# Can guide dogs be trained using positive punishment( my friend says it can is he lyin



## chris123

Hello
My friend(who lies all time)
Seems to think they train guide dogs using positive punishment
I would imagine that is a lie and actually dangerous because they could bite.
He also says he trained one himself for his uncle
Can that actually be done?
Or does a guide dog have to be officially registered?
I'm not saying you should I;m just trying to catch him out


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## Mophie

From what I know through my Aunt and Cousin, they are trained through postive reinforcement if that helps.


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## smokeybear

chris123 said:


> Hello
> My friend(who lies all time)
> Seems to think they train guide dogs using positive punishment
> I would imagine that is a lie and actually dangerous because they could bite.
> He also says he trained one himself for his uncle
> Can that actually be done?
> Or does a guide dog have to be officially registered?
> I'm not saying you should I;m just trying to catch him out


I do not know of any Guide Dog that has not been trained and supplied by the GDBA.

I know several trainers who work with GDBA and they do not use positive punishment.

If your friend is skilled enough to train a Guide Dog, you may wish to ask him where he learned these skills, who from and why he does not train dogs for a living.


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## SLB

I've heard of guide dogs being trained with choke chains and some with prong collars, so your friend isn't a total liar maybe he's just caught the wrong end of the stick or something..

If you watch the guide dog puppy advert the one with Scarlett the puppy speaking I think, when they're about to get on the bus, the handler jerks her back slightly - we're always told in class to lure them back into position, never to jerk or pull.. Thats one thing I picked up on.. 

Until recently, some gundogs were trained using negative reinforcement and it still goes off today - usually if the owner or trainer decides a quick fix is needed.. 

Also you can train a guide dog yourself but I'm sure it has to pass a certain test for it to be official (and if not there should be). There was a news story a while back about a GSD who was a guide dog but she bit a child.. she was only just over a year, on the forum where the story was put, we concluded that it could possibly be a home trained one thats why she was so young and working.
I've taught Louie to fetch me things out of a drawer, then go back and close it, he can pick me things up off the floor too, fetch me a cloth.. I've taught him things guide dogs do know - so it is possible..


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## smokeybear

SLB said:


> I've heard of guide dogs being trained with choke chains and some with prong collars, so your friend isn't a total liar maybe he's just caught the wrong end of the stick or something..
> 
> *I have heard that Santa Claus really exists, does not make it so. *
> 
> If you watch the guide dog puppy advert the one with Scarlett the puppy speaking I think, when they're about to get on the bus, the handler jerks her back slightly - we're always told in class to lure them back into position, never to jerk or pull.. Thats one thing I picked up on..
> 
> *A blind person cannot lure a dog into position.  Sometimes unless you have worked with assistance dogs you do not see the whole picture. *
> 
> Until recently, some gundogs were trained using negative reinforcement and it still goes off today - usually if the owner or trainer decides a quick fix is needed..
> 
> *Many dogs in all disciplines are trained using negative reinforcement and positive punishment.*
> 
> Also you can train a guide dog yourself but I'm sure it has to pass a certain test for it to be official (and if not there should be). There was a news story a while back about a GSD who was a guide dog but she bit a child.. she was only just over a year, on the forum where the story was put, we concluded that it could possibly be a home trained one thats why she was so young and working.
> 
> *I wonder who these people are that train Guide Dogs themselves, what their insurance is, their qualifications, the back up service they provide to the handlers etc.* ?
> 
> *I think people often misuse the term "Guide Dog" as they do "Guard Dog" without fully understand the true meaning of the term. I know someone who says she has an "Assistance Dog" but she has not, that is just term SHE has used for her dog. *
> 
> I've taught Louie to fetch me things out of a drawer, then go back and close it, he can pick me things up off the floor too, fetch me a cloth.. I've taught him things guide dogs do know - so it is possible..


What is that you have taught Louie that Guide Dogs do Aimee? And how have you taught it, eg crossing the road, avoiding overhangs, projections, etc


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## newfiesmum

chris123 said:


> Hello
> My friend(who lies all time)
> Seems to think they train guide dogs using positive punishment
> I would imagine that is a lie and actually dangerous because they could bite.
> He also says he trained one himself for his uncle
> Can that actually be done?
> Or does a guide dog have to be officially registered?
> I'm not saying you should I;m just trying to catch him out


There was a woman on a forum I used to belong to who reckoned she had trained her Jack Russells as assistance dogs. Never heard of a JR being an assistance dog and she only decided she was disabled when a genuine assistance dog owner joined the forum.

She also reckoned she had shown her American Pit Bulls at Crufts so I wouldn't take too much notice!


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## SLB

smokeybear said:


> What is that you have taught Louie that Guide Dogs do Aimee? And how have you taught it, eg crossing the road, avoiding overhangs, projections, etc


Guide dogs know how to pick things off the floor for people and open and close things - I said all that.. and it's all been done with positive reinforcement..

I never said it was true - just said that her friend could of caught the wrong end of the stick..

It's true a blind person cannot lure a dog into position but a handler who is training it can..

And it was just an article that was put up - I don't know the dog, person or anyone involved.. so you can't really pick at my post for that..


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## smokeybear

SLB said:


> Guide dogs know how to pick things off the floor for people and open and close things - I said all that.. and it's all been done with positive reinforcement..
> 
> *Yes well all pet dogs can be taught to retrieve and open and close doors.*
> 
> It's true a blind person cannot lure a dog into position but a handler who is training it can..
> 
> *THis is true but when you train a dog for a particular person/impairment, you have to take into consideration what that person for whom the dog is destined will do, due to that impairment, that is the art of dog training.
> 
> *


*

That is why when training therapy dogs you may for example get them used to peculiar, jerky, sudden movements and sounds.*


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## alan g a

I am told that reward and punishment does not work. Punshing dog for something it did (or didn't ) after the event only confuses the dog. It doesn't know what it has done wrong.


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## newfiesmum

alan g a said:


> I am told that reward and punishment does not work. Punshing dog for something it did (or didn't ) after the event only confuses the dog. It doesn't know what it has done wrong.


It is all about timing. Any correction or reward has to be immediate. If the dog comes back to you he gets his reward straight away so he knows he has got it for coming back. Even if it has taken forever to get him to come back, he still gets that reward when he gets there, so hopefully next time he will not take so long about it!


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## smokeybear

alan g a said:


> I am told that reward and punishment does not work. Punshing dog for something it did (or didn't ) after the event only confuses the dog. It doesn't know what it has done wrong.


Dogs have no concept of right or wrong, they are amoral.

The opposite of reward is not punishment, but no reward. 

There are two types of punishment.

Positive punishment +P where you ADD something unpleasant eg you hit it

Negative punishment -P where you TAKE AWAY something the dog wants eg food, toy

It is impossible to train ANY animal without using punishment.

More enlightened people use NEGATIVE punishment as the fallout is reduced; one of the other issues with positive punishment is the timing and scale of it should, in theory, be so good that the dog never does it again.

If it is poorly executed one of two things happen.

The positive punishment is insufficient so dog repeats behaviour and the only thing you can do is ESCALATE it.

If the positive punishment is too strong, you can teach the dog to fear you.


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## Spellweaver

smokeybear said:


> It is impossible to train ANY animal without using punishment.


Hang on a minute - what about positive reinforcement?


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## Spellweaver

chris123 said:


> Hello
> My friend(who lies all time)
> Seems to think they train guide dogs using positive punishment
> I would imagine that is a lie and actually dangerous because they could bite.
> He also says he trained one himself for his uncle
> Can that actually be done?
> Or does a guide dog have to be officially registered?
> I'm not saying you should I;m just trying to catch him out


This link will exlplain it all to you 

Guide Dogs for the Blind: Guide Dog Training


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## chris123

Hi
I would imagine that some trainers train them that way but not a lot 
He even made a the name of the training school, touch love training school
He says he taught a guide dog through smacking him on the nose and rewarding him when he is good but I doubt he did.
It is very hard to train guide dogs and takes years to train and half the dogs can't do it so I expect he is lying.
I just wanted to catch him out on this one because he lye's all the time and it does my head in


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## RAINYBOW

The people i know who have puppy walked for Guide Dogs have a very strict criteria that they have to follow. I would be very suprised if smacking a ddog was part of that criteria but the rules are very rigid on what you can and cant do.


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## ClaireandDaisy

_'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean  neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master  that's all.' _

Alice in Wonderland.

IMO `Positive Punishment` is Science Speak. Like Collateral Damage. 
If it`s punishment, what`s positive about it. 
We can debate what words mean to us ...
or we can train an animal who doesn`t understand language but who blooming well knows when it hurts.


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## chris123

I got muddled up with the worlds but someone explained it to me the other day.

Positive and negative is a mathematical term

Positive punishment means to add something the dog does not like
Negative means to remove something the dog likes.
So when people use negative punishment they don't train the dog using, smacking or shock collars or anything like that they just don't give him a treat when he is bad.


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## Sarah1983

Spellweaver said:


> Hang on a minute - what about positive reinforcement?


Everyone I know who uses positive reinforcement to train also uses negative punishment to some extent. I really don't see how you can live with a dog and use ONLY positive reinforcement.


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## Sarah1983

chris123 said:


> So when people use negative punishment they don't train the dog using, smacking or shock collars or anything like that they just don't give him a treat when he is bad.


Or we put the leash back on the peg when the dog starts screeching and bouncing when we pick it up. Or we close the door when the dog attempts to charge out the moment we start to open it. As far as I'm aware things like that are also classed as negative punishment because you're taking away what the dog wants (ie: the leash going on and a walk, the door opening so it can go through it).


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## alan g a

newfiesmum said:


> It is all about timing. Any correction or reward has to be immediate. If the dog comes back to you he gets his reward straight away so he knows he has got it for coming back. Even if it has taken forever to get him to come back, he still gets that reward when he gets there, so hopefully next time he will not take so long about it!


The reward part I can understand, but IMO punishment has no place in the training of any animal. How can you punish an animal that has no concept of right and wrong?


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## newfiesmum

alan g a said:


> The reward part I can understand, but IMO punishment has no place in the training of any animal. How can you punish an that has no concept of right and wrong?


I completely agree, I was only pointing out the way it is done.


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## alan g a

I have trained a number of dogs. Training parrots has been a hobby of mine for the best part of my adult life. My success rate is about 95%. I have NEVER resorted too or even thought about punishing an animal for getting it wrong.


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## smokeybear

Spellweaver said:


> Hang on a minute - what about positive reinforcement?


What about it?

You cannot train ONLY with positive reinforcement. 

There is Positive Reinforcement +R
There is Negative Reinforcement -R

As I said before NOBODY can train ANY animal with SOME sort of punishment.

And it is the DOG (in this case) that decides what is reinforcing and what is punishing.


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## smokeybear

alan g a said:


> I have trained a number of dogs. Training parrots has been a hobby of mine for the best part of my adult life. My success rate is about 95%. I have NEVER resorted too or even thought about punishing an animal for getting it wrong.


I look foward to attending your seminars, reading your book, watching the DVD and your peer reviewed evidence based papers demonstrating that you can train ANY animal without punishment.

This will provide a complete revelation to all those who train using Operant Conditioning.


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## smokeybear

ClaireandDaisy said:


> _'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean  neither more nor less.'
> 
> 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
> 
> 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master  that's all.' _
> 
> Alice in Wonderland.
> 
> IMO `Positive Punishment` is Science Speak. Like Collateral Damage.
> If it`s punishment, what`s positive about it.
> We can debate what words mean to us ...
> or we can train an animal who doesn`t understand language but who blooming well knows when it hurts.


Yes often the argument that is raised by people who have absolutely no understanding of the theory of how dogs learn.

It is not "science" speak at all, it, like many other words and terms have different connotations depending on the context in which it/they is/are used.

So "positive" in this context means ADDING. Simple really. 

You can give "negative" punishment which is REMOVING something, simple really.

OF course "negative" can mean all sorts of things too, like a photographic negative. 

It has nothing to do with what the words mean to US but what they mean in the context of dog training and further what they mean when people use terms with which they are not familiar.

Many people read without understanding.
Many people traing without understanding

I do not have to hurt my dogs to achieve what I want, but the FACT remains that if I DID, then it would be termed "positive punishment".


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## smokeybear

Sarah1983 said:


> Or we put the leash back on the peg when the dog starts screeching and bouncing when we pick it up. Or we close the door when the dog attempts to charge out the moment we start to open it. As far as I'm aware things like that are also classed as negative punishment because you're taking away what the dog wants (ie: the leash going on and a walk, the door opening so it can go through it).


Absolutely spot on.


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## Sarah1983

I find confusion seems to set in and wires get crossed whenever the quadrants are brought up. A lot of people see "punishment" and immediately think of things like hitting, jerking, yelling at the dog. And a lot of people see "reinforcement" and immediately think it's good. However I could be squeezing my dogs ear until he complies with whatever I want him to do and the reinforcement would be the relief from pain when he obeys. I have to admit, I still struggle with the terms at times though and I did Psychology!

I steer clear of positive punishment (hitting, kicking, jerking etc) and negative reinforcement. I use mostly positive reinforcement to train, I set the dog up to succeed and I reward the behaviour I want. However I have no problems with using negative punishment whenever it's appropriate. For example if my dog takes off around the house screaming with excitement when I pick his leash up then I'm going to drop the leash and sit down. No point me asking for any behaviour then,he's too excited to think (and back when this behaviour was happening he didn't know any commands anyway).


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