# Teenage Tearaways - Strengths and Struggles



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I realised we didn't have a special teenage/adolescent thread, so thought I could start one. 

Dogs come out of puppyhood starting to become a valued family member, then BOOM! Adolescence hits and they seem to forget everything they learned, but they are bigger and less cute! It's at this age lots of people really start struggling with their dogs, and lots get rehomed at this age because the funny naughty cute puppy has become a thug with seemingly no training or boundaries. Between 6 months and 2 years dogs can be in their adolescent stage, which means their hormones are raging and their brain is rewiring. They act like puppies but are the size of adults. Some dogs sail through adolescence like nothing is happening, others? They become real teenage tearaways. 

Some issues that crop up in adolescence are:

Regression in basic training and 'pushing boundaries'
Lack of recall and easily distracted
Regression in toilet training, including marking.
Increased fearfulness and/or reactivity
Increased interest in other dogs including overexcitement
Bullying other dogs
Boisterousness
Chewing things

There are more I'm sure but these are some that are fairly common. 

Behaviour during adolescence can be really troublesome and tiring. It's a good idea to contact a trainer or behaviourist if you are struggling with your teenage dog. Some even do special classes for adolescents. Keeping up with training at this age is really important as it will shape the dog you have in the future. If you have multiple dogs it's good to remember that fair doesn't mean equal, so just because your older well behaved dog can have free reign in the house doesn't mean your teenager should. Instead crate time with a nice stuffed Kong or pizzle is a better option.

Here are some things you can do to help ease the stress of adolescence:


Physical exercise is very important, but avoid lots of ball throwing.
Mental exercise. Training, enrichment, and socialisation all help stimulate the mind.
Training. You might need to go back to basics with some dogs, but teaching anything will mould the brain to retain the things you want your dog to know.
Activities you can do together. Finding a hobby for you both can help with all of the above, as well as build your bond.
Management. If your dog likes to chew shoes, put them out of reach. Put up gates to stop your dog from making the 'wrong' decisions.
PLAY! Play with your dog! Retrieve, search, tug, training games, all build your bond and make it much more likely your teenager will listen to you.
REST! Probably the most important thing. Teenagers don't know when to chill out, so you as their owner will need to make sure they are getting enough down time to help their brains and bodies grow and process. A crate or other safe quiet space will encourage them to have some shut eye.

Remember, the more a dog does something and it works, the more they are likely to do it again and again. During adolescence their brain is malleable and changing, so limit the opportunities for your dog to make the wrong choice and heavily reward the right choice so this becomes the more likely option for them to choose in future. Think of it like creating a new path through an overgrown field. At first the path (new behaviour) is just a winding footpath through the undergrowth, but the more it gets used the more worn and accessible the path becomes and therefore gets used more, until ultimately it becomes a motorway! 

This is just a general outline of what to expect and some things that can help during your dog's teenage phase. Any other ideas and stories are very welcome! Let's help each other get through this with as few bruises and chewed up things as possible!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I'll start with what I'm going through with my Belgian Malinois teenager Bronte. I only got him at 7 months old so missed those early opportunities to mould a puppy. But luckily for me he was still a fairly blank slate, albeit one with teeth!

Things we struggled with initially:

Not liking the car and barking in the car
Recall, or lack of! And playing keep-away.
Not knowing his name
Chasing animals and vehicles
Chewing everything
biting!
Under socialised in terms of environments
total lack of any basic training
settling anywhere other than his crate
toilet training
lead walking

Most of these are now either greatly reduced or no longer a problem (woo hoo!)

But of course we still struggle with some things. Here is what we are currently working on:

Settling outside of the crate! This is an ongoing issue that is very slowly starting to change.
Recall. Great at home and in easy places, but around distractions we still go deaf.
Finding dogs REALLY exciting! He's super friendly and wants to play with everyone. This can show as excitement and frustration if he's on the lead.
5 second focus. He gets distracted very easily so we have to keep things short and sweet.
Chewing! Bedding in the crate has been reduced to bits of things that still have some vague structure, and a wool blanket which is the only thing he won't chew up. We have loads of chews and mainly he does chew them now.
Biting. This is now only when he's tired or over aroused.
Barking at visitors. This is only when the others bark thankfully, if they don't he doesn't either.
Barking at machinery. This is only really the tractor (we have fields that need cutting), and other garden machinery.
Chasing. Again much better than he used to be, but I have no doubt that if a dog or rabbit or horse was running he'd go off after them.

And now the good bits!

Retrieve. He LOVES to play, and we've worked hard on bringing the toy back. We are now working on control around toys and this will hopefully help transfer over to other distractions.
Agility. We go to agility training and he loves it. It's also good for training around other dogs doing exciting things!
Basic training. He now knows lots of cues and behaviours and we will definitely be building on this.
Loose lead walking. I don't generally ask for close heelwork so as long as the lead is loose I don't mind.
He can chill out in the car.
He's not aggressive at all and is good with dogs and people. In fact he's people neutral which is great, so we will work for him to be the same with dogs!
He comes to training and does some demo and stooge work with me.

Overall he's so much fun! Do I have pulling my hair out moments? Yes. Have I questioned getting him at times and if I can cope? Yes. But he's my fat headed loveable lump and I can't imagine life without my Bronte-saurus now, and I'm so glad he came into my life when he did.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I've only ever had girl dogs, and none have ever had any discernible teenage stage; I don't think that's a coincidence.
Testosterone (yes I know females have it too) has a lot to answer for, such as probably every war that's ever been fought.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I've only ever had girl dogs, and none have ever had any discernible teenage stage; I don't think that's a coincidence.
> Testosterone (yes I know females have it too) has a lot to answer for, such as probably every war that's ever been fought.


I was going to say the same. And many dogs start their obedience career at 6 months with no regression or bad behaviour. Mind you human teenagers vary enormously too.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

We had Amber first a lovely gentle puppy no teenage problems. If it had been the other way round and we had Dillon first who should have had an ASBO on him, we would never have, had Amber.


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## tristy (5 mo ago)

when people buy their pets they don't always take into account the class of dog they belong to. Very often they will say that they have a bad dog because they want the dog to fit in with their way of life with no concideration for the dog and it's ancestral calling. e.g. a labrador, gorgeous dogs, easy to train, very friendly . It's a retriever, a water dog with a thick double coat that will hold on to smells, so it requires a lot of grooming and a lot of exercise , take it to the beach, happy dog , happy owner.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> I've only ever had girl dogs, and none have ever had any discernible teenage stage; I don't think that's a coincidence.
> Testosterone (yes I know females have it too) has a lot to answer for, such as probably every war that's ever been fought.





Blitz said:


> I was going to say the same. And many dogs start their obedience career at 6 months with no regression or bad behaviour. Mind you human teenagers vary enormously too.





Happy Paws2 said:


> We had Amber first a lovely gentle puppy no teenage problems. If it had been the other way round and we had Dillon first who should have had an ASBO on him, we would never have, had Amber.


I do think bitches are easier teenagers. They can get hormonal around their season but I don't think they are quite as bad as boys in terms of behaviour. Saying that it was after her season and during adolescence that Nooka became dog reactive. Although being attacked at agility by the same dog a couple of times definitely affected her during that stage when their brains are still changing and moulding them into the dog they'll be in the future.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Ah, I think this is a great idea! Charlie has certainly humbled me, or at least I've forgotten a lot about previous pups, and he's been a bit of a shock 

Some of his issues stem from him getting a stubborn ear infection a few days after we brought him home, which meant 3 weeks of flushing his ears out twice a day and then antibiotic drops.
He obviously wasn't thrilled, but it was only at the end of treatment when he growled at me that I realised it had really upset him, and I think it ruined his trust in me quite a lot.
As a result of that, he would bite me quite nastily when I put a lead on, or took his harness off...wasn't too good with it going on, either.

Plus, stupid me, being used to being able to remove everything, and do basically whatever I wanted with all previous dogs, kept panicking and taking things from his mouth, and I assume I triggered resource guarding in him 🙈

Basically, me and my hands = BAD!

I've worked on it all a lot, and instead of pushing too many things while he's young, I'm picking my battles! I had a harness made for him with a clip on the neck so nothing goes over his head, and with the help of treats, he's improved a lot with that.
It does worry me that I might not be able to handle him easily if he got something else wrong, so I'm spending time everyday desensitising him to having his ears wiped, and general handling.

The resource guarding only appears to be with certain things that he's stolen, although I'm being very cautious that it doesn't escalate to anything else.
Thankfully, he's starting to lose interest in picking up EVERYTHING, which makes it a lot more manageable, and it's easier to get the object away from him now. He will swallow and eat *anything*, so it's been fairly stressful! But we're now able to walk past most rubbish on the ground with no issue and a loose lead, whereas before everything was a risk. I now recognise when he's likely to grab something and I can stop him.
The post was a bit of an issue to begin with, but I threw treats away from the door every time it turned up, and now he will sit and wait while I pick it up 😁

I think he's going to be a lot better when he has more impulse control, as he does sometimes nip when he's frustrated/overstimulated or tired.
Biting in general has reduced a lot, although still mouthy when playing, which I'm trying to stop. He will give me a really annoying, little goose nip when he's got zoomies/being a prat.

Recall is very sketchy, but he did develop very selective hearing when he turned 7 months.
Very strong prey driving/hunting instinct, but we'll do our best. He responds pretty well to a whistle 😊.

Haha, I'm making him sound absolutely hideous! 🤣 He really is very lovely and super friendly, he's just a little more challenging than I expected, and we have to be more polite with him, which is no bad thing, he deserves respect.
He's stopped chewing the lead 98% of the time, and doesn't destroy plants anymore.
I can throw chicken/cheese/etc on the ground, and he will remain in a sit and not grab it...so I've got a lot of hope for him, and I think everything will come together before long.
He even waves if you say hello and goodbye....I though a few cute tricks might save him 😉

I was really worried he wouldn't be able to carry on doing scent work because of his thieving nature, but he is such a natural, and while I have to be quick to pull him away sometimes, he hasn't done anything bad! I generally try to use equipment that I can hook onto something, or we make sure it's trapped.
Hoping he's going to do a little competition in the autumn, just a fun one and nothing serious, but I think he's got a very promising future in scent work/mantrailing.
He's incredibly focused when working, his whole body changes. He really does seem to love it, and he's found gun oil on some teeny items.

He's not what I expected at all, and he's a bit of a turd, but I think he's pretty brilliant in general!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Penny is not technically a teenager, but she's a young busy dog and I didn't get to raise her as a puppy so some stuff does overlap. (Maybe I need to do the phases of rescue dogs thread LOL.)

Anyway, this morning's struggle was learning to sleep in.
Normally she's used to getting up at 5 and by 5:30am we're out walking, breakfast at 6:30. 
But today is Saturday and I really didn't want to be up and moving by 5:30!
I don't mind that she had to pee at 6:00, I let her out, she peed and then we got back in bed and I tried to settle her back to rest mode which basically involves being as boring as possible while also fending off attempts to lick and paw at my face and neck, and chew on my hands  At least she has gotten more gentle about the pawing. I think we actually slept for about 20 minutes, but by 7 I gave up and got up.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sarah H said:


> I do think bitches are easier teenagers. *during that stage when their brains are still changing and moulding them into the dog they'll be in the future.*



I think Dillon's brain was a slept until he was nearly 4 when it was like a switch had been turned on and over night he became the most loving and fairly well behaved dog you could wish for.


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## janoid19 (9 mo ago)

What a great thread!

It's lovely to read everyones challenges and feel a bit less alone.

We got Link, a Working Cocker x Labrador at 8 weeks and he was a dream puppy. Great recall, learnt things really quickly, toilet trained pretty smoothly and slept ell in his crate apart from some early mornings.

As he got to around 6 months he started barking at nearly every noise in the house and recall went out the window as other dogs were loads more fun than us.

Then in the last month he got a big shock from a loud lorry going fast past us and since then is very wary of loud vehicles and big buses and lorries.

I've worked hard on sitting outside and clicking when cars and lorries go past and treating and he is improving. Also he seems to be more settled in the house now he is 9 months.

Recall is the next big challenge. We have been using a whistle and he responds well to that in the house, garden and on walks when there is no dogs. We use a long line for when dogs are around and if we are at a good distance he will come away relatively easily and carry on with the walk. He's just so friendly and wants to play with everyone so it'll be a big challenge 😂


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## kschinchillas (7 mo ago)

Unless I have forgotten about the bad bits, I don't think any of my dogs went through a teenage phase😀
I have mainly had females who settled down more around 12-18 months. Maybe it was because the older dogs kept the youngster in line. I doubt if it was my training skills😈


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

janoid19 said:


> What a great thread!
> 
> It's lovely to read everyones challenges and feel a bit less alone.
> 
> ...


Oh my he is bloody cute!


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## janoid19 (9 mo ago)

Boxer123 said:


> Oh my he is bloody cute!


Haha he is a handsome boy and uses it to his advantage constantly 😂


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

My biggest struggle with Tod (and he was practically a teenager when I got him) was other dogs. I think that because he’d maybe been left to his own devices his only entertainment had been the other dogs on the premises, so he thought every dog he saw was to be investigated. However far away.

It took a while to tune him in to a tug toy, so that I was the most entertaining thing on the block.


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## Gibworth (Mar 2, 2021)

We adopted Zeus at 8 months and he’s now 2, so he’s pretty much been a teenager the whole time we’ve had him!

He wasn’t well socialised before he came to us due to lockdowns and becoming too strong for his owners to walk. He’d been sold to an old couple as a Labrador but our DNA test suggested he is basically half retriever and half mastiff. Physically he’s like a Lab who spends all day in the gym and mentally he seems to have the sociability of a retriever but the guarding nature of a mastiff. 

It’s hard to unpick what behaviour is due to him being an adolescent male and what is because of his breeding and his first few months. He’s developed a lot over the last 18 months through a combination of training, him maturing, and having him neutered.

He is still very much a work in progress:

he can happily meet most dogs now but we’re continuing to work on him being more dog neutral
he no longer reacts severely to other males, but still has issues with brachy breeds
he’s now human-neutral but still gets overexcited when people show him attention
his recall isn’t yet reliable enough to have him off the long line but is good most of the time
he no longer immediately chases all small furries but has shown less progress with cats
“leave” and “drop” need a lot more work (he does fetch us the mail now though rather than eating it!)
his loose lead walking goes out of the window in new places
he is still very clingy but can now be left alone without howling
It’s fair to say that he’s still a handful but we no longer feel over-dogged and it now feels like we can live a normal (dog) life with him. 😊


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Gibworth said:


> he no longer reacts severely to other males, but still has issues with brachy breeds


He's a beaut! 

Charlie has had some negative reactions to French Bulldogs, particularly the one in his training class...I think it's the snorting...and to be fair, it doesn't look or move anything like a regular dog!
This one seems friendly enough, but its body language towards dogs looks aggressive, in my opinion...or could at least be very easily misunderstood by a dog, --- permanent whale eye staring, having to lunge because it's built like a box, no tail to wag, plus he's quite nippy.....it's a recipe for disaster!
There's no polite way I can his tell his owner why Charlie is iffy with him, either! 😂

I'm working on it, but to be honest, I can't honestly blame him 🤷‍♀️


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> My biggest struggle with Tod (and he was practically a teenager when I got him) was other dogs. I think that because he’d maybe been left to his own devices his only entertainment had been the other dogs on the premises, so he thought every dog he saw was to be investigated. However far away.
> 
> It took a while to tune him in to a tug toy, so that I was the most entertaining thing on the block.


Yes Bronte had the same sort of start with his first owner here in the UK. She had 9 other dogs and just left them to it. He hadn't had any proper training at all, just bumbled along with the others (despite her saying he was going to be her sports dog). So he just assumed he could say Hi and play with every dog he saw! We are slowly getting some progress, I suppose the good thing about it is that he's dog social and reads other dogs well.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Gemmaa said:


> Charlie has had some negative reactions to French Bulldogs,


For his entire life, I never could convince Bates that Frenchies and Boston Terriers were dogs. He would hear the snorting and go right into prey mode. I never did resolve it other than to just keep him away from anything that snorts and moves like a box on legs. 

Penny got unceremoniously marched home today because she found a turtle small enough to fit in her mouth and carry about, which shouldn't have been a problem except she decided to play keep away with it. I got her away from it once and thought I had carried her far enough away that she would find alternate trouble to get in to, nope, she bee-lined back to where she had left it and did the same thing. So I left her butt out there in the woods. I was walking up the driveway and she showed back up, turtle in tow, covered in slobber and with a small chunk of it's shell chipped off poor thing. 
So again tried to outsmart her with her keep away game, won, and this time I carried her all the way home inside the house. I went back to check on the turtle and it was gone. Hopefully by its own power not some other animal preying on it! 

On the upside though, she did recall away from chasing a deer which had me feeling pretty good for half a minute until the turtle saga began!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> For his entire life, I never could convince Bates that Frenchies and Boston Terriers were dogs. He would hear the snorting and go right into prey mode. I never did resolve it other than to just keep him away from anything that snorts and moves like a box on legs.
> 
> Penny got unceremoniously marched home today because she found a turtle small enough to fit in her mouth and carry about, which shouldn't have been a problem except she decided to play keep away with it. I got her away from it once and thought I had carried her far enough away that she would find alternate trouble to get in to, nope, she bee-lined back to where she had left it and did the same thing. So I left her butt out there in the woods. I was walking up the driveway and she showed back up, turtle in tow, covered in slobber and with a small chunk of it's shell chipped off poor thing.
> So again tried to outsmart her with her keep away game, won, and this time I carried her all the way home inside the house. I went back to check on the turtle and it was gone. Hopefully by its own power not some other animal preying on it!
> ...


That puts Charlies love of tissues and wipes into perspective! 🙈


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

This is my Marnie Moo, she is now 9mths old. I love her to bits. She has fitted in so well & the boys love her despite her bullying them 

We are training to compete in IGP. I've not done much formal training yet really. I've mainly only been playing & getting her to push me to interact with her which has been going really well. Only in the past week or so I've started to train foundations of more formal exercises such as heelwork, basic position & going to targets.

We've also started doing some tracking which is now going well. Initially she wasn't interested at all & just wanted to play with me. But she's now started to concentrate more & after attending a tracking workshop last week I have more of a plan in place. We've been doing a couple of very short tracks each day & it's amazing to see such a huge improvement.

We've also been working on her dog aggression tendencies. Not sure if this was due to me not really working around many dogs (as Kato was recovering from a fractured elbow I was limited where I could go with the dogs) & also due to her genetics (other dogs in the litter seem to display this as well). But this has been going great. Tbh I wasn't too fussed with it as I think it was just due to immaturity & her not being able to deal with big emotions. Now she's gotten older she much better & looks to me now to see if a situation need 'sorting', I can then tell her it's fine . We worked around other dogs at club at the weekend & then spent some time just sitting around with other dogs in close proximity. She was fab!

Good stuff:

engagement
focus
great drive
good grip on her toys
loves to
quick to learn
good at going from high to lower level arousal
great recall

And not so good:
- SHE IS SO BLOODY LOUD!!!!!

OMG, I know GSD's are gobby but she is off the scale. I met another of her sisters at the weekend & she is just as bad.

Pic of my gobby little witch


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> This is my Marnie Moo, she is now 9mths old. I love her to bits. She has fitted in so well & the boys love her despite her bullying them
> 
> We are training to compete in IGP. I've not done much formal training yet really. I've mainly only been playing & getting her to push me to interact with her which has been going really well. Only in the past week or so I've started to train foundations of more formal exercises such as heelwork, basic position & going to targets.
> 
> ...


Ha! Love her! She sounds like she's going to be a great allrounder. 
You did exactly the same as me in terms of formal training, in that it wasn't a priority and engagement and play were! We're also only now doing more obedience stuff. Yes he knows sit and down, but heelwork and proofing positions are only just things I'm thinking about now. What I wanted was to create a solid foundation of a relationship where he really wanted to be with me and play with me. We're now putting in control around toys, but I'm doing it slowly and mixing it up because I don't want to put too much control in and break the fun. Plus his attention span is like 5 seconds still so we don't ask for much for long! 
I wish Bronte had a good grip on his toys. He was AWFUL for regripping and chomping when I first got him. It's got a lot better and he no longer chomps when we're tugging (mostly) and he grips harder, but he's definitely still a chomper when he's carrying toys.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> Ha! Love her! She sounds like she's going to be a great allrounder.
> You did exactly the same as me in terms of formal training, in that it wasn't a priority and engagement and play were! We're also only now doing more obedience stuff. Yes he knows sit and down, but heelwork and proofing positions are only just things I'm thinking about now. What I wanted was to create a solid foundation of a relationship where he really wanted to be with me and play with me. We're now putting in control around toys, but I'm doing it slowly and mixing it up because I don't want to put too much control in and break the fun. Plus his attention span is like 5 seconds still so we don't ask for much for long!
> I wish Bronte had a good grip on his toys. He was AWFUL for regripping and chomping when I first got him. It's got a lot better and he no longer chomps when we're tugging (mostly) and he grips harder, but he's definitely still a chomper when he's carrying toys.


Yes, it's so important just getting to know each other & making all interactions exciting & enjoyable. I love the puppy & adolescence stages as it's all about figuring stuff out. I know it can be frustrating but it is still so much fun.

I have few rules at home so my dogs are pretty boisterous but they calm when told to. Honestly Marnie is feral & am only now am I starting to add more rules & control (& like you mixing it up so still keep it exciting). But I like the pushiness & I use it in training for my sport. It's not for everyone but I have different goals & I quite like unruly dogs 

Be great to keep this thread going to catch up on how everyone's doing.

My current aim is to get more tracking done atm as it's great for getting Marnie to concentrate & start to problem solve. Just that it;s so bone dry round here that finding any slightly decent ground isn't easy


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, it's so important just getting to know each other & making all interactions exciting & enjoyable. I love the puppy & adolescence stages as it's all about figuring stuff out. I know it can be frustrating but it is still so much fun.
> 
> I have few rules at home so my dogs are pretty boisterous but they calm when told to. Honestly Marnie is feral & am only now am I starting to add more rules & control (& like you mixing it up so still keep it exciting). But I like the pushiness & I use it in training for my sport. It's not for everyone but I have different goals & I quite like unruly dogs
> 
> ...


Yes my idea is to try and keep it going so people can see we all struggle with unruly teens at times!

Bronte got a bit too pushy (for me anyway) for a bit. He would literally run full pelt at you with his toy expecting you to be the brakes and stop him with your body rather than slow down himself! I got knocked over a couple of times and had some lovely bruises too, so I started to get him to slow down (by shouting lol) and I'd side-step at the last second so he couldn't hit me! Thing is he LOVES shoving toys at you so I still encourage it but he's learnt to check himself and doesn't launch himself with such force anymore. A Mali smashing into you then chomping at the toy (and your hand) wasn't the most fun! So I did need to get a hold on that purely for safety. 

Do you do tracking or mantrailing? Or both?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> Yes my idea is to try and keep it going so people can see we all struggle with unruly teens at times!
> 
> Bronte got a bit too pushy (for me anyway) for a bit. He would literally run full pelt at you with his toy expecting you to be the brakes and stop him with your body rather than slow down himself! I got knocked over a couple of times and had some lovely bruises too, so I started to get him to slow down (by shouting lol) and I'd side-step at the last second so he couldn't hit me! Thing is he LOVES shoving toys at you so I still encourage it but he's learnt to check himself and doesn't launch himself with such force anymore. A Mali smashing into you then chomping at the toy (and your hand) wasn't the most fun! So I did need to get a hold on that purely for safety.
> 
> Do you do tracking or mantrailing? Or both?


Hahahaha! That was Archer when he was a puppy. OMG, the injuries I had from him! As I've gotten older it hurts so much more so yes I whilst I encourage pushiness I also have to remember that I break more nowadays  

With Marnie I am concentrating on IGP tracking as that what we will be competing in. IMO it's too confusing to train different styles alongside (as mantriailing is almost the complete opposite of IGP tracking). I do both with the older dogs tho as they both learnt IGP tracking first then mantrialling & neither competes in IGP (Archer is now retired & Kato wasn't suitable due to ED).

Because I tracking is so precise (the dog has to go to every footstep at the the same speed & with a deep nose) that it's best to trait that fit then go to a more atural style of tracking later on.

Archer is now delighted that with mantrailling he can be as excited as he wants at the start. With IPGP tracking I was constantly working in a calm start with him. Now with Marnie I have implemented the controlled start early so I'm not constantly battling with her later on.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahaha! That was Archer when he was a puppy. OMG, the injuries I had from him! As I've gotten older it hurts so much more so yes I whilst I encourage pushiness I also have to remember that I break more nowadays
> 
> With Marnie I am concentrating on IGP tracking as that what we will be competing in. IMO it's too confusing to train different styles alongside (as mantriailing is almost the complete opposite of IGP tracking). I do both with the older dogs tho as they both learnt IGP tracking first then mantrialling & neither competes in IGP (Archer is now retired & Kato wasn't suitable due to ED).
> 
> ...


Yes I can see how the conflicting styles would confuse a teenage brain!
I found a video somewhere of Bronte's sire doing IGP tracking. I think it's when I was doing some breeder snooping lol. Both parents are IGP trained but they were bred as all rounders for pet and working homes, so he really should be able to do anything! But currently chewing cushions and beds is top priority, obviously.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> Yes I can see how the conflicting styles would confuse a teenage brain!
> I found a video somewhere of Bronte's sire doing IGP tracking. I think it's when I was doing some breeder snooping lol. Both parents are IGP trained but they were bred as all rounders for pet and working homes, so he really should be able to do anything! But currently chewing cushions and beds is top priority, obviously.


My dogs are all pets first & then sports dogs. We did some tracking again this morning with Marnie which was great & i was trying to train her to bark on command. You would think being the gobby little witch that she is it it would be easy .... it's not! When i want her to bark she's actually quiet  

But we did eventually have success so am going to do another couple of sessions this afternoon.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ritter is very pushy with toys too and will charge straight at you then keeps shoving it in your face to play. I personally dont want that much pushiness as it's not necessary for what I have planned for him. He has a tendency to nip my skin when he's doing it too which I dont appreciate.

None of my previous 2 male pups were as challenging as Ritter but tbh, by the time they were his current age (9 months) they were both neutered. I feel so behind with any formal training because he's been such a git bag with his general manners and behaviour that my focus has been there. He's such a hooligan with high drive and low self control that I can't help but think others think he's a major pain in the backside in classes. I often get comments from trainers like "come and stop with me, I'll sort you out" or "if you were mine you'd be getting told off" , almost like they think I dont discipline him and let him get away with crappy behaviour. I do feel quite judged. His breeder certainly thinks I'm too soft and using treats etc is not the way to go.

His Dad is a Deutsch Drahthaar (can only be bred under German rules once they've reached a certain standard in hunting, tracking etc) and his Grandma is the only dual field trial champion/show champion in the breed. His dam is now in Montana gaining her American hunting titles so he's from very strong, prey driven working lines. However, despite his excellent breeding, I've done naff all gundog wise even though that's why I got him. There's no point me training much until I can stop him and get him to come back. He'll currently chase anything that moves, and will run up to people and dogs given a chance so that's what I'm concentrating on at the moment. I dont need to work on getting his engine running, that's hardwired in him, but I do need to work on the control and getting him to engage with me rather than everything else.
After having really focused, well behaved dogs who I can take anywhere, Ritter is a huge culture shock!

I can't fault his drive, enthusiasm, character and temperament (his breeders say he's soft) but boy, his excitement levels and lack of impulse control is off the scale at the moment. Oh, and he's a bloody whinge bag.

However, looking back he's come so far already. He'll soon be starting adolescent and Good Citizen Bronze classes as well as continuing his generic obedience classes, mantrailing and ringcraft. I'm leaving gundog classes for now as I think at the moment, he can't cope in a group in that environment. I may consider 1-2-1 gundog though with a HPR specialist as spaniel and lab folk don't tend to understand them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Ritter is very pushy with toys too and will charge straight at you then keeps shoving it in your face to play. I personally dont want that much pushiness as it's not necessary for what I have planned for him. He has a tendency to nip my skin when he's doing it too which I dont appreciate.
> 
> None of my previous 2 male pups were as challenging as Ritter but tbh, by the time they were his current age (9 months) they were both neutered. I feel so behind with any formal training because he's been such a git bag with his general manners and behaviour that my focus has been there. He's such a hooligan with high drive and low self control that I can't help but think others think he's a major pain in the backside in classes. I often get comments from trainers like "come and stop with me, I'll sort you out" or "if you were mine you'd be getting told off" , almost like they think I dont discipline him and let him get away with crappy behaviour. I do feel quite judged. His breeder certainly thinks I'm too soft and using treats etc is not the way to go.
> 
> ...


He sounds exactly the sort of puppy I love! Drive & motivation are great & make training so much easier. Obviously at this age its learning how to channel it correctly which is just about you & your dog learning together. I honestly think you need to be easier on yourself & Ritter, you've done loads so far, much more that Marnie &I have done. No way would she cope with workshops atm so he's obviously doing really well.

Also there is no rush for formal training, enjoy him & your time together. Ignore people who tell you they would 'sort him out', IME those are the sort of people I would never leave my dog with. Some people thought I should do this with Marnie & her reactiveness with other dogs but that's not how I do things, especially when it comes to managing big emotions. Try not to compare him to your other dogs as he is different, you are different. I had a massive shock when I got Kato as I expected him to be like Archer but in reality he was the complete opposite!

It really did take us a long time to bond as he was very independent (& I wasn't in a good place at the time) & he was such a challenge that i had to rethink all my training plan. Now I see this as a good thing, I have learnt so much more from him having such a different dog rather than Archer mark 2.

The control part especially round other dogs & people is always a challenge for some dogs. With Marnie I have taught (as I did Archer & Kato) that movement (from wildlife running out) mean turn to me & get your toy. Obviously that is the end result & I start teaching it in steps. Also have been taking Marnie to my IGP club & playing/training round other dogs (again very short sessions so she doesn't lose focus) & also sitting around with other dogs close by so she learns to be calm around them. It is still a work in progress but she done so well in the short space of time. We are training with the view to compete in IGP but as I said I've only just started doing foundation work in a couple of exercises. Some people post videos on social media of dogs Marnie's age doing so much obedience but so what? Good for them but will that puppy still be doing the same when she is 2 or 3 or 5 yrs old or burnt out?

Edited to add: I remembered this great article by Denise Fenzi regarding puppies/young dogs which we should all bear in mind when we are struggling with certain behaviours 









It's a Puppy, Not a Problem


Left to their own devices, what do puppies like to do?They like to bark, play, run through the house (sometimes with muddy feet), jump on people, put things in their mouths and chew on them, eat tasty foods, explore, sniff things, dig holes in mud and sand and dirt, and a host of other things...




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie goes to a different training club for scent work, and they recently posted a video of a 20 week old pup who trains with them regularly, and it's gazing lovingly at the owner and ignoring distractions...It gave me a bit of a meltdown, as I can't use the path to our house anymore because our neighbours stupid cat has suddenly decided to live in a bush right next to it, and Charlie barks at it...loudly 🙈
....also....
...the other day he was possessed by an evil spirit...the bulk of all photos blurred because he was travelling faster than the speed of light most of the time.
Charlie, who won't go in the garden if it's raining, and isn't a huge fan of wet grass, decided that stagnant, possibly radioactive, possibly poisonous, black mud, is fine, and he belly flopped in it.
(legs aren't actually deformed, just couldn't sit still)









He looked like he'd been in an oil spill.
On the way back he was trying to play tug with his lead, and we couldn't cross the road for ages because he was still completely demented. It took 1hour 30minutes to get home.
It took 45 minutes to bath him, and I had to use their paddling pool and bribe him with cheese, because while toxic mud slop is FINE, clean water is apparently a torture device. Shampoo?! What kind of monster am I!?
During those 45 minutes he had *extreme* zoomies, and it probably *only* took 45 minutes because he was exhausted, and has also probably strained a muscle because he's got a little limp sometimes...although it isn't stopping him!
He then got a second wind...
















🤨
The ridiculous thing is, he was so quiet, sweet and well behaved yesterday, we were WORRIED about him! And when he turned back into a little turd, we were happy! 

I can also only take him to a particular pet shop on a Saturday, because the owner is a trainer and she always makes me feel like I've got an out of control maniac (which is a little bit true), she would go mad if she saw him with the fun staff 

Currently debating whether to take him to Dogfest, or if it'll be full of French Bulldogs and we'll be asked to leave 😚

I think you should all have a pat on the back...I'm having circles run around me, by something based loosely on a Jack Russell!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hahahahaha! @Gemmaa , he sounds like so much fun 

One thing I have learnt is not to compare, all dogs are different. Enjoy him, he sounds amazing & am sure you will have lots of adventures together


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I have now had Ava for 6 months and it is her 1st birthday next week. She is doing very well in some areas - she is learning calm at home and not to just shout at me when I am on a work call etc. We have also been doing 1-2-1 gundog training which she loves.

BUT I still really struggle with her outside - she finds it so hard to disengage from the environment and to focus on me. From speaking to some fellow pointer owners on various FB groups this seems to be a common theme, and of course I missed out on the tiny puppy stage with her. She is an awesome dog though, and she loves to work - I just need to learn how to harness that a bit better.

That said, she is in season now AND has sliced one of her paw pads and so is currently a nightmare. Poor girl is not coping very well with her season and her confidence has taken a bit of a beating so she is quite unsettled and reactive. She has also got very demanding and barks which I am hoping will pass once her hormones settle down.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Well, I have now had Ava for 6 months and it is her 1st birthday next week. She is doing very well in some areas - she is learning calm at home and not to just shout at me when I am on a work call etc. We have also been doing 1-2-1 gundog training which she loves.
> 
> BUT I still really struggle with her outside - she finds it so hard to disengage from the environment and to focus on me. From speaking to some fellow pointer owners on various FB groups this seems to be a common theme, and of course I missed out on the tiny puppy stage with her. She is an awesome dog though, and she loves to work - I just need to learn how to harness that a bit better.
> 
> That said, she is in season now AND has sliced one of her paw pads and so is currently a nightmare. Poor girl is not coping very well with her season and her confidence has taken a bit of a beating so she is quite unsettled and reactive. She has also got very demanding and barks which I am hoping will pass once her hormones settle down.


Hope things settled down soon for her. I must admit am dreading Marnie's season. With 2 entire males I am going to have to very careful with management. One of her sister's started her season yesterday so hopefully it won't be too long. I just want to get the first one over & done with. 

Great that training is going well with her. I wish Manie didn't 'shout'' at me so much. She has to go in her kennel in the morning as she is far too loud in the house & interrupts my meetings


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Great that training is going well with her. I wish Manie didn't 'shout'' at me so much. She has to go in her kennel in the morning as she is far too loud in the house & interrupts my meetings


I have been doing a lot of 'presence doesn't mean access' training with Ava and she was getting much better at being able to settle and not just shout at me. Of course that has all gone out of the window now - she will just stand and bark at me, but she doesn't even know why she is barking...
I can't wait t get her spayed! I am supposed to have her spayed after her first season but the rescue said I could let her have 2 as she is a bigger dog. But assuming she will be mature at 18 months, if I have her spayed after this season she will be 15 months. Currently weighing up the risks of spaying her before she is fully mature with the benefits to her of not having to go through this again...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> I have been doing a lot of 'presence doesn't mean access' training with Ava and she was getting much better at being able to settle and not just shout at me. Of course that has all gone out of the window now - she will just stand and bark at me, but she doesn't even know why she is barking...
> I can't wait t get her spayed! I am supposed to have her spayed after her first season but the rescue said I could let her have 2 as she is a bigger dog. But assuming she will be mature at 18 months, if I have her spayed after this season she will be 15 months. Currently weighing up the risks of spaying her before she is fully mature with the benefits to her of not having to go through this again...


Hahahaha, Marnie loves to bark. In the morning she stands on top of her crate to bark at us all .... it is so annoying but also very funny. Tbh I tried to stop her but then she ends up annoying the boys too much so easier just to let her do it & get all her excitement out that way 

In fact I was thinking this morning how I love that all my dogs are so excited to wake up & get going with the day, I need to be more like this some days 

Am thinking maybe 2 seasons with Marnie. Most GSD's seem to be slow at maturing. Kato is 2 soon & even in the past 6mths I have seen a difference in him physically & mentally so am assuming the same for Marnie. 

Bearing in mind she should be coming in to season soon we are back to doing more playing & a bit of tracking. I just want to make sure I'm not pushing her too much at this time. She seems her usual gobby self, a but more hyper in some ways. She takes it out on poor Kato & is always trying to hump him when their play gets too OTT so I have to rescue him from the nasty little witch


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Thought I'd put an update on progress. Although Bronte doesn't want to be too far from you his recall can be quite hit and miss depending on the day and his mood! And he wants to go and say Hi to every dog so I keep him on lead unless I know the area is safe. So we're working on check ins while on walks so he doesn't go off on autopilot forgetting I exist! Obviously we do this in easy areas with few distractions so we can build solid foundations to build on.
This video is from about a month ago but is in the same place as the pics I took today. It's not an exciting video I'm afraid!




And the pics - walking away... and coming back!
















We've not worked much on heel work, although I have done some basic LLW so I don't get dragged along and he's pretty good at that. If he chooses to walk to heel he gets a high rate of reinforcement, so it's starting to become a behaviour he's picking more and more often. I will eventually add a cue word to it but it's not something I'm specifically choosing to work on. BUT here he is choosing to walk next to me off lead.









And here doing some LLW, just checking in with me to make sure I've noticed he's not pulling me along 😂 









He's also doing better chilling out in the front room, so we are getting progress there too. Though I think it will be a good while before he can be out of the crate unsupervised for any length of time. 

Anyway, anyone else want to update with progress or even backward steps that would be great to hear.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Sarah H, he is so handsome  Looks like he's doing really well. I need to take Marnie out for walks more on her onw but I just don't have time. Initially the plan was to take Archer & Kato out together then me & Marnie but then Kato fractured his elbow & plans had to change. Kato can't go out with either of the other dogs as I can't risk him running round like a nutter & messing up his leg. The one good thing about taking Marnie out with Archer is she learns from him that ifwe see an animal out (deer, hare, fox etc) then she needs to run to me to get a reward. Archer is such a great teacher for this as he is so spot on so maybe this would have been more difficult had we been out on our own.

She is doing so well with training, she getting more & more pushy to train which is great usually but atm I've done my back in so everything I wanted regarding her being like this is currently working against me ..... but tbh I'll take the pain 

One thing I've noticed that definitely needs to be addressed is her building aggression around food. All the dogs eat in the same room (obviously building to this with new dogs/puppies) & have learnt from an early age not to steal from each other. They have always been fine but I've noticed lately that if either Archer or Kato move (not even towards Marnie) then she will lunge at them teeth bared & looking quite fierce. Neither of the boys seems bothered tbh but I think this behaviour is growing with her so I need to address this before it gets out of hand.

She has also started to do this with me if either if the boys come over for a cuddle, even if she's not near me so definitely a resource guarding issue. Am not worried about it as I think I will be fine managing it but something she needs to learn now that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I've pulled both my hamstrings quite badly so I'm finding an adolescent far more challenging at the moment. Fortunately friends have been helping out and this morning somebody picked us up to take us to the football field (I can't currently drive). All was quiet so because he hasnt had chance to stretch his legs properly since Wednesday, I foolishly decided to let him off lead. All was well, he kept checking in with me, until he found a football which was evidently of high value to him, and I couldn't get him back. There was no way he was coming anywhere near me or my friend as he knew what was going to happen. We tried every trick in the book - pretending to find something interesting on the floor, having a good game with a toy, hoping he'd join in, throwing treats around, using a squeaker etc but nothing worked. Cue this moment for other off lead dogs to enter the field, kids to scooter past, people jogging - all things which are highly likely to trigger his movement reactivity. Thankfully he was too interested in the football. Our saving grace was when he stopped to have a poo and dropped the ball. I just managed to grab his harness before he sidestepped me to sod off again. Then we had a few minutes where he was high as a kite on adrenalin.

I'm really trying to work on him engaging with me but he's so overstimulated by the environment that I'm currently finding it impossible. I feel like we cant get on with any gundog training because of it. How is he ever going to hunt and retrieve if he can't be trusted off lead? It must be able to be done because plenty of people have high drive hunting dogs and have mostly full control.

I'm also struggling, and getting despondent, trying to find trainers that understand how a HPR works, and give me any really useful advice on how to deal with our issues. It seems most trainers really don't have that much in their toolbox, their advice is the same regardless of breed. Yes, I know I need to be more interesting than anything else but when the environment trumps everything I try, what else do I do?

Everything else is going great, he's just achieved his UKTDA Foundation Tracking Dog qualification, his Scentwork UK stuff is going really well, he's smashing mantrailing and he's slowly learning that quiet patience gets you what you want, not lunging and barking with frustration. I just cannot trust him off the lead because of his desire to chase everything that moves and that's a big sticking point.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm really trying to work on him engaging with me but he's so overstimulated by the environment that I'm currently finding it impossible. I feel like we cant get on with any gundog training because of it. How is he ever going to hunt and retrieve if he can't be trusted off lead? It must be able to be done because plenty of people have high drive hunting dogs and have mostly full control.
> 
> I'm also struggling, and getting despondent, trying to find trainers that understand how a HPR works, and give me any really useful advice on how to deal with our issues. It seems most trainers really don't have that much in their toolbox, their advice is the same regardless of breed. Yes, I know I need to be more interesting than anything else but when the environment trumps everything I try, what else do I do?


It really could have been me writing this! I don't have much to offer in terms of words of wisdom, but I can definitely sympathise and although I know that you shouldn't use breed stereotypes etc., etc., etc., it does seem to be a very common problem with pointers. One person I 'met' through a fb group said she has had and worked with dogs for 26 years and the pointer was the first dog she has met who made her feel truly irrelevant, and I can definitely relate to that. 
Around the home Ava is great, but as soon as we get outside she goes way over threshold, cannot disengage from the environment and I pretty much cease to exist for her.

I have been doing lots of work on disengagement with Ava - mostly taking her to places like Tesco car park in the evenings when it's quiet and just doing lots of walking in circles/figure of eight etc. to encourage her to disengage from the environment. It is very dull and progress will be slow but hopefully it might help.

The other thing I have found that helps is finding a good gundog trainer - she is actually much better when we are training because she gets that outlet for hunting and retrieving but I also have some sort of control. Although we are getting to the stage where we will be expected to work off lead which could be a disaster....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Leanne77 & @Dimwit Denise Fenzi discusses dogs who are very environmentally aware in one of her books (I can't remember which one atm but will find it). She also dismisses the idea that you have to be more exciting than the environment as you will never win. Instead it's about giving the dog very clear structure & cues as to when they are 'working' & what is free time.

Kato was very environmentally aware & even in my back garden he would find a bird to look at instead of me so I started thinking of cues & how I would use them better. Same with Marnie, over the park initially I wasn't clear enough in what was free time & what was working time so now I use a completely different set up (& collar) so she knows what is expected.

Edited to add book title: *Dog Sport Skills, Book 4: Focus and Engage! *









The Many Faces of Focus


Focus is a multi-faceted concept and the more I explore it the more I find to explore even further.




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com













Is movement or stillness the solution? - Denise Fenzi's Blog


I’m a huge fan of allowing a dog to take in an area before you begin to train. This is particularly true if your dog tends toward a more nervous temperament or if they are easily overwhelmed by the world. So how, exactly, do you allow your dog to take in the training environment? To […]




denisefenzi.com


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Interesting articles Natasha, thanks. You see, that's the type of trainer we need, somebody to really see the dog and what's going on beneath the surface. Even when I'm playing tug.with Ritter, I can see his eyes scanning around, trying to spot other things. 

I have found though that when mantrailing, he's got great task focus, to the point he can easily trail past temptations like ducks. He's definitely a dog that benefits from stillness too to calm down. We've been doing mat work to help him calm down and disengage from other dogs when they're working.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Interesting articles Natasha, thanks. You see, that's the type of trainer we need, somebody to really see the dog and what's going on beneath the surface. Even when I'm playing tug.with Ritter, I can see his eyes scanning around, trying to spot other things.
> 
> I have found though that when mantrailing, he's got great task focus, to the point he can easily trail past temptations like ducks. He's definitely a dog that benefits from stillness too to calm down. We've been doing mat work to help him calm down and disengage from other dogs when they're working.


I think it's 'just' gettting to understand your dog & what motivates him/her. I say just because it sounds so simple but in reality isn't with some dogs.

With Kato it really took over a year. Kato wasn't OTT but just indifferent. He could't give atoss about training or playing or anything. He wanted to do his thing or nothing. People told me to make everything come through me ; food, freedom, etc. no time outside his kennel unless he was training, almost solitary confinement. But that didn't sit right with me. I remember reading something from Denise Fenzi again & she said she didn't want a captive in training but a willing participant (or words to that effect) & that was so spot on. So I ignored people & did what I thought best which was backing off & not being so controlling with him.

In that time we didn't do any training as such but playing/having fun together & investigating the environment he found fascinating (splashing in puddles, running through long grass, etc) this all helped in our relationship but in some ways it was difficult for me not to compare as my friend with a dog a similar age was almost doing IGP 1 rounds with her dog when Kato & I were no where near.

But I stopped doing this, it didn't help. I saw a Finnish trainer for a while who was great at understanding the dogs emotions & using that to drive training. He also said that our expectations as handlers could ruin the relationship with our dogs as we were always looking to the future of what we wanted for them when in reality we should just enjoy them, live in the moment with & stop with the expectation & disappointment that we weren't achieving the goals we had set ourselves. It made such a difference.He also showed me videos of Kato & I & where I missed moments with Kato being engaged as they were so subtle. Archer is all about big displays but Kato is alot more subdued

At 18mths I finally had a better understanding of Kato, he had started playing with me (really committed) & did so when I wanted him to rather than when he decided, he also wanted to train & started pushing me to do things, it was such a difference & I ws shocked at how quickly things had started to come together .... then he fractured his elbow!


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

With Ava I think a lot of it is her lacking in confidence and being worried about getting things wrong. She is definitely focussed on the environment and when she does engage and focus she’s brilliant. It’s just inconsistent. I have also realised that I can’t do too many repetitions as she then switches off. I don’t think it’s just that she’s bored - I think she just gets confused that she’s not doing it right and so she shuts down. She is very sensitive but not particularly tenacious and if she doesn’t know what she is supposed to do or it’s ‘too hard’ she just stops trying.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> With Ava I think a lot of it is her lacking in confidence and being worried about getting things wrong. She is definitely focussed on the environment and when she does engage and focus she’s brilliant. It’s just inconsistent. I have also realised that I can’t do too many repetitions as she then switches off. I don’t think it’s just that she’s bored - I think she just gets confused that she’s not doing it right and so she shuts down. She is very sensitive but not particularly tenacious and if she doesn’t know what she is supposed to do or it’s ‘too hard’ she just stops trying.


Kato used to switch off in training, mainly because he wasn't fussed with it. Even now if he gets it wrong he almost gives up but now we play 'sulky puppy' where I tease him & grab his muzzle ... he finds this hilarious for some reason but it works at getting him back to the exercise. I have to be really mindful of how I get him to try harder or do something slightly different. Archer & Marnie are so different & so much easier


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

8 month old Charlie is still quite a....character.
We've now taken the chicken wire off the borders as he can jump over it, so far he hasn't damaged any plants...well, a few stems have been removed, but he's mostly sniffing and burying stuff!









We have to remove his bedding because he eats it 
He regressed a bit the other day, and was really naughty with guarding a few things he picked up on walks, and ate a balloon 🤨
I now ask him to touch my hand or totally distract him if he's stolen something, I think I've been making a bit of a big deal of immediately trying to get his stolen goods from him, and that's partly why he's chewing his towels.
We're back on track now, he's been listening to "leave it" and hasn't picked anything up for a few days...and the balloon came out the other end!

He hasn't been training for ages because I couldn't shake covid for a few weeks, and now his trainer is on holiday, and then there's a dog show at the grounds, so he doesn't go back until October!
Also had to stay away from OH because his gran is in hospital, and his brother came over from Canada so that they could go and see her....so as well as no training, he hasn't been anywhere interesting.
When Charlie met his brother, he was being an absolute brat. Really hyper, jumpy and bitey. Very embarrassing.
I don't like his stupid bite zoomies, but am now bringing a toy on his walks so that he can bite that and not my hands! Then I can get him sitting and listening again.

OH made it back on Saturday, so we took Charlie to Dogfest....and he was.....really good!!!!!!! Even with French Bulldogs!
It was very loud, and very crowded, but he was brilliant, didn't let me down at all.
He did a hay bale race and managed to ignore everything, even dogs running next to him!
Although, when we got home he barked at the first dog he saw, and the next day he barked at my hideous neighbours dogs (few days after they'd been talking about horrible yappy Jack Russell's ) and then barked at a few more dogs!
I was really regretting taking him! But then we saw some other dogs, and I managed to get him sitting and being good, and he's acting normally again, which is a relief!

He's being very trying, but is mostly on the right track...I think! 😂
Definitely not going to miss this stage!
....although I look at his silly face, and can forgive him quite a lot!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

What really lovely pics @Gemmaa  What a superstar at Dog Fest, that must have been quite a lot for him to take in so great news that he did so well

I've not done much with Marnie this week as I've hurt my back again so am trying to take things easy. Luckily I can still take the dogs out for a walk tho, it would be bloody chaos if I couldn't!

But we have been working on our domestics & stopping her guarding me & her food from the boys. It was very difficult for her at first, she gets so angry so quickly but she was promptly removed from the sofa when she tried to stop Archer having a cuddle the other night then only let back up if she sat to one side. She then tried to do her 'I'm only a puppy' routine where she goes all submissive then wriggles her way to where she wants to go which works with the boys but not with me 

Anyway it seems to be working. Tonight she took her chew away from the boys & ther was no growling or lunging when they moved around after finishing there's which was great as I was in so much pain that I really wasn't in the mood for any silliness


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

@Gemmaa sounds like he did amazingly well! And he's such a cutie to boot. Sometimes busy environments are helpful because there's so much going on they can't just focus on one thing and react to it, so they end up focusing on you instead! Also I hope you are feeling better after Covid. 

@Cleo38 being forced to work at home on basic pet dog stuff can be a blessing in disguise. I know I'm guilty of trying to work on more complicated training when actually spending some time working on domestic issues is just as beneficial, if not more when it comes to actually living with them! I got a delivery of some more long lasting chews and Bronte was VERY excited so I gave him one to have while I sorted them out and took labels off. I realised his still had the string attached and went to quickly snip it off and got growled at! He's never growled at me before (only in play), usually he's trying to get me to hold them for him or chew the bloody things on my lap! So I got a couple of others and showed him I wasn't there to steal it and did some swapping (snipped the label off) and just sat with him as he chewed. I think it was just a bit of over excitement and he didn't really know what to do with himself and the massive buffalo horn which was obviously highly valued. Surprise surprise 5 mins later he was happily shoving it onto my lap.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Ooh, he just traded a bamboo stick - which he's currently obsessed with, for a fish cube!
I feel I can now overlook the fact that he's just pulled two plants out of a pot and shredded them - which he'd stopped doing a few months ago!
Then dug a hole in the remains of my poor grass, barked at a stone for a while, dug a bit more, and is now sunning himself on the step, surveying his handywork!
😬


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I was wondering if I should start taking Ritter to more busy places. I tend to avoid them because of the way he behaves, I didnt want to put him into a meltdown but I can see how it could be beneficial. I might try some town centres.

I've been out of action for the past 10 days due to badly pulling both hamstrings so I've not been able to walk Ritter and I haven't been able to drive him to his classes, so he's been a bit of a handful. I've done my best taking him for a play on a quiet piece of grass, practicing things at home but he really needs to stretch his legs. I can't manage him on anything but his headcollar as he pulls too much which is a killer on my legs. Today has been the first day we've gone a short walk, coupled with play and he's been on a long line. 
He made some good choices and wasn't as crazy as I was expecting. There were 2 occasions where he was torn between attempting to go over to dogs, and engaging with me. You could see his brain whirring but he chose me both times and was rewarded with a game.
He's also made great progress with settling in a class environment, he will now offer a settle, rocked over on a hip and nicely relaxed. I still need to treat him alot for it but comments have been made about how his behaviour has improved so I think we're getting there slowly.

There are still times when I consider sending him back because my Mum and Nephew struggle to deal with him and I didn't think I was signing up for such an extreme personality but then I take a step back and realise how far he's actually come and how much potential he's got and think I could never give him up.
His lack of recall is a real sticking point at the moment though as being able to offer a dog freedom to run and explore is really important to me.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> I was wondering if I should start taking Ritter to more busy places. I tend to avoid them because of the way he behaves, I didnt want to put him into a meltdown but I can see how it could be beneficial. I might try some town centres.
> 
> I've been out of action for the past 10 days due to badly pulling both hamstrings so I've not been able to walk Ritter and I haven't been able to drive him to his classes, so he's been a bit of a handful. I've done my best taking him for a play on a quiet piece of grass, practicing things at home but he really needs to stretch his legs. I can't manage him on anything but his headcollar as he pulls too much which is a killer on my legs. Today has been the first day we've gone a short walk, coupled with play and he's been on a long line.
> He made some good choices and wasn't as crazy as I was expecting. There were 2 occasions where he was torn between attempting to go over to dogs, and engaging with me. You could see his brain whirring but he chose me both times and was rewarded with a game.
> ...


I really recommend busy places, I always regret not doing it with previous dogs. We took Charlie into town yesterday and he walked down a travelator. He had wait with me outside a fairly busy shop for a while & he was able to sit and be quite calm.
But then we also managed to sneak him into a Beagle/Beagle cross play group, when we got back he basically slept all day, and I think it was the first time in the last 6 months where I haven't been bitten!  
He even came and checked in with us sometimes! I mean, I daren't let him off lead in public yet because he would absolutely be 'that' dog...but these little outings give me glimmers of hope.
I always expect him to be total swine but he can be sensible when he needs to.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> @Gemmaa sounds like he did amazingly well! And he's such a cutie to boot. Sometimes busy environments are helpful because there's so much going on they can't just focus on one thing and react to it, so they end up focusing on you instead! Also I hope you are feeling better after Covid.
> 
> @Cleo38 being forced to work at home on basic pet dog stuff can be a blessing in disguise. I know I'm guilty of trying to work on more complicated training when actually spending some time working on domestic issues is just as beneficial, if not more when it comes to actually living with them! I got a delivery of some more long lasting chews and Bronte was VERY excited so I gave him one to have while I sorted them out and took labels off. I realised his still had the string attached and went to quickly snip it off and got growled at! He's never growled at me before (only in play), usually he's trying to get me to hold them for him or chew the bloody things on my lap! So I got a couple of others and showed him I wasn't there to steal it and did some swapping (snipped the label off) and just sat with him as he chewed. I think it was just a bit of over excitement and he didn't really know what to do with himself and the massive buffalo horn which was obviously highly valued. Surprise surprise 5 mins later he was happily shoving it onto my lap.


She is such a quick learner! Honestly she constantly surprises me. The past few days I've just changed where she eats her meal & put her nearer the doorway (she doesn't want to eat away from the boys) but giving her this extra space has made so much of a difference. She now feel she can move herself away if she wants which she does do occasionally. She's absolutely fine with me going near her & it's not an issue but I don't want it to become a habit with the boys as it's not fair on them.

Guarding me is going well although she's not happy about this ... she does make me laugh as she gets so angry so quickly at times! It's very much a work in progress & now every time she goes to jump in she looks at me is is told to 'settle' which she does. She still will try & squeeze in between me & Kato or Archer tho despite being next to me on the sofa. She will try all her best moves to do this which is hilarious to see; she will go from angry to submissive so quickly if she feels that one approach isn't working, she's not stupid!

We've had to stop with our tracking as I can't bend down to put food/articles down so instead we've been concentrating on our blind search (IGP exercise where the dog runs round a set number of blinds to find the helper) & making sure she's nice & tight to the blind. She is so bloody quick but very accurate so am so pleased with that. She really is a very full on but very funny dog. She's very much like Archer as a pup; everything at 150mph but also on full volume


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## Tangerinerose (Jan 10, 2021)

Sage is one and a half now and definitely still a learning curve working on her training.

In many ways she’s great , she’s pretty bombproof out and about and pretty chilled in the house she’s really improved her settling and occupying herself.

We’re having some issues with separation anxiety (have heard this is common with TT’s) but for some reason she is absolutely fine being left in the car so we’re able to still run errands etc while we build up her time alone in the house, it’s slow going but can’t be helped. Her other main problem is having the attention span of a gnat, her recall is great until she sees another dog, person , bird , plastic bag etc etc then I may as well cease to exist , she’s back on the long line now unless we’re in a secure area but really trying to work on her focus and actually listening - I’m sure we’ll get there but seem to have hit a brick wall with this with no progress recently.

overall she’s a lovely little dog but still got a long way to go with her training  lovely to read what everyone else is up to and knowing everyone has things to work on


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

I tried an experiment with Ava the other day after something that @Cleo38 said about her dogs really pushing her to train. I took Ava out and she was being an idiot (we are now very much in squirrel season), so I walked her in endless zig-zags and figure of eights. Eventually she realised she wasn't going to get to chase the squirrels and looked over to me. Usually this is where I would praise her and try to get her to interact with me, but this time I thought 'why should I reward a half-hearted interaction', so I didn't immediately reward her - I waited and then she did offer actual, proper engagement so we did a little bit of work and then went home.
I think, for her, she has twigged that I am always there, and a bit desperate so she can check out everything else and then come to me as a last resort, but when I play hard to get, she is much more engaged and starts to push me to interact with her.
We had gundog training today for the first time in a month (she was in season and injured her leg) and she was brilliant - so much more switched on and focused (for her - still the attention span of a gnat). But I think that my upping the criteria and not rewarding her for mediocrity has really helped and today in our breaks where instructor was talking about what we were going to do next, Ava was pestering me and pushing me to do something with her, whereas usually she would be digging holes in the field, or scanning the horizon for birds etc.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Took Marnie over to the barn next door today as they are sorting out the spuds so there's lots going on with farm vehicles, grading machines, workers, lots of loud noises, etc.

I asked the manager (as I always do) & he's always great. We stand to one side & I just let her watch what was going on. She really wasn't fussed at all. I expected her to be quite interested or even a bit worried so I planned how we could move away but nope .... she looked then looked at me for actreat, looked again then started trying to get me to play .... result!

We went over again this evening as they were finishing off & the same. A couple of the workers came over to say hello to her & she loved the attention. We stayed for a bit, she had a sniff round the machinery (which was all switched off at this point) then went home.

So pleased with this, she's a bit more sensitive than the boys at times but not phased at all by this.


Dimwit said:


> I tried an experiment with Ava the other day after something that @Cleo38 said about her dogs really pushing her to train. I took Ava out and she was being an idiot (we are now very much in squirrel season), so I walked her in endless zig-zags and figure of eights. Eventually she realised she wasn't going to get to chase the squirrels and looked over to me. Usually this is where I would praise her and try to get her to interact with me, but this time I thought 'why should I reward a half-hearted interaction', so I didn't immediately reward her - I waited and then she did offer actual, proper engagement so we did a little bit of work and then went home.
> I think, for her, she has twigged that I am always there, and a bit desperate so she can check out everything else and then come to me as a last resort, but when I play hard to get, she is much more engaged and starts to push me to interact with her.
> We had gundog training today for the first time in a month (she was in season and injured her leg) and she was brilliant - so much more switched on and focused (for her - still the attention span of a gnat). But I think that my upping the criteria and not rewarding her for mediocrity has really helped and today in our breaks where instructor was talking about what we were going to do next, Ava was pestering me and pushing me to do something with her, whereas usually she would be digging holes in the field, or scanning the horizon for birds etc.


That's really interesting to hear ... & really great! I think you are spot on with them realising you are always there for them. Kato's breeder told me not to beg him for attention or be really grateful if he graced me with a look (!) but I was. I was so desperate for him to play with me or interact that it actually worked against me & like you say I was rewarding rubbish.

So great when you get that start of engagement & can see in that moment them recognising your value


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Life with teen Charlie looks a lot like this...

















😬
He is such a thief at the moment!!
But he did recall, and redeemed himself a little bit....until he ran off with OH!









Might tie him to a bench somewhere 🤔


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> That's really interesting to hear ... & really great! I think you are spot on with them realising you are always there for them. Kato's breeder told me not to beg him for attention or be really grateful if he graced me with a look (!) but I was. I was so desperate for him to play with me or interact that it actually worked against me & like you say I was rewarding rubbish.
> 
> So great when you get that start of engagement & can see in that moment them recognising your value


Yes, I have been so desperate for her to interact with me that I had been rewarding anything. I am learning that Ava doesn't really do subtlety at the moment and so if I am not very precise in what I ask for and reward she ends up thinking that any attempt is good enough and that she won't be punished for doing something wrong but will get lots of chances to get it right.
So now I am being much tougher with her in training - we have been struggling with sit stays as she always breaks after 20 seconds - so instead of keeping trying now as soon as she breaks a sit the treats go away and we end the session. It has really sharpened her up as she seems to be a dog who needs a very clear sign that she got something wrong.

It's so interesting getting know her and how her brain works!



Gemmaa said:


> Might tie him to a bench somewhere 🤔


Ava is also a keen gardener and I often tell her that we are going to go and find her forever lamp post.

She has taken to bringing me the tv remote whenever I am working in my office upstairs - but with a new twist she recently started turning the tv on so I hear voices from my living room, go to investigate and find she has managed to start watching some random thing on Netflix


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Dogs knowing that you are always a part of the picture and therefore are boring (lol) is one of the reason why us dog trainers always seem to get dogs working hard for us and giving us loads of attention when owners struggle - we are fun and novel, and whenever they see us they get lots of fun rewards! Owners always say how they wish their dog would work as well with them, or focus as well with them, and I tell them it's because when they see us we only give them awesome good stuff so they are super excited to see us and work with us! It's great because when you then teach the owners the mechanics and delivery skills that we use the excitement transfers over to them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marnie's crate ... the third one she has destroyed


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

OMG @Cleo38, that's insane! My ex had a GSP who destroyed crates like that, she could never be left at home alone cos she'd escape the crate then destroy the kitchen.

I hired a new secure field for Ritter today, one without any toys or frills, just 3 acres of open space with a wooded area and a small area of long grass/wildflowers which was good for hunting for his toy.

It was great to see him able to fully stretch his legs, run as fast as he likes and leap over vegetation, logs etc amongst the trees, something he can never get to do on a long line. I pretty much left him to his own devices but he engaged with me well when I asked for it, and did lots of check ins.
My Mum came with me and she couldn't believe how fast he was and how much he enjoyed himself as she's never seen him doing anything other than pulling me about on a lead of some description and acting like a dick.

I'm aiming for hiring a field at least once a month and I'm going to try various ones.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> OMG @Cleo38, that's insane! My ex had a GSP who destroyed crates like that, she could never be left at home alone cos she'd escape the crate then destroy the kitchen.
> 
> I hired a new secure field for Ritter today, one without any toys or frills, just 3 acres of open space with a wooded area and a small area of long grass/wildflowers which was good for hunting for his toy.
> 
> ...


That's great! Saw your pics on FB it looked a really interesting space, far more exciting than simply a field as many are. He looked like he really enjoyed himself .... & he has the longest legs!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

How's everyone doing with their pupsters? I've been concentrating on playing & engagement still but in various locations. Marnie is so switched on almost straight away now. She has a quick glance round but then pushes me to train which is exactly what I want. We were at the local park yesterday & a football match was on, other dogs around & she wasn't fussed at all. Looked over once when a dog barked at her but she wasn't interested at all which is great.

We've started heelwork foundations & she moves her body so well. She has such lovely movement & such awareness , so very different from the boys who chuck themselves around. We've been doing some pivots at home which we also did in the park & she's picked this up so quickly.

For such a bloody gobby dog her bark on command has been so difficult to get. It seemed that this was the only time she was actually quiet but we've made progress on this pretty quickly now I bought Archer in to show her what I wanted. Still no 'off' switch tho 

She's so naughty at home & always trying to wind the boys up. She makes me laugh so much, she is so full of cheekiness & is always in to something.










Pic of her &Archer out in Thetford Forest the other where she was so good. Two incidents of muntjac deer running across out path but she ran back to me each time to get her ball as that's what Archer does. I love this girl so much


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ritter is still a massive pita at home. He still mugs my Mum and nephew, jumping up, mouthing, pulling at clothing but they do little to stop it. I put a tub of treats in the hallway so they can grab a few, ask for a sit when they enter the room. That lasted about 2 days and now they don't bother doing it. He still has to have a lead on indoors in the evening because he is very persistent in trying to get on the sofa with me. I wouldn't mind if he behaved when up there but he's treading all over me, biting the cushions, pulling and scratching at the blanket I have covering me so he's banished to the floor. We have a serious battle of wills over the sofa in particular and it's easier for me to control him with the lead than pushing him or grabbing his collar.
He's also still a nuisance for pinching things like underwear, tea towels, the dishcloths, pegs, carrier bags etc. Life is pretty much like a military operation at home which isnt helped by certain people leaving things about.
He does sleep well overnight now and is happy to settle in his crate once it's dark. He only recently stopped whining through the night but only because I got fed up of it, stomped downstairs and told him to be quiet. It took 2 nights for the message to get through. Once he's had his breakfast he's also happy to go back to bed and let the humans have a lie in.

Out and about he's more attentive to me and we have some good games. He likes to be chased, then chase me with a toy so we have this back and forth game. We were having a really good game the other day, the first time he'd fully engaged with me that way, and things were going great, enough for me to let go of the long line and allow him some freedom, until a bloke and kid appeared with a football. Then he went into the stratosphere rearing up, screaming, barking and just going crazy. I had to take him home and do some scatter feeding to calm him down.
It's situations like that which means he's a danger off lead and just cannot be trusted. But, we have made improvements and many situations he's happy to be walked away from now.

In his various classes he's excelling tbh and is often more advanced than the other dogs with regards to what he can already do. So he knows alot, he just acts like he doesnt! He went through a period of losing all his obedience stuff so I stopped training it, but his focus has returned it seems so we were able to join in with a full class, rather than me just putting him away in the car.

I think one of the biggest things is I feel we have more of an understanding of each other which means we're more harmonious. We do still have a battle of wills over many things but he's learning life is easier and I'm nicer if he complies!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie went back to see his Beagle buddies on Saturday, he had a lot of fun off lead as it's a secure dog field, but they did get a bit overwhelming. One was barking at them all the whole time, three ran up to him growling. It started getting very chaotic and Charlie was growling at them in the end - one of them tried humping him. So we decided it was a good time to leave! 
I also wasn't totally thrilled that there were 3 massive security dogs mouthing off the whole time, and their fence was not high...probably not going back there!









Some dogs are being pretty mean to him for no obvious reason lately - a man said it was okay for his massive Labradoodle to say hello, and then it just flattened him and was growling and barking! 🤨
Charlie will back answer, which I don't have a huge problem with, but I don't want him learning bad habits while he's young, so we're going to avoid dogs for a while, apart from ones we know.
He hadn't been training for about 6 weeks, but he did well on Saturday, although he does get a little snippy with me if he's getting bored/tired 

He had a lovely calm, sniffy walk this morning, just going over some of his basic commands, he gets distracted very easily when we're out, so I'm always happy if he listens to me!
He didn't have any bite zoomies...although he unexpectedly launched himself onto my head when we got home, and I ended up throwing my phone! 😂

We're going to work on him being a bit calmer in public, and not being quite so keen to see other dogs/people.
Basically everyone who sees him says how happy he is, but I have a point to prove to the snotty cow in a pet shop who looks at me like I'm a moron, and I get the feeling she doesn't like Charlie.
She has some lovely members of staff who he adores, and they always have a little game with him, so he gets very excited and looks for them when we're in there, he isn't naughty, he's just energetic...but it was the owner and a different woman this week, who kept making comments like "oh, you need a job to do!" ... "do you take him to training classes or anything?" 🤨
OH thinks I'm being a bit sensitive, but I took it as a little dig, especially as I put so much effort into him, and I felt like a bit of a failure.
I'd boycott the shop completely, but it's useful for some of his treats.
Still, the positive from that is my pettiness will be a good motivator to make Charlie better! 

He's still stealing things, I think he stole 3 pairs of pants, 1 pair of socks, and a top the other day, and he's back to pulling up certain plants again 🙈
But it no longer takes 30 minutes to get him in his crate, and he's sleeping until at least 5:30am!  That extra hour of sleep makes it a LOT easier to deal with his antics!
Ooh, and he can have vetbed without eating it, so all his towels have been thrown away, and he actually has bedding again!

Hoping his next scent work course will start up again soon, and he'll have an assessment at the end of it


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Gemmaa, I know the feeling of feeling judged. When Ritter was a little pup and very bitey and growly with people, there was one neighbour in particular who took a dislike to him, saying he was the naughtiest dog she'd ever known and she always gives him a look of distaste when she sees him. 
Even now I get comments from certain trainers in the classes we go to which make me feel inadequate.

I heard something over the weekend which kind of made me smile with disbelief. Ok, so I know beards aren't everybody's cup of tea, they can be gross and I don't get offended by people saying they dislike my breeds 
I was talking to 2 people I know at a Rally comp, one said to the other 'he's so handsome isn't he?" The other person replied he was ok, but not as nice as this other dog she mentioned.
By all means, think that, but it's just plain rude to come right out and say it whilst I'm stood right there! 

At the end of the day, as long as we love our dogs, doesnt matter what others think.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> @Gemmaa, I know the feeling of feeling judged. When Ritter was a little pup and very bitey and growly with people, there was one neighbour in particular who took a dislike to him, saying he was the naughtiest dog she'd ever known and she always gives him a look of distaste when she sees him.
> Even now I get comments from certain trainers in the classes we go to which make me feel inadequate.
> 
> At the end of the day, as long as we love our dogs, doesnt matter what others think.


I also know the feeling of being judged. Ava is manic at the moment because of squirrels (and I think still a bit hormonal) but I do find myself wishing that somebody would just compliment me on my dog without adding that she looks like a handful…

my sister has a gorgeous lab puppy and everybody raves about her and how cute she is and what a fantastic dog she is and it makes me a bit sad.
On a better note, I took Ava to a secure dog field this weekend (with sister and her puppy) but Ava didn’t immediately disappear off and actually engaged with me.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Dimwit said:


> I also know the feeling of being judged. Ava is manic at the moment because of squirrels (and I think still a bit hormonal) but I do find myself wishing that somebody would just compliment me on my dog without adding that she looks like a handful…
> 
> my sister has a gorgeous lab puppy and everybody raves about her and how cute she is and what a fantastic dog she is and it makes me a bit sad.
> On a better note, I took Ava to a secure dog field this weekend (with sister and her puppy) but Ava didn’t immediately disappear off and actually engaged with me.


It's hard not to feel judged when your dog plays up. Last month I went for a walk with my friend and her parent's lab pup who is about the same age as Bronte. She was just SO EASY in comparison. They do (rather old fashioned) gun dog classes with her which she loves, but in general she was just less distractible and less independent than my fat headed lump. It's not that I don't do training or anything (I obviously do a lot!), but some breeds (and individuals) are just easier than others. Also if a wiggly lab teen runs up to your dog you aren't going to worry as much as if a big shepherd teenager does, despite their intentions being exactly the same.
Bronte is doing well in some things but a bit like @Leanne77 's Ritter he can still be a PITA at home. He's definitely getting better at settling in the front room, but we still have up to 10 minutes of him chewing stuff (some that he shouldn't) or just pacing about. At that point he either settles or I have to go and put him in his crate in the kitchen. I ideally want a crate in the front room so he can rehearse settling in there better but he doesn't settle in the soft crate we have in there and has already put holes in it. Thinking out loud I might actually get a raised bed for the front room as he likes the other's raised beds in the kitchen and see if that helps. 
He has stopped biting a lot except when he gets excited, and mostly directs this at my Mum, I think because she shouts when he does it which excites him more. He also annoys her by taking his toy/chew to her for her to hold, but because she tells him to go away he then starts nibbling her. She's not really a doggy person so doesn't really understand her reaction is partly causing the problem. I suppose as well I'm so used to be around dogs a bit of an excited mouthing or nibbling (he nibbles when he's tired and being a bit affectionate) doesn't bother me, and I tell him to get his toy if I think he's getting too mouthy. And my telling him to stop is a sharp "No" or "Ah ah" at which point he stops (and gets rewarded), whereas my Mum just kind of talks to him loudly or shouts so he doesn't understand he needs to stop. 
I think I need to do more obedience stuff with him now. I've worked hard on play and relationship but I need to start to get some more focused and refined behaviours, rather than basic rough stuff.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I honestly don't care what others think of my dogs unless they are people whose opinions I value & I'm struggling with something. I take Marnie to train over the local park alot as it's full of distractions so great for proofing certain exercises or getting her to focus on me. There is sometimes a puppy class over there & IMO it's awful. Young dogs & puppies who are simply walking round being 'calm' then being corrected if they pull or get a bit boisterous. This is the whole lesson, no play or anything just walking to heel.

They all look so dejected & horrible body language but their owners probably think it's great as their dogs are walking 'nicely' 

My domestics are sh*t tbh but I live in my own so only have to worry about myself. There are few rules & so the dogs are a bit unruly but as long as they are safe I'm really not fussed. Some people would be horrified at their behaviour but they don't annoy guests too much then I let them do what they want.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> My domestics are sh*t tbh but I live in my own so only have to worry about myself. There are few rules & so the dogs are a bit unruly but as long as they are safe I'm really not fussed. Some people would be horrified at their behaviour but as long they don't annoy guests too much then I let them do what they want.


As a wise trainer once told me 'pick your battles'. I focus on what is important to me becuase I am the one who has to live with my dog. For me, calm and quiet in the house are important because it is a small house with neighbours and I don't want to subject them to Ava's horrendous bark for hours on end. Aside from that, she is still quite a hooligan. She is a complete kleptomaniac and I am a rubbish housekeeper so she is constantly bringing me remote controls/stealing washing from the clothes horse etc.
She is a master counter-surfer and last week managed to inhale an entire raw sausage as I was putting them in the oven. She is also so cuddly and thinks she is a lap dog. When she gets bored of me working she will come up and put her paws on my shoulders for a cuddle and then try to climb onto me lap.

Her training is going well, and we are starting to work off lead which was terrifying for me at first, but she is so much more focussed now, and even when she gets distracted she just wanders a bit rather than b***ering off across the fields.
I watched some of my sisters puppy class and there is a woman with a lab puppy there who is going to be her son's working dog (son seems to have no interest and doesn't even come to training). She was showing off the dog's retrieve, which is very good but OMG so robotic. There is no life in this dog and she is constantly pestering the instructor with questions about how to get him to deliver to hand etc. At this stage (4 months old) all of the other puppies are basically just playing with toys. 
Ava has an awesome retrieve and she absolutely loves it. Occasionally she gets overexcited and prances round with the dummy and her deliver to hand can look more like me rugby tackling her and wrestling the dummy out of her gob, but I don't care at this stage because she is enjoying herself and wants to work which is all I care about...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> As a wise trainer once told me 'pick your battles'. I focus on what is important to me becuase I am the one who has to live with my dog. For me, calm and quiet in the house are important because it is a small house with neighbours and I don't want to subject them to Ava's horrendous bark for hours on end. Aside from that, she is still quite a hooligan. She is a complete kleptomaniac and I am a rubbish housekeeper so she is constantly bringing me remote controls/stealing washing from the clothes horse etc.
> She is a master counter-surfer and last week managed to inhale an entire raw sausage as I was putting them in the oven. She is also so cuddly and thinks she is a lap dog. When she gets bored of me working she will come up and put her paws on my shoulders for a cuddle and then try to climb onto me lap.
> 
> Her training is going well, and we are starting to work off lead which was terrifying for me at first, but she is so much more focussed now, and even when she gets distracted she just wanders a bit rather than b***ering off across the fields.
> ...


Oh definitely. I am lucky in that I don't have close neighbours, just as well as Marnie is so loud! My mornings are chaos; Archer & Kato leap all over me, Marnie is barking in her crate then when I let her out she jumps on top of it to bark whilst the boys wrestle then she jumps down to join in. It is awful ..... but quite funny. I honestly have no energy at that time to do anything so I let them get it out of their system whilst I try not to get hurt.

It is just OTT excitement & high spirits which I wish I had a bit more of first thing. I could manage it better, I could train calm, etc but it's easier just to let them have a few mins of OTT behaviour then they calm down.

All my dogs steal things as well, the only one I worry about & stop is Kato as with him he'd eat it as well & I don't want him to have yet another op for a blockage!

Bloody hell at 4mths old I'd not be fixating on a perfect retrieve at all. Plenty of time to concentrate on technique, at aa young age I would want to be building engagement & desire to train or be with me.

When Archer was younger & we started doing bitework when he won the bite pillow from the helper he was so chuffed to bits, & used to do a lap of honour showing off his 'prize' to everyone.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> @Gemmaa, I know the feeling of feeling judged. When Ritter was a little pup and very bitey and growly with people, there was one neighbour in particular who took a dislike to him, saying he was the naughtiest dog she'd ever known and she always gives him a look of distaste when she sees him.
> Even now I get comments from certain trainers in the classes we go to which make me feel inadequate.
> 
> I heard something over the weekend which kind of made me smile with disbelief. Ok, so I know beards aren't everybody's cup of tea, they can be gross and I don't get offended by people saying they dislike my breeds
> ...


I heard our neighbours talking about "horrible, yappy Jack Russell's" the other day...still not sure if they meant us! 😂

That's so rude! I'm not sure why it's so hard to keep opinions like that quiet.
When Charlie first started puppy class, 49% were ginger doodle things, and another 49% were black doodle things...I'm not a huge fan of doodle types, but I always made a fuss and said how lovely they were, I can't imagine being that obnoxious 🙈


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I heard something over the weekend which kind of made me smile with disbelief. Ok, so I know beards aren't everybody's cup of tea, they can be gross and I don't get offended by people saying they dislike my breeds
> I was talking to 2 people I know at a Rally comp, one said to the other 'he's so handsome isn't he?" The other person replied he was ok, but not as nice as this other dog she mentioned.
> By all means, think that, but it's just plain rude to come right out and say it whilst I'm stood right there!
> 
> At the end of the day, as long as we love our dogs, doesnt matter what others think.


Years ago I was at a training day & the women next to me asked what my puppy was (the dogs were in cars at that point). I told her Archer was a WL GSD & she proceeded to tell me how awful GSD's were, how they had so many health problems, how they looked dreadful nowadays, how she would never have one, etc. I sat there & listened to her talk sh*t (I have a weird sense of humour & found it quite amusing) then when it was my turn I said "Excuse me whilst I go & get my deformed dog out, hope he makes it till the end of the session with all his health issues"  

A woman sat next to us really laughed as did I. Archer then went on to do a bloody brilliant training session & I sat back down next to the old cow & smiled nicely at her. She didn't speak to me for the rest of the day


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

All these other thieving pups are making me feel a lot better! 😉
We can't have cushions on the chairs when Charlie is awake, and all the doors upstairs are shut - with notes on them for people who keep forgetting!
Plus he remembers where things are on walks, so I have to keep bringing random rubbish back with me.

I've been working on a better "sit" as he hasn't been as responsive lately, and he can now sit patiently until doors are fully open before going through, he's improving with it at a distance as well. Hoping it'll help his patience.
Trying to add random 'sits' on walks as he goes deaf once his nose is down .
His walking style looks a lot like this!









A few weeks ago we walked a mile on the same, small field 😄


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Bronte HAS to have something in his mouth unless he's sleeping. Generally he's good and it's a toy or a chew, but also it could be a sofa cushion, shoe, slipper, sock, blanket, dog bed, random item of clothing he's found, leaf, Wii remote cover, log, cardboard box, or any other item he has taken a liking to at that particular moment.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> All these other thieving pups are making me feel a lot better! 😉
> We can't have cushions on the chairs when Charlie is awake, and all the doors upstairs are shut - with notes on them for people who keep forgetting!
> Plus he remembers where things are on walks, so I have to keep bringing random rubbish back with me.


Ava is particularly keen on remote controls at the moment. Our trainer told me another of her clients with a pointer has gone through 5 of them! Luckily Ava doesn't really chew them hard - she mainly just manages to turn the tv on and start watching some random thing on Netflix (which is very funny, but has totally messed up their 'you watched this, so you might like...' recommendations for me  

She does make me laugh though...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marnie went through a period of stealing so many things. Usually TV remotes, socks, tea towels, etc but she stole my new glasses one time. £380 as they are varifocals. I looked everywhere for them in the garden but had to give up (luckily it was a buy 1, get 1 free offer so I did have a spare). Then one day about 2mths later I saw something glinting in a flower bed & there they were!

Archer likes to steal my fleece or similar, then curl up & go to sleep with it in his mouth He's always done this, so very sweet


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Archer likes to steal my fleece or similar, then curl up & go to sleep with it in his mouth He's always done this, so very sweet


Ava does this at bed time - I go and brush my teeth, walk back into my bedroom and she is curled up on my bed or her bed with one of my jumpers or similar


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

This thread is making me laugh. All of these behaviours Loki partook in. He’s grown out of most of them and is now a pleasure to have in the house. 

It wasn’t so long ago I asked him to move out. I remember coming home with a new blanket. He stole it and ragged it around the garden covering it in mud. He was insane in the evenings I almost arranged an exorcism.

It makes me a little sad he’s grown up. Enjoy them in this stage it goes quick.

Being judged is part and parcel of owning boxers but I remember being at pup class with Sox. We were in a circle and the trainer had her dog. She suddenly stopped and snapped at me to, ‘move my dog because he was eye balling hers and making it nervous’ now Sox does eyeball but I didn’t know at the time. I was so embarrassed I never went back.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marnie was obviously quite p*ssed off that she had to stay in her crate whilst Kato & I were out. It will be a cold, bare kennel for her next time


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I feel kinda like I shouldn't moan so much about Ritter, he never wrecks anything tbf! There have been a few broken items from when he's going a bit fruit loop in the house and crashes into the cabinets but he's not chewed up bedding, furniture or toys.

I had some positive feedback on his behaviour last night at scentwork class. The trainers commented how quiet and calm he was, both when waiting and when working, and how well he was doing with his indications so it looks like things might finally be getting through to him!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Penny is 3 and still steals socks any chance she gets, especially if I'm trying to put them on so I can walk her. She will sneak up and snatch them right out of my hands! Then she wants to play keep away  
I'm not a fan of keep away so I just grab a different pair and put them on


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I've just had to buy a couple of heavy duty crates (another small fortune!) as Kato breaks out of his (which is held together with metal cables ties & chains) & Marnie's is held together in a similar fashion but is far more ruined (as per previous pics).


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I've just had to buy a couple of heavy duty crates (another small fortune!) as Kato breaks out of his (which is held together with metal cables ties & chains) & Marnie's is held together in a similar fashion but is far more ruined (as per previous pics).


Oof, crates aren't cheap. 
What do you use as bedding? Bronte goes through vetbed so fast, though he doesn't chew woolly blankets. I only have 2 though so they have to be rotated. I forgot I had some rubber matting in the barn so cut some of that to line his metal crate tray, and although he had a bit of a chew when I first put it in he doesn't seem to have bothered since (it's only been 2 days however! So I'm not holding my breath!) I just want some kind of padding for his joints, especially in the winter. I'm even wondering about putting a raised bed INSIDE the crate, but I don't want to decrease the area inside too much, and I can't find one that's a perfect fit yet either (had a quick google) as I don't want stuff to fall under it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> Oof, crates aren't cheap.
> What do you use as bedding? Bronte goes through vetbed so fast, though he doesn't chew woolly blankets. I only have 2 though so they have to be rotated. I forgot I had some rubber matting in the barn so cut some of that to line his metal crate tray, and although he had a bit of a chew when I first put it in he doesn't seem to have bothered since (it's only been 2 days however! So I'm not holding my breath!) I just want some kind of padding for his joints, especially in the winter. I'm even wondering about putting a raised bed INSIDE the crate, but I don't want to decrease the area inside too much, and I can't find one that's a perfect fit yet either (had a quick google) as I don't want stuff to fall under it.


I have (or had!) a variety of beds. Kato wasn't allowed bedding for ages as he'd eat so had a bare crate or kennel. After his op he had to be crated quite a bit so I bought him this bed & it's really nice (it wasn't as expensive as it's now listed at tho). He hasn't eaten this one luckily!

The Dog’s Bed Orthopaedic Dog Bed Large Blue/Red Waterproof Memory Foam Dog Bed : Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

Marnie has a cheap one in her kennel which she's not touched. I think it's when she's in a crate inside that she gets so angry as she can hear me getting the other dogs out & hates missing out. So no bedding for her in her crate now


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I put some photos of Ritter enjoying himself in a secure field in his breeders FB group. Cue the die hard gundog people, including his breeder, telling me he basically shouldn't be running around unchecked, I need to practice recalls, stop whistle and heelwork and that every walk should be training. I'm giving him mixed messages apparently and too much freedom.
Give the poor pup a break, I feel like all we ever do is work on behaviour and training and I do enough of all that every day with him. He needs some opportunity to just let off steam sometimes. It's not like he's in a secure field every day running riot.
His breeder is holding the breed club fun day at the weekend, I'm kinda dreading going because he wont be walking to heel or behaving perfectly and I feel like they'll be judging us and telling me I should or should not be doing x, y and z. She never likes or comments on my posts I put up of him of all the various things he does, except when she wants to tell me when I'm doing something she doesn't agree with.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh that sucks @Leanne77 it's so hard not to take stuff like that to heart 

You're doing the right thing, at the end of the day, the only one who has to live with Ritter is you. Your dog, your choice. 

Did you see Denise Fenzi's post with Xen just bombing around and the accompanying post saying his training has been lack luster so today is let him be a dog day? 

I'm like you in that I really think time to blow off steam is so important. In 5 years when you have a steady, lovely trained dog who still has a great bond with you and a personality, it will all be worth it


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I put some photos of Ritter enjoying himself in a secure field in his breeders FB group. Cue the die hard gundog people, including his breeder, telling me he basically shouldn't be running around unchecked, I need to practice recalls, stop whistle and heelwork and that every walk should be training. I'm giving him mixed messages apparently and too much freedom.
> Give the poor pup a break, I feel like all we ever do is work on behaviour and training and I do enough of all that every day with him. He needs some opportunity to just let off steam sometimes. It's not like he's in a secure field every day running riot.
> His breeder is holding the breed club fun day at the weekend, I'm kinda dreading going because he wont be walking to heel or behaving perfectly and I feel like they'll be judging us and telling me I should or should not be doing x, y and z. She never likes or comments on my posts I put up of him of all the various things he does, except when she wants to tell me when I'm doing something she doesn't agree with.



Don't go. Honestly if you feel that way I wouldn't bother, hardly sounds like it's going to be a 'fun' day for you. When Kato was younger & not interested in me or training, etc I was told to make everything come through me; food, play, walks, etc & be more controlling. I did sort of try this (not exactly as suggested) but it didn't sit right & it actually made things worse IMO. In the end I just backed off & that's when things changed. I just needed to understand Kato a bit more & see what motivated him rather than assume.

Like people, dogs need time to chill out. Formal training constantly is draining for both of you. My dogs have always had free time but I am clear in when this is. I realised I was confusing Marnie when taking her over the local park so changed my set up & cues for when she was 'training' & when it was 'free' time. She very quickly cottoned on & am sure most dogs do.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Cleo38, I'm not letting her put us off, I've been looking forward to going to this ever since it's original date on one of the hottest days ever was rearranged for Autumn.
I think it's going to be quite busy and there's alot going on so hopefully we'll blend into the crowd.

As @O2.0 said, he's my dog now so decisions on what I do and how I train is mine. At the end of the day, the way his breeder views their dogs and their intended purpose is different to me.

Oooh, whilst I'm here, little win today. On the park having a play and working on a few bits here and there and he spots somebody a short distance away in a different area flying a kite. He's interested and starts to make his way towards it but easily turns away and engages with me in a game of tug. I decided to leave whilst the going was good! A few weeks ago he'd be kicking off at that.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

We had a great agility class today. When Bronte's 2 brain cells work together he is really good, though he's a bit 'enthusiastic' shall we say! He's all speed and no control, but that will come in time (and when we can put the jumps higher so he's got to slow down!). We've only been doing it since June so I'm really pleased with him. He was even starting to weave a bit today without me luring him but using smaller gestures and voice control. He absolutely loves it and I can see it being something we can really enjoy together. Just need to stop the biting when he gets a bit over excited! We've worked out that my outstretched arm, especially when he comes out the tunnel, is a bit too tempting! So I need to collect him as he comes out the tunnel and tell him where to go rather than stand at the next obstacle with my arm out (and ready to munch on). He did have his usual one zoom round the field to get it out of his system, but that's not a problem and he comes back and goes straight into the course. 
I also love that he can be around other dogs running and not be bothered. If they are barking he can get a bit excited but that's more at the beginning when everyone's raring to go.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I have (or had!) a variety of beds. Kato wasn't allowed bedding for ages as he'd eat so had a bare crate or kennel. After his op he had to be crated quite a bit so I bought him this bed & it's really nice (it wasn't as expensive as it's now listed at tho). He hasn't eaten this one luckily!
> 
> The Dog’s Bed Orthopaedic Dog Bed Large Blue/Red Waterproof Memory Foam Dog Bed : Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies
> 
> Marnie has a cheap one in her kennel which she's not touched. I think it's when she's in a crate inside that she gets so angry as she can hear me getting the other dogs out & hates missing out. So no bedding for her in her crate now


She is sorry to miss out but also I think crates are claustrophobic and boring for them sometimes and so they get distressed and destructive.
I know if I had to be confined in such a small space as that even for a short time (10 mins) I would feel like breaking out !


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> She is sorry to miss out but also I think crates are claustrophobic and boring for them sometimes and so they get distressed and destructive.
> I know if I had to be confined in such a small space as that even for a short time (10 mins) I would feel like breaking out !


I do agree to an extent, & some dogs cope better than others but life is boring at times & my dogs need to accept this. I do train this for them, it's not something I expect instantly. They are contained for very short periods, kennelled if left longer which is very rare. I work from home so cannot have 3 dogs causing chaos when I'm in an online meeting, a certain amount of noise is ok but they sound like they're killing each other some days 

.Kato (my middle dog) also has had to have 2 ops for intestinal blockages so cannot be left free in the house unless supervised. He also had an op for a fractured elbow in April (it's always bloody Kato!) so is still not 100%. They are such rowdy knobheads that they need to be told to calm down & crating the main offender is sometimes the only way.

They have very active, fulfilled lives so crating them for very short periods (IMO) is not a big deal.

Anyway, the heavy duty ones should be here next week, am just hoping they don't wreck these ones


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I do agree to an extent, & some dogs cope better than others but life is boring at times & my dogs need to accept this.


Absolutely, and so many people neglect this but it is so important for a dog to learn to be bored and to self settle.
When I was on my training holiday over the summer this is the thing I was working on most - teaching Ava do disengage and settle and that presence doesn't mean access. She found it really hard so in the end our trainer suggested putting her in my car (parked just outside the cottage) for time out. And it worked. I felt terrible at first but she actually settled really well and by the third time she was happily jumping into the car with no encouragement. 
I would never use a crate (or car) as 'punishment' but if my dog is so over threshold that she is not capable of making good choices then it is my responsibility to put her in a position where she can.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie got his head stuck in an empty bag of Wotsits on his walk 😂

He also just pulled up the root of a plant that I had cut right down to save it from him 🙃
....BUT when he finished ripping it up, he came running up to me and sat really nicely, so that's a positive??? 🙈
He's been swinging a small plank of wood around, and appears to have a camp behind the bins & I can hear something being broken...so it's going really well! 🤣


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

So, so proud of my Marine Moo today. Took the boys out together earlier (first time since Kato's op) then had a training session with Marnie over the local park finishing with a walk in a small wooded area & through some fields.

As we were walking through a stubble field we were playing ball & she came running back to me with it then suddenly stopped, dropped her ball & looked down. Very odd stance that I hadn't seen before so I looked & right next to my right foot was a young hare desperately trying to be invisible.

All of a sudden it ran (they are so bloody quick!) but Marnie looked at me so I said "YES!" then threw her ball in the opposite direction. This all happened in a split second & I can't believe that for once my timing was spot on!

She came running back with her ball & I threw it again for her, the hare was forgotten about although I could still see it racing towards another field.

OMG, this was so amazing. I was so happy with her. Even tho she's not chased before I was always slightly worried that I was relying on Archer being a good guide & her just following him. She probably was but it obviously provided good foundation training. Not that I will be complacent (I never am with this sort of thing) but she was bloody fantastic today


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

OMG, @Gemmaa that just made me laugh so much. Earlier this year Kato choked on a potato he found left over from the harvest. I bent down next to him trying to get it out when all of a sudden he coughed, the potato flew out & hit me in the face. I was then sporting yet another black eye from him 😭


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Crates are another one of those tools that you really have to know your dog. 
Bates hated his crate, he would go in it if I told him to, but no amount of crate games, feeding him in there and making it a happy awesome place made it anything other than a "have to" for him. I think part of it was FOMO, though he did have a great settle on a bed or mat, and part of it was just that he didn't like crates. He would never choose that sort of place on his own like some dogs look for places under chairs or desks, he was an out in the middle of things dog and I think for him, no matter how big the crate, it was always going to feel too confining. 

Penny on the other hand loves her crate and chooses to go in there on her own. She does have FOMO and will protest being in the crate if she thinks something better is going on, and that is a work in progress, but at home the crate is open and she will often go in there on her own to sleep. Her other favorite sleeping spot is under the bed with the bedspread offering the rest of the cave/den environment. 

For the first year I had her, for her own safety she stayed in a crate if we were not home. It was an old greyhound size crate, so more like a mansion for her little 10 pound self, but she didn't mind the confinement at all. Her current crate is still big but much smaller. 

Bates was a large dog but even in a great dane sized crate he was never happy.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Crates are another one of those tools that you really have to know your dog.
> Bates hated his crate, he would go in it if I told him to, but no amount of crate games, feeding him in there and making it a happy awesome place made it anything other than a "have to" for him.


Sprocket hated his crate - he really didn't see it as a 'safe space' I think for him he really struggled with being confined like that, and was much more reactive to noise etc. when he was in his crate than if he was loose.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Ava was awesome again at gundog training yesterday - I just love her enthusiasm. We were working on steadiness so she had to sit on a placeboard while I threw a dummy to the side, and then released her. She was practically vibrating because she was so desperate to get it but she held her stay and then was so happy when she was released to retrieve. She goes out like an arrow and then is So proud of herself when she brings the dummy back to me.

She was also a VERY good girl. We were doing a memory retrieve with the dummy 30 metres away and the second time she got distracted when she reached the dummy (it was very windy, so lots of good smells), so she wandered past it and then started looking around. She was perilously close to the gap in the hedge that she has previously disappeared through but I blew my recall whistle ad she came pelting back to me. OK, so it was minus the dummy but I was so proud of her - she had the choice to ignore me and disappear over the field but she didn't


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Ava was awesome again at gundog training yesterday - I just love her enthusiasm. We were working on steadiness so she had to sit on a placeboard while I threw a dummy to the side, and then released her. She was practically vibrating because she was so desperate to get it but she held her stay and then was so happy when she was released to retrieve. She goes out like an arrow and then is So proud of herself when she brings the dummy back to me.
> 
> She was also a VERY good girl. We were doing a memory retrieve with the dummy 30 metres away and the second time she got distracted when she reached the dummy (it was very windy, so lots of good smells), so she wandered past it and then started looking around. She was perilously close to the gap in the hedge that she has previously disappeared through but I blew my recall whistle ad she came pelting back to me. OK, so it was minus the dummy but I was so proud of her - she had the choice to ignore me and disappear over the field but she didn't


That's great @Dimwit. Sounds like you are both doing so well, such a great feeling when you see progress.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Crates are something that I think all dogs should have some training with as you never know when they'll need to be confined, but certainly not every dog is going to need or love a crate. 
Bronte needs a crate, and loves his crate. If he's left to his own devices he will chew anything, and I can't imagine the other 2 would be very happy about having him annoy them while they are trying to sleep or rest. He will go and choose to rest in it, and he will be very clear when he wants to go in there and have me shut him in! (Weirdo) Obviously we're having him out of it more and more, but it's a god send having somewhere safe for him to be when we need him out of the way.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

As a balance to my recent positive posts - this is the brand new harness that I bought for mantrailing…


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ooops!! Did it fall in to Ava's mouth @Dimwit ?!


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Ooops!! Did it fall in to Ava's mouth?!


Something like that 🙄
I thought I had put it safely away in my porch but the little ninja must have gone it while I was putting my boots on or something 😡

It’s a good job she’s cute…


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Something like that 🙄
> I thought I had put it safely away in my porch but the little ninja must have gone it while I was putting my boots on or something 😡
> 
> It’s a good job she’s cute…


After Kato's elbow op I was using Roxy's old Help 'Em Up harness on him (cost nearly £100) & when he went back in his crate I hung it up next to it. But the little sh*t managed to get to one of the straps & eat it! 

Luckily it was just material & it came out several hours later but I was so annoyed. I think I might be able to get some who can salvage it but it's such a great harness & would have come in handy again if any of the dogs were injured.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

We mucked up yesterday! We were running behind in the morning, and we didn't get back from Charlie's walk until 30 minutes before his training class. He was really tired and wanted to sleep, but only got a ten minute nap before we had to go 🙈 .
We'd taken him into town for a few minutes before we decided it was too busy and annoying...he did go in an elevator and coped really well, even though we had to really rush getting him in there.

He was such a knob at training! Totally obsessed with the other pups - who were all MUCH better behaved than him.
He had a big, over tired, tantrum and started grabbing my hands and nipped my leg.
The weird French Bulldog is still there, and Charlie hates him, so kept barking at him. The owner said more dogs than not, react badly to him. 
I'm fairly sure some of the other dogs snapped at him...so I really hope they won't go back! I'm not sure what he's getting out of it!
She said something like "hmm, I've got the measure of you, Charlie!" before walking away...not sure what she meant by that 🤷‍♀️
They're also local, and we saw them in the park last night so we had to hide behind a bush so they wouldn't see us 🙊

He did at least manage a few recalls, and left treats on the ground...but I admit I did cry a little bit, but thankfully only at the end, so I was able to run and hide in the car. Just really embarrassing and frustrating.

This morning was much better though, we went for a long walk and discovered that clay pigeon shooting has begun! The track was right next to it, and it didn't stop at all. Good practice for fireworks, and he was not fussed at all! Very proud of him, because the noise was actually quite horrific!

At least the horrible training class has given me a kick up the bum to work harder, and we know not to let him get tired before we go!
Hoping next week is going to be much better!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> We mucked up yesterday! We were running behind in the morning, and we didn't get back from Charlie's walk until 30 minutes before his training class. He was really tired and wanted to sleep, but only got a ten minute nap before we had to go 🙈 .
> We'd taken him into town for a few minutes before we decided it was too busy and annoying...he did go in an elevator and coped really well, even though we had to really rush getting him in there.
> 
> He was such a knob at training! Totally obsessed with the other pups - who were all MUCH better behaved than him.
> ...


We have all been there tho @Gemmaa so try not to worry too much what others think of you. When i started (yet another) training class with Roxy (my first GSD) we were the worst in class for ages. She was a rescue & had alot of behavioural issues & we were dropped from several behaviourists before we ended up finding a trainer who ran classes where she could have space .

But she was awful some days, really kicking off at other dogs, completely ignoring me, etc. the trainer was great & everyone knew to just ignore her but it was so embarrassing initially. But, as well as learning about her I also learnt not to worry so much. I was working on things & learning, that's what you are there for.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> We have all been there tho @Gemmaa so try not to worry too much what others think of you. When i started (yet another) training class with Roxy (my first GSD) we were the worst in class for ages. She was a rescue & had alot of behavioural issues & we were dropped from several behaviourists before we ended up finding a trainer who ran classes where she could have space .
> 
> But she was awful some days, really kicking off at other dogs, completely ignoring me, etc. the trainer was great & everyone knew to just ignore her but it was so embarrassing initially. But, as well as learning about her I also learnt not to worry so much. I was working on things & learning, that's what you are there for.


Yeah, I'm trying to develop a thicker skin, I'm terrible for overthinking things.

I'm going to work on Charlie developing some more patience, as he can be stroppy...but am trying to keep it all in perspective, it was just a particularly crappy day, and everything seemed worse than it probably was.

If the mutant Frenchie is still there, I'll be avoiding it completely from now on!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

My 2 days at Ritters breeders farm at the breed club day has been a mixture of feelings. It's reassuring to see other pups behaving the same and speak to owners of older dogs who said theirs were the same as pups but grew out of it (I'm talking bird obsession, high arousal around movement etc). It was a working test today and some of the older dogs were awful. One GSP at 4 years old just ran amok hunting and flushing birds everywhere. A whole group of us were yelling and trying to at least slow her down but she was a thing possessed! It was supposed to be doing a simple retrieve. Surely you must know, as the owner, that you dont have the level of control in that environment. It's why I withdrew Ritter.
So I've come to the conclusion he's pretty normal, and quite well behaved!
On the flip side, I got a lecture both days off his breeders, lectures and advice I didnt ask for. The gist of it is I'm too soft, he's top dog, I'm doing too many things with him so he'll be jack of all trades, master of none and it's getting in the way of his basic training. To stop him pulling I need a choke chain and to yank him back as hard as I can. To stop him jumping up I need to knee him in the chest, and to get him to sit faster, and to lie down on a whistle, I've got to whip him on his bum and back with the lead. When I said I wasn't prepared to be that harsh I was told I'd never get anywhere with him then and I might as will give up. 
It was very much a case of their way is the only way to get results and they're not open to different ideas. I get the impression they think the other stuff I do with him is pointless and namby pamby as these are old school, die hard gundog people. It's true they have a successful trialling kennel but I wonder at what cost to their dogs. I don't need Ritter to be up to their standards as I'm not aiming for the same thing and I didn't like being told what he should and shouldn't be doing.
So I came away today feeling both angry and upset. 
I also saw 2 more owners of his littermates and had a chat, both seasoned GWP owners and both said these pups were particularly challenging. Another one has even gone back to be rehomed and is currently in their kennels.
So maybe they should be looking at what they bred, rather than blaming owners for not managing them correctly.
But f**k them, I think he's doing well and I'll do with him whatever I see fit!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> My 2 days at Ritters breeders farm at the breed club day has been a mixture of feelings. It's reassuring to see other pups behaving the same and speak to owners of older dogs who said theirs were the same as pups but grew out of it (I'm talking bird obsession, high arousal around movement etc). It was a working test today and some of the older dogs were awful. One GSP at 4 years old just ran amok hunting and flushing birds everywhere. A whole group of us were yelling and trying to at least slow her down but she was a thing possessed! It was supposed to be doing a simple retrieve. Surely you must know, as the owner, that you dont have the level of control in that environment. It's why I withdrew Ritter.
> So I've come to the conclusion he's pretty normal, and quite well behaved!
> On the flip side, I got a lecture both days off his breeders, lectures and advice I didnt ask for. The gist of it is I'm too soft, he's top dog, I'm doing too many things with him so he'll be jack of all trades, master of none and it's getting in the way of his basic training. To stop him pulling I need a choke chain and to yank him back as hard as I can. To stop him jumping up I need to knee him in the chest, and to get him to sit faster, and to lie down on a whistle, I've got to whip him on his bum and back with the lead. When I said I wasn't prepared to be that harsh I was told I'd never get anywhere with him then and I might as will give up.
> It was very much a case of their way is the only way to get results and they're not open to different ideas. I get the impression they think the other stuff I do with him is pointless and namby pamby as these are old school, die hard gundog people. It's true they have a successful trialling kennel but I wonder at what cost to their dogs. I don't need Ritter to be up to their standards as I'm not aiming for the same thing and I didn't like being told what he should and shouldn't be doing.
> ...


I know very little about the gundog world but this sounds like horrible advice. You both seem to have fun doing what you do not everything needs to be perfect. im not surprised you were upset. Keep doing your thing.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> My 2 days at Ritters breeders farm at the breed club day has been a mixture of feelings. It's reassuring to see other pups behaving the same and speak to owners of older dogs who said theirs were the same as pups but grew out of it (I'm talking bird obsession, high arousal around movement etc). It was a working test today and some of the older dogs were awful. One GSP at 4 years old just ran amok hunting and flushing birds everywhere. A whole group of us were yelling and trying to at least slow her down but she was a thing possessed! It was supposed to be doing a simple retrieve. Surely you must know, as the owner, that you dont have the level of control in that environment. It's why I withdrew Ritter.
> So I've come to the conclusion he's pretty normal, and quite well behaved!
> On the flip side, I got a lecture both days off his breeders, lectures and advice I didnt ask for. The gist of it is I'm too soft, he's top dog, I'm doing too many things with him so he'll be jack of all trades, master of none and it's getting in the way of his basic training. To stop him pulling I need a choke chain and to yank him back as hard as I can. To stop him jumping up I need to knee him in the chest, and to get him to sit faster, and to lie down on a whistle, I've got to whip him on his bum and back with the lead. When I said I wasn't prepared to be that harsh I was told I'd never get anywhere with him then and I might as will give up.
> It was very much a case of their way is the only way to get results and they're not open to different ideas. I get the impression they think the other stuff I do with him is pointless and namby pamby as these are old school, die hard gundog people. It's true they have a successful trialling kennel but I wonder at what cost to their dogs. I don't need Ritter to be up to their standards as I'm not aiming for the same thing and I didn't like being told what he should and shouldn't be doing.
> ...


I think you are doing brilliantly with him, especially when being bombarded with advice by people who really need to move with the times. I find gundog people can be so stuck in old school training because it's worked for so long, they just can't understand there are other ways to do things and it's not a one size fits all thing. Especially when they are breeding really hard dogs, you can't just dominate and threaten your dog to get them to do what you want, a lot are just going to stick 2 fingers up to that and do their own thing. You need to actually think of other ways to get them working with you other than intimidation! I mean it was clearly working soooo well for those other dogs you saw working... 🙄 

I was helping at a fun dog show for the charity today, and got my brother to bring Bronte down for a bit (plus there was cake so he could buy us some treats ) Apparently he was so well behaved on his walk there and back, but as soon as he got to the hall he was VERY over excited. He spotted me, and then there were lots of dogs in the field where the show was and he just wanted to go and say hello to everyone. There is no malice or anything in him, he just found it so exciting to be surrounded by dogs and people in the place we do training in the winter, he lacked a bit of self control! He wasn't uncontrollable or anything, just found it hard to be calm and settle. He did do well when I had treats and was getting him to sit or lie down, but as soon as I stopped rewarding he was back up and whinging again. It's not like he can't settle around other dogs, he can do it at training class and at agility, but I think being surrounded by a lot of dogs and people was a bit much for him, especially as he was being handled by my brother rather than me. It's given me good info though so I know I need to work a bit more in busy environments.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I took Marnie to an obedience show that was being held near me today. A couple of friends were competing so I thought it would be good to take her there for some socialising as I've not been able to do much recently due to my back crippling me again. Because the girls in her litter tend to be gobby madam's this is really something I need to keep on top of so I was pleasantly surprised that there was none of that today at all.

I think, initially, it was quite alot for her to take in as it was very busy; lots of people & dogs all over the place. Dogs just sitting round, being walked, playing, training & then the rings where they were competing. I sat away from the rings initially (just in case she decided to bark!), then we went near to a training area. She was great tho. Today wasn't about doing any training or engagement work with her at all but just letting her be.

We had a walk round then sat nearer the competing rings & she was very relaxed at this time. She ended up laying down & just chilling in the sun which was great. Was a really nice few hours & am glad I went


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> My 2 days at Ritters breeders farm at the breed club day has been a mixture of feelings. It's reassuring to see other pups behaving the same and speak to owners of older dogs who said theirs were the same as pups but grew out of it (I'm talking bird obsession, high arousal around movement etc). It was a working test today and some of the older dogs were awful. One GSP at 4 years old just ran amok hunting and flushing birds everywhere. A whole group of us were yelling and trying to at least slow her down but she was a thing possessed! It was supposed to be doing a simple retrieve. Surely you must know, as the owner, that you dont have the level of control in that environment. It's why I withdrew Ritter.
> So I've come to the conclusion he's pretty normal, and quite well behaved!
> On the flip side, I got a lecture both days off his breeders, lectures and advice I didnt ask for. The gist of it is I'm too soft, he's top dog, I'm doing too many things with him so he'll be jack of all trades, master of none and it's getting in the way of his basic training. To stop him pulling I need a choke chain and to yank him back as hard as I can. To stop him jumping up I need to knee him in the chest, and to get him to sit faster, and to lie down on a whistle, I've got to whip him on his bum and back with the lead. When I said I wasn't prepared to be that harsh I was told I'd never get anywhere with him then and I might as will give up.
> It was very much a case of their way is the only way to get results and they're not open to different ideas. I get the impression they think the other stuff I do with him is pointless and namby pamby as these are old school, die hard gundog people. It's true they have a successful trialling kennel but I wonder at what cost to their dogs. I don't need Ritter to be up to their standards as I'm not aiming for the same thing and I didn't like being told what he should and shouldn't be doing.
> ...


Sounds awful!

I really sympathise...he's not as bad as they sound, but my dad is very old fashioned and a pack leader/dominance theory believer, it's actually causing a fair bit of friction at the moment.
It's so annoying because I know when things go wrong, it reinforces to him that he's right and that his completely ridiculous ideas are the best way, and then I feel more pressure...doesn't seem to be any consideration that puppies do dumb/annoying things 

However, you're obviously doing a brilliant job with Ritter, and the fact that the older dog was so out of control, validates you further!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

So after feeling a bit miffed over the weekend, I've been really pleased with Ritter today. He has had some tantrums which is unusual nowadays, and is trying his luck, but I think he's tired. He's been on the football field and was a superstar. Going there used to mean he ran around ignoring me and looking for pigeons and crows to chase. Now we go on there and he's constantly looking at me to see if I'm going to produce a toy or do anything interesting. He also now gives me his full focus when we're playing rather than a half assed attempt until something catches his eye. We also did some control exercises which included heelwork, stop whistle, stays and steadiness. He stopped on the whistle when he got too interested in a crow, and when he broke a stay to get a toy I was attempting to hide, both times surprising me by doing as he was told in a tempting situation. He's certainly teaching me to appreciate even the smallest of wins.
He's resting now until mantrailing later (something I apparently shouldn't be doing as it will ruin his hunting).


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> He's resting now until mantrailing later (something I apparently shouldn't be doing as it will ruin his hunting).


I recommended mantrailing to my gundog trainer for one of her dogs and now she is hooked and has recommended it to loads of people - even those with working gundogs!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's great @Leanne77 , he sounds like he's doing so well


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Gemmaa said:


> The weird French Bulldog is still there, and Charlie hates him, so kept barking at him. The owner said more dogs than not, react badly to him.


Bates was never great with most other dogs, but he hated anything brachy. Especially smaller brachy dogs. There was a boston terrier that we used to run in to at shows and Bates could not wrap his head around that this was a dog, not some weird prey. 




Leanne77 said:


> When I said I wasn't prepared to be that harsh I was told I'd never get anywhere with him then and I might as will give up.


Be patient  In about 3 years you're going to have a phenomenal dog and more importantly a great relationship with him, and that's the best way to shut up the doubters  

The number of people who have told me I'm doing things "wrong" with Penny have really dwindled lately as it's evident that she has turned in to a mostly civilized swamprat


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Haha! I went out full of optimism this morning, working on recall...I had him on a 5 metre long line, and he must have been ignoring me because I did the old "let the lead go and run away!" ...ya know, 'cause it ALWAYS works, and being a bit cocky because he's usually pretty good at recall.....well, apparently it only works *sometimes * 🙊

Charlie stopped, looked at me....then ran in a big circle (a yippee moment!) and headed straight for the exit!
Meanwhile I'm tooting my whistle like a moron, & screaming for him to come back, while flapping a load of tuna in the air... "CHARLIE!!! WASSTHISWASSTHIIIIIIIIIS!!!!!!" and the little darling just sauntered off!
Luckily he was slowly following a scent and stopped by a bush, while I flapped over in my wellies, trying to restore my heart to normal its rhythm.
Pretty sure he would have just gone on his walk and found his way home, I just slow him down! 

So! Lesson learned - Charlie is a massive git & I am dumb! 😂 I've now ordered a 10 metre long line, 5m is too short and I might have been able to pounce on the lead if it was longer.

I get the feeling I'm going to have to do cartwheels with squirrels attached to my feet to get his attention, but I'm sure we'll get there, and I'll look back on this morning and laugh one day...in the very distant future! 😬


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> Haha! I went out full of optimism this morning, working on recall...I had him on a 5 metre long line, and he must have been ignoring me because I did the old "let the lead go and run away!" ...ya know, 'cause it ALWAYS works, and being a bit cocky because he's usually pretty good at recall.....well, apparently it only works *sometimes * 🙊
> 
> Charlie stopped, looked at me....then ran in a big circle (a yippee moment!) and headed straight for the exit!
> Meanwhile I'm tooting my whistle like a moron, & screaming for him to come back, while flapping a load of tuna in the air... "CHARLIE!!! WASSTHISWASSTHIIIIIIIIIS!!!!!!" and the little darling just sauntered off!
> ...


Kato was very similar! I tried really hard to be 'exciting' & 'fun' but he used to look at me like I was a [email protected]  

You will get there. Kato was also very independent & I really struggled to get much engagement with him in his teenage phase. Even playing, I was so grateful when he decided he would play with me then the next day I would get the toy out (the one that he decided he liked) & he would look at me like I was waving a sh*t at him & he would then walk off 😭

When he was really little we were out & he was off lead as little puppies never really stray far do they? 
No one told Kato this! He wanted to go one way (really muddy) so I walked the other way just assuming he would follow. He bloody didn't & I had to continue as I knew if I turned & went back to him then he would remember this (even then I knew he had attitude!). I walked for quite a while, sweating that he wasn't going to come when eventually he ran after me. I was nearly out of sight before he decided that he would come. He only tried this once more before he thought that I really would go.

He is such a funny dog, he has his own way of doing everything & I have had to work so hard to understand what makes him tick


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Jed never got the memo that puppies dont stray far either. As a youngster he was obsessed with other dogs. One day he saw a bloke walk past with a dog so he squeezed through the wrought iron gate (so he must've been 8/9 weeks old), escaped the garden and went chasing after them down the street. He'd also run the length of a field to go say hello. He soon stayed on a line.
Jed was a very independent, strong willed dog who needed a very good reason to do as he was asked.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm losing my patience with Ritter in an evening, he's an absolute nightmare after his tea. He gets fed around 6pm when he's got no classes and that's the time I want to chill out after very early mornings, work, then playing/training/walking him.
However, he has other ideas as he paces, whinges, tries his luck removing the cushions then he's very persistent in just winding me up. He keeps putting his paws on me, mouthing, barking and I've tried all kinds of things to get him to stop. The more I push him off, the more he comes back (obviously) but even when I really try to put my foot down to let him know to knock it off, he just comes back for more. 
Everybody else finds it really easy to get him to stop doing something with just a harsh voice, he goes all submissive, yet it's almost like he laughs in my face when I do it. I'm always being told I need to stop being so soft with him but I'm far from soft, he just doesn't take me seriously when I'm trying to be firm. It really is quite annoying that it works like a dream for others yet not for me.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm losing my patience with Ritter in an evening, he's an absolute nightmare after his tea. He gets fed around 6pm when he's got no classes and that's the time I want to chill out after very early mornings, work, then playing/training/walking him.
> However, he has other ideas as he paces, whinges, tries his luck removing the cushions then he's very persistent in just winding me up. He keeps putting his paws on me, mouthing, barking and I've tried all kinds of things to get him to stop. The more I push him off, the more he comes back (obviously) but even when I really try to put my foot down to let him know to knock it off, he just comes back for more.
> Everybody else finds it really easy to get him to stop doing something with just a harsh voice, he goes all submissive, yet it's almost like he laughs in my face when I do it. I'm always being told I need to stop being so soft with him but I'm far from soft, he just doesn't take me seriously when I'm trying to be firm. It really is quite annoying that it works like a dream for others yet not for me.


Loki used to be a nightmare in the evening he’s pretty chill now. It sounds silly but I would sim the lights put his toys away except a kong and not move very much. This to shall pass.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki used to be a nightmare in the evening he’s pretty chill now. It sounds silly but I would sim the lights put his toys away except a kong and not move very much. This to shall pass.


We dont have lights or lamps on anyway and he doesnt have free access to toys otherwise he'd never stop.
I still have to have him on a lead and he did get pretty good at settling but now he's taken a step backward and we've gotten into this cycle again of irritating behaviour.
Now it's getting colder I can't even have a blanket over me because he's pulling at it, digging at it (which can be quite painful when I'm under it) and just being really annoying.
I dont move tbh, just sit and watch the TV but it's hard not to react when he's mouthing, jumping on me, digging at my legs.
I had this notion that we'd snuggle up together and keep each other warm but not given his current behaviour we wont.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> We dont have lights or lamps on anyway and he doesnt have free access to toys otherwise he'd never stop.
> I still have to have him on a lead and he did get pretty good at settling but now he's taken a step backward and we've gotten into this cycle again of irritating behaviour.
> Now it's getting colder I can't even have a blanket over me because he's pulling at it, digging at it (which can be quite painful when I'm under it) and just being really annoying.
> I dont move tbh, just sit and watch the TV but it's hard not to react when he's mouthing, jumping on me, digging at my legs.
> I had this notion that we'd snuggle up together and keep each other warm but not given his current behaviour we wont.


Ah memories Loki was exactly the same now he’s not and I get a bit sad he’s growing up. We do snuggle now a lot ! Can you add a quick evening walk ?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> Ah memories Loki was exactly the same now he’s not and I get a bit sad he’s growing up. We do snuggle now a lot ! Can you add a quick evening walk ?


He doesnt get taken out until later in the afternoon anyway but I'd rather not do an evening walk. Most of my evenings are taken up with his classes anyway so on my free ones I really just want to have a shower, put my feet up and watch TV.
The only time I've ever done early morning or evening walks is when it's too hot during the day. I've never done them as a matter of course.
I'm sure we'll get through it, just got to ride it out!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> He doesnt get taken out until later in the afternoon anyway but I'd rather not do an evening walk. Most of my evenings are taken up with his classes anyway so on my free ones I really just want to have a shower, put my feet up and watch TV.
> The only time I've ever done early morning or evening walks is when it's too hot during the day. I've never done them as a matter of course.
> I'm sure we'll get through it, just got to ride it out!


It’s sounds like him and Loki would get on.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

What about going a few steps backwards with the ‘settle’ training. I was going to suggest putting on a lead but it sounds as if you’re already doing this.

If he has a bed/mat/place then put him on it, with a Kong, chew or whatever, and put him back there, over and over. Every time. For as long as it takes because hopefully you’ll only fight this battle once.

Sometimes, particularly with teenage dogs, you get to the ‘because I say so’ stage. Ritter is pushing boundaries now and maybe needs a wake up call, or alternatively, needs to be shown what to do if he’s doing all this as default behaviour.

PS I didn’t go back and re-read all the posts here.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> He doesnt get taken out until later in the afternoon anyway but I'd rather not do an evening walk. Most of my evenings are taken up with his classes anyway so on my free ones I really just want to have a shower, put my feet up and watch TV.
> The only time I've ever done early morning or evening walks is when it's too hot during the day. I've never done them as a matter of course.
> I'm sure we'll get through it, just got to ride it out!


What time does he have his last walk, etc? How long? What do you do? It might be that he just has an extra surge in the evening & you can channel it in to something more productive then get him to settle. 

Could you do some training with him in the evening, maybe some scentwork which gets him mentally stimulated? Or a kibble scatter in the garden?

On a different note I went to a tracking training day with Marnie yesterday, it was amazing. She was great but I learnt so much again. really interesting seeing the different dogs & the problems they had, the possible solutions, etc ..... always so much to think about. 

It was her first time tracking with anyone else around & having someone walk alongside but she was so focussed & committed which was so great & I was quite surprised. Even when she was bothered by a wasp she kept to the track which was fantastic considering she was stung by one a few weeks ago so is a bit wary of them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marnie came in to season yesterday .... the next few weeks will be fun!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@Leanne77 I would be tempted to feed Ritter his last meal as a kong or kibble scatter or something to let you have even a few moments of peace before he hits the witching hour. I hear you, Penny is the same way on days she doesn't come to cross country and it's exactly those days I'm super tired and just want to put my feet up. I can usually compromise with some flirt pole sessions and a good chew.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I


O2.0 said:


> @Leanne77 I would be tempted to feed Ritter his last meal as a kong or kibble scatter or something to let you have even a few moments of peace before he hits the witching hour. I hear you, Penny is the same way on days she doesn't come to cross country and it's exactly those days I'm super tired and just want to put my feet up. I can usually compromise with some flirt pole sessions and a good chew.


I forgot he'd got a large coffee wood chew stick, and I've bought him a buffalo horn so after his tea, if he doesn't settle, then I give him something to chew on and that seems to tire him out and calm him down.
I didnt want to get into walking or training in the evening as that's not what I want our routine to be.

We do seem to have gotten back into throwing tantrums, barking and pushing his luck again but I fully expect it to be steps forwards and backwards for a good while yet.
Yesterday at training he was supposed to be doing a recall to front, just a short distance of about 2m. I let go of the lead because it wasnt long enough to cover the 2m. He did a lovely sit and wait but then decided to run straight past me to dash off up the field and run the hedgerow. He did come running back on his recall whistle but again ran straight past me. I tried a 'you'd better do as you're told right now' voice but to no effect. As a last resort I blasted the stop whistle, to my surprise he sat straight away and stayed in place whilst I got hold of his lead.
The positives were he didn't run over to any other dogs and he obeyed the stop whistle 😆🤦‍♀️.
I do look at some of the other dogs and take solace in the fact he's not as bad as them! There is a 9 month old Slovak whose owner cannot get it to do anything, it just leaps around and barks none stop. It's her first ever dog and she didn't make a great choice with breed imo. Gorgeous looking and absolutely huge, dwarfs Ritter, but completely unruly.
Then I look at the 4 month old cocker who is as calm and placid as anything and can do everything much better than my 10 month old hooligan, and wonder where I went wrong!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

We had a MUCH better Saturday than last week!
He went to Cowbag's pet shop and played with a tiny puppy, and I even managed to not be offended when the woman said to her pup "not to be like that!", because Charlie was very happy and energetic .
He might be a nut, but he's my nut, and I quite like him! sometimes

Had a little panic because he wasn't sleeping before training, but thankfully he had a fairly good nap, and was 100% improved from last week!

He was incredibly tolerant of a woman who told him to get down...before he'd even jumped up at her, and I say "off" anyway, so maybe check before you try training someone else's dog?
She actually put her hands on him and sort of pushed him, to keep him down! We moved away from her really quickly! As it happened, hers was the most manic, and worst behaved dog there! 😂
He'll probably be in the Junior class for a while, but I can't wait for him to move up to a more advanced class, I'm expecting and hoping for a better quality of owner 

The French Bulldog people are now completely snubbing us and made a really big point of avoiding us, but it was still staring at Charlie from a distance, so he barked. But everything about this dog is wrong, even the way he stands looks aggressive.
We just distracted Charlie and had no more issues.
Such a shame they don't seem like they're going to leave, most of them do a block of 8 lessons and then don't bother going back 

Our trainer likes to teach them to find our own property. We weren't really able to do this to begin with, because he kept snatching the phone case, but he was SO good! He didn't grab it at all!
Really pleased with him!

He was a bit of a prat in the evening, but eventually settled. I'm blaming the wind.

It's weird what bothers them...he was splashing around in a little stream thing, when a small paper bag floated past. He completely freaked out at it, barking and growling...yet has so far managed to ignore a neighbours Halloween decorations, which include a giant spider, and a ghost/skeleton in a flappy white gown 😂

He can now sit when he sees a squirrel (and good grief, they seem to be running in herds this year!!!), so am hoping his patience and frustration level will improve soon.

I was trying to take a nice 'autumnal' photo of him, but he decided to play tug of war with a bramble instead! Kind of ruined my plan to plant thorny/prickly plants in the garden to deter him from eating them! 😂


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Talking Adolescence with Dr. Kathy Murphy - DogSpeak: Redefining Dog Training


In this episode, Dr. Kathy Murphy joins the podcast to talk about dogs' brains and how they process information during adolescence. Adolescence can be a difficult stage for both dogs and their humans but having better knowledge on what an adolesce...




www.buzzsprout.com





Interesting podcast that someone sent to me about adolescence and behaviour


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Today Ritter hasn't been out. I had a terrible day at work and tbh I couldn't face going out in the rain, being pulled about on the muddy ground and handling a wet and filthy long line. He's had a busy few days so I decided on a rest day.
He's been such a good lad, just lay and snuggled with me. I brought in the large George Barclay bed from the kitchen and that seemed to make a big difference to his evening behaviour. He's settled quickly in it and hasn't made a nuisance of himself, apart from asking for his belly to be scratched.
So perhaps he wasnt comfortable enough on just vet bed as the house is getting colder and draughtier.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Bronte has found his working side the last week. I started off bruised when I first had him, but he got loads better with biting, but we have regressed apparently!
So we had to have some bitey fun to day to try and get some out of his system.
Just to note I don't usually play with him coming at me at that speed, it was more for show and to let him really stretch those legs.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Not feeling very positive again at the moment. It's literally always lurking in my mind whether I can deal with Ritter or whether he goes back to the breeder. I think it's the change in weather and the thought of having to deal with him always attached to me when it's slippery, cold, wet etc.
Last night I was using a fish scraper thing to get my food off the baking tray. He started running around whining, jumping up at the counters and just going a bit beserk. Turns out it was me removing food from the tray which set him off. Then this morning a reflection went across the wall and he started again. He's got no self preservation and will crash into the units, jump up at things and doesnt care where he lands. Is it all going to get better or will he always go beserk at literally everything for the next 13 years or so? Do I potentially want to be restricted on what I do and where I go until I'm 60 because he's too difficult for anybody to look after?
But then the thought of sending him back and being quite cruelly treated until he's found another home doesnt sit well with me and when he's snuggled up next to me, snoozing away I think I couldn't ever give him up.
He's just so completely different to what I'm used to and not at all what I thought I was letting myself in for. The thought of taking him a walk fills me with dread when it should be the highlight of my day.
I dunno, just feeling low about it all and worried I'm not going to be able to cope.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> Not feeling very positive again at the moment. It's literally always lurking in my mind whether I can deal with Ritter or whether he goes back to the breeder. I think it's the change in weather and the thought of having to deal with him always attached to me when it's slippery, cold, wet etc.
> Last night I was using a fish scraper thing to get my food off the baking tray. He started running around whining, jumping up at the counters and just going a bit beserk. Turns out it was me removing food from the tray which set him off. Then this morning a reflection went across the wall and he started again. He's got no self preservation and will crash into the units, jump up at things and doesnt care where he lands. Is it all going to get better or will he always go beserk at literally everything for the next 13 years or so? Do I potentially want to be restricted on what I do and where I go until I'm 60 because he's too difficult for anybody to look after?
> But then the thought of sending him back and being quite cruelly treated until he's found another home doesnt sit well with me and when he's snuggled up next to me, snoozing away I think I couldn't ever give him up.
> He's just so completely different to what I'm used to and not at all what I thought I was letting myself in for. The thought of taking him a walk fills me with dread when it should be the highlight of my day.
> I dunno, just feeling low about it all and worried I'm not going to be able to cope.


I don’t know how much you know of mine and lokis journey. When he was around 5 months I separated from my ex it was very stressful, exhausting and expensive. Loki was wild and very difficult in all areas. I remember sitting one day and crying and I told him he would have to move out . He didn’t obviously. A few years ago we went on holiday he was so reactive and wouldn’t eat I thought I’d never be able to go away again. Don’t get me started on the time I couldn’t keep him still and his insides literally fell out.

Last weekend we went away and he was a dream, I can go to work and leave him free reign, we have lovely walks. I’ve taken a lot of advice on here and it’s really helped.

We still can’t find a new dog sitter but that’s mainly because I’m neurotic not him. We are meeting one this morning.

Chances are if you keep putting the work in he will be just fine. It will get easier and you will laugh about it. I’d sooner chop my arm off than lose Loki now. Some pups are just blooming trying.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Just to add your probably being to hard on yourself most people can’t crack recall but let their dog off anyway. Yesterday we followed a man with two fighting collies, had to re route then got chased by them. He didn’t give a noodle he ruined our run. 

You actually care and want to get it right but remember most folk don’t care half as much.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> Is it all going to get better or will he always go beserk at literally everything for the next 13 years or so?


It's going to get better! 
It's so hard to see in to the future, but those moments where he connects with you, runs off and then runs back to look for you, snuggles up to you..., all of that will build and the annoying teenage stupids will go away - mostly. He will always be a challenging dog because of his breeding, but you guys will get much more in sync, and that will make a huge difference.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Try having 3 like that @Leanne77 !! 

I suppose its what you are used to but all my WL GSDs have been similar in having no self preservation, knock everything over all the time (including me!), bark alot, are full on, everything at 150mph 

Archer is slightly better now he's 8 but still a knobhead. I suppose I'm used to it now & see it as normal but when I went to stay with my sister (she has 2 labs) I realised how nice it was for a couple of days not to be around crazy dogs... but then I missed the chaos!

Honestly, it's just about understanding them, managing the craziness & learning with your dog.

I took my lot out for some tracking training this morning which was great, they are all so different so it's nice to see these differences & train accordingly. Kato bloody cracks me up though. He couldn't decide if he wanted to see the horses first or track. Now I have to be mindful of how I influence these times as if I get too insistent then he can just switch off & then be determined he's not doing anything. But I have learnt now how to be persuasive in a less confrontational way which has been so much better for him.

He did a great track & then he was overjoyed when I told him he could say hello to the horses 🐴

Have you been to see anyone about how to manage things a bit @Leanne77 ? Sometimes just a couple of sessions & making some small changes can really help. Maybe worth it. Kamal Fernandez is the first person I can think of who trains all different breeds of high drive dogs (& has multiple sports dogs himself) & might be worth speaking to.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> Not feeling very positive again at the moment. It's literally always lurking in my mind whether I can deal with Ritter or whether he goes back to the breeder. I think it's the change in weather and the thought of having to deal with him always attached to me when it's slippery, cold, wet etc.
> Last night I was using a fish scraper thing to get my food off the baking tray. He started running around whining, jumping up at the counters and just going a bit beserk. Turns out it was me removing food from the tray which set him off. Then this morning a reflection went across the wall and he started again. He's got no self preservation and will crash into the units, jump up at things and doesnt care where he lands. Is it all going to get better or will he always go beserk at literally everything for the next 13 years or so? Do I potentially want to be restricted on what I do and where I go until I'm 60 because he's too difficult for anybody to look after?
> But then the thought of sending him back and being quite cruelly treated until he's found another home doesnt sit well with me and when he's snuggled up next to me, snoozing away I think I couldn't ever give him up.
> He's just so completely different to what I'm used to and not at all what I thought I was letting myself in for. The thought of taking him a walk fills me with dread when it should be the highlight of my day.
> I dunno, just feeling low about it all and worried I'm not going to be able to cope.


I'm the same! I just called Charlie a bad name about 20 minutes ago, because he grabbed someone's little wicker fence from their front garden, dragged it, pulled it in half, and now there's loads of twigs all over the path! 

A dog growled at him in a shop this morning, so he growled back and then barked, got angry and jumped at me because he was hyped up, so I had to take him outside, plus he has a few signs of possibly being a frustrated greeter at times...and people keep asking if he's "been...?" and making scissor motions at us 

I also had to walk past 12 workmen, and a group of Jehovah Witnesses the other day, while trying to look nonchalant as Charlie got zoomies and I had to control it by letting him rag his squirrel toy for a fair distance.

We've got training in an hour and I feel a bit sick! If he doesn't understand something he nips me! And that bloody Frenchie will probably be there 
He is the worst puppy we've ever had, by a looooooong way, and makes me feel SO incompetent, so I can only imagine what you're going through.
He's 98% perfect-ish, but the bad 2% is BAAAAD....he can be SO sweet (and is to everyone but me!) and then he just turns into Satan, but I have to keep thinking he will improve, there's positive glimmers of who he might turn into when he's older, so I'm clinging onto that hope!
It's taking longer to get to know him and his habits than previous pups, but I'm hoping I'll work him out and we'll get there eventually.

I guess I don't have any good advice, other than, adolescent puppies are tyrants, but we will all get through it, and our brains will be kind and make us forget this stage, and one day we might even want another puppy!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Gemmaa said:


> I'm the same! I just called Charlie a bad name about 20 minutes ago, because he grabbed someone's little wicker fence from their front garden, dragged it, pulled it in half, and now there's loads of twigs all over the path!
> 
> A dog growled at him in a shop this morning, so he growled back and then barked, got angry and jumped at me because he was hyped up, so I had to take him outside, plus he has a few signs of possibly being a frustrated greeter at times...and people keep asking if he's "been...?" and making scissor motions at us
> 
> ...


Loki says it’s called having personality.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> I'm the same! I just called Charlie a bad name about 20 minutes ago, because he grabbed someone's little wicker fence from their front garden, dragged it, pulled it in half, and now there's loads of twigs all over the path!
> 
> A dog growled at him in a shop this morning, so he growled back and then barked, got angry and jumped at me because he was hyped up, so I had to take him outside, plus he has a few signs of possibly being a frustrated greeter at times...and people keep asking if he's "been...?" and making scissor motions at us
> 
> ...


I know it sounds like a load of bullsh*t but these are the dogs we really learn from .... as difficult as that is to hear atm. 

Enjoy your class, you are there to learn not show off (although some people seem to think like that !). I think Charlie sounds amazing & quite a character


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie redeemed himself 
He was distracted to begin with..and at the end...but he rallied round and did everything he needed to..even had a positive interaction with the Frenchie! A little barky, but I just removed him.

I made a point of asking how old the others are. Charlie is still one of the youngest...and one of the best dogs, who was making me feel a bit rubbish, is actually 17 months old, and was still a bit rough. 
One of the other 9 month olds started barking constantly and set some of the others off...the poor owner was really embarrassed, she was one of the first out of the car park 

It's always nice to see others struggle 😂


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> Not feeling very positive again at the moment. It's literally always lurking in my mind whether I can deal with Ritter or whether he goes back to the breeder. I think it's the change in weather and the thought of having to deal with him always.
> I dunno, just feeling low about it all and worried I'm not going to be able to cope.


You are doing a great job with him. I see so much of me and Ava in what you say - sometimes I can’t see that she will ever be able to go off lead. At the moment her new ‘thing’ is me putting her poo in the poo bins which triggers leaping, hysterical barking and her trying to play tuggy with her lead. 
Sometimes you just have to take a (big) step back and look at how far you have come. I am in contact with a couple of other pointer owners and we are all saying the same things which is quite comforting. We will get there (and so will you) but is will take time. 
I have the same concerns about winter walking so have invested in a waist belt and bungee lead - if she can’t be civilised on a long lead she will go on the shorter lead until I am on good enough ground not to be pulled over.



Gemmaa said:


> I guess I don't have any good advice, other than, adolescent puppies are tyrants, but we will all get through it, and our brains will be kind and make us forget this stage, and one day we might even want another puppy!


Absolutely. Often Ava acts like she is totally possessed but then she clambers on to my lap for cuddles and I can’t imagine life without her.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's great news @Gemmaa ! Marnie & I are going to a competitive obedience class tomorrow to start our HW foundations in a formal class. Always a bit scary as obedience people don't usually have knobhead GSDs & aren't as un co-ordinated like me! But they are a really nice bunch so should be a really good day.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Try having 3 like that @Leanne77 !!
> 
> Have you been to see anyone about how to manage things a bit @Leanne77 ? Sometimes just a couple of sessions & making some small changes can really help. Maybe worth it. Kamal Fernandez is the first person I can think of who trains all different breeds of high drive dogs (& has multiple sports dogs himself) & might be worth speaking to.


Not specifically, no. I've spoken to obviously his breeders, other GWP owners and I dont like their advice, it's not particularly helpful and it's too harsh.
Then other people (trainers with alot of experience with police dogs etc) just say I need to be more authoritative.
One class he does is run by a behaviourist but she owns Papillons so I wonder how useful her input would be regarding higher drive, harder temperament dogs. I did speak to her a out the jumping up and his evening antics and she said just to totally ignore it and give him no attention when he does it. Easier said than done when you're sitting on the sofa and he's diving on your head.
I'm hoping Dorntanza who we are going to see next month will be of use. He's a behaviourist and trainer of all breeds but GWPs are what he knows inside out.

We've been to a National Trust property today and it was a mixed bag really. He calmed down after a bit and started to pull less and sniff more which made the actual walking much easier. I did also manage to engage him using treats when he started to react to a couple of passing dogs who were doing something exciting such as chasing a ball. Then he started to react to a nearby family where the kids were climbing trees, swinging a bag about and picking conkers. I got him to hunt for treats instead.
So then we sat in a corner of the courtyard which was very busy and just watched. He's not stressed by it all, just overstimulated by anything remotely interesting going on. Kids running, dogs running, footballs etc really set him off. That's why he never comes off lead, he's a liabilty at the moment and dangerous.
We did walk fairly closely to the sheep and it was a headwind so he could smell as well as see them but he showed zero interest. It would be different if they ran though.

I know he has the capability for self control. Today dogs passed us within lunging distance when we were just sitting and he gave them a mere glance without me having to say a word. He sits and waits calmly and quietly for his food and he even automatically sits when I need to change him to his long line. We need to work on expanding that to way more situations. 

One thing that has hugely improved is his attitude to the car. He no longer drools and can go a whole journey without needing a poo although I usually do still need to stop to let him out. He's much happier to be in there now and does relax.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Not specifically, no. I've spoken to obviously his breeders, other GWP owners and I dont like their advice, it's not particularly helpful and it's too harsh.
> Then other people (trainers with alot of experience with police dogs etc) just say I need to be more authoritative.
> One class he does is run by a behaviourist but she owns Papillons so I wonder how useful her input would be regarding higher drive, harder temperament dogs. I did speak to her a out the jumping up and his evening antics and she said just to totally ignore it and give him no attention when he does it. Easier said than done when you're sitting on the sofa and he's diving on your head.
> I'm hoping Dorntanza who we are going to see next month will be of use. He's a behaviourist and trainer of all breeds but GWPs are what he knows inside out.
> ...


That's why I suggested Kamal. He works with all sorts of high drive dogs, competes in different sports & because he has multiple dogs (BC'S, a Mali & young Giant schnauzer as well as others) would be great to advise on domestics as well 😊


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Not specifically, no. I've spoken to obviously his breeders, other GWP owners and I dont like their advice, it's not particularly helpful and it's too harsh.
> Then other people (trainers with alot of experience with police dogs etc) just say I need to be more authoritative.
> One class he does is run by a behaviourist but she owns Papillons so I wonder how useful her input would be regarding higher drive, harder temperament dogs. I did speak to her a out the jumping up and his evening antics and she said just to totally ignore it and give him no attention when he does it. Easier said than done when you're sitting on the sofa and he's diving on your head.
> I'm hoping Dorntanza who we are going to see next month will be of use. He's a behaviourist and trainer of all breeds but GWPs are what he knows inside out.
> ...


You are probably the best owner for him. I wouldn't want him to be dominated into a dog who can't show his personality. 
You have a teenager who's brain is rewiring and therefore what you teach him one day may very well be forgotten the next. And a breed (and individual) with a strong innate need to see movement and want to do something about it. 
I wonder if you need to have a tally of good vs bad stuff? You might find that he does more good stuff than you realise. All those 1% improvements add up over time. 

Bronte is a massive fat head with no sense of self preservation. My knee is currently sore and bruised where he decided to retrieve at speed. He thinks he's a small dog I'm sure as he will try and squeeze on the sofa between you, or sit on your lap. He's crated a lot because he just can't be trusted not to destroy the house or wind up the other dogs.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks everybody, feeling much more positive. I think I just got up this morning, knowing we were going somewhere busy and knew it was going to be hard work and felt down about it.
We ended the walk on a positive though because he found a bottle and we had a good play before returning to the car.
Tomorrow he's got a secure field so he can have a good blast.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> That's great news @Gemmaa ! Marnie & I are going to a competitive obedience class tomorrow to start our HW foundations in a formal class. Always a bit scary as obedience people don't usually have knobhead GSDs & aren't as un co-ordinated like me! But they are a really nice bunch so should be a really good day.


I hope it goes well for you both!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Gemmaa how did the class go?

Tonight's class for us was horrendous. The trainer attempted to show me the agility way of training a wait using a toy. Ritter hit the roof and just went mental when he saw the toy. She expected a filled Kong to distract him but there was no chance. Then she tried telling him off to no avail then she thought giving him the toy would calm him down, and he would just go lie down with it but it was a squeaky one so again, no chance. So then she tried to remove the toy but he refused to give it up so she scattered treats which he ignored. 
I had to take him outside so he would calm down but he was just too far gone. I even had a battle trying to get him in the car, where he continued to kick off. So we simply went home where I then had to try and bring him down before bedtime.
She said his prey drive was pretty extreme and likened it to OCD in collies. I have noticed that Ritter is starting to react to reflections and lights he sees on the walls now.

Can you imagine if he reacted that way to a kid he saw playing with a toy, and slipped his lead or his collar broke? It doesn't bear thinking about.
I'm really not sure I can cope with that level of prey drive, or that it's even suitable in the kind of built up area we live. I really think he could be a danger, not because he's aggressive, but because his reactions to everything are so extreme and predatory drift would be a real possibility.

I just hope the progress we've made with him being in the car hasn't been damaged.

My thoughts go from one way to another multiple times a day, every day. He does something well or we take a step forward and I think 'great, we're getting there' then he reacts to something and I'm on the verge of messaging his breeder to send him back. I know they'd blame me for his behaviour - I didnt reign him in enough, I've given him too much freedom etc - but his behaviour just isn't normal. I think it goes beyond him being an adolescent.

I really could do with videoing him but it's impossible when I'm hanging on to him for dear life.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Oh don't give up on him @Leanne77 , he is still so young and at such a difficult age. What are the chances of him slipping his collar just as a child is in the vicinity with a toy?

I can honestly relate. When I got Alfie my plans were to do Agility competitions. Well, doing that was the least of my worries, I could barely even walk him. In all my life and having had a lot of dogs I had never come across the aggression Alfie displayed. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason to it. At 10 weeks old he was bullying both my other jacks at home.

I tried classes but was always told to stand alone in the corner with him kicking off even though the other dogs were no where near him. I felt singled out and it was achieving nothing.

I would more often than not come home from walks in tears. Alfie at this point was muzzled and still being only a pup, small and cute I was getting looks and criticism from other dog walkers. Eventually I managed to blag a key for the local park gates and would go there before it opened so Alfie could have a stress free run. Other times we would use the tennis courts.

I had a little group I walked with but Alfie worried them so much that it was decided it was better if we didn't walk together anymore. They were worried about their own dogs being influenced by him. I hate to admit that I seriously considered having him PTS. There was no way I would of even attempted to rehome such a nasty dog.

I won't say it has been easy but over the years little by little things improved. I was able to remove his muzzle and even walk him off lead. People see him and ask if it is the same dog. He is 10 now and 98% of the time a model dog. I think I love him even more because he has been such a challenge and eventually with trust and love came good.

You have a lovely dog in the making


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Kaily I don't want to give up on him but I'm not sure I'm equipped to deal with his behaviours, or that I even want to. I also have to think of my 65 year old Mum who is with him during the day and lacks confidence and knowledge.

He may not slip his lead or his collar break but him pulling me over and me letting go of the lead is a real possibility.

If I could guarantee it was adolescence, or that it would pass as he matured or that it was a simple case of working on impulse control then I'd muddle through it but I feel like I'm walking on eggshells all the time.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I agree with @Kaily I’m not even sure it is prey drive sounds more like over excitement. Loki would be the same in that environment as he gets a little obsessed with things. This was followed by the trainer quickly trying lots of things then throwing you out. As a teacher this is not great teaching. Can you get him in a harness ? I feel it gives more control.

Would it be worth reducing the classes and just spending time having fun together?


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

I know you don't @Leanne77 , I was just trying to give you some hope of how things can and do turn around.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, it is over excitement too because he's off the scale with that trait as well.
He does wear a harness out and about but not in classes. The trainer suggested one with a front attachment but I find harnesses give less control in general.
We'll be cutting our classes down once a couple of them have come to their 6 week end so then he'll have his Sunday one and ringcraft plus his mantrailing now and then.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> @Gemmaa how did the class go?
> 
> Tonight's class for us was horrendous. The trainer attempted to show me the agility way of training a wait using a toy. Ritter hit the roof and just went mental when he saw the toy. She expected a filled Kong to distract him but there was no chance. Then she tried telling him off to no avail then she thought giving him the toy would calm him down, and he would just go lie down with it but it was a squeaky one so again, no chance. So then she tried to remove the toy but he refused to give it up so she scattered treats which he ignored.
> I had to take him outside so he would calm down but he was just too far gone. I even had a battle trying to get him in the car, where he continued to kick off. So we simply went home where I then had to try and bring him down before bedtime.
> ...


Why would anyone train a calm , controlled exercise with a toy? I would never do that with any of mine at a young age. That's something I would build up to very gradually. They simply wouldn't be able to do it so its setting them up for failure.

I honestly think you need to go back to foundations with him @Leanne77. High drive dogs are great but getting solid foundations in place, on/off cues clear as well as getting them to manage frustration but with really low level triggers initially so they can then build on their skills.

I did this course as a bronze student several years ago & it was really useful but I would still find someone who you can work with in person.








Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH300: Worked Up! Understand, assess, and soothe arousal in sport dogs


Online dog training classes for obedience, rally, agility, tracking, nosework, dog behavior, freestyle, and foundation skills.




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Maybe you are right Leanne and you two are not the best match ?
I have noticed some B.C. s tend to get the OCD behaviour when they are bored/under stimulated /exercised. 
Not saying you are not doing stuff with him, but some dogs have a higher drive than others and not content without a lot of input.
As you say, you work and come home with not much energy and Ritter has been left all day and then he really probably needs an outlet for his pent up energy, like a good walk /run around before he could concentrate on a training class. Maybe why he was so OTT with the toy etc.
From what you have said you mostly want to relax after work ( no walks ) apart from the classes so it sounds too much for you and not enough for him.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think you’re doing as much as you can, so only got a couple of things to put in the mix…

Is he on a high (over about 20%) food. I know he’s probably still growing but it might be worth putting him on a low protein food (temporarily) to see if there’s any effect. I’ve seen a lot of difference in behaviour by doing the low protein experiment and it does/doesn’t allow you to rule out the issue of too much protein making him batty.

Have you thought about discussing temporary medication with your Vet? Not as a cure but to give you a window to work on the things that might make most difference for you. A calm dog can learn better and you’ll maybe at least get some stronger foundations to curb his unwanted behaviours.

If he’s bonkers about toys, can you get past the “Gimme, gimme, gimme” stage to the “OK, what do I need to do to get it?” stage? Sometimes it takes a while but it will come eventually.

I didn’t read back over the whole thread so maybe you’ve already been here.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> Maybe you are right Leanne and you two are not the best match ?
> I have noticed some B.C. s tend to get the OCD behaviour when they are bored/under stimulated /exercised.
> Not saying you are not doing stuff with him, but some dogs have a higher drive than others and not content without a lot of input.
> As you say, you work and come home with not much energy and Ritter has been left all day and then he really probably needs an outlet for his pent up energy, like a good walk /run around before he could concentrate on a training class. Maybe why he was so OTT with the toy etc.
> From what you have said you mostly want to relax after work ( no walks ) apart from the classes so it sounds too much for you and not enough for him.


He is not bored, underestimulated or under exercised.
Ritter is not left all day, he is at home with my Mum and I'm usually home by noon. I did not say I wanted to relax after work, or not do any walks. I said in the evenings I like to chill out and watch TV, that's after Ritter has had plenty of input from me.
He does get exercise before a class - I've tried no exercise and exercise but it makes no difference to his behaviour.
No offence, but you obviously don't know me that well.

@Linda Weasel , I'll have to check his food but he eats such a variety that it's difficult to work out. It's interesting you suggest meducation from the vets as that's exactly what the trainer (who is also a behaviourist) suggested last night.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> If I could guarantee it was adolescence, or that it would pass as he matured or that it was a simple case of working on impulse control then I'd muddle through it but I feel like I'm walking on eggshells all the time.


Is there any way you could book a session or two with Kamal Fernandez or someone like him? I know @Cleo38 mentioned him...

The reason I suggest that is that it really makes a difference when you have someone who is truly experienced with this type of dog. I cringed reading about using a toy for a wait. That's someone who just hasn't dealt with this type of dog. And she may be a fabulous trainer, but she doesn't know what to do with "pushy" and drive as opposed to a more collie type drive. 

It's honestly scary when you see how much there is in the drive bank so to speak and it's SO helpful to have someone next to you, holding your hand through working with that drive. I definitely needed that with Bates. The gal who worked with us said sometimes you have to find where that point of no return is so that you can learn to work right up to it and then bring them back down.
The more practice they get going up in drive and then bringing themselves back down, the better they get at it. 
Denise Fenzi did a lot of that with her dog Dice, and those videos are still around I believe. I hope so, it was good stuff. Scatter was her go-to with him to get him using his nose and back in to his thinking brain. 

The only way to know if this is a stage or permanent is to go through that hell with him  
Every time you see a glimer of sanity in him, make a note. See if those moments of sanity are getting more frequent. I think you'll find that they are. 
The moments of assholery may get stronger, but not necessarily more frequent. That's a good litmus test


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Is there any way you could book a session or two with Kamal Fernandez or someone like him? I know @Cleo38 mentioned him...
> 
> The reason I suggest that is that it really makes a difference when you have someone who is truly experienced with this type of dog. I cringed reading about using a toy for a wait. That's someone who just hasn't dealt with this type of dog. And she may be a fabulous trainer, but she doesn't know what to do with "pushy" and drive as opposed to a more collie type drive.
> 
> ...


Yes, I was thinking of the videos with Dice. What I really liked with those is how he was eventually able to decide what he could do & chose that rather than kicking off at other dogs, etc. It was so amazing to see how he had learned so much & DF was so very aware of him & allowed him to decide. 

I also think (& I really, really hope you don't take this the wrong way @Leanne77) is that you need to decide if he is staying or not. To keep having the option that he could be returned to the breeder is not helping you with him really being 'your' dog & stopping you really bonding with him. I know that I felt like this with Kato at one time & I felt that he could be an amazing dog yet I wasn't bringing out the best in him & maybe he should go back & find a more competent owner. I honestly feel that he sensed I wasn't fully committed to him & this again didn't help our relationship.

I think you need to decide & then if he is staying then accept him for who he is atm. Take a step back from formal training & really get to understand him; what motivates him, what he finds stressful, how you can make things easier, etc. Just enjoy him for a bit, play, etc & get some foundation training started again. 

You also sound very up & down with him & I wonder if maybe there is something going on with you as well. You usually sound confident with your dogs & am wondering if you are suffering from anxiety (at times) which is making things worse for you.

Again, apologies if this is out of line as it's really not meant to be


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Another quirky suggestion from boxer HQ Loki respons really well to dog massage for calming.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I know I'm really up and down with him, and know I need to make a firm decision. I've suffered anxiety for years so definitely not out of line Natasha. In all honesty, I dont truly think he's going anywhere, I know I've not given him a fair chance and I know I really need to get my sh1t together.

I'll see what Matt Ball says next Wednesday first of all. He's ex military dogs but also well renowned in the gundog world so I realise his techniques might not be to my liking.

Tbh, I'm getting bored of me moaning myself, so I apologise to you guys.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> I know I'm really up and down with him, and know I need to make a firm decision. I've suffered anxiety for years so definitely not out of line Natasha. In all honesty, I dont truly think he's going anywhere, I know I've not given him a fair chance and I know I really need to get my sh1t together.
> 
> I'll see what Matt Ball says next Wednesday first of all. He's ex military dogs but also well renowned in the gundog world so I realise his techniques might not be to my liking.
> 
> Tbh, I'm getting bored of me moaning myself, so I apologise to you guys.


Tip of the iceberg compared to the amount of Loki threads!


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Leanne77 said:


> He is not bored, underestimulated or under exercised.
> Ritter is not left all day, he is at home with my Mum and I'm usually home by noon. I did not say I wanted to relax after work, or not do any walks. I said in the evenings I like to chill out and watch TV, that's after Ritter has had plenty of input from me.
> He does get exercise before a class - I've tried no exercise and exercise but it makes no difference to his behaviour.
> No offence, but you obviously don't know me that well.
> ...


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Dog Walker Woman , yep, totally stressed and the thought of not having to accommodate a dog and the restrictions he's putting on my life is appealing but that's nothing to do with not having the energy or motivation to walk, play or train him

I'm realising I'm doing too much with him actually, which I've been told on here, and by people I know, but that's only just sinking in. He's not a bad dog, he just needs me to step up and get the right help.

Scentwork went well tonight and I've told them I'm giving it a break for a while, which they agreed was the right way to go. Also got another behaviourist contact who is experienced with high drive and difficult dogs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I know I'm really up and down with him, and know I need to make a firm decision. I've suffered anxiety for years so definitely not out of line Natasha. In all honesty, I dont truly think he's going anywhere, I know I've not given him a fair chance and I know I really need to get my sh1t together.
> 
> I'll see what Matt Ball says next Wednesday first of all. He's ex military dogs but also well renowned in the gundog world so I realise his techniques might not be to my liking.
> 
> Tbh, I'm getting bored of me moaning myself, so I apologise to you guys.


Phew! Never know how posts come across at times especially if people aren't having a great time 😊

Don't apologise for moaning, we've all been there & understand.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I have been following your journey with the handsome Ritter from the beginning and very aware of the workshops training etc you have done with him.
Please don't think I meant you weren't motivated to do stuff with him as I know you are. 
I must admit I did think he probably needed a last walk however short but that's your decision and you need to look after your own resources.
He does sound 'extra' but then GWPs sound a challenging breed exercise and training wise, for anyone !
You have just sounded so stressed and unsure of him at times, but then that is just par for the course with a young dog anyway .

Good luck with the behaviourist and finding the right solution for you both


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

We are now on day 10 if Marnie's first season & it's going OK so far. Very interesting to see how behaviour can change so very quickly tho!

The boys (both entire) were very interested initially but stopped bothering her when told & everyone was pretty relaxed but Marnie's aggression did start to increase (don't blame her tbh!). Definite increase in guarding me & the sofa from the boys in the evening, something we had been working on anyway but this needed a swift intervention from me as that sort of behaviour is NOT acceptable.

I think it was day 8 (evening) when things changed & Kato became very whiny around her. Following her, etc so he had to be crated. Marnie is in her kennel in the morning after walking/training then the afternoon I have to crate & rotate her & Kato. Archer hasn't been fussed at all luckily.

Can't wait for it all to be over with


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Ugh, I have zero desire to deal with intact bitches, especially not with intact males in the same household! You are a brave woman!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Ugh, I have zero desire to deal with intact bitches, especially not with intact males in the same household! You are a brave woman!


Poor Kato, I feel so sorry for him. He was very whiny this morning but then we went out for a walk, just us to. It's funny as he is VERY full of himself & has gone back to being Mr Independent who runs off doing his own thing. Usually we walk & he is right next to me but the past couple of days he's been way ahead & I have to call him back, this hasn't happened since his teenage period.

We got back & he didn;t want his breakfast ... then he did ... then he didn't ..... Archer was on stand by in case he might be allowed it!

Anyway, he's ok again again now. Marnie is in her kennel so he can relax


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I think we're going to try and stay away from dogs for a while, lots of them are starting to just lunge and snap at him, it's quite nasty.
Sometimes he deserves the little growls, because he can be rough...but like this morning, this massive Viszla just totally flipped out at him with no warning, and he was actually being polite and calm.
Charlie barked back, so I just moved him away quickly to calm down.
He was fine with a Labrador we met afterwards.
I'm really hoping to keep him dog friendly, but I think other dogs are going to make it hard! 🙈


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I think it's a tricky time for adolescent dogs, they're neither pups nor adults and many dogs can take offence because they can see them as a threat but they're also likely to be inexperienced enough to bully easily.
Ritter tends to get alot of dogs backs up because they dont like his OTT energy, it was exactly the same with Flynn. Flynn just wanted to be left alone but other dogs honed in on him, usually trotting straight past the other 2 to get to him, because his vibes just drew them over and it was never for a friendly greeting. Fortunately Jed was amazing at diffusing things and his calm intervention took the attention off Flynn and allowed us to move away.
I anticipate it's going to be exactly the same with Ritter but GWPs aren't easy pushovers so it remains to be seen how he will turn out.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Ava was awesome at gundog training today and my sister came along to watch and brought her camera so…

Loose lead walking










Sit stay - she finds this really difficult but actually managed 30s at 30m.









Retrieve









And working on steadiness in the sit while I threw dummies around her









She did lose the plot a bit in the middle of the lesson but I just took her for a bit of a mooch around to reset her and then she was able to focus again. She is getting so much better at being able to focus and at getting her focus back after she has been distracted.
We now have a week off and then we are starting group classes. It could all go horribly wrong but she needs to learn to work around other dogs…


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Had a much better class tonight after Ritter's total meltdown last week. As I expected, he entered the hall completely wound up because of how we left last week and his last impression of being there. He didn't kick off, but he was a totally coiled spring ready to just go at the slightest thing. I could not get his attention at all and he was trembling on high alert. I very nearly walked out tbh as he's literally draining me and I'm finding I've got less and less energy to cope. He soon realised nothing of much interest was happening though and he settled, albeit still tense. We managed to get through all the exercises but he wasnt on form at all, really distracted, so I used far more treats and commands than I wanted to.
It's the test next Monday and I'm dreading it but the trainer has said I can arrive early and get him settled and calmed down before we start. I just hope he's not in extra d1ckhead mood.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Couldn't make my training class last weekend as the bloody clutch on van had gone. So we've been working on heelwork foundations at home. We can't go anywhere apart from our usual walks due to her being in season. Should be ending soon & we can start going back over the park to proof exercises, etc.

We've also been practising running round blinds (search exercise in IGP). She needs to be fast but also tight to the blind so I put an extra pole in to control this & make sure she's not running wide.. She's fab at this, she's got such great body awareness.

And we have been adding elements of the back & hold exercise as well. She loves to bark so this is so much fun for her, but as well as barking she also needs to learn to stop which she actually picked up alot better than I expected.

Started to work on training with the dumb bell. Just short atm, no pick up yet just purely the hold. I want her to really want the DB & the hold to be intense & firm but calm. In IGP the DB must not be chewed or rolled around in their mouths. She's great & am so pleased with her progress.

She is so much fun to train, crazy girl but so funny 

@Dimwit such lovely pics of Ava. Hope the group classes go well. We are going to my IGP club next weekend so will be interesting to see how Marnie is being around other fogs again .... hoping the gobby little witch act doesn't start up again 

@Gemmaa , that's such a shame but you are doing the right thing by keeping away as it won't help. Is there anyone you can meet up with occasionally?

@Leanne77 , can you not postpone the test & just work on getting him in to a more focused state for now?


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Started to work on training with the dumb bell. Just short atm, no pick up yet just purely the hold. I want her to really want the DB & the hold to be intense & firm but calm. In IGP the DB must not be chewed or rolled around in their mouths. She's great & am so pleased with her progress.
> 
> She is so much fun to train, crazy girl but so funny


One thing I've not cracked with Bronte is munching on the toy. He's got loads better at not doing it when I have hold of it (that was a safety issue!), but he literally cannot stop chewing when he has something in his mouth. It's not something I've actively tried to train though, it's one of those training issues that's been noted but isn't a priority. I should make a list of things to train in priority order really and see how long it is 😂 

I love it when you really relish training your dog. Having a dog who is engaged and enthusiastic makes it loads more fun and rewarding.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Cleo38, I'm not overly worried about the test tbh. The trainer has said we'll pass but so far we've all been using treats, which is not allowed in the test.
There is another dog in class which is worse than Ritter in many respects, her obedience isn't as good, she has these ear splitting barking bouts and she also lacks focus. That dog is 6 years old.
If we fail, we fail.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> One thing I've not cracked with Bronte is munching on the toy. He's got loads better at not doing it when I have hold of it (that was a safety issue!), but he literally cannot stop chewing when he has something in his mouth. It's not something I've actively tried to train though, it's one of those training issues that's been noted but isn't a priority. I should make a list of things to train in priority order really and see how long it is 😂
> 
> I love it when you really relish training your dog. Having a dog who is engaged and enthusiastic makes it loads more fun and rewarding.


I definitely think with some dogs the chewing is self rewarding & something they almost can't help. With Archer he used to love to roll the DB right back in his mouth. Now whilst a full grip is required in protection exercises (biting the sleeve) the preferred hold of a DB in IGP is just behind the front canine teeth. But although he didn't chew (he kept it there) it used to drive me insane so I spent ages re-training it so it would sit how I wanted it. Am lucky in that Archer is the sort of dog who was is motivated as my pickyness could have had an effect on the overall exercise. I wouldn't do it again tbh.

And yes, having a dog who is so engaged & enthusiastic is amazing. Both Archer & Marnie are like this & so easy in most ways. Kato (my middle dog) is not usually like that & makes me work hard although today for some reason he is in a really playful mood so now I am supposed to drop everything & play when he wants ..... & of course I do!! 



Leanne77 said:


> @Cleo38, I'm not overly worried about the test tbh. The trainer has said we'll pass but so far we've all been using treats, which is not allowed in the test.
> There is another dog in class which is worse than Ritter in many respects, her obedience isn't as good, she has these ear splitting barking bouts and she also lacks focus. That dog is 6 years old.
> If we fail, we fail.


I was just thinking about Ritter & his mindset really & how it would benefit you both by doing a test if he was struggling a bit.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I moan so much about Ritter that I need to celebrate the good days too. I felt like I took a totally different dog to class tonight. He was quiet, settled, didnt trash any of the items when searching and was generally calm and collected. He ignored everything going on in the room, compared to last night when he got wound up by the most mundane of things.
I think I've worked out it's down to the energy in the room. The dogs and handlers in scentwork are all chilled out and the vibe is easy going, relaxed. In his KCGCDS class alot of the dogs are noisy, hyper and it's a bit chaotic tbh. I think that feeds his natural tendency for excitement and over arousal.

But anyway, so pleased with him tonight, best behaviour and performance to date.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> I moan so much about Ritter that I need to celebrate the good days too. I felt like I took a totally different dog to class tonight. He was quiet, settled, didnt trash any of the items when searching and was generally calm and collected. He ignored everything going on in the room, compared to last night when he got wound up by the most mundane of things.
> I think I've worked out it's down to the energy in the room. The dogs and handlers in scentwork are all chilled out and the vibe is easy going, relaxed. In his KCGCDS class alot of the dogs are noisy, hyper and it's a bit chaotic tbh. I think that feeds his natural tendency for excitement and over arousal.
> 
> But anyway, so pleased with him tonight, best behaviour and performance to date.


That’s awesome - well done Ritter (and you). It does sound like you have worked out what winds him up - hopefully it will help. If nothing else I know that I always feel better if I have a ‘reason’ for Ava being an idiot


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

We've actually had a pretty good week, he's still quite a knob with some handling things, so heaven help us if he ever needs treatment for anything 😂, and he's also taken to throwing a kong from the top of the stairs 😬
However, I've discovered the joys of little frozen beef cubes!
They thaw out really quickly, and have been such a game changer for training purposes!

I've managed to distract him from dogs, and had him sitting while two walked past, including one where the owner usually laughs at him.
This morning he calmed down and sat while a Bull Mastiff walked past! He LOVES that dog and has, slightly creepily, tracked him to a field before, so I think that was quite amazing progress 

We went to the park yesterday and he recalled TWICE! Which really doesn't sound like a big deal, but he usually completely ignores me the whole time we're out, and he was looking at a dog....so I'm REALLY happy! 

We walked through again this morning and there were looooads of dogs, he sniffed two who were friendly enough, but I decided not to push our luck and we walked straight through, and Charlie didn't look back!
Really happy with that, I think I'll be able to get the dog obsession under control quite easily (might have just jinxed it though! )

He's also taken to walking next to me a lot more often, he doesn't usually pull anyway, normally in front sniffing everything...he's actually acknowledging me and checking in a lot more often.
He's been really decent this week 😁
I'm going to be really popular at training this weekend, with my bag of raw meat! 😂

Also, OH is at his parents in Wales this week...his mum has a 6 month old working line Golden Retriever......from what I've heard, I think we can ALL feel good about our dogs! 😅


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's great @Gemmaa, well done you & Charlie!!! 

Have you heard of Chirag Patel's Bucket Game? this is great for helping with handling. I used this with Archer when getting him used to the blaster for drying him off


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> That's great @Gemmaa, well done you & Charlie!!!
> 
> Have you heard of Chirag Patel's Bucket Game? this is great for helping with handling. I used this with Archer when getting him used to the blaster for drying him off


Ooh sounds good! I'll check it out!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Hmmm, Ritter's assessment didn't go well at all. He was in a total meltdown the whole time. Matt told me there was nothing he could do with him because he's so over threshold and that training could never occur with a dog in such a high state. He said that he needs medicating by the vet to bring him down to a level where he's manageable. He said that he was too much for me to deal with and I could probably never provide him with the work level he needs.
He also said that he was showing aggression and he wasnt prepared to take the lead off me to try and do some work with him himself because Ritter would bite.
So now I'm left with the dilemma of trying to work through these things he's got going on, or admit defeat that me personally, and the area we live is not suitable for such a dog.
He also said I'd not put in the basic training and had left it too late for any kind of gundog work. I can take that on the chin, there are other sport options, and training things like sit stays are not an issue.
It's his mental state and extreme behaviour that is the issue.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> Hmmm, Ritter's assessment didn't go well at all. He was in a total meltdown the whole time. Matt told me there was nothing he could do with him because he's so over threshold and that training could never occur with a dog in such a high state. He said that he needs medicating by the vet to bring him down to a level where he's manageable. He said that he was too much for me to deal with and I could probably never provide him with the work level he needs.
> He also said that he was showing aggression and he wasnt prepared to take the lead off me to try and do some work with him himself because Ritter would bite.
> So now I'm left with the dilemma of trying to work through these things he's got going on, or admit defeat that me personally, and the area we live is not suitable for such a dog.
> He also said I'd not put in the basic training and had left it too late for any kind of gundog work. I can take that on the chin, there are other sport options, and training things like sit stays are not an issue.
> It's his mental state and extreme behaviour that is the issue.


Can you get a film clip of him like this?

I’m finding it really difficult to understand why the trainer is recommending medication and saying he would bite ? Is he acting aggressively or just being a teenage numpty ? I’m only saying this from what you have described and what I’ve seen on instagram he looks like a lovely boy. 

I think if you could film people could really help (not me I’m clueless but others).

I feel a little bit like your problem isn’t Ritter but the trainers your using. I could be completely wrong. What’s he like when your having a normal day no training ? Just a walk and play in the garden?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

It's really difficult to describe and tbh, I do want to film it. I mentioned it today but the trainer just said he'd speak to Ritter's breeder if they needed 'proof'.
I dont think Ritter is aggressive, but he does redirect and I can see how, when he gets over threshold, that he could potentially bite.
The circumstance today was Matt was stood talking to me and Ritter was eyeing him, barking. It wasn't exactly friendly but I dont think he would've clamped on Matt's arm as he claimed he would.
A normal day with him is hard work. It's not just his behaviour when we're doing stuff, he also goes into a meltdown over nothing. We hadn't even done anything with him at all, other than bring him into the barn with us so we could go through some classroom theory stuff when it all started. 
Three qualified behaviourists have now said he's extreme, two of which are very well respected. His reactions to literally everything are not normal. A new development is chasing reflections. We've gone a whole summer with sunlight glinting off things in the house but it's only now he wants to jump and squeal at them.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> Hmmm, Ritter's assessment didn't go well at all. He was in a total meltdown the whole time. Matt told me there was nothing he could do with him because he's so over threshold and that training could never occur with a dog in such a high state. He said that he needs medicating by the vet to bring him down to a level where he's manageable. He said that he was too much for me to deal with and I could probably never provide him with the work level he needs.
> He also said that he was showing aggression and he wasnt prepared to take the lead off me to try and do some work with him himself because Ritter would bite.
> So now I'm left with the dilemma of trying to work through these things he's got going on, or admit defeat that me personally, and the area we live is not suitable for such a dog.
> He also said I'd not put in the basic training and had left it too late for any kind of gundog work. I can take that on the chin, there are other sport options, and training things like sit stays are not an issue.
> It's his mental state and extreme behaviour that is the issue.


Do you think he's aggressive? 
Do you think you can manage him? 

I think you need to decide for yourself and not be swayed by experts. You're not a novice dog owner and you can make an informed decision on what you can and can't deal with. 

Medication is an option, particularly if you're dealing with obsessive behaviors.
But I think it you can get a hold of Ken Ramirez (was that who @Cleo38 recommended?) that would be great too.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Leanne77 said:


> Hmmm, Ritter's assessment didn't go well at all. He was in a total meltdown the whole time. Matt told me there was nothing he could do with him because he's so over threshold and that training could never occur with a dog in such a high state. He said that he needs medicating by the vet to bring him down to a level where he's manageable. He said that he was too much for me to deal with and I could probably never provide him with the work level he needs.
> He also said that he was showing aggression and he wasnt prepared to take the lead off me to try and do some work with him himself because Ritter would bite.
> So now I'm left with the dilemma of trying to work through these things he's got going on, or admit defeat that me personally, and the area we live is not suitable for such a dog.
> He also said I'd not put in the basic training and had left it too late for any kind of gundog work. I can take that on the chin, there are other sport options, and training things like sit stays are not an issue.
> It's his mental state and extreme behaviour that is the issue.


I know it is not what you planned for Ritter but could you maybe change direction and try Agility? He may well enjoy the chance to burn energy and have fun whilst still learning.

Sometimes we have to adapt our dreams and try other avenues. I had big plans for Alfie but his personality didn't match what I wanted to do. We muddled through and get on just fine with what we can


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> It's really difficult to describe and tbh, I do want to film it. I mentioned it today but the trainer just said he'd speak to Ritter's breeder if they needed 'proof'.
> I dont think Ritter is aggressive, but he does redirect and I can see how, when he gets over threshold, that he could potentially bite.
> The circumstance today was Matt was stood talking to me and Ritter was eyeing him, barking. It wasn't exactly friendly but I dont think he would've clamped on Matt's arm as he claimed he would.
> A normal day with him is hard work. It's not just his behaviour when we're doing stuff, he also goes into a meltdown over nothing. We hadn't even done anything with him at all, other than bring him into the barn with us so we could go through some classroom theory stuff when it all started.
> Three qualified behaviourists have now said he's extreme, two of which are very well respected. His reactions to literally everything are not normal. A new development is chasing reflections. We've gone a whole summer with sunlight glinting off things in the house but it's only now he wants to jump and squeal at them.





Leanne77 said:


> It's really difficult to describe and tbh, I do want to film it. I mentioned it today but the trainer just said he'd speak to Ritter's breeder if they needed 'proof'.
> I dont think Ritter is aggressive, but he does redirect and I can see how, when he gets over threshold, that he could potentially bite.
> The circumstance today was Matt was stood talking to me and Ritter was eyeing him, barking. It wasn't exactly friendly but I dont think he would've clamped on Matt's arm as he claimed he would.
> A normal day with him is hard work. It's not just his behaviour when we're doing stuff, he also goes into a meltdown over nothing. We hadn't even done anything with him at all, other than bring him into the barn with us so we could go through some classroom theory stuff when it all started.
> Three qualified behaviourists have now said he's extreme, two of which are very well respected. His reactions to literally everything are not normal. A new development is chasing reflections. We've gone a whole summer with sunlight glinting off things in the house but it's only now he wants to jump and squeal at them.


I would definitely try and film it. My trainer used a body cam so we could sit down after and look at his body language. There was a time I considered muzzling Loki as I was so worried about his behaviour. 

I stripped it right back, reduced walks, walks at quiet times of the day, more field hire time, more scent stuff at home. Dog massage helped.

But as @O2.2 said do you think you can manage him? There is no shame if it’s not working.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Do you think he's aggressive?
> Do you think you can manage him?
> 
> I think you need to decide for yourself and not be swayed by experts. You're not a novice dog owner and you can make an informed decision on what you can and can't deal with.
> ...


Kamal Fernandez. He has done alot of stuff regarding overarousal, etc. I trained with him when Archer was young & he was great.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> It's really difficult to describe and tbh, I do want to film it. I mentioned it today but the trainer just said he'd speak to Ritter's breeder if they needed 'proof'.
> I dont think Ritter is aggressive, but he does redirect and I can see how, when he gets over threshold, that he could potentially bite.
> The circumstance today was Matt was stood talking to me and Ritter was eyeing him, barking. It wasn't exactly friendly but I dont think he would've clamped on Matt's arm as he claimed he would.
> A normal day with him is hard work. It's not just his behaviour when we're doing stuff, he also goes into a meltdown over nothing. We hadn't even done anything with him at all, other than bring him into the barn with us so we could go through some classroom theory stuff when it all started.
> Three qualified behaviourists have now said he's extreme, two of which are very well respected. His reactions to literally everything are not normal. A new development is chasing reflections. We've gone a whole summer with sunlight glinting off things in the house but it's only now he wants to jump and squeal at them.


Will he listen at all in that state? I'm wondering if he just needs to be told what to do, and for that thing to be something he knows really well. Maybe do some place/mat work with him and get that REALLY solid so you can get him to stay put when you just want to stand and listen. It's not him doing nothing, it's still work, but it gives him a focus as well as keeping him still. 
I can feel the anguish and how torn you are about him.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

The trouble is Kamal would not be cheap, and he's a fair distance away, I can't keep travelling down to Kent for 1-2-1's. 
Trying other things with him is not a problem, there are many options. Matt said tracking would be ideal but that I'd have to track miles to satisfy his drive. I can only see agility as exacerbating the problem tbh. I tried it with Flynn, who was only a fraction as wired as Ritter, and he couldn't handle the arousal levels.

No, I don't think he's aggressive, he usually loves everybody he meets but then again GWPs and Drahthaars in particular have a bad rep for temperament.

I personally don't think I have what it takes to handle a dog like him, in the place I live with the things I can provide for a dog.

Of course I dont want to let him go, I love him to bits but whether we are a good match is a different thing.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> The trouble is Kamal would not be cheap, and he's a fair distance away, I can't keep travelling down to Kent for 1-2-1's.
> Trying other things with him is not a problem, there are many options. Matt said tracking would be ideal but that I'd have to track miles to satisfy his drive. I can only see agility as exacerbating the problem tbh. I tried it with Flynn, who was only a fraction as wired as Ritter, and he couldn't handle the arousal levels.
> 
> No, I don't think he's aggressive, he usually loves everybody he meets but then again GWPs and Drahthaars in particular have a bad rep for temperament.
> ...


It might be that you could have an online session first & show him some footage. Am nit sure but maybe contact him to find out.

Tracking is a great idea & you actually dont need miles, its more about the complexity of the track, the terrain, how long it's aged, etc. I track all my dogs & it's a great source of mental stimulation for them.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I must admit I was disappointed that he was telling me I should be going through doors before my dog because it shows him I'm the leader and that I should ignore him until I ask him for affection because giving it out for free devalues it as a reward. He also rated Cesar Milan and Graham Hall as dog trainers.
I'd hoped for more after reading his website.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I must admit I was disappointed that he was telling me I should be going through doors before my dog because it shows him I'm the leader and that I should ignore him until I ask him for affection because giving it out for free devalues it as a reward. He also rated Cesar Milan and Graham Hall as dog trainers.
> I'd hoped for more after reading his website.


Wow, doesn't sound good at all. Why would giving affection when the dog wanted devalue it? IMO it strengthens your bond because you are responding to your dog.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh @Leanne77 I don't think it's your dog that's the problem, I think it's your dog community. 
Seriously, you're surrounded by people telling you your dog is a problem and you don't have what it takes to handle him. What if you were surrounded by people who appreciated his drive and enthusiasm and encouraged you and told you what a good job you're doing with him? Imagine how you would feel differently and handle his blips so much differently. 

IME the "show 'em who's boss" types really don't appreciate a good maniac teen dog and end up punishing the personality out of the dog. 
Some of the worst puppies and more grey-hair inducing teens turn out to be the best dogs. 

I had a well-known trainer, respected in the obedience ring, who's written books and does seminars around the country tell me Bates would never make a good obedience dog because he didn't have the right temperament for it, that he needed a prong because he didn't care about corrections, and that the best I could hope for him was to pass his CGC. 
To be fair, at that point Bates had poked holes in a few dogs, and was a total arsehole in general, but he did turn in to a pretty good dog


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I completely agree with @O2.0. In any dog world you have such a wide variety of trainers; some are great, some not so good, & some not helpful at all. I said in an earlier post that it sounded like your confidence was low & am not surprised if you are being told things as you've detailed.

In IGP there are plenty of trainers I wouldn't go to even if they were free but I know enough people in the sport to know who I rate so I have a great support network.

Ritter sounds like he could be a great dog for you if only you had the tools to channel his arousal & make it work better for you both. For what it's worth I think you are more than capable


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks guys, I do admit I've totally lost confidence with him and don't really know where to turn to get help that's within my budget and isn't miles away.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Thanks guys, I do admit I've totally lost confidence with him and don't really know where to turn to get help that's within my budget and isn't miles away.


I hope you don't mind but I spoke to my friend Jenny about you when I was chatting to her on FB. Jenny has excelled in WT & IGP with her dogs. She is an amazing trainer who is very considerate with her training, really thinks outside the box & is a really lovely person.

She would be more than happy to chat with you but obviously its entirely up to you. Here is her website, she can do online consultations aswell so might be an option initially.

Again, apologies if you think I'm interfering. I just know how these things can really get you down so wanted to at least give you an option









DELIVERANCE DOGS / Dog Training Wiltshire


Bespoke dog training tailored to suit your needs. Learning theory based, scientific approach, real life experience. Puppy training and dog training based in Castle Coombe, Wiltshire.




deliverancedogs.co.uk


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

No, don't mind at all @Cleo38. I've looked at the website and some of those testimonials could easily be me with Ritter. Unfortunately we've been further hampered because he has kennel cough so we cant do our Good Citizens test, a booked mantrailing session, our scentwork classes or any last ringcraft practice. He may not even be able to attend the show on the 20th.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> No, don't mind at all @Cleo38. I've looked at the website and some of those testimonials could easily be me with Ritter. Unfortunately we've been further hampered because he has kennel cough so we cant do our Good Citizens test, a booked mantrailing session, our scentwork classes or any last ringcraft practice. He may not even be able to attend the show on the 20th.


So glad it didn't come across as interfering, I just know that Jenny is amazing & you've had such rotten luck with trainers.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> No, don't mind at all @Cleo38. I've looked at the website and some of those testimonials could easily be me with Ritter. Unfortunately we've been further hampered because he has kennel cough so we cant do our Good Citizens test, a booked mantrailing session, our scentwork classes or any last ringcraft practice. He may not even be able to attend the show on the 20th.


Ugh you just can't catch a break!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marnie seems to be at the end of her season now so for the past 2 days she has been allowed to mix with Kato again (still heavily supervised for another week or so tho). 

She seemed to be fine through it, just a bit angrier than usual but not much change at all. Poor Kato seemed to suffer & was even off his food for a bit which made me worry as he's such a greedy boy.

Absolute bloody chaos initially; loads of noise, teeth, play fighting, knocking stuff over, etc with the complete excitement of my relaxing of the segregation rules  

Love seeing them all together again tho despite all the madness.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@Leanne77 I thought of you and Ritter yesterday, Penny had had a high arousal day, starting with coyotes first thing, then after work I took her for a walk and she went to ground and found a dead squirrel which was the best thing ever. Then she chased something in the dark, a couple other small things happened... By 7:30pm her arousal level had compounded to such an extent that her brain started short circuiting. She was spinning, barking at anything and everything, jumping at any noise or perceived movement.
Finally I picked her up, put her in the bedroom with me, closed the curtains, turned on the white noise machine and turned on a documentary for me to zone out to while she figured her life out. Not 5 minutes later, she was zonked out in the bed with me. But it took basically putting her in a padded room and reducing her stimulus to as little as possible. 

Don't judge Ritter and your ability to cope with him by his short circuiting brain, he has a functioning brain too  And when his brain is working you make a great pair. 
He's a teenage idiot and there are going to be many, many days and moments where he doesn't have a functioning brain. Keep plugging away and enjoy those moments when his brain is working and measure your successes by those moments increasing, not his meltdowns. 

BTW Here's one of the events from yesterday, feel free to laugh at me, I did   









That escalated quickly!!


Yes, the squirrel was dead, long dead (yuck!), if it had been alive she would have had *very* different body language going into the hole. And yes, I did tak...




youtube.com





Between my cat hurling a dead squirrel against the front door and my dog finding them in the woods, I'm really over the dead animal thing


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Just had this pop up on my FB newsfeed. I haven't listened to it yet but Sarah Stremming's podcasts are usually really good & I thought it would be relevant here

"Baby Dog" Problems by Cog-Dog Radio (soundcloud.com)


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## Soph x (9 mo ago)

Can anyone advise when a BC is supposed to mature? Six years old and still waiting 😂


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, Ava seems to be developing an interest in dog training!
We are currently hiding out at my sisters house during the day as I am having work done on my bathroom, and Ava is actually being really good. It is very exciting here because of sister's puppy, but she and the puppy are mostly stying upstairs and Ava and I are downstairs which limits the chaos. Ava was a bit of a nightmare on Monday but by yesterday just spend most of the day snoozing on Penny's bed (which I actually bought for Ava but she just tried to eat it so i donated it to my sister  ).


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Got a brand new behaviour that I want opinions on please. This has only appeared within the last week and only after we had that terrible assessment with a hpr trainer where I was told he couldn't help me because Ritter was too extreme. First time it happened was at the trainers property. Ritter was majorly over threshold, didnt want to go back in the car, redirected onto me then kicked off once in the crate. Now I get the same behaviour when I put him back in the car when we're anywhere other than the driveway. Usually he's reacting to something he's seen when I'm trying to load him in, but it has also happened when he's not over threshold.
The barking is the reason the trainer said he was aggressive as he was barking like that at him.
So, is he throwing a tantrum at going back in? Is it pure frustration or is there a sign of potential aggression? Furthermore, how do I deal with it? Both at the point where he realises he's going back in and starts to try and get away from me and redirects when he cant, and when he's barking in the crate? So far I've ignored him.

As a bit of a side note, I've ramped up on control and have not been letting him get away with anything. Usually when my nephew comes downstairs Ritter mugs him and starts diving on the furniture etc. Now I make Ritter stay on his bed by using my best 'dont you dare f**k with me' voice and using his lead to put him back in place if he moves.
Instead of following me about in the evening I've again made him stay on his bed whilst I'm pottering about in the kitchen. I've also been doing alot more waiting him out, ignoring him until he actually calms down before I do what it is I want to do.
Outdoors we've been doing lots of sit stays, heelwork, steadiness etc so I'm wondering if it's part of his general protest about me not taking his crap any more.

Video wont upload despite me making the file smaller so it's pn my FB 


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02JEkjqMQHhrBBrSSejiDRiU9563EHw6nn9DB6YYAgMCzMwCNUMiq5d6PRK89MPdvkl&id=715305461



The positive part of our 'walk' to follow in another post...


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ok, so positive part of the walk.

I took him to a more or less disused tennis court on a public park. It wasnt too busy with people passing but there were a few dogs went past. One tiny dog approached the court and Ritter ran half way over then stopped. I recalled him which he obeyed so we had a good game of tug as a reward. He could see the lady with several small dogs walking the perimeter, one of which was none stop barking. I allowed him to look then said "let's play" and we carried on.
We did some heelwork and sit stays whilst I walked around him. He's been struggling with stays just lately but happily stayed put whilst I even went behind him and whilst I did silly things like star jumps. We also did boundary practice so I only allowed him through the gate when he stopped trying to rush through it.
It only really went pear shaped when we got back to the car and he could see a spaniel running for a ball about 100 yards away which he started lunging and squealing at ☹


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't think he's aggressive, I think the barking is him expressing frustration as he hasn't had enough (fun/exercise ?)They are such high energy dogs.
He's a young dog and maybe all the training and control at this age is too much.
If he is too pent up he can't focus on that so much.
Of course you have to do some but couldn't it be amongst a good walk or run ?
Not sure if it helpful to see all his behaviour as 'crap' he is just trying to get his needs met and it feels to me that especially as a puppy he wants to have more exploration and fun. 
This is not meant to be a criticism Leanne, just how it feels to me from the little info I have heard. 
Sorry if I am getting it wrong but anyway someone offering the wrong thing can help you find what is right.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

It's very difficult to give him more exercise and 'fun' when he's reacting to his environment. I'd love nothing more than to get out in the beautiful Autumnal sun across the fields with a dog by my side but his behaviour makes that virtually impossible. Instead we have to find a quiet corner somewhere where there aren't any triggers and where we can incorporate training and playing as well as just a bit of running around.

Edited to add that the video of him barking was brought on by him seeing a spaniel running 100 yards away. He started to lunge and squeal, tried to get away from me when I took hold of his harness to put him in the car and when he obviously couldn't he started trying to bite my arms. Then we get the barking once he's in his crate.

Frustrated elicit aggression is what he appears to be suffering from.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> The barking is the reason the trainer said he was aggressive as he was barking like that at him.
> So, is he throwing a tantrum at going back in? Is it pure frustration or is there a sign of potential aggression? Furthermore, how do I deal with it? Both at the point where he realises he's going back in and starts to try and get away from me and redirects when he cant, and when he's barking in the crate? So far I've ignored him.


FWIW I looked at the video and I don’t think it sounds like aggression. Ava does similar and with her it is definitely frustration or over arousal to the point where she doesn’t know what to do with herself so just shouts. 
I am going off what I know about Ava (who does seem very similar to your boy in many ways) but she finds self-control very difficult and if she has been doing stuff like that it takes her much closer to threshold. 
I have done a lot of work on disengagement with Ava - a lot of walking round in circles behind the car including getting her to do simple behaviours as the car was also a trigger for her, and doing lots of getting in and out of the car (staying in for varying times) to make it more of a non-event. 



Dog Walker Woman said:


> He's a young dog and maybe all the training and control at this age is too much.
> If he is too pent up he can't focus on that so much.
> Of course you have to do some but couldn't it be amongst a good walk or run ?


Yes, they are high energy dogs but it sounds like he is very much getting his needs met. With a High energy dog, just letting him run round is just going to result in an even fitter dog with more energy.

When Ava was at her worst I tried not walking her at all and just did lots of work at home on calm and disengagement. It actually really helped her as, just anticipating going out was enough to wind her up to the point where she was over threshold the moment I left the house. 
I am not necessarily suggestions that this is what @Leanne77 should do - just saying that sometimes it is not in the best interest of a high-energy dog to just increase the exercise.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Dimwit said:


> FWIW I looked at the video and I don’t think it sounds like aggression. Ava does similar and with her it is definitely frustration or over arousal to the point where she doesn’t know what to do with herself so just shouts.
> I am going off what I know about Ava (who does seem very similar to your boy in many ways) but she finds self-control very difficult and if she has been doing stuff like that it takes her much closer to threshold.
> I have done a lot of work on disengagement with Ava - a lot of walking round in circles behind the car including getting her to do simple behaviours as the car was also a trigger for her, and doing lots of getting in and out of the car (staying in for varying times) to make it more of a non-event.
> 
> ...


Today I did work on disengagement before we went out. Just picking up my car keys gets him wound up but he's unsure of whether he's going in it or I'm just getting some training bits out. Either way the car triggers excitement but also anxiety as he still doesn't really like being in there.
So, he started to act silly so I just sat down on the bench until he'd calmed down. Then I got his harness out, again just sat until he'd calmed. Then I put it on him and again he started to act silly, running round the perimeter, displacing by looking out of the gates etc. I just ignored him until he actually came and stood in front of me like 'right, I'm ready now'. 
At the other end I didnt let him out until he'd stopped whingeing, just sat on the boot edge with my back to him.
It did all seem to help as he was pretty good at ignoring the handful of distractions we did have but then it all came undone at the car.
I've noticed that as soon as he realises his long line is being changed to a lead, he tries to get away too. He certainly doesn't like having any restrictions placed on him and his fun being stopped.

As I've been told by people who are familiar with his line, I wont have any issues getting him going, but I will have issues getting him to stop so I need to be able to apply the brakes before I hit the accelerator.
Giving him firm boundaries and being quite strict with control will not dampen his enthusiasm or drive. I thought I was putting in the control but he clearly needs far more than I've been used to putting in, even with an OTT dog like Flynn.

I've messaged somebody local for help who has been recommended and who takes a far more understanding approach.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Dimwit said:


> Yes, they are high energy dogs but it sounds like he is very much getting his needs met. With a High energy dog, just letting him run round is just going to result in an even fitter dog with more energy.


 Yes I do get that, having had B.C s. 
But I think a good stretch of the legs (run around) and a good sniffy walk around woods or trails helps the pent up energy. 
I've had friends who play constant fetch to tire their collies, which just causes adrenaline addiction athletes but that is not what I mean.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I think it's frustration and a tantrum tbh. I personally would be doing the same and giving him some stricter boundaries that are calmness and stillness based. He needs to learn he can't be on the go and doing stuff all the time (but of course you will still fulfil those needs by doing activities with him). He's the sort that you give and inch and he takes a mile adn then wants to do miles and miles more and gets frustrated when he can't!
When you put him back in the car when out can you scatter some food in there to distract and occupy him or is he too over threshhold? Can you do a few jumps in and out before shutting him in?
I'd practicing some arousal up and down exercises too, so having a 10 second play then asking for 10 seconds of stillness (or even just 5 if you need to) before re-engaging in play. Teaching him the skill of calming down after excitement will hopefully help.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

'I've messaged somebody local for help who has been recommended and who takes a far more understanding approach. '

Hope you can get the support you need this time and the trainer is sensitive enough to 'get' Ritter.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Can't believe Marnie will be a year old at the end of the month. She's still a d*ck though & has a long way to go before she matures but that's been the same for all my dogs. Archer is now 8 & only just started showing signs of maturity 

We've been doing more tracking now which she's doing so well at. Really have to concentrate on a nice, steady start which is so important for her. We've got another tracking day booked in a couple of weeks do will be nice to show off what we've been doing.

I've also been getting her to bark on command for a while now (starting protection training foundations) & now transferring this to the ball. 

Getting her to focus on that, intense barking then to stop barking (very important for gobby Marnie!) then to start again. She's doing great. She has really good natural aggression so am hoping with the right guidance this can really be bought out in protection training.

We have a 1-2-1 lesson with my IGP trainer next week which am really looking forward to.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

@Cleo38 it sounds like she is doing brilliantly!

Awesome Ava had her first group gundog class today - poor instructor has 3 pointers and 3 spaniels to deal with!
Apart from being very gobby (when she gets a bit overexcited she tends to just bark) she was really good. She managed some really nice heelwork (for her), her retrieves were as good as always and her sit stays were really good. She struggles with the sit stay anyway and with lots of other dogs to look at I thought she would go to pot, but she was great. She was looking round at everything but she didn't break.
It helps that she has done all this before - we have already done this level as 1-2-1 lessons but I thought it would be asking a lot of her to push on with her training as well as put her in a group class so we are repeating the level. I am so proud of her. We still have our problems and issues, and in 'real life' she is much more difficult than in the classes, but she tries so hard.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's such great news @Dimwit! It really is a big step up from a 1-2-1 lesson to a group environment  

Great training opportunity in between my online meetings this afternoon. Anglian Water have a compound in the field near me as they are laying a new pipeline. Today big sections of pipe were being taken off a low loader & stacked on some hard standing. So machinery, noise, people, etc. I took Marnie over there, just let her look initially but she wasn't fussed then pushed me to play with her. After some play we did some HW (luring at this stage still), then some play, HW again then ended with some play. 

It was only a very short session but that's all I wanted as I was just working on focus & engagement. She was bloody great ! Easily switched between work & play, no issues at all with what was going on nearby, then we walked back to the house with (almost) OK LLW ... still a work in progress!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Bronte was on one today at agility. I'm not sure why, just one of those days I suppose! We were doing foundations as it was wet and muddy so didn't want too much running and speed, but Bronte had other ideas....
I set him up for a wing wrap - tunnel - wrap and he did the check but instead of going in the tunnel he ran straight past and did zoomies round the field, went up to my instructor's van and wound up her dogs at which point our vain attempts at recalling him back stopped and I went to collect the bugger. We shut the van door at that point! He then did well when his 2 brain cells were working together! He's got loads of potential it's just a case of working with his teenage brain and minute attention span. We avoid using toy play in agility too much as it amps him up and he gets OTT, but after a go at weaves where he went off and stole a toy we decided he obviously needed toys today! We absolutely cracked up laughing as when he got the toy reward you could literally see the dopamine flooding his tiny brain 🤣 🤣 He clearly needed that hit today! He's defintiely going through a bitey phase. I'm trying to keep the balance by allowing appropriate biting but not doing too much. 
I took him for a slow sniffy walk afterwards to try and regain some calmness!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hahahahaha, @Sarah H sounds like he had an amazing time!!!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahahaha, @Sarah H sounds like he had an amazing time!!!


That's exactly what we were all saying, at least someone enjoyed themselves! To be fair he is great fun, but he's also such a [email protected]


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> That's exactly what we were all saying, at least someone enjoyed themselves! To be fair he is great fun, but he's also such a [email protected]


All the best dogs are! One of my funniest memories of Toby (my first dog) was at a rally obedience competition we entered at a local show. We had been training in preparation at our dog training club & he was great yet on entering the ring at the show he was a complete kn*b head!!

He ran riot, ragging all the signs & cones laid out for the course. He then ran over to the judge & stole her clip board & then ran laps around the ring with it in his mouth. The spectators loved him & were laughing so much which egged him on. He then stopped to be sick all over the clipboard (he'd been eating bits of discarded burgers, hot dogs, chips, etc all day), then spotted my sister in the crowd of spectators (there were quite a few by this time ), leapt the rope & went to sit with her whilst I tried to clean the judges clipboard of vomit ... she was not impressed at all but Toby had a fab time


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> All the best dogs are! One of my funniest memories of Toby (my first dog) was at a rally obedience competition we entered at a local show. We had been training in preparation at our dog training club & he was great yet on entering the ring at the show he was a complete kn*b head!!
> 
> He ran riot, ragging all the signs & cones laid out for the course. He then ran over to the judge & stole her clip board & then ran laps around the ring with it in his mouth. The spectators loved him & were laughing so much which egged him on. He then stopped to be sick all over the clipboard (he'd been eating bits of discarded burgers, hot dogs, chips, etc all day), then spotted my sister in the crowd of spectators (there were quite a few by this time ), leapt the rope & went to sit with her whilst I tried to clean the judges clipboard of vomit ... she was not impressed at all but Toby had a fab time


Now THAT is hilarious


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Took Marnie for a lesson with my IGP trainer today as I wanted to start working on protection training. She'll be a year old soon but I didn't want to start earlier as I wanted to see how she matured so I could decide how I would approach it.

Protection training (& any sort of bite work training) is so complex as it involves different drives & getting dogs to really be very intense but then under control when asked. It is constantly balancing getting intense aggression with obedience & adjusting exercises ever so slightly so you don't have too much of one. It really does require such skill for this as well as someone who knows how to work the dogs to keep them safe as the risk of injury in some excersises could be high if someone wasnt so experienced.

Anyway, I knew Marnie has great natural aggression & I have been working on my own with her switching it on & off with simple exercises. I have to be careful with Marnie as she's a gobby little bitch so have put quite a bit of control in initially, this might change as we go on but served me well today.

For her first lesson she was bloody amazing! Just simple stuff like her activating the helper (who had like flirt pole), she learnt that in order for the 'prey' to move she barked. She picked this up instantly & had a great, full grip (very important in IGP) when she caught the 'prey'. She had several short sessions like this where she worked so well, was able to 'out' when asked & then switched off when we finished.

We ended up doing a couple of sessions with a bite pillow despite massive distractions of a huge military helicopter who suddenly turned up & was practising maneuvers in the next field. It was so close & loud but she wasn't phased at all & carried on with her work.

So very pleased with her, she is such an amazing little dog


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

My efforts to clamp down on Ritter's unruly behaviour at home are being met with resistance. Apparently Mum feels sorry for him every day and doesnt think him and I get on, she thinks I'm being horrible to him.
Basically he runs riot around the house if left unchecked - he jumps up the counters constantly, races around knocking things over left, right and centre, mugs people by jumping up, biting clothing, mouthing arms and does not settle unless made to do so. He's literally a nightmare.
So I've not been giving him an inch. I make him stay on the kitchen bed if I'm cooking, if I ask him to settle on his bed then I dont allow him to get off it to wander around, I don't allow him to get off it to jump up anybody if they enter the room, but I can only achieve that by him being on the lead. He doesn't like me grabbing his collar so I use the lead.
However, he's the most testing dog I've ever met, he pushes the boundaries constantly and does not give in easily. I've never repeated myself so much as I have to with him. So we're most definitely in the stage of our relationship where it's a battle of wills, and what I've been told time and time again is correct, treats alone are not going to work with a dog as willful as he is.
So when he jumps up Mum and scratches her, or knocks her coffee off the counter, I hear alot of moaning about his behaviour from her but she wont discipline him in any way, so when I do I'm seen as being horrible to him. I can't make her see that he's not like the other 3, he's a different kettle of fish and at the moment, he can't be treated like they were. He needs to learn his thuggish behaviour is simply not on.
Her getting on my case about how strict I'm being with him, yet at the same time moaning about everything he does is just another thing to contend with that I don't need.
Plus we've not had a very good walk. I did take him somewhere that should've been a good walk but I quickly realised that after all the rain, there's no way I could put him on the long line and stay on my feet so he had to stay on his figure 8. He got pretty frustrated about that because he obviously wanted more freedom. Then it seemed every other dog owner wanted to ask me if he was friendly and let their dogs say hello. No! He's highly aroused, he's pulling like a train and I'm struggling to stay upright, please just carry on with your walk! 

....and breathe!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

It must be difficult @Leanne77 , at least I live on my own so don't have anyone sabotaging my training. I was saying to my IGP trainer today about how Kato pushes my buttons, far more so than any of my other dogs.

Last night I was prepping some geese for the dogs dinners & whilst they are all excited they know that no stealing is allowed. As I moved awayto get a tea towel to mop up the blood (looked like a murder scene!) Kato went over to try his luck whilst looking at me the entire time. Not fussed at all

I told him "No, leave" so he barked at me ... then didn't move his feet but reached forward desperately sticking his tongue out as far as he could to get something, again looking at me the entire time like a defiant child. So he was put in the front room protesting all the while as I finished up.

When I went to let him out he was sat with his back to me & wouldn't even look at me. He continued to sulk until it was dinner time then came into to do his best " starving RSPCA dog look" ....... he is such a sh*t at times!!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie is 10 months, and is improving a bit!
We're working reeeeeeeeeeeeally hard on "leave it", and he is slowly getting better, and can resist the urge to steal washing!
He's giving up stolen goods a lot easier, which is a relief with the guarding. I was worried it would get worse or we wouldn't see any improvement.

He's settled on my lap a few times, or sleeps by my feet occasionally....it actually made my eyes water the first time he did it, I'm so used to him being horrible to me! 😂

He met some horses on Sunday for the first time, coming out of thick fog. I was a bit nervous, but we moved off the track and stopped when he wouldn't walk anymore. I crouched next to him and gave him treats, and he was absolutely fine! No reaction! 😁
We're not going to do that walk for a while though, as we keep seeing the same Vizsla and it snaps at him every single time 
A Dalmatian did the same yesterday 🙈 but I've been taking him to the park a lot, and he's been playing with other dogs with no problems.

The neighbours cat just ran out from a bush, and he didn't have a meltdown, just a lunge and a squeak.

Am having to be much stricter with him as he will absolutely take advantage, and sometimes it seems he's deliberately naughty to get a reward when he's told to stop it...but surely he wouldn't be that sneaky .
He was quite back chatty at training, but pushed him through and he got on with it all.
He told one of the other dogs off, but the owner had let go of her lead and was letting it belt around all over the place, and it pushed him over. Luckily she's new and I doubt she'll stay for long.
That same dog hyped the other pups up, and they all had a meltdown and ended up barking for ages 😂 viewed it as a good opportunity to get Charlie working on ignoring them.
I think I sometimes still view him as a tiny pup and I don't expect too much from him, when really he's capable of much more now.

They did a bit of scent work in the class, and our trainer said he's "a good little worker, he's really on it!"
Sniffing is definitely his favourite thing....as can be seen from this most ridiculous walk yesterday, where he spent 35 minutes in this small field, following the scent of goodness knows what!








I thought he was tracking us at one point 😂

Obviously still lots of room for improvement, and he's certainly not what I expected! but I think we're on the right track....although the track is steep! 😂


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ritter having kennel cough has given us a bit of a break but unfortunately it meant he missed his Good Citizens bronze test, plus a scentwork mock trial, plus much needed ringcraft for his first open show on Sunday.
I will be giving the next block of scentwork classes a miss and was immediately kicked out of the group on Messenger, despite saying I'd be back in the New Year. That really boiled my piss tbh.
The reason I'm giving them a miss is because we have a behaviourist coming out on the 26th to work with us and I only have limited finances. Hopefully this one has more to offer us. 
We're also going to see his breeder on the 24th to crack on with some gundog stuff. 
He's got a couple of mantrailing sessions booked and I'm in the process of organising some fitness swim sessions for him. He seems really keen to swim and quite fearless about going in ponds etc but I'd rather he learn in a controlled environment, especially considering the complications of a long line and his excitable nature.
After the hiatus of kc, I'm keen to get restarted with a, hopefully, fresh perspective.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

@Gemmaa he is doing so well!


Gemmaa said:


> He met some horses on Sunday for the first time, coming out of thick fog. I was a bit nervous, but we moved off the track and stopped when he wouldn't walk anymore. I crouched next to him and gave him treats, and he was absolutely fine! No reaction! 😁


Ava was just about ok the first time she met horses just in a field but then was very confused when she saw horses with people on them 
Then we met a miniature horse which blew her mind because it was the same size that she was, but it wasn't a dog...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> @Gemmaa he is doing so well!
> 
> Ava was just about ok the first time she met horses just in a field but then was very confused when she saw horses with people on them
> Then we met a miniature horse which blew her mind because it was the same size that she was, but it wasn't a dog...


I remember the first time Roxy saw a horse with a rider .... her face was totally shock .... then the barking started 🙄
Luckily the woman was great & we met up a few times for some training sessions.

Archer & Marnie aren't fussed at all with horses but Kato LOVES them. I often take him to see the ones in the field where we go tracking. They seem to love him aswell & will only come over if he is there, if I'm on my own the b*ggers ignore me


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I remember the first time Roxy saw a horse with a rider .... her face was totally shock .... then the barking started 🙄
> Luckily the woman was great & we met up a few times for some training sessions.
> 
> Archer & Marnie aren't fussed at all with horses but Kato LOVES them. I often take him to see the ones in the field where we go tracking. They seem to love him aswell & will only come over if he is there, if I'm on my own the b*ggers ignore me


I call Sox the horse whisperer they love him he always has a chat. We have loads of riders in the village Loki has learned to sit quietly and have his treats he did bark initially. And then there is Sox and cows.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Boxer123 , I took Kato out for a walk with my friend's horse a few times & he was so happy! Despite that he was so calm & didn't act like a knob at all, its as if he knew. They both got on so well & was lovely watching them together.

He is usually so clumsy & inconsiderate but completely different when it comes to horses


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Boxer123 said:


> I call Sox the horse whisperer they love him he always has a chat. We have loads of riders in the village Loki has learned to sit quietly and have his treats he did bark initially. And then there is Sox and cows.
> View attachment 579972
> View attachment 579973


That looks like a proper Babe "baa-ram-ewe" moment 😂


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Gemmaa said:


> That looks like a proper Babe "baa-ram-ewe" moment 😂


God knows what they were plotting but Loki was terrified and hiding over the other side of the field so it might have been a plot to get rid of pupper.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> @Boxer123 , I took Kato out for a walk with my friend's horse a few times & he was so happy! Despite that he was so calm & didn't act like a knob at all, its as if he knew. They both got on so well & was lovely watching them together.
> 
> He is usually so clumsy & inconsiderate but completely different when it comes to horses


Bronte loves horses. I think he just assumes they are giant dogs who want to run around with him! He once jumped the hedge and ended up in our neighbour's field with their horses (thankfully this was a while ago and it hasn't happened since!) and was apparently having a great time trying to play with them! Luckily the yard owner was there and saw he wasn't being aggressive or even chasey, just playful, and she corralled him back over the hedge to me (and my profuse apologies!)



Gemmaa said:


> That looks like a proper Babe "baa-ram-ewe" moment 😂


Do you know what the original rhyme from the book is? It's way better than the film one. It goes something like:
I may be Ewe
I may be Ram
I may be Mutton
I may be Lamb,
But on the hoof or on the hook,
I baint so stupid as I look!

Sorry tangent!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I take back the nice stuff! 

That bloody spaniel at training!!!!!!!
Totally hyped them all up again, got the lead wrapped around Charlie, he got really annoyed and growly...the thing is like a fluffy tornado!

Anyway, long story short, Charlie couldn't calm down or was too tired, and basically had a 50 minute tantrum. He ripped my coat because he kept jumping up and grabbing me, in between barking at the spaniel 

We had a few, very small, good moments, and our trainer took pity on us and we focussed on scent work, which calms him.
I managed to wait until we were in the car before I ugly cried 

Next week I'm going to let him greet the dogs for a moment, but then we're hiding behind the hut until ready to start the lesson. 
I also need to be more with it, and tell the spaniel woman to back off. 

At least he's had the decency to go to sleep when we got back.

....and to add insult to injury, he blew off in the car and it smelt like horse poo 😂


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

That spaniel owner sounds like a right tit. There always seems to be that one dog in every class which winds the others up and the owner is totally clueless.
I used to do some classes and sometimes an older woman would be there with one of her Labs. She's the really annoying type that just seems totally oblivious to the fact certain dogs needs space, even when told, and wanders around with her dog at the end of the lead or stands talking, unaware her dog is eyeballing another. 

I've had a terrible night with Ritter tonight, his light and shadow reacting has been awful. I turned the TV off and decided to watch something on my phone, ended up having to switch it off and put my phone away because it was casting too many shadows. So then I just sat in the dark but then he could see the passing car headlights round the edge of the curtains. I've ended up putting him to bed and covering his crate completely because I'm struggling to deal with him. His whining tonight has been incessant too and my nerves feel totally frayed.

Yesterday at the show one of the rings had completely finished for the day so they started to roll the rubber matting up. He was about to kick off at that before I quickly turned him around and walked away. So, considering it was a pretty mundane, normal thing that no other dog even noticed, but he was about to have a meltdown over, you can see how everything on a walk sets him off and makes it so stressful to take him anywhere.

I feel like I'm currently living on a knife edge. The stress of his behaviour tonight made me feel sick. I don't think his breeder realises the extent of it all. I keep being told he's just a normal puppy but I've had puppies in the past, I've been around alot of puppies lately and none of them have been anything close to him. I know I'm dealing with him all wrong and making him worse, and I'm trying not to react to him reacting, to practice stillness, to ignore demanding behaviour but my own anxiety gets on top of me and I flip my lid.

We have a behaviourist coming on Saturday and she will probably be his last chance because I cant deal with much more of this disruption and chaos.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> That spaniel owner sounds like a right tit. There always seems to be that one dog in every class which winds the others up and the owner is totally clueless.
> I used to do some classes and sometimes an older woman would be there with one of her Labs. She's the really annoying type that just seems totally oblivious to the fact certain dogs needs space, even when told, and wanders around with her dog at the end of the lead or stands talking, unaware her dog is eyeballing another.
> 
> I've had a terrible night with Ritter tonight, his light and shadow reacting has been awful. I turned the TV off and decided to watch something on my phone, ended up having to switch it off and put my phone away because it was casting too many shadows. So then I just sat in the dark but then he could see the passing car headlights round the edge of the curtains. I've ended up putting him to bed and covering his crate completely because I'm struggling to deal with him. His whining tonight has been incessant too and my nerves feel totally frayed.
> ...


What approach are you using to deal with his reactivity? I have no experience of light chasing but having had such a reactive dog I do think and I hope you don’t mind me saying some of these environments I wouldn’t have even considered taking Loki to because he wouldn’t have coped. I was literally training him in an empty field.

Again I could be wrong but we needed to work on the big issues first. It’s only been the last few weeks I’ve thought we may manage a class. 

With the shadow chasing have you spoken to the vet ? Maybe he needs meds ? He sounds quite anxious I know I hope the behaviourist goes well are they vet recommended?

Good luck it is hard having a tricky dog I used to spend hours trying to figure out where to walk Loki so we wouldn’t see people, cars, motorcycles it was exhausting.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> That spaniel owner sounds like a right tit. There always seems to be that one dog in every class which winds the others up and the owner is totally clueless.
> I used to do some classes and sometimes an older woman would be there with one of her Labs. She's the really annoying type that just seems totally oblivious to the fact certain dogs needs space, even when told, and wanders around with her dog at the end of the lead or stands talking, unaware her dog is eyeballing another.
> 
> I've had a terrible night with Ritter tonight, his light and shadow reacting has been awful. I turned the TV off and decided to watch something on my phone, ended up having to switch it off and put my phone away because it was casting too many shadows. So then I just sat in the dark but then he could see the passing car headlights round the edge of the curtains. I've ended up putting him to bed and covering his crate completely because I'm struggling to deal with him. His whining tonight has been incessant too and my nerves feel totally frayed.
> ...


I am quite confused by your posts with Ritter tbh. You posted about going to the event at the weekend & it sounded like you had a great time. For a dog with his over arousal issues this was huge for him & from your posts he did really well. The mat rolling incident really just says he was tired & maybe it was too much at that point ..... totally normal IMO. 

Maybe the shadow chasing is part of the overarousal from the weekend, with many dogs like this there can be 'fall out' from these type of incidents. How do you manage him during these times? 

Dogs aren't easy at times & some dogs more challenging than others. Since Marnie's season Kato has been full of himself. He's stopped being Mr Independent & is very engaged & with me on our walks again but is throwing his weight around regarding house rules (which there aren't many tbh). As I have said previously, our relationship was strained for a while but we have really grown together. He is still an absolute sh*t at times & will go out of his way to do the opposite of what I want but in some ways that's what make him the dog he is. Of course I lose my patience with him at times (no way am I perfect!) but I take each incident as it is & think how I can nanage things better. Sometimes they are such simple things that make such a difference.

As I said in a previous post you need to decide whether Ritter is staying or not because again you've said that he might be going. I honestly don't think this dort of mind set helps either of you. I know it sounds harsh but I don't think you can really have a deep bond with your dog if that is an option always so readily available. 

I think maybe you also need to address your anxiety issues aswell as this sort of stress will not be good for you. I have really bad anxiety at times but have learnt how to manage this much better & it really is so life changing. You can refer yourself for CBT rather than going through a doctor or maybe have a look online for some info. I started doing very short mindfulness sessions which I initially dismissed as 'hippy b*llock' but was very helpful. Also maybe it might be menopause (sorry, am thinking you are that age but might be wrong!) that us also heightening your anxiety so naybe you could discuss with your doctor.

Apologies if any of this is a bit blunt, it really isn't meant to cause any upset but I just know you are quite straight talking.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I am quite confused by your posts with Ritter tbh. You posted about going to the event at the weekend & it sounded like you had a great time. For a dog with his over arousal issues this was huge for him & from your posts he did really well. The mat rolling incident really just says he was tired & maybe it was too much at that point ..... totally normal IMO.
> 
> Maybe the shadow chasing is part of the overarousal from the weekend, with many dogs like this there can be 'fall out' from these type of incidents. How do you manage him during these times?
> 
> ...


I’ve said it before sometimes you get a dog who throws you a curve ball. Loki wasn’t the dog I wanted but the one I needed. 

It is disappointing at first I don’t compete in dog shows but Sox and Lily we did lots of mountain walking with, canicross activities and they were pub dogs. So easy.

At one point i couldn’t do anything with Loki. We walked first thing before everyone else then stayed in the garden or secure field for the rest of the day. 1:1 training in a secure field.

It took months to teach him to eat outside by sitting in an empty field with cold cuts. Everything was slow.

Now we can strut around a busy village at school pick up time like normal people but it’s taken years. I have a Loki kit; treats, tugs, anti bite spray because if he gets attacked it will knock him so far back. Sox just shrugs off fights. I’ve also had my confidence knocked by unsolicited mansplaining. Just tell them to feck off @Leanne77 and crack on doing your thing.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> It is disappointing at first I don’t compete in dog shows but Sox and Lily we did lots of mountain walking with, canicross activities and they were pub dogs. So easy.


I think this is so important ... our disappointment. We can have such big plans for our dogs or compare them to previous dogs which is so unfair, although obviously we don't always do this consciously. 

When I was seeing the Finnish trainer we had over for a few sessions all his training is based on the relationship with handler & dog, that is the foundation for everything. He spoke of expectations of our dogs leading to disappointment which then negatively affects the relationship. So forget goals, tests, etc initially just concentrate on our dog. Really get to know them; understand them & enjoy them. Everything else will come eventually.

It is so very true. Initially Kato was going to be for IGP but his ED meant that wasn't going to happen. I did accept this & because of the other issues we initially had it was a struggle at times. But he was my dog regardless & I learnt to accept him & really concentrate on building our relationship. 

We are great together now, I love him to bits. My friend (who also has one of Archer's brothers) recently did her BH with her young GSD (similar age to Kato). This is an obedience & temperament test to show your dog is competent to compete in IGP. Unfotunately I couldn't make the trial to watch her (van issues!) but as we had started our IGP journey together & hoped to continue with our young dogs I wondered if I would be slightly envious that it wouldn't be Kato & I. I honesty wasn't at all tho. Whilst we weren't trialling (& never will), we had such a lovely time splashing in puddles & having fun which us the most important thing IMO.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Boxer123 , he's generally ok in classes and works pretty well. He can settle when needed, ignore the other dogs, and focus on the training. There are some classes we stopped because he couldn't handle them, like gundog classes.
As for walking, we either go to a secure field or go to a couple of places where there are no distractions and work on the things we need to work on.
It's very rare we go for 'proper' walks because there is usually too much going on, unless I pick my route very carefully. We have even stopped going to National Trust places because they're too busy. My Mum wanted to take him to the beach, I said no because I don't want to drive 2+ hours and risk him having a meltdown at seeing another dog running, or seagulls flying about.

I had booked him in for meds but the behaviourist wants to assess him as he is first. No, she's not vet recommended but I know her, have done classes with her so have seen her approach. 

@Cleo38, I'm confused myself tbh. One day he has a great day and surprises me with his ability to cope, then the next day he is a different dog whom I struggle to know what to do with and it's those moments where I think I'm not the right owner and I can't deal with life together if it's going to be like that.
You're likely right about the menopause because all the women on my mum's side were perimenopausal in their early 40's. I'm mid 40's but because I'm on the pill, they can't do any tests.
I do probably need to do something about my own anxiety because it's been going on for years and although I no longer have panic attacks, it really reduces my mental capacity to cope with stress. However, there is a big part of me that goes 'just get on with it, life is hard for everybody' and I don't want to bother the GP when people need appointments for real medical things.

Being with my dogs was a stress relief for me before, going on nice walks amongst nature. Now that has changed to be my biggest source of stress. He doesn't like being left so I feel I can't even go out alone for a bike ride, or to Zumba or something.

Tbh, Saturday when Rebecca comes over to assess him cant come quick enough. I'm hoping she can come up with a masterplan to make all our lives much easier.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Sorry Leanne but I still think he is not getting his needs met .
His light /shadow chasing is him trying to find a job to do.
The 'thuggish' behaviour you describe is him trying to connect and have some stimulation.
Anything I have read about GWPs says they are a high energy dog that needs plenty of outdoor exercise or you will get behaviours you don't want.
Also they do need a lot of attention from their owners.
Similar to BCs and although I really loved my boys, I often wished I had chosen an easier breed.
No sitting watching TV all night for me, but luckily I enjoyed playing with them doing trick training, hiding things etc and last short walk.
I understand you need that for yourself but Ritter needs more.
He probably feels stressed by you making him stay still and ignoring him when he is desperate to do something with you/or have something to do.
I know you do classes, but like Boxer123 says maybe he doesn't enjoy that environment
All this control of his behaviour is leaving him like a coiled spring inside and it is coming out in other ways.
ETA
Takes me ages to write replies(dyslexic) so didn't see previous answers, was replying to original post last night but resumed this morning. In case I seem out of the loop here.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Leanne77 , life is difficult for many people but you are still deserving of help. I've had a really sh*t couple of years & felt similar. Anyway, result of many discussions (as my anxiety was also getting worse again) was starting HRT which has been such a massive help. I honestly can't believe how quickly this changed things for me.

Like our dogs, we need to learn skills in how to manage things & sometimes having a step back helps. When Kato had his op I was literally his servant most days with little time to myself. One day I realised it was really getting to me. I was so worried about him, tired because I was trying to manage 3 dogs who had different needs cope with work, etc. He was howling constantly as he wanted out if his crate & I really shouted at him. I then felt terrible about what a sh*t owner I was .... I wasn't, but I needed a break. So I went out with friend's that evening & left the dogs on their own. They were fine & I needed some time away.

I still can get caught up in this that I find make time for myself but luckily my friends know this so bully me in to having an evening away which really does me good. Maybe look at activities you can do without Ritter as you fo need to relax & unwind. But really do get some help, this is not something that you will simply get over.

I also think if you could get help then maybe you could enjoy Ritter a bit more. Am hoping you get some ideas from your behaviourist but I really don't think this won't be an instant fix.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> The mat rolling incident really just says he was tired & maybe it was too much at that point ..... totally normal IMO.


I was just going to say the same. 
I feel like a bit of a fraud because I tend to post Penny's successes and I don't often share her 5hit moments of which we still have a good many. 
A couple weeks ago we went to the city with my friend who's a behaviorist, and Penny was doing so well, I over-did it. Same thing, she started reacting to things no other dog in the area even noticed. For example, walking by a display that had sound with it, Penny couldn't figure out what/who was talking and definitely didn't like it, so the next person that passed she lunged and barked at their feet. Not in the playful way she does with my XC kids, but she meant it. 
Had my friend not been there I would have second-guessed myself because I thought we were over that stage. She went from pancaking on the ground if someone walked by, to trying to attack if someone walked by to totally fine. And has been for nearly a year, so that was a big surprise. But my friend explained that she's a terrier with a ton of prey drive and she's going to default to pounce and bite. Her arousal was beyond her control so she just locked on to the first thing near her that was moving which happened to be feet. 

Ritter is going to default to certain behaviors when he's over stimulated. Try not to get lost in the weeds of the behaviors because that's not really the issue, the overstimulation is. If you can teach him to bring himself back down that will definitely help. Granted the teaching to bring himself back down will indeed take years, but it will improve over that time. 

And I second, third, getting yourself the help you need for your anxieties. CBT is great stuff and if you have an analytical mind you'll like it. Mindfullness is also great and it does feel like hippy woo-woo, but if I can honestly say it has kept me sane even when the world is falling apart around me


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> Sorry Leanne but I still think he is not getting his needs met .
> His light /shadow chasing is him trying to find a job to do.
> The 'thuggish' behaviour you describe is him trying to connect and have some stimulation.
> Anything I have read about GWPs says they are a high energy dog that needs plenty of outdoor exercise or you will get behaviours you don't want.
> Also they do need a lot of attention from their owners.


I am not sure I agree, and I don't think it is particularly helpful to keep telling a person that they are not meeting their dog's needs.
@Leanne77 has explained the difficulties with letting Ritter get lots of outdoor exercise so it is not for want of trying.

I have a very energetic GSP who I can't let off lead (recall is work in progress) and I have to be careful where I take her for on lead walks as she finds the environment SO exciting that she loses her mind and could easily pull me over.
The thing is, lots of people told me that she would need lots of exercise (at least 2 hours a day off lead etc.) but all that would do for Ava would be to get her superfit and even more energetic/difficult in the house.

Then someone pointed out to me that what Ava actually desperately needed was to learn to manage her arousal levels and to learn to calm down. For her, racing round the countryside or doing wall of death in the house and then leaping at me, biting is easy. It is using her brain, having some self control and just doing nothing that is incredible difficult for her. But these are things that she needed to learn. It is totally unrealistic and unfair to expect me to entertain her all day long.

The best thing I ever did was to ditch walks with her for a month - I would take her out to toilet (she refuses to toilet in my garden) and I took her gundog training but apart from that she got no walks. Instead we did lots of work at home on calmness and disengagement and managing her arousal levels. We had a couple of weeks break from gundog classes as instructor was on holiday and when she got back she was amazed at the difference in Ava and I had to confess that I had done barely any of our 'homework'. We still have lots of issues outdoors as she is very aware of her environment, but I do a few short training session with her throughout the day and she pretty much spends the rest of the time asleep on the sofa. We do go for walks now but I have had to adjust my expectations of walks as she is not (at least for now) the kind of dog who will trot along by my side while I wander along and admire the scenery - I have to work to keep her engaged or play hunting games with her (thanks @O2.0 for the book recommendation).

I am not saying that this will work for every dog, but it is working for Ava. It was hard for me to let go of the guilt of not giving her marathon walks every day, but she is much calmer and happier now and I think it is often very difficult to challenge the accepted wisdom that high energy working dogs just need lots and lots of exercise...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Penny needs both, she needs to both use her body and her mind. 
Cross Country coaching has been a godsend for us because it gives her something physical to do while still practicing managing arousal levels. The season ended last week and she has been a total PITA in the evenings lately. 

I really need my kids to hurry up and come home for the holidays because they're good at entertaining Penny  

@Leanne77 the other thing is, you're doing this all on your own. I have OH and two young adult children who can pitch in and corral the tazmanian devil when I need a break. That's not easy! 

I wonder if hiring a dog walker might be an option? Just to give you a break every now and then?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> Sorry Leanne but I still think he is not getting his needs met .
> His light /shadow chasing is him trying to find a job to do.
> The 'thuggish' behaviour you describe is him trying to connect and have some stimulation.
> Anything I have read about GWPs says they are a high energy dog that needs plenty of outdoor exercise or you will get behaviours you don't want.
> ...


I do understand what you mean, sometimes it's getting that balance right between asking for calmness & also allowing your dog to be an exuberant [email protected] I also think sometimes asking too much can simply create frustration rather than calmness, & that's the skill I suppose being able to read each situation & adjusting according.

I mentioned previously that Kato was very independent so I tried using the 'everything good comes through me' . This approach to a degree is pretty successful with most dogs but people told me that EVERYTHING must come from me so I did try this. But it seemed the more I cracked down the more he resisted & it really didn't sit right with me. I think it was something Denise Fenzi said about this sort of approach & how she wanted her dog to be a 'participant rather than a captive' in training ..... & that was it. I abandoned it all & eased right off. 

I let him be himself. I had no expectations, I had no training plan except for trying to understand him a bit more & it was the best thing I did.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Penny needs both, she needs to both use her body and her mind.


Absolutely - and so does Ava. But she had had a lot of practice at using her body and very little of using her mind. She basically wasn't getting any downtime because she was either anticipating a walk, or she was massively overaroused because we had just had a walk (even if the walk was several hours ago). Taking them out of the equation temporarily put her in a place where she was actually able to use her brain and to calm herself down.
As I said, it's not a magic cure and probably wouldn't work for every dog but I had lots of people telling me she needed more exercise or to play with other dogs etc. and I know that would have made her worse. We still have plenty of struggles out and about, but at least now she is better at bringing her arousal levels down and can cope with being in a group class, and we start mantrailing soon. I just needed to do a bit more work on the very basics so that she would be able to cope in those situations.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> @Boxer123 , he's generally ok in classes and works pretty well. He can settle when needed, ignore the other dogs, and focus on the training. There are some classes we stopped because he couldn't handle them, like gundog classes.
> As for walking, we either go to a secure field or go to a couple of places where there are no distractions and work on the things we need to work on.
> It's very rare we go for 'proper' walks because there is usually too much going on, unless I pick my route very carefully. We have even stopped going to National Trust places because they're too busy. My Mum wanted to take him to the beach, I said no because I don't want to drive 2+ hours and risk him having a meltdown at seeing another dog running, or seagulls flying about.
> 
> ...


Well if he can settle you are definitely doing better than we were because I literally couldn’t go anywhere. So try not to worry all is lost. I thought we would just have to use secure fields forever


Don’t be to disheartened if the behaviourist doesn’t tell you anything you don’t all ready know. 

Why not pop over to the reactivity thread with a bottle of wine. There is some great advice. A lot of us are using LAT theory. We took Loki to a busy beach a few weeks ago and I was driving my sister nuts I just kept saying, ‘look we couldn’t do this a year ago could we?’ Over and over. 

He’s so much more relaxed on walks now he used to look so worried and kept sitting down yesterday his little ears were bobbing, he was trotting along. My heart was so full ! 

My training told me to wear lots of training gear and Loki. So people know your working on it. I used to apologise to people now I focus on Loki. Yesterday we walked past a doodle teddy dog in a tight area. I was telling Loki he was brave saying hello to the dog, giving him treats. When we got past I gave him a big cuddle. The people looked at me like I was nuts but he didn’t react.

With your anxiety and doing it alone like @O2.0 said it’s hard. I went through my divorce when Loki was a pup. Then lockdown I was not in a good place. It’s fair to say Loki didn’t get the best of me. It would have been a lot easier without him. I’m so glad we kept going.

Finally sorry long post. Im not always sure being stricter is better. I always say to teachers if it was going to work it would have by now. Try and have fun with him, do let him get away with nonsense sometimes. O2 telling me to cuddle Loki in reaction s does work even though it reminds me of David Cameron’s hug a hoodie. 

Even Sox who is a sensible boy is silly sometimes. He has it in for pheasant feeders. He attacks them if given the chance.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Tbh, I've knocked all the strict stuff on the head. I've let him lay across me in the sofa and if he's come to me for a fuss, I've done it, but I'm still not letting him get away with treating the house and humans like a playground and I'm ensuring his manners are kept in check too.

Don't get me wrong, he never used to be great in a class but teaching a settle really worked as did ensuring he was calm before we did the thing we were about to do.

We went out today to our quiet place and he was great, really engaged with me, we had some great games with food, a few retrieves, a run around and some basic commands. He did everything I asked and now I'm learning to turn around as soon as he spots something he wants to squeal at with a 'this way' command and doing the same if he's getting over excited and pulling/whining because we're heading to somewhere he knows, he seems better out and about.
The house is my main area of concern right now because nothing much is improving there.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> Tbh, I've knocked all the strict stuff on the head. I've let him lay across me in the sofa and if he's come to me for a fuss, I've done it, but I'm still not letting him get away with treating the house and humans like a playground and I'm ensuring his manners are kept in check too.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, he never used to be great in a class but teaching a settle really worked as did ensuring he was calm before we did the thing we were about to do.
> 
> ...


He will get there Loki used to be incredibly irritating in the evenings. @Emlar has started using meds I don’t know if you saw it might be worth following her journey in case that would help with the shadow chasing. Does he do it less if he’s had a good field run ?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> He will get there Loki used to be incredibly irritating in the evenings. @Emlar has started using meds I don’t know if you saw it might be worth following her journey in case that would help with the shadow chasing. Does he do it less if he’s had a good field run ?


Yes, I saw her post on Insta so will be following with interest.
I haven't noticed that a good field run has lessened his interest in shadows. Getting my phone out is a trigger for him to start looking around though so I have to keep that hidden.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Somehow I'd missed all this! Sorry you're struggling with Ritter @Leanne77. How old is he now? Could a lot of this be put down to teenagerness and he might calm as he gets older? We noticed a difference in Rufus at about 18 months for sure. He could settle much easier.

In some ways, he sounds awesome. I don't think Rufus would cope with doing all those classes. It would over whelmed him I think. So fab that Ritter can focus and settle with other dogs around.

We find having a bit of a routine at home helps for Rufus. Not completely set in stone, but generally similar most days. So he has a bit of crazy/play time, but that is confined to after his evening walk. 

I do think there is a fine line between being strict, but letting them be themselves. It's super hard to find the balance! 

Will definitely keep people up to date with how Rufus gets on with his medication, in case it helps anyone else. He can get very manic when stressed or overwhelmed in a new situation, or if there are lots of people and other dogs around. This is why I don't do agility training with him anymore, it was just too much and he would become too overwhelmed, which would result in resource guarding behaviour and barking, etc.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> Edited to add that the video of him barking was brought on by him seeing a spaniel running 100 yards away. He started to lunge and squeal, tried to get away from me when I took hold of his harness to put him in the car and when he obviously couldn't he started trying to bite my arms. Then we get the barking once he's in his crate.
> 
> Frustrated elicit aggression is what he appears to be suffering from.





Leanne77 said:


> @Cleo38, I'm confused myself tbh. One day he has a great day and surprises me with his ability to cope, then the next day he is a different dog whom I struggle to know what to do with and it's those moments where I think I'm not the right owner and I can't deal with life together if it's going to be like that.
> 
> I do probably need to do something about my own anxiety because it's been going on for years and although I no longer have panic attacks, it really reduces my mental capacity to cope with stress. However, there is a big part of me that goes 'just get on with it, life is hard for everybody' and I don't want to bother the GP when people need appointments for real medical things.
> 
> ...


Firstly, please, please speak to a doctor or appropriate Brain Monsters (TM) professional about the anxiety you're having to contend with because if you're constantly battling a bad brain, you're going to be in a near perpetual state of fight, flight, panic or depression and you shouldn't expect yourself to be able to handle a complicated dog when you're struggling in your own head. You must be exhausted.

What I'm about to say is said from a place of genuine concern for both you and Ritter. I'm always days behind on here but I do follow your posts and progress and I'm rooting for you. 

I'll start by saying how vital it is that you see about helping yourself before you can properly help him. You come first. Make no big decisions until you're 100% happy it's a fully lucid one. 
Not a single one of these questions holds even a crumb of judgement, I'm asking because its what I'd be asking if you came to me for help. 

A few questions for you: 

Have you done any working putting him into drive and coming out of it into calm obedience and back again multiple times in a shirt session? 
Are your training sessions too long? If he is snappy and shouty/generally way over stimulated, is it because he has lost the ability to think clearly? Can he be settled with a lick mat/bone etc immediately after a training session or is he often too excitable to relax? Or is he always settled with something to do and needs to learn how to self sooth and be bored sensibly? 
What do you do when he redirects at you? In my experience, in dogs that do this often (not just , it tends to escalate because it's self-reinforcing. It's easy to see why - owners make GREAT noises to hyped up dogs when they are bitten. 
What are you doing to de-escalate him before he reaches hyperspace? Is it working? 
Do his huge tantrums occur AFTER you have a dip in how you're feeling or BEFORE. I.e. is he the cause of your angst or is he feeding of it? 

Out of interest, does he redirect if you withhold a reward as negative punishment? I ask because a number of the HPR breeds I've worked with have been WAY more offended by a withheld reward than a minor correction (verbal preferably.... and there is a reason im not a huge fan of weimeranas as anything more than being lovely to look at!). 

I'm probably going to get some stick for this and I'm not for a moment suggesting any one takes this as a "you should do THIS" because I don't know you or him, I've never seen you work together, I've never seen you handle him, seen his current understanding of cues with my own eyes, seen if there are any holes to plug in your bond and interactions with each other etc etc so I'm just going to state my experience with working with the Ritters of the world. 

A dog that comes up the lead at me out of redirected frustration or aggression is getting corrected. I will NOT tolerate being bitten unless that dog is scared or injured. 
Obviously we want to avoid ever having to correct in the first place by being able to redirect the chaos onto an appropriate toy or focusing on us but sometimes, the doo doo hits the fan blades and it's about damage control. 
In that moment of frustrated redirection, the dog is usually so hopped up on adrenaline that redirection with food is basically impossible. And if its not, no correction needed, use that food!
Whilst I've seen a few situations where attempts to redirect the dog in that moment onto a toy resulted in the dog being inadvertently for being a chaos demon, as a rule if the dog can be refocused onto a toy, it is still capable of R+ learning. No corrections needed. 
But for the dogs that cannot take food or a toy in thise moments - it is unbelievable bad for them to get themselves into that kind of state regularly. Trigger stacking is a huge issue for these dogs and it makes total sense that they will often have been being total twits for several days before the major blow out occured. They were already heading that way and something would have tipped then over the edge. 
For these reasons, I'm entirely OK with doing what I need to to snap that dog back to reality, even if it is just to give us the chance to get out of dodge. 
Often after a very concise, clear and resounding "absolutely not" of some description, they will dramatically calm down. Are we suppressing in that moment? Of course. But then we go right back to R+ and don't dwell on it. It's something that I'll only do a couple of times. If I were needing to do this repeatedly, it's not working and I'm not going to nag a dog with pointless white noise. 
If one fair correction destroys the relationship you have with your dog, (non specific "you") then that trust was probably rather tenuous to begin with. 
I'll leave that discussion there as I'm probably about to be burned as a witch. 

Finally, and most importantly, can you see yourself living with Ritter for at least another decade? Do you see a future for the two of you? Do you hope for it or does it feel insurmountable? If so, does it only feel that way because some dominance trainer who sounds like he is very unfamiliar with working genuinely high drive dogs and your local community make you feel like it's the case?

Again, please remember that I offer no judgement or scorn. I just feel a little bit more heartbroken for you every time I come on here and find you still cycling through turbulent emotions. I really want to see you both living your best lives together.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I saw that you are on the pill Leanne.
Not saying it is the case for you but a lot of women have found it causes anxiety and depression. 
Might be worth researching and maybe trying being off it to see how you feel.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

So some [email protected] of mine decided to launch himself off a ledge onto a cobbled path and completely wiped out. We were having a nice walk in the woods and he was running round some trees on the bank above me when I recalled him because there was someone coming, and he faceplanted right in front of them. He's scratched up his right knuckle but luckily is otherwise unscathed (just his pride). We were near the vets so I rang them (he was limping right afterwards but was fine after a couple of minutes, but he was bleeding and I wanted him checked over) and finished our walk and drove over. 
He was a complete wimp at the vets. I've never seen him so skittish and worried there before, and we had to go a few times over the summer when he got an eye ulcer and then he got a lump under his chin, so it's not like he hasn't been for ages. He's never loved it, but they've been able to examine him and take bloods before, but he didn't want the vet to touch him and the stethoscope was clearly a monster trying to eat him. I left the room to see if he would be any easier without me there, but the vet said he was really worried and she couldn't listen to his chest and he was being really hand shy (though she did check and clean up the wound which is fine, just need to make sure he doesn't bother it so he's got the doughnut on). I've no idea why he's suddenly become a massive baby. He's never been the most confident around new things, but he easily overcomes his worries. I remember the first time I took him to the woods and he barked at a scary bench, today he had a great time and was very well behaved when a horse rider appeared. The vet (not one I'd seen before) was concerned that he really needed socialising and handling. Thing is he's absolutely fine with me doing things to him. When we had to go to the vets for his ulcer he really didn't want anyone fiddling round his eye (not even me, it was really sore at one point) and I wonder if this had an impact. He's never been hand shy and the vet wasn't pushing him, we spent a good few minutes sitting with him and he gave her kisses, just really didn't want her to touch him. He's not worried by people, he's happy to say hello and be held and touched at agility and training, clearly it's the vets that scared him today. So that's me planning random vet visits to get cuddles and food for the next few months! He needs to go in for neutering at some point next year (he has a retained testicle) and I don't want him feeling that worried. 

Pic of sad boi for payment for reading my essay. You can see the scratches on his leg (and that brown ball bag looking thing under his chin is the end of a bone toy 😂 )


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> So some [email protected] of mine decided to launch himself off a ledge onto a cobbled path and completely wiped out. We were having a nice walk in the woods and he was running round some trees on the bank above me when I recalled him because there was someone coming, and he faceplanted right in front of them. He's scratched up his right knuckle but luckily is otherwise unscathed (just his pride). We were near the vets so I rang them (he was limping right afterwards but was fine after a couple of minutes, but he was bleeding and I wanted him checked over) and finished our walk and drove over.
> He was a complete wimp at the vets. I've never seen him so skittish and worried there before, and we had to go a few times over the summer when he got an eye ulcer and then he got a lump under his chin, so it's not like he hasn't been for ages. He's never loved it, but they've been able to examine him and take bloods before, but he didn't want the vet to touch him and the stethoscope was clearly a monster trying to eat him. I left the room to see if he would be any easier without me there, but the vet said he was really worried and she couldn't listen to his chest and he was being really hand shy (though she did check and clean up the wound which is fine, just need to make sure he doesn't bother it so he's got the doughnut on). I've no idea why he's suddenly become a massive baby. He's never been the most confident around new things, but he easily overcomes his worries. I remember the first time I took him to the woods and he barked at a scary bench, today he had a great time and was very well behaved when a horse rider appeared. The vet (not one I'd seen before) was concerned that he really needed socialising and handling. Thing is he's absolutely fine with me doing things to him. When we had to go to the vets for his ulcer he really didn't want anyone fiddling round his eye (not even me, it was really sore at one point) and I wonder if this had an impact. He's never been hand shy and the vet wasn't pushing him, we spent a good few minutes sitting with him and he gave her kisses, just really didn't want her to touch him. He's not worried by people, he's happy to say hello and be held and touched at agility and training, clearly it's the vets that scared him today. So that's me planning random vet visits to get cuddles and food for the next few months! He needs to go in for neutering at some point next year (he has a retained testicle) and I don't want him feeling that worried.
> 
> Pic of sad boi for payment for reading my essay. You can see the scratches on his leg (and that brown ball bag looking thing under his chin is the end of a bone toy 😂 )
> View attachment 580148


Oh no what a sad day ! Maybe he was feeling sorry for himself after the fall. Or just didn’t like the vet. Boxers send love these things happen.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh no, so sorry to read this @Sarah H, they are such kn*bs at times with no sense of self preservation. Hope he heals quickly.

Definitely some sessions at the vets might be a good thing when he's better & actually this might be something I should also start with Marnie as I've slipped a bit with this, probably because I was always there with Kato during the summer. 

In fact I have the opposite problem with Kato in that am sure he injures himself on purpose so he can visit the vets as he loves it there


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Katalyst I'm going to try and remember to answer everything you asked.

I have done a bit of going in and out of drive as I use a game of tug as a reward after we've done some training, then we go back into some training again. He can struggle to let go of the tug on command but equally he's not _that_ determined to keep hold of it and will release after about 3 commands. He can get a bit grabby and jumpy trying to get the toy again but once it's out of sight he's ok.
AFAIK, our training sessions arent too long. I literally ask for a few repetitions at most of the same thing, or just a couple of minutes of control type exercises, before I release him to run around or before we play again. He's got the attention span of a gnat so I try and stop before he gets fed up with it all. Leaving him wanting more is what I aim for.

As for settling, I sometimes give him something to do, like chewing on his coffee wood stick, but mostly I ask him to settle without having anything to do. He chews Lickimats up, and sees snuffle mats as something to just run around with, ragging them about rather than actually just settling down with them.

I try and turn away from anything that's winding him up, and remove ourselves before he starts his lunging and squealing. That's not always possible, especially if the 'thing' is within sight of our car. That's when he fights me to go back in the car and redirects. I usually just manhandle him into his crate and cover it over with a towel to calm him down. We had a bit of an episode on Sunday at the show. We'd arrived and I let him out to the toilet. Then I had to put him back in the car so I could go check ourselves in, set his crate up etc. Anyway he decided he didnt want to go back in the car and started to have his tantrum. I didnt push him but managed to get him in by throwing a few treats in. That usually doesn't work when he's kicking off at something but on this occassion it was merely a protest, so treats worked.

He's definitely the cause of my angst, but then when he riles me up, he feeds off it too. I dont think there is any correlation between his tantrums and how I feel in as much as I cant think that the huge tantrums he's had have been when I've been feeling particularly low.

If I withhold a reward, he tends to get a bit gobby and jumpy, but I'd say his behaviour is more that he's demanding I give it to him. He doesn't redirect in that instance. However, both Mum and I have noticed he's getting a bit more handy with his teeth just lately, so in protest to something he's started to jump up and nip at clothing, often getting the skin. If you turn and ignore him he'll jump up the back of you and you'll feel his teeth on you. He's got very good bite inhibition and even when he's over threshold, there's so far never been any pressure when he's redirected but at very nearly 12 months old and nearly fully grown physically, we dont want to be feeling any teeth.

It's very difficult to change his focus to me when he's over threshold. Well actually, it's impossible. He's not great at taking food outside anyway as he's too stimulated by the environment, that's why recall has been so difficult. Workng on LLW is tricky because I mark it when he's not pulling, attempt to give him a treat but he's not that bothered.
He has gotten better but we're nowhere near being able to use them for most of the issues I have with him.
The use of toys is marginally better but getting his focus on to me rather than anything else has been a problem from the start.

I want Ritter to stay here, and I want him in my life but the way things currently are, I can't cope with him. Now, Flynn was a challenging dog - he was gobby, highly impulsive, excitable, lacked self control, was a git around other dogs and was anxious too - but he didn't phase me. Yes, I got frustrated with him and handled alot of things badly but I could deal with him and I worked hard on getting him to work with me to the point where he was a nuisance sometimes as he wouldn't leave me alone. Oh how I wish for that now! However, he had a pretty bomb proof temperament as in nothing startled him, he took things generally in his stride, was resilient and wasn't reactive to anything.
So I have lived with a challenging dog before but it does mostly feel that Ritter is many steps too far for me right now and that he's throwing more issues at me without us having resolved any previous ones.
So no, I cant live with him for the next 10+ years without some stuff being under control. I don't want to live with a dog that quite severely restricts my life, which is what he's doing at the moment.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> Oh no what a sad day ! Maybe he was feeling sorry for himself after the fall. Or just didn’t like the vet. Boxers send love these things happen.


Yes I do wonder if he was sore which didn't help. When he 'landed' (lol) his front feet buckled and he landed on his side and was limping for a minute afterwards. I did give him a good check over and only found the wounds on his leg, but he probably has some bruising too (he's on metacam for a couple of days to take the edge off). 
Bronte sends snogs back to the boys.


Cleo38 said:


> Oh no, so sorry to read this @Sarah H, they are such kn*bs at times with no sense of self preservation. Hope he heals quickly.
> 
> Definitely some sessions at the vets might be a good thing when he's better & actually this might be something I should also start with Marnie as I've slipped a bit with this, probably because I was always there with Kato during the summer.
> 
> In fact I have the opposite problem with Kato in that am sure he injures himself on purpose so he can visit the vets as he loves it there


He has NO sense of self-preservation, or personal space or anything like that! I called him and literally saw it in slow motion as he launched himself off the bank. Idiot. He is fine, but these dogs will give me a heart attack I'm sure!

It's one of those things that I've never bothered to do as my dogs have ether been absolutely fine, of just not bad enough for me to worry about it. (I think some level of anxiety at the vets is normal). Nooka hates it but she just lets stuff get done and then we leave. She's never going to be a dog who will 'get over it' no matter how many times we go in. She doesn't like strangers or being poked and prodded, so it's just a part of life we both just get done as matter-of-factly as possible and then she knows it's over and we go for a walk. 
Our old family terrier used to LOVE the vet as he loved people, dogs, cats etc so it was a great day out for him!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I had another private lesson with my IGP trainer yesterday. Building on the last lesson, Marnie was working on activating the helper & maintaining a firm grip (on the bite pillow) under mild distractions. She did so well & has such a lovely grip that he ended up getting her on to a training sleeve despite it only being her second lesson.

We did several short sessions & she was so full of herself! Every time I got her out she was pulling me to the field so she could go & bark ... so funny. I knew she would love this but whilst she did she was still very good at outing the sleeve when asked.

Such a great session then at the end my trainer said about getting Prince Archer out for a go. OMG, Archers face when he realised he was getting a go!!! He was awesome as always & was so lovely to see him really go for it


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Sarah H said:


> So some [email protected] of mine decided to launch himself off a ledge onto a cobbled path and completely wiped out. We were having a nice walk in the woods and he was running round some trees on the bank above me when I recalled him because there was someone coming, and he faceplanted right in front of them. He's scratched up his right knuckle but luckily is otherwise unscathed (just his pride). We were near the vets so I rang them (he was limping right afterwards but was fine after a couple of minutes, but he was bleeding and I wanted him checked over) and finished our walk and drove over.
> He was a complete wimp at the vets. I've never seen him so skittish and worried there before, and we had to go a few times over the summer when he got an eye ulcer and then he got a lump under his chin, so it's not like he hasn't been for ages. He's never loved it, but they've been able to examine him and take bloods before, but he didn't want the vet to touch him and the stethoscope was clearly a monster trying to eat him. I left the room to see if he would be any easier without me there, but the vet said he was really worried and she couldn't listen to his chest and he was being really hand shy (though she did check and clean up the wound which is fine, just need to make sure he doesn't bother it so he's got the doughnut on). I've no idea why he's suddenly become a massive baby. He's never been the most confident around new things, but he easily overcomes his worries. I remember the first time I took him to the woods and he barked at a scary bench, today he had a great time and was very well behaved when a horse rider appeared. The vet (not one I'd seen before) was concerned that he really needed socialising and handling. Thing is he's absolutely fine with me doing things to him. When we had to go to the vets for his ulcer he really didn't want anyone fiddling round his eye (not even me, it was really sore at one point) and I wonder if this had an impact. He's never been hand shy and the vet wasn't pushing him, we spent a good few minutes sitting with him and he gave her kisses, just really didn't want her to touch him. He's not worried by people, he's happy to say hello and be held and touched at agility and training, clearly it's the vets that scared him today. So that's me planning random vet visits to get cuddles and food for the next few months! He needs to go in for neutering at some point next year (he has a retained testicle) and I don't want him feeling that worried.
> 
> Pic of sad boi for payment for reading my essay. You can see the scratches on his leg (and that brown ball bag looking thing under his chin is the end of a bone toy 😂 )
> View attachment 580148


Poor boy! Looks really sore  I hope he's feeling better today.

Also, LOL at the bone under his chin! Had to look twice! 😂


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

How's your boy doing today @Sarah H ?


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Such a great session then at the end my trainer said about getting Prince Archer out for a go. OMG, Archers face when he realised he was getting a go!!! He was awesome as always & was so lovely to see him really go for it


So glad you had a good session - sounds like Marnie is doing brilliantly. And so good that Archer got to have a go ♥

I am thinking that I might have to consult a different trainer for Ava. She is really good in the house and is so engaged and focussed. She is also doing well at gundog training and despite now being in group classes she is able to engage and focus. BUT as soon as we go out on our own it’s still like I don’t exist. The pulling like a train has improved and we have been doing some hunting games but still most of the time she is just so focussed on the environment that I am literally just the thing stopping her from doing what she wants. If I let her off the lead she would just be off without a backward glance…
It is really frustrating and I know that I SHOULD be able to do this. She is a fantastic dog and if I could just work out how to work with her drive we could actually get out and go to nice places. Instead I feel guilty because she just doesn’t seem to get any pleasure out of walks with me 🙁


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> So glad you had a good session - sounds like Marnie is doing brilliantly. And so good that Archer got to have a go ♥
> 
> I am thinking that I might have to consult a different trainer for Ava. She is really good in the house and is so engaged and focussed. She is also doing well at gundog training and despite now being in group classes she is able to engage and focus. BUT as soon as we go out on our own it’s still like I don’t exist. The pulling like a train has improved and we have been doing some hunting games but still most of the time she is just so focussed on the environment that I am literally just the thing stopping her from doing what she wants. If I let her off the lead she would just be off without a backward glance…
> It is really frustrating and I know that I SHOULD be able to do this. She is a fantastic dog and if I could just work out how to work with her drive we could actually get out and go to nice places. Instead I feel guilty because she just doesn’t seem to get any pleasure out of walks with me 🙁


It is a tricky one as it can be so frustrating. I know with Roxy it took quite a while before she was interested in me.

Fantastic that shes doing so well in group classes so be chuffed with your training. Don't get caught up in things you 'should' be able to do, we all need a fresh set of eyes at times. Have you got a trainer in mind?

Funny as I am having the opposite with Kato atm, he won't leave me alone when we're out. Honestly he goes from one extreme to the other! I shouldn't moan as he is on such good form lately, he cracks me up.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> It is a tricky one as it can be so frustrating. I know with Roxy it took quite a while before she was interested in me.
> 
> Fantastic that shes doing so well in group classes so be chuffed with your training. Don't get caught up in things you 'should' be able to do, we all need a fresh set of eyes at times. Have you got a trainer in mind?
> 
> Funny as I am having the opposite with Kato atm, he won't leave me alone when we're out. Honestly he goes from one extreme to the other! I shouldn't moan as he is on such good form lately, he cracks me up.


I am really pleased with her at training and she tries so hard - even when she finds it really difficult to concentrate. It’s just that I can’t get over this stumbling block. We do lots of work at home on disengagement etc. and she is great, but as soon as we get out she has no interest in food or toys or me running round like an idiot with food or toys. Like at home and at training she LOVES retrieving. As soon as she even sees a dummy she is leaping at me and laser-focussed on it. If I take the same dummy out in a walk she has absolutely no interest. 

I don’t have a trainer in mind. Ideally I would like someone with experience with gundogs/GSPs but they tend to be ‘traditional’ trainers and I don’t want to just stick a slip lead and electric collar on her. 
Of course it doesn’t have to be a gundog person - but I am not great at finding people and I would like someone who will understand the problem. I know that GSPs are not special snowflakes, but at the same time (from talking to other GSP owners) they can be quite challenging and the standard ‘just use higher-value food’ is not going to cut it…


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> How's your boy doing today @Sarah H ?


He's fine, thanks for asking! He was being an idiot with his bull horn earlier and I recorded it. (if your sound is off he is having a really good conversation with his chew!)







Dimwit said:


> So glad you had a good session - sounds like Marnie is doing brilliantly. And so good that Archer got to have a go ♥
> 
> I am thinking that I might have to consult a different trainer for Ava. She is really good in the house and is so engaged and focussed. She is also doing well at gundog training and despite now being in group classes she is able to engage and focus. BUT as soon as we go out on our own it’s still like I don’t exist. The pulling like a train has improved and we have been doing some hunting games but still most of the time she is just so focussed on the environment that I am literally just the thing stopping her from doing what she wants. If I let her off the lead she would just be off without a backward glance…
> It is really frustrating and I know that I SHOULD be able to do this. She is a fantastic dog and if I could just work out how to work with her drive we could actually get out and go to nice places. Instead I feel guilty because she just doesn’t seem to get any pleasure out of walks with me 🙁


Don't get caught up on what you should or shouldn't be able to do. Just because she can do stuff in one environment doesn't mean she will be able to do it in a different one. Dogs have a really good sense of context, you just need to start blurring the lines. When she does have any kind of focus on you on a walk then capture that and use it as much as you can being as fun and interesting as you can.
Have you tried just standing in one spot, letting her take in all the smells etc in just that one spot, then seeing if she will engage with you? Sometimes when they know there will be more and more stuff to engage themselves with they just don't put you in the picture.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> I am really pleased with her at training and she tries so hard - even when she finds it really difficult to concentrate. It’s just that I can’t get over this stumbling block. We do lots of work at home on disengagement etc. and she is great, but as soon as we get out she has no interest in food or toys or me running round like an idiot with food or toys. Like at home and at training she LOVES retrieving. As soon as she even sees a dummy she is leaping at me and laser-focussed on it. If I take the same dummy out in a walk she has absolutely no interest.
> 
> I don’t have a trainer in mind. Ideally I would like someone with experience with gundogs/GSPs but they tend to be ‘traditional’ trainers and I don’t want to just stick a slip lead and electric collar on her.
> Of course it doesn’t have to be a gundog person - but I am not great at finding people and I would like someone who will understand the problem. I know that GSPs are not special snowflakes, but at the same time (from talking to other GSP owners) they can be quite challenging and the standard ‘just use higher-value food’ is not going to cut it…


Yes, it was similar with Kato. I've sort of come to think tho that it's not really about 'higher value' food but more the general interest regarding interacting with you.

With Kato I sort of made myself his partner in exploring the environment. We splashed in puddles, ran through long grass, dug up mole hills, etc. Even now when the swans are flying over head (they are coming in this way for the winter) we both stop & look up at them ... he then looks at me to see if I am also amazed by them


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, it was similar with Kato. I've sort of come to think tho that it's not really about 'higher value' food but more the general interest regarding interacting with you.
> 
> With Kato I sort of made myself his partner in exploring the environment. We splashed in puddles, ran through long grass, dug up mole hills, etc. Even now when the swans are flying over head (they are coming in this way for the winter) we both stop & look up at them ... he then looks at me to see if I am also amazed by them


Ooh that reminds me of Simone Mueller's book - Hunting Together. Might be worth a look @Dimwit


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> Ooh that reminds me of Simone Mueller's book - Hunting Together. Might be worth a look @Dimwit


That's the book that @O2.0 has recommended so much. I've got it on my Kindle but still haven't read it


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> That's the book that @O2.0 has recommended so much. I've got it on my Kindle but still haven't read it


I literally just looked to my left and there it was, on the little table next to me under some other books I've started reading but not finished.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Sarah H said:


> Have you tried just standing in one spot, letting her take in all the smells etc in just that one spot, then seeing if she will engage with you? Sometimes when they know there will be more and more stuff to engage themselves with they just don't put you in the picture.


Yes. She doesn’t engage with me at all. She will just constantly scan the area for anything more interesting and will then start with the incessant barking and try to drag me along. If I walk her in endless circles or figure-of-eights she will eventually check in but then if I try to walk off with her I lose her again. 


Cleo38 said:


> With Kato I sort of made myself his partner in exploring the environment. We splashed in puddles, ran through long grass, dug up mole hills, etc. Even now when the swans are flying over head (they are coming in this way for the winter) we both stop & look up at them ... he then looks at me to see if I am also amazed by them


This is the thing. I need to find a way to interact with her rather than just being an obstacle to her. That’s why I think I need another pair of eyes as it feels like we have glimmers of success but I don’t really know what I’m doing so I can’t build on it. 


Sarah H said:


> Ooh that reminds me of Simone Mueller's book - Hunting Together. Might be worth a look @Dimwit


I have that book and it has been really useful in that I can now walk her locally and get some level of interaction with her. But anywhere new or if anything appears then she just loses it.

I know, looking back at where we were 6 months ago that we have made progress, and I don’t mind slow progress - it’s just I feel like I don’t know what I am doing and I don’t want to let her down. She is an awesome dog who had a really cra**y start to life and I just want to give her a good life.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Yes. She doesn’t engage with me at all. She will just constantly scan the area for anything more interesting and will then start with the incessant barking and try to drag me along. If I walk her in endless circles or figure-of-eights she will eventually check in but then if I try to walk off with her I lose her again.
> 
> This is the thing. I need to find a way to interact with her rather than just being an obstacle to her. That’s why I think I need another pair of eyes as it feels like we have glimmers of success but I don’t really know what I’m doing so I can’t build on it.
> 
> ...


How is she when you take her to an enclosed field? Can you use those times to build on games, etc whilst also then giving her freedom to do her own thing? I have cues with the dogs regarding training sessions then 'all done' when they can go off

I wouldn't worry too much about loss of focus on new places as she's made such great progress in other areas & you've really not had her than long.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> How is she when you take her to an enclosed field? Can you use those times to build on games, etc whilst also then giving her freedom to do her own thing? I have cues with the dogs regarding training sessions then 'all done' when they can go off
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about loss of focus on new places as she's made such great progress in other areas & you've really not had her than long.


In an enclosed field she pulls like a train and then barks constantly until she is let off the lead (I tried not letting her off until she calmed down but it just didn't happen and she got more and more frustrated).
Once I let her off and she has had a good run she will come back to me (ish - she comes over to my general direction but then skirts around me so that she can't be caught). I started taking a home-made flirt pole which she will then play with so i have been working on bringing in some self-control with that - she is too over-aroused after running around to get any other useful work out of her. But obviously letting her run round first is not really an option in open spaces because she just wouldn't come back  

It's hard because she is like 2 different dogs - at home and (to a lesser extent) at training she is really clingy, loves training and is so desperate to please. But then we go somewhere new and I am nothing to her...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> In an enclosed field she pulls like a train and then barks constantly until she is let off the lead (I tried not letting her off until she calmed down but it just didn't happen and she got more and more frustrated).
> Once I let her off and she has had a good run she will come back to me (ish - she comes over to my general direction but then skirts around me so that she can't be caught). I started taking a home-made flirt pole which she will then play with so i have been working on bringing in some self-control with that - she is too over-aroused after running around to get any other useful work out of her. But obviously letting her run round first is not really an option in open spaces because she just wouldn't come back
> 
> It's hard because she is like 2 different dogs - at home and (to a lesser extent) at training she is really clingy, loves training and is so desperate to please. But then we go somewhere new and I am nothing to her...


I think this is pretty common tho & is just something you need to work on. How is she with playing with balls/toys? Could you do something that involved throwing the toy for her to chase then recalling her once she's caught it & throwing the other one? So she doesn't have to actually come back right to you for the next one to be thrown? I used to play that with Marnie (her cue is "switch) when she can release the ball she's holding & I throw the next one. Again something to build to but involves you without Ava thinking she HAS to come to you for the game to continue.

You can then use this & make yourself more central. Ask for her to give you the toy, to play tug with it, etc .... mix it up a bit so it's all sorts of scenarios. My friend did similar as her dog was slightly wary of other people. So she played these sort of games with another person interacting occasionally & eventually her dog was actually taking the ball to the other person as well as her.

Have you thought about having a look at Denise Fenzis paid content on The High Drive Dog. I pay for this (I think it's about £10 a month) but has lots of stuff on there & if you don't find it helps much then cancel your subscription).

I know some stuff is relating to sports but alot is very good training clips & ideas which can be used by everyone Login


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Dimwit said:


> In an enclosed field she pulls like a train and then barks constantly until she is let off the lead (I tried not letting her off until she calmed down but it just didn't happen and she got more and more frustrated).
> Once I let her off and she has had a good run she will come back to me (ish - she comes over to my general direction but then skirts around me so that she can't be caught). I started taking a home-made flirt pole which she will then play with so i have been working on bringing in some self-control with that - she is too over-aroused after running around to get any other useful work out of her. But obviously letting her run round first is not really an option in open spaces because she just wouldn't come back
> 
> It's hard because she is like 2 different dogs - at home and (to a lesser extent) at training she is really clingy, loves training and is so desperate to please. But then we go somewhere new and I am nothing to her...



It's probably not a consolation, but Charlie acts like I'm invisible a lot of the time, it's like he's staring straight through me 🙈

I'm basically like the dog version of the Pied Piper. Strange dogs are always trying to get into my treat bag, or following me around.......all apart from my very own little rat!
I had chicken dippers for him yesterday and he was just like, "pfffft! whatever, loser!"

Sometimes we'll have great moments like this morning where he actually listened a few times and came back to me, away from other dogs (never realised how annoyingly squeaky & high pitched my voice can get when happy!)
After being fairly good, he barked to try and make other dogs play with him, and tried to run away with a group of old people on an organised walk 🤨

If I engage with him too much, he takes it as an invitation to beat me up - I actually had to buy brown leggings to hide how muddy I am all the time. I am definitely the scruffiest in our training class 😂

He also won't sit or lay down on wet/long grass...which is great given that we train in a field, so he'll just squat for a few moments, with his butt hovering above the ground, or he'll bow to avoid his back end going down. I might actually have to take some astro turf for him to sit on.
Progress wise, we're being beaten by dinky doodle things! 😂

I don't have any useful advice (I'm being outsmarted by a Jack Russell-ish thing) but you are definitely giving her a great life, and you will definitely get there with her.....a lot faster than me and Charlie! 😉 he won't even let me leave the park when I want to!
...but I figure if I just keep trying, eventually everything won't be so shiny & new, and super exciting to him, and one day we might look like normal dog walkers...not the local characters 😉


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I think this is pretty common tho & is just something you need to work on. How is she with playing with balls/toys? Could you do something that involved throwing the toy for her to chase then recalling her once she's caught it & throwing the other one? So she doesn't have to actually come back right to you for the next one to be thrown? I used to play that with Marnie (her cue is "switch) when she can release the ball she's holding & I throw the next one. Again something to build to but involves you without Ava thinking she HAS to come to you for the game to continue.
> 
> You can then use this & make yourself more central. Ask for her to give you the toy, to play tug with it, etc .... mix it up a bit so it's all sorts of scenarios. My friend did similar as her dog was slightly wary of other people. So she played these sort of games with another person interacting occasionally & eventually her dog was actually taking the ball to the other person as well as her.
> 
> ...


Last time I tried taking balls/tuggy toy she was not interested at all - but I have a secure field booked this weekend so will try again.
Her toy switch is usually very good - when I first got her she was a bit resource guard-y with toys and tended to parade with them so I worked hard on switch, which is how I taught her to retrieve to my hand (ish, that is still a bit hit and miss )

I'll look up Denise Fenzi, I really like what I have seen of hers. I find even stuff relating to sports can often be applied to other situations, and Ava is certainly high drive!



Gemmaa said:


> It's probably not a consolation, but Charlie acts like I'm invisible a lot of the time, it's like he's staring straight through me 🙈
> 
> I'm basically like the dog version of the Pied Piper. Strange dogs are always trying to get into my treat bag, or following me around.......all apart from my very own little rat!
> I had chicken dippers for him yesterday and he was just like, "pfffft! whatever, loser!"
> ...


That is some consolation (misery loves company and all that ). It is good though to know that other people have similar struggles.
I can definitely sympathise with the wet grass problem - Ava is not too bad and thankfully for gundog training we don't tend to use down at all, and most of the sit work is done using placeboards. But Sprocket was a nightmare. He perfected the art of hovering and would even 'lie down' with just his paws actually touching the ground!

Thanks for all the support - usually I try to be quite positive and look at how far we have come, but then an issue crops up, or I start to think about how much I still have to work on and the anxiety/depression rear their heads and I feel like an idiot who knows nothing about training dogs...


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Dimwit said:


> Last time I tried taking balls/tuggy toy she was not interested at all - but I have a secure field booked this weekend so will try again.
> Her toy switch is usually very good - when I first got her she was a bit resource guard-y with toys and tended to parade with them so I worked hard on switch, which is how I taught her to retrieve to my hand (ish, that is still a bit hit and miss )
> 
> I'll look up Denise Fenzi, I really like what I have seen of hers. I find even stuff relating to sports can often be applied to other situations, and Ava is certainly high drive!
> ...


I'm giving serious consideration to a large drink before training tomorrow 😬 😂

I think we've all had/are having those moments. I feel like a right plank most days. I'll be at one end of the long line calling him & flapping a bit of meat around, like he's a bird of prey, but he'll have turned completely deaf, because DOG FRIEND!!!! Or at the more insulting end of the scale, a stick 🤨

I used to tell people his age because he was so cute and tiny, and now I tell them as an excuse 😉


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Last time I tried taking balls/tuggy toy she was not interested at all - but I have a secure field booked this weekend so will try again.
> Her toy switch is usually very good - when I first got her she was a bit resource guard-y with toys and tended to parade with them so I worked hard on switch, which is how I taught her to retrieve to my hand (ish, that is still a bit hit and miss )
> 
> I'll look up Denise Fenzi, I really like what I have seen of hers. I find even stuff relating to sports can often be applied to other situations, and Ava is certainly high drive!
> ...


It really is a matter of taking time to understand your dog & that's not going to happen instantly. Maybe just play with the toys by yourself for a bit. No pressure on her at all but just play with it, & actually try to have fun with it not just flicking it about aimlessly.

There is a really lovely clip in one of Ivan Balabanov's videos where he is with a dog who won't play much (inside or out) so he plays with the toy himself. He invites her in at times & sometimes the dog engages a bit but sometimes she doesn't. He's really sweating at the end (he's based in Florida) but he explains that he was playing with the toy without pressurising the dog. I think it was in his garden & the dog was sort of sniffing about but the longer it went on the less she roamed & the more interest she displayed. 

At the end he spoke of what he wanted out of it & that many people would be disappointed that they put in so much effort with not much back but the dog did give glimmers of interest & those instances can be built on.

I was out with Kato earlier & he now brings me things he's found to play with when we are out. His latest obsession is teasel (he always has fads of what he likes). When he was tiny he found some & was both scared of it but fascinated with it. Now he's a big brave boy & not scared of it (!) so he was going nuts today mucking about with it.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

@Dimwit know that you are not alone!
I took Ritter to his breeder yesterday and we went in their barn as it was secure to let him off and there _should_ have been nothing much to interest him. Yeah, righto! He was running round like a loon, like it was the most exciting place on Earth. So we let him get it out of his system before trying any training. She wanted to see his obedience stuff which she was impressed with, she liked the fact he wasnt afraid to explore, jump on things, stick his head in nooks and crannies etc. Then we stood chatting for quite a while and he chilled out, albeit with quite a bit of whinging. Then we attempted a sit stay and recall, he decided he was going to run around like a loon again and not recall. So, if he wont recall in a fairly boring barn, he's never going to do it out on a walk.
We spoke about letting him off a lead and the problems I have with getting him engaged etc. She's fairly relaxed about dogs bogging off, it doesn't phase her so she was quite prepared to let him loose on their land to see what he'd do. I said absolutely not.
We did actually discuss ecollars. I was always dead against them, always thought I'd rather keep my dog on a long line than use that tool. However, after having to keep a dog on a long line, you realise how annoying and impractical they are, plus how dangerous they can be when wrapped around you or the dog and the dog is moving at speed. Plus for high energy dogs, they dont fulfill their need to actually fully stretch their legs.
So, it's an option that's there for me to try when I visit again whilst I build my confidence, work on engagement and control and attempt to achieve what we need to so that he gets the exercise he needs whilst remaining safe.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> It really is a matter of taking time to understand your dog & that's not going to happen instantly. Maybe just play with the toys by yourself for a bit. No pressure on her at all but just play with it, & actually try to have fun with it not just flicking it about aimlessly.
> 
> There is a really lovely clip in one of Ivan Balabanov's videos where he is with a dog who won't play much (inside or out) so he plays with the toy himself. He invites her in at times & sometimes the dog engages a bit but sometimes she doesn't. He's really sweating at the end (he's based in Florida) but he explains that he was playing with the toy without pressurising the dog. I think it was in his garden & the dog was sort of sniffing about but the longer it went on the less she roamed & the more interest she displayed.
> 
> ...


I'll try that this weekend (at least in a secure field nobody else can see me looking like I've gone completely mad as I chase a tuggy round on my own  


Leanne77 said:


> @Dimwit know that you are not alone!
> I took Ritter to his breeder yesterday and we went in their barn as it was secure to let him off and there _should_ have been nothing much to interest him. Yeah, righto! He was running round like a loon, like it was the most exciting place on Earth. So we let him get it out of his system before trying any training. She wanted to see his obedience stuff which she was impressed with, she liked the fact he wasnt afraid to explore, jump on things, stick his head in nooks and crannies etc. Then we stood chatting for quite a while and he chilled out, albeit with quite a bit of whinging. Then we attempted a sit stay and recall, he decided he was going to run around like a loon again and not recall. So, if he wont recall in a fairly boring barn, he's never going to do it out on a walk.
> We spoke about letting him off a lead and the problems I have with getting him engaged etc. *She's fairly relaxed about dogs bogging off, it doesn't phase her so she was quite prepared to let him loose on their land to see what he'd do*. I said absolutely not.
> We did actually discuss ecollars. I was always dead against them, always thought I'd rather keep my dog on a long line than use that tool. However, after having to keep a dog on a long line, you realise how annoying and impractical they are, plus how dangerous they can be when wrapped around you or the dog and the dog is moving at speed. Plus for high energy dogs, they dont fulfill their need to actually fully stretch their legs.
> So, it's an option that's there for me to try when I visit again whilst I build my confidence, work on engagement and control and attempt to achieve what we need to so that he gets the exercise he needs whilst remaining safe.


I'm like you - absolutely not. Though I guess it depends a bit on where you live etc. We have livestock and some very nasty, fast roads round by me - not to mention all the dogs and people and the ever-increasing numbers of muntjac so there are just too many ways she could hurt herself/be a nuisance. 
I'm glad the breeder was pleased with Ritter's obedience. He does sound so similar to Ava in many ways - when she's good she's fantastic, but then the next second she's shouting her head off at nothing and attempting to drag me into the next county 

Somehow, even though they don't get huge numbers of GSPs at my gundog training there are 4 of them in the group lessons I am doing, it's really interesting to see how we pretty much all have the same sorts of problems to varying degrees.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Denise Fenzi is doing a recall webinar soon. If you've seen Xen's recall then it's really very impressive.









Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Webinars


Online dog training classes for obedience, rally, agility, tracking, nosework, dog behavior, freestyle, and foundation skills.




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> @Dimwit know that you are not alone!
> I took Ritter to his breeder yesterday and we went in their barn as it was secure to let him off and there _should_ have been nothing much to interest him. Yeah, righto! He was running round like a loon, like it was the most exciting place on Earth. So we let him get it out of his system before trying any training. She wanted to see his obedience stuff which she was impressed with, she liked the fact he wasnt afraid to explore, jump on things, stick his head in nooks and crannies etc. Then we stood chatting for quite a while and he chilled out, albeit with quite a bit of whinging. Then we attempted a sit stay and recall, he decided he was going to run around like a loon again and not recall. So, if he wont recall in a fairly boring barn, he's never going to do it out on a walk.
> We spoke about letting him off a lead and the problems I have with getting him engaged etc. She's fairly relaxed about dogs bogging off, it doesn't phase her so she was quite prepared to let him loose on their land to see what he'd do. I said absolutely not.
> We did actually discuss ecollars. I was always dead against them, always thought I'd rather keep my dog on a long line than use that tool. However, after having to keep a dog on a long line, you realise how annoying and impractical they are, plus how dangerous they can be when wrapped around you or the dog and the dog is moving at speed. Plus for high energy dogs, they dont fulfill their need to actually fully stretch their legs.
> So, it's an option that's there for me to try when I visit again whilst I build my confidence, work on engagement and control and attempt to achieve what we need to so that he gets the exercise he needs whilst remaining safe.


As I've posted I use an ecollar (Chameleon) for recall with Kato, more as a secondary cue than P+ as I only use low stimulation.

If you do go down this route then I would spend several weeks conditioning Ritter to it (initially wearing it unactivated) then using it with low stim (pressure on/off) for exercises he knows & can do.

I spent weeks doing this with Kato so he completely understood what the stimulation meant. For me it's a really great tool but I had someone experienced show me how to use it effectively. I never want to be one of those people just blasting my dog in frustration.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Denise Fenzi is doing a recall webinar soon. If you've seen Xen's recall then it's really very impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds good. I also am tempted by the Leslie McDevitt ‘silence is golden’ one that is part of the webinar sale…


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Denise Fenzi is doing a recall webinar soon. If you've seen Xen's recall then it's really very impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm feeling rather star-struck, I posted a video of Penny recalling on her FB post about the webinar, and she liked and commented on it! 😳 😳 😳


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Dimwit said:


> Sounds good. I also am tempted by the Leslie McDevitt ‘silence is golden’ one that is part of the webinar sale…


I've done a lot of the Leslie McDevitt control unleashed stuff with Penny. One of my friends teaches a certified Control Unleashed class and teaches a lot of the protocols in CU.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> As I've posted I use an ecollar (Chameleon) for recall with Kato, more as a secondary cue than P+ as I only use low stimulation.
> 
> If you do go down this route then I would spend several weeks conditioning Ritter to it (initially wearing it unactivated) then using it with low stim (pressure on/off) for exercises he knows & can do.
> 
> I spent weeks doing this with Kato so he completely understood what the stimulation meant. For me it's a really great tool but I had someone experienced show me how to use it effectively. I never want to be one of those people just blasting my dog in frustration.


I wont initially be using it, and from what I gather, it will be on low stim anyway. I know nothing about the levels you get on them but she used level 6 for Ritter's littermate who got returned. One of her previous dogs she had it on 95 before he would respond. 
The plan is we let him off on their land, I give the whistle commands and she has the remote so she is in control of activating it if he doesnt obey. I have no idea of how it will go or how I will feel about it tbh.

I've had quite a few people suggest ecollars to me and I was immediately dismissive but I'm starting to think they do have a place if used correctly and you're not frying your dog.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I wont initially be using it, and from what I gather, it will be on low stim anyway. I know nothing about the levels you get on them but she used level 6 for Ritter's littermate who got returned. One of her previous dogs she had it on 95 before he would respond.
> The plan is we let him off on their land, I give the whistle commands and she has the remote so she is in control of activating it if he doesnt obey. I have no idea of how it will go or how I will feel about it tbh.
> 
> I've had quite a few people suggest ecollars to me and I was immediately dismissive but I'm starting to think they do have a place if used correctly and you're not frying your dog.


That's honestly not how I would use it. The dog needs to understand what it means & how they should respond. That's why you need to start with low level exercises they know & can be successful in. It should also be you using it during this period so you can also work on your timing (hence starting with easy excersises for both of you).

If you have to use high levels in a training scenario then the dog doesn't understand the exercise IMO. Personally I would avoid this sort of training using an ecollar as it doesn't sound like teaching the dog anything but simply punishing.

Edited to add: You should also be testing the collar on yourself so you can understand the levels as some models increase intensity quite vastly between the levels while other have gradual increases.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

@Leanne77 I hope it goes well with the behaviourist today.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> @Leanne77 I hope it goes well with the behaviourist today.


She's not long left us actually. 
So we did quite a bit of work in the house first, getting him to settle on a specific mat and working on duration. She played choices games with him and got him to use his brain to work out how to get the treat. So, he did very well at all that.
Then we went just a few hundred yards outside where he almost immediately saw a kid with a football, which is his absolute nemesis. He of course sky rocketed so she quickly got a toy out to redirect him. We saw other dogs etc so she showed me how to get his focus onto the toy, then, once I have the toy back, asking him for a few simple things like a hand touch, a sit etc and to scatter a few treats to bring him back down before walking off.
So, he did well at that and she commented that he's already better than 80-90% of the dogs she sees and not that bad at all. He's got good focus but needs to learn to deal with his frustration.
However, he struggled once we got back into the house and worked on settling again. He knew her bag with all the great toys in was in the kitchen so he had a hard time taking his mind off that. He did redirect onto her a little bit as he was barging about trying to get the bag and she wouldn't let him.
Then we tried enforced rest in his crate but he was too wound up for that. I personally know when I can get away with crating him and when I cant. I get him settled out of the crate before I move him into it otherwise he kicks off.
So I have 2 lots of homework and that's to work on the settle indoors with duration, and our homework outdoors is to get him to work for the toy, so he has to offer something before he gets it, and to know that when the toy is away we calm down again.
It was quite reassuring to hear he's not that bad and that I've already clearly put in quite a bit of work but if he's not that bad, I dread to think what the others she deals with are like!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> She's not long left us actually.
> So we did quite a bit of work in the house first, getting him to settle on a specific mat and working on duration. She played choices games with him and got him to use his brain to work out how to get the treat. So, he did very well at all that.
> Then we went just a few hundred yards outside where he almost immediately saw a kid with a football, which is his absolute nemesis. He of course sky rocketed so she quickly got a toy out to redirect him. We saw other dogs etc so she showed me how to get his focus onto the toy, then, once I have the toy back, asking him for a few simple things like a hand touch, a sit etc and to scatter a few treats to bring him back down before walking off.
> So, he did well at that and she commented that he's already better than 80-90% of the dogs she sees and not that bad at all. He's got good focus but needs to learn to deal with his frustration.
> ...


Im glad it went well I hope it reassured you. Did she recommend anything for the shadow chasing ?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> Im glad it went well I hope it reassured you. Did she recommend anything for the shadow chasing ?


No, nothing yet but he's actually improved on that anyway. He'll still look around at the walls but I tend to just ignore that, so as to not draw attention to it hoping he'll just get bored. If I see him get overly interested, I just say his name and praise when he looks at me. I also try and praise if he looks away voluntarily.
He's more or less stopped trying to 'catch' them or jump at the walls.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> No, nothing yet but he's actually improved on that anyway. He'll still look around at the walls but I tend to just ignore that, so as to not draw attention to it hoping he'll just get bored. If I see him get overly interested, I just say his name and praise when he looks at me. I also try and praise if he looks away voluntarily.
> He's more or less stopped trying to 'catch' them or jump at the walls.


That’s all really positive are you feeling better about him?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh that's really nice to get reassurance  Scatter is such a good way to help them re-engage the thinking brain, you can put it on cue too. Sounds very promising


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> She's not long left us actually.
> So we did quite a bit of work in the house first, getting him to settle on a specific mat and working on duration. She played choices games with him and got him to use his brain to work out how to get the treat. So, he did very well at all that.
> Then we went just a few hundred yards outside where he almost immediately saw a kid with a football, which is his absolute nemesis. He of course sky rocketed so she quickly got a toy out to redirect him. We saw other dogs etc so she showed me how to get his focus onto the toy, then, once I have the toy back, asking him for a few simple things like a hand touch, a sit etc and to scatter a few treats to bring him back down before walking off.
> So, he did well at that and she commented that he's already better than 80-90% of the dogs she sees and not that bad at all. He's got good focus but needs to learn to deal with his frustration.
> ...


Ah that's so good! I think it makes such a difference to have the reassurance and backup of someone else.
I felt so much better when our trainer just said Charlie was a lot of terrier, and that I'll train out the bad stuff. 

Really pleased for you


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> That’s all really positive are you feeling better about him?


I felt better about him tbh after we'd seen his breeder. Although she gave me no really useful advice, for example when I asked about the shadow chasing she just skimmed over it with 'he'll grow out of it', she just seemed to think he was normal given his age and breeding. She did say this litter was the essiest they'd bred 🤣. I'll know in future to research specific lines much more!
So for me, he's a nightmare but in the grand scheme of things he's probably not that bad which does make me feel there is hope.
I think my confidence has gone up a bit and I feel calmer dealing with him.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's great @Leanne77, so glad it went well & you are feeling more positive


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

So happy to hear you've come away from today feeling more positive @Leanne77 
If he's one of their easier dogs I dread to think what the other pups were like!!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Sarah H said:


> So happy to hear you've come away from today feeling more positive @Leanne77
> If he's one of their easier dogs I dread to think what the other pups were like!!


Since having a Tickencote, I've since learned they are one of the hardest, fastest hunting lines in the UK. It wasn't until I got one that people started to make little comments like 'you'd better have good eyesight' etc. Why did nobody tell me all this before?! This litter is their last after being one of the longest in the breed since GWPs came to the UK. Apparently this litter was bred with temperament first and foremost as that wasn't always their priority.
I've got a couple of mantrailing sessions booked with Ritter, and he has a fun swim session booked (he's never swam before) and I'm actually excited rather than feeling dread.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Since having a Tickencote, I've since learned they are one of the hardest, fastest hunting lines in the UK. It wasn't until I got one that people started to make little comments like 'you'd better have good eyesight' etc. Why did nobody tell me all this before?! This litter is their last after being one of the longest in the breed since GWPs came to the UK. Apparently this litter was bred with temperament first and foremost as that wasn't always their priority.
> I've got a couple of mantrailing sessions booked with Ritter, and he has a fun swim session booked (he's never swam before) and I'm actually excited rather than feeling dread.


A bit like when I got Kato & told people who his dad was 🤣🤣🤣

Katos litter was bred with a 'softer' bitch trying to get a more sporty line (usually his dad sired pups for the police/prison service) but I think his dad's genes must be more dominant as the pups always look almost identical to him (bar the odd one) & have the same temperament.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marnie's first proper lesson with a competitive obedience training club today & she was great. We trained at a village hall but I opted to train in the grounds ouside where there were a few other people & their dogs at a distance but this didn't phase her at all.
Although it was her first time here she was instantly pushing me to play when getting out of the van & was instantly engaged ... exactly what I want & what I have been working on all this time.

We were working on heelwork foundations & she moves so well; has a lovely gait & really seems to have great body awareness so I don't want my clumsiness to muck this up 

Learnt some great exercises to get her in to position, how I move my body to accommodate her & how to get her to figure out how to move herself so she is correct. So difficult for me at times as I am so unco-ordinated!

Anyway, despite my poor performance Marnie was great & am so pleased with her. It was a really lovely group (both people & their dogs) & we had such a good laugh. Really enjoyed our day, just need to get lots of practise in for next month


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

I’m so glad it went well with the behaviourist @Leanne77. And must be nice to hear that they have seen worse dogs!
@Cleo38 sounds like Marnie is doing brilliantly - she is such a credit to you and all the work you put into her.

I went to the secure files yesterday armed with a ball launcher and a couple of chuckit balls and - it was amazing! Ava did her usual bogging off as soon as I let her off the lead which is to be expected as that is what she always does. BUT a couple of throws of the ball and me chasing after them and she came running over to join in. I did about 10 minutes and she was great. She does have a tendency to get the ball and then parade it a bit which is where having a second ball worked really well at getting her back to me. And when she did come back there was a bit of the ‘no take, only throw’ but I was able to ask her to sit and then I held her harness. I didn’t push it and ask for anything else this time.
Then we mooched around the field a bit to let her calm down slightly - she was then really good at checking in with me (well, checking in with the ball but I’ll take that).
Then she coped really well being home alone for 7 hours (from 5 till midnight) as I had to go to London for work. My sister came over and took her for a walk/gave her cuddles while I was out but she’s not used to being left at night and was very good!


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Dimwit said:


> I’m so glad it went well with the behaviourist @Leanne77. And must be nice to hear that they have seen worse dogs!
> @Cleo38 sounds like Marnie is doing brilliantly - she is such a credit to you and all the work you put into her.
> 
> I went to the secure files yesterday armed with a ball launcher and a couple of chuckit balls and - it was amazing! Ava did her usual bogging off as soon as I let her off the lead which is to be expected as that is what she always does. BUT a couple of throws of the ball and me chasing after them and she came running over to join in. I did about 10 minutes and she was great. She does have a tendency to get the ball and then parade it a bit which is where having a second ball worked really well at getting her back to me. And when she did come back there was a bit of the ‘no take, only throw’ but I was able to ask her to sit and then I held her harness. I didn’t push it and ask for anything else this time.
> ...


Fab! Glad you had a good time. We found this when Rufus was young. He was (still is!) obsessed with balls, so we used to use that as the way to keep him engaged with us, and like you had two balls so he would swap and come back to us. We did that for a while, and then were eventually able to not always have the ball and he would engage with us in different ways. I feel it just helped to teach him we wanted engagement, and that we were fun!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's such great news @Dimwit!! Glad to hear you had such a successful session


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie was such a good boy at training!
I was nervous at the start because he had a loud, embarrassing, "WELCOME FRIENDS!!!!" barking episode when the others started arriving 🤦‍♀️, and was then barking at a big, boisterous pup, but I actually think it was a sort of "calm the eff down!" bark (a touch of hypocrisy!) because that dog was bouncing so much it almost pulled the fence down...so I just walked him around the hut to sniff....he also met the spaniel in a more controlled way, and he was fine.

When we were doing our bit of scent work, he actually moved over RABBIT POO!!!!!!!!!!! and kept going to my phone case! He also sat without being asked (even on the wet grass!!!!!!) once he found the item 
I'm so happy, because at one point we couldn't even use the phone case because he was stealing it and trying to guard it 😁
We're now going to move onto more difficult items for him to find.

Totally made up for last weeks horror show!

We took him into a couple of pet shops after training, and got a compliment on how calm he was and how much he's improving 😀 ..........I mean, it was a bit of a cheat, because by that point he'd had two 50 minute walks, plus 50 minutes training, and he'd just been attention whoring around another pet shop, so was pretty tired, but still...I'll take it! 😉

Ooh, and this morning, although he did bark at a dog (FRIEND!!!) he was able to ignore a fair few, including a dog walking past us, while we did some scent stuff.
He also didn't meet many sociable dogs this morning, so I'm hoping it'll sink in that they don't all love him or want to play with him.
I'm very happy for him to stay sociable with dogs, it's a really nice change for me! But I don't want him turning a knob with it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's such great news @Gemmaa, glad you both had a great time at your class. Charlie sounds like a fab dog & lots of fun  

So nice when you can see that your hard work is starting to pay off


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ritter has been back to see his breeder today and it's interesting to compare their expectations to mine.
So for example I was told that I should put Ritter in a down and wait until he's really salivating before I allow him to eat. All I require him to do is stay on his bed in the kitchen until I'm ready to give it to him. I have just started to wait for him to look at me before I put the bowl down too. 
As I've stated numerous times, his recall is virtually none existent so today we were working on that. I got my wrist slapped because I wasn't making him sit and present. All I give a fig about at the moment is that he comes to me when called/whistled. I don't care what it looks like just as long as he does it. Once he's coming back, I can work on refining it but I did explain that out on a walk I dont want anything flashy, save that for formal situations.
It seems that they always ask the extreme of their dogs, there's absolutely no leeway and it makes me feel a little bit sad for them that they always have to be sensible, they dont have much fun and they're always under such pressure to be perfect.

I also got told that I'm doing the recall wrong, I shouldn't be using games with treats or playing tug because it means I'm not getting that sit and present behaviour. The way she did it was to get a toy, recall Ritter, get him to sit and present then she literally allowed him to briefly put his mouth over it before taking it away. That was his reward. Somehow, if exciting games with treats and toys isn't reward enough for engaging with me, I dont think a brief hold of a toy is going to cut it 🤣.

Tbh, going up there to see them is pointless as they're not helping me with what I'm struggling with. So anyway, even in their courtyard he wouldn't recall at all and when they tried to tell him off, they experienced exactly what I do - the running around and barking. I'm glad he's shown a few more true colours to them today so hopefully they'll see it's not just me being incapable, that he is a difficult dog. He even started barking at Peter when he shouted at him, and Peter is not a man to be messed with!

They did observe that he was a very silly, immature dog and still very puppy like in his behaviours.

I don't know if I'm ever going to crack the recall because I cant find anything that beats the outside world, even seemingly boring environments he finds far too stimulating.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think you’re absolutely right to give up on the breeder’s training methods. They’re old-fashioned and illogical. It sounds as if, if their dogs are learning anything then it’s in spite of their methods, not because of them.

How does telling a dog off encourage him to come back to you? How does rewarding a sit and present improve a recall?

Your gut instincts are right.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Sounds like the breeder has different priorities. I'm with you - If I ask for a recall I want the reward to be a super fun game with me, not another cue, and then a boring reward. That in no way is going to get you the behaviour you want of a fast and enthusiastic recall. You obviously are on different wavelengths and I don't think there's much you can gain from them.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Linda Weasel said:


> I think you’re absolutely right to give up on the breeder’s training methods. They’re old-fashioned and illogical. It sounds as if, if their dogs are learning anything then it’s in spite of their methods, not because of them.
> 
> How does telling a dog off encourage him to come back to you? How does rewarding a sit and present improve a recall?
> 
> Your gut instincts are right.


Just to clarify, they weren't telling him off for not recalling. He was doing a couple of other things which he shouldn't have been doing so he got told off for that.

Yeah, there's no way he's going to come back to me if I ask him to do a formal recall and give him virtually nothing in return! He needs a quick, high value, sustained reward otherwise he's just going to disappear again if he doesn't get rewarded quick enough. Yes, he needs to learn impulse control and he needs to control his frustration but I've learned enough to know I need to pick my battles.

We also learned that the ecollar had no effect on his recall. She tried it in the courtyard and although he clearly felt it, it didnt stop him ignoring the whistle. As Cleo38 said, it was no doubt used incorrectly as I just dont think he understood what it meant or why he was feeling it. He just didn't seem to link the sensation to the act of not coming to me.
She was savvy enough to realise that if we gave him the run of the fields and he ignored me, and she had to turn it right up, that he could potentially just run off in pain and fear rather than coming back to me.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Hmm. Personally I don't think the breeder sounds like they do the kind of training I'd be on board with. I want my dog to recall to me and engage with me because they want to, because its fun, because they choose to be with me. Not because they have to or because they will get punished otherwise. 

Ritter sounds like a very exuberant teenager! Honestly Rufus was a tearaway as well, but once he his 18 months ish he calmed down a lot of focused much more.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> We also learned that the ecollar had no effect on his recall. She tried it in the courtyard and although he clearly felt it, it didnt stop him ignoring the whistle. As Cleo38 said, it was no doubt used incorrectly as I just dont think he understood what it meant or why he was feeling it. He just didn't seem to link the sensation to the act of not coming to me.


That's definitely NOT an effective way to use an e-collar for recall. 

If I were to use an ecollar, I'd have the dog wear it for a long time first without doing a thing with it. Then you spend a long time teaching the dog how to turn the collar off, how to respond to the correction, and of course teaching the behavior you're going to correct. Completely unfair to correct a dog for a behavior they're not proficient in yet


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> That's definitely NOT an effective way to use an e-collar for recall.
> 
> If I were to use an ecollar, I'd have the dog wear it for a long time first without doing a thing with it. Then you spend a long time teaching the dog how to turn the collar off, how to respond to the correction, and of course teaching the behavior you're going to correct. Completely unfair to correct a dog for a behavior they're not proficient in yet


Exactly, I spent weeks training with Kato so he completely understood. Several exercises multiple times a day. Every time he was rewarded heavily with a combination of food, 
a toy, praise from me. 

We've had 3 potential chasing incidents this week with deer shooting out (one so close it nearly hit him!) & although 2 he initially went to chase as soon as I called him (+ low level ecollar stim), he immediately turned & ran back to me. 

I don't understand why people just put an ecollar in & expect the dog to understand.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thankfully it was only used low (I would've known if it was even slightly high because he's very mardy so would've yelped), he just kept wanting to scratch it with a back leg, but I won't be using it again. I'll stick to my usual methods and hope he gets better with practice and age.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> Thankfully it was only used low (I would've known if it was even slightly high because he's very mardy so would've yelped), he just kept wanting to scratch it with a back leg, but I won't be using it again. I'll stick to my usual methods and hope he gets better with practice and age.


There's nothing wrong with using an e-collar, and I do think prey drive is one of the areas it can be good for, but I'd work with someone who is more effective and knows better what they're doing.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

OMG, Ava was utterly possessed at gundog training today. We didn't make it last week as I was too busy with work so I don't know if that was part of it.
We were supposed to be doing loose lead walking and she was more like a prancing bull! She kept randomly pouncing and then digging holes in the field  
She did settle a bit when we started doing the retrieve work and even did a brilliant memory retrieve when, before I could send her after the dummy, we had to stop and wait for one of our classmates to catch his pointer who was doing a victory lap of the field.
She even did really well in the steadiness exercise and managed to stay on her placeboard while I threw the dummy (she was shaking so much she was practically vibrating though) so I was very proud of her as she finds that VERY hard.
Apart from being utterly demonic she did actually manage some nice work, and out of the four pointers in the class the was NOT one of the three who all tried to/managed to get loose and cause chaos!

We have our first mantrailing session on Sunday, so wish us (well, me) luck!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I think something is in the air. Penny has been possessed the last couple of days. Maybe the Christmas cheer is getting to her? 
Something outside was really pissing her off last night and she would just. not. settle! She even woke me up low growling/rumbling at about 2am (at least she knows she's not allowed to bark). Never did figure out what she was so adamant about. She wasn't obsessed with any particular scents this morning which is how I know we've had night visitors.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Good luck with the mantrailing @Dimwit I'm sure you'll be hooked. Ritter has another session tomorrow, his 7th so we're still pretty new. It's amazing to see how they work it out. I'll try and post a video of Ritter doing scent discrimination between people.

He had his first fun swim session earlier. He was a bit apprehensive at first but was pretty settled and taking food rewards. He lost it when she got a toy for him to retrieve, he just went sky high. So she removed the toy but then he started fixating on the fixtures in the pool and fighting her trying to get at them. He was barking and squealing and just being a total moron. Then at the end if the session he had a stress shit on the floor inside. At least he didn't do it in the water 🤣. He was a total embarrassment tbh.

However, he's totally shattered so I'm hoping for a quiet night.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I can't seem to post any videos or photos at all so for those on Instagram, here's the video of Ritter doing scent discrimination.

The third person is the one who has dropped the scent article. He totally ignores the first person as he's already worked out on the previous run with only 2 mispers that they aren't correct. He goes to the second misper as that was correct on the previous run, instantly realises they dont match the scent article this time, so moves on to the third person.









Leanne Warren on Instagram: "Back at mantrailing tonight. The object of this was scent discrimination, so the dog had to work out which of the 3 mispers matched the scent article. He totally dismissed the first, realised the second person wasnt correct so moved on to the third, which was correct. It's only his 6th session and first scent discrimination but this exercise shows he understands the aim of the game. #germanwirehairedpointer #gwp #deutschdrahthaar #gwp_of_the_day #gwpoftheday #huntingdog #hpr #gundog #puppy #puppiesofinstagram #mantrailing #mantrailinguk"


Leanne Warren shared a post on Instagram: "Back at mantrailing tonight. The object of this was scent discrimination, so the dog had to work out which of the 3 mispers matched the scent article. He totally dismissed the first, realised the second person wasnt correct so moved on to the third...




www.instagram.com


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

@Leanne77 that’s awesome!
I hope Ava enjoys it. I am a bit nervous because she’s so gobby and also strong so I suspect I might end up making a fool of myself. But I loved mantrailing with Sprocket and it will be nice to have something else to do with Ava


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Dimwit said:


> @Leanne77 that’s awesome!
> I hope Ava enjoys it. I am a bit nervous because she’s so gobby and also strong so I suspect I might end up making a fool of myself. But I loved mantrailing with Sprocket and it will be nice to have something else to do with Ava


Ritter is gobby and strong! He really struggles on the starts because he just wants to get on with it so I just walk him round until he calms down then I allow him to sniff the scent item. But then he's bunny hopping because I'm too slow and he wants to go at 100mph. Usually his first trail is awful as he's too excited then he settles into it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Someone come get this dog... And she's supposedly old enough to not be this much of a pest! 









I’m not sufficiently caffeinated for this….







youtube.com


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I seem to have created a problem (sort of). Bronte's recall is good, but he has developed a new habit of running AWAY from me at speed, turning round (no recall cue, purely his choice), and the running TOWARDS me at speed to get a reward. This isn't all the time, just when he wants a reward I think. The first couple of times he started legging it I recalled him, but then I took him down our own fields and just watched what he would do when he ran, and after about 30m or so he turns and zooms back. And I of course reward because I really want his recall to be good. 
He really loves his ball, so I have this on me, and have to tell him to 'go' and stop watching me, so he's built this behaviour of running away then coming back (not always as above, sometimes he does a big circle or just runs around but he always comes back looking for his ball). I HATE that obsessive behaviour of staring at a ball when we're on a walk. Though tbf when we are on a proper walk he's less interested in the toy as there's other interesting stuff. But this still causes problems as last time we were at the woods he did it twice, one right after the other. First time was fine, I saw him run turn and come back, but the second he ran and went round a bend, barked at something, then ran straight back (I never did see what it was he barked at). So I need to break this habit! I really don't want him running and barking at people at speed!


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> @Dimwit know that you are not alone!
> I took Ritter to his breeder yesterday and we went in their barn as it was secure to let him off and there _should_ have been nothing much to interest him. Yeah, righto! He was running round like a loon, like it was the most exciting place on Earth. So we let him get it out of his system before trying any training. She wanted to see his obedience stuff which she was impressed with, she liked the fact he wasnt afraid to explore, jump on things, stick his head in nooks and crannies etc. Then we stood chatting for quite a while and he chilled out, albeit with quite a bit of whinging. Then we attempted a sit stay and recall, he decided he was going to run around like a loon again and not recall. So, if he wont recall in a fairly boring barn, he's never going to do it out on a walk.
> We spoke about letting him off a lead and the problems I have with getting him engaged etc. She's fairly relaxed about dogs bogging off, it doesn't phase her so she was quite prepared to let him loose on their land to see what he'd do. I said absolutely not.
> We did actually discuss ecollars. I was always dead against them, always thought I'd rather keep my dog on a long line than use that tool. However, after having to keep a dog on a long line, you realise how annoying and impractical they are, plus how dangerous they can be when wrapped around you or the dog and the dog is moving at speed. Plus for high energy dogs, they dont fulfill their need to actually fully stretch their legs.
> So, it's an option that's there for me to try when I visit again whilst I build my confidence, work on engagement and control and attempt to achieve what we need to so that he gets the exercise he needs whilst remaining safe.


If you do decide to go down this route, I'd be more than willing to record whole conditioning sessions with one of mine to show you how I go about low stim conditioning. 
It's generally a good two or three weeks of conditioning before moving to the next phase. Each dog is slightly different and needs a tailored response but to a point, the longer you hang around in the conditioning phase, the more certain you can be that the dog truly understands the stim. 
No idea if this is of help, but the offer is there if you need it.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Ava and I had an awesome time at mantrailing today 😀
She was absolutely brilliant and the instructor very quickly moved her on to article searches at a fairly long distance to slow her down and get her thinking.
She absolutely loved it - and I didn’t fall over 🤣
Can’t wait to go again!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not quite sure where the old Ritter has gone, but there seems to be a new one emerging! I've probably jinxed things now though.
These past 3 days he's been a pretty good lad. We've been doing lead walks only to work on lead manners and to just get him a bit more desensitised to every day things. He's had a look and a whinge at dogs that have passed us but there's been no standing on back legs squealing and barking. He's ignored people, been more relaxed around traffic and has done alot more sniffing rather than being over involved with his surroundings.
Today we went back to general obedience class, our first class in a few weeks. He was pretty good and did everything asked of him. Probably the biggest thing I noticed is that he didnt over react to things I would've expected him to. The trainers young grandaughter was there running around (kids are prone to make lots of noise and move erratically, things which trigger him), there was a dog playing with a squeaky toy and equipment being moved around. Yes he was interested, yes he was whinging and yes, he struggled to maintain focus on me but there was none of his screaming banshee act and he responded when I called him and was happy to move away. A few weeks ago that would've been too much for him and he would've had a meltdown.
The trainer even commented he was much calmer so fingers crossed we're getting somewhere.
In the evenings he's been nice and settled too. I've allowed him to come up on the sofa with me which has made a difference. Our house is cold and draughty so it's not surprising he'd rather be up off the floor gaining warmth next to me.
I feel like I've not had to peck his head so much, or be quite so strict and that we're actually beginning to have a bit of an understanding.

I'll probably be back telling my old story in a few days!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Ava and I had an awesome time at mantrailing today 😀
> She was absolutely brilliant and the instructor very quickly moved her on to article searches at a fairly long distance to slow her down and get her thinking.
> She absolutely loved it - and I didn’t fall over 🤣
> Can’t wait to go again!


That's great, did you have your session in the arboretum? It's great for the intro. Your post made ne realise I needed to fet booked on another session now my back is better so are booked on the 31st Dec session. We'll have to sort a date out where we can both book on a session, it would be great to meet up again


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> That's great, did you have your session in the arboretum? It's great for the intro. Your post made ne realise I needed to fet booked on another session now my back is better so are booked on the 31st Dec session. We'll have to sort a date out where we can both book on a session, it would be great to meet up again


Yes we did - it is such a good venue. It would be great to meet up sometime and you can laugh at me being pulled around by Ava!
We are booked in again on the 22nd January - I very nearly booked over Christmas but then I remembered that Ava is being spayed on 20th December…


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Yes we did - it is such a good venue. It would be great to meet up sometime and you can laugh at me being pulled around by Ava!
> We are booked in again on the 22nd January - I very nearly booked over Christmas but then I remembered that Ava is being spayed on 20th December…


Hahahaha! You should have seen me last time. We were in Shouldham Warren forest & my back was pretty bad so I asked for trails that would be slightly easier for me ...... they were not easy & Archer was full steam ahead as usual!

There was another poor woman with a bad back & we got no sympathy at all but just laughed at as we hobbled along 

Hope the spay goes well. Are you getting keyhole or traditional? Am waiting for after Marnie's next season to think of spaying her. Don't fancy going through a season again but tbh it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Although Kato was pathetic


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahaha! You should have seen me last time. We were in Shouldham Warren forest & my back was pretty bad so I asked for trails that would be slightly easier for me ...... they were not easy & Archer was full steam ahead as usual!
> 
> There was another poor woman with a bad back & we got no sympathy at all but just laughed at as we hobbled along
> 
> Hope the spay goes well. Are you getting keyhole or traditional? Am waiting for after Marnie's next season to think of spaying her. Don't fancy going through a season again but tbh it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Although Kato was pathetic


There were two of us on Sunday who were worried that our dogs would pull us over so at least I had someone to sympathise with.
She’s going for a traditional spay as my vets don’t do keyhole and I would rather take her to someone I trust. 
I was considering waiting but she was so miserable during her season and the vets are happy that she has finished growing so I’m going for it - it is such s difficult decision though


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> There were two of us on Sunday who were worried that our dogs would pull us over so at least I had someone to sympathise with.
> She’s going for a traditional spay as my vets don’t do keyhole and I would rather take her to someone I trust.
> I was considering waiting but she was so miserable during her season and the vets are happy that she has finished growing so I’m going for it - it is such s difficult decision though


Oh definitely & I really think it depends on the dog. I don't think Marnie will be a big GSD but she still looks & acts immature so am leaving it for a while as am sure she has more growing to do. She was also fine during her season (although I do realise the next one could be different).

Archer was almost completely unaffected by it but as usual it was Kato who made the big drama; not eating, howling, showing off ...typical man!!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Amazing tracking training day yesterday with Marnie at my club. Absolutely freezing & a heavy frost on the ground but that was great for training. Such a beautiful day though, no wind so was lovely to be out. I was well wrapped in my thermals & had my muck boots on so was toasty warm. My van is insulated as well the dogs kept warm aswell ... although am still thinking of getting Marnie an Equafleece mainly as she will look so gorgeous in one 

Anyway, she did great. Tracked with no problems on the icy ground & with a group of people following us as we tracked. So pleased that this wasn't a distraction as we always track on our own usually. Last time we were there there was one person but a small group can be quite unsettling for some dogs.

At the end of the day, just as I had just finished laying my last track someone shouted at me to look up, & there hovering only a couple of meters above my head was a beautiful red kite. We all watched as s/he flew above us, then realised the food I had put on my track was quite appealing as it then swooped down to steal some pieces! Amazing to watch as it was so very close.

Usually we have a problem with crows stealing food/articles so we have to be on guard & run around like mad people trying to scare them away but everyone was in awe of the red kite. I wish I could share the video but it's on our private FB group. Really amazing, & we all stood there watching this magnificent bird, feeling so privileged to see it in action so close.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Sounds like a perfect day!
I love kites. We get a couple of pairs round us in the summer and they are massive! Such beautiful birds.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

First proper session with the behaviourist today and she was really pleased with his progress both on the settle mat and out on a walk. He's shown he knows what the mat is for as we moved it outside to the garden and he lay on it straight away, ignoring distractions.
Out on a walk there were quite a few canine distractions which he dealt with well. She's noted that although he does get frustrated easily, he recovers from it quickly and is able to refocus.
Next step is to take him somewhere quiet where he can have more freedom and to see how he interacts with me and his environment. Then we're just going to build it up from there.
Before the behaviourist arrived we'd been on an early walk where he had a good run round trailing his long line and he did everything I asked him to do so all in all a good day.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Some photos from his recent secure field session.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> Some photos from his recent secure field session.
> View attachment 580792
> View attachment 580793
> View attachment 580794
> ...


He looks happy.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Lovely pics !
He does look happy


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

It's been so cold here that I had to bundle Marnie in to Toby's old Equafleece whilst we wait for hers to be delivered. She wasn't to impressed with it initially but as we were out tracking & she had to wait her turn in the van she definitely needed something to keep her warm.

Her ears are still completely ridiculous


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

How's everyone been doing? 
I took Bronte to the vets the other day as I needed to pick up Nooka's prescription, so thought I would go and do a bit of desensitising. Had a walk first then took him in and he was fine. They had some workmen in but he was not bothered at all by the noise or comings and goings, so we've at least had one good experience there. I didn't want to push anything so I just chatted with the receptionist and nurse for a few mins and he sat nice and calmly with me feeding him sausage. We went to pets at home afterwards and he behaved well, no stealing toys or treats, and he didn't pee either which I thought was good considering there were at least 2 piddle spots in the shop with those yellow hazard signs over them!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Feeling very deflated here tbh. I'm seeing Ritters siblings out doing what they were bred to do, seeing friends pups, younger than Ritter, out on the moors working, yet he is stuck on a long line.

I feel like I can't get any real training done, can't work towards my goals, because he has no recall. I wanted to start working trials classes but no point when he can't be let off a lead. It's a real sticking point with me.

I know I shouldn't compare our progress with that of others but it's so hard when I'm seeing it every day. I just feel we are so very far behind and making very little progress.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Leanne77 said:


> Feeling very deflated here tbh. I'm seeing Ritters siblings out doing what they were bred to do, seeing friends pups, younger than Ritter, out on the moors working, yet he is stuck on a long line.
> 
> I feel like I can't get any real training done, can't work towards my goals, because he has no recall. I wanted to start working trials classes but no point when he can't be let off a lead. It's a real sticking point with me.
> 
> I know I shouldn't compare our progress with that of others but it's so hard when I'm seeing it every day. I just feel we are so very far behind and making very little progress.


I wonder if you are thinking too much about what you want him to do, rather than appreciating him for who he is? I know you got him with the intent of doing certain things, but dogs are just like people, all different. Perhaps once you let go of the expectations, it'll feel easier and you can bind with him better?

I don't mean this to sound patronising or anything, so im sorry if it does. But it helped me a lot with Rufus when I let go of all these expectations of what I thought having him would be like, and instead focused on who he is, his strengths, and what works best for him, if that makes sense?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> Feeling very deflated here tbh. I'm seeing Ritters siblings out doing what they were bred to do, seeing friends pups, younger than Ritter, out on the moors working, yet he is stuck on a long line.
> 
> I feel like I can't get any real training done, can't work towards my goals, because he has no recall. I wanted to start working trials classes but no point when he can't be let off a lead. It's a real sticking point with me.
> 
> I know I shouldn't compare our progress with that of others but it's so hard when I'm seeing it every day. I just feel we are so very far behind and making very little progress.


Is he enclosed in the trial classes ? I wonder if you just give it a go if safe. I think with Loki I’ve just had to accept he’a that dog that was sent to test me. His brothers and sisters also go off lead no problems. It can be upsetting.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Things are going well here with Marnie. We are off to our competitive obedience training class today. Although I probably won't compete in this, its a great opportunity to learn how to train formal heel work really well.

We've been doing alot of tracking in the frost lately which is going well, although laying tracks for all the dogs in such freezing conditions takes alot of motivation atm! 🥶

I have another private lesson with my IGP trainer next week to carry on with protection foundations which am really looking forward to. Marnie has great natural aggression but also really good ability to switch from different drives. It's so interesting watching her in action 

And I agree with @emla, you need to focus more on what Ritter can do @Leanne77, rather than what he can't. Enjoy your dog, otherwise you are missing out on so much


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> Is he enclosed in the trial classes ? I wonder if you just give it a go if safe. I think with Loki I’ve just had to accept he’a that dog that was sent to test me. His brothers and sisters also go off lead no problems. It can be upsetting.


No, it's in a paddock on a farm so lots of crop fields he could access easily, plus a train line and fast A road very nearby.

I know everybody is right, should focus on the dog in front of me. Got up not feeling very well today so think I was feeling especially down yesterday.

Might come off FB for a while tbh so I don't see everybody else's dogs doing stuff.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Leanne77 said:


> No, it's in a paddock on a farm so lots of crop fields he could access easily, plus a train line and fast A road very nearby.
> 
> I know everybody is right, should focus on the dog in front of me. Got up not feeling very well today so think I was feeling especially down yesterday.
> 
> Might come off FB for a while tbh so I don't see everybody else's dogs doing stuff.


Not a good idea then. Definitely take a break. I’ve had a bad week with Loki two dogs rushed at him last Friday now I feel we are back to square one with reactivity. We’ve been in secure fields most of the week because it’s been hard to deal with in the ice.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

@Leanne77 . Don’t get downhearted, I’m sure everybody’s been there with at least one dog, who seems slower, dimmer, older, more awkward than all the others.

I think the trick is to know that you’ll both get there eventually. Sometimes it just is harder and takes longer than you expected. Everything you’re putting in now will come out, there just no guessing when.

Nobody else is dealing with your dog, so how can there be a comparison?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie is 11 months now, & he's actually started napping on my lap! Quite incredible! He is SO friendly with strangers, and much less bothered about me...so I assume he's being nice because he's cold 

Training finished for Christmas a couple of weeks ago, he basically skipped around the whole lesson, but our trainer said "he really is the happiest dog", so I'll take naughty & happy!

He was getting spooked by a lot last week, mostly snowmen...and they are absolutely everywhere at the moment! Which has been a lot of fun at 6am when he's been barking his head off, down quiet residential roads!
We have managed to get him over it thankfully!
He got over excited in the snow yesterday, grabbed my thumb...somehow didn't rip my glove, but managed to make my thumb bleed...I think my OH managed to get a photo of the exact moment I swore at him 😂

Oh, and last week a horse rider decided to canter at us, just before the end of the really muddy, slippery track, with no warning, and no room, even though he'd had loads of opportunities before then....scared the life out of Charlie, and he barked and growled...so that was disappointing! But hopefully we won't meet too many riders like that guy!

He's picking rubbish up again, which is very, very boring, but it's a bit easier to get him to drop it.
He tried to steal a fluffy rug in an expensive garden centre, which was mildly terrifying 😂 but we got it off him and didn't have to buy it 🤦‍♀️
Yesterday he was allowed to rip up lots of paper, and he didn't eat any of it, and there was no attempt to guard anything of it, so yay!
I'm reading Simone Muellers new book (Don't eat that!), which I'm hoping will help with his Womble habits.
I think, like everything else, it's just going to take a bit of time with him.

His recall is appalling, he appears to be deaf when I call him, so I think he'll be doing some recall workshops next year.
A couple of weeks back, I let the long line go so that he could run around with another dog, and I only got the little  back because the other dogs owner called him, and he bloody went to him!!! 😲
His advice was "give him a treat every time you call him".....really? 😂 I had a bag full of dehydrated lung, and other disgusting things, and he recalled to a stranger for something naff.....and he even sat!!! 😂
There's an old couple who keep making comments about "poor frustrated Charlie" and "if he wasn't stuck on that lead all the time, he could run around".........makes me feel really guilty! But if Charlie would listen to me, he would be off the lead 😉
He's not frustrated, he's happiest sniffing around. He loves to greet dogs, but he gets overwhelmed with too much play, so it's not really an issue right now!

We're hoping to take him on some training walks with other dogs next month, if it doesn't interfere with his regular class. I want him to be less over the top with dogs, and not so distracted, which would help a lot with his recall.

He went into town to see some Christmas lights....









I'm interested to see how he'll cope with Christmas!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Gemmaa , I love your posts about Charlie. They always make me laugh! You might have the odd training challenge (dont we all!) but he sounds like so much fun.

Ignore other people, you know your dog & he sounds like he enjoys life so continue setting him up for success


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I get really hacked off at people who comment about leads and lines. I’m not restraining my dog, I’m keeping him safe. What’s wrong with that?

There’s one of those slightly arrogant men round here who never has his dog on a lead, and it trots along the pavement in front of him. Even along the main road which has quite steady traffic. And I’m sure he’s really proud to show off his dog training skills like this; except for last week when his dog saw somebody he knew on the other side of the road and shot across two lanes of traffic to get to the other side.

The dog was unscathed, more by luck than judgement . It could easily have been dead.

Has the guy learned anything from this? Nope, dog still offlead on the road.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Linda Weasel said:


> I get really hacked off at people who comment about leads and lines. I’m not restraining my dog, I’m keeping him safe. What’s wrong with that?
> 
> There’s one of those slightly arrogant men round here who never has his dog on a lead, and it trots along the pavement in front of him. Even along the main road which has quite steady traffic. And I’m sure he’s really proud to show off his dog training skills like this; except for last week when his dog saw somebody he knew on the other side of the road and shot across two lanes of traffic to get to the other side.
> 
> ...


Drives me nuts because probably 70% of dogs should be on lead as they have no recall. I got charged at by a dog yesterday whilst running luckily I had no dogs. The owner recalled him but didn’t leash him up despite him looking at me like lunch. Then I see them today off lead by a Road.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

So Ava was spayed today - I felt so guilty taking her to the vets but she decided that the nurse was her new best friend and went off with her without a backward glance.
I went to collect her and a different nurse bought her out - Ava’s new best friend who had apparently been giving her lots of cuddles. The ungrateful brat didn’t even want to leave the surgery!
She is a bit sleepy and stoned now but as soon as the drugs wear off the fun of keeping her quiet will begin…


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Dimwit said:


> So Ava was spayed today - I felt so guilty taking her to the vets but she decided that the nurse was her new best friend and went off with her without a backward glance.
> I went to collect her and a different nurse bought her out - Ava’s new best friend who had apparently been giving her lots of cuddles. The ungrateful brat didn’t even want to leave the surgery!
> She is a bit sleepy and stoned now but as soon as the drugs wear off the fun of keeping her quiet will begin…
> View attachment 581202


I hope she feels better soon.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Dimwit said:


> So Ava was spayed today - I felt so guilty taking her to the vets but she decided that the nurse was her new best friend and went off with her without a backward glance.
> I went to collect her and a different nurse bought her out - Ava’s new best friend who had apparently been giving her lots of cuddles. The ungrateful brat didn’t even want to leave the surgery!
> She is a bit sleepy and stoned now but as soon as the drugs wear off the fun of keeping her quiet will begin…


Aww feel better soon Ava! (I'm sure she'll be up and raring to go far too soon tbh!)

I have almost the opposite problem with Bronte in that he has gone really hand shy with people. Not me or my family but other people. Not everyone either, it seems quite random and it seems to be more inside as well. He's never been 100% with people, pretty neutral most of the time. He's not nervous or reactive, but just not hugely interested but could be slightly unsure where he'd go a bit silly - actually the same as he does when people go to touch him now, wiggly and evasive, except now it's much worse. 
My brother had his shanty band party last night and Bronte was really quite overwhelmed with everyone and didn't want to be touched by them, though would sit and lie with me taking treats in the same room while they were noisy and didn't bat an eyelid - it just seems to be touch. 
Took him to training tonight and he was fine with one of my training helper friends but not the other who he has known for exactly the same amount of time. He will listen and train with her absolutely fine, take treats etc, but just doesn't want to be touched. I'm not sure if it's just his head but we didn't really test out the rest of his body. I can touch him all over while they feed him and talk to him, but them touch him? Nope. He will do nose touch so we did that to start desensitisation. And I did touching while she fed him.
Now this isn't a massive issue I suppose except at the vets where, in the next year, he will need to be neutered due to a retained testicle and I really don't want him getting stressed out. 
I looked at the vet records and he was absolutely fine in May when he had to have blood taken, then he had an eye ulcer in July where he was a bit head shy but his eye was really sore. Then 2 weeks later he had a lump under his chin and he let her feel that fine. Then end of November he fell in the woods and when I took him to the vets he was really evasive and didn't want to be touched by her at all. So somewhere in between he's had a weird mental blip where he has decided he doesn't want to be touched by strangers!
I can do rough touching round his head when playing, wave things around his head and he doesn't bat an eyelid, so it's not pain or general hand-shyness from being beaten by me (JOKE). 
Anyone have any specific ideas on how we can overcome this? At least enough for him to be handle-able for the vets and for him not to have a breakdown there.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you looked at Chirag Patel's bucket game @Sarah H ? I know alot of people (including myself) who have had success with the this as it gives the dog a certain amount of control over the situation.








The Bucket Game


The Bucket Game – The Game of Choice This fun and easy animal training game is designed to empower the learners. By creating an environment where our animals have choice and can communicate their...



www.allpetseducationandtraining.com.au


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Have you looked at Chirag Patel's bucket game @Sarah H ? I know alot of people (including myself) who have had success with the this as it gives the dog a certain amount of control over the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh yes I hadn't thought about that! Good idea. Think I need to tackle it from a few different angles.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Sarah H Is there anything to indicate any pain issues at all? Do you think it might be worth having him looked at by a physio? Especially as this started after a fall.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> @Sarah H Is there anything to indicate any pain issues at all? Do you think it might be worth having him looked at by a physio? Especially as this started after a fall.


I did think about this but honestly I've not seen anything to indicate pain or discomfort (and I've specifically looked for it especially after his parkour fail). 
Still if I am not seeing progress I will definitely look at someone to give him a going over in case there is something I'm not seeing. He's always had good movement so I hope I'd notice if something was off, but of course dogs hide pain well.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Wonder if it's because when he has sore things like eye ulcer and bruising after fall you take him to a stranger and they poke and prod and hurt him more. 
Have also stuck a needle in him.
He wouldn't understand the reason was to help would he.
How you would overcome it I don't know as he is obviously a sensitive soul and the vets always do things they don't like when they are ill or hurting.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It may also be a fear phase and this is how it's manifesting. How old Bronte now?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> I did think about this but honestly I've not seen anything to indicate pain or discomfort (and I've specifically looked for it especially after his parkour fail).
> Still if I am not seeing progress I will definitely look at someone to give him a going over in case there is something I'm not seeing. He's always had good movement so I hope I'd notice if something was off, but of course dogs hide pain well.


 With all my dogs it's been behavioural changes that have indicated to me something isn't right. So very difficult when signs are subtle & I think super motivated dogs will still just carry on as normal. I've said that Archer would still be running & jumping even with a broken leg!

Anyway, hopefully it's something you can resolve. I found the bucket game worked well with Archer when drying him off with the blaster.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> Wonder if it's because when he has sore things like eye ulcer and bruising after fall you take him to a stranger and they poke and prod and hurt him more.
> Have also stuck a needle in him.
> He wouldn't understand the reason was to help would he.
> How you would overcome it I don't know as he is obviously a sensitive soul and the vets always do things they don't like when they are ill or hurting.


This was my initial reaction to his behaviour at the vet. He'd had a tumble, was a bit bruised, remembered being worried before when they were looking at his sore eye etc etc. That explains the vet practice environment but it doesn't explain his reaction to other people too.


Cleo38 said:


> With all my dogs it's been behavioural changes that have indicated to me something isn't right. So very difficult when signs are subtle & I think super motivated dogs will still just carry on as normal. I've said that Archer would still be running & jumping even with a broken leg!
> 
> Anyway, hopefully it's something you can resolve. I found the bucket game worked well with Archer when drying him off with the blaster.


I agree totally agree re: behaviour changes and pain. 
Thing is I hadn't seen any behaviour change until that vet appt. And there has been no other change either. We don't meet loads of people and I don't have loads of visitors, so I've no idea what could have caused this or when the change happened. He's fairly unbothered by people in general, unless he knows and likes them in which case he is friendly (or super excited when it comes to our agility instructor!)


O2.0 said:


> It may also be a fear phase and this is how it's manifesting. How old Bronte now?


He's not even 18 months old yet. Still a baby in his head. My gut is saying it's a fear phase but there's that niggle in my mind that I don't want it to be more. 
When I first had him I remember he was freaked out by some bags of manure at the side of the road when we were walking past them (fine after having a bark and a sniff). He also barked at a wooden bench in the woods the first time we went. He's always been a bit submissive with people he doesn't know, but wanting to make friends usually. But now he's older he's not so bothered about actually interacting. He definitely has a history of this evasive slightly silly flirty behaviour when unsure. But now instead of going wiggly like he did when he was younger he's just ducking and diving and keeping away. There is no sign of aggression thankfully, he just avoids them. I remember at the vets we were both knelt on the floor and he was weaving about and giving her submissive appeasement behaviours like kissing her, but just didn't want her to touch him, especially with the killer stethoscope!


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

Apart from the behaviour at the vets , which is understandable, I wonder if he has reached the age of having a strong bond with you and not wanting attention from other people apart from his chosen friends.
Most of my GSDs were like this, kind of aloof except with family or good friends.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

OMG, for the first time ever ......Marnie is QUIET this evening!!!!

I can't believe it, she always has something to say but tonight she's asleep & all barked out after our training afternoon.

We had a private session with my IGP trainer & she was barking ALOT today as we were working on her activating the helper & then a nice, calm grip when she 'won' the sleeve.

She did so well, am so pleased with her progress. We had a great session & she's done so well in only a few lessons.

But all the excitement has worn her out & she is all barked out ..... IT'S GREAT!!! 🤐🤭


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Somebody's carelessness and unfortunate misplacement of equipment has just revolutionised my lead walks with Ritter I think.
A couple of days ago I found a double ended Halti lead which I used for the first time tonight, in conjunction with Ritter's new headcollar.
Omg! It was like wearing slippers on my hands! It was so soft and comfortable, a huge improvement on all his others cutting into my fingers.
Then I decided to use the middle ring to lengthen the lead and pop it across my body, leaving my hands free. This means I can much more easily use the clicker and dispense treats for LLW and general good behaviour.
He also seemed to walk more calmly and without so much pulling with it across my body. I'm assuming because I'm not transferring any of my feelings down the lead and because my immovable body gives a much more distinct check/correction if he pulls.
It was much more pleasurable walking him this way, its definitely the way forward I think!


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I’ve got a leather ‘police’ type lead with trigger hooks at both ends and several fixed rings. I’m not sure what they’re all for, but I can make a loop across my body with it and, like @Leanne77 , find it so nice to be able to walk with my hands free. They’re brilliant and so many ways to use.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> OMG, for the first time ever ......Marnie is QUIET this evening!!!!
> 
> I can't believe it, she always has something to say but tonight she's asleep & all barked out after our training afternoon.
> 
> ...


Aww, bless her! She looks really happy!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> Aww, bless her! She looks really happy!


Her favourite thing is barking so this was such great fun for her!!! 

(And I enjoyed a quiet evening for once  )

Hope everyone & their dogs has a great Christmas 🎅🎁🎈🎊🎄


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Her favourite thing is barking so this was such great fun for her!!!
> 
> (And I enjoyed a quiet evening for once  )
> 
> Hope everyone & their dogs has a great Christmas 🎅🎁🎈🎊🎄


You can definitely see that she's in her element!

Have a fab Christmas 🌟


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Her favourite thing is barking so this was such great fun for her!!!


That's Ava's favourite thing too  

She is recovering really well from her spay (maybe a little TOO well) - even though she had a conventional spay the incision is really small which definitely helps. I am having trouble persuading her to keep all 4 feet on the floor though!
I am also very glad I invested in a decent airbed as I am sleeping downstairs in the living room with her because she usually sleeps in my bed.

Hope all of you and your dogs have a lovely Christmas! 🎄


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Today has been the first time I've seen Ritter unsure of anybody. Usually he's all over anybody he meets, except his breeders because he knows better. My eldest nephew (Owen) came for Christmas dinner as he always does and came into the garden with my nephew who lives with us (Roman). Ritter was very wary but chose to ignore Owen to greet Roman. He went back to Owen to check him out so I said to just ignore him. So what he chose to do instead was intentionally scare Ritter by jumping at him. 
So then Ritter was even more wary, even growling at him and had that dangerous stillness. Why do people find it so hard to simply ignore a dog when you tell them? Owen kept sticking his hand out and standing looking at Ritter instead of just doing as I asked. Fortunately they didn't have to mix for very long.
Ritter didn't like my Dad either when he visited a while ago but we generally don't have visitors and if we do, they're dog savvy female friends. Neither my Dad or Owen have very good body language tbh and do all the wrong things so I'm not surprised Ritter didn't take to either of them.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Today has been the first time I've seen Ritter unsure of anybody. Usually he's all over anybody he meets, except his breeders because he knows better. My eldest nephew (Owen) came for Christmas dinner as he always does and came into the garden with my nephew who lives with us (Roman). Ritter was very wary but chose to ignore Owen to greet Roman. He went back to Owen to check him out so I said to just ignore him. So what he chose to do instead was intentionally scare Ritter by jumping at him.
> So then Ritter was even more wary, even growling at him and had that dangerous stillness. Why do people find it so hard to simply ignore a dog when you tell them? Owen kept sticking his hand out and standing looking at Ritter instead of just doing as I asked. Fortunately they didn't have to mix for very long.
> Ritter didn't like my Dad either when he visited a while ago but we generally don't have visitors and if we do, they're dog savvy female friends. Neither my Dad or Owen have very good body language tbh and do all the wrong things so I'm not surprised Ritter didn't take to either of them.


Why do people have this urge to do silly things? It wouldn't have been funny if he'd been bitten. 

I didn't let Bronte meet my frail 90 year old Grandmother today. He got to smell her stuff, saw her through the dog gate, and I did some desensitising to the novelty of her (she had her walker too so that was an odd object, though he wasn't bothered). Last time she was here he was younger and was a bit OTT and very interested in her, so I thought we'd just avoid any interaction and he could just be around her without actually meeting.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ritter only met my nephew very briefly as most of the time he was here we were eating and I'd put Ritter in the car so he could sleep in peace (he'd been a good walk and was tired) and we could eat in peace.
I was worried because I thought he'd be jumping all over him being a thug but as it happened he didn't want to go anywhere near him.
Our walk this morning was quite frustrating too because there were too many people around, and now there are fireworks going off so despite my best efforts to keep it a calm day, it's not quite worked out that way. 
Thankfully it's nearly over and only one day a year!


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Well, it’s over for another year.

Hope everybody had as good a day as they were expecting, or better, and hope nobody had a bad day.

I had a better day than I expected.Christmas dinner with my younger sister and BIL. She’s so lovely and giving and I don’t know why I don’t make an effort to see more of her.

Except maybe she likes to organise everybody, and know what they’re doing, and I know it’s only out of love and concern ; But I’ve lived on my own and fended for myself for 30 odd years so I admit to getting wound up when she tries to organise me. I can organise myself, thanks. I know she means well but I resent it, then I feel mean.

I actually get really stressed by it, and have distanced myself for that reason. Now I don’t know how or wether to try to alter the status quo.

I guess this time of year brings these thoughts to the forefront….

edit. Think I put this in the wrong thread. If a mod could move it to a Christmas thread I’d appreciate it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

A great day with Marnie, some tracking this morning. I've started putting articles on the track now (in IGP the dog has to indicate an article by doing a down & staring at it, & it should be between their front paws). She was spot on, I was so pleased. We also had a training session over the local park where other dogs were running about ... not interested at all.

She was VERY interested in some young blokes playing football so we moved nearer & did some focus work, again she was great & we did some basic position exercises aswell.

Apart from her initial dog 'aggression' (which I don't think was ever a serious issue), I've not really had many 'problems' with Marnie but had to work on her not snapping at the boys when they came up in the sofa or wanted a cuddle (again on the sofa). We'd worked on this previously & it had gotten better but after a few days in kennels (as I was at my sister's for Christmas) & now we are back to this being something that needs sorting again!

She's so horrible to them in these instances. A minute ago she just snapped at poor Kato as he wanted a cuddle with me & she decided he wasn't allowed  ..... so she's on the floor this afternoon & not allowed to cuddle up with the rest of us. She's raging


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I need to get cracking on with Ritter's tracking so we can progress through the UKTDA stuff, it's just finding somebody to do it with who has access to land.

I feel like Ritter and I have turned a corner and I no longer tell myself each day that he's got to go back. I think we're starting to understand each other and become a team. I've learned to take my cues from him and let him tell me when he's ready to learn. There's no point trying to get him to listen when his head is in the shed so on those occasions I just manage him and try to bring him back down to a calmer level.

We've been doing quite a bit of LLW practice and he's actually starting to walk quite nicely. I don't care if he's not at heel, all I ask is that he's not pulling, not barking or whining and not bunny hopping with his front feet. If he does, we turn the opposite direction until he's walking calmly again. Sometimes he cant do that because there's too much going on or it's a new place so I dont make him do it. I've found that when he's ready, he'll offer me the behaviour and that's when we can make a start.

Today he's been amazing, I've been quite gobsmacked by him and I actually took Ritter out and left Ritter the Shitter behind.
We went to the little nature reserve we use as a quiet place. He spent the whole time engaged with me, pushing me to play and happy to play food games - food games were something he was never that interested in. I decided to work on his emergency down with a refs whistle. He's only had 2 very short sessions on this, one with me and one with his breeder. He's literally heard that whistle a dozen times at the most. I got him moving around then blew it, fully expecting to give verbal and hand cues but to my amazement he dropped to the floor on the whistle alone! Need to build the 3 D's with that now.

Then we did our usual little circular walk and apart from lunging ahead a couple of times, he walked like a civilised dog. I can tell he's starting to relax on walks because his sniffing is increasing.

Then there has been a couple of massive wins, massive for us anyway. I managed to walk him past a kid with a football by giving him his toy to play with, and in the secure field, he totally ignored the small dogs running and yapping along the fenceline at him in favour of moving away as I asked.

There have barely been any tantrums and I find myself giving cause to praise him far more than chastise him, which is obviously making life much nicer for both of us. I felt quite emotional today because he was so good and I got a glimpse of how life might be if we keep up the work.

There is still so much to work on and he's still very challenging but we're finally starting to gain some momentum and the ball is rolling along well.

Thank you to everybody who offered advice, gave support, gave feedback, told me not to give up etc because without that I honestly think I would've chucked in the towel.

Here he is with Sol whom we went a walk with as I'm trying to get him used to walking with other dogs as I'd like him to have some doggy pals.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> I need to get cracking on with Ritter's tracking so we can progress through the UKTDA stuff, it's just finding somebody to do it with who has access to land.
> 
> I feel like Ritter and I have turned a corner and I no longer tell myself each day that he's got to go back. I think we're starting to understand each other and become a team. I've learned to take my cues from him and let him tell me when he's ready to learn. There's no point trying to get him to listen when his head is in the shed so on those occasions I just manage him and try to bring him back down to a calmer level.
> 
> ...


It makes me so happy to read this! I'm so glad you feel like you've turned a corner and can actually enjoy your time together. Great pic of the boys too.


Over Xmas I've done bugger all really with the dogs. I work over Xmas and New Year, and what with family and meals etc (and trying to have a bit of a break on my days off!) the dogs haven't been out much and I've not cracked on with any training really.


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## Lovemyboy (Sep 9, 2021)

Leanne77 said:


> I need to get cracking on with Ritter's tracking so we can progress through the UKTDA stuff, it's just finding somebody to do it with who has access to land.
> 
> I feel like Ritter and I have turned a corner and I no longer tell myself each day that he's got to go back. I think we're starting to understand each other and become a team. I've learned to take my cues from him and let him tell me when he's ready to learn. There's no point trying to get him to listen when his head is in the shed so on those occasions I just manage him and try to bring him back down to a calmer level.
> 
> ...


 I have followed your posts and I can honestly say I read this with a massive grin on my face. Well done to you both and here’s to the adventures.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Leanne77 said:


> I need to get cracking on with Ritter's tracking so we can progress through the UKTDA stuff, it's just finding somebody to do it with who has access to land.
> 
> I feel like Ritter and I have turned a corner and I no longer tell myself each day that he's got to go back. I think we're starting to understand each other and become a team. I've learned to take my cues from him and let him tell me when he's ready to learn. There's no point trying to get him to listen when his head is in the shed so on those occasions I just manage him and try to bring him back down to a calmer level.
> 
> ...


Absolutely love this post and a Sol picture too?! Sol is one of my favorite PF dogs (though now I see him more on insta than on here). 
Great update on Ritter  We all knew you'd get there!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's such great news @Leanne77 , am so happy for you that you are enjoying Ritter so much more now.

As for tracking, maybe have a look at surrounding areas & see who owns the land. I did that when I moved here & have found the local farmers have been really great. I have access to all sorts.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

@Leanne77 that’s amazing. I am still a long way from there with Ava - still struggling to get any sort of engagement from her. 
But she has recovered really well from her spay and got the all-clear (and lots of cuddles) from the vets yesterday so hopefully now we can start to do more she will be less bored. 
We start gundog classes again next week and then we are off on a gundog retreat at Devon Dogs soon. Plus I have some more mantrailing lined up for her. 
I am really pleased with how well she has coped with the rest period though ♥


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Leanne77 Archer & I went mantrailling today & we met one of Ritter's litter mates. He was called Newt & the lady (cant remember her name tho!) & she had another Tickencote called Boswell, as well as the Manchester Terrier she was working. Small world eh?!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> @Leanne77 Archer & I went mantrailling today & we met one of Ritter's litter mates. He was called Newt & the lady (cant remember her name tho!) & she had another Tickencote called Boswell, as well as the Manchester Terrier she was working. Small world eh?!


That would be Vanessa. Newt was the only other black and white in the litter. Yes, very small world! How did you find out he was Ritter's littermate?

I've met 3 of his littermates but never Newt.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> That would be Vanessa. Newt was the only other black and white in the litter. Yes, very small world! How did you find out he was Ritter's littermate?
> 
> I've met 3 of his littermates but never Newt.


She mentioned the breed & said how 'challenging' this one was & I said I knew someone who was also finding that. It was only when she said his kennel name that I realised. He was very handsome, like Ritter but less 'leggy'. She wasn't working him today but it would be nice to see him in action.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> She mentioned the breed & said how 'challenging' this one was & I said I knew someone who was also finding that. It was only when she said his kennel name that I realised. He was very handsome, like Ritter but less 'leggy'. She wasn't working him today but it would be nice to see him in action.


He's much lighter in colour than Ritter too. I've seen photos of him and noticed he was much shorter in the leg.
Did you mantrail with Breckland something or other?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> He's much lighter in colour than Ritter too. I've seen photos of him and noticed he was much shorter in the leg.
> Did you mantrail with Breckland something or other?


Yes, we did. A private arboretum, really lovely. Absolutely chucked it down all afternoon but Archer was so bloody amazing that it was worth it


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

So it seems that the return to gundog training yesterday was a little too exciting…









It was hurting yesterday but I assumed it was just bruised but it’s worse today.
And to think I have just booked more mantrailing sessions for the ungrateful little brat!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh no @Dimwit is it broken?


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Oh no @Dimwit is it broken?


Possibly. As I am in no hurry to sit around in A&E for hours I had a video call with a nurse this morning. I have been advised to keep it taped up and ice it every few hours. If no improvement by Sunday then they want me to go to A&E and get it x-rayed


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> Possibly. As I am in no hurry to sit around in A&E for hours I had a video call with a nurse this morning. I have been advised to keep it taped up and ice it every few hours. If no improvement by Sunday then they want me to go to A&E and get it x-rayed


Ouch! I have had several finger injuries over the years & luckily all been ok but one of my friends had a damaged tendon & now her finger won't bend at all 

Marnie caught my little finger with her tooth when we were playing a few weeks ago. As this is a common injury I get with my clumsy dogs, I did what I usually did & simply wiped it on my (filthy) jeans & thought nothing of it.

Till the next day when my finger swelled up & looked like a fat chipolata! Again, I thought it would be ok but the next day half my hand was swollen & I had really bad pins & needles. Luckily I got a Dr's appt really quickly &* a short course of AB's sorted it. 

Lesson learned tho, make sure I clean the wound immediately in future. I've recently read a book about infections so you'd think I'd be more vigilant   

Hope you heal quickly @Dimwit ... but mainly how did the lesson go? Was the injury worth it ?


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Hope you heal quickly @Dimwit ... but mainly how did the lesson go? Was the injury worth it ?


Lesson was good - she was very excited to be back. But I even managed to do some off lead heelwork with her!
Then she got very overexcited when the dummies came out and one of the other people threw their dog's dummy too close to her so she lunged for it and managed to wrap the lead round my finger in the process.
Apart from that she was brilliant at everything apart from the distance retrieve (which she used to be really good at), but she ran out to get the dummy and then decided not to bring it back to me. All the dogs were a bit iffy though and instructor is going to make sure we do more of this. With Ava, I think it was the combination of someone else throwing the dummy for her and the fact that she has done no retrieving for weeks because of her spay.

I also get lots of holes in my fingers from her accidentally catching them with teeth. TBH I rang 111 this morning because I couldn't move the finger and I thought they would basically tell me not to waste their time, but the guy said they take finger injuries quite seriously, and because I do use my hands a lot I thought it was best to get it checked out.

The bonus is that I have managed to persuade my sister to come over and do all my washing up


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ouch @Dimwit looks painful! Really makes you wonder sometimes why we put ourselves through the mental and emotional pain! 
I got the long line unknowingly round my foot the other day, threw the toy, Ritter sped off at full speed and suddenly my leg was yanked away from me! Fortunately the line slipped off my foot before I split myself in half!

I'm having trouble with Ritter at mantrailing now, and it's totally my fault. Because my hamstrings are still really crap and he pulls like a train, I'm really slow, hesitant, panic I'm going to fall over and I don't feed the line out. Ritter is on the other end screaming like a banshee because he's on the trail and wants to work and I'm like a ball and chain round his neck. He's getting so frustrated with me. We ended up double lining which gave me so much more confidence and he worked much better.

He's only 26kg but is so powerful for his size and so many people have said they could never mantrail or canicross him because he's too strong and quick so I really struggle with my pathetic legs. I've lost all confidence in my ability to stay upright.

He did his first canicross run this week of 4 miles, the furthest he's ever gone, even walking. An experienced female started off running him but he proved too much for her so her husband ran him and they overtook the whole group and ended up back at base about 15 mins before anybody else. Apparently he's a natural lead dog and didnt need others to set an example or pace.
This guy is quite keen to train him up for a race in March so I think he'll be going regularly with him for a run. It just gives Ritter another outlet for his energy and speed whilst he's still unreliable off lead.

We are making a bit of progress with recall. He's not bothering so much chasing birds, he completely ignored a crow on the field earlier. His stop whistle is pretty good and so his his turn and recall whistle. We've progressed to recalling around low level distractions too. The trouble I'm having is if he thinks he's going back on a lead he just turns and runs again. I try and mix it up so I put him on a lead, perhaps walk to the poo bin, then go back to the field and release him, and try it with heelwork thrown in with running around so he doesn't associate lead = end of fun. 
I also put the lead on but continue with a game of tug or scattering treats.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> Ouch @Dimwit looks painful! Really makes you wonder sometimes why we put ourselves through the mental and emotional pain!
> I got the long line unknowingly round my foot the other day, threw the toy, Ritter sped off at full speed and suddenly my leg was yanked away from me! Fortunately the line slipped off my foot before I split myself in half!
> 
> I'm having trouble with Ritter at mantrailing now, and it's totally my fault. Because my hamstrings are still really crap and he pulls like a train, I'm really slow, hesitant, panic I'm going to fall over and I don't feed the line out. Ritter is on the other end screaming like a banshee because he's on the trail and wants to work and I'm like a ball and chain round his neck. He's getting so frustrated with me. We ended up double lining which gave me so much more confidence and he worked much better.
> ...


That's a shame about the mantrailing. I know what you mean about panicking about falling over - I am a bit like that with Ava as she is just so strong and I am really reluctant to let her have too much line as that just gives her more leverage. When we did our intro session (at the same place @Cleo38 goes), the instructor said right away that with a high drive dog like Ava we need to work on slowing her down and getting her to use her brain rather than just going off like a rocket, so for our second go he did a much longer and more difficult trail, which really did help. I still need to work on slowing her down and not just letting her drag me along but making it more difficult for her really helped as well.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> That's a shame about the mantrailing. I know what you mean about panicking about falling over - I am a bit like that with Ava as she is just so strong and I am really reluctant to let her have too much line as that just gives her more leverage. When we did our intro session (at the same place @Cleo38 goes), the instructor said right away that with a high drive dog like Ava we need to work on slowing her down and getting her to use her brain rather than just going off like a rocket, so for our second go he did a much longer and more difficult trail, which really did help. I still need to work on slowing her down and not just letting her drag me along but making it more difficult for her really helped as well.


Agree, Simon is so good at reading the dogs (& handlers) & then creating the trail to suit the dogs needs.

Same with Archer & tracking, IGP tracking is very methodical & more of an obedience exercise as the dog has to go to every single footstep. With Archer it was setting him challenges that wouldn't cause frustration but get him to slow down & think more. We did this by aging the track, laying it in a very sporadic way, giving him an outlet for his excitement initially (as I was stupidly trying to get him to be calm but he couldn't do this!), etc. Again it's something you really do have to take a astep back from at times.

Am doing this with Marnie & tracking. She tracks 'nicely' atm but I want more intensity so am going back a few steps. I've added articles now & am using more lead pressure, getting her to really pull towards the track (which is in contrast to the nice controlled start I wanted initially   ). I would rather do this now than continue with something I wasn't completely happy with even if it means going back several steps.

And you should have seen me NYE with Archer when we were mantrailling. We got to the end of the trail & he knew where the misper was but rather than go round a huge bush he tried to drag me through it


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't think I'd be so worried if he had a recall but on top of panicking about falling over, I'm panicking about letting go of the line and him running off. Flynn was really strong but I knew if I fell or had to let go of the line, he'd simply finish the trail or I'd recall him. Ritter was likened to a wild stallion the other day, he's just totally off his rocker and completely feral, despite my best efforts!

As the weather improves and it gets drier, I'll no doubt feel more confident.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Dimwit said:


> Possibly. As I am in no hurry to sit around in A&E for hours I had a video call with a nurse this morning. I have been advised to keep it taped up and ice it every few hours. If no improvement by Sunday then they want me to go to A&E and get it x-rayed


Have you got a minor injuries clinic near you? They're not usually 24hrs but probably a shorter wait than A&E!


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Sarah H said:


> Have you got a minor injuries clinic near you? They're not usually 24hrs but probably a shorter wait than A&E!


At my local hospital you still have t go to A&E for triage and then they will send people over to the minor injuries clinic - but it is always heaving. If finger is still not right by Sunday I will have to go, but it is usually quieter on Sunday mornings as long as you get there after the shift change and before all of the football injuries. I spent over 400 hours during 2020 volunteering at A&E to help with the covid issues so I know it pretty well!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

@Dimwit I hope your fingers have improved today, and you don't have to go to A&E!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Charlie was brilliant over Christmas! He slept the whole time! 😀

He did very sneakily creep under the table, and stole a serviette from someone's lap 🤦‍♀️ but that was the worst he did.
Very proud of him 

He went back to training for the first time in a month yesterday, and although he was still skipping around on two legs, trying to say hello to the other dogs, he did calm (right at the end 😂) and managed to do a few things on four paws.
Our trainer said he's really methodical when searching 😁

He actually sat properly on the wet grass!!!!!! That was a pretty big deal for him.
Disappointed that the French Bulldog is _*still*_ there. Next to us, they're the only ones to have stayed on after the first 8 week block of lessons 

We had slacked a bit with training, so now we're back on it, and we're going to work hard on ignoring dogs, and getting a better recall. He's recalled a few times recently, but he's very easily distracted.
We accidentally wrapped another dog walkers legs up in the long lead the other day, so I'm very keen to be free from it! 😂
Oh and cats! Got to work on his reaction to cats! He's very loud and very embarrassing! 

He's one this Thursday! It's gone so fast! He's still a little  but a very lovable one 😁


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

How are your damaged fingers today @Dimwit ?


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> @Dimwit I hope your fingers have improved today, and you don't have to go to A&E!





Cleo38 said:


> How are your damaged fingers today @Dimwit ?


Fingers crossed (no pun intended) it is getting better. The swelling had gone down yesterday and I could move it more, so 111 said just continue with the self-care.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ritter has suddenly become very wary of strangers. As a pup he'd be jumping all over everybody then seemingly overnight he's changed to backing away and being a bit grumbly. I first noticed it when my eldest nephew came for Christmas dinner and Ritter did not like him. I put that down to it being in the house.
Then when he canicrossed last week he would not approach anybody who came to say hello. He particularly disliked the man who was supposed to be running him. Anyway, the man did try running him and Ritter was ok, deciding at the end that he did like him after all.

Then last night we mantrailed with a male instructor whom he used to love and be a bit too infatuated with. Last night he was very unsure when he came too close.

I'm just wondering what this could be down to. It's not like he hasn't been socialised with people so is it age, hormones, fear stage or a natural protectiveness coming out? Although he doesnt seem protective as he's backing away and coming to me for reassurance.

It's not too much of an issue because I'd rather he wasn't attracted to people or overly friendly but I'm wondering why the sudden change in attitude.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Ritter has suddenly become very wary of strangers. As a pup he'd be jumping all over everybody then seemingly overnight he's changed to backing away and being a bit grumbly. I first noticed it when my eldest nephew came for Christmas dinner and Ritter did not like him. I put that down to it being in the house.
> Then when he canicrossed last week he would not approach anybody who came to say hello. He particularly disliked the man who was supposed to be running him. Anyway, the man did try running him and Ritter was ok, deciding at the end that he did like him after all.
> 
> Then last night we mantrailed with a male instructor whom he used to love and be a bit too infatuated with. Last night he was very unsure when he came too close.
> ...


Bronte is going through a similar weird phase. He's fine with people until they try and touch him when he ducks away. He's not barking or anything just avoids touch (he is 100% happy for me to do pretty much anything to him so it's not general hand shyness). He got a bit worried by a big group of friends that came over for an Xmas party. Was fine sitting/lying next to me feeding him, but was worried about them definitely. Seems to be an indoor thing as well, he's not so worried when out and about. We start agility again soon so we will see what he's like with people he knows but hasn't seen for a while. He was fine with one of my friends who he's known as long as I've had him, but not with another who he's known for the same amount of time. 
I don't put it down to anything in particular, just a fear phase (hopefully!)


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Can I join in??? Now I have a little 1 year old terror!

She has been a little monster tonight!! Only just settled. Pestering Ted to play, which he did at first, so then we did some training and she had a chew and a game of tug and she was still bouncing off the walls. She’s had a normal day so just that way out tonight! I think she was overtired. Like a toddler🤦‍♀️ Good job she’s cute


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

OMG, she is gorgeous @Teddy-dog ! Just caught up on your initial thread about her


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

@Teddy-dog oh, she is gorgeous!

Ava has been getting quite bad again with the action-prompting shrill barking, so I have been working on that a fair bit. It is a tricky one to get the balance right with her as, if I ignore her, she just escalates but I have to be careful how I respond as ANY attention is a win as far as she's concerned.
She is doing quite well though - I think her spay and then me being off work for a week over Christmas just confused her a bit.

We head down to Devon on Friday for our week of gundog training - which should be interesting as, after my finger starting hurting more, I went to the GP who thinks it is probably broken so I have to keep it strapped up for a couple of weeks...


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Teddy-dog said:


> Can I join in??? Now I have a little 1 year old terror!
> 
> She has been a little monster tonight!! Only just settled. Pestering Ted to play, which he did at first, so then we did some training and she had a chew and a game of tug and she was still bouncing off the walls. She’s had a normal day so just that way out tonight! I think she was overtired. Like a toddler🤦‍♀️ Good job she’s cute
> 
> View attachment 582323


She's so cute, I love her ears.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> Can I join in??? Now I have a little 1 year old terror!
> 
> She has been a little monster tonight!! Only just settled. Pestering Ted to play, which he did at first, so then we did some training and she had a chew and a game of tug and she was still bouncing off the walls. She’s had a normal day so just that way out tonight! I think she was overtired. Like a toddler🤦‍♀️ Good job she’s cute
> 
> View attachment 582323


She really is a good-looking dog. I wonder what breeds she is. Do you think you will do an embark or something on her?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm here to give you all hope that with proper training and maturity your teenager will eventually grow up and be calm. 







Yeah right....
She's at least 3 years old, maybe 4 









Bad dog 😂







youtube.com


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I'm here to give you all hope that with proper training and maturity your teenager will eventually grow up and be calm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the moral support!!! 🤣 🤣 
Bronte bit me on the arse the other day after I came downstairs to make a pot of tea while I got dressed. He was so excited to see me he clearly needed a piece to take with him! To be fair it was a nip but it bloody hurts! Little bugger. He's got so much better with the biting that it only comes out sometimes when he's over excited and can't control himself.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm actually a little impressed with Penny with how good she is about grabbing fabric and not skin. It's a self-taught skill, she's usually really good about not catching skin, and when she does by accident, and you say "ow" she lets go right away.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> She really is a good-looking dog. I wonder what breeds she is. Do you think you will do an embark or something on her?


I know! For a dog who has got knows what in her the outcome is very cute! 
I think I might! I’ve always wanted to do one on Ted but he is obviously podenco cross and I just never got round to it. But it would be really interesting to know what was in her


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I'm here to give you all hope that with proper training and maturity your teenager will eventually grow up and be calm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


haha she’s too funny! Such a


Sarah H said:


> Thanks for the moral support!!! 🤣 🤣
> Bronte bit me on the arse the other day after I came downstairs to make a pot of tea while I got dressed. He was so excited to see me he clearly needed a piece to take with him! To be fair it was a nip but it bloody hurts! Little bugger. He's got so much better with the biting that it only comes out sometimes when he's over excited and can't control himself.


Oh yes, Pixel still likes to mouth and she’s nipped me when she’s been overexcited and it hurts from a little dog so bet it does from Brontë! Shes getting better, redirecting onto a toy mostly works well but she can get into a bitey mood!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> I know! For a dog who has got knows what in her the outcome is very cute!
> I think I might! I’ve always wanted to do one on Ted but he is obviously podenco cross and I just never got round to it. But it would be really interesting to know what was in her


Wouldn't it be funny if you did a DNA on Ted and he came back lab X deerhound or something


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Wouldn't it be funny if you did a DNA on Ted and he came back lab X deerhound or something


That would be!! Someone I know has a Spanish rescue and was convinced she was podenco x but she did a DNA and no pod came back. Some other hounds but not what she expected! Though im not sure how many Spanish breeds are on the database so not sure how likely they are to show up!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

So very impressed with Marnie today. We were out this morning & I was in a complete day dream so didn't notice the hare that suddenly shot out. Marnie was off & my heart sank, but I called her & she turned immediately & came running back ..... so fantastic & so very happy!!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Penny took off after a deer the other day - same thing, I wasn't paying attention, she was already off in the woods and I wasn't really watching, I just knew what happened because she had her "deer!" bark going and I could see flashes of her through the trees. I did call, and she came, not sure if I timed my call to coincide with her realizing she wasn't going to catch the deer or if she really did call off, but either way I'll take it!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Penny took off after a deer the other day - same thing, I wasn't paying attention, she was already off in the woods and I wasn't really watching, I just knew what happened because she had her "deer!" bark going and I could see flashes of her through the trees. I did call, and she came, not sure if I timed my call to coincide with her realizing she wasn't going to catch the deer or if she really did call off, but either way I'll take it!


There is a herd of about 10 deer we see each morning. Atm they just mill about but I know they will be plotting to hide then leap out on us when I'm least expecting it .... the [email protected]!


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