# Dear Environmentalists



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

What you put on your plate makes a big difference to the health of our planet. If you go vegan, you can reduce your food-related carbon footprint by an impressive 50%. Show you care and give it a try. Join the Plate Up for the Planet 7 day Vegan Challenge https://www.vegansociety.com/plateup






Take the 7 day vegan challenge

https://www.vegansociety.com/take-action/campaigns/plate-planet

Here is the suggested menu plan - I'm going to be trying a few of those

https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/campaigns/plate-planet/plate-meal-planner


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Great way to spread awareness, Thanks for posting! 

...Live vegan


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nope, I believe in nature which includes the fact that some animals eat meat. Studies have also shown veganism isn't the be all and end all when it comes to health (doesn't mean too many people in the west eat too much meat). Veganism isn't the be all and end all when it comes to environmentalism either. Look at the greenhouses covereing spain to see that. Population is the problem, how does veganism solve that?

Oh I could post youtube videos showing how vegans switch away from it but let's face it it's like talking about religion.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

I don't agree. Eating meat causes an awful lot more harm on the planet, animals, our health, people around us and more..
Humans are so far removed from nature that we cannot point to nature and say "if they can do it why not us??". There are a lot of things that happens in nature that we would never do, so why pick killing other animals? Yes meat eaters CAN be healthy, but you can be HEALTHIER on a vegan diet. You also don't necessarily have to be a healthy vegan, I personally eat healthy 85% of the time but still eat all my favorite foods veganized, which is Ok for some people. 
It's nothing got to with religion either, I personally don't believe in religion and many vegans don't either, but some do, and that's fine too! 
Its got to do with us loving animals enough to not want to kill them, and wanting to save the planet. 
Population is out of our control, but this is something that isn't. We can make a difference by being vegan, and that is something better than doing nothing.

My fav quote; "The Planet's Biggest threat is people thinking that someone else will save it"


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If you were interested, there are articles, videos and information everywhere about how going (healthy) vegan can solve ‘the population’ problem and improve the planet. Growing fruit under plastic in Spain isn’t the answer either, but there would be plenty to eat without doing that, if we stopped, or greatly reduced reliance on animal based produce. The evidence is out there and plain to see.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sorry.... there was only 3 recipes there I would try, the rest I'm sorry :Yuck


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Nope, I believe in nature which includes the fact that some animals eat meat. Studies have also shown veganism isn't the be all and end all when it comes to health (doesn't mean too many people in the west eat too much meat). Veganism isn't the be all and end all when it comes to environmentalism either. Look at the greenhouses covereing spain to see that. Population is the problem, how does veganism solve that?
> 
> Oh I could post youtube videos showing how vegans switch away from it but let's face it it's like talking about religion.


All fine - its a challenge, if you don't fancy it for whatever reason then don't do it


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Sorry.... there was only 3 recipes there I would try, the rest I'm sorry :Yuck


Well 3 is better than none  Why not give those 3 a try and see if you like them?


----------



## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Unless said vegan is consuming soya bean based products, or a variety of nuts, we cannot ignore the damage that agriculture causes just because the end result isn’t meat.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I don't agree. Eating meat causes an awful lot more harm on the planet, animals, our health, people around us and more..


And here we go.. So tell me, why is it that when explorers went around the globe they came across people with few of the "modern" illnesses such as diabetes etc. They had things in common, they were "healthy" and they weren't vegans. Tell me which multigenerational studies have been undertaken to determine the effect of veganism long term and across generations?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> And here we go.. So tell me, why is it that when explorers went around the globe they came across people with few of the "modern" illnesses such as diabetes etc. They had things in common, they were "healthy" and they weren't vegans. Tell me which multigenerational studies have been undertaken to determine the effect of veganism long term and across generations?


Blue Zones were mainly but not entirely vegan eating very small amounts of meat or fish once a week or for celebrations. Vegan and Wholefood plant based are not the same thing of course - most of the health studies have been done on WFPB.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Only one generation has been needed to show how detrimental the modern western diet is. The lady who has lived to be 120 ate no animal produce other than egg. People didn’t have modern illness because they didn’t live long enough, lived mostly on fruit and nuts, didn’t eat processed food and didn’t live with the environmental hazards we’ve created today. They had their own kind of hazards to worry about. People can make their own minds up, there’s enough information out there.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Goblin said:


> And here we go.. So tell me, why is it that when explorers went around the globe they came across people with few of the "modern" illnesses such as diabetes etc. They had things in common, they were "healthy" and they weren't vegans. Tell me which multigenerational studies have been undertaken to determine the effect of veganism long term and across generations?


I'm not here for a debate or fight, I just stated my opinion. A good documentary to watch is "The land of hope and Glory" and "Dominion" 
Of course there is proof somewhere, but Veganism is only new so We can't really give you much. Like I said, you can be healthy on both diets, but the benefits of being vegan are more than that of a meat eater, such as saving the planet, saving animals, fixing global starvation and more. We can be healthy, enjoy food, and not kill animals or destroy the planet and our people. It's a thing worth trying.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Vanessa131 said:


> Unless said vegan is consuming soya bean based products, or a variety of nuts, we cannot ignore the damage that agriculture causes just because the end result isn't meat.


Why soy is bad for the environment?

The climate connection. The expansion of *soybean* plantations into forests is also contributing to climate change. Deforestation is responsible for about 15% of all the global greenhouse gas emissions caused by people. Conversion of forests to *soy*plantations in the Amazon particularly threatens the climate.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Happy Paws said:


> Why soy is bad for the environment?
> 
> The climate connection. The expansion of *soybean* plantations into forests is also contributing to climate change. Deforestation is responsible for about 15% of all the global greenhouse gas emissions caused by people. Conversion of forests to *soy*plantations in the Amazon particularly threatens the climate.


You do not have to eat soy on a vegan diet 

Most of the soy plants grown are to feed livestock, so by erasing that...


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Happy Paws said:


> Why soy is bad for the environment?
> 
> The climate connection. The expansion of *soybean* plantations into forests is also contributing to climate change. Deforestation is responsible for about 15% of all the global greenhouse gas emissions caused by people. Conversion of forests to *soy*plantations in the Amazon particularly threatens the climate.


Those soy plantations in the Amazon is soy meant to feed livestock, it's not for human consumption. 
So reducing or eliminating meat from the diet reduces the need for those feed crop monocultures that are destroying so much of our planet.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I'm not here for a debate or fight, I just stated my opinion. A good documentary to watch is "The land of hope and Glory" and "Dominion"
> Of course there is proof somewhere, but Veganism is only new so We can't really give you much. Like I said, you can be healthy on both diets, but the benefits of being vegan are more than that of a meat eater, such as saving the planet, saving animals, *fixing global starvation* and more. We can be healthy, enjoy food, and not kill animals or destroy the planet and our people. It's a thing worth trying.


I've nothing against veganism and I am, in fact, about to try some vegan recipes, however, I question the validity of the statement highlighted above. One of the reasons why certain parts of Africa have suffered from starvation is due to drought during which time crops cannot grow, so how you equate this with 'fixing global starvation' eludes me. I would be interested in seeing your evidence to support this statement.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> I've nothing against veganism and I am, in fact, about to try some vegan recipes, however, I question the validity of the statement highlighted above. One of the reasons why certain parts of Africa have suffered from starvation is due to drought during which time crops cannot grow, so how you equate this with 'fixing global starvation' eludes me. I would be interested in seeing your evidence to support this statement.


Part of the issue is what I touched on above. Large swaths of land in developing countries being taken over by big corporations and turned in to big monoculture farms that grow food for livestock, not people. Returning this land to the native people and allowing them to farm it as it had been before - in cooperation with mother nature, not fighting against her, would solve a lot of issues as far as people not having enough to eat. It's much more nuanced than that of course, and there are a lot of details I haven't gone in to, but the basic premise of large scale farming being detrimental in multiple ways holds.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Part of the issue is what I touched on above. Large swaths of land in developing countries being taken over by big corporations and turned in to big monoculture farms that grow food for livestock, not people. Returning this land to the native people and allowing them to farm it as it had been before - in cooperation with mother nature, not fighting against her, would solve a lot of issues as far as people not having enough to eat. It's much more nuanced than that of course, and there are a lot of details I haven't gone in to, but the basic premise of large scale farming being detrimental in multiple ways holds.


This still doesn't answer how we overcome the issue of failed crops in Africa caused by drought. It is in Africa that we often hear about mass starvation not in South America.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I hope these environmentalist vegans are getting rid of their cars as well unless they are absolutely vital.


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Vanessa131 said:


> Unless said vegan is consuming soya bean based products, or a variety of nuts, *we cannot ignore the damage that agriculture causes just because the end result isn't meat*.


This ^

As some of you know I'm doing a course on british wild mammals and I have done a lot of research into how humans endanger animals and a massive one is agriculture.
Plus if no one ate meat or dairy, all the animals we keep for those reasons will die out, endangering other animals, insects, birds and plants too.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Why will food animals dying out endanger wildlife? 

Tbh there’s so much information out there, it’s pointless arguing. The big corps will have us all believe all kinds of rubbish so they can keep their profits, despite people and the planet becoming more unhealthy in a major part because of them.

I have a car and don’t eat animal produce. Most westerners do both, so my footprint and impact on the environment is less.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Elles said:


> Why will food animals dying out endanger wildlife?
> 
> Tbh there's so much information out there, it's pointless arguing. The big corps will have us all believe all kinds of rubbish so they can keep their profits, despite people and the planet becoming more unhealthy in a major part because of them.
> 
> I have a car and don't eat animal produce. Most westerners do both, so my footprint and impact on the environment is less.


But a car as a big foot print.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sacremist said:


> This still doesn't answer how we overcome the issue of failed crops in Africa caused by drought. It is in Africa that we often hear about mass starvation not in South America.


This is from"Comfortably Unaware by Dr Richard Oppenlander

During the food crisis in Ethiopia in the 1980's when thousands of people were dying of starvation, Ethiopia was at the same time using a significant amount of its agricultural land to produce cereal grains (linseed, rapeseed and cottonseed) for export to the UK and other European nations to be used to feed European livestock.

Today as then millions of acres of undeveloped third world land are being used exclusively to produce feed for European livestock. 80 % of the world's starving children live in countries where food surpluses are fed to animals then killed and eaten by more well-off individuals in developed countries. It is estimated that one-fourth of all grain produced by the third world countries is now given to livestock. This figure has tripled since the 1950's.

and this from the Vegan Society

While the world's population has doubled since the 1960s, world meat production has quadrupled. In certain areas, livestock production has increased massively; there are now 4 and a half times as many tonnes of pig produced in 2013 compared to 1961, while world chicken production has increased by nearly 13 times.

These harrowing numbers are growing. The Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations predicts that by 2050 world meat production will have almost doubled, as the Western taste for meat, eggs and dairy products continues to grow (along with our waistlines).

This trend will continue to contribute to global warming, widespread pollution, deforestation, land degradation, water scarcity and species extinction. More animals mean more crops are needed to feed them: the planet cannot feed both increasing human and farmed animal populations, especially when there will be between 2-4 billion more human mouths to feed by 2050.



picaresque said:


> I hope these environmentalist vegans are getting rid of their cars as well unless they are absolutely vital.


Why? Those who are prepared to go vegan and reduce their carbon footprint also have to give up their cars but those who can't be arsed can carry on as they were?


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Elles said:


> Why will food animals dying out endanger wildlife?
> 
> Tbh there's so much information out there, it's pointless arguing. The big corps will have us all believe all kinds of rubbish so they can keep their profits, despite people and the planet becoming more unhealthy in a major part because of them.
> 
> I have a car and don't eat animal produce. Most westerners do both, so my footprint and impact on the environment is less.


I'm the other way around - no car but a non-vegan diet. Ultimately I'm an average westerner and not driving (or ever flying) must be cancelled out by something else I do (pretty sure keeping a dog, never mind two has a pretty massive carbon footprint). Totally get that no one can be 100% green and we just should just make changes where we can, it's just that it seems like the discussion on PF at least is always 'meat production is killing the planet' alongside 'I drive my dog five miles to their walk everyday'.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Tbh I eat wfpb more for my health and because the idea of slicing flesh off a dead animal and putting it in my mouth is like some kind of horror story to me. I don’t have dairy any more because of my health and the animal distress and abuse that goes with it. I wouldn’t do it to a dog, so I’m not asking someone to do it to another animal for me. The environment is a by product.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why? Those who are prepared to go vegan and reduce their carbon footprint also have to give up their cars but those who can't be arsed can carry on as they were?


Not that at all (although the idea that non-vegans 'can't be arsed' is a bit unfair). Driving a car has a _massive _impact on the the planet. Arguably far more than eating the odd steak, and if a vegan's main motivation is the environment, which it isn't in many cases, they really should consider going carless.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Probably more than having the odd steak, but that’s not what people do.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't eat meat or dairy, but I do eat eggs and fish.

I have no intention of becoming vegan and it isn't because I "can't be arsed".


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I would encourage all of us to really research this topic, there are so many points I want to touch on but it's such a big topic with so many rabbit holes you can go down, it's really something everyone needs to educate themselves on their own, in their own time, based on their individual interests. For some of us animal cruelty in the factory farming industry is a driving factor, for others the environmental issues are, for others maybe it's personal health, for others it might be religious beliefs. And of course varying combinations of all of the above. But it is incredibly important IMHO to take the initiative to look in to that area that is personally meaningful to you. Once you start looking in to it, it's really hard to "unknow" what you've learned, and you end up looking at the food industry entirely differently. 

Michael Pollan's book "The Omnivore's Dilema" is a fantastically well written, well researched start on the food industry itself. 

It's not about everyone becoming vegan, I don't think that's achievable personally. I wish it were, but I just don't see that happening on a global scale.
Rather, it's about being an informed consumer, and not relying on others to feed you information as it suits them - forum members will have our own biases, governments have biases, companies have biases, environmental groups have biases. It's up to us to intelligently assess all the information and figure out what we individually can do. For some of us that means strict veganism and minimal consumption of animal products in all aspects of our lives, for others it's only about food choices, for others it may just be a meatless meal here and there. But on some level we all have to care, it's our planet, and every little bit we can each do individually matters and makes a difference.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Elles said:


> Probably more than having the odd steak, but that's not what people do.


That is very true. I don't know what is more damaging, modern agriculture or vehicle emissions, probably about the same. Obviously most people who go vegan are mainly motivated by animal welfare but yeah the eco-warriors definitely shouldn't be driving if it can be at all avoided.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Livestock animals, such as cows, sheep, goats and chickens, have many roles in the farm ecosystem. They don’t just provide milk, eggs, wool and meat for humans, their waste can fertilize the soil. Animal manure contains many nutrients that plants can use to grow. 

Yes, they are part of the food chain but they also help to keep ecosystems in balance and help us to save our environment. Some micro organisms such as bacteria that comes from these animals help us clean the environment; others help plants by converting free nitrogen from air and feeding the roots.

I’m not saying there are no negative environmental impacts caused by unsustainable farming practices which include: land conversion and habitat loss, but surely we should be looking at ways to improve current farming practices to reduce damage on the environment rather than telling meat eaters they should not eat meat.

Choosing not to eat meat or eat meat is a lifestyle choice. No matter which side of the fence you sit, no one should tell other people they are wrong for the choice they’ve made.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There will be improvements once clean meat is available and profitable I expect. I wouldn’t even look at what happens to animal waste from the billions of animals raised for profits.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> no one should tell other people they are wrong for the choice they've made.


Meh, plenty of us have no problem telling the BYB breeding their pug-doodle-schnauzador with stenotic nares and dysplastic hips that their "choice" to let dogs do what they do and have 5 litters in as many years is wrong. I don't see why we can't have similar opinions on other choices. 
Not that anyone on this thread is displaying the attitude of "pile on the bacon and to hell with pigs' living conditions" but you know what I mean


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> But a car as a big foot print.


No the livestock industry creates more of a carbon footprint than the whole of the world's transport system (cars, trains, planes etc) put together.



picaresque said:


> Not that at all (although the idea that non-vegans 'can't be arsed' is a bit unfair). Driving a car has a _massive _impact on the the planet. Arguably far more than eating the odd steak, and if a vegan's main motivation is the environment, which it isn't in many cases, they really should consider going carless.


Driving a car has nowhere near the impact that the livestock industry has.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sacremist said:


> Livestock animals, such as cows, sheep, goats and chickens, have many roles in the farm ecosystem. They don't just provide milk, eggs, wool and meat for humans, their waste can fertilize the soil. Animal manure contains many nutrients that plants can use to grow.
> 
> Yes, they are part of the food chain but they also help to keep ecosystems in balance and help us to save our environment. Some micro organisms such as bacteria that comes from these animals help us clean the environment; others help plants by converting free nitrogen from air and feeding the roots.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but it isn't a lifestyle choice when it involves the life of a 3 rd party that has no choice.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> There will be improvements once clean meat is available and profitable I expect. I wouldn't even look at what happens to animal waste from the billions of animals raised for profits.


Judging by my journeys through farmland when we used to have a caravan and the pong that accompanied us on the way, I would say a lot of it was fertilising our grains, fruit and veggies.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm sorry but it isn't a lifestyle choice when it involves the life of a 3 rd party that has no choice.


I'm sorry, I don't understand.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Animallover26 said:


> This ^
> 
> As some of you know I'm doing a course on british wild mammals and I have done a lot of research into how humans endanger animals and a massive one is agriculture.
> Plus if no one ate meat or dairy, all the animals we keep for those reasons will die out, endangering other animals, insects, birds and plants too.


https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-07-17/intensive-numbers-of-intensive-farming


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Judging by my journeys through farmland when we used to have a caravan and the pong that accompanied us on the way, I would say a lot of it was fertilising our grains, fruit and veggies.


You might want to look it up. 

http://www.sustainabletable.org/906/waste-management

Not an everyone go vegan article.


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Eating lettuce could be worse for the planet than bacon - be careful where you buy from
https://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2015/december/diet-and-environment.html

I am vegan (I haven't had meat for years and I don't like dairy) before anyone yells and I don't think it's the solution to saving the planet. Source of ingredients really matters or it's just air miles and lorries like any food. People can eat less meat, shop local and grow their own food which makes a massive difference in gardens.


----------



## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Why soy is bad for the environment?
> 
> The climate connection. The expansion of *soybean* plantations into forests is also contributing to climate change. Deforestation is responsible for about 15% of all the global greenhouse gas emissions caused by people. Conversion of forests to *soy*plantations in the Amazon particularly threatens the climate.


There are huge soya fields in Borneo for human food, areas that should be rainforest.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Meh, plenty of us have no problem telling the BYB breeding their pug-doodle-schnauzador with stenotic nares and dysplastic hips that their "choice" to let dogs do what they do and have 5 litters in as many years is wrong. I don't see why we can't have similar opinions on other choices.
> Not that anyone on this thread is displaying the attitude of "pile on the bacon and to hell with pigs' living conditions" but you know what I mean


And do you think the person who disagrees with your views will listen? In my experience people only listen if they are open to those ideas to begin with, so anyone who tries to tell someone they are wrong will simply be ignored.

How many of those people who come onto this forum actually change their minds when they're told not to breed from a moggie or mutt, not to feed dry food, etc? I'm guessing the percentage is very low, so in reality when we do we are wasting our time.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Driving a car has nowhere near the impact that the livestock industry has.


Assuming you don't actually mean one car against the entire livestock industry because would be silly - really? Nowhere near? Taking into account the factories and the whole production process, the oil, the fuel, the emissions from the billion-odd vehicles on the road and in the air? It is hugely significant.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> And do you think the person who disagrees with your views will listen?


I do, yes 

For some people it's nothing but a seed planted. That seed may not germinate for years, but it's there. 
And if nothing happens, that's okay too, because for everyone completely unaffected by information I and others post, there will be those who are, and it's worth the headache of posting a controversial idea if it influences just that one person. That one person can then go on and influence another, and little by little things change.

And frankly things have already changed greatly. 30 years ago eating vegetarian, let alone vegan was seen as revolutionary, now not only is it much more normalized, but even highly catered-to. The food industry is now producing more and more vegetarian and vegan options because of demand. No, not all are healthy nor much better environmentally, but it points to the change in attitudes, which I take as a positive.

And if nothing else, my posts are a beacon to those other vegans out there who might feel alone and like they're the only ones with those views.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I stopped dairy because of rph ‘s thread. Before it I was pretty oblivious.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I do, yes
> 
> For some people it's nothing but a seed planted. That seed may not germinate for years, but it's there.
> And if nothing happens, that's okay too, because for everyone completely unaffected by information I and others post, there will be those who are, and it's worth the headache of posting a controversial idea if it influences just that one person. That one person can then go on and influence another, and little by little things change.
> ...


I beg to differ, the ones who have made changes were open to it as I said and probably for many different reasons. Closed minds will not listen.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> I've nothing against veganism and I am, in fact, about to try some vegan recipes, however, I question the validity of the statement highlighted above. One of the reasons why certain parts of Africa have suffered from starvation is due to drought during which time crops cannot grow, so how you equate this with 'fixing global starvation' eludes me. I would be interested in seeing your evidence to support this statement.


That's great news, I hope you enjoy them  
The reasoning is that most farmed animals eat at least 3x the amount of plants we do every day and those plants could be used as food for people who need it, such as the people in poor parts of africa as you said.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

*munce on grass* (is popcorn vegan)?

Thing is... not everyone wants to be vegan. My husband only so far and there is free will.

I am 90% there and have probably been vegetarian longer than those who create posts (30 someodd years) but I’ve always found that sharing food works best. Inspiring those with taste.

Vegan diets work to a point but isn’t it better to look overall at life. I would rather someone bought a local cheese than a vegan one that arrived by lorry or vans from abroad using ingredients from abroad. Im a shite at science but if everyone went vegan and didn’t think about provenance that would be a disaster too because it simply moves pollution to another thing we have to solve. As far as I know currently livestock does account for more - I think that was a recent Oxford Uni study but that’s right now, without careful thought it might change and not in a good way.

But I confess not read link but have heard about it and curious over Vegan Soc on provenance and airmiles (my phone wants to write airmoles which do not sound vegan)

Edited because I’m rubbish at paragraphs too.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> I stopped dairy because of rph 's thread. Before it I was pretty oblivious.


You may have been oblivious but you were nonetheless open to what was said. I am open to vegetarian and vegan diets: my hubby is not. Nothing will alter his mind.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

picaresque said:


> I hope these environmentalist vegans are getting rid of their cars as well unless they are absolutely vital.


The Code of Veganism: 
*Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.*


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Wild With Roxi said:


> That's great news, I hope you enjoy them
> The reasoning is that most farmed animals eat at least 3x the amount of plants we do every day and those plants could be used as food for people who need it, such as the people in poor parts of africa as you said.


They eat grass.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> That's great news, I hope you enjoy them
> The reasoning is that most farmed animals eat at least 3x the amount of plants we do every day and those plants could be used as food for people who need it, such as the people in poor parts of africa as you said.


Eh?

Only if the people in poor parts of Africa are happy to eat grass.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think they mean the animals eat grass. Very few of them even know what it is. They eat processed grain, antibiotics and other nasties they shouldn’t be eating.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> I do, yes
> 
> For some people it's nothing but a seed planted. That seed may not germinate for years, but it's there.
> And if nothing happens, that's okay too, because for everyone completely unaffected by information I and others post, there will be those who are, and it's worth the headache of posting a controversial idea if it influences just that one person. That one person can then go on and influence another, and little by little things change.
> ...


This last statement is true indeed, it warms my heart to know how many of us are here on this forum <3


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> Closed minds will not listen.


Which is why I explained in my post who I'm posting for. I'm not trying to forcefully pry minds open. If people are open to ideas, great. If they're not, great. If they needed to hear that whisper of "me too" awesome. 
I don't post to try and change minds, I post so that those who also think like me know they're not alone 



MollySmith said:


> I am 90% there and have probably been vegetarian longer than those who create posts (30 someodd years)


Oh, I didn't realize it was a competition! I've been vegetarian for over 35 years if we're counting. And I believe @Elles has the both of us beat


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> They eat grass.


The feed that is fed to them is made from soya and other plants.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I do. Add another 20+ years or so.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Why soy is bad for the environment?
> 
> The climate connection. The expansion of *soybean* plantations into forests is also contributing to climate change. Deforestation is responsible for about 15% of all the global greenhouse gas emissions caused by people. Conversion of forests to *soy*plantations in the Amazon particularly threatens the climate.


There is also a worry that the demand for some food like avocados means they are priced beyond what the local community can afford to pay. Which is why it's so important than anyone, meat eaters or vegans, must care about source.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Wild With Roxi said:


> The Code of Veganism:
> *Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.*



Environmentalist 

One who advocates for the protection of the biosphere from misuse from human activity through such measures as ecosystem protection, waste reduction and pollution prevention


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

I've just re watched the four minute long "Dominion" Trailer. I recommend everyone here searches it up and takes those 4 minutes of your life to just watch it, vegan or not it doesn't matter! Then we can all be on the same page and have a decent debate lol.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

http://www.dominionmovement.com/


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> Then we can all be on the same page and have a decent debate lol.


What 'page' would that be?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Unfortunately animals farmed on a large scale for meat and dairy are not fed the grass they should be eating, they're fed species inappropriate soy and grains. 
Take cows for example. They're ruminants who should be eating grasses. Yet they're fed soy and corn which their systems are not meant to digest so to avoid the inevitable digestive infections from the species inappropriate diet, antibiotics are added prophylactically to their feed. Depending on the regulations, antibiotics feed as part of the feeding program, as opposed to injected to treat infections, don't have to be reported, and an animal that is fed this way can also be labeled "antibiotic free." 
This is not even counting the cannibalistic practice of feeding beef cows and chickens ground up carcasses from the butchering process which is how mad cow disease was spread. This practice is still happening in the US and other countries. 
Again, very worthwhile to seriously look in to the farming, slaughtering, and processing practices that go in to the food we eat. 

And this is in all sorts of food, not just an obvious steak or glass of milk. Many foods have additives derived from processing meat and cheese, so even though you're not directly eating meat from a factory farmed cow, or large scale dairy, you still might be eating the byproducts of those practices in your loaf of bread, or packet of crackers.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Knowing a bit about what happens in the farming indrustry from animal lovers point of view, not the farmers etc telling us lies.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Just Please watch the Dominion Trailer, the link is there, you don't even have to search it. That's all I ask, then I don't care if your vegan or not, just that you know. 
It's just a speedy glimpse of farming, with music.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Which is why I explained in my post who I'm posting for. I'm not trying to forcefully pry minds open. If people are open to ideas, great. If they're not, great. If they needed to hear that whisper of "me too" awesome.
> I don't post to try and change minds, I post so that those who also think like me know they're not alone
> 
> Oh, I didn't realize it was a competition! I've been vegetarian for over 35 years if we're counting. And I believe @Elles has the both of us beat


Well that sounds better than saying you can plant a seed in a closed mind. Planting a seed in the mind of someone open to listening is fine and why not if that is what they want. Finding companionship in people who share the same ideas is also fine.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Everyone's carbon footprint varies if we are talking environmental. Mine isn't great because our house is old, drafty and can't be easily insulated. But food and travel are good.

Other factors like the cars we all drive, second homes that don't contribute to the local area, how people go on holiday etc may have a bearing so maybe this is useful too, as are the tips

https://footprint.wwf.org.uk/


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Deleted


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Has anybody watched the trailer?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> Well that sounds better than saying you can plant a seed in a closed mind. Planting a seed in the mind of someone open to listening is fine and why not if that is what they want. Finding companionship in people who share the same ideas is also fine.


Oh, well, glad my post meets with your approval now LOL!

Not sure what any of this has to do with the thread, really, we're all just posting/talking/conversing. You know, forum land 'n all


----------



## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I do, yes
> 
> For some people it's nothing but a seed planted. That seed may not germinate for years, but it's there.
> And if nothing happens, that's okay too, because for everyone completely unaffected by information I and others post, there will be those who are, and it's worth the headache of posting a controversial idea if it influences just that one person. That one person can then go on and influence another, and little by little things change.
> ...


This completely. I find it hard to debate sometimes, and write down the facts and what I think concisely, which is why I don't get involved too much on these threads. But I agree with this post  It heartens me to know that there are others who think like I do, and who can write it down (or type it out) in a much better way than me to spread the message. 
I've been veggie most of my life, but only vegan recently and it was the people on this forum who opened my mind to how easy it can be.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Animallover26 said:


> This ^
> 
> As some of you know I'm doing a course on british wild mammals and I have done a lot of research into how humans endanger animals and a massive one is agriculture.
> Plus if no one ate meat or dairy, all the animals we keep for those reasons will die out, endangering other animals, insects, birds and plants too.


But the vast majority of those crops (including 90% of the soya grown) goes to feed livestock. If we ate the crops directly we would need far far less land, so more land for wildlife. Eating meat & dairy is not beneficial to nature - it is driving species to extinction. WWF recently did a study on the impact AL https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nimal-feed-crops-meat-needs-destroying-planet












Vanessa131 said:


> There are huge soya fields in Borneo for human food, areas that should be rainforest.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Vanessa131 said:


> There are huge soya fields in Borneo for human food, areas that should be rainforest.


If people ate soya directly, we would need to produce far less of it. Only a tiny fraction is consumed directly by humans, the vast majority is consumed indirectly by people who eat meat & drink milk.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

60% of all mammals on Earth are livestock, 36% are human and just 4% are wild animals. Farmed poultry makes up 70% of all birds on the planet, with just 30% being wild. And the livestock population is currently growing at twice the rate of the human population. Both the livestock industry & the fossil fuel industry are having a catastrophic impact on our planet.


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I'm too tired to hunt for anything else, but here is a link to, and below that parts from, a website I used when researching how agriculture endangers British wildlife:

http://www.ecifm.rdg.ac.uk/species_decline.htm



> Changes in arable farming practices have been identified as important factors in the decline of wildlife. Significant declines in the brown hare have been recorded (Tapper & Barnes, 1986), associated with changes in the availability of high quality food at certain times of year. Declines in the Pipistrelle Bat are in part likely to have resulted from lower abundance of insect prey in farmland. Information on the decline of arthropods in farmland habitats has been published by the Game Conservancy Trust's Sussex Study (Potts, 1991). In the Sussex study area, between 1972 and 1990, arthropods have declined by 4.2% per annum (excluding springtails and mites), with many groups of beneficial insects, such as aphid predators and game bird food items, declining at faster rates. Bee species are particularly threatened. A range of cornfield weeds, such as corn buttercup and shepherd's-needle, have declined markedly this century, to the extent that some species are now extinct in the UK. These annual flowers are dependent on the arable ecosystem, which is characterised by regular soil cultivation.





> Changes in farming practices that have been identified as causing declines in biodiversity include:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The whole website is fascinating, if interested would be worth a read.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Wild With Roxi said:


> Has anybody watched the trailer?


Thanks but no thanks. I've linked in on here in the past, think I did a whole thread about it but I admit I can't watch very much of it myself without crying and turning violent. It is beyond belief that we can behave like that towards sentient beings and not hang our heads in shame.

By the way have you seen our Plant Based thread? sorry if I've asked you before.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thanks but no thanks. I've linked in on here in the past, think I did a whole thread about it but I admit I can't watch very much of it myself without crying and turning violent. It is beyond belief that we can behave like that towards sentient beings and not hang our heads in shame.
> 
> By the way have you seen our Plant Based thread? sorry if I've asked you before.


I agree. I haven't watched it myself, only the trailer, but that alone is saddening  
I watched the land of hope and glory and it was horrible to watch..i'll check that out! Whats it called?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I agree. I haven't watched it myself, only the trailer, but that alone is saddening
> I watched the land of hope and glory and it was horrible to watch..i'll check that out! Whats it called?


Oh. You haven't watched it, but you want us to watch it?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> Oh. You haven't watched it, but you want us to watch it?


She said she had watched the trailer which is in the link but not the film. As far as I know the film has not been released in this country or on the internet/netflix as yet.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I agree. I haven't watched it myself, only the trailer, but that alone is saddening
> I watched the land of hope and glory and it was horrible to watch..i'll check that out! Whats it called?


https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...getarian-or-just-after-some-new-ideas.450190/


----------



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Both the livestock industry & the fossil fuel industry are having a catastrophic impact on our planet.


To be honest I think you are missing the real point of the environmental impact we are having on this planet! Veganism, fossil fuels or whatever are worthy debates but the real reason, & one that we will never solve until it's too late, is that there are too many of us humans. 7.6 Billion at the last count, not Million but Billion all wanting (certainly in the western world) the latest smartphone, 150 inch TV, a new car every couple of years etc etc!

Due to our science & technology we have circumvented nature, there are no real controls on our population growth.

If the whole world turned Vegan over the next 5 years (it won't) do you really think that the impact on the environment would make a real difference? It would be like putting a sticking plaster on an arterial bleed.

I've got nothing against vegan, vegetarian or any other dietary choice but to think it will have a major influence on our planets decline is naïve at best... just my opinion!

Of course, I could be wrong


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blackadder said:


> To be honest I think you are missing the real point of the environmental impact we are having on this planet! Veganism, fossil fuels or whatever are worthy debates but the real reason, & one that we will never solve until it's too late, is that there are too many of us humans. 7.6 Billion at the last count, not Million but Billion all wanting (certainly in the western world) the latest smartphone, 150 inch TV, a new car every couple of years etc etc!
> 
> Due to our science & technology we have circumvented nature, there are no real controls on our population growth.
> 
> ...


You may be right, but I'd rather do something that has a positive impact, however slight, and work towards finding solutions, than do nothing at all.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Is it fair though to assume that those who aren't vegan are not doing something which will have a positive impact?

Some have solar panels fitted to use less electricity or have cavity wall insulation to use less gas.

Some give up their cars and buy a cycle.

There are many ways of having a positive impact and that is not necessarily living a vegan lifestyle.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

One of the best things we can do for the planet is not reproduce.


----------



## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I'm a bit late to the party here, and I admit to eating anything and everything; I try very hard to find sources that treat animals with respect, both in life and beyond, but that is my choice and I wouldn't castigate anybody for doing differently.

What I really do want to know is.. Suppose we all stopped eating meat? What would happen to cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and so on, if we didn't use them for food?

What would happen to the land they graze, particularly the hill farms which could never be arable?

Does anybody have an answer??


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> I'm a bit late to the party here, and I admit to eating anything and everything; I try very hard to find sources that treat animals with respect, both in life and beyond, but that is my choice and I wouldn't castigate anybody for doing differently.
> 
> What I really do want to know is.. Suppose we all stopped eating meat? What would happen to cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and so on, if we didn't use them for food?
> 
> ...


Yes, as demand for animal products gradually decreases (we all know it will be a slow process) so fewer and fewer will be bred until eventually there will be no more other than those perhaps hobby farmers keep or sanctuaries. The land they graze would be used for food production apart from the very worst. When I have more time I will post some links showing how the vegan society work with farmers to try and help them convert to non livestock farming practices. Of course it is your choice to eat animals but sadly they don't get a say in how they live, what happens to their children or how they die which is a crying shame when there are easily available alternatives.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes, as demand for animal products gradually decreases (we all know it will be a slow process) so fewer and fewer will be bred until eventually there will be no more other than those perhaps hobby farmers keep or sanctuaries. The land they graze would be used for food production apart from the very worst. When I have more time I will post some links showing how the vegan society work with farmers to try and help them convert to non livestock farming practices. Of course it is your choice to eat animals but sadly they don't get a say in how they live, what happens to their children or how they die which is a crying shame when there are easily available alternatives.


Why would you assume that would happen? I don't believe it will.

People will always want meat.

Surely, the way forward is for all to be more aware of how their meat arrives on their plate and to be more active about that.

I truly believe that anyone who believes that, eventually, we will all become vegan is living in the world of fantasy.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Is it fair though to assume that those who aren't vegan are not doing something which will have a positive impact?
> 
> Some have solar panels fitted to use less electricity or have cavity wall insulation to use less gas.
> 
> ...


Oh I didn't mean that it's be vegan or you're not doing anything. 
Just responding to the idea that it's too late and being vegan won't solve anything. Maybe it won't but at least I tried. Others try in other ways, and in multiple ways, and all those efforts are good IMO. All should be encouraged and applauded.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

50 suggestions on how you could help save the planet without going vegan.

1 Wrap gifts in fabric and tie with ribbon; both are reusable and prettier than paper and sticky-tape.

*2* Start a compost heap to reduce the waste you send to landfill sites.

*3* Buy your own hive: without bees the planet would last for only 60 years (and honey is good for your health).

*4* Buy BeeBee wraps instead of clingfilm to save plastic and provide a living to the manufacturers

*5* Slow down. Driving at 50mph uses 25% less fuel than 70mph.

*6* Wash your clothes in bulk so you're not using half loads to save water 
*
7* Turn down your central heating and put on a jumper.

*8* Take a brisk shower, not a leisurely bath, to save water.

*9* Hold a Tupperware party. Airtight food containers can be reused; sandwich bags and plastic wrap cannot.

*10* Choose energy-efficient appliances when you replace old ones.

*11* Buy compact fluorescent light bulbs. They last eight times as long and use a fraction of the energy.

*12* Join a library instead of buying books.

*13* Get to know your neighbours; they are more likely to keep your home safe than energy-guzzling security lamps.

*14* Recycle your car oil at a recycling depot or petrol station; it contains lead, nickel and cadmium.

*15* Get on your bike instead of driving.

*16* Let them carry you off in a biodegradable cardboard coffin, saving trees.

*17* Use low-phosphate washing-up liquid and washing powder. Phosphates stimulate algal growth when discharged into the water supply, lowering oxygen levels and killing plants and fish.

*18* Buy local, or better still, grow your own food, so energy is not wasted on transportation.

*19* Raise your glass to organic beer; conventionally grown hops are sprayed up to a dozen times a year.

*20* Use recycling facilities. If there aren't any, ask your council for them.

*21* Ditch the air-conditioner and buy an aspidistra; plants help cut pollution.

*22* Take the plunge and move in with your partner so you light and heat one home rather than two.

*23* Give a colleague a lift to work; if no one is going your way, join a carshare scheme to find a passenger.

*24* Cook for friends. Large quantities of food use less packaging than the same quantity in individual portions (and take less energy to cook).

*25* Copy politicians by holidaying in Britain (but unlike them, skip the follow-up trip to Tuscany).

*26* Give your garden a good breakfast; coffee grounds and eggshells are ideal for composting.

*27* Refuse plastic carrier bags, or at least reuse them. Cloth bags are better.

*28* Donate your leftover paint to a community project; Britons fail to use 6.2m litres of the paint they buy each year.

*29* Drink tap or filtered water, not bottled.

*30* Invest in a washing line; tumble dryers devour electricity.

*31* Buy chocolates from proper chocolate stores, so they are not individually wrapped.

*32* Turn off TVs and stereos instead of switching them to standby.

*33* Lighten up: paint your walls a pale colour, so you need less artificial light.

*34* Only flush toilets if really needed; follow the Australian maxim: "If it's yellow that's mellow, if it's brown flush it down."

*35* Improve the ambience and dine by candlelight, saving electricity.

*36* Insulate your home. Cavity wall insulation can cut heat loss through the wall by up to 60%.

*37* Buy from companies with eco-friendly policies; boycott those without.

*38* Soak up the sun; even in Britain, solar panels can produce a surprising amount of energy.

*39* Clean the back of your fridge. Dusty coils can increase energy consumption by 30%.

*40* Avoid air travel; it produces three times more carbon dioxide per passenger than rail.

*41* Pretend Christmas has come early; turkey is more likely than chicken to be produced in the UK, while British-grown brussel sprouts require less transport than Kenyan mangetout.

*42* Grow plants to give to friends instead of cut flowers.

*43* Choose a car with a 3-way catalytic converter, to reduce nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbons emissions by 90%.

*44 *Ban blinds. Heavy curtains keep in more heat in winter.

*45* Change materials as well as rooms; MDF and chipboard release formaldehyde, a carcinogen. Buy sustainably produced wood instead.

*46* Cut up the plastic rings from packs of beer; they are invisible in water so wildlife can choke on them or trap themselves.

*47* Bring a mug to the office instead of using polystyrene cups.

*48* Snap up a 36-exposure film instead of 24, reducing waste from packaging and processing.

*49* Cancel that expensive gym membership and walk to work instead.

*50* Buy less. Save time and money as well as the planet.

Bonus point.... buy 365 Ways to Save the Planet (ideally from a local bookshop not Amazon) 'https://www.greenbooks.co.uk/go-mad-go-make-a-difference'

From The Guardian


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Linda Weasel said:


> I'm a bit late to the party here, and I admit to eating anything and everything; I try very hard to find sources that treat animals with respect, both in life and beyond, but that is my choice and I wouldn't castigate anybody for doing differently.
> 
> What I really do want to know is.. Suppose we all stopped eating meat? What would happen to cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and so on, if we didn't use them for food?
> 
> ...


If it's Cambridge, they'll build on it!!


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> 50 suggestions on how you could help save the planet without going vegan.
> 
> 1 Wrap gifts in fabric and tie with ribbon; both are reusable and prettier than paper and sticky-tape.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it's my age, don't know, but I do most of those on the list and always have done.

One of the best things that taught me about saving electricity is staying in our static caravan for extended periods. We do not have mains electrics and rely totally on the sun shining on solar panels and batteries to store that power so we have lights in the evening and gas for cooking and heating. We can run the tv and charge devices, but I have found all sorts of things to enable things to be charged using the sunshine including a radio. 
When back home if we're not in the room then the lights will be off, nothings left on standby and when cooking I always use the small oven unless bulk cooking and have a stove top casserole rather then use the oven or use the slow cooker


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm not so sure buying a bee hive is going to go down too well in built up towns...the neighbours would be straight onto the council
And I guess the Guardian have forgotten that libraries are being closed across the country due to a lack of funding...I would have to travel to Cambridge to get to a library which would mean busses or driving.


----------



## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> 50 suggestions on how you could help save the planet without going vegan.
> 
> 1 Wrap gifts in fabric and tie with ribbon; both are reusable and prettier than paper and sticky-tape.
> 
> ...


Number 48!!! When was that written???

1. I use lick and stick recycled and recyclable wrapping paper.
2. Waste veg goes to guinea pigs
3. No room for a hive, I would love one. I do only buy local honey.
4. I don't use clingfilm or tinfoil
5. I rarely drive on motorways, when I do I drive around 60 as I'm tight!
6. I do four loads a week, bedding, towels and cage liners, darks, lights.
7. Our house rarely gets cold, I also don't own a jumper!
8. I sometimes leave the plug in, my five minute shower used slightly more water than my Wednesday evening bath.
9. I use glass containers, tupperware has a fairly short life.
10. It's hard not to do this anymore
11. Already do
12. It is only open 10-2, I have a kindle instead
13. Don't have a pointless 'security' light
14. I would have to drive a 90 mile round trip to do this!
15. I don't own a bike, helmet etc, I also cannot cycle to work, so it would be a waste of money and metal.
16. Don't care what they do as long as I'm not paying!
17. I only use environmentally friendly products, I also discovered dishes are just as clean without a dishwasher tablet.
18. I buy local (lincolnshire, so easy), no room to grow a decent amount of fruit and veg. I do have some lovely home grown figs at the moment.
19. I don't drink
20. You have to here.
21. A plant isn't going to cool the air in my car.
22. I don't have one!
23. No car share schemes locally
24. The lazy gits can do their own cooking!
25. I rarely go on holiday, I recently made a trip carbon neutral by planting 300 responsibily grown trees while on my trip.
26. Don't really have either of those things, I do give the garden tea leaves.
28. I haven't painted in years, I always buy just enough due to being a bit tight.
29. Only drink tap water
30. I line dry everything
31. I rarely buy chocolate, what I buy is wrapped in recyclable paper
32. Our TV only has a standby function! I think this is quite common now.
33. Surely painting for the sake of it is wasteful?
34. I tried this once, I realised that the smell of wee and a stained toilet bowl were not worth it.
35. I have a cat, that would be a disaster! Most candles are paraffin based, not ethical.
36. Done before I was even born!
37. I do where possible.
38. We have solar panels on our home.
39. I'm too weedy to move the fridge!
40. I rarely fly
41. I only buy British meat, I don't eat a great deal of meat either. I also avoid non-British veg as much as possible.
42. That would be weird, giving them flowers would also be odd
43.Surely a new car is wasteful, how long does is take for all the plastic, metal etc to be 'paid. For?
44. I have blinds, don't need to splash out on curtains.
45. I very rarely buy new furniture.
46. Don't drink beer
47. I have a mug at work (and one for out and about)
48. It isn't 1998
49. 18 miles? Walking won't improve my cardio health, it also won't help with posture unlike resistance training etc. 
50. I'm not massively materialistic.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> Why would you assume that would happen? I don't believe it will.
> 
> People will always want meat.
> 
> ...


Why would I assume what will happen? That demand for animal flesh and their secretions will fall? Because its common sense that the combined force of the environmental impact, the health impact which will eventually sink our NHS and the animal welfare crisis that people will eventually not be able to hide from will reduce demand. If you read my post you will see I said demand will gradually decline, I didn't say we will wake up tomorrow to a vegan world.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> 50 suggestions on how you could help save the planet without going vegan.
> 
> 1 Wrap gifts in fabric and tie with ribbon; both are reusable and prettier than paper and sticky-tape.
> 
> ...


Interesting list but so many won't apply to many people but just out of interest what is the proposed reduction to your carbon footprint from instigating the list?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

This thread makes it sound like eating a whole food plant based, vegan diet is like wearing sackcloth and ashes and whipping yourself twice nightly. 

It’s the best thing I ever did for my tastebuds next to stopping smoking. Admittedly eating bits of dead animals horrifies me, but I thought I really liked cheese and other dairy, like yogurts, until I stopped eating them and started eating real food. Since I paid attention and looked for nutrients instead, my food is amazing. I’m still kicking myself for not doing it years ago. It’s hard to describe the difference, but dairy is kind of thick and cloying. It stops your food tasting so fresh and clean. Since doing this I’ve discovered all kinds of new flavours and sensations and on top of that I feel like a whole new me. Haven’t quite got over it yet. :Hilarious


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> This thread makes it sound like eating a whole food plant based, vegan diet is like wearing sackcloth and ashes and whipping yourself twice nightly.
> 
> It's the best thing I ever did for my tastebuds next to stopping smoking. Admittedly eating bits of dead animals horrifies me, but I thought I really liked cheese and other dairy, like yogurts, until I stopped eating them and started eating real food. Since I paid attention and looked for nutrients instead, my food is amazing. I'm still kicking myself for not doing it years ago. It's hard to describe the difference, but dairy is kind of thick and cloying. It stops your food tasting so fresh and clean. Since doing this I've discovered all kinds of new flavours and sensations and on top of that I feel like a whole new me. Haven't quite got over it yet. :Hilarious


What a brilliant testimony. I couldn't agree more. We were vegetarian for pretty much 20 years in the 80's and 90's and vegan for a short time back in the late 80's but it was seriously hard back then with such little information available on how to do it healthily and so few alternative products available. This time around we did our research first and then dived right in and haven't looked back since. I absolutely love food, I'm probably borderline greedy :Hilarious:Hilarious but I never feel hungry, eat less than I used to and have lost weight/feel so much better. My OH's BP came down from a treatable 150/100 to 115/65 sometimes lower and his cholesterol dropped from 5.4 (208) to 4.2 (162) and is falling still, I'm hoping mine will be under 4 at our next blood test. My OH is 60 and runs around like a man half his age


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.vivobarefoot.com/uk/blo...ce=VIVOBAREFOOT&dm_i=48EU,C5II,2U43LF,1CHU5,1

One step closer to the World's most sustainable shoe.

Primus Bio is made with a new plant-based technology that's petroleum-free, non-toxic and 100% USDA certified.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Perhaps it's my age, don't know, but I do most of those on the list and always have done.
> 
> One of the best things that taught me about saving electricity is staying in our static caravan for extended periods. We do not have mains electrics and rely totally on the sun shining on solar panels and batteries to store that power so we have lights in the evening and gas for cooking and heating. We can run the tv and charge devices, but I have found all sorts of things to enable things to be charged using the sunshine including a radio.
> When back home if we're not in the room then the lights will be off, nothings left on standby and when cooking I always use the small oven unless bulk cooking and have a stove top casserole rather then use the oven or use the slow cooker


Me too, but I thought it was worth a share. There are lots of lists out there.



StormyThai said:


> I'm not so sure buying a bee hive is going to go down too well in built up towns...the neighbours would be straight onto the council
> And I guess the Guardian have forgotten that libraries are being closed across the country due to a lack of funding...I would have to travel to Cambridge to get to a library which would mean busses or driving.


We do have them around here. And yes the whole library thing is terrible and we are loosing ours in Cambridge. I just thought this would be a helpful share.



Vanessa131 said:


> Number 48!!! When was that written???
> 
> 1. I use lick and stick recycled and recyclable wrapping paper.
> 2. Waste veg goes to guinea pigs
> ...


2002.... eek! I don't think I was using film then either!



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Interesting list but so many won't apply to many people but just out of interest what is the proposed reduction to your carbon footprint from instigating the list?


I have no idea, I posted the WWF carbon footprint yesterday so perhaps that's somewhere that people can check or indeed contact the Guardian. I didn't write it.

****
Trying to be constructive but goodness me this is a very heated thread!

Not everyone wants to be vegan as @Rafa and others have said which is completely free will and I respect them for their choices. The point of these tips is that there are other things that people can do that will also go towards to helping and it does feel like the vegans and veggies are somewhat offering this as the final solution to saving the planet and yes, it goes a great step (_providing vegans check food miles_) towards it but there is heaps of other things that contribute for those who don't want to be vegan. Being dictatorial or smug isn't a way of helping anyone decide as I found as a very earnest teen trying to get all my friends to be veggie! Of course it would be lovely if everyone did go vegan or veggie but the reality is that not everyone wants to.

My husband doesn't but he'll eat veggie food and vegan but will order meat when he goes out. That's his choice and it's fine by me. We do other things - I'm the PF'er who doesn't use supermarkets - and do the very best we can do be as green as we can without lashing ourselves with birches.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> Me too, but I thought it was worth a share. There are lots of lists out there.
> 
> We do have them around here. And yes the whole library thing is terrible and we are loosing ours in Cambridge. I just thought this would be a helpful share.
> 
> ...


:Joyful I thought it had been quite polite. I wasn't asking to be rude - just interested.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I imagine everyone's carbon footprint varies depending on lifestyle so it's probably best to measure ourselves. A vegan who flies around around the world could easily have a higher footprint than a meat eater who never drives or goes abroad I suppose? I live a hermit life and vegetarian so I could be lower than both maybe! Sounds like a good competition!! 

I think the WWF one accounts for airmiles and diet but I would think that every calorie and source of food would have to be analysed. The Carnie Mellon University did this a few years ago but I can't recall what they called the paper now or find it.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post...rrate-vegan-film-eating-our-way-to-extinction

Worth a read.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> https://www.plantbasednews.org/post...rrate-vegan-film-eating-our-way-to-extinction
> 
> Worth a read.


Thank you for posting - I'd missed that somehow on plant based news - the trailer looks extremely powerful so looking forward to that coming out.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Sacremist said:


> How many of those people who come onto this forum actually change their minds when they're told not to breed from a moggie or mutt, not to feed dry food, etc?


Very few; the reason being, so many people are intolerant of the views of others that the threads end up getting closed as they are getting nowhere.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

A few other things to take into consideration from Comfortably Unaware by Dr Richard Oppenlander

1. Methane is 23 times as powerful as carbon dioxide, and nitrous oxide is 310 times as powerful as carbon dioxide for their global warming potential.
2. 40 % of methane and 65% of nitrous oxide produced by all human activities are from livestock.
3. Rainforests are the lungs of our planet producing over 20% of the earth's oxygen and taking millions of tons of carbon dioxide out of our atmosphere. 70% of our rainforests have been slashed and burned in order to raise livestock.
4. 55% of our fresh water is being given to livestock.
5. Over 70% of grain in the US is fed to livestock.
6. It takes 10 - 20 gallons of water to produce one pound of vegetables, fruit, soybeans or grain. It takes over 5,000 gallons of water to produce one pound of meat.
7. During every one second of time, just in the US alone, 89,000 pounds of excrement is produced by the chickens, turkeys, pigs, sheep, goats and cows raised and killed for us to eat.
8. One acre of land, if used for vegetables, grain and/or legumes produces 10 - 15 times more protein than if devoted to meat production.

Food for thought


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Some good news from Animal Aid today

We are very pleased to tell you that plans for a cruel new factory farm near York have been rejected.

Councillors voted yesterday evening to refuse permission for a farm that could have imprisoned up to 144,000 birds at any one time. This is a huge victory for these gentle creatures, who would have been subjected to a short life of utter misery.

Thousands of compassionate people like you objected to the plans, and we are so grateful to you for speaking out and showing the strength of public opposition.

We understand that the decision is likely to be appealed, but we will continue doing everything we can to stop this farm from going ahead.

Thank you again for all your work for animals.

With very best wishes,






Isobel Hutchinson
Director


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Blackadder said:


> To be honest I think you are missing the real point of the environmental impact we are having on this planet! Veganism, fossil fuels or whatever are worthy debates but the real reason, & one that we will never solve until it's too late, is that there are too many of us humans. 7.6 Billion at the last count, not Million but Billion all wanting (certainly in the western world) the latest smartphone, 150 inch TV, a new car every couple of years etc etc!
> 
> Due to our science & technology we have circumvented nature, there are no real controls on our population growth.
> 
> ...


I'm not missing the point at all. And in a round about way you kind of make _my_ point Consumption. Over consumption by a s_mall minority_ of the global population are the main drivers of global warming, the depletion of natural resources & the degradation of ecosystems. Most of the worlds population are so poor they can be barely classed as consumers. We cant do much about the human population (though I believe it is set to plateau?) but we can do something about our habits & our political choices. Our economic model has failed, we must adopt a sustainable system if we want to save our planet.

Speaking in 2011 Ban Ki Moon UN Secretary General (2007 - 2016). This has stood out in my mind since I first heard it.

Ban Ki Moon, called for "_*revolutionary action*_" to achieve sustainable development, warning that the past century's heedless consumption of resources is _*"a global suicide pact" *_with time running out to ensure an economic model for survival.
_*
"Let me highlight the one resource that is scarcest of all: Time,*_" he told the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, in a session devoted to redefining sustainable development. *"We are running out of time. Time to tackle climate change. Time to ensure sustainable, climate-resilient green growth. Time to generate a clean energy revolution."*

Calling sustainable development the growth agenda for the 21st century, Mr. Ban recited a litany of development errors based on a false belief in the infinite abundance of natural resources that fuelled the economy in the last century.

*"We mined our way to growth,"* he said. _*"We burned our way to prosperity. We believed in consumption without consequences. Those days are gone. In the 21st century, supplies are running short and the global thermostat is running high".*_

The livestock population is almost double that of the human population. So if the whole world turned vegan over the next five years, I know it would make a difference. Firstly, we could feed many more people on a fraction of the land - meaning there would be far more places set aside for wildlife. Secondly, it would drastically reduce our global greenhouse emissions.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Some good news from Animal Aid today
> 
> We are very pleased to tell you that plans for a cruel new factory farm near York have been rejected.
> 
> ...


Fantastic news! I love Animal Aid, its one of our charities.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Good to see that more and more people are talking about this subject and keeping awareness raised! Just a shame that some people will always stick their heads in the sand and ignore the overwhelming landslide of evidence proving that animal agriculture is so bad for the planet.

I try and keep my global footprint as small as I can (for someone living in a developed country...and despite the fact I am really craving a take out pizza at the mo!LOL). Went vegan, dont own a car or travel by plane, do my bit for saving water and recycling. I think we all need to ask ourselves if we are really doing enough at moment to help out and could we do more??


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I have a car but only use it once a week. We have a compost bin in the garden. I only put clothes in the washing machine when I have enough to fill it. I hand any plastic bags back to Ocado for recycling. Haven’t been on an aeroplane in 8 years. I’m sure there is more we can do and if we can we will do it.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Good to see that more and more people are talking about this subject and keeping awareness raised! Just a shame that some people will always stick their heads in the sand and ignore the overwhelming landslide of evidence proving that animal agriculture is so bad for the planet.
> 
> I try and keep my global footprint as small as I can (for someone living in a developed country...and despite the fact I am really craving a take out pizza at the mo!LOL). Went vegan, dont own a car or travel by plane, do my bit for saving water and recycling. I think we all need to ask ourselves if we are really doing enough at moment to help out and could we do more??


Zizzi do vegan pizza (very tasty!) and a takeaway service in our town


----------



## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Lurcherlad said:


> Zizzi do vegan pizza (very tasty!) and a takeaway service in our town


Zizzis is soooo good! And their chocolate torte dessert is amazing! All vegan


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If we all just did one thing and that was to stop consuming animal produce, or at least a lot less of it, we could enjoy our mod cons without killing our environment. We could keep our cars, which are being designed to be more efficient over time and keep our holidays abroad. Just do the easy stuff, like putting the recycling in the recycling. Manufacturers could change their packaging and my light bulb is nothing on some flashy advertising billboard which could be changed. We have no need to stop enjoying our lives, just enjoy them in a slightly different (and healthier) way imo.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I decided to try a vegan meal today when I went out to lunch with a friend. It was Mediterranean vegetables with chick peas, almonds and apricots roasted in a harissa marinade and wrapped in a wholemeal tortilla with a selection of salad and vegetables. The salad and vegetables consisted of a tablespoon each of pasta salad, curried new potato salad, vegetable couscous, tenderstem broccoli, mange tout, red cabbage and beetroot as well as the usual lettuce, tomato, cucumber and onion. I was stuffed!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Linda Weasel said:


> What would happen to the land they graze, particularly the hill farms which could never be arable?
> 
> *Does anybody have an answer?*?


I do!

Our uplands are 'sheep-wrecked' & degraded by driven grouse shoots. We could rewild them 

We return our intensively managed uplands back to nature - like this >>>>.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


>


Trees. Wonderful organisms. We personally own hundreds and hundreds of them.  Although I wouldn't consider myself a tree hugger, I feel I know each one individually and, ashamed as I am to admit this, I do have my favourites.:Sorry

Many folks don't seem to realise that trees clean the air of carbon dioxide and store it, but release that carbon back into the atmosphere when they are felled and die.
Deforestation is one of the main reasons why this planet is choking to death.
The increase of greenhouse gas emissions, on a global scale, are the direct result of deforestation linked directly to the logging industry and woodland conversion to fields, roads, and residential areas.
It would take approximately 1000 trees per person to clean up their carbon emissions.

Go out and plant a tree tomorrow.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Love trees, I have several in my garden does make growing anything else a little difficult mind! Makes me sad that my authority seems hell bent on cutting down every tree in town, there may well be good reasons for it but it just seems sad that trees are almost seen with horror now. The amount of people I have know in the last few years upon buying a new house with lovely established trees the first job on their list is get rid of the trees in the garden!


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

And grow more flowers for the bees. If we don’t take care of bees in a few years we really will lose them and that will have a huge affect on our environment.

We have had a protection order placed on the ash trees in our garden. It means that we or anyone else can’t cut them down without having permission from our council. I recommend doing it.

We also have trees planted for every child I’ve lost planted in an arboretum.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

I'm not so sure *buying a bee-hive *will go down too well, in built-up towns... the neighbours would be straight onto the council.

And I guess the Guardian forgot that libraries are being closed across the country, due to lack of funding - I would have to travel to Cambridge to get to a library, which would mean busses or driving.
_______________________
.

If it's the risk of stings that is worrying, there are stingless bees which produce honey & live in colonies AKA hives, just like the stinging varieties. 

Also, providing a place for *solitary* native bees to nest is a great way to help our native pollinators. 
In the USA, *orchard bees *are both solitary & stingless; their nesting needs are simple, a bundle of small-diameter bamboo, all cut to about the length of a brand-new pencil, & wired or tied together, then hung horizontally. // They enter the tubes to lay their eggs in the protected space, safe from predators & protected from drowning in the rain.

Many different makers sell handcrafted nests for native bees, check out Etsy or eBay - many of them, even when empty, are beautiful year-round, & make gorgeous functional art for the garden. 

- terry

.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> And grow more flowers for the bees. If we don't take care of bees in a few years we really will lose them and that will have a huge affect on our environment.
> We have had a protection order placed on the ash trees in our garden. It means that we or anyone else can't cut them down without having permission from our council. I recommend doing it.
> We also have trees planted for every child I've lost planted in an arboretum.


We have quite a vast area of wild lupines , willowherb and assortment of other wild flowers that are never touched during the summer months because they are a haven for bees. Although some might say the area could be better managed, they're oblivious to the fact it couldn't be better managed as it stands naturally.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Zaros said:


> We have quite a vast area of wild lupines , willowherb and assortment of other wild flowers that are never touched during the summer months because they are a haven for bees. Although some might say the area could be better managed, they're oblivious to the fact it couldn't be better managed as it stands naturally.


I'm trying to get permission to get the huge green space outside my house wild planted before I resort to gueriella (spelling?!) it. I've seed bombed places and was part of a group who planted a meadow in an old Victorian cemetery.

I loved your post @Zaros it reminded me of the other things I've done to help with the planet right here.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> Love trees, I have several in my garden does make growing anything else a little difficult mind! Makes me sad that my authority seems hell bent on cutting down every tree in town, there may well be good reasons for it but it just seems sad that trees are almost seen with horror now. The amount of people I have know in the last few years upon buying a new house with lovely established trees the first job on their list is get rid of the trees in the garden!


I never understood why people destroy the unique character of a property's immediate surroundings by felling established trees either.
Our house has some pretty tall pines just a few feet away and despite the lean on the few I keep a close eye on, none will be felled all the while we're living here.

However, ever year I do practice thinning but don't necessarily cut down thise which aren't thriving very well due to the proxmity of others. I transplant them. It's back breaking work but the benefits add more even character to the place.
Unfortunately, due to the freak temperatures of this summer, I've lost many of my transplants from last Autumn.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Trees. Wonderful organisms. We personally own hundreds and hundreds of them.  Although I wouldn't consider myself a tree hugger, I feel I know each one individually and, ashamed as I am to admit this, I do have my favourites.:Sorry
> 
> Many folks don't seem to realise that trees clean the air of carbon dioxide and store it, but release that carbon back into the atmosphere when they are felled and die.
> Deforestation is one of the main reasons why this planet choking to death.
> ...


 Well I definitely am a tree hugger

I've planted 2 fruit trees this year plus a little willow tree this year. They are the lungs of the earth but people just chop them down without a second thought. Entire tracts forests bulldozed. It is criminal.



3dogs2cats said:


> Love trees, I have several in my garden does make growing anything else a little difficult mind! Makes me sad that my authority seems hell bent on cutting down every tree in town, there may well be good reasons for it but it just seems sad that trees are almost seen with horror now. The amount of people I have know in the last few years upon buying a new house with lovely established trees the first job on their list is get rid of the trees in the garden!


Makes me so angry. In Sheffield the council are waging a war on the towns trees (& the people trying to protect them). A private company have a contract to maintain the pavements & the cheapest way to do that is to chop down thousands of the citys trees! It is sheer vandalism. I can hardly believe it. I honestly could cry when I see the stumps where the once stood beautiful trees.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Well I definitely am a tree hugger
> 
> I've planted 2 fruit trees this year plus a little willow tree this year. They are the lungs of the earth but people just chop them down without a second thought. Entire tracts forests bulldozed. It is criminal.
> 
> Makes me so angry. In Sheffield the council are waging a war on the towns trees (& the people trying to protect them). A private company have a contract to maintain the pavements & the cheapest way to do that is to chop down thousands of the citys trees! It is sheer vandalism. I can hardly believe it. I honestly could cry when I see the stumps where the once stood beautiful trees.


Sheffield is awful, similar here in Cambridge to apparently make space for bus lanes. I live here and would be somewhat affected by a congestion zone but I'd support it 100% if it saved the trees. Don't get me started on the green belt and the plans to build on it. I despair.

But trees are wonderful. We have a city garden but have 6 trees including two apple trees which have struggled this summer with the drought. Our eater especially.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Well I definitely am a tree hugger
> 
> I've planted 2 fruit trees this year plus a little willow tree this year. *They are the lungs of the earth but people just chop them down without a second thought. Entire tracts forests bulldozed. *It is criminal.


And then there's the fires...


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I'm trying to get permission to get the huge green space outside my house wild planted before I resort to gueriella (spelling?!) it. I've seed bombed places and was part of a group who planted a meadow in an old Victorian cemetery.
> 
> I loved your post @Zaros it reminded me of the other things I've done to help with the planet right here.


Our local council have planted loads of wild flowers on roadside grass verges and roundabouts. I planted lots of flowers this spring that were supposed to attract bees but haven't seen a single bee on them - they've been here in abundance but kept to my lavender and the trailing lobelia in my pots.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I love trees but I am wary of planting them in my garden.

I'm lucky enough to have a very big garden, but a tree at the very top blew down in gale force winds a while ago, taking out my fence and my neighbour's fence.

It cost me £2,000 to repair all the damage and have the fallen tree taken away.

I have one tree these days and I have it topped every second year.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

3dogs2cats said:


> Love trees, I have several in my garden does make growing anything else a little difficult mind! Makes me sad that my authority seems hell bent on cutting down every tree in town, there may well be good reasons for it but it just seems sad that trees are almost seen with horror now. The amount of people I have know in the last few years upon buying a new house with lovely established trees the first job on their list is get rid of the trees in the garden!


We have 7 trees in our garden. I love them. One of our neighbours has lots of trees too.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Our local council have planted loads of wild flowers on roadside grass verges and roundabouts. I planted lots of flowers this spring that were supposed to attract bees but haven't seen a single bee on them - they've been here in abundance but kept to my lavender and the trailing lobelia in my pots.


Oh dear. I recall that Homebase (and I would think they aren't alone) treated plants with a pesticide that bees didn't like but I'm sure you would have heard of that as it was fairly well publicised by Friends of the Earth and the press. We seem to have attracted lots in our garden but I've grown most from seed and the cemetery is doing very well according to the conservation officers but I think we've had better years, I do worry about bees a lot.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Our local council have planted loads of wild flowers on roadside grass verges and roundabouts. I planted lots of flowers this spring that were supposed to attract bees but haven't seen a single bee on them - they've been here in abundance but kept to my lavender and the trailing lobelia in my pots.


We have two buddleias, which attract a lot of bees.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> Oh dear. I recall that Homebase (and I would think they aren't alone) treated plants with a pesticide that bees didn't like but I'm sure you would have heard of that as it was fairly well publicised by Friends of the Earth and the press. We seem to have attracted lots in our garden but I've grown most from seed and the cemetery is doing very well according to the conservation officers but I think we've had better years, I do worry about bees a lot.


No they weren't from a large chain, from a small garden centre, I'm just not convinced the bees really like the plants they call bee friendly  Nothing has come up from the bee bombs I scattered yet either but they did say they might not until the next year.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sacremist said:


> I decided to try a vegan meal today when I went out to lunch with a friend. It was Mediterranean vegetables with chick peas, almonds and apricots roasted in a harissa marinade and wrapped in a wholemeal tortilla with a selection of salad and vegetables. The salad and vegetables consisted of a tablespoon each of pasta salad, curried new potato salad, vegetable couscous, tenderstem broccoli, mange tout, red cabbage and beetroot as well as the usual lettuce, tomato, cucumber and onion. I was stuffed!


Did you enjoy it?


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Oh. You haven't watched it, but you want us to watch it?


Well Yes, and I wanted you to watch the trailer.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Did you enjoy it?


Yes, it was very tasty. Nicely spiced.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No they weren't from a large chain, from a small garden centre, I'm just not convinced the bees really like the plants they call bee friendly  Nothing has come up from the bee bombs I scattered yet either but they did say they might not until the next year.


I wonder if it's about native plants? The buzzing cemetery remains uncut so it's native plants growing? I'm vaguely thinking about how honey from local hives it helps hay fever allegedly but that might be old wives tales. There is a publisher/bee keeper at work who does well from it!, I shall ask him!


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Sacremist said:


> Yes, it was very tasty. Nicely spiced.


That's great


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I wonder if it's about native plants? The buzzing cemetery remains uncut so it's native plants growing? I'm vaguely thinking about how honey from local hives it helps hay fever allegedly but that might be old wives tales. There is a publisher/bee keeper at work who does well from it!, I shall ask him!


Not sure - the ones I planted that the bees have ignored were Bidens Beedance and Argyranthemum Honeybees. Waste of money - will still with Lavender and lots of Lobelia next year.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Wild With Roxi said:


> Well Yes, and I wanted you to watch the trailer.


Not everyone wants to watch stuff like that, and shouldn't have to. 
Sharing information is just that - sharing  People are free to take or leave what they wish


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Not everyone wants to watch stuff like that, and shouldn't have to.
> Sharing information is just that - sharing  People are free to take or leave what they wish


Yeah I understand.
I just meant I didn't want people to watch the documentary, while they certainly can if they wish, i was talking about the trailer.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> Sheffield is awful, similar here in Cambridge to apparently make space for bus lanes. I live here and would be somewhat affected by a congestion zone but I'd support it 100% if it saved the trees. Don't get me started on the green belt and the plans to build on it. I despair.
> 
> But trees are wonderful. We have a city garden but have 6 trees including two apple trees which have struggled this summer with the drought. Our eater especially.


The councilors are behaving appallingly. Its a labour run council at that - they've even tried to get one of their own colleagues (Greens Councilor, Alison Teal), prosecuted for defending the trees. Anyone unaware of the scandal should read this - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...r-anti-tree-felling-campaign?CMP=share_btn_tw

It makes me sad to know theres a similar situation going on in Cambridge. Weakening of protections for green belt & the massive cuts to councils by central government are forcing councils to sell off land for development. And its set to get much worse. If we're to save our trees & green spaces we have a mighty battle on.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...3e4b0961f0938a5ef?ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ories-build-greenbelt-not-natural-beauty.html

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...hristchurch-east-dorset-and-poole-green-belt/

I have an apple tree in my garden. Thats an eater & though there are loads of apples on it, most of them are smaller than usual, nearly all of them seem to have grub holes :Wtf, and they're not staying on the tree as long as they normally do. I also have a little ornamental crab apple which is usually snided in apples. There are 3 this year! 


Zaros said:


> And then there's the fires...


Heartbreaking. Another example of why we must urgently ditch our current economic model which is responsible this crime against nature.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Know your enemy - its Neoliberalism.

This is why we're on a path to self-destruction.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> Know your enemy - its Neoliberalism.
> 
> This is why we're on a path to self-destruction.


I'm sorry but i just can't stand this guy. There's something about him that makes me want to grind my teeth. Not even really sure what it is.

Sure he has a point about billionaires and huge corporations. But he seems to think trade unions are the answer to some things? They're just as self serving as the political parties.

Like i say, i couldn't watch much. I'm off to the dentist to get me teeth fixed.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not sure - the ones I planted that the bees have ignored were Bidens Beedance and Argyranthemum Honeybees. Waste of money - will still with Lavender and lots of Lobelia next year.


I grew Echinops from seed and the bees love them.

I also have Cardoons which are 8 feet high with giant purple thistle like flowers on, which they go mad for.

The sedum are about to flower which are also bee and butterfly magnets.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Deleted


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> The councilors are behaving appallingly. Its a labour run council at that - they've even tried to get one of their own colleagues (Greens Councilor, Alison Teal), prosecuted for defending the trees. Anyone unaware of the scandal should read this - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...r-anti-tree-felling-campaign?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> It makes me sad to know theres a similar situation going on in Cambridge. Weakening of protections for green belt & the massive cuts to councils by central government are forcing councils to sell off land for development. And its set to get much worse. If we're to save our trees & green spaces we have a mighty battle on.
> 
> ...


Here it's economic growth and lack of housing for those who work and study here. And a transport infrastructure that cannot sustain the people plus the 2million tourists.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Zaros said:


> *I never understood why people destroy the unique character of a property's immediate surroundings by felling established trees either.*
> Our house has some pretty tall pines just a few feet away and despite the lean on the few I keep a close eye on, none will be felled all the while we're living here.
> 
> However, ever year I do practice thinning but don't necessarily cut down thise which aren't thriving very well due to the proxmity of others. I transplant them. It's back breaking work but the benefits add more even character to the place.
> Unfortunately, due to the freak temperatures of this summer, I've lost many of my transplants from last Autumn.


I did, because they were Leylandii that had been left to go rampant.

We planted a eucalyptus (bad mistake, that's coming out at some point & being replaced with a small stand of silver birch), variegated sweet chestnut (looking lovely 17 years on) & an ash that was a sapling OH rescued from a building site, alongside a philadelphus, ribes, pyracanthus & ceanothus.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I did, because they were Leylandii that had been left to go rampant.
> 
> We planted a eucalyptus (bad mistake, that's coming out at some point & being replaced with a small stand of silver birch), variegated sweet chestnut (looking lovely 17 years on) & an ash that was a sapling OH rescued from a building site, alongside a philadelphus, ribes, pyracanthus & ceanothus.


Leylandi are b*ggers when they are too big, I removed a couple form my garden as they were causing damage to a fence & they were scrawny & ugly looking. I left one small one as a pheasant likes to sit at the top & screech to the dogs!

I know some people have found it difficult to get insurance if they have large trees within a certain distance of heir house. Mine were literally just outside the boundary which was lucky as I find it difficult enough to get home insurance due to living near a river.

Regarding trying to make changes I do try & do look at areas I can make improvements in, some I can but some I can't.
I drive to work each day & have looked in to public transport even a couple of days a week but it is so expensive & would take me twice as long in the car.

The issues with delays & cancellations to trains on my route (nearly every day it seems) also makes it something I just can't consider. Today I am supposed to be meeting my mum, sister & niece in London but my train has now been cancelled last minute with no explanations ... it is frustrating for me today but I can't imagine having to cope with this every day if I was commuting. Admittedly I don't use public transport a lot but every time I do there are delays &/or cancellations. I can't believe that this is acceptable & service providers are allowed to get away with this yet continue to rise ticket prices.

How can this be seen to entice us car drivers to use public transport when it is so shoddy?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Leylandi are b*ggers when they are too big, I removed a couple form my garden as they were causing damage to a fence & they were scrawny & ugly looking. I left one small one as a pheasant likes to sit at the top & screech to the dogs!
> 
> I know some people have found it difficult to get insurance if they have large trees within a certain distance of heir house. Mine were literally just outside the boundary which was lucky as I find it difficult enough to get home insurance due to living near a river.
> 
> ...


That's disgraceful!

You're right about public transport though, in non term time when the college buses don't run I have to use the regular buses, 1 bus change & 2 hrs travel time (including walking to/from my house to the bus stop which isn't nearby) each way, but now that the Broadland Northway has been finished it's 20 minutes each way by car.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> That's disgraceful!
> 
> You're right about public transport though, in non term time when the college buses don't run I have to use the regular buses, 1 bus change & 2 hrs travel time (including walking to/from my house to the bus stop which isn't nearby) each way, but now that the Broadland Northway has been finished it's 20 minutes each way by car.


Bloody hell, that's dreadful. I think it must be awful for people trying to get to & from work, commuting is stressful enough without the added worry of delayed/cancelled trains.

Where my mum lives they are now cancelling bus services (which have always been pretty good in her town) which I suppose is due to cut backs. It seems a shame as am sure a lot of people relied on it especially those without cars, same with the local village near me. Lots of cut backs on buses have meant people unable to get to the nearest town, although what has been really nice is that someone has set up a FB group for trying to arrange lift shares which is great & such a lovely gesture.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Bloody hell, that's dreadful. I think it must be awful for people trying to get to & from work, commuting is stressful enough without the added worry of delayed/cancelled trains.
> 
> Where my mum lives they are now cancelling bus services (which have always been pretty good in her town) which I suppose is due to cut backs. It seems a shame as am sure a lot of people relied on it especially those without cars, same with the local village near me. Lots of cut backs on buses have meant people unable to get to the nearest town, although what has been really nice is that someone has set up a FB group for trying to arrange lift shares which is great & such a lovely gesture.


I'm considering offering myself up for a lift share at work once I have a car again.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I'm considering offering myself up for a lift share at work once I have a car again.


 Hmmmm ... suppose it depends on who you share with tho!!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> I'm trying to get permission to get the huge green space outside my house wild planted before I resort to gueriella (spelling?!) it. I've seed bombed places and was part of a group who planted a meadow in an old Victorian cemetery.
> .


That's sounds lovely. I hope you get permission. good luck.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Hmmmm ... suppose it depends on who you share with tho!!


They'll have to put up with my music.

Probably won't get too many takers now I come to think of it:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Hmmmm ... suppose it depends on who you share with tho!!


peter kay ? 



simplysardonic said:


> They'll have to put up with my music.
> 
> Probably won't get too many takers now I come to think of it:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


:Hilarious What music do you play ?


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> They'll have to put up with my music.
> 
> Probably won't get too many takers now I come to think of it:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


I used to car share with a bloke from my office & it was great as he was a cynic old bastard like me so it worked well but he moved & the only people on my route I wouldn't want to share with & they probably wouldn't want to get in my filthy car anyway.

Am on the train atm & it is rammed due to all the cancellations. No way could I do this every day


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I used to car share with a bloke from my office & it was great as he was a cynic old bastard like me so it worked well but he moved & the only people on my route I wouldn't want to share with & they probably wouldn't want to get in my filthy car anyway.
> 
> Am on the train atm & it is rammed due to all the cancellations. No way could I do this every day


I hate rammed trains, I go & press myself against the doors to get away from people!


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

The number of buses to my village have been reduced to the point people who rely on the buses are being forced to move. 
Someone I knoe recently had an appointment at a hospital, by car it would of taken about 30 minutes, he had to go by bus and it took 2 hours 30 minutes!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> *I did, because they were Leylandii that had been left to go rampant.*
> 
> We planted a eucalyptus (bad mistake, that's coming out at some point & being replaced with a small stand of silver birch), variegated sweet chestnut (looking lovely 17 years on) & an ash that was a sapling OH rescued from a building site, alongside a philadelphus, ribes, pyracanthus & ceanothus.


If Leylandii have been planted close together to provide a privacy screen/hedge from nosy neighbours, and not pruned periodically, I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting them down. You can't care for them properly after they've been neglected and, quite often, just beyond that lush green exterior the inside is albeit derelict. Starved of sufficient light not much flourishes. They do, however, provide very good hiding places/shelter for all sorts of creatures.

Their roots have often been the cause of subsidence because they extract so much water from the soil. The consequence of removing the trees is that, once they're gone the area begins to swell again and this could cause problems for buildings too.
If you're going to have them, Not you but a general you, it's best that they be planted away from any property.

Planted separately and maintained at regular intervals they can look nice. But you have to keep on top of them.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Zaros said:


> If Leylandii have been planted close together to provide a privacy screen/hedge from nosy neighbours, and not pruned periodically, I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting them down. You can't care for them properly after they've been neglected and, quite often, just beyond that lush green exterior the inside is albeit derelict. Starved of sufficient light not much flourishes. They do, however, provide very good hiding places/shelter for all sorts of creatures.
> 
> Their roots have often been the cause of subsidence because they extract so much water from the soil. The consequence of removing the trees is that, once they're gone the area begins to swell again and this could cause problems for buildings too.
> If you're going to have them, Not you but a general you, it's best that they be planted away from any property.
> ...


I forgot we also have Leylandii. We have about 40 that we do use for screening, but we have them pruned back by a tree surgeon every one or two years.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I commuted to London from Cambridge for 4 years and it was horrendous. I’d often get stranded and for me, having problems with escalators because of dyspraxia it wasn’t as easy as finding another route via the underground which though it is much more disability friendly than it was, it can be very convoluted and after a day at work was awful. Even running well, never enough seats (I had to stand during IVF treatment and it was so distressing). When I moved offices outside London I started to drive and car share as the season ticket was over £4K and it was more economical and realiable to drive sadly. 

I have seen a few wonderful jobs in London but 4 years was more than enough. It was the constant dread of it going wrong, unable to plan anything in the evening. And we are only 50-60 miles away with two London connections...! 

Daughter of an ex BR manager so I’m trying not to rant politics!!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> I forgot we also have Leylandii. We have about 40 that we do use for screening, but we have them pruned back by a tree surgeon every one or two years.


Are they close to the house and very tall? Remember, the taller the tree the further its roots have to spread.

I check the roots of the two closest towering pines to our house (1.5 metre distant approx 30 metres in height ) every spring and autumn just to makes sure they haven't compromised the integrity of float the house stands on.
Spring because, after the big thaw the receding waters erode the land, exposing roots, and autumn because that's when their growth period comes to and end.

I also observe and record the angle on those trees that have a noticeable lean. We have three that are looking to felled within a year or two depending on weather conditions. Too wet and too windy.....then they might have to come down before they bring the house down with them. 
We are insured of course, but I'd rather carry a little job to prevent it from becoming a big job.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Are they close to the house and very tall? Remember, the taller the tree the further its roots have to spread.
> 
> I check the roots of the two closest towering pines to our house (1.5 metre distant approx 30 metres in height ) every spring and autumn just to makes sure they haven't compromised the integrity of float the house stands on.
> Spring because, after the big thaw the receding waters erode the land, exposing roots, and autumn because that's when their growth period comes to and end.
> ...


They are about 9 metres from the house, and approximately 7 metres tall. We never allow them to grow much more than that.

Like you say, they encourage wild life, which is why we love them, plus they block out the view of surrounding houses, but to let them grow much higher where we live would be irresponsible.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I just thought I'd pop this in here. On the telly tonight is Saving Planet Earth . Fixing a hole . 8 PM Ch 4

Saving Planet Earth: Fixing a Hole
8pm, Channel 4
As the sea ice retreats, the glaciers shrink and the deserts expand, it is good to watch a programme that has something positive to say about humans’ ability to address the error of their destructive ways. When scientists discovered in the 1970s the damage that CFCs were doing to the ozone layer – which protects the Earth from ultraviolet radiation – their warnings fell on deaf ears. This is the surprising story of how two unlikely eco-warriors united nations and averted an apocalypse


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

[


MilleD said:


> I'm sorry but i just can't stand this guy. There's something about him that makes me want to grind my teeth. Not even really sure what it is.
> 
> Sure he has a point about billionaires and huge corporations. But he seems to think trade unions are the answer to some things? They're just as self serving as the political parties.
> 
> Like i say, i couldn't watch much. I'm off to the dentist to get me teeth fixed.


Well I don't mind admitting I find him attractive It wasn't his looks or his physique I was first drawn to , it was his passionate defence of our natural world & pursuit of a fairer more compassionate society. And as I've become more & more familiar with his work & his activism, the more I've grown to admire him for his honesty, integrity & courage. George has spent his whole working life understanding, writing about, and researching the environment, and impacts on it. He is my hero. The world definitely needs more George Monbiots, Millie.

Like him or loathe him George clearly defines what neoliberalism means in that video, its a real pity you cant look beyond the man.

But fair enough, if George is bad for your teeth , what about listening to perhaps the worlds _leading_ critical thinker explain Neoliberalism then?

Noam Chomsky.






You can't seriously compare trade unions with corporate power & the powerful elite, trade unions are our best defence against them. On the whole trade unions have been a force for good - for 'us'! . Even that vehicle of neoliberalism, the IMF, admits rising inequality is strongly associated with the chipping away of the unions.

http://pressprogress.ca/imf_study_d...s_strongly_associated_with_rising_inequality/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I think I'd better reference how neoliberalism is relevant to the livestock industry so you dont think I've hijacked your thread @rottiepointerhouse

This explains it very well.

https://ethicaleating.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/neoliberalism/

*The food crisis and neoliberalism*

Neoliberalism. This word is popping up more and more often, especially in relation to the food crisis, but does anyone actually know what it means? You just try to find an understandable definition!

What further complicates matters is that for many of us, the term 'liberal' is seen as a good thing since, in politics, we see it as promoting individual rights, equal opportunities and limited government. However, you will find many right-wing politicians who oppose liberal political policies but actually promote liberal economic policies.

Economic liberalism, such as neoliberalism, is a completely different ball game to political or social liberalism. First of all, the 'neo' simply refers to a new kind of liberalism, a revival of that seen back in the late 17th century. The basis of neoliberal policies is that they promote privatisation and free trade between nations. Through privatisation, the control of the economy is transferred from the public to the private sector, enabling companies to grow in size and power. Free trade (or trade liberalisation) opposes government restrictions such as taxes, regulations and tariffs which are barriers to international trade; again giving more power to large, companies and rich nations. There is obviously a strong link between neoliberalism and globalisation.

These neoliberal policies have had a profound effect on our global economies for the last 3 decades. If we could trust the corporations of rich nations to be ethical perhaps we wouldn't be in such a desperate state; but the reality is that these companies are ruthless in their pursuit of money, destroying everything in their path. Neoliberal policies, supported by governments, have allowed trans-national companies to enter developing nations and force people off their land. These powerful companies also produce goods intensively on a mass scale which allows them to out-compete the locals and export goods around the world. All this has devastating impacts on the environment and human rights.

So how does this relate to the food crisis? A good example is that of soy in Latin America. In recent years, soy plantations have taken over. Companies from wealthy nations, assisted by these neoliberal policies, have muscled their way in, evicted people from their land and destroyed forests to make way for these plantations. This does not benefit the Latin American people because not only are their livelihoods and environments being destroyed but they do not even get to eat the soy - it is all exported to European countries and other rich nations, around 80-90% of which is fed to animals raised for meat and dairy. In Latin America, many of those who live near the plantations suffer from malnutrition. Most of the soy is genetically modified.

Many social justice and environmental organisations oppose the damaging policies of neoliberalism and promote the local and national production and consumption of food. Food sovereignty, the right of peoples and farmers to produce their own food in a way that suits them culturally, is the way forward. And that means no more destructive, intensive farming for export.

The problem here, at least for those who enjoy their cheap and regular supply of meat, is that the current meat industry relies on neoliberalism. If we stop the intensive, mass production of soy and grain in developing countries for export for animal feed in Europe, how are we going to feed all those animals in order to provide the meat we want? If we continue to maintain the current demand for meat, we continue to support neoliberalism, we continue to support the most unscrupulous and power-hungry companies in the world, like Cargill - and that means local people being forced from their land, conflicts, GM, pesticides that poison local people, deforestation, water pollution…

Just as the answer to the energy crisis is to reduce consumption as much as possible and use only sustainable sources of energy, the answer to the food crisis is the same; and that means we need to eat foods produced in an efficient, ethical and sustainable way. Go vegan.


(I have switched my avatar a lot lately @rottiepointerhouse , I never gave a second thought to the confusion it does cause when members change them. I might try & find my old fox one)


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I do think with all the new substitutions it is easier than ever to go vegan. Most restaurants these days have options and I see more and more people avoiding cows milk. A shift is definitely happening.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> [
> 
> Well I don't mind admitting I find him attractive


Well I did wonder why you keep posting things from him 



noushka05 said:


> [ It wasn't his looks or his physique I was first drawn to , it was his passionate defence of our natural world & pursuit of a fairer more compassionate society. And as I've become more & more familiar with his work & his activism, the more I've grown to admire him for his honesty, integrity & courage. George has spent his whole working life understanding, writing about, and researching the environment, and impacts on it. He is my hero. The world definitely needs more George Monbiots, Millie.
> 
> Like him or loathe him George clearly defines what neoliberalism means in that video, its a real pity you cant look beyond the man.
> 
> ...


When I get a minute I will have a look and let you know how my teeth feel


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MilleD said:


> Well I did wonder why you keep posting things from him
> 
> When I get a minute I will have a look and let you know how my teeth feel


Give me Monbiot over Clooney any day of the week

Just grit them (thank you x)


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@noushka05 I'm so relieved to see your avatar photo back as now I can recognise your posts easily


----------



## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Noticed this thread and thought I'd add my two-pence. Apologies, I read the first three pages, and couldn't be bothered with the rest, so if I'm just re-hashing what others have said, sorry. 

I do understand the ethical reason for veganism, the way we treat animals is appalling, for meat and dairy. I do have a respect for vegans, as it's not just a diet-choice, it's a life-style choice, and I get it. Veganism is obviously great for animal welfare, but it is not the everything solution to the environment. IMO, it's not simple as that we eat meat, it's that there are simply too many consumers on this planet. And in the West,_ too many consumers _eating _too much_ meat. We are simply greedy. 
I do think human beings can't help it in many respects. Yes, we're intelligent beings, but for thousands of years we struggled, and I think we find it difficult to (subconciously) get over that. 
There is no real need to eat meat for most of us now, food is generally plentiful and we can eat a balanced diet if we put thought to it, without eating meat. 
The thing is, I want to eat meat because I like it. 
Selfish, yes, I admit it. Beef is my favourite thing. I am slowly cutting down on my meat consumption, and I'm eating more and more fish (some would argue it's no different) and vegetable-based meals. But I know I won't give up meat.

I don't have children, and won't have children. My carbon footprint dies with me (although the plastic I have used probably won't for hundreds of years). But this isn't about "I do this, you do that", we should all just _try our best _and then try and improve on our best every year.

Thanks for the vegan recipes, I'll give a few a whirl!


----------



## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Boxer123 said:


> I do think with all the new substitutions it is easier than ever to go vegan. Most restaurants these days have options and I see more and more people avoiding cows milk. A shift is definitely happening.


To feed yourself at home, I think it's relatively easy. To eat out is harder. There are vegetarian restaurants, and often a few dishes. Vegan dishes in restaurants are getting better, but it's stil usually a token dish.....


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jackie C said:


> To feed yourself at home, I think it's relatively easy. To eat out is harder. There are vegetarian restaurants, and often a few dishes. Vegan dishes in restaurants are getting better, but it's stil usually a token dish.....


We are quite lucky here in oxford loads of choice we also have a dedicated vegan cafe round the corner.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

noushka05 said:


> So how does this relate to the food crisis? A good example is that of soy in Latin America. In recent years, soy plantations have taken over. Companies from wealthy nations, assisted by these neoliberal policies, have muscled their way in, evicted people from their land and destroyed forests to make way for these plantations. This does not benefit the Latin American people because not only are their livelihoods and environments being destroyed but they do not even get to eat the soy - it is all exported to European countries and other rich nations, around 80-90% of which is fed to animals raised for meat and dairy. In Latin America, many of those who live near the plantations suffer from malnutrition. Most of the soy is genetically modified.


Yup... And then these corporations and governments say that they are bringing jobs and prosperity to these countries. But they're not. On paper it looks good (I guess) but in practice, it's the wealthy taking advantage of the poor - the "poor" who up until then did just fine cultivating their own land. They didn't have much financially, but they did have enough to eat. Now they don't even have that. 
It's a different version of the same thing that has been going on since the dawn of civilization, the more "civilized" ones trying to civilize the wild natives and in their arrogance, don't see that the natives don't need any help from "civilization"


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/government-urged-force-meat-producers-label-products-honestly

Compassion in World Farming campaigning for all meat products to be labelled so that consumers know how the animals were raised. Given that 70 % of the animals eaten for food come from factory farms its time the labels showed that and stopped pretending the animals have lived in natural conditions.

Please sign the petition

https://action.ciwf.org.uk/page/281...d=2d57aea1&supporter.appealCode=CAPWE_UK0818c


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @noushka05 I'm so relieved to see your avatar photo back as now I can recognise your posts easily


Don't say I never do anything for you


O2.0 said:


> Yup... And then these corporations and governments say that they are bringing jobs and prosperity to these countries. But they're not. On paper it looks good (I guess) but in practice, it's the wealthy taking advantage of the poor - the "poor" who up until then did just fine cultivating their own land. They didn't have much financially, but they did have enough to eat. Now they don't even have that.
> It's a different version of the same thing that has been going on since the dawn of civilization, the more "civilized" ones trying to civilize the wild natives and in their arrogance, don't see that the natives don't need any help from "civilization"


They just end up with massive debt, resources plundered, environment trashed & polluted.

I have a most amazing book called Touch the Earth. Its a selection of statements & writings by Native Americans recounting what they went through at the hands of the white man. It is the most profound book I've ever read, it is heartbreaking. The Native Americans were the civilized ones. And Indigenous tribes people are still today are being driven from their land - at the alter of neoliberalism.

This quote by Chief Luther Standing Bear of the Oglala band of Sioux is in my book. So thought provoking.

_We did not think of the great open plains*,* the beautiful rolling hills, the winding streams with tangled growth, as 'wild'. Only to the white man was nature a 'wilderness' and only to him was it 'infested' with 'wild' animals and 'savage' people. To us it was tame. Earth was bountiful and we were surrounded with the blessings of the Great Mystery. Not until the hairy man from the east came and with brutal frenzy heaped injustices upon us and the families we loved was it "wild" for us. When the very animals of the forest began fleeing from his approach, then it was that for us the "Wild West" began._


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/government-urged-force-meat-producers-label-products-honestly
> 
> Compassion in World Farming campaigning for all meat products to be labelled so that consumers know how the animals were raised. Given that 70 % of the animals eaten for food come from factory farms its time the labels showed that and stopped pretending the animals have lived in natural conditions.
> 
> ...


All that does is show you where they've been raised, not in what conditions and even less how they have been treated.
As I've said many times, a lot is down to the stockman that looks after them


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> All that does is show you where they've been raised, not in what conditions and even less how they have been treated.
> As I've said many times, a lot is down to the stockman that looks after them


Hi Rona - nice to see you back. I think a label telling consumers whether the animals have been raised in factory farms is better than the current system. Not ideal but a step by step improvement. I'd also like to see one telling us how they were killed but I suspect that might be a step too far just yet


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'd much rather see pigs in a straw based air con indoor system than what I see regularly around here with outdoor systems that are probably labeled free range. The poor pigs are up to their bellies in mud in the winter freezing cold and no shade from the summer heat.
It's how you treat them not how you keep them


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

rona said:


> I'd much rather see pigs in a straw based air con indoor system than what I see regularly around here with outdoor systems that are probably labeled free range. The poor pigs are up to their bellies in mud in the winter freezing cold and no shade from the summer heat.
> It's how you treat them not how you keep them


I think that is a really important point there.

"Its how you treat them not how you keep them"

As you say a straw based air con indoor space where the pigs can move, play, are happy and healthy have access to clean, fresh food and water sounds like a much better environment then being knee deep in mud, cold in winter and potentially hot and sun burned in summer. 
It's not as black and white as indoor or outdoor.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Its not 100 % about indoor/outdoor but more about natural environments for the animal, being able to practice the behaviours they would do. 70% of livestock in this country are factory farmed and a large % of pigs are slaughtered after being gassed. I can (but won't) show you details of live/conscious pigs being hung up on the rail for their throats to be slit because they've been missed by the stunner or a heart breaking photo of a sheep on a conveyor belt sat looking so terrified as all around it are dead and part butchered. I'd love to know how many pig farms there are with air con deep straw bedding where pigs get to frolick and play. It is possible to have outdoor pigs with shelter from the weather. Not so easy to slaughter them with humanity though is it?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Perhaps I kind remind people of this hell hole where a lot of supermarket pig produce comes from. Disgraceful and shameful. The average person tucking into their bacon sandwich is not eating humanely reared or slaughtered pigs 

https://www.viva.org.uk/hogwood/story


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...stall-sienna-miller-mick-jagger-a7813746.html

CIWF investigation shows that 81% of UK piglets have their tails docked - no anaesthetic is required if this is done before they are 7 days old.

According to the RSPCA only 3% of pigs in the UK spend their entire lives outdoors.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> All that does is show you where they've been raised, not in what conditions and even less how they have been treated.
> As I've said many times, a lot is down to the stockman that looks after them


If an animal has been intensively reared, it doesn't matter how good the stockman, they still have horrendously cruel lives. Pigs are highly intelligent, sensitive, sentient creatures - imagine keeping a dog like that for all its life until its killed. Its criminal.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lets have a nice pig story for a change


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Lets have a nice pig story for a change


Aw how lovely. That has brought a tear to my eye. So happy one for her & her piglets, but at the same time sad I cant help thinking of all her kin who aren't so fortunate. If I win the lottery I would LOVE to rescue as many of these wonderful animals as can from the cruel intensive pig systems.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Aw how lovely. That has brought a tear to my eye. So happy one for her & her piglets, but at the same time sad I cant help thinking of all her kin who aren't so fortunate. If I win the lottery I would LOVE to rescue as many of these wonderful animals as can from the cruel intensive pig systems.


Tempting Noush but it won't solve the problem for the generations of pigs to come. We need to target money and efforts at removing the demand both by campaigning (Anonymous for the Voiceless/cube of truth are doing a fantastic job of getting the images out amongst the public) by showing how easy it is to live without animal products and offering alternatives like the huge variety of plant based milks now available making the swap so simple. Bacon is always a tricky one - my OH has been trying this one which is not a bad alternative taste/texture wise although I can't speak for its environmental credentials.

https://www.vegancartel.co.uk/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Tempting Noush but it won't solve the problem for the generations of pigs to come. We need to target money and efforts at removing the demand both by campaigning (Anonymous for the Voiceless/cube of truth are doing a fantastic job of getting the images out amongst the public) by showing how easy it is to live without animal products and offering alternatives like the huge variety of plant based milks now available making the swap so simple. Bacon is always a tricky one - my OH has been trying this one which is not a bad alternative taste/texture wise although I can't speak for its environmental credentials.
> 
> https://www.vegancartel.co.uk/


I know it wont, I'd still love to give a real life to some of them now.

Were you aware my George is still doing his bit RPH? Heres his latest. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...et-meat-dairy-livestock-food-free-range-steak

_In switching to a plant-based diet, we could make use of a neat synergy. Most protein crops - peas and beans - capture nitrogen from the air, fertilising themselves and raising nitrate levels in the soil that subsequent crops, such as cereals and oilseeds, can use. While the transition to plant protein is unlikely to eliminate the global system's need for artificial fertiliser, the pioneering work of vegan organic growers, using only plant-based composts and importing as little fertility as possible from elsewhere, should be supported by research that governments have so far failed to fund.

Understandably, the livestock industry will resist all this, using the bucolic images and pastoral fantasies that have beguiled us for so long. But it can't force us to eat meat. The shift is ours to make. It becomes easier every year.
_
I havent seen that vegan bacon before. Personally I've never missed bacon. It was fish I probably missed most - not anymore. I couldn't stomach it now:Wtf

I did that Knives over Forks, lentil, sweet potato & swiss chard curry for tea (I substituted the sweet potato for butternut squash - I've got loads on my allotment) It was SO nice!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I know it wont, I'd still love to give a real life to some of them now.
> 
> Were you aware my George is still doing his bit RPH? Heres his latest. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...et-meat-dairy-livestock-food-free-range-steak
> 
> ...


Will have a read later on.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.

I do my best to buy organically grown foods, ethically produced meats & fish, etc -

I belong to a food co-op, I buy thru a direct-sale farmers' co-op in Vermont (they deliver to Boston weekly, I am expecting an order this Thurs), I buy organic veg, fruits, nuts, mostly line-caught fish, I try to buy local as much as possible to limit my food miles.
I can't buy locally grown bananas, mangoes, coffee, tea, chocolate, vanilla pods, etc - but I do buy organic.

My coffee is bird-friendly, grown under the canopy in shade, not on a monocrop plantation, & it's Fair Trade - the coffee farmer is paid a decent price, the middleman doesn't get the big bucks. 
All these things help - I don't eat meat, but my client & his BFF do, so I make purchases as conscientiously as possible.

OTOH, I use leather - my fave leashes are veg-tanned harness leather, braided, with brass or bronze snaps, from a U-S company. Some of my belts are leather; my horse tack? - leather. My hiking boots of many years, Danner calf-high leather with both Thinsulate & Gore-Tex under the leather upper & tongue; I wore them year-round, in 90' heat & minus-60 cold.
Because someone else eats the 1,200# steer is IMO no reason to throw away the wrapper - I think we should use hair, hide, bones, sinews, hooves, EVERYthing, every single part of every single animal. Killing an animal is a completely separate issue from *using *every bit of that animal, once s/he is dead. Waste would be a crime in itself.

- terry

.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I know it wont, I'd still love to give a real life to some of them now.
> 
> Were you aware my George is still doing his bit RPH? Heres his latest. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...et-meat-dairy-livestock-food-free-range-steak
> 
> ...


Great article I enjoyed reading so thanks for posting. Glad you enjoyed the curry, there is so much delicious plant based food to eat I can't imagine how I ever found space for animal products


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Now sheep. Kicked and beaten whilst being shorn on tv news tonight.  Trouble is when something has to be done fast, is physically demanding and involves the control of animals, people get tired, fed up, hurt ..and then the slightest thing sends them over the edge and they lose their temper. Eventually they become immune to it and impatience and cruelty becomes the norm. It’s why I spent a lot time and money learning how to do my horses’ feet. Seen far too many farriers losing their temper with horses, or thinking you have to smack them about and get tough, to teach them ‘respect’.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.

On our farm, it was the *sheep *that kicked & punched the *shearer* around, LOL, if we didn't take care & pay close attn. 

Our sheep spent the year going onto pasture year-round on our own property, lambed each spring while snow was still down, & were sheared in late spring, B4 the summer heat began. // Shearing took maybe 10 to 15 minutes per adult, less for half-grown stock, & the older ones didn't really fuss after the 1st few seconds sat on their butts- they'd been thru it so many times, it was no longer scary, just a few moments to resign themselves to restraint & the noise of the clippers, & they were done.

I hardly think 4 to 5 days of mild stress of every 365, is a horrible life. 

- terry

.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sadly that isn’t what was on our news tonight. Sheep being kicked, one held down having its neck stamped on, another it’s head held and hit repeatedly on the floor. I’m sure your sheep were fine, these were being shorn in the U.K. by contractors who’d had 2 days training. We are bringing in cctv in abattoirs, seems anywhere livestock is being handled needs monitored cctv.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> 
> On our farm, it was the *sheep *that kicked & punched the *shearer* around, LOL, if we didn't take care & pay close attn.
> 
> ...


Please take a look at the video I have just posted on another thread about this Terry, it is diabolical and far far more than "mild stress"








Elles said:


> Sadly that isn't what was on our news tonight. Sheep being kicked, one held down having its neck stamped on, another it's head held and hit repeatedly on the floor. I'm sure your sheep were fine, these were being shorn in the U.K. by contractors who'd had 2 days training. We are bringing in cctv in abattoirs, seems anywhere livestock is being handled needs monitored cctv.


I've just started a separate thread about it, the undercover footage is beyond belief and made my blood boil so much. If I could get my hands on those disgusting human beings I would be ramming those shears where they would seriously hurt :Rage:Rage


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Great article I enjoyed reading so thanks for posting. Glad you enjoyed the curry, there is so much delicious plant based food to eat I can't imagine how I ever found space for animal products


I thought you like it (he's done more articles on the subject, you might be interested to look through these when you get the chance  - https://www.monbiot.com/category/farming/ )

It was gorgeous. I've done quite a few variations of dahl curries and that was a really nice one - SO easy too! There was enough left for my hubbys snap & for my dinner yesterday. And it was cheap! :Smuggrin The squash, onion, chard were all off my allotment. The spices,stock cubes, garlic, ginger & the rice accompaniment I already had in. It cost me practically nothing.

You deserve much credit for your threads & posts on here for putting plant based foods in the spotlight RPH. Good work


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I didnt see the news & hadn't heard about the sheep. I cant watch the video. What makes people so cruel? Humans have made it a living hell for *most* animals sharing this planet. Its shameful.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I didnt see the news & hadn't heard about the sheep. I cant watch the video. What makes people so cruel? Humans have made it a living hell for *most* animals sharing this planet. Its shameful.


Shameful indeed and so so sad that we humans have lost our hold on reality and find this in any way acceptable. The video is a tough watch because they really have absolutely no respect for those sheep.


----------



## Eeyore (Aug 28, 2014)

Elles said:


> Now sheep. Kicked and beaten whilst being shorn on tv news tonight.  Trouble is when something has to be done fast, is physically demanding and involves the control of animals, people get tired, fed up, hurt ..and then the slightest thing sends them over the edge and they lose their temper. Eventually they become immune to it and impatience and cruelty becomes the norm. It's why I spent a lot time and money learning how to do my horses' feet. Seen far too many farriers losing their temper with horses, or thinking you have to smack them about and get tough, to teach them 'respect'.


Once I watched a program about how to slaughter cows humanely. The topic is contradictory in terms, of course, but still it showed what you could do easily if you wanted. This woman, who was autistic, used to comfort herself with wooden "cage" type of thing, in which she felt safe and said how feeling the touch of wooden walls helped to to relax. She applied this understanding to cows and built a line, which had walls and able cows to walk one in a row to a place, where they were painlessly put to sleep. Not a single cow panicked as they were just following each other and no one saw a dead animal. Didn´t cost much either, just some understanding. But, unfortunately the method was not used much as many just didn´t care.

Still, I believe that we could do much more without any extra cost, if we truly tried to understand how to treat animals right. Best would be of course that the only meat we ate would come from animals, which died a natural death. Until then, we just have to keep on doing everything we can to help animals have a good life.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Eeyore said:


> Once I watched a program about how to slaughter cows humanely.
> .


_The slaughterhouse; a factory where death is produced
A place in which unspeakable forms of systematic cruelty and violence take place
I'm going there soon
I've heard talk of humane slaughter 
But I've also heard no such thing exists in the cries of those who have already been there.








_
​


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

@Eeyore Temple Grandin? I have an autistic guy put my oldies (horses) to sleep. I think it helps that he's very kind, and calm, but unemotional, detached almost. They don't worry about him at all, when they may have had (to them) bad experiences with a vet sticking needles in them and treating them for ailments, so might be worried about a vet appearing.


----------



## Eeyore (Aug 28, 2014)

Elles said:


> @Eeyore Temple Grandin? I have an autistic guy put my oldies (horses) to sleep. I think it helps that he's very kind, and calm, but unemotional, detached almost. They don't worry about him at all, when they may have had (to them) bad experiences with a vet sticking needles in them and treating them for ailments, so might be worried about a vet appearing.


Yes, it was her. Well remembered! That just shows that if you know how to behave with animals, you can do almost miracles. Pity there are so many people working with animals, who know nothing how to treat animals right.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

There really is no way to humanely kill animals. 
There's no way to treat animals right, with respect and kindness, while lowering them into gas chambers where they will burn inside out screaming in pain, or slitting their throats, or bolt gunning them in the head. There just isn't. If you replaced these "farmed animals" with dogs or cats, how do you think people would react? They'd do everything in their power to stop it, and they certainly wouldn't make excuses for it being right. They would never dream of paying for this to happen to dogs or cats every day either. It's speciesism at its finest.

The word humane means; having or showing compassion or benevolence
The word Slaughter means; to brutally or violently kill

They are literally the *Opposite* of eachother.

There is no need to do this to animals any more.


----------



## Eeyore (Aug 28, 2014)

Wild With Roxi said:


> There really is no way to humanely kill animals.
> There's no way to treat animals right, with respect and kindness, while lowering them into gas chambers where they will burn inside out screaming in pain, or slitting their throats, or bolt gunning them in the head. There just isn't. If you replaced these "farmed animals" with dogs or cats, how do you think people would react? They'd do everything in their power to stop it, and they certainly wouldn't make excuses for it being right. They would never dream of paying for this to happen to dogs or cats every day either. It's speciesism at its finest.
> 
> The word humane means; having or showing compassion or benevolence
> ...


I was thinking that the goal is to treat all animals like we treat our pets when the time comes. But until that time comes, every single improvement that helps animals to have a better life is a way forward.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Eeyore said:


> I was thinking that the goal is to treat all animals like we treat our pets when the time comes. But until that time comes, every single improvement that helps animals to have a better life is a way forward.


But why, if we could, wouldn't we stop it altogether? Why wouldn't we as animals lovers want to stop the mass killing and abuse of zillions of animals every year...This is the question that has me stumped. If we all gradually made the change, we could save our planet, potentially end diseases that kill thousands of humans every year, stop the killing and abuse and torture of an unimaginable amount of animals AND be healthier at the end of it all as well! It's so simple, yet many think we're militant for suggesting it. We really could have a chance to save our planet.

But yes, I understand where you're coming from, in an ideal world for a lot of meat eaters the thought of animals being treated well their whole lives and then when they peacefully die of natural causes we eat their bodies, rather than killing them at only a fraction of their lifespan and torturing them up until the day they die in agony. I agree, it seems better. But sadly, animal agriculture is only going to get worse as the majority of people now a days demand animal flesh and secretions so there's no other way to respond to that demand other than churning out and slaughtering animals and getting them to shops etc. as fast as they can, and sadly that means they neglect to care about the well being of the animals, just the money at the end.

The only way to stop this is to live Vegan.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

There was vegan march in London today . just caught some of it on the London news. Looked well attended.



Eeyore said:


> I was thinking that the goal is to treat all animals like we treat our pets when the time comes. But until that time comes, every single improvement that helps animals to have a better life is a way forward.


How would that be possible, though ? My pets are put to sleep by a vet with an injection with me holding them either at the surgery or my home . 
Farm animals will still have to travels miles to a strange place and herded and handled by strangers who don't really care for them.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Euthanasia drugs can't be used on animals meant to become food. It's kind of bad for the consumer.....


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Euthanasia drugs can't be used on animals meant to become food. It's kind of bad for the consumer.....


Good point.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Yeah we cannot use euthanasia to kill animals for people to eat as it would be in the meat and well...
And we don't bolt gun our pets in the head, lower them into gas chambers, drown them in boiling hot water, slit there throat, grind them up alive..when they are suffering and the most humane option for them is for them to be peacefully put to sleep. 

What we do to farmed animals Basically the opposite of what we do to our pets.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Wild With Roxi

The drugs that are given to farm animals as well , anti- biotics etc .


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> @Wild With Roxi
> 
> The drugs that are given to farm animals as well , anti- biotics etc .


Yeah


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

What does abattoir mean in English?
Today it *means* "to lessen," but back when it came to *English* via the Old French abattre, it *meant* "to beat down," a *meaning* Old French had inherited from the Latin ad ("to") + battere ("beat"). So when you think of *abattoir*, you *can* think of the idea of "a beating," or an animal's life "abating" until it *is* gone.

_*if that doesn't make you sick to your stomach then I have no idea what will.*_

abating means:
-something unpleasant or severe
-reduce or remove (a nuisance).

synonyms: decrease, lessen, diminish, reduce,

So basically we are beating animals down, lessening, diminishing, decreasing, removing and reducing them into mere pieces of "meat" in an unpleasant and severe way.

Who else hates humans at this point??


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> Who else hates humans at this point??


Are you not human then?


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Are you not human then?


I am ashamed to be human..I really am.

dog fighting, puppy farms, sea world, animal industries, animal abuse, animal neglect, climate change, destroying our planet, poaching, de-forestation, wars, terrorism.. there is so much bad that we humans (as a species) are to blame for 

Not just farming, but much much more.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Rafa said:


> You need to calm down.
> 
> Comparing the meat industry to the Holocaust is certainly not okay.


I wasn't comparing it as in what happened, more the numbers of innocent People and animals killed and a way to describe just how many animals are killed each year.
I am not in any way saying that the meat industry is worse than the holocaust, just using the dreadful things that happened as an example..


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Edit


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

@Wild With Roxi I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down. Maybe leave this thread for a while?


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

I'm so Sorry. I'm stressed out atm and got carried away..I easily say things about veganism in the wrong places and usually word it wrong and make a fool of myself, I should really stick to vegan forums. I always get like this after seeing particularly bad footage..I guess I went a bit rant-y :Arghh


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

@Rafa @Animallover26 ^^


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I'm so Sorry. I'm stressed out atm and got carried away..I easily say things about veganism in the wrong places and usually word it wrong and make a fool of myself, I should really stick to vegan forums. I always get like this after seeing particularly bad footage..I guess I went a bit rant-y :Arghh


That's okay. It's okay to be passionate about a subject, but proportion is needed.

The Holocaust is a subject that should be mentioned only with the utmost of respect and compassion and in the right context.


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I'm so Sorry. I'm stressed out atm and got carried away..I easily say things about veganism in the wrong places and usually word it wrong and make a fool of myself, I should really stick to vegan forums. I always get like this after seeing particularly bad footage..I guess I went a bit rant-y :Arghh


That's OK.

We all have subjects we are passionate about and there is nothing wrong with that.

As @Rafa said though, certain subjects, the Holocaust being one of them, need to be talked about with respect and compassion.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Rafa said:


> That's okay. It's okay to be passionate about a subject, but proportion is needed.
> 
> The Holocaust is a subject that should be mentioned only with the utmost of respect and compassion and in the right context.


I know, I really do. I'm sorry I mentioned it in that way.. 

I'm very grateful that you don't think I'm a nutter now, thank you for that!


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've done a bit of pruning and removed some contentious posts and quotes. Obviously it's a highly emotive topic but try to keep a sense of proportion.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Animallover26 said:


> That's OK.
> 
> We all have subjects we are passionate about and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> As @Rafa said though, certain subjects, the Holocaust being one of them, need to be talked about with respect and compassion.


Yeah  I 1000% respect every individual that suffered in the Holocaust, and it's a subject that brings a lot of sadness to me even thinking about it just now.
I'm really sorry that I gave off that impression, it was not my intention at all. I have learned now, and I won't mention it again in a subject like this.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Edit (I'm sorry about bringing this up.I regret it a ton, I'm really sorry! I erased some of my messages, but I still show utmost respect and compassion towards all those that suffered in WW2.)


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> Edit (I'm sorry about bringing this up.I regret it a ton, I'm really sorry! I erased some of my messages, but I still show utmost respect and compassion towards all those that suffered in WW2.)


It's alright. You've recognised you shouldn't have mentioned it and you've apologised.

We all make mistakes.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Wild With Roxi 
Its alright . Its upsetting watching film clips of animal cruelty . perhaps its best not to watch them , I rarely do myself, you can campaign without having to watch them .


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If you look though, there are also many people doing great and kind things.


----------



## Eeyore (Aug 28, 2014)

Wild With Roxi said:


> But why, if we could, wouldn't we stop it altogether? Why wouldn't we as animals lovers want to stop the mass killing and abuse of zillions of animals every year...This is the question that has me stumped. If we all gradually made the change, we could save our planet, potentially end diseases that kill thousands of humans every year, stop the killing and abuse and torture of an unimaginable amount of animals AND be healthier at the end of it all as well! It's so simple, yet many think we're militant for suggesting it. We really could have a chance to save our planet.
> 
> But yes, I understand where you're coming from, in an ideal world for a lot of meat eaters the thought of animals being treated well their whole lives and then when they peacefully die of natural causes we eat their bodies, rather than killing them at only a fraction of their lifespan and torturing them up until the day they die in agony. I agree, it seems better. But sadly, animal agriculture is only going to get worse as the majority of people now a days demand animal flesh and secretions so there's no other way to respond to that demand other than churning out and slaughtering animals and getting them to shops etc. as fast as they can, and sadly that means they neglect to care about the well being of the animals, just the money at the end.
> 
> The only way to stop this is to live Vegan.


I see you are very passionate about veganism and I respect that, as it is a very good cause. We all need dreams to pursue making things better, even if it took decades to reach them. Before that every step we take to treat animals is important, as otherwise we may go backward. E.g. Trump cancelled some legislation to protect wildlife, and in my experience in most countries we have parties/politicians, who would like to do the same.

Also in real life we need meat e.g. to feed our pets. Cats need meat/fish, snakes need rats etc, Many animals need meat at zoos too etc. Even in an animal friendly world we´d still need a system to provide meat for animals, even if all humans would be vegans. But there is hope, as I saw e.g a program about how meat was created from a cell in a lab. Extremely expensive at the moment, naturally, but technology gets better and cheaper every day, so maybe one day we could have artificially grown meat and there would be no need to kill any animal for their meat.

Meanwhile we need people, who are passionate enough to keep fighting for the good cause and I am sure one day there will be enough people to actually have enough political power to change the laws. Personally I used to eat meat way way much more a few years ago. Now I have vegetarian meals 90% of the time, buy all dairy product from a company, which is supposed to have the most animal friendly process to produce milk (got the first certificate for that in Europe) and my eggs come from farms, where chicken can have a natural life. I pay a bit more for this, but it is worth every penny.

Still, my dogs eat meat every day and I have no idea how that meat is produced. Does anyone know how the meat for dog food is produced and what would be the best brand from this perspective? Again, I would be happy to pay a bit more, as the cause is really so important.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Eeyore said:


> I see you are very passionate about veganism and I respect that, as it is a very good cause. We all need dreams to pursue making things better, even if it took decades to reach them. Before that every step we take to treat animals is important, as otherwise we may go backward. E.g. Trump cancelled some legislation to protect wildlife, and in my experience in most countries we have parties/politicians, who would like to do the same.
> 
> Also in real life we need meat e.g. to feed our pets. Cats need meat/fish, snakes need rats etc, Many animals need meat at zoos too etc. Even in an animal friendly world we´d still need a system to provide meat for animals, even if all humans would be vegans. But there is hope, as I saw e.g a program about how meat was created from a cell in a lab. Extremely expensive at the moment, naturally, but technology gets better and cheaper every day, so maybe one day we could have artificially grown meat and there would be no need to kill any animal for their meat.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of what you've said, yes it would be great if we could artificially grow meat for our pets. 
I won't go into anything too much, but a lot of dairy farms take away the babies from the mom cows to use all milk and get enough profit, and kill the dairy cows once they can't produce babies and milk anymore..But of course the farm you buy from could be much different, I wouldn't know. Much the same sort of thing with Laying Hens.
It's great that your'e 90% vegetarian.  
I guess every step towards change does make a difference, and we might just see a vegan world one day! It's great that you go out of your way to buy "better" animal products, rather than eating the worst kind as so many farms nowadays are bad sadly.

A lot of dog food is made from the worst treated animals unfortunately..I find this really disheartening  I do know Natures Menu use "free range" "wild caught" and "non caged". That's the food I might use at some point in the near future. Dog's are really the only animal that *can* thrive on a vegan kibble and/or wet food, but Cats being obligate carnivores...I mean some might, but others could die from lack of taurine and other things they can only get from meat. Snakes are the same. 
My dog was on a vegan diet at one stage to see if he could overcome some health issues he had, such as skin problems and constant ear infection, what I mean by constant ear infection is that he hadn't been clear of it in 2-3 years...Yeah. 
But I tried him on Benevo Wet and Dry Vegan Food and Ami Dog Kibble. He loved the food, and the vegan treats, and he didn't have the ear infection at all while he was on it and his skin mostly cleared up! But when we only had a little left we just transitioned him back onto meat based food...And his problems came back  He's still on meat based dog food atm, and i'm even considering Natures Menu Raw food (They do wild caught deer and "free range" chicken..Better than nothing?). One option for me personally could be a mix of the vegan foods, and some of the wild deer raw food cubes just to make sure he's completely healthy..Idk.

Thank you for your understanding of both sides, it's people like you who will really change the world.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Oh and as to how the dog food meats are produced, USUALLY it's the by products of low quality meats from humans in the less expensive foods, such as hair,skin,lungs, spleen,liver,fatty tissue, blood, brains and kidneys and other unwanted pieces of the animals killed for humans to eat. Some higher quality brands use animals specifically killed for dog food, which is something I'm not particularly educated on, so I can't help you there. A lot of vegans who feed meat based food to their pets choose the lowER quality foods as they are by products and would be thrown away anyway, rather than funding for animals to be specifically killed for the dog food. But it depends.


----------



## Eeyore (Aug 28, 2014)

Wild With Roxi said:


> I agree with a lot of what you've said, yes it would be great if we could artificially grow meat for our pets.
> I won't go into anything too much, but a lot of dairy farms take away the babies from the mom cows to use all milk and get enough profit, and kill the dairy cows once they can't produce babies and milk anymore..But of course the farm you buy from could be much different, I wouldn't know. Much the same sort of thing with Laying Hens.
> It's great that your'e 90% vegetarian.
> I guess every step towards change does make a difference, and we might just see a vegan world one day! It's great that you go out of your way to buy "better" animal products, rather than eating the worst kind as so many farms nowadays are bad sadly.
> ...


Thanks for the information about dog food and really it is people like you who will eventually change the world. I just follow...


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wild With Roxi said:


> Dog's are really the only animal that *can* thrive on a vegan kibble


There really has not been sufficient research into the subject to be able to make such a categoric statement.

It isn't really known what the* long term* effects of such a diet will be, either good or bad.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Rafa said:


> There really has not been sufficient research into the subject to be able to make such a categoric statement.
> 
> It isn't really known what the* long term* effects of such a diet will be, either good or bad.


Yeah, I agree there isn't enough research, and we don't 100% know the long term affects, but there has been dogs on vegan diets for a while now, a lot weren't on a vegan food more scraps or homemade diets though. Dogs on vegan diets have been known to thrive, one of the longest living dogs in the Guiness book of Records lived to be 28 on a vegan diet  But of course, since there isn't so much research on the topic, I choose to feed my dog on a non vegan diet. Some dogs don't thrive, some do. It really depends on the brands you use, your dog and lot's of other factors.


----------



## Wild With Roxi (Jul 25, 2018)

Rafa said:


> There really has not been sufficient research into the subject to be able to make such a categoric statement.
> 
> It isn't really known what the* long term* effects of such a diet will be, either good or bad.


By "*can*", I meant they CAN thrive, but it's not 100% proven. More that It is indeed possible, not a true fact. Some dogs can thrive on low quality food, while the majority don't, it's the same kind of thing..kind of. My Dog certainly thrived on it, but that was because I did not just feed kibble.
I fed kibble, wet food, vegan treats, cooked veg such as sweet corn, peas, carrots, broccoli, sweet potato, potato..and oats, brown rice, quinoa, lentils and even raw coconut, papaya and sweet potato  I also added coconut oil on top of his food. Seeds such as sunflower, pumpkin, chia..Dried wholegrain pasta..as well as nuts occasionally such as almonds, peanuts and cashews. This diet worked for mylo, as it was bursting with flavours, nutrients and variety, and It did help his skin conditions and ear infection  but every single dog is different, so what worked for him might not work for another dog. Anyway, mylo's back on meat based foods as nowhere in ireland sells vegan food, only only shipped from the UK so It's not really easy to get if we're running low all of a sudden.

That's just my experience of trying the vegan diet for one month with my dog.


----------

