# Oriental in siamese litter ????? HELP



## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Shock horror.
My seal point siamese queen has just had 4 lovely kittens fathered by my seal point boy. This is her second litter. However, one of the babies is black all over whilst other 3 appear so far to be siamese. Just checked over my paperwork and sire had orientals in pedigree 3 generations ago. Is it possible that this little kitten might be a throw back or should I start blaming the local tom? Any advise much appreciated,
Thanks


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Is it even possible that its the local tom? I would hope not...

Surely you know who your girl has mated with?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

its not possible im told, so could she have mated with others? 

WHY have you said about blaming the 'local tom'?? does that m,ean that they arent registered? ID get a DNA test done thenm, you cant sell them as pedigrees.


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Of course I know- I was there when it happened. However, I am completely confused by this. She's a strinctly indoor cat.................. but miracles do happen


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

cat_gaga said:


> Of course I know- I was there when it happened. However, I am completely confused by this. She's a strinctly indoor cat.................. but miracles do happen


Well its either possible for a tom to get in your house, or it isn't.

I know literally nothing about cat genetics. I imagine a Siamese breeder would be able to help you.


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

My cats are all registered pedigrees. I have never had a tom cat in my house or my cattery. I mentioned the 'local tom' as tounge in cheek ( ha ha??) but really wish I hadn't now. My boy has orientals in his pedigree -blues and a black. But I have never had an oriental in the litter yet. Obviously I know that mixed siamese/oriental litters are possible and common place but I'm unsure of whether this can occur so far down the line.


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## Tishtash451 (May 2, 2011)

cat_gaga said:


> Shock horror.
> My seal point siamese queen has just had 4 lovely kittens fathered by my seal point boy. This is her second litter. However, one of the babies is black all over whilst other 3 appear so far to be siamese. Just checked over my paperwork and sire had orientals in pedigree 3 generations ago. Is it possible that this little kitten might be a throw back or should I start blaming the local tom? Any advise much appreciated,
> Thanks


We'd love to see some pics!! I bet they are adorable!! Will you keep any???


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

no its not possible to get a solid from a blue eye colorpoint litter. 
please correct if wrong.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> no its not possible to get a solid from a blue colorpoint litter.
> please correct if wrong.


Dunno if it makes ANY difference at all but it says seal colourpoint? I imagine it doesnt...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

cat_gaga said:


> She's a strinctly indoor cat.................. but miracles do happen


No disrepect to anyone, but I don't believe in immaculate conception when it comes to cats ... so either you are 100% sure who fathered litter or you are not 

Maybe your cat's pedigrees are not as reliable as you presume ... if such a "throwback" is not "possible"


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I have always understood that it wasn't possible to have an Oriental from a Siamese mating but I could be wrong and your little one is a genetic throwback. I have a girl of Siamese and Oriental pedigree but I've not had a plain Oriental kitten from her. The stud I use has a pure Siamese pedigree which might make a difference.
Do you know a breeder of Siamese and Orientals that you could ask about the possibility?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Dunno if it makes ANY difference at all but it says seal colourpoint? I imagine it doesnt...


sorry meant to read eye - just read done it lol!



lymorelynn said:


> I have always understood that it wasn't possible to have an Oriental from a Siamese mating but I could be wrong and your little one is a genetic throwback. I have a girl of Siamese and Oriental pedigree but I've not had a plain Oriental kitten from her. The stud I use has a pure Siamese pedigree which might make a difference.
> Do you know a breeder of Siamese and Orientals that you could ask about the possibility?


def not possible, do you remember the litter we looked at, it was like local toms litter  found out after!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> sorry meant to read eye - just read done it lol!
> 
> def not possible, do you remember the litter we looked at, it was like local toms litter  found out after!


I do indeed remember that one TB


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## Guest (May 21, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> No disrepect to anyone, but I don't believe in immaculate conception when it comes to cats ... so either you are 100% sure who fathered litter or you are not
> 
> Maybe your cat's pedigrees are not as reliable as you presume ... if such a "throwback" is not "possible"


Well said


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## draculita (Jun 15, 2008)

I breed siamese and orientals but must admit have never had this scenario. I will ask a more experienced breeder and see what she says.


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## draculita (Jun 15, 2008)

My friend gets siamese from her two black orientals although the sires sire is a siamese.


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Well I was there for the mating. I know that my stud's pedigree is correct because I had to double check with gccf over my last litter with Forein white queen. Kittens were placed on supplementary register because he had orientals in his line. I think I'd better double check hers too- although the copy from the breeder does only list breed 24 and 24b (seal and chocolate colour point). Thanks to all that have tried to be helpful- not so much to thoose of you that have been snooty. Obviously I don't believe in immaculate conception- which is why I asked the question in the first place.


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## Riobelle (Jun 3, 2010)

Hello, it's possible to have orientals that carry siamese but I thought oriental was the dominant colour so not sure it can happen the other way round? Seeing as there is oriental in the pedigree it certainly seems more plausable that this is a genetic throwback then if it was a pure siamese pedigree. Good luck in finding some answers from experienced breeders. As a siamese breeder myself I'm very interested in whatever you find out so please come back and let us know. I've just had a litter with five white siamese babies and one lilac orientlal and it looks very odd, lol. However my siamese girl went to an oriental stud carrying siamese so I was expecting siamese and orientals, not as unexpected as yours. Do you have any pictures? xxx


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Thanks Riobelle,
If I find any more out I'll let you know. I'll probably ring the gccf. I'll be takin photos once my hubby gets back from workin offshore. He's nabbed my camera. Apparently, taking more photos of wind turbines is more important than my kitties.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

It doesn't matter what's in the parents pedigrees. If the mother is colorpoint and the presumed father is colorpoint it's *genetically impossible* for them to produce non-pointed offspring.

Either you have a mutation or your non-pointed has another father than the pointed stud. The last of the options is the more likely. I'd imagine you'll have to do a DNA-test before you can register the non-pointed kitten. If the GCCF is in a good mood you only have to DNA-test the little odd one, if they're very picky they'll have you DNA-test all kittens.

You don't have any other possible fathers in the surroundings? A young male kitten that you thought would be too young for parenthood? Other studs on the cattery? Neighbour cats that could sneak in? A possbility for the queen to sneak out?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

draculita said:


> My friend gets siamese from her two black orientals although the sires sire is a siamese.


yes you can 'carry' the colourpoint blue eye gene, but 2 colourpoints cant produce a solid 

doesnt matter how far back the colourpoint is, you can have two moggies mate and produce it! could be 10gens back!



Cerridwen said:


> It doesn't matter what's in the parents pedigrees. If the mother is colorpoint and the presumed father is colorpoint it's *genetically impossible* for them to produce non-pointed offspring.
> 
> Either you have a mutation or your non-pointed has another father than the pointed stud. The last of the options is the more likely. I'd imagine you'll have to do a DNA-test before you can register the non-pointed kitten. If the GCCF is in a good mood you only have to DNA-test the little odd one, if they're very picky they'll have you DNA-test all kittens.
> 
> You don't have any other possible fathers in the surroundings? A young male kitten that you thought would be too young for parenthood? Other studs on the cattery? Neighbour cats that could sneak in? A possbility for the queen to sneak out?


thats what I thought! thanks for confirming!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

With dogs, a bitch can produce a litter with multiple fathers. So yes, DNA tests will probably be necessary.


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

I do have a young foreign male that is now 9 months. He is the son of my stud and fw queen. The only other option I can imagine is that one of the children has let Magic out in to the garden whilst I've been at work and have decided not to admit to it.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I knew it was possible to get colour points from an Oriental mating but thank you to others for confirming what I had always been told - that it isn't possible the other way around.
Cat_gaga best of luck in sorting out who the daddy is - I guess it will mean a DNA test or not registering the kittens


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Perhaps I'll take them on the Jeremy Kyle or Maury show. . . . . . . Who the daddy???????


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

If you can't be sure you should be re health testing the mother as she could have caught anything.


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## draculita (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Cat gaga
Im afraid I have the same info, that it is genetically impossible. Enjoy your new kittens.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

cat_gaga said:


> I do have a young foreign male that is now 9 months. He is the son of my stud and fw queen. The only other option I can imagine is that one of the children has let Magic out in to the garden whilst I've been at work and have decided not to admit to it.


you can easily get a test, you have to test the entire litter, as of course a ori carrying colourpoint with your queen, the entire litter or half could be your young boys litter!!

type it into google, its about $200 for a litter, thats about £120, not bad really! think you have to send it off from what this site says! swabs from mum/potentual dads & kittens


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## louise cat crazy lady (Feb 1, 2011)

i am no breeder but i have a blue point siamese and a blue oriental. both were from oriental parents. i have had a black 1/2 siamese before and he was the best cat EVER! his mum was a seal point siamese, had gone off to the stud and then out popped 6 black kittens haha bad mum!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

louise cat crazy lady said:


> i am no breeder but i have a blue point siamese and a blue oriental. both were from oriental parents. i have had a black 1/2 siamese before and he was the best cat EVER! his mum was a seal point siamese, had gone off to the stud and then out popped 6 black kittens haha bad mum!


From what I am gathering from the above posts, solid colour is dominant and colourpoint is recessive.

So, two orientals can carry a colourpoint gene and create a colourpoint, but 2 colourpoints cant carry the oriental gene so two colourpoints cannot produce solid coloured kittens, as to be colourpoint themself they need to have two copies of the Colourpoint gene.

Regarding your black cat, either the stud was all black or the stud wasnt the father.


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## louise cat crazy lady (Feb 1, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> From what I am gathering from the above posts, solid colour is dominant and colourpoint is recessive.
> 
> So, two orientals can carry a colourpoint gene and create a colourpoint, but 2 colourpoints cant carry the oriental gene so two colourpoints cannot produce solid coloured kittens, as to be colourpoint themself they need to have two copies of the Colourpoint gene.
> 
> Regarding your black cat, either the stud was all black or the stud wasnt the father.


that's why i said he was 1/2 siamese. the stud wasn't his dad


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> From what I am gathering from the above posts, solid colour is dominant and colourpoint is recessive.
> 
> So, two orientals can carry a colourpoint gene and create a colourpoint, but 2 colourpoints cant carry the oriental gene so two colourpoints cannot produce solid coloured kittens, as to be colourpoint themself they need to have two copies of the Colourpoint gene.
> 
> Regarding your black cat, either the stud was all black or the stud wasnt the father.


I know very little about feline genetics but from human genetics (which must be very similar) I do recall that the genotype (genetic constitution of an individual) can show itself as different phenotypes (the observable properties of an individual). It is not as simple as dominant and recessive in all situations I'm afraid. One needs to also consider the concepts of *penetrance* (the probability a phenotype will appear when a genotype is present) and *expressivity* (the range of phenotypes available from a specific genotype).

Whether these are relevant to the case of black Orientals from Siamese parents is beyond my knowledge.

My Professor will be delighted I actually remembered some genetics after all these years


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

BSH said:


> I know very little about feline genetics but from human genetics (which must be very similar) I do recall that the genotype (genetic constitution of an individual) can show itself as different phenotypes (the observable properties of an individual). It is not as simple as dominant and recessive in all situations I'm afraid. One needs to also consider the concepts of *penetrance* (the probability a phenotype will appear when a genotype is present) and *expressivity* (the range of phenotypes available from a specific genotype).
> 
> Whether these are relevant to the case of black Orientals from Siamese parents is beyond my knowledge.
> 
> My Professor will be delighted I actually remembered some genetics after all these years


So would that mean that a throw back is possible? It all sounds very complicated.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

........ IM NOT BEING FUNNY.... but several people have told u it is not possible.. and you have given a reasonable excuse how your other cat may have mated with your girl!...you either HAVE TO dna profile them... or you CANNOT sell them as pedigrees.... im starting to think that your trying every conceivable way to make these kittens be sired by the stud that you want! and without sounding rude! if your queen was matted correctly and then not allowed around any other males you wouldnt have this issue. even if it was "possible" for this kitten to be a throw back!..... because you have already brought to light that your other cat may have mated with her you would still need to dna test them!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

cat_gaga said:


> Shock horror.
> My seal point siamese queen has just had 4 lovely kittens fathered by my seal point boy. This is her second litter. However, one of the babies is black all over whilst other 3 appear so far to be siamese. Just checked over my paperwork and sire had orientals in pedigree 3 generations ago. Is it possible that this little kitten might be a throw back or should I start blaming the local tom? Any advise much appreciated,
> Thanks


I'm afraid you need to blame the local tom.

Liz


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## Toneeh (Nov 25, 2010)

I've been looking into colours in genetics recently and I've found that whilst Black/blues is usually a very dominant colour, like to whites, creamsand such it is a recessive gene to colours that are tan, red, dark cream, and i think...seal? 

So, is it possible that black/blue has been recessive due to breeding for three generations but now has become dominant in one cat ~(suggesting recessive anyways?) 

This is what I've found with mice and other rodents, so may not be right for cats, but I thought I'd have a go. If you are certain the cat didn't get out or a Tom didn't get in, then maybe it is just recessed? (I mean, it could have been a recessed albino! aha) But either way, you should get the cat's DNA tested if you want to sell them. 

Please don't get mad if i sound a little dumb, I've only just started learning about it aha.

(Black is dominant over colour genes, but is recessive to agouti, tan and red based. For example, if you breed him to a blue, dove, chocolate, black eyed cream etc you'll get blacks, if you breed him to an agouti, cinnamon, argente etc, you'll get agoutis, if you breed him to red or fawn you'll get reds and blacks or agoutis, and finally if you breed him to a tan you'll get tans and possibly selfs.) - So even though this is mice, shouldn't black always be recessive in your cats, and that black shouldn't have shown up in your pedigree litter? I'd DNA check them, because it seems a black/blue shouldnt be there aha >< Naughty cats.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

cat_gaga said:


> I do have a young foreign male that is now 9 months. He is the son of my stud and fw queen.


That's your answer then.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Regarding your black cat, either the stud was all black or the stud wasnt the father.


He doesn't have to be all black, just a solid colour.

Liz


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

cat_gaga said:


> So would that mean that a throw back is possible? It all sounds very complicated.


In the case discussed I can not say. I guess in simple terms what my post is trying to demonstrate is that it is not always black & white with genetics, there are shades of grey. But whether that applies in the colouring of Orientals/ Siamese I can not say. You need an experienced breeder who knows the gentics of such matings to say.

Edit: And I see Liz, who is very experienced, has given you your likely definitive answer.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Cat Gaga

Sorry if i repeat information already given, as I haven't read through this whole thread. I breed colourpoints, so am well up on CP genetics.

The colourpoint gene is a recessive one. That means that in order of ra cat to be a colourpoint, it must possess 2 copies of the colourpoint gene. This means that it is guaranteed that a copy of this will be passed to all offspring. So, if both parents are colourpoints, then all babies have to be colourpoint, as they'll each end up with a copy of the colourpoint gene from each parent.

Here's where it gets more complicated. If you have a CP parent and a solid coloured parent who doesn't carry CP (colourpoint), then all babies will be solid colours, but colourpoint carriers due to them receiving a colourpoint gene from the CP parent.

If the solid parent is a CP carrier, then you can get solid kittens and CP kittens depending on which genes are passed on.

So you see, I hope, that in order to get a solid kitten, one parent has to have been a solid colour.

I'm sorry. I suspect it's not the news you want, but it's definite. There's no way it can be a throw-back due to the fact that both mum and dad have to have two copies of the CP gene, which means that all kittens will have two copies. your cat has mated with more than one boy! Sorry!


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Shayden said:


> ........ IM NOT BEING FUNNY.... but several people have told u it is not possible.. and you have given a reasonable excuse how your other cat may have mated with your girl!...you either HAVE TO dna profile them... or you CANNOT sell them as pedigrees.... im starting to think that your trying every conceivable way to make these kittens be sired by the stud that you want! and without sounding rude! if your queen was matted correctly and then not allowed around any other males you wouldnt have this issue. even if it was "possible" for this kitten to be a throw back!..... because you have already brought to light that your other cat may have mated with her you would still need to dna test them!


Actually, you are being very rude. I'm not trying every conceivable way to 'make these kittens be sired by my stud' at all. I have no intention of selling them whether pedigree or not because they have been promised within the family. I am simply very interested in the subject, and if you had read all the threads properly, you would see that there have been conflicting opinions on the matter. I am really disappointed that so many of the members on this forum are both arrogant and ignorant. I have asked a genuine question, and explored every conceivable answer. And with regard to the assumption that my queen has not been mated properly, how dare you have an opinion when you know nothing about me? I would like to thank the genuine and helpful members on here, but from now on I'll stick to seeking advise from less condescending and patronising sources. Some of you are starting to sound like hissing queens yourselves. I'm not being funny though!!!!


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## KittehNom (Apr 26, 2011)

I have an MSc in Genetics, only finished it 4 years back, am JUST finishing my Medical degree (human medicine admittidly, but the same principles apply for genetics!) so will try and explain as best as I can simple terms:

The BASIC "default" colour for a siamese is the colour point variant. 
In order for a Siamese to be a colour point, the cat will have two recessive genes. One from Mum and one from Dad, we shall call these genotype (the genetic composition of the cat) "aa" (recessive genes are generally expressed as lower case letters)

In order for an oriental cat to be black/grey they most have the DOMINANT gene expressing the fur colour. This gene overrides the colourpoint variant. This means that this cat has got one dominant gene from either its Mum or its Dad, so the cat can have either genotype AA (two dominant genes) or Aa (because the dominant A will override the recessive a)


So here are some theoretical crosses for you:

two siamese colourpoints:
this means BOTH cats MUST be "aa" as they don't have the dominant gene to give the oriental colour. So they can ONLY pass on the "a" gene to their offspring. The cross table would look like this:

Mum a a
Dad 
a aa aa
a aa aa

which means you get 100% colourpoints - all aa genotype.

Another example: If you take an Oriental who had a Colourpoint Mum or Dad, that means that that cat HAS to have at least one dominant A gene (because he is a oriental colour, so needs the dominant gene) and one recessive "a" gene (because the siamese parent can only have passed on the "a" gene as they only have the "a" gene) and you cross that cat with a siamese you get this:

Mum (Aa) A a
Dad (aa)
a Aa aa
a Aa aa

50% colourpoint and 50% oriental kittens. Of course this is all just theoretical! the actual mix may be very different!! Final example:
If you were to cross two half-siamese orientals (so both Aa)

Mum (Aa) A a
Dad (Aa)
A AA Aa
a Aa aa

you would get 75% orientals (because AA and Aa BOTH give oriental kittens) and 25% colourpoint. So this is the example where two oriental cats can still produce colourpoint kittens!!

Back to the original question:

It is HIGHLY unlikely that there has been a spontaneous mutation resulting in the oriental colour now occuring in the litter, but it is not impossible. I fear it is far more likely that the Queen has somehow gotten out  
I for one would want the kittens tested just to be sure, certainly if you are wanting to GCCF register them!! 

There are documented cases of penetrance with these recessive and dominant genes and that might be what has happened here, but I would want to be sure.

Good luck!

x


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

my goodness, it's complicated. Thanks so much for explaining it to me though. I've decided that the little black one is such a suprise that he/she has to stay at home with me now. Bless. And the others were booked by my mother, aunt and brother before they were even conceived (we've always been a mad siamese family). It's a shame that people pressume that because you asked a question, you must be trying to make a quick and dishonest buck.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I am very glad to hear that it all has a happy ending and that the little black boy will be staying with you.
Will you DNA test just to set your mind at rest, or do you not think it is worth it as they are all staying with the family as pets?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

ooh id love you to dna test them, wud luv to see who the dad is! Im really sad and a mojor jeremy kyle fan ha ha


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

KittehNom said:


> There are documented cases of penetrance with these recessive and dominant genes and that might be what has happened here, but I would want to be sure.


You mean incomplete penetrance with the cs allele? I've never heard of that.

I think there is a very obvious explanation in this case. The 9 month old in the house is responsible at least for the balck kitten. If he carries cs (colourpoint) he may well be responsible for more.

OP I know it's a shock, I have had it myself!

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

louise cat crazy lady said:


> that's why i said he was 1/2 siamese. the stud wasn't his dad


Please tell me how you take a cat to a stud to be mated with one boy & she comes back mated by a un-known? 



cat_gaga said:


> So would that mean that a throw back is possible? It all sounds very complicated.


not possible, sorry!



BSH said:


> In the case discussed I can not say. I guess in simple terms what my post is trying to demonstrate is that it is not always black & white with genetics, there are shades of grey. But whether that applies in the colouring of Orientals/ Siamese I can not say. You need an experienced breeder who knows the gentics of such matings to say.
> 
> Edit: And I see Liz, who is very experienced, has given you your likely definitive answer.


not possible, or it would be possible within ragdolls & birmans....... and it isnt lol! 



cat_gaga said:


> my goodness, it's complicated. Thanks so much for explaining it to me though. I've decided that the little black one is such a suprise that he/she has to stay at home with me now. Bless. And the others were booked by my mother, aunt and brother before they were even conceived (we've always been a mad siamese family). It's a shame that people pressume that because you asked a question, you must be trying to make a quick and dishonest buck.


Erm, so you arent going to find out if your other boy sired X amount in the litter?   his not a 'surprise' his a kitten, and one of your other boys sired.


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Well yes I am, and I'm getting my queen health checked too. I would be pretty odd if I didn't.


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## KittehNom (Apr 26, 2011)

lizward said:


> You mean incomplete penetrance with the cs allele? I've never heard of that.
> 
> I think there is a very obvious explanation in this case. The 9 month old in the house is responsible at least for the balck kitten. If he carries cs (colourpoint) he may well be responsible for more.
> 
> ...


When I say 'documented' I mean so rare they are in medical journals!! I'm talking about cases like the African American family who had a perfectly healthy Caucasian girl because 4 generations back their ancestor had married a French girl  genetically the child was theirs, they did the tests!!

It's not cat genetics and it's not quite the same but it's on the same scale of rareness!! I agree completely that the stud in this case is most likely the local Tom.

I was merely making the point that in medicine you never say never!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

cat_gaga said:


> Actually, you are being very rude. I'm not trying every conceivable way to 'make these kittens be sired by my stud' at all. I have no intention of selling them whether pedigree or not because they have been promised within the family. I am simply very interested in the subject, and if you had read all the threads properly, you would see that there have been conflicting opinions on the matter. I am really disappointed that so many of the members on this forum are both arrogant and ignorant. I have asked a genuine question, and explored every conceivable answer. And with regard to the assumption that my queen has not been mated properly, how dare you have an opinion when you know nothing about me? I would like to thank the genuine and helpful members on here, but from now on I'll stick to seeking advise from less condescending and patronising sources. Some of you are starting to sound like hissing queens yourselves. I'm not being funny though!!!!


if you thought i was being rude..... OH WELL... i genuinely wasnt and as most have said already... it was very irresponsible in the first place for ur cats to breed. but whats done is done. i hope all your kittens get neutered at 6 months to prevent this happening again in the future! have a nice day


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

cat_gaga said:


> Well yes I am, and I'm getting my queen health checked too. I would be pretty odd if I didn't.


no are you getting the DNA test done to see who has sired who?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

well as shes giving her kittens to friends and family... and im ASSUMING shes going to be neutering them all would there be much point???... im ASSUMING she wont be breeding from the kittens unless another "ACCIDENT" happens


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## quequeg1988 (Mar 13, 2011)

Shayden said:


> well as shes giving her kittens to friends and family... and im ASSUMING shes going to be neutering them all would there be much point???... im ASSUMING she wont be breeding from the kittens unless another "ACCIDENT" happens


you are very rude. I've had enough of PF seriously, cant someone ask a question without being stoned for it! people ask advice and they get accused and abuse.


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

Shayden said:


> well as shes giving her kittens to friends and family... and im ASSUMING shes going to be neutering them all would there be much point???... im ASSUMING she wont be breeding from the kittens unless another "ACCIDENT" happens


You're an idiot. Has an accidental mating suddenly become a chargeable offence? Or are your animals so heavily confined that they can't even breathe properly. My cats have the freedom of the house. And my children have the freedom of being allowed to open doors too. Muppet.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

cat_gaga said:


> Or are your animals so heavily confined that they can't even breathe properly. My cats have the freedom of the house. And my children have the freedom of being allowed to open doors too. Muppet.


there is a happy middle ground you know, not just the two extremes you mention. many breeders manage to breed perfectly responsibly and know which stud fathers which kittens and guess what, their cats can breath too. the way you stated it that makes it sound that anyone who doesnt make the kind of mistake you made, is in someway keeping their cats in substandard conditions. i can assure you thats not the case and its wrong of you to imply that just because someone doesnt make a basic mistake on which stud fathered which kittens that their cats are "so heavily confined that they cant breath"


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## cat_gaga (Jan 6, 2010)

catsmum said:


> there is a happy middle ground you know, not just the two extremes you mention. many breeders manage to breed perfectly responsibly and know which stud fathers which kittens and guess what, their cats can breath too. the way you stated it that makes it sound that anyone who doesnt make the kind of mistake you made, is in someway keeping their cats in substandard conditions. i can assure you thats not the case and its wrong of you to imply that just because someone doesnt make a basic mistake on which stud fathered which kittens that their cats are "so heavily confined that they cant breath"


Well I have been breeding my 4 queens for nearly 5 years and NEVER had an accidental mating. Which is why I was so shocked by the outcome and asked the question in the first case. In case anyone hasn't noticed, my oriinal question doesn't say "Hey guys, my cats have been having a free for all gang bang. I wonder who the Dad is". I WAS BLOODY THERE. It was a planned and monitored mating. But I've got to be realistic. I do have young children and there is a possibility that one of them could have opened the door- or that my sweet looking male kitten has matured before time. I do breed responsibly...........which is why it is such a shock. Maybe people should stop implying that I am irresponsible when they know nothing of me as a breeder.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

The original question here has been answered and it is now up to the OP to decide what action, if any, to take. 
I am closing this due to the insulting direction it has taken.
cat-gaga, I wish you and your kittens all the best and I know if it was me I'd want to know if the young male was the father of one or even all of the kittens.


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