# Neighbours dog repeatedly attacking cats



## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

Hi all! I'm new here, but was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience to what's been happening in my neck of the woods...

A neighbour that lives behind me has recently put up anti climbing spikes on our fence to 'protect our cats from his dog'. When he put them up, he only did so on one part of the fence. As the fence was low enough for our young children to easily reach the spikes we asked him to take them down (so did 2 other neighbours that also have children). He didn't put them in his other fences, so cats could still easily get into his garden, even with the spikes in place. 

Now in the space of 8 weeks his dog has attacked my cat to the point we are lucky she survived, cornered another cat about to attack, and tonight has killed my neighbours cat. I know this happened in his garden so there is potentially nothing much that can be done, but it does appear the dog in questions behaviour is getting worse.

Up until a few months ago, i have seen numerous cats in their garden with the dog and it's not even batted an eye lid. I've also been told that when he moved in 2 years ago, that this dog attacked the owner to the point he had to hit it with a golf club to stop the attack, since then it has been diagnosed with epilepsy. This dog is also left to free roam in the garden as they have a dog flap, and is outside a good 90% of the time. The couple who own the dog also work very long hours, so it is left to go outside whenever it wants completely unsupervised.

When going to see the man tonight with my neighbour who's cat had been killed, the bloke literally laughed in my neighbours face when he was told it had killed an 11 year old girls family pet. We were then both hurled abuse, had him coming right into our faces and pointing his finger at us, which to me seemed like very threatening behaviour. When I said that the dog didn't used to be bothered by cats, and obviously it's behaviour has changed, what would happen if a child put their hand on top of the fence, I was told 'well your kids shouldn't be climbing the fence', which they don't have to as the fence is very low. 

I'm now genuinely concerned about not only the safety of my cats, but of my children too, especially as it seems the dogs behaviour is getting worse, and has previously viciously attacked its owner. Both me and the neighbours on both sides will be reporting it to the housing association we are with, the RSPCA and the local dog warden, and was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience, and if so what was the outcome?


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Sounds like a horrible person and if you are worried call a dog warden or your local police..

As regards the cats, if he is deliberatly setting his dog on them thats one thing but he did try to cat proof his garden and the cats are going in there of their own free will.. Its his property..

That in no way excuses his behaviour or attitude but I dont think he is liable for the cat deaths or damage. ( Although that new law might disagree)


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

I completely understand that it's his property, and if he'd have come and spoken to me I would be more than willing to sit down with him to try and come up with a solution that makes both parties happy. What I don't understand is that the nasty neighbour has actually told all of us that our cats don't go into his garden, it seems to be mainly strays that haven't figured out a dog lives there.

With the cat proofing, I honestly don't think that putting anti climbing spikes on one fence out of 3 is going to do anything other than peeve neighbours off... Said spikes were actually placed on the fences that are on mine and the neighbours on either sides properties. But to be honest, the spikes wouldn't have been much of an issue if they weren't on a 4ft fence within easy reach of my children.

Also, when my cat was attacked, the vet believed that the wounds showed my cat was high up when it was bitten, probably on a fence, and then dragged down. The cat killed tonight has been bitten exactly the same way. This really really worries me as the kids often stroke the cats while they're on the fence, and I'm now terrified the dog is going to hurt one of my children by trying to get to a cat. Couple this with being told it has already attacked it's owner, and the owner saying 'I hope my dog tears the cats apart', I'm practically freaking out! I honestly would not put it past him to deliberately let his dog out if he saw a cat in his garden/on the fence.

I'll be calling everyone as soon as offices are open


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Keep you cats in, put up a fence on your side and keep your children away from the fence. This is an incident waiting to happen so don't let it be to you. Even if you get something done about it by the HA or whoever, chances are it will take a while to resolve and imo this is what the Americans call "clear and present danger".


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe I'm not understanding the problems here .... really it should be you who stops your cats entering this mans property.

Admittedly he could have dealt with the death of your neighbours cat differently but your comements regarding the dogs past behaviour is hearsay, how do you know what is really the truth?

If the dog is suffering from epilepsy then maybe this may have played a part in the dog attacking his owner, who knows .... Maybe the dog did used to be ok with cats but is now getting upset that cats are constantly coming in to 'his' garden ..... I don't think this is unreasonable at all 

My dogs also have free range of my garden & despite me having two cats (which they get on very well with) they would attack a strange cat. Tbh, it's not really up to me to stop another cat getting in to to my garden but the owner of the cat to look out for it's safety

Sorry, but you are responsible for your cat & if you choose to let it free roam then you should be the one instigating talks with your neighbour to see how you can prevent your cats from entering his property & upsetting his dog ... surely!


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## shortandfurry (Jan 30, 2013)

Even a small dog can clear a 4ft fence if it wants to. I second the idea of upgrading the fence. Catproofing your garden would be even better.

He might be a horrible man, and the dog may be vicious, but your cat's safety is your responsibility.


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

And that is why when my cat was attacked, I didn't go round pestering for contributions to vets bills etc, but I also don't think it's fair that my cat, walking along my fence should then be pulled down by a dog and savagely attacked. As I've also discovered, the anti climbing spikes do precisely naff all in regard to cat anyway, as I've already seen 2 strays trotting a long the bit he hasn't yet to remove.

Although that's not what's bothering me the most, the concern is now the children, and if the dogs behaviour is getting more aggressive, that worries me. 

What has been said about his dog attacking him previously, I have absolutely no doubt that the person who told me, told nothing but the truth. It was said by him, to the person that told me, and was brought up because a few years ago she was a veterinary nurse.


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

Until the garden is cat proofed, the cats are housebound


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I agree with Cleo38.

Your neighbour sounds a truly horrible man - someone who could delight in the brutal death of an animal and the heartbreak of a child is beyond contempt, but at the same time, _your_ cat is _your_ responsibility. If he will not cat-proof his garden (and he is under no obligation to do so) then you and your other neighbours must cat-proof your own to prevent these poor cats from entering (and his argument that it only attacks strays is pathetic - strays, poor things, are entitled to safety too.

If you still want your cat to be able to roam, you and the other neighbours adjoining his garden could perhaps all put up a cat fence on the side of your garden which borders his - he will then be effectively enclosed. Perhaps you could discuss this with them.

Or you could put cat-proof fencing around your own garden, which would reduce your cat's outdoor space, but keep it safe. Or you could raise the "ordinary" fence to (say) six feet, and spike the top of that so the children would be safe.

Please don't think I'm dismissing your pain and anxiety - I'm not, but the law will not help you here - it is a dog-on-cat attack on the man's property, and he is entitled to let his dog roam anywhere he wants on his own land; and it certainly doesn't sound as though you are going to get anywhere talking to him.

I would point out, though (re "fencing him in") that if there is anywhere for cats to get in, perhaps at the front of his property, such a fence would make it even more difficult to escape from an attack (you can't fence off a border that you don't share).

The story of the dog attacking its owner os just that - a story. It may be true, it may not. How likely do you think it would be that he would keep a dog which had attacked him?

One person worth talking to would be the postman. If this dog is free 90% of the time, as you state, has the postman had any problems with it? Perhaps he refuses to deliver to that house? This would give you a bit of weight behind your argument if you contacted police etc.

The dog's change in nature isn't necessarily because the owner is encouraging it to attack cats - I had two bull terriers, totally cat-sound, until one day they were dozing in the sun at the foot of the garden fence when a cat walking along the fence missed its footing, slipped and landed on them. I'm afraid they killed it (I was washing up and saw the whole dreadful thing). After that, they regarded cats as fair game, even next door's cat which had been their friend. The day I saw them chasing Tiger was the day I knew I'd never be able to trust them again near any cat. Something similar may have happened with this dog.

My heart aches for that poor little cat and the family who now have no pet (and are probably frightened to get another in case the same happens again), and I'm sure you must feel so angry and powerless when he won't even listen to you, but he is within his rights (though he shouldn't glory in them). If he is at work all day, the dog needs access to the outside, and protecting the cats isn't your neighbour's responsibility.

I would be very concerned though that a child might of into his garden to retrieve a ball and get bitten. I suspect that one of the reasons this dog attacks isn't because it's aggressive, but because it's bored out of its skull, being on its own all day every day. The cats provide a welcome diversion from tedium

Hope you manage to get something satisfactory sorted out anyway, though it sounds like you will have to do it without the help of your neighbour.

EDIT: What type of dog is it? (Just curious)


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## Bluefluffybirmans (Jun 9, 2014)

Absolutely the fence needs raising, my small 10kg terrier cross could clear 4ft in an instant, if this dog got hold of your one of children...
Plus then you could cat proof of you wanted, I can't see any other way of keeping them safe.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Frankly, if *I* had a dog that was capable of savaging and killing some poor cat that wandered into the garden, then I would cat proof the garden!

I once lived on a street where the owner of a JRT was happy enough to let her dog chase any cat whilst on its flexi lead, even in the cats own garden, and never recoiled the flexi lead! This only stopped when the owner of a cat opened his door and booted the dog which had cornered his cat under a bush and was still trying to get it whilst the owner of the dog did nothing!

Personally, I think that if you have a dog/cat aggressive dog, then you should protect your neighbours animals for any attack. That's just me, because I have empathy for ANY animal, not just my own. You will get the 'keep your cat indoors' brigade preaching their tripe about how their cat is kept indoors, as if its the law, and show no sympathy for the poor cat that lost its life in such an horrific way.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

If you have concerns for your children where this dog is concerned I would have a word with the Police.

This man's behaviour is totally anti social and I would be very concerned about the spikes he put on a small fence when you have children.If he doesn't care about children hurting themselves on a fence then he isn't going to be bothered about a cat.

My dogs will chase other cats given half the chance but I would stop them if I saw them. For this man to get arsey and nasty over a poor cat that was killed is disgusting.

Can you speak to the housing association about his unreasonable behaviour?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> Frankly, if *I* had a dog that was capable of savaging and killing some poor cat that wandered into the garden, then I would cat proof the garden!
> 
> I once lived on a street where the owner of a JRT was happy enough to let her dog chase any cat whilst on its flexi lead, even in the cats own garden, and never recoiled the flexi lead! This only stopped when the owner of a cat opened his door and booted the dog which had cornered his cat under a bush and was still trying to get it whilst the owner of the dog did nothing!
> 
> Personally, I think that if you have a dog/cat aggressive dog, then you should protect your neighbours animals for any attack. That's just me, because I have empathy for ANY animal, not just my own. *You will get the 'keep your cat indoors' brigade preaching their tripe about how their cat is kept indoors, as if its the law, and show no sympathy for the poor cat that lost its life in such an horrific way*.


Maybe that's me then 

I have 2 outdoor cats, I let them out knowing risks. I only have 2 neighbours & my cats don't go in to their gardens (& neither has dogs). If this were not the case then it would up to me to make sure my garden was cat proofed & I would have to cover the costs of this ..... which would be alot as I have a big garden. I really do not understand cat owners who think that the saftey of their cats is down to other people 

Some people, depsite caring for animals, simply do not have enough money to cat proof their own gardens for the protection of other people's pets ... & really why should they.

I had a flock of young pheasants get in to my garden a couple of years ago ... most made it out but 2 didn't. It will probably happen again but I'm not going to make any further adjustments to the fencing ... I can't afford to.

I do not let my dogs cahse any aimal when out, & I certainly wouldn't let them gfo on to other people's property. Some dog owners wouldn't care & are irresponsible just as some cat owners are ....


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> Frankly, if *I* had a dog that was capable of savaging and killing some poor cat that wandered into the garden, then I would cat proof the garden!
> 
> I once lived on a street where the owner of a JRT was happy enough to let her dog chase any cat whilst on its flexi lead, even in the cats own garden, and never recoiled the flexi lead! This only stopped when the owner of a cat opened his door and booted the dog which had cornered his cat under a bush and was still trying to get it whilst the owner of the dog did nothing!
> 
> *Personally, I think that if you have a dog/cat aggressive dog, then you should protect your neighbours animals for any attack*. That's just me, because I have empathy for ANY animal, not just my own. You will get the 'keep your cat indoors' brigade preaching their tripe about how their cat is kept indoors, as if its the law, and show no sympathy for the poor cat that lost its life in such an horrific way.


Have to disagree with this,if outwith the dog owners property then yes it is their responsibility to have their dog "under control" but I disagree that any dog owner should have to take responsibility for a cat that comes over a fence into the dogs territory.
Cat proofing is the sensible way to go,but it is the cat owners garden that should be "cat proofed" to keep it in and safe.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

It might be worth pointing out to the man that if any of the children get hurt by his dog, he will be prosecuted. There was a change to the law recently where dog owners were previously protected if someone was "trespassing" in their garden.

Advice - Changes to the Dangerous Dogs Act - Advice for Owners | National Animal Welfare Trust


> There is a slight grey area in these changes in that if the person attacked is a burglar or trespasser your dog may not be considered dangerously out of control if it is in a building that is your private dwelling at the time of the attack. However, this does not cover incidents in your back or front garden so while the law is yet to be tested, all dog owners should ensure that all areas of their gardens where their dogs could encounter unexpected visitors are secure.


Please also teach your children not to climb fences.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

buffie said:


> Have to disagree with this,if outwith the dog owners property then yes it is their responsibility to have their dog "under control" but I disagree that any dog owner should have to take responsibility for a cat that comes over a fence into the dogs territory.
> Cat proofing is the sensible way to go,but it is the cat owners garden that should be "cat proofed" to keep it in and safe.


I know legally you are correct, but I'm with Ang2 on this one. If I had a dog that I knew would do something like that and I had the money/means then I would definitely ensure that the garden was properly enclosed so that dog cannot get out and cats/birds/kids cannot get in. I think if you know your dog has those tendencies then you have a moral obligation to do something about it if you can. Surely it is just a case of common decency and neighbourly relations?

At the same time, if I had cats and lived anywhere near this dog then I would also definitely cat proof my garden as ultimately you are responsible for the well being and safety of your own pet.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rox666 said:


> I know legally you are correct, but I'm with Ang2 on this one. If I had a dog that I knew would do something like that and I had the money/means then I would definitely ensure that the garden was properly enclosed so that dog cannot get out and cats/birds/kids cannot get in. I think if you know your dog has those tendencies then you have a moral obligation to do something about it if you can. *Surely it is just a case of common decency and neighbourly relations?*
> 
> At the same time, if I had cats and lived anywhere near this dog then I would also definitely cat proof my garden as ultimately you are responsible for the well being and safety of your own pet.


I agree but I would have thought that cat owners could also show others decency by not letting their pets tressapsss & annoy other peoples's pets 

Unfortunately after reading other similar posts I am not surprised to read that some will always blame a dog for acting on it's instincts but will excuse those of their cats  :thumbdown:

Can I ask those that think the dog owner should be cat proofing his garden ..... if you have cats have you fully enclosed your gardens to make sure small mammals & birds can't get in & be killed by your cat/s?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree but I would have thought that cat owners could also show others decency by not letting their pets tressapsss & annoy other peoples's pets
> 
> Unfortunately after reading other similar posts I am not surprised to read that some will always blame a dog for acting on it's instincts but will excuse those of their cats  :thumbdown:
> 
> Can I ask those that think the dog owner should be cat proofing his garden ..... if you have cats have you fully enclosed your gardens to make sure small mammals & birds can't get in & be killed by your cat/s?


I don't think he should cat proof his garden and the cats are their owners responsibilities but this spike fence doesn't seem very sociable at all given there are children in the area and the fence seems quite low.

If someone came to my door and said my dog had killed a cat in my own garden I wouldn't get in their face, shout and point fingers but would say....my garden, my dog, cat shouldn't have been there, very sorry for all concerned but not much more I can do.

I also wouldn't want to leave a dog known to be aggressive with access to outdoors all day long and nobody home and for that reason I would have a word with the local police or build my own fence so the spike one won't hurt my children.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I would still report this man for the attitude he has, it sounds to me as if he has encouraged the dog to chase the cats, it is very hard to keep cats in that are used to roaming but i would put up a higher fence and maybe something on top as a deterrent to the cats , to stop climbimg over
My HA say no fence should be higher than 5ft, but my neighbour put a 6ft fence up anyway, i have cats that go out, but they mainly stay in my garden, i have dogs both sides but my cats never venture into those gardens,probably the barking puts them off
I am very sorry that that your cat was badly injured and the neighbours cat killed, but really this man couldnt care less 
If he was reasonable he at least would show he was sorry it happened,


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> Frankly, if *I* had a dog that was capable of savaging and killing some poor cat that wandered into the garden, then I would cat proof the garden!
> *
> I once lived on a street where the owner of a JRT was happy enough to let her dog chase any cat whilst on its flexi lead, even in the cats own garden, and never recoiled the flexi lead! * This only stopped when the owner of a cat opened his door and booted the dog which had cornered his cat under a bush and was still trying to get it whilst the owner of the dog did nothing!
> This is shameful! It is a pity the cat owner couldn't kick the woman instead of the dog. I hope he gave her a mouthful too, and threatened her with any vet's bills.
> ...


I agree, but that protection doesn't extend to my animals having no freedom in their own garden, and my very small bank account being depleted to keep someone else's animal out.

I would NEVER allow or encourage my dog to chase another animal, but at the same time I didn't regard it as my responsibility to cat-proof my garden to stop neighbour's animals getting in.

The OP hasn't suggested that the present fence allows the dog to escape - if the dog does not or cannot jump out, then the owner needn't do anything about it - and why should he?

I think his attitude stinks, but he is within his legal rights.


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## Mum (Jul 30, 2013)

I would also be contacting the police as it does constitute threatening behaviour. Also putting spikes on a fence lower than 2.4m is deemed a nuisance and is not legal. Having a police report filed will be beneficial in you making a case with your housing association and prompt them to take action. It will also mean the RSPCA will be more likely to act following contact from police. 

Cat proofing your garden is a good idea to keep your cat safe you can raise the height of the fence and get cat proofing on the top (inclined 45 degree angle will mean cats can't escape or sit on top). It will save you a lot of heartache in the long run if you do this especially when you have children as this situation sounds potentially distressing for them seeing their cat hurt.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> I don't think he should cat proof his garden and the cats are their owners responsibilities but this spike fence doesn't seem very sociable at all given there are children in the area and the fence seems quite low.
> 
> *If someone came to my door and said my dog had killed a cat in my own garden I wouldn't get in their face, shout and point fingers but would say....my garden, my dog, cat shouldn't have been there, very sorry for all concerned but not much more I can do.*
> 
> I also wouldn't want to leave a dog known to be aggressive with access to outdoors all day long and nobody home and for that reason I would have a word with the local police or build my own fence so the spike one won't hurt my children.


This was how I felt when it happened in my garden - it was awful - I can't even describe how horrible it was, and both I and the owners (I knew where the cat belonged and had to tell them - I couldn't just let them wander the streets for weeks looking for a missing cat) were very upset, but it was a sad fact of life.

And we do not know that the dog IS aggressive - this account of the attack may be fabrication or exaggeration.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

C'mon, guys, let's not let the innie/outie debate get in the way here - there are kids potentially at risk. 

Bex, unfortunately despite your neighbour being an obnoxious cat hater, you don't have any legal rights here because just as there are no laws restricting the movement of cats (which is why they may free roam, unlike dogs), there are also no laws protecting them when they free roam. That means if your cat goes off your territory, whatever happens to is at it's own (and your own) risk, unless someone deliberately sets an animal on your cat of, course. It also means he is under no obligation to protect your cats from his dog, or take any steps to prevent cats getting in his garden, even though a responsible owner of an aggressive dog would consider it.

What is more worrying is his attitude to your children. OK, you can tell them not to go near the fence, but no four foot fence is going to keep in even a smallish dog if they are determined, and this dog has already proven it is not necessarily behaviourally stable. So you _need_ to do something on that point, and I'd be advising your neighbours on the other side(s) to do the same.

Is the fence between you and him yours? If so, I would be looking to replace it ASAP with a fence of the maximum height allowed without planning permission (usually 2 metres for rear gardens, but check first). From long experience, it's better to get proper concrete posts put in you can just slot replacement panels in to - it's more expensive initially, but lasts a lot longer, my neighbours have replaced their fence twice in the time I've had mine (under ten years!), and need to do it again! Mine is as solid as the day it went in 

If the current fence isn't yours, then you can (and should) still put a maximum height fence up, you just have to put it up alongside the current one. Provided the fence is within the height allowed by local planning laws, he can't complain.

There's some good stuff on boundary fences here:

Boundary Fences

Including some very interesting stuff about what you can and can't do with a neighbours fence - did you know that painting your side of a neighbours fence if you don't like the installation colour without their permission is classified as criminal damage? I didn't! (neon pink, anyone? :devil: Nah, I like my neighbours!)

You could also consider cat proofing your entire garden, of course, which more cat owners are doing these days. I haven't, but my garden isn't conducive to it.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Some attitudes really do amuse me. That old chestnut "what about your cats killing birds and wildlife" !!! - as said to me by one of my neighbours, who was chatting to me about how she would never have another cat because they kill too many birds. Only last week, we heard the sound of gun shots - later to find out that the same woman's husband was shooting a rat in their yard!

So what about Birds of Prey? There are plenty on this forum who delight in hunting little birds with their BOP! Plenty in the reptile forums, feeding live mice and frozen new born chicks!

Where is the cut off point? I believe that if your dog is capable of viciously slaughtering your neighbours much loved domestic pet, then it would be the decent thing to ensure it doesn't happen! I personally would want to do everything in my power to ensure it didn't happen. I certainly wouldn't be adopting the attitude seen by some on here!

And Cleo - why are you spouting about birds and wildlife? You openly confess to having two outdoor cats??????


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree but I would have thought that cat owners could also show others decency by not letting their pets tressapsss & annoy other peoples's pets


I agree with that (my cats do not free roam even though I live in a rural area) but then we are heading down the indoor/outdoor debate which would probably just derail this topic.

Putting aside the fact of whether the cats should be going in the garden, the fact is that they are and if it were my dog that I knew could and would kill a cat then I would feel obliged to do something about it because I would be horrified if my dog killed a cat just because it came in to my garden. The poor cat doesn't know that it is not their garden and not their territory. I think it is a sad state of affairs when we get to the stage of saying "well it's your cat/pet that came into my garden so it got what it deserved".

Probably an extreme extrapolation but I would also be worried about what would happen if a child got in as well if the dog (due to its illness or not) suffered from bouts of aggression.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Protect your cat from getting out... as a responsible dog owner my garden is secure, I have to ensure my dogs cannot breach their boundary. No offence but imo a roaming cat is an accident waiting to happen, whether it be run over or injured in any other way. All pet owners should be accountable for their pets regardless of the species.


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## Alisonfoy (Mar 20, 2013)

I could be missing something here, but the OP mentioned their property was owned by a Housing Association. 

If their neighbour occupies a property which is also owned by a Housing Association, this could make all the difference. Because the dog is not on the neighbour's property - it is on the Housing Association's property, which the neighbour occupies on a lease.

The terms of the lease will have certain covenants in it regarding the way in which occupiers use the property. Without seeing the lease, it's not possible to say what these might be, but I suggest that if the neighbour is also a Housing Association tenant, the OP looks carefully at his/her lease to see if the neighbour is breaking any of the terms of occupation (assuming the neighbour has a similar lease).

Housing Associations might not be that concerned about a cat's safety (unfortunately), but a vicious dog that puts children at risk is a different issue and one which may force them to act. 

If the immediate housing manager fails to act, take your complaint further up the organisation. Most Housing Associations have ASB (anti-social behaviour) specialists who are experienced at dealing with difficult tenants.

Good luck and do let us know the outcome.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> Some attitudes really do amuse me. That old chestnut "what about your cats killing birds and wildlife" !!! - as said to me by one of my neighbours, who was chatting to me about how she would never have another cat because they kill too many birds. Only last week, we heard the sound of gun shots - later to find out that the same woman's husband was shooting a rat in their yard!
> 
> So what about Birds of Prey? There are plenty on this forum who delight in hunting little birds with their BOP! Plenty in the reptile forums, feeding live mice and frozen new born chicks!
> 
> ...


Haha, so the dog 'viciously slaughtered' the cat - seriously?!! 

The dog was acting on an *instinct*, the same as a cat who chases a bird ... but that's ok for cat owners isn't it?  An instinct to chase a cat is completely different from a dog who shows aggression towards people ....

I do have outdoor cats & I accept that should they come to harm in someone elses garden then it is not that person's fault, how can it be?!

It is my duty to keep them safe. If I had a neighbour who owned a dog that was known to chase cats who entered it's garden (& this is not uncommon - most dogs would do this) then it is up to ME to make sure MY cat doesn't get hurt .....

I am amazed that so many people seem to think that the responsibility that goes with their cat stops at their back door


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> *Haha, so the dog 'viciously slaughtered' the cat - seriously?!! *
> 
> The dog was acting on an *instinct*, the same as a cat who chases a bird ... but that's ok for cat owners isn't it?
> 
> ...


Haha??????? Is it some joke to you!!!????? Instead of lording it over this thread, you might show some compassion. As my friend's cat was viciously savaged by two of her neighbours dogs - I don't find it funny at all. And yes, between them, the ripped the poor cat in half! Funny now?????


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Ang2 said:


> Haha??????? Is it some joke to you!!!????? Instead of lording it over this thread, you might show some compassion. As my friend's cat was viciously savaged by two of her neighbours dogs - I don't find it funny at all. And yes, between them, the ripped the poor cat in half! Funny now?????


Where did this happen... In her own garden??


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Guys, *PLEASE* can we keep this to the issue in hand? If you want to start an Innie/Outie/irresponsible owners thread, that's fine, but opening a can of snark on this thread is not helping the OP, who is worried about cats AND children.

Thanks you


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## ALR (Apr 16, 2014)

Gosh I'm more worried about the kids. If you're keeping the cat in at the moment, then hopefully this is a solution (albeit short-term). But what about the kids? In this hot weather, can you really control them not to go near the fence and even if they don't how can you be sure the dog won't jump through the fence to get to them? 

My leaseholder's agreement has a clause about dangerous animals. This includes animals that lives in their own yard. As long as they pose a potential danger to other people they would be considered dangerous. 

I want to be fair to the dog as well. It is normal for any dog to be territorial. When these things have gone out of hand and dogs attack neighbours, I've always felt it's the owners' fault. Not the dog's. In your case, you have an unfriendly owner so its harder to deal with this issue in an amicable way. 

I'd contact the police and I have a feeling they will relay the matter to the RSPCA which hopefully should get them moving on this - the RSPCA takes a long time to respond. It's really just a question of making the boundaries between the properties more secure so that there is no chance the dog gets into your property.


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Just because a dog attacks / chases cats does not mean that this behaviour extends to children (sorry, just had to get that out there)

Now this supposed aggression may or may not be the case, however this is something that they have heard off somebody else not something that they have witnessed, the majority of people would not keep a dog which bites them, it makes them harder to handle and control appropriately and you cannot muzzle a dog all day.

As a dog owner myself I agree that this mans attitude is disgusting, he should be able to put his point across civilly at least. However cat proofing his garden is not something that he should be obliged to do if he can even afford the expense in the first place. 

I have a dog that will go for cats, sorry, he likes to chase them away from the rabbit enclosure (and I will admit myself that I get a little annoyed at the fact that somebody elses pet is worrying mine in my own garden, if a cat got it's paws through the mesh would I be met with "sorry can't do anything, natural instinct you see? something tells me yes) he sees them as his and the garden as his own territory. Dogs have natural prey instinct, just like cats.

Perhaps this man is very annoyed at the fact that another persons animal is causing an inconvenience and encroaching on his pets ability to use its space. Maybe he even feels guilty hence the lashing out. I am not excusing his behaviour one bit by the way, just pointing out how things *could* be. As a dog owner you have to keep your dog secured in the garden or under close control when out and about, for a free roaming cat that is not the case and I will admit it can be frustrating (and that is not cat hating, I like cats and would have one if my dog wasn't so set against them, I am just realistic) 

The person who mentioned people with reptiles feeding live mice - not in the UK they don't - it's illegal you see, and no one will sell you a live mammal for the purpose of feeding a snake, they usually come from the pet shop conveniently packaged and frozen. Insects are of course another matter.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I have feral cats and house cats and 4 dogs. My dogs learned not to chase my own cats but if another cat came onto my property and my dogs could get hold of it I have no doubt in my mind that they would hurt it and possibly kill it.

My point re the spiked fence was about the spiked fence and a child climbing on it and getting hurt...even if the child was old enough to understand not to climb etc...not worth a child getting hurt.Fence is fine as long as it is safe.

If a neighbour built a fence and then covered the fence in creosote that may harm my cats, this would worry me too.Spikes on fencing hurts children.

If a child came onto my property and into where my 4 dogs would be my dogs would not hurt a child apart from rushing to get to it first and maybe knocking a child over.If my dogs are outside and on my property, I am at home too.

Just because a dog hurts cats on its own property doesn't make it a dangerous dog and a danger to children.

OP states this dog is left for long periods on its own , in the garden area and has attacked its owner in the past quite severely and also may have a form of epilepsy.

If I lived next door to this dog, I would probably be very wary of it too.If my cats went onto the neighbours property and got killed, I would be upset but thats it. If I had a neighbour like this I would keep my cats in.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

This is something that worrys me too about my cats going into a garden and a dog attacking them, at the end of the day you cant blame the dog its in his instinct isnt it with some dogs anyway.

This man sounds really horrible though especially if I understood it right that he hit his dog with a golfstick and now it has epelepsy?? I think the dog should be taken off him really. I feel sorry for the poor thing having such a evil horrible owner.

My neighbour who lives on the boundary at the bottom of my garden has a pitbull type dog, when I first saw it I was absolutely horrified, turns out that its the most gentlest dog ever, they also have children too and a cat so thankfully the dog is used to cats. At the moment the fence needs to be replaced so we just have some chicken wire up for time being deviding the gardens my cat Nemo sometimes goes in there garden and the dog just looks at him wagging his tail but I cant say I ever feel comfortable with it. However If I had a neighbour like yours I would deffinately cat proof my garden if I couldnt afford it I would take out a bank loan...You need to keep your children safe and the cats too...

Goodluck I hope you can sort something.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

The cat owners are responsible for their own cats. That is a fact. 

If you don't want to risk the lives of your cats entering a dogs garden, don't let your cats roam onto other properties. 
People can say "Oh that old chestnut" all they want, if they choose to take that risk then they will have to live with the consequences. It is that simple. 

Dogs are not the only risk to roaming cats you know  or should cars be restricted too because "cats are free spirits and need to roam wherever they choose in complete safety".

Rest assured I am not against cats, in fact I would love to have a siamese of my own one day but I can't understand this mind set, especially after seeing loads dead on roads and hearing stories of them being killed by dogs and other animals. Even being killed by some awful people.

One of my dads free roaming cats has just been killed on the road, it is an awful experience


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> Some attitudes really do amuse me. That old chestnut "what about your cats killing birds and wildlife" !!! - as said to me by one of my neighbours, who was chatting to me about how she would never have another cat because they kill too many birds. Only last week, we heard the sound of gun shots - later to find out that the same woman's husband was shooting a rat in their yard!
> 
> So what about Birds of Prey? There are plenty on this forum who delight in hunting little birds with their BOP! Plenty in the reptile forums, feeding live mice and frozen new born chicks!
> 
> ...


OP CAN ensure it doesn't happen to her cat - fence her in.


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

Is there any way you can cat proof your garden? There is a thread on here on cat proofing garden. Perhaps you can get some ideas that will suit your particular situation.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

LouiseH said:


> It might be worth pointing out to the man that if any of the children get hurt by his dog, he will be prosecuted. There was a change to the law recently where dog owners were previously protected if someone was "trespassing" in their garden.
> 
> Advice - Changes to the Dangerous Dogs Act - Advice for Owners | National Animal Welfare Trust
> 
> Please also teach your children not to climb fences.


Section 3 of the Act applies to every single dog owner in England and Wales. Under this section, it is a criminal offence for the person in charge of the dog to allow it to be 'dangerously out of control' in a public place.

A dog doesn't have to bite to be deemed dangerous in the eyes of the law

Generally if a dog bites a person, it will be presumed to have been 'dangerously out of control', however *even if the dog does not bite, but gives the person grounds to feel that the dog may injure them, the law still applie*s.

Not many dog owners are aware of this, and it is important to hold that thought when looking at the changes.

Thanks Dorrit - I find this bit of the Act a bit worrying! I've met quite a few people in my time who assume that because my dog is a - er - dog, then they have groups to think it will injure them and start shouting and/or screeching at the sight of it.

And while I welcome harsher penalties for those people who allow dogs to savage visitors to their homes as in the case of that poor little teenage girl who was killed by a pack of badly-kept dogs), I think that penalties for animal abuse should be increased as well - and that the courts should hand a few harsh penalties out instead of pussyfooting around with suspended sentences. People need protection, but so do animals, and they have no voice of their own.


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## Idalia (May 14, 2014)

We do only have the OP's side of this story... 
What is attracting the cats to a garden where there is an unfriendly dog?
One of my dogs is not exactly friendly to wandering neighbourhood cats, but they seem to realise this (cats aren't stupid) and don't venture into my garden, thank goodness.
I would want to keep my cats and children safe, perhaps the OP could ask if the neighbour would contribute to replacing the existing fence with something more effective.
My garden is fenced to 6' all round, IMHO it's not my responsibility to keep other animals out, it is my responsibility to keep my animals safe.
It is not unusual for a dog who is having a fit to bite anyone who touches it especially near it's mouth, perhaps this is why the dog bit it's owner. This happened to a friend of mine who's dog had a seizure whilst it was sleeping next to her and she tried to move her hand away from the dog's head.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Haha??????? Is it some joke to you!!!????? Instead of lording it over this thread, you might show some compassion. As my friend's cat was viciously savaged by two of her neighbours dogs - I don't find it funny at all. And yes, between them, the ripped the poor cat in half! Funny now?????


I didn't read it that way at all. I think she was pointing out the disconnect between the perceptions of motivations in cats and dogs.

People who don't have dogs and think of themselves as "cat people" often view dogs as dangerous creatures who kill for sport. Just as some "dog people" who don't like cats think that cats are evil little torturers who also kill for sport.

I think I have enough of each species to say that there's a little bit of nature and nurture in the upbringing of each. Dogs are very sensitive to their owners' cues and I think will learn certain aggressions from them, while at the same time, as with Lostbear's(?) dogs, there are just unfortunate moments when instinct takes over in the heat of the moment. This could be where breed tendencies will take over and dogs bred for hunting will snap whereas a dog bred for retrieving might instead hold with a soft mouth.

That said--my dog (a corgi, so a herder) yesterday chased a ground hog in our back garden. When the groundhog stopped, Kelso tried to play with it :crazy:.

Anyway, this is a digression---I actually did have something to add on topic. On to another message.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Idalia said:


> We do only have the OP's side of this story...
> What is attracting the cats to a garden where there is an unfriendly dog?
> One of my dogs is not exactly friendly to wandering neighbourhood cats, but they seem to realise this (cats aren't stupid) and don't venture into my garden, thank goodness.


I believe the OP said the vet said the injury patterns indicated both cats had been grabbed from below when they were attacked, implying the most likely scenario was the cat was walking along the top of fence and the dog had jumped up and grabbed them. My Charlie-girl will walk the top of my fence quite happily past barking dogs, but then again my fence is very tall so she is relatively safe. And even cats can slip and fall.

To my mind the problem is not so much what has happened so far (which is awful in itself) but the dismissive attitude of the dog owner, particularly regarding the possibility of children being hurt.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok, I may have read this wrong, but did I understand that the fence is yours Bex, and that the neighbour put spikes on your fence? Did he just do this without your permission?

And how old are your children? Are they so little that they can't be taught reliably not to climb fences? I'm guessing they can't be all that young if they are big enough to worry about scaling a 4' fence.

If the fence is indeed yours, then do as many have suggested--either put in a higher fence, or as well as you can cat proof the one you have. A big tall privacy fence sounds absolutely ideal in your situation. You could completely shut out all sight of the nasty man next door, protect your kids and cats, and there'd only be his voice to annoy you . As for catproofing, I've seen situations where people have entended their existing fence with wooden stakes or bamboo poles (pvc would work really well for this too) and leaned the top 1' or so in toward their garden at an angle. They've put netting on it so only the most agile of cats could climb up and over. This doesn't always prevent other cats from coming in, but it would protect your cats and children and the dog certainly wouldn't be leaping in your garden either. Any balls the kids were playing with would be kept in your garden as well. And I don't think the costs are very high for this--netting is cheap, and then there's just the wood or bamboo and fasteners. It doesn't have to look awful either. 

If the dog is epileptic, I don't think it's likely to have a seizure and lose control in an aggressive way. I had an epileptic dog as a child and he just lost all control in a limp way while it happened. He was certainly was in no condition to flail about snapping. If the neighbour's dog is having "moments" of aggression, there's something else amiss there. Equally disturbing is this is the case, but I think this might be one part urban legend combined with a bad owner who encourages his dog to be aggressive. 

Short of moving away from this awful man, the best recourse is to just protect what's yours and try to make your home a safe and private oasis.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> Haha??????? Is it some joke to you!!!????? Instead of lording it over this thread, you might show some compassion. As my friend's cat was viciously savaged by two of her neighbours dogs - I don't find it funny at all. And yes, between them, the ripped the poor cat in half! Funny now?????


No, it is your choice of words I find amusing 

I am not 'lording it over' in this thread but trying to point out that cat owners (me being one as well!) have to take responsibility for their pets.

If you know a neighbour to have a dog that may chase & hurt your cat & you know your cat is likely to go in to that garden *then take action & do something to ensure the safety of your pet *- do not moan about the dog ..... it really is that simple!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> > If I had a neighbour like this I would keep my cats in.
> 
> 
> If I had a neighbour like that I would move!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> I believe the OP said the vet said the injury patterns indicated both cats had been grabbed from below when they were attacked, implying the most likely scenario was the cat was walking along the top of fence and the dog had jumped up and grabbed them. My Charlie-girl will walk the top of my fence quite happily past barking dogs, but then again my fence is very tall so she is relatively safe. And even cats can slip and fall.
> 
> To my mind the problem is not so much what has happened so far (which is awful in itself) but the dismissive attitude of the dog owner, particularly regarding the possibility of children being hurt.


This is what my first cat, Cleo used to do & wind up next doors dog. He was quite elderly & used to get very het up at her constantly walking up & down the fence.

His owners explained to my mum (I was school age at the time - many years ago!) what was happening as we had no idea, so she put up some trellis so Cleo couldn't climb that section of fence or wind the dog up ... problem solved


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Let me summarize....

The houses, and therefore the fences, are owned by a housing corporation.

The fence is low enough for the dog to jump up, and possibly over.

The dog is left on his own for long periods of time, during which he is in the garden unsupervised.

A cat that was NOT in the neighbour's garden, but ON THE FENCE separating the cat owner's garden from the dog owner's garden.

Said cat was grabbed by the dog while sitting or walking on the fence of his own garden, pulled down into the dog owner's garden and savaged by the dog.

A nurse who talked to the dog owner after he was attacked by his own dog was told that the dog had to be deterred from doing its owner further injury by hitting it with a club, and that the dog supposedly suffered a neurological injury (causing epilesy) from this. (I do not doubt this story for a minute, given its source, though I do worry the nurse may get into trouble because she relayed confidential information)

The cat owner has known the dog for a long time and states it never used to be aggressive towards cats and the aggression issues are getting worse.

The cat owner states children will come near the fence and stroke their cat while it is on the fence. The fear the dog may injure a child is therefore realistic.

It seems to me that leaving a dog alone and unattended for such prolonged periods of time amounts to neglect and may well be an issue in its behaviour. I wonder if, in the past, when the dog was less aggressive, he was being paid proper attention to and wasn't left alone as much. If the deterioration of the dog's behaviour coincides with an increasing absence of the owners, you would have a strong case for neglect.

Also, you cannot demand the cat owner restricts his children's movements within their own garden and have them stay away from the fence separating the gardens. It is the dog owner's responsibility to ensure the dog cannot do harm to anyone on the other side of the fence, or even touching the fence, as this fence is part of their garden as much as it is of the neighbour's.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

I hope that some way you will be able to sort your fencing out and keep your kiddies and cats safe.
I do feel sorry for the stray cats that get into this garden or any other animal.
They wouldn't stand a chance

I have a cat proof garden and I am well aware that Baby birds might have a problem flying out when they are just learning. It is only in the spring anfd early Summer. So while I am at home I make sure that everything is Ok in the garden.


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> Haha, so the dog 'viciously slaughtered' the cat - seriously?!!
> 
> The dog was acting on an *instinct*, the same as a cat who chases a bird ... but that's ok for cat owners isn't it?  An instinct to chase a cat is completely different from a dog who shows aggression towards people ....
> 
> ...


I find it quite amusing that some people who have liked this post were saying in a thread recently that people should keep their cats inside because they kill birds. It doesn't work the other way round though, does it? Or does the logic only work one way?

PS this is not really aimed at the Cleo but some of the people liking this thread.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Julie100uk said:


> I find it quite amusing that some people who have liked this post were saying in a thread recently that people should keep their cats inside because they kill birds. It doesn't work the other way round though, does it? Or does the logic only work one way?
> 
> PS this is not really aimed at the Cleo but some of the people liking this thread.


I didn't see who liked it! 

I understand what you mean but what I was trying to emphasise was a dog that attacks a cat is not viscious or aggressive, it it acting on instinct, the same as cats so when they hunt/kill animals.

I have a problems with cat owners who justify their cat's 'murderous' actions as natural but will negatively label a dog who also acts on instinct.

I also do not think it is wise to listen to other peoples opinions about a dogs behaviour ..... people can misinterpret behaviours unless they truly know the dog or witnessed an incident.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

A dog can be taught not to chase cats, just like a dog can be taught not to jump up at people. This is part of what the law defines as having a dog under control.

We have people letting their dogs run loose in the park, which is allowed and I do not have a problem with it at all. What I do have a problem with, is that these people do not have their dogs under control. When they are running and playing, or chasing other animals, they will not come back to them when called.

The owners seem to consider this normal, but there is a cycling path going through the park as well, so what if the dog is chasing another dog, a cat or a rabbit, or even a rat (there are loads of rabbits and rats in the park, as well as ducks) and runs into a cyclist???

To me there is no difference, it is a dog's instinct to chase, but it is also a dog's instinct to heed the alpha dog's lead. So the owner should have proper control, act like the alpha dog and be able to call the dog back. And indeed DO call the dog back when it is chasing something it shouldn't or where it shouldn't.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> Let me summarize....
> 
> A cat that was NOT in the neighbour's garden, but ON THE FENCE separating the cat owner's garden from the dog owner's garden.
> 
> Said cat was grabbed by the dog while sitting or walking on the fence of his own garden, pulled down into the dog owner's garden and savaged by the dog.


As I understood it, the cat's injuries were consistent with it having been grabbed from below - this could mean that the cat was running through th garden and leaping up the fence when the dog caught it - it does not necessarily mean they the dog grabbed to cat off the fence (I would think most cats would have the sense to jump off the other way if a dog approached them in this situation).

There has been nothing to suggest that the dog has even attempted to jump out of its own garden, not (other than anecdote) that it is aggressive rather than over-excited. (Though I accept that an over-excited dog can do a lot of damage).

If OP just cat proofs his/her own property, then their cats will be safe, and the fence will be high enough for their kids not to clamber over either.

I think the neighbour is a toe-rag from what we have been told, but we don't know what sort of attitude the cat's owner (who will have been very upset) went over with - he may have been aggressive or threatening.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

And clearly the owner has no control over his dog's actions if he's just leaving it outside all day while he's away at work. I think you're onto something about the change in behavior being tied to inattention/lack of care. Bored dogs are destructive dogs. They chew up things, they'll chase things, they'll get into all sorts of things they know from training they shouldn't. And the owner sounds like a most aggressive man himself, so I'm not surprised that the dog would be moving to a more aggressive stance in its boredom.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> And clearly the owner has no control over his dog's actions if he's just leaving it outside all day while he's away at work. I think you're onto something about the change in behavior being tied to inattention/lack of care. * Bored dogs are destructive dogs. They chew up things, they'll chase things, they'll get into all sorts of things they know from training they shouldn't.* And the owner sounds like a most aggressive man himself, so I'm not surprised that the dog would be moving to a more aggressive stance in its boredom.


This is what I suggested.

Wonder what has happened to OP.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

lostbear said:


> This is what I suggested.
> 
> Wonder what has happened to OP.


Hopefully she's off reading up on how to cat proof her garden.

The neighbour sounds totally unreasonable so, short of moving away, I think the only way to deal with him is to block him out and block the cats in. Often the neighbours you can't see are the best kind


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Often the neighbours you can't see are the best kind


It's very true that good fences make good neighbours


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> To me there is no difference, it is a dog's instinct to chase, but it is also a dog's instinct to heed the alpha dog's lead. So the owner should have proper control, act like the alpha dog and be able to call the dog back. And indeed DO call the dog back when it is chasing something it shouldn't or where it shouldn't.


Dogs don't form packs, so they can't have a pack leader or alpha, that's a wolf. Dogs also know that people are not wolves or dogs. Sorry for picking up this bit but I think some things are important to point out.

It is also very difficult to call even the most well trained dog off a chase if it has high prey drive, they go into "hunt" mode and sometimes seem deaf to all outside influences. For some dogs this means very careful planning and only being allowed off lead in secure areas because some dogs will not heed a re call in this mind set.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Dogs are pack animals. I really don't know where this modern misconception comes from that they have evolved into not-pack animals. They haven't, they always were pack animals and they still are. People who say dogs are not pack animals because when left to fend for themselves, they do not naturally organize into packs, simply failed to pay proper attention to natural processes and the influence of unnatural circumstances..

The reason wild dogs do not FORM packs is that dog packs, just like wolf packs, are predominantly family groups.
An existing pack may accept a lone animal, especially a female, in, but a pack will not form out of the blue. 

A male and one or two bitches with a litter of pups (especially if sired by this male), when left to themselves, WILL form a pack, function as a pack and develop as a pack. Other dogs may join the pack, but the family group will be at the centre of it


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> It's very true that good fences make good neighbours


Indeed--Frost was on to something


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

My own thoughts are that the man has done everything he can, his dog is secure in his garden. 

I think the guy's attitude is disgusting, even though he may not like cats he should respect that some do and that their pet is just as important to them as his dog is to him.

tbh I wouldn't have approached the man about my cat, the incident isn't his fault. If he was a caring man, he would have approached the cat owner.

It doesn't necessarily follow that a DA dog or a dog with a high prey drive will bite or attack a person but tbh if I lived next door I wouldn't wait and see, because then its too late. I would secure my garden so the children couldn't gain access to the dog.

A cats is cat and if allowed to roam will increases the risk of the cat walking into serious trouble, with anything from a dog to a car and anything in between. It doesn't make it right but its a fact.

I really do feel for people who have lost their cats through such horrific incidents.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> And clearly the owner has no control over his dog's actions if he's just leaving it outside all day while he's away at work. I think you're onto something about the change in behavior being tied to inattention/lack of care. Bored dogs are destructive dogs. They chew up things, they'll chase things, they'll get into all sorts of things they know from training they shouldn't. And the owner sounds like a most aggressive man himself, so I'm not surprised that the dog would be moving to a more aggressive stance in its boredom.


I have a very calm Bullmastiff. Can walk her through a field with livestock in off lead and she will not leave my side. If something moves suddenly, she looks and then carries on whatever we were doing.

3 weeks ago, I had to bring a single cow indoors in a stable in my enclosed yard at the back of my house.Had cows longer than we have had the dog.

Yesterday I walked with my dog and went down my field and checked the horses. Came back and walked to my back door leaving the dog in the yard. The cow was looking over the stable door and watching the world go bay, dog totally ignoring the cow. As I shut my back door, dog turned from ignoring the cow to running at the stable door and jumping up trying to bite the cows face.I opened the back door as dog was jumping up and shouted Oi! Dog stopped, tail between legs, head down and slowly moved away from the cow. I shut the door slowly and the dog repeated her behaviour.

I brought the dog in and have moved the cow to another stable so the dog can't do this.

My point is...my dog is very obedient when I am with her but as soon as my back is turned who knows what she could get up to when she clearly knows and understands I don't want her to behave in this way.

Going off this behaviour I would expect her to do the same to a strange cat...and after seeing her do this, I would wonder what would happen to my own cats if I was not out and about but the dog was. If I am with her, she completely ignores cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The relevant part of the change in the law for most dog owners is the inclusion of their own private land, including both back and front gardens. In this particular situation I'd say the owner would claim he had tried to take measures to ensure both children (and cats) could not access the space where the dog might be. The OP is annoyed that he only put security spikes on those parts of the fence bordering neighbours with children and I'm struggling to see how that wouldn't be a point in his defence.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I have not read the whole thread however the changes in the DDA will not affect how the law currently stands on dogs attacking cats in gardens.

One of the reasons you do not have to report an RTA involving a cat is that the law recognises that cats are not under control.

Quite frankly if the cat owner cannot control their cat from entering the garden of a neighbour I fail to see how they can possibly complain about the behaviour of A N Other animal in their OWN GARDEN and property.

The law does not extend to dog attacks on cats in this scenario.

Yet another case of someone blaming someone else for their own failures.

Whilst I do not condone the "alleged" attitude of the dog owner, I am afraid I cannot condone the attitude of the cat owner(s).

If you want to keep your cats safe then take the appropriate measures.


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## Alisonfoy (Mar 20, 2013)

Smokeybear - one of the issues here however, is that this is possibly not the neighbour's property. If the property is owned by a Housing Association, he will be a tenant (as well as a nightmare neighbour) and will therefore be bound by the terms of his lease. 

This will almost certainly contain provisions regarding animals and anti-social behaviour.

I hope the OP is still reading this thread and follows up in accordance with my previous comment.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Yet another case of someone blaming someone else for their own failures.
> 
> Whilst I do not condone the "alleged" attitude of the dog owner, I am afraid I cannot condone the attitude of the cat owner(s).


I think you are being rather harsh. If you read the whole thread you will see that the OP is actually very open to finding a solution that suits all.

I too hope the OP comes back but with comments like these I doubt it :001_unsure:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> Dogs are pack animals. I really don't know where this modern misconception comes from that they have evolved into not-pack animals. They haven't, they always were pack animals and they still are. People who say dogs are not pack animals because when left to fend for themselves, they do not naturally organize into packs, simply failed to pay proper attention to natural processes and the influence of unnatural circumstances..
> 
> The reason wild dogs do not FORM packs is that dog packs, just like wolf packs, are predominantly family groups.
> An existing pack may accept a lone animal, especially a female, in, but a pack will not form out of the blue.
> ...


De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Domestic dogs are not pack animals. Feral dogs do not form packs, instead they have alliances around resources, but even if they were, they do not see humans as dogs..Ergo, humans can never be the alpha, head honcho or whatever word you want to use.

Cats chase, dogs chase. It is all natural instinct 

ETA: My dog lives with a cat, who he now knows he is not allowed to chase...That does not extend to outside cats and I have to be very watchful if walking in a built up area.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Sorry I haven't read the previous 66 responses, but as the 4' fence belongs to the OP, then my first priority would be to replace it with a 6' one and cat proof the garden. As for the kids climbing on the fence - they is easy to stop. 

I can confirm those those spikey strips will not stop cats, I bought them and put 3 rows of them on the edge of my shed roof to keep my two away from the edge and as it isn't they far from the fence line - they both ignore them and both stand and lie on them


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Protect your animals. Put up a fence. How hard is that!


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Protect your animals. Put up a fence. How hard is that!


It depends on people's circumstances, the OP states that the house next door is housing association (so theirs may be) so she may have restrictions placed upon her. Also, you don't know what their financial situation is. Perhaps a little more understanding and a little less judgmental would be appreciated?


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> I think you are being rather harsh. If you read the whole thread you will see that the OP is actually very open to finding a solution that suits all.
> 
> I too hope the OP comes back but with comments like these I doubt it :001_unsure:


I agree, some people are way too harsh.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article
> 
> Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> 
> ...


Thank you, was about to retrieve some articles and now I dont have to 
My dogs are the same way. I have taught them not to chase or kill our cats (and the darned rooster) but any other cat or fowl is fair game as far as theyre concerned. 
To be clear, that doesnt mean my dogs go around killing cats. My dogs dont go outside unattended, and if they give chase and I dont want them to, they have a recall that is reliable even in that sort of situation. Though if I had a fenced yard and a cat were to materialize in the yard and the dogs noticed before I did, I cant vouch for that cats safety.

I dont think you can change a dogs nature. IOW youre not going to train the chase out of a dog. You can manage the behavior, but the desire is not going to go away. And frankly the expectation that dogs need to be trained and managed but cats do not still takes me aback.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

StormyThai - very interesting articles - thank you for posting the links. It seems the theory of how to train dogs the right way is becoming more similar to the way to train cats i.e. through repetition and positive reinforcement. 

Also that deference is a two way street, and humans should be prepared to defer to their dog companions sometimes, just as those of us who have cat companions defer to their wishes at times.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Thank you, was about to retrieve some articles and now I dont have to
> My dogs are the same way. I have taught them not to chase or kill our cats (and the darned rooster) but any other cat or fowl is fair game as far as theyre concerned.
> To be clear, that doesnt mean my dogs go around killing cats. My dogs dont go outside unattended, and if they give chase and I dont want them to, they have a recall that is reliable even in that sort of situation. Though if I had a fenced yard and a cat were to materialize in the yard and the dogs noticed before I did, I cant vouch for that cats safety.
> 
> I dont think you can change a dogs nature. IOW youre not going to train the chase out of a dog. You can manage the behavior, but the desire is not going to go away. And frankly the expectation that dogs need to be trained and managed but cats do not still takes me aback.


This was my point too. As soon as my back was turned, dog was up to no good. My dogs are not free roaming but are left out in this yard area only when someone is home either inside or out.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Julie100uk said:


> It depends on people's circumstances, the OP states that the house next door is housing association (so theirs may be) so she may have restrictions placed upon her. Also, you don't know what their financial situation is. Perhaps a little more understanding and a little less judgmental would be appreciated?


Judgemental much! A fence is not a permanent structure so anyone can erect one. If you had a child and lived next to a road you wouldn`t faff about worrying about the height of the fence - you`d bang another up fast! 
It isn`t expensive, or difficult. Why go on a forum when the solution is to pop down to B&Q?


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Why go on a forum when the solution is to pop down to B&Q?


Sorry but this comment made me laugh :lol:


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

Having read through all the replies to my original post , I think I need to clarify a few things...

Firstly (and this I thing is the big one), I have not at any point given complete Blaim to the dog or it's owner. It has been understood right from the start that our cats free roam outside, I know the risks. I am not an unresponsible pet owner, and I resent the comment that suggest otherwise. We have always been aware that there is a dog in that garden... That up until recently been ok with other animals entering their garden. I have seen this myself!! I did not, and neither did my neighbour, go round to this mans house being verbally aggressive or anything like that, but when I have a man centimetres away from my face point in a key at me, forgive me for raising my voice. Also, the concern about my children climbing the fence (they don't), but when the neighbour tells me point blank that my kids shouldn't have their hands on the fence, I think I have every right to get worried!! As I have previously stated, these houses are housing association, and as such I can't put higher fences up (already asked). It has now been passed onto the community safety team as they also believe that there are potential (might be a slim one, but should I risk it) safety issues. All cats are now safely inside, and will continue to stay inside until both myself and the housing association can come up with a suitable solution to cat proofing the garden. If this is not possible, then they will stay as house cats. The issue I made with the spike is simple, they were on a 4 for fence, well within easy reach of children. They also did not stop cats entering his garden for 2 reasons... The cats can walk along them anyway and he knows this, and also because he only put them on the side that joins to our garden and my neighbours, leaving 2 other sides t his garden completely left open. 

Again I will say that at no point have I completely given them full blame, but at the same time I do believe that leaving a dog with severe health problems for extremely long periods of time every day is unhealthy and unfair on the dog. I do believe there is the potential there or boredom and destructive behaviour.

I am doing everything I can to ensure that my children and cats are safe. I might be jumping the gun, but I would rather prevent something happening, them have it actually happen.


Might I also add, that I can well understand why so many people post and then don't come back. Some post have been uncalled for and down right rude. I asked for advice, not to be gunned down.


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

And please excuse the typos, fast typing on my phone never ends well!

Also, a big thankyou to the people that have given good constructive advice !!


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Judgemental much! A fence is not a permanent structure so anyone can erect one. If you had a child and lived next to a road you wouldn`t faff about worrying about the height of the fence - you`d bang another up fast!
> It isn`t expensive, or difficult. Why go on a forum when the solution is to pop down to B&Q?


See the update post from OP - as I said, your original post was judgmental.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Judgemental much! A fence is not a permanent structure so anyone can erect one. If you had a child and lived next to a road you wouldn`t faff about worrying about the height of the fence - you`d bang another up fast!
> It isn`t expensive, or difficult. Why go on a forum when the solution is to pop down to B&Q?


The "why go on a forum when the solution is ..... " could be used for an awful lot of posts on here, many of which are very self indulgent.

Hopefully the op will speak to the housing association - and the housing association can sort out a taller fence.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm glad you got the housing association involved. Hopefully they can help you find a solution.
But most of all this guy will now be on their radar which is a good thing if anything else happens.
Good luck


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## Julie100uk (Oct 10, 2013)

oooBEXooo said:


> Having read through all the replies to my original post , I think I need to clarify a few things...
> 
> Firstly (and this I thing is the big one), I have not at any point given complete Blaim to the dog or it's owner. It has been understood right from the start that our cats free roam outside, I know the risks. I am not an unresponsible pet owner, and I resent the comment that suggest otherwise. We have always been aware that there is a dog in that garden... That up until recently been ok with other animals entering their garden. I have seen this myself!! I did not, and neither did my neighbour, go round to this mans house being verbally aggressive or anything like that, but when I have a man centimetres away from my face point in a key at me, forgive me for raising my voice. Also, the concern about my children climbing the fence (they don't), but when the neighbour tells me point blank that my kids shouldn't have their hands on the fence, I think I have every right to get worried!! As I have previously stated, these houses are housing association, and as such I can't put higher fences up (already asked). It has now been passed onto the community safety team as they also believe that there are potential (might be a slim one, but should I risk it) safety issues. All cats are now safely inside, and will continue to stay inside until both myself and the housing association can come up with a suitable solution to cat proofing the garden. If this is not possible, then they will stay as house cats. The issue I made with the spike is simple, they were on a 4 for fence, well within easy reach of children. They also did not stop cats entering his garden for 2 reasons... The cats can walk along them anyway and he knows this, and also because he only put them on the side that joins to our garden and my neighbours, leaving 2 other sides t his garden completely left open.
> 
> ...


I'm so pleased you returned as there are some lovely people in this forum, who know a lot of stuff about a lot of things! I hope you reach a safe and happy resolution for you and your cat. I'd be really interested to hear what happens, it may help someone else.


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

I should know more tomorrow after I've spoken to the community safety people again  it really doesn't help that this 'man' is still laughing and joking about it to anyone that will listen!! Makes my bloody boil!!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I really do not understand cat owners who think that the saftey of their cats is down to other people
> 
> Some people, depsite caring for animals, simply do not have enough money to cat proof their own gardens for the protection of other people's pets ... & really why should they.


^^^ this



oooBEXooo said:


> The issue I made with the spike is simple, they were on a 4 for fence, well within easy reach of children. They also did not stop cats entering his garden for 2 reasons... The cats can walk along them anyway and he knows this, and also because he only put them on the side that joins to our garden and my neighbours, leaving 2 other sides t his garden completely left open.


Sorry (and I'm really not 'having a go') but from the above it still reads like you're expecting him to cat-proof his garden ..... he made an effort to put up some cat proofing - and appears to have had loads of complaints about it so to be quite blunt, no wonder he's not finished putting more up around the rest of the fence, or bothering.

At the end of the day, it isn't HIS responsibility to keep YOUR (and others) cats out of HIS garden I'm afraid ........


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## oooBEXooo (Jul 18, 2014)

I haven't said that at any point, and I do not expect him to. If you read further down, I do say that I am working with the housing association to come to a solution about cat proofing MY garden, not his.

And when I asked him if he planned on putting spikes along the rest of the fences, he said no as cats do not come that way... Well they do, and I see it regularly.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Judgemental much! A fence is not a permanent structure so anyone can erect one. If you had a child and lived next to a road you wouldn`t faff about worrying about the height of the fence - you`d bang another up fast!
> It isn`t expensive, or difficult. Why go on a forum when the solution is to pop down to B&Q?


First af all, fencing isnt cheap, plus you need concrte and posts, expensive if you have a lot of area to fence off, secondly, the op may not be allowed a fence over 5ft, i am in a HA house and the fences are not supposed to be higher than that, although my neighbours fence bordering on my garden is 6ft, but because of the way these houses are built,cant be seen from the road to the back gardens
I have trained my cats to go to the back door,they never attempt to go out the front, and my back garden is very enclosed, so faily safe,neighbour has a dog,


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

oooBEXooo said:


> I should know more tomorrow after I've spoken to the community safety people again  it really doesn't help that this 'man' is still laughing and joking about it to anyone that will listen!! Makes my bloody boil!!


Which is also something you should report, as it might be a sign he actually enjoys his dog being aggressive towards neighbours, and he might even be stimulating such behaviour.
At the very least, it proves he is not planning to actively try and prevent further mishaps.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Judgemental much! A fence is not a permanent structure so anyone can erect one. If you had a child and lived next to a road you wouldn`t faff about worrying about the height of the fence - you`d bang another up fast!
> *It isn`t expensive, or difficult.* Why go on a forum when the solution is to pop down to B&Q?


Maybe not for you - others may not have your money or DIY abilities. I had my garden fenced (properly with concrete posts) a few years ago, just one side and the back. Cost over £2,000 even though my garden isn't huge, and that was with a builder friend doing it for me. And no, doing it myself was not an option. Still woudn't be.

True, a fence doesn't _have_ to be that expensive. But the neighbours are about to redo the fence on the other side of my garden for the third time since I had mine installed, and mine is as good as the day it went in.  Plus if you are trying to provide a solid boundary between your kids and a known aggressive dog, you'd want it to be very solid and last!

With a housing association property, there are often strict restrictions on what you can and can't do - they may not be allowed to install a fence without permission. Looking at the OPs follow up post, they can't have a fence over 4ft high, so going down B&Q wouldn't achieve anything extra anyway.

And we're not talking about a child next to a road (where a 4ft fence would be absolutely fine, incidentally, as kids can't jump like dogs and cats can  ), we're talking about children next to a garden where there is a potentialy dangerous-to-childrens-hands dog where the owner not only doesn't care that his dog has attacked other animals, but actually seems proud of it - to the extent he sees telling parents their children had better keep their hands off his fence as something to smirk about.

Bex, I'm glad you came back, and I'm glad the HA are taking this seriously - please report to the H&S team that the man is regularly boasting about his dog's aggression, as that should be taken into account.

Unfortunately, if you can't have over 4ft fences no matter what, then cat proofing your garden may be difficult due to the athletic abilities of cats, but I do hope some suitable solution can be found


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Maybe not for you - others may not have your money or DIY abilities. I had my garden fenced (properly with concrete posts) a few years ago, just one side and the back. Cost over £2,000 even though my garden isn't huge, and that was with a builder friend doing it for me. And no, doing it myself was not an option. Still woudn't be.
> 
> True, a fence doesn't _have_ to be that expensive. But the neighbours are about to redo the fence on the other side of my garden for the third time since I had mine installed, and mine is as good as the day it went in.  Plus if you are trying to provide a solid boundary between your kids and a known aggressive dog, you'd want it to be very solid and last!
> 
> ...


Exactly that is why we have just got some chicken wire up at the bottom of our garden along our neighbours border temporarily as old fence fell down, just cant afford all this money at once so are saving frantically to get it sorted and put a good strong fence up there using concrete and clay.

OP..so glad to read you are getting things sorted at last...goodluck with it all.


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