# Ideal amount of calcium/phosphorus?



## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Hi can anyone explain to me what is the ideal amount of calcium and phosphorus per kg of body weight? I am still researching home cooked. I think i will go with Dr strombecks recipes but im finding the c/p amount and ratio confusing. I will be using bone meal to give my dog her calcium/phosphorus. Any advice appreciated.


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## SueBoo (Apr 24, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Hi can anyone explain to me what is the ideal amount of calcium and phosphorus per kg of body weight? I am still researching home cooked. I think i will go with Dr strombecks recipes but im finding the c/p amount and ratio confusing. I will be using bone meal to give my dog her calcium/phosphorus. Any advice appreciated.


I personally worry more about feeding a varied diet, which isn't highly processed (like kibble) of great quality ingredients. Of course you want to be trying to create a balanced diet through the meals you feed over the course of a week, but I don't buy into the idea of a prescription diet or think of it as an exact science, presumably as you are looking at the option of home cooking you have realised as much yourself, after all that's not how we treat or own diets is it. 

PS - If you are really desperate for some figures you can find them here. They also go to show the nonsense of puppy/adult and breed specific foods as the requirements to be able to call your food Puppy are just a bit more protein and calories, not the magic formula Hills and Royal Canin would have you believe.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Tend to agree that you cannot simply pluck figures out of the air. The nutritional guidelines have things like minimums, rarely maximums and in the case of calcium/phosphorous also a ratio. To save a bit more searching on the site shown, Nutrition | FEDIAF has a direct link to the profile in question.

These nutritional profiles are based however on processed, heat treated food. What effect does the zinc content have on the calcium level as they do interact with one another? Phytates in some vegetation can bind zinc, calcium, iron, and magnesium and make those critical minerals less available to the body. How do you take this into account in the profile as well as many more questions when you start looking at things in detail. In fact for every question answered you are probably going to come across several more questions.

In your situation I could see myself simply trying to give approx 10% bone meal.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Tend to agree that you cannot simply pluck figures out of the air. The nutritional guidelines have things like minimums, rarely maximums and in the case of calcium/phosphorous also a ratio. To save a bit more searching on the site shown, Nutrition | FEDIAF has a direct link to the profile in question.
> 
> These nutritional profiles are based however on processed, heat treated food. What effect does the zinc content have on the calcium level as they do interact with one another? Phytates in some vegetation can bind zinc, calcium, iron, and magnesium and make those critical minerals less available to the body. How do you take this into account in the profile as well as many more questions when you start looking at things in detail. In fact for every question answered you are probably going to come across several more questions.
> 
> In your situation I could see myself simply trying to give approx 10% bone meal.


Good link really useful.
10% bonemeal? Dr Shrombeck says 1/2 a teaspoon in his recipe. Im thinking you must mean actual bones? You can buy bone meal in a powder which is just ground cattle bone. I am confused however because the brand he uses `Kal` have changed ratios and cant find out what ratio his recipes use. There is one on zooplus which is cheaper which has a ratio of 2:3 phosphurus:calcium. I wonder if you could shed some light on it?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

SueBoo said:


> I personally worry more about feeding a varied diet, which isn't highly processed (like kibble) of great quality ingredients. Of course you want to be trying to create a balanced diet through the meals you feed over the course of a week, but I don't buy into the idea of a prescription diet or think of it as an exact science, presumably as you are looking at the option of home cooking you have realised as much yourself, after all that's not how we treat or own diets is it.
> 
> PS - If you are really desperate for some figures you can find them here. They also go to show the nonsense of puppy/adult and breed specific foods as the requirements to be able to call your food Puppy are just a bit more protein and calories, not the magic formula Hills and Royal Canin would have you believe.


Hi yea i am looking into home cooked. Dr Strombeck uses Beef,egg,poultry and cottage cheese. I will rotate through these different protein sources if i decide to go with his recipes. Potato, white rice and pasta are the carbs. You can add veg and reduce the Potato, rice or pasta i think. I know my dog will like it more than kibble, i am having to add stuff to the kibble every meal anyway to get her to eat it which must upset the balance abit. I think these big dog food companies blind people with science, if i can feed myself and stay healthy, i am capable of feeding my dog.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Good link really useful.
> 10% bonemeal? Dr Shrombeck says 1/2 a teaspoon in his recipe. Im thinking you must mean actual bones? You can buy bone meal in a powder which is just ground cattle bone. I am confused however because the brand he uses `Kal` have changed ratios and cant find out what ratio his recipes use. There is one on zooplus which is cheaper which has a ratio of 2:3 phosphurus:calcium. I wonder if you could shed some light on it?


I know I've looked at ground bone before after one of our dogs had stitches in the mouth after a fight. The ratio raw feeders use (well Prey Model) is 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal by weight. Powdered bone surely is the same as normal bone by weight? This ratio is a guideline based on a supposed "prey animal". I would guess if a 1/2 teaspoon is all that is being used, the recipe's have other calcium sources.

There was an interesting article in the raw instinct magazine (Volume 1 Issue 2) which detailed it as...


> If I feed my dog 1 Kg of beef and bone according to the typical prey model meal tonight, that will be 900 g meat, 100 g bone (we will leave organ out of tonight's meal for simplicity's sake). My dog will get .63 g Ca and 1.8 g P from the meat. When you feed 100g of bone, 70% of that is calcium hydroxyapatite which has Ca to P in a 1.7 to 1 ratio.
> The remaining 30% of the bone is collagen some fat and moisture. That gives us 70g of Ca-P in a 1.7 to 1 ratio which is about 41g of Ca and 29g P. We'll add the 41g Ca from the bone to the .63g from the meat. Then add 29g P from the bone to the 1.8g P in the meat. We have (by rounding) 43g Ca to 31g P. The ratio is about 1.3 to 1, not only well within the recommended ratio but the ideal ratio as cited above!


Now OK, different meat has different levels of calcium/phosphorous but as a generalization it works well.

Although it may seem dismissive, I'll be honest and say I haven't worked it all out. I use the ratio as a guideline and that's fine with me. I don't work out complete nutritional tables for what I eat either.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Goblin said:


> I know I've looked at ground bone before after one of our dogs had stitches in the mouth after a fight. The ratio raw feeders use (well Prey Model) is 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal by weight. Powdered bone surely is the same as normal bone by weight? This ratio is a guideline based on a supposed "prey animal". I would guess if a 1/2 teaspoon is all that is being used, the recipe's have other calcium sources.
> 
> There was an interesting article in the raw instinct magazine (Volume 1 Issue 2) which detailed it as...
> 
> ...


Well that guide you give me the link to states. calcium 1.25g or 1250mg per 1000k cal of food. there is something like 1600mg of calcium in 1 teaspoon of KAL bone meal.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Remember that's a minimum level, with an recommended upper limit of around 6g if I remember correctly. Seems strange that one anti raw study listed lack of calcium for raw feeders though when looking at the numbers. Then again it may have been premade raw they were looking at.

At least you seem to have answered your own question and it seems the recipe is on the right track for you.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Hi can anyone explain to me what is the ideal amount of calcium and phosphorus per kg of body weight? I am still researching home cooked. I think i will go with Dr strombecks recipes but im finding the c/p amount and ratio confusing. I will be using bone meal to give my dog her calcium/phosphorus. Any advice appreciated.


I am 90% sure that stomberg's recipes are balanced - is there a reason you think they are not?

although here it is talking about renal diets if you scroll down to homecooked diets - it is at the very end

Dietary Therapy of Renal Failure


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> I am 90% sure that stomberg's recipes are balanced - is there a reason you think they are not?
> 
> although here it is talking about renal diets if you scroll down to homecooked diets - it is at the very end
> 
> Dietary Therapy of Renal Failure


Well i am not saying they are not balanced, Different brands of bone meal has different ratios of C/P though so it would be nice to know the exact ratio of bone meal that he uses. (Im sure Kal bone meal changed their ratio).

Thanks for the link. Nice to hear they are balanced, it is one of my worries making my own food that i will get it wrong. The Strombeck recipes do look easy and fairly cheap to make.

What would you go for? the meals out of the book i bought (Dinner pawsible) which uses veg for vitamins or Dr Strombecks? Dr strombecks recipes use a vitamin supplement to make it balanced. He says dogs shouldn't have liver everyday as the amount of vitamin A is excessive. The recipes in my book have liver and cod liver oil in all of the recipes, These recipes are obviously very high in vitamin A and D.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Remember that's a minimum level, with an recommended upper limit of around 6g if I remember correctly. Seems strange that one anti raw study listed lack of calcium for raw feeders though when looking at the numbers. Then again it may have been premade raw they were looking at.
> 
> At least you seem to have answered your own question and it seems the recipe is on the right track for you.


Yea just a bit daunting going away from commercial food. Want to make sure its right.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Daft in some ways.. I've done more research for my dogs than I have ever done for myself or human family so can understand.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Daft in some ways.. I've done more research for my dogs than I have ever done for myself or human family so can understand.


I dont think you're alone there


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Would anyone who knows about this thing be able to tell me how much Grau bonemeal powder i would need to use for Dr Strombecks recipes. Obviously as the ratio of the bone meal is different from the original recipe it may have to be adjusted to keep the correct ratio.

Eggs and Rice Diet

3 eggs, large, chicken, whole, cooked 
2 cups rice, long-grain, cooked (320 grams)
2 tablespoon sardines, canned, tomato sauce (38 grams)
2 tablespoons vegetable (canola) oil (28 grams)
1/4 teaspoon salt substitute-potassium chloride (1.5 gram
1/2 teaspoon bone meal powder (3 grams)
1 multiple vitamin-mineral tablet

The Grau bone meal (from zooplus):-

ash	81.4 %
fiber	0.3 %
protein	0.2 %
calcium	35.7 %
magnesium	0.022 %
sodium	0.016 %
fat	0.3 %
phosphorus	25.6 %


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Well i am not saying they are not balanced, Different brands of bone meal has different ratios of C/P though so it would be nice to know the exact ratio of bone meal that he uses. (Im sure Kal bone meal changed their ratio).
> 
> Thanks for the link. Nice to hear they are balanced, it is one of my worries making my own food that i will get it wrong. The Strombeck recipes do look easy and fairly cheap to make.
> 
> What would you go for? the meals out of the book i bought (Dinner pawsible) which uses veg for vitamins or Dr Strombecks? Dr strombecks recipes use a vitamin supplement to make it balanced. He says dogs shouldn't have liver everyday as the amount of vitamin A is excessive. The recipes in my book have liver and cod liver oil in all of the recipes, These recipes are obviously very high in vitamin A and D.


personally i would go with stomberg's recipes if the choice is between the two; his qualifications are in a different league than the authors of the other book

but since you say the ratio changed - is the whole book online or shall i check in mine whether it mentions the ratio so you can compare or perhaps email the manufacturers to check if it changed - i guess if they say it hasnt then theres nothing to worry about

i think stomberg mentions the vitamin brand as well he is using to generate his recipes but its been a very long time i read it and cant recall - im sure though that i read it - hopefully im not imagining it!


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> personally i would go with stomberg's recipes if the choice is between the two; his qualifications are in a different league than the authors of the other book
> 
> but since you say the ratio changed - is the whole book online or shall i check in mine whether it mentions the ratio so you can compare or perhaps email the manufacturers to check if it changed - i guess if they say it hasnt then theres nothing to worry about
> 
> i think stomberg mentions the vitamin brand as well he is using to generate his recipes but its been a very long time i read it and cant recall - im sure though that i read it - hopefully im not imagining it!


That would be great if you could check. Thanks!. Im not sure if its the whole book or not.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

was already checking and didnt see your reply 

it states that it is using solgar bone meal with B12 for the powder conversion and to use a measuring spoon (i guess thats the ones used for baking etc)- can you tell me the section that it refers to KAL on the website, i cant seem to find it in the book? in my book its page 83

i think he is talking about this one 
Bone Meal Powder with Vitamin B12 Solgar Vitamins, Minerals, and Herbs.
but he does state that the conversion is 
1 bonemeal tablet = a level 1/4 teaspoon of bonemeal powder

for the vitamins: it discusses pet-tabs and vi-sorbits and also mentions that human ones can be used but he is using the pet ones as far as i understood
his example is a multi vitamin-mineral from natures way products by springville,utah. but if you are going to use the human ones he states the conversion etc (let me know if you need that) - with the pet ones one thing i would check is that the formulation lets say pet-tabs is the same as the USA ones as obviously he is talking about supplements you can get in the US.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Here is the link to the free Dr Strombeck website:

Feeding A Normal Dog or Cat


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

hmm some things are the same but in the book he is using tablets for bonemeal - ill read again but cannot seem to find which ones. Looking at the kal tablets though the conversion to solgar powder is correct


hehe  found it!!!

the bonemeal tablets in the book contain: 

213mg calcium
96mg phosphorus


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

so in the diet you were asking egg&rice it calls for 4 bonemeal tablets

so that recipe needs 213*4=852 mg calcium and 96*4=384mg phosphorus


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> hmm some things are the same but in the book he is using tablets for bonemeal - ill read again but cannot seem to find which ones. Looking at the kal tablets though the conversion to solgar powder is correct
> 
> hehe  found it!!!
> 
> ...


Many thanks for doing that. Are the recipes and bone meal measures the same as in the book?. That is a ratio of 2:1 which is what Kal was before they changed it to 3:1.

Instead of releasing a new edition of the book you have he made it available for free on that website. Have you used his recipes before?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

i havent used his recipes on a regular basis so didnt need to look into supplementation - im using balanceit and buy their products for piece of mind more than anything else

in the link version of the book he mentions
" In some diets the calcium and phosphate are provided by bone meal powder or tablets. The powder used in these recipes are distributed in many different products. The amount to give is based on the amount already in the diet. The dosage recommended on the container is excessive for som. If you follow the dosage on the container check the mineral requirement tables to determine if the proper amount is given. If another form of bone meal is used, calculations can be made to determine how much is needed to meet a recipe's requirement. Examples of bone meal preparation recommended are *KAL and Solid Gold* steamed bone meal."

perhaps compare the two??


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Many thanks for doing that. Are the recipes and bone meal measures the same as in the book?. That is a ratio of 2:1 which is what Kal was before they changed it to 3:1.
> 
> Instead of releasing a new edition of the book you have he made it available for free on that website. Have you used his recipes before?


hmm...we need to know the exact amount in the KAL powder he is using to compare

the recipe is exactly the same but calls for 4 bonemeal tablets (10-grain)


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/calcium.pdf

It is stating Kal has 1500mg calcium and 750mg of Phosphorus per teaspoon. I wonder if this is the one he used?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/calcium.pdf
> 
> It is stating Kal has 1500mg calcium and 750mg of Phosphorus per teaspoon. I wonder if this is the one he used?


this link states different values ????

KAL, Bone Meal Powder, 8 oz (227 g) - iHerb.com


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> this link states different values ????
> 
> KAL, Bone Meal Powder, 8 oz (227 g) - iHerb.com


Yes this is what i am saying, That is the new Kal ratio 3:1.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

lol didnt realise...it seems like it as its closer to the values from the book...

and also ties up with what solid gold has in it 
Calcium - 1368 mg/tsp, Phosphorus - 684 mg/tsp.
http://www.vetamerica.com/browseproducts/Solid-Gold-Steamed-Bonemeal-2-lb-Container.HTML


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> lol didnt realise...it seems like it as its closer to the values from the book...
> 
> and also ties up with what solid gold has in it
> Calcium - 1368 mg/tsp, Phosphorus - 684 mg/tsp.
> Solid Gold Steamed Bonemeal 2 lb Container


So you think the website is stating a 2:1 ratio?

Kal has changed and i dont think you can buy solid gold anymore lol


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

there is a contact us link in the book website - i would email them and ask to make sure


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> there is a contact us link in the book website - i would email them and ask to make sure


Could you send me the contact details? I wonder if its still available being so old :\


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> So you think the website is stating a 2:1 ratio?
> 
> Kal has changed and i dont think you can buy solid gold anymore lol


changed my mind i dont know - bit confused....


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> i think the book is outdated now and it should be 3:1 but im not sure...


Yea it has puzzled me a bit tbh. Would it not be easy to work out how much Phosphorus and calcium are in the recipe (without bonemeal) and balance it yourself?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

the ratio should be 1.3:1 but obviously the ingredients in the recipe along with the supplement should make up to that thats why its calculated based on the amount of calories in the food as per his book


i mean the whole diet ratio for a dog


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

So if we knew the C/P of all the ingredients then we could work out how much calcium and phosphorus to add to achieve the 1.3:1 ratio?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

yes this way it can be worked out because you need to take into account the ingredients in the recipe - im not sure but nutritiondata.com might list them - make sure you select the correct cooking method


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

it does for example for hardboiled egg 100grams has

Amounts Per Selected Serving
Calcium 50.0mg
Phosphorus 172mg


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> it does for example for hardboiled egg 100grams has
> 
> Amounts Per Selected Serving
> Calcium 50.0mg
> Phosphorus 172mg


maybe an idea to work it out then.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

i did what you said to find out the calcium and phosphorus in the ingredients. I found from that the 3:1 ratio had a little more phosphorus than calcium and the 2:1 ratio had about 200mg more phosphorus than calcium. Both wrong but the 3:1 is much closer to an acceptable ratio. The c/p levels i worked the sums out with might not have been 100% accurate, which could account for the slightly inaccurate ratio. What do you think?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

if you dont mind can you share the calculation?

with the book recipe that we have all information it should all work out - i know you are referring to the new one - but it would make sense to work out the old recipe see if it makes sense and then use the same idea for the other one?

although i think they are identical

is it the egg & rice from the healthy adult you are using?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

here's my calculations using all the info from the old recipe;

calories: 939
protein: 36g
fat: 49g

calcium from recipe: 227mg
phosphorus from recipe: 571mg

in the book it calls for 4 bonemeal tablets:

calcium from tablets: (213*4)= 852mg
phosphorus from tablets: (96*4)= 384mg

total:

calcium: 1079mg
phosporus: 955mg
ratio: 1.13 : 1

so this old recipe is absolutely fine as its pretty close to 1 as stated

----------------------------------------------------------------------

i think these calculations are ok using the new kal bonemeal contents: (pls correct me if im wrong)

calcium from powder: (1620*0.5)= 810mg
phosphorus from powder: (540*0.5)= 270mg

total:

calcium: 1037mg
phosporus: 841mg
ratio: 1.23 : 1

so closer to 1.3:1


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

im not sure if i used the same recipe as you but the numbers makes sense i think....

do they make sense to you?

although this recipe is not ideal it states its high in fat and created for working dogs...


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I used egg and potato I think. Im still not 100%. Even in dr strombecks book it says dogs to have 119mg per kg of body weight of calcium?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

yes the table is the same...
i know what you mean - which is why i went for the easy option! for my peace of mind as i worry

i did a couple of other to see but even the calorie content is a bit off....


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I dont think balance it use as much calcium as 119mg per kg. I find the balanceit supplement expensive. I am pretty sure the 3:1 ratio wil be ok. Maybe if I find out when dr strombeck made the book free. If I remember you saying, you have the book and they are the same recipes and bone meal amounts? Its a little puzzling.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I dont think balance it use as much calcium as 119mg per kg. I find the balanceit supplement expensive. I am pretty sure the 3:1 ratio wil be ok. Maybe if I find out when dr strombeck made the book free. If I remember you saying, you have the book and they are the same recipes and bone meal amounts? Its a little puzzling.


hi, no the bonemeal supplement in the book is stated in tablets it calls for 4 bonemeal tablets but says for a powder version it would be half a teaspoon. The powder supplement though it mentions in the books is called solgar

bare in mind the book was written in 1999. Yes it is a little on the expensive side especially if someone is using a lot of it. I think balanceit makes recipes with human supplements as well (they charge a fee for that i think though, not sure how much never looked into it) - i just didnt want the hassle - its a personal choice really

as far as the 1.3:1 ratio goes strombergs recipes look fine - i checked a few of them. now for the minimum amount im not sure i think its slightly lacking - you can also read about the min requirement guidelines from pfma here (it is something i read when i was researching) http://www.fediaf.org/fileadmin/use...tical_Science/Nutritional_guidelines_2012.pdf

it states as far as i can remember that the min recommended amount should be 1.25g calcium and 1g phosphorus per 1000kcal of ME ; using this method (per 1000kcal of ME) allows consideration for both the weight and metabolic rate which makes more sense but does change the fact that stombergs recipes are a little on the low side i think...

another link that i have from my research 
http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediets.htm


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> if you dont mind can you share the calculation?
> 
> with the book recipe that we have all information it should all work out - i know you are referring to the new one - but it would make sense to work out the old recipe see if it makes sense and then use the same idea for the other one?
> 
> ...


Yes normal adult egg and rice.

Egg - Phos - 259.72mg Cal - 75.5mg
Rice - Phos - 137.6mg Cal - 32mg
Sardines - Phos - 139mg Cal - 91.2mg

Phos - 536.32mg + 270mg bone meal = 806.32mg
Cal - 198.7mg + 810mg bonemeal = 1008.7mg
Ratio approx 1.2:1


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yes normal adult egg and rice.
> 
> Egg - Phos - 259.72mg Cal - 75.5mg
> Rice - Phos - 137.6mg Cal - 32mg
> ...


i think yours are a bit lower than mine but pretty much the same??

still a tiny bit below the minimum recommended amount


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> i think yours are a bit lower than mine but pretty much the same??
> 
> still a tiny bit below the minimum recommended amount


What is the recommended amount? that recipe is for a 33-34 pound dog.
I did forget to add 1/5 of a human a-z vitamin which will add 25.2mg of phosphorus and 32.4 mg of calcium


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Just looking at the recipes, is it a mistake that the rice recipes are about 200 calories more than potato or macaroni?

Egg and potato - 708 calories
Egg and Macaroni - 696 calories
Egg and Rice - 964 calories

Just checked again, its about 200 more as includes veg oil


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> What is the recommended amount? that recipe is for a 33-34 pound dog.
> I did forget to add 1/5 of a human a-z vitamin which will add 25.2mg of phosphorus and 32.4 mg of calcium


oh i forgot that as well...let me recalculate using the website info


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

heres my calculations

calc phos
recipe 373 728
multivit 32.4 25
bonemeal 810 270
total 1215.4 1023
ratio 1.19	

now this is for a recipe of 943 cal according to my calculations (a bit different to his but only slightly)

so in a 1000calories you would get
calc 1237.94
phos 1067.0



min recommended amount according to the document from the pfma website is 1.25 grams of calcium per 1000cal ME right?

looks ok but it is just above the min and according to the website the min amounts for adult dogs
119mg calcium per kg of body weight	the multiply by 15kg (33pounds is approx 15kg) gives 1785 ??? not sure if this value is right though i mean the 119...maybe a 15kg dogs needs more food - the recipe does not give that much calcium though


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Yea thats what confused me the table showing 119mg calcium per kg body weight.
I have read elsewhere it is 50mg per kg body weight and 40mg phosphorus.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yea thats what confused me the table showing 119mg calcium per kg body weight.
> I have read elsewhere it is 50mg per kg body weight and 40mg phosphorus.


a ref re calcium amount (supports the pfma info) DogAware.com Articles: Homemade Cooked Diets for Dogs


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

My latest workings out are for the egg and rice diet without the veg oil. It says my dog would need about 1500 cal a day but she isnt very active so i worked it out with 1200 cal daily. Do you think its ok to reduce the meal down to this?

The workings out came to:-

Calcium 1851.5 mg
Phosphorus 1613.6 mg

My dog is approx 27-29 kg ideal weight.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> My latest workings out are for the egg and rice diet without the veg oil. It says my dog would need about 1500 cal a day but she isnt very active so i worked it out with 1200 cal daily. Do you think its ok to reduce the meal down to this?
> 
> The workings out came to:-
> 
> ...


the calories are good yes i think she will maintain a weight of around 28kg with that calculation (i played around on balanceit a bit to verify)
is that the canola oil you are omitting? i would think twice as dogs need linoleic acid and thats the source of that

i would reduce equal amounts of everything so the calorie content is reduced but still using all ingredients - if that makes sense

the calcium bit im not 100% sure - but looks ok?

ignore the supplement bit - it would be hugely expensive to do it with that but hopefully the amounts you calculated should be close...
i also tried calculating back the calcium and phosphorus amounts as per their supplement but they only give quaranteed minimums and the ratio works out at about .95 so I cant be 100% sure - dont know if thats helpful but I like to double and triple verify lol 

------------------------------------------------------------------

EGG & BROWN RICE RECIPE FOR DOGS
generated by guest at BalanceIT.com
The following homemade recipe was specially created for fdsw, a 6 yr old spayed female dog. This recipe has been formulated for a healthy pet. fdsw currently weighs 28 kg with a body condition score of 5/9. Based on her weight, her calculated energy requirement is around 1192.87 Calories daily. The following recipe provides 1202 Calories, enough for 1 day.
FDSW'S HOMEMADE FOOD RECIPE Ingredients	Grams	Amount
(1)	Egg, whole, cooked, hard-boiled	453.6 g	16	oz
(2)	Rice, brown, long-grain, cooked	463.1 g	2 3/8	cup
(3)	Oil, canola	1.1 g	1/4	of a tsp

PLUS
3 black scoop and 7 white scoops (16.28 gram) of Balance IT® Canine once a day
1 bottle of Balance IT® Canine will last about 36 days
Per Above Recipe: 1202 Calories; 23% protein calories (276 Calories); 40% fat calories (481 Calories); 37% carbohydrate calories (445 Calories); 72.5% moisture. Notes: These percentages do not correspond to the percentages listed on commercially made food.
Preparation Instructions:
Hard boil the egg in the water until fully cooked, and peel and discard the shell. Cook the brown rice per package instructions without any added salt. Once cooked measure out the egg and brown rice in the amounts above. Cut the egg into small pieces. Place the brown rice in a serving bowl and add the oil and the necessary supplement. Mix well. Place the cut egg onto the rice and serve.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Wont the sardines provide linoleic acid?
He says if the veg oil is omitted the calories are 712. I figured if the oil is removed then there will be more egg, rice and bone meal so more calcium and phosphorus.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

sardines are a good source of omega-3 especially the epa and dha part and B12 but not for linoleic acid as far as i read and checking on it showa that

38g sardines contain :46.7 mg linoleic acid
and

28g canola oil contains: 6529 mg linoleic acid

so i wouldnt omit it - i would just adjust or use one of the other diets


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> sardines are a good source of omega-3 especially the epa and dha part and B12 but not for linoleic acid as far as i read and checking on it showa that
> 
> 38g sardines contain :46.7 mg linoleic acid
> and
> ...


Cheers you have been a great help.
I am just wondering now if i should order some KAL bone meal. The Calcium issue still makes me apprehensive tbh. I would like to know for certain before i commit to it.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I just read that the nutrient requirement table in Dr Strombecks book is from the guidelines of NRC 1985. The newer NRC guidelines state a ratio of 1:1 and 50mg of calcium per kg of body weight and 50mg of phosphorus per kg body weight. I have not seen the guidelines but read this in another forum. www.rottweiler.net/forums/nutrition-grooming/33083-bonemeal-tablets.html

I also found this spreadsheet to determine the requirements of your dog by weight.

www.docs.google.com/file/d/0B5iLESopkbPdWUZDUGczNktSSzZMS2c2UjE2ZW9FQQ/edit?pli=1


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

no problem glad to help - the pfma document recommendations has the NRC 2006 in it which states the values per 1000kcal - which is why i was saying it makes more sense - i dont think it matters which one as long as its a well known one good brand etc - if you dont like Kal theres now foods as well...

the NRC recomendation is 750mg for a 33pound dog consuming 1000calories per day which calculates back to the 50mg per kg you mentioned 

proof linky: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...xYGQAw&usg=AFQjCNFxMAyJM_NEllKZ2laOaE2lwjNpig


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I just read that the nutrient requirement table in Dr Strombecks book is from the guidelines of NRC 1985. The newer NRC guidelines state a ratio of 1:1 and 50mg of calcium per kg of body weight and 50mg of phosphorus per kg body weight. I have not seen the guidelines but read this in another forum. Bonemeal Tablets - Rottweiler Discussion Forums
> 
> I also found this spreadsheet to determine the requirements of your dog by weight.
> 
> www.docs.google.com/file/d/0B5iLESopkbPdWUZDUGczNktSSzZMS2c2UjE2ZW9FQQ/edit?pli=1


thanks for the spreadsheet did not have that!


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

So are we agreed that Dr strombecks recipes will provide enough calcium using kal 3:1 bone meal?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> So are we agreed that Dr strombecks recipes will provide enough calcium using kal 3:1 bone meal?


yes i think its fine - but the way i see it is that it doesnt really matter as long as you are then calculating theappropriate amounts and ratio to add in the diet


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

which multivitamin are you going for?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> which multivitamin are you going for?


Well as far as how much bone meal to add. I was going to add the amount i have increased the recipe by so, for example i was 1200 calories, i may need to times the recipe by 1.5 so i would do the same with the bone meal. Is this correct?

What do you think of 1/2 of an asda own brand az multivitamin?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Well as far as how much bone meal to add. I was going to add the amount i have increased the recipe by so, for example i was 1200 calories, i may need to times the recipe by 1.5 so i would do the same with the bone meal. Is this correct?
> 
> What do you think of 1/2 of an asda own brand az multivitamin?


yes i think this is right - but i would recalculate to make sure it meets the ratio as well as the min requirements of 50mg per kg - also use the spreadsheet to verify seems pretty good

why 0.5 shouldnt it be 40% of the recommended adult dose? i cant find the contents but cross check with the centrum ones to see if amounts are pretty much the same as quite a few resources are recommending the centrum ones - if they are pretty much the same then 40% of it although i can see this being quite difficult unless you get liquid ones of course....


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> yes i think this is right - but i would recalculate to make sure it meets the ratio as well as the min requirements of 50mg per kg - also use the spreadsheet to verify seems pretty good
> 
> why 0.5 shouldnt it be 40% of the recommended adult dose? i cant find the contents but cross check with the centrum ones to see if amounts are pretty much the same as quite a few resources are recommending the centrum ones - if they are pretty much the same then 40% of it although i can see this being quite difficult unless you get liquid ones of course....


0.5 just me being more is better lol. I will have a look at centrum. Was just looking at asda as cheap. I think they are all similar in regards to vitamin amounts. I will study all the vitamins to see if they reach NRC 2006 amounts.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

yes calculating it would make sense to be sure

some advice given here:

"Another option is to give a complete multi-vitamin and mineral supplement made for either humans or dogs. If using one-a-day products made to meet minimum daily requirements for people, such as Centrum for Adults Under 50, you can give the full adult human dose to dogs weighing 50 pounds or more, half the human dose for dogs weighing 25 pounds, and one-quarter the human dose to dogs weighing 10 pounds. Larger dogs would get proportionately higher doses. If the human product you are using is designed to be high in vitamins and minerals, then base the dosage on the size of your dog compared to a person, where a dog weighing 60 pounds, for example, would get half the human dose. Very small dogs require products made for dogs in order to get the dosage right. Reduce the amount of added calcium if the amount in the supplement is significant. Don't use children's products that contain xylitol, which is toxic to dogs!"

i wonder whether that adds up to the NRC 2006 quidelines as according to this she will need 1 per day


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

i think it does....right?

heres what centrum has in it:
click on product information
Centrum Advance | Centrum

Each Tablet Contains:	Quantity	% EU RDA
Vitamin A (RE)	800 μg	100 %
Lutein	500 μg	- 
Vitamin E (α - TE)	15 mg	125 %
Vitamin C	100 mg	125 %
Vitamin K	30 μg	40 %
Vitamin B1 (Thiamin)	1.4 mg	127 %
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)	1.75 mg	125 %
Vitamin B6	2 mg	143 %
Vitamin B12	2.5 μg	100 %
Vitamin D	5 μg	100 %
Biotin	62.5 μg	125 %
Folic Acid	200 μg	100 %
Niacin (NE)	20 mg	125 %
Pantothenic Acid	7.5 mg	125 %
Calcium	162 mg	20 %
Phosphorus	125 mg	18 %
Magnesium	100 mg	27 %
Iron	5 mg	36 %
Iodine	100 μg	67 %
Copper	500 μg	50 %
Manganese	2 mg	100 %
Chromium	40 μg	100 %
Molybdenum	50 μg	100 %
Selenium	30 μg	55 %
Zinc	5 mg	50 %


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I will check the amounts with NRC 2006. I wonder if UK vitamins have different guidelines to USA vitamins?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I worked out the analysis for the Egg and potato diet. These amounts are excluding the vitamin/mineral tablet,bone meal, salt and potasium cloride. Values are given for the recipe that provides 1000 calories. 

The values on the right are the 2006 NRC minimum values for 1000 calories of food.


Vitamin A 1336.26 IU----- 1515IU
Vitamin C 28.182mg------	
Vitamin D 260.26IU----------- 138IU
Vitamin E 2.865mg-------- 9mg
Vitamin K 0.716mcg------	
Thaimin 0---------------- 0.56mg
Riboflavin 1.433mg----------- 1.5mg
Niacin 8.66mg------------- 4.25mg
Vitamin B6 1.493mg------------- 0.38mg
Folate 160.7mcg--------------- 67.5 UG
Vitamin B12 7.442mcg------------ 8.75UG
Pantothenic Acid	5.134mg------------ 3.75mg
Choline 486.3mg----------- 425mg
Betaine 1.29mg-------------	
Calcium 476.85mg-------------- 1250mg
Iron 36.25mg------------- 9mg
magnesium 182mg----------------- 180mg
Phosphorus 855.31mg--------------- 1000mg
Potassium 2613mg------------------ 1250mg
Sodium 565.45mg--------------- 250mg
Zinc 4.989mg---------------- 18mg
Copper 4.922mg---------------- 1.8mg
Manganese 7.043mg---------------- 1.44mg
Selenium 89.835mcg	------------- 75UG
Fluoride 10.32mcg-----------------	
Iodine ?	------------------- 0.26mg

Im pretty sure UG is the same as mcg.

Values when bone meal added:-

Calcium: 1635.15mg
Phosphorus: 1241.41mg


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

0.286 of 1 Asda vitamin supplement will add

Vitamin A	755.04iu
Vitamin D	4.7IU
Vitamin E	2.86mg
Vitamin K	8.58ug
Vitamin C	17.16mg
Thiamin 0.4mg
Riboflavin	0.45mg
Niacin 5.14mg
Vitamin B6	0.572mg
Folic acid	57.2ug
Vitamin B12	0.286ug
Biotin 42.9ug
Pantothenic acid 1.716mg
Calcium 46.3mg
Phosphorus	36mg
Magnesium 28.6mg
Iron 4mg
Zinc 4.29mg
Copper 0.286mg
Maganese	0.143mg
Selenium 7.15ug
Chromium	7.15ug
Iodine 42.9ug


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Seems to come up short in Vitamin E and Zinc? :\


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> 0.286 of 1 Asda vitamin supplement will add
> 
> Vitamin A	755.04iu
> Vitamin D	4.7IU
> ...


i think im being thick here but why .286 of the tablet?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

i increased the recipe. the standard recipe calls for 0.2 of a human vitamin. i increased the whole recipe by 1.43 to make it into 1000 calories. 0.2 x 1.43 = 0.286


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> i increased the recipe. the standard recipe calls for 0.2 of a human vitamin. i increased the whole recipe by 1.43 to make it into 1000 calories. 0.2 x 1.43 = 0.286


if you check the tables it gives the amount of vitamins by weight of the dog - so i assumed it was 40%....might be wrong....


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> if you check the tables it gives the amount of vitamins by weight of the dog - so i assumed it was 40%....might be wrong....


a 35ib dog requires just under 1000 calories so 0.286 is actually more than what he says if you went by the calorie guide given.

I would increase the calories for my dog and about 0.4-0.5 of a human vitamin if i went by his guideline.

I imagine it may balance out zinc , vit e etc when u vary the different meat. Beef is high in zinc for example. What you think?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> a 35ib dog requires just under 1000 calories so 0.286 is actually more than what he says if you went by the calorie guide given.
> 
> I would increase the calories for my dog and about 0.4-0.5 of a human vitamin if i went by his guideline.
> 
> I imagine it may balance out zinc , vit e etc when u vary the different meat. Beef is high in zinc for example. What you think?


by hid guideline our dog should get 40 or 50 percent - thats what i was referring to - sorry i know understand you were talking about the 33lb dog and i was talking about 60-70lbs

if you use the values for the increased calories that your dog would be eating and half the multivitamin would that bring the values round about right?

if yes then i think the multivitamin bit should be ok

i would save all these and especially the calcium bit as when you change recipe you need to make sure you are giving the correct amounts


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Well i dont think all the recipes are 100% complete as some give high of one nutrient but low on another which is why you need to give variety. Im sure your diet isnt 100% complete all of the time but will balance out by eating a variety of foods over time. I am working out the poultry and rice one now and that is low in choline where as egg recipes are very high in choline. Beef recipes are higher in zinc whilst others are low. I have been told you need to change recipes every 3 days at most. I think egg gives the most nutrition out of all the protein sources from what ive seen so far. Maybe you could look in your Dr Stombeck book as i am sure i read he recommends the majority to be egg diets, i could be wrong on that though.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Well i dont think all the recipes are 100% complete as some give high of one nutrient but low on another which is why you need to give variety. Im sure your diet isnt 100% complete all of the time but will balance out by eating a variety of foods over time. I am working out the poultry and rice one now and that is low in choline where as egg recipes are very high in choline. Beef recipes are higher in zinc whilst others are low. I have been told you need to change recipes every 3 days at most. I think egg gives the most nutrition out of all the protein sources from what ive seen so far. Maybe you could look in your Dr Stombeck book as i am sure i read he recommends the majority to be egg diets, i could be wrong on that though.


the recipes i have use a different amount of supplement depending on the ingredients...

oh i will have a look for you - no worries


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

thanks.

Im sure balance it recipes and supplements are designed so the same recipe can be fed all the time, much like commercial food.


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Hi can anyone explain to me what is the ideal amount of calcium and phosphorus per kg of body weight? I am still researching home cooked. I think i will go with Dr strombecks recipes but im finding the c/p amount and ratio confusing. I will be using bone meal to give my dog her calcium/phosphorus. Any advice appreciated.


i go completely by what it looks like at the other end. If the poos are dry and crumbly I know there is too much calcium (bone), if they are too soft then I fed too much meat (phosphorus) and not enough bone.

Finally after 6 months I have worked out what is best for my 34kg dog, he gets 600g food a day and only about 60g of that is bone- about one chicken wing's worth of bone.

When you feed whole prey like a whole rabbit the ratios tend to be 80 10 10, 80 meat, 10 bone and 10 offal (%)

So in your home cooked diet or home raw diet if you aim for around 10% bone then it's pretty much spot on.

Some dogs require more than 10% to keep them firm while others a bit less.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Rawisbest said:


> i go completely by what it looks like at the other end. If the poos are dry and crumbly I know there is too much calcium (bone), if they are too soft then I fed too much meat (phosphorus) and not enough bone.
> 
> Finally after 6 months I have worked out what is best for my 34kg dog, he gets 600g food a day and only about 60g of that is bone- about one chicken wing's worth of bone.
> 
> ...


I thought the guidelines are a max of 6g of calcium?


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

If you feed 10% bone in any diet whether it's raw, cooked or commercial it probably works out around 6g. A bone is not pure calcium, many other mineral including a lot of water.

I feed whole prey mostly, pheasants, rabbits- the ratios in these foods are perfect especially if the organs are left in.

Obviously if you are feeding a St Bernard or a Yorkie the food amount will differ and so will the calcium/phosphorus requirement, 
It's not something I ever think about.

You can also make powdered eggshell calcium to add to boneless meat etc
How To Make Your Own Ground Egg Shell Supplement


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

Have a read here- it's not so much the weigh of dogt but the amount of phosphors entering body (in simple terms amount of meat)

If you are cooking meat you will need to add x amount of calcium supplement (ground, powdered egg shell) to the meat.

When I did home cooked I added one teaspoon of powdered eggshell to every pound of boneless meat.

Three Questions About Calcium For Pets


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Well going by dr strombeck he uses a 1.3:1 ratio and 3g of kal bone meal in his recipe for a 34ib dog.


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Well going by dr strombeck he uses a 1.3:1 ratio and 3g of kal bone meal in his recipe for a 34ib dog.


The rule of thumb in natural feeding is 80.10.10

80% meat, 10% organ, 10% bone.

If a dog eats a whole rabbit- the most natural way then that is how a rabbit is divided up- as are all mammals.

If you feed 80 10 10 then the calcium/phosphorus ratio is spot on.

Nature always gets it right.

I don't think I am helping really as I can only go on raw feeding and feeding totally natural.


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

It's really easy- you are going down the cooked food avenue right?
So just make yourself some powdered eggshell (the inner membrane contains glucosamine) and follow this table and you're sorted!




Weight of Meat -- Ground Egg Shells



100 grams 1/4 tsp
200 grams 1/2 tsp
300 grams 2/3 tsp
400 grams 3/4 tsp




1/4 pound 1/4 tsp
1/2 pound 1/2 tsp
3/4 pound 3/4 tsp
1 pound 1 tsp


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Rawisbest said:


> If a dog eats a whole rabbit- the most natural way then that is how a rabbit is divided up- as are all mammals.


Not strictly true.. in a rabbit bone content is around 8%, elephant it's around 16.5%. Meat, bone and skin make up around 78% of a deer far less than 80% meat only. 80/10/10 is a ballpark guideline only. Although people should aim for it, it's not the be all and end all if you cannot match it.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

So the ratio is more important than amounts?

If you go by guidelines they say a min of 1250mg of calcium per 1000 cal of food and a min of 1000mg of phosphorus.


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> So the ratio is more important than amounts?
> 
> If you go by guidelines they say a min of 1250mg of calcium per 1000 cal of food and a min of 1000mg of phosphorus.


Yes, it's totally about the ratio and not amount- if you feed the correct ratio the phosphorus and calcium are absorbed without conflict.

For example- raw green tripe ratio is 1:1 calcium to phosphorus so perfect.

If I feed Jimmy a whole load of meat one day without any bone then he gets the runs, but if I add bone or powdered eggshell what comes out the other end is perfect.

When I did home cooked I would weigh out 1lb of mince and add 1 teaspoon of powdered eggshell, I fed this with brown rice and some veg. He also had tinned fish, scrambled eggs.

He hasn't had fruit/veg/carbs for 6 months now and he's gone very shiny and smells of a puppy again. He will be 11 in May so it's good to see him doing so well.

a home cooked diet is 100% better than processed kibble IMO but yes you do have to make sure there is enough calcium.

What meats etc were you thinking of using?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Feeding A Normal Dog or Cat

It is dr strombecks book, I was thinking of using his. Majority egg recipe, and rotate chicken, turkey and beef

Please have a look through it and tell me what you think.



Rawisbest said:


> Yes, it's totally about the ratio and not amount- if you feed the correct ratio the phosphorus and calcium are absorbed without conflict.
> 
> For example- raw green tripe ratio is 1:1 calcium to phosphorus so perfect.
> 
> ...


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes will have a look, no problem :biggrin:


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

That all looks fine- the bonemeal covers your calcium and I'm sure he has worked out that the 3g to the chicken and egg for example is all good.

The multivit/mineral tab is a kind of insurance thing really, I never gave my dog them. Meat, eggs, fish etc has really everything covered but maybe cooking destroys some vitamins so probably best to add.

Sounds good and your dog(s) will go mad for it! I bet you have lots of pleasure cooking for them


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Rawisbest said:


> That all looks fine- the bonemeal covers your calcium and I'm sure he has worked out that the 3g to the chicken and egg for example is all good.
> 
> The multivit/mineral tab is a kind of insurance thing really, I never gave my dog them. Meat, eggs, fish etc has really everything covered but maybe cooking destroys some vitamins so probably best to add.
> 
> Sounds good and your dog(s) will go mad for it! I bet you have lots of pleasure cooking for them


I havnt started yet just wanting to make sure I get it right.
Shes on Arden Grange fish and potato at the moment and I need to add stuff to get her to eat it! I think all dry food is rubbish tbh.

I have got analysis of all ingredients in chicken and egg recipes. Going by nrc 2006 guidelines, some are high in choline and others low. Some low in zinc but high in beef recipes etc. Is this ok?


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes what you can remember is not every single meal needs to be balanced- we don't do that as humans. Balance comes over a week or even a month so if you feed variety- which is the key all things will be covered. You will know exactly what you are feeding and control what goes into the food.
You can use your eye as well- the amount my dog is supposed to have (raw) is 800g a day- but because he has limted exercise- only 3 legs and he is a male, castrated older lab I have found that 500g a day maintains his weight beautifully.
This is him!


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Lovely dog, Chocolate is my favorite of the labs.
I think its just going from a complete commercial to doing my own. Once im doing it I will probably stop worrying lol.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I think its just going from a complete commercial to doing my own. Once im doing it I will probably stop worrying lol.


Think most of us not feeding commercial food have been there... 

Lovely dog Rawisbest.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Think most of us not feeding commercial food have been there...
> 
> Lovely dog Rawisbest.


What do you think of dr strombecks recipes?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm not the best person to ask to be honest as I'm biased to my feeding method, despite the fact I do try to provide a balanced viewpoint if possible. Personally I don't see such a need for vegetables or carbohydrates in general and my general feeling is against supplements such as multiple vitamin-mineral tablets for a healthy dog. Others however are of a different opinion and some are professional nutritionists. If there's one thing you've probably realized by now everyone has different ideas on what is right for their dog and themselves including differing views from these professionals. The main thing is you've looked into it in depth and done a lot of research from different sources. At some point you just have to take that leap of faith and see if what you have decided suits your dog.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Goblin said:


> I'm not the best person to ask to be honest as I'm biased to my feeding method, despite the fact I do try to provide a balanced viewpoint if possible. Personally I don't see such a need for vegetables or carbohydrates in general and my general feeling is against supplements such as multiple vitamin-mineral tablets for a healthy dog. Others however are of a different opinion and some are professional nutritionists. If there's one thing you've probably realized by now everyone has different ideas on what is right for their dog and themselves including differing views from these professionals. The main thing is you've looked into it in depth and done a lot of research from different sources. At some point you just have to take that leap of faith and see if what you have decided suits your dog.


Yea its got to be better than kibble anyway. Think I may order the bone meal and get on with it :biggrin:


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm with Goblin, however I really applaud anyone that choose to ditch the processed junk- I would rather feed tinned meat and biscuits than complete kibble.

The recipes seem a lot of work compared to the way I feed but then...I personally wouldn't mind that. I love planning, butchering, packing food!! Feeding raw is more like a hobby to me than just a means of feeding Jimmy :biggrin:

The recipes are fine though and your dog will love the food.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I dont mind the work as I know my dog will enjoy them. I can see the appeal of raw, doubt my mother would allow raw meat everywhere though. Maybe I will eventually progress onto raw


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## Rawisbest (Oct 7, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I dont mind the work as I know my dog will enjoy them. I can see the appeal of raw, doubt my mother would allow raw meat everywhere though. Maybe I will eventually progress onto raw


I have my doggy freezer outside- all I do is take whatever he's eating out, pack of salmon mince, lamb chunks whatever, dump in bowl, thaw over night and then feed next day. No raw food goes near kitchen but at the end of the day it's just the same as dealing with raw meat for us- wash hands well.
I do wear rubber gloves if I have to handle tripe- even frozen because it stinks!!:biggrin:
A lot of the food I feed is game and it's fit for human consumption so really no different than any other raw.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Rawisbest said:


> I have my doggy freezer outside- all I do is take whatever he's eating out, pack of salmon mince, lamb chunks whatever, dump in bowl, thaw over night and then feed next day. No raw food goes near kitchen but at the end of the day it's just the same as dealing with raw meat for us- wash hands well.
> I do wear rubber gloves if I have to handle tripe- even frozen because it stinks!!:biggrin:
> A lot of the food I feed is game and it's fit for human consumption so really no different than any other raw.


Cant see her agreeing to it tbh. lol. Personally i prefer the idea of home cooked. I did try her with wet food. Wainwrights, Lukullus and Naturediet. All seemed to upset her stomach. I think Meat and rice will be easier on her digestion.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

*UPDATE*

I am having trouble getting hold of the KAL bone meal


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> I am having trouble getting hold of the KAL bone meal


iherb states that it will be back in stock 1st of march


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> thanks.
> 
> Im sure balance it recipes and supplements are designed so the same recipe can be fed all the time, much like commercial food.


sorry im late on this - i cannot find anything specifically regarding egg diets...

yes they are designed like that - you are correct - fresh though is better than commercial


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> iherb states that it will be back in stock 1st of march


It costs a fortune for shipping from USA.

There is a German one from zooplus.

Grau Bone Meal: Great Deals on Dog Supplements at zooplus

Might email them asking if its tested for contaminants. its more like a 2:3 ratio as well so will have to work out how much to give. I wonder if this would be suitable.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> It costs a fortune for shipping from USA.
> 
> There is a German one from zooplus.
> 
> ...


theres this one but i dont generally buy from ebay so im not sure

KAL, Bone Meal Powder, 8 oz (227 g) | eBay


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

or this

Bone Meal Powder (8 oz (227 g)) [CAL-55629] - £9.60 : Vitamin UK, The premier site for healthy living


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Yea I seen that. I do feel a little uneasy buying from an unknown site, iv heard stories of fake human medicines, tablets etc.
I ordered that ebay one but they cancelled as it was out of stock!
What do you think of the grau bone meal?, its half the price and u get nearly twice the amount.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

personally if i did it your way i would go for a preparation intended for human consumption

did they say when they'll get it in again - it might be just a matter of waiting 1 week?

if not, how about the now foods one? or the solgar one?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yea I seen that. I do feel a little uneasy buying from an unknown site, iv heard stories of fake human medicines, tablets etc.
> I ordered that ebay one but they cancelled as it was out of stock!
> What do you think of the grau bone meal?, its half the price and u get nearly twice the amount.


confused.....theres 2 sellers of this - is this the same one? how can they say more than 10 available


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> confused.....theres 2 sellers of this - is this the same one? how can they say more than 10 available


Yea £9.35 + £1.50 pp. I ordered and cancelled as i had 2nd thoughts about it lol. There isnt really any cheap and easy to do recipes without bone meal though tbh. I was worried about contaminants but tbh in kibble `chicken meal` `lamb meal` etc is bone meal, is it not?.
They cancelled it anyway because they were out of stock. Must be just a poor seller, showing in stock items when they havnt got them. I noticed negitive feedback mentioning this.
There is another seller on ebay and it says they are on holiday when i try and buy it (even though it is now 23rd of feb :S).

Do you not think the Grau bone meal from zooplus will be suitable? It just means a little more working out. Its from a reputable retailer also and readily available.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yea £9.35 + £1.50 pp. I ordered and cancelled as i had 2nd thoughts about it lol. There isnt really any cheap and easy to do recipes without bone meal though tbh. I was worried about contaminants but tbh in kibble `chicken meal` `lamb meal` etc is bone meal, is it not?.
> They cancelled it anyway because they were out of stock. Must be just a poor seller, showing in stock items when they havnt got them. I noticed negitive feedback mentioning this.
> There is another seller on ebay and it says they are on holiday when i try and buy it (even though it is now 23rd of feb :S).
> 
> Do you not think the Grau bone meal from zooplus will be suitable? It just means a little more working out. Its from a reputable retailer also and readily available.


do you know the mgs of calcium and phosphorus in it?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> do you know the mgs of calcium and phosphorus in it?


Ingredients

Protein: 0.2%
Crude fat: 0.3%
Crude fiber 0.3%
Ash: 81.4%
Sodium: 0.016%
Magnesium: 0.022%
Calcium 35.70%
Phosphorus 25.60%

confused as that doesnt add up to 100% :S


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

I`m wondering if i could use brown rice instead of white rice (higher phosphorus) and use egg shell instead?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Ingredients
> 
> Protein: 0.2%
> Crude fat: 0.3%
> ...


haha yes seen that on zooplus website...perhaps you can email the company directly for some information?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I`m wondering if i could use brown rice instead of white rice (higher phosphorus) and use egg shell instead?


oh yes that would be a good idea - check this website for some info on the eggshell - dont forget you need to bake and grind them ideally in coffee grinder as otherwise she wont absorb it i think thats what i read

---------------------------------------------------------------
CALCIUM

Adequate calcium with vitamin D is protective in many ways, including protection against cancer and inflammatory disease, as well as seizures. Egg shells, milk, cheese, and oyster shells are the best forms of calcium, and the milk and cheese provide the necessary vitamin D, which is especially important for animals that use drugs that deplete vitamin D. Liver is the best way to get the necessary vitamin D, since it also includes other anti-seizure and calcium-regulating nutrients.

A young animal's prepared food should contain about 1500 mg of calcium per pound of food, and about half that much for a mature animal. A pound of moist food is a pint, so a cup is a half-pound. Considering nutrient content per weight of food is appropriate, since it makes allowances for both the weight and the metabolic rate of the animal.

You can make your own calcium from egg shells and avoid any contamination. Buy organic eggs and after using the eggs rinse the egg shells thoroughly and put them aside in an open container. When you have gathered enough egg shells, put them in the oven at 350 for 20 minutes. Then when cooled, crush them and put them in a coffee grinder, or a fine grinder, until they are like powder.

EGG SHELLS DOSAGE: once a day

10 to 50 lbs 1/8 tsp.
50 to 75 lbs 1/4 tsp.
75 to 100 lbs 1/2 tsp.
100 lbs + 3/4 tsp.

(or if you prefer) OYSTER SHELL CALCIUM DOSAGE: once a day

750 mg tablet or capsule per cup of food

NOTE: you can crush the tablet with a mallet or hammer if your dog spits it out.

If it's oyster shell or egg shell, you don't have to worry about an overdose, because they contain some other things besides the calcium.

Daily dose of oyster shell calcium:

10 to 20 lbs - 300 mg
20 to 40 lbs - 400 mg
40 to 60 lbs - 750 mg
60 to 80 lbs - 1,000 mg
80 to 100 lbs - 1,250 mg
100 to 140 lbs - 1,500 mg

---------------------------------------------------------------
ref linkySupplements for Home Cooked Diets - Canine Epilepsy Guardian Angels


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Yet more working out ! Lol. I hope its ok to use brown rice for the phosphorus, I wonder if it is less absorbable than bone? At least I wouldnt have to worry about heavy metel contaminates with egg shell.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yet more working out ! Lol. I hope its ok to use brown rice for the phosphorus, I wonder if it is less absorbable than bone? At least I wouldnt have to worry about heavy metel contaminates with egg shell.


i think the eggshells are a better option at the moment vs. grau one plus you can use the eggs in the recipe 

haha yes


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> i think the eggshells are a better option at the moment vs. grau one plus you can use the eggs in the recipe
> 
> haha yes


Yes and they are free 
Does he mention eggshell at all in his book?
I think i will be doing mostly egg recipes, probably 3-4 a week as they are high in choline and others are alot lower.

I think in USA the human vitamins contain more Vitamin A and D in their supplements. Dr Strombeck says too much of these vitamins are harmful hence reducing the size of the human vitamin used. I was thinking about 1 whole Santogen AZ complete vitamin a day.


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yes and they are free
> Does he mention eggshell at all in his book?
> I think i will be doing mostly egg recipes, probably 3-4 a week as they are high in choline and others are alot lower.
> 
> I think in USA the human vitamins contain more Vitamin A and D in their supplements. Dr Strombeck says too much of these vitamins are harmful hence reducing the size of the human vitamin used. I was thinking about 1 whole Santogen AZ complete vitamin a day.


i believe he does - im sure i've read it in there cant recall exactly where or maybe its from another source hmmm not too sure but ive read it in various places

she is over 50 pounds anyway so she needs 1 tablet - just as a safety check the vitA bit to make sure is not too much or tool low vs nrc2006


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> i believe he does - im sure i've read it in there cant recall exactly where or maybe its from another source hmmm not too sure but ive read it in various places
> 
> she is over 50 pounds anyway so she needs 1 tablet - just as a safety check the vitA bit to make sure is not too much or tool low vs nrc2006


I think its ok. That nutrition data site says egg doesnt have vitamin D when egg does :S. Makes you wonder how accurate it is. One worry about not using bone meal is, will she be getting enough phosphorus?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I think its ok. That nutrition data site says egg doesnt have vitamin D when egg does :S. Makes you wonder how accurate it is. One worry about not using bone meal is, will she be getting enough phosphorus?


meats and fish are really high in phosphorus - i wouldnt worry about that

use this website i think its better Show Foods
But they dont typically show info for chloride, choline, iodine, vitamin D, and taurine


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Thanks i prefer that site.

I got some info on Grau bone meal.

Ca = 35.7%, that is 357 mg to 1000 mg, 1071 mg to 3000 mg, accordingly,
P = 25.6%, ie 256 mg to 1000 mg, 768 mg to 3000 mg accordingly.

I dont think its tested for contaminants but is from cattle from EU. Concidering using this. Could it have any more contaminants than say chicken or lamb meal that she eats in kibble?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Thanks i prefer that site.
> 
> I got some info on Grau bone meal.
> 
> ...


if a the pet food manufacturer is a member of pfma then it is tested according to their documents/guidance

you are not a fan of the eggshells idea?

remind me why you are not going for Kal again? there was an availability problem? iherb i think will ship for $6 and i think you wont get charged any duty on it as its under £15....

the eggshells are the safest i guess regarding contaminants


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> if a the pet food manufacturer is a member of pfma then it is tested according to their documents/guidance
> 
> you are not a fan of the eggshells idea?
> 
> ...


I would rather use egg shell but im not sure if i should be messing with his recipe :\

I didnt realise the kal was that cheap on iherb. i shall look into it.

as the grau bone meal is a higher phosphorus than kal, i wud need to use more to get it to balance. I would worry less with more calcium and phosphorus but lose my hair worrying about contaminants lol


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> I would rather use egg shell but im not sure if i should be messing with his recipe :\
> 
> I didnt realise the kal was that cheap on iherb. i shall look into it.
> 
> as the grau bone meal is a higher phosphorus than kal, i wud need to use more to get it to balance. I would worry less with more calcium and phosphorus but lose my hair worrying about contaminants lol


i see your point regarding messing up etc

Kal is $8.17 (£5.48) on iherb but you need to add $6 for delivery - thats still under 15pounds and shouldnt be charged any duty on it....


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Found a milk based supplement by beaphar. 

BONE BUILDER

Contains: Minerals; Milk and Milk Derivatives; Yeasts; (contains no additives)

Analysis: Crude Protein 2.1%; Crude Fat 0.2%; Crude Fibre 0.1%; Crude ash 66.2%;
Moisture 13.6%; Calcium 22.3%; phosphorous 13.3%; potassium 0.1%;
sodium 0.0% (no salt); magnesium 0.8%

What do you think?


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## demetris20 (Jun 27, 2012)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Found a milk based supplement by beaphar.
> 
> BONE BUILDER
> 
> ...


I wouldnt give this personaly as it is far from a calcium supplement....
im not sure if SF50 is any good though....


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Its going to have to be the KAL bone meal i think. I might just stick with kibble until i can get hold of some.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

demetris20 said:


> I wouldnt give this personaly as it is far from a calcium supplement....
> im not sure if SF50 is any good though....


I emwiled beaphar and they said it is suitable for a home cooked diet? Per 1g it contains 223mg calcium and 133mg of phosphorus. Do you think it is a bad idea to use this?


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