# Buying a pedigree.



## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Hi all

Newbie here, but I've been lurking on the forum for the past 3 months just hanging back and reading through all the threads (trying to soak in as much information as possible!).

Basically, we're buying two siberian kittens and I just want to know what papers I should ask the Breeder for. There is a clause in the contract which states I will get the pedigree papers after neutering, but are there other registration papers I should expect to receive when I make final payment and collect them?

The breeder is a member of The Siberian Cat Club so I'm sure everything is above board (hoping so!). Although I'm buying them as family pets I am curious about showing them when they are older as I am sure they will be beautiful!  So I want to make sure I have everything I need if we decided to. i.e. Do the papers need to be in my name? Can I ask for them to be in my name when I collect them or do I need to sort that after I get them spayed?

So in short what papers should I expect to recieve when I collect them?
And, what papers in whos name if I wanted to enter them in cat shows?

If anyone has any information to share that would be amazing, thank you!

Here's a pic, we collect them in June 










The photo doesn't seem to be appearing for me so here is the link as well:


__
https://flic.kr/p/6948519032


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I really really wish people wouldn't do this, and that the GCCF would crack down on it - if people are so concerned that the kitten is not bred from why not early neuter?

The law of the land requires that the pedigree certificate must be produced for a pedigree kitten - that is, after all, what pedigree means. The ONLY thing that can be withheld is the transfer form and then only if you agree in writing. Yes you will certainly need the papers if you want to show. 

In your case, you need the pedigree certificate and the vaccination certificate, plus something in writing that says that the transfer form will be sent on once the breeder has proof of neutering. If the breeder wants to withhold anything else, my advice would be to go elsewhere.

Liz


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

If I was buying a pedigree kitten, here is what I would expect to receive - as well as the kitten, of course:

Pedigree certificate showing all registration names and numbers of ancestry - at least three generations
Vaccination card from vet showing when kitten was vaccinated and with what vaccinations
GCCF or TICA papers proving the kitten is registered

Concerning the retention of registration papers - if you plan to show your kitten, you will need to fill out a form similar to this

http://www.gccfcats.org/Schedules/bristol&dist12entryform.pdf

NB: see Declaration 3 a) "I/we am/are the registered owner/s of the cats and/or kittens named on this form and I/we agree
to be bound by and submit to the Constitution and Rules of the Governing Council of the Cat
Fancy presently in force and to any additional rules formulated specifically for this show,
provided only that the latter do not conflict with the former. And/or I/we shall have applied for
registration/transfer at least 21 days before the show."

The information you need to complete the application form will be on your cat's pedigree certificate. You will need the registration / transfer paper.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Does the breeder know you want to show? If not, discuss it with them. Not all kittens are show quality. As to showing 'later' - sooner is better. Kittens usually take new experiences in their stride, older cats often don't like them.

And yes, the kittens have to be transfered into your name for you to show them. You also have to enter cat shows 6 weeks in advance, so not getting the transfer until the kittens are neutered limits when you can first show them.

I did show a kitten the breeder had entered before I brought her. Can't remember who paid what. However asking the breeder to do the entry and sending them the entry fee might be the way to go if you want to show a young kitten or kittens. Ideally the breeder will come along and help you with all the show stuff.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> plus something in writing that says that the transfer form will be sent on once the breeder has proof of neutering


It has to be agreed in writing by both parties so for the breeder to be acting within the rules they need the buyer's signature to such an agreement.

I've never seen the point to withholding documents in this manner. If a kitten buyer is going to breed from a cat on the non active register they aren't going to give two hoots whether they have the registration slip as they can't register any kittens anyway. All other paperwork, including a pedigree certificate showing registration numbers for at least 3 generations must be provided at the time of sale. A great many pet buyers never bother transferring the kitten into their own name with the GCCF anyway. It's an extra expense which is completely unnecessary unless they want to show in breed classes.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> It has to be agreed in writing by both parties so for the breeder to be acting within the rules they need the buyer's signature to such an agreement.


Yes, that's true.



> I've never seen the point to withholding documents in this manner. If a kitten buyer is going to breed from a cat on the non active register they aren't going to give two hoots whether they have the registration slip as they can't register any kittens anyway.


Exactly. Completely pointless as far as I can see. All that happens is they advertise them as pedigree and then quietly mention that there are no papers, usually "because they are only for pets" (code for "because I should not have bred them in the first place"). Personally I have always taken the line that if someone is going to breed from one of my cats I would far rather know about it.

How you educate the buying public about this is another question entirely. Just about every week on here we see some new owner convinced that their pretty moggy has to be a pedigree. My own mother, who really ought to know better since after all I am her daughter, was most insistent at one point that her moggy, son of her moggy and sired by who knows what local tom, had to be pedigree because he had such a shiny coat. First he was British, then he was a York Chocolate(!) - she really did seem to believe that this was how it worked. Odd, isn't it!



> All other paperwork, including a pedigree certificate showing registration numbers for at least 3 generations must be provided at the time of sale. A great many pet buyers never bother transferring the kitten into their own name with the GCCF anyway. It's an extra expense which is completely unnecessary unless they want to show in breed classes.


That is also my experience. It's a good thing GCCF realise this otherwise they would think I had hundreds of cats!

Liz


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

From a buyers point of view, I would be really irked if my chosen breeder did this to me. It makes me think there is a lack of trust.

I appreciate that a breeder is only trying to look after their own bloodlines but as someone else is pointed out - if someone is going to breed from their pedigree in this way then they don't need those certificates because none of it is above board and as it should be anyway. The type of person not willing to pay for a pedigree but still wanting one will know exactly why their kitten doesn't come with a certificate and deserves everything that comes with that. I think for breeders this must be so infuriating.

Claude came with his certificate, his pink slip, his pkd blood tests (I think thats what they are called) and genetics etc. The only thing mentioned about neutering was some advice on how long to leave it to make sure his jowls come through as big as possible. 

Anyone not giving me my pedigree certificate with my kitten would make me question wether or not they were the breeder for me.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It's a good thing GCCF realise this otherwise they would think I had hundreds of cats!


You can pay for a list of cats registered to you. Every now and then when I see it on the price list I wonder about doing it but the thought soon passes 

Everybody seems to forget that the other piece of paper which should be included for GCCF registered kittens is a copyof the Code of Ethics.


> 11. Breeders/owners must ensure that all relevant Governing Council of the Cat Fancy documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring a cat in accordance with Rule 10 (see below), including a copy of this code.


The first line of which says


> Registered owners of all GCCF registered cats/kittens accept the jurisdiction of The Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and undertake to abide by this general code of ethics.


Withholding transfer slips therefore encourages new owners to remain outwith the jurisdiction of the GCCF as they can't become the registered owner.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes it is infuriating. It upsets some breeders a lot more than others of course because we all have different temperaments. The one that most angered me, and still does, was the woman who got a pedigree cat from me, unregistered - now that was my fault, there was a reason and the kitten was sold for £50 so not exactly a pedigree price. A year later she came back for another, the opposite sex. Yes I should have heard the warning bells. 

Next thing I heard she was breeding them (not really the best thing as they were half-siblings), then she was selling the kittens for far more than I ever got, wouldn't let me come to see the kittens because of fears of infection (she said), then got in touch and asked if my cats could possibly have FeLV because her kittens all had bad eyes and someone had suggested FeLV (goodness knows why). She tested the boy for FeLV and FIV - both negative - and advertised the kittens as fine and healthy (despite having told me they were all ill), still wouldn't let me see them. By this time she had had two or three litters, sold the girl on, got another one (also from me, sold to her mother, before I realised what was going on, I must have "mug" written on my face).

After this she started cross-breeding the boy with a British she had acquired from someone else, again trhese kittens were being sold for more than my pedigrees (at least, she tried, she was in the habit of reducing the porice every week if they didn't sell) and then eventually she put the boy up for sale, as a stud cat, no registration (she did have the pedigree, but no mating certicate, Mum was unregistered at the time though I did register her later), for £500(!) At that point I contacted her and asked if I could buy him back - I was even prepared to pay that ridiculous price. She said she had changed her mind and was now not going to sell him. So I said, if she was going to carry on breeding from him, why didn't I register him so that she could do it properly. In order to register his kittens he needed an entirety certificate so I did need her co-operation. She replied that he didn't need to be registered.

Shortly after this, she started advertising him again, the price going down and down. And this time she put in a line saying that he was only available to the right home, which I took as a deliberate snub to me (and a damn cheek considering what she had been doing, not to mention the fact that because I delivered the kittens to her, she never actually saw my house). She wouldn't reply to message from me and of course I had to give up. Eventually she sold him, neutered, so I hope he got a nice pet home.

As you can imagine, I really did feel kicked in the teeth.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> You can pay for a list of cats registered to you. Every now and then when I see it on the price list I wonder about doing it but the thought soon passes


I did that a few years aog. It was interesting, there was one litter I had completely forgotten about!



> Everybody seems to forget that the other piece of paper which should be included for GCCF registered kittens is a copyof the Code of Ethics.
> 
> Withholding transfer slips therefore encourages new owners to remain outwith the jurisdiction of the GCCF as they can't become the registered owner.


Yes, all very true.

Liz


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

I've been looking at Siberians, too and this business of withholding documents until proof of neutering has cropped up a lot in my search, not only for cats in the UK, but also over here in Italy. It's really interesting to know this is not standard practice, even if it seems to be quite common practice! Thanks so much for the insight, The info you've provided (Liz, Havoc, Ra...) will certainly make me consider my options carefully when we decide what kind of cat we're going to get.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It's really interesting to know this is not standard practice, even if it seems to be quite common practice!


It's crept in from the US where there are different systems and consumer laws. Very much a case of 'monkey see, monkey do' and counter productive for GCCF registered kittens.


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## Siberiancat (Apr 8, 2012)

I have a 7 month old siberian cat. My breeder said i wouldnt get the papers until i proved he was neutered . He was last week so my breeder is sending them out to me. Gorgeous kittens btw


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My breeder said i wouldnt get the papers until i proved he was neutered


What 'papers' were withheld?
Out of interest, do you intend showing this this cat? You were obviously happy to pay for him without getting at least some of the paperwork so why is it important to you to have them now?


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## Siberiancat (Apr 8, 2012)

The pedigree papers. All i got with him was a vaccination card.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

lizward said:


> Yes it is infuriating. It upsets some breeders a lot more than others of course because we all have different temperaments. The one that most angered me, and still does, was the woman who got a pedigree cat from me, unregistered - now that was my fault, there was a reason and the kitten was sold for £50 so not exactly a pedigree price. A year later she came back for another, the opposite sex. Yes I should have heard the warning bells.
> 
> Next thing I heard she was breeding them (not really the best thing as they were half-siblings), then she was selling the kittens for far more than I ever got, wouldn't let me come to see the kittens because of fears of infection (she said), then got in touch and asked if my cats could possibly have FeLV because her kittens all had bad eyes and someone had suggested FeLV (goodness knows why). She tested the boy for FeLV and FIV - both negative - and advertised the kittens as fine and healthy (despite having told me they were all ill), still wouldn't let me see them. By this time she had had two or three litters, sold the girl on, got another one (also from me, sold to her mother, before I realised what was going on, I must have "mug" written on my face).
> 
> ...


Lizwizard what an awful woman!! I can't believe she got her mother to get ANOTHER kitten from you - hideous and so incredibly dishonest.


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## Siberiancat (Apr 8, 2012)

No i dont intend on showing him. And its not that i wasnt bothered about getting them but as my breeder said she would withhold until neutered now i would like them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The pedigree papers. All i got with him was a vaccination card.


If this is a GCCF registered kitten then the breeder is in breach of the rules. They MUST supply the pedigree certificate even if they withhold the registration document. There is no option for mutual consent with the properly completed pedigree cert.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

lizward said:


> Yes it is infuriating. It upsets some breeders a lot more than others of course because we all have different temperaments. The one that most angered me, and still does, was the woman who got a pedigree cat from me, unregistered - now that was my fault, there was a reason and the kitten was sold for £50 so not exactly a pedigree price. A year later she came back for another, the opposite sex. Yes I should have heard the warning bells.
> 
> Next thing I heard she was breeding them (not really the best thing as they were half-siblings), then she was selling the kittens for far more than I ever got, wouldn't let me come to see the kittens because of fears of infection (she said), then got in touch and asked if my cats could possibly have FeLV because her kittens all had bad eyes and someone had suggested FeLV (goodness knows why). She tested the boy for FeLV and FIV - both negative - and advertised the kittens as fine and healthy (despite having told me they were all ill), still wouldn't let me see them. By this time she had had two or three litters, sold the girl on, got another one (also from me, sold to her mother, before I realised what was going on, I must have "mug" written on my face).
> 
> ...


why didnt you contact her and ask her for neutering proof when the kitten was 6 months old?  and didnt you ask her if the kitten was neutered when she bought another one? Wasnt they sold with contracts? Havent you advised her about silbling matings??



Siberiancat said:


> I have a 7 month old siberian cat. My breeder said i wouldnt get the papers until i proved he was neutered . He was last week so my breeder is sending them out to me. Gorgeous kittens btw


Ive only found that good breeders who care alot withhold it as without papers the cat could be a cross so if they were to breed it they wouldnt get more money for the kittens as they cant prove what breed it is, I tihnk its good and new owner should sign neutering contracts, even better good breeders should neuter before they leave


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

How would a breeder neuter the kittens before they go to their new homes when they leave, on average at 13 weeks?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Aurelie said:


> How would a breeder neuter the kittens before they go to their new homes when they leave, on average at 13 weeks?


Some vets will neuter that young. My own will neuter at 16 weeks and that isn't too much longer to keep the kittens if necessary. I haven't found it to be so as yet but you never know - some people come across as very genuine but could be the biggest liars :nonod:
I was only discussing it with the owner of the stud I use the other day. She had just taken back a female cat that was in call and the owner couldn't cope with the noise because she was pregnant. The cat hadn't been neutered because they had decided to let her have just one litter : The stud owner has been breeding cats for many years so experience doesn't always tell you who the 'genuine' buyers are.
I don't think witholding the registration papers is any answer either.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Aurelie said:


> How would a breeder neuter the kittens before they go to their new homes when they leave, on average at 13 weeks?


kittens can be neutered from 8 weeks of age, breeders tend to do it at 10-12weeks so kittens are ready at 13-14weeks, read the sticky above


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Aurelie said:


> How would a breeder neuter the kittens before they go to their new homes when they leave, on average at 13 weeks?


Early neutering - my vet will do them at 10 - 11 weeks if they are over 1kg.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Sort of don't see the point in holding back the papers - if they are going to breed from them they will with or without papers. And even with they still can't register - OR early neuter - it's becoming much more common place.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catlove844 said:


> why didnt you contact her and ask her for neutering proof when the kitten was 6 months old?


Why would I? I never do that. What could I possibly do if they said no, apart from moan?



> and didnt you ask her if the kitten was neutered when she bought another one?


No, now that was indeed a mistake. Of course she coudl easily have lied.



> Wasnt they sold with contracts?


No, I don't do restrictive contracts. No point, even if you won in court all you would get would be financial damages and how would you ever prove you had made a loss because the new owner bred the cats?



> Havent you advised her about silbling matings??


Well, it was a bit late once the deed was done. Fortunately they were only half sibs which is a mating many breeders do anyway.

Liz



> Ive only found that good breeders who care alot withhold it as without papers the cat could be a cross so if they were to breed it they wouldnt get more money for the kittens as they cant prove what breed it is, I tihnk its good and new owner should sign neutering contracts, even better good breeders should neuter before they leave


There is no breaking a surgical contract, that is true. For the rest, a pedigree cat must have proof that it is a pedigree. If I ever have cause to sell a pedigree cat without even the pediugree, I take care to word the ad accordingly, such as "if pedigree, he would be a .... but by law I am not allowed to describe him as such because there are no papers"

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> The cat hadn't been neutered because they had decided to let her have just one litter : The stud owner has been breeding cats for many years so experience doesn't always tell you who the 'genuine' buyers are.


At the risk of climbing on my soapbox again, I think many breeders forget what it was like to first be in the world of pedigree cats. Look at it from the buyer's point of view, they paid what to them seems like a huge sum of money for a pedigree kitten, they don't want to go into breeding as a business (they are totally convinced we make vast sums of money from it so naturally they think of breeders as being businesses), but they love their new baby and they think that it would be wonderful to have a litter, and since they really do only ever intend to have that one litter, they really can't see why they should be expected to pay the active register price when they only want a litter of lovely kittens in order to keep one as a pet and perhaps pass others on to their family or friends. I honestly think that in most cases it isn't a matter of trying to be dishonest at all, they genuinely see a huge chasm between a breeder and a person who wants just one litter.

My own approach when selling a female is "I am assuming you don't want to breed. However if you do decide you want a litter, please get in touch and do it properly, I will help you" or "This kitten really must not be used for breeding because ... are you absolutely clear about that and do you understand that you must have her spayed because if you don't (description of likely problems)" So far I have never been taken up on the offer but I would much prefer, if someone is going to breed from one of my cats, that it was done properly and that I knew about it.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Ive only found that good breeders who care alot withhold it as without papers the cat could be a cross so if they were to breed it they wouldnt get more money for the kittens as they cant prove what breed it is


I don't quite know how to put this so everbody can understand as it's obviously not getting through -
*a breeder selling GCCF registered kittens cannot withhold anything except the transfer slip and only then with the written consent of the buyer*
If they do not hand over a properly completed pedigree certificate at the time of sale they are in breach of rule 10a


> 10a When a cat or kitten is advertised or sold as a pedigree cat or kitten, the breeder shall, at the time of sale, provide the purchaser with a properly completed pedigree signed by the breeder, carrying 3 generations at least showing all the breed numbers and registration numbers and also the breedersname and address. If the vendor is not the breeder, the pedigree must additionally be signed by thevendor. If the cat/kitten is not registered, a copy of the mating certificate (Rule 3d) shall besupplied by the vendor to the new owner.


Anyone who thinks the GCCF do not take such a breach seriously would do well to check the suspension lists.
Rule 10b refers to the registration/transfer document and allows for joint consent for withholding


> 10b. If, at time of sale, the cat or kitten is registered the seller shall provide the purchaser with a transfer form, duly completed and signed by the seller,unless it is jointly agreed in writing by both parties at the time of sale not to do so.


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## tttomy (Mar 18, 2012)

withholding the papers? in my ten years of experience in breeding, this has never ever crossed my mind. all my kittens are neutered and spayed before they go to their new home, unless the kitten is being sold as a breeding cat or show cat. ridiculous


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Thought it was the pink transfer slip that was 'the papers' - the proof the cat / kitten is registered with the GCCF. Of course I might be wrong.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Thought it was the pink transfer slip that was 'the papers' - the proof the cat / kitten is registered with the GCCF. Of course I might be wrong.


The transfer slip comes back to the breeder with the information regarding registration details - mainly the unique registration number for the cat. You'll see rule 10a refers to breed numbers and registration numbers. The breed number is a code for the breed and colour/coat pattern of the cat. All the information on the transfer slip therefore *has* to be entered on the pedigree certificate and can be verified with the GCCF. It is against the rules for any breeder to withhold this information and plenty have been disciplined for it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The only bit on the pedigree that suggests the kitten is registered is the registration number, and without the pink slip - is it real? Come to that, would a new owner realise it should be there?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If they bother to read the Code of Ethics - a copy of which should be handed over at the time of sale they would. That's why the GCCF require it to be included.

All of this is for the protection of the buyer. The registration number *is* the proof of registration. The pink transfer document is exactly what it says with the cat's details printed on for ease of admin if the new owner wishes to register themselves as such. We breeders keep the white top copy.

Some 'breeder' says to a buyer "I'm the sort that really cares so you won't get any paperwork from me until ..... whenever". So, is that just a breeder who deliberately breaks GCCF rules or a con artist selling kittens? I defy any buyer to tell the difference, it's obviously a great line as it's fooled at least one poster on this thread who got nothing more than a vaccination cerftificate.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Wow, huge thanks for all the responses and views guys, really opened my eyes.

The breeder I'm buying from states on her website that the kittens will be registered with TICA, so I'm wondering if any of these GCCF rules will apply? And if a pedigree registration with Tica is even recognised if I wanted to enter them in shows?
The Siberian Cat Club is affiliated with GCCF but I'm not sure if that even means anything?

I will ask her about showing and whether she would be willing to neuter them early as she does mention it on her website (although I don't know if its implied to be for older kittens).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You will need to import the cat into the GCCF to show it at GCCF shows. This will require extra documents and will cost. It's worth asking the breeder if her cats are dual registered or if she will provide the necessary documents. 

The same protections do not exist for the buyer under TICA registrations as the organisation is based in the USA. This doesn't mean it isn't a perfectly good registration body. It is but unless you want to show your cat at TICA shows only you need to sort this out with the breeder in good time. You will not be able to import the cat into the GCCF if she won't give you the necessary documentation.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Understood, thanks Havok 

I'm not even sure if I would want to show them yet, but it is always good to be prepared. I guess it's more I just want the proof that they are what the breeder says they are and I'm not being duped.

I was almost had by an advertisement for 2 siberian kittens on preloved a couple of months ago who they claimed was staying at a rescue centre because the owner had cancer and couldn't look after them anymore. Since she was 'so ill' in hospital the rescue centre refused to bother her about pedigree papers. I came very close to travelling up to Blackpool Cats in Care to buy them. But then I found a post from a few years ago mentioning the same scenario and same rescue centre. Hmm!

So now I'm willing to pay full price because I've fallen in love with breed and hoping my allergies won't be as bad and would hate to still fall into a trap!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I think rescues, even breed rescues, have a policy of not supplying papers. Goodness knows why, when the cats are already neutered.

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

If you wish to import the cat into GCCF and show there you MUST discuss this with the breeder as some breeds have different registration policies and what can be shown in TICA cannot in GCCF and vice versa .... I don't know if this applies in TICA or not for Sibs.

The only thing you need from the breeder to import is the blue slip of tica registration - you then need a TICA certified 5 gen pedigree which TICA supply at a cost. The GCCF will only accept an official certified pedigree 

I don't agree with withholding pink slip although at the moment I and many others cannot provide them as the GCCF ran out of pink slips 4 weeks before their new stationary was delivered! I have nagged and got the registration numbers and am having to send my babies with a manually completed blue transfer form :-(


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

havoc said:


> Some 'breeder' says to a buyer "I'm the sort that really cares so you won't get any paperwork from me until ..... whenever". So, is that just a breeder who deliberately breaks GCCF rules or a con artist selling kittens? I defy any buyer to tell the difference, it's obviously a great line as it's fooled at least one poster on this thread who got nothing more than a vaccination cerftificate.


I agree with this and I would be wary of any breeder telling me something like that, even though I've never ever heard of something like this before. I'm pretty sure ALL registered breeders in my country spay/neuter their kittens before giving them away at 12 weeks of age, I don't think it's a rule but breeders seem to to that. Therefore backyard breeders of cats are basically non-existent (I wish the same could be said for dogs), with one exception - the British Shorthair. I have no idea why, but they are the most common and the cheapest cat breed to get here and the only one that bybs breed. Maine Coons, Persians, Siamese, Ragdolls... All breeds go for 550€ and up (commonly for around 600€), while the BSH cost 200-300€.

Anyway, when I got my Siberian from another country, I was surprised that she wasn't spayed and the breeder didn't even specifically ask me to do so. She just said "some breeders spay/neuter at early age but we don't do that". This is like the perfect breeder to buy from if you're trying to be a byb.

Edit: Just checked kitten ads and there's also a "Maine Coon kittens without a pedigree" that go for 350€. This is the frst time I'm seeing an ad like that for MCs. Oh well, I guess more bybs can be expected in the next years...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Melba said:


> Understood, thanks Havok
> <snip>
> 
> I was almost had by an advertisement for 2 siberian kittens on preloved a couple of months ago who they claimed was staying at a rescue centre because the owner had cancer and couldn't look after them anymore. Since she was 'so ill' in hospital the rescue centre refused to bother her about pedigree papers. I came very close to travelling up to Blackpool Cats in Care to buy them. But then I found a post from a few years ago mentioning the same scenario and same rescue centre. Hmm!
> ...


Strange as Blackpool Cats in Care looks like a genuine rescue. The address is at a vets and they have a really really good page on what to do if your cat got lost. I suspect the scam (if there was one) was in diverting you from going to the rescue.

WRT your allergies - go and spend time at the breeders first. Be honest about your allergies, do your best to make sure any cats you buy won't trigger them. And if you are in the UK and the breeder is talking about withholding the pink slip, ask to see it when you collect the kitten(s).


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

The Blackpool Cats in Care website is a strange one, I even rang the vet it is attached to check the validity of the woman I was speaking to and I'm pretty sure they were forwarding me to the same woman. Just makes me sad that they're probably just running this scam on the side. There were a few warnings like she wouldn't send me a picture because they were at a foster home, but then said a few minutes later she was looking right at them and that they were beautiful. :rolleyes5:

I don't really want to start demanding things from the breeder as we've already paid a deposit and I'm worried about scaring her off, we've waited so long! She says shes never early neutered one of her kittens but she can talk to her vet. But then would I want my two babies to be the first ones in her experience? In the mean time I've asked her if the pedigree paper is something she'll provide or if I can apply for from Tica once I get the registration papers.

I would rather neuter them after they are with me and get the papers then although I know you're all saying that this isn't really how it should be done! I guess some breeders will take advantage of how keen you are to have your little ones.

WRT allergies I am already resigned to the fact that I will probably still get symptons with the siberians, but I'm willing to live on allergy pills if it comes to it. We have thought long and hard about going the rescue route, have looked after cats for friends and took in a really lovely stray but our hearts are set on Siberians.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I don't really want to start demanding things from the breeder as we've already paid a deposit and I'm worried about scaring her off


This is probably a perfectly nice breeder and won't mind at all if you want to see the mum's pedigree. I love it if buyers show this sort of interest. You'll only 'frighten off' somebody who doesn't have the right stuff to show you - and isn't that the point of asking?


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## Siberiancat (Apr 8, 2012)

Melba just out of interest where are you buying them from as there are not many breeders in the uk just thought id ask as may be same breeder i got mine from.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Hiya 

I don't know if I should mention their name on the open forum like this but I will be happy to pm you as I'd like to know where your baby is from too!


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

havoc said:


> This is probably a perfectly nice breeder and won't mind at all if you want to see the mum's pedigree. I love it if buyers show this sort of interest. You'll only 'frighten off' somebody who doesn't have the right stuff to show you - and isn't that the point of asking?


True, I mean why have pedigree papers if you're never expected to use them right?

She has been really nice and quick to respond to my questions. She's told me that usually she waits for the neutering paper before she registers them as she will have to say if they are neutered or not and that they will then be registered in my name.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Hmm, does anyone know why I can't seem to private message people? Do I have to wait a certain amount of posts before it appears? Siberiancat, can you pm me?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Sorry Melba you have to have 25 posts before you can PM


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Ah ok lol, ok I will post around some more then


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Melba said:


> True, I mean why have pedigree papers if you're never expected to use them right?
> 
> She has been really nice and quick to respond to my questions. She's told me that usually she waits for the neutering paper before she registers them as she will have to say if they are neutered or not and that they will then be registered in my name.


Who is she registering them with? Not need to say if they are neutered with the GCCF in the UK. And all registries have ways to transfer ownership.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> She's told me that usually she waits for the neutering paper before she registers them as she will have to say if they are neutered or not and that they will then be registered in my name


That isn't normal and doesn't sound right to me.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

She registers them with Tica, and like you guys have said she would not be bound under the same rules as gccf. Her own website even says she will not sell unregistered kittens, so I am weary of the fact that she wants to wait until I neuter to register them.

I think in the case of siberiancat and myself is that we've trawled a lot of siberian breeder websites and it's not uncommon for them to say that they won't provide papers until proof of neuter. One of them even states that with added empahsis that she is a 10 year veterinary nurse.

I've already paid a deposit, and she has been sending me photos, and she is a member of the siberian cat club so all I can do is trust her really.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Is there a way to check if a Breeder is registered with Tica?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Does TICA really need to know if the kitten is neutered or not to register it? It looks like it has the equivalent of the 'inactive' register that the GCCF has.

http://www.tica.org/members/forms/registration/litter_registration.pdf

I can't remember if you want to show. if you do, note that there are far fewer TICA shows in the UK than GCCF, and they are mostly in the south, though remember that since I live in Scotland, the start of the south is quite a long way north!

You also ask if it's possible to check if a breeder is registered with TICA. Suggest you contact them:

Contacts

I know some breeders dual register in the UK, but registering just with TICA would be more unusual in my view.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There's a list of TICA cattery names just as there is a list of GCCF prefixes. 
TICA Breeders - TICA breeder, The International Cat Association breeders, Bengal breeders, Savannah cat breeders, Maine Coon breeders, Abyssinian breeders, Ragdoll breeders, Somali cats breeders, Bengal kittens, Savannah kittens



> she is a member of the siberian cat club


This is irrelevant if it's a GCCF club and she isn't registering the kittens with the GCCF.

TICA has a voluntary code of ethics which encourages breeders not to give over ANY paperwork until they have had proof of neutering - they call it altering because it is a USA based organisation. As has been seen by various threads on here, this is a charter for fraud in the UK. It is NOT a rule so buyers should not believe any breeder who tells them it is and it certainly doesn't mean the kittens can't be registered before you hand over your hard earned cash. At least insist on seeing the registration before you take a kitten. Don't rely on the promise that they will be registered later. There are great breeders who register with TICA. It's also unfortunately a refuge for those who have fallen foul of the GCCF so buyers must take care.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Does TICA really need to know if the kitten is neutered or not to register it? It looks like it has the equivalent of the 'inactive' register that the GCCF has.

http://www.tica.org/members/forms/registration/litter_registration.pdf

I can't remember if you want to show. if you do, note that there are far fewer TICA shows in the UK than GCCF, and they are mostly in the south, though remember that since I live in Scotland, the start of the south is quite a long way north!

You also ask if it's possible to check if a breeder is registered with TICA. Suggest you contact them:

Contacts

I know some breeders dual register in the UK, but registering just with TICA would be more unusual in my view.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Does TICA really need to know if the kitten is neutered or not to register it?


Short answer - No.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Yeah, saying she is a member of the siberian cat club doesn't really mean anything! But I would have hoped it would at least mean she has the approval of other recognised breeders whom are registered with gccf or tica or both.

Her cattery is also listed in the TICA registered catteries list:

http://www.tica.org/public/breeds/includes/cattery.pdf

By looking at the form OrientalSlave posted it doesn't look like you put anywhere that they are neutered, but that is for litter registration? I'm assuming she would register them under household pet where you do say if they are neutered:

TICA Forms

http://www.tica.org/members/forms/registration/household_pet_registration.pdf

This is also from the tica website:
(TICA FAQ )

Will I receive the kittens papers?
When you get your kitten, you'll receive its health/vaccination record and a written sales agreement. After you have the kitten altered and send the breeder a veterinarians certificate of neutering or spaying, the breeder will send you the kittens TICA registration form. To register the kitten, you fill out the registration form, and send it with the proper fee to TICA.

So really, by TICA standards she is doing nothing wrong. The only thing I can ask to see is the pedigree of the parents I guess?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Her cattery is also listed in the TICA registered catteries list:


So am I - you send money across the pond and they put you on the list.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So really, by TICA standards she is doing nothing wrong


Not as long as you get your pedigree and reg papers eventually. This is an American way of doing things. It gives the buyer no protection at all and you have nowhere to go if it all goes wrong. There is no requirement or reason for the breeder to withhold papers just because they register with TICA - they could hand them over at the time of sale if they wanted.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

*Sigh* Wish I had gone for a gccf registered breeder, but did not know all the things I know now. There is only a limited amount of siberian breeders, I went to the gccf website - they can't provide you with breeders and tell you to go the cat club page which caters for that breed, go to their cat clubs page and the only place where there was a 'recognised' body in the uk for them was the siberian cat club. 

Aside from that I wouldn't know who to trust, just know I shouldn't buy from abroad, don't believe people who say they will ship them with courier for free etc. Thought I was doing the best I could, think I will just have to hope for the best now! As long as they are full siberians, healthy and have been well looked after I will be happy!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> So am I - you send money across the pond and they put you on the list.


SO am I - never registered a kitten with them yet - but one day I may do


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm thinking of doing so as well, just so no-one in the US can come up with my prefix as a cattery name...


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Btw, thanks everyone for looking into the matter with me. This is the first forum I've been on where people really take the time to help others and offer advice and information. Really appreciated.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

from my knowledge (and it is limited) Siberians aren't fully recognised to championship status yet with gccf whereas they are with tica so many sib breeders go with tica as it means they can show competitively - it doesn't mean they aren't reputable etc - if you want to show before the cat is neutered tell your breeder straight away and ask her to help you - you might get the reg docs quicker too.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm thinking of doing so as well, just so no-one in the US can come up with my prefix as a cattery name...


That's the only reason mine is TICA registered :yesnod:


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There's Felis Britanica to worry about as well... :bored:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm thinking of doing so as well, just so no-one in the US can come up with my prefix as a cattery name...


That's why I did it


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