# Belgian Malinois/Border Collie puppy help.



## sarahhcee (May 16, 2017)

Hi,

Any help at all would be appreciated for this.

Me and my partner have had our Belgian Malinois/Border Collie mix puppy called Kai for around 2 months now, he is currently 15 weeks old. Everything has been fine so far, he knows sit, down, paw, stay, leave it, out, heel, watch me and comes when called. He is great with strangers and other dogs, but since about a week ago we have been having an issue.

Last week, I went to go sleep at my brother's house for a night (who has just got a new puppy) to visit him and see the new bundle of joy! This night Kai spent his night with my boyfriend who we have already noticed is Kai's favourite. 

However, when I got home the following day and my partner wasn't in. Kai was super happy to see me but within 10 minutes of me being home he was growling at me for no reason. I was stood not moving and he was growling, staring at me at the same time. He then did this after about give minutes again however he was snarling and barking quite nastily. He has never done this up until me being away for a night.

He has started guarding his food bowl so we have been training him out of this by giving him his bowl empty and slowly giving him the food into his bowl when he sits. 

Afew days after this he growled at me again when me and my partner were in the kitchen. Today he growled at me when I stroked him in his crate which he normally loves and lets me rub his belly but this morning he growled and moved his head towards my hand as if to go for a bite.

My partner has spent most of the day with him and he has been great with him but when I got home (Kai was happy to see me at first) we went into the kitchen and Kai was very tense you could see him watching my every move and his ears were twitching... He was laying down but he was staring right at me. My partner got him to come to him and he went to stroke him and he has snarled and turned his head again towards my partner's hands as if to bite again...

We have no idea why this is happening, but before a week ago Kai was so lovely and he loves any cuddles he could get but now it's like his personality has completely changed. Could he be abit possessive of my partner? Or jealous when we are together? Or is this quite a serious problem? 

We understand the food resource guarding and are working on this but the slight aggression towards me and my partner when we are together is extremely strange. And I feel like he has a problem with me in particular. 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. We are just slightly stumped.

Thankyou so much,
Sarah.


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## Guest (May 16, 2017)

Is this a rescue pup or did someone deliberately breed a BC and Malinois?
If you can get in touch with the breeder that would be a good first step, see if they have any insight in to the temperament of the dam and/or sire. Much of temperament is inherited. 

Though both BCs and Malinois are herding breeds I would imagine there would also be a lot of competing drives in a dog of this mix, as well as potential for a lot of strange neurosis. 
Are you familiar with either breed? Do you have much experience with either?

I think I would enlist the help of a good behaviorist sooner rather than later. 
In the meantime, definitely do not touch him while in the crate, and perhaps feed him all his food rations via training, not in a bowl at all...


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## sarahhcee (May 16, 2017)

He is from a breeder. I will do this and ask the breeder. His dad (the Malinois) is a protection dog and has very high drive in particular. 

I am more familiar with border collies than Malinois however did alot of research before this and my partner has had several dogs including collies but not a Malinois.

We have him on a raw diet at the moment therefore his food is hard to divide to use when training but we will try to do this.

Thankyou for the help, I have been in contact with a behaviourist recently so will follow up on this now.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Make sure the behaviourist uses only positive, reward based training as dominance/alpha techniques will merely add to your problems and possibly provoke an extreme reaction from your dog.


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## sarahhcee (May 16, 2017)

Is this behaviour something we should be worried or concerned about? I know aggressive behaviour is never a good thing but could there be a reason he is being like this? Or could it be from his temperament/parents personalities?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

This might be helpful:


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## Guest (May 16, 2017)

sarahhcee said:


> He is from a breeder. I will do this and ask the breeder. His dad (the Malinois) is a protection dog and has very high drive in particular.
> 
> I am more familiar with border collies than Malinois however did alot of research before this and my partner has had several dogs including collies but not a Malinois.
> 
> ...


There is no reason why a raw-fed dog can't have their meals used for training. I know all sorts of raw fed dogs who never eat a "meal" per-se, but rather work for their food. 
@smokeybear has a raw fed Malinois hopefully she can be of assistance.

I'll be honest, I'm rather shocked this was a deliberately bred litter. I'm not sure what the point of crossing a protection dog with a border collie was? Did you intend to train this pup for any particular discipline?


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## Guest (May 16, 2017)

sarahhcee said:


> Is this behaviour something we should be worried or concerned about? I know aggressive behaviour is never a good thing but could there be a reason he is being like this? Or could it be from his temperament/parents personalities?


Yes, I'm sure there is a 'reason', there is always a reason. 
Whether that reason is due to a temperament issue, management, handling, or a combination of things is for a professional to assess and guide you on.

I do wonder if some of it might be aggressive play - the food guarding definitely is not, but some dogs are quite vocal and in your face about things, even play, and I suppose some of it could be demanding puppy trying to get your attention. I don't know though and I would hesitate to guess. 
But yes, aggression like this at 4 months is, well, not good.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Good grief what a mix and not in a good way. Way too many strong behaviours mix with this cross, defensivess, possible nerves, sensitivity, obsessive, guardy and as ouesi says even neurotic....none of which is a winning combination! I'd get a behaviourist in ASAP.....


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

-sigh-
Yet another collie cross with conflicting drives 

Where abouts are you?
@smokeybear will be able to point you to some behaviorists


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## sarahhcee (May 16, 2017)

We are in North Yorkshire and yes we would really appreciate some help with this. I want to do right by Kai and if he is going to have (or has) alot of conflicting thoughts and drives I want to get help for him and hopefully get this sorted out. 

He has been really great up to this point. Like something has triggered it or maybe just him growing and developing has made him like this. It's hard for us to tell. We will feed food while training from now on and yes any help with behaviourists would be great, thankyou.

Is this something that can be permanently fixed or could this be a constant issue with him? I'm guessing maybe the behaviourist will be able to possibly know after seeing his behaviour first hand. But obviously this is concerning us greatly.

Thankyou all for your help so far.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Where do you live I can probably point you in the right direction, this is not a cross that I would advocate and I am afraid that this may be a "project" dog ............................... both breeds are fast, superfast in arousal, reaction, speed and if you do not have the training chops, be like handling a firework


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## sarahhcee (May 16, 2017)

@smokeybear we live in North Yorkshire, in Skipton. I am deeply concerned about him and worried and I want to do the right thing by him.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

sarahhcee said:


> We are in North Yorkshire and yes we would really appreciate some help with this. I want to do right by Kai and if he is going to have (or has) alot of conflicting thoughts and drives I want to get help for him and hopefully get this sorted out.
> 
> He has been really great up to this point. Like something has triggered it or maybe just him growing and developing has made him like this. It's hard for us to tell. We will feed food while training from now on and yes any help with behaviourists would be great, thankyou.
> 
> ...


Jane is super http://www.janehanshawdogtags.co.uk/

Morag http://www.wellconnectedcanine.co.uk/

Do you happen to have his pedigree?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

It is probably a good idea (if you haven't already) to get him checked by a vet in case there are any underlying medical issues, especially if this has suddenly started happening. If all OK medically then a decent behaviourist is definitely the way to go.

I'm afraid I agree with the others though - both if these breeds can be a challenge as it is and mixing the two together is a very strange combination. Also, the fact that the sire is used for protection work and has a very high drive is an indication that his genes do not make for a suitable pet for the majority of homes. I think you will have your work cut out, but I am hoping that with the right help you can make it work.


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

sarahhcee said:


> His dad (the Malinois) is a protection dog and has very high drive in particular.


Can you find out from the mals owner if 'Briarquest' is in his dogs ancestory?


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Do you happen to have his pedigree?


Its a mongrel, but, the mals euro ancestors were not on a pedigree data base, they were registered on working dog registers in belgium & i think holland


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Poor little chap, you do need help, 2 complex breeds, until you can enlist some help I would avoid things like stroking him when he is in his crate, lots of pups would be worried about this, as they are confined, it is the mix of breeds you have there which means your pup reacts in the way he does. Other types of pup at this age may submit, which he may well be also doing when he shows his belly, or move away.


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## Laney_Lemons (Mar 23, 2016)

what a mix  

I couldn't handle either breed never mind both mixed together.

I hope a behaviorist will be able to help  at least your getting help now and not 8 months down the line.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Legshand said:


> Its a mongrel, but, the mals euro ancestors were not on a pedigree data base, they were registered on working dog registers in belgium & i think holland


A pedigree is just a family tree, I am fully aware that when you cross a Belgian Shepherd Dog with a Border Collie the result is a cross breed.

But thank you for taking the time and trouble to try and educate me.

As someone who has been to watch the KNPV and Mondioring I am also au fait with how the registers work .


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> As someone who has been to watch the KNPV and Mondioring I am also au fait with how the registers work .


Awsome...........:Kiss


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## Legshand (Aug 28, 2016)

KNPV Dutch Championship....


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

That is one fantastic dog and handler combination.


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## Ann Bailey (Jan 6, 2019)

This is Bronco our Border Collie Belgian Malinois mix. Got him at 12 weeks from a "breeder" as a rescue, who lied about his pedigree (we dna tested him). So, this combo is extremely challenging especially if the dog doesn't have a "job". We've spent thousands of dollars on obedience and behavioral training. His vet prescribes fluoexetine (Prozac) and Sollequin daily. Bronco will be 5 in May 2019 and is *finally* settling down somewhat. He's starting to relax and lose some of the hyper-vigilant neurotic behavior. He still sleeps with one ear perked for noise or anything out of the ordinary. He "growls" at us but we've learned it's how he "talks" because there's no aggression, just growly barky "talking" first thing when he greets us in the morning. He is a handful and knowing what we know now we would never recommend a dog mixed with these two breeds. After tons of love and consistent work, he's settled in as a beloved member of our family and we can't imagine life without him. He's acclimated to our lifestyle which I suppose does happen over time.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

That's a lovely picture of you both


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Ann Bailey said:


> View attachment 387079
> 
> This is Bronco our Border Collie Belgian Malinois mix. Got him at 12 weeks from a "breeder" as a rescue, who lied about his pedigree (we dna tested him). So, this combo is extremely challenging especially if the dog doesn't have a "job". We've spent thousands of dollars on obedience and behavioral training. His vet prescribes fluoexetine (Prozac) and Sollequin daily. Bronco will be 5 in May 2019 and is *finally* settling down somewhat. He's starting to relax and lose some of the hyper-vigilant neurotic behavior. He still sleeps with one ear perked for noise or anything out of the ordinary. He "growls" at us but we've learned it's how he "talks" because there's no aggression, just growly barky "talking" first thing when he greets us in the morning. He is a handful and knowing what we know now we would never recommend a dog mixed with these two breeds. After tons of love and consistent work, he's settled in as a beloved member of our family and we can't imagine life without him. He's acclimated to our lifestyle which I suppose does happen over time.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
Sweet looking pup, but definitely not a BCXMalinois


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## Ann Bailey (Jan 6, 2019)

Thank you! And we ran DNA he is!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Ann Bailey said:


> Thank you! And we ran DNA he is!


Those pet DNA tests are notoriously inaccurate. 
There is a video somewhere of a black and white registered AKC AmStaff coming back as a border collie. 
Your pup is lovely, but I really don't see any BC or Malinois in him


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## Ann Bailey (Jan 6, 2019)

Agree to disagree! The test is valid and accurate administered by vet. The floppy ears throw folks but that’s a dominant trait and in a mix anything goes.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

What a gorgeous pup Well done for not giving up on him.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Ann Bailey said:


> Agree to disagree! The test is valid and accurate administered by vet. The floppy ears throw folks but that's a dominant trait and in a mix anything goes.


The tests are most definitely NOT scientifically accurate.

He looks more like a Spaniely type mix to me. Phenotypically I would expect the Shepherd traits would show quite strongly in a first generation cross.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It really doesn't matter what you think your dog is. My only objection is - if you look at how this thread started, an owner having some pretty serious issues with a 15 week old pup. A deliberately bred BCXMalinois. 
a) why on earth would you cross those two breeds, massively competing drives, very strong drives, and a very confused and conflicted dog. 
b) average pet owner already having issues. Serious issues. 
This is not a cross I would support breeding and certainly not for the average dog owner. So to portray your non BCXMalinois as this cross just confuses the issue for anyone coming here looking to breed or buy this cross. Conveys the totally wrong idea.


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## Ann Bailey (Jan 6, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> It really doesn't matter what you think your dog is. My only objection is - if you look at how this thread started, an owner having some pretty serious issues with a 15 week old pup. A deliberately bred BCXMalinois.
> a) why on earth would you cross those two breeds, massively competing drives, very strong drives, and a very confused and conflicted dog.
> b) average pet owner already having issues. Serious issues.
> This is not a cross I would support breeding and certainly not for the average dog owner. So to portray your non BCXMalinois as this cross just confuses the issue for anyone coming here looking to breed or buy this cross. Conveys the totally wrong idea.


YES my point exactly. I would never cross these two breeds it's been exhausting. And my dog's mix is a salient topic *because* of the original thread. I don't at all advocate seeking out or crossing these two breeds based on almost 5 years of personal experience. Happy 2019 everyone. ✌ peace out!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ann Bailey said:


> YES my point exactly. I would never cross these two breeds it's been exhausting. And my dog's mix is a salient topic *because* of the original thread. I don't at all advocate seeking out or crossing these two breeds based on almost 5 years of personal experience. Happy 2019 everyone. ✌ peace out!


Its been lovely to hear about Bronco , I hope to hear more about him in your future posts . More photos would be nice


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

that dog has border collie markings but more hound or possibly spaniel looks. I think it would be just about impossible to be the cross you think it is. The dna tests seem to be totally weird, sometimes even bringing up breeds which do not exist in what ever country the dog resides in.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Didn’t a man send his dna to a panel and come back as a cocker spaniel?


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Siskin said:


> Didn't a man send his dna to a panel and come back as a cocker spaniel?


Yes but apparently he was known as a loyal friend with very soft hair anyway :Hilarious


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> Its been lovely to hear about Bronco , I hope to hear more about him in your future posts . More photos would be nice


Yes, it has been lovely to hear about a success story. It would be great if this owner @Ann Bailey could let us know a bit more about their lovely dog, as I'm sure the OP would be interested...

But I suspect she has gone...


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Chatcat said:


> Yes, it has been lovely to hear about a success story. It would be great if this owner @Ann Bailey could let us know a bit more about their lovely dog, as I'm sure the OP would be interested...
> 
> But I suspect she has gone...


Would have been nice to know how they got on with the puppy and if they have been successful in raising and training him


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Chatcat said:


> Yes, it has been lovely to hear about a success story. It would be great if this owner @Ann Bailey could let us know a bit more about their lovely dog, as I'm sure the OP would be interested...
> 
> But I suspect she has gone...


As the OP has not been seen for 18 months it is unlikely she would see the post


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

I'm talking about Ann Bailey.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Chatcat said:


> Yes, it has been lovely to hear about a success story. It would be great if this owner @Ann Bailey could let us know a bit more about their lovely dog, as I'm sure the OP would be interested...
> 
> But I suspect she has gone...





Chatcat said:


> I'm talking about Ann Bailey.


You ask that Ann Bailey tells us more about her dog because the OP would be interested. As I said the OP has not been around for 18 months.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Ann Bailey said:


> The test is valid and accurate


A British journalist researching these tests sent his own DNA sample and came back as a Cocker Spaniel cross.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> A British journalist researching these tests sent his own DNA sample and came back as a Cocker Spaniel cross.


Which ironically is a more believable cross for Bronco than BCXMalinois


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm not seeing Border Collie or Malinois in this dog.

Where did the ears come from?

"What can't speak can't lie".

Someone I know had DNA tests carried out for their tiny little Rommie Rescue. The result came back as mostly Irish Wolfhound.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Chatcat said:


> Yes, it has been lovely to hear about a success story. It would be great if this owner @Ann Bailey could let us know a bit more about their lovely dog, as I'm sure the OP would be interested...
> 
> But I suspect she has gone...


I think she has too, Shes not logged on since. A shame , I liked her , she was nice and we always need more members .


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## Ann Bailey (Jan 6, 2019)

Chatcat said:


> I'm talking about Ann Bailey.


Hello, I left the forum for awhile because my mom passed in Jan 2019 and at the same time my husband became very ill. So ill in fact we moved across the country from Oregon to Florida so he can be treated at the Mayo Clinic. I am on a leave of absence from my job. We left our large home in Oregon for a cute apartment in Florida. Yes Bronco came with us, he is adjusting well to life in Florida with beautiful lush landscaping (but no more fenced yard). Thank goodness there is a dog park here at the apartment complex. Because I am not working my husband and I spend much more time with Bronco together as a family. Bronky (as we affectionately call him) knows his dad is sick and stays by his side much of the day. He turned 5 in May 2019. He continues to mellow but is still insane at the door and does not do well with other dogs at the dog park. Behaviorally he was trending that way but to compound things the dogs here are neurotic maybe from apartment living I don't know, but they are very aggressive, the small dogs especially , and have Bronco a bit nervous at the dog park. Which then makes him want to display dominance. So we go when no one else is there.
As for his floppy ears and many people here doubting his border collie -Belgian Malinois origins, I should've mentioned in my first post that the DNA testing did say he was 12% springer spaniel so there are the floppy ears. He is not strictky a 50-50 cross of Belgian and border collie, but that is the majority of his DNA, over 70%. Here's a couple of photos, one is from his cross country road trip to Florida. He is still nervous around small children but has improved greatly-he spent time in New Orleans in the French quarter and only barked once at a child (he was waving a clown made animal balloon at him).Happy Holidays and Happy New Year to us all, and much love to our fur babies.


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