# Kitten help mummy died last night



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

OUR LOVELEY MUMMY CAT DIED LAST NIGHT BY A TAXI DRIVER WH JUST CARED ON DRIVEING WE ARE DEVISTATED BUT WE NOW HAVE HER BABYS HERE WITH NO MUMMY AND NLY 4 DAYS OLD I AM GOING TO TRY MY BEST TO FEED THEM EXC HAVE HAD A VERY NO SLEEPING NIGHT I HAVE SOME MILK AND BOTTLE BUT WOULD LOVE TO HERE OF ANY HELPFULL TIPS TO DO THE BEST I CAN WANT TO DO THIS MY CHILDREN ARE SO UPSET


----------



## PembrokeMadhouse (May 18, 2009)

Keep the kittens warm and hand rear them. Remember they will need to be stimulated to go to the toilet too .... it is possible to be successful, but it is hard going.

I am sure someone with more experience will be along soon to offer better advice.

C x


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I hope this post acts as a warning to cats owners… don't let mother cats outside of the home….

anyway, for Davina… you need to learn to bottle feed and toilet them.

Personally I think this is better learned form watching than from explaining in the written word…

Could you take them to a vet today and get the vet to show you how??

They will also tell you how often to feed and how many milliliters, they will show you how to toilet them, and generally tell you what to look out for.

You need to weigh the kittens daily at set times each day, and note down the weights. They should be gaining around 15grams per day minimum (though more is fine).

Keep the kittens warm (but no too warm in this weather) and keep them in draught free spot.

You could phone local rescue organizations and shelters and see if there is any surrogate mums around who could take your motherless kittens on. This would be the best option by far, but will involve a lot of work on your part to find a surrogate mum, and then a lot of work on the part of the owner/foster carer of the surrogate. Generally your kittens would leave your home and go to live temporarily in the home of the surrogate cat. But it the best option. It's not just food they get from their mums (that's the easy part for us to step in and take over)… but keeping orphans clean and stink free can a nightmare if they get diarrhea, and teaching them not to bite and scratch too hard is very very tough for us humans. I know 2 hourly feeding, day and night is no joke. It is tough. But it's easy compared to the other problems you will (likely) face if you rear them yourself.


----------



## charleecat (Nov 26, 2009)

Sorry to hear that your cat died last night. Terrible that the taxi driver didn't stop, let's hope Karma deals with him very soon.

Is it worth giving the Cats Protection League a ring, just to get some practical advice? They might have more experience than us? 

Also, do you have an alarm clock that ticks? Might be worth wrapping one up in a thin towel for the kittens to snuggle up to, trick them into thinking it's their mum to get them to sleep better?

All the best to you and the kittens.


----------



## tc.catz (May 19, 2010)

How awful for you i do hope everything works out


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

I would try and find a foster mum asap. I have a nursing mum here with older kittens, not sure if that's any use.


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanku everyone just wanted some support not to be had a go at cause she went out of the gate thats the first time she been out the garden at all me and my children are upset anuff but i am doing the best i can by feeding them etc and the clock idea great thanku all i can do it try for the mummy cats sack and my children who are very upset but they are takeing the bottle fine now witch i am surprised so quickley


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Considering that you are a novice, have you gotten in touch with a vet or local rescue to get more tips or help? That is quite a commitment you are taking on and I would urge you to seek help.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

You let your mother cat go outside at all? There is NO reason for letting a mother cat leave your house when she has kittens. 

However, it's the kittens that need help now ...

A few things you need to know about feeding. 

The milk you use should only be kitten formula milk, not anything like the Whiskas kitten milk or even cows milk. They will end up very poorly very quickly if you don't use the right stuff.

NEVER feed a kitten on its back. Have you ever seen a lamb being bottle fed? Kitty needs to be on its front with it's head only slightly tilted up. Otherwise the kittens will take milk into their lungs.

Once they have been fed, gently lift their back legs and rub firmly along the back to wind them.

Toileting the kittens is also very important. I think the usual way is to use cotton wool balls dampened and wiped repetitively over their private parts to encourage then to wee and poo.

These are all really important things, that could make the difference to whether these kittens survive long enough for you seek professional help from a vet or a rescue service.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

I've hand reared and its not the best option definitely try and find a queen whose still got kittens. Definitely contact the rescues and the vets asap.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I've given you an answer on the other thread, please check it.

Please tell us where you are, someone might be able to offer practical help - show you how to do the job, or perhaps even find you a foster mother. PM me if you want a phone number for advice.

Liz


----------



## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

I think its awful to post that she should not have let the mother out after the event. 
She needs help and support not putting down.

If you let us know where you are maybe we could work out a rota so that you are not alone.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tinamary said:


> I think its awful to post that she should not have let the mother out after the event.
> She needs help and support not putting down.
> 
> If you let us know where you are maybe we could work out a rota so that you are not alone.


a lot of people read this forum... some of them may have queens with kittens... if these warnings help save one mother cat, which then in turn saves her 4 kittens ... well, in my book its worth it.

Besides the OP is being given advice on all sides. Lizward has even arranged telephone support for her.


----------



## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

Maybe they should have started another thread and just gave sympathy and understanding in this.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

tinamary said:


> If you let us know where you are maybe we could work out a rota so that you are not alone.


You want to set up a rota to provide virtual help to a person who apparently knows next to nothing about hand rearing kittens when there are vets/ rescue shelters etc out there that could provide direct help in person? 

Have you tried to explain forcefeeding to someone in writing?

The best bet for the cats is still to find a surrogate mother. Again shelters and the vet can help!


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tinamary said:


> Maybe they should have started another thread and just gave sympathy and understanding in this.


how do we (the posters) know that the people who read this thread... will aslo read the other thread??

A mother cat is dead... period. Her kittens are orphaned... that should provide a warning to all.

Tea and sympathy is all well and good... but *awareness* is what is really needed. Agian, your mileage may vary... I hope this post does act as a warning to anyone with a queen and kittens. In the same way I hope Mrs & Mrs McCann loosing their Maddie acts as a warning to those who leave their children unattended. That doesn't mean I feel no sympathy for the OP or for the McCann family, it just means tea and sympathy are pretty ???? pointless in my opinion. The OPs needs help, she is getting that. Other people (hopefully) will get a warning into the bargain. There is nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Just so it doesn't get lost - can I reiterate my offer. Molly is still producing milk and if needed is here. 

Otherwise can I 100% back the advice of finding a rescue for help - most will have nursing mums at this time of year and handrearing at that age is often not successful. Please, please, please get in touch with a rescue for help now.


----------



## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

Ive worked with animals all my life and fed more babies than ive had hot dinners. I am offering support for someone who needs to get specialist advice from a vet and has been told that. I would rather get some help for her than let her cope on her own. Whats this get a Tina day. lol

I am as worried about the kittens as much as you are and would like to see them cared for by someone with help than someone chased away from the forum by insensitiveness and left to cope on her own.


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I would try get a foster first, hand rearing is not easy at all, it can be done if you have all the right equipment but it is very very time consuming and takes 100% commitment.

You must read about it and the dangers before even attempting it just now.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Absolutely agree - the ONLY reason to handrear would be if there was absolutely no chance of a foster mum. Kittens can be got to a foster anywhere in the country with a bit of help and have a miles better chance of survival than with hand rearing.


----------



## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

KathyM said:


> Absolutely agree - the ONLY reason to handrear would be if there was absolutely no chance of a foster mum. Kittens can be got to a foster anywhere in the country with a bit of help and have a miles better chance of survival than with hand rearing.


Well said, they would do much better with a foster mum. Its a good time of year to find one.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tinamary said:


> Ive worked with animals all my life and fed more babies than ive had hot dinners.


well that makes two of us -- but what has that got do with anything?



tinamary said:


> I am offering support for someone who needs to get specialist advice from a vet and has been told that. I would rather get some help for her than let her cope on her own. Whats this get a Tina day. lol


look, you disagreed with the approach some posters took... I disagreed with your disagreeing. Is that ok? Everyone is offering support, even the people who do think the queen should never have been let out.

As for the "get" day... I am too warm to repsond to that.

You aired your views. I (and others) aired differing views. There is no "getting at"... it's a perfectly euqal playing ground.



tinamary said:


> I am as worried about the kittens as much as you are and would like to see them cared for by someone with help than someone chased away from the forum by insensitiveness and left to cope on her own.


When I make a boo-boo in life and I ask for help, as long as I get the help I will readily take the wrist slap that goes along with it, certainly if I thought that wrist-slap would stop others making the same boo boo I made.

This is a public forum... all different folks with tons of different strokes... can you just not accept that people have differing views? I won't tell you can't do the tea and symplathy bit, if you don't tell others they can't issue warnings about letting nursing queens outside.


----------



## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

Tje said:


> well that makes two of us -- but what has that got do with anything?
> 
> look, you disagreed with the approach some posters took... I disagreed with your disagreeing. Is that ok? Everyone is offering support, even the people who do think the queen should never have been let out.
> 
> ...


Not rising to any of this childishness everyone, im far too grown up.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

I think the important messages are going to get lost if there's a quotey argument folks! Shall I get out the comedy duck to cheer everyone up? :arf:


----------



## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

KathyM said:


> I think the important messages are going to get lost if there's a quotey argument folks! Shall I get out the comedy duck to cheer everyone up? :arf:


totally agree it should not have happened and was preventable but the kittens are now the urgent priority


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

KathyM said:


> I think the important messages are going to get lost if there's a quotey argument folks! Shall I get out the comedy duck to cheer everyone up? :arf:


I totally agree... the important stuff gets lost in the crossfire. I just wish the "that's not fair to post that kind of comment, she needs sympathy" hadn't started in the first place, because I feel duty bound to defend people when they get told what they posted wasn't right, when they also gave helpful tips too.

Anyway, enough already!! 

OP, have you been in touch with the person Lizward recommended??

Spoke to any vets/shelters/rescue orgs??


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The OP may well have gone to ground, this is one of the things that can happen when people start to get nasty. It may not at all be intended to be nasty but when you have someone who is raw from the loss of a loved animal and no doubt already blaming herself, things will be perceived as nasty even if they are not intended that way.

OP, if you are reading, please just post, we are all concerned about the kittens. That foster Mum would be well worth a try. Believe me, two hourly feeds might sound OK right now, it will be a very different matter in two or three days time. You WILL reach the stage, if you are doing it alone, where you will leave the kittens for a whole night simply because you will be too exhausted to get up and deal with them, and you WILL eventually reach the stage where it will be a relief if they die simply because you will get a good night's sleep. Honesty, loss of sleep does this, I have been there.

Liz


----------



## miiichelle (May 16, 2010)

What a lot of insensitive people on this forum! The poster IS asking for advice and this was her first port of call for it. Whats done is done, despite anyones best efforts cats do sometimes escape...especially when they are feeling stressed and unused to having kittens.

Why don't you just stop with the patronising and give some unblaming advice. It only took for one person to say go to the vets or cat shelter..... not for ten people to jump on her when she is missing her cat.


----------



## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

im sorry for your loss of your cat hope the kittens are ok good luck


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Sorry no advise on kittens but you've had lots of very good stuff already  Just wanted to say Im very sorry to hear about your loss & realy hope the kittens are ok x


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

miiichelle said:


> What a lot of insensitive people on this forum! The poster IS asking for advice and this was her first port of call for it. Whats done is done, despite anyones best efforts cats do sometimes escape...especially when they are feeling stressed and unused to having kittens.
> 
> Why don't you just stop with the patronising and give some unblaming advice. It only took for one person to say go to the vets or cat shelter..... not for ten people to jump on her when she is missing her cat.


Completely agree! talk about kick a person when they are down! all this does is make the OP go awol and what does that achieve for the kittkens????

some great advice has been given though I really hope u come back and check out the offers of help from peeps - good luck with the hand rearing or fostering - a terrible tragedy for mum cat im sorry for your loss hugs(()))xxxxx


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

miiichelle said:


> What a lot of insensitive people on this forum! The poster IS asking for advice and this was her first port of call for it. Whats done is done, despite anyones best efforts cats do sometimes escape...especially when they are feeling stressed and unused to having kittens.
> 
> Why don't you just stop with the patronising and give some unblaming advice. *It only took for one person to say go to the vets or cat shelter*..... not for ten people to jump on her when she is missing her cat.


Unfortunately if only one person had said that it probably would have been ignored. It's human nature ... besides would you listen to the advice of one stranger on the internet? Or would you be more likely to listen to several?

No one is being insensitive. If that were true the posts would only consist of pointing out the err of her ways. Not trying to help the poor little kittens 

With my first post in this thread I used the  smilie twice in my opening sentence. To demonstrate that I was sad for the Queen, the kittens and yes the lady and her family. I could have used angry smilies, but didn't to try and remain sensitive.

The trouble with typing out thoughts and views on an internet forum is that you can't hear or see a person to try and gage what thier intention is.

If this thread had started differently, and lots of people replied giving advice on how to raise the kittens without mention of the Queen ... then it would be a thread that would be detrimental to other queens out there. Queens with owners who, a few days after their queen has given birth types into google "how soon can I let my queen go back outside". Or other key words that will likely bring up this thread.

If those people had read the thread (had it been as suggested) saw nothing to say that the queen should not be let out early, they would likely go and do just that. They would see this poor lady losing her queen to the road as an unfortunate accident and nothing more. I'd like to think this wouldn't be the case, but those who have 'accidental' litters ad know nothing about these things may well do just that.

Anyway ... Davina, I saw you read the thread this afternoon, so hopefully that means you cut through the posts that upset you, and got to the advice. How are the kittens now, and have you managed to get them to a vet at least?


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Unfortunately if only one person had said that it probably would have been ignored. It's human nature ... besides would you listen to the advice of one stranger on the internet? Or would you be more likely to listen to several?
> 
> No one is being insensitive. If that were true the posts would only consist of pointing out the err of her ways. Not trying to help the poor little kittens
> 
> ...


and as well all that, can I just add something else I have just stated on another thread... my "purpose" first and foremost when I come to this forum is to help cats and kittens. At times this forum seems to be more about bolstering the egos and feelings of posters than about the welfare of the animal. I don't mean to sound harsh... but the last thing I think of are the feelings of the poster... paramount in my mind is the welfare of the cats who can't speak up for themselves. If people (parents) got let off scott-free when their children sailed through the windscreen of their car would legislation ever have been brought about to prevent that? I doubt it. Awareness is everything, and we all have a duty towards the animals, to make their owners aware that outside is no place for a nursing queen! There was no lynch party towards to the OP... merely a few polite lines to make others aware. It was onlly when those few polite lines were challenged by on eperson from the tea and sympathy brigade that the focus of this post moved. And that is the real tragedy. It's now all about how to post and what to post instead of being focussed on rearing orphaned kittens.


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

i ask niceley for some simple advice and i would like to say a very big thanku for everyones advice and with advice from people on hear and friends etc one who hand reared her own kittens has given me everything and showed me what to do etc thanku everyone on here who has given me good advice but i dont thank the people who have kicked me in the belly me and my children are very upset indeed so upset but i feel it my duty now as a single mum with 5 children yes 5 lol to do this for our cat she was only going out in the garden to lay in the sun for 5 mins then came back in i dont know why she went of like that but it was the road next to our house well 5 doors down i am trueley heart brocken big time and just wanted good advice and some of u have given that on a good note thow through practice and being shown the kittens have been suckiling of the bottle great today and i will try my best to carry on however tyred i get am doin it for my children and missy our beloved girl r.i.p. missy


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Davina, have you considered a surrogate mum ???

Have you been in touch with the person Lizward recommended ??


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Davina, everyone here is concerned about your kittens. This is not a ego contest or a "I know better match". We all want to see your kittens survive and thrive.

Have you been to the vets? Have you contacted a shelter to see whether they have a surrogate mum?

It is not just about feeding them, it is about cleaning them, making sure they toilet, socialising them. No disrespect, but how will you keep up a feeding routine and care for your 5 upset kids? It is a massive task to care for kittens that young - made all the harder by your lack of experience. 

Is there anyway that you can contact a shelter to see whether they can take them on or who can offer you some immediate support?


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I agree Hobbs2004

2 hourly feeds round the clock for weeks plus 5 children, plus cleaning and toileting the kittens, constipation kills kittens too. If you don't get the feeding and temperature right then they die from dehydration or cold or infection if you do not recognise the signs right away. In this weather they may overheat.

It is a lot to take on, the CP often have someone who will take on that chore, or may have foster mother for them. Even the most experienced with time on their hands will lose hand reared kittens so it is not something to be taken on lightly if you want them all to survive.


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

what othere thread


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

who was it she recomended


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Even the most experienced with time on their hands will lose hand reared kittens so it is not something to be taken on lightly if you want them all to survive.


I 100% agree. In the interests of the kittens' short term health and longer term behavioural developement, a surrogate mum would be the ideal situation. And 4 day old kittens in the middle of July, well.. it's the best time to find a match, it should be quite easy right now. I strongly do not recommend that the OP to go this alone. None of us (carers for orphaned kittens) did it alone in the beginning, we all had mentors and shleters and vets and experienced people at our beck and call 24/7... and my gawd... did I need it, and still do after 20 plus years at it.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

lizward said:


> I've given you an answer on the other thread, please check it.
> 
> Please tell us where you are, someone might be able to offer practical help - show you how to do the job, or perhaps even find you a foster mother. PM me if you want a phone number for advice.
> 
> Liz


Here is where she makes the offer Davina.

Beat you to it Mellowma - you need to learn to type faster Lol


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

look on page 2 for Lizward.


----------



## Ally-Kats (Jan 8, 2009)

So sorry,good luck with the kittens,RIP mum.


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> Here is where she makes the offer Davina.
> 
> Beat you to it Mellowma - you need to learn to type faster Lol


Oh I was typing a big long answer then decided just to shoe her the page.

I will have you know I can type 65 wpm!  HA!

(although I do get letters back to front at times - hence multiple editing on some threads)


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

Tje said:


> Davina, have you considered a surrogate mum ???
> 
> Have you been in touch with the person Lizward recommended ??


yes been intouch with her would rather have help/advice cause me and the kids dont wont to loose them as well


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

I am confused, I thought she was going to do that. 

Davina, it is nearly impossible to offer advice virtually (i.e. on an online forum) to help you raise those kittens. They need to be weighed, they need to be seen, they need to be handled. This we cannot do. So any advice we give will be on the basis of what you say. And we might forget to ask you to check things or you might forget to tell us things.

It is quite a lot of responsibility that you have taken on raising those kittens, particularly since you are also busy raising your own kids. You are also putting quite a lot of responsibility on us to help you without being able to see them etc. We cannot help you as well as a person who sees them and can handle them.

We keep saying that you should contact a shelter to help you. They might be able to find a mother for your kittens who can raise them. That is the best possible outcome for them. 

Please follow this advice and get in touch with your local cat rescue or vet.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

davina said:


> yes been intouch with her would rather have help/advice cause me and the kids dont wont to loose them as well


Oh heck 

Look, I am really sorry for your loss, I really am. But now is not the time to be selfish.

I'm sure you want the kittens to have the best possible chance right? Also I'm sure your kids will be even more devastated if you do choose to hand raise and one by one they die?  I know I would!

The best chance these kittens will have is with a foster home and a surrogate mum. You might be lucky hand rearing them yourself, but the odds are stacked against you.

Besides, I'm sure if you find someone willing, and explain the situation, you might be able to visit the kittens, and even have them back once they are old enough (13 weeks ideally). Then you can have all the fun you want with healthy kittens


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The best possible case scenario here would be a shelter that had a Mum with just a couple of young kittens and would be prepared to let this lady foster the Mum and kittens, then the cat could take on the orphans as well. That's a long shot though. 

Another really long shot but maybe worth a try - try advertising on the freeads sites such as preloved, offering to take on a mother cat with young kittens who might be in need. Even if that cat already has several kittens, keeping eight or nine or ten kittens topped up is vastly easier than looking after orphans without a foster Mum. You just might be lucky, it's exactly the right time of the year (unfortunately) for people wanting to get rid of mother cats with young litters, they get in the way of holidays .....

Liz


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

davina said:


> yes been intouch with her would rather have help/advice cause me and the kids dont wont to loose them as well


think this through Davina, please ... saying bye bye to the kittens when they go to a "_special kitten hospital for special kittens without mummies_" (thats what I always tell kids when I have the surrogate mum and the kittens are coming from a family with small kids) is tough... but I send daily pics to the other family... I even link my web cam up so they can view anytime they want... I email them every day, they can phone and visit when they want (within reason) ... but yes, it is still tough on the kids. I know that!!

What's tougher on kids are wee cold stiff dead kittens lying in their box when the kids get home from playgroup/school/get outa bed.

And the chances the kids will lose these kittens are HIGHER when they stay with you for bottle feeding than when they go to a surrogate mum. Thta's just a sad fact/statistic of orphan kittens.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

Besides all the arguing that is going on here how are you doing??

Have the kittens fed and toileted?? What are you using and how often are you feeding?? Were you able to find a queen through your vet?

If you can go through what you are doing someone might have some good tips.

There are a couple of good sites I've take this off this one: Clinical Information > Hand Rearing Kittens where you can see the full text.

WHAT ARE THE BASIC CONSIDERATIONS WHEN HAND REARING KITTENS?
There are several basic functions to be addressed when hand rearing kittens. These include the provision of a suitable clean, warm environment, a suitable feeding regimen, attention to urination and defecation (emptying of the bowels) and attention to general health. The major problems encountered when trying to hand rear kittens are chilling, dehydration and starvation (resulting in hypoglycaemia due to low blood sugar levels). These three conditions are interrelated and close observation is necessary if they are to be noticed, and if occurring, for prompt action to be taken in time. Kittens are very fragile; hence they can become ill and die very quickly.

HOW SHOULD I KEEP THE KITTENS WARM?
Warmth is a primary essential for the newborn. A kitten cannot react to cold by shivering and cannot control its own body temperature. In nature, warmth is obtained by direct body contact with the mother and conserved by the enclosed kittening bed. A newborn wet kitten loses heat very rapidly; hence it is important that they are dried quickly. Kittens can be kept warm by laying them in contact with a warm, well-covered hot water bottle and covering them with a blanket can conserve heat. Great care must be taken not to inflict contact burns by having the bottle too hot. Acceptable alternatives are veterinary heating pads and infrared lamps. The disadvantages of the lamps are that many cats dislike the open bed required for their use and they may over heat both mother and kittens, so lessen close nursing contact.

The rectal temperature of newborn kittens ranges from 95  99oF (36.1  37.2oC) in the first week, to 97  100oF (36.1  37.7oC) in the second and third weeks, and reaches normal adult levels of 100  102oF (37.7  38.9oC) by the fourth week. If the rectal temperature drops below 94oF the kitten is likely to die. It is important to warm up kittens slowly, since too rapid warming can be fatal.

The temperature in the kitten box should initially be maintained at 85  90oF (29.4  32.2 oC), but the box should be large enough for the kittens to move away from the heat if they become too hot. If the litter is large, the temperature can be reduced since by huddling together the kittens generate extra heat. The temperature can be gradually reduced to 80oF (26.7oC) by 7  10 days and to 72oF (22.2oC) by the end of the first month

DOES HUMIDITY AFFECT THE KITTENS?
When a low environmental humidity is combined with a lack of regular liquid intake the kittens are at risk of dehydration. An environmental humidity of 55  65% will prevent the kittens skin from drying out. Signs of dehydration include loss of skin elasticity and sticky mucous membranes (gums).

WHAT MAKES A GOOD NEST FOR THE KITTENS?
The easiest way to provide a clean, safe and warm nest is to take a cardboard box, line it with a synthetic fur vet bed, use either hot water bottles or a heating pad for warmth, and placing it away of drafts. Vet bed can be easily cleaned, is warm and comfortable. If this is not available terry nappies or old towels can be used. Some people use plastic plant propagators as incubators, however, care should be taken to ensure the temperature within them is adequate.

I HAVE HEARD THAT KITTENS CANNOT URINATE OR PASS MOTIONS WITHOUT ASSISTANCE, IS THIS TRUE?
It is necessary to stimulate kittens of less than two weeks old to urinate and defecate. The voiding reflex is normally initiated by the queen licking the kittens ano-genital region. The foster mother must therefore imitate this by gently massaging the kittens ano-genital area with a moist cotton wool ball. This should be done after each feed, and each kitten must pass urine and faeces at least once every day.

From two or three weeks of age the reflex should be triggered while the kitten is placed on the litter tray. Leaving a small amount of soiled litter within the tray will serve as a reminder to the kittens of where to perform.

WHAT SIGNS MIGHT INDICATE THAT THE KITTENS ARE UNWELL?
Normal kittens should eat or sleep for 90% of the time for the first 2 weeks of their lives. If they cry excessively, or fail to suckle, they are usually ill or receiving insufficient milk. Since kittens can die very quickly, they (and their mother, if still present) should be examined by a veterinary surgeon as soon as possible to ensure nothing serious is going wrong.

HOW MUCH MILK REPLACER SHOULD I BE FEEDING THE KITTENS?
When the milk supply is inadequate, supplementary feeding is recommended. Where the kittens have been orphaned or the queen is unable to feed them, they will need total replacement feeding. There are several commercial formulae available, which are designed specifically for kittens e.g. Cimicat. They should be made up and used as per instructions, but at a reduced volume if the kittens are still gaining some milk from their mother (give perhaps ½ to ? of the volume). The amount on the label is usually given as per 24 hours. The quantities should therefore be divided into a number of feeds. Kittens less than 2 weeks of age should be fed every 2  3 hours, while kittens 2  4 weeks of age can usually be fed every 4 hours. The milk should be warmed to 95  100oF (35  37.8oC) before feeding - the same temperature as the skin of the human forearm.

HOW DO I GET THE MILK INTO THE KITTENS?
Spoon feeding

This is slow and requires great practice. Each spoonful must be gently poured into the kittens mouth. The kittens head must not be elevated since newborn kittens do not have a well-developed gag reflex.

Syringe feeding

This may be considered in an emergency, but can be potentially lethal. The problem arises when the plunger sticks and then gives way suddenly, squirting a large volume of milk into the kittens mouth, risking drowning.

Dropper feeding

This is similar to spoon-feeding, but a little quicker and cleaner.

Baby bottles

These can be bought which are specially designed for kittens. The size of the hole in the nipple is crucial. If, when the bottle is turned upside down, the milk drips from the nipple, the hole is too large, and you risk drowning the kitten. If, when the bottle is turned upside down, the milk only comes out after considerable squeezing of the bottle, the hole is too small, and its use may result in the kitten becoming discouraged and refusing to nurse. The correct size hole allows the milk to drip from the nipple with minimal squeezing of the bottle. As nipples are used the holes tend to enlarge, so new ones must be introduced. Kittens tend to become fixated upon one particular nipple, so when changing from an old one to a new one, they may show reluctance to feed. As the kittens grow the size of the hole in the nipple can be gradually enlarged.

Tube feeding

This is perhaps the cleanest and most efficient method of hand feeding. However, it requires proper equipment and technical skill. It is a particularly useful technique when a kittens suck reflex is poor, or when kittens fail to suck properly. Some breeders tube feed kittens routinely, however, there are several dangers in this. Firstly, as the kittens have no control over how much they are fed, they can easily be given too much or too little. Secondly, kittens with a strong suck reflex, if deprived of nursing, may suck on each other, and this can lead to the development of large sore areas of skin.

Stomach tubes must be soft, flexible, blunt-ended and not more than 2 3 mm wide. A premature human infant feeding tube is ideal, but short, soft canine urinary catheters can also be used. The tube must be measured to the correct length (from the kittens nose to just behind the point of the elbow), and a mark made on the tube at this point. The tube should be lubricated with KY Jelly before use.
To insert the tube, the kittens mouth should be opened by gently pressing at the corners and keeping the head flexed downwards and the tube can be slid along the roof of the mouth and down the back of the kittens throat to the oesophagus. The tube is passed down until the mark on the tube is level with the nose. The other end of the tube will then be in the stomach. A syringe containing pre-warmed milk can then be attached and the milk can be delivered slowly to the stomach.
If the kittens head is kept flexed forward, it is quite difficult to miss the oesophagus and so pass the tube into the airway by mistake. Many kittens mew loudly throughout the whole procedure, and it is useful to note that they cannot do this if the tube is in the airway. However, anyone unsure of the technique should ask their veterinary surgeon to demonstrate it for them.

DO I NEED TO STERILISE ALL THE UTENSILS I USE WHEN PREPARING THE MILK FOR THE KITTENS?
Orphaned kittens are very prone to infections so they must always be kept clean, and utensils used for preparing or administering the milk must be sterile.

SHOULD KITTENS BE REGULARLY WEIGHED?
It is advisable to monitor the kittens growth rates by weighing them at least twice weekly. They should double their birth weight in the first 7  10 days, and then continue to gain weight steadily.

WHAT ARE THE SIGNS OF HYPOGLYCAEAMIA (LOW BLOOD SUGAR)?
Hypoglycaemia results from inadequate or infrequent feeding. It can cause severe depression, muscle twitching and occasionally lead to convulsions. If a kitten is showing signs of hypoglycaemia, a few drops of glucose syrup placed on the tongue can be life saving. This should be followed by feeding a small amount of glucose solution, and increasing either the amount and/or frequency of routine feeding.

WHEN SHOULD THE KITTENS BY WEANED ONTO SOLID FOOD?
Weaning should begin at 3  4 weeks of age. Initially, the kittens should be offered milk replacer diluted 1:1 with water, in a flat saucer. They can be encouraged to lap by dabbing their noses with warmed milk mixture. Once lapping is achieved it is possible to mix a little kitten food into the milk. This is continued until the kittens are taking just solid food. They can be fed either wet or dry diets, but it is best to feed only diets designed especially for kittens. Dog food and human baby food should not be fed since they are deficient in nutrients essential for cats.

WHAT DO I DO IF A KITTEN BECOMES CONSTIPATED?
Constipation is a very common problem in hand rearing kittens, due to the difficulty in stimulating defecation sufficiently frequently. Normal faeces have the consistency of toothpaste. If the faeces become very hard, making the kitten strain excessively, or if a kitten does not pass any motions for 2  3 days, small doses of liquid paraffin or Katalax should be given (0.5ml per feed for 2  3 days should be the desired effect). Severe cases require veterinary attention.

WHAT DO I DO IF A KITTEN GETS DIARRHOEA?
Diarrhoea is a serious condition. It may be caused by overfeeding, giving too concentrated a solution of milk replacer, or result from infection (usually caused by poor hygiene). Treatment must be swift, as dehydration can then develop very rapidly, followed soon afterwards by collapse and death.

Mild cases respond well to dilution of the milk 1:1 with boiled water, which should be given until the diarrhoea stops. Severe cases should be given no milk at all. Instead they should be given a 5  10% glucose solution, glucose-saline, or isotonic electrolyte solution (e.g. Lectade), all of which can be obtained from a veterinary surgeon. These solutions should be given until the diarrhoea stops; milk diluted 1:1 with water, and finally full strength milk can be resumed 12  24 hours later.

If kittens become collapsed and dehydrated they need immediate veterinary attention if they are to survive. Kittens in a collapsed state become chilled very rapidly. They will usually be given subcutaneous fluids by the veterinary surgeon.

Once they have been warmed up and given fluid therapy, they must be allowed to recover quietly. Feeding can only begin once the kitten is warm and able to suck. Stomach tubing is not helpful here, since when a kitten is cold and collapsed its intestines stop functioning, so stomach contents can be easily regurgitated, and then aspirated into the lungs.

As soon as the kitten is able to suck, it should be given isotonic glucose or Lectade solution (at 1ml per l00g body weight), given every 15 minutes until the kitten is rehydrated and can urinate when massaged. If all goes well, diluted milk can then be introduced after 24 hours, and full strength milk after that.
_________________________________________________________________

Whatever happens please take advice from your vet or contact the PDSA they will help you if you cannot find a queen but if you can then it really is the best option.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> Whatever happens please take advice from your vet or contact the PDSA they will help you if you cannot find a queen but if you can then it really is the best option.


Good advice NFP.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

What a post NFP! But do you really think the op is going to read all that and do all that? Take rectal temps etc etc etc. 

I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence though: 

Whatever happens please take advice from your vet or contact the PDSA they will help you if you cannot find a queen but if you can then it really is the best option.

There really is no other way imo.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I hope others read this & learn from it, mums should NOT go outside!

EIther find a mum near to you with only a couple of kittens or who has lost kittens, or a rescue or hand rear them, get some cimi-cat milk and bottles (never feed real milk!) every 2 odd hours and make them go to the loo by stimulting the bottom area for wees/poos, follow the gudielines for food on the cimi-cat packet. Make sure they are kept warm as they cant regulate temp for the first 3 weeks,.

It is Tiring I had to do it for 4 days and didnt now which way was up when my girl had 8, and I was only topping up and helping her out!


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I hope others read this & learn from it, mums should NOT go outside!


ohhh don't say that Taylorbabe... you'll have the tea & sympathy brigade down on you like a ton of bricks.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Ah well maybe I will, but if someone reads from it and learns its helped someone!


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Here is to hoping! :thumbup:


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> Ah well maybe I will, but if someone reads from it and learns its helped someone!


my sentiments *exactly* Taylor  
the tea & sympathy brigade think differently, lol.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I hope others read this & learn from it, mums should NOT go outside!


I'll go a step further and say the same goes for ANY unneutered cat. But the important thing now is getting these kittens to a surrogate mother. Davina you still haven't said where you are and I have Molly here with too much milk, so please think about it. Handrearing kittens of that age is not often successful.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Tje said:


> ohhh don't say that Taylorbabe... you'll have the tea & sympathy brigade down on you like a ton of bricks.


I dont think thats fair .....I fully agree that the mother cat should not have gone outside .........I am not opposed to people giving constructive critiscm but some people are very very harsh in how they word things - dont forget the poster is already in a vulnerable and upset state - I think it would be nice if people just worded things a little better rather than telling them off and lecturing - I dont agree that the poster is not important in all this after all without them the animals dont stand a chance so really we need to do all we can to ensure the OP does not feel like they cannot come back!

Anyway.........hope the kittens are feeding well and that you are coping.xx


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Just checking in to see if the OP has made any steps in finding a foster mum for these kittens? I'm afraid my offer comes with a "shelf life" as Molly will be spayed and treated to dry up her milk very soon if she is not needed to rear more - I haven't even had any acknowledgement of my offer! I am praying that the OP has done the right thing and been in touch with a rescue to find a foster mum and that's why she's gone quiet now.


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

davina said:


> i ask niceley for some simple advice and i would like to say a very big thanku for everyones advice and with advice from people on hear and friends etc *one who hand reared her own kittens has given me everything and showed me what to do etc* thanku everyone on here who has given me good advice but i dont thank the people who have kicked me in the belly me and my children are very upset indeed so upset but i feel it my duty now as a single mum with 5 children yes 5 lol to do this for our cat she was only going out in the garden to lay in the sun for 5 mins then came back in i dont know why she went of like that but it was the road next to our house well 5 doors down i am trueley heart brocken big time and just wanted good advice and some of u have given that on a good note thow through practice and being shown the kittens have been suckiling of the bottle great today and i will try my best to carry on however tyred i get am doin it for my children and missy our beloved girl r.i.p. missy


Are you guys seeing what you want to see cause you want to be all high and mighty or what???? She has got help........READ!!!! If she wants to do it herself its up to her! Get off your high horses and be supportive!


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

You seem to think handrearing is a suitable alternative for a foster mother. No it's not, it's a last resort and at their age, a one that could cost them their lives. The OP hasn't even said whether she's even bothered trying to find a foster mum - I offered her one here and she couldn't even be bothered to reply. Sod it, I'm only one person and today very frustrated with the attitude of some on this board. Not even a thanks but no thanks!

Very sorry that offering help to potentially DYING kittens is "on my high horse". Think before you type please Harry.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

HarryHamster2 said:


> Are you guys seeing what you want to see cause you want to be all high and mighty or what???? She has got help........READ!!!! If she wants to do it herself its up to her! Get off your high horses and be supportive!


I really don't think anyone here is sitting on their high horse or isn't being supportive. The best advice we can give her is to find a local rescue who will take in her kittens, find a surrogate mum or who will be there to give hands-on advice.

It is not just about feeding the kittens, Harry. That is only a tiny part of rearing kittens that young. And the op also has 5 kids of her own to look after.

I am sorry but I just don't think the kittens stand much of a chance unless a rescue or vet is being involved with a person who has no experience with this.

This is not being not supportive, it is being realistic.


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

KathyM said:


> You seem to think handrearing is a suitable alternative for a foster mother. No it's not, it's a last resort and at their age, a one that could cost them their lives. The OP hasn't even said whether she's even bothered trying to find a foster mum - I offered her one here and she couldn't even be bothered to reply. Sod it, I'm only one person and today very frustrated with the attitude of some on this board. Not even a thanks but no thanks!
> 
> Very sorry that offering help to potentially DYING kittens is "on my high horse". Think before you type please Harry.


But its not anyones place to force! The way she is writing makes me think she might not even live in the uk. I might be wrong, but there you are. A foster cat is better for the kittens, I am not saying otherwise, but its her choice.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> But its not anyones place to force! The way she is writing makes me think she might not even live in the uk. I might be wrong, but there you are. A foster cat is better for the kittens, I am not saying otherwise, but its her choice.


You're absolutely right, it's within her rights to refuse her kittens the best start in life. I am just hoping she isn't that type of person. Noone's forcing her to do anything, like you said we don't even know where she is never mind sitting round there with a hand round her throat lol! Your post was unwarranted and rude, everyone else was trying to help these kittens. I had a decent offer of a start for them and haven't even been graced with a response to it. Noone is too far away when there is the internet, I have had rescue animals come from as far away as Portsmouth and I don't even drive. So please, less of the "Get off your high horse" when someone's offering decent practical help to help these kittens live, something they most likely won't do if handreared at this age.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> A foster cat is better for the kittens, I am not saying otherwise, but its her choice


The uppermost concern should be what's right and best for those kittens. Where posters have come across as harsh it's because they understand the urgency and have tried to convey that. Hand rearing should be an absoloute last resort when there's no other choice.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

KathyM said:


> You're absolutely right, it's within her rights to refuse her kittens the best start in life. I am just hoping she isn't that type of person. Noone's forcing her to do anything, like you said we don't even know where she is never mind sitting round there with a hand round her throat lol! Your post was unwarranted and rude, everyone else was trying to help these kittens. I had a decent offer of a start for them and haven't even been graced with a response to it. Noone is too far away when there is the internet, I have had rescue animals come from as far away as Portsmouth and I don't even drive. So please, less of the "Get off your high horse" when someone's offering decent practical help to help these kittens live, something they most likely won't do if handreared at this age.


I can understand your frustration ....but like Harry says its ultimately the OP choice ..........maybe she hasnt replied yet because she has been busy sorting a foster mummy out her end?? she may have taken them to a shelter ....we dont know really because she hasnt been back - maybe we should just wait and see if she replies and updates us....at least you can rest assured that you have offered help and advice.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

HarryHamster2 said:


> But its not anyones place to force! The way she is writing makes me think she might not even live in the uk. I might be wrong, but there you are. A foster cat is better for the kittens, I am not saying otherwise, but its her choice.


Ultimately Harry, youre absolutely right, it *is* her choice. However, it will never stop me trying to get an inexperienced owner to see the possible ramifications of their decisions. If I was Davinas next door neighbour (and noticed the queen outdoors) I woulda been round there like a shot telling her why any outdoor time is bad for a queen same regards the choice of hand-rearing versus shipping the kits to a surrogate, yes of course its her choice but I feel a moral responsibility to make the OP aware of the risks and mortality rate of the two methods. I know many will call me (and do call me, lol) an interfering old busybody but I will chose that title every day as opposed to someone who just looks on and tuts and thinks oh well, her cats, her choice.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

KathyM said:


> I had a decent offer of a start for them and haven't even been graced with a response to it.


Kathy , I have witnessed a alot of that on the PF of late, and it is not nice at all. How much time does a quick thanks take! I have a friend who recently wrote three detailed PMs to a poster in need of help and said poster didn't even say as much as one word of thanks. I was mortified, it's so rude.

And yeahhhh, before anyone reminds me, hand rearing kittens is time intensive, I know that only too well... but if I have time to ask for help, I also have time for a polite "thanks, but no thanks".


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

KathyM said:


> You're absolutely right, it's within her rights to refuse her kittens the best start in life. I am just hoping she isn't that type of person. Noone's forcing her to do anything, like you said we don't even know where she is never mind sitting round there with a hand round her throat lol! Your post was unwarranted and rude, everyone else was trying to help these kittens. I had a decent offer of a start for them and haven't even been graced with a response to it. Noone is too far away when there is the internet, I have had rescue animals come from as far away as Portsmouth and I don't even drive. So please, less of the "Get off your high horse" when someone's offering decent practical help to help these kittens live, something they most likely won't do if handreared at this age.


The posts that were unwarrented and rude were the people who felt they had to have a go because she let her cat out, do you not think that losing her pet was enough or did you guys have to dig it in some more?? It was done there was no need for that, but people seem to think that they have the right to be rude, they dont. Its not what people come on here for. They come on for help not to be judged! THAT is why I said get off your high horses. Not everyone is as perfect and knows it all as you guys do. Mistakes happen. Now the one thing thats important is the kittens. So stick to that and all will be well and we wont scare off yet another person who really needs help.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I can understand your frustration ....but like Harry says its ultimately the OP choice ..........maybe she hasnt replied yet because she has been busy sorting a foster mummy out her end?? she may have taken them to a shelter ....we dont know really because she hasnt been back - maybe we should just wait and see if she replies and updates us....at least you can rest assured that you have offered help and advice.


I completely agree with your whole post and if the OP hadn't been on and replied to others in the meantime I would agree that she might be too busy to respond.

I feel disappointed in myself that my frustration has come out this morning, but I am currently in a fair bit of pain (too long a story) while my meds kick in and have had a night worrying about someone else's kittens making my night's sleep even worse lol. I believe from the start my offer has been open and repeated, and I was brought up with manners, many of which are failing me this morning when others don't use theirs!


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

HarryHamster2 said:


> The posts that were unwarrented and rude were the people who felt they had to have a go because she let her cat out, do you not think that losing her pet was enough or did you guys have to dig it in some more?? It was done there was no need for that, but people seem to think that they have the right to be rude, they dont. Its not what people come on here for. They come on for help not to be judged! THAT is why I said get off your high horses. Not everyone is as perfect and knows it all as you guys do. Mistakes happen. Now the one thing thats important is the kittens. So stick to that and all will be well and we wont scare off yet another person who really needs help.


Harry, I really think you need to go away and calm down and rethink what you're saying. You quote my post accusing me of having a go about letting her cat out, I have done no such thing. All I've done is offer her kittens a chance! Please stop harassing me with your rude replies, I am truly not in the mood for it.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> The uppermost concern should be what's right and best for those kittens. Where posters have come across as harsh it's because they understand the urgency and have tried to convey that. *Hand rearing should be an absoloute last resort when there's no other choice*.


never a truer word spoken!!


----------



## SYBIL (Jul 12, 2010)

KathyM said:


> Harry, I really think you need to go away and calm down and rethink what you're saying. You quote my post accusing me of having a go about letting her cat out, I have done no such thing. All I've done is offer her kittens a chance! Please stop harassing me with your rude replies, I am truly not in the mood for it.


it seems that alot of people need to think about what they are saying before poasting on thease forams. when it comes to pregnant cats and kittens there is alot of heart felt posts. i think everyone needs to put the kettle on and take a deep breath.

in response to the in need kittens i think that a quick phone call to the vet for some professional advise. they will be able to give you all of the options that are there to help.


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

KathyM said:


> Harry, I really think you need to go away and calm down and rethink what you're saying. You quote my post accusing me of having a go about letting her cat out, I have done no such thing. All I've done is offer her kittens a chance! Please stop harassing me with your rude replies, I am truly not in the mood for it.


I didnt accuse you, you are calling me rude so wanted to tell you why I wrote it. I am also not harrasing you I am replying to your posts calling me rude.  Dont call me rude if you dont want a reply.


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

*Sigh*

I'm coming away from this thread as I really don't need this abuse for offering help. If the OP or someone else in the know could please PM me to let me know if my offer is needed and whether the OP has found a foster mum, I would much appreciate it.

I am really disappointed that someone offering unbiased practical help that could save the kittens' lives would get this response from someone who isn't even offering anything of use to the OP, just abuse to others.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

KathyM said:


> I completely agree with your whole post and if the OP hadn't been on and replied to others in the meantime I would agree that she might be too busy to respond.
> 
> I feel disappointed in myself that my frustration has come out this morning, but I am currently in a fair bit of pain (too long a story) while my meds kick in and have had a night worrying about someone else's kittens making my night's sleep even worse lol. I believe from the start my offer has been open and repeated, and I was brought up with manners, many of which are failing me this morning when others don't use theirs!


Dont be disappointed in yourself and im sorry u are in pain - you did a wonderful thing in offering your services not everyone would have done that  its just unfortunate that some posters had to keep going on about her letting mum out in the first place which even though correct is not really helping the situation.....you offered alternatives  lets hope she comes back and updates us and she may reply to your offers too  xx


----------



## carebear (Jun 10, 2009)

i dont have much experience with cats but i think i would phone around to see if you can find someone who has kittens, hopefully another mother cat will take them on for you, feeding them yourself if going to be a very hard job when you have children to look after or a job to tane. 
let us know how you get on. 
and im very sorry for your loss. :sad:


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi again. Davina one of the other PF members messaged me privately to ask if I would warn you about the difficulties you face, going by her present experience...



> At the moment handraising a litter due to complications with my queen, this girl/lady needs to know she cannot do it. I am lucky my OH is here so I can flop to sleep whenever but boy when the alarm goes off every 2 hours I DONT feel like getting up, I only do as if I didn't I wouldn't be able to live with myself.
> 
> Week 1 over and all 5 still alive. It's very hard work.
> 
> ...


It's nothing but concern. It also suggests a very sad side of the way things have developed here if people are too scared to post things like this themselves 

I know you've already heard it over and over in this thread, but please understand and do the best for your girls babies 

How are they today, and did you manage to get them to a vet and/or rescue centre or foster home with a surrogate? If you need any help at all organising this, I'm happy to try and help as I'm sure many other ladies on this thread are. I might not have all the contacts to make this happen for you, but I will do my damnedest to help if you should accept.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

adding to the post above (I think it was Aurelia's post) about the practicalities of handrearing kittens...

when I am bottle feeding the really young ones I have to rely on friends and neighbours t0 do shopping for me, and often cooking too... going to supermarket entails showering and getting dressed... (I often don't have the time for either) so by the time I get showered, dressed and run aorund the supermarket, my two hours between feeds are gone. I can't even dream about making a stop at the garage to fill up the car. And the feeding is I SWEAR TO YOU DAVINA the easy bit... try keeping them clean and stink free, especially when they get the runs. The feeding is the least of your worries. REALLY! 


(and I have no kids, only 2 cats of my own, a husband who can bottle feed kittens too and look after my home, the washing, the garden, the bins etc etc - I could not do this without my husband and his total commitment, let alone with 5 kids) 

and I have been doing this hand rearing lark for more than half of my life now, so it's not as though I haven't quite got the routine down to pat. 

Think this through, please.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> What a post NFP! But do you really think the op is going to read all that and do all that? Take rectal temps etc etc etc.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence though:
> 
> ...


I posted the most important information from a link that I found covered pretty much all the basics of hand rearing and saved me typing it out myself. The idea being that she could use the capitals to pick and choose which sections she wants to read and can dip into it rather than read the whole thing. It might also help someone else if they are typing into the search bar.

Given that if the kittens lost their mum a few nights ago now if they have not eaten or toiletted they would have passed away and as little practical hands on advice had been I felt it better to post something like this.

Sadly no matter how good the advice you can't force people to do what you feel is the right thing and if Davina does choose to try hand rearing then at best all any of us can do is support her decision even if it is not one we would choose to do ourselves.


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

I did not c that post sorry but to let everyone know i am a single mum with 5 children and i am hand rearing the kittens and they doing well all i can do is my best and that is what i intend to do in my eyes everyday is a bonos i stopped comeing on here cause of all the people being horrible there have only been a few of u who have been surportive to me but all so far so good with the kittens we miss there mummy terribley and its hard but my friend sent me the nicest message saying she is sure our cat daisey is looking over me and thinking the kittens could not have a better step mum and that made me cry so much x it was the nicest thing to say so maybe people should learn from that cause when people ask for advice give it them dont kick them right in the belly like some of u have done to me


----------



## PembrokeMadhouse (May 18, 2009)

So pleased to see you back again.... great that the kittens are doing well. Perhaps you should start another thread updating us on their progress.

And yes we know that mum is looking down on you watching you care for her babies ... she knew you would do your best and you are. Keep going. 

Clare x


----------



## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Just read your thread and looks like you have had a very hard time.
Loosing your cat is devastating and my heart goes out to you.
So glad that the kittens are doing well. You must be very busy looking after all the kiddies and kitties
I hope they all survive and live long and healthy lives.
Have they got any names?
Maybe send us some pictures of them, i'm sure it's not just me that wants to see them on here.
Good Luck x


----------



## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

davina said:


> I did not c that post sorry but to let everyone know i am a single mum with 5 children and i am hand rearing the kittens and they doing well all i can do is my best and that is what i intend to do in my eyes everyday is a bonos i stopped comeing on here cause of all the people being horrible there have only been a few of u who have been surportive to me but all so far so good with the kittens we miss there mummy terribley and its hard but my friend sent me the nicest message saying she is sure our cat daisey is looking over me and thinking the kittens could not have a better step mum and that made me cry so much x it was the nicest thing to say so maybe people should learn from that cause when people ask for advice give it them dont kick them right in the belly like some of u have done to me


I sent you a PM too? If you've found another foster cat that is fantastic news and I wish you the best of luck - of course they won't need it as much now if they're nursing off a cat! :thumbup: If I have misread this post and you haven't got them a foster mum yet please accept the help you've been offered. Unfortunately my offer does have a time limit as Molly needs to stop nursing the kittens she already has, I've held off getting it sorted in case she was needed for more orphans (she's already raised one).


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

davina said:


> I did not c that post sorry but to let everyone know i am a single mum with 5 children and i am hand rearing the kittens and they doing well all i can do is my best and that is what i intend to do in my eyes everyday is a bonos i stopped comeing on here cause of all the people being horrible there have only been a few of u who have been surportive to me but all so far so good with the kittens we miss there mummy terribley and its hard but my friend sent me the nicest message saying she is sure our cat daisey is looking over me and thinking the kittens could not have a better step mum and that made me cry so much x it was the nicest thing to say so maybe people should learn from that cause when people ask for advice give it them dont kick them right in the belly like some of u have done to me


Glad the kitties are doing well .....we are here if u need support and dont forget some kitty pics  (when u get time) I think most people have just had the kittens best interests at heart and get a bit passionate but its all meant with good intentions - so do hope you dont leave the forum.....xxxx


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

how do u put a pick on please


----------



## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

davina said:


> how do u put a pick on please


http://www.petforums.co.uk/forum-help-suggestions/9370-attaching-photos-posts.htmlHope this helps.


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

This is them when born


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Awwwwwwwwww how are they doing now


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

How is your exhaustion factor now? 

Liz


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

yer they all seem to be doing fine it be a week tommrow night that i been feeding them already gone fast it has so think it be a sad night and a happy night if u get me 1 already had its eyes open and another one has its eyes open half way bless them now when i put my hand in box to get one they all go mad lol and purr when i feed them etc and have started meowing when they are due etc xxxx


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Awwwwwwwww sounds like your doing very well keep up the good work


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Give them a couple of weeks and it will be quite hilarious (to onlookers rather than to yourself!) and well worth videoing if you have any energy left at all. At that stage, they start beating each other up to get to the milk first, climbing you, launching themselves on you, and so on. It sounds as if you are doing a very good job. 

Liz


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Awww they are so cute  welldone you for persevering you are doing a great job :thumbup:xx


----------



## rhian d (Jan 26, 2010)

awwwwwww the kittens are lovely. You are doing a really good job dont stop now. :thumbup:


----------



## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

It's a shame a foster mum couldn't have been used, as while I think you're very brave to hand rear them and am glad they're doing ok, their mum does more for them than just feed them and clean their bums. They learn from their mums, and all the best will in the world - a human cant teach them how to be a cat.

I've not experienced fostering a litter before, can anyone say whether it's too late to look for a foster mum now, or whether they'd accept the teat again after being bottle fed?


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Probably best where they are. She seems to be doing fine.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

davina said:


> yer they all seem to be doing fine it be a week tommrow night that i been feeding them already gone fast it has so think it be a sad night and a happy night if u get me 1 already had its eyes open and another one has its eyes open half way bless them now when i put my hand in box to get one they all go mad lol and purr when i feed them etc and have started meowing when they are due etc xxxx


did you also post on gumtree that you needed help cuz iv seen an add on there too with orphaned kittens

wiskas website gives good info on kitten development ( with what they should be doing at each stage ) this will help you to teach them how to eat n play etc

i hope your ok and wish you all the luck in the world


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

thanku so much for being so positive and surportive if only everyone had been that much in the first place i am in good contact with my vet and have talked about the playing thing i have to phone them when kittens are 3 weeks to talk about weaning etc and u are right they are better with me for defo my friend has a mummy cat who very loveing and i have taken them there twice for a bit of cat loveing and a good clean bless them and she likes doing it a week today i have been doing this on my own my 2 older daughters have been helping me the kittens love the bottle lol and are takeing more milk as well now


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

hi just a question how long do i hve to wee them etc they seem to do it them selves have to change bedding cause it wet sometimes lol wish they did kittens nappies lol


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Until 3/4 weeks, then you can attempt a bit more solid food which will then be messed with Poo and wee! 

Yes you have to change to bedding daily, sometimes more, keep that washing machine on!!! lol


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

davina said:


> hi just a question how long do i hve to wee them etc they seem to do it them selves have to change bedding cause it wet sometimes lol wish they did kittens nappies lol


I change the bedding every time I feed them - if you don't, not only are they lying in their own mess, they stink. Like I said earlier, keeping orphanned kittens clean and stink-free is tougher IMO than bottle-feeding them 10-12 times a day. As the time between feeds increases as they get older, your work load (also regards washing) decreases, well kinda... they do produce more waste though so it's swings and roundabouts.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

davina how are you doing did they survive ?? yove not updated for ages wondering how your getting on


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

lol been busy as u can imagene just wanted to say to the lady who said a humen cant teach the kittens to be a cat well my 5 other cats can and yes thanku they all fine they 3 and a half weeks old now have had one visit to the vets with the funt of the litter his name is loop named by my son lol he got little bit of milk in his lungs but is alot better now will be starting to ween them next week a bit they are very active now and the vet weighed them all and said to me they are the right weight for there age so i must be doing something right have added some pictures for u but as u will c very hard when they all going differant ways lol


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

They're looking well fed. I bet you're looking forward to them eating solids!

Liz


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Hadn't seen this thread before and I am sorry for the loss of your 'Mummy' cat.
Just want to say what a fabulous job you have done. Those kittens look the picture of health and no different to any other litter of little trouble makers  Very well done :thumbup::thumbup: and best of luck with weaning them too - should make your life a little easier


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww they look great :thumbup:


----------



## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

Well done! It must be very hard work hand rearing them but it looks like you have done a fantastic job.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for the update hun 

youve done an amazing job they look like little tanks hahaha


aww soo pleased they all survived


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

davina said:


> lol been busy as u can imagene just wanted to say to the lady who said a humen cant teach the kittens to be a cat well my 5 other cats can and yes thanku they all fine they 3 and a half weeks old now have had one visit to the vets with the funt of the litter his name is loop named by my son lol he got little bit of milk in his lungs but is alot better now will be starting to ween them next week a bit they are very active now and the vet weighed them all and said to me they are the right weight for there age so i must be doing something right have added some pictures for u but as u will c very hard when they all going differant ways lol


Davina, I am pleased to hear that your kittens are doing and well and are seemingly thriving.

I would like to point out though, in defence of all of us who were sceptical, that you neglected to tell us that you also had 5 other cats who could be roped in to do some socialisation duties. Any of us on a forum can ever only go on info that is given to us - so if you leave out pertinent information like that, then don't get into a huff when people don't take it into account.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> I would like to point out though, in defence of all of us who were sceptical, that you neglected to tell us that you also had 5 other cats who could be roped in to do some socialisation duties. Any of us on a forum can ever only go on info that is given to us - so if you leave out pertinent information like that, then don't get into a huff when people don't take it into account.


couldn't agree more Hobbs! As everyone on this forum must know by now, lol... I have stated *so* many times that I simply could not foster (or socialize and train) orphanned kittens if it wasnt for the fact that my own 2 cats help (especially the older one) by playing night-club-bouncer with the orphanned kittens and knocking them in to shape when the need arises. But if we don't even know about the presence of 5 (FIVE!!!) other cats, then it's *impossible* for us to say those cats could be used as surrogate kitten socializers/trainers.

Davina, if you had told us *all* the information, we'd happiily have told you that. So "yes thank you very much too" but next time you ask for help it might be worth telling the whole story. None of us are mind readers.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

p.s Davina, do you need any advice or help or tips on the importance of neutering? Do you have any other pregnant/lactating queens that we could possibly help with by explaining the need to keep mother cats indoors? Do you need any help with tips on rehoming the kittens in a responsible manner or when you need to worm them, de flea them, chip them or vacc them? Do you need any help with nutritin tips for weaning kittens. Do you need anyhelp with when the best age or weight for them to be rehomed?


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

after all this u still knock me down we still missing the mummy cat and lots of cats go out when hey had babys even my vet said they dont have to be kept in i have become very attached they like my children lol but they get lots of cuddles of my kids 2 of them have hopes to close friends but 2 we are keeping thanks for advice about worming and rehomeing etc think it going to be messy time when i start weening lol am phoneing the nurse at vets for all that informashion cause am starting monday will be glad of a weeks holiday with my kids in 2 weeks by then they be getting in so much mischive lol but if anyone has some tips on weening and litter training would be great am sure when my cats about they will show what a cat is ment to be lol but they are so cute and loveing they all sit there and look at me and when i let them all have a little walk on the rug they stiff around looking for me then start purring when they have got to me and meow lots when i go out the room especally when it feeding time the vet has said they are the right weight for there age am glad and u are right they are little tanks so greedy lol


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

davina said:


> after all this u still knock me down we still missing the mummy cat and lots of cats go out when hey had babys even my vet said they dont have to be kept in


How silly of me to think since you had lost one mother cat with 4 day old kittens to a road death you would be more open to hearing why keeping your next mother cat indoors is in her own best interests. Obviously not. So when your next unneutered female gets pregnant and gives birth, it will be going out too. You say you love your cats, but youre not willing to take simple steps to protect their lives. Fine, your cat, your choice, and its not me who has to shovel their guts off the road and hose the loose bits down the drain.


----------



## eyesie (Aug 1, 2010)

davina said:


> OUR LOVELEY MUMMY CAT DIED LAST NIGHT BY A TAXI DRIVER WH JUST CARED ON DRIVEING WE ARE DEVISTATED BUT WE NOW HAVE HER BABYS HERE WITH NO MUMMY AND NLY 4 DAYS OLD I AM GOING TO TRY MY BEST TO FEED THEM EXC HAVE HAD A VERY NO SLEEPING NIGHT I HAVE SOME MILK AND BOTTLE BUT WOULD LOVE TO HERE OF ANY HELPFULL TIPS TO DO THE BEST I CAN WANT TO DO THIS MY CHILDREN ARE SO UPSET


I am so sorry for your loss it makes me so angry that some people have total disregarde for the life of animals. My neighbour found a tiny little pink squirrel in her garden we didn't even know what it was it was so tiny I discovered tiddlywinks site and got information on how to hand rear them I spent the next two or three weeks feeding it every two hrs with a dropper bottle you know like the medicine application with a rubber squeezy top it wouldnt take to a bottle and using a Q-tip to stimulate after feeding it to go to the toilets he grew up a healthy little boy whom I managed to put back into the wild having a large Oak tree in the middle of my small garden was a help but I loved that little boy and got great satisfaction from rearing a healthy little squirrel, its going to be very hard for you for a while hope you have someone to help you as you have more than one to rear, you will be suprised how quick they grow and get stronger. I think that just the fact that the driver had no respect for the life of your beautiful lady,will give you the will and strength to ensure that her babies will survive, I hope you find some solice in what I have written and maybe some help. Eyesie.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

eyesie said:


> I think that just the fact that the driver had no respect for the life of your beautiful lady


it was a cat the taxi-driver hit and killed, not a deer or an elk, just a small cat wieghing aorund 4 kilos... the chances are quite high that the driver didn't even notice he'd hit the cat at all.

Talking of respect for life though, the vast majority of ethical breeders keep their lactating queens inside because they know this is a very dangerous period in a mother cats life, and they respect their life enough to protect them by keeping them in.

I am not saying the taxi driver was blameless, none of us were there to witness it, but it is highly possible he was blameless, or maybe he was just callous and cold hearted. None of can say for sure.

But of what of the breeder who lets her mother cat wth 4 day old kittens wander freely outside.... how much respect for life does she have? 5 lives, not just one are dependant on that decision.

Ultimately, as owners we are the ones with the highest duty of responsibilty towards our pets -- not random road users.


----------



## eyesie (Aug 1, 2010)

I am absolutely sure that just the fact that this has happened to the poor mum, babies, and owner is in itself a massive warning to others to be extra vigilante to make sure their animals dont slip out the door, it is so easy when they so want to get out the house, it is very hard to ensure an animal with its own independance from doing just that, I am not absolutely pointing the finger at the cab driver as we were not there to witness what happened, I am sure that the owner of mummy cannot be telling herself over and over again (IF ONLY). In actual fact myself and my grandson nearly got run over when a cab driver came speeding around a corner yesterday, there was no sign of a car as we began to cross at the unmarked pedestrian crossing, that had no traffic lights and she just shouted abuse at us, like we were just wandering in the road regardless of the traffic.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

eyesie said:


> I am absolutely sure that just the fact that this has happened to the poor mum, babies, and owner is in itself a massive warning to others to be extra vigilante to make sure their animals dont slip out the door, .


Nope, I think if you scroll just a few posts higher up you will see the owner telling us that there is nothing wrong with letting lactating mother cats outside and even telling us her vet agreed with this. She doesn't show as much as an ounce of remorse or tone in any way that she was to blame for the cats death or that she will act differently in the future. Yesterday I offered the original poster if she wanted help and tips on why this period of a mothers cat life was extra important for her to be kept indoors so if she future mother cats she could keep those cats safe, and her retort was that "she felt knocked".



eyesie said:


> it is so easy when they so want to get out the house, it is very hard to ensure an animal with its own independance from doing just that,


we will have to agree to disagree on this one, it's not hard at all to keep a cat inside. If I can manage it 20+ years long with stray mother cats who don't even know or trust me or know or trust my home, then any owner can manage it with their own cats in their own trusted environment. Good breeders do it daily. It really isn't hard at all.


----------



## CanIgoHome (Oct 25, 2008)

so sad about mummy cat but I think you have done a wonderful job with the kittens :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## eyesie (Aug 1, 2010)

Oh beleave me I know how guilty one can feel when you have had a false confindence that your animal would be safe on the outside, its such a shame that they are not safe, I had two kittens of nine months, staying at my daughters address in Devon they had never been allowed to go out at my address in southampton, they had been at my daughters for five weeks and on one particular day I thought they would be safe running around her house as it is surrounded by a big 20ft wall with two large gates on the back and side garden but within three hours they were gone, I have been searching for them since the 13th of May and cant give up on them the last thing I done while looking for them over a nature reserve(although I think that maybe they ecaped under a small gap under the gate into the side garden that backs onto a large car park and somebody took them, but obviousley there is no way of knowing) I bumped into a lady a couple of weeks ago that edits the theteignmothian.com online magazine you will see them on there under missing cats. but getting back to the guilt I will never forgive myself for letting them out but there is nothing more I can do now, I have exhausted all outlets beleave me, I have almost convinced myself that I will never see them again, but it doesn't stop me from travelling down to Devon every week and walking like a nomad all over Teignmouth, which in a while I will be doing that same thing for 2-3 hrs, I had a phone call on Saurday from a flat that has been up for sale for about two months or so that a black and white cat was under the kitchen units not moving, on my travels I have got to know quite a few people in this area that has lost there own cats as well, and had spoken with a woman who's daughter had lost a cat 3 weeks ago. this lady in the flat had pulled the boards out of the lower part of the kitchen units to find the cat there (she had seen the cat poo and a broken vase in the window, so knew something was wrong, anyway even although this was in the back of my mind when I ran with my box hyperventating and shaking from head to toe because I might have to face it being one of my kittens, that I was going have to pull out from under that unit probably dead, I got there in a a pretty bad state she told me to where rubber glove's just in case that made it even worse in my imagination, when I got there I laid on the floor put my arm under the unit and felt the cat, it was hunched tight in a corner against the wall stiff I managed to get the scruff of its neck it wasn't moving or protesting and I dragged it out, the first thing I see was the coller and knew instantly it was the cat that the woman had spoken to as she had said it had a illumnous yellow coller on, I got it in the box and really thanked the woman and told her it belonged to a lady in the alley just at the end of the two houses next to her, I took it and knocked the door as soon as I got inside the cat seemed to brighten up but it was painfully thin and started to eat the food she put down I did advise her not to feed it too much and really that she should get it checked out at the vets as I hadn't a clue how you go about future care of an animal that had been starved for 3 weeks, wether she did or not is another thing. I was very happy that I saved that cat with the help of that phone call, but even though we may have doubts about how good a person is caring about there animals, you cant impose your values on to them, mistakes happen and we have to live and learn from them no-one know's that more than me now, I miss my two kittens just as much now as I did on the day I lost them, and blame myself continually for being so gullable and stupid and I expect that some see them and thought they are just not being cared for enough and I wouldn't blame them if they saw them in a car park on there own:Eyesie.


----------



## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

Sory to hear about your kittens eyesie, but well done for rescuing the lost cat. 

You are right about not overdoing the feeding on an animal that has been starved for so long, they can get "Refeeding Syndrome", a condition where the electrolytes (salts) can become deranged with fatal consequences, so getting the advice of a vet is most important.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Eyesie, please don't get this the wrong way but could you start putting some paragraphs in your posts please. I am an essay writer like you, but being faced with a text like yours is a daunting task 

To Davina, I think you should start reading the posts instead of just presuming that we are having a go. Actually, I was just pointing out that having known about your other cats might have been some valuable information to have when discussing the rearing of your young kittens. That is not having a go, as you say, but hopefully helpful to you in the future to get more reliable responses.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

eyesie said:


> but even though we may have doubts about how good a person is caring about there animals, you cant impose your values on to them, mistakes happen and we have to live and learn from them


yes mistakes do happen... but with some people they happen more often than with others

and generally good people learn from mistakes, show remorse over the death of a cat that should have been totally avoidable.

that wasn't the case in this post.

The OP has learned nothing and will change nothing.

There was nothing wrong with her cat being outside, it wasn't her fault that it got killed, and she will not do anything differently next time as she has told us that even her vet agrees a mother cat is fine going outside

so you are right in as far as I can never impose my values on the OP.... but I can stand up and be counted and tell her I think her actions are completely wrong. Staying shut up and just accepting wrong behaviour is a form of condoning... and I will never do that!


----------



## eyesie (Aug 1, 2010)

Thats what my instints told me but I had a distinct feeling that she was not going to get advise, the cat belonged to her pregnant daughter, that she had mentioned didn't seem that worried about the missing cat, but she is a really animal caring person so hopefully she influenced her to have the cat checked out.


----------



## eyesie (Aug 1, 2010)

I am sorry but I am a ex-graduate from the year 2007 but with learning difficulties, so even although I passed my degree it is still difficult for me to do literacy with the expertese of some other people.


----------



## Staysee (Oct 19, 2009)

Shouldnt we be congratulating her on raising these kittens, after all the stuff people bombarded her with at first

She has done it and the kittens are fine, right now, thats all that matters


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Staysee said:


> Shouldnt we be congratulating her on raising these kittens, after all the stuff people bombarded her with at first
> 
> She has done it and the kittens are fine, right now, thats all that matters


Congratulating her Stacey??? What for???

-she had a an unneutered adult female cat that was allowed outdoors (nothing there warrants congratulations)
-said unneutered female got pregnant (nothing there warrants congratulations)
-said cat has 4 kittens (oh congratulations! Ill break open the champers)
-4 days later that cat gets run over because the owner let it out (nothing there warrants congratulations)

-owner is repeatedly advised to look for a surrogate mum for the kittens and was even offered one or two possible surrogates here on the forum, she refuses all help and offers given (nothing there warrants congratulations)

a few weeks later the kittens are still alive

well as someone who has hand reared countless orphan kittens I can assure when they all live it as much down to good luck as it is to hard work or knowledge  I can (and do) work like a Trojan to save orphaned kittens, I am powerless when a virus just wipes them out. The responsible thing to have done for the kittens was to try as hard as possible to look for a surrogate mum. (better still the mum cat should have been neutered so it couldnt have got pregnant  but when pregnancy and birth were a fact the cat should have never been allowed outdoors)

And just because theyre all alive today it doesnt mean they will be tomorrow.

You might see cause for congratulations Staysee, I certainly dont.

So excuse me while I piss on the happy parade, this post from beginning to end, is a perfect example of poor animal welfare and I will choke on my own shoes before I ever even consider congratulating that!


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Couldn't agree more with you Tje.

No Congratulations are appropriate here.

To congratulate would breed complacency. The whole situation has been dealt with in a selfish irresponsible way.

Like Tje says, it is mainly luck that has kept these kittens alive so far. Yes OP may be feeding them and toileting them ... and now admits she has 5 other cats that help. But seriously, they are so many things that can go wrong with hand rearing, even if you know what you're doing ... Ugh, Congratulate? No frickin way.

I hope anyone that comes across this thread through web searching or what ever means realises at least this much. I hope they don't get the silly idea that it is OK to risk a tiny little defenseless life simply because they are selfish and don't want to let the kittens go.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I am not saying the taxi driver was blameless, none of us were there to witness it


Well I doubt he deliberately ran the car at it. Your point that he probably didn't even know he'd hit it is absoloutely valid and there is an even more important issue. If any driver swerves to avoid an animal and causes an accident involving other vehicles or pedestrians they're likely to end up losing their licence or even in prison. The safety and lives of human beings comes higher up the list and much as I love my cats over many people even I agree that's how the law should be.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

Tje said:


> So excuse me while I piss on the happy parade,


that made me laugh


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

O come on. Hand rearing those kittens would have involved the OP in feeding every two hours day and night at first, whilst looking after five children under 10. The lack of sleep would have been severe and she did not even have the mother cat to clean and toilet the kittens. Whatever you think of the circumstances that led to the mother cat being killed (like it or not, letting cats out IS the norm in the UK), she has raised them without letting their growth get stunted through making them miss feeds, which would have been an entirely understandable thing to do in view of the exhaustion she must have felt.

I can certainly understand the reluctance to part with a longed for litter of kittens, with five crying children begging for them to stay. I think she has done a very good job. She was in with a very good chance from the start, because the kittens were already four days old and had received their colostrum, now she is reaping the emotional rewards, though the journey isn't over yet, and I think she can be congratulated.

I somehow doubt if she will be allowing this to happen again in a hurry, let's be supportive now!

Liz


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm not sure at all what to make of this post?

In this thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/111376-kitten-help-mummy-died-last-night-4.html#post1693336 you said that your deceased cat's name was Missy, yet in this thread you say her name was Daisy? http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/111376-kitten-help-mummy-died-last-night-9.html#post1697290
In this thread you say you have a one year old Staffie that killed one of your baby rabbits? http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/111241-what-would-you-do-have-done-2.html#post1691957 and make a comment that kittens need to get big enough to give your dog a swipe?

Considering this, and the fact that numerous times in this thread "new members" registered to flame the debate, it makes me rather dubious of the reason for this thread's existence. A single mum with 5 kids, an out of control staffie, breeding rabbits, numerous cats, a litter of kittens who she is successfully hand rearing?

Sorry...it's just my gut feeling, but something seems out of place here.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

PMSL - that is sterling detective work Classixuk 

So many things haven't gelled in this story - the handrearing one while having five kids etc being one, the new info about more cats living in the household being another imo, so thanks for pointing out all those inconsistencies.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> O come on. Hand rearing those kittens would have involved the OP in feeding every two hours day and night at first, whilst looking after five children under 10. The lack of sleep would have been severe and she did not even have the mother cat to clean and toilet the kittens. Whatever you think of the circumstances that led to the mother cat being killed (like it or not, letting cats out IS the norm in the UK), she has raised them without letting their growth get stunted through making them miss feeds, which would have been an entirely understandable thing to do in view of the exhaustion she must have felt.


Which is exactly why when she was offered a surrogate she should have taken it (if not jumoed at it!) -- *if *the kittens were her first priority. Sure its sad for the kids to say a temporary bye bye(it wont be the first time or the last time I have taken orphan kittens from a family with young children) but there are always ways around it, and as harsh a lesson as it may seem, kids are never to young to learn that their pets welfare comes first.

and just because something is the norm in the UK, does that mean we have to applaude it? And letting a cat out is a whole different kettle of fish to 
a) letting an unneutered calling female out, and
b) letting a lactating queen with 4 day old kittens out



lizward said:


> I somehow doubt if she will be allowing this to happen again in a hurry,


wish I felt half as confident of that as you did. The OP has every classic sign of having a "disposable pet" type of charachter. Easy come, easy go. How many unneutered adults do you think she has? How often does she have little mini-animal dramas? You think this is a first and a last, well I don't.



lizward said:


> let's be supportive now!


No, lol, seriously, I would rather eat my shoes.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

classixuk said:


> Considering this, and the fact that numerous times in this thread "new members" registered to flame the debate, it makes me rather dubious of the reason for this thread's existence. A single mum with 5 kids, an out of control staffie, breeding rabbits, numerous cats, a litter of kittens who she is successfully hand rearing?
> 
> Sorry...it's just my gut feeling, but something seems out of place here.


Thanks for pointing that out Classix -- if you'd posted 10 minutes earlier you would have saved me walking on eggshells trying to be diplomatic in my reply to Lizward, lol. You are 100% right... either something aint kosher about Davina and her stories... or she just is a *really* bad case of someone with a disposable-pet type of perosnality. There are people out there who go from one animal disaster to the next animal drama to the next animal soap opera. It's never their fault, disaster and mishap just falls in their lap (or rather the lap of their poor pets). but thanks for posting out the inconsistencies... maybe the forum whip-round to get her a big bouquet of flowers and a "well done you" card will loose momentum now


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There are usually clues to attention seekers. This one had a few but the kittens were, quite rightly, everyone's first priority.


----------



## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

classixuk said:


> I'm not sure at all what to make of this post?
> 
> Considering this, and the fact that numerous times in this thread "new members" registered to flame the debate, it makes me rather dubious of the reason for this thread's existence.
> Sorry...it's just my gut feeling, but something seems out of place here.


100% agree with this particular point.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

classixuk said:


> I'm not sure at all what to make of this post?
> 
> In this thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/111376-kitten-help-mummy-died-last-night-4.html#post1693336 you said that your deceased cat's name was Missy, yet in this thread you say her name was Daisy? http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/111376-kitten-help-mummy-died-last-night-9.html#post1697290
> In this thread you say you have a one year old Staffie that killed one of your baby rabbits? http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/111241-what-would-you-do-have-done-2.html#post1691957 and make a comment that kittens need to get big enough to give your dog a swipe?
> ...


Dude well spotted!!!

i also spotted an add on gumtree with help kittens orphaned.
im sure i posted in this thread or another one and asked her if this was her as it was toooo much of a coincidence

but yea if it is.. she wanted to give them away after the mom cat died...


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

luisa said:


> did you also post on gumtree that you needed help cuz iv seen an add on there too with orphaned kittens
> 
> wiskas website gives good info on kitten development ( with what they should be doing at each stage ) this will help you to teach them how to eat n play etc
> 
> i hope your ok and wish you all the luck in the world


<<< here is where i said it


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

davina said:


> thanku so much for being so positive and surportive if only everyone had been that much in the first place i am in good contact with my vet and have talked about the playing thing i have to phone them when kittens are 3 weeks to talk about weaning etc and u are right they are better with me for defo my friend has a mummy cat who very loveing and i have taken them there twice for a bit of cat loveing and a good clean bless them and she likes doing it a week today i have been doing this on my own my 2 older daughters have been helping me the kittens love the bottle lol and are takeing more milk as well now


and why take them to a friends cat if she has 5 of her own ??


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luisa said:


> and why take them to a friends cat if she has 5 of her own ??


Probably because most adult cats don't want anything to do with three week old kittens!

I can't find anywhere where the cat is called Daisy (and I did a search for that word). I have seen (and identified) threads before where someone has later been clearly shown to be telling half-truths. I can't see that in this case.

Liz


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

lizward said:


> Probably because most adult cats don't want anything to do with three week old kittens!
> 
> I can't find anywhere where the cat is called Daisy (and I did a search for that word). I have seen (and identified) threads before where someone has later been clearly shown to be telling half-truths. I can't see that in this case.
> 
> Liz


if you click the links that the person has posted it should take you directly to the post on each link xx


----------



## Guest (Aug 1, 2010)

It's post number 82 here I think it's because she has added an e in daisy making it daisey


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luisa said:


> if you click the links that the person has posted it should take you directly to the post on each link xx


O yes, sorry, she spelled it with an E, that's why the search didn't find it. Well, I agree that is odd.

Liz


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I really dont know why I am posting this apart from to prove what I have felt all along.

Davina is far from a responsible owner and the last thing she deserves is mollycoddling, backslapping and congratulations from us

on searching through her older posts I see she was _*thinking*_ of keeping the mother cat (the one that got killed by the taxi) inside for a week before it gave birth. She reached this decision because her last pregnant moggy gave birth in the garden under the trampoline.

now if that (together with the things uncovered by Classix & Luisa and all the irresponsibility she toned herself on this thread) doesnt go to prove that this woman is an animal collecting irresponsible moggy breeder then I give up.

After all this is obviously not the first pregnant moggy she has had, I would hazard an educated bet that its not the first road death she has had either. She breeds moggies willy nilly and does nothing whatsoever to ensure the welfare of her pregnant cats, her lactating cats or her kittens. If this doesnt prove a pattern of irresponsible behavior, then I really dont know what does. Easy come, easy go. One mother cat splattered over the road, no problem though, she has 4 new victims waiting in the wings to be the next Davina animal drama.

Do we still all feel like having a Lets congratulate Davina party?


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

if only i knew where she was from 


id be calling cpl to get um all neuterd!


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Tje said:


> I really dont know why I am posting this apart from to prove what I have felt all along.
> 
> Davina is far from a responsible owner and the last thing she deserves is mollycoddling, backslapping and congratulations from us
> 
> ...


Gosh, harsh words Tje. But so very needed imo. This whole thread has been one big ego massage for someone whose ego should be massaged the last.

Yes, it was about the kittens and loads of excellent advice has been posted - no denying that.

But I personally think we should all just stop congratulating someone on picking up the pieces from a self-made mess.


----------



## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> so you are right in as far as I can never impose my values on the OP.... but I can stand up and be counted and tell her I think her actions are completely wrong. Staying shut up and just accepting wrong behaviour is a form of condoning... and I will never do that!


There's someone on this forum (can't remember who) that has 2 quotes as part of their signature that really struck me the first time I saw it- one each from Maartin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi about (if I remember correctly )- not speaking out, or doing anything when we see something wrong. By not doing so, we are condoning and perpetuating the behaviour.

I feel that in spite of the my reservations in the way this was presented, I said nothing but made excuses for myself by saying that I do not have enough experience or I am new here. So, I do admire your tenacity for standing up for what you believe is right, we all need to do a bit more of it, no matter the cause we are supporting.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

peecee said:


> There's someone on this forum (can't remember who) that has 2 quotes as part of their signature that really struck me the first time I saw it- one each from Maartin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi about (if I remember correctly )- not speaking out, or doing anything when we see something wrong. By not doing so, we are condoning and perpetuating the behaviour.
> 
> I feel that in spite of the my reservations in the way this was presented, I said nothing but made excuses for myself by saying that I do not have enough experience or I am new here. So, I do admire your tenacity for standing up for what you believe is right, we all need to do a bit more of it, no matter the cause we are supporting.


Peecee... I am pretty sure those quotes are part of BBM's signature. And thanks for your kind words.... one compliment from someone thoughful like yourself makes up for the repeated knocking I have taken on this thread... so thank you indeed.


----------



## davina (Jun 25, 2010)

well thanku for all being so nice and saying what u did about my daughters cat all my cats are netured she was not as i had her of my neighbour as she was moveing but that really cheered me up u all saying horrible things about our cat well my daughters cat being run over etc and the dog never killed the rabbit for a start please dont anyone say anything more on my thread sorry to all those nice people who have helped me with the kittens but i wont be updateing anymore this is about 4 loveley kittens who have lost there loveley mum not for u to slag there mum of and me goodbye


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

davina said:


> well thanks for all being so nice and saying what u did about my daughters cat all my cats are neutered she was not as i had her of my neighbour as she was moving but that really cheered me up u all saying horrible things about our cat well my daughters cat being run over etc and the dog never killed the rabbit for a start please dont anyone say anything more on my thread sorry to all those nice people who have helped me with the kittens but i wont be updating anymore this is about 4 lovely kittens who have lost there lovely mum not for u to slag there mum of and me goodbye


So now you are saying it was your daughters cat who you got off your neighbour? :

To be honest Davina, your story has changed so much, along with the name of your poor departed cat ... people are sceptical of the whole situation.

As for the rabbit, you said it died a couple of weeks later, which you think was delayed shock right? This means your dog did indeed kill the rabbit.

This thread is about 4 motherless kittens, who have ... against all odds and advice survived to just over 3 weeks of age. This whole situation would not have happened if you had kept your lactating queen indoors with her precious babies where she belonged.

For the sake of all of your cats, please get them neutered ... including the one who gave birth under a trampoline. Please stop breeding irresponsibly.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> So now you are saying it was your daughters cat who you got off your neighbour? :


LOL. Maybe the daughter is fathered by the neighbour in the latest edition of her story?

We'll never know unless we tune in to Eastenders in 6 months time, for I have a feeling that's all this was Aurelia...a soap opera!

You'd think such an accomplished scriptwriter could learn to use the line break key though, oh...and remember the character's names!


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

davina said:


> well thanku for all being so nice and saying what u did about my daughters cat all my cats are netured she was not as i had her of my neighbour as she was moveing but that really cheered me up u all saying horrible things about our cat well my daughters cat being run over etc and the dog never killed the rabbit for a start please dont anyone say anything more on my thread sorry to all those nice people who have helped me with the kittens but i wont be updateing anymore this is about 4 loveley kittens who have lost there loveley mum not for u to slag there mum of and me goodbye


well clever you .. all your cats are neuterd yet when you get this one off your neighbour you let it go outside when shes in call!

thats just so very responsible of you.

and if the rest are neuterd was this before or after your other cat had kittens under the trampoline?

if you dog didint kill your rabbit *WHY SAY IT*

you keep stating how hard it is for you as you have 5 kids but from what i can see aswell you have 5 cats + 4 kittens at least 1 dog and a rabit!?

has anyone told you to stop having animals? or kids?

_why do i also have the feeling that your living off benefits too and honest responsible people are paying taxes to feed your kids and animals. because with 11 animals and 5 kids where would you find time to work?_

if the fact your on benifits is true ill eat my own shoe tbh

as pdsa even neuter / spay for free

there is no good damn reason why you should own so many pets with the lack of brains and responsibility you have shown

i bet soon as the kittens reach 6 weeks ull sell them all off too


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luisa said:


> _why do i also have the feeling that your living off benefits too and honest responsible people are paying taxes to feed your kids and animals. because with 11 animals and 5 kids where would you find time to work?_


Good grief, that's below the belt isn't it?

Liz


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

lizward said:


> Good grief, that's below the belt isn't it?
> 
> Liz


as bellow the belt as it may seem she *clearly* states that she is a single mom... and therefore entitled to benefits and free help from rspca / pdsa

and the fact that she has a free neutering service and still not took the cat in shows a complete lack of responsibility.

so yes forgive me for having a jerermy kyle moment but i feel what i said is true.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Good grief, that's below the belt isn't it?
> 
> Liz


yes it probably is below the belt. But I'll hazard another educated bet that Luisa was only expressing what most of us are thinking. So I for one won't shoot her... I will take Luisa with her odd "below the belt" comment any day above an animal collecting irresponsible idiot like Davina.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

Tje said:


> yes it probably is below the belt. But I'll hazard another educated bet that Luisa was only expressing what most of us are thinking. So I for one won't shoot her... I will take Luisa with her odd "below the belt" comment any day above an animal collecting irresponsible idiot like Davina.


haha i did say forgive me for my moment but i did back up why i said what i did too think i was posting the same time as you


----------



## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

luisa said:


> _why do i also have the feeling that your living off benefits too and honest responsible people are paying taxes to feed your kids and animals. because with 11 animals and 5 kids where would you find time to work?_


As I said in a previous post, there's a lot in this post which I was uncomfortable with in regards to the OP's "animal welfare" issues.

At the same time, I am not comfortable with having a go at someone because they are on benefits. I work, pay my taxes but am I well aware ( due to personal circumstances) I could end up on benefits at anytime. Apart from those people on this forum that are financially independent, anyone could be in that situation as well. Not something we wish for or think about but true.

I would therefore hate to think that because someone is working and paying taxes, they would be judging me for being on disability benefits.

Yes, I agree that she could take advantage of PDSA services, as well as taking responsibilities in lots of other ways. So I think those are the main issues here. Therefore those are the points to emphasise. Not the fact she is on benefits and we are paying for it.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

peecee said:


> As I said in a previous post, there's a lot in this post which I was uncomfortable with in regards to the OP's "animal welfare" issues.
> 
> At the same time, I am not comfortable with having a go at someone because they are on benefits. I work, pay my taxes but am I well aware ( due to personal circumstances) I could end up on benefits at anytime. Apart from those people on this forum that are financially independent, anyone could be in that situation as well. Not something we wish for or think about but true.
> 
> ...


Luisa theres an excellent piece of advice/life lesson in there for you. You dont add to the case against Davina by bringing up the shes probably on benefits point. You detract from it. It doesnt strengthen your argument, it weakens it.

That is not to say that I dont think MANY things on this forum. It just means I am old enough and wise enough not to say them out loud. When youre trying to help the animals (which I _know_ is your main concern and I find it laudable for one so young) leave the personal stuff out. It _is_ counterproductive.

Its ultimately better for all the cats out there that we keep this post (and others like it) on the topic of reckless moggy breeding/keeping lactating queens indoors/the importance of neutering  than it turns into a debate about the rights of people on benefits to have countless kids and animals. And the comment you dropped earlier well those are the ones guaranteed to bring a post right off topic.

Please dont take this a nag or a jibe or an attack its not meant that way. Youre a diamond in the making, just a wee bit rough around the edges and this old bird has taken it upon herself to polish your rough sides, lol. 

I hope you take Peecee's post, and mine, in the spirit they are meant.

nice post btw Peecee... I agree completely.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Gosh this thread has gone a bit pear shaped - Whilst I can see where some of you are coming from I do think that there is no need to get personal about a persons income etc thats going too far imo what right do we have to speculate about that?? and then all get on the band wagon  not right and not fair.


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Gosh this thread has gone a bit pear shaped - Whilst I can see where some of you are coming from I do think that there is no need to get personal about a persons income etc thats going too far imo what right do we have to speculate about that?? and then all get on the band wagon  not right and not fair.


no ones getting on any band wagon

i made a post and tje and peece quite rightly put me in my place.

i wasnt commenting on anyones incomes or slagging anyone on benifits off at all and did apologise.

although i did point out that a single mother of 5 would be able to get free vet care and the fact that she keeps breeding animals ( when she can get them neutered for free ) and having them killed ( by car or by her own dog ) shows lack in responsibility.

as tje said im still a bit rough round the edges haha


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

luisa said:


> no ones getting on any band wagon
> 
> i made a post and tje and peece quite rightly put me in my place.
> 
> ...


It just seems to me the last few pages are just "on the attack" and whilst I agree with a lot of what people have said - it could be worded slightly better so as not to sound too nasty - wasnt having a go just merely stating my point  we all learn as we go on forums


----------



## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> It just seems to me the last few pages are just "on the attack" and whilst I agree with a lot of what people have said - it could be worded slightly better so as not to sound too nasty - wasnt having a go just merely stating my point  we all learn as we go on forums


i think its mainly as the thread has gone on a number of things have been pointed out that the poster of the thread has said, that don't add up at all.

yes its good that the kittens now seem to be thriving although the kittens would of been better off with their mother which they now don't have due to the irresponsible actions of the owner.

I'm learning slowly haha :lol:


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Three weeks although an excellent achievement is still early days as far as bringing up kittens is concerned.

There is weaning to go through and that is often fraught with problems, diarrhoea, vomiting, infections.

Not out of the woods yet by any means


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

thread now closed, op no longer updating


----------

