# Help with finding the right British short hair.



## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

I have always had British short hairs and am looking for another one.
I am finding it very difficult this time, as I don't know where to start.
I would like the breeder to have had the parents HCM tested.
This is very important to me as I lost Harley at the age of 3 years and nine months to HCM and I don't want another cat to go through that nor me with the heart ache.

Can anyone give me some tips and advice.
you can always P M me .

I am not in a rush, if we have to wait for the right kitten that's fine. 
We are just ready for number 3.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

jill3 said:


> I have always had British short hairs and am looking for another one.
> I am finding it very difficult this time, as I don't know where to start.
> I would like the breeder to have had the parents HCM tested.
> This is very important to me as I lost Harley at the age of 3 years and nine months to HCM and I don't want another cat to go through that nor me with the heart ache.
> ...


Hiya

As a new breeders of BSH I have not come across any breeders of this breed that test for HCM as it is more common in ragdolls and Maine Coon cats ... British have more problems with PKD , I also believe that the test that langfords do is only for rags and MC if this is correct that's why BSH breeder don't generally test for it as its for a different breeder..


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Cosmills said:


> Hiya
> 
> As a new breeders of BSH I have not come across any breeders of this breed that test for HCM as it is more common in ragdolls and Maine Coon cats ... British have more problems with PKD , I also believe that the test that langfords do is only for rags and MC if this is correct that's why BSH breeder don't generally test for it as its for a different breeder..


Thanks Cosmills.
The vet that had to put Harley to sleep said to us that she had had a few British with HCM.
Just had a look at your pictures and you have some gorgeous Babies.
I just thought you only had the one.
As you are new to breeding are you having your first litter soon?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

jill3 said:


> Thanks Cosmills.
> The vet that had to put Harley to sleep said to us that she had had a few British with HCM.
> Just had a look at your pictures and you have some gorgeous Babies.
> I just thought you only had the one.
> As you are new to breeding are you having your first litter soon?


I currently have 2 active queens (soon to become 3) and my boy .. Rosie my blue tortie tabby cp is due to go to stud in the next 7 days so hopefully we will have a litter come June/July time.

Sorry to hear about Harley, HCM may crop up once in a while I guess as can any gene carrying problem ... We test as much as we can . I will do some more research into HCM as I would like to know if its becoming a problem within my breed,

Thanks for you comments... They are very dear to me and very loved members of our family x


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

There are BSH breeders who get their cats HCM scanned by a cardiologist, even breeds where a gene test exists scan yearly. 
The dna test only picks up a certain strain, so a heart scan is needed as well.

Though I'm not in the UK, perhaps breeders there don't screen their cats as they do in other countries.
ETA a very quick google search did turn up some breeders who HCM scan in the UK.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I did a bit of research in the early hours... There was a campaign running a few years ago but spaces were very limited .. Dont think it ever took off , It seem to affect the young cats more than the older ones, I suppose with ultrasound checking this would have to be done regular as it would only be a snap shot of that day .. I will email langford to see why there don't have a DNA test for BSH. I will also speak to some of the breeders I know ... Watch this space


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Cosmills said:


> I did a bit of research in the early hours... There was a campaign running a few years ago but spaces were very limited .. Dont think it ever took off , It seem to affect the young cats more than the older ones, I suppose with ultrasound checking this would have to be done regular as it would only be a snap shot of that day .. I will email langford to see why there don't have a DNA test for BSH. I will also speak to some of the breeders I know ... Watch this space


Thanks Cosmills. x
Good Luck with Rosie hope she like's her Stud


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

This has been discussed before. No HCM test via DNA for BSHs yet but echos (by a recognised radiologist/cardiologist. List can be found on PawPeds) can be done on an annual basis. HCM is prevalent amongst BSHs but it is late onset so it is more common to be diagnosed with it at a later age (usually 4-8 years old). 

In Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark etc., HCM tests are now expected rather than a 'nice to have'.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi jill like already mentioned testing for HCM is not the norm here however if you look hard enough you may find someone who does test for it you may have to travel most probably though.

We don't test for HCM.

We have litters due in around 6 weeks feel free to come for a nosey when kittens are old enough of course.

Other that that good luck in your search.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi  this is correct, gene testing isn't available for BSH so you would need to find a breeder that scans for it , which should be done every year ideally .

Re the gene test ( ragdolls and coonies ) it only tests for one gene mutation anyway ( so a negative gene test does not guarantee HCM free ) and I personally feel many breeders hide behind this now and advertise their kittens as HCM free based on a negative gene test result  in fact, I don't think, I *know* , as I've had the conversation with a breeder recently.

I understand your fear of HCM and really hope you can find a breeder that scans 

What about WeLoveBSHs on here ? Maybe she scans .....she has some gorgeous kittens too at the moment 

*EDIT* I was busy typing when WLBSHS posted, sorry x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cats cats cats said:


> Hi  this is correct, gene testing isn't available for BSH so you would need to find a breeder that scans for it , which should be done every year ideally .
> 
> Re the gene test ( ragdolls and coonies ) it only tests for one gene mutation anyway ( so a negative gene test does not guarantee HCM free ) and I personally feel many breeders hide behind this now and advertise their kittens as HCM free based on a negative gene test result  in fact, I don't think, I *know* , as I've had the conversation with a breeder recently.
> 
> ...


lol cross post ccc.

No we don't scan as we don't see a big enough problem in the breed but if it ever did become a requirement or I felt the problem was big enough in the breed we would scan for sure.

Sorry all kittens are reserved in these two litters but as I said earlier we do have two girls around 3 weeks into kitten I checked them today and they have pinked up lovely.So we should be hearing little squeeks in around 6 weeks.

I can not wait were expecting cp's, bi cp's and selfs.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> lol cross post ccc.
> 
> No we don't scan as we don't see a big enough problem in the breed but if it ever did become a requirement or I felt the problem was big enough in the breed we would scan for sure.
> 
> ...


Oooh who is having the black beauty ? Is it someone on here ? I hope so , I'd love to see him grow up :001_tt1:

I agree re HCM , although it is very prevalent in coonies and ragdolls, I don't think it is so much so in BSH . It's super to know that if it ever became so, you would scan  if I ever wanted a BSH ( well, I already do but you know what I mean  ) I'd be contacting you first without doubt  for a black one !!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cats cats cats said:


> Oooh who is having the black beauty ? Is it someone on here ? I hope so , I'd love to see him grow up :001_tt1:
> 
> I agree re HCM , although it is very prevalent in coonies and ragdolls, I don't think it is so much so in BSH . It's super to know that if it ever became so, you would scan  if I ever wanted a BSH ( well, I already do but you know what I mean  ) I'd be contacting you first without doubt  for a black one !!


Awww thanx ccc.The new owner is not off pf but she is a lovely lady named mary she is taking both sooty and sweep and mum too 

3 kittens are staying on pf though,cosmills is having the seal point she came to view today we had a good old chat.
Tincan is taking the variant lilac bi point,and im keeping the sealpoint variant


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Oh how lovely that sooty and sweep and mum are going together, you must be thrilled   

And super that 3 are going to forum members .....well, one being you   i can't wait to see the variants grow big and fluffy ! :001_tt1:

I'd love a variant .....a black one ....wow, how yummy would that be !!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cats cats cats said:


> Oh how lovely that sooty and sweep and mum are going together, you must be thrilled
> 
> And super that 3 are going to forum members .....well, one being you   i can't wait to see the variants grow big and fluffy ! :001_tt1:
> 
> I'd love a variant .....a black one ....wow, how yummy would that be !!


Oh yes it would be a beauty the closest I can think of is colliemerles chocolate variant


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Cats cats cats said:


> Oh how lovely that sooty and sweep and mum are going together, you must be thrilled
> 
> And super that 3 are going to forum members .....well, one being you   i can't wait to see the variants grow big and fluffy ! :001_tt1:
> 
> I'd love a variant .....a black one ....wow, how yummy would that be !!


WLBSH variants are yummy... One nearly slipped into my handbag ... But she was keeping an eye on me.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

jill3 said:


> Thanks Cosmills. x
> Good Luck with Rosie hope she like's her Stud


I hope she does Jill... Will get some lovely colours in cp & selfs ... I can recommend WLBSH you will not go far wrong with her furbabies


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> I hope she does Jill... Will get some lovely colours in cp & selfs ... I can recommend WLBSH you will not go far wrong with her furbabies


Awww,how was your drive back cm.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Awww,how was your drive back cm.


Accident on the motorway so an hour delay ... Grrrrrrr. But it was lovely to see you the kids and if course my beautiful sapphire ... Very happy with her


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Accident on the motorway so an hour delay ... Grrrrrrr. But it was lovely to see you the kids and if course my beautiful sapphire ... Very happy with her


Im glad you were happy with her she is getting a little bugger you know 
A guy just called from London for peaches,i had to tell him she is spoken for lovely guy though.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Im glad you were happy with her she is getting a little bugger you know
> A guy just called from London for peaches,i had to tell him she is spoken for lovely guy though.


Not the angelic princess of mine , surely not ... Wot has she done lol


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Not the angelic princess of mine , surely not ... Wot has she done lol


Climbed my back while I was sitting feeding them oooouch!


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Cats cats cats said:


> Oooh who is having the black beauty ? Is it someone on here ? I hope so , I'd love to see him grow up :001_tt1:
> 
> I agree re HCM , although it is very prevalent in coonies and ragdolls, I don't think it is so much so in BSH . It's super to know that if it ever became so, you would scan  if I ever wanted a BSH ( well, I already do but you know what I mean  ) I'd be contacting you first without doubt  for a black one !!


Actually it is. I mean, I personally know of BSHs who died/are suffering from HCM (autopsy/echocardiography) whereas I do not personally know BSHs who've died of PKD just yet (maybe due to gene testing). The problem with HCM is that it's a sneaky, sneaky thing. PKD rears its ugly head early on, while HCM is a quiet thing which can happen quite suddenly and at an older age (so it is not as dramatic as cats dropping dead at 2 years old although there are indeed BSH cats who die at 1+ from HCM).

Anyway, ultimately it's a breeder's choice to test (and for kitten buyers to require tests- where there's a demand, there is a supply). I imagine that in a few years, HCM testing will be quite common in the UK too. For now, specialists who can do the test are relatively rare and testing is expensive. I travel an hour for mine but here, it's only 100-150 euro. I have heard that it can be 300 pounds in the UK so I believe, cost is a major factor of the reason why this test is not really accepted in the UK at the moment.

Also, I think because if people test, it will open a can of worms. I can imagine a lot of breeders are scared. Heck, I am too and live in fear of this happening to me. Because of the late onset, these cats would already have had kittens/grand kittens/etc. Imagine finding out at age 8? Then the ethical part comes into question: Do you inform the kitten owners? Some might be unhappy/angry. Do you offer to take the kitten back? Do you pay for its medical bills (if found to have HCM)? Do you provide a refund? What are the laws regarding these things?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

pipje said:


> Actually it is. I mean, I personally know of BSHs who died/are suffering from HCM (autopsy/echocardiography) whereas I do not personally know BSHs who've died of PKD just yet (maybe due to gene testing). The problem with HCM is that it's a sneaky, sneaky thing. PKD rears its ugly head early on, while HCM is a quiet thing which can happen quite suddenly and at an older age (so it is not as dramatic as cats dropping dead at 2 years old although there are indeed BSH cats who die at 1+ from HCM).
> 
> Anyway, ultimately it's a breeder's choice to test (and for kitten buyers to require tests- where there's a demand, there is a supply). I imagine that in a few years, HCM testing will be quite common in the UK too. For now, specialists who can do the test are relatively rare and testing is expensive. I travel an hour for mine but here, it's only 100-150 euro. I have heard that it can be 300 pounds in the UK so I believe, cost is a major factor of the reason why this test is not really accepted in the UK at the moment.
> 
> Also, I think because if people test, it will open a can of worms. I can imagine a lot of breeders are scared. Heck, I am too and live in fear of this happening to me. Because of the late onset, these cats would already have had kittens/grand kittens/etc. Imagine finding out at age 8? Then the ethical part comes into question: Do you inform the kitten owners? Some might be unhappy/angry. Do you offer to take the kitten back? Do you pay for its medical bills (if found to have HCM)? Do you provide a refund? What are the laws regarding these things?


Personally am not scared of knowing the truth.. Unfortunately we cannot look into the future with things like this ... There is not a lot you can do if you find out 8 years down the line ... I don't think it's so much the cost , Christ I have spent a fortune on testing mine and I know of other breeders have done the same ... HCM is not a high problem in the UK among this breed. Ethical ... It's only unethical if you know of problem before hand ... If and when a full test comes out I will definitely use it


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Climbed my back while I was sitting feeding them oooouch!


She loves you .... But she should have been eating tut tut ... Naughty puss


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Personally am not scared of knowing the truth.. Unfortunately we cannot look into the future with things like this ... There is not a lot you can do if you find out 8 years down the line ... I don't think it's so much the cost , Christ I have spent a fortune on testing mine and I know of other breeders have done the same ... HCM is not a high problem in the UK among this breed. Ethical ... It's only unethical if you know of problem before hand ... If and when a full test comes out I will definitely use it


Well, I still think that if one really believes in the 'best' of the breed and since cost is not an issue, then why not test anyway?

HYPERTROPHIC CARDIOMYOPATHY BSH
PawPeds
http://www.vetontheweb.co.uk/pet-clinic-detail.asp?id=605
Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy | Langford Veterinary Services
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) in cats

Fabcats has the full list of recognised testing places in the UK (looks like there're lots).

Also, even if a company develops a HCM genetic test for BSHs (I believe there is already a test for HCM2 which can be used for BSHs but the test is not reliable), it only identifies one gene. HCM can be caused by multiple genes so it's not conclusive either. Therefore, the only way you can sort of keep an eye on things is an echocardiography.

Ultimately your decision but I just wouldn't be surprised if HCM testing becomes an expected thing for BSHs in the UK in a few years. Change management, always takes time!

And about the ethical part: that ( "Ethical ... It's only unethical if you know of problem before hand ..") is EXACTLY what I mean. If you don't know, you're ethically safe so maybe that's why some people DON'T want to know


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

pipje said:


> Actually it is. I mean, I personally know of BSHs who died/are suffering from HCM (autopsy/echocardiography) whereas I do not personally know BSHs who've died of PKD just yet (maybe due to gene testing). The problem with HCM is that it's a sneaky, sneaky thing. PKD rears its ugly head early on, while HCM is a quiet thing which can happen quite suddenly and at an older age (so it is not as dramatic as cats dropping dead at 2 years old although there are indeed BSH cats who die at 1+ from HCM).
> 
> Anyway, ultimately it's a breeder's choice to test (and for kitten buyers to require tests- where there's a demand, there is a supply). I imagine that in a few years, HCM testing will be quite common in the UK too. For now, specialists who can do the test are relatively rare and testing is expensive. I travel an hour for mine but here, it's only 100-150 euro. I have heard that it can be 300 pounds in the UK so I believe, cost is a major factor of the reason why this test is not really accepted in the UK at the moment.
> 
> Also, I think because if people test, it will open a can of worms. I can imagine a lot of breeders are scared. Heck, I am too and live in fear of this happening to me. Because of the late onset, these cats would already have had kittens/grand kittens/etc. Imagine finding out at age 8? Then the ethical part comes into question: Do you inform the kitten owners? Some might be unhappy/angry. Do you offer to take the kitten back? Do you pay for its medical bills (if found to have HCM)? Do you provide a refund? What are the laws regarding these things?


Sorry I probably did not explain myself well ..... I meant that HCM in BSH is not *AS* common as in coonies and ragdolls .

I have a persian with HCM and so did my vet , but that doesn't mean that HCM is prevalent in the breed , we are just very unlucky. Any breed can develop HCM of course . We have a member on here with a moggy that has HCM but that doesn't mean that HCM is common in moggies.

In coonies and ragdolls however it is known to be *extremely* common and why ethical breeders test for it 

Where should breeders draw the line with regards to testing , should they all test for every single disease, even those that are not that common in their breed ?

As stated, even a scan is no guarantee as breeding cats may scan clear year after year .....until they don't 

I would love another persian one day but doubt I'd find a breeder who scans for HCM. I would however only buy from a PKD negative breeder as that's very common in the persian sadly and so I would expect it to be tested for.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

pipje said:


> Well, I still think that if one really believes in the 'best' of the breed and since cost is not an issue, then why not test anyway?
> 
> HYPERTROPHIC CARDIOMYOPATHY BSH
> PawPeds
> ...


At this moment in time I don't feel the need to test ... Until it is a high factor in the UK ... Currently I think there are more things to worry about without adding to it ... Yes I could test every year for the next 10 years and my cat could have HCM in the final year .. So wot has been achieved ... Nothing... I cannot turn the clock back... She has had her young .


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Maybe not AS common but BSHs are listed as a breed susceptible to HCM on many websites about feline HCM.

Eg.

i) HYPERTROPHIC CARDIOMYOPATHY BSH (Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) is the commonest form of heart disease in cats and British shorthaired cats (BSH) are predisposed to developing the disease (Putcuyps et al 2003, Kittleson 2009, Meurs et al 2009, Meurs 2010).

ii) Vet On The Web (HCM is an inheritable condition in Maine Coon, Ragdolls and British Shorthair cats)

iii) Pawpeds (Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM)	Cat	Maine Coon
Siberian (incl. Neva Masquerade)
Norwegian Forest Cat
British Shorthair
Bengal
Cornish Rex
Devon Rex
Ragdoll
Sphynx_

iv) Langford (There is currently no genetic test for HCM in British Shorthairs. The only way to diagnose HCM in British Shorthairs is by echocardiography. We offer this service at our Feline Centre, and we are collecting genetic material from all cats that are scanned in order to help find any genetic mutations and produce a genetic test.)

v) Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy in Cats (Maine Coon Cats, Ragdolls, British Shorthairs, American Shorthairs, and Devon Rexes show a familial inheritance).

vi) The Big Hearts Fund | Information | Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a genetically inherited disease. It has been found to have familial inheritance in Maine Coons, Ragdolls, British Shorthairs, American Shorthairs, and Devon Rexes (Eldredge, et. al., 2008)

etc.etc.etc.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> At this moment in time I don't feel the need to test ... Until it is a high factor in the UK ... Currently I think there are more things to worry about without adding to it ... Yes I could test every year for the next 10 years and my cat could have HCM in the final year .. So wot has been achieved ... Nothing... I cannot turn the clock back... She has had her young .


Correct, it is very complicated but then yeah, you can see it in a short-term way (only that your cat had kittens, too late). However, one could argue that you could then inform breeders who bought a breeding kitten for you or perhaps if you have kittens/grandkitties from your cat which are used for breeding, you can stop thta line too. Difficult? YES. I am certainly no expert and of course I know it's easy to talk but a whole lot harder doing what should be done when the time arrives. That's why I say it's also an ethical issue.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

pipje said:


> Maybe not AS common but BSHs are listed as a breed susceptible to HCM on many websites about feline HCM.
> 
> Eg.
> 
> ...


That doesn't prove the problem is a big enough problem and other than the op iv not heard of any other cat with this.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Not really HCM related but I found this online and thought it's really useful for BSH breeders. UK breeders might be familiar with it though (I believe it's by GCCF):

http://britishshorthairbac.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/breeding-policy_sep12.pdf (Page 25 has a short paragraph on HCM in BSHs)

Well, a few years ago, no one tested for HCM in The Netherlands either. It's only now that HCM testing is an expected test. Back in 2005/2006, it was still only a 'very nice to have'.

Edited to add: The GCCF document states that "Unfortunately,at the moment testing in the British is limited to scanning with ultrasound, which can be unpleasant for the animal and expensive". In regards to the unpleasant for the animal part, it's a whole lot less unpleasant than drawing blood for the FIV/FeLV test in my opinion! All they do is shave a small area and scan.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> That doesn't prove the problem is a big enough problem and other than the op iv not heard of any other cat with this.


As I said, ultimately your choice to test or not I am only saying that it is something I prefer to do and it is a test which is expected for BSHs here (not an official requirement like FIV and FeLV but is like the PKD test so all normal or good catteries will always state "tested for FIV, FeLV, HCM and PKD") in The Netherlands. I also think that this will be the case in the UK in a few years.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

pipje said:


> Not really HCM related but I found this online and thought it's really useful for BSH breeders. UK breeders might be familiar with it though (I believe it's by GCCF):
> 
> http://britishshorthairbac.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/breeding-policy_sep12.pdf (Page 25 has a short paragraph on HCM in BSHs)
> 
> Well, a few years ago, no one tested for HCM in The Netherlands either. It's only now that HCM testing is an expected test. Back in 2005/2006, it was still only a 'very nice to have'.


The GCCF section on genetic anomalies states that the majority of HCM is genetic. Unfortunately, at the moment testing in the British is limited to scanning with ultrasound, which can be unpleasant for the animal and expensive. Amongst British Breeders in Europe, annual HCM tests have become routine, but it has not yet become custom and practice for British Breeders here in the UK. Our current recommendation is that any breeder with reason to suspect an inherited HCM condition in any of their cats, should seek a scan and if the animal is affected remove him or her from the breeding population. Any progeny should also be scanned and monitored.

Reading that their saying the only real need to test is if you have a known problem.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

pipje said:


> Correct, it is very complicated but then yeah, you can see it in a short-term way (only that your cat had kittens, too late). However, one could argue that you could then inform breeders who bought a breeding kitten for you or perhaps if you have kittens/grandkitties from your cat which are used for breeding, you can stop thta line too. Difficult? YES. I am certainly no expert and of course I know it's easy to talk but a whole lot harder doing what should be done when the time arrives. That's why I say it's also an ethical issue.


I totally understand we're you are coming from.. It is complicated like many other things ... There is no guarantees in life , we can test and test and still it can have a neg outcome ... I don't know wot the answer is .. As both DNA and scans are not 100% accurate .. Maybe in years to come there will be


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

pipje said:


> As I said, ultimately your choice to test or not I am only saying that it is something I prefer to do and it is a test which is expected for BSHs here (not an official requirement like FIV and FeLV but is like the PKD test so all normal or good catteries will always state "tested for FIV, FeLV, HCM and PKD") in The Netherlands. I also think that this will be the case in the UK in a few years.


I hear what your saying but the way I see this is if HCM is not considered to be a problem here in the uk with bsh why waste £300 per cat per year testing.

When/if things change im sure the scan would become cheaper.

I feel their is enough to test for without adding tests that arnt really needed.

However if there was suddenly a change in the amount of brits confirmed to have HCM I would quickly change my view.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> The GCCF section on genetic anomalies states that the majority of HCM is genetic. Unfortunately, at the moment testing in the British is limited to scanning with ultrasound, which can be unpleasant for the animal and expensive. Amongst British Breeders in Europe, annual HCM tests have become routine, but it has not yet become custom and practice for British Breeders here in the UK. Our current recommendation is that any breeder with reason to suspect an inherited HCM condition in any of their cats, should seek a scan and if the animal is affected remove him or her from the breeding population. Any progeny should also be scanned and monitored.
> 
> Reading that their saying the only real need to test is if you have a known problem.


Yes. Also reading the paragraph: "Amongst British Breeders in Europe, annual HCM tests have become routine, but it has *not yet* become custom and practice for British Breeders here in the UK". HCM is dominant so.....

Look, I am not bashing UK breeders or something (this is in NO WAY about that and I don't think ANYONE here is a bad breeder) but well, if you think logically, BSHs originate from Britain so.. where does the gene come from then?


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> I hear what your saying but the way I see this is if HCM is not considered to be a problem here in the uk with bsh why waste £300 per cat per year testing.
> 
> When/if things change im sure the scan would become cheaper.
> 
> ...


I agree. That's why I say it's probably because of the cost. The cost of the PKD test is a joke in comparison to HCM (PKD-DNA is a one-time 30 pound fee. HCM screening is 300 pounds per nest= once per year)!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

pipje said:


> Yes. Also reading the paragraph: "Amongst British Breeders in Europe, annual HCM tests have become routine, but it has *not yet* become custom and practice for British Breeders here in the UK". HCM is dominant so.....
> 
> Look, I am not bashing UK breeders or something (this is in NO WAY about that and I don't think ANYONE here is a bad breeder) but well, if you think logically, BSHs originate from Britain so.. where does the gene come from then?


I don't think that means the problem started here wheres the proof of that its also likely that once exported they were outcross with other breeds to widen the gene pool I don't know really but that's also possible,i don't know how big of a problem you have with it over your way.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> I don't think that means the problem started here wheres the proof of that its also likely that once exported they were outcross with other breeds to widen the gene pool I don't know really but that's also possible,i don't know how big of a problem you have with it over your way.


Just read something ... Quickly as DD is on my arm ... Males have a lot higher risk than females ... 20% males 2.3 % females

That's Europe data


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> I hear what your saying but the way I see this is if HCM is not considered to be a problem here in the uk with bsh why waste £300 per cat per year testing.
> 
> When/if things change im sure the scan would become cheaper.
> 
> ...





we love bsh's said:


> I don't think that means the problem started here wheres the proof of that its also likely that once exported they were outcross with other breeds to widen the gene pool I don't know really but that's also possible,i don't know how big of a problem you have with it over your way.


I think there are more cats without HCM than with HCM here but it's a big enough problem sure. One of my kitten buyers lost their BSH to HCM (at a young age, she was 1.5 and was even at the vet a week before for a check-up and the vet said her heart sounded fine) and I have certainly heard of cats with HCM (people I don't know personally. Some catteries try to be ethical and open about it if a cat tested positive but of course, most will hide it). I will try to find out more information on this (whether HCM is commonly tested here due to outcrosses or something). I think it's somewhat unlikely, since if outcrossed, it was to Persians and Persians aren't even on the list of breeds sensitive to HCM (but this is how we got PKD )

There is a database (mostly Dutch cats but is slowly widening its range and is totally voluntary) for HCM. You send the test results of your cat and they will publish it (negative/positive/specialist/date/parents/etc.). The address is : hcmfoundation.com


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

pipje said:


> I think there are more cats without HCM than with HCM here but it's a big enough problem sure. One of my kitten buyers lost their BSH to HCM (at a young age, she was 1.5 and was even at the vet a week before for a check-up and the vet said her heart sounded fine) and I have certainly heard of cats with HCM (people I don't know personally. Some catteries try to be ethical and open about it if a cat tested positive but of course, most will hide it). I will try to find out more information on this (whether HCM is commonly tested here due to outcrosses or something). I think it's somewhat unlikely, since if outcrossed, it was to Persians and Persians aren't even on the list of breeds sensitive to HCM (but this is how we got PKD )
> 
> There is a database (mostly Dutch cats but is slowly widening its range and is totally voluntary) for HCM. You send the test results of your cat and they will publish it (negative/positive/specialist/date/parents/etc.). The address is : hcmfoundation.com
> 
> Edited to add: hcmfoundation.com doesn't have an English version The old website is: hcmtest.com (has an English version). They changed it due to some kind of mini internal argument (apparently someone was erasing the positive results).


Could it be that the imported ones were and that they were the foundation of your british lines meaning only a small gene pool to start with and the foundation cats were not of full health meaning a lot of hcm genetically passed on in your country?


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> Could it be that the imported ones were and that they were the foundation of your british lines meaning only a small gene pool to start with and the foundation cats were not of full health meaning a lot of hcm genetically passed on in your country?


I shall try to find out. Lots of catteries import cats from the UK (even now) so I doubt it's due to a small gene pool. I suspect it's because Dutch people are quite open about these things (I'm saying this as a non-Dutch person), so it seems like it's more common here (because people report, small country where even really old people use the internet regularly etc.) but is actually the same everywhere. I don't know for sure so I will ask someone who is an expert on these things and report to you guys (if you're interested)


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

It's not _yet_ common here in Finland either to test for HCM. I don't know any BSHs here that would have it or died because of it. Some breeders do test, I know of one, but she also tests for HD, patellar luxation and microsporum canis (and the obvious ones, PKD, FeLV, FIV), so she tests lots of other stuff too.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Cosmills said:


> Personally am not scared of knowing the truth.. Unfortunately we cannot look into the future with things like this ... There is not a lot you can do if you find out 8 years down the line ... I don't think it's so much the cost , Christ I have spent a fortune on testing mine and I know of other breeders have done the same ... HCM is not a high problem in the UK among this breed. Ethical ... It's only unethical if you know of problem before hand ... If and when a full test comes out I will definitely use it


Sorry have to disagree - it is a recognised issue in British Shorthairs in the UK. Some lines are riddled with it and I am talking well known popular lines. Good British breeders do their research into pedigrees - certain lines are a higher risk. I researched my British girl's pedigree thoroughly and that of the potential stud boy.

If I had suspect Brit lines in my Selkirks I would scan. Touch wood my hours of research checking out the pedigrees has paid off and to my knowledge no heart issues in my lines but it is a recognised problem in British Shorthairs and should not be dismissed just because there is no gene test.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Cats cats cats said:


> Where should breeders draw the line with regards to testing , should they all test for every single disease, even those that are not that common in their breed ?


With my breed we test for things coming from Siamese and Abyssinians, there have been no positive results but breeders around the world have chosen to be pro-active and ensure this never becomes an issue within the breed.

If I heard of any other issues especially within the lines I've worked with, I wouldn't hesitate to test my cats. HCM scanning is expensive where I live, $600-$800 per cat, but I'd consider that a small price to pay for the good of the breed.

HCM needs more research, I know a lot of Bengal breeders who scan and there's an 8 year old boy who continues to scan clear yet 11 of his 12 offspring (to different unrelated girls) have HCM. He's neutered but still scanned yearly. 
There could be other cases like that, but it doesn't mean that Bengal breeders just don't scan.

I work with a rare breed, and it's easy to connect and share information around the world, I'm sure other breeds with much larger numbers would have a harder time with that info getting through.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I've emailed someone from pawpeds and she states that bshs from uk have as much hcm as other British shorthairs across the world. the reasonwhy testing is not common there is due to the high costs.

so sounds like it is also a case of lack of awareness


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

pipje said:


> I've emailed someone from pawpeds and she states that bshs from uk have as much hcm as other British shorthairs across the world. the reasonwhy testing is not common there is due to the high costs.
> 
> so sounds like it is also a case of lack of awareness


Totally agree UK is no worse no better - it is there and good breeders are aware of it and work hard to minimise risks.


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