# Feeling helpless



## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hello,

I picked up two kittens today from a man who had to give them away because his wife is pregnant.

I have brought them home and have tried as best I can. They have been hiding away wherever they can. I have tried feeding them, playing with them and just leaving them to their own devices.

I don't know what to do now?

Best,

Ronald


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## Kat1703 (Nov 22, 2011)

Hi Ronald - Try not to worry too much, kitties can take a while to get used to and trust new surroundings and people! We brought a couple of kittens home a few weeks ago and Sybil was the same - she hid for the first couple of weeks and only came out when no one was around at night to use litter tray and eat!

I just made sure I spent a lot of time near her hiding place (not making contact) so she could get used to me, I left an old jumper near her and basically just let her come out of her shell in her own time! A fishing rod toy did help though 

She's now such an affectionate kitty, follows me everywhere and demands many a belly rub 

I'm sure they'll be fine, just need time to figure things out 

A lot of people recommend limiting new kittens to one room for a few days so they get used to that first, then leave the door open so they can gradually explore the rest of the house.

I didn't quite have that option as I wasn't aware of this method when we got them and she bolted straight into her hiding place under the dining table in the living room! Thought it was better to leave her where she was comfortable rather than frighten her by trying to catch her (fat chance!) and move her into a new room.


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

that is completly normal!
limit them to only one room.
just sit down in the room and do not pick up or play with the kittens, wait for the kittens to come to you! i found reading very good because they want to know why you arent paying any attention to them. 
once they are out, if they dont eat or use there litter tray dont worry, because they are in a new environment they are obviously very scared! Leo didnt seem to eat or drink for a very long time when we got him!
just think how you would feel if you were that tiny and you came to this big unfamiliar space-you wouldnt love the perosn that took you there right away!

it is a very hard task to do, just remember NOT to rush it- just keep calm


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Ingrid's tip is very good. I used to help socialize feral kittens in a rescue. I would sit on the floor, totally ignore the kittens and read out loud, preferably a sweet story, so my voice would be very gentle and loving, so they would get used to a human's bulk, scent and voice.

In time, they would come and sniff my feet.....


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## Chewie39 (Jul 24, 2011)

theronstar said:


> I picked up two kittens today from a man who had to give them away because his wife is pregnant.


Poor little guys, they are probably very confused and, if the people you got them from care little enough about them that they "have" to give them away for such an inane reason (perhaps I'm rushing to judge but being pregnant isn't a reason, losing interest because you are pregnant is the usual "reason" ) then they may not have had much time or effort put into looking after them so far. They must be really scared.

How old are they? You have had some good advice, I'd go slowly, confine them to one room with everything they need and spend lots of time just sitting near them without trying to engage them until they start to feel a bit braver. Good luck.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hello,

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the advice. In hindsight now, I remember maybe I was trying too hard to communicate with them last night. 

E.g. I did try to pick them up and show them another area of the house. They always retreated to a cupboard or behind a sofa. 

I now know it is best to leave just them them in whatever space this is! (In my mind I do kinda lol that they think they are hiding from me when I fully know where they are).

I have left a litter tray and a food/water bowl in close proximity and can see they have been using them. 

I was actually speaking to another lady who I was going to rehouse a kitten from two days ago. She said new owners were constantly bringing it back because they would complain it was hiding and did not come out! It's crazy that people would not take the time to get advice about these sorts of things and just assume the cat is a problem one. Apparently it now even more shy.

Also I was going to say I do agree that the reasoning around having cats through a pregnancy did strike me a little odd too!

Thanks so much for your help guys.I feel much better prepared now.

Ronald


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_My two hid for days, probably the first week or so, and i so wanted them to sit on my lap for a cuddle, but now, they are 8 months old, and NEVER OFF my lap,  it does take time, however tempting it may be to try to pick them up, leave it until they come to you, they will be snuggled up on your lap in no time.,_


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Try not to worry, it's normal.

We rescued a two year old Ragdoll and she hid right on the top floor of our house under a bed. She didn't even go to the toilet for 48 hours, I rang the rescue group in tears and they reassured me it was fine.

We just left her to it. A day later we had about 6 people around the house who wanted to meet her. We explained she was shy and we were just leaving her be. An hour later she walked into the full room, rolled over and we never looked back. :thumbup1:


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## louiserp1 (Jul 14, 2010)

You could also make sure the litter tray isn't too close to the food, and not in a draught. They will soon be driving you mad!


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## Simon's cats (Aug 14, 2011)

You are big
You are scary
Your are unknown
They don't know where they are
They don't feel safe

How would you feel in their shoes. 

Leave them to hide. Tomorrow go in the room and sit on the floor and talk to them. Don't try and stroke them or pick them up, just talk to them.

Leave an unwashed T Shirt in the room so they get to know your scent and take it slow

Soon you will be begging for peace as they take over your life!


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

EAC said:


> You are big
> You are scary
> Your are unknown
> They don't know where they are
> ...


Lol, especially when they are jumping on your back in the early hours and running round the house doing a herd of wilderbeest impression.

As what eveyone has said, take it easy and do it at their pace x


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey,

Thanks guys for the updates. I sat on my laptop when picking up a kitten the other day. So I´ve been unable to get online. I´m on my friends´now. 

I have been observing the two of them over the past few days with your advice. One is getting very involved with my stuff e.g. almost jumping on the hob when I am cooking.

A frustration I have at the moment is with their eating patterns though at first I guess it was just that they were not eating due to nerves etc.

Much more so with my inquisitive cat I was talking about above, he doesn´t seem to eat his food I put out for him and is all over me when I am trying to eat. I feel bad to eat. I put out some Felix pouches and some Feline Fayre dry food and he doesn´t really eat it. It gets worse to cope with when he comes up to me and starts miaowing pitifully.

On the upside he is settled I think because I tried to take him into the back garden with a firm grip in case he bolted. He ran back into the house so I guess he is happy enough to call my place his home!

Ronald


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Hey,
> 
> Thanks guys for the updates. I sat on my laptop when picking up a kitten the other day. So I´ve been unable to get online. I´m on my friends´now.
> 
> ...


just make sure you dont feed the cat your food because that will be a bad habit!!!!!!!!!!
just leave the food out, he may just eat it while your not looking


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## kinley (Oct 30, 2011)

Im guessing he doesnt like that food so it might be best to try another.

i was just wondering why you was using a firm grip and taking him to garden. Im thinkin that alone will upset him.

Ps we need pictures


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Ingrid25 said:


> just make sure you dont feed the cat your food because that will be a bad habit!!!!!!!!!!
> just leave the food out, he may just eat it while your not looking


It´s not the intention to feed my cat human food. I know it is unsuitable for their diet to do this.

I think he eventually does eat the food I leave out for him. The difficulty is that whilst I am eating I want to do so without him trying to eat from my plate. At this time his food will be out btw. Do you understand what I was writing now?


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

kinley said:


> Im guessing he doesnt like that food so it might be best to try another.
> 
> i was just wondering why you was using a firm grip and taking him to garden. Im thinkin that alone will upset him.
> 
> Ps we need pictures


Hmm, again, thanks for responding too but I guess you were unsure what I was writing. I gave the brands of the pet foods I am trying with the pets in order to get some feedback as to whether or not these brands are suitable to feed pets with.

If you simply say to me that they probably don´t like it - which is something I´m kinda gathering myself already - I´m not really able to improve my food choices for them.

I´ll try and ask it in another way. Is it common for cats not to like Felix pouches or Feline Fayre dry food.

As to why I had to hold him firmly, he keeps eyeing the window when I have one open to air the house for example. I needed to feel in his body if he would try to escape if he could see an open door/window.

When I took him to the garden he ran back inside the house. This gave me assurance that he is feeling settled here and that I can leave a window open without increasing my heart rate.

Having said that he did go out of a window now and he has not returned as yet 

Finally, with regards to the pics, I reckon I want to take them for some pet grooming then put some pics up.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Never ever leave a window open if your cat is not alowed outside. If you leave it wide open, like in this pic, use an insect screen or something like this










If you have a cantilever window, ALWAYS secure it with one of these,




























or leave it open in ventilation mode only, like this










Otherwise this may happen, and cats cannot free themselves from this position and will receive massive internal injuries and probably die, like the cat in this pic










You really don't want to know how many cats die this way....


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

Your kittens should stay in until they are old enough to be street wise. The biggest group of cats that get run over are those under 2.

In addition, they should stay in for at least 6 weeks, so they know home.

My 2 rescue cats have been with me for 2 and a half weeks. The first few days they mostly hid in the cupboard under the stairs. As I type (from bed) Harry is curled up on my legs asleep and Sabrina is sat on my pillow meiowing at me because she wants breakfast! So with a bit of time and trust building (as you are starting to discover) they will come around.

Hope the other kitten comes home, and realises where home is. I am planning to take my two out on a lead at first so they can learn their territory and where home is before I open the Cat flap and windows!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Too true.
My Gaudi has been with me since August, but he is still too young to go out. He is 7 months.
I want to let him out for the first time when the weather is really horrible, so he wants to go back in ASAP. But the longer he stays indoors, the better. Young cats are so impulsive and playful....


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

I hope your kitten has come home. 

Cats are fussy creatures, especially when it comes to food, I can feed one brand/flavour and they will love it, feed it again a few days later and they turn their noses up and won't touch it. I feed my two a few different brands and flavours and rotate these so they don't get bored. 

I feed a good quality wet food some I order online from ZooPlus (Warning: ZooPlus is very addictive ) as it's a high meat content food you don't feed as much and it does work out cheaper in the long run. The brands I feed are, wet Bozita, Smilla, Grau, Animonda Carny and the occassional dry Orijen and Applaws. And Butchers Classic's that I get from Tesco. 

Try a different brand and mix a little in with the Felix/Feline Fayre and see how they get on. 

Keep us posted on your little mans return.


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## Amin (Jul 31, 2009)

Kittens should Not be out, You should not be taking kitty out to the garden either, and shut windows. I hope your kitty comes back soon, when he does Don't let them out again. Plenty advice on here (free too). 

Now can we have pics please.


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## kinley (Oct 30, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Hmm, again, thanks for responding too but I guess you were unsure what I was writing. I gave the brands of the pet foods I am trying with the pets in order to get some feedback as to whether or not these brands are suitable to feed pets with.
> 
> If you simply say to me that they probably don´t like it - which is something I´m kinda gathering myself already - I´m not really able to improve my food choices for them.
> 
> ...


hi hun, i just simply meant some cats will eat anything and everything put in front of them, where as with some cats you could put 4/5 different foods in front of them and them not try either, but there will be something they like eventually.

even thou he ran back in the house, it doesnt mean he always will, and i believe he's too young and too new to your house to be going out just yet hun

i didnt mean anything bad by my post just giving you advice hun


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## kinley (Oct 30, 2011)

Amin said:


> Kittens should Not be out, You should not be taking kitty out to the garden either, and shut windows. I hope your kitty comes back soon, when he does Don't let them out again. Plenty advice on here (free too).
> 
> Now can we have pics please.


hiya, i cant see a post where it says theres a kitty missing


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## Izzie (Aug 18, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Having said that he did go out of a window now and he has not returned as yet


Kinley, it was here.


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## kinley (Oct 30, 2011)

Izzie said:


> Kinley, it was here.


thanks hun

oh dear thats not good, hope he comes back


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## Amin (Jul 31, 2009)

kinley said:


> hiya, i cant see a post where it says theres a kitty missing


If kitty got out of a window and has not been seen since, To me its lost.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

How old are your kittens and are they both neutered.You should be feeding them the same food the person that had them before was feeding them,until they have settled.I say "person" as I dont know what else to call them.Anyone who parts with kittens for such a pathetic reason did not deserve to have them.They sound as though they are very scared/confused souls which is hardly surprising.No kittens should be allowed outdoor access until neutered and at least 10/12 months old.i hope your kitten comes back and when it does please try to keep all windows/doors closed so that neither of them escapes again.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

You have probably suss everything now.

I keep my kittens in one room, I never thought about them hiding, I was thinking of litter tray training at least accidents are in one room not all over the house.

If you want to open a window keep the kitten out of the room you are airing. I have an outdoor pen attach to the back of the house. I have to open the kitchen window for them to gain access. Its a perfect solution for us mine are all indoor cats.

As for food, some people will lean towards a good quality kibble others a good quality wet food. What I find is the kittens/cats will tell you what they want. I have wasted loads of money because I believe this or that brand is the quality food I want to give my boys and the little sods turn their noses up at it. They will eat James Well Beloved but prefer Purina for Indoor cats, anything else is left uneaten. Wet food is Felix so may people will be shocked but they eat it and are all a good weight, happy and healthy. 

I hope you find the missing kitten. Try strong smelling Sardines or Tuna to entice the little one back.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for your advice once again.

My cat came in again a little later. I have guests for Christmas and it turns out they wanted to close the windows because it was cold! They believed they would hear him wanting to come in.

As it happens I found him sitting on the window sill when I went outside to see if he returned. Grrr.

The only reason I had let him out is because nothing I seemed to be doing was making him happy - food, play, privacy.

I am glad to know that they can be undecided with foods and that it is not simply a poor choice on my part. I will keep the food changing and dynamic if this can help. I´m noticing they will eventually get to it but not after following me round for a while as if I haven´t put out food!

My next challenge is my other kitten must have gone out of a window too as I cannot find him in any of his hiding places. I´m hoping second time lucky though I do feel like I have used up my good fortune. I will be more careful and it´s funny because I was almost considering letting my restless kitten here with me now out again but am reading your advice against it.

The problem I am facing which led me to think they wanted some more freedom was that one of them is just following me around non stop miaowing pitifully when I have already put things like litter tray/food/water in place.

I have attached pics now. Tabby is the returned one. My black cat isn´t visible.

They are 8 month olds and I plan to get them neutered in the New Year. I got them 4 days ago so I was hard pressed to organise it before then.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Has the lost kitty returned yet??
If not, it is high time to report him lost on every internet site dedicated to lost and found pets, to inform all vets and rescues in your area and to go door to door with a good picture of your kitty.

I don't think he will run to you if you go and look for him, given that he is still scared of humans (in this case, you)

I do hope he shows up soon, but I fear the worst. This kitty has not bonded with the house or with you at all, yet. He is just a scared little baby who doesn't know where to run.

I only hope he is not going to pay the ultimate price for being allowed to escape, but will somehow find his way home again.

If he does, DO keep him in for the next 2 or 3 months at least.
They have to be chipped, neutered, been living with you for at least 6 to 8 weeks, have bonded well with you and be at least about 10 months old before you should let them out.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> Has the lost kitty returned yet??
> If not, it is high time to report him lost on every internet site dedicated to lost and found pets, to inform all vets and rescues in your area and to go door to door with a good picture of your kitty.
> 
> I don't think he will run to you if you go and look for him, given that he is still scared of humans (in this case, you)
> ...


Hey,

Somehow he had found his way into my almost closed suitcase. The other cat was lingering near it and I went to pick him up actually. Had the other not made me double take that he was inside I would have never have known the difference!

That said he looked very pissed off that I had found him - some hissing. I find it phenomenal he has been completely still in that same spot for the last 12 hours. No food, no litter tray.

I guess I am going to have to leave him be as much as I want to see him exploring or something.

I feel that I can trust the grey one outdoors even though he is just 8 months. He has sniffed around when on the window sill but always darts back in when I see him. That said until I can at least microchip them I don´t want even him outdoors.

Thank you so much for the pointers there but this situation has definitely shown me that I can´t take their whereabouts strongly enough!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Good thing he didn't go out.
But still, I would make sure they stay in till they have been with you for at least 6 weeks and have bonded with you as well as with the house.
The problem is that they can get spooked outside, and they will bolt. The only way you can at least be reasonably sure they will bolt towards home is if they fully trust you as their safe haven. Not just the house, but you, too.

To be honest, I cannot imagine you can be so relaxed about a new cat going out. I have had cats all my life, I grew up with them, and over the past 17 years I have shared my life with 15 cats (not all at the same time, of course), all indoor as well as outdoor.
I have lost 2 to road accidents, one to FIP, one to acute heart failure and 3 to old age, and 2 have gone missing because they got themselves locked in somewhere (both turned up alive, thank goodness, though one of them was injured).

And I still have sleepless nights, the first time a 'new' cat will be going out, and I am a mental wreck every time one of them doesn't show up at mealtime. Whenever a new cat turns out not to have an interest in the cat flap, or not to understand how it works, I am very relieved. Because it means they will be safely indoors a little longer. I tend to get typically outdoor cats, former strays, semi-ferals, so I cannot really keep them in, but I sigh with relief every time I get them all together again at their supper.

A friend of mine has lost 4 cats in 5 years time. Two killed by a car, and the others just disappeared, never to be seen again. Two of them managed to escape when they were deemed too young and 'new' to be allowed outside, and they never made it home after their first adventure outside.


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## kerfuffle (Nov 23, 2010)

theronstar said:


> I feel that I can trust the grey one outdoors even though he is just 8 months. He has sniffed around when on the window sill but always darts back in when I see him. That said until I can at least microchip them I don´t want even him outdoors.


8 month old male cats can impregnate an entire female cat. They come into sexual maturity as young as 6 months. Please don't let him out until he's been done and wait 5-6 weeks after surgery before letting him out, if that is your intention. Do your bit of controlling the stray/feral cat population.

Also, unneutered cats tend to be more aggressive - their personality may change for the better once neutered.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

And an unneutered male will wander a lot further in search of a female and may get lost far more easily. They may roam for miles, even if they are well settled in their home....


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Thanks guys for the further updates. 

I am sorry to hear that you and your friends lost cats to road accidents. I never knew it was so bad. It does definitely drive home to me that I should not encourage them to go outdoors. To be honest he has been good today. He looked at the window for the morning but now is perfectly content to just be indoors (grey).

With regard to your friends who lost cats. Would microchipping have made a difference to whether they would have been found or not?

Jiskefet, what is FIP. And one more general question. Naturally are cats in or outdoor animals?

Ronald


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

They can be indoor as well as outdoor. Most cats that are raised as indoor cats adapt very well. They do need adequate stimulation, though. Opportunities to play, run, climb and interact with other cats and/or humans.

All my cats are microchipped. But as long as they hide inside someone's house or shed, it is of no use.....

My cats are outdoor cats, I live in a rather secluded area, not much traffic, so I adopted a few semi-feral cats, who can not adjust to indoor life. But even though it is so quiet, here, I lost 2 cats to road accidents in 17 years.

FIP is caused by a virus, a lethal mutation of a very common but harmless corona virus. The harmless variant is very contageous, but once it mutates into FIP, it hardly spreads from cat to cat. The most common symptoms are abdominal or pleural fluid. The cat simply becomes lethargic, and one by one, the organs shut down. There is no sure test for FIP, as it only shows contact with the (harmless) corona virus, but there is no proof if the cat still carries the virus, and if it has mutated.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey guys, 

I decided to stick to my own thread. I hope this is OK. I just wanted to update and discuss really.

I leave fresh water in a bowl for my cats every day. Yet they still prefer to try and drink the water out of the dishes in the sink or out of the toilet bowl - even though the toilet bowl has that blue stuff.

Also the black cat is still scared of me when I go near him at times. He will hiss and I am almost scared he will swipe at me! I say that then some days he will come and purr on my lap. Jekyll and Hyde if you ask me.

I´ve only had them for 2 weeks now and they´ve not ran out the window. They seem happy to watch the world go by. The hustle and bustle of the passers by and cars scare them back in. 

They seem to want to eat non stop if I am honest. I would kind of want them to go out and exercise the food off. I respect your reservations about road safety though.

What would you say about the effect of neutering on a cat´s weight?

Sorry about my ramblings and thanks in advance


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Testosterone stops the production of growth hormone, so the younger you neuter a tom, the bigger and sleeker a cat will grow.
Testosterone will make a cat shorter, sturdier and more masculine-looking


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I decided to stick to my own thread. I hope this is OK. I just wanted to update and discuss really.
> 
> ...


The black kitten may not be as confident as the other one if he is friendlier towards you, it may take a little more time and paitence, stick with it, I'm sure he'll come round in his own time.

Some cats won't drink out of their own bowls, my mums old cat used to prefer to drink from a pint glass or the tap. If they won't drink from their bowls, getting them a water fountain may help. With regards to the toilet, make sure you keep the lid down to stop them from drinking the Blue cleaner.

Kittens do eat alot, my Seb would eat little and often, but when his bowl was empty I would fill it up again, he doesn't seem to eat as much as he used to, he's coming up to 6 months. He's always running around the house like a loony, so gets plenty of exercise, I even run around with him sometimes :lol:

Would love to see some pics


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## Kat1703 (Nov 22, 2011)

When I used to put water down in a bowl - my kittens wouldn't even sniff it. Ever since we got the water fountain, they drink lots, even on a wet diet!

This is the one I got: Cat Mate Pet Fountain: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

Very cheap, easy to clean and fill, silent and the kitties love it


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Thanks guys.

Will you give your cat´s milk beyond kitten age?


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hello,

I´ve encountered my next episode with the cats (both boys) and I am hoping I could ask for your help once again.

It´s about fights.... Are fights an inevitable thing that will occur between cats when you let them outdoors or is there something I can do to minimise them coming in with war wounds?

Thanks,

Ronald


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

If they arent neutered they will act like king pins and try and dominate the area lol, as well as impregenating every female not spayed around town, as for milk I dont think its good to give to them to much it can give them butt issues like runny shitt, but Im not certain on that


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey,

Thanks for that. I was feeling like neutering them would be as barbaric as declawing them though I´ll do it as soon as the local vet can take them on.

As for the runny stuff - my wardrobe this morning coincides with what you postulated!

Ronald


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Hey,
> 
> Thanks for that. I was feeling like neutering them would be as barbaric as declawing them though I´ll do it as soon as the local vet can take them on.
> 
> ...


You really need to neuter them if you want to prevent fights and generally make them calmer and happier!! I agree it can seem barbaric, but make sure you find a good vet and all should be fine. Neutering boys is much simpler than spaying girls. And yes, milk will most probably upset their tums!


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## Staysee (Oct 19, 2009)

Agree with leaving them to get on with it for most cats but our last two who we got in 2009 i believe [see, already time flies haha] did not go down the hiding route at all, right little buggars they were....scoffed food from the word go [they are rescue kitties] and played alot with a few toys we bought them and that evening one of them Jenson was on my lap but not curled up, he was asleep in my arms like a baby! Crazy cats haha he still does the same when he wants snuggles but does sleep on laps when he wants to sleep

Good luck with them!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Neutering may also help the black cat to get more fothcoming towards you.
Neutered toms tend to be more human-oriented and social than entire toms.
It will also minimize the risk of them roaming, as they will not be looking for mates.

Do remember that it will take a couple of weeks for testosterone levels to drop and for them to become sterile. So keep them in for at least 2 or 3 weeks after neutering.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hello,

So for a while my cats settled in. They had been home for 2 months just to ensure they know this is home.

I let them out because all the black cat ever did was hide behind the sofa. His tabby brother was always curious then and is now.

What I am finding is the black cat is coming home less and less. Even when he goes to sleep he does so in a corner of the garden even though I´m sure the bed is more comfy for him.

What is surprising me at the moment is given how soaking wet the rain is that he is out there facing that then just coming indoors and maybe shock, horror, having to socialise. 

In a way I feel happier for him that he lives the way he does because I am near enough certain he would be behind the sofa had he been home.

One thing that may explain why they are indifferent about the rain (tabby goes outdoors as well in the rain) is because I gave them a bath now and again. 

Best,

Ronald


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm assuming the cats are still entire and haven't been neutered? If so, please stop letting them go outside, the black one is probably off impregnating all the local non-spayed females.

How old are both these cats by the way? I've missed quite a few of the pages of this thread.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Better keep them indoors, especially the black cat. If you let him roam, he will never get socialized.

One way to get a cat's trust is to give him a save room in the house, and if you go there with him, sit on the floor or lie down on a mattress on the floor, and don't pay any attention to the cat at all. Read a book out loud, preferably a loving, tender story, a children's story or a poem, or talk to the cat without looking at hiom. Tell him sweet memories, or your tender feelings for him.

Whatever you do, do not look straight at him, but sideways, and if you look in his general direction, almost close your eyes and blink a lot. This is cat language for: I am no threat to you, I see you and acknowledge and respect you. Licking your lips also means I am comfortable in your presence, and or stroking your arms or legs (washing yourself) is a sign you are confused about the 'other cat's' intentions and you are taking a time out.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I'm assuming the cats are still entire and haven't been neutered? If so, please stop letting them go outside, the black one is probably off impregnating all the local non-spayed females.
> 
> How old are both these cats by the way? I've missed quite a few of the pages of this thread.


Hey,

They both still feel too small for me to want to neuter them. I have spoken with all the other cat owners near me and their cats are already neutered.

The grey cat is very sociable so I don´t feel I have to make any effort with him whatsoever. Black cat has paid a visit these last two days which was great of him. A friend of mine also said they had noticed him in doors a few days ago too. Though he does head back out again shortly after.

To be honest at the time of posting this I had not seen him indoors in weeks. That he has come back has made me happy that this is still home for him.

Funny enough I am writing this now and he has come in again and is chilling on the floor. His brother always goes over to greet him when he arrives but he always hisses at him if he comes too close.

If I am being entirely honest I think he has this kind of personality that he has and we won´t be able to engineer him to be the ´ideal´ cat? In a weird way, I am growing to like his quirkiness. ;-)

Thanks,

Ronald


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Your first post about these cats is 4 months old, which means these cats are now at least about 7 months old. They really should have been neurered by now. And as long as you refuse to neuter them, you should keep them indoors.

It is not just their mating with entire females, but they run a very real risk of getting lost, getting run over and contracting diseases throught mating.

Moreover, entire toms SPRAY!!!!!
They may not do so in your house, because their territorium is not challenbed by other cats in there. But they will spray in and around other people's houses, especially with people who have cats. We have one single entire tom in the neighbourhood, but he is spraying against doors and cat flaps and if he gets the chance, he ventures inside a house and sprays inside, too. 
I know of people who had a lot of damage when they tried to chase him out of the house after they caught him spraying in their bedroom. The cat raced through their living room and kitchen and broke some antiques and crockery.

Lots of people in the neighbourhood have been trying to catch him and deliver him to a rescue for years, hoping that the owner will not claim him and he will be neutered, and I know of at least 2 people who tried to shoot him.

Is that the future you want for your cats? 
And is that the way you wish to treat your neighbours? Having your cats ruin their houses?
If your cat entered my house, sprayed on my furniture and broke my possessions, I would most certainly have you pay for the damages, including a professional company cleaning my house


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/232086-i-blame-you.html


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey,

I read your poem. It was very touching.

I have been dormant the last few months as I just got along with raising the cats.

I let them go into the garden as soon as I felt comfortable that they wouldn't run away. The first few times were nervewracking for me but all was well in the end.

However the black cat begun to come home less. I think he was more of a wild cat anyway. He never interacted at all at home and just hissed and growled.

He'd come through the window for dinner but then that was it. He even stopped coming home for dinner so I guess someone else was feeding him as he looked fine to me when I would see him in the neighbourhood.

He'd just run away if he saw me nearby. I could never lure him home so I just left him alone.

The grey cat has been great company. He comes to the shops with me now and again and will always greet me even though he spends most of his time outdoors.

I know there are many owners who believe cats are better off at home due to cars, diseases etc. but I truly think they are better off leaping and bounding over walls then docile at home.

More recently I have been feeling bad for my grey cat. He is very friendly and I feel a lot of the reason for him being out so much was in order to have interactions with other cats.

It's funny because the neighbours would observe all the cats gathering on the fences at 3am yowling at one another now and again.

Two weeks ago my grey cat came home with a ginger and white cat. He was really lovely as he'd just come in for some dinner and then go again. Though after a few days he basically moved in.

He was really sweet as he was really affectionate. I felt my cat was happier as he was going out a lot less and was less irritable if I tried to stroke him. 

Sadly there was a lost and found poster within a few days thus I felt bad and then gave back the cat.

In the aftermath of that I decided to get another cat, also because the previous owner told me that all the black cat did was bully his brother.

I went on Gumtree and I saw a lady who had posted there about a tom that would come to her house for dinner. She said that the last owners just upped and left without him.

She said he was very much an outdoor cat and just needed someone to feed him and take him in if it gets cold.

Her daughter was allergic to him, which was their issue.

They brought him last night and I guess your help from when these guys arrived kicked in. 

I've just let him go and find his private space but I have left him food and a litter tray nearby.

It's weird because my grey cat could not 'sense' a cat was here when he got home but when he saw him he was a little shocked.

There was some growling and sniffing although I think he has accepted him.

Now I get to the really interesting point. I woke up this morning and was wiping the sleep from my eyes as I walked towards my laptop. Something bolted past me and to my surprise it was black cat trying to escape before I could get near him.

I was literally dumbfounded because he has not been in the house since April! I just had to conclude that my grey cat had gone and told him there was someone new home and he as the house leader was coming to basically state he runs things even though he is not physically here!

I went out earlier on thinking about whether this means he may be coming back home. Thus when I got to my front door earlier this suspicion was to be confirmed.

I could see him in the front window watching the world go by. Quickly, as I entered the house I raced to the kitchen to lock the window whilst he was occupied.

I then went to greet him knowing that him bolting was going to be fruitless this time! He ran to the kitchen but with no escape plan.

I Skyped his previous owners to show him to them. He got a bit aggressive but the grey cat growled at him to show he was on my side.

Now the black cat is just sitting on the counter but growls at me if I go near him. He's not going anywhere so he'll just have to stick it out and become nice, else he is getting neutered.

I'll let you know how the 3rd cat settles in.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Getting them neutered would be the best thing to do anyway as you are letting them all outside.

It can also calm them down, stop them being so territorial so they dont fight other cats, and stop them roaming.

Have they all had their vaccinations? If you are letting them out without being neutered they are much more likely to fight, and thus sustain injuries from other cats which can result in them becoming infected with all sorts of diseases.

Thats listing a few benefits for _you_, without going into how unethical it is to let your entire toms out to add to the problem of unwanted kittens.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ron, you seem like a reasonable kind of guy and an animal lover, and so I am at a loss to understand why you have left your cats un-neutered It is such an unkind thing to do! You are shortening their lives, and exposing them to serious diseases caught through sexual contact, such as Feline Aids. 

If you are on a low income or welfare benefits you can get vouchers from the RSPCA or the CPL to pay the vets fees for the neutering. 

Please, I beg you, do the right thing by your cats!


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## egyptianreggae (May 26, 2012)

Ron, you seem to feel that being neutered would be a punishment for bad behaviour in your cats. Really, you would be doing them all a massive favour if you were to have them neutered, and it could provide a far more practical solution to the problem of the wildness of your black cat than expecting him to "stick it out and become nice." You can't impose your will on a cat like that, it just won't work.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I took in an 18 month-old cat in April. He had been an entire tom all this time and had been neutered only weeks before I got him.

He was still brimming with testosterone, dominant, forceful, intimidating my other cats and fighting. But gradually, as his testosterone levels dropped, he turned into the friendliest, most loving cat you can imagine.

He sleeps on my bed, purring so loud it will sometimes wake you, and he is a much happier, friendlier cat than when I first met him.

An entire tom isn't happy. He might be in a natural setting with countless unspayed queens all around, but even then, a great part of his life would consist of fighting the other toms over these queens.

As it is, they will roam for miles to find fertile queens, and they will fight amongst each other, but they will also fight with neutered house cats, spreading sexually transmitted diseases amongst them.

I don't want to be rude, but I really feel very strongly about the irresponsible behaviour of cat owners who let their unneutered toms roam. Not only do they wreck my house by spraying and getting into fights with my cats INSIDE my house (even though I have a microchip-operated catflap, they can come in if they follow one of mine closely enough), but they also injure my cats, and possibly infect them with feline AIDS and feline leukemia.

And I don't even have young, unspayed queens. If one of these toms were to gain access to a house with a female kitten, that has not yeat been neutered, he might get her pregnant, which is a potentially dangerous situation, as kittens that are too young to be spayed are most definitely too young to have a healthy litter and remain healthy, themselves. It is like an 8 to 10-year old girl getting pregnant.

The fact that your cat is so wild is in great part due to his not being neutered. You will find him much more sociable, both towards himself once he has been neutered.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey guys,

I think I am approaching you with some good news that you would want to hear at last.

I am going to get my black cat neutered ASAP. I've joined your camp in his case because his attitude is simply unbearable. He has been hissing, swiping and growling at me and his brother. He also savaged my arm when I picked him up during a Skype conference to his previous owner to show that the prodigal son had returned!

Tbh, he behaved like this before he absconded (at 6 months old) so I don't believe that this is an 'unneutered cat' trait. It was also kind of why I wasn't losing sleep that he was gone if I am entirely honest with you.

I don't know if I mentioned this before but a real reservation I had had against neutering is that I personally know people who neutered their cats because it was the 'done' thing.

These particular people had not had problems such as spraying, fighting etc. but they were just following conventional wisdom. One friend had the cat run away soon after. She is confident that it was because he had got angry with what had been done to him.

My Russian friend said that when he did it to his cat, he just became a lazy, fat vegetable.

My grey cat spends his day sniffing plants, brushing past the legs of people passing by, sleeping on the sofa and eating his dinner. I have not had a day where he hasn't returned every couple hours therefore I am doubtful of this idea he is roaming the city looking for eligible ladies. 

I don't know if you got the chance to read my post from 2 days ago but he brought home someone's cat as a new housemate last week. It was a boy cat and they would just chill together. I have also had 3 neighbours from the surrounding roads tell me he is going into their houses from time to time but they just find him nosey rather than anything negative. As it happens, one neighbour told me it has got him attacked by their girl cat for intruding in her space (she is neutered btw).

As for the new addition I got yesterday he has been much more diplomatic than one could have hoped for. He is growling and uneasy but has been sniffing the new cat rather than attacking him. Today I put their dinner bowls side by side and supervised the meal. He happily shared the space and then went back out the window on his sightseeing. Sometimes we go for walks together. I think with me there he is confident to explore more than a street away.

In the morning, i am just going to pose my black cat's situation at the vet as an emergency because he is really messing up the vibe in the house and given they are 3, it's not so easy to isolate him!


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2012)

Ron, you do need to get the cat neutered. A lot of what you say is anthropomorphic. Your black cat would have been much happier if he'd been done earlier. The reason your friends desexed earlier, without first having problems, IS WHY PEOPLE DESEX EARLIER. They never had the problems BECAUSE they desexed earlier. Would you want your cat to get feline AIDS and THEN pay for the vaccination? That is your logic. The reason desexing is accepted and automatic to most cat lovers, is because it is one of the kindest, most protective things you can do, if you love your cat. Would you challenge people who say don't let children live on lollies? It is conventional wisdom because it is more than proven, and wisdom. I think you are imagining how you would feel, which is silly. I hope this time, you do actually desex.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

They really need to all be neutered. I find that men often feel that neutering is "wrong". Please bear in mind, these are cats, not humans. They really do not miss their gonads. Unneutered tomcats are the bane of many neighbourhoods. They spray, wander, fight with other cats, mess in other people's gardens, spread diseases, etc etc. You seem like a very sensible person. I am sure you don't want your cats to be considered "pests". Neutering is certainly the right way to go. I would never keep an unneutered tom or unspayed cat in my home. They are happier and healthier and definitely more loving. The sooner you get all of them done, the better off they *all *will be : I guarantee it.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Very pleased to hear the good news Ron! I am sure the vet will approve of the plan as well, as it is in the best interests of the cat. 

I think you will find once the cat has been neutered and his testosterone levels have fallen (may take several months for this to take full effect) he will be a calmer more friendly cat. 

If his behaviour was the same as it is now when he was 6 mths old that still could have been due to his testosterone levels -- kittens often reach sexual maturity from about 5 months onwards. 

There is absolutely no reason at all for a cat to become a fat, lazy couch potato once they are neutered!! All my male cats have been neutered and not one has ever been overweight. They have all been active, lively, adventurous and playful right into old age. It is a question of the right diet, and plenty of opportunities for exercise - just the same as with human beings!!


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

It's crazy how pleasant he was as I got him into the cat carrier early this afternoon in order to take him to the vet. You'll be glad to know his last minute attempt at being nice didn't sway me to abort the visit.

I just got a phone call from the vet to say that he has been done and will stay in overnight for observation. Hmm, I don't mind if he doesn't become all cuddly, I'm just happy if he can now be in the room without glaring at everyone!


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

I am back but this time with a philosophical question.

First I'll quickly update you with things. I was on my way back from the vet last week with my neutered cat. I don't know how he did it but as I was opening the front door He headbutted and opened his cat carrier.

He was off and there was no catching him. Thus I have decided to leave it at that now. I think he'll see the rest of his days off as an outdoorsy cat and now he is neutered hopefully I am in your good books with respect to him.

For the forseeable future I won't be neutering my grey cat. I have bad news in relation to the new cat I picked up. He has gone outdoors and has not been back since.

In case I hadn't said before that cat was one a lady wanted taken in because she realised the neighbours had abandoned him. She left food for him by her door but due to her daughter's allergies could not have him in the house.

She advised that I leave out food for him but let him be an outdoor cat as this is all he knows now. So yeah he's not been back since I let him out.

I'm putting up some lost posters today as some people say they saw a cat fitting his description eating out of bins along the row of restaurants.

Now to my question. I have been having a cat coming through my window of recent to hang out with my cat. He never really left after his arrivals and his owner consequently put up posters to say she had lost a cat and that the children miss him.

I felt bad thus called her and told her that he comes round. Thus now since he has started coming around again she knows where I live thus today she knocked at the door asking for him.

I explained to her that he comes in on his own free will. Personally I am inclined to think she is being selfish in not letting him live here if he wants to. I let her in but when he saw her he ran away across the house to stop her picking him up.

I don't know how your experiences have been with kids and pets but from my recent memory I get very annoyed when my cousin brings her son round. He pulls my cats tail and pokes him. She then threatens me that she'll beat up my cat because sometimes he bites him to get him to stop.

So in conclusion am I being unreasonable in thinking she should just let the cat live here. My cat cried for a bit when Charlie left and I as a thoughtful owner have come to terms with my black cat will never be happy as a house cat.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks for the update, if you don't mind I'd like to break down what you've said and give you my view on it.



theronstar said:


> First I'll quickly update you with things. I was on my way back from the vet last week with my neutered cat. I don't know how he did it but as I was opening the front door He headbutted and opened his cat carrier.
> 
> He was off and there was no catching him. Thus I have decided to leave it at that now. I think he'll see the rest of his days off as an outdoorsy cat and now he is neutered hopefully I am in your good books with respect to him.


Have you not tried to get him back? I'm hazarding an educated guess that the reason he bolted was because he was scared of the carrier as most cats are. I feel you've been very careless not ensuring that the carrier was securely closed.



theronstar said:


> For the forseeable future I won't be neutering my grey cat. I have bad news in relation to the new cat I picked up. He has gone outdoors and has not been back since.
> 
> In case I hadn't said before that cat was one a lady wanted taken in because she realised the neighbours had abandoned him. She left food for him by her door but due to her daughter's allergies could not have him in the house.
> 
> ...


I think this was incredibly irresponsible of you. Cats can and do adapt to being indoors and are very happy with it. Since he went out, have you been to look for him at all? As regards your other cat, why in heaven's name are you not getting him neutered?! He will spray all over your house, he will bolt out the house when he detects a girl in heat and he will not come back. You'll also have problems if you get other cats because he will be territorial, so introductions will not go well!



theronstar said:


> Now to my question. I have been having a cat coming through my window of recent to hang out with my cat. He never really left after his arrivals and his owner consequently put up posters to say she had lost a cat and that the children miss him.
> 
> I felt bad thus called her and told her that he comes round. Thus now since he has started coming around again she knows where I live thus today she knocked at the door asking for him.
> 
> ...


If your cousin and her son act like that around the cat, I suggest you tell them to stop coming round. Clearly they don't know how to act around cats, and if you have told them how to behave and they're not following this, it's unfair on the cat to let them continue to invade his home with rough behaviour.

Not all children are like this however, and this lady's children may or may not be like your cousin's child. Until you have absolute proof that these children are being rough with the cat, it is not your responsibility to take the cat on.



theronstar said:


> So in conclusion am I being unreasonable in thinking she should just let the cat live here. My cat cried for a bit when Charlie left and I as a thoughtful owner have come to terms with my black cat will never be happy as a house cat.


I don't think you're a thoughtful owner by any stretch of imagination. I'm sorry if I come across as rude and blunt but I think you're incredibly irresponsible. Your post has come across with a shocking don't care attitude as regards to where your animals are. The fact that you won't neuter your remaining cat is ridiculous, what valid reason do you have? You cannot use your other cat's escape attempt as a valid reason, that was your fault in the first place as you didn't ensure the carrier was properly secure.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

[QUOTE ]Thanks for the update, if you don't mind I'd like to break down what you've said and give you my view on it. [/QUOTE]

Thanks



> Have you not tried to get him back? I'm hazarding an educated guess that the reason he bolted was because he was scared of the carrier as most cats are. I feel you've been very careless not ensuring that the carrier was securely closed.


I have tried to get him back countless times. I got these brothers in December 2011. Since I introduced them to the great outdoors he just came back less and less up until the point he doesn't come indoors anymore. If he does it will be to get a quick bite to eat and then off he goes again. When he has come in and I locked the doors/windows he is perpetually miserable. By this I mean he just sulks behind the sofa. When he bolts for the door when I open it (forgetting he is home) I don't even try to stop him because he is not even good company anyway. He is neutered now so I was not expecting that you would still find things to criticise me about, with respect to him. Hmm, I received him from the vet already in his carrier so I guess it was my fault in that I did not double check they had secured it properly when I left the practice.



> I think this was incredibly irresponsible of you. Cats can and do adapt to being indoors and are very happy with it. Since he went out, have you been to look for him at all? As regards your other cat, why in heaven's name are you not getting him neutered?! He will spray all over your house, he will bolt out the house when he detects a girl in heat and he will not come back. You'll also have problems if you get other cats because he will be territorial, so introductions will not go well!


I saw him the other day actually, he was walking along our road. Seemed fine to me, so thought no more of the situation. I am not getting my grey cat neutered unless he gives me reason to. He is curled up on my lap asleep at the moment. Right now, he is so territorial that he brought back the ginger and white cat from round the corner to live with us.



> If your cousin and her son act like that around the cat, I suggest you tell them to stop coming round. Clearly they don't know how to act around cats, and if you have told them how to behave and they're not following this, it's unfair on the cat to let them continue to invade his home with rough behaviour.


Yep, I'll not be letting my cousin and her son near unless they sort it out. In some ways I find my cat more civilised than them but then that is another conversation!



> Not all children are like this however, and this lady's children may or may not be like your cousin's child. Until you have absolute proof that these children are being rough with the cat, it is not your responsibility to take the cat on.


I am not certain that the kids are good or bad with the cat. What I am certain about is that if he felt comfortable to go home with the lady he would not have ran away every time she tried to pick him up?



> I don't think you're a thoughtful owner by any stretch of imagination. I'm sorry if I come across as rude and blunt but I think you're incredibly irresponsible. Your post has come across with a shocking don't care attitude as regards to where your animals are. The fact that you won't neuter your remaining cat is ridiculous, what valid reason do you have? You cannot use your other cat's escape attempt as a valid reason, that was your fault in the first place as you didn't ensure the carrier was properly secure.


I am sorry that you think I am unthoughtful but given I know my cats don't agree with you this does not matter to me. In my mind a stereotype of you is forming. I am seeing you as an ultra feminist, knitting by the fireside with your elderly cat sleeping on the rug next to you. Let me break things down for you. Historically our cats would roam the wild and hunt for food and deal with a 1000 times more hassle than you believe they can deal with. I will not coop up my cats in the house just out of an irrational fear things can go wrong if I let them out. Maybe we should stay indoors too, I mean you never know we could get knocked over crossing the road.

Cooping them up would be me being an unthoughtful owner. In the kitchen are their food, water and milk bowls. Additionally they have my sofas, bed or floor space to sleep on, balls, warmth from the cold/rain and my company.

My black cat chooses not to take these amenities from me thus that is his prerogative. When he gets stressed out of hunting or the person who feeds him stops then maybe he'll be back. He knows full well where he lives. I'm prepared to wait until then because then at least in those circumstances he will be inclined to be a darned bit more sociable.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

theronstar said:


> I have tried to get him back countless times. I got these brothers in December 2011. Since I introduced them to the great outdoors he just came back less and less up until the point he doesn't come indoors anymore. If he does it will be to get a quick bite to eat and then off he goes again. When he has come in and I locked the doors/windows he is perpetually miserable. By this I mean he just sulks behind the sofa. When he bolts for the door when I open it (forgetting he is home) I don't even try to stop him because he is not even good company anyway. He is neutered now so I was not expecting that you would still find things to criticise me about, with respect to him. Hmm, I received him from the vet already in his carrier so I guess it was my fault in that I did not double check they had secured it properly when I left the practice.


So you have had them less than 12 months. How old were they when you got them?
Personally, I wouldnt let a cat less than 12 months old out to free roam wherever it wanted to go.

And yes, you should have double checked his carrier.



> I saw him the other day actually, he was walking along our road. Seemed fine to me, so thought no more of the situation. I am not getting my grey cat neutered unless he gives me reason to. He is curled up on my lap asleep at the moment. Right now, he is so territorial that he brought back the ginger and white cat from round the corner to live with us.


So it doesnt matter to you if you cat gets another cat pregant? Just because _yours_ isnt the one pregnant you dont think you are contributing to all the unwanted kittens in the world?
I wonder how you would feel if all the litters your cat produces were dropped on your doorstep, and you had to cope with raising them, feeding them, vaccinating them, and finding them good resposible owners. How would you cope if the mother rejected them, and you were the one bottle feeding them every two hours to keep them alive, then stimulating their bladders and bowels, just to give them a chance to live? Or does that not apply if you are male?



> Yep, I'll not be letting my cousin and her son near unless they sort it out. In some ways I find my cat more civilised than them but then that is another conversation!


It is indeed - I wonder how your cousin thinks its acceptable to let her son behave as he does, and to make those comments to you, in your own home.
I am certain _no-one_ would be under any illusion that those comments would be acceptable in my home.



> I am not certain that the kids are good or bad with the cat. What I am certain about is that if he felt comfortable to go home with the lady he would not have ran away every time she tried to pick him up?


Some cats are nervous and just dont like being picked up. Its nothing to do with how they feel about their owner.



> I am sorry that you think I am unthoughtful but given I know my cats don't agree with you this does not matter to me. In my mind a stereotype of you is forming. I am seeing you as an ultra feminist, knitting by the fireside with your elderly cat sleeping on the rug next to you. Let me break things down for you. Historically our cats would roam the wild and hunt for food and deal with a 1000 times more hassle than you believe they can deal with. I will not coop up my cats in the house just out of an irrational fear things can go wrong if I let them out. Maybe we should stay indoors too, I mean you never know we could get knocked over crossing the road.


Well your image in your mind is 100% wrong (about RM anyway). Historically dogs roamed free too, but you dont find a _responsible_ dog owner these days letting their dogs roam free.



> Cooping them up would be me being an unthoughtful owner. In the kitchen are their food, water and milk bowls. Additionally they have my sofas, bed or floor space to sleep on, balls, warmth from the cold/rain and my company.


A bit like letting an un-neutered cat roam free would be the actions of an unthoughtful owner? Or does that only apply to owners of female cats that bear the brunt of owners letting their un-neutered males roam free?



> My black cat chooses not to take these amenities from me thus that is his prerogative. When he gets stressed out of hunting or the person who feeds him stops then maybe he'll be back. He knows full well where he lives. I'm prepared to wait until then because then at least in those circumstances he will be inclined to be a darned bit more sociable.


A lot of _people_ know full well where they live too. They know the amenities that wait them. Quite a few of them decide to vanish without trace, _because _of what they know....

You actually give no idication that you care about your cats welfare at all. In fact you seem to think its fine for you to steal someone elses cat just because they come in through your catflap.

Your own cat has vanished, oh well, another cat has appeared so I will just keep that one, if that one vanishes, well never mind, its the kindest thing, if someone elses cat comes along i will keep that one instead, even though I dont really care its it vanishes - they are like buses, another one will be along at some point.......

If you decide to keep pets you are responsible for them - so be responsible for the ones you took on, before deciding to keep hold of a pet that belongs to someone else


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2012)

Thank you for the HUGE laugh. Ultra feminists KNITTING!!!! Probably 5%/10% of women knit, these days, feminist or not. To picture radical feminists knitting bitterly and angrily, plotting to get you to take your cats testicles off! BIG laugh!!

In many ways, you are very anthropomorphic. You don't think like cats, and never will, and you have allowed your personal identification with your cats testes, to over rule what is the responsible and kind thing to do for your cats. You say your friends desexed, without and BEFORE any of the problems you and your other friends have had, and say that is because they went wth fashion and without thought. Fact is, they PREVENTED the problems from starting, and are responsible and loving owners. You are clearly kindly, but have a closed mind to taking advice from experienced people, BECAUSE you are identifying with your cats body as your own, and now you say you imagine your advisors to be bitter, KNITTING feminists, all plotting to remove testicles, from any male, whatever the species.

It is very frustrating, because even when you acknowledge something, you then come back and say, but I didn't do it, and your reason is you are thinking how it would effect you, if it was your body. Cats don't feel incomplete with no testicles. They don't notice. They just feel less testosterone driven. Instead of fighting, they back down. They aren't attacked as a rival, as they have no interest in fighting for access to a female. However, the longer they do run wild with testicles, the more at ease with that lifestyle, they are, and less likely to change behaviour. 

Just remember, your undesexed animals are responsible for feral kittens being born, too many to be homed. Those kittens and adult cats trapped, are put down - killed -when they should never have been born, to struggle and go hungry, but for people with your attitude and worse. I don't consider you a good home. You are irresponsible, kindly but ignorant, and really oddly obsessed with your cat having testicles, which does seem to be common in men who don't have a good biological sciences education or had a very strong religious education. You also appear to have a discomforting uncaring attitude to your cat that is not demonstrably affectionate, and has basically voted with it's feet. Thankfully, due to your inability to bond with it, you were prepared to desex it, which does point to you seeing it as a punishment, or you would have desexed the cat you say you are fond of, and who has stayed with you.

As to the lesson on cats in the wild... For thousands of years, HUMANS have taken wild cats and interfered with their natural breeding. Those wild cats you identified, did not evolve to understand car dangers, live in cities, with nutters who poison or catch and torture. They live miserable lives, as ferals. Always hungry, scared, aggressive due to fear, often carrying injuries and worms, lice, fleas... Killing wildlife already under great stress... if you had had advice from experienced cat lovers, from the start, AND FOLLOWED IT, instead of faffing about with personal theories that are based on a fantasy or how you would feel if a cat, you would have had 2 settled , established, safe and content INDOOR cats.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey guys, a quick clarification here because there is some confusion.

I got both of the cats December 2011 - they were about 10 months old. A black cat and a grey cat. Both were house bound for at least a month.

My black cat has been neutered by the vet. This was two or so weeks ago. He was displaying tendencies of the 'tom' cat you talk about but because he was so fast I could never catch him.

Even though he is neutered he still prefers to live outdoors. What's your moral problem with respect to that?

My grey cat has never displayed any bad behaviour thus this is why I will not neuter him. He only ventures within these streets as I can find him within a minute if I want to when I go outside. The neighbours know him for being curious and merely wondering through their houses. He brought back someone else' cat as a companion. He is home every night &#8594; no neutering

I know there are many cats in homes due to lack of owners of them so YES, not neutering my black cat would have been an irresponsible thing to do.

From what you are saying, it's akin to stealing the white and ginger cat from his owners if I make him feel welcome here, so if he comes by I will text the owners to say he is here. Why this frustrates me is that I don't lock in my black cat merely because I like to have my cats around me. If any of them get attached to my neighbours or living outdoors, then so be it.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Oh my goodness...



theronstar said:


> Hey guys, a quick clarification here because there is some confusion.
> 
> I got both of the cats December 2011 - they were about 10 months old. A black cat and a grey cat. Both were house bound for at least a month.
> 
> My black cat has been neutered by the vet. This was two or so weeks ago. He was displaying tendencies of the 'tom' cat you talk about but because he was so fast I could never catch him.


You should've had him neutered when you go him, not 8 months down the line.



theronstar said:


> Even though he is neutered he still prefers to live outdoors. What's your moral problem with respect to that?


The issue isn't with _him_, the issue is with _you_, you don't seem give a rat's bottom about where he is or how to get him back. As he's happy outdoors, did you not think to cat-proof your garden so he's safe from the dangers of poison, being run over, getting into fights, etc.? They're not 'irrational fears', they are *fact.*



theronstar said:


> My grey cat has never displayed any bad behaviour thus this is why I will not neuter him. He only ventures within these streets as I can find him within a minute if I want to when I go outside. The neighbours know him for being curious and merely wondering through their houses. He brought back someone else' cat as a companion. He is home every night → no neutering


I know there are many cats in homes due to lack of owners of them so YES, not neutering my black cat would have been an irresponsible thing to do.

Not neutering your grey cat is just as irresponsible. The fact that you're letting him out when he's not neutered means you have no idea if he's impregnating entire female strays. Your significantly increasing his risk of contracting STDs by not neutering him, him being indoors at night makes absolutely no difference to this.



theronstar said:


> From what you are saying, it's akin to stealing the white and ginger cat from his owners if I make him feel welcome here, so if he comes by I will text the owners to say he is here. Why this frustrates me is that I don't lock in my black cat merely because I like to have my cats around me. If any of them get attached to my neighbours or living outdoors, then so be it.


If you take the cat in when the owners still want you, they can do you for stealing as a cat is classed as property. Not only that, how do you know that cat isn't on a special diet? It's clear you don't understand cats at all, they are opportunists. If they can get more food without the effort of hunting, they'll do it. That doesn't mean they want to live with you or are unhappy at home, they just want food. As for the cat running away in your previous post, Molly runs away from me when I pick her up and then she's back 5 seconds later demanding for a cuddle. Some cats just don't like being picked up, that doesn't mean they don't like their owner.

You can stereotype me however much you like, I really don't care. My cat is not elderly nor do I knit. I am not the sort of feminist that always wants to bust a man's balls to get my kicks, and even if I did, frankly some stranger on the internet really wouldn't be a first port of call, so please don't flatter yourself.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

theronstar said:


> [QUOTE ] In my mind a stereotype of you is forming. I am seeing you as an ultra feminist, knitting by the fireside with your elderly cat sleeping on the rug next to you. .


Lol! Rabbitmonkee?! I didn't know ultrafeminists knitted at the fireside? Lol, OP, you couldn't be more wrong... you know what they say about stereotypes..... I must say, I am also not an ultrafemninists and I don't know how to knit, but to me you also seem to be very ignorant about cats and what they need. In fact, your attitude towards the wellbeing of your cat seems to be careless at best.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> Lol! Rabbitmonkee?! I didn't know ultrafeminists knitted at the fireside? Lol, OP, you couldn't be more wrong... you know what they say about stereotypes..... I must say, I am also not an ultrafemninists and I don't know how to knit, but to me you also seem to be very ignorant about cats and what they need. In fact, your attitude towards the wellbeing of your cat seems to be careless at best.


Clearly you haven't seen what I can do with baby booties!  :001_tongue:


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## WriterC (Jul 27, 2012)

Ronald, may I make a suggestion - if you're planning to be so rude to people and so publicly irresponsible in regards to pet ownership, it might be an idea to not do so with an account that is easily linked to your professional life. I can't imagine many people would employ you in your job after reading your posts here.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

RM's gonna bust your b*lls......


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## egyptianreggae (May 26, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> RM's gonna bust your b*lls......


Hahahahahaha oh dear, I'm going to have to finally figure out how to give good rep as you really deserve it for that post!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

egyptianreggae said:


> Hahahahahaha oh dear, I'm going to have to finally figure out how to give good rep as you really deserve it for that post!


click on the scales above the post you like!


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> RM's gonna bust your b*lls......


How did you know that's what I look like?! :scared: :scared:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Can I just add a few pointers to you Ron  and I am in no way critisising merely trying to help you  

Just because your grey cat is not wandering "FAR" does not mean he is not getting into trouble or fights with other cats in the area - you cannot monitor him when he is out to know exactly what he is doing or where he is going - the fact he has not roamed so far is just LUCK pure and simple , and the older he gets and more confident he becomes I can assure you he WILL venture further

My cat has been nuetuered since six months of age and STILL came back from being outside with injuries - one bite became so infected (cat saliva is full of bacteria) that it turned into a very nasty abcess - very common in cats - and he had to be put under and have it drained etc, antibiotics and lots of rest - all very costly not to mention traumatic and painful for my cat but something I COULD have avoided by being more responsible as an owner - I do understand why you want to let him out - but you MUST minimise the risk whereever possible if you are going to allow them outside, my cat is an outdoor cat but he is also MY PET and therefore I have to make sure I look after him - going outside does not = wild - if you are NOT going to neuture your grey cat (which I think you should) then at least have some curfew rules in place - I do - my cat is not allowed out over night - as this is when most other cats are out and about and they can get into more fights etc - make a rule that he is in at say 7pm and then you can let him out again in the morning after breakfast?? of course this does not eliminate the road risks etc so really a responsible owner would "evaluate" the area they live in before deciding on wether a cat is an outdoor or indoor.

As for the other cats you want to adopt because they come to you for food etc - why do you want them if all you are going to do is let them back out and not know if they will return ?? that just does not make sense to me ?? you had a cat you neutered but then lost - surely your priority should be finding the cat you already own?? instead of trying to take others in?? 

I really do think you need to concentrate on the cat/s you have now ie the gray and the black one - what are their names?? you need to provide them with a loving home and then they WILL come home to you


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

theronstar said:


> Historically our cats would roam the wild and hunt for food and deal with a 1000 times more hassle than you believe they can deal with. I will not coop up my cats in the house just out of an irrational fear things can go wrong if I let them out. Maybe we should stay indoors too, I mean you never know we could get knocked over crossing the road.


Historically, there weren't any cars, drivers on cell phones, drivers stuffing their faces and distracted by children, and just plain nasty people with access to tasty deadly chemicals like antifreeze. The most a cat used to have to deal with was some wild predators, parasites, weather and starvation. Now, there's a lot more and to compare a cat dealing with traffic to a grown person is just silly. A stronger comparison would be a cat to a 5 year old.

The fear is not at all irrational. At the end of the day you must do what you think is best, as the cat is "yours" (I don't know that cats ever consider themselves owned and even less if they only come in for food). But don't try to use the argument of history to prove why this is a good thing. The world has changed a lot--it has changed rapidly in the last 5 years alone.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

As for the not neutering, think of it this way: If you keep your unneutered male in, he's going to constantly crave the very thing he cannot have. It will make him angry and neurotic. If you let him out to roam, he's still craving, but he can have it now. Problem is, all the other unneutered males are his competition. So he's rather like an aggressive guy at the pub, always on that cusp of having had a little too much to drink (as a cat naturally has no inhibitions and is led by his id, if you will). He picks up random women every night, sometimes more than one. He smacks anyone who gets in his way. He has all kinds of unprotected sex, producing countless babies that he has absolutely no knowledge or any sense of responsibility toward. Sure, he's having a good time, but is this a good life for anyone involved?

Maybe that bit of anthropomorphizing will help.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ron, I really do thank you for brightening up my day by giving me a good chuckle at your image of Rabbitmonkee sitting by the fire knitting, with an elderly cat on the rug beside her!:laugh::laugh::laugh: If only you knew the truth I think you would laugh too! 

To me, for a youngish man (I'm assuming you are *youngish*, bearing in mind your profession) you have a rather old fashioned attitude to your cats. It reminds me of the attitude held by quite a number of cat owners when I was growing up in the 1950's. 

In those days cats were regarded much more as free spirits, and rather a laissez-faire attitude was adopted towards them in terms of when they came and went, and even if they disappeared for days or weeks at a time, people shrugged and said "so be it, perhaps they'll come home, perhaps they won't". (Not everyone was so off-hand, in fact my family was not). 

Back then, cats were rarely neutered or spayed, and as a result litter after litter of unwanted kittens were regularly produced, only to be drowned at birth by the cats owner. This was seen as par for the course, nothing to worry about Even as a young child I found this attitude shocking

But times have changed. Society is more enlightened about responsible pet ownership. Veterinary medicine has become more skilled and sophisticated. Cats are valued more as members of the family, and therefore deserving of better health care, including preventative health care. 

Roads are busier with traffic, human populations are more densely packed in towns and cities, and there are now greater expectations these days for cat owners to do all they can to keep their cats safe from harm. 

It is just not possible to keep 2 entire tom cats in the same house without there being huge territorial issues between them. By the sounds of it your grey cat is "top cat" in your house, and it was your black cat who was constantly challenging the grey cat's supremacy, hence his aggressive anti-social behaviour. 

Now you say the black cat, having been neutered, has broken out of his carrier and run away This was no doubt a reaction to his scary experience at the vets, and perhaps it resulted in him losing his trust in you. But he could get over that, with love and care, and I think you should be doing all you can to coax him back home. 

If he does not want to live with you any longer, probably because he does not get along with Top Cat (your grey cat), then it is your moral duty to find black cat a new home, not just leave him to wander the streets living rough, trying to grab or steal food wherever he can, and with no-one to care for his health. If you adopted him from a proper Rescue Shelter they would be shocked to hear you have just left him to wander off and become a stray. 

I expect they would also be very annoyed to hear you have failed to get both your adopted cats neutered by now. Most Shelters require adoptive owners to give a signed undertaking they will have the cats neutered or spayed at 6 mths, and they often check up with the vets to see this has been done.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Just to add, the issue of contagious diseases is a real one. I am a feral and rescue volunteer and over the past few years, I have noted a marked increase in kittens and cats testing poisitive for FIV/FELV (in adult cats, the frequency is definitely higher in male unneutered cats). I thought I was imagining things until one of the vets that help us confirmed that there has been a definite increase in incidences of FIV/FELV in cats of all ages over the past few years: *in fact an increase of 25% year on year*! If that doesn't frighten you, nothing else would. Neutering and spaying of any cat will greatly reduce the risk of fighting (and of course, having sex) with infected cats. Believe me, your cats do not only associate with the "healthy well-fed" cats next door, they will also associate with feral and stray cats. This I have seen with my own eyes at the feral colonies I feed: ordinary house and fireside cats joining the feral groups for play, fighting, sex and food.:nonod:

PS your cat doesn't even have to go "far" to meet ferals. I have four ferals living at the office block next door (I have had them sterilised though)


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

WriterC said:


> Ronald, may I make a suggestion - if you're planning to be so rude to people and so publicly irresponsible in regards to pet ownership, it might be an idea to not do so with an account that is easily linked to your professional life. I can't imagine many people would employ you in your job after reading your posts here.


Lol at your dramatics.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Can I just add a few pointers to you Ron  and I am in no way critisising merely trying to help you
> 
> Just because your grey cat is not wandering "FAR" does not mean he is not getting into trouble or fights with other cats in the area - you cannot monitor him when he is out to know exactly what he is doing or where he is going - the fact he has not roamed so far is just LUCK pure and simple , and the older he gets and more confident he becomes I can assure you he WILL venture further
> 
> ...


Hey, by no means am I out for arguments with folk. It just seems that some are really set in their ways. I just had a (male) friend who owns a cat too leave after staying here a few days. He said he is totally fine with how I am with the cats. I definitely think this is a gender divide.

I really don't know what neighbourhoods you all live in because it really sounds like the wild west what your cats have to put up with. I've seen them both with a bite but this is literally once in a whole year!

I'd feel or see it because I comb through their coats when they give me the chance - they don't sit still. Naturally if my cats were appearing constantly in scuffs I would not be so laissez faire to allowing them outdoors. I know all 8 cats from my surrounding rounds and have comfortably seen a number of them sitting together on the fence.

I guess I could keep my grey cat indoors more but I know he likes his freedom. He is an Egyptian Mau and I've read their good with cars.

Hmm, as for the cats that come through the window for food I don't want to obligate them to stay, they are welcome to if they want.

I'll say it again for the umpdeenth time, for me, my black cat is not 'lost'. He just likes to wander the great outdoors and come back on his own terms. He doesn't like being indoors. Or if he is indoors I am guessing it is with one of my neighbours. My grey cat is Dude and my black cat is Guy

Thanks for writing to me.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> Historically, there weren't any cars, drivers on cell phones, drivers stuffing their faces and distracted by children, and just plain nasty people with access to tasty deadly chemicals like antifreeze. The most a cat used to have to deal with was some wild predators, parasites, weather and starvation. Now, there's a lot more and to compare a cat dealing with traffic to a grown person is just silly. A stronger comparison would be a cat to a 5 year old.
> 
> The fear is not at all irrational. At the end of the day you must do what you think is best, as the cat is "yours" (I don't know that cats ever consider themselves owned and even less if they only come in for food). But don't try to use the argument of history to prove why this is a good thing. The world has changed a lot--it has changed rapidly in the last 5 years alone.


You raise a good point about the concrete jungle. I never thought of that. I've observed both my cats on my road with respect to vehicles. They stay well clear of moving cars. At first I would worry when I was on the other side and they saw me. Though I know they won't cross unless its safe. Thanks


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> As for the not neutering, think of it this way: If you keep your unneutered male in, he's going to constantly crave the very thing he cannot have. It will make him angry and neurotic. If you let him out to roam, he's still craving, but he can have it now. Problem is, all the other unneutered males are his competition. So he's rather like an aggressive guy at the pub, always on that cusp of having had a little too much to drink (as a cat naturally has no inhibitions and is led by his id, if you will). He picks up random women every night, sometimes more than one. He smacks anyone who gets in his way. He has all kinds of unprotected sex, producing countless babies that he has absolutely no knowledge or any sense of responsibility toward. Sure, he's having a good time, but is this a good life for anyone involved?
> 
> Maybe that bit of anthropomorphizing will help.


That did explain my black cat. He is now neutered.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Ron, I really do thank you for brightening up my day by giving me a good chuckle at your image of Rabbitmonkee sitting by the fire knitting, with an elderly cat on the rug beside her!:laugh::laugh::laugh: If only you knew the truth I think you would laugh too!
> 
> To me, for a youngish man (I'm assuming you are *youngish*, bearing in mind your profession) you have a rather old fashioned attitude to your cats. It reminds me of the attitude held by quite a number of cat owners when I was growing up in the 1950's.
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm 23 so I guess I am youngish. I think I just have a manly attitude towards cats. The guy I took my cats from (a man) and a male cat owner who left my house today after a few days visit were on my side. The owner said definitely neuter my black cat to stop him getting into a fight and contracting something. Though my grey cat is fine as he is

Wow, that atttitude of drowning cats is sickening. If my grey cat knocks anyone up I'll definitely take in his offspring then let them die.

Hmm, I think my black cat was the dominant one. He was never playful like my grey cat and would growl and hiss at the both of us when he lived at home. Hence when he started not coming home I did not miss him due to the bad vibes he had.

He came home again though I believe because he saw the white and ginger cat playing here with the grey cat. I think he was trying to assert this is my place. That gave me the golden opportunity to take him to the vet and get him neutered.

I took both my cats off the last owner together in order that they'd have each other to help dealing with a new house. I truly think my black cat never got over having to move house hence why I am happier to just let him do his thing outdoors.

I don't know if any of you have a magic wand but maybe you could spend some time with my black cat and see that's how he is. For instance, I remember when I was younger and I had a foster carer who had cats. I had to call Cats protection because she NEVER allowed them to live in the house because she said houses are for humans only. They'd thus live in the windy garage and eat the offings and bones from the dinner table or stuff that went bad in the fridge. That lady believed the cats liked the food she gave them over actual cat food.

Anyway, my point, cats protection took them and I asked the lady who I liaised with, what kind of family they would live with. Her exact words were that with some cats e.g. these, are now basically feral and the best life for them would be to live in a Celia Hammond sanctuary where they would see the rest of their days.

Granted, I could maybe arrange my black cat get sent to one of those places but if he has improvised his own rat run here then another needing cat can just have that one. So after sharing this with the others that they'd stop assuming I don't care about my black cat.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> Just to add, the issue of contagious diseases is a real one. I am a feral and rescue volunteer and over the past few years, I have noted a marked increase in kittens and cats testing poisitive for FIV/FELV (in adult cats, the frequency is definitely higher in male unneutered cats). I thought I was imagining things until one of the vets that help us confirmed that there has been a definite increase in incidences of FIV/FELV in cats of all ages over the past few years: *in fact an increase of 25% year on year*! If that doesn't frighten you, nothing else would. Neutering and spaying of any cat will greatly reduce the risk of fighting (and of course, having sex) with infected cats. Believe me, your cats do not only associate with the "healthy well-fed" cats next door, they will also associate with feral and stray cats. This I have seen with my own eyes at the feral colonies I feed: ordinary house and fireside cats joining the feral groups for play, fighting, sex and food.:nonod:
> 
> PS your cat doesn't even have to go "far" to meet ferals. I have four ferals living at the office block next door (I have had them sterilised though)


Hmm, thanks for sharing this info with me. Those stats do sound worrying. It's a shame we can't communicate this to my black cat to get him to come home and spend some time here. He is neutered so I guess maybe this will help him less likely get into such a fight to cause this transmission.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

I give up in the face of this arrogant stupidity...


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## rizz (Apr 11, 2012)

EDIT - ignore me didnt read whole thread to start off with lol


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

theronstar said:


> Hey, by no means am I out for arguments with folk. It just seems that some are really set in their ways. I just had a (male) friend who owns a cat too leave after staying here a few days. He said he is totally fine with how I am with the cats. I definitely think this is a gender divide.
> 
> I really don't know what neighbourhoods you all live in because it really sounds like the wild west what your cats have to put up with. I've seen them both with a bite but this is literally once in a whole year!
> 
> ...


Hey there  - I think people are just trying to educate you - not argue with you - people here are extremely passionate about animal welfare.

I know many males who have cats and take neutering and health care just as seriously as women - IMO the love of animals has nothing to do with gender - either you do or you dont - so really what sex you are is of no matter

I dont live in the wild west lol but cats can travel long distances esp if they are entire to mate and gain terroitory - so you dont know IF your cat when out is actually staying in your area or not.

When a cat is ill you cannot always tell - and you certainly cannot always "feel where bites are" only a vet can do that.

A cat bite is just ONE of many dangers for a cat left to "roam" - I let my cat "outside" he loves it and I would not dream of keeping him indoors now permanently BUT I do not let him "ROAM" - thats the difference - when you let your cat roam - you have no idea where they are or how long they will be missing -

Would you let a child out to play for days on end to roam the streets ?? - you have a responsibility as a pet owner to ensure the safety of your cat whereever possible. If you lived on a farm with lots of fields and no cars or other cats or people about then YES I would say you could be more lenient but if you live in a built up area/town/street etc then you do have a duty to be more aware of what you cats are doing and provide the correct preventive care where possible.

As for your black cat - do you know where he is ?? if the answer is no then IMO he is lost until he comes thru that door.

All people are trying to do is help you see that just because your cats have not come to any danger at the moment this does not mean they never will - thats a pretty niaeve look really - you cannot predict the future - but you CAN prevent certain things by taking measures to protect them whilst they are out - ie nuetering,curfews, - but of course this is your choice. 

I do hope you never have any problems with your cat that goes outside but I think you will - because you are not monitoring him - it is inevitable.

My feeling is I take a chance everyday letting my cat out, and I worry like mad until he is in again - luckily my cat likes to stay close to home and has rules and curfews - but if he didnt u can bet your bottom dollar I would be out there looking for him and bringing him home!!

Good luck


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Yours is not a common male attitude at all.
All the men I know have a totally different attitude towards pets, a very similar attitude as has been described on this forum. But then, the men I know are responsible adults, some old enough to be your dad, others just getting married and starting a family, having young children, owning a house or in the process of buying one, making a life for themselves and their family.
They have come to realize their responsibility towards their loved ones, both human and animal, and they would not expose their cats to risks they would not expose their wife or children to.

Your attitude is not a general 'male' attitude, but a testosterone overload, 'little boy in grown man's body' attitude, the "Hey, no sweat, I can handle it, guys who can't are just softies" attitude.

It is the very same attitude that gets so disproportionally many young men killed in cars or on motrobikes, taken to hospital with alcohol poisoning or after alcohol-induced fights, or contracting sexually transmitted diseases. They know full well about the risks, but simply deny that it could ever happen to them, because they are cleverer than that.

Well, they aren't, and it DOES happen to them. Just like some of the horrid things that can happen to unsupervised, unneutered, free-roaming cats will eventually happen to yours if you don't change your attitude.

Your cats do not have the human brains to realize the dangers and make a well-considered choice. So while it is quite alright for you to be a cool dude and live a high-risk llife, please don't force your cats into a cool dude lifestyle. Cats are like children, they do love the free life, but they cannot see the dangers. You can, so please do, and act accordingly, even if you tend to shrug them off when you, yourself, are concerned.

It is like driving a car.
It's quite alright for an irresponsible driver to hit a tree and kill or maim himself, it's his own responsiblity and his own stupidity. But it is never alright to even *risk* hurting someone else by driving dangerously. Just read living instead of driving, and you have my exact view on your responsibilities as a cat slave.


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## WriterC (Jul 27, 2012)

theronstar said:


> Lol at your dramatics.


Really? I wouldn't have someone with your attitude teaching my children gymnastics.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

WriterC said:


> Really? I wouldn't have someone with your attitude teaching my children gymnastics.


I wouldn't have anyone with that attitude teach my children, full stop.
They will develop that attitude during puberty anyway, I wouldn't want them to believe is is condoned by someone they look up to as a 'responsible adult'......


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## WriterC (Jul 27, 2012)

theronstar said:


> Hmm, thanks for sharing this info with me. Those stats do sound worrying. It's a shame we can't communicate this to my black cat to get him to come home and spend some time here. He is neutered so I guess maybe this will help him less likely get into such a fight to cause this transmission.


That's not the shame, because that's totally doable. The real shame is that your upbringing has convinced you that you're right in everything.

You have responsibilities towards the animals that you legally own, but your hyper-masculine mindset has allowed you to convince yourself that you're right, and everyone else is wrong. That's not the way the world or society works.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

WriterC said:


> That's not the shame, because that's totally doable. The real shame is that your upbringing has convinced you that you're right in everything.
> 
> You have responsibilities towards the animals that you legally own, *but your hyper-masculine mindset has allowed you to convince yourself that you're right, *and everyone else is wrong. That's not the way the world or society works.


Clearly he's in fear of his masculinity, given that he fears my feminism. I wonder if he's the kind of bloke that expects his woman to be chained to the kitchen? Good luck with that! :lol:


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## Rebeccaxxx (Jul 20, 2011)

I have a cat that was rescued from a feral family and he prefers to be outdoors all the time in all weathers. I do care for him though, we had him neutered and microchipped when he was very young, we managed to get a collar on him so people know he has a home and we call for him every day to feed him. He doesn't come everyday and we do worry but that is his nature. I think it is true that some cats prefer to be outside but it is also true that their 'owners' should do their best to care for them and let the cat know it has a home if it wants it. 

As far as this refusal to not neuter the grey cat, I cannot understand it. Ron you have been given many reasons to neuter the cat, the main ones being the increased risk of disease, injury and more unwanted kittens being produced. What is your reason for not neutering your cat? It seems to be just that you like him, but if you like him, surely you want him to stay healthy? Has your cat had any vaccinations? Do you worm him and deflea him? I ask as if you haven't neutered him I worry if he has ever been to the vets at all, though I guess his previous owners might have vaccinated him.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I get really upset at the off-hand attitude if the stays away for days.....
I have a semi-feral cat, too, and she tends to come in at night when we are in bed, especially in summer. 
But if I haven't seen her for a day, I am worried sick. I installed a webcam especially to monitor the cats' comings and goings, and especially hers, to be sure she is OK and still coming home.

I have done everything to try and turn her into a house cat, I tried to keep her in, but she pines away if she cannot live in her precious park. I have accepted it, because she will not have it any other way, but I simply cannot understand someone willfully creating a situation where a cat lives like a semi-feral, with all the risks involved.


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## Rebeccaxxx (Jul 20, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> I get really upset at the off-hand attitude if the stays away for days.....
> I have a semi-feral cat, too, and she tends to come in at night when we are in bed, especially in summer.
> But if I haven't seen her for a day, I am worried sick. I installed a webcam especially to monitor the cats' comings and goings, and especially hers, to be sure she is OK and still coming home.
> 
> I have done everything to try and turn her into a house cat, I tried to keep her in, but she pines away if she cannot live in her precious park. I have accepted it, because she will not have it any other way, but I simply cannot understand someone willfully creating a situation where a cat lives like a semi-feral, with all the risks involved.


I agree with you, you should still care for a cat and do your best even if they prefer to be outside. A webcam is a good idea, I might look in to that. I just wondered if this cat was also semi-feral, but it seems as though he just doesn't get on with the other cats in the house and would prefer to be stray, in which case if it were me I would rehome him, not abandon him.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Rebeccaxxx said:


> I have a cat that was rescued from a feral family and he prefers to be outdoors all the time in all weathers. I do care for him though, we had him neutered and microchipped when he was very young, we managed to get a collar on him so people know he has a home and we call for him every day to feed him. He doesn't come everyday and we do worry but that is his nature. I think it is true that some cats prefer to be outside but it is also true that their 'owners' should do their best to care for them and let the cat know it has a home if it wants it.
> 
> As far as this refusal to not neuter the grey cat, I cannot understand it. Ron you have been given many reasons to neuter the cat, the main ones being the increased risk of disease, injury and more unwanted kittens being produced. What is your reason for not neutering your cat? It seems to be just that you like him, but if you like him, surely you want him to stay healthy? Has your cat had any vaccinations? Do you worm him and deflea him? I ask as if you haven't neutered him I worry if he has ever been to the vets at all, though I guess his previous owners might have vaccinated him.


Hey Rebecca, only now you and I think Jiskefet are touching on similar situations to me. So far everyone else had talked about having the model cat that sits by the fireside and does not go out.

The exact reason that I let them out is because they do pine for the outdoors if they noticed they are locked in and all my black cat does is hide behind my sofa or in the wardrobe. He will hiss at me or his brother if we get into his 'personal' space.

I've tried to say many many times before to people that he simply just likes to do his own thing but yet the consensus is that I don't care.

I know he is around because I ALWAYS bring him up with the neighbours. I can keep a 'virtual' diary as a consequence of this and know that yesterday he was seen sunning on the roof of someone's extension or another day chasing a bird.

As it happens last night I caught him in the kitchen eating out of his bowl. It does go down at times when my other cat has already eaten so I know it is him. He will just bolt out of the house again when he sees me because he knows I will try to lock him in.

Ever since I let my grey cat outdoors his longest duration out of sight is a couple of hours. He is always wanting to be fed! Or if he is out in the evening I will feel something disturbing me in the middle of the night and that is him coming in to sleep on the pillow.

In terms of me being unsure of how far he travels I can say as much as he follows me when I leave until the end of our street and then he walks no further. Are you saying that potentially he is confident to breach that distance when on his own but gets afraid to breach it in my company. That doesn't make sense but then I guess I have a lot to learn in terms of cat ownership.

I picked up the the de flea and de worm solution from the vets or supermarket and squeeze it on their neck or on their food - although if I am honest the black cat doesn't get near me so I can't say this for him.

Though with respect to the parents here who have no appetite for risk, good luck with your children ever advancing past a roly poly


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

theronstar said:


> Hey Rebecca, only now you and I think Jiskefet are touching on similar situations to me. So far everyone else had talked about having the model cat that sits by the fireside and does not go out.
> 
> The exact reason that I let them out is because they do pine for the outdoors if they noticed they are locked in and all my black cat does is hide behind my sofa or in the wardrobe. He will hiss at me or his brother if we get into his 'personal' space.
> 
> ...


Your attitude really is disgusting. No one has talked about a model cat that sits by the fireside. You clearly have an issue with women telling you their opinion differs to yours.

If your cat wants to go outside, there's nothing wrong with it. I personally don't agree with it, _however,_ it is ultimately down to the cat. If it prefers to be outside, let it me outside. The important bits you're missing are these:

It is one thing for a cat to go outside, it is another thing for it to roam. This is why so many people build runs or they catproof the garden. Their cat gets to go outside _in safety_. When a cat roams, you have absolutely no idea who the cat is coming into contact with. How do you know someone a mile down the road doesn't poison cats? Cats don't stick to one area, especially entire ones. So while your grey cat is neutered, your black cat is not, meaning he will roam for miles in search of a female in heat and he will get into scraps with other toms. He is also highly likely to contract STDs which are often deadly.

Both of those points - the potential for harm from people or other cats, and the high chance of impregnating a female, getting into fights and contracting STDs - these are the points you are missing or perhaps blatantly ignoring.

Risk will always be there, but there are ways of reducing that risk. You clearly don't give a monkey's about your cats' welfares because you have no interest in reducing risk. You have a heck of a lot to learn about cat ownership, but you clearly aren't interested in learning, you'd rather focus on 'feminists by the fireside' busting your balls because, how shocking, they know more than you. To be 23 and have this attitude is shameful, it's men like you that ruin the good image of the rest of your sex.


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## Rebeccaxxx (Jul 20, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Hey Rebecca, only now you and I think Jiskefet are touching on similar situations to me. So far everyone else had talked about having the model cat that sits by the fireside and does not go out.
> 
> The exact reason that I let them out is because they do pine for the outdoors if they noticed they are locked in and all my black cat does is hide behind my sofa or in the wardrobe. He will hiss at me or his brother if we get into his 'personal' space.
> 
> ...


I haven't heard of a make of flea stuff that is a liquid that you put on the food - please make sure you read the instructions as there are a lot of horror stories on here about accidental poisoning (I guess you probably do but just in case!)

As far as the question on cats roaming, they do go further than you think, neutered or otherwise. I had a cat that would follow me to the the end of the road and then cry when I crossed it as he didn't follow but obviously wanted to come with me. He did however roam far and wide through peoples back gardens, like you the neighbours would tell me they had seen him, he was quite a character and would sleep on the beds of my neighbours, and they would feed him as well. In march my 1 year old cat was run over much further from my house than I ever expected her to go, I imagine she just got carried away chasing a leaf or something as she was bit of a silly cat.

You still haven't said why you won't get your grey cat neutered. For me the main reason I do it is they are more likely to catch stds from stray cats and of course produce unwanted kitties. And I am not keen on the stink from them marking their territory, I used to live in an area where a tom cat sprayed my front door every so often, and it made the whole hallway smell and was a nightmare to get rid of. I am really surprised this hasn't happened to you or your neighbours. I always get my cats neutered so have never experienced the unpleasant behaviour described by the other posters here, though from the reading I have done I am sure it is common behaviour in tom cats. It is well documented that tom cats roam further than neutered males in general, which would be a concern for many cat owners. I also do wonder if your black cat is too afraid of the grey tom cat to stay in the house, his behaviour to me sounds like a cat that is afraid of something. Perhaps he did not get on with the grey cat and then developed a fear of you as you have tried to keep him in? It is hard to say what he is afraid of from reading this thread, but that would be my first guess if he is not from a feral/semi-feral mother originally. A multi cat household is generally more harmonious when the cats have been neutered as they are not as territorial, so that is another good reason to get a cat neutered if you are going to have more than one.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

you can take a horse to water but u cannot make it drink !!! ..... I reallly don't think this guy is going to listen he has his own ideas and that's that .....just bear in mind though ron when something does happen that u may need advice on regarding yr cats we are the same people u will come running to


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> *you can take a horse to water but u cannot make it drink !!! *..... I reallly don't think this guy is going to listen he has his own ideas and that's that .....just bear in mind though ron when something does happen that u may need advice on regarding yr cats we are the same people u will come running to


So very true - although I like Pete Burns version to Jodie Marsh when they were in BB


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## WriterC (Jul 27, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> So very true - although I like Pete Burns version to Jodie Marsh when they were in BB


I'm disgusted that you could mistake a classic Dorothy Parker quote to anything involving Jodie Marsh!

It's amazing what she could come up with when asked to use 'horticulture' in a sentence.


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## egyptianreggae (May 26, 2012)

The most ridiculous and outrageous thing on this thread is the suggestion that children should aspire to forms of physical activity beyond the roly poly, which to my mind is the most noble pursuit a child can hope to achieve. Many a child has executed a perfect roly poly and then abstained from all forms of organised enforced physical exercise and are none the worse, myself included. We can't all be sports coaches, and a good thing too.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Rebeccaxxx said:


> I haven't heard of a make of flea stuff that is a liquid that you put on the food - please make sure you read the instructions as there are a lot of horror stories on here about accidental poisoning (I guess you probably do but just in case!)
> 
> As far as the question on cats roaming, they do go further than you think, neutered or otherwise. I had a cat that would follow me to the the end of the road and then cry when I crossed it as he didn't follow but obviously wanted to come with me. He did however roam far and wide through peoples back gardens, like you the neighbours would tell me they had seen him, he was quite a character and would sleep on the beds of my neighbours, and they would feed him as well. In march my 1 year old cat was run over much further from my house than I ever expected her to go, I imagine she just got carried away chasing a leaf or something as she was bit of a silly cat.
> 
> You still haven't said why you won't get your grey cat neutered. For me the main reason I do it is they are more likely to catch stds from stray cats and of course produce unwanted kitties. And I am not keen on the stink from them marking their territory, I used to live in an area where a tom cat sprayed my front door every so often, and it made the whole hallway smell and was a nightmare to get rid of. I am really surprised this hasn't happened to you or your neighbours. I always get my cats neutered so have never experienced the unpleasant behaviour described by the other posters here, though from the reading I have done I am sure it is common behaviour in tom cats. It is well documented that tom cats roam further than neutered males in general, which would be a concern for many cat owners. I also do wonder if your black cat is too afraid of the grey tom cat to stay in the house, his behaviour to me sounds like a cat that is afraid of something. Perhaps he did not get on with the grey cat and then developed a fear of you as you have tried to keep him in? It is hard to say what he is afraid of from reading this thread, but that would be my first guess if he is not from a feral/semi-feral mother originally. A multi cat household is generally more harmonious when the cats have been neutered as they are not as territorial, so that is another good reason to get a cat neutered if you are going to have more than one.


Hey Rebecca, I definitely check the paperwork with their meds. That liquid I squeeze on his neck. The de worming tablets in his food.

I haven't had any of the problems the tom cats are meant to give you with my grey cat. No spraying, fighting, roaming, mating...... Or if so he is hiding the evidence fantastically well. If he had been doing any of the like then I would have no way to defend not getting him neutered.

I do wonder about this tom cat behaviour that all the literature is saying he would display through being un neutered. He is around two years old now. When would that behaviour have manifested - if it was going to?

Every time I write on this forum he is sitting on my lap. I am sure he is subliminally telling me don't give in to them.

I really doubt my black cat is afraid of my grey cat because I have only ever seen growling or swiping from the black cat at the grey cat. The nearest my grey cat came to displaying aggression is when I tickled his tummy and he nipped me and hopped off my lap but then he hopped straight back onto my lap.

I truly have come to think that my black cat doesn't like me and thus dislikes his brother for liking me. I did forget to add that they are brothers - though I am sure different dads because they look nothing alike.

If neutering is meant to work then what I want to know is why my black cat has not changed at all in temperament since his operation?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

theronstar said:


> Hey Rebecca, I definitely check the paperwork with their meds. That liquid I squeeze on his neck. The de worming tablets in his food.
> 
> I haven't had any of the problems the tom cats are meant to give you with my grey cat. No spraying, fighting, roaming, mating...... Or if so he is hiding the evidence fantastically well. If he had been doing any of the like then I would have no way to defend not getting him neutered.
> 
> ...


Neutering is NOT like waving a magic wand  - cats will STILL be terrotorial and fight with other tom cats - they will however not have the urge to mate - so all of the above is REDUCED = hense you are MINIMISING any potential risk - there will always be SOME risk with letting a cat outdoors but that is a choice the owner makes - like we have told you now over and over again - if you wish to let your cats out then do so RESPONSIBLY its not just about a tom cats behaviour !! its also ethical - its to stop the passing on of disease and to stop more unwanted litters of kittens being born - do you know how many kittens get dumped ?? how many are killed ?? you have to think about the bigger picture NOT just be selfish and think about what you want just because your cat is not showing classic signs of being un-neutered.

As for the cats disliking each other because one likes you - come on can you hear how ridiculous that sounds ?? they are NOT HUMAN they will not have those kinds of thoughts and emotions - one is entire and one is not - there will be rivalry.

IF you have read all the posts on here and all the literature about cats all with the common theme of neutering and health checks etc and you STILL dont believe then on your head be it - good luck for the future with your cats - its like flogging a donkey with you and you will never learn .

:nono:


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

theronstar said:


> No spraying, fighting, roaming, mating......
> How do you know, though? He does go out sometimes, doesn't he? Or if so he is hiding the evidence fantastically well. If he had been doing any of the like then I would have no way to defend not getting him neutered.
> 
> I do wonder about this tom cat behaviour that all the literature is saying he would display through being un neutered. He is around two years old now. When would that behaviour have manifested - if it was going to? He may be a late developer and once they start spraying, it is an extremely difficult habit to break
> ...


Please consider neutering your grey. It won't change his behaviour negatively, but will most likely make him even even more loving. I have a male neutered cat and he is the most loving boy you can imagine. However, it is not as if he is a couch potato, he still loves to play and get up to mischief like any other cats.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

theronstar said:


> Hey Rebecca, I definitely check the paperwork with their meds. That liquid I squeeze on his neck. The de worming tablets in his food.


Why do you keep replying to one member when there are a lot of us asking you questions?



theronstar said:


> I haven't had any of the problems the tom cats are meant to give you with my grey cat. No spraying, fighting, roaming, mating...... Or if so he is hiding the evidence fantastically well. If he had been doing any of the like then I would have no way to defend not getting him neutered.


You have no evidence of this tom behaviour because you let him outside. Are you there with him every second he's outside, holding his paw, seeing what he gets up to? I would imagine not, therefore you have absolutely no idea where he is and what he's going. He _is_ roaming - he is leaving your garden and your line of sight to the point where you do not know where he goes every day. That is roaming.

You can't defend him not getting neutered anyway. I shudder to think how many litters he has sired since you've had him. To put it in perspective, say he sires one litter a week. Say that's since January. Each litter has an average of 4 kits. So that's roughly about 38 weeks. So since January, your tom has potentially sired *152 kittens.* The chances of those kittens being neutered, rehomed and kept at home is about 1 in 20. So roughly 7 of those kittens will be in a home for the rest of their lives, be it short or long. Roughly 4 or 5 of those 20 (maybe that's a single litter) will get picked up by a rescue and tried to be rehomed. They'll be shunted from rescue to home to rescue to home, always with some excuse. They'll get to 2, 3, 4, 5 still living in a rescue with little human contact. They'll be stressed, miserable and probably ill, either because of an STD given to them by the mother in the womb or because their living conditions are far from healthy, regardless of the rescue's facilities. They may be picked up, they may not, they may just be put down to make room for more kittens, maybe the ones sired by your boy. So that's 12 out of 20 kittens. The final 8 remain entire and wild. Let's say 4 of them are boys. In 9 months, one boy can sire roughly 152 kittens. 4 boys will sire *608 kittens.* Are you beginning to see the bigger picture? These estimates have been generous, as it's unlikely a tom with sire just one litter a week. It's *not* about behaviour, it's about *responsible ownership.*



theronstar said:


> I do wonder about this tom cat behaviour that all the literature is saying he would display through being un neutered. He is around two years old now. When would that behaviour have manifested - if it was going to?


Again, you don't know if he's displaying the behaviours because you aren't with him 24/7.



theronstar said:


> Every time I write on this forum he is sitting on my lap. I am sure he is subliminally telling me don't give in to them.


Eeerrrmm no he's not. He's a cat. They don't understand technology. He just wants a cuddle.



theronstar said:


> I really doubt my black cat is afraid of my grey cat because I have only ever seen growling or swiping from the black cat at the grey cat. The nearest my grey cat came to displaying aggression is when I tickled his tummy and he nipped me and hopped off my lap but then he hopped straight back onto my lap.


The reason your black cat is attacking first is because he's giving your grey a warning to say "I'm not pushover". Cats are also all talk and no action, they make such a racket but will rarely (unless entire) cause a fight. There is a very significant risk of your grey attacking your black, if your black decides to move back in. As far as your grey is concerned, your house is his territory and, being entire, he definitely will not take kindly to competition.



theronstar said:


> I truly have come to think that my black cat doesn't like me and thus dislikes his brother for liking me. I did forget to add that they are brothers - though I am sure different dads because they look nothing alike.


No, the black doesn't dislike the grey because of you  They are not human, they don't associate with that. The reason your black dislikes his brother is because his brother is entire and so poses a real threat, as the testosterone will cause a fight and the black doesn't want to come off the worst. Again with cats, it's all talk and no trousers, they'll hiss and threaten and yowl, but that's just a warning to each other. That's it.

Re genetics - kits from the same litter with the same parents can be two different colours, it will depend on the genes of the parents.



theronstar said:


> If neutering is meant to work then what I want to know is why my black cat has not changed at all in temperament since his operation?


As said previously, neutering is not a magic solution. The older a tom gets without being neutered, the more he adopts tom behaviours. The later you leave it, the more likely it is that the behaviours will stay, even after neutering. So his behaviour is your fault, not his, you should've got him neutered months ago, so you wouldn't have this problem. But same old, same old. I know better than seasoned cat owners who are clearly devout feminists sitting by a brick fire, clacking the knitting needles with their perfect little elderly cat lying next to them.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

People, just give it up.

I am beginning to beleive this guy was serious at the start but is now just trolling because he likes to rile us.

Either that or he is plain stupid.
And there is no reasoning with stupidity.

I am sorry for the cats, but I am dead sure the day will come when we will find out if cool dudes do indeed care when their cats get poisoned, run over or mutilated by a dog. 

If he ever finds out what happened to the cat, that is. Ron doesn't seem overly bothered if his cat stays away for days on end, so he may never start looking for him until long after someone has disposed of the body.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Can I please just make sure my post on the previous page is noted, as it contains shocking figures about how many kittens Ron's grey could actually sire while remaining entire and being allowed to roam.



Rabbitmonkee said:


> I shudder to think how many litters he has sired since you've had him. To put it in perspective, say he sires one litter a week. Say that's since January. Each litter has an average of 4 kits. So that's roughly about 38 weeks. So since January, your tom has potentially sired *152 kittens.* The chances of those kittens being neutered, rehomed and kept at home is about 1 in 20. So roughly 7 of those kittens will be in a home for the rest of their lives, be it short or long. Roughly 4 or 5 of those 20 (maybe that's a single litter) will get picked up by a rescue and tried to be rehomed. They'll be shunted from rescue to home to rescue to home, always with some excuse. They'll get to 2, 3, 4, 5 still living in a rescue with little human contact. They'll be stressed, miserable and probably ill, either because of an STD given to them by the mother in the womb or because their living conditions are far from healthy, regardless of the rescue's facilities. They may be picked up, they may not, they may just be put down to make room for more kittens, maybe the ones sired by your boy. So that's 12 out of 20 kittens. The final 8 remain entire and wild. Let's say 4 of them are boys. In 9 months, one boy can sire roughly 152 kittens. 4 boys will sire *608 kittens.* Are you beginning to see the bigger picture? These estimates have been generous, as it's unlikely a tom with sire just one litter a week. It's *not* about behaviour, it's about *responsible ownership.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> People, just give it up.
> 
> I am beginning to beleive this guy was serious at the start but is now just trolling because he likes to rile us.
> 
> ...


Its not often I say this on here as I always try to see things from the OP point of view but in this instance I agree - time to walk away from this :nonod:


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

theronstar said:


> He is an Egyptian Mau and I've read their good with cars.


This was where I think we should have reached for the popcorn!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2012)

I think Ron is the product of an isolated European/non 1st world upbringing. To be honest, my first thought was he was an uneducated, rural German, in his 70s, who had moved to the city. His bizarre idea of feminists KNITTING, his 50's attitude to animal welfare, his obsession with his animals fantasy lives, running free, responsible for fathering feral, sickly, desperate creatures, many to die, after months or years of struggle, and just shrugging... His understanding of animals is non existant, his education in biological sciences is non existant, and he's TWENTY THREE!!!!!!! SURELY this is not a Brit educated 23??????? This is not educated.

Yes, his buddy would probably not have a problem with him not desexing his cat. He probably has the same background and education. It isn't as tho a 25 yo male with a double degree in animal behaviour/ethics would search out his company. We aren't talking even low level tertiary level understanding of biology. We are talking no rational common sense. I'm just desperate to know his background , if this is the serious attitude and beliefs he has at 23. I am in shock. I've known of people just not caring, but name me a 23 yo male NOT living in the wilds of Eastern Europe, that associates feminists with knitting. I have to say, that will be a running joke with all the women who read this, forevermore.

As jiskefet says, he has desexed the black, because it doesn't like him, and if he hears anything that does not jell with his 50s view of the world, it's ultra feminists plotting to remove ANY male testicles possible, plotting to shake up his strange little world, WHEN THEY CAN FIND TIME IN THEIR KNITTING SCHEDULE. 

He's not listening. He doesn't care about his cats welfare. You can only laugh in shock, so many times before the repetitive ignorance and uncaring slackness starts to offend. He's no longer doing it from ignorance, but from a refusal to accept that he is ignorant and wrong, because most of the people advising him are experienced women.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Atta girl! Hell.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Well, I, for one, DO believe he is 23 and urban.

Unfortunately, this seems to be what the new generation of men, at least a shockingly high percentage of them, is truly like.
Utterly spoilt, with an attitude like they know it all and the world belongs to them, and whoever disagrees with them does so at their peril. They really seem to be proud of their stupidity....

Is this the result of a modern upbringing: kids not being corrected for their attitude, every decision of their parents subject to fierce debate from the children, and teddy bear, pussy cat and doggy dog, by mouth of the children, ruling the house?

Or is it the result of television and playstation games?

They say the children are the future....
Well, the present hope of the nation really appears to believe war criminals are heroes and girls have 5-ft legs, 2 inch waists, balloon tits and cow eyes and love nothing better than getting raped.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I mean, let's be serious....
a 23 year-old MAN telling us in earnest that his cat is sitting on his lap telling him not to listen to the women who say he should have kitty's balls chopped off.....

It sounds just like a 3 year-old saying that he won't eat his supper beccause teddy doesn't like brussels sprouts.....

Ron, do yourself AND your cats a favour and grow up.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey,

I have nothing against any of you and I genuinely do value your advice. I do troll friends online sometimes though this is not the time or place for it.

I accept my unfixed cat could be out breeding/fighting/spraying but why I doubt this is that I know about 5 cat owners on these streets. All of which have had him come in or outside their house.

One owner said she instinctively hosed him because she thought he wanted to fight her cat though when she came here to pick up her cat (the white and ginger one I mentioned before) she obviously realised he was not a threat.

I don't think my grey cat would be able to discern houses that will likely report back to me bad behaviour and thus take his tom cat characteristics elsewhere? Hence why I have been struggling to envisage what you have been saying - not that I disagreeing there is factual basis to it.

I do however know two owners who routinely neutered their toms. Both of which noticed their cats became depressed and were never the same again and in one of the cases the cat ran away.

Thus their hindsight was that they would if need have been experienced the behaviour you mentioned - if it ever were to manifest - before going to neuter them. I guess because you never came across such cases - or at least you haven't mentioned them to me - why you just think I'm being completely irrational.


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## egyptianreggae (May 26, 2012)

Jonescat said:


> This was where I think we should have reached for the popcorn!


Photoshopped picture of Egyptian Mau wearing shades and driving a red shiny convertible to thread!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2012)

More like a male cat on it's back, displaying it's testes, with:

SHHHHHHH!!! Ron's thinking....


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Well said househen!:thumbsup:

I must say I was a bit taken aback when the OP said he is only 23!! To me, his age doesn't seem to fit with such outdated views on animal welfare!

However it is true there are many 23 yr olds who are arrogant enough to believe they know best about everything under the sun, and are too self-important to listen to advice from people more knowledgeable and experienced than themselves.
A bit of humility wouldn't go amiss sometimes.

But, on balance I agree with Jiskefet -- the OP began his thread in a serious enough manner, but has now descended into having a laugh at our expense, by making deliberately obtuse and irrational posts to wind us up. Time to kick the subject into touch folks!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

theronstar said:


> I do however know two owners who routinely neutered their toms. Both of which noticed their cats became depressed and were never the same again and in one of the cases the cat ran away.


First of all I think it highly unlikely for a tom to get depressed after neutering, though they may feel groggy and out of sorts for a bit due to the sedation. And if he is oversensitive to the sedation, he may feel out of sorts for some time. But that has to do with the type of sedation and the amount of sedation necessary.
Then there is the question at what age they neutered? It is best to neuter young, before they start producing testosterone and become fertile. Once they start behaving like adult males, you will have more problems, whether you neuter tehm or leave them entire. You really should have neutered them when we first told you so, when they were 6 or 7 months old, that would have been far better for your cats. The op is easier, they need less sedation, and they are not yet under the influence of high testosterone levels that would take weeks, or even months, to wear off in an older cat.

We have an entire tom in the neighbourhood, possibly more than one, that sprays against all the front doors and cat flaps of houses with other cats, especially in spring. It has been going on for at least 5 or 6 years, and only last year did we catch a glimpse of the cat that is responsible. And we still don't know if he is the only one. This blasted cat I saw spraying against my door has also managed to wreck one of my cat flaps and break into my house on 2 seperate occasions. But even though this cat has lived here for at least 5 to 7 years, I still do not know who owns him. I know he must live at least 3 streets away, though....

So, no, unless you specifically go round to EVERYONE within a ½ mile radius and ask them if they have any problems with an anonymous tomcat, you will not know where your cat is causing trouble.

And as for the cat running away post neutering, that's just a coincidence. Cats DO run away, whether they have been neutered or not. It is far more likely the cat was spooked by something, ran and lost his bearings, or was taken by someone else. The only connection with neutering would be if he had been let out too soon, when the sedation had not fully worn off. In that case he may have been kind of hung over, and have lost his way where, otherwise, he would have been able to find his way home.

Once again you and your friends are attributing human emotions to a cat, and presuming a causality that simply isn't there. In effect, you are still speaking for your teddy bear.


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

OP

I honestly cant fathom your attitude towards your cats but I have a question, are they both microchipped?

I ask because about 36% of all strays are put to sleep - you will undoubtley say but your cats aren;t strays right?

Well technically your black cat now is as you have stated he doesn't come home or very rarely at best.

AND your grey cat could easily be mistaken for being a stray for one main reason - 90 % of stray cats are entire (as in still have the ability to make kittens) so even though your grey cat is lovely to you and some of your neighbours, he may be already being classed as a stray and being fed by someone else (or annoying someone else!) and at some point be picked up by or taken to a rescue where they will scan him for a chip and if none present have to wait for an owner to contact them, most rescues will give 7-14 days then they will either put him up to be rehomed (quite a few rehome to different areas to ensure they dont return to straying ways) OR he could be one of the 36 % unlucky ones and end up being pts for the simple fact you didn't get him neutered!

Or how about your cat may have already fathered so many kittens and with ALL the rescue centres being FULL and many with closed waiting lists that those kittens your cat has fathered are taken in as abandoned or stray and some poor 3 year old perfectly healthy and wonderfully loving black and white cat gets put to sleep to make room for them.

You are just truly being selfish for your own pride and not seeing the bigger picture :nonod:


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

theronstar said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have nothing against any of you and I genuinely do value your advice. I do troll friends online sometimes though this is not the time or place for it.
> 
> ...


The reason your neighbours are not reporting back to you is because your grey lad sees those houses at his territory. The neuters that are there do not pose a threat to his territory, therefore he does not attack. If you went with him on his wonderings, you will see that he does spray, he does fight, etc. To say that he does not go out of his territory is rubbish (before you think of saying it). He is an entire tom, he will roam to find a female. That is what they do. It is not a concious choice, it is a hormonal impulse. And there's no 'could be' about breeding. He's doing it. Simple as.

As for lazy neuters, that is entirely the fault of the owner. If a cat is neutered early enough, is given the right food and the right level of stimuli, it will not get fat or lazy. I wonder if your friends feed dry food...

I for one don't think you're irrational. I think you're an idiot. Being 21 and at uni, you can imagine how many 23 year old lads I have in my acquaintance, and I have to say you're the most surprising 23 year old I've ever met. All of them have a 'I know better than you' attitude, but yours takes the biscuit. Rather than listening to your friends, do you not think it would be better to listen to seasoned cat owners (there are plenty of men on here who think the way the women do) and take good advice from experienced people? It is not a gender divide, it's a cop yourself on divide.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Do you really want your grey cat to be an annoyance to others? You don't see where he goes or what he does. Just because there are 5 cats that you know of doesn't mean there aren't feral cats, strays and other roamers around. And I can assure you there are, especially in an urban setting. I myself have 4 ferals living next door. There are two unneutered toms that I am aware of in the neighbourhood (I haven't been able to find our who they belong to, but they are not feral). These two are pests: they spray on front doors, fight with other cats (in their own yards!), yowl and steal. I am a cat lover but I have had many an evil thought about these two. Can you imagine what would happen to them if a cat-hater got hold of them one day? Be a responsible cat owner and a considerate neighbour and get grey fixed.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

He simply doens't want to know.

Apparently, Ron's motto is: If I can't see it, it isn't there


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

It grieves me to say this but OK I will get my grey cat neutered. If he changes from his nice jolly mood because of it I will hold you all responsible and I will NEVER let you hear the last of it.

The vets are only open tomorrow morning til 12 so I think it will have to be next week. In any case I will call in the morning and book him in. I'll even ask the vet to put his bits in a special delivery bag and let's say the highest bidder out of all of you get them as a trophy on your mantelpiece?

As for my black cat - yes he is micro chipped. I also got him a collar when we went for his post op check up though getting him to allow me to put it on will be fun.

Please, if there was an effigy burning or voodoo dolling of me can it cease? In fact, I'll be reasonable. You can continue with that until you get his bits as proof!

Have a great weekend all. x


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)




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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

I'd like those balls in a bag please. It'll help me with my ultra-feminism and hey, it might even make me knit just that bit faster!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

T


Rabbitmonkee said:


> I'd like those balls in a bag please. It'll help me with my ultra-feminism and hey, it might make me knit just that bit faster!


Hey we cud knit some ball warmers :w00t:

Glad u r finally listenin ron  and if u don't keep yr word its yr balls we will want in the bag!!!:001_tongue:


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> The reason your neighbours are not reporting back to you is because your grey lad sees those houses at his territory. The neuters that are there do not pose a threat to his territory, therefore he does not attack. If you went with him on his wonderings, you will see that he does spray, he does fight, etc. To say that he does not go out of his territory is rubbish (before you think of saying it). He is an entire tom, he will roam to find a female. That is what they do. It is not a concious choice, it is a hormonal impulse. And there's no 'could be' about breeding. He's doing it. Simple as.
> 
> As for lazy neuters, that is entirely the fault of the owner. If a cat is neutered early enough, is given the right food and the right level of stimuli, it will not get fat or lazy. I wonder if your friends feed dry food...
> 
> ...


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Calvine said:


> I appreciate what you guys are saying about entire Toms etc, but I have a spayed female who sprays still at the age of 18. It is not as smelly as Tom cat spray, admittedly. All my cats are spayed or castrated, but this one will back up to a wall and spray. Do we know why female cats do this??


Could be a multitude of reasons, but the biggest popping up atm is stress. Is there anything big that's happened in the household? When she sprays, what are you cleaning it with? Have you taken her to the vet in case there's something more sinister going on?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I have had 2 female cats that sprayed, both torties (don't know if it has anything to do with the spraying, but torties are supposed to be highly strung and feisty) Both did so out of stress over dominance issues with other females.

So maybe the pecking order amongst your female cats has been under debate all along, or the spraying cat was simply advertizing her superiority.

@Ron
I am very glad you are going to have your other cat meutered. it is so much safer for him, and for the other cats as well.

About the collar...
I see where you are coming from and I agree it is a good way to show other people where he belongs, but, personally, I am not a fan of collars. I have seen cats seriously hurt by them. Collar streched and cat sticking a paw through, which can lead to ugly wounds in the armpit and along the chest and neck. Even worse is lower jaw getting caught in the collar. It may cause a broken or dislocated jaw. And cats have been known to hang themselves on a collar.

If you use a collar, use an adjustable one with safety catch, but after you have measured the cat's neck and adjusted it to the correct size, cut the collar to size and stitch the catch back on at the correct lenght.
I don't know how good you are at needlework, but maybe you can find some knitting feminist to do it for you... 

If the collar is too long and is adjusted to the correct length the way the manufacturer means you to, the double bit forms a sort of loop. If they catch this loop on a branch, the catch will not always snap open, and the loop may work as a noose and strangle the cat.

Just try it out....
Adjust the collar length to your wrist, and stick a pencil or a stick through the loop and pull. Depending on the angle, the catch will either open or the collar will pull tight like a noose.


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

Can I recommend a book?


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## Rebeccaxxx (Jul 20, 2011)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> The reason your neighbours are not reporting back to you is because your grey lad sees those houses at his territory. The neuters that are there do not pose a threat to his territory, therefore he does not attack. If you went with him on his wonderings, you will see that he does spray, he does fight, etc. To say that he does not go out of his territory is rubbish (before you think of saying it). He is an entire tom, he will roam to find a female. That is what they do. It is not a concious choice, it is a hormonal impulse. And there's no 'could be' about breeding. He's doing it. Simple as.
> 
> As for lazy neuters, that is entirely the fault of the owner. If a cat is neutered early enough, is given the right food and the right level of stimuli, it will not get fat or lazy. I wonder if your friends feed dry food...
> 
> I for one don't think you're irrational. I think you're an idiot. Being 21 and at uni, you can imagine how many 23 year old lads I have in my acquaintance, and I have to say you're the most surprising 23 year old I've ever met. All of them have a 'I know better than you' attitude, but yours takes the biscuit. Rather than listening to your friends, do you not think it would be better to listen to seasoned cat owners (there are plenty of men on here who think the way the women do) and take good advice from experienced people? It is not a gender divide, it's a cop yourself on divide.


I'm sorry to say this but I feel I have to now. If you belittle and insult someone, they will not listen to what you have to say and you achieve very little.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Rebeccaxxx said:


> I'm sorry to say this but I feel I have to now. If you belittle and insult someone, they will not listen to what you have to say and you achieve very little.


Agreed...
But we all got the distinct impression Ron was deliberately riling us, insulting and belittling us and deliberately taking the micky with his childish reasoning and anti-feminist rants.... 

So I am not at all surprised at the reactions he got...


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Rebeccaxxx said:


> I'm sorry to say this but I feel I have to now. If you belittle and insult someone, they will not listen to what you have to say and you achieve very little.


I will belittle someone who's put me in a ridiculous stereotype, yes. I was very nice and polite up until that point.


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## Rebeccaxxx (Jul 20, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> Agreed...
> But we all got the distinct impression Ron was deliberately riling us, insulting and belittling us and deliberately taking the micky with his childish reasoning and anti-feminist rants....
> 
> So I am not at all surprised at the reactions he got...


I thought he might be trolling too, but I wasn't ready to give up on those kitties!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Well done Ron -- your'e a *star*!!:thumbup: (A *Ronstar* in fact)


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## Rebeccaxxx (Jul 20, 2011)

Rabbitmonkee said:


> I will belittle someone who's put me in a ridiculous stereotype, yes. I was very nice and polite up until that point.


it's just a shame as you obviously know what you are talking about and make a lot of good points which can get lost in the insults. I think it is more effective to point out that the other person is wrong in their assumption and then move on.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Rebeccaxxx said:


> it's just a shame as you obviously know what you are talking about and make a lot of good points which can get lost in the insults. I think it is more effective to point out that the other person is wrong in their assumption and then move on.


Yes, you have a fair point, I'll keep it in mind for the future


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Have you had someone go to a pet forum and then troll before?

What a sad life such a person lives lol. I mean, I do troll but then I will directly load it onto a social networking forum because it is so easy.

Whereas here one has to register, upload pics of cats, a profile..... so I think the odds are near on impossible you'd get trolls here?

To be honest I've been involved in far more heated debates than this online before so this was not inflammatory for me. I just became more worried that because of this you would be less likely to offer advice to new posters in the future.

Btw, I just saw this article in the Sunday papers and want to know if you agree with what this lady is saying, lol. Lib Dem conference: Minister Lynne Featherstone blames domestic violence on topless Page 3 photos | Mail Online

Lastly, I think that female cat is spraying because she wants a night with my tom before he goes to the vets!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Better take this one to a new thread in the general chat, Ron 
But, for what it's worth, she is utterly right and utterly wrong.

Page 3 has nothing to do with domestic violence, or violence in general.
Violence against women is about power rather than sex.

But being forced to look at page 3 in a public space, like she describes sitting opposite someone on the train, can be confronting and insulting for people. We have many different cultures and religions in our towns nowadays, foreign as wel as indiginous, and we have to respect the fact that many people simply resent being confronted with these pictures in public space.

As for me, personally, I don't want to be included, even passively, by observing, in someone else's sexual interests or preferences, just like I don't want to be confronted with their religious beliefs. Everybody is free to believe what he wants, but don't try to convert me or tell me how to spend my sundays. And everybody can look at sexy or dirty pictures, but leave me out of it. I just don't want to know.


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

We get *loads* of trolls. Some of them come on with some bullsh*t story about a cat being ill to get us all in a tizz and then they come out with the truth. Some other people register and then post things to deliberately start arguments. It got so bad at one point *I* got accused of being a troll on my own thread, just because I was going through a very bit rough patch. So we tend to come down hard and heavy now, which can be off-putting for new members, but at least some of them stick around!

We're always ready to offer advise to new members or new owners, even if the same thing comes up again and again, but we do get very frustrated when people come on refusing to believe what we're saying is common sense. We do understand that a lot of what we say does challenge the stereotype of a cat but that's what's so great about this forum - you learn so much and can pass that knowledge on in turn to new members.

And re the article, no I don't, I think it's a pile of bull.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

Whoa, so you do get trolls. I just can't understand how grown people could go on-line on a pet forum to get their kicks. Deary me we live in a strange world.

I was going to ask another question related to what amounts of food you should feed your cats. My cat seems to bug me for extra portions non stop. I give in because when I don't he is all over me until I relent.

He is a healthy weight and is very active so other than the fact I need to fork out more on his food allowance are there any other factors I need to look at?????

Also, the cat from down the road is back. He is sitting on my lap as I write this.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks for taking our advice on board Ron. :thumbup:


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

theronstar said:


> Whoa, so you do get trolls. I just can't understand how grown people could go on-line on a pet forum to get their kicks. Deary me we live in a strange world.


I try to stay well away from these debates, but I think what happens when someone _does _ troll or stir up trouble on a site like this, is they're trying to make themselves feel better about problems in their own lives, and they like to think their cats are perfectly cared for, so sometimes they put others down for their choices in life! Personally I think these forums should be a place where we can share positive information and support each other


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

theronstar said:


> > I was going to ask another question related to what amounts of food you should feed your cats. My cat seems to bug me for extra portions non stop. I give in because when I don't he is all over me until I relent.
> 
> 
> Can I ask how much you are feeding him per day (how many tins or pouches) and what makes they are? A young adult cat who is active and healthy might
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Treaclesmum said:


> > I think what happens when someone _does _ troll or stir up trouble on a site like this, is they're trying to make themselves feel better about problems in their own lives, and they like to think their cats are perfectly cared for, so sometimes they put others down for their choices in life!
> 
> 
> I think you're probably right TM:thumbsup:
> ...


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I suppose we do come across as being a bit smug sometimes.....


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

chillminx said:


> theronstar said:
> 
> 
> > Can I ask how much you are feeding him per day (how many tins or pouches) and what makes they are? A young adult cat who is active and healthy might
> ...


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

theronstar said:


> If there is better stuff out there how do Whiskas and Felix packs get away with saying No.1 brand *chosen by cats?*


Because all the flavourants and rubbish added makes it taste better, I reckon, but doesn't make it good for them, the little blighters. I suppose like McDonalds burgers are the No 1 food chosen by toddlers.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

The quoting facility is on the blink again!


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Oh dear...I see that. I wonder if I somehow messed something up? I did, fixed it now


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

theronstar said:


> > It just feels like he is always asking me for food.
> 
> 
> Well either he is not getting enough to eat, or he has worms. When did you last worm him? Best to use a total wormer like Milbemax from the vet, btw, not something bought OTC from a pet store.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> Oh dear...I see that. I wonder if I somehow messed something up? I did, fixed it now


Well done! :thumbup:


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

The best de-worming product, as far as I am concerned,, is stronghold, which you can buy from your vet. It covers pretty much all types of worms, and is not harmful for the cat.
I have had 16 cats over the past 17 years, and not one of them ever had any type of adverse reaction to stronghold. And it is a spot-on pipette, like the flea pipettes, so really easy to use.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

chillminx said:


> theronstar said:
> 
> 
> > Well either he is not getting enough to eat, or he has worms. When did you last worm him? Best to use a total wormer like Milbemax from the vet, btw, not something bought OTC from a pet store.
> ...


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

theronstar said:


> I used Bob Martins anti flea and anti worm the other day. Though I will go and get those other ones to be on the safe side. I have seen some premium brands on the shelf Gourmet Perle and Sheba. Would you give them any more credit than Whiskas/Felix?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Ronald


Bob Martin is about as effective as water. There have been stories of severe adverse reactions to Bob Martin, I highly recommend you stop using immediately. It doesn't work and it's dangerous.

And no, Gourmet, Perle and Sheba aren't 'premium' brands, they're just expensive junk food. If you want a premium, good quality brand, go for something like Grau, which you can find on Zooplus.


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## Midnight13 (Jun 20, 2012)

Did you manage to deflea the other fella? 

I may get the equivalent of a red arrow but I think sometimes us cat-chat members come across as a bit too... obsessed!

Yes you can buy MUCH better food for a similar price from Zooplus like Smilla/Animonda Carny - more protein and no grains, cats are obligate carnivores - they shouldn't eat grains really BUT my old cat, before I knew about other food outlets, lived on Felix and she lasted 19 years! 

The most important thing you can do is ensure your cats are de wormed and de flead with a *good* brand of product, bang on the day of the run out period it says on the box. Especially if they're not spayed/neutered as the interaction with other cats will only make them more flea infested. 

Even if they're into their solitude they will still get fleas - my lawn has fleas! To my utter disgust!

THe other important thing is getting them spayed/neutered because we already have too many stray and feral cats in the UK. You can't tell when a male has been mating, it's easier to tell with a female (she might have a nipped neck and wet bum!) - it also makes the male cats wreckless, venture further, have more fights, catch more diseases..... basically it's like what would happen to you if you bedded every lady you came across bareback! Yikes!

I would concentrate on the food later.

It's easy to be confused by supermarkets.... Bob Martin is sold everywhere isn't it! I wouldn't use it though - it melted the fur off one of my friend's cats... it's wrong that they can sell it. Gr. Not your fault at all - how were you to know!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> The best de-worming product, as far as I am concerned,, is stronghold, which you can buy from your vet. It covers pretty much all types of worms, and is not harmful for the cat.
> I have had 16 cats over the past 17 years, and not one of them ever had any type of adverse reaction to stronghold. And it is a spot-on pipette, like the flea pipettes, so really easy to use.


Many UK vets have stopped prescribing Stronghold, and instead are prescribing Advantage or Advocate (same thing, but with a round wormer added). I believe they have found Stronghold and Frontline are no longer fully effective in some cases.


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## theronstar (Dec 22, 2011)

I just find it remarkable that all the products I just came at you with that I use are things none of you would use.

Do the RSPCA, Cats protection etc. do any educational campaigns as to products we should try with our pets?

I'm sure the pet owners who don't ask questions just rely on these products.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Not that I know of, but then, I am abroad.

Over here, the frontline is less effective, too, but no problems with the stronghold as yet.

But I will start switching between stronghold and advantage/advocate, just in case....


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

theronstar said:


> I just find it remarkable that all the products I just came at you with that I use are things none of you would use.
> 
> Do the RSPCA, Cats protection etc. do any educational campaigns as to products we should try with our pets?
> 
> I'm sure the pet owners who don't ask questions just rely on these products.


I don't think they do, I think they leave it up to the owner to educate themselves. Not great really, but the likes of the RSPCA are too busy building new offices so the poor things don't have time to educate owners


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree that supermarkets shouldn't be selling the stuff. The best rule of thumb: for any medication/deworming/supplements/defleaing, best to buy at the vet.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> > The best rule of thumb: for any medication/deworming/supplements/defleaing, best to buy at the vet.
> 
> 
> Very sound advice for you Ron


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## Kah (Jul 20, 2012)

I do wonder why there isn't more legislation - or at least information re: catfood etc. if I hadn't used this forum I would also have used Bob Martin's (it's stocked everywhere so must be good) Felix ( would never have occured to me to read label and realise it's only 4 percent salmon in the salmon ) I then made another mistake with applaws - expensive, looks great - didn't see the complementary small print, and to be honest, wouldn't have known what it meant.

To be honest, I'm still a bit confused with food so have just ordered lots of trial packs from Zooplus!


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

theronstar said:


> I just find it remarkable that all the products I just came at you with that I use are things none of you would use.
> 
> Do the RSPCA, Cats protection etc. do any educational campaigns as to products we should try with our pets?
> 
> I'm sure the pet owners who don't ask questions just rely on these products.


I think it comes down to marketing and advertising budgets. Big companies have bigger dollars to throw at those things, so people think they're good--I've even heard the argument that they wouldn't have all that money if people didn't buy their stuff and they wouldn't buy it if it wasn't good. Terrible logic. Big companies are just big and wealthy and it doesn't mean they make a quality product. Or at one point they did, but then profits got the better of them and quality declined. Or in the case of Frontline, the fleas just became resistant, so it doesn't work (I won't even go into the fact that the main ingredient in Frontline is a carcinogen )

But you are so right--most people just buy what's out there and don't ask questions and just assume it's good.


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