# Kitten Deposit Problem



## Jimjamming (May 9, 2016)

Hi everyone. First post, and unfortunately a bit of a problem, which I'm looking for some advice with.

In February of this year we paid £100 to a breeder of Siberian kittens, in order to reserve a kitten in a litter which was due to be ready at the end of May. In her advert, on Pets4Homes, she stated that after reservation, we would receive regular updates on the kittens once they were born, which was expected shortly. 

After a while, we realised that we hadn't heard anything, so we messaged to find out an update, and we were told that the cat had absorbed the litter. Obviously, we know that this can happen, and we weren't initially too concerned, as we were in no hurry. After this, however, she started trying to see if we were interested in other breeds, rather than Siberians, which concerned us slightly, as we'd paid for a specific type of cat. She assured us that there were other queens pregnant, but the date for this was to be collected in June.

Yet again, however, we heard nothing further until we asked on an update. This was some 3-4 months after we had given her £100 on promise of a Siberian kitten. On asking, we found out that of the litter which had been due, only one had survived, and it wasn't in the best of health. She told us again that more queens were pregnant, but again was very vague with a date.

At this point, with having had very little information about the cats, and only getting that scarce information when we had pestered her, we decided that enough was enough and politely asked for her to return our deposit, as we had become disillusioned with the process and felt that as we had paid money for a kitten in February and still had no sign of said kitten even being born, we had reasonable cause to have our money returned to us.

At this point, she told us that the deposit was non-refundable and that we would not be getting it back. We are very upset with this, as we have paid money for a kitten that as yet does not exist, with no evidence that a queen is even pregnant. We paid the deposit under good faith that a kitten was, or would soon be, available for us. We wonder, if there is no kitten, then for what reason could she need our deposit? Further to this, we felt as though the promised updates had not been forthcoming, especially as we had to initiate any contact.

We spoke to a breeder friend of ours, from whom we've had two Ragdolls, and he said that we could threaten to take her to small claims court, as she had not kept her end of the deal when she was unable to provide us with what we paid for. I don't want to have to go through that kind of procedure, but we wanted to get some other advice and see what the consensus was. We have looked up her name, and apparently she is well thought of...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I think this shows the danger of paying money without there actually being any kittens. 

I agree with your breeder friend that the small claims court is probably the only say you might see you money back. Keep any emails you have, keep a copy of her advert, keep anything you have recording contact with her.

If the worst comes to the worst, £100 isn't a huge amount to lose but boy does it hurt.

Not sure where you have been looking that suggests she has a good name.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

A good name with whom and for what? Do you have full contact details with a verified address? How did you pay this deposit?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd have to echo what's written above. The idea that she's taking deposits on unborn kittens would be enough for me to be running the other way, with all alarm bells clanging loudly! Unfortunately as you've discovered, breeders cannot guarantee how many kittens a queen will have, or even whether kittens born viable will survive long enough to be rehomed! This is why most good breeders will not take deposits until kittens can be viewed, or even no deposits at all! When you take a deposit, you enter into a contract with the payee that you will provide the goods paid for. How did she know you were a good home for her kitten without first meeting you or having extensive telephone conversations? How did she know that any kittens born would be what you were looking for, both in personality and colour?

I would write her a formal letter stating that she has not kept her end of the contract, and formally request your deposit is returned. I would mention that if it is not, you will be seeking legal advice and lodging a court claim. Give her a definite period by which a response is needed. Post it at the post office and send it recorded so that you have proof it was delivered. Do not talk to her on the phone, have everything in writing from now on.

To be honest with you, I very much doubt she's going to give you your money back without a fight, and you may have to write it off.

Out of interest, where did you discover that she had a good name? As far as I know, there are no definitive resources listing good and bad breeders, or even a page for breeder reviews, although I guess there should be after reading things like this!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

However unjust it may seem, if the receipt for the deposit states that the £100 is non-returnable, I don't think you will have much joy in a small claims court. If it says you will receive a refund if the kitten does not materialise, go for it.


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## Jimjamming (May 9, 2016)

Apparently she was one of the first people to bring the breed to the UK, and is a leading member of the siberian cat club. We were very encouraged by this initially, but we have been nothing but disillusioned since. Obviously £100 isn't going to break the bank, but we don't feel as though we've been treated well. We would not have had any issues if we had been kept in the loop with everything, but at this stage we're feeling let down by the process. We do have full contact details, which do tie in with those on her website. I checked as I was thinking that perhaps someone had just taken the name in order to pull a fast one. We paid the deposit by bank transfer.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_However unjust it may seem, if the receipt for the deposit states that the £100 is non-returnable, I don't think you will have much joy in a small claims court._

I disagree. A deposit cannot be kept if the holder cannot supply the goods within a reasonable timeframe. I think you would stand a very good chance in court as there is evidence it was taken in contemplation of a particular litter expected at a stated time.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Apparently she was one of the first people to bring the breed to the UK, and is a leading member of the siberian cat club._
Well your first step should be a formal complaint to the secretary of the club then. Have you checked she's a current member?


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## Jimjamming (May 9, 2016)

carly87 said:


> I'd have to echo what's written above. The idea that she's taking deposits on unborn kittens would be enough for me to be running the other way, with all alarm bells clanging loudly! Unfortunately as you've discovered, breeders cannot guarantee how many kittens a queen will have, or even whether kittens born viable will survive long enough to be rehomed! This is why most good breeders will not take deposits until kittens can be viewed, or even no deposits at all! When you take a deposit, you enter into a contract with the payee that you will provide the goods paid for. How did she know you were a good home for her kitten without first meeting you or having extensive telephone conversations? How did she know that any kittens born would be what you were looking for, both in personality and colour?
> 
> I would write her a formal letter stating that she has not kept her end of the contract, and formally request your deposit is returned. I would mention that if it is not, you will be seeking legal advice and lodging a court claim. Give her a definite period by which a response is needed. Post it at the post office and send it recorded so that you have proof it was delivered. Do not talk to her on the phone, have everything in writing from now on.
> 
> ...


We absolutely understand that breeding is not something which is predictable, and that these things do happen, but when we have been left uninformed until asking, and offered no further reassurance, it has been a bit of a worried. We initially said that we didn't mind waiting a short while, as we were due to move home, but the fact that we didn't hear anything was what concerned us the most.

She did have a phone conversation right at the very start of the process, where she asked about our home and what colour etc. our preference would be, which again we took to be a good sign, but since then, very little.


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## Jimjamming (May 9, 2016)

havoc said:


> _Apparently she was one of the first people to bring the breed to the UK, and is a leading member of the siberian cat club._
> Well your first step should be a formal complaint to the secretary of the club then. Have you checked she's a current member?


I have looked at one of their recent newsletters, on which she has a prominent piece. We are not under any impression that she is a bad breeder, as evidently she is experienced etc. but we wonder whether perhaps she is just not good on communication? Even so, now 4 months down the line, we know no more than we did when we exchanged money.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

In order to keep your deposit the breeder will have to show that they are out of pocket for exactly the £100 they think they're going to keep. I know breeders say deposits are non-refundable and they get away with it when nobody calls them to account but it's a very dodgy practice and wouldn't hold up in most cases. In this particular instance it's beyond dodgy to take a deposit for something which doesn't even exist.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If the deposit was paid by bank transfer, what written agreement did you have with the breeder?


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## Jimjamming (May 9, 2016)

QOTN said:


> If the deposit was paid by bank transfer, what written agreement did you have with the breeder?


I would have to ask my partner about this, but as far as I'm aware we had no written agreement. We responded to the ad on Pets4Homes, and went from there. It was my partner that dealt with it though, so on that side of things I'm not 100%


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Obviously £100 isn't going to break the bank, but we don't feel as though we've been treated well._
It may not break the bank for you but it is a sign that the breeder is probably sailing very close to the wind financially. Would you really want a kitten from someone who needs to rake in deposits like that and keep the money when they don't even have the likelihood of kittens in the near future? Breeding is a very uncertain business - that's exactly why you should never pay a deposit except to reserve a particular kitten which you've seen and chosen. You don't pay a deposit to DFS because you may buy a sofa from them at sometime if and when they happen to have one you like.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If the advert is still there take a screen shot of it.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I've never heard of anyone taking deposits this way. I have a waiting list of interested people, when I have a litter born safely I contact to say how many girls and boys I have, then again once points show their colour. I wouldn't dream of taking a deposit until the kitten had been viewed, at at least 7 weeks for character to start showing. Then homed after 2 x vaccs and a microchip. I take deposit at first viewing, at point an individual, identified kitten is reserved.


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## pennycat (Jan 5, 2016)

Oh dear. I would suggest a strongly worded letter asking for details of their address "to ensure that your small claims form is served on them." Hopefully that will be enough to get your deposit back... whether you actually want to go through all that over £100 is another matter though


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## pennycat (Jan 5, 2016)

Jimjamming said:


> I would have to ask my partner about this, but as far as I'm aware we had no written agreement. We responded to the ad on Pets4Homes, and went from there. It was my partner that dealt with it though, so on that side of things I'm not 100%


You don't need a formal contract - an email or a text with regard to the £100 deposit is enough.


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