# Fox hunting?



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Can anyone clarify what is legal on a hunt these days? My village has a hunt on this morning with absolutely loads of 'supporters' and it made me feel sick to be honest. I felt like getting out of my car and telling them where to go!  I read somewhere that it's still legal for the Hounds to flush out the Foxes and then for the Fox to be killed?

_But exercising hounds, chasing a scent trail and flushing out foxes to be shot are all still legal. Exemptions allow for shooting and using birds of prey_

Not sure what sense that makes considering it says it's legal to shoot one moment and an exemption in the next breath?

How do you know Foxes are not illegally killed still?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

How do you know they were hunting fox?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sure it wasn't drag hunting or something?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Boxing Day is the most important day for hunting in the year, pretty much. As long as multiple dogs aren't used to kill the fox, I believe that is within the law.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> Sure it wasn't drag hunting or something?


I think all the boxing day hunts will be drag hunting.

Hunting Act 2004


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

rona said:


> I think all the boxing day hunts will be drag hunting.
> 
> Hunting Act 2004


Or so they will say


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> Or so they will say


I think the antis come out in force on Boxing day so safer if they drag hunt, more predictably.

They are allowed to hunt foxes still legally


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

Yes, they drag hunt now. I guess they had to train Foxhounds to chase a scent that a person has laid for them. I did drag hunt in Richmond park many years ago when I was working at a riding school there.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Well I assume it was a fox hunt...the hunt master? said he wishes for the law to be overturned. So I can only assume that's what he means.

So what is the illegal part now then? If they're still allowed to kill the fox? I understand they follow a scent trail? But where to exactly? Do they still find a fox at the end of the trail?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Well I assume it was a fox hunt...the hunt master? said he wishes for the law to be overturned. So I can only assume that's what he means.
> 
> So what is the illegal part now then? If they're still allowed to kill the fox? I understand they follow a scent trail? But where to exactly? Do they still find a fox at the end of the trail?


All about drag hunting - Horse & Hound


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

The social gathering ... a good ride in the countryside ... the opportunity to marvel at the working of hounds ... 
The only thing missing is a beautiful, defenceless animal getting ripped to shreds. 
And that's the part they most miss and want to bring back!!!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> The social gathering ... a good ride in the countryside ... the opportunity to marvel at the working of hounds ...
> The only thing missing is a beautiful, defenceless animal getting ripped to shreds.
> And that's the part they most miss and want to bring back!!!


Exactly what makes me feel sick when I see them all having a jolly day out 

Hunting for food/gamekeeping is one thing. Hunting for pure blood sports alone is another thing altogether.

Still, I know how controversial it is and I didn't start the thread to open up a whole can of worms. Was just genuinely interested in what's legal or not these days.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Drag hunting has been around for a long time and a lot of people who drag hunt absolutely hate the thought of chasing a fox to ground. I'm very anti fox hunting but love a good drag hunt. For a start, the course is set, its faster and more exciting but safer and far less horses and riders are injured on a well planned drag hunt than a fox hunt.

Don't presume that those of us that love drag hunting are pro fox hunting too because its just not the case. 

You can no longer use dogs/hounds for fox hunting but you can use hounds following a false scent in drag hunting. If you saw hounds you would of been witnessing a drag hunt, though saying that, fox hunting in all its abhorrent forms still go on and its time the government tightened the system and prosecuted those who break the law. 

If the Tories get back in they are going to remove the ban on fox hunting


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Unfortunately many hunts have no regard for the law & are still hunting down foxes. They are desperately lobbying to get the ban repealed despite overwhelming public support for keeping the hunting ban in place - it is in grave danger of being repealed

For foxes' sake: Don't let the bloody tradition of the Boxing Day hunt return - Comment - Voices - The Independent

LACS have just released this brilliant video to coincide with the boxing day hunts.

[youtube_browser]/BtKw7V7hGok[/youtube_browser]


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> The social gathering ... a good ride in the countryside ... the opportunity to marvel at the working of hounds ...
> The only thing missing is a beautiful, defenceless animal getting ripped to shreds.
> And that's the part they most miss and want to bring back!!!


Such a myth. Why would they want to alienate the extra 50.000 more people paying subscriptions since 2004 to drag hunt?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

They dont care about the law, which is perhaps the only thing we would actually agree on.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Drag hunting has been around for a long time and a lot of people who drag hunt absolutely hate the thought of chasing a fox to ground. I'm very anti fox hunting but love a good drag hunt. For a start, the course is set, its faster and more exciting but safer and far less horses and riders are injured on a well planned drag hunt than a fox hunt.
> 
> Don't presume that those of us that love drag hunting are pro fox hunting too because its just not the case.
> 
> ...


Yes the link that Rona provided explains drag hunting and that does sound like fun. Basically tracking on horse back. I guess the worry for me would be whether it's strictly a drag hunt or not. I mean, I assume these things aren't policed...although there was quite a few police cars around today incase of protesters I imagine.

As the hunt master wishes to have the law overturned and has made his feelings public knowledge I would imagine that's the view of the majority of those joining in on the hunt too


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Drag hunting has been around for a long time and a lot of people who drag hunt absolutely hate the thought of chasing a fox to ground. I'm very anti fox hunting but love a good drag hunt. For a start, the course is set, its faster and more exciting but safer and far less horses and riders are injured on a well planned drag hunt than a fox hunt.
> 
> Don't presume that those of us that love drag hunting are pro fox hunting too because its just not the case.
> 
> ...


Only a few hunts under MFHA have had prosecutions, 97% have been poaching or individuals


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Such a myth. Why would they want to alienate the extra 50.000 more people paying subscriptions since 2004 to drag hunt?


You better ask Tim Bonner why. Tories to legalise fox hunting if they win 2015 general election - Telegraph

_ Tim Bonner, chief executive of the Countryside Alliance, said: "We fully expect the Conservative manifesto commitment to repeal of the Hunting Act to be retained in 2015 and repeal or replacement of the Act is matter of trust between the countryside and the Conservatives. If there is a Conservatve majority, or a Conservative led coalition, there must be action on hunting." _


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

A friend drag hunting in Cornwall today was concerned that the protestors were kicking the hounds and swearing at the little kids. On a drag hunt.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> A friend drag hunting in Cornwall today was concerned that the protestors were kicking the hounds and swearing at the little kids


Strap the kids onto the back of mummy and daddys horse instead of the hounds back, problem solved...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cinnamontoast said:


> A friend drag hunting in Cornwall today was concerned that the protestors were kicking the hounds and swearing at the little kids. On a drag hunt.


You hear a lot of accusations from hunts about protestors harming hounds & horses but despite mobile phones galore ive yet to see any actual filmed evidence. Saw this today though, some of footage filmed by Somerset hunt sabs of a huntsman hitting his horse in the face with a whip




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=688707607894801


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

To be fair I'm not sure bringing your child into a potentially hostile environment is a good idea in the first place. Not that it's right it's directed at the kids or anything, but I'm sure those involved know the potential fall out that might be involved and therefore keep kids away from witnessing that particular behaviour/atmosphere?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Completely anti-hunting too Lou, I hate and detest it. The thought of it returning makes me sick and a clear reason why I'd never would and never have voted Tory.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> You hear a lot of accusations from hunts about protestors harming hounds & horses but despite mobile phones galore ive yet to see any actual filmed evidence. Saw this today though, some of footage filmed by Somerset hunt sabs of a huntsman hitting his horse in the face with a whip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look, I know you're very anti, but this was a mate of mine, not some friend of a friend of a friend. I fail totally to see why she would lie about seeing that today.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cinnamontoast said:


> Look, I know you're very anti, but this was a mate of mine, not some friend of a friend of a friend. I fail totally to see why she would lie about seeing that today.


Yes I am very anti - and I know from the many debates on here you're not. So with all due respect & no offence intended I don't know you or your friend so I wouldn't know if you were honest people or not. Anecdotally speaking myself all the antis I know are antis because they feel empathy for animals - ALL animals.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Anecdotes are all very well, but I really cannot see why a friend of mine would lie to me about an anti kicking a dog. As for honesty, I'm too honest for my own good and right back at you, I don't know you, you don't know me. One, or both of us, could be talking sh!t. That's the Internet for you.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cinnamontoast said:


> Anecdotes are all very well, but I really cannot see why a friend of mine would lie to me about an anti kicking a dog. As for honesty, I'm too honest for my own good and right back at you, I don't know you, you don't know me. One, or both of us, could be talking sh!t. That's the Internet for you.


I've heard pro hunters accuse antis of kicking hounds/horses a thousand times & am yet to see any footage - that is all


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Well I assume it was a fox hunt...


Never assume

it makes an ASS out U and ME


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> I fail totally to see why she would lie about seeing that today.





cinnamontoast said:


> I really cannot see why a friend of mine would lie to me about an anti kicking a dog.


There could be any number of reasons.. possiblities, just off the top of my head might include:
-wants to garner sympathy for hunters
-wants to spread hate about antis
-only telling parts of the story which they expect you to agree with (aka fear of rejection/disagreement)

People lie for many reasons.

Maybe your friend was telling the truth. i'm not calling her a liar... but as you yourself said "anecdotes are all very well".

Should we be expected to believe that these people can afford horses and fancy clothes and whatever else but cant afford a phone with a video camera on it?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> A friend drag hunting in Cornwall today was concerned that the protestors were kicking the hounds and swearing at the little kids. On a drag hunt.


Perhaps they were kicking out at the hounds because the hounds were dangerously out of control in a public place. I don't understand why the rest of us have to keep our dogs under control and pick up their poo but hunters don't. Boxing day is a day for us to keep to areas where we not meet the hunt as I'm fed up with their hounds running up to my on lead dogs and making a nuisance of themselves. Swearing at children is not on but how do we know the children were not taunting them?


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

rona said:


> Such a myth. Why would they want to alienate the extra 50.000 more people paying subscriptions since 2004 to drag hunt?


Not sure what point you're making there, Rona. It's a matter of record that the hunting fraternity/the Countryside Alliance want to see the return of the blood kill. 
Even the Prime Minister has made no secret of his support for hunting and he'd love to see the old ways brought back. 
What does it say about the heart of someone who can find enjoyment in, or at the very best, indifference to, such savagery?

I didn't know about the increase in numbers of 'no kill' drag hunters, though that is both heartening and yet another reason for the 'blood kill' not to be brought back. 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but since the ban, the rural economy has not collapsed and the countryside isn't awash with foxes - there are more urban foxes than rural foxes.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

According to the South West's *Western Morning News* (pro-hunting) "There were no reports of any trouble."


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm very ambivalent about hunting foxes on horses, but I think the law in England is clearer than that up here in Scotland.

Up here you can use hounds to flush foxes out of cover. Waiting guns then shoot the fox.

I don't know how realistic it is to stop a pack of hounds chasing it's prey accross country. I have heard - but don't know for a fact- that since the legislation came in here, the hunts have taken more foxes then ever. Precisely because there is really no escape for them. On the other hand, their end is quick and clean ( at least quicker and cleaner than being chased to exhaustions).

I know how some farmers eradicate foxes from their land. And it's an awful lot worse than hunting them with hounds.

As I said. I'm ambivalent


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

I used to run a livery yard and during the hunting season it wasn't uncommon to have the hunt divert through my land. We often had to stable and sedate a number of horses because of the injury risks. Fences often had to be repaired at our expense and on one occasion my neighbour had to have one of his bullocks shot when it panicked at a hunt and broke its leg. 

They are a bloody nightmare and a rule unto themselves. 

I've obviously known a lot of people that enjoy hunting and you can bet whatever they have in their pocket, they will tell you, "its not about the fox, in fact I always hope the fox gets away; its about the excitement of the chase". I always replied, "you support a barbaric act by being part of the hunt and even if you don't want them to catch a fox, that's no excuse. You can do this without chasing a terrified fox to ground; you can have all the fun of the chase without hurting or terrifying a poor animal".


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

And this is proof, if ever it were needed, that they are not hunting to control the fox population.

North Cotswold hunt caught feeding foxes > Footage shows foxes being fed in area where hunting takes place - ITV News


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Off topic but just to say, I love your avatar Old Shep


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

porps said:


> Should we be expected to believe that these people can afford horses and fancy clothes and whatever else but cant afford a phone with a video camera on it?


I'm going to ignore all your reasons for why she might lie, because I find it pretty damned rude, even if you do add the 'not calling her a liar' having just written half a dozen reasons why she might have lied 

As she herself said today, she spends all her spare money from her minimum wage job on her horse, as do I.

She has a decent phone, but trying to hold 500kg of horse in a crowd with hounds underfoot does not lend itself to videoing anything. Perhaps you'd like to try it? I think helmet cams are not generally used in hunting, too much jumping.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> As she herself said today, she spends all her spare money from her minimum wage job on her horse, as do I.


I thought you said your parents gave you your christmas money in august to buy yourself your lovely horse? Hardly the same?

**EDIT**



cinnamontoast said:


> Mine was the money the parents always give us, given early in August and the result was the rather gorgeous horse I bought!
> 
> What was yours?


[youtube_browser]-0bOH8ABpco[/youtube_browser]


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> I think helmet cams are not generally used in hunting, too much jumping.


[youtube_browser]7ZzWccM_5cM[/youtube_browser]

Go Pro beg to differ...


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> I'm going to ignore all your reasons for why she might lie, because I find it pretty damned rude, even if you do add the 'not calling her a liar' having just written half a dozen reasons why she might have lied
> 
> As she herself said today, she spends all her spare money from her minimum wage job on her horse, as do I.
> 
> She has a decent phone, but trying to hold 500kg of horse in a crowd with hounds underfoot does not lend itself to videoing anything. Perhaps you'd like to try it? I think helmet cams are not generally used in hunting, too much jumping.


if you want to take offence thats your problem.. you stated you couldnt think of any reason why she _might_ lie, so i suggested a few to you... if thats rude, call me rude bwoy.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rona said:


> I think all the boxing day hunts will be drag hunting.


And pigs can fly,

Hunting still goes on and the law turns a blind eye to it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

jon bda said:


> [youtube_browser]7ZzWccM_5cM[/youtube_browser]
> 
> Go Pro beg to differ...


Jumping around a clear field is somewhat different to out there in the countryside.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Yes I am very anti - and I know from the many debates on here you're not. So with all due respect & no offence intended I don't know you or your friend so I wouldn't know if you were honest people or not. Anecdotally speaking myself all the antis I know are antis because they feel empathy for animals - ALL animals.


Unfortunately there is being anti and there is being cruel to animals because you have a prejudice against things OTHER than the act of hunting itself.

I have personally witnessed at first hand antis spraying mace into hounds eyes.

As in all cases there are fantastic people on both sides of the argument and somewhat less than fantastic people in either camp.

Neither holds the monopoly on empathy, kindness or honesty.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I've heard pro hunters accuse antis of kicking hounds/horses a thousand times & am yet to see any footage - that is all


The fact that you have not seen it does not mean it does not exist.

I have not seen the North Pole.

I HAVE seen violence meeted out to hounds, horses and followers with my own eyes, in person.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

porps said:


> Should we be expected to believe that these people can afford horses and fancy clothes and whatever else but cant afford a phone with a video camera on it?


This statement adequately demonstrates all the OTHER baggage, prejudice, ignorance and envy that is disguised as "anti hunting".

People who have no idea that many pro hunters borrow or rent a horse, borrow clothing and spend every last penny on their hobby rather than the things OTHER people choose to spend their money on.

What people spend their money on is their own affair.

What people can afford is their own affair.

But thanks for the post, it illustrates much of the bigotry that accompanies some people's thinking.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> Not sure what point you're making there, Rona. It's a matter of record that the hunting fraternity/the Countryside Alliance want to see the return of the blood kill.
> Even the Prime Minister has made no secret of his support for hunting and he'd love to see the old ways brought back.
> What does it say about the heart of someone who can find enjoyment in, or at the very best, indifference to, such savagery?
> 
> ...


The hunting fraternity don't* seem* as hung up on killing foxes as the antis and press are making out. They don't even *seem* to give the antis much thought either now as they *seem* mainly a minor inconvenience.

Read through hunting forums and although you will come across mention of antis (not so much about killing foxes or the desire to) the main gist seems to be about having a good day out with friends, horses/riding, hounds and sharing stories and pictures.
Sort of like PF actually


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> Unfortunately there is being anti and there is being cruel to animals because you have a prejudice against things OTHER than the act of hunting itself.
> 
> I have personally witnessed at first hand antis spraying mace into hounds eyes.
> 
> ...


Look on any fox hunting thread, in any debate & you'll see the same accusations banded around, all these incidents, yet no one has captured any antis harming animals on camera?

People who support this feel empathy?? They certainly have non for foxes!

[youtube_browser]/zN7i4lkIi40[/youtube_browser]



smokeybear said:


> The fact that you have not seen it does not mean it does not exist.
> 
> I have not seen the North Pole.
> 
> I HAVE seen violence meeted out to hounds, horses and followers with my own eyes, in person.


I've not seen the North Pole either, but there is plenty of evidence to prove it exists.

Anecdotes are all very well, but I dont know you from adam either SB, sorry. Of course its quite possible a minority of antis have hurt the animals involved in the hunt, but ive yet to see ANY evidence at all. However, i've seen plenty of footage of cruelty by pro hunters & have provided a link to the latest incident.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Look on any fox hunting thread, in any debate & you'll see the same accusations banded around, all these incidents, yet no one has captured any antis harming animals on camera?
> 
> People who support this feel empathy?? They certainly have non for foxes!
> 
> ...


There are often reasons that some footage is not available, as I said before cruelty is not confined to any one side, faction or party.

There is plenty of evidence to prove it exists.

the fact that YOU have not seen it, is neither here nor there.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Surely that footage is 23 years old?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Surely that footage is 23 years old?


Yes, its pre ban Rona- My point was pro hunt supporters cannot possibly feel any empathy for foxes.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Hate Fox hunting! I have friends whom do drag hunting and people can't have an issue with drag hunting - its only chasing a scent after all. Its ashame some people feel this even enough and would rather have the thrill of chasing a fox.


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm very much anti hunting but have grown up in a family of hunters. It was and still is normal to them but I saw the videos of some of their hunts and it absolutely broke my heart, both what I was seeing and the horrific sounds of the poor defenceless animals.... I could never understand how they were not affected by such sights for it haunted me. I was always seen as the odd one for my views. I am more odd now since going vegan.

I have a good friend who lives in West Wales and she has plenty of stories of the damage, upset and ignoring of the law which occurs as the hunt goes through her village. Most of the villagers are not happy about this but powerless to do anything about it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I could find loads of footage of Dog trainers abusing dogs, particularly from 20-30 years back.

Am I to judge all trainers from this footage? 

In the case of old footage. Those people may of been bought up in a different era and may already be dead


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I could find loads of footage of Dog trainers abusing dogs, particularly from 20-30 years back.
> 
> Am I to judge all trainers from this footage?
> 
> In the case of old footage. Those people may of been bought up in a different era and may already be dead


The hunt LOBBY are lobbying the tories hard to repeal the hunting ban so they can get back to brutalising wildlife 'legally'! The passage of time hasn't altered the mentality of these cruel knuckledraggers.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> The hunt LOBBY are lobbying the tories hard to repeal the hunting ban so they can get back to brutalising wildlife 'legally'! The passage of time hasn't altered the mentality of these cruel knuckledraggers.


Not just fox hunting its stag and hares anyone who gets pleasure from such so called sport!have a real problem.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This is from the Government

The Hunting Act was passed by Parliament in 2004. It has not been a demonstrable success, and is difficult to enforce. It is an unnecessary drain on police resources and there have been few prosecutions. *Only three hunts have been successfully prosecuted for illegal hunting.*


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I have no problems with Hunting, but what I struggle with is the terrier men digging the foxes out when they have gone to ground and are safe! That's when this turns my stomach it becomes a sport not a hunt!! 

I feel there is bad behaviour from both sides of the camp, some dabs are just as badly behaved as the riders and no one can argue with that....


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

So, on a drag hunt, what happens if the hounds pick up a real scent? I have never understood how anyone can find pleasure in watching a defenceless animal being torn to shreds. Why cant they go out on a good old Boxing Day Hack? Why does it have to involve the death of an animal to make it appealing?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> So, on a drag hunt, what happens if the hounds pick up a real scent? I have never understood how anyone can find pleasure in watching a defenceless animal being torn to shreds. Why cant they go out on a good old Boxing Day Hack? Why does it have to involve the death of an animal to make it appealing?


It doesn't that's why there's been an increase of 50,000 people taking part


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> This is from the Government
> 
> The Hunting Act was passed by Parliament in 2004. It has not been a demonstrable success, and is difficult to enforce. It is an unnecessary drain on police resources and there have been few prosecutions. *Only three hunts have been successfully prosecuted for illegal hunting.*


*Strange how they can find enough police resources when it comes to motorists though.
If they wanted to police it, they would.*


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

If the hunting community don't seem as hung up on killing foxes as we're led to believe, why has the hunt master on the hunt in my village made his feelings public knowledge on wanting the law overturned? What possible reason could he want for the hunting act to be reinstated? 

He wants to be able to kill foxes. That's how I see it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> If the hunting community don't seem as hung up on killing foxes as we're led to believe, why has the hunt master on the hunt in my village made his feelings public knowledge on wanting the law overturned? What possible reason could he want for the hunting act to be reinstated?
> 
> He wants to be able to kill foxes. That's how I see it.


One master one hunt.

Most of the masters are old school I would think. To become master I would assume you joined the hunt quite a while ago and in a different era

Out of interest. What hunt is it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

........................


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

suewhite said:


> Not just fox hunting its stag and hares anyone who gets pleasure from such so called sport!have a real problem.


Absolutely. However pro hunters try to dress it up killing anything for the fun of it is plain sick and disgusting.

I was really upset when I read about this incident of Surrey union hunt savaging this beautiful roe deer - & the police arrested the sabs! https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.790591354336549.1073741912.572783666117320&type=1



rona said:


> This is from the Government
> 
> The Hunting Act was passed by Parliament in 2004. It has not been a demonstrable success, and is difficult to enforce. It is an unnecessary drain on police resources and there have been few prosecutions. *Only three hunts have been successfully prosecuted for illegal hunting.*


Well a Countryside Alliance government would say that wouldn't they? lol Theres no doubt it needs strengthening but its an excellent piece of legislation.

_ The Hunting Act 2004 has proven to be the most successful
wild animal welfare legislation in England and Wales, with an
average of one prosecution a week under the Act and two
thirds of defendants convicted. Yet, since its introduction, the
Hunting Act has been the target of considerable attack from the
pro-hunt lobby. In an effort to publicly discredit the legislation
and promote their campaign for repeal, the hunting community
has waged an ongoing and concerted campaign of
disinformation about the Act.

The last ten years have shown that the Hunting Act is enforceable
and has widespread public support; however, it has also shown
just how determined some hunters are to continue persecuting
wild animals in the name of sport. That some people continue to
partake in this cruel and illegal pastime does not mean the Act is
a bad piece of legislation, rather that hunters have little respect
for the law, the will of Parliament and the wishes of the British
public. Nonetheless, ten years on, we believe there is room for
improvement in the Hunting Act.

_
http://www.league.org.uk/~/media/Files/LACS/Publications/Hunting-Act-Report-2014.pdf



piggybaker said:


> I have no problems with Hunting, but what I struggle with is the terrier men digging the foxes out when they have gone to ground and are safe! That's when this turns my stomach it becomes a sport not a hunt!!
> 
> I feel there is bad behaviour from both sides of the camp, some dabs are just as badly behaved as the riders and no one can argue with that....


Everything about foxhunting is brutally inhumane PB. The vast majority of serious convictions have been on hunters.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> What people spend their money on is their own affair.


so long as it doesnt impact on others

i include foxes when i say 'others'


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Plain and simple - its barbaric. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Oh gosh Noushka those pictures!! :crying: Horrific and very upsetting.



rona said:


> One master one hunt.
> 
> Most of the masters are old school I would think. To become master I would assume you joined the hunt quite a while ago and in a different era
> 
> Out of interest. What hunt is it?


I'd rather not say here on the thread as it gives away my village. But I'll PM you if you're really interested.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm new to this forum, so I'm sure you've discussed this many times and will often have voiced the opinion I hold. But I'll say it anyway!

I can understand killing animals (humanely) for food. To kill anything for pleasure is, to me, a sign of a society which is not yet civilised.

I find both the justification that fox hunting is undertaken 'for the excitement of the chase' and that opposition to it is somehow 'class warfare' equally insulting to what little intelligence I have.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I hope so much that the law on hunting is not repealed. I fear it will be if the Tories or UKIP (or coalition) get in it will be .


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> This statement adequately demonstrates all the OTHER baggage, prejudice, ignorance and envy that is disguised as "anti hunting".
> 
> People who have no idea that many pro hunters borrow or rent a horse, borrow clothing and spend every last penny on their hobby rather than the things OTHER people choose to spend their money on.
> 
> ...


Plenty of hunters make similar prejudiced and ignorant assumptions about people who do not agree with their particular taste in "sport". My OH used to sab and was often called an ignorant peasant or told to get back to his council estate. Quite funny really seeing as he went to public school, owned horses at the time and is a professional  A lot of people assumed that as horse owners we would be pro hunting and got a shock when told we most certainly were not and similarly because we now own gundogs people assume we are pro shooting which we are not - the dogs were cast off by the shooting people - one was going to be shot himself for being gunshy and no use to them. The cruelty isn't confined to the field.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

Fox hunting is vile.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Plenty of hunters make similar prejudiced and ignorant assumptions about people who do not agree with their particular taste in "sport". My OH used to sab and was often called an ignorant peasant or told to get back to his council estate. Quite funny really seeing as he went to public school, owned horses at the time and is a professional  A lot of people assumed that as horse owners we would be pro hunting and got a shock when told we most certainly were not and similarly because we now own gundogs people assume we are pro shooting which we are not - the dogs were cast off by the shooting people - one was going to be shot himself for being gunshy and no use to them. The cruelty isn't confined to the field.


Cruelty certainly isn't confined to the field, like your dog our late springer was a gunshy gundog. My Dad went to Carnousti on a golfing holiday & came back with Sam. He couldn't bare the thought of him being shot. Sam was only 12 months old when we got him. Then theres the fate of the thousands of foxhounds shot because when their working days are over or simply because they didn't make the grade. 'Sport' hunting are industries built upon cruelty.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm not agreeing with th anti hunt sentiment here, but nether am I agreeing th the pro hunt views, but, surely, you are arguing about something which has, in England at least, been eradicated? 

I'm not sure what the discussion is trying to achieve. Hunting animals th hounds is banned in England. As with all laws, it will occasionally be broken by some people.

No one seems to be arguing for a repeal of the law.


I don't think anyone could argue that hunting foxes with hounds is either efficient or humane.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I'm not agreeing with th anti hunt sentiment here, but nether am I agreeing th the pro hunt views, but, surely, you are arguing about something which has, in England at least, been eradicated?
> 
> I'm not sure what the discussion is trying to achieve. Hunting animals th hounds is banned in England. As with all laws, it will occasionally be broken by some people.
> 
> ...


The Government if elected will promise another free vote to repeal the hunting law and then will not just be foxes.Mr Cameron enjoyed stag hunting.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I'm not agreeing with th anti hunt sentiment here, but nether am I agreeing th the pro hunt views, but, surely, you are arguing about something which has, in England at least, been eradicated?
> 
> I'm not sure what the discussion is trying to achieve. Hunting animals th hounds is banned in England. As with all laws, it will occasionally be broken by some people.
> 
> ...


I asked my original question as I had read that it is still legal to kill foxes on a hunt and I was confused by that one line I read in the article I quoted.

Was genuinely unsure as to what the law entails as aside from knowing it was/is banned I don't know all the ins/outs.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I asked my original question as I had read that it is still legal to kill foxes on a hunt and I was confused by that one line I read in the article I quoted.
> 
> Was genuinely unsure as to what the law entails as aside from knowing it was/is banned I don't know all the ins/outs.


I posted a link to the law a long way back 

Post 5...........................


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> This statement adequately demonstrates all the OTHER baggage, prejudice, ignorance and envy that is disguised as "anti hunting".
> 
> People who have no idea that many pro hunters borrow or rent a horse, borrow clothing and spend every last penny on their hobby rather than the things OTHER people choose to spend their money on.
> 
> ...


I rather think that underlines your own prejudice, rather than that of poor Porps.
Unfair to break things down to 'money and class' which is what you seem to be insinuating.

I don't see anyone here railing against drag hunting. 
If people want to ride around the countryside all day, fine. As a horse lover I can well appreciate the exhilaration of that.
If people want to marvel at the working of dogs, again fine. I'll be the first to admit that watching a bloodhound 'on the scent' is nothing short of amazing.
Just cut out the bit which involves ripping a beautiful, defenceless animal to shreds, that's my only objection.

Badger-baiting, dog-fighting, cock-fighting and bear-baiting were all 'traditional' country 'sports' at one time. "Hard-working country folk having a bit of fun" and "Where's the harm?" and "Why can't these town people just keep out of it?"
Washed away by *moral progress* and the march of civilization.

Fox-hunting becomes morally righteous if you wear a red jacket and a riding hat? It's no less repugnant to set dogs on a fox, than it is to set them on a badger or a bear or another dog.

Freedom of speech, absolutely. But think first before you put your name and soul to something.

And another point. The usual crowing of 250,000 spectators for the Boxing Day meets. A figure which hasn't changed much over the years. Assuming 50,000 are townies on a day out. That leaves 200,000 rural dwellers. Sounds good - or is it? A free event, right on their doorstep. And only around 3 - 4% of the rural population turn out to see it. Where are the other 96 - 97%??? 
This is "the overwhelming support for hunting amongst rural dwellers"?

PS: I'm a 'country boy'.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Our Prime Minister's view on blood sports ...
Fox hunting: David Cameron supports relaxation of ban on hunting with dogs - Mirror Online


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Strange how they can find enough police resources when it comes to motorists though.
> If they wanted to police it, they would.*


When the police do turn up they more often look to the sabs for causing trouble rather than the hunt for committing illegal activity. Thankfully, due to most mobiles now having decent recording facilities, they have begun recording the antics of both the police & the hunt and are finally in a position to prove that hunts are still illegally going after the foxes, the riders do assault the sabs and that the police, very often, do nothing. One sab was hospitalised earlier this year due to a rider purposely changing their riding course and going straight for her. Again, it was caught recorded and the case is waiting to go to court.

David Cameron is expected to include the repeal of the Hunting Act in his election manifest. A MORI poll released on Boxing Day shows that 80% of those who were asked do NOT want to see fox hunting brought back.

Personally, my Tory MP can take a long walk off a short pier because NOTHING will make me vote for this bunch of blood-thirsty, inhumane morons. After all, if they can do this to animals, what will they do the people who are 'surplus to requirement' eh??

.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> I rather think that underlines your own prejudice, rather than that of poor Porps.
> Unfair to break things down to 'money and class' which is what you seem to be insinuating.
> 
> I don't see anyone here railing against drag hunting.
> ...


Rather odd as Fox hunting is banned. Fox shooting or snaring now, that's different


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rona said:


> Jumping around a clear field is somewhat different to out there in the countryside.


Thanks for quoting him, he's on my ignore list so I can't see what he posts. Cameras are not allowed in competitions and I think if someone tried to use one on a hunt, the hunt master would probably have a fit. They tend to be old fashioned.



smokeybear said:


> This statement adequately demonstrates all the OTHER baggage, prejudice, ignorance and envy that is disguised as "anti hunting".
> 
> People who have no idea that many pro hunters borrow or rent a horse, borrow clothing and spend every last penny on their hobby rather than the things OTHER people choose to spend their money on.
> 
> ...


I could bang on about the fact that many people buy foals very cheaply and bring them on, spending all their money on the horse. Horses are regularly hired out, especially in Ireland (hirelings) but most people who own horses that I know spend literally all their money on caring for the horse. My mate borrowed my show outfit last show, I often get another mate bits and bobs cos she's young and on a worse wage than me, she helps me with chores in return. No-one of my acquaintance with a horse has any other hobby. My hunting mate was called a 'posh toff' yesterday, just hilarious! Variously, my horsey mates are a secretary in a hospital, a security guard at a college, an extra on Eastenders, a vet, a dog groomer, the equine technician at a vet college, a bar manager, a primary teacher. None of those listed hunt or went to public school or are upper class.

Lots of bigotry either side of the argument, this is a regular and never ending row. Just to set the record straight for those who have made charming assumptions about me even though you're clueless about me: I disagree with fox hunting. I think drag hunting is fine. If a fox is a problem, then it's easier and kinder to shoot it. A quick and hopefully knows nothing about it is the better thing to do, IMO, not a terrified animal cornered and ripped to shreds by a baying pack.

Now, must be off to muck out my cheapo traveller type cob and oil his legs so he can go out in the swamp tomorrow.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Taking it out on defenceless wood pigeons now instead ...
David Cameron had an ARMED GUARD so he could go on a secret PIGEON shoot - Mirror Online


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Thanks for quoting him, he's on my ignore list so I can't see what he posts. Cameras are not allowed in competitions and I think if someone tried to use one on a hunt, the hunt master would probably have a fit. They tend to be old fashioned.
> 
> Lots of bigotry either side of the argument, this is a regular and never ending row. Just to set the record straight for those who have made charming assumptions about me even though you're clueless about me:* I disagree with fox hunting*. I think drag hunting is fine. If a fox is a problem, then it's easier and kinder to shoot it. A quick and hopefully knows nothing about it is the better thing to do, IMO, *not a terrified animal cornered and ripped to shreds by a baying pack. *
> 
> Now, must be off to muck out my cheapo traveller type cob and oil his legs so he can go out in the swamp tomorrow.


Sorry  I hate it when someone quotes a person I have on ignore 

I agree with the bits highlighted. I just hate the hysteria that some bring into it 

OMG don't mention travellers, you'll set em off again


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> Taking it out on defenceless wood pigeons now instead ...
> David Cameron had an ARMED GUARD so he could go on a secret PIGEON shoot - Mirror Online


FFS
Was that clay pigeons as that's what the picture is


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Rona: Just for you ...

Countryside Alliance says Boxing Day Hunts will attract 250,000 supporters and herald year of campaigning for end to ban | Western Morning News


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> Rona: Just for you ...
> 
> Countryside Alliance says Boxing Day Hunts will attract 250,000 supporters and herald year of campaigning for end to ban | Western Morning News


Yes I'm well aware of what the papers are saying. To be honest, the CA is classed as a joke with the grass routes of the countryside. 
Would never ever have joined them, they are just as bad as some of the anti organizations at stirring trouble.

If you want to see what is really going on, read what BASC or GWCT or MFHA are saying not these organizations with political agendas. The CA propaganda can sometimes be very damaging


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

This has just come up on my FB page...

Conservative plan to repeal the fox hunting ban is a waste of time | Metro News

Interesting that the poll at the end is currently 77% against hunting. Very very close to the 80% against in the recent MORI poll and I'm sure different people are voting on this one than on the MORI poll.

.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> This has just come up on my FB page...
> 
> Conservative plan to repeal the fox hunting ban is a waste of time | Metro News
> 
> ...


Pointless really. It will never come back.

I truly believe that this is diversionary tactic by the government 

It's taking everyones eyes off of the ball...........I just wish I knew what the other ball was


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> This has just come up on my FB page...
> 
> Conservative plan to repeal the fox hunting ban is a waste of time | Metro News
> 
> ...


I'd say the vast majority were against it, but what do we know, we're just ignorant townsfolk.  Odd how we never try and use that excuse to stop the countryside voting in town matters isn't it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

negative creep said:


> I'd say the vast majority were against it, but what do we know, we're just ignorant townsfolk.  Odd how we never try and use that excuse to stop the countryside voting in town matters isn't it?


Do you know how farming works, how a shoot works or even how a fox lives?

I do.................or used to

I haven't a clue how the buses run, what times the shops are open or where the cafes are..................

It's just common sense that people who live in a town cannot possibly know as much about the countryside as one who lives in it and vice versa

As I said, the CA is as bad as the antis at stirring the pot


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> Rona: Just for you ...


Excellent example of propaganda where the article doesn't match the content. So how many of these 250,000 are there to watch dogs rip a fox apart and are campaigning for the return of fox hunting rather than enjoying a day out drag hunting?


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

rona said:


> Do you know how farming works, how a shoot works or even how a fox lives?
> 
> I do.................or used to
> 
> ...


But when was the last time you heard someone say "only people who live in towns should be allowed a say in this"?


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

rona said:


> Do you know how farming works, how a shoot works or even how a fox lives?
> 
> I do.................or used to
> 
> ...


And not all country folk (or even farmers ) are pro hunting and townsfolk anti.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

negative creep said:


> But when was the last time you heard someone say "only people who live in towns should be allowed a say in this"?


I couldn't see in that article where anyone said that. Can you highlight it please?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

How many times are we told that this or that animal is now almost extinct due to humans,will it one day be the animals that alot are so keen to hunt.My local farmer would not allow fox hunting on his land and has always said they do more good keeping the rabbitt population down.Humans havent made a very good job of looking after the World let alone driving those that we share it with to extinction.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

suewhite said:


> How many times are we told that this or that animal is now almost extinct due to humans,will it one day be the animals that alot are so keen to hunt.My local farmer would not allow fox hunting on his land and has always said they do more good keeping the rabbitt population down.Humans havent made a very good job of looking after the World let alone driving those that we share it with to extinction.


Another fact regularly kept hidden under the carpet is that, prior to the ban, the breeding of foxes was a regular occurance to ensure there would be sufficient numbers for the hunting season. A fact conveniently forgotten when the complaint "we are over-run by the fox population" is trotted out as a pathetic excuse for repealing the Act.

And, if anyone was wondering, the fox population has maintained the same level since the act came into being. There has not been the explosion in their numbers the pro-hunters argued there would be when they tried to prevent the Act going through.

.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rona said:


> Sorry  I hate it when someone quotes a person I have on ignore
> 
> I agree with the bits highlighted. I just hate the hysteria that some bring into it
> 
> OMG don't mention travellers, you'll set em off again


Don't mind, I just don't want to see it usually.

Oops, he is the archetypal traveller cob, bit too tall for their preference, but a top example, feathers galore, 10 inches of bone (that's his under the knee measurement! ) and he likes to do the super fast trot. 



negative creep said:


> I'd say the vast majority were against it, but what do we know, we're just ignorant townsfolk.  Odd how we never try and use that excuse to stop the countryside voting in town matters isn't it?


Sorry, this is what people who really don't know enough but may well read the Daily Fail might say. What has where you live got to do with it? Looking at the amount of trailers at any hunt gathering, I'm going to bet that most people that hunt aren't necessarily country. I live in a very urban area. Within 15 minutes, there are about 20 livery yards. Some of the owners must hunt, I'm sure. It's not all 'posh toff' landowner types.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> How many times are we told that this or that animal is now almost extinct due to humans,will it one day be the animals that alot are so keen to hunt.My local farmer would not allow fox hunting on his land and has always said they do more good keeping the rabbitt population down.Humans havent made a very good job of looking after the World let alone driving those that we share it with to extinction.


Do you know, the places I see most wildlife are shooting farms around here. The "Nature Reserves" have far too many visitors and the animals have vacated 

The best place I know of is an estate that is rewilding, but also running a successful *very* free range (1000s of acres) farming enterprise and a smallish family/friends shoot


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> Looking at the amount of trailers at any hunt gathering, I'm going to bet that most people that hunt aren't necessarily country.


Do you think all the country yokels rides the ponies there?


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> Sorry, this is what people who really don't know enough but may well read the Daily Fail might say. What has where you live got to do with it? Looking at the amount of trailers at any hunt gathering, I'm going to bet that most people that hunt aren't necessarily country. I live in a very urban area. Within 15 minutes, there are about 20 livery yards. Some of the owners must hunt, I'm sure. It's not all 'posh toff' landowner types.


Because one of the first arguments put forward by hunt supports is that it's a countryside tradition that people who live in cities don't understand


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> Do you know, the places I see most wildlife are shooting farms around here. The "Nature Reserves" have far too many visitors and the animals have vacated
> 
> The best place I know of is an estate that is rewilding, but also running a successful *very* free range (1000s of acres) farming enterprise and a smallish family/friends shoot


I feel very lucky Rona to be able to sit and watch a family of foxes with the cubs like a litter of puppies playing and if I go to a certain part of the farm I have seen a family of badgers rushing about playing, beats shooting them anyday.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I grew up in the Cambridgeshire and Essex countryside and now live in the city centre of Cambridge and I do understand hunting, hare coursing etc. I still object to it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> I feel very lucky Rona to be able to sit and watch a family of foxes with the cubs like a litter of puppies playing and if I go to a certain part of the farm I have seen a family of badgers rushing about playing, beats shooting them anyday.


Land has to remain in private hands though. If it's all in the hands of these "conservation" (joke) bodies there won't be anything left.

You can just tell their little coffers opening with glee when they get an unusually species present and they tell all and sundry who then descend on that site 

The main object of their desire will be ok but the rest of the wildlife is forgotten.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

That's a bit unfair, Rona (unless I have misunderstood you)

The john Muir Trust, who own a LOT of land up here aim to create an balanced ecosystem. They shoot deer on the land they own (as they are extremely destructive) and try to persuade landowners to control their numbers. 

Unfortunately, deer forest (which, confusingly, is not actual forest because there are so many deer) is valued according to the number of deer it holds(I won't say 'supports' as some landowners actually feed the deer to swell the numbers)

Some landowning organisations are trying to repair the damage caused by mans greed. And snobbery.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> That's a bit unfair, Rona (unless I have misunderstood you)
> 
> The john Muir Trust, who own a LOT of land up here aim to create an balanced ecosystem. They shoot deer on the land they own (as they are extremely destructive) and try to persuade landowners to control their numbers.
> 
> ...


Mmm

Ben Nevis......we all know how busy that is

Schiehallion.....made a path so even more people can get to the out of the way places 

Sandwood Bay.......a toilet block for all the people and oh a campsite too on one of their tenant farms

Quinag in Assynt,.....hopefully too big to be totally exploited.

Bits of Skye.......well!!!

Knoydart peninsula........... safe until they sort out a ferry

They are one of the better ones however


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

I took my LO to watch our local hunt this year and last year on her birthday we would've gone to the local boxing day hunt too but my friends mum who we usually go to watch had an accident a couple weeks before, it's one of my LO's birthday treats she loves the horses, hounds and people. The hunts we go to are drag hunts

Ironically I have seen a fox killed or at least badly maimed by dogs before but not foxhounds. walking through a big local park with my LO in the pushchair a couple years ago I saw something walking around in the bushes a way away by the road (thought it was a dog) then two Jack Russells went running at it and tried to kill it, it got away at one point but was badly injured and followed by the dogs whose owner made no attempt to get them back so i expect they killed it, that was hard to watch


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

negative creep said:


> Because one of the first arguments put forward by hunt supports is that it's a countryside tradition that people who live in cities don't understand


I think the vast majority of hunt supporters can cope with the people who live in cities understanding that it's an old tradition. I have yet to hear that argument from a hunt supporter. If anything, one could argue that foxes are more of a PITA in the city where there are lots causing issues because we've encroached ever further on their territory and they have nowhere left to go.  There's a family of them two gardens away from me.


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## Jadestubeau (Aug 23, 2014)

Yet another thread that has turned sour and personal attacks being made.
The op didn't know what type of hunt it was. It could have been a drag hunt, most probably was. I think that is quite a big issue that anyone riding a horse has money, and if they have hounds or are following hounds then they are obviously fox hunting.

It's people jumping to conclusions that cause issues.

I am anti fox hunting but not anti drag hunting. The dogs are trained to follow the scent of the bag or human that is spreading the scent, they wouldn't recognise the scent of a fox and just wander off to track it. 

No body on this thread said they were pro hunting.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Not seeing personal attacks? This is an unusually calm hunting thread!


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> I think the vast majority of hunt supporters can cope with the people who live in cities understanding that it's an old tradition. I have yet to hear that argument from a hunt supporter. If anything, one could argue that foxes are more of a PITA in the city where there are lots causing issues because we've encroached ever further on their territory and they have nowhere left to go.  There's a family of them two gardens away from me.


To be honest I've heard that argument a lot (as well as it being class envy). Foxes in the cities are an interesting one - wonder what would happen if my and 50 mates were charging through the neighbourhood hunting them?


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

negative creep said:


> To be honest I've heard that argument a lot (as well as it being class envy). Foxes in the cities are an interesting one - wonder what would happen if my and 50 mates were charging through the neighbourhood hunting them?


Try it and find out. Be sure to run through folks gardens and shout very loudly at anyone you see as you pass by. Make sure your intimidation levels are set at very high. When asked what you are doing, just say it is a centuries old tradition and therefore you should be allowed to carry on your way.

I will be interested to hear the outcome. 

.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

negative creep said:


> To be honest I've heard that argument a lot (as well as it being class envy). Foxes in the cities are an interesting one - wonder what would happen if my and 50 mates were charging through the neighbourhood hunting them?





MoggyBaby said:


> Try it and find out. Be sure to run through folks gardens and shout very loudly at anyone you see as you pass by. Make sure your intimidation levels are set at very high. When asked what you are doing, just say it is a centuries old tradition and therefore you should be allowed to carry on your way.
> 
> I will be interested to hear the outcome.
> 
> .


Don't forget letting your dog run loose along the road beside you!  If you hold up traffic, tough luck to them. You just carry on and enjoy yourself on a fantastic day out


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

negative creep said:


> . Foxes in the cities are an interesting one - wonder what would happen if my and 50 mates were charging through the neighbourhood hunting them?


Wereas a lot of the farmers are happy to have them on their land because the hunt take fallen stock. I can't see urbanites have the same link to you


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Don't forget letting your dog run loose along the road beside you!  If you hold up traffic, tough luck to them. You just carry on and enjoy yourself on a fantastic day out


Well horse riders and bl**dy cyclist hold up traffic all the time for their pleasure


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rona said:


> Well horse riders and bl**dy cyclist hold up traffic all the time for their pleasure


Highway Code gives horseriders right of way, I believe. I am frequently saddened to see horrific pictures of horses killed by impatient drivers who can't possibly slow down or wait for ten seconds for a rider to get out of their way 

I wonder if this thread will now go on about 'ooh, I pay my road tax, riders don't'. Had this discussion elsewhere yesterday.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Highway Code gives horseriders right of way, I believe. I am frequently saddened to see horrific pictures of horses killed by impatient drivers who can't possibly slow down or wait for ten seconds for a rider to get out of their way


So do cyclists and pedestrians. Don't think you'd get away with running one down even if you really wanted to


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> Well horse riders and bl**dy cyclist hold up traffic all the time for their pleasure


They do yes. I also get equally peed off with some of them. Especially cyclists who insist on riding two abreast!


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

rona said:


> Well horse riders and bl**dy cyclist hold up traffic all the time for their pleasure


That was a joke right?!?


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Why is it that some drivers see horse and rider or cyclist in the same context as a traffic cone?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Why is it that some drivers see horse and rider or cyclist in the same context as a traffic cone?


I'm fine with cyclists as long as they don't insist on riding two abreast and risking the driver's behind them having to really pull out to overtake them etc. Can be impossible on the small back roads to get past them.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> Try it and find out. Be sure to run through folks gardens and shout very loudly at anyone you see as you pass by. Make sure your intimidation levels are set at very high. When asked what you are doing, just say it is a centuries old tradition and therefore you should be allowed to carry on your way.
> 
> I will be interested to hear the outcome.
> 
> .


Great idea, anyone want to join me? If we have time afterwards we could get a couple of roosters to fight to the death then hang that old woman who lives with that black cat because I'm pretty sure she's a witch. We have to preserve our traditions after all.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I think a lot of non horsey people think they're like big dogs. There's a garage at my yard, so lots of cars coming in. The other night, a guy drove down, blocked the lane with his van, headlights on full beam and wanted a girl bringing in two horses to wait for 'just a minute' while he dumped the van off and explained the issues. Oddly, the horses wouldn't stand quietly in full beam lights and he was obliged to move before a 500kg animal went mad.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

negative creep said:


> Great idea, anyone want to join me? If we have time afterwards we could get a couple of roosters to fight to the death then hang that old woman who lives with that black cat because I'm pretty sure she's a witch. We have to preserve our traditions after all.


I'm sure I could knock together an old-style dunking stool, just to add to our traditional fun. 

Sounds like it's gonna be a cracking day out. :laugh:

.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> Highway Code gives horseriders right of way, I believe. I am frequently saddened to see horrific pictures of horses killed by impatient drivers who can't possibly slow down


Highway code fair enough, make them take something akin to a cycling proficiency test before being allowed to take a horse on a public highway?

The scariest moment i have ever had since i started driving many years ago was coming around a corner on a NSL road to find some numpty on a pushbike barely going fast enough to keep moving start waving his arms at me whilst about ten feet in front of a rider on a horse...both riding up the white lines in the MIDDLE of the road...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Preferabley make them clear up their horses poo too. Not fun having to try and miss it on the roads, or worse having it dumped everywhere on a narrow public footpath track and having to avoid it with dogs trying to eat it as they go along


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Before I took my BHS exams I had to do a "riding road safety test". I think its a good idea, especially for young riders on the road. 

Learner drivers need to learn about horses as well as cyclists. Many drivers don't think of the horse in the road as a live unpredictable animal. Many see it as a frustrating obstacle that has slowed them down. We deliberately ride well away from the curb so that cars have to properly overtake us and not try and squeeze past us between an oncoming car. Drivers should be taught to understand that a horse can shy into the road and the path of a car at any moment and so overtake slowly and carefully, giving a wide birth to the animal and rider.

I was once hit on the back of the leg by a woman driving a Volvo and trying to slowly squeeze past me. The normally placid and road worthy horse reared up and came down on her bonnet. Fortunately the horse was unharmed; I can't say the same for the Volvo and the very irate woman tried blaming me and my nut case of a horse  That horse could never be ridden on the road again. That inconsiderate driver screwed with his head and he was forever terrified of traffic after that.

The problem for us horse riders is, to get to most bridleways, we need to ride down roads to get to them. Most of us don't like using roads any more than you do, especially if we have a bit of a feisty horse but we are often left with little choice.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I was riding up a quiet road with no traffic when suddenly a car came up behind me and peeped his horn repeatedly as he overtook me. Luckily the horse I was riding was brilliant in traffic (till one day he was knocked by an overtaking post office van).

Turned out I knew the driver and I asked him later what he thought he was doing. He was genuinely sorry and said he thought he was doing the right thing by "alerting" me that he was about to overtake.

Rona: I'm not sure what point you were making by listing the JMT properties in Scotland???


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Preferabley make them clear up their horses poo too. Not fun having to try and miss it on the roads, or worse having it dumped everywhere on a narrow public footpath track and having to avoid it with dogs trying to eat it as they go along


Horses aren't allowed down public footpaths unless it specifically states it has bridleway access. Most riders are responsible, I apologize for those that spoil it for the rest of us.

As for picking up poo, should we carry a bucket with us and dismount and clean it up every time the horse has a dump? Would that not cause a bit of a hazard in the road?

Dogs eat it because its good for them 

I accept that some people just resent us folk doing the same thing we've been doing for hundreds of years.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Living on the edge of the 'countryside', I accept that driving down country roads and lanes means I am very likely to come across horses & riders when I use them. I always slow down to a crawl, and even turn down my music in case it is too loud, and try to pass the animal(s) with the minimum of fuss to ensure they are not spooked.

Unfortunately, I also know that far too many drivers think the roads are THEIRS and anyone else using them is trespassing and should be hounded off. :

.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Preferabley make them clear up their horses poo too. Not fun having to try and miss it on the roads, or worse having it dumped everywhere on a narrow public footpath track and having to avoid it with dogs trying to eat it as they go along


As the majority of a horses diet is vegetation it is probably a lot more 'natural' than anything else on ones boots. I've seen a LOT worse on footpaths (litter, empty beer cans, *** ends) than natural horse poop!!

.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Preferabley make them clear up their horses poo too. Not fun having to try and miss it on the roads, or worse having it dumped everywhere on a narrow public footpath track and having to avoid it with dogs trying to eat it as they go along


And now would you like us to do this? Carry a shovel and a bin bag? It's illegal to ride on a footpath, it's not the law to pick up horse poo which is generally harmless to dogs, unless your dog is a collie and the horse was just wormed with ivermectin. Control your dog scavenging, obviously. You can't really expect riders to get off, pick up poo, get back on (how?!) and carry on. Let's sort out the dog poo left everywhere first, shall we, at least horse poo won't make you blind.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Thank you Moggy and I genuinely mean that. That little bit of consideration is hugely appreciated by us riders.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Thank you Moggy and I genuinely mean that. That little bit of consideration is hugely appreciated by us riders.


No problem. I adore all animals and would not wish harm on either a horse, hound or fox. I try to treat them all with the same kindess & consideration and respect their right to be on this earth alongside us humans. 

.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Horse poo is completely biodegradable and inoffensive (when I did my last-thing-at-night check when bedding down, I'd pick up any poo with my hands. It's just digested vegetable matter-and most of that is grass.)

And I may be a bit weird here, but I like the smell of horse poo. It's warm and fuzzy.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Horses aren't allowed down public footpaths unless it specifically states it has bridleway access. Most riders are responsible, I apologize for those that spoil it for the rest of us.
> 
> As for picking up poo, should we carry a bucket with us and dismount and clean it up every time the horse has a dump? Would that not cause a bit of a hazard in the road?
> 
> ...


Yes, sorry, I did mean bridleways.

As for picking up poo. I know in my last village some neighbours left out a pillow case and a laminated note for horse riders to please consider other walkers using the path. It was a narrow single track path and often covered in horse poo. I know nothing about horses or how often they 'go' but I honestly can't see a problem in discounting and clearing up using a black bag and a small spade or something. Granted, might not be an option when on the road, but when on a quiet bridleway I can't see the harm.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

I agree, its really inoffensive. We all know what mushrooms grow on and we are happy to eat those 

I don't know about you though Old Shep, I've sometimes had to nip out and do a little shopping and suddenly realized people are looking at me because I smell like horse manure!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Yes, sorry, I did mean bridleways.
> 
> As for picking up poo. I know in my last village some neighbours left out a pillow case and a laminated note for horse riders to please consider other walkers using the path. It was a narrow single track path and often covered in horse poo. I know nothing about horses or how often they 'go' but I honestly can't see a problem in discounting and clearing up using a black bag and a small spade or something. Granted, might not be an option when on the road, but when on a quiet bridleway I can't see the harm.


My last horse was 17.2. My husband made me a mounting block so I could get on. I doubt I would be able to get back on were I to get off mid ride. And remind me-why should I clear up non toxic, biodegradable poo when the law says I don't have to and it won't harm anyone? Have you seen how much the rotted down stuff is in garden centres?!


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Yes, sorry, I did mean bridleways.
> 
> As for picking up poo. I know in my last village some neighbours left out a pillow case and a laminated note for horse riders to please consider other walkers using the path. It was a narrow single track path and often covered in horse poo. I know nothing about horses or how often they 'go' but I honestly can't see a problem in discounting and clearing up using a black bag and a small spade or something. Granted, might not be an option when on the road, but when on a quiet bridleway I can't see the harm.


A bridleway is specifically for horses. Walkers can of course use them but at their own risk because bridleways become extremely muddy/turfed up, by horse hooves and of course you get horse muck too. This is why horses can't use public footpaths.

Dismounting and re-mounting can be problematic for some riders, especially if they are disabled. Horses are generally terrified of black plastic bags and carrying a small spade on a horse would be classed as dangerous because of the animals unpredictability. Bending down and picking up horse muck could also be dangerous for the dismounted rider because they would have to hold onto the reins but their hand may loosen on those reins in their endeavour to collect what you find offensive. There is nothing more dangerous than a loose running horse running back to its stable yard on its own and crossing roads to get their. An RTA is highly likely.

I'm afraid you have to put up with horse muck. Fortunately most people don't find it offensive. In fact many go out and collect it for their roses.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> A bridleway is specifically for horses. Walkers can of course use them but at their own risk because bridleways become extremely muddy/turfed up, by horse hooves and of course you get horse muck too. This is why horses can't use public footpaths.
> 
> Dismounting and re-mounting can be problematic for some riders, especially if they are disabled. Horses are generally terrified of black plastic bags and carrying a small spade on a horse would be classed as dangerous because of the animals unpredictability. Bending down and picking up horse muck could also be dangerous for the dismounted rider because they would have to hold onto the reins but their hand may loosen on those reins in their endeavour to collect what you find offensive. There is nothing more dangerous than a loose running horse running back to its stable yard on its own and crossing roads to get their. An RTA is highly likely.
> 
> I'm afraid you have to put up with horse muck. Fortunately most people don't find it offensive. In fact many go out and collect it for their roses.


It's not that I find it offensive, just a PITA sometimes, especially where I used to live. But then I don't find dog poo offensive either. The public bridleway was both a bridleway and public footpath, as you say, free for both to use and respect.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> My last horse was 17.2. My husband made me a mounting block so I could get on. I doubt I would be able to get back on were I to get off mid ride.


So what happened if the horse bucked/you slipped/etc and you were off? Would you call your husband to come and mount you again? How dangerous would it be to you to walk a large horse by the reins along a main road?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Yes, sorry, I did mean bridleways.
> 
> As for picking up poo. I know in my last village some neighbours left out a pillow case and a laminated note for horse riders to please consider other walkers using the path. It was a narrow single track path and often covered in horse poo. I know nothing about horses or how often they 'go' but I honestly can't see a problem in discounting and clearing up using a black bag and a small spade or something. Granted, might not be an option when on the road, but when on a quiet bridleway I can't see the harm.


So, if you need one hand to hold the black bag and one hand to use the shovel, which hand are you going to hold the horse with?


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

jon bda said:


> So what happened if the horse bucked/you slipped/etc and you were off? Would you call your husband to come and mount you again? How dangerous would it be to you to walk a large horse by the reins along a main road?


I know this wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say, a competent horse rider could walk such a large horse with ease, safely along a road. I have often led large and unpredictable horses along roads, especially when they are youngsters (too young to be ridden). Its one of the safer ways of getting them used to traffic.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

jon bda said:


> So what happened if the horse bucked/you slipped/etc and you were off? Would you call your husband to come and mount you again? How dangerous would it be to you to walk a large horse by the reins along a main road?


I'm not answering for cinnamon toast here, but if your horse bucked you off, you'd be lucky still to have hold of the reins. Chances are you could have a loose horse-not a nice situation.

Many people mount using a mounting block- for many different reasons- it's not at all uncommon. If you had to get off for any reason- say an awkward gate to open and close- you usually find a gate or something similar to climb on or get a leg up from someone (if you are riding with someone who has no problem dismounting and helping you.)

All this talk is making me feel wistful for riding. I've not done it for so long.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2014)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I know this wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say, a competent horse rider could walk such a large horse with ease, safely along a road.


But what about when the incompetent/uncaring car drivers come into play that we hear so much about? I dread to think what would happen if a car spooked a large hands horse whose rider had its reins wrapped around their hand or something?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sweety said:


> So, if you need one hand to hold the black bag and one hand to use the shovel, which hand are you going to hold the horse with?


I obviously did'nt think that part through......

That said, I'd hope a horse rider would have a degree of control over their horse that they could dismount and even drop the reins without the horse legging it.

I really don't know anything about horses and am not particularly fond of them so most of what I say is likely completely wrong about them. But was just speaking my opinion without thinking it through thoroughly :blushing:


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Preferabley make them clear up their horses poo too. Not fun having to try and miss it on the roads, or worse having it dumped everywhere on a narrow public footpath track and having to avoid it with dogs trying to eat it as they go along


Though I hate country snobbery when it comes to the hunting debate I would happily put a 10 mile exclusion zone around rural areas for people that hold this opinion. There are plenty of impeccably clean tarmacked pavements out there to be walked, there really is no need to take to the bridle paths if it bothers you.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

jon bda said:


> But what about when the incompetent/uncaring car drivers come into play that we hear so much about? I dread to think what would happen if a car spooked a large hands horse whose rider had its reins wrapped around their hand or something?


If you understood about handling horses you would understand that its actually quite safe to lead a horse on foot. A rider will stay on the side of the traffic keeping the rear end of the horse in. Horses respond well to someone leading at their side and are less likely to be spooked.

I train horses from the ground all the time. I've done it for years and whilst I've been bucked off, shied off and even had a horse rear up and fall backwards onto me, I have never had any problems when working or leading a horse on the ground. Its true that a frightened or very excited horse could try and get away from you out on the common but if you know what your doing, you will be able to get that horse under control, calm it down and then lead it without problem.


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Horse poo is completely biodegradable and inoffensive (when I did my last-thing-at-night check when bedding down, I'd pick up any poo with my hands. It's just digested vegetable matter-and most of that is grass.)
> 
> And I may be a bit weird here, but I like the smell of horse poo. It's warm and fuzzy.


I like the smell of horse poo too. As an ex horse owner it brings back happy memories 

As has been said horse poo is biodegradable and a by product of a natural diet. I'm sure it would be quite easy to avoid stepping in a pile of it, its usually a steaming great pile that you cant miss 

When I'm driving the car and I see a pile of horse poo in the road its a warning that there is possibly a horse up ahead so I am ready to slow down, not that I speed around country roads anyway.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

witchyone said:


> As has been said horse poo is biodegradable and a by product of a natural diet. I'm sure it would be quite easy to avoid stepping in a pile of it, its usually a steaming great pile that you cant miss


Very annoying when it's splattered all over a narrow pavement and you have to walk on a very busy road to avoid it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Yes I'm well aware of what the papers are saying. To be honest, the CA is classed as a joke with the grass routes of the countryside.
> Would never ever have joined them, they are just as bad as some of the anti organizations at stirring trouble.
> 
> If you want to see what is really going on, read what BASC or GWCT or MFHA are saying not these organizations with political agendas. The CA propaganda can sometimes be very damaging


Of course they have political agendas. They are driven by the same ideology & bloodlust as the CA - the hunt/shoot organisations are an influential lobbying group.

Take poisonous lead shot for example, BASC, GWCT along with the CA oppose the ban & their members regularly flout the law poisoning our countryside & wildlife. They lobby against the hunting ban BASC Statement on the Hunting Act | The British Association for Shooting and Conservation

Hunting and conservation is an oxymoron - killing animals provides no benefits only death...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Land has to remain in private hands though. If it's all in the hands of these "conservation" (joke) bodies there won't be anything left.
> 
> You can just tell their little coffers opening with glee when they get an unusually species present and they tell all and sundry who then descend on that site
> 
> The main object of their desire will be ok but the rest of the wildlife is forgotten.


You'll find far greater biodiversity on say RSPB reserves than you will on land managed for shooting interests. When vested interests are at stake 'diversity' tends to exclude predators & moors managed for grouse are little more than industrial wastelands.

John Muir trust promote biodiversity Rona. http://www.jmt.org/assets/john muir award/downloads/biodiversity-leaflet.pdf


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cinnamontoast said:


> I think the vast majority of hunt supporters can cope with the people who live in cities understanding that it's an old tradition. I have yet to hear that argument from a hunt supporter. If anything, one could argue that foxes are more of a PITA in the city where there are lots causing issues because we've encroached ever further on their territory and they have nowhere left to go.  There's a family of them two gardens away from me.


Many people in cities love their urban foxes. My student Son lives in Sheffield when hes away at uni. Sheffield seems to have a have a large urban fox population & my Son sees them frequently - he is always thrilled when he sees one, not everyone is intolerant of foxes. Infact, despite all the demonisiation by fox haters, they are one of our most popular mammals


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> Don't forget letting your dog run loose along the road beside you!  If you hold up traffic, tough luck to them. You just carry on and enjoy yourself on a fantastic day out


Bit like this idiot?

Atherstone Hunt on the B4114 endangering hounds, horses and YOUR road safety. 
How do they get away with it??





rona said:


> Wereas a lot of the farmers are happy to have them on their land because the hunt take fallen stock. I can't see urbanites have the same link to you


And a lot of farmers hate the hunts, some only allow them on their land for fear of reprisals.

This is great...

*Hunting from a farming perspective*

Our latest blog is by a guest writer involved in commercial farming.

I was lucky enough to be born into a family which viewed all animal life as important  not just human life. That didnt make us vegetarian, but it did mean that we liked animals to be treated properly and with respect. And in a family of animal lovers, I was always considered the ultra
 walking out of restaurants where live lobsters were kept trussed up, banning foie gras from the family table, insisting on free-range produce and while at school, joining the campaign to ban the export of live calves.

We were also involved in farming and I saw from an early age the yobbish way the hunt people behaved. When I was elected MP for a coal mining seat in 1983, hunting wasnt a big issue. But during my time in the Commons, its importance grew until, by 1997, it was almost as divisive as Europe for the Tories, with the small minority of anti-hunt MPs being hounded by the well-organised and funded pro-hunt MPs.

Youre going to lose your f***** seat at the election, a pro-hunt MP told me early in 1997, and were going to make f**** sure you dont get another!

Nice guy! But it didnt change my mind.

Foxes are vicious killers, we are told. Well, so are humans. At least foxes dont have an ethical sense of right and wrong  they kill by instinct and for survival.

Foxes kill lambs and chickens, the hunt defenders go on. Ive farmed most of my life and its rare for a fox to take a healthy lamb. They do take chickens, but properly managed free-range flocks have refuges  and I always find apparent concern for chickens strange from people who merrily eat battery eggs.

Anyway, weve driven wild animals to the margins and taken most of the land for our own use. Can we blame them for trying to survive by occasionally nabbing some of the animals we over-feed ourselves with?

Perhaps the least convincing of the hunt lobbys poses is that of friends of the environment and representatives of country folk. My local hunt is 80% wealthy city people. Very few of the local farmers join in and a good proportion of people where I farm dislike the hunt  just as many Conservatives do.

Pro-hunt lobbyists often argue that foxes damage other country sports by taking pheasants. Anyone who has witnessed modern driven shoots, with black clouds of fattened birds lumbering into the air for range-rovered bankers to blast out of the sky will know how little these country sports have to do with the environment  or sport for that matter. I always thought that sport was a matter of well-matched opponents meeting with the same equipment and rules. On that basis, perhaps we should arm the pheasants and the foxes.

But I digress. I have seen hunt and hounds and their followers rampage all over the land, through nature reserves, scattering flocks of sheep, terrifying pets and children, holding up traffic on major roads as their packs howl out of control  even crossing high speed rail lines. They have little regard for private property  in recent years I have had to take my local hunt to court for riding across growing crops when I had expressly asked them not to come onto my land.

Earlier this year, their pack charged, out of control, through a breeding flock on my land, breaking down fences, while their followers trespassed on foot and on quad bikes. Eventually I managed to get compensation from them. Friends of the countryside? I dont think so. Less well-connected yobs end up with asbos or tags.

Once upon a time, bear baiting and cock fighting was considered a traditional British pastime and defended as such. So, come to think of it, was slavery. I look forward to the day when people look back on fox hunting with the same disgust as they now look back on those pursuits, once so-cherished by the type of people who remain unspeakable.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Not a hunting supporter ... never had the inclination to be ...all a bit silly to me ...not that that means I think that foxes are cute cuddly creatures or that the hunting ban has meant all foxes have gone on to live a charmed life. A lot of farmers always relied on their guns anyway. It's as much about scaring them away as killing them off.

However, there is also less to keep the fox population in the countryside now anyway ...less hedgerows= less small creatures to hunt, less small pen or free range poultry pens to get in to (our pens are sturdier and deeper now) = less easy meat in farm yards ....in fact it doesn't surprise me that many more foxes are heading into town where the bins are free and over flowing. 

The foxes i see in the countryside ...out of my window ...are a far cry from the ones i used to see in the London suburbs ..almost a different species. I suspect though that these will be the heavy fox populations of the future (just like rats are more prolific in the towns, too) as animals go where the food is. 

I don't think most folk (town or country) are really interested in repealing the hunting bill ...let them drag ...it looks like fun actually. 

J


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I always thought horse muck could be potentially fatal to dogs, particularly to certain breeds, if the horse had recently been wormed with ivermectin? Do any of you horsey folk know if ivermectin is commonly used to worm horses? I've always tried to steer my dogs clear of horse muck just incase - but they have managed to grab a mouthful from time to time :arf: with no Ill effects - touch wood.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

We must have a family of foxes near us, I've seen one or two about the area when I've cycled home and this city girl loves to see them. I've also kept chickens in the past and absolutely agree with your guest writer nouska that people tend to assume the worst by knowing nothing - they have to been well managed and there is very little risk. IF foxes are unethical killers  the so are humans.


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## freckles (May 8, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> I always thought horse muck could be potentially fatal to dogs, particularly to certain breeds, if the horse had recently been wormed with ivermectin? Do any of you horsey folk know if ivermectin is commonly used to worm horses? I've always tried to steer my dogs clear of horse muck just incase - but they have managed to grab a mouthful from time to time :arf: with no Ill effects - touch wood.


yes Ivermectin is often used in horse wormers


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I know this wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say, a competent horse rider could walk such a large horse with ease, safely along a road. I have often led large and unpredictable horses along roads, especially when they are youngsters (too young to be ridden). Its one of the safer ways of getting them used to traffic.


Thanks for again quoting him! Having them in a field on a main road is also handy, or next to the M1 as my last yard was!

I agree and from the last bit you quoted, no-one with half a brain cell would ever wrap reins or leadrope round their hand, you're asking for lots of bother doing that.

Last time I came off was because of a huge buck, luckily in a field. The horse spooked herself, ran off a few yards and stopped to graze. Horrible mare. I had no chance of getting back on a 16.3 hunter with two dislocated wrists so I somehow led her home, fortunately not too far.

Ivermectin can be dangerous to collies/collie crosses.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Fox hunting is not an effective form of control.

My own experience of "hunting folk" was that they had very little regard for their horses or dogs - the attitude was "if it can't hunt - shoot it" 

There are many drag hunts whose hounds are taught to only hunt the scent of the drag. They cause no problems to the wildlife at large and enjoy the activity just as much. 

Fox hunts encourage the foxes to breed, so they have something to hunt - then stack the odds against the fox, using terriers, digging, blocking, etc.  

My BIL started with 4 chickens in his garden (in a village where there is a known fox population). He keeps them in a wholly insecure arrangement, and rarely puts them away before it's dark. They are very vulnerable to predation 

The fox killed 2 of them. BIL got the local "chap" in and he shot the fox :cursing:

His fault - he did not keep the chickens safe. The fox was hunting for food. Now BIL feels really guilty about murdering the fox - bit late for the fox 

Foxes hunt for survival - love them. 

Huntsmen hunt foxes for fun - hate them.

There is no valid argument to support fox hunting IMO.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

freckles said:


> yes Ivermectin is often used in horse wormers


Surely horses should be kept at home for a few days after worming and their faeces disposed of safely?


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> Surely horses should be kept at home for a few days after worming and their faeces disposed of safely?


Our horses had to be kept stabled for 24 hours following worming, to prevent any infection of the grazing. One yard actually had mandatory worming which they carried out themselves to make sure it was done and they also stuck to the 24 hour stabling rule.

After that period any poo should be clear of worms/wormer - at least that is what we were advised/believed. Therefore, any poo out in the countryside should be "safe".


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> There is no valid argument to support fox hunting IMO.


Agreed :thumbsup:



Lurcherlad said:


> Our horses had to be kept stabled for 24 hours following worming, to prevent any infection of the grazing. One yard actually had mandatory worming which they carried out themselves to make sure it was done and they also stuck to the 24 hour stabling rule.
> 
> After that period any poo should be clear of worms/wormer - at least that is what we were advised/believed. Therefore, any poo out in the countryside should be "safe".


I thought 3 days were recommended


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> Agreed :thumbsup:
> 
> I thought 3 days were recommended


Oh yeah - you may be right! What can I say - woman of a certain age now 

It was 13+ years ago - so my memory has probably let me down :001_unsure:

Whatever the recommendation was - we did it! 

(Did a quick google on the digestive transit of horses - and yes, 3 days would make more sense )


----------



## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

rona said:


> Surely horses should be kept at home for a few days after worming and their faeces disposed of safely?


Had never even crossed my mind that Ivermectin in pooh would be still a threat to collie/collie cross dogs when a horse went out and about. It SHOULD have occured to me - especially since I had a colliehound for years and he regularly ate horse pooh (or any other sort of pooh for that matter).

I shall be putting this up on the board at my yard when I go up there later. I'm sure I'm not the only person that simply hasn't thought of it! Thank you.

As to fox hunting - much as I wish it were - nature is not cute and fluffy! Dogs/wolves chasing foxes is nature. ON the other hand, people watching this for fun is sick and depraved. When was the last time you saw a bunch of blackbirds standing round in a circle watching while a magpie caught and killed a mouse? Only the human race behaves like this

Hunting legislation should have been far better thought out in the first place. Bringing unenforceable laws in just makes an ass of everyone involved. Muzzles like those worn by racing greyhounds would have protected our pet cats, rabbits, small dogs etc a lot better - even with drag hunting. Fox hounds are not little, cute and cuddly when in a pack!


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Our horses had to be kept stabled for 24 hours following worming, to prevent any infection of the grazing. One yard actually had mandatory worming which they carried out themselves to make sure it was done and they also stuck to the 24 hour stabling rule.
> 
> After that period any poo should be clear of worms/wormer - at least that is what we were advised/believed. Therefore, any poo out in the countryside should be "safe".


Responsible horse owners/yards will always monitor droppings after worming. Some people don't though. Its not only horses though, its cows and sheep too.

certain types of dog breeds are more prone to Ivermectin toxicity. Sheep dogs, shepherd types have a much higher sensitivity than most other dogs for some reason. Saying that, most dogs wont touch horse poo that has traces of ivermectin in it but of course there are exceptions. My dogs were around horses and sheep year round and would never touch horse muck after the horses/sheep were wormed but generally enjoyed the odd feast on Ivermectin free manure.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

This hunting debate has been going on for years, long before the act came into force and I don't think it will ever be resolved

The pro's are 100% pro and the antis are 100% anti, and never the twain shall meet.

I must be in a minority because I don't like foxes, they are pests and spread mange, at least round here they do and need to be controlled but not ripped apart but I have never hunted them. I have followed the drag and enjoyed it.

This argument will last forever, whatever the law says


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Dont agree with changing a law whats the point of making it in the first place?I dont agree with hunting but last night the fox that lives at the bottom of my garden nearly had his chips!he has started calling all night the noise is awful and am afraid he got a spud thrown at him.:sneaky2:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Our horses are kept stabled for one day after worming.

This is on the advice of the Vet. Any worms in the system will be passed within twenty four hours of administering the wormer.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> We must have a family of foxes near us, I've seen one or two about the area when I've cycled home and this city girl loves to see them. I've also kept chickens in the past and absolutely agree with your guest writer nouska that people tend to assume the worst by knowing nothing - they have to been well managed and there is very little risk. IF foxes are unethical killers  the so are humans.


That farmer is worthy of the label 'Guardian of our countryside'. Sadly many people who live & work in the countryside have no appreciation for nature & zero understanding of even basic ecology. They are still stuck in the dark ages with this odd belief in 'wildlife management'. Dinosaurs.



Lurcherlad said:


> Fox hunting is not an effective form of control.
> 
> My own experience of "hunting folk" was that they had very little regard for their horses or dogs - the attitude was "if it can't hunt - shoot it"
> 
> ...


Same!:thumbsup:


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Dont agree with changing a law whats the point of making it in the first place?I dont agree with hunting but last night the fox that lives at the bottom of my garden nearly had his chips!he has started calling all night the noise is awful and *am afraid he got a spud thrown at him*.:sneaky2:


You and your bl00dy spuds woman!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

.


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

My family used to keep free range chickens and we never lost one to a fox, they were kept safely shut away at night. Shame that they were savagely killed in broad daylight whilst going about their free range life by an irresponsible dog walker who didn't control his dogs 

Don't blame the foxes !!!!


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Yes I am very anti - and I know from the many debates on here you're not. So with all due respect & no offence intended I don't know you or your friend so I wouldn't know if you were honest people or not. Anecdotally speaking myself all the antis I know are antis because they feel empathy for animals - ALL animals.[/QUOTE
> 
> Potentially what infuriates is those who decry hunting yet merrily eat cheaply sourced meat.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

Laurac said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I am very anti - and I know from the many debates on here you're not. So with all due respect & no offence intended I don't know you or your friend so I wouldn't know if you were honest people or not. Anecdotally speaking myself all the antis I know are antis because they feel empathy for animals - ALL animals.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Not just fox hunting its stag and hares anyone who gets pleasure from such so called sport!have a real problem.


Believe it or not - there are occasions when stag (or in real life deer hunters) have to be used - the population explodes and causes real problems to the habitat. Harsh but unfortunately true - as many country dwellers will hold testament to.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

What used to infuriate me , back in the day when fox hunting was legal, was the bloody anti's spraying pepper spray in both the horses and hounds eyes, whilst still claiming they were "animal lovers". Genius


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

Laurac said:


> Believe it or not - there are occasions when stag (or in real life deer hunters) have to be used - the population explodes and causes real problems to the habitat. Harsh but unfortunately true - as many country dwellers will hold testament to.


So you know how skilled you need to be to be allowed to partake in the culling of deer/stag then? As opposed to ripping a fox to pieces with some dogs?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I know nothing about horses or how often they 'go' but I honestly can't see a problem in discounting and clearing up using a black bag and a small spade or something. Granted, might not be an option when on the road, but when on a quiet bridleway I can't see the harm.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I have never heard anything so ridiculous 

I have never known any horse do such an enormous dump, that it was not possible to get past or step over it. The first shower of rain will likely wash it away. It is just chewed grass and proposes no health threat.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rona said:


> Surely horses should be kept at home for a few days after worming and their faeces disposed of safely?


Wormed horses should be passing dead worms/eggs so the recontamination chance is small, but yes a risk to vollie types if ivermectin is used.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

porps said:


> so long as it doesnt impact on others
> 
> i include foxes when i say 'others'


Completely agree - so any money spent on inhumanely sourced meat products is wrong. Or am I missing the point (I normally do!)


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> I have never heard anything so ridiculous
> 
> I have never known any horse do such an enormous dump, that it was not possible to get past or step over it. The first shower of rain will likely wash it away. It is just chewed grass and proposes no health threat.


Poop scooping a horse???? Brilliant  short legs, big nags would have made it pretty much impossible for me to get back on especially with a sizeable amount of poop in a bag!!!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Poop scooping a horse???? Brilliant  short legs, big nags would have made it pretty much impossible for me to get back on especially with a sizeable amount of poop in a bag!!!


And then you've got to carry it with you for how many miles?


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Poop scooping a horse???? Brilliant  short legs, big nags would have made it pretty much impossible for me to get back on especially with a sizeable amount of poop in a bag!!!


Don't expect sympathy for being able to afford a horse - you must be well posh:001_tt2:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Don't expect sympathy for being able to afford a horse - you must be well posh:001_tt2:


Nope. My grandad bought me my last, who was pts, 15 years ago. Have since shared other peoples, and now dont have one at all. You dont need to be rich to keep a horse.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Completely agree - so any money spent on inhumanely sourced meat products is wrong. Or am I missing the point (I normally do!)


yes, you seem to be missing the part where you dont have to turn every single thread or topic into an discussion about meat. or the part which allows you to make your own thread about that very subject if thats all you want to discuss.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

porps said:


> yes, you seem to be missing the part where you dont have to turn every single thread or topic into an discussion about meat. or the part which allows you to make your own thread about that very subject if thats all you want to discuss.












I forgot it was badger sausage lady!
:lol:


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

porps said:


> yes, you seem to be missing the part where you dont have to turn every single thread or topic into an discussion about meat. or the part which allows you to make your own thread about that very subject if thats all you want to discuss.


I have no meat agenda I promise - I eat all sorts of rubbish meat. I am just trying to work out in my head how people can can get so worked up about certain animals rights but not others. I treat my own animals like kings, I would never knowingly mistreat an animal myself but I fully admit to eating certain foods where I know the animal involved has probably had a blinkin crap life. To me that makes me human - but living the life I lead, I wouldn't then start pontificating about certain animal's rights.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Laurac said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I am very anti - and I know from the many debates on here you're not. So with all due respect & no offence intended I don't know you or your friend so I wouldn't know if you were honest people or not. Anecdotally speaking myself all the antis I know are antis because they feel empathy for animals - ALL animals.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Some antis spray pepper spray in the hounds eyes. Does that make hunting any more acceptable to the majority of people?

Some hunters purposefully back their horses into people and some accidentally on purpose hit antis with their horse whips. Does that make hunting more acceptable or gain them the higher ground? Not in my eyes it doesn't.

Some antis are animal rights people and have other agendas although many are also vegetarians. Some antis just think hunting is barbaric but continue to eat meat. Some care where that meat comes from and some don't. What difference does that make to the fox?


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

MoggyBaby said:


> Laurac said:
> 
> 
> > And here we go again.... But then, it is Sunday!
> ...


No school tomorrow?


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Laurac said:


> I have no meat agenda I promise - I eat all sorts of rubbish meat. I am just trying to work out in my head how people can can get so worked up about certain animals rights but not others. I treat my own animals like kings, I would never knowingly mistreat an animal myself but I fully admit to eating certain foods where I know the animal involved has probably had a blinkin crap life. To me that makes me human - but living the life I lead, I wouldn't then start pontificating about certain animal's rights.


i think most people see a difference between killing for food and killing for fun. I also think that attitudes which essentially come down to "unless you are perfect you cant complain about things which strike you as being wrong" are not in anyway useful... Unless you believe that nothing should ever change.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Some antis spray pepper spray in the hounds eyes. Does that make hunting any more acceptable to the majority of people?
> 
> Some hunters purposefully back their horses into people and some accidentally on purpose hit antis with their horse whips. Does that make hunting more acceptable or gain them the higher ground? Not in my eyes it doesn't.
> 
> Some antis are animal rights people and have other agendas although many are also vegetarians. Some antis just think hunting is barbaric but continue to eat meat. Some care where that meat comes from and some don't. What difference does that make to the fox?


Makes naff all difference to the fox. Makes a hell of a difference to those animals purposefully injured by those claming to have animals rights at the top of their agenda. Seems the compassion to the fox does not extend to innocent horses or hounds.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

porps said:


> i think most people see a difference between killing for food and killing for fun. I also think that attitudes which essentially come down to "unless you are perfect you cant complain about things which strike you as being wrong" are not in anyway useful... Unless you believe that nothing should ever change.


Exactly and killing for fun whilst taking great pleasure from it and blooding little kids to desensitize them is plain odd.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Makes naff all difference to the fox. Makes a hell of a difference to those animals purposefully injured by those claming to have animals rights at the top of their agenda. Seems the compassion to the fox does not extend to innocent horses or hounds.


We could go round and round on that one though. Compassion to the hounds doesn't appear to extend to the fox but oh hang on it only extends to the hounds while they are useful and can function, after that who cares what happens to them


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Laurac said:


> I have no meat agenda I promise - I eat all sorts of rubbish meat. I am just trying to work out in my head how people can can get so worked up about certain animals rights but not others. I treat my own animals like kings, I would never knowingly mistreat an animal myself but I fully admit to eating certain foods where I know the animal involved has probably had a blinkin crap life. To me that makes me human - but living the life I lead, I wouldn't then start pontificating about certain animal's rights.


How odd. You are knowingly mistreating animals by buying meat from dubious sources, does jot make you human, makes you lazy at best, and a hypocrite at worst.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> We could go round and round on that one though. Compassion to the hounds doesn't appear to extend to the fox but oh hang on it only extends to the hounds while they are useful and can function, after that who cares what happens to them


Um if i was a member of pita or the like, and stood there in my logo'd t shirt, protesting against hunting, whilst spraying another innocent animal in the eyes..... surely thats hypocrisy in action? I think huntsmen would provide a humane death to their hounds once their days were over. Fox huntings history fyi was not for "fun"


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> How odd. You are knowingly mistreating animals by buying meat from dubious sources, does jot make you human, makes you lazy at best, and a hypocrite at worst.


Exactly the point I was trying to make. Not sure there are many who can truly be deemed squeaky clean!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Exactly the point I was trying to make. Not sure there are many who can truly be deemed squeaky clean!


Am sure many are, until they get a mouse/rat infestation!!


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Am sure many are, until they get a mouse/rat infestation!!


But even if they had a mouse or rat infestation they would never actually kill them would they - just put them outside (unless it is a Sunday night when anything goes:ihih


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Believe it or not - there are occasions when stag (or in real life deer hunters) have to be used - the population explodes and causes real problems to the habitat. Harsh but unfortunately true - as many country dwellers will hold testament to.





jon bda said:


> So you know how skilled you need to be to be allowed to partake in the culling of deer/stag then? As opposed to ripping a fox to pieces with some dogs?


I think Sue was refering to Stag hunting as in hunting with hounds not shooting with a rifle, which is very effective and quick when the rifleman is proficient

Most wouldn't get stalking without relevant training
The British Deer Society - Deer stalking certificate Level 1 (DSC L1)


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Laurac said:


> Don't expect sympathy for being able to afford a horse - you must be well posh:001_tt2:


I don't see anyone "looking for sympathy for being able to afford a horse".

I have a horse. Not because I'm 'well posh', but because I've always worked hard, always owned a horse and always been able to pay the bills for them.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Am sure many are, until they get a mouse/rat infestation!!


Or Ants. Ants seem to have no rights on this forum 

Spiders the same!!


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Laurac said:


> Believe it or not - there are occasions when stag (or in real life deer hunters) have to be used - the population explodes and causes real problems to the habitat. Harsh but unfortunately true - as many country dwellers will hold testament to.


And even the saintly Brian May allows this on his estate. We'd be overrun with deer otherwise. They seem to be successful breeders.



Sweety said:


> I don't see anyone "looking for sympathy for being able to afford a horse".
> 
> I have a horse. Not because I'm 'well posh', but because I've always worked hard, always owned a horse and always been able to pay the bills for them.


Same, not remotely posh (although I think LauraC was joking given the smiley!) and any money that doesn't go on bills goes on the horse.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

rona said:


> I think Sue was refering to Stag hunting as in hunting with hounds not shooting with a rifle, which is very effective and quick when the rifleman is proficient
> 
> Most wouldn't get stalking without relevant training
> The British Deer Society - Deer stalking certificate Level 1 (DSC L1)


Who is Sue, i quoted somebody called Laura?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Who is Sue, i quoted somebody called Laura?


Yeah but Laura quote Sue first so Sue started it all. Bl**dy trouble maker she is  :lol:


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Fox huntings history fyi was not for "fun"


Yes it was. Hunting with hounds was originally a royal 'sport' and the game was boar and deer. Fox only became the quarry of choice when the deer population declined in the 18th century due to the way the countryside was managed at that time. The idea that it was ever a necessary form of pest control is a fantasy dreamt up to try and raise the hunt's status above that of other 'sports' such as dog fighting.


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## shinra (Aug 9, 2013)

Bisbow said:


> This hunting debate has been going on for years, long before the act came into force and I don't think it will ever be resolved
> 
> The pro's are 100% pro and the antis are 100% anti, and never the twain shall meet.
> 
> ...


Ugh pests, i hate that word. You mean if it causes even a slight inconvience to lazy people. if there was anything that should fall undersuch a label it should be humans since they tick all the boxes for such a definition. Pity they cant be "controlled" .


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

shinra said:


> Ugh pests, i hate that word. You mean if it causes even a slight inconvience to lazy people. if there was anything that should fall undersuch a label it should be humans since they tick all the boxes for such a definition. Pity they cant be "controlled" .


Would sort all the problems if they could be culled


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

jon bda said:


> No school tomorrow?


Sadly there is. Am dreading it. At least i have a pepperami in my pack up which makes it better. It is General Studies today. We have to debate about the Hunting law. Discuss 😇


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Um if i was a member of pita or the like, and stood there in my logo'd t shirt, protesting against hunting, whilst spraying another innocent animal in the eyes..... surely thats hypocrisy in action? I think huntsmen would provide a humane death to their hounds once their days were over. Fox huntings history fyi was not for "fun"


All depends on your interpretation of humane I suppose. The shooting fraternity that owned my GSP thought shooting a dog that was absolutely terrified of gunshot was an acceptable way of killing him (why waste good money on a vet to do the job properly) when he no longer served their purpose, never mind that he was young (under a year), fit, healthy and perfectly easy to find a home for. Hypocrisy comes in many forms and I don't think anyone can seriously say they never do anything that makes them a hypocrite. Doesn't mean we can't be passionate about something that we find cruel and barbaric.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Laurac said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I am very anti - and I know from the many debates on here you're not. So with all due respect & no offence intended I don't know you or your friend so I wouldn't know if you were honest people or not. Anecdotally speaking myself all the antis I know are antis because they feel empathy for animals - ALL animals.[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> Yes it was. Hunting with hounds was originally a royal 'sport' and the game was boar and deer. Fox only became the quarry of choice when the deer population declined in the 18th century due to the way the countryside was managed at that time. The idea that it was ever a necessary form of pest control is a fantasy dreamt up to try and raise the hunt's status above that of other 'sports' such as dog fighting.


Was around before that as a form of pest control........ earliest attempt wax apparently by a grumpy farmer in 1534.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> All depends on your interpretation of humane I suppose. The shooting fraternity that owned my GSP thought shooting a dog that was absolutely terrified of gunshot was an acceptable way of killing him (why waste good money on a vet to do the job properly) when he no longer served their purpose, never mind that he was young (under a year), fit, healthy and perfectly easy to find a home for. Hypocrisy comes in many forms and I don't think anyone can seriously say they never do anything that makes them a hypocrite. Doesn't mean we can't be passionate about something that we find cruel and barbaric.


Clean shot is instant imo. = humane. Same as an injection. Instant death, does not cause suffering, spraying chemicals into their eyes does.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd just like to point out, as someone involved with the shooting fraternity, I've not shot any of my dogs. Indie has never been worked, and has cost me £100's in operations, she's a barking monstrosity when waiting on a drive (I know, I tried her once) and the only aspect she's good at, is socialising. She's currently snoring her head off on my sofa. I still have no intentions to shoot her, or any of the others.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Clean shot is instant imo. = humane. Same as an injection.


I don't know many dogs who keep perfectly still while some basteward takes a shot at them do you? particularly one who is terrified of guns but if you do find that a humane way to kill a dog we will have to accept we are miles apart on what constitutes humane


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'd just like to point out, as someone involved with the shooting fraternity, I've not shot any of my dogs. Indie has never been worked, and has cost me £100's in operations, she's a barking monstrosity when waiting on a drive (I know, I tried her once) and the only aspect she's good at, is socialising. She's currently snoring her head off on my sofa. I still have no intentions to shoot her, or any of the others.


It's illegal too so anyone would be ruddy stupid to go telling others that they'd done this.

Never ever heard anyone say they had shot a dog, the odd cat yes but never a dog.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know many dogs who keep perfectly still while some basteward takes a shot at them do you? particularly one who is terrified of guns but if you do find that a humane way to kill a dog we will have to accept we are miles apart on what constitutes humane


I suspect the person who was planning to shoot the "failed" gun dog was thinking more of saving a vet bill - the bullet would be cheaper.

The welfare of the dog and the humanity of the act were probably far from his mind.


----------



## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Laurac said:
> 
> 
> > So by your logic, if a group of people went around setting their dogs on pet cats or dogs for fun, we shouldn't object to this if we 'merrily eat cheaply sourced meat'?
> ...


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know many dogs who keep perfectly still while some basteward takes a shot at them do you? particularly one who is terrified of guns but if you do find that a humane way to kill a dog we will have to accept we are miles apart on what constitutes humane


Mmm. You wouldn't even need to get close with a rifle, and a rifle is what you would use I would think. 
Deer don't stand still for long either but rifle shooting them is probably the most humane way of control


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> It's illegal too so anyone would be ruddy stupid to go telling others that they'd done this.
> 
> Never ever heard anyone say they had shot a dog, the odd cat yes but never a dog.


It may be illegal, and you may never have heard anyone say they have - but I would hazard a bet it has happened - more than once.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I was more pointing out it's not the shooting fraternity that undertake this as a common place thing, but a few bad apples within the shooting fraternity who might contemplate, or even undertake something like this. The same as in every walk of life, where some individuals are capable of cruelty to the animals in their care.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Was around before that as a form of pest control........ earliest attempt wax apparently by a grumpy farmer in 1534.


Running after a fox with a bunch of farm dogs is a world away from the highly ritualised modern hunt with purpose bred hounds. The later is, and always has been, done for fun.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> It may be illegal, and you may never have heard anyone say they have - but I would hazard a bet it has happened - more than once.


Oh I'm sure it has, a bit like pet owners who kick their dogs to death.

Not common but it happens


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> Mmm. You wouldn't even need to get close with a rifle, and a rifle is what you would use I would think.
> Deer don't stand still for long either but rifle shooting them is probably the most humane way of control


I had a rat problem last year (they were to clever for traps) & I had to shoot them as they were stealing the food put out for my chickens. I am not experienced in this at all but had been practising to ensure I got a clean kill.

I shot & killed (instantly) 20 rats (1 was injured & ran away which I still feel bad about) so am not sure why all there is such concern that so many animals would be injured rather than killed, if I can do it then anyone can.

I accept that some will be injured & take a while to die but surely shooting goes on anyway, am sure that people don't just rely on the local hunt to control fox numbers


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

rona said:


> It's illegal too so anyone would be ruddy stupid to go telling others that they'd done this.


No it's not. It's perfectly legal for anyone to kill their own animal as long as it is done humanely.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I had a rat problem last year (they were to clever for traps) & I had to shoot them as they were stealing the food put out for my chickens. I am not experienced in this at all but had been practising to ensure I got a clean kill.
> 
> I shot & killed (instantly) 20 rats (1 was injured & ran away which I still feel bad about) so am not sure why all there is such concern that so many animals would be injured rather than killed, if I can do it then anyone can.
> 
> I accept that some will be injured & take a while to die but surely shooting goes on anyway, am sure that people don't just rely on the local hunt to control fox numbers


I have always said, if you carry a gun, you should have a dog by your side. That would cut down the injured that get away by probably two thirds.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

rona said:


> Oh I'm sure it has, a bit like pet owners who kick their dogs to death.
> 
> Not common but it happens


Or like a breeder who doesn't do the necessary health testing - there isn't really a difference. But as as always there is obvious "cruelty" that we can all attach ourselves to and less obvious but still abhorrent cruelty which isn't quite as cute and fluffy.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know many dogs who keep perfectly still while some basteward takes a shot at them do you? particularly one who is terrified of guns but if you do find that a humane way to kill a dog we will have to accept we are miles apart on what constitutes humane


Im thinking along the same lines as a dog petrified of the vet......


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> Running after a fox with a bunch of farm dogs is a world away from the highly ritualised modern hunt with purpose bred hounds. The later is, and always has been, done for fun.


No it started as the former and developed into the later.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> I have always said, if you carry a gun, you should have a dog by your side. That would cut down the injured that get away by probably two thirds.


I wouldn't send any of my dogs after a rat, and I have to admit, I've resorted to the latest bait here, but in rat boxes. I hate to do it, but they were literally gnawing at my back door and trying to get in, despite having four large dogs living in the room next to the back door. One did actually get in, so I've had to put metal around the base of the back door, and discourage them as much as possible. The problem is, too many neighbours leave food on the ground for the birds, that haven't got wings but have long hairless tails. We live rurally, near livestock, you'd think they would know not to leave a smorgasboard for rats out, unfortunately, some folk think they're doing the right thing and fail to see the negative effects of their actions. The rats here are so bold, two guinea pigs were attacked on separate occasions, both lost an eye in the attack.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

rona said:


> Oh I'm sure it has, a bit like pet owners who kick their dogs to death.
> 
> Not common but it happens


Working dogs, shall we compare with say racing greyhounds who don't make the mark and go awol, to some chav playing football with a puppy?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wouldn't send any of my dogs after a rat, and I have to admit, I've resorted to the latest bait here, but in rat boxes. I hate to do it, but they were literally gnawing at my back door and trying to get in, despite having four large dogs living in the room next to the back door. One did actually get in, so I've had to put metal around the base of the back door, and discourage them as much as possible. The problem is, too many neighbours leave food on the ground for the birds, that haven't got wings but have long hairless tails. We live rurally, near livestock, you'd think they would know not to leave a smorgasboard for rats out, unfortunately, some folk think they're doing the right thing and fail to see the negative effects of their actions. The rats here are so bold, two guinea pigs were attacked on separate occasions, both lost an eye in the attack.


Well yes you have to have the dog to match the prey. I'm sure you could find a working terrier to back you up if you ever decided to shoot your rats?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Working dogs, shall we compare with say racing greyhounds who don't make the mark and go awol, to some chav playing football with a puppy?


Same thing to me........dog suffers


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> Well yes you have to have the dog to match the prey. I'm sure you could find a working terrier to back you up if you ever decided to shoot your rats?


I maybe could, but let's just say, I saw a rat from my kitchen window cross next door's garden, so one floor up because my kitchen is above the dog room at the back, and possibly about 40 foot away, and I could tell it was a male rat, that's how big some of them are. And the guinea pigs that were attacked, the rats ate their way into the hutches. My neighbour down the road has chickens and outdoor pets, they've had to put down concrete bases for all their runs, and metal around the bottom of their outdoor hutches and runs, and even their garage and shed.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Clean shot is instant imo. = humane. Same as an injection. Instant death, does not cause suffering, spraying chemicals into their eyes does.


This doesn't sound (or look) very humane to me. http://www.powa.org.uk/id82.html

Genuine sabs are passionate about animal welfare & sab groups will not tolerate anyone who abuses horse or hounds, they are very strict about that. Like football attracts hooligans I guess you will get some idiot who isn't a genuine animal lover.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Or Ants. Ants seem to have no rights on this forum
> 
> Spiders the same!!


And to turn this on its head - its a pity 'you' don't extend this sympathy you feel for ants & spiders to the millions of wild animals persecuted to protect gamebirds & the millions of gamebirds kept in battery conditions/shot for fun.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

rona said:


> It's illegal too so anyone would be ruddy stupid to go telling others that they'd done this.
> 
> Never ever heard anyone say they had shot a dog, the odd cat yes but never a dog.


In the UK it's not illegal to shoot a dog, as long as you do not commit "unnecessary cruelty".


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> This doesn't sound (or look) very humane to me. How hunters 'love' their hounds
> 
> Genuine sabs are passionate about animal welfare & sab groups will not tolerate anyone who abuses horse or hounds, they are very strict about that. Like football attracts hooligans I guess you will get some idiot who isn't a genuine animal lover.


"Probable" not fact way to many "ifs", "buts" and "maybes" for me......
Have seen many "genuine " sabs , well ok those wearing the t shirt, in articles, and real life doing exactly what you claim they dont.

If i was going to choose my death id choose single, fatal shot by a trained marksman over lethal injevtion any day.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cinnamontoast said:


> And even the saintly Brian May allows this on his estate. We'd be overrun with deer otherwise. They seem to be successful breeders.
> 
> Same, not remotely posh (although I think LauraC was joking given the smiley!) and any money that doesn't go on bills goes on the horse.


No he doesn't - hes seeking humane alternatives. Brian May: the deer cull on my land was not hypocritical but humane - Telegraph


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> "Probable" not fact way to many "ifs", "buts" and "maybes" for me......
> Have seen many "genuine " sabs , well ok those wearing the t shirt, in articles, and real life doing exactly what you claim they dont.
> 
> If i was going to choose my death id choose single, fatal shot by a trained marksman over lethal injevtion any day.


Wearing the t shirts? lol

If animal abuse by sabs is so rife please show me some footage? I can show you plenty of hunt members abusing animals - and humans.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Moobli said:


> In the UK it's not illegal to shoot a dog, as long as you do not commit "unnecessary cruelty".


Try it and see what the police think about you holding a firearms license, unless you are a farmer with stock of course

The RSPCA would be down on you like a tonne of bricks too


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I find it rather confusing how a shot to the head can be considered 'humane', but yet I assume no one claiming as such has been witness to these 'humane' deaths? Who's to say the dog didn't struggle beforehand, or the shot didn't kill the dog straight away but rather left the dog in a slow agonizing death? There was a story just a few months ago local to me about a Staffie that had been shot in the head with a crossbow bolt and survived. So hardly humane after all  But I guess as that wasn't a gun that doesn't count as an effective and humane way of disposing of your dog.......


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> I find it rather confusing how a shot to the head can be considered 'humane', but yet I assume no one claiming as such has been witness to these 'humane' deaths? Who's to say the dog didn't struggle beforehand, or the shot didn't kill the dog straight away but rather left the dog in a slow agonizing death? There was a story just a few months ago local to me about a Staffie that had been shot in the head with a crossbow bolt and survived. So hardly humane after all  But I guess as that wasn't a gun that doesn't count as an effective and humane way of disposing of your dog.......


Depends on your definition of humane, the RSPCA *humanely* killed 8 GSD's with a bolt gun to the head. Millions of chickens are humanely killed every week for the food chain, they don't even get shot, and are only 8 weeks old.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Im thinking along the same lines as a dog petrified of the vet......


Seriously? you think someone shooting a living, feeling, trusting dog in the head because they either can't be arsed or can't spare a few quid is along the same lines as a dog frightened of the vet being given sedative whilst being cuddled by its owner before the injection is given once it has calmed down. I find that quite shocking.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Depends on your definition of humane, the RSPCA *humanely* killed 8 GSD's with a bolt gun to the head. Millions of chickens are humanely killed every week for the food chain, they don't even get shot, and are only 8 weeks old.


Wind your neck in sleeping lion - those chickens don't count! Mind you - if some toff in a red jacket attacked them ...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> I find it rather confusing how a shot to the head can be considered 'humane', but yet I assume no one claiming as such has been witness to these 'humane' deaths? Who's to say the dog didn't struggle beforehand, or the shot didn't kill the dog straight away but rather left the dog in a slow agonizing death? There was a story just a few months ago local to me about a Staffie that had been shot in the head with a crossbow bolt and survived. So hardly humane after all  But I guess as that wasn't a gun that doesn't count as an effective and humane way of disposing of your dog.......


But then you could arue any death is always going to have some amount of stress or moment of suffering .... even if a pet is taken to the vets to be pts it may not always go to plan.

The rats I shot maybe had a moment of suffering but it was minimal, I was there so noticed how long it took.

I have seen rabbits shot before & all were 'humane' deaths


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> But then you could arue any death is always going to have some amount of stress or moment of suffering .... even if a pet is taken to the vets to be pts it may not always go to plan.
> 
> The rats I shot maybe had a moment of suffering but it was minimal, I was there so noticed how long it took.
> 
> I have seen rabbits shot before & all were 'humane' deaths


I would guess shooting a rat is much more 'effective' than shooting a dog through sheer size difference alone.

I can't say I agree with it, no. But there has been many stories of dogs shot and surviving with agonizing injuries.

I don't doubt for a second there are farmers/gamekeepers or whatever who do have no emotional connection to their dogs who once are no longer needed for their job are disposed of with minimal fuss. However I wouldn't consider anything about such a callous way of ending a life humane.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I find it rather confusing how a shot to the head can be considered 'humane', but yet I assume no one claiming as such has been witness to these 'humane' deaths? Who's to say the dog didn't struggle beforehand, or the shot didn't kill the dog straight away but rather left the dog in a slow agonizing death? There was a story just a few months ago local to me about a Staffie that had been shot in the head with a crossbow bolt and survived. So hardly humane after all  But I guess as that wasn't a gun that doesn't count as an effective and humane way of disposing of your dog.......


Give me strength. How do you think a lot of animals are euthanised. For a horse a shot to the head is actually more humane than an injection. For a large dog, a lethal injection would take a while to work. I seriously hope that I wake up tomorrow in the pink fluffy cloud that a lot of the peope on here seem to inhabit - because it would be a lot nicer than reality!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously? you think someone shooting a living, feeling, trusting dog in the head because they either can't be arsed or can't spare a few quid is along the same lines as a dog frightened of the vet being given sedative whilst being cuddled by its owner before the injection is given once it has calmed down. I find that quite shocking.


I killed two of my chickens earlier this year, they literally went down hill over night & were suffering.

I didn't take them to the vets as it was have caused them unnecessary suffering (it wasn't anything to do with not being bothered or spending £££s).

Even thought both died quickly it was the most disturbing thing I have ever done & wasn't done in an unfeeling manner. After the first one I think I was in shock, it was awful despite it being 'only' a chicken.

I spoke to a memeber on here afterwards as I felt so bad but ultimately I did what I felt best for my animals, maybe some people are the same with their dogs & if they are able to end their suffering without taking them to a vet & causing more stress then why is that so bad??


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I killed two of my chickens earlier this year, they literally went down hill over night & were suffering.
> 
> I didn't take them to the vets as it was have caused them unnecessary suffering (it wasn't anything to do with not being bothered or spending £££s).
> 
> ...


Please don't feel you have to explain yourself. It really isn't necessary. Some of us would love to have the power to take control ourselves when the time comes.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

When I'm out working the dogs, and I get brought a bird that's still very much alive, I don't have anything to inject it with, or shoot it with. I do have a big stick, or just ring their necks, but then I have no problem with dealing with the animals/birds I eat. I'd rather deal with the real life than the plastic trays of stuff on a supermarket shelf from unknown history.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> I find it rather confusing how a shot to the head can be considered 'humane', but yet I assume no one claiming as such has been witness to these 'humane' deaths? Who's to say the dog didn't struggle beforehand, or the shot didn't kill the dog straight away but rather left the dog in a slow agonizing death? There was a story just a few months ago local to me about a Staffie that had been shot in the head with a crossbow bolt and survived. So hardly humane after all  But I guess as that wasn't a gun that doesn't count as an effective and humane way of disposing of your dog.......


This is how 'humanely' hounds are treated Lou. This is from the account of ex huntsman Clifford Pellow.

_ ' As summer wears on, they are introduced to the kennel activity proper and trained to obey the various commands. At this stage, they are still "un-entered", which means they have no hunting experience. This comes during the cubbing season - starting in August - when they will be 12 to 18 months old. Those that fail to make the grade get the bullet; they are taken round the back and shot'.

Dogs past their prime (generally, older than five or six years) are also killed. Altogether, says Pellow, out of a pack of 60 animals, eight to ten are disposed of every season.

How does a dog fail his or her master? There are many ways: A hound that won't draw (search for a fox) when a fox goes into covert but sits outside waiting for somebody else to do it, he's no good to anyone. Nor is the hound that won't speak (bark) - because there's no point a hound finding a fox if it won't tell you about it. Or you might have a hound that speaks at everything that moves - at a blackbird flying into a tree. Babbling it's called.

'Every-day injuries were thorns in feet and minor and major rips from barbed wire. But I've seen hounds with their intestines hanging out, their eyes hanging down, and hounds with broken toes, broken legs, exposed testicles, and with ribs that have stuck through their flesh; a collision with a vehicle or with a horse would be the likely cause. I've never had a hound die in the field, though. One had a heart attack back in the kennels but she didn't die until the Sunday morning' _


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I killed two of my chickens earlier this year, they literally went down hill over night & were suffering.
> 
> I didn't take them to the vets as it was have caused them unnecessary suffering (it wasn't anything to do with not being bothered or spending £££s).
> 
> ...


One of my dogs, my second , my soulmate dog had to suffer overnight because the vet wouldn't come out until morning to put her to sleep. If I'd had the guts I would have put her out of her misery myself


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously? you think someone shooting a living, feeling, trusting dog in the head because they either can't be arsed or can't spare a few quid is along the same lines as a dog frightened of the vet being given sedative whilst being cuddled by its owner before the injection is given once it has calmed down. I find that quite shocking.


And i find it odd you find it different. Fear is fear. A seditive willl help the physical aspects, not so mych the emotional ones. You were also talking about working hound's. The dog wouldnt know a "cuddling owner".


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I find it rather confusing how a shot to the head can be considered 'humane', but yet I assume no one claiming as such has been witness to these 'humane' deaths? Who's to say the dog didn't struggle beforehand, or the shot didn't kill the dog straight away but rather left the dog in a slow agonizing death? There was a story just a few months ago local to me about a Staffie that had been shot in the head with a crossbow bolt and survived. So hardly humane after all  But I guess as that wasn't a gun that doesn't count as an effective and humane way of disposing of your dog.......


So you believe anything other than injection is inhumane? You or your dogs eat meat?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> You were also talking about working hound's. The dog wouldnt kniw a "cuddling owner".


wow  :incazzato:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I killed two of my chickens earlier this year, they literally went down hill over night & were suffering.
> 
> I didn't take them to the vets as it was have caused them unnecessary suffering (it wasn't anything to do with not being bothered or spending £££s).
> 
> ...


Anyone who enjoys killing should not be doing it. You do what is right by yours at the time you gave to make that decision.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> This is how 'humanely' hounds are treated Lou. This is from the account of ex huntsman Clifford Pellow.
> 
> _ ' As summer wears on, they are introduced to the kennel activity proper and trained to obey the various commands. At this stage, they are still "un-entered", which means they have no hunting experience. This comes during the cubbing season - starting in August - when they will be 12 to 18 months old. Those that fail to make the grade get the bullet; they are taken round the back and shot'.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt that's the case at all, sadly  The Hounds are easily disposable.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

porps said:


> wow  :incazzato:


Wow what? Its a fact. Hounds generally dont live in huge packs in their owners living room.......


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

rona said:


> Try it and see what the police think about you holding a firearms license, unless you are a farmer with stock of course
> 
> The RSPCA would be down on you like a tonne of bricks too


No they wouldn't. Look at the case of David Smith, he shot around 10,000 racing greyhounds with a bolt gun and the only thing he could be prosecuted for is incorrect disposal.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> One of my dogs, my second , my soulmate dog had to suffer overnight because the vet wouldn't come out until morning to put her to sleep. If I'd had the guts I would have put her out of her misery myself


Not that I agree with the thought of shooting it, but you're talking about an animal suffering and yourself feeling emotional pain at seeing that animal suffer. I assume you didn't find your dog simply a burden that had outlived it's 'working life' or became to much of a waste of resources? You were not thinking callously in that moment I presume.

Someone who shoots their dog because it simply doesn't live up to working potential, or is a burden, is inhumane and callous which is kind of what we're talking about here...or what was initially mentioned anyway.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Not that I agree with the thought of shooting it, but you're talking about an animal suffering and yourself feeling emotional pain at seeing that animal suffer. I assume you didn't find your dog simply a burden that had outlived it's 'working life' or became to much of a waste of resources? You were not thinking callously in that moment I presume.
> 
> Someone who shoots their dog because it simply doesn't live up to working potential, or is a burden, is inhumane and callous which is kind of what we're talking about here...or what was initially mentioned anyway.


I cannot hang myself any more than I already have - so how has it that different to an animal that is slaughtered for food or an animal that is put to sleep by a shelter. As long as it is done humanely and quickly without the animal suffering what fundamentally is the issue? We sadly don't live in an utopian world - and if we did, I am afraid I would be saving the children first.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Not that I agree with the thought of shooting it, but you're talking about an animal suffering and yourself feeling emotional pain at seeing that animal suffer. I assume you didn't find your dog simply a burden that had outlived it's 'working life' or became to much of a waste of resources? You were not thinking callously in that moment I presume.
> 
> Someone who shoots their dog because it simply doesn't live up to working potential, or is a burden, is inhumane and callous which is kind of what we're talking about here...or what was initially mentioned anyway.


Is that all you've taken from the points raised? 

I think there is far more than that being discussed here


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

Laurac said:


> I cannot hang myself any more than I already have - so how has it that different to an animal that is slaughtered for food or an animal that is put to sleep by a shelter. As long as it is done humanely and quickly without the animal suffering what fundamentally is the issue?


I thought this thread was about fox hunting?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

jon bda said:


> I thought this thread was about fox hunting?


I only asked a bloody simple question to begin with! Now we've got effective, 'humane', ways of killing dogs stirred into the pot


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It's legal for dogs to flush quarry, and you can still work hounds to flush a fox for it to be shot, rather than chased with a pack.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> When I'm out working the dogs, and I get brought a bird that's still very much alive, I don't have anything to inject it with, or shoot it with. I do have a big stick, or just ring their necks, but then I have no problem with dealing with the animals/birds I eat.


Why are they still 'very much alive'? Don't you keep defending the practice of releasing captive bred birds to be used as living targets weeks later as humane? If I slaughtered a chicken by wounding it and hoping my dog eventually brought it to me I'd expect to be prosecuted...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I only asked a bloody simple question to begin with! Now we've got effective, 'humane', ways of killing dogs stirred into the pot


Good innit?

It's called conversation


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

rona said:


> Good innit?
> 
> It's called conversation


I tell you what Rona - once I reach a certain age I hope the dignities that are offered to dogs are offered to me.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> This is how 'humanely' hounds are treated Lou. This is from the account of ex huntsman Clifford Pellow.
> 
> _ ' As summer wears on, they are introduced to the kennel activity proper and trained to obey the various commands. At this stage, they are still "un-entered", which means they have no hunting experience. This comes during the cubbing season - starting in August - when they will be 12 to 18 months old. Those that fail to make the grade get the bullet; they are taken round the back and shot'.
> 
> ...


Its very sad that these hounds are treated in such a way but really....and not that I am condoning anything here...what to do with hounds that don't make the grade?They may all be well fit and able bodied....but who would want one? This is no different than race horses that are sent to auctions to end up having a miserable and lingering existence until they meet a dreadful death in a foreign abattoir ....or worse still cos they are so cheap some inexperienced person buys one out of sympathy and ends up trying hard to make a good life for the horse but fails miserably?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's legal for dogs to flush quarry, and you can still work hounds to flush a fox for it to be shot, rather than chased with a pack.


Yep answered about 100 pages back! 

Still, if it's legal to still shoot foxes what's the big song and dance about having the law overturned? Surely all that would effectively mean is that the hounds would be free to rip into the foxes again? Unless that's the whole point.....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I killed two of my chickens earlier this year, they literally went down hill over night & were suffering.
> 
> I didn't take them to the vets as it was have caused them unnecessary suffering (it wasn't anything to do with not being bothered or spending £££s).
> 
> ...


To be it is unthinkable to look a dog that I have loved and who has loved me in return in the eyes and then shoot it. I think its disgusting and it makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach. As you say you found shooting your chickens disturbing do you think you could shoot one of your dogs? I had a dog who hated vets, when she needed to be PTS (she had bone cancer) the vet came to our house and whilst she was concentrating on us eating cheese and chicken from our hands he gave her a quick injection which was a strong sedative he then left us alone while she gently drifted off to sleep, she hardly knew he was there. Once she was sleeping he gave the lethal injection. No stress involved.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> Yep answered about 100 pages back!
> 
> Still, if it's legal to still shoot foxes what's the big song and dance about having the law overturned? Surely all that would effectively mean is that the hounds would be free to rip into the foxes again? Unless that's the whole point.....


If your question's been answered, why are you bothered by the continuing debate?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> And i find it odd you find it different. Fear is fear. A seditive willl help the physical aspects, not so mych the emotional ones. You were also talking about working hound's. The dog wouldnt know a "cuddling owner".


No originally I was talking about my own dog - a GSP from Ireland who is gunshy and was going to be shot by his owner.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously? you think someone shooting a living, feeling, trusting dog in the head because they either can't be arsed or can't spare a few quid is along the same lines as a dog frightened of the vet being given sedative whilst being cuddled by its owner before the injection is given once it has calmed down. I find that quite shocking.


Its not just a few quid though, is it? My last dog died 18 months ago of old age....over 20 years since I had a dog PTS....just how much does it cost?


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> To be it is unthinkable to look a dog that I have loved and who has loved me in return in the eyes and then shoot it. I think its disgusting and it makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach. As you say you found shooting your chickens disturbing do you think you could shoot one of your dogs? I had a dog who hated vets, when she needed to be PTS (she had bone cancer) the vet came to our house and whilst she was concentrating on us eating cheese and chicken from our hands he gave her a quick injection which was a strong sedative he then left us alone while she gently drifted off to sleep, she hardly knew he was there. Once she was sleeping he gave the lethal injection. No stress involved.


You wouldn't shoot a chicken, just 'stretch' its neck...


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> To be it is unthinkable to look a dog that I have loved and who has loved me in return in the eyes and then shoot it. I think its disgusting and it makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach. As you say you found shooting your chickens disturbing do you think you could shoot one of your dogs? I had a dog who hated vets, when she needed to be PTS (she had bone cancer) the vet came to our house and whilst she was concentrating on us eating cheese and chicken from our hands he gave her a quick injection which was a strong sedative he then left us alone while she gently drifted off to sleep, she hardly knew he was there. Once she was sleeping he gave the lethal injection. No stress involved.


I actually think it is unthinkable that you think you can tell an owner that they cannot do the kindest thing for their own pet. If I had the capability to save any of my pets from the uneccessary journey to the vets then I would take it. I am the person who loved them unconditionally and took their love unconditionally- if there was any way they could end their days at home then I would grab it and if I was the last face they saw then that would be a positive.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lilythepink said:


> Its very sad that these hounds are treated in such a way but really....and not that I am condoning anything here...what to do with hounds that don't make the grade?They may all be well fit and able bodied....but who would want one? This is no different than race horses that are sent to auctions to end up having a miserable and lingering existence until they meet a dreadful death in a foreign abattoir ....or worse still cos they are so cheap some inexperienced person buys one out of sympathy and ends up trying hard to make a good life for the horse but fails miserably?


Just my opinion, but its another good reason to phase out hunting with hounds. Hunts wont allow hounds to be rehabilitated & given a chance of a home & some of these dogs are only puppies. I personally don't agree disposing of animals in the name of 'sport'.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> Its not just a few quid though, is it? My last dog died 18 months ago of old age....over 20 years since I had a dog PTS....just how much does it cost?


??? I don't really understand your point. Are you saying if they can't afford more than a few quid its OK to shoot them?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> To be it is unthinkable to look a dog that I have loved and who has loved me in return in the eyes and then shoot it. I think its disgusting and it makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach. As you say you found shooting your chickens disturbing do you think you could shoot one of your dogs? I had a dog who hated vets, when she needed to be PTS (she had bone cancer) the vet came to our house and whilst she was concentrating on us eating cheese and chicken from our hands he gave her a quick injection which was a strong sedative he then left us alone while she gently drifted off to sleep, she hardly knew he was there. Once she was sleeping he gave the lethal injection. No stress involved.


I didn't shoot them ... I picked her up, she cuddled up in to me, I carried her out of the coop to the front of the house, I laid her down, she was still looking at me & I chopped her head off (wasn;t sure how to pop her neck & I HAD to get it right). It was awful & disturbing .. but ... the best option for her. Why would I put her through another few hours of misery & taken her outside the home to a place she had never been or have an unknown person try to handle her (to kill her) just because it was a horrible experience for me? Why would that have been a better option?

If I could do the similar for my dogs with no strangers involved, just me & them (although obviously not the same method) then I would ... but I don't think I could ... for others that can though I admire them not feel repulsed by their actions ...


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Just my opinion, but its another good reason to phase out hunting with hounds. Hunts wont allow hounds to be rehabilitated & given a chance of a home & some of these dogs are only puppies. I personally don't agree disposing of animals in the name of 'sport'.


I am against fox hunting......but there is nothing more breath taking than seeing the hunt out with hounds on a frosty bright morning.

I have only ever been out drag hunting....perfectly acceptable and never witnessed either the torture or chasing of any animals....but even in drag hunting, it does/did go on...I was just never out when it happened.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I didn't shoot them ... I picked her up, she cuddled up in to me, I carried her out of the coop to the front of the house, I laid her down, she was still looking at me & I chopped her head off (wasn;t sure how to pop her neck & I HAD to get it right). It was awful & disturbing .. but ... the best option for her. Why would I put her through another few hours of misery & taken her outside the home to a place she had never been or have an unknown person try to handle her (to kill her) just because it was a horrible experience for me? Why would that have been a better option?
> 
> If I could do the similar for my dogs with no strangers involved, just me & them (although obviously not the same method) then I would ... but I don't think I could ... for others that can though I admire them not feel repulsed by their actions ...


Seriously cleo - please don't continue to justify yourself.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

Laurac said:


> if I was the last face they saw then that would be a positive.


I dunno. Given your form it would probably be some (little) big word you thought was clever that actually came across as a bit condesending that would be the last thing they would hear...sad really...


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

jon bda said:


> I dunno. Given your form it would probably be some (little) big word you thought was clever that actually came across as a bit condesending that would be the last thing they would hear...sad really...


I think you have just made yourself look really silly.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Laurac said:


> I actually think it is unthinkable that you think you can tell an owner that they cannot do the kindest thing for their own pet. If I had the capability to save any of my pets from the uneccessary journey to the vets then I would take it. I am the person who loved them unconditionally and took their love unconditionally- if there was any way they could end their days at home then I would grab it and if I was the last face they saw then that would be a positive.


Firstly I did not tell an owner that they can or cannot do anything. I said I find it disgusting. Me finding something disgusting is not the same as me telling you that you cannot do it  if you want to do that to one of your pets then go right ahead. As I've already explained as I've had to do it myself its perfectly possible to have a vet come to your house and put your pet to sleep humanely - my rottie hardly knew he was in the house as we had her focused on us and eating while he injected a simple sedative and he kept away from her until that had sent her off to sleep before giving the lethal dose.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> ??? I don't really understand your point. Are you saying if they can't afford more than a few quid its OK to shoot them?


No. Its not just a few quid though is it?

How much does it cost? and if 10 hounds or so a season are PTS by whatever method and we are looking at a couple of hundred pounds a time here....then that's partly why they are shot and not taken to the vet.

The beef on your plate this Christmas if it was lucky, was shot with a captive bolt.

And hounds with the hunt are eating some horse that had a humane death by a captive bolt or bullet...whats the difference?


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

jon bda said:


> I dunno. Given your form it would probably be some (little) big word you thought was clever that actually came across as a bit condesending that would be the last thing they would hear...sad really...


Massively below the belt.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

My granddad used to kill his own chickens, geese, and pet rabbits. None were ever what my mum considered truly 'humane'. She still recalls the day my granddad took her pet rabbit and broke her neck to avoid taking her to the vet. My granddad, and I'm sure some other old fashioned folk, would call all this emotional distress over killing your own animals a load of 'Namby Pamby idiots'. But this is from a man who also chucked the family dog out of the front room window when she misbehaved one time and she was forever cowering and shying away from him. Times have changed and so has attitudes towards animals thankfully. Although he did at least have the vet come out to have her PTS when her time was up.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Laurac said:


> Seriously cleo - please don't continue to justify yourself.


It's just one of those things that some people seem to think is done lightly, maybe some people do but others don't & never will.

I have several more chickens & will have to do it again but that's part of my responsibility in looking after them. If some people find it disgusting then that's up to them, personally I find it disgusting to let an animal suffer because the idea of killing them is too 'painful' for me.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> My granddad used to kill his own chickens, geese, and pet rabbits. None were ever what my mum considered truly 'humane'. She still recalls the day my granddad took her pet rabbit and broke her neck to avoid taking her to the vet. My granddad, and I'm sure some other old fashioned folk, would call all this emotional distress over killing your own animals a load of 'Namby Pamby idiots'. But this is from a man who also chucked the family dog out of the front room window when she misbehaved one time and she was forever cowering and shying away from him. Times have changed and so has attitudes towards animals thankfully. Although he did at least have the vet come out to have her PTS when her time was up.


So you think the majority of animals culled in this country die without distress?


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

Laurac said:


> I think you have just made yourself look really silly.


And this matters why? You assume i actually care about what you or anyone else thinks? Or can i rely on the power of this secret PF group that seems to exist only in your head to make things right?
ut:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I didn't shoot them ... I picked her up, she cuddled up in to me, I carried her out of the coop to the front of the house, I laid her down, she was still looking at me & I chopped her head off (wasn;t sure how to pop her neck & I HAD to get it right). It was awful & disturbing .. but ... the best option for her. Why would I put her through another few hours of misery & taken her outside the home to a place she had never been or have an unknown person try to handle her (to kill her) just because it was a horrible experience for me? Why would that have been a better option?
> 
> If I could do the similar for my dogs with no strangers involved, just me & them (although obviously not the same method) then I would ... but I don't think I could ... for others that can though I admire them not feel repulsed by their actions ...


Apologies - you were talking about shooting rats then having killed your chickens so I got confused and thought you meant you had shot the chickens.

I'm sure there are some experienced people out there who might be able to pull off killing a dog in a humane way but the thought still disgusts me and I'm perfectly entitled to say it disgusts me. Just think if the general public decided it was an acceptable way to save money - just hit the dog over the head with a brick or something equally gross. I find it shocking on a pet forum that anyone would advocate having a dog PTS in any way other than by a qualified vet. I'll watch out for all the replies advocating DIY euthanasia in future when newbies come on asking for advice about facing up to ending the life of their beloved pets.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> My granddad used to kill his own chickens, geese, and pet rabbits. None were ever what my mum considered truly 'humane'. She still recalls the day my granddad took her pet rabbit and* broke her neck* to avoid taking her to the vet. My granddad, and I'm sure some other old fashioned folk, would call all this emotional distress over killing your own animals a load of 'Namby Pamby idiots'. But this is from a man who also chucked the family dog out of the front room window when she misbehaved one time and she was forever cowering and shying away from him. Times have changed and so has attitudes towards animals thankfully. Although he did at least have the vet come out to have her PTS when her time was up.


Probably the quickest way for a rabbit to die and one I've used many a time on myxy rabbits


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Apologies - you were talking about shooting rats then having killed your chickens so I got confused and thought you meant you had shot the chickens.
> 
> I'm sure there are some experienced people out there who might be able to pull off killing a dog in a humane way but the thought still disgusts me and I'm perfectly entitled to say it disgusts me. Just think if the general public decided it was an acceptable way to save money - just hit the dog over the head with a brick or something equally gross. I find it shocking on a pet forum that anyone would advocate having a dog PTS in any way other than by a qualified vet. I'll watch out for all the replies advocating DIY euthanasia in future when newbies come on asking for advice about facing up to ending the life of their beloved pets.


Unfortunately some of the general public do find it a perfectly acceptable way of disposing of your dog....until it fails that is.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> Probably the quickest way for a rabbit to die and one I've used many a time on myxy rabbits


And me, I've stopped after people have driven past stricken rabbits to put them out of their misery. And then seen the havoc created by the Monday morning rush when people splatter every living creature across the roads on their rush in to work.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> Unfortunately some of the general public do find it a perfectly acceptable way of disposing of your dog....until it fails that is.


And how common place is this?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Apologies - you were talking about shooting rats then having killed your chickens so I got confused and thought you meant you had shot the chickens.
> 
> I'm sure there are some experienced people out there who might be able to pull off killing a dog in a humane way but the thought still disgusts me and I'm perfectly entitled to say it disgusts me. Just think if the general public decided it was an acceptable way to save money - just hit the dog over the head with a brick or something equally gross. I find it shocking on a pet forum that anyone would advocate having a dog PTS in any way other than by a qualified vet. I'll watch out for all the replies advocating DIY euthanasia in future when newbies come on asking for advice about facing up to ending the life of their beloved pets.


Personally I would always opt for a vet but if any of my animals were suffering to the extent that keeping them alive for even minutes more would be traumatic I would like to think I could end it for them .... am not advocting DIY euthanisia in all instances but in some cases I think it is acceptable


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> It's just one of those things that some people seem to think is done lightly, maybe some people do but others don't & never will.
> 
> I have several more chickens & will have to do it again but that's part of my responsibility in looking after them. If some people find it disgusting then that's up to them, personally I find it disgusting to let an animal suffer because the idea of killing them is too 'painful' for me.


I thnk an awful lot of people on here are all talk and no balls


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> No. Its not just a few quid though is it?
> 
> How much does it cost? and if 10 hounds or so a season are PTS by whatever method and we are looking at a couple of hundred pounds a time here....then that's partly why they are shot and not taken to the vet.
> 
> ...


I don't remember what it cost - it was 3 years ago - more than £100 as the vet came to the house but less than £200. I'm sure the hunt can afford to pay for vets fees for their hounds, just like the rest of us its part of the responsibility of keeping dogs. They could always charge their members a few quid extra to cover the cost.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2014)

rona said:


> Probably the quickest way for a rabbit to die and one I've used many a time on myxy rabbits


Horrible disease mixy


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Horrible disease mixy


Certainly is, but with a retrieving dog I've been given rather a lot to deal with 

Makes me feel sick every single time but I won't leave them to suffer


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> To be it is unthinkable to look a dog that I have loved and who has loved me in return in the eyes and then shoot it. I think its disgusting and it makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach. .





Laurac said:


> I actually think it is unthinkable that you think you can tell an owner that they cannot do the kindest thing for their own pet. If I had the capability to save any of my pets from the uneccessary journey to the vets then I would take it. I am the person who loved them unconditionally and took their love unconditionally- if there was any way they could end their days at home then I would grab it and if I was the last face they saw then that would be a positive.


Somehow i kinda agree with you both even though you are opposed... I couldnt do it to one of mine- it's hard enough giving the vet the go ahead to PTS a pet when the time comes... never mind doing it myself... But at the same time, i'd much rather they die in relative happiness at home without all the additional stress that comes with a vet visit. Maybe if i had my own lethal injection i would be able to carry it out myself but snapping a neck, or shooting? Wouldnt trust myself, especially in what would obviously be an emotional time.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

porps said:


> Somehow i kinda agree with you both even though you are opposed... I couldnt do it to one of mine- it's hard enough giving the vet the go ahead to PTS a pet when the time comes... never mind doing it myself... But at the same time, i'd much rather they die in relative happiness at home without all the additional stress that comes with a vet visit. Maybe if i had my own lethal injection i would be able to carry it out myself but snapping a neck, or shooting? Wouldnt trust myself, especially in what would obviously be an emotional time.


Thats why I have the vet come to the house, so my dogs get to pass over in their own environment being fed their favourite food. It doesn't have to be a stressful visit to a vets surgery.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

My vet charged me £60 to PTS my old dog at home. She brought a vet nurse with her and I live at least 10miles from the surgery.
(Someone said it'd cost hundreds to put a foxhound down)

I thought by reading this I would be clearer in my mind where my feeling lay- but I've found myself "liking" almost everyone's posts!


For deer, I am quite convinced that shooting is entirely acceptable. AFAIK even if the person doing the shooting is a bit rubbish, the ghillie with him would finnish the job. However, I think proper shooting, by a proper marksman is much preferable and much more humane. I do thing deer numbers have to be controlled and shooting is by far the best way to do this.

Foxes, though, are perhaps different as there is no real need to control their numbers. A local hill farmer here will not allow the hunt on his land as he believes they cause damage to fences nd riverbanks and he believes foxes only take unhealthy sheep and a few lambs. He maintains that poor husbandry is the cause of most lost lambs and that foxes are wrongly blamed.

BUT, I knew another hill farmer who's farm wasn't in a hunt area. How he eradicated foxes was just too horrible to relay here. A hunt would have been more humane.


Agh hh! I still don't know what I think


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't remember what it cost - it was 3 years ago - more than £100 as the vet came to the house but less than £200. I'm sure the hunt can afford to pay for vets fees for their hounds,* just like the rest of us its part of the responsibility of keeping dogs. They could always charge their members a few quid extra to cover the cost.*


Agreed... Imagine the hoohaa if Mr. Ordinary Joe came on to the forum and said he couldn't afford the vet fee to put his pack of dogs to sleep, so he shot them! that would cause WW3 to break loose!

Money or lack of it, is no justification when you equate the potential amount of dogs that would need to be pts after a hunt! I find that abhorrent for a pet forum!

Now I am reminded why I don't venture much into general chat now


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

People who aren't having trouble with their resident foxes would be silly to eradicate them. To do so could open up the territory to a rogue fox.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I didn't shoot them ... I picked her up, she cuddled up in to me, I carried her out of the coop to the front of the house, I laid her down, she was still looking at me & I chopped her head off (wasn;t sure how to pop her neck & I HAD to get it right). It was awful & disturbing .. but ... the best option for her. Why would I put her through another few hours of misery & taken her outside the home to a place she had never been or have an unknown person try to handle her (to kill her) just because it was a horrible experience for me? Why would that have been a better option?


I'm sorry your bird became so ill and you obviously felt it was your only option at the time. However as a chicken keeper I would urge you to look more closely at techniques for properly killing poultry if you don't wish to use a vet. Decapitation of poultry is not recommended on welfare grounds and without prior stunning is not a permitted method of killing within the EU.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Has anyone actually seen someone point a gun at a dog? They actually 'know' and cower, and are terrified!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Has anyone actually seen someone point a gun at a dog? They actually 'know' and cower, and are terrified!


What?  :confused

All my dog have loved the gun


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> I'm sorry your bird became so ill and you obviously felt it was your only option at the time. However as a chicken keeper I would urge you to look more closely at techniques for properly killing poultry if you don't wish to use a vet. Decapitation of poultry is not recommended on welfare grounds and without prior stunning is not a permitted method of killing within the EU.


Jesus blinkin Christ - I wish cleo had never posted. All the horrendous [email protected] that is going on in the world and you want to make a caring owner feel guilty about how they end a chicken's suffering. Please give us the secret code to utopia!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Laurac said:


> Jesus blinkin Christ - I wish cleo had never posted. All the horrendous [email protected] that is going on in the world and you want to make a caring owner feel guilty about how they end a chicken's suffering. Please give us the secret code to utopia!


I thought you could get a device which basically crushed their necks? Why would that be any different to decapitation?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Has anyone actually seen someone point a gun at a dog? They actually 'know' and cower, and are terrified!


No, I have heard remarks passed that if a dog can't work, then it's only worth as much as a cartridge, but this has been all talk, the dogs concerned are family pets, not just working dogs. At the worst they would be sold on, at possible risk of family arguments.

My dogs aren't perfect, they work nicely, sometimes they break out to chase something, retrieve something, but hey, they're not robots, none of the dogs on the shoots I go on are. And the same old jokes are doled out, chocolate Labradors can't work, etc, etc, hence me not taking the comments about dogs being worth a cartridge as really true. I personally think any working dog being shot rare, because they are much more valuable to be sold on as at least part trained, it's a myth.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Poultry dispatcher.

Wall Mounted poultry chicken Dispatcher


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I thought you could get a device which basically crushed their necks? Why would that be any different to decapitation?


I could be wrong, (I remember my Dad saying something about this when I was a kid and we used to keep turkeys for the Christmas market) but with decapitation the poultry stays alive for several seconds after wards? whereas by wringing the neck it's lights out instantly...


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Jesus blinkin Christ - I wish cleo had never posted. All the horrendous [email protected] that is going on in the world and you want to make a caring owner feel guilty about how they end a chicken's suffering. Please give us the secret code to utopia!


As an animal keeper she has a duty to know and understand the welfare guidelines and legislation - DEFRA, the humane slaughter association etc have clear, easy to read information. Surely a caring owner would like to know these things for future reference?



Old Shep said:


> I thought you could get a device which basically crushed their necks? Why would that be any different to decapitation?


It wouldn't. Crushing the neck is not quick and is not considered an acceptable method of killing on welfare grounds.



MissShelley said:


> I could be wrong, (I remember my Dad saying something about this when I was a kid and we used to keep turkeys for the Christmas market) but with decapitation the poultry stays alive for several seconds after wards?


Poultry killed by decapitation can remain conscious for up to two minutes afterwards which is why it is not considered acceptable.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

Laurac said:


> Jesus blinkin Christ - I wish cleo had never posted. All the horrendous [email protected] that is going on in the world and you want to make a caring owner feel guilty about how they end a chicken's suffering. Please give us the secret code to utopia!


You really are putting some crap up on here tonight, are you on medication?


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

jon bda said:


> You really are putting some crap up on here tonight, are you on medication?


Sillier by the minute. Or are you a firm advocate of chickens rights?


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

Laurac said:


> Sillier by the minute. Or are you a firm advocate of chickens rights?


I'd like to hear what you think is right in whatever post you deem worthy to show yourself in, rather than just quoting some people and insulting others...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Could we keep this civil, please. It is getting way off topic with personal arguments. Thanks. Happy new year:rolleyes5:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, I have heard remarks passed that if a dog can't work, then it's only worth as much as a cartridge, but this has been all talk, the dogs concerned are family pets, not just working dogs. At the worst they would be sold on, at possible risk of family arguments.
> 
> My dogs aren't perfect, they work nicely, sometimes they break out to chase something, retrieve something, but hey, they're not robots, none of the dogs on the shoots I go on are. And the same old jokes are doled out, chocolate Labradors can't work, etc, etc, hence me not taking the comments about dogs being worth a cartridge as really true. I personally think any working dog being shot rare, because they are much more valuable to be sold on as at least part trained, it's a myth.


You're such a fibber SL lol I distinctly remember you posting very 'matter of factly' about the shooting of unwanted gundogs. I know full well its common practice, my own dog was a gunshy gundog for the bullet.

ETA. here, took me all of a few seconds to find.

_ That's because *some* working dogs that aren't handed in to rescue, they are shot, that would have been the fate of my first rescue girl, Rhuna, who was an ex gundog whose owner was terminally ill. He'd also let most of his dogs run into ill health so a farmer shot them for him. And in actual fact, I've seen loads of rescues rehoming working dogs _

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...ry-true-5.html?highlight=shoot#post1063764412


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Sillier by the minute. Or are you a firm advocate of chickens rights?


I think chicken should have rights just as much as any other living creature, and thank goodness in this country, we are working towards that now


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I think chicken should have rights just as much as any other living creature, and thank goodness in this country, we are working towards that now


Welfare for chickens & farm animals is actually going backwards in this country Rona. And if Cameron pushes through with the TTIP agreement they stand to get a whole lot worse.

Farmageddon: The True CostÂ ofÂ Cheap Meat by Philip Lymbery â review | Books | The Guardian


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

lennythecloud said:


> I'm sorry your bird became so ill and you obviously felt it was your only option at the time. However as a chicken keeper I would urge you to look more closely at techniques for properly killing poultry if you don't wish to use a vet. Decapitation of poultry is not recommended on welfare grounds and without prior stunning is not a permitted method of killing within the EU.


As I said, it needed to be done & done properly. I wasn't sure exactly how to carry out a cervical dislocation so the method I chose was (IMO) the most humane.

Considering some of the welfare standards that the EU find acceptable (the bird in question was orginally an ex-batt in a terrible state) I think she had a better life (& death) than she would of in her original Eu regualted environment.

I do know & understand the regulations, from from what I have read this method is permitted in emergency situations which this was.

Personally I don't care if people think I was wrong, I know I wasn't & would do the same again


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Has anyone actually seen someone point a gun at a dog? They actually 'know' and cower, and are terrified!


Really? My dogs are around guns on a shoot, and far from cower, they look to see where the gun is being pointed, and whether there's the chance of a retrieve. We are literally a few feet away from the guns at points, and when not shooting, the guns are broken and carried over the arm, my dogs love nothing better than investigating them as the smell of guns is to them, the possibility of working, which they LOVE.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

There certainly wasn't much of this in place when I worked in farming
https://www.gov.uk/government/topics/wildlife-and-animal-welfare

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/protecting-animal-welfare

Wasn't really much of this either 
https://www.gov.uk/environmental-management/wildlife-habitat-conservation


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Laurac said:


> Jesus blinkin Christ - I wish cleo had never posted. All the horrendous [email protected] that is going on in the world and you want to make a caring owner feel guilty about how they end a chicken's suffering. Please give us the secret code to utopia!


Please be aware that many of us find blasphemy offensive.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

rona said:


> Try it and see what the police think about you holding a firearms license, unless you are a farmer with stock of course
> 
> The RSPCA would be down on you like a tonne of bricks too


Well I am a shepherd's wife and we do have 2500 sheep, so I guess I could qualify - but I am not in the business of shooting dogs. I think you will find though that there is no Law against shooting your own dog (sadly, working dogs of all spheres are still disposed of in this way by some individuals) - dependent on holding a firearms certificate issued by the police ... obviously!

ETA: The RSPCA have been known to use guns themselves ...

RSPCA puts down 10 German Shepherds with bolt gun - Telegraph

Also captive-bolt stunners were de-classified from their 'Section 1' firearms status in the UK in February 1998. This means that a firearms permit is no longer required for purchase, possession or use of a bolt gun.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> But then you could arue any death is always going to have some amount of stress or moment of suffering .... even if a pet is taken to the vets to be pts it may not always go to plan.
> 
> The rats I shot maybe had a moment of suffering but it was minimal, I was there so noticed how long it took.
> 
> I have seen rabbits shot before & all were 'humane' deaths


Let's face it - death is rarely a "pleasant" experience - for animals or people!


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> I would guess shooting a rat is much more 'effective' than shooting a dog through sheer size difference alone.
> 
> I can't say I agree with it, no. But there has been many stories of dogs shot and surviving with agonizing injuries.
> 
> I don't doubt for a second there are farmers/gamekeepers or whatever who do have no emotional connection to their dogs who once are no longer needed for their job are disposed of with minimal fuss. However I wouldn't consider anything about such a callous way of ending a life humane.


I don't agree with shooting dogs either but if done correctly, I imagine it is quick, painless and - yes - humane (due to it being quick and painless). As dog lovers we find it callous and brutal but that does not automatically mean it is not humane.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Really? My dogs are around guns on a shoot, and far from cower, they look to see where the gun is being pointed, and whether there's the chance of a retrieve. We are literally a few feet away from the guns at points, and when not shooting, the guns are broken and carried over the arm, my dogs love nothing better than investigating them as the smell of guns is to them, the possibility of working, which they LOVE.


My dogs' mum and dad got really excited when the guns were brought out. They associated them with going out to work- which, obviously, they loved.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> As I said, it needed to be done & done properly. I wasn't sure exactly how to carry out a cervical dislocation so the method I chose was (IMO) the most humane.
> 
> Considering some of the welfare standards that the EU find acceptable (the bird in question was orginally an ex-batt in a terrible state) I think she had a better life (& death) than she would of in her original Eu regualted environment.
> 
> ...


If you wanted to know how to do this then I am sure some worker on a chicken farm will show you how to do it as quickly as is possible.

well done for having the courage to end your hens suffering in the first place though.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Moobli said:


> I don't agree with shooting dogs either but if done correctly, I imagine it is quick, painless and - yes - humane (due to it being quick and painless). As dog lovers we find it callous and brutal but that does not automatically mean it is not humane.


But it's not always quick and painless as some dogs survive and are left in agonizing pain.

Just imagine if everyone started to think of it as an 'easy' way out and started using the same methods. There would be far more horrific injuries sustained to animals.

I accept that some farmers/gamekeepers or whatever might find it an acceptable way of ending their dogs life. But the average pet owner I imagine wouldn't find it acceptable and rightly so IMO.

To look in to my dog's eyes, give them a gentle pat on the head and then blast their brains out would be the ugliest of deaths IMO for a dog that has gave me so much. The last thing I can do is to let them go with some degree of dignity and as peacefully as possible.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> *But it's not always quick and painless as some dogs survive and are left in agonizing pain.*
> 
> Just imagine if everyone started to think of it as an 'easy' way out and started using the same methods. There would be far more horrific injuries sustained to animals.
> 
> ...


How do you know this?

Have you seen dogs shot by a marksman?


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> But it's not always quick and painless as some dogs survive and are left in agonizing pain.
> 
> Just imagine if everyone started to think of it as an 'easy' way out and started using the same methods. There would be far more horrific injuries sustained to animals.
> 
> ...


If you re-read my post, I said I do not agree with shooting dogs. It is not something I would ever want to do. My point was merely that our human emotions can get in the way of whether something is in fact humane or not. A humane death is quick and as painless and stress-free as possible.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

rona said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> Have you seen dogs shot by a marksman?


It doesn't even need to be by a marksman. I have never seen it for myself but have heard it it happening, and it was at point blank range.

There are plenty of horror stories regarding so-called humane lethal injection.

It isn't black and white.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> But it's not always quick and painless as some dogs survive and are left in agonizing pain.
> 
> Just imagine if everyone started to think of it as an 'easy' way out and started using the same methods. There would be far more horrific injuries sustained to animals.
> 
> ...


But death isn't always like that unfortunately. Even if we try our hardest to ensure the animal doesn't suffer it doesn't always work like that.

All my cats have been pts at home (when the time came) & most were peaceful. One was far from that, she hated strangers, hated the vet who came & struggled despite trying to pacify her. It wasn't the nice, peaceful death I had imagined at all .... if I had been able to have done it myself it would have been much easier for all of us


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> Have you seen dogs shot by a marksman?


Have you?

I did post some pages back at how many of those claiming it was a quick, simple, procedure, had actually witnessed a shooting.

But I have been able to find the horror stories online of dogs surviving and sustaining horrific injuries. Didn't take me long at all.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> But I have been able to find the horror stories online of dogs surviving and sustaining horrific injuries. Didn't take me long at all.


I can probably find anything on the internet if I look for it. That's one of the problems with it  How difficult is it to find horror stories of a dog being PTS by a vet? You can probably find several on this forum on its own.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm going to step away from this thread anyway. My original question was answered and I honestly can't comprehend anyone who finds shooting a dog an acceptable form of death...and therefore we'll just keep going round in circles. Feel free to keep derailing the thread though until the good ole' padlock comes out


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

lennythecloud said:


> I'm sorry your bird became so ill and you obviously felt it was your only option at the time. However as a chicken keeper I would urge you to look more closely at techniques for properly killing poultry if you don't wish to use a vet. Decapitation of poultry is not recommended on welfare grounds and *without prior stunning is not a permitted method of killing within the EU.*


So how do Kosher and Halal butchers get away with it?

Chicken may be slaughtered for Kosher and Halal without stunning, this makes up 4% of the chickens slaughtered in the UK.

If chickens are killed under the derogation for religious slaughter then they may be killed with a cut to the throat without any prior stunning.

FAQs - Halal chicken slaughter | Compassion in World Farming


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> But death isn't always like that unfortunately. Even if we try our hardest to ensure the animal doesn't suffer it doesn't always work like that.
> 
> All my cats have been pts at home (when the time came) & most were peaceful. One was far from that, she hated strangers, hated the vet who came & struggled despite trying to pacify her. It wasn't the nice, peaceful death I had imagined at all .... *if I had been able to have done it myself it would have been much easier for all of us*


Would it though? Having run a livery yard I have been responsible for standing with horses being put to sleep. Some of them were shot, others were injected. Personally I would have my horses put to sleep by injection because its less traumatic for me. Death by gun/bolt is always witnessed as a violent end rather than a peaceful one, even though, I know in my heart of hearts that it was quick and clean for the horse.

Being witness to any pet dying is something that lives on in our memory forever. Fortunately we have happy memories of the animals lives. The horses I stood with whilst being shot have no other memory for me than that awful moment when I stood with that beautiful beast about to have its brains blown out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I honestly can't comprehend anyone who finds shooting a dog an acceptable form of death...


It's not something I would personally consider doing, even if I had a gun. However I am prepared to admit I don't know how effective it would be so will keep an open mind.



ThelifeofPi said:


> So how do Kosher and Halal butchers get away with it?


Would guess it's part of the "freedom of religion" right.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> As I said, it needed to be done & done properly. I wasn't sure exactly how to carry out a cervical dislocation so the method I chose was (IMO) the most humane.
> 
> Considering some of the welfare standards that the EU find acceptable (the bird in question was orginally an ex-batt in a terrible state) I think she had a better life (& death) than she would of in her original Eu regualted environment.
> 
> ...


Pretty poor attitude tbh. DEFRA guidelines have stated it can be used in an 'emergency' situation and should be done by someone competent. The definition of 'emergency' has not been defined but not wanting to take your bird to the vet or someone competent is stretching it. If somebody came on here saying they decided to decapitate their kitten instead of worrying it with the vet there'd be outrage, why is it different for a chicken?

Doing it once in ignorance can be accepted, to say you'd do it again with your other birds shows a level of indifference to their suffering. Decapitation without stunning is not recommended because it is inhumane and causes suffering, that's based on science not people's opinion. I'm not sure why you wouldn't look into alternative methods, frankly you should have done it before you got the birds prevent your 'emergency' needing to have this outcome. There are vets, poultry keepers and one day courses out there to show you how to dispatch correctly. Even without that concussion stunning at its most crude is still effective, it simply requires a hard object and some balls, there is really no excuse imo to cut the head off a conscious chicken.

Finally there is a very good reason why suddenly ill/dying chickens owned by inexperienced keepers should be brought to the attention of a vet. There are some very serious and highly pathogenic diseases that can risk your own flock and others around you. It will only take one case originating in and not being detected in backyard flocks and spreading to commercial flocks for the government to come down on us small scale keepers like a tonne of bricks.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously? you think someone shooting a living, feeling, trusting dog in the head because they either can't be arsed or can't spare a few quid is along the same lines as a dog frightened of the vet being given sedative whilst being cuddled by its owner before the injection is given once it has calmed down. I find that quite shocking.


If the dog is being PTS by shooting, they won't necessarily see the gun or understand what it is.



Dogloverlou said:


> Unfortunately some of the general public do find it a perfectly acceptable way of disposing of your dog....until it fails that is.


Seriously, I doubt that was someone trying to kill their dog, looks like an accident.



Ang2 said:


> Has anyone actually seen someone point a gun at a dog? They actually 'know' and cower, and are terrified!


No, they don't. How can they? Especially if they've never worked under the gun.

When it's my horse's time to be PTS, I would choose to get the knacker man rather than the vet. They are practised at using the bolt gun, do it daily. Then the carcass can go to the hound kennels. How can a practised marksman be worse than the injection? I've heard far too many horror stories of horses thrashing round after the injection to want to put my beloved pet through that or to witness that.

Re chickens, they're hung by their feet and their heads are dipped into electrically charged water to stun them. If they raise their heads as they go along the production line, they won't be stunned but still get killed at the end.

Love how this thread has gone off at various tangents.  It's a shame to see a lot of one upmanship type comments and some very immature personal comments, however. I don't see the need.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Seriously, I doubt that was someone trying to kill their dog, looks like an accident.


I know I said I'm staying out of this now, but just wanted to respond to this comment...

_"Whoever did this took a very intentional shot at very close range.

"I think they must have been aiming at the back of the head and Ziggy must have moved right at the last minute.

"I don't know whether they then took him deep into the wood and dumped him, or had already taken him into the wood and so just left him there, injured
_

Quoted by the RSPCA instructor who found the dog at the time.


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> If the dog is being PTS by shooting, they won't necessarily see the gun or understand what it is.
> 
> *Seriously, I doubt that was someone trying to kill their dog, looks like an accident.*


I don't believe for one second that was an accident. I remember the story when it came out, that poor dog.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

lennythecloud said:


> Pretty poor attitude tbh. DEFRA guidelines have stated it can be used in an 'emergency' situation and should be done by someone competent. The definition of 'emergency' has not been defined but not wanting to take your bird to the vet or someone competent is stretching it. If somebody came on here saying they decided to decapitate their kitten instead of worrying it with the vet there'd be outrage, why is it different for a chicken?
> 
> Doing it once in ignorance can be accepted, to say you'd do it again with your other birds shows a level of indifference to their suffering. Decapitation without stunning is not recommended because it is inhumane and causes suffering, that's based on science not people's opinion. I'm not sure why you wouldn't look into alternative methods, frankly you should have done it before you got the birds prevent your 'emergency' needing to have this outcome. There are vets, poultry keepers and one day courses out there to show you how to dispatch correctly. Even without that concussion stunning at its most crude is still effective, it simply requires a hard object and some balls, there is really no excuse imo to cut the head off a conscious chicken.
> 
> Finally there is a very good reason why suddenly ill/dying chickens owned by inexperienced keepers should be brought to the attention of a vet. There are some very serious and highly pathogenic diseases that can risk your own flock and others around you. It will only take one case originating in and not being detected in backyard flocks and spreading to commercial flocks for the government to come down on us small scale keepers like a tonne of bricks.


Poor attitude? So next time if I leave the poor bird for several hours before the vets open, then put her in a box, drive her to the surgery then get her out in a strange enviornment, handled by someone else, then killed that is better .... really??? Dream on 

I considered the situation an emergency, you obviously don't .... I was there, you weren't so how do you know? How can you assess the situation? Even DEFRA haven't defined an emergency so how come you can make a judgement?

As there are not clear guidelines I have intrepeted them to my situation & found his to be applicable. You may find the situation is not an emergency but it's not really your opinion I value tbh

FYI I have since been shown by my butcher how to do this & even he said it's not always stress free for the birds & he's been doing it years.

The bird in qustion was old & not diseased, I am not an idiot, I know how to check & look after my birds even if you seem to think I don't


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> But it's not always quick and painless as some dogs survive and are left in agonizing pain.
> 
> Just imagine if everyone started to think of it as an 'easy' way out and started using the same methods. There would be far more horrific injuries sustained to animals.
> 
> ...


I must admit that I do not find shooting to be an ugly form of death; done properly it can be fast and humane - and peaceful for them I would imagine, if not for us. Could I shoot my own dogs though? I seriously, seriously doubt it.



Moobli said:


> If you re-read my post, I said I do not agree with shooting dogs. It is not something I would ever want to do. *My point was merely that our human emotions can get in the way of whether something is in fact humane or not. A humane death is quick and as painless and stress-free as possible.*


Absolutely this.

I have never posted about this for fear of judgement, but here goes. Last summer I was at "our" forest which is many, many miles from anywhere. There was a drama with poachers and folk hunting and shooting the wild goats for "fun". The gamekeeper used to shoot them cleanly and dispose of the bodies but the poachers / "sportsmen" did not. I found a number of goats over the summer torn apart by dogs, some shot and maimed that had died after dragging themselves back into the trees and one small one by the side of the road, neck clearly broken, but still just about breathing. I am not proud of myself but I used a slip lead around the neck and with all my strength sharply tugged the lead upwards. Anyway, I managed to finish the goat off in as humane a way as I could think of and would do the same again if I had to.

In the past I have slaughtered (one) and seen slaughtered with a knife countless times pigs - the screams of them are almost human and I will never forget them as those of us who had a go couldn't always do the job as fast and efficiently as the trackers who were teaching us. Awful. We also killed chickens but that tended to be clean and efficient. We did for the record eat all of the animals.

I have also seen animals finished off with a shot to the head. Out of all of these methods I would say that the gunshot afforded the most humane death possible but was probably visually the most objectionable to human sensitivities.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

On topic post - I've just seen this footage taken of the Fife foxhound pack digging out a fox, purportedly in November of this year (therefore illegal). It depicts what is essentially a tug of war featuring a terrier and a live fox, viewer discretion is advised:


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

That video is shocking  Such a barbaric act, all in the name of sport


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> When it's my horse's time to be PTS, I would choose to get the knacker man rather than the vet. They are practised at using the bolt gun, do it daily. Then the carcass can go to the hound kennels. How can a practised marksman be worse than the injection? I've heard far too many horror stories of horses thrashing round after the injection to want to put my beloved pet through that or to witness that.


I would always advise a knacker man because if your horse is going to be shot incorrectly, you can bet that its going to be by a vet. I've been witness to that and it still gives me nightmares.

As for lethal injection, I heard this for years and so very nervous when an owner chose this route and asked me to be with her horse. It was incredibly peaceful for the horse and for me actually. I have since been with a further four horses that had this procedure and each time it was peaceful ending. When I asked a family member who's a large animal vet about what I'd previously heard, she just said, it could happen but that's why you would always use a senior equine vet and not someone who's doing work experience.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

That video is truly horrible and very saddening .


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> But it's not always quick and painless as some dogs survive and are left in agonizing pain.
> 
> Just imagine if everyone started to think of it as an 'easy' way out and started using the same methods. There would be far more horrific injuries sustained to animals.
> 
> ...


Pleasing on the eye for you....how do we know the dog isn't in pain or panic as it is injected?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

lennythecloud said:


> On topic post - I've just seen this footage taken of the Fife foxhound pack digging out a fox, purportedly in November of this year (therefore illegal). It depicts what is essentially a tug of war featuring a terrier and a live fox, viewer discretion is advised:


I won't watch the video as I know it will upset me. But what is done in these situations? Who would that be reported to? Did the kennel owners take and upload the video?


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> I won't watch the video as I know it will upset me. But what is done in these situations? Who would that be reported to? Did the kennel owners take and upload the video?


I think a local protest group uploaded the video (I don't know how they got it) but it says that the police didn't want to know and the hunt people didn't get a warning or anything like that 

I just can't comprehend how people can get enjoyment out of that sort of thing. The fact that the men all had big grins on their faces as they pulled the fox out of the hole...I mean how sick are these people??!?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Would it though? Having run a livery yard I have been responsible for standing with horses being put to sleep. Some of them were shot, others were injected. Personally I would have my horses put to sleep by injection because its less traumatic for me. Death by gun/bolt is always witnessed as a violent end rather than a peaceful one, even though, I know in my heart of hearts that it was quick and clean for the horse.
> 
> Being witness to any pet dying is something that lives on in our memory forever. Fortunately we have happy memories of the animals lives. The horses I stood with whilst being shot have no other memory for me than that awful moment when I stood with that beautiful beast about to have its brains blown out.


I too have had the awful task of standing with either liveries or their horses for PTS. Its not a pleasant experience at all but something that has to be done calmly and quickly and done by the best person for the job.

I held my friends old TB as she was injected, that poor mare took 40 minutes to finally die....it was terrible but done by the best vet available at the time. Horrible. I have also held horses where the first shot didn't kill them outright...

I would choose a knacker man over a vet any day.

We moved here and a 3 year old filly had a bad accident. I rang the vet and told him to bring his gun...now. He would have had to pass my house before going to the surgery for the gun.....I told him the horse needs PTS now....he arrived here and agreed with me re PTS and offered to travel 6 miles each way to the surgery to get the gun but had the drugs in the car so I told him ok, injection.The poor filly went peacefully and calmly and it changed my mind re gun or injection. If he had had the gun with him and so no further delay and I was given a choice, would have chosen the gun.

The injury to this filly was as she was coming out of her stable she lashed out with a back foot and hit the hinge on a heavy gate. She smashed her hoof off her foot and it was hanging by a thread of skin. She needed PTS asap.Vet arrived within 10 minutes of my call.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> So how do Kosher and Halal butchers get away with it?
> 
> Chicken may be slaughtered for Kosher and Halal without stunning, this makes up 4% of the chickens slaughtered in the UK.
> 
> ...


kosher and halal are a whole new can of worms and thre main reason why my husband and I stopped farming sheep.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Jellypi3 said:


> I think a local protest group uploaded the video (I don't know how they got it) but it says that the police didn't want to know and the hunt people didn't get a warning or anything like that
> 
> I just can't comprehend how people can get enjoyment out of that sort of thing. The fact that the men all had big grins on their faces as they pulled the fox out of the hole...I mean how sick are these people??!?


Disgusting  Laws are put into place for a reason so it's very disheartening the police wanted nothing to do with a law being broken.

Makes me worry at just how 'legal' these drag hunts are when away from the public eye.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> Pleasing on the eye for you....how do we know the dog isn't in pain or panic as it is injected?


My last one was. The thing of nightmares and I have nightmares about it regularly


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Poor attitude? So next time if I leave the poor bird for several hours before the vets open, then put her in a box, drive her to the surgery then get her out in a strange enviornment, handled by someone else, then killed that is better .... really??? Dream on


As I'm sure you know vets are obliged to offer or outsource a 24 hour service, you chose not to use that for whatever reason. People put their animal in a box and take it to the vet all the time. People with sick budgies, rabbits and kittens tend to do that rather than cut their heads off without prior stunning.



Cleo38 said:


> I considered the situation an emergency, you obviously don't .... I was there, you weren't so how do you know? How can you assess the situation? Even DEFRA haven't defined an emergency so how come you can make a judgement?


The DEFRA guidelines may be vague (they often are) in permitting it but not recommending it but there is further legislation of importance. The animal welfare act 2006 requires you not to cause unnecessary suffering to a protected species, particularly where that suffering could be avoided or reduced. I doubt anyone would bother testing it against chicken decapitation but I think in a non-livestock species you'd be on shaky ground for disregarding other methods - much like this fellow who cut his dogs throat - How could he do it? Abattoir worker slit puppy's throat because he couldn't afford vet's bill | Daily Mail Online.

Regardless of the legislation the question still remains why you'd want to choose an inhumane method of dispatch. Decapitation without prior stunning is universally considered inappropriate for birds on welfare grounds and there is absolutely no reason not to stun by concussion first, emergency or no emergency.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Disgusting  Laws are put into place for a reason so it's very disheartening the police wanted nothing to do with a law being broken.
> 
> Makes me worry at just how 'legal' these drag hunts are when away from the public eye.


I have been drag hunting. The hunt was responsible, never saw them chase any live quarry, just some stinky liquid poured on another horses feet to spread the scent.

Also, before and after the hunt, there was a man whose job was to make sure jumps were safe....like no barbed wire or broken fence posts and after the hunt the same man went round repairing any fences, shutting and locking any gates and also pushing down divits made by horse hooves.

Next.....back to the pub , horses rugged and given hay nets, everybody else had something tasty to eat.

Drag hunters are not monsters just gong with the hunt under the guise of drag hunting and yet looking for prey. If they had wanted to kill, they would have jined a fox hunt....going back here to before the ban but plenty more people were the same frame of mind as I was/am.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Have you?
> 
> I did post some pages back at how many of those claiming it was a quick, simple, procedure, had actually witnessed a shooting.
> 
> But I have been able to find the horror stories online of dogs surviving and sustaining horrific injuries. Didn't take me long at all.


Not a dog no but many other animals including pigs which have a much harder bone structure


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rona said:


> My last one was. The thing of nightmares and I have nightmares about it regularly


Mine and my husbands first dog together was diagnosed with a liver problem aged just over 9 years. Vet pushed for us to PTS...if it was now I would say time will tell and would have left it. We had young children and deciding factor was that as the dog was sickly and in pain he may bite one of the kids....so we took him for PTS and it was horrific.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> I have been drag hunting. The hunt was responsible, never saw them chase any live quarry, just some stinky liquid poured on another horses feet to spread the scent.
> 
> Also, before and after the hunt, there was a man whose job was to make sure jumps were safe....like no barbed wire or broken fence posts and after the hunt the same man went round repairing any fences, shutting and locking any gates and also pushing down divits made by horse hooves.
> 
> ...


It sounds like fun if done responsibly, and legally, which I'm sure many are. But I bet there are many that do illegally hunt still. As I said in the beginning of this thread, the hunt master in the local hunt here is pro hunting and says 'he won't stop fighting until the law is overturned'. Drag hunting they may be. But the attitude is very much not in the spirit of innocent fun.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I know I said I'm staying out of this now, but just wanted to respond to this comment...
> 
> _"Whoever did this took a very intentional shot at very close range.
> 
> ...


There are literally no similarities between a trained marksman/knackerman and a complete moron with a crossbow.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> It sounds like fun if done responsibly, and legally, which I'm sure many are. But I bet there are many that do illegally hunt still. As I said in the beginning of this thread, the hunt master in the local hunt here is pro hunting and says 'he won't stop fighting until the law is overturned'. Drag hunting they may be. But the attitude is very much not in the spirit of innocent fun.


and plenty more hunters could never see the point in taking horses and hounds out, chasing nothing and no kill at the end of it...they thought it seemed a very expensive way to go for a mad blast hack and a few jumps in the countryside.

If master were to stop hunting...even if its only drag...and then the ban was overturned, I wopuld imagine it would be very difficult for him to get back into the swing of things. Plus, once the knowledge and hounds etc are all gone...no way back at all which is probably why he now drags even if he does consider this 2nd best.

Occasionally I heard that hunt the hunt I was involved with did flush the odd hare.....don't remember hearing that any were killed.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Have you?
> 
> I did post some pages back at how many of those claiming it was a quick, simple, procedure, had actually witnessed a shooting.
> 
> But I have been able to find the horror stories online of dogs surviving and sustaining horrific injuries. Didn't take me long at all.


Those stories are not from the owners though are they? They are usually animals shot by horrid little oiks or sub humans not owners that care.

How many owners who have watched their dogs die horrible deaths by injection actually say anything about it? 

This is the first time I've mentioned it I think in the 12 years since it happened. Most people don't want to worry those that are just about to have the vet out 

OK. I also know of someone who asked a marksman to shoot his dog at the end of it's life. The dog was literally terrified of vets, and you can't tell me they don't smell it on the vets when they come to your home.
The dog didn't know anything about it. One minute he was on an outing sniffing about and the next gone!!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> Those stories are not from the owners though are they? They are usually animals shot by horrid little oiks or sub humans not owners that care.
> 
> How many owners who have watched their dogs die horrible deaths by injection actually say anything about it?
> 
> ...


Exactly this! When Toby had his first TPLO op (ruptured cruciate ligament) & needed the staples out I asked for a home visit rather than risk him hurting his leg by taking him to the surgery (I was being overly cautious!).

When the vet & nurse arrived he was so excited to see the visitors as he always was but as soon as they came in, he went to say 'hello', sniffed them than ran away .... he never, ever does this to guests but he knew they were 'the enemy' (he hates vets!)


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Just to say that under some circumstances, terrier work is still legal. However it's been banned if it's in conjunction with the hunt


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> Those stories are not from the owners though are they? They are usually animals shot by horrid little oiks or sub humans not owners that care.
> 
> How many owners who have watched their dogs die horrible deaths by injection actually say anything about it?
> 
> ...


But the average owner is not a trained marksman. I've also not heard of hiring one for the day to shoot the family pet either. So unless you're in the farming/hunting/shooting community, the average owner would not have access to a gun and I doubt it would even cross the mind of most owners.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> But the average owner is not a trained marksman. I've also not heard of hiring one for the day to shoot the family pet either. So unless you're in the farming/hunting/shooting community, the average owner would not have access to a gun and I doubt it would even cross the mind of most owners.


But farmers, hunters and the like are dog owner too you know and most adore their dogs just as much as you


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> But farmers, hunters and the like are dog owner too you know and most adore their dogs just as much as you


Well, some do. Although the examples given here of farmers shooting Hounds of no value/use, and rottiepointerhouse's very own dog nearly being shot for being gun-shy, say otherwise.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Well, some do. Although the examples given here of farmers shooting Hounds of no value/use, and rottiepointerhouse's very own dog nearly being shot for being gun-shy, say otherwise.


So all farmers etc are like that eh? 
What like all the pet owners who mistreat their animals?

You only have to walk down a street to see a dog being abused 

There's sh*t heads in all areas of animal ownership as well as the good


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Disgusting  Laws are put into place for a reason so it's very disheartening the police wanted nothing to do with a law being broken.
> 
> Makes me worry at just how 'legal' these drag hunts are when away from the public eye.


Drag hunting is totally different. People like me have been drag hunting way before the ban on fox hunting and most of us who come from the drag hunting fraternity are anti-fox hunting. If anything its a closet club of ex hunters who won't let just anyone join because they know full well they are committing an illegal act. If I joined a drag hunt and found out they were really looking for a fox I would go straight to the authorities and so would any of my drag hunting friends.

I feel guilty for not watching the video but I know how distressed it will make me. What makes me wonder is, the barbarity of people. How can people sit back on their horses and watch this? What sort of humans are they?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> So all farmers etc are like that eh?
> What like all the pet owners who mistreat their animals?
> 
> You only have to walk down a street to see a dog being abused
> ...


Note - _Some do_

Quite clearly means not all.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Note - _Some do_
> 
> Quite clearly means not all.


I've seen far less cruelty from the farming shooting community than I have from pet owners.

I've seen one electric collar on a working dog, I've seen at least 15 on pet dogs.

I've only seen 2 dogs beaten by working dog people, I've seen so many I can't count by pet owners.

I've never seen a working dog so fat it couldn't walk properly, I've seen many many pet dogs.

I've never had any of my gun dog friends leave their dogs suffering at the end of their lives..............

I've been in the farming, shooting world for most of my life. Maybe I've been lucky with those I've been involved with but I can only form my opinion from my own experiences.

Where are your opinions coming from?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> I've seen far less cruelty from the farming shooting community than I have from pet owners.
> 
> I've seen one electric collar on a working dog, I've seen at least 15 on pet dogs.
> 
> ...


I've never disputed that farmers can't love their dogs. If you'd read my post correctly beforehand you wouldn't have needed to come back with 'so all farmers are like that, eh' because I never said that was the case. Up to you what you believe/think/feel. As is my right.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> But the average owner is not a trained marksman. I've also not heard of hiring one for the day to shoot the family pet either. So unless you're in the farming/hunting/shooting community, the average owner would not have access to a gun and I doubt it would even cross the mind of most owners.


I don't think it would cross the minds of most dog owners at all, youre right, same as it would never cross their minds to administer the injection themselves either. Does not mean , done correctly it is not a humane way to pts. Dont think anyone on here is considering taking a gun and "having a go" themselves, unless they felt it 110% within their experience/capabilities.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Can I just point out that the clip of the fox, if taken in Fife, then it will not be a drag hunt. Flushing foxes to waiting guns IS allowed in Scotland. I have no idea how they stop the hounds continuing to chase the fox when it breaks cover 

There was a TV programme a while ago about a family who lived in a very isolated part of Scotland. ThEy were small time farmers and didn't have electricity (apart from a small generator they sometimes used to operate machinery.
In the programme you saw the farmer killing one of his sheep and it was the most humane slaughter of any animal I have ever seen. He had collected a number of his sheep in a pen. He entered the pen with a gun behind his back and a bucket of gran in his other hand. He spread the grain on the ground, and as she sheep started to eat, he nudged the others out the way with his foot, took aim and shot the sheep cleanly at point blank range. It instantly fell to the ground dead. The other sheep didn't even look up from eating the grain. I think( but I don't know) that some deer farms dispatch their deer in this way (though I can't for the life of me understand why we have to farm venison when there are far too many ruining the hills already. But that's another discussion.)


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> If the dog is being PTS by shooting, they won't necessarily see the gun or understand what it is.
> 
> Seriously, I doubt that was someone trying to kill their dog, looks like an accident.
> 
> ...


I can assure you my gunshy GSP - the one who was going to be shot - knows what a gun is and is terrified to the point of cowering/making himself small and peeing himself. Very humane to kill him by shooting, I think not.

I've had two horses PTS by vets/lethal injection and stood with them in their stables giving a gentle head rub. Neither showed any fear or distress and both died instantly and peacefully. I was given the option of having them shot so that they could be fed to the local hunt and I said I would rather gouge my own eyes out thanks.

Some of the images from things discussed on this thread on a pet lovers forum will haunt me for many years


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh wow this thread is still running!! Gone slightly off topic !!! Maybe that's how it's stayed open...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can assure you my gunshy GSP - the one who was going to be shot - knows what a gun is and is terrified to the point of cowering/making himself small and peeing himself. Very humane to kill him by shooting, I think not.
> 
> I've had two horses PTS by vets/lethal injection and stood with them in their stables giving a gentle head rub. Neither showed any fear or distress and both died instantly and peacefully. I was given the option of having them shot so that they could be fed to the local hunt and I said I would rather gouge my own eyes out thanks.
> 
> Some of the images from things discussed on this thread on a pet lovers forum will haunt me for many years


I think that these things are contextual as your gun-shy boy clearly knew what a gun was and that he was afraid of it  the same as some dogs being afraid of say brooms if they have been hit with one .

Can I just add that the things I have discussed (bar the goat) have been part of my work in my former life - I did not volunteer to go and do those things; they were part of a survival course.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I would always advise a knacker man because if your horse is going to be shot incorrectly, you can bet that its going to be by a vet. I've been witness to that and it still gives me nightmares.
> 
> As for lethal injection, I heard this for years and so very nervous when an owner chose this route and asked me to be with her horse. It was incredibly peaceful for the horse and for me actually. I have since been with a further four horses that had this procedure and each time it was peaceful ending. When I asked a family member who's a large animal vet about what I'd previously heard, she just said, it could happen but that's why you would always use a senior equine vet and not someone who's doing work experience.


I know exactly which vet I'd want to deal with for anything serious, he dealt with my last horse which was eventually PTS (sadly the RVC use the injection and don't allow owners to stay to hold their horse) but I'm too scared of my boy suffering to risk the injection: I've seen it done and the horse looked disoriented, tried to stop falling, needed to be re-injected, thrashed, was clearly fighting the meds.  Having had the horse sedated several times for various reasons, he'd probably be ok, but I'd still defo prefer the knackermen.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

My Uncle was the local knackerman. The best way for a horse to go imho.....Effective and clean. My uncle always insisted on keeping the gun hidden and feeding the horse polos while covering their eyes.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> What?  :confused
> 
> All my dog have loved the gun


They don't love guns if they're gunshy & this is a common reason shooters 'get rid' of their dogs.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> I know exactly which vet I'd want to deal with for anything serious, he dealt with my last horse which was eventually PTS (sadly the RVC use the injection and don't allow owners to stay to hold their horse) but I'm too scared of my boy suffering to risk the injection: I've seen it done and the horse looked disoriented, tried to stop falling, needed to be re-injected, thrashed, was clearly fighting the meds.  Having had the horse sedated several times for various reasons, he'd probably be ok, but I'd still defo prefer the knackermen.


Its reassuring to know that here in the UK the vet will initially heavily sedate the horse before injecting the concoction that will stop the heart.

I know what you mean; some horses are very good at fighting sedation but keep in mind, it wasn't the sedation that was killing the horse. The horse was fighting going to sleep at that point.

I would have no qualms about my horse being used to feed animals and obviously that can't be done when its had a heavy dose of barbiturates but standing with my own horse, about to be shot would prove very difficult for me. Laying with him in the paddock as he falls into a deep sleep would just feels more humane to me. I know it isn't any more humane and funnily enough I would promote the knacker man to other horse owners...its just an emotional thing for me


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> Have you?
> 
> I did post some pages back at how many of those claiming it was a quick, simple, procedure, had actually witnessed a shooting.
> 
> But I have been able to find the horror stories online of dogs surviving and sustaining horrific injuries. Didn't take me long at all.


I have seen sheep and cows shot and it was a quick, painless and stress-free procedure. That doesn't make it any easier for me watching (as a rather sensitive animal lover) but the animals themselves definitely didn't see it coming and died instantaneously.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Would it though? Having run a livery yard I have been responsible for standing with horses being put to sleep. Some of them were shot, others were injected. Personally I would have my horses put to sleep by injection because its less traumatic for me. Death by gun/bolt is always witnessed as a violent end rather than a peaceful one, even though, I know in my heart of hearts that it was quick and clean for the horse.
> 
> Being witness to any pet dying is something that lives on in our memory forever. Fortunately we have happy memories of the animals lives. The horses I stood with whilst being shot have no other memory for me than that awful moment when I stood with that beautiful beast about to have its brains blown out.


I had to have one of our ponies put to sleep just last week. I agonised over whether to have him shot or injected and, in the end, I opted for an injection as it would be easier on myself and my conscience. I really don't think it makes a difference to the animal itself, as you say - just the person or persons watching.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

look at these Blood thirsty bunch of perverts, all pet owners must want to do this 

Cruel dog owner filmed hitting his terrier in the face with a DEAD RABBIT and kicking it | Daily Mail Online

Cruel labourer filmed swinging his pet kitten around by its tail | Daily Mail Online

Pet owner did DIY surgery on dog - then bragged about it on Facebook | Daily Mail Online


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> Can I just point out that the clip of the fox, if taken in Fife, then it will not be a drag hunt. Flushing foxes to waiting guns IS allowed in Scotland. I have no idea how they stop the hounds continuing to chase the fox when it breaks cover
> 
> There was a TV programme a while ago about a family who lived in a very isolated part of Scotland. ThEy were small time farmers and didn't have electricity (apart from a small generator they sometimes used to operate machinery.
> In the programme you saw the farmer killing one of his sheep and it was the most humane slaughter of any animal I have ever seen. He had collected a number of his sheep in a pen. He entered the pen with a gun behind his back and a bucket of gran in his other hand. He spread the grain on the ground, and as she sheep started to eat, he nudged the others out the way with his foot, took aim and shot the sheep cleanly at point blank range. It instantly fell to the ground dead. The other sheep didn't even look up from eating the grain. I think( but I don't know) that some deer farms dispatch their deer in this way (though I can't for the life of me understand why we have to farm venison when there are far too many ruining the hills already. But that's another discussion.)


That programme was the excellent "Power to the Pococks" - best thing on TV in a long while!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Moobli said:


> That programme was the excellent "Power to the Pococks" - best thing on TV in a long while!


Got that booked marked for watching :thumbup:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rona said:


> look at these Blood thirsty bunch of perverts, all pet owners must want to do this
> 
> Cruel dog owner filmed hitting his terrier in the face with a DEAD RABBIT and kicking it | Daily Mail Online
> 
> ...


If the best you could find was Daily Mail articles you must be desperate!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lennythecloud said:


> On topic post - I've just seen this footage taken of the Fife foxhound pack digging out a fox, purportedly in November of this year (therefore illegal). It depicts what is essentially a tug of war featuring a terrier and a live fox, viewer discretion is advised:


I cant bear to watch it. I've seen so many heartwrenching videos of foxes suffering the most horrific deaths at the hands of these monsters, I just cant stomach seeing anymore.



Dogloverlou said:


> I won't watch the video as I know it will upset me. But what is done in these situations? Who would that be reported to? Did the kennel owners take and upload the video?


Hunts are flouting the law all the time & illegally killing foxes. Sabs & monitors + animal welfare organisations have filmed loads of illegal hunts.



Jellypi3 said:


> I think a local protest group uploaded the video (I don't know how they got it) but it says that the police didn't want to know and the hunt people didn't get a warning or anything like that
> 
> I just can't comprehend how people can get enjoyment out of that sort of thing. The fact that the men all had big grins on their faces as they pulled the fox out of the hole...I mean how sick are these people??!?


People who support fox hunting are zoopaths, they are unable to empathise with the pain & suffering of their victims.

.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/388363-lovely-peaceful-scene.html


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rona said:


> look at these Blood thirsty bunch of perverts, all pet owners must want to do this
> 
> Cruel dog owner filmed hitting his terrier in the face with a DEAD RABBIT and kicking it | Daily Mail Online
> 
> ...


Did anyone see the RSPCA programme where the bloke was throwing a staffie puppy round a horrible back yard, then got its head and smashed the back door on it repeatedly? I bawled my eyes out over that


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Wow 40 pages. I know the topic has diverted but I love nothing more than a long thread like this


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I have euthanased hundreds - probably well into four figures now - of animals. Most have been via injection, though I have necked chickens many times. Fortunately, most of the injections are peaceful. However, inevitably, some are not - no matter how smoothly the procedure itself goes.

Death is not always pretty. It can sometimes be messy, it can sometimes be noisy, it can sometimes be physically frantic. I hate it when this happens in front of an owner, for although the animal won't know anything by that point, the owner sees everything. And even though I warn them it can happen, I don't think it necessarily makes it much easier if they've never seen it before. 

There are also a few occasions when the procedure itself doesn't go to plan - the animal can struggle or panic. I tend to sedate most patients first, so rarely have this issue - thank goodness. But it can certainly happen and many of us have been witness to it.

I've seen livestock and horses shot and injected, and personally if I had a horse I would opt for shooting. In the hands of an experienced shot then it's instant and painless.

I have never seen a dog shot, but have had the occasional clients who shoot their own dogs when the time comes. I don't have a problem with it, personally, provided they are competent marksmen/women. I don't think it is any more or less humane than injectable euthanasia.

Companion animals aside, I've worked in an abattoir and watched countless cattle, sheep and pigs slaughtered with the captive bolt. Of course it's not pleasant to watch, but I wasn't _uncomfortable_ with it when it came to directing my thinking on whether or not I eat meat (I do). I considered it humane.

As for traditional hunting as a method of fox control, I can't support that. Hundreds of people, horses and dogs careering across the countryside in pink coats is not, to me, a quick and efficient way of controlling fox numbers. It is undeniably about the sport - which is fine in the drag hunting context and I can appreciate the thrill and social aspects (I have never hunted, but I am a horse lover and rider) - but when death begins, as far as I am concerned pleasure should cease.

You don't eat foxes.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> People who support fox hunting are zoopaths, they are unable to empathise with the pain & suffering of their victims.
> 
> .


But (nearly) everyone would be guilty of this; those that eat meat, wear leather/fur, those that also consume dairy products, down to those that swat flies.

People who hunt are not monsters but 'normal' people regardless of our opinions of fox hunting.

(And I have been able to form this opinion through being involved with the HSA in the 90's)


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

I disagree Cleo

The best words I've read on this thread so fare are by Shoshannah

*"when death begins, as far as I am concerned pleasure should cease."
*

and I think those words speak for most people here. They do not however, speak on behalf of the Master of the hunt who takes some sick sadistic pleasure in torturing a fox or two whilst out on a jolly. There is a big difference between killing an animal humanely and killing it for ones own enjoyment.


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

i love the thrill i love the kill


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But (nearly) everyone would be guilty of this


Oh dear...


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can assure you my gunshy GSP - the one who was going to be shot - knows what a gun is and is terrified to the point of cowering/making himself small and peeing himself. Very humane to kill him by shooting, I think not.
> 
> I've had two horses PTS by vets/lethal injection and stood with them in their stables giving a gentle head rub. Neither showed any fear or distress and both died instantly and peacefully. I was given the option of having them shot so that they could be fed to the local hunt and I said I would rather gouge my own eyes out thanks.
> 
> Some of the images from things discussed on this thread on a pet lovers forum will haunt me for many years


My horses have been the love of my life since I can remember...there would be no point to living for me if I didn't have or wasn't around my horses. PTS by injection and then incinerating the corpse is a complete waste of horse flesh and once its dead, its dead.....and I would gladly donate what was left to the local hunt kennel to feed their dogs from one that was shot.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I disagree Cleo
> 
> The best words I've read on this thread so fare are by Shoshannah
> 
> ...


But alot of hunt members don't 'enjoy' the death of the fox, they enjoy the hunt.

Alot of people who eat meat won't 'enjoy' the death of an animal but they certainly do enjoy the end product.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> I know exactly which vet I'd want to deal with for anything serious, he dealt with my last horse which was eventually PTS (sadly the RVC use the injection and don't allow owners to stay to hold their horse) but I'm too scared of my boy suffering to risk the injection: I've seen it done and the horse looked disoriented, tried to stop falling, needed to be re-injected, thrashed, was clearly fighting the meds.  Having had the horse sedated several times for various reasons, he'd probably be ok, but I'd still defo prefer the knackermen.


That's ok when its a planned PTS and not a quick, theres been an accident, tell the vet to fetch a gun.

If I want the knacker man here I have to book an appointment. I could ring and ask if there was one around in the area but for me the vet would be here the fastest.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> That's ok when its a planned PTS and not a quick, theres been an accident, tell the vet to fetch a gun.
> 
> If I want the knacker man here I have to book an appointment. I could ring and ask if there was one around in the area but for me the vet would be here the fastest.


Same, but I'm hoping my boy will live out his golden years being fed and pampered and I'll be able to plan his last day, stuffing him with treats and holding the leadrope. Bugger, crying thinking about it and he's only 13!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> But alot of hunt members don't 'enjoy' the death of the fox, they enjoy the hunt.
> 
> Alot of people who eat meat won't 'enjoy' the death of an animal but they certainly do enjoy the end product.


But the end products differ - one is a foodsource, the other is not. The methods of the kill differ greatly too. Nobody works in an abattoir for enjoyment.

Besides, drag hunting should provide all the aspects of the hunt without the death at the end, and therefore be a satisfactory alternative. It does seem to be for most, hence the continued (increased) popularity of drag hunting, but for a few drag hunting isn't good enough. These are the few whom I cannot comprehend or bring myself to support.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Same, but I'm hoping MH boy will live out his golden years being fed and pampered and I'll be able to plan his last day, stuffing him with treats and holding the leadrope. Bugger, crying thinking about it and he's only 13!


at 13 he is still a mere whippersnapper. lol.

Our old stallion was 26 and struggling in his last winter. I decided he would have the summer in front of him but not go through another winter.

He had a semi ok summer and then he picked up and was running round like a spring chicken. We had a 4 year old stallion in the field to keep him company and it seemed to give the old boy a new lease of life bossing the youngster about. My husband asked me if I would change my mind re PTS. I said no, nothing worse than half way through a winter and you lift the rugs to see a hat rack that is cold and miserable underneath....this was the last summer....but I did think about things all summer.

Come September, it had been a lovely day, old boy had bossed youngster a bit throughout the day and when I went to check around 7pm that all was ok, I looked at old boys face and thought....how did he go downhill so fast?He had a problem with his legs....but now was dog lame on 2 of them...I was thinking winter would start in November...not a lovely sunny evening in mid September. I rang the vet...told him to bring his gun...don't think my vet likes to shoot. He called here from home which is halfway to the surgery. He looked at old boy...and he welled up. Everybody loved that horse. He offered to go and get the gun. I said no, just get on with it.I couldn't hold him but it was important to my daughter who had always ridden him to be there for him at the end so she held him....and nothing would have stopped her anyway.

Vet was here in less than 10 minutes. Horse was gone within 15 minutes of the call out.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> My horses have been the love of my life since I can remember...there would be no point to living for me if I didn't have or wasn't around my horses. PTS by injection and then incinerating the corpse is a complete waste of horse flesh and once its dead, its dead.....and I would gladly donate what was left to the local hunt kennel to feed their dogs from one that was shot.


Well I guess life would be boring if we all thought the same but there is no way I would support the local hunt and my horses were part of my family. Out of interest would you donate their horse flesh to feed dogs in local rescues (if they would take it) and would you also donate the bodies of dead relatives to feed the hunt dogs? Thats not meant as an attack by the way, I am just interested.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Well I guess life would be boring if we all thought the same but there is no way I would support the local hunt and my horses were part of my family. Out of interest would you donate their horse flesh to feed dogs in local rescues (if they would take it) and would you also donate the bodies of dead relatives to feed the hunt dogs? Thats not meant as an attack by the way, I am just interested.


Actually, I would donate horse flesh to a local rescue if they wanted it...why pay the knackerman £100 to take away a corpse and then probably sell it on as horse beef anyway?

And, are you serious about donating dead relatives to feed hunt dogs? cos that is about the sickest thing I ever heard.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> Actually, I would donate horse flesh to a local rescue if they wanted it...why pay the knackerman £100 to take away a corpse and then probably sell it on as horse beef anyway?
> 
> And, are you serious about donating dead relatives to feed hunt dogs? cos that is about the sickest thing I ever heard.


Yes it was a serious question. I consider my horses and my dogs as family members but you said it was a waste of good horse flesh not to donate their bodies to the hunt so I asked very politely if you considered donating dead relatives as the same. Sorry if that upset you it wasn't meant to it was a genuine attempt to understand other peoples point of view.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I think it's too easy to say all people who hunt(ed) - because now it's not supposed to happen in the same way- are blood thirsty, brutal animal haters. 

Most people I knew who hunted (in fact all of them bar the MFH) did NOT enjoy a fox being killed. They went for the opportunity to ride across countryside normally off limits to them. I know it's a cliche, but it's true.* The vast majority were not there to see foxes being killed. I had many discussions around the subject when it was legal, and frequently asked why the hunt would not just turn itself into a drag hunt. I always got the same response: no farmer would give permission to ride over their land unless it was to "control the fox population". Even though it didn't really. The local hunt here didn't change to a drag hunt when the legislation came in- they just endeavoured to remain working within we new law. I have been told (but I don't know how true it is) that they now get more foxes than they ever got before as there is no chance of escape. They also get more fit foxes than before.


* they hypocrisy was not lost on them- many were my friends and I knew then to be caring individuals.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Will sort this one in the morning !


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