# visiting protocol and new vaccination guidelines



## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

usually i would allow kitten visit after the kittens' first vaccination so around after 8 weeks of age. but since the vaccination guidlines have changed my current litter will get their first jabs only at 12 weeks old. i was wondering if any other breeder is changing their vaccs and what you will do about kitten visits. and also when you will allow the kittens to have a full run of the house with the other cats. thanks


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's an interesting question. I always allowed visits earlier as I reckoned the best protection was MDAs and visits before they wore off were actually safer than after only one vaccination at the 8-9 week point. Surely the most vulnerable time would be after MDAs have worn off and before a full course of vaccinations has been completed. I agree with the theory of vaccinating later but I can't see how GCCF breeders are going to manage it on a practical level unless they keep kittens until they're sixteen weeks old.

As to the rest of your household, unless you've raised kittens under a strict protocol equivalent to barrier nursing then I wouldn't be concerned about them mixing when and as you and they are ready.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

well i could still do at 8 weeks and 12 weeks but as per new guidlines in this case there should be a revaccination at 16 weeks. or you can start at 12 and repeat at 16. this means that technically we have been allowing our kittens to go to their new homes for ages without a full course of vaccinations being completed but we didn't know it. but i can still imagine a kitten vaccinated at 13 weeks twice is more protected than being only once. but i don't like the idea of such young kittens being vaccinated three times so i would really prefer the starting at 12 weeks method. but am just confused now about their immune systems and protection. i only want to do what's best for them. but i can't really not allow future owners to see their kittens before 13 weeks or keep them until 16 to finish the course myself can i. i am sure they would all prefer to have their kittens home by then.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

havoc said:


> As to the rest of your household, unless you've raised kittens under a strict protocol equivalent to barrier nursing then I wouldn't be concerned about them mixing when and as you and they are ready.


i haven't but i would usually do that at 9 weeks. i figured the few days after their first vacicination they are too vulnerable but then again in the time before the vaccination also, so a week after their first jab i figured is best although i don't know how long after their jabs their immune system is weakened. but now that i will be vaccinating at 12 weeks... i just don't know if it's okay in terms of socialization an whatnot to wait until 13 weeks but am not really sure about allowing them to mix before their first jabs. i'm just so confused over these new guidlines.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

koshka said:


> i haven't but i would usually do that at 9 weeks. i figured the few days after their first vacicination they are too vulnerable but then again in the time before the vaccination also, so a week after their first jab i figured is best although i don't know how long after their jabs their immune system is weakened. but now that i will be vaccinating at 12 weeks... i just don't know if it's okay in terms of socialization an whatnot to wait until 13 weeks but am not really sure about allowing them to mix before their first jabs. i'm just so confused over these new guidlines.


If you are concerned about new owners giving your kittens one of the viruses you are vaccinating against, it might be a good idea to look at your vaccine manufacturer's datasheets. You could be a little surprised about the length of time before onset of immunity.

If you are just concerned about transmisiion of infection within your household, I suppose it depends what the possibles are. I would always keep young kittens away from any cat with a known infectious condition.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

mostly i am just concerned with the babies picking up something (anything) when their immune system is weak. but due to these guidlines i am totally confused in terms of when that is. none of my cats have any infectious conditions that i know of but not mixing them with a litter when the kittens' immune system is weak is a precaution i take in regards to coronavirus. granted i have never tested and have not had issues with FIP so far, but i would rather just assume that coronavirus is present in my household and take precautions than assume it's not and do nothing.

sorry i just realized i have been spelling guidelines wrong the whole time. if any mod can help fix the title name that would be good. my slight dyslexia isn't helping with my spelling!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_granted i have never tested and have not had issues with FIP so far, but i would rather just assume that coronavirus is present in my household and take precautions than assume it's not and do nothing._
You are going to have to maintain an extremely strict separation for the entire time the kittens are with you if FCoV is your worry. Why not test your adult cats? Not knowing is the same as doing nothing. If you don't test and assume you have it why worry about the other cats in the household when the most likely source of infection would be the mum.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

i sense an unfair implication that i am not doing "everything i could" in this last comment and i'm really sure why there is a need for this. but i will reply because i don't like my methods, however unusual they might be, questioned when i have not had a problem with FIP in my almost ten years of breeding.

the tests available around here (and i'm not just saying it because i've done my research thoroughly and spoke with the proper professionals) will only tell you whether or not your cats have coronavirus antibodies and not whether any one of them is currently shedding it. that is actually of not much use when you have cats that come from environments where coronavirus is highly likely to be present (breeders). if at least one newcomer cat brings it into the house, all resident cats get infected and subsequently all of them had, at some point, had the infection. this means the antibodies will be present but there is no way to tell in regards to this whether or not the cat is currently infected, or has had fcov in the past. i think in the uk you have the possibilty to test the shedding in the actual feces but not here. i'm not sure if there is a possibilty of sending a sample to the uk but until i have a fip problem i have no reason to go to such lengths. you say not knowing is the same as doing nothing but i do wonder how many breeders out there actually test for fcov. most just say there is nothing they can do about it. and many of those are breeders that have had issues in the past. 
my pregnant queens live in my bedroom away from other cats to avoid any issues (cat fights) and before anyone chimes in to say they get lonely this way, they are actually very happy enjoying my individual attention. i wouldn't do anything that would make my cats unhappy. on top of this, they don't use the toilet their kittens use (there's one in the pen and one outside in my bedroom, they've always prefered going outside). in the two months pregnancy time i disinfect the queens toilet everytime she goes to make number 2. and take special hygiene precautions in my bedroom (cleaning thoroughly, removing slippers). it is highly likely that the queen, if infected, has already overcome fcov by the time she gives birth, and using a different toilet makes it even less likely that she would infect kittens. if you read dr pedersen's FIP sheet one of the advice given is also to limit fcov exposure until the immune system is better developed, which is why i prefer mixing kittens with the adults a bit later (albeit not as late as he suggests).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_i sense an unfair implication that i am not doing "everything i could" in this last comment_
It isn't intended to be, the thread was initially about vaccinations which I answered and then you (not me) brought up FCoV being your concern and as they are two very separate questions I stuck to one point at a time. I'm still struggling a little to understand which it is you are asking about and want to achieve. If you are sure your breeding queens are FCoV free and you have other cats which may not be then 100% strict separation is obviously the answer for both the queens and the kittens.

_the tests available around here (and i'm not just saying it because i've done my research thoroughly and spoke with the proper professionals) will only tell you whether or not your cats have coronavirus antibodies and not whether any one of them is currently shedding it_
There is a test to check for shedding the virus but if it isn't available wherever you are then you can't use it. That wouldn't stop you using titer testing to see if your queens are FCoV +ve if you wished. Negative results are peace of mind. I would only test for shedding if I'd tested a queen, found her +ve and was considering the early weaning protocol ie separating the kittens from her. Early weaning is something I'd be loathe to do unless it was shown to be absolutely necessary so RT-PCR testing would be worthwhile on a +ve mum.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

titer tests can not tell whether a cat is infected currently or has been in the past. it is pretty safe to assume that a cat born to a breeder and living in a multi cat household where new cats come in all the time will have a positive titre result. strict separation of the queen and the kittens - and risk not socializing them? for what purpose when my method, which is taking dr pedersen's advice and limiting possible fcov exposure for the time while the kittens' immune system is developing and only (possibly) exposing them a bit older has yet to fail? how many breeders don't know their fcov status, take zero precautions with the queens, let kittens mix with adults early on and have had fip issues? you would probably be surprised. 

my concern with vaccinations and fcov is in terms of a weaker immune system arising for the time after the vaccinations which makes the risk of kittens developig fip higher. this will now come only at 12 weeks. i don't think i would feel comfortable mixing cats/allowing visits before the first jab. but then again, is this even reasonable... so i was just wondering if any other breeder is facing the same dilemmas and for any advice on how to resolve those.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ i don't think i would feel comfortable mixing cats/allowing visits before the first jab_
The most vulnerable time surely is between the waning of MDAs and full protection from a complete course of vaccinations. This is the very time when most breeders are happiest to allow visits so you can just carry on doing whatever you feel comfortable with.

_my concern with vaccinations and fcov is in terms of a weaker immune system arising for the time after the vaccinations which makes the risk of kittens developig fip higher. this will now come only at 12 weeks._
If I understand you, you're saying that under the previous vaccination protocol your kittens were at increased risk of being infected with FCoV from 8 weeks because that first vaccination compromised their immune system and now that increased risk won't apply until they're 12 weeks. Frankly I don't think it makes much difference. We're still talking about an immature immune system and if kittens are in an FCoV +ve household then they're likely to become infected. Genetics are just as important hence those breeders who 'get away with it', they have lines which don't carry a susceptibility to seroconvert.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_titer tests can not tell whether a cat is infected currently or has been in the past._
I'm not really convinced this is the whole truth. The level of antibodies wanes over time so a very high titer would generally indicate a more recent infection than a low one. The whole point of testing (and retesting) in a breeding household is to see those levels reduce, hopefully to zero, whilst working to prevent reinfection once they do drop. In a +ve multi cat household a constant round of reinfection is what keeps levels high.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Koshka, you're talking as though these guidelines are cutting edge news. They're not! It's been understood for years that kittens *might not* be fully protected if vaccinated at 9 and 12 weeks, but that doesn't mean they *definitely won't* be. It depends firstly on how strong the antibody protection was from mum, and secondly when they decide to wean. The earlier the wean, the earlier mum's antibodies are eliminated, the earlier the vaccinations will be effective. I don't know why you're in such a tizz about this, nor why you're having a go at Havoc. If your concern is FCOV, that's nothing to do with vaccinations, and if you want to maintain FCOV negative kittens, then they should not be having any visitors full stop! Anyone can bring FCOV in from anywhere, and unless you run lab quarantine conditions, you as a breeder cannot guarantee that your kittens are not exposed. As soon as you let them mix with other cats, they're likely to get it, and when they're vaccinated has nothing to do with that. Do you change your clothing and shoes, net your hair up and disinfect yourself every time you enter the kitten room? Do you have an antechamber where you can leave dirty things, change, then do the same on the way out? If not, then there's no point in worrying about it as you'll carry it in with you if your own guys have it. If you've not had a problem in 10 years though, you're probably lucky enough to have a genetically resistant line, so I'd stop worrying. FIP can be influenced by stress, and the more uptight and stressed you are, the more the cats will pick up on this and the more unhappy they'll be. Vicious circle then.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

i'm not having a go at anyone, and i've explained my concern over FIP and vaccinations. first i get a breeder telling me "not knowing is the same as doing nothing" and then there comes another, the type that i already mentioned, that refuses to accept ANY responsibility for coronavirus. it's funny that you two would agree. yes it can be brought into a household on clothing, but it's not as common as breeders like to say. it's not even nearly as hard to maintain a negative household as you're trying to make it out to be (mine might as well could be negative), rather it's an excuse for breeders when FIP occurs - "fcov is everywhere". yes, when you have fcov, it is very contagious and nearly impossible to prevent all household cats being infected. but when you don't have it, it's not as hard to maintain a negative household as you make it out to be and is simply not true that it will be brought into the house as long as you have visitors. fcov does not just appear all of a sudden. if i ever had a problem, i would certainly seize breeding until making sure i have a negative household and not be making up excuses about how you would have to live in a laboratory to prevent fcov entering your household. that is simply not true. but i know that most breeders will says things like that, because it's much easier than realizing you have a problem and solving it.  and it is also not true that it doesn't matter when cats are vaccinated, because if you will mix them up with positive cats right after a vaccination when the immune system is very weakened and they get infected then, it increases the chance of FCoV mutating into FIP greatly. my vaccination dilemma was first and foremost when to allow visitors, because even though these guidelines are indeed not new, it is the first time that i will be following them, and i was wondering if any breeder is facing similar dilemmas (apparently not).

havoc, a high titer is not by any means a definitive indication of a recent infection. some cats' titer remains high forever and vice versa. even molecular testing does not differ highly pathogenic isolates from lower.

truthfully i have been told that this forum has a few regular members sticking up together all the time and riling up on any newcomers, and rightly so. i like a good debate, and i like receiving advice, but i don't like people making conclusions and trying to present their "holier than thou" opinions as facts, lacking the proper information and giving out improper advice. remember that when any new breeder with a fip problem will come here and see the latter post which frees the breeder of any responsibility, they will gladly take that advice. but it is simply NOT true that there is nothing a breeder can do to prevent a FCoV infection. and FCoV was never the main concern in this post, indeed i mentioned it first, but little did i know someone will turn my words around and try to make a big deal out of it by trying to make it out as if i'm doing something wrong. thanks havoc for the only real proper advice in terms of what i was initially asking and trying to understand me. i don't think i will be coming again here, though.

best regards,
koshka


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It's going off at a tangent from the original question but as it's been mentioned....many kittens will go off to their new homes where there is already a resident cat or cats. Aside from the fact that kittens may not develop full immunity until two weeks post vaccination, I wonder how other breeders feel when, having done all they believe to be their best in preventing FCoV infection, the kittens leaves to enter a multi-cat household where, in the vast majority of cases for pet owners, none of the cats will have ever been FCoV tested.


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## koshka (Apr 25, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> It's going off at a tangent from the original question but as it's been mentioned....many kittens will go off to their new homes where there is already a resident cat or cats. Aside from the fact that kittens may not develop full immunity until two weeks post vaccination, I wonder how other breeders feel when, having done all they believe to be their best in preventing FCoV infection, the kittens leaves to enter a multi-cat household where, in the vast majority of cases for pet owners, none of the cats will have ever been FCoV tested.


this kitten, though, still has a much lower chance of developing fip than a kitten that has been infected in the breeder's house at 5-6 weeks. kittens usually go to their new homes at 12-16 weeks and by that time their immune systems are much more developed, making the risk of FCoV mutating much lower (see dr pedersen's FIP sheet).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_it's not even nearly as hard to maintain a negative household as you're trying to make it out to be (mine might as well could be negative),_
Who has said it's hard to maintain a -ve household? Not me because I've done it. It was my choice and I understand that some breeders choose not to go down that route. I still don't understand how it can be done without testing at least once - wishful thinking does not equal FCoV -ve whatever the breeder's protocols.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

koshka said:


> this kitten, though, still has a much lower chance of developing fip than a kitten that has been infected in the breeder's house at 5-6 weeks. kittens usually go to their new homes at 12-16 weeks and by that time their immune systems are much more developed, making the risk of FCoV mutating much lower (see dr pedersen's FIP sheet).


I agree, in part, though I'm far from convinced that a 12-16 week old kitten would have a sufficiently developed immune system which is why the majority of cats that succumb to FIP will do so up to around 2 years old. So the question of how breeders feel about kittens', for want of a better way of describing what I mean, 'ongoing welfare' when placed into homes that often contain pedigree cats (purchased from breeders, as you mention these are potentially high risk cats for FCoV infection).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

koshka said:


> <snip>
> it's funny that you two would agree.
> <snip>
> truthfully i have been told that this forum has a few regular members sticking up together all the time and riling up on any newcomers, and rightly so. i like a good debate, and i like receiving advice,
> <snip>


People often agree because they agree, not because there is a conspiracy to persecute new members.

Also there is a hazard to asking advice - you don't like the advice that is given.

After reading the thread I'm not really sure what your question is. It started out as what visits would we allow under the 'new' protocols. My answer is that I allow visits from about 6 weeks - in the UK the normal vaccine protocol is at 9 weeks and 12 weeks.

Then the question seemed to morph into a discussion about FIP, and it went downhill from there.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

koshka said:


> usually i would allow kitten visit after the kittens' first vaccination so around after 8 weeks of age. but since the vaccination guidlines have changed my current litter will get their first jabs only at 12 weeks old. i was wondering if any other breeder is changing their vaccs and what you will do about kitten visits. and also when you will allow the kittens to have a full run of the house with the other cats. thanks


Sorry for going off at a tangent  To answer your original question, my kittens are vaccinated at 9 & 12 weeks. I would most usually invite people to see kittens from 6 weeks old as I don't perceive there to be any greater risk in this, than delaying until several days/a week after first vaccination at 9 weeks (and there may well be greater risks at just post the 9 week vaccination). I'm happy to do so also because we have other visitors (who either own cats or do not) in the house who will, doubtless at some point, be playing, etc, with the kittens.

On when to let them have the run of the house with the other cats - I don't, at any time, as mine are kept with their mother only until they leave for their new homes.

I'm not so sure it is about the various timings, but more about how individual breeders perceive risks and how they balance those against what they feel is a workable, day-to-day way of how they raise kittens and their ideas on maximum socialisation.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

For your information, Koshka, I too have never had FIP problems, nor would I shirk responsibility if I did. But here's a thought. If you want people to help you, perhaps try to not suggest that they're all bad breeders because they have a differing opinion to yours. I don't appreciate it being intimated that I would merrily let kittens go on their way with FIP and bury my head in the sand about it.

Here's a thought for you. How can you say you're doing all you can to prevent FIP when you haven't even done the antibody test on your kittens or cats to see if they carry FCOV? You can't. So that high horse is not a place for you to be at the moment.

To the rest of you, another thought that occurs to me is that if you run an FCOV negative household and then the kitten comes into contact with FCOV at a later age, isn't it going to be much harder for them to fight off because they will have to build their immune response from scratch? Isn't there then potentially (and I am playing devil's advocate here) more risk of them then contracting FIP if they are unlucky enough to come in contact with the seroconverted strain? I've often wondered if the genetic element is simply an immune response which can effectively remove the seroconvert rather than a complete immunity.

So aren't there equal risks in allowing cats to have FCOV and maintaining a negative household?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

carly87 said:


> aren't there equal risks in allowing cats to have FCOV and maintaining a negative household?


That's something I've never been able to find an answer to and why the subject interests me so much. I know there are very many if's and but's to this but, basically speaking, is an FCoV free kitten at higher risk when going into a home with existing FCoV positive cats? I do understand the fundamental difference between coronavirus 'antibodies' and a cat/kitten possessing protective antibodies for other diseases so my vague and not necessarily correct assumption is that previous FCoV infection affords no protection against future exposure to other cats shedding virus.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ so my vague and not necessarily correct assumption is that previous FCoV infection affords no protection against future exposure to other cats shedding virus._
This is my understanding. I thought long and hard about whether it was worth an attempt to eliminate FCoV from my household when I discovered I had it and it was this helped to tip the balance in favour of peace of mind. There were other things - I didn't have a very large household and could afford to test (though not as often as recommended), the risk of FIP was a bigger deal in those days in that the figures given for percentage conversions were much higher so risk/benefit was different, my queens tended to support each other with kittens and as this was their choice it was something I wished to continue. It suited me to be able to carry on working my kittens into an integrated household. I had one litter which couldn't be and I'd have stopped breeding if I'd had to carry on isolating kittens. For a breeder who does so in their normal course of breeding and raising kittens it wouldn't be such a big deal.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

From what I understand with my medical background, although the FCOV mutates and changes, some of its antigens (little things on the surface which trigger the immune system) will stay the same. It's sort of like the cold, although that's not a good analogy really as it mutates so much more quickly. But the first time you get the cold as a child, you get it bad. Rattly chest, so bunged up you can't breathe etc etc. Next time you get it it's not so bad because the immune system possesses memory B cells I think they're called (going way back now). But in basic, they're cells which remember the viruses etc that the body has been in contact with before. As long as they're not so mutated that they bare no resemblance at all to the original, the body will mount an immune response much more quickly to the second onslaught, thus meaning that the virus has less time to wander unchecked in the body before it's detected and the defences start. This is why I worry about FCOV negative kittens in particular, as their immune system is immature so is working hard in any case. I think, and I'm still not sure about this, but I think I'd rather they came across the non FIP strain of FCOV early at a time when their immune systems were being supported and not overwhelmed by everything else.

I'm still an open book on this and am definitely not firmly on one side or the other. I tend to run my household within guidelines, i.e low stress, not allowing fights or bullying, cats living in no ore than groups of 5 (normally smaller), proper tray management etc. So the risk of FCOV here is low. I chose not to test though because if they had the titre count, I'd worry myself sick, and if they didn't have any, I'd worry about kittens or worry every time I went to a show or to the vet or anywhere. So I keep my house as low risk as possible which is what I'd do anyway if I was trying to eliminate it. I don't think breeders are wrong for testing and I don't think they're wrong for not doing it.

At the end of the day, the hard truth is that if your cat is susceptible to FIP, nothing you do short of keeping that cat in isolation or being very very careful that it doesn't come into contact with anything that's been in contact with another cat, or another person who has a cat, is going to protect it. I think breeders' time would be more profitable examining which lines are susceptible and eliminating them from the breeding programmes, just as we do with anything else that becomes a problem.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I chose not to test though because if they had the titre count, I'd worry myself sick,_
That's a good point. I found out I had it 'by accident' rather than through an FIP scare and had to make the choice. I'd take a guess my lines are reasonably resistant because FIP hadn't figured but finding out when I'd got a girl due in a couple of weeks wasn't funny. At that stage I had no idea of the status of the mum as she wasn't the tested cat. I'm not sorry about the choice I made because it was right for me - my only other option would have been to worry for evermore, to dread the phone ringing, to hate the sight of an email in my inbox from anyone who had taken one of my kittens. I went through all of that with the litter born into my then +ve household and my stomach was in knots for a year. When push comes to shove I couldn't get away from the fact that a cat which has not been infected with FCoV can't die of FIP. Yes, there's a risk once it leaves my care but then there are many risks which I have no control over once that kitten belongs to someone else.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

But, and again playing devil's advocate because I'm genuinely curious, do you not now have grounds to wonder whether your actions, i.e, maintaining a negative household, actually puts your kittens more at risk? I think, given the number of cats that have it and how easy it is to carry, that it's pretty much guaranteed that a cat is probably going to come in contact with it at one point or another. The way I see it is that I have no control over that, same as I have no control over whether they're allowed to mix with cats with cat flu or Leukaemia. I vaccinate for that, knowing that there's still a risk they could catch it. I just wonder if early exposure to safe FCOV is the equivalent.

Please don' think I'm having a go at what you're doing. I'm genuinely not. As I said in my original post, I don't think it's wrong to do it or wrong not to. We simply don't know enough yet to make a sound judgement.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

They're fair questions Carly. Firstly, on the understanding that all the experts agree that if a cat will be infected then later is better than sooner then generally no, I don't agree that it's better for kittens to have it with the breeder. How do you ensure they become infected at 12 weeks rather than five if you don't know the mum's status? I suppose you could argue that they may at least go off to new homes with a high enough level of antibodies still present to stop them contracting a different strain for a while but I still can't see the advantage balanced against the stressors involved in rehoming where the vast majority of kittens are concerned.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Please don' think I'm having a go at what you're doing. I'm genuinely not. As I said in my original post, I don't think it's wrong to do it or wrong not to. We simply don't know enough yet to make a sound judgement._
I don't think you're having a go at all 
Perhaps if I turn it round and you, by happenstance, find out you have a +ve household. Would you carry on exactly as you are at present, working on the theory that kittens are better off and to some extent protected by having being infected whilst with you? You've already said you'd worry for knowing. Trust me - worry doesn't come close  Once you know you have a choice to make and I made the right one for me and my cats.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The above makes me wonder if there is new information about Fcov and FIP. When I was breeding it was thought that certain breeds of cat were more susceptible to developing FIP and certain lines might also have a tendency. I know Langford has been involved in recent research presumably with UC Davis but I have not seen any papers from them.

However, the main difference here is that there is no mention of what I thought to be proven fact. That is, the coronavirus mutates within the individual cat to create its own FIP. Is this no longer held to be true?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_That is, the coronavirus mutates within the individual cat to create its own FIP. Is this no longer held to be true?_
Not sure what latest thinking is to be honest. I'd been led to believe certain strains of the coronavirus can be more likely to cause a problem but this could be either old news or reasoning to explain 'hot' outbreaks before the genetic link was proposed. My own experience is well out of date.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I went to a seminar delivered by Langford about a year ago. The thinking then was that there was definitely a genetic link, and that if another cat in the household was susceptible, they could be infected by the mutated strain, just as they would be with FCOV in general. They would then go on to develop FIP. However, what the genetic link is remains to be seen as they did say that they know of litters in which some got it and some didn't, even if rehomed in pairs and exposed to the same stressors.

I don't know, Havoc. If I had a reason to test, then of course I would, and it would probably stop me from breeding as I would then feel obliged to retest everyone every time I went to a show, had kitten visitors in or took a cat to the vet. It would bankrupt me. I already over-test for everything else, i.e fecals etc, and know I'd do the same if I had a high titre in the house here. To be honest though, I don't know if I'd panic about low ones. My personal belief as I say is that it's better to be infected with the good strain than the FIP one in your first infection. As I mentioned though, this is definitely not a firm stance, and subject to change at a moment's notice.

Question though. When you say that experts agree it's better to be infected later than sooner, is this infected with FIP or infected with normal FCOV that you're talking about?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_When you say that experts agree it's better to be infected later than sooner, is this infected with FIP or infected with normal FCOV that you're talking about?_
FCoV. Wish I could remember who said it now but I do remember the comment came from a seminar some years ago. The discussion was definitely on breeding and kittens and it has stuck with me.

_I don't know, Havoc. If I had a reason to test, then of course I would, and it would probably stop me from breeding as I would then feel obliged to retest everyone every time I went to a show, had kitten visitors in or took a cat to the vet. It would bankrupt me._
Hopefully you'd calm down after a bit and make decisions based on your own circumstances. I didn't test nearly as often as I should according to guidelines at the time. Certainly the main danger by a country mile was not considered to be any of the things you mention. I'm fairly sure it came into my house via a visit to an infected stud and not from visitors, shows or vet visits.

As someone pointed out to me when I went into meltdown at first finding out - "the only difference between yesterday and today is that today you know". It's a sensible way of looking at it - after you've thrown up, scrubbed the house from top to bottom, lost sleep and convinced yourself you'll never breed again of course. I might well have given up breeding if I hadn't had kittens due. I had no choice but deal with it and having gone through thirteen weeks of the very protocols which will help prevent (re)infection it made sense to carry on.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_My personal belief as I say is that it's better to be infected with the good strain than the FIP one in your first infection_
As I haven't had reason to keep up lately this does interest me. Which are the 'good' strains?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry, I mean the non-mutated type. From memory though, and I'll need to go back and look at notes to confirm this, I do think they said there was one type which was more likely to mutate than others. This is very vague though, so could be incorrect. Again from a medical background, if you are likely to encounter a pathogen later in life, it is highly recommended that you become exposed to it at a young age when the thymus gland is still functioning. I don't know why this would be any different in the developing immune system of an animal compared to a human, so that's the approach I'm taking.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ I do think they said there was one type which was *more likely* to mutate than others._
Does 'more likely' mean the others are safe - the 'good' version? If current advice is that the less likely strain is a good thing in kittens how does a breeder know it's the strain they have in their household? There are so many variables in whether an infected kitten converts to full blown FIP I can't understand how they'd tell.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

havoc said:


> _My personal belief as I say is that it's better to be infected with the good strain than the FIP one in your first infection_
> As I haven't had reason to keep up lately this does interest me. Which are the 'good' strains?


Fortunately, I also have no need to worry about coronavirus any longer, but I thought I would try to find out any new developments. Idexx are promoting a new test they claim can distinguish between the 'normal' FECV and the mutated form FIPV. If the latter is found in a cat, it does not mean that cat will inevitably progress to FIP but the mutation has occurred so there is a likelihood. The test has various interpretations depending on the result but it could be a help in estimating risk. (I have not yet found independent evaluation of its accuracy.)

I am attaching a paper which is not new but new to me and possibly others on this forum. It suggests a reason why a cat who has FIP is almost never infectious to other cats.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Havoc, just to be clear, current advice is not that the good stuff is good in kittens. That's my thinking based on the medical background I have. I don't know what the expert views are on whether a cat should be exposed young or not. I do know that at the seminar I was at, Tim Gruffet Jones did intimate that it might be better in terms of immune systems to expose young, but he didn't come right out and say that. He couldn't as they didn't yet know enough.

QOTN, thanks for looking up that test. I vaguely remembered reading something somewhere but couldn't find it anywhere! I don't know how accurate it is either though.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Fascinating discussion and lots of valuable information - I havent been able to find anyone who will do controlled matings so at the moment havent tested - having now aquired my own boy it is something I am now considering as FIP worries me to death - I try to lower the risk factors as much as I can but going outto stud is a major risk.

Carly - I have also come across a very experienced breeder who would agree with you on the drawbacks of kittens never being exposed to fcov, so its very interesting to see you make the the same point.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I have also come across a very experienced breeder who would agree with you on the drawbacks of kittens never being exposed to fcov, so its very interesting to see you make the the same point_
It is interesting and I do wish one of the eminent experts in the field would make a less than ambiguous statement one way or the other as it is a growing belief among breeders, mainly those who have never tested. Until and unless someone comes out with clear evidence that it's a good thing for a kitten to be infected there's no way on this earth I would deliberately reintroduce it to a breeding household. I do have a lovely picture in my head of the equivalent of those chickenpox parties in the future should infection turn out to be a positive thing


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

wicket said:


> Fascinating discussion and lots of valuable information - I havent been able to find anyone who will do controlled matings so at the moment havent tested - having now aquired my own boy it is something I am now considering as FIP worries me to death - I try to lower the risk factors as much as I can but going outto stud is a major risk.


This is exactly what I did, Wicket, and had a nasty shock. None of my kittens had ever developed FIP but my cats' titres were all very low and reducing except one who remained high indefinitely. I stopped having her tested in the end. I still think I was right to test and now it seems likely that there is also a genetic component as well as a number of things that all have to go wrong for an individual kitten before the virus mutates, I think people should simply view results as useful information rather than a reason for complete panic. Even the Idexx information for the new test states that identifying the mutated virus only increases the likelihood the cat will go on to develop FIP not that it definitely will.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I think people should simply view results as useful information rather than a reason for complete panic._

^^^^
This - in spades. It is extremely useful information and every breeder can choose what to do with it according to their own circumstances.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

QOTN, you've hit the nail on the head there. It's useful information, but you can't really do anything with it at the moment because there's no definitive way to avoid FIP. That's why I don't test because if I did, it souldn't change anything I do, i.e how I manage my household as I'm already sticking to the protocols, and it would just fill me with an insane amount of worry and make me dread breeding.

Havoc, if I'd worked hard to free my household of it I wouldn't reintroduce it either! All we can do is go with our own best judgement and do what we feel is best for our cats. For you, that's maintaining an FCOV free enfironment. For me, it's making sure that I allow them exposure to *some* pathogens to build what I feel is a more robust immune system. Different strokes for different folks.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I try to lower the risk factors as much as I can but going outto stud is a major risk._
This is where I become so frustrated because it needn't be. The virus doesn't spontaneously appear in a stud so if they're +ve then it's come from somewhere. We have the ability to test for shedding of the virus nowadays, something which was not available until relatively recently. I'd accept a queen with a titre if it wasn't shedding but a reluctance to test even for that means I just end up refusing people.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Interesting topic. Now I haven't read right through so apologies if this has already been mentioned but my understanding is that a cat will most likely develop FIP from the first encounter with coronavirus because whatever it is that causes that virus to mutate in the cat, will do so at the first encounter regardless of the cats age at the time. The fact that most encounter it as youngsters account for the young age of most victims.


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