# aggressive to other dogs



## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

My 15 month old Sporting Lucas Terrier x JRT has been gradually getting more aggressive towards other dogs. I had him at 7weeks and he is from working parents. He is very bright, VERY cute and has been very easy to train, very obedient and responsive. He now goes to agility lessons and is doing very well. He has never shown any aggression to me or any other person, child or adult, and I would say he is a 'people dog'. The only snag is that he will sometimes go completely ballistic towards random other dogs. This started at 8 weeks when he first went to puppy socialisation; he appeared really scared and his reaction to the other (larger breed) pups was to go for them. I was very concerned at his response but the vet nurse said to leave him sort it out himself. I now wonder whether that was the first mistake I made. Since then, is generally pretty sociable once he knows they are friendly and loves to play with dogs who he sees regularly, but he also shows dominant behaviour towards them. I had him neutered at 8 months, which helped a lot, but the problem of aggression still cropped up occasionally. But over the past month it seems to have increased. He doesn't go for all dogs, just some, but these can be adult, puppy, male, female, large, small, neutered or whole. It happens whether he is on or off the lead - I would say probably more when off than on. It often seems to be triggered by whatever vibes the other dog is giving off, or it will happen if the dog rushes up to him suddenly. He seems to appear frightened at times, and so attacks out of fear. Other times I think it is to do with possession of toys, territory, or owners. One issue is that almost everyone who meets him says how cute he is, and he is given masses of attention by just about everyone who claps eyes on him, because he does look exceeding cute! I think this has given him an elevated opinion about himself in relation to other dogs, as when I walk him with other people and their dogs, my dog is the one that is given attention by practically everyone we meet on the way. He doesn't actually bite the other dogs, he just seems to snarl, growl, rush at them and snap at them, but there never seems to be any bloodshed on either side. 
This week I have taken him off Bakers food, which I read on here can make them more aggressive. I have also completely stopped using treats, which has also really reduced his levels of excitement and 'attitude'- I think they were becoming a huge source of stress to him as he wanted to have them all and not let the other dog near them. He doesn't seem to need them in order to obey my commands, and he enjoys verbal praise and a pat/cuddle in a more calm way. 
I also had a good response when I managed to grab him right near the start and gave him a really stern telling off.
All these things have helped but I'm not sure how to completely turn this behaviour round. THe vet says not to tell him off because he would then associate other dogs with being told off. BUt he also has lots of doggy friends that he plays with beautifully and really enjoys being with, so I don't think that would happen. 
I thought about using a muzzle - does anyone have any advice/opinions about this? 
Other thoughts are to put him with a steady, older and larger dog and instead of stopping the fight, let him continue and hopefully lose it - I am thinking that maybe by stopping the fight he is thinking he is top dog and then trying it on the next one. Obviously I don't want him to get hurt or really beaten up, but as I usually pull him away from the other dog maybe he hasn't been 'taught a lesson' by them?? Another idea I have had is to use something to give him a quick jolt when he goes to attack, such as a loud noise or something, to break his attention - is there anything that would be a good idea to use?? I try not to relay any anxiety onto him when we meet other dogs but I am really scared that if he meets an aggressive larger dog he could get ripped to shreds. 
All help and advice very gratefully received please.:frown:


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> My 15 month old Sporting Lucas Terrier x JRT has been gradually getting more aggressive towards other dogs. I had him at 7weeks and he is from working parents. He is very bright, VERY cute and has been very easy to train, very obedient and responsive. He now goes to agility lessons and is doing very well. He has never shown any aggression to me or any other person, child or adult, and I would say he is a 'people dog'. The only snag is that he will sometimes go completely ballistic towards random other dogs. This started at 8 weeks when he first went to puppy socialisation; he appeared really scared and his reaction to the other (larger breed) pups was to go for them. I was very concerned at his response but the vet nurse said to leave him sort it out himself. I now wonder whether that was the first mistake I made. Since then, is generally pretty sociable once he knows they are friendly and loves to play with dogs who he sees regularly, but he also shows dominant behaviour towards them. I had him neutered at 8 months, which helped a lot, but the problem of aggression still cropped up occasionally. But over the past month it seems to have increased. He doesn't go for all dogs, just some, but these can be adult, puppy, male, female, large, small, neutered or whole. It happens whether he is on or off the lead - I would say probably more when off than on. It often seems to be triggered by whatever vibes the other dog is giving off, or it will happen if the dog rushes up to him suddenly. He seems to appear frightened at times, and so attacks out of fear. Other times I think it is to do with possession of toys, territory, or owners. One issue is that almost everyone who meets him says how cute he is, and he is given masses of attention by just about everyone who claps eyes on him, because he does look exceeding cute! I think this has given him an elevated opinion about himself in relation to other dogs, as when I walk him with other people and their dogs, my dog is the one that is given attention by practically everyone we meet on the way. He doesn't actually bite the other dogs, he just seems to snarl, growl, rush at them and snap at them, but there never seems to be any bloodshed on either side.
> This week I have taken him off Bakers food, which I read on here can make them more aggressive. I have also completely stopped using treats, which has also really reduced his levels of excitement and 'attitude'- I think they were becoming a huge source of stress to him as he wanted to have them all and not let the other dog near them. He doesn't seem to need them in order to obey my commands, and he enjoys verbal praise and a pat/cuddle in a more calm way.
> I also had a good response when I managed to grab him right near the start and gave him a really stern telling off.
> All these things have helped but I'm not sure how to completely turn this behaviour round. THe vet says not to tell him off because he would then associate other dogs with being told off. BUt he also has lots of doggy friends that he plays with beautifully and really enjoys being with, so I don't think that would happen.
> ...


Don't let him get attacked by older/bigger dogs, this wont teach him a lesson this will just make him more scared. I was told to do this with my JR bitch and it did not help. Perhaps try what I'm doing, Positive Re-enforcement with other dogs, I've also got the book Click To Calm which is pretty good (what I've read so far!) also ordered Control Unleashed. These could be books to help you.

Dottie sounds like your dog, okay with dogs she knows but not always with unknown dogs. Perhaps treat all dogs with caution and keep your dog close by when other dogs appear. That's what I'm doing with my 2. I feel better keeping them close by and plying them with treats to keep their attention. Dottie is harder to do this with but try some hot dogs, cheese, ham all tasty high value treats to keep their attention.

More experienced members will be able to advise more. This is what I'm doing with my reactive/dog aggressive two on the great advice I've been given on here.

Good luck

xxx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> My 15-MO Terrier x JRT has... gradually [grown] more aggro toward other dogs.
> [he left his dam & litter] at 7-WO & is from working parents. He's very bright, VERY cute & [was / is] very easy
> ...


general note: 
Terrierrists are the most-aggro group of breeds, as a classification.

A - if it's TRULY 'random' other dogs, this will be much harder to sort: the more identifiable the trigger, 
the better the prognosis & the easier it is to design a B-mod plan.

B - i think the vet-nurse gave lousy advise. :nonod: this really should have been addressed immediately. 
for more than a year he's rehearsed aggro toward other dogs who scare him, whichever dogs fit his criteria. 


kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> [he']s generally pretty sociable once he knows they're friendly & loves to play with dogs that he sees regularly,
> but *he also shows dominant behaviour towards them*.


please specify what's 'dominant'? what does he DO - not how does he FEEL, nor how U feel about his actions, 
but what specific actions are being labeled 'dominant'? 


kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> [he was] neutered at 8-MO, which helped a lot, but... aggro still cropped up occasionally.
> ...over the past month it seems to have increased. He doesn't go for all dogs, just some,
> ...


 - the dogs he reacts to may have physical traits in common: prick ears, ring tails, wire-coat or long-coat, 
color [black, white, pied, self-colored...], behaviorally similar [bouncy, pugnacious, reactive...], 
HAVE long tails or LACK long tails, hound ears, button ears...

- i would not have him off-lead, period; he cannot be allowed to interact with all & sundry dogs. 
to let him play with his buddy-dogs, find a fenced area for them to share, where other dogs cannot enter: 
a tennis-court, a fenced yard / garden, a fenced soccer-pitch, etc.

- he doesn't like surprises or dogs who rush toward him / into his personal space. he's not alone; many dogs 
are not keen on being rushed or intrusive greetings from strange-dogs. STRAIGHT-ON approaches 
are rude in dog-language; i'd avoid or intercept *every dog* who sees him & immediately aims for him, 
no matter how happy or friendly they look; polite dogs approach in an arc, not a straight line, & not head-on. 
short-stop them by stepping between the approaching dog & keep YOUR dog behind U, on a shortened lead.



kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> One issue[:] almost everyone who meets him says how cute he is, & he's given masses of attention by
> just about everyone who claps eyes on him, because he does look exceeding cute! *I think this [gave] him
> ...


he has a swelled-head because he KNOWS that he gets more compliments, admiration & attention?????!! :huh: 
go on - pull the other leg.  Does he spend much time staring into mirrors - or still ponds? 
is his middle-name 'Narcissus'?  dogs don't become vain, nor do dogs develop a status complex, nor rank 
themselves in a linear hierarchy; *humans* do that.


kath3kidz said:


> He doesn't actually bite... other dogs, he just seems to snarl, growl, rush... them & snap at them,
> but there never seems to be any bloodshed on either side.


what about CONTACT? does he actually bite, does he body-slam, does he snark, air-snap? do they get 
SALIVA on them, are there bruises, scratches, warm lumps 24-hours later?...



kath3kidz said:


> This week I [took] him off Bakers.., which I read on [PF-uk] can make them more aggro.
> I've... completely stopped... treats, which... also really reduced his levels of excitement & 'attitude'- I think
> [treats] were becoming a huge... stress... as he wanted to have them all & not let the other dog near them.
> He doesn't seem to need them... to obey... commands, & he enjoys verbal praise & a pat/cuddle... more [calmly].


 - treats can be used even with dogs who resource-guard intensely. I've done it; i've shown pet-owners 
how to do this. With him on a leash, clipped to a front-ring *on the chest* of an H-harness, 
or clipped to a habituated headcollar, he cannot lunge at other dogs.

- the simplest scenario? 
make another dog coming toward him & *that dog* getting a treat, become a *predictor* that he will 
get a treat; every time another dog gets one, he gets one *next.* Simple rule, very effective. :wink:

- labels do matter; i'd suggest 'cues' rather than 'commands', & 'comply' rather than 'obey'. 
over 80% of the time, i've found that dogs who don't comply either don't really know what the cue means, 
have never been proofed to the level required by the particular scenario, or there's some other reason - 
distraction, anxiety, stacked triggers, pain, _________ .



kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis* added -
> 
> *I also had a good response when I managed to grab him right near the start & gave him a really stern telling off.*


well, then :thumbup: U've solved Ur own problem, congratulations! Why are we posting here? 

actually, *suppressing his aggro,* which is fear-based, is simply aggression from YOU - his human, 
who's supposedly on 'his' side, but mysteriously is now another threatening person to defend himself from, 
rather than an advocate or ally. Since he's already paranoid about other & bigger dogs, how can this help? 


kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> All these... have helped but I'm not sure how to completely turn this behaviour round.
> *The vet says not to tell him off cuz he'd then associate other dogs with being told off. *
> BUt he... has lots of doggy friends that he plays with beautifully & really enjoys... so *I don't think that'd happen*.


- i think the vet is right - which is very lucky for U & Ur dog, as most vets give terrible behavioral advice. 
U are among the few to have a vet who seems more eduacted about dogs & dog-behavior, rather than only 
dog symptoms, physiology, pharmacology, structure, etc. :thumbsup: Lucky U!

- here's an idea: do the CORRECTIONS for a month or so; come back & tell us how he's doing. 
think of it as an experiment in clinical psychology, with Ur dog as the subject. :001_smile: 


kath3kidz said:


> I thought about using a muzzle... anyone have... advice/opinions about this?


U cannot do this unless the OTHER dogs are also muzzled, or unless all dogs are ALWAYS leashed. 
otherwise U put him at risk of being bitten when he reacts to his still-present fear by growling, posturing, etc. 
his defensive behaviors will instigate attacks on him - & he will be defenseless. 


kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> Other thoughts[:] put him with a steady, older & larger dog & [vs stop] the fight, let him continue
> & hopefully lose... I'm thinking that maybe... stopping [fights], he [thinks] he's top dog & [tries] it on
> ...


do U have veterinary insurance? 
if so, Good - U're going to need it. If not, don't get any; no one else should *pay the bills* for U setting 
Ur dog up to fight another dog, in the hope that he loses. HOW WOULD THAT HELP HIS CONFIDENCE 
AROUND OTHER DOGS? *U've already stated that he was afraid of other dogs as a pup, defensive 
& snarky; there is no reason to believe he's become a self-confident, bold, social dog, & every reason 
to think he is STILL that scared, defensive pup - just older.*


kath3kidz said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> Another idea I've had[:] use something to *give him a quick jolt* when he goes to attack,
> such as a loud noise or something, to break his attention - is there anything that would be a good idea to use??


this is just more *'scare the dog'* - which IMO won't help, altho if U'd like it can become another 
experiment - tho i would not suggest it. But hey, he's Ur dog. 


kath3kidz said:


> I try not to relay any anxiety... when we meet other dogs but I'm really scared that if he meets
> an aggro larger dog, he'd get ripped to shreds.


don't think about tigers.  think about anything else - but not tigers...


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

There seems to be lots of mixed messages coming from your post, like you are unsure of the correct action to take when you come into contact with another dog. It also seems that you are not the only one, coincidence?

Dogs do not have an ego, they do not have pride, but what they do have is an uncanny ability to read even the most minute pieces of body language, both human and canine, that they have learned predict something else happening. Another dog approaches and your pup is unsure, he looks to you for guidance, you are unsure, so as with all things your dog has only two choices, flight or fight.

If you punish the dog in any way (including verbally) for these indiscretions then yes, your vet was right, he will quickly associate the punishment with the encounter. A positive punishment is anything that the dog does not like which happens as a direct result of his actions, that is not to say it doesn't work, but it has to be the right punishment at exactly the right time and that is very, very difficult to achieve and if you have to repeat the punishment more than twice, the message is not getting through.

I think your best course of action would be to try and change his association with doggy strangers, at the moment he is afraid of them until (if) he learns that they might be fun to play with and 99 times out of 100, aggression is fear based. You can use that to your advantage and make the play a reward to reinforce calmer greetings. If you approach and he starts to react, take him away until he stops, then go back, rinse and repeat. If he is motivated by treats or praise then this could help as well, taking the approach and introduction one step at a time, reinforcing every move that is not aggressive and using a negative punishment (removing him from the vicinity/the opportunity to play) when he fails.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

THanks all for the advice. Pupcakes - I will get the books you mention - having read your post it seems to have helped you with Milo. 
Jasper's Bloke, thanks, your reply sounds pretty clear and I'll try some of your ideas and report back.
Leashed for Life - thanks for your detailed reply. I did feel pretty disheartened tho by some of your sarky comments cos it felt like you were laughing at me and taking the p***. People come onto these sites because they are looking for support, and the site calls itself 'the friendly site'. But I thought there was a fair amount of p***taking in your answer, which when you're feeling pretty low about yerself anyway don't exactly help!:crying: Also, since when did THIS become a fact: Quote:"dogs don't .... develop a status complex, nor rank themselves in a linear hierarchy; humans do that." I thought it was well established and accepted that dogs are pack animals and have a completely hierarchical mentality with one another, ranking each other and so on in a pcking order system i.e. linear hierarchy?!
I have had a dog for the last 36 years, just not a terrier - that's the new bit for me. This particular breed and its relevant psychology is the bit I'm new to and I don't want to make more mistakes than I have already. I sometimes wonder how many of the users of this site actually HAVE a dog, or whether they just sit tapping keys all day??!! !
THat being said - you ask what kind of dominant behaviours he has shown when around familiar dogs. HE would try and push between the other dog and its owner, guard possessions, territory, food etc from the other dog and growl/warn the other dog off if it tried to approach them. Guard certain seats, like in the car, try to not let the other dog into the car for example. ONe thing he has consistently done is when he is happily playing in the park and he spots a new group or person with a dog he will bound over joyfully, go right past the dog to its people, jump up wagging his tail and fawn all over them, (usually to a chorus of 'OH isn't he soooo SWEET??!!' etc while I'm dashing across to get him to get down!) I always tell people not to reward his jumping up but its difficult to stop them. By now the other dog/dogs have approached him probablly wondering who the hell is this?! He then greets the other dog, sometimes looking a bit nervous and jumpy, and they will usually start to run around and play. HE might then continue happily with them with no problem, or else he'll start shoulder barging and seeming to prevent them from getting to their owner or toy. Then he will suddenly launch at them in a frenzy of barking and airsnapping, at which point the other dog usually retaliates. None of it so far has caused any injury on either side and as far as I can tell his teeth do not engage much or heavily, mostly airbiting. But sometimes if we meet a dog (usually - but not always- larger breed and maybe more scary looking) he will just launch at it in a frenzy before I can stop him. That seems to be to do with body language, eye contact and generally whatever vibe the dog is giving off. I think that my dog is not naturally aggressive but I think he is fearful and is engaging in fight or flight principles ie fight or be attacked. I think he is picking up on some cue from the other dog. If they are relaxed then he is as well and will play happily with them, allowing them to be the dominant one and so on.
I tried having him under my control, staying calm myself and trying to remove him from meeting an unleashed and very bouncy ridgeback yesterday. HE lunged and snarled at the ridgeback who promptly went for him, and guess what?? I had a bloody great fight going on on the end of the lead!hmy: NOT very safe for anyone!


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

The pack theory was proved to be rubbish years ago. A proper pack consists of the 2 alphas and is mostly their offspring or relatives, last time i checked i didn't give birth to my dog therefore we are not a pack. Yes you get some dominant and submissive dogs but you also get some dominant and submissive humans, it's more a personality trait than a training theory.

I will say do not let your dog offlead until you've done a lot of "look at me" training(where you can get the dog to focus on you at any time) and you will need to be stricter on both your dog and other people in regards to jumping up. When my dog(a mix of 3 large breeds) was a pup people would encourage it but now he's over 43kg and they don't like it so much(he hardly does it now as i had to really crack down on it). Until you have more control of your dog he cannot go offlead, get a training line or even a flexi lead so he can run but you still have control.

With regards to other dogs, shout to their owners that your dog can be aggressive and could they please get their dog onlead so they can have a calm, controlled meeting where both owners are there to separate them if the worst happens.

I wish you the best with your dog but you will need to forget any of the dominance/pack theory stuff as it's very outdated.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

THanks for that. I didn't realise the pack theory had been disproved. However, I have just done a walk with him on a long flexi leash and all was well, except we only saw one dog who he totally ignored anyway! I did call to the owner and she had hers sitting looking at her, so mine just walked by at a distance of about 5 paces quite happily. How did you 'crack down' on yours jumping up at people? I'm going to really drill him in giving me his focus and going into the 'down' position so that I should be able to use this when I see an off leash strange dog approaching. What would be nice is if he can then greet that dog and if they are ok maybe then play off leash once he knows the other dog is no threat to him. What do you think? HArd to play on leash but I think lots of meet and greet experience and walk on by would be a good way to reintroduce him to dogs in a controlled way. Yeah?? I used to have border collies - VERY different to terriers much as I love him.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> THanks all for the advice. Pupcakes - I will get the books you mention - having read your post it seems to have helped you with Milo.
> Jasper's Bloke, thanks, your reply sounds pretty clear and I'll try some of your ideas and report back.
> *Leashed for Life - thanks for your detailed reply. I did feel pretty disheartened tho by some of your sarky comments cos it felt like you were laughing at me and taking the p***. People come onto these sites because they are looking for support, and the site calls itself 'the friendly site'. But I thought there was a fair amount of p***taking in your answer, which when you're feeling pretty low about yerself anyway don't exactly help!*:crying: Also, since when did THIS become a fact: Quote:"dogs don't .... develop a status complex, nor rank themselves in a linear hierarchy; humans do that." I thought it was well established and accepted that dogs are pack animals and have a completely hierarchical mentality with one another, ranking each other and so on in a pcking order system i.e. linear hierarchy?!
> I have had a dog for the last 36 years, just not a terrier - that's the new bit for me. This particular breed and its relevant psychology is the bit I'm new to and I don't want to make more mistakes than I have already. I sometimes wonder how many of the users of this site actually HAVE a dog, or whether they just sit tapping keys all day??!! !
> ...


Please don't feel as though L4L is being sarcy or rude, I promise he just has yours and your dogs best intentions at heart. It's very easy to get offended or take things the wrong way via a screen and text, but I can assure you, everyone is here to help you 



kath3kidz said:


> THanks for that. I didn't realise the pack theory had been disproved. *However, I have just done a walk with him on a long flexi leash and all was well, except we only saw one dog who he totally ignored anyway! I did call to the owner and she had hers sitting looking at her, so mine just walked by at a distance of about 5 paces quite happily.* How did you 'crack down' on yours jumping up at people? I'm going to really drill him in giving me his focus and going into the 'down' position so that I should be able to use this when I see an off leash strange dog approaching. What would be nice is if he can then greet that dog and *if they are ok maybe then play off leash once he knows the other dog is no threat to him. What do you think? HArd to play on leash but I think lots of meet and greet experience and walk on by would be a good way to reintroduce him to dogs in a controlled way.* Yeah?? I used to have border collies - VERY different to terriers much as I love him.


Glad to hear you had a great walk! I walk my 2 (separately) on a flexi-lead, and although I know a lot of people hate them, I do love mine. It's nice to hear you met an understanding dog owner too, most people just let their dogs barge over to mine and say the usual "He's alright!" or "He's needs putting in his place"  How did you feel walking him on a flexi-lead? More relaxed and comfortable? I certainly did/do when I take my 2 out.

In regards to letting your dog play with a friend/dog he knows, I bought a 15metre training line last week and take it out in my "dog bag" so if they do see a dog they know they can still have a controlled play, although I do warn you if they decide to run off, be prepared to have a jolt to your arm! I'm finding this really good as Charlie has lots of bitches he likes to play with down the park and now he can under control.

Best of luck and please keep us updated.

xxx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Havent read any other replys so could be duplicating.
Personally I think the leaving him to sort it out advice as a 8 weeks pup could have been the start of the problems. I believe pups can go through a first fear period around this time, when they are naturally wary and cautious, so if he had experiences that he wasnt sure about and learned that he had to defend himself if he couldnt escape the situation then that could be the problem. It could be a mixture of fear when he is uncertain and feels threatned by certain dogs, and with ones he doesnt see as a threat he can exert himself to be the one to get the toys,treats etc. If he as you say is happy and sociable with dogs he knows and ones within his comfort zone, then it doesnt sound like he is just outrightly aggressive, all possible theory of course cant see him and just from what you have said.

As a lot of his problem seems to be routed in uncertainty and fear, personally I would avoid anything that could give him more negative associations with other dogs approaching. That means, no things like the pet correctors, and any form of punishment. As hard as it is too, you must try to remain calm in the situation (I believe you now said you are getting apprehensive and frightened) not easy I know, but any anxiety you feel and fear, he will pick up on, so it will just convince him all the more the dogs a threat, something thats got to be scared off.

Personally I would perfect your recall, if it isnt 100% already, (I think you said he runs up to people and other dogs) If you can get a really good recall and call him back before he gets up to people and dogs, then you can check out the situation, putting him on lead temporarily until you suss out the situation if neccessary in the early days and make sure he is under control. So that would be first thing. I would take a step back, taking him out initially where there are fewer people and dogs, fewer distractions at first so not setting him up to fail whilst perfecting the recall. I would perhaps keep him on a long line whilst you are training. That way he cant run up to dogs, you nee to time it too so you get him focus before he is off halfway across the field and into the behaviour. Call him back peiodically through the walk, reward with a treat or a game, and send him off again with go play. This way he should keep focus on you, learn coming back doesnt mean end of fun, so will more likely too. If hes coming back for a reward, tug game etc too, then there is no fear of competing for them with the other dogs. Another trick is to call and run in the other direction, he should chase after you, as a game not you after him. 

I would alo work on lead with him, so that when other dogs are in the vacinity,approaching etc, he focuses on you. Start too at distance away work to start getting success. In fact you can begin indoor teaching the foundations of watch me. Getting a treat he loves, getting him to sit, or even stand, hold the treat so he has to look up into your face, eye contact, command watch me and treat, and keep it going watch me treat, watch me treat, Good thing for keeping attention is the cheese spread in tubes, comes with little pieces of ham and allsorts too. Most dogs seem to love it, and once got a bit squeezed out, keep licking at the tube to get more. Once you have got the foundations, use it outside, at bigger distances at first, when dogs are about.Then as you progress work up to dogs passing you. The idea is dogs approaching, he gets treats, continues to get the treat as they pass, once passed treats stop. This makes good associations with dogs, approaching, and keeps his focus and attention on you. 

Sorry for the epic, but as nothing can actually be "shown" on the internet its best to explain as best as you can.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> How did you 'crack down' on yours jumping up at people?


search UTube for '*Layla, jumping*'. 
Layla is a 2 to 3-YO large female Golden who has an obsessive full-on tackle greeting style; she has injured several 
adult humans, so it's imperative to get this under control. There are a total of 7 videos, 5 to 10-mins each; 
they cover a 6-week period.

all 6 links are in this post: 
[#19] Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 


kath3kidz said:


> I'm going to really drill him in [focusing on me] & going into the 'down' position,
> so that I should be able to use this *when I see an off-leash strange dog approach*...


i would not suggest asking him to DOWN & stay down with a strange-dog approaching. 
it multiplies the odds that he either cannot hold the down & breaks his position, or gets more wound-up, 
lunges & barks - requiring him to HOLD STILL while the trigger comes closer & closer sets him up to fail.

if U see a strange-dog who is off-leash & seems intent on meeting him, i'd suggest an emergency U-Turn; 
*practice this before U need it,* so that a cheerful, "Let's go!", or a happy game of "Run Away!" is familiar 
to him, & he immediately bounds along next to U with a smile. 


kath3kidz said:


> [It] would be nice... if he can then greet that dog & if they're ok, maybe... play off-leash,
> once he knows the other dog is no threat to him. What do you think?


i think U are going way-too fast.  any on-leash greetings should be literally mere seconds - sniff & go, 
& only with dogs who seem very calm, relaxed & sociable. 


kath3kidz said:


> [It's] hard to play on-leash, but I think lots of meet & greet experience [plus] walk-on...
> would be a good way to reintroduce him to dogs in a controlled way. Yeah?


i'd suggest _Click to Calm_ or _Control Unleashed_ as DIY manuals - 
and i'd limit his on-leash encounters to dogs he *knows* for the moment.

being restrained by a leash means the tension level is heightened already; adding a strange-dog makes it 
IMO far too-fraught. It only takes 1 or 2 bad encounters to undo months of progress & hard work. 
every time U re-start, it becomes a bit harder to convince him that other dogs are really not nasty. 
going in small steps, with repeated happy, short, *successful* encounters, results in fewer crashes 
& re-starts.

*calmatives* are also very helpful - see this post for What, When How, etc: 
[#22] Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I agree with most of the above posts. Buy and read those two books, and you should come away with a much better understanding of how to work on this problem, building a positive association with other dogs for your little man. This should be done using rewards, such as natural food treats like small pieces of cheese, or a favourite toy. Don't think that by using food you are elevating his position; behaviour is contingent on consequences most often than not, so to modify behaviours, we have to give the best consequences to the behaviours we want to develop, e.g. looking at other dogs without reacting gets a nice handful of treats. You can ask your dog to sit or down, but I would focus on having him acknowledge the other dogs from a distance, then reward him for it, and increasing this as you get closer. Any reaction means you have brought him too close to other dogs, and you should attempt to get out of the situation and quickly and calmly as possible, not correct him for it.

As people have rightly said, do not think of this as a status or rank issue. Domestic dogs do not behave like wild pack animals, and in wild packs, there is not a jostling for position. You have the parents and their offspring; when the offspring reach anywhere between 1-3 years old, they will leave the pack and find a mate. Dominance and submission is not really how they build their relationships with each other. Dominance is most certainly _not_ a personality trait, it's just an objective label given to an animal to describe their role in a relationship. Canids do not form typical dominance relationships, unless they are captive animals and put under absurd stress. Some animals do fight for resources, with the successful animal being labelled 'dominant' and the others 'subordinate', but this is not a personality trait, as it could be completely different next season.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> ...behaviour is contingent on consequences... so to modify behaviours, we... give the best consequences
> to the behaviours we want to develop, e-g, look at other dogs [calmly] gets a nice handful of treats.
> 
> ...I'd focus on having him acknowledge the other dogs from a distance, then reward him for [being calm],
> ...


*Click! * :thumbup: Yes!

_Jackpots are special_
when i give a 'jackpot' [multiple treats for a sudden insight, big leap forward, compliance under stress, etc], 
i dole them out One___ At ___ A ___ Time, but just as fast as the dog swallows, another is offered - 
meanwhile, i am pouring warm, sincere praise over the dog with a liberal hand, as if i were pouring 
maple-syrup over my waffles, :lol: i'm very generous with it, but not squeaky & squealing; low-pitched, 
very warm tones, lots of smiles in my eyes, in my voice, & on my face.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your help and support. Today went much better. I have started using Rescue Remedy for both him and me  I don't know if its working yet but worth a go! I've been doing a concentrated bit of obedience training work with him, and also have finally got him to leave my shed door alone - his only remaining 'hang up' other than the dog problem. I thought I'd use the shed door as a practice run and have managed to get him to leave it, focus on me, remain calm and then get his reward! Great! :wink: We went to the beach today with a friend. He loves the beach and LOVES swimming with me, but last time we had a big dust up when somebody let a huge Staffie off its lead and it rushed straight at our camp and he went for it and they had a fight on my lap practically!:huh: (He was on a long line at the time). So today I see 3 loose big dogs (bit scary looking) but all leaping around with their owner and then running off all over the beach playing. Muffin was looking interested and pretty alert. I could feel myself getting all scared. I decided to move away from our towel as he might feel defensive there. So I told him, brightly, that we were going down to the water, and we walked off down there with him happily skipping along with me. He was able to meet and greet 2 of the 3 briefly as they checked him out and then we went straight on into the water, which distracted him on his way. THroughout our time at the beach and on our walk after, he met and greeted a total of 10 different dogs (all strangers) and was fine with them all! Kept him on flexi lead when any were around and practised recall with him throughout the day, which he was fine with. I'm going to try and set up some play situations with some of his older familiar mature dogs that he is good with, and see if I can get his confidence up a bit more. I think the comment above from Husky Sled that this is a phase in his maturation is pretty reassuring - that's how it seems to me, as though he is going through a phase. But I know that if I don't sort the behaviour out now he is likely to cary on with it, so I'm going to really try to turn him round. I did wonder whether getting a Pet Corrector spray to just carry with me to use as a last resort in the event of a fight might make me feel less scared myself, because I am getting really worked up when I see big scary dogs, and I know that I have to not pass my fear on to him - this has only come on after the last few scary incidents, I never used to be nervous like this.:crying: Anyway, today was a really good day, so I am feeling a lot better folks thanks!


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> My 15 month old Sporting Lucas Terrier x JRT has been gradually getting more aggressive towards other dogs. I had him at 7weeks and he is from working parents. He is very bright, VERY cute and has been very easy to train, very obedient and responsive. He now goes to agility lessons and is doing very well. He has never shown any aggression to me or any other person, child or adult, and I would say he is a 'people dog'. The only snag is that he will sometimes go completely ballistic towards random other dogs. This started at 8 weeks when he first went to puppy socialisation; he appeared really scared and his reaction to the other (larger breed) pups was to go for them. I was very concerned at his response but the vet nurse said to leave him sort it out himself. I now wonder whether that was the first mistake I made. Since then, is generally pretty sociable once he knows they are friendly and loves to play with dogs who he sees regularly, but he also shows dominant behaviour towards them. I had him neutered at 8 months, which helped a lot, but the problem of aggression still cropped up occasionally. But over the past month it seems to have increased. He doesn't go for all dogs, just some, but these can be adult, puppy, male, female, large, small, neutered or whole. It happens whether he is on or off the lead - I would say probably more when off than on. It often seems to be triggered by whatever vibes the other dog is giving off, or it will happen if the dog rushes up to him suddenly. He seems to appear frightened at times, and so attacks out of fear. Other times I think it is to do with possession of toys, territory, or owners. One issue is that almost everyone who meets him says how cute he is, and he is given masses of attention by just about everyone who claps eyes on him, because he does look exceeding cute! I think this has given him an elevated opinion about himself in relation to other dogs, as when I walk him with other people and their dogs, my dog is the one that is given attention by practically everyone we meet on the way. He doesn't actually bite the other dogs, he just seems to snarl, growl, rush at them and snap at them, but there never seems to be any bloodshed on either side.
> This week I have taken him off Bakers food, which I read on here can make them more aggressive. I have also completely stopped using treats, which has also really reduced his levels of excitement and 'attitude'- I think they were becoming a huge source of stress to him as he wanted to have them all and not let the other dog near them. He doesn't seem to need them in order to obey my commands, and he enjoys verbal praise and a pat/cuddle in a more calm way.
> I also had a good response when I managed to grab him right near the start and gave him a really stern telling off.
> All these things have helped but I'm not sure how to completely turn this behaviour round. THe vet says not to tell him off because he would then associate other dogs with being told off. BUt he also has lots of doggy friends that he plays with beautifully and really enjoys being with, so I don't think that would happen.
> ...


Hi Kath, we have adopted a 5 year old sporting Lucas terrier and like you our dog has the same problems as yours. This is very weird, like yours he's very obedient and like yours he's cute and loves being pampered by anyone he meets. I see that you have had yours from being a pup and you seem to have most of his problems under control.
With Milo he has been passed from pillar to post as we are owners number 4 and we can't believe the excuses that were given from his past owners, his first owner got rid of him with in his first twelve months the excuse was he was biting their older dogs ears, the second owner had him for nearly two years and again their excuse was their baby had eczema so they couldn't keep him. The third owners were a professional couple where their jobs were more important than Milo and he spent most of his time in kennels rather than being loved by them. We have had him for nearly a month and we love him very much and we won't be passing him on anymore. This problem he has will be sorted out as we are trying to socialise him with some dogs that have a calm and non aggressive state. Up to now he's doing alright off the lead but when he sees another dog on a lead training, he has a screaming bark which can be very off putting to both the other dog and owner. What we have found on the net is a soft head leader collar, apparently most dog whisperers recommend, is this something you are using? if it is can you let me know how your dogs doing and if you are having some success with it.
Anyway its nice to find another sporting lucas terrier owner.
Every success to you.

Regards

Duncan:smile5:


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Duncan!
Lovely to hear from you. It's great to hear from someone else who has a Sporting Lucas! I think they're great little dogs, and Muffin is fantastic in every other way except this one problem. I picked him out of his litter at 4 days old and visited him weekly til I got him at 7 weeks, so I know his whole history. He was one of 5 pups (don't know which order they were born in) and he was the only dog in the litter. Watching him with his siblings I would say the females were much ,ore assertive than him, and generally got the food and toys first, although he was by no means a cowering wimp, just a bit cautious about new things. HE was very people friendly from that young, and would waddle over to me very happily from as soon as he was able to. I think most of this problem probably started from the early puppy classes when he had some really bad experiences, including being picked up at 7 weeks old by a very bouncy springer pup, 9 weeks, whose owner grabbed her pup up into her arms and it dropped Muffin from chest height out of its mouth!:crying: THe nurse was a bit shaken and I was really concerned. Muffin was ok physically but I think it scared him a lot. He was already seeming terrified to me, and that was the first time he had resported to snarling, growling and biting. He DID play tentatively with 2 of the smaller breed pups, but as soon as the large breed ones got in his face out would come the gnashers again.
I've read a bit about soft head collars but haven't tried one. He is so near to the ground I'm not sure how a head collar would work. What exactly are they supposed to do anyway? 
Muffin will walk to heel when asked and his recall is excellent AS LONG AS I CALL HIM BEFORE HE SEES THE OTHER DOG! ONce he has spotted another dog he wants to investigate then he is off across the park and will not obey recall until he's checked it out. Generally though, he is ok in those situations and doesn't turn on them, although sometimes he does. I am planning to really work on the recall to get him more reliable. His worst situations are when he meets a strange large dog in a more head on situation, like when walking down the lane or on a woodland path, and he gets worried about passing them, with lots of hesitation and eye contact etc. If he is on the lead I am able to chat happily to him and try and keep the mood upbeat and he will walk past fine, usually with a quick nose sniff and tail wag. But if the dog approaches him too fast or gives off any hint of aggro/hyper vibe/whatever he will launch at it as though his life depends on it and turn into a snarling ball of fury! I notice though that he airbites rather than making much contact with the other dog's skin, he seems to be posturing.
Glad to hear from someone else with a Sporting Lucas! Terriers seem to be a whole little nation on their own!


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Ok I've just returned from morning dog walk and thought I'd describe what happened to see if any of you guys can shed any more light on things. Went to local park, familiar territory, lots of regular local dogs he knows etc. No dog there on arrival so he played happily in the stream and with his ball, did a few recalls etc. Saw someone arrive with adult male Springer and put him onto his flexi leash well in advance. HE met and greeted fine, and owner said dog really steady etc. They seemed fine so let him off and he had lovely play for a few mins. Said bye and moved on, giving him treat and loads of praise and putting him back on flexi. THen met group with small male terrier 3yrs. Met and greeted fine, owners said dog fine with others, they seemed really friendly to each other. Let him off and he had a few mins chasing and playing happily. Bloke threw ball for his dog, my dog ran and got it first. Obeyed request to 'leave it' and I praised him etc. They threw the ball a few more times and each time my dog was getting it, but would leave it (a bit reluctantly) when asked. I noticed then that he started to warn the other dog off its own ball by quickly lunging towards it if it tried to pick the ball up. The other dog just gave in. I went over and told Muffin to leave it and caught hold of his harness, and threw the ball a foot or 2 to the other dog. Muffin erupted in a big fit of barking and growling, and I put him back on his harness and walked him away, telling him 'No'. We walked on and met a group with 2 female GSDs he has known since little and had always played well with until last week when he had had a go at one of them. (_THe one he had a go at is only 16months and is VERY docile and friendly and gentle - they always played beautifully before but last week when her owner gave him some treats he suddenly started blocking her getting to her owner and then went for her. She just bounded around looking a bit bewildered and a bit as though she thought maybe it was a weird new game._) Anyway, today he was on his flexi leash and we approached them, with everyone greeting in a friendly and relaxed way. He did his usual thing of running to each adult and looking for attention and patting (which he got) and then he just rushed up to the 16month old and launched aggressively at her in a ball of snarling fury!hmy: She just jumped around getting excited as I tried to control him, and the owner (as before) just stood and watched. Because i had him on the flexi I was able to pull him away - although I half lifted him by mistake -and turned my back on the dogs, telling the owner to recall her. THe other dog had kept right out of it. I took Muffin a few yards away, sat him down and sternly said 'No'. Then I walked him quickly out of the park and took him home. 
To my mind he seems to be a bully and seems to pick out dogs he thinks he can dominate, playing well with those who he sees as less easy targets. But he also does this same behaviour with the big scary ones that he seems to be actually scared of. He has always seemed to like GSDs and has several good GSD friends - although if he goes on like this maybe not for long!:crying:
So I expect I have made loads of mistakes today haven't I??


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Hi Duncan!
> Lovely to hear from you. It's great to hear from someone else who has a Sporting Lucas! I think they're great little dogs, and Muffin is fantastic in every other way except this one problem. I picked him out of his litter at 4 days old and visited him weekly til I got him at 7 weeks, so I know his whole history. He was one of 5 pups (don't know which order they were born in) and he was the only dog in the litter. Watching him with his siblings I would say the females were much ,ore assertive than him, and generally got the food and toys first, although he was by no means a cowering wimp, just a bit cautious about new things. HE was very people friendly from that young, and would waddle over to me very happily from as soon as he was able to. I think most of this problem probably started from the early puppy classes when he had some really bad experiences, including being picked up at 7 weeks old by a very bouncy springer pup, 9 weeks, whose owner grabbed her pup up into her arms and it dropped Muffin from chest height out of its mouth!:crying: THe nurse was a bit shaken and I was really concerned. Muffin was ok physically but I think it scared him a lot. He was already seeming terrified to me, and that was the first time he had resported to snarling, growling and biting. He DID play tentatively with 2 of the smaller breed pups, but as soon as the large breed ones got in his face out would come the gnashers again.
> I've read a bit about soft head collars but haven't tried one. He is so near to the ground I'm not sure how a head collar would work. What exactly are they supposed to do anyway?
> Muffin will walk to heel when asked and his recall is excellent AS LONG AS I CALL HIM BEFORE HE SEES THE OTHER DOG! ONce he has spotted another dog he wants to investigate then he is off across the park and will not obey recall until he's checked it out. Generally though, he is ok in those situations and doesn't turn on them, although sometimes he does. I am planning to really work on the recall to get him more reliable. His worst situations are when he meets a strange large dog in a more head on situation, like when walking down the lane or on a woodland path, and he gets worried about passing them, with lots of hesitation and eye contact etc. If he is on the lead I am able to chat happily to him and try and keep the mood upbeat and he will walk past fine, usually with a quick nose sniff and tail wag. But if the dog approaches him too fast or gives off any hint of aggro/hyper vibe/whatever he will launch at it as though his life depends on it and turn into a snarling ball of fury! I notice though that he airbites rather than making much contact with the other dog's skin, he seems to be posturing.
> Glad to hear from someone else with a Sporting Lucas! Terriers seem to be a whole little nation on their own!


Hi again Kath, what a cutie he is, he just reminds me of the advert when we saw Milo, even though he's 5 he still has his puppy looks I think that must be the trade mark of this breed. The gentle head leader collar from what I have seen on youtube, it is not as extreme as a halter as it fastens under the dogs chin and behind the head and ears which is more comfortable for the dog so when you have to bring your dog into check it is not as sharp as a halter but is able to keep the dog under control promoting a better response to commands and from what I have seen it seems to have a better success rate than the others.
They cost around £10 which I think is a good investment. I will let you know how everything goes with Milo. Have a look at Milo's pics in the gallery and you will see what a happy chappy he is.

catch you soon!!:wink:


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

SMILEY MILO said:


> Hi again Kath, what a cutie he is, he just reminds me of the advert when we saw Milo, even though he's 5 he still has his puppy looks I think that must be the trade mark of this breed. The gentle head leader collar from what I have seen on youtube, it is not as extreme as a halter as it fastens under the dogs chin and behind the head and ears which is more comfortable for the dog so when you have to bring your dog into check it is not as sharp as a halter but is able to keep the dog under control promoting a better response to commands and from what I have seen it seems to have a better success rate than the others.
> They cost around £10 which I think is a good investment. I will let you know how everything goes with Milo. Have a look at Milo's pics in the gallery and you will see what a happy chappy he is.
> 
> catch you soon!!:wink:


Hello again Kath, I have just been reading your quote where you mentioned the likes of GSD's,Rotty's etc, the other morning I took Milo for his morning walk and everything was fine until we were confronted by a typical chav and he was walking a massive bull mastive and of course Milo's hackles went up and he started to bark but not aggressively, but the nasty mastive snarled baring its teeth at Milo nearly going for his throat, very scary I can tell you. The chav thought it was very funny, I tell you this if anything had of happened to Milo, I would have ripped out the chav's throat.
The problem I think with Milo is lead aggression where he feels threatened by another dog on a lead, what I am trying to do is make Milo focus more on walking and enjoying himself rather than wanting to confront every dog he meets. With the past history that Milo has had we feel that he deserves to have the best life and we are determined to see this through.
The thing I love about this breed is, they are born clowns so eager to please and have so much love to give who would want to harm them.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Smiley Milo,
Thanks for that! Just looked at your pics and he does look a lot like Muffin! I think they do stay puppy-like which is lovely. We had a good afternoon as we went out with my friend and his 3 cairn terriers (a mum and 2 3yr old male offspring - neutered). He had a lovely walk on lead and then an off lead play with them where we tried various combinations of dogs off leash together to see how he responded to them. He was happy and playful mostly but eventually he lost his cool and started snapping and snarling at the more dominant boy. Both boys started to stand up to him and a spat started up. We stayed calm and watchful, and after a brief squirmish Muffin backed off and ran back to me. We made them all lie down for a minute or two to calm down and then let them loose again, and he played fine with them for the rest of the session (10 mins) and walk home. So I guess he just needed them to tell him how it is done, hopefully. Gonna walk with them again tomorrow.
I'm really interested in the head halter idea. Let me know how that goes. Also do you know anything about these harnesses that join on the chest?? What are they supposed to do??


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Hi Smiley Milo,
> Thanks for that! Just looked at your pics and he does look a lot like Muffin! I think they do stay puppy-like which is lovely. We had a good afternoon as we went out with my friend and his 3 cairn terriers (a mum and 2 3yr old male offspring - neutered). He had a lovely walk on lead and then an off lead play with them where we tried various combinations of dogs off leash together to see how he responded to them. He was happy and playful mostly but eventually he lost his cool and started snapping and snarling at the more dominant boy. Both boys started to stand up to him and a spat started up. We stayed calm and watchful, and after a brief squirmish Muffin backed off and ran back to me. We made them all lie down for a minute or two to calm down and then let them loose again, and he played fine with them for the rest of the session (10 mins) and walk home. So I guess he just needed them to tell him how it is done, hopefully. Gonna walk with them again tomorrow.
> I'm really interested in the head halter idea. Let me know how that goes. Also do you know anything about these harnesses that join on the chest?? What are they supposed to do??


Hi Kath, nice to hear about his afternoon walk and play with the other dogs, at present we don't have any friends who have dogs !!!sods law!!! they have cats would you believe and Milo hates cats but I must admit I have cut his screaming bark down to just a squeak, which is on the right track.
I have not seen the harness that fastens under the chest as the one we have fastens under the stomach. This gentle leader collar is supposed to control the dog with a loose lead and keep the dog calm, there is no need to have a tight lead as it controls the dog when he lunges bringing him back in check and walking calmly.

Catch you soon:wink:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

What I can gather from reading about your interactions is that your are going too quick for him. 

He sounds as if he gets easily frustrated and stressed around other dogs, especially when playing, which is not uncommon. The stress builds and builds, until eventually he reacts badly to an approaching dog. 

I don't think it helps with you telling him 'No' either, as this is just punishing for behaviour he obviously can't help, and is probably building up more stress. He is not doing this out of choice, IMO- he would much rather not have to be in that situation at that time, but feels he has no other option, and reacting is what works to defuse the situation.

Be careful who you are socialising him with. Do not allow him to play off-lead with dogs who could be reactive back to him, this is a recipe for disaster. 

When he is playing, keep the sessions short and constantly ask for a 'sit' or 'down' every 30 seconds or so, and reward. This should help him control his stress levels more too. 

Work on building positive associations with other dogs, especially ones you recognise as being potential problems for him. 

As I said in the earlier post, this is not to do with 'dominance' and he is not actively seeking out to dominate particular dogs. His reactions are most involuntary, e.g. they are automatic to a situation that he finds stressful. 

Read the dog body language sticky on here, and notice when he's getting stressed, and remove him.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Smily Milo,
YOu mention your harness that fastens under his tummy - but if he pulls does it not tip him over upside down?? THat's the bit I don't get about these underneath fastening ones.... !
Yeah Muffin is worst of all with pitbull/staffy looking dogs, or Ridgebacks... in fact most shorthaired big dogs..... come to think of it that's what I'M scared of too, so he prob picks a lot of it up from me. He is pretty good on the lead and will usually just walk on by. I think I give him enough security when we are just walking past a leashed dog. It's if they are not on a leash, and is much worse if he is also not on a leash.
Muffin is terrible with cats, but is slowly improving with lots of work on 'leave it' and lots of practice visiting people with steady cats and me keeping him on a leash at a safe distance. HE used to be really bad with horses but I have been practising that too with horsy friends.
Today Muffin is going to have a morning play with my friend Dave and the 3 cairns from yesterday. THen my son, who is a terrier-man/gamekeeper/farmer/hunter is going to take him to visit one of the local farms he works on, with a bunch of steady farm dogs..... I really really hope Muffin copes ok. I'm not going, I'm supposed to stay here with my son's very well balanced little JRT x ..... prob best as I would prob give Muffin the wrong vibes.... Will let you know how he gets on. I was very heartened that yesterday he did give in and play nicely rather than fight on and on and on which is what I had thought he would do. HAve a lovely day with Milo.:wink:
HI Rottie fan,
THat is really useful and helpful advice, thanks. I think you're right, that he just can't help himself at the time. So prob me telling him off isn't really the way to go. I will try and get him playing more positiviely with dogs that he is ok with. HE seems to cope better with confident dogs in small groups, like the 3 cairns mentioned here. He's got another bunch of little teckles that he likes to play with on a local farm, 3 teckles and 2 border collies. HE walks well and plays well with them. I will try practising the training commands every few mins too to keep his stress levels down.
I've ordered some moe homeopathic stress calmer stuff too so I hope that will take the edge off for both of us! 
ps HOW do you people not get scared when this happens with big Rotties/Mastiffs/Dobermanns?GSDs ??? I would be TERRIFIED if I had to break up a big dog fight!:blush2:


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Hi Smily Milo,
> YOu mention your harness that fastens under his tummy - but if he pulls does it not tip him over upside down?? THat's the bit I don't get about these underneath fastening ones.... !
> Yeah Muffin is worst of all with pitbull/staffy looking dogs, or Ridgebacks... in fact most shorthaired big dogs..... come to think of it that's what I'M scared of too, so he prob picks a lot of it up from me. He is pretty good on the lead and will usually just walk on by. I think I give him enough security when we are just walking past a leashed dog. It's if they are not on a leash, and is much worse if he is also not on a leash.
> Muffin is terrible with cats, but is slowly improving with lots of work on 'leave it' and lots of practice visiting people with steady cats and me keeping him on a leash at a safe distance. HE used to be really bad with horses but I have been practising that too with horsy friends.
> ...


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Well Muffin was fine with the 3 cairns and had a nice calm walk, meeting and greeting one other dog on the way. Then went to local park with him on flexi leash and he was just meeting&greeting a 15 yr old male Peke when he suddenly flew at it (after a couple of sniffs between them at nose and rear). I quickly pulled him back and made him sit, talked to the owner for a few mins chattily then took him home, feeling a bit in despair really. 
Then he went off with my son, and visited 2 different farms. Farm 1 he met 5 JRTs in a group, and was apparently fine. He was initially very nervous, then engaged well with them, greeted and then played. He apparently went up to the smallest bitch at one stage and growled at her, and she didn't react, and he just moved away and went on as though nothing had happened. At farm 2 (run by a trainer of gun dogs) he was introduced to 11 steady dogs, one at a time starting from the least dominant female up to the most dominant male. They were cockers and labs, but the final dog was a mastiffxwhippet eek As he met each dog and coped so the farmer let another one in to meet him. Aparently he was fine with them all and played really well. The farmer reckoned he was pretty normal but shows a defensive reaction out of fear/timidity. ALSO - he reckoned its partly to do with Muffin picking up on my own fear and reacting to that. I was always a bit tense around big scary dogs, but as he has had more outbursts so I've got more and more nervous:crying:. I MUST get a grip on myself! My son and I are going to do some more walking together as I feel really calm and safe when he is there, as he is not scared of any dog and really ace at handling them. I will keep taking Muffin out with other steady dogs and for the time being avoid situations where I might meet scary ones and panic. I'm off on hols on Weds to Yorks and Wales for a week so I hope the change of scene is good for Muffin and me! Hope you'all have had a good day!


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Well Muffin was fine with the 3 cairns and had a nice calm walk, meeting and greeting one other dog on the way. Then went to local park with him on flexi leash and he was just meeting&greeting a 15 yr old male Peke when he suddenly flew at it (after a couple of sniffs between them at nose and rear). I quickly pulled him back and made him sit, talked to the owner for a few mins chattily then took him home, feeling a bit in despair really.
> Then he went off with my son, and visited 2 different farms. Farm 1 he met 5 JRTs in a group, and was apparently fine. He was initially very nervous, then engaged well with them, greeted and then played. He apparently went up to the smallest bitch at one stage and growled at her, and she didn't react, and he just moved away and went on as though nothing had happened. At farm 2 (run by a trainer of gun dogs) he was introduced to 11 steady dogs, one at a time starting from the least dominant female up to the most dominant male. They were cockers and labs, but the final dog was a mastiffxwhippet eek As he met each dog and coped so the farmer let another one in to meet him. Aparently he was fine with them all and played really well. The farmer reckoned he was pretty normal but shows a defensive reaction out of fear/timidity. ALSO - he reckoned its partly to do with Muffin picking up on my own fear and reacting to that. I was always a bit tense around big scary dogs, but as he has had more outbursts so I've got more and more nervous:crying:. I MUST get a grip on myself! My son and I are going to do some more walking together as I feel really calm and safe when he is there, as he is not scared of any dog and really ace at handling them. I will keep taking Muffin out with other steady dogs and for the time being avoid situations where I might meet scary ones and panic. I'm off on hols on Weds to Yorks and Wales for a week so I hope the change of scene is good for Muffin and me! Hope you'all have had a good day!:
> Hi Katie, glad to hear that Muffins doing well, I've just come back from taking the diva for his evening walk and he's done well. With Milo its a deep problem we think something has happened in his past which has feared him so much that he has to attack before others go at him, he thinks he's so brave but his body language is saying something else and even though he only wants to play he's going at them aggressively and most dogs are fine with it not bothering with him, but some who are aggressive themselves snarl back at him and he backs off wondering what he's done.
> Up to now when he's off the lead and with dogs he knows he plays fine, its a shame because deep down he's a very intelligent dog and such a cutie I feel very lucky that we have him, as my wife calls him, our little ray of sunshine.
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> ...do you know anything about... harnesses [with the leash clipped to] the chest?
> What are they supposed to do?


front-clip harnesses on PF-uk: 
http://tinyurl.com/3mfopk6

front-clip harness on UTube: 
front-clip harness on dog - YouTube

NOTE that any well-fitting H-harness is fine; it should be fitted smooth & SNUG, so that on a long-coated dog, 
it mashes the hair down - this prevents the harness from rolling side-to-side as the dog or the leash tug on the 
chest-ring at the front.

a front-clip reduces the dog's leverage; it minimizes the amount of force the handler needs to use; 
with a chest-clipped harness, U can gently turn the dog, even in a complete U-turn or simply to one side, 
or turn Ur dog broadside on to another dog that Ur dog stares at; stares raise tension & possibly make THAT dog 
bark or posture in reply [a perfect excuse for the reactive dog to wax even-more vocal or provocative].

keeping one's hands low & wrists straight also makes for the best body-mechanics; bent wrists 
& bent elbows ['chicken-winged'] greatly weaken one's grip & leverage.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

THanks for that L4L. I will invest in one and give it a go. Muffin stands 8" off the ground so there will be a very low point of leverage! He walks very well to heel when I ask him to, and doesn't pull on the leash while out walking but this could be a good way of controlling him when greeting another dog appropriately. Having watched him with more stable and assertive confident dogs I can see that his aggression comes on when he is faced with either a dog that gives off more frightening vibes towards him, or is less confident itself about socialising. THey seem to be the ones he flies at. So at the moment my plan is to avoid meeting up with them if I can, and giving him loads of praise for greeting and playing nicely with the more stable dogs. He really LOVES romping and playing with other dogs, and WAS until recently very sociable most of the time with an occasional spat, but the spats have increased so that almost every day he was having a go at a dog at some point. THat's why I've sought help, as it seems to have become too much of a habit. I know dogs 'teach' each other part of the social behaviour so I guess I have to learn to differentiate between a steady dog correcting him and an unsteady dog either attacking him or letting him attack them I could use this harness to have better control of him in the situation, but I will have to practise so that I don't actually pull him off his feet and upside down in a squirmish!hmy:
Hi Rottiefan - I think your earlier post is pretty sound advice, and that maybe I go back a few steps and reintroduce play as though he is a younger pup and just learning. Start with very steady dogs, avoid the ones he has a problem with, praise nice play etc.... But in the event of a squirmish do I just remove him and say nothing, let him get himself out of said squirmish, or correct him by saying 'No'? Surely I have to tell him that this is not the behaviour I want from him??.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

You could be describing my Oscar with this behaviour, it is almost identical. I have been working on it for a few months and it is improved but not resolved.

Things i have learnt,

Be selective about which dogs he sais hello to and work hard at encouraging indifference to other dogs when out 
Keep any meet and greets to a bare minimum if the are unavoidable (because Oscar is a spaniel people do have a habit of just allowing their dogs over, have to say i am quite direct about him not being great with unfamiliar dogs) When he is sniffing i keep my voice happy and light telling him good boy, one quick sniff and then i move him on swiftly and treat.
Grab any opportunity to accompany steady confident dogs who will ignore any "handbag" behaviour
If he kicks off i do give a firm "leave it" command and block him with my body then i have found getting him under control with a sit and if i can having a chat with the owner for a bit whilst Oscar is calm so as not to reinforce his self rewarding behaviour by taking him right away from the dog in question. 

It is a pain in the butt though as it's so unpredictable so lovely relaxed walks have become less relaxed


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Rainybow,
THanks for that! Although it sounds bad, it cheers me up to know I'm not the only one in this situation - although obviously I hope yours resolves asap! The way you're managing Oscar sounds like a really clear and calm method. I think my problem is I'm a ditherer, and I keep veering from one course of action to another, and I probably don't come across to Muffin as at all sure of what I'm doing in this situation. So I have to step up and 'be a leader' as Cesar Milan would say - (OK OK!! DON'T get started on THAT debate!!!) I think I shall work on improving my own confidence around other, especially big, dogs so that I don't appear so hesitant to Muffin. I think correcting him when he flies at them is a must, as he won't know I don't want him to do that otherwise, will he? With my shed door (see earlier posts) which he used to attack in a complete frenzy, I eventually blocked him, made him sit at a distance, and then gradually was able to open the door and close it again, rewarding him for sitting still. ONce he got the message he has managed it really well ever since. So I might try sitting at a distance from a dog he has tried to go for while I chat happily to the owner and see if he can get a bit desensitised to the dog. MAybe if I stroke the other dog while he is at a safe distance, or even swop leads with the owner??? So he sees I'm happy with the other dog myself- would be good for me as well as him! I think I shall just have to avoid big unleashed dogs that really set him off. But you're right, it makes what was a happy relaxed fun walk with your dog into something that is a bit tense and far less enjoyable. How old is Oscar and what breed is he?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi,

Oscar is 3 and a Cocker Spaniel which makes it harder in some ways because everyone expects them to be super friendly 

I have found quite often that if he likes the owner he likes the dog too.

No sense to much of it though, we met a black cocker bitch today and he loved her but generally i don't allow him to greet spaniels as he really isnt keen. She just bounced over off lead today so i had no choice, kept it light and upbeat and he was fine, he would have had a nice play off lead i am sure.

I think a turning point for me was realising that he really isn't attacking the other dog as such, it is all teeth and noise and looks awful but he has never bitten another dog. he actually has very good bite inhibition. 

I never let him greet puppies now though because i think of the longer term phsychological damage it could do to them which is a shame becaue it means i cant work with that element of his behaviour


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Yes thanks for that comment about them not using teeth - I've seen that Muffin isn't actually biting, it's all bluff. But it seems so scary when it's going on doesn't it? He seems fine when the other dog is on the leash, it's nearly always when they're off leash. 
Hi Leashed for Life - I googled the front clip harnesses and saw some clips of them in use. They look a lot like his existing H harness. I've just tried today using the harness and attaching his lead to the steel ring in the front of the chest, same position as in the ones in the film clips. I just walked him through town on it to see how he walks with it. He seems fine, no problems or worries. I can see how it gives me more control and how I can get him to turn away from a dog or situation, rather than him lunging and going up onto his hind legs. I've tightened the harness a bit so it sits more snugly as it was slipping a bit. I'm going to try walking him in this way and see how I get on. THanks.
Well today I bought a can of Pet Corrector (compressed air) NOT to use on Muffin as a deterrent but to have in my pocket so that I could use it in an emergency if he gets into a fight in order to shock the 2 dogs apart to stop it. Has anyone else used one of these? I thought I might feel braver if I have some back up plan, and therefore I will seem more confident and calm in the situation. I am determined that if he picks a fight I am NOT going to yell/scream or panic, which is what I have been doing - Muffin may have got even more whipped up by me! I shall hopefully try and stay calm and wait to see if he breaks off or submits after a few seconds; if not then I shall try the can to break them up and then grab him quick. But my main plan is to avoid the situation while encouraging him to do nice friendly QUICK meet and greets with any unknown dogs, and play ONLY with steady mature dogs who can check his behaviour - (by a quick protest snap at him??) I will be walking him on the flexi leash and front fastened H harness for all walks and trips where he is possibly going to meet Trouble.
How does this plan sound??


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

It does sound far worse than it is and is pretty embarrasing. People look quite shocked when Oscar flies off on one.

The only thing i would say with the Pet Corrector is that you will be inflicting that on someone elses dog that is probably just defending its corner from your little hooligan and the owner might not be too chuffed about it.

If your dogs reaction is a fearful one then the Corrector may just make him more nervous about other dogs. 

Personally i have found being firm with Oscar and getting between him and the other dog and standing infront of him with a firm NO, then asking for a sit. most owners i have encountered have removed their dog pretty sharpish or in even more cases the other dog removes itself from the confrontation. If a dog has returned the aggro then Oscar has tended to submit (because he is all bravado basically) but to be honest Oscar rarely picks these fights with dominant dogs that are likely to have a go back at him  he isn't that daft. 

For example he full on woofed at a huge Mastiff the other day who just looked at him totally bemused yet a few weeks earlier he met a Mastiff offlead and Oscar showed very submissive behaviour  

This has been going on some time with oscar and has never developed into what i would consider a "fight", some "exchanges" but no actual fights.


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> You could be describing my Oscar with this behaviour, it is almost identical. I have been working on it for a few months and it is improved but not resolved.
> 
> Things i have learnt,
> 
> ...


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Smiley Milo, Rainybow, L4L etc,
well I have BIG news!! Yesterday marked a huge turning point for Muffin and me! Firstly, I tried walking him with his harness fastened at the chest like the gentle leader ones, and it worked REALLY well!! I thought he would be too near the ground but it really changed the way I could control his movements and it was easy to encourage him to turn away rather than lunging forward. I also believe that I am seeing a marked difference in his and my own level of calmness which I'm attributing to the Bach essence Cherry Plum. I tried the Rescue Remedy for 3 days (not long I know) and didn't notice any difference in either of us, but after 2 days of cherry plum I was feeling MUCH calmer and more positive, and a friend remarked that Muffin seemed less manic and actually a bit slower running round at the field last evening. I also tested out the Pet Corrector Spray with him at home using the Vacuum Cleaner, which usually sets him off attacking it, and I usually have to sternly make him leave the room. As soon as he sprang towards it I did one quick puff in the air (without him seeing the can) and said 'Off!' sternly, and he immediately jumped back. I said 'sit', which he did and I praised him and gave him a treat. When I went to handle the Vacuum he went to lunge forward, and I just said 'Off!' again, and he immediately jumped back (no puff this time) and I told him to sit which he did. Lots of praise and treat. This was repeated 4 times at intervals and he is now just doing it every time no fuss!!We had agility class in the evening, which he loves, but he usually manages to fly at at least one dog while in the queue waiting for his go. He always performs really well in the ring. I decided to be ready with the Pet Corrector spray in case he went for another dog. I know the theory is that he might associate dogs with negative vibes, but because he has been well socialised before this, and has lots of positive contact with other dogs that he is comfortable with, I think that he is smart enough to realise it is to do with the aggressive lunging rather than dogs in general (at least that's what I'm hoping). He's shown in the past that he learns very quickly and remembers, so I thought it was worth a go. I asked the trainer and others in group if it was ok and they all said fine. So at his first nasty lunge I quickly puffed and said 'Off!' and he instantly stopped!! He looked a bit bemused and just looked at the other dog in surprise. Then I moved him away, got him to sit, and then praised him&treat. We then went back and stood in the line and he just sat nicely looking at me while I talked to him quietly. He had one other lunge a bit later, which I treated the same way, and other than that had quite a few short and positive meet and greets with others, and stood in the line pretty well, looking as relaxed as he has ever been at class.:wink: He also seemed more relaxed and calmer in the ring and performed very well indeed - no dancing away from me in excitement when I went to put his lead on at the end of his turn, which he normally does a bit of. I can't believe how changed he and I seem to be! I'm well aware that it is VERY early days, and I realise that the spray is not a solution in itself. But it has given me the confidence I hoped it would because I have seen that it DOES make him stop, so in an emergency situation at least I have got a tool to use - that in itself is making me feel more confident. When he shows aggression to another dog I'm going to do what I did with the vacuum cleaner, and build up the 'Off!' command followed by the reward for obeying the next command. I going to link this training with chest harness walking, only playing off leash with steady positive dogs, lots of social situations using the flexi leash to make sure he doesn't relapse when meeting new dogs, with praise for good meet and greets, and for the time being avoiding the dogs he feels most alarmed by and negative towards. I'm going to work on my own confidence by meeting owners of more scary breeds (only steady dogs tho!) and seeing if I can stroke them, hold their leashes, walk along with them for a bit (minus Muffin), so that I feel less scared myself and can give him more confidence. I'm also going to keep up with the Bach Cherry Plum for us both cos I really reckon its doing something!
I hope some of this story might help some of you guys out there. I'll keep you posted how we get on on the next few days. Love to Milo and Oscar - keep up the good work guys!!:wink:
ps Muffin's new name - Muffin Cherry Plum!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Glad you are making progress  

I love the bach remedies, very effective with animals and people imo


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> I also tested... the Pet Corrector Spray... at home using the Vacuum Cleaner, which usually sets him off
> attacking it, & I usually have to sternly make him leave the room.
> As soon as he sprang towards it I did one quick puff... (without him seeing the can) & said 'Off!' sternly,
> & he immediately jumped back. I said 'sit', which he did, & I praised him & gave him a treat. When I went
> ...


 - teaching him to tolerate the vacuum, vs see it as something that *"bites back"*, would IMO & IME 
be preferable to making him avoid it as an aversive.

- i would not combine this with other dogs; but then, i would not use it with the vacuum, either. however... 
the vacuum is at home; the risk of fallout to other situations is minimal. Other Dogs are everywhere; 
the risk of fallout due to association is massive. 


kath3kidz said:


> I'm going to link [the Pet-Corrector spray aversive] training with chest harness walking, only playing
> off-leash with steady positive dogs, *lots of social situations using the flexi leash* to make sure he doesn't
> relapse when meeting new dogs, with praise for good meet and greets, and for the time being avoiding
> the dogs he feels most alarmed by and negative towards.


i would not use a Flexi: 
- to get any leash, *he must pull*. 
- to keep any length he has, *he must keep pulling*. 
- to get more length, *he must pull harder & harder* as the tension on the spring increases.

all of that pulling means his *body posture* & _*social signals*_ are changed: 
he looks more aggressive & more intrusive, as he is leaning forward over his toes with his weight on his fore, 
pushing off his rear feet. This subtle change makes a bad first-impression.

a LOOSE [10 to 30-ft long] long-line does not have this effect on his body-language, & also avoids 
teaching & rewarding pulling on the leash. Any light line with a sturdy brass or bronze spring-clip will do; 
U can make Ur own at a big-box hardware store or a marine-supply [boater's supply] - they sell line by the foot, 
i'd avoid cotton as it absorbs water & gets heavy, also mildews & rots; polypropylene is often sharp & cuts U. 
test it by tugging a short length between both hands, to see if it CUTS or BURNS U, before cutting the length.

nylon is often a good compromise for light, strong, & smooth, but *watch* that U aren't burned 
by friction if he bolts.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

HI L4L (are you called that cos you know all about leashes??),
THanks for that advice re the flexi leash! I hadn't thought about how it operates at his end, and of course you are dead right, this defo is NOT the right way to go about it, as he will be pulling and so on. WOW! Why didn't I think of that?! It just shows how easy it is to get it wrong. I will get a long line like you describe, and use that instead. THanks a lot.
Re the vacuum - I have just vac'd my house with Muffin no probs! Yippee! I didn't use the spray at all or even go near it. It just reminded him 'Off!' and sat him at a safe distance (about 4 feet away) and then told him to 'Wait'. He sat beautifully and I got vac out and then praised&treated. Then switched on, praised and treated, then started gently vaccing away from him, with me between it and him, praising him for waiting and chatting calmly. Every so often I switched it off and then praised and resumed etc. He was fantastic! Only had one moment when he lost his cool and came towards it, and then saying 'Off' and pointing had him back in his spot sitting nicely again for a reward after a wait. I am so pleased. THat's the best he's ever been with the Vac! I take your point re dogs when out, but hey, whatever I do about this situation there will always be an element of liability because I can never control every dog that might or might not show up. But at least if the spray breaks up a fight situation in an emergency I've got something, because I sure as hell would be far too scared to try and break up a scrap with a big fierce dog on my own. It might just buy me some time and space. And hopefully he might just decide that fighting is not as much fun as playing!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I have used a corrector in the house with good effect but i have to say i have never considered using it with oscar "handbags" at other dogs because it would mean inflicting it on someone elses dog which could have negative consequences for their dog.

If i did use it i would expect some flack (forewarned is forearmed )


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm only thinking of a real emergency situation i.e. when the fight goes on and both dogs won't give in.... surely someone would rather have the fight stop??  BUt I see what you mean about traumatising other dogs.... hmmm not easy, this dog training, is it??


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> I'm only thinking of a real emergency situation i.e. when the fight goes on and both dogs won't give in.... surely someone would rather have the fight stop??  BUt I see what you mean about traumatising other dogs.... hmmm not easy, this dog training, is it??


If it was a proper fight situation then fair enough, its not much different than a bucket of water over them. I am just talking about for the "handbags" stuff


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Hi Smiley Milo, Rainybow, L4L etc,
> well I have BIG news!! Yesterday marked a huge turning point for Muffin and me! Firstly, I tried walking him with his harness fastened at the chest like the gentle leader ones, and it worked REALLY well!! I thought he would be too near the ground but it really changed the way I could control his movements and it was easy to encourage him to turn away rather than lunging forward. I also believe that I am seeing a marked difference in his and my own level of calmness which I'm attributing to the Bach essence Cherry Plum. I tried the Rescue Remedy for 3 days (not long I know) and didn't notice any difference in either of us, but after 2 days of cherry plum I was feeling MUCH calmer and more positive, and a friend remarked that Muffin seemed less manic and actually a bit slower running round at the field last evening. I also tested out the Pet Corrector Spray with him at home using the Vacuum Cleaner, which usually sets him off attacking it, and I usually have to sternly make him leave the room. As soon as he sprang towards it I did one quick puff in the air (without him seeing the can) and said 'Off!' sternly, and he immediately jumped back. I said 'sit', which he did and I praised him and gave him a treat. When I went to handle the Vacuum he went to lunge forward, and I just said 'Off!' again, and he immediately jumped back (no puff this time) and I told him to sit which he did. Lots of praise and treat. This was repeated 4 times at intervals and he is now just doing it every time no fuss!!We had agility class in the evening, which he loves, but he usually manages to fly at at least one dog while in the queue waiting for his go. He always performs really well in the ring. I decided to be ready with the Pet Corrector spray in case he went for another dog. I know the theory is that he might associate dogs with negative vibes, but because he has been well socialised before this, and has lots of positive contact with other dogs that he is comfortable with, I think that he is smart enough to realise it is to do with the aggressive lunging rather than dogs in general (at least that's what I'm hoping). He's shown in the past that he learns very quickly and remembers, so I thought it was worth a go. I asked the trainer and others in group if it was ok and they all said fine. So at his first nasty lunge I quickly puffed and said 'Off!' and he instantly stopped!! He looked a bit bemused and just looked at the other dog in surprise. Then I moved him away, got him to sit, and then praised him&treat. We then went back and stood in the line and he just sat nicely looking at me while I talked to him quietly. He had one other lunge a bit later, which I treated the same way, and other than that had quite a few short and positive meet and greets with others, and stood in the line pretty well, looking as relaxed as he has ever been at class.:wink: He also seemed more relaxed and calmer in the ring and performed very well indeed - no dancing away from me in excitement when I went to put his lead on at the end of his turn, which he normally does a bit of. I can't believe how changed he and I seem to be! I'm well aware that it is VERY early days, and I realise that the spray is not a solution in itself. But it has given me the confidence I hoped it would because I have seen that it DOES make him stop, so in an emergency situation at least I have got a tool to use - that in itself is making me feel more confident. When he shows aggression to another dog I'm going to do what I did with the vacuum cleaner, and build up the 'Off!' command followed by the reward for obeying the next command. I going to link this training with chest harness walking, only playing off leash with steady positive dogs, lots of social situations using the flexi leash to make sure he doesn't relapse when meeting new dogs, with praise for good meet and greets, and for the time being avoiding the dogs he feels most alarmed by and negative towards. I'm going to work on my own confidence by meeting owners of more scary breeds (only steady dogs tho!) and seeing if I can stroke them, hold their leashes, walk along with them for a bit (minus Muffin), so that I feel less scared myself and can give him more confidence. I'm also going to keep up with the Bach Cherry Plum for us both cos I really reckon its doing something!
> I hope some of this story might help some of you guys out there. I'll keep you posted how we get on on the next few days. Love to Milo and Oscar - keep up the good work guys!!:wink:
> ps Muffin's new name - Muffin Cherry Plum!


!!!!hey!!!!! well done you and well done Muffin you couldn't ask for a better out come could you? anyway we are making progress with Milo, his new collar came this morning and he let me put it on him with out any problem and we had a trial run and he's doing well with it. He's walking alot better and not pulling as much. The big test is when we meet other dogs I just hope that it improves and Milo's walks are a step in the right direction.:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Cheers Smiley Milo!
Glad your new harness is working well. I'm doing well with the chest fastening idea, he really walks differently and is far more responsive to being turned away from bother. Also I really rate the Cherry Plum stuff - I was totally sceptical about Bach essences and only tried it because I was desperate, and I noticed the difference on myself almost immediately, it really calmed me down and made me feel more hopeful. So I figure it must be doing sumething to him as well 
Rainbow - What is 'handbag' behaviour.....??


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Cheers Smiley Milo!
> Glad your new harness is working well. I'm doing well with the chest fastening idea, he really walks differently and is far more responsive to being turned away from bother. Also I really rate the Cherry Plum stuff - I was totally sceptical about Bach essences and only tried it because I was desperate, and I noticed the difference on myself almost immediately, it really calmed me down and made me feel more hopeful. So I figure it must be doing sumething to him as well
> Rainbow - What is 'handbag' behaviour.....??


Hi Katie, we have "Bach rescue remedy" and what we do is everytime we take him for walks, we rub some on Milo's snout and it does relax him a bit.
This collar that we have bought Milo, is simular to a halti but its not as extreme. It is more gentle and the lead fastens under the chin rather than the side of the mouth and when he tries to pull or lunge, because the collar fastens at the scruff of the neck it corrects him and the lead goes loose helping him to relax and focus on walking rather than barking and lunging at other dogs. Its not an over night fix but it does help alot and I am enjoying taking Milo for walks and I am more relaxed myself.
Milo has started to watch animal programs on TV, animal hospital, dogs 101 and of course the Dog whisperer. He sits in front of the tv and is glued until the program is finished.
At the moment he is laid on the floor in front of the tv because dogs 101 is coming on and he loves it.

I will keep you informed of his progress.

Duncan:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Glad your new collar is good. I'll try the RR on Muffin's snout - I'd been giving him some on a treat but maybe inhaling is better.
Yeah Muffin loves dog tv too! He LOVES Victoria Stillwell (so do I!) and of course Cesar M. ONce when he was little he was about to raid my bin in the lounge and Victoria said 'leave it!' sternly to a dog on the tv and he jumped back guiltily! He must think she can see him
Keep me posted how Milo is doing. Muffin still has quite a way to go but at least he is seeming to make a bit of progress. I stroked a Staffie when out shopping today as part of my own Pet Therapy!:blush2:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> Cheers Smiley Milo!
> Glad your new harness is working well. I'm doing well with the chest fastening idea, he really walks differently and is far more responsive to being turned away from bother. Also I really rate the Cherry Plum stuff - I was totally sceptical about Bach essences and only tried it because I was desperate, and I noticed the difference on myself almost immediately, it really calmed me down and made me feel more hopeful. So I figure it must be doing sumething to him as well
> Rainbow - What is 'handbag' behaviour.....??


LOL, "handbags" is what i call Oscars outbursts. Because it is all noise and bravado i like to refer to it as "Handbags" rather than Aggression, it is a reference to the expression "Handbags at Dawn" which kind of means all mouth and no trousers


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Glad your new collar is good. I'll try the RR on Muffin's snout - I'd been giving him some on a treat but maybe inhaling is better.
> Yeah Muffin loves dog tv too! He LOVES Victoria Stillwell (so do I!) and of course Cesar M. ONce when he was little he was about to raid my bin in the lounge and Victoria said 'leave it!' sternly to a dog on the tv and he jumped back guiltily! He must think she can see him
> Keep me posted how Milo is doing. Muffin still has quite a way to go but at least he is seeming to make a bit of progress. I stroked a Staffie when out shopping today as part of my own Pet Therapy!:blush2:


Hi again Katie, todays episode of dog whisperer was a dog with the same problem as Milo and though he was able to correct the dog and make him stay in a calm submisive state, he did say that with some dogs the anxiety problem can be deep rooted and my wife and I think that Milo's problems stem from when he was a puppy as his first owner was rather quick in finding a new owner using the excuse that he was chewing her older dogs ears, I thought that was what most puppies do when there is an older dog in the family, plus his obedience is very regimental the only thing he doesn't do is salute. I'm wondering if someones been heavy handed, I do hope this wasn't the case because he's didn't deserve it.
The plus side is now we have him and he only gets love and lots of cuddles here. :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

Duncan


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Awww! My Muffin gets lots of love and cuddles too! Glad Milo is now in such a loving home. We are off on holiday tomorrow to Yorkshire and then Wales, for a week with my Mum. Muffin has had a bath and brush and is looking very fluffy and puffy! Like a big powder puff He usually looks more raggle taggle!
Glad I know what handbags is now! Muffin is a handbagger, but will hopefully soon be an ex handbagger:wink:
HAve a good week everyone and I'll check up on you all next week.
Cheers
Kath


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## SMILEY MILO (Aug 21, 2011)

kath3kidz said:


> Awww! My Muffin gets lots of love and cuddles too! Glad Milo is now in such a loving home. We are off on holiday tomorrow to Yorkshire and then Wales, for a week with my Mum. Muffin has had a bath and brush and is looking very fluffy and puffy! Like a big powder puff He usually looks more raggle taggle!
> Glad I know what handbags is now! Muffin is a handbagger, but will hopefully soon be an ex handbagger:wink:
> HAve a good week everyone and I'll check up on you all next week.
> Cheers
> Kath


Hi Katie, !!ooh lovely!! hope you all have a great time and the weather stays nice for you, just don't come to Morecambe at the moment because its monsoon season and all of us here are battening down the hatches. The forcast for the next few days is sunshine and showers and it isn't looking too bad for Yorkshire so no matter what just have a great time, I'm sure that Muffin the diva will be enjoying himself and all the attention that he will be getting.

Anyway talk to you when you get back!!

Duncan:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

HI all,
Well I am finally back online after a long lapse, and I just wanted to tell you all that Muffin has finally turned the corner! I have used all the techniques and tools gathered from here, and with a lot of hard work and close attention, I think we have sorted our problem. He hasn't had a scrap with anyone since I was last on here!!!! YAY!!!:thumbup: Mind you, I watch him VERY carefully to ake sure there is no relapse. I am using Bach's remedy Cherry pLUM, also a Doreen PAige one for Aggression. I also am using the chest fastening harness as L4L suggested, and that has been brilliant! I found the book Click to Calm a great help, and full of really good practical tasks to work through the problems. What I do now, I make sure Muffin gets to a doggy place every day to practice his new social skills. I let him loose and when we are approaching another dog/s I first check that the owner is in control and the dog looks sociable, then say to him 'Go say Hello' in a nice cheery voice when we are a way off. ONce he approaches the dog I keep saying Good Boy and Hello in nice cheery tones, and then saunter by and call Muffin over to me to walk on, giving him praise and a treat once he has come to me. If the dog looks less sociable or likely to not want to play, or the owner looks cagey/puts the dog on a lead, I say to him Walk On and we walk past at a distance, and Muffin walks past carefully and calmly, and then gets a treat. If he goes too near, I say Leave It and he comes away for a treat. It is so great to be able to walk him with no fights and lots of fun games with other dogs!!
THanks everyone for the advice and help. How are you all getting ON? How is Milo and how is Rainybow?? Leashed for Life - WHY are you called that??!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> HI all,
> Well I am finally back online after a long lapse, and I just wanted to tell you all that Muffin has finally turned the corner! I have used all the techniques and tools gathered from here, and with a lot of hard work and close attention, I think we have sorted our problem. He hasn't had a scrap with anyone since I was last on here!!!! YAY!!!:thumbup: Mind you, I watch him VERY carefully to ake sure there is no relapse. I am using Bach's remedy Cherry pLUM, also a Doreen PAige one for Aggression. I also am using the chest fastening harness as L4L suggested, and that has been brilliant! I found the book Click to Calm a great help, and full of really good practical tasks to work through the problems. What I do now, I make sure Muffin gets to a doggy place every day to practice his new social skills. I let him loose and when we are approaching another dog/s I first check that the owner is in control and the dog looks sociable, then say to him 'Go say Hello' in a nice cheery voice when we are a way off. ONce he approaches the dog I keep saying Good Boy and Hello in nice cheery tones, and then saunter by and call Muffin over to me to walk on, giving him praise and a treat once he has come to me. If the dog looks less sociable or likely to not want to play, or the owner looks cagey/puts the dog on a lead, I say to him Walk On and we walk past at a distance, and Muffin walks past carefully and calmly, and then gets a treat. If he goes too near, I say Leave It and he comes away for a treat. It is so great to be able to walk him with no fights and lots of fun games with other dogs!!
> THanks everyone for the advice and help. How are you all getting ON? How is Milo and how is Rainybow?? Leashed for Life - WHY are you called that??!


Great progress :thumbup:

Keeping yourself upbeat and cheery is defintely a factor with Oscar.

I updated Oscar thread the other so check it out  It's called Hooligan Oscar


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

kath3kidz said:


> HI all,
> Well I am finally back online after a long lapse, and I just wanted to tell you all that Muffin has finally turned the corner! I have used all the techniques and tools gathered from here, and with a lot of hard work and close attention, I think we have sorted our problem. He hasn't had a scrap with anyone since I was last on here!!!! YAY!!!:thumbup: Mind you, I watch him VERY carefully to ake sure there is no relapse. I am using Bach's remedy Cherry pLUM, also a Doreen PAige one for Aggression. I also am using the chest fastening harness as L4L suggested, and that has been brilliant! I found the book Click to Calm a great help, and full of really good practical tasks to work through the problems. What I do now, I make sure Muffin gets to a doggy place every day to practice his new social skills. I let him loose and when we are approaching another dog/s I first check that the owner is in control and the dog looks sociable, then say to him 'Go say Hello' in a nice cheery voice when we are a way off. ONce he approaches the dog I keep saying Good Boy and Hello in nice cheery tones, and then saunter by and call Muffin over to me to walk on, giving him praise and a treat once he has come to me. If the dog looks less sociable or likely to not want to play, or the owner looks cagey/puts the dog on a lead, I say to him Walk On and we walk past at a distance, and Muffin walks past carefully and calmly, and then gets a treat. If he goes too near, I say Leave It and he comes away for a treat. It is so great to be able to walk him with no fights and lots of fun games with other dogs!!
> THanks everyone for the advice and help. How are you all getting ON? How is Milo and how is Rainybow?? Leashed for Life - WHY are you called that??!


Sounds good. I'm glad you are using the click to calm book, and rewards-based training, rather than continuing using the pet corrector spray and any other things you may pick up from popular TV programs (no Victoria Stilwell's...). Reactivity and aggression comes from an anxiety and fear (and sometimes medical aspects), so when we punish dogs for their reactions, it does nothing but 'snap them out of it' and basically suppresses a behaviour, rather than changes a dog's perception. This is where rewards-based training comes into its own: re-conditioning the dog to associate certain things with good experiences, so they don't feel the need to become hostile.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> *Leashed for Life* - WHY are you called that??!


because it's not so much the dogs that are attached to me, as my being attached to dogs. 

also, leashes are the world's cheapest insurance - & many people here let their dogs loose in unsafe places, 
then expect everyone to sympathize when something happens [the dog is hit by a car, gets in a fight, 
bites a person - justifiably or no; has a pad slashed by broken glass, etc].

leashes are also the easiest way to help ensure compliance: MY RULE - 
the mathematics of dog behavior - 
"the likelihood of any dog complying with a cue is _*inversely proportional*_ 
to the dog's distance from their handler."

BTW the leash is not always visible - but when it's not, the connection is much-more visible. :thumbup:


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Wow! Sounds a bit mathematical for me!:scared: Anyway at least I know now! My partner thought you might be in jail serving time as a 'Lifer' !!!
Anyway, keep cool everyone and thanks for all the nice comments.
Cheers 4 now
KAth


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Rainybow! I'll check out Hooligan Oscar thanks!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> My partner thought you might be in jail serving time as a 'Lifer' !!!


watch a lot of late-nite telly, eh?...  That's a boardinghouse reach!


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