# Recall training



## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Does training recall on a long-line actually work? Or do dogs ultimately know when they are off the lead.

We have been training recall off-lead since the second Oscar arrived home. Calling him when he was coming towards us anyway and rewarding with fuss and food when he arrived. He is now, at 7 months, (seemingly) reliable off-lead. We can call him back when he is heading in the opposite direction, tell him to wait a minute while we assess another dog approaching, then either call him to be on-lead or tell him it's ok to go play. Once he is playing with another dog and we want to carry on we can just say "lets go" and he's happy to leave and carry on the walk with us. He comes away from livestock on the other side of the fence as well.

I haven't tried calling him away from anyone who is giving him a fuss yet (I'd say it's reasonably unlikely that he'd come in that situation and I don't want him to learn he can be rewarded for ignoring me) I wait until they stop fussing then he will come.

I don't think he's perfect and I'm worried what the adolescent thing is going to do to him but I'd say he's doing pretty well so far.

Now, back to the point. Because he is really good off-lead we haven't focussed so much on the recall exercises we have been given at puppy class (which are done on the lead, progressing to a long line and finally, at some unknown distant time in the future, off-lead) so when we do those exercises in class, he's rubbish at THEM.

Other dogs in the class are much better but I know from what the owners have said (outside class! :lol that their recall on walks is not great. Obviously they haven't worked through the full process (same as us really) but they have been doing the exercises that are supposed to help (which we haven't been doing). But one dog in particular is fab at the exercises but as soon as the lead is off he knows it!

Sorry for the long post, I've just myself a bit upset that I'm completely deluding myself that Oscar is any good at recall. Does it HAVE to be formally trained in this progressive way to be a secure response? Or can it be secure the way we have done it? For the first 6 weeks that he was with us he didn't learn anything (formally with treats and things) apart from recall and where to go to the loo, that is how focussed we were on it!

I hate feeling like I've done something not by the puppy-class book, but what we have done seems to have worked... 

Any thoughts? Or was this post too long?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I think puppy classes teach it in that way so that it's controlled. If they just let all the puppies off lead and then tried to call them, the majority wouldn't respond, they'd just want to play with the other puppies and it wouldn't help their recall at all.

I used a longline for the whole of Ollie's life, and guess what, he can't go off lead because he has almost zero recall now. A long line, or even a normal lead has some weight to it, so dogs definitely know if a lead is on or not. 

Personally, if I had another pup again, I would just do what you are doing, because it seems to work well with people who do recall training in that way.


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Same here with Rolo, excellent recall (ahead of the puppy class who did advocate off lead asap), he is 6 weeks in a week or so and his recall went from 100% to 10% on friday!

We went for the long line in our park, but he is a springer and likes to rustle through hedgerow and long grass, so the long line is not practical as a long term solution.

So we have decided to do a double pronged approach, the park play is on a long line as we are usually time restricted and so need to know an end is achievable when we need it, day one as bad on the long line, need pulling in and this was with a high reward of hot dogs. The second time he improved and this afternoon we went on the walk where we couldnt use the long line and carefully selected our recalls and rewarded any natural returns to us using the high value treat and we did really well.

I think this will be hit and miss and we will need to use the long line, but i personally am not keen, but feel we have no choice, the fact that he thought he could ignore us even on the long line makes me think for now at least he is just adolescent and doesnt care lead or not.

Just hope it is a quick passing phase and it doesnt give us toooooo much grief.

One other thing we have unintentionally seemed to have trained in Rolo which we use when a recall isnt important but a change of direction or a re focus on where we are is, is the use of 'this way' he seems to have taken our mutterings used for our own sake as a command and it is seeming to work on changing his focus when a full 'come' may fail.

good luck with however you think!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

As long as it is working, does it really matter how it happened? I never taught my retriever recall, but he always followed me when I called him. I never taught Joshua either, but he still sits and waits to have his lead on. Ferdie will follow if I walk away, but I have to admit that he certainly needs a bit more recall training.

When I think of the hours we spent just searching for our little mongrel, who was a first class escape artist, I am happy with what I have.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> We can call him back when he is heading in the opposite direction, tell him to wait a minute while we assess another dog approaching, then either call him to be on-lead or tell him it's ok to go play. Once he is playing with another dog and we want to carry on we can just say "lets go" and he's happy to leave and carry on the walk with us. He comes away from livestock on the other side of the fence as well.
> 
> Sorry for the long post, I've just myself a bit upset that I'm completely deluding myself that Oscar is any good at recall.
> 
> ...


When you think of a perfect recall what do you think of? A dog that comes back instantly no matter what the distraction. Heading in the opposite direction, other dogs, livestock...how perfect is he?!!

With dog training every dog, and every owner is different. We all want the same end result, and training classes are designed to help you get there, but ultimately we all get there (or not) in our own way.

I've never used a long line on my dog, never had a need to, so i've never taught recall that way, hell I don't even know how he'd react with a long line on!
Maybe practice with a long line to make the trainers happy, but at the end of the day, you've achieved what they are setting out to do in the long term


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

A long line isn't for training per se its a management tool to stop the rehearsal of undesired behaviour - practice makes perfect so we have to prevent rehearsal.

You manage until the dog is ready to work off leash at a certain distraction level. But you achieve that through teaching the dog that good things happen when he recalls and most importantly he doesn't lose out on rewards he has learned to get without your permission.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> As long as it is working, does it really matter how it happened?


Well, that's my thought. Buuuuut the way they were talking at puppy class made me feel as if he can't possibly be any good at recall if he can't do these exercises.

I think the implication was that without training it up like they say we should we are essentially "winging it" and sooner or later he will not come back.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> Well, that's my thought. Buuuuut the way they were talking at puppy class made me feel as if he can't possibly be any good at recall if he can't do these exercises.
> 
> I think the implication was that without training it up like they say we should we are essentially "winging it" and sooner or later he will not come back.


Well, that is the sort of "expert" who believes that their way is the only way. In my job (driving instructor as everyone probably knows) I could be teaching someone a particular manouevre and find out that they already know how to do it, but not my way. They might have had an instructor before who insists it has to be done their way, which they usually have trouble with. I tell them that as long as it is done right, it doesn't matter how it happens. Why spoil a good thing by trying to change it?

Sounds like you are doing fine.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I would certainly prefer if my clients were actively putting lots of reinforcement in the recall bank rather than just winging it. 

Recall and LLW training are the two most common training issues I have clients come to me about - the two usually go together.

Almost 100% of puppy clients say that their puppy has an excellent recall (puppies are compulsive greeters so it sure appears that way). Because of that not a lot of reinforcement is put in the recall bank with puppies and then adolescence hits and the big bad world beckons. Hence we have lots and lots of adolescent and adult dogs with poor recalls.

Just my two cents


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

tripod said:


> I would certainly prefer if my clients were actively putting lots of reinforcement in the recall bank rather than just winging it.
> 
> Recall and LLW training are the two most common training issues I have clients come to me about - the two usually go together.
> 
> ...


He gets loads of reinforcement for coming back/when called, praise and treats and (in the house at least) games with a tug toy.

I don't understand whether you are saying that you think I'm ok as I am or whether I should be using the long line and doing the training exercises. Sorry, I'm just having difficulty interpretting your point.  

What is LLW by the way? Loose lead walking? Yeah, he's rubbish at that but really bood at heal-work.  Another puzzler for me is how heal-work (which is all we have worked on in class) leads to walking on a loose lead... Oscar is either in the zone and walking to heal (because I have asked him to) or he is pulling on the lead, he doesn't have a halfway.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Wasn't talking about you specifically at all - was just explaining my position in relation to actual training rather than just winging it. If you are doing lots and lots and lots of careful rewarding of recalls then you are not winging it 

A long line is for management - you don't need it if the dog is recalling.

On LLW (yes its loose leash walking) - the idea is not to teach the dog to 'heel'. The objective should be to teach the dog that when the leash is on its up to them to move in such a way so as to maintain zero pressure on the leash -> default loose leash.

After that you can teach a closer position with attention for times when that is needed.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Thank you for clarifying. 

If I do a bit of training on the long line to make things go a bit smoother at training class that won't do him any harm will it?

Regards LLW I do wonder why the trainers have decided to work on heel and not LLW first then. My OH has been clicking and treating when the lead goes slack on walks (he does a lot of the walking at the moment as he takes Oscar to work with him most days) and is starting to see some improvement. I may throw in some 10 minute sessions where I concentrate on that when I'm training him. I'm deviating from my own thread topic now. :lol:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Won't do him any harm - its especially useful for working on a particular distraction level that he hasn't been exposed to yet, just for proofing.

Clicking for a slack leash is good although I think it would be more effective to practice that low distraction first, indoors etc. and then to build up to outside on actual walkies.

You can try the zen on leash exericse for indoors. Have puppy on leash and toss a few treats or a fvourite toy just our of reach and wait for any movement that causes leash to loosen.
Click and bound forward. 
As he improves build the distance so he is further from the tossed yummy and must keep the leash loose for one step then two then three and so on.

This is an excellent impulse control exercise too so win-win. It also easily transfers to outside real world goings on - but the just-out-of-reach reward might be a sniffing tree, or another person or dog.

Keep doing what your doing, your getting on great


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

very interesting post, and I must agree with you Werehorse.

I have never used a long line and have never had an issue with recall.

However, I can see how a long line is useful, as Tripod said, when training for recall away from distractions...

but as far as recall goes, I do thnk dogs know when they are truly "free", and if they are free oftenit is not a novelty and should _usually _ result in good recall.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> Thank you for clarifying.
> 
> If I do a bit of training on the long line to make things go a bit smoother at training class that won't do him any harm will it?
> 
> Regards LLW I do wonder why the trainers have decided to work on heel and not LLW first then. My OH has been clicking and treating when the lead goes slack on walks (he does a lot of the walking at the moment as he takes Oscar to work with him most days) and is starting to see some improvement. I may throw in some 10 minute sessions where I concentrate on that when I'm training him. I'm deviating from my own thread topic now. :lol:


Sounds to me like you're doing a great job with Oscar.
I personally never use a line when teaching my dogs recall and I don't really see why your instructors at class are insisting on it but it won't do any harm to teach him and I suppose, as Ann has said, it adds another dimension.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Thank you for the responses everyone, I feel much happier now. 

I like the sound of those zen on leash exercises, Tripod, thanks for the idea.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Never used a line on any of mine, ime not saying they are a bad thing but i think the best chances of good recall (i know not on every breed) is to start as early in the puppies life as possible, nothing too heavy but just casualy calling them in the home, the garden and treating, when mine was old enough to go out they were off the lead. I also think some owners dont allow their pups/dogs to make mistakes what i mean by this is they are not let while on lead to run up to other dogs (which is also a big hurdle to get over) so they end up great recall on the line but then let off they see another dog and away they go straight up to the dog. I do think unless its really nesessary the best is to do is recall train without the lead.


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## Surge (Jan 8, 2011)

In my experience i found that the playing ball was his main focus in life and because of the love he had with the ball, when walking about with no lead as usual he always just either walked by dogs and cats or waited for my command before he decided to do anything. I trained my old dog with no training or advice just common sense and focus. I use food for my current dog because thats what he likes a lot more than toys anyhow.

Getting a pup or dog focused on anything he likes is the key and use that all the time then after a fair bit of play and training the dog might not want to be distracted.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Surge said:


> In my experience i found that the playing ball was his main focus in life and because of the love he had with the ball, when walking about with no lead as usual he always just either walked by dogs and cats or waited for my command before he decided to do anything. I trained my old dog with no training or advice just common sense and focus. I use food for my current dog because thats what he likes a lot more than toys anyhow.
> 
> Getting a pup or dog focused on anything he likes is the key and use that all the time then after a fair bit of play and training the dog might not want to be distracted.


Have to agree with this one, what makes your dog tick once that established focus/use that as your training tool. Its a case of making YOU more interesting/fun than anything else.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Surge said:


> In my experience i found that the playing ball was his main focus in life and because of the love he had with the ball, when walking about with no lead as usual he always just either walked by dogs and cats or waited for my command before he decided to do anything. I trained my old dog with no training or advice just common sense and focus. I use food for my current dog because thats what he likes a lot more than toys anyhow.
> 
> Getting a pup or dog focused on anything he likes is the key and use that all the time then after a fair bit of play and training the dog might not want to be distracted.


Brilliant....!! I love you. Thats exactly what I try (week in week out) in instill into most of the handlers that train here.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I find a long line incredibly difficult to get on with. It drags through poo. It got tangled round my legs. It got tangled round my dog's legs. It got snagged on tough grass. I think I even managed to get it round my neck on one occasion.

Naively, I thought that because I can lunge/long rein a horse, I'd be quite good at having a dog on a long line. Wronnnnnngggggg....


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