# Is she pregnant



## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi we have a female and male Labradors.
Our female started her season on the 26th April
The 2 dogs tied quite a few times within about 10-12 days
What we are wondering is should we see she is pregnant yet?
Thank you


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

So have both your Labs been hip and elbow scored....?

'Cause I know you won't want pups that end up lame at the age of two through hip dysplasia, for instance.

Do both your Labs have current BVA clear eye certs?

Has *one* parent been DNA tested 'clear' for CNM and PRA?

After all, you won't want any of your pups going blind at a young age or suffering CNM and dying within a year....


And if your Labs have not been tested prior to your allowing them to mate, then why are you allowing them to tie?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Hi we have a female and male Labradors.
> Our female started her season on the 26th April
> The 2 dogs tied quite a few times within about 10-12 days
> What we are wondering is should we see she is pregnant yet?
> Thank you


Your poor bitch - you sound like you don't have a clue what you are doing.

Please buy they book of the bitch and get learning quickly. You are putting you bitch at risk going into this with so little knowledge.

Sometimes I despair


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2014)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> So have both your Labs been hip and elbow scored....?
> 
> 'Cause I know you won't want pups that end up lame at the age of two through hip dysplasia, for instance.
> 
> ...


I'm confused
How did that answer the posters question?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MLB said:


> I'm confused
> How did that answer the posters question?


I'm not even going to pretend that I am answering the OP's question.

Someone has to speak up to remind people like the OP that it's not as simple as just chucking together two dogs and then hoping the bitch gets pregnant. Labs can pass on some truly awful diseases and conditions to their pups which is *why* the health testing is SO vital.

There are many Labs in rescues throughout the land - this person clearly has no clue what they are doing and thus should not blinking well BE doing it!

And before anyone tries to bash me for being harsh - hell yes, I'm being harsh. If we as dog lovers don't speak up for ethical breeding which puts health first, who will?


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

No joke we love both of our dogs very much they've had tests and are very
Healthy.
Sorry I even come on here for advice it's a shame you are questioned like this I was hoping for advice not a lecture


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> Hi we have a female and male Labradors.
> Our female started her season on the 26th April
> The 2 dogs tied quite a few times within about 10-12 days
> What we are wondering is should we see she is pregnant yet?
> Thank you


If the pair of them mated and tied on a number of occasions, then I would be very surprised if your bitch weren't pregnant. The majority of bitches will conceive after several matings.

The suggestion to buy The Book of the Bitch is a good one. It has all the information you will need to take the best possible care of your bitch throughout her pregnancy and after delivery.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

A vet would probably be able to check if your bitch is pregnant.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> No joke we love both of our dogs very much they've had tests and are very
> Healthy.
> Sorry I even come on here for advice it's a shame you are questioned like this I was hoping for advice not a lecture


Nobody is questioning the love you have for your dogs, but 'love' is not enough to breed responsibly, and there is nothing you have said that suggest you are breeding responsibly - sadly quite the opposite.

Labradors are my breed and I despair at the irresponsible breeding that goes on, the risk to bitches that shouldn't be bred from and the health problems that are passed onto pups.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> The 2 dogs tied quite a few times within about 10-12 days


So the matings took place at 10-12 days? You need to start counting from then. Ovulation can have already taken place, or take place a few days later, so gestation starts from the date of ovulation which may not be the same as date/s of mating.

Scans can be done from around 30 days after mating. Scans are a confirmation of pregnancy, not a head count of litter size.

I am hoping both parents have had the relevant genetic tests done, for eyes elbows and hips especially. It is heartbreaking to own a dog that goes blind at a very young age or is crippled with ED or HD. There may even be ways that buyers of puppies which do develop these issues, can claim in court, that the breeder did not do their best to make sure the puppies would not develop these conditions.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Gary,

OBAYL did jump on you a little quick there, but rest assured it is only because she is passionate about the health and wellbeing of dogs, as we all are (this is a forum for pet lovers, after all  ).

Can you just confirm that your dogs have had hip and elbow scoring done, and got certificates for their eye tests? Everyone will be asking. These tests are very important for ensuring the continuing health of the breed and reducing the chances of your pups developing health problems. 

As for pregnancy diagnosis, an ultrasound scan should reveal all. Your vet will be able to do this pretty simply for you if she is around the 3-4 week mark.

As for advice on breeding, I'm no breeder (not by a long shot) but it does sound as if you need some help. Following the advice of the guys on here regarding which books to read will point you in the right direction. Do you have a mentor? Would the breeder of your dogs be able to help out?


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes this is the first time we've had puppies and it
Will be the last as we plan to get them both neutered so we will not be breeding them on a regular basis


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Yes this is the first time we've had puppies and it
> Will be the last as we plan to get them both neutered so we will not be breeding them on a regular basis


It matters not whether it is a one off litter or you breed 'on a regular basis', the same care, health testing and knowledge is essential.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes they've had all tests they are gorgeous and very well our female is 3 in December and our male is 1. Golden and brown


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> Yes they've had all tests they are gorgeous and very well our female is 3 in December and our male is 1. Golden and brown


Cool, what were their scores?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Yes this is the *first time we've had puppies and it
> Will be the last* as we plan to get them both neutered so we will not be breeding them on a regular basis


I'm not sure that matters, how would you feel if the puppy owners contacted you three years hence and want compensation because their much-loved puppies have gone blind or can't walk?

A casual "once-off" breeding is no exemption.... once you have litter on your hands you're a breeder, just as you are a parent once you've had a baby.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Yes they've had all tests they are gorgeous and very well our female is 3 in December and our male is 1. Golden and brown


Yellow and chocolate then? You do realise the puppies may all come out black?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Yes they've had all tests they are gorgeous and very well our female is 3 in December and our male is 1. *Golden and brown*


Oh dear


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

It wouldn't let me post so had to write this 2/3 3/4


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

No I didn't know they may all come out black but either way we don't mind. We was thinking of keeping one. So a black one would be lovely


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

My girl's just come into season, and I'm hoping to breed from her this time round. My first time, like yours, but I've been looking ing into this and preparing for the last two years. I've shown her to ensure she's a good example of the breed, and have had all relevant health tests done, and have chosen a sire who's fully health tested too.

I do know the sire is a carrier for a disease that causes blindness, but this is no problem as you can mate clear to carrier (my girl's clear) without the risk that any pups would go blind. Although carriers never develop the disease, if you mate carrier to carrier, the pups will be affected, and can go blind. 

I'm just saying this to demonstrate how important DNA testing is before considering which dogs to mate! And of course the other health tests (not checks by your vet) are equally important. 

I've also spent my time reading as much as possible about breeding. Giving birth is highly risky to the dam, and I love my bitch and don't want to take any risks. From my research (well prior to mating) I know that vets can confirm pregnancy 23 days after mating. 

I wish you well - the deed is done - but you do need to bring yourself up to speed pretty quickly. And I sincerely hoe all the correct health tests have been done. I, for one, would not like to bring puppies into the world who could suffer illnesses which make their lives painful, or cause them to go blind.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> It wouldn't let me post so had to write this 2/3 3/4


Oh that's different from this post you made on the other thread, which one is the typo?



Garys2201 said:


> Wouldn't let me post said to short so had to write this 0/3 3/4


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

The KC also recommend elbow scoring for their 'ABS' scheme. In Labs, annual eye testing and the PRA test are essential, too.

Have you had all those done as well?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> No I didn't know they may all come out black but either way we don't mind. We was thinking of keeping one. So a black one would be lovely


You were "thinking" of keeping one? Why on earth did you decide to breed if you're only _thinking_ of keeping a pup?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Gary can you please confirm that both parents are elbow scored?

And can you please confirm that *one* parent has tested DNA clear for PRA and CNM?

Do both dogs have current clear BVA eye certs?


Sorry but if the answer to any of these is 'no' then you are not an ethical breeder and you should not have let the dogs mate.

I really don't care if people dislike my posts - Labs are 'my' breed and it's people like me that help unwanted young Labs find new homes when the original owners give them up because they have debilitating problems that stop them being 'fun'.

Do you have homes lined up Gary?

If not what will happen to the pups that don't have new owners to go to.....?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I refrained from posting last night, as I've not had an easy time of it recently, and really didn't feel up to it. But anyway, here goes, apologies if it is long and convoluted, if it sounds harsh, it's not meant to be, just truthful. 

You really seem incredibly inexperienced in your first post, allowing your dogs to mate and tie over the period of a few days. Now whilst that might sound *natural* and nice for your dogs, the simple fact is, mating is really a fairly *unnatural* process for our dogs, driven by hormones, but it's not a normal thing for our dogs to do as domesticated animals. It's not without risk, and accidents can happen with temperaments running high, if a bitch isn't ready but a dog does forcefully mate and tie, or if a bitch spooks, or if you are unaware of the physiology of a bitch and she has internal problems, you could well end up with injuries and problems galore, to both dogs. As nice as it all sounds to let them get on with it naturally, it's not responsible, dogs rely on us to make these decisions for us, and it's up to us to make sure they get through at least that part of the process without damaging each other. 

You mention golden and brown in your initial post. This alone leads me to worry about your knowledge of Labradors, what might seem a small innocuous typo of a colour, speaks volumes to those who are passionate about the breed. Labradors do not come in a 'golden', or 'brown' colour, they are yellow and chocolate/liver, and generally speaking, unless you have a great knowledge of the lines of your dogs, and this is the best pairing for them, it's rare that an outright chocolate to yellow mating takes place. The reason for this, is that any yellow pups could well be what's known as a dudley, which is not breed standard, so although you can register pups with this colouration, they should not really be bred on from. The likelihood is that the pups will be black, and I'm afraid black Labrador pups, from non-health tested parentage, with no real reason for breeding a litter other than you thought it might be a nice idea before having them spayed/neutered, are struggling to sell. Whole litters are being handed in to rescue, because nobody wants to buy a pup from parentage with no health tests, and no knowledge of breeding/lines etc. 

I notice you've posted two different hip score results for the parents, and I'll be honest, I'm genuinely worried that you may not know what hip scoring is, what it entails, and may just be trying to appease *the forum* by posting some results. If you haven't had the appropriate health tests done, you need to be 100% honest, particularly to potential puppy buyers. Now the old excuses come out from byb's and puppy farmers, who pretty much say, well, they're only for pets, so they don't need health testing, that's only for show dogs etc, same for KC registration papers. Now ask yourself the question, do pet dogs not deserve exactly the same care and attention when it comes to breeding for healthy, happy pups? Are pet dogs some sort of second rate animal to show dogs, or working dogs? The answer is absolutely not, the vast majority of dogs in this country, are pets first and foremost, whether or not they are also shown or worked, so it's just as important, if not more, that for pedigree breeds they are KC registered, and that the relevant health tests are done. For the benefit of the OP, and any other people reading who may not know what these are, this is what I would want doing for my breeding stock:

Hip scores - done under GA and scored out of 53 per hip, usually expressed as a score per hip, with 0/0 being the lowest, and 53/53 being the highest, the lower the better and also preferably as even as possible.
Elbow grades - done under GA and graded from 0-3, usually expressed as the highest grade, so a grade of 0/3 would be a 3.
BVA current clear eye cert - done by one of the BVA eye panel specialists, a list can be found on the BVA website, this is an annual test, recommended to be kept up to date at least every 18 months, and tests for four conditions, to see if they have started to develop
gPRA - DNA test for general progressive retinal atrophy, the condition can lead to blindness for affected status dogs
CNM - DNA test for centro nuclear myopathy, a muscle wasting condition which is potentially fatal for pups, they rarely live through to adult hood with this condition
EIC - DNA test for exercise induced collapse, thought to be widespread, and recommended by the breed clubs to test all breeding stock

The cost for these tests is probably going to be about £650 on average, so that's over £1k for your two dogs, depending on whether you've managed to join any group discount schemes, such as the 20/20 clinics for BVA eye tests etc. 

Now whilst some (including the OP) may think it's all really picky, pulling someone up on their decision to allow their dogs to have a litter of pups, after all, no-one's breaking the law, whether there are health tests in place or not. The sad fact is, the number of litters that are being bred just because the owners think it might be a nice experience, before they have their dogs spayed/neutered, adds up to hundreds, possibly thousands of pups being born year on year. Rescues are overflowing with random crosses, and pedigree dogs, some from one off litters like this one, others from people who repeat the process regularly for a bit of extra cash, and don't care where pups end up. 

Apologies for the long post OP, the short answer is, yes, your bitch could very well be pregnant, as well as the long bits above about health testing, colours etc, and as well as buying The Book of the Bitch, you need to ensure you have funds available for any emergency treatment for your bitch and pups, it's not uncommon to lose pups, or to have to have them pts, if born with severe deformities such as cleft palate; it's not unheard of to lose a bitch during/shortly after whelping either, so please be aware of the risks you have chosen to put your girl through. If she is in whelp, you need to buy whelping equipment, and have a quiet space set aside for her to start getting used to nearer the time. I cannot emphasise just how much hard work it is to look after and raise a litter of puppies, and how expensive it is. 

If you find yourself really unsure about the whole thing, there is an injection called Alizin, which will abort the litter and can be given up to day 42 from memory. Whilst that might sound harsh, dogs do not choose to bring up a family of fluffy puppies, we make that decision for them, and it's not all lightness and cute puppies, as posted above, it can be absolutely heart breaking. 

Again, apologies for the long, convoluted reply, I wish you the best with your bitch, but perhaps if you could look through the eyes of someone who regularly sees people just breeding dogs for the experience, because they can, and the numbers of unwanted puppies and dogs being handed in to rescue, that may help you understand the replies that may sound harsh.


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## bichons4me (May 29, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> No joke we love both of our dogs very much they've had tests and are very
> Healthy.
> Sorry I even come on here for advice it's a shame you are questioned like this I was hoping for advice not a lecture


I totally agree with you, ADVICE was whats you wanted!!!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

bichons4me said:


> I totally agree with you, ADVICE was whats you wanted!!!


and mountains of advice is what he has received. so not sure what your problem with it is...


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

bichons4me said:


> I totally agree with you, ADVICE was whats you wanted!!!


Advice has been given. What should have been said?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

my only litter of labs was from a yellow to chocolate I had one black and one yellow...2 pups one still born the black and 2 trips to the vet while she was in labour very scary not to mention the cost..So make sure you are prepared for an emergency as you never know...Jill


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Well thank you for the words of wisdom.
It's been taken on board.
She seems ok and doing great I will take her to the vets next week. 
Is there a problem with a yellow and brown breeding as I've never heard of this


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Well thank you for the words of wisdom.
> It's been taken on board.
> She seems ok and doing great I will take her to the vets next week.
> Is there a problem with a yellow and brown breeding as I've never heard of this


The problem is, that mating a chocolate/liver and yellow Labrador, could result in what's called a dudley, this is basically a yellow Labrador with the wrong nose, eye and lip leather colour. Yellow Labradors should have a black nose, with black eye and lip leathers, a dudley has liver pigmentation, and they often have a pale eye, which is also highly undesirable. Whilst there's nothing *wrong* as such with this sort of breeding, as I said in my earlier post, it is only done when the dog and bitch are right for each other in every other aspect. It's not done just because people happen to own one of each by those who know what they are doing, and unfortunately, when breeders don't understand colour genetics, they often mate these colours thinking they will mix, a bit like a colour palette, when in reality, without testing for colours, I would assume the pups will most likely be all black. From memory, the yellow would have to carry chocolate for any pups to be chocolate, which is highly unlikely, although it does happen.

I would suggest you KC register all the pups, and place endorsements on them to prevent anyone simply breeding on and registering yet more progeny with the KC. It won't stop people from breeding on necessarily, but it is a good deterrent.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The problem is, that mating a chocolate/liver and yellow Labrador, could result in what's called a dudley, this is basically a yellow Labrador with the wrong nose, eye and lip leather colour. Yellow Labradors should have a black nose, with black eye and lip leathers, a dudley has liver pigmentation, and they often have a pale eye, which is also highly undesirable. Whilst there's nothing *wrong* as such with this sort of breeding, as I said in my earlier post, it is only done when the dog and bitch are right for each other in every other aspect. It's not done just because people happen to own one of each by those who know what they are doing, and unfortunately, when breeders don't understand colour genetics, they often mate these colours thinking they will mix, a bit like a colour palette, when in reality, without testing for colours, I would assume the pups will most likely be all black. From memory, the yellow would have to carry chocolate for any pups to be chocolate, which is highly unlikely, although it does happen.
> 
> I would suggest you KC register all the pups, and place endorsements on them to prevent anyone simply breeding on and registering yet more progeny with the KC. It won't stop people from breeding on necessarily, but it is a good deterrent.


Well I've certainly learnt something about breeding Labradors that I didn't know before.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Once again, I will sound harsh but this just confuses me... People always seem to come to a dog forum AFTER they have made the decision to breed and gone and done it. Or it was an "accident" and 6 weeks later they are asking for an advice. Why go and look for an advice after you've got involved in the messy process of having a litter? Why didn't you discuss all the details with your vet and didn't ask these questions about when will you be able to see if your bitch is pregnant etc? That's what the vets are for. You will need a good vet that knows your dog and is familiar with the course of your dog's pregnancy in case something goes wrong. You won't get much needed advice when the dog is giving birth on a forum from people who can't be there and most don't have the expertise to give good advice. 
I am sorry but it just puzzles me! When a couple decide to have a baby most will go and read books, talk to their doctors etc. But when people decide to play gods and get a litter and 95% of the time there is no research done before starting or even during the poor bitch's pregnancy!
P.s. if some are not willing to make and appointment with a vet to ask questions that interest them because the appointment cost you money, what will these people do when the litter arrives?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

To be fair, many vets would not say whether it's a good idea to breed or not, after all, these are paying clients, so they advise on the outcome of their decisions, not what decision to make. Most don't have much knowledge about breed specific health tests either, nor what sort of planning goes into a *well bred* litter of pups. It's a lot of research and hard work to plan a litter, rather than just putting together two dogs of the same (or not) breed, and see what happens.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> Well I've certainly learnt something about breeding Labradors that I didn't know before.


You can get what's called a rainbow litter with Labradors, ie pups of each colour in there, I ended up with two of each colour in my litter; the stud dog I used was black carrying chocolate and yellow, and Tau is chocolate carrying yellow. Of course they could have all ended up black, or yellow, or dudleys even, mother nature doesn't always go by what should happen according to *statistics*. So even if you know what colours they carry, that doesn't mean you will get a nice even mix of puppies of those colours.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be fair, many vets would not say whether it's a good idea to breed or not, after all, these are paying clients, so they advise on the outcome of their decisions, not what decision to make. Most don't have much knowledge about breed specific health tests either, nor what sort of planning goes into a *well bred* litter of pups. It's a lot of research and hard work to plan a litter, rather than just putting together two dogs of the same (or not) breed, and see what happens.


Oh, I'm not talking about going to vets to discuss whether it was a good decision. Most people have made up their minds anyway. I'm just talking about the general tendency of looking for advice about pregnancy/delivery/care of pups. I know your average joe won't think of looking for a real breeder as a mentor, but I can't understand why people don't discuss the important pregnancy questions and medical situations with their vet. After all, it's the vet who will end up having to help them if anything goes wrong? You can read all the books you want, but without a specialist at the other end of the line I would say it's pretty naive to plan a litter.
At the end of the day, people who do all the tests for their dogs have learnt about them by reading and learning from other experienced people so most of these people would already have a some sort of mentor to get most of their answers from.


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

I think the main reason they ask for "advice" after the fact is that whatever they may say they really just want the money for the pups and don't really want to hear any adverse arguments about breeding before they do it. Then they throw a hissy fit when they get the advice that they didn't want to hear, moan about everyone on the forum and then disappear off into the sunset rubbing their hands at the thought of the cash they will make.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother and we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too. I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
> We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother and we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too. I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


Do you know why that is nonsense?

1 - it's a huge risk for a bitch to go through giving birth, just ask any breeder. No dog benefits from 'being a mother', and if you really believed that you would be keeping all the pups as you wouldn't want your girl to lose them eight weeks later.

2 - if you truly wanted your children to have this experience, you could have and should have taken them to the nearest rescue where they could watch any one of the pregnant homeless dogs giving birth and then nursing their pups.

3 - if you really cared about dogs, you would have researched breeding properly and DONE THE HEALTH TESTS that would ENSURE your girl's pups would not go blind/lame at a young age, nor develop CNM.

After all, if as you say you are doing this for your girl, then why aren't you worried how upset she'll be if any of her pups are ill when it could have been prevented.....?

Your 'logic' is absurd.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
> We did it because *we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother *and we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too. I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


Not a good enough reason IMO

I really wish there was some way of preventing "joe public" from breeding their animals - sadly, this will never happen.

I hope the pregnancy and delivery goes well for the bitch.

I also hope she only has one pup which the OP keeps - then has all their dogs neutered. Some hope


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

GARY have you ever visited a rescue? Do you know how many Labs are in rescues throughout the country? I do know as my own Lab was from the pound. I cannot tell you how many fab and loving Labs I heard about and met when I was looking for 'my' rescue dog.

With so many dogs in shelters, and being killed through lack of homes and rescue spaces, then frankly breeding because 'I wanted my dog to be a mum' is a truly sad 'reason' and if you're honest with yourself, surely you will realise that.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You're not the first, and sadly you're not the last, who thinks this is a *good* reason for breeding. I would reiterate my previous advice about pups, please have them KC registered, and endorse them as you register them so that others can't conduct the same experiment. That might sound harsh, but as has been pointed out, there are hundreds of Labradors in rescue, there really is no need to add to the number. 

I haven't got the breed record supplements in front of me, but I'm guessing there were at least 25,000 Labradors registered last year, and I remember not so many years ago, that figure was 55,000 puppies registered. Now double that figure because there will be probably the same amount of pups born unregistered. Now do you get some idea of the scale of the problem, that just breeding one litter, multiplied by many thousands, adds up to a huge number of puppies being born year on year. 

If you do learn one thing from this whole experience, I really hope you understand why *just* having a litter for the experience is neither fair on your bitch, or thoughtful when it comes to the huge number of dogs *just* being bred for the sake of it. Well that's two things, but I hope you do take the comments in the right context.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
> *We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother and we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too.* I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


:frown2::frown2::frown2::frown2:

While you're at it, why not get her up at the table to enjoy a meal with the family, or book her driving lessons, maybe take her hang gliding. Might as well, seeing as you have already anthropomorphised her by assuming she wants to have babies.

I'm sure the children will enjoy the experience all the more if it includes the gritty realism of a long labour, a caesarian birth or stillborn puppies. Let's hope you're lucky & don't have to go through that sort of horror


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
> *We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother *and we wanted the experience we are a large family and* the children will enjoy this experience too.* I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


Christ, you really do know nothing, do you?

Clearly you haven't hip scored or elbow scored your dogs because you would know exactly what scores they had. Vet checks are worthless, you need a proper BVA test done. Yet another headdesk moment.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

OP, I know that you came here looking for advice, and I know some of these posts have probably got your hackles up. But you must understand that breeding isn't and shouldn't be something done "just because". That is what gets the majority of us up in arms. How are you going to guarantee your dogs don't end up in rescue themselves in the future? Endorsing their pedigrees as Sleeping_Lion suggested is a very good idea...will prevent the unscrupulous from wanting to breed on and make money on KC registered pups anyway. You also MUST have a return policy throughout the life of your puppies. New owner can't keep the puppy at what ever stage in their life and you will take the puppy back and rehome yourself. That is the actions of a responsible breeder, someone who cares about where their puppies end up. Breeding isn't just about producing puppies and never seeing them or hearing from the new owners again. 

You haven't put anyone's mind at rest here that you have the best intentions for your dog and puppies. Can you confirm what plans you do have in mind for the future, how you are going to vet new owners? You're not planning on advertising pups in the newspaper or online are you? If this is a well thought out mating you'd have homes lined up already, well in advance of the puppies being born.

What's done is done now. Are you breeding for the right reasons? No. But if you take the sensible and responsible decisions from here on out, it will be the best thing you can do for the future of the puppies you are responsible for. 

Also, bear in mind that if anything goes wrong with your bitch during whelping you could be looking at a hefty vet bill and the very real chance of losing your bitch and/or the puppies themselves. I'm sure that would be one "experience" your children really could have done without.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
> We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother and we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too. I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


Once your children have witness the joys of the birth etc, pop alone to the nearest dog pound and let them witness the strays and surrenders waiting on Death row to either find a family or rescue to give them a reprieve, allow them to watch those that don't get saved being PTS that's the reality of lot of ill thought out matings.. I have everything firmly crossed that you bitch hasn't caught, and that you go ahead with getting her spayed at a suitable time...

Losing puppies and sometimes bitches is the reality of birth, complications are a reality of birth, health problems are a reality of un health tested parents, dogs being born to a life time of pain through bad hips and elbows or losing their sight is a reality of bringing a litter in to the world, struggling to find homes is a reality, because people like us will tell responsible people to stay away from litters like yours. You will have to be willing to take a pup back at any stage of their life another reality of being a breeder...

Your dog doesn't need to experience having a litter, it's an experience that is not needed for any reason other than a human wanting pups.... If you want your children to experience it have another child yourself or let them wait to chose to have children themslves.

Reality of a litter isn't all sweet and fluffy... What life lesson are you teaching your children? Good luck explaining to them why the puppies they have loved and played with for 8 weeks are now being given away to other people, that's of course assuming that they make it to 8 weeks........


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Meezey said:


> *Once your children have witness the joys of the birth etc, pop alone to the nearest dog pound and let them witness the strays and surrenders waiting on Death row to either find a family or rescue to give them a reprieve, allow them to watch those that don't get saved being PTS that's the reality of lot of ill thought out matings.. *I have everything firmly crossed that you bitch hasn't caught, and that you go ahead with getting her spayed at a suitable time...
> 
> Losing puppies and sometimes bitches is the reality of birth, complications are a reality of birth, health problems are a reality of un health tested parents, dogs being born to a life time of pain through bad hips and elbows or losing their sight is a reality of bringing a litter in to the world, struggling to find homes is a reality, because people like us will tell responsible people to stay away from litters like yours. You will have to be willing to take a pup back at any stage of their life another reality of being a breeder...
> 
> ...


Excellent idea. And while you're at it go and pay a visit to your nearest orthopedic animal hospital and see what the dogs and their owners have to go through when their beloved pet ends up with hip or elbow problems (you don't honestly think we believed that you'd had both your dogs hip and elbow scored did you?) Maybe you'll be lucky and you and your children can go and visit the homes and see the hard work the owner has to go through to rehabilitate their dog following surgery!

Quite honestly, your reasons for breeding are ridiculous and selfish. Your bitch doesn't need or want to experience pregnancy - you are doing it for y our own selfish reasons. And I'm sure your children will enjoy the experience of losing any puppies and possibly even their beloved bitch! It's not as uncommon as you think, especially with owners that are so lacking in knowledge.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Couldn't you just have taken your children to watch a lambing?  Cheaper, easier and just as effective at putting your kids off ever having their own kids  (That's how my mother traumatized my brother for life, thoroughly negating any possibility of becoming a grandmother :ihih


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Is it still half term?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I suppose the question I have for Gary is:

Having read all the posts in this thread, if your girl turns out not to be pregnant, will you be trying to breed her again?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I hope they realise after all the replies, that there is a lot more to consider when breeding.

Just as an aside, I've seen a call for emergency foster carers for Labrador welfare come up across my FB live feed.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I understand how most people on petforums believe that only ethical breeders of purebred dogs who do health testing etc should be breeding dogs. I worry though that puppy farmers are even more successful because of this view and that caring pet dog owners should be able to consider breeding their pet dogs, as pet dogs, whether they're pure-bred or not, if the market does need fewer dogs, it needs fewer dogs from puppy farms, not fewer dogs from loving homes. Health testing where available and indicated, yes, having a shown proven dog, to improve lines, not necessarily. Show breeders, as we all know, have managed with or without health testing to breed caricatures of dogs that struggle with every day life, yet still do well in the show ring. In fact do well in the show ring because of their deformities, not despite.

NOT ALL. Just because I criticise some breeds and showing, it doesn't mean I mean every single person who took their dog to a pet show and won prettiest bitch, or even every single person who won a ticket to crufts. However, the guy down the road with the much loved friendly, fit and healthy bitch, who wants to breed should be advised and encouraged imo. It's one less litter sold from a puppy farm.

What do you mean mating isn't natural for dogs?

Should this be the norm? 

If the girl in the OP isn't pregnant, then I see no reason why the OP shouldn't take a step back, look further into it, get necessary health testing, check he's not inbreeding and the pups have the odds in their favour of being healthy dogs and then start again. Too many labradors/dogs in general in rescues isn't imo a good enough reason for someone decent to not breed.

Clearly the OP isn't experienced and needs to put more time, thought and care into the process, but that doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't breed at all imo.

It's neglectful, unethical, greedy, puppy farmers who should be not breeding. They supply the pet market with a far higher number of dogs than are in rescues.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Elles said:


> I understand how most people on petforums believe that only ethical breeders of purebred dogs who do health testing etc should be breeding dogs. I worry though that puppy farmers are even more successful because of this view and that caring pet dog owners should be able to consider breeding their pet dogs, as pet dogs, whether they're pure-bred or not, if the market does need fewer dogs, it needs fewer dogs from puppy farms, not fewer dogs from loving homes. Health testing where available and indicated, yes, having a shown proven dog, to improve lines, not necessarily. Show breeders, as we all know, have managed with or without health testing to breed caricatures of dogs that struggle with every day life, yet still do well in the show ring. In fact do well in the show ring because of their deformities, not despite.
> 
> NOT ALL. Just because I criticise some breeds and showing, it doesn't mean I mean every single person who took their dog to a pet show and won prettiest bitch, or even every single person who won a ticket to crufts. However, the guy down the road with the much loved friendly, fit and healthy bitch, who wants to breed should be advised and encouraged imo. It's one less litter sold from a puppy farm.
> 
> ...


BYB's are just as guilty for lining their own pockets and producing puppies of which no thought or care has gone into. Just look at the vast majority of online ads...most, if not all, are from BYB's. I see relatively few puppy farm litters advertised. Most of those have glossy websites and talk the talk...conning the gullible public into purchasing a pup. BYB's in most respects breed for similar reasons as Gary has mentioned - "because we want a puppy to keep or "because my kids wanted the experience" etc etc and are generally more naïve in their breeding then the puppy farmers. But that doesn't make them immune from education. Anyone who plans on breeding, whether it be your top notch breeder, or the guy down the road owes it to the dogs they claim to love to do everything right. Settling for anything less is selfish and irresponsible. It's all well and good wanting to breed your much loved pet, I'm sure we could all make arguments for why our dogs would be such great parents, and are good ambassadors for their breed...whatever. The point is there is more to breeding than sticking two dogs together and doing so because you thought it would be a nice idea. As I said in my last post, how is Gary going to prevent his puppies from ending up in rescue? Do you think it's acceptable for him to bring puppies into the world HE is responsible for without no concern for their future welfare? Of course, a good breeder will have a returns policy. What do the BYB's have in place to guarantee where their pups end up?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother.....


Dogs are not like people. Bitches that have never had pups do not think wistfully of what it might have been like. Even if all goes as well as possible this "experience" will be of absolutely no benefit to your girl at all.

Plenty of bitches do not enjoy motherhood at all. The mother of my youngest dog did not take to motherhood at all, she fed the pups with great reluctance but that was it. Given the choice she'd probably not have bothered with them at all after the birth. Luckily the breeder had an older bitch who was keen to 'mother' the pups, you won't have that luxury should the same happen to you.



> ....we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too.


A bitch having pups is not a spectator sport, I hope you're not planning on allowing your children to watch the birth itself. It is not fair on the bitch to have more people than absolutely necessary hanging over her when she's so vulnerable and quite possibly stressed.

Will your children still enjoy the experience if your bitch needs an emergency c-section? If your bitch dies? If one/some/all of the pups die? If your bitch kills pups either intentionally or accidentally? Will it still be a fun family activity if the bitch rejects the pups and you need to feed a potentially large litter every two hours day and night? These are all things that could potentially happen, the birth and rearing of pups isn't like a Disney film, things can and do go wrong even for the most experienced and conscientious breeders. Right now there is a thread in this section where a bitch has pre-eclampsia, a potentially fatal condition that develops and progresses very quickly. Would you know how to spot the symptoms early?

Bringing a whole litter of pups into a world already overflowing with perfectly lovely dogs that nobody wants for no reason other than it being an "experience" for the bitch and your children is the height of selfishness. What happens once the experience is over? Will you be happy to take responsibility for any of these pups in the future should their owners no longer be able to care for them? Or will you be happy for them to join the ranks of labs in rescue waiting for homes?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think quite a few pretend to be home breeders and are actually puppy farmer sale foster homes. Then you have the serial puppy buyers and the people who think puppies are stuffed toys and are shocked when they discover they poop, pee and cry. There's all kinds of problems on online ads. 

But yes, I'd agree, home breeders have the potential to learn, puppy farmers and some BYB's don't need educating, they already know plenty well enough and choose the money, they need to be hung out to dry.

I just think it's maybe not as black and white as it seems. 

Breeding for the experience, the cute puppies and for the children is absolutely fine imo. just as fine as breeding for the show ring, or for a job to do, or for a pup to keep yourself. So long as there's a mentor, help, advice, health testing, back-up plans, money for vets, support for the lifetime of the pups, especially support for the lifetime of the pups barring disaster, care taken when rehoming etc. an understanding that all may not go to plan and the bitch may even die, leaving you to hand rear a dozen pups.. No I'm not about to breed my girl. 

What breed, if any and rainbows and unicorns reasons behind the choice to breed don't matter imo. It's what a person does with that choice.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Do you know why that is nonsense?
> 
> 1 - it's a huge risk for a bitch to go through giving birth, just ask any breeder. No dog benefits from 'being a mother', and if you really believed that you would be keeping all the pups as you wouldn't want your girl to lose them eight weeks later.
> 
> ...


So true OBAYL. When women get pregnant, I wonder how many of them do it 'for the wonder of birth'. From my knowledge of child birth it aint all its cracked up to be, and god forbid someone else tried to force that on me!! I suppose it's easier to see it in such romantic terms when you can just offload the progeny within 8 weeks though, assuming they don't die, fail to strive, get rejected, get suffocated, arent still births etc.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

I'll stop posting now as I said I'd take everything on board what's been said but what's been done is done. If she is pregnant then we will be vetting all of the homes


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Well you have that wrong as we know that there isn't much money in it after all the vets bills care etc of mother and puppies.
> We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother and we wanted the experience we are a large family and the *children will enjoy this experience too*. I know most of you will put negative posts about what I've wrote but at the end of the day I just come on here for advice on if she is pregnant. She does look a little fatter at the sides but we still aren't sure


I do not breed dogs - Never ever ever would I either, I leave it to the good breeders!

But I do breed cats, pedigree registered fully health tested and researched studs to go with my girls, and all kittens neutered before leaving me  etc etc

What I wanted to ask was, why would your entire family be in the room to witness this birth? Mum would be stressed and scared being her first time, she wouldn't want a large family standing round watching her at this time, mum should be kept calm in her own birthing area.

Also do you wish your family to witness you reviving any puppies that appear stillborn? And do you know how to do this? I had to revive 2 kittens that appeared to be born dead in my current litter, I worked on one for 4 minutes until she finally let out a scream, I researched for YEARS AND YEARS Before I had my first litter and one of the first things I learned was how to revive a kitten at birth. Do you know how to help mum if she cant pass a puppy? This comes from research and knowledge. Or have a pup die in your hand at birth? Not exactly something that I would have wanted to witness as a child NOR as a adult 

Can you take all of this time off work - I assume you have built up holidays and mum cant be left alone at all!! You must sleep with her, I hope you realise this? Do you know how to hand rear if mum has no milk without it potentially harming or killing a puppy? How to raise a litter correctly?

I found this page helpful on researching our future pup (still years off of buying but I have breeders on my list!) 
Merjuke German Shepherds index

Will you sell your pups with contracts? You will take back any pups and of course all the health tests that labs need? How will you vet potential new owners and answer any questions they have? So much more goes into breeding they just mating and letting them have pups


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> I'll stop posting now as I said I'd take everything on board what's been said but *what's been done is done*. If she is pregnant then we will be vetting all of the homes


Going by the dates of your first post I believe your girl is still within the time frame for having the Alizin or 'mismate' jab which would end the pregnancy. It may also be possible to have an emergency spay done.

You do have options other than continuing with this litter just for the sake of it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Good advice to keep the children away for a while and to keep mum quiet when she's having pups. It's also essential when the pups are a little older and the children are introduced to supervise any children/puppy interactions. But, it's a good thing when young pups and children are together and the pups are in the home. It's part of healthy socialising and something else to consider if you don't want pups you breed to end up in rescue. So if your plan is successful and you do end up with a healthy bitch and a litter of cute puppies

Socialising a Litter | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

It's more work to have to consider before thinking about breeding, if she isn't pregnant or you do decide to terminate.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> I'll stop posting now as I said I'd take everything on board what's been said but what's been done is done. If she is pregnant then we will be vetting all of the homes


I don't think you should stop posting. I for one would like to hear an update on how everything goes with your girl. Don't discard what has been said here, or go off in a huff because you haven't got the advice you wanted to hear. We are all dog lovers here, and we are passionate about what we love. I agree that what is done is done, but you need to be able to make the right decisions from here on out, and rather than ignore the very relevant questions I, and others here have been asking, it would be nice to hear what plans you do have in place for the future so as to guarantee the future welfare of your puppies. You are going to vet the homes, but do you know what questions to ask? Where do you plan on advertising? Will you take a puppy back in the future no matter what? Do you plan on remaining close to your puppy buyers?


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

ut: :rolleyes5: is all i have to say


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elles said:


> I understand how most people on petforums believe that only ethical breeders of purebred dogs who do health testing etc should be breeding dogs. I worry though that puppy farmers are even more successful because of this view and that caring pet dog owners should be able to consider breeding their pet dogs, as pet dogs, whether they're pure-bred or not, if the market does need fewer dogs, it needs fewer dogs from puppy farms, not fewer dogs from loving homes. Health testing where available and indicated, yes, having a shown proven dog, to improve lines, not necessarily. Show breeders, as we all know, have managed with or without health testing to breed caricatures of dogs that struggle with every day life, yet still do well in the show ring. In fact do well in the show ring because of their deformities, not despite.
> 
> NOT ALL. Just because I criticise some breeds and showing, it doesn't mean I mean every single person who took their dog to a pet show and won prettiest bitch, or even every single person who won a ticket to crufts. However, the guy down the road with the much loved friendly, fit and healthy bitch, who wants to breed should be advised and encouraged imo. It's one less litter sold from a puppy farm.
> 
> ...


How many dogs do you know that mate regularly? Most dogs have to be supervised during mating, yes, they could just mate and tie *naturally* but it's not something they know how to do, they are just acting on hormones. There's a lot of handling them into place, holding them steady, and making sure after they've tied that they don't become frightened and possibly injure each other. The vast majority of bitches never see the dog used with them before or after, they're whipped off to a strange place when their hormones are reeling, introduced to a complete stranger and very often their hormones are saying yes, and their head is saying what the chuff!!

And why are they whipped off to a complete stranger? To try and breed healthy pups, with good conformation and maintain genetic diversity. I could use a local dog with my bitches, but why limit myself when the best dog could be at the other end of the country, or even abroad?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> How many dogs do you know that mate regularly?


I don't know them personally, but puppy farm dogs. 

Shame really. I'd agree with the artificial insemination of healthy dogs that would be capable of mating naturally, but who don't have a mate. I'd like them to be socialised and meet up regularly before they're bred if it's 'live cover' as the norm and yes, I'd like them to have a choice. :blushing:

I worked on a stud farm (horses) and live cover wasn't particularly pleasant. My friend had an arab stallion who ran with his mares over a huge acreage, much better for them imo. Though most horse breeders want to be closely involved and not 'risk' their animals too and would be horrified at the thought.

I suppose it comes down to individuals. No-one particularly worries about the ponies on Dartmoor breeding naturally, but if they die, or are injured who cares. No-one generally. No more than they care about wildlife breeding. When an individual dog is precious to their owner, for whatever reason, they'd want to limit risk. I don't see that as mating being unnatural for dogs though, that would be poorly conformed bulldogs. In the OP's case, from what I can gather, the dogs live together, so it would be more natural and the meeting a stranger at the other end of the country wouldn't apply.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elles said:


> I don't know them personally, but puppy farm dogs.
> 
> Shame really. I'd agree with the artificial insemination of healthy dogs that would be capable of mating naturally, but who don't have a mate. I'd like them to be socialised and meet up regularly before they're bred if it's 'live cover' as the norm and yes, I'd like them to have a choice. :blushing:
> 
> ...


But how many of those puppy farmed dogs are possibly injured, and if they are, they're left to die?

I remember when I was discussing progesterone testing with a vet who I have since left, who assured me that I should take Tau to see the stud dog on days 11 and 13, and they would just get on with it, after all, farm dogs procreate all the time and whelp under sheds! And I thought we were supposed to be moving forwards with animal welfare, needless to say, I never went back.

I'm afraid my girls will never get a choice with any dog I choose, and are very unlikely to meet them either. I have been looking at a dog in Germany for Rhuna, but given how hot she is, and she literally shakes at gundog training and is on the verge of exploding with excitement, I may well use something more *showy* this time round, to try and keep a lid on the working side a bit, possibly head in that direction another generation from now. Looking at Zasa, I know which dog I have my eye on, and it's a five or six hour drive, which I'm not prepared to do just so Zasa could decide if she *approves* of my choice.

Actually, in the case of the OP, it's less natural for dogs living together to mate successfully, it can be quite difficult to persuade them. My concern with the OP is their ignorance of the health testing, how colour genetics work, probably a lack of understanding about how conformation can affect health, and also the ignorance about just how this sort of breeding is contributing overall towards an overpopulation of dogs in general; that's without going into temperament, which is absolutely vital, and ability. I do hope they take the comments on board, and should they go ahead, will use the endorsements when registering pups, and look on the KC website for an example of a contract of sale to use with the pups.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Elles said:


> I worked on a stud farm (horses) and live cover wasn't particularly pleasant.


Animals mating either in the wild or left to their own devices is generally not particularly pleasant. It's not nice and gentle but more often abrupt and really rather brutal.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> But how many of those puppy farmed dogs are possibly injured, and if they are, they're left to die?


Hence the sad face smiley and kinda what I meant.

I'm not saying it's logistically possible, just that it's a shame. Of course that's not to say I'd prefer to mate my dog to her brother, or the sick inbred next door, just that it's a shame that to find genetic diversity and a suitable mate if I was going to breed her I might have to travel a few hundred miles and shove her at a stranger. One can wish for rainbows and unicorns even if they're a myth. 

I think natural is more your farm dog scenting an in season bitch from a dozen miles away, jumping a fence or two and then jumping on her if I'm really honest. I think they really care less than we think. 

It's probably the journey and having strange people and scents about that's more off-putting. :ihih:


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Horses have a ritual and are sociable. Hanging onto a frightened, hobbled mare, often twitched, with no idea what of what is about to happen, is what is unpleasant. My friend's stallion courted his mares and they were keener than he was. 

I'm not saying it's all champagne, flowers and kisses.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Animals mating either in the wild or left to their own devices is generally not particularly pleasant. It's not nice and gentle but more often abrupt and really rather brutal.


You ought to see Bearded dragons mating naturally! Often the female has blood on her neck where he's clung on to her with his teeth!

Why do people have a Walt Disney view of animal mating? It's something driven by instinct. Humans (and some apes I believe?) are the only creatures who do it for enjoyment. Otherwise it's normally just something they are driven to do by hormones. And in the wild, a female in heat is likely to be mated whether she wants to or not. And that could be called rape - or even gang rape if there were more males about.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Elles said:


> I understand how most people on petforums believe that only ethical breeders of *purebred* dogs who do health testing etc should be breeding dogs. I worry though that puppy farmers are even more successful because of this view and that caring pet dog owners should be able to consider breeding their pet dogs, as pet dogs, whether they're pure-bred or not, if the market does need fewer dogs, it needs fewer dogs from puppy farms, not fewer dogs from loving homes. Health testing where available and indicated, yes, having a shown proven dog, to improve lines, not necessarily. Show breeders, as we all know, have managed with or without health testing to breed caricatures of dogs that struggle with every day life, yet still do well in the show ring. In fact do well in the show ring because of their deformities, not despite.
> 
> NOT ALL. Just because I criticise some breeds and showing, it doesn't mean I mean every single person who took their dog to a pet show and won prettiest bitch, or even every single person who won a ticket to crufts. However, the guy down the road with the much loved friendly, fit and healthy bitch, who wants to breed should be advised and encouraged imo. It's one less litter sold from a puppy farm.
> 
> ...




Nothing to do with being 'purebred'. The OP has Labs, this is a 'pure' breed.

Frankly I would rather see a mating between two health tested crossbreeds, than a mating between two UNtested pure breeds.

The key thing is that parents are tested BEFORE mating.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But how many of those puppy farmed dogs are possibly injured, and if they are, they're left to die?
> 
> I remember when I was discussing progesterone testing with a vet who I have since left, who assured me that I should take Tau to see the stud dog on days 11 and 13, and they would just get on with it, after all, farm dogs procreate all the time and whelp under sheds! And I thought we were supposed to be moving forwards with animal welfare, needless to say, I never went back.
> 
> ...


For one bizarre micro second, I thought you were referring to Rhuna's gorgeous looks :ihih:


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Walt Disney? 

I don't remember seeing any breeding in Little Mermaid. 

:001_tt2:

What I was describing as unpleasant was the human involvement, nothing to do with how brutal we might consider animal mating is or not and most definitely nothing to do with Walt Disney. 

Whether animals enjoy their involvement in the process or not, is not down to us to decide. We can't possibly know. But given that I've known mares break into a stallion pen when in season, they're more likely to break into him than he in with them, there's a possibility they're quite happy with it in a more natural environment. One thing I do know, a hobbled, twitched mare, desperately fighting to get away from the people hanging onto her, isn't happy about anything, whether there's a stallion involved or not.

Not all people on petforums OBAYL, but I do believe that many think only purebred dogs proven in the show ring should be bred, or at least are the only dogs who can be ethically bred, or are likely to be. The OP has unproven, untested labs and I would agree that he would be best to take advice, look further into it and get his dogs health tested if he does continue with his breeding plans. 

Or if it is too late, to put some hours into researching the best way to go from here and what he needs to know now. I wouldn't like to see him scared off, that wouldn't be good for anyone, man nor beast and there are worse reasons for breeding.


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

I see the OP has gone off in a huff as he didn't like what he heard.
Taking the "what's done is done" approach is just lazy as he could take his dog to get the termination injection but no that would be far too easy!
I expect these poor pups will turn up in rescue at some stage ...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Elles said:


> Walt Disney?
> 
> I don't remember seeing any breeding in Little Mermaid.
> 
> ...


Don't think that's true at all, but seems to be a popular opinion of those who don't understand.

Breeding dogs is not natural, hundreds of years of breeding dogs selectively have seen to that. If you want to go down the 'natural' route, then what you are saying is that you want one type of dog - a medium sized dog likely to look similar to a dingo, because that's what the result of 'natural' mating would be eventually. Man has created breeds though selective breeding so a 'natural' approach is risky. There is a lot that should be considered and researched before breeding a dog and bitch. Simply putting a male and female dog together because you love them and want to experience a litter is irresponsible and selfish, regardless of whether those two dogs are the same breed or not.

I'm not sure what's worse - breeding for money or selfishly putting your pet through a risky pregnancy and breeding for your own personal amusement and that of your family - both are equally bad IMO


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Elles said:


> Walt Disney?
> 
> I don't remember seeing any breeding in Little Mermaid.
> 
> :001_tt2:


Well I'm not sure how mer-people reproduce... caviar, anyone?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> I'll stop posting now as I said I'd take everything on board what's been said but what's been done is done. If she is pregnant then we will be vetting all of the homes


Alizin can be used up to day 45 to end the pregnancy.

Please stick around. We all want to know how things go with the birth and the litter, and there are some experienced breeders on here if you run into any problems and need some advice.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It's not necessarily irresponsible or selfish. On the one hand we're warned that our dogs will breed if they as much as look at each other and should all be neutered, preferably at 6 weeks, on the other hand we're told it's so unnatural it's difficult to get them to breed at all and very unsafe. 

There is so much information and misinformation out there, is it surprising that someone who buys a puppy, sees her grow up and believes she's the perfect dog, thinks it would be nice to have puppies from her too? Naive maybe, but not necessarily selfish.

I don't see anything wrong with a medium sized dog who looks like a dingo, there's too much emphasis on how dogs should look imo. I can think of a lot of breeds who would much rather look like a dingo and a number of breeds that are suffering unnecessarily because of their conformation that should be allowed to just die out in my opinion.

By natural, I'm meaning dogs that can mate naturally, in response to SL's post, as opposed to caesareans and AI, not natural selection, which is a completely different thing. If the dogs can only manage with humans pulling and poking them about, then I'm not sure that's a good thing anyway tbh. Supervising in case something goes wrong, as something might go wrong on the odd occasion I can understand, but needing to be closely involved as our dogs can't manage on their own? Hmmm.

That would be a different thread of course. It would appear that these dogs have managed it without help and more than once.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

I'am not going to argue and that doesn't mean I agree or think your right. 
We don't actually know if she is pregnant and just to put it straight our children wouldn't be watching a birth if anything it would be my wife and eldest daughter only there incase we are needed. 
We have been reading up and from reading your comments this has helped even if some have been a bit rude. 
We know her season started on the 26th April but unsure if we take the pregnancy from then or when they first mated


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> We know her season started on the 26th April but unsure if we take the pregnancy from then or when they first mated


From the date/s of mating, as my first post explained.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> I'am not going to argue and that doesn't mean I agree or think your right.
> We don't actually know if she is pregnant and just to put it straight our children wouldn't be watching a birth if anything it would be my wife and eldest daughter only there incase we are needed.
> We have been reading up and from reading your comments this has helped even if some have been a bit rude.
> We know her season started on the 26th April but unsure if we take the pregnancy from then or when they first mated


Make sure you have your vet's number on speed dial as your wife and daughter would offer very little in the way of real help in an an emergency.

Still haven't answered the questions I asked though. Which is why, as I stated in my first post, you've done little to convince people you have the best intentions.

Oh well. The info is here for you to read now. Hopefully you'll do right by your dog and puppies and your bitch has a smooth pregnancy ( if pregnant ) and delivery.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you they did do it on a number of occasions but we was with them watching at all times so we aren't as bad as some have made us to look. Our female dog was always the one egging our male on. He's younger than her could be why


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> Thank you they did do it on a number of occasions but we was with them watching at all times so we aren't as bad as some have made us to look. Our female dog was always the one egging our male on. He's younger than her could be why


Gary you do get that if we sound critical, it's because we care about the dogs and pups, right?

I''m sure you would be gutted if heaven forfend any of your girl's pups went blind by the age of three, or was lame due to the pain of hip or elbow dysplasia?

Or didn't make it past the first year because of CNM?

These things can be prevented IF breeders health test the parents prior to mating. And you *are* a breeder if your girl has pups.

Please stay on the forum, you will get so much good advice.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> We know her season started on the 26th April but unsure if we take the pregnancy from then or when they first mated


Actually it's neither. The pregnancy is measured from the timing of ovulation, plus 2 days for the ova to mature. So, to be truly accurate, you would need to know when her LH surge was. This can be identified from progesterone testing, but it's too late for that now. Sounds like you'll have to wing it a bit.

As I said, I think you should stick around. There's a wealth of knowledge on here from people who know a lot more about breeding than you or I, and you can count on them if you hit problems.

Of course, as Dogloverlou has said, you also need to be prepared to phone the vet so make sure you know what all the OOH arrangements are.

Now is the time to read like ****, to familiarise yourself with normal and abnormal whelping as much as you can before the birth. This is something that takes years of experience and you've got to do a crash course. Hell, I don't know all there is to know about whelping.

The thing is, in my job, we end up helping a lot of BYBs and families who have just bred their pets. The experienced breeders tend to need us less and, when they do, they tend to know more than I do so I am guided by them to some extent.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> The thing is, in my job, we end up helping a lot of BYBs and families who have just bred their pets. *The experienced breeders tend to need us less and, when they do, they tend to know more than I do* so I am guided by them to some extent.


How refreshing to actually hear it said by a vet!


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Do you actually think she's pregnant?
I know you can't answer that but from what I've said.
We have taken on board all of your comments and i'am glad I found this forum
As we will prepare better than we would of done.
Vets number will be logged into the phone.
The first time they mated was on the 2nd-3rd day on her season then after that they did it pretty much every day we did separate them as our girl dog wanted it all the time and our boy dog didn't want to


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> How refreshing to actually hear it said by a vet!


No point in denying it, lol. A few years in a classroom can't compare to years of experience. The best ones bring their knowledge in with their dogs but also respect what I have to say as well. It's a two-way street, isn't it?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> Do you actually think she's pregnant?
> I know you can't answer that but from what I've said.


Honestly? Absolutely no idea. Not one iota of an idea.

She needs a scan.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I would assume she is pregnant, and enquire about having her scanned to confirm whether or not she is at your vets - they will not be able to give you an accurate number of pups, just confirm whether she is pregnant or not. Ask for her to be scanned stood up, rather than rolling her over, it's less stressful for her.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How many dogs do you know that mate regularly? Most dogs have to be supervised during mating, yes, they could just mate and tie *naturally* but it's not something they know how to do, they are just acting on hormones. There's a lot of handling them into place, holding them steady, and making sure after they've tied that they don't become frightened and possibly injure each other. The vast majority of bitches never see the dog used with them before or after, they're whipped off to a strange place when their hormones are reeling, introduced to a complete stranger and very often their hormones are saying yes, and their head is saying what the chuff!!


What a very strange attitude. Plenty of dogs mate regularly and totally naturally. It used to be very common to have dogs wandering around mating any bitch that came their way. And oddly enough dogs do not 'know how to do' anything. They act on instinct and do it. They chase rabbits because of instinct , they eat their food because of instinct and they mate for the same reason.
Unfortunately a lot of stud dogs are not allowed to court their bitches or do anything naturally so they have to be encouraged and guided in - but that is most certainly not necessary if they were allowed to get on with it naturally. It is only because the stud dog owner is being commercial over it instead of allowing the dogs to behave naturally.

As Elles said the same thing often happens with horses and it is horrible to see whereas mares turned out with a stallion will be courted and mated when they are ready, not held down by humans and 'raped'.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> What a very strange attitude. Plenty of dogs mate regularly and totally naturally. It used to be very common to have dogs wandering around mating any bitch that came their way. And oddly enough dogs do not 'know how to do' anything. They act on instinct and do it. They chase rabbits because of instinct , they eat their food because of instinct and they mate for the same reason.
> Unfortunately a lot of stud dogs are not allowed to court their bitches or do anything naturally so they have to be encouraged and guided in - but that is most certainly not necessary if they were allowed to get on with it naturally. It is only because the stud dog owner is being commercial over it instead of allowing the dogs to behave naturally.
> 
> As Elles said the same thing often happens with horses and it is horrible to see whereas mares turned out with a stallion will be courted and mated when they are ready, not held down by humans and 'raped'.


Yep, have observed a natural mating, with several males, in the middle of a play ground, where the dog was injured and a huge fight broke out over the bitch. Lovely and natural!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Ooer missus, the alternative to holding a bitch still, guiding the dog and helping, isn't a pack of dogs fighting over a bitch in a playground. :nono:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elles said:


> Ooer missus, the alternative to holding a bitch still, guiding the dog and helping, isn't a pack of dogs fighting over a bitch in a playground. :nono:


That's as *natural* as you can get, allowing them to get on with it, without any human interference though.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's as *natural* as you can get, allowing them to get on with it, without any human interference though.


But would you stand by and watch a terrier get literally sh*gged to death by a lot of bigger dogs?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> But would you stand by and watch a terrier get literally sh*gged to death by a lot of bigger dogs?


No, I wouldn't, this was some years ago and to be quite honest, I wouldn't have had a clue what to do. These were dogs owned by the local residents that had obviously been let out to just go and do their business, and the poor bitch had been mobbed, but all *natural*.

Personally, I'd prefer an unnatural mating, if that means choosing the dog, and making sure they don't injure each other.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Well the point I was trying to make isn't that they should be left to fight it out in a playground, but that if the dogs can't manage to complete the act without human assistance, is that a good thing that should be accepted? I'm not sure it is. When I say let the dogs get on with it, I don't mean turn them loose in the wild, I mean light the blue touchpaper and stand well back. 

If the firework fizzles out, then maybe it's a dud and you'd have to consider if it was worth repeating, or relighting. 

I'm of the opinion though that dogs that can't physically breed shouldn't be bred from, so it's short step from there to the belief that dogs that can't mentally breed shouldn't be bred from either. Or at least the breeders should be setting it up a bit better, soft lights and music, not bdsm. :devil:

I'm not against a little assistance if required and consideration for the dog's well being, especially if they are inexperienced, but I really don't think that people should dive in and take for granted that their help is needed. I think it should be rare not the norm.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I get what your saying, but a lot of matings are *assisted* even if just a little bit. And they're certainly not natural in the sense that they really are contrived, ie driven to the other end of the country, but this is done (hopefully) for good reason, ie this is a better match for the bitch than other dogs, which might be closer. 

I wouldn't want a dog that was physically incapable of mating, and self whelping to breed on from either. I think some breeds are right on the edge of that, with a small minority of breeders pushing for healthier reproduction. 

If I had a bitch that really was unhappy enough to cause injury to herself or the dog, I think I would struggle greatly, particularly with Labradors, to justify forcing the issue, because there's always the option of buying a pup in. Personally, for rare breeds I would prefer to see AI used more often to help increase genetic diversity, as long as there were litters of naturally whelped pups in the mix as well. 

The day I have to throw scatter cushions about and play Barry White, is the day I hope someone tells me I really have gone too far, and need to get a grip!!


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We didn't Assist our dogs in any way it was our female dog that was egging our male dog on and every time she saw our male dog she started. Our female dog is 2 and a half and our male dog is 1


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

You still haven't seemed to answer whether or not your dogs have had the relevant health tests though


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yep, have observed a natural mating, with several males, in the middle of a play ground, where the dog was injured and a huge fight broke out over the bitch. Lovely and natural!


That is natural. A lot of things that happen in nature are very cruel and not what we would choose at all. On the other hand we can control it up to a point but still allow the mating to be natural. I have had matings both ways and though the natural way was frustrating because I had to hang around for ages and not take my eye off them the 'assisted' matings did not sit very well with me.



Elles said:


> Well the point I was trying to make isn't that they should be left to fight it out in a playground, but that if the dogs can't manage to complete the act without human assistance, is that a good thing that should be accepted? I'm not sure it is. When I say let the dogs get on with it, I don't mean turn them loose in the wild, I mean light the blue touchpaper and stand well back.
> 
> If the firework fizzles out, then maybe it's a dud and you'd have to consider if it was worth repeating, or relighting.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> The thing is, in my job, we end up helping a lot of BYBs and families who have just bred their pets. *The experienced breeders tend to need us less and, when they do, they tend to know more than I do *so I am guided by them to some extent.


That is SO true!!!!



Garys2201 said:


> Do you actually think she's pregnant?
> I know you can't answer that but from what I've said.
> We have taken on board all of your comments and i'am glad I found this forum
> As we will prepare better than we would of done.
> ...


Why did they mate so much?

Question on dog mating - I thought from reading on here breeders only did 1 maybe 2 mating's?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

BlueJay said:


> You still haven't seemed to answer whether or not your dogs have had the relevant health tests though


I think we can safely assume they haven't had any tests done. Judging by the appalling level of ignorance (letting them mate any time from day 2) I honestly don't see the OP as caring about anything apart from seeing if the bitch is pregnant.

I'm going to bow out now cos I've never seen such ignorance and lack of preparation before letting dogs mate before on this forum, not to mention that the OP still only seems interested in if they are pregnant.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> That is SO true!!!!
> 
> Why did they mate so much?
> 
> Question on dog mating - I thought from reading on here breeders only did 1 maybe 2 mating's?


Yes, one, maybe two matings, two days apart.

-----------------------------------------

This thread is going around in circles, some posters are opposed to assisted matings, yet in reality, the vast majority of good breeders assist matings, supervise them, and are on hand to ensure nothing goes on. They don't leave their dogs to it and wander off leaving Barry White playing in the background.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, one, maybe two matings, two days apart.
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> This thread is going around in circles, some posters are opposed to assisted matings, yet in reality, the vast majority of good breeders assist matings, supervise them, and are on hand to ensure nothing goes on. They don't leave their dogs to it and wander off leaving Barry White playing in the background.


Thanks yes I Thought that, I wonder why they let them mate so much? No wonder the poor dog was tired and didn't want to mate anymore!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, one, maybe two matings, two days apart.
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> This thread is going around in circles, some posters are opposed to assisted matings, yet in reality, the vast majority of good breeders assist matings, supervise them, and are on hand to ensure nothing goes on. They don't leave their dogs to it and wander off leaving Barry White playing in the background.


Thanks! I'll cancel me order for Barry White CDs then. Although I suspect Bess is more a rock chick in any event!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Thanks! I'll cancel me order for Barry White CDs then. Although I suspect Bess is more a rock chick in any event!


Marvin Gaye's the way forward, anyway.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> Marvin Gaye's the way forward, anyway.


Oh for goodness sake! I'll be kicked off of Amazon if I keep changing my mind! 

I'll just have to explain to the stud owner that I heard it on the grapevine.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

They've had the tests I said in one of my first posts.
Her nipples don't look any different to normal she's been eating and wanting food more and wanted more attention and not so nutty she acts like a young puppy usually but I guess that could be coz she's getting older


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sorry if you've already said, but when did these matings take place?

How old is your bitch?


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## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Do you know why that is nonsense?
> 
> 1 - it's a huge risk for a bitch to go through giving birth, just ask any breeder. No dog benefits from 'being a mother', and if you really believed that you would be keeping all the pups as you wouldn't want your girl to lose them eight weeks later.
> 
> ...


Well Said , it breaks my heart this kinda thing , so many dogs pts every week because someone decides they want there bitch to be a mum , when will ppl learn


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> They've had the tests I said in one of my first posts.


Yes....


> we love both of our dogs very much they've had tests and are very
> Healthy.


People have asked since what those tests were, and you've not answered, so maybe people are thinking they are not the usual tests done when breeding Labradors? Hip scores and eyes are a MUST - and a few other things - but as you've said your male dog is only 1 year old, then no wonder people are doubting your word.... because most of these tests aren't done until the dog is around 2 years old.

I think this explains why some people are questioning your motives


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Gary that's great - so you're confirming that BOTH dogs have been elbow and hip scored, and that BOTH dogs had at time of mating a current clear BVA eye cert?

And you're also confirming that ONE of the dogs has been tested as DNA 'clear' for CNM and PRA?

You're confirming all of this?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Gary that's great - so you're confirming that BOTH dogs have been elbow and hip scored, and that BOTH dogs had at time of mating a current clear BVA eye cert?
> 
> And you're also confirming that ONE of the dogs has been tested as DNA 'clear' for CNM and PRA?
> 
> You're confirming all of this?


Very simple way to prove it, post the pedigree names of the dogs involved.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

But he won't because he hasn't or he would by now have proudly paraded the names and scores. Same old, same old. Breeding from non health tested Labradors when the breeding coefficient is probably higher than most other breeds in the UK and hip dysplasia is just an imaginary problem. La la land.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> But he won't because he hasn't or he would by now have proudly paraded the names and scores.


 I was trying to be a little more tactful.... This might be the first time the op has ever heard of hip & elbow scores. I'd like them to go away and *do* them if they haven't already, and come away feeling someone here had guided them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I was trying to be a little more tactful....


Just as an example, if I post the names of my girls, you can either look them up on the KC health check website, or on myKC.

Chapelrose Indian Princess
Chapelrose Lala Tau of Tarimoor
Arrowhill Stargazer for Tarimoor (flatcoat, so slightly different health tests)
Tarimoor Dark Opal


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just as an example, if I post the names of my girls, you can either look them up on the KC health check website, or on myKC.


I'm aware of this, and I am a member of MyKC. It's a good resource for checking all kinds of things like registration, ancestry and health checks.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> I was trying to be a little more tactful.... This might be the first time the op has ever heard of hip & elbow scores. I'd like them to go away and *do* them if they haven't already, and come away feeling someone here had guided them.


It may be so, but he said they had the tests. I fear he does not know what was meant by health tests. I think the time for tact is past: if the dogs mated as often as he said, the bitch is pregnant and it's too late.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> It may be so, but he said they had the tests. I fear he does not know what was meant by health tests. I think the time for tact is past: if the dogs mated as often as he said, the bitch is pregnant and it's too late.


Like I said - tactful.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

For me, the worrying thing is, that anyone breeding Labradors understands these tests, and how important they are. So many puppy buyers are completely unaware of the health tests available for breeders to use, and then when they find out, they're almost blase about it, as if pet dogs don't need the health tests in place on parents. My thinking is exactly the opposite, the vast majority of dogs bred end up as pets first and foremost, probably 99.9% thinking about it, as all the people I know who show/work their dogs, have their dogs as companions as well. So it's vital that people start understanding these tests and only buying from litters where both parents have had the tests and the breeder has used the results appropriately when planning the litter to avoid breeding pups that could have the health problems associated with the tests we have available.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

All I can say is google Lisa Walsh. A girl on another forum I use has battled madly to get this woman into court because she of course didn't hipscore and the pup needed £5000 of surgery. I'm not saying this guy is anything like Lisa Walsh who deserves to be strung up for being a disgusting puppy farmer, frankly, but hopefully anyone who comes across this thread will see the importance of the health tests. Tact is an aside. The guy has the support on here if he needs it, but I don't appreciate people fluffing about saying they've had tests.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Tbh we figured they had the tests but they haven't by what your saying and we didn't buy either of our dogs with papers or see any papers. We saw the mum of our girl Labrador and mum and dad of our boy Labrador. We paid £350 for our girl and £450 for our boy. I thought these tests were done when still with mum as both owners said they had all health checks done and passed with flying colours.
Both of our dogs go for health checks at the vets every 6 months and they know we were planning on a litter and they didn't mention none of what's been said on here. Yes we are in fault but it's a shame we didn't find this sight before


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

How do I post a pic on here?
I will post one of them both


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> Tbh we figured they had the tests but they haven't by what your saying and we didn't buy either of our dogs with papers or see any papers. We saw the mum of our girl Labrador and mum and dad of our boy Labrador. We paid £350 for our girl and £450 for our boy. I thought these tests were done when still with mum as both owners said they had all health checks done and passed with flying colours.
> Both of our dogs go for health checks at the vets every 6 months and they know we were planning on a litter and they didn't mention none of what's been said on here. Yes we are in fault but it's a shame we didn't find this sight before


Health CHECKS are not the same as health TESTS.
Checks done by a vet as puppies or for the bi-monthly MOT are just are vet saying "yep... four legs, tail - that's a dog alright!"
Health tests are genetic screenings - as has been explained in this thread by several people - to find out if the dogs have genetic issues that may be passed along to offspring.

So you have basically lied when you posted two different hip scored in two different threads?
Lying to people trying to help won't help any pups if they end up with problems :nonod:

Miniumum age for health tests such as hip scoring is a year I believe. So no... they cannot be done as puppies...
Not knowing the lines of your dogs or their parents means you know absolutely nothing about them other than pretty much what you can see with your eyes. Family tree might be riddled with health problems or they may be closely related.

Not sure why anyone would jump into breeding without doing even basic research on the breed? :frown2:


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We didn't even know anything about these tests do all dogs have to have these tests before breeding?
Sorry I lied what else can I say. Our male dog is 1 the end of this month. We didn't think they would mate until her next season with our male dog being a fair bit younger


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

So i'am guessing the parents of both of our dogs didn't have the tests either as we wasn't told about any scores. Just health checks by the vets


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> We didn't even know anything about these tests do all dogs have to have these tests before breeding?
> Sorry I lied what else can I say. Our male dog is 1 the end of this month. We didn't think they would mate until her next season with our male dog being a fair bit younger


Yes certain breeds with know health problems have to have certain tests before breeding, because a lot of the problems are hereditary and can be passed to the puppies causing them serious problems and in some cases life limiting illnesses.

Hate to say this, but your boy is also way to young to be used as a stud... 

Take it you have no KC registration papers for the parents either?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just an FYI for you to read up on...

Health Page


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Tbh *we figured they had the tests but they haven't by what your saying *and we didn't buy either of our dogs with papers or see any papers. We saw the mum of our girl Labrador and mum and dad of our boy Labrador. We paid £350 for our girl and £450 for our boy. I thought these tests were done when still with mum as both owners said they had all health checks done and passed with flying colours.
> Both of our dogs go for health checks at the vets every 6 months and they know we were planning on a litter and they didn't mention none of what's been said on here. Yes we are in fault but it's a shame we didn't find this sight before


How can you think they've had them done? They either have or they haven't!

At that price, your dogs are highly unlikely to be breeding quality as they sound like you got them from a byb. 6 month health checks are not health tests and most vets are unaware of health tests and what goes into breeding.

You still have time to get the Alizin and stop this irresponsible and risky litter.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> We didn't even know anything about these tests do all dogs have to have these tests before breeding?
> Sorry I lied what else can I say. Our male dog is 1 the end of this month. We didn't think they would mate until her next season with our male dog being a fair bit younger


FFS - your dog is not yet old enough to have hip and elbow scores. He comes from unscored parents, quite likely to be byb.

Please get your girl the mismate and if you still want to breed get both dogs health tested. With no health history on the parents that is the least you should be doing.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> We didn't even know anything about these tests do all dogs have to have these tests before breeding?
> Sorry I lied what else can I say. Our male dog is 1 the end of this month. We didn't think they would mate until her next season with our male dog being a fair bit younger


I know some of these posts will sound harsh to you, but you have to think about what is best for the dogs. You now know that your dogs have probably come from a background with no health tests, and understand that your dogs haven't had the health tests needed to ensure pups are healthy. I would honestly consider having the mismate done, which sounds awful, but you are taking several huge gambles. The first is that your bitch is going to go through having a litter, which is a big risk to her health and welfare. The second is you are gambling with the health of any resultant pups, as you have absolutely no idea about the health behind their breeding, they could be affected for any of the genetic conditions good breeders test and breed clear from, and you have absolutely no idea about their hips and elbows. Having read a post recently on another forum, where their bitch came back with a combined hip score of 91 out of a possible 103, and yet shows absolutely no outward signs of such a high score, you cannot tell without actually putting your dogs through hip scoring/elbow grading what the state of their joints are.

With such a huge gamble, I would honestly ask your vet about the mismate, and put it all down to experience. There are hundreds of Labradors and Labrador puppies waiting to be rescued already, and on a breed specific forum there's a post where someone is struggling to sell pups from fully health tested parents, looking for ideas of where to advertise. I know you probably had absolutely no idea about all of this before you posted on here, but hopefully now you do understand that bit more about breeding, you can seriously consider the mismate.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

And just to add to Sleeping Lion's post, NONE of the inherited problems that will be tested for in the health tests are problems that would be picked up during a vet check. They are hidden which is why they require specialist tests and specialist vets to carry them out. Hip and elbow dysplasia can only be diagnosed with xrays as dogs can have it and be completely sound. They then pass it on and the same with other conditions, your dogs may be carries and produce dogs that are affected.

You have a huge amount to learn. Breeding is NOT about letting them mate and get pregnant.

Please do the responsible thing and stop this pregnancy.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you for the advice they are not KC.
She started her season on 26th April and mated on quite a few occasions in about 2 weeks. I've noticed her nipples are hanging down a bit today


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Gary,

In the light of what you now know, you do have the option to have the Mismate injection and end your bitch's pregnancy.

There's no guarantee that the pups from this mating will be affected by the inherited conditions/diseases mentioned by others, but there has to be a very real risk indeed.

Nobody can tell you what to do, but do have a long, hard think about this and whether you want to be responsible for producing a litter of pups which could be badly affected and suffer unnecessarily.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Thank you for the advice they are not KC.
> She started her season on 26th April and mated on quite a few occasions in about 2 weeks. I've noticed her nipples are hanging down a bit today


Gary, Alizin can be given up to 45 days of pregnancy. If you want to do the responsible thing then go and get it done and end this irresponsible pregnancy. Then, if you want to try again in the future you will get a lot of support on this forum.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

And just another additional snippet, I have a few friends who have, unfortunately bought pups from breeders without realising about the health tests. One breeder even lied about the health tests being in place. One dog is likely to be affected status for gPRA, so may go blind from a young age, and I read on another breed specific forum, of someone else having a gPRA affected dog going blind at the age of 4 years old, another person who didn't buy from health tested parents. And another friend with a year old pup, who is looking at possibly severe hip problems, again, no health tests in place on parents, grand parents etc. 

You have to ask yourself, how would you feel if you went ahead with this litter, and the pups went on to develop those sort of problems? How would you feel speaking to the owners of pups that they may have to have put to sleep, because they have such debilitating conditions? 

Thank you for being honest about the health testing btw, one of the very first things I learned about breeding, was that you have to be 100% honest, not just with others, but to yourself. The hardest decision I've made is not to breed from one of my bitches, but it was the right decision, even if it didn't feel like it at the time.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

On top of all the info you've just been given, I think it needs to be made clear that if you do go through with the litter and rehome the pups, and some of the pups turn out to have hereditary conditions which could (or should) have been tested for, the pup's owners are liable to sue you to cover their dog's medical costs. To put this into perspective, good breeders generally will cover any medical costs their litters incur from any diseases with a genetic or hereditary component; it's just part of breeding ethically. Difference is, no legal proceedings are involved. 

Even just on this basis, IMHO it's a huge risk to go through with a litter from unhealth-tested dogs, unless you're financially prepared for the consequences.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Gary, if you truly are a dog lover, then you won't want to bring pups into the world that could go BLIND or LAME by the age of two.

Or die from CNM within six months of being born.

So for crying out loud, PLEASE get the mismate jab and stop this risky pregnancy!!!

If you are a real lover of dogs and Labs, you WILL do this.

If you don't, and any of the pups develops a condition that *could* have been prevented had YOU done a bit of research, then the owners will probably sue you and pursue you to the ends of the earth - and good luck to them, frankly!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Alizin (the mismate jab) can be given up to day 45 of pregnancy. Even if she got pregnant right at the start of her season (unlikely), there is still time to book in for Alizin if it's done early next week.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I think some people are being a little aggressive here. I just don't think being mean is going to make people listen, just get defensive. 

I bred Sandy, she is not KC, she wasn't health tested, and I didn't even know about the tests either. 
I did use a KC tested stud. 

In hindsight it would have been nice to have somebody kindly explain more about testing etc but nobody did. 
If I could go back I would have done more research etc first. 

So as I have been in a similar position to the person, having been there and done it, I'd say to possibly terminate the pregnancy, go away and do research, and if you still want to breed then have both dogs tested prior and even think about using a different stud. 
It's too late for me now but it's not for you.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> If you don't, and any of the pups develops a condition that *could* have been prevented had YOU done a bit of research, then the owners will probably sue you and pursue you to the ends of the earth


I doubt it. They'd be buying puppies from unregistered parents who aren't health tested, talk about contributory negligence. As they aren't registered and don't have a pedigree they could be mongrels that look like labs. There's no recommended tests, or guarantees implied or otherwise with mongrels that look like labs.

Now if he told the purchasers that they were KC registered, pedigree puppies and the parents were health scored, that would be different.

I would go for the abortion jab though. With no pedigrees there's at least a risk of inbred mutants if the dogs come from the same area and similar types of breeder, making the risk of hereditary disorder even higher. Even with health tests, there are all kinds of genetic diseases that can be inherited and more so with a close relative mating.

I might be in favour of breeding pet dogs that aren't necessarily pure-bred, and not entirely against the average little brown dog that's so average it's the rarest type of dog, but that doesn't mean with no background, or pedigree and no idea whether the parents are related or carriers/sufferers of disease that can be tested for. 

Shame your vet didn't read petforums, he should have pointed you in the right direction when you mentioned wanting to breed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think if I was *heavily* involved in rescue, I'd probably be much harsher. It's enough that I hear second hand from those involved with rescue who tell me about some of the dire consequences of *just* having a litter of pups. I can also see it from both sides, as I was incredibly ignorant about all of the health testing before I got Indie, my first Labrador, and I happened to come across a good breeder. They never showed their dogs, but researched thoroughly and used proven stud dogs, and as far as I'm concerned, I think a lot more of their breeding plans than I do of some *top* show/working people, unfortunately, they gave it all up as it all became too much for her, more the cat breeding side as I understand that can be even more *catty* (forgive the pun), and she actually did show and did very well with the cats. So I can see the *pet* breeding side of it, but there is no excuse these days for not knowing about the tests, all the information is easily to hand in any books about Labradors, or on any breed club site, the kennel club site etc, etc.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

DollyGirl08 said:


> I think some people are being a little *aggressive* here. I just don't think being mean is going to make people listen, just get defensive.
> 
> I bred Sandy, she is not KC, she wasn't health tested, and I didn't even know about the tests either.
> I did use a KC tested stud.
> ...


Perhaps some of us are fed up that the OP lied about the hip scores....

Gary - I really do hope you take on board the advice, we care passionately about the dogs involved.


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## katieloo (Feb 9, 2014)

Garys2201 said:


> No joke we love both of our dogs very much they've had tests and are very
> Healthy.
> Sorry I even come on here for advice it's a shame you are questioned like this I was hoping for advice not a lecture


Please don't feel that way it was probably meant well as in the interest of the future puppies - good luck to you everyone has to start somewhere but no dog lover wants to think of dogs being bred badly. I only thought afterwards if your post had said "after doing da de da ect tests and being ready to breed" we wondered ...........


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Perhaps some of us are fed up that the OP lied about the hip scores....
> 
> Gary - I really do hope you take on board the advice, we care passionately about the dogs involved.


Which is fair enough except a lot of the mean comments were made before he said he lied, and when people are coming in quite an aggressive manner it's understandable he lied at first.
I just don't think education works best when pushed forcefully rather than explained kindly.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Which is fair enough *except a lot of the mean comments were made before he said he lied*, and when people are coming in quite an aggressive manner it's understandable he lied at first.
> I just don't think education works best when pushed forcefully rather than explained kindly.


But some of us with a bit more experience can work out that no tests had been done before the OP said they had lied about it. That's the problem - we hear it all the time. To someone who is experienced, these kind of breeders stand out like a mile - they don't need to say it, it is obvious.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Which is fair enough except a lot of the mean comments were made before he said he lied, and when people are coming in quite an aggressive manner it's understandable he lied at first.
> I just don't think education works best when pushed forcefully rather than explained kindly.


 Nobody has been 'mean'.

Blunt, yes.

But not 'mean'.

My sympathies lie with the dogs and the future pups, not with the OP, frankly.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

DollyGirl08 said:


> I think some people are being a little aggressive here. I just don't think being mean is going to make people listen, just get defensive.
> 
> I bred Sandy, she is not KC, she wasn't health tested, and I didn't even know about the tests either.
> I did use a KC tested stud.
> ...


very valid point. 
OP, i have held back posting this as every time I read it back it has me in a state again, but i feel it's time i post it again.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/308953-why-im-against-breeding-just-because-you-can.html
when i was a stupid young girl (only a handful of years ago) i bred my Kitty (the yorkieXchi in my sig pic) and honestly, it was one of the most traumatic things that i have went through (says a lot that btw.)
honestly, the heartbreak i went through afterwards was almost more than i could bare, and i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy... please have a read and have another think about getting the mismate- i wish i had in this case instead of taking the stud owners word for it.



katieloo said:


> Please don't feel that way it was probably meant well as in the interest of the future puppies - *good luck to you everyone has to start somewhere* but no dog lover wants to think of dogs being bred badly. I only thought afterwards if your post had said "after doing da de da ect tests and being ready to breed" we wondered ...........


((i don't mean this personally- just in general!)) 
that's one stupid phrase when talking about breeding. 
yes, everyone Does have to start somewhere, but saying it like that implies that this is the way to start- badly.
when in fact, everyone does need to start somewhere- on a computer reading up on your breed, buying breed specific books and others like 'the book of the bitch', finding a vet that knows about reproduction and finding someone in your area and in your breed who can help you along the way... being overly simplistic in advice giving imo is more dangerous than not giving it at all.

Gary, i do hope you stay on this forum- the amount you will learn will be invaluable in the future. and the help and advice that you can receive both on the forum and via private messages is second to none!! i can't think of anyone who would refuse to help you in your journey of planning for a well thought out litter!

and going back to a point Sleeping_lion made earlier- it can be the hardest choice to decide Not to breed!! kuki is a homebred from my mums dog, and as a result poppet is a 2nd generation homebred. they are as healthy as i could want and conformationally they are exceptional. but there are no health tested studs in this country, so i'm done. they are both being spayed next month. 6 years in the making to get popp here, but nope, i'm not going ahead... 
((the only reason they are not done already is both have irregular seasons so it is sometimes hard to know when they would be safest- and i did like holding on to the thought of the possibility, but i've now found a vet who can remove a massive tumor from a rat (it was twice the size of her head and linked to major vessels) so even if he opens them to find either is in fact having a silent heat, he can continue with No worries!))


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## katieloo (Feb 9, 2014)

Kodakkuki I have to say you are right my comment about everyone has to start somewhere did come across as rather blazay and without thought - of course I didn't mean just jump in and go for it but I can see why it may have come across that way


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

katieloo said:


> Kodakkuki I have to say you are right my comment about everyone has to start somewhere did come across as rather blazay and without thought - of course I didn't mean just jump in and go for it but I can see why it may have come across that way


i did know you hadn't meant it that way... just thought i'd clarify! 
(hope the way i did so didn't offend you hun!!)


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

Sadly I don't think Gary really does care about his dogs whatever he says. He has two unregistered labs and he has allowed his male who isn't even a year old to indiscriminately breed with his female. Then he has lied about the health testing when asked and still isn't listening to the very sensible advice to have the termination jab which is the best thing all round for his dogs.

However we try to get this message across -kindly, bluntly or whatever I really don't think Gary wants to hear it.
Whatever he says he wants his dogs to breed and will no doubt sell the pups or give them away so they are someone else's problem. Not the actions of a caring owner in my book 
Yes I may be harsh but this attitude infuriates me. They always think their dog will have a Disney like pregnancy and the puppies will all go off to lovely homes without any issues. The reality is that if the pups are born without incident ( a big "if") and if he can manage to find homes for them then what happens when the health issues start coming and the dogs go blind, can't walk properly etc? Is Gary accepting any responsibility for any of it??

He wants to breed his dogs. Despite all the very good advice on here all he is posting about is whether his bitch is pregnant. No comment about the termination jab, no comment about the welfare of his dogs, no comment about neutering either of them nothing 

Is it any wonder people are frustrated with him?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

PBR1 said:


> Sadly I don't think Gary really does care about his dogs whatever he says. He has two unregistered labs and he has allowed his male who isn't even a year old to indiscriminately breed with his female. Then he has lied about the health testing when asked and still isn't listening to the very sensible advice to have the termination jab which is the best thing all round for his dogs.
> 
> However we try to get this message across -kindly, bluntly or whatever I really don't think Gary wants to hear it.
> Whatever he says he wants his dogs to breed and will no doubt sell the pups or give them away so they are someone else's problem. Not the actions of a caring owner in my book
> ...


I have become rather frustrated, I have to admit.

But then, I see this kind of thing every day. People mention that veterinary staff don't do enough to educate people, but if someone wants to breed, they will breed. And we can't exactly put a gun to their head and stop them.

In answer to the question: 'is she pregnant?' I have to admit that my answer is: 'hopefully not'.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> People mention that veterinary staff don't do enough to educate people, but if someone wants to breed, they will breed. And we can't exactly put a gun to their head and stop them.


That would be me, but the comment was a bit tongue in cheek tbh. I wouldn't think the OP went to the vet to ask about breeding, though I suppose he might have.

Quite a few people say their bitch was cleared by a vet for breeding, her health checked, but I doubt it's always true tbh. As a vet, do you get many people bringing their random male and female pair in to be checked over before they're bred?


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We've had some sad news one of our cats died he got hit by a car we think.
The reason we had both dogs with us when we went to the vets was because we took them in for a check up and to be wormed and fleas.
Going back to our female dog we are very upset about our cat but we will be going to the vets. I have told them we think she is pregnant and all about it


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Elles said:


> That would be me, but the comment was a bit tongue in cheek tbh. I wouldn't think the OP went to the vet to ask about breeding, though I suppose he might have.
> 
> Quite a few people say their bitch was cleared by a vet for breeding, her health checked, but I doubt it's always true tbh. As a vet, do you get many people bringing their random male and female pair in to be checked over before they're bred?


Lol no I wasn't directing that comment at anyone in particular! 

I have NEVER had a dog in to be 'checked for breeding'. Ever.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> We've had some sad news one of our cats died he got hit by a car we think.
> The reason we had both dogs with us when we went to the vets was because we took them in for a check up and to be wormed and fleas.
> Going back to our female dog we are very upset about our cat but we will be going to the vets. I have told them we think she is pregnant and all about it


I'm sorry to hear about your cat.  xxx


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## katieloo (Feb 9, 2014)

kodakkuki said:


> i did know you hadn't meant it that way... just thought i'd clarify!
> (hope the way i did so didn't offend you hun!!)


No offence taken I,m noted for being able to put my foot in my mouth


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your cat, very sad news  

Good luck at the vets, have you made any decision about the litter?


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

She further along than 45 days we worked it out we look back on the calendar. We are booking her in but one of our cats had babies so we've been busy with the mummy cat but all is ok and she has 5 kittens. Our dog seems calm and settled usually she's running around and nutty. She is getting fatter by the day. We are reading up and we are getting a Whelping kit and box and pen and vets number will be on the wall it's a 1 min drive from our house


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> She further along than 45 days we worked it out we look back on the calendar. We are booking her in but one of our cats had babies so we've been busy with the mummy cat but all is ok and she has 5 kittens. Our dog seems calm and settled usually she's running around and nutty. She is getting fatter by the day. We are reading up and we are getting a Whelping kit and box and pen and vets number will be on the wall it's a 1 min drive from our house


What breed of cat do you have?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> She further along than 45 days we worked it out we look back on the calendar. We are booking her in but one of our cats had babies so we've been busy with the mummy cat but all is ok and she has 5 kittens. Our dog seems calm and settled usually she's running around and nutty. She is getting fatter by the day. We are reading up and we are getting a Whelping kit and box and pen and vets number will be on the wall it's a 1 min drive from our house


Oh FFS why is a litter of kittens too not a surprise! All I can say is I'm thankful you don't have any of my puppies


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Anyone care to give Gary a crash-course in puppy midwifery? :ihih:

This book usually comes well-recommended: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Bitch-...=1402562676&sr=8-1&keywords=book+of+the+bitch

Need to ask - have you checked that your vet covers out-of-hours, weekends and bank holidays? Also, if your girl does require something like a c-section, do you have means to cover the costs? Some vets are great and have payment plans, but some do not. An out-of-hours CS can be around £3000, and might be an upfront fee if you're unlucky.

Also... probably wise to stock up on puppy milk, potty pads and newspaper. 
Think people tend to recommend "vet bed" for the whelping box, because it's absorbent and easy to clean.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I think the poor cat who has just had kittens will be better off giving advice to the labrador about giving birth


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Oh FFS why is a litter of kittens too not a surprise! All I can say is I'm thankful you don't have any of my puppies


Turning into Animal Farm!


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

They are just normal cats


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

any reason why you failed to neuter your cats?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> She further along than 45 days we worked it out we look back on the calendar.


Oh, how convenient that you've not managed to take her to the vet and it's suddenly too late for the mismate jab :001_rolleyes:



Garys2201 said:


> They are just normal cats


Fabulous, now you're indiscriminately breeding cats as well as dogs.

OP, you really, _really_ need to start taking the care and welfare of your animals a bit more seriously.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Garys2201 said:


> She further along than 45 days we worked it out we look back on the calendar. We are booking her in but one of our cats had babies so we've been busy with the mummy cat but all is ok and she has 5 kittens.


Frankly, I can't decide if you're a troll or just plain stupid. Headdesk moment or what.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

She is having one litter she is already booked in the vets to be neutered and all kitten have home already friends and family of ours so we will know where they are going and know they have good homes


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We our taking our dog at 2pm today for a scan


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

But why do it?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> But why do it?


Cos puppies and kittens are cute dont you know!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Cos puppies and kittens are cute dont you know!


And don't forget it's a nice experience for the kids!! Plus, all female animals need to experience motherhood, right?

:mad2::mad2::mad2:


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## wileys mum (Oct 27, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Frankly, I can't decide if you're a troll or just plain stupid. Headdesk moment or what.


and me i have thought this all along is it just a wind up ? cause surly to god no one can be this irresponisble , thousands of dogs unwanted and pts daily cause of this type of breeding , not to mention thousands of cats in the same boat , unbelievable


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Do you know there is a reason I can't stand people...........................

So entire cats and dogs why aren't your animals neutered? So you allow entire cats to roam have you had her tested for FeLV and FIV? I'm guessing not. you really have no concern for the welfare of your animals at all you put them at risk and say you love them......... If you loved them you would do what's best for them and you are not you are doing whats best by you............ 

What a shock you worked out it was longer than 45 days.... 

Stop thinking about yourself and do what's right by your animals.......... 

You sicken me you really do...........


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

It is partly because of people like you Gary that our rescues and shelters are crammed full of dogs and that healthy dogs are being killed, through lack of rescue spaces and homes.

STOP BREEDING YOUR PETS


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Is the male cat that got hit by a car 3 days ago the daddy by any chance? 
I believe you're a troll. I refuse to believe people this irresponsible/ naive/ whatever you're trying to come off as exist and are allowed to own pets.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

The lady saw 5 puppies but said there could be more in the rib cage.
No our cat ran over wasn't the dad to the kittens.
Shall I stop posting here? we are looking for a bit of advice and i'am sure we will need it in the coming weeks yes we aren't prepared the best we could be but we have got a few more weeks to get prepared and we will give them the best care. Our kittens all have homes already and we have 3 homes for the puppies already


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

I dunno if this will work but here's a link to our cat having the kittens and our Labradors are on the video too
Hospital Appointment and cat gives birth - YouTube


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> *Shall I stop posting here?* we are looking for a bit of advice and i'am sure we will need it in the coming weeks yes we aren't prepared the best we could be but we have got a few more weeks to get prepared and we will give them the best care.


I suppose that depends on whether you're going to take the advice you're given or not? You've already had tons of excellent advice and have chosen to ignore it, putting your bitch at risk for the most ridiculous of reasons.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> I dunno if this will work but here's a link to our cat having the kittens and our Labradors are on the video too
> Hospital Appointment and cat gives birth - YouTube


For the sake of your bitch please give her more privacy than your poor cat when she's giving birth, she doesn't need an audience when she's at her most vulnerable.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> She is having one litter she is already booked in the vets to be neutered and all kitten have home already friends and family of ours so we will know where they are going and know they have good homes


This is what every indiscriminate moggy breeder thinks until the people start making excuses for not wanting one.

I take it you're going to offer lifetime backup to the people who adopt all of these puppies & kittens, so that not a single one ends up in rescue?

And have neutering contracts in place?



Garys2201 said:


> The lady saw 5 puppies but said there could be more in the rib cage.
> No our cat ran over wasn't the dad to the kittens.
> Shall I stop posting here? *we are looking for a bit of advice* and i'am sure we will need it in the coming weeks yes we aren't prepared the best we could be but we have got a few more weeks to get prepared and we will give them the best care. Our kittens all have homes already and we have 3 homes for the puppies already


My advice to you is to neuter all your animals at the soonest opportunity as you obviously don't seem to be capable of preventing them from reproducing!

Threads like this make me really sad


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

She will have we are putting her in a quiet room with her Whelping box and everything she needs


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you for the advice all of our pets will be neutered as soon as possible. Starting with the boys in the next month


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Thank you for the advice all of our pets will be neutered as soon as possible. Starting with the boys in the next month


This is good to hear, you probably think some of us are being harsh, but we really are passionate about animal welfare & many of us on here have to deal with the fallout from indiscriminate breeding.

I hope your bitch has a trouble free whelp & all her pups are born healthy & safe.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you and I hope so too.
No that's fine I know most of you mean well and are only thinking about the welfare of the dogs and cats


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

This is either the fifth or sixth litter I have heard of recently, from parents where there is either little or no health tests in place, no KC registration in some instances, and no idea about the risks to the bitch. That's around another 50 or 60 pups probably added to the burgeoning population, and this is why these posts attract so much criticism from members, who regularly see this sort of thing happen. I hope that puts it into context for you, and maybe explains why some members are being quite blunt. 

Please do make sure you set aside a quiet space for your bitch, and keep any other animals away, as quiet as possible. You will need a heat lamp/pad, some replacement milk, loads of clean fresh towels and bedding - something like vet bed which you can wash at quite a high temperature, nothing that will harbour germs, it will cost you about £50 for enough of a piece to cut into bedding for her whelping box. Did you buy a copy of the book of the bitch? That will go through the different stages, and tell you when to up her feed, I raw feed my dogs, so don't change to puppy foods but this is recommended for dogs fed on kibble, from memory it's something like two weeks off whelping that you switch over, but I would need to read it again as I don't really need the information, so it doesn't stick in my head. 

I'm just about to get my girls out for their afternoon walk, and training with one of them, so may not post until later but read the stickies in this section about what you will need as regards whelping equipment and how to prepare yourself. Also put some serious thought into a contract of sale that will state these pups are not to be bred on from, and that there is no known health status for the parents other than a vet check, which basically amounts to them having four legs, a waggy tail and wet nose.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> She is having one litter she is already booked in the vets to be neutered and all kitten have home already friends and family of ours so we will know where they are going and know they have good homes


Are these same friends and family interested in your puppies?

It's interesting you never mentioned your cat being pregnant before. Are you just breeding all your animals indiscriminately? I can now only assume it's for profit  So sad.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

I didn't mention our cat because I was talking about our dog.
No they are different friends
Where is the best place to buy a Whelping box? Do we need a pen too?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

STEEL CITY WHELPING BOXES AND KITTENING PENS

For whelping box, where abouts are you in the country? I can lend you a pen but you will need to disinfect it thoroughly before using, you can either prop it up to use flat to segregate a room into two, or use it as a pen.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you for the link. 
And that is kind of you. We live in Ramsgate Kent.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

A bit far, I live in Yorkshire, do you have anything lying around you could use to segregate off part of a room? Or could you buy/make something up out of wood lying about that would just be temporary? It will need to last for 4-5 weeks once the pups are active, and if you use something like wood, then it needs disposing off afterwards really.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you for the offer.
No we don't have anything laying about but I will buy one.
What size one do you think we should get?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Yes certain breeds with know health problems have to have certain tests before breeding, because a lot of the problems are hereditary and can be passed to the puppies causing them serious problems and in some cases life limiting illnesses.


They do not HAVE to have health tests - some breeders prefer to and there are recommended tests for most breeds but no law that says they have to be tested and only a few breeders do test.



Lizz1155 said:


> On top of all the info you've just been given, I think it needs to be made clear that if you do go through with the litter and rehome the pups, and some of the pups turn out to have hereditary conditions which could (or should) have been tested for, the pup's owners are liable to sue you to cover their dog's medical costs. To put this into perspective, good breeders generally will cover any medical costs their litters incur from any diseases with a genetic or hereditary component; it's just part of breeding ethically. Difference is, no legal proceedings are involved.
> 
> Even just on this basis, IMHO it's a huge risk to go through with a litter from unhealth-tested dogs, unless you're financially prepared for the consequences.


That is rubbish. I doubt if any breeder would pay the veterinary costs and I would not have thought anyone would sue a breeder or win if they did.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> The lady saw 5 puppies but said there could be more in the rib cage.
> No our cat ran over wasn't the dad to the kittens.
> Shall I stop posting here? we are looking for a bit of advice and i'am sure we will need it in the coming weeks yes we aren't prepared the best we could be but we have got a few more weeks to get prepared and we will give them the best care. Our kittens all have homes already and we have 3 homes for the puppies already


Ok - here's a bit of advice:

Neuter your animals and stop being so irresponsible.
I'm guessing you are adult - try and behave like one.
And stop using your pets to give yourself a thrill.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Blitz said:


> They do not HAVE to have health tests - some breeders prefer to and there are recommended tests for most breeds but no law that says they have to be tested and only a few breeders do test.
> 
> That is rubbish. * I doubt if any breeder would pay the veterinary costs* and I would not have thought anyone would sue a breeder or win if they did.


not rubbish. i'm fairly sure i've mentioned before that one of missys girls from her last litter had an iffy leg (she pulled it during the birth because i wasn't quick enough  ). i told her prospective owners when they came to meet the pups and they were perfectly fine knowing she may need it corrected. turns out she did need surgery at about 6 months, and even though i had already told them before they signed the contract (stating that i would cover the insurance excess should any hereditary illness appear) i still offered to pay it for them. they refused though, and instead it became a donation to a local sanctuary... 
so not rubbish, as i'm sure i can't be the only one to have done similar.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Garys2201 *


> We did it because we wanted our dog to have the experience of being a mother and *we wanted the experience we are a large family and the children will enjoy this experience too*.


Which you & they have had now, with the cat giving birth..... What a shame you didn't get the Alizin jab at the time it was first suggested. You must have known your cat was pregnant then, or soon after.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've got something like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SIDED-METAL...d=1402605238&sr=8-31&keywords=puppy+play+pens

Blitz, I think you are really from a world gone by, do you not realise that we can now breed dogs clear from numerous health conditions, or do you just like to gamble?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> They do not HAVE to have health tests - some breeders prefer to and there are recommended tests for most breeds but no law that says they have to be tested and only a few breeders do test.
> 
> That is rubbish. I doubt if any breeder would pay the veterinary costs and I would not have thought anyone would sue a breeder or win if they did.


Really you think? Only a few breeders test? Not sure what world or era you a living in but all responsible ethical breeders health tests, those who care about the long term welfare of their puppies health test, those who wish for the best possible lives health test and while there is no law (wish there was) those who wish not to cause their puppies a life of pain should feel morally and ethically obliged to do so!

OP has used a dog under a year old and a young biych too they have no idea of state of their hips, elbows or eyes nor the grandparents! You might think it's acceptable to play Russian Roulette with puppies lives but those with ethics chose not too.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> They are just normal cats


And you couldn't of neutered them from 12weeks of age?  All cats are 'normal' cats  Kittens should not leave until 12weeks of age be fully vac and neutered, you can look up vets near you in my link in my sig.

IF you let mum out again or near a male she can become pregnant right away. 
Your children have witnessed a birth, no need for puppies now!  You could just show them a human birth on youtube though, why do people want kids to view a animal birth?!?!

Can I ask are you the man who called me the other day with a pregnant cat that was 6 day over due and still with the male, asking me for advice?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm pasting this reply from someone who has contacted me off forum to ask me to put this response on, to show the fall out that happens from this type of litter. 

"Gary,
I&#8217;ve been reading this thread in disbelief, and I&#8217;ve refrained from posting up until this point.
I know you&#8217;ve decided to go ahead with this litter, and whilst I think that is totally irresponsible, I just want to let you know from a puppy buyers perspective what can and does go wrong.

I have a chocolate labrador puppy who will be one year old on Monday. This little fella was the result of a private re-home when he was 11 weeks old, as the family he was sold to couldn&#8217;t cope with him and didn&#8217;t have any time for him.
When we got him, we traced him back to the breeder, who we went on to meet and who sat with us for a good few hours and she seemed absolutely lovely and genuine. We met my little mans parents, his Aunt, and his Grandma. We were told by the breeder that the parents had been hip and elbow scored, and although I can&#8217;t remember the exact hip scores we were told now (I believe it was 5:5 and 3:4 or something similar), we thought we had struck gold!

After some digging and looking on the MyKC site, it turns out that neither parent had any sort of health testing in place. At that point, we weren&#8217;t too concerned, however, it was always in the back of our minds, and we tried contacting the breeder to no avail.

At my little mans 6-month check back in December, we showed the vet a lump that had developed on his elbow. It turned out to be a histiocytoma which went on its own after a few weeks. It could&#8217;ve been worse.
On Christmas day, my boy showed the first signs of any issue - he was limping after a short play with my sisters lab puppy of the same age.

Back in February, our little man went to stay with my parents for a month whilst my bitch had her first season. Whilst he was there I visited regularly and I noticed a lump appear on the side of his tongue. This lump grew and grew, and recently had to be removed as the vet was concerned about the consistency and location. He now has a chunk of tongue missing because it couldn&#8217;t be stitched&#8230;It turned out to be an idiopathic lump, however, again, it could&#8217;ve been worse.

More recently (going back over the last few months), my little man has been limping after any form of exercise. It started off after a short 20 minute walk, which included only 10-15 minutes of time off lead. When he&#8217;s by himself he just potters around so wasn&#8217;t doing anything strenuous, yet he came home limping. It&#8217;s progressively gotten worse, to the point where he&#8217;s been on strict crate rest for a month now and when he walks his hips click loudly. He can now walk a maximum of about 100 metres over 10-15 minutes and be okay. Just. But he has to go straight back into his crate afterwards. Do you know how guilty that makes me feel? And how he must feel seeing our other dog playing around and having fun. He&#8217;s a baby - he shouldn&#8217;t have to go through this.

Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch a puppy not be able to play and bounce around a be a puppy? Do you know how heartbreaking it is to see a dog you love with all of your being struggle to bear weight on his back legs after he&#8217;s had a short play or walk? Do you have any idea how much it physically hurts and how many tears have been shed over this boy we love so much?

Had our boy been hip scored like we were told, there is a very good chance that he wouldn&#8217;t have had these problems. Although it may not be a guarantee, it would&#8217;ve made the chances of him suffering a lot less likely.

He too, is a pup that was the result of 2 family pets being thrown together just like you&#8217;ve done without any thought at all and it angers me so much. Over the next few months/years, God only knows how much i will have to spend of vets, insurance, hydrotherapy, and I may have to put him through a risky anaesthetic. There&#8217;s no guarantee this will make him okay. You do realise that don&#8217;t you? He comes first, our beloved boy, and I have to make a decision as to what is best for him - that could mean we have to have him put to sleep if we can&#8217;t fix him - Do you even understand how heartbreaking that is? To even have to have that in our minds when our boy isn&#8217;t even yet a year old!

The breeder? She&#8217;s about as useless as a chocolate teapot - doesn&#8217;t reply to my texts off any phone (although I can see she&#8217;s read them), doesn&#8217;t answer my calls, isn&#8217;t any help at all. Doesn&#8217;t give a toss quite frankly. She made her money off the litter and is happy.

I hope that none of the puppies you&#8217;re breeding suffer in this way. As an owner, it is absolutely devastating to watch, and the decisions we make, will impact not only him, but us forever&#8230;all because of someone carelessly breeding just as you are.
How can you consciously allow this litter to go ahead knowing that there is a very real possibility the pups will suffer the same way as my boy? There is still the option of an emergency spay I would&#8217;ve thought. Although it&#8217;s not a nice thought, have you even stopped for a second to think that you could possibly be putting potential puppy buyers through exactly what I&#8217;m going through now. What if they can&#8217;t afford vet treatment? Thats either another dog needlessly PTS or dumped in a rescue centre.
I also would like it to be said that I love my little fella. Wouldn&#8217;t change him for the world. He&#8217;s taught me a lot about myself in this past 9 months we&#8217;ve had him, yet every day I look at him and my heart breaks a little bit more.

You are not only creating an experiment using your dogs - living breathing creatures, you&#8217;re potentially damaging peoples lives playing around like this. Please, take a step back and seriously think about what you&#8217;re doing/have the potential to do here."


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

No I didn't ring anyone up about our cat being pregnant and with a male.

Thats very sad over the puppy our Charlie is almost 1 too and to think he'd have to go in a crate etc is sad.
Lola will be straight at the vets as soon as she can after the puppies are born and we will want to stay in contact with all owners that buy our puppies and we will do contracts with the puppies.
We are taking Lola back to the vets next week to be checked over again but at the moment she is healthy and doing great


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

It's not too late to get an emergency spey and stop such irresponsible behaviour now, you obviously cared little for any of your pets if you are breeding so indiscriminately!! It's idiots like you that leave others like me picking up the pieces and having to pay for it, I've neutered well over 40 cats in my area alone because morons like you thought it would be cute to have puppies/kittens! Some of my rescue cats were from idiots too who have serious long term health issues which cost me a bomb to keep them happy and healthy, just because they couldn't be arsed to take them to a vets to get them neutered!
I've also had rescue dogs from stupid people who thought nothing of the future of their pets and only in making a fast buck, it costs a fortune for new owners when their puppy has health issues that could have been tested for - try explaining to the children of those owners why their pet dog is in pain because someone thought it would be cute to let their kids watch the miracle of birth!!!!!:cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
My mum worked with an idiot who thought like you do with her 2 labs, both only a year old and another whoops litter, the poor puppy had 14 puppies, all were runty pathetic things which when they realised just how much work they were and how much they were costing her she got rid of them at 6 weeks old, she couldn't even give them away as no-one wanted them, a few now have serious health issues and are looking for compensation - all for the sake of having some cute puppies!!!!!!!!! Headdesk!!!!!!!:cursing: And if you have all these supposed family members wanting kittens/puppies, you watch how many will actually follow through when they stop and think what it will cost them and just how long a commitment they are letting themselves in for, not to mention what will happen to their beige carpets and sofas - I bet half will come up with an excuse not to have one!

With all the information at your fingertips in this day and age there is absolutely NO excuse what so ever for such disregard for their pets welfare and life, people like you make me feel so angry, it's not just the pets that need neutering!!!!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> No I didn't ring anyone up about our cat being pregnant and with a male.
> 
> Thats very sad over the puppy our Charlie is almost 1 too and to think he'd have to go in a crate etc is sad.
> Lola will be straight at the vets as soon as she can after the puppies are born and we will want to stay in contact with all owners that buy our puppies and we will do contracts with the puppies.
> We are taking Lola back to the vets next week to be checked over again but at the moment she is healthy and doing great


So will your puppies be KC registered? I think you can only draw up official contracts if they are registered, and if both parents are not registered the pups can't be either. So that puts paid to any contracts, although at this stage I feel you are only telling us all what you think we'd like to hear anyway


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> So will your puppies be KC registered? I think you can only draw up official contracts if they are registered, and if both parents are not registered the pups can't be either. So that puts paid to any contracts, although at this stage I feel you are only telling us all what you think we'd like to hear anyway


You can use an RSPCA contract without the dogs being KC registered. I doubt whether it's considered legally binding, however it's pretty through and it's much better than no contract at all.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lizz1155 said:


> You can use an RSPCA contract without the dogs being KC registered. I doubt whether it's considered legally binding, however it's pretty through and it's much better than no contract at all.


Ah ok. See, I wasn't even aware of that. Can't see your average BYB being aware either.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Ah ok. See, I wasn't even aware of that. Can't see your average BYB being aware either.


Yeah, my dog's BYB of a breeder wasn't aware of them. And when I pointed them out, all I got was "oh, I didn't have time to read it" :thumbdown: :mad2:


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Lola our pregnant Labrador is doing well she's putting on weight fast now and we have the Whelping box coming next week. And we are going to get a pen too. Just thought I'd give you a update any more advice
Would be great


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You're going to have to be very honest about the parents of the pups when looking for new homes and explain that you weren't aware of the health tests. If you can put together some sort of puppy pack to explain this, and also put together general information about Labradors as well as any worming/flea treatment info, that would be a good thing to do. I can send you copies of my contracts and puppy packs if that would be of any help. 

Did you buy yourself a copy of the book of the bitch yet? 

Lots of clean towels to hand, lots of clean vet bed as well, I bought a fresh roll and would do so for every litter. I have the plain backed stuff as the rubber backed stuff apparently isn't very good after washing.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> *You're going to have to be very honest about the parents of the pups when looking for new homes and explain that you weren't aware of the health tests. * If you can put together some sort of puppy pack to explain this, and also put together general information about Labradors as well as any worming/flea treatment info, that would be a good thing to do. I can send you copies of my contracts and puppy packs if that would be of any help.
> 
> Did you buy yourself a copy of the book of the bitch yet?
> 
> Lots of clean towels to hand, lots of clean vet bed as well, I bought a fresh roll and would do so for every litter. I have the plain backed stuff as the rubber backed stuff apparently isn't very good after washing.


Agreed. Gary, you will almost certainly not be able to sell this litter to informed buyers, because they will demand evidence of health testing and have no interest in your babies.

Therefore it is up to you to be honest with the new owners and educate them about the lack of health testing and its possible implications for their new puppy.

I hope all goes well xx


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes we've bought the book waiting for it to arrive.
We won't tell the new owners any lies just the truth. When we bought Lola and Charlie we was told nothing.
The copies would be great thank you


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Yes we've bought the book waiting for it to arrive.
> We won't tell the new owners any lies just the truth. When we bought Lola and Charlie we was told nothing.
> The copies would be great thank you


Have you made enough posts to send private messages? If so, pm me your email address and I will send them over the weekend.


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

I see that the OP is still going ahead with this and has totally ignored all of the very sensible advice here. 
So that's another god knows how many pups passed on by a back yard breeder to god knows who, and who we may also expect "want to have the experience of birth" and there we are back to square one...
is it any wonder there are so many unwanted pet ads on Scumtree and dogs in rescue???:mad2:


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

PBR1 said:


> I see that the OP is still going ahead with this and has totally ignored all of the very sensible advice here.
> So that's another god knows how many pups passed on by a back yard breeder to god knows who, and who we may also expect "want to have the experience of birth" and there we are back to square one...
> is it any wonder there are so many unwanted pet ads on Scumtree and dogs in rescue???:mad2:


the bitch is now 6 weeks gone. as much as i agree with your opinion on the need for ethical breeding rather than the nearest dog to the bitch, it's a bit late for that now... not being rude here, but apart from venting, what were you hoping to achieve if anything?
yes, a mis-mate would have been my first choice without doubt in the early stages, but i personally wouldn't have wanted to use it at the later stages as it seems rather unpleasant for the bitch when given late (i know we have a fair few members on this thread that can correct me if i'm wrong about that). 
but he is now wanting to put together puppy packs complete with health info and breed info as well as contracts... fair bit better than most who start a thread like this!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Have you made enough posts to send private messages? If so, pm me your email address and I will send them over the weekend.


tried to rep you for this but i need to spread the love first 
but my comment would have been... 'you never fail to restore my faith in the willingness to help of some people!' :thumbsup:


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

As everyone has already given you advice re: breeding, I'll give you some different advice.

You are aware that using a mobile phone or other hand held device while driving is illegal, right? 

I hope you have plenty of ££ for potential vet bills for complications with the puppies AND kittens, ££ to neuter them all, and ££ for fines and increased insurance premiums when you're caught filming videos while driving. 

I truly despair.....


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Little P said:


> As everyone has already given you advice re: breeding, I'll give you some different advice.
> 
> You are aware that using a mobile phone or other hand held device while driving is illegal, right?
> 
> ...


It's a gopro so it's fixed to the car.

Not sure how you do private messages but our email is
[email protected]


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> It's a gopro so it's fixed to the car.
> 
> Not sure how you do private messages but our email is
> [email protected]


Will dig out the documents this weekend, they are on a storage device.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Garys2201 said:


> It's a gopro so it's fixed to the car.
> 
> Not sure how you do private messages but our email is
> [email protected]


It's not fixed because you're moving it about. Thus it's a handheld device.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Will dig out the documents this weekend, they are on a storage device.


Thank you that would be great


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Little P said:


> It's not fixed because you're moving it about. Thus it's a handheld device.


What video are you talking about?


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

It's on a fixed tripod that turns that's why I moved it about


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> the bitch is now 6 weeks gone. as much as i agree with your opinion on the need for ethical breeding rather than the nearest dog to the bitch, it's a bit late for that now... not being rude here, but apart from venting, what were you hoping to achieve if anything?
> yes, a mis-mate would have been my first choice without doubt in the early stages, but i personally wouldn't have wanted to use it at the later stages as it seems rather unpleasant for the bitch when given late (i know we have a fair few members on this thread that can correct me if i'm wrong about that).
> but he is now wanting to put together puppy packs complete with health info and breed info as well as contracts... fair bit better than most who start a thread like this!


He started this thread 3 weeks ago so it wouldn't have been too late then I believe. However my point is that the OP has not really commented on the advice given he's just ignored it, paid lip service to the after sales process and gone ahead anyway
If he genuinely is going to be responsible for those pups for their lifetimes then I will retract my comments but something tells me that once those pups are sold on interest will wain quite quickly. Call me cynical but it's the same old cliche


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

PBR1 said:


> * He started this thread 3 weeks ago so it wouldn't have been too late then I believe.* However my point is that the OP has not really commented on the advice given he's just ignored it, paid lip service to the after sales process and gone ahead anyway
> If he genuinely is going to be responsible for those pups for their lifetimes then I will retract my comments but something tells me that once those pups are sold on interest will wain quite quickly. Call me cynical but it's the same old cliche


i agree, which is why i asked him to really consider it, but he didn't and the pups will be happening. what i would hate was for him to Stop taking all the help (that he is currently seeming very grateful for) out of spite since people are still banging their heads off walls at him. 
i'd rather look at the positives in this case since nothing else is going to prove useful imo...

(but do get where you are coming from PBR1)


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> i agree, which is why i asked him to really consider it, but he didn't and the pups will be happening. what i would hate was for him to Stop taking all the help (that he is currently seeming very grateful for) out of spite since people are still banging their heads off walls at him.
> i'd rather look at the positives in this case since nothing else is going to prove useful imo...
> 
> (but do get where you are coming from PBR1)


Fair comment!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've not forgotten Gary, just had a busy weekend, will try and dig out the storage device a bit later and email copies over.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

That's fine thank you for saying you will do this as it will be very helpful and give us some idea


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just this minute dug them out and sent them over for you, have also suggested how to edit and simplify obviously to take into account the lack of endorsements and KC registration etc.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

I haven't received the email yet.
But the email is [email protected]
Thank you once again


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Definitely sent this morning to that address, are you sure it's not .com?


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Hotmail has an unusual policy of filtering out some emails which it assumes are junk - sometimes they don't even make it to your "junk" folder, they just don't turn up at all. Which is really helpful  

The issue seems to be particularly bad with emails containing attachments being sent to new addresses. One way to get around it is to send an attachment-free email, add the person as a contact then send any attachments. 

But generally, it's just easier to use a different email address.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for that, if it doesn't arrive will try sending an email with no attachments, see if that works!


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for that, if it doesn't arrive will try sending an email with no attachments, see if that works!


Thank you once again for sending the email helps greatly.
We are buying the Whelping box next week we've seen some on eBay would these be ok? 
She's roughly due 9th-10th July


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Thank you once again for sending the email helps greatly.
> We are buying the Whelping box next week we've seen some on eBay would these be ok?
> She's roughly due 9th-10th July


What sort of boxes are they? If second hand, I would only buy one of the plastic ones that can be dismantled and thoroughly disinfected, or a brand new cardboard one. That said, I know some have had mixed *success* with the cardboard ones, let's just say there's a lot of fluids initially! Personally, I'd buy a brand new one from the website I suggested, then stick it up on ebay and see what you can get back for it.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi the Whelping box arrived today but it doesn't say how high or low to put the pig rails we brought a 48x48 large disposable Whelping box . Lola is due to have her puppies any day. We also brought fleece liners and a Whelping kit.
Any advice on the pig rails would be great. Just to add it's for Labrador puppies 
Thank you


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Don't worry we've done it. We are all ready now wish us luck I hope all goes ok


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Don't worry we've done it. We are all ready now wish us luck I hope all goes ok


I do hope your girl comes through this ok, and I hope now you will have her spayed once the pups have all gone. It's a shame you didn't come across this forum before hand to ask the question before all this happened, you're not the first, and you won't be the last. Anyway, I do hope all goes well for your girl.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I do hope your girl comes through this ok, and I hope now you will have her spayed once the pups have all gone. It's a shame you didn't come across this forum before hand to ask the question before all this happened, you're not the first, and you won't be the last. Anyway, I do hope all goes well for your girl.


Thank you we are getting her sprayed as soon as possible.
Lola is leaking clear fluid has been since last night and very restless has been panting and pacing so I know she is at the start of labour me and one of my older children having been sitting with her all night. She drunk water but won't eat but know this is normal. She seems ok
In her self we are keeping a close eye on her.
Thank you for all of the advice over the last month. I will update you all I have vets number if I need it


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Lola did great she has had 10 puppies 5 black and 5 yellow she is settled in her Whelping box with them all.
Thank you for all of the advice


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thank goodness mum and pups are ok! I would imagine your choc boy carries yellow, I'm not great at colour genetics, but that'd be my guess.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thank goodness mum and pups are ok! I would imagine your choc boy carries yellow, I'm not great at colour genetics, but that'd be my guess.


Thank you yes she's doing well been up and had wee and had food and water 
I did read up
On the colours but didn't really understand it.
But a lot of people said she'd only have black puppies


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Thank you yes she's doing well been up and had wee and had food and water
> I did read up
> On the colours but didn't really understand it.
> But a lot of people said she'd only have black puppies


That's because it's not common for chocolates to carry yellow, as most breeders don't mix the two together. It does happen, my bitch carries yellow, and had what's called a rainbow litter, she's chocolate carrying yellow, and the stud dog was black carrying yellow and chocolate. I ended up with two of each colour, will dig out a couple of pics. If your boy hadn't carried yellow, then the litter would have been all black, and it's just coincidence that you've got a good number of each colour.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> Lola did great she has had 10 puppies 5 black and 5 yellow she is settled in her Whelping box with them all.
> Thank you for all of the advice


That was quick! Pleased mum and pups are doing well.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Some pics from a meet up when the pups were about a year old.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Awww they are absolutely gorgeous how old are they now? we was hoping she'd have chocolate too but they are so beautiful. One of them looks a fox red colour.
We did a video I'll upload it soon and post the link on here for you all to see. She's done ever so well


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Awww they are absolutely gorgeous how old are they now? we was hoping she'd have chocolate too but they are so beautiful. One of them looks a fox red colour.
> We did a video I'll upload it soon and post the link on here for you all to see. She's done ever so well


I would doubt if you have a pup as dark a shade to be called fox red, if you post a pic I will tell you. For your girl to have had a chocolate pup, she would have had to carry choc, so to have had a yellow carrying choc boy, and a choc carrying yellow girl, the odds weren't high.

My pups were two in April, I have mum flat out next to me, and the bitch pup I kept back flat out next to my fleet.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Here's the link to Lola having her puppies she did so well and has been so good with them 
Lola the Labrador having her puppies - YouTube


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Here's the link to Lola having her puppies she did so well and has been so good with them
> Lola the Labrador having her puppies - YouTube


No fox reds in there, yellows, and one or two stronger coloured yellows but no fox reds


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> Here's the link to Lola having her puppies she did so well and has been so good with them
> Lola the Labrador having her puppies - YouTube


So much for taking the advice not to have an audience present during the birth.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you. So I say darker yellow one.
We did try to keep the children away but it was in the morning that she went into labour so very hard but she did have quiet time and she has got quiet time now


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Found the video fascinating, nature is amazing!


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Fluffster said:


> Found the video fascinating, nature is amazing!


Thank you we tired our best but it was quite difficult with the children and the time of day she had them. If it had of been night time it would if been so quiet but Lola is used to her home and she seemed absoulety fine. She love the children


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

What food have you got in to start weaning pups? Pays to be organised, it's a few weeks off yet, I weaned mine straight onto kibble, but what I did was blitz it up in a food processor so it was like a porridge consistency, soaks down much more quickly then rather than waiting for bigger pieces to soak down. I also added a bit of milk in there (powdered replacement stuff) as it was there, and contains great nutrition, I just used it up when weaning them, the pups absolutely went mad for it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Here's the link to Lola having her puppies she did so well and has been so good with them
> Lola the Labrador having her puppies - YouTube


With the collars you can cut them down the middle and make them smaller so they fit the pups necks better  trim off any excess from the top once around pups neck (make sure its lose) glad they are doing well


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

What sort of person films their girl at the most private time of her life .


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Cay said:


> What sort of person films their girl at the most private time of her life .


And lets kids run around, not giving the poor bitch any privacy or peace - I don't care what time of day it is you organise something like having kids looked after by friends.

Poor bitch - and a video of how NOT to breed.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Sorry, but agree with everything that rocco33 and cay say, far too much handling of the pups while she was giving birth, I can't believe what i have just watched, why the need to put it on You Tube is beyond me.
However after reading the whole of your post I'm not suprised.
But I do hope your bitch and her babies continue to do well, and that she gets some peace and quite she deserves.

I do hope you will having her spayed.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

i have never bred a dog before and never would. but even to me the amount of people getting in with her touching her and the puppies and just generally being around her was unreal!! shame on you!!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Good job the bitch has a nice nature. Another first time mum may have become over protective and harmed or even killed the pups. Just compounding the errors.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Lola is a brilliant mum and she's part of our family like Charlie the dad is we would never of got so close if we thought she'd harm the puppies they are all putting on weight and doing great. We have homes for 6 of them already and we have a lady doing the home checks.
Here a video of them the other day 
Labrador puppies weigh in and how there getting on - YouTube


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Garys2201 said:


> Lola is a brilliant mum and she's part of our family like Charlie the dad is *we would never of got so close if we thought she'd harm the puppies* they are all putting on weight and doing great. We have homes for 6 of them already and we have a lady doing the home checks.
> Here a video of them the other day
> Labrador puppies weigh in and how there getting on - YouTube


This is her first time doing anything like this though (right?). How could you possibly know how she'd react?
No she didn't harm the puppies which is of course good, but having her in such a busy situation in an already very stressful time is just thoughtless tbh


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, we can probably all agree, this is absolutely not the best way to go about planning and having a litter, or even rearing a litter, in fact this thread in many ways is a great advert about how not to do things. The one thing that is good, is that the OP has listened to some of the advice, and will hopefully be chalking this one down to experience, and lack of research. No this litter shouldn't have happened, and despite the advice to find a quiet corner, they didn't, and things could very much have turned out badly. An upset bitch might well have abandoned the pups or worse, and just for the record, I personally would never allow any of my other dogs near the others after she'd had a litter. It really is asking for trouble, not just because of the upset it may cause to the bitch, but also the risk of infection. The whelping box does seem to be in a bit of a *communal* area Gary, another cause for worry as everyone walking by has probably been somewhere during the day, this is why the advice is to find a quiet spot, and give the bitch some peace and security. I know horse bolted, gate etc, but those are the reasons why, and again why folks are picking up on it and commenting, worth mentioning so that anyone else lurking and reading, may be wondering why all the comments are there about people wandering past all the time, the other dog being there etc. 

Great that you've found six homes already, can I ask who is doing the home checks? Sounds like someone involved with a rescue? 

Also, did you see the bit I put about starting to wean the pups?


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Excellent advice as usual SL, I've been watching this thread for some time now, havent commented as I've never had dealings with breeding so I had no right to say anything, but I have just watched the video and it upset me at the start seeing the mother so obviously stressed (lip curling) when the other dog came in....I thought 'oh dear me!' surely this shouldnt happen letting other dogs near? be it the father or not....


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

This is Lola's first litter we know our dog really well she will be 3 in December. 
I would like advice on what food to wean the puppies on please.
The box is very big so the kitchen is the best place as we can shut the kitchen off like we do. So Lola and her puppies can have peace and quiet.
Yes the lady that is doing the home checks is from rescue so I know the homes will be vetted properly. The homes are all local so we can keep in touch


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Are you still planning on spaying her after this?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> This is Lola's first litter we know our dog really well she will be 3 in December.
> I would like advice on what food to wean the puppies on please.
> The box is very big so the kitchen is the best place as we can shut the kitchen off like we do. So Lola and her puppies can have peace and quiet.
> Yes the lady that is doing the home checks is from rescue so I know the homes will be vetted properly. The homes are all local so we can keep in touch


Really? Which rescue is that Gary?

Oh, and if you really are using rescue then why don't you ask them about weaning? All the labrador rescues I know are mainly run by show/working folk who also breed. They would have lots of knowledge which I'm surprised they are not already giving you!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Can I just say that I find it bad enough that you are breeding in this way, but to advertise your videos of her on here is distasteful in the extreme. You are obviously making money on those videos through advertising so you think by putting them on a pet forum breeding page people will view them. Well, you are probably right. You seem to have given no thought to your bitch and giving her peace during her whelping, despite being advised to (you did the same to your poor cat that you bred from) so what do you do? you seem to be making as many videos as you can and posting the links on here so people will view them. I'm sorry I don't believe a word of the bullsh*t you are coming out with - and we known you have lied - every bit of this is about making money, including the videos - it stinks.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm like MyMillie, I have exasperatedly followed this thread but not commented as I never intend to breed and know nothing about it but after reading comments posted after your bitch has whelped, I could honestly rip my hair out. 

I haven't watched the damned video of the pups birth, I cannot fathom why any novice would feel the need to record such a thing. 

You have been given REAMS of advice from you first posted and you have seemingly ignored the vast majority of it - advice that you asked for and were given by those that know what they are talking about. In particular, sleeping lion has - to my eyes bitten her tongue and offered invaluable information, purely for the sake of keeping your bitch and her pups healthy and safe (I'm repping you SL, as you've the patience of a saint) 

As others have said, you are darn lucky your bitch didn't turn on the pups, I have posted elsewhere that my mother in laws beloved bitch ate hers, for no apparent reason. What a lovely sight that would have been for your children! 

Any rescue worth it's salt will be brimming with info about weaning and anything else you will need to know, god knows they clean up enough ill thought out litters to be experts in that field. 

I truly hope your bitch recuperates well and the pups find good homes is the only positive thing I have to say really.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

It's a cat rescue lady that I've spoken to and she's putting me in touch with someone that does home checks for dogs.
We aren't making any money out of making the videos.
If you'd all rather I'll stop posting I just wanted to update you as some of you have given good advice.
The kitchen is the best place and safest place as the children aren't in there most of the time only when they get their meals to eat in go into the dining room.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Just repeating my previous question, is your intention still to have her spayed after this?

The fact that you have recently referred to this as her "first litter" made me wonder...


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes defiantly getting her sprayed ASAP


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Can I ask, as you say you have six homes for these puppies already
Are these people buying these puppies without seeing them ? if not does that mean you have allowed these people in to see these babies already.
I do hope not. I couldn't belive it when you said on that second video that you had taken her for a walk, I hope you meant just in the garden.
However once again i do hope your bitch and her babies continue to thrive,bless her she looked so stressed on that video.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

What you should do is take the videos off of her and then stop posting unless you are actually going to listen .


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

I have sent them pictures and videos of the puppies but they have put deposits down for them. They know the puppies are KC reg or the parents haven't had scores but they do know what lovely healthy dogs Charlie and Lola are.
The only reason we took Lola for a walk was because she kept seeing Charlie our other labrador going and she kept barking and crying because she wanted to go so we rang the vets up and they said as long as the puppies have just fed and she's only out for 10-15 minutes that would be fine. We also live next door to the park where we take the dogs and when I mean next door I mean you walk out the front door and the park is there


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Well said rocco33 and Cay, totally agree with you, because they just don't listen, and I can only think that the videos are to advertise their puppies.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> I have sent them pictures and videos of the puppies *but they have put deposits down *for them. They know the puppies are KC reg or the parents haven't had scores *but they do know what lovely healthy dogs Charlie and Lola are.*The only reason we took Lola for a walk was because she kept seeing Charlie our other labrador going and she kept barking and crying because she wanted to go so we rang the vets up and they said as long as the puppies have just fed and she's only out for 10-15 minutes that would be fine. We also live next door to the park where we take the dogs and *when I mean next door I mean you walk out the front door and the park is there*


Mmm - do the benefits office know you're getting an income from selling puppies and kittens? And the tax man - you need to declare it as income.

You have no idea that they are healthy - you've had no health tests done 

So a park where other dogs walk? possibly unvaccinated ones (you would never know) and how can you be sure she won't bring virus or bacteria back with her? mmm.....


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Ok - the pups and mum seem to be doing well but there is some stuff you'll need to be thinking about.

This is a big litter and you may need to wean the pups earlier than usual ( I would guess at around 2 1/2 to 3 weeks ) weigh them daily to make sure they are all thriving and gaining weight. I use Naturediet puppy food mixed with a little warm water and mashed until it is very soft but there are a variety of early foods suitable for weaning. Offer clean drinking water too.

Once they have started weaning Lola will no longer clean up after them - 10 pups will make a LOT of mess and you'll need a good supply of newspaper as the whelping box will need changing many many times a day.

They will also quickly grow out of their box - you'll need a puppy pen , this is the one I use and would recommend

Dog Health - puppy pen run k700 k900

This does take up a great deal of room so you may have to think about setting it up in another room ( with an easily cleaned flooring ! )

Your pups will need to be wormed from 3 weeks, I use Drontal but your vet will advise on this. If mum was not wormed before whelping she's likely to have already passed round worms on to the pups via her milk so she'll need to be done too.

Young pups make a huge amount of noise especially first thing in the early morning and you have 10 - if you have neighbours it might be a good idea to go round and explain in advance 

Don't let your other dog near Lola and her pups while they are still so small - this will distress her and she may try and hide them by lying on them or moving them - pups have been killed in this way. She needs peace and quiet during these early days although she will welcome the attention of the people she loves she should not have a stream of others interfering with her puppies. Do feed her up she'll be using up lots of calories feeding the pups and will need several highly nutritious meals daily.

That's probably enough to get your head round for now - come back if you need more help or advice.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Bijou said:


> Ok - the pups and mum seem to be doing well but there is some stuff you'll need to be thinking about.
> 
> This is a big litter and you may need to wean the pups earlier than usual ( I would guess at around 2 1/2 to 3 weeks ) weigh them daily to make sure they are all thriving and gaining weight. I use Naturediet puppy food mixed with a little warm water and mashed until it is very soft but there are a variety of early foods suitable for weaning. Offer clean drinking water too.
> 
> ...


Awesome post.

Helpful to the owners AND the dam AND the pups AND everyone else living in the household.

And devoid of unneccessary, pointless holier-than-thou judgement.

A winner. Thank you.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't know what you're feeding Lola, but she will need a diet high in calcium and fat. 

Feeding ten will drain her reserves and calcium is particularly important.

I know it's difficult leaving her behind when you walk, but I never walked my nursing bitches for three weeks after they delivered, as the risk of Mum carrying a virus or infection back to the pups isn't worth taking.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> I have sent them pictures and videos of the puppies but they have put deposits down for them. They know the puppies are KC reg or the parents haven't had scores but they do know what lovely healthy dogs Charlie and Lola are.
> The only reason we took Lola for a walk was because she kept seeing Charlie our other labrador going and she kept barking and crying because she wanted to go so we rang the vets up and they said as long as the puppies have just fed and she's only out for 10-15 minutes that would be fine. We also live next door to the park where we take the dogs and when I mean next door I mean you walk out the front door and the park is there


This means that even if they fail a home check, by law you have to sell them a puppy.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> Mmm - do the benefits office know you're getting an income from selling puppies and kittens? And the tax man - you need to declare it as income.
> 
> You have no idea that they are healthy - you've had no health tests done
> 
> So a park where other dogs walk? possibly unvaccinated ones (you would never know) and how can you be sure she won't bring virus or bacteria back with her? mmm.....


Why are you saying benefits I work nights as a hgv1 driver.
We are taking all of the puppies to be vet checked.
I told the vets where we were taking Lola and they said that was fine as long as it was just for 10-15 mins


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Bijou said:


> Ok - the pups and mum seem to be doing well but there is some stuff you'll need to be thinking about.
> 
> This is a big litter and you may need to wean the pups earlier than usual ( I would guess at around 2 1/2 to 3 weeks ) weigh them daily to make sure they are all thriving and gaining weight. I use Naturediet puppy food mixed with a little warm water and mashed until it is very soft but there are a variety of early foods suitable for weaning. Offer clean drinking water too.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this information this helps alot


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Bijou said:


> Ok - the pups and mum seem to be doing well but there is some stuff you'll need to be thinking about.
> 
> This is a big litter and you may need to wean the pups earlier than usual ( I would guess at around 2 1/2 to 3 weeks ) weigh them daily to make sure they are all thriving and gaining weight. I use Naturediet puppy food mixed with a little warm water and mashed until it is very soft but there are a variety of early foods suitable for weaning. Offer clean drinking water too.
> 
> ...


Thank you also for saying what puppy pen would be good. We shall buy this one. What size should I get thank you


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> This means that even if they fail a home check, by law you have to sell them a puppy.


No - you simply return their deposit


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Bijou said:


> No - you simply return their deposit


Thank you we want the puppies to go to good homes so will be saying if they can't keep them for any reason they can return them to us as we don't want them being passed around


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

For the the extra £10 I'd go for the higher one ( 90 cms ) .


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

Bijou said:


> No - you simply return their deposit


When you pay a deposit that is legally binding from what I have read and it is why a lot of breeders never ask for them so that if something crops up about the buyer they can back out .


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Really looks a lot like a BYB set up to me and that is never good 

You should have taken her for the mismate jab


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Bijou said:


> No - you simply return their deposit





Bijou said:


> For the the extra £10 I'd go for the higher one ( 90 cms ) .


Thank you. The pen looks ideal. And will that be big enough for all of them


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> Why are you saying benefits I work nights as a hgv1 driver.
> We are taking all of the puppies to be vet checked.
> I told the vets where we were taking Lola and they said that was fine as long as it was just for 10-15 mins


If you don't want the world to know what you do, maybe you shouldn't go on TV to tell everyone about it 

BTW - what do you plan on spraying your dog with and why?


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Yes Gary, I too watched the T.V. programme last night called 16 kids and Counting, very interesting.
But I do hope your bitch and her puppies will be alright, and that you have the decency to have her spayed, although I very much doubt it.
But perhaps you could prove me wrong.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes and that was filmed back in 2012 a lot of things have changed since then. I work now for one and did you all not realise a lot of cut and editing go's in in TV.
We loved filming for the show and it was a great experience. Did you see Lola?
As usual she was with the kids in on the action with our cat.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We are getting Lola sprayed and Charlie neutered we know it would be unfair all round if Lola had more puppies. She's really taken to being a mummy and she is such a good mummy. I can promise you all she will be sprayed


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Garys2201 said:


> We are getting Lola sprayed and Charlie neutered we know it would be unfair all round if Lola had more puppies. She's really taken to being a mummy and she is such a good mummy. I can promise you all she will be sprayed


It's called spaying, spraying involves covering her with a substance 

You can opt for something a little less invasive, that simply removes the ovaries, there are a few options, same for dogs. Have a word with your vet about the options.


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We will do what ever is best for Lola


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> We will do what ever is best for Lola


Really? That will be a nice change for her!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

*



We will do what ever is best for Lola

Click to expand...

*


Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Really? That will be a nice change for her!


OBYL has a point. NOTHING you have done so far has been best for Lola - all you have done is from a selfish point - what is best for YOU - you have used your dog for your amusement and lied to cover up inconsistencies.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> OBYL has a point. NOTHING you have done so far has been best for Lola - all you have done is from a selfish point - what is best for YOU - you have used your dog for your amusement and lied to cover up inconsistencies.


Totally agree with rocco33.
You haven't given any thought for what is best for your dog, just yourself.
What sort of person woud put a video of their dog giving birth on You tube which has up to now 329 viewings, along with your other 200 + variuos videos


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

I doubt the OP will be back as he seems only interested in using this forum as a cheap substitutefor vet advice


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

PBR1 said:


> I doubt the OP will be back as he seems only interested in using this forum as a cheap substitutefor vet advice


I totally agree, now he has been exposed for what he is.
I just hope that Lola and her puppies continue to well, and that they do get her spayed, but I don't think so.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

To be fair, someone who has 16 kids ( or 9 ) 'and counting' is hardly going to see an issue with bringing more puppies into the world! The more the merrier, right?


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## Garys2201 (Apr 6, 2014)

We will be spaying her and she will not have anymore puppies. our dogs mean a lot to us just because we have 10
Children in our house it doesn't mean we don't love them. 
If anyone wants to see an update of the puppies and kittens here's a link but don't look if you think we are only putting videos on of them to make money as that's a joke. This is our YouTube channel that has loads of videos of our family and our cats and dogs are part of our family
Kittens 1 month old today and labrador puppies 1 week old update - YouTube


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Garys2201 said:


> our cats and dogs are part of our family


It's to be hoped that you treat the human members of your family with a damn sight more consideration than you do your animals.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

I truly am saying this not to be disrespectful and I know you had to do a 'crash course' to learn about what to do when these puppies were due Gary, but I really do feel you should be taking a 'crash course' on 'Dog body language' too.... did you not see how stressed your dog was when your child was stroking the pups.... she was doing slight lip curls and yawning, I have to say I am a little concerned about all this 
Surely the mother and pups need peace and quiet at feed times?....


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Gary, please listen to the advice about giving your Bitch peace and quiet with her pups.

The last thing you need to do is cause her stress and, whilst I have no doubt that she loves your kids, them handling her pups right now will really upset her.

Whenever I had a bitch nursing pups, my Sons were told quite emphatically that they were not to try and touch them. If they had friends in, they had to stay well away and not even approach Mum and her pups.

Find a quiet place for Lola and her puppies and make it clear to your children that she is to be left alone.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> To be fair, someone who has 16 kids ( or 9 ) 'and counting' is hardly going to see an issue with bringing more puppies into the world! The more the merrier, right?





WeedySeaDragon said:


> It's to be hoped that you treat the human members of your family with a damn sight more consideration than you do your animals.


Whatever the views on this person having bred his dog
being rude and ill tempered about his family and life is really not on


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Whatever the views on this person having bred his dog
> being rude and ill tempered about his family and life is really not on


I really have to agree with you there, some of these remarks are rather personal.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Whatever the views on this person having bred his dog
> being rude and ill tempered about his family and life is really not on


He's come onto a forum of dog lovers, completely disregarded a lot of excellent advice, shown very little consideration for wellbeing of his pets and is now using this thread to push his videos.

It's not surprising people, me included, are running very short of patience.


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