# Dog Behaviourist - Leeds & North



## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi All,

I'm new to this forum so thought I'd say hi!! I'm a Dog Behaviourist based in Leeds but I do travel some distance to help clients 

Just wanted to say hello and hopefully I'll be able to get involved with some of the discussions!

Feel free to message me!

Helen


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## martey (Jan 5, 2010)

oh hi nice to meet u, where about in leeds r u based? and wot sort of behaviourist r u? just tht my staffy is not gud with dogs ever since he got attacked a while bk which means we cant let him off the lead just to be safe and he got so much built uo stamina u wudnt believe any advice much appreciated ty im also from leeds


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

where did U study, helen? 
i have been looking for some good courses. can U recommend anything? 
TIA, 
--- terry


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi there,

What kind of behaviourist am I?! The good kind haha of course I would say that!! Have a look at my website Helping Canines that should give you an idea.

I'm based west side of leeds but I travel all over to help people and I have come across your problem on so many occasions ... so many staffies get attacked when they are younger, sadly.

I'm sure I would be able to help you, i dont use bully tactics or any unkind methods at all!

I look forward to hearing from you.

Helen


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi Leashed ...

I've studied a LOT of different courses!! But I'm sold on the Amichien Bonding with Jan Fennell to be honest ... I've tried and tested her methods on so many occasions and had great results ... be wary of all the online/learn from home courses they are not good, give terrible advice and contradict themselves all the time!! Complete waste of money, unless all you want is a certificate and not good knowledge!! 

Where are you based, I might be able to recommend some things in your area!

Helen


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## martey (Jan 5, 2010)

i just wasnt sure if u only did certain things for behaviour lol im sure ur good i will have a look on ur site now gr8 stuff x


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## martey (Jan 5, 2010)

i cant seeem to get on ur website its not loading have u got a number for it i could ring instead im desperate ha x


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## martey (Jan 5, 2010)

no i found it i think silk mill? ls16? im in ls13 sorry lol x:blush:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...I'm sold on the Amichien Bonding with Jan Fennell...


darn - 
thanks, helen, but i am in the USA.  ah, well. 
i appreciate the reply, tho!

all my best, 
--- terry


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

Welcome to the forum. I used to work as a dog trainer, not too far from you, in Selby, ocassionally I lectured at an animal care college in Leeds, was in Horsforth? and at Askam Bryan, just outside York. 

I know a few APDT people in that area, do you work with anyone?

Kate


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Do you honestly believe eating over your dogs bowl makes any difference to the dog?


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Helping Canines said:


> Hi Leashed ...
> 
> I've studied a LOT of different courses!! But I'm sold on the Amichien Bonding with Jan Fennell to be honest ... I've tried and tested her methods on so many occasions and had great results ... be wary of all the online/learn from home courses they are not good, give terrible advice and contradict themselves all the time!! Complete waste of money, unless all you want is a certificate and not good knowledge!!
> 
> ...


Hi im doing course from home i think its great and they are really well known and they use posative methods, coape pet etholgy is the course i dont think they are a waste of time


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I think that is a bit rude luvmydogs!!

We all know there are different methods of training, some of which we may not like. Personally I find Jan Fennel a bit dated now, but at least she isn't physical with the dogs and from what I have read and experienced in the past, the worst she will do is ignore.

Yes, A large part of her advice is ignoring the dog and making sure you are the pack leader by thinking about doorways, feeding etc., which although may not be particularly useful, it helps people get routine and structure in their dogs lives, which a lot of owners don't have! I like the fact, she refuses to shout at the dogs and does a lot of waiting for behaviours to subside.

'there is more than one way to crack a nut'. Each to their own.

I was told that it was fairly easy to become a Jan Fennel 'listener' by doing a short course. Perhaps the OP can enlighten me as to what is involved, as it would be a worry if anyone could come along and set themselves up - mind you I suppose people are doing that all the time anways!!

Kate


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

k8t said:


> I think that is a bit rude luvmydogs!!
> 
> We all know there are different methods of training, some of which we may not like. Personally I find Jan Fennel a bit dated now, but at least she isn't physical with the dogs and from what I have read and experienced in the past, the worst she will do is ignore.
> 
> ...


Hi Kate,

It's not a short course at all, its a number of courses and they are very intense! She is far from dated, constantly reevaluating and restudying and changing her methods ... they have come a long way since she wrote the dog listener book ...

I've used her methods on hundreds of dogs and the key to success is that the dog behaves very well but through choice not from fear or "dominance" etc ... every dog i have worked with using these methods are happy contented dogs so i'm a believer!! Most of the work comes from you and working on yourself ... it's an amazing feeling to truly understand your dog and be able to work with them where they are working with you because they want to!

The trouble i have with home courses is that there is no practical at all, and do debate or discussion ... you just read what they tell you and learn it and regurgitate it to clients ... i prefer to understand who where what and why so that i can apply my theories to every problem not just the ones in the courses!

This is all of course my own opinion though and everyone is entitled to theirs!

I do agree though that so many people spend couple hundred quid on internet course and then set up businesses advising people etc it terrifies me as making the wrong move with a dog can be very dangerous, mostly to the dog as it may end up rehomed or worse ...

That's not to say anyone on here doing a course is like that but i've known of quite a few people to end up making the dogs worse and causing more problems because they dont take the time to observe dogs and understand them!

Sorry for the rant but i'm very passionate about my job and dogs and i wish there were more governing bodies to regulate the industry ... its living animals we're dealing with!!!

Ok waffle over!!!!

Helen


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

martey said:


> no i found it i think silk mill? ls16? im in ls13 sorry lol x:blush:


Marty,

My number is 07986359127, give me a call if you want to talk further!! Not sure why the website not loading!!

Helen


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> darn -
> thanks, helen, but i am in the USA.  ah, well.
> i appreciate the reply, tho!
> 
> ...


Terry,

don't fret ... they do courses all over the world now ... not as often as the UK but worth investigating if you're interested etc ... dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding

Helen


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

k8t said:


> Hi
> 
> Welcome to the forum. I used to work as a dog trainer, not too far from you, in Selby, ocassionally I lectured at an animal care college in Leeds, was in Horsforth? and at Askam Bryan, just outside York.
> 
> ...


Hi Kate,

Is it Park Lane College you're talking about? They do offer some courses still!

I work on my own at present but considering taking a work experince person from one of those courses in the summer!

Helen


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

k8t said:


> I think that is a bit rude luvmydogs!!


Why is it rude?? I asked a simple question! (to which I have not yet had a reply........)


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

It was the Dog Whisperer Book that I read, although probably around 6 years ago now, so as you say, it will have been updated! In the past I have taken some of her ideas and used them where I thought an owner and dog would benefit.

Interesting to hear about the course and I stand corrected, I knew nothing about it, just what I had been told!

I too enjoy 'going' somewhere for a course (seems like an age since I have), , although have done one correspondence course which was very good for making me think and find out info. However, I have also learnt so much, during the evening, after a course, usually with a drink or two - just talking dogs, or playing games with our dogs!

Yes, I think it was Park Lane, we used to have work experience people with us, the standard was good then. In fact, I took one girl on as Kennel Staff and she is still there (8 years later!), now working as a trainer.

Kate


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Why is it rude?? I asked a simple question! (to which I have not yet had a reply........)


IMO I felt that it was a little abrupt, purely as it had no introduction to the message, or aknowledgement of the OP. Just very to the point!!

It came across to me, as being a bit more than just a question and perhaps more of a criticism of a method - I think it was the 'honestly' part - but that is only my take on it. 

Kate


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

oops - yes, I admit I can be a little too 'to the point' at times. Apologies if I offended anyone. I'd still like an answer tho.......


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> oops - yes, I admit I can be a little too 'to the point' at times. Apologies if I offended anyone. I'd still like an answer tho.......


Hehe you make me laugh


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Why is it rude?? I asked a simple question! (to which I have not yet had a reply........)


i'm sorry i didnt reply ... i missed it ... it's not about eating over your dog's bowl, its about gesture eating ... if the dog believes that you have eaten some of the meal first and given him the leftovers the theory is that it sends a clear message to the dog that you higher in the pecking order. It is one of the simplest ways of sending this message and also one of the most powerful. Food is key to a dog's survival whether you believe they descend from wolves or not ... it's all about how you do it, but doing only this is not going to help your dog, there are other key elements that combined with this technique that will help your dog to relax and live a chilled out life!

I hope this helps a bit?!

Helen

p.s i didnt take it as rude don't worry!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks for the reply. I used to do all that stuff (admittedly it was from the original book) but I have read so much lately about dominance and pack order not being important, I'm now confused.  My new pup is the most submissive dog I've ever had, but will dart through the door before everyone. I read something recently (I think it was on this forum) that in wolf packs, the less important members of the family are much more likely to go ahead of the more important ones.


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Thanks for the reply. I used to do all that stuff (admittedly it was from the original book) but I have read so much lately about dominance and pack order not being important, I'm now confused.  My new pup is the most submissive dog I've ever had, but will dart through the door before everyone. I read something recently (I think it was on this forum) that in wolf packs, the less important members of the family are much more likely to go ahead of the more important ones.


To be perfectly honest with you, if you're not having problems with your pup then I wouldn't worry too much about the doorways thing ... it's not something I really ever worry about or ask my clients to do ... I think it's really useful to teach them the "wait" command so that if you do need to go through the door first then you can make them let you go first etc (i.e if you're carrying something!) but its not about being a pack leader by going through doors first at all ... especially when they are young ... pups in wolf packs get away with all kinds of things!!

The only other advantage of teaching them the wait command is so that they don't get into the habit of just running through doors ahead purely from a safety aspect ... its ok to do it in the house but if you're opening the front door and they run straight ahead then they could end up on a road or something, so its all about teaching them the patience at the front door!! But this isn't about behaviorist work at all, just safety!!

Many dogs don't need clear signals about pack leadership, it totally depends on their personalities and they strong willedness (if that's a word!) hence why there are many dogs out there who are happy and content without people following my beliefs! Many dogs are quite happy being lower in the pecking order - they're the sensible ones as they dont want the job in the first place!!! Sounds like all is going fine for you so don't worry!!

Helen :smile5:


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi could i just ask somthing, do you believe in pack rules for your dog and do your use Rank Reduction Programs


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Where do you stand on Jan Fennell stating dogs dont need to be exercised?


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

staflove said:


> Hi could i just ask somthing, do you believe in pack rules for your dog and do your use Rank Reduction Programs


Hiya,

I do believe in pack rules ... however i'm very cautious in saying this because i believe in what i believe to be pack rules!! So many different people out there that think pack rules are 1 thing and others think its another so depends on how you define pack rules!!!

I do beleive that if you are good leader then your dogs with love and more importantly respect you and therefore will be very happy and relaxed in your company and be happy to choose to do the things you ask of it!

I don't believe in dominance and submission and i dislike these words as they do not represent my beliefs! I also dont believe that the word force or punish etc come into it either! And i dont believe you need to "fake" bite your dog to show leadership!!

Hope that answers your question?!?!!

Helen


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Where do you stand on Jan Fennell stating dogs dont need to be exercised?


I think that when she has said this that it has been totally taken out of context ... she is not saying that a dog does not need to be exercised full stop, what she is saying is that you should not take your dog out if you are not in the right frame of mind as you could wind up in problem situations ... so what she is saying is if you really do feel in the wrong mental place then the dog can cope without being exercised or getting out, its not critical to their well being to be walked if they could end up in the wrong mental place, she does not say that they dont ever need to be walked. She walks her dogs all the time and totally agrees that ideally they get lots of exercise and outdoor time she's just saying that you have to make sure its in the right frame of mind and under the right circumstances etc.

Helen


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

I would advise against anyone going to see a Jan Fennell 'Dog listener'.

People should have a google and see what clients say about them, rip off merchants who's methods aren't even based on science, it's a load of clap trap. 'Amichien bonding' 

10 pages long I predict.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Helping Canines said:


> Hiya,
> 
> I do believe in pack rules ... however i'm very cautious in saying this because i believe in what i believe to be pack rules!! So many different people out there that think pack rules are 1 thing and others think its another so depends on how you define pack rules!!!
> 
> ...


Thanks Helen, only asking as im training to be a behaviourist and love it and its nice to see how other trainers and behaviourist work thats all, im doing a course at the moment its a bit intence but working my way through it x


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

London Dogwalker said:


> I would advise against anyone going to see a Jan Fennell 'Dog listener'.
> 
> People should have a google and see what clients say about them, rip off merchants who's methods aren't even based on science, it's a load of clap trap. 'Amichien bonding'
> 
> 10 pages long I predict.


Hiya,

I appreciate what you have said but I think that there is a thing where if you have a bad experience you are more likely to tell people than if you have a good one? Also I would say that quite often people expect behaviourists to go round and "fix" their dog and are not prepared to put in the work themselves so may become disgruntled that they actually have to do things!! Also quite often people only do the bits they want to do and a lot of behaviourist work relies on every element being executed and followed through all the time. Hence many people blame the behaviourist and slate them?!

I also think that you would be able to find lots of positive reviews from people about Jan Fennell dog listeners too. I am not an official dog listener with Jan Fennell however I totally support her theories, i have seen them work time and time again and i have also witnessed many dogs that other behaviourists have said they cant help be helped with these methods. I also think that you shouldn't make a generalisation about every person that adopts these beliefs!

You are of course entitled to your own opinion and I totally respect that, I have just had a lot of success with it and I have a very long list of clients that too have turned their dogs round and are now living very happily with them.

The comment about science I'm afraid I don't take on board ... is there a real science for human behaviour? No, its all based on theories from observing and studying how we behave and act, there is no definite fact in human psychology either - yes there are biological elements, however no one will ever truly be able to guarantee with scientific fact how a human's emotion etc will affect how they behave any more than with a dog, so i'm sorry i dont think the science argument stands up. The same with religion? Millions of people live their lives based on values and thoughts that have absolutely no scientific fact either.

I totally appreciate your comments though and hope I haven't come across as anything but "in the debate"!!! I like to be challenged on my theories and thoughts etc but I will also defend them!!!

Out of interest have you ever used a Jan Fennell Dog Listener?

Thanks again for your thoughts on it.

Helen


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

staflove said:


> Thanks Helen, only asking as im training to be a behaviourist and love it and its nice to see how other trainers and behaviourist work thats all, im doing a course at the moment its a bit intence but working my way through it x


Hiya,

Good for you that you are doing a course! Which one?

They can be intense and there is a lot to learn ... try to train into your instincts and spend as much time as possible observing as many different dogs and situations as you can so you can start to identify patterns and the results of different actions and communications!

Best of luck with it all and welcome to the world of dog behaviourists!!

Helen


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

_I appreciate what you have said but I think that there is a thing where if you have a bad experience you are more likely to tell people than if you have a good one? Also I would say that quite often people expect behaviourists to go round and "fix" their dog and are not prepared to put in the work themselves so may become disgruntled that they actually have to do things!! Also quite often people only do the bits they want to do and a lot of behaviourist work relies on every element being executed and followed through all the time. Hence many people blame the behaviourist and slate them?!_

How I so understand this... One of the reasons I haven't got back into doing consults to be honest. When I was working with assistance dogs, I knew that I could take action by bringing a dog back in for training at a centre, if working with the dog in the home didn't work out - however, I knew that if the owner followed the guidelines and put everything in to practice it would definately work (not part of it, or picking out the bits they liked doing!), but if it didn't, I could follow it up properly.

When giving paying owners advice, there is always the age old thing of wanting a easy fix with minimal effort and then when it doesn't wholly solve the problem they are not happy - having said this, no one ever said to me they weren't happy, but I have heard them slag off other people they have been to and what they were advised didn't work. In fact often people would express surprise and say 'the other person told me that' and I would think , well if you knew it why didn't you do it!!!!

The is the very reason I haven't gone back to it, although I am aways being asked stuff, the phone has stopped ringing!

Kate

Anyway, a


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Helping Canines said:


> Hiya,
> 
> Good for you that you are doing a course! Which one?
> 
> ...


Hi Helen

I am doing the Coape course on behaviour i really enjoy it but its hard and very intence i get training with a my behaviourist and hands on every weekend i just love working with dogs and see good results in the end thats what makes me smile, when you get a dog that as missed its critical period of development and is very fearfull and as no confidence, and then you work with it and see a massive change in behaviour its just a real buzz for me


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## Helping Canines (Feb 9, 2010)

staflove said:


> Hi Helen
> 
> I am doing the Coape course on behaviour i really enjoy it but its hard and very intence i get training with a my behaviourist and hands on every weekend i just love working with dogs and see good results in the end thats what makes me smile, when you get a dog that as missed its critical period of development and is very fearfull and as no confidence, and then you work with it and see a massive change in behaviour its just a real buzz for me


Ditto!!! There's nothing better than working with both dog and human together and seeing their relationship develop from destructive to happy and rewarding!! I love my job so very much and I'm really pleased to hear that you are doing so well!!

Hurrah for happy dogs!!

Helen


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

staflove said:


> when you get a dog that as missed its critical period of development and is very fearfull and as no confidence,


Which critical period is most important for this? I have a very fearful Bullmastiff (no aggression) but I didn't get her until she was 10 months.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

hi helen, welcome to the forum!

from reading the thread, looks like you can bring some interesting viewpoints to our 'debates' on here!


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