# Countryfile cat special



## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

Well it wasn't all that special the programe demonised cats the way the media demonise staffies.

Apart from the way they made cats look I think the wild life rescues raised some excellent points.

Is it time the law got tough on cat owners?


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Yes. I don't understand why the law is different for cats anyway. You chose to get the cat, you should be responsible for its behaviour 24/7. Not a popular view but it my feelings on it.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

I think the laws should be tough. I have all my cats neutered and am sick of the hassle my cats get from Toms. Also they come into my house when we have the dryer on and spray the kitchen.

My neighbours brother moved in next door for a while with three un neutred male cats. They attacked three of my cats over a four day period and each cat had to go to the vets as the cat bites we really bad. One cat was screaming so much he couldn't be exmained after a few days I finally managed to see the bites. He had three puncture wounds in his belly.

I originally thought after taking the thrid cat to the vet that it was my cats must have had a big fight until Fats went out Sunday monring and came back within 10 minutes. He had skin ripped from above his eye and was limping. By the end of the day his arm had swelled up.

When he allowed vet to examine he had three really deep puncture wounds in this arm. I've never seen anything like this before in cat fights. There's normally one of two claw marks or one puncture wound but to have three bites and they were REALLY deep ones. These were really visous attacks.

If someones dog had inflicted the same sort of wounds on another dog the owner would be prosecuted. 

Think it cost me around £140 in vet bills in just five days as I took each in seperatly cause the attacks were on different days. The vets were nice and gave me a disscount one of the cat though.

I'm not really bothered about the money but more on the effect it had on my cats. Two of them became really nevrous and Jessy even refused to leave the house without me being there with him for a few months.

Sorry this reply turned into a bit of a rant.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

munchkinpie said:


> Yes. I don't understand why the law is different for cats anyway. You chose to get the cat, you should be responsible for its behaviour 24/7. Not a popular view but it my feelings on it.


I'm share your opinion, athough I do feel a bit hypocritical at the moment as we've taken a stray under our wing while we try to find him a home.

.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Oh by the way, what is that funky looking white feathered thing in your signiture? I checked your members page a few weeks back and coulnd't see any more photos.

It's kinda been bugging me as to what it is?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Is it time the law got tough on cat owners?


Why? What've we done???


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

I think it's a silkie chicken


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Ah right, thanks.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Here we go again, attack the owners of free roaming cats... I do wish people would not compare a cats behaviour to a dogs. They are a completely different species.
A dog is a pack animal and is led by his 'human' and therefore is generally happy to stay close to his owner.A cat is a solitary animal and does not look for leadership from anyone.They tend to have a territory that they like to defend.They also hunt, yes its not nice but if it offends you so much, its simple don't have a cat! They are born killers and whether you let them out or not they have a strong urge to kill, even if its only a Daddy long legs they will kill it given the chance.
The law recognises the difference between a cat and a dog and therefore does not try to lump them in the same category.
I do not attack you prowl for having an indoor cat, I respect your choice.So please don't start thinly veiled critical threads of people who allow their cats to roam. Which by the way is the majority of the British cat owning public, even if it is not majority on here..


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## Puddycat (Aug 28, 2011)

Marycat said:


> Here we go again, attack the owners of free roaming cats... I do wish people would not compare a cats behaviour to a dogs. They are a completely different species.
> A dog is a pack animal and is led by his 'human' and therefore is generally happy to stay close to his owner.A cat is a solitary animal and does not look for leadership from anyone.They tend to have a territory that they like to defend.They also hunt, yes its not nice but if it offends you so much, its simple don't have a cat! They are born killers and whether you let them out or not they have a strong urge to kill, even if its only a Daddy long legs they will kill it given the chance.
> The law recognises the difference between a cat and a dog and therefore does not try to lump them in the same category.
> I do not attack you prowl for having an indoor cat, I respect your choice.So please don't start thinly veiled critical threads of people who allow their cats to roam. Which by the way is the majority of the British cat owning public, even if it is not majority on here..


I don't think prowl is attacking outdoor cat owners, just saying that the owners should be held responsible for what they get up to which is fair enough.

Personally I think you should be made to have a special license to be able to keep a cat un neutered, otherwise all cat owners should have to have their cats sorted because a lot don't bother, don't care and don't know what goes on outside of the house.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Why should the law be different cats any pet comes with reponsibility, owner should be responsible for their animals 100% of the time. I love cats, but free roaming cats can be a nuisance, we had to renew our back door as it was repeatedly getting sprayed on by toms as was our shed. Also I believe the risks far out way the benifits, they can be poisoned, ran over or have injury inflicted on them, people can be very cruel. I understand many free roaming cats survive without being run over, poisoned or injured but I couldn't live with the guilt should it happen to mine.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

munchkinpie said:


> owner should be responsible for their animals 100% of the time.


I agree. But being responsible for cats shouldn't mean being _in control _of cats. Unless we're all to be obliged to keep them indoors 24/7, which is unlikely.

I think Marycat's central point is important. There are laws controlling dogs (and horses) because they are fully domesticated and trainable animals who obey us and work for us and that we can and should be expected to control. Cats are different. But despite the cat's independence and autonomy, owners or keepers of cats should always be prepared to make restitution for their moggies' misdemeanours where necessary. That's just part of the responsibility of having a cat.

Do any insurance companies offer third party insurance for damage caused by cats? Is it even an issue? Do cats ever cause significant damage, or is it just that they poo in the flowerbed without understanding who the flowerbed belongs to? 

Cat owners should have the understanding of their neighbours. We should all try to understand one another. I mean if my neighbour expects me to deny my cat his need to roam by confining him 24/7, I might justifiably expect him to muzzle his dog at all times and never to let it run off the leash. Seems fair, no? 

Or we could just cut each other a little slack and decide there are more important things in life to worry about.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

gentoo1980 said:


> I think the laws should be tough. I have all my cats neutered and am sick of the hassle my cats get from Toms. Also they come into my house when we have the dryer on and spray the kitchen.
> 
> My neighbours brother moved in next door for a while with three un neutred male cats. They attacked three of my cats over a four day period and each cat had to go to the vets as the cat bites we really bad. One cat was screaming so much he couldn't be exmained after a few days I finally managed to see the bites. He had three puncture wounds in his belly.
> 
> ...


I have the same problem with my neighbour cats fighting with my two boys...For some reason they dont pick on Tipsy so much I think its because he is big and very street wise, whereas Nemo is smaller and younger and they are always attacking him, Tipsy is often around and chases the cats away from Nemo, but he isnt always around where Nemo is..both my cats are neutered.

One of the cats looks very beaten up it only has half an ear. I feel sorry for it..


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Cat proofing gardens and runs allow controlled out door access.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

No it's not just pooping it's the damage done by spraying and scratching which isn't covered by insurance neither is the cost of paint for sheds etc. we are proofing our back garden but unfortunately nothing can be done to the front.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Kyria said:


> I have the same problem with my neighbour cats fighting with my two boys...For some reason they dont pick on Tipsy so much I think its because he is big and very street wise, whereas Nemo is smaller and younger and they are always attacking him, Tipsy is often around and chases the cats away from Nemo, but he isnt always around where Nemo is..both my cats are neutered.
> 
> One of the cats looks very beaten up it only has half an ear. I feel sorry for it..


Birds do that sort of thing too. Fighting each other to establish the pecking order (no pun intended ). I guess it's part of nature, which I suppose is a good thing.

But if so, maybe J. Bradshaw is right after all (http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/327154-cat-sense-not.html): all cats need their own exclusive territory to roam and patrol and will migrate if they don't have it? If so it must be very tough on those kept indoors against their will, especially with other cats. :crazy:


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2013)

The funky feathered thing is Blondie she is a Polish chicken they have these amazing hair doo's 

She's young in that photo I have now had her around 8 years.Blondie has a ginger friend of the same breed called Betty.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

gentoo1980 said:


> I think the laws should be tough. I have all my cats neutered and am sick of the hassle my cats get from Toms. Also they come into my house when we have the dryer on and spray the kitchen.


presuming your dryer is vented? My dad cut a hole in the door just for the dryer tube, very simple job. I had a similar problem with a tom coming in when the cat flap was open as I used to stick the dryer tube through it but he just shoved it aside.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2013)

gentoo1980 said:


> I think the laws should be tough. I have all my cats neutered and am sick of the hassle my cats get from Toms. Also they come into my house when we have the dryer on and spray the kitchen.
> 
> My neighbours brother moved in next door for a while with three un neutred male cats. They attacked three of my cats over a four day period and each cat had to go to the vets as the cat bites we really bad. One cat was screaming so much he couldn't be exmained after a few days I finally managed to see the bites. He had three puncture wounds in his belly.
> 
> ...


you know you can get special cat flaps which only allow your cat in and not others? There the ones with the chip in the collar. The chips which unlock the flap are quite ugly but we had the same issue as you lots of toms getting in our house and spraying on our stairs, doors ect so we got this cat flap and problem solved no more toms :>


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

munchkinpie said:


> Why should the law be different cats any pet comes with reponsibility, owner should be responsible for their animals 100% of the time. I love cats, but free roaming cats can be a nuisance, we had to renew our back door as it was repeatedly getting sprayed on by toms as was our shed. Also I believe the risks far out way the benifits, they can be poisoned, ran over or have injury inflicted on them, people can be very cruel. I understand many free roaming cats survive without being run over, poisoned or injured but I couldn't live with the guilt should it happen to mine.


I get what you're saying, but I've held up my part of responsibility as much as I can by neutering and I know getting run over is a possibility, but my cats need a bit of freedom to go outside otherwise there will be more fights between them. It depends on the areas you live in really as to the risk of injury.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Location is a factor, but runs are relatively cheap to build as is proofing. The two toms that are the worst sprayers are neutered and belong to two neighbours both are kept well, but we have a poisoner in our area, is it worth the risk? Where I stay is the worst in Scotland for poisonings over 25 cats in one residential area alone and over 10 in another. I've been told by an elderly lady that she has drowned cats for fowling in her garden. There was a cat set on fire last year not far from us. Cats are being hunted by dogs, the police were involved but can do nothing as it was an abandoned cat. I personally wouldn't risk it.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

munchkinpie said:


> Cat proofing gardens and runs allow controlled out door access.


Exactly! Most cats do like to have a 'territory' but with a cat-run or cat-proofed garden, you can provide them with exactly that 
It may be a slightly smaller territory than they would naturally try to create, but if they've never known anything else, then it should be fine.
And cats often learn as they go through life to stay away from certain areas which are the territories of other cats or humans, for example, Jumpy is learning to stay away from our next-door neighbours (they're not very nice...)

Different cats do have different needs, for example some love hunting more than others, it's a very strong instinct, so the cat-proof area would have to include grass and bushes etc to provide ample hunting possibilities.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Treaclesmum said:


> Exactly! Most cats do like to have a 'territory' but with a cat-run or cat-proofed garden, you can provide them with exactly that
> It may be a slightly smaller territory than they would naturally try to create, but *if they've never known anything else, then it should be fine*.


Exactly! :thumbsup: That's the CRUCIAL issue regarding confinement, imo.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> Birds do that sort of thing too. Fighting each other to establish the pecking order (no pun intended ). I guess it's part of nature, which I suppose is a good thing.
> 
> But if so, maybe J. Bradshaw is right after all (http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/327154-cat-sense-not.html): all cats need their own exclusive territory to roam and patrol and will migrate if they don't have it? If so it must be very tough on those kept indoors against their will, especially with other cats. :crazy:


I watched a documentry a while back that put trackers on i think 40 or so domestiacted cats in a small village.

Where they shared the same territy as other cats they would simply time share it so they weren't there at the same time. They'd enter and leave the territory around the same time each day.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> presuming your dryer is vented? My dad cut a hole in the door just for the dryer tube, very simple job. I had a similar problem with a tom coming in when the cat flap was open as I used to stick the dryer tube through it but he just shoved it aside.


Unforatualy we live in a rented house and the doors metal plated. We are moving soon though and was going to put a vent through the wall. Didn't think about doing it through the door, I might do that, thanks.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Prowl said:


> you know you can get special cat flaps which only allow your cat in and not others? There the ones with the chip in the collar. The chips which unlock the flap are quite ugly but we had the same issue as you lots of toms getting in our house and spraying on our stairs, doors ect so we got this cat flap and problem solved no more toms :>


I found out about them recently, am planning to buy one when I move house. Hope it works on all my cats, I've read some people have problems when the chip slips, even though you can change the scanning range.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Prowl said:


> The funky feathered thing is Blondie she is a Polish chicken they have these amazing hair doo's
> 
> She's young in that photo I have now had her around 8 years.Blondie has a ginger friend of the same breed called Betty.


Oh she is lovely. I just goggled for some photos. Love the ginger ones.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Later on dad had a spare microchip cat flap so I've now got one. It means I don't need to lock it for cats coming in as it only lets my two in. I have no idea whether the chips have slipped but its not stopped working yet. I have a glance at it when I do the washing so I know whether its got its low battery warning light on.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

There just isn't a one size fits all solution. I have a couple of friends who are farmers/land owners. Are you really telling me they should confine their animals when there are acres they could be exploring?


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

If you have acres of land for them to explore, then you have very lucky cats 

They should be able to enjoy themselves out there, although unfortunately many countryside areas have very fast dangerous roads nearby, so I would still want to put a barrier between my land and the road!

I also saw the documentary about cats time-sharing their territory with each other (in a very idyllic village!) - I have read that a cats' territory can be large or small, though. In a multi-cat household, different cats have different sleeping places and they will choose one to be exclusively theirs for a while. Some cats spend more time up high than others. This is all about territory too, it's not just about the outdoor space but the indoor space too. So cats who are confined indoors can still establish their own exclusive indoor territory.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Treaclesmum said:


> If you have acres of land for them to explore, then you have very lucky cats
> 
> They should be able to enjoy themselves out there, although unfortunately many countryside areas have very fast dangerous roads nearby, so I would still want to put a barrier between my land and the road!
> .


Treaclesmum - this isn't aimed at you but life in general. What sort of health and safety world do we live in where landowners need to cat proof an acre of boundaries. Sometimes this place feels like a parallel universe.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Laurac said:


> Sometimes this place feels like a parallel universe.


That's it absolutely.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Laurac said:


> Treaclesmum - this isn't aimed at you but life in general. What sort of health and safety world do we live in where landowners need to cat proof an acre of boundaries. Sometimes this place feels like a parallel universe.


Well, I have heard it's the country roads that are the worst of all! And I can well believe it 

One minute they are totally silent, then a car/van/lorry etc comes speeding down at 80mph!! As a driver, that's scary! As an unsuspecting cat.........? :001_huh:

But I say, why should I _*not*_ put a barrier between my land and such a road, not just for my cats but for me to feel safer too! And if I had kids, would they not need protection when playing outdoors?? 

I was brought up to enjoy seeing cats wandering around the neighbourhood - but I now sadly realise that not everyone else was! Including some of my neighbours.... So why should people - and their pets - not be able to just enjoy the space which is actually *theirs?? * It seems that some of my neighbours think that a cat found in their garden is trespassing just as they would if it were a human!! Sounds stupid to me of course, but they don't know or care about the behaviour and thinking of a cat............ 

For me, a barrier would feel like freedom - me and my babies can enjoy our freedom whilst the traffic roars beyond the fence!
For some, it may feel like the opposite - it may feel like being fenced in. But I see it as fencing the world *out*, not fencing myself or my cats in.

If I lived on acres of land, I would hope to give my cats a bit more freedom than just a cat run, but I would hope to enclose a large area with a cat-proofed fence. This is all hypothetical as I don't live in a country place like that, but I do have neighbours who get very annoyed about any cats coming into their garden - so rather than risk my cats being bullied and possibly harmed by people like that, it does make sense to try to prevent them from being found on someone else's land.

I feel it is a privilege to be able to protect my family.....


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

munchkinpie said:


> Yes. I don't understand why the law is different for cats anyway. You chose to get the cat, you should be responsible for its behaviour 24/7. Not a popular view but it my feelings on it.


And mine too. If you own a pet then you have to make sure it is protected and also it doesn´t become a nuisance to others.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I am seriously amazed at how intolerant people who profess to love cats can be... Need to repaint the shed because of cat damage??!! Seriously?
I wish to God the biggest problem in my life was a bit of cat muck in my garden..
Also while I understand that for some people a cat run or cat proofing is a good compromise, imagine a cat that has previously roamed and then his life is turned upside down and he is confined to a run. The cat can see his previous territory but is stuck in effectively what to him is a cage. Its enough to drive the poor creature out of his mind. Whats worse having a great life and the risk of being run over or being driven slowly mental by not having an outlet for ingrained natural behaviour? I love it when people say 'they get used to it' I daresay they do, the same as we would get used to it eventually if we were confined to the house. Great idea for a cat that has never roamed but again not a solution for ALL cats. There is no solution for all cats, some adapt to indoor life and are happy but the majority will be over that fence quicker than you can say 'Bye Tiddles'..
Its bloody depressing when you read that 'cat lovers' are up in arms about what is cat behaviour!!


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Following on from what I mentioned about my neighbours disliking cats, I don't know whether they would actually harm them but I don't want to find out the hard way!! And more to the point, I have seen Jumpy react with fear when the neighbour simply comes out in the garden....... this is a recent development, and Jumpy's not a nervous cat naturally. To see him scared and running for cover tells me he is good at avoiding danger, but it also makes me angry... that anyone should scare him for just being a cat! He was a rescue cat who got roughly treated by some children in a tower block and then fell 2 storeys out of the window, causing a very painful spinal cyst. This boy does not deserve any more fear or pain! He has come through so much and yet is still the most loving and affectionate boy with me, but if something scares or hurts him, he is once bitten twice shy, he doesn't trust easily. He is a cat that would not enjoy being in the cat run all the time but he is called indoors before dusk and whenever we go out. Why should he suffer just because some of my idiot neighbours don't understand cats?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Marycat said:


> I am seriously amazed at how intolerant people who profess to love cats can be... Need to repaint the shed because of cat damage??!! Seriously?
> I wish to God the biggest problem in my life was a bit of cat muck in my garden..


Although I know it isn't the biggest issue in the world I honestly resent my neighbours for this. Their cat uses our garden as a litter tray constantly. We can't grow veggies for hygiene reasons and we cant have plants much really as they always end ups dug up. It isn't his fault, it is the owner who refuse to give him a litter tray! It's awful to have to deal with. What makes it worse for me is I own a sensitive cat who could easily pick up common infections from other cats that could prove life threatening or even fatal to him. I'm forced to clear their cat's mess from my garden and then have to come indoors and then disinfect everything, use disposable gloves, and then there are the bits you can't see. I have to disinfect my shoes "just in case". It's a real nightmare but I can't risk the health of my cat. The worst part is I have heard them shooing their own cat from their garden if he tries to do his business there!


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I am seriously amazed at how intolerant people who profess to love cats can be... Need to repaint the shed because of cat damage??!! Seriously?
> I wish to God the biggest problem in my life was a bit of cat muck in my garden..
> Also while I understand that for some people a cat run or cat proofing is a good compromise, imagine a cat that has previously roamed and then his life is turned upside down and he is confined to a run. The cat can see his previous territory but is stuck in effectively what to him is a cage. Its enough to drive the poor creature out of his mind. Whats worse having a great life and the risk of being run over or being driven slowly mental by not having an outlet for ingrained natural behaviour? I love it when people say 'they get used to it' I daresay they do, the same as we would get used to it eventually if we were confined to the house. Great idea for a cat that has never roamed but again not a solution for ALL cats. There is no solution for all cats, some adapt to indoor life and are happy but the majority will be over that fence quicker than you can say 'Bye Tiddles'..
> Its bloody depressing when you read that 'cat lovers' are up in arms about what is cat behaviour!!


I think we covered this on a previous thread, every cat is different and yours didn´t take well to be confined. But you also explained if I´m not wrong, that if your neighbours complained about their gardens you would go and clear up. That is you being responsible and not a lot of people do that, they just let them out into the world. I feel that people who don´t want cats in their gardens or to repaint their doors have a right to that as well. I mean a normal person can´t help stray cats coming in and won´t harm them but they have the right to feel irritated and not like it.Because to us our cats are our pets and we love them but to those people, they are pests and some coudn´t care less what happened to them.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I am seriously amazed at how intolerant people who profess to love cats can be... Need to repaint the shed because of cat damage??!! Seriously?
> I wish to God the biggest problem in my life was a bit of cat muck in my garden..
> Also while I understand that for some people a cat run or cat proofing is a good compromise, imagine a cat that has previously roamed and then his life is turned upside down and he is confined to a run. The cat can see his previous territory but is stuck in effectively what to him is a cage. Its enough to drive the poor creature out of his mind. Whats worse having a great life and the risk of being run over or being driven slowly mental by not having an outlet for ingrained natural behaviour? I love it when people say 'they get used to it' I daresay they do, the same as we would get used to it eventually if we were confined to the house. Great idea for a cat that has never roamed but again not a solution for ALL cats. There is no solution for all cats, some adapt to indoor life and are happy but the majority will be over that fence quicker than you can say 'Bye Tiddles'..
> Its bloody depressing when you read that 'cat lovers' are up in arms about what is cat behaviour!!


It think I stated the damaged done was more than the just the shed and picking up poop! It's its also not the biggest problem in my life, far from it! I was only backing up why I feel the way I do. Many people who allow free roaming are unaware that the damage they can cause is more than uprooting pansies!! 
Think of a free roaming cat that has ended up in a rehoming shelter, 99% seem settled, whinny bank a feral shelter I support those cats seem happy and that is a complete change for them. It does take time for them to gain trust but many do. 
Just because people want to be 100% responsible 100% doesn't mean we love cats less than someone who allows free roaming.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Merlin the door needed replaced not repainted, it cost quite a bit as our door is not standard size. Our old one was original to the property, now we have UPvc. So it can't be clawed and can be wiped down.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Laurac said:


> There just isn't a one size fits all solution. I have a couple of friends who are farmers/land owners. Are you really telling me they should confine their animals when there are acres they could be exploring?


I think they should confine them, its not only about risks to the cats themselves but the risks free roaming cats pose to our native wildlife.

.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> I think they should confine them, its not only about risks to the cats themselves but the risks free roaming cats pose to our native wildlife.


the odd mouse or bird?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm a pretty tolorant person but totally get were people are coming from when they don't like cats. 

Some cat owners just fail completely to take responsability for their cats actions. My neighbour has lost cats to fox's I reckon because his cats have no fear of them and he definately locks them out at night and while their gone. This is very common practice and its wrong! Another neighbour has a tom they lock out and it poops on our drive which is filthy and unpleasent and pees on our front door the spot has melted the paint! 

Some and I say some meaning not all really have no sense of responsability and I think the law does need to get tough. I think curfews are a great idea.

Their are plenty of ways to keep cats out of trouble and ensure their safety but so many choose not to.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Wiz201 said:


> the odd mouse or bird?


Millions of cats killing the 'odd mouse or bird' can only be having a negative impact on the ecosystem.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Millions of cats killing the 'odd mouse or bird' can only be having a negative impact on the ecosystem.


Cats eat mice and birds shock! I thought that WAS the ecosystem?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> Cats eat mice and birds shock! I thought that WAS the ecosystem?


Domesticated animals aren't part of any ecosystem.

.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

As always this debate becomes a we say/you say but the bottom line is IMO  cats are domesticated pets with the same basic care needs as any other.
For want of a better word the "owner" should feed/protect and care for their health and well being 24/7 and also make sure that their pet is not a nuisance to others and I will never understand how that can be achieved when you open the door and allow a cat to go off on its own


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Domesticated animals aren't part of any ecosystem..


A quick look at Wikipedia tells that "An ecosystem is a community of living organisms (plants, animals and microbes) in conjunction with the nonliving components of their environment (things like air, water and mineral soil), interacting as a system."

So if there is a local interaction between cats, birds and mice in which mice and birds are food for the cats, and the cats limit the populations of the birds and mice... how is that not a system?

Are cattle not a major part of the global ecosystem? Cattle: 'the most common type of large domesticated ungulates'. You're surely not suggesting that because cattle are domesticated they're no longer part of the ecosystem.

Domesticated animals interact with the rest of the ecosystem, and are therefore part of it, by definition. Or what?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> A quick look at Wikipedia tells that "An ecosystem is a community of living organisms (plants, animals and microbes) in conjunction with the nonliving components of their environment (things like air, water and mineral soil), interacting as a system."
> 
> So if there is a local interaction between cats, birds and mice in which mice and birds are food for the cats, and the cats limit the populations of the birds and mice... how is that not a system?
> 
> ...


I think whats trying to be said is cats DO cause a problem to wildlife and this can be prevented such as making a cat pen or cat proof your home/garden.

Cats don't need to roam they are domestic animals and while dog owners are faced with various laws and fines if they don't comply within cat owners get off scott free.

In other countries they have introduced curfews, mandatory microchiping and neuturing to help control cat numbers because they do infact breed at a prolofic rate. Because of this they have multiplied so that now we are faced with a number of feral cats which go after wildlife and peoples domestic pets.

Originally cats were kept as mousers but with an introduction of comercial brands good pet care they really don't need to go outside anymore. So for that reason alone should cat owners be made acounterable for damage their cat causes to property and wildlife?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> I think whats trying to be said is cats DO cause a problem to wildlife and this can be prevented such as making a cat pen or cat proof your home/garden.


That's true enough. If I was a mouse or a bird (or a rat) I'd much prefer if the humans would remove my natural predators.

We could also consider capturing and confining lions if we felt they were causing a problem to the antelopes. Or badgers if we felt they were causing a problem to cattle. There's all sorts of ways we can interfere with the ecosystem.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> Cats eat mice and birds shock! I thought that WAS the ecosystem?


Exactly. First WE kill or chase away all natural predators and now we would also need to keep semi-domesticated ones indoors because WE make our neck of the woods uninhabitable for their prey. Tur ing the world upside down in my view. Better stop polluting the environment and wdlife would thrive


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> That's true enough. If I was a mouse or a bird (or a rat) I'd much prefer if the humans would remove my natural predators.
> 
> We could also consider capturing and confining lions if we felt they were causing a problem to the antelopes. Or badgers if we felt they were causing a problem to cattle. There's all sorts of ways we can interfere with the ecosystem.


But cats are domesticated animals our responsability they don't have to be outside to maim the wildlife we just feel they should be able to roam free because thats what we are used to being told. 
Domestic pet cats no longer need to roam thats a privilage we as their owners allow them. Theirfore owners should take on a responsability to ensure a cats safety you can't do that if your letting them loose.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

At the end of the day, I agree that we shouldn't _*"have"*_ to restrict our cats freedom, but sadly these days, we do have to!

Just because I disagree with my neighbours and think they are idiots for disliking cats doesn't mean that I should ignore their wishes - it won't be me who pays the price, it will be my cats


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> But cats are domesticated animals our responsability they don't have to be outside to maim the wildlife we just feel they should be able to roam free because thats what we are used to being told.
> Domestic pet cats no longer need to roam thats a privilage we as their owners allow them. Theirfore owners should take on a responsability to ensure a cats safety you can't do that if your letting them loose.


So you want to confine animals to indoor spaces, which is inherently unnatural, because humans want to control the environment and make it even more unnatural. 
For yor information, it is humans building roads and towns that is unnatural. Not animals hunting prey. So if you want to do something good for the environment, don't eat vegs or fruit that has been treated with incecticides, which render birds and small mammals infertile, don't kill or trap mice and DO allow rats and moles in your garden. 
Our actions against so-called pests are a thousand times more detrimental to birds and mice than cats. So if you are rruly concerned about ecological balance you should fight incecticides and urbanisation.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Treaclesmum said:


> At the end of the day, I agree that we shouldn't _*"have"*_ to restrict our cats freedom, but sadly these days, we do have to!
> 
> Just because I disagree with my neighbours and think they are idiots for disliking cats doesn't mean that I should ignore their wishes - it won't be me who pays the price, it will be my cats


Sadly, in most urban areas this is true. But not because they are a pest. We are the pest. Their freedom is being restricted because we made the environment too dangerous for them


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Well my cats will be allowed to continue to come and go as they please, my neighbours have not started complaining. Yes, you might say they may still be grumbling about it, but I don't see why laws have to be put in place to start controlling cats when they don't do near as much harm as dogs can. They have the option of using a litter tray which I think makes the difference. 
The amount of animals a cat will kill is nowhere near to the amount we have effectively killed off by hunting or polluting the environment over the decades.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> A quick look at Wikipedia tells that "An ecosystem is a community of living organisms (plants, animals and microbes) in conjunction with the nonliving components of their environment (things like air, water and mineral soil), interacting as a system."
> 
> So if there is a local interaction between cats, birds and mice in which mice and birds are food for the cats, and the cats limit the populations of the birds and mice... how is that not a system?
> 
> ...


'Interacting as a system' - Add an Alien species or remove a native one and it can create a negative knock on effect across the whole ecosystem.

Simply put, in nature predators control prey populations and prey, along with the availability of territory, determine predator populations. So predator populations can only be high if these two factors are met. When prey numbers drop then so do predator numbers its the natural cycle of feast and famine. Nature tends to be very good at controlling the natural balance between predator and prey. Cats are fed, there is nothing controlling their population. They outnumber any of our native predator species by millions, cats not only impact on prey species but also on indigenous predators as they are out competed for food.

Domesticated species don't belong in any ecosystem.

.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Domesticated species don't belong in any ecosystem.
> 
> .


But they do take the place in the ecosystem of the natural predators we have eliminated, who would have made a far bigger dent in the numbers of prey animals than our sleepy, lazy, well-fed house cats do.

Yes, the number of house cats is greater than the number of natural predators would have been, but they would have depended on catching prey, and would need to catch a multitude of prey animals to survive.

Most of my cats only incidentally catch a mouse or bird, and for two of them, the prey just about needs to fly or walk into their mouths for them to catch it. Even my two most proficient hunters each only catch one or two a week. A single wild predator the size of a cat would need to catch at least 5 or 6 a DAY to survive.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Domesticated species don't belong in any ecosystem.


Eh what? Domesticated species don't belong in any ecosystem? That is literal nonsense. The ecosystem is the world of nature. We belong in it, and so do domestic animals. Your confined-indoors cat belongs in the ecosystem. It eats other animals which we raise and slaughter and feed to it. It interacts with the ecosystem. To say otherwise is just silly.

Whether you feel that cats eating mice is a negative impact on the ecosystem depends on your very arbitrary and artificial opinion of right and wrong, positive and negative. Nature doesn't make those kind of distinctions. The ecosystem just continues, naturally. Cats are part of it, indoor and outdoor, just as we are.

Domesticated species belong in the ecosystem whether we like it or not.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2013)

I never said cats are not unnatural they just dont need to be outside. They are most definately a domesticated animal under the responsability of a human.

You only have to look at Australia and see what the number of introduced species cats included have done to their ecosysterm. 

We don't need to let our cats outside its just something we have lead to be believe for generations. Cats get everything they need from their home a garden and house is all they need.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I never said cats are not unnatural they just dont need to be outside. They are most definately a domesticated animal under the responsability of a human.
> 
> You only have to look at Australia and see what the number of introduced species cats included have done to their ecosysterm.
> 
> We don't need to let our cats outside its just something we have lead to be believe for generations. Cats get everything they need from their home a garden and house is all they need.


Confining cats, or any animals, to a man-made structure is VERY unnatural.

If there is any animal that needs to be kept indoors and well away from any ecosystem, it is man, not cats.
Cats, cows, birds etc should not need to be locked indoors because WE, humans, have made a bl00dy mess of the world. And even less becasue we foolishly claim we own the place and have a right to say who can share it and who not.

It is OUR roads, towns, cars, agriculture, pesticides, pollution and downright arrogance that has ruined ecosystems, NOT cats. It is impossible for cats to ruin the ecosystem in an area populated by man, because man has long destroyed whatever natural ecosystem there ever was.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I never said cats are not unnatural they just dont need to be outside. They are most definately a domesticated animal under the responsability of a human.
> 
> You only have to look at Australia and see what the number of introduced species cats included have done to their ecosysterm.
> 
> We don't need to let our cats outside its just something we have lead to be believe for generations. Cats get everything they need from their home a garden and house is all they need.


We don't need cars and planes and roads and towns, it is just something we convinced ourselves to believe for generations.

Cats are only doing what comes natural to them, WE are the ones that are unnatural, and we are trying to force animals to live with the unnatural restrictions of OUR unnatural world.


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## wennywoo (May 29, 2013)

I watched country file too, and I must say I don't think they made cats out to be villains, I think they presented a fair argument and demonstrated ways to keep native wildlife safe. We personally have an array of wildlife in our garden and although we have been faced with a few casualties from our cat (who only has one tooth) I can count those casualties on one hand and one of those came from our chimney. (A traumatic wake up call at 6 am one morning but that's another story). We have a successful breeding box for Bluetits in our garden and I make sure that our cat is let out after dawn and let in before dusk so that they can continue to breed in peace. Our cat only actually stays in our garden and sleeps in one of three places. She's never let out at night, comes in at 10 and on the odd occasions she's been out later, I've gone outside to find her side by side with a snuffly hedgehog that she hasn't bothered with, but has obviously made friends with! I'm not militant, I just like her in on a night time for her own safety and to be honest, she wouldn't want to be out all day everyday year round because she's a fair weather type of gal. She doesn't go in one neighbours garden because they have taught her not to. I don't mind, because I know my neighbour suffers with hives should cats go near her, but she's fine with ours (has practised positive reinforcement and will give her chicken when she's on our side of the fence) and has actually learned to love her... So long as she keeps her distance, which she does. Mutual respect. She even chases off the cats in the street if they dare go in their garden... Not so much with our garden though which is odd.

Our other kitten will remain to be seen though. I will give next door a water pistol so he doesn't stray to that side of the street, but again that will only help everyone. (I can hear the gasps now from everyone reading this!) However, next door won't get poorly and our cat will have less of a chance of meeting the two big fighters at the end of the road because he'll be deterred from going over that side of the fence. He'll also be shut in after a certain time and in the summer and breeding times we will avoid letting him out at dusk and dawn. 

When we eventually move house, there will be an "outdoor litter tray" made from natural substrates so they don't necessarily go in neighbours gardens, but because the eldest one is fair weather, we'd never get rid of the ones in the house either. I do think although there is an innate sense for cats to hunt and have a territory and all that jazz, their behaviours can be trained to a degree - after all, we domesticated them in the first place! That said, I do think there is very little people can do to stop cats doing what they want, when they want. 

I think there's a balance to be had. And I think as long as I take responsibility for my cats I'm doing something half right.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

ok then, let's just let our dogs and our cats and our rabbits and our birds and our snakes and lizzards and guineapigs and horses all out to free roam, because it's wrong to confine them.

No? Didn't think so.

Fact is, when you take something on as a pet, you take responsibility with it. If you don't think a pet should be confined, it's simple. Let it live wild, don't take it on as a pet.

But when your pets are causing inconvenience and misery to others who DIDN'T choose to have that animal as a pet, but your actions as an owner keep it local to your house and your area, then I'm sorry, but you need to be responsible for that and stop it happening. If that involves keeping your destructive animal indoors or in an animal proofed garden, then that's what needs to be done. When a cat free roams, you can't take full responsibility. How do you prove that it's your cat and not someone else's pooing in the neighbour's garden? How do I prove that it was your cat who fought with mine and left me with a huge vet bill? Or that it was your cat who killed the nest of fledgelings I'd been leaving food out for for the last few weeks? you can't, so you can't truly take responsibility for the pet you chose to have.

Anyone who knows me will tell you that when it comes to cats, I'm about as soppy as it's possible to be, but that still doesn't stop me getting really upset and cross when I've had to clean tomcat spray out of my screen door for the 7th time in a day, when my lot are all edgey and tearing lumps out of each other because the smell has provoked them, when my garden (which cost a lot to repair) is dug up and used as a cat toilet, when my friend's little girl comes in with hands covered in cat poo after wanting to pick flowers out there. I ensure that my cats are not an inconvenience to others. is it so much to ask the same in return?


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## wennywoo (May 29, 2013)

carly87 said:


> ok then, let's just let our dogs and our cats and our rabbits and our birds and our snakes and lizzards and guineapigs and horses all out to free roam, because it's wrong to confine them.
> 
> No? Didn't think so.
> 
> ...


I'm confused, was your post in response to mine?!


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## wennywoo (May 29, 2013)

wennywoo said:


> I'm confused, was your post in response to mine?!


Also, I think you've solved the problem we have of why our little one is intermittently peeing by our front door! Thank you!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Nope, just a general reaponse, lovely, and more because I'm in a ranty mood than because I truly expect any change of opinion from anyone. This is a hotly debated issue, and everyone has their own views on it.

Yep, if your furry is weeing by the front door, it may well be because someone's spraying on the other side of it.


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## wennywoo (May 29, 2013)

It is a hotly debated issue you're right, but I do agree that if you're worried about wildlife and other people, a certain amount of responsibility does need to be taken. I also think all cats should be neutered but again that's just my opinion.

Ah, that'll be Felix up the road that does his business in our front garden which is getting Schmidt's goat then! Not a lot I can do about that unfortunately. Boys will be boys!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

How's the hand, Carly?
Glad to see you are able to type lengthy posts again, so it must be a lot better......


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hah, JKF, the rath of my typing has been unleashed once more! Actually took me since this morning to type that. Have been working on it for ages! hand is a good bit better although still reasonably sore. Dressings off on Friday hopefully, and then I'm hoping I'll be back to normal! They'll at least tell me then whether i need more surgery or not.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Better not overdo it, then...
Give it some rest.
Hoping for good news on Friday.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Oi, and not have a rant, ahem, I mean say my peace, on a potentially contentious issue? How could I resist!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Oi, and not have a rant, ahem, I mean say my peace, on a potentially contentious issue? How could I resist!


Have it your way, but don't complain if your hand hurts again...... 

But having a rant every now and then is very tempting, I must agree...


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

carly87 said:


> ok then, let's just let our dogs and our cats and our rabbits and our birds and our snakes and lizzards and guineapigs and horses all out to free roam, because it's wrong to confine them.
> 
> No? Didn't think so.
> 
> ...


A cat is not a dog or a rabbit though is it?? It is a unique animal. The need to roam and claim a territory is inbuilt, it is nature, There is no point debating it because if it wasn't true we wouldn't need to cat proof. A cat is also an intelligent animal that has more ability than most to survive.
I take it you have cat proofing? I found when I had it the garden became a magnet for the local cats who stared at my cat like he was in a goldfish bowl. Just a thought but your cats could be being edgy and tearing lumps out of each other because you have placed them in a unnatural situation (as I did)and they are unable to get away (or get away from each other as well) I found that as soon as my cat was able to get out and claim his territory all the other cats backed off and my two stopped fighting. Of course this was just my experience but I honestly never had issues with the local cats until I cat proofed and left my cat stuck in the garden like a sitting duck. Other people may not have had this experience of course..
Of course the answer is that everyone confines their cat but that's not going to happen is it because some people honestly believe it is cruel to confine a cat and to enforce your beliefs on them would be as wrong as the free roaming cat owner telling the indoor cat owner that they must let their cat out.So I guess the compromise is we all learn a bit of tolerance. Just like when local kids scream and dogs bark and the neighbour slams his car door.Not end of the world stuff is it really?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I think Carly is a very tolerant person, and I know that in a lot of cases it is absolutely necessary to catproof. In Carly's case, as with many people with pure-bred cats, I am afraid theft of her cats would be one of the reasons.

As for me, I am not opposed to catproofing, as, like I said, it happens to be necessary in a lot of cases.

What I object to is that some people claim cats ought to be locked up because they are a pest to the ecosystem and other people, when, in fact, it is people who are a pest to the ecosystem and the animals we have killed off or chased away and whose territory we have usurped. We should do what we do for the good of the cat, and not to justify our arrogant claims on their natural environment. 

And yes, cats are indiginous to all of Europe, or at least they used to be, till we exterminated them, while at the same time importing semi-domesticated cats from elsewhere. There ought to be wild cats living in our forests, and there still would have been, but for our own selfish actions.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Ok I get that.. Theft is not something I had considered to be fair and it is perfectly valid worry so I apologise Carly!! Nobody would want steal my moggy. I am not against catproofing either, it as a lot of merits but there are downsides to consider too.
I am totally with you on the ecosystem thing. If there is one creature that needs locking up, its man.


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

munchkinpie said:


> Yes. I don't understand why the law is different for cats anyway. You chose to get the cat, you should be responsible for its behaviour 24/7. Not a popular view but it my feelings on it.


I haven't read the whole thread, but want to say I totally, 100% agree with this. I'm currently feeding 2 stays (a kitten and a 2-year old - I believe - complete tom). As long as they are strays that I'm feeding and haven't managed to catch yet, they are obviously free roaming. Once they're caught, they'll be neutered, microchipped and vaccinated, and from that day on, I will know where they are and what they are doing 24/7 for the rest of their lives.

(And I'll post pictures of the big outdoor enclosure I've been building for them as soon as it's finished!)


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Interesting conversation, but considering it has the title of "Countryfile Cat Special" it quickly descended into the old 'indoor - outdoor' arguments. 

I'm can only assume that some of the posters here didn't watch the same programme I did because they clearly stated that cats are NOT a major problem to British wildlife, and that in fact it is our modern life, with intensive farming and packed in housing estates causing loss of habitat that is the biggest issue for birds and small mammals. 

As for growing veg in your garden, its perfectly simple, you build a cage either yourself if you are handy with a saw and nails or buy one from the local garden shop. Cats will be the least of your worries when growing veg, the pigeons will get to them first if you don't protect them, leaving you with bare stalks and not a lot else. Only thing I've found they wont go for are the Leeks and Onions!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> Interesting conversation, but considering it has the title of "Countryfile Cat Special" it quickly descended into the old 'indoor - outdoor' arguments.
> 
> I'm can only assume that some of the posters here didn't watch the same programme I did because they clearly stated that cats are NOT a major problem to British wildlife, and that in fact it is our modern life, with intensive farming and packed in housing estates causing loss of habitat that is the biggest issue for birds and small mammals.


My point exactly



> As for growing veg in your garden, its perfectly simple, you build a cage either yourself if you are handy with a saw and nails or buy one from the local garden shop. Cats will be the least of your worries when growing veg, the pigeons will get to them first if you don't protect them, leaving you with bare stalks and not a lot else. Only thing I've found they wont go for are the Leeks and Onions!


It isn't the programme we are commenting on, but the OP's statement, which THEY based on this same programme, that there should be a law against outdoor cats and they should all be locked up indoors.
So it was the OP, who - as far as I know - doesn't even own a cat, who started the indoor-outdoor debate.

Again, I may add, as they started a very similar thread a couple of weeks ago. Seems like they have a bee in their bonnet about cats having more freedom than their dog.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2013)

All domestic animals are confined in some way acept for cats.

You can argue it any way you like but as I have said they don't need to be outdoors and they are not all that unique by comparison to everything else. 

Cat owners have a responsability to their pets which they are definately not keeping to if they let them roam.

How on earth can you be a responsable cat owner if you have no idea were your cat is going or what their up to when their outside. 

Cats do pose a serious threat to wildlife. In many contries they have become a big problem and extreme methods have had to take place in order to control the cat population. 

The countryfile programe did say that most of the wildlife casulties brought into rescue centres are the result of cats having caught their prey and discuarded them which cat owners have all ways known cats do yet still they are happy to let their cats out and allow them to hunt.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> All domestic animals are confined in some way acept for cats.
> 
> You can argue it any way you like but as I have said they don't need to be outdoors and they are not all that unique by comparison to everything else.
> 
> ...


You are turning it all around.

WE, humans, are not all that special that we should be allowed to decide that it is alright for our fellow creatures to be locked indoors.

Cats, and all animals, for that matter, are a lot less wantonly destructive than man.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

The more I read that it is alright to keep animals indoors for *our* benefit, the more I despise mankind.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

JKF you are so spot on.

...Another indoor outdoor debate? :Yawn: Can we have a forum rule for this as they just go round and round and get everyone upset.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> But they do take the place in the ecosystem of the natural predators we have eliminated, who would have made a far bigger dent in the numbers of prey animals than our sleepy, lazy, well-fed house cats do.
> 
> Yes, the number of house cats is greater than the number of natural predators would have been, but they would have depended on catching prey, and would need to catch a multitude of prey animals to survive.
> 
> Most of my cats only incidentally catch a mouse or bird, and for two of them, the prey just about needs to fly or walk into their mouths for them to catch it. Even my two most proficient hunters each only catch one or two a week. A single wild predator the size of a cat would need to catch at least 5 or 6 a DAY to survive.


Evidence of Two Peer Reviewed scientific studies were published this year on the impact of cats on birds, one conducted in America one conducted in the UK,..both proving unequivocally cats are having a significant impact.

*Serious impact of cats on bird populations
"Here we have yet another peer-reviewed study that documents additional, serious impacts to bird populations that previously have not been fully appreciated. Feral and outdoor cats are simply devastating populations of birds and other wildlife," said Clare Nielsen, Director of Communications for American Bird Conservancy, one of the leading bird conservation organizations in the U. *

Wildlife Extra News - Cats even worse for birds than previously documented



CoCoTrio said:


> Eh what? Domesticated species don't belong in any ecosystem? That is literal nonsense. The ecosystem is the world of nature. We belong in it, and so do domestic animals. Your confined-indoors cat belongs in the ecosystem. It eats other animals which we raise and slaughter and feed to it. It interacts with the ecosystem. To say otherwise is just silly.
> 
> Whether you feel that cats eating mice is a negative impact on the ecosystem depends on your very arbitrary and artificial opinion of right and wrong, positive and negative. Nature doesn't make those kind of distinctions. The ecosystem just continues, naturally. Cats are part of it, indoor and outdoor, just as we are.
> 
> Domesticated species belong in the ecosystem whether we like it or not.


A healthy ecosystem are a natural balance of creatures, flora, micro-organisms etc. When non native species or domestics are introduced to an ecosystem they invariably have a negative impact on that balance, because they didn't evolve there.

Established ecosystems have developed their own natural balance and controls over time, and the plants and animals within those systems find this balance suitable for survival, or they have been able to adapt in order to survive within those conditions. When non-native species from other ecosystems are introduced, they can upset that balance and bring harm to the established plants and animals, and the whole ecosystem. Non-native species come from somewhere else and they are not natural to the ecosystem they have been introduced to. They may be harmless and beneficial in their natural surroundings, but they can totally devastate different environments. When alien species enter into an ecosystem, they can disrupt the natural balance, reduce biodiversity, degrade habitats, alter native genetic diversity, transmit exotic diseases to native species, and further jeopardize endangered plants and animals. When there are no established natural controls, such as predators to keep the non-native harmful species in check, there can be a population explosion of the invasive non-native species causing an ecological catastrophe.

I love this quote >> *Walk gently on our Earth, lest you be a harmful alien species. *

ECO-PROS Invasive Non-Native Species


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> The more I read that it is alright to keep animals indoors for *our* benefit, the more I despise mankind.


Cant speak for anyone else but its for wildlife's sake in my case.

.


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## cat burglar (Jun 9, 2013)

Prowl said:


> The countryfile programe did say that most of the wildlife casulties brought into rescue centres are the result of cats having caught their prey and discuarded them which cat owners have all ways known cats do yet still they are happy to let their cats out and allow them to hunt.


Up until earlier this year, I ran a small hedgehog rescue for 9 years and the majority of casualties presented were caused by humans, eg strimmer injuries, nest disturbance, pesticide poisoning, RTAs. I never once had a cat attack casualty, but plenty of dog attack casualties. Some of the dog owners took the hogs to the vets after their dogs had attacked a hedgehog, where in turn the hogs got passed on to me after treatment - in a lot of these cases the dogs came off worse after these attacks as the blood on the hedgehogs was from the dogs' mouths, so the dogs had to subsequently be treated too!


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> I love this quote >> *Stay indoors, lest you be a harmful alien species. *


ftfy 
................


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> ftfy
> ................


What does that mean CoCo? I'm hopeless with abbreviations lol

.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I think the thing here that unbalances nature is that as pets we save them, nurse them when they are sick and generally care for them. This gives a HUGE advantage to a domestic species over a natural species. For example an injured cat or nest of kittens will be given care where possible, increasing their numbers ten fold. In a wild setting not as many kittens would survive to adulthood and even less would be naturally immune to disease, and the ecosystem would only support a predator if a food source was available, we supplement cats diets with meals at home. We provide care and vaccination, as well as a stable food supply. This in turn tips the natural balance in favor of the domestic cat and along with that it we increase the numbers of them to a degree much more than would naturally occur. This in turn again contributes towards wildlife decreasing.

I am still on the fence and believe circumstance and the cat in question are all factors in the indoor outdoor debate though.


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## cat burglar (Jun 9, 2013)

EDIT TO ADD: Rat traps left out in gardens by humans also cause untold damage to wildlife. Rat traps are indiscriminate so will also trap unintended targets. We had a hedgehog handed into us with one of these flaming traps still attached to its rear leg. The poor wee guy had to have the affected badly damaged leg amputated. Fortunately (if you can class it as fortunate) it was a rear leg, and a hedgehog can cope with a missing back limb, but not a missing front limb. The poor hedgehog was eventually placed in a forever home in a securely enclosed garden and his new family continue to monitor him and check on his amputation site for signs of abrasion.

As already cited by other posters, humans have done, and still do, far more damage to wildlife than any other species on this planet.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> What does that mean CoCo? I'm hopeless with abbreviations lol


Just 'fixed that for you'. Couldn't resist, being naughty.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

My reasons are not environmental as I feel the first destroyer is man. Mine are for the cat´s safety, my neigbour´s happiness and my peace of mind.

Before anyone takes this personal, I will say, this is not for those that have tried and their cats won´t stay in and have actually taken the pain to ensure that they cause as little disturbance as possible to the people they are imposing their pets on.

The moment you put "My" infront of the word cat then we enter into rights and duties. It is not only to come here, put nice pics of your cat or tell us a funny story. You have the responsibility to that animal to try your best to make sure he isn´t hit by a car, stolen, beaten, killed and yes that he doesn´t go where he is not wanted. That is why it is "Your cat". You are not sharing him with your neighbour or the whole community, just you. I see a lot of intolerance for the feelings of those who do not wish to have a cat that has an owner in their garden, it´s like we can´t put ourselves in their place. If someone kills your cat for being in their property, much as I feel that person is a psycho with capital letters, if that cat has an owner, that person also shares the blame. Whatever happens to your cat outside your house, when you dont know where he goes or what he does has to do with you.
People complain that their neighbours let their cats in or feed them, how did the cat get to the neighbours property? well in the spirit of freedom, your cat is free to roam, your neighbour is free to take him in, free to feed him and free to do whatever, it´s a two way street. It´s not one rule for me and what is convenient for me and another for the rest.
In my freedom to express myself, this is what I feel. I´m not going to change anyone´s mind and nobody will change my mind, there should be laws for cat owners, they should be held accountable for the cats that are registered in their name. If you go to a shelter to get a cat or you buy one, it doesn´t matter if it´s a Justa or a breed, you have a responsibility to that member of your family and no one would let their kids stay out without knowing where they are or what they are doing or just open the door for them in the morning and put them out into the world, cats are not children, I know but for those of us who consider them as members of our families, we have to do the best by them.
If your neighbour likes your cat in their garden, if you won´t mind that they feed them and let them in, if when they are hit by a car you´ll ccept it as part of life, if when your mean neighbour puts out poison for the cats they are tired of seeing and yours in one of the casualities...If you are open to all these happening then do as you like but personally, I´m not.

For those who feel that cats are such free spirits and should not be confined, I do wonder why we have cats then. They should just all be strays, everyone feeds and cares for and nobody should have them indoors. As for me Merlin is "My cat", I don´t share my rights or my duties.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> My reasons are not environmental as I feel the first destroyer is man. Mine are for the cat´s safety, my neigbour´s happiness and my peace of mind.
> 
> Before anyone takes this personal, I will say, this is not for those that have tried and their cats won´t stay in and have actually taken the pain to ensure that they cause as little disturbance as possible to the people they are imposing their pets on.
> 
> ...


I couldn't aggree more :>


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Good point, JKF, and one I should have touched on more. We humans are the single biggest destroyer of the ecosystem and there's no getting around it, but to be honest, as someone else has already outlined, we do contribute to this by allowing our cats out (re vaccinations, keeping them healthy, tipping the balance etc).

For me, as JKF has already said, theft is a big reason as to why I keep my cats in, but there are others. They are entire, so to let them out would add to the already huge population of cats, and would not further my breed, so more cats would end up in rescue or on the streets compounding the problem. They'd be at risk of disease, poisoning, being run over, finding cruel people, death by dog, adoption by another neighbour... The list goes on. I'm very ashamed to say that although wildlife is on my list, it's quite far down it.

Now, I have no problem with folks who let cats roam as long as they don't impact on other peoples' propperty. I have, for example, a friend who allows her cat out, but that cat always returns home to use the litter tray, so isn't soiling in other people's gardens or inconveniencing them.

The real problem for me comes when someone else's pet impacts negatively on me, and they can't or won't stop it happening.

And yep... Hand is hurting a lot now, so I may just read and lurk rather than writing a long reply again.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Good point, JKF, and one I should have touched on more. We humans are the single biggest destroyer of the ecosystem and there's no getting around it, but to be honest, as someone else has already outlined, we do contribute to this by allowing our cats out (re vaccinations, keeping them healthy, tipping the balance etc).
> 
> For me, as JKF has already said, theft is a big reason as to why I keep my cats in, but there are others. They are entire, so to let them out would add to the already huge population of cats, and would not further my breed, so more cats would end up in rescue or on the streets compounding the problem. They'd be at risk of disease, poisoning, being run over, finding cruel people, death by dog, adoption by another neighbour... The list goes on. I'm very ashamed to say that although wildlife is on my list, it's quite far down it.
> 
> ...


Like my aunt, her 2 cats go out and they have 3 litter trays at home that they use, their neighbours like them and it is a closed estate so they are safe but they have their freedom and no one complains.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Fact is, when you take something on as a pet, you take responsibility with it. If you don't think a pet should be confined, it's simple. Let it live wild, don't take it on as a pet.


I took pity on a certain cat who was living on the street. I feed him, I let him sleep in the house, I groom him and I play with him. I take photos of him and share them here on the forum. I buy him gifts. I concern myself with his health and his quality of life. He enjoys spending time with me. He's domesticated and a pleasure to have around. But he's not my cat, he doesn't belong to me, I didn't buy him, he's not tagged, he comes and goes as he pleases. I will not imprison him. He's a part of the local 'ecosystem' and has been since long before he started visiting us, with all that that entails.

He wears a collar in case anyone wants to contact me about him, because I care about him, but I won't confine him against his will. He's not a dog or a horse or a rabbit, and I think that he has some rights too, and real physiological/psychological needs to continue to live his own natural life outdoors. I will not compromise that, and I take great exception to anyone who tells me that I should, and that I'm wrong not to do so, even that laws should be created to compel me to do so. I take offence at that, for myself and on his behalf.

The neighbours can cope with him, just as they cope with seagulls and pigeons and foxes and squirrels. If any of them has a problem with wildlife and the animals present in our shared environment, I pity them. If any of them came to me with a complaint about 'my' cat, I'd be glad to sit them down and to explain the situation.

There are a lot of very simplistic and selfish arguments being proposed on this thread, but as yet no one is insisting on laws to compel the keepers of indoor cats to give them their freedom, and we can all applaud that. Life isn't quite so simple, and there's more than one way to provide what's best for a cat. A one-size-fits-all prejudice is never very helpful.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I thought I'd just said that I have no problem with outties as long as the owner is responsible and teaches them to come back and use the tray indoors? Or at the very least, provides them with suitable facilities to encourage them to toilet indoors... But then, perhaps it wasn't clear enough.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> I took pity on a certain cat who was living on the street. I feed him, I let him sleep in the house, I groom him and I play with him. I take photos of him and share them here on the forum. I buy him gifts. I concern myself with his health and his quality of life. He enjoys spending time with me. He's domesticated and a pleasure to have around. But he's not my cat, he doesn't belong to me, I didn't buy him, he's not tagged, he comes and goes as he pleases. I will not imprison him. He's a part of the local 'ecosystem' and has been since long before he started visiting us, with all that that entails.
> 
> He wears a collar in case anyone wants to contact me about him, because I care about him, but I won't confine him against his will. He's not a dog or a horse or a rabbit, and I think that he has some rights too, and real physiological/psychological needs to continue to live his own natural life outdoors. I will not compromise that, and I take great exception to anyone who tells me that I should, and that I'm wrong not to do so, even that laws should be created to compel me to do so. I take offence at that, for myself and on his behalf.
> 
> ...


Yet your fine that he may get run over 1 day or stolen he kill someone elses pet?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Yet your fine that he may get run over 1 day or stolen he kill someone elses pet?


That is a different matter altogether. Like I -and several others - have stated, it may in certain cases be necessary to protect a cat by catproofing one's property. But it is a shame humans have created an environment so warped this should be necessary. I would very much prefer laws to force humans to make the world safer and bealthier for cats - AND children, wildlife, and creatures in general, to laws restricting their freedom even morein order to suit the selfjsh 'needs' of humanity.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> That is a different matter altogether. Like I -and several others - have stated, it may in certain cases be necessary to protect a cat by catproofing one's property. But it is a shame humans have created an environment so warped this should be necessary. I would very much prefer laws to force humans to make the world safer and bealthier for cats - AND children, wildlife, and creatures in general, to laws restricting their freedom even morein order to suit the selfjsh 'needs' of humanity.


Its precislely the point!

Can't have it both ways you either accept resonsability or you don't.

If you let your cat roam you can't be that responsable person because your putting your cat at risk.

Why should other owners sacrifice theirs pets safety for yours?

A good dog owner makes sure their dog has a secure garden so they don't roam they are fined if their dog gets out and they wind up at the pound.

If their dog winds up at the pound the dog is destroyed after a certain time period unless a nice rescue can take the dog.

If a dog owners dog poos on your lawn or in other restricted areas the owner is fined.

A cat does not need to be outside and your cat did not ask you to provide it with home or give them permission to go outside. You took on that decission when you brought your cat home yet your quite to risk your cats safety and well being just for some freedom.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Yet your fine that he may get run over 1 day or stolen he kill someone elses pet?


No, since you ask. I'm not fine with him getting run over, stolen or killing anyone's pet. I would not be fine with that, I would be very sad about any or all of it. Hope that's clear. Thanks for asking.

But it's no reason to shut him up in the house, or a cage him in the garden. I don't have any right to do that, and _it would cause him to suffer_. I hope you can understand that.

You know Prowl, if you'd prefer to live in a world without cats ever being seen walking on garden fences, sitting on roofs or sunning themselves on pavements because they're all stuck inside like rabbits or hamsters then you're very welcome to it. I think it would be a further degradation of our environment, another artificial human construct at the expense of nature, and a cruelty to all cats who have grown up with the freedom to roam.

I might add that if I was in the market for a kitten I'd try to bring it up to be content to live indoors. I had one before who lived like that, happily. I do see the benefits. But calling for legal prohibitions on all free-roaming cats is another thing entirely and indicates a disturbingly illiberal attitude, seems to me.

Comparisons with dogs are disturbing too. You'd think that here on the cat forum we'd understand the fundamental differences between them.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> *No, since you ask. I'm not fine with him getting run over, stolen or killing anyone's pet. I would not be fine with that, I would be very sad about any or all of it. Hope that's clear. Thanks for asking. *
> 
> But it's no reason to shut him up in the house, or a cage him in the garden. I don't have any right to do that, and _it would cause him to suffer_. I hope you can understand that.
> 
> ...


Yet your happy to let him
If you look at things differently you will see that dogs and cats are very similar now in todays world.

Many years ago dogs were allowed to roam free until laws were introduced to stop them from causing damage or hurting themselves.

Its no longer the nice quiet world were everyone could let their cats out to roam and be carefree now their is this knew knowledge of what our cats get up to when the leave the cat flap and we don't like it. Many cat owners can't come to terms that their are are all these new dangers such as roads, foxes and yes even dogs and people that would do harm to our beloved moggies. Cats no longer need to go outside and its time that cat owners stepped up to that responsability. We like them pottering about our fences and sunning themselves on our roofs enjoying themselves but thats not the only thing they get up to when outside.

A nice home provides everything, safety included which the outisde does not. The minute that felix leaves the catflap that safety is gone and yet so many cat owners are with that.

The second felix leves his cat flap his owner stops being a responsable owner just as a dog owner stops responsable when they let their dog out to roam by themselves (latch key dogs and they still exist)

Dogs and cats are now very similar in their needs and requirements. A secure garden, meals every day and vet care when needed a lap to sit on (even if fido is a Mastif)

Should the laws be similar to keeping cats more under control? This will help keep the cat population down as rescues are now full to bursting because cats breed so fast. 
Mandatory neutering and curfews would certainly help keep numbers down and the population healthy and managable. Lots of feral cats are out their because their let out to roam and at some point cats have got pregnant and had kittens elsewere.

Sadly their are a number homeless cats with no one to care for them wonder how they got out?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Its precislely the point!
> 
> Can't have it both ways you either accept resonsability or you don't.
> 
> ...


I think your entire argument shows you know very little about the nature of cats.

SOME cats can live indoors and be entirely happy, but some will not even come inside unless absolutely necessary.

Taking responsibility means offering your cat a home where he can be happy.
I deliberately take on cats that do not take well to indoor life, because I live in a relatively safe and cat-friendly area. If I lived in an urban area with busy roads, where it would be too unsafe to let them out at all, I simply *could not have taken on* most of the cats I have now. Most of them were born in the wild or on the street and have at least one feral parent. They are difficult to rehome for that very reason, and some of them were in the rescue for quite a long time, as they needed more space and freedom than many people are in a position to offer.

Tosca was born feral, and still is a feral cat at heart, even though she loves and trusts us and will come in for food and, if the weather is bad, shelter.

But when she had an injury that would not heal, a couple of years ago, which forced us to keep her indoors for months on end, she pined away. The sadness and despair in her eyes were heartwrenching.

In the end I asked the vet to either do a skin transplant to close the wound so she could go out and roam her park beloved again, or to put her to sleep. It just would be too cruel to allow her to be so desperately unhappy for an extended period of time. She was wasting away before my eyes.

They did the transplant, and within a week she was out and about again, and pleased as punch. I have never seen a happier cat in all my life. Her eyes shone again, she played again, and she ate like a horse. And she hardly came home. If we wanted to see her, we had to go to the park. She would come in to eat while we were in bed, and if we locked the cat flap so she could not get out, she would come and wake me to open it for her.

And you claim the responsible thing for me would be to force her to live indoors all her life? It would be horribly, wantonly cruel to do so.

Romeo could probably cope with indoor living and a cat run quite well, even though he was born at a campsite, but Xena, who comes from the same camp site, is a regular little tramp, as is Connor, who will even try to jump out the upstairs window if he cannot get out in any other way.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Yet your happy to let him


Happy to let him outside? Yes.
Happy to let him be run over, etc.? No.

I can't believe I'm having to spell that out.

PS On a lighter note, here's someone else's cat having an interesting time in the great outdoors, in Italy, yesterday:

[youtube_browser]f1KvGsI048s[/youtube_browser]

Oops!


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> I think your entire argument shows you know very little about the nature of cats.
> 
> SOME cats can live indoors and be entirely happy, but some will not even come inside unless absolutely necessary.
> 
> ...


Yet if your cat had lived an indoor life they would not have got injured the first place.

If I had a feral cat they would be an indoor cat I would be hugely worried they would run off for days.

Feral cats would not exist in the first place if people kept their cats in and neutered them.

Everytime you argue back it just gives me more reason to believe that cats are not all that suited to an outdoor life. I am well aware of the nature of cats its US that choose to let them out give them human personalities and generally humanise them and ignore our responsabilities as pet owners. We can't take care of our cats when they leave their cat flap.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Haven't bothered commenting on this thread since my last post as could't be bothered into getting into an indoor V free roaming cat debate but it is getting a bit silly now isn't it?! 

Because some people believe cats should be free roaming that also means they should also agree that Lizards, Ginny pigs and the like should also be free roaming? ha, that did make me laugh.
Stating a poster would be happy about their cat getting hit by a car because they allow the cat to have freedom?? 

There is a big ferrel cat population but as long as free roaming cats are neuterted it doesn't matter then does it.

Prowl are you one of them dog owners who doesn't allow their dog off the lead down the park or whether you walk him/her? (Gorgeous dog by the way)


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Yet your happy to let him
> If you look at things differently you will see that dogs and cats are very similar now in todays world.
> 
> Many years ago dogs were allowed to roam free until laws were introduced to stop them from causing damage or hurting themselves.
> ...


 You know I think you believe a cat is a dog? I don't think you understand there is a fundamental difference between a pack animal and a solitary animal. The law understands there is a world of difference and therefore differentiates but apparently you know better. 
Just a point but there are many cats abandoned and given back to homes because owners try to keep cats in sometimes against their will and end up with behavioural issues such as weeing, soiling and instead of recognising that they have a stressed animal they end up running to the nearest shelter. 
You also assume that every person who lets their cat out is in someway an irresponsible oik who doesn't care about their pet. How ignorant. As stated before some people believe it is cruel to confine a cat that wants to be out and put its emotional and mental needs at the top of their priorities. Some people are able to take the balanced view that life is full of risks and we aren't God and we do not have the right to imprison our pet.
You know not one outdoor cat owner has said during this debate that all cats should be allowed out so why do you insist on making such one sided statements?


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Yet if your cat had lived an indoor life they would not have got injured the first place.
> 
> If I had a feral cat they would be an indoor cat I would be hugely worried they would run off for days.
> 
> ...


 I don't humanize my cat, neither do most sane people actually. That's why I don't call him my 'baby'. He is a cat and the most loving thing I can do for him is let him have a cats life which in his case means his freedom. I am prepared to take risks everyday. Who the hell am I not to allow him live his life?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I never said anything about how she got injured, you only ASSUME she was hurt outdoors. Just like you assume a lot of things you do not know, and once again, you assumed wrong.

In fact, she got her wound indoors, she tried to get on top of a cupboard, and caught herself on something.

I suppose you also want all children to be kept indoors, never learning to ride a bike or play on a swing. They, too, might fall off and get hurt, even crack their skull. Getting onto a train or a plane is a risk, engaging in a relationship is a risk, getting out of bed is a risk, even breathing is a risk.
Taking calculated risks is inherent to life, and if we eliminated all risk, life itself would become a prison, and not worth living.

Confine yourself to a safe little cage if you must, but do not demand others to do so. If we'd follow your reasoning, we would have to turn all living creatures into miserable prisoners 'for their own good'.

You must really adore an oldfashioned zoo, with all animals neatly locked up in cages. To me, a caged animal, ANY caged animal, is an absolute horror, an abomination. Animals should be as free as possible. They were created free by a power far greater than us, and any need to restrict that freedom because of the kind of place WE turned this world into is something to be utterly ashamed of, NOT something to proudly and arrogantly advocate.

Taking responsibility for an animal includes offering it as much freedom to be who and what it was created to be and live true to its nature as possible.

I would never imprison a cat that is obviously miserable indoors. However much I would hate to see them injured or killed, I am not going to force them into a life that may - or may not - be longer, but is clearly unbearable to them.

You simply refuse to admit that being locked up is inherently unnatural for any animal and any need to even consider such an action is a blemish on all of humanity.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> My reasons are not environmental as I feel the first destroyer is man. Mine are for the cat´s safety, my neigbour´s happiness and my peace of mind.
> 
> Before anyone takes this personal, I will say, this is not for those that have tried and their cats won´t stay in and have actually taken the pain to ensure that they cause as little disturbance as possible to the people they are imposing their pets on.
> 
> The moment you put "My" infront of the word cat then we enter into rights and duties. It is not only to come here, put nice pics of your cat or tell us a funny story. You have the responsibility to that animal to try your best to make sure he isn´t hit by a car, stolen, beaten, killed and yes that he doesn´t go where he is not wanted. That is why it is "Your cat". You are not sharing him with your neighbour or the whole community, just you. I see a lot of intolerance for the feelings of those who do not wish to have a cat that has an owner in their garden, it´s like we can´t put ourselves in their place. If someone kills your cat for being in their property, much as I feel that person is a psycho with capital letters, if that cat has an owner, that person also shares the blame.


 I have to say I take exception to the point that I share the blame if some psycho kills my cat. If you were to carry that argument to its logical conclusion then its a parents fault if a child is killed because they let them out. No really is it? A psycho is a pyscho, they are 100 % to blame.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl, it is high time you read up on some fundamental biology.

What you fail to understand is that all animals are wild by nature. Some species of pack animals can be tamed because, by the nature of their species, they answer to a leader, and we, humans, choose to pose as that leader. If that pack animal accepts us as their leader, they will willingly accept our lead. Such animals can truly be called domestic pets.

However, solitary animals, and social animals that do not live as a pack with a well-defined hierarchy, may choose to share our lives and accept some level of care from us, but they will never be fully, truly domesticated. 

A dog has a master, but a cat has a slave.
And as a slave, you will have to respect your lord and master's wishes.
You will never own a cat, the cat will own you.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I have to say I take exception to the point that I share the blame if some psycho kills my cat. If you were to carry that argument to its logical conclusion then its a parents fault if a child is killed because they let them out. No really is it? A psycho is a pyscho, they are 100 % to blame.


Of course, killing an animal that annoys you is not at all a normal reaction and definitely not right, at the end with everything its the animal that suffers but I feel that is why we humans should look ahead and protect our pets. I´m going to bow out of this argument it just seems like we find it difficult to understand each others views and I´m sure both sides are making valid points. At the end of the day we make decisions and we should live with the consecuences, letting out our pets, or not. Each to their own.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Of course, killing an animal that annoys you is not at all a normal reaction and definitely not right, at the end with everything its the animal that suffers but I feel that is why we humans should look ahead and protect our pets. I´m going to bow out of this argument it just seems like we find it difficult to understand each others views and I´m sure both sides are making valid points. At the end of the day we make decisions and we should live with the consecuences, letting out our pets, or not. Each to their own.


I for one, do not disagree with you at all.
In certain circumstances, it is better to keep a cat indoors.

I only disagree with people who claim every cat should always be kept indoors, and who claim it is is natural to keep animals confined. You confine your cat out of necessity, and you have chosen a cat that is happy as an indoor cat.
That is responsible cat ownership.

In my opinion, keeping a cat that is not suited to an indoor life confined is not. Where I live, cats are relatively safe, which is why I tend to choose cats that crave the outdoors. I take responsibility for cats that could not be rehomed with people in your situation, just like you take responsibility for a cat that does thrive on an indoor life.

They do run some risk in going out, of course, but even an indoor cat does. A friend of mine had two indoor cats. One of them jumped from the cupboard onto some wrapping paper on the worktop, slid down, paper and all, banged her head on the edge of the worktop and died....
A hugely traumatic experience, made even more traumatic because Amy was kept as a purely indoor cat mainly _because_ of her poor jumping skills. Her slave feared she would hurt herself jumping on and off fences and roofs, and then she killed herself in her 'safe' environment.

She now has a new cat, because Amy's brother missed his sis very much, and so far, she is an indoor kitty, too. But she is a lot more adventurous and inquisitive than little Amy, so I don't know if she will be able to keep her indoors, too.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Of course, killing an animal that annoys you is not at all a normal reaction and definitely not right, at the end with everything its the animal that suffers but I feel that is why we humans should look ahead and protect our pets.


Which is why I rehomed my feral Klaatu to a farm, where he could not raid other pets' food bowls and people's kitchens. It hurt me more than I can ever describe to have to 'dump' him, but he was absolutely unsuited to indoor life, he turned on the other cats, and even on us, and was thoroughly unhappy as an indoor cat, whereas you could see his unbridled joy and the strength of his character in the sparkle of his eye and the bounce in his gait when he had the freedom to be his own cat and patrol his territory.

But I could not allow him to aggrevate the neighbours and risk their retribution, so I found him another home, where he would be free and happy, and safe from angry dogs and humans.

Being free shortened his life, but at least he was happy, and he could be himself. And I have seen how utterly miserable and furious he was at being kept indoors. I am devastated at his death, but seeing him live a long, miserable life would have been even worse. He lived the way he wanted to live: free and happy, the undisputed lord of his vast territory.

That, too, is taking responsibility.


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## cat burglar (Jun 9, 2013)

Comparing free roaming cats to dogs is absurd. How many cat attacks have killed humans? Answer: 0. How many dog attacks have killed humans in the UK alone? Answer: 16 people have been killed by dogs from 2005 to date.

If *ALL* cats were happy and contented to be confined as 'house' cats, we'd not have to worry about leaving windows open for fear of said cat bolting for its freedom at the first given opportunity!

Dogs wouldn't bolt for freedom through open windows. Well, none of the dogs I've ever owned have tried/wanted to.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> Prowl, it is high time you read up on some fundamental biology.
> 
> What you fail to understand is that all animals are wild by nature. Some species of pack animals can be tamed because, by the nature of their species, they answer to a leader, and we, humans, choose to pose as that leader. If that pack animal accepts us as their leader, they will willingly accept our lead. Such animals can truly be called domestic pets.
> 
> ...


Bahahahahaha sorry I had to laugh :>

Your failing to realise that cats are very much domesticated animals they don't have need to be wild anymore then a dog does.

As a pet owner you fail at being responsable the minute your cat leaves your house just as a dog owner fails at being a responsable owner when they let their dog out the front door unsupervised.

The two animals are different but their care is exactly the same a nice house, a secure garden, good food, regular meals, vetinary care when needed and of course love.

You do all those nice things for your pets but can't do the same for a cat because YOU think its ok to let your cat roam. Your cat did not ask you to give him a loving him you did that when you brought him home. You made that decission just as you can make the same decission to keep them yet you feel your cat needs to roam to be free. When you let your cat outside your cat does not make that decission you do you choose to let your cat roam.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Bahahahahaha sorry I had to laugh :>
> 
> Your failing to realise that cats are very much domesticated animals they don't have need to be wild anymore then a dog does.
> 
> ...


To be fair, a dog can't climb fences like a cat can so it's alot easier to make your garden dog-proof... that does NOT of course mean that a cat *has* to climb fences though...! A cat does have a need or an instinct and an ability to be a very good climber, but of course a cat-proof garden should include perches to climb so long as it cannot climb out.

A dog's care should not be described as the same as a cat, because many people think that means they can eat the same things too, which they can't. A dog should be taken for daily walks even with a secure garden, too. And their mental and emotional needs from their owners are also very different so it is unwise to lump them together.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Your failing to realise that cats are very much domesticated animals *they don't have need to be wild anymore then a dog does*.
> 
> You really don't understand about cats do you?
> 
> ...


............................


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I just want to highlight a very serious & incredibly nasty hazard to cats that are allowed to free roam in the countryside > Snares. Goodness knows how many disappeared cats may have suffered a horrible end caught in one of these barbaric things!.

Snarewatch - Snarewatch is a reporting facility for snares in the UK

.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

CoCoTrio 

Such rubbish!


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> They do run some risk in going out, of course, but even an indoor cat does. A friend of mine had two indoor cats. One of them jumped from the cupboard onto some wrapping paper on the worktop, slid down, paper and all, banged her head on the edge of the worktop and died....
> A hugely traumatic experience, made even more traumatic because Amy was kept as a purely indoor cat mainly _because_ of her poor jumping skills. Her slave feared she would hurt herself jumping on and off fences and roofs, and then she killed herself in her 'safe' environment.


we had an elderly cat that due to a downfall in her mental state weed on an extension plug that was plugged into the lizards tank. Could have had fried lizard and a cat. They do say more accidents occur inside the home than outside.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> CoCoTrio
> 
> Such rubbish!


Excellent! That's that all settled then, eh?

The _coup de grâce _of deductive reasoning!

Well done. :thumbsup:


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> CoCoTrio
> 
> Such rubbish!


The only rubbish I have read on this thread is your total disrespect for the animals' identity. Your deeply patronizing attitude towards them smacks of the colonial attitude towards indiginous peoples. You really seem to think of our fellow creatures in terms of ownership, whereas cat people think in terms of sharing their lives with a fellow creature on a basis of mutual consent and respect. 
I have no desire to own another living being, human or animal. In fact, I find the concept of ownership in the sense of controlling their lives absolutely appalling.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Who do yo think you are, Prowl, to decide animals don't need to be wild?Are you God? Even He would not dare make that assumption. Animals have as much right to be free as humans. They should be allowed to share our lives out of volition, not because we force them to.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Bahahahahaha sorry I had to laugh :>
> 
> Your failing to realise that cats are very much domesticated animals they don't have need to be wild anymore then a dog does.
> 
> ...


 What a ridiculous argument- I made the decision to let my cat roam?? I made him go and find a territory did I? I have in someway influenced his true nature? I can equally say that you have made a decision to become a jailer and have no interest in whether it makes the cat content or not, the cat (any cat, ) will be locked up for their own good! For your own good more like because you obviously need to be control and can't handle the unknown.
Are you scared of death, because if you are I assure you an indoor cat will die too one day however much cotton wool you wrap them up in. If the cat that you imprison is a cat that is desperate to be out and he lives to be 20 and miserable for most of the time will you congratulate yourself on his long life or will you look back and think of all the sunny days he was stuck in and all the times he cried at the window or door? Personally I could not live with that guilt.
Have you even got a cat Prowl? One wonders what creatures you have got locked up with you..


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Clearly none of you know your cats because cats are in fact DOMESTICATED look it up they are not wild animals!!!


Everytime I hear someone argue back I just hear a load of rubbish and not a very responsable pet owner.

Wonder how long before the thread is locked because a few people can't accept the facts.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Clearly none of you know your cats because cats are in fact DOMESTICATED look it up they are not wild animals!!!
> 
> Everytime I hear someone argue back I just hear a load of rubbish and not a very responsable pet owner.
> 
> Wonder how long before the thread is locked because a few people can't accept the facts.


 Prowl you are right. Everyone else is wrong. The majority of the British cat owning population bow down to your superior knowledge. Also the law regarding roaming cats is wrong and of course must be changed ASAP. You clearly know all there is to know about cats and everyone who challenges that opinion is a moron.
By the way you never answered my question, do you have a cat?


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Clearly none of you know your cats because cats are in fact DOMESTICATED look it up they are not wild animals!!!
> 
> Everytime I hear someone argue back I just hear a load of rubbish and not a very responsable pet owner.
> 
> Wonder how long before the thread is locked *because a few people can't accept the facts*.


Please give us some facts! We're all here to learn.

It would be helpful if you could discriminate between accepted scientific facts, personal experience, unfounded guesswork and indefensible prejudice. References are always useful.

I'm looking forward to reading the facts that you can provide us with, and to being disabused of the belief that _not all cats would benefit from being permanently confined._ I believe that is your premise, but if you'd like to refine that, go ahead.

Over to you, Prowl.

Let's keep this civil, eh, and not get locked down.

Just give us the facts. 

PS credit to Prowl for continuing the crusade whilst the others have dropped out.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I second that Coco! I actually admire Prowl for having the guts to stick to his/her guns. A trait to be admired whether you agree with them or not.. I just want hear some facts not sweeping statements and I would love to know about Prowls cat and how he/she (sorry don't know??) manages their indoor cat and keeps them entertained..


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't have a cat so no idea or view on the keep in or out debate. 

Just wanted to comment on the comparing dogs to cats it was said they both just need a home, garden, food etc I think if anyone ventured into dog chat saying it was sufficient to let your dog out in the garden the thread would be a war zone and closed pretty pronto (unless your garden was acres that is)


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Both mine are indoor cats as are many pedigrees. Mine are happy, I have a shelving system, sctraching, posts door hanging toys etc. we interact with them wether it's playing or chatting(yes I speak to them) or simply cuddle up.


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## catgeoffrey (Jun 28, 2012)

Wow! Just caught up on this thread! 
I'm not going to get "involved" - I have a cat that does roam (he cries when we shut him in so moving house was a nightmare!) and one that doesn't leave the garden and I can confirm that he doesn't leave the garden as he's supervised because he's a softy!
Anyway, I think there is no point taking it personally about whether cats should roam or not. If they are roaming they should clearly be neutered but at times people need to agree to disagree.
That's my piece!


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

I have had 2 cats in my life time one lived to the age of 20 (near their)

Binx who was a rescue cat and had part ragdoll was sadly run over after 1 year the dustbin men got the number off her collar which was still on her when she died :<


I hope to get a rescue cat in the future though re thinking the idea as I would not want a free roaming cat. (OMG what a nasty thought!:biggrin5

Unsure how that would work yes I know many rescues won't allow a cat to go to a home without a garden to call its own which is wrong. Lots of people keep cats in apartments with no garden they get on fine. Lots of cats are kept in cat runs and they lead perfectly happy lives. 

The countryfile programe did raise some good points about cats which are true. In other countries they have mandatory curfews, neutering and microchipping in order to control numbers. 

I'm suprised (not really) that I am being accused of making sweeping statements when I have seen quite a few being made I especially like cats are wild animals :001_rolleyes:


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I second that Coco! I actually admire Prowl for having the guts to stick to his/her guns. A trait to be admired whether you agree with them or not.. I just want hear some facts not sweeping statements and I would love to know about Prowls cat and how he/she (sorry don't know??) manages their indoor cat and keeps them entertained..


I would agree with you if Prowl would have the decency to answer to other people's statements and experiences with facts, and with respect, instead of just dismissing it all as rubbish, IF (s)he sees fit to respond at all.

But while other people have been free with their experience and knowledge, in defending both views, Prowl has only been condescending, prejudiced and downright rude.

There is nothing in there for me to admire at all. All I see is prejudice, shortsightedness and arrogance. And a very patronizing view of our relationship with the rest of creation.

I cannot help wondering how old Prowl is. The more I read, the more I get the impression we are dealng with a schoolkid.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

If cats are neutered, then numbers can be controlled. I don't see why my cats will have to be made to stay indoors, they don't go near the road.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl why do you think rescues generally won't allow people in apartments to have cats? Do you think they are being cruel for the sake of it or do you think its because it is not perhaps in the cats best interest to live indoors 24/7. We wouldn't like it would we?
If you notice many of the people on this forum who keep cats in runs have pedigrees and have had their cats since kittenhood. Taking on a previously roaming cat and expecting them to adapt to confinement is a whole new ball game. You are turning their whole world inside out and could cause immense stress and suffering to the cat, hence rescues will generally not allow their cats to be rehomed as indoor. If you love cats why would you want to cause potential suffering? Have a cat that is suitable for indoor living, do your research. Its all very noble taking on a rescue except it isn't if you ruin their life is it?
I do understand that it must have been horrific for you to lose a cat that was run over but try and get some balance here. It is not right to imprison an animal against their will because you can't cope with the uncertain. I would suggest getting a pet that you can control to some extent. Everyone will be happy!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

CoCoTrio said:


> PS credit to Prowl for continuing the crusade whilst the others have dropped out.


As a member who has commented once on this thread and "liked" many other posts I don't see it as a crusade so have no need to keep repeating myself  it wont change anybody's opinions .


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm enjoying following this thread, keeping the popcorn out lol! When I got my female black rescue Jess, I was told to keep her in for a few weeks when she had her vaccination restart. This actually made her more afraid to go out so I ended up having an indoor cat, but I get the feeling she probably adapted easier than some other cats do to living indoors. I couldn't tempt her to go out until the weather got better (I got her in October and she didn't start going out til the spring). So when I got my male rescue I let him go out knowing Jess was already vaccinated, he'd been out all his life without any jabs as far as I know, and he didn't stray far out of the garden at first anyway.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Everytime you argue back it just gives me more reason to believe that cats are not all that suited to an outdoor life.


I really should know better, but had to pick up on this one. Cats are not suited to an outdoor life? Well, that may be true for some of the less survival-wise pedigree breeds (a Persian breeder friend of mine freely admits her lot were behind the door when the brains were handed out!), but moggies have been living wild a lot longer than after we first invented houses. As has pretty much every domesticated species in existance, too - they were all originally wild, and many are a lot closer to reverting to those wild ways than we like to think.

Nor are cats the only species we keep who are allowed out to free roam - a chap up the road from me has racing pigeons, and lets them out every day for exercise; I see the flock going over frequently. Each time he lets them out they are at risk from the local sparrowhawks and kestrels and idiots with air rifles, so should he keep them in at all times? Or maybe have to build a warehouse size enclosure just so they are not at risk when they exercise? Or should he just not let them out at all and keep them in their cages all the time?

But back to cats. I do agree that cats should be neutered, and that some cats are perfectly happy to be indoors. _But_, not all cats take to an indoor life, or even an outdoor run.

For example, my first cat, Charlie-girl, is a second hand cat, and came to me at the age of five from a family who had to rehome their two cats after their new landlord refused to let them have their cats. I'd never had a cat before, but no-one wanted Charlie, so I adopted her.

Now, at her old home, Charlie had roamed freely over adjacent fields for much of the day, so had never been used to an indoor life, and keeping her in for two months whilst she transitioned to her new location was hard - she was longing to be out, to the extent I had to catch her several times during attempts to dive out windows or doors. I did try a lead and harness with her, but she really didn't like it - letting her roam was the only way she was - IS - going to be happy. Keeping her in for five weeks earlier this year due to a tail injury (acquired on the back patio four feet from the back door, before you ask), and also recently whilst she bonds with my new kitten has been really, really trying for her - right now she is spending an hour a day begging to go out, and is thoroughly frustrated. Unfortunately she has only a limited interest in toys, so entertaining her indoors is not at all easy.

So, as she is so obviously unhappy being indoor cat (and if she was happy to be an indoor cat, I'd be happy to have her as one) what should I do? If I keep her in, she hates it and gets depressed. I can't build a run (my garden is not suited to it, and she wouldn't like to be that confined anyway), and catproofing the garden would be impossible due to backing on to five different gardens with lots of overhanging trees and shrubs, and not all of the fence is mine either. I live right at the end of a pretty quiet estate, the neighbours mainly all like her, the one who doesn't like cats in their garden knows I am OK with her being handclapped out, and she comes back to do her business in the litter trays too, so why shouldn't she have the freedom she so obviously craves? Yes, it is a risk for her to be out, but she genuinely is SO much happier when she is allowed out every day (I don't have a cat flap, she has to be let in and out by me) - she's a different cat!

Or, to put the question bluntly, if the government were to agree with you and decree that from tomorrow all cats except farm cats must be kept indoors, what is your solution for cats who, despite all efforts, find it impossible to adjust to a caged life? We obviously can't rehome them all as barn cats on a farm, so what, then, do we do with them if we don't want to force them to live the rest of their days miserable and frustrated?

Oh, and can we have pics of your cat please? Pretty please?


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2013)

Marycat said:


> Prowl why do you think rescues generally won't allow people in apartments to have cats? Do you think they are being cruel for the sake of it or do you think its because it is not perhaps in the cats best interest to live indoors 24/7. We wouldn't like it would we?
> If you notice many of the people on this forum who keep cats in runs have pedigrees and have had their cats since kittenhood. Taking on a previously roaming cat and expecting them to adapt to confinement is a whole new ball game. You are turning their whole world inside out and could cause immense stress and suffering to the cat, hence rescues will generally not allow their cats to be rehomed as indoor. If you love cats why would you want to cause potential suffering? Have a cat that is suitable for indoor living, do your research. Its all very noble taking on a rescue except it isn't if you ruin their life is it?
> I do understand that it must have been horrific for you to lose a cat that was run over but try and get some balance here. It is not right to imprison an animal against their will because you can't cope with the uncertain. I would suggest getting a pet that you can control to some extent. Everyone will be happy!


My only issue with previous comments is that some members are confusing facts for personal preferences then accusing me of making sweeping statements.

I would also like to add that I never said rescues were cruel I just disagree that they choose not let people with no garden adopt cats because of their policey which is wrong. Their are plenty of happy indoor cats so no I don't believe that cats are suffering as a result.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> My only issue with previous comments is that some members are confusing facts for personal preferences then accusing me of making sweeping statements.
> 
> I would also like to add that I never said rescues were cruel I just disagree that they choose not let people with no garden adopt cats because of their policey which is wrong. Their are plenty of happy indoor cats so no I don't believe that cats are suffering as a result.


There are plenty of happy indoor cats, and it is perfectly responsible and acceptable for people who can or will only keep indoor cat to acept such a cat. But there are also plenty of ats who cannot adapt to an indoor life, and it would be cruel to have these adopted as indoor cats. And it would be irresponsible for people living in cirumstances where the cat cannot go out to adopt such a cat.
But people living in an environment where these cats have the opportunity to go out are extremely responsible when offering a home to these cats instead of the ones that could well live as indoor pets and be happy.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> My only issue with previous comments is that some members are confusing facts for personal preferences then accusing me of making sweeping statements.
> 
> I would also like to add that I never said rescues were cruel I just disagree that they choose not let people with no garden adopt cats because of their policey which is wrong. Their are plenty of happy indoor cats so no I don't believe that cats are suffering as a result.


 I must say prowl it does make me laugh how you believe the majority of cat owners are wrong, the law is wrong and now the RSPCA and cats protection, etc is wrong. You have got it right and everyone else is wrong. What an ego you must have. 
As stated some cats must live indoors due to illness, age, being valuable pedigrees and if you notice most of the owners on this forum have gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure their cat has the best quality of life. However for some cats love can mean letting go and allowing your pet to enjoy their life, its freedom and respecting its natural urges and behaviour. To lock an healthy previously free roaming animal up is selfish in the extreme and in my opinion a twisted kind of love. It reminds me of men and women who control their partners lives and then say 'I only do it because I love you'. No they do it because they are needy and emotionally immature. You cannot own a person and you cannot own a cat. 
Believe me Prowl there is no nicer feeling than when your cat comes home and curls up beside you contented and you know that he has chosen to live with you, not because he is your prisoner.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I must say prowl it does make me laugh how you believe the majority of cat owners are wrong, the law is wrong and now the RSPCA and cats protection, etc is wrong. You have got it right and everyone else is wrong. What an ego you must have.
> As stated some cats must live indoors due to illness, age, being valuable pedigrees and if you notice most of the owners on this forum have gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure their cat has the best quality of life. However for some cats love can mean letting go and allowing your pet to enjoy their life, its freedom and respecting its natural urges and behaviour. To lock an healthy previously free roaming animal up is selfish in the extreme and in my opinion a twisted kind of love. *It reminds me of men and women who control their partners lives and then say 'I only do it because I love you'. No they do it because they are needy and emotionally immature. You cannot own a person and you cannot own a cat.*
> Believe me Prowl there is no nicer feeling than when your cat comes home and curls up beside you contented and you know that he has chosen to live with you, not because he is your prisoner.


This is so true.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Marycat said:


> To lock an healthy previously free roaming animal up is selfish in the extreme and in my opinion a twisted kind of love. *It reminds me of men and women who control their partners lives and then say 'I only do it because I love you'. No they do it because they are needy and emotionally immature. You cannot own a person and you cannot own a cat. *


What an odd thing to say.

Our rescue great dane (recently passed), had been living as a feral dog wandering a large state park area, helping himself to wildlife as well as local livestock to survive. He seemed perfectly happy as a free-roaming dog and it took authorities over 5 months to catch him.
When he came to us, we no longer let him roam free. He got plenty of off-leash time, lots of hiking and walking, but if we were not home, he was secured inside the house. 
I suppose that makes us needy and emotionally immature that we took away his previous freedom?

To clarify an inaccuracy I keep seeing... Dogs are not pack animals. They are social animals (as are cats). Left to their own devices, they do not pack up. They may pair up for a while and then part ways, they may congregate around resources like a bitch in heat or a food source, but they don't form packs. Dogs have no more need for a "master" than a cat does, and plenty of dogs do just fine left to their own devices in the wild. I see them all the time as we live in an area where dogs are frequently "dumped". Hence how we ended up with a feral pure-bred great dane.

I personally don't care if you choose to let your cat or dog free-roam, but know that once that animal is out of your sight, off your property, you have just given everyone else around the freedom to deal with that animal as they see fit. Around here, free roaming dogs get shot. Free roaming cats also get shot or they end up coyote food. Both get hit by cars, poisoned by antifreeze, snared by traps, attacked by other free-roamers and true wild animals...

To me it's not an issue of free-roaming but of responsibility. Once you take on an animal, you are responsible for the welfare of that animal and any potential damage they might do.
Years ago I had two of my horses get loose and go munch on the neighbor's lawn and lovely garden. Giant horse hoof divots in the grass. I offered to pay for damages because any damage my animals do is MY responsibility. 
If I let my dog free roam and he eats the neighbor's chickens, not only am I am responsible for the damage but I risk loosing my dog if the neighbor decides to shoot or poison the predator.

I don't see why it should be any different with cats. In town, children can't use the sand box in the park because the neighborhood cats use it as a toilet. How is that okay yet dog owners get fined if they let their dog roam and use the park for a toilet? 
Makes no sense to me....


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> What an odd thing to say.
> 
> Our rescue great dane (recently passed), had been living as a feral dog wandering a large state park area, helping himself to wildlife as well as local livestock to survive. He seemed perfectly happy as a free-roaming dog and it took authorities over 5 months to catch him.
> When he came to us, we no longer let him roam free. He got plenty of off-leash time, lots of hiking and walking, but if we were not home, he was secured inside the house.
> ...


 But you are talking about a dog that you rescued? ( a lovely thing to do by the way) A completely different animal. A dog is a pack animal, this is a well know fact?? Its a bit worrying that you don't know that seeing as you have a dog? When living with a family a dog will have a leader and a pecking order within a family. A cat answers to nobody, they are a solitary species in the sense that they do not see anyone in the family as their leader. I have had 3 dogs and 5 cats, believe me I know the difference. If a cat and a dog are the same then why do we not have blind guide cats or police cats? Because a cat would lead you up a tree or under a bus, they do not see their human as master, a dog does! Have you ever tried telling a cat to sit??

Please don't compare a dog to a cat, its like comparing a bird to a fish. They are unique.

In regards to cats toileting in the sandpit that is irresponsible owners not proving litter trays at home. But if going the toilet is a reason to lock an animal up then lets lock up every animal that cannot use an indoor toilet. Dog poo is a far worse issue than cat poo but I don't advocate locking every dog up because of a few irresponsible owners.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

For anyone who is unsure whether a dog is a pack animal or is unable to tell the difference between a cat and a dog.. read & learn! If you can find research that tells me a dog is not a pack animal and a cat has a pack mentality I will send you a tenner in the post 

Understanding Pack Mentality | PEDIGREE®

The social structure of cat life | international cat care


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I am reading and learning

Are Dogs Pack Animals? |


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Still doing it

Do Cat Families Have a Hierarchical Structure? | Catster


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> I am reading and learning
> 
> Are Dogs Pack Animals? |


 I knew somebody would do this!! One I do know for certain my dogs saw me as the boss, my cats certainly don't!!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Marycat said:


> But you are talking about a dog that you rescued? ( a lovely thing to do by the way) A completely different animal. A dog is a pack animal, this is a well know fact?? Its a bit worrying that you don't know that seeing as you have a dog? When living with a family a dog will have a leader and a pecking order within a family. A cat answers to nobody, they are a solitary species in the sense that they do not see anyone in the family as their leader. I have had 3 dogs and 5 cats, believe me I know the difference. If a cat and a dog are the same then why do we not have blind guide cats or police cats? Because a cat would lead you up a tree or under a bus, they do not see their human as master, a dog does! Have you ever tried telling a cat to sit??
> 
> Please don't compare a dog to a cat, its like comparing a bird to a fish. They are unique.
> 
> *In regards to cats toileting in the sandpit that is irresponsible owners not proving litter trays at home.* But if going the toilet is a reason to lock an animal up then lets lock up every animal that cannot use an indoor toilet. Dog poo is a far worse issue than cat poo but I don't advocate locking every dog up because of a few irresponsible owners.


LOL you don't think your cat will pee and poo elsewere when out and free to do as they please? Clearly you don't know cats!!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> What an odd thing to say.
> 
> Our rescue great dane (recently passed), had been living as a feral dog wandering a large state park area, helping himself to wildlife as well as local livestock to survive. He seemed perfectly happy as a free-roaming dog and it took authorities over 5 months to catch him.
> When he came to us, we no longer let him roam free. He got plenty of off-leash time, lots of hiking and walking, but if we were not home, he was secured inside the house.
> ...


I can only assume you have not read the entire thread (and I cannot blame you), but Prowl is stating that 'animals no longer need to be wild' and should therefore not be allowed any freedom whatsoever outside. The only way, according to Prowl, to take responsibility for a CAT is to keep him totally confined to your house and, if you have one, garden.

Prowl has apparently been so traumatized by losing a cat that their concerrns about a cat's safety have developed to a degree where they lost all sense of perspective and are reaching an obsessive level. So much so that they want to convince others they are being totally and utterly irresponsible in allowing a cat any natural freedom at all. Prowl compares cats with dogs, who, according to them, also don't need any freedom at all.

The entire development of this thread must be seen in the light of these obsessive-compulsive views.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it is interesting that animal behaviour is not fixed but may depend on circumstance - makes them a lot more interesting. My cats do see me as "chief cook and bottlewasher" and as part of their gang, if not actually as the boss! No idea about dogs.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> Still doing it
> 
> Do Cat Families Have a Hierarchical Structure? | Catster


 You are after a tenner aren't you??!! I still stand by cats and dogs are different. I would love to see the day when we have a police cat though


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Not disagreeing about cats and dogs being different - just trying to widen the debate!

I have a book upstairs called Police Cat Fuzz, he's pretty good at it
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XH15RFFML._.jpg


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

There is a lot of info out there .....Your tenner is not looking too safe

Is the domestic dog a true pack animal?


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Just imagine being arrested by a big furry tabby cat! It would almost make you want to break the law. And how cute would they look in a little tabard with 'police cat' on it?? Perhaps they could have a little gun? I'm being silly now.. always good to lighten it up! I must read that book Jones cat.. I would love it..

Meanwhile I am off to play 'fetch the ball' with my cat.. !! x


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Marycat said:


> But you are talking about a dog that you rescued? ( a lovely thing to do by the way) A completely different animal. A dog is a pack animal, this is a well know fact?? Its a bit worrying that you don't know that seeing as you have a dog? When living with a family a dog will have a leader and a pecking order within a family.


Nope, nope, nope and no. Dogs are not pack animals, dogs do not form a hierarchy, dogs do not have a pecking order. All defunct, incorrect information about dogs based on inaccurate studies of captive wolves (dogs are not wolves) who weren't behaving as they would in the wild anyway.



Marycat said:


> A cat answers to nobody, they are a solitary species in the sense that they do not see anyone in the family as their leader. I have had 3 dogs and 5 cats, believe me I know the difference. If a cat and a dog are the same then why do we not have blind guide cats or police cats? Because a cat would lead you up a tree or under a bus, they do not see their human as master, a dog does! Have you ever tried telling a cat to sit??


Clicker Trained Cat: 30 Amazing Cat Tricks - YouTube



Marycat said:


> Please don't compare a dog to a cat, its like comparing a bird to a fish. They are unique.


There are also similarities. Dogs have four legs, cats have four legs. Dogs have fur, cats have fur, dogs are terrestrial predators, cats are terrestrial predators... There are plenty of applicable comparisons to be made between the two. Not the least of which is someone else's cat soiling in my garden is just as gross as someone else's dog soiling in my garden.



Marycat said:


> In regards to cats toileting in the sandpit that is irresponsible owners not proving litter trays at home. But if going the toilet is a reason to lock an animal up then lets lock up every animal that cannot use an indoor toilet. Dog poo is a far worse issue than cat poo but I don't advocate locking every dog up because of a few irresponsible owners.


Where did I say cats should be locked up? I didn't did I? I said owners should be RESPONSIBLE. 
Please explain why dog poo is worse than cat poo?



Marycat said:


> For anyone who is unsure whether a dog is a pack animal or is unable to tell the difference between a cat and a dog.. read & learn! If you can find research that tells me a dog is not a pack animal and a cat has a pack mentality I will send you a tenner in the post


I suggest you educate yourself on the most recent research that unequivocally states dogs are not pack animals.
Start with some of Raymond Coppinger's stuff. But really any modern scientific study will do. David Mech himself has corrected his original information about "alpha" wolves.
Here is an actual scientific study on dogs and their social structure based on observable fact, not opinion:
The Social Organizatin of the Domestic Dog

More:
Is the domestic dog a true pack animal?


> The vast number of village dogs that scavenge human refuse dumps around the world fit the profile of the domestic dog as a non-pack animal perfectly. Some individuals do form closely bonded pairs based on mutual affection, but on the whole, solitary individuals and bonded pairs space themselves out within their environment and remain largely separate from one another.


Canine Behavior Myths Busted!


> Dogs are social animals and will gather in groups (generally around available food sources such as garbage dumps), however, the groups are loosely structured with animals joining and leaving randomly and frequently, a trait not found in wolf packs.
> 
> It is because of their social nature that domestic dogs fit so well into our families. However, all evidence indicates that dogs are not, in fact, pack animals.


Are Dogs Pack Animals? |


> Significant populations of free-ranging domestic dogs exist in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, India, Mexico, on the Cook Islands, Hawaii, Bangkok and, in a situation paralleling that of Romania, in Moscow. Pariah dogs on the Indian subcontinent
> are thought to be the longest-running continuous population of feral dogs  on the order of 14,000 years.
> 
> There are cases of dogs buddying up with one or more dogs for days at a time, and dogs being drawn into proximity to each other by food sources, however none of the above populations form packs the way wolves do.


I could go on, but you get the idea...
Dogs are not pack animals.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> I can only assume you have not read the entire thread (and I cannot blame you), but Prowl is stating that 'animals no longer need to be wild' and should therefore not be allowed any freedom whatsoever outside. The only way, according to Prowl, to take responsibility for a CAT is to keep him totally confined to your house and, if you have one, garden.
> 
> Prowl has apparently been so traumatized by losing a cat that their concerrns about a cat's safety have developed to a degree where they lost all sense of perspective and are reaching an obsessive level. So much so that they want to convince others they are being totally and utterly irresponsible in allowing a cat any natural freedom at all. Prowl compares cats with dogs, who, according to them, also don't need any freedom at all.
> 
> The entire development of this thread must be seen in the light of these obsessive-compulsive views.


No I haven't read the whole thread, the arguments over free-roaming animals are boring frankly.

I have NO opinion on whether cats are allowed to free roam or not. I have ferals we speuter, vaccine, and feed, and I certainly don't keep up with their whereabouts. 
What I take issue with is not taking responsibility for the actions of an animal you are responsible for. 
I don't think a cat soiling in someone's garden should be seen any differently than a dog soiling in someone's garden. 
I don't think a loose cat biting the neighbor's kid should be seen any differently than a loose dog biting the neighbor's kid.
I don't think a loose cat killing the neighbor's pet should be seen any differently than a loose dog killing the neighbor's pet.

If you're not prepared to face the consequences to you or your pet for allowing your pet to roam, don't do it. If you're fine with the consequences, knock yourself out.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Just one point - Dog poo is worse because a dog would do it anywhere - on the street, middle of the lawn etc, if not taken to the appropriate spot by their owner. Cats would never do this, as they are naturally trained by their own mothers how to use a litter tray or soil. That's why I can't understand people who don't like cats in their gardens. I don't have a very cultivated garden though, and if I did, then it could seem worse, but I like a natural garden and would always allow any cat to use my flowerbed, because to me that is nature.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Well all I can say is that the dogs and cats I have had must be really weird because strangely apart from the odd difference here and there they kind of conformed or indeed do conform to the accepted 'stereotypes' we give cats and dogs. 
My cats have all formed a territory. They have all hunted and none have them have ever seen me or the OH as the boss. They have all been extremely affectionate but made it clear that life is on their terms not mine.
My dogs definitely saw me and the OH as the boss and looked to us for leadership and guidance. Again extremely affectionate and would respond to petting at any time ( my cats come to me when they want a cuddle) I could get them to heel, sit and run back to me when off the lead..can't seem to do that with my cats??

And I have to say that apart from one unfortunate spell when I imposed my will on my cat and kept him in I have never had any behavioural issues with my pets but maybe that's because I respect their nature and do not try and get them to conform to my idea of what they should be..


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Tempy said:


> Sadly not true for the roaming cats in our area - on the stones, on the drive, on the lawn; it seems anywhere is good enough. Even saw one urinating in the middle of the road not 30 feet from their "owners" front door.
> 
> This thread has gone mad with all this indoor/outdoor arguments  My opinion is that the laws for any animal should be the same. If an owner chooses a lifestyle for their pet(s) they should be prepared to deal with the consequences.


 I have never once in all my life seen a cat go toilet somewhere where they are unable to bury it? Again i must be going mad but all the cats I have ever known (not just my own) find somewhere private and are fastidious about covering it up. I honestly believe that many indoor cat owners hide behind the toilet issue, all of a sudden after centuries of having cats living beside us they have become the most dirty disgusting creatures on the planet. If you want to keep a cat indoors be honest with your reasons why! Unless you have had a neighbour specifically complain and threaten your cat I don't believe for a minute it is the primary reason why people keep their cats in.And if you think all laws for all animals should be the same then you obviously believe that all animals are the same, be it a rat or a lion..That shows a massive disrespect for animals and their biology.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, I'm backing out, I've had enough


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I have never once in all my life seen a cat go toilet somewhere where they are unable to bury it? Again i must be going mad but all the cats I have ever known (not just my own) find somewhere private and are fastidious about covering it up. *I honestly believe that many indoor cat owners hide behind the toilet issue, *all of a sudden after centuries of having cats living beside us they have become the most dirty disgusting creatures on the planet. *If you want to keep a cat indoors be honest with your reasons why! Unless you have had a neighbour specifically complain and threaten your cat I don't believe for a minute it is the primary reason why people keep their cats in.*And if you think all laws for all animals should be the same then you obviously believe that all animals are the same, be it a rat or a lion..That shows a massive disrespect for animals and their biology.


Has it ever occurred to you that maybe many cat owners find it much easier to tell others it's because of the toilet issue, or something similar, rather than to explain the awful, gut-wrenching fear we feel every time our cat is gone longer than usual, after having lost one to the road.............??


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Treaclesmum said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that maybe many cat owners find it much easier to tell others it's because of the toilet issue, or something similar, rather than to explain the awful, gut-wrenching fear we feel every time our cat is gone longer than usual, after having lost one to the road.............??


 Of course I understand that. I am not a monster. To lose a cat is this way is awful and I do understand so I apologize if i come across as uncaring. My worry is (although I don't explain it well!) is that when we as cat owners keep going on about the toilet thing is that we are making out cats to be dirty when in fact they are clean fastidious animals. We do cats a disservice when we keep going on about them pooing everywhere..as cat lovers we should be defending their species not putting them down. If cats can't count on us being their friend then then really are in trouble aren't they..:sad:
Your concern about the road is an entirely legitimate one and you have nothing to be ashamed of. If that is your worry then you have every right to state it. My sympathies to you regarding your much loved deceased cat by the way xx


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

So Marycat, basically if it's something you personally have not experienced then it does not happen or exist?
I must say, sounds like a very comfortable/comforting way to see the world....


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Marycat said:


> Of course I understand that. I am not a monster. To lose a cat is this way is awful and I do understand so I apologize if i come across as uncaring. My worry is (although I don't explain it well!) is that when we as cat owners keep going on about the toilet thing is that we are making out cats to be dirty when in fact they are clean fastidious animals. We do cats a disservice when we keep going on about them pooing everywhere..as cat lovers we should be defending their species not putting them down. If cats can't count on us being their friend then then really are in trouble aren't they..:sad:
> Your concern about the road is an entirely legitimate one and you have nothing to be ashamed of. If that is your worry then you have every right to state it. My sympathies to you regarding your much loved deceased cat by the way xx


Thank you x Personally I usually do tell people what happened to me a year ago when I lost a cat this way, but of course many non-cat-lovers wouldn't understand how someone might feel, so I can totally see why other cat owners may blame other factors.

Since the awful shock of losing my cat to a car, I have sat with my cats in the garden (one free roaming and 2 on harnesses) and overheard the neighbours saying they dislike cats, and snapping at my cat who went in their garden 

So I wouldn't let my other 2 roam free now I've heard this. Also, cats are all so different - some can cope very well with the dangers of the outdoors but not all of them can and I can't see my 2 girls coping. I did try one of them in the garden by herself for a short time, only to discover she had far too much curiousity and no fear of strangers or wandering into sheds...etc...

But there is a huge difference between someone who's never lost a cat to the great outdoors and someone who has. I do feel the guilt of keeping them in sometimes, but it doesn't outweigh the guilt of finding one dead


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Treaclesmum said:


> Thank you x Personally I usually do tell people what happened to me a year ago when I lost a cat this way, but of course many non-cat-lovers wouldn't understand how someone might feel, so I can totally see why other cat owners may blame other factors.
> 
> Since the awful shock of losing my cat to a car, I have sat with my cats in the garden (one free roaming and 2 on harnesses) and overheard the neighbours saying they dislike cats, and snapping at my cat who went in their garden
> 
> ...


 I completely understand. I went down the cat proofing route because I found a cat involved in a RTA in our road. It really upset me and made me aware that it could be my cat. However post cat proofing my cat was so distraught at being kept in that the decision was made for me, I realized any life, even one where he could potentially be run over, was better than the one I was giving him. But that's my cat, if your cats are fine being kept in then you don't have to justify your reasons to anyone.
I really hope you can get over your guilt hon, I bet anything that if your departed cat could speak to you she would thank you for the life you gave her. Please don't let this ruin your enjoyment of your existing cats, before you know it you become an anxious wreck always on the look out for danger and taking the sole responsibility for their survival on your shoulders.There are things in life you cannot control and all you can do is your best everyday, live in the moment and enjoy your cats. You sound an amazing cat mum. Time to stop beating yourself up now ..xxx


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Marycat said:


> I have never once in all my life seen a cat go toilet somewhere where they are unable to bury it? Again i must be going mad but all the cats I have ever known (not just my own) find somewhere private and are fastidious about covering it up. I honestly believe that many indoor cat owners hide behind the toilet issue, all of a sudden after centuries of having cats living beside us they have become the most dirty disgusting creatures on the planet. If you want to keep a cat indoors be honest with your reasons why! Unless you have had a neighbour specifically complain and threaten your cat I don't believe for a minute it is the primary reason why people keep their cats in.And if you think all laws for all animals should be the same then you obviously believe that all animals are the same, be it a rat or a lion..That shows a massive disrespect for animals and their biology.


Not met the cats down my road then not only do they pee on my door and melt the paint I have found cat poo on the drive and on other peoples because someone locks their older cat out all day which is wrong.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> I can only assume you have not read the entire thread (and I cannot blame you), but Prowl is stating that 'animals no longer need to be wild' and should therefore not be allowed any freedom whatsoever outside. The only way, according to Prowl, to take responsibility for a CAT is to keep him totally confined to your house and, if you have one, garden.
> 
> Prowl has apparently been so traumatized by losing a cat that their concerrns about a cat's safety have developed to a degree where they lost all sense of perspective and are reaching an obsessive level. So much so that they want to convince others they are being totally and utterly irresponsible in allowing a cat any natural freedom at all. Prowl compares cats with dogs, who, according to them, also don't need any freedom at all.
> 
> The entire development of this thread must be seen in the light of these obsessive-compulsive views.


Spreading further rubbish again!
I said CATS don't need to be let out they are also DOMESTICATED animals!!!

They are in no way wild!!


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Spreading further rubbish again!
> I said CATS don't need to be let out they are also DOMESTICATED animals!!!
> 
> They are in no way wild!!


Out of curiosity what would you say to somebody who kept a wild cat indoors? :wink:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Out of curiosity what would you say to somebody who kept a wild cat indoors? :wink:


Wild cat species belong in the wild.

The domestic cat doesn't :arf:

.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Out of curiosity what would you say to somebody who kept a wild cat indoors? :wink:


I would wonder why first?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I would wonder why first?


Just out of curiosity. Mine lives indoors and is perfectly happy to do so. I could go into a lengthy explanation of the damage he would cause to other peoples pets and local wildlife if allowed out, and the fact it would likely result in his death, but as he will never have the chance to go out it would pointless.
I was just wondering if your opinion on that issue would change. There seems to be a lot of focus in your arguments about if cats are wild or not, and truly, from experience the cats we call domestic are only a stone throw away from what a "wild" cat is like.

Personally I think it is up to the owner and cat in question what life suits them best.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Just out of curiosity. Mine lives indoors and is perfectly happy to do so. I could go into a lengthy explanation of the damage he would cause to other peoples pets and local wildlife if allowed out, and the fact it would likely result in his death, but as he will never have the chance to go out it would pointless.
> I was just wondering if your opinion on that issue would change. There seems to be a lot of focus in your arguments about if cats are wild or not, and truly, from experience the cats we call domestic are only a stone throw away from what a "wild" cat is like.
> 
> Personally I think it is up to the owner and cat in question what life suits them best.


Is your cat actually wild or domestic gone feral and rescued??

It depends for me really if an actual wild cat was kept that way out of human greed then I would say thats wrong if a wild cat is in captivity because it doesn't have the skills to be re released then I would aggree provided the cat was living in the right conditions. I would also have no problem with cats roaming in the country provided they were not bringing home wild life every morning or causing an issue for peoples livestock. In an urban setting it can be very dangerous for a cat to be let out without good reasons.

Really does depend on the situation. Its a bit different for an actual wild cat then it is for a domestic cat. Feral cats are domestic at heart they would not be their had their owners not discarded them, left them to breed ect. But even a feral cat can adapt to an indoor lif with the right encouragement.

I would have to aggree that it really does depend.

I just disagree with a large number of statements made in this thread which are not true.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Is your cat actually wild or domestic gone feral and rescued??
> 
> It depends for me really if an actual wild cat was kept that way out of human greed then I would say thats wrong if a wild cat is in captivity because it doesn't have the skills to be re released then I would aggree provided the cat was living in the right conditions. I would also have no problem with cats roaming in the country provided they were not bringing home wild life every morning or causing an issue for peoples livestock. In an urban setting it can be very dangerous for a cat to be let out without good reasons.
> 
> ...


That is a great statement, much more open minded and not so much "tar them all with the same brush".

Mine is a wild cat species, surplus to requirement for conservation. In fact I actually contacted the british association of zoos and aquariums to ask if they would be interested in considering a loan agreement for him to be used in their breeding programmes. Sadly they were not interested.

He is perfectly happy here though so I'm not concerned. Also no, he is not at all skilled enough to fend for himself so release would not be an option.

The point I was hinting at was that it's very easy to look at something and put it in black and white but in reality we and our cats are all different and unless you know the exact reasons for something, and have been in that exact situation, you can't possibly say another animal owner is right or wrong for the choices they make as long as they are doing the best they possibly can.


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## gentoo1980 (Aug 6, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Is your cat actually wild or domestic gone feral and rescued??
> 
> It depends for me really if an actual wild cat was kept that way out of human greed then I would say thats wrong if a wild cat is in captivity because it doesn't have the skills to be re released then I would aggree provided the cat was living in the right conditions. I would also have no problem with cats roaming in the country provided they were not bringing home wild life every morning or causing an issue for peoples livestock. In an urban setting it can be very dangerous for a cat to be let out without good reasons.
> 
> ...


Why do people keep reffering to domesticated stray cats as ferrel cats? It does me head in.

Oh I am tired, I been up 24 hours. I've tried to wrtie what turned out to be an essay on the difference between a ferrel, semi-ferrel (there's two types) and a domesticated stray but my post don't come across as intelligent at the best of times so I ened up deleting it.

You never asnwered my question a while back. I asked wheather you kept your dog on a leesh. It's just it's the only way to fully control your dog (no matter how well behaved the owner may belive they are) is to keep them on a leesh at all times.

Not when walking on the street I mean when down the park or where ever they're walked. I don't think you do. I think you're the kind of owner who allows your dog have a bit off freedom off lead, allow him to have one of his most natural needs to exersie himself but you have to admit ( I don't know why but have a sneeky feeling you wont, haha) that by alllowing your dog off lead you haven't got the sort of controlover your dog that you seem to be demanding that a cat owner have other their cats.

When a dogs off the lead you can't control where they do their buisness. How they react if they were to be attacked by another dog. There are plenty of cases where a dog has bit a passer by after being under attack from another dog.
Oh when dogs have run away after being attacked

It's dangous allowing a dog to be off lead but us dog lovers allow

I've owned 8 cats over the past 9 years and only has two of them been badly injured outside. One the vet think was hit by a car (he just chipped the bone in his back leg) and the other cut her foot open because someone dumped a load of glass down the street.

Yet my two dogs have been attacked whilst off the lead many times. Cut their foot open and other stuff that I can't remember.

Okay this post has now turned in an essay so I'm going to not bother writing anymore.

My point is if this post actually has acutally got a point is that if you want people to fully control their cats, then you must agree that people should fully controll their dogs. I think:skep:

Dogs should be trained to only do their buisness in theor owners garden/yard. 
Never allowed off lead.
Mussled at all times and so on.

I kinda don't wanna post this because I don't think it makes much sence but then again most of the pro indoor only cat post also don't make much sence and since I've spent 30 mins typing it down so gonna submit it anyways.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

gentoo1980 said:


> Why do people keep reffering to domesticated stray cats as ferrel cats? It does me head in.
> 
> Oh I am tired, I been up 24 hours. I've tried to wrtie what turned out to be an essay on the difference between a ferrel, semi-ferrel (there's two types) and a domesticated stray but my post don't come across as intelligent at the best of times so I ened up deleting it.
> 
> ...


Dogs off lead are an entirely different discussion which have no place in this thread.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Dogs off lead are an entirely different discussion which have no place in this thread.


 That will be a' yes I do let my dog off the lead then'??


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

gentoo1980 said:


> Why do people keep reffering to domesticated stray cats as ferrel cats? It does me head in.
> 
> Any domesticated animal living wild is called a feral
> 
> ...


#

Responsible dog owners only allow their dogs off lead if they are as confident as they can be that the dog will return to recall when its allowed off lead, they take a calculated risk.

I have Siberian Huskies, responsible owners don't let this breed off lead unless its somewhere secure. Siberians cannot be trusted to return to recall & like cats, have very keen predatory instincts.

.

.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

As a family we have owned 10 cats, over many years. All have been neutered, vaccinated, trained to use a litter tray, free roaming during the day and kept in at night. 

I cannot guarantee that they did not poo in my neighbours' gardens. Other peoples' cats certainly poo in my garden and not always in the dirt, but sometimes in the middle of the lawn. :mellow:

In all those years only one of our cats was injured whilst outside - and we had to guess that it was probably hit by a car. We have never had a cat poisoned, killed or be subjected to any other awful treatment.

I think that is the norm for many people and their cats.

IMO - cats should not be forced to be indoor/outdoor run cats. Some cats are just simply not suitable for such restrictions. Some are - though how their happiness can be measured I am not sure.

ALL cats should be chipped, neutered, vaccinated, litter tray trained, etc. That is the limit of the control that I feel could be put on cats. I don't think it is at all practical to force all cats to be stopped from free roaming.

I think the programme put across the point that cats predating on wildlife was not the biggest culprit. Putting a collar and bell on a cat would certainly have an effect on a cat's ability to catch prey. 

Comparing cats with dogs does not work IMO. They are two entirely different species. And whilst they are both domesticated their natural lifestyles are entirely different, and therefore their domesticated lifestyles differ too.

BTW - most dog owners have no real control over their dogs either  

Expecting people to control their cats is not practical IMO.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

All animals were wild at one point. Ok many have been kept by humans for thousands of years but when removed from a domestic position their natural instincts quickly return.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Marycat said:


> That will be a' yes I do let my dog off the lead then'??


It means I don't want this to become an off lead dog thread discussion.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> It means I don't want this to become an off lead dog thread discussion.


Too late:



Tempy said:


> My opinion is that the laws for any animal should be the same.


Thus, if cats are to be controlled (on leashes?) or confined indoors 24/7, so are dogs. And pigeons (for they may poo down on my nice clean car whist in flight, you know, and that would be an offence). And in fact all of our pets who would otherwise be allowed to enjoy a little freedom as nature intended.

Welcome to the future, pet lovers!


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> Thus, if cats are to be controlled (on leashes?) or confined indoors 24/7, so are dogs. And pigeons (for they may poo down on my nice clean car whist in flight, you know, and that would be an offence). And in fact all of our pets who would otherwise be allowed to enjoy a little freedom as nature intended.


Give the animals freedom, but accept responsibility for their behavior.

If you keep an animal as a PET you can't claim the "it's a wild animal" card. If it's your pet then YOU are responsible for it.

If my dog roams and bites the neighbor's kid I'm responsible.
If my cat roams and bites the neighbor's kid I'm responsible. 
It's really not so complicated...


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Not complicated. 

If 'my' cat bit the neighbour's kid I would take responsibility on his behalf. Of course. 

It's not to admit "yes of course he should never have been allowed outside, it's my fault for not listening to the fundamentalists on PF", but instead it's to say "he can't take responsibility for his actions because he's just doing what comes naturally and he's a cat so doesn't submit to my will (or a leash) like a dog would, and I can't train him because he's a cat, not a dog or a horse, so he is really wild (in that sense), but nevertheless I gladly take the responsibility on his behalf, just because we all need to get along, and I care about him, and I care about the neighbour's kid too."

Not complicated. He is essentially a wild (ie untrained/untrainable) animal, but yet I can still feel responsible. 

Or maybe that is complicated?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2013)

CoCoTrio said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly. Not complicated.
> 
> If 'my' cat bit the neighbour's kid I would take responsibility on his behalf. Of course.
> 
> ...


Your still talking rubbish a cat is in no way wild!! A cat is a domesticated animal! I think you will find that cat have been domesticated for thousands of years if not more.

See domesticated cat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat
Please stop saying they are wild they are not!!!

If your cat was kept in your own garden then he wouldn't have the opertunity to bite the neibours kid in the first place. Your reasons for letting your cat out because he does not submit to your will are very poor if my dog did not obey she would not go off lead at all simple as that! Do you honestly think a lead controls a large dog? No good training does and carefull handling.

You show a lack of respect for nature and pet behaviour. If I were to let my future cat out I would need more then the excuse he has natural instincts I can't control him.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Your still talking rubbish a cat is in no way wild!! A cat is a domesticated animal! I think you will find that cat have been domesticated for thousands of years if not more.
> 
> See domesticated cat
> Cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


I thought that might be too complicated for you. But I was merely agreeing with ouesi, can you not see that?

I defined the word 'wild' for you for the purposes of my post, and to avoid confusing you: ie 'untrained/untrainable'. I hoped that might have been clear to you. I guess not. I didn't mean 'wild' in the sense of 'living in a natural wilderness with no human contact' or what ever you might mean by it.

What do you mean, actually? Except to say "rubbish" over and over. That's not very interesting and makes you look thoughtless, and ill-mannered.

Here's something for you to read: from Merriam-Webster, and I hope this will help you understand that _cats are wild_, according to one of the accepted definitions and meanings of the word 'wild', the definition to which I had _expressly indicated _I was referring.

Full definition of WILD:

1
a : living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated <wild ducks> 
b (1) : growing or produced without human aid or care <wild honey> (2) : related to or resembling a corresponding cultivated or domesticated organism 
c : of or relating to wild organisms <the wild state> 
2
a : not inhabited or cultivated <wild land> 
b : not amenable to human habitation or cultivation; also : desolate 
3
a (1) : *not subject to restraint or regulation : uncontrolled; also : unruly* (2) : emotionally overcome <wild with grief>; also : passionately eager or enthusiastic <was wild to own a toy train  J. C. Furnas> 
b : marked by turbulent agitation : stormy <a wild night> 
c : going beyond normal or conventional bounds : fantastic <wild ideas>; also : sensational 
d : indicative of strong passion, desire, or emotion <a wild gleam of delight in his eyes  Irish Digest> 
4
: uncivilized, barbaric 
5
: characteristic of, appropriate to, or expressive of wilderness, wildlife, or a simple or uncivilized society 
6
a : deviating from the intended or expected course <wild spelling  C. W. Cunnington> <the throw was wild>; also : tending to throw inaccurately <a wild pitcher> 
b : having no basis in known or surmised fact <a wild guess> 
7
of a playing card : able to represent any card designated by the holder

OK Prowl? Because there's no point in discussing anything if we ignorantly (or wilfully?) misconstrue the meaning of words.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Marycat said:


> I still stand by cats and dogs are different. I would love to see the day when we have a police cat though


Police dogs are relatively easy to train. Police cats on the other hand are apparently impossible to train. Because cats and dogs are different: cats are more untameable and less biddable, less willing to be subject to human control, 'wilder' if you will; and this is presumably the reason why generations of lawmakers have declined to compel us to impose our will on them as we're required to do with dogs, ie because it's not possible.

Here's the Wikipedia version of the CIA's attempt to train cats:

_Acoustic Kitty was a CIA project launched by the Directorate of Science & Technology in the 1960s attempting to use cats in spy missions, intended to spy on the Kremlin and Soviet embassies, recording the links between the buildings in the area. A battery and a microphone were implanted into a cat and an antenna into its tail. This would allow the cats to innocuously record and transmit sound from its surroundings. Due to problems with distraction, the cat's sense of hunger had to be addressed in another operation.

The first Acoustic Kitty mission was to eavesdrop on two men in a park outside the Soviet compound on Wisconsin Avenue in Washington, D.C. The cat was released nearby, but was hit and killed by a taxi almost immediately. However, this is disputed by former Director of the CIA's Office of Technical Service, Robert Wallace, in the Weapons Of The Superspies episode of the TV series The World's Weirdest Weapons: Wallace states that *the project was abandoned due to the difficulty of training the cat to behave as required*, and "the equipment was taken out of the cat; the cat was re-sewn for a second time, and lived a long and happy life afterwards".

Subsequent tests also failed. Shortly thereafter the project was considered a failure and declared to be a total loss. The project was cancelled in 1967. _

Acoustic Kitty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Your still talking rubbish a cat is in no way wild!! A cat is a domesticated animal! I think you will find that cat have been domesticated for thousands of years if not more.
> 
> See domesticated cat
> Cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


 Not really an issue is it cats biting kids..? I don't think I will lose any sleep over that one. I have yet to see the headline 'Tabby cat mauls toddler' However I wait to stand corrected. I am quite sure someone has a tale where a child has been shredded by Tiddles the pyscho. More than likely while they were on a lead I'm imagine..
So Prowl you do let your dog off the lead then? You are able to see that your dog deserves a bit of freedom but you don't extend the same courtesy to other animals..Now I have seen the headline 'dog mauls toddler' and I have also trod in dog poo on many occasion while in the fields. If we take your logic then really we should never allow a dog off its lead because we cannot 100% guarantee their behaviour. Or is your dog special? 
For the record I let my dogs off the lead in suitable places and I let my cats roam. This does not mean I am an irresponsible oaf. I take responsibility for my pets and their actions. Personally my main priority for my pets is that they enjoy their life as much as possible. Correct me if you are wrong but your priority seems to be to control them as much as possible..? I haven't seen one statement off you where you have shown any concern for the pychological needs of the cat or how you plan to address their natural urges?? Do enlighten me Prowl!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> It means I don't want this to become an off lead dog thread discussion.


So you accuse other people for alleged irresponible behaviour based on your prejudice and personal fears, without having your own attitude towards your own pets known and run the risk of having it scrutinized and commented on.......

Typical......

Why are you coming over to the cat section and starting constant debates about cat behaviour and cat ownership, anyway?????

Just to provoke a sitr????


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> I am reading and learning
> 
> Are Dogs Pack Animals? |


It is only logical stray dogs do not 'form packs'. Dog packs are family groups, and outsiders have to be accepted into the group by the alpha dog. Unrelated, unacquainted dogs will not naturally congregate to form a pack, they will remain loners or try to get accepted by an existing pack.

A human functioning as the head of family can introduce new dogs, which will then form a 'pack' with their human family, and will probably continue to live as a pack if they are separated from that human family.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> It is only logical stray dogs do not 'form packs'. Dog packs are family groups, and outsiders have to be accepted into the group by the alpha dog. Unrelated, unacquainted dogs will not naturally congregate to form a pack, they will remain loners or try to get accepted by an existing pack.
> 
> A human functioning as the head of family can introduce new dogs, which will then form a 'pack' with their human family, and will probably continue to live as a pack if they are separated from that human family.


That sounds right to me. It makes sense, and it fits with real-world experience and observation. Therefore I'd say it's TRUE. Dogs are pack animals in the sense that they are social creatures and operate according to hierarchies. Like monkeys and apes. We don't call primates 'pack animals' but they are. 'Pack hunter' seems to be the more correct term. But whether or not we quibble about the exact terminology I'm sure the relevance to a discussion about the difference between cats and dogs is that _dogs are pack hunters and cats are not_. Neither are 'pack animals' as that term more correctly describes beasts of burden.

Apologies for quoting Wikipedia again, but it is a pretty reliable source of essentially non-biased information:

_A pack hunter or social predator is a predator belonging to the animal kingdom, which has evolved to hunt its prey by working together with other members of its species. Normally animals hunting in this way are closely related, and with the singular exception of humans and chimpanzees where only males normally hunt, all individuals in a family group will contribute to hunting. The most commonly known pack hunter is the Gray Wolf, the ancestor of all breeds of domesticated dogs. Humans and their closest-living relatives chimpanzees are themselves pack hunters even without aid of other species. Other pack hunting mammals include dolphins, orcas, lions, dwarf and banded mongooses and hyenas. A number of avian social predators exist, including the Harris Hawk, butcherbirds, three of four kookaburra species and many helmetshrikes. There are a few cold-blooded pack hunters including simple arthropods such as army ants, the Yellow Saddle Goatfishand occasionally crocodiles. There is a possibility that some non-avian theropod dinosaurs displayed pack behavior as well.

*A social animal that always hunts singly such as the domestic cat is not a pack hunter.*

Pack hunting is typically associated with cooperative breeding and its concentration in the Afrotropical Region is a reflection of this. Most pack hunters are found in the southern African savannas, with a notable absence in tropical rainforests and with the exception of the wolf and coyote, higher latitudes. It is thought that either on the ancient and poor soils of the southern African savanna it is not possible for individual predators to find adequate food, or that the environment's inherent unpredictability due to ENSO or IOD events means that in very bad conditions it will not be possible to raise the young necessary to prevent declining populations from adult mortality. It is also argued that Africa's very large area of continuous flat and open country, which was even more extensive while rainforest contracted during glacial periods of the Quaternary, may have helped encourage pack hunting to become much more common than on any other continent.

*A shared pack hunting history is thought to be the main conduit through which humans have been able to form a mutual relationship with dogs (that is, domestication), as both species are highly social and inter-dependent. Humans easily take over the dominance hierarchy of dogs as subordinates instinctively follow the "alpha" individual and dogs are accustomed to living very close together.*_


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

To be honest anybody who has had a pet dog and a cat is well able to tell the difference. In fact anybody with a modicum of common sense knows they are a different species and thus must be treated different.They have fur and 4 legs, like their dinner, and there the similarity ends. 
If Prowl insists on treating a future cat like its a dog then Prowl is in for some trouble. Unless of course Prowl knows how to train a cat to be obedient? If so, please tell me, I am a complete failure in getting my cats to follow my commands!! I take it Prowl that you took on the role of master/mistress when training your dog to be obedient off a lead? Good luck with that one when you try it with a cat. 
Dogs and cats are both lovely pets and they both deserve to have our respect and understanding. Part of that respect is educating yourself before you have a pet on what their individual requirements/needs are and not lumping them all in the same category. It is not about what we want them to be or need from them, it is about respecting basic fundamental needs such as understanding that a dog will see you as an Alpha dog and is looking for you to guide, a cat isn't!!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Is your cat actually wild or domestic gone feral and rescued??
> 
> It depends for me really if an actual wild cat was kept that way out of human greed then I would say thats wrong if a wild cat is in captivity because it doesn't have the skills to be re released then I would aggree provided the cat was living in the right conditions. I would also have no problem with cats roaming in the country provided they were not bringing home wild life every morning or causing an issue for peoples livestock. In an urban setting it can be very dangerous for a cat to be let out without good reasons.
> 
> ...


You are tallking about strays, not ferals.
A feral cat may be *descended from* a stray who was once a domesticated cat or a farm or barn cat kept for catching mice and totally unused to living in a home. 
A feral cat is in no way a domesticated cat, ferals were born 'in the wild', whether it is on a farmland, in the woods or in a park in a town or village, but they have been living like wild animals from birth and can not be kept as a domestic animal. Even if caught very young and socialized by hand-rearing, most feral kittens will retain a very strong urge to live wild, even if they learn to trust humans well enough to come in for food.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Prowl said:


> If your cat was kept in your own garden then he wouldn't have the opertunity to bite the neibours kid in the first place. Your reasons for letting your cat out because he does not submit to your will are very poor if my dog did not obey she would not go off lead at all simple as that! Do you honestly think a lead controls a large dog? No good training does and carefull handling.
> 
> You show a lack of respect for nature and pet behaviour. If I were to let my future cat out I would need more then the excuse he has natural instincts I can't control him.


Used to have a dog, he was whistle, call and hand signal trained. Now have two cats, one of whom sometimes comes when called, but not always.

I would never insult _either_ species by saying they are like each other.

None of us are saying we are letting our cats out because they do not submit to our will. We are saying we let them out because, although we might prefer to keep them indoors, some cats do _not_ adapt well to an indoor lifestyle, particularly if they are already used to roaming. My Charlie-girl is one such cat (see previous post in this thread), and although I naturally worry about her whilst she is out and about, forcing her to live indoors would simply be inflicting mental cruelty as it genuinely depresses her.

I'm also not saying that there aren't cats out there who can be trained beyind the normal grooming/litter tray/scratching post etc. normal range of well adjusted cat behaviours. Some can - some will go for walks on leads, or play fetch. But, and this is a big but, _that is not the norm with cats_. If you want a biddable, trainable animal, get a dog - or a horse. And that's not because all cat owners are lazy and can't be bothered to put the effort in (do you want to come and spend a couple of hours playing with my kitten every evening to wear her out before bedtime?), but because most felines have a natural 'stuff you, human' streak when asked to do something they don't fancy. Being naturally solitary animals, they just don't have the 'yes, pack leader!' attitude that you can tap in to and use to train a dog, and all the time and patience and clicker treats in the world isn't going to change that.



CoCoTrio said:


> Apologies for quoting Wikipedia again...


At this point, forget Wikipedia, and go straight to the kitties mouth 

*Tom:* Hold it right there. Don't you move. Now come down from there nice and easy
*Catwoman:* Cats come when they feel like it. Not when they're told.

(yeah, I know - rubbish film.  But, in this line, oh SO accurate  )

Or, if you want the more traditional point of view:


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

As far as l am concerned unless UK law changes then people are allowed to let their cats roam. However I do understand and am very pro indoor cats even if mine arent due to their preference. That is purely down to selfish reasons though as my cat got hurt possibly by a car and it could have been worse than a few broken ribs. It doesn't help that she could get injured in a padded cell but I cannot keep her in and have her not go mental.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Your still talking rubbish a cat is in no way wild!! A cat is a domesticated animal! I think you will find that cat have been domesticated for thousands of years if not more.
> 
> See domesticated cat
> Cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


I think you're showing a lack of respect for people never mind animals!!!


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## wennywoo (May 29, 2013)

I'm a little reeling from the post that cast aspersions on my responsibility as a cat owner to be honest! I think the phrase was "the moment you let your cat out, that is when you're irresponsible"... Love it. Nice blanket accusation there with no actual consideration for whatever the circumstances may or may not be for an individual.

I know *my* cat. I have set rules for her (not out overnight, not going on the actual street) for her own protection and mine and to compromise. She *wants* to go outside, I don't have a cat flap and she meows to go out. Over a very very snowy period she actually became stressed because she couldn't go out as much as she wanted to.I *don't want* her to get hurt. My rules. 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I get that, but please don't disguise (or confuse) having an opinion with blindly passing judgment. It's the quickest way for someone to regard your opinion as invalid. 

As for cats not being part of an ecosystem, everything is part of an ecosystem. We are part of a ruddy massive world and *everything* within the world has a place. That's my opinion of course and yours may differ but I accept that we will never agree on that.

For the record though a dog is not a cat and vice a versa.... Just like I am not a fish.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Domesticated animals don't 'fit' into a healthy functioning ecosystem where everything is in a balance. Cats have nothing to control their population & so they can wreak havoc of native species.

As Prowl says, cats are a domesticated species, even cats which are feral. Ferals may have reverted to a wild state, but that doesn't mean they become a wild 'species', they are still domestic cats.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Cats have nothing to control their population


Cats' populations are very effectively controlled by spaying and neutering.



noushka05 said:


> ... & so they can wreak havoc of native species.


The potential for 'wreaking havoc' is much reduced by the quality and quantity of the food which we feed to them.



noushka05 said:


> Domesticated animals don't 'fit' into a healthy functioning ecosystem where everything is in a balance.


There's no reason not to consider pet cats full members of the urban ecosystem. Whether any such ecosystem can ever be considered 'healthy and functioning' is highly questionable, given that it's dominated by human activities. Isn't a _completely balanced _ecosystem logically one in which there is no change, adaptation or evolution, as there would be no need? Can such a thing ever exist except in a laboratory? If I put bird seed out for the sparrows in winter I'm 'unbalancing' the ecosystem. If I reduce my cat's food so he has to go out to hunt for a mouse, I'm unbalancing the ecosystem. If we build more houses we're unbalancing the... and so on. Ecosystems are constantly subject to change, and cats are not excluded from them, any more than we are.



noushka05 said:


> As Prowl says, cats are a domesticated species, even cats which are feral. Ferals may have reverted to a wild state, but that doesn't mean they become a wild 'species', they are still domestic cats.


I don't think there can be any argument that pet cats are generally classified as domestic animals in the sense that they live in close proximity to humans and enjoy our close attention, but I don't see what that has to do with demands that they all be compulsorily confined indoors for life.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

munchkinpie said:


> I think it's a silkie chicken


No it's not a silkie - it's one of those russian varieties, I think (well they have a russian name), but I can't remember what they're called.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> Cats' populations are very effectively controlled by spaying and neutering.
> 
> The potential for 'wreaking havoc' is much reduced by the quality and quantity of the food which we feed to them.
> 
> ...


They are classified as a domestic species because that is exactly what they are, unlike their ancestors they didn't evolve in the wild as part on an ecosystem, they evolved in the company of man. Same goes for the domestic dog, ferret, cow, sheep .........

A lot of people feel cat owners should take full responsibility for their pets, whether that's because they are concerned about impacts on wildlife, they don't like them messing in their gardens or general concern for the safety of freeroaming cats - or for all of these reasons.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Spaying and neutering is only done by sensible, responsible owners. Plenty of cats owners are not desexing, our rescues are full of unwanted and unplanned cats/kittens. I'm very good friends with someone who coordinates a rescue, the other week they had 11 kittens and 3 pregnant queens surrendered. More still to be surrendered. This is quickly going to turn into 30+ cats(one queen delivered 7 kittens last night). Look at pets4homes, gumtree etc do you honestly believe all these cats are going to responsible homes where they will be desexed? Do you believe the mothers of half these kittens have had proper pregnancy care? No they are a quick buck for someone who mostly likely couldn't give a s**t what happens to them. Then you have the idiots who think letting them have one litter is good for them. Not very effective population control as it is optional. If were compulsory or for it to be regulated in a similar way as pedigree breeding then yes it would be a population control but with desexing it optional so no control what so ever. Free roaming cats can effect how others live and can be a pain in the back side, it's not the cats fault I know but maybe if owners knew just how much they get upto and the dangers they encounter they may think twice.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

It's a polish chicken she informed us chicken admirers.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> They are classified as a domestic species because that is exactly what they are, unlike their ancestors they didn't evolve in the wild as part on an ecosystem, they evolved in the company of man. Same goes for the domestic dog, ferret, cow, sheep .........


Same as man.
The one species wreaking havoc to any ecosystem it interferes with is man.
Cats are simply taking up the vacancy WE created by eliminating natural predators in the ecosystem.

The true damage is being done by us, in building up the wildlife's natural habitat, spreading poison and chasing them away because they eat our crops. It is not the cats that upset the ecosystem, it is US. If we had a little more consideration for the needs of other species in terms of habitat and breeding opportunities, the European ecosystem would be perfectly capable of dealing with well-fed urban cats.

The real issue is that WE ruin entire ecosystems and then blame it on the cats.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Collectively millions of cats killing our native wildlife IS having an impact. Peer reviewed studies have proved it.


I don't dispute that cats killing other animals has an effect on the overall status of a given urban ecosystem.

If we prefer to manipulate their numbers to attempt to ensure no further change or evolution of the system we might determine the optimum number of cats required to keep rodents in check and license those cats to roam whilst all others are confined or culled.

That to me sounds like unnatural interference in the order of things, but it would perhaps promote a version of 'nature' (ie a 'balance' in the ecosystem) that accords with our selfish notions of what the world should be like. I have no argument with that, except that it's deliberately manipulative.

If we want to recreate a pre-industrial habitat, or to artificially encourage this or that species to thrive, that's our prerogative as the dominant species. We can artificially adjust the numbers of this or that species to increase the numbers of another, and so on. Or we could let nature take its course, accepting that we're part of it too.

Increasing the numbers of cats roaming free would indeed alter the balance of nature and impact on other species, but so would reducing it. Anyone who dreams of the day that all pet cats are kept indoors because they 'wreak havoc' on rodent populations might want to invest in some traps.



noushka05 said:


> The more we either directly or indirectly (ie pet cats) interfere with nature, the greater the damage. Our native species cannot adapt to all these pressure, so as individuals we should try to take responsibility & try to minimise these impacts. Wild predator populations are controlled by the abundance of prey and suitable territories, they reach a natural balance, if this didn't occur they would eat their prey into extinction > Cat population is growing year upon year, cats should be excluded if we want help our diminishing wildlife...we are the reason cats are damaging ecosysems...you cant blame cats.


By your own reasoning wild predator populations of free-roaming cats would be "controlled by the abundance of prey and suitable territories, they reach a natural balance, if this didn't occur they would eat their prey into extinction". That sounds very natural, and self-balancing. Regarding our influence: we might suppose that the amount of food we provide to these cats would proportionately reduce their impact on the prey species.



noushka05 said:


> Out of curiosity how do you feel about alien wild species such as grey squirrels and mink, do you think their populations need controlling? or indeed deer, which in the UK have no predators to naturally control their population?


How far back do you go to count a species as alien?

From Grey-Squirrel.org.uk - Professor Acorn's We're as native as you! -
_"If, however, you do entertain the concept of "nativeness" put forward by the conservationists, then the vast majority of the Red Squirrels currently in the UK are no more native then Grey Squirrels, having been introduced to the UK from Scandinavia, among other areas, following local extinctions of the true "native" reds."_

It's really just all about exercising our power to control animal populations according to arbitrary concepts of what is 'right' and 'wrong' in nature. Preferences which often seem to me to be quite sentimental.

And aren't we a viable predator for deer? Venison makes good cat food.



noushka05 said:


> They are classified as a domestic species because that is exactly what they are, unlike their ancestors they didn't evolve in the wild as part on an ecosystem, they evolved in the company of man. Same goes for the domestic dog, ferret, cow, sheep .........


I had already written:



CoCoTrio said:


> I don't think there can be any argument that pet cats are generally classified as domestic animals in the sense that they live in close proximity to humans and enjoy our close attention.


So no argument there. They are classed as domestic, but are obviously not domesticated to the extent of horses and dogs. Hence the legal differentiation.



noushka05 said:


> A lot of people feel cat owners should take full responsibility for their pets, whether that's because they are concerned about impacts on wildlife, they don't like them messing in their gardens or general concern for the safety of freeroaming cats - or for all of these reasons.


I take full responsibility for my cat, but I won't treat him like a dog or a rabbit by putting him on a leash or in a cage. Anyone who truly cares about animals will surely care about them in their natural state according to their essential needs, even those animals with natural instincts which we 'civilised' humans might find slightly inconveniencing in the course of our arrogant modern self-centred urban lives.


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

I just don't know how the ecosystem hasn't collapsed with my little vicious hunter - the one and only (already very dead) mouse that he's ever bought in will surely have tipped the balance. But then I'm an irresponsible cat owner who has weighed up the risks/benefits of letting my poor neglected cat go outside so surely my opinion doesn't count


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

WOW! Lots to read on here! 

Can I ask what the actual program was about as I haven't seen it?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Same as man.
> The one species wreaking havoc to any ecosystem it interferes with is man.
> Cats are simply taking up the vacancy WE created by eliminating natural predators in the ecosystem.
> 
> ...


If you re-read my post I have said we cant blame cats, its All our fault, its our fault that cats are out there killing wildlife, they are just another man induced hazard our wildlife faces.

We still have native wild predator species, foxes, mustelids,raptors all competing for prey with a massive cat population.



CoCoTrio said:


> I don't dispute that cats killing other animals has an effect on the overall status of a given urban ecosystem.
> 
> If we prefer to manipulate their numbers to attempt to ensure no further change or evolution of the system we might determine the optimum number of cats required to keep rodents in check and license those cats to roam whilst all others are confined or culled.
> 
> ...


I truly care about animals, all animals. I know my Siberian Huskies, with their strong desire to hunt, would relish being allowed off lead free to express this innate instinct. But I would be irresponsible to let them do so - our fast dwindling wildlife has to come first.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> WOW! Lots to read on here!
> 
> Can I ask what the actual program was about as I haven't seen it?


Countryfile I believe


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Countryfile I believe


lol I said what was the program about! I think its called countryfile, never heard of it! Is it just about cats? If not the episode was about cats? What was done/said about them!


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> lol I said what was the program about! I think its called countryfile, never heard of it! Is it just about cats? If not the episode was about cats? What was done/said about them!


Countryfile is not about cats normally, it's about all kinds of issues affecting farming and weather and other issues etc in the UK countryside :wink:


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but saw this and felt the need to respond. Sorry I don't see an option to 'quote' so had to copy & paste  :

"I take full responsibility for my cat, but I won't treat him like a dog or a rabbit by putting him on a leash or in a cage. Anyone who truly cares about animals will surely care about them in their natural state according to their essential needs, even those animals with natural instincts which we 'civilised' humans might find slightly inconveniencing in the course of our arrogant modern self-centred urban lives"

I am neither arrogant or self-centred and my reasons for having house cats are important to me and my cats. I don't criticize anyone or have a problem with free roaming cats, your choice  I have always had free roaming cats previously with some horrid consequences. So my boys are perfectly happy and safe indoor cats. End of.

Why can't we all accept eachothers choices and not feel the need to shove our own opinions down other peoples throats? Nobody can win this argument and I won't be trying 
Em


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Treaclesmum said:


> Countryfile is not about cats normally, it's about all kinds of issues affecting farming and weather and other issues etc in the UK countryside :wink:


lol so what was said on this episode about cats??


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> lol so what was said on this episode about cats??


Don't know as I didn't see it....! Presumably it was looking at the issues caused by free-roaming cats and risks to wildlife...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Treaclesmum said:


> Countryfile is not about cats normally, it's about all kinds of issues affecting farming and weather and other issues etc in the UK countryside :wink:





Treaclesmum said:


> Don't know as I didn't see it....! Presumably it was looking at the issues caused by free-roaming cats and risks to wildlife...


oh haha!! does anyone else know what was said on it?


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I didn't see it either.... but it has certainly stirred up a lot of emotions on here :lol:
Em


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

moggie14 said:


> I didn't see it either.... but it has certainly stirred up a lot of emotions on here :lol:
> Em


lol that's why I am so interested to know! :w00t:


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but saw this and felt the need to respond. Sorry I don't see an option to 'quote' so had to copy & paste  :
> 
> "I take full responsibility for my cat, but I won't treat him like a dog or a rabbit by putting him on a leash or in a cage. Anyone who truly cares about animals will surely care about them in their natural state according to their essential needs, even those animals with natural instincts which we 'civilised' humans might find slightly inconveniencing in the course of our arrogant modern self-centred urban lives"
> 
> ...


Please don't think I meant that any particular group of us lives a more arrogant modern self-centred urban life than another. I include myself in the description.

Em, I agree with you 100% that we should all accept each others' choices. We should support the right to keep a cat indoors if that's best for the cat, and we should support the right to let a cat roam, for exactly the same reason.

No one has called for all cats to be let out, but there have been many calls for all cats to be confined. The intolerance has so far all been seen on the side of the indoor crowd.

Live and let live. Surely here in Cat Chat we all want what's best for our cats, and our neighbours' cats too.

PS I didn't see the programme either, but we were allegedly 'demonised' by it. 
Edit - correction: sorry misread Prowl's OP - it wasn't us who were demonised, it was our unwitting cats. Sounds a bit medieval.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I posted before about how it is us who unbalances nature. It isn't as simple as a cat being fed at home. A fed cat will hunt for sport, this is proved when we compare barn cats living on farms who are fed to true wild cats. I do know very much about both.
A wild cat will eat EVERYTHING it can. It will also not use it's energy on a hunt that is not worthwhile. You can see this on many documentaries, even big cats like lions will ignore close by prey animals if the hunt is not worth it or the animal is already satiated.
In the wild food is everything, nothing survives without enough to eat so the depletion of prey animals would lead to less kittens surviving to adulthood. The ecosystem will only sustain the strongest, most fortunate hunters.

We also use vaccination, a disease which would once have, for a short time, lowered the number of cats in an area are no longer a threat. They are now fully protected against common ailments giving them an edge over anything else.
An injury or infection which in the wild would prevent the animal hunting, avoiding danger and living effectively would be fatal, but thanks to veterinary care this is not a problem for domestic cats. There is so much more to it than just one cat catching a few birds.

Again I want to say that I am in no way against free roaming cats, I just believe owners who say they acknowledge their cat's "need" to roam, also must acknowledge a predator's desire to hunt and kill. Anybody who argues that it is nature must also understand that we are going against nature with the protections we offer such as food, vaccinations and veterinary attention. It seems to me to argue one without the other is ignorant. 

A point prowl made about large dogs on leads, and that it is only training that controls them. This is madness. A leash is a training aid in itself, and size is not everything. Leading closely to my next point, a head collar and lead rope can work wonders on even the most wild of horses. When I had mine, I would train youngstock, wild from the mountains. These were not easy to handle ponies but a head collar placed on was one of the best early controls there were. 

I was fortune enough to have access to around 400 acres to turf my horses out, I don't see letting a horse roam this to be any different to letting a cat roam in the sense of accident or injury (obviously horses are not responsible for killing wildlife). If a horse had broken it's leg while out "being a horse" would it be my fault? No. Would I have blamed myself? Yes. There is always an element of "what if I hadn't..." or "If only I had kept them in today" but as we don't have crystal balls we cant predict if anything tragic will happen. As an extreme, there are some people who do keep horses inside stalls, in barns, in stables... and the only time they are allowed outside is when ridden. This requires very regular riding but is it healthy? Probably not. An old horse with health complications - maybe it is better, but in my opinion youngsters and fit adult horses should be allowed outside as much as possible. They are animals that rely on grazing and interaction with herd members. Without this and when kept entirely in stalls they develop many vices and unnatural behavior, they become stressed and even depressed. So where as a permanently stalled horse may be the more convenient option for me (the horse is always ready to ride, I don't have to walk muddy fields to find it, it's easier to feed and control portions and there is less risk of injury) it is not at all what is better for the horse. 

The reason I mention horses, not only because of the points raised above but also, is because they are another animal that we never truly domesticate and we can never be 100% certain of their actions. 

I think the bottom line is that we all do our best and that it is not for others to point blame as long we all understand all the risks and benefits of our actions.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Quote CoCoTrio "No one has called for all cats to be let out, but there have been many calls for all cats to be confined. The intolerance has so far all been seen on the side of the indoor crowd. 
Live and let live. Surely here in Cat Chat we all want what's best for our cats, and our neighbours' cats too"

Perhaps the indoor crowd just shout louder :lol: Defo agree CoCoTrio 'live and let live'. 
Em


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> Perhaps the indoor crowd just shout louder :lol:


Well I'm not aware of even a _whisper_ of a call for indoor cats to be all let out. It would be ridiculous. Admittedly it's slightly less unimaginable to call for all outdoor cats to be taken inside permanently - and even for that to be enforced by law, and _even_ to accuse those of us who thus far persist in letting them roam of being negligent and anti-social - but it nevertheless strikes me as unsympathetic to the interests of our cats, which you'd think would concern people here.

Anyway, fol-de-roll. Singing:


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

As Countryfile is focussed very much on nature and wildlife, I would imagine they wouldn't see it from the cat-owner's point of view, they would just be concerned with the amount of 'damage' a cat might do to the birds etc.. :wink:


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