# Banding puppy tails



## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Hello, 
I had a friend band my 4 mini aussie tails with round elastic string at 2 days old. They are 5 days old today and last night 2 of the puppies had wounds on their tails and his morning those two pups have lost their tails and mom ate them...? Is that normal? They did not fall off at the band, there is a little bit of tail left to fall off. I am putting iodine and neosporin on them 2-3x a day. Is there more I should be doing? I was told the wounds are normal, especially because the dam is a first time mom and overzealous with licking.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

View media item 76412
View media item 76411
View media item 76413
Here are pictures of the two tails and all of the pups.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

its never a good idea to band the tail, it can become infected and painful for the dog. Tail docking is becoming a thing of the past, they are born with a tail, let them keep it. Ear cropping is also going out of style, more and more vets are now refusing to do ear and tail docking because it has no health benefits, its just cosmetic.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I may be wrong but tail docking is illegal in the UK I believe, except for working dogs and even then must be carried out by a vet.
I assume you aren't in the UK @Keta_da_dawg ?


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Linda2147 said:


> its never a good idea to band the tail, it can become infected and painful for the dog. Tail docking is becoming a thing of the past, they are born with a tail, let them keep it. Ear cropping is also going out of style, more and more vets are now refusing to do ear and tail docking because it has no health benefits, its just cosmetic.


After watching tail docking of dogs and claw removal of cats at vets offices while working there I knew I didn't want to do that to my pups because of the blood. The banding of the tails resulted in one squeak and they have not shown any sign of discomfort since. I was told that there was not a real risk of infection if I applied the iodine and that the tails would fall off in once piece with the band and be done. That is not what's happening and that's why I am concerned. I want my pups to look like aussies and not border collies, I love the aussie nub butt!
Circumcision is more cosmetic than medically necessary and I will do to all of my sons. Just as I would dock any other aussie tails if I were to breed again.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> I may be wrong but tail docking is illegal in the UK I believe, except for working dogs and even then must be carried out by a vet.
> I assume you aren't in the UK @Keta_da_dawg ?


You are not wrong lymorelynn, it is illegal in the U.K., has been for quite a few years now. Unless like you say they are working dogs.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

lymorelynn said:


> I may be wrong but tail docking is illegal in the UK I believe, except for working dogs and even then must be carried out by a vet.
> I assume you aren't in the UK @Keta_da_dawg ?


No I am not.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Normally, when docking was legal, the tails were docked in small breeds using an incision. Only the large breeds with thick tails, such as Rottweillers, Boxers, etc., were banded.

The tails should have fallen off at the band.

Are you in this Country? If you are, you do know you could be prosecuted for docking those pups?


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

I am in the USA. Tail docking is not illegal here and I had a mini aussie breeder put the bands on the tails. She lives several hours away and can't come now to see the pups. It is pretty common here to band tails and it is considered "painless" docking and safer than taking puppies to the vet and risk them catching ill and the bleeding that goes with cutting off tails. Vets won't give pain meds to pups so young and many won't give antibiotics because it will kill off the good bacteria in the gut and cause diarrhea. I know of people who band miniature poodle tails so it's not only large breeds.


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## ElvieMogs (Mar 22, 2012)

Unlike dogs your sons have free will and the ability to express their opinions. Why not let them choose for themselves whether they want circumcision. As you say it's largely cosmetic so they won't come to any harm if you don't have it done in infancy. Why deprive them of choice?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

ElvieMogs said:


> Unlike dogs your sons have free will and the ability to express their opinions. Why not let them choose for themselves whether they want circumcision. As you say it's largely cosmetic so they won't come to any harm if you don't have it done in infancy. Why deprive them of choice?


Same reason I am not letting the future puppy owners decide to get the tails amputated at 9+ weeks when they get them. It's a far more invasive and painful procedure. In dog's there is evidence that the nerve endings are not well developed before 5 days old. In babies I can say my son didn't make one cry, they kept giving him cherry syrup and he was happy as can be. I am responsible for these dogs for the next 9 weeks and my son 18+ years where I will be making many decisions for them based on what I think is best for them, this is just one of the first.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

No one else on here has banded tails? Is this forum mostly just people from the U.K.?
I understand that thoughts and beliefs in different regions vary a lot... I am doing what is believed in my area to be the most humane treatment of my pups.


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## ElvieMogs (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes, this is a mostly UK based site though we do have members from around the world. I find it fascinating how ideas change with time on some countries not others. Is there a right & wrong or is it just cultural? Tail docking & ear cropping are illegal in the U.K., as are shock collars in parts. Circumcision is rarely done, other than for strict religious reasons. Will the USA & rest of the world follow at some time, making us advanced humanitarian trailblazers or are we just softies, out on a limb by ourselves? Personally I think the UK is leading the way in humane methods but who knows? Time will tell.

Sorry I've no advice on puppy tails as I've no experience of docking


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> Same reason I am not letting the future puppy owners decide to get the tails amputated at 9+ weeks when they get them. It's a far more invasive and painful procedure. In dog's there is evidence that the nerve endings are not well developed before 5 days old. In babies I can say my son didn't make one cry, they kept giving him cherry syrup and he was happy as can be. I am responsible for these dogs for the next 9 weeks and my son 18+ years where I will be making many decisions for them based on what I think is best for them, this is just one of the first.


no vet worth his salt will dock a pup more then a few days old, it's illegal now in the uk, a vet will here will do it with 48 hours of birth I believe it is providing a SG licence is provided, why the hell do folks want dogs without tails? I've had five, but I tell you what I love the dog I have now with a tail!!! Just love to see it wag.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> No one else on here has banded tails? Is this forum mostly just people from the U.K.?
> I understand that thoughts and beliefs in different regions vary a lot... I am doing what is believed in my area to be the most humane treatment of my pups.


No because we on here don't like causing animals pain and suffering which is what you are doing, fact not fiction. How would you like it if somebody did to you what you are doing to these pups and put elastic bands on your finger?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I live in Hungary where ear cropping is illegal and tail docking can only be done by a vet before the puppy is 7 days old. I have a 3 year old Mini Schnauzer, a breed which traditionally had its ears cropped and tail docked. His breeder, one of the top Schnauzer breeders in the country hasn't docked any of his puppies for years! 

Over here, although it's not illegal, male dogs are only neutered for medical reasons and the majority of vets will only spay a female over the age of one year old, preferably at 18 months old.

Different country ... different culture!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> I live in Hungary where ear cropping is illegal and tail docking can only be done by a vet before the puppy is 7 days old. I have a 3 year old Mini Schnauzer, a breed which traditionally had its ears cropped and tail docked. His breeder, one of the top Schnauzer breeders in the country hasn't docked any of his puppies for years!
> 
> Over here, although it's not illegal, male dogs are only neutered for medical reasons and the majority of vets will only spay a female over the age of one year old, preferably at 18 months old.
> 
> Different country ... different culture!


Respect to the breeder you got your pup from xx


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

danielled said:


> No because we on here don't like causing animals pain and suffering which is what you are doing, fact not fiction. How would you like it if somebody did to you what you are doing to these pups and put elastic bands on your finger?


If my pups were in pain they would cry. They don't. They are fat healthy pups that eat and sleep just like all other 5 day old pups. You are entitled to do what you want with your pups just like I am as long as my pups are healthy and not in pain.
I disagree with not removing tails. I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> Same reason I am not letting the future puppy owners decide to get the tails amputated at 9+ weeks when they get them. It's a far more invasive and painful procedure. In dog's there is evidence that the nerve endings are not well developed before 5 days old. In babies I can say my son didn't make one cry, they kept giving him cherry syrup and he was happy as can be. I am responsible for these dogs for the next 9 weeks and my son 18+ years where I will be making many decisions for them based on what I think is best for them, this is just one of the first.





DT said:


> Respect to the breeder you got your pup from xx


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> If my pups were in pain they would cry. They don't. They are fat healthy pups that eat and sleep just like all other 5 day old pups. You are entitled to do what you want with your pups just like I am as long as my pups are healthy and not in pain.
> I disagree with not removing tails. I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
> I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area.


If your idea of people who are more educated is those who promote and use shock collars then yes, you are better off on another forum.

If you have to shock your dog and cause it pain to get it to listen to you, you're not as good as you clearly think you are.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> I live in Hungary where ear cropping is illegal and tail docking can only be done by a vet before the puppy is 7 days old. I have a 3 year old Mini Schnauzer, a breed which traditionally had its ears cropped and tail docked. His breeder, one of the top Schnauzer breeders in the country hasn't docked any of his puppies for years!
> 
> Over here, although it's not illegal, male dogs are only neutered for medical reasons and the majority of vets will only spay a female over the age of one year old, preferably at 18 months old.
> 
> Different country ... different culture!


That's interesting! Here there is such an issue with homeless pets that vets spay/ neuter as young as possible. Basically as soon as they are able to handle the anesthetic. Many places here dogs have to be spayed/ neutered by six months of age unless you have a breeding license. You can be fined for having an unnuetered dog.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> If my pups were in pain they would cry. They don't. They are fat healthy pups that eat and sleep just like all other 5 day old pups. You are entitled to do what you want with your pups just like I am as long as my pups are healthy and not in pain.
> I disagree with not removing tails. I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
> I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area.


Are you real? Personally I think you are full of bullshit!


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Sweety said:


> If your idea of people who are more educated is those who promote and use shock collars then yes, you are better off on another forum.
> 
> If you have to shock your dog and cause it pain to get it to listen to you, you're not as good as you clearly think you are.


I used the shock on myself first. It was the same as those prank gum shockers. I shocked my husky once and now I only use the beep and as soon as I whistle she comes running to get her praise. I never needed to used them on my aussies. It's is a reminder to a dog to listen and it keeps her from running into the road and being killed or making me feel like I am not giving her a good enough quality of life by keeping her on a leash all the time!

it's just a difference in culture. Many good dog trainers use chock collars, especially with more hard headed breeds.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> If my pups were in pain they would cry. They don't. They are fat healthy pups that eat and sleep just like all other 5 day old pups. You are entitled to do what you want with your pups just like I am as long as my pups are healthy and not in pain.
> I disagree with not removing tails. I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
> I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


Ok let's recap!
You use shock collars for recall?
Heck, you must be one hell of a proficient trainer!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Fascinating.

I trained my adult male Caucasian Ovcharka with positive reward based training and he has an excellent recall. Please tell me more about hard headed breeds?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> I used the shock on myself first. It was the same as those prank gum shockers. I shocked my husky once and now I only use the beep and as soon as I whistle she comes running to get her praise. I never needed to used them on my aussies. It's is a reminder to a dog to listen and it keeps her from running into the road and being killed or making me feel like I am not giving her a good enough quality of life by keeping her on a leash all the time!
> 
> it's just a difference in culture. Many good dog trainers use chock collars, especially with more hard headed breeds.


relying on my good friend noush her just to confirm what huskies do like!
But think they pull luv, not herd! 
Now what breeds exactly have you docked?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> I used the shock on myself first. It was the same as those prank gum shockers. I shocked my husky once and now I only use the beep and as soon as I whistle she comes running to get her praise.* I never needed to used them on my aussies.* It's is a reminder to a dog to listen and it keeps her from running into the road and being killed or making me feel like I am not giving her a good enough quality of life by keeping her on a leash all the time!
> 
> it's just a difference in culture. Many good dog trainers use chock collars, especially with more hard headed breeds.


Probably because Aussies are more handler dependent breed and a Husky is bred to run and run and run...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> I used the shock on myself first. It was the same as those prank gum shockers. I shocked my husky once and now I only use the beep and as soon as I whistle she comes running to get her praise. I never needed to used them on my aussies. It's is a reminder to a dog to listen and it keeps her from running into the road and being killed or making me feel like I am not giving her a good enough quality of life by keeping her on a leash all the time!
> 
> it's just a difference in culture. Many good dog trainers use chock collars, especially with more hard headed breeds.


You didn't test it on yourself well enough sweetie, you need to plug it into the mains and go for 250volts, just make sure you hang on!


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

DT said:


> Ok let's recap!
> You use shock collars for recall?
> Heck, you must be one hell of a proficient trainer!


That is how it is done here. Dogs that I have raised I have never had a problem with recall. We took on a 6 month old husky about 6 months ago who learned from her previous owners to run when they called because she knew they would get her when she didn't come right away. You would call to this dog and her tail would go between her legs and she would run. I worked with her and she would come 80% of the time and if she saw another dog she walked right up to it. The collar reminds her to listen to me. I constantly get comments from people that they have never met a better husky off leash.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Probably because Aussies are more handler dependent breed and a Husky is bred to run and run and run...


Exactly. I have only previously owned herding breeds that live to make you happy and the husky is much more concerned with doing her own thing. For me to be able to give her the best quality of life where I could take her anywhere and put trust in her that she would come when called and not run up to other people and dogs I had to use different training methods and then my aussies.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Does the popcorn lady still come round?
Cos sure as hell in gonna need some!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> Exactly. I have only previously owned herding breeds that live to make you happy and the husky is much more concerned with doing her own thing. For me to be able to give her the best quality of life where I could take her anywhere and put trust in her that she would come when called and not run up to other people and dogs I had to use different training methods and then my aussies.


:Facepalm

Or! You could have not used averse training techniques and understand the inherit breed traits associated with the breed?

Want a dog that goes offlead? Don't get a husky!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> I used the shock on myself first. It was the same as those prank gum shockers. I shocked my husky once and now I only use the beep and as soon as I whistle she comes running to get her praise. I never needed to used them on my aussies. It's is a reminder to a dog to listen and it keeps her from running into the road and being killed or making me feel like I am not giving her a good enough quality of life by keeping her on a leash all the time!
> 
> it's just a difference in culture. Many good dog trainers use chock collars, especially with more hard headed breeds.


Shock collars you may find probably work more on the principle of Learned helplessness, as per experiments done by Martin Seligman et el, its still used as part of A level and university psychology courses even today and in a wide variety of psychology applications including human depression.

*Seligman's Learned Helplessness Theory*
In 1965, Martin Seligman and his colleagues were doing research on *classical conditioning*, or the process by which an animal or human associates one thing with another. In the case of Seligman's experiment, he would ring a bell and then give a light shock to a dog. After a number of times, the dog reacted to the shock even before it happened: as soon as the dog heard the bell, he reacted as though he'd already been shocked.

But, then something unexpected happened. Seligman put each dog into a large crate that was divided down the middle with a low fence. The dog could see and jump over the fence if necessary. The floor on one side of the fence was electrified, but not on the other side of the fence. Seligman put the dog on the electrified side and administered a light shock. He expected the dog to jump to the non-shocking side of the fence.

Instead, the dogs lay down. It was as though they'd learned from the first part of the experiment that there was nothing they could do to avoid the shocks, so they gave up in the second part of the experiment.

Dogs who had previously been shocked did not try to escape the shocks in a subsequent experiment.









Seligman described their condition as *learned helplessness*, or not trying to get out of a negative situation because the past has taught you that you are helpless.

After the dogs didn't jump the fence to escape the shock, Seligman tried the second part of his experiment on dogs that had not been through the classical conditioning part of the experiment. The dogs that had not been previously exposed to shocks quickly jumped over the fence to escape the shocks. This told Seligman that the dogs who lay down and acted helpless had actually learned that helplessness from the first part of his experiment.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/how...y-applies-to-human-depression-and-stress.html


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> If my pups were in pain they would cry. They don't. They are fat healthy pups that eat and sleep just like all other 5 day old pups. You are entitled to do what you want with your pups just like I am as long as my pups are healthy and not in pain.
> I disagree with not removing tails. I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
> I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area.


Have you ever watched animal cops. Have you seen the dogs/pups they seize who have had their tails banded in the same cruel inhumane way you do?


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> :Facepalm
> 
> Or! You could have not used averse training techniques and understand the inherit breed traits associated with the breed?
> 
> Want a dog that goes offlead? Don't get a husky!


I did not go out and get the husky. The previous owners decided she was an inherently bad dog because she didn't listen and they were going to have the dog put down. And yes you can elect to put dogs down here for no real reason. While working at a vets office I had to assist in putting down a 7 month old Great Dane pup for nipping a child.
Anyway we rescued the dog. The owners told us one night to come and get her or else she would be put down the next day.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

danielled said:


> Have you ever watched animal cops. Have you seen the dogs/pups they seize who have had their tails banded in the same cruel inhumane way you do?


 Those pups had their tails done after five days old. That is completely different in several ways and I completely disagree with that just as I disagree with any people who dock tails by a vet or bands after 5 days old.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Shock collars you may find probably work more on the principle of Learned helplessness, as per experiments done by Martin Seligman et el, its still used as part of A level and university psychology courses even today and in a wide variety of psychology applications including human depression.
> 
> *Seligman's Learned Helplessness Theory*
> In 1965, Martin Seligman and his colleagues were doing research on *classical conditioning*, or the process by which an animal or human associates one thing with another. In the case of Seligman's experiment, he would ring a bell and then give a light shock to a dog. After a number of times, the dog reacted to the shock even before it happened: as soon as the dog heard the bell, he reacted as though he'd already been shocked.
> ...


Yes I learned about this experiment in college. In my case the vibration or beep reminds my dog to turn and look at me. It helped with her selective hearing. She doesn't yelp and then crawl to me like it seems you all imagine. She turns, looks, hears my command and comes running with her tail wagging.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

Now you want to find a forum where everybody agrees that being cruel is ok. Basically throw your toys out of the pram because we object to your cruel inhumane ways.

What's with all the nutjobs on here today.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> Those pups had their tails done after five days old. That is completely different in several ways and I completely disagree with that just as I disagree with any people who dock tails by a vet or bands after 5 days old.


You have learned nothing from that show then obviously. Sighs, no educating some people like you. No matter how old they are it is still cruel.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> I did not go out and get the husky. The previous owners decided she was an inherently bad dog because she didn't listen and they were going to have the dog put down. And yes you can elect to put dogs down here for no real reason. While working at a vets office I had to assist in putting down a 7 month old Great Dane pup for nipping a child.
> Anyway we rescued the dog. The owners told us one night to come and get her or else she would be put down the next day.





danielled said:


> Now you want to find a forum where everybody agrees that being cruel is ok. Basically throw your toys out of the pram because we object to your cruel inhumane ways.
> 
> What's with all the nutjobs on here today.


Think they looking for me Dan lol x


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

DT said:


> Think they looking for me Dan lol x


Forum is a madhouse today DT. Nutjobs showing up everywhere.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

What an awful way to treat dogs if I had to resort to using shock collars on my dogs I would call it a day and admit I wasn't fit to be a dog owner!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> That is how it is done here. Dogs that I have raised I have never had a problem with recall. We took on a 6 month old husky about 6 months ago who learned from her previous owners to run when they called because she knew they would get her when she didn't come right away. You would call to this dog and her tail would go between her legs and she would run. I worked with her and she would come 80% of the time and if she saw another dog she walked right up to it. The collar reminds her to listen to me. *I constantly get comments from people that they have never met a better husky off leash.*


 Because the dog gets a shock if she doesn't!

What if she bolts one day & doesn't come back when she's zapped?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Because the dog gets a shock if she doesn't!
> 
> What if she bolts one day & doesn't come back when she's zapped?


The the OP will think the batteries have failed if that's all they have to rely on


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> Yes I learned about this experiment in college. In my case the vibration or beep reminds my dog to turn and look at me. It helped with her selective hearing. She doesn't yelp and then crawl to me like it seems you all imagine. She turns, looks, hears my command and comes running with her tail wagging.


That doesn't seem to be the case with pre shocked dogs if you read the experiment and details properly.

Instead, the dogs lay down. It was as though they'd learned from the first part of the experiment that there was nothing they could do to avoid the shocks, so they gave up in the second part of the experiment.

Dogs who had previously been shocked did not try to escape the shocks in a subsequent experiment.









Seligman described their condition as *learned helplessness*, or not trying to get out of a negative situation because the past has taught you that you are helpless.

After the dogs didn't jump the fence to escape the shock, Seligman tried the second part of his experiment on dogs that had not been through the classical conditioning part of the experiment. The dogs that had not been previously exposed to shocks quickly jumped over the fence to escape the shocks. This told Seligman that the dogs who lay down and acted helpless had actually learned that helplessness from the first part of his experiment.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> After watching tail docking of dogs and claw removal of cats at vets offices while working there I knew I didn't want to do that to my pups because of the blood. The banding of the tails resulted in one squeak and they have not shown any sign of discomfort since. I was told that there was not a real risk of infection if I applied the iodine and that the tails would fall off in once piece with the band and be done. That is not what's happening and that's why I am concerned. I want my pups to look like aussies and not border collies, I love the aussie nub butt!
> Circumcision is more cosmetic than medically necessary and I will do to all of my sons. Just as I would dock any other aussie tails if I were to breed again.


You may also want to read this paper of a case of docking via the use of a rubber band around the tail it seems that the procedure isn't so infallible and straight forward and as safe as you first thought.

Tail docking is the amputation of a part or all of an animal's tail [1]. In puppies, it is usually performed between day three to five of life or at 3 months under general anaesthesia by surgical amputation with a scalpel [2]. Some breeders, however, perform tail docking without anaesthesia by the application of tight rubber rings around the tail which serves to occlude vessels caudal to the rubber ring, resulting in ischemic necrosis and sloughing of the tail

*Case presentation*
A 3 week and 2 day old male Boerboel was presented at the Surgery Unit of the Veterinary Teaching Hospital of the University of Ibadan, Ibadan, Nigeria, with a severely swollen, gangrenous tail which, according to the owner, occurred following an attempt to amputate the tail with a rubber ring tied tightly on the tail two weeks previously (Figs. 1 and and2).2). This puppy's tail did not slough off; though his six other litter mates did about 7 days following the placement of the band. The puppy was severely distressed with pain at presentation; evidenced by continual vocalisation. Owner also complained of loss of appetite and un-thriftiness among its litter mates.

Might be wise to get the vet to have a look at the pups tail there seems to be a problem with.

Cosmetic tail docking: an overview of abuse and report of an interesting case
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772368/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> If my pups were in pain they would cry. They don't. They are fat healthy pups that eat and sleep just like all other 5 day old pups. You are entitled to do what you want with your pups just like I am as long as my pups are healthy and not in pain.
> I disagree with not removing tails. I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
> *I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area*.


Jog on then, I'm sure you will find a forum for people who enjoy inflicting pain and distress on their pets but this isn't one of them. Using shock collars is nothing to do with cultural differences and everything to do with ignorance. What goes round comes around


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> Because the dog gets a shock if she doesn't!
> 
> What if she bolts one day & doesn't come back when she's zapped?


Some right fruit loops on here today.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> That is how it is done here.


No it's not. I'm in the US. You're full of shit.



Keta_da_dawg said:


> I see the importance of preserving standard and I do occasionally use my dogs to help move cows where having tails could be detrimental if a cow stepped on it. I also agree with the use of shock collars for recall training. But that's why I can take all 4 of my dogs on hikes off leash and have complete control of all of them if we see other dogs, people or deer.
> I will look for an American based forum with people who are more educated share the beliefs of my area.


I think you will find a similar reception on American based forums. You'll have to choose carefully to find one where shock collars are not considered at best controversial.

FWIW, my dogs live on 20 acres, loose, and I can call them off live chases - including deer, and I did not need a shock collar to achieve that. Premack works beautifully, and I don't have to worry about it running out of charge 

As to cows stepping on tails, good grief what a bunch of baloney. Because of course no one herds cows with ACD's with full tails, or border collies... Puhleeze.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

danielled said:


> Some right fruit loops on here today.


Hehehehe, and some of us fruit loops are here every day Dan :Hilarious


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

ouesi said:


> No it's not. I'm in the US. You're full of shit.
> 
> I think you will find a similar reception on American based forums. You'll have to choose carefully to find one where shock collars are not considered at best controversial.
> 
> ...


Well said, I have relatives in the USA and even they will agree with us that tail docking by banding the dogs tail isn't how it is done.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

danielled said:


> Some right fruit loops on here today.


I quite enjoy the occasional fruit loop. It's like a guilty pleasure.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

The US really is backwards in a lot of its doggy ways, and it's so, so sad.
I don't understand the logic around ears and tails.... don't like them? Best just chop them off rather than breed for something more desirable then! Hurr hurrr

Since you are breeding them, I'd have thought you'd know that they are called mini american shepherds, not aussies...


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> Hehehehe, and some of us fruit loops are here every day Dan :Hilarious


Lol you know what I mean. Some breeds are born killers, dogtraining expert dot com, let's all be cruel to dogs by banding tails here in this thread and the one who is going round hitting dogs with a stick. I know 'tis nearly the season to be jolly but surely it isn't the season to be posting inflammatory posts?


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I quite enjoy the occasional fruit loop. It's like a guilty pleasure.


Today it isn't the occassional one though.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

It would seem that organisations like the American Veterinary medical Association are also opposing the cosmetic docking of dogs anyway.

The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when performed for cosmetic reasons and calls on breed organizations to remove mention of the procedures from their standards.

The Association's Executive Board approved the revised AVMA Policy on Ear Cropping and Tail Docking of Dogs, Nov. 14. The statement reads:

*EAR CROPPING AND TAIL DOCKING OF DOGS*
*The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes. The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards.*

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/081215c.aspx


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Pappychi said:


> I quite enjoy the occasional fruit loop. It's like a guilty pleasure.


I agree but today we seem to have had fruit loops salad they are coming from all directions, talking loads of tripe to try and shock (no pun intended)


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2016)

suewhite said:


> I agree but today we seem to have had fruit loops salad they are coming from all directions, talking loads of tripe to try and shock (no pun intended)


That's exactly what I mean.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Another interesting case of banding in a World Animal Foundation article it seems there are at least two cases of abuse and cruelty when home banding has gone badly wrong too.

*TAIL DOCKING*

Tails are usually docked on 2-10 day old puppies, without either general or local anesthesia. If the procedure is done by a veterinarian, the tail is clamped a short distance from the body, and the portion of the tail outside the clamp is cut or torn away. Many breeders dock their pups themselves using a method that has been proven to be far more painful - "banding," or tying off the tail. This stops the blood supply, which results in dry gangrene. The dead portion of the tail usually falls off about three days later. This can be likened to slamming your finger in a car door - and leaving it there.

Two cases involving home tail docking were recently reported by the Michigan Humane Society. One woman was tried and found guilty of cruelty for allowing rubber bands to become embedded in the tails of four puppies. In a similar abuse case, a four-week-old Rottweiler mix puppy's tail had been improperly rubber banded. His infected tail had to be amputated.

http://www.worldanimalfoundation.org/articles/article/8950183/181441.htm

Just wondering if the OP still thinks Banding is such a good idea now, faced with the fact that its not just a case of members and dog owners in general finding it cruel and unnecessary it happens to be scientific fact and there is even more veterinary and other organisations against cosmetic docking more now then ever.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Only just seen this post.
As others have said,banding tails is cruel and also dangerous., and can cause unnecessary suffering.
Do you enjoy inflicting unnecessary pain on your dogs by using a shock collar.,in order to get them to do what you want.
That is totally unacptable and down right cruel.

I feel really sorry for your dogs, you don't deserve them, and should be ashamed of yourself.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2016)

Honeys mum said:


> Only just seen this post.
> As others have said,banding tails is cruel and also dangerous., and can cause unnecessary suffering.
> Do you enjoy inflicting unnecessary pain on your dogs by using a shock collar.,in order to get them to do what you want.
> That is totally unacptable and down right cruel.
> ...


Think they do enjoy causing them pain and suffering. I hope they get their dogs taken off them.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Whilst I wholeheartedly believe that tail banding is cruel, I'd like to point out that virtually all lambs here in the UK are banded - where's the outcry for their suffering?


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2016)

Burrowzig said:


> Whilst I wholeheartedly believe that tail banding is cruel, I'd like to point out that virtually all lambs here in the UK are banded - where's the outcry for their suffering?


Yes they are sadly, needs to be stopped and fast.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> No it's not. I'm in the US. You're full of shit.


:Hilarious I think I love you


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> :Hilarious I think I love you


It's 'cause I used "you're" correctly isn't it? :Angelic


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

danielled said:


> Yes they are sadly, needs to be stopped and fast.


The main reason lambs have their tails shortened is that sheep droppings collect on the wool of the adult sheep, particularly those fed on rich pasture. The droppings attract flies which lay eggs and the maggots often eat their way into the sheep causing immense pain and often death if not spotted in time. It's called fly strike and can happen very quickly often before the farmer is aware of it. So lambs tails are removed in order to try and prevent this happening. 
I suppose a farmer could get the vet in to dock each lamb under aneasthetic within a day or two of birth, but I would imagine this would be horrendously expensive for the farmer and not overly practical.
Sheep that are on rough and poor pasture up on the hills and mountains are not routinely banded and are left with tails as the grass there provides little nutrient and less sticky droppings and the sheep tend not to have problems with strike on their rear ends. Problems arise when the hill sheep are about six year old and their teeth have begun to deterioate due to eating the hard grasses, this is known as being broken mouthed. Those hill sheep are then sold to Lowland farmers that have more lush grazing that the sheep can still manage, but then they end up with mucky bums and prone to strike.
I suspect you will say that the farmers ought to take care of their sheep better, but a busy farmer with several hundred sheep plus all the other jobs on a farm cannot always spot a sheep that's not doing to well.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I remember playing in the fields on the farm as a child and finding the tails and testicles on the ground - castration was performed the same way. It was just part of farm life.
Getting back to tail docking puppies didn't it used to be traditinal to get someone to bite them off ? Not a job for the squeamish !


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2016)

Siskin said:


> The main reason lambs have their tails shortened is that sheep droppings collect on the wool of the adult sheep, particularly those fed on rich pasture. The droppings attract flies which lay eggs and the maggots often eat their way into the sheep causing immense pain and often death if not spotted in time. It's called fly strike and can happen very quickly often before the farmer is aware of it. So lambs tails are removed in order to try and prevent this happening.
> I suppose a farmer could get the vet in to dock each lamb under aneasthetic within a day or two of birth, but I would imagine this would be horrendously expensive for the farmer and not overly practical.
> Sheep that are on rough and poor pasture up on the hills and mountains are not routinely banded and are left with tails as the grass there provides little nutrient and less sticky droppings and the sheep tend not to have problems with strike on their rear ends. Problems arise when the hill sheep are about six year old and their teeth have begun to deterioate due to eating the hard grasses, this is known as being broken mouthed. Those hill sheep are then sold to Lowland farmers that have more lush grazing that the sheep can still manage, but then they end up with mucky bums and prone to strike.
> I suspect you will say that the farmers ought to take care of their sheep better, but a busy farmer with several hundred sheep plus all the other jobs on a farm cannot always spot a sheep that's not doing to well.


Learn something new every day.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Siskin said:


> The main reason lambs have their tails shortened is that sheep droppings collect on the wool of the adult sheep, particularly those fed on rich pasture. The droppings attract flies which lay eggs and the maggots often eat their way into the sheep causing immense pain and often death if not spotted in time. It's called fly strike and can happen very quickly often before the farmer is aware of it. So lambs tails are removed in order to try and prevent this happening.
> I suppose a farmer could get the vet in to dock each lamb under aneasthetic within a day or two of birth, but I would imagine this would be horrendously expensive for the farmer and not overly practical.
> Sheep that are on rough and poor pasture up on the hills and mountains are not routinely banded and are left with tails as the grass there provides little nutrient and less sticky droppings and the sheep tend not to have problems with strike on their rear ends. Problems arise when the hill sheep are about six year old and their teeth have begun to deterioate due to eating the hard grasses, this is known as being broken mouthed. Those hill sheep are then sold to Lowland farmers that have more lush grazing that the sheep can still manage, but then they end up with mucky bums and prone to strike.
> I suspect you will say that the farmers ought to take care of their sheep better, but a busy farmer with several hundred sheep plus all the other jobs on a farm cannot always spot a sheep that's not doing to well.


Absolutely.
No matter how diligent the farmer, a sheep that scours can get flystrike in a day in hot weather. I've seen this happen with my own eyes on a couple of occasions. And I'm one of those awful people who has banded lambs.
I can't speak for dogs as I've never banded (or bred) but then I don't agree with tail docking for cosmetic purposes anyway so that's a moot point.
I never witnessed any discomfort from lambs banded properly. I've never seen any issues either. No infections. But as previously mentioned, I've seen tailed sheep with diarrhoea get flystrike in no time at all.
Plus, as much as I love sheep, they're too stupid for words. I had to de-tangle a sheep from a barbed wire fence a few months ago because it'd managed to get its tail caught quite badly. Sheep seem to have a knack for injuring them self in ever new and more inventive ways and the comparison to dogs is I feel not a good one.
That aside, tail docking to be in keeping with breed standard is not acceptable I don't feel. Tail docking for a purpose is another thing entirely and I HAVE seen a couple of pretty grotty tail injuries.
But I've yet to see a working dog get its tail stood on by a cow....


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

My dog is seldom leashed, and I don't need a shock collar. She is now 5 years old and I've worked with her since she was 8 weeks old. She is one of the best behaved dogs you will ever see and no shock collar was needed to train her. They want to please you, you need to teach them what to do and you don't have to use a painful thing like a shock collar to do it


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> I remember playing in the fields on the farm as a child and finding the tails and testicles on the ground - castration was performed the same way. It was just part of farm life.
> Getting back to tail docking puppies didn't it used to be traditinal to get someone to bite them off ? Not a job for the squeamish !


No, that was castration! Not a job I'd fancy.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Siskin said:


> The main reason lambs have their tails shortened is that sheep droppings collect on the wool of the adult sheep, particularly those fed on rich pasture. The droppings attract flies which lay eggs and the maggots often eat their way into the sheep causing immense pain and often death if not spotted in time. It's called fly strike and can happen very quickly often before the farmer is aware of it. So lambs tails are removed in order to try and prevent this happening.
> I suppose a farmer could get the vet in to dock each lamb under aneasthetic within a day or two of birth, but I would imagine this would be horrendously expensive for the farmer and not overly practical.
> Sheep that are on rough and poor pasture up on the hills and mountains are not routinely banded and are left with tails as the grass there provides little nutrient and less sticky droppings and the sheep tend not to have problems with strike on their rear ends. Problems arise when the hill sheep are about six year old and their teeth have begun to deterioate due to eating the hard grasses, this is known as being broken mouthed. Those hill sheep are then sold to Lowland farmers that have more lush grazing that the sheep can still manage, but then they end up with mucky bums and prone to strike.
> I suspect you will say that the farmers ought to take care of their sheep better, but a busy farmer with several hundred sheep plus all the other jobs on a farm cannot always spot a sheep that's not doing to well.





Katalyst said:


> Absolutely.
> No matter how diligent the farmer, a sheep that scours can get flystrike in a day in hot weather. I've seen this happen with my own eyes on a couple of occasions. And I'm one of those awful people who has banded lambs.
> I can't speak for dogs as I've never banded (or bred) but then I don't agree with tail docking for cosmetic purposes anyway so that's a moot point.
> I never witnessed any discomfort from lambs banded properly. I've never seen any issues either. No infections. But as previously mentioned, I've seen tailed sheep with diarrhoea get flystrike in no time at all.
> ...


I know about fly strike and why banding is done - lived nearly 30 years on a mixed farm including sheep. And yes, sheep are stupid - I've disentangled plenty of them too - one from a hay bob was a notable one - but just because they're stupid doesn't make it OK to inflict pain on them.
And I wasn't so much comparing lambs to puppies, but contrasting the emotional reactions to puppy banding against the general indifference towards the same thing with lambs; also seen widely as commodities for the table.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Sheep seem to spend their entire lives trying to find a way to die. Odd creatures, but I do like them


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> Whilst I wholeheartedly believe that tail banding is cruel, I'd like to point out that virtually all lambs here in the UK are banded - where's the outcry for their suffering?


Sheep with longer tails in the warmer parts of UK are much more at risk of flystrike. When poo sticks to the wool around the tail ( runny poo after eating rich grass in the spring and autumn "flushes" as opposed to more normal pellets), flies lay eggs on the dirty wool, and the maggots can eat the sheep alive. I've seen flystrike, and it's a disgusting thing to have. The maggots not only eat the sheep, but their waste burns the skin and poisons the wound further. Handling a sheep with fly strike with any cuts on your hands can burn. In cooler parts of UK sheep tend to have tails left long, risk from flies is lower, whilst the wooly tails help keep the sheep warm. It's a balance of risk and benefit. Docking dogs is completely different as it's cosmetic. Like the difference between breast surgery to prevent cancer in high risk women versus breast enhancement /reduction to get "perfect" magazine breasts.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Siskin said:


> The main reason lambs have their tails shortened is that sheep droppings collect on the wool of the adult sheep, particularly those fed on rich pasture. The droppings attract flies which lay eggs and the maggots often eat their way into the sheep causing immense pain and often death if not spotted in time. It's called fly strike and can happen very quickly often before the farmer is aware of it. So lambs tails are removed in order to try and prevent this happening.
> I suppose a farmer could get the vet in to dock each lamb under aneasthetic within a day or two of birth, but I would imagine this would be horrendously expensive for the farmer and not overly practical.
> Sheep that are on rough and poor pasture up on the hills and mountains are not routinely banded and are left with tails as the grass there provides little nutrient and less sticky droppings and the sheep tend not to have problems with strike on their rear ends. Problems arise when the hill sheep are about six year old and their teeth have begun to deterioate due to eating the hard grasses, this is known as being broken mouthed. Those hill sheep are then sold to Lowland farmers that have more lush grazing that the sheep can still manage, but then they end up with mucky bums and prone to strike.
> I suspect you will say that the farmers ought to take care of their sheep better, but a busy farmer with several hundred sheep plus all the other jobs on a farm cannot always spot a sheep that's not doing to well.


This exactly. Answered before read to end, this explains very well.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Sheep seem to spend their entire lives trying to find a way to die. Odd creatures, but I do like them


Yup, had one on her back the other morning. Had to help her to her feet 5 times, as each time I got her up she tried to run off and fell over again. Eventually she decided to stand still long enough to feel her legs again and have a pee and a belch, then wandered off ( giving me a dirty look over her shoulder - you're welcome, don't mention it! ).


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DT said:


> You didn't test it on yourself well enough sweetie, you need to plug it into the mains and go for 250volts, just make sure you hang on!


I do not think this is appropriate. If you remember DT, shock collars were a banned subject just because of remarks like this - and from some other posters further on in the thread. I thoroughly object to such comments. I am not afraid to say that I own a shock collar. The first time I used one I asked the local SSPCA inspector to come and see it used and decide if it was ok - he had no objections at all when he saw it in use. I know a lot of people that use them, particularly on farms where dogs are needing to be given freedom, cannot be watched every second and need to be trusted to stay around. I have used mine with two very prey driven dogs who would otherwise be tied up or left shut in the house while I am out and about. One of them needed two low shocks and then a year later one shock. Toffee still runs off if I am not paying attention but I can now recall her unless she is in total chase mode, she is 6 and has had 3 mild shocks in her life. When I had herding breeds I did not believe that any dog could not be trained to come back whatever the distraction - because they always did. Now I know better but I want my dogs to have freedom to be with me when I am working outside. I would never use one on a dog that did not have a 100 percent recall in all but one situation. It is not a method of training a dog, which maybe is what the OP is using it for, but it is an emergency last resort safety measure and if used correctly does not cause any problems. If used carelessly it can be an instrument of torture. If I lived in a different environment where my dogs were walked properly I would not dream of using a collar as a training aid but circumstances differ and what is right for one person or dog is totally wrong for another.



Catharinem said:


> Sheep with longer tails in the warmer parts of UK are much more at risk of flystrike. When poo sticks to the wool around the tail ( runny poo after eating rich grass in the spring and autumn "flushes" as opposed to more normal pellets), flies lay eggs on the dirty wool, and the maggots can eat the sheep alive. I've seen flystrike, and it's a disgusting thing to have. The maggots not only eat the sheep, but their waste burns the skin and poisons the wound further. Handling a sheep with fly strike with any cuts on your hands can burn. In cooler parts of UK sheep tend to have tails left long, risk from flies is lower, whilst the wooly tails help keep the sheep warm. It's a balance of risk and benefit. Docking dogs is completely different as it's cosmetic. Like the difference between breast surgery to prevent cancer in high risk women versus breast enhancement /reduction to get "perfect" magazine breasts.


Exactly, except I live in one of the coldest parts of the UK and sheep here are always docked. I would imagine hill sheep are often not banded as they will not be able to be caught. I have banded hundreds of lambs and it never causes any trouble. Banding the testicles makes the odd one throw itself around. I cannnot comment on banding puppies but not sure why it would cause any more (lack of) pain than a lamb. I do know a boxer breeder that got hers banded when the vets refused to dock any more.

Back to the OP, I thought Australian Shepherds were usually born without tails. Not sure why they would be at risk of a cow treading on their tail. Border collies often work cattle and never seen one either docked or with a tail injury.


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## Irimina (Apr 13, 2016)

Burrowzig said:


> Whilst I wholeheartedly believe that tail banding is cruel, I'd like to point out that virtually all lambs here in the UK are banded - where's the outcry for their suffering?


We don't dock or band lamb tails in Romania. At all. Also cows are traditionally left with their horns too. Sheep and goats too. 
That was just to add to our cultural bucket on this thread.
Dog tail docking and ear cropping was wildly popular for certain breeds and still is.
Although I do consider certain breeds actually look better, I don't think my own cosmetic preferences should determine whether an animal can have ears or a tail. After all, I might look better with a shorter nose too, but I am very fond of my natural one too.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

Blitz said:


> I do not think this is appropriate. If you remember DT, shock collars were a banned subject just because of remarks like this - and from some other posters further on in the thread. I thoroughly object to such comments. I am not afraid to say that I own a shock collar. The first time I used one I asked the local SSPCA inspector to come and see it used and decide if it was ok - he had no objections at all when he saw it in use. I know a lot of people that use them, particularly on farms where dogs are needing to be given freedom, cannot be watched every second and need to be trusted to stay around. I have used mine with two very prey driven dogs who would otherwise be tied up or left shut in the house while I am out and about. One of them needed two low shocks and then a year later one shock. Toffee still runs off if I am not paying attention but I can now recall her unless she is in total chase mode, she is 6 and has had 3 mild shocks in her life. When I had herding breeds I did not believe that any dog could not be trained to come back whatever the distraction - because they always did. Now I know better but I want my dogs to have freedom to be with me when I am working outside. I would never use one on a dog that did not have a 100 percent recall in all but one situation. It is not a method of training a dog, which maybe is what the OP is using it for, but it is an emergency last resort safety measure and if used correctly does not cause any problems. If used carelessly it can be an instrument of torture. If I lived in a different environment where my dogs were walked properly I would not dream of using a collar as a training aid but circumstances differ and what is right for one person or dog is totally wrong for another.
> 
> Exactly, except I live in one of the coldest parts of the UK and sheep here are always docked. I would imagine hill sheep are often not banded as they will not be able to be caught. I have banded hundreds of lambs and it never causes any trouble. Banding the testicles makes the odd one throw itself around. I cannnot comment on banding puppies but not sure why it would cause any more (lack of) pain than a lamb. I do know a boxer breeder that got hers banded when the vets refused to dock any more.
> 
> Back to the OP, I thought Australian Shepherds were usually born without tails. Not sure why they would be at risk of a cow treading on their tail. Border collies often work cattle and never seen one either docked or with a tail injury.


Thank you for not bashing. I have not been around sheep and don't know how aftercare is with banded sheep. But for my pups the bands were left on for 3 and then the tails were clipped off. Iodine and wound spray are applied 2-3x a day from the day the bands are put on until the tail is 100% healed. There was no screaming, no blood. Also I have read Australian shepherds are usually born with tails but occasionally they are born without. I wish they were born without tails but the whole tail banding process has been less stressful and painful for them than getting them their first shots will be.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> Thank you for not bashing. I have not been around sheep and don't know how aftercare is with banded sheep. But for my pups the bands were left on for 3 and then the tails were clipped off. Iodine and wound spray are applied 2-3x a day from the day the bands are put on until the tail is 100% healed. There was no screaming, no blood. Also I have read Australian shepherds are usually born with tails but occasionally they are born without. I wish they were born without tails but the whole tail banding process *has been less stressful and painful for them than getting them their first shots will be*.


Less APPARENTLY stressful. When pups get their first vaccinations, they are more developed, more capable of protesting. Because a very young puppy (or other creature) isn't well developed enough to kick up a fuss, it doesn't mean it what's being done to it isn't painful or stressful.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

Circumcision kills over 100 babies a year in the US. 

It kills more babies than Sudden Unexplained Infant Death Sundrome; the condition that terrifies parents around the developed world and causes them to spend time and money on trying to lower the risks. 

But parents still happily chop off foreskin for cosmetic or cultural beliefs. 

This is the kind of person the OPer is. Either ignorant of facts or uncaring. There's no discussing or arguing with either kind. 

Banding won't cause a pup to cry. Put an elastic band around your finger for the whole day. You're not gonna cry. You'll still eat your dinner. When you're knackered enough you'll still sleep. 

But it will still bloody hurt and be uncomfortable.


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## Keta_da_dawg (Oct 13, 2016)

NexivRed said:


> Circumcision kills over 100 babies a year in the US.
> 
> It kills more babies than Sudden Unexplained Infant Death Sundrome; the condition that terrifies parents around the developed world and causes them to spend time and money on trying to lower the risks.
> 
> ...


False. What you are saying is false. Do research before you post things to prove your point. Your quote about 100 babies being born in the us is true but SIDS kills many more babies. But they don't die from the procedure, they die when parents don't follow aftercare instructions and it gets infected.
"Although fewer than 2,500 infant deaths this year will be classified as SIDS, an additional 2,000 seemingly healthy babies under 12 months will also die mysteriously in their sleep, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). SIDS may be a very rare event, but the news is terrifying nonetheless."

Also there is much or more risk to not circumcizing. I would much rather deal with a couple days of extra care for my baby than all of these below complications.

*Lack of circumcision:*
• Is responsible for a 12-fold higher risk of urinary tract infections in infancy. Risk = 1 in 20 to 1 in 50 for uncircumcised infants and 1 in 200 to 1 in 500 for circumcised infants. Higher risk of UTI at older ages as well. Overall _lifetime_ cumulative prevalence of UTI = 1 in 3 for uncircumcised males compared with 1 in 20 for circumcised males, respectively.

• Confers a higher risk of death in the first year of life (from complications of urinary tract infections: namely kidney failure, meningitis and infection of bone marrow).

• One in ~400-900 uncircumcised men will get cancer of the penis, which occurs more than 20 times more commonly in uncircumcised men. A quarter of these will die from it and the rest will require complete or partial penile amputation as a result. (In contrast, invasive penile cancer never occurs or is extraordinarily rare in men circumcised at birth.) (Data from studies in the USA, Denmark and Australia, which are not to be confused with the often quoted, but misleading, annual incidence figure of 1 in 100,000).

• Higher risk of prostate cancer (50-100% higher in uncircumcised men)

• Is associated with 3-fold higher risk of inflammation and infection of the skin of the penis. This includes balanitis (inflammation of the glans), posthitis (inflammation of the foreskin), balanoposthitis (inflammation of glans and foreskin), phimosis (inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (constriction of the penis by a tight foreskin that will not return after retraction). Up to 18% of uncircumcised boys will develop one of these by 8 years of age, whereas all are unknown or much rarer in the circumcised. Risk of balanoposthitis = 1 in 6. Obstruction to urine flow = 1 in 10-50. Risk of these is even higher in diabetic men.

• Means increased risk of problems that may necessitate 1 in 10 older children and men requiring circumcision later in life, when the cost is 10 times higher, the procedure is less convenient, and the cosmetic result can be lesser, as stitches or tissue glue are required, as compared with circumcisions done in infancy.

• Increases by 2-4 fold the risk of thrush and sexually transmitted infections such as human papillomavirus (HPV), genital herpes (HSV-2), syphilis, chancroid, _Trichomonas vaginalis_ and thrush.

• Is the biggest risk factor for heterosexually-acquired AIDS virus infection in men. 2 to 8-times higher risk by itself, and even higher when lesions from STIs are added in. Risk per exposure = 1 in 300.

• In the female partners of uncircumcised men lack of male circumcision is associated with an up to 5 fold higher incidence of cervical cancer (caused by sexually transmitted HPV), genital herpes, _Trichomonas vaginalis_, bacterial vaginosis (formerly called "Gardnerella"), and possibly Chlamydia (which is a cause of pelvic inflammatory disease, infertility from blockage of fallopian tubes, and ectopic pregnancy).

*Getting circumcised will result in:*
• Having to go through a very minor surgical procedure that carries with it small risks.

• Improved hygiene.

• Much lower risk of urinary tract infections.

• Much lower chance of acquiring HIV, the AIDS virus, heterosexually.

• Virtually complete elimination of the risk of invasive penile cancer.

• Slightly lower risk of prostate cancer.

• More favourable hygiene for the man's sexual partner.

• Much lower risk of cervical cancer and Chlamydia (and thus infertility and other problems) in the female sexual partner.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

NexivRed said:


> Circumcision kills over 100 babies a year in the US.
> 
> It kills more babies than Sudden Unexplained Infant Death Sundrome; the condition that terrifies parents around the developed world and causes them to spend time and money on trying to lower the risks.
> 
> ...


Yes it would hurt. However it seems OP is the sort of person who hates being proved wrong and refuses to accept that banding puppies/dogs tails is wrong, cruel and painful. OP in order to understand how cruel what they are doing is might need to try putting an elastic band tightly round their finger then they'd know how much it is hurting the pups. It will be hurting the pups a lot.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

Literally everything you've just posted is incorrect, or are myths and old wives tales. What's your source?


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2016)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> *Getting circumcised will result in:*
> • Having to go through a very minor surgical procedure that carries with it small risks.


Also I find this comment hugely insulting. A surgical procedure without anaesthetic, or at best, a local, and nothing but mild paracetamol whilst an open wound exposed to faeces and urine heals, is not minor.

Ask a mother to slice off part of her labia in the same manner in solidation for her son, and then we'll see if they think it's so minor.


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## BleuMag (Feb 13, 2021)

Keta_da_dawg said:


> I am in the USA. Tail docking is not illegal here and I had a mini aussie breeder put the bands on the tails. She lives several hours away and can't come now to see the pups. It is pretty common here to band tails and it is considered "painless" docking and safer than taking puppies to the vet and risk them catching ill and the bleeding that goes with cutting off tails. Vets won't give pain meds to pups so young and many won't give antibiotics because it will kill off the good bacteria in the gut and cause diarrhea. I know of people who band miniature poodle tails so it's not only large breeds.


I'm in the USA as well and tail docking via "banding" is absolutely *illegal* in the USA.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2021)

BleuMag said:


> I'm in the USA as well and tail docking via "banding" is absolutely *illegal* in the USA.


This thread is over 4 years old.

@SusieRainbow


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> This thread is over 4 years old.
> 
> @SusieRainbow


Just been reading through it,not nice bed-time reading ! ( Shudders)


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