# Feedback on PetSafe e-collar



## Gregory76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Hello people! I have a 2 years old and some months female labrador and although I was against using an e-collar, I must say this has done a really excellent job. 
The problem with her was that she was eating everything from the ground once she was off the leash. Now she doesnt anymore. And I dont really have to press the button for the static.Just the noise button and thats it.Even when the static is required then just the 1st level out of the 8 works.I am thrilled. Just a feedback for those who think about it.


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

Hopefully they'll be banned soon!


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## Gregory76 (Mar 15, 2009)

I dont see any reason why they should be banned. When they are used correctly they are great tools. And for my lab instead of her eating some poison off the street I would rather correct her with the collar. And like I said only the sound button is enough. And there is no change in her behaviour or character.


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

Gregory76 said:


> I dont see any reason why they should be banned. When they are used correctly they are great tools. And for my lab instead of her eating some poison off the street I would rather correct her with the collar. And like I said only the sound button is enough. And there is no change in her behaviour or character.


No, when they're used correctly they're pointless, you may as well train positvely, you could get the same results with reward based methods.

When used incorrectly they're cruel and dangerous.

The number of times I've seen people saying they're great if used correctly and then go on to use it incorrectly and torture their dog really isn't funny.

You may only use the sound button (which you've made a big point about so I presume there's some part of you that questions the other modes) but many don't.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

E-collars are used by people who have small toolboxes. In other words, if someone is impatient and can't or won't learn how to train a dog properly through lack of knowledge, they are more likely to use one. Sorry but it is lazy training and does not 'work' long term as it teaches the dog nothing. Try not having it on her and then see how much she has 'learned'.:wink5:


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Had you tried a spray collar? I used one of these to stop my dog invading football games. It worked really well when 4 years of trying to stop her using positive methods had failed. Positive methods don't work for everything - when the bad behaviour rewards an obsessed dog more than you can, you have to use punitive training to keep the dog safe. I think spray collars are not as bad as E-collars.


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## Gregory76 (Mar 15, 2009)

HighPr00 said:


> No, when they're used correctly they're pointless, you may as well train positvely, you could get the same results with reward based methods.
> 
> When used incorrectly they're cruel and dangerous.
> 
> ...


Thats very true what you say there BUT if someone wants to torture his/her dog they dont need an e-collar to do that, they can do it with anything if they are insane (a piece of wood, a rock anything!). You see my point? A car is also a useful tool but if used improperly it can take lives of innocent people.
I made it clear that I rarely have to use the static, and that at the lowest level, just the sound button does the work.


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## Gregory76 (Mar 15, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> E-collars are used by people who have small toolboxes. In other words, if someone is impatient and can't or won't learn how to train a dog properly through lack of knowledge, they are more likely to use one. Sorry but it is lazy training and does not 'work' long term as it teaches the dog nothing. Try not having it on her and then see how much she has 'learned'.:wink5:


Caroline believe me I have trained my lab for everyhting else with positive method. But as far as eating from the ground (poo from other dogs, garbage) she didnt want to learn. Many times she used to find food and wouldnt come back if she hasnt finished it! And in this part of Greece where I am from people tend to murder dogs that are homeless by putting all kinds of poison in food..
As far as the try not having it on her point, I was suprised also to see that regardless the collar or not she now continues to behave correctly.


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## Gregory76 (Mar 15, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Had you tried a spray collar? I used one of these to stop my dog invading football games. It worked really well when 4 years of trying to stop her using positive methods had failed. Positive methods don't work for everything - when the bad behaviour rewards an obsessed dog more than you can, you have to use punitive training to keep the dog safe. I think spray collars are not as bad as E-collars.


I have tried that but to me she looked more scared with the spray than just the static and the sound with which she looked puzzled.At least thats what I see in my dog. I am not a dog behaviorist but I believe I can read my labs emotions.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Glad you had success with it.

I have tried to spray coller, but they do not always work.

There are many traning methods that can be used and as long as the dog does not suffer, I am all for it.

Positive reinforcement is a great way to train, but not the only way. Although the way some people talk, you would think it was!

I have a dog who likes to chase horses, something which is very dangerous and restricts when he can be let off the lead.

I would consider this coller.

Don't worry about the comments you get back off people. Some people are way to pink and fluffy!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

HighPr00 said:


> Hopefully they'll be banned soon!


I would love you share the experiences you have with problematic dogs. (not saying the OP's dog is a problem) and how you have used positive reinforcement to overcome them.

Sadly, these collers are often a dogs last chance, or the only way they can be off the lead.

Maybe you can give me some examples of extreme behaviour you have rehabilitated?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

A simple leave it would be sufficient. I personally hate electric collars, and they are just for people who can't be bothered to train the right way.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> A simple leave it would be sufficient. I personally hate electric collars, and they are just for people who can't be bothered to train the right way.


Sometimes this does not always work.

I agree that sometimes it is seen as the easy option. But for some people, training techniques alone do not work.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Sometimes this does not always work.
> 
> I agree that sometimes it is seen as the easy option. But for some people, training techniques alone do not work.


So say they were illegal, how would you go about tackling such issues such as chasing livestock/eating things?

One of mine will chase horses and cows if given a chance. I just keep him on a lead in those areas.


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## Gregory76 (Mar 15, 2009)

I am glad my post started a such productive conversation. By all means I dont want to start arguing which method is best and which not. I am just expressing my opinion and my experiences of me living with a female lab. 
I just want to say this: I believe both methods complement one another.whatever the positive and rewarding method cant reach, the collar might can. I say MIGHT, I dont want to be absolute. And in the case of my dog it worked and thats what I want to share here. I am not a dogmatic person, every time I was I lost. 
Thats all.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> So say they were illegal, how would you go about tackling such issues such as chasing livestock/eating things?
> 
> One of mine will chase horses and cows if given a chance. I just keep him on a lead in those areas.


If positive training techniques did not work, then in your case, you would have to keep the dog on the lead.

I would have no problem using one on Sammy if I feel the need to stop his chasing horses. I also discovered yesterday that he will chase livestock as well. Fortunately he was on a long training line, so it was managable.

I hope one day, that I won't have this problem. We start training classes on tues, but if I cannot stop the behaviour, I will consider a coller.

There are some dogs like greyhounds, who can only be off the lead with one of these collers. I see loads of them when I am out. I am sure there are some who do not need them, but a lot of owners I see either keep these dogs on a lead, have an ecoller or muzzle them (hate to see a dog off lead wearing a muzzle, it puts the dog in danger)

If used correctly it can give the dog a much better quality of life.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> If positive training techniques did not work, then in your case, you would have to keep the dog on the lead.
> 
> I would have no problem using one on Sammy if I feel the need to stop his chasing horses. I also discovered yesterday that he will chase livestock as well. Fortunately he was on a long training line, so it was managable.
> 
> ...


So you're saying the e-collar is the only way to train porblem dogs?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

No.

Look at the first sentance.

"If positive training did not work".

You do what you can, but there are some situations where it does not work.

I will do everything I can, before using one of these, but ultimately I would rather Sammy stayed safe and happy, than have to keep him on a lead.

Used incorrectly they are a terrible tool, used correctly they can massively effect the dogs quality of life.

Nothing is black and white unfortunately


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> No.
> 
> Look at the first sentance.
> 
> ...


I wasnt talking about me. I was asking what you would do if e-collars were illegal.

Are you also saying that dogs on leads around livestock arent happy?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I wasnt talking about me. I was asking what you would do if e-collars were illegal.
> 
> Are you also saying that dogs on leads around livestock arent happy?


The same answer applies to me as well. If I cannot fix the problem, then he has to be on a lead if we are likely to encounter livestock or horses.

Of course dogs are not unhappy on a lead, they don't analize why, they just accept it.

However, Sammy is certainly happier off the lead than on. I think most dogs are?


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2009)

I think, if I were in the OPs position, whereby my dog may be poisoned if it picked up food off the street, then I would consider using an ecollar.
Even with a dog on lead, you do not always see to choice titbit before your dog.
In this instance it could be a life and death decision


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I'd hate to live where the OP lives where there is a risk of your dog being poisoned. My dog picks up litter on the street, sometimes I can stop him, sometimes I can't, still wouldn't use an e-collar though.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'd hate to live where the OP lives where there is a risk of your dog being poisoned. My dog picks up litter on the street, sometimes I can stop him, sometimes I can't, still wouldn't use an e-collar though.


So you would muzzle?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> So you would muzzle?


if there was a risk of poisoning, yes i would, rather than use an e-collar.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I wonder if you asked the dog their opinion, what would they say?

If I was a dog and given the choice of a bit of discomfort for a short time or a permenant muzzle, I would choose the coller.

I don't like dogs off a lead wearing a muzzle as they cannot defend theirselves


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I just can not and will not agree with using electric shocks to stop a problem with dogs.

Positive reward based methods have worked 100% with many many dogs.

If it was me i would have done all i could to help stop it or i would have sought help from a professional.

Using the ecollar stops this problem with dog associating the behaviour with shock and discomfort......

Using reward based positive methods stops the behaviour with the dog realising if he/she doesn't do it then it will benefit them with a treat or game......eventually it will break the habit.


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

I understand what you are saying about being unable to defend themselves if muzzled, but surely if a greyhound was in a situation where it couldn't defend itself, it would run? We have a saluki cross and were told by people who thought they knew that we would never be able to let her off the lead, and that we would have to muzzle her.
Neither statement is true - she is off lead every day and has never been muzzled in her life! If she is scared, she runs - if very scared she runs back to me as her protector (not quite sure what she thinks I can do that she can't do by running away, but glad she runs to me and not away from me!!!!)
She is a brilliant dog and although she was a rescue pup (we got her at 10 weeks) she has come along amazingly well.
Back to the OP surely if it is a life or death choice as in the OP's case, you would try almost anything to save your dog's life?
I have also met people who use e-collars really stupidly and totally disagree with them, but as I said, in the OP's case it is life or death for the dog.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I wonder if you asked the dog their opinion, what would they say?
> 
> If I was a dog and given the choice of a bit of discomfort for a short time or a permenant muzzle, I would choose the coller.
> 
> I don't like dogs off a lead wearing a muzzle as they cannot defend theirselves


if it was because the dog was chasing livestock, the dog would be on a lead. if the dog didn't have recall, i'd have the dog on a lead. I've retrained my dog to recall after it fell apart when he hit his teenage phase, with just using treats and a long line.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I just can not and will not agree with using electric shocks to stop a problem with dogs.
> 
> Positive reward based methods have worked 100% with many many dogs.
> 
> ...


But in this instance the dog may be dead before the reward based methods have taken effect


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> But in this instance the dog may be dead before the reward based methods have taken effect


why is it life or death? keep the dog on a lead with a muzzle if you wanted, until the treating technique had taken effect.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> But in this instance the dog may be dead before the reward based methods have taken effect





SEVEN_PETS said:


> why is it life or death? keep the dog on a lead with a muzzle if you wanted, until the treating technique had taken effect.


I agree. If it were my dog i would muzzle him. Its only while out walking and if the muzzle is introduced correctly the dog see's is as a good thing and gets excited to see it come out.

Someone i know has to muzzle their dog and he loves it!!

They can still pant, sniff and drink with it on but it stops them eating things. People use them to help solve eating poo, stones, rubbish, dead animals etc


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## tiddlypup (Oct 4, 2008)

well,all those positive reinforcement folk are welcome to have claude for a week,i used to do working trials,shutzhund and agility for years with my rotts,loved it,now ive tried the same training methods with claude,i even bought a clicker,responded great at first,he then found the clicker where it was hidden,i have to hide everything,he chewed it to bits,hes very intelligent but boy is he hard work,sometimes i have to be a bit hard with him,the problem stems from the first 7 mths of his life he had no ground rules or manners set,it was obvious that he had done as he pleased,i have friends with large dogs,2 used to do the same training and competitons as me BUT even though they find claude stunning and hilariously funny,NONE would like to own him,ask me how i cope,valium n brandy help,lol
i think you have to try whatever works with your dog,with all the laws around now having a trained and well behaved dog is essential,i worry like mad if anything happened to me what would happen to claude,i may try one of these collars if nothing else will work,he is a huge powerful dog,the height of a dane but built like a tank,everything about him is presa


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2009)

tiddlypup said:


> well,all those positive reinforcement folk are welcome to have claude for a week,i used to do working trials,shutzhund and agility for years with my rotts,loved it,now ive tried the same training methods with claude,i even bought a clicker,responded great at first,he then found the clicker where it was hidden,i have to hide everything,he chewed it to bits,hes very intelligent but boy is he hard work,sometimes i have to be a bit hard with him,the problem stems from the first 7 mths of his life he had no ground rules or manners set,it was obvious that he had done as he pleased,i have friends with large dogs,2 used to do the same training and competitons as me BUT even though they find claude stunning and hilariously funny,NONE would like to own him,ask me how i cope,valium n brandy help,lol
> i think you have to try whatever works with your dog,with all the laws around now having a trained and well behaved dog is essential,i worry like mad if anything happened to me what would happen to claude,i may try one of these collars if nothing else will work,he is a huge powerful dog,the height of a dane but built like a tank,everything about him is presa


Do be careful if you take this route, as they can sometimes make a dog aggressive 
With a dog Claudes size, that's the last thing you would want to happen


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Sadly, these collers are often a dogs last chance, or the only way they can be off the lead.


Sadly many people believe they are a dogs last chance because they know no better, in actual fact they're not a last chance at all, they're just a tool of the lazy and incompetent.

A dog that chases can be rehabilitated using reward based training, a dog that is dog aggressive can be rehabilitated using reward based training, a dog that is human aggressive can be rehablitated using reward based training...

...and you'll actually get better results.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Well I guess that makes me a lazy person then


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Do be careful if you take this route, as they can sometimes make a dog aggressive
> With a dog Claudes size, that's the last thing you would want to happen


Dogs should also have a full cardiac workup as well before use.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

HighPr00 said:


> Sadly many people believe they are a dogs last chance because they know no better, in actual fact they're not a last chance at all, they're just a tool of the lazy and incompetent.
> 
> A dog that chases can be rehabilitated using reward based training, a dog that is dog aggressive can be rehabilitated using reward based training, a dog that is human aggressive can be rehablitated using reward based training...
> 
> ...and you'll actually get better results.


totally agree.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

HighPr00 said:


> Sadly many people believe they are a dogs last chance because they know no better, in actual fact they're not a last chance at all, they're just a tool of the lazy and incompetent.
> 
> A dog that chases can be rehabilitated using reward based training, a dog that is dog aggressive can be rehabilitated using reward based training, a dog that is human aggressive can be rehablitated using reward based training...
> 
> ...and you'll actually get better results.


absolutely.... seen it myself and experiencing it at the training... we have alot of dog aggressive dogs there and even human aggressive ones which made massive steps forward and all with PATIENCE and REWARD.

Can someone explain to me why u wouldnt be able to teach a dog the leave command????? problem dog or not?

Surely if u teach ur dog to walk to heel off lead u wouldnt start off on a busy road also, would u?

If u know know ur dog chases, eats things etc u keep it on the lead until the commands are effective to use....

thats what i did with mine... mine wont chase rabbits anymore even when they jump out straight in front off them and a leave is all it takes ....

shock collars are cruel and for ppl who dont know how to handle a dog in difficult situations  IMO


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I ran my own dog training classes, several in different areas, for ten years. I also did private training sessions during those times for those who had more serious problems with their dogs for about 15 years or so. I helped people with dog aggressive dogs, stock chasing dogs and human aggressive dogs several times during that time. I never ever had to resort to shock collars and all those whose owners stuck with it and committed their time and energy to learning how to help their dogs were success stories. I was merely the instructor, the owners did the rest. 

This lady is one of the most respected in pet dog training circles and has had so much success without using shock devices. Angela Stockdale, Dog Aggression Specialist - Welcome I learned a lot from reading her books and going on a seminar weekend or two with her. Oh and she never uses shock collars either.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> E-collars are used by people who have small toolboxes. In other words, if someone is impatient and can't or won't learn how to train a dog properly through lack of knowledge, they are more likely to use one. Sorry but it is lazy training and does not 'work' long term as it teaches the dog nothing. Try not having it on her and then see how much she has 'learned'.:wink5:


Could not have said it better


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm a big fan of positive reinforcement and use it almost entirely on my little one.

But nothing teaches a human not to touch a hot oven quicker than a quick burn. I've just had an incident where my dog pulled his leash clean from my hands and ran off. He wasn't far but he was out of sight. I didn't know what to do. After 5 minutes rummaging through my neighbour's back gardens, he finally came back. I reward him for coming back but has he really learned not to run off in the first place?

If the money to value was worth it, I would probably use one for bigger problems like running into roads, jumping over next door's fences etc. but it doesn't happen often enough to be worth the cash. The great thing about them is that the negative reinforcement is not attached to being close to owner. I do appreciate they should be used in certain cases only. You'll never be able to teach a dog the fun stuff with one, but choosing between a lost dog jumping in front of a car and zapping it at the curb and it's no longer a difficult choice.


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

slicksps said:


> If the money to value was worth it, I would probably use one for bigger problems like running into roads, jumping over next door's fences etc. but it doesn't happen often enough to be worth the cash. The great thing about them is that the negative reinforcement is not attached to being close to owner. I do appreciate they should be used in certain cases only. You'll never be able to teach a dog the fun stuff with one, but choosing between a lost dog jumping in front of a car and zapping it at the curb and it's no longer a difficult choice.


Why is a shock collar the only option other than a lost dog?

I just don't get it, do people really believe the only option in these situations is a shock collar?


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

I don't know where I sit on the Ecollar really, thankfully I have never been in the position where I have had to consider whether I would use one or not.
If it was life or death training and I had tried other options? Maybe, but you don't know until you are in that situation.

One thing I am sure of though, they should not be so readily available. I think you should need a vet/behaviourist referral first. I don't think you should be able to log onto Ebay and order one, as yes, some people are just lazy and want a quick fix and that's not right.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

slicksps said:


> I'm a big fan of positive reinforcement and use it almost entirely on my little one.
> 
> But nothing teaches a human not to touch a hot oven quicker than a quick burn. I've just had an incident where my dog pulled his leash clean from my hands and ran off. He wasn't far but he was out of sight. I didn't know what to do. After 5 minutes rummaging through my neighbour's back gardens, he finally came back. I reward him for coming back but has he really learned not to run off in the first place?
> 
> If the money to value was worth it, I would probably use one for bigger problems like running into roads, jumping over next door's fences etc. but it doesn't happen often enough to be worth the cash.* The great thing about them is that the negative reinforcement is not attached to being close to owner*. I do appreciate they should be used in certain cases only. You'll never be able to teach a dog the fun stuff with one, but choosing between a lost dog jumping in front of a car and zapping it at the curb and it's no longer a difficult choice.


Which is why there is often a huge danger that dogs will start to associate the pain with the wrong thing. Stim the dog for chasing sheep and if you're not careful, the dog will hate sheep even more for "hurting him" and become even more determined to kill them - sometimes so determined that they will "power through" the stim. The dog might not associate the pain with YOU - but it will associate the pain with SOMETHING and it's not always what you want it to.


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## Sypher (Sep 29, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Which is why there is often a huge danger that dogs will start to associate the pain with the wrong thing. Stim the dog for chasing sheep and if you're not careful, the dog will hate sheep even more for "hurting him" and become even more determined to kill them - sometimes so determined that they will "power through" the stim. The dog might not associate the pain with YOU - but it will associate the pain with SOMETHING and it's not always what you want it to.


I've never heard of this theory or seen it happen.

Do you have a link to a case study?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Which is why there is often a huge danger that dogs will start to associate the pain with the wrong thing. Stim the dog for chasing sheep and if you're not careful, the dog will hate sheep even more for "hurting him" and become even more determined to kill them - sometimes so determined that they will "power through" the stim. The dog might not associate the pain with YOU - but it will associate the pain with SOMETHING and it's not always what you want it to.


thats true... dogs will associate pain always with something.

There were 2 cases of dogs at our training which have been on the prong collar by their owners and started associating the pain from cheking with approuching people and both became human aggressive....

... so yes, the dog will associate the pain with SOMETHING and will either fear it and become aggressive towards it.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I used to know a lady who used to be an animal collection officer in America. She picked up a Pit Bull one day who was still wearing his E collar. He had gone straight through the electric field surrounding his owners property after seeing a cat saunter past. (according to eye witnesses) After experiencing the 'shock' as he went over the boundary, he then daren't go home!  It traumatised the poor dog so much that even after his owners collected him, he would only lay down in the garden and shake thereafter! So his owners had to rehome him so that he could have a more relaxed life in a new home - with a proper fence! Had he learned not to stray? Not as much as he had learned that his home was no longer a safe place.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Sypher said:


> I've never heard of this theory or seen it happen.
> 
> Do you have a link to a case study?


No I don't have links - I have the word of a few trainers who have known it to happen. I've also heard a staunch E-Collar proponent admit that if the collar is not introduced and used "properly", the scenario I outlined can happen.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

I've been considering getting an ecollar to use on our dog, as I need to stop her chasing wildlife. (squirrels, ducks, rabbits, horses).

Been trying reward-based ways but unfortunately there is no reward as good as the thrill of the chase for her. And it seems that rewarding her for not chasing doesn't register in her mind that it also means don't chase. It just means if she stays she gets a treat, and if she chases she gets the thrill. So she wins either way.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> I've been considering getting an ecollar to use on our dog, as I need to stop her chasing wildlife. (squirrels, ducks, rabbits, horses).
> 
> Been trying reward-based ways but unfortunately there is no reward as good as the thrill of the chase for her. And it seems that rewarding her for not chasing doesn't register in her mind that it also means don't chase. It just means if she stays she gets a treat, and if she chases she gets the thrill. So she wins either way.


why can't you just keep her on a lead with a muzzle?


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Because I want to be able to let her off, and know I can trust her to not chase.

You say that ecollars are for people who can't be bothered to train the right way, and yet your answer was to keep on lead and muzzle? Sounds like you'd be too lazy to train the right way. At least I'm willing to try things to achieve my aim and provide a more free walk experience for my dog.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Because I want to be able to let her off, and know I can trust her to not chase.


so you'd rather cause pain to your dog so you have what you want and let her off lead?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> why can't you just keep her on a lead with a muzzle?


It is the 'I want' society that we live in. We no longer wish to accept a dogs individuality and instincts. We 'want' to be able to do what we 'want' with them, even if it means subduing them with shocks.  We do not want terriers to dig or hounds to follow scents etc. They now have to be pets for us and we 'want' to mould them into what we 'want' by whatever means it takes instead of accepting them for what they are.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

It's more about the surprise to snap out of it, than causing pain. I would never hurt my dog, and If ecollars were cruel to dogs then they'd be illegal wouldn't they.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> It's more about the surprise to snap out of it, than causing pain. I would never hurt my dog, and If ecollars were cruel to dogs then they'd be illegal wouldn't they.


So what surprises them, if it isn't pain?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Electric Shock Collar Campaign - The Kennel Club

Dogs Trust: Information: Poppy's Opinions: Shock collars

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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Because I want to be able to let her off, and know I can trust her to not chase.
> 
> You say that ecollars are for people who can't be bothered to train the right way, and yet your answer was to keep on lead and muzzle? Sounds like you'd be too lazy to train the right way. At least I'm willing to try things to achieve my aim and provide a more free walk experience for my dog.


you train whilst you have them on a lead and muzzle. the lead and muzzle stop any damage occurring whilst you are training with rewards. it's extremely lazy to use e-collars, a real, good owner would use reward based training and do things correctly.

and e-collars are going to become illegal, hopefully sooner rather than later.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> It is the 'I want' society that we live in. We no longer wish to accept a dogs individuality and instincts. We 'want' to be able to do what we 'want' with them, even if it means subduing them with shocks.  We do not want terriers to dig or hounds to follow scents etc. They now have to be pets for us and we 'want' to mould them into what we 'want' by whatever means it takes instead of accepting them for what they are.


It's about teaching what is and isn't acceptable when out walking. And as the leader, I make those rules, not the dog.

Your post sounds very similar to the limp liberal types who argue that teenage vandals aren't naughty, they're just expressing themselves and challenging their environment. ut:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> It's about teaching what is and isn't acceptable when out walking. And as the leader, I make those rules, not the dog.
> 
> Your post sounds very similar to the limp liberal types who argue that teenage vandals aren't naughty, they're just expressing themselves and challenging their environment. ut:


CarolineH is absolutely right. dogs are dogs, it's because we WANT to make them fit in with us. why don't you fit in with them?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> It's about teaching what is and isn't acceptable when out walking. And as the leader, I make those rules, not the dog.
> 
> Your post sounds very similar to the limp liberal types who argue that teenage vandals aren't naughty, they're just expressing themselves and challenging their environment. ut:


Totally different thing. Dogs are not teenage humans.

Dogs do not do "naughty".

Plenty of people have successfully trained a reliable recall against distractions such as rabbits and squirrels using positive methods. It may take a bit more time and application than simply pressing a button, but it's perfectly possible.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> CarolineH is absolutely right. dogs are dogs, it's because we WANT to make them fit in with us. why don't you fit in with them?


Because I am the owner and the dog is the pet. I make the rules and boundaries, as does every other owner. The pet, being an animal doesn't get a say, it just needs to obey the owner.

Anyway, getting back on topic, has anyone here used one with good results? And if so, what did you use it to train?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Because I am the owner and the dog is the pet. I make the rules and boundaries, as does every other owner. The pet, being an animal doesn't get a say, it just needs to obey the owner.
> 
> Anyway, getting back on topic, has anyone here used one with good results? And if so, what did you use it to train?


because dogs come into our lives and we should make everthing as nice for them as possible. they didn't choose to be born and come into our lives, and you want to cause pain to your dog because it doesn't obey you? it's like slavery.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> and you want to cause pain to your dog because it doesn't obey you? it's like slavery.


No I want to use a training technique to train to obey. I don't wish to cause pain to my dog for disobeying. 
Ecollars are a training method, and apparently a very successful one. Whether you agree with this particular method isn't really of interest to me.

I'm looking for advice on using one and for what type of things they are best used for. If you've never used one then I don't see how you can advise whether other methods are better or more effective.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> No I want to use a training technique to train to obey. I don't wish to cause pain to my dog for disobeying.
> Ecollars are a training method, and apparently a very successful one. Whether you agree with this particular method isn't really of interest to me.
> 
> I'm looking for advice on using one and for what type of things they are best used for. If you've never used one then I don't see how you can advise whether other methods are better or more effective.


cos e-collars cause pain. FACT. that's enough for me to NEVER use one on a dog.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> cos e-collars cause pain. FACT. that's enough for me to NEVER use one on a dog.


Good for you. However that doesn't help me with any advice from owners with experience, good or bad.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i managed to train my dogs not to chase wildlife (rabbits, pheasents and all sorts) and one of them is a breed with a very high prey drive and never it occured to me to put an ecollar on them .... it took me months and months but i never needed to hurt my dogs to teach them "a lesson"...

people use those "tools" when their frustration kicks in and they are fed up putting some effort into training.... 

there is not one situation i could think off an ecollar would be needed as there are always painfree ways to deal with a difficult situation....

... i hope those things will get banned


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Some people using these collars could well find that their once very happy pet becomes aggressive/fearful when you touch the neck area and especially while putting collars on or off.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> It's about teaching what is and isn't acceptable when out walking. And as the leader, I make those rules, not the dog.
> 
> Your post sounds very similar to the limp liberal types who argue that teenage vandals aren't naughty, they're just expressing themselves and challenging their environment. ut:


Somebody is scared of losing the arguement. Can you tell? 

My dogs do as I want because they want to, not because they are scared of the consequences.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm anti e-collar but if you want to get some first hand accounts of what is good/bad about them maybe try an American based forum? When I was in Minnesota they were really common (as are prong collars), along with electric fences. I was shocked and bit freaked out by it but it was the norm over there.


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> I'm looking for advice on using one and for what type of things they are best used for.


I joined this forum awhile back so that someone could explain UK pet food labels to me and just happened by and saw this thread.

Lou Castle has some of the best articles on e-collar training I've found. He breaks down the process step by step and helps explain things.

LOU CASTLE - ARTICLES

He also just has some great articles about them in general

Here's another article 
Introduction of the E-collar

And if you're bored there are some great everyday training articles and information in the rest of the articles Hild has compiled 
Articles of Interest

I haven't used one yet, been researching them for a little over a year....because I'm lazy and incompetent with a small toolbox that contains things other than a bait bag and a marker 

Good luck with the e-collar, it's perfect for off leash control as long as it's done right and really opens the door to perfecting and cleaning up a lot of other behaviors.

Just make sure you do your research on brands. I don't know if you have the same one available as I do in the US but my favorite brand by far is Dogtra and that's the one I plan on getting


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Somebody is scared of losing the arguement. Can you tell?


you don't need to be scared of losing the argument.
I'm not arguing anyway. This is a discussion, and just because you have different opinions to me doesn't mean you've lost. It just means we have differing viewpoints. So please, don't be scared.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> Lou Castle has some of the best articles on e-collar training I've found. He breaks down the process step by step and helps explain things.
> LOU CASTLE - ARTICLES
> He also just has some great articles about them in general
> Here's another article
> ...


Thanks for those. I'll have a read up and decide whether to give it a go.
Cheers :thumbup1:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> you don't need to be scared of losing the argument.
> I'm not arguing anyway. This is a discussion, and just because you have different opinions to me doesn't mean you've lost. It just means we have differing viewpoints. So please, don't be scared.


ROFLMAO!!! 

Go and follow the infamous Lou Castles advice then if it suits your needs. Don't wear your finger out pressing the zap button will you because I don't think any of us know of a lazier form of training.ut:


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks, I'm sure I will follow the advice if it does actually suit my needs. And whether it's lazy or not, if it works and is safe for my dog then that's good for me. If you prefer to use a longer winded way of achieving the same then that's fine too. Some people have more time on their hands than others.

Oh and as for ecollars being the laziest form of training, I assume you haven't included seven_pets suggested method of just putting a lead and muzzle on the dog. Not even being bothered to attempt to cure the problem? Now _that's_ lazy!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Thanks, I'm sure I will follow the advice if it does actually suit my needs. And whether it's lazy or not, if it works and is safe for my dog then that's good for me. If you prefer to use a longer winded way of achieving the same then that's fine too. Some people have more time on their hands than others.
> 
> Oh and as for ecollars being the laziest form of training, I assume you haven't included seven_pets suggested method of just putting a lead and muzzle on the dog. Not even being bothered to attempt to cure the problem? Now _that's_ lazy!


excuse me, i actually said train using a reward based training, BUT have the dog on a lead and muzzle WHILST you are training it. don't put words into my mouth!! 

edit: i trained my dog for 4 months on recall by using reward based training and a long line. i got there in the end, it just takes patience and no way did i ever think of using an e-collar at any stage.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> excuse me, i actually said train using a reward based training, BUT have the dog on a lead and muzzle WHILST you are training it. don't put words into my mouth!!


That's too much like hard work for some people sadly.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> why can't you just keep her on a lead with a muzzle?


Didn't notice any mention of doing that while training with rewards. Maybe you should try to be a little clearer in your meanings.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Didn't notice any mention of doing that while training with rewards. Maybe you should try to be a little clearer in your meanings.


i said it later on in my posts as you had misinterpreted me.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> That's too much like hard work for some people sadly.


I think if you put some hard work in and read the whole thread you'll find I said I have been trying rewards training but am getting nowhere. Once she has spotted something worth chasing, she won't take any treat. She's just not interested, and I have to drag her away in order to break her fixation.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> I think if you put some hard work in and read the whole thread you'll find I said I have been trying rewards training but am getting nowhere. Once she has spotted something worth chasing, she won't take any treat. She's just not interested, and I have to drag her away in order to break her fixation.


so have her on a long line and use whistles to get her attention if need be, and start in a place with no distractions and build it up over time. there is no problem that can not be fixed using reward based training in my view.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i said it later on in my posts as you had misinterpreted me.


Apologies, I've just looked back and seen your follow-up post. I must've missed it while replying to another post.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I disagree it is lazy to use one of these collers. As you have heard people say, they have tried many options, but have found this as a last resort.

What works for one dog does not work for another. It is fantastic that so many of you have achieved such success only using positive training. Maybe you are far more talanted than other people or maybe the dogs you train respond to positive training.

As I have said, I will do everything possible to train Sammy not to chase wildlife and horses, including training classes and working with a behavioruist. But if it is not successful, then I will consider one of these collers.

It quite clearly does not make me lazy, because I have had him for 10 months, and I am forking out money and spending time training, using positive methods.

Keeping a dog on a lead and a muzzle is not the answer and in my opinion, unfair.

These collers do not cause immense pain, true it maybe uncomfortable, but if it is something that see's results quickly, gives the dog a better quality of life, then in my opinion, what's the problem?

If used incorrectly these collers are horrible and I see why people don't like them.


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Go and follow the infamous Lou Castles advice then if it suits your needs. Don't wear your finger out pressing the zap button will you because I don't think any of us know of a lazier form of training.ut:


Actually, you would be much more likely to wear your finger out using Ed Frawley's e-collar method of training rather than Castles. Castles method recommends using the constant low level stim button rather than the repeated use of the nick button. He of course only recommends that method because it's much less taxing on the human so that their finger is then no way in danger of strain. That is opposed to Frawley's method which is to just let loose pent up frustration.

So if she follows Castles way then she won't wear her finger out luckily


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Apologies, I've just looked back and seen your follow-up post. I must've missed it while replying to another post.


apology accepted. 



goodvic2 said:


> I disagree it is lazy to use one of these collers. As you have heard people say, they have tried many options, but have found this as a last resort.
> 
> What works for one dog does not work for another. It is fantastic that so many of you have achieved such success only using positive training. Maybe you are far more talanted than other people or maybe the dogs you train respond to positive training.
> 
> ...


Many people keep their dogs on leads for the whole of their lives as they just can not trust them off lead, like akitas etc. are you saying they are cruel to their dogs?

my dog was on lead for 4 months whilst i was retraining him in recall. is this cruel?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> Actually, you would be much more likely to wear your finger out using Ed Frawley's e-collar method of training rather than Castles. Castles method recommends using the constant low level stim button rather than the repeated use of the nick button. He of course only recommends that method because it's much less taxing on the human so that their finger is then no way in danger of strain. That is opposed to Frawley's method which is to just let loose pent up frustration.
> 
> So if she follows Castles way then she won't wear her finger out luckily


if your finger is wearing out, you're using the collar way too much. i dislike them anyway, but why are you concerning over wearing someone's finger out? shouldn't you be worrying about why they are using the collar so much? i'm confused?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> apology accepted.
> 
> Many people keep their dogs on leads for the whole of their lives as they just can not trust them off lead, like akitas etc. are you saying they are cruel to their dogs?
> 
> my dog was on lead for 4 months whilst i was retraining him in recall. is this cruel?


I didn't use the word cruel, I used the word unfair.

Again, this is down to opinion.

If I was a dog and I had the option of being stuck on a lead or having an initial bout of discomfort, then I would choose the latter.

This is something that people will not agree on, because what you see as cruel and painful, I see as discomfort, but with rewards.

You maybe the sort of person who would rather be stuck on a lead with no discomfort than run free. For me I would rather have the discomfort and be able to run free.

We are all different........


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

just a note, but doesn't it say in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 that no animal should suffer any pain or distress under the 5 freedoms? i'm sure that e-collars cause pain and distress, so really they are against the law, as is everyone who uses them.


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> if your finger is wearing out, you're using the collar way too much. i dislike them anyway, but why are you concerning over wearing someone's finger out? shouldn't you be worrying about why they are using the collar so much? i'm confused?


Sorry, next time I will be sure to add the word SARCASM


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> just a note, but doesn't it say in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 that no animal should suffer any pain or distress under the 5 freedoms? i'm sure that e-collars cause pain and distress, so really they are against the law, as is everyone who uses them.


Quite clearly they are not illegal and I doubt whether they ever will be. Fortunately the law makers think with their heads and not with their emotions. These collers have their place.

There are many people who think Cesar Milan is cruel. You always find somebody jumping on the band wagon because we are too "pink and fluffy"


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Quite clearly they are not illegal and I doubt whether they ever will be. Fortunately the law makers think with their heads and not with their emotions. These collers have their place.
> 
> There are many people who think Cesar Milan is cruel. You always find somebody jumping on the band wagon because we are too "pink and fluffy"


i think cesar milan is cruel but we aren't going to turn this thread into a cesar milan debate.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i think cesar milan is cruel but we aren't going to turn this thread into a cesar milan debate.


Really 

I wonder why I thought that? lol


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

HighPr00 said:


> Why is a shock collar the only option other than a lost dog?
> 
> I just don't get it, do people really believe the only option in these situations is a shock collar?


The people who are utterly clueless, have no idea about understanding the canine psyche, don`t give two hoots about their dogs well being, and are too lazy to bother to learn to train a dog properly and patiently do believe it, yes.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> These collers do not cause immense pain, true it maybe uncomfortable, but if it is something that see's results quickly, gives the dog a better quality of life, then in my opinion, what's the problem?


Tell you what, let me put one on you and speak to you only in a language you don`t understand, [ to make it equate to dogs ], and let me train you to do or avoid something, let`s see how long it takes before you can`t bear it or become aggressive about it...

Tried it as an experiment with three people wearing a vibration only collar, even without a pain element - and please stop kidding yourself, shock collars rely on causing pain, that is what they were designed for - none of the three were able to get a desired result through vibration cues and that was with being human and understanding what the experiment was about, the main result was frustration at not being able to get things right or to stop doing an undesired [ within the experiment ] behaviour. At least because there was no pain involved we could all have a laugh at the end of it. 
Dogs being shocked are subjected to a vile level of mental abuse during the process let alone the physical because of the lazy ignorant coward`s holding the remote.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

if the collar wouldnt give the dog pain then it wouldnt work lol so claiming its not causing pain is laughable ....


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

they aren't designed to cause pain, they're designed to create a stimulus. And from what i've found by researching, it is actually just a tingling sensation. It's not designed to shock them into doing something, it's to distract them from whatever they're fixated on. 
People seem to think they're some sort of doggy taser. ut:


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Patch said:


> The people who are utterly clueless, have no idea about understanding the canine psyche, don`t give two hoots about their dogs well being, and are too lazy to bother to learn to train a dog properly and patiently do believe it, yes.


Oh dear, calling other people clueless? Pots and black kettles? :smilewinkgrin:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> they aren't designed to cause pain, they're designed to create a stimulus. And from what i've found by researching, it is actually just a tingling sensation. It's not designed to shock them into doing something, it's to distract them from whatever they're fixated on.
> People seem to think they're some sort of doggy taser. ut:


When i worked in a petshop a friend and I tried the PetSafe collar out on each other.

Now i know we arent dogs, but it was far from a "tingling" sensation, and i cant see a dog feeling it much differently to a person.

That was a lowest setting as well.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I disagree it is lazy to use one of these collers. As you have heard people say, they have tried many options, but have found this as a last resort.
> 
> I believe ur referring to people who try something for a few weeks and cant be bothered trying any longer. Long term training is 100% succesfull so there isnt such a thing as a last resort to ecollars.
> Also by trying condtantly different options is only confusing to the dog and thats why there is no improvement in the behaviour.
> ...


......... see the red comments


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> I've been considering getting an ecollar to use on our dog, as I need to stop her chasing wildlife. (squirrels, ducks, rabbits, horses).
> 
> Been trying reward-based ways but unfortunately there is no reward as good as the thrill of the chase for her. And it seems that rewarding her for not chasing doesn't register in her mind that it also means don't chase. It just means if she stays she gets a treat, and if she chases she gets the thrill. So she wins either way.


What rewards have you already tried?


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Oh dear, calling other people clueless? Pots and black kettles? :smilewinkgrin:


Hmmm, I have rescue dogs which were horrifically abused, adopted them along with all the behavioural issues their abuse caused, including human aggression, dog aggression, and various other directly related issues, rehabbed them without inflicting pain or fear on them, have been successfully instructing dog training for many years, have been a voluntary behaviourist for several rescues over the years, but you think pot kettle black applies ? 
Having done considerable research on the effects of shock collars I feel qualified to give an opinion on them, and having a few decades of hands on [ positive ethos ] training, rehab, and teaching under my belt I also feel qualified to have posted my opinions. 
On what do you base your response of pots and kettles please ?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Like the cesar milan threads, this will become one of them, so I will bow out 

Again, it is about opinions and what is acceptable to people and what isn't. 

An e coller should not be used as an easy way to train our dogs, but then again people who come on here asking for opinion or for airing their views, should not be shot down either.

As I always say, there is more than one way to train a dog and, you need to find a method that works for you.

The one thing that this forum has taught me, is that people believe what they believe. And when they feel that strongly about something, no amount of debating will make them understand your views. 

Have a nice day


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

This video demonstrates one problem with shock collar training.

YouTube - It's....HAMMER TIME!

The videos of the training involving shock collars have actually been removed now but from this one you can see the result. The dog was trained to hold using a shock collar, if she dropped before being told she was shocked. Now she's reluctant to drop even on command, her drop command is as lame as they come.

This is from a guy that thinks he's a shock collar expert to such an extent that he posted numerous videos of his shock collar training on youtube.

Does that look like a happy dog?

The removed videos were even worse, the dog was clearly very uncomfortable, confused, anxious and when the shock was administered in a great deal of pain.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> When i worked in a petshop a friend and I tried the PetSafe collar out on each other.
> 
> Now i know we arent dogs, but it was far from a "tingling" sensation, and i cant see a dog feeling it much differently to a person.
> 
> That was a lowest setting as well.


The pain is higher to a dog than through human skin, plus humans trying them out are ready for what`s coming, our perception is different entirely hence so many people simply don`t realise how harmful the things are 

Some reading matter for anyone who is undecided

House of Commons - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - Minutes of Evidence


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

HighPr00 said:


> This video demonstrates one problem with shock collar training.
> 
> YouTube - It's....HAMMER TIME!
> 
> ...


i have seen the removed videos in the past and it was heartbraking to see that dog cleary being confused and totally scared!!!


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## gungirl (Aug 30, 2009)

Surely when a dog pulls towards say livestock on a lead, if it is attached to a lead by a flat collar, the damage done to the neck can be quite severe and often dehabilitating? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the e-collar *but* surely if discomfort of an animal is why it should be banned then shouldn't all collars? I've witnessed numerous poor dogs with their eyes popping out pulling like a steam train on a lead, all making that horriable wheezing sound, the owners of these dogs are either, ignorant, lazy or just don't care, surely in these instances a slight shock would be kinder?? As I said I really don't have an opinion either way with the e-collar, but if it works in instances where either the dogs life was at risk OR every other method had been worn out, then surely it's better than lasting damage or even death?


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

gungirl said:


> Surely when a dog pulls towards say livestock on a lead, if it is attached to a lead by a flat collar, the damage done to the neck can be quite severe and often dehabilitating? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the e-collar *but* surely if discomfort of an animal is why it should be banned then shouldn't all collars? I've witnessed numerous poor dogs with their eyes popping out pulling like a steam train on a lead, all making that horriable wheezing sound, the owners of these dogs are either, ignorant, lazy or just don't care, surely in these instances a slight shock would be kinder?? As I said I really don't have an opinion either way with the e-collar, but if it works in instances where either the dogs life was at risk OR every other method had been worn out, then surely it's better than lasting damage or even death?


Personally I would love to see a ban on any neck restraint, my lot all wear comfortable harnesses, three of mine have permanent throat damage from previous collar misuse before they were rescued, their harnesses prevent any further damage - so far from a shock collar being `kinder` than a flat collar in the examples you give there is a considerably better, safer, and non-harmful alternative, plus of course not taking stock driven dogs anywhere near stock in the first place :wink5:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Quite clearly they are not illegal and I doubt whether they ever will be. Fortunately the law makers think with their heads and not with their emotions.


Hmmm. What brings you to this conclusion, other than your opinion that because you feel they're ok it automatically follows that law makers will too? Trends would suggest the opposite is in fact true. They're already banned in Wales. And with all the campaigning against them in this country, surely it's only matter of time before they are banned here too?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

gungirl said:


> Surely when a dog pulls towards say livestock on a lead, if it is attached to a lead by a flat collar, the damage done to the neck can be quite severe and often dehabilitating? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the e-collar *but* surely if discomfort of an animal is why it should be banned then shouldn't all collars? I've witnessed numerous poor dogs with their eyes popping out pulling like a steam train on a lead, all making that horriable wheezing sound, the owners of these dogs are either, ignorant, lazy or just don't care, surely in these instances a slight shock would be kinder?? As I said I really don't have an opinion either way with the e-collar, but if it works in instances where either the dogs life was at risk OR every other method had been worn out, then surely it's better than lasting damage or even death?


i hate seeing dogs pulling from their collars too, but I think a simple harness would solve this problem. they then don't pull from the throat, but from the shoulders so do not cause any pain (as long as it fits correctly).


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

gungirl said:


> Surely when a dog pulls towards say livestock on a lead, if it is attached to a lead by a flat collar, the damage done to the neck can be quite severe and often dehabilitating? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the e-collar *but* surely if discomfort of an animal is why it should be banned then shouldn't all collars? I've witnessed numerous poor dogs with their eyes popping out pulling like a steam train on a lead, all making that horriable wheezing sound, the owners of these dogs are either, ignorant, lazy or just don't care, surely in these instances a slight shock would be kinder?? As I said I really don't have an opinion either way with the e-collar, but if it works in instances where either the dogs life was at risk OR every other method had been worn out, then surely it's better than lasting damage or even death?


Collars don't need be banned but I agree with what you're saying, owners should train their dogs not to chase or pull towards livestock. If they can't do that then there are many harnesses designed for exactly this purpose.

I don't think a shock would be any better, the problem with shock collars is that can be harmful and dangerous even when used "correctly".

Again there's this unfounded idea that it's a matter of shock collar or death, where is this coming from? 

There are plenty of humane rehabilitation methods, if a dog is that messed up that none of them work then a shock collar isn't going to work either, it's just going to make things worse.

I have no doubt they'll be banned in England, it's just a matter of time.


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## gungirl (Aug 30, 2009)

Hehehehe my brain went! Of course there is the harness for those dogs that pull, all I was stressing was the fact that this e-collar is not the only instance where a dog is caused discomfort. I don't walk either of my dogs on a flat collar, Tilly has a halti (as it's easier to get her attention with one on) and Darwin is on a harness. I think i've been traumatised enough by poor dogs choking to death on their collars! I hate to see it 

IMO a flat collar can do a hell of a lot more damage than an e-collar (when used correctly) just thought i'd give you all that perspective.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I've used headcollars on my bigger dogs and harnesses on the smaller ones for years now. It is the owner who trains the dog though, not the gadget - or at least it should be.


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## gungirl (Aug 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> It is the owner who trains the dog though, not the gadget - or at least it should be.


So true!

IMO what this all boils down to is that the *most* damaging thing to a dog is an *irrisponsible* owner. A dog choking on a collar because it's owner either can't be bothered or is ignorant, is a hell of a lot more damaging that a *responsible* owner using an e-collar correctly.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

gungirl said:


> So true!
> 
> IMO what this all boils down to is that the *most* damaging thing to a dog is an *irrisponsible* owner. A dog choking on a collar because it's owner either can't be bothered or is ignorant, is a hell of a lot more damaging that a *responsible* owner using an e-collar correctly.


is there such a thing as an responsible person using such a device 

IMO NO ...

any responsible person would be well aware that there are better ways to train a dog.... or would at least get in contact with those who can point them in the right direction ....


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## gungirl (Aug 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> is there such a thing as an responsible person using such a device
> 
> IMO NO ...
> 
> any responsible person would be well aware that there are better ways to train a dog.... or would at least get in contact with those who can point them in the right direction ....


I was using it as an example, hypathetical (sp?)

I would never use one myself, I was just pointing out that there are other more basic things that could cause more damage to a dog.

Anyhow my main point was that *irresponsible* dog owners are the one's causing the lasting damage to dogs not any one given device! Yes, it's inhumane and a bit *shocking* forgive the pun  But it's the person on the end of the button not the device who's to blame. You could have an owner who buys one of these and only ever has to push the button once EVER, but then you could also get the other end whereas they do nothing BUT push the button whenever a dog does something unacceptable to them. 
IMO this is when you get problems, and this is where it is misused and therefore gets *banned*

But as I said I would never use one, and understand perfectly the rage when products like these get onto the market, but to be honest if ppl didn't misuse these devices then there wouldn't be such a stigma attached to them.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

gungirl said:


> I was using it as an example, hypathetical (sp?)
> 
> I would never use one myself, I was just pointing out that there are other more basic things that could cause more damage to a dog.
> 
> ...


the stigma attached to them is not people misusing them.... people can misuse anything and everything regardless of what it is.

The stigma attached to them is simply because they work on causing the dog PAIN, just as prong collars do.... thats the stigma.

Pushing the button only once is one time too much!!!


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## gungirl (Aug 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> Pushing the button only once is one time too much!!!


I do agree with you, I'm just saying that it's the owners and not the devices that cause damage to dogs  Yes it causes pain, but it would just be a normal collar without the owner pressing the button wouldn't it? It takes someone to press that button to cause the pain ( i'm being nit picky now LOL ) just as a flat collar doesn't cause any damage when used appropriatly, but when attached to a lead with a irresponsible owner on the end who "can't be bothered" to teach their dog not to pull, it becomes a dangerous and damaging device too!

I was just giving hyperthetical (sp?) examples to change the perspective of the debate, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE USE OF THEM, I just would not jump on everyone who does, the original OP stated that they only use the low setting or the noise setting to get a result, they are not misusing this device and torturing their pet. And also they are in a diff country with diff values and customs to us, so I reserve judgement on them, they may not have other options available to them and they probably needed a "quick fix" for the safety of their dog. I'm not saying I agree with the route they took, just that they obviously care for their dog and are not torturing it, as probably a lot of irresponsible owners would!


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

gungirl said:


> I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE USE OF THEM, *I just would not jump on everyone who does,*


I will - they are the tool of the lazy and/or the inept and/or the ignorant and/or the cruel, in every single user at least one of those four descriptions applies.


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

Patch said:


> I will - they are the tool of the lazy and/or the inept and/or the ignorant and/or the cruel, in every single user at least one of those four descriptions applies.


I agree.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> I just can not and will not agree with using electric shocks to stop a problem with dogs.
> 
> Positive reward based methods have worked 100% with many many dogs.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this post. 
I feel that if a dog was scavenging to the point where the dog was going to endanger itself through eating something that could poison it, I would muzzle the dog even if only temporarily whilst training an alternative behaviour.

The link to the picture below really shows why the use of shock collars drives me mad, physical dangers, psychological ones ...
Poor poor dogs...

(Warning: the link below shows an very graphic image)

Twitpic - Share photos on Twitter


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> I
> Twitpic - Share photos on Twitter


Just wanted to point out those are pressure soars and not burns 

It's been proven again and again in court and in the lab that burns from an e-collar can not happen.

Pressure soars from an improperly fitted e-collar that is left on too long without being moved on the neck can happen in a matter of hours

They tend to create an uproar with those ignorant about e-collars because it's assumed incorrectly that they are burns when in fact they are more akin to bed soars.

That's all, you all can continue on with your witch hunt based on emotion and not fact, lack of experience and plain misinformation on how they work and are used. Because anyone that thinks a head halter is more humane than an e-collar either has their head stuck in the sand or knows how to use properly use neither


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Patch said:


> I will - they are the tool of the lazy and/or the inept and/or the ignorant and/or the cruel, in every single user at least one of those four descriptions applies.


How many ecollar users have you actually met? Just to get an idea of the breadth of your experience and statistics for the facts you've quoted above.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Patch said:


> I will - they are the tool of the lazy and/or the inept and/or the ignorant and/or the cruel, in every single user at least one of those four descriptions applies.


Succinct and to the point. I likes!


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> Just wanted to point out those are pressure soars and not burns
> 
> It's been proven again and again in court and in the lab that burns from an e-collar can not happen.
> 
> ...


That`s the classic standard pitch from shock collar salesmen and users.

I will take the word of a qualified vet instead

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/rufus.pdf


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> How many ecollar users have you actually met? Just to get an idea of the breadth of your experience and statistics for the facts you've quoted above.


Since they became wide spread in usage ? Lost count of the number of such animal abusers, too many over too many years. I have already indicated the decades of experience I have in the field of training and behaviour, and a statistician would frankly laugh at your notion of being able to cobble together stats about it, to do so you would need to know the details of every single dog and handler I have worked with and I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend months and months of the non stop writing it would take to provide you with that, sorry but get over yourself and accept that I have far more experience than you want to try taking on :wink5:


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

I purchased an ecollar almost ten years ago, I paid £10 for it and it was actaully a car boot sale that I purchased it from, The sole reason for this purchase was to prevent in getting into the wrong hands. Now this collar let me tell you would not have been cheap when it was new! I cannot be sure but would not think that it is anything like the chinese imports that are currently flooding the market! I would guess it would have cost in the region of £200. 

I can assure you thought that is is a grotesue contraption, very heavy with eight levels of shock, My parnter tried it on his hand and could not endure more then the forth strength, IMO anyone who uses thes needs to seriously question as to 'why' they need to use such a cruel device! Could it be that their training methods have failed do I ask, or are they looking for a quick fix, an easy way out, or what, you tell me?? 

The chinese imports that are flooding the market now are making these devices an everyday item!! anyone can afford one, and many are resorting to them! They are cruel and inhumane imo and for any dog lover to resort in using one I would have little or no time for!
DT


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I personally feel they shouldnt be used. Im not going to be nasty about it and call anyone who uses them, each to thire own i say. How they got aproved is another question. Theres been alot of horror stories of dogs having a heart attack and dieing from the use of them. Also if the collar is left on too long it can kill the skin cells in the dogs neck, resulting in an open wound possible infection etc. I feel they probably would do more harm then good to any dog. It could result in the dog being nervous about having collars fitted.


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## tiddlypup (Oct 4, 2008)

cesar(dive in cesar haters) used this collar on a dog that had been bitten twice by rattle snakes,very lucky to survive,he did with daddy too,both dogs didnt have fear of anything but the rattle snakes after,if you like him or not,he saves dogs lives


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tiddlypup said:


> cesar(dive in cesar haters) used this collar on a dog that had been bitten twice by rattle snakes,very lucky to survive,he did with daddy too,both dogs didnt have fear of anything but the rattle snakes after,if you like him or not,he saves dogs lives


I wont dive in, I dont like some of his methords but that just my opinion. each dog is different his dogs are probably more outgoing and confident than the average dog with problems.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

tiddlypup said:


> cesar(dive in cesar haters) used this collar on a dog that had been bitten twice by rattle snakes,very lucky to survive,he did with daddy too,both dogs didnt have fear of anything but the rattle snakes after,if you like him or not,he saves dogs lives


Actually he used the thing for the first time on Daddy when Daddy was about 12 years old and riddled with arthritis, and did not do it to him to `save his life` [ what a crock anyway ] but to demo it for someone else for one of his wretched programs. If a shock collar should be used it should be on him for a] being such a dire person to use them in the first place, and b] for taking any of the poor dogs in his rehab cell block out to snake infested area`s for no reason other than to risk their lives, no sane person deliberately take`s their dog to dangerous area`s on purpose, and as for snake proofing with shock collars that is a crock in intself, how many smakes in the wild live in glass tanks waiting for dogs to be taken up to them to strike at through the glass while the dog gets zapped ? 
Sorry but no, very bad example regarding poor Daddy, very bad indeed, that dog is nothing but a prop to be abused for his wretched show.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Patch said:


> Since they became wide spread in usage ? Lost count of the number of such animal abusers, too many over too many years. I have already indicated the decades of experience I have in the field of training and behaviour, and a statistician would frankly laugh at your notion of being able to cobble together stats about it, to do so you would need to know the details of every single dog and handler I have worked with and I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend months and months of the non stop writing it would take to provide you with that, sorry but get over yourself and accept that I have far more experience than you want to try taking on :wink5:


Oh dear. Self promotion is never a pretty thing. Your use of the term "animal abusers" shows that you aren't approaching this discussion in a professional capacity but a personal one. So really your hundreds of years of training experience is irrelevant if you've never actually tried one or been demonstrated one by an experienced user.
How can you advise on ecollars when you have no personal factual experience, good or bad, of their use and effectiveness?
It all seems to be anecdotal. 
So actually, I have no fear in taking on trumpet blowing keyboard warriors such as yourself. Have a pleasant and experience-filled day.  (sarcasm mode off)

Back on topic, I said I had been considering the use of one for training. A friend of mone mentioned at the weekend that their colleague had used one recently and had amazing results. In fact the stimulus button had only been used 3 times and after that he had used the noise button combined with voice commands so that the dog learnt to associate the command with the required action. 
I have done research (unbiased research) and it appears that the multiple levels of stimulus allow the collar to be set to give a tingling effect rather than a "shock" as so many people instantly assume is the purpose.
Yes if you go for the top level then you will cause the dog pain, but the idea is to build the levels until the dog shows it can feel something. Not pain, just a surprising feeling to distract it from what it's doing. 
That doesn't strike me as being abusive or cruel. It's no different to a tug on a chain collar.
It isn't the shock that's needed, just a feeling or sensation that's introduced in order to surprise the dog into stopping what it's concentrating on.
I don't want to use it to punish the dog with shocks, but to provide a sensation which makes her stop and relax her focussed brain so that I can then get her to hear commands. (rather than her VERY selective hearing at the moment).

Any opinions on this? And please, not personal opinions about how all shock collars are cruel or any users should be shot and fed to the fishies.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Because I am the owner and the dog is the pet. I make the rules and boundaries, as does every other owner. The pet, being an animal doesn't get a say, it just needs to obey the owner.
> 
> Anyway, getting back on topic, has anyone here used one with good results? And if so, what did you use it to train?


I cant be bothered to read any further. But I thoroughly agree with you.

In what way should we fit in with our dogs. I wonder if my standard poodle would have been happier never getting walked off the lead, never being allowed out of the garden on the farm, constantly being shouted at and corrected - or shocked once and cured of running off after rabbits. Or maybe I should have just let her run free, after all that is what she wanted. I suppose it would have been fun for a week or so until she was either run over or shot for sheep worrying but hey, I shouldnt make her fit in to my lifestyle should I, that is cruel.
But of course I am ignorant and lazy and just want a quick fix which is why I tried training the problem for 2 years before resorting to an e collar. Incidentally if I get the collar out now she wags and wiggles in excitement because it means a training session, even though I havent actually used it for several years.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

I understand your reluctance to read the pages of moral views and opinions, but any chance you could comment on what I've quoted here?
Seeing as you've used one for training, I'd like to know whether my own interpretation of them is correct or not.
Thanks



KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Back on topic, I said I had been considering the use of one for training. A friend of mine mentioned at the weekend that their colleague had used one recently and had amazing results. In fact the stimulus button had only been used 3 times and after that he had used the noise button combined with voice commands so that the dog learnt to associate the command with the required action.
> I have done research (unbiased research) and it appears that the multiple levels of stimulus allow the collar to be set to give a tingling effect rather than a "shock" as so many people instantly assume is the purpose.
> Yes if you go for the top level then you will cause the dog pain, but the idea is to build the levels until the dog shows it can feel something. Not pain, just a surprising feeling to distract it from what it's doing.
> That doesn't strike me as being abusive or cruel. It's no different to a tug on a chain collar.
> ...


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I have not read all the responses so dont know if they are positive or negative, but my thoughts on e collars are they should be banned, there are far easier ways of trianing a dog that eats rubbish off the floor, I would prefer my dog to wear a basket muzzle rather than wearing an e collar, one case that came into our rescue which I will never forget, a chinese man came into where I work(a rscue) because I was known to have malamute, he had with his a 6 month old normally behaved malamute, I advised him on how to handle this dog, he wanted it for a gurard dog, which I explained mals are not suitable to be, over a period of time he came into my works over various small training problems which could have been dealt with by positive reinforcesment, but he totally ignored any advices. roll on another 12 months, the man had not been in for approx 10 months, this time he want to know if I would take the dog off him, I was not in the positio to do so, so he asks could the rescue take him in, we agreed this would be possible, and I tried to arrange for the breed rescue to help, the breed rescue go to visit the dog and could not get into the garden, the dog was tied up to a post in the garden, with a tin shed for shelter. the breed rescue could not sssist, so the man and a few of his friends, bring the dog into the rescue I work at, they had to have 3 men hold leads to this dog to control him, we had to put a pole on him to get him into the kennels, he had *3 e collars* around his neck and a spray collar, he would not allow us to go near him, we had to slide his food bowl through the underside of the kennel door, we could not go in the kennel to clean it out, he was not allowed to be in with other dogs, he would have attacked any and all the staff, the dog had been systematically mentally tortured on a regular basis by the owner using the e collar and spray collars the owner said he could only control the dog if he used them, this dod had to be poled by several members of staff while the vet managed to sedate him to enable the vet to euthanise him in the kennel, as he was totally insane by this point, and a danger to staff. Because the owners surrendered this dog voluntarily no action at the time could e taken, now this was a lovely 6 month old pup that I initially met,that was full of energy and life, and it was turned into a crazed dangerous animal in a few short months of abuse with e collars, they should be banned, and I know people will say everything can be used to abuse a dog, I agree, but this is one of the easiest, you can continually abuse your dog outside from the comfort of your home, you dont have to make any effort just the press of a button, and that is the difference IMO.

mo


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

after me having succesfully trained out chasing wildlife ... and my dogs were that bad they used to kill 4 rabbits per week minimum plus some pheasants..... the only reason i can think of people using ecollars for this situation they have no patience and dont want to put in time and effort into training.... and believe me, it was alot of effort i put in.

My dogs are running off lead in the fields, they are not stuck in the garden.... etc etc so i see people only use that as an petty excuse that they want to give their dogs a better life   

I had my dogs off lead during that time where i knew there is no wildlife about and when i walked my dogs through wildlife they were on a long line.... they were happy, didnt suffer and learnt the positive way that chasing wildlife is a no no but dont have to be scared of it !!!


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

What an awful story, I honestly don't understand some people.



Natik said:


> and my dogs were that bad they used to kill 4 rabbits per week minimum plus some pheasants.....


A great addition to their diet I'd say


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

MarKalAm said:


> A great addition to their diet I'd say


i think they thought so too lol


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> I understand your reluctance to read the pages of moral views and opinions, but any chance you could comment on what I've quoted here?
> Seeing as you've used one for training, I'd like to know whether my own interpretation of them is correct or not.
> Thanks


I think you sound spot on. The fact that you say train with an e collar rather than just whack them with it to stop the undesirable behaviour does mean that you understand their use. There are different makes of them and some are less efficient than others. I borrowed one which I didnt like at all, as it was very unreliable on its zapping, sometimes belting the dog and other times doing nothing at all or anything in between. When I tried that one out I invited the SSPCA inspector out to see it and we both agreed that while it was not cruel it was pointless. I then got a different make which worked very reliably and was easy to control and came with strict instructions that it was a training aid and the only time it should be used on a high level without training was with a livestock worrier that was going to kill an animal.
And yes, you find what your dog notices. My dog was very tolerant of it and needed quite a high level to even make her look up. She was TRAINED and had a good recall so as soon as she lifted her head she heard me calling her and came back. Therefore it was used as a distraction so that a dog that is TRAINED can listen and obey the commands it already knows. Not to scare a dog witless so that it hopefully runs back to its owner for comfort and if not then clears off somewhere in fright. I sincerely hope that most dogs will not need an e collar because it is expensive and time consuming to use as a training aid but if your TRAINED dog goes selectively deaf it is a wonderful tool to get them to listen better. With some dogs a whistle will work but some are just too keen on disappearing out of sight and risking their own lives so the e collar has its place in sensible hands with a dog that has sound basic training.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

moboyd said:


> Because the owners surrendered this dog voluntarily no action at the time could e taken, now this was a lovely 6 month old pup that I initially met,that was full of energy and life, and it was turned into a crazed dangerous animal in a few short months of abuse with e collars, they should be banned, and I know people will say everything can be used to abuse a dog, I agree, but this is one of the easiest, you can continually abuse your dog outside from the comfort of your home, you dont have to make any effort just the press of a button, and that is the difference IMO.
> 
> mo


Wow.  How many other dogs are suffering due to lazy, impatient owners resorting to E Collars as a quick fix? How many young dogs and pups are being 'tingled' just to get the desired response?

I have just looked at my gorgeous young collie aged just 16 months here and imagined myself using an e collar on him and it made my blood run cold! Luckily, because every walk with Merlin in his early days was an informal training walk, I have no excuse to sling an electrical device on him for anything as he and I are so in tune, yet I have never formally trained him as in gone out specifically for that purpose? He has never even worn a choke chain yet walks so well with me, even if he does not have his head collar on - because that's what I taught him to do with a soft, flat collar on. He comes back even if a deer or rabbit jumps up in front of him or other dogs or horseriders come past. This is because I have spent time with him, showing him what gets him fun and rewards and making myself the most interesting thing is his life.  My husband does the same and gets the same response from him.

I have trained dogs and been involved in training other people with their own dogs now for more years than I care to add up and not once have I had to resort to E collars for a result, not even with the bullmastiff bitch who wanted to kill other dogs on sight (and I mean KILL!). Not even with the black GSD who had bitten 4 people. Not even with the sheep chasing labrador whose owner was in tears when she contacted me. There are other examples but I cannot be bothered to type that long. None of these dogs had an e collar used on them yet they all overcame their problems because their owners knew that THEY were at fault and wanted to amend that by learning how to solve the problems that THEY had caused. I am not bragging, the above examples were real. I could not have helped the dogs if the owners had not been willing to relearn all they thought they knew about training.:wink5:

These collars should be banned to stop the idle & ignorant from being free to buy them just to get a quicker result and make their dogs obey them.

My dogs do as I want because they want to, not because they are scared of being 'corrected' with an E Collar.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Oh dear. Self promotion is never a pretty thing.


If you could not take the response to the question you asked re my experience why on earth did you ask it ? :shocked:



> Your use of the term "animal abusers" shows that you aren't approaching this discussion in a professional capacity but a personal one.


Abuse is abuse, it is what it is, I won`t fluffy it up for you or anyone else. People using them are doing so with intent to inflict harm, either through ignorance or for the power they feel it gives them, end of.



> So really your hundreds of years of training experience is irrelevant if you've never actually tried one or been demonstrated one by an experienced user.
> How can you advise on ecollars when you have no personal factual experience, good or bad, of their use and effectiveness?
> It all seems to be anecdotal.


Geez you really are desperate now, you asked my experience, I gave it, you are now assuming only that which suits you, and it does`nt seem to matter how wrong you are in that assumption but hey ho you keep those blinkers on if that`s what makes you comfortable.



> So actually, I have no fear in taking on trumpet blowing keyboard warriors such as yourself. Have a pleasant and experience-filled day.  (sarcasm mode off)


If you can be so childish and crass toward people I dread to think what you are like toward dogs hmy:



> Back on topic, I said I had been considering the use of one for training.


Then you need to learn more about dogs, to consider one indicates one of the four descriptions given earlier regarding users of shock collars.



> A friend of mone mentioned at the weekend that their colleague had used one recently and had amazing results.


And so does your friend need to get a clue about dogs.



> In fact the stimulus button had only been used 3 times and after that he had used the noise button combined with voice commands so that the dog learnt to associate the command with the required action.


Indicating nothing more than your friend did`nt have the capacity to train the dog without pain.



> I have done research (unbiased research) and it appears that the multiple levels of stimulus allow the collar to be set to give a tingling effect rather than a "shock" as so many people instantly assume is the purpose.


Then your research is limited, therefore is biased, you strike me as one who searches only as far as you choose to get the answers you want rather than the full facts.



> Yes if you go for the top level then you will cause the dog pain, but the idea is to build the levels until the dog shows it can feel something. Not pain, just a surprising feeling to distract it from what it's doing.
> That doesn't strike me as being abusive or cruel. It's no different to a tug on a chain collar.


A tug on a chain collar is also cruel, it does damage, therefore your analogy while flawed does indicate your lack of understanding and impact of the applications.



> It isn't the shock that's needed, just a feeling or sensation that's introduced in order to surprise the dog into stopping what it's concentrating on.


Then no shock should be built in, if just a vibration sensation is what is being claimed as sufficient [ that being the non-shock setting ], then all a collar `needs` to be is vibration mode, nothing more, if not *intended* and *designed* to cause pain there should be no pain causing ability in the tool.



> I don't want to use it to punish the dog with shocks, but to provide a sensation which makes her stop and relax her focussed brain so that I can then get her to hear commands. (rather than her VERY selective hearing at the moment).


Then rule out the shock element, just use a vibration only collar if you need that to get her attention, though it won`t get her attention on you itself, you still have to make yourself important enough for her to give you her attention once a vibration has distracted her from her previous focus.

[ ps, little hint, I have four deaf dogs, I have a vibration only collar sat next to me, one of my deaf dogs it absolutely can not be used for, as even the lowest gentlest shortest vibration from it caused her terror to the point of blindly running to escape the sensation, a sensation designed to be *gentle* and *kind* to replace verbal/sound cues for deaf dogs.... so I have an inkling of knowing what I`m talking about much as you can`t deal with that fact....]



> Any opinions on this? And please, not personal opinions about how all shock collars are cruel or any users should be shot and fed to the fishies.


Perhaps you need to stop being personal first, I respond like with like, had you been polite in the first place our conversations would have been in a very different tone...

However regarding shock collars, my opinion based on *experience* is that users of them are indeed cruel, but shooting them is a bit extreme, I prefer the notion of tying their hands and feet, putting the collar on them, taping the button down so it stays on, then walking away. While they wait for the battery to run down they can perhaps consider if they still think it`s ok to use on dogs, after all it`s not like it would hurt them is it, they would just have a prolonged `little tingle` would`nt they.....


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Wow.  How many other dogs are suffering due to lazy, impatient owners resorting to E Collars as a quick fix? How many young dogs and pups are being 'tingled' just to get the desired response?
> 
> I have just looked at my gorgeous young collie aged just 16 months here and imagined myself using an e collar on him and it made my blood run cold! Luckily, because every walk with Merlin in his early days was an informal training walk, I have no excuse to sling an electrical device on him for anything as he and I are so in tune, yet I have never formally trained him as in gone out specifically for that purpose? He has never even worn a choke chain yet walks so well with me, even if he does not have his head collar on - because that's what I taught him to do with a soft, flat collar on. He comes back even if a deer or rabbit jumps up in front of him or other dogs or horseriders come past. This is because I have spent time with him, showing him what gets him fun and rewards and making myself the most interesting thing is his life.  My husband does the same and gets the same response from him.
> 
> ...


Cant give you reps as I have to spread some around first but if I could I would, bravo to your post, they are the words of a *real* trainer :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Patch said:


> Cant give you reps as I have to spread some around first but if I could I would, bravo to your post, they are the words of a *real* trainer :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:


Thank you Patch.  I wish I was still able to work as a training instructor but sadly my health will not allow. The rewards of seeing people start to smile again and relax with their dogs made it all so worthwhile. 

The bullmastiff mentioned will always remain in my memories as it was a momentous day when finally, her owner had the courage to remove her muzzle after we had integrated her into the class over a couple of months. She had learned how to be a dog again and became our offical meeter and greeter, a sort of mascot of the club! Unfortunately, a couple of years later she came down with lymphoma and after trying chemotherapy and it failing, her owners had to have her given sleep. We were all devastated.  The GSD became a pub dog - his owner was a landlord) and became adept at collecting up the beermats and would sit and glare and whine at anyone who was slow to drink up and go when his owner rang the 'time' bell!  He never bit anyone again. The Labrador learned that her owner was actually a helluva lot more interesting than she had originally thought and became more interested in her than the sheep. Sheep were boring - they could not throw frisbies for you or produce treats! :smilewinkgrin: 

If being a patient, non-electrical gadget using trainer means that I am a 'fluffy', then I am proud to be one!


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

YouTube - Guy tests out dog shock collar

Although funny to watch _(on this fella CLEARLY and not a dog),_ I think the video clarifies that e-collars are both painful and cruel - This shows the 6 levels of shocks.......

I wouldnt ever use one on any of my dogs !! 

Anyone thinking of purchasing one should try it out on themselves first; something tells me you might then change your mind!


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Beautiful, Absolutely BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!! - Thats for PATCH!!!


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Fluffy And Proud!!!!!


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

At last , someone who has tried the E collar and found success!!! I bought one 12 months ago for the same reasons , I'd tried everything else and it was getting a nightmare trying to get him to come back when he sees something more interesting than me!!

I think I have probably had to use the shock (max of level 3) on 5 occassions in this time , now I just need the audible bleep if he ignores me and he comes racing back with no problems. I walk 3 times a day and 95 times out of 100 now I just whisle or call him and he comes back , very rarely need the collar but I like to have it incase of an emergency.

If for some reason he is galloping towards a road after a rabbit or he spots some kids on a bike and wants to charge over for a play its good to know I can get him back without having to scream and shout waving half a chicken in the air!!!

Personally , I wouldn't go anywhere without it (unless of course he is on a lead) as its worked wonders. 

Well done and you have my complete support.


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Jesus F H Christ, that just arrived in my inbox and I seriously hope it wasnt for me! My link was to show HOW BAD THESE COLLARS ARE FOR DOGS!!!!!! 

To: The lazy good for nothing retards who use these collars OR those who are thinking of using them and think they are OK - See what 
I have seen this evening!!!!!! - I have just seen a dog die who was fitting from wearing one of these f******* collars! (and it wasnt from someone who would purposefully hurt their dog - they were just not educated and the dogs heart gave out because it couldnt take the shock over time!!!!!) HAVE DOGS, USE THESE COLLARS?!, THEN YOU ARE LAZY AND CANT BE BOTHERED TO TRAIN PROPERLY - IF HAVE A DOG, PUT THE BLOODY TIME IN, YOU ABSOLUTE VILE GOOD FOR NOTHING IDIOTS!!!!!!!


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> At last , someone who has tried the E collar and found success!!! I bought one 12 months ago for the same reasons , I'd tried everything else and it was getting a nightmare trying to get him to come back when he sees something more interesting than me!!
> 
> I think I have probably had to use the shock (max of level 3) on 5 occassions in this time , now I just need the audible bleep if he ignores me and he comes racing back with no problems. I walk 3 times a day and 95 times out of 100 now I just whisle or call him and he comes back , *very rarely need the collar but I like to have it incase of an emergency.*
> 
> ...


Clearly it has *not* worked as you are now reliant on it instead of being able to rely on you yourself being important enough for your dog to come to you willingly, you would rather shock your dog and have him come back to you because of the pain *you* have caused to your companion, [ who deserves love, care and respect ], by pressing the button than use a reward.

Training has only worked when a dog is reliable, and from your own words without being shocked your dog is *not* reliable therefore *it has not worked*. 
And you applaud others who like yourself would rather use pain than put in any effort to train properly, how sad for the dogs concerned and how sad for users not to be able nor willing to train normally and properly like the millions of non-shock users. 
Definitely puts you in at least two of the categories of four causes of so called humans using these things....


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Twiglet6303 said:


> Jesus F H Christ, that just arrived in my inbox and I seriously hope it wasnt for me! My link was to show HOW BAD THESE COLLARS ARE FOR DOGS!!!!!!
> 
> To: The lazy good for nothing retards who use these collars OR those who are thinking of using them and think they are OK - See what
> I have seen this evening!!!!!! - I have just seen a dog die who was fitting from wearing one of these f******* collars! (and it wasnt from someone who would purposefully hurt their dog - they were just not educated and the dogs heart gave out because it couldnt take the shock over time!!!!!) HAVE DOGS, USE THESE COLLARS?!, THEN YOU ARE LAZY AND CANT BE BOTHERED TO TRAIN PROPERLY - IF HAVE A DOG, PUT THE BLOODY TIME IN, YOU ABSOLUTE VILE GOOD FOR NOTHING IDIOTS!!!!!!!


That`s a horrific thing to have to see and so damned needless, my heart goes out to the poor dog, and to the awful distress what you have seen has caused you, if you are anything like me I know you will carry the image for a long long time, when will people learn )))hugs((( :sad:


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> ...its good to know I can get him back without having to scream and shout waving half a chicken in the air!!!


I'm amazed, you'd rather cause your dog pain than use commands and rewards?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Twiglet6303 said:


> Jesus F H Christ, that just arrived in my inbox and I seriously hope it wasnt for me! My link was to show HOW BAD THESE COLLARS ARE FOR DOGS!!!!!!
> 
> To: The lazy good for nothing retards who use these collars OR those who are thinking of using them and think they are OK - See what
> I have seen this evening!!!!!! - I have just seen a dog die who was fitting from wearing one of these f******* collars! (and it wasnt from someone who would purposefully hurt their dog - they were just not educated and the dogs heart gave out because it couldnt take the shock over time!!!!!) HAVE DOGS, USE THESE COLLARS?!, THEN YOU ARE LAZY AND CANT BE BOTHERED TO TRAIN PROPERLY - IF HAVE A DOG, PUT THE BLOODY TIME IN, YOU ABSOLUTE VILE GOOD FOR NOTHING IDIOTS!!!!!!!


And for one dog who dies, there are lots more who benefit from a better quality of life with one of these collers. Dogs who can go off the lead, and enjoy a good run, for one reason.

Your remarks are unnecessary, I understand you maybe upset, but you cannot go around calling members "vile, good for nothing idiots".

Wind your neck in!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> At last , someone who has tried the E collar and found success!!! I bought one 12 months ago for the same reasons , I'd tried everything else and it was getting a nightmare trying to get him to come back when he sees something more interesting than me!!
> 
> I think I have probably had to use the shock (max of level 3) on 5 occassions in this time , now I just need the audible bleep if he ignores me and he comes racing back with no problems. I walk 3 times a day and 95 times out of 100 now I just whisle or call him and he comes back , very rarely need the collar but I like to have it incase of an emergency.
> 
> ...


Glad you had success with it. Don't take any notice of the backlash you are bound to receive!

It's not my first choice, and I haven't used one, but glad it worked for you

x


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I just think 660carrie is ridiculous. She clearly says she can't be bothered to shout and jump up and down with chicken to get her dogs attention, but rather cause pain and use a shock collar instead. That to me is a poor owner and she should give her dog to someone who can train it properly to come back. All dogs do not have 100% recall, but it's a risk we take when we let them off lead. We don't let them off near roads or any dangers, just in case they do run off, but we don't all use shock collars "in case", we use rewards, jump up and down, shriek, yell at the tops of our voices, throw chicken around and act like complete loons to get our dogs back, but it's worth doing it that way that putting a shock collar on.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And for one dog who dies, there are lots more who benefit from a better quality of life with one of these collers.


 Nuff said.

With all due respect for your opinion, I really cannot agree with that at all. No dog should have to die through such stress.



> Your remarks are unnecessary, I understand you maybe upset, but you cannot go around calling members "vile, good for nothing idiots".
> Wind your neck in!


Upon that we can agree. I was disappointed to see a post like that as until now, this thread has remained civilised despite the opposing views. I agree with the sentiments if a dog died but I cannot agree with that tone nor the calling of names.

Disagree with the topic but don't denigrate the posters, no matter what opinion they hold.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> *And for one dog who dies, there are lots more who benefit from a better quality of life with one of these collers. *Dogs who can go off the lead, and enjoy a good run, for one reason.
> 
> Your remarks are unnecessary, I understand you maybe upset, but you cannot go around calling members "vile, good for nothing idiots".
> 
> Wind your neck in!


are u serious?  So what actually means life to u? Death is justified if it can help other dogs to go through life FRIGHTEND of getting zapped, what quality of life is that??? Or are u referring to the quality of life for the lazy OWNERS so they have more stressfree walks rather then bothering what the dog is up to?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Nuff said.
> 
> With all due respect for your opinion, I really cannot agree with that at all. No dog should have to die through such stress.
> 
> ...


i agree... there is no need for such a tone ... its not a way to put opinions across


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> are u serious?  So what actually means life to u? Death is justified if it can help other dogs to go through life FRIGHTEND of getting zapped, what quality of life is that??? Or are u referring to the quality of life for the lazy OWNERS so they have more stressfree walks rather then bothering what the dog is up to?


Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a dog, quality of life is more important.

If a dog cannot live a full life and happy life, then they may as well be dead.

Note, that I have not actually used one and I have stated that it is not my first choice.

But I believe owners have the right to choose the training methods for their dog.

If I was to hear that a dog had suffered, beyond what is acceptable, then I would be jumping up and down as much as the next person.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a dog, quality of life is more important.
> 
> If a dog cannot live a full life and happy life, then they may as well be dead.
> 
> ...


i didnt know that a dog just because " it doesnt respond" to the owner calling it has automaticlly a bad quality of life .... lol  

im confused lol


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

i havent read all the replys because
just because i cant read big paragraphs:blushing:
im against e collars though
unless the owner gets to wear one to 
im for a even playing field
everytime you go near the biscut tin bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzut:
dogs have rights
even poo eating labs like mine
we can still work on a strong LEAVE
noogsy xxxx


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And for one dog who dies, there are lots more who benefit from a better quality of life with one of these collers. Dogs who can go off the lead, and enjoy a good run, for one reason.


Rubbish, it comes with proper patient training, and for those which for some reason absolutely can not go off lead there are long lines [ *always to harness, never to collar ], or there are large enclosed spaces which can be utilised. If someone can only get `results` by deliberately causing pain they should take a long hard look at themselves and concede that perhaps their lack of proper training experience means they are not the right owner for that dog.



> Your remarks are unnecessary, I understand you maybe upset, but you cannot go around calling members "vile, good for nothing idiots".


So it`s ok to kill a dog but not ok to speak out against the cause of the dogs death [ ultimately that being a person holding the remote ] ? 
Interesting perspective [ sic ]

Are you suggesting members can`t be called what they are simply because they are members ? Or that being members gives people carte blanche to commit cruel acts without a word uttered to express how cruel they are being ?



> Wind your neck in!


Perfect example of double standards on the manners front....


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I just think 660carrie is ridiculous. She clearly says she can't be bothered to shout and jump up and down with chicken to get her dogs attention, but rather cause pain and use a shock collar instead. That to me is a poor owner and she should give her dog to someone who can train it properly to come back. All dogs do not have 100% recall, but it's a risk we take when we let them off lead. We don't let them off near roads or any dangers, just in case they do run off, but we don't all use shock collars "in case", we use rewards, jump up and down, shriek, yell at the tops of our voices, throw chicken around and act like complete loons to get our dogs back, but it's worth doing it that way that putting a shock collar on.


Absolutely right !


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

Wow, this is the same kind of feverish misinformed propaganda that gets pits and other breeds killed and banned all around the world. The absolute hate for something you've no experience with and the people that use them correctly is scary in it's fanaticalism

Until you have felt the stim of a new high quality e-collar model (not bark collar and not an invisible fence one or the ones hunters used 50 years ago) on the working level that is used by a experienced handler or seen an experienced handler work with a dog properly using one then you have no room to preach or gather the pitch forks and torches for a witch hunt. It's people like you that get useful, safe and effective training tools taken away from the public through your ignorance and your inability to look past the word "SHOCK" 

To all those that are thinking about using one-do your homework and don't skimp on the research. If you can find a trainer that is diverse in their training technique, has experience with one and makes you and your dog feel comfortable. If you aren't comfortable with an e-collar don't use one and if your dog reacts negatively rethink your approach. Understand, there aren't ways to train, there are many and it's very easy to incorporate a marker, treats, toys, prey drive and an e-collar into your technique. Be creative

For those who are using one, I wish you well and thank god I live in a place that isn't so quick to hand up our rights as pet owners. and I hope you continue to have fun and success using this valuable tool no matter what the quick to judge and uneducated public says


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

I have just returned home from a very cream crackering day of battery hen rescuing (FYI  just 1 of my animal jobs!) to read with absolute amazement and actually amusement ,'peoples' shock (pardon the pun), horror at being called 'a name' Hahahahahaha Yes, I repeat, A NAME!!!!! - Its soo bl00dy hilarious that (1) I cant stop laughing and (2) I actually pity you on every level humanly possible :001_tt2: - You 'People' are far, FAR more concerned about being called 'a name' than you are about hurting your dogs with these utterly spiteful and potentially life threatening collars!!!!! Fact Is - They DO Hurt Dogs - PERIOD! Thats why they 'work' because the dog fears the pain!!!!! DOH  HELLLOOOO MCFLY!!!!!!!!!!!
Listen - 'Rule of Thumb' - Sticks and Stones an all that jazz ..... Remember that?!?!?! - Now........ GET OVER IT! - I stand FULLY by what I said..... OH and as for the 'winding my neck in' comment - Paaaaaaa Haaaaaaaa - I like it just fine where it is Love AND its staying there..... (Especially for you ) ! :001_tt2:
P.S - Please go ahead, add SAD the 'name calling' list :001_tt2:


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

but we must not go against the preaching and judging of the almighty Saint Patch. 

We must bow down to the all knowing and all telling master. And we must accept being called names and given abuse for daring to have differing opinions. ut: :001_tt2:

Personally I have chosen to ignore your "holier than thou" moralistic opinions, but have enjoyed hearing other peoples thoughts and everybodies take on the subject. There is never a need for name calling, regardless of what is being said that you don't like. Abusing a member because of the questions they ask is totally unacceptable, and is totally unhelpful.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Twiglet6303 said:


> Fact Is - They DO Hurt Dogs


Which factual research have you got this from? I assume as it's fact that you have the evidence handy to quote on here. If not then your "fact" is about as well put together as your appalling grammar and paragraph structure.


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Ummmmm and maybe 'CHICK', You need to ask people what they do for a living and what actual experience they have before making your comments!!!!! 

Just goes to show, those who make the effort and those..... WHO DONT!


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

who's "chick"?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

From FAQ

Harassment 
Harassing, flaming and threatening other users WILL NOT be tolerated. Moderators / Administrators reserve the right to delete any posts if they find them inappropriate in any way.

& 

Respect 
This is a site which enjoys the company of members from all over the world. While healthy debate is encouraged, please have the courtesy to respect the views of others. Please do not use obscene or offensive language, or engage in personal attacks or "flaming" of other members. This will not be tolerated and Pet Forums staff will be entitled to suspend users accounts.

There is no need for this. :nonod: It is turning the thread sour and is not conducive to good, civillised, grown up debate! A good debater can get their point across without flaming the other side. A poor debater soon resorts to angry ranting to back up their opinions and experiences. The latter end up making themselves look silly and people will then miss their point totally as it has been smothered by their insulting remarks. :

I can well understand the passion especially where someone has witnessed animal abuse and cruelty first hand, as I have myself, but nothing is gained by shouting at the opposition, no matter which side you are standing on.


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

With the name 'KenDodd' - Hahahahahha Please!!! - Now, put yer feather duster away and maybe we could 'PATCH' things up! :001_tt2:


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

P.S - I think you might need to check your own 'appalling grammar and paragraph structure' before commenting on mine...... Just a nice helpful suggestion.... 

Night Night XX


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

OMG I just googled some information on this collar seeing as their were so many mixed views and it's absolutly barbariac !!! 

The youtube video shows how painfull this is.

How can anyone call themselvs an animal lover and then use this on an animal? ut:


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> but we must not go against the preaching and judging of the almighty Saint Patch.
> 
> We must bow down to the all knowing and all telling master.


I thought there was a minimum age limit to join a forum, perhaps I was mistaken ?



> And we must accept being called names and given abuse for daring to have differing opinions. ut: :001_tt2:


Verbal abuse is nothing compared to the physical abuse meted out to dogs and other animals, animal abusers deserve to be called every name under the sun as far as I`m concerned, like Twiglet I find it laughable that people can be sooooo on a high horse about someone calling abusers exactly what they are but those abusers or those in agreement with abuse believing that the abuse being committed is fine and dandy. Well, I should say it would be laughable if it were not such a twisted perception.



> Personally I have chosen to ignore your "holier than thou" moralistic opinions,


You had best ignore the opinions of everyone else including animal welfare organisations, the UK Military, UK SAR, and all other trainers and behaviourists who rightly abhor the use of pain devices on dogs. Oh, of course, that`s exactly what you are doing.....



> but have enjoyed hearing other peoples thoughts and everybodies take on the subject.


I think you have enjoyed baiting more than anything but if that`s what you need to do to get you through the day that`s your issue to deal with.



> There is never a need for name calling, regardless of what is being said that you don't like.


Ah, so you never ever call anyone anything then, no matter what they have done, righty ho then....



> Abusing a member because of the questions they ask is totally unacceptable, and is totally unhelpful.


No one has been abused for asking the questions, however anyone who abuses animals deserves to face the consequences, it`s not like the dogs can or would dare stand up for themselves against the owner pressing the button so someone has to be their voice, every person opposing shock collars are doing nothing more than being advocates for the dogs suffering at their owners button-happy hands.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> For those who are using one, I wish you well and thank god I live in a place that isn't so quick to hand up our rights as pet owners.


Never mind the rights of the dogs eh ?



> and I hope you continue to have *fun* and success using this valuable tool no matter what the quick to judge and uneducated public says


Have `fun` using a shock collar ? I can`t believe anyone could write that, absolutely unbelievable, good grief :


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Twiglet6303 said:


> Ummmmm and maybe 'CHICK', You need to ask people what they do for a living and what actual experience they have before making your comments!!!!!


Twiglet, that question was asked but the answer apparently was not what was hoped for, it seems anyone having a few decades of experience is a bad thing :shocked: ut:


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

Patch said:


> Twiglet, that question was asked but the answer apparently was not what was hoped for, it seems anyone having a few decades of experience is a bad thing :shocked: ut:


I'll just quote myself here 



ChickneSholay said:


> Until you have felt the stim of a new high quality e-collar model (not bark collar and not an invisible fence one or the ones hunters used 50 years ago) on the working level that is used by a experienced handler or seen an experienced handler work with a dog properly using one then you have no room to preach or gather the pitch forks and torches for a witch hunt.


And just add "Used a new high quality model CORRECTLY" to that statement. Because training dogs for a 100 years still doesn't give you experience with a properly used high quality E-collar and thus, no leg to stand on.

If you have used one correctly and still feel that strongly then I completely respect your opinion. Very much disagree with it, but respect it all the same.



Patch said:


> Never mind the rights of the dogs eh ?


Well now, that's a whole other can of worms


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

:001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:

*Wales Shock Collar Ban One Step Closer* The use of electric training aids, including shock collars, is to be banned in Wales. The Welsh Assembly Government announced yesterday that it is to produce draft detailed Regulations introducing the ban.

The announcement follows a period of consultation on the use of electric shock collars on dogs and cats, which was initiated in November last year by the Welsh Assembly Minister for Rural Affairs, Elin Jones.

The Minister said yesterday that she had assessed arguments both for and against a ban on the devices. She said:

"This has not been an easy subject to examine. There is genuinely a large degree of concern about how these devices are improperly used, in contrast to responses from people who have used them and found they have worked in stopping an animal from misbehaving. 
"After giving due consideration to the arguments, I propose to introduce a ban on the use of electric shock collars in Wales.

Commenting yesterday, the Kennel Club's Caroline Kisko responded to the news:

"We are extremely pleased to hear of the announcement made today. Electric shock collars are a cruel, outdated and unsuitable method of training dogs and we applaud Wales for leading the way on this issue and hope others will follow."

Meanwhile the RSPCA called electric shock collars '*instruments of cruelty'.* Its head of external affairs, David Bowles, said: 
"This is the first major piece of legislation in Wales and England under the Animal Welfare Act, and we fully support and congratulate the minister on her commitment to improving the standards of animal welfare in Wales."


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## tiddlypup (Oct 4, 2008)

have to say i was thinking of using one with claude but after doing me research i dont think i will bother,i will just go bald with stress instead,lol


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

TIDDLY - Thats absolutely wonderful to hear XXXXXX :smilewinkgrin: You really have made my day!!

These vile little collars will be completely banned soon enough - Any pain on any animal is just not acceptable on any level! If you have a pet, you simply have to put the time in to train it _(even if it is inconvenient for some people)_ut:. A little repetition goes a long long way, trust me XX

PATCH - Im giving you a high five matey :smilewinkgrin:

I shall be raising a glass to both of you this afternoon!! XX


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Got a spare wig if you want it


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Twiglet6303 said:


> I have just returned home from a very cream crackering day of battery hen rescuing (FYI  just 1 of my animal jobs!) to read with absolute amazement and actually amusement ,'peoples' shock (pardon the pun), horror at being called 'a name' Hahahahahaha Yes, I repeat, A NAME!!!!! - Its soo bl00dy hilarious that (1) I cant stop laughing and (2) I actually pity you on every level humanly possible :001_tt2: - You 'People' are far, FAR more concerned about being called 'a name' than you are about hurting your dogs with these utterly spiteful and potentially life threatening collars!!!!! Fact Is - They DO Hurt Dogs - PERIOD! Thats why they 'work' because the dog fears the pain!!!!! DOH  HELLLOOOO MCFLY!!!!!!!!!!!
> Listen - 'Rule of Thumb' - Sticks and Stones an all that jazz ..... Remember that?!?!?! - Now........ GET OVER IT! - I stand FULLY by what I said..... OH and as for the 'winding my neck in' comment - Paaaaaaa Haaaaaaaa - I like it just fine where it is Love AND its staying there..... (Especially for you ) ! :001_tt2:
> P.S - Please go ahead, add SAD the 'name calling' list :001_tt2:


Are there any mods out there, who are actually looking at this thread?

This forum is about having a debate, and sharing ideas. Not bringing it down to the gutter where we start calling people names.

We all have strong opinions regarding the welfare of our dogs, but this should not be tolerated!

Mods - you should intervene on this!


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> I'll just quote myself here
> 
> And just add "Used a new high quality model CORRECTLY" to that statement. Because training dogs for a 100 years still doesn't give you experience with a properly used high quality E-collar and thus, no leg to stand on.
> 
> If you have used one correctly and still feel that strongly then I completely respect your opinion. Very much disagree with it, but respect it all the same.


You put your point forward politely so I will respond in kind - my experience of shock collars began when they first came out and has been continually ongoing and up to date with the newest models and techniques, [ including issues the manufacturers themselves state the things should never be used for ], as far as I`m concerned I have to be up to date on them to know what I, [ and every other person against them ], am campaigning about, my experience also includes rehab of dogs which have had them used on them with horrendous behavioural results.
I always consider both sides before formulating an opinion, [ on all things to do with training ].
Having rehabbed *exceptionally* severely disturbed dogs [ my life long passion basically, helping dogs which have otherwise given up on, along with specialising in deaf dogs ], and never once `needing` to consider for a nano second ever resorting to a shock collar, I do not believe there is a need nor a place in the world of training for shock collars to be used on *any* dog in *any* situation.

Hope that gives you an insight on where I`m coming from myself assuming it was an open comment to all who oppose shock collars :smilewinkgrin:


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

tiddlypup, so happy to see you have decided against taking the shock collar route, and don`t you worry, you will keep your hair because knowing you are not harming your babe will take the edge off the stress while you continue to work on proper training, and once you have cracked whatever you are working on the training results will be there for life, so you can look forward to the enhanced bonding you will create between you by working with patience and a gentle hand 
:thumbup1:

twiglet, high five right back atcha  I hope you had a glass for me as I`m allergic to alcohol :cryin: so I have to drink by proxy :laugh:


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Yes Mods - Please intervene - See the thing is, I guess 'some' are a little put out that their argument is severely flawed. They cant win so expect the 'Mods' to step in and ban the people they dont agree with. By all means, ban me - not a problem at all - My message has gone out loud and clear and funnily enough, since posting, I have been overwhelmed with emails of support :001_tt2:. FYI - I will sleep soundly at night knowing I would NEVER EVER hurt any animal OR respect anyone that condones the same - my conscience is TOTALLY and UTTERLY clear - I speak for those who cannot speak themselves - Banning me will not change my views whatsoever OR erase your sad tolerance of using/supporting those who use these collars. At some point they will be banned on a wider scale and I hope you will remember me as part of that. My previous 'recent' educational thread - welsh gov law/KC/RSPCA laughes in the face of 'abusers' and guess what - so do I :001_tt2:


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## Twiglet6303 (Jul 23, 2009)

Just a little sherry for us pals on here (although after watching Whitters on x factor - Put me right off love! ) Currently have 3 hedgehogs in my front room (legs akimbo in front of my fire!)  All good here XX


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I cant be bothered to read any further. But I thoroughly agree with you.
> 
> In what way should we fit in with our dogs. I wonder if my standard poodle would have been happier never getting walked off the lead, never being allowed out of the garden on the farm, constantly being shouted at and corrected - or shocked once and cured of running off after rabbits. Or maybe I should have just let her run free, after all that is what she wanted.


The thing is, shocking a dog with a chase problem could well make a chase problem worse.

(Without waffling :blushing In essense, when dogs chase they get a massive dopamine (feel goooooood boost) which is why they will seek out opportunities to chase- they enjoy it that much. You will find that with dogs that are nervous or have negative experiences/issues in their lives/ are particually stressed out, they will actively look for opportunities to chase more, as a way of making up for these things. By shocking a dog for chasing say a rabbit, you have created a avoidance behaviour through punishment. 
The dog learns through classical conditioning to associate the rabbit with the nasty electric shock. 
So now, when the dog sees or is presented with the opportunity to chase a rabbit, they face conflict and stress, they know that they want to chase a rabbit and yet are fearful of the shock. It is for this reason that you may well find that the chase "object" originally the rabbit, will change and the dog could well begin to chase something else, deer, bikes, squirrels, livestock etc... things it previously didn't bother with. 
I believe that with a chase problem the best way to solve it is by teaching a chase recall. Sometimes quite a lengthy proccess, up to a year or more sometimes but it really depends on the dog, owner and how much time you put in. Obviously this chase recall involves focusing said dog on an object that you want them to chase and getting to the point where you can call "toy" in the prescense of the previous chase objects (i.e. rabbits) and the dog will either immediately spin around to you and wait for his toy or drop into a down and wait for you to release him to get his toy. Totally goes on personally preference really, and what you think best suits the dog. Collies for instance, especially the worky types actively offer you "down" behaviours so it's really easy to encorporate into chase recall training. 
At the end of the proccess though, you'll have a dog that actively chooses to stay with their person and their toy rather than chase other object and many will get to the point where they completely ignore the previous chase object. You will have a dog that is happy rather than conflicted, confused and nervous.
More info here:
How do I stop my dog chasing? - David Ryan CCAB

Anyway I've gone off topic but what I really feel is that shock collars are really not a suitable or kind way of training dogs. They may appear to work but IMO as with all "train with pain" type methods they really can make a problem a lot worse or just create a new one. You want your dog to trust you, why would you use a shock collar and hurt him/her when you can easily train them using positive, kind, effective methods and have a happy, healthy dog? All things take time, IMO training really is not as simple as just putting a collar on a dog and pressing a button. You have to work with the dog and strengthen your relationship.


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## ChickneSholay (Jan 28, 2009)

Patch said:


> You put your point forward politely so I will respond in kind\:


And I appreciate it 

I will be the first to admit that while the original e-collars did their job they, involved much more pain than I would ever be willing to inflict on a dog unless it was a life and death situation and even then I would employ all other tactics I could because I do believe those bordered on the line of brutality. But as any useful tool I believe they have evolved and changed to become a tool that is amazing in it's diversity and usefulness.

Yes, an e-collar can be abused, as can any tool. A crate, a knife, a car, a gun, rope etc are all tools that can be misused . A flat buckle collar can be abused and in my opinion is abused more often than a shock collar. But while they have the potential to be abused they also have the potential to be useful and effective.

You still did not say that you have ever seen, felt or used one properly and because of that I still do not believe you are in the position to declare them useless and always abusive, cruel and ineffective. While I respect and applaud your work with dogs I still do not believe that means you understand an e-collar without hands on experience with one, and again I mean a new high quality ones in the hands of an experienced handler using it correctly. I have seen the aftermath of a horrible car accident. Does not mean that I believe cars should be banned

The word "shock", while accurate, is misleading. The amount of shock that the dog feels is the equivalent to a itch, bug bite, tickle. Enough to make it slightly unpleasant or bothersome and have a noticeable change when turned off.

I would really like to dispel the myth that training with an e-collar is "easy" or "lazy" . If you do it right it requires A LOT of time, energy and dedication to do it well. You need as good if not better reflexes than with a marker and you need to know your dog and be willing to put in many hours to get your dog completely reliable and proficient without the e-collar just as with any form of training.. Training a dog is not easy no matter what technique you use. The only easy way to train is to not.

Since you say you've been following them since the beginning you probably already know how a good e-collar trainer (at least to my expectations) starts a dog off on one. But I believe many on this thread are ignorant of it and I feel the need to share.

First you take the dog to a low/no distraction location and allow him to relax. Once completely relaxed you turn the device to the lowest setting possible and "shock" them. Typically on the lowest setting they can't even feel it. Then you turn it up to the next setting. You continue doing that until you get a reaction. You are looking for an ear twitch, blink, skin jump, slight movement to the side, looking at the spot where they felt the sensation. You want the lowest setting possible with the least amount of reaction. Training a dog using straight out pain is counter productive. The dog can't focus on the task.

To assume that the basis behind the e-collar is simply to compel the dog into behaving instantly is to do our dogs a serious discredit. They are not machines, and they are not run simply reinforcement and punishment. Yes, that is a major part of their world, but as Roger Hild (http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti...te_collar.html) observed in one of his articles, they are perfectly capable of learning the language of the collar and "getting the game."

Is a training session stressful? Yes, probably. But the same way a good session with a marker and treats is stressful. Stress is not a bad thing, it just is.

I don't have a problem with trainers that don't use an e-collar, I have a problem with those who condemn them and the people who use them. Just because you have decided "there is a need nor a place in the world of training for shock collars to be used on any dog in any situation" doesn't mean others haven't decided the exact opposite thing and I believe it does a great disservice to them and their dogs to take that choice away from them.

I dislike haltis. I find the majority of people abuse them, use them wrong and do not understand them. I think the majority of dogs would be much better off without them. BUT I have seem them used well and used one myself. I have seen situations where one would be a good tool to employ; even if they are rare and far in between. But I do not presume I have the right to tell others that they are not allowed to use one.

There is no always in training, there is no never in training, there are no absolutes in training. I have never thought that every single "problem" dog needs a shock collar to be helped, it depends on the dog and the trainer. Some dogs it is one of the only tools that will work to the correct effectiveness and reliability. Others is a great tool that isn't needed but works wonders.

Whatever the use, I want to be free to use the collar should I choose. I don't want anybody telling me what training aids I can and can't use on my dog. Ultimately, that's what's important here.

On another note, my plan is to one day adopt a deaf dog and work with it. I think it would be a very fun, challenging and rewarding experience. Do you use a vibrating collar? Lights? Or primarily hand signals?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> On another note, my plan is to one day adopt a deaf dog and work with it. I think it would be a very fun, challenging and rewarding experience. Do you use a vibrating collar? Lights? Or primarily hand signals?




I actually did train a client with a deaf dalmatian many years ago (or so it seems!). We taught the dog that his owner was a tad unpredictable, that she would suddenly stop or walk the other way or even hide!  (We used a long line for the initial training) Everytime the dog came bounding over to find her, he got loads of praise and happy face and hand signals. He also sometimes got a treat and sometimes got a toy. He never knew which.  He learned to keep an eye on his owner and frequently look back at her by using this mehod and his owner could call him back when he did so. She never expected the impossible though and only walked him where it was safe for him to run free. He also learned to sit, down, stay and walk nicely usinf praice via facial expressions and of course, a surprise reward of either play, treat or toy. It was indeed rewarding to help with this dog and his owner, especially as she was literally tearing her hair out when I first met her. She had already tried a local 'old school' trainer who was very dominance orientated and had a bad experience.

Help with training your deaf dog from Barry Eaton can help you more with ideas. Barry is an expert where deaf dog training is concerned.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

ChickneSholay said:


> On another note, my plan is to one day adopt a deaf dog and work with it. I think it would be a very fun, challenging and rewarding experience. Do you use a vibrating collar? Lights? Or primarily hand signals?


Apologies for being in a rush so will respond to this in particular for now and the rest of your post later on :smilewinkgrin:

With my own deaf dogs [ four currently, more before them ], I use visual cues, not just hand signals though as every movement from head to toe and all manner of facial expressions can be utilised for a deaf dog to `read`. Though vibration collars are not something my own crew have ever particularly benefited from compared to visual methods, [ the most recent vibrating collar I tried out was for my youngest deaf girl, that collar is now being tried by a friend for her deaf dog as of a couple of days ago, it terrified my little girl whom I was trying it for, the slightest vibration put her in a blind panic ], it does`nt mean it would`nt work well for other deaf dogs, it`s one of those things which either works well or not at all from dog to dog. 
For me, body language for deaf dogs is basically my `second language` because of having deaf dogs for so long - to the point of my hearing Lurcher`s training being done silent as I kept forgetting to speak cues to him :laugh: 
I don`t personally advocate vibrating collar use on deaf dogs for out door recall as there is too much risk of it failing, if the remote failed or the batteries went then recall relying on it would be lost altogether, [ subtle hint of the same being applicable to shock users....], deaf dog recall should in my experience, [ and yep, decades of it, day in, day out, because I keep adopting deaf dogs as well as working with other owners of them :wink5: ], be through visuals training for the dogs to learn `checking back`.

It would perhaps be better to start a separate thread on deaf dog training though so as not to be lost or too off topic for this thread, [ don`t take that the wrong way, it`s not meant as a negative comment in any way ].

What I will say on this thread which is something for shock collar users to consider is that shocking a deaf dog is *horrendously* traumatic, therefore alternatives are *absolutely* necessary, and as deaf dog training needs to be hands off [ ie not pushing the rump down for a Sit ], and voice obviously does`nt work, it shows how much can be achieved with visuals only, so if deaf dog handlers can get there without causing pain nor using shock collars and not using voice of any tome then they are not needed for hearing dogs either, at least 80% of a hearing dogs communication availability is visual but most [ not all ] owners of hearing dogs use voice and many use physical touch, including in all too many cases, pain either directly or remotely. 
If more owners of hearing dogs trained without sound or touch they would be amazed at how much easier their dogs can learn as visual is the primary mode, and especially something as basic as : instead of shouting or otherwise loud voice try a whisper instead - it`s far more effective for teaching general training, agility, tricks, HTM etc etc etc.

One friend with a deaf dog who was referred to me for help does use a blue light torch to train her lad, she uses it as a replacement for an audible clicker, and has done far more with him that way than most people can do with their hearing dogs, mainly because without him being able to hear sound there is less distraction, [ as is the case for all deaf dogs ], he now competes in Agility, recently took First place his first time out at a HTM competition, and came second in the Obedience comp at the same show - he was a severe abuse case, she adopted him from the rescue where he had been kennelled for most of his life, [ he was over 2 years old when she adopted him ], he had *severe* human and dog aggression issues due to abuse and no canine socialisation, and was muzzled the whole time he was in rescue due to the severity of his aggression. 
He is a Staffy x
He is her first ever dog.
*No* pain or punitive methods have been used on him since she adopted him, to have done so would have escalated his issues and he would probably have been destroyed as a result. 
If a dog like him can come so far without being shocked, because of gentle patient training getting the job done, well, `nuff said :wink5:


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Help with training your deaf dog from Barry Eaton can help you more with ideas. Barry is an expert where deaf dog training is concerned.




He is a lovely bloke, though he get`s highly embarrassed when told so :laugh:
He has photo`s of my oldest lad doing Agility which he asked me for, to use whenever he does seminars, at the time he asked for them, my lad, [ now aged 15 ], and one other deaf dog were the only ones in the South on the Agility competition circuit, but thanks to people like Barry a lot more people in competitive hobbies give deaf dogs a chance where before they were ignored through assumptions that they would be too difficult to train and live with, I have a lot of respect for Barry and a lot of deaf dogs have him to thank for him leading the way in dispelling so many myths about canine deafness :smilewinkgrin:


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

Closed For Moderating.. If i decide its worth it


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