EU in the first place

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...-a-hard-brexit-1.3320096#.WipwOZYuvhw.twitter

So ...
_On sovereignty, UK will be subject to all EU law & supervision, without vote or exemption. On trade, if lucky we'll get some deals to trade in goods & services in some sectors, but not as good as SM or CU. We still pay though - what actually have we gained from leaving the EU?

_
Any brexiters care to answer_? 
_
The lunatic far right fringe aren't happy, these insidious individuals are so desperate to drag us out with 'no deal', they are out to get May now .


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@noushka05 to avoid getting into a heated debate all I can do is draw your attention to the hard facts and that is the official communication from the EU which outlines what has been discussed and agreed upon. This document is attached in pdf format and direct from the Europa website https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...dom-under-article-50-treaty-european-union_en

Again everyone has there own opinions but the facts are in the document just released.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 to avoid getting into a heated debate all I can do is draw your attention to the hard facts and that is the official communication from the EU which outlines what has been discussed and agreed upon. This document is attached in pdf format and direct from the Europa website https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...dom-under-article-50-treaty-european-union_en
> 
> Again everyone has there own opinions but the facts are in the document just released.


Please also find attached
*Joint technical note expressing the detailed consensus of the UK and EU positions on Citizens' Rights*
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...k-and-eu-positions-respect-citizens-rights_en


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 to avoid getting into a heated debate all I can do is draw your attention to the hard facts and that is the official communication from the EU which outlines what has been discussed and agreed upon. This document is attached in pdf format and direct from the Europa website https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...dom-under-article-50-treaty-european-union_en
> 
> Again everyone has there own opinions but the facts are in the document just released.


Thank you. I'm really not in the mood to have to read further pages of vitriole


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 to avoid getting into a heated debate all I can do is draw your attention to the hard facts and that is the official communication from the EU which outlines what has been discussed and agreed upon. This document is attached in pdf format and direct from the Europa website https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...dom-under-article-50-treaty-european-union_en
> 
> Again everyone has there own opinions but the facts are in the document just released.


And finally 
*Joint report from the negotiators of the European Union and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 TEU on the United Kingdom's orderly withdrawal from the European Union*

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...kingdoms-orderly-withdrawal-european-union_en


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Thank you.


My pleasure


> I'm really not in the mood to have to read further pages of vitriole


Nor am I


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cheers @stockwellcat.

(Me too lol ) >>>
_
I'm just waiting for Brexiters to entirely absorb the sentence "*in the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with the rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union"*. You really stuck it to those meddling Eurocrats, didn't you_.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Thank you. I'm really not in the mood to have to read further pages of vitriole


Kind of ironic, seeing as the worst of the social media vitrol seems to be coming from the Leave camp at the moment  Must have been taking lessons from Trump...

Logically and legally speaking, you've got to have either EU trade compliance or a hard border with full customs checks in Ireland (as the two are mutually exclusive), so this outcome was never really going to be anything else unless we want the situation in Ireland as a whole to go back to the times of the Troubles. And I can't see anyone with half a heart and an ounce of compassion wanting that.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is very sad.

EU citizens & British citizens in the EU say they _have been sold down the river in a grubby bargain_.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> Kind of ironic, seeing as the worst of the social media vitrol seems to be coming from the Leave camp at the moment  Must have been taking lessons from Trump...
> 
> Logically and legally speaking, you've got to have either EU trade compliance or a hard border with full customs checks in Ireland (as the two are mutually exclusive), so this outcome was never really going to be anything else unless we want the situation in Ireland as a whole to go back to the times of the Troubles. And I can't see anyone with half a heart and an ounce of compassion wanting that.


Oh gosh, I completely forgot I was in charge of the WHOLE leave social media campaign . I have steered clear of Twitter this morning, as I knew there would be unhappiness on both sides. But on your point, can we just look, on this thread, who is happy and who seems to be absolutely furious? If we take those results, I would suggest that the remainers are the most vitriolic.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh gosh, I completely forgot I was in charge of the WHOLE leave social media campaign . I have steered clear of Twitter this morning, as I knew there would be unhappiness on both sides. But on your point, can we just look, on this thread, who is happy and who seems to be absolutely furious? If we take those results, I would suggest that the remainers are the most vitriolic.


Hey, chill - or is joking about not allowed on this thread?  But on your point, being angry about something and being vitriolic are very different beasties.

If you prefer, though, I will remove the jest and leave only the second part of my post, as that was the serious comment


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Well Keir Starmer seems to be relatively pleased, so forgive me if I ignore various posts pasting random Twitter opinions of people who are Very Cross All The Time


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

As said before not everyone is going to like the outcomes but phase 1 is now done and dusted and won't be revisited once the EU27 agree to the draft agreement.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh gosh, I completely forgot I was in charge of the WHOLE leave social media campaign . I have steered clear of Twitter this morning, as I knew there would be unhappiness on both sides. But on your point, can we just look, on this thread, who is happy and who seems to be absolutely furious? If we take those results, I would suggest that the remainers are the most vitriolic.


Well, wouldn't you be angry if one sector of the UK was reportedly entitled to special concessions which didn't apply to the rest of the UK population?

This would anger many in both camps. The DUP are already reportedly making noises and NF isn't happy either.

If they are special arrangements agreed for NI I would want that too for those of us who treasure our EU citizenship within the rest of the UK.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Unless I'm missing something - and @noushka05 's quotes seem to confirm that I'm not - the ones who will be most happy are those who want a soft Brexit (assuming we have to have one at all).

Full alignment between NI & EU, to avoid the hard border in Ireland, and full alignment between NI & (rest of) UK means full alignment between UK & EU.

The EU aren't going to stop making new rules and regulations, and full alignment means that the UK will have to adopt them.

To all intents and purposes, we are in the single market and the customs union, which is what the soft Brexiters wanted.

Admittedly we are still told what to do by 'Brussels' and we don't have a say in the new rules. But what the hey!

That's why I don't think the Rees-Mogg / IDS extremists will stand for it. But let's see.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> As said before not everyone is going to like the outcomes but phase 1 is now done and dusted and won't be revisited once the EU27 agree to the draft agreement.


Hmmm.....


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Something else that appears to have been overlooked:


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@MiffyMoo the official Brexit fee was agreed at £40 billion.

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-live-is-theresa-may-close-to-a-breakthrough-11161105


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

14:10
European Parliament recommends Brexit progress

Guy Verhofstadt MEP, the chair of the European Parliament's Brexit steering group, says: "Our recommendation to the European Council is to go to phase two of the negotiations."


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

I must say I'm in shock at how some Remainers (not all, and even @Arnie83 and I kinda agreed on a point in this thread. Very tenuously related to Brexit mind!) seem to being spewing even greater vile posts towards Brexit, Mrs May etc. I dread to think how much further they will sink as Brexit approaches.

Think I'll leave you lot to it as reasoned debate and progressing the conversation as major changes happen doesn't look possible.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Don’t you think we’re all being played by a government who want to stay in the Eu? I would expect remainers to be very pleased with Mrs May. She couldn’t do a worse job of leaving the Eu if she tried and she seems to be trying very hard. To stay in.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> @MiffyMoo the official Brexit fee was agreed at £40 billion.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-live-is-theresa-may-close-to-a-breakthrough-11161105


Even then it may be actually less than that if you take into account the UK may well get money back as it's security for loans. When the loan is paid back, in theory and depending on agreements the security should be returned.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> seem to being spewing even greater vile posts towards Brexit


Once again.. can you actually provide advantages to leaving and arguments for Brexit based on reality ? Truth is often uncomfortable not vile.

Trouble May has is the country is divided. Brexit with various factions and those pushing to stay in the EU. It's internal Tory politics gone mad.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is so true.

Brexit
The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared
in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.


.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> Don't you think we're all being played by a government who want to stay in the Eu? I would expect remainers to be very pleased with Mrs May. She couldn't do a worse job of leaving the Eu if she tried and she seems to be trying very hard. To stay in.


I don't think we're being played, since May and her supporters have had to spend a lot of time and energy winning the battles within the Tory party against the Brextremists like IDS & co.

Having said that, she should never have triggered A50 until they had agreement within the govt. Even now they haven't even discussed what they want as an end point, let alone carried out the impact assessments to see what effects their decisions might have, which is frankly astonishing.

They should have thought about the Ireland problem; which was exactly as Major and Blair warned, but who they dismissed as part of 'project fear'.

She should never have called an election, though to be fair she probably didn't know she would be so appalling at campaigning.

I'm not pleased with her, but if we have to leave, this is at least a good step on the road to a softer Brexit than it might have been. But we're not going to get the benefits of the single market / customs union without more concessions and more money.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Elles said:


> Don't you think we're all being played by a government who want to stay in the Eu? I would expect remainers to be very pleased with Mrs May. She couldn't do a worse job of leaving the Eu if she tried and she seems to be trying very hard. To stay in.


As a passionate European I am far from happy. Better to admit the referendum was a farce and if they must be a re run let the general public find out for themselves without media interference. After all 98% of the media were pro leave and all leavers I personally know are Sun, Express and Mail readers.....

I don't agree this government want to stay in the EU. Far from it. They wanted their own way every step of the way but are beginning to realise that isn't going to happen.

The only news that would please me about Mrs May would be her resignation, not that I would expect any of her successors to be any better.

Most of the "British" public seem more interested in the forthcoming "Royal" wedding and the goings on in, "I'm a Celebrity" than Brexit.

Time for me to get selfish perhaps. This country can self destruct as far as I'm concerned. It'll be self inflicted.

As long as we are personally recognised as Citizens of Europe I no longer give a damn.

Still want out of the UK in 15 years time on retiring. Brexiteets may have made this more difficult but we'll cross that bridge when it comes.

One thing is for sure. I'll never convert to a Brexiteers' way of thinking.


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 335857
> 
> Great news.
> Significant progress has been made.
> ...


Isn´t it wonderful how the Brexit leaver think how wonderful it is that Britain can actually maintain a soft border btw Ireland and NI , beside the rights for EU citizens in UK and vica versa. If the negotiations proceed like this, you will find yourself having excatly the same benefits of EU, apart from the special position you had before. (your deal was better than ours e.g) 

So let me get this right: the best news actually was that UK will not have a hard border btw Ireland and NI, as that would have meant a considerable set back both financially and culturally (By this I mean the progress being made in NI politics).. Now I wonder when the rest of UK will want the same perks and start doing calculatiuons about what is the cheapest way to achieve this? (hint: to form an union, where all can share the costs and cut down the red tape as much as possible, and even have an area, when goods and people will be inspected only once) .

I wonder when the "good news" will be related to actual benefits of leaving EU? So far none have been presented, unless you think of the slogans "Britain wants to gain control (which it always had anyway) and NHS gets more money now etc. ".

Did you know, by the way, what has been May´s best asset so far? Apart Ireland bailing you out? May´s weakness, as EU is trying to strengthen her position so that there will be someone to have negotiations with before the agreed deadline closes down. You just can´t afford any changes now, and of we had used our strenght, May would have achieved nothing. But EU has still ideals and doesn´t want to bring UK into chaos. You yourself might do it, but that will be your doing. But for heavens sake, don´t let Boris and the idiots speak out loud. This is bad enough for you.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> I was only pointing out he did not say what he said in the context Open Britain made it out to be.





MiffyMoo said:


> Which would make them the manipulators


The mind of a con artist. This duplicitous liar should be prosecuted for the irreparable damage he & his cohorts have inflicted on this country.

*LBC's James O'Brien reads the magnificent deleted Daniel Hannan 2016 brexit article*





I
_
Daniel Hannan's opus "What Britain looks like after Brexit", written on Jun 20th 2016.
It is deranged science fiction stuff. 
It is completely bonkers.

https://archive.fo/CDBFf_


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Is the Guardian a better source?:
> 
> The EU's chief spokesman, Margaritis Schinas, said the talks would continue through the night. He tweeted:
> 
> ...


No the best sources for right wing brextremists are the Sun, Mail, Express, Telegraph, Westmonster, Guido Fawkes


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm.....
> View attachment 335944


I think your source of this information is completely wrong. This morning on the news it was revealed Arelene Foster had agreed to all the new text in the draft deal which gave the PM the green light to go to offer the deal to the EU. So the paper or your source of information your reading is spewing miss information on what actually happened as Arelene Foster is very happy with the new draft deal text but wants more clarification on a few issues.

The only opposition TM is going to get is from the hard Brexitiers in Parliament. But saying this Gove is happy with the deal and Boris seems to be OK about it. The hard brexitier MP's seem to be split in opinion on this. TM is doing a full statement on Monday in Parliament and you know what the majority of Parliament are behind her on this as they are happy with the deal.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> No the best sources for right wing brextremists are the Sun, Mail, Express, Telegraph, Westmonster, Guido Fawkes


Thank you for your unhelpful input. In fact I was more than happy to take the news from the Guardian. As previously stated, I don't read the Sun, Mail or Express, but that's an annoying little point for you, so gets ignored


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> No the best sources for right wing brextremists are the Sun, Mail, Express, Telegraph, Westmonster, Guido Fawkes


Sorry I don't read any of them but do occssionally see the odd article when googling Brexit News from the Telegraph that catches my attention.

To be honest everyone including the media have opinions as the people that write these articles are humans as well and are entitled to an opinion. Do I let any newspaper influence me or my decision making. No.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Once again.. can you actually provide advantages to leaving and arguments for Brexit?


Plenty of advantages and reasons have been given on many threads on here. But it's not my fault or other leavers fault that you or other remainers on here chose to ignore them because the reasons were not acceptable to you. All you are going to get is peoples opinions on a forum of any kind. Everyone has a different opinion (please read on as I do post about facts).


> Truth is often uncomfortable


Yes and that is why some remainers on here are still hoping that by posting the same thing over and over again on a petforum might change something. I don't think TM will be bothered to come on here nor any of her cabinet or anyone dealing with Brexit. They have the UK to run and have to prepare themselves for phase 2 of the negotiations to leave the EU. That is the reality of everything in the real world.

A compramise needs to be made, me thinks. We have 15 more months until we leave the EU and hopefully not 15 more months of going around in circles. I posted the facts about what happened yesterday, the documents released by the EU leaders. The newspapers speculate, so are people on twitter, facebook etc so are they a credible source of information, me thinks not, the documents released by the EU leaders yesterday are.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> A compramise needs to be made


Exactly! Is it exactly what I wanted? No, but there is absolutely no way of pleasing everyone; so the best route to go is to try and do it as peacefully as possible.

Sticking to the divorce analogy, it's better to have an amicable separation than demanding you get everything you want and then booting the cat on the way out. As my ex SIL discovered, the more you throw a tantrum, use sneaky tactics and demand more and more, the less you actually get


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Plenty of advantages and reasons have been given on many threads on here. But it's not my fault or other leavers fault that you or other remainers on here chose to ignore them because the reasons were not acceptable to you. All you are going to get is peoples opinions on a forum of any kind. Everyone has a different opinion (please read on as I do post about facts).


Ah you mean the ones which were from the leave campaign which have be shown to be false. The ones nobody believes as they weren't influenced by the leave campaign. Or do you mean you mean the others which have been shown not to stand up to reality and facts. Ah that's right.. we won the vote is what you revert back to or "we don't owe you an explanation".


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Exactly! Is it exactly what I wanted? No, but there is absolutely no way of pleasing everyone; so the best route to go is to try and do it as peacefully as possible.
> 
> Sticking to the divorce analogy, it's better to have an amicable separation than demanding you get everything you want and then booting the cat on the way out. As my ex SIL discovered, the more you throw a tantrum, use sneaky tactics and demand more and more, the less you actually get


I totally agree with you there.
The only people throwing tantrums at the moment and are unhappy with the deal on here are some remainers. Cabinet Ministers and back bencher MP's including the Hard Brexitier MP's are lining up to claim victory on phase 1 of the deal in Parliament on Monday according to the Guardian Newspaper reporter. I think the way the Government played this with the EU was the most sensible way.









@Goblin Parliament MP's even have their views to and are split but both sides are claiming a victory on the phase 1 deal. They speculated for more than 12 months of what Brexit would look like.


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think TM will be bothered to come on here nor any of her cabinet or anyone dealing with Brexit.


Good Morning @stockwellcat

Rest assured I and my cabinet do indeed read Pet Forums on a regular basis. We find it gives us a snapshot of the current feelings of the British population. I thank you for your continued support and rest assured Brexit negotiations are going as we expected. No one ever thought it would be easy. Keep your eye on the New Years honours 

@noushka05 I know who you are and where you live.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Theresa May PM said:


> Rest assured I and my cabinet do indeed read Pet Forums on a regular basis.


Excellent.

Perhaps you can explain how your Brexiteer back-benchers think - as in the post above yours - that the UK is going to walk away without a deal, trade on WTO rules, not treat Northern Ireland any differently from the rest of the UK, and yet still avoid a hard border in Ireland as you promised.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

> @Goblin Parliament MP's even have their views to and are split but both sides are claiming a victory on the phase 1 deal. They speculated for more than 12 months of what Brexit would look like.


But didn't you know what brexit was? Apparantly not, the referendum was based on people not having a clue. Brexit means brexit.

"Both sides claiming victory".. victory is an interesting word isn't it. Just what was won? Movement into phase 2 of the talks which we should have been into months ago.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> But didn't you know what brexit was? Apparantly not, the referendum was based on people not having a clue. Brexit means brexit.
> 
> "Both sides claiming victory".. victory is an interesting word isn't it. Just what was won? Movement into phase 2 of the talks which we should have been into months ago.


Ask TM herself if you have any questions. I am sure she will oblige to either reply or ignore. Apparently she posted on here above arnie's post.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> I totally agree with you there.
> The only people throwing tantrums at the moment and are unhappy with the deal on here are some remainers. Cabinet Ministers and back bencher MP's including the Hard Brexitier MP's are lining up to claim victory on phase 1 of the deal in Parliament on Monday according to the Guardian Newspaper reporter. I think the way the Government played this with the EU was the most sensible way.
> View attachment 336061
> 
> ...


I think that the very hard Brexiteers aren't terribly happy, but I think I would prefer something a bit more down the middle


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> I think that the very hard Brexiteers aren't terribly happy, but I think I would prefer something a bit more down the middle


Same here.

Hopefully as phase 2 negotiations happen next year a clearer picture of what Brexit will be will look clearer to everyone? I am very happy with how the result for phase 1 unfolded yesterday. I just wanted to make that clear.

To me it was a sensible move. Others may disagree, sorry I correct myself, do disagree with me.

But so far so good in my opinion.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

stockwellcat. said:


> Same here.
> 
> Hopefully as phase 2 negotiations happen next year a clearer picture of what Brexit will be will look clearer to everyone? I am very happy with how the result for phase 1 unfolded yesterday. I just wanted to make that clear.
> 
> ...


Ai, it'll be a cold day in hell before everyone agrees on something, but as long we remain civil about it....


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Excellent news. 
















Well done EU. 
Ahem, the argument, "We haven't left yet" no longer applies.....


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Excellent news.
> View attachment 336082
> View attachment 336083
> 
> ...


Well done EU for allowing the UK to benefit from this deal until our departure day as we are still a member of the EU until then


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well done EU for allowing the UK to benefit from this deal until our departure day which won't be until after the 2 year transition deal as we will be paying into the EU budget and reaping benefits from this deal and other EU deals. We officially become a 3rd country for 2 years after we leave the EU in 2019 so still get to benefit from any EU trade deals. Didn't you know that?


I'm not sure that's the case ...

Tusk has drafted guidelines on the transition period for the UK once it leaves on 29 March 2019 under which the UK will have to accept current and new EU laws, as well as the jurisdiction of the European court of justice, without having any seats in decision-making institutions.

*As it will no longer be an EU member, the UK will also fall out of the current free trade agreements the bloc has with countries around the world, and will need to come to an arrangement to avoid sudden obstacles to global British trade from 29 March 2019.*​
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...brexit-deal-but-eu-warns-of-trade-talk-delays


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not sure that's the case ...
> 
> Tusk has drafted guidelines on the transition period for the UK once it leaves on 29 March 2019 under which the UK will have to accept current and new EU laws, as well as the jurisdiction of the European court of justice, without having any seats in decision-making institutions.
> 
> ...


Thank's for the correction there. So that means we will still be trading with the EU and Japan under WTO then?

He's done this so the UK can get their own trade deals during the transition period.

Is the document available on the Europa website do you know? The only reason why I ask is because I'd prefer hard proof of this. I am noy saying the Guardian reporter is lying.

This deal will be like the EU withdrawal deal in prinicple and only a draft and up for negotiation and change.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Most of the "British" public seem more interested in the forthcoming "Royal" wedding and the goings on in, "I'm a Celebrity" than Brexit.


I'm not one jot, tittle or whit interested in either; nor do I have a TV set to watch either of them, even if I did want to, which I don't. (I'm British, by the way.)


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Theresa May PM said:


> @noushka05 I know who you are and where you live.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank's for the correction there. So that means we will still be trading with the EU and Japan under WTO then?
> 
> He's done this so the UK can get their own trade deals during the transition period.
> 
> ...


I haven't found it anywhere else, and I admit it hadn't occurred to me. But thinking about it, if we're out of the EU, out of the single market and the customs union then it makes sense that we are also out of the EU trade deals.

So yes, we will have to trade with Japan on WTO rules unless we can negotiate something different in the meantime. The challenge is that there are c. 60 free trade deals under which we trade as an EU member, and 15 months until we leave. Negotiating 4 trade deals a month alongside negotiating with the EU would be some effort. I don't know whether it is possible to make bilateral agreements to just carry on as now, but even if it was, I would certainly want to exploit the situation to my advantage if I was one of those 60.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't found it anywhere else, and I admit it hadn't occurred to me. But thinking about it, if we're out of the EU, out of the single market and the customs union then it makes sense that we are also out of the EU trade deals.
> 
> So yes, we will have to trade with Japan on WTO rules unless we can negotiate something different in the meantime. The challenge is that there are c. 60 free trade deals under which we trade as an EU member, and 15 months until we leave. Negotiating 4 trade deals a month alongside negotiating with the EU would be some effort. I don't know whether it is possible to make bilateral agreements to just carry on as now, but even if it was, I would certainly want to exploit the situation to my advantage if I was one of those 60.





Arnie83 said:


> I haven't found it anywhere else, and I admit it hadn't occurred to me. But thinking about it, if we're out of the EU, out of the single market and the customs union then it makes sense that we are also out of the EU trade deals.
> 
> So yes, we will have to trade with Japan on WTO rules unless we can negotiate something different in the meantime. The challenge is that there are c. 60 free trade deals under which we trade as an EU member, and 15 months until we leave. Negotiating 4 trade deals a month alongside negotiating with the EU would be some effort. I don't know whether it is possible to make bilateral agreements to just carry on as now, but even if it was, I would certainly want to exploit the situation to my advantage if I was one of those 60.


It would be possible to have a bilateral trade agreement with the EU, I do believe already many countries do have a bilateral trade agreement with the EU like:

Switzerland
Turkey
United States of America
Morocco
Canada
Japan
Russia
China
All these countries are classed as 3rd countries.

My source of information is from the Europa website and there is a full list on there: http://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/public-procurement/international/bilateral-non-eu_en

It would be sensible for the UK to trade bilaterally with the EU if they intend on the UK not having access to their free trade deals and it is possible to strike such a bilateral trade agreement within the next 15 months.

Yes phase 2 is going to be keeping them very busy in our Government and Parliament pushing through legislation, laws and negotiating with the EU.


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well done EU for allowing the UK to benefit from this deal until our departure day as we are still a member of the EU until then


The reason being that you still are a member and have agree to pay the fees + obey the EU legislation for the transition period. You just don´t have any say what the new laws will be like. Fair deal, still, as the benefits of EU outweigh the fees.

If you keep making these deals a bit longer with EU, you notice that nothing will actually change, apart the fact that most Brits will have a good idea what EU is all about, what are the perks, how much you pay and, then, you just might to say it openly, you want to be back and we will start Brexin - negotiations...


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> The reason being that you still are a member and have agree to pay the fees + obey the EU legislation for the transition period. You just don´t have any say what the new laws will be like. Fair deal, still, as the benefits of EU outweigh the fees.
> 
> If you keep making these deals a bit longer with EU, you notice that nothing will actually change, apart the fact that most Brits will have a good idea what EU is all about, what are the perks, how much you pay and, then, you just might to say it openly, you want to be back and we will start Brexin - negotiations...


Plenty of countries from outside of the EU trade with the EU through bilateral trade agreements and manage, I am sure the UK will as well. As I said above there is plenty of time in the next 15 months to get a bilateral trade agreement with the EU.

Don't let the rain clouds blur your vision as the UK will already meets the criteria to enter into a bilateral trade agreement with the EU.

The UK has agreed to pay £39 to £40 billion to leave the EU partnership yes. It is a far cry from the £66 billion the EU wanted.

I am sure phase 2 of the negotiations is going to be far more interesting, but I do believe it is done behind closed doors with the UK and EU so far less media coverage.


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Perhaps you can explain how your Brexiteer back-benchers think - as in the post above yours - that the UK is going to walk away without a deal, trade on WTO rules, not treat Northern Ireland any differently from the rest of the UK, and yet still avoid a hard border in Ireland as you promised.


Well how can I explain it.

Oh yes, if you think you can do a better job then bring it on sonshine.


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Plenty of countries from outside of the EU trade with the EU through bilateral trade agreements and manage, I am sure the UK will as well. As I said above there is plenty of time in the next 15 months to get a bilateral trade agreement with the EU.
> 
> Don't let the rain clouds blur your vision as the UK will already meets the criteria to enter into a bilateral trade agreement with the EU.
> 
> ...


Err, the negotiations are just starting and we have been very kind. Sure, there are many countries outside EU doing trade with us, but for some reason all find it just that bit easier to have one deal with EU instead of several contracts with individual countries. That makes the differences in profit margins and that is what companies are interested in. Naturally you will do business with all countries you want. You just pay a bit more or are happy wih having poorer quality, less consumer rights etc

And yes, 40 billion is less than 60, but far more than 0 or 10, what May wanted. And unike many of Brexiteers think, we do not want to destroy you. Eu is a friendly parner in comparison to US e.g.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Theresa May PM said:


> Well how can I explain it.
> 
> Oh yes, if you think you can do a better job then bring it on sonshine.


I definitely think I could do a better job.

But I suspect you are not the real thing - since I believe the actual Mrs May would be able to spell 'sunshine' - so I'll leave it there.


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2017)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 336154


I can see Brexin approaching ...


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 336154


Right this is what I don't get.

Some remainers wanted a softer brexit. We got a softer phase 1 agreement. Now the remainers aren't happy. It is you guys that are confusing.

I for one as I stated before am happy with phase 1 ended. It means we can move onto phase 2. Will the phase 1 agreement stay the same? Who knows? It is only a draft agreement and subject to change as phase 2 unfolds or if one member state isn't happy with something in it or if UK MP's aren't happy with something it can be negotiated and changed in phase 2.

So why are remainers bitter about getting a softer phase 1 deal? They wanted it and got it and are now not happy with it.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Theresa May PM said:


> Rest assured I and my cabinet do indeed read Pet Forums on a regular basis. We find it gives us a snapshot of the current feelings of the British population.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

....


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Right this is what I don't get.
> 
> Some remainers wanted a softer brexit. We got a softer phase 1 agreement. Now the remainers aren't happy. It is you guys that are confusing.
> 
> ...


I think the point is that nothing long-term has yet been agreed, and the softness of the transition period - where we still have single market and customs union benefits - is no guarantee that we will get that when we finally leave in (probably) 2021.

Indeed, Rees-Mogg has stated that economic benefits of leaving will only be realised through divergence from the EU. The odious IDS is consistently pushing for a no-deal Brexit. And Gove is now hinting that if the final agreement isn't to the liking of 'the People' - by whom he means people like him - it can easily be changed once they've got rid of May and replaced her with a little Englander.

There is little so far to be happy about, except the fact that we're still talking, and that NI has been promised both no hard EU border and no divergence from the UK, which makes divergence from the EU much harder unless May simply goes back on her word.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> I think the point is that nothing long-term has yet been agreed, and the softness of the transition period - where we still have single market and customs union benefits - is no guarantee that we will get that when we finally leave in (probably) 2021.


Well nothing long term yet can be agreed can it until all of the agreement has been agreed upon by every member state and the UK. The bill until then will remain a draft so amendments can be made. The deal is only half done. It is not complete yet. Negotiations in anything can be complex and take time.

Lets see the reaction in Parliament on Monday when TM debreifs Parliament. So far the majority of MP's are behind her on the outcome of phase 1 including I do believe Kier Starmer.

Are some remainers impatient?



> The odious IDS


Agree with you there.


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> I definitely think I could do a better job.
> 
> But I suspect you are not the real thing - since I believe the actual Mrs May would be able to spell 'sunshine' - so I'll leave it there.


Sonshine is a expression relating to family, it can also be used sarcastically and is totally different to Sunshine.

Have to leave it there as Philip is waiting for his jacket spuds with cheese and beans.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Theresa May PM said:


> Sonshine is a expression relating to family, it can also be used sarcastically and is totally different to Sunshine.
> 
> Have to leave it there as Philip is waiting for his jacket spuds with cheese and beans.


Thought you might have the champagne out with completing phase 1 and treating Philip to a posh meal somewhere and having a knees up party with the cabinet members. Don't forget to slap down Gove for his comments.


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Thought you might have the champagne out with completing phase 1 and treating Philip to a posh meal somewhere.


To bloody tired Mr Stockwellcat, been a long week.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Theresa May PM said:


> To bloody tired Mr Stockwellcat, been a long week.


Don't forget to give Arelene Foster a good telling off for interrupting your Christmas Party at Downing Street on Friday with the Ministers so she could tell you she was happy to go on with the deal and you had to dash to your constiuency to get some rest before heading to Brussels at 4am to seal the phase 1 deal.


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Don't forget to give Arelene Foster a good telling off for interrupting your Christmas Party on Friday with the Ministers so she could tell you she was happy to go on with the deal and you had to dash to your constiuency to get some rest before heading to Brussels at 4am to seal the phase 1 deal.


Arelene Foster is in my sights along with @noushka05 Keep your friends close and your enemies......


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well nothing long term yet can be agreed can it until all of the agreement has been agreed upon by every member state and the UK. The bill until then will remain a draft so amendments can be made. The deal is only half done. It is not complete yet. Negotiations in anything can be complex and take time.
> 
> Lets see the reaction in Parliament on Monday when TM debreifs Parliament. So far the majority of MP's are behind her on the outcome of phase 1 including I do believe Kier Starmer.
> 
> Are some remainers impatient?


Don't get me wrong, I am not unhappy with what's happened so far. In fact it's very encouraging. Staying aligned with EU regulations will (would) not only mitigate the economic damage that Brexit will do to the UK, but it may get people thinking 'What's the point of leaving if so little will change?'.

But I'm not going to start counting any chickens, especially when I can see so many obvious points of contention, mostly within the Tory party.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Theresa May PM said:


> Sonshine is a expression relating to family, it can also be used sarcastically and is totally different to Sunshine.


From Google

*sunshine*
ˈsʌnʃʌɪn/
_noun_*1*.

direct sunlight unbroken by cloud, especially over a comparatively large area.
"we walked in the warm sunshine"
synonyms: sunlight, sun, sun's rays, sunbeams, daylight, light of day, natural light, light
"we'll relax in the sunshine for a while"
.

*BRITISH informal
used as a friendly or sometimes threatening form of address.*
"hand it over, sunshine"


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> From Google
> 
> *sunshine*
> ˈsʌnʃʌɪn/
> ...


son shine
A expression of brotherly love, often a suffix to salutation but not always


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Therea May MP I have a serious complaint . Can you not fly off at 4 in the morning in a plane that sound as loud as Concorde and wake the whole neighbourhood? 

Take Eurostar next time. It will save the tax payer loads of dosh .


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Theresa May PM said:


> To bloody tired Mr Stockwellcat, been a long week.


Get your act together, love.

And your grammar.

It happens to be 'Too bloody tired'

Too, as in to a higher degree than desired

Excessive, Inordinately, Unreasonably.

To, a motion in the direction of...........


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Zaros said:


> Get your act together, love.
> 
> And your grammar.
> 
> ...


I'm to/too bloody tired to be bothered.


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> @Therea May MP I have a serious complaint . Can you not fly off at 4 in the morning in a plane that sound as loud as Concorde and wake the whole neighbourhood.
> 
> Take Eurostar next time. It will save the tax payer loads of dosh .


That's a good point and I've purchased a Tesla for quiet travel in the future. And will indeed take Eurostar (soon to be know as Britishstar).


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I have a serious question for you @Theresa May PM

Do you still maintain that running through a field of wheat was the naughtiest thing you ever did?

What about robbing the poor, the disabled and the elderly?

Would you not consider there to be slightly more mischief in conniving and theft?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> but it may get people thinking 'What's the point of leaving if so little will change?'.


Nah. Not me at least.

The majority of MP's will be behind @Theresa May PM on Monday wanting to get on with preparing for phase 2 for next year.

Lets not eat our cake before it is ready. Alot can happen in 15 months btw.

You don't honestly think that all this work that has been done will suddenly be given up because a few people still oppose everything that has happened? Me thinks not.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Theresa May PM said:


> That's a good point and I've purchased a Tesla for quiet travel in the future. And will indeed take Eurostar (soon to be know as Britishstar).










If i were a conservative voter , I would vote for you .


----------



## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Zaros said:


> I have a serious question for you @Theresa May PM
> 
> Do you still maintain that running through a field of wheat was the naughtiest thing you ever did?
> 
> ...


Ok being totally honest now, no running through a field wasn't the naughtiest thing I did. It was actually giving William Hague a blow job whilst in the shadow cabinet in the late 90's.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Theresa May PM said:


> Ok being totally honest now, no running through a field wasn't the naughtiest thing I did. It was actually giving William Hague a blow job whilst in the shadow cabinet in the late 90's.


Really?

Well my sources tell me different.

According to recent intelligence leaks, I've been informed that you've encouraged the boys in the back room to run a train on you, including the big fat controller, Boris Blobby Johnson.
Phil your cuckold is he?:Wacky


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Zaros said:


> Really?
> 
> Well my sources tell me different.
> 
> ...


I also know who you are and where you live.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Theresa May PM said:


> I also know who you are and where you live.


Really.

Well, here's a little something that might warrant a little serious consideration.
Be careful what you post because it could quite easily be misconstrued as a threat.

Mate!


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Theresa May PM said:


> son shine
> A expression of brotherly love, often a suffix to salutation but not always




There's another member on here who doesn't appreciate when to give up the argument, though they haven't resorted to obscure urban dictionaries that I would be surprised to find Mrs May using.

But I think I'll rest my case on this one.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Nah. Not me at least.
> 
> The majority of MP's will be behind @Theresa May PM on Monday wanting to get on with preparing for phase 2 for next year.
> 
> ...


Well it's certainly possible, except that those people are IDS, Mogg, Gove, Bone, Redwood, etc. They are still longing for a cliff edge, no deal Brexit.

Though 'all this work' doesn't appear to me to be a whole hill of beans in the last 18 months. No impact assessments, not even - unbelievably - a _discussion_ on where we want to end up. You'd have thought they'd have learned by now not to rush into something without even considering the end game. It just shows that the extreme Brexiteers are pursuing a primitive tribal ideology with no thought for the population of the country they purport to 'love'.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> a _discussion_ on where we want to end up.


I do believe that Cabinet and the PM are going to have this discussion before the end of this year (2017).

Perhaps this discussion was reserved for after phase 1 because was there any point in having it before the end of phase 1 because up until yesterday morning we didn't even know this was going to be completed.

Now the focus will be on the end game so to speak.

Regarding the impact studies, I 'll reserve my thoughts on this if you don't mind.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Zaros said:


> Really.
> 
> Well, here's a little something that might warrant a little serious consideration.
> Be careful what you post because it could quite easily be misconstrued as a threat.
> ...


I thought you were renowned for your sense of humour. Apparently not.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> There's another member on here who doesn't appreciate when to give up the argument, though they haven't resorted to obscure urban dictionaries that I would be surprised to find Mrs May using.
> 
> But I think I'll rest my case on this one.


I'm down with the kids ain't I  Got to get that Corbyn vote back.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Theresa May PM said:


> different to


While we are about it, @Zaros, let's remind her it should be 'different FROM' and not 'different TO'. (Just saying.)
Different from; similar to.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Theresa May PM said:


> I also know who you are and where you live.


So? _Everyone_ knows where you live.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I think @Theresa May PM has had to much bubbly :Wacky celebrating a bit to early as the deal isn't done yet.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Calvine said:


> So? Everyone knows where _you_ live.


Oh crap.....


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Calvine said:


> While we are about it, @Zaros, let's remind her it should be 'different FROM' and not 'different TO'. (Just saying.)
> Different from; similar to.


I'm Prime Minister not a lowly overpaid English teacher.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Calvine said:


> So? _Everyone_ knows where you live.


I have printed out a mass of letters saying the same thing and put them in envelopes:

*Stop Dithering And Get On With It.

I Pay Your Wages As A UK Taxpayer.

You Don't Deserve To Have Christmas This Year.

You Have Wasted Enough Time & Money On Phase 1.
*
Letters are ready to be sent. :Hilarious

Are you ready for a mass amount of post through your letter box @Theresa May PM? :Hilarious


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

Ok, I confess I'm not actually your PM but just @stockwellcat. having a laugh


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Theresa May PM said:


> Ok, I confess I'm not actually your PM but just @stockwellcat. having a laugh


No your not.

Don't get me in trouble for your spew you trouble maker you :Finger

Right you are going on block for good @Theresa May PM and your real user name to @D* ******.

Yes I know who you are.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> No your not.
> Don't get me in trouble for your spew :Finger
> 
> Right you are going on block for good @Theresa May PM and your real user name @D* ******.


That should be "you're" not "your"


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Theresa May PM said:


> That should be "you're" not "your"


Dead give away  correcting my grammar.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I just want to make it abundantly clear this person is not me: @Theresa May PM they are trying to get me a ban by saying I was them. unch :Stop

Check their IP and you will uncover who they are mods.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> I just want to make it abundantly clear this person is not me: @Theresa May PM they are trying to get me a ban by saying I was them. unch :Stop
> 
> Check their IP and you will uncover who they are mods.


Hoping mods see it's just a bit of fun. If not I'll come clean and reveal I'm really @noushka05


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

stockwellcat. said:


> Dead give away  correcting my grammar.


I'm not @Theresa May PM, honest!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

FeelTheBern said:


> I'm not @Theresa May PM, honest!


No you're not I can vouch for you there.

Mod should be able to tell from IP address who it is and it certainly isn't me.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

FeelTheBern said:


> I'm not @Theresa May PM, honest!


Bet you've never said that before


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> No you're not I can vouch for you there.
> 
> Mod should be able to tell from IP address who it is and it certainly isn't me.


It's not you.

Ooh felt like Ant or Dec there.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Theresa May PM said:


> Arelene Foster is in my sights along with @noushka05 Keep your friends close and your enemies......





Theresa May PM said:


> Hoping mods see it's just a bit of fun. If not I'll come clean and reveal I'm really @noushka05


Well as its my account I'm going to ask the mods to delete it:Smuggrin

(@Satori? )

.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Theresa May PM said:


> Ok being totally honest now, no running through a field wasn't the naughtiest thing I did. It was actually giving William Hague a blow job whilst in the shadow cabinet in the late 90's.


 Now that's what I call naughty !


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Who else had a blowjob in the late nineties? In fact, I think he had several.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Well as its my account I'm going to ask the mods to delete it:Smuggrin
> 
> (@Satori? )
> 
> .


Being identified was with Theresa May is only slightly better than being identified with Jeremy Corbyn in my book. If I had my druthers they would both swing. (And I don't mean swap partners with their neighbours).


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Well who the hell is it then?:Jawdrop Come on, own up.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Well who the hell is it then?:Jawdrop Come on, own up.


Let's make a deduction here. We know it isn't the following people:

@noushka05
@stockwellcat.
@FeelTheBern
@Satori
@kimthecat
@Calvine
@Arnie83 
Who else has contributed to this thread who would have the mindset to do this (sorry I wasn't implying any of the above people would even consider doing this, so please don't get offended)?

Edited to add Arnie on the list.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Let's make a deduction here. We know it isn't the following people:
> 
> @noushka05
> @stockwellcat.
> ...


Ok you've got me, I'm @Arnie83


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@Theresa May PM 


Think you've had one to many to drink


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2017)

Am I the only one, who dislikes trolls and people hiding behind alter egos? To me that is just


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


>


You just edited your list


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Theresa May PM said:


> You just edited your list


You're trolling now.
It's not funny anymore.


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## Theresa May PM (Dec 9, 2017)

MrsZee said:


> Am I the only one, who dislikes trolls and people hiding behind alter egos? To me that is just


Well if you believed the PM was a member of a pet forum!!!

It's a laugh and has actually brought both sides together for a bit of fun.

Yes it's me @MrsZee


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Sorry @noushka05 I am leaving your thread.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> You're trolling now.
> It's not funny anymore.


Didn't mean to be trolling, thought it was a bit fun.

But yes I'm @Theresa May PM

So ban me and no one else.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

stockwellcat. said:


> Let's make a deduction here. We know it isn't the following people:
> 
> @noushka05
> @stockwellcat.
> ...


There are not really that many in total posting if you glance thro' since the beginning. Strange.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I imagine a mod will ban Theresa May before long, @stockwellcat. as it's starting to wind people up, so maybe hang around a while?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2017)

Theresa May PM said:


> Well if you believed the PM was a member of a pet forum!!! It's a laugh and has actually brought both sides together for a bit of fun. Yes it's me @MrsZee


The joke seems to be always on others, not on you. Good that you admitted, who you were, thoughn in the end. Zaros actually told that earlier to me, as you are true to your style.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Didn't mean to be trolling, thought it was a bit fun.
> 
> But yes I'm @Theresa May PM
> 
> So ban me and no one else.


 i thought it funny myself but perhaps time to stop .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> Let's make a deduction here. We know it isn't the following people:
> 
> @noushka05
> @stockwellcat.
> ...


 How do you know it wasn't me ?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> How do you know it wasn't me ?


Maybe tonight is the mods' Christmas party and they are getting their own back for all the crap they get during the year! Would you blame them?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> But yes I'm @Theresa May PM


And there was me thinking you was








Just shows how I can be so wrong some times if you are @Theresa May PM in real life. :Smuggrin


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Theresa May PM said:


> Hoping mods see it's just a bit of fun. If not I'll come clean and reveal I'm really @noushka05


You're Dr Pepper. And having multiple accounts is against forum rules.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 336310


Of course the homeless won't notice.

Tories think homeless people are either drunk, drugged up or can't read anyway.


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