# Judges qualifications



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I need a bit of clarification because I think I may have misunderstood a conversation I had with a fairly senior Judge at Richmond yesterday. I didn't like to go over it again when I didn't understand because I felt a complete idiot for not knowing in the first place. 

We just happened to be sat next to them for the Group Judging and there was a lot of down time and we started talking. Long story short, I explained that as I first timer I was crippled by nerves and someone else handled Mylo at Champs because he is doing really well but I did Opens myself to get experience. I said that he still does really well in Opens in breed classes and nearly always gets BOB but it is more of a lottery whereas his best wins are always from AVNSC which I found really strange. They laughed and said it was because at Opens even I could Judge breed classes as Judges don't need any qualifications and often don't have a clue what they are doing. AVNSC Judges need to award CC's in a breed in that group to be able to Judge at Opens and therefore know much more about conformation and movement and from seeing Mylo he said that he was so good on those points an AVNSC Judge wouldn't be able to ignore that. 

Did I understand that correctly, the bit about breed judges at Opens not needing any form of qualification in judging????


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Can't be bothered to write it all out again.  So please forgive me for reproducing part of my (forthcoming) book. Hope this helps?

I think the most important point is that judges cannot advertise themselves, and need to be invited to judge. Obviously up to the committee running the show, but I would have thought that in order to attract entries, they would go for an knowlegdable person who has a good reputation in the field.

_'A judge is appointed on his in-depth knowledge of the breed. He will normally be a standing member of the appropriate breed clubs, be an experienced (and successful) exhibitor/handler of the breed with at least five years' experience, and generally a breeder who has himself produced winning dogs. He will also have a deep interest and detailed knowledge of the various bloodlines within the particular breed.

As well as being involved in exhibiting, a potential judge will probably have spent time in the ring as a steward, and may have participated in ringcraft training. Many judges start judging at Match Nights, and at Companion Shows run by their local canine society. Judges should also have attended the Kennel Club's Judges' Training Programme, as well as breed seminars.

Judges cannot advertise their availability; instead they must be invited to judge a particular show. Their first formal judging appointment will be an Open Show and will normally be to judge a breed that has up to 3 classes (e.g. Junior, Post Graduate and Open) unless their breed is in Stud Book Band E. This band normally attracts a higher entry, so new judges can judge up to 5 classes.

Judges, for Open and Limited Shows (and at Championship Shows where Challenge Certificates are not available for that breed), do not have to be approved by the Kennel Club, but they have to be on the Breed Judging Lists. Each Breed Club will keep judging lists A - C which comprise of Breed and Non-Breed Specialists depending on their level of experience.

For Championship Shows, to award Challenge Certificates, judges have to be approved by the Kennel Club and for this they require one year's notice before the show. The appointment of judges is taken very seriously. There are currently over 10,000 approved judges in the UK.

Championship Show judges will either be a Breed Specialist, or a Non Breed Specialist if they are to award Challenge Certificates. To be a Breed Specialist a judge needs at least 7 years judging experience in that breed, must have attended mandatory seminars and have successfully passed assessments. The subjects studied include Conformation and Movement, Breed specific judging, Kennel Club Regulations and Judging procedures. Except under exceptional circumstances they also need to have owned at least 3 dogs who have gained their Stud Book Number, and have acted as a Steward at shows for a minimum of 12 days. After they have awarded Challenge Certificates in one breed, if they have 5 years' experience of judging another breed, they can become a non-breed specialist.'_


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Those judges that have been giving tickets for many years did not have to go down the route they have to now, unless I suppose they want to give them in a new (for them) breed. They had only to have judged x number of dogs at Open shows and have had the required number of years (forgive me I don't know the finer details) judging experience at that level. 

Some of the best judges (and the worst I daresay!) came up that way. They certainly did not have to fulfil the criteria that they do now. It depends on your point of view, perhaps, whether folk should be "qualified" to give ccs without jumping through the hoops. At the end of the day you either have an eye for a good dog or you don't. No amount of seminars, stewarding etc will give you that, it can't be taught. Judging boils down to a matter of opinion and if you don't respect any particular judge's then you don't give them an entry again.

Unfortunately, as I have said before elsewhere, if we don't support the Open shows those aspiring judges will not be able to learn the trade as it were, so where will the new judges for our champ shows come from?


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

BessieDog said:


> Except under exceptional circumstances they also need to have owned at least 3 dogs who have gained their Stud Book Number.


That's quite interesting, I didn't know that!



> After they have awarded Challenge Certificates in one breed, if they have 5 years experience of judging another breed, they can become a non-breed specialist.'[/I]


I wonder why it is we always seem to do better under non breed specialists than ES specialist judges. Lots of people yesterday were complaining about ticket swapping, so maybe that's a part of it?


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you bessiedog (my likes/thanks aren't working again but will try later)

Looks like your book needs to be published asap !!!!!! because it will probably answer any question I come up with.

I always thought you would have had to take exams to Judge, just proves how little I know. I suppose I thought it worked in the same way as other things in life where you have a formal test of your competence in a certain area and then a piece of paper to say you have passed it. Thinking about it, I suppose there are actually lots of things where experience IS the test of whether you are 'qualified' to make a judgement on something or someone but my own personal experience has always involved written exams so my mind associates qualifications on a more formal basis. Never too late to learn ....lol xxx


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

I have to say, Emmastace, that some judges need to have a qualification in basic English when you read some critiques!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

With Champ shows I am happy whatever the Judges decision. I am getting a feel now for which Judges like my type of dog and which ones probably won't. This year I have entered within a geographic area whatever chances we have just to get Mylo used to it. I like so many people and so many dogs in the breed that I am usually really happy for whoever gets the top wins because after all we are all their for the same thing and everyone deserves their day. 
I am planning on being more discerning next year and just enter him where he has a chance from a purely financial point of view.

There does seem to be an element of CC swapping in my breed but not much. I feel it is mostly fair anyway. Even if it does appear to be a bit facey on occasion I console myself with that cos it means I have the wrong face not the wrong dog ....lol.

With Opens I enter every one I can within a two hour drive. This is for experience for me and Mylo and because I think they need supporting. Strangely enough I worry more about results in Opens. Is that because I am doing it myself? The only thing that would stop me entering opens is if we were consistantly ditched and again it would be a financial decision xxx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I've been showing for two years now, and have been to many, many shows, Opens, breed show (Open and Champ) and General Champ shows but have never once showed under the same judge twice. I think, in my breed at least, you'd have to be around a long time to be able to pick and choose which judges you show under.


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

I do do some picking (just for champ shows) based on whether the judge seems to have historically placed blues over oranges or dark over light dogs, as both of those will count against us. It can take a bit of research and digging around to find out, but it's a nice way to spend an evening. On the other hand, some shows I go to just because I like the venue.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I would think twice about Richmond again unless it was a great Judge. £10 for the car park and £ 6.80 for a bacon sandwich and cup of coffee !!!!!!!!. Normally I wouldn't notice but as it is close to where I used to live my family and a couple of friends came to see the boy in two cars. Just for them to get in and have a bite to eat for breakfast good old Mum ended up spending £ 67.80. I don't think other venues have been quite that steep.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> I would think twice about Richmond again unless it was a great Judge. £10 for the car park and £ 6.80 for a bacon sandwich and cup of coffee !!!!!!!!. Normally I wouldn't notice but as it is close to where I used to live my family and a couple of friends came to see the boy in two cars. Just for them to get in and have a bite to eat for breakfast good old Mum ended up spending £ 67.80. I don't think other venues have been quite that steep.


Car park was £3 if paid in advance with entry fee.  But the bacon roll was steep I agree, and not that nice either!


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

We always take our own food. Even if you buy a sandwich from Tesco/Sainsbury/M & S and bring other bits and pieces with you, you save a fortune. We never buy food at Ch shows. Even a cup of tea/coffee is expensive, but we do indulge ourselves there! I don't even buy a catalogue now.

I think the car park prices were increased to compensate for dropping the public admission charge to allow docked dogs to be shown. So some of us here are to blame :blushing: I'm afraid. (slinks away).....


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> Car park was £3 if paid in advance with entry fee.  But the bacon roll was steep I agree, and not that nice either!


I paid for my car when I booked, it was the lot that came to see us that paid the on the day price.

Yes Pickle I should really shut up about that......but it hasn't been that much at other shows on the day. I think the last one, possibly Bournemouth, was a fiver.

I have stopped buying catalogues and have felt a bit lost without one the last couple of show. Someone told me that at some shows they let you buy just the page you need for £1. They send it to you by email. I have never seen that though x


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I have only been showing since 1993, although very sporadically.

There are hoops you must jump through before you can award CCs  now you must attend

Ring Stewarding Seminar
Points of the Dog (there is an exam)
Conformation and Movement
Requirements of a Dog Show Judge (there is an exam)
Specialist breed seminar

You are also expected to fulfil 12 days of stewarding

in addition you will be assessed.

Also, if you are already a judge who awards CCs and have made a "mistake" in the ring you are sent to one or more of the above (like a speed cliinic) 

You may find the following link of interest

Aspiring to Judge at CC level â€¢ The Kennel Club

Also a book already exists regarding the qualifications required for judging at breed shows, it is called the Kennel Club Rules and Regulations and comes out yearly but you can download the F regulations for free.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*21. Judges and Judging.[/B

]a. Not more than three Judges shall be appointed to adjudicate for any
award.
b. General Canine Society Championship and Open Shows - Affiliated Societies
and Breed Club Open Shows.
(1) For non Challenge Certificate breeds at Championship Shows and
for General Canine Society Open Shows, Affiliated Organisations
Open shows and Breed Club Open Shows scheduling more than
three breed classes for a particular breed (five classes for Stud
Book Band E breeds), the selected Judge must, when appointed by
the Club/Society, either:
(a) Have previously been approved to award Challenge
Certificates to the relevant breed and not have been declared
ineligible to do so by the time of carrying out the
appointment or
(b) Be included on a Breed Council/Club B judges list or above.
In the latter case before accepting such an appointment, the
selected Judge must ensure that their name is included on a
relevant Breed Council/Club judges list. Except:-
(i) Judges resident in Northern Ireland. Persons who are
approved to award Green Stars under Irish Kennel
18
F(1)
Club Rules and are resident in Northern Ireland are
permitted to judge the above mentioned classes at
Kennel Club licensed Championship and Open Shows
held in Northern Ireland without being included on a
Breed Council/Club judges list.
(ii) Overseas Judges. For non Challenge Certificate breeds
at Championship Shows and for General Canine
Society Open Shows, Affiliated Organisations Open
Shows and Breed Club Open Shows the organising
Club/Society must ensure that any overseas Judge
appointed to judge more than three breed classes (five
classes for Stud Book Band E breeds) has been
approved to judge the breed concerned at
Championship level in the country in which they are
domiciled, or are on a Kennel Club registered Breed
Club/Council B list or above for the breed concerned.
(2) General Canine Society Open Shows and Affiliated Organisation
Open Shows only. Persons appointed to judge Best in Show, Best
in Group, Best Puppy in Group and/or Variety Classes must have
previously been approved to award and have awarded Challenge
Certificates to at least one breed, and be currently eligible to do so.
Classes for varieties of a breed and handling classes are exempt
from this Regulation.
c. If more than one Judge is appointed for any form of competition, a
further Judge must be appointed to act as Referee and the name
published in the Schedule. However, at a Single Breed Championship
Show, wheremore than one judge is appointed, the societymay appoint
a Best in Show Judge instead of a Referee, whose name must be
published in the schedule.
d. In the event of a Judge being unable to complete all allotted judging, a
substitute Judge must be appointed to complete the judging.
e. Judgesmay not exhibit a dog for competition or handle a dog in the ring
at a Show at which they are officiating (vide Regulation F(1)30.(9)).
f. The judging of breeds in which Challenge Certificates are offered must
have priority over all other breeds and classes.
g. The numbering of the classes in the judging bookmust followthat of the
Schedule and Judgesmust judge the classes in each breed in the order in
which they are entered in the judging book.
h. Each Judge must be provided with a judging book which must have:
(1) Detachable slips for each class and award for use on the award
board and in the Secretary's office.
(2) On the portion of the book which is retained by the Judge, the
exhibit numbers of the dogs entered in each class and space for
recording the numbers of the exhibits gaining awards.
(3) Championship Shows-
Slips for the Best of Sex, Reserve Best of Sex and Best of Breed.
(4) Championship Shows-
The notice regarding the awarding of Challenge Certificates, obtainable
from the Kennel Club.
F(1)
19
i. When a breed is to be judged in a ring other than that intimated in the
Catalogue, a notice of the change must be prominently posted in the
original ring.
j. If a society/club and/or judge wish to weigh Miniature Dachshunds at
a show the intention to do so must be clearly stated in the show
schedule, and a certified weighing machine must be provided. The
intention to weigh must be agreed in writing between the judge and the
society/club in good time prior to the show and on the day of the show
each new dog must be weighed by the judge or with the judge
observing.
k. In all classeswhere competition is subject to a height orweight limit, the
decision of the Judge in case of dispute shall be final.
l. A Judge's awards shall be final except in the case of fraud or
misrepresentation or where a bona fide mistake has been made by the
Judge. No alteration of the awards may be made after the date of the
Show without specific permission of the Kennel Club.
m. An award may be withheld if in the opinion of the Judge there is lack of
sufficient merit. The Judge must mark on the judging slips that the
award has been so withheld. The Judge is not entitled to withhold an
award for any other reason.When a Judge withholds a Third award for
want of merit, the subsequent awards in that class must also be
withheld.
Judges may exclude any dog from the ring if it is considered not in a fit
state for exhibition owing to savage disposition or suffering from any
visible condition which adversely affects its health or welfare and the
exclusion must be reported immediately by the judge/steward to the
Show Secretary. The judge's decision is final and the dog shall be
excluded from all subsequent competition at the Show. The judge must
make a report to the Show Secretary at the first opportunity after the
Show.
o. Where a dog has been withdrawn at the request or suggestion of the
judge, the judge must make a report to the Show Secretary at the first
opportunity at the Show. The Secretary must forward these details to
the Kennel Club within 7 days of the close of the show.
p. Judges who consider there has been a breach of Annex B to these
Regulationsmay call for an examination at the Show and shallmark the
awards accordingly.
q. At any level of competition there must be no placing in reverse order.
The Judge must place the dogs to be given awards in the centre of the
ring in descending order from the Judge's left to right and must then
mark and sign the Judge's Book.
r. AJudge must initial any alteration made and endorse upon the Judging
Book, slips, letter and any other relevant document, the time and date of
making the alteration.
s. Where applicable, the Judge must mark in the Judging Book the dogs
declared to be the Best of each Sex, Best of Breed and Best Any Variety
Not Separately Classified and Best Puppy in Breed and BestAny Variety
Not Separately Classified Puppy andmust complete and sign the award
cards.
20
F(1)
t. Judges are not permitted to make any oral commentary on the dogs
until after the conclusion of all their judging.Any public commentary at
a Show must not include mention of a dog's name or reference to
previous awards.
u Equal awards are prohibited.
v. The Committee shall have the power to grant, withhold, suspend or
cancel the appointment of any Judge.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/49543/show_regs_2014.pdf*


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

You can always ask if you can "buy" your breed pages in the catalogues from someone with a different breed for a pound or two. Lots of people do that, but if you're lucky and you have a friend in another breed they might be kind enough to give you your pages.

We will all have to come up with money saving tips for dog shows. Piggy back rides to save petrol? :biggrin:

Open show judges have to work their way up to increase the number of classes they can judge, breed clubs keep lists. So that's why some can only do 3 classes, others 4 or 5. To judge groups and A.V.N.S.C classes the judge has to be passed to award CCs, not exactly sure of the criteria for B.I.S. judges at Open shows, obviously must give CCs.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Did I understand that correctly, the bit about breed judges at Opens not needing any form of qualification in judging????


It's not as simple as that - it almost sounds like you could pull anyone off the street to judge

Most judges generally start off in their own breed at open level and many may have judged at Companion level prior to that (some continue to do so) - they are likely to be showing one or more breeds and have done so for a while.

Many judges will attend a breed specific seminar and also a general conformation and movement seminar prior to starting judging - they are also likely to have taken and passed what is now the "50 points of the dog" assessment. They may also have attended other seminars such as "requirements of a dog show judge".

Early judging appointments will almost inevitably be in their own breed and possibly numerically smaller breeds within their group.

AV, AVNSC and Group judging at Open show level can only be done by judges permitted to issue CC's in at least one breed. So judges will have been exhibiting and showing for around 7+ years - during which time they are likely to have gone hands on with a lot of different breeds.

To judge three classes of a breed, you don't need to have any specific hands on knowledge of that breed - although some societies require C list membership to do 3 breed specific classes (5 for stud book band E) at open shows - even if they are not on the list - it's highly unlikely their name will have been plucked out of thin air.

=============================

You would hope if someone is invited to judge outside their own breed, they would study the breed standard(s) and research them - study different types within the breed - know how the dogs should be stood (free standing / stacked etc) - any anomalies from the "norm" in terms of movement, top-line & tailset outline, front and rear angulation, correct bite etc

The 50 points of the dog are exactly what they say - a "generic dog" - useful for interpreting breed standards

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/100939/sr12_training_board_-_points_of_the_dog_assessment.pdf

You can usually spot movement problems, glaring health issues, bad teeth, bad skin and coat etc etc - some things might be able to be masked by a good handler, but many other things won't

One of mine has spent the last several months looking like a scrap yard dog after his near brush with death just after Crufts and only now starting to look respectable again.

---------------------------
Judging should be objective, but an element of subjectivity is almost unavoidable.

Increasingly at Open shows we are seeing long standing esteemed international ticket judges judging all breeds within a group and the group(s).

As an example, a society might offer a judge to do all gundogs apart from their own breed(s), and / or possibly numerically large breeds where a C list judge may attract a larger entry - you quite often see it in Labs / Goldies / Cockers

So some of what was said to you is un-necessary and more often than not, incorrect


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> With Champ shows I am happy whatever the Judges decision. I am getting a feel now for which Judges like my type of dog and which ones probably won't. This year I have entered within a geographic area whatever chances we have just to get Mylo used to it. I like so many people and so many dogs in the breed that I am usually really happy for whoever gets the top wins because after all we are all their for the same thing and everyone deserves their day.
> I am planning on being more discerning next year and just enter him where he has a chance from a purely financial point of view.
> 
> There does seem to be an element of CC swapping in my breed but not much. I feel it is mostly fair anyway. Even if it does appear to be a bit facey on occasion I console myself with that cos it means I have the wrong face not the wrong dog ....lol.
> ...


It sounds as if you are doing much the same as I am, doing the rounds with a clearer view to what and where you will be going next year and to what finances will allow. I have to say I felt like giving up after the Richmond fiasco but I stand to fight another day. I find the whole thing exhausting at times. I also have someone that keeps trying to latch on to me and while I appreciate having someone to share the petrol I don't want to feel that I have to take them every show I go to. They offered to come with me on Sunday just to keep me company and I had to tell them that I am totally fine with my own company, sometimes driving is the only time I get to think without someone interrupting my thoughts.


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