# Border Collie Puppy Problem



## borderjackleospringer (Aug 20, 2008)

Hello

In June we got a Border Collie puppy from a reliable breeder (she breeds champion dogs and has had Border Collies all her life - she realy knows them!). The puppy is now 4 months old. All the time that she was "house-bound" ie. hadn't had her vaccinations, she was wonderful and sociable with anyone who came in the house and any vaccinated dogs that she met (ours, friends ect.). However the problem started soon after she first started going out in public - she barks and snaps and growls at literally *everything*person or dog that she sees. Her ears go flat and her barking is the threatening aggresive type, not playful. She is perfectly friendly with the 4 people in our household (two adults, two daughters) and our other 3 dogs (a leonburger, springer and jack russel - all good natured and have never had aggression problems or anything). When the puppy tries to attack other dogs, these dogs don't try to attack her back or bark back at her - they just walk on and ignore her. We have been told by lots of people that Border Collies are generally hard work and snappy anyway, but shouldn't be this aggresive this young. The puppy is actually owned by our youngest daughter who is 11 - she trained her well and wants to do agility with her (it's been her life-long dream). We did think that maybe the puppy was protecting our daughter, but soon realised that the aggresion and attacking happens even when our daughter isn't around. Another person suggested that it might be some form of jelousy. We have met up with the breeder a few times, and the puppy has gone for her too, and she knows how to handle Border Collies better than anyone we know! We have tryed taking the puppy out everywhere to get it used to people and other dogs, but as soon as she sees someone she launches herself at them, barking and snapping and growling. She has bitten a few people already (thankfully they were dog people and honestly didn't mind), but we dont know what we'll do when she bites someone who does mind. We're at a complete loss at what to do, we've bought hundreds of puppy help book and border collie books and gone to training classes and everything, but nothing seems to be changing her. The last thing we want to do is have to get rid of her.

Does anyone have any ideas or experienced this before?

Ella


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

i know people are not gonna like this.

i would put a choke chain on her and when she does the snapping give her a good hard yank and a very load NO.
or i would even use a lemon spray collar.

our tess used to be quite snappy she got the treatment and is a lot better but being a collie, she still on the odd times snaps at my other dogs so gets and quick slap on these odd times.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Dont do anything until you have spoken to a good reweard based behaviourist preferably one with a good stooge dog. Anything you do may have adverse effects and could make the situation worse. I would go with slow introductions to strange people and then to strange dogs, preferably a stooge as these are better at comunicating with dogs in general and will ignore her bad behaviours which will calm her down. Sorry I cant be much help but with out seeing it myself, I cant really provide much info for you. A good behaviourist in your area should be able to help tho.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I wouldnt say all border collies are hard work and snappy ... Toffee definately isnt and neither was my Bud

as for your problem it could be that she's scared and its coming out as aggression 

I def wouldnt use choke chains or sprays on her though , you dont want a dog that is only doing what you say through fear of punishment 
Plus she is way too young for such harsh treatment
Positive training is the way to go 

do you maybe have a friend (she doesnt know) that you could, over a period of time , introduce her to only outside ?


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

borderjackleospringer said:


> Hello
> 
> In June we got a Border Collie puppy from a reliable breeder (she breeds champion dogs and has had Border Collies all her life - she realy knows them!). The puppy is now 4 months old. All the time that she was "house-bound" ie. hadn't had her vaccinations, she was wonderful and sociable with anyone who came in the house and any vaccinated dogs that she met (ours, friends ect.). However the problem started soon after she first started going out in public - she barks and snaps and growls at literally *everything*person or dog that she sees. Her ears go flat and her barking is the threatening aggresive type, not playful. She is perfectly friendly with the 4 people in our household (two adults, two daughters) and our other 3 dogs (a leonburger, springer and jack russel - all good natured and have never had aggression problems or anything). When the puppy tries to attack other dogs, these dogs don't try to attack her back or bark back at her - they just walk on and ignore her. We have been told by lots of people that Border Collies are generally hard work and snappy anyway, but shouldn't be this aggresive this young. The puppy is actually owned by our youngest daughter who is 11 - she trained her well and wants to do agility with her (it's been her life-long dream). We did think that maybe the puppy was protecting our daughter, but soon realised that the aggresion and attacking happens even when our daughter isn't around. Another person suggested that it might be some form of jelousy. We have met up with the breeder a few times, and the puppy has gone for her too, and she knows how to handle Border Collies better than anyone we know! We have tryed taking the puppy out everywhere to get it used to people and other dogs, but as soon as she sees someone she launches herself at them, barking and snapping and growling. She has bitten a few people already (thankfully they were dog people and honestly didn't mind), but we dont know what we'll do when she bites someone who does mind. We're at a complete loss at what to do, we've bought hundreds of puppy help book and border collie books and gone to training classes and everything, but nothing seems to be changing her. The last thing we want to do is have to get rid of her.
> 
> ...


Hi Ella,

It sounds like your puppy is very stressed with the outside world, but without seeing her for myself I can't be sure, and I'm in Cyprus! Would it be possible for you to seek the professional advice of a behaviourist?

Also you should sit down with the breeder and ask her what your puppy was like with her littermates.

At what age did you pick her up from the breeder, and when did you start socializing her, and when did you first start walking her outside?

I'm sorry to have to say that I don't think your 11yr old daughter should be in charge of the training, she should be included of course, but an adult should be in charge.

A choke chain is not advised as it will only add to her stress. There is a reason for her behaviour and this needs to be addressed.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2008)

Who's the breeder?


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## borderjackleospringer (Aug 20, 2008)

Hello
Thank you to everyone who has replied.

We first got her outside socialising as soon as her last vaccine - so at 10 weeks. However, she had met other friendly dogs before that (our friends dogs who we know well). Earlier today we tried taking her out with one person and the rest of us walking around and meeting up with her to see her reaction to someone outside who she actually knew. For all of us she barked furiously and was quite aggressive, but when we got to about 3m away from her she recognised us and turned friendly and happy to see us. However, whenever someone came along who she didn't know, she went back to her earlier behavior 

We were told to try out a tin can filled with beads to shake above her head whenever this happened, but she ignored it, wasn't frightned of it at all. Our neighbour thinks that we should try a nicer approach to her behaviour - he suggested that when she barked and attaced people so stand infront of her and look her in the eyes or stroke her calmly or something, but we've had so much mixed advice that we don't know what path to take.

I am the "alpha male" of the other three dogs, but not to the Border Collie, and I realise now that the puppy's aggression may be something to do with being confused that the other three dogs see me as their leader and she thinks that she has to see my daughter as the leader. How can I change her view of an 11 year old being the leader and make her follow the other dogs? She never looks any of us in the eye so its dificult to get her attention.

Ella


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## hari1 (Aug 10, 2008)

hello is she being walked with your other dogs and if so what is their reaction? I have threedogs my youngest a fifteen month old male rottweiler he has learnt a hell of a lot from my two oldies about the right and wrong way to behave and looks up to them to show the way so as to speak. Im wondering if your pup hasnt made that bond with your other dogs. I would also like to add that I do take them out individially as well for play and training sessions.I have to agree also that an eleven year old is not mature enough to be in charge and if I was you I would find a well recommended behaviourist to come out and do an assesment.Why I say come to your house is as you have a multi-pet household the behaviourist would need to see the whole picture.Good luck let us know what happens.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

My parents have mainly had border collies.

I can only say what I would and have done: -

1. They need stimulation, as they soon get bored.

2. Join a puppy class group, your vet will probably know a local dog training centre.

3. I wouldn't advise a choke chain our border collies have been long coated and their fur will get caught but there is an alternative check collar.

I used to stand still and make my dog wait until whatever is bothering him has passed. Talking and reassuring him. Whether it be another dog, vehicle, person jogging or cycling.

Border Collies as you probably know have a strong working drive and will herd anything.


Sue


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## borderjackleospringer (Aug 20, 2008)

Thank you

Yes, she started this behaviour as soon as she was out in public at 10 weeks. 

I'm about to go out and walk down the road with her - i'll try ignoring her and being calm when her aggressive behavoir sets in.

When we walk her with our other dogs they take no notice when she barks at people and other dogs around - the other dogs also dont seem bothered by it.

Ella


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

i dont want to cause any worry but if she didnt recognise you from further then three meters away could she have difficulty seeing. id take her to a vet just in case. This would explain why she may be funny around strangers, particually outside.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> i dont want to cause any worry but if she didnt recognise you from further then three meters away could she have difficulty seeing. id take her to a vet just in case. This would explain why she may be funny around strangers, particually outside.


Funnily enough I was thinking that while I was in the bath.


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## codybordercollie (May 4, 2009)

hi ella
i am having exactly the same problem as you ,i have saught help from a good dog club ,we are having one to one training at the cost of 50 pounds an hour ,also he is going to the dog creche there at a cost of ten pounds an hour to help him socialize ,this is really expensive but we were worried if we didnt get it right he would land up getting him put down and my son would be heartbroken 
im quite happy to pass on the training we are doing with the advice ,at least you can try it and it wont cost asit is costing us an arm and a leg but i feel it is worth it as we have waited ten years for a dog and we are heartbroken when you hear people say he is a vicious dog and vets saying it runs in the u blood you may have to put him down etc 

our dog is 27 weeks old ,has nipped a couple of people ,learches forward at anything that moves but is ok in the house 
the first session we had was to take him of all the dog food ,treats and not allow our food,we have a low protien food and we have to make him work for his food on his walks for a distraction and because its good for border collies to work 
secondly cody would pull on the lead and learch at people ,we since have been told to get a gentle leader and he is much more under control 
we also are not allowing him on furniture ,or upstairs and he has the utility room 
the basis of training is to show you are the leader of the pack and he is at the bottom also that playing searching games to mentally tire him out rather than phisical training 
like you i want a loving dog but i hope i acheive it as we are working so hard with him ,any more advice feel free to email me 

all the best amanda


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> *Dont do anything until you have spoken to a good reweard based behaviourist preferably one with a good stooge dog. Anything you do may have adverse effects and could make the situation worse. *I would go with slow introductions to strange people and then to strange dogs, preferably a stooge as these are better at comunicating with dogs in general and will ignore her bad behaviours which will calm her down. Sorry I cant be much help but with out seeing it myself, I cant really provide much info for you. *A good behaviourist in your area should be able to help tho*.


completely agree with you!
what you are seeing as "aggressive" behaviour could well actually be a confused herding bahviour. Please get in contact with a behaviourist and I wouldn't start using choke chains or spray collars as as we don't know that the problem is this could well make it worse.

I would advice APDT behaviourists or APBC behaviourists:

Check out your nearest behaviourist on their websites:

The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

Good luck and let us know how you get on


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

borderjackleospringer said:


> Earlier today we tried taking her out with one person and the rest of us walking around and meeting up with her to see her reaction to someone outside who she actually knew. For all of us she barked furiously and was quite aggressive, but when we got to about 3m away from her she recognised us and turned friendly and happy to see us. However, whenever someone came along who she didn't know, she went back to her earlier behavior


Hi,

Collies have very very very keen eyesight and can spot things from miles off so for your dog to only recognise it is you from only 3m away is a bit strange. They also have an above average sense of smell in the dog world so it may be worth performing the test again but approaching the dog from an upwind direction so that your scent gets to the dog before you are 3m away. If there is no barking from an upwind approach athen re-run the tests from a down wind approach so your scent is nowhere near the dog and see if the barking continues. If it does continue then perhaps the dog's eyesight is not that great and in that it may not be able to distinguish shapes, silouettes or faces all that good. This could be the reason for the behaviour as the dog is unsure of what is what by sight so feels the need to set out a barrier immediately.

When you throw toys for the dog onto grass and hold the dog back from a immediately setting off, are it's eye's fixed ont he spot where the toy landed? Does it go straight to where the toy landed? Does the dog use it's nose to search for the toy?

What is the dog's recall like? If it is a good can you lay down in the grass but have your head above the grassline so that you don't project a standing sillouette against the skyline and call the dog over? Again what sense does it use to find you?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

The OP hasnt logged onto the forum for over 7 months.


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## borderjackleospringer (Aug 20, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your advice. We tried just about everything (behaviour classes and special trainers) but in the end we took the puppy back to the breeder. It turned out that another puppy of the same litter was aggressive also, and had been returned, so we all think it was genetic. The breeder has said that they are both a bit better as they have a lot of land for the dogs to run around on, so they don't have to come across people often. Acting as quite a good guard dog as well. I'm glad we decided to take her to the breeder, as she must be happier now and less stressed.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Just wondering.... Do people agree that a dog's behaviour is genetics or are problems which have not been dealt with correctly?

This is not a dig at the OP, I am just interested in people's opinions. x


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## Guest (May 5, 2009)

Sounds to me as if your pupster has missed some vital socializing! I would go back to basics and try to introduce her to everything as though she were just 8 weeks old, you need to re-assure her and build her confidence, this is going to take time and patience, reward using treats, 
For example when passing another dog say over and over, leave, leave, leave, and when she does reward her, you may have to try this several times before she gets it right, the more she is in contact with others the better.

I would resort in using a spay corrector should all other attempts to correct the issues fail.

Also enroling in a puppy class may help
DT


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