# What would you do



## stevenco (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi I sold a kitten about 18 months ago for a pet and about 6 months ago she emailed me to say that gccf would not put her on the active reg. I was like you can not do that only the breeder can. And you got her for a pet so in till you get her spayed you will not get her papers and she will got be going on the active reg.

I've just got a letter from her vets today to say she got her spayed but I think she had a few litters from her do you know if the vets will tell me and if she had do you think I'm in the wrong to not send her the cats papers.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Withholding papers never stops BYBs as they have no intention of registering their kittens.

Since you have the vet's letter I can't see that you can withhold papers.

The only sure way I know of stopping BYBs breeding from your kittens is to neuter them before they go.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

If you're not early neutering surely you're checking in at 5-6 months to ensure the spay was done?

I know a breeder who before she early neutered would send reminders well in advance, I think she requested the vets letter and also a photo

As the cat is now spayed, the owner's finally fulfilled her side of the agreement so you need to issue the papers. The vet won't be able to tell you the cats records without the owner granting permission


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Have not you been in contact since the kitten left and asking for neutering proof since age 5-6 months??  I could not do that I did a countdown for neutering with texts and emails! Are the kittens chipped? You can ask her to get the vet to scan the chip and write a letter of the cat that was neutered along with the chip if you are worried that she may send in fake neutering? And call the vet to confirm the neutering?


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

You could simply ask her if she will agree to you talking to her vet, as she has left the s[paying far beyond the the 5 months or whatever that it should have been done, you will soon know by her answer, 
I would bet that she has had at least one litter, otherwise why leave it so long


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Christ I would have been on the phone to them months ago , making sure she had been spayed 

I text,phone email and make sure I get confirmation that they have been done 

Am no there case all the time


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The vet will be prepared to confirm they wrote the letter so that is a step towards putting your mind at ease. If that checks out then why not hand over the papers?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I used to worry and spend so much time chasing neuter forms back, now I early neuter it is so much less stress both for me and the kittens as they get over their operations so much quicker.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> I used to worry and spend so much time chasing neuter forms back, now I early neuter it is so much less stress both for me and the kittens as they get over their operations so much quicker.


I would hate for my babies to find themselves at BYBs... But withholding papers does not guarantee you anything and they say it is also illegal? 

I just watched Cat Protection video on early neutering, they do it from 9 weeks!? But that is them - rescuers of the moggies. And how do you practically deal with a pedigree litter? And at what age? Can it be all done by 14 weeks old? And a neutering of a female would leave a shaven patch which would not disappear by the time they go to their new homes. Do you ever have problems with the new owners about that? Or would it just mean a potential BYB rising her/his head?

I would really like to find out the practical experience of cat breeders on early neutering as the idea appeals to me in general. But I want to gather more information first.

Catcoonz, in case if you do not feel like sharing in here, could you please send me a personal message on the subject? I will be very grateful.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Both can be done by 14 weeks. Cats protection have an early neuter page to help find a vet.

I believe withholding gccf papers is OK if both parties agree in writing beforehand but as many have said it doesn't stop by breeding.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Early neutering is something I have been researching and am hoping to go with this year - my new vet has done a lot of work with the Celia Hammond Trust and for her early neutering is routine.

Other than that I had my suspicions last year with a couple of viewings so just casually dropped into the conversation "oh and I do early neuter my kittens before they leave". Funnily enough both parties left fairly pronto.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

wicket said:


> Other than that I had my suspicions last year with a couple of viewings so just casually dropped into the conversation "oh and I do early neuter my kittens before they leave". Funnily enough both parties left fairly pronto.


That is a very good idea. I will do it next time. :thumbup:


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Not everyone looking for pedigree kittens are Byb. Some buyers are put off by early neutering, some want to decide what is best for their own kittens. 

Oh and texts, emails and phone calls to remind to neuter their own kitten?  I'm sorry but that screams I don't trust you with my precious kitten!

I don't like neutering contracts, but if you make it very clear that they won't get paperwork until neutering done then that's enough. Photographs of the wound??


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

wicket said:


> Other than that I had my suspicions last year with a couple of viewings so just casually dropped into the conversation "oh and I do early neuter my kittens before they leave". Funnily enough both parties left fairly pronto.


The last person I bought a kitten from said it quite casually twice during our first visit - I think she wanted to make really sure that I had heard! Then she sent me emails throughout the operation day so that I could share the worry.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

If you are with holding any paperwork both parties must sign to acknowledge that they understand this.

Female early neutering is done underneath so it doesn't spoil the coat for viewings.

My kittens are vaccinated at 9 weeks, neutered at 10 weeks, 2nd vaccination at 12 weeks but they are held until 13/14 weeks old to ensure they have recovered from their operations.

Anybody who doesn't want a true pet the word neutered soon makes them scuttle away but if they do want a pet they are happy that they don't need the stress of neutering themselves.

Ive found the males both older and kittens come back fine.
Females, the older takes a week plus to recover but the kittens the next day are back to normal.

Some vets wont early neuter until kittens are 2kgs whereas others say 1kg, its just a case of phoning around but ask the vet not the receptionist.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Some buyers are put off by early neutering, some want to decide what is best for their own kittens.


But they're not their kittens at that point. They still belong to the breeder.

Don't disagree with you over the texts, emails and phone calls thing though. At that point they belong to the buyer.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> its just a case of phoning around


Out of interest, how far 'around' would you consider reasonable. What would you consider the farthest you would travel with kittens for early neutering?


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

havoc said:


> But they're not their kittens at that point. They still belong to the breeder.
> 
> Don't disagree with you over the texts, emails and phone calls thing though. At that point they belong to the buyer.


Ok, well in that case breeders should make it very clear that they early neuter before the buyers visit the kittens. Usually there are emails and phone calls before visits. Drop it into conversation then.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sorry, I cant do links but there is a link somewhere that gives you early neutering vets.

I am lucky as I have 2 vets within 8 miles who early neuters but if I didn't I would set a limit on 50 miles, yes I know you are going to say that's along way to travel but I do feel strongly that the benefits of EN outweight the travelling. 

I have also found that if you speak with the receptionist they say not before 6 months, but if you explain reasons to the vet most are reasonable and will EN but then it does go on the weight of kittens.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

MollyMlo said:


> Not everyone looking for pedigree kittens are Byb. Some buyers are putwouldby early neutering, some want to decide what is best for their own kittens.
> 
> Oh and texts, emails and phone calls to remind to neuter their own kitten?  I'm sorry but that screams I don't trust you with my precious kitten!
> 
> I Don't like neutering contracts, but if you make it very clear that they won't get paperwork until neutering done then that's enough. Photographs of the wound??


I must admit - if a breeder of one of my cats repeatedly texted and emailed about neutering then i would be annoyed as well. I would fully understand their worry about byb's but I would feel insulted by the lack of trust (but willingness to take my money). Would have no problems at all with an email at 6 months subtly asking the question. I personally would be more than happy getting an early neutered kitten - it does seem an obvious solution to the problem.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

MollyMilo said:


> I'm sorry but that screams I don't trust you with my precious kitten!


Trust is not always an easy matter. And yes, MY kittens ARE precious to me.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> Out of interest, how far 'around' would you consider reasonable. What would you consider the farthest you would travel with kittens for early neutering?


Personally I would not have a problem travelling for 50 miles or more for an operation with a good vet. Considering I am in London - should be able to find one within this range?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Sorry, I cant do links but there is a link somewhere that gives you early neutering vets.


I've seen it, people often post it up. There's quite a range in what vets consider 'early' when you do phone around. Many start at 16 weeks.



> Personally I would not have a problem travelling for 50 miles or more for an operation with a good vet.


Have to say I consider that too far to travel home with young, post op kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> MY kittens ARE precious to me


They aren't yours once you've sold them to other people.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> Not everyone looking for pedigree kittens are Byb. Some buyers are put off by early neutering, some want to decide what is best for their own kittens.
> 
> Oh and texts, emails and phone calls to remind to neuter their own kitten?  I'm sorry but that screams I don't trust you with my precious kitten!
> 
> I don't like neutering contracts, but if you make it very clear that they won't get paperwork until neutering done then that's enough. Photographs of the wound??


Neutering contracts dont make a blind bit of difference to a BYB neither does withholding the paperwork as it makes no difference to them whether they have it or not. I know a mum from my sons school who presents as a lovely "I want a family pet" person, she is sold kittens in good faith and they go on to have back to back litters, a total breach of the breeders trust - she also keeps an unregistered stud boy in her kitchen.

I understand that not everyone will agree with early neutering but then it is your choice to go elsewhere. As for following people up with emails to remind them re neutering I have just done this with my last litter - as well as getting some lovely updates, I also had a couple of "thank yous" for the reminders, especially from one lovely family who hadnt had a cat before. I make it quite clear to my kitten buyers that I will remind them about neutering nearer the time when they purchase the kitten - again they are welcome to go elsewhere if they dont like it.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> They aren't yours once you've sold them to other people.


I agree and that is why I am trying to figure out the best solution to the problem created for everybody by unscrupulous BYBs.

Talking about "precious" - here they are. "Top of the World!" (world meaning - their own igloo)


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I must be a bit peculiar in that I have trust in every person to whom I sell a kitten.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> But they're not their kittens at that point. They still belong to the breeder.
> <snip>


Exactly. And I deam it in my kitten's best interests to be neutered before they leave me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kotanushka said:


> Personally I would not have a problem travelling for 50 miles or more for an operation with a good vet. Considering I am in London - should be able to find one within this range?


I would think of it in time not distance. How many within 30 minutes drive? 40 minutes? 50 minutes?

The CP page should be helpful:
Find an Early Neutering Vet


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

I must admit I am quite confident about the 2 families who are getting our 2 boys (the girl is for keeps). But that's because this time we had only 2 kittens to sell and around 30 e-mails and phone calls from the hopefuls... If a family lost an OLD cat of the same breed and colour last year and is grieving - that gives me hope the new one will be treated right. 
But as I was told - selling kittens is a huge PR task. And I am starting to believe it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The CP page should be helpful:
> Find an Early Neutering Vet


That's the link which keeps being posted up and many of those vets consider 16 weeks to be early neutering. That's no use to a breeder.

I do agree that time of journey is as important as distance but the two tend to be linked  I currently travel around 25 minutes to my vet, longer in heavy traffic. They are listed on that CPL site but won't neuter before 16 weeks/2kg. The nearest one I have found which will TRULY early neuter is much further. I think the risks outweigh the benefits with that journey. I've never sold a kitten to anyone I didn't trust and so far that trust has not been betrayed. Admittedly I turn away a lot more buyers than I accept.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> That's the link which keeps being posted up and many of those vets consider 16 weeks to be early neutering. That's no use to a breeder.
> <snip>


It's the best we have unless you know better. I found my EN vet through it - they neuter at 13 weeks.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It's the best we have unless you know better.


I'm not saying there's anything better. I am saying that all the vets on it have differing ideas of 'early'.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

50 Miles is a long way if you don't drive, I had someone who after buying a kitten from me, when I first started, sign a contract, after she had paid said I would like a litter, I told her if the kitten wasn't spayed with proof from her vet she wouldn't get the [papers, she didn't either,]


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I have quite a few clinics close by but choose a breeding specialist clinic 90 mins away. My kittens are healthy and robust, a little car ride is of no concern, they tend to just sleep.

I have also delivered or picked up kittens for breeders who don't drive, or have to work, just what we do here helping each other.

EN is extremely common here and breeders have been doing it for decades, there are still some vets who won't, but it's not hard to go elsewhere.
Most pet buyers ask to make sure the kitten comes neutered. In some states it's a legal requirement, along with microchipping and vaccinating, even on moggie litters


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Kotanushka said:


> I would hate for my babies to find themselves at BYBs... But withholding papers does not guarantee you anything and they say it is also illegal?
> 
> I just watched Cat Protection video on early neutering, they do it from 9 weeks!? But that is them - rescuers of the moggies. And how do you practically deal with a pedigree litter? And at what age? Can it be all done by 14 weeks old? And a neutering of a female would leave a shaven patch which would not disappear by the time they go to their new homes. Do you ever have problems with the new owners about that? Or would it just mean a potential BYB rising her/his head?
> 
> ...


I have been EN for about 3 years now, have had done them at 9 weeks and 10 weeks, recovered before even coming home, little shaven patch is growing back by the time they go, recovery at home with their littermates and mum and human mum so less stress, less drugs used and it prevents them from being used for breeding In the wrong hand, I travel further for this and pay double the normal neutering price for the pleasure and would NOT change a thing for the peace of mind it brings and everyone that comes to be is so pleased that they don't have to go through the neutering process with their new baby, they just get to take then home and love them!

Met fantastic vets, vets who now train other vets and EN all over the world and give talks and train up vet nurses now 

Got a few links that I have wrote on in the breeding section, would have to search cant find a lot of them now!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/140588-reasons-spay-neuters-your-pets.html



wicket said:


> Early neutering is something I have been researching and am hoping to go with this year - my new vet has done a lot of work with the Celia Hammond Trust and for her early neutering is routine.
> 
> Other than that I had my suspicions last year with a couple of viewings so just casually dropped into the conversation "oh and I do early neuter my kittens before they leave". Funnily enough both parties left fairly pronto.


Say it before they come round, it will save you a lot of stress and hassle of meeting people and germs possibly coming into the home! Glad you are going to do it though, I EN my British kittens, lovely kittens they turned out to be to! :001_wub:



MollyMilo said:


> Not everyone looking for pedigree kittens are Byb. Some buyers are put off by early neutering, some want to decide what is best for their own kittens.
> 
> Oh and texts, emails and phone calls to remind to neuter their own kitten?  I'm sorry but that screams I don't trust you with my precious kitten!
> 
> I don't like neutering contracts, but if you make it very clear that they won't get paperwork until neutering done then that's enough. Photographs of the wound??


Never had anyone put off by EN, only people that want to breed, or in one lovely term given to me 'get some kittens from it' or they didn't understand EN until its explained, then they are total converts! How could you not be?? Don't go to a breeder that has neutering contracts (don't know any who doesn't though?) if you want to leave them to be neutered later, although I cant think of a reason why you would? Unless the cat is ill, but then you would talk to the breeder and let them know there is a genuine reason why they cant be neutered at the 5-6month mark

I talk to my kitten owners from everyday to at least once a week, with them contacting me updating me, stories, videos and emails and then me contacting them, as we have a fantastic relationship, due to the amount I do for them before the kitten leaves we build up a strong bond, I am still chatting to people from my first litters nearly every month! Longer than some friends I have had! 

It is so foreign to me to let one of my babies go that I have put so much time effort emotionally and physically in to then ... nothing? No contact, no updates, not asking if they have been neutered?? That isn't me, I don't do things by half and I don't actually understand it either. I would rather give up now than not know where and how my babies are and make sure they are in the best homes possible.

so we are in constant chatting mode, and I would say to everyone that neutering was due on so & so date, as promised in my contract I will update everybody on the date as people get busy, people 'forget' then cats 'accidently' get older and mange to get outside... and for the sake of a couple of texts saying in nice terms 'oh no the dreaded neutering is due soon guys! eekk!' and a update on the littermates for everyone, I see nothing wrong with that at all. Most of them thanked me as it just seems to slip peoples minds!

Sadly even the best are duped, and once you have been, your guard is up higher than ever before! After having people come to me stating they wanted a pet, calling up a husband in the middle of the viewing stating 'she early neuters her kittens..' and the husband clearly stating over the phone 'for god sake just tell her will neuter it and sign a contact and we will just not contact her again' and me saying 'you do realise how loudly your husband talks don't you? You can leave now!'  (wanting to breed a Bengal to a Russian blue, after telling me the RB was neutered - turns out they didn't bother also signed a neuter contract for that kitten to)

Then the lady who Promised to neuter then told me its her kitten to do as she wishes and she will let it out a 2nd floor window at 6 months old to breed 'it', the back yard breeder who only wanted a boy and girl from me... littermates to breed. People sending in neutering proof of different kittens to the breeder, saying a cat has died then kittens appearing from the same kitten 9 months later. Then many other stories from me and other breeders I know, Id rather send a couple of texts for peace of mind or go out of my way to EN, which I do. Because sadly people like this, do exist!!

If that makes me over protective, fussy, choosy who gets one of my babies, its because I AM  :ihih: And my kitten owners love that I am, they mean too much to me and them not to be!  :devil:


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm not sure why 16 weeks would be an issue. Here kittens go at 12 weeks but there are breeds that are kept until 16-18 weeks and new owners don't mind at all.

Breeders would rather keep them longer than send them out entire.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> EN is extremely common here and breeders have been doing it for decades,


It was vets from Oz who first became known for introducing it here and you are still more likely to find a practice who will do it if there is a vet from overseas or if the UK vet has at least worked with a vet from elsewhere.



> My kittens are healthy and robust, a little car ride is of no concern, they tend to just sleep.


Your kittens would not have a comfortable post op journey on many English roads. If I could guarantee a journey of 90 minutes on a pothole free main road it would be different. Driving here is the equivalent of paddock bashing much of the time.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Then the lady who Promised to neuter then told me its her kitten to do as she wishes and she will let it out a 2nd floor window at 6 months old to breed 'it', the back yard breeder who only wanted a boy and girl from me... littermates to breed. People sending in neutering proof of different kittens to the breeder, saying a cat has died then kittens appearing from the same kitten 9 months later. Then many other stories from me and other breeders I know


You've had a much more 'interesting' breeding career than I could imagine having  I've never had anything like that. I'm still in touch with the majority of my kitten buyers years down the line and they're all lovely. If I had to deal with the sort of people you describe I don't think I'd carry on breeding.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havoc said:


> You've had a much more 'interesting' breeding career than I could imagine having  I've never had anything like that. I'm still in touch with the majority of my kitten buyers years down the line and they're all lovely. If I had to deal with the sort of people you describe I don't think I'd carry on breeding.


lol I know  Was a truly awful awful women, I did not actually have a litter after that for a very long time, I did have a gut feeling about her as well, never diss miss gut feeling  But the other stories are from other breeders who also now EN, I have met some flippin odd people, think we did a thread about it a while back on peoples weird enquires lol :laugh: :001_unsure:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm not sure why 16 weeks would be an issue. Here kittens go at 12 weeks but there are breeds that are kept until 16-18 weeks and new owners don't mind at all.
> 
> Breeders would rather keep them longer than send them out entire.


Oh I understand completely that in your world any breeder who doesn't EN is no better than a BYB.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Of my four sets of kitten buyers two didn't comment, one said 'saves doing that ourselves' and the last said 'looked it up on the Internet and it doesn't seem to cause problems'. I've no reason to think they were atypical. Also had someone trying to get me to reduce the price, I pointed out that if she got one for the price she named but had to pay for neuter & chip she would have spent more in the end.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> You've had a much more 'interesting' breeding career than I could imagine having  I've never had anything like that. I'm still in touch with the majority of my kitten buyers years down the line and they're all lovely. If I had to deal with the sort of people you describe I don't think I'd carry on breeding.


I think sometimes it depends on the cat you breed - without doubt the BSH and especially the British Blue is seen as a "fast buck" by many bybs - pets for homes has as many BSH unregistered studs advertised as registered ones


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> Oh I understand completely that in your world any breeder who doesn't EN is no better than a BYB.


Sorry, I'm not sure what that has to do with not wanting to keep kittens until 16 weeks?

But on the byb topic, lots of bybs (unreg breeders) EN here too


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Here it is completely routine to neuter from 3 months. I have not yet come across a vet that won't.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Kotanushka said:


> I agree and that is why I am trying to figure out the best solution to the problem created for everybody by unscrupulous BYBs.
> 
> Talking about "precious" - here they are. "Top of the World!" (world meaning - their own igloo)


Gorgeous! - milk, white and dark chocolate - how can a girl resist?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> Here it is completely routine to neuter from 3 months. I have not yet come across a vet that won't.


Unfortunately it's not that common in the UK, but I think that is very, very slowly changing.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

We EN at around 13 weeks, always have and always will, but we respect the views of those that don't and send kittens with contracts, it's the individuals choice to do so in the end


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