# Cross Breeds?



## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

i may tred on some toes here but i have to ask the question .....

Why do people go out there way to breed cross breeds? I just don't understand why anyone would cross two dogs when there are so many wonderful breeds out there to choose form :

The breeding of cross breed dogs on purpose i feel is wrong. Accidents happen ok we deal with that but for anyone to go out there on purpose to cross breed two pure bred dogs is just plain mental.

If its not broken then why try to fix it? or even try to adjust it ?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I have to agree with you here, but i dont think this thread will run for long before getting closed.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> i may tred on some toes here but i have to ask the question .....
> 
> Why do people go out there way to breed cross breeds? I just don't understand why anyone would cross two dogs when there are so many wonderful breeds out there to choose form :
> 
> ...


Don't get you!? Why not cross breed if people like the pupsters and they end up with fab homes i don't see the problem, once upon a time only the rich had pedigree dogs and 'the rest of us' had crosses and mongrels! I think it is snobbery that makes people say such things!! I have 2 crosses and wouldn't change them for the world!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I am in 2 minds. If nobody deliberately bred I wouldn't have Luna but at the same time I think it's wrong especially as you get some really random crosses!


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I have to agree with you here, but i dont think this thread will run for long before getting closed.


Thank you for being honest

I just don't understand why anyone would go out their way to breed a cross breed dog when we have so many varieties of pure bred dogs out their to choose from . I just don't get it

From my point of view the breed i love is being destroyed thanks to bad breeders (BYB) and cross variations leading to "type" looking animals.

I do appreciate that accidents happen that is life but it is deliberate breeding that really bugs me and gets my back up !


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

Matrix/Logan said:


> Don't get you!? Why not cross breed if people like the pupsters and they end up with fab homes i don't see the problem, once upon a time only the rich had pedigree dogs and 'the rest of us' had crosses and mongrels! I think it is snobbery that makes people say such things!! I have 2 crosses and wouldn't change them for the world!


The problem is they don't ALL end up with fab homes!! Many end up in the worng hands and in reality a vast number end up in rescues!!


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## the melster (Mar 20, 2010)

Maistaff said:


> The problem is they don't ALL end up with fab homes!! Many end up in the worng hands and in reality a vast number end up in rescues!!


As do many 'pure breed' dogs.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> The problem is they don't ALL end up with fab homes!! Many end up in the worng hands and in reality a vast number end up in rescues!!


Yes i agree with you but then so do a lot of pedigree dogs so why single out the crosses? A lot of pedigrees go to their breed rescues which is why not as many are seen in rescues as mongrels and crosses, it doesn't mean that just because they are a cross they are MORE likely to end up in rescue..... sadly it is ALL dogs!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> The problem is they don't ALL end up with fab homes!! Many end up in the worng hands and in reality a vast number end up in rescues!!


the same applies for pedigrees too.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

the melster said:


> As do many 'pure breed' dogs.


For sure this is also true but i think if you had to do a percentage comparison i feel that the cross breeds would far out weigh the pure bred dogs


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> For sure this is also true but i think if you had to do a percentage comparison i feel that the cross breeds would far out weigh the pure bred dogs


where did pedigree dogs come from? their is bound to be more mongral/cross breeds because thats where dogs started from. God didnt just put dogs in pairs on the earth with pedigree papers attached. In a good few years some of the cross breeds today may become a recognised pedigree breed


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

here we go again!! lol


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> where did pedigree dogs come from? their is bound to be more mongral/cross breeds because thats where dogs started from. God didnt just put dogs in pairs on the earth with pedigree papers attached. In a good few years some of the cross breeds today may become a recognised pedigree breed


AGREE!!! :thumbup:


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

Matrix/Logan said:


> Yes i agree with you but then so do a lot of pedigree dogs so why single out the crosses? A lot of pedigrees go to their breed rescues which is why not as many are seen in rescues as mongrels and crosses, it doesn't mean that just because they are a cross they are MORE likely to end up in rescue..... sadly it is ALL dogs!


I do understand what you are saying and i agree that a lot of dogs end up in rescue

However the cross breeding of dogs as much as some people have lovely fantastic dogs out of it IMO is not needed.

From my point of view when discussing the Stafford i have seen so many cross breeds that really should never have happened e.g staffy JRT, Staffy Collie, Staffy EBT, Staffy mastiff etc etc With the breed i love i am standing back watching it be destroyed by constant bad breeding of cross breed types.

If not breeding for money then why else would anyone breed cross breeds? The designers lables they all get just add pounds to the price tags when in reality despite the name the dogs is no more than a cross breed.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> I do understand what you are saying and i agree that a lot of dogs end up in rescue
> 
> However the cross breeding of dogs as much as some people have lovely fantastic dogs out of it IMO is not needed.
> 
> ...


people cross breed if they want to produce good working dogs, Its common JRT x Staffy, it gives the dog more power.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> where did pedigree dogs come from? their is bound to be more mongral/cross breeds because thats where dogs started from. God didnt just put dogs in pairs on the earth with pedigree papers attached. In a good few years some of the cross breeds today may become a recognised pedigree breed


I agree and i know that is where the pedigree dogs came from ...

I do hope that some of the cross breeds of today NEVER become a recognised breed. Some certain breeds of dogs SHOULD NEVER be mixed yet some people go out their way to do so


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

the melster said:


> As do many 'pure breed' dogs.


Yes, but if you dig a bit deeper, you will find that a lot of 'pure bred' dogs who end up in rescue are from puppy farms and back yard breeders - because responsible breeders take their pups back or at least assist with rehoming - in fact, it's a mandatory requirement for Accredited breeders.

Since THAT programme about Pedigree Dogs and the many genetic conditions they carry, there are some people trying to 'con' the general public into believing that cross breeds will be healthier - and they are often sold, usually with no health tests or formal results, for MORE than their health tested pedigree counterparts.

I have already said this on another thread - but cross breeds actually carry a greater risk of a HIGHER number of inherited conditions than their pedigree counterparts, and I don't understand why people can't recognise this.

I have NOTHING against cross-breeds, as again I've said on other threads, they may excellent pets and companions, and have been successfully used in various 'working roles' such as assistance dogs, and services such as the army.

What I DO object to most strongly, is the deliberate breeding of them for no purpose - and often sold for VERY large sums of money as if they are something special, when they aren't 

if Labradors and Poodles really did produce non-shedding dogs, then fantastic - but they don't.

If there was a need for the traits of two breeds to be combined to undertake a specific job that can't be done by an existing breed - brilliant.

==============================

Other than that - if people want cross breeds - then go to a rescue - they have all shapes and sizes there and all ages from 7 weeks upwards.

Rescues get pregnant bitches dumped on them all the time - pedigrees and cross breeds - but these are not from responsible breeders - find me someone prepared to pay out thousands to do everything properly and then dump their pregnant bitch.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> people cross breed if they want to produce good working dogs, Its common JRT x Staffy, it gives the dog more power.


A staffy JRT is a bad mix. temprament of a JRT with the body and strength of Stafford :eek6::eek6:

I have met a few and thought how awfull, poor dogs that i have saw have tiny legs and a huge stafford body and head!! Felt so sorry for the poor dog to tell you the truth


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

swarthy said:


> What I DO object to most strongly, is the deliberate breeding of them for no purpose - and often sold for VERY large sums of money as if they are something special, when they aren't
> 
> ==============================
> 
> ...


Thank you ..


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*FORUMS RULES RE.THREADS AND CROSSBREEDS.
Important Rule regarding crossbreeds.*
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> I agree and i know that is where the pedigree dogs came from ...
> 
> I do hope that some of the cross breeds of today NEVER become a recognised breed. Some certain breeds of dogs SHOULD NEVER be mixed yet some people go out their way to do so


Sadly though it will always happen. the one good thing about people making up names is that people will know what cross they have got. Rather then say people advertise Jack russels and really they are JRT cross staffy as pups they will look just like JRT. My mam got a JRT x staffy that way she was told he was a pure JRT. saw parents .... or belived parents, anyone can say this was the dad and theirs no proof.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> A staffy JRT is a bad mix. temprament of a JRT with the body and strength of Stafford :eek6::eek6:
> 
> I have met a few and thought how awfull, poor dogs that i have saw have tiny legs and a huge stafford body and head!! Felt so sorry for the poor dog to tell you the truth


Yeah but some working people want power in a dog. my mams was bred by working people,


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *FORUMS RULES RE.THREADS AND CROSSBREEDS.
> Important Rule regarding crossbreeds.*
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html


Thank you for the rules

I will say my thread / topic was brought about the frustration i felt when i activly see people seeking out cross breeds on the forum especially those that really should not be mixed - period. These threads IMO give people ideas that these cross breeds are activly sought and could earn them an income ! Cross breeding IMO should not be activly promoted anywhere.

Sometime some threads may be wrong and upset some people in a obvious way but also those less subtle ones all upset and frustrate others !!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I understand there are rules on cross-breeding - and NO-ONE is in any way undermining CB as pets, companions or for many of the other valuable jobs they do.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Some pedigree's from good breeders dont go back to the breeder, some owners sell them on Just because its a good breeder doesnt mean the dog will go back thats down to the owner. They can not be forced by anyone to give the dog back to the breeder by law as far as i know. 

some cross breed breeder take back puppies, Mine did and that how i got Bear and shes Also got another one of her pups that needed a home again. :thumbup: 

Not everyone wants a dog that looks like bob's from down the road, I dont i like the not knowing what your going to get from them, The only think i dislike is stupid names (springermute for mine maybe?!) and some of the stupid crosses like crossing a small dog to a large breed thats unfair to the pups.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> Thank you for the rules
> 
> I will say my thread / topic was brought about the frustration i felt when i activly see people seeking out cross breeds on the forum especially those that really should not be mixed - period. These threads IMO give people ideas that these cross breeds are activly sought and could earn them an income ! Cross breeding IMO should not be activly promoted anywhere.
> 
> Sometime some threads may be wrong and upset some people in a obvious way but also those less subtle ones all upset and frustrate others !!


*And i repeat.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html
this rule was made for a good reason.There are loads of threads on this subject already.*


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Daynna said:


> Some pedigree's from good breeders dont go back to the breeder, some owners sell them on Just because its a good breeder doesnt mean the dog will go back thats down to the owner. They can not be forced by anyone to give the dog back to the breeder by law as far as i know.
> 
> some cross breed breeder take back puppies, Mine did and that how i got Bear and shes Also got another one of her pups that needed a home again. :thumbup:
> 
> Not everyone wants a dog that looks like bob's from down the road, I dont i like the not knowing what your going to get from them, The only think i dislike is stupid names (springermute for mine maybe?!) and some of the stupid crosses like crossing a small dog to a large breed thats unfair to the pups.


I completely agree with you. A breeder can only do their best for the puppies. Once sold surly its upto the owners what they do with their dog. But thats off topic sorry,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*LMAO where are the mods when rules are broken?:lol::lol:*


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *LMAO where are the mods when rules are broken?:lol::lol:*


LOL i tried to rep ya but need to spread some about


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Isn't it just breaking the rule when there's obvious bashing going on? i.e your pug/rott/chi/whatever is ugly and should never been born. What a horrible breeder/owner you are!

Or am I wrong? :lol:


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

Maistaff said:


> i may tred on some toes here but i have to ask the question .....
> 
> Why do people go out there way to breed cross breeds? I just don't understand why anyone would cross two dogs when there are so many wonderful breeds out there to choose form :
> 
> ...


all dogs are crossbreeds:thumbup:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Isn't it just breaking the rule when there's obvious bashing going on? i.e your pug/rott/chi/whatever is ugly and should never been born. What a horrible breeder/owner you are!
> 
> Or am I wrong? :lol:


*No.As far as i understood the rule it was any thread about designer dogs or crossbreeds.Perhaps the rules have changed.*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *No.As far as i understood the rule it was any thread about designer dogs or crossbreeds.Perhaps the rules have changed.*


I don't know Janice ... as long as there isn't any bashing I don't see the problem. All dogs are lovely


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

As we walked along, Sailor was looking up at me, with a sparkle in his eye, his tail held high and wagging.... he didnt even run over to the other dogs on the field intil they appraoched him first then he looked at me, as if to ask permission to go and play.....

When Sailor saw me changing direction and walkiing through a gate he looked worried and chased after me, because he doesnt want to walk beside any one other than his best friend, he doesnt want to be on his own, he doesnt want his best friend to be on her own ... "were a little pack you and I, we must stay together ..." I almost saw his expression say ... 

As we both climbed up the steep embankment, he realised his friend wasnt as fit and agile as he was, so he stopped to look back and waited long enough for his best friend to catch up....

As we walked back down the gravel track, with high bushes either side, he heard a noise from the bush , he paused and smelt the air and turrned to look behind, to check his friend was still close by, he sniffed the air again and didnt continue to walk on intil his friend was right behind him.... as if to make sure what ever he heard in the bush, wasnt going to catch us alone, it was going to have to catch us both together.....

When Sailor and I walked over to meet a few other dogs and owners on the field, he was very happy and friendly to meet and greet other dogs, he couldnt get enough of chasing the one dog and they both paused to catch their breath and have a good old pant together... Sailors expression said it all, he looked like a child waiting in a cue for ice cream :lol:
and when an elderly man called Sailor over for a fuss, Sailor immediately stopped playing with the other dog and gently walked over to the gentleman and received a well earned fuss.... now and then he would look over to his best friend with that signature smile that he inherited from his beautiful mom and it was obvious to see that he was one very happy dog.

and when I said ... "Sailor, Come"... did he hesitate to stop and play with the other dogs, did he wait, just for one extra fuss behind the ear off that friendly gentleman ?? no he didnt, he came running over to his best friend and sat as close as he could to her, with his but, resting on her foot.... tail wagging, tongue dangling.

Then as Sailor and I, his best friend headed off home... you could see a very happy dog, looking up contently at his best friend, and a young lady looking down at her best friend....

Sailor is in no way, shape or form a "RUINED STAFFY", he is a dog, just like any other dog and he deserves just as much right as your dogs, to walk the earth... 

now maybe you should vent your anger and frustration at "irresponsible breeders" and not at "cross breeds", because I have seen some truly cruel and irresponsible people breeding pure breeds and I have seen some of the most devoted and responsible people breeding cross breeds

the sad fact is, cross breeds and mongrels or poorly bred breeds are cheaper to get hold of and its easier to make quick money out of them, other wise these irresponsible people would have their hands on pedigrees too

Why should a dog have to have a pedigree paper or a purpose, before it can be born ?? why cant they just be born, because some one loves them and wants a friend who will be beside them for the rest of their little lives ... pure, cross or mongrel, they all deserve a chance at life and walk on this earth, who are we to deny that ?? 

I am in total agreement with all arguments on IRRESPONSIBLE breeders, but as for any arguments on CROSS BREEDS, you have no argument, because it just goes straight back to irresponsible breeders and has nothing to do with the actually poor dogs being born into it


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> Thank you for being honest
> 
> I just don't understand why anyone would go out their way to breed a cross breed dog when we have so many varieties of pure bred dogs out their to choose from . I just don't get it
> 
> ...


How do you think the 'breeds' were created in the first place?

By crossing other breeds!


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *And i repeat.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html
> this rule was made for a good reason.There are loads of threads on this subject already.*


yes i understand this BUT the forum is still activly promoting people seeking certain cross breeds : Surely you can see the wrong in this :


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

Maistaff said:


> yes i understand this BUT the forum is still activly promoting people seeking certain cross breeds : Surely you can see the wrong in this :


why is it wrong all dogs are crossbreeds bred for human satisfaction:thumbup:


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> How do you think the 'breeds' were created in the first place?
> 
> By crossing other breeds!


Please i am not thick ..

My point is through out this thread whay do peole insist on activly seeking cross breeds that should have never been bred in the first place. ?? Why do people go out their way to bred to unsuitable dog breeds?

I am not against accidental matings, this happens and it is life BUT i do not agree with matings that are meant to be and the breeders have gone out their way to breed to mixed dogs.

It wasn't so long ago cross breeds were worth peanuts ... now they are worth £££ its not rocket science to see why people are mating any old dog with any old dog. One thing for sure it isn't the dog / pups best intrest that is at heart


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

chianya said:


> lol your gonna love me i have a husky cross staff and she is the best ever i would of never got a pure as they wouldn't of been right 4 me at all but she is thank god 4 crosses


I am not knocking your dog and i am sure she is amazing with no doubt at all however given the choice you are right i am against breeding of the staffy x husky 200% .

To be frank i am against the cross breeding of a Stafford Period !! The breed has enough issues without pet owners breeding their pet willy nilly with any old dog they find. Its worng.


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

nearly all my hunting dogs are crossbreeds very healthy dogs never had any vet bills one of them is 14 fit as a fiddle and i am breeding more people want them:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

A couple of things, I think the thing about responsible breeders taking pups back, responsible breeders do keep in touch with people who take a pup, they don't breed so many pups that they can't, and so yes, they do take any pup back at any point in life to try and help when such a situation arises. It isn't just someone who says, oh yes, get in touch with me if you need to, then lets it drop. So no, I don't agree that many of the pedigrees ending up in rescue will at all be from what I would call a responsible breeder, they're from possibly a well meaning breeder, and there's a huge difference.

Maistaff, kudos to you for starting this debate, yes, it has been had many times, but it's always good to update it, for the latest fashion accessory coming out, and somone posting on the forum asking with the next boxapoo litter is available. The *names* of these cross breeds to me, are nothing more than a marketing ploy, they are done to make something seem attractive, of course pups are attractive any pup is attractive no matter what breeding, but advertise a litter of JRT x Westies, or a Jestie, and which do you think the non-educated public would buy?


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

borderer said:


> nearly all my hunting dogs are crossbreeds very healthy dogs never had any vet bills one of them is 14 fit as a fiddle and i am breeding more people want them:thumbup:


good luck to you - i am sure your bank balance will reap the rewards :thumbup:


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

chianya said:


> well not wrong 4 me :thumbup:


You may not think it BUT i am pleased. More so the pup has a great home its just a sad thought that not all these cross breed pups end up in such a good home


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

borderer said:


> why is it wrong all dogs are crossbreeds bred for human satisfaction:thumbup:


*100% agree as this thread is on the subject.:thumbup: And for those that dont like crossbreeds dont buy them.:lol:*


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Maistaff said:


> If not breeding for money then why else would anyone breed cross breeds?


Easy answer. Some that breed crossbreeds do so because they have a passion for breeding and animal husbandy, understand the dogs behind their lines and believe they have a dog in front worth breeding on from and have a goal in mind. I live where 90% of our dogs are unregistered and have personally known breeders of Alaskan Huskys (a non-registerable landrace) and the farm collies that have as much knowledge on their lines as any pedigree breeders.

As you have noted, others, just like many pedigree breeders, are just about the money or possibly have some ego gratification involved.



swarthy said:


> find me someone prepared to pay out thousands to do everything properly and then dump their pregnant bitch.


That is quite easy. My first Cavalier Spaniel foster (here in Alberta) was a pedigreed girl that was imported with an original price of $2500 as they are a rare breed here. She was bred from second heat on each season, and I took her in after her 8th litter as the "breeder" couldn't rehome her for a price on Kjiji. She had rarely seen the outside of a cage in four years. I took her in for free and she now lives with a lovely old couple who once hobby bred Cavaliers. She made that first owner a mint in puppy revenue and he still continues in Cavaliers and other small pure-breeds because purebred dogs fetch a good sum here.



sailor said:


> * . . . now maybe you should vent your anger and frustration at "irresponsible breeders" *and not at "cross breeds", because I have seen some truly cruel and irresponsible people breeding pure breeds and I have seen some of the most devoted and responsible people breeding cross breeds
> 
> the sad fact is, cross breeds and mongrels or poorly bred breeds are cheaper to get hold of and its easier to make quick money out of them, other wise these irresponsible people would have their hands on pedigrees too
> 
> ...


Thankyou for this post Sailor:thumbup:

CC


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *100% agree as this thread is on the subject.:thumbup: And for those that dont like crossbreeds dont buy them.:lol:*


who doesnt like crossbreeds? :confused1:


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *100% agree as this thread is on the subject.:thumbup: And for those that dont like crossbreeds dont buy them.:lol:*


I would rescue a cross breed perhaps but buy one ... erm think no. would never fund or advocate BYB

edited to add ... these cross breeds do these pet owners health check eg genetic health check? they may be cross breeds but they can still inherit the same issues !!


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Im not personaly going to get in to this thread, but for me a dog whatever breed or cross is a dog and I love them all


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chianya said:


> and also not all pedigrees end up in good homes i know someone who had a bassett hound she had it 4 six months then sold it on cos she couldn't be bothered with it, it was her 3rd dog in 2 years. i sometimes think ppl with money buy on a whim then get board and there the ones who probably won't look twice at a cross


I'd have to say, I think a greater number of pedigrees are byb's and pf's than responsible breeders, so that does not surprise me. If you look at Labradors, over 50,000 are registered in recent years, I think over 55,000 in 2008 with the KC, how many of those do you think were responsible breeders? And then you get people who breed with the dog down the road and don't bother registering the litter, even if they can. Depending on the breed, you will see this to a greater or lesser extent, there won't be many byb's/pf's for something like a basenji for instance, although I'm sure that would change should they become popular. Fox red Labradors are something of a fashion statement recently, I know of someone who's photograph of their dog was used in an advert unbeknownst to them, having *sired* said litter. Needless to say, once found out the advert was swiftly removed!!!

These breeders are just as bad as those who breed the latest most fashionable cross.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Fox red Labradors are something of a fashion statement recently,


That phase was about some years ago too, didnt last long then either.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Doesn't make it any easier for the person whose photograph was used, lifted off her website. I often get asked about Tau, as she's very pale choc, if I could breed for that I could make a fortune. Fact is, I couldn't care less what colour she is, as long as she's a good example to me of what a Labrador should be. Unfortunately chocolate Labradors still are, and it looks like they will be for quite some time (judging by the amount of ex breeding bitches/stud dogs going through rescue) the fashion victims of the Labrador world.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

So In effect what we have then if we cant talk about cross breeds is a dog forum which discriminates

there are some very ethical breeders of labradoodles, schnoodles, cockerpoos etc.. who do follow more stringent testing of thier dogs than some pedigree breeders

The outlook here from some is may be a little tilted one way

Dogs from all walks of breed  will end up in rescue or back at the breeders, whether we talk about cross breeding or not. I just find some of the posts here insulting to those who do breed 2 breeds ethicaly and on a dog forum they are made to feel sub standard


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think the thing for me is why people WANT a dog, do they look through dog breeds, and think I want one like that? Or do they get involved with dogs, and try to find one from there? 

I think, and I could be overgeneralising here, the people who are ardent advocates of rescue on here, probably did the latter, and have rescued dogs because of how they've become involved with dogs. 

You then get people who think, I admire that breed of dog, I like what it does, the breed traits, and I want one like that.

Then it becomes a bit more difficult, there's no difference between *some* breeders of pedigrees, and those of well bred cross breeds, where they are bred from health tested stock, brought up and homes found just as well as you would want to find. 

From there, you get the whole downward spiral of everyone breeding for money, and unfortunately, that involves all dogs, but, and this is one thing that does get my back up, the names of some of the cross breeds, which are coined as a marketing ploy, and then the dogs are bred. 

It always makes me chuckle that Labradors didn't actually originate from Labrador, but were named as such because of bad geography knowledge, never mind eh! The original name wasn't quite so catchy, the St John's Dog.


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

quote from my book:

'owners of purebred dogs too often forget that all breeds of dogs are interrelated. the ancient canine that is believed the ancestor of all dogs is known as Tomarctus. as packs traveled and inhabited various lands, types evolved through the process of adaption. later, as dog and man joined forces, type became further diversified.'

with a few exceptions, dogs evolved or changed as a result of a specific functional need.
these needs are man made.




a world without cross-breeds and your variety 57 dogs would be very boring IMO!
i do like to see the scruffy looking cross in the park or the strange looking lab/staffy Bobby!
i love diversity and difference.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sarahnorris said:


> quote from my book:
> 
> 'owners of purebred dogs too often forget that all breeds of dogs are interrelated. the ancient canine that is believed the ancestor of all dogs is known as Tomarctus. as packs traveled and inhabited various lands, types evolved through the process of adaption. later, as dog and man joined forces, type became further diversified.'
> 
> ...


I don't think that's true of those who breed ethically/responsibly, those type of breeders have done their homework, and know what's behind the lines they're using.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think the thing for me is why people WANT a dog, do they look through dog breeds, and think I want one like that? Or do they get involved with dogs, and try to find one from there?
> 
> I think, and I could be overgeneralising here, the people who are ardent advocates of rescue on here, probably did the latter, and have rescued dogs because of how they've become involved with dogs.
> 
> ...


For me I was bought up with Poodles but always walked mans up the road Lab, dont know why cos I was just a kid then, but later in life wanted a Lab, had approx 27 in my life now, and would never change my mind about them, BUT would take another breed, I love all dogs


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> Im not personaly going to get in to this thread, but for me a dog whatever breed or cross is a dog and I love them all


NOT one person has said on this thread that they don't like cross breeds - a dog is a dog, and like you, I love them all in all shapes and sizes as I am sure everyone who has posted on this thread does.

My objection is those who proclaim they are breeding some new fancy breed irresponsibly and charging a lot of money for the pups 

Likewise however, the argument that they will be healthier than their pedigree counterparts is rubbish, when in reality, the large majority will be at risk of double the health problems 

--------------------

Many breeds we have now do originate from cross breeds, this is true - and most were bred for a specific purpose.

I know some of the assistance dog schemes sometimes deliberately produce cross breeds, presumably (hopefully) because the two breeds chosen have complementary skills which make them better for a particular job - and if there is a case for that then who are any of us to argue?

Joanne is right, that in breeds like labradors, a very large majority of pups are bred by BYB and PF 

Many criticise breeders full stop because they claim there are too many in rescue already - but the fact remains that demand for puppies in certain breeds is high, too high IMO in some instances - but - if this demand is not met by the responsible breeders - and people refuse to go down the rescue route, then this gap is filled by the very breeders I think most here will agree need to be stopped 

This was possibly even more prevalent last year, as many breeders held back from breeding because of the economic climate.

The other difficulty is many people simply don't want to wait - we live in a society where people want something NOW and that's exactly what they do - because when faced with a litter of puppies, for a lot of people. common sense simply flies out of the window  often resulting in considerable heartache for the owners and enormous pain and sometimes even death for the dogs 

Coming back to the original posters comments on this thread - I am quite staggered by the number of people who start threads asking for 'x' or 'y' with a name - for a breed that doesn't exist - that's someone somewhere doing some very powerful and clearly successful marketing 

----------------------

While I will never approve, I know there are people breeding Labrador / Poodle crosses who DO do all the health tests - all credit to them - but they still often market these dogs as 'hype-allergenic' - when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth 

Likewise, I am sure there are other cross breeders who do do all the tests.

I guess my question is why? when I breed, I breed to improve my line hopefully both in health terms and conformationally while maintaining their temperament - this involves often years of research into dogs, pedigrees, offspring etc to hopefully make the right decision to achieve this.

I do show my dogs, which i know some people don't agree with - and now, having seen the enjoyment they get out of doing what they were bred for, I am now in the early stages of working training as well.

=============================

I guess - my question for someone producing crossbreeds is how can you do that level of research - how can you monitor the lineage and be as sure as you can be the parentage is true? How can you know where the risks are in the pedigrees, and what can, and what won't cause a problem both in terms of health and temperament.

Yes, in both instances we are dealing with mother nature, and she likes to throw the odd spanner in the works - but in the main, there are far more uncertainties with cross-breeds.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> For me I was bought up with Poodles but always walked mans up the road Lab, dont know why cos I was just a kid then, but later in life wanted a Lab, had approx 27 in my life now, and would never change my mind about them, BUT would take another breed, I love all dogs


So there was obviously something about Labs you love, you'd probably admire other breeds if you get to know them, and perhaps have one of those? But, you wouldn't window shop and think ooooh, a boxapoo, sounds fab, I'll have three?? And unfortunately (apologies to any boxapoo owners) there are people out there that are numpty enough to think along those lines.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

it also annoys me when people decided to mate two dogs together just to make some money without thinking of the consiquences, but that isn't just for x breeds but for all breeds. They are far to many dogs getting euthanised as a result.

I personally don't mind X breeds either, i am actually considering a x breed for my 2nd dog. i plan to get him from a rescue and train him in agility.....


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So there was obviously something about Labs you love, you'd probably admire other breeds if you get to know them, and perhaps have one of those? But, you wouldn't window shop and think ooooh, a boxapoo, sounds fab, I'll have three?? And unfortunately (apologies to any boxapoo owners) there are people out there that are numpty enough to think along those lines.


Agree, and yes I am Lab mad, will get another one someday:frown:


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

question: so if we don't buy these cross breed puppies that people breed or sell ect ect whatever and so forth then is it better than them ending up unwanted and put in the kennels because assuming they were not sold that's probs what would happen to them either that or ....

have been reading and just trying to get my head around it and understand it all.
sorry for being a tad dumb. :/


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> That is quite easy. My first Cavalier Spaniel foster (here in Alberta) was a pedigreed girl that was imported with an original price of $2500 as they are a rare breed here. She was bred from second heat on each season, and I took her in after her 8th litter as the "breeder" couldn't rehome her for a price on Kjiji.


If I said what I would like to do to anyone who took 8 litters from a bitch I would be banned 

I am talking about those people who invest in their lines and don't ever make any money out of it, not those who make a mint out of them, and then probably got rid, because I would imagine a bitch on her 8th back to back litter could quite likely face complications which equals high vets bills, possible loss of bitch and pups, or the need to do some hard work in raising the pups if the bitch died


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sarahnorris said:


> question: so if we don't buy these cross breed puppies that people breed or sell ect ect whatever and so forth then is it better than them ending up unwanted and put in the kennels because assuming they were not sold that's probs what would happen to them either that or ....
> 
> have been reading and just trying to get my head around it and understand it all.
> sorry for being a tad dumb. :/


You are not being dumb - and this is a question that arises often, not just for cross breeds but for pedigree pups (KC registered and non-kC registered) who have often been born in the most appalling circumstances from parents who have not even undergone the most basic of health tests and don't know what it;s like to run free in a field, or enjoy normal human contact 

In an ideal world, the authorities would be doing something about these breeders - who have to be licensed, sadly, it seems that doesn't happen - and living in the heart of the UK's PF region, there are many of them about.

The problem is, if people buy these pups, the breeders will produce more - if they don't - then they won't - although it could be argued they will simply find 'another popular breed'.

I seriously don't know the answer - and I suspect neither does anyone else, because if they did - the worst breeders would be gone by now 

Regards Cross-breeds, if someone truly believes there is a case for a deliberate cross breed - then prove it by establishing a line and getting it registered as a recognised breed, it can and has happened if there is a valid reason for it.

====================

After the war, (gleaned from another forum) there was a pink ticket system to allow the interbreeding of retrievers to widen the gene pool - if you go back through most of the current day labradors, you will find Flatcoats and Interbred retrievers in the pedigrees - and believe me, the research that goes into establishing that you wouldn't believe.


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

chianya said:


> cross breeds r more healthier than pedigree my vets told me that and a bbc documentary has proved it


so they say.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Was this documentary pedigrees exposed by any chance??

I think it's bull. Pedigrees and crosses imo have equal chances of getting sick.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Actually, there is a lot of theoretical evidence, but not really enough *hard* evidence to prove cross breeds are healthier overall than pedigrees imo, just more data relating to various pedigrees. There isn't enough evidence one way or the other to prove that cross breeds are generally healthier and longer lived, and after owning a very unhealthy oldie cross breed, I can confirm they can have joint issues, eye issues, and with her being a collie cross, behavioural issues. If you saw my comments recently on a thread, they related to the fact that many smaller breeds, terriers and toys in particular, are longer lived, a lot of crosses will have these smaller breeds in, and so will obviously increase life expectency in relation to any larger breed included in their background. 

As far as buying all these cross breeds go, yes, it just encourages the next litter, and the next, without any health testing or regulation, so buying pups fuels demand, simple as that.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chianya said:


> cross breeds r more healthier than pedigree my vets told me that and a bbc documentary has proved it


 Hybrid Vigour is a MYTH

It can only exist if there are no common genetic problems between the breeds - and the minute you breed on a cross breed with either a pedigree or cross breed - you open up that breed to double, treble or even quadruple the number of genetic conditions you started with.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Basically Its never going to be resolved.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

chianya said:


> cross breeds r more healthier than pedigree my vets told me that and a bbc documentary has proved it


Sorry but complete twaddle. The 2 x breeds will carry the genetic faults of both sides.

Unless of course the breeder of the X is an ethical breeder and has done all the relevant health tests relevant to the 2 breeds.

Some do...majotity don't


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Was this documentary pedigrees exposed by any chance??
> 
> I think it's bull. Pedigrees and crosses imo have equal chances of getting sick.


isn't in regards to diseases and cancer that are prone in certain pedigree dogs?, which obv people are trying to breed out of the dogs?

Bernese Mountain Dog:Histiocytic sarcoma (soft tissues)
Boxer:Brain Cancer|Lymphoma (lymph nodes)
Cocker Spaniel:Lymphoma (lymph nodes)
Golden Retriever:Lymphoma (lymph nodes)|Hemangiosarcoma (blood vessels/spleen)
(60% of Golden Retrievers Die of Cancer)
Chow Chow:Stomach Cancer
Greyhound:Osteosarcoma (bone)

so on and so forth?


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

I have nothing against cross breeds but would never buy one for the simple fact I think most people do it irresponsibly for money.

If someone was breeding a well thought out, health tested and well cared for cross breed then I may consider it but would prefer to rescue to be honest.

What I do have a massive issue with is the byb breeding of Staffie's and Staffie crosses 

They are WONDERFUL dogs that are getting such a bad rap at the minute and people breeding them left right and center is doing nothing to help them as a breed.

We need more responsible Stafford breeders and stop the BYB's. 

I went to a local dog pound a couple of days ago to donate some food and blankets and out of the 53 dogs in care 45 of them were Staffs or Staff crosses, thats disgusting!

If people would stop breeding them poorly then more people may look to rescue and hopefully help them out.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There is no genetic test for cancer, and it's only really responsible pedigree breeders that test for and breed clear of other genetic conditions. 

The majority of byb's and pf's including cross breeders, don't bother, at best, they use a health tested stud dog who is clear, but that doesn't mean that they are the best example of their breed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chianya said:


> well i was told that by cross breeding u eliminate problems


Unfortunately, too simplistic and simply wrong


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> I have nothing against cross breeds but would never buy one for the simple fact I think most people do it irresponsibly for money.
> 
> If someone was breeding a well thought out, health tested and well cared for cross breed then I may consider it but would prefer to rescue to be honest.
> 
> ...


Well said..as with other breeds too but completely agree with you in particular with the poor Staffs and their crossing.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sarahnorris said:


> isn't in regards to diseases and cancer that are prone in certain pedigree dogs?, which obv people are trying to breed out of the dogs?
> 
> Bernese Mountain Dog:Histiocytic sarcoma (soft tissues)
> Lymphoma (lymph nodes)
> ...


I'm not sure how you can breed out cancers but things like HD and ED yes I think you can breed it out by breeding from 0:0 stock.

If you're not health testing your dogs pedigree or cross you won't know what problems they have. 1 pup in the litter could be extremely lucky and have no problems, the other pup could have all the problems.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

have nothing against cross breeds but would never buy one for the simple fact I think most people do it irresponsibly for money.


But people breed pure breds for money too


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ummm, not necessarily, I have a 0:0 hip and elbow scored/graded bitch, it is highly unlikely that I will, if I go ahead and breed, produce any offspring with as good a score/grade as her, would you count that as a failure?

For the ooodles of health tests we know about, there are umpteen other things we don't, and don't test for, because they are simply not a problem with a breed. Health testing allows us to look at what is considered a problem within a breed, and make appropriate decisions, you can't do this with cross breeding unless you have an awful lot of knowledge about both breeds and the lines being used.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

chianya said:


> well i was told that by cross breeding u eliminate problems


Sorry but that is untrue. Take for example my rescue bitch. Shih Tzu X Poodle.

She could carry the genetic faults of the shih and the poodle so in fact doubling up on problems she may develope.

It is also another line breeders of these "new breed" X's use when adding on the £ signs.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ummm, not necessarily, I have a 0:0 hip and elbow scored/graded bitch, it is highly unlikely that I will, if I go ahead and breed, produce any offspring with as good a score/grade as her, would you count that as a failure?
> 
> For the ooodles of health tests we know about, there are umpteen other things we don't, and don't test for, because they are simply not a problem with a breed. Health testing allows us to look at what is considered a problem within a breed, and make appropriate decisions, you can't do this with cross breeding unless you have an awful lot of knowledge about both breeds and the lines being used.


Ah right sorry. So if you have mum and dad as 0:0 how would a pup end up with say a 6:3?

I wouldn't count it as a failiure I'm trust trying to understand how it works. The lower the scores the better I've always been told or rather that's how responsible breeding is carried out anyway


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Ah right sorry. So if you have mum and dad as 0:0 how would a pup end up with say a 6:3?
> 
> I wouldn't count it as a failiure I'm trust trying to understand how it works. The lower the scores the better I've always been told or rather that's how responsible breeding is carried out anyway


Hip scores are a guide, elbow scores a rough guide!!

So yes, you wouldn't want to use a dog with a much higher than average BMS, Swarthy will confirm I'm sure, but as far as I am aware, of all the 0:0 hip scored Labradors, there has only been one 0:0 bred from parents with scores of 0:0. So, just because you have a dog with low hip scores, does not mean you will produce pups with low hip scores


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## pookiekim (May 14, 2010)

People only ever breed for money, unless you don't have a family and have 100 dogs running around. I have 5 kids, so sell on all my cross breeds, i cross breed my staffies all the time, easy money


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hip scores are a guide, elbow scores a rough guide!!
> 
> So yes, you wouldn't want to use a dog with a much higher than average BMS, Swarthy will confirm I'm sure, but as far as I am aware, of all the 0:0 hip scored Labradors, there has only been one 0:0 bred from parents with scores of 0:0. So, just because you have a dog with low hip scores, does not mean you will produce pups with low hip scores


Right right I see :thumbup: so basically you're just doing your best to make sure the scores can be low as possible though you may not succeed all of the time.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

pookiekim said:


> People only ever breed for money, unless you don't have a family and have 100 dogs running around. I have 5 kids, so sell on all my cross breeds, i cross breed my staffies all the time, easy money


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

sequeena said:


> I'm not sure how you can breed out cancers but things like HD and ED yes I think you can breed it out by breeding from 0:0 stock.


How much have you analysed the figures?

I have analysed over 54K hipscoring records - to date, in the UK, there has been ONE case of two zero scored parents producing a zero scoring offspring.

It is important to breed responsibly, i.e. by looking at scores below or around the breed average, but it also important to look at the whole dog, temperament should always be up there with health. I would rather take a litter from two dogs with super temperaments scoring 10 a piece on their hips, than two cantankerous gits with 0:0 hipscores 

I agree it is important to test to know exactly what you are working with, and to work within responsible parameters my easily best bitch here will never be bred from, because of one poor result in a whole battery of tests - yet her background in terms of health results was impeccable 

I did look for a PhD supervisor who would take me on to look into the hip dysplasia element in labradors, looking at genetic -v- environmental factors.

The hypothesis being you can't cause HD unless a dog is pre-disposed to it.

However, you CAN prevent HD in a dog pre-disposed to it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Exactly. Part of that is looking into the background of your your dog, and the dog you plan to use, and trying to see if there is any pattern of hip scores in the background


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chianya said:


> i wasn't told that by a breeder saw it on tv and my vet told me so u lot r sayin there wrong


Yes, they are wrong, generalising far too much, and producing programmes that are biased using specific breeds


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

swarthy said:


> How much have you analysed the figures?
> 
> I have analysed over 54K hipscoring records - to date, in the UK, there has been ONE case of two zero scored parents producing a zero scoring offspring.
> 
> ...





Sleeping_Lion said:


> Exactly. Part of that is looking into the background of your your dog, and the dog you plan to use, and trying to see if there is any pattern of hip scores in the background


I admit to knowing nothing about breeding at all and didn't realise 0:0 dogs is like finding a needle in a haystack .. I'd have thought there would at least be SOME in each breed.

So basically with each generation you hope to bring down the scores? I get that  And it must be hard not being able to breed from an almost perfect bitch but knowing if you do you may live to regret it.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

If your vet is saying crossbreeds are healthier all of the time when compared to pedigrees I'd have to ask where they got their degree from 

It's common sense that if you have a cross where the parents had certain conditions they've got a very high chance of having the same conditions. Same with pedigrees and that's why health testing is important but not every person breeding pedigrees or crossbreeds does that and then owners of the resulting pups go on to breed and well ... you can imagine how big the problem is.


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## Emmily (Mar 22, 2010)

It is widely believed that cross breeds are on average healthier than pedigrees, a few denials is not going to change that opinion.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I admit to knowing nothing about breeding at all and didn't realise 0:0 dogs is like finding a needle in a haystack .. I'd have thought there would at least be SOME in each breed.
> 
> So basically with each generation you hope to bring down the scores? I get that  And it must be hard not being able to breed from an almost perfect bitch but knowing if you do you may live to regret it.


But within some breeds, it will, as it has already in cases, plateau. If a genetic test were available, you might be able to choose a dog to give you lower hip scores, but would that give you a better dog overall? After all, don't forget, some of the dogs with very high scores don't show any symptoms of dysplasia throughout their entire lives, and yet some with lower scores do.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

That's another point ... environment. That's why breeds (or crossbreeds) prone to problems such as HD are restricted in jumping/going up and down stairs/etc when they're young 

Wow, quite amazing and confusing stuff this genetics/environment business.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chianya said:


> i wasn't told that by a breeder saw it on tv and my vet told me so u lot r sayin there wrong


I can guess which programme you are talking about. And sadly, many vets actually know very little about breeding  if I had a penny for the number of vets I've heard about who don't know about hip and elbow scoring I would be very rich.

In their defence, you could argue over which breeds they should know about - there are about 250 registered in the UK - but it wouldn't hurt them to keep the information to hand in case a customer enquires.

As has been said before, there is an arguement for "hybrid vigour" for 1st generation crosses - but this only holds water if the two breeds have absolutely no common genetic faults.

The majority of large breeds for example, can be more prone to joint problems - therefore a common gene.

Small breeds can be prone to luxating patella - longer breeds can be prone to back problems.

Many breeds suffer from PRA which causes total blindness.

Recessive genes need to find a gene to match with - and away to go, the problem exists in the cross-breed.

Introduce the same cross-breed, or another cross-breed or pedigree dog, and you have the genetic issues they suffer from, plus the existing genetic problems with your cross breed.

If a genetic condition is dominant, it doesn't need to find a matching gene - and therefore if the other breed didn't suffer from it, the cross breed easily can.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But within some breeds, it will, as it has already in cases, plateau. If a genetic test were available, you might be able to choose a dog to give you lower hip scores, but would that give you a better dog overall? After all, don't forget, some of the dogs with very high scores don't show any symptoms of dysplasia throughout their entire lives, and yet some with lower scores do.


I think we can safely say I'm never going to breed a dog then :lol:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nobody is saying pedigrees are healthier!!! Health testing is the key!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chianya said:


> ok well i will tell my qualified vet he is lying cos ppl on a chat site say so


Please do tell them that they are spreading false rumours, and to try and educate themselves a bit better. Vets are not infallible, they are human, form opinions, and are prone to the same generalisations as the rest of us. They are general practitioners with many species and breeds to treat, so how can they be knowledgeable about one particular aspect, unless it's something they specialise in.



Emmily said:


> It is widely believed that cross breeds are on average healthier than pedigrees, a few denials is not going to change that opinion.


I think it's already been shown that hybrid vigour is a myth, believe what you like. My cross breed was entirely unhealthy, much less healthy than any of the pedigrees I've owned.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Please do tell them that they are spreading false rumours, and to try and educate themselves a bit better. Vets are not infallible, they are human, form opinions, and are prone to the same generalisations as the rest of us. They are general practitioners with many species and breeds to treat, so how can they be knowledgeable about one particular aspect, unless it's something they specialise in.


Totally off topic but your mention of GP made me remember something. My 1 year old niece was very unwell, her doctor (had been practicing for over 20 years) wrote it off as a bad cold. The next day she was in hospital being treated for a burst appendix. She was lucky she got there in time as she only had an hour left if nothing was done 

Just goes to show even the most trusted professionals do get it wrong.

Ok, back to dogs


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I can guess which programme you are talking about. And sadly, many vets actually know very little about breeding  if I had a penny for the number of vets I've heard about who don't know about hip and elbow scoring I would be very rich.
> 
> In their defence, you could argue over which breeds they should know about - there are about 250 registered in the UK - but it wouldn't hurt them to keep the information to hand in case a customer enquires.
> 
> ...


Good post 

Chianya this is why I used my dog as an example so as not to offend anyone. The combination of her 2 breeds does most definatly not mean she is or will be healthier than a pedigree dog.

She sadly carries the possibility of the genetic problems of both breeds. Just because her mother was not put to another Shih or her dad to a poodle or vice versa does most definatly not mean she is healthier and all genetic problems have been knocked out.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Please do tell them that they are spreading false rumours, and to try and educate themselves a bit better. Vets are not infallible, they are human, form opinions, and are prone to the same generalisations as the rest of us. They are general practitioners with many species and breeds to treat, so how can they be knowledgeable about one particular aspect, unless it's something they specialise in.
> 
> I think it's already been shown that hybrid vigour is a myth, believe what you like. My cross breed was entirely unhealthy, much less healthy than any of the pedigrees I've owned.


with my experience of cats ive had healthier moggies then pedigrees. So i guess the key is go to a reputable breeder and research properly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Totally off topic but your mention of GP made me remember something. My 1 year old niece was very unwell, her doctor (had been practicing for over 20 years) wrote it off as a bad cold. The next day she was in hospital being treated for a burst appendix. She was lucky she got there in time as she only had an hour left if nothing was done
> 
> Just goes to show even the most trusted professionals do get it wrong.
> 
> Ok, back to dogs


I took my two to a specialist, Indie was having follow up appointments following a meniscus pad repair. I thought the specialist would find it interesting to see such close relations, they are so similar in some respects, but with small differences. Despite the similarities, he could see differences in Tau's structure, that made him much prefer her as a functional Labrador. He didn't know she had the 0:0 hip and elbow scores/grades, that was just his opinion, goes to show, some people perhaps know what they are looking at.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I took my two to a specialist, Indie was having follow up appointments following a meniscus pad repair. I thought the specialist would find it interesting to see such close relations, they are so similar in some respects, but with small differences. Despite the similarities, he could see differences in Tau's structure, that made him much prefer her as a functional Labrador. He didn't know she had the 0:0 hip and elbow scores/grades, that was just his opinion, goes to show, some people perhaps know what they are looking at.


Exactly sometimes they're spot on and sometimes they're way off. It's just human nature I think


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

But are we talking purely cross breeds? as in 2 pedigree's being crossed. Or are we talking about mongrels? I personally, and from experience would say mongrels are healthier, but crosses i personally would get a pedigree over a cross, and a mongrel over both....but i am biased as i love my mongrels :lol:


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> with my experience of cats ive had healthier moggies then pedigrees. So i guess the key is go to a reputable breeder and research properly.


Yes DK...agree there. And as everyone has said its down to health testing wether X's or pedigrees.

But there are also vets (while we are talking vets) who think that a quick look at a bitchs' teeth, ears, nails and coat is a health check and a licence to give the ok to an uneducated owner to breed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

tafwoc said:


> But are we talking purely cross breeds? as in 2 pedigree's being crossed. Or are we talking about mongrels? I personally, and from experience would say mongrels are healthier, but crosses i personally would get a pedigree over a cross, and a mongrel over both....but i am biased as i love my mongrels :lol:


I think the OP was asking about the next best thing, must have type of cross.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Nobody is saying pedigrees are healthier!!! Health testing is the key!


TBH - this brief sentence just about sums it up.

While I don't, and wil struggle to ever agree with deliberate cross breeding without good reason, who am I (or anyone else) to criticise those who do do it by the book?

I know there are some (albeit not in abundance) that do test.

Sadly, it is also true, that in both pedigree and cross breeding, health testing alone does not make a good breeder 

I have always been fascinated by statistics - and (with a little help from a friend) we actually broke down the completel analysis of the hipscoring database and came up with some very interesting information and probabilities of what and wouldn't produce acceptable hipscores.

I have to say, we were delighted to discover that our results were closely correlated to a similar exercise undertaken on the other side of the pond with an almost equally large sample size.

Severe HD does tend to manifest itself quite early on in a puppy's life (around 5/6 months) - but there are also owners walking around blissfully unaware that they have dogs with appalling hips - and then you will get dogs that move in the most awkward manner who have excellent hips.

I know they are looking into a DNA test for HD and believe that they may have isolated a hormone in the mothers milk which can protect those pups genetically predisposed to HD - and if the hormone isn't present, then it can be supplemented. How far they are away from perfecting this I have no idea - years I suspect.

A lot of pet owners believe that because they may not want to show / work or do agility with their dogs, that hipscoring isn't as important, when actually, it is probably MORE important for pet only homes.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

tafwoc said:


> But are we talking purely cross breeds? as in 2 pedigree's being crossed. Or are we talking about mongrels? I personally, and from experience would say mongrels are healthier, but crosses i personally would get a pedigree over a cross, and a mongrel over both....but i am biased as i love my mongrels :lol:


I've always found total heinz 57's to be completely problem free (the ones my family have had anyway). Maybe there's so much of a mix in them the genes think 'wtf do we go for first' and just give up :lol:


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## Emmily (Mar 22, 2010)

Your welcome chianya, I firmly believe what I said, and no one will convince me over wise. 

Sleeping_Lion, sorry you had such a bad time with your cross breed, I did say on average, not all.

This reads to me as the size and shape of a dog related to possible health issues more than whether it's pedigree or cross breed.



swarthy said:


> I can guess which programme you are talking about. And sadly, many vets actually know very little about breeding  if I had a penny for the number of vets I've heard about who don't know about hip and elbow scoring I would be very rich.
> 
> In their defence, you could argue over which breeds they should know about - there are about 250 registered in the UK - but it wouldn't hurt them to keep the information to hand in case a customer enquires.
> 
> ...


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

deb53 said:


> Yes DK...agree there. And as everyone has said its down to health testing wether X's or pedigrees.
> 
> But there are also vets (while we are talking vets) who think that a quick look at a bitchs' teeth, ears, nails and coat is a health check and a licence to give the ok to an uneducated owner to breed.


I guess thats ignorance on their part. (the vets) as an owner you should be able to have complete trust in vets but sadly this isnt always the case.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

deb53 said:


> Yes DK...agree there. And as everyone has said its down to health testing wether X's or pedigrees.


Not my experience, the least healthy dog I owned was a cross breed, she was an oldie rescue, had a number of health related issues, joints, skin tags, deformed soft palate, and a few behavioural problems, she was part collie, and some of them seemed related to that.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I dont think any dog is healthier then the other really they all run the same risks. Apart from when its bro/sister mother/son etc


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I dont think any dog is healthier then the other really they all run the same risks. Apart from when its bro/sister mother/son etc


Sums it up for me, whether pedigree or a cross breed, a dog will inherit genetic conditions. With certain pedigrees you can, unfortunately, point the finger at one or more conditions, but, how many people regularly test cross breeds for conditions? I doubt whether there are many who do, and whether the information is there to ascertain just how many are of a certain status, score or grade.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I guess thats ignorance on their part. (the vets) as an owner you should be able to have complete trust in vets but sadly this isnt always the case.


I feel Because a vets field is medicine????

Not many know the ins and out of breeding. Yes they know when there is a problem. The vet I used to work with used to say that in all his years he saw far more many caesers and hardly any "natural" births.

They are not up on dog breeds let alone the tests that each individual breed needs to be health tested.

There are of course vets that breed or show or work dogs themselves and will and do know but to others, to know every breed registered and their relevant tests is just not in their training.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not my experience, the least healthy dog I owned was a cross breed, she was an oldie rescue, had a number of health related issues, joints, skin tags, deformed soft palate, and a few behavioural problems, she was part collie, and some of them seemed related to that.


Sorry Hun you lost me there??? I was saying its down to health testing and you said you didnt agree there as your rescue had problems.

Surely if her parents were health tested then a lot of these would hopefully not have happened or have I mis-read....getting late and i'm tired :lol::lol::lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

deb53 said:


> Sorry Hun you lost me there??? I was saying its down to health testing and you said you didnt agree there as your rescue had problems.
> 
> Surely if her parents were health tested then a lot of these would hopefully not have happened or have I mis-read....getting late and i'm tired :lol::lol::lol:


You agreed with DK's post, about having healthier moggies, which to me, equates to healthier cross breeds generally  Hope I didn't misinterpret.....


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You agreed with DK's post, about having healthier moggies, which to me, equates to healthier cross breeds generally  Hope I didn't misinterpret.....


Oops sorry told you I was tired.....DK said about going to reputable breeders and researching to which I was agreeing (I should have highlighted that bit)

I was agreeing to that bit and followed on by saying about health testing.

God I think I need to go to sleep :lol::lol: I got confused myself then to what I had answered to

edit : reputable as in doing health testing on both sides


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

deb53 said:


> Oops sorry told you I was tired.....DK said about going to reputable breeders and researching to which I was agreeing (I should have highlighted that bit)
> 
> I was agreeing to that bit and followed on by saying about health testing.
> 
> ...


Not a problem, it is after beer o'clock after all!! The problem is, spotting responsible breeders amongst all those who offer pedigrees and cross breeds, even for people who know what to look for and questions to ask it can be difficult, it's easy to see how difficult it can be for someone who just wants to buy a puppy.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not a problem, it is after beer o'clock after all!! The problem is, spotting responsible breeders amongst all those who offer pedigrees and cross breeds, even for people who know what to look for and questions to ask it can be difficult, it's easy to see how difficult it can be for someone who just wants to buy a puppy.


Most definatly...and with vets giving ridiculous advice rather than educating prospective owners re health testing it IS down to forums like this to advise and educate Joe Public out there who are looking to buy a pup and have no idea re tests and believe in the Old wives Tale of X's are more healthier than pedigrees.

There will always be people who want a X that will never change no matter what anyone says but to educate people who want a X to go to someone who has taken the responsibility and health tested both the parents is a step in the right direction to prevent these crazy people who want to just "try and see how they turn out" from churning out puppies just for fun and £'s


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

chianya said:


> well i was told that by cross breeding u eliminate problems


rubbish! you only eliminate problems by testing for genetic conditions something very few cross breeders do!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> Thank you for being honest
> 
> I just don't understand why anyone would go out their way to breed a cross breed dog when we have so many varieties of pure bred dogs out their to choose from . I just don't get it
> 
> ...


I could be wrong but i will give my views on this anyway, nothing wrong with a crossbreed dog itself i love all dogs so snobbery here at all, but i do feel there are a lot breeding or looking at breeding a particular breed with another breed do do wonder if 2 breeds that cant be put together and given a fancy name would be bred from it looks very much like to me a different kind of snobbery people would buy and pay over inflated prices for a cockerpoo, labradoodle, springador etc but wouldnt buy a cocker x poodle, lab x poodle, springer x lab but because they have a silly.designer name they will, would some of these people sit up and take interest in a heinz 57 or a dog advertised as a mongrel? because i dont think a lot would and i dont mean people on here who are true dog lovers but many people out there, definetly but because it sounds good.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Maistaff said:


> Thank you for being honest
> 
> I just don't understand why anyone would go out their way to breed a cross breed dog when we have so many varieties of pure bred dogs out their to choose from . I just don't get it
> 
> ...


It depends what you want to do with your dog, we have a sport bred cross breed, its his 3rd birthday today GSD Dam BC SIRE, both health tested, the litter was everything they were required to be and all went to dog sport homes, and are all doing very well in competition, the GSD brings size & strength, the BC energy, bidability, speed & stamina. i know some would argue that you could get the opposite, but with carefully chosen parents it doesn't seem to happen. The top winning dog of all time in our sport was said cross.
This is my husbands competition dog, I work a wsd, But I will always defend the right to crossbreed or indeed breed at all for a purpose.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

deb53 said:


> I feel Because a vets field is medicine????
> 
> Not many know the ins and out of breeding. Yes they know when there is a problem. The vet I used to work with used to say that in all his years he saw far more many caesers and hardly any "natural" births.
> 
> ...


I agree with you but maybe it would be a good idea for vets to get more clued up on breeding because some people take what the vet says as 100%


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Recessive genes need to find a gene to match with - and away to go, the problem exists in the cross-breed.
> 
> Introduce the same cross-breed, or another cross-breed or pedigree dog, and you have the genetic issues they suffer from, plus the existing genetic problems with your cross breed.
> 
> If a genetic condition is dominant, it doesn't need to find a matching gene - and therefore if the other breed didn't suffer from it, the cross breed easily can.


This is too simplistic a view. A lot of genetic conditions are not simple dominant/recessive genes, but a combination of several genes. Of course getting the whole combination is more likely in pedigree dogs where there has been breeding between more closely related individuals.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Not sure if it is on topic or not - read the thread but lost the plot  However, reasons why some people may look for a cross breed (well us anyway). 

I wanted an Irish Wolfhound but was told a definate no by OH so I started researching standard poodles, after years of having GSDs, for a change. After doing all the "Aw, look at this..." and "Isn't it pretty..." OH just couldn't get past the 'I'm not walking down the street with a poodle' stage. I had read the Standard Poodle Club website and noticed how against Labradoodles they were, so being nosey, I looked them up. Now I didn't find the name attractive in the slightest, but the dog itself seemed ideal for us. We met a few, and liked them, their temperement, the variety of looks etc. so decided to get one after a lot more research. 

If I meet anyone who is interested, I do emphasise that they are NOT hypo-allergenic. However, if someone hadn't crossed these 2 breeds, we wouldn't be blessed with our wonderful, loving, friendly dog.

I understand that there is a tendency to cross anything, without thought for the actual dogs, and I do not support that at all. I think the problem previously with all the cross breed threads was that people got a bit personal and made cross breed owners feel like they were only following a trend and were likely to get rid of the dog in a few weeks, or were irresponsible etc. I personally understood it was mostly against irresponsible breeders and no-one was really against the dogs themselves, but people tend to get upset when they are told their pet shouldn't exist.  IMO anyway.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> This is too simplistic a view. A lot of genetic conditions are not simple dominant/recessive genes, but a combination of several genes. Of course getting the whole combination is more likely in pedigree dogs where there has been breeding between more closely related individuals.


I didn't say all conditions, but how many cross breeders will DNA test their breeding stock where the test exist? very few.

There are some conditions which are not simply reliant on genes - Hip and Elbow Dysplacia being two of them - if they were, then it would have been erradicated from many breeding lines by now.

Those of us who breed are still learning and will continue to learn.

Interestingly, however, and I removed this from that particular post, there are those that will argue that some breeds with much smaller numbers are healthier, yet, these are the breeds with much smaller gene pools.

By line breeding, you are working with known genes - if you have DNA testing, for recessive genes at least, you can breed them out very quickly without removing any dog, affected, carrier or clear from the gene pool.

The fact remains that few hereditary conditions are unique to one breed, you find me deliberate cross breeders who will test for every condition that can effect the dogs in their breed mixes? I am sure there probably are a few, but not many - therefore you are, without doubt, storing up major timebombs for owners, owners who thing that by buying a cross-breed, they will have a healthier dog.

==========================

lets just think of a couple of examples of cross-breeds.

Poodles and Labradors - both breeds can be prone to HD and PRA - it matters not how broadly unrelated they are

GSDs and Labs - HD and ED
Staffies and Labs - HC
NSDTR and Labs -HD ad PRA
Otterhounds and Labs - HD, ED and Possible epilepsy

Then you have breeds for which conditions such as VWD is well documented, but not unheard of in other breeds

Epilepsy - well documented in some breeds, but still not unheard of in others

=========

My point being and which has been laboured many times on this thread - whether you are looking for a pedigree or a cross breed - you should ALWAYS do your homework, KNOW what conditions the breed(s) suffer from, and ensure that the breeder has taken every step possible to ensure that the offspring are as health as they possibly can be.

For puppy owners buying a pedigree, this can be confusing enough, never mind having to deal with the hereditary conditions of 2, 3 or however many known breeds may be in their puppy.

All these documented conditions have got nothing to do with being closely related - if they are in the breed and mated to another susceptible breed, the 'bad' genes for want of a better word will be there.

=======================

I noted someone commenting they had a GSD x Border Collie cross - two very attractive, highly intelligent and active breeds -and I would envisage not a cross that would suit many people -as I suspect many people simply wouldn't have the time and energy required to stimulate such an intelligent and active dog, but a cross nevertheless, I could also envisage could serve some very useful (working type) purposes.

============================

I have lived, with the exception of during the time I was being a parent, my life through dogs, working with them, owning them and now breeding, working and showing them - not to mention them all being pets.

I would NEVER look down on someone for owning whatever type of dog they do, my anger and annoyance remains with the breeders who con people into buying something which is claimed to be something it isn't.

For true dog lovers, it won't matter whether the dog moults, or doesn't, if it is ill they will care for it, and hopefully use whatever means at their disposal to make it better - my point is, if some of these so called breeders (x-breeds and pedigrees) did things responsibly, the risks in many instances of ill health would be erradicted, and where that isn't possible, at least reduced.

Everything in life is a risk - I would liken buying from untested parents to jumping out of a plane without a back up parachute - the chances are you will be lucky and land safely, but there is a higher risk that you won't.

If you buy from health tested parents, you have jumped out of the plane with that back-up parachute, you may still not land safely, but the risks are considerably higher than you will.


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

chianya said:


> sorry your not going to change what i have heard from ppl who probably know more than you and as the is research to back it up you just don't have a leg to stand on


LMAO so are you saying that for example responsibly bred health tested pure Staffies and responsibly bred health tested pure huskies have more chance of producing pups with genetic conditions than an unhealth tested cross of the two breeds!??

if so i'd love to see 'your' evidence to support this:thumbup:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

chianya said:


> sorry your not going to change what i have heard from ppl who probably know more than you and as the is research to back it up you just don't have a leg to stand on


oh dear. When you have a little more knowledge you will know to take opinions with a pinch of salt. The tv programme was very slanted as far as I understand and your vet is giving his own personal opinion, not a scientific veterinary opinion. I have seen a vet, on being asked if a labrador dog is a suitable breeding dog, just feel the testicles and pronounce it a good stud dog. Sorry, but vets have no idea whatsoever on breeding or the ins and outs of problems, it is the breeders and experienced dog owners who can give you a much more balanced view.

The section of the population who think that crossbreeds are healthier tend to be the same ones that still believe a bitch should have a litter before being spayed, a dog that howls has gone mad and various other old wives tales. And sadly nothing will budge them from this stance.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> I would rescue a cross breed perhaps but buy one ... erm think no. would never fund or advocate BYB
> 
> edited to add ... these cross breeds do these pet owners health check eg genetic health check? they may be cross breeds but they can still inherit the same issues !!


Many BYB breed predigree dogs If you think otherwise your very nieve. Go and take a look at Many tears who many Pedigree dogs are on there that are ex breeders who are no longer "need"

And guess what not all pedigree breeds health test either so thats a poor argument imo

Its about breeding without care of any dog pedigree or not.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Daynna said:


> Many BYB breed predigree dogs If you think otherwise your very nieve. Go and take a look at Many tears who many Pedigree dogs are on there that are ex breeders who are no longer "need"
> 
> And guess what not all pedigree breeds health test either so thats a poor argument imo
> 
> Its about breeding without care of any dog pedigree or not.


You clearly haven't read the whole thread.

It has been acknowledged that not all pedigree breeders health test, it has been acknowledged that not all breeders who health test are responsible.

It has been acknowledged that a small proportion of cross-breeders DO health test.

As for Many Tears - the large majority of their dogs are from Puppy Farms - not just breeders or BYB - a lot of BYB breeders in Wales actually end up selling their dogs to dealers in England, who sell them on under the guise of having bred them themselves, usually for a large profit.

=======

In summary, it has been acknowledged, even by people like me who don't approve of deliberate cross breeding that health tests (and temperament which I have seen mentioned very little) are top of tree combined with breeders that clearly do care.

I live not far from MT - and I live in the heart of Puppy Farming country, so I am all too aware of the issues.

People don't do their research - and quite often local people who ring me say, oh, but I can get a pup down the road, KC registered for half the price - it matters not to them the bitch may have been bred back to back for the last 5 or 6 seasons, and they've used their own, or a mates dog rather than the best dog for the bitch - or the fact that neither parents, and often grandparents have been health tested 

The pups of mine who go locally are usually those who have had first or second hand knowledge of dogs from BYB and / or PF and realise that a bargain basement pup seldom ends up being cheap (my friends bargain basement pup has cost over £15K so far in surgery  )


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Can i just say i stopped reading the thread at page 7 as it has all been said before and i closed my own thread about crossbreeds as people got very abusive and rude and really upset me!

Why is it that you all complain about crossbreed dogs?? This is a PET FORUM NOT A PEDIGREE FORUM!!! I have never yet found a thread slagging off crossbred rabbits, guinea pigs or cats so why on earth do you all have such a hatred for crossbred dogs???

It makes me so sad to think that all of you who have commented negatively would ''dislike'' meeting 2 out of my 3 dogs as you dislike crossbreeds!!

Ask yourselves honestly....... SHOULD YOU BE PART OF A ''PET'' FORUM?????


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

Matrix/Logan said:


> Can i just say i stopped reading the thread at page 7 as it has all been said before and i closed my own thread about crossbreeds as people got very abusive and rude and really upset me!
> 
> Why is it that you all complain about crossbreed dogs?? This is a PET FORUM NOT A PEDIGREE FORUM!!! I have never yet found a thread slagging off crossbred rabbits, guinea pigs or cats so why on earth do you all have such a hatred for crossbred dogs???
> 
> ...


im not a breeder of anything and ive only Ever owned Cross breeds!!:thumbup: but im absolutley fed up of people sticking 2 breeds together with no thought behind the mix and with no health tests whatsoever, and im just as fed up about all the irresponsible breeding of pedigrees aswell!!!!

the point is ethical breeders of crosses are few and far between, its far far easier to find a well bred pedigree puppy from fully health tested parents, most breeders of crosses breed only to make money out of their dogs!


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

I think we can all agree on that we love ALL dogs it's just the byb and responsible breeders we have a problem with.

I have one of both a pedigree English springer spaniel and a crossbreed very scruffy lurcher:lol: who I love both the same.

My springer come from a farm in Wales with full health tests done (witch is rare for farm dogs) she is my soul mate she's 7 years old now and my perfect dog! My Lurcher come from the town where I live no health tests done she's 8 month old am I grateful she was born and I have her...yes of course I am but would I have preferred her to have all the necessary health tests done yes.

Can I ask a question?
What about people that want a cross breed dog but dose not want to get a rescue? as rescues are not for everyone what are they supposed to do?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I think people have to remember that no one is slagging the dogs as such, everyone on here loves dogs and cares about them or else they wouldn't be posting on this thread. We had a heinz 57 Radar who was a pretty big dog and was a total softie - he had severe hip displaysia, but he lived till he was 14. Crossbreeding does not eliminate problems and you really shouldnt listen to everything a vet says. It's very irresponsible to breed two different breeds of dogs, no health checks ect on the whim that 'people say' they'll be healthy. Just the same as it's very irresponsible to breed two unhealth checked pedigrees. The problem with crossbreeds is you can get the best of both breeds or the absolute worst and i fail to see why people take the chance. Of course if the person crossbreeding has completely researched the lines, good health test results, fantastic tempremant and conformation regarding both parents then why not? Personally i feel only the best of the best dogs, be it pedigree or cross shoul be bred from. As for saying you want a dog that looks different, i've never really seen a crossbreed that i've thought looked amazingly different from every other dog. But that's a matter of personal opinion. I always meet people who say their crossbreed ( or pedigree) is fantastic but the dog is only 1 or 2 and hasn't reached full maturity yet when a lot of dogs temprements alter slightly or extremely in some way. Maybe it's just because of the show environment i'm involved in but i know a lot of fantastic breeders with outstanding pedigree dogs and just think why would anyone wanr to cross a dog like that? Give me a good reason and believe me i'll pat you on the back, give me i want to see what it looks like, or to get blue eyes, or because im not a snob and dont want a pedigree and you'll just fuel peoples negative opinions on crossbreeds. But i do think people have to remember that no one is personally attacking anyone. xx


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

nicola1980 said:


> Can I ask a question?
> What about people that want a cross breed dog but dose not want to get a rescue? as rescues are not for everyone what are they supposed to do?


i have worked in rescues got all my wonderful crosses from there and i cannot believe with all the thousands of dogs of all ages and descriptions that are stuck in shelters that there isnt a dog for everyone in a rescue somewhere desperate for another chance, but if people wont make the effort to find the right rescue for them then they should only buy a cross from a responsible breeder who has had both parents fully health tested for genetic conditions the mix may be carrying! and who's puppies are micro chipped and come on a contract saying they will take them back at any stage in their lives should the need arise, puppies from such breeders are far less likely to add to this dire rescue crisis! if people keep supporting irresponsible breeders this crisis will only get worse!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Shamen said:


> i have worked in rescues got all my wonderful crosses from there and i cannot believe with all the thousands of dogs of all ages and descriptions that are stuck in shelters that there isnt a dog for everyone in a rescue somewhere desperate for another chance, but if people wont make the effort to find the right rescue for them then they should only buy a cross from a responsible breeder who has had both parents fully health tested for genetic conditions the mix may be carrying! and who's puppies are micro chipped and come on a contract saying they will take them back at any stage in their lives should the need arise, puppies from such breeders are far less likely to add to this dire rescue crisis! if people keep supporting irresponsible breeders this crisis will only get worse!


OH believe me I have tried!!!!!!! There are an awful lot of rescues that are incredibly bigotted in their outlook - I can't rescue 'cos hubby is in the forces - not found a single rescue yet that can cope with that! Big public or small independant and I've looked hard. I even got turned down when hubby was only a boyfriend -- no ring, no commitment but obviously should I have married him I would have turned into an animal abuser - the rescue (RSPCA) was all ready to let me have a pup until they saw the boyfriend turn up in uniform and then promptly refused me on the spot - then I also live in rented accomodation (provided by the MOD) so that's a no go, I have had young children, move a lot, have worked, etc it is farcical to hear some of the stupid reasons as to why I can't rescue but I've heard them all!


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

spid said:


> OH believe me I have tried!!!!!!! There are an awful lot of rescues that are incredibly bigotted in their outlook - I can't rescue 'cos hubby is in the forces - not found a single rescue yet that can cope with that! Big public or small independant and I've looked hard. I even got turned down when hubby was only a boyfriend -- no ring, no commitment but obviously should I have married him I would have turned into an animal abuser - the rescue (RSPCA) was all ready to let me have a pup until they saw the boyfriend turn up in uniform and then promptly refused me on the spot - then I also live in rented accomodation (provided by the MOD) so that's a no go, I have had young children, move a lot, have worked, etc it is farcical to hear some of the stupid reasons as to why I can't rescue but I've heard them all!


you should try independantly run rescues and shelters because there a loads that dont have that policy, the main requirement for most of these is to have a securely fenced garden and that the dog wont be left alone for long periods, they would only ask you to inform them when you move so they can update their information.


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

Shamen said:


> i have worked in rescues got all my wonderful crosses from there and i cannot believe with all the thousands of dogs of all ages and descriptions that are stuck in shelters that there isnt a dog for everyone in a rescue somewhere desperate for another chance, but if people wont make the effort to find the right rescue for them then they should only buy a cross from a responsible breeder who has had both parents fully health tested for genetic conditions the mix may be carrying! and who's puppies are micro chipped and come on a contract saying they will take them back at any stage in their lives should the need arise, puppies from such breeders are far less likely to add to this dire rescue crisis! if people keep supporting irresponsible breeders this crisis will only get worse!


I have also worked in rescues for years and years but I think saying that people wont make an effort to find a right rescue is patronising, lots of people are turned down by the RESCUE for some reason or another (sometimes very silly reasons) so then the only option to them is to go to a breeder.

What really gets my goat up is some of the silly names people give to the cross breeds, what is wrong with just having a cross-mutt-mongrel? that's what I have and she's fab!
Meany times we have been out and people ask what dog I have and when I say a mutt their reply is"yes but what is she crossed with" my answer.....lots of scruffy dogs rolled into one lol!


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

nicola1980 said:


> I have also worked in rescues for years and years but I think saying that people wont make an effort to find a right rescue is patronising, lots of people are turned down by the RESCUE for some reason or another (sometimes very silly reasons) so then the only option to them is to go to a breeder.
> 
> What really gets my goat up is some of the silly names people give to the cross breeds, what is wrong with just having a cross-mutt-mongrel? that's what I have and she's fab!
> Meany times we have been out and people ask what dog I have and when I say a mutt their reply is"yes but what is she crossed with" my answer.....lots of scruffy dogs rolled into one lol!


think what you like thats the way i see it, if people tried harder sought out other rescues so long as they meet the requirements ive already mentioned then in most cases they would be allowed to rehome.

what gets my goat is people who do no health tests and wash their hands of all responsibility for the puppies theyve produced once theyve been sold!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Matrix/Logan said:


> Can i just say i stopped reading the thread at page 7 as it has all been said before and i closed my own thread about crossbreeds as people got very abusive and rude and really upset me!
> 
> Why is it that you all complain about crossbreed dogs?? This is a PET FORUM NOT A PEDIGREE FORUM!!! I have never yet found a thread slagging off crossbred rabbits, guinea pigs or cats so why on earth do you all have such a hatred for crossbred dogs???
> 
> ...


Why do people take things so personally? to me, that says they are questioning themselves.

NOT ONE of us here has particularly knocked cross-breeds - they may have made comments about certain types of cross breeds - like I commented on the Border Collie / GSD cross - I bet it is a super dog, but I would also believe it would take a VERY special type of owner to have one, because it's quite likely to be one of the most intelligent active dogs on the planet, as independently, both breeds take some beating - GSDs were my original breed.

Some of the most naturally attractive dogs I've seen have been lurchers, with super temperaments - there are lots of Heinz 57's out there who are irresistable.

I've met totally non-descript (looks wise) crosses who have made super hearing dogs.

Not one of these dogs is any less or more special whether it has papers, KC registration etc providing it is loved unconditionally by it's owner.

So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get any daft ideas out of your head that people are undermining them.

I too show my dogs, and am now dipping my toe in the water with working them - presently, they are all hogging our sofas fast asleep and I love them all more than life itself - including the ones I don't show / breed.

The point is, when I and most other show / working breeders produce a litter, it is with the view to bringing on their next generation, an improvement on their last in every manner.

I spend a huge amount of money, time and energy when I want to mate one of my bitches - I quite likely drive my friends bonkers until I find the right dog - which is quite often at the other end of the country.

I don't do it for the experience of breeding, I do it to improve my lines and just maybe give something back to the wider breed.

I don't lie when puppy owners contact me, I tell them what health problems there are in the breed, I tell them what tests I've done, and what conditions I am able to guarantee their pups will be free from as a result of DNA testing, and which I've done my best to prevent, but cannot guarantee it.

I endorse their paperwork, with a clear signed contract of what will be required for me to lift those restrictions.

Maybe I am naive - but what purpose does someone achieve by deliberately cross-breeding two dogs? how can they develop that line? where can they take it? how can they improve it?

How can they have any control over ensuring the offspring are health tested if they are going to bred from?

I know people will argue that someone could breed unregistered pups anyway - and yes they could - but I would like to think, having done their homework, waited, often over a year for a pup, travelled many hundred miles to view and then to collect, that they would have a little more sense having bought responsibly in the first instance.

=================

Contrary to what some people can't seem to recognise on this thread, we are not blind to the faults within our breeds, or from pedigree breeders - we would like to think that the puppy buyers will honour our requirements in terms of breeding and rehoming, we can't force them.

ALL of this is recognised.

Any cross breed is likely to turn out unpredictably in terms of it's size, appearance and nature - although I do occasionally see some who are the spit of one of their parents and do look and act like them, but they are the exception to the rule.

It's not snobbery or elitism - it's about trying to do the best for the new lives being brought into this world - and while there are good and bad on both sides, this 'best' does happen less in the world of cross-breeding


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

I own a chihuahua cross jack and she is fab, love her to bits. I love any dog, at the end of the day they are all little lives that need love and care. x


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

swarthy said:


> You clearly haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> It has been acknowledged that not all pedigree breeders health test, it has been acknowledged that not all breeders who health test are responsible.
> 
> ...


Yes i have although after writing that, and as far as i can tell the poster i quoted hasnt posted much after writing that at all, so my answer is and was relevent to him (and still is) hence why i quoted him and no one else 

I know a rehomer for many tears, I do know a little of what goes on although he doesnt like to talk much about the kind of people who hand over the x-breeders as he gets to angry. Hes got about 8 cav's from many tears some x-breeders or failed breeders and some with heart conditions.


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

Shamen said:


> think what you like thats the way i see it, if people tried harder sought out other rescues so long as they meet the requirements ive already mentioned then in most cases they would be allowed to rehome.


That's my point MOST cases would be allowed to rehome but what about the ones who don't meet the requirements

But anyway not getting into this anymore I have my opinion and you have yours and this is going off topic.


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

AHHHH, people are so argumentative on this subject!! Why can't people respect eachothers opinions and be done with it!! Some people are for and some people are against just like everything else in the world.....


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

I think it's a shame breeders are deliberately crossing pedigrees because ultimately it lead to the disapearance of some breeds. Originally many breeds were bred for a purpose instead of fashion accessories in which we see today. 
If someone wants a cross breed I think it would be better if they would take on many of the dogs which are in need of rescuing today. The problem with these deliberate crosses is they contribute to the already growing problem of animals dumped on the animal welfare organisations.

Personally I much prefer a dog which has been bred for a purpose such as gun dogs. It helps to preserve the breed.


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

Maistaff said:


> good luck to you - i am sure your bank balance will reap the rewards :thumbup:


my dogs are bred for certain people they do not get charged so please think before you speak


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

keeleyjane19 said:


> AHHHH, people are so argumentative on this subject!! Why can't people respect eachothers opinions and be done with it!! Some people are for and some people are against just like everything else in the world.....


Good post:thumbup:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

borderer said:


> my dogs are bred for certain people they do not get charged so please think before you speak


I agree not everyone who breeds is after £


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

nicola1980 said:


> Good post:thumbup:


Thank you!!

It just annoys me that people criticise other peoples opinions but hate being critised back...its a vicous circle...why reply to a thread if you don't want your opinion to be slated...

People should just acknowledge others opinions and respect that not everyone have the same views...

There are far worse things in the world to worry about then others opinions...

Not everyone are the same, everyone thinks differently, some people like, some people dislike....its the way of living....it would be boring if everyone thought the same!!

I wish people would just get over it and appreciate they are not the only god damn soul on this earth and everyone thinks like them!!

ENOUGH SAID!!


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

Shamen said:


> i have worked in rescues got all my wonderful crosses from there and i cannot believe with all the thousands of dogs of all ages and descriptions that are stuck in shelters that there isnt a dog for everyone in a rescue somewhere desperate for another chance, but if people wont make the effort to find the right rescue for them COLOR] then they should only buy a cross from a responsible breeder who has had both parents fully health tested for genetic conditions the mix may be carrying! and who's puppies are micro chipped and come on a contract saying they will take them back at any stage in their lives should the need arise, puppies from such breeders are far less likely to add to this dire rescue crisis! if people keep supporting irresponsible breeders this crisis will only get worse!





nicola1980 said:


> That's my point MOST cases would be allowed to rehome but what about the ones who don't meet the requirements
> 
> But anyway not getting into this anymore I have my opinion and you have yours and this is going off topic.


i think you must have missed my alternative!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think this thread has run very well people have posted their opinions but havnt gone too far this time, i take back my very first post on here.:thumbup:


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

keeleyjane19 said:


> Thank you!!
> 
> It just annoys me that people criticise other peoples opinions but hate being critised back...its a vicous circle...why reply to a thread if you don't want your opinion to be slated...
> 
> ...


if we all had same opinon what would we talk about


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

keeleyjane19 said:


> AHHHH, people are so argumentative on this subject!! Why can't people respect eachothers opinions and be done with it!! Some people are for and some people are against just like everything else in the world.....


because some people are extremely concerned at the amount of people deliberately breeding anything with anything! and they are absolutely sickened at the amount of lovely healthy dogs pts daily!


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

Shamen said:


> i think you must have missed my alternative!


No need to hightlight your quote I seen it just don't agree with it but thanks anyway


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

Thats why I said:

"Not everyone are the same, everyone thinks differently, some people like, some people dislike....its the way of living....it would be boring if everyone thought the same!!"

I'm not slating the fact that people like to talk and discuss, good on them, but its when they are harsh about peoples opinions then get all irrate and on their high horses...

Civil conversations do just nicely...


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> *I think it's a shame breeders are deliberately crossing pedigrees because ultimately it lead to the disapearance of some breeds.* Originally many breeds were bred for a purpose instead of fashion accessories in which we see today.
> If someone wants a cross breed I think it would be better if they would take on many of the dogs which are in need of rescuing today. The problem with these deliberate crosses is they contribute to the already growing problem of animals dumped on the animal welfare organisations.
> 
> Personally I much prefer a dog which has been bred for a purpose such as gun dogs. It helps to preserve the breed.


I believe someone on here a little while ago said that her breed would have disappeared altogether if there hadn't been a deliberate crossing of other breeds (crossbreeding) into the breed as the gene pool was so small it was in danger....


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Is everyone still having fun? :thumbup:


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Is everyone still having fun? :thumbup:


LMAO!! hmm..no comment!! xx


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

nicola1980 said:


> No need to hightlight your quote I seen it just don't agree with it but thanks anyway


no probs i just thought you were directing this at me when you said "what about the ones who dont meet the requirements".... i never expected you would agree though.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't think the issue is a case of pedigree versus mutt but rather a case of good breeders versus bad breeders.

There are plenty of bad breeders of pedigree dogs, who don't bother to health test, breed from dogs with poor temperaments, etc. They range from the puppy farmers churning out hundreds of badly bred pedigree pups in appaling conditions, to the owner who thinks "well I have a lab, my friend has a lab - hey lets make some cute puppies!"

Equally, there are some breeders of crossbreeds who can be classed as good breeders. For example, some of the "labradoodle" breeders are very hot on health testing for the conditions present in both breeds. 

Or look at the people outcrossing pedigree dogs for health reasons. When the LUA dalmatians were first created, the first litters were just dallie - pointer crosses, but the result now is perfectly good dalmatians that may be lucky enough to have normal levels of uric acid. Or the original breeder of Victorian bulldogs, who being disheartened with the tragic state of the bulldog outcrossed to a couple of other breeds to create a bulldog that could breathe, run, mate and whelp without veterinary intervention. I say well done to them!

As far as the rescue problem goes - again, I think there are various factors to consider here. One is the mass breeding which goes on in both pedigrees and mutts. Another is "impulse buying" eg of pups in pet shops or online - again a problem for both pedigrees and mutts. And of course the irresponsible owners who dump their dogs as soon as they get a new couch. There are plenty of pedigree dogs in rescue - I mean if breeding crosses is bad, can we justify breeding staffies, collies, rotties etc when there are so many of these needing homes?

With crosses one thing I do object to is the spin - if you breed a litter of CKCS x poodles, then sell them as what they are. Don't give them a stupid made up name, claim they are a rare designer breed and charge a small fortune for them! Or equally make claims like they will all be hypoallergenic, etc.

Personally, I would like to see:

1) Mandatory health testing for ALL dogs. For pedigrees this is straightforward. For straight crosses I believe they should be tested for the conditions present in both breeds. With a little research into mongrels we could at least come up with something like average hip scores according to size.

2) A restriction on the quantity of dogs produced. (currently you need a licence for breeding a certain number of litters - I would bring in a maximum number as well, say 10 litters per year). This should eradicate the most intensive puppy farms at least.

3) Codes of practice like those that exist for farm and lab animals, to ensure dogs are kept and bred in decent conditions. Again, this would knock out some of the puppy farms and byb's.

4) A complete ban on the sale of dogs in pet shops. This would have a twofold effect - it would make life more difiicult for the puppy farmers and it would reduce the impulse buying.


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

I'm bored now...so i'm out...TOO MANY OPINIONS!!! Hehe


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Why do people take things so personally? to me, that says they are questioning themselves.
> 
> NOT ONE of us here has particularly knocked cross-breeds - they may have made comments about certain types of cross breeds - like I commented on the Border Collie / GSD cross - I bet it is a super dog, but I would also believe it would take a VERY special type of owner to have one, because it's quite likely to be one of the most intelligent active dogs on the planet, as independently, both breeds take some beating - GSDs were my original breed.
> 
> ...


If you had spent several years on this forum you would have seen some of the comments people have made..

I also do not think Matrix/logan is taking this personally.. But has seen what happens on these threads.. there are some very narrow minded people about and think they know everything.. this is not the case.. but still they can get very abusive and it may go on sometime before a mod spots it..

I have two lovely dogs Weimeraners.. i bred a litter a couple of years ago kept one the stud had another and the rest were all found loving homes.. And everyone who had a dog of me knows I am there for them if they need me..
I have also had x's from rescues.. When I was younger we went for a dog and were turned down when the rescue realised we had horses.. (think they thought we would keep it locked in a stable) lol

There has been people on here who believe if you can't afford £500.00 plus for a dog then you are not worthy of keeping one... 
Shocking is all I can say...


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> If you had spent several years on this forum you would have seen some of the comments people have made..
> 
> I also do not think Matrix/logan is taking this personally.. But has seen what happens on these threads.. there are some very narrow minded people about and think they know everything.. this is not the case.. but still they can get very abusive and it may go on sometime before a mod spots it..
> 
> ...


I do have to agree with this, it's very sad :nonod:


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> Please i am not thick ..
> 
> My point is through out this thread whay do peole insist on activly seeking cross breeds that should have never been bred in the first place. ?? Why do people go out their way to bred to unsuitable dog breeds?
> 
> ...


I agree with your point of view. Sadly, it won't stop the practice, but I agree with you.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> oh dear. When you have a little more knowledge you will know to take opinions with a pinch of salt. The tv programme was very slanted as far as I understand and your vet is giving his own personal opinion, not a scientific veterinary opinion. I have seen a vet, on being asked if a labrador dog is a suitable breeding dog, just feel the testicles and pronounce it a good stud dog. Sorry, but vets have no idea whatsoever on breeding or the ins and outs of problems, it is the breeders and experienced dog owners who can give you a much more balanced view.
> 
> The section of the population who think that crossbreeds are healthier tend to be the same ones that still believe a bitch should have a litter before being spayed, a dog that howls has gone mad and various other old wives tales. And sadly nothing will budge them from this stance.


Excellent post  Thats what I was trying to say...you worded it better:thumbup:



Matrix/Logan said:


> Can i just say i stopped reading the thread at page 7 as it has all been said before and i closed my own thread about crossbreeds as people got very abusive and rude and really upset me!
> 
> Why is it that you all complain about crossbreed dogs?? This is a PET FORUM NOT A PEDIGREE FORUM!!! I have never yet found a thread slagging off crossbred rabbits, guinea pigs or cats so why on earth do you all have such a hatred for crossbred dogs???
> 
> ...


No-one had shown any "hatred" for crossbreeds or got rude and aggressive. I would not have used my dog as an example about health testing parents of X breeds. Think maybe you need to read back and understand that this was a healthy debate on health testing X breeds and about "old wives tales".
And yes I do beleive I SHOULD be a member even though I do have opinions !!



Shamen said:


> im not a breeder of anything and ive only Ever owned Cross breeds!!:thumbup: but im absolutley fed up of people sticking 2 breeds together with no thought behind the mix and with no health tests whatsoever, and im just as fed up about all the irresponsible breeding of pedigrees aswell!!!!
> 
> the point is ethical breeders of crosses are few and far between, its far far easier to find a well bred pedigree puppy from fully health tested parents, most breeders of crosses breed only to make money out of their dogs!


Good post



swarthy said:


> Why do people take things so personally? to me, that says they are questioning themselves.
> 
> NOT ONE of us here has particularly knocked cross-breeds - they may have made comments about certain types of cross breeds - like I commented on the Border Collie / GSD cross - I bet it is a super dog, but I would also believe it would take a VERY special type of owner to have one, because it's quite likely to be one of the most intelligent active dogs on the planet, as independently, both breeds take some beating - GSDs were my original breed.
> 
> ...


Exactly :thumbup:



keeleyjane19 said:


> Thank you!!
> 
> It just annoys me that people criticise other peoples opinions but hate being critised back...its a vicous circle...why reply to a thread if you don't want your opinion to be slated...
> 
> ...


This confuses me But you have commented here and later on and keep saying about peoples views on the topic and how frustrated you are about everyones views but not once have said your views on healthtesting so why the annoyance and the advise on not posting??



Colette said:


> I don't think the issue is a case of pedigree versus mutt but rather a case of good breeders versus bad breeders.
> 
> There are plenty of bad breeders of pedigree dogs, who don't bother to health test, breed from dogs with poor temperaments, etc. They range from the puppy farmers churning out hundreds of badly bred pedigree pups in appaling conditions, to the owner who thinks "well I have a lab, my friend has a lab - hey lets make some cute puppies!"
> 
> ...


Good post x


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

I have a Labmaraner (labrador x weimaraner) from an accidental litter, I wouldn't change her for the world, she is the perfect breed of dog.
Although Ive always said and still say 'If i were to ever get another dog, it would be a proper golden retriever.' Simply because i know where i stand with the temperments of golden retrievers.

Crossing can be a good thing, like my girl for instance. People may struggle with a pure bred weimaraner as they are so energetic and very decieving, having one bred with a labrador can completely alter the way she naturally behaves.
My girl has all the love a weimaraner loves to give, the companionship and the build. Yet she has the temperment of a labrador, also the height and size of one too.

There is a line to cross breeding though in my eyes, very very irresponsible cross breeding. Like breeding a labrador for example with a jackrussel. It sounds stupid, but it happens. :scared:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> I have a Labmaraner (labrador x weimaraner) from an accidental litter, I wouldn't change her for the world, she is the perfect breed of dog.
> Although Ive always said and still say 'If i were to ever get another dog, it would be a proper golden retriever.' Simply because i know where i stand with the temperments of golden retrievers.
> 
> Crossing can be a good thing, like my girl for instance. People may struggle with a pure bred weimaraner as they are so energetic and very decieving, having one bred with a labrador can completely alter the way she naturally behaves.
> ...


I have weimy's and they zip around like any other dog.. and in the house spend the majority of the time sleeping. No more energetic than a lab or a goldie, and what do you mean decieving??


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

I am shocked that this thread hasnt been closed and deleted!! This is against rules and needs to be taken off!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, but vets have no idea whatsoever on breeding or the ins and outs of problems, it is the breeders and experienced dog owners who can give you a much more balanced view.
> 
> The section of the population who think that crossbreeds are healthier tend to be the same ones that still believe a bitch should have a litter before being spayed, a dog that howls has gone mad and various other old wives tales. And sadly nothing will budge them from this stance.


Rather sweeping generalisations with no evidence. Go on, prove it!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I cant see any reason why it should i think the thread has gone well, they are usually deleted in no time at all as they have in the past become very personal and gone to be a real slanging match, this one had been very different to previos ones.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

................ok


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Maybe its time this rule gets removed, or else its unfair that some may break it with no consequences while it threatens with infractions and a ban and others may have been given infractions in the past.

Its great to see people being able to debate certain subjects and people shouldnt fear to start a thread due to a rule which is not taken seriously anyway  

:thumbup:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, but vets have no idea whatsoever on breeding or the ins and outs of problems, it is the breeders and experienced dog owners who can give you a much more balanced view.
> 
> The section of the population who think that crossbreeds are healthier tend to be the same ones that still believe a bitch should have a litter before being spayed, a dog that howls has gone mad and various other old wives tales. And sadly nothing will budge them from this stance.


MM I really think you are very wrong about vets.. i know many vets who have a very healthy interest in breeding.. Who know a great deal.. They didn't train for years to be dumbo's.

And then to call people for breeding x breeds.. And saying the rest of your statement.
Now Im neither for or against.. Its not really my buisness if one of my neighbours or who ever wants to x dogs.. But let me tell you this! How the hell do you think most of your dogs came from... I'll tell you, from people who experimented! And eventually produced the dog they were after..... 
Plummer terriers are a new breed, bred for a specific job.... But 15 years ago they weren't around...


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

swarthy said:


> ..... like I commented on the Border Collie / GSD cross - I bet it is a super dog, but I would also believe it would take a VERY special type of owner to have one, because it's quite likely to be one of the most intelligent active dogs on the planet, as independently, both breeds take some beating - GSDs were my original breed.
> 
> (


I know 3 GSD/BC crosses, all of them have nervous agression tendencies which seems to be a combination of the guarding side of the GSD with the neurotic side of the BC. One of them is also rather thick, the other 2 not any more intelligent than either parent breed. All were rescues though, so if got from a pup they might be OK. One has bad HD, made worse by losing half a back paw in a road accident, another has moderate HD. I wouldn't want one.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> MM I really think you are very wrong about vets.. i know many vets who have a very healthy interest in breeding.. Who know a great deal.. They didn't train for years to be dumbo's.
> 
> And then to call people for breeding x breeds.. And saying the rest of your statement.
> Now Im neither for or against.. Its not really my buisness if one of my neighbours or who ever wants to x dogs.. But let me tell you this! How the hell do you think most of your dogs came from... I'll tell you, from people who experimented! And eventually produced the dog they were after.....
> Plummer terriers are a new breed, bred for a specific job.... But 15 years ago they weren't around...


Fantastic post


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

People are taking this way to personsally i think. No one on here is bashing certain dogs - just the breeding practices , it works the exact same with pedigree dogs. It will always be a touchy subject and people's opinions will always differ. Just because i don't agree with the deliberate crossing of dogs doesn't mean i wouldnt coo over them and give them cuddles - i can barely walk by any kind of dog without getting twitchy hands lol . What i don't understand is why people aren't allowed to talk about certain crossbreeds but everyone can happily bash the show type german shepherds when they clearly know nothing about them . Or any other kind of pedigree or the dog show world in general. It works both ways. I don't go all off on the defensive or get the petted lip out when people blame the show ring for the wrongs of the dog world, nor do i get p*ssed off when people 'debate' the health of pedigree dogs they clearly know nothing about other than watching some bs programme on television or a quick google search. There are probably way too many self proclaimed experts on here but i'd rather listen to them than people who say 'ahhh well they'll be born anyway nothing we can do about it'. I mean wow what a way to give up on dogs. I think instead of taking everything so personally people should grow a back bone and state their opinion calmy and collectively, and if it doesn't suit you don't need to read the thread do you  x


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> People are taking this way to personsally i think. No one on here is bashing certain dogs - just the breeding practices , it works the exact same with pedigree dogs. It will always be a touchy subject and people's opinions will always differ. Just because i don't agree with the deliberate crossing of dogs doesn't mean i wouldnt coo over them and give them cuddles - i can barely walk by any kind of dog without getting twitchy hands lol . What i don't understand is why people aren't allowed to talk about certain crossbreeds but everyone can happily bash the show type german shepherds when they clearly know nothing about them . Or any other kind of pedigree or the dog show world in general. It works both ways. I don't go all off on the defensive or get the petted lip out when people blame the show ring for the wrongs of the dog world, nor do i get p*ssed off when people 'debate' the health of pedigree dogs they clearly know nothing about other than watching some bs programme on television or a quick google search. There are probably way too many self proclaimed experts on here but i'd rather listen to them than people who say 'ahhh well they'll be born anyway nothing we can do about it'. I mean wow what a way to give up on dogs. I think instead of taking everything so personally people should grow a back bone and state their opinion calmy and collectively, and if it doesn't suit you don't need to read the thread do you  x


I think you will find people have a great lack of respect on here for others thoughts and come across quite rude... And this happens on all the x breed threads.. as I have said I think there are some very narrow minded people on here..


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I think you will find people have a great lack of respect on here for others thoughts and come across quite rude... And this happens on all the x breed threads.. as I have said I think there are some very narrow minded people on here..


I completely understand that but could you point them out in this thread please? I genuinely might have missed them but i couldn't see any posts which were rude or disrespectful - more so just people voicing their opinions x


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I have weimy's and they zip around like any other dog.. and in the house spend the majority of the time sleeping. No more energetic than a lab or a goldie, and what do you mean decieving??


Oh my, didn't mean decieving, slip of the tongue. I meant defying. They will push your patience and try and try again to get what they want until they get it 
My girl loves to wind up my dad, my dad wants to be boss and she will push his patience so much that my mum and i find it really really funny, she plays on it too. I'm always told its to be expected in weimaraners, but its seriously what i love about her makes her a right old character :lol:


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> MM I really think you are very wrong about vets.. i know many vets who have a very healthy interest in breeding.. Who know a great deal.. They didn't train for years to be dumbo's.
> 
> And then to call people for breeding x breeds.. And saying the rest of your statement.
> Now Im neither for or against.. Its not really my buisness if one of my neighbours or who ever wants to x dogs.. But let me tell you this! How the hell do you think most of your dogs came from... I'll tell you, from people who experimented! And eventually produced the dog they were after.....
> Plummer terriers are a new breed, bred for a specific job.... But 15 years ago they weren't around...


Of course they are not Dumbos'?? Far from it. Experts in their own field BUT when it comes to knowing all 250+ recognised breeds plus the rare not yet recognised breeds and all health tests required by the kennel club or breed societies then they do not. Of course there will be some that do but to take say a Lhasapup and a Shih pup in they do not know the differnce. Or if you turned up with a portuguese Water dog pup most vets would have to ask the owner what it is.....so they know the health tests required??? No dont think so without looking it up.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> Oh my, didn't mean decieving, slip of the tongue. I meant defying. They will push your patience and try and try again to get what they want until they get it
> My girl loves to wind up my dad, my dad wants to be boss and she will push his patience so much that my mum and i find it really really funny, she plays on it too. I'm always told its to be expected in weimaraners, but its seriously what i love about her makes her a right old character :lol:


My weimy's aren't like that.. they are very loyal loving girls.. Who are very good at protecting our property. If I say kitchen they are straight in there no gyp. If im on a walk and a cyclist comes by I say over here point and they go to where my hand is.. I can honestly say I haven't had any issues with them....


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> I know 3 GSD/BC crosses, all of them have nervous agression tendencies which seems to be a combination of the guarding side of the GSD with the neurotic side of the BC. One of them is also rather thick, the other 2 not any more intelligent than either parent breed. All were rescues though, so if got from a pup they might be OK. One has bad HD, made worse by losing half a back paw in a road accident, another has moderate HD. I wouldn't want one.


Interesting - thank you.

I am quite open in my opinion that I don't approve of deliberate cross breeding (but if it is going to be done, then it should be done as pedigree breeding should be - wholly responsibly)

My observations on the cross were from my knowledge of the two breeds - my misperception of how I would envisage them to have turned out do actually, in truth form the basis for why perceptions about deliberate cross-breeding are seldom right.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I completely understand that but could you point them out in this thread please? I genuinely might have missed them but i couldn't see any posts which were rude or disrespectful - more so just people voicing their opinions x


Agreed...thought this thread was going well. Cannot see or read any posts that have been rude or disrespectful to human or dog


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jadiee-x said:


> Oh my, didn't mean decieving, slip of the tongue. I meant defying. They will push your patience and try and try again to get what they want until they get it


I know nothing about Weimaraners as a breed - but that is a Lab through and through - stubborn, strong willed with selective deafness, loyal to the end - but will try your patience because they can.

Some people have this weird misperception that Labradors come fully trained, when Labrador puppies can try the patience of a saint - they resemble a crocodile with smaller, sharper teeth - and in terms of what they end up like, you get out what you put in.

and yes, I've got six of the little darlings, including three generations of my own breeding.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

deb53 said:


> Of course they are not Dumbos'?? Far from it. Experts in their own field BUT when it comes to knowing all 250+ recognised breeds plus the rare not yet recognised breeds and all health tests required by the kennel club or breed societies then they do not. Of course there will be some that do but to take say a Lhasapup and a Shih pup in they do not know the differnce. Or if you turned up with a portuguese Water dog pup most vets would have to ask the owner what it is.....so they know the health tests required??? No dont think so without looking it up.


Ll depends on the vet and there interests.. we have vets round here who are experts on some dogs.. And will no the relevant health tests for the breeds they are interested in.. As the same with anything.. We all have something we have a great interest in and will thrive to know all we can about this interest..
My gripe was with the way the poster said it generalising thats vets new FA!

And re people being disrespectful to others..

We are all sat on our PC.. No one can see the facial expression of another person who is posting. Facial expressions go a long way in a debate conversation, some of the posts do get quite picky at each other.. And no I do not have to point them out!


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> My weimy's aren't like that.. they are very loyal loving girls.. Who are very good at protecting our property. If I say kitchen they are straight in there no gyp. If im on a walk and a cyclist comes by I say over here point and they go to where my hand is.. I can honestly say I haven't had any issues with them....


Wow you must have them well trained :thumbup:
Meg is very good at protecting the property, she will sit on the stairs staring out of the window, as soon as someone enters our garden, oh my dont we know about it. She does narf bark, a very specific bark.
My girl is good at being recalled in the home and garden, but as soon as she is off the lead in a field, she will not come back, she chooses to ignore and be very stubborn. She has a tendancy to escape the house at every opportunity too, you have to hope that when she runs off that she is going to come across someone so she goes upto them for a stroke and some attention,t hats the only way we can catch up with her and get her back.:scared:
Crafty little thing she is  You couldn't teach her some of your magic could you?


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I know nothing about Weimaraners as a breed - but that is a Lab through and through - stubborn, strong willed with selective deafness, loyal to the end - but will try your patience because they can.
> 
> Some people have this weird misperception that Labradors come fully trained, when Labrador puppies can try the patience of a saint - they resemble a crocodile with smaller, sharper teeth - and in terms of what they end up like, you get out what you put in.
> 
> and yes, I've got six of the little darlings, including three generations of my own breeding.


Yep we have had the labs too, they too can be little terrors and be very destructive. Luckily we never had the chewing with our girl, thankfully :thumbup:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> Wow you must have them well trained :thumbup:
> Meg is very good at protecting the property, she will sit on the stairs staring out of the window, as soon as someone enters our garden, oh my dont we know about it. She does narf bark, a very specific bark.
> My girl is good at being recalled in the home and garden, but as soon as she is off the lead in a field, she will not come back, she chooses to ignore and be very stubborn. She has a tendancy to escape the house at every opportunity too, you have to hope that when she runs off that she is going to come across someone so she goes upto them for a stroke and some attention,t hats the only way we can catch up with her and get her back.:scared:
> Crafty little thing she is  You couldn't teach her some of your magic could you?


Dont take this personally..lol But I personally think it is the lab in her.. i find them quite sstrong minded..lol

When My eldest was a puppy she wandered away from me on a walk not out of sight.. But imo too far.. I turned and ran away from her.. she realised and came after me so quick.. She did this once more.. I hid in the bushes next time she was frantic.. but sniffed me out.. ow she won't go out of my sight..lol she aint daft....

I know some weimeraners x dally's.. They were all chocolate or black.. solid in colour with a fantastic gleam.. If you read up on the weimy's you will find out about the colouring and its quite surprising.. x


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> Yep we have had the labs too, they too can be little terrors and be very destructive. Luckily we never had the chewing with our girl, thankfully :thumbup:


I agree there on the labs..lol My x's mum had a black lab well trained used to go out shooting etc.. But when home and left for a short while could still eat a mobile or a coat or a door..lol


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> Ll depends on the vet and there interests.. we have vets round here who are experts on some dogs.. And will no the relevant health tests for the breeds they are interested in.. As the same with anything.. We all have something we have a great interest in and will thrive to know all we can about this interest..
> My gripe was with the way the poster said it generalising thats vets new FA!
> 
> And re people being disrespectful to others..
> ...


I suppose as an "oldie" who just cannot get used to the "smilie" thing then I am culprit of people reading my posts in a way totally opposite to what I mean....("makes note to use more smilies") :lol: But I read posts through grammar and punctuation rather than smilies...Your last comment with an exclamation mark to me means your anwsering me with a statement...a statement that I never asked an answer for.

No seriously i really did think this thread was going well and some interesting points have been bought up.

From myside...I just cannot understand why not to test but then as someone said earlier "we are all entitled to our own views" which is true but I can only try and understand their views if they give the reason to why not because as you say I cannot just read their faces.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Vets are not dumbos - but, just like GP's they will have areas where their knowledge is stronger than others, that's why we have specialists to turn to when diagnosed with a specific problem. 

In vets it is even more complex because there are so many different types of animals and breeds within them - they cannot be expected to know all of it.

Sadly, some vets genuinely have little or no idea when it comes to health testing.

I do a 180 mile round trip to get my dogs hips and elbows done as it has been proven over and again that not every vet can take good plates. I know of someone only recently who used their own vet for hipscoring - the vet diagnosed Hip Dysplasia in a dog who had presented no problems, and had a line of bitch owners waiting to use him.

I was laughed at for persuading this person to find another vet through breeder recommendation and get another set of plates done - the plates went off to the BVA and came back scoring BELOW 10.

This dog could have been consigned to the scrap-heap in terms of breeding, and suffered a life of restricted exercise and un-necessary medications.

================

Another friend's pup stayed with me for a while after she was taken into hospital when pregnant - I knew almost straight away there was something 'wrong' with this dog - I didn't know what, but it was clear something wasn't right.

The vets diagnosed about 6 different conditions including Hip Dysplasia - when in fact - his hips were damn near perfect and he had OCD of the hock.

Another dog, diagnosed with luxating patella actually had a ruptured disc in the neck which if left untreated can paralyse a dog. (and having had a dog suffer this from an accident, the agony they go through is terrifying).

=====================

They DO know more than us in general - but sometimes, like doctors, we put blind faith in them - and like everyone else, they are only human.

In terms of breeding, I value my vets opinions, yet, in all their years of practicing, they've never come across another Lab breeder who tests to the level I do  

In reality - vets should have up to date documentation listing ALL the breeding health requirements for every breeds so they can advise people - far too many say, oh yes, they are healthy, they will be fine for breeding - people might not like it - but from some vets, it's sadly fact


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Dont take this personally..lol But I personally think it is the lab in her.. i find them quite sstrong minded..lol
> 
> When My eldest was a puppy she wandered away from me on a walk not out of sight.. But imo too far.. I turned and ran away from her.. she realised and came after me so quick.. She did this once more.. I hid in the bushes next time she was frantic.. but sniffed me out.. ow she won't go out of my sight..lol she aint daft....
> 
> I know some weimeraners x dally's.. They were all chocolate or black.. solid in colour with a fantastic gleam.. If you read up on the weimy's you will find out about the colouring and its quite surprising.. x


Everydog we have ever had has always been strong minded, we have only ever stuck to weimas, labs and a golden retriever. The GR was the only one that never pushed us to insanity, she was brilliant. Most deffinately my choice of dog when i move out and start a clan of my own.

Aww poor puppy, but if thats the magic it takes, then I will go with it!! Lol.
Must try that with any future pup 

Oh my, the litter my girl was from, she has all sorts in her litter. All solid colours!! I must find a picture, such gorgeous puppies too. There were 2 charcoal grey (including mine) one silver, one beige colour, a chocolate and the about 5 black. They all had bright blue eyes, except the black ones. Just a very outstanding litter!! x


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

deb53 said:


> I suppose as an "oldie" who just cannot get used to the "smilie" thing then I am culprit of people reading my posts in a way totally opposite to what I mean....("makes note to use more smilies") :lol: But I read posts through grammar and punctuation rather than smilies...Your last comment with an exclamation mark to me means your anwsering me with a statement...a statement that I never asked an answer for.
> 
> No seriously i really did think this thread was going well and some interesting points have been bought up.
> 
> From myside...I just cannot understand why not to test but then as someone said earlier "we are all entitled to our own views" which is true but I can only try and understand their views if they give the reason to why not because as you say I cannot just read their faces.


Im not big on smilies either.. If you read to where I first started on this thread it was over Matrix/logan being pulled, the person said they were taking it personally and possibly had reasons or something along them lines Matrix/logan never actually put on this thread he has seen abuse but could see where it was going because it has happened so many times before.. But he was pulled straight away.. Regarding my exclamation mark.. i was telling who ever That I do not have to pull up and quote threads to prove this... I personally have not liked some remarks.. i have pulled them.. And yes freedom of speech.. But we all have to remember we are talking about something we all love.. Whether it be a x breed or a pedigree... 
If my neighbour x's her dogs as Ive said its none of my buisness..
Its through good selections that we can improve the dog.. But personally I have never meant anyone qualified to make this decision..

What right do we have to improve the dog..lol Like I have said also majority of breeds have several dogs in them before the breed was established..


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> Everydog we have ever had has always been strong minded, we have only ever stuck to weimas, labs and a golden retriever. The GR was the only one that never pushed us to insanity, she was brilliant. Most deffinately my choice of dog when i move out and start a clan of my own.
> 
> Aww poor puppy, but if thats the magic it takes, then I will go with it!! Lol.
> Must try that with any future pup
> ...


I could be very wrong.. I am no expert.. But in pure bred weims very dk grey or black are frowned upon.. But you do find if a weimy is x'd it will nearly always be dk.... My weimy's aren't silver they are bronze with amber eyes...

also please excuse my typing..lol I am using a note pad with only a lamp on and I keep hitting buttons I don't want..lol


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I could be very wrong.. I am no expert.. But in pure bred weims very dk grey or black are frowned upon.. But you do find if a weimy is x'd it will nearly always be dk.... My weimy's aren't silver they are bronze with amber eyes...
> 
> also please excuse my typing..lol I am using a note pad with only a lamp on and I keep hitting buttons I don't want..lol


Yep i would totally agree, what really annoys me is when people try selling crossed weimaraners or crossed labradors as 'Blue weimaraners' & 'Silver labs' Its just a case of crossing the two breeds and selectively breeding down the lines, carrying on a colour from one or the other and breeding it with the other to get more specific breed features with the others colouring. If that makes sense.
I see adverts on sites like 'Epupz' that advertize litters from 'blue weimaraners' at ridiculous prices! & it mkaes me angry that they do get away with it and people do fork out for scams. 

Your typing is fine, no worries there  x


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> Yep i would totally agree, what really annoys me is when people try selling crossed weimaraners or crossed labradors as 'Blue weimaraners' & 'Silver labs' Its just a case of crossing the two breeds and selectively breeding down the lines, carrying on a colour from one or the other and breeding it with the other to get more specific breed features with the others colouring. If that makes sense.
> I see adverts on sites like 'Epupz' that advertize litters from 'blue weimaraners' at ridiculous prices! & it mkaes me angry that they do get away with it and people do fork out for scams.
> 
> Your typing is fine, no worries there  x


LOL The KC don't have a choice on colour for weims.. (or 5 years ago they didn't) They believe they are all silver/grey.. lol

Is your dog short short haired like a weimy or does she have the longer lab hair?


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## jadiee-x (May 15, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> LOL The KC don't have a choice on colour for weims.. (or 5 years ago they didn't) They believe they are all silver/grey.. lol
> 
> Is your dog short short haired like a weimy or does she have the longer lab hair?


She is kind of in between, Ive always thought she had the weim coat, but after meeting a pure weimaraner the other week, she had a much shorter coat compared to Meg.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jadiee-x said:


> She is kind of in between, Ive always thought she had the weim coat, but after meeting a pure weimaraner the other week, she had a much shorter coat compared to Meg.


They have very short hair... Its great when out on walks and she has been swimming in the pits..lol she is always dry before we get home and the dirt just falls off..Love em I do...


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

I know absolutly nothing about matrix/logans abuse and would not want to be involved in it But I did comment on the comment he made "Why is it that you all complain about crossbreed dogs??" when the discussion was about health-testing. I used my own X bred dog last night as an analysis regarding having both parents of X breeds health tested so as to avoid the risk of upsetting anyone but then told that I shouldnt be on a "pet forum" because supporting health testing in X's is knocking X breeds....Very confusing that!

As to improve the dog I think that at whatever oppotunity we get we should improve the health of the dog. And that starts with education and health testing. Wether from vets or from forums the importance of these tests needs to be put across and not turn the tables and people using the excuse of " its because we despise X's" as that is absolute twoddle."

I love all dogs as well as everyone one else on here or we wouldn't be here but what I dont love is to see dogs suffering because tests wern't done by ignorant breeders. And yes I do think this is how we need to improve our dogs. 

How many people on here go out and buy a dog without tests (pedigree or not) and these are the ones who read about it day in and day out on here. If we are doing it then how are the Joe Public meant to know and be educated about them. Its not about slating crossbreeds its about buying them un tested and then having the audacity to say that people who support the tests are knocking X's.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

deb53 said:


> I know absolutly nothing about matrix/logans abuse and would not want to be involved in it But I did comment on the comment he made "Why is it that you all complain about crossbreed dogs??" when the discussion was about health-testing. I used my own X bred dog last night as an analysis regarding having both parents of X breeds health tested so as to avoid the risk of upsetting anyone but then told that I shouldnt be on a "pet forum" because supporting health testing in X's is knocking X breeds....Very confusing that!
> 
> As to improve the dog I think that at whatever oppotunity we get we should improve the health of the dog. And that starts with education and health testing. Wether from vets or from forums the importance of these tests needs to be put across and not turn the tables and people using the excuse of " its because we despise X's" as that is absolute twoddle."
> 
> ...


This is what happens when many people have opinions.. its like chinese whispers each persons adds a little of something else.. 
There are breeds I worry about and think Blimey.. But Im not in a position to make changes to these breeds.. i don't own them..


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## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

not read all this thread yet!!

but as i see it every pup breed wether mongrel or not means another dog left in rescue !!
staffys more so than anything 

am gonna read the thread properly now and see if my comment is completely out of text


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I think most often the offense is taken when deliberately skewed comparisons are made by those that want to make a point.

. . . . comparisons between breeders of pures and crosses that insinuate with blanket type statements that all those that breed crosses don't know their ancestors or lines and aren't concerned about health (don't health test). 

I've seen those type of statements many times on threads, and I know it makes my blood boil. I don't think I've read it on this thread, but posts might have been editted. I have noticed a great effort being made to mention that there is the rare crossbreeder doing things properly, and I believe that is what most who support crossbreeding want recognized.

CC


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jadiee-x said:


> Yep i would totally agree, what really annoys me is when people try selling crossed weimaraners or crossed labradors as 'Blue weimaraners' & 'Silver labs' Its just a case of crossing the two breeds and selectively breeding down the lines, carrying on a colour from one or the other and breeding it with the other to get more specific breed features with the others colouring. If that makes sense.


It actually makes no sense - a colouring if carried only by one parent and producing pups of that colour has to be a dominant gene - i.e. black in Labradors. Yellow and chocolate in labradors are recessive genes, and cannot physically be produced unless both parents are, or carry that particular colour. A Lab / Weim Cross would therefore either be black or a shading of the solid weim colour.

While there are clearly some Weim / Lab crosses being marketed as 'silver Labs' It is far more likely that a large number of the pedigree so called 'silver' Labs (which are registered as chocolate / liver) are light shades, carrying / displaying the dilution gene - giving them they their very light non-descript colouring which some bright spark decided to market as silver 

Likewise, you get black Labradors who have a blue tinged undercoat as opposed to the mousy brown most expect - again this comes from the dilution gene.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ninja said:


> not read all this thread yet!!
> 
> but as i see it every pup breed wether mongrel or not means another dog left in rescue !!
> staffys more so than anything
> ...


my feelings exactly.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Ninja and Lorilu, I am not from the UK, so don't know your numbers. Do you know what the approximate number of dogs is in the UK?

With the average lifespan approximated at 11.3 years for dogs, I can calculate how many die each year, and that people are then wanting to replace. Usually some don't want to replace, but equal or more numbers of new owners are getting involved that make up for that.

I'd be very curious if that number (homes wanting dogs) exceeds the number of dogs offered by rescue each year.

I do know the numbers in Alberta, where I live. In our two main cities our rescues only can supply about 20% of the demand for dogs . . . and those two main cities manage to home all healthy and adoptable. (Still it is a tough go with the larger, young and rumbunctious ones). We therefore need breeders, and frankly I want caring breeders instead of the commercial types that breed small dogs that lived in cramped cages for life and that have been increasing in number here to fill the void.

According to Nathan Winograd similar numbers can be found throughout the USA. The problem of animals dying in shelters is just not as easy as a pup bred vs. a pup left in rescue. That is much too simplified.

Debunking Pet Overpopulation : Nathan J Winograd

_. . .

6. Other than those who will adopt from a shelter as a matter of course (those saved above), how many people in the U.S. are looking to bring a new dog or cat into their home next year but have not decided where they will get the animal and can be influenced to adopt from a shelter? 17 million. *So, 17 million people for 2-3 million dogs and cats.*

7. Has this happened anywhere? *Yes, there are many communities which have hit the 90th percentile in save rates.*
8. How long did it take them? They did it virtually overnight when new leadership committed to the No Kill philosophy and passionate about saving lives replaced long standing bureaucrats mired in defeatism and excuse making.

9. Are shelters doing all they can to influence those people to adopt from them? This is a rhetorical question. Click here (audio) for an all-too-common experience shared with me by a potential adopter when I was assessing a local shelter.

10. *Why don't they do better? A failure of leadership among the national animal welfare groups *such as ASPCA and HSUS, a crisis of uncaring among shelter managers, unfettered discretion to avoid putting in place the programs and services that save lives, *and the built in excuse of pet overpopulation*._​
CC


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> In a good few years some of the cross breeds today may become a recognised pedigree breed


which ones? :huh:

the kennel in Oz that began producing Lab x Poodles in the early-80s at the request of the Guide-Dog Assoc of Aus is still 
producing some pups who do not meet their (admittedly stringent) standards after approx 30-years - 
despite careful records, **waiting** till 2-YO to breed, gene-screens, puppy tracking for health, performance + structure, 
S/N for those who fail to meet that std, etc.

they do everything RIGHT - and yet pups with shedding coats, poor texture (open + absorbent of water - like walking 
a 4-legged mop in the rain), dysplastic elbows + hips, etc, still occur.

how will the money-grubbing eejits who throw together any 2 available breeds of opposite SEX create *new breeds* - 
which produce STABLE offspring that clearly resemble their parents, and are recognizable as a type?

do U think Border-Borders will become a *breed* with a breed club? 
they are sports-specialists intended for speed and small size, the height-dogs for flyball - generally out of the 
Border-Terrier bitches by BC-sires to capitalize on the smaller bitch reducing the adult-size of the pups. 
i doubt they will EVER be a breed - they will continue to be an F1 product of 2 purebred parents of diff-breeds, bred. 
and no matter WHAT the breeder of buyer claims, *Money is the driving force* - 
whether its buck$ for breeder$ or the bragging-right$ for the trophy and ribbon winner$, prestige + profit are the engine. 
WINNERS are what its about - not *health*, not improved structure or increased diversity.

Money talks - *loudly.*  
very sad, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> My mam got a JRT x staffy that way *she was told he was a pure JRT.* saw parents .... or [claimed] parents,
> anyone can say this was the dad and [theres] no proof.


simply collecting the DNA of the supposed PARENTS + holding onto it in the sealed container provided for the purpose, will force the breeder to come clean OR will allow clear financial recovery after the dog matures, as NO dog of a JRT x Staff breeding will remoitely resemble a classic terrier as an adult -

at which time, they break-out their test-kit 12-mos later, send it in for analysis WITH a 3rd cheek-swab specimen from their purchased-pup, PROVE with the 3-way test that there is No Way this pup came from THOSE parents, *and take the *%$#@!*! breeder to court to recover EVERY penny of the pups cost, plus court fees and with luck, a FINE for fraudulent claims + sales.* :thumbup: sounds great to me... 

*anyone can make claims - nowadays, anyone can DISPROVE false papers with a 3-way test of DNA - both supposed parents, and the offspring. *  use the available technology to discredit the *#[email protected]!*%$#*! * and with luck, have their Council license revoked for violating Trade Acts. 

*hit them where it hurts - in the WALLET. * :thumbup1: don;t just whine about it - STOMP them financially. :001_tt2:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> which ones? :huh:
> 
> the kennel in Oz that began producing Lab x Poodles in the early-80s at the request of the Guide-Dog Assoc of Aus is still
> producing some pups who do not meet their (admittedly stringent) standards after approx 30-years -
> ...


I am not talking about the health of the dogs, I was mearly stating that this is how breeds become recognised like someone said the Plumber Terrier is a prime example. How can i tell you which others? I dont have a crystal ball


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> simply collecting the DNA of the supposed PARENTS + holding onto it in the sealed container provided for the purpose, will force the breeder to come clean OR will allow clear financial recovery after the dog matures, as NO dog of a JRT x Staff breeding will remoitely resemble a classic terrier as an adult -
> 
> at which time, they break-out their test-kit 12-mos later, send it in for analysis WITH a 3rd cheek-swab specimen from their purchased-pup, PROVE with the 3-way test that there is No Way this pup came from THOSE parents, *and take the *%$#@!*! breeder to court to recover EVERY penny of the pups cost, plus court fees and with luck, a FINE for fraudulent claims + sales.* :thumbup: sounds great to me...
> 
> ...




I dont think its that common for people to collect DNA in the uk. But ben is clearly not a true JRT his head is like a staffies not as broad though but obviously too big for a JRT. as it is my mam didn't mind as hes a pet anyway.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> ...I was (merely) stating that this is how breeds become recognised like someone said the Plumber Terrier is a prime example.


hey, dk! :--) 
what is a Plumber Terrier - and are U sure of the spelling? :huh: naming a terrierrist breed after a building-trade seems 
unlikely, to say the least.

a Carpenter-Collie or Electrician-Poodle? :laugh: Dry-Wall-Hanger Hound?


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, dk! :--)
> what is a Plumber Terrier - and are U sure of the spelling? :huh: naming a terrierrist breed after a building-trade seems
> unlikely, to say the least.
> 
> a Carpenter-Collie or Electrician-Poodle? :laugh: Dry-Wall-Hanger Hound?


Bet they would do a better job! It is a Plummer Terrier :thumbup:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, dk! :--)
> what is a Plumber Terrier - and are U sure of the spelling? :huh: naming a terrierrist bree
> 
> 
> ...


No its Plummer Terrier

Here was My Jess









In the cats bed...lol



















And god help anyone who went near her little man when he was asleep...


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

They are all Red and white all have white legs a white ring round the neck and a white tip on the tail.. And they are very good at ratting etc.. Very quick.. very loyal little dogs.. Correct me if im wrong but they are years of selective breeding of the Beagle and a couple of terriers...

Lovely dogs...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

chianya said:


> cross breeds r more healthier than pedigree my vets told me that and a bbc documentary has proved it


hey, chia! :--)

then Ur vet is misled, poorly-informed, or ignorant - or perhaps s/he sells cross-bred pups as a side income. :huh: 
ya never know - anything is possible. (shrug)

cross-breeds can have *any heritable problem that their parents, or the parents ancestry, may have had - or carried, 
without symptoms. crossing 2 carriers results in a symptomatic dog.*

*most of the cross-breed SELLERS that i know* - i refuse to call these slimes *breeders* - * 
do not do one genetic test on either prospective parent to screen preventively. 
it would cut into their profits -* they invest the minimum possible in their breeding stock, prenatal care, tests, 
TIME wasted on the dogs - like training, like free exercise, like grooming - they feed cheap, they house cheap, 
they **are** cheap. :thumbdown:

they sell pups as early as possible; if some pig-ignorant buyer wants a 5-WO pup, they do NOT say, _no, thats too young..._ 
they ask, _which one?_ and _do ya wanna buy a used crate for the car?_

*a Lab x Poodle can have: 
* hip dysplasia 
* elbow dysplasia 
* UAP - 
a chunk of elbow rattles-around in the joint
* Sebaceous adenitis 
* patellar luxation, either medial or lateral 
* cherry-eye 
* juvie-cataracts 
* PRA 
* any other Lab or Poodle heritable problem

* any generic dog-species potential problem - 
IBS, atopic dermatitis, food-allergies, contact-allergies, bloat, Demodex-outbreak, etc... *

decent dog-breeders 
* LOOK at prospective dogs 
* HANDLE them to determine temp + structure 
* get RADIOGRAPHS to define structure 
* TEST for heritable problems 
* WAIT till 2-YO to breed 
* FOLLOW their pups for health, longevity, performance 
* TAKE Back their pups at any age - or support Breed-Rescue

find a *person* who sells crossbred-pups and does all of those - and good luck. 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Xbreeds are healthier than pedigree's..mmm 

If this was to be proved they would need to have thousands of xbreeds from pup and thousands of pedigree.. And monitor the whole growing process, till death... This would take many years of research and I can't see it happening..


At the end of the day.. Is all we can do is love the pets we have and give them all the care and attention they need.. they are our four legged pals...

They can't speak and tell us how they feel..

I don't think there is a winner for this debate.. just love what you have!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Brian Plummer created the Plummer Terrier, www.theplummerterrier-association.co.uk and European Plummer Terrier Society - EPTS - A community for the Plummer terrier enthusiast if you want to read up about them.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Burrowzig said:


> I know 3 GSD/BC crosses, all of them have nervous agression tendencies which seems to be a combination of the guarding side of the GSD with the neurotic side of the BC. One of them is also rather thick, the other 2 not any more intelligent than either parent breed. All were rescues though, so if got from a pup they might be OK. One has bad HD, made worse by losing half a back paw in a road accident, another has moderate HD. I wouldn't want one.


They were probably bred from nervous parents a trait as you know seen in many GSD's and BC, GSD X BC's are both the best and the worst dogs I have ever seen. The parents of the litter we have a dog from were super confident, strong temperament, excellent workers, and thats what they produced.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

People are discussing, that's why it's still going 

Nothing wrong with discussion!

I wouldn't give up my crosses for the world but I don't agree with how and why they came into this world.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> People are discussing, that's why it's still going
> 
> Nothing wrong with discussion!
> 
> *I wouldn't give up my crosses for the world but I don't agree with how and why they came into this world*.


same here...


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## Guest (May 16, 2010)

chianya said:


> try findin a pedigree that does all that testin dont know how many adds i came across which said pedigree but no papers


its very easy to find a pedigree whos parents have had all the tests done  but the pedigree ads youve come across are also for unethically bred puppies!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chianya said:


> try findin a pedigree that does all that testin dont know how many adds i came across which said pedigree but no papers also this has gone a bit off topic its about cross breeds not testin and i tried gettin a rescue but number 1 i was very picky and number 2 i have a child under 7 thank god 4 cross breedin otherwise i wouldnt have my perfect pet she is exactly what i want and there isnt a pedigree i wanted i cant believe this is still going on lol


You were clearly looking in the wrong place.

This IS about Health Testing - while I make it no secret of my views on cross-breeding - this does not tally on my view of cross bred dogs - who once they are here, have every much right to be loved and respected by their owners and the people around them.

It's little different to a girl getting pregnant at too young an age, you will be furious, unhappy, angry, disappointed and many more emotions, but ultimately, once past the point of no return, you will hope that mother and baby come through fit and healthy - it doesn't make it right - but it doesn't mean it is unloved either.

The point is, if someone INSISTS on Cross breeding, and I still don't understand why - then they MUST health test.

I've been said probably a thousand times over already by me and others on this thread that yes, we know not all pedigree breeders test, but a darn side MORE do than deliberate cross breeders and whether you want to believe it or not, to do it properly there will always be more tests required for health bred pups and a lot more knowledge needed by prospective owners.

There are hundreds of responsible pedigree breeders around doing their utmost to ensure that their puppies have the best start in life - sadly, you will seldom find those by looking through the free ads or local papers.

I spend literally thousands on health testing for my dogs before breeding, and if the results are not what I deem acceptable, then I don't breed from them - that is heartbreaking - particularly when you have searched for years for that dog, waited a few more years for it, set everything into campaigning it and doing the necessary tests - she's still curled up here on my sofa, worth every penny and more. Some people may have bred from here, I felt it wasnt right, because if something went wrong with the pups, I would forever blame myself.

If I know I have done everything I possibly can by abiding by the results I get - then if something goes wrong, it won't stop the worry or the guilt, but I will know in my own mind, I did the best I possibly could with the resources available.

Any breeder, whether pedigree or deliberate cross-breed should abide by the same values - sadly, far many more deliberate cross-breeders don't 

So yes, it IS ultimately about health testing.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> You were clearly looking in the wrong place.
> 
> This IS about Health Testing - while I make it no secret of my views on cross-breeding - this does not tally on my view of cross bred dogs - who once they are here, have every much right to be loved and respected by their owners and the people around them.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

chianya said:


> try findin a pedigree that does all that testin dont know how many adds i came across which said pedigree but no papers also this has gone a bit off topic its about cross breeds not testin and i tried gettin a rescue but number 1 i was very picky and number 2 i have a child under 7 thank god 4 cross breedin otherwise i wouldnt have my perfect pet she is exactly what i want and there isnt a pedigree i wanted i cant believe this is still going on lol


I can give you countless lists of pedigree breeders who do everything stated and more. Most peoples issues with cross breeding is the lack of health testing so its all relevant. It's great that your dog went to such a great home but what about the rest of the litter? Where did they go? Maybe it was an accident and your little monster was a blessing but can you honestly say that you think a repeat mating would be responsible? I'm not bashing your dog she looks fab, full of character. If there isn't a pedigree you wanted then why would you buy a combination of two pedigrees? Also, can i ask how old your girl is? xx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Luna's mum had 12-13 pups (all survived) and they've gone all over the country. Mum was very protective of her home apparently and I think it's where Luna has her aggression from. I wonder how many of the other pups have understanding owners like me, how many are in a rescue, how many have died (for whatever reason) and how many have been seized often


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Luna's mum had 12-13 pups (all survived) and they've gone all over the country. Mum was very protective of her home apparently and I think it's where Luna has her aggression from. I wonder how many of the other pups have understanding owners like me, how many are in a rescue, how many have died (for whatever reason) and how many have been seized often


Our boy Bronson has bad legs that have cost about 10 grand all in all in vet fees. If he hadnt had the operations then he wouldve had to be pts before he was 13 months . I shudder to think what might have happened if we didnt have insurance - and whats happened to his brothers and sisters if they didnt have insurance or patient owners. Hows Luna coming along, is she getting any better? She looks great in your pics, all grown up lol ! x


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Our boy Bronson has bad legs that have cost about 10 grand all in all in vet fees. If he hadnt had the operations then he wouldve had to be pts before he was 13 months . I shudder to think what might have happened if we didnt have insurance - and whats happened to his brothers and sisters if they didnt have insurance or patient owners. Hows Luna coming along, is she getting any better? She looks great in your pics, all grown up lol ! x


It makes you wonder doesn't it 

She's coming along really well thanks! She still has her moments but for the most part she can be across the street from a dog or about ten paces behind and not react (other than pricking of the ears because she's interested). I've not long started clicker training with her. Whenever she looks at a dog without reacting she gets a click and treat. I'm hoping she'll make the connection that dogs = good things and I can start to close the distance.

I'll need professional help though if I ever want her to be able to play off lead with strange dogs. Had my savings jar for that going for a good few months


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

sequeena said:


> I'll need professional help though if I ever want her to be able to play off lead with strange dogs. Had my savings jar for that going for a good few months


This is the second time I've posted on this in as many days after it never came across my horizon before.

Have you considered the individual Bach's remedies? A friend of mine had all sorts of problems, and had a full on single one on one day with a trainer, which included a consultation on treatment with a combination of the individual Rescue remedies - the difference is REMARKABLE.

So much so, I did an email consultation for one of mine who in a nutshell lacks confidence outside the home (yet in the home is lining up to take over from her mother as my next Alpha ) - despite the same cynicism I initially met Herbal Anti-inflammatories and Magnetic therapy for joint problems, I am once again VERY quickly coming around to this method of treatment, reasonably priced, non-invasive and effective.

You sound like someone who would be able to give an excellent account of the background and the issues - happy to share contact details by PM if you think they might help


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

to me its fair enough if people want something specific in a dog or a cross, but still there is no need to go to a BYB to get what u want. There are rescues and there are breeders who do healh test and breed responsible. 

And if there aint a choice of any of the above then people really need to think if their selfishness justifies buying from a BYB and encouraging bad breeding and so often the suffering of the poor animals.

If someone buys from a BYB and ends up with THE perfect dog, what about all the other puppies and all the following litters cause the BYB realised they sell for good money? People often dont seem to think beyond their own door step, they are happy with what they have got but no thought is given to those pups who maybe didnt turn out to be the perfect pets cause they inherited the difficult traits from both sides but look sooo cute and being sold just to anyone for a quick buck.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

chianya said:


> suki is 7 months old the breeders had both parents and it was there second litter i have always wanted a husky and now i have 1 without all the problems


Please don't take this offensively but remember shes still a puppy, theres alot more growing up and stages to go through before you know how she'll turn out. You don't know if she'll have problems or not, you can't fully judge at 7 months old. I know i can't tell you what my lot will be like and they're verging on two. You could have picked her and she could have had all the bad points of a staff and all the bad points of a sibe from the word go, if you see what i mean. People say you can't let a malamute off the lead, just the same as a sibe, whereas our mallies are off lead more than on. Just took a lot of extra training when they were proper babies. I'm still waiting for the day when they decide to have selecive hearing. Please don't think i'm personally bashing you, i'm really not, i'm just using your situation as an example. x


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> i have always wanted a husky and now i have 1 without all the problems


Without all what problems?


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Personally no pure breed dogs do it for me.

I love my lurchers and I wouldnt want it any other way. If there wasnt such thing as a cross breed then you would have the best animals for the jobs you intend them to do.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

swarthy said:


> This is the second time I've posted on this in as many days after it never came across my horizon before.
> 
> Have you considered the individual Bach's remedies? A friend of mine had all sorts of problems, and had a full on single one on one day with a trainer, which included a consultation on treatment with a combination of the individual Rescue remedies - the difference is REMARKABLE.
> 
> ...


Wow thank you! No I've actually not tried the bach stuff before ... don't know why I haven't as I've had bach for exams and did wonders. I'll respond to the rest of your post in a message as not to take over the thread


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Wow thank you! No I've actually not tried the bach stuff before ... don't know why I haven't as I've had bach for exams and did wonders. I'll respond to the rest of your post in a message as not to take over the thread


Have replied to your message - remember - it is the individual remedies rather than the actual Bach rescue remedy itself


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Have replied to your message - remember - it is the individual remedies rather than the actual Bach rescue remedy itself


Haha yes, I need it to be tailored to her, don't want her anymore loopy than she already is :lol:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Phoenix and charlies mum - have to say I agree with you totally when it comes to lurchers. I usually forget to count them when I'm talking about crossbreeds. I think they are all fab - usually a deliberate cross of specific breeds depending on exactly what they're wanted for, but all lovely. I'm a big fan of the "hancock" type, though I wouldn't buy one from him.

I do think where working dogs are concerned (like the lurchers and many terrier mixes) there is some health benefit to be had - as they are being bred specifically to be "fit for function" rather than pretty.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> as they are being bred specifically to be "fit for function" rather than pretty.


errr.... there are plenty of purebreds being bred 'fit for function' rather than pretty.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> errr.... there are plenty of purebreds being bred 'fit for function' rather than pretty.


and even more so now - even to start with, it was only a minute number of pedigree breeds who were affected - and big steps have been taken in many of those breeds already to change things, and they will continue to improve.

There are around 250 pedigree breeds of dog already, all bred for some specific purpose and many of them bred to be "fit for function" and "pretty" - and we are seeing it more and more that even the show people are dipping the toe into the 'other side' of things and getting their dogs trained to do what they were originally bred for.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> errr.... there are plenty of purebreds being bred 'fit for function' rather than pretty.


Oh I agree. I was comparing them more to other crosses than to pedigrees. For example, most of the "designer" crosses these days are bred for no reason other than to look cute and sell for silly money. All the doodles, poos, chons etc. No need to cross one cute toy breed with another cute toy breed, to make cute but overpriced mixed toy breed pups imo. At least the working lurcher breeders are selecting breeds and individual dogs for a genuine purpose.

And while they may not be a breed "lurchers" in their various forms have existed for many years, always bred for function over form. Its not a new money making scam.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

As I said on the other thread, dogs are bred for the purpose we give them, mine is a companion and does her "job" very well. If I wanted her to do anything else, I am sure she would quite happily do it and look good as well.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

chianya said:


> the op never mentioned anything about health tests in their first post so it werent about that to begin with and i now have a dog who isnt hairy overly strong to big 4 my family has very good recall and can be let off lead there r quite a few husky x staff on here i have several threads about them


Health testing and any breeding of dogs go hand in hand. You could have had that with a pedigree staff though. Yes that's what worries me, there is quite a few around nowadays, esepcially in rescue centres. Your dog is only 7 months old, she could well hit 14,15,16 months and all recall could go out the window, dog aggression could come out in her, she could become very stubborn ect - you have to wait and see how she turns out first. A puppy behaves differently from a teenage or mature dog. xx


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Health testing and any breeding of dogs go hand in hand. You could have had that with a pedigree staff though. Yes that's what worries me, there is quite a few around nowadays, esepcially in rescue centres. Your dog is only 7 months old, she could well hit 14,15,16 months and all recall could go out the window, dog aggression could come out in her, she could become very stubborn ect - you have to wait and see how she turns out first. A puppy behaves differently from a teenage or mature dog. xx


excellent post i couldnt agree more.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Health testing and any breeding of dogs go hand in hand. You could have had that with a pedigree staff though. Yes that's what worries me, there is quite a few around nowadays, esepcially in rescue centres. Your dog is only 7 months old, she could well hit 14,15,16 months and all recall could go out the window, dog aggression could come out in her, she could become very stubborn ect - you have to wait and see how she turns out first. A puppy behaves differently from a teenage or mature dog. xx


I agree with this. But also think you only get out of a dog what you put in behaviour wise, but some dogs no matter what you try it wont solve bad behaviour.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I agree with this. But also think you only get out of a dog what you put in behaviour wise, but some dogs no matter what you try it wont solve bad behaviour.


You're telling me!!


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> I agree with this. But also think you only get out of a dog what you put in behaviour wise, but some dogs no matter what you try it wont solve bad behaviour.


This wasn't so with our Chessie, hormones seem to overtake him and he became a dangerous bully at 21/2-3 years old. We had to have him castrated, and he returned to the lovely dog that he had been previously.
Not sure if his illness had anything to do with it


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

rona said:


> This wasn't so with our Chessie, hormones seem to overtake him and he became a dangerous bully at 21/2-3 years old. We had to have him castrated, and he returned to the lovely dog that he had been previously.
> Not sure if his illness had anything to do with it


Sorry to hear about Chessie, im glad you managed to solve the problem in the end though.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> I agree with this. But also think you only get out of a dog what you put in behaviour wise, but some dogs no matter what you try it wont solve bad behaviour.


One of our malamutes, Hudson is around 20 months now and is slowly becoming more dominant towards certain types of dogs, always males. We expected this as it is very much connected with the breed but he has been well socialised from day one, goes to three classes a week (ringcraft and obedience). At 16 months old any dog could approach Hudson and we would have no worries whatsoever now we understand his trigger and what he will or will not tolerate. It worries me that people cross breeds without a second thought of what could go wrong. x


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

chianya said:


> exactly your right mine is still young but if u read my other threads there r some who r older fully grown and still no problems


There are malamutes who have no problems whatsoever but there are more who do. Please don't think i'm personally attacking your dog, she looks gorgeous. x


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> One of our malamutes, Hudson is around 20 months now and is slowly becoming more dominant towards certain types of dogs, always males. We expected this as it is very much connected with the breed but he has been well socialised from day one, goes to three classes a week (ringcraft and obedience). At 16 months old any dog could approach Hudson and we would have no worries whatsoever now we understand his trigger and what he will or will not tolerate. It worries me that people cross breeds without a second thought of what could go wrong. x


I think it depends on the dog, each dog is different. Its like Blaze he was my 1st and i couldnt wish for a better dog hes so lovley non agressive 99% recall etc. hes 3 now Yet Pip who was raised the same way as blaze has a stubon streek, he wont always come when called.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> errr.... there are plenty of purebreds being bred 'fit for function' rather than pretty.


I would love to see a purebreed dog work better than my lurchers. I havent seen a purebreed that has the speed, agility and ability to hunt better than lurchers.

You could say Greyhound, but I have one and he is nothing compaired to my Saluki X Grey.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Colette said:


> Phoenix and charlies mum - have to say I agree with you totally when it comes to lurchers. I usually forget to count them when I'm talking about crossbreeds. I think they are all fab - usually a deliberate cross of specific breeds depending on exactly what they're wanted for, but all lovely. I'm a big fan of the "hancock" type, though I wouldn't buy one from him.
> 
> 
> > Me too, but personally I wouldn't pay the price that he is asking for, for a cross breed.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I would love to see a purebreed dog work better than my lurchers. I havent seen a purebreed that has the speed, agility and ability to hunt better than lurchers.


errr...... not all working dogs are required to 'hunt' in the way a lurcher does they have different jobs to do - that's why different breeds have been developed - because they are the best to do the job required - and there are plenty according to what job they are doing.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

Maistaff said:


> i may tred on some toes here but i have to ask the question .....
> 
> Why do people go out there way to breed cross breeds? I just don't understand why anyone would cross two dogs when there are so many wonderful breeds out there to choose form :
> 
> ...


cannot share your view for the following reasons:

1) my breed of choice is a caricature of a dog, yet i leke the traits, the stance, and it represents to me very dear memories...and a profound passion
2) i don;t feel i can work within the boudaries and hurdles placed by the stupidity of a breed club that's making showbiz demand above and beyond the haelth of a dog (hance the caricature)
3) i don't really give a monkey of what people think about my mutts...they are healthier and happier than the monsters they are producing nowadays...

...
...

i can go as long as you like....in presenting my reasons for breeding my wonderful mutts...

hope this taster satisfies your curiosity and maybe help you understand that there aren;t only the reasons of the purist breeders that, incidentally, have ruined my breed or the reasons of those that go against the purists (yet still within the breed clubs...) trying unsuccessfully to breed good dogs without getting placed into shows and all that you can imagine....but there are also the reasons of other breeders that cannot be hassled by the dirty politics going on within the clubs and go their own way (at their own great expenses) either not registering their dogs or cross breeding to avoid conformation or genetic problems...while trying to keep some of the characteristics that made the taht particular dog great in the first place.

best
D


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

dimkaz said:


> cannot share your view for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) my breed of choice is a caricature of a dog, yet i leke the traits, the stance, and it represents to me very dear memories...and a profound passion
> 2) i don;t feel i can work within the boudaries and hurdles placed by the stupidity of a breed club that's making showbiz demand above and beyond the haelth of a dog (hance the caricature)
> ...


Seeing that those the have professed to "better" my favorite breeds have completely ruined both of them - by making them caricatures themselves AND increasing the risk of horrible health problems, I understand your frustration D.

CC


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> cannot share your view for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) my breed of choice is a caricature of a dog, yet i leke the traits, the stance, and it represents to me very dear memories...and a profound passion
> 2) i don;t feel i can work within the boudaries and hurdles placed by the stupidity of a breed club that's making showbiz demand above and beyond the haelth of a dog (hance the caricature)
> 3) i don't really give a monkey of what people think about my mutts...they are healthier and happier than the monsters they are producing nowadays...


As someone who would never be likely to crossbreed (I never say never - but this is as close as), having seen the recent photo of Neos (I think it was) that you posted I can quite understand reasons.

I am very grateful that my breed (at least the working version of it) is still very much the breed that I love.

There are, I can see, very valid reasons for crossbreeding, but sadly, I find the following kind of attitude is the more prevalent one when breeding crosses (I hesitate to call it breeding as it is simply producing puppies). A bit like a chef given a few ingredients and told to make a meal out of them - this kind of breeding has no thought behind it, just a handy stud and 'they'll make lovely puppies'

Taken from a recent thread

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/102553-bizarre-conversation.html

I had this morning with a neighbour

Neighbour: Lovely dog
Me: Thanks I like your little jack russell (ridiculously cute and undocked too which was nice to see)
_*Neighbour: We should breed them I think they'd make nice puppies*_
Me: He's neutered and I wouldn't breed him even if he was
Neighbour: Can you not get it reversed?
Me: Erm no I don't think they can be reattached somehow
_*Neighbour: It's a shame you shouldn't have had him done you could have made nice money off him*_At this point I went back into the house. It was just strange. Buster's so much bigger than her dog I wouldn't have risked it anyway even if he wasn't neutered


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

chianya said:


> i didnt want a staff although r nice lookin dogs just wasnt 4 me a dog is 4 life so y should i pick 1 that i am only half happy with just to satisfy ppl who r against crossin and anyway most pedigree dogs have been crossed at some point even if it was centurys ago so thanks to them crossin some of u wouldnt have the pedigrees u have today


the main reason people are against crossing is because very few breeders do it ethically! blimey im getting fed up of trying to get that point across

so what exactly are your views on health testing dogs?


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Shamen said:


> the main reason people are against crossing is because very few breeders do it ethically! blimey im getting fed up of trying to get that point across
> 
> so what exactly are your views on health testing dogs?


Good question.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Shamen said:


> the main reason people are against crossing is because very few breeders do it ethically! blimey im getting fed up of trying to get that point across
> 
> so what exactly are your views on health testing dogs?


What I don't understand, then, if that truly is the main reason, is why blanket statements are made . . . such as ones that show a poster is against ALL crossing.

Biased questions like this that started this thread are included "_Why do people go out there way to breed cross breeds? I just don't understand why anyone would cross two dogs when there are so many wonderful breeds out there to choose form_."

This question shows no consideration for the fact that for some of us, our breeds have been completely ruined.

If it is about ethics, then the statement should be about being against unethical breeding and bad breeding practices no matter what is bred - not against ALL crossbreeding - as there are SOME ethical crossbreeders just as there are only SOME ethical pure breeders. Where I live they are both an extreme rarity to find.

Come to Alberta and try to find a Cavalier breeder that MRIs or follows heart-age protocol (and that includes the two judges in the province, one which uses a stud known to produce SM, and his offspring).

CC


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What I don't understand, then, is why blanket statements are made . . . such as ones that show a poster is against ALL crossing


I suppose in the same way some people make blanket statements that showing/show breeders ruin a breed / are only interested in rosettes /etc and KC registered dogs/purebreeds are unhealthy etc, purebreed dogs have been ruined (I'll agree in some cases but not all breeds have)... etc



> If it is about ethics, then the statement should be about being against unethical breeding and bad breeding practices no matter what is bred - not against ALL crossbreeding - as there are SOME ethical crossbreeders just as there are only SOME ethical pure breeders.


I think this is the most important point. Here in the UK, certainly amongst those looking for pets, the unethical crossbreeders are the majority although there are still unethical purebreeders too - I have no time for anyone breeding unethically, whether crossbreed or purebreed.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

How often are threads started that make a point of poking at/slating all purebred breeders and those that choose to buy from them, as compared to those started deliberately poking at/slating all crossbreeders, or those that choose to buy from them?

Just wondrin' if you've noticed.



rocco33 said:


> I have no time for anyone breeding unethically, whether crossbreed or purebreed.


Glad we can agree.:thumbup:

CC


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> As someone who would never be likely to crossbreed (I never say never - but this is as close as), having seen the recent photo of Neos (I think it was) that you posted I can quite understand reasons.
> 
> I am very grateful that my breed (at least the working version of it) is still very much the breed that I love.


yep. Neos
at the club show, they were supposed to be "the best of"....in the UK...a similar story in Italy and everywhere else...
it makes me quite livid seen those pictures....but i regularly watch them...i don;t know...

one thing though i suppose i must make clear, i don;t have any ambition to "recreate" the breed (as i don;t quite have what it takes in terms of the necessary finance...)... i am just happy in caring for dogs that have the original characteristics of health, temperament, fitness and comformation ...

D


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> What I don't understand, then, if that truly is the main reason, is why blanket statements are made . . . such as ones that show a poster is against ALL crossing.
> 
> Biased questions like this that started this thread are included "_Why do people go out there way to breed cross breeds? I just don't understand why anyone would cross two dogs when there are so many wonderful breeds out there to choose form_."
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand you? I think it's been agreed that there are ethical breeders in both sets, pedigree and cross breeders, but in my experience in the UK, there are more people who health test pedigrees than cross breeds, which is what I think the point Shamen was trying to make. There are probably, and very unfortunately, less people who health test overall  With pedigrees, perhaps it depends on what particular breed you are into, there are no mandatory tests, unless you are a member of the ABS in the UK, and even then, I'm not sure how effective the KC's system of checking these tests are in place on the dogs used? I have heard stories of different dogs being used, pups being registered to *other* litters etc, all very disappointing.

Just out of interest Chianya, what health tests had the breeders undertaken for the parents of your pup? I know you said you'd paid quite a bit of money for that cross, and had looked around for quite a long time to find the breeder you wanted.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not sure I understand you? I think it's been agreed that there are ethical breeders in both sets, pedigree and cross breeders,


I has been agreed by some, but my comment was about those that continue to make sweeping blanket statements about ALL those that crossbreed.

There are many examples easily found.

I regularly speak of crossbreeders that don't breed properly and comment about awful commercial breeders of both pure and crossed. It is not that difficult to make allowances in the language that you use to leave room for those that do breed crossbreeds with care, and those that do breed purebreeds with care. My comment was about the lack of effort many posters use to do so.

I have no trouble acknowledging that in the U.K. it is probably much easier finding a purebred breeder doing all they should. It is the blanket ill-thought-out promotion of registry breeding and purebreds and the blanket sweeping condemnations of crossbreeds and their breeders that I object to . . . . partly because they spread across the ocean and to other places where the dog show and registration world has not ever been embraced as fully. (75% pure in the U.K. as opposed to 10% registered here and less than that as you travel North.)

When I read articles that show our children have been so indoctrinated that they choose the "Alaskan Malamute" registry purebred as the State dog, completely ignoring the North's true traditional breeding methods (which did not include a registry anywhere), as well as the Alaskan Husky landrace and the generic 'Sled Dog', it truly makes me livid.

No matter what the promotion, the "Alaskan Malamute" of the registry is NOT the dog that has been bred in the North for thousands of years, as the tradition there NEVER included closed stud books and registry breeding. IF the registry was opened for this breed as it was in the true history of the North, I'd embrace this declaration.

Malamute Promoters Barking Up The Wrong Tree - http://www.adn.com/2009/01/26/668658/malamute-promoters-barking-up.html

_Like so many others, red dog *was a mix, a mongrel, a cross breed*. But all of that became irrelevant because he was a first-class sled dog with a big heart, a powerful body and an overwhelming determination to please.

Alaska was, in part, built on the hard work of dogs like this.

*They are the dogs that deserve our recognition for their role in our history.*

Not this breed or that breed over which the fans of each could no doubt argue for days or weeks, but that easily defined dog that could be yours or mine or anybody's in almost any shape or size -- the sled dog._​I am the owner of a 17 year old Northern born and hardy Alaskan Husky . . . that I guess never should have been born as, according to those that want to promote the registry system, her owners probably did not health test sire/dam nor care that they were mutts.

They did breed in OUR working tradition - breeding a hardy proven working dog with good health in his ancestry to another that is carefully chosen. It is amazing that with this way of breeding the Alaskan Husky landrace does NOT have a predisposition to numerous health problems.

The Saluki breed is another that has a strong landrace population with very few health problems, while the "registry" Salukis have trouble, yet reading these forums you'd believe that those in Africa breeding their landrace "mutts" are the unethical breeders.

I do object to the registries and clubs promoting themselves, their product and their methods as "best".

CC


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I am the owner of a 17-YO Northern born and hardy Alaskan Husky . . .
> that I guess never should have been born as, according to those that want to promote the registry system, her owners probably did not health test nor care about registration.
> 
> They did breed in OUR working tradition - breeding a hardy proven working dog with good health in his ancestry to another that is carefully chosen. It is amazing that with this way of breeding the Alaskan Husky landrace does NOT have a predisposition to numerous health problems.


hey, comfort! :--)

i would also point-out that there was a good, deep gene-pool with lots of diversity; 
there has been little if ANY matador-breeding - every bitch in an area to the same stud-of-the-week - 
and there has not been a whole lotta line-breeding or parent-to-progeny, bro-sis, uncle-niece, etc, sort of in-breeding.

preserving gene-diversity INHIBITS all sorts of nasty things - including the erosion of immune-function, which means more 
of nasty long-term or chronic issues or terminal issues: cancer, environ or food allergies, skin problems, auto-immune probs, etc. 
everything from arthritis to vWD goes up, when immune-functions go downhill; and immune suppression is breed-wide 
in low-diversity breeds, or is more line-specific in breeds with working, show and-or pet lines.

in Golden-Retrievers globally, RG is a common behavioral problem; 
in Goldens in show-lines, ONE version of susceptibility to cancer is found; 
in Goldens of field-lines ANOTHER version of cancer-susceptibility is found, 
and both are global. 
that IMO is a dam*ed shame :nonod:

all my best, 
--- terry


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Thank you Terry for mentioning this. I am very well aware of the advantage of open registries and genetic diversity - have been reading on the CanGen list for years and have included a close study of Dr. John Armstrong's comments from the archives . . . a man lost too soon.

I also recognize many of the advantages of "club" breeding.

I just don't believe there is a one size fits all "best" way for everyone and don't believe that those that don't abide by this self-declared "best" way should face regular scorn.

Malamute Promoters Barking Up The Wrong Tree - http://www.adn.com/2009/01/26/668658/malamute-promoters-barking-up.html

The Alaskan Husky and the Village Dog - http://fortoblog.com/2010/04/20/who...-sleds-the-alaskan-husky-and-village-dog.aspx

The World's Top Athlete Has No Paper Pedigree - http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2010/03/worlds-top-athlete-has-no-paper.html

Alaska: Made Of Special Dogs Of No Special Breed - http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/02/alaska-made-by-special-dogs-of-no.html

CC


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I know, I was just interested to hear what the breeders had done in your instance, as you'd been looking for someone who does breed that particular cross in a responsible way, and from your posts, you sound like you'd done your research and waited a while for the right pup


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

chianya said:


> yes i did i knew what i wanted. done lots of research on loads of dogs. filled out questionaires on finding the right breed 4 you, brought several different breeds books and spent a year looking at ad after ad on the internet and newspapers. this wasn't a last min thing like some ppl even if i did have the money the whole time i didn't want to rush and was even tempted by a few but realised they weren't 4 me.


chia, U still have not answered the question: 
_what tests, if any, were done on Ur dogs parents before breeding them?_

breed-specific issues in Staffordshire-Terriers AND in Siberian-Huskies individually, can affect their cross-bred progeny. 
also, SOME of the same issues are found in BOTH breeds.

to find which tests *should* be done / should *Have Been* done, here are Two resources:

Powered by Google Docs

_________________________________________________________

AVAR's Guide to Congenital and Heritable Disorders in Dogs 


> EXCERPT -
> _Siberian Husky:
> 41, 42, 65, 86, 103, 104, 121, 135, 147, 149, 152, 157b, 166, 186, 192, 221, 221a, 230, 245, 256, 270, 312, 328, 329, 330, 334
> 
> ...


as they do not list Staffordshire-Terriers, i chose 2 related breeds - AmStaffs + (English) Bull-Terriers;

from the same table - problems found in AmStaffs: 


> _American Staffordshire Terrier:
> 42, 54, 55, 88, 103, 166, 204a, 221, 221a, 256
> 
> 42: As Above -
> ...


from the same table - EBTs - 


> _Bull Terrier:
> 7, 27, 78, 94, 103, 130, 171, 186, 196, 221, 221a, 294, 318, 333
> 
> 7. Acral lick dermatitis:
> ...


were any tests done, or were any screens done? 
For Instance: 
*opthalmologic exam by a k9-opthalmologist*, which is a board-certified Vet-specialty?

*radiologic exam* for knees + hips?

*blood-work for vWD* -

*5-way thyroid panel at 2-YO BEFORE first-breeding - * 
preferably sent to the Michigan State-Univ vet-lab for analysis and comparison to a breed-specific values table?


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2010)

A question many of us have asked many times!
I can only think of one reason! MONEY!
The high prices charged for many of these dogs far exceed their full bred parents, But whilst there is a market for these breeds then the trend will continue!


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## BasenjiBaby (May 31, 2010)

What I'd like to know is how cross breeds became 'designer' like Labradoodles etc? Before this would always be called a Lab X Poodle but now it seems any mix has its own 'breed' name? 

PS I LOVE my liddle muddles no matter what they are & think all dogs are beautiful in their own way...even the ones that are SO ugly they're cute!:thumbup:


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

I've not read all of this thread will take some more time once my toddlers asleep but there are a few things that might be worth considering.

Part of the reason that cross breeds are said to be healthier than pedigrees is because recording keeping on true cross breeds (more than first - third generation pedigree crosses) is very limited, pedigree recording is entensive dependant upon the breed globally and vets tend to easily bulk a breed issues together. 

The RSPCA and other generic rescues have more cross breeds that need homes and as the fad has been for pedigree dogs increased with changing fashions and financial availabilty they have struggled to find the number of homes required, its been a good marketing campaign concentrating on the benefits of health when insurance and vet fees are so expensive. Insurance companies use Metrics (a statistical analysis to help develop targets and collate information) that batch information together and helps to raise their policy prices.

Health testing especially DNA is driven using breed specific criteria so to health test a cross breed would be difficult as the test is geared up to a pedigree or variation of a disease seen within a specific breed.

Physical testing like Hip Scoring is done based on KC name although can be done without they will not provide a test score only a guide. Each breed has its average there is no average for a cross as records are not kept. Personally I would go with the lowest average score of the breeds used.

First - third generation crosses are really not true cross breeds they are pedigree to pedigree dogs bred by breeders ie the person has choosen the stud rather than the dog (good old Heinz 57) choosing its own mating partner when given a choice of more than the dogs in the home - it was only 20 years ago when the roaming local lab/collie/spaniel/mutt would have done the deed and left the owners guessing as to breed. The Lab/poodle crosses were bred for allergy suffers that needed guide dogs with a calm temperament but both the Australian and the UK Guide dogs had some issues with the coats past a particular generation. A breed tends to be created to fit a working purpose, Guide Dogs have produced numerous crosses to find an all purpose dog. They are known for aiding the development of health testing. As a blind person you can't afford to have an ill aid.

Bit contentious but each breed has a standard, some that historically are very old and the majority of enthusiasts breed to meet the standard, which is not easy in any way shape or form. Someone who is prepared to stud their dog for cross breeding purposes is rarely doing it for the right reasons as they have no care about their particular breed, most rarely know the rich history, some just want their dog to get their leg over and for them to have some extra cash in their pocket. I have yet to see a breeder of cross bred dogs take back their stock if they need rehoming for example, not that all pedigree dog breeders do either but enthusiasts do and they are usually the best person to buy a puppy from because they are passionate about their dogs and will have done their homework. Its lazy breeding crosses especially giving them fancy names to up the rarity factor for selling purposes. Personally I see that as misleading the public, sadly some people buy for fashion and those dogs end up in rescues but not breed rescues because they rarely have homes for a cross so there is little support for owners.

I don't personally agree with cross breeding of pedigree breeds but have owned heinz 57s in the past that have been fabulous. If you want to breed research both the breed and breeding itself, be aware of the risks and the responsibilities and then ask yourself a question:

If all those puppies born could not be found a home or if their owners could not cope and needed to return them would you be able to offer them a lifetime home yourself?? Could you cope with potentially 2-15+ adult dogs possibly with behavioural or health problems?? If the answer is no then prehaps its worth considering not breeding. Sadly most would leave their owners to their own devices and rely on already over stretched rescues to clean up their mess. 

Anyone can breed not everyone is a breeder.


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## Gemma.turner (May 28, 2010)

Purely as my personal opinion, as a pet owner, no breeding experience with no intention to either, my partner and I have just chosen to go on a wait list for an Australian Labradoodle. Yes these dogs have been labelled "designer" dogs, and yes the price is high, but after doing research we still decided we wanted to pay for this dog! I hope not to offend anyone but here are our reasons:

I grew up with labradors and have always loved the breed, but we decided we didnt have enough space to have a labrador, so we had to consider a smaller dog.

We discounted a large number of pedigree smaller dogs, for various reasons, we had previously known one of the breed and not liked it or even it was not attractive (in our eyes). We are investing in a dog for life so we have to be happy with what we are buying even if it is a superficial reason such as looks to turn down a dog.

Some people have asked us why then did we not just go for a toy poodle if we are going for a miniature labradoodle, and quite simply our answer is, we don't like the look of traditional poodles (I dont wish to offen any poodle owners, just being honest!). 

We then met two lovely labradoodles. We decided to investigate further. We decided against a first generation cross between a labrador and toy poodle, due to the uncertainty as to coat, size etc. We could not risk getting a dog that would become too big for us. This in turn led us on to the Australian labradoodles. I know there has been a huge amount of debate about the two lines Rutland and Tegan originating from Australia, but after reading both good, bad, things we decided we would try to find a breeder here in the UK.

Why we are happy with our breeder. There is a wait list, not a huge turn around in puppies being spewed out to cash in on the 'designer' label. She vetted us thoroughly, through emails, on the phone, photo's of our home, outdoor space, our current employment arrangements, what we would do for holidays, experience with dogs, different breed experience, whether we would attend training classes, had we found a local vet, were we going to insure the dog and were we prepared to sign a puppy contract, stating that should anything change in our circumstances that we would not rehome the dog ourselves but would return it to the breeder. We have frequent contact from the breeder and are getting to know her quite well with updates about how the pregnancy is progressing. We have seen all health certificates and the conditions the dog is kept in, the same for the stud too. We are happy this is a responsible breeder.

I am in no way condoning irresponsible cross breeds, for instance I knew of an accidental mating that saw a shitzhu bitch and labrador stud, the shitzhu of course had to have a c-section (by the way the puppies were beautiful, and as they grew up they remained labrador puppy size but with a longer coat, all were loved by the local community, all the puppies bar one stayed locally). I just don't feel that all cross breeds are bad. Some of our friends keep asking us but how will know what it will be like, you have no idea if it will have a more labrador temperament or more poodle or more anything else that was originally crossed to produce the parents, and whilst this is true, we have met enough of the breed now to decide that we think there is a relatively consistent temperament to the breed and we like it! I have also known pure pedigree's to not be breed temperament consistent, this is not just a problem with crosses. We believe that with the right care and home and environment much of a dog's temperament/personality can be shaped, at least this is our experience of all our previous dogs.

I really don't mean to upset anyone with my post, and I do not assume that I am aware of every single fact to be taken into consideration with breeding, potential problems, all health testing, but from my point of view as a pet buyer, we are extremely happy with our breeder, the health tests done and the expected outcome of the intended cross. We are incredibly excited and can't wait for our australian labradoodle to be born (due in 16 days!). I just merely wanted to point out that not everyone has bad feelings towards cross breeds.

I hope this makes sense, and I hope that even people who are wholly against cross breeding can appreciate my point of view.

Thanks for reading!

p.s I just remembered that although not a recognised breed the KC when you check their health testing sections do actually provide a guideline for hip scoring of this breed. In my opinion I think that this is the KC beginning to recognise that cross breeding is how pedigree dogs come about and that maybe one day, labradoodle will indeed be a consistent enough cross to have its own breed standards and be recognised.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> In my opinion I think that this is the KC beginning to recognise that cross breeding is how pedigree dogs come about and that maybe one day, labradoodle will indeed be a consistent enough cross to have its own breed standards and be recognised.


Sorry, but no the KC is already aware that pedigrees started out by crossing, however, there is no likelihood of them recognising the labradoodle as a pedigree - it isn't. In order to be recognised, a breed has to breed consistently to type, and this is not so with the labradoodle. The biggest problem I see for people trying to make the labradoodle a breed is that they will become increasing unhealthy - much more so than their purebreed ancestors.


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## Gemma.turner (May 28, 2010)

I understand it is the need for consistency in type that enables the KC to recognise a breed, and yes at the first generation cross (F1) labradoodles are inconsistent, however when you start seeing F2's and F3's there is a growing consistency associated with type of coat, size and this is movement towards a standardised breed.

As far as to the health issues, I would presume that it would only be through irresponsible breeding of existing labradoodles with health problems that could lead to further health issues down the line. With correct health testing and only breeding from selected dogs I think that a healthy dog can still be achieved. It is also not only cross breeds that suffer from health problems. 
Having been around labradors all my life, I have seen some awful problems with hip dysplasia, this too being a prevalent problem when people breed without all the necessary tests in place.

I feel that it is unfair to label all cross breed with some of the problems that have become obvious in unsuitable crosses.

I am by no means on a mission to have the labradoodle a recognised breed, I just have a love of them and wanted to highlight that in my opinion not all cross breeding is a bad thing.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

dont forget this is a big no-no topic on here!! people have been kicked off for such debates!! its very much a roundabout topic,it goes round and round


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## Gemma.turner (May 28, 2010)

oops, don't want to get myself kicked off, I just find it quite interesting!

Will keep quiet on it, thanks for the heads up :thumbup:


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

its more when it gets into the designer dog dillemma,which it usually does..things take a turn for the worse!


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## taffydragon (Jun 2, 2010)

haven't read all of this thread but i have a crossbreed that i rescued, but i don't condone intentional cross breeding of dogs that are so different from each other, like the staff husky mix, especially if the staff was the mother.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I understand it is the need for consistency in type that enables the KC to recognise a breed, and yes at the first generation cross (F1) labradoodles are inconsistent, however when you start seeing F2's and F3's there is a growing consistency associated with type of coat, size and this is movement towards a standardised breed.





> As far as to the health issues, I would presume that it would only be through irresponsible breeding of existing labradoodles with health problems that could lead to further health issues down the line. With correct health testing and only breeding from selected dogs I think that a healthy dog can still be achieved.


Sadly that's not the case. The hybrid vigour that can be achieved with first crosses is lost on F2's and F3's and have a much smaller gene pool than even the original breeds they have been bred from this is fraught with dangers. Health testing is important, but it only covers certain conditions and by by using two different breeds, you are bringing in conditions that the other breed in the cross doesn't suffer from, so actually increasing the number of potential health problems. Not all problems can be health tested either, then you have inbreeding depression. Personally, labradoodles are not my cup of tea, but from a breeding and health POV, it would actually be better for them to remain F1s - a 'type', rather like lurchers, rather than trying to develop a breed.

PS - not a criticism nor trying to offend, but just trying to dispel some of the myths.


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## carebear (Jun 10, 2009)

found this one yesterday, got to laugh at the sales pitch. 
beautiful litter of buster pups paul ogrady dogs - newbridge - Cardiff - Dogs & Puppies for Sale - 61248211


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## Gemma.turner (May 28, 2010)

I know it's all personal preference with such things, and I must admit the labradoodle is the first intentional cross that I have ever fallen for. One day I'm sure we'll have another labrador but for now I'm very excited about our labradoodle.

I feel lucky that I'm only a pet owner and not trying to contend with all these issues when thinking about breeding.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Gemma.turner said:


> I know it's all personal preference with such things, and I must admit the labradoodle is the first intentional cross that I have ever fallen for. One day I'm sure we'll have another labrador but for now I'm very excited about our labradoodle.
> 
> I feel lucky that I'm only a pet owner and not trying to contend with all these issues when thinking about breeding.


 If anything, it is even MORE important that pet owners ensure they are buying from health tested breeding stock - responsible breeders can be quite disciplined about managing exercise and diet, avoiding stairs etc - pet owners seldom do.

Anyone who doesn't believe in the need for health testing should be aware, that recently, a breeder wrote into one of the dog papers about one of her pups she sold.

The pup had an eye injury, the insurance company refused to pay out without official proof that the pup was hereditarily clear for a number of eye conditions - this is almost undoubtedly the start of things to come and will ultimately place a far bigger burden on deliberate cross breeders than it will on pedigree breeders.


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