# I'm not getting anywhere.



## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

I've had the girls for 12 weeks and I'm not getting anywhere.
I've seen people post on this forum since I joined with similar tales of shy, nervous cats, and then a few weeks later I read about how their cats have settled in and everything's fine.
What am I not doing?

Obviously, the situation has improved since Day One, this is where we stand;

They'll eat from my hand, but if I go to touch them then they back away.
I can walk past at fairly close proximity [mostly] but only if I'm very slow and delicate in my movements.
If I approach them then they move away, they don't always run anymore but they will remove themselves swiftly from my reach.
They play together, we play with sticks and balls n that.
I've never heard a purr or a miaow. There was crying upon returning from the vet but that's all.
We seem to have reached a stalemate where they've been like this for ages and now nothing is changing.

Some days I'm finding that I just can't be bothered to make an effort with them, constant rejection is tough on the ego!
I remember the Rescue Lady asking me what kind of cats I wanted and I said friendly ones, she must have thought I said fiery.

Any thoughts on what I do now? What I try next? Do you want them?


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## ella (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, if they will eat from your hand, that's a good basis to get them started from.

If you hold them on your lap, will they still eat from your hand? Could you use the food as a lure to keep them close to you? If you can keep them slightly longer each time, it will make them more used to the contact.

I put dreamies on the floor/bed and she eats from that (she couldnt do my hand and sniffs along the fingers to find the food at the fingertip) but it does mean that her head is down and she cant see my hand moving to stroke her back. Once she knows that she is being stroked AND getting a dreamie, she is usually fine.

Are they ok when you speak gently to them? When you pick them up do they struggle away or could you hold them close until they calm down?

I'm 10 months on and Bibi will only stay on my bed for any length of time if a Dreamie is involved....or if she _thinks_ a Dreamie might be involved... She doesnt sleep on my bed (but has a bed near mine and checks on me through the night) or sit on the sofa/my lap, but she will greet me when I come in, and she is used to certain words ('biscuits', 'milky' (her favourite - cat milk), 'garden') and reacts accordingly. There was a lot of repetition involved until she got it.

Each cat is so different, and I think you've done well to get them eating from your hand!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Heatherjane -- I do sympathise, as it must be very disheartening to feel you have not made more progress socialising your girls. To be constantly mistrusted or rejected when you have been putting so much effort into trying to bring them out of their shells must be hard to take.

Though from what you say it sounds like you have made a lot of progress in the last 12 weeks...... just not as much as you would like, or have expected. I think you have been hugely patient and committed to the task anyway.

I believe one reason why they have not bonded more with you is because 
there are two of them, so they don't need to make as much effort to bond with you as one cat on its own would. They are well bonded with each other, trust each other, and rely on each other for moral support. So in a sense they have decided they don't need you much for that side of things, and that is why they remain aloof from you. 

The accounts you have read on the PF of people who successfully socialised or integrated new very timid nervous cats, have, as far as I recall, always been single cats, not pairs. 

I understand the Shelter didn't want to separate your two for what seemed like good reasons, but the fact is their decision has has resulted in you having a herculean task trying to "wedge" yourself in between the two cats when they are so close to each other.

I think there is a danger now, as you have observed, of a stalemate. The cats are getting what they need from you (food, shelter, a safe place to live), so they have found a comfortable way to co-exist with you. 

I think it would be a shame to give up on these kitties, when you have put in so much work already. It seems to me you have 2 alternatives. One is to get another cat, preferably a friendly young cat, who might be able to help you socialise your 2. Cats are tremendous copy cats, and your 2 may well in time learn from the new cat how to interact with you. 

However, introducing a new cat at this stage, when your 2 are still timid, could be the worst thing, as it might push your 2 back into being as shy and fearful as they were when you first adopted them. The new cat may quickly learn to rule the roost, and the other 2 may therefore never feel confident. Perhaps this may be less likely to happen if you got a young kitten tho.

The other thing to try which will need perseverance and patience (I know you have already given bucketloads, and I am sorry to glibly ask 
you to give even more ). Basically you would need to have periods of time with each of your cats separately, i.e. shut them in separate rooms for an hour or so a day when you are at home, and spend time with each in turn, playing with wand type toys, feeding, giving treats, grooming etc, whatever interaction the cat will allow. 

If there is another person in your household even better, as he/she could be co-opted to play with/distract one cat in one room whilst you play with the other cat in another room.

What you may find, once your cats are temporarily separated is one of the cats is prepared to be more bold and responsive with you than the other one. Because when they are together, they are "feeding" off each other so to speak, the copycat syndrome again, so if one gets *spooked* the other follows suit. 

So it may be that after a while of separate interaction, you manage to form more of a bond with one of the cats. The more timid cat would observe her sister interacting more with you, and in time hopefully would begin to follow suit. 

I do feel this would work, at least there would be some gradual improvement of the current situation anyway. 

Apropos of this, may I also suggest when one of them needs to go to the vet, you don't try and put her in the pet carrier in front of the other cat. Just remove the cat for the vet trip calmly from the room, taking her into the room where you have discreetly hidden the open pet carrier, shutting the door behind you, before putting the cat in the pet carrier.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

With the "history" of your 2 girls I think you have achieved quite a lot in 12 weeks.
To have spent so long in a rescue centre at such a young age,when they should have been learning and developing their social skills is so sad.Some cats never accept being picked up and fussed and stroking only tolerated for a short time.
I know you were kidding when you said constant rejection,at least I hope you did,they are not rejecting you they just have never learned to trust or interact in a close way with humans.
It will take time and a hell of a lot of patience,be gentle,consistant and never push yourself on them let them take the lead.I had a real problem with my Ragdoll for nearly a year he had behaviour problems and loved to tear lumps out of me,but he is now a big cuddle monster but can still nip


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

Ella, I can't pick them up. I can't even get close enough to try.
The last time I attempted it I got bitten twice, and the next day a lady on the bus looked at the state of me and asked if I had cats.
Laps are just not an option.

They are, I think, happy to be living with me, but I also feel they'd be just as happy living in a shed it it provided meals, a laser mouse and a clean litter tray.
It seems like we have made all the progress that we will make. 
They don't really seem to need my company because they have each other.

Buffie, I don't know how to help socialise them, I'm stuck now. I don't know what to try.
I haven't had cats since I was a kid and we always had friendly, purry cats. My knowledge in this area is limited and I've hit a brick wall.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

theheatherjane said:


> Ella, I can't pick them up. I can't even get close enough to try.
> The last time I attempted it I got bitten twice, and the next day a lady on the bus looked at the state of me and asked if I had cats.
> Laps are just not an option.
> 
> ...


The only other thing I can suggest if you feel nothing else is working is to get the help of a pet behaviourist.I did with Meeko and it is the best £70 I have spent.She sat for an hour just watching his behaviour ect and then drew up a plan specifically for his type of problems.If you do think this may help ask your vet for a referral or to advise the best place to find a reputable one from.There are lots of folks who claim to be behaviourists but many are not registered.Good luck it will be worth the struggle in the end


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

No wonder you are frustrated. 12 weeks seems like a long time to have them and still barely get near them or be able to pick them up.

Maybe not what you want to hear, and no doubt others may also disagree, but I am wondering if perhaps they would be better homed on a farm or maybe stables where they will have shelter and be fed but not have to endure human company if they don't want it.

Just a suggestion. You are sounding quite demoralised and obviously not getting very much pleasure from them.


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## ella (Jan 1, 2009)

Agree with buffie about the behaviourist. One of the vet nurses at my vets is a behaviourist - maybe your vet has one?

Have you tried Zylkene? I cant remember. This was what made the biggest change in Bibi. It has the same stuff in it as in mothers' milk to soothe them, make them feel secure. This food has it in (this is how Bibi had it as tablets are a no-go for her unless absolutely necessary) Royal Canin Calm Feline Dry - From £19.46

even if you try it before a behaviourist (and to support the behaviourist's work) it might help. It is amazing stuff, takes a few weeks to kick in....


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

We've tried Zylkene, if you remember rightly it was what was going to get us to the vet's. I'm sure you remember how that ended..
I've been ignoring the food because I'm not a great advocate of dry food, but I'll look into it. 
At the moment I'll look into anything.

Animal behaviorists, I'll investigate.
The only problem with that is that as soon as the behaviorist appears through the door then the cats will hide behind the sofa until they've left.
Will they charge me for that...?

Mo, it really saddens me to say that, no, I haven't fallen in love with the cats. But I am fond of their little faces and I'm not sure I can give up on them quite yet. 
Though maybe next week I'll be sending the little b*****s off to catch their own food..


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

It's 10 weeks, I've been lying. I've had them for 10 weeks.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I think considering a behavioural therapist may be a good idea but Chilliminx's advice seems very logical too - particuarly splitting them up and working on them one at a time, It sounds like 12 weeks of hard work for nothing in return (and I think its perfectly reasonable to expect to have at least made some headway in this time) have left you feeling really down about the whole situation.

Maybe you need to work out how long it would take to exhaust all options of making this work on both sides, and then set a realistic review date to take stock and see if it is worthwhile to continue trying, or find an alternative arrangement for the cats that would suit them better and make you less unhappy.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

I understand how you feel and would agree with a lot of what chillminx has said.
As I have said before if you have 2 feral kittens together they will always be more attatched to each other than you and they rarely(never say never!) tame up as well as a single cat.
I think you may have to lower your expectations as to what you will get from these two cats.
I am sure they will get better in time but it could take many months and they are unlikely to become like "normal" cats.
I have had an ex feral cat for 15 years and she is still a bundle of nerves a lot of the time.
My other advice is to never mollycoddle them - they need to get used to noises being handled etc. If you want them to sit on your lap you may have to hold them there to start with, don't let them hide away, keep them with you as much as you can.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

theheatherjane said:


> We've tried Zylkene, if you remember rightly it was what was going to get us to the vet's. I'm sure you remember how that ended..
> I've been ignoring the food because I'm not a great advocate of dry food, but I'll look into it.
> At the moment I'll look into anything.
> 
> ...


Just because they are not visible in the room doesnt mean that the behaviourist cant help.They have ways of assessing animals from the way they behave and interact (or dont)and I'm fairly certain there will be certain "tests" they can apply to give them the answers they need.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Well I am going to go out on a limb here and agree with Mo and Aurelie that maybe, just _maybe_, these cats are not for you..at least as a pair. 
I think you need to have a chat with the rescue they came from, explain that they did not really assess the cats correctly and ask for suggestions.
Maybe the cats need to be split up and placed individually with experienced foster carers to see if they make more progress that way or maybe they should go as a pair to a stable/outdoors home.
The harsh reality is that you could well be looking at 15 years or so of caring for 2 cats who will never be sociable with you....and I for one think that is a big ask, I am not sure that is what you signed up for.
This suggestion may well not be a popular one with some people reading this, but do not be made to feel guilty if this is the decision you come to. You have done a lovely thing in offering to re-home a pair of cats...always more difficult for a rescue to re-home...but you were clear in stating that you wanted friendly and sociable animals.


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## McSquirtle (Jan 13, 2012)

Firstly, kudos for getting this far with them. It must be really disheartening! My Lola was a semi feral along with two siblings. She was the worst one and seemed to think she was the protector, you couldn't put your hand in without her lunging. Luckily she was only 6weeks at the time so any damage she did wasn't too bad. They were split up immediately and Lola is the most affectionate out of my bunch now (the other two are not from a feral background). As I'm aware the other two went on to thrive too, not having Lola the boss around, allowed their personalities to come out.
I think splitting them up might be the way to go - which is quite sad as they have depended on each other. They may never come around to humans but I think they stand a better chance on a one-to-one basis.


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

Ok, this is what's going to happen;
I've spoken to the Rescue Centre and they have suggested that we start again. So they are going to come round and put them back into a cage in my flat, and then that's how they're going to stay for at least a week so, hopefully, they can get used to me handling them.
They've acknowledged that this is what should have happened from the beginning, but weren't aware how far the cats were going to regress once homed.

It's this, or we just truck on as we are, or they re-home them as semi feral cats, but I can't think about that right now.
It makes me too sad.

So the cats are going to jail. 
Fingers crossed.


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

Also, thanks everyone.
It's nice to have some support x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Best of luck Heatherjane -- I hope it works! Very pleased you are getting some support from the staff at the Rescue Centre.

Will be looking forward to reading your updates -- (daily if you have the time, 
would be lovely


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

I am glad you are getting some support from the rescue but I do think it would be worth considering seperating the cats and possibly just keeping one.
Keeping them confined would help in the short term and would certainly be of benefit with a single cat but you may find once they are let out of the cage they will still have each other and won't really need you (except for food of course).
I know you would feel bad if one or both of the cats had to be rehomed but if they are not attatched to you at all then try to be logical about it and accept that it would probably make little difference to them if they were with you or at the rescue centre. 
I know some people think they are being kind by not seperating feral cats but in the long term it is usually kinder to do just that unless you are prepared to accept them as they are.
I do hope you make progress with them though.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I agree with Scratchy. Perhaps it is a misconception to think that semi-feral cats are not happy because they do not have much human contact. For a cat who craves human love then that life may be a lonely one, but for cats who just want to be with their own kind it may be a great way to live.


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## Poppycat (Sep 9, 2011)

I think the cage idea is an excellent one. Last year I fostered a family of 3 cats: grandma, ma and baby. All three were closely bonded. Grandma (who was only 2) and baby were real cuddle monsters but ma (1 yr old) was aloof and in the six weeks I had her I never managed to give her stroke, never heard her purr and generally she would keep her distance only approaching for food. She kept a wide berth and I had no interaction with her whatsoever. 

She then got herself knocked by a car, badly damaging her leg and had to become an in-patient for several weeks at the vets. When I got progress reports on her I though they were referring to the wrong cat as they kept saying what a purry friendly kitty she was ????!!! 

They kept saying this and I decided they were just lying to make me feel better, even though I had told them that I wasn't at all bonded to her as she had been so aloof & so I had no emotional attachment. I even told them to see if they could find her a home, preferably one where she could be left alone dong her own thing. A few weeks later she was discharged & I brought her back home and my god they were right: she was a totally changed cat : purred like a tractor when you just looked at her and so playful and interactive. Over the next few weeks and months she progressed to wanting belly rubs, lying on me and becoming my shadow. She's become so loving I couldn't bear to part with her now and she has been formally adopted.

I definitely think it was the enforced interaction she had to have with humans and the segregation from the other cats that forced her behaviour change and for the better for her as well as me. She just luuuurvves her pampering now and is soo loving and lovely. I still have another cat ,not related to her ( her mum & baby got re-homed) and she is fond of the other cat but much more so of me !

Will you be putting them in separate cages in separate rooms ?


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

Poppycat, no. That wasn't even a suggestion. 
But now you've got me thinking that it should have been...


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

I need to add; I think that they can be great cats.
The reason I'm making all this effort is because I think that they want to cross the line, but they don't know how. 
Betty, the shyer cat, likes to know what I'm doing and I tend to find her in the same room as me. 
Dora showed me her belly this morning [first time], and when I get up in the morning and she's all sleepy then she forgets herself and will actually make a few friendly cat signals, then she remembers that she's a Little Madam and she'll walk off.
They'll happily come over for a sniff, eat from my hands, and sit nearby, and sometimes when I go to touch them and they throw themselves away it's done with no real intent behind it, it's just what they're used to doing when a hand approaches and I'm not sure they know how to stop.

So, sending them away would be hard because we do interact. 
Just very, very slowly........


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

theheatherjane said:


> Poppycat, no. That wasn't even a suggestion.
> But now you've got me thinking that it should have been...


Yes, I do think it should have been....I feel if they are kept together they will just egg each other on, I do think separation is the way to go either in separate rooms at your house or one cat going to another home.


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## Poppycat (Sep 9, 2011)

I don't have any real experience of turning around cats, it was sort of done for me purely by accident. 

Hopefully others with more experience will be able to advise. 

They might get distressed just being confined in cages and separating them might make their distress worse still. It seems that what they need is to be separated but not necessarily confined in order to force them to interact only with you. Is it an option for a friend or family member to have one of them for a short while ? 

It does sound from your update that they will get there eventually and kudos to you for being so understanding and patient with them.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

They are unlikely to enjoy being confined in a cage especially now they are older, but it needs to be done.
Seperating them should not really cause much distress,they should very quickly adapt to being on their own.
Forcing them to interact with you is the very thing you need to do with most feral cats.
If you leave it to them to come to you many never will - you have to force them to overcome their fear.
They will only get to realise they need not fear something by experiencing it, that was what I meant by not mollycoddling them.
Any short term distress will be out weighed by the longterm benefits.

Socialising feral kittens is best done as young as possible, the older the kittens the more difficult(and sometimes the less successful) it is.
I have had kittens that have literally thrown themselves around the cage, bit and scratched me , peed on me but have become friendly responsive kittens.
Please don't make the mistake of not wanting to upset them - it does not really help.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

scatchy said:


> They are unlikely to enjoy being confined in a cage especially now they are older, but it needs to be done.
> Seperating them should not really cause much distress,they should very quickly adapt to being on their own.
> *Forcing them to interact with you is the very thing you need to do with most feral cats.*If you leave it to them to come to you many never will - you have to force them to overcome their fear.
> They will only get to realise they need not fear something by experiencing it, that was what I meant by not mollycoddling them.
> ...


Have I missed something in the previous posts.I was not aware that these two cats were feral.I read that they had been at the rescue since they were 3 months old.
If they are genuinely feral then the rescue should have been working with them for the last 8 months surely


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

Buffie, they were handed in when they were 3 mths old, they'd been living in a shed in someone's garden, then they were at the Rescue for 8mths.
I like to think of them more as 'stroppy teenagers'.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

buffie said:


> Have I missed something in the previous posts.I was not aware that these two cats were feral.I read that they had been at the rescue since they were 3 months old.
> If they are genuinely feral then the rescue should have been working with them for the last 8 months surely


I am sure the rescue did what they could but it is not the same as being in a domestic situation.
I use the term feral because I understand the kittens were born outdoors and lived for the first 12 weeks outdoors so had no socialisation when they most needed it. I am sure they were very timid from when they arrived at the rescue and that is why they stayed there for so long.


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## Poppycat (Sep 9, 2011)

How about putting one of them in a cattery for a few days or a week or so, thus forcing the other to have to rely on you for company & interaction. 

If that one then succumbs, the other should follow its example when it returns.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

scatchy said:


> I am sure the rescue did what they could but it is not the same as being in a domestic situation.
> I use the term feral because I understand the kittens were born outdoors and lived for the first 12 weeks outdoors so had no socialisation when they most needed it. I am sure they were very timid from when they arrived at the rescue and that is why they stayed there for so long.


The reason I asked "if they were feral" was because I had not seen it mentioned anywhere in the posts on the thread.I stand by my comments though,as it seems they have been born outside,the rescue should have been the ones to work with them to help them to socialise not rehome them to someone,who admits she does not have a lot of cat experience.


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## ella (Jan 1, 2009)

Hiya

I think its a great idea to restart the introductions, using a crate. I also hope the rescue are supportive during what I am guessing is going to be a very testing time for you (and the cats). Have they said how long you might have to crate them (as a rough idea)?

I'm looking forward to hearing it all get better

e


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## theheatherjane (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks Ella.
I'm remaining quietly hopeful because I really, really want it work.
At least a week in the cage, but I'm guessing more. 
I'm going to be lead by the experts from now on, and follow their advice as I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.
On the plus side, I have some time off work now so I'm going to be able to spend a lot of time manhandling them and singing them tuneless ditty's [they love it].
It's going to be ridiculously hard seeing them in a cage in a corner of my kitchen, I suspect I'm going to be sleeping on the floor..

Poppycat, I'm obviously no expert, but I feel the problem with your suggestion of separating them is that they've been together in close proximity for a year now, I think separating would upset them so much that it would it would end up creating different issues.


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## ella (Jan 1, 2009)

theheatherjane said:


> Thanks Ella.
> I'm remaining quietly hopeful because I really, really want it work.
> At least a week in the cage, but I'm guessing more.
> I'm going to be lead by the experts from now on, and follow their advice as I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.
> ...


I've got everything crossed and am willing it all to work out


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm glad to hear you are getting some support and advice on how to help build a relationship with the cats. I will cross my fingers that your stroppy teenagers cut you some slack.


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## Lucyh (Dec 30, 2010)

I hope it works out too.. I commented on one of your earlier posts as my two boys sounded similar to yours- they were found on a building site at about 3 months old and in the rescue centre for about 4 months.

I am very lucky that now they have accepted me as part of their family and are both very affectionate towards me (not to anyone else- they will run and hide immediately in a panic) but it did take up to 6 months for Max to like me. He was very protective of Oskar- although Oskar is actually the more timid one, he decided that I was an ok mum after about 2 months but Max just glared at us from under the table and hissed whenever I went near him. I would hate to think of them being split up to be honest, they are so close to each other and I do think it helped them being together.

I have been in touch with the 2 people who took their other 4 siblings. The two girls are still very timid and I am not sure that they sit on the owner's lap, but they are generally fine. The other boy and girl, who went first, have sadly just been returned to the rescue centre after 18 months, as they just hadn't settled at all, and I just can't work out why they have been so different to all the others. The only things I can think that are different are that there were more people in their house, that they had more hiding places as it was a bigger house, and that they were let outside all the time at a younger age. Mine were just in the living room at first, so they had to put up with me watching TV and working on my laptop, maybe that helped them get used to me. Other than that, not sure at all.

But overall, I think it was very sad for those cats that it was after 18 months that they went back, as they must have felt settled in some ways at least. if yours aren't suited to your place it might be best to speak to the rescue centre earlier than that but I would give them at least 6 months to see if they come round first as they can really change. I once said "I think Max will never sit on my lap, I should just accept he's not that kind of cat" which makes me laugh now when he's sprawled out snoring on my legs with his brother


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