# 65 days ???



## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Hi all, new to this forum 

I have a gorgeous little girl called Lumi (1 year old) who was booked in to be spayed as well as our boy, O’Malley. However, thanks to Covid, our vets has been on emergency only for 5 months so my appointments were cancelled.

My son caught Lumi and O’Malley doing the deed on 11th May & she’s shown continuous signs of being pregnant (growing stomach, nipples growing and pinking, kittens moving etc)

She’s 65 days pregnant today according to my calendar but isn’t showing any signs of labour at all. She’s abit restless and seems like she can’t get comfortable.

Yesterday I woke up and fed them both. When I saw Lumi, I honestly thought she had given birth. She was slimmer so I checked everywhere but no kittens. 

Last night I saw the kittens kicking her loads. Again this morning, no kittens and she’s super slim when I look down at her but her stomach is hard. But I’m struggling to feel any babies moving.

No signs of discharge or plug, no vocalising etc.

She’s a house cat so has never been outside so she can’t have given birth outside. Vets are still on emergency only so I’m at a loss as to whether this is normal for a cat to look slimmer towards the end of pregnancy?

Thanks all


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Kittens 'drop' right before birth so the queen can look slimmer, sometimes there is almost a hollow either side of her spine just before her pelvis. As cats are induced ovulators, it can take 24 hours for conception to actually take place. This is why I always count the 65 days from the 2nd day of mating. If the 11th May was the first and only day she mated she will be likely to have the kittens tonight or tomorrow night. Either way, you should stay up with her and watch in case she gets into trouble.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Tigermoon said:


> Kittens 'drop' right before birth so the queen can look slimmer, sometimes there is almost a hollow either side of her spine just before her pelvis. As cats are induced ovulators, it can take 24 hours for conception to actually take place. This is why I always count the 65 days from the 2nd day of mating. If the 11th May was the first and only day she mated she will be likely to have the kittens tonight or tomorrow night. Either way, you should stay up with her and watch in case she gets into trouble.


Thank you. I honestly thought I was going crazy, like I'd imagined all her signs etc.

She's currently in her bed/nesting box breathing a little quicker than usual so I'm definitely keeping an eye on her.

Thanks again


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

LumiMalley said:


> Thank you. I honestly thought I was going crazy, like I'd imagined all her signs etc.
> 
> She's currently in her bed/nesting box breathing a little quicker than usual so I'm definitely keeping an eye on her.
> 
> Thanks again


Is she purring? Fast breathing and purring are often the first sign of labour.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Tigermoon said:


> Is she purring? Fast breathing and purring are often the first sign of labour.


She's always purring recently. She's gone from being a totally spoilt cat to the most loving x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I hope O'Malley has since been castrated - my vet is certainly neutering boys & girls. If not, get him booked in ASAP. Remember he will be fertile for some time afterwards, like men are after a vasectomy. Lumi might come back into call very soon after delivering, so keep them apart until she is spayed.

Lots of information about kittening on iCatCare:
https://icatcare.org/advice/?per_page=12&categories=cat-pregnancy-birth


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Did the vets not tell people covid didn't mean let their cats mate? Awful lot of these threads lately  

Hopefully the male has been done now as many posts show vets are performing neuters, As above its vital they are separated for 8-10 weeks while he is still fertile.
She can call from a few days after birthing, though cats don't need to be in heat to fall pregnant.

Ensure the kittens are all neutered prior to adoption, they need to stay with mum for at least 12 weeks before being rehomed. 

65 days is just the average, 63-70 is within normal range.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

The RCVS suspended all pet neutering at the beginning of lockdown in the UK and has only recently lifted the suspension. Some surgeries are now neutering again but some surgeries have still not re started yet.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I can only think that some vets have taken things rather to the extreme. 

Chatting with my vet (when I was booking in one of my own cats to be spayed six weeks ago) he said they had continued to spay/neuter where there were health and/or welfare reasons; the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy being a welfare issue, according to him. My own cat was spayed on the basis that her calls were frequent and long.

It's difficult to comprehend that many vets appear to have been flatly refusing to spay/neuter.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I can only think that some vets have taken things rather to the extreme.
> 
> Chatting with my vet (when I was booking in one of my own cats to be spayed six weeks ago) he said they had continued to spay/neuter where there were health and/or welfare reasons; the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy being a welfare issue, according to him. My own cat was spayed on the basis that her calls were frequent and long.
> 
> It's difficult to comprehend that many vets appear to have been flatly refusing to spay/neuter.


I quite agree. I got one of my kittens neutered back at the end of April before she went to her new home, but I had to go to 3 or 4 practices to find one that would do the spay. Now they are all back open in my area. Yet in other areas vets are still almost completely closed. Utterly bizarre.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Hii all, Lumi is still holding on! 

Yep O’Malley has been booked in to be neutered. Our local vets were all emergencies only for months and months unfortunately. My sister in law is a vet and she’s been keeping me informed on timescales for vets opening for routine bookings.

They are currently separated and will continue to be until he’s a few weeks post surgery  it was an unfortunate accident that they mated. We didn’t even know O’Malley was a boy until he was 7 months old (thanks to his long hair). We purchased him on the promise he was a girl as we didn’t want a male cat. Hence the late booking neutering for them both. I can assure everyone here that any kittens Lumi has will be loved and neutered as soon as old enough. Along with Lumi My sister has already promised a home for one, one will be staying with us and any more she may have will be going to family members


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

These are my gorgeous boy and girl a few weeks ago ❤


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Did the vet not check sexes when vaccinating?

For future reference even if they were both females there's no good reason to delay spaying beyond 2-4 months old as its best to spay before the first heat.
Its vital the kittens are neutered before rehoming to ensure the cycle of breeding is stopped, people get busy, or don't expect their 4 month old to be in heat, allow them outside etc.

I suspect the mating date is incorrect as she's still not given birth?


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> Did the vet not check sexes when vaccinating?
> 
> For future reference even if they were both females there's no good reason to delay spaying beyond 2-4 months old as its best to spay before the first heat.
> Its vital the kittens are neutered before rehoming to ensure the cycle of breeding is stopped, people get busy, or don't expect their 4 month old to be in heat, allow them outside etc.
> ...


I don't think she did check to be honest. We were pretty much straight in and out.

We were in no rush to spay them with them both originally being female (or so we thought!) and them being indoor cats. Neither has ever been out of the house. The plan was to have them done around the 6 month mark. Not for any particular reason, just something we decided.

She would be 67/68 days as they were caught together on May 11th. She's in the vets on Monday to be checked over to make sure all is okay as that's her 69-70 day mark.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

> We purchased him on the promise he was a girl as we didn't want a male cat. Hence the late booking neutering for them both.


Its best for the long term health of female cats to be spayed by 6 months at the latest. If your vet didn't check sexes the first time they saw them that was remiss of them


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Our vets spayed one of our girls about 3 weeks ago, they have been doing routine surgeries for a few weeks. You still can’t go in the practice, they collect the animal from your car and have a chat with you outside and take the animal in for examination.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Its best for the long term health of female cats to be spayed by 6 months at the latest. If your vet didn't check sexes the first time they saw them that was remiss of them


It wasn't our usual vet and not a vet I would go to again. 
They will both be neutered. This was an unfortunate accident but definitely isn't resulting in an unloved litter. But, saying that, it is 100% her ONLY litter. Hate seeing my poor girl so uncomfortable and and having to separate them both.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Our vets spayed one of our girls about 3 weeks ago, they have been doing routine surgeries for a few weeks. You still can't go in the practice, they collect the animal from your car and have a chat with you outside and take the animal in for examination.


Unfortunately our local vets were only performing emergency appointments. After my appointment was cancelled, I rang around and all were the same.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

LumiMalley said:


> Unfortunately our local vets were only performing emergency appointments. After my appointment was cancelled, I rang around and all were the same.


Once he had mated her you might have got a different answer. Conception does happen for 10 or so days in cats


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Once he had mated her you might have got a different answer. Conception does happen for 10 or so days in cats


Unfortunately hindsight is a wonderful thing. I can't do anything about this pregnancy but I do understand the importance of neutering, not only for the health benefits. My mum had rescued 7 cats so I'm a huge cat lover and understand the sheer number of unwanted litters/pregnancies plus the risks of breeding. Her pregnancy isn't something I have taken lightly and if I had known O'Malley was a boy then they would have both been neutered as kittens.
As I said above, this is 100% Lumi's only litter of kittens. Those kittens will only leave her at 12 weeks old once properly vet checked, vaccinated and neutered. I have savings put aside should any problems arise in the delivery of the kittens or any health problems with her or her babies.
I appreciate everyone's concern about them not being neutered so far but it's not something I can take back. Appointments have been made and all will be sorted


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tomorrow is 70 days from the day they were seen mating. Were they kept apart afterwards? 65 days from first mating is how I calculate due date, but 60-70 days is normal.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Tomorrow is 70 days from the day they were seen mating. Were they kept apart afterwards? 65 days from first mating is how I calculate due date, but 60-70 days is normal.


I was told to not include the date they mated or is this incorrect information? Yes they have only had supervised playtime 
She currently has white milky discharge. No smells, no blood etc.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

It's good thing that you take responsibility. And yes, what has been done, can't be taken back, but you have learned from this experience.
It's weird that the place where you adopted them, didn't perform the neutering! Very unprofessional.
How old is Lumi? If she isn't even 6 months old, that's awfully young. 
I hope that she and her babies will be okay.

I just recently watched this video from Kitten Lady and many of her other videos are also helpful.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Milka said:


> It's good thing that you take responsibility. And yes, what has been done, can't be taken back, but you have learned from this experience.
> It's weird that the place where you adopted them, didn't perform the neutering! Very unprofessional.
> How old is Lumi? If she isn't even 6 months old, that's awfully young.
> I hope that she and her babies will be okay.
> ...


The mum cat is 1 yr old, see first post.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

SusieRainbow said:


> The mum cat is 1 yr old, see first post.


Oh! Right! She did mention her age. How did I miss and get that so badly confused, I don't know!
Thank you.
But STILL that's too young. I'm worried.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Milka said:


> Oh! Right! She did mention her age. How did I miss and get that so badly confused, I don't know!
> Thank you.
> But STILL that's too young. I'm worried.


I agree, we have to hope.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Milka said:


> Oh! Right! She did mention her age. How did I miss and get that so badly confused, I don't know!
> Thank you.
> But STILL that's too young. I'm worried.


Most unneutered cats allowed out will have kittens by the time they are one, some pedigrees will, and whilst things sometimes do go horribly, tragically & expensively wrong in general they do not. In a free-living population Darwinism will weed out those unable to kitten by then.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Milka said:


> Oh! Right! She did mention her age. How did I miss and get that so badly confused, I don't know!
> Thank you.
> But STILL that's too young. I'm worried.


She's 18 months old. Sorry, I tend to describe in years rather than months. 
Neither were bought from home environments who seemed to be more interested in the money than the welfare of the kittens. Lumi was 8 weeks when we got her, we thought O'Malley was the same but it turned out he was only around 5 weeks!! He used to stumble when he walked and constantly poop on himself etc. We were concerned he hadn't grown properly as we were told that 'she' was 8 months old. Both are beautiful and strong now. Fantastic eaters, well spoilt etc


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Sorry that’s meant to say they were bought from home environments


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Most unneutered cats allowed out will have kittens by the time they are one, some pedigrees will, and whilst things sometimes do go horribly, tragically & expensively wrong in general they do not. In a free-living population Darwinism will weed out those unable to kitten by then.


My cats have never been outdoors. As I explained, we bought O'Malley on the promise he was a girl. He was just a tiny fluffball so we didn't question this. An oversight on my part as I didn't check beforehand. He isn't loved any less but definitely but a spanner in the works.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

LumiMalley said:


> She's 18 months old. Sorry, I tend to describe in years rather than months.
> Neither were bought from home environments who seemed to be more interested in the money than the welfare of the kittens. Lumi was 8 weeks when we got her, we thought O'Malley was the same but it turned out he was only around 5 weeks!! He used to stumble when he walked and constantly poop on himself etc. We were concerned he hadn't grown properly as we were told that 'she' was 8 months old. Both are beautiful and strong now. Fantastic eaters, well spoilt etc


Sorry, we were told 'she' was 8 weeks old. Turned out to be around 5 weeks and a boy!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

LumiMalley said:


> The plan was to have them done around the 6 month mark.





LumiMalley said:


> She's 18 months old


How long have you all been in lockdown over there


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> How long have you all been in lockdown over there


Haha sorry it's hard to get all the information in a post to explain completely. We've been in lockdown 5 months (Luckily easing now). We booked them both in when we found out O'Malley was a boy (age 7 months old) so O'Malley is 1 year old, Lumi is 18 months old haha. 
We had the plans to book them both in when O'Malley was 6 months old, unfortunately a few issues arose at home so this was delayed but when O'Malley was found to be a girl I rang my vets for their soonest appointment, they were booked up until the end of March (when O'Malley was 8 months old) then lockdown happened.

Sorry, I hope that makes some sort of sense ‍♀


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Most unneutered cats allowed out will have kittens by the time they are one, some pedigrees will, and whilst things sometimes do go horribly, tragically & expensively wrong in general they do not. In a free-living population Darwinism will weed out those unable to kitten by then.


But WHY do pedigrees do that also? If they know that it's potentialy dangerous to the health of the mother and the kittens? I don't understand... why risk it?


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Sorry, when he was found to be a boy


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

LumiMalley said:


> She's 18 months old. Sorry, I tend to describe in years rather than months.
> Neither were bought from home environments who seemed to be more interested in the money than the welfare of the kittens. Lumi was 8 weeks when we got her, we thought O'Malley was the same but it turned out he was only around 5 weeks!! He used to stumble when he walked and constantly poop on himself etc. We were concerned he hadn't grown properly as we were told that 'she' was 8 months old. Both are beautiful and strong now. Fantastic eaters, well spoilt etc


Oh. I'm relieved to know that she is 18 months. Good to hear that they have grown strong. 
But damn. They didn't care about the welfare of the kittens. Didn't vaccinate, microchip or spay/neuter. And poor O'Malley's weaning wasn't compleated properly, on top of everything. What is wrong with people?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Milka said:


> But WHY do pedigrees do that also? If they know that it's potentialy dangerous to the health of the mother and the kittens? I don't understand... why risk it?


All pregnancies are potentially dangerous, but so is calling & calling without being mated. Also many breeds are usually well grown by a year. Sadie was 3.5kg, she's an oriental


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

Milka said:


> Oh. I'm relieved to know that she is 18 months. Good to hear that they have grown strong.
> But damn. They didn't care about the welfare of the kittens. Didn't vaccinate, microchip or spay/neuter. And poor O'Malley's weaning wasn't compleated properly, on top of everything. What is wrong with people?


Luckily he's a strong, chunky boy with giant paws and gorgeous orange and white long fur. They're both so loving. Quite interested to see what the kitten/s will look like. O'Malley is long haired ginger and white with yellow eyes, Lumi is a mix of short and semi long white hair with gorgeous blue eyes.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lockdown started in late march, it's now late July, I make that 4 months not 5. It also means lumi was over a year at the start of lockdown, you say you'd had her from 8 weeks, really can't understand how she didn't get spayed months before lockdown.


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## LumiMalley (Jul 15, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Lockdown started in late march, it's now late July, I make that 4 months not 5. It also means lumi was over a year at the start of lockdown, you say you'd had her from 8 weeks, really can't understand how she didn't get spayed months before lockdown.


She was our only cat at the time & a house cat so, to be completely honest, we just didn't get around to it. It may sound silly or irresponsible but I'd rather be honest than make a false excuse. We have always, always had plans to spay her.
Again, it's not really something I can just take back. She will be spayed as soon as she's stopped feeding the kitten/s, at the same time as the kittens she has. O'Malley is booked in for Thursday to be neutered. My cats are well looked after, well fed and spoilt rotten. I have no other defence to the spay/neuter subject. I can't look back and regret my choices or irresponsibility at the time, I can only make sure to fix things so she doesn't have any future litters.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

LumiMalley said:


> Luckily he's a strong, chunky boy with giant paws and gorgeous orange and white long fur. They're both so loving. Quite interested to see what the kitten/s will look like. O'Malley is long haired ginger and white with yellow eyes, Lumi is a mix of short and semi long white hair with gorgeous blue eyes.


They are both beautiful.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Milka said:


> But WHY do pedigrees do that also? If they know that it's potentialy dangerous to the health of the mother and the kittens? I don't understand... why risk it?


Sensible breeders select their girls from lines with a history of successful kittening and make sure they have excellent nutrition. They will decide to mate their girls when they are sufficiently mature which obviously can vary depending on the breed and the individual girl. As has already been stated nothing is completely certain but it is random bred cats who may have kittens while still kittens themselves and who have probably not had good quality food during pregnancy who will be more at risk of complications.

With luck, Lumi should be fine since she is adult and well nourished.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Milka said:


> What is wrong with people?


People buy them so the bybs keep breeding, and then as in this case breed from them as well, the cycle never ends.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> People buy them so the bybs keep breeding, and then as in this case breed from them as well, the cycle never ends.


Oh, you mean that it's because of ignorance?
Hmm... In my country there is also a huge cat crisis. So many homeless cats and irresponsible cat guardians. It's frustrating.
There is advocacy, but it doesn't reach those who need information. And some people just ignore info. That's the worst.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

QOTN said:


> Sensible breeders select their girls from lines with a history of successful kittening and make sure they have excellent nutrition. They will decide to mate their girls when they are sufficiently mature which obviously can vary depending on the breed and the individual girl. As has already been stated nothing is completely certain but it is random bred cats who may have kittens while still kittens themselves and who have probably not had good quality food during pregnancy who will be more at risk of complications.
> 
> With luck, Lumi should be fine since she is adult and well nourished.


Thank you for clarifying. I still have a lot to learn.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Milka said:


> Oh, you mean that it's because of ignorance?
> Hmm... In my country there is also a huge cat crisis. So many homeless cats and irresponsible cat guardians. It's frustrating.
> There is advocacy, but it doesn't reach those who need information. And some people just ignore info. That's the worst.


Not always no. We have threads here all the time from people who know they should walk away from a byb situation, and we confirm that fact, but they go ahead and buy anyway, continuing the horrible cycle.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2020)

lorilu said:


> Not always no. We have threads here all the time from people who know they should walk away from a byb situation, and we confirm that fact, but they go ahead and buy anyway, continuing the horrible cycle.


Oh no.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Tomorrow is 70 days from the day they were seen mating. Were they kept apart afterwards? 65 days from first mating is how I calculate due date, but 60-70 days is normal.


'tomorrow' was Monday 20th. Any kittens yet?


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