# Late Seasons???



## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

My girl is 7 weeks late in coming into heat. Took her for a check over at vets, who have said if still no season in 4 weeks time that they may induce one???
How exactly do they do this? It's not sitting easy with me and think it could harm her or effect her future cycles.
This would be her 3rd season. Her 1st was the first week in May, 2nd the first week in October so expected her to come in again the first week in March.
She is 17 months old and has been swelling and going down since the last week in February 

Any one with any info or advice please?


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't really know anything about it, I presume because of the section you are posting in you want to breed from her. I haev no idea they could do that let alone what effect it might have on the breeding process/cycle 

But all I can say is our little one took ages for her second season, she was swelling and going down again over a few weeks, we took her to the vets for a general check and the vet thought she was coming in then but it was a good 4 weeks before it actually happened. Not sure if that might re-assure you at all.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`d want a lot more discussion with the vet. She may have had a silent season. She may have a problem. She may be having a phantom pregnancy - or even a real one. 
Has the vet taken bloods and done a scan? Have they examined her? 
I don`t understand their reasoning tbh. 
Some bitches have irregular seasons. And the regularity can be affected by all sorts of things - even by another bitch`s reproductive cycle (and scent). 
Personally, I`d want a health check first - and wait longer if all was clear.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Our girl evened out & is now pretty much yearly seasons, I wouldn't be to hasty.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> My girl is 7 weeks late in coming into heat. Took her for a check over at vets, who have said if still no season in 4 weeks time that they may induce one???
> How exactly do they do this? It's not sitting easy with me and think it could harm her or effect her future cycles.
> This would be her 3rd season. Her 1st was the first week in May, 2nd the first week in October so expected her to come in again the first week in March.
> She is 17 months old and has been swelling and going down since the last week in February
> ...


Only thing I can think of although dont know for sure so you would need to discuss it with him. There are tests that can be done to check female reproductive function.

One is Ovarian tissue and activity. Called an Oestradiol (E2) Test. Its used to detect on set of oestrous and also for ovarian tissue that may be left in error after a spay. If the dog is showing signs of oestrus when the tests done then they just often use a single sample, if its not or its used to detect possible left ovarian tissue then they do a hCG stimulation test. In anoestrus the resting state when season is over, there are undetatable levels of Oestradiol, when in oestrus there are high levels present.
With the hCG test they take a base blood sample to check for precence of Oestradiol (E2) They inject something called Chorulon and then take a sample 1 1/2 to 2 hours later and look for estradiol levels as it causes the ovaries to stimulate Oestradiol.

Chorulon is also used in infertility in dogs and other animals one of its uses is induction of ovulation in bitches. So dont know if thats perhaps what he is planning to use. More on Chorulon.
Chorulon - Overview

Only other possibility I can think of is that Oestradiol (E2) and also progestorone is present in seasons and also rises before Oestrous too, maybe he is considering giving some form of Oestradiol (E2) and or progesterone theraphy perhaps. Dont know for sure just a suggestion.

A progesterone test is also used for Ovulation detection and the best time to do a mating. In bitches in Anoestrous when not in season again there is undetable levels of progestorone, when they come into season progesterone levels rise and they can tell by the levels when is the likely best time for mating to take place. Usually they take samples to identify best time for mating 7 days after bleeding starts.

Bitches can have something called split seasons where they start to have all the appearance of a season but dont actually ovulate go out of season again only to come in again a few weeks dont now if this is a possibility that could be happening with her?

If she doesnt have a season they you really do need to talk to him about what he intends to actually do and how, and if it may have any future implications. As said I could be wrong, as I only know about the female reproduction tests and Chorulon in the use of the tests and other uses in infertility and how pregesterone and oestradiol (E2) plays a part in seasons and ovulation.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes I plan to breed from her. Had all her health tests done and passed with perfect results. Well just one to go now, which I'm waiting for the breed club to get back to me regarding it.
Our vet does have a reproduction specialist (mostly cattle ect he deals with though) Think it would be worth my while getting an appointment to discuss things with him, especially any effects on her. Would rather have a natural season than bring one on if that makes sense.
Vet did say by 18 months old they should be settled into their cycles. 

She is showing signs, picky with food, more affectionate/cuddly, peeing a bit more, some swelling but going down (daily basis) her vulva will twitch sometimes too  and if you stoke just above her tail she lifts it to the right.

Sled dog hotel - I think they will probably do a blood test first to see her levels, if any, thanks for explaining some of the tests. I knew about the progesterone level test, but was unsure if there was a test to see where in her cycle she is such as resting.

She has been fully checked by the vet, temp fine, nice soft tummy, checked for pyo, all clear, no discharge and her normal happy, bubbly self. All in all she is a very happy healthy dog.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> My girl is 7 weeks late in coming into heat. Took her for a check over at vets, who have said if still no season in 4 weeks time that they may induce one???
> How exactly do they do this? It's not sitting easy with me and think it could harm her or effect her future cycles.
> This would be her 3rd season. Her 1st was the first week in May, 2nd the first week in October so expected her to come in again the first week in March.
> She is 17 months old and has been swelling and going down since the last week in February
> ...


Why would the vets want to "induce" a season. There are hormonal therapy ways of bringing on a season - and I have seen light therapy referred to as useful for it - I just fail to understand why anyone would want to 

Intervals between bitches seasons can vary enormously and their cycles can change without any significant reason and no negative impact on their ability to reproduce - something as simple as having a number of entire bitches in the household can result in seasons falling into "synch" - quite handy really if you have entire males as well.

I've had the same bitch go 4.5/5 months to 12 months between seasons - it's never caused a problem - just possibly a bit of a pain in the backside when you are waiting to mate one of them - but you know what they say - "a watched pot never boils" (until you turn your back on it of course) and you could be forgiven sometimes for thinking about bitches and their season intervals.

I've got girls who should be coming into season any time now - but the way they are throwing their coats - I would say we are a good 6 weeks to 2 months away.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I have a bitch who is currently on day 14 of her third season....she went a whopping 22 months between this one and her previous one , she is the last of my breeding line and I was very worried that she would never come in and at 4 years old I did not want to leave it too much longer for her to have her first litter. I was told that Alizan could bring a bitch into season but that it can also affect future cycles , personally I believe that nature knows best .....leave your bitch to come in naturally, if it's meant to be it will happen ...if not then I firmly believe it's Mother Nature telling you that she has a problem and should not be bred from.

I also have a theory that the long cold winter has delayed seasons this year as many other breeders seem to be having this problem of late seasons ...although my bitch was easily the one with the greatest time span between 


I had her Idexx tested yesterday so fingers crossed that she is finally ready and we get a good mating and eventually some beautiful pups .


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bijou said:


> I also have a theory that the long cold winter has delayed seasons this year as many other breeders seem to be having this problem of late seasons ...although my bitch was easily the one with the greatest time span between
> 
> I had her Idexx tested yesterday so fingers crossed that she is finally ready and we get a good mating and eventually some beautiful pups .


Good luck with the litter - hope everything goes to plan.

To the OP - I think you'd better tell your vet that bitches have a tendency NOT to read the textbooks when it comes to anything to do with seasons and matings.

If bitches cycles "settle down" by 18 months, then I'm living in a house of very strange bitches - at least two of mine should be in season by now (one ten, the other 4.5 - they are both dropping their coats like nothing on this earth atm - so I realistically wouldn't expect them to be in season for another two months,

Last time, all the bitches came in at the same time which was very hard work in one way with the boys as they were all "ready for mating" within a few days of each other - but fantastic in another in that we get it all out of the way in one go and then can integrate them all back in with each other.

Having entire dogs and bitches - as far as I'm concerned, the longer my girls go between seasons the better.

One of my girls who typically started off at 11 months between seasons slipped to 7 months, then 5 months like her mother - I was intending to mate her on her last season - but she came in 2 months early, which was rubbish timing for me all round - because I had already promised I would be heavily involved with a friends litter which would have been due around the same time, and also because the dog I wanted to use still had health-tests wandering around the iUS / International mail networks, thus we didn't have the full complement of results to say yes we were able to go ahead.

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I've had friends bitches cycle anything from 7 months to 2 years - and they've produced 1,2,3 litters without any issues at all.

I totally agree with Bijou on this - let mother nature make the decisions - if her season intervals vary so be it - if she is mated and it doesn't happen, or she never comes into season again, then it wasn't meant to be.

I certainly wouldn't be messing around with seasons, because if mum is "meant" to have issues, these issues could quite easily be passed onto the female progeny

Would you be comfortable placing removable breeding endorsements on KC registration papers (subject to them meeting your stipulated criteria) knowing there is a possibility (however remote) that the bitches may never be suitable for mating without medical intervention? I know I certainly wouldn't.


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## Callie (May 6, 2010)

We have been waiting since Jan for Amber to come in but still no sign. She is quite irregular but anything between 9 - 12 months is her normal with A year past in Jan being her last one. 
We have her pup too Izzy who will be 3 next month and she had her last season last August....not sure if going her hols brought this on tho! 

So up shot is they will probably both come in together which causes another problem
This will be Amber's last litter(she has had 1, 3 years ago)so would like to breed from her BUT if Izzy comes in she will be 3 and not yet had her first litter(previous attempt failed)and not sure if it would be ok tyo leave her another year or if 4 is classedas too old for a first time!!!

As you say "awatched kettle never boils"!!!!


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks guys. 
I actually spoke to the reproduction specialist yesterday for about 1 hour! Happily paid for his time and feel so much more relaxed. We are going to wait for her to come in on her own  he did say to let her out in the sun for longer periods? 
He also dismissed everything the previous vet had said.
I think it could be just down to longer winter too.
From what I know her mum was 2-3 months late on her last heat too and her sister has just her her first heat a few months ago.
Our boy is quite interested in her today though constantly sniffing.
I was worried with her peeing more and being a bit sleepy that she had an infection or even pyo, but these have been ruled out now.

Thanks again for all your experiences, good to know that even with a bitch having seasons every 5.5-6 months and then going longer between them is a normal thing


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

I had a yearly bitch go 2 years after a litter, sometimes they do go longer betwen seasons as they get older.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Thanks guys.
> I actually spoke to the reproduction specialist yesterday for about 1 hour! Happily paid for his time and feel so much more relaxed. We are going to wait for her to come in on her own  he did say to let her out in the sun for longer periods?
> 
> He also dismissed everything the previous vet had said


Well he sounds eminently more sensible - although did you get chance to ask him what the "sun" was?   

Going slightly O/T - yesterday I was the "victim" of differences of opinion between members of the human medical profession.

Having done my nurse training, and my daughter, mum, sister and all the other females being nurses and me also having worked in the Pharmaceutical industry - I know a little more than the "average" person about human ailments and medication - that's not being big headed - it's just a fact - and it doesn't always mean that it's advantageous.

But I can say - events of the last few days have left me horribly confused and in more pain than normal as a result. So goodness knows how it would leave a patient without any in depth-knowledge, confused, in pain and quite possibly terrified.

The reason for the above story is this is pretty much what has happened here - the "vet" has given you the benefit of his opinion - the trouble is - he's stated it as "fact" rather than opinion.

The Specialist has also given you their opinion - because again, that's what it predominantly is - but a more constructive, sensible and rational opinion that because he's a specialist - gives you more confidence in what he says.

*PS - if you find that elusive "sun" - I don't suppose you could tip us off could you? *


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I know what you mean Swarthy.

Haha!! Sun! I live in Scotland! Think he was kidding himself on saying sun lol It was here yesterday but very windy and crazy showers too 
Though sun is shining today.....so far


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

So......
Juno had a very light redish/brown discharge on Thursday getting slightly lighter and then stopped on Saturday 
Vulva looks small and not swollen  and no smell.
Split heat maybe?


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