# American Pitbulls



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Just got back from a quick walk and across the other side of the road was a guy walking two American Pitbulls. Polite guy said hello..his dogs looked amazing..biiig and strong.

Wonderful looking dogs, shame they are a banned breed!


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

Yeah, a few months ago we met a girl walking one, he was gorgeous...looked a bit like the dog from the Homeward Bound movie. He was only 8 or 9 months at the time, but he was huge! He was such a friendly dog, big puppy paws etc. Only thing was, myself & my OH are used to big sloppy dogs jumping around, but someone else would probably get the wrong idea & think he's vicious (which he totally wasn't btw! lol) mostly coz of his size and his looks.
Beautiful dogs though


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

First time iv seen the breed for real and they looked so majestic. Isnt there any kind of petition to have these silly laws lifted?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LouJ69 said:


> Yeah, a few months ago we met a girl walking one, he was gorgeous...looked a bit like the dog from the Homeward Bound movie. He was only 8 or 9 months at the time, but he was huge! He was such a friendly dog, big puppy paws etc. Only thing was, myself & my OH are used to big sloppy dogs jumping around, but someone else would probably get the wrong idea & think he's vicious (which he totally wasn't btw! lol) mostly coz of his size and his looks.
> Beautiful dogs though


But - the dog in Homeward Bound isnt a pit bull. I thought pit bulls were just rather longer legged editions of staffies, not huge dogs like that one.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Probably not until the bad owners reign it in and dog bites/attacks on humans falls dramatically  Although then they'd get to prove the ban works, when in reality, it's done anything but!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The dog from Homeward Bound is an American Bulldog, surely? 

Although Pit 'types' can get quite big, they are generally only a little longer legged than Staffies. 

It's a very ridiculous law; I have had Pit Bulls sleeping on my lap and playing with dogs one day, only to be put down the next day for their breed type.


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> The dog from Homeward Bound is an American Bulldog, surely?
> 
> Although Pit 'types' can get quite big, they are generally only a little longer legged than Staffies.
> 
> It's a very ridiculous law; I have had Pit Bulls sleeping on my lap and playing with dogs one day, only to be put down the next day for their breed type.


Yeah its is an american bulldog.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

I don't think the law should be lifted, they can be dangerous in the wrong hands and there is no way to make sure they don't get in to the wrong hands. If people love this breed they shouldn't buy the puppies and sure as hell shouldn't be breeding them. It the cruellest thing in the world to buy a pit bull pup knowing it could be taken and killed. In my eyes if i saw someone walking down the road with a pit bull puppy i look at them with the same disgust as a person who is a animal abuser. They bought that puppy and encouraged illegal breeding which leads to god knows how many dogs being pts. I too think these dogs are beautiful but humans have corrupted them and we have to take responsability for that.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Marley boy said:


> I don't think the law should be lifted, they can be dangerous in the wrong hands and there is no way to make sure they don't get in to the wrong hands. If people love this breed they shouldn't buy the puppies and sure as hell shouldn't be breeding them. It the cruellest thing in the world to buy a pit bull pup knowing it could be taken and killed. In my eyes if i saw someone walking down the road with a pit bull puppy i look at them with the same disgust as a person who is a animal abuser. They bought that puppy and encouraged illegal breeding which leads to god knows how many dogs being pts. I too think these dogs are beautiful but humans have corrupted them and we have to take responsability for that.


I agree wholeheartedly, the fact is these dogs are illegal & there is a lot of cruelty involved in the breeding of these beautiful dogs. The only bit I disagree with is not lifting the ban. Making them illegal has made them highly prized by by the sort of scummy people who are the worst sort of owners. I believe lifting the ban on all the illegal breeds wouldn't increase the number of dog attacks but it would improve the welfare of many dogs. The law hasn't worked as it stands


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Marley boy said:


> I don't think the law should be lifted, *they can be dangerous in the wrong hands and there is no way to make sure they don't get in to the wrong hands.* If people love this breed they shouldn't buy the puppies and sure as hell shouldn't be breeding them..


GSD, Rotts, Staffies, dobies, ANY BREED OF DOG, chihuahuas can be dangerous in the wrong hands! Should we just ban them all because of nob heads using them as weapons?

Its not the dogs that need putting down...its at the other end of the lead.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

There's no getting over the fact that different breeds are in existence because they have different character traits. My dogs are both retrievers (different types of retriever breeds but same "job") and so have been selectively bred over time to love water and carrying things around and also to get on well with other dogs that may be out at a shoot at the same time as them. My last dog was a GSD and he was very different to the 2 we have now. He was very loyal to his immediate family yet aloof with strangers and very protective of his property - a natural guarding breed. Pit bulls are VERY beautiful and handsome yet have been bred to fight and with their huge muscle mass can do a lot of damage. Trouble is the law in not enforcable because most people (including police) can't tell a tall staff from a pitbull or even many of the other bully breeds (plus there are never enough police around anyway). You only have to watch that pitbull rescue documentary on Animal Planet (all about a rescue for pitbulls based in California) to see how careful they have to be to keep all dogs separate and there is always a mad panic if one escapes.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Blitz said:


> But - the dog in Homeward Bound isnt a pit bull. I thought pit bulls were just rather longer legged editions of staffies, not huge dogs like that one.


Yeah, Chance in HB is an American Bull dog, MASSIVE difference.

Pit Bulls don't look anything like that?!


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> But - the dog in Homeward Bound isnt a pit bull. I thought pit bulls were just rather longer legged editions of staffies, not huge dogs like that one.


the shape and size of Pit bulls varies a lot, the original game breed pit bulls are quite lean, however there has been a trend over the last few decades in the US to breed heavier larger pitbulls. to the extent that over the last decade or so there has been a new breed(though its not recognised by the KC) called the American Bully which is a very stocky variation of the pitbull.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Just got back from a quick walk and across the other side of the road was a guy walking two American Pitbulls. Polite guy said hello..his dogs looked amazing..biiig and strong.
> 
> Wonderful looking dogs,* shame they are a banned breed![*/QUOTE]
> 
> Then how come he's walking 2 of them, and if does have permission to keep them, they should be muzzled.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

The dog is Homeward Bound is a Scotts type American Bulldog.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Marley boy said:


> I don't think the law should be lifted, they can be dangerous in the wrong hands and there is no way to make sure they don't get in to the wrong hands


 so can a GSD or a Rottweiler, or even a Lab or a BC, or any large dog. In fact a dog that has been breed for guarding is more likely to be human aggressive, because they have bee breed to be suspicious of strangers. Bully breeds while they have been breed for dog aggression, they have been breed to be people friendly and generally make rubbish guard dogs.



> If people love this breed they shouldn't buy the puppies and sure as hell shouldn't be breeding them. It the cruellest thing in the world to buy a pit bull pup knowing it could be taken and killed. In my eyes if i saw someone walking down the road with a pit bull puppy i look at them with the same disgust as a person who is a animal abuser. They bought that puppy and encouraged illegal breeding which leads to god knows how many dogs being pts. I too think these dogs are beautiful but humans have corrupted them and we have to take responsability for that.


This I agree with, to buy an illegal breed of dog, encourages back yard breeding and criminality and leaves your dog constantly under the threat of being confiscated and PTS.

IMHO the only way to solve this is to get ride of the dangerous dogs act, and enact legislation that will put the emphases on responsible dog ownership and not the breed. let responsible dog owners who want to own and breed pit bulls do so but come down hard on those who are irresponsible with the breed.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

A nice correct show winning APBT


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Marley boy said:


> I don't think the law should be lifted, they can be dangerous in the wrong hands and there is no way to make sure they don't get in to the wrong hands..


Same with a Rotty, GSD, doberman, akita, husky... in fact any large breed of dog! The law is stupid. Dogs are not dangerous, it is people. And the law is doing NOTHING to stop the illicit breeding that goes on.

Pitbulls were bred for fighting OTHER dogs, not humans.



Marley boy said:


> If people love this breed they shouldn't buy the puppies and sure as hell shouldn't be breeding them. It the cruellest thing in the world to buy a pit bull pup knowing it could be taken and killed. In my eyes if i saw someone walking down the road with a pit bull puppy i look at them with the same disgust as a person who is a animal abuser. They bought that puppy and encouraged illegal breeding which leads to god knows how many dogs being pts. I too think these dogs are beautiful but humans have corrupted them and we have to take responsability for that.


That I agree with.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> to buy an illegal breed of dog, encourages back yard breeding and criminality and leaves your dog constantly under the threat of being confiscated and PTS.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Erm biig dogs? yeah those arn't pitties  pitts are a medium sized dog.

This below is an American Bulldog, they are not a banned breed and are quite big they atleast rival the size of an akita


















I'd rather pitties were legal, staffies are already being put into bad hands should we ban staffies, rotties, shepherds, mastiffs etc as they'll easily make it easy and the next once those are gone they'll take new breeds even labradors and turn 'em agressive or malamutes.


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## katiiejaneox (May 14, 2011)

Marley boy said:


> I don't think the law should be lifted, they can be dangerous in the wrong hands and there is no way to make sure they don't get in to the wrong hands. If people love this breed they shouldn't buy the puppies and sure as hell shouldn't be breeding them. It the cruellest thing in the world to buy a pit bull pup knowing it could be taken and killed. In my eyes if i saw someone walking down the road with a pit bull puppy i look at them with the same disgust as a person who is a animal abuser. They bought that puppy and encouraged illegal breeding which leads to god knows how many dogs being pts. I too think these dogs are beautiful but humans have corrupted them and we have to take responsability for that.


That's the same as saying all dogs should be banned because any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands!!

I agree with the breeding and buying of the dogs, its just so wrong!!


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## katiiejaneox (May 14, 2011)

Blitz said:


> But - the dog in Homeward Bound isnt a pit bull. I thought pit bulls were just rather longer legged editions of staffies, not huge dogs like that one.


I don't think anyone will ever know what a true pitbull is any more due to the over breeding and how awful they look now.

From a good reputable ethical breeder an APBT should just be a larger sized staffie - these days you get the ones that can barely breath due to the weight they are bearing! SIGH :mad2:

To be fair was the person even sure it was a APBT? There are loads of staffies being over bred in the world and bybers creating these bigger, wider stronger looking dogs.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

I didn't think pitbull was an actual breed? More a type of dog?

I know there is the american staffordshire terrier, which look like big staffies. Were these once pitbulls but the name was changed?

There were 200 american staffs at the world show! A very popular breed.

I saw some Fila Brasileiro at the world show. The judge kept at least 5 paces away from them! Didn't go near them! and a couple of them were ready to have a go if he got close  . One grab a woman on the arm as she walked past, and that had just won reserve best dog!


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Tollisty said:


> I didn't think pitbull was an actual breed? More a type of dog?
> 
> I know there is the american staffordshire terrier, which look like big staffies. Were these once pitbulls but the name was changed?
> 
> ...


Pit bull is a type of dog, within that type there are American Pit Bull Terriers, and American Staffordshire Terriers(and to some degree staffies and american bullies), the APBT and AmStaff are very closely related an were the same breed until the 1930's when the American Kennel Club registered them as AmStaffs and the United Kennel Club registered them as APBT.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

The guy at the other end of the lead seemed sound to be fair..he saw me walking up with Sammy and stopped more than a hundred yards away..so i crossed over...also very polite when i spoke to him.

His dogs were not wide at all but very lean and taller than a staffie..actually they looked alot like this










All that banning the breed has done is made these dogs very popular within the thug wannabe community..lifting the ban would encourage healthier dogs with better temperament as that is something breeders would breed for.

Besides what has banning the breeds achieved? Fighting rings are still around..staffs are used to fight..will they ban them too? The Akita too is a fighting breed..do we want these banned? How far will the law go as any dog can be forced to fight and any dog can attack a person or child.

I see this law as bad as the prohibition period in the USA..what did banning alchohol do? Increased illegal rings that profited from it..same as what is happening here with banning the pit..thugs will pay more for low quality dogs...therefore lining the pockets of back yard breeders.

The law is governed by people who have no idea about the breeds but associate certain dogs to be vicious. When will these people learn that its not the breed its the owners that need to be dealt with.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Tollisty said:


> I didn't think pitbull was an actual breed? More a type of dog?
> 
> I know there is the american staffordshire terrier, which look like big staffies. Were these once pitbulls but the name was changed?
> 
> ...


It's both a breed and type.


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

are we sure it wasn't an american bulldog?

It's not that i don't like the breed atall... But i dont think the ban should be lifted. There are too many people that would take advantage of their strength and power... Like many people sadly do with our lovely sbt's etc....
Its a hard topic tbh...
There are good reasons for lifting the law bit i think its outweighed by good reasons not to lift the law... This is just my personal view.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

I also found this very interesting:

Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cassia said:


> are we sure it wasn't an american bulldog?
> 
> It's not that i don't like the breed atall... But i dont think the ban should be lifted. There are too many people that would take advantage of their strength and power... Like many people sadly do with our lovely sbt's etc....
> Its a hard topic tbh...
> There are good reasons for lifting the law bit i think its outweighed by good reasons not to lift the law... This is just my personal view.


Yeh but these people that would take advantage of them already have them...its easy as anything to get yourself a Pit in this country..the law hasnt changed a thing. Lifting the ban would by far be better for the breed as legit breeders would breed for sound temperament.

All the ban has done is stopped law abiding people and breeders who want the best for the breed.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> I also found this very interesting:
> 
> Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


One of my favourites. :thumbup1:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Yeh but these people that would take advantage of them already have them...its easy as anything to get yourself a Pit in this country..the law hasnt changed a thing. Lifting the ban would by far be better for the breed as legit breeders would breed for sound temperament.
> 
> All the ban has done is stopped law abiding people and breeders who want the best for the breed.


Its not only that but people are crossing legal breeds in order to try & get dogs of pittie type, so that innocent dogs which don't even have any pit in them are being seized & destroyed, anyone who doesn't believe it happens visit the DDA Watch website
Its an appalling injustice, & if certain noisy people have their way, it could be Rotties, GSDs & Akitas next on the banned breed list


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I think it is a very hard topic really as you can see both sides of the argument so im not going to add anything on the should the ban be lifted side of things, but i will add that they are very beautiful dogs and it is a shame that they are used for something so horrific, but then again so are the countless staffies that they are using to fight  humanity can be so inhuman


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Can someone also tell me why the Dogo Argentino is banned?? After reading this they seem great with people:

Dogo Argentino Puppies Breeders Argentinos

The more im reading into these UK dog laws the more  im getting...they are weak and pathetic!

Will they add Akitas, Rotties and GSD's to this law too? Politicians are a bunch of muppets..instead of addressing the problem head on by tackling owners they just try and brush the problem under the rug so to speak hoping the problem vanishes...how wrong can these idiots be before they realise how to deal with the problem properly??


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Same with a Rotty, GSD, doberman, akita, husky... in fact any large breed of dog! The law is stupid. Dogs are not dangerous, it is people. And the law is doing NOTHING to stop the illicit breeding that goes on.
> 
> Pitbulls were bred for fighting OTHER dogs, not humans.
> 
> That I agree with.


totally agree with the point youre making except the husky isnt the best example lol.. they have no guarding instincts so love everyone burglers included...plus theyre not a large breed


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> totally agree with the point youre making except the husky isnt the best example lol.. they have no guarding instincts so love everyone burglers included...plus theyre not a large breed


Huskies will protect their owners though wont they? Saw a documentary couple months ago where a husky protected his injured owner from a bear.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Huskies will protect their owners though wont they? Saw a documentary couple months ago where a husky protected his injured owner from a bear.


Wouldnt most dogs in a fearful / intruder type situation though, no matter what size / breed?

(Afterall the little dogs all believe they are huuuuuge!)


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Wouldnt most dogs in a fearful / intruder type situation though, no matter what size / breed?
> 
> (Afterall the little dogs all believe they are huuuuuge!)


Harvey thinks he is a rottie


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I feel strongly about Breed Specific Legistration(BSL) and feel is mainly due to media. How many reports have you seen in the papers about a labrador biting someone? It's not considered newsworthy. The phenomenon isn't new.

In Denmark King Christian 7th (1749 - 1808) was influenced by an erection

King Christian 7th introduced a regulation that required that all dogs would be killed if they were not kept on a leash. One single incident in the waiting room of a recognized doctor had stirred up the respectable community. A young patient with rabies showed up, clearly suffering and only wearing a sheet. And under the sheet: a properly erect penis, which outraged all other respectable patients in the waiting room. They knew even back then that rabies primarily came from bats and rats, but because the young patient received so much attention for his amoral erection in a public space, the king clearly had to take action.

It's interesting to note that Holland, Scotland and Italy have had a BSL against the biggest and strongest dogs. Experience from the three countries shows that neither did it limit the number of bites, gave fewer serious accidents, or for that matter, made people more comfortable because of the ban. These three countries have chosen to amend or cancel the BSL.

In Denmark one year after BSL was introduced the number of dog bite incidents have increased. According to one report the number of dog bite incidents measured before and after the BSL was implemented, increased by 26%. The number of bite incidents where one of the 13 banned breeds are involved, have decreased. Before BSL was in effect the banned breeds accounted for just 6,5% of all dog bites, and this decreased to 4,7%.

You then need to look at what is considered a banned breed. What about crosses? How can the police who may not know anything about a banned breed judge what sort of dog something is? Without enforced licensing, even if BSL did work you are never going to stop the banned breeds being bred and simply encourage the "bad element" to own them.

I do believe some dog breeds are more dangerous than others. A bite from a Cane Corso is going to do more damage than a bite from a dachshund. I think the Dangerous Dogs Act is partly correct in that it places more emphasis on being in control of dogs. I do not agree with the blanket ban on specific breeds.

Edit: will say it's not necessarily the size of dog concerned but the power of the jaw which makes a lot of difference.

Information gleaned from Kenzo the Hovawart and Cecilie Thorslund, who dived into the background of the Danish Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) for a thesis judged with the highest top mark.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

No reflection on the breed or intention to cause offence, but out of a point of interest, husky/sled/type dogs are responsible for about half of all dog human related deaths in canada since they began recording them.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/DBRF-Canada-Copy-for-website.pdf

However, they still ban pitbulls.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Huskies will protect their owners though wont they? Saw a documentary couple months ago where a husky protected his injured owner from a bear.


oh i dare say they'd have ago at a bear lol...but no a typical sibe wouldnt protect its owner from any human they dont posses any guarding instincts they were bred to be friendly towards people, that is one of the characteristics of the breed .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Milliepoochie said:


> Wouldnt most dogs in a fearful / intruder type situation though, no matter what size / breed?
> 
> (Afterall the little dogs all believe they are huuuuuge!)


 not if they dont have the instinct to guard which siberians dont...mine would let me know if an intruder broke in but not by barking at them, i'd know by their noisey excitement at having someone new to fuss and lick to death


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> No reflection on the breed or intention to cause offence, but out of a point of interest, husky/sled/type dogs are responsible for about half of all dog human related deaths in canada since they began recording them.
> 
> http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/DBRF-Canada-Copy-for-website.pdf
> 
> However, they still ban pitbulls.


Interesting to note that a lot of those dogs are chained or tethered, I believe its usual with working sled dogs. Also it seems to be more acceptable for pet dogs to be chained up in a garden over there & in America, I wonder how being chained up most of the time is affecting these dogs psychologically


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Cassia said:


> are we sure it wasn't an american bulldog?
> 
> It's not that i don't like the breed atall... But i dont think the ban should be lifted. There are too many people that would take advantage of their strength and power... Like many people sadly do with our lovely sbt's etc....
> Its a hard topic tbh...
> There are good reasons for lifting the law bit i think its outweighed by good reasons not to lift the law... This is just my personal view.


Out of interest, what exactly has the law done? Its done nothing to stop people taking advantage of them as it is. They are now doing it with Staffs. Should we ban them? What about alsations as they were the status dog of the early 90s from what I can remember, or Rotties or akitias??

I don't think it is outweighed at all, it is a stupid law and perhaps if people put half as much effort into policing or educating dog owners on how to look after their dogs instead of simply telling them they are not allowed to own a specific dog we might get somewhere. 



noushka05 said:


> totally agree with the point youre making except the husky isnt the best example lol.. they have no guarding instincts so love everyone burglers included...plus theyre not a large breed


Well you get my drift. They are bigger than any of my two, certainly what I call "big"! But I'm a short ass!!

I'll swap husky for Mals then...



Milliepoochie said:


> Wouldnt most dogs in a fearful / intruder type situation though, no matter what size / breed?
> 
> (Afterall the little dogs all believe they are huuuuuge!)


Well, mine bark at people at the door. Once they are in the door they just want loves!



Goblin said:


> I do believe some dog breeds are more dangerous than others. A bite from a Cane Corso is going to do more damage than a bite from a dachshund. I think the Dangerous Dogs Act is partly correct in that it places more emphasis on being in control of dogs. I do not agree with the blanket ban on specific breeds.
> 
> Edit: will say it's not necessarily the size of dog concerned but the power of the jaw which makes a lot of difference.


You are right with the point about the jaw, I asked not so long back and poitned out that a newfoundland could do a lot more damage with its bite than a staff could, yet people want to cuddle those dogs.

All boils down to what you say about being in control. An out of control chiuhaha is going to cause more damage than an under control staff.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Out of interest, what exactly has the law done? Its done nothing to stop people taking advantage of them as it is. They are now doing it with Staffs. Should we ban them? What about alsations as they were the status dog of the early 90s from what I can remember, or Rotties or akitias??
> 
> I don't think it is outweighed at all, it is a stupid law and perhaps if people put half as much effort into policing or educating dog owners on how to look after their dogs instead of simply telling them they are not allowed to own a specific dog we might get somewhere.
> 
> ...


i hate to be picky but Mals have no guarding instincts either  but yes these pretty big to me aswell


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> Interesting to note that a lot of those dogs are chained or tethered, I believe its usual with working sled dogs. Also it seems to be more acceptable for pet dogs to be chained up in a garden over there & in America, I wonder how being chained up most of the time is affecting these dogs psychologically


It's certainly a sure way to end up with an aggressive dog. It's a noted problem in USA. Have you seen this organisation against it?

Mothers Against Dog Chaining: Attacks on Children


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> i hate to be picky but Mals have no guarding instincts either


I'm not talking about guarding instinct, I'm talking about dogs that idiots seem to think are fashion accessories and/or buy as status dogs which mean people see them as dangerous.

And tell that to my uncle. His Mal used to guard the fridge.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> I'm not talking about guarding instinct, I'm talking about dogs that idiots seem to think are fashion accessories and/or buy as status dogs which mean people see them as dangerous.
> 
> And tell that to my uncle. His Mal used to guard the fridge.


oh well i agree with you on that.. there certainly are plenty of idiots buying _and_ breeding these breeds:thumbdown:

sounds like your uncles dog was resource guarding tho


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I also think breeds differ between countries as far as temperament goes and also depends on if they are true working dogs or pets. A Husky bred for dog sled racing in Denmark/Canada will have a different temperament than that bred over generations to be a "simple" pet.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> I also think breeds differ between countries as far as temperament goes and also depends on if they are true working dogs or pets. A Husky bred for dog sled racing in Denmark/Canada will have a different temperament than that bred over generations to be a "simple" pet.


what are you saying those bred in Canada etc will have guarding instincts? lol

infact ive met a number of Canadian and Finnish imports at shows,these dogs were imported from working kennels and they have the same typical sibe temperament and characteristics the breed is known for...just like my 'simple' pets:thumbup1:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> not if they dont have the instinct to guard which siberians dont...mine would let me know if an intruder broke in but not by barking at them, i'd know by their noisey excitement at having someone new to fuss and lick to death





Horse and Hound said:


> Well, mine bark at people at the door. Once they are in the door they just want loves!


I wasnt talking about a natural guarding instinct but I think if any dog whether Rottie / Chihuahua or Mongrel found themselves in a stressful and violent situation (Where the owner is giving off distressed signals which the dog picks up on) then I think any dog has the ability to cause damage when put in a stressful enough situation.

A few breeds have been mentioned in this thread as 'just as dangerous' or 'the next dogs to be banned', Any dog can be dangerous.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I know someone who has a true pit bull, lovely dog but is taken out after dark, not taken to the vet in case the vet reports him and not left in the garden for too long because of the neighbours seeing him. What a sh*t life for a dog. 

He also has a Staffie and recently the two had a fight where the owner was very badly attacked by his pit, 37 stitches in his face and many bites to his arms and legs - none from the Staff. I don't liken pits to other breeds no more than I liken Mals to other breeds. Some dogs are "different" more primal and have breed instincts very ingrained.

Of course any breed can cause damage, i'm well aware Flynn at 60kgs can and to see him crunch his way through a pig head shows me how strong his jaws are but I always have him under proper control when out, he's been raised with love and affection and known nothing but kindness. On the other hand some poor dogs have been raised with cruelty and purposely made aggressive, combine that with a strong trait and irresponsible ownership and you'll have trouble regardless of breed. 

I'm putting money of this guy I knows Pit eventually either doing him more harm, his Staffie more harm or being PTS. He's in a situation now where he's scared of his own dog, my only hope is he doesn't just dump it somewhere because he'd be too scared to take it to be euthanised properly.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Milliepoochie said:


> I wasnt talking about a natural guarding instinct but I think if any dog whether Rottie / Chihuahua or Mongrel found themselves in a stressful and violent situation (Where the owner is giving off distressed signals which the dog picks up on) then I think any dog has the ability to cause damage when put in a stressful enough situation.
> 
> A few breeds have been mentioned in this thread as 'just as dangerous' or 'the next dogs to be banned', Any dog can be dangerous.


im pretty sure the breeds you mentioned above would react ...but its because they do posess a guarding instinct, which is why most dogs bark when someone knocks on the door....huskies dont, and i know all dogs have the ability to cause damaged when theyre stressed but ive a feeling mine still wouldnt hurt anyone lol


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> infact ive met a number of Canadian and Finnish imports at shows,these dogs were imported from working kennels and they have the same typical sibe temperament and characteristics the breed is known for...just like my 'simple' pets:thumbup1:


You see I have also met some danish ones who were very protective. It's not a simply Yes/No answer. I do believe different countries have different "priorities" when it comes to breeding and temperament. Some of this could be based in how they view the dog's purpose.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> sounds like your uncles dog was resource guarding tho


Nah, I think he was just a clever bast**d. We had to bribe him away from the fridge with a rich tea biscuit if we ever wanted to go in it! Me thinks he just wanted food.

Only dog I know that was shut OUT of the kitchen when left in the house! One time he was left in it he got in the fridge and practically ate his way through the lot. 



Malmum said:


> Of course any breed can cause damage, i'm well aware Flynn at 60kgs can and to see him crunch his way through a pig head shows me how strong his jaws are but I always have him under proper control when out, he's been raised with love and affection and known nothing but kindness.


And thats the key. Why should breeds be banned when ANY dog can turn into a so called killer by being brought up irresponsibly?

Ban stupid owners, not dogs.  :mad2:


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2011)

interesting debate,unfortunatly i feel that these dogs should remain banned,if only for the reason that it attracts the wrong people to them.However i think more responsability should be put on the owners,of other dangerous breeds.I have a rottie,hes lovely,and i dont think hes got a gaurding instinct in him,i certainly wouldnt want to have to rely on him,he would be more interested in getting strokes.I dont know how you could police it,but i really feel you shouldnt just be able to go and buy a powerfull dog,without some sort of checks done on you.I agree with others that any dog can be dangerous,the difference being,if you get bitten by a chiwawa,you walk away,if you get bitten by a rottie,or gsd,you stay bitten!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> It's certainly a sure way to end up with an aggressive dog. It's a noted problem in USA. Have you seen this organisation against it?
> 
> Mothers Against Dog Chaining: Attacks on Children


Yes, I have heard of them, its good that there are people there who are trying to change things but I would imagine they have quite a lot of work on their hands before things will change


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> interesting debate,unfortunatly i feel that these dogs should remain banned,if only for the reason that it attracts the wrong people to them.However i think more responsability should be put on the owners,of other dangerous breeds.I have a rottie,hes lovely,and i dont think hes got a gaurding instinct in him,i certainly wouldnt want to have to rely on him,he would be more interested in getting strokes.I dont know how you could police it,but i really feel you shouldnt just be able to go and buy a powerfull dog,without some sort of checks done on you.I agree with others that any dog can be dangerous,the difference being,if you get bitten by a chiwawa,you walk away,if you get bitten by a rottie,or gsd,you stay bitten!


The only reason that the wrong people are attracted to them is because they are banned.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I know someone who has a true pit bull, lovely dog but is taken out after dark, not taken to the vet in case the vet reports him and not left in the garden for too long because of the neighbours seeing him. What a sh*t life for a dog.
> 
> He also has a Staffie and recently the two had a fight where the owner was very badly attacked by his pit, 37 stitches in his face and many bites to his arms and legs - none from the Staff. I don't liken pits to other breeds no more than I liken Mals to other breeds. Some dogs are "different" more primal and have breed instincts very ingrained.
> 
> ...


But this is the point, if the breed was legal then he could go to a behaviourist and find out what can be done..but because the breed is illegal he is stuck between a rock and a hard place..he probably doesnt wanna have it put down so wont take it to be seen and on top of that is also too scared to live with it...

Also the lack of exercise could have been a contributing factor..how long will he really go out after dark..not out in the garden much...all that pent up frustration has got to come out some shape or form..unfortunately for the owner it was released on him..

Had there been no ban the dog would be exercised properly and have a much better life...you gotta remember people will still get these dogs..so imo it is much more humane to not have the ban so they can be properly bred and then looked after.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> interesting debate,unfortunatly i feel that these dogs should remain banned,if only for the reason that it attracts the wrong people to them.However i think more responsability should be put on the owners,of other dangerous breeds.I have a rottie,hes lovely,and i dont think hes got a gaurding instinct in him,i certainly wouldnt want to have to rely on him,he would be more interested in getting strokes.I dont know how you could police it,but i really feel you shouldnt just be able to go and buy a powerfull dog,without some sort of checks done on you.


Again, pose the question. How, exactly, has the DDA STOPPED those powerful, so called "dangerous" breeds from being bought?

It hasn't. All its done is make it harder to police as breeders and the people buying are going underground.

How would you like it if say they turned round tomorrow and out ruled Rotties, as they were now considered a danger?

Its a farcical law, it really is and one that really gets my back up. I didn't know much about it until I got my staff, but reading up on it...honestly, its pathetic.

And the point about being bitten by a chi is less of an issue than a bigger dog, it might hurt a lot less, but it is still a bite. A dog that bites is dangerous, regardless of its size. You shouldn't sweep an entire breed up as a danger because of it.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Tapir said:


> GSD, Rotts, Staffies, dobies, ANY BREED OF DOG, chihuahuas can be dangerous in the wrong hands! Should we just ban them all because of nob heads using them as weapons?
> 
> Its not the dogs that need putting down...its at the other end of the lead.


True enough, but given the option of being attacked by a chihuahua or a pit bull type I think I'd be happier with the former. I've yet to hear of a child being killed by a chihuahua, sadly, I have, like all of us, seen the horrors of what happens when pit bulls get out of control.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

springerpete said:


> True enough, but given the option of being attacked by a chihuahua or a pit bull type I think I'd be happier with the former. I've yet to hear of a child being killed by a chihuahua, sadly, I have, like all of us, seen the horrors of what happens when pit bulls get out of control.


But why blanker ban the breed?

All it does is make them more attractive to the types of morons that cause the issue.

There are children killed or seriously injured by labs all the time. Ban them as well?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> I have a rottie,hes lovely,and i dont think hes got a gaurding instinct in him,i certainly wouldnt want to have to rely on him,he would be more interested in getting strokes


You say that but there are a lot of countries where rotties are banned or have strict regulations and restrictions on them. How would you feel if rotties would be put on the banned list after one attacked someone and media highlighted it? Would you feel it was then justified banning dogs because they attract "the wrong element". The difficulty as always is most of us are responsible owners. If a breed is banned another breed will become the "fad" for bad owners. Should this breed then be banned until nothing is left apart from chihuahuas?

As you said, it has to come from enforcement and responsible ownership. The Dangerous Dogs Act could achieve that with proper enforcement without banning breeds.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> You see I have also met some danish ones who were very protective. It's not a simply Yes/No answer. I do believe different countries have different "priorities" when it comes to breeding and temperament. Some of this could be based in how they view the dog's purpose.


well they certainly arnt typical of the breed...maybe they were crosses, there are lots of imports in this country from all over the world, some of my dogs recent ancestors were imports from different countries, i think you'll find the vast majority of sibes share this characterisic of the breed , it stems from generation on generation being bred to be friendly towards people.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I really wish I'd saved the link I had found a while back where it showed the PSI of dog bites.

I'm sure Rotties were top, then there was GSD...Pits certainly weren't top. 

Anyone else got it? :001_huh:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

springerpete said:


> True enough, but given the option of being attacked by a chihuahua or a pit bull type I think I'd be happier with the former. I've yet to hear of a child being killed by a chihuahua, sadly, I have, like all of us, seen the horrors of what happens when pit bulls get out of control.


Pomeranian is the smallest dog to kill a child that I know of - Pomeranian Kills 6-Week-Old Girl

Although I would rather be attacked by a chihuahua than a pitbull. I would also prefer to be attacked by a pitbull than many, many other breeds of dogs out there. As far as man-stopping potential and ability to cause damage is concerned, I wouldn't be giving pitbulls top billing.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Strongest Dog Bites | eHow.com

Is this what your looking for??


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> I really wish I'd saved the link I had found a while back where it showed the PSI of dog bites.
> 
> I'm sure Rotties were top, then there was GSD...Pits certainly weren't top.
> 
> Anyone else got it? :001_huh:


Rotties were about average, pitbulls well below:

Malinois 198
Dutch Shepherd 224
Pitbull 230
GSD 238
AmBull 305
RTW 338
Mastiff 556
Kangal 743

YouTube - ‪Which dog has the highest bite force in the world? It comes down to the larger domestic dogs.‬‏

All to do with head size.

ETA: I might be out on some of those, i did it from memory, probably best to watch the vid.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> well they certainly arnt typical of the breed...maybe they were crosses, there are lots of imports in this country from all over the world, some of my dogs recent ancestors were imports from different countries, i think you'll find the vast majority of sibes share this characterisic of the breed , it stems from generation on generation being bred to be friendly towards people.


I would imagine that a lot of them would be Alaskan types as opposed to Siberian Huskies.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Rotties were about average, pitbulls well below:
> 
> Malinois 198
> Dutch Shepherd 224
> ...


Cheers, I think I'm getting mixed up!

I knew Pitts were way down the list though! ]

What the hell is a Kangal?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Cheers, I think I'm getting mixed up!
> 
> I knew Pitts were way down the list though! ]
> 
> What the hell is a Kangal?


Turkish flock guardian. Basically lives with the flock/herd and kills anything that interferes with them. Certainly a breed that I would rather face a pitbull instead of.

Anatolian Shepherd are KC recgnised here and is similar but a different breed, called a Karabash over there. I doubt any of the ones here have the temprement of a Kangal though.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

A small Chihuahua could cause as much damage as a Pit if the target is a young baby.

The media has played a massive role in calling certain breeds "killer dogs". First it was Pits but now they tend to give Akitas and Rotties a hard time. Even if you watch movies in the 80s they used to portray the Doberman as the vicious breed and now the Rottie...

Movies and media play a vital role in labelling certain breeds as uncontrollable... they should take the responsibility of educating people not scaremongering! 

But having nice stories about dogs wont sell papers..headlines sell papers and that usually means having "Killer Dog" in the title somewhere.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I would imagine that a lot of them would be Alaskan types as opposed to Siberian Huskies.


yes i would think so, although there are a lot of kennels there that do race pure siberian huskies...but if they were pure in Denmark or any country i would say that pretty unusual behaviour lol


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I hope the breed remains banned - only because I have had bad experiences with Staffies and feared for my dog's life when she was attacked. She was screaming in terror and the dog would not let go......a scene I will never forget.

Most of the problem is caused by owners who have not socialised their Staffies, or even encouraged aggression. The same type of owners will want Pit Bulls and I hate to think the damage one could do to another dog.

I have said all along that we should neuter and muzzle all of the owners who encourage aggression in their dogs


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

The wrong sort of people were attracted to Pitties before they were banned. I remember back before they were banned and they were mainly owned by young men who wanted to look hard. Pretty much the same as now. I don't advocate putting any dog to sleep because if it's breed however I cannot see the point of breeds of dogs that were bred for fighting when dog fighting is a cruel and barbaric sport which has been outlawed.

According to research there are more Pitties now in the UK than when the ban was created so I agree that it hasn't done much good. Plenty of the wrong sort of owner are also attracted to plethora of legal fighting/baiting breeds. What is the need to continue breeding dogs who are bred for these much outdated so called sports. No need to kill any of them, but why breed any more?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> The wrong sort of people were attracted to Pitties before they were banned. I remember back before they were banned and they were mainly owned by young men who wanted to look hard. Pretty much the same as now. I don't advocate putting any dog to sleep because if it's breed however I cannot see the point of breeds of dogs that were bred for fighting when dog fighting is a cruel and barbaric sport which has been outlawed.
> 
> According to research there are more Pitties now in the UK than when the ban was created so I agree that it hasn't done much good. Plenty of the wrong sort of owner are also attracted to plethora of legal fighting/baiting breeds. What is the need to continue breeding dogs who are bred for these much outdated so called sports. No need to kill any of them, but why breed any more?


Under that logic the Akita would need to be banned too?? It makes no sense banning a breed because then you end up just pushing it underground where it cant be monitored.

Id love there to be a petition to have this outdated law removed!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

kirksandallchins said:


> I hope the breed remains banned - only because I have had bad experiences with Staffies and feared for my dog's life when she was attacked. She was screaming in terror and the dog would not let go......a scene I will never forget.
> 
> Most of the problem is caused by owners who have not socialised their Staffies, or even encouraged aggression. The same type of owners will want Pit Bulls and I hate to think the damage one could do to another dog.
> 
> I have said all along that we should neuter and muzzle all of the owners who encourage aggression in their dogs


You want a breed banned because another breed attacked your dog? That cant be right surely..

Any dog can be trained to fight...idiots out there get cockerals to fight so whats the point in banning a breed??

Id rather the ban was lifted so that the Pit can be bred with a proper temperament.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Under that logic the Akita would need to be banned too?? It makes no sense banning a breed because then you end up just pushing it underground where it cant be monitored.
> 
> Id love there to be a petition to have this outdated law removed!


Yes that is my personal opinion on all baiting/fighting breeds. It makes perfect sense in my opinion. If no more were bred then none could fall into the wrong hands and suffer. If we all just stuck to the rules life would be so much better for us all 

Dog breeding isn't monitored anyway even for legal breeds, so I can't see how that argument would stand up. Just look how out of hand it's got with Staffies.

I don't mean any PTS or harmed just no more bred.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Yes that is my personal opinion on all baiting/fighting breeds. If no more were bred then none could fall into the wrong hands. If we all just stuck to the rules life would be so much better for us all


So would you ban GSDs, Rotties, Doberman, Mastiffs? You gotta think any medium to large breed can be used for dog fighting..

How do bans sort out the mess of idiot owners?


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

I dont think there are enough people that would want to own a pit bull that are responsable owners. I know for a fact that where I live if the ban was lifted the the world and his wife would be breeding them. The fact is they were banned for a reason.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> So would you ban *GSDs, Rotties, Doberman, Mastiffs?* You gotta think any medium to large breed can be used for dog fighting..
> 
> How do bans sort out the mess of idiot owners?


No they are guarding and herding breeds. I would just like to see fighting/baiting type dogs phased out as I think they are an outdated concept that no longer have a role in our society. It doesn't involve killing any dogs, just spay and neuter the ones alive today and let them pass away in a ripe old age and not create any more puppies.

ETA I think there is a huge role for GSDs in our society look at all the police and military dogs 

What reason do we have to keep breeding fighting/baiting type breeds?


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> So would you ban GSDs, Rotties, Doberman, Mastiffs? You gotta think any medium to large breed can be used for dog fighting..
> 
> How do bans sort out the mess of idiot owners?


How would you suggest the idiots are delt with? If there is no law about breeding or owning pitbulls they could never be prosecuted for anything. Ok the dogs wouldnt be put to sleep but they would end up in shelters that are already full. If rescues are full of staffs that cant find homes how the hell are pitbulls going to find homes.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Here is an example of why I think fighting type dogs no longer have a place in our society. This happened in London to a guide dog at work with it's blind owner.

[youtube_browser]MGK5PGeYs2A[/youtube_browser]


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Can someone also tell me why the Dogo Argentino is banned??
> After reading this they seem great with people...


i've met a number of Dogos, adults & pups - by 5-MO they're cool to strangers, in most cases, & by 6 to 7-MO 
they are often downright suspicious, which can easily lead to bites. People get a soft young pup & as s/he's THEIR pup, 
as s/he ages the young dog remains sweet to their handler & family; however, they often become untrusting & testy 
around strangers.

i hasten to add that *intelligent, responsible owners deliberately socialize their young Dogo from puphood 
right thru their second-year, as should anyone with any guarding-breed - * 2-YO is social-adulthood in such 
medium-to-large breeds, which is why the extended socialization is needed; even then, *maintenance is needed 
to keep that friendly, sociable, approachable dog-temp*. Becoming a hermit or leaving the dog at home, 
not interacting with the world at large, will cause them to regress to their breed-typical caution & paranoia.

Filas & Dogos & Rhodesian-Ridgebacks were/are big-game hunting breeds. They along with Ovtcharkas, Akbash 
& other livestock-guarding breeds [LGBs] are all independent, stranger-hostile breeds _UNLESS_ they are 
consistently socialized & taught that a friendly stranger is not a threat. They make Rotts look like pudding-dogs, in comparison.


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## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> ]Under that logic the Akita would need to be banned too??[/B] It makes no sense banning a breed because then you end up just pushing it underground where it cant be monitored.
> 
> Id love there to be a petition to have this outdated law removed!


I normally steer well clear of these threads, but this is not right Akitas are not fighting dogs, they are hunting dogs that then developed into farm dogs. They have been used in fights, but that is like saying a fork is a kind of sword as both have been used to stab someone

I am not smart enough to know the answer to breed specific legislation but calling an Akita a fighting dog is exactly what the kind of generalisation we are trying to avoid,


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

mamf said:


> I normally steer well clear of these threads, but this is not right Akitas are not fighting dogs, they are hunting dogs that then developed into farm dogs. They have been used in fights, but that is like saying a fork is a kind of sword as both have been used to stab someone
> 
> I am not smart enough to know the answer to breed specific legislation but calling an Akita a fighting dog is exactly what the kind of generalisation we are trying to avoid,


It wasn't river it was me  I called it a baiting dog not a fighting dog. I don't believe that any powerful hunting/fighting/baiting breed has a place as a pet. Maybe in their native country doing the purpose they were bred for but why have a dog like that as a pet?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Here is an example of why I think fighting type dogs no longer have a place in our society. This happened in London to a guide dog at work with it's blind owner.
> 
> [youtube_browser]MGK5PGeYs2A[/youtube_browser]


That had me in tears that was absolutely awful


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

tashax said:


> That had me in tears that was absolutely awful


Me too, horrific isn't it?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Its horrible! That dog was terrified and i cant imagine what that poor man had to go through. And the way the bloke was trying to get the dog off was awfull, that is why t**ts shouldnt own any dog let alone a dog like that


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## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

metaldog said:


> It wasn't river it was me  I called it a baiting dog not a fighting dog. I don't believe that any powerful hunting/fighting/baiting breed has a place as a pet. Maybe in their native country doing the purpose they were bred for but why have a dog like that as a pet?


like I said I'm not smart enough to know these answers, I dont have enough confidence in my knowledge to assert an opinion.. although as the Akita Inu is a a medium-large breed meant for farm work, I know far more powerful and boisterous working male labs than my Inu, so I guess it depends on the form and type of the individual breed.


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I personally think that if they lift the ban it will just open the breed up for more abuse. They are a misunderstood breed and they are not generally sought after by responsible people ( there are obviously some responsible owners) This breed is overbred and abused for its looks and characteristics, these dogs fight because they want to please their owner, they are normally trained to fight, its not instinct. The worse thing we can do for this breed is to breed more for the owners that want touse them as a status symbol or worse still for fighting.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Interesting to note that a lot of those dogs are chained or tethered, I believe its usual
> with working sled dogs. Also it seems to be more acceptable for pet dogs to be chained up in a garden over there & in America,
> I wonder how being chained up most of the time is affecting these dogs psychologically


this is very-true, short chains with individual dog-boxes or barrels or small igloos are the standard.

and YES - chaining any dog of any breed vastly increases the likelihood of defensive or offensive bites, both. 
- the chained dog cannot flee - & knows this.
- they are often vulnerable to evil-minded passersby or simply thoughtless or teasing children - *or adults*. 
- they become extremely-territorial about 'their' limited space. 
- guarding breeds are all made massively-worse by chaining re strangers, proximity, etc.


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## Little_em00 (Jun 14, 2011)

tashax said:


> That had me in tears that was absolutely awful


That's so shocking it's taken my breath away


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i've met a number of Dogos, adults & pups - by 5-MO they're cool to strangers, in most cases, & by 6 to 7-MO
> they are often downright suspicious, which can easily lead to bites. People get a soft young pup & as s/he's THEIR pup,
> as s/he ages the young dog remains sweet to their handler & family; however, they often become untrusting & testy
> around strangers.
> ...


There were no Dogos in the country when they got banned. Tosas are not not fighting dogs..they wrestle and pin. Fools that have turned it into a fighting dog are the ones to blame..not the dog.

If you ban the so called fighting/hunting/baiting dogs what will be next on the list for fighting dogs??

Yeh GSD's and Rotties are herding and gaurding dogs but can just as easily be turned into fighting breeds.

The Doberman was bred to protect so its traits will have included aggression..will these be banned too?

Labs bite too and although not fighting dogs they can easily be turned by these t**ts that fight their dogs.

What other breeds would be banned too then???

Im sorry but i take personal offence when someone says the Akita should be banned too!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

metaldog said:


> No they are guarding and herding breeds. I would just like to see fighting/baiting type dogs phased out as I think they are an outdated concept that no longer have a role in our society. It doesn't involve killing any dogs, just spay and neuter the ones alive today and let them pass away in a ripe old age and not create any more puppies.
> 
> ETA I think there is a huge role for GSDs in our society look at all the police and military dogs
> 
> What reason do we have to keep breeding fighting/baiting type breeds?


You're right about the first three, but mastiffs were originally bred for fighting, baiting and as war dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> It's certainly a sure way to end up with an aggressive dog. It's a noted problem in USA.
> Have you seen this organisation against it?
> 
> Mothers Against Dog Chaining: Attacks on Children


*Dogs Deserve Better* is another excellent nationwide non-profit trying to end the practice, which is 
IMO & IME both dangerous to dogs & humans, & cruel - being chained in heat, cold, desert or deluge, being alone 
& bored for a decade - sheer numbing lack of enrichment or activity is a horrific cruelty, in itself.

dragging days with nothing to look forward to but a drink or a meal is a vision of H***.

several cities, counties, towns & townships have passed local laws to ban or severely limit chaining - 
TEMPERATURE is often specified, & many specify HOW LONG the dog may be tethered - usually only a few hours; 
some ban ALL tethering between dark & dawn, to prevent a cold, hot, lonely, etc, dog from barking at night.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> There were no Dogos in the country when they got banned. Tosas are not not fighting dogs..they wrestle and pin. Fools that have turned it into a fighting dog are the ones to blame..not the dog.
> 
> If you ban the so called fighting/hunting/baiting dogs what will be next on the list for fighting dogs??
> 
> ...


There you go again with your sugar coating  I don't want to kill your dog...just not to breed any more. Try not to take it personally it's not meant that way. I am talking about the bigger picture here.

You haven't answered any of my questions


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

For a change we need to make this about the dog not humans. Its the dogs right to be protected from abuse from people who abuse these dogs for their looks and to be used as a status symbol. We do not have the right to bring this breed back into the uk to be overbred by idiots that breed with poor examples of the breed. What about the right of the dogs not the right we have to own them


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> You're right about the first three, but mastiffs were originally bred for fighting, baiting and as war dogs.


Oh dear, then sadly I don't think there's a role for them either


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

The 5 Most Dangerous Dogs

:thumbup1: :thumbup1:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> There you go again with your sugar coating  I don't want to kill your dog...just not to breed any more. Try not to take it personally it's not meant that way. I am talking about the bigger picture here.
> 
> You haven't answered any of my questions


Your not talking about the bigger picture your talking about pushing breeds underground as that is all that happens.

As for your question why has such dogs as pets? its because it is our choice. I could ask you why should we have herding dogs as pets when all they will be doing is living in our homes as pets?

You also failed to answer my question..say there is a total and successful ban on fighting breeds what happens when the dog fighting rings turns to dogs like GSDs, Rotties, Labs and Mals etc? Ban those too?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Marley boy said:


> How would you suggest the idiots are delt with? If there is no law about breeding or owning pitbulls they could never be prosecuted for anything. Ok the dogs wouldnt be put to sleep but they would end up in shelters that are already full. If rescues are full of staffs that cant find homes how the hell are pitbulls going to find homes.


but the laws not working, theres probably more breeding and owning them now than when they were legal!.



metaldog said:


> Here is an example of why I think fighting type dogs no longer have a place in our society. This happened in London to a guide dog at work with it's blind owner.
> 
> [youtube_browser]MGK5PGeYs2A[/youtube_browser]


that dosent even look like a pit its more like an American bulldog...its owner needs stringing up the gormless idiot..poor guide dog

but Leo is a pit bull, one of vile Michael Vicks fighting dogs..now a therapy dog

Beaten-down dog from Vick case has his day - Health - Pet health - msnbc.com


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No breed should be banned some kind of enforceable licence would be much better and the dogs that require much more socialisation being in the hands of responsible breeders who ensure they go to the right homes. Shall we just ban all breeds bred for killing? The majority of the terriers for example would be capable of doing quite a bit of damage even something like a yorkie could seriously hurt a small child. 

I love that link gsd lover. I seen another one something about different types of humans


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> but the laws not working, theres probably more breeding and owning them now than when they were legal!.
> 
> that dosent even look like a pit its more like an American bulldog...its owner needs stringing up the gormless idiot..poor guide dog
> 
> ...


The Vick dogs are the perfect example of just how amazing pitbulls are. Those dogs were brutalised used for fighting and the majority are now loving pets. Very few had to be euthanised.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

metaldog said:


> No they are guarding and herding breeds. I would just like to see fighting/baiting type dogs phased out as I think they are an outdated concept that no longer have a role in our society. It doesn't involve killing any dogs, just spay and neuter the ones alive today and let them pass away in a ripe old age and not create any more puppies.
> 
> ETA I think there is a huge role for GSDs in our society look at all the police and military dogs
> 
> What reason do we have to keep breeding fighting/baiting type breeds?


I own a fighting breed because I like them. Simple as that, it's freedom of choice. Most dogs rarely perform their original function. Lion hunting and wolf coursing must be pretty rare occurrences here so should we get rid of ridgebacks and borzois too?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

springerpete said:


> True enough, but given the option of being attacked by a Chihuahua or a pitbull-type,
> I think I'd be happier with the former. I've yet to hear of a child being killed by a Chihuahua...


an infant in the USA was killed by a Pomeranian - which as far as i'm concerned, is pretty much a Chi 
with a long-coat & a ring-tail. :blink: Anything with a mouth can bite - a 200# snapping-turtle will injure U worse 
than a 2# macaw, but both can deliver wickedly-painful, disfiguring bites - the main difference is the size of the beak.

claiming bites from pit-types are 'worse' than bites from GSDs, Rotts, Dobes, Mals, etc, is silly. Any severe bite from 
a dog over 45 or 50# is going to be very bad; see Dunbar's bite levels which rate the severity of bites for more 
graphic info - a simple puncture or scratches vs a full-mouth bite vs a mauling sustained bite with shaking?

i've seen Fox Terriers bite & shake themselves violently IN MID-AIR while biting, & a 10 to 12# dog jerking 
ferociously while clamped-on can leave one helluva hematoma. :shocked: very, very ugly.

_any dog CAN bite; the circs under which they WILL bite, vary widely._


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> I own a fighting breed because I like them. Simple as that, it's freedom of choice. Most dogs rarely perform their original function. Lion hunting and wolf coursing must be pretty rare occurrences here so should we get rid of ridgebacks and borzois too?


I've never said we should get rid of any dogs quite the contrary in fact, I've said they should be allowed to live long and happy lives.

I'm sure there are people out there who would like the freedom of choice to do all sorts of things that are banned. As I see it it would be better for a few humans to lose out on freedom of choice in order to prevent the suffering of thousands of dogs.

What is the point of continuing to breed fighting and baiting type dogs as pets when so many fall into the wrong hands and the breeds are so attractive to the more unsavoury members of society?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Interesting DDA fact. Prior to the law in 1991 nobody had been killed by a pitbull. There were two high profile attacks that predicated the law. A young girl and a male factory worker. In both instances, neither dog was either captured or formally identified, but were attributed as pitbulls in the media. Now look at the situation afterwards. Two deaths by pitbulls and constant newspaper reports of attacks on animals and people. It really does prove how pointless and ineffective the DDA is.

Got to walk my status dogs now 

ETA I put a wink at the end but it didn't appear. Damn iPhone


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

metaldog said:


> I've never said we should get rid of any dogs quite the contrary in fact, I've said they should be allowed to live long and happy lives.
> 
> I'm sure there are people out there who would like the freedom of choice to do all sorts of things that are banned. As I see it it would be better for a few humans to lose out on freedom of choice in order to prevent the suffering of thousands of dogs.
> 
> What is the point of continuing to breed fighting and baiting type dogs as pets when so many fall into the wrong hands and the breeds are so attractive to the more unsavoury members of society?


Great lets go kill all the soft boston terriers who are pets after all originally bred as fighters, most of the terriers bait dogs after all, boxers bull baiting, bulldogs again bull baiting.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I've never said we should get rid of any dogs quite the contrary in fact, I've said they should be allowed to live long and happy lives.
> 
> I'm sure there are people out there who would like the freedom of choice to do all sorts of things that are banned. As I see it it would be better for a few humans to lose out on freedom of choice in order to prevent the suffering of thousands of dogs.
> 
> What is the point of continuing to breed fighting and baiting type dogs as pets when so many fall into the wrong hands and the breeds are so attractive to the more unsavoury members of society?


You keep dodging facts. More people own Pits now than before the ban..all a ban does is raise the price of a dog as it can be labelled rare...phasing out dogs would have the same effect..rare dogs bred by backyard breeders that resemble nothing about the breed.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Great lets go kill all the soft boston terriers who are pets after all originally bred as fighters, most of the terriers bait dogs after all, boxers bull baiting, bulldogs again bull baiting.


I don't know where you get the idea from that I want to kill any dogs : :


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You want to ban them right same thing. I don't know about you I don't want a world with terriers or boxers


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

We own an American bulldog and an Old English Bulldog. Both of these could be classified as a fighting dog. The American Bulldog is banned in several countries. Both are soppy with people, one is dog aggressive as she was attacked by an australian shepherd when she was with a previous owner (and had lots of marks to prove it). The other is from a rescue and is great around other dogs of all sizes. Both are dogs my wife picked as she wanted them to go to a good loving home. She also simply likes the look of the breeds. She would also go for a true English Bulldog if it wasn't for the inbred health issues.

As to posting the video.. would it have made the news if it were a Jack Russel Terrier attacking the other dog? I very much doubt it.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

metaldog said:


> I've never said we should get rid of any dogs quite the contrary in fact, I've said they should be allowed to live long and happy lives.
> 
> I'm sure there are people out there who would like the freedom of choice to do all sorts of things that are banned. As I see it it would be better for a few humans to lose out on freedom of choice in order to prevent the suffering of thousands of dogs.
> 
> ...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh no kangals and CAOs would be gone quickly too probably right after the fighting dogs then the guard breeds would go. Course then so would the cheetahs as kangals are being bred to stop the farmers shooting them if the Westminster commentator is right


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> You keep dodging facts.* More people own Pits now than before the ban.*.all a ban does is raise the price of a dog as it can be labelled rare...phasing out dogs would have the same effect..rare dogs bred by backyard breeders that resemble nothing about the breed.


I am not dodging facts at all, I stated about there being more pitbull in the uk now than before the ban 



metaldog said:


> The wrong sort of people were attracted to Pitties before they were banned. I remember back before they were banned and they were mainly owned by young men who wanted to look hard. Pretty much the same as now. I don't advocate putting any dog to sleep because if it's breed however I cannot see the point of breeds of dogs that were bred for fighting when dog fighting is a cruel and barbaric sport which has been outlawed.
> 
> According to research there are more Pitties now in the UK than when the ban was created so I agree that it hasn't done much good. Plenty of the wrong sort of owner are also attracted to plethora of legal fighting/baiting breeds. What is the need to continue breeding dogs who are bred for these much outdated so called sports. No need to kill any of them, but why breed any more?


Perhaps it is easier for you to attack me than answer my question which I have asked repeatedly. 


> What is the need to continue breeding dogs who are bred for these much outdated so called sports?


I'd love to know your views on this please


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> I would just like to see fighting/baiting type dogs phased out as I think they are an outdated concept
> that no longer have a role in our society.


do U have any idea how many breeds this includes?

English Bulldogs were ORIGINALLY a fighting-breed, & they still throw dog-aggro dogs now & again - it's not 
rare, altho it's also thankfully not every litter - & they're not as athletic as an AmBull or AmStaff or Dogo.

but when i had one clasping *my left thigh* while i held a 9# Shih-Tzu out of his reach, it was obvious the dog -
who'd covered the 50-ft between us in the blink of an eye, after ripping the Flexi-box out of the handler's hand - 
*was very serious* about wanting to kill the dog in my hands, above his head - & i was dam*ed lucky he did not 
redirect, as this was an approx 60# intact male 2 to 3-YO English Bulldog, with a head bigger around than my thigh.

British Bull-terriers, Staffy Bull-Terriers, APBTs/AmStaffs [many cross-registered with both UKC & AKC], 
Dogos, Cane Corsos, Kangal, Akitas, Tosas, Bullmastiffs... have all been used to fight other dogs as a 'sport'.

they can all throw dog-aggro dogs; so can the many breeds who are noted for male-to-male dog-aggro: Bouvier, 
Tibetan Mastiff, Giant Schnauzer, & a number of others. How many breeds do U want to eliminate? 
where do we stop?

_Terrierrrists are, as a group, the MOST aggressive dogs extant. If JRTs were the size of GSDs, 
they'd live in zoos - & they'd be endangered._  nope - not kidding.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok there's no wolves or elks in Ireland any more lets ban irish wolfhounds, no otter hunting well otterhounds are almost extinct anyway so who really cares about them, foxhunting the same, badger baiting banned there go quite a few terriers and dachshunds. Need I go on


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

We live in the UK which is meant to be a democratic society where we have the right to choose. If you want the UK to become more like China then by all means...

But thankfully we live in a society where aslong as its not criminal we can pretty much do what we like..its just occassionally with blips like these dog laws that the UK lets itself down.

Guns are banned in the UK but easily just as accessible as a Pit if not more so.

Ban the tw*t not the breed. Harsher penalties on these ppl would be a better option not the current slap on the wrist laws.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> You want to ban them right same thing. I don't know about you I don't want a world with terriers or boxers


Phasing out a breed is nothing like killing dogs  I take offence that after reading my posts you continue to suggest that I want dogs destroyed!

You don't want a world without boxers and terriers. I want a world where aggressive dogs aren't bred from. It's a hypothetical discussion and I'm entitled to my opinion without getting slated as someone who wants to kill innocent animal!

I quite like small hunting terriers BTW


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> We live in the UK which is meant to be a democratic society where we have the right to choose. If you want the UK to become more like China then by all means...
> 
> But thankfully we live in a society where aslong as its not criminal we can pretty much do what we like..its just occassionally with blips like these dog laws that the UK lets itself down.
> 
> ...


You still haven't answered my question...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No one wants aggressive dogs bred  but you want fighting and baiting dogs banned. All of the terriers are bred as hunting dogs and can be aggressive with other dogs including the ones in the toy group, dachshunds the same because they had to be tough. Taking on pretty vicious vermin in the dark and all that. Phasing out a breed is the same as killing them there will be no more left. Cairns can be dog aggressive although generally they're not as bad as other terriers so there would be my dog gone


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> No one wants aggressive dogs bred  but you want fighting and baiting dogs banned. All of the terriers are bred as hunting dogs and can be aggressive with other dogs including the ones in the toy group, dachshunds the same because they had to be tough. Taking on pretty vicious vermin in the dark and all that. Phasing out a breed is the same as killing them there will be no more left. Cairns can be dog aggressive although generally they're not as bad as other terriers so there would be my dog gone


Phasing out involves killing no dogs whatsoever!!!!!!! :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

To clarify I only would like to see large non native to the UK fighting/baiting dog breeds phased out. I feel like this because I've had bad experiences and seen so many threads on here about dogs getting killed, yes really actually killed by being torn apart by violent aggressive dogs. I'm not asking for you to share my opinion but you could at least respect it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I own a fighting breed because I like them. Simple as that, it's freedom of choice. Most dogs rarely perform their original function. Lion hunting and wolf coursing must be pretty rare occurrences here so should we get rid of ridgebacks and borzois too?


and theyre all wonderful breeds.



metaldog said:


> Phasing out a breed is nothing like killing dogs  I take offence that after reading my posts you continue to suggest that I want dogs destroyed!
> 
> You don't want a world without boxers and terriers. I want a world where aggressive dogs aren't bred from.


aggressive dogs shouldnt be bred from no matter what breed anyway so i'd agree with that...., pits are rarely human aggressive theyre a very people orientated breed ...did you see Michael Vicks dog? inspite of the abuse he and the other dogs had suffered they were still wonderful with people.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Staffordshire bull terrier? I don't know there was a Staffordshire any where else but in England? Pitbulls are english as well I believe their show cousins are called American Staffordshire terriers. So I guess they're safe by that rule. Bulldogs again english


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> You still haven't answered my question...


Please enlighten me to as what your question is please???


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> No one wants aggressive dogs bred  but you want *fighting and baiting dogs banned*. All of the terriers are bred as hunting dogs and can be aggressive with other dogs including the ones in the toy group, dachshunds the same because they had to be tough. Taking on pretty vicious vermin in the dark and all that. Phasing out a breed is the same as killing them there will be no more left. Cairns can be dog aggressive although generally they're not as bad as other terriers so there would be my dog gone


I think she means the breed should be allowed to become extinct, not outright banned, due to the illegality of what they were bred for
Although one could argue that all hunting dog breeds should be allowed to die out as bloodsports are illegal too


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ive read just about all the posts and i do think this is a difficult one and i can just about agree with parts of everyones views but i think its mostly down to the breeding and not the breed, ive met and know people with lovely natured staffies, rotties and gshds that have been bred correctly ect But i owned a rottie x gshd (didnt know it was these 2 breeds) and he was due to be pts at a year old through being terrible human aggressive he was an absolute liability had a huge guarding instinct and my homelife at the time couldnt have a dog like this, so through some idiot to put it very mildly he nearly lost his life so young. I dont think theres anything in the fact he was crossed by these 2 breeds but was badly bred, infact i know so. So whatever the breed if its bred and raised correctly than that has to minimise any problems, just my view.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I think she means the breed should be allowed to become extinct, not outright banned, due to the illegality of what they were bred for
> Although one could argue that all hunting dog breeds should be allowed to die out as bloodsports are illegal too


There goes the poor bulldogs then and the boxers again both from bloodsports now banned, otterhounds, dachshunds badger baiting is illegal I believe, foxhounds.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> and theyre all wonderful breeds.
> 
> aggressive dogs shouldnt be bred from no matter what breed anyway so i'd agree with that...., pits are rarely human aggressive theyre a very people orientated breed ...did you see Michael Vicks dog? inspite of the abuse he and the other dogs had suffered they were still wonderful with people.


Yes I've seen the dog  I'm not saying most pits are human aggressive but they are dog aggressive. I was watching Pitbulls and Parolees I think the work she does is amazing. There was an episode where she was asked to help a lady with a blue Pitbull with awful temperament problems. Tia said a lot of the blue lines have aggressive tendencies toward humans but people are ignoring this fact because there's money to be made because the blue dogs are in fashion. I just think a humane phasing out of the breed would solve a lot of suffering.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Please enlighten me to as what your question is please???


Go read my posts I've asked it several times


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

That you feel dog aggressive breeds should be banned or is it human aggressive breeds? I remember reading a survey the breed most likely to bite do you think it was a pitbull? Maybe a mastiff? No a chihuahua. Pekingeses were bred as personal protection dogs I guess they're out too? They're not British after all


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

metaldog said:


> Phasing out a breed is nothing like killing dogs  I take offence that after reading my posts you continue to suggest that I want dogs destroyed!
> 
> You don't want a world without boxers and terriers. I want a world where aggressive dogs aren't bred from. It's a hypothetical discussion and I'm entitled to my opinion without getting slated as someone who wants to kill innocent animal!
> 
> I quite like small hunting terriers BTW


I agree with not breeding from aggressive dogs completely, however that doesn't require phasing out entire breeds. Modern dogues have been softened in temperament by selective breeding. 100 years ago, you wouldn't want to go near one. Boston Terriers are another good example, as their temperaments now do not suggest the pitdog of old.

I haven't seen you say you want to kill dogs btw


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> That you feel dog aggressive breeds should be banned or is it human aggressive breeds? I remember reading a survey the breed most likely to bite do you think it was a pitbull? Maybe a mastiff? No a chihuahua.


I think that dog aggressive breeds that were bred specifically for dog fighting & are heavy/strong enough to kill another dog should not be bred from in the UK any more. Also I don't understand what role large baiting/bear hunting dogs have in our little society here on this island where there are clearly no bears


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mamf said:


> ...calling an Akita a fighting dog is exactly what the kind of generalisation we are trying to avoid.


it's a very well-known & thoroughly documented part of the Akita breed-history.
it is NOT a rumor, myth or slander of the breed - it's a fact.

Akita-Inu Breed History



> Old history books such as Kojiki (712AD) and Nihon Shoki (720AD) contain references to dogs. In the Kamakura era (1195-1333) fighting dogs are written about.
> 
> Dog fighting was considered to be quite popular in the Tokugawa era (1612-1868). It was during this era, around 1630,
> that a medium sized dog used for hunting, an Akita Matagi (bear-hunting dog) and sometimes referred to as Matagi-Inu,
> ...


Akitas were still being cross-bred with larger European breeds into the 1920s & 30s for dog-fighting; gambling 
in any form is insanely popular in Asia, cricket-fights can generate winning pots of hundreds or thousands of dollars.

timeline - 
Google

this is a photo of a circa-1900 public dog-fighting arena in Japan.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

metaldog said:


> I think that dog aggressive breeds that were bred specifically for dog fighting & are heavy/strong enough to kill another dog should not be bred from in the UK any more.


Well glen of imaal terriers are almost extinct anyway fighting dogs as well as general terrier jobs, certainly big and powerful enough to kill another dog and still I believe quite dog aggressive and even better they're not a native British breed wasn't that part of the criteria?


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Well glen of imaal terriers are almost extinct anyway fighting dogs as well as general terrier jobs, certainly big and powerful enough to kill another dog and still I believe quite dog aggressive and even better they're not a native British breed wasn't that part of the criteria?





> The Glen of Imaal Terrier is a dog of unknown origins, but is of irish descent. The breed received his name from the Glen of Imaal, in County Wick low, Ireland. The breeds early job was as a hunter, silently going after vermin, and going to ground after fox and badgers, dragging out the pray. Gamers put them in a pit with badgers timing them on the kill, until the so called sport was banned in 1966. The dogs were also used as turnspit dogs. The Glens were put on a treadmill and would walk for hours, turning a large rotisserie wheel that was used to cook meat over an open flame. This spunky little terrier can still catch vermin and with little training it can still be used to successfully hunt foxes and badgers.


Quite different to:



> Pit Bull Terrier: Developed from the Bull and Terrier types of yesteryear, the American Pit Bull Terrier comes from an indisputable history of pit-fighting. The breed's tenacity and accompanying strength are unmatched in the canine world.


And LFL description of the Akita above


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Having met a show Glen of Imaal at DD who was lunging at most of the dogs that went past, yes this was the one on the stall representing the breed I think the same one attacked someone of here cavalier, I don't doubt they would be capable of it. You don't think a dog needs to be courageous to take on badgers? That's why terriers have the bad rep they have as snappy dogs they had to be tough and tenacious and always looking for trouble to do their job.


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## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> it's a very well-known & thoroughly documented part of the Akita breed-history.
> it is NOT a rumor, myth or slander of the breed - it's a fact.
> 
> Akita-Inu Breed History
> ...


All very true, I never said it had not been used for fighting, but as your own evidence states these were largely cross breeds, created from a hunting dog. Modern Akita Inus much like Dogue de bordeaux are vastly different from their previous incarnations, and those that have sought to improve the breed have ensured that a well bred Akita Inu has neither the temprement nor inclination to act as a fighting dog. I am aware that The Tosa was perfected using Shikoku and Akitas as the Akitas in its hunting/farm form is not the ideal fighting dog, but when you are dealing with such an old breed I feel it is a bit unfair to generalise them as such.

I don't want a row, nor do I profess to know any if the answers to this question. Its hard not get defensive over your babies so I thank you for the info, which I have read, and will duck out of this thread as like a previous poster has said I agree with parts of both sides to this debate.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Having met a show Glen of Imaal at DD who was lunging at most of the dogs that went past, yes this was the one on the stall representing the breed I think the same one attacked someone of here cavalier, I don't doubt they would be capable of it. You don't think a dog needs to be courageous to take on badgers? That's why terriers have the bad rep they have as snappy dogs they had to be tough and tenacious and always looking for trouble to do their job.


Yes but not large and heavy jawed like a pit bull. And that dog on the stand should certainly not be bred from!

Do you know I own a terrier?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes I do. They have to have strong jaws to kill a fox or badger besides pitbull don't have the strongest jaws if I remember right that's kangals/anatolians and rotties and gsds have stronger jaws as well


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

metaldog said:


> Yes I've seen the dog  I'm not saying most pits are human aggressive but they are dog aggressive. I was watching Pitbulls and Parolees I think the work she does is amazing. There was an episode where she was asked to help a lady with a blue Pitbull with awful temperament problems. Tia said a lot of the blue lines have aggressive tendencies toward humans but people are ignoring this fact because there's money to be made because the blue dogs are in fashion. I just think a humane phasing out of the breed would solve a lot of suffering.


i do understand what youre saying, but the breed was suppose to be phased out under the DDA, and that has been a complete shambles breed specific legislation dosent work.

it should be deed not breed imo.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I don't believe that any powerful hunting/fighting/baiting breed has a place as a pet. Maybe in their native country doing the purpose they were bred for but why have a dog like that as a pet?


So you would ban, not only the bull breeds but almost all of the terrier family, all sight hounds/ and scent hounds. And why stop there any large dog even if it has been breed for herding can cause damage. So why not just ban all dogs that weigh more then 10lbs, in fact lets just do away with dogs as pets all together after all we do not need pet dogs!

why have a dog like that as a pet? because they make excellent pets, most bull breeds have been breed to be very human friendly and love people, yes they can be dog aggressive but that does not make them bad pets.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

A lot of dogs under 10lbs were bred for hunting too yorkies, chinese cresteds were ratters, english toy terriers, those toy fox terriers they have in the US, affenpinshers, in fact a lot of the toy group are bred down from terrier type dogs and of course the mini dachshunds


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> So you would ban, not only the bull breeds but almost all of the terrier family, all sight hounds/ and scent hounds. And why stop there any large dog even if it has been breed for herding can cause damage. So why not just ban all dogs that way more then 10lbs, in fact lets just do away with dogs as pets all together after all we do not need pet dogs?
> 
> why have a dog like that as a pet? because they make excellent pets, most bull breeds have been breed to be very human friendly and love people, yes they can be dog aggressive but that does not make them bad pets.


awww i love your signature:001_wub:


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

vizzy24 said:


> are normally trained to fight, its not instinct. .


Im sorry but you do not know anything about pitbulls, if you did you wouldn't spout such rubbish.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

metaldog said:


> Yes but not large and heavy jawed like a pit bull. And that dog on the stand should certainly not be bred from!
> 
> Do you know I own a terrier?


You probably won't like this fact, but in Ireland until 1968, every terrier breed had to be game tested on a wild badger in it's sett for at least five minutes before being awarded Champion status as a show dog under the Irish Kennel Club. It was called the Teastas Mor the Certificate of Gameness.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Phasing out involves killing no dogs whatsoever!!!!!!! :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
> 
> To clarify I only would like to see large non native to the UK fighting/baiting dog breeds phased out. I feel like this because I've had bad experiences and seen so many threads on here about dogs getting killed, yes really actually killed by being torn apart by violent aggressive dogs. I'm not asking for you to share my opinion but you could at least respect it.


haa run that past me again, you want to see "large non native to the UK fighting/baiting dog breeds phased out" so basically you are OK with staffs and Bull terriers as they are native to the UK? I am confused


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> Im sorry but you do not know anything about pitbulls, if you did you wouldn't spout such rubbish.


Vizzy is correct, it takes a few years of training to create a pitdog.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I think the question metaldog is referencing is


> What is the need to continue breeding dogs who are bred for these much outdated so called sports?


My answer is the same as any breed. Why continue to breed specific breeds if not to improve them? The American Bulldog is, as previously stated, frequently classified as a dangerous breed. In many places/countries they are still used as "hog dogs" (catching escaped pigs or hunting feral pigs/wild boar). In Europe however they are generally bred by reputable breeders to be less aggressive. This doesn't mean they don't need effective socialization and they are known to be very protective. It's once again knowing the breed and requirements as responsible owners. Who is to say that with responsible breeding the aggression could not be even further reduced. The same goes for a lot of the other breeds.

Statistics have shown that banning breeds has never reduced the number of dog bites in a population so why do countries still do it apart from media pressure?

I will say I appreciate the fact that metaldog, despite differing views on banning breeds, cares for dogs. You only have to note the thread where she was attacked to realize this.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:
Pit Bull Terrier: Developed from the Bull and Terrier types of yesteryear, the American Pit Bull Terrier comes from an indisputable history of pit-fighting. The breed's tenacity and accompanying strength are unmatched in the canine world.

They weren't, that's a common but false history. They are old bulldogs in pedigree and conformation.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

But very few dogs do the jobs they were bred for any more because they're illegal or because they're just pets or show dogs. You don't see many pekingeses being carried in sleeves and being used as personal protection dogs any more do you?


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> You probably won't like this fact, but in Ireland until 1968, every terrier breed had to be game tested on a wild badger in it's sett for at least five minutes before being awarded Champion status as a show dog under the Irish Kennel Club. It was called the Teastas Mor the Certificate of Gameness.


I neither like nor dislike the fact. It's history how can you dislike history, it's already happened. My ex's dog was a hunter, he hunted deer on an apple farm in somerset we used to work on. He killed two badgers one night on Glastonbury Tor but he'd never have fight another dog unless he had to defend himself.

I remember the UK before Pitbulls and other large fighting type dogs were imported and it used to be safe to walk your dog. I never used to hear that some poor elderly lady's little dog had been mauled to death by another dog, I hanker after those times.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

vizzy24 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I personally think that if they lift the ban it will just open the breed up for more abuse.
> [pitbull-types] are a misunderstood *breed* &... not generally sought after by responsible people ( there are obviously
> ...


 - "pitbull" is ONE breed - the American Pit-Bull Terrier, AKA the APBT in the United Kennel Club registry, 
AKA the American Staffordshire Terrier or AmStaff - which owners will be enormously insulted if U call their dog 
a 'pitbull', even tho many are cross-registered with *both* the AKC _*and*_ the UKC, since both breeds used precisely 
the same foundation-stock before the AKC banned dog-fights & the fighting-dog breeders founded the UKC, 
which in its turn got religion & ALSO banned dog-fighting, when the dog-fighters founded the ADBA - 
American Dog-Breeders Assoc, yet another registry for game-bred AKA fighting-dogs.

American Dog Breeders Association

PITS as a TYPE include over 2-dozen different breeds, mostly bulldog & terrier crosses from the 1600s 
thru the 1900s in Britain, the UK & America. *the Boston [Bull &] Terrier was originally a fighting-breed - the largest 
dogs fought in the 60# class; Shar-Pei were a dog-fighting breed, & can throw dog-aggro individuals. *



vizzy24 said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> [pitbull-types] are a misunderstood *breed*... This *breed* is overbred & abused for its looks
> & characteristics, *these dogs fight because they want to please their owner,
> they are normally trained to fight, it's not instinct*.


this, too, is inaccurate - dogs from game-bred lines [dog-fighting lines] can throw dog-aggro individuals. Generally, 
the dog-aggro begins around 16-WO with fairly-mild displays & worsens over time; by 12-MO the dog-aggro dog 
can be a real handful to control on-leash in the presence, even the distant presence, of other dogs. *this can however 
be reduced, re-trained or re-directed with B-Mod - it is not a death sentence, but it is also not 'curable'. The aggro is still 
present, & good management is required to keep the dog, & any other dogs, safe.* the dog-aggro impulse is still 
there - but the dog has learned other behaviors which are more-rewarding.

in the area where i live, rednose pitbulls [self-colored or pied] are more-likely to be dog-aggro. in other areas, 
the most-likely dogs may be brindle or piebald or blue - it depends on who is breeding, & what dogs they have - 
what colors or patterns the dogs they breed for fighting happen to be.

NON-fighting lines - pet-lines or show-lines - can also throw dog-aggro dogs, but they happen less often. 
the same things are true: they can be re-trained via B-Mod, they can be safely managed, they can be great dogs.

*it is possible for one dog to be both dog-aggro AND human-aggro, or dog-aggro AND predatory, 
or human-aggro AND predatory - or God help us, all three: dog-aggro, human-aggro AND predatory.* 
any one of the three can arise in any breed, too. Luckily, dog-aggro can exist *without* human-aggro.

so can predatory-impulses be separate from dog-aggro or human-aggro, BUT a much-smaller dog runs the risk 
of being seen as 'prey', not a dog - Greyhounds have killed other, small-breed dogs with dispatch. As Greyhounds 
are often kept in single-breed enclaves, they must be introduced to non-sighthounds with care - they can be 
terrified of prick-eared, rough-coated or ring-tailed dogs, having never seen such bizarre creatures.

human-aggro dogs can also be born - or made - in any breed; they occur more-often in some breeds than others. 
*guarding-breeds & highly-territorial breeds are more likely to throw human-aggro individuals by far than are 
any former-dogfighting breeds [except LGDs, who have that added risk of being turfy & stranger-suspicious].*



vizzy24 said:


> The [worst] thing we can do for [pit-types] is to breed more for the owners that want to use them
> as a status-symbol, or worse still, for fighting.


i personally advocate having anyone who wants a dog that will be over-35# have a clear criminal history: 
if U're a felon or have a history of violence or juvenile delinquency - fighting, theft, drugs, etc - YOU CAN'T HAVE 
any dog, of any breed, who will be over 35# as an adult, Period.

i don't care if the dog is a Flab-Lab, a Corso, a Newf, Boxer, Sibe, Swissy, Dane - who cares? U got a record, 
U can choose from a Chi or a Beagle, a Pom, mini-Poodle, Bichon, Border Terrier, or a 30# random-bred mutt.

i also strongly favor mandatory microchips for lifetime-ID, DNA-profiling of all dogs in urban or suburban areas 
[if U have to buy a license, U have to DNA-profile the dog & register their chip on the license-form], 
& mandatory training - at minimum attending puppy-socialization or basic-manners *finishing* by 9-MO 
at the latest, so that the dog is not much more than 6-MO at the oldest when classes begin.

this solves a whole raft of problems at the same time: 
- orphan-stools can be ID'd & the owner of record of that dog, FINED for fouling the environs. 
the maximum fine in VA-Beach is $250 for one violation, & the same for any subsequent.

- abandoned dogs [or other pets] can be traced - & the owner charged with animal-abandonment, unless they can 
prove the dog was missing & reported missing, stolen, sold or given away.

- the flood of 9-to-12-MO intact-male dogs in shelters would be stemmed if EVERY pup or dog *had to attend *
at least one 6 to 8-week long pup-socialization or basic-manners class completed before 9-months-age.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Vizzy is correct, it takes a few years of training to create a pitdog.


It may take training to make a pit dog but that does not mean that pit bulls are not naturally dog aggressive. Of course not all pit bulls are dog aggressive but its a significant part of the breed temperament. Talk to any experienced (and responsible) pit bull owner and they will tell you this.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

It is a shame that pitbulls are banned, but I think it is good for the breed... can you imagine just how many poorly trained and out of control pitbulls there would be else !!!

And just imagine how money greedy people would further ruin the breed and create even bigger far more dangerous dogs, through their lack of care and knowledge :frown2:

It is already happening I know, but it is atleast its kept at a minimum by the minority. If it wasnt a banned breed, I could imagine all staffies would be replaced with pitbulls and there would be pitbull puppies and pitbull crosses everywhere, majority owned by the irresponsible!

I used to know a lady who had a pitbull, it was a beautiful and loving dog within the home, adored everyone, not an aggressive bone in its body, because it was well looked after and cared about.
Due to the ban tho, it was not allowed to be walked away from the property :frown2: and had to be kept muzzelled while in the highley secured garden :frown2: simply because he was a pitbull !!!

I believe the lady had brought the dog as a pedigree and had papers etc before the ban was brought out. If he had not, I imagine he would have been dragged away to be PTS, for no other reason than his breed.

Not sure about metaldogs idea of phasing out all large dogs that have potential to kill another dog :001_huh: 
To phase dogs like Sailor out, simply because of what his breed was first initially bred for seems like a very over cautious thing. 
Once you only have small dogs bred for companionship.... what happens when the largest of these breeds attacks and kills the smaller ones ? Do we phase those out next intil we are only left with highly human aggressive teacup chihuahuas everywhere  

It doesnt matter what we do with the dogs to try to make things better.... because humans will never change and they will always be creating problems!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> There were no Dogos in the country when they got banned. Tosas are not not fighting dogs...
> they wrestle and pin. Fools that have turned it into a fighting dog are the ones to blame..not the dog.
> 
> If you ban the so called fighting/hunting/baiting dogs what will be next on the list for fighting dogs??
> ...


_excuse me, Rivers - 
i was providing INFORMATION. i did not & do not advocate BANNING 
any breed whatever. Try re-reading my post, please. :nono:

getting needlessly huffy & defensive is not helpful._


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

metaldog said:


> I neither like nor dislike the fact. It's history how can you dislike history, it's already happened. My ex's dog was a hunter, he hunted deer on an apple farm in somerset we used to work on. He killed two badgers one night on Glastonbury Tor but he'd never have fight another dog unless he had to defend himself.
> 
> I remember the UK before Pitbulls and other large fighting type dogs were imported and it used to be safe to walk your dog. I never used to hear that some poor elderly lady's little dog had been mauled to death by another dog, I hanker after those times.


i can honestly say i dont know anyone personally who has had their dog killed by a pit bull or any other breed once bred for fighting...but my friends yorkie puppy was savaged and killed by two JRT's, thats not to say that i dont think dogs who are know to be 'game' with other dogs shouldnt be under control because i do...but again its down to responsible dog ownership.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

We have lots of pitbulls all over the place but around here the bull breeds/ambulls/mastiffs are the ones trotting alongside their owners, looking up adoringly and perfectly behaved and yes most are owned by young male chavs. Unlike the majority of the toy dogs.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> But this is the point, if the breed was legal then he could go to a behaviourist and find out what can be done..but because the breed is illegal he is stuck between a rock and a hard place..he probably doesnt wanna have it put down so wont take it to be seen and on top of that is also too scared to live with it...
> 
> Also the lack of exercise could have been a contributing factor..how long will he really go out after dark..not out in the garden much...all that pent up frustration has got to come out some shape or form..unfortunately for the owner it was released on him..
> 
> Had there been no ban the dog would be exercised properly and have a much better life...you gotta remember people will still get these dogs..so imo it is much more humane to not have the ban so they can be properly bred and then looked after.


Like many owners of this type of dog the guy is an idiot! He got him just to say he has a Pit and then got a Staff for the same reason, now as if that wasn't enough he has got a Bulldog (all un neutered males) which is when the fights started. You can see just by the breeds he has chosen why he's got these dogs. Between them they are going to sort out some kind of hierarchy (he prob wouldn't know what that means) and he is gonna have to suffer the consequences along with the Pit if it ever needs vet treatment and he won't take it.

Because these are banned breeds - whether we agree with it or not - just to go and buy one shows how irresponsible you have to be. I couldn't live with knowing any dog of mine could simply be taken from me in the street for doing sod all wrong and destroyed and that's why i'd never have one, because ultimately it's the dogs who suffers. The people who breed these dogs should be horse whipped, they have no thought what so ever about their pups and can't possibly be called dog lovers when they bring pups into the world without a thought about their futures. I have no time for people who breed or buy them, they are just selfish b*stards and obviously don't care about dogs at all!


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I am well aware thats its a type rather than a breed, i was just typing quickly without thinking my apologies. I agree with a few things you say but you cannot say or convince me otherwise that a dog will enter this world without any human contact and become a dog killer/fighter. They are to some extent trained to fight. I do totally agree that an in depth dog ownership scheme needs to be in place (for all dogs no matter what breed) and until then they dont need to be over bred here as well as the usa and other countries. Its a breed that I like and I dont agree it should be bred out. Not because they are a so called fighter just because they are open to abuse and we should do our best not to encourage that considering this countries current attitude towards dogs.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> i personally advocate having anyone who wants a dog that will be over-35# have a clear criminal history:
> if U're a felon or have a history of violence or juvenile delinquency - fighting, theft, drugs, etc - YOU CAN'T HAVE
> any dog, of any breed, who will be over 35# as an adult, Period.
> 
> ...


But in the real world the government can't even find the resources to police and enforce a relatively simple piece of Breed Specific Legislation, let alone DNA test random dog turds.
Even if such a huge raft of dog legislation were to be introduced, it would be a spectacular failure just like the ridiculous DDA as, apart from a few highly publicised "show trials" it would be largely ignored and unenforced.

I believe that public education is the only longterm solution. Maybe the RSPCA
could use some of its ill-gotten gains to finance a properly organised public information offensive. It is the least they can do considering their involvement in the DDA.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> It may take training to make a pit dog but that does not mean that pit bulls are not naturally dog aggressive. Of course not all pit bulls are dog aggressive but its a significant part of the breed temperament. Talk to any experienced (and responsible) pit bull owner and they will tell you this.


I was commenting on the instinct part, which you disagreed with Vizzy on, which you have disagreed with in your comment strangely. Fighting pitbulls are bred for gameness, that's completely different to aggression. A pitdog that is aggressive is useless unless it has gameness. A game dog that is being beaten that doesn't turn it's back and refuse to scratch is a much better dog (in the eyes of a dog fighter) than one which is aggressive and refuses to scratch once it starts getting beaten.

Fighting is certainly not an instinct for the breed. The pitbull they bought in holland on the panorama program in holland went to a happy home in Ireland and I've seen the pictures of him playingwith other dogs on another forum.

Tripod posted a very good article on the myths of inherent dog aggression some while back pertaining to pitbulls. I don't have the link right now but will post tomorrow.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

metaldog said:


> I neither like nor dislike the fact. It's history how can you dislike history, it's already happened. My ex's dog was a hunter, he hunted deer on an apple farm in somerset we used to work on. He killed two badgers one night on Glastonbury Tor but he'd never have fight another dog unless he had to defend himself.
> 
> I remember the UK before Pitbulls and other large fighting type dogs were imported and it used to be safe to walk your dog. I never used to hear that some poor elderly lady's little dog had been mauled to death by another dog, I hanker after those times.


I simply mentioned that as your dog has a history of animal baiting and you dislike any breed with that.

However, it does beg the question, why you want to phase out animals with dog or animal baiting/fighting history when you feel that history isn't a problem?


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

sailor said:


> It is a shame that pitbulls are banned, but I think it is good for the breed... can you imagine just how many poorly trained and out of control pitbulls there would be else !!!


On the contrary, the amount of pitbulls on our streets has increased vastly since the imposition of the DDA. On one of the estates near me, there are at least 4 "breeders" churning out pitbulls (although they call them Irish Staffs) like there's no tomorrow. Not only that, but the local hard boys are queuing up to get their staffy bitches impregnated by these dogs.
Whether you agree with Breed Specific Legislation or not (and I don't), the fact is that the DDA has never been properly enforced. If it had, there would be no pitbulls on our streets.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Like many owners of this type of dog the guy is an idiot! He got him just to say he has a Pit and then got a Staff for the same reason, now as if that wasn't enough he has got a Bulldog (all un neutered males) which is when the fights started. You can see just by the breeds he has chosen why he's got these dogs. Between them they are going to sort out some kind of hierarchy (he prob wouldn't know what that means) and he is gonna have to suffer the consequences along with the Pit if it ever needs vet treatment and he won't take it.
> 
> Because these are banned breeds - whether we agree with it or not - just to go and buy one shows how irresponsible you have to be. I couldn't live with knowing any dog of mine could simply be taken from me in the street for doing sod all wrong and destroyed and that's why i'd never have one, because ultimately it's the dogs who suffers. The people who breed these dogs should be horse whipped, they have no thought what so ever about their pups and can't possibly be called dog lovers when they bring pups into the world without a thought about their futures. I have no time for people who breed or buy them, they are just selfish b*stards and obviously don't care about dogs at all!


i totally agree as much as i love pits and would like to see legislation changed while ever they are banned innocent dogs will suffer, and the people who breed them are the scum of the earth knowing that these poor dogs could be seized at anytime ....and people who cross dogs of this 'type' arnt much better either! there may not be a drop of pit blood in the dogs they breed but that dosent matter to the powers that be, because if they happen to look like a pit then they are in just as much danger of being seized...


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> A pitdog that is aggressive is useless unless it has gameness. A game dog that is being beaten that doesn't turn it's back and refuse to scratch is a much better dog (in the eyes of a dog fighter) than one which is aggressive and refuses to scratch once it starts getting beaten.


I wouldn't disagree with any of the above, of course DA in an of itself of no use to a dog man without gameness.



> Fighting is certainly not an instinct for the breed. The pitbull they bought in holland on the panorama program in holland went to a happy home in Ireland and I've seen the pictures of him playingwith other dogs on another forum.


This bit I would disagree with, there are always examples within a breed that buck the trend. However I would still maintain that many pit bulls are dog aggressive without training or mistreatment to become so.

anyway Im tired and its past my bed time, so Ill pick this up tomorrow


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> ...I only would like to see large non-native-to-the-UK, fighting / baiting dog breeds phased out.
> 
> I feel like this because I've had bad experiences & seen... many threads on [PF-uk] about dogs getting killed, yes, really -
> actually killed by being torn apart by violent aggressive dogs.


Greyhounds & Lurchers have been known to chase down & kill other, usually smaller breeds.

Greyhounds, Wolfhounds, GSDs & Siberians have chased down & killed cats, coyote & fox in the USA.

there never was a Golden Age when no dogs were violent toward other dogs - not in the UK, 
not in the USA, not in Europe, Africa, Canada, India, anywhere. Dogs are sometimes severely injured 
or killed by other dogs - it has happened in the past, it still happens, it will happen in the future.

good management - using leashes, doors, fences, gates - is imperative to prevent such incidents. 

in my childhood, our neighbor's two dogs chased down, caught & killed my 9-MO kitten in a foot of snow - right 
in front of me, a few feet off our porch - by ripping her left hind-leg off her body, pulling her between them; 
she bled to death. the dogs were approx 4-YO, sister & brother, sired by a very-nice, solidly trustworthy white GSD, 
out of a yellow-Lab bitch.

the neighbor owned the GSD - i knew Snowball well; i never met the Lab dam.

want to ban GSDs? ... ban Labs?... BAN SNOW? she'd probably have outrun the dogs, if the ground was clear. 
:nonod: i still remember how nauseated & shaken i was, afterward - my poor kitten lying stiff in the snow, 
blood all over the white, her eyes staring in terror. Lisa & Fio were a rotten pair of dogs, but they had a good owner; 
she was a very kind woman, none of her other dogs were like those 2. Why did they become such monsters?

THEY BIT PEOPLE, too - i usually carried an umbrella when i went to their house with a package from my mum. 
they'd slip behind, often with one barking in front, & try to bite Ur buttocks, calves or thighs. I did not trust them 
as far as i could spit - which even today, is not far.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I remember reading a survey the breed most likely to bite do you think it was a pit-type?
> Maybe a Mastiff? No-- a Chihuahua. Pekingeses were bred as personal protection dogs, I guess they're out, too?
> They're not British, after all.


a survey in the USA by researchers in the vet-medicine dept of the Univ of Pennsylvania found that the breed 
*most-likely to bite humans* was the Dachshund - which did not surprise many dog-trainers at all. 

Doxies are notoriously turfy, vocal & often snappy. They may not hang off yer neck, trying to rip yer carotid, 
but they'll shred yer legs; one postie in my college-town had 3 separate surgeries to repair torn muscles in his 
calves from a standard-Doxie who *went thru a screen-door bodily* & attacked him repeatedly for 3 city-blocks, 
leaving large chunks of skin missing & muscle ripped apart. He never did get rid of a serious limp in both legs; 
he worked sorting mail for the rest of his employment, he was too scared to consider going back to a route, even 
with a vehicle [apt-complexes & box-deliveries].


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

My friend has three standard smooths that aren't like that but I can imagine they can do quite a bit of damage. Anything that can take on badgers would be able to. The top 3 on the survey I read were chis, dachshunds and jack russells I may have gotten the order wrong but none of those really surprise me.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> ...Glen of Imaal Terriers are almost extinct, anyway; fighting dogs as well as general terrier jobs,
> certainly big and powerful enough to kill another dog and still I believe quite dog aggressive... even better,
> they're not a native British breed - wasn't that part of the criteria?


the various handlers of Bedlington Terriers were headed to the show-ring on Saturday at the UKC Centennial Show, 
& i stopped to ask one why - i had not seen other dogs being carried, & i asked was it to keep their legs clean? 
[there had been a thunderstorm the night before, & the grass was drenched.]

she said no - it was to keep them from picking quarrels along the way, :lol: which would considerably slow down 
their progress toward the ring; she said they were notorious, female & male both, for reacting to other dogs, 
any size, color, shape, temp - anywhere, any time. 

her little-lamb :thumbup: meanwhile, was eyeballing my 9-MO Akita bitch from the safety of her arms... 
& my dog was sitting, quite relaxed, looking up at her dog, unconcerned - while her little darling wriggled 
& muttered vague curses.  i was glad i did NOT have to carry my 80# dog, LOL.

she never lifted a lip at any dog, during the 4 days we were on the show-grounds - not once. :thumbup:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

As far as dog on human aggression is concerned, I've only thought that this is worthwhile as it's objective and has covered a reasonable amount of dogs American Temperament Test Society, Inc. | A sound mind in a sound body


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

raindog said:


> ...in the real world the government can't even find the resources to police and enforce a relatively
> simple piece of BSL, let alone DNA-test random dog turds.


the programs are self-funding, Rainy.  plus, here on the Chesapeake Bay & along the beaches, dog-stool is a major 
COST when it *closes beaches*, as it did my local beach for a week, a month ago - that hurts *tourist spending*.

several cities, as well as a number of gated communities & condo-associations, are already using DNA-profiling 
to prosecute violators of poop-pickup laws. :thumbup: and it works - the DNA-profile co$ts an average of $40, 
the fines average over $160 - one fine more than repays the cost of testing orphan stool-samples, AND prevents 
future violations, as 2nd & 3rd offenses are often much-more expensive - plus U can be fined PER STOOL. 

violate 3 times? first fine, $200; 2nd, $250; 3rd, $300 - that's without any court-costs, if they pursue U in the 
local small-claims court, U are liable for all court-fees, too. AND the city can add their own fine - condo-assoc 
fines U $200, city fines U $250, that's $450 for one violation.

nobody repeats the error - or at least, it's very very *very* rare to have a repeat violation. :thumbsup:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> the various handlers of Bedlington Terriers were headed to the show-ring on Saturday at the UKC Centennial Show,
> & i stopped to ask one why - i had not seen other dogs being carried, & i asked was it to keep their legs clean?
> [there had been a thunderstorm the night before, & the grass was drenched.]
> 
> ...


Sounds like a great akita but of course she should be banned . Terriers are their own worst enemies always looking for trouble and reactive they really are. I've heard bedlingtons can be bad with other dogs but very very loyal to their humans. Like I said the only glen I've ever met was at discover dogs representing the breed and lunging at every dog that walked past while his quite muscular male owner was struggling to hold him back


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mamf said:


> Modern Akita Inus much like Dogue de bordeaux are vastly different from their previous incarnations,
> and those that have sought to improve the breed have ensured that a well bred Akita Inu has neither the [temperment]
> nor inclination to act as a fighting dog.


just to point out - ALL the modern-day Akitas are descendants of those crossbreeds, as at one point after WW-2, 
there were no more than *one dozen purebred Akita Inu in all of Japan.* [& cloning had not been invented, yet.]

the modern-day Akita Inu, both the classic Japanese form & the American version with the dark-mask, 
are based on those blended Akitas of the 1920s & 30s. There is no 'modern Akita' without a fighting-heritage. 
the entire breed, white-masked, dark-masked, or no mask, is a reconstruction of the original.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

In Germany, at least on the island of Sylt dogs are only allowed on dog beaches. We'll find out what they are like shortly. Knowing Germans they are likely to enforce the idea of picking up after your dog which is not a bad thing. Accepting your responsibility ingrained into the cultural identity isn't to be ignored.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Goblin said:


> In Germany, at least on the island of Sylt dogs are only allowed on dog beaches.


the dogs here are not fouling the beaches themselves - the dog-stool is along curbsides, sidewalks, grassy medians, 
in city parks, along bike-paths & in landscape plantings of apartment complexes, on tanbark or gravel or lawns... 
and when it rains, it is washed into storm-drains, streets, small streams, etc, & wends its way eventually, 
to the sea... every rain breaks it down a bit more, it degrades, but the bacteria it contains move on.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this is not an extensive breed-history of pit-fighting dogs, but it's fairly accurate, tho not detailed - 
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup

& the period photos are excellent. :thumbsup:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> _excuse me, Rivers -
> i was providing INFORMATION. i did not & do not advocate BANNING
> any breed whatever. Try re-reading my post, please. :nono:
> 
> getting needlessly huffy & defensive is not helpful._


LOL sorry the only bit i was reffering to you was about no Dogos here when ban was put in place..the rest of the comment was aimed at those advocating bans..i apologise for the confusion Leashed


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> the programs are self-funding, Rainy.  plus, here on the Chesapeake Bay & along the beaches, dog-stool is a major
> COST when it *closes beaches*, as it did my local beach for a week, a month ago - that hurts *tourist spending*.
> 
> several cities, as well as a number of gated communities & condo-associations, are already using DNA-profiling
> ...


Maybe people in New England are more law abiding than those in Old England. We currently have an estimated 1.5 million people driving uninsured and untaxed vehicles on our roads - an offence which attracts huge fines and the confiscation of their vehicle. If this doesn't worry them, I can't see them rushing out to get a dog licence. What is possibly more worrying, I can't see anyone having the bottle to enforce such laws. If the police won't enforce the DDA, there is no way an unofficial uniformed jobsworth is going to put their personal safety at risk by trying to enforce these laws on some of our "no-go" estates.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

raindog said:


> If the police won't enforce the DDA, there is no way an unofficial uniformed jobsworth is going to put their personal safety at risk by trying to enforce these laws on some of our "no-go" estates.


Maybe this is the main problem. Make laws which makes certain breeds more attractive to the wrong sort of people but do not have the capability to enforce it. Can you imagine the lack of enforcement happening if it was to do with tax dodging?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> I wouldn't disagree with any of the above, of course DA in an of itself of no use to a dog man without gameness.
> 
> This bit I would disagree with, there are always examples within a breed that buck the trend. However I would still maintain that many pit bulls are dog aggressive without training or mistreatment to become so.
> 
> anyway Im tired and its past my bed time, so Ill pick this up tomorrow


I'd have to disagree with the last comment  here's the article I mentioned yesterday that disproves it - http://www.pitbullguru.com/InheritedDogAggression.pdf


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm a bit behind but a few pages back someone mentioned that they think all big dogs capable of kiliing another dog should be phased out.

I own a staffie she is a lovely happy dog friendly dog. She has been attacked twice both times the dog doing the attacking could and probably would have killed her...once by a boxer and once by a very big intact male lab...Lexi weighs 14.3 kg he was at least twice if not more times bigger and heavier than her and he had her by the throat and would NOT let go while my poor girl screamed.

Now labs are not fighting dogs but does this not show that they COULD be if trained that way, so phase out all 'fighting dogs' and you are jsut going to see a new phase of dogs.

And for the record, the most dog agressive dog I have met? My mums JRT. She is not allowed off lead as she will run up to another dog just to attack it...could she kill another dog, I have no doubt in my mind that yes, because regardless of the dog or the size she goes straight to the throat and she holds on, and I may be talking rubbish but I personally think that her grip is stronger than Lexis (My SBT) if the JRT gets a tennis ball in her mouth you can pick her up by the tennis ball, the weight of her jaw holds her...Lexi can't and has never been able to do that.


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## Mehy (Jun 30, 2011)

This is a difficult subject and could depend on ppls experiences. 
I once came across someone who had the most beautiful and friendly dog. He was the landlord of a pub and when he first moved to that area asked around if anyone knew where he could get four legged companion. the result was lovely but, this dog had been bred for the worst kind of circumstances. they had mixed rhodesian ridgeback, boxer and pitbull to try and acheive the ultimate "tough mans " dog. 
I was digusted with the background story but loved the dog. 
This is the kind of breeding that makes me sick.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Turkish flock guardian. Basically lives with the flock/herd and kills anything that interferes with them. Certainly a breed that I would rather face a pitbull instead of.
> 
> Anatolian Shepherd are KC recgnised here and is similar but a different breed, called a Karabash over there. I doubt any of the ones here have the temprement of a Kangal though.


Cheers, I've googled some pics and had a look. I've seen an Anatolian Shepherd, beautiful dogs!



Snoringbear said:


> I own a fighting breed because I like them. Simple as that, it's freedom of choice. Most dogs rarely perform their original function. Lion hunting and wolf coursing must be pretty rare occurrences here so should we get rid of ridgebacks and borzois too?


And Dalmations. I've not seen one trotting alongside a carriage yet...

Why would anyone want to make any breed of animal extinct?

Where do you stop? No one is allowed to own a dog/animal unless it is being used for its original purpose? 



metaldog said:


> I* feel like this because I've had bad experiences*.


Ah well, in that case I've had bad experiences with pugs, yorkshire terriers and Labs. So I want them banned...

The reason Pits are so badly bred, IMHO is because they are illegal. There is no club policing them, no registers, NOTHING. So all it does is means the idiots that want them will buy from other idiots who are breeding them with no health checks, not giving a sh*t about their temperaments...its done nothing to stop people buying or breeding them, nothing at all.

And the reason you never heard about some little old dears dog being attacked prior to the ban is because it probably wasn't fashionable to report on it.

My nanna's friend had a Pomeranian. That was set on and killed by two greyhounds. Ban them as well, eh? :mad2:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

raindog said:


> On the contrary, the amount of pitbulls on our streets has increased vastly since the imposition of the DDA. On one of the estates near me, there are at least 4 "breeders" churning out pitbulls (although they call them Irish Staffs) like there's no tomorrow. Not only that, but the local hard boys are queuing up to get their staffy bitches impregnated by these dogs.
> Whether you agree with Breed Specific Legislation or not (and I don't), the fact is that the DDA has never been properly enforced. If it had, there would be no pitbulls on our streets.


So if you know where these pitbulls are why dont you report them to the police. The police are not dog experts, they rely on information from the public, so give it to them.



Horse and Hound said:


> Cheers, I've googled some pics and had a look. I've seen an Anatolian Shepherd, beautiful dogs!
> 
> And Dalmations. I've not seen one trotting alongside a carriage yet...
> 
> ...


I have quoted all this but only want to comment on a couple of points. All dogs that are bred for a job need stimulation in the right direction to make good pets. Dalmatians are often out of control, destructive in the house and difficult to teach recall to - yet as you say they were bred to follow a carriage - and very many still do that. There are even carriage driving classes for dog and horse. My poodles follow in exactly the same with their heads under the carriage. Poodles were bred as gun dogs and need stimulation. How do you think they got the reputation of snappy, yappy dogs only suitable for old ladies - because they are bored!

And greyhounds! they frequently kill small dogs and cats. They should be on the lead and muzzled because they are bred to chase and kill and most are but it is the irresponsible owner that gives all these lovely breeds of dogs a bad name.

If you know what your dog was bred for then you can understand it and treat it appropriately and not expect every dog to behave in the same way with the same treatment.


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## C.l.familiaris (Dec 1, 2008)

You cannot DNA profile to find out whether a dog is an APBT.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Because of this stupid law we have innocent dogs like lennox on potential death row! Something needs to be done about this flawed law


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## C.l.familiaris (Dec 1, 2008)

If only it were that easy Ali Green campaigns tirelessly with DDA watch and its definately not an easy task.

Its been reviewed recently there was a public forum on it where everyone could put their views across, the RSPCA have said it does not work vets groups dislike it, and well quite clearly it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that its ineffective.

A vet accused our AB of being type when it was 4 months old, they cant even be properly identified when they are that young and even as an adult a quick glance is not enough to make a dangerous statement like that, if there are vets walking around spouting opinions on subjects they clearly know very little about then we really do have a problem.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Yes, DEFRA had a public consultation earlier this year. In the results about 75% of those who answered were for abolishing BSL. The results had vanished from the site last time I looked.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

raindog said:


> On the contrary, the amount of pitbulls on our streets has increased vastly since the imposition of the DDA. On one of the estates near me, there are at least 4 "breeders" churning out pitbulls (although they call them Irish Staffs) like there's no tomorrow. Not only that, but the local hard boys are queuing up to get their staffy bitches impregnated by these dogs.
> Whether you agree with Breed Specific Legislation or not (and I don't), the fact is that the DDA has never been properly enforced. If it had, there would be no pitbulls on our streets.


I agree with the pitbulls being more popular because they have this "dangerous banned" label on them, making them more desirable.
But if it was suddenly lifted, I really do believe it would make alot of people want to rush out and get one... I can just imagine what the gumtree adverts would look like... RARE pitbulls, get them now while they are fresh off the ban list....

I dont fully agree with the BSL because it means alot of innocent dogs are dying because of it and not to mention how poorly enforced it is.
But I just cant help but think the moment the ban was lifted, it would be a free for all and you would see a huge surge in pitbulls everywhere.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

There is a guy on my FB that breeds pitbulls, he has 1 puppy left for £200 as he says he is exporting the rest of the litter to a friend in Pakistan.

Wonder why he would be sending them there :frown2:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

sailor said:


> I agree with the pitbulls being more popular because they have this "dangerous banned" label on them, making them more desirable.
> But if it was suddenly lifted, I really do believe it would make alot of people want to rush out and get one... I can just imagine what the gumtree adverts would look like... RARE pitbulls, get them now while they are fresh off the ban list....
> 
> I dont fully agree with the BSL because it means alot of innocent dogs are dying because of it and not to mention how poorly enforced it is.
> But I just cant help but think the moment the ban was lifted, it would be a free for all and you would see a huge surge in pitbulls everywhere.


That is true..but the majority will look for dogs that are healthy examples of the breed not one from a random breeder off the local estate..

Besides those idiots who really want one can get them now anyway..once the ban is lifted itl be law abiding responsible people who will be able to get the breed if they choose.

Remember the little law enforcement that does go on..wrongly imo (Lennox being a prime example) is paid for by us..the tax payer. If we who believe the ban should be lifted can come together as one loud voice imho it will be heard...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think once the ban is lifted all the idiots who already have one and keep it under wraps at the mo will be parading them all over the place. I think the reason the Met police are so tough on enforcing the DDA, and lets face it many of the dogs confiscated are from London, is because they deal with the very idiots I am talking about on a daily basis. 

Having lived in East London for over 30 years I know what kind of scum you get there and i'd imagine that's it's far worse now, friends who still live there have said it's not uncommon to see chavs parading dogs (PB's) around after dark.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I have quoted all this but only want to comment on a couple of points. All dogs that are bred for a job need stimulation in the right direction to make good pets. Dalmatians are often out of control, destructive in the house and difficult to teach recall to - yet as you say they were bred to follow a carriage - and very many still do that. There are even carriage driving classes for dog and horse. My poodles follow in exactly the same with their heads under the carriage. Poodles were bred as gun dogs and need stimulation. How do you think they got the reputation of snappy, yappy dogs only suitable for old ladies - because they are bored!
> 
> And greyhounds! they frequently kill small dogs and cats. They should be on the lead and muzzled because they are bred to chase and kill and most are but it is the irresponsible owner that gives all these lovely breeds of dogs a bad name.
> 
> If you know what your dog was bred for then you can understand it and treat it appropriately and not expect every dog to behave in the same way with the same treatment.


I agree entirely with you, you've just added to my point. Many dogs now are used for their original purpose. Their jobs if you will have evolved, but no matter what dog you have, if you do not give it the right stimulation or training or handling (ala the greyhounds), it will become a danger, so why single out one breed?



sailor said:


> I agree with the pitbulls being more popular because they have this "dangerous banned" label on them, making them more desirable.
> But if it was suddenly lifted, I really do believe it would make alot of people want to rush out and get one... I can just imagine what the gumtree adverts would look like... RARE pitbulls, get them now while they are fresh off the ban list....
> 
> I dont fully agree with the BSL because it means alot of innocent dogs are dying because of it and not to mention how poorly enforced it is.
> But I just cant help but think the moment the ban was lifted, it would be a free for all and you would see a huge surge in pitbulls everywhere.


Perhaps, but also perhaps there needs to be some kind of enforcement that the RIGHT people can own these dogs?

It really is a tough one, but I do think laws should be concentrating on the morons that have the dogs, not the dogs themselves.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

the Calgary legislation seems pretty good

basics - 

dog does damage you get fined, level of fine depends on level of damage
dog is aggressive (actual attack plus significant damage/unprovoked) dog is seized (behavioural assessment - may be rehomed if deemed fit to) or euthanised - owner heavily fined
dog cannot be left unattended - not allowed to tie up outside shops and so forth - fines for owners
dog causes harm whilst owner not present - more fines

it seems pretty sensible and it is the *owners* that are punished in the vast majority of cases, not the dog.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Blitz said:


> And greyhounds! they frequently kill small dogs and cats. They should be on the lead and muzzled because they are bred to chase and kill and most are but it is the irresponsible owner that gives all these lovely breeds of dogs a bad name.
> 
> If you know what your dog was bred for then you can understand it and treat it appropriately and not expect every dog to behave in the same way with the same treatment.


I'm sorry but greyhounds do not frequently kill small dogs and cats. Plenty live with both and even more socialise happily with small dogs even if they don't live with them. Yes you do get ones that are not small dog friendly or cat workable but that does not mean all greyhounds need to be kept on lead and muzzled! If you did that you would have a lot of very frustrated and unhappy dogs who would never be able to socialise and if they ever did get off their leads would be more likely to exhibit aggression!

One of the reasons greyhounds are thought of as untrainable and bad with other breeds is that people take this sort of advice as gospel and do not try to teach their dog a recall or socialise with small breeds and so it becomes a self fufilling prophecy. That means if they ever do get off the lead they are unlikely to come back and more likely to be aggressive through fear.

The rescue that I volunteer with, the dogs who are not cat or small dog friendly are actually in the minority not the majority (and this is a welfare charity that takes the cases that are harder to rehome). Even my high prey girl has never mistaken a small dog for anything but a dog and has been taught to leave cats. The only aggression either of my dogs has ever exhibited is my boy against dogs his own size or bigger (and this is a mixture of over arousal and fear).

As for pitbulls I see no need for BSL but I would not particuarly like the dogs that we currently have being used for breeding stock to re-introduce the breed as a lot of them are of poor temperment (although a certain amount of this is encouraged aggression).


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

L/C said:


> I'm sorry but greyhounds do not frequently kill small dogs and cats.
> Plenty live with both & even more socialise happily with small dogs even if they don't live with them.
> 
> Yes, you do get ones that are not small-dog friendly or cat-workable but that does not mean all greyhounds
> ...


there have also been cases of Greyhounds who live very peaceably with *their own cat-housemates, or live with 
their own small-dog housemates - * but they aggress against the stray-cat that comes into _their_ yard & attack that cat, 
or they see small-dogs they don't know playing chase at the beach, pursue & bite them - yet live with their housemates 
with no aggro.

OR - their cat-housemate escapes the house, gets a wild-hair & races away to run up a tree... & their Greyhound-buddy 
pursues the fleeing cat, but not in a playful fashion: they are intent & way-more serious than the owner likes! :shocked:

seeing a dog or cat they know well flee, an out-of-character behavior, can trigger pursuit - even biting.

seeing stranger-dogs or stranger-cats playing roughly, with lots of yelps, squeals or hissing, etc, can do the same.

triggers _multipl__y_ - they don't *add* to a sum. 
1 + 1 = not 2 triggers & twice as hard as 1, but 2 triggers SQUARED = 4 times as hard to cope as 1.

seeing a prey-size animal is one trigger; that the animal is not familiar is a 2nd; that they RUN AWAY is a 3rd. 
that's when things can get ugly, & owners are often deeply shocked - they may never have seen it before, 
they may never see it again - it's the combination of factors that elicits the behavior.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Any dog will chase a cat, it's what dogs do - just like cats chase mice but it's okay for cats to behave naturally. If a dog chases a cat and kills it of course it's not nice but it doesn't make it any less a natural thing for it to do just because the cat happens to be a pet and the mouse considered a pest.
Both are acting on natural instinct. 

Ever heard of Tom & Jerry? And Spike for that matter!


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

There's a young guy here with a couple of huge boar-hunting Pit/Presa crosses who has trained them impeccably. They are the best conditioned dogs I have ever seen, get hours of exercise out in the country every day and have given me no problems whatsoever.:thumbup1:

On the other hand, a lot of folk have Labs or other "good" breeds that they leave barking and sh*tting in the street (one neighbour works nights and considerately leaves her Lab out to bark, howl and whine all night long right outside my window). 

I have no objection to well trained, controlled representatives of any notorious breed (I keep them myself in the form of my Dogo and Bullterrier)but, as always, it's the arseholes on the other end of the lead (if they even bother owning a lead:mad2that make my blood boil.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Mrs White said:


> There's a young guy here with a couple of huge boar-hunting Pit/Presa crosses who has trained them impeccably. They are the best conditioned dogs I have ever seen, get hours of exercise out in the country every day and have given me no problems whatsoever.:thumbup1:
> 
> On the other hand, a lot of folk have Labs or other "good" breeds that they leave barking and sh*tting in the street (one neighbour works nights and considerately leaves her Lab out to bark, howl and whine all night long right outside my window).
> 
> I have no objection to well trained, controlled representatives of any notorious breed (I keep them myself in the form of my Dogo and Bullterrier)but, as always, it's the arseholes on the other end of the lead (if they even bother owning a lead:mad2that make my blood boil.


Yes, but unfortunately the arseholes are usually attracted to certain status breeds.


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