# Extinction rebellion



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47974244

Police officers must use the "full force of the law" when dealing with Extinction Rebellion protesters in London, the home secretary has said.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118647837091299328
Nice one !


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## MilleD

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47974244
> 
> Police officers must use the "full force of the law" when dealing with Extinction Rebellion protesters in London, the home secretary has said.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118647837091299328
> Nice one !


They are apparently planning on 'shutting down Heathrow'

I do hope none of them have ever used an aeroplane to get somewhere.


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## Elles

I don’t think they agree with all the planes. If we carry on as we are, there’ll be no roads, cars, planes, or people wanting to get to work. I’d be more concerned about emergency services tbh. Hopefully they won’t keep it up too long and government bodies will start to take notice.


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## MilleD

Elles said:


> I don't think they agree with all the planes. If we carry on as we are, there'll be no roads, cars, planes, or people wanting to get to work. I'd be more concerned about emergency services tbh. Hopefully they won't keep it up too long and government bodies will start to take notice.


In the meantime, the only people they upset is the man on the street. Which I don't agree with I'm afraid.

I've tried to listen to that woman who is the co-founder. Wow, is that someone who has absolutely nothing to say and just rides the coat tails of others.

I wish I could do that in my work....


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## Elles

MilleD said:


> In the meantime, the only people they upset is the man on the street. Which I don't agree with I'm afraid.
> 
> I've tried to listen to that woman who is the co-founder. Wow, is that someone who has absolutely nothing to say and just rides the coat tails of others.
> 
> I wish I could do that in my work....


I don't really see what else they can do. Maybe the man in the street should take notice, join them and do something about it themselves. I hope it spreads worldwide and governments put more into tech that improves matters and start to set an example themselves and the large corps start to think there's actually money in it.

I'm a bit of a rebel myself. Pass the superglue, but only the vegan version.


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## Rafa

A peaceful protest is one thing but causing major disruption in a City, preventing people from going about their daily lives and planning to attempt to bring an airport to a halt is not peaceful.

Nobody should be allowed to take the law into their own hands, IMO.


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## MilleD

Elles said:


> I don't really see what else they can do. Maybe the man in the street should take notice, join them and do something about it themselves. I hope it spreads worldwide and governments put more into tech that improves matters and start to set an example themselves and the large corps start to think there's actually money in it.
> 
> I'm a bit of a rebel myself. Pass the superglue, but only the vegan version.


Yeah, that Gail Bradbrook or whatever her name is isn't vegan. She says it doesn't agree with her apparently 

Plus, how can the man in the street join them when most of them have proper jobs they have to go to. She can draw a salary from whichever 'cause' she is protesting at the time I guess.


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## Elles

It is peaceful. It needs to be extreme to get noticed. No one notices people marching with placards these days. They notice this. No, most of them aren’t vegan and they should be. Ideal opportunity to give a captive (superglued) audience the information about how if they really care about it, they need to go plant based.

This is still better than scaring kids and giving them days off school. Pretend it’s snowing.


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## PawsOnMe

Didn't they try to stop the tube? Surely stopping public transport isnt what they should be doing instead trying to get people to choose public transport or green transport over using their cars? 

It's a bit of a shambles tbh, smashing windows and vandalizing buildings isn't the way to do it.


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## Elles

MilleD said:


> Yeah, that Gail Bradbrook or whatever her name is isn't vegan. She says it doesn't agree with her apparently
> 
> Plus, how can the man in the street join them when most of them have proper jobs they have to go to. She can draw a salary from whichever 'cause' she is protesting at the time I guess.


It's bank holiday weekend


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## Lurcherlad

PawsOnMe said:


> Didn't they try to stop the tube? Surely stopping public transport isnt what they should be doing instead trying to get people to choose public transport or green transport over using their cars?
> 
> It's a bit of a shambles tbh, smashing windows and vandalizing buildings isn't the way to do it.


Indeed.

They will lose public sympathy behaving in this way imo.

It's coming across to me more as "rent a mob" rather than an intelligent protest given the disruption and vandalism.

The cost of policing, losses to transport and businesses must be high.


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## Rafa

Elles said:


> It's bank holiday weekend


All bringing traffic to a halt and closing Heathrow will do is p*ss off the man in the street who may be attempting to get to work, a hospital appointment or go on holiday over the Bank Holiday weekend.


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## Elles

PawsOnMe said:


> Didn't they try to stop the tube? Surely stopping public transport isnt what they should be doing instead trying to get people to choose public transport or green transport over using their cars?
> 
> It's a bit of a shambles tbh, smashing windows and vandalizing buildings isn't the way to do it.


The ones who spray painted and vandalised the shell building have been arrested and will go to court. They must think it's worth it. They've been doing small peaceful protests, no one took any notice. Unlike the French protests that were highly reported world wide. It's to be expected that these could go the same way tbh. Especially as more people joined.

Controversial indeed.


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## MilleD

Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed.
> 
> They will lose public sympathy behaving in this way imo.
> 
> It's coming across to me more as "rent a mob" rather than an intelligent protest given the disruption and vandalism.
> 
> The cost of policing, losses to transport and businesses must be high.


The woman I mentioned is called a 'compassionate revolutionary-for hire' in one article I read.

It plainly pays her to do bugger all so must be pretty lucrative.


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## Elles

Lol. Must be making a difference then.

Is their message the right one?


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## MilleD

Elles said:


> Lol. Must be making a difference then.
> 
> Is their message the right one?


It doesn't matter if it is. The ways and means are also important.


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## Elles

Yep and given that it’s getting worse not better, the end may well justify the means. We’ve hardly talked about climate change in recent times, what with Brexit.


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## picaresque

Pretty obvious police PR tactic there. Keeps the peace I suppose.


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## MilleD

Elles said:


> Yep and given that it's getting worse not better, the end may well justify the means. We've hardly talked about climate change in recent times, what with Brexit.


You may have missed the climate change thread that keeps getting longer then....


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## Rafa

Sir David Attenborough has been the one who, through his last documentary,has really highlighted the problem of plastic in the oceans and the harm it causes.

Difficult to imagine him rampaging around London, smashing windows.

There really is no justification for breaking the law.


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## Elles

MilleD said:


> You may have missed the climate change thread that keeps getting longer then....


There's hardly anything on it. 

When I say 'we' though, I mean the greater 'we'. People and governments in the U.K.


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## Elles

Rafa said:


> Sir David Attenborough has been the one who, through his last documentary,has really highlighted the problem of plastic in the oceans and the harm it causes.
> 
> Difficult to imagine him rampaging around London, smashing windows.
> 
> There really is no justification for breaking the law.


He has. We need to be more careful with our plastic. Thats a part of it. I think they should all go plant based too. Going plant based will do more for the environment than smashing windows.

Most of the protestors were involved in sitting down, not spray painting the shell building. They should have got Banksy to do it.


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## noushka05

Unless someone can think of something better, civil disobedience is now our only hope of forcing government to take the urgent & radical action required to save our planet. We have less than 12 years to drastically reduce our emissions. We are close to the tipping point of runaway climate change which will be irreversible & catastrophic for life on earth - our civilisation is in peril.

I hope everyone will tune into this tonight on BBC1. Hopefully then they will be not only be understanding of Extinction Rebellion - but supportive.


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## noushka05

Rafa said:


> Sir David Attenborough has been the one who, through his last documentary,has really highlighted the problem of plastic in the oceans and the harm it causes.
> 
> Difficult to imagine him rampaging around London, smashing windows.
> 
> There really is no justification for breaking the law.


They're not rampaging around London smashing windows.


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## noushka05

This is what I was trying to say.


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## MilleD

noushka05 said:


>


You're not going to like this.

Whilst I absolutely love David Attenborough - I believe no teacher taught me as much as he has - Packham needs to be a bit careful using the 'always' word.

Time was when Attenborough would steal the animals we now so admire from their native environments to bring them back to the UK.

This is from his own autobiography - not sensationalist journalism. It's funny how people forget things.


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## Elles

Hopefully they will take notice of what people there are saying and address their concerns. I can see why they spray painted the building, but if they did smash windows that is a step too far imo. I think many police officers are sympathetic to the cause, but will try to keep things moving as best they can. I do see your points, but I like that people are standing up against something that’s very important and getting noticed. It is important, not just to them, but to every being on the planet.

There was a lot of disruption over fox hunting too..


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## MilleD

Elles said:


> Hopefully they will take notice of what people there are saying and address their concerns. I can see why they spray painted the building, but if they did smash windows that is a step too far imo. I think many police officers are sympathetic to the cause, but will try to keep things moving as best they can. I do see your points, but I like that people are standing up against something that's very important and getting noticed. It is important, not just to them, but to every being on the planet.
> 
> There was a lot of disruption over fox hunting too..


My issue is more with the people that drive this sort of thing than the ideology itself. There must be something in it for them, and at that point the ideology gets lost somewhat.


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## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You're not going to like this.
> 
> Whilst I absolutely love David Attenborough - I believe no teacher taught me as much as he has - Packham needs to be a bit careful using the 'always' word.
> 
> Time was when Attenborough would steal the animals we now so admire from their native environments to bring them back to the UK.
> 
> This is from his own autobiography - not sensationalist journalism. It's funny how people forget things.


Yes Attenborough has spoken truthfully what he did in the past.


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## noushka05

MilleD said:


> My issue is more with the people that drive this sort of thing than the ideology itself. There must be something in it for them, and at that point the ideology gets lost somewhat.


Climate science isnt an ideology - its science.


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## Elles

MilleD said:


> My issue is more with the people that drive this sort of thing than the ideology itself. There must be something in it for them, and at that point the ideology gets lost somewhat.


I haven't met them and the media can't be trusted on this I think, so I'll reserve judgement. 

Some people will hang their coat on it though, because it's in and trendy and it's what they do. They like to think they're into all this sort of thing.


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## noushka05

Please listen to Greta Thunberg's emotional speech speaking truth to power at the EU Parliament in Strasbourg this week. This young girl has inspired millions of children & adults to stand up & fight for our living planet. She is amazing.


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## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Please listen to Greta Thunberg's emotional speech speaking truth to power at the EU Parliament in Strasbourg this week. This young girl has inspired millions of children & adults to stand up & fight for our living planet. She is amazing.


I'm sorry Noush, all I think when I see that is a poor girl that isn't enjoying what should be the best years of her life.

Maybe you think that's ok, but I really don't. She should be out being a kid.

You're right, she is amazing, but I really don't think that this will benefit her personally in the long term. I see sadness in her family's future


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## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I'm sorry Noush, all I think when I see that is a poor girl that isn't enjoying what should be the best years of her life.
> 
> Maybe you think that's ok, but I really don't. She should be out being a kid.
> 
> You're right, she is amazing, but I really don't think that this will benefit her personally in the long term. I see sadness in her family's future


Shes done this off her own back because she understands without radical change she may not have a future Mille. Its an act of desperation.


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## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Shes done this off her own back because she understands without radical change she may not have a future Mille. Its an act of desperation.


You have no idea if that is true or not, and what outside influence she has had from family/friends/teachers.

I don't think it's good for her.


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## Elles

MilleD said:


> You have no idea if that is true or not, and what outside influence she has had from family/friends/teachers.
> 
> I don't think it's good for her.


I agree. I'm presuming it's Greta. No 8 year old child with adhd and aspergers should become so terrified of global warming she suffers selective mutism and can't speak. I was horrified when I read it.


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## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> Its an act of desperation.


No child of that age should be feeling desperate.

Her next Birthday party, holiday, friends and having fun as a child should be her focus at that age, not global warming.

She looks terribly sad and I wonder what she is hearing to make her feel that way.


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## MollySmith

I have so many mixed feelings over Extinction Rebellion. They have been very vocal where I live and rightly so as one of the most popular places to live and with it pollution and a divided council who have been given money to tackle this but fibble flabble about and yet to take action. They are going to fail to address congestion in some areas of the city because of business and actually consumer power, consumers who drive cars and cause congestion, it feels like an uphill struggle so I did get involved initially.

What stopped me was legal advisors who only know how to get arrested and had funds to deal with bail, and the manner of the protest. It’s public transport that will save my city from gridlock so the notion of disruptive action for trains is madness. Cars, aeroplanes I can understand, cruise ships and Westminster because frankly I don’t think anyone who cares about our planet would vote for this Government. But I just don’t think it was thought of wisely. It goes against what I believe in, which is education, learning and whilst I don’t mind a march, pissing those who need to learn is not the way to go. I also would rather our desperately stretched police did other work. I have no comment on the founder being vegan or otherwise, I’m not 100% vegan and still believe in climate change protest.

Edit to say, I may head out tomorrow and see what is happening, I do think the media maybe cherry picking a little but my experiences made me feel uncomfortable.


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## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> My issue is more with the people that drive this sort of thing than the ideology itself. There must be something in it for them, and at that point the ideology gets lost somewhat.


I wonder that too. I think marches and demos can be for the good and this is a worthy cause . Ive been on them myself but when It becomes more than that in highly publicised ,cases I think it becomes more about the individual themselves, wanting to be part of something,

It will be something else next week , it was the same with save the seals , whales , anti vivisection in Trafalgar Sq, huge massive crowds and a couple of years alter it was down to a couple of hundred people outside the Canadian embassy etc


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## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You have no idea if that is true or not, and what outside influence she has had from family/friends/teachers.
> 
> I don't think it's good for her.





Elles said:


> I agree. I'm presuming it's Greta. No 8 year old child with adhd and aspergers should become so terrified of global warming she suffers selective mutism and can't speak. I was horrified when I read it.





Rafa said:


> No child of that age should be feeling desperate.
> 
> Her next Birthday party, holiday, friends and having fun as a child should be her focus at that age, not global warming.
> 
> She looks terribly sad and I wonder what she is hearing to make her feel that way.


 Don't you want children to be taught about climate change in schools? Climate denier Gove wanted to remove it from the curriculum, is that what you would like to happen? You think children should be ignorant about THE most important subject there is, one which will determine their future?

And no, I don't think its okay she should be suffering, I think its heartbreaking. If previous generations hadn't let Greta's generation down so badly Greta wouldn't feel compelled to do what shes doing now. She would not be living with the constant worry. World leaders & older generations are to blame for Greta's suffering, if adults dont want kids like Greta to shoulder the burden they should get out in the streets themselves. Join Extinction Rebellion maybe.

Greta's words.























































MollySmith said:


> I have so many mixed feelings over Extinction Rebellion. They have been very vocal where I live and rightly so as one of the most popular places to live and with it pollution and a divided council who have been given money to tackle this but fibble flabble about and yet to take action. They are going to fail to address congestion in some areas of the city because of business and actually consumer power, consumers who drive cars and cause congestion, it feels like an uphill struggle so I did get involved initially.
> 
> What stopped me was legal advisors who only know how to get arrested and had funds to deal with bail, and the manner of the protest. It's public transport that will save my city from gridlock so the notion of disruptive action for trains is madness. Cars, aeroplanes I can understand, cruise ships and Westminster because frankly I don't think anyone who cares about our planet would vote for this Government. But I just don't think it was thought of wisely. It goes against what I believe in, which is education, learning and whilst I don't mind a march, pissing those who need to learn is not the way to go. I also would rather our desperately stretched police did other work. I have no comment on the founder being vegan or otherwise, I'm not 100% vegan and still believe in climate change protest.
> 
> Edit to say, I may head out tomorrow and see what is happening, I do think the media maybe cherry picking a little but my experiences made me feel uncomfortable.


This is great by Jonathan Pie Molly. (WARNING: dont watch if you're offended by swear words though)

_as annoying as these tree-huggers might seem, peaceful civil disobedience has a history of changing minds and Government policy - It works!





_


kimthecat said:


> ve been on them myself but when It becomes more than that in highly publicised ,cases I think it becomes more about the individual themselves, wanting to be part of something,


You can only speak for yourself, just because it may be your reason for protesting doesn't mean its the same for other people. 'Wanting to be part of something' has zero to do with it for me or my family or my friends. We go because we desperately want to stop something or change something- its as simple as that for us.



kimthecat said:


> It will be something else next week , it was the same with save the seals , whales , anti vivisection in Trafalgar Sq, huge massive crowds and a couple of years alter it was down to a couple of hundred people outside the Canadian embassy etc


As the effects of climate change get worse & the window to act further closes, I suspect the movement will only grow. My fear is though, this ecocidal government of ours will crack down hard on peaceful climate protestors.


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## noushka05

I hope no one minds me posting this petition on this thread as well? https://act.friendsoftheearth.uk/petition/climate


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## Calvine

If one of them glued himself to my car I would drive off with him still attached. They are disrupting public transport with the result that people are resorting to driving or taking taxis. How intelligent and ''green'' is that! It shows you just how smart they are. Most people are not lucky enough to be able to take three or four days off work. Not sure whether to file this under ''WTF'' or ''Here We Go Again''.
Yet again, the wrong people are being inconvenienced. I wonder if the police would be so lenient if this lot tried to block off Downing Street?


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## Calvine

MilleD said:


> You may have missed the climate change thread that keeps getting longer then.


I think many of us avoid it (the thread you mention) as it has (predictably) been taken over by the usual suspect. As I have that suspect on ''ignore'' the whole thread becomes illegible and one-sided for me unfortunately.


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## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I think many of us avoid it as it has (predictably) been taken over by the usual suspect. As I have that suspect on ''ignore'' the whole thread becomes illegible for me unfortunately.


Yes you seem to follow me around constantly implying that you have me on ignore. Pointing out you have people on ignore seems to be your main contribution on some threads. Anyway troll me all you like Calvine, because you will never shut me down.


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## noushka05

Day 5.

If anyone can get down & show their support  https://m.facebook.com/events/2315727075159517?ref=m_notif&notif_t=plan_admin_added&_rdr


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## Cleo38

Am.not really sure what this is trying to achieve tbh. It seems to be a bit of a jolly few days out then will all be forgotten about.
As usual it will be ordinary people who lives will be affected, those who dont really have the power to make significant changes ..... am not sure how sympathetic people will be after all this tbh.
I don't understand why big businesses aren't directly targeted all over the UK, those who are major polluters, who could makes changes if pushed. Travelling to London then disrupting public transport just doesn't make sense to me at all


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## Calvine

Disrupting people trying to get to work is shameful enough, but if they really do try to cripple the airports, I think it will get violent. People will not take kindly to having their holiday plans ruined, and I can see it ending badly. They should target the people who are in a position to do something, not families with children trying to get away for a few days.


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## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> Don't you want children to be taught about climate change in schools? Climate denier Gove wanted to remove it from the curriculum, is that what you would like to happen? You think children should be ignorant about THE most important subject there is, one which will determine their future?
> 
> And no, I don't think its okay she should be suffering, I think its heartbreaking. If previous generations hadn't let Greta's generation down so badly Greta wouldn't feel compelled to do what shes doing now. She would not be living with the constant worry. World leaders & older generations are to blame for Greta's suffering, if adults dont want kids like Greta to shoulder the burden they should get out in the streets themselves. Join Extinction Rebellion maybe.
> 
> Greta's words.
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> This is great by Jonathan Pie Molly. (WARNING: dont watch if you're offended by swear words though)
> 
> _as annoying as these tree-huggers might seem, peaceful civil disobedience has a history of changing minds and Government policy - It works!
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> _
> 
> You can only speak for yourself, just because it may be your reason for protesting doesn't mean its the same for other people. 'Wanting to be part of something' has zero to do with it for me or my family or my friends. We go because we desperately want to stop something or change something- its as simple as that for us.
> 
> As the effects of climate change get worse & the window to act further closes, I suspect the movement will only grow. My fear is though, this ecocidal government of ours will crack down hard on peaceful climate protestors.


I have seen that video by Jonathan, it doesn't really alleviate my concerns about the actions and outcomes here which seem to have got a little lost. I've studied a Masters in social design....!

Shock tactics is a good thing to get attention by the action/outcome/result narrative is becoming lost by a few who are being picked up by the media and I think a lack on control on this side is devaluing it. Glueing oneself to a train is not the right approach in many people's eyes including mine and it confuses and antagonistises. In my studies, actions that appeal to human senses, values etc and those actions that buy into the objections feelings, that's to say the naysayers, work better such as Candy Chang's work and campaigns by FoE like measuring air quality which are persuasive may have more power. Good campaigns work when the taxi driver who earns money from driving has cause to think and he/she should be at the forefront of the creators of actions. This clearly wasn't the case when I went to the meetings, my concern is that it will turn many off. I hope I'm wrong, I really do but my questions go unanswered by those who run it. That's not a rhetorical question, so no more memes or videos for me. I have seen most!


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## samuelsmiles3

Calvine said:


> I think many of us avoid it (the thread you mention) as it has (predictably) been taken over by the usual suspect. As I have that suspect on ''ignore'' the whole thread becomes illegible and one-sided for me unfortunately.


That's disappointing - I would really love for that thread to get more input because I'm genuinely interested in what people are thinking about climate change right now.

Should it be locked?


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## Calvine

@samuelsmiles3: I agree, but last time I looked at it (admittedly, not very recently) it was pretty much a couple of people whose comments made little sense as I did not know what they were replying to owing to having a prolific poster on ignore.


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## kimthecat

samuelsmiles3 said:


> That's disappointing - I would really love for that thread to get more input because I'm genuinely interested in what people are thinking about climate change right now.
> 
> Should it be locked?


No lt shouldnt be locked. I dont contribute for the same reason as Calvine but others still might want to post.


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## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Should it be locked?


 Not as long as it's not causing offence. I just have to avoid it myself (and some others do too, for the same reason).


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## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> I have seen that video by Jonathan, it doesn't really alleviate my concerns about the actions and outcomes here which seem to have got a little lost. I've studied a Masters in social design....!
> 
> Shock tactics is a good thing to get attention by the action/outcome/result narrative is becoming lost by a few who are being picked up by the media and I think a lack on control on this side is devaluing it. Glueing oneself to a train is not the right approach in many people's eyes including mine and it confuses and antagonistises. In my studies, actions that appeal to human senses, values etc and those actions that buy into the objections feelings, that's to say the naysayers, work better such as Candy Chang's work and campaigns by FoE like measuring air quality which are persuasive may have more power. Good campaigns work when the taxi driver who earns money from driving has cause to think and he/she should be at the forefront of the creators of actions. This clearly wasn't the case when I went to the meetings, my concern is that it will turn many off. I hope I'm wrong, I really do but my questions go unanswered by those who run it. That's not a rhetorical question, so no more memes or videos for me. I have seen most!


Appreciate your points Molly. Personally I think if people understood how close we are to global catastrophe, they would be more understanding. So many people seem to be oblivious to the fact that we are sleepwalking down a suicidal path with only a tiny window of opportunity to act. Extinction Rebellion have got people talking about climate change, so maybe (hopefully) people will wake up. This is an act of desperation to force governments to act - time is not on our side.


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## MollySmith

I would much rather the climate change thread had more tips and advice, stuff we can do rather than alarmist posts though I appreciate that awareness is needed, but I like to hope we all know that climate change is real. I think I might have created a thread that did that... god knows!

Many, me in included, have anxiety about climate change. I am genuinely anxious about it so doing something (about anything be that Brexit, being eco minded) beats posting on a pet forum for me. I feel more useful.

With that in mind I'm finally going to see what Extinction Rebellion are up to in real life as I can see I'm contributing to the hyperbole and I'd prefer to see for myself.

@noushka05 what Extinction Rebellion protests have you or will you be taking part in? Anyone else thinking of going?


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## lymorelynn

The thread will remain open but please keep the debate civil.
Comments about other members and their styles of posting isn't helpful and adds nothing to the debate


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## Elles

samuelsmiles3 said:


> That's disappointing - I would really love for that thread to get more input because I'm genuinely interested in what people are thinking about climate change right now.
> 
> Should it be locked?


I agree that I don't think it needs locking. I posted on it a couple of times, but it's not an interesting thread for me either, for the same reasons others have cited. Sorry.


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## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> Appreciate your points Molly. Personally I think if people understood how close we are to global catastrophe, they would be more understanding. So many people seem to be oblivious to the fact that we are sleepwalking down a suicidal path with only a tiny window of opportunity to act. Extinction Rebellion have got people talking about climate change, so maybe (hopefully) people will wake up. This is an act of desperation to force governments to act - time is not on our side.


And I agree with you too. I just feel it's got a bit chaotic and played to the media who are largely so unforgiving. But yes it has made people think (maybe not with empathy) and beautifully timed with David Attenborough's programme last night.

I have a fire eating friend who is dressed in red and walking through London as the blood of Earth with fellow dancers and performers in a peaceful protest as part of Extinction Rebellion and she wryly said that had they climbed a statue or done something outrageous they too may have made the headlines. Anyway I'm so proud of her.


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## noushka05

@noushka05 what Extinction Rebellion protests have you or will you be taking part in? Anyone else thinking of going?[/QUOTE]

I've joined my local Extinction Rebellion group but haven't been on any protests with them as yet, as my Dad has just come out of hospital. We've been on anti fracking protests & we've been on several climate change protests though - the last one was in March joining the School Strikes for climate, my hubby went on strike from work to join them.

I think everyone who understands the seriousness of what we are facing is deeply anxious & worried Molly. And I'm sorry if my 'alarmist' posts upset you, but if other people don't know the truth how can we get the message across?


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## MollySmith

I also...sorry I will go out in a mo and leave you all in peace... that when we get passionate about a cause we can lose sight of compromise. Think about the vegan threads here for example. About the Brexit posts, and how damm hard it is to put ourselves in other person’s shoes like my mythical London cabbie who may well know all about climate change but has to earn a living. Those sorts of demographics are in danger of being turned off because they may well feel belittled, lectured too and patronised by those who mean well, which is no better than our Government and end up feeling powerless too. Those people are the ones to notice and to listen and engage with in my opinion.

Going now. Will try not be arrested and waste police time. I only want one police record and ideally the vinyl sort.


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## Calvine

The thing that strikes me about many ''eco-warriors'' is the fact that their own ''carbon footprint'' is gigantic (one example that comes immediately to mind is Leonardo di Caprio who travels by private jet). And yet on the climate change thread he was hailed as the goodly one who cared about the planet. You can bet your life many of the ones causing havoc this week arrived in 4X4 gas guzzlers before tying themselves to Corbyn's fence!!


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## Gemmaa

It's a shame there's so many protestors using single use plastic, and smoking :Facepalm.


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## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> The thing that strikes me about many ''eco-warriors'' is the fact that their own ''carbon footprint'' is gigantic (one example that comes immediately to mind is Leonardo di Caprio who travels by private jet). And yet on the climate change thread he was hailed as the goodly one who cared about the planet. You can bet your life many of the ones causing havoc this week arrived in 4X4 gas guzzlers before tying themselves to Corbyn's fence!!


Hahaha! I know, it's bizarre! But then alot of celebs are like that, preaching to us ordinary people whilst swanning round their world in their private jets & justifying it because they plant a few trees …. 

There was a big festival several years ago to highlight climate change … it sounded horrendous; pop stars, actors, etc were all flying in (again many in private planes), being taken to the stage areas in huge 4x4 gas guzzler vehicles, the power needed for the event alone must have been huge (as probably was the carbon footprint), the stalls selling loads of sh*t that people didn't need, probably loads of drinks being sold in plastic containers, etc …. the irony was obviously completely lost on those who thought they were involved in 'activism' by attending this rubbish


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## Elles

Calvine said:


> The thing that strikes me about many ''eco-warriors'' is the fact that their own ''carbon footprint'' is gigantic (one example that comes immediately to mind is Leonardo di Caprio who travels by private jet. And yet on the climate change thread he was hailed as the goodly one who cared about the planet. You can bet your life many of the ones causing havoc this week arrived in 4X4 gas guzzlers before tying themselves to Corbyn's fence!!


That's why they want government money to support alternative and cleaner technologies. So that there's an accessible alternative to gas guzzling 4x4. The tech has been there for yonks, but governments, investors and corporations support what has been making them money. To be fair though, people have been car sharing and hiring buses. I know they have for travelling there from down here in the sw. They don't all turn up in diesel tanks, even though not so long ago we were told diesel tanks were the best.

It's like the vegan thing. Money is ploughed into supporting and promoting animal agriculture and not into the science of stuff like clean meat, or other alternatives to meat and dairy. Although that is more consumer driven really. The other, consumers can't do much about. If our electricity comes from fossil fuels, we have little choice if we want power. That is up to government etc. They're telling government bodies to sort out alternatives, instead of telling individuals to turn off the lights and buy a bicycle.


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## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> Hahaha! I know, it's bizarre! But then alot of celebs are like that, preaching to us ordinary people whilst swanning round their world in their private jets & justifying it because they plant a few trees ….


Yes, the hypocrisy is staggering! They all do it, and actually use their award ceremonies to preach to - well, any poor sod who is withing earshot. Meryl Streep and Robert de Niro use the ceremony stages as platforms to tell everyone which President they prefer, etc. So many people having to go by car in London because this lot are disrupting the trains! When commuters are paying £8000 a year to get from Kent to London to do a day's work, they must be truly at the end of their tether when this sort of thing happens.

_the irony was obviously completely lost on those who thought they were involved in 'activism' by attending this rubbish_

They likely thought that eating a vegan sandwich made everything OK.


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## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> Yes, the hypocrisy is staggering! They all do it, and actually use their award ceremonies to preach to - well, any poor sod who is withing earshot. Meryl Streep and Robert de Niro use the ceremony stages as platforms to tell everyone which President they prefer, etc. So many people having to go by car in London because this lot are disrupting the trains! When commuters are paying £8000 a year to get from Kent to London to do a day's work, they must be truly at the end of their tether when this sort of thing happens.
> 
> _the irony was obviously completely lost on those who thought they were involved in 'activism' by attending this rubbish_
> 
> *They likely thought that eating a vegan sandwich made everything OK*.




But I agree, it's about looking at all aspects of our life & making changes not the easy options then trying to justify with token gestures.

I for one get sick of millionaires telling me how to live my life.

​


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## Elles

Calvine said:


> Yes, the hypocrisy is staggering! They all do it, and actually use their award ceremonies to preach to - well, any poor sod who is withing earshot. Meryl Streep and Robert de Niro use the ceremony stages as platforms to tell everyone which President they prefer, etc. So many people having to go by car in London because this lot are disrupting the trains! When commuters are paying £8000 a year to get from Kent to London to do a day's work, they must be truly at the end of their tether when this sort of thing happens.


Wouldn't you rather they disrupted things now for a few days? The more people join them, the more likely the government, investors and corporations are to take notice. I'd rather not give up my car and tech and electricity. I'd rather money, science and expertise was paid for to give me these things without destroying the planet. Our company pays its taxes, put the money into improving matters please, instead of making it worse so that you can become richer.

I wish all these eco warriors would at least go plant based though, that would do a fair bit. That's my main sticking point. That and using and scaring kids.  Young children needn't be told the sky is falling and kept awake at night.


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## Cleo38

Elles said:


> Wouldn't you rather they disrupted things now for a few days? The more people join them, the more likely the government, investors and corporations are to take notice. I'd rather not give up my car and tech and electricity. I'd rather money, science and expertise was paid for to give me these things without destroying the planet. Our company pays its taxes, put the money into improving matters please, instead of making it worse so that you can become richer.
> 
> I wish all these eco warriors would at least go plant based though, that would do a fair bit. That's my main sticking point. That and using and scaring kids.  Young children needn't be told the sky is falling and kept awake at night.


For me no, because I think that the disruption is unnecessary. I don't think it will achieve anything because the wrong people are being targeted. Why not take direction action on those actively involved; the companies, the politicians? It's always us ordinary people who have our lives disrupted whilst those in charge couldn't give a stuff really what happens.

But completely agree with your last point …..


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## Calvine

Elles said:


> Wouldn't you rather they disrupted things now for a few days?


To be honest, no. And for many it is just a few days of fun. It struck me that when the schoolchildren protested ''about climate change'' (at least they were civilised) that they planned it for a schoolday instead of the half-term which was close. That sort of gives the game away.


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## Calvine

Gemmaa said:


> It's a shame there's so many protestors using single use plastic, and smoking


As in ''Don't do as I do, do as I tell you''.


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## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> For me no, because I think that the disruption is unnecessary


Unnecessary and unfair and not targetting the right areas. Instead of schoolchildren taking schooldays off to ''protest'', maybe they should organise days where they are educated on how best to help reduce the problem rather than having their normal lessons.


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## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> For me no, because I think that the disruption is unnecessary. I don't think it will achieve anything because the wrong people are being targeted. Why not take direction action on those actively involved; the companies, the politicians? It's always us ordinary people who have our lives disrupted whilst those in charge couldn't give a stuff really what happens.
> 
> But completely agree with your last point …..


Tbh down here they generally did, it was council and government bodies targeted and marches or very short hold ups.

They did target the shell building though and I suppose breaking a window (not sure how yet) and spray painting accusations is pretty direct. There must be an awful lot of people involved if they're causing that much disruption though.


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## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> I have a fire eating friend who is dressed in red and walking through London as the blood of Earth with fellow dancers and performers in a peaceful protest as part of Extinction Rebellion and she wryly said that had they climbed a statue or done something outrageous they too may have made the headlines. Anyway I'm so proud of her.


I would be proud of her too 



MollySmith said:


> Going now. Will try not be arrested and waste police time. I only want one police record and ideally the vinyl sort.


Hope you have a nice day x


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## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Unnecessary and unfair and not targetting the right areas. Instead of schoolchildren taking schooldays off to ''protest'', maybe they should organise days where they are educated on how best to help reduce the problem rather than having their normal lessons.


Because by the time many of them can vote, it will be too late. People still dont seem to understand the urgency of the situation.


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## noushka05

Calvine said:


> The thing that strikes me about many ''eco-warriors'' is the fact that their own ''carbon footprint'' is gigantic (one example that comes immediately to mind is Leonardo di Caprio who travels by private jet). And yet on the climate change thread he was hailed as the goodly one who cared about the planet. You can bet your life many of the ones causing havoc this week arrived in 4X4 gas guzzlers before tying themselves to Corbyn's fence!!


This was my reply to you on the climate change thread after you rightly pointed out DiCaprio's hypocrisy Calvine.



noushka05 said:


> That's a very fair point you make Calvine. I suspect Leonardo has a HUGE carbon footprint, as a passionate environmentalist I would imagine he'll be doing his best to try to offset it but that's really not good enough, is it. Not only that it gives ammunition to those who deny climate change or couldn't care less about it. George Monbiot did a great article on celebrity environmentalists & their hypocrisy, i'll find it & add it to the thread later. Somewhere on this thread I've posted a quote by world renowned climate scientist Kevin Anderson. Unlike Leo, Kevin refuses to fly, he believes its important to demonstrate we can live good lives without having very high carbon footprints. He travelled to the UN Climate Summit in Paris buy boat & train for example. As he says although the emissions of one individual aren't very important its a symbolic message he's sending by not flying.
> 
> OMG @leashedForLife !
> 
> Climate change is happening before our eyes yet masses of people are still denying it :/





Cleo38 said:


> Hahaha! I know, it's bizarre! But then alot of celebs are like that, preaching to us ordinary people whilst swanning round their world in their private jets & justifying it because they plant a few trees ….
> 
> There was a big festival several years ago to highlight climate change … it sounded horrendous; pop stars, actors, etc were all flying in (again many in private planes), being taken to the stage areas in huge 4x4 gas guzzler vehicles, the power needed for the event alone must have been huge (as probably was the carbon footprint), the stalls selling loads of sh*t that people didn't need, probably loads of drinks being sold in plastic containers, etc …. the irony was obviously completely lost on those who thought they were involved in 'activism' by attending this rubbish


Leading climate scientist Kevin Anderson, has labelled a term for the likes of Leo DiCaprio, he calls them the climate glitterati.

Here he reviews DiCaprio's film. https://kevinanderson.info/blog/before-the-flood-a-review-by-kevin-anderson/

*Before the Flood - a review by Kevin Anderson*

This is my review of Leornardo DiCaprio's film* Before the Flood*

February 2017
Twitter @KevinClimate

There is much to commend this film - not least Leonardo DiCaprio's natural propensity to see through unsubstantiated optimism along with his evident appreciation of the science of climate change and the beauty & fragility of our time on this planet. Ok, he's an actor with an elaborate film crew - but nevertheless something genuine and important shines through. He deserves credit for what he has been part of - and that is not something I find easy to say. Celebrities, including DiCaprio, both epitomise and fuel our greed for evermore consumption. They are the metaphorical Jones family next door with the bigger car, larger house, private jet and obscene carbon footprint - the pinnacle of the increasingly ubiquitous American dream. And in my judgement it is here that the film is weakest - and to an extent disingenuous.

The solutions touched on are far too seductive and make no reference to the carbon budget concept that translates the Paris Agreement's temperature commitments into the scale and timeframe for reducing emissions. Carbon budgets are simple to understand, but their repercussions are profound, evidently too profound for this film.

So instead we have Gregory Mankiw, a Harvard economics professor, and technology entrepreneur Elon Musk, asserting the only way forward is though a carbon tax gently _"nudging"_us towards a technical utopia. Just one hundred of Musk's "gigafactories" will see the world's energy supply magically transformed away from fossil fuels. Certainly, if a significant upstream price is put on carbon, investors will begin to shift away from fossil-fuel energy. Moreover, the Musks of this world indeed have a role to play. But they are not our silver-bullet saviours - they're one part of complex and dynamic puzzle.

Only Sunita Narain, from Delhi's Centre for Science and Environment is prepared to point to the elephant in the room, the carbon-profligate lifestyle to which DiCaprio, the Koch Brothers, climate elites and professors have grown all too accustomed. Combine this with Johan Rockström's fear that we are making the transition to a sustainable future all "too slowly" and the plot for a follow-up film begins to emerge.

Certainly huge strides towards low carbon energy could be achieved now with existing energy supply and demand technologies. The research, development and deployment of promising new technologies, including Musk's solar-battery future, could be accelerated. But Paris and carbon budgets frame an urgent problem far beyond the multi-decadal timeframe of deploying sufficient new energy technologies to displace fossil fuels. Deep and early mitigation through reduced fossil-fuel use by high emitters is key to both extending the window for this technology-transition and for leaving sufficient emission space for those in poverty to have near-term access to fossil fuel energy.

Finally, having suspended my antipathy towards individuals with carbon footprints greater than that of many African towns, I was brought rudely back to reality with the film's closing statement - reiterated on its accompanying website. "_The carbon emissions from Before The Flood were offset through a voluntary carbon tax."_ Worse still it then extols the virtues of offsetting by encouraging other high emitters to _"Learn how you can offset your own carbon emissions by going to [link omitted]"_

I really doubt that the Pope, whose Encyclical makes more systems-level sense than the plethora of glossy reports dispensed by green-growth 'think' tanks (and who was interviewed for the film), would sanction the ongoing "buying of indulgences". For that's what it is. The emissions from first-class flights, grand hotel rooms and travelling film crews are changing the climate now - and will for the next ten thousand years. The deed's been done - and no amount of conscience-salving finance can assuage the climate impact. Ok, the projects funded may have real and important value - but asking someone else to diet whilst we binge on high-carbon fun is simply fraudulent.

The Paris commitments cannot be delivered through well meant technocratic tweaks - even large ones. Technology and new economic rules are certainly prerequisites for delivering on _"well below 2°C"_ - and DiCaprio does an adequate job of making this case. But they fall far short, in both delivery and scale, of what's needed to stay within the rapidly dwindling carbon budgets accompanying Paris. Here, DiCaprio's film serves to reinforce the misguided view that clever scientists, engineers and economists have the solutions to hand - just the evil oil companies are in the way.

Despite my entrenched prejudice against our celebrity culture, I nevertheless recommend DiCaprio's Before the Flood. If seen in conjunction with Robert Kenner's wonderful and engaging film of Conway & Oreskes' superb book, Merchants of Doubt, then a real sense of just what we're up against emerges. But for a complete picture there needs to be a trilogy, with the final film focusing in on its audience. Unfortunately, as self-portraits are always the most revealing of art forms, this final film will be the most challenging to fund and difficult to produce.


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## noushka05

At least one taxi driver understands the gravity of what we are facing . And Emma Thompson is there again.


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## Calvine

Elles said:


> They did target the shell building though and I suppose breaking a window (not sure how yet) and spray painting accusations is pretty direct


The unfortunate thing about protests - not just this one - is that they tend to attract the unsavoury elements from Rentamob and the like, so no-one is sure who is doing what.


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## noushka05

Calvine said:


> The unfortunate thing about protests - not just this one - is that they tend to attract the unsavoury elements from Rentamob and the like, so no-one is sure who is doing what.


I've been on countless protests and every single one was peaceful. You probably think all protests are as nasty as the pro leave protests - well they're not.


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## HarlequinCat

Didn't Emma Thompson fly all the way from LA to be there?


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## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> Didn't Emma Thompson fly all the way from LA to be there?


Yes, so I believe. But she's a celeb, so it's OK.


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## noushka05

HarlequinCat said:


> Didn't Emma Thompson fly all the way from LA to be there?


If she did, she is in the climate glitterati set like DiCaprio.


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## noushka05

Well you cant get more peaceful than this


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## Cleo38

HarlequinCat said:


> Didn't Emma Thompson fly all the way from LA to be there?


Oh but she probably planted a couple of trees so that makes up for it right?!!


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## noushka05

And Greta  I pray she wins the Nobel Peace Prize, no one deserves it more & it will also raise awareness of the greatest crisis we face.


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## Elles

Don’t you want government bodies, investors and corporations to invest so that we can fly and drive our cars when we need to? If public transport was better, cleaner and cheaper and more people could and wanted to use it, it would be better for the car drivers too. Less congested roads. If cars were cleaner too, it’s be better for us when we walk, or cycle. We need technology and investment for this though. I can’t do anything about it. Our local public transport is rubbish, so I don’t use it. It hasn’t made a jot of difference of course. I’m not sitting in the dark and missing Game of Thrones either. I better plant a tree and beat myself with one of its branches. 

How do we get the wealthy, powerful and elected to take notice and realise that investing in this kind of thing and taking action is needed, profitable and more likely to get them elected? If the choice isn’t there we can’t show them through choice can we? Suggestions on a recycled postcard, but not to me. 

I never liked Emma Thompson, other than in Nanny McPhee. Not my kind of actress. I prefer Helen Mirren.


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## kimthecat

On the BBC news , a protester being arrested and saying she will be back until the Government listen . Doesn't she know if they do a petition and get 100, 000 the government will debate it in parliament. ?

Mean while unsung heroes are doing their bit in our area , HS2 and No third runway .

I see the protesters in their hut in Harefield , they are there every day regardless of freezing cold weather etc .
These are the real heroes. 
http://stophs2.org/news/17735-protesters-stop-risk-hs2-contaminating-london-water-supply


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## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> On the BBC news , a protester being arrested and saying she will be back until the Government listen . Doesn't she know if they do a petition and get 100, 000 the government will debate it in parliament. ?
> 
> Mean while unsung heroes are doing their bit in our area , HS2 and No third runway .
> 
> I see the protesters in their hut in Harefield , they are there every day regardless of freezing cold weather etc .
> These are the real heroes.
> http://stophs2.org/news/17735-protesters-stop-risk-hs2-contaminating-london-water-supply


The Government who failed to meet 14 of the 19 climate targets? And that's why people are protesting.

A petition is all very well but unless it's adopted by an MP then its not guaranteed a full and fair hearing. And even then it needs a clear message and outcome and almost all the petition on the government site lack the correct language which really matters. If you do want to sign something worth while @noushka05 posted one backed by Friends of the Earth a few pages back. It'll have more oomph because it's endorsed.


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## Colette

I think a lot of people are missing the bigger picture where Extinction Rebellion and the protests are concerned. 

1. These protests are happening for a few days, not much in the scheme of things. 
If we don't get climate change under control right now the impact will last for years. If we go beyond a certain point the effects will be irreversible.

2. Yes, unfortunately some normal people are having their lives disrupted by the protests.
If we do not get climate change under control right now it will have a detrimental effect on EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET. 

3. The disruption of these protests will include some delays, maybe missed days of work, etc.
The disruption of continued global warming will mean mass destruction of the natural world, extinction of thousands of species, starvation, water shortages, more frequent and more extreme weather events, etc. For millions of people, animals, and plants it means death.

5. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Individuals, businesses and governments alike have had decades to get this under control. They have failed. We are running out of time. This is not in any way comparable to other campaigns and protests where it is a matter of personal opinion and ethics over whether or not something is 'right or wrong'. We are at the tipping point - if the world unites and makes the necessary changes now we can avert total disaster. If not, then don't be whining when no water comes out of your tap, when supermarket shelves are empty, or when faced with immigration issues from the hundreds of millions who will be forced out of their homes.


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## kimthecat

@MollySmith Yes. Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace , Ive been following them for many years since the 70s. They do good things .
Lets hope the protesters know about the petition .

We also have the Wildlife Trust here and local volunteers helping to clear the rubbish in the woods and rivers etc , clearing paths etc regenerating the neglected woodland . So well done to them for making a difference.

@Collette Well lets hope it works and the government take notice , TBH honest Ive seen so many protests and marches over the years and Im not sure if they make any difference .
Its not just our government but other governments too. Who are the worst polluters and what can be done to encourage them to do more. etc


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## MilleD

HarlequinCat said:


> Didn't Emma Thompson fly all the way from LA to be there?


Yes, to be irritating here instead of in the US.


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## samuelsmiles3

Heathrow protest abandoned by activists and replaced with handful of teenagers causing 'emotional disruption'.

_Another girl said: "It's about the message that we're trying to send, and that is that *we are very possibly the last generation and that our futures have been stolen, the lives we thought we would be able to lead have been taken."
*_
Good grief. I hope this is a tiny proportion of kids feeling this way.


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## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> Oh but she probably planted a couple of trees so that makes up for it right?!!


And had a vegan sandwich and a coffee made from ''plant milk'' for lunch; so that's all right too.


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## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Yes, to be irritating here instead of in the US


You beat me to it, as you always do!


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## kimthecat

Colette said:


> I
> 
> 3. The disruption of these protests will include some delays, maybe missed days of work, etc.
> .


Does anyone live in London? I wonder what the true effect of ,not just this demonstration but all the many others have on the people that live here. 
Its easy to dismiss it as a few days of work , small businesses can easily go out of business, do those who miss work get paid ? Who pays for the cost of the police , the people who live here through their rates to their own council and also to the GLC .
Exhausted cops who never get time with their families , there's stabbings and violent crimes being committed , terrorism .

@samuelsmiles3 Im sure they are worried the same as we were worried when we got a pamphlet through the post from the Government in the 80s telling us what to do in case of a nuclear war. We would have been wiped out in London if one had happened. 
Nuclear war is a massive threat to us and the way things are could occur any time even before climate change does.


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## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> we were worried when we got a pamphlet through the post from the Government in the 80s telling us what to do in case of a nuclear war


 That and Threads terrified many didn't it!

If I have the name of the TV show wrong apologises I was only tiny!


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## samuelsmiles3

Emma Thompson did also appear recently in a British Airways commercial so it's very difficult to judge her motives.


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## Cleo38

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Emma Thompson did also appear recently in a British Airways commercial so it's very difficult to judge her motives.


Really? What hypocrisy! There is no reason for someone with her money & opportunities to promote something like this if it goes against her beliefs


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## catz4m8z

Colette said:


> 3. The disruption of these protests will include some delays, maybe missed days of work, etc.
> The disruption of continued global warming will mean mass destruction of the natural world, extinction of thousands of species, starvation, water shortages, more frequent and more extreme weather events, etc. For millions of people, animals, and plants it means death.
> 
> 5. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Individuals, businesses and governments alike have had decades to get this under control. They have failed. We are running out of time. This is not in any way comparable to other campaigns and protests where it is a matter of personal opinion and ethics over whether or not something is 'right or wrong'. We are at the tipping point - if the world unites and makes the necessary changes now we can avert total disaster. If not, then don't be whining when no water comes out of your tap, when supermarket shelves are empty, or when faced with immigration issues from the hundreds of millions who will be forced out of their homes.


I really dont understand how more people arent upset by this TBH. Its like we have a giant asteroid heading towards us and nothing is being done to stop it. Its not like if we break this planet we can all move on to the next one!


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## samuelsmiles3

Cleo38 said:


> Really? What hypocrisy! There is no reason for someone with her money & opportunities to promote something like this if it goes against her beliefs


You would have thought, yes.


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## samuelsmiles3

Cleo38 said:


> Really? What hypocrisy! There is no reason for someone with her money & opportunities to promote something like this if it goes against her beliefs


Sorry - my mistake, it was primatologist, Jane Goodall. I got my hypocrites mixed up.


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## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> Don't you want children to be taught about climate change in schools? Climate denier Gove wanted to remove it from the curriculum, is that what you would like to happen? You think children should be ignorant about THE most important subject there is, one which will determine their future?
> 
> And no, I don't think its okay she should be suffering, I think its heartbreaking. If previous generations hadn't let Greta's generation down so badly Greta wouldn't feel compelled to do what shes doing now. She would not be living with the constant worry. World leaders & older generations are to blame for Greta's suffering, if adults dont want kids like Greta to shoulder the burden they should get out in the streets themselves. Join Extinction Rebellion maybe.
> 
> Greta's words.
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> This is great by Jonathan Pie Molly. (WARNING: dont watch if you're offended by swear words though)
> 
> _as annoying as these tree-huggers might seem, peaceful civil disobedience has a history of changing minds and Government policy - It works!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> You can only speak for yourself, just because it may be your reason for protesting doesn't mean its the same for other people. 'Wanting to be part of something' has zero to do with it for me or my family or my friends. We go because we desperately want to stop something or change something- its as simple as that for us.
> 
> As the effects of climate change get worse & the window to act furher closes, I suspect the movement will only grow. My fear is though, this ecocidal government of ours will crack down hard on peaceful climate protestors.


I don't doubt she's an intelligent child, but no eight year old ever wrote that.

Of course it's good for children to learn how best to manage our environment, but not to be brainwashed to the point where they're living in fear, or desperate, to quote you.


----------



## kimthecat

So who here went to the demo in London or other ones on Saturday ?


----------



## Cleo38

Rafa said:


> I don't doubt she's an intelligent child, but no eight year old ever wrote that.
> 
> Of course it's good for children to learn how best to manage our environment, but not to be brainwashed to the point where they're living in fear, or desperate, to quote you.


I grew up in the 70's/80's & the threat of nuclear war was always being discussed. We were talking about this at my dog training club the other week about how many of us (as children) were terrified by it as it always seemed to be there. We watched the film Threads at school & it was horrific


----------



## noushka05

Colette said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the bigger picture where Extinction Rebellion and the protests are concerned.
> 
> 1. These protests are happening for a few days, not much in the scheme of things.
> If we don't get climate change under control right now the impact will last for years. If we go beyond a certain point the effects will be irreversible.
> 
> 2. Yes, unfortunately some normal people are having their lives disrupted by the protests.
> If we do not get climate change under control right now it will have a detrimental effect on EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET.
> 
> 3. The disruption of these protests will include some delays, maybe missed days of work, etc.
> The disruption of continued global warming will mean mass destruction of the natural world, extinction of thousands of species, starvation, water shortages, more frequent and more extreme weather events, etc. For millions of people, animals, and plants it means death.
> 
> 5. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Individuals, businesses and governments alike have had decades to get this under control. They have failed. We are running out of time. This is not in any way comparable to other campaigns and protests where it is a matter of personal opinion and ethics over whether or not something is 'right or wrong'. We are at the tipping point - if the world unites and makes the necessary changes now we can avert total disaster. If not, then don't be whining when no water comes out of your tap, when supermarket shelves are empty, or when faced with immigration issues from the hundreds of millions who will be forced out of their homes.


Excellent post x I simply don't understand how so many people still cannot grasp the magnitude of what we are facing.



kimthecat said:


> Does anyone live in London? I wonder what the true effect of ,not just this demonstration but all the many others have on the people that live here.
> Its easy to dismiss it as a few days of work , small businesses can easily go out of business, do those who miss work get paid ? Who pays for the cost of the police , the people who live here through their rates to their own council and also to the GLC .
> Exhausted cops who never get time with their families , there's stabbings and violent crimes being committed , terrorism .
> 
> @samuelsmiles3 Im sure they are worried the same as we were worried when we got a pamphlet through the post from the Government in the 80s telling us what to do in case of a nuclear war. We would have been wiped out in London if one had happened.
> Nuclear war is a massive threat to us and the way things are could occur any time even before climate change does.


Climate change is here, we now have a small window of opportunity to drastically cut our emmissions before we go over the tipping point & it becomes irreversible & the effects catastrophic for life on earth.



catz4m8z said:


> I really dont understand how more people arent upset by this TBH. Its like we have a giant asteroid heading towards us and nothing is being done to stop it. Its not like if we break this planet we can all move on to the next one!


Me neither, but this is what we're up against. The kids shame older generations, no wonder they feel so let down.



Rafa said:


> I don't doubt she's an intelligent child, but no eight year old ever wrote that.
> 
> Of course it's good for children to learn how best to manage our environment, but not to be brainwashed to the point where they're living in fear, or desperate, to quote you.


I didn't say an eight year old child did write that Shes just turned 16. Teaching children scientific facts isn't brainwashing Rafa. If older generations had been better informed & acted accordingly then maybe Greta & her generation wouldn't have been forced into taking action now.

,


----------



## noushka05

I love this.


----------



## mrs phas

tbf theyre causing more pollution by jamming streets than not
plus rent a mob tactics
and i notice rent a mouth was there today spouting off her hot air
when will people realise that we can do what we can, even get things down to zero or negative numbers, 
but it 
will make no difference whilst china and india are emerging industrial countries, china has just done a deal with malaysia over palm oil 
and the biggest polluting country in the world ( all pollution) 
has a leader who doesnt believe global warming is a thing, that alternate fuels need to be funded and that we will be the reason this earth become unviable ( im surprised hes not a flat earther as well)


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Sorry - my mistake, it was primatologist, Jane Goodall. I got my hypocrites mixed up.


Oh dear. She been my hero for years .
What has she done ?



mrs phas said:


> tbf theyre causing more pollution by jamming streets than not
> plus rent a mob tactics
> and i notice rent a mouth was there today spouting off her hot air
> when will people realise that we can do what we can, even get things down to zero or negative numbers,
> but it
> will make no difference whilst china and india are emerging industrial countries, china has just done a deal with malaysia over palm oil
> and the biggest polluting country in the world ( all pollution)
> has a leader who doesnt believe global warming is a thing, that alternate fuels need to be funded and that we will be the reason this earth become unviable ( im surprised hes not a flat earther as well)


Good points. It seems that some posters equate disagreeing with a prolonged protest to not caring about climate change.


----------



## Rafa

mrs phas said:


> tbf theyre causing more pollution by jamming streets than not
> plus rent a mob tactics
> and i notice rent a mouth was there today spouting off her hot air
> when will people realise that we can do what we can, even get things down to zero or negative numbers,
> but it
> will make no difference whilst china and india are emerging industrial countries, china has just done a deal with malaysia over palm oil
> and the biggest polluting country in the world ( all pollution)
> has a leader who doesnt believe global warming is a thing, that alternate fuels need to be funded and that we will be the reason this earth become unviable ( im surprised hes not a flat earther as well)


I agree.

I find attitude a big problem, when those who make their way out onto the streets, disrupting traffic and waving banners, automatically assume that those of us who choose not to do that, are doing nothing whatsoever to reduce our 'carbon footprint' as much as possible, and don't give a horse's petunia about climate change.

Education has to be better than intimidation.


----------



## catz4m8z

mrs phas said:


> will make no difference whilst china and india are emerging industrial countries, china has just done a deal with malaysia over palm oil
> and the biggest polluting country in the world ( all pollution)
> has a leader who doesnt believe global warming is a thing, that alternate fuels need to be funded and that we will be the reason this earth become unviable ( im surprised hes not a flat earther as well)


So what is the answer?? do nothing and hope all the scientists and experts are wrong?
I think I go with the 'shout louder and longer' approach if we arent being heard. Obviously some countries are worse then others but the do nothing approach is a global death sentence.


----------



## noushka05

mrs phas said:


> tbf theyre causing more pollution by jamming streets than not
> plus rent a mob tactics
> and i notice rent a mouth was there today spouting off her hot air
> when will people realise that we can do what we can, even get things down to zero or negative numbers,
> but it
> will make no difference whilst china and india are emerging industrial countries, china has just done a deal with malaysia over palm oil
> and the biggest polluting country in the world ( all pollution)
> has a leader who doesnt believe global warming is a thing, that alternate fuels need to be funded and that we will be the reason this earth become unviable ( im surprised hes not a flat earther as well)


While theres still hope & we still have time, millions of people across the globe intend to go down fighting, for the sake of our children, future generations & all the Earths amazing lifeforms.

Hopefully the Americans will vote for progressive leader this time who will ditch neoliberalism & implement their awesome Green deal.

USAs wonderful Alexandria Orcasia-Cortez narrates this brilliant video, explaining how we got in this mess & how we get out of it


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> Education has to be better than intimidatio


Education hasnt worked & we simply dont have time. Also no one is being intimidated.


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> So what is the answer?? do nothing and hope all the scientists and experts are wrong?
> I think I go with the 'shout louder and longer' approach if we arent being heard. Obviously some countries are worse then others but the do nothing approach is a global death sentence.


So you and Colette etc are going to join the protests and shout louder ?

I just dont think mayhem and chaos is the answer.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

kimthecat said:


> Oh dear. She been my hero for years .
> What has she done ?
> 
> Good points. It seems that some posters equate disagreeing with a prolonged protest to not caring about climate change.


I was being very unfair on Jane Goodall. She was in a British Airways advert last year but she quickly removed herself from it once she got a kicking in the Guardian from George Monbiot.

The money was probably going to her foundation so she should still be your hero. She seems a very genuine woman.


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I was being very unfair on Jane Goodall. She was in a British Airways advert last year but she quickly removed herself from it once she got a kicking in the Guardian from George Monbiot.
> 
> The money was probably going to her foundation so she should still be your hero. She seems a very genuine woman.


 Oh good.  Shes 85 now !
I think its nearly impossible to be totally green , everyone has to do the best they can .


----------



## Rafa

catz4m8z said:


> So what is the answer?? do nothing and hope all the scientists and experts are wrong?
> I think I go with the 'shout louder and longer' approach if we arent being heard. Obviously some countries are worse then others but the do nothing approach is a global death sentence.


So, what do you plan to do personally?


----------



## mrs phas

catz4m8z said:


> So what is the answer?? do nothing and hope all the scientists and experts are wrong?
> I think I go with the 'shout louder and longer' approach if we arent being heard. Obviously some countries are worse then others but the do nothing approach is a global death sentence.


And if the shout louder and longer approach doesnt work? what then? terrorism in the name of the planet? Once one starts shouting and realising that no ones llistening, then theres always a next step and a next and a next

if its one thing ive taken from my years in schools, and abroad, its that shouting longer and louder doesnt mean anyone understands, any more than before. Teaching and learning is better done with clear heads and calm debate which in turn leads to understanding and change
screaming in my face would just make me walk away, talk to me and i will not only listen, but i might learn something as well

peaceful talking and learning is the way forward, but until everyone sits down and pulls for the same thing we're all sitting in a leaky boat called earth


----------



## catz4m8z

noushka05 said:


> While theres still hope & we still have time, millions of people across the globe intend to go down fighting, for the sake of our children, future generations & all the Earths amazing lifeforms.





noushka05 said:


> Education hasnt worked & we simply dont have time.


I worry that it already is too late TBH. People are protesting and educating themselves now but there is such a landslide of ignorance, greed and apathy to fight againest that I wonder if we really do have the time?



Rafa said:


> So, what do you plan to do personally?


I probably dont do enough, I will admit that. Apparently the best things you can do personally for climate change is not to fly and eat a plant based diet so I have that covered. Also recycling as much as possible and reducing water consumption (although mine is already less then half of the average for my household size). Then just try and vote for which ever dirtbag politician seems to care the most about having a sustainable future on this planet.


----------



## Cleo38

mrs phas said:


> And if the shout louder and longer approach doesnt work? what then? terrorism in the name of the planet? Once one starts shouting and realising that no ones llistening, then theres always a next step and a next and a next
> 
> if its one thing ive taken from my years in schools, and abroad, *its that shouting longer and louder doesnt mean anyone understands*, any more than before. Teaching and learning is better done with clear heads and calm debate which in turn leads to understanding and change
> screaming in my face would just make me walk away, talk to me and i will not only listen, but i might learn something as well
> 
> peaceful talking and learning is the way forward, but until everyone sits down and pulls for the same thing we're all sitting in a leaky boat called earth


I completely agree, especially the part I have highlighted in bold. Shouting doesn't always mean you are heard & at times the message is just lost in amongst the noise. Someone commented earlier that the protest has people talking about climate change but has it really or are people just talking about the 'activists' & the disruption …


----------



## Elles

Nothing else has worked, but I wouldn’t worry about it. If they’re right and if nothing is done, being stuck in traffic because it’s bank holiday weekend, or because of eco warriors will be a faint memory. The planet will start to get rid of us at a faster rate and good riddance. 

The concern is spreading worldwide anyway, not just our backyard. I suppose people have to shout or the wealthy won’t hear in their bubbles of air con.

I expect it’ll be over soon and most people will move on.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> So who here went to the demo in London or other ones on Saturday ?


I wouldn't go to London unless I really had no choice and that wouldn't be for a demo however much I agreed with it. I can't breathe in our capital.


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> I worry that it already is too late TBH. People are protesting and educating themselves now but there is such a landslide of ignorance, greed and apathy to fight againest that I wonder if we really do have the time?
> 
> I probably dont do enough, I will admit that. Apparently the best things you can do personally for climate change is not to fly and eat a plant based diet so I have that covered. Also recycling as much as possible and reducing water consumption (although mine is already less then half of the average for my household size). Then just try and vote for which ever dirtbag politician seems to care the most about having a sustainable future on this planet.


Im sorry you are so worried. Im sure a lot of people are worried , I know I am. Everyone has to do the best they can within their capabilities.


----------



## Calvine

...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Calvine said:


> Motive was obviously money, methinks?


No, it was my mistake, it wasn't Emma Thompson who appeared in the BA advert.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I think its nearly impossible to be totally green , everyone has to do the best they can .


Yes, true. And, of course, it is rather depressing when you think you are ''doing your bit'' up to a point by recycling and then read that many of the processes used in recycling are actually harmful to the environment. I swapped cat food so I would not be using single-serve pouches, thinking, hey, me, the goodly one, I shall likely be canonised after I peg out, as I am now feeding my greedy lot from recycleable tins; then I read that recycling tins is not that wonderful. So maybe I won't become a saint after all.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I wouldn't go to London unless I really had no choice and that wouldn't be for a demo however much I agreed with it. I can't breathe in our capital.


Im on the outskirts , I dont go uptown much now as I'm not so mobile as I used to be.
I would only be able to do small local marches.
I think they should spread out the one day marches and not just target London. It seems that some members supporting the prolonged protests don't live here , didnt attend the London march and don't care who it affects because it's not their backyard. Anyone who suffers is a casualty of war .


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> No, it was my mistake, it wasn't Emma Thompson who appeared in the BA advert.


Thank you, yes, I spotted that, and have removed my post accordingly.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Yes, true. And, of course, it is rather depressing when you think you are ''doing your bit'' up to a point by recycling and then read that many of the processes used in recycling are actually harmful to the environment. I swapped cat food so I would not be using single-serve pouches, thinking, hey, me, the goodly one, I shall likely be canonised after I peg out, as I am now feeding my greedy lot from recycleable tins; then I read that recycling tins is not that wonderful. So maybe I won't become a saint after all.


 Its so confusing. It can also vary from council to council. Ours dont recycle black plastic food trays , we give ours to the RSPCA who use them as feeding dishes.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> It seems that some members supporting the prolonged protests don't live here


They probably use gallons of petrol to get here . . . or come by train and glue themselves to it!


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Ours dont recycle black plastic food trays


I am fairly sure I read that there are about seven types of plastic and only two of them can be recycled, and yes, a lot of items say on them ''check with local council'' (good luck with that).


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> They probably use gallons of petrol to get here . . . or come by train and glue themselves to it!


Like I said many people from down here in the south west car shared, hired buses and used public transport. However, isn't that kind of the point? That there is no alternative, but the tech is there for there to be. If governments/corps etc put money into it, subsidised it and progressed the research, we wouldn't be driving petrol cars.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> However, isn't that kind of the point?


 I think the point someone was making/trying to make was that if they stayed closer to home they would create less pollution thro' travelling. Anyone know how they got the boat there (and what exactly was the point of it?).


----------



## Colette

I'm not out protesting for various reasons, but I completely understand why people are doing it. I'm more inclined to be up in arms about the people at the top responsible for this mess than those trying to get it fixed.

As for what I'm doing... As much as I can. I haven't flown in years and have no intention of doing so for the next few years at least. I am not having children so that's another of the 'big 4' boxes ticked. I've given up meat and reduced my intake of eggs and dairy. I am hoping to go full vegan eventually. OH is vegan already. Our household is run with the planet in mind... recycling, composting, saving water, trying to reduce energy use, switching to a green energy supplier, buying a lot of stuff second hand, eco friendly toiletries and cleaning products, attempting (with limited success lol) to grow some of our own fruit and veg, planting pollinator friendly flowers, signing petitions, emailing MPs, MEPs, and various others....

Is it enough? Alone, hell no. Fortunately I'm not the only one trying to live a more sustainable lifestyle.

But without serious intervention at the higher levels of society, ie legislative changes across the globe, it won't be enough. 

Even so I'd rather be part of the solution than to sit back watching the world burn knowing I did nothing.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I was being very unfair on Jane Goodall. She was in a British Airways advert last year but she quickly removed herself from it once she got a kicking in the Guardian from George Monbiot.
> 
> The money was probably going to her foundation so she should still be your hero. She seems a very genuine woman.


Has she removed herself from it? Shes a hero to many people, me included & a lot of us were extremely disappointed at seeing her in that ad ( I was sad to see Paloma Faith in it too!)

For the record, this is what George actually said. As he rightly points out climate change threatens to destroy everything she loves . And she knows it.



















She supports the activists because she understands the urgency, despite the ad I hope all her fans will heed her words.

._..young people around the world understand the problems...we need to empower them to take action.

Its time we all joined them. Its time we raised our voices. Its time to take action & the time is now. We must urge our governments to make decisions that will benefit future generations & will benefit mother Earth.

Join us, its time to REBEL. _








kimthecat said:


> Oh good.  Shes 85 now !
> I think its nearly impossible to be totally green , everyone has to do the best they can .


She was promoting an airline. The aviation industry is one of the big contributors of C02. She really should know better.



catz4m8z said:


> I worry that it already is too late TBH. People are protesting and educating themselves now but there is such a landslide of ignorance, greed and apathy to fight againest that I wonder if we really do have the time?
> 
> I probably dont do enough, I will admit that. Apparently the best things you can do personally for climate change is not to fly and eat a plant based diet so I have that covered. Also recycling as much as possible and reducing water consumption (although mine is already less then half of the average for my household size). Then just try and vote for which ever dirtbag politician seems to care the most about having a sustainable future on this planet.


All we can go on is the advise of the climate scientists I guess.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> So who here went to the demo in London or other ones on Saturday ?


Me


----------



## MollySmith

Colette said:


> I'm not out protesting for various reasons, but I completely understand why people are doing it. I'm more inclined to be up in arms about the people at the top responsible for this mess than those trying to get it fixed.
> 
> As for what I'm doing... As much as I can. I haven't flown in years and have no intention of doing so for the next few years at least. I am not having children so that's another of the 'big 4' boxes ticked. I've given up meat and reduced my intake of eggs and dairy. I am hoping to go full vegan eventually. OH is vegan already. Our household is run with the planet in mind... recycling, composting, saving water, trying to reduce energy use, switching to a green energy supplier, buying a lot of stuff second hand, eco friendly toiletries and cleaning products, attempting (with limited success lol) to grow some of our own fruit and veg, planting pollinator friendly flowers, signing petitions, emailing MPs, MEPs, and various others....
> 
> Is it enough? Alone, hell no. Fortunately I'm not the only one trying to live a more sustainable lifestyle.
> 
> But without serious intervention at the higher levels of society, ie legislative changes across the globe, it won't be enough.
> 
> Even so I'd rather be part of the solution than to sit back watching the world burn knowing I did nothing.


Good for you and I can echo your actions except my choices about not being a parent were sadly not mine and I don't touch supermarkets, and grow almost 50% of our food with support from a veg box. My bad is my car, a 4x4 but we use it rarely so I'd rather hang on to it than sell to someone who'd use it more. I do not fly or go on cruises.

I did go today but only because I can go by train. If I had to drive I would not. The more who make manageable changes the more impact we make.


----------



## noushka05

For anyone who didn't see George Monbiot on Frankie Boyles New World Order. This is what we have to do to save the planet.

Overthrow capitalism.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

You know what, Noushka, I'm really tired of listening to George telling me how I should live my life. (And you, actually.) Even more so than the celebrity hypocrites.

Hypocrite George Monbiot Condemns Large, Expensive Homes - Except His Own.

It seems that George doesn't want plebs like me to have the same luxuries as him. He certainly wouldn't allow me to walk my dogs on his one acre of land.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

"Overthrow capitalism"

And there we have it. It's nothing to do with climate change. It's a political ideal.


----------



## Cleo38

samuelsmiles3 said:


> You know what, Noushka, I'm really tired of listening to George telling me how I should live my life. (And you, actually.) Even more so than the celebrity hypocrites.
> 
> Hypocrite George Monbiot Condemns Large, Expensive Homes - Except His Own.
> 
> It seems that George doesn't want plebs like me to have the same luxuries as him. He certainly wouldn't allow me to walk my dogs on his one acre of land.


So people like me should be taxed so heavily because I live on my own & dare to have more bedrooms than he deems I need, & be forced to take in lodgers or move ……


----------



## samuelsmiles3

A note to the Extinction Rebels. If you want to see what hell looks like - take fossil fuels out of our civilisation.

Nighty night.


----------



## kimthecat

Colette said:


> I'm not out protesting for various reasons, but I completely understand why people are doing it. I'm more inclined to be up in arms about the people at the top responsible for this mess than those trying to get it fixed.
> 
> As for what I'm doing... As much as I can. I haven't flown in years and have no intention of doing so for the next few years at least. I am not having children so that's another of the 'big 4' boxes ticked. I've given up meat and reduced my intake of eggs and dairy. I am hoping to go full vegan eventually. OH is vegan already. Our household is run with the planet in mind... recycling, composting, saving water, trying to reduce energy use, switching to a green energy supplier, buying a lot of stuff second hand, eco friendly toiletries and cleaning products, attempting (with limited success lol) to grow some of our own fruit and veg, planting pollinator friendly flowers, signing petitions, emailing MPs, MEPs, and various others....
> 
> Is it enough? Alone, hell no. Fortunately I'm not the only one trying to live a more sustainable lifestyle.
> 
> But without serious intervention at the higher levels of society, ie legislative changes across the globe, it won't be enough.
> 
> Even so I'd rather be part of the solution than to sit back watching the world burn knowing I did nothing.


Thats good . I think that we are doing the mainly the same things as you .

I think its unfair for anyone to say that we aren't doing anything because we don;t agree with the protests running on or don't seem upset enough about climate change . Being upset and ranting on a forum is just that . Its not doing anything except perhaps wasting electricity. It's a matter of opinion , our opinions on this forum don't change anything in real life .


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Me


Well done. I hope you didn't glue yourself to anything !


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> They probably use gallons of petrol to get here . . . or come by train and glue themselves to it!


I don't advocate glue use! But as far as transport use, we all have to travel somehow. Before unleaded fuel, we had to travel with lead petrol until a greater body changed that. Most folk had tried to make the journey by public transport and there were localised events that meant travel wasn't necessary (I completely agree with you about celebrities btw). But sometimes the choice isn't there and one has to use a system to find the faults.

I also wanted to reply to the one has to be vegan to protest which @Elles made and others that George Monbiot mentions here. Everyone has a right to protest and he says so more sensibly than me. But I don't think we should set limiters on who can. I'm not 100% vegan but I will damm well have my say because I care, because I have a low carbon footprint for other life changes beyond my diet. For what it's worth I saw no extra litter today from those who seem to be supporting ER but I can't say the same for spectators.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vent-ecological-apocalypse-civil-disobedience


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Well done. I hope you didn't glue yourself to anything !


Awh thank you x

Back in once piece and went by train. I wasn't there for long, it was busy and hot (that's climate change!)


----------



## Elles

“I wish all these eco warriors would at least go plant based though, that would do a fair bit. “

Is what I said. I didn’t say anyone has to be vegan to protest.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

MollySmith said:


> Awh thank you x
> 
> Back in once piece and went by train. I wasn't there for long, it was busy and *hot (that's climate change!)*


Molly, that's a weather event, not climate change.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> "I wish all these eco warriors would at least go plant based though, that would do a fair bit. "
> 
> Is what I said. I didn't say anyone has to be vegan to protest.


I read that as something else, thank you for the clarification


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> You know what, Noushka, I'm really tired of listening to George telling me how I should live my life. (And you, actually.) Even more so than the celebrity hypocrites.
> 
> Hypocrite George Monbiot Condemns Large, Expensive Homes - Except His Own.
> 
> It seems that George doesn't want plebs like me to have the same luxuries as him. He certainly wouldn't allow me to walk my dogs on his one acre of land.


Putting the argument across that if we carry on with our current unsustainable model we will destroy our planet - & ultimately ourselves isn't telling you what to do, I'm stating my opinion( which happens to be supported by facts), the same as you are. And its no surprise that you believe a blogger lol Bloggers trump world leading climate scientists for you lol.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> "Overthrow capitalism"
> 
> And there we have it. It's nothing to do with climate change. It's a political ideal.


Capitalism (& its current rampant form, neoliberalism) has EVERYTHING to do with climate change. . I have asked you several times if you believe we can have infinite growth on a finite planet? Telling you have never answered.



Cleo38 said:


> So people like me should be taxed so heavily because I live on my own & dare to have more bedrooms than he deems I need, & be forced to take in lodgers or move ……


Hes saying we must change our entire system to avert disaster. George Monbiot is one of the few journalists who, in the name of transparency, lists his sources of income. He owns a house in Wales as Samuels blogger claims - but George rents it out to a cooperative. https://www.monbiot.com/registry-of-interests/

We all live within the capitalist system - but some of want to change it because we think more important to save the living planet than it is to stick with our current destructive economic system. #
Its bizarre to me that maintaining economic growth is sacrosanct & trumps saving our planet, but there you go.

You can't spend money on a dead planet as they say.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> A note to the Extinction Rebels. I*f you want to see what hell looks like - take fossil fuels out of our civilisation.*
> 
> Nighty night.


And there we have it............................


----------



## noushka05

Seems climate change has finally gone mainstream in the financial world.

*UK's biggest money manager warns on climate catastrophe*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47941180


----------



## Magyarmum

catz4m8z said:


> I worry that it already is too late TBH. People are protesting and educating themselves now but there is such a landslide of ignorance, greed and apathy to fight againest that I wonder if we really do have the time?
> 
> I probably dont do enough, I will admit that. Apparently the best things you can do personally for climate change is not to fly and eat a plant based diet so I have that covered. Also recycling as much as possible and reducing water consumption (although mine is already less then half of the average for my household size). Then just try and vote for which ever dirtbag politician seems to care the most about having a sustainable future on this planet.


One of the reasons I moved to Hungary was because I could explore the rest of Europe without having to take a plane to get there. As I live 12 miles from the nearest supermarket I need a car but try to use it as little as possible. I no longer use it to go on holiday but instead have chosen coach tours. I'm off in a couple of weeks to explore the Czech Republic.

I'm a vegetarian having decided because I don't read Hungarian/Polish/ Slovakian/German or Romanian I'd be fighting a losing battle trying to read labels on packets to become vegan. I grow my own vegetables, and have pear, plum, cherry and walnut trees in my garden, the top half of which is meadow. My pride and joy is my compost heap. And I have my own well!

Recycling is a problem because the dustmen haven't discovered it yet and to cart cans, bottles and plastic trays into town to dispose of them is a hassle! Some good news is that Hungary plans to phase out coal by 2030 and at the moment is investing money in building solar parks all over the country - we have one I pass on my way to town.

Not much maybe, but every little bit helps!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Pink climate boat towed away after Dame Emma Thompson rallies activists

Dame Emma, who also joined demonstrators on Thursday, added: "We have seriously failed them and our planet is in serious trouble, we have much, much less time than we thought.
"I have seen the evidence for myself and I really care about my children and grandchildren enough to want to be here today to stand with the next generation." But *after flying in from the US, she told ITV News that she would not travel economy class, saying: "I bloody don't. No!"
*
So, our planet is in "serious trouble" but I will not share a cabin with the poor people. Maybe not so serious for Emma*, *then*. *Remarkable*. *


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> Hes saying we must change our entire system to avert disaster. George Monbiot is one of the few journalists who, in the name of transparency, lists his sources of income. He owns a house in Wales as Samuels blogger claims - but George rents it out to a cooperative. https://www.monbiot.com/registry-of-interests/


Well lucky him for being able to afford to have 2 properties, many of us struggle to afford the one! Maybe Emma T & her chums can buy up all the properties us single people are 'selfishly' living in when we are taxed so heavily that we can't afford our own homes anymore ….



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Pink climate boat towed away after Dame Emma Thompson rallies activists
> 
> Dame Emma, who also joined demonstrators on Thursday, added: "We have seriously failed them and our planet is in serious trouble, we have much, much less time than we thought.
> "I have seen the evidence for myself and I really care about my children and grandchildren enough to want to be here today to stand with the next generation." But *after flying in from the US, she told ITV News that she would not travel economy class, saying: "I bloody don't. No!"
> *
> So, our planet is in "serious trouble" but I will not share a cabin with the poor people. Maybe not so serious for Emma*, *then*. *Remarkable*. *


Hahaha, sit next to poor people?! Not unless they are 'really' poor & there is a photo opportunity surely


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> Well lucky him for being able to afford to have 2 properties, many of us struggle to afford the one


He's a similar age to me & my hubby, we have paid our mortgage off & could probably afford to but another property - so what? (doesnt mean we would)Does this mean we're hypocritical to want to change to a sustainable model? Young people today are struggling to buy/struggling to rent because of the current economic system. Rather than attacking the man, why not address the argument Cleo? Hes saying the current economic model is destroying the planet - do you dispute this is true?


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> So, our planet is in "serious trouble" but I will not share a cabin with the poor people. Maybe not so serious for Emma*, *then*. *Remarkable*. *


This just about sums it up, don't you think. Not even an _attempt_ to hide the, ''Listen to me, underlings, I'm a celeb'' attitude. I read that she also said she would like to be arrested (may or not be true). I used to like this woman but after that, I think she's just like all the other ''celebs'' who jump on a popular bandwagon for publicity. It's like all the ''celebs'' who informed us that they were going to take in migrants in 2016 but never informed us that they actually had, so we have to assume they never did and it was all just a pile of virtue-signalling bullshit.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> This just about sums it up, don't you think. Not even an _attempt_ to hide the, ''Listen to me, underlings, I'm a celeb'' attitude. I read that she also said she would like to be arrested (may or not be true). I used to like this woman but after that, I think she's just like all the other ''celebs'' who jump on a popular bandwagon for publicity. It's like all the ''celebs'' who informed us that they were going to take in migrants in 2016 but never informed us that they actually had, so we have to assume they never did and it was all just a pile of virtue-signalling bullshit.


Don't listen to hypocritical celebrities then, listen to the experts instead. Who warn we have a tiny window of opportunity to act or we face the collapse of our civilisation.

......................................................................


----------



## catz4m8z

noushka05 said:


> Don't listen to hypocritical celebrities then, listen to the experts instead. Who warn we have a tiny window of opportunity to act or we face the collapse of our civilisation.
> 
> ......................................................................


nah...much easier to just b**ch about Emma T and go on about the potential litter protesters might leave! Who needs experts and science when we have tabloid newspapers and Youtube!
Its all a leftie hoax anyways. Who says we need food and water and 'decent' living conditions anyways?? thats right! those 'experts'! 
Dont fall for it!!!

(sorry...just felt I wasnt giving the other side enough benefit of the doubt. :Hilarious).


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> This just about sums it up, don't you think. Not even an _attempt_ to hide the, ''Listen to me, underlings, I'm a celeb'' attitude. I read that she also said she would like to be arrested (may or not be true). I used to like this woman but after that, I think she's just like all the other ''celebs'' who jump on a popular bandwagon for publicity. It's like all the ''celebs'' who informed us that they were going to take in migrants in 2016 but never informed us that they actually had, so we have to assume they never did and it was all just a pile of virtue-signalling bullshit.


Yes she did say it (about being arrested) It was on tv news. I thought her whole attitude stank, right down to her dungarees. Maybe it's down to her flying into Heathrow that Heathrow didn't get blocked though and the plebs can still go on their unnecessary holidays.

There are more tactful and kinder celebs who could put their names to it and I don't think her ego should have been pandered to. I suppose a lot of people are in awe of celebrity, but I think people with attitudes like hers turn more people off than anything else.


----------



## MollySmith

HERE IS A PETITION!

Sorry for caps I could see it getting lost, from Greenpeace
https://secure.greenpeace.org.uk/pa...ace&utm_medium=FB&utm_campaign=ECCLNAPEFB02A0


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> nah...much easier to just b**ch about Emma T and go on about the potential litter protesters might leave! Who needs experts and science when we have tabloid newspapers and Youtube!
> Its all a leftie hoax anyways. Who says we need food and water and 'decent' living conditions anyways?? thats right! those 'experts'!
> Dont fall for it!!!
> (sorry...just felt I wasnt giving the other side enough benefit of the doubt. :Hilarious).



Don't see whats wrong with pointing our peoples hypocrisy. If we can be bitchy about it , its all the more fun 

I bet she has a dishwasher 
Seriously , they should be banned in domestic homes !


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Don't see whats wrong with pointing our peoples hypocrisy. If we can be bitchy about it , its all the more fun
> 
> I bet she has a dishwasher
> Seriously , they should be banned in domestic homes !


Of course she hasn't, what on earth gave you that idea?

I bet she has a Mrs Mop wot comes in and "does" for her, three times a week,so she doesn't have to wash dishes just leaves them in the sink for her wot does, to do!:Smug

Conserving water an all that jazz you know!:Yawn


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Don't see whats wrong with pointing our peoples hypocrisy. If we can be bitchy about it , its all the more fun
> 
> I bet she has a dishwasher
> Seriously , they should be banned in domestic homes !


I don`t own a dishwasher but I have been told several times they are more environmentally friendly than washing by hand. I can`t fit one in anyway and there is only the two of us but it seems trying to do the best you can is somewhat confusing!


----------



## catz4m8z

3dogs2cats said:


> I don`t own a dishwasher but I have been told several times they are more environmentally friendly than washing by hand. I can`t fit one in anyway and there is only the two of us but it seems trying to do the best you can is somewhat confusing!


I can highly recomend having a broken boiler and no access to running hot water. Really makes you think about how much water you actually need and use it wisely!


----------



## Elles

3dogs2cats said:


> I don`t own a dishwasher but I have been told several times they are more environmentally friendly than washing by hand. I can`t fit one in anyway and there is only the two of us but it seems trying to do the best you can is somewhat confusing!


Yeah over the years we've been given all kinds of crappy and contradictory advice by various experts and 'none experts'. Now we're getting the blame for using tech and products we were sold, told to use and made to think were better. We have kids crying because we're all going to die and luvvies like Emma Thompson flying in from her birthday party to say we should all be ashamed whilst grinning about the possibility of being arrested.

Which experts are we supposed to believe this week when deciding what to do next?

Coincidentally we've had a broken boiler that gave up the ghost. Our local plumber chap is in the kitchen fitting a new one right now.


----------



## Magyarmum

catz4m8z said:


> I can highly recomend having a broken boiler and no access to running hot water. Really makes you think about how much water you actually need and use it wisely!


Tell me about it.

My house was just a shell when I moved in. No kitchen, bathroom or electricity, just an outside tap and a privy with no door on it, halfway up the garden. No furniture either and for the four months before it arrived from SA I slept on a pile of cardboard padded with all the clothes I'd got. Great fun!

Mind you I once lived in a garden shed for nearly a year where everything had to be hung from the rafters to stop the rats chewing them.


----------



## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> I bet she has a dishwasher


Hey! Hands off my dishwasher!!
We have a well and a septic tank, all our water basically stays on our property and gets recycled. Does that count?

Seriously though, trying to do 'right' environmentally, ethically, health-wise etc. can do your head in. 
I have a dishwasher, but I have a well, is that okay?
I try to avoid plastic, so I order my shampoo bar from amazon, and it comes - with plastic bubble wrap! 
My mother and aunt live 1000 miles away, is it more environmentally friendly to drive to see her or fly? I genuinely don't know?
We bought better insulated windows for our house, but still run the AC in the summer. 
I eat vegan, but I don't shop all local, would it be better to be more local and less vegan, or more vegan and less local?

How is one to know what to do?
I think the best any of us can do is just that - do our best. And 'best' looks different for everyone. 
What's that saying? Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. That's all any of us can do....


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> My mother and aunt live 1000 miles away, is it more environmentally friendly to drive to see her or fly? I genuinely don't know?


I worked with someone who owns a plane, I am obviously talking a small one. It's gone over my head what type it was sorry He has family in France. He flies to France to see his relatives. People often are aghast at say the cost for him. It costs for him very little fuel. Does this equate to lesser emissions; possibly again I dont know anything about planes. I also know he's not a millionaire, he's not got loads of assets etc. He just holds one of those pilot license. He obviously wanted to achieve that dream. It's benefited him to see his family.


----------



## Calvine

Rafa said:


> Sir David Attenborough has been the one who, through his last documentary,has really highlighted the problem of plastic in the oceans and the harm it causes.
> 
> Difficult to imagine him rampaging around London, smashing windows.


He is a neighbour of mine . . . and yes, he manages to get the point over by simply stating the facts in a clear and knowledgeable way. He is not out to get publicity or scare children to death (he doesn't need it) and is modest, unassuming and totally unpretentious. No, I could not see him at work with the superglue or leaving Easter eggs for Jeremy Corbyn after tying himself to the fence.



Elles said:


> I thought her whole attitude stank,


To be honest, @Elles - call me cynical if you like - but my guess is that if the reporters and cameras disappeared, the whole thing would fade into oblivion. In fact, I bet many people in other parts of the UK have never heard of this lot. When the luvvies Jude Law and Lily Allen went to Calais to tell us how concerned they were and what we should be doing, there was a very obvious media presence (who had likely been tipped off that there would be ''celebs'' in the camp on a certain day). Amusingly enough, one of Jude Law's bodyguards was mugged and his mobile and wallet taken :Hilarious . . . that will show you how impressed the migrants were with their visit!


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> I don`t own a dishwasher but I have been told several times they are more environmentally friendly than washing by hand. I can`t fit one in anyway and there is only the two of us but it seems trying to do the best you can is somewhat confusing!


 I was thinking about the electricity it uses. I don't have a tumble dryer either. I use the washing machine about twice a week .


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> He is a neighbour of mine . . . and yes, he manages to get the point over by simply stating the facts in a clear and knowledgeable way. He is not out to get publicity or scare children to death (he doesn't need it) and is modest, unassuming and totally unpretentious. No, I could not see him at work with the superglue or leaving Easter eggs for Jeremy Corbyn after tying himself to the fence.
> 
> To be honest, @Elles - call me cynical if you like - but my guess is that if the reporters and cameras disappeared, the whole thing would fade into oblivion. In fact, I bet many people in other parts of the UK have never heard of this lot. When the luvvies Jude Law and Lily Allen went to Calais to tell us how concerned they were and what we should be doing, there was a very obvious media presence (who had likely been tipped off that there would be ''celebs'' in the camp on a certain day). Amusingly enough, one of Jude Law's bodyguards was mugged and his mobile and wallet taken :Hilarious . . . that will show you how impressed the migrants were with their visit!


What so far nobody has mentioned .... or perhaps they're not aware of the fact that there's a similar protest going on in Paris which has nothing to do with the Gilets Jaune protests!

https://www.france24.com/en/20190419-french-climate-activists-protest-la-defense-total

*Hundreds of climate activists staged a protest in Paris's business district of La Défense on Friday morning to highlight the "toxic alliance" between the French state and multinationals that they accuse of being responsible for global warming.*


----------



## kimthecat

O2.0 said:


> Hey! Hands off my dishwasher!!
> We have a well and a septic tank, all our water basically stays on our property and gets recycled. Does that count?
> 
> Seriously though, trying to do 'right' environmentally, ethically, health-wise etc. can do your head in.
> I have a dishwasher, but I have a well, is that okay?
> I try to avoid plastic, so I order my shampoo bar from amazon, and it comes - with plastic bubble wrap!
> My mother and aunt live 1000 miles away, is it more environmentally friendly to drive to see her or fly? I genuinely don't know?
> We bought better insulated windows for our house, but still run the AC in the summer.
> I eat vegan, but I don't shop all local, would it be better to be more local and less vegan, or more vegan and less local?
> 
> How is one to know what to do?
> I think the best any of us can do is just that - do our best. And 'best' looks different for everyone.
> What's that saying? Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. That's all any of us can do....


I have a dishwasher - my OH 
I was a dishwasher virgin until last year when I used one in a holiday lodge . I can see the attraction!


----------



## MollySmith

I do have a dishwasher but with two of us it’s slimline and we only run it on eco once a day. I also have a very glam bucket in the shower so we collect grey water which I use in our front garden. I do this almost all year and store in a water-but that isn’t connected to a gutter. We have three others which are connected to outhouse gutters in the back garden with drip feeds. 

I have never owned a tumble dryer. We have a perfectly good garden with a long line and a Lakeland hot aired thingymebob that we might use overnight. 

Like others (and as already mentioned elsewhere on here) we are phasing our plastic - really hard, palm oil, grow our own, use refills for any products were possible and shop local. I eat seasonal to avoid air miles and cycle. We do not fly or take cruises.


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> What so far nobody has mentioned .... or perhaps they're not aware of the fact that there's a similar protest going on in Paris which has nothing to do with the Gilets Jaune protests!
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/20190419-french-climate-activists-protest-la-defense-total
> 
> *Hundreds of climate activists staged a protest in Paris's business district of La Défense on Friday morning to highlight the "toxic alliance" between the French state and multinationals that they accuse of being responsible for global warming.*


It's been on the news. Not so friendly and peaceful as ours.


----------



## catz4m8z

Calvine said:


> He is a neighbour of mine . . . and yes, he manages to get the point over by simply stating the facts in a clear and knowledgeable way. He is not out to get publicity or scare children to death (he doesn't need it) and is modest, unassuming and totally unpretentious. No, I could not see him at work with the superglue or leaving Easter eggs for Jeremy Corbyn after tying himself to the fence.


TBF though Sir David Attenborough could tell me almost anything about the environment and Id believe him no questions asked! He has such gravitas and over 50 yrs of documentaries behind him. I doubt he would be down there protesting though as he's over 90!


----------



## O2.0

For anyone like me who's confused about not just what to do, what what things will make the biggest impact, I found this thought provoking and informative though it does take a few minutes to complete 

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/04/specials/climate-change-solutions-quiz/index.html


----------



## Elles

Spoiler alert, but only one answer. 





The first question, the number 1 answer was throw away less food, which was awkward because I personally rarely throw away food, because I make it and then eat it, composting is throwing away less food and plants don’t go off like meat and dairy do, so there’s be less thrown away if we all went plant based. So I wasn’t sure what it meant. Then I read the comment and it said eating less meat would mean throwing less away and gave up. :Hilarious

What was it you were saying about confused? :Woot

I’ll try again tomorrow when I’m more awake.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Don't see whats wrong with pointing our peoples hypocrisy. If we can be bitchy about it , its all the more fun
> 
> I bet she has a dishwasher
> Seriously , they should be banned in domestic homes !


There is nothing wrong with it, except when its being used as a distraction to undermine the climate science or to deflect away from the radical changes we must make to our entire economy & way of life it we are to avert catastrophe.



Calvine said:


> He is a neighbour of mine . . . and yes, he manages to get the point over by simply stating the facts in a clear and knowledgeable way. He is not out to get publicity or scare children to death (he doesn't need it) and is modest, unassuming and totally unpretentious. No, I could not see him at work with the superglue or leaving Easter eggs for Jeremy Corbyn after tying himself to the fence.


If this threads anything to go by he clearly hasn't got the point over on his 'Climate change the facts' documentary lol

And if the facts he relayed to us about climate change _didn't_ scare those who watched it to death then they must be in deep denial._ "In the 20 years since I first started talking about the impact of climate change on our world, conditions have changed far faster than I ever imagined,_" Attenborough says._ "It may sound frightening, but the scientific evidence is that if we have not taken dramatic action within the next decade, we could face irreversible damage to the natural world, and the collapse of our societies."_

Also, the schoolgirl who inspired the school strikes for the climate was actually featured on the programme.

David Attenborough praises the activists: Attenborough praises her action along with others across the world in the BBC film, saying that _"there's a message for all of us in the voices of these young people. It is after all their generation who will inherit this dangerous legacy."_

*Schoolgirl activist Greta Thunberg joins David Attenborough for powerful new BBC1 climate change documentary*
Young and old unite to warn of the "man-made disaster" of global warming












Calvine said:


> that will show you how impressed the migrants were with their visit!


OMG.


----------



## noushka05

A couple of really important things which I don't think have been mentioned about, what, as individuals we can do. One is to switch to a green energy supplier. We're with the greenest company - Ecotricity. https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/

Secondly & probably most importantly is to choose your political representatives wisely. Its no good saying you care about the planet then voting for someone like Trump or Gove, Mogg et al. UKIP dont even believe in climate change & neither do a chunk of the tories & most of those that say they do believe the science clearly don't see saving the planet as a priority. Its easy to check out the voting history of UK politicians - you can easily find out where they stand on environmental issues & climate change. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/

I notice Anna Soubry got owned on twitter the other day. This was Owen Jones response.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Molly, that's a weather event, not climate change.


The UK weather is getting warmer, the long term trend shows temperatures are rising. Our climate is changing. TBH I don't need scientific evidence to tell me that - I've been alive long enough to experience the changes for myself.


----------



## noushka05

Well done David  David has got the point across to some people


----------



## samuelsmiles3

noushka05 said:


> The UK weather is getting warmer, the long term trend shows temperatures are rising. Our climate is changing. TBH I don't need scientific evidence to tell me that - I've been alive long enough to experience the changes for myself.


Molly attributed a warm April day to 'climate change.' It was a weather event, and not once, not on any occasion, have I claimed that the climate is not changing or our climate is warming.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I bet she has a dishwasher


I bet she has a few. I read quite recently that the latest ''must have'' trend is a two-dishwasher kitchen.


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Molly attributed a warm April day to 'climate change.' It was a weather event, and not once, not on any occasion, have I claimed that the climate is not changing or our climate is warming.


Extremes of weather are a result of climate change but I have refrained from comment as that maybe something you wish to debate with @noushka05 on the climate change thread, it felt a bit off topic here.


----------



## MollySmith

This sums it up. I don't think anyone anywhere wants to watch species die, see lives ended due to floods and extreme temperature. But when we turn to a tv reporter, journalists and unsung heroes of science and still the Governments of the world do bugger all, no wonder protest is the only way to make ourselves heard.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Molly attributed a warm April day to 'climate change.' It was a weather event, and not once, not on any occasion, have I claimed that the climate is not changing or our climate is warming.


No you cant attribute a single weather anomaly to climate change - but these weather anomalies are becoming more & more frequent. The the long term trend shows it is getting warmer & warmer - this is climate change.

You deny the science that human activity is driving global warming Samuel. You even believe we can just carry on burning fossil fuels. You are a climate change denier.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> debate with @noushka05


People have kept trying (to debate), but it is rather a forlorn hope and becomes a one-sided monologue.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> People keep trying (to debate), but it is rather a forlorn hope and becomes a one-sided monologue.


I thought you had me on ignore? Instead of trolling me & trying to shut me down (which you will never do), why not ask the mods to just ban me from the forum?


----------



## catz4m8z

TBF Noush in a 100 years when our childrens children are living in a Mad Max movie we will all be dead so they can safely deny climate change without worrying about the personal consequences!
(btw this is how I see the future....Mad Max movies.....only with less Tina Turner).


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> TBF Noush in a 100 years when our childrens children are living in a Mad Max movie we will all be dead so they can safely deny climate change without worrying about the personal consequences!
> (btw this is how I see the future....Mad Max movies.....only with less Tina Turner).


In a hundred years time , the population of the earth will be billions more , so even if there is no nuclear war and climate change is reversed its not going to hunky dory , I would expect the future generations to be living in a nightmare.

ETA if anyones interested ,according to my diary when I was 13 , the Easter holiday was very hot too and I spent Easter Monday at the local riding school grooming the ponies and cleaning tack in exchange for a ride.


----------



## Elles

In the 70s I forget which year, 76/77 maybe? I was working at Butlins Skegness. It was a heatwave and there was a plague of ladybirds. Do I remember that right?


----------



## lullabydream

Elles said:


> In the 70s I forget which year, 76/77 maybe? I was working at Butlins Skegness. It was a heatwave and there was a plague of ladybirds. Do I remember that right?


Wasn't 76 the heatwave..I was only just born!


----------



## mrs phas

76 heatwave
77 ladybirds
first time i discovered ladybirds could bite and bite hard
I was 15 in 76


----------



## Elles

I must have mixed the two up. It snowed in May in Surrey, then there was a heatwave and I remember ladybirds. Maybe it was flying ants and the next year was the ladybirds then lol.


----------



## Elles

I was just going to apologise for taking the thread off topic, then remembered it’s my thread. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

I wasn't living in the UK in 1976 but I do remember well that in June of 1975 when I was living in Grantham we had a heatwave followed by snow.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/snow-scenes-june-1975---9375720

*Snow scenes from June 1975 - and we've been moaning about the cold!*


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> I wasn't living in the UK in 1976 but I do remember well that in June of 1975 when I was living in Grantham we had a heatwave followed by snow.
> 
> https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/snow-scenes-june-1975---9375720
> 
> *Snow scenes from June 1975 - and we've been moaning about the cold!*


Thank you!
I had told my children I remember it snowing on my birthday once and they didn't believe me
Now I can show them!


----------



## noushka05

catz4m8z said:


> TBF Noush in a 100 years when our childrens children are living in a Mad Max movie we will all be dead so they can safely deny climate change without worrying about the personal consequences!
> (btw this is how I see the future....Mad Max movies.....only with less Tina Turner).


True! No wonder informed kids feel so betrayed by the older generations.

Thing is we're playing a deadly experiment with our climate so some of those denying the science may even be alive to experience this Mad Max apocalypse for themselves. No doubt they'll still be in denial about the cause of their living hell though (they'll blame it all on Jeremy Corbyn probably)

Less Tina Turner - less Tom Hardy!:Jawdrop



kimthecat said:


> In a hundred years time , the population of the earth will be billions more , so even if there is no nuclear war and climate change is reversed its not going to hunky dory , I would expect the future generations to be living in a nightmare.
> 
> .


I've never understood this kind of attitude. Its like saying lets not bother fighting to save the whale because they will go extinct anyway. And as it happens a recent study has suggested the global population will plateau before we reach 100 years. If we led sustainable lives & addressed inequity there would be enough resources for all.



kimthecat said:


> ETA if anyones interested ,according to my diary when I was 13 , the Easter holiday was very hot too and I spent Easter Monday at the local riding school grooming the ponies and cleaning tack in exchange for a ride.





Magyarmum said:


> I wasn't living in the UK in 1976 but I do remember well that in June of 1975 when I was living in Grantham we had a heatwave followed by snow.
> 
> https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/snow-scenes-june-1975---9375720
> 
> *Snow scenes from June 1975 - and we've been moaning about the cold!*


 The heatwave of 1976 was just in one small part of the world, it was not global. This is about a global situation, not what a season is like in the UK. Average temperatures in the UK are rising - global temperature are rising! - the Earth is getting warmer & warmer. If we do not take urgent radical action it will keep getting hotter & we will go over the tipping point of no return, where it becomes runaway & irreversible. This means dangerous climate change will occur, which will release feedback loops, which will lead to more warming because of the release of stored methane etc, which will drive further warming regardless of whether we reduce our carbon emissions.

Please see these maps to understand the difference between 1976 (or 1975! ) and now.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> True! No wonder informed kids feel so betrayed by the older generations.
> 
> Thing is we're playing a deadly experiment with our climate so some of those denying the science may even be alive to experience this Mad Max apocalypse for themselves. No doubt they'll still be in denial about the cause of their living hell though (they'll blame it all on Jeremy Corbyn probably)
> 
> Less Tina Turner - less Tom Hardy!:Jawdrop
> 
> I've never understood this kind of attitude. Its like saying lets not bother fighting to save the whale because they will go extinct anyway. And as it happens a recent study has suggested the global population will plateau before we reach 100 years. If we led sustainable lives & addressed inequity there would be enough resources for all.
> 
> The heatwave of 1976 was just in one small part of the world, it was not global. This is about a global situation, not what a season is like in the UK. Average temperatures in the UK are rising - global temperature are rising! - the Earth is getting warmer & warmer. If we do not take urgent radical action it will keep getting hotter & we will go over the tipping point of no return, where it becomes runaway & irreversible. This means dangerous climate change will occur, which will release feedback loops, which will lead to more warming because of the release of stored methane etc, which will drive further warming regardless of whether we reduce our carbon emissions.
> 
> Please see these maps to understand the difference between 1976 (or 1975! ) and now.


Can't you ever give it a rest?

I was only adding my recollection to those of @mrs phas. and @Elles .... nothing more than that!

And what do I get? A REITH LECTURE complete with maps which I'm instructed to study in order to "understand" better!










How very kind and incredibly patronising of you!

Don't bother to answer because I know exactly what you're going to say .....

That I'm a climate denier!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Can't you ever give it a rest?
> 
> I was only adding my recollection to those of @mrs phas. and @Elles .... nothing more than that!
> 
> And what do I get? A REITH LECTURE complete with maps which I'm instructed to study in order to "understand" better!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How very kind and incredibly patronising of you!
> 
> Don't bother to answer because I know exactly what you're going to say .....
> 
> That I'm a climate denier!


I thought it was really important to point out the difference - not just for you but for anyone looking on this forum. There is no more important an an issue than climate change, so I feel its really important to point out the difference past local weather anomalies & climate change, especially on a this relevant thread. I also believe in free speech & so I will post where I like, ta very much.

As I've said before, we can only go on what people do or say on here. (waits for the mob to get their daggers out again)


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I thought it was really important to point out the difference - not just for you but for anyone looking on this forum. There is no more important an an issue than climate change, so I feel its really important to point out the difference past local weather anomalies & climate change, especially on a this relevant thread. I also believe in free speech & so I will post where I like, ta very much.
> 
> As I've said before, we can only go on what people do or say on here. (waits for the mob to get their daggers out again)


Well in that case there was absolutely no need to mention me at all!

And as you say we can only go on what people do and say on here!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Well in that case there was absolutely no need to mention me at all!
> 
> And as you say we can only go on what people do and say on here!


But you mentioned weather anomalies in the 70's so it seemed a good idea to point out the difference on a thread about climate change.

yep.


----------



## catz4m8z

Didnt come across as a personal attack to me TBH, just a related piece of information. Keep posting them Noush.....I find all those facts and quotes really interesting!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> But you mentioned weather anomalies in the 70's so it seemed a good idea to point out the difference on a thread about climate change.
> 
> yep.


Only after Elles had mentioned it



Elles said:


> In the 70s I forget which year, 76/77 maybe? I was working at Butlins Skegness. It was a heatwave and there was a plague of ladybirds. Do I remember that right?


And lullabydream ....



lullabydream said:


> Wasn't 76 the heatwave..I was only just born!


As well as kimthecat ......



kimthecat said:


> In a hundred years time , the population of the earth will be billions more , so even if there is no nuclear war and climate change is reversed its not going to hunky dory , I would expect the future generations to be living in a nightmare.
> 
> ETA if anyones interested ,according to my diary when I was 13 , the Easter holiday was very hot too and I spent Easter Monday at the local riding school grooming the ponies and cleaning tack in exchange for a ride.


and mrs phas ........



mrs phas said:


> 76 heatwave
> 77 ladybirds
> first time i discovered ladybirds could bite and bite hard
> I was 15 in 76


So why pick on me in particular?


----------



## lullabydream

Magyarmum said:


> Only after Elles had mentioned it
> 
> And lullabydream ....
> 
> As well as kimthecat ......
> 
> and mrs phas ........
> 
> So why pick on me in particular?


I thought the post had gone off topic to be honest and was just randomly chatting.

Even more so when Elles say she was going to apologise for taking the thread off topic then realised she had started the thread!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Only after Elles had mentioned it
> 
> And lullabydream ....
> 
> As well as kimthecat ......
> 
> and mrs phas ........
> 
> So why pick on me in particular?


I did quote kimthecat as well. My bad for not quoting the rest.


----------



## Magyarmum

lullabydream said:


> I thought the post had gone off topic to be honest and was just randomly chatting.
> 
> Even more so when Elles say she was going to apologise for taking the thread off topic then realised she had started the thread!


That's what I thought as well.

We were only trying to remember which year had a heatwave, a bit of harmless chatter that's all!


----------



## noushka05

catz4m8z said:


> Didnt come across as a personal attack to me TBH, just a related piece of information. Keep posting them Noush.....I find all those facts and quotes really interesting!


Aw thank you, thats really kind of you x At least someone isn't annoyed by my posts


----------



## lullabydream

@Elles maybe with your mention of Butlins, you should have said Hi De Hi, or Hello Campers just so people knew it was just a general off topic, thinking out loud type of chat!

I don't know!


----------



## bearcub

noushka05 said:


> Aw thank you, thats really kind of you x At least someone isn't annoyed by my posts


I'll be honest, noushka, I used to find your posts alarmist and preachy. And I apologise because now I know what is happening to our planet and I understand it for myself. You were never being alarmist or preachy. You were only ever telling the truth. I'm totally bemused by some of the attitudes on this thread.


----------



## LinznMilly

Just a friendly reminder to keep it civil.


----------



## Elles

I've said that I didn't agree that land based windfarms are the answer. I think they cause more problems than they solve and our science and tech have to look to alternatives. I've linked where I've found research into safe, renewable, efficient alternatives that are supported by environmentalists and deserve investment.

I also said that I disagreed that an 8 year old Greta should be so terrified of what's happening, she doesn't speak at all for two years and that I disagree with kids being frightened and taken out of school.

I'm horrified at the plastic in our oceans, seas and rivers and have linked both to the extremes of plastic pollution and to some fantastic people who are putting money into full scale clean up and deserve our support.

I got called a climate denier amongst other things.

I agree with and support the action that is being taken today by adults. It worked in the past on a smaller scale.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-35132815

I took my topic slightly off topic talking about past weather events with 'pet forum friends'. Sometimes we need to take a break.


----------



## kimthecat

bearcub said:


> . I'm totally bemused by some of the attitudes on this thread.


Aren't we all ! 



Elles said:


> I've said that I didn't agree that land based windfarms are the answer. I think they cause more problems than they solve and our science and tech have to look to alternatives. I've linked where I've found research into safe, renewable, efficient alternatives that are supported by environmentalists and deserve investment.
> 
> I also said that I disagreed that an 8 year old Greta should be so terrified of what's happening, she doesn't speak at all for two years and that I disagree with kids being frightened and taken out of school.
> 
> I'm horrified at the plastic in our oceans, seas and rivers and have linked both to the extremes of plastic pollution and to some fantastic people who are putting money into full scale clean up and deserve our support.
> 
> I got called a climate denier amongst other things.
> 
> I agree with and support the action that is being taken today by adults. It worked in the past on a smaller scale.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-35132815
> 
> I took my topic slightly off topic talking about past weather events with 'pet forum friends'. Sometimes we need to take a break.


You don't have to explain anything . This happens on forums , others putting people on the defensive.
I don't think talking about the weather is off topic on a climate thread . Most threads go off topic, anyway.


----------



## noushka05

bearcub said:


> I'll be honest, noushka, I used to find your posts alarmist and preachy. And I apologise because now I know what is happening to our planet and I understand it for myself. You were never being alarmist or preachy. You were only ever telling the truth. I'm totally bemused by some of the attitudes on this thread.


I'm really touched by this, thank you BC x. I'm no angel, I know that. I listen to the experts & read the evidence which is coming in on a daily basis about our climate getting hotter, ecosystems breaking down & just feel evermore desperate & helpless and I guess I'm not very good at hiding my frustration anymore. I should try harder though.



Elles said:


> I've said that I didn't agree that land based windfarms are the answer. I think they cause more problems than they solve and our science and tech have to look to alternatives. I've linked where I've found research into safe, renewable, efficient alternatives that are supported by environmentalists and deserve investment.


But windfarms don't cause more problems than they solve, this is just plain fact Elles. We must massively invest in green renewables like wind power, they are part of the solution to tackling climate change. We have around 11 years - we must start mitigating right away using all the tools we have. We have to assume that any new technology which is developed wont work at the scale & time frame we have - because it probably wont. If we have any hope of averting dangerous climate change we must listen to the experts.












Elles said:


> I also said that I disagreed that an 8 year old Greta should be so terrified of what's happening, she doesn't speak at all for two years and that I disagree with kids being frightened and taken out of school


Kids are taught about climate change in school. Because these kids are informed they are taking themselves out of school because they understand that their future is at stake. I have supported them on a school strike, I've stood there & heard kid after kid speak - no adults, not even Green's Natalie Bennett who was there. It was humbling & impressive to hear how well they have grasped the science so they fully understand the urgency to act.



Elles said:


> I got called a climate denier amongst other things.


I haven't called you a climate denier.



Elles said:


> I agree with and support the action that is being taken today by adults. It worked in the past on a smaller scale.


It won't work this time. We need radical action from above to transform our entire economic model & society.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> How very kind and incredibly patronising of you!


Just this one sentence tells me straight off at whom the post is directed, even tho' I have the person on ignore and have read nothing of theirs for months.


----------



## bearcub

Calvine said:


> Just this one sentence tells me straight off at whom the post is directed, even tho' I have the person on ignore and have read nothing of theirs for months.


You've mentioned that you have someone on ignore at least twice on this thread so you're clearly not doing a good job of ignoring them.


----------



## kimthecat

bearcub said:


> You've mentioned that you have someone on ignore at least twice on this thread so you're clearly not doing a good job of ignoring them.


It's rather fun playing Guess Who's On Ignore


----------



## ForestWomble

I've been watching this thread but not contributing so far as I don't know enough about this, however I have been umming and ahing about saying something about this girl, Greta, everyone keeps talking about (and about children in general). I'd never heard of her so can only go by what has been written on this thread but the sentence I've bolded below and others have mentioned this too made me decide to add my little bit, here it is:
To be so frightened that you stop speaking, apparently for 2 years, is awful and absolutely heartbreaking. I myself have gone through 'shut downs', 'mental breakdowns' - whatever term you want to call it and two of them have been when I was a child and I too became mute for a while, so I have an idea at just how petrified you have to become to shut down, it is an awful, frightening place to be and no child, or adult for that matter, should face so much fear that they go into 'shut down'. OK climate change needs to be talked about, but what on earth is Greta being told by parents, teachers or even her own research to be so terrified to go into such a dark space that she goes into shut down? 
People are different yes, you might have a class of 10 year olds for example where some can deal with 'scarier' information than others, but I have to agree with @Elles that I do not agree with frightening children and letting them have days off school to strike. It's not mentally healthy, children need to be allowed to be children, we are only young and innocent once and it doesn't last long, while learning about recycling and cleaner energy etc is a good thing, maybe the more 'frightening' side should wait until they are old enough to deal with it better.



Elles said:


> I've said that I didn't agree that land based windfarms are the answer. I think they cause more problems than they solve and our science and tech have to look to alternatives. I've linked where I've found research into safe, renewable, efficient alternatives that are supported by environmentalists and deserve investment.
> 
> *I also said that I disagreed that an 8 year old Greta should be so terrified of what's happening, she doesn't speak at all for two years and that I disagree with kids being frightened and taken out of school.*
> 
> I'm horrified at the plastic in our oceans, seas and rivers and have linked both to the extremes of plastic pollution and to some fantastic people who are putting money into full scale clean up and deserve our support.
> 
> I got called a climate denier amongst other things.
> 
> I agree with and support the action that is being taken today by adults. It worked in the past on a smaller scale.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-35132815
> 
> I took my topic slightly off topic talking about past weather events with 'pet forum friends'. Sometimes we need to take a break.


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> But windfarms don't cause more problems than they solve, this is just plain fact Elles. We must massively invest in green renewables like wind power, they are part of the solution to tackling climate change. We have around 11 years - we must start mitigating right away using all the tools we have. We have to assume that any new technology which is developed wont work at the scale & time frame we have - because it probably wont. If we have any hope of averting dangerous climate change we must listen to the experts.


Disagree with the generalisation here @noushka05 Each application must be judged by it's planning application and that formal process. There is a huge issue with an offshore windfall application on the fragile Norfolk coast that will dramatically affect the coastal erosion and micro ecosystems in the area on a level far bigger than the netting of the Bacton cliffs. It also affects the traffic in the area during the construction phase. The company behind the application have questionable ethics too. Just because it's a windfarm and it's a better solution doesn't mean it's in the right place. Far from it.


----------



## Elles

Unless governments, researchers and investors put money into alternative technology, we might as well give up now. We can't sit back and let them cover the countryside willy-nilly with wind turbines and solar panels as a job well done. They'll want to cut down even more trees to make space, because it's not even close to enough. I can't support them as being the answer. To make some kind of inroads into our power needs just here, they'd need to cover an area at least the size of Wales in wind turbines. 

https://scitechdaily.com/wind-farms-cause-more-environmental-impact-than-previously-thought/






We have to use them at the moment, they're necessary and certainly better than fracking, but covering the land (or sea) with these isn't the answer and I agree with @MollySmith, care needs to be taken over where they are. I'm not being a nimby when I say not here. They also only last about 10-12 years before they need replacing and we use fossil fuel to put them there.

What the extinction rebellion people are doing today, worked on a smaller scale before. The more support they have globally, the more likely the people in a position to invest and make our laws are to take notice.

If researchers get the investment they need to come up with more efficient, cleaner, safer methods of making our power, the more likely America and Russia would be to move to it. It's the only way the World will move away from fossil fuels, unsafe nuclear power, fracking and all the rest of it. People will not give up their profits, or their tech. Power needs to be supplied in a better way and we need to pressure to get those who can, to do it.

It's not hopeless and we won't destroy the planet, just our habitat, but it's not to late imo.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Just this one sentence tells me straight off at whom the post is directed, even tho' I have the person on ignore and have read nothing of theirs for months.


Or it could have been Emma Violet. Shes someone else you like to follow around stating you have them on ignore.



Animallover26 said:


> I've been watching this thread but not contributing so far as I don't know enough about this, however I have been umming and ahing about saying something about this girl, Greta, everyone keeps talking about (and about children in general). I'd never heard of her so can only go by what has been written on this thread but the sentence I've bolded below and others have mentioned this too made me decide to add my little bit, here it is:
> To be so frightened that you stop speaking, apparently for 2 years, is awful and absolutely heartbreaking. I myself have gone through 'shut downs', 'mental breakdowns' - whatever term you want to call it and two of them have been when I was a child and I too became mute for a while, so I have an idea at just how petrified you have to become to shut down, it is an awful, frightening place to be and no child, or adult for that matter, should face so much fear that they go into 'shut down'. OK climate change needs to be talked about, but what on earth is Greta being told by parents, teachers or even her own research to be so terrified to go into such a dark space that she goes into shut down?
> People are different yes, you might have a class of 10 year olds for example where some can deal with 'scarier' information than others, but I have to agree with @Elles that I do not agree with frightening children and letting them have days off school to strike. It's not mentally healthy, children need to be allowed to be children, we are only young and innocent once and it doesn't last long, while learning about recycling and cleaner energy etc is a good thing, maybe the more 'frightening' side should wait until they are old enough to deal with it better.


 I'm sure Greta would prefer people to direct their anger at governments, corporations & the people who have got us into this mess & not the scientists & the teachers telling the truth. She isnt angry at knowing the truth, shes angry & depressed at the inaction & apathy of our generation, of world leaders, of big business. Shes a highly intelligent, curious child deeply passionate about nature so in touch with the natural world. it would be nigh on impossible to insulate a child like that from the facts even if she hadn't been taught about them in school. And no one is letting the striking school children have days off school - they are actually striking. They have taken action themselves because they are informed, so understand without urgent action to address climate change their future is bleak.

Here is what Greta & her father say about your points AL. I always think its better to go direct to the source rather than rely on someone elses interpretation. Greta has her own mind, she believes is stating the truth, she doesnt believe in sugar coating the greatest crisis we face - and neither do I.

And her action on climate change has helped her recovery from depression. Greta, the striking school children & Extinction Rebellion have helped mine.







































MollySmith said:


> Disagree with the generalisation here @noushka05 Each application must be judged by it's planning application and that formal process. There is a huge issue with an offshore windfall application on the fragile Norfolk coast that will dramatically affect the coastal erosion and micro ecosystems in the area on a level far bigger than the netting of the Bacton cliffs. It also affects the traffic in the area during the construction phase. The company behind the application have questionable ethics too. Just because it's a windfarm and it's a better solution doesn't mean it's in the right place. Far from it.


Sorry I was generalising. We massively need to invest in wind power because climate change is a threat to all life on earth not just to local wildlife, but they should only be cited where robust ecological assessments have been carried out and impacts are minimal. Hope that clarifies


----------



## O2.0

@noushka05 do you have a link for the pink background text you've screenshot above?


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> @noushka05 do you have a link for the pink background text you've screenshot above?


Sorry I meant to reference the link. https://www.ft.com/content/4df1b9e6-34fb-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5


----------



## O2.0

I wanted the link to make sure I read the whole article, not just snippets, than you 

I'm going to have to side with @Animallover26 on this. Climate change aside, what we must do about it aside, there is something not mentally healthy about what is going on with Greta Thunberg.

She is without a doubt a remarkable, inspirational young woman. I have no doubt she will do (and is doing) great things.
I also hesitate to judge anyone on their parenting. Heaven knows we are all doing what we think best and I have no doubt her parents are just doing the best they know to do. 
But as an advocate for children, the mental health aspect of all of this worries me.

Climate change needs to be addressed, how exactly I don't know what the best approach is. But children too need to be protected. JMO....


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Sorry I meant to reference the link. https://www.ft.com/content/4df1b9e6-34fb-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5


From the link - "Thunberg's father stresses that she is the top of her class and makes up for the work that she misses."

Which is all very well. What about all the rest of the kids?

I still can't get past the feeling she is being used somewhat.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Unless governments, researchers and investors put money into alternative technology, we might as well give up now. We can't sit back and let them cover the countryside willy-nilly with wind turbines and solar panels as a job well done. They'll want to cut down even more trees to make space, because it's not even close to enough. I can't support them as being the answer. To make some kind of inroads into our power needs just here, they'd need to cover an area at least the size of Wales in wind turbines.
> 
> https://scitechdaily.com/wind-farms-cause-more-environmental-impact-than-previously-thought/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have to use them at the moment, they're necessary and certainly better than fracking, but covering the land (or sea) with these isn't the answer and I agree with @MollySmith, care needs to be taken over where they are. I'm not being a nimby when I say not here. They also only last about 10-12 years before they need replacing and we use fossil fuel to put them there.
> 
> What the extinction rebellion people are doing today, worked on a smaller scale before. The more support they have globally, the more likely the people in a position to invest and make our laws are to take notice.
> 
> If researchers get the investment they need to come up with more efficient, cleaner, safer methods of making our power, the more likely America and Russia would be to move to it. It's the only way the World will move away from fossil fuels, unsafe nuclear power, fracking and all the rest of it. People will not give up their profits, or their tech. Power needs to be supplied in a better way and we need to pressure to get those who can, to do it.
> 
> It's not hopeless and we won't destroy the planet, just our habitat, but it's not to late imo.


Thank you @Elles

There has to be a balance and I feel that actually addressing what fuel is needed and why matters. Much as you say about putting money into cause and effect... think about how past governments have encouraged diesel cars (I changed from petrol to diesel) and the concerns that there are over batteries for electric cars - nevermind how expensive they are for the average person. There's a point that comes when we have to stop being greedy and change our habits as a race so we use less energy not replacing it with poorly planned wind farms or buying into electric cars without caring about the effects of mining and disposal. It's like being an evangelist about food without considering the air miles, palm oil or the source (vegan, veggie and meat). One cannot be blind to a journey.

And @Animallover26 I love your post, how thoughtful you write and I absolutely agree with every word you've written. It isn't right and I feel she's in danger of being a living icon in danger of huge distress. We all need to channel our anxiety about the planet on action, not raising a child onto a pedestal. I worry that not only does it make it a 'next generation' thing (which can isolate the older generations or those of us who do not have children) but can mistakenly place hope in the wrong place.


----------



## ForestWomble

MollySmith said:


> Thank you @Elles
> 
> There has to be a balance and I feel that actually addressing what fuel is needed and why matters. Much as you say about putting money into cause and effect... think about how past governments have encouraged diesel cars (I changed from petrol to diesel) and the concerns that there are over batteries for electric cars - nevermind how expensive they are for the average person. There's a point that comes when we have to stop being greedy and change our habits as a race so we use less energy not replacing it with poorly planned wind farms or buying into electric cars without caring about the effects of mining and disposal. It's like being an evangelist about food without considering the air miles, palm oil or the source (vegan, veggie and meat). One cannot be blind to a journey.
> 
> And @Animallover26 I love your post, how thoughtful you write and I absolutely agree with every word you've written. It isn't right and I feel she's in danger of being a living icon in danger of huge distress. We all need to channel our anxiety about the planet on action, not raising a child onto a pedestal. I worry that not only does it make it a 'next generation' thing (which can isolate the older generations or those of us who do not have children) but can mistakenly place hope in the wrong place.


Thank you, that means a lot. :Shy

@noushka05 I'm sorry, but like @O2.0 and @MollySmith and everyone else who has expressed concern, I stick by what I said, children should be allowed to be children, there is so much stress placed on them from a young age already without this new situation.


----------



## Jonescat

I agree so much with this - it is about the whole picture - for the planets sake I would rather people ate slow-grown grass-fed organic meat occasionally than soya beans that displaced a village and a forest for the sake of my conscience. Ultimately I would like them to eat decent food properly and locally grown. 

I was pleased to find out recently that Extinction Rebellion started near here in Stroud. I have been aware of them in Stroud for ages but assumed they were a part of something rather than the start of it.


----------



## MilleD

Animallover26 said:


> Thank you, that means a lot. :Shy
> 
> @noushka05 I'm sorry, but like @O2.0 and @MollySmith and everyone else who has expressed concern, I stick by what I said, children should be allowed to be children, there is so much stress placed on them from a young age already without this new situation.


What about the risk that a child might not 'care enough'?

This just has so many ways of causing hurt and injustice....


----------



## Elles

Jonescat said:


> I agree so much with this - it is about the whole picture - for the planets sake I would rather people ate slow-grown grass-fed organic meat occasionally than soya beans that displaced a village and a forest for the sake of my conscience. Ultimately I would like them to eat decent food properly and locally grown.
> it.


I'd have to take the soya if I was starving. I haven't eaten parts of animals for over half a century, I doubt I could digest it, if I could get past the revulsion lol.

The soya that displaced a village and destroyed a forest would more likely have been grown to feed factory farmed animals though. 

I do get what you're saying and agree with the basic premise.


----------



## ForestWomble

MilleD said:


> What about the risk that a child might not 'care enough'?
> 
> This just has so many ways of causing hurt and injustice....


There will always be that risk, not all children are going to care, same as not all adults care, but in my opinion it is far worse to cause children so much fear and distress that they could become or worse are becoming or have become mentally ill, a new generation of mentally ill children (at worse case scenario) won't help anyone.


----------



## Elles

Animallover26 said:


> There will always be that risk, not all children are going to care, same as not all adults care, but in my opinion it is far worse to cause children so much fear and distress that they could become or worse are becoming or have become mentally ill, a new generation of mentally ill children (at worse case scenario) won't help anyone.


I took @MilleD to mean that the child could be bullied, or treated badly be their peers, family and teachers etc if they were perceived to not 'care enough', now they're being told to? Is this what you meant?


----------



## noushka05

I will address all your points tomorrow, but I'm watching this livestream at the moment & thought it might be of interest to some people on here.


----------



## ForestWomble

Elles said:


> I took @MilleD to mean that the child could be bullied, or treated badly be their peers, family and teachers etc if they were perceived to not 'care enough', now they're being told to? Is this what you meant?


Ah, having re-read I can see that that might be what @MilleD meant, apologise for my misunderstanding if so.

Re that suggestion, children (and adults for that matter) can be really nasty and bullying can happen for any 'difference', so really that issue can be an issue regardless.


----------



## MollySmith

Jonescat said:


> I agree so much with this - it is about the whole picture - for the planets sake I would rather people ate slow-grown grass-fed organic meat occasionally than soya beans that displaced a village and a forest for the sake of my conscience. Ultimately I would like them to eat decent food properly and locally grown.
> 
> I was pleased to find out recently that Extinction Rebellion started near here in Stroud. I have been aware of them in Stroud for ages but assumed they were a part of something rather than the start of it.


I'm glad you've got a branch near you.

I absolutely see your reasoning. I fear I'd starve as I would choose neither easily, if at all. I'm still somewhat cynical over vegan choices saving the planet, I've said so before and ended up in messy debates but still stand by provenance and food miles, ignoring them can place a strain on our planet in other ways as you say with soy (and avocados amongst others). I'd chomp on a local carrot if it's available!


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> I will address all your points tomorrow, but I'm watching this livestream at the moment & thought it might be of interest to some people on here.


Hope it was useful, I don't think there are any points to address though? Just people having a discussion about different points of the interest.


----------



## bearcub

Animallover26 said:


> There will always be that risk, not all children are going to care, same as not all adults care, but in my opinion it is far worse to cause children so much fear and distress that they could become or worse are becoming or have become mentally ill, a new generation of mentally ill children (at worse case scenario) won't help anyone.


Who are you saying is causing children (although Greta Thunberg is 16) fear and distress? Also, she is autistic which is not in itself a mental illness.


----------



## lullabydream

bearcub said:


> Also, she is autistic which is not in itself a mental illness


 no it's not but plenty of people with autism have anxiety and other mental health problems. There are a high percentage that can have forms of psychosis. So it's not too much to say there isn't a link or no combidity because there is.

Obsessions are normal in autism too. Although sometimes the obsession is totally all encompassing they see, do think about nothing else. It can be very harmful when children come fixated on a subject in an obsessional way. Which is possibly what's happening her, not Asperger's guiding her making her thinking out the box. Is this damaging to her currently? Highly possibly.

The thing with Obsessions though in autism they can be short lived..what happens then to Greta when she's discovered another subject she wants to talk about? Will her parents still have her sailing high for the voice of climate change? How will her parents support this change? Away from the limelight?

This bubble may never burst, but someone really neefs to look at this scenario, take a step back and see does her mental health need looking at


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> I took @MilleD to mean that the child could be bullied, or treated badly be their peers, family and teachers etc if they were perceived to not 'care enough', now they're being told to? Is this what you meant?


Yes, that's what I meant


----------



## bearcub

lullabydream said:


> no it's not but plenty of people with autism have anxiety and other mental health problems. There are a high percentage that can have forms of psychosis. So it's not too much to say there isn't a link or no combidity because there is.
> 
> Obsessions are normal in autism too. Although sometimes the obsession is totally all encompassing they see, do think about nothing else. It can be very harmful when children come fixated on a subject in an obsessional way. Which is possibly what's happening her, not Asperger's guiding her making her thinking out the box. Is this damaging to her currently? Highly possibly.
> 
> The thing with Obsessions though in autism they can be short lived..what happens then to Greta when she's discovered another subject she wants to talk about? Will her parents still have her sailing high for the voice of climate change? How will her parents support this change? Away from the limelight?
> 
> This bubble may never burst, but someone really neefs to look at this scenario, take a step back and see does her mental health need looking at


And on the other hand, she shouldn't be limited by her condition.


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> I wanted the link to make sure I read the whole article, not just snippets, than you
> 
> I'm going to have to side with @Animallover26 on this. Climate change aside, what we must do about it aside, there is something not mentally healthy about what is going on with Greta Thunberg.
> 
> She is without a doubt a remarkable, inspirational young woman. I have no doubt she will do (and is doing) great things.
> I also hesitate to judge anyone on their parenting. Heaven knows we are all doing what we think best and I have no doubt her parents are just doing the best they know to do.
> But as an advocate for children, the mental health aspect of all of this worries me.
> 
> Climate change needs to be addressed, how exactly I don't know what the best approach is. But children too need to be protected. JMO....


No worries. As I said I meant to post the link to the entire article.

I'm concerned for Greta and I can totally understand young people like Greta who are taught the real science, who can see the damage being done to our natural world & knowing things are getting worse sinking into depression. There is an epidemic of mental illness in children, I suspect some of this is due to the state of our living planet.

Greta & the striking kids have responded to their despair with a determination to fight to save our planet though.

I totally agree that children need to be protected, but its hard to protect them from the truth & it will be impossible to protect them from ecological impacts of catastrophic climate breakdown.

Greta is she is now being mercilessly being trolled by climate deniers on social media. Worse still sinister forces from your side of the pond are attacking her - the climate destroying Koch brothers. Though she has bravely said she will not be silenced, these attacks will surely impact her mental health.









.



MilleD said:


> From the link - "Thunberg's father stresses that she is the top of her class and makes up for the work that she misses."
> 
> Which is all very well. What about all the rest of the kids?
> 
> I still can't get past the feeling she is being used somewhat.


If we don't win this battle, what future do they have?



Animallover26 said:


> Thank you, that means a lot. :Shy
> 
> @noushka05 I'm sorry, but like @O2.0 and @MollySmith and everyone else who has expressed concern, I stick by what I said, children should be allowed to be children, there is so much stress placed on them from a young age already without this new situation.


I agree, but I also agree in educating children about environmental sciences. There is no more important a subject, I believe the basics should be part of the core curriculum. Maybe if they had when we were all at school we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

The perspectives of teacher in this interesting article. "_We have a duty to inform them"_
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-to-reflect-the-urgency-of-the-climate-crisis

Projections of societal collapse, famine and war are not fearmongering: they must be taken seriously. It is never enjoyable to startle and worry children, but we have a duty to inform them of the issues.

We need more detail in the GCSE science curriculum, especially in terms of how renewable energy sources work, and I would like to see more information and debate about the consequences of not lowering carbon dioxide emissions or not rapidly acting to protect biodiversity.

The newly updated KS4 science curriculum shows promise. In physics, students learn about renewable and non-renewable energy sources; in chemistry they study the carbon cycle and greenhouse effect; in biology they learn about biodiversity loss and methods of conservation. Exam questions ask about the consequences of global warming and directly link it to carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases being released excessively into the atmosphere. What is missing, however, is a way of bringing it all together; to show how the situation is likely to affect young people's lives within a few years.

Schools encourage charity fundraising and working within local communities. There now needs to be legislation to ensure they show the same diligence in protecting the planet's future and preparing young people to be informed actors in their own futures.

The big revolutions of the young against the old in the past century, like the swinging 60s, were characterised by the introduction of new social values. But this burgeoning 21st-century revolt doesn't have to be a revolution at all. Young or old, no one wants to lose key species of plants and animals. No one wants to be short of food or see their children displaced or harmed due to conflict from limited resources.

Some informed students of this country are simply prompting all adults, especially policy makers, to act on an issue which they ought already to be acting upon. *We should stand in solidarity with them.*



Jonescat said:


> I agree so much with this - it is about the whole picture - for the planets sake I would rather people ate slow-grown grass-fed organic meat occasionally than soya beans that displaced a village and a forest for the sake of my conscience. Ultimately I would like them to eat decent food properly and locally grown.
> 
> I was pleased to find out recently that Extinction Rebellion started near here in Stroud. I have been aware of them in Stroud for ages but assumed they were a part of something rather than the start of it.


God I really hope I'm not going to antagonise more people by posting this:Bag Many (though I know not all) grass fed cattle are raised on rye grass. Rye grass is grown as a monoculture to feed livestock, mown several times a year - so really damaging to local wildlife.

Also bad for the climate - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-10-03-grass-fed-beef-good-or-bad-climate#

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth
The research also found grass-fed beef, thought to be relatively low impact, was still responsible for much higher impacts than plant-based food. "Converting grass into [meat] is like converting coal to energy. It comes with an immense cost in emissions," Poore said.



MollySmith said:


> I'm glad you've got a branch near you.
> 
> I absolutely see your reasoning. I fear I'd starve as I would choose neither easily, if at all. I'm still somewhat cynical over vegan choices saving the planet, I've said so before and ended up in messy debates but still stand by provenance and food miles, ignoring them can place a strain on our planet in other ways as you say with soy (and avocados amongst others). I'd chomp on a local carrot if it's available!


This BBC guide is very helpful Molly.

*Climate change food calculator: What's your diet's carbon footprint?*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46459714


----------



## Elles

When I read about her life it said that she has Aspergers and when she was 8 years old she became so frightened by what is happening with climate change she stopped speaking and didn’t speak again for 2 years. She now speaks about climate change, but is otherwise mute. She says it herself in her climate change speeches. She’s now 16. It may be that her public appearances and feeling that she is doing something now helps her as an individual, but I don’t think we should be applauding what happened to her and promoting it as a wonderful thing.

We are now taking children out of school over CC and a young boy was sobbing his heart out over it on tv, because there’s only 10 years left and he wants everyone to live.

I personally don’t agree with it. 

It’s not just climate change either. Adult petforum members can hardly watch some of the factory farming and animal agriculture videos that rph links and some complain at her for being graphic. Very young children are being shown them and taken to vigils and protests. By all means bring them up to be kind to animals and not eating them, but let them grow up before you start exposing them to horrors like those. 

It’s not up to me, they aren’t my children, but I don’t like it and I hope it doesn’t have the opposite effect and desensitise them. I can’t see that this kind of thing is healthy, or kind to children.


----------



## noushka05

Greta visited UK Parliament yesterday. She met with party leaders. Though not Theresa May, who snubbed the invitation.

Her speech to Parliament was outstanding & brave. This is how to hold power to account. If only our hopeless media had done the same. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...rg-full-speech-to-mps-you-did-not-act-in-time


----------



## noushka05

I hope people who doubt what the school strikers & Extinction Rebellion are doing will please listen to Christina Figueres


----------



## lullabydream

bearcub said:


> And on the other hand, she shouldn't be limited by her condition.


If she's not limited by a condition why is the fact she has Asperger's mentioned not only by the media but herself?

The condition is limiting her and it doesn't many people who function daily and go about the world. Often working with people who don't know their diagnosis because quite often it doesn't matter one iota.


----------



## noushka05

lullabydream said:


> If she's not limited by a condition why is the fact she has Asperger's mentioned not only by the media but herself?
> 
> The condition is limiting her and it doesn't many people who function daily and go about the world. Often working with people who don't know their diagnosis because quite often it doesn't matter one iota.


Greta sees her Aspergers as a gift: _"my Aspergers makes me different and being different is a gift, it helps you see things outside of the box"

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...t-strike-climate-change-radio-4-a8883056.html_

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0b24d4a0-65b5-11e9-adc2-05e1b87efaea


----------



## lullabydream

noushka05 said:


> Greta sees her Aspergers as a gift: _"my Aspergers makes me different and being different is a gift, it helps you see things outside of the box"
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...t-strike-climate-change-radio-4-a8883056.html_
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0b24d4a0-65b5-11e9-adc2-05e1b87efaea


Yes I am aware of that. and thought that's a good marketing ploy. As that's all I can think. Her parents are spin doctors here.

I know this comment will be shot down, but these are not parents embracing her passion, her obsession. They aren't helping matters.


----------



## Elles

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/extinction-rebellion-climate-change-uk

The extinction rebellion people have a lot of support. A lot more than many previous demonstrations have had.

It's funny though. People have been criticised for sitting on their backsides and moaning on Facebook, now they're outside doing something, they're being moaned at about that lol.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Re Greta

If she's not getting proper support she is going to burn out very quick. From the interview with her she sounded exhausted. I personally don't agree having a young person, no matter if they have aspergers or not as the media figure head. No matter how eloquent she is, the amount of stress and strain this would have on her is intolerable. 
I don't like how since she was 8 she's been terrified. Yes it's important to know about climate change, but not in such a way it scares you. 


I hate the alarmist way some have. A lot of people will give up if they think the world is doomed, that its too late. There has to be positives people can work towards.


----------



## O2.0

HarlequinCat said:


> From the interview with her she sounded exhausted.


I thought so too.

I'm not really sure how to articulate it, but I trust my gut. And my gut says that something about all of this is not in that child's best interest. Yes, to me a 16 year old is still very much a child, not to say she is any less capable, but to remember that she still has the needs of a child.


----------



## kimthecat

Animallover26 said:


> Thank you, that means a lot. :Shy
> 
> @noushka05 I'm sorry, but like @O2.0 and @MollySmith and everyone else who has expressed concern, I stick by what I said, children should be allowed to be children, there is so much stress placed on them from a young age already without this new situation.


Absolutely . Poor child .



HarlequinCat said:


> Re Greta
> 
> If she's not getting proper support she is going to burn out very quick. From the interview with her she sounded exhausted. I personally don't agree having a young person, no matter if they have aspergers or not as the media figure head. No matter how eloquent she is, the amount of stress and strain this would have on her is intolerable.
> I don't like how since she was 8 she's been terrified. Yes it's important to know about climate change, but not in such a way it scares you.


I suppose at 16 she is old enough to make her own decisions but her parents need to protect her more.



> I hate the alarmist way some have. A lot of people will give up if they think the world is doomed, that its too late. There has to be positives people can work towards.


It worries me that a lot of young people are vulnerable and fragile and what harm they may do to themselves.


----------



## lullabydream

HarlequinCat said:


> I don't like how since she was 8 she's been terrified. Yes it's important to know about climate change, but not in such a way it scares you.


One of a normal obsession with someone with ASC is death. It absolutely can terrify them. With the correct support its put into proportion. It doesn't have to be triggered by death of a loved on its just the realisation of life. If a child is so terrified of our earth it's worrying; she needs support. She needs to know about how she can help what changes she can make. She also needs to be a child too, an experience life with a carefree attitude.

It really is truly sad. I don't know what angle is used here but to use Asperger's or any label to me doesn't sit comfortably.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Greta visited UK Parliament yesterday. She met with party leaders. Though not Theresa May, who snubbed the invitation.
> 
> Her speech to Parliament was outstanding & brave. This is how to hold power to account. If only our hopeless media had done the same. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...rg-full-speech-to-mps-you-did-not-act-in-time


She'll be kicking herself if the status quo remains in 11 years......


----------



## Elles

It’s not just about Greta either. People see children standing out and making a difference and think it’s ok to push their own children into it. I think some of the more fanatical are like pushy parents in sport, but more harmful. I don’t expect there’s anything we can do about it though, it will be up to the experts to say what it’s likely to do to them and advise on it. I’m just a pleb.


----------



## Orange&White

Here are a few thoughts on why the older generations are not climate alarmists, but simply climate concerned.

Human psychology has a need to believe in something bigger and outside our individual selves. We need hope. A common belief system of shared values is the glue that holds a civilization together. Climate Alarmism is the new religion, replacing Judaism/Christianity/Islam et.al. with “Science” replacing god.

Worship of God, Earth's creator, with the sins of man causing our downfall has been replaced with worship of the created Earth with the sins of man causing our downfall. Both religions have a parallel sense of fervor and urgency, particularly among the true believers.

In the former religion, God increases the strength and frequency of fires, earthquakes, floods, droughts, plagues and famines. Eventually God puts an end to the suffering by essentially imploding the world in a fiery finale. He then creates a new and perfect Earth for the believers. Deniers burn in eternal flames. You'd better hurry and be saved because you don't know when He will come. Your soul yearns for the new and perfect world to come. Time is short.

In the replacement religion, the increase in climate catastrophes can only be solved by man, since God has been deemed a nonexistent myth by the science of man. Man increases the strength and frequency of fires, earthquakes, floods, droughts, plagues and famines. Eventually deniers' inaction will put an end to the world by essentially imploding the world in a fiery finale. But there's hope! Man can create a new and perfect Earth for the believers. You'd better hurry and build windmills and solar panels to be saved because we only have eleven years. Your soul yearns for the new and perfect world which might come if only everyone believes and spreads The Word. Time is short.

Whatever society, culture, parents and educators use to indoctrinate children from birth through adulthood are the values and beliefs people tend to carry through life. Older generations tend to believe in God as God of the Earth, with preachers/rabbis/imams as leaders whose intensive study can “prove” the teachings. Younger generations tend to believe in man as god of the Earth with scientists as leaders whose intensive study can “prove” the teachings. The United Nations formally introduced this new religion in the 1970's, and it has slowly taken hold of the proceeding generations. 

If we are to have a global government, centrally directed by the UN, then there has to be a common global belief system and goal of hope for all people. Plagiarizing the principles and warnings written in the Bible/Torah/Koran and rewriting them into the Climatism Faith appears to be working effectively, as has been planned for over half a century. They only needed one or two generations of children to rewire peoples' brains.

Scoffers exist in both religions by the way, laughing at the “extreme alarmists” standing on the street corners preaching, “The End is Near!” There is nothing new under the sun, just some major edits in the ongoing story of humanity.


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> No worries. As I said I meant to post the link to the entire article.
> 
> I'm concerned for Greta and I can totally understand young people like Greta who are taught the real science, who can see the damage being done to our natural world & knowing things are getting worse sinking into depression. There is an epidemic of mental illness in children, I suspect some of this is due to the state of our living planet.
> 
> Greta & the striking kids have responded to their despair with a determination to fight to save our planet though.
> 
> I totally agree that children need to be protected, but its hard to protect them from the truth & it will be impossible to protect them from ecological impacts of catastrophic climate breakdown.
> 
> Greta is she is now being mercilessly being trolled by climate deniers on social media. Worse still sinister forces from your side of the pond are attacking her - the climate destroying Koch brothers. Though she has bravely said she will not be silenced, these attacks will surely impact her mental health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> If we don't win this battle, what future do they have?
> 
> I agree, but I also agree in educating children about environmental sciences. There is no more important a subject, I believe the basics should be part of the core curriculum. Maybe if they had when we were all at school we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.
> 
> The perspectives of teacher in this interesting article. "_We have a duty to inform them"_
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-to-reflect-the-urgency-of-the-climate-crisis
> 
> Projections of societal collapse, famine and war are not fearmongering: they must be taken seriously. It is never enjoyable to startle and worry children, but we have a duty to inform them of the issues.
> 
> We need more detail in the GCSE science curriculum, especially in terms of how renewable energy sources work, and I would like to see more information and debate about the consequences of not lowering carbon dioxide emissions or not rapidly acting to protect biodiversity.
> 
> The newly updated KS4 science curriculum shows promise. In physics, students learn about renewable and non-renewable energy sources; in chemistry they study the carbon cycle and greenhouse effect; in biology they learn about biodiversity loss and methods of conservation. Exam questions ask about the consequences of global warming and directly link it to carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases being released excessively into the atmosphere. What is missing, however, is a way of bringing it all together; to show how the situation is likely to affect young people's lives within a few years.
> 
> Schools encourage charity fundraising and working within local communities. There now needs to be legislation to ensure they show the same diligence in protecting the planet's future and preparing young people to be informed actors in their own futures.
> 
> The big revolutions of the young against the old in the past century, like the swinging 60s, were characterised by the introduction of new social values. But this burgeoning 21st-century revolt doesn't have to be a revolution at all. Young or old, no one wants to lose key species of plants and animals. No one wants to be short of food or see their children displaced or harmed due to conflict from limited resources.
> 
> Some informed students of this country are simply prompting all adults, especially policy makers, to act on an issue which they ought already to be acting upon. *We should stand in solidarity with them.*
> 
> God I really hope I'm not going to antagonise more people by posting this:Bag Many (though I know not all) grass fed cattle are raised on rye grass. Rye grass is grown as a monoculture to feed livestock, mown several times a year - so really damaging to local wildlife.
> 
> Also bad for the climate - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-10-03-grass-fed-beef-good-or-bad-climate#
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth
> The research also found grass-fed beef, thought to be relatively low impact, was still responsible for much higher impacts than plant-based food. "Converting grass into [meat] is like converting coal to energy. It comes with an immense cost in emissions," Poore said.
> 
> This BBC guide is very helpful Molly.
> 
> *Climate change food calculator: What's your diet's carbon footprint?*
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46459714


@noushka05 I am almost certain that I've been aware of my carbon footprint on my diet for longer than many many people. I do know of this link already and do not need to check. I was having a friendly chat not seeking advice or links. Perhaps someone else might find it handyz


----------



## noushka05

lullabydream said:


> Yes I am aware of that. and thought that's a good marketing ploy. As that's all I can think. Her parents are spin doctors here.
> 
> I know this comment will be shot down, but these are not parents embracing her passion, her obsession. They aren't helping matters.


I think its really sad that you think she is a liar.



HarlequinCat said:


> Re Greta
> 
> If she's not getting proper support she is going to burn out very quick. From the interview with her she sounded exhausted. I personally don't agree having a young person, no matter if they have aspergers or not as the media figure head. No matter how eloquent she is, the amount of stress and strain this would have on her is intolerable.
> I don't like how since she was 8 she's been terrified. Yes it's important to know about climate change, but not in such a way it scares you.
> 
> I hate the alarmist way some have. A lot of people will give up if they think the world is doomed, that its too late. There has to be positives people can work towards.


The scientific community doesn't deal in alarmism, they deal in evidence & facts, and Greta's understanding & interpretation of the crisis we are facing has been astonishing. Her speeches are profound & her message is clear. She is relaying us the truth, just like David Attenborough or anyone else who accepts the science. How can anyone who is fully informed not be scared? There is hope HC, but we only have a tiny window of opportunity to act, hence the urgency.



MilleD said:


> She'll be kicking herself if the status quo remains in 11 years......


We all will.



Orange&White said:


> Here are a few thoughts on why the older generations are not climate alarmists, but simply climate concerned.
> 
> Human psychology has a need to believe in something bigger and outside our individual selves. We need hope. A common belief system of shared values is the glue that holds a civilization together. Climate Alarmism is the new religion, replacing Judaism/Christianity/Islam et.al. with "Science" replacing god.
> 
> Worship of God, Earth's creator, with the sins of man causing our downfall has been replaced with worship of the created Earth with the sins of man causing our downfall. Both religions have a parallel sense of fervor and urgency, particularly among the true believers.
> 
> In the former religion, God increases the strength and frequency of fires, earthquakes, floods, droughts, plagues and famines. Eventually God puts an end to the suffering by essentially imploding the world in a fiery finale. He then creates a new and perfect Earth for the believers. Deniers burn in eternal flames. You'd better hurry and be saved because you don't know when He will come. Your soul yearns for the new and perfect world to come. Time is short.
> 
> In the replacement religion, the increase in climate catastrophes can only be solved by man, since God has been deemed a nonexistent myth by the science of man. Man increases the strength and frequency of fires, earthquakes, floods, droughts, plagues and famines. Eventually deniers' inaction will put an end to the world by essentially imploding the world in a fiery finale. But there's hope! Man can create a new and perfect Earth for the believers. You'd better hurry and build windmills and solar panels to be saved because we only have eleven years. Your soul yearns for the new and perfect world which might come if only everyone believes and spreads The Word. Time is short.
> 
> Whatever society, culture, parents and educators use to indoctrinate children from birth through adulthood are the values and beliefs people tend to carry through life. Older generations tend to believe in God as God of the Earth, with preachers/rabbis/imams as leaders whose intensive study can "prove" the teachings. Younger generations tend to believe in man as god of the Earth with scientists as leaders whose intensive study can "prove" the teachings. The United Nations formally introduced this new religion in the 1970's, and it has slowly taken hold of the proceeding generations.
> 
> If we are to have a global government, centrally directed by the UN, then there has to be a common global belief system and goal of hope for all people. Plagiarizing the principles and warnings written in the Bible/Torah/Koran and rewriting them into the Climatism Faith appears to be working effectively, as has been planned for over half a century. They only needed one or two generations of children to rewire peoples' brains.
> 
> Scoffers exist in both religions by the way, laughing at the "extreme alarmists" standing on the street corners preaching, "The End is Near!" There is nothing new under the sun, just some major edits in the ongoing story of humanity.


Older people aren't alarmed because, either, they are not informed about the scientific evidence Or they are wilfully blind & in denial. Science isn't a belief - so nothing like a religion. The dangers of climate change are based on the best possible evidence, not faith. It will be interesting to see how many people like your post.


----------



## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> @noushka05 I am almost certain that I've been aware of my carbon footprint on my diet for longer than many many people. I do know of this link already and do not need to check. I was having a friendly chat not seeking advice or links. Perhaps someone else might find it handyz


If I've upset you be posting it, I didn't mean to & can only apologise. Sorry Molly.


----------



## Elles

I don’t need a scientist to tell me that coal fires and petrol fumes aren’t good for me. I don’t need a scientist to tell me factory farming is cruel and destroying rain forests is a bad thing to do.

As I said in another thread, it doesn’t really matter whether they’re right about climate change, extremes or not, changing for the better will only be beneficial. No one is talking about killing people, or ostracising them if they don’t believe it.

So no, sorry, I don’t agree. It’s not a replacement for religion, it’s real and happening.

However if you’re saying some parents are treating it like a religion and scaring their kids with it, in the same way some religious fanatics do, I can probably agree.


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> I think its really sad that you think she is a liar.


How on earth did you get that from what @lullabydream posted? 
That's not how I understood her post at all? Where did she say she thinks Greta is lying?



noushka05 said:


> Older people aren't alarmed because, either, they are not informed about the scientific evidence Or they are wilfully blind & in denial.


 Those are the only two options you can think of? Either you're alarmed or you're ignorant and/or in denial? 
Sorry but there are multiple more options here. 
Perhaps people are just different? Cope differently? React differently. 
I tend to default to dead calm in emergencies. Other people freak out. Does that mean I don't care or that I'm just wired differently?

I care very deeply about this planet and what we are doing to it. And I am actively working to make a difference in ways that I know I actually can make a difference. 
Just because I'm not reacting the same way you are doesn't mean anything really. It just means we're different people - all of us on this thread are.


----------



## noushka05

Barack & Hillary.


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> How on earth did you get that from what @lullabydream posted?
> That's not how I understood her post at all? Where did she say she thinks Greta is lying?


Thank you... I did not say Greta was lying at all.

I have said obsessions are normal in children/adults with autism. Are they healthy... Not if they are harming ones mental health, education the list is endless how these can actually harm a person.


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> How on earth did you get that from what @lullabydream posted?
> That's not how I understood her post at all? Where did she say she thinks Greta is lying?
> 
> Those are the only two options you can think of? Either you're alarmed or you're ignorant and/or in denial?
> Sorry but there are multiple more options here.
> Perhaps people are just different? Cope differently? React differently.
> I tend to default to dead calm in emergencies. Other people freak out. Does that mean I don't care or that I'm just wired differently?
> 
> I care very deeply about this planet and what we are doing to it. And I am actively working to make a difference in ways that I know I actually can make a difference.
> Just because I'm not reacting the same way you are doesn't mean anything really. It just means we're different people - all of us on this thread are.


Because Greta has said time & again that her parents haven't influenced her - she has influenced them.

Fair enough, but O&W does deny the science. We will not save this planet for our children & future generations, if as Greta puts it, we don't act like our house is on fire - because it is.


----------



## noushka05

https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/


----------



## mrs phas

noushka05 said:


> Older people aren't alarmed because, either, they are not informed about the scientific evidence Or they are wilfully blind & in denial..


All I can say is
how bloody dare you
your generation didnt invent scientific knowledge


----------



## Rafa

Surely though, whilst it is good for younger generations to be aware of climate change and what they can do to help, it has to be wrong for such a young girl to be so consumed by it that has suffered by it.

Awareness is healthy, living in a state of fear and dread certainly isn't.

As someone else has pointed out, she could be destined for real disappointment, as she wants action and results from those who may well have deaf ears.


----------



## Elles

Greta's ancestry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius

"Based on information from his colleague Arvid Högbom, Arrhenius was the first person to predict that emissions of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels and other combustion processes were large enough to cause global warming."

Her family have been warning about climate change for a very long time indeed.


----------



## mrs phas

lullabydream said:


> Thank you... I did not say Greta was lying at all.
> 
> I have said obsessions are normal in children/adults with autism. Are they healthy... Not if they are harming ones mental health, education the list is endless how these can actually harm a person.


she is not Autistic, she is Aspergic
there is a proper scientific distinguishment between the two, although Aspergers is classed as an ASD, you are correct in that.
As a parent of someone on the spectrum it is very important that the deliniation is correct as to not muddle others


----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> Older people aren't alarmed because, either, they are not informed about the scientific evidence Or they are wilfully blind & in denial.


Seriously?

How do you know what is going on in the minds of 'older' people?

Nice generalisation there and nice superiority complex you have.


----------



## mrs phas

@noushka05
All youve done in this thread has gone to waste in that one sentence
Im now another one that has put you on ignore
Not because im a denyier or ignorant or burying my head in the sand, as youd like to believe us of the older generation do
but
because you have offended me, among others, and i dont invite, those who offend me, back into my home

Edit to make the post make sense


----------



## noushka05

mrs phas said:


> All I can say is
> how bloody dare you
> your generation didnt invent scientific knowledge


My generation is probably 'your' generation Mrs Phas, I didn't mean anything personally. We have around a decade to drastically cut our emissions, this means we must change our entire way of life or we face ecological collapse, the collapse of civilisation. A lot of people my generation don't realise this. The younger generation are, generally speaking, far better informed about the consequences of runaway climate breakdown.


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> Because Greta has said time & again that her parents haven't influenced her - she has influenced them.


Sorry but I still don't see how that translates in to lullabydream saying Greta is lying.

Well I for one won't be acting like my house is on fire because if my house were on fire I would get my kids and dogs and leave. I wouldn't try and save it.


----------



## lullabydream

noushka05 said:


> Because Greta has said time & again that her parents haven't influenced her - she has influenced them.


Still that doesn't make me a sad person or equate to me making out Greta is a liar.

I stand by what I say, her parents are nothing but spin doctors.

Do you not think she's the only person her age or younger who has worried and has an interest in climate change and the environment. The difference being is their parents show realistic goals, empower them to do things on smaller scales, and tuck their labels inside because they are more than a bloody label. They also care about their mental health and encourage them to be children because even at times you may have an affluent speaking child in front of you. You still have a child.


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> Sorry but I still don't see how that translates in to lullabydream saying Greta is lying.
> 
> Well I for one won't be acting like my house is on fire because if my house were on fire I would get my kids and dogs and leave. I wouldn't try and save it.


We only have one planet - there is no other planet we can escape to.



lullabydream said:


> Still that doesn't make me a sad person or equate to me making out Greta is a liar.
> 
> I stand by what I say, her parents are nothing but spin doctors.
> 
> Do you not think she's the only person her age or younger who has worried and has an interest in climate change and the environment. The difference being is their parents show realistic goals, empower them to do things on smaller scales, and tuck their labels inside because they are more than a bloody label. They also care about their mental health and encourage them to be children because even at times you may have an affluent speaking child in front of you. You still have a child.


Sorry for misinterpreting your post.

No, I know she isnt. But she is right that nothing has been achieved since we have know about the dangers of climate change - so this is what led her to take action.


----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> A lot of people my generation don't realise this.


How do you know?

You seem to have resorted to making ridiculous statements.


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> How do you know?
> 
> You seem to have resorted to making ridiculous statements.


Because poll after poll shows it.

If people knew we had 11 years to save our planet, surely more people would join the fight ?


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> We only have one planet - there is no other planet we can escape to.


Exactly, that was my point. A house I can replace. I won't act like my house is on fire to save the planet because that analogy doesn't make sense to me. The work for what needs to be done is entirely different than how I would behave if my house were on fire.

Just another example of how what you believe to be correct, and right, and the only way isn't necessarily so.


----------



## Elles

People have been campaigning and protesting for donkey’s years, when it was nothing like as bad as it is now. Unless someone died or famous people got involved like they did with Live Aid, the media didn’t take any notice and they didn’t get the publicity for it. 

These days it doesn’t need famous people, publicity can be a viral video on YouTube.

We can dismiss other’s efforts over the years though, because it didn’t work and they were just stupid grown ups who are now past it and don’t care because they won’t have to live in it.

I detest ageism with a passion. One day it will be viewed the same as the other isms where people are put in a box and generalised over.


----------



## Jobeth

My parents are in their 70s and adapted their retirement bungalow to make it as ‘green’ as possible. Even though they actually get money back from the electricity company this will never cover the initial outlay but they did it to make a difference. My neighbour that litter picks the village is also retired. Age has nothing to do with caring for the environment.


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> My generation is probably 'your' generation Mrs Phas, I didn't mean anything personally. We have around a decade to drastically cut our emissions, this means we must change our entire way of life or we face ecological collapse, the collapse of civilisation. A lot of people my generation don't realise this. The younger generation are, generally speaking, far better informed about the consequences of runaway climate breakdown.


They may be better informed but are they making better choices? I realise that if they are young & still at school then they will have limited control over their lives & choices but are young adults really making significant changes? Are they really living differently to the older generation?

Personally I'm not so sure, it seems that we live in such a throw away society now & young people think that is 'normal' whereas older generations never acted in this way due to limited availability of goods as well as finances. This is just my observations which may be way off so I'd be interested in any facts regarding this. It just made me think when I heard on the news that Primark & Boohoo (typically aimed at young people) have made large profits recently.

Having read about how much the fashion industry is impacting the environment & how clothes from these stores are cheap & not made to last (by the manufacture & that they are seasonal fashion wear) made me wonder ….


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> Exactly, that was my point. A house I can replace. I won't act like my house is on fire to save the planet because that analogy doesn't make sense to me. The work for what needs to be done is entirely different than how I would behave if my house were on fire.
> 
> Just another example of how what you believe to be correct, and right, and the only way isn't necessarily so.


But thats how urgent it is. Whatever we do as individuals will not be enough. We have to force governments to take radical & urgent action. The science is clear.


----------



## Rafa

Cleo38 said:


> They may be better informed but are they making better choices?


Exactly.

It seems to be fashionable for youngsters to always have a plastic bottle of water clutched in their hand.

We drank tap water.

It is a fact that water bottled in plastic is a significant part of the problem.


----------



## Gemmaa

Interesting that older generations always get viewed so negatively.

When I'm out and about I notice it's always older people collecting rubbish and organising regular litter picks in the area - I haven't seen any young people joining in at all.
I see older people planting lots of new trees, and they've all been snapped by the young people we're meant to be worried for.
I see older people creating meadow corridors locally, and arranging environment awareness days.

I'm not seeing the local young people doing much to help protect their environment.


----------



## HarlequinCat

O2.0 said:


> * Those are the only two options you can think of? Either you're alarmed or you're ignorant and/or in denial?
> Sorry but there are multiple more options here.
> Perhaps people are just different? Cope differently? React differently. *
> I tend to default to dead calm in emergencies. Other people freak out. Does that mean I don't care or that I'm just wired differently?
> 
> I care very deeply about this planet and what we are doing to it. And I am actively working to make a difference in ways that I know I actually can make a difference.
> Just because I'm not reacting the same way you are doesn't mean anything really. It just means we're different people - all of us on this thread are.


Exactly this. its not just a concern of younger people either, Im 30, but i can see that the climate has changed even since I was a kid. But as a worrier who tries not to worry, being alarmed about something like this doesnt help at all really.
My Mum is in her 70s - she worries about it. Far too much, and she gets anxious watching anything to do with it so she doesnt. It doesnt mean she doesnt care or is in denial. She does what she can considering her age!


----------



## mrs phas

Strange how so many young blame their elders
Yet
It was a 12yr old my son (26) made go pick up his cookie bag, when he lobbed it towards the bin that was, three feet away (literally), rather than walk one step to put it in the bin
12!
4 years younger than Greta now, 
4 yrs older than she was when she became a selective mute (not unusual for those on the spectrum BTW, my eldest son became mute for a year after his dad died)
So just who's learning what?
That 12yr old didn't give a toss (excuse the pun)
Yet he's, allegedly, who this planet needs saving for


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> They may be better informed but are they making better choices? I realise that if they are young & still at school then they will have limited control over their lives & choices but are young adults really making significant changes? Are they really living differently to the older generation?
> 
> Personally I'm not so sure, it seems that we live in such a throw away society now & young people think that is 'normal' whereas older generations never acted in this way due to limited availability of goods as well as finances. This is just my observations which may be way off so I'd be interested in any facts regarding this. It just made me think when I heard on the news that Primark & Boohoo (typically aimed at young people) have made large profits recently.
> 
> Having read about how much the fashion industry is impacting the environment & how clothes from these stores are cheap & not made to last (by the manufacture & that they are seasonal fashion wear) made me wonder ….


I wouldn't expect all of them were, no. But what they are all crying out for is strong leadership on this issue because they understand climate change is an existential threat to their existence & to the living planet. They dont have a vote, this is the only way they can make their voices heard. They are desperate.


----------



## noushka05

Hope? This is good by Yanis Varoufakis & David Adler.









https://www.theguardian.com/comment...green-new-deal-climate-change-global-response


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Because poll after poll shows it.
> 
> If people knew we had 11 years to save our planet, surely more people would join the fight ?


Very precise measurement of 11 years, with the industrial revolution, market hunting in america and countless other terrible environmental decisions happening donkeys ago, surely you would have thought the world would have burnt to a crisp already?

Putting a definitive time frame on this issue is not helping things, bringing about rational talk about it will. Making small steps like taking away plastic straws and plastic lids, changing materials etc can help industries slowly evolve. Nothing will happen overnight in the eyes of larger companies


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> But thats how urgent it is. Whatever we do as individuals will not be enough. We have to force governments to take radical & urgent action. The science is clear.


Again. 
Where have I said it's not urgent?
Where have I disputed the science?

But more strangely, why are you even arguing with me? I agree that climate change has to be addressed, and urgently, and that corporations need to be forced to make drastic changes. 
I just pointed out that your (Greta's) analogy doesn't work for me. Your overreaction to me simply not liking an analogy is the kind of spinning on a hamster wheel 'activism' that, in my view, serves no useful purpose.

As an aside, I don't agree that what we do as individuals won't be enough though, because I do believe in the power of individuals to influence how corporations behave. All I have to do is look in my regular supermarket isle and see all the meat-free and dairy alternatives that even 5 years ago were not available.


----------



## lullabydream

mrs phas said:


> she is not Autistic, she is Aspergic
> there is a proper scientific distinguishment between the two, although Aspergers is classed as an ASD, you are correct in that.
> As a parent of someone on the spectrum it is very important that the deliniation is correct as to not muddle others


The reason it was re classified as Asperger's as many traits are similar hence now it comes under the umbrella ASC. Which is what the terminology I used when referring to Greta

As a parent of a child who holds a diagnosis of Asperger's, and have worked with children and adults on the spectrum for over 20 years I hold my views of why I used the terminology autism, and ASC and Asperger's the way I do.

Its classed as a spectrum disorder where the phrase you have met one autistic person means you have met one autistic person


----------



## ForestWomble

bearcub said:


> Who are you saying is causing children (although Greta Thunberg is 16) fear and distress? Also, she is autistic which is not in itself a mental illness.


I know that Autism / Aspergers is not a mental health issue, when I mentioned the mental health bit I was talking about children generally and thinking of depression and anxiety and stress.


----------



## O2.0

Animallover26 said:


> I know that Autism / Aspergers is not a mental health issue, when I mentioned the mental health bit I was talking about children generally and thinking of depression and anxiety and stress.


And Greta openly says she suffered severe depression. That is indeed a mental health issue.


----------



## mrs phas

lullabydream said:


> The reason it was re classified as Asperger's as many traits are similar hence now it comes under the umbrella ASC. Which is what the terminology I used when referring to Greta
> 
> As a parent of a child who holds a diagnosis of Asperger's, and have worked with children and adults on the spectrum for over 20 years I hold my views of why I used the terminology autism, and ASC and Asperger's the way I do.
> 
> Its classed as a spectrum disorder where the phrase you have met one autistic person means you have met one autistic person


And as a parent who not only has a child defined as HFA NOT Aspergic
I'm well aware of the definitions
As for accusing me of only knowing one Autistic person, you don't know me or what I did before retiring disabled, or, even, what I do know I have disabled retired, but if you want to score points, I've been working with spectrum children for 30+years
So yeah I think I know what I'm talking about
As a parent of someone with Aspergers, you are an expert on them and their condition only, you are not an expert, nor can you speak on behalf of my child, my POV, or really, the correct definition between aspergers and autism, cos that was fixed many years ago, by Leo Kanner and, latterly, by Hans Asperger, then reintroduced in the 80's by Lorna Wing

This however is nothing to do with this thread, so maybe we'd be better getting back to it, than flexing muscles over who knows what


----------



## mrs phas

O2.0 said:


> And Greta openly says she suffered severe depression. That is indeed a mental health issue.


Until recently it was part of the DSM and, indeed, classed as a mental health issue.
Now it has been separated and other conditions classed as co-morbids, meaning that those on the spectrum are more likely to suffer depression, anxiety, selective mutism, dyspraxia etc than those who are neurotypical


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> As for accusing me of only knowing one Autistic person, you don't know me


I don't think that's what she was saying, I think she was saying that the reason it's put on a spectrum is that Autism presents so individually. In other words, it's just a saying meant to mean that every person you meet with Autism will be very different. Not that you personally have only met one person with Autism.

Sorry @lullabydream I keep speaking for you! I don't mean to jump in, I'm just a little confused at what I'm reading and how differently it gets taken!


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> Until recently it was part of the DSM and, indeed, classed as a mental health issue.
> Now it has been separated and other conditions classed as co-morbids, meaning that those on the spectrum are more likely to suffer depression, anxiety, selective mutism, dyspraxia etc than those who are neurotypical


Okay...
Can I say that I can't imagine it's very nice for a child to be so depressed at 11 that they loose 10 kilos and stunt their own growth?


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> And as a parent who not only has a child defined as HFA NOT Aspergic
> I'm well aware of the definitions
> As for accusing me of only knowing one Autistic person, you don't know me or what I did before retiring disabled, or, even, what I do know I have disabled retired, but if you want to score points, I've been working with spectrum children for 30+years
> So yeah I think I know what I'm talking about
> As a parent of someone with Aspergers, you are an expert on them and their condition only, you are not an expert, nor can you speak on behalf of my child, my POV, or really, the correct definition between aspergers and autism, cos that was fixed many years ago, by Leo Kanner and, latterly, by Hans Asperger, then reintroduced in the 80's by Lorna Wing
> 
> This however is nothing to do with this thread, so maybe we'd be better getting back to it, than flexing muscles over who knows what


I was just typing out what 02 already said lol. That's how I read it too, as 02 did.


----------



## mrs phas

O2.0 said:


> Okay...
> Can I say that I can't imagine it's very nice for a child to be so depressed at 11 that they loose 10 kilos and stunt their own growth?


No its not, neither is it healthy in terms of physical or mental growth
Are you still talking about Greta?


----------



## mrs phas

Then I misread it
And for that I apologise


----------



## lullabydream

O2.0 said:


> I don't think that's what she was saying, I think she was saying that the reason it's put on a spectrum is that Autism presents so individually. In other words, it's just a saying meant to mean that every person you meet with Autism will be very different. Not that you personally have only met one person with Autism.
> 
> Sorry @lullabydream I keep speaking for you! I don't mean to jump in, I'm just a little confused at what I'm reading and how differently it gets taken!


That's exactly what it means and i can't remember which expert quoted it in the field of ASC but it's used often.

Especially when trying to get people to understand people as a whole person, and that the basis is it's a spectrum condition.


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> No its not, neither is it healthy in terms of physical or mental growth
> Are you still talking about Greta?


I'm a little scared to answer! :Hilarious

But yes, the 11 year old stunting her growth was in reference to Greta, but I would add that ANY child in that state would greatly concern me.


----------



## mrs phas

O2.0 said:


> I'm a little scared to answer! :Hilarious
> 
> But yes, the 11 year old stunting her growth was in reference to Greta, but I would add that ANY child in that state would greatly concern me.


As it rightly should, as she comes from a country that is very very hot on child protection issues, and removing children from parental care, for less, i'm surprised they weren't involved


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> If I've upset you be posting it, I didn't mean to & can only apologise. Sorry Molly.


Apology accepted and I am sorry if I came across a bit defensive there.

To add clarity to my posts, I've shopped local and paid attention to air miles for years. I am passionate about social design and minority groups. One area of growing concern is the impact of Western diet changes on people around the world who grow or manufacture the food and them being able to afford their own crops and being paid a living wage - a fair trade. And also seasonal eating. Thanks to supermarkets, we've got used to plugging the hungry gap with imported food.


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> My generation is probably 'your' generation Mrs Phas, I didn't mean anything personally. We have around a decade to drastically cut our emissions, this means we must change our entire way of life or we face ecological collapse, the collapse of civilisation. A lot of people my generation don't realise this. The younger generation are, generally speaking, far better informed about the consequences of runaway climate breakdown.


My husband is probably older than your generation and I can assure you that he's a legend with the recycling.... will often follow me around the house to check I'm doing it correctly along with dishwasher management.. and the environment. I can safely say that it's not all the older generation by a long way 

I also think I maybe your generation and it's very rare that I've found anyone in my peers who isn't concerned... even ones like me without kids...

Neither my husband or I have ever been part of any poll or been asked. @noushka05 are you okay? I'm worried you feel like you have to answer every post on here. There really isn't a need to do that. I realise this is a hugely important issue to you, it's important to everyone else as well.


----------



## MollySmith

May I highly recommend this book.. I do have a personal interest as the designer... but it's a very good book that really puts what we're up against in perspective but also offers fantastic advice on what we can do about it so we're feeling a little less overwhelmed.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm reading this thread and feeling somewhat panic stricken (I wasn't so much before!). But there are manageable actions that we can take that fit into our lives regardless of age, demographic and other variables. This book does just that with a good dollop of perspective. I also saw the author speak at the Cambridge Literary Festival (and George Mobiot at the same event) and came away feeling calmer.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/there-is-no-planet-b/1C152963CE739459C346D76B439A0272


----------



## Elles

I don't feel panic stricken, I don't see the point in panicking and I too are one of those who go totally calm in a crisis. I can quite understand why people are panicking though, that's why I try sometimes to offer links to what is being done and what we can do, to balance it out a bit. If there is no hope, then there's no point and we may as well just write a bucket list. I don't think that's true.

The freaking out about it got so bad, I found myself totally denying that I actually gave a damn about it, which also isn't true of course.

So Thanks for your link @MollySmith


----------



## catz4m8z

Elles said:


> I don't feel panic stricken, I don't see the point in panicking and I too are one of those who go totally calm in a crisis.


I tend to experience a low grade panic about it....just always there bubbling under the surface but as long as you are doing what you can then what else is there?
What I also find interesting is what is happening in politics at the moment. In the UK and US the people in power are just total human disasters and there seems to be a lot of headless chickens running around trying to make decisions. I wonder if thats also a symptom of people trying to make changes but not being able to find anyone in power willing and able to actually do it?
I kinda feel abit sorry for the kids out there striking and making speeches too. I hear alot of mention on them losing their childhood and how they shouldnt have to worry about this kind of stuff....how their health is suffering, is there an agenda from parents or adults?, almost like its some sort of child abuse. TBH to me it feels like patronising someone and invalidating their arguments just because they arent that old. Kids lack experience but they are perfectly capable of logical reasoning and caring about bigger issues. (dont really want to argue that point as its just my point of view, just feels a little bit like persecution to me).


----------



## Magyarmum

Rafa said:


> Seriously?
> 
> How do you know what is going on in the minds of 'older' people?
> 
> Nice generalisation there and nice superiority complex you have.


As one of the (most definitely) "older" generation I'd just like to point out that when we were the "younger" generation we were out marching in our thousands for the CND.

https://flashbak.com/ban-the-bomb-movement-walks-from-aldermaston-to-london-1952-1963-2458/

*Ban the Bomb Movement Walks From Aldermaston To London: 1952-1963*


----------



## Elles

catz4m8z said:


> I tend to experience a low grade panic about it....just always there bubbling under the surface but as long as you are doing what you can then what else is there?
> What I also find interesting is what is happening in politics at the moment. In the UK and US the people in power are just total human disasters and there seems to be a lot of headless chickens running around trying to make decisions. I wonder if thats also a symptom of people trying to make changes but not being able to find anyone in power willing and able to actually do it?
> I kinda feel abit sorry for the kids out there striking and making speeches too. I hear alot of mention on them losing their childhood and how they shouldnt have to worry about this kind of stuff....how their health is suffering, is there an agenda from parents or adults?, almost like its some sort of child abuse. TBH to me it feels like patronising someone and invalidating their arguments just because they arent that old. Kids lack experience but they are perfectly capable of logical reasoning and caring about bigger issues. (dont really want to argue that point as its just my point of view, just feels a little bit like persecution to me).


I think many young people are capable. I certainly was when I was early teens.

I think many children aren't. I watched a video of two very young children wearing over large activist t-shirts and talking about how mummy had taken them to sea world and the circus to show them that it's cruel. And a young boy crying about how we only have 10 years and he doesn't want everyone to die. These children are too young and shouldn't be being taken out of school and shown these things imo. I don't think I'm patronising them or invalidating their arguments, because the arguments aren't theirs. We shouldn't drag them into it in this way. We humans aren't ready to face this when we're very young and vulnerable, it's hard enough when we're adult and I think it is a shame.


----------



## catz4m8z

Elles said:


> I think many children aren't. I watched a video of two very young children wearing over large activist t-shirts and talking about how mummy had taken them to sea world and the circus to show them that it's cruel. And a young boy crying about how we only have 10 years and he doesn't want everyone to die.


I can remember spending nearly an entire week crying and terrified as a child when I realiesed that I was going to die someday. Being confronted with your own mortality is just a fact of life and one that most of us realiese when we are children, along with the lack of santa claus and the tooth fairy! You can sheild kids from the harsher aspects of life (and you should def do so) but I dont think you can prevent them from finding out basic facts of life.
When I was a kid I was just scared of the vague amorphous idea of death (and spontaneous human combustion....weird kid!) but kids today have a very real concern about the 'death' of their planet as it is now.
In other words kids might have difficulty processing scary facts and dealing with them but you arent going to stop them questioning things and worrying about them. Maybe going on strike and protesting would actually be beneficial and allow them to feel like they have some sort of control over their fate, who knows!?


----------



## Rafa

Whilst it is good for the young to be concerned, it is not okay for them to be consumed by fear to the point where they cease to even talk.

I have watched the videos of Greta. She looks and sounds very anxious.

I would never have wanted my kids to live in that state.

Moderation is the word.


----------



## Elles

Kids today are worried about their own mortality, same as you were, it's a natural progression. You say you have a sense of panic bubbling under all the time. How much worse if you're in a fearful stage of growing up, for adults you rely on, to put the welfare of the whole planet on your shoulders and tell you that the planet is being destroyed, no one is doing anything about it and it's up to you. Then put you on tv, so everyone can see you crying about it.

That's how I see it. 

@catz4m8z (nearly forgot) 

ETA I don't agree with telling kids about Father Christmas and a tooth fairy as though it's true. My children knew it was a story for fun and not for real. I don't expect everyone to agree with me though lol.


----------



## catz4m8z

Rafa said:


> I have watched the videos of Greta. She looks and sounds very anxious.
> .


After having a quick Google it seems she has Aspergers and suffers from anxiety, also found an interview where she states that her activism helps with this as it gives her a purpose. I can totally understand that as free floating anxiety is horrible, at least if you have a cause you can feel proactive.
Good for her! She always looks very poised and confident when speaking.
(unless you are a Daily Mail reader...in which case she is mentally ill and being used as child labour by her parents...oh, and climate change isnt real! Its just a conspiracy from the energy companies to hike up our bills!:Hilarious). Daily mail comments sections are comedy gold!LOL


----------



## Elles

catz4m8z said:


> After having a quick Google it seems she has Aspergers and suffers from anxiety, also found an interview where she states that her activism helps with this as it gives her a purpose. I can totally understand that as free floating anxiety is horrible, at least if you have a cause you can feel proactive.
> Good for her! She always looks very poised and confident when speaking.
> (unless you are a Daily Mail reader...in which case she is mentally ill and being used as child labour by her parents...oh, and climate change isnt real! Its just a conspiracy from the energy companies to hike up our bills!:Hilarious). Daily mail comments sections are comedy gold!LOL


She's now 16

What about this kid? 6?


----------



## Rafa

catz4m8z said:


> (unless you are a Daily Mail reader...in which case she is mentally ill and being used as child labour by her parents...oh, and climate change isnt real! Its just a conspiracy from the energy companies to hike up our bills!:Hilarious). Daily mail comments sections are comedy gold!LOL


I am not a Daily Mail reader and it may come as a surprise to you to hear that some of us can form an opinion without reading a newspaper or slavishly repeating what some one else has said.

You have no idea what the rest of us are doing to try and combat climate change.

What are you doing, other than haranguing us?

I asked you this before and you admitted you really don't do anything.

If you care so much, stop preaching to the converted and step up.

Using a child as a tool is not acceptable.


----------



## Elles

People shouldn’t use kids to get their message across, because of Greta, however she came to it. I hope we all we agree that wouldn’t be acceptable at least.  I was more concerned about her as an 8 year old being affected by it, than as a 16 year old and that activists (and teachers) are pushing children into promoting their causes, sometimes very young children. I’d left school at 15.

Moving on through. Apparently, Theresa May was absent from Greta’s meeting, but Michael Gove was there and is meeting the extinction rebellion people next week. Well he is the environment minister I suppose. He knows it’s a hot topic, isn’t a denier and probably still wants to be PM. All useful attributes if you want someone on side. Less cooperative people in the Eu objected to her speaking to the Eu, so she was denied access.


----------



## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> I don't like how since she was 8 she's been terrified.


No, it's totally unhealthy; and many suspect that she has been manipulated. She has famous parents; one wonders if she would be getting the same attention if they worked in a supermarket.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Very precise measurement of 11 years, with the industrial revolution, market hunting in america and countless other terrible environmental decisions happening donkeys ago, surely you would have thought the world would have burnt to a crisp already?
> 
> Putting a definitive time frame on this issue is not helping things, bringing about rational talk about it will. Making small steps like taking away plastic straws and plastic lids, changing materials etc can help industries slowly evolve. Nothing will happen overnight in the eyes of larger companies


Greta explains with far more clarity than I ever could.










And the reason we need urgent & radical action now, is because we failed to take a gradual path 27 years ago.

We soon will be fried to a crisp if we dont act lol








O2.0 said:


> Again.
> Where have I said it's not urgent?
> Where have I disputed the science?
> 
> But more strangely, why are you even arguing with me? I agree that climate change has to be addressed, and urgently, and that corporations need to be forced to make drastic changes.
> I just pointed out that your (Greta's) analogy doesn't work for me. Your overreaction to me simply not liking an analogy is the kind of spinning on a hamster wheel 'activism' that, in my view, serves no useful purpose.


You haven't - twice.

Quite the opposite actually - I'm trying not to argue. I'm trying to address the posts of mine you keep quoting. The greatest crisis we face isn't being treated as a crisis. Thats all the analogy meant which is the truth. In an unprecedented act, tens of thousands of scientists from across the globe have released statements in support of Greta & the striking school children. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-strike-childrens-brave-stand-has-our-support. All she is doing is interpreting what the scientists say into her own words. And the clarity & her blunt way of speaking seems to be working. Unless we vote in progressive leadership, activism is the only way we are going to force the radical change we need - we have tried other methods & failed.



O2.0 said:


> As an aside, I don't agree that what we do as individuals won't be enough though, because I do believe in the power of individuals to influence how corporations behave. All I have to do is look in my regular supermarket isle and see all the meat-free and dairy alternatives that even 5 years ago were not available


And yet US(& global) emissions continue to rise & ecosystems continue to be destroyed at a terrifying rate.

As always, I heed the scientific community who state that without political will it wont be enough.


----------



## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> Apology accepted and I am sorry if I came across a bit defensive there.
> 
> To add clarity to my posts, I've shopped local and paid attention to air miles for years. I am passionate about social design and minority groups. One area of growing concern is the impact of Western diet changes on people around the world who grow or manufacture the food and them being able to afford their own crops and being paid a living wage - a fair trade. And also seasonal eating. Thanks to supermarkets, we've got used to plugging the hungry gap with imported food.


You don't have anything to apologise for x

I hope you don't think I was judging you when I posted that link, because I really wasn't. I know you do loads Molly. We can only try the best we can.



Elles said:


> Apparently, Theresa May was absent from Greta's meeting, but Michael Gove was there and is meeting the extinction rebellion people next week. Well he is the environment minister I suppose. He knows it's a hot topic, isn't a denier and probably still wants to be PM. All useful attributes if you want someone on side. Less cooperative people in the Eu objected to her speaking to the Eu, so she was denied access.


Gove is a master at doublespeak. Completely untrustworthy. He promised Brian May he would look at the science on the badger cull - then against all scientific justification he rolled the cull out across the country overseeing the greatest extermination of badgers. 20 badgers killed every hour since Gove accelerated the cull.

If only people would check out the voting record of MPs When he was SoS for Education he even tried to remove climate change from the school curriculum!


----------



## noushka05

The attacks on Greta by the right are despicable, the lengths they will go to shut down & discredit a young girl is reprehensible. Some are peddling a conspiracy theories in an attempt to undermine her.

Notice Toby got owned - again

*Toby Young trolled Greta Thunberg for being 'privileged' and the takedowns were swift and brutal*

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/04/2...a-thunberg-privileged-takedowns-swift-brutal/


----------



## noushka05

Phase 2.



















Awesome news.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Greta explains with far more clarity than I ever could.


He contradicts himself with his very first line. "Around the year 2030" not accurate "10 years, 252 days and 10 hours from now" very precise. And then in the last paragraph you grabbed, he goes to say "these calculations are not opinions or wild guesses" when in previous paragraphs he says that they do not include all of the data that he sees as relevant.
That means that they weren't accounted for making it a very loose guess at best.

I am not denying that climate change is happening but articles like this can be so easily picked apart


----------



## AlexPed2393

Also instead of protesting why not come up with viable alternatives for businesses, for agriculture, for fossil fuels, for coal, for nuclear. Can't really say wind farms as they require massive amounts of fossil fuels in their manufacture, assembly and maintenance.
What alternatives would you do for plastic bottles, what alternatives would you do for tupperware which is plastic, alternatives for manufacture machinery. I could go on and on and on.


----------



## catz4m8z

Rafa said:


> I am not a Daily Mail reader and it may come as a surprise to you to hear that some of us can form an opinion without reading a newspaper or slavishly repeating what some one else has said.
> 
> You have no idea what the rest of us are doing to try and combat climate change.
> 
> What are you doing, other than haranguing us?
> 
> I asked you this before and you admitted you really don't do anything.
> 
> If you care so much, stop preaching to the converted and step up.
> 
> Using a child as a tool is not acceptable.


I never said you were a DM reader just that they were extremely entertaining....how are you feeling personally attacked by that!?
Also I said I dont do much.....except not fly, eat plant based, recycle, reduce my water consumption, etc which is what everybody should be doing IMO. But you convienently forgot about that part!
Its very disingenuous to complain that Im haranguing you whilst trying to do the same thing back isnt it!?



AlexPed2393 said:


> Also instead of protesting why not come up with viable alternatives for businesses, for agriculture, for fossil fuels, for coal, for nuclear. Can't really say wind farms as they require massive amounts of fossil fuels in their manufacture, assembly and maintenance.
> What alternatives would you do for plastic bottles, what alternatives would you do for tupperware which is plastic, alternatives for manufacture machinery. I could go on and on and on.


I think protesting is what people do because most of us dont have the business acumen, money or fame to make a difference any other way. Personally Im trying to avoid buying any more 'stuff' then what I already have, use a reusable bottel for my wawter and use paper bags instead of tupperware as much as I can.

Also the fact is that alot of kids are passionate, generous little people who get excited by all sorts of things. Sometimes that means dance competitions, singing, sports teams, horse riding, some are even brave enough to go on tv talent shows or debate in front of huge audiences. Some of them do amazing things to raise money for charities they feel strongly about....and some get up and become climate change activists! More power to them, I wouldnt be brave enough to do it!
Im not willing to invalidate their choices on any of those other things so why should this one thing be any different??


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> I never said you were a DM reader just that they were extremely entertaining....how are you feeling personally attacked by that!?


 You must read it yourself to know what they say  LOL or do you just copy and paste what other people say ?
This is what you actually said -
[ (unless you are a Daily Mail reader...in which case she is mentally ill and being used as child labour by her parents...oh, and climate change isnt real! Its just a conspiracy from the energy companies to hike up our bills!:Hilarious). Daily mail comments sections are comedy gold!LOL ]

You're not mocking people, then !
You've berated people here for mocking Emma Thomson etc yet its ok for you to do that.

DM readers or not , Members here have said Gretas parents are using her so you are mocking them .
I dont buy newspapers they are too expensive but I get the DM Saturday for the TV guide so am I allowed to be personally insulted by your post ? . 

I disagree with most things they say but not always .

OMG Look what the DM has done . A great litter pick up . I'm shocked and disgusted. 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ign-clean-litter-towns-countryside-coast.html

Look another rubbish article ( pun intended!) 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4927686/Steve-Backshall-win-war-against-plastic.html


----------



## AlexPed2393

catz4m8z said:


> I think protesting is what people do because most of us dont have the business acumen, money or fame to make a difference any other way


Or they just like to protest and don't want to look for a viable alternative. What is the point in protesting if what you are protesting for is unattainable?

If you don't have the business acumen, work with someone who has, develop a product, idea or concept to help them go green. There are many ways to do it without spending thousands of pounds.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I haven't got young children but, if I had, I would have taken her out of this circus a long, long time ago.


----------



## HarlequinCat

catz4m8z said:


> I never said you were a DM reader just that they were extremely entertaining....how are you feeling personally attacked by that!?


You could be a politician 

I can't stand the Daily Fail and you don't need to read it to form opinions. All of us who say it cannot be good for her, either through experience or from reading the article from the financial Times don't need to read that to come to that thought. Though you assume we do. Or that is the way it comes across on the Internet at least.


----------



## lullabydream

catz4m8z said:


> Also the fact is that alot of kids are passionate, generous little people who get excited by all sorts of things. Sometimes that means dance competitions, singing, sports teams, horse riding, some are even brave enough to go on tv talent shows or debate in front of huge audiences. Some of them do amazing things to raise money for charities they feel strongly about....and some get up and become climate change activists! More power to them, I wouldnt be brave enough to do it!
> Im not willing to invalidate their choices on any of those other things so why should this one thing be any different??


There is a huge difference between having a passion than having an obsession that is detrimental to your health.

For the person who didn't want to discuss Greta as it was just your opinion, you don't seem to have shut up. Quite frankly isn't what this whole thread is about, people's own opinions? If we don't agree we need to be mocked, ridiculed, called names and belittled? Or maybe we should all put a passive aggressive comment about my opinion don't argue with me about it.


----------



## Calvine

I understand that some people with Asperger's are prone to having ''fixations'' with certain things; whether a fixation should be filed under ''obsession'' or ''passion'', @lullabydream, I really don't know (tho' I imagine someone will be along shortly to advise me). My friend's nephew has Asperger's and has recently become, let's say ''fixated'' with the fact that the neighbours are moving. He sits all day by the window so that when he sees the estate agent he can go out and tell her what he thinks of the whole business (in no uncertain terms, it would appear).


----------



## Calvine

Jobeth said:


> My neighbour that litter picks the village is also retired. Age has nothing to do with caring for the environment.


Absolutely: there is a ''tidy group'' here in Richmond who go out every weekend picking up the piles of litter and most of them are above retirement age.


----------



## lullabydream

Obsession is usually the terminology used as it comes with that fixation as you describe. Which can to some extent be completely harmless; other terms not.

As litter picking has been mentioned o know of one adult who has a variety of additional needs an his obsession is litter and putting it in the bin. On the surface seems perfectly harmless doesn't it. Go for a walk he'll pick up litter put it in the bin. Although you have to avoid picnic areas because as soon as he sees something that another family would put down and he presumes it litter he will take it and put it in the bin. That's just one example, then there are night times when he's been somewhere, might have drove passed somewhere and saw litter. All he wants to do is return and place the litter in the appropriate bin. Which isn't always doable.

It's the context we use the word obsession and passionate with. I would say here we are all extremely passionate about are animals, but understand balance. With obsessions there isn't much balance. Celebrity's don't have passionate fans who stalk them, and harrass them. Only the obsessed ones do. They don't see the distress they cause others, or themselves, or danger etc.

Yes people use the words interchangable but as a rule when speaking in context to others probably less familiar to us we use the correct narrative


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Also instead of protesting why not come up with viable alternatives for businesses, for agriculture, for fossil fuels, for coal, for nuclear. Can't really say wind farms as they require massive amounts of fossil fuels in their manufacture, assembly and maintenance.
> What alternatives would you do for plastic bottles, what alternatives would you do for tupperware which is plastic, alternatives for manufacture machinery. I could go on and on and on.


You're missing the point. The point is we can't do these things. I don't have a laboratory, I'm not a scientist, or a large manufacturer, or a government. I don't have money. What they're asking for is big money and governments to invest more time and money in promoting and researching cleaner tech and speed it up, before it's too late. Gove admitted that our government hasn't done enough and says he's listening and is meeting with them next week.

For a long time we've all been told it's down to us, to turn off lights, recycle, buy diesel cars (lol). While our governments, corporations and big business went the easy and profitable route. They are who have to find the money and expertise to invest in alternatives to factory farming, plastic, fossil fuel, not me. It needs to be on a much bigger scale. The little I do will only make a difference if they do more too and that's why the protests.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Or they just like to protest and don't want to look for a viable alternative. What is the point in protesting if what you are protesting for is unattainable?
> 
> If you don't have the business acumen, work with someone who has, develop a product, idea or concept to help them go green. There are many ways to do it without spending thousands of pounds.


And that I'm afraid is just silly. How am I, an ordinary person, going to find the money and people to research safer nuclear power, or a replacement for plastic lol. It's billions/trillions, not a tenner. :Hilarious

I am capable of standing with a banner outside government offices though, trying to persuade the powers that be that I and thousands of others would like them to do so, or to do more than they are, with what was after all, our money.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> You're missing the point. The point is we can't do these things. I don't have a laboratory, I'm not a scientist, or a large manufacturer, or a government. I don't have money. What they're asking for is big money and governments to invest more time and money in promoting and researching cleaner tech and speed it up, before it's too late. Gove admitted that our government hasn't done enough and says he's listening and is meeting with them next week.
> 
> For a long time we've all been told it's down to us, to turn off lights, recycle, buy diesel cars (lol). While our governments, corporations and big business went the easy and profitable route. They are who have to find the money and expertise to invest in alternatives to factory farming, plastic, fossil fuel, not me. It needs to be on a much bigger scale. The little I do will only make a difference if they do more too and that's why the protests.


I understand that a lot of people don't have the funding to work in labs etc. but that doesn't stop them coming up with new ideas. Your brain is free. I can't remember the name of the kid that is dredging plastic from the ocean but I think that is a perfect example of an idea that can do good.

I personally don't think governments can or will bring about the change, they will put measures in place that businesses etc have to follow and then whichever company is ahead of the curve first and is able to take the huge financial hit of adopting new and less profitable technology will once again be the biggest and best in the world. 
I'm not saying it is up to the general populace to create new materials, but if you (not you, I mean a group of people ) don't have any ideas as to how we get to zero emissions then what hope do those have that aren't as invested as these groups.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> And that I'm afraid is just silly. How am I, an ordinary person, going to find the money and people to research safer nuclear power, or a replacement for plastic lol. It's billions/trillions, not a tenner. :Hilarious
> 
> I am capable of standing with a banner outside government offices though, trying to persuade the powers that be that I and thousands of others would like them to do so, or to do more than they are, with what was after all, our money.


Who will put up the billions/trillions, can't force anyone to do it (devils advocate). You might be able to think of an idea for an alternative to plastic lids, there are those who are educated enough to think up ideas and science behind new power sources through equations (which is how it is done now).


----------



## catz4m8z

kimthecat said:


> You must read it yourself to know what they say  LOL or do you just copy and paste what other people say ?
> You're not mocking people, then !
> You've berated people here for mocking Emma Thomson etc yet its ok for you to do that.
> 
> DM readers or not , Members here have said Gretas parents are using her so you are mocking them .
> I dont buy newspapers they are too expensive but I get the DM Saturday for the TV guide so am I allowed to be personally insulted by your post ? .


Not sure about 'copy and paste' but the most technical thing I can do is qoute others from the forum. I dont know how to use outside sources!:Shy
Also I dont believe I have ever mocked anybody as its something I really dont agree with (hence me not liking ET being mocked). If you have read something as mocking then that would not have been its intent, for example when I said 'unless _you_ read the DM' I meant in general not you specifically.....maybe I should have said 'unless one reads the DM' but Im not that posh!:Hilarious
Sometimes people will just quote you as a jumping off point for something they want to talk about...its not always a personal attack on you.



AlexPed2393 said:


> What is the point in protesting if what you are protesting for is unattainable?


I think most major changes in society have started off as being thought unattainable though. Should Emmeline Pankhurst have given up protesting because nobody in power thought that women should have the vote??


----------



## O2.0

Protests don't have to be waving banners. We can also effect great change with our purchase power. Financial boycotts work. Consumer demands work. 
When we refuse to buy products containing palm oil, companies find ways to produce those same products without it. 
There are multiple similar examples of how consumers can put pressure on corporations in a way those corporations will respond to. 

I know one thing, arguing on a pet forum, and posting twitter links is not a beneficial use of my time


----------



## AlexPed2393

catz4m8z said:


> I think most major changes in society have started off as being thought unattainable though. Should Emmeline Pankhurst have given up protesting because nobody in power thought that women should have the vote??


Women having the right to vote is a little different to the massively complex scenario of climate change. Most if not all scientists agree that it is happening but the worlds use of certain things is so ingrained into everything we do that a complete reset is almost needed.

That means changing manufacture for soap, engines, food, EVERYTHING will need to be altered. When people say they are wearing vegan shoes, you can ask but what were those vegan shoes made with...

@O2.0 made a great point of boycotting being a form of protest, like the palm oil thing, I'm sure Nutella aren't having the best time right now because of that.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Who will put up the billions/trillions, can't force anyone to do it (devils advocate). You might be able to think of an idea for an alternative to plastic lids, there are those who are educated enough to think up ideas and science behind new power sources through equations (which is how it is done now).


That's not enough, plastic lids? Lol. I'm sorry @AlexPed2393

However, if I did agree, what's to stop me making the alternative to plastic lids if I can as well as hitting the streets to protest about big money not doing it? I'm sure some of the people there also have 'green' businesses.

Showing them that thousands are interested enough to take to the streets, makes them think, oh look at all those people ka-ching, profit. Or votes. Don't you want money invested in cleaner, more efficient alternatives to windfarms and fracking? Don't you want cleaner air and oceans? We can't force anyone to do anything, but we can through peaceful protest show them that we'd like them to and show other people that they haven't been.

While you think you're doing your bit, the people telling you to do it and who have the power and finance to do more, haven't just been doing less, they've been doing more to destroy than nurture. They need to shift their investment and find solutions faster.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## lullabydream

catz4m8z said:


> I think most major changes in society have started off as being thought unattainable though. Should Emmeline Pankhurst have given up protesting because nobody in power thought that women should have the vote??


You do realise that it wasn't the behaviour of the suffragettes per se that gave women the right to vote? It was due to the efforts of women doing 'men's work' in the war. Plus the UK need voters.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> That's not enough, plastic lids?


Got to start somewhere :Hilarious


----------



## catz4m8z

AlexPed2393 said:


> Women having the right to vote is a little different to the massively complex scenario of climate change. Most if not all scientists agree that it is happening but the worlds use of certain things is so ingrained into everything we do that a complete reset is almost needed.


True, its not the same thing.....except in some ways it is! Taking that example alot of scientists believed that womens brains were so different from mens that they couldnt be allowed any power or real responsibility as they were too hysterical! It seems beyond ridiculous that such cartoon logic was espoused as scientific fact but if you go back far enough you can find all kinds of crazy examples of so called scientists 'proving' things that kept the status quo intact.
Does make me wonder what the long term effects of climate change will actually be, given that there are so many variables. Obviously we can all agree things will be very bad in the future but I dont think anybody can say for sure what that will look like.

I do agree @AlexPed2393 that a massive overhaul is needed but I really dont see that happening as it would mean the fatcats in charge would have to make the change. Our best hope lies with all us little people voting with our wallets, boycotting unsustainable practices and making our voices heard.


----------



## AlexPed2393

catz4m8z said:


> Taking that example alot of scientists believed that womens brains were so different from mens that they couldnt be allowed any power or real responsibility as they were too hysterical


But most scientists agree that climate change is a thing...

Anyway most likely a huge boycott in some form to change unsustainable practices will have the biggest alterations in big money.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Got to start somewhere :Hilarious


It's getting a bit late in the day to start.  There have been alternatives to Tupperware and plastic packaging practically since the Stone Age lol. Manufacturers need to go back to them. We do need new innovations if we want to keep what we have though. Wouldn't it be fantastic if those in power actually listened, started to get concerned about their own futures (and profits) and moved towards a healthier planet? I think so. Some of us are doing our bit and the protests get attention if nothing else.

Boycott is also good. I'm not giving up my electricity and tv just yet though. Another few weeks of game of thrones and line of duty. Governments can invest in safer, cleaner, more efficient ways of providing power than fracking, or even windfarms though and I'll bonk them over the head with my placard until I knock some sense into them if I have to.

It's not just boycotts though. Laws can be changed and manufacturers and governments sign up to and comply with them. The shift needs to be now, before other peoples who aren't quite there yet, are dragged into our form of self destruction.


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> Not sure about 'copy and paste' but the most technical thing I can do is qoute others from the forum. I dont know how to use outside sources!:Shy


Well I hope you check out the info they give and not blindly quote . If you have a search engine then you can check out most things.


----------



## lullabydream

Will people stop knocking me tupperware! The plastic lunchboxes I have and containers I got off my mum so I presume they are stone aged anyway. When clearing out my kitchen cupboards when my son came back from uni, some has now been handed over to him. Am not buying he said as we have had this for ages and still works! Except he said no to the bright orange container for some reason!

I know lots of people have been a throw away society, our government hasn't helped at all later than most for recycling schemes etc, or the fat cats etc.

@AlexPed2393 bamboo is the alternative to many things now, from toilet rolls to plastic lunchboxes if you weren't in the know and you like to buy things to replace readily!


----------



## MilleD

lullabydream said:


> Will people stop knocking me tupperware! The plastic lunchboxes I have and containers I got off my mum so I presume they are stone aged anyway. When clearing out my kitchen cupboards when my son came back from uni, some has now been handed over to him. Am not buying he said as we have had this for ages and still works! Except he said no to the bright orange container for some reason!
> 
> I know lots of people have been a throw away society, our government hasn't helped at all later than most for recycling schemes etc, or the fat cats etc.
> 
> @AlexPed2393 bamboo is the alternative to many things now, from toilet rolls to plastic lunchboxes if you weren't in the know and you like to buy things to replace readily!


Is bamboo sustainable? What will the pandas eat??


----------



## lullabydream

MilleD said:


> Is bamboo sustainable? What will the pandas eat??


I don't know...have they still not got, you know their mojo in the wild? Maybe scientist could work on bamboo replacements for them? Who knows!


----------



## MilleD

lullabydream said:


> I don't know...have they still not got, you know their mojo in the wild? Maybe scientist could work on bamboo replacements for them? Who knows!


Personally I can't believe the things aren't extinct. They've been trying sooooooo hard for years


----------



## lullabydream

MilleD said:


> Personally I can't believe the things aren't extinct. They've been trying sooooooo hard for years


I actually thought it was more a softly softly approach and that was the problem!


----------



## catz4m8z

kimthecat said:


> blindly quote.


you are funny!:Hilarious



MilleD said:


> Is bamboo sustainable? What will the pandas eat??


Hopefully they can transition onto something more suitable...like maybe Maccy Ds!andaandaanda
Last week a friend bought me a set of dishes made out of bamboo coz its all sustainable apparently...*grumbles* would of been more sustainable if she had bought me nothing like I asked coz I have no need for useless crap.


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> you are funny!:Hilarious


Absolutely !  Id like to return the compliment but while I find some of your posts a joke , I dont find them funny.


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely !  Id like to return the compliment but while I find some of your posts a joke , I dont find them funny.


That's one of the funniest things I have read in ages...

Obviously just my opinion!


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely !  Id like to return the compliment but while I find some of your posts a joke , I dont find them funny.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely !  Id like to return the compliment but while I find some of your posts a joke , I dont find them funny.


:Woot:Smuggrin:Hilarious


----------



## catz4m8z

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely !  Id like to return the compliment but while I find some of your posts a joke , I dont find them funny.


well, as long as you dont mind somebody laughing at you and not with you, thats what matters!


----------



## kimthecat

catz4m8z said:


> well, as long as you dont mind somebody laughing at you and not with you, thats what matters!


Well, you cope with that so I'm sure I can.


----------



## bearcub

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I haven't got young children but, if I had, I would have taken her out of this circus a long, long time ago.


Doesn't a good parent enable their child to have autonomy over their decisions though?


----------



## Elles

Should probably start a parenting thread, or alternatively join Netmums. ummy1


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> Should probably start a parenting thread, or alternatively join Netmums. ummy1


Oh gawd no!!
To both!! :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## MollySmith

lullabydream said:


> Will people stop knocking me tupperware! The plastic lunchboxes I have and containers I got off my mum so I presume they are stone aged anyway. When clearing out my kitchen cupboards when my son came back from uni, some has now been handed over to him. Am not buying he said as we have had this for ages and still works! Except he said no to the bright orange container for some reason!
> 
> I know lots of people have been a throw away society, our government hasn't helped at all later than most for recycling schemes etc, or the fat cats etc.
> 
> @AlexPed2393 bamboo is the alternative to many things now, from toilet rolls to plastic lunchboxes if you weren't in the know and you like to buy things to replace readily!


I'm not knocking tupperware, why is everyone doing that?!

It's SINGLE USE PLASTIC that we have to worry about!

Do be careful that if it was made before 2011, it could contain BPA chemicals that are dangerous But there's lots of things that can be done with old plastic containers to keep them away from landfill.

https://www.idealhome.co.uk/diy-and-decorating/alternative-tupperware-uses-6918


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> I'm not knocking tupperware, why is everyone doing that?!
> 
> It's SINGLE USE PLASTIC that we have to worry about!
> 
> Do be careful that if it was made before 2011, it could contain BPA chemicals that are dangerous But there's lots of things that can be done with old plastic containers to keep them away from landfill.
> 
> https://www.idealhome.co.uk/diy-and-decorating/alternative-tupperware-uses-6918


I thought it was tongue in cheek and carried it on. I'm not a serious anti Tupperware activist.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> Is bamboo sustainable? What will the pandas eat??


Nope it's not necessarily sustainable. The majority of bamboo is grown in China, and there is no information regarding how intensively bamboo is being harvested, or what sort of land clearing might be underway in order to make way for the bamboo. Also, although bamboo doesn't need pesticides, there is no guarantee that they are not being used to maximise outputs.

In terms of fabric production, bamboo linen is made by hand so that is' more expensive but also isn't that soft. If one wanted to buy bamboo rayon (the soft stuff) then that is subjected to a chemical process - more here https://inhabitat.com/ecouterre/how-eco-friendly-is-bamboo-fabric-really/

Bamboo certainly is better as it grows so fast but how it's made into products and how sustainable that process is... well it depends on the sources. Delft University say yes, it's fine...
www.inbar.int/how-green-are-bamboo-products

The Telegraph has other thoughts 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance...-products-really-the-eco-friendly-option.html

So I think it's like everything - another area where we have to check the source than blindly buy it assuming it's okay. The Ethical Consumer is my go to site.
https://www.ethicalconsumer.org


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> I thought it was tongue in cheek and carried it on. I'm not a serious anti Tupperware activist.


I'm trying think of a hipster name for your campaign


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> I'm trying think of a hipster name for your campaign


Tupperware or tupperbeware?


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> Tupperware or tupperbeware?


Ooh clever ! I like that 

I have tupperware but dont tell anyone! :Woot


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Ooh clever ! I like that
> 
> Dont tell anyone but I have tupperware :Woot


Sssh! so do I,
its about 30yrs old and still burps


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> He contradicts himself with his very first line. "Around the year 2030" not accurate "10 years, 252 days and 10 hours from now" very precise. And then in the last paragraph you grabbed, he goes to say "these calculations are not opinions or wild guesses" when in previous paragraphs he says that they do not include all of the data that he sees as relevant.
> That means that they weren't accounted for making it a very loose guess at best.
> 
> I am not denying that climate change is happening but articles like this can be so easily picked apart


Hes a She Alex. Greta is a 16 year old girl. She is interpreting the science into her own words. And world leading climate scientists support her. To avert dangerous climate change the scientists state:_ Global net human-caused emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) would need to fall by about 45 percent from 2010 levels by 2030, reaching 'net zero' around 2050 _Here is the summary of the actual IPCC report. https://www.ipcc.ch/2018/10/08/summ...obal-warming-of-1-5c-approved-by-governments/

Like all fields of science, climate science is all about evidence - it is not based on making very loose guesses. It is backed up by empirical evidence & observations by scientific modelling. Scientific predictions are based on a range of probabilities where there is a range of possible outcomes - where some outcomes are far more likely than others.

Greta's understanding & interpretation of the crisis we face is profound. She is wise beyond her years.

This, imo, is the most important thing anyone could read. Alarmingly many people dismiss this as they have been duped by a handful of contrarian scientists, denier blogs, right wing think tanks & lobby groups such as climate change denier Nigel Lawsons GWPF. Climate change deniel is based on anti-science, it is a danger to our very existence.






























AlexPed2393 said:


> Also instead of protesting why not come up with viable alternatives for businesses, for agriculture, for fossil fuels, for coal, for nuclear. Can't really say wind farms as they require massive amounts of fossil fuels in their manufacture, assembly and maintenance.
> What alternatives would you do for plastic bottles, what alternatives would you do for tupperware which is plastic, alternatives for manufacture machinery. I could go on and on and on.


We have to switch to a sustainable economic model.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> climate change isnt real!


I read that Piers Corbyn (elder brother of Ooooh-Jeremy-Corbyn) is a climate change denier with a vengeance. I think I possibly read it in DM which is my 'go to' paper for a laugh when there is nothing funny on the threads of PF.


----------



## Calvine

lullabydream said:


> I know lots of people have been a throw away society


Agree; really annoys me that there are so many things you can't get even repaired now, or if you do, the repair costs as much as a brand new one with a 12-month warranty, making it a no-brainer. We have become a totally obsolescent society.


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> Protests don't have to be waving banners. We can also effect great change with our purchase power. Financial boycotts work. Consumer demands work.
> When we refuse to buy products containing palm oil, companies find ways to produce those same products without it.
> There are multiple similar examples of how consumers can put pressure on corporations in a way those corporations will respond to.
> 
> I know one thing, arguing on a pet forum, and posting twitter links is not a beneficial use of my time


Despite consumer power the USA has far lower standards than EU countries because the US government does not regulate corporate interests as strictly as we do. When we leave the EU legislation which protects our environment (animals, the public, workers) from the worst of corporate greed will be rolled back to your standards. Deregulation is the reason the elite are pushing for brexit. My point is without political will we will not be able to avert looming climate/ ecological catastrophe. The future for our children, for life on earth, is in grave peril.


----------



## Jonescat

We have a monthly repair cafe that anyone can go to, where there are tools to borrow and people that will help you fix your broken thing, they tend to run on a theme, like leather or toys or small electronics. 

Youtube and the internet are also very helpful as nearly everything has been fixed by someone somewhere, and lots of them post diagrams, instructions and videos. We replaced an element in the cooker two weeks ago for £9 for the bit from ebay, and used Youtube for the instructions.


----------



## noushka05

As our planet burns our government goes full blown UKIP.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Agree; really annoys me that there are so many things you can't get even repaired now, or if you do, the repair costs as much as a brand new one with a 12-month warranty, making it a no-brainer. We have become a totally obsolescent society.


That's capitalism for ya


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Hes a She Alex. Greta is a 16 year old girl. She is interpreting the science into her own words. And world leading climate scientists support her. To avert dangerous climate change the scientists state:_ Global net human-caused emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) would need to fall by about 45 percent from 2010 levels by 2030, reaching 'net zero' around 2050 _Here is the summary of the actual IPCC report. https://www.ipcc.ch/2018/10/08/summ...obal-warming-of-1-5c-approved-by-governments/
> 
> Like all fields of science, climate science is all about evidence - it is not based on making very loose guesses. It is backed up by empirical evidence & observations by scientific modelling. Scientific predictions are based on a range of probabilities where there is a range of possible outcomes - where some outcomes are far more likely than others.
> 
> Greta's understanding & interpretation of the crisis we face is profound. She is wise beyond her years.
> 
> This, imo, is the most important thing anyone could read. Alarmingly many people dismiss this as they have been duped by a handful of contrarian scientists, denier blogs, right wing think tanks & lobby groups such as climate change denier Nigel Lawsons GWPF. Climate change deniel is based on anti-science, it is a danger to our very existence.
> 
> We have to switch to a sustainable economic model.


That's all well and good but doesn't answer the question as to why 2030 which is what I was arguing against. I am in full agreement that climate change is a thing and that it has negative consequences. I am not in agreement with how people feel to be the most effective way to go about reducing our damage to the planet


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> That's all well and good but doesn't answer the question as to why 2030 which is what I was arguing against. I am in full agreement that climate change is a thing and that it has negative consequences. I am not in agreement with how people feel to be the most effective way to go about reducing our damage to the planet


I have to go out now Alex, but I will try to explain when I get home


----------



## Jason25

I'm all for helping the planet, I've made several changes in my life to be more greener. Reduced how much plastic I use. Walking a lot more, making sure things are turned off, recycling etc. 

I don't see how standing in the middle of busy roads causing 100s of cars to queue up is doing anything positive? Surely its making the engines run for longer causing more pollution?


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> Despite consumer power the USA has far lower standards than EU countries because the US government does not regulate corporate interests as strictly as we do. When we leave the EU legislation which protects our environment (animals, the public, workers) from the worst of corporate greed will be rolled back to your standards. Deregulation is the reason the elite are pushing for brexit. My point is without political will we will not be able to avert looming climate/ ecological catastrophe. The future for our children, for life on earth, is in grave peril.


Cool.

I will still continue to refuse to buy any products with palm oil. 
I will continue to support companies who's practices support sustainability, fair trade, and are environmentally friendly. 
I will continue to buy local as much as I can, and avoid meat and dairy entirely.
I will continue to contact companies who put their products in plastic instead of more environmentally friendly packaging that I would love to buy their product but can't bring myself to because of the packaging and encourage others to do the same, and when I see those companies switch packaging due to consumer pressure I'll make sure to support them with my purchase power.

Maybe it doesn't make a lick of difference, maybe it does. But doing this feels a lot more like I'm actually doing something than standing in the street protesting. To me at least. If protesting is your thing, awesome, go for it. Personally, I don't have the luxury of being able to travel to a big city (where the protest will actually be noticed), leave my animals and kids unattended, take time off work, in order to stand in the street and hold a placard.
The stuff I've listed? That I can do. So I will. Sorry if that's not good enough for you.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> Sssh! so do I,
> its about 30yrs old and still burps


Oh goodness I forgot about the burp!!


----------



## Calvine

O2.0 said:


> because of the packaging


Everything does seem to be offered for sale in twice the packaging it actually needs. I bought a pack of felt-tipped pens a couple of days ago, and getting them out of their packaging was like breaking into Fort Knox. I can see with something like a toothbrush, it has to be well-sealed for reasons of hygiene, but so many things could be sold with less; but I suppose what is on the wrapping is part of the marketing used to sell the product.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> That's all wbell and good but doesn't answer the question as to why 2030 which is what I was arguing against. I am in full agreement that climate change is a thing and that it has negative consequences. I am not in agreement with how people feel to be the most effective way to go about reducing our damage to the planet


Global temperatures have risen around 1C above pre-industrial levels, this is because of the C02 & other greenhouse gasses we have been pumping into the atmosphere & already we are feeling the effects global warming. The atmosphere & oceans have warmed, weather anomalies are increasing, ice caps are melting, seas are acidifying & rising due to this increased warming. This is just with a 1C rise in temperature. . Every bit of warming matters as it increases the serious risks of unstoppable and catastrophic events which would lead to even more warming. This means that it will create an unstoppable chain reaction as it releases feedback loops such as methane stored in the perma-frosts & the oceans, and simply reducing our emissions will have no effect. We know we're on a trajectory to 1.5C, we have until around 2030 to almost halve our emissions. We must reduce them to have the best hope of staying below it. If we do not we are on a course for catastrophe.



O2.0 said:


> Cool.
> 
> I will still continue to refuse to buy any products with palm oil.
> I will continue to support companies who's practices support sustainability, fair trade, and are environmentally friendly.
> I will continue to buy local as much as I can, and avoid meat and dairy entirely.
> I will continue to contact companies who put their products in plastic instead of more environmentally friendly packaging that I would love to buy their product but can't bring myself to because of the packaging and encourage others to do the same, and when I see those companies switch packaging due to consumer pressure I'll make sure to support them with my purchase power.
> 
> Maybe it doesn't make a lick of difference, maybe it does. But doing this feels a lot more like I'm actually doing something than standing in the street protesting. To me at least. If protesting is your thing, awesome, go for it. Personally, I don't have the luxury of being able to travel to a big city (where the protest will actually be noticed), leave my animals and kids unattended, take time off work, in order to stand in the street and hold a placard.
> The stuff I've listed? That I can do. So I will. Sorry if that's not good enough for you.


I didn't say we as individuals shouldn't be doing our bit I would add to your list we should use a green energy supplier & we should take responsibility for our politics and use our vote wisely because, as I say, whatever we do as individuals, without strong leadership on climate action, will not be enough to save our living planet. Which is why I am baffled at the animosity towards activists who, without this political will, are our best hope of forcing change in the extremely short time frame we have.

It isn't me its not good enough for, so please don't take my posts personally, I'm simply relaying the message of the scientists.


----------



## noushka05

Jason25 said:


> Surely its making the engines run for longer causing more pollution?


Quite the opposite actually 

*Pollutionwatch: air better in Extinction Rebellion areas*
London roads were blocked by climate activists, reducing flow of traffic

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...n-extinction-rebellion-areas?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## Calvine

Jason25 said:


> I don't see how standing in the middle of busy roads causing 100s of cars to queue up is doing anything positive?


And interfering with public transport so that thousands more people will resort to taxis and their own cars seems badly thought out too. And irritating (to say the least) for people who spend £8000 a year for the privilege of commuting to work.


----------



## noushka05

People are going to flip their lids when they see this Will someone as loved and respected as David Attenborough feel a backlash I wonder?

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...school-climate-strikes-outrage-greta-thunberg


----------



## noushka05

Really admire Chris & Greta. Sadly they have made themselves targets for courageously sticking their heads above the parapet.


----------



## Calvine

O2.0 said:


> I don't have the luxury of being able to travel to a big city


And many people do not have the luxury of taking time off work because they are prevented from getting there - or ten days with nothing else to do.


----------



## Elles

Is Banksy reading petforums?  I wonder if it was him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48064132


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Is Banksy reading petforums?  I wonder if it was him.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48064132
> 
> View attachment 401960


Hardly environmentally friendly to use aerosol sprays and leave graffiti (yes I'm well aware that Banksy is now revered, but call a spade a spade)


----------



## Elles

Living isn’t environmentally friendly. Maybe Banksy uses eco paint, or if he hasn’t in the past will switch to it. If it is Banksy.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Living isn't environmentally friendly. Maybe Banksy uses eco paint, or if he hasn't in the past will switch to it. If it is Banksy.


 eco paint still contains VOCs and many are still toxic if breathed in
plus
how is defacing someone elses property any different from cutting down a tree?
both are vandalism at the end of the day


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Hardly environmentally friendly to use aerosol sprays and leave graffiti


 Aerosols contain something to cause the actual spray . . . is it some sort of gas (whatever it is that makes them different from a ''silent'' spray [like flea spray]). Maybe it's CO2, not sure tho'.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Maybe Banksy uses eco paint


Talking of paint, which we seem to be, I read that the Sussexes have painted the nursery with ''eucalyptus-infused'' paint. Thought I would casually mention that little gem - saw the Banksy paint bit and seized my opportunity! I must say, those Sussexes are frightfully ''new age'', aren't they?


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> eco paint still contains VOCs and many are still toxic if breathed in
> plus
> how is defacing someone elses property any different from cutting down a tree?
> both are vandalism at the end of the day


Banksy can vandalise my house any time he wants to. Please, feel free Banksy.. I think the eco people used chalk and I think this is just argument for argument's sake. The concrete wall he 'vandalised' was hardly a cathedral in the centre of a rain forest (if it was him) and we don't know what paint he used.

There's a difference between art and just vandalism though. Cutting down a tree kills it and we need trees.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Banksy can vandalise my house any time he wants to. Please, feel free Banksy..
> 
> There's a difference between art and just vandalism though. Cutting down a tree kills it and we need trees.


thats the point though
IF it is proved to be a 'Banksy' then the council ( westminster?) will just take it and sell it for more money to put into their vast coffers, nothing good can come of it

as for your other point
Trees can be replanted and add to the lessening of climate destruction, in fact, Im sure I read somewhere, ( cant find it at this minute though) that the uptake of co2 is larger in growing trees, than fully grown 
graffitti ( art is subjective after all) is criminal damage and has to be covered or removed, at tax payers expense and, possibly, causing more, if only slight, climate damage


----------



## Elles

Don’t see why graffiti can’t be left where it is, if it’s in some grotty area and isn’t racist, or swearing or anything. Brightens the place up, or is interesting. Sometimes we get up ourselves unnecessarily imo with jobsworths in the council.  I don’t think it matters if whoever sells it either. The money wasn’t there in the first place.

That’s if it is a Banksy. The writing on the wall doesn’t seem enigmatic enough, though maybe that’s it. The writing is on the wall.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Don't see why graffiti can't be left where it is, if it's in some grotty area and isn't racist, or swearing or anything. Brightens the place up, or is interesting. Sometimes we get up ourselves unnecessarily imo with jobsworths in the council.  I don't think it matters if whoever sells it either. The money wasn't there in the first place.
> 
> That's if it is a Banksy. The writing on the wall doesn't seem enigmatic enough, though maybe that's it. The writing is on the wall.


the point is, its not in a grotty run down area, it in Marble Arch an area that is a huge 'tourist attraction' which in turn, generates income
neither, imho, does a grey and black stencil work, stencilled onto grey concrete
'brighten up the place'


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> the point is, its not in a grotty run down area, it in Marble Arch an area that is a huge 'tourist attraction' which in turn, generates income
> neither, imho, does a grey and black stencil work, stencilled onto grey concrete
> 'brighten up the place'


Or interesting. Banksy would come under 'interesting'. 

I did say earlier that they needed Banksy to do their graffiti. I hope it was him. I like it either way. 

A Banksy would bring in a lot of tourists. A fake Banksy would bring in a lot tourists, trying to work out whether it's fake or not. 

Clearly we aren't going to agree. I see no issue with a stencil on a concrete wall. If it was some kind of fascist, racist, or otherwise offensive prose, I'd have a problem. If it was spray painted over the Mona Lisa, I'd have a problem, but it's not. I'd have a problem with fascist, racist promotion anywhere though.

We're both entitled to our opinion, I think we both (and petforums) know what that is now lol. We should agree to differ. :Artist


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Or interesting.
> A Banksy would bring in a lot of tourists. A fake Banksy would bring in a lot tourists, trying to work out whether it's fake or not.


If its proven, do you really think it will stay on public show
you really cannot be that naive


----------



## Rafa

Nobody has any right at all to vandalise property that doesn't belong to them, even if it is the much ballyhooed 'Banksy'.


----------



## Elles

Well I think, you’re a miserable lot, Banksy isn’t vandalism in my view and I hope it was him. I think it’s marvellous that graffiti can be interesting, artistic and of value, enhancing concrete walls and run down areas. I enjoy the work, when it’s as good as this, Banksy, or no Banksy and if it’s not him, he has a very good competitor.


----------



## grumpy goby

Deleted


----------



## Rafa

If you deface property that doesn't belong to you, it's vandalism.

It makes no difference whether it's an 'enigmatic' image or an 'F' word in bright red paint ………… it's vandalism.

Makes no difference at all who did it.


----------



## Elles

I agree, of course. Why wouldn’t I? The law is the law. Graffiti is illegal, unless it’s somewhere agreed and provided.

Deface?

deface definition: To deface is defined as to spoil the appearance, mar or disfigure. (verb)

I’d argue that a Banksy style stencil on a concrete wall is enhancing it and a £500k to a £1,000,000 price tag tells me I’m not alone. It does seem to matter what it is and who did it, regardless of whether it should or not.

Obviously I know it’s illegal and they spend a fortune painting over it and scrubbing it off. I don’t have to agree with it and graffiti can still be art, whether it’s legal or not.


----------



## Elles

Getting there. Hopefully fracking will be abandoned sooner rather than later.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48081314


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> graffitti ( art is subjective after all) is criminal damage


I suppose, technically, that is what graffiti are, and if you were caught in the act, you'd be nicked; but I saw a graffito recently which was spectacular, so much so that people were taking photos of it.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Global temperatures have risen around 1C above pre-industrial levels, this is because of the C02 & other greenhouse gasses we have been pumping into the atmosphere & already we are feeling the effects global warming. The atmosphere & oceans have warmed, weather anomalies are increasing, ice caps are melting, seas are acidifying & rising due to this increased warming. This is just with a 1C rise in temperature. . Every bit of warming matters as it increases the serious risks of unstoppable and catastrophic events which would lead to even more warming. This means that it will create an unstoppable chain reaction as it releases feedback loops such as methane stored in the perma-frosts & the oceans, and simply reducing our emissions will have no effect. We know we're on a trajectory to 1.5C, we have until around 2030 to almost halve our emissions. We must reduce them to have the best hope of staying below it. If we do not we are on a course for catastrophe.


You're saying all this and I mostly agree, but it still doesn't answer the question of why 2030.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You're saying all this and I mostly agree, but it still doesn't answer the question of why 2030.


Sorry, I'll try again to help you understand. 2030 is the timescale given by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (the IPCC).. If we want to avoid dangerous climate breakdown we must keep temperatures below 1.5C so we have to act fast as its likely we have already passed the 1C pre-industrial mark. So the goal is to reduce emissions by almost half by 2030 and to net zero by 2050. Of course we should aim to reduce them faster because every bit of warming matters. Does this make more sense?


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> If you deface property that doesn't belong to you, it's vandalism.
> 
> It makes no difference whether it's an 'enigmatic' image or an 'F' word in bright red paint ………… it's vandalism.
> 
> Makes no difference at all who did it.


Banksy is using his profile, his art, to raise awareness of the greatest crisis we face. He is a champion of social & environmental justice.


----------



## noushka05

The point I was making on the royal baby thread.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Congratulations to Meghan and Harry. It's a baby.


----------



## Cleo38

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Congratulations to Meghan and Harry. It's a baby.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Congratulations to Meghan and Harry. It's a baby.




My brother in law was one of the doctors who was present when Princess Anne gave birth to her daughter Zara (Zara Tindall). He confirmed she'd been delivered of a baby daughter, not a foal!


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's a baby.


Exactly.


----------



## Rafa

Newspapers exist to make profit.

They are going to print what they believe will sell papers - i.e. what the public want to read.

In a World so full of bad news, and the seemingly endless Brexit fiasco, why should the birth of a baby not be celebrated?


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> Newspapers exist to make profit.
> 
> They are going to print what they believe will sell papers - i.e. what the public want to read.
> 
> In a World so full of bad news, and the seemingly endless Brexit fiasco, why should the birth of a baby not be celebrated?


Because the media is supposed to inform us. If it had we likely wouldn't be stuck with this brexit fiasco.


----------



## Bisbow

Isn't it amazing how some people like to take the joy out of good news for others
They must lead sad lives


----------



## Rafa

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it amazing how some people like to take the joy out of good news for others
> They must lead sad lives


Exactly.

Apparently, it's either climate change or the birth of a baby. There isn't room for both.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it amazing how some people like to take the joy out of good news for others
> They must lead sad lives


I dont have a sad life Bisbow. I have a lovely life with my wonderful family. And I am fighting for my wonderful childrens future.


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Apparently, it's either climate change or the birth of a baby. There isn't room for both.


You really don't get it, do you?


----------



## catz4m8z

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it amazing how some people like to take the joy out of good news for others
> They must lead sad lives


sure, a new baby is a joyful event....for the friends and family of said baby. I dont really have any interest in a strangers procreative habits.....knowing whats going to happen globally in everybodies future is slightly more interesting and concerning I think TBH.


----------



## Bisbow

Surely even the most miserable people can spare a few moments of joy at other peoples happiness otherwise it would be a very unhappy world for 100% of the time

To deny the birth of a healthy baby is, I repeat, very sad whoever the baby belongs too and this country needs something to be happy about


----------



## Rafa

catz4m8z said:


> sure, a new baby is a joyful event....for the friends and family of said baby.


Ordinarily, yes. When it's a Royal Baby, a large percent of the population is very interested.

You only have to see the stats for how many watched the wedding last year to realise that.

You may find climate change more interesting but many don't.


----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> You really don't get it, do you?


Oh, I certainly do.


----------



## catz4m8z

Rafa said:


> You may find climate change more interesting but many don't.


Weirdly enough I do find the future of the entire human race more interesting then what a couple of celebrities get up to! Personally I dont want to be fiddling whilst Rome burns!

The baby story is cute I suppose but its sad that we are so obsessed with celebrities and trivia that it becomes headline news. At best its a nice little happy story to tack on the end of the real news surely?


----------



## mrs phas

Rafa said:


> In a World so full of bad news, and the seemingly endless Brexit fiasco, why should the birth of a baby not be celebrated?


I suppose because
some would say that its another being in an overcrowded world
Some would say the royals are just leeches and should stop scrounging from the tax payer
And
Some would say because he isn't 'pure'

Me? I say 
Yay!!! A happy event for happy parents and a great choice of names
And 
sod the 'somes', because there's, as you say, enough misery in the world


----------



## kimthecat

Bisbow said:


> Surely even the most miserable people can spare a few moments of joy at other peoples happiness otherwise it would be a very unhappy world for 100% of the time


Unfortunately not.


----------



## noushka05

QUOTE="Rafa, post: 1065431673, member: 1326073"]Oh, I certainly do.[/QUOTE]

Evidently you don't Rafa.



Rafa said:


> You may find climate change more interesting but many don't.


There is no greater threat to the futures of ALL our precious children than climate & ecological breakdown yet thanks to the media, masses of people are living in complete ignorance of this fact. If everyone knew about the existential crisis we would have the best chance of averting catastrophe. If we dont act we will leave a terrifying legacy for the younger generation.

@Bisbow @kimthecat @mrs phas

Just to be clear, a baby born into privilege is no more special or precious to me than a baby born into poverty.

And this is the point I was trying, yet clearly failing, to make.

https://www.wcl.org.uk/why-the-royal-birth-and-planetary-health-check-are-everyone’s-business.asp


----------



## noushka05

Students across the globe striking from school again today fighting for their future, fighting to save our living planet. Please join them if you can, there are strikes taking place in all regions of the UK.


----------



## noushka05

We're sleepwalking into catastrophe.










_"I'm losing the ability to communicate the magnitude [of change]," said Mathis. "I'm running out of adjectives to describe the scope of change we're seeing."_
https://mashable.com/article/arctic-melting-records.amp/?europe=true


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/extinction-rebellion-meets-vegan-groups-disrupting-animal-ag


----------



## MilleD

rottiepointerhouse said:


> https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/extinction-rebellion-meets-vegan-groups-disrupting-animal-ag


So what exactly will they be doing? Apart from probably increasing prices for those that can't afford it?

Is this really the way to go about educating about plant based living?


----------



## Elles

Oh dear. Jeremy Hunt wants to use 6bn of taxpayers’ money to prop up agriculture and fishing. Maybe they need to get active fast.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Oh dear. Jeremy Hunt wants to use 6bn of taxpayers' money to prop up agriculture and fishing. Maybe they need to get active fast.


Doesn't agriculture also include crops?


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> Doesn't agriculture also include crops?


It does, but the money is more likely to go to propping up animal agriculture as it's exports of animal produce he's been mentioning, not spuds.

I don't think they'll be successful btw. It's easy enough to give up a day at work or school to try to force governments to do something about climate change, without actually changing anything yourself.

This is an obvious change. You either eat meat and dairy, or you don't. It's a lot bigger than remembering to put your cans in the recycling and take a bag with you to the supermarket. You can't really ask governments to phase out animal produce if you love a Sunday roast, cheese pizza and have milk on your cereal with no intention of stopping. I believe vegans in the groups of demonstrators over climate change were in the minority, so I don't think they'll get the numbers. We'll see, it depends how they go forward with it and what they are actually promoting I expect.

The more of us eat other than meat and dairy, the cheaper it will get though. It's not more expensive being plant based, it can easily be less. Most meat eaters eat plant food too, it's not the most expensive item on their plate. It only gets expensive if we eat freaky ready made food and substitutes. A potato and an apple costs the same whether you're vegan or not.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MilleD said:


> So what exactly will they be doing? Apart from probably increasing prices for those that can't afford it?
> 
> Is this really the way to go about educating about plant based living?


The link says the aim is to halt mass extinction and minimise the risk of social collapse. They aim to highlight in non-violent ways the catastrophic impacts of the animal agriculture and fishing industries in the climate emergency. This was also recommended by 1,000 doctors including 40 professors earlier this week

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-nonviolent-direct-action-over-climate-crisis

More than 1,000 doctors including 40 professors, several eminent public health figures and past presidents of royal colleges are calling for widespread nonviolent civil disobedience in the face of the environmental crisis.

In a letter to the Guardian, the doctors say government policies are "woefully inadequate", and call on politicians and the media to face the facts of the unfolding ecological emergency and take action.

"As caring professionals we cannot countenance current policies which push the world's most vulnerable towards progressive environmental catastrophe," they write.

"We are particularly alarmed by the effects of rising temperatures on health and heed predictions of societal collapse and consequent mass migration. Such collapse risks damage to physical and mental health on an unprecedented scale."


----------



## MilleD

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The link says the aim is to halt mass extinction and minimise the risk of social collapse. They aim to highlight in non-violent ways the catastrophic impacts of the animal agriculture and fishing industries in the climate emergency. This was also recommended by 1,000 doctors including 40 professors earlier this week
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-nonviolent-direct-action-over-climate-crisis
> 
> More than 1,000 doctors including 40 professors, several eminent public health figures and past presidents of royal colleges are calling for widespread nonviolent civil disobedience in the face of the environmental crisis.
> 
> In a letter to the Guardian, the doctors say government policies are "woefully inadequate", and call on politicians and the media to face the facts of the unfolding ecological emergency and take action.
> 
> "As caring professionals we cannot countenance current policies which push the world's most vulnerable towards progressive environmental catastrophe," they write.
> 
> "We are particularly alarmed by the effects of rising temperatures on health and heed predictions of societal collapse and consequent mass migration. Such collapse risks damage to physical and mental health on an unprecedented scale."


Much as I appreciate all the information you give, that doesn't really answer my questions.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MilleD said:


> Much as I appreciate all the information you give, that doesn't really answer my questions.


The link says the groups/organisations met to discuss the actions which are not due to take place until October. I highly doubt they will be announcing in advance exactly what actions they intend to take and where so perhaps we will just have to wait and see.


----------



## kimthecat

According to satellite data , a football pitch size of the Amazon in Brazil is cut down every minute . What can be done to stop this ?


----------



## MilleD

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The link says the groups/organisations met to discuss the actions which are not due to take place until October. I highly doubt they will be announcing in advance exactly what actions they intend to take and where so perhaps we will just have to wait and see.


I just honestly can't see how 'disruption' is going to encourage folks to go plant based.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> According to satellite data , a football pitch size of the Amazon in Brazil is cut down every minute . What can be done to stop this ?


The main thing is education of the indigenous people, especially those who farm the edges of the forest/jungles

I was watching an interview between the forest people of an Amazonian protection area, and, the farmers that surround the area
The forest group wanted to protect their way of life, their sacred trees, freedom etc and the farmers, theirs
The crux of the matter came down to....
The farmers could not (or maybe would not) understand why some of the 300,000+ acres of forest could be given over to them, they have to live, feed their children etc, the forest people and animals, living within it do nothing with it

How does someone, who has no worries about money or feeding their children etc begin to educate those that do, that THEY have to go smaller, and allow the forest to grow bigger, for the protection of the whole planet?
They live a day to day, hand to mouth existence, they don't/can't/won't see the bigger picture, today is important to them, tomorrow isn't guaranteed

Sometimes I look at this kind of reporting and the forward thinking recognition of the damage we are doing to our planet, as a first world privilege. 
We have the funds, the comfort, the fuel and water on tap, even the poorest of our poor are rich in comparison to the existence scratch farmers, who live on the brink of extinction everyday and see lush green veldt and forest just metres away, full of hardwoods, fertile soil, fruit and animals for food etc that could make a huge difference to their daily lives

Education is the root of change, but where does one start, when, from our ivory towers, basically you're telling a group they must start an extinction of their way of living and ultimately themselves, for the good of the whole


----------



## mrs phas

MilleD said:


> I just honestly can't see how 'disruption' is going to encourage folks to go plant based.


Exactly


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MilleD said:


> I just honestly can't see how 'disruption' is going to encourage folks to go plant based.


Social disruption has been used for hundreds of years. I guess many people didn't think women chaining themselves to railings, throwing bricks through windows or disrupting horse racing was going to encourage policy makers to give them the vote. Much has been achieved over the years by social disruption. In this particular case I'm not sure (although obviously I don't know as I wasn't at the meeting) they are aiming to encourage people to go plant based as much as trying to link the issues around animal agriculture and the climate emergency and influence policy makers.


----------



## lullabydream

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I guess many people didn't think women chaining themselves to railings, throwing bricks through windows or disrupting horse racing was going to encourage policy makers to give them the vote.


It didn't...it was women's roles doing men's jobs in the war and lack of people eligible to vote that allowed women's vote.


----------



## mrs phas

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Social disruption has been used for hundreds of years.[snip]... they are aiming to encourage people to go plant.


and this is why there are so may bad jokes about vegans ( not repeating any here, im sure theyve been repeated til most vegans are sick of them)

no ones mind can be changed by outside force. human or nature
they might compromise themselves, if it meant the difference between life or death,
but,
their mind wont be changed, they will just compartmentalise their true self, whilst doing something they abhor, to exist
be that under torture, war, famine, abandonment etc
this we know as it has been documentised over and over

however education ( i seem to be saying this repeatedly) coupled with a calm measured approach WILL win most people over

People get angry and lash out, whether that be physically or mentally, when their day/plans/life is disrupted, in that state of mind they wont/cant learn, as any teacher or parent can tell you, a child in a tantrum or meltdown cannot listen or see reason to anything
however
sit down and show them ( we're back to adults now)the way something can work and how it can go wrong, calmly and quietly, interract with them, listen to their reasoning and counteract it with the actrual truth backed by statistics, scientific papers and other proof of how it affects today and within their lifetimes, (not in 150 years or 1000 years) and you possibly win many of them over. Look at the whole plastic revolution, lots have been shouting about it for decades, one programme narrated in a soft spoken way, accompanied with pictures of its affect on the here and now and BOOF! everyones in on it and single use plastic are the new swear words

as my mum used to say,
you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar


----------



## MilleD

lullabydream said:


> It didn't...it was women's roles doing men's jobs in the war and lack of people eligible to vote that allowed women's vote.


Also, giving women the vote was probably supported by a large proportion of the population that was left.....


----------



## Jesthar

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Social disruption has been used for hundreds of years. I guess many people didn't think women chaining themselves to railings, throwing bricks through windows or disrupting horse racing was going to encourage policy makers to give them the vote


Historically speaking, it didn't. It's why historians are careful to distinguish between Suffragists and Suffragettes. Suffragists achieved a lot through peaceful campaigning and careful political influencing. Pretty much all the suffragettes achieved was a lot of headlines and the retardation of the progress of the cause by alienating previously supportive poitical influencers.

Of course, then WW1 happened, and after that it was only a matter of time as the old anti-suffrage arguments looked ridiculous given the contribution made by female labour to the war effort. Plus a lot of women who had experienced such freedoms did NOT want to return to the limitations of pre-war expectations, which gave progressive politicians a whole new potential voting block to court if they gave women the vote. Still took a while longer to get voting equality, but it was more or less inevitable from then on.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

lullabydream said:


> It didn't...it was women's roles doing men's jobs in the war and lack of people eligible to vote that allowed women's vote.


So the actions of suffragettes played no part in women getting the vote?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

mrs phas said:


> and this is why there are so may bad jokes about vegans ( not repeating any here, im sure theyve been repeated til most vegans are sick of them)
> 
> no ones mind can be changed by outside force. human or nature
> they might compromise themselves, if it meant the difference between life or death,
> but,
> their mind wont be changed, they will just compartmentalise their true self, whilst doing something they abhor, to exist
> be that under torture, war, famine, abandonment etc
> this we know as it has been documentised over and over
> 
> however education ( i seem to be saying this repeatedly) coupled with a calm measured approach WILL win most people over
> 
> People get angry and lash out, whether that be physically or mentally, when their day/plans/life is disrupted, in that state of mind they wont/cant learn, as any teacher or parent can tell you, a child in a tantrum or meltdown cannot listen or see reason to anything
> however
> sit down and show them ( we're back to adults now)the way something can work and how it can go wrong, calmly and quietly, interract with them, listen to their reasoning and counteract it with the actrual truth backed by statistics, scientific papers and other proof of how it affects today and within their lifetimes, (not in 150 years or 1000 years) and you possibly win many of them over. Look at the whole plastic revolution, lots have been shouting about it for decades, one programme narrated in a soft spoken way, accompanied with pictures of its affect on the here and now and BOOF! everyones in on it and single use plastic are the new swear words
> 
> as my mum used to say,
> you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar


Extinction Rebellion isn't just about vegans and vegans certainly are not the only groups within society who make a lot of noise about their rights yet they are the most vilified for it. I've posted that several vegan organisations have had a meeting with the other organisations that make up Extinction Rebellion with the aim of highlighting in non violent ways the impact of animal agriculture and fishing industries on the climate emergency. How they intend to do that has yet to be announced - its says mass disruption of the animal agriculture industries is planned, I would anticipate that means targeting slaughter houses and intensive farming facilities but I could be wrong. I can post plenty of pictures of what happens to animals in farms and slaughter houses - I do and I get a load of grief for it because people would prefer not to see it and not to have to think about it. Direct action such as Cubes of Truth where activists form a cube in busy town centres holding up screens showing what goes on and outreach workers go and chat to people about it results in hundreds of new vegans. Different people respond to different methods. Lots of people don't like the in your face approach but plenty do respond to it.


----------



## Jesthar

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So the actions of suffragettes played no part in women getting the vote?


Not really.

At a best interpretation, they had no overall net effect. At average interpretation, their actions detracted from the cause. At worst, they undermined the efforts of the Suffragists, the moderate campaigning arm (a much bigger movement now largely overlooked as the Suffragettes are more 'interesting'), by alienating infuential people.


----------



## Elles

.


mrs phas said:


> as my mum used to say,
> you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar


"The key point to understand is that there are different traps for different species of flies. There is no one trap that catches all species."

https://www.spalding-labs.com/produ..._to_fly_control_for_horses/162.fly-traps.aspx


----------



## mrs phas

rottiepointerhouse said:


> several, plenty, hundreds, Lots and again, plenty


descriptors are not factual figures, give me them and, proof of them, then i'll believe disruprion, peaceful or otherwise, will change people minds, in a permenant way
After all, no one can prove, one way or another, at the moment, how many of those saying they will change to veganism pr will do x y or z to help against the extiction of the planet, actually go forwrd and carry that out, against how many just agree to get on with their day and get the chugger/activist/rebeller out of the face


----------



## lullabydream

Jesthar said:


> Not really.
> 
> At a best interpretation, they had no overall net effect. At average interpretation, their actions detracted from the cause. At worst, they undermined the efforts of the Suffragists, the moderate campaigning arm (a much bigger movement now largely overlooked as the Suffragettes are more 'interesting'), by alienating infuential people.


Exactly this...

It's one of the biggest history myth that remains in society...

It is such a shame that even when documentaries about suffragettes are made, it's blink and you miss the main point that they did absolutely nothing. You get a bit at the end that usually says after the war women got votes...not that only a select few or the reasoning why.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> .
> 
> "The key point to understand is that there are different traps for different species of flies. There is no one trap that catches all species."
> 
> https://www.spalding-labs.com/produ..._to_fly_control_for_horses/162.fly-traps.aspx


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious



mrs phas said:


> you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar


I used to hear it as "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" but I like your vegan-ized version 

But the sad truth is, you catch more flies with shit.

Why are we catching flies again? 

I'm vegan-ish (I do eat honey and will continue to support our local bee-keepers), I care about the environment, I want to leave the world a better place when I leave it. 
I've no interest in arguing about it. Been beaten down too much I suppose. I'm just tired. I'll do my part and lead by example as best I can. What others do is up to them.


----------



## mrs phas

lullabydream said:


> Exactly this...
> 
> It's one of the biggest history myth that remains in society...
> 
> It is such a shame that even when documentaries about suffragettes are made, it's blink and you miss the main point that they did absolutely nothing. You get a bit at the end that usually says after the war women got votes...not that only a select few or the reasoning why.


because those that shout the loudest get the most publicity, now and historically

the last peaceful protest by extinction rebellion got loads of newstime for virtually bringing London to a standstill and, of course will be remembered, historically, for good or ill
the amount of pollution caused by cars idling in traffic jams, quiet streets becoming congested causing quality of life to be reduced, the amount of work days lost, operations delayed, lives lost due to drs or paramedics or life saving medication or equipment not being available to a person, the amount of airmiles wracked up by emma ' i certainly wont fly coach' thompson etc
got very little or no newstime whatsoever and will be overlooked

another homily comes to mind in this instance (im full of them)
empty pots make most noise

edit for spelling caused by sticky keyboard


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> .
> 
> "The key point to understand is that there are different traps for different species of flies. There is no one trap that catches all species."


which sums up my point exactly


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

mrs phas said:


> descriptors are not factual figures, give me them and, proof of them, then i'll believe disruprion, peaceful or otherwise, will change people minds, in a permenant way
> After all, no one can prove, one way or another, at the moment, how many of those saying they will change to veganism pr will do x y or z to help against the extiction of the planet, actually go forwrd and carry that out, against how many just agree to get on with their day and get the chugger/activist/rebeller out of the face


I'm not sure I can be arsed to spend time getting the figures when clearly you are not going to accept or agree with them anyway. I wonder how you would respond if I talked about transgender activists in the same way and advised you to stop using vinegar instead of sugar.


----------



## Elles

Didn’t the government change its climate directive shortly after the demonstrations?


----------



## Rafa

rottiepointerhouse said:


> because people would prefer not to see it and not to have to think about it.


This isn't necessarily true.

I have done much over the years in dog rescue physically and donate regularly to charities such as the Brooke and WWF.

However, I will block anyone from my FB who posts pictures of animal abuse.

It certainly is not that I don't want to think about it, I do and have more than done my bit in animal welfare, but seeing such pictures upsets me and preys on my mind for a long time.

Nobody has the right to oblige another person to see such pictures.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Rafa said:


> This isn't necessarily true.
> 
> I have done much over the years in dog rescue physically and donate regularly to charities such as the Brooke and WWF.
> 
> However, I will block anyone from my FB who posts pictures of animal abuse.
> 
> It certainly is not that I don't want to think about it, I do and have more than done my bit in animal welfare, but seeing such pictures upsets me and preys on my mind for a long time.
> 
> Nobody has the right to oblige another person to see such pictures.


Good for you.


----------



## Rafa

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Good for you.


And good for you that you, apparently, spend a lot of time finding and watching videos of animals being abused.

It does not mean you care more than me about that issue.

It doesn't make you superior because you choose to look at such images.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Rafa said:


> And good for you that you, apparently, spend a lot of time finding and watching videos of animals being abused.
> 
> It does not mean you care more than me about that issue.
> 
> It doesn't make you superior because you choose to look at such images.


Of course I do, I spend every waking minute trawling the internet looking for videos of animal abuse and patting myself on the back for caring more than anyone else in the whole wide world  Not sure how I manage to run a business, a home, look after dogs, take courses, exercise, meditate and follow my other interests but hey ho perhaps its because I am a superior being :Yawn:Yawn


----------



## Rafa

Yes.

But, a pedestal is a precarious place.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Rafa said:


> Yes.
> 
> But, a pedestal is a precarious place.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious You should know dear Sweety.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Rafa said:


> However, I will block anyone from my FB who posts pictures of animal abuse.
> 
> It certainly is not that I don't want to think about it, I do and have more than done my bit in animal welfare, but seeing such pictures upsets me and preys on my mind for a long time.
> 
> Nobody has the right to oblige another person to see such pictures.


I agree...we all know animal welfare isn't perfect, but I do my best, by buying hopefully animal products from a well treated source.

I don't need to see horrific photos.


----------



## HarlequinCat

I can't help but think that even if everyone gave up meat etc it would still mess up the environment.

Businesses would cut corners or overwork the land. Or in instances like the amazon rip up natural habitats to make room for all the crops. 
Even exploitation of the people who harvest or grow veg, like in Spain. Also the Spanish growers use vast amounts of plastic sheeting and then just disgard it all in the waterways. It's still going on now even though it was reported about years ago
https://m.dw.com/en/spains-sea-of-p...its-produce-migrants-get-exploited/a-47824476

I'd imagine that would be devistating for wildlife too!

Part of the problem is over population. There's no way around that. More and more people putting pressure on the environment. Just going vegetarian won't fix it - a lot of people still by veg from supermarkets w,hich buy stuff from these places in Spain, and have no idea of the conditions they are grown under


----------



## Elles

If we stopped eating meat we could grow grain and plants for us, instead of for the factory farmed animals that eat far more than we do. It’s hard to imagine I think, because there are so many. Unless humans cut back drastically on animal produce, factory farming is the only way forward and we will destroy the planet, apart from our moral obligation. If poor people can’t afford it, then it’s even more important that we who can afford it do, until there’s a complete shift, which there will be. There’s no choice. Be pleased that some people are going plant based, it’s giving everyone more time.

The Eu funded the plastic strawberry farms in Spain and a lot of people made a lot of money. That’s a separate issue, but also quite a valid one. There are alternatives to growing fruit under plastic. It was just seen as cheap and convenient at the time. The devastating effects of the sheets of plastic ending up in the sea weren’t anticipated. The main problem with plastic is that we’ve been so careless with it and used so much more of it than we ever needed to. It is something else that needs addressing of course. 

We can grow enough food to feed everyone, we can’t if we keep using what land we have to raise and feed trillions of livestock.


----------



## mrs phas

mrs phas said:


> Exactly





rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not sure I can be arsed to spend time getting the figures when clearly you are not going to accept or agree with them anyway. I wonder how you would respond if I talked about transgender activists in the same way and advised you to stop using vinegar instead of sugar.


I love how you presume this of me, 
I know this is a passion for you and expect passionate responses from you
I don't, however, expect to be told what I will or will not accept, especially by someone who doesn't know me, however much I respect them (and I do)

As for the transgender activists, I would have thought by now it would have become evident that I do not support ANY activists or extremists.
Once someone starts shouting and waving agendas, I, along with many others, stop listening, 
The vinegar sugar thing? I just don't understand what you mean, but then that's not unusual for me

ANYHOW
Rather than disruption, peaceful or otherwise, I believe this just might help, if not actually be the answer, or might it?

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-climate-crisis-scientists-canopy-emissions


----------



## ForestWomble

mrs phas said:


> I love how you presume this of me,
> I know this is a passion for you and expect passionate responses from you
> I don't, however, expect to be told what I will or will not accept, especially by someone who doesn't know me, however much I respect them (and I do)
> 
> As for the transgender activists, I would have thought by now it would have become evident that I do not support ANY activists or extremists.
> Once someone starts shouting and waving agendas, I, along with many others, stop listening,
> The vinegar sugar thing? I just don't understand what you mean, but then that's not unusual for me
> 
> ANYHOW
> Rather than disruption, peaceful or otherwise, I believe this just might help, if not actually be the answer, or might it?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-climate-crisis-scientists-canopy-emissions


Liked for the link.

I agree that planting trees is the best. I watched a programme the other day that showed how much Carbon dioxide trees absorb and to actuly see it was amazing. I always knew trees were important but this showed it far better then words on a page or screen. 
If everyone who can plants a tree in gardens or pots and if the government / councils all dedicated to plant X amount of trees, it would all help.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Oh dear. Jeremy Hunt wants to use 6bn of taxpayers' money to prop up agriculture and fishing. Maybe they need to get active fast.


They can find a magic money forest for brexit and people who voted for it silent yet are up in arms when labour wants to use money for social good.



kimthecat said:


> According to satellite data , a football pitch size of the Amazon in Brazil is cut down every minute . What can be done to stop this ?





mrs phas said:


> The main thing is education of the indigenous people, especially those who farm the edges of the forest/jungles
> 
> I was watching an interview between the forest people of an Amazonian protection area, and, the farmers that surround the area
> The forest group wanted to protect their way of life, their sacred trees, freedom etc and the farmers, theirs
> The crux of the matter came down to....
> The farmers could not (or maybe would not) understand why some of the 300,000+ acres of forest could be given over to them, they have to live, feed their children etc, the forest people and animals, living within it do nothing with it
> 
> How does someone, who has no worries about money or feeding their children etc begin to educate those that do, that THEY have to go smaller, and allow the forest to grow bigger, for the protection of the whole planet?
> They live a day to day, hand to mouth existence, they don't/can't/won't see the bigger picture, today is important to them, tomorrow isn't guaranteed
> 
> Sometimes I look at this kind of reporting and the forward thinking recognition of the damage we are doing to our planet, as a first world privilege.
> We have the funds, the comfort, the fuel and water on tap, even the poorest of our poor are rich in comparison to the existence scratch farmers, who live on the brink of extinction everyday and see lush green veldt and forest just metres away, full of hardwoods, fertile soil, fruit and animals for food etc that could make a huge difference to their daily lives
> 
> Education is the root of change, but where does one start, when, from our ivory towers, basically you're telling a group they must start an extinction of their way of living and ultimately themselves, for the good of the whole


Brazils new fascist President, Bolsonaro, has given the green light for farmers to murder indigenous people of the Amazon. His aim is to destroy the rain forest.

*Bolsonaro & The Apocalypse: The Most Dangerous Man on Earth | George Monbiot*


----------



## noushka05

mrs phas said:


> however education ( i seem to be saying this repeatedly) coupled with a calm measured approach WILL win most people over


And how do we educate people that we simply don't have time to educate people?

We have to act NOW. Climate/ecological emergency is here - we are in the midst of it @mrs phas .


----------



## noushka05

HarlequinCat said:


> I can't help but think that even if everyone gave up meat etc it would still mess up the environment.
> 
> Businesses would cut corners or overwork the land. Or in instances like the amazon rip up natural habitats to make room for all the crops.
> Even exploitation of the people who harvest or grow veg, like in Spain. Also the Spanish growers use vast amounts of plastic sheeting and then just disgard it all in the waterways. It's still going on now even though it was reported about years ago
> https://m.dw.com/en/spains-sea-of-p...its-produce-migrants-get-exploited/a-47824476
> 
> I'd imagine that would be devistating for wildlife too!
> 
> Part of the problem is over population. There's no way around that. More and more people putting pressure on the environment. Just going vegetarian won't fix it - a lot of people still by veg from supermarkets w,hich buy stuff from these places in Spain, and have no idea of the conditions they are grown under


Most crops are grown to feed livestock. If humans ate crops directly it would free up vast tracts of land for wildlife & massively cut emissions.

Over population is a massive problem but consumption by greedy countries like ours is something we could address which would have a massive impact .


----------



## noushka05

mrs phas said:


> ANYHOW
> Rather than disruption, peaceful or otherwise, I believe this just might help, if not actually be the answer, or might it?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-climate-crisis-scientists-canopy-emissions





ForestWomble said:


> Liked for the link.
> 
> I agree that planting trees is the best. I watched a programme the other day that showed how much Carbon dioxide trees absorb and to actuly see it was amazing. I always knew trees were important but this showed it far better then words on a page or screen.
> If everyone who can plants a tree in gardens or pots and if the government / councils all dedicated to plant X amount of trees, it would all help.


We need to urgently take radical action AND plant trees. Trees alone wont save us.

And activisim to force world leaders to act is probably our only hope.


----------



## noushka05

mrs phas said:


> descriptors are not factual figures, give me them and, proof of them, then i'll believe disruprion, peaceful or otherwise, will change people minds, in a permenant way
> After all, no one can prove, one way or another, at the moment, how many of those saying they will change to veganism pr will do x y or z to help against the extiction of the planet, actually go forwrd and carry that out, against how many just agree to get on with their day and get the chugger/activist/rebeller out of the face









Rafa said:


> And good for you that you, apparently, spend a lot of time finding and watching videos of animals being abused.
> 
> It does not mean you care more than me about that issue.
> 
> It doesn't make you superior because you choose to look at such images.


RPH is putting herself through heartache to raise awareness in the hope we can force change for the better for animals who suffer horrendous lives .


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> RPH is putting herself through heartache to raise awareness in the hope we can force change for the better for animals who suffer horrendous lives .


And that is absolutely her right, should she choose to do so.

However, I do not want or need to look at such images. I am extremely aware.


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> And that is absolutely her right, should she choose to do so.
> 
> However, I do not want or need to look at such images. I am extremely aware.


I also try to avoid such images , and thats why I have huge respect & admiration for people like RPH for bringing these issues to our attention. Without people raising awareness we wouldn't know half & if we're not fully informed we can't make informed decisions or do anything to change the lives of animals for the better. Most farmed animals lead miserable lives & horrible deaths - even in this country, yet a lot of people are unaware of this & RPH is doing the best she can to bring us the truth.

To quote Johnny Depp: (and this isn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, I just think its good advice in general)
_"If you don't like seeing pictures of violence towards animals being posted, you need to help stop the violence, not the pictures._"

.......................................................................


----------



## noushka05

mrs phas said:


> the last peaceful protest by extinction rebellion got loads of newstime for virtually bringing London to a standstill and, of course will be remembered, historically, for good or ill
> the amount of pollution caused by cars idling in traffic jams, quiet streets becoming congested causing quality of life to be reduced, the amount of work days lost, operations delayed, lives lost due to drs or paramedics or life saving medication or equipment not being available to a person,


Do you actually have any evidence lives were lost? I believe ER forewarned emergency services & they didnt block them.

*Pollutionwatch: air better in Extinction Rebellion areas*
London roads were blocked by climate activists, reducing flow of traffic

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...n-extinction-rebellion-areas?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Do you actually have any evidence lives were lost? I believe ER forewarned emergency services & they didnt block them.
> 
> *Pollutionwatch: air better in Extinction Rebellion areas*
> London roads were blocked by climate activists, reducing flow of traffic
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...n-extinction-rebellion-areas?CMP=share_btn_tw


Isn't it a little obvious that where they actually were (and therefore was no traffic) would have lower pollution. It was the chaos caused elsewhere that would be pumping out the pollution...


----------



## MollySmith

We had a great day here, no lives lost. A real party atmosphere
https://www.cambridgeindependent.co...affic-free-day-is-remarkable-success-9075702/


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> Isn't it a little obvious that where they actually were (and therefore was no traffic) would have lower pollution. It was the chaos caused elsewhere that would be pumping out the pollution...


That's a really good point. Though I posted that Cambridge was closed off, there was ample warning (it fell on the weekend of a big free entertainment event and a university open day too) Fortunately many people did heed advice and take public transport but there are other areas of the city where pollution is worse that they could also target and should. Around retail parks that really are built for cars and, according to Friends Of The Earth air monitoring data are on a par with the city air quality, that was was blocked. Though I think it good, there was a rise in cars where I live, some 5 mins away, as cars were diverted. I guess long term people would adapt but it has to include the retail parks otherwise it's going to kill off small shops.


----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> I also try to avoid such images


You don't need to try. Just refuse to watch them. Simple really.

I know animal abuse exists, I know some practise child abuse, I do not want to see pictures of it.

It doesn't mean I don't care, that I won't do what I can to fight that - it means I don't want to see it.

Again, nobody has the right to show these things to those who don't want to see them.

It isn't about who is a 'hero' or an 'activist', it's about personal choice and I don't get why some don't, or can't, respect that.


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> You don't need to try. Just refuse to watch them. Simple really.
> 
> I know animal abuse exists, I know some practise child abuse, I do not want to see pictures of it.
> 
> It doesn't mean I don't care, that I won't do what I can to fight that - it means I don't want to see it.
> 
> Again, nobody has the right to show these things to those who don't want to see them.
> 
> It isn't about who is a 'hero' or an 'activist', it's about personal choice and I don't get why some don't, or can't, respect that.


I don't watch videos but I cant always avoid images Rafa, I donate to charities which seek to end cruelty to animals so I get literature through the post. The vast majority of those I follow on twitter are campaigning to end animal cruelty so its nigh on impossible to avoid all images. And as I want to continue supporting the campaigns, seeing distressing things is something I have to accept. I wont stick my head in the sand altogether.

If it wasnt for people filming/investigating the cruelty we wouldn't get to hear about it & so many would never believe it is happening. These people who expose cruelty are heroes to me, I'm not brave enough to put myself through the heartache they put themselves through. The pictures, stories alone are enough to haunt me. And as for RPH, she warns people if the content of her threads are upsetting. People have a choice to look or not.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Isn't it a little obvious that where they actually were (and therefore was no traffic) would have lower pollution. It was the chaos caused elsewhere that would be pumping out the pollution...


Have you actually read the article Mille?

_There was no sign of deteriorations on the surrounding roads, which might be partially explained by lighter traffic because of the Easter holidays._

Here is the summary of the actual study.
https://www.londonair.org.uk/LondonAir/general/news.aspx?newsId=51foyPVtvieVKszzVKLKlX
In summary, the measurements show some evidence of a reduction in nitrogen dioxide concentrations close to locations where roads are closed. None of the monitoring sites are in locations where traffic is completely blocked and reductions in nitrogen dioxide concentrations would be likely to be much larger where no traffic is able to pass at all as has been seen during other road closures. There is little evidence of any significant increase in nitrogen dioxide concentrations in areas neighbouring those where the protests are taking place. The difference in concentrations well away from the affected areas is inconsistent and reflects possible increases in pollution due to meteorological conditions, offset by the possible decreases in concentrations due to lighter traffic in the school Easter holidays.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

And even if the disruption did cause more pollution @MilleD , what other options do we have left to force the government & millions of people to wake up !?

Climate breakdown is accelerating faster than scientists predicted. We are playing a deadly experiment with our planet, We must ACT RIGHT NOW, We're at the tipping point where runaway climate change becomes irreversible as positive feedback loops, such as methane stored in the permafrost, are released. This could see the collapse of our civilisation - yet people want to carry on with business as usual?.. Its insane

*Scientists amazed as Canadian permafrost thaws 70 years early*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-permafrost-idUSKCN1TJ1XN


----------



## noushka05

I wish everyone should watch The Age of Stupid. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pft7f/storyville-the-age-of-stupid

_*"Why didn't we save ourselves when we had the chance"*_


----------



## Beth78

noushka05 said:


> I wish everyone should watch The Age of Stupid. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pft7f/storyville-the-age-of-stupid
> 
> _*"Why didn't we save ourselves when we had the chance"*_


Yep! Should be shown in schools.


----------



## noushka05

Beth78 said:


> Yep! Should be shown in schools.


It certainly should. I especially wish there was someway to relay the urgency to older generations who actually have a vote so can could use it to make a difference. Extinction Rebellion,/ the school strikers seem to the only hope we have left now.


----------



## noushka05

David Attenborough speaking to the Commons Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee yesterday.,

Painting a vivid picture for MPs of coral reefs turned "stark white" by warming waters, *Sir David warned that the world faced a "serious collapse" caused by climate change over the next 20-30 years.*

*This could make parts of Africa uninhabitable, he said, causing mass migration.*

"Large parts of Africa will become even less inhabitable than they are now," he told the committee.

*He criticised those governments where voices sceptical about climate science were still clearly heard*. And he hoped the electorate in the US and Australia particularly would remember this come election time.

Sir David told MPs that everyone would have to play their part in the battle against climate change, and this would involve some tough decisions. He criticised airfares as too cheap, and said that these should rise to discourage flying.

The public mood was changing, he said.* The young, he said, gave him hope that the world would change before irreversible climate change destroyed our world.*

Despite the stark nature of his message, Sir David's passion and status seemed to charm the MPs on the committee. The chair described it as the "most inspiring session" that they've held.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48928372


----------



## Beth78

What's so sad is the people who have made the least impact are receiving the most impact in regards to climate change.
And that people have been protesting for decades about the ugency have just been ignored.
As Greta said "our house is on fire !)


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Beth78 said:


> What's so sad is the people who have made the least impact are receiving the most impact in regards to climate change.
> And that people have been protesting for decades about the ugency have just been ignored.
> As Greta said "our house is on fire !)


Has Greta Thunberg produced any scientific papers to back up her claim that "our house is on fire"?

I know she claims to be able to "see CO2" but I can't find any papers or research she has done?


----------



## Elles

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/attenborough-effect-single-use-plastic

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-police-seek-youths-behind-homophobic-attack

Let's rely on the young. Leave it to them, they're our only hope. Let's not eh?


----------



## MilleD

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Has Greta Thunberg produced any scientific papers to back up her claim that "our house is on fire"?
> 
> I know she claims to be able to "see CO2" but I can't find any papers or research she has done?


She can see CO2??


----------



## Beth78

MilleD said:


> She can see CO2??


Ha! Yes apparently, coming out of chimneys and landfills.
It more likely heat shimmer she can see.


----------



## Beth78

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Has Greta Thunberg produced any scientific papers to back up her claim that "our house is on fire"?
> 
> I know she claims to be able to "see CO2" but I can't find any papers or research she has done?


As far as I know she's not a scientist but she understands the latest scientific research and facts.
She's a very brave girl imo.


----------



## Cleo38

MilleD said:


> She can see CO2??


----------



## samuelsmiles3

MilleD said:


> She can see CO2??


Yes, according to her mother, Thunberg can actually "see" CO2.

Malena wrote: (In her new book) _"She can see carbon dioxide with the naked eye. She sees how it flows out of chimneys and turns the atmosphere into a rubbish tip."_

I haven't seen this claim proved in any scientific paper by Greta Thunberg, though. It just surprises me that this 16 year old young girl is now affecting public policy.


----------



## noushka05

Beth78 said:


> What's so sad is the people who have made the least impact are receiving the most impact in regards to climate change.
> And that people have been protesting for decades about the ugency have just been ignored.
> As Greta said "our house is on fire !)


. I feel so sorry for the younger generation. People have been protesting & campaigning for action on climate change for decades but not enough people took it seriously. Had masses of the older generation used their votes wisely, had they taken to the streets like the youngsters are doing we would never have been in the terrible crisis we're in today. And it makes me really annoyed to see so many of the older people, the generations which have done the most damage to this planet, deride the young activists who have been forced to fight for their futures because they have been left with no other option thanks to the apathy of older generations like mine. Many of the older generation still seem incapable of grasping the urgency of the situation, the urgency for radical action and thats inspite of the mountain range of evidence coming in on an almost daily basis that we're in the midst of climate/ecological emergency. They have to be in complete denial because 'our house *is* on fire'. As Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says; Climate delayers are almost as bad climate deniers. Irreversible, catastrophic climate breakdown will still happen - just not as fast.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Has Greta Thunberg produced any scientific papers to back up her claim that "our house is on fire"?
> 
> I know she claims to be able to "see CO2" but I can't find any papers or research she has done?


Greta asks people to listen to the climate scientists, she has never claimed to be an expert. She is relaying their message into her own words & the scientists have endorsed her message!

Climate deniers all over social media are attacking this brave young girl with your latest nonsense. They are truly reprehensible.



MilleD said:


> She can see CO2??


Not literally, no, its just Samuel trying to discredit people who accept climate science as per.




















Elles said:


> https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/attenborough-effect-single-use-plastic
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-police-seek-youths-behind-homophobic-attack
> 
> Let's rely on the young. Leave it to them, they're our only hope. Let's not eh?


The first link actually says _youngsters are more considerate about sustainable materials than older generations._

A couple of young homophobic thugs does not represent the youth of today Elles . You can thank brexit for the rise in hate crimes. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...p_ref=uk-homepage&ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001


----------



## samuelsmiles3

noushka05 said:


> . I feel so sorry for the younger generation. People have been protesting & campaigning for action on climate change for decades but not enough people took it seriously. Had masses of the older generation used their votes wisely, had they taken to the streets like the youngsters are doing we would never have been in the terrible crisis we're in today. And it makes me really annoyed to see so many of the older people, the generations which have done the most damage to this planet, deride the young activists who have been forced to fight for their futures because they have been left with no other option thanks to the apathy of older generations like mine. Many of the older generation still seem incapable of grasping the urgency of the situation, the urgency for radical action and thats inspite of the mountain range of evidence coming in on an almost daily basis that we're in the midst of climate/ecological emergency. They have to be in complete denial because 'our house *is* on fire'. As Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says; Climate delayers are almost as bad climate deniers. Irreversible, catastrophic climate breakdown will still happen - just not as fast.
> 
> Greta asks people to listen to the climate scientists, she has never claimed to be an expert. She is relaying their message into her own words & the scientists have endorsed her message!
> 
> Climate deniers all over social media are attacking this brave young girl with your latest nonsense. They are truly reprehensible.
> 
> Not literally, no, its just Samuel trying to discredit people who accept climate science as per.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first link actually says _youngsters are more considerate about sustainable materials than older generations._
> 
> A couple of young homophobic thugs does not represent the youth of today Elles . You can thank brexit for the rise in hate crimes. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...p_ref=uk-homepage&ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001


Actually, I was wrong in saying that Thunberg claimed she could "see CO2."

It was, in fact, her handlers who made this claim. Now that _is_ reprehensible.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Not literally, no, its just Samuel trying to discredit people who accept climate science as per.


To be fair, if that's that guys translation, then yes, the mother clearly states that she can see the CO2 with the naked eye. How else it that supposed to be read?? He's really not helped the case he is arguing there.


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Actually, I was wrong in saying that Thunberg claimed she could "see CO2."
> 
> It was, in fact, her handlers who made this claim. Now that _is_ reprehensible.


*sigh* Or, it could be someone who speaks English as a second language making a bit of a hash of translating. English is hard enough to master for native speakers, after all!

And I'm betting that whoever said it speaks better English than I do Finnish...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Jesthar said:


> *sigh* Or, it could be someone who speaks English as a second language making a bit of a hash of translating. English is hard enough to master for native speakers, after all!
> 
> And I'm betting that whoever said it speaks better English than I do Finnish...


This is the literal translation I have of Greta Thunberg's mother speaking of her daughter's ability to actually see CO2.

Malena Ernman in the book. _*"She can see carbon dioxide with the naked eye*. She sees how it flows out of chimneys and changes the atmosphere in a landfill."_

Also, the fact that Thunberg calls CO2 "pollution" concerns me that she doesn't even understand what CO2 is. Let alone "see" the stuff.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> *sigh* Or, it could be someone who speaks English as a second language making a bit of a hash of translating. English is hard enough to master for native speakers, after all!
> 
> And I'm betting that whoever said it speaks better English than I do Finnish...


Or Swedish?


----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> feel so sorry for the younger generation. People have been protesting & campaigning for action on climate change for decades but not enough people took it seriously. Had masses of the older generation used their votes wisely, had they taken to the streets like the youngsters are doing we would never have been in the terrible crisis we're in today. And it makes me really annoyed to see so many of the older people, the generations which have done the most damage to this planet, deride the young activists who have been forced to fight for their futures because they have been left with no other option thanks to the apathy of older generations like mine. Many of the older generation still seem incapable of grasping the urgency of the situation, the urgency for radical action and thats inspite of the mountain range of evidence coming in on an almost daily basis that we're in the midst of climate/ecological emergency. They have to be in complete denial because 'our house *is* on fire'. As Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says; Climate delayers are almost as bad climate deniers. Irreversible, catastrophic climate breakdown will still happen - just not as fast.


Really?

I grew up in the 1950s/60s. We were a fairly typical family of that time.

We did not have a car, (very few families did). We walked everywhere or went on the bus. Kids walked to School. There were no cars or gas guzzling 4 x 4s outside the school back then.

Carrier bags were made of paper. There were no Supermarkets so most Housewives shopped day to day and used their own shopping bag which saw years of use. If you bought fruit and veg., it was given to you loose and went straight into your bag. There was little food waste in those days.

Very few people took holidays abroad, so plane travel was rare.

There were no cheap, 'throw away' clothes then, that were worn twice and discarded. Clothes were passed down from child to child.

The majority of families did not own a fridge, washing machine and certainly not a dryer.

TV was only on for a few hours a day.

Kids didn't sit indoors, playing on various devices, they played out.

Water came from the tap, not plastic bottles. Milk came in glass bottles, which were washed and returned. Pop and beer came in glass bottles, on which a deposit was charged, to ensure they were returned, to be used again.

The older generation are not to blame for the current state of affairs.


----------



## Beth78

samuelsmiles3 said:


> This is the literal translation I have of Greta Thunberg's mother speaking of her daughter's ability to actually see CO2.
> 
> Malena Ernman in the book. _*"She can see carbon dioxide with the naked eye*. She sees how it flows out of chimneys and changes the atmosphere in a landfill."_
> 
> Also, the fact that Thunberg calls CO2 "pollution" concerns me that she doesn't even understand what CO2 is. Let alone "see" the stuff.


Co2 is a pollutant when it is emitted by burning fossil fuels.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Beth78 said:


> Co2 is a pollutant when it is emitted by burning fossil fuels.


And it's a 'pollutant' if it comes out of a volcano? Or our breath? Or in packets bought to increase growth in greenhouses?


----------



## Beth78

samuelsmiles3 said:


> And it's a 'pollutant' if it comes out of a volcano? Or our breath? Or in packets bought to increase growth in greenhouses?


I don't know, is it ?


----------



## Beth78

I don't think any one generation can be blamed. But as we know the facts and how humans are impacting on the environment. We should all do our best to make good decisions to save what we have.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Actually, I was wrong in saying that Thunberg claimed she could "see CO2."
> 
> It was, in fact, her handlers who made this claim. Now that _is_ reprehensible.


Her handlers? Unbelievable.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> This is the literal translation I have of Greta Thunberg's mother speaking of her daughter's ability to actually see CO2.
> 
> Malena Ernman in the book. _*"She can see carbon dioxide with the naked eye*. She sees how it flows out of chimneys and changes the atmosphere in a landfill."_
> 
> Also, the fact that Thunberg calls CO2 "pollution" concerns me that she doesn't even understand what CO2 is. Let alone "see" the stuff.


You've completely taken it out of context. It was clearly meant as a metaphor Do you take everything literally? When someone says they're the black sheep of the family do you expect them to actually be a black sheep?

( Overlooked your reply @MilleD - so see above  )



Rafa said:


> Really?
> 
> I grew up in the 1950s/60s. We were a fairly typical family of that time.
> 
> We did not have a car, (very few families did). We walked everywhere or went on the bus. Kids walked to School. There were no cars or gas guzzling 4 x 4s outside the school back then.
> 
> Carrier bags were made of paper. There were no Supermarkets so most Housewives shopped day to day and used their own shopping bag which saw years of use. If you bought fruit and veg., it was given to you loose and went straight into your bag. There was little food waste in those days.
> 
> Very few people took holidays abroad, so plane travel was rare.
> 
> There were no cheap, 'throw away' clothes then, that were worn twice and discarded. Clothes were passed down from child to child.
> 
> The majority of families did not own a fridge, washing machine and certainly not a dryer.
> 
> TV was only on for a few hours a day.
> 
> Kids didn't sit indoors, playing on various devices, they played out.
> 
> Water came from the tap, not plastic bottles. Milk came in glass bottles, which were washed and returned. Pop and beer came in glass bottles, on which a deposit was charged, to ensure they were returned, to be used again.
> 
> The older generation are not to blame for the current state of affairs.


And then in the late 70s early 80s neoliberailsm came to town...

Unlike the students, the older generation have been able to vote. And just look at the state of our leaders? They were voted into power by the older generations despite them having an ideology of corporate profit before the welfare of our living planet. Our governments are in the pocket of vested interests. Our economic/political system is destroying the planet and the kids bare no responsibility for being born into this unsustainable throw away society we live in.

Shouldnt we all be supporting the students in their fight for survival?

There is to be a general strike for the climate in September. I wish we could all join forces before its too late. https://twitter.com/EarthStrikeUK



samuelsmiles3 said:


> And it's a 'pollutant' if it comes out of a volcano? Or our breath? Or in packets bought to increase growth in greenhouses?


CO2 occurs naturally but by burning fossil fuels etc we have upset the natural balance. We know Human activity is driving climate change - well, at least those of us who aren't in denial do anyway.


----------



## Rafa

noushka05 said:


> Unlike the students, the older generation have been able to vote. And just look at the state of our leaders? They were voted into power by the older generations


As you know, any leader of a party is voted into the position by Party Members. The rest of us have no say in it.

As for General Elections, do you not believe the older generations had the same dilemma as exists now, that is, who do you vote for when one Party is equally corrupt and self serving as the other?

Every generation has played a part in climate change, not just the older generation, as you seem to believe.


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> I wish we could all join forces before its too late.


So why all this blaming older generations? Surely this is affecting us all & blaming each other is just another way of creating divisions. Older generations made so many changes to enable us to live better lives that we should be recognising this not slagging them off. As a woman I am thankful for the generations of women before me who fought for equality & against patriarchal constraints so I have the freedoms that I have today.

The young might be more aware but are they actively making better choices? Are they changing their lifestyles or are they just supporting causes without actually doing much. Why are stores like Primark who specialise in disposal fashion for the young making huge profits again (& from what I have read about the fashion industry this has a huge impact on our planet)? Exactly what are younger people not doing to 'save the planet'? What are they doing differently?

Granted I don't know many young people but all the eco groups I am part of locally are full of middle aged people like myself who are trying to do things differently & swap ideas , etc… which tbh is exactly how I thought it would be as most young people are probably just out enjoying themselves as they should be!


----------



## Rafa

Cleo38 said:


> The young might be more aware but are they actively making better choices? Are they changing their lifestyles or are they just supporting causes without actually doing much. Why are stores like Primark who specialise in disposal fashion for the young making huge profits again (& from what I have read about the fashion industry this has a huge impact on our planet)? Exactly what are younger people not doing to 'save the planet'? What are they doing differently?


This, exactly.

Talk is cheap. What actions are the younger generations taking that we aren't?


----------



## Beth78

Hopefully we are all making good choices and enjoying life at the same time.


----------



## Rafa

Beth78 said:


> Hopefully we are all making good choices and enjoying life at the same time.


I agree.

Pinning the blame squarely on the 'older generation', therefore, is very unfair.


----------



## Beth78

Rafa said:


> I agree.
> 
> Pinning the blame squarely on the 'older generation', therefore, is very unfair.


Yes we are all to blame, young and old.


----------



## Beth78

It's about what we do next that matters now, even small changes multiplied make a big impact.


----------



## stuaz

MilleD said:


> She can see CO2??


I can see CO2.....









I inject it into my Aquariums.

I'm going to start my own climate movement! Now all i need is a twitter account....


----------



## ForestWomble

stuaz said:


> I can see CO2.....
> 
> View attachment 409797
> 
> 
> I inject it into my Aquariums.
> 
> I'm going to start my own climate movement! Now all i need is a twitter account....


I'm intruiged, why do you inject CO2 into the aquariums?


----------



## stuaz

ForestWomble said:


> I'm intruiged, why do you inject CO2 into the aquariums?


For the plants. Aquatic plants photosynthesis like non-aquatic plants, because an aquarium is essentially a closed ecosystem, there is a limited amount of CO2 in the water, so if you inject CO2 into the water it will allow the plants to grow at amazing rates, and then are only limited by light and nutrients (which you can control also, e.g add brighter lights, put fertilisers in the water or substrate).

Healthy plants, means healthy water, which means happy fish and shrimp!


----------



## ForestWomble

stuaz said:


> For the plants. Aquatic plants photosynthesis like non-aquatic plants, because an aquarium is essentially a closed ecosystem, there is a limited amount of CO2 in the water, so if you inject CO2 into the water it will allow the plants to grow at amazing rates, and then are only limited by light and nutrients (which you can control also, e.g add brighter lights, put fertilisers in the water or substrate).
> 
> Healthy plants, means healthy water, which means happy fish and shrimp!
> 
> View attachment 409799
> 
> 
> View attachment 409800


Thank you  That is really interesting.

Wow, your tank look amazing, can i see a pair of odessa barbs in the front left?

When I had a tank I could never keep plants alive, think I know why now.


----------



## noushka05

Rafa said:


> As you know, any leader of a party is voted into the position by Party Members. The rest of us have no say in it.


Then knowing the ideology of political parties is crucial when voting for environmental & climate justice



Rafa said:


> As for General Elections, do you not believe the older generations had the same dilemma as exists now, that is, who do you vote for when one Party is equally corrupt and self serving as the other?


Political parties are not as equally corrupt as one another, some are clearly worse than others - far worse!. You can see who bankrolls the party to see whos interests they really work in. I think its really important to check the voting history of MPs, this information is in the public domain. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mps/ .

The vast majority of tory party MPs for example, consistently vote AGAINST measures to prevent climate change.( UKIP/BP are crammed with climate change deniers. )

Once you know their ideology, their voting record, its then clear which mps vote in the best the interests of the natural world and which vote in the interests of big business & the moneyed elite. That said, I dont think even the progressive *main* parties (here & elsewhere) policies on climate change & ecological collapse are radical enough. Though it would bide us more time.



Rafa said:


> Every generation has played a part in climate change, not just the older generation, as you seem to believe.


I dont understand why people are taking things so personally tbh. I'm older & I'm not. I back the youngsters 100%!

. I dont see how you can think children can share responsibility when they have no vote - no voice other than striking from school. By the time many of them are old enough to vote, if we dont act, it could be too late for them. No one can predict exactly when we will go over the tipping point of no return for catastrophic runaway climate breakdown. Every degree of warming counts so we must act now, but many of the older generation still seem to be in denial time is of the essence. 


Cleo38 said:


> So why all this blaming older generations? Surely this is affecting us all & blaming each other is just another way of creating divisions. Older generations made so many changes to enable us to live better lives that we should be recognising this not slagging them off. As a woman I am thankful for the generations of women before me who fought for equality & against patriarchal constraints so I have the freedoms that I have today.
> 
> The young might be more aware but are they actively making better choices? Are they changing their lifestyles or are they just supporting causes without actually doing much. Why are stores like Primark who specialise in disposal fashion for the young making huge profits again (& from what I have read about the fashion industry this has a huge impact on our planet)? Exactly what are younger people not doing to 'save the planet'? What are they doing differently?
> 
> Granted I don't know many young people but all the eco groups I am part of locally are full of middle aged people like myself who are trying to do things different & swap ideas … which tbh is exactly how I thought it would be as most young people are probably just out enjoying themselves as they should be!


I'm of the older generation too - but I dont take it personally that the young are angry at our inaction to the most serious threat facing our civilisation (Here is David Attenborough view -https://www.theguardian.com/environ...school-climate-strikes-outrage-greta-thunberg !). But I accept blaming people for the past isnt helpful but neither is criticising the young strikers ( or Extinction Rebellion)  We are in climate/ecological emergency *now. *The apathy of the older generation worries me more than anything, because without masses of people, I dont see how we can force change. Many just want to carry on with business as usual as our living planet collapses around us.

Climate breakdown, biodiversity loss, plastic pollution - Primark, are all due to our current economic model Cleo. The goal of capitalism is to maximise consumption to maximise profit, profit comes above all else. And now we're seeing the extent of that ideology. Its is quite literally killing the living planet, the planet is getting hotter, ecosystems are collapsing - our civilisations face collapse. Capitalism its unsustainable on in a finite system. .

Beside the young striking, I have no idea what they are doing as individuals. But they seem to get that without radical action from governments, whatever they do as individuals simply wont be enough.

Of course that doesnt mean we shouldn't all do our bit (I've calculated my own environmental footprint below, & the link if others wish to find out theirs), but personal choices can't save the planet, we have to change our entire unsustainable economic model.

We have to force governments to crack down on corporations. In 2017 the Carbons Major report found that just 100 companies produce 71% of the worlds greenhouse gas emissions This is what we should be focusing on. https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

https://theconversation.com/retire-...power-plants-to-limit-warming-to-1-5-c-119607
https://footprint.wwf.org.uk/#/











Rafa said:


> This, exactly.
> 
> Talk is cheap. What actions are the younger generations taking that we aren't?


They are taking to the streets and demanding climate action NOW. .


----------



## Beth78

Where can I do the carbon footprint test ?
Would like to know.


----------



## noushka05

Beth78 said:


> Where can I do the carbon footprint test ?
> Would like to know.


Here is the link Beth  x https://footprint.wwf.org.uk/#/


----------



## MilleD

Beth78 said:


> Where can I do the carbon footprint test ?
> Would like to know.


There's a link in Noush's post


----------



## Beth78

MilleD said:


> There's a link in Noush's post


The link was a news article


----------



## Beth78

noushka05 said:


> Here is the link Beth  x https://footprint.wwf.org.uk/#/


Ooh thanks.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Here is the link Beth  x https://footprint.wwf.org.uk/#/


Cross posted...


----------



## MilleD

Beth78 said:


> The link was a news article


It was under that link.


----------



## Beth78

Wow! Bigger than I thought


----------



## noushka05

Beth78 said:


> Wow! Bigger than I thought
> View attachment 409821


Smaller than mine:Bag Compared to the UK average its really good Beth, our country is one of the big consumers.


----------



## Jesthar

I did try the carbon footprint tool, and I have to say I'm not that impressed with it.

Some of the questions are downright weird and have no context or information on why they are there (like the phone/TV contract one), and there are a lot where the options don't give an overall long term context (like the 'have you bought X in the last year'- I may well have to buy a new laptop this year, for example, but my current one is about seven years old! I bought a new TV a couple of years ago, but it's a small one and I had my previous one 15 years and kept it till it broke.). I'm glad my probably-once-in-a-lifetime trip to Florida was too long ago to count!

Worst of all is the summary - no tailored information based on your choices, and critically no breakdown I could find of how each of your responses contributes to the overall footprint. Just a few generic 'tips', most of which are totally irrelevant for me or things I already do/have done. For example, I ticked that I use low energy lightbulbs, and the first tip in 'home'? "Switch to low energy lightbulbs!" It's certainly not going to inform or inspire your average person to make significant changes, or even easy changes...

And yes, I know it's supposed to be a general estimate and will never be massively accurate, but such basic shortcomings (especially the totally wasted opportunity for tailored education) leave it pretty much worthless, unfortunately.


----------



## Beth78

Jesthar said:


> I did try the carbon footprint tool, and I have to say I'm not that impressed with it.
> 
> Some of the questions are downright weird and have no context or information on why they are there (like the phone/TV contract one), and there are a lot where the options don't give an overall long term context (like the 'have you bought X in the last year'- I may well have to buy a new laptop this year, for example, but my current one is about seven years old! I bought a new TV a couple of years ago, but it's a small one and I had my previous one 15 years and kept it till it broke.). I'm glad my probably-once-in-a-lifetime trip to Florida was too long ago to count!
> 
> Worst of all is the summary - no tailored information based on your choices, and critically no breakdown I could find of how each of your responses contributes to the overall footprint. Just a few generic 'tips', most of which are totally irrelevant for me or things I already do/have done. For example, I ticked that I use low energy lightbulbs, and the first tip in 'home'? "Switch to low energy lightbulbs!" It's certainly not going to inform or inspire your average person to make significant changes, or even easy changes...
> 
> And yes, I know it's supposed to be a general estimate and will never be massively accurate, but such basic shortcomings (especially the totally wasted opportunity for tailored education) leave it pretty much worthless, unfortunately.


Yes it was abit vague, made me think about what I could be doing better though though.
Like buying clothing from charity shops, cheaper too


----------



## ForestWomble

I did the calculator thing and I too thought it was far to vague, I did it twice, first time I said I use a car for travel (perfectly true when I do travel but as a passenger in my dads car and less than once a month) - because of the car it gave me a footprint of 80%. So tried it saying I never travel by car and it put me down to 75%
Considering all the other answers I gave I was amazed it's apparently so high, if it was more detailed I'd probably find the results too be far lower.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Very vague. It doesn't take into account frequency of use or anything. I got 80% and it didn't say much what you can do to reduce it really



Beth78 said:


> Yes it was abit vague, made me think about what I could be doing better though though.
> Like buying clothing from charity shops, cheaper too


I get a lot of my clothes from charity shops or car boots. Although it wasnt a concious effort for the climate - Its just cheaper and quite a variety! I've always found clothes shops are so expensive.


----------



## Jesthar

HarlequinCat said:


> I get a lot of my clothes from charity shops or car boots. Although it wasnt a concious effort for the climate - Its just cheaper and quite a variety! I've always found clothes shops are so expensive.


I have picked up DVDs and homewares in charity shops, but there aren't that many charity shops near me. I'm also tricky to fit for clothes, as I have a classic hourglass figure that not many modern clothes car cut to cope with!  Generally, unless it's something generic, if I can't try it on I won't buy it.

That said, I rarely buy clothes, and the ones I do buy I keep for years until they are too worn out to wear any more. I've got some things I've had for decades that are still going strong, even at least one skirt that used to be my mothers! Shoes too, if I buy one pair of boots and one pair of sandals a year, that's about it. One of the biggest bugbears of my fashion life is it being so hard to get boots re-soled and re-heeled these days, I have some gorgeous pairs of boots where the uppers are still in great condition but the heel and/or sole has worn out and they can't be replaced...


----------



## HarlequinCat

Jesthar said:


> I have picked up DVDs and homewares in charity shops, but there aren't that many charity shops near me. I'm also tricky to fit for clothes, as I have a classic hourglass figure that not many modern clothes car cut to cope with!  Generally, unless it's something generic, if I can't try it on I won't buy it.
> 
> That said, I rarely buy clothes, and the ones I do buy I keep for years until they are too worn out to wear any more. I've got some things I've had for decades that are still going strong, even at least one skirt that used to be my mothers! Shoes too, if I buy one pair of boots and one pair of sandals a year, that's about it. One of the biggest bugbears of my fashion life is it being so hard to get boots re-soled and re-heeled these days, I have some gorgeous pairs of boots where the uppers are still in great condition but the heel and/or sole has worn out and they can't be replaced...


That's my problem with current clothes, hard to get jeans I'm happy with - they're all high waisted or "mom" jeans or skinny. I'm lucky there's a lot of charity shops near by. Can also find clothes with tags still on.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> I did try the carbon footprint tool, and I have to say I'm not that impressed with it.
> 
> Some of the questions are downright weird and have no context or information on why they are there (like the phone/TV contract one), and there are a lot where the options don't give an overall long term context (like the 'have you bought X in the last year'- I may well have to buy a new laptop this year, for example, but my current one is about seven years old! I bought a new TV a couple of years ago, but it's a small one and I had my previous one 15 years and kept it till it broke.). I'm glad my probably-once-in-a-lifetime trip to Florida was too long ago to count!
> 
> Worst of all is the summary - no tailored information based on your choices, and critically no breakdown I could find of how each of your responses contributes to the overall footprint. Just a few generic 'tips', most of which are totally irrelevant for me or things I already do/have done. For example, I ticked that I use low energy lightbulbs, and the first tip in 'home'? "Switch to low energy lightbulbs!" It's certainly not going to inform or inspire your average person to make significant changes, or even easy changes...
> 
> And yes, I know it's supposed to be a general estimate and will never be massively accurate, but such basic shortcomings (especially the totally wasted opportunity for tailored education) leave it pretty much worthless, unfortunately.


It was quite restrictive on travel too. I have both a car and a motorcycle, but I walk to work and there was no option for that - it was ALL walking for all journeys or a motor vehicle. No option for I only use the car if I can't walk.


----------



## Jesthar

HarlequinCat said:


> That's my problem with current clothes, hard to get jeans I'm happy with - they're all high waisted or "mom" jeans or skinny. I'm lucky there's a lot of charity shops near by. Can also find clothes with tags still on.


I got lucky on the jeans front, when I went to Orlando a couple of years ago we went to one of those outlet places and I got a couple of pairs from the Levi shop which fit perfectly! Under $100 for the pair, too.  Not that that's a very eco-friendly option normally, but as I was already over there...


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> It was quite restrictive on travel too. I have both a car and a motorcycle, but I walk to work and there was no option for that - it was ALL walking for all journeys or a motor vehicle. No option for I only use the car if I can't walk.


Nor do they have an option for "WHAT public transport..." 

f I wanted to get a bus to work it would take me about an hour and a half (as opposed to the 10-20 minutes in the car on a decent run, depending on traffic). I'd also have to go all the way in to the centre of town (via a long, winding route through the main drul lord estate) and then either get a bus back out again or walk half an hour back to my office, as though my office is on the main road in to town AND opposite a small retail park, NO buses stop there!

It used to take less time to do the 15 miles to Uni by bus and train than it would to do the four miles to the office...


----------



## noushka05

Have a look at this carbon footprint calculator, it looks more in depth  - https://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> Have a look at this carbon footprint calculator, it looks more in depth  - https://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx


Glory be! That one goes way too far the other way, I'd have to dig out half a ton of paperwork to fill THAT in... I can't even figure out which model my car is from the lists they provide...

A few glaring omissions for something so detailed, too - water consumption, for one, and pets, only three flights maximum. No lifestyle or eco products questions either.

And still no interactive advice on why some questions are asked and changes you could make. More interested in getting money off you for 'offsetting' than helping you understand and reduce...


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Glory be! That one goes way too far the other way, I'd have to dig out half a ton of paperwork to fill THAT in... I can't even figure out which model my car is from the lists they provide...
> 
> A few glaring omissions for something so detailed, too - water consumption, for one, and pets, only three flights maximum. No lifestyle or eco products questions either.
> 
> And still no interactive advice on why some questions are asked and changes you could make. More interested in getting money off you for 'offsetting' than helping you understand and reduce...


Seems like everything is about money...


----------



## stuaz

ForestWomble said:


> Thank you  That is really interesting.
> 
> Wow, your tank look amazing, can i see a pair of odessa barbs in the front left?
> 
> When I had a tank I could never keep plants alive, think I know why now.


A pair of Bolivian Rams


----------



## Colette

I did a really basic one a couple of weeks ago and scored pretty badly. Considering I don't have kids, don't eat meat, haven't flown in years, and am actively trying to live more sustainably I thought it was a bit of a cheek to be honest.


----------



## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> Climate breakdown, biodiversity loss, plastic pollution - Primark, are all due to our current economic model Cleo. *The goal of capitalism is to maximise consumption to maximise profit, profit comes above all else. And now we're seeing the extent of that ideology.* Its is quite literally killing the living planet, the planet is getting hotter, ecosystems are collapsing - our civilisations face collapse. Capitalism its unsustainable on in a finite system. .
> 
> .


I don't disagree with you at all but unfortunately I honestly can't see this changing though. People love to shop, they love to buy the latest stuff, they love technology, they love new, shiny things, the latest fashions,they love flying off to places abroad for holidays in the sunshine …. regardless of the impact to the environment.

I don't buy much at all, mainly because I don't have spare £££'s but also because I don't need 'stuff', I am not interested in new, shiny things at all & don't go abroad as I won't leave my dogs so am quite low on the consumerism scale (if one exists!). But if everyone was like me then businesses would fail, people would be out of work & the economy would nose dive & everyone would be affected…. so what then? What's the answer?

(BTW I honestly don't expect you to solve the world's problems @noushka05 but it all seems so f*cked that I don't see a way back)


----------



## Boxer123

Colette said:


> I did a really basic one a couple of weeks ago and scored pretty badly. Considering I don't have kids, don't eat meat, haven't flown in years, and am actively trying to live more sustainably I thought it was a bit of a cheek to be honest.


I'm the same my score wasn't good either! I do drive a lot for work.


----------



## noushka05

Cleo38 said:


> I don't disagree with you at all but unfortunately I honestly can't see this changing though. People love to shop, they love to buy the latest stuff, they love technology, they love new, shiny things, the latest fashions,they love flying off to places abroad for holidays in the sunshine …. regardless of the impact to the environment.


In the last great crisis people were asked, not to lay down their shiny things or their holidays abroad - but their lives. Unlike the threat of Hitler however, the public have never really been told the terrifying reality of this existential crisis we face today . If they _really_ knew what the likely impacts of climate breakdown & ecosystem collapse were, they would understand the magnitude of the emergency, and surely they would want action? Demand action? Or maybe our society really is that selfish now?

Its true the climate denial machine has done a superb job in muddying the waters on climate change, and so as our state broadcaster which until very recently gave an equal platform to climate change deniers - for the sake of 'balance!'. With so many people ignorant of the facts, or in the case of deniers - detached from reality, we are in desperate need of courageous leadership to implement the radical changes required.. And this is what Extinction Rebellion are trying to force Cleo.

Extinction Rebellion principles are :- Tell the truth: politicians should acknowledge how dire the climate crisis is. . Act as if the truth is real - do everything to reverse course.



Cleo38 said:


> I don't buy much at all, mainly because I don't have spare £££'s but also because I don't need 'stuff', I am not interested in new, shiny things at all & don't go abroad as I won't leave my dogs so am quite low on the consumerism scale (if one exists!). But if everyone was like me then *businesses would fail, people would be out of work & the economy would nose dive & everyone would be affected*…. so what then? What's the answer?


Are you talking about no deal brexit? The switch to a new sustainable system would create jobs Cleo 



Cleo38 said:


> (BTW I honestly don't expect you to solve the world's problems @noushka05 but it all seems so f*cked that I don't see a way back)


While there's still time, there is still hope so we mustn't get too despondent, we should put our energies into forcing change . We have the solutions we just need the political will to carry them through 

The Green Party has a bold framework to rapidly reduce our emissions - https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/cc.html

Friends Of the Earth - https://cdn.friendsoftheearth.uk/si...hway-net-zero-greenhouse-gas-emissions-UK.pdf

Labour's new Green deal - https://www.labourgnd.uk/mission-index-impact#our-plan

One of the worlds leading climate scientists, Kevin Anderson's, Marshall plan - https://www.carbonneutraluniversity.org/delivering-on-2-degrees---kevin-anderson.html

Kevin Anderson is one of the contributors on this excellent video.(as is economist Kate Raworth)


----------



## Elles

What are we going to do about India, China, America, Africa and Russia etc? How will they be persuaded, in particular India, China and some African countries are keen to progress economically and very unwilling to do anything that might hinder their ambitions, regardless of any impact on the climate.

Is there anything the U.K. and Europe can do to off-set the increasing damage these countries are causing? It's far bigger than anything I can imagine.

https://www.politico.eu/article/greens-to-reject-von-der-leyen-as-commission-president/

Greens don't like Von der Leyen.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> and the ones I do buy I keep for years


Me too - I had a coat that I liked so much I had it relined, could have bought a new cheap one for less. 
This has nothing to do with anything really, so my apologies in advance - but I always have to snigger when the papers point out that Kate (DoC) has worn something TWICE! At the tennis yesterday she wore a green dress which apparently cost a couple of grand (yes, they checked on the price), and we were told that, shock, horror, she had worn it once before. I remember reading something similar once before and the ''writer'' described her as ''Thrifty Kate''!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

They're at it again. Can someone please explain to me what 'climate justice' is, precisely? Justice for the climate? What temperature do the protestors think earth should be now and in future? Why 2025 for net zero emissions? How is a 0.8c (since pre industrial revolution) temp rise a 'climate emergency'? etc. etc.

*Extinction Rebellion protesters block roads in UK cities*


----------



## Elles

Did you read the article? I didn’t know there’d been flooding that made people homeless and some were still homeless. Did you?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Yes, I've read that article and a few others today about the ER protest. There was a flood in 1990 that was more devastating so the October 2018 flood was neither unprecedented nor more severe. The evidence it was man made is unproven (and unlikely according to the IPCC.)

_"There is limited to medium evidence available to assess climate-driven observed changes in the magnitude and frequency of floods at regional scales because the available instrumental records of floods at gauge stations are limited in space and time, and because of confounding effects of changes in land use and engineering. Furthermore, *there is low agreement in this evidence, and thus overall low confidence at the global scale regarding even the sign of these changes.*"_

There was another flood in Wales in 1925 caused by 2 weeks of heavy rain that led to a dam breaking and flooding which killed 16 people.

Extreme weather events are not getting worse.


----------



## Elles

I expect the people affected by the floods in 1925 are all dead. I’m talking about today, when we should have better flood defences and there certainly shouldn’t be people still homeless. Now they’ve raised awareness, what are the government going to do to prevent further flooding?


----------



## Elles

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180321130859.htm

Apparently extreme weather events are getting worse.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

ER is calling for the government to declare a "climate emergency" and is also calling for "climate justice" (whatever that is?) They are conflating climate change (now called global heating because it sounds more threatening) and weather events like last year's Wales flood. That is simply not true - there is no connection.

Of course flood defences need to be looked at. So does the location of new build houses.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> Did you read the article? I didn't know there'd been flooding that made people homeless and some were still homeless. Did you?





Elles said:


> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180321130859.htm
> 
> Apparently extreme weather events are getting worse.


Have to rush out to the Post Office before they close. Will look at the link when I get back in.

Please rest assured that extreme weather events are not getting worse.


----------



## Elles

I thought the government had called some kind of climate crisis. 

If you believed the science that says we’re all doomed, would you sit at home and watch tv? I can’t really blame people for protesting and we do need things cleaning up, whether we’re doomed or not. There does seem to be a connection between recent extreme weather events, rising temperatures and human activity though, from what I’ve read. I’m not going to argue with you though, because I don’t actually think it matters.

Even if the scientists warning of climate change are totally wrong and I don’t think they are, cleaning our act and preserving and improving our environment is a good and necessary thing to do regardless.


----------



## Elles

Should they demonstrate against things like formula one racing?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> Should they demonstrate against things like formula one racing?


What do _you_ think?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Now, this was a proper climate emergency. Two million years of global cooling and then a 15 kilometre wide asteroid smashed into earth.

"_For two million years there was a huge amount of volcanic activity going on, spewing gases into the atmosphere and having a major impact on global climate."_

75% of life on earth went extinct because of this. More apt is the fact that 25% of animals survived this catastrophy.

*How an asteroid ended the age of the dinosaurs*


----------



## samuelsmiles3

It's also worth pointing out that, despite the UK being surrounded by offshore wind farms and some huge onshore wind farms like Whitelee in Scotland, we are currently getting 0.8% of our electricity needs from these turbines. UK wind farm capacity 21.5 GW - Actual at present 0.28GW.

And solar - 0%. (It's night time)

GB Grid.


----------



## Elles

I think we’re trying to save life as we know it, or do you just hope you’re part of the 25% that survive?

What are these arguments for? Don’t you agree that clean air and oceans are a good thing?

I think that if they want to reduce emissions etc demonstrating against formula one and other unnecessary excesses involving fossil fuels and thousands of miles would be more logical than blocking roads in our tiny island and it would get them the publicity. Unless they already do and I didn’t notice, because this is my news site and no one mentioned it here. 

I like that in this country if we believe in something we can protest in a peaceful manner. There are plenty of countries we couldn’t.

(I don’t like wind farms, we need something better, but that’s beside the point)


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> I think we're trying to save life as we know it, or do you just hope you're part of the 25% that survive?
> 
> What are these arguments for? Don't you agree that clean air and oceans are a good thing?
> 
> I think that if they want to reduce emissions etc demonstrating against formula one and other unnecessary excesses involving fossil fuels and thousands of miles would be more logical than blocking roads in our tiny island and it would get them the publicity. Unless they already do and I didn't notice, because this is my news site and no one mentioned it here.
> 
> I like that in this country if we believe in something we can protest in a peaceful manner. There are plenty of countries we couldn't.
> 
> (I don't like wind farms, we need something better, but that's beside the point)


Yes, I agree that we are very lucky to have the freedom to protest in this country, and ER is certainly getting the red carpet treatment in this respect by being allowed to close down bridges and roads around the country. They have made it clear that they _demand_ these things. They don't ask for debate - they _demand _everything. Does that remind you of anyone?

I wouldn't mind if the movement had the slightest integrity by admitting that this is a political protest and not a climate change protest. You only have to look at the history of both Gail Bradbrook and Roger Hallam to understand this.

For example, on the front page of the ER website there is a video of an ER woman (Clare Farrell) addressing young people about climate change. At about 7 minutes she says - _"There are some quite credible scientists who think we could lose the arctic next year - completely._" This, of course, is complete and utter BS. So she is either intentionally lying to the students at the meeting or she has been given this propaganda and hasn't checked the facts herself. If she had any credibility herself, ten minutes researching climate change would prove what BS that statement is. Ironically the video is titled 'The Truth'

That this falsehood remains on the front page of the ER website shows that facts don't matter to this movement. It also shows that members of the group are not overly interested in the facts either - and haven't questioned this claim.

F1 racing? Football has a vastly bigger carbon footprint than 21 F1 races during the course of a year. Should we ban football and a whole host of other activities that use energy too?

PS. In this country we have vastly reduced the number of deaths due to poor air quality over the last 40 years. And wind farms are pertinent to this debate because that is what ER _demands _us to revert back to. Quite clearly they haven't spent any time researching energy either.

This movement would cause great damage to the environment if unleashed without challenge. Hopefully they will be gone and a distant memory very soon.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> What are we going to do about India, China, America, Africa and Russia etc? How will they be persuaded, in particular India, China and some African countries are keen to progress economically and very unwilling to do anything that might hinder their ambitions, regardless of any impact on the climate.
> 
> Is there anything the U.K. and Europe can do to off-set the increasing damage these countries are causing? It's far bigger than anything I can imagine.
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/greens-to-reject-von-der-leyen-as-commission-president/
> 
> Greens don't like Von der Leyen.


We should be leading by example, we should also be aiding developing countries in their transition to a sustainable economy. After all our country got rich plundering poorer countries of their resources. Tackling gross inequality is imperative, we desperately need a redistribution of wealth to address social,climate & environmental justice. . Also our historic emissions are astronomical. The industrial revolution began in this county, In addition much of the UKs manufacturing is done in countries like China & India making us complicit in_ their_ emissions.

The Greens don't like Von der Leven because she subscribes to Thatchers ideology of neoliberalism. And this ideology of greed has created gross inequality and is gobbling up our living planet.


samuelsmiles3 said:


> Now, this was a proper climate emergency. Two million years of global cooling and then a 15 kilometre wide asteroid smashed into earth.
> 
> "_For two million years there was a huge amount of volcanic activity going on, s*pewing gases into the atmosphere and having a major impact on global climate*."_
> 
> 75% of life on earth went extinct because of this. More apt is the fact that 25% of animals survived this catastrophy.
> 
> *How an asteroid ended the age of the dinosaurs*


So doesn't your own post suggest that its a bad idea to be spewing gases into the atmosphere as it has a major impact on global climate?

The Great Dying (the Permian Triassic) almost wiped out life on earth. 96% of sea life & 70% of terrestrial vertebrates went extinct. We're now in the 6th mass extinction. - a mass extinction driven by human activity where we are driving species to extinction as fast a rate as the species extinctions in the other five.

_"Current extinction rates for mammals, amphibians, birds, and reptiles, if calculated over the last 500 years (a conservatively slow rate) are faster than (birds, mammals, amphibians, which have 100% of species assessed) or as fast as (reptiles, uncertain because only 19% of species are assessed) all rates that would have produced the Big Five extinctions over hundreds of thousands or millions of years" _

_"there are clear indications that losing species now in the 'critically endangered' category would propel the world to a state of mass extinction that has previously been seen only five times in about 540 million years. Additional losses of species in the 'endangered' and 'vulnerable' categories could accomplish the sixth mass extinction in just a few centuries. It may be of particular concern that this extinction trajectory would play out under conditions that resemble the 'perfect storm' that coincided with past mass extinctions: multiple, atypical high-intensity ecological stressors, including rapid, unusual climate change and highly elevated atmospheric CO2. The huge difference between where we are now, and where we could easily be within a few generations, reveals the urgency of relieving the pressures that are pushing today's species towards extinction."_
*
World Scientists' Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice*
_http://scientistswarning.forestry.o.../files/Warning_article_with_supp_11-13-17.pdf_


*Underground magma triggered Earth's worst mass extinction with greenhouse gases*
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-worst-mass-extinction-with-greenhouse-gases



samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's also worth pointing out that, despite the UK being surrounded by offshore wind farms and some huge onshore wind farms like Whitelee in Scotland, we are currently getting 0.8% of our electricity needs from these turbines. UK wind farm capacity 21.5 GW - Actual at present 0.28GW.
> 
> And solar - 0%. (It's night time)
> 
> GB Grid.


As you're using the National Grid as your source, here are some facts via the NG for you..

https://www.nationalgrid.com/group/...nergy-system-achieves-historic-milestone-2019


























samuelsmiles3 said:


> Yes, I agree that we are very lucky to have the freedom to protest in this country, and ER is certainly getting the red carpet treatment in this respect by being allowed to close down bridges and roads around the country. They have made it clear that they _demand_ these things. They don't ask for debate - they _demand _everything. Does that remind you of anyone?


Without Extinction Rebellion, Greta & the striking students, climate change would not even be in the public eye. By forcing it on the agenda people seem to be finally waking up to the scale of the emergency. (some people  ) We have been debating for decades & now we're out of time. If we dont act now, it will be too late.

*Public concern over environment reaches record high in UK*

Britons are more worried about climate crisis than economy, crime and immigration

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ironment-reaches-record-high?CMP=share_btn_tw


samuelsmiles3 said:


> For example, on the front page of the ER website there is a video of an ER woman (Clare Farrell) addressing young people about climate change. At about 7 minutes she says - _"There are some quite credible scientists who think we could lose the arctic next year - completely._" This, of course, is complete and utter BS. So she is either intentionally lying to the students at the meeting or she has been given this propaganda and hasn't checked the facts herself. If she had any credibility herself, ten minutes researching climate change would prove what BS that statement is. Ironically the video is titled 'The Truth'
> 
> That this falsehood remains on the front page of the ER website shows that facts don't matter to this movement. It also shows that members of the group are not overly interested in the facts either - and haven't questioned this claim.


That is the worst case scenario. The sea ice *is* retreating, do you think we should wait until it does disappear? or do you think it would be wiser to act now before its too late?

Climate scientist *Zack Labe*‏
Current Arctic sea ice extent is the 2nd lowest on record (after 2016)...

Compared to previous decades:

• about 990,000 km² less the 2000s average
• about 1,740,000 km² less the 1990s average
• about 2,440,000 km² less the 1980s average





















samuelsmiles3 said:


> F1 racing? Football has a vastly bigger carbon footprint than 21 F1 races during the course of a year. Should we ban football and a whole host of other activities that use energy too?


What would you sacrifice to save our living planet?



samuelsmiles3 said:


> PS. In this country we have vastly reduced the number of deaths due to poor air quality over the last 40 years


Not over the _last_ 40 years - From 1970 to 2010. We've made no improvements since then - despite the collapse of coal. 36,000 people per year are_ still_ dying in this country due to air pollution. The tories have fought against higher EU standards all the way to the courts!. This is why the hard right are desperate to leave the EU so they can tear up EU regulations which protect our environment (workers rights. our food safety & so on)

*
UK failed to enforce EU air quality standards - what will happen after Brexit?* https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ality-standards-what-will-happen-after-brexit
_But it is now clear that diesel-powered vehicles are likely to be the worst offenders, and for decades government policy has been geared towards encouraging their uptake, through preferential tax rates. The criminal activities of some in the motor industry also outstripped governments' ability to catch up with stronger enforcement.

This government has an astonishing record of being taken to court by activist lawyers determined that ministers should stop ignoring medical evidence on air pollution. By almost this time last year, the government had lost its third court case demanding that it should meet its legal obligations on preventing citizens from breathing dirty air. After that, it was taken to Europe's highest court to explain its actions and still faces millions of pounds in fines for its failure to safeguard UK citizens in accordance with European rules._



samuelsmiles3 said:


> And wind farms are pertinent to this debate because that is what ER _demands _us to revert back to. Quite clearly they haven't spent any time researching energy either.


See above - National grid.


samuelsmiles3 said:


> *This movement would cause great damage to the environment if unleashed without challenge*. Hopefully they will be gone and a distant memory very soon.


Comedy gold


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Icebreaker headed for North Pole turned back by thicker ice than expected

This story gave me a bit of a giggle this morning. 

_"Thick one-year ice combined with *large batches of multi-year ice* joined together into powerful helmets, and several of these are impenetrable to us", said Captain Johnny Peder Hansen.

Eta_. I'll attempt to trawl through your new stuff, Noushka05, when I have time and energy. 'tis very hard going when it's all in one lump like that. __


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Icebreaker headed for North Pole turned back by thicker ice than expected
> 
> This story gave me a bit of a giggle this morning.
> 
> _"Thick one-year ice combined with *large batches of multi-year ice* joined together into powerful helmets, and several of these are impenetrable to us", said Captain Johnny Peder Hansen.
> 
> Eta_. I'll attempt to trawl through your new stuff, Noushka05, when I have time and energy. 'tis very hard going when it's all in one lump like that. __


You're ignoring the long term trend Samuel.

Sorry about that, I did try to space it out to make it clearer. Look forward to your response


----------



## Elles

So what are you personally doing?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> So what are you personally doing?


Using refillable water bottles, recycling, putting clothes on cold wash, being vigilant with the lights in the house, eating less meat you know all that stuff that pretty much everyone does anyway. But these calculators still put me as having the biggest carbon footprint possible. 
I even ditched my petrol lawnmower for an electrical one (loved that lawnmower)


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> So what are you personally doing?


Being thoughtful. 

2. 
synonyms: considerate, attentive, caring, understanding, sympathetic, solicitous, concerned, helpful, friendly, obliging, accommodating, neighbourly, unselfish, kind, kindly, compassionate, tender, charitable, benevolent
"how very thoughtful of you!"


----------



## Elles

Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


No point, yes, just lurking, no, not practical, don't do overseas holidays anyway, making what practical changes I can


----------



## stuaz

Elles said:


> Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


For me I know I have a huge carbon footprint with 5 long haul flights this year so far and 2 short haul flights there's no denying it but it is work related rather than pleasure but it's hard to offset that.

However I still do little things, like switching from a diesel to petrol, working from home where possible, recycling and making my house as green as possible.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So what are you personally doing?


As this is directly after my post am I right to think you want to know what I'm doing Elles? I'm going to assume so.

When I vote the living world is always my priority - so I use my vote for that as I don;t believe anything is more important & enviro/climate justice go hand in hand with social justice, so I have always voted for the politician with the greenest credentials . I am a member of the the greenest party. My diet is pretty much vegan & I grow a lot of my own produce, organically, on my allotments. I've never used chemicals on garden or allotments & I never buy peat based compost as peat is a vital carbon sink. I can't drive so shank's pony is my main mode of transport lol. The energy company we're with is ecotricity , the greenest energy company going I believe. I havent been on a plane for, must be, 18/20 years (and I havent been on holiday in the UK since 2012 - in all honesty though, this is because my hubby & I are both only ones & our elderly Dads depend upon us, plus we've had elderly dogs for a fair few years ). Most of my clothes I get from charity shops - & much of my household stuff is upcycled, 2nd hand. I love do bargains!. When we have had to replace white goods we replace with the most energy efficient. LED light bulbs. Our house is very well insulated so we never have to have the heating on high. I recycle. Stuff like that.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Using refillable water bottles, recycling, putting clothes on cold wash, being vigilant with the lights in the house, eating less meat you know all that stuff that pretty much everyone does anyway. But these calculators still put me as having the biggest carbon footprint possible.
> I even ditched my petrol lawnmower for an electrical one (loved that lawnmower)


I think its because they seem to be focusing on things which have the greatest footprint - like consuming animal products, flying, cars and energy companies as most still invest in fossil fuels. I have 2 children, if they were accounted for, my footprint would be way bigger! (They probably dont account for children as theres not much we can do about that once they're here lol)

We should all do the best we can, but understand that individual action alone is not going to stop climate breakdown, only governments can facilitate the level of changes required. Hence why activism is crucial in raising awareness, if enough people wake up to the scale of the emergency we have a far better chance of forcing governments to take the radical action required.



Elles said:


> Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


All those things.

And on the 20th September >>>


----------



## HarlequinCat

Elles said:


> Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


MPs in my view are never swayed by public opinion. Especially in our local area. Lot of green belt being looked at building on, and lots of meetings to oppose it. But they don't care.
Not going to give up a car, it's too important for what we do. Buses are awful. Every half hr, if they turn up - are often late, and go so far around the houses it takes 1hr and 1/2 for a journey that should take 30 mins. And often (in my home area) we get brats in the back of the bus who play loud music then threaten to stab you if you ask them to turn it down!
Never had a holiday and never been abroad. So that's something I guess


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Icebreaker headed for North Pole turned back by thicker ice than expected
> 
> This story gave me a bit of a giggle this morning.
> 
> _"Thick one-year ice combined with *large batches of multi-year ice* joined together into powerful helmets, and several of these are impenetrable to us", said Captain Johnny Peder Hansen.
> 
> Eta_. I'll attempt to trawl through your new stuff, Noushka05, when I have time and energy. 'tis very hard going when it's all in one lump like that. __


By the way, your reference is to another denier blog Samuel. The person behind it appears to be trying to convince people the planet is COOLING:Hilarious

George Monbiot's reaction tickled me lol (there is a video of George skewering Bellamy over this muppets 'data'. Its well worth a watch, I think I've posted it on here before)
_
"Is Felix a climatologist, a volcanologist or an oceanographer? Er, none of the above. His biography describes him as a "former architect". His website is so bonkers that I thought at first it was a spoof. Sadly, he appears to believe what he says " _

https://web.archive.org/web/2015103...nvironment/2005/may/10/environment.columnists


----------



## samuelsmiles3

noushka05 said:


> By the way, your reference is to another denier blog Samuel. The person behind it appears to be trying to convince people the planet is COOLING:Hilarious
> 
> George Monbiot's reaction tickled me lol (there is a video of George skewering Bellamy over this muppets 'data'. Its well worth a watch, I think I've posted it on here before)
> _
> "Is Felix a climatologist, a volcanologist or an oceanographer? Er, none of the above. His biography describes him as a "former architect". His website is so bonkers that I thought at first it was a spoof. Sadly, he appears to believe what he says " _
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/2015103...nvironment/2005/may/10/environment.columnists


I'm sorry the source isn't to your liking, Noushka - I was more interested in the story, though.

I hope this link is to your approval. 

Norsk isbryter måtte snu nord for Svalbard, møtte «betydelig tjukkere ismasser» enn forventet


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'm sorry the source isn't to your liking, Noushka - I was more interested in the story, though.
> 
> I hope this link is to your approval.
> 
> Norsk isbryter måtte snu nord for Svalbard, møtte «betydelig tjukkere ismasser» enn forventet


Denier blogs cherry pick to fit their extreme confirmation bias. I wasn't disputing the story was true, that may well be. As I said you are ignoring the long term trends Samuel.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Roger Hallam. Co-founder of extinction rebellion -

_"the next generation of kids die unless we make changes now."_

Hallam's other attempts at anarchy have failed, so he now uses young children as a front for his 'cause.' Evil man.

Extinction Rebellion: Last Chance to Save the World?


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Roger Hallam. Co-founder of extinction rebellion -
> 
> _"the next generation of kids die unless we make changes now."_
> 
> Hallam's other attempts at anarchy have failed, so he now uses young children as a front for his 'cause.' Evil man.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion: Last Chance to Save the World?


He was a farmer.

Obviously couldn't make it pay and finds this much more lucrative


----------



## mrs phas

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Roger Hallam. Co-founder of extinction rebellion -
> 
> _"the next generation of kids die unless we make changes now."_


has he not observed
*EVERY* generation dies
tis the way of the world


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Mercifully, I think we could be close to seeing the end of Extinction Rebellion. The utter hypocrisy, righteousness and narcissism of these people will see the group fall apart.

*Extinction Rebellion abandon Heathrow protests as split in its ranks emerges *


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


I sign petitions and have emailed MPs , wouldnt be able to take part in large demos due to disability.
Not giving up my car. I am limited in my walking and really rely on it. I do get a bus and train when I can . Share car trips with my neighbour for food shopping etc.
I have a holiday once a year in south england and Im not giving that up .

On the other hand , I dont have a dishwasher or tumble dryer. Washing machine used twice a week . Recycle religiously .


----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious

@AngryBritain
·
4h
71% of Britons claim the climate is more pressing than Brexit. That'll be the 71% of Britons who don't work and have the time to tow boats to Oxford Street using a diesel HGV, whom Brexit won't affect anyway. Have a shower you crusty *****. Then **** off.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> @AngryBritain
> ·
> 4h
> 71% of Britons claim the climate is more pressing than Brexit. That'll be the 71% of Britons who don't work and have the time to tow boats to Oxford Street using a diesel HGV, whom Brexit won't affect anyway. Have a shower you crusty *****. Then **** off.


I prefer satire when its based on fact


----------



## LinznMilly

Elles said:


> Is anyone writing to MPs, signing petitions, joining groups, demonstrating, giving up cars, holidays etc?


I've signed so many petitions about animal welfare and the environment, that I've had those who start them send me error messages - turns out I've already signed them and have lost track. 

Last holiday abroad was a cruise around the Norwegian Fjords in 2016. Last time I was in an aeroplane - 2011. I have the occasional change of scenery (short break) here.

Gave up my car in 2017 as I couldn't afford to keep it on the road. As a domicilliary carer, I walk between calls (except when the office expects me to tear myself in 2 and do 2 calls at the same time - as they did today ). Last time I took a bus to get between calls, it took longer than it would have if I'd walked.

Most of my clothes are years old, and shoes fall off my feet before they're replaced.

I'm mostly vegan - refuse to eat meat, poultry or fish/seafood, and never knowingly buy eggs or dairy, but some packaged/processed foods have caught me off-guard, despite my efforts to be vigilant.

Carbon footprint calculator says I'm using 44% of my "allowance", or 0.8 Earths.

I intend to switch to a green energy company in the next few months, which will bring me down to 0.5 Earths, apparently.


----------



## noushka05

*
Climate change deniers, the tories :*


----------



## noushka05




----------



## HarlequinCat

This is interesting. This article is about the Extinction rebellion and how it should target higher polluting countries such as Russia India, Australia and the US. I know they have a branch in the US but you don't hear much about it. The UK has done a lot to reduce CO2 emissions etc, but these other countries have not. 
Maybe they should focus more attention elsewhere. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/blogs....protests-are-targeting-the-wrong-country/amp/

Brazil for instance. There is unease there with the leader not seeming to do much about gold miners destroying tribes and rainforest. Or the developments taking out more and more rainforest. That is very important for the climate as it locks in so much gases. Not to mention loss of habitat. But we don't hear much about this in the news


----------



## rona

HarlequinCat said:


> This is interesting. This article is about the Extinction rebellion and how it should target higher polluting countries such as Russia India, Australia and the US. I know they have a branch in the US but you don't hear much about it. The UK has done a lot to reduce CO2 emissions etc, but these other countries have not.
> Maybe they should focus more attention elsewhere.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/blogs....protests-are-targeting-the-wrong-country/amp/
> 
> Brazil for instance. There is unease there with the leader not seeming to do much about gold miners destroying tribes and rainforest. Or the developments taking out more and more rainforest. That is very important for the climate as it locks in so much gases. Not to mention loss of habitat. But we don't hear much about this in the news


I don't think they'd get away with it in Brazil or Russia do you? 
This country is an easy target


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> @AngryBritain
> ·
> 4h
> 71% of Britons claim the climate is more pressing than Brexit. That'll be the 71% of Britons who don't work and have the time to tow boats to Oxford Street using a diesel HGV, whom Brexit won't affect anyway. Have a shower you crusty *****. Then **** off.


The ones who do work pay towards removing the litter and placards which this lot leave behind. Very green indeed!.(That's if they can even get to work if some git has glued himself to a train.)


----------



## HarlequinCat

rona said:


> I don't think they'd get away with it in Brazil or Russia do you?
> This country is an easy target


Well that is very true. Look at the protests in Hong Kong (on a different matter). They don't tolerate that much


----------



## Magyarmum

HarlequinCat said:


> Well that is very true. Look at the protests in Hong Kong (on a different matter). They don't tolerate that much


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/28/...AR1ry7_kgps3rulHTpT5YxK4_hNMzRm-r1r_hEml6U__x

*BRASÍLIA - The destruction of the Amazon rain forest in Brazil has increased rapidly since the nation's new far-right president took over and his government scaled back efforts to fight illegal logging, ranching and mining.*


----------



## HarlequinCat

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/28/...AR1ry7_kgps3rulHTpT5YxK4_hNMzRm-r1r_hEml6U__x
> 
> *BRASÍLIA - The destruction of the Amazon rain forest in Brazil has increased rapidly since the nation's new far-right president took over and his government scaled back efforts to fight illegal logging, ranching and mining.*


That's awful, you think they would want to protect something as special as the rainforest


----------



## Magyarmum

Two interesting articles that are well worth reading ....

https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/last-call-food-systems-revolution

*Last call for a food systems revolution*

https://aftonhalloran.com/2019/03/3...ummit/?blogsub=confirming#blog_subscription-3

*Roast Beef Rebellion @ European Food Summit*


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> This is interesting. This article is about the Extinction rebellion and how it should target higher polluting countries such as Russia India, Australia and the US. I know they have a branch in the US but you don't hear much about it. *The UK has done a lot to reduce CO2 emissions etc,* but these other countries have not.
> Maybe they should focus more attention elsewhere.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/blogs....protests-are-targeting-the-wrong-country/amp/
> 
> Brazil for instance. There is unease there with the leader not seeming to do much about gold miners destroying tribes and rainforest. Or the developments taking out more and more rainforest. That is very important for the climate as it locks in so much gases. Not to mention loss of habitat. But we don't hear much about this in the news


I read that article too.

From what I recall, I think the Government has missed more goals than it set out to do.. @noushka05 may know the stats.

Here's the Air Quality report dated April 2019
_'The UK is set to miss its carbon emissions targets starting from 2022 with its carbon budget shortfall set to worsen, the government has confirmed._ _Today the Department for Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) released a report (EEP 2018) updating its energy and emissions projections for the UK's next three Carbon Budget periods which run into the early 2030s.

It revealed that while the UK is set to comply with its current third Carbon Budget - which started in 2018 and lasts until 2022 - it will currently miss its targets for the fourth and fifth Carbon Budgets even more than been predicted in last year's official update. New figures have shown the projected shortfall for the fourth Carbon Budget to be 139 tonnes of CO2 equivalent (MtCO2e) and 245MtCO2e for the fifth Carbon Budget - up from 94MtCO2e and 196 MtCO2e respectively.'
_
If I'm right, we have to succeed until 2050. That seems to be the year I read a lot.

For information, XR have 27 branches in Australia and 47 in USA  I would think that, from working in Russia and India, freedom of speech must come into it and with such a huge problem with climate breakdown, it's easier to start with countries that allow protest to get change than begin with the impossible ones. There's more info on all the countries where XR has branches here.

I am not completely in agreement over all their actions, but I absolutely see it as the only way to get a voice. Having been to several events in Cambridge in person including a street party, at which I can tell PF including @rona and @Calvine that all litter was collected. Much of it came from people not protesting but wandering through but was collected up. I took along a picker! The general idea is leave no trace because it plays into the hands of.. well, objectors, naysayers, the Daily Mail and arm chair critics and that would be really silly. But I also see that some things they do aren't good too.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.lepoint.fr/environnemen...a-surconsommation-29-07-2019-2327347_1927.php

*The "day of overtaking", symbol of overconsumption*

*In 2019, all the resources that the Earth can produce in one year were used in just seven months ... A period that continues to dwindle.*
By Le Point.fr (with AFP)


----------



## Elles

Truth is, if someone believes that the world is really going to end in the next 10 years and we are heading for Armageddon unless we all completely change what we do and how we live, that someone must know that there’s absolutely no chance and the end of a habitable planet is inevitable. 

Fortunately people are working on practical solutions and technology, instead of handwringing and wanting everyone else to change while they carry on as is, and the rest of us are doing what little we can, whilst maintaining a reasonable standard of living. We could save the planet by giving up our computers and technology, moving into mud huts and having no children. The next generation would save the planet, because there wouldn’t be one, but that’s not a realistic expectation either. 

We have to be practical and realistic.


----------



## noushka05

HarlequinCat said:


> This is interesting. This article is about the Extinction rebellion and how it should target higher polluting countries such as Russia India, Australia and the US. I know they have a branch in the US but you don't hear much about it. The UK has done a lot to reduce CO2 emissions etc, but these other countries have not.
> Maybe they should focus more attention elsewhere.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/blogs....protests-are-targeting-the-wrong-country/amp/
> 
> Brazil for instance. There is unease there with the leader not seeming to do much about gold miners destroying tribes and rainforest. Or the developments taking out more and more rainforest. That is very important for the climate as it locks in so much gases. Not to mention loss of habitat. But we don't hear much about this in the news


Extinction Rebellion is a global movement responding to a global emergency, climate change doesn't respect borders. Protests are happening right across the globe, but we need masses more people to get out onto the streets and support them. The Spectator article is just trying to discredit ER & is passing the book to other countries, when our historical emissions are astronomical. The UK has not done nearly as well as the tories would like us to believe in reducing emissions . The Government omitted our emissions from international shipping, aviation & imports in the figures. And as Molly says the UK is off target for emission reduction. The government is still going ahead with fracking whilst destroying the renewables sector & giving massive subsidies to the fossil fuel industry.

The tories are also funding fossil fuel projects in other countries https://www.theguardian.com/environ...oon-britain-stop-invest-fossil-fuels-overseas

This is world leading climate scientist, Kevin Anderson.









So to reiterate what David Attenborough said: '_Who started the problem? This country. It was the industrial revolution that started here, based on burning coal': David Attenborough says Britain should take a lead on climate change.

_
Brazil's new leader shows how dangerous right wing populism is for, not just that country, but for the planet. And, we too have a right wing populist government at the helm, so the battle for climate/enviro justice is going to be the battle of our lives.



Elles said:


> Truth is, if someone believes that the world is really going to end in the next 10 years and we are heading for Armageddon unless we all completely change what we do and how we live, that someone must know that there's absolutely no chance and the end of a habitable planet is inevitable.


No one has said the world is going end in the next 10 years

We must cut our emssions in half to have a chance of staying below 1.5C of warming - every degree of warming matters or we risk triggering dangerous tipping points. Please listen to the scientists Elles- .https://www.ipcc.ch/2018/10/08/summ...obal-warming-of-1-5c-approved-by-governments/

. Climate change was a crisis decades ago, if our generation had voted for the climate then, had made climate/ the environment priority, we would have had the time to make the changes progressively - as we did sod all, we now must make revolutionary changes in the small window of opportunity we have left. The looming catastrophe is preventable uless we remain apathetic.



Elles said:


> Fortunately people are working on practical solutions and technology, instead of handwringing and wanting everyone else to change while they carry on as is, and the rest of us are doing what little we can, whilst maintaining a reasonable standard of living. We could save the planet by giving up our computers and technology, moving into mud huts and having no children. The next generation would save the planet, because there wouldn't be one, but that's not a realistic expectation either.


People getting off their backsides & fighting for change, fighting to force the government to tell the truth aren't the ones doing the handwringing.. We have the practical solutions and technology to make radical changes already. We simply dont have time to waste and hope for better technology which may never be developed in the short time frame we have now. And this still wouldn't address our unsustainable economic model. Or do you believe we can have infinite growth on a finite planet? (no one has answered this very straight forward question yet)

We dont have to live in mud huts to save the planet, we need to stop burning fossil fuels & switch to a sustainable economic model.



Elles said:


> We have to be practical and realistic.


We certainly do - which is why we must stop burning fossil fuels & make the switch to a sustainable economic model ASAP. Relying on technology which doesn't exist is fool hardy.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.lepoint.fr/environnemen...a-surconsommation-29-07-2019-2327347_1927.php
> 
> *The "day of overtaking", symbol of overconsumption*
> 
> *In 2019, all the resources that the Earth can produce in one year were used in just seven months ... A period that continues to dwindle.*
> By Le Point.fr (with AFP)


Yet many people prioritise an unsustainable economic model over our biosphere. Its insane.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> We could save the planet by giving up our computers and technology, moving into mud huts and having no children.


In all the Carbon footprint calculators I've never seen a question on how many kids you've produced. This has got to be one of the biggest factors in calculating carbon footprint


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> In all the Carbon footprint calculators I've never seen a question on how many kids you've produced. This has got to be one of the biggest factors in calculating carbon footprint


Of course, but not something we can do anything about once there here.

ETA Consumption is something we can all do something about. And its worth noting that people in developing countries who tend to have big families are responsible for a fraction of the worlds emissions. Western counties, where small families are the norm are responsible for 50%


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Truth is, if someone believes that the world is really going to end in the next 10 years and we are heading for Armageddon unless we all completely change what we do and how we live, that someone must know that there's absolutely no chance and the end of a habitable planet is inevitable.
> 
> Fortunately people are working on practical solutions and technology, instead of handwringing and wanting everyone else to change while they carry on as is, and the rest of us are doing what little we can, whilst maintaining a reasonable standard of living. We could save the planet by giving up our computers and technology, moving into mud huts and having no children. The next generation would save the planet, because there wouldn't be one, but that's not a realistic expectation either.
> 
> We have to be practical and realistic.


Mud huts if the walls are thick enough are cool in summer and warm in winter ...... I know because my Hungarian hovel is made of mud , although it does have all mod cons!:Hilarious


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Of course, but not something we can do anything about once there here.
> 
> ETA Consumption is something we can all do something about. And its worth noting that people in developing countries who tend to have big families are responsible for a fraction of the worlds emissions. Western counties, where small families are the norm are responsible for 50%


They tend to eat less meat, drive fewer cars, hardly ever travel in a plane but they are all in the calculators. Just because the kid thing is the other way round, I don't see how that can be taken out of the calculation.

A person in this country that has had even 2 kids have a massively bigger footprint than I do. Once my life has ended, that's it, the end of my negative impact on the Earth.......can you say the same?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> They tend to eat less meat, drive fewer cars, hardly ever travel in a plane but they are all in the calculators. Just because the kid thing is the other way round, I don't see how that can be taken out of the calculation.
> 
> A person in this country that has had even 2 kids have a massively bigger footprint than I do


They are barely consumers Rona even with large families.

I would expect a person in this country with two children (providing they're not on the poverty line as many today are) is likely to have far a larger footprint than the average person (also not in poverty) without children. But I think voting for the climate is the most important thing of all. If most of us had no kids but voted for a politicians which prioritised this unsustainable system we are always going to be screwed.


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> They are barely consumers Rona even with large families.
> 
> I would expect a person in this country with two children (providing they're not on the poverty line as many today are) is likely to have far a larger footprint than the average person (also not in poverty) without children. But I think voting for the climate is the most important thing of all. If most of us had no kids but voted for a politicians which prioritised this unsustainable system we are always going to be screwed.


So you reckon a family with 5 kids isn't killing the planet?

If everyone stopped breeding we may have a chance, doesn't matter what the politicians do if the plague of humans keeps doubling every few years


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Of course, but not something we can do anything about once there here.
> 
> ETA Consumption is something we can all do something about. And its worth noting that people in developing countries who tend to have big families are responsible for a fraction of the worlds emissions. Western counties, where small families are the norm are responsible for 50%


That's all very well, but the poorer people in the developing countries are unlikely to be using a carbon footprint calculator. So it's more important to know the impact for those people having the 50% contribution. Having a family obviously being part of that.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> So you reckon a family with 5 kids isn't killing the planet?
> 
> If everyone stopped breeding we may have a chance, doesn't matter what the politicians do if the plague of humans keeps doubling every few years


Consumption is something we can act on & make a difference. Please see video below.



MilleD said:


> That's all very well, but the poorer people in the developing countries are unlikely to be using a carbon footprint calculator. So it's more important to know the impact for those people having the 50% contribution. Having a family obviously being part of that.


Climate scientist, Kevin Anderson, is an expert on emissions. Listen to him explain.

Are you able to play the video?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112090584175595521


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Consumption is something we can act on & make a difference. Please see video below.
> 
> Climate scientist, Kevin Anderson, is an expert on emissions. Listen to him explain.
> 
> Are you able to play the video?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112090584175595521
> View attachment 411661


You're completely missing the point I think (no I can't watch the vid), Rona was asking why it isn't factored into a calculator when it is surely part of your carbon footprint?

I understand that someone living in the first world would have a far greater footprint than someone in a developing country, but the calculators don't take everything into account, so they are a little pointless.


----------



## rona

If you match up the greenest countries with either their population or population growth, it becomes very very obvious that population growth is at least part (a very big part) of the issue


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Consumption is something we can act on & make a difference. Please see video below.
> 
> Climate scientist, Kevin Anderson, is an expert on emissions. Listen to him explain.
> 
> Are you able to play the video?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112090584175595521
> View attachment 411661


Makes not a lot of difference if there are now 5 people consuming rather than 2


----------



## Elles

Nearly 2k people die each day in the U.K. alone.

https://scattering-ashes.co.uk/help-advice/funeral/environment/


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Nearly 2k people die each day in the U.K. alone.
> 
> https://scattering-ashes.co.uk/help-advice/funeral/environment/


I don't understand the relevance of this. Am I being dense? 

Don't forget, we are at the stage where the baby boomers are now dying, that distorts that figure

There are approximately the same amount of births, then net migration is running at a little over quarter of a million annually


----------



## Elles

It supports your view that more people mean bigger carbon footprint, even if only from dropping dead. :Hilarious One cremation is the equivalent of driving 500 miles and that’s without taking into account the actual driving of the folk still alive and attending the funeral and the wake and we all die.

In the U.K alone that’s one big footprint we can do something to reduce, but isn’t taken into account in these calculators either and I’ve never seen it mentioned. Cardboard box for me and walk to the local pub, no need for anyone to watch. If my 2 kids who live abroad fly in for it, even worse, my daughter can skype it, if they really need something.

I don’t get why people need to travel about for conferences these days. They can stay put and use technology.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> It supports your view that more people mean bigger carbon footprint, even if only from dropping dead. :Hilarious One cremation is the equivalent of driving 500 miles and that's without taking into account the actual driving of the folk still alive and attending the funeral and the wake and we all die.
> 
> In the U.K alone that's one big footprint we can do something to reduce, but isn't taken into account in these calculators either and I've never seen it mentioned. Cardboard box for me and walk to the local pub, no need for anyone to watch. If my 2 kids who live abroad fly in for it, even worse, my daughter can skype it, if they really need something.
> 
> I don't get why people need to travel about for conferences these days. They can stay put and use technology.


Which is completely the reason HS2 needs binning. We are too Londoncentric as it is, why do we need to get there faster?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://europa.eu/investeu/projects/rooftop-greenhouses-cut-co2_en

*Rooftop greenhouses to cut CO2*
*Recovering lost heat from buildings to produce vegetables and herbs*


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Makes not a lot of difference if there are now 5 people consuming rather than 2


Someone in a poor country with 10 children wont have as big a carbon foot print as you or I.. They can barely be classed as consumers.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Nearly 2k people die each day in the U.K. alone.


 Probably former PF members who died of boredom after reading some of the Brexit posts.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> It supports your view that more people mean bigger carbon footprint, even if only from dropping dead. :Hilarious One cremation is the equivalent of driving 500 miles and that's without taking into account the actual driving of the folk still alive and attending the funeral and the wake and we all die.
> 
> In the U.K alone that's one big footprint we can do something to reduce, but isn't taken into account in these calculators either and I've never seen it mentioned. Cardboard box for me and walk to the local pub, no need for anyone to watch. If my 2 kids who live abroad fly in for it, even worse, my daughter can skype it, if they really need something.
> 
> I don't get why people need to travel about for conferences these days. They can stay put and use technology.


Oh I get it now and totally agree


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Someone in a poor country with 10 children wont have as big a carbon foot print as you or I.. They can barely be classed as consumers.


You've had kids, in this country, so you've got a massively bigger footprint than I. Especially as you live in a much bigger house also, I bet my monthly fuel bill is less than your weekly. I also never fly........


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> One cremation is the equivalent of driving 500 miles and that's without taking into account the actual driving of the folk still alive and attending the funeral and the wake and we all die.
> 
> In the U.K alone that's one big footprint we can do something to reduce, but isn't taken into account in these calculators either and I've never seen it mentioned.


We're running out of space for burials and a cremation is touted as being 'greener' anyway

How about we revert to the greenest form, leaving our dead on raised platforms for owls, birds of prey, carrion eaters, vermin etc to consume
Give back to nature what we take await


----------



## Magyarmum

Makes the 25 trees I've planted look insignificant!

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/29/africa/ethiopia-plants-350-million-trees-intl-hnk/index.html

*Ethiopia plants more than 350 million trees in 12 hours*

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/04/...hirds-of-carbon-emissions-scn-intl/index.html

*Restoring forests could capture two-thirds of the carbon humans have added to the atmosphere*


----------



## 3dogs2cats

mrs phas said:


> We're running out of space for burials and a cremation is touted as being 'greener' anyway
> 
> How about we revert to the greenest form, leaving our dead on raised platforms for owls, birds of prey, carrion eaters, vermin etc to consume
> Give back to nature what we take await


 This what my daughter wants but I don't think it is ever likely to be legal. Would be a good idea for pets too, everyone seems to wants their dogs, cats etc individual cremated these days.


----------



## MollySmith

There are many people making the decision not to have children - I've met the founder of Birthstrike, Blythe Pepino, and taken part in a talk with her. It's an interesting and emotive idea, birth strike, but there is a huge difference between someone who is _mostly_ ambilivant about children (I say mostly as I know that Pepino would much rather be a mother in safe planet than not) - that is to say more in the camp of child-free than a parent telling those who haven't had children that they ought not to to save our planet. I'll listen to Blythe even if I don't agree as she leads by example even if I don't share or empathise with her views because of our very different back stories.

Blythe has many views and one is that the world is too dangerous to bring a child into. She has made that choice. My view - and I'm imagining for the 48.5 million for whom didn't have a choice as to whether they were a parent - is that it's probably a vague crumb of comfort but it's not enough to tolerate the 'convenient argument' as George Mobiot says in @noushka05's quote since we're all humans with emotions and needs. I've been told that me not being able to have children is a good thing for nature. I imagine a space where my son would have stood every day. I'll do all I can to keep a low footprint but won't celebrate my childless not by choice status as a planet saving measure. I'm not expecting or wishing to enter into a debate about -free and -not by choice but gently asking for a bit of consideration to the latter 

Edited to add in link to Birthstrike interview.


----------



## rona

Seems Harry and Megan agree 

Though their effort won't be seen until their own deaths. Mind, who knows how many grandchildren they will have by then


----------



## mrs phas

I have 4 children and am proud I did and proud of them
No one, and I mean no one, certainly not some teenage/twenty something, who thinks the way to solve world problems is to use super glue themself to a train, will ever make me think or feel I made a wrong decision in having 4, in fact I would've happily gone on to have more, but nature intervened.
After all, they, the ER young people, wouldn't even be here if their parents had followed their call to not have children


----------



## Elles

I don’t believe that anyone much actually believes we have 10 years at most, or the planet will burn. A young girl travelling the world to warn us, is like a religious person carrying a board with “The End is Nigh” on it. Even if they’re right this time, it’s not going to work and people running behind her, waving their placards and threatening Heathrow, just comes across as fanatical now.  They’ve made their views seem so hopeless and extreme, we might as well as well just ignore them. Very few are going to do what they’re asking us to do, not even they do it.  I think they’ve got carried away.

It has worked to a degree, in that climate change is back on the agenda, but I’m sorry, people are not going to give up flying and travel on yachts instead and suggesting that kind of thing just turns people off imo.


----------



## Magyarmum

Another nail in the environment's coffin .......................

https://citizentruth.org/trump-administration-dealt-multiple-blows-to-honey-bees-this-month/

*Trump Administration Dealt Multiple Blows to Honey Bees This Month*


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Another nail in the environment's coffin .......................
> 
> https://citizentruth.org/trump-administration-dealt-multiple-blows-to-honey-bees-this-month/
> 
> *Trump Administration Dealt Multiple Blows to Honey Bees This Month*


Not only that but it was tested on Beagles, rats, hens and goats


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> You've had kids, in this country, so you've got a massively bigger footprint than I. Especially as you live in a much bigger house also, I bet my monthly fuel bill is less than your weekly. I also never fly........


You have missed the point spectacularly to have a dig at me. So I'll try again. A poor person in a developing country with 10 kids wont have a carbon footprint as big as you, Rona, as they can barely be classed as consumers.

(AJFYI, I live in a 3 bedroom semi (in a pit village!), not a flippin mansion & I believe in fuel efficiency so my fuel bill is minimal, also i'm with the greenest energy company. But yes I do have two (wonderful) children so with those added on, my carbon footprint will no doubt be bigger than yours even though you drive a car & eat meat.)



Elles said:


> I don't believe that anyone much actually believes we have 10 years at most, or the planet will burn. A young girl travelling the world to warn us, is like a religious person carrying a board with "The End is Nigh" on it. Even if they're right this time, y.


People would be wise to listen to the scientists, like Greta & Extinction Rebellion are doing. A religious person preaching doom is following their 'belief', Greta is led by scientific evidence  Many of the worlds leading scientists have spoken out & endorsed Greta's message because she is repeating the best science.

Greta speaks with clarity & profound understanding of the emergency.





Sadly climate change deniers are invariably conspiracy theorists - or they believe the science but pretend no too because of their ideological agenda.

In the right wing Telegraph of all places.

*Climate change deniers 'are either extreme free marketeers or conspiracy theorists'*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ea...-free-marketeers-or-conspiracy-theorists.html



Elles said:


> just comes across as fanatical now.  They've made their views seem so hopeless and extreme, we might as well as well just ignore them. Very few are going to do what they're asking us to do, not even they do it.  I think they've got carried away.


The people fighting to save the planet are fanatical, the ones destroying it for profit aren't. Sums up the Orwellian times we're living in perfectly..

They understand that we have no more road to kick the can down. Climate change was a crisis decades ago, but many people put an unsustainable rampant form of capitalism (Thatcherism) above the needs of the living planet.



Elles said:


> It has worked to a degree, in that climate change is back on the agenda, but I'm sorry, people are not going to give up flying and travel on yachts instead and suggesting that kind of thing just turns people off imo.


As I said, climate change is not going to be stopped by individual action alone & many people simply won't want to give up their flights abroad, no. And this is why we need courageous leadership from above which imposes the same constraints on everybody by a carbon cap, so everyone has the same carbon budget .


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> You have missed the point spectacularly to have a dig at me. So I'll try again. A poor person in a developing country with 10 kids wont have a carbon footprint as big as you, Rona, as they can barely be classed as consumers.


Oddly I think it is you that have missed the point spectacularly by your insistence on keep going back to poor developing countries. I'm well aware that they aren't the problem but you are in denial about others effect on the environment., just because it's an inconvenient truth

It's not me that keeps mentioning developing countries


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/e...t-du-plastique-dans-les-pyrenees_3561915.html

*Pollution: it's raining plastic in the Pyrenees!*


----------



## samuelsmiles3

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Mercifully, I think we could be close to seeing the end of Extinction Rebellion. The utter hypocrisy, righteousness and narcissism of these people will see the group fall apart.


Extinction Rebellion founder calls for mass psychedelic disobedience.

This really is now taking on a Jonestown Massacre type of direction.


----------



## MilleD

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion founder calls for mass psychedelic disobedience.
> 
> This really is now taking on a Jonestown Massacre type of direction.




I was going to ask what she is on, but I think she's answered that herself!


----------



## Elles

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion founder calls for mass psychedelic disobedience.
> 
> This really is now taking on a Jonestown Massacre type of direction.


Does one extreme deserve another? She's suggesting people get high on mushrooms, not commit mass suicide and murder children.

There's no need for us all to get hysterical.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> Does one extreme deserve another? She's suggesting people get high on mushrooms, not commit mass suicide and murder children.
> 
> There's no need for us all to get hysterical.


Hahaha, seriously? Maybe the people in the survey were vetted or a certain type of person because my experience of psychedelic drugs certainly didn't change my political views or bring closer to nature …. I was paranoid for days afterwards & felt as if I was losing my grip on reality. It was horrible 

Promoting this is quite irresponsible IMO


----------



## Elles

"Cleo38 said:


> Promoting this is quite irresponsible IMO


I agree. 

I just think comparing the environmental movement to Jonestown is exaggerating and just as ridiculous as some nutty woman telling people to partake of magic mushrooms. :Hilarious


----------



## mrs phas

> "I would support a mass civil disobedience where we take medicine to tell the state that they have absolutely no right to control our consciousness and to define our spiritual practice


But its OK for our minds to be controlled by a psychotropic substance( s) that we have no real, in depth, knowledge about, nor the long term effects
There are people that took LSD in the 1960/70 that still report flashbacks nowadays, let alone those that we left with brain imbalances including, but not limited to, schizophrenia, personality disorder, and PTSD

Anyone that's stupid enough to do this, really deserve everything they get


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion founder calls for mass psychedelic disobedience.
> 
> This really is now taking on a Jonestown Massacre type of direction.


@samuelsmiles3: Yes indeed; it more or less explains why they are all as totally bonkers as we all thought they were (well, as _most_ of us on here thought they were).


----------



## Elles

They are not all totally bonkers, any more than all who voted for brexit are racist.


----------



## Calvine

Another jolly jape:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...d-stage-diein-at-london-fashion-a4235691.html


----------



## Calvine

https://news.sky.com/story/extincti...ne-to-spray-treasury-with-fake-blood-11826140

It's time they were made to pay for the clean-up.


----------



## MilleD

Having been brought back to this thread, has anyone seen @noushka05 around recently?

I don't recall seeing her for a bit?


----------



## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/extincti...ne-to-spray-treasury-with-fake-blood-11826140
> 
> It's time they were made to pay for the clean-up.


Oh the irony!!! So wasting 1800 litres of water (not including the water & detergents that may be used for the clean up) is ok & part of fighting for environmental causes??!! What [email protected]


----------



## samuelsmiles3

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

Morons.

How do you hire a fire engine for a morning pissing about?


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Morons.
> 
> How do you hire a fire engine for a morning pissing about?


Decommissioned one, from the sound of the article. Obviously didn't do any research on why you have two firemen to a hosepipe, though!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Love the way The Guardian is attempting to put a positive spin on these clowns' circus performance.

"Extinction Rebellion activists have sprayed 1,800 litres of fake blood on the Treasury's building in Westminster."

No, about 8 litres went on to the building and the rest was friendly fire. Shouldn't be too difficult identifying these halfwits, though. :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Beth78

1st time I've properly laughed in a while, they look so silly.
I can't imagine this changing anything apart from making them a laughing stock.
I am all for trying to change things to reduce the impact of humans on climate change but this is not the way to go about it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Beth78 said:


> 1st time I've properly laughed in a while, they look so silly.
> I can't imagine this changing anything apart from making them a laughing stock.
> I am all for trying to change things to reduce the impact of humans on climate change but this is not the way to go about it.


It's the sort of thing my 21 year old grandson and his pals would think up!

Like I say to him ... "For a supposedly intelligent fellow you can sometimes be surprisingly dim"


----------



## Calvine

Beth78 said:


> 1st time I've properly laughed in a while, they look so silly.
> I can't imagine this changing anything apart from making them a laughing stock.
> I am all for trying to change things to reduce the impact of humans on climate change but this is not the way to go about it.


It is not likely to win anyone over to their cause, you are right there.


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> Oh the irony!!! So wasting 1800 litres of water (not including the water & detergents that may be used for the clean up) is ok & part of fighting for environmental causes??!! What [email protected]


Yes, agree. The poor sods cleaning up the shit they leave behind are doing far more for the environment than this load of goons will ever do in their gormless lives. . . and of course, as you say, more water wasted in the clean-up. Arseholes!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Looks like the Extinction Rebellionists' day is going to get a whole lot worse. This is 'their' untaxed Dennis Sabre, 8.5 litre turbo diesel Cummins engined, eco friendly 5 mpg fire engine.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Beth78 said:


> 1st time I've properly laughed in a while, they look so silly.
> I can't imagine this changing anything apart from making them a laughing stock.
> I am all for trying to change things to reduce the impact of humans on climate change but this is not the way to go about it.


Haha. Have you seen the video of the Extinction Rebellion crisis emergency breakdown with the Benny Hill music on Twitter. It's the funniest thing I have seen in years.:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Thursday 3 October 2019 by Lucas Wilde*

*Climate change 'written off as a hoax' as weather finally does what it's supposed to at this time of year*









*The weather has actually become autumnal, which means climate change is officially a hoax.*

Temperatures dropped to ten degrees celsius and below across Britain today, which is roughly what should be happening in October, as opposed to the ridiculously tropical weather which occurred throughout much of September.

"Ah, see? It's bullshit," said Simon Williams, looking out of his window and confusing "weather" with "climate" for the 867th time.

"The weather on this particular day is entirely predictable for October in Britain so that Greta girl, Jason Momoa and all the others can jump down a mine shaft without a torch.

"I'm definitely right, and my conclusion is based on what I can see out the window right now, just like most of my conclusions."

Scientist, Jay Cooper, said, "Yeah, no, that's not how it works.

"Climate, and climate change, is more about weather over a period of many years, rather than whether or not you have to pop a coat on _today_.

"I have some graphs and some actual studies here. I can set them up in front of your window if you like?

"Oh, Simon's closed the curtains and put the snooker on."


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion reveals plans to 'shut down' central London from next week with its biggest protests yet

So, an unelected group of activists that thinks we should be "net zero carbon emissions by 2025' plans to bring London to a standstill. I think the patience of most reasonable people trying to earn an honest living may soon be tested to the limit.

There is no climate crisis, no climate emergency, no climate breakdown, no such thing as climate grief and no such thing as climate anxiety.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion reveals plans to 'shut down' central London from next week with its biggest protests yet
> 
> So, an unelected group of activists that thinks we should be "net zero carbon emissions by 2025' plans to bring London to a standstill. I think the patience of most reasonable people trying to earn an honest living may soon be tested to the limit.
> 
> There is no climate crisis, no climate emergency, no climate breakdown, no such thing as climate grief and no such thing as climate anxiety.


Apparently they have trained a special police team to handle this lot; so we'll see how that pans out. They think that stopping people going to work will have some effect. That all the people who are inconvenienced trying to behave normally will suddenly ''see the light'' and join their cause. It won't: it will just make people despise them even more than the blood incident yesterday when they find some 83-year-old w***** has glued himself to their train.
By the way, the ''blood'' was organic (don't ya just love it!) beetroot juice.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> climate grief


 What exactly is this?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> What exactly is this?


https://www.yaleclimateconnections....wo-reef-scientists-share-their-climate-grief/

*'This situation brings me to despair': Two reef scientists share their climate grief*


----------



## catz4m8z

samuelsmiles3 said:


> There is no climate crisis, no climate emergency, no climate breakdown,


errr...yes, there is. Just because somebody acts like a lunatic with a fire engine doesnt change the facts Im afraid.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Answered in Climate Change.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellionists queue for a little light lunch at McDonalds after spending the morning telling us not to do this.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellionists queue for a little light lunch at McDonalds after spending the morning telling us not to do this.
> 
> View attachment 418856


LMAO!:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious Thought they'd be tucking in to seaweed and acorn sandwiches . . . no? It really is the sheer hypocrisy which is staggering - and arrogant too.


----------



## catz4m8z

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellionists queue for a little light lunch at McDonalds after spending the morning telling us not to do this.


There are more then a few people on these protests who really dont understand what they are protesting about, no doubt!

Personally I do everything I can (no car, no plane travel, recycle/compost, buy reusable/sustainable/local products where poss, vegan diet +vegan doggos!, practise a more minimalist lifestyle) but I do feel abit guilty that Im not out there complaining more vocally about the destruction of our planet.

Saw an interesting study on Youtube today stating that half the plastic waste in the ocean is actually the byproducts of commercial fishing...something for all the pescatarians to think about!


----------



## Magyarmum

catz4m8z said:


> There are more then a few people on these protests who really dont understand what they are protesting about, no doubt!
> 
> Personally I do everything I can (no car, no plane travel, recycle/compost, buy reusable/sustainable/local products where poss, vegan diet +vegan doggos!, practise a more minimalist lifestyle) but I do feel abit guilty that Im not out there complaining more vocally about the destruction of our planet.
> 
> Saw an interesting study on Youtube today stating that half the plastic waste in the ocean is actually the byproducts of commercial fishing...something for all the pescatarians to think about!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ize-uk-fishing-boats-plundering-fish-british/

*Trawler 14 times the size of UK fishing boats is plundering fish from British waters before Brexit*


----------



## samuelsmiles3

catz4m8z said:


> There are more then a few people on these protests who really dont understand what they are protesting about, no doubt!
> 
> Personally I do everything I can (no car, no plane travel, recycle/compost, buy reusable/sustainable/local products where poss, vegan diet +vegan doggos!, practise a more minimalist lifestyle) but I do feel abit guilty that Im not out there complaining more vocally about the destruction of our planet.
> 
> Saw an interesting study on Youtube today stating that half the plastic waste in the ocean is actually the byproducts of commercial fishing...something for all the pescatarians to think about!


You do take the headlines at face value don't you? If you researched a little deeper (you really don't have to look too far) you'll find some very interesting studies that challenge the alarmist narrative.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ize-uk-fishing-boats-plundering-fish-british/
> 
> *Trawler 14 times the size of UK fishing boats is plundering fish from British waters before Brexit*


 I spotted that too: it's a like a huge fish processing factory.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellionists queue for a little light lunch at McDonalds after spending the morning telling us not to do this.
> 
> View attachment 418856


 Even if they are ordering something vegetarian, one would hardly expect them to be handing money to such an organisation which built its worldwide empire on beef..


----------



## Guest

Is Extinction Rebellion going to acheive anything in shutting down Westminster? 217 of them have already been arrested.


----------



## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> Even if they are ordering something vegetarian, one would hardly expect them to be handing money to such an organisation which built its worldwide empire on beef..


But what a bloody hilarious pic tho … I couldn't stop laughing!!


----------



## mrs phas

saartje said:


> Is Extinction Rebellion going to acheive anything in shutting down Westminster? 217 of them have already been arrested.


Gets them on the telly, so their bosses, parents, grannies, neighbours can all be horrified

Gets them their arrest and (at least)official £90 Fine and warning, that will come up on any enhanced DBS for ever and a day

Gets their photo, fingerprints and DNA on file, so they can be traced in the future

So
basically,
nothing achieved, in their favour, at all


----------



## Guest

mrs phas said:


> Gets them on the telly, so their bosses, parents, grannies, neighbours can all be horrified
> 
> Gets them their arrest and (at least)official £90 Fine and warning, that will come up on any enhanced DBS for ever and a day
> 
> Gets their photo, fingerprints and DNA on file, so they can be traced in the future
> 
> So
> basically,
> nothing achieved, in their favour, at all


Sorry what is enhanced DBS?


----------



## mrs phas

saartje said:


> Sorry what is enhanced DBS?


Its what used to be called crb checks (criminal records bureau)
An enhanced dbs (disclosure and barring service) is needed to work with what would be classed as vulnerable citizens
Jobs such as
police,
nurses,
drs, 
Teachers, 
teaching assistants,
foster carers, 
Adopters
Employed carers
And many more
Dodgy DBS, no job


----------



## Guest

mrs phas said:


> Its what used to be called crb checks (criminal records bureau)
> An enhanced dbs (disclosure and barring service) is needed to work with what would be classed as vulnerable citizens
> Jobs such as
> police,
> nurses,
> drs,
> Teachers,
> teaching assistants,
> foster carers,
> Adopters
> Employed carers
> And many more
> Dodgy DBS, no job


Thank you for explaining this as I did not know what this is.


----------



## catz4m8z

samuelsmiles3 said:


> You do take the headlines at face value don't you? If you researched a little deeper (you really don't have to look too far) you'll find some very interesting studies that challenge the alarmist narrative.


oh please! If I listened to the headlines Id be denying there was any problem with the climate at all....and probably blaming everything on Brexit!
:Hilarious


----------



## lullabydream

mrs phas said:


> Dodgy DBS, no job


Not necessarily, depends on the offence and at the employers descretion. Usually as long as it is totally irrelevant to the role, does not usually include fraud certain faux pas can be overlooked.
You have usually notified employer before hand anyway as its used asked in roles involving vulnerable people before a DBS is taken.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

It's a "peaceful demonstration" but our self righteousness entitles us to desecrate historical treasures. Arseholes.


----------



## lullabydream

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's a "peaceful demonstration" but our self righteousness entitles us to desecrate historical treasures.
> View attachment 418880


Why, just why!


----------



## mrs phas

lullabydream said:


> Not necessarily, depends on the offence and at the employers descretion. Usually as long as it is totally irrelevant to the role, does not usually include fraud certain faux pas can be overlooked.
> You have usually notified employer before hand anyway as its used asked in roles involving vulnerable people before a DBS is taken.


i was generalising


----------



## mrs phas

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's a "peaceful demonstration" but our self righteousness entitles us to desecrate historical treasures. Arseholes.
> View attachment 418880


if i had ANY sympathies with them, that has sent it flying right out the window


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> if i had ANY sympathies with them, that has sent it flying right out the window


Same! :Rage

That's for real?


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Same! :Rage
> 
> That's for real?


apparently its made from cloth,
but even so
they walked on the monument, tracking all sorts over it on their shoes,
who knows what was used on the cloth to dye it
they disturbed the chalk, that was only replenished in august, and had not had time to completely settle, and now wont before winter, allowing rain and ice to get under it and damage it. we know how the rain and freeze cycle can destroy our roads, via making hairline cracks and then expanding them
there is simply no excuse for this wanton vandalism


----------



## Elles




----------



## Rafa

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's a "peaceful demonstration" but our self righteousness entitles us to desecrate historical treasures. Arseholes.
> View attachment 418880


Disgraceful.

So, if you care about the Planet, you can behave like a moronic hooligan?

Guaranteed to get people on your side.


----------



## westie~ma

Said on the news disruption for next 13 days 
Do we know what they have planned?

Have a trip planned into town this week :Bag


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> 217 of them have already been arrested


 One of them said they were expecting a turnout of 30,000 (??) so that ''as some were arrested, there would be many more to replace them''.


----------



## Calvine

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/07/exti...g-world-famous-white-horse-monument-10876011/
Seriously: what was the point in this? What does it prove and how does it help?


----------



## Calvine

westie~ma said:


> Have a trip planned into town this week :Bag


Rang my dentist in central London and apologised for cancelling an appointment next week (even tho' it's not that close, never know if tubes might be affected). She said; ''You're the third today, don't worry''.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's the only way to make point they will have to listen to, the planet is dying and the government and big business doesn't care enough, unless we let them know how we feel it will be to late to save the planet as we know it.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Happy Paws2 said:


> It's the only way to make point they will have to listen to,* the planet is dying* and the government and big business doesn't care enough, unless we let them know how we feel it will be to late to save the planet as we know it.


The World Will End Tomorrow, Just Like It Did in the Year 365

"Hilary [of Poitiers] wrote a series of treatises, one of which proclaimed the world would end in the year of 365. When it didn't one of his students, Saint Martin of Tours, pushed the date back to 400. It didn't end then either. Hipplytus changed the date to 500. The German emperor Otto III later changed it to 968, and finally to Good Friday of 992. All of them got it wrong"


----------



## Elles

In the story of the boy who cried wolf, the wolf did eventually turn up.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> The World Will End Tomorrow, Just Like It Did in the Year 365
> 
> "Hilary [of Poitiers] wrote a series of treatises, one of which proclaimed the world would end in the year of 365. When it didn't one of his students, Saint Martin of Tours, pushed the date back to 400. It didn't end then either. Hipplytus changed the date to 500. The German emperor Otto III later changed it to 968, and finally to Good Friday of 992. All of them got it wrong"


And then there was the horse manure crisis:
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> And then there was the horse manure crisis:
> https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/


the average life expectancy of a working horse was around 3 years? Wow.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> the average life expectancy of a working horse was around 3 years? Wow.


 So sad . . . they would literally ''drop dead in harness'' poor creatures.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellionists queue for a little light lunch at McDonalds after spending the morning telling us not to do this.
> 
> View attachment 418856


 But their mates are closing the meat market! (A vegan offshoot I believe of ER.)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...lion-protests-london-westminster-latest-news/


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> In the story of the boy who cried wolf, the wolf did eventually turn up.


But that was a fable. This is quite, quite different.


----------



## ForestWomble

Maybe it's like weather reports for snow, say it often enough they'll get it right one day.


----------



## Calvine

ForestWomble said:


> Maybe it's like weather reports for snow, say it often enough they'll get it right one day.


Haha! Whenever they say ''50% chance of rain'', I tell myself I could have said the same.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Calvine said:


> And then there was the horse manure crisis:
> https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/


_"This problem came to a head when in 1894, The Times newspaper predicted… "In 50 years, every street in London will be buried under nine feet of manure."_

Haha - Maybe if the motor car hadn't been invented, London _would_ now be buried under 9 feet of manure. Technology saved the day.

If Extinction Rebellion gets its way ( net zero emissions by 2025) we will be back to the horse and cart and facing the horse manure crisis once again.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Earth has limited resources and population is growing.

Heavily guarded enclaves for the rich and then the rest... not really needed.

The news, the media are already bought and fake news, lying leaders thought clever, smart and totally acceptable.

I can’t imagine a president of USA blackmailing another president to dish dirt on his political rival and staying in power.

I can’t imagine any PM in the past to dissolve Parliament because they happen not to agree with Government, not mention lying to the Queen.

Democracy is in crisis in many countries not just those two.

We spent more time on our gadgets than with people.

To care for our planet we should be united.

I wish people turned their back on established parties and elected Green.

With Tories being the worst option.

Trump, their best friend loudly denies the climate change.

They don’t care about fracking or deforestation.

Simply just don’t care.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion supporter, Chris Packham, has just been on the radio (again) telling us all that we must reduce our 'carbon footprint'.

He's recently returned from Kenya with other rich people able to afford his safari and tuition fees. I'm not rich so wasn't able to join them, unfortunately.

How do these people have the absolute gall to continually preach to us about the 'climate crisis' and yet do the complete opposite.

These people are not honest. 

Stunning Kenya Bird Photography Safari


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> Even if they are ordering something vegetarian, one would hardly expect them to be handing money to such an organisation which built its worldwide empire on beef..


Or at least put the flag down first


----------



## samuelsmiles3

After months of giving them the red carpet treatment, dancing with them and skateboarding with them, the police have decided to act. Good. Now the hard working and _honest_ people can go about their days without hindrance.


----------



## catz4m8z

TBF Im sure the planet will be fine.....give it a few million years without us and it will probably be supporting some sort of life happily (barring asteroids and black holes!).:Woot
So really we are only destroying the surface layer!:Smug

where we live.....:Bored


boy, people are dumb.....


----------



## Guest

Extinction Rebellion Protesters are also active here in Amsterdam:-
*
Extinction Rebellion Protesters Glue Themselves To Door Of Bank*

Environmental protesters Extinction Rebellion have targeted a branch of ABN Amro bank in the Zuidas business district of Amsterdam in a follow-up to yesterday's blockade of the Stadhouderskade. Seven of the protesters are said to have glued themselves to the door of the building and police have been called in to keep an eye on the situation, broadcaster NOS reported. The demonstrators also plan to put up tents and a podium in the capital's Vondelpark. 'We are expecting the go-ahead for this from the mayor's office,' a spokesperson for the group told the broadcaster. Extinction Rebellion, an international movement which is currently organising demonstrations in over 60 cities worldwide is planning other 'decentralised' actions in government buildings and companies which have participated in the climate accord. It is not known which buildings will be targeted, NOS said. Rijksmuseum Police arrested some 90 activists yesterday near the Rijksmuseum. Mayor Femke Halsema had banned the protest because the Stadhouderskade is an emergency route which has to be kept clear for ambulances and other response vehicles. All have been released and some were fined. The activists commented they were 'pissed off' with the police for keeping them in a holding cell for longer than the legal limit. They also claim jerrycans filled with drinking water were kicked over on purpose. A police spokesperson confirmed to the broadcaster that some of the activists had been held for longer than the prescribed maximum of six hours.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...n-protesters-glue-themselves-to-door-of-bank/


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## samuelsmiles3

saartje said:


> Extinction Rebellion Protesters are also active here in Amsterdam:-
> *
> Extinction Rebellion Protesters Glue Themselves To Door Of Bank*
> 
> Environmental protesters Extinction Rebellion have targeted a branch of ABN Amro bank in the Zuidas business district of Amsterdam in a follow-up to yesterday's blockade of the Stadhouderskade. Seven of the protesters are said to have glued themselves to the door of the building and police have been called in to keep an eye on the situation, broadcaster NOS reported. The demonstrators also plan to put up tents and a podium in the capital's Vondelpark. 'We are expecting the go-ahead for this from the mayor's office,' a spokesperson for the group told the broadcaster. Extinction Rebellion, an international movement which is currently organising demonstrations in over 60 cities worldwide is planning other 'decentralised' actions in government buildings and companies which have participated in the climate accord. It is not known which buildings will be targeted, NOS said. Rijksmuseum Police arrested some 90 activists yesterday near the Rijksmuseum. Mayor Femke Halsema had banned the protest because the Stadhouderskade is an emergency route which has to be kept clear for ambulances and other response vehicles. All have been released and some were fined. The activists commented they were 'pissed off' with the police for keeping them in a holding cell for longer than the legal limit. They also claim jerrycans filled with drinking water were kicked over on purpose. A police spokesperson confirmed to the broadcaster that some of the activists had been held for longer than the prescribed maximum of six hours.
> 
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...n-protesters-glue-themselves-to-door-of-bank/


They are a strange lot, aren't they? This one glued her tits to the pavement in our April Uprising.


----------



## Guest

It is them who are going to suffer glueing themselves to things. Surely it must hurt when the police and medics try to unglue them. Why self harm yourself over this?

I agree they are a strange lot.


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## mrs phas

catz4m8z said:


> TBF Im sure the planet will be fine.....give it a few million years without us and it will probably be supporting some sort of life happily (barring asteroids and black holes!).


with no people to keep the nuclear power stations and reactors etc under control, bang, literally, goes the whole planet, fauna and flora
with no one to contain toxic run off from the crumbling ruins of paint factories, petrol stations, fuel plants, cars, lorries underground storage facilities, then the whole planet is poisoned, fauna and flora
with no one to inoculate animals against common viruses, worms, lice, etc the animals would die, before they evolved or, actually, de evolved, which no fauna or flora has, yet, shown an ability to do

get the gist?



> boy, people are dumb.....


yep, i can only agree


----------



## Elles

They are going a bit overboard. What are they hoping to gain? They don’t want to give up their mod cons any more than the rest of us and don’t seem to support any actual action, scientific progress, or innovation.

When people marched to ban foxhunting they had an achievable aim, these people have got weirder and more extreme with no end game I can see.

The first demonstrations seem to involve a lot of ordinary people who wanted governments to pay attention and make cleaning up more of a priority than it was. These guys just seem on another planet already.

Nuclear power could be the clean power we need.


----------



## mrs phas

samuelsmiles3 said:


> They are a strange lot, aren't they? This one glued her tits to the pavement in our April Uprising.
> 
> View attachment 418959


at least Erika Roe had the gumption to show hers to everybody, including the millions on tv


----------



## Guest

How did the protesters get to these events? Train, public transport and cars, some have even flown in planes to these events. Makes you wonder if they are so concerned why they didn't walk or use a bike.


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> at least Erika Roe had the gumption to show hers to everybody, including the millions on tv


lol, she went viral before there was a viral :Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles3

mrs phas said:


> with no people to keep the nuclear power stations and reactors etc under control, bang, literally, goes the whole planet, fauna and flora
> with no one to contain toxic run off from the crumbling ruins of paint factories, petrol stations, fuel plants, cars, lorries underground storage facilities, then the whole planet is poisoned, fauna and flora
> with no one to inoculate animals against common viruses, worms, lice, etc the animals would die, before they evolved or, actually, de evolved, which no fauna or flora has, yet, shown an ability to do
> 
> get the gist?
> 
> yep, i can only agree


It's really interesting to see what has happened at Chernobyl 30 years after the reactor meltdown disaster. It's an Extinction Rebellion protestor's paradise. The wildlife thriving, but without the humans.

Animals Rule Chernobyl Three Decades After Nuclear Disaster


----------



## Elles

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's really interesting to see what has happened at Chernobyl 30 years after the reactor meltdown disaster. It's an Extinction Rebellion protestor's paradise. The wildlife thriving, but without the humans.
> 
> Animals Rule Chernobyl Three Decades After Nuclear Disaster


Chernobyl is one of the reasons people shudder when nuclear power is mentioned and why research into alternative nuclear power is so controversial. 

If we would look beyond it and at the new science, we might not be so concerned.


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## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> Chernobyl is one of the reasons people shudder when nuclear power is mentioned and why research into alternative nuclear power is so controversial.
> 
> If we would look beyond it and at the new science, we might not be so concerned.


And Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

If nuclear energy had just been discovered today we would be hailing it as the energy to save the planet.


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## margy

I'm sure I read some where on the news that scientists have said climate change isn't man made. If that is so shouldn't we be thinking of solutions to the problem,? We can't change it so we have to find a way of surviving it.


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## mrs phas

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's really interesting to see what has happened at Chernobyl 30 years after the reactor meltdown disaster. It's an Extinction Rebellion protestor's paradise. The wildlife thriving, but without the humans.
> 
> Animals Rule Chernobyl Three Decades After Nuclear Disaster





Elles said:


> Chernobyl is one of the reasons people shudder when nuclear power is mentioned and why research into alternative nuclear power is so controversial.
> 
> If we would look beyond it and at the new science, we might not be so concerned.


however, its because humans are still around, to contain the cores themselves, that they havent boiled all the water away and given us the next big bang



samuelsmiles3 said:


> If nuclear energy had just been discovered today we would be hailing it as the energy to save the planet.


totally agree
I think a lot of the bad press it gets, is because it was first used as a weapon, against mankind
if it had been marketed as a clean replacement fuel in the first place, then it would be highly unlikely to have all the bad press it does


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## Elles

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were hit by bombs. 

Nuclear power stations were built after the Second World War. Chernobyl was a power station, which is why it’s more relevant I think. An accident in a nuclear power station, the effects of which were felt world wide, was what put the kybosh on nuclear at the time and probably rightly so, given the risk and waste.

However, that shouldn’t mean there is no longer research into safe nuclear power, that doesn’t lead to radioactive waste being dumped to surface a few years down the line. Mention nuclear power though and I think people think 3 eyed fish on the Simpsons and the Chernobyl disaster. 

It could be that it was good it happened when it did and not when the planet was covered in nuclear reactors that were at risk from human error and churning out waste until we all glowed green and not just Greenland.

I think there’s little doubt that we are a factor when it comes to climate change, but even if there is doubt, we need to clean up for our own sake if nothing else.


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## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> Hiroshima and Nagasaki were hit by bombs.
> 
> Nuclear power stations were built after the Second World War. Chernobyl was a power station, which is why it's more relevant I think. An accident in a nuclear power station, the effects of which were felt world wide, was what put the kybosh on nuclear at the time and probably rightly so, given the risk and waste.
> 
> However, that shouldn't mean there is no longer research into safe nuclear power, that doesn't lead to radioactive waste being dumped to surface a few years down the line. Mention nuclear power though and I think people think 3 eyed fish on the Simpsons and the Chernobyl disaster.
> 
> It could be that it was good it happened when it did and not when the planet was covered in nuclear reactors that were at risk from human error and churning out waste until we all glowed green and not just Greenland.
> 
> I think there's little doubt that we are a factor when it comes to climate change, but even if there is doubt, we need to clean up for our own sake if nothing else.


Yes, I know they were bombs. 'Nuclear' bombs. People assume, because it's 'nuclear' it's bad - by association.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

margy said:


> I'm sure I read some where on the news that scientists have said climate change isn't man made. If that is so shouldn't we be thinking of solutions to the problem,? We can't change it so we have to find a way of surviving it.


Paul R Ehrlich, author of 'The Population Bomb' would disagree with you, although his dates for catastrophe do keep being updated. He predicted "hundreds of millions" of people would die by the 1980's. Catastrophists are strange.

He has just co written a new book, Jaws.

_"A shattering collapse of civilisation is a "near certainty" in the next few decades due to humanity's continuing destruction of the natural world that sustains all life on Earth"_


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## stuaz

mrs phas said:


> with no people to keep the nuclear power stations and reactors etc under control, bang, literally, goes the whole planet, fauna and flora
> with no one to contain toxic run off from the crumbling ruins of paint factories, petrol stations, fuel plants, cars, lorries underground storage facilities, then the whole planet is poisoned, fauna and flora
> with no one to inoculate animals against common viruses, worms, lice, etc the animals would die, before they evolved or, actually, de evolved, which no fauna or flora has, yet, shown an ability to do
> 
> get the gist?


"Life, Uh, Finds a Way" - Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park.


----------



## mrs phas

stuaz said:


> "Life finds a way" - Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park.


Off quoted
But, despite that
Still fictional prose


----------



## stuaz

mrs phas said:


> Off quoted
> But, despite that
> Still fictional prose


Corrected it for you!


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Or at least put the flag down first


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious It was the flag that did it for me too. They are just too daft to think of that. At least that particular little posse of the ER gang have given us a laugh!


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> After months of giving them the red carpet treatment, dancing with them and skateboarding with them, the police have decided to act. Good. Now the hard working and _honest_ people can go about their days without hindrance.
> View attachment 418952


 I read that they were refusing to comply and that being ''arrested'' is like they got promoted; they love it, it's a feather in their hats (albeit a vegan feather).


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> After months of giving them the red carpet treatment,


 You know, this is what occurred to me too; the police have not given such ''softly, softly'' treatment to certain other protesters - in fact I'm sure they had to pay hunt sabs a fair bit of compo more than once. ER are trying to stop people getting to work, whereas the hunt sabs were trying to stop animals being killed.


----------



## Happy Paws2

samuelsmiles3 said:


> The World Will End Tomorrow, Just Like It Did in the Year 365
> 
> "Hilary [of Poitiers] wrote a series of treatises, one of which proclaimed the world would end in the year of 365. When it didn't one of his students, Saint Martin of Tours, pushed the date back to 400. It didn't end then either. Hipplytus changed the date to 500. The German emperor Otto III later changed it to 968, and finally to Good Friday of 992. All of them got it wrong"


But we have proof, we are choking the sea with plastic, our air with chemicals and burning our great forests.


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## Cleo38

I don't disagree with protests, I don't disagree that at times disruption & civil disobedience is the only way to actually get recognition … I understand all that but I don't understand that some of the actions seem to go against their ideology. 

I don't get how some of the people, attending can be so passionate then go to McD's or be buying food/drink supplies from takeaways or disrupting public transport or leaving so much litter. I understand that certain elements of the media will have their own bases to portray the protestors in whatever light suits them but I honestly think the people involved could be a lot more with inventive their tactics … but then some of the people involved (especially celebs!) I find instantly get my back up as I am amazed at their sheer hypocrisy & self belief tin telling us peasants how to live whilst their carbon footprints are so big through their jet set lifestyles


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## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> some of the actions seem to go against their ideology.


 Yes, totally agree: it's as if they don't know what they are protesting about (which many of them likely don't).


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## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> telling us peasants how to live whilst their carbon footprints are so big through their jet set lifestyles


I keep expecting Harry and Meghan to join them!


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## samuelsmiles3

If they were demanding a debate I'd be right behind them. Sadly they are just making demands. 

Our Demands


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## Guest

Rijks Museum Amsterdam

























Then here are some of the scenes around Amsterdam.










































So far yesterday 90 arrests and everyone fined for public order offences after spending 6 hours in politie custody.


















It is an absolute nightmare trying to get to and from work over the last few days in Centraal Amsterdam.


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## Siskin

Have they demonstrated in China or Russia?


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## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> with no people to keep the nuclear power stations and reactors etc under control, bang, literally, goes the whole planet, fauna and flora


Um, nope. Automatic failsafe controls on reactors kill the fission reaction in about 5 seconds. Emergency shutdown (SCRAM) systems are gravity powered, too, so loss of external power power isn't going to prevent shutdown. After that, getting it started again is a not the easiest of processes, and sure as heck won't be happening accidentally.



mrs phas said:


> with no one to contain toxic run off from the crumbling ruins of paint factories, petrol stations, fuel plants, cars, lorries underground storage facilities, then the whole planet is poisoned, fauna and flora


On the other hand, the far greater pollution levels caused by the continued production of such things will be no more.



mrs phas said:


> with no one to inoculate animals against common viruses, worms, lice, etc the animals would die, before they evolved or, actually, de evolved, which no fauna or flora has, yet, shown an ability to do


We've only _had _vaccines for a couple of centuries, and wildlife survived (and, in the vast majority of cases, still does) without them. Formerly domesticated animals would have a harder time of it, true, but it would all balance out eventually.


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## Pawscrossed

I haven’t see any evidence of protestors using takeaways or plastic. I have two people staying with me and they aren’t. Most people I have talked to traveled by public transport. Curious as to where or who is being hypocritical as I’m happy to pass it on, please do share.


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## Siskin

Pawscrossed said:


> I haven't see any evidence of protestors using takeaways or plastic. I have two people staying with me and they aren't. Most people I have talked to traveled by public transport. Curious as to where or who is being hypocritical as I'm happy to pass it on, please do share.


You can ask them this then. Have they demonstrated in China or Russia, if not do they plan to. If not why not as China in particular is building coal fired power stations at a rate of knots and the pollution is terrible there.


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## Summercat

Siskin said:


> You can ask them this then. Have they demonstrated in China or Russia, if not do they plan to. If not why not as China in particular is building coal fired power stations at a rate of knots and the pollution is terrible there.


I would imagine the carbon footprint to get everyone to say China would be huge. I would also imagine the Chinese would not tolerate them. 
I suppose one must work within their means.
Just because say China is worse, does not mean for example, building on green spaces in the UK is fine or Trump over turning environmental regulations in the US is fine.
I am not sure what the protestors are doing will have an effect nor that it is a particularly good way to go about creating change. 
But I do feel the Earth and it's remaining natural habitats and wildlife can use some help.
Planting one million uniform trees does not recreate an eco system of old growth diverse forests. Once gone they are gone.
The carbon offsetting of certain celebrities is mere window dressing. 
Gluing oneself to a building will not help.
Overall things look pretty grim.


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## Magyarmum

I don't know whether anyone else has seen this on Nat Geo. It's absolutely fascinating!






*"Talking Trees" by National Geographic*

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-trees-180968084/

*Do Trees Talk to Each Other?*


----------



## Siskin

Summercat said:


> I would imagine the carbon footprint to get everyone to say China would be huge. I would also imagine the Chinese would not tolerate them.
> I suppose one must work within their means.
> Just because say China is worse, does not mean for example, building on green spaces in the UK is fine or Trump over turning environmental regulations in the US is fine.
> I am not sure what the protestors are doing will have an effect nor that it is a particularly good way to go about creating change.
> But I do feel the Earth and it's remaining natural habitats and wildlife can use some help.
> Planting one million uniform trees does not recreate an eco system of old growth diverse forests. Once gone they are gone.
> The carbon offsetting of certain celebrities is mere window dressing.
> Gluing oneself to a building will not help.
> Overall things look pretty grim.


But nagging the uk to death over climate change when at the very least the uk is trying to do many things to halt harmful emmissions and waste is just going to make ordinary people more and more angry over the protestors and not sympathise or try and help. I agree with not building on open green spaces but due to changes in social movement and habits such as more people choosing to live in the uk and live alone, apparently there is a huge housing need and these have to be built somewhere. I hate to see house after house being built on farming land in particular, but I can't see that stopping any time soon.
There are many other countries that are far more wasteful and polluting then the uk but because there laws do not allow demonstrations or the likelyhood of being chucked into prison and forgotten about means no one protests or demonstrates there. Instead they go for the easy soft targets and annoy the hell out of ordinary people.

Celebrities joining in is just virtual signaling quite honestly.
Apparently young trees are more efficient at turning co2 into oxygen then old trees, so planting trees has a helpful effect on the atmosphere.

Giving up totally all smart phones and electronic devices would help the world a lot as it is very polluting to make them. I dare say many of the demonstrators have mobiles and not the old fashioned only make a phone call types either.


----------



## Jesthar

Siskin said:


> Celebrities joining in is just virtual signaling quite honestly


Now this is a thought I struggle with. OK, you are always going to get some who jump on a bandwagon, but surely it's not fair to tar them all with the same brush?

Yes, it's very easy to say "they don't really care or they wouldn't do X" (I honestly saw a FB post only this morning calling John Lennon a hypocrite for composing 'Imagine' on an expensive piano!), but it's rare to see suggestions of what would be considered acceptable behavious that are also workable for the people being targetted.


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## mrs phas

Jesthar said:


> Yes, it's very easy to say "they don't really care or they wouldn't do X" (I honestly saw a FB post only this morning calling John Lennon a hypocrite for composing 'Imagine' on an expensive piano!),


Not forgetting the ivory used in its manufacturer


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## Beth78

Siskin said:


> You can ask them this then. Have they demonstrated in China or Russia, if not do they plan to. If not why not as China in particular is building coal fired power stations at a rate of knots and the pollution is terrible there.


I think China is abit pre occupied at the moment.
And protesting in Russia is just plain dangerous.


----------



## Siskin

Beth78 said:


> I think China is abit pre occupied at the moment.
> And protesting in Russia is just plain dangerous.


Quite. This is the point I was making. It's so easy to demonstrate in a country like ours because you can get away with all sorts. I cannot imagine what it is like for the Londoners trying to get on with their worklives only to have this lot stopping them getting to work. My daughter and her fiancé both live and work in central London and have had problems this week getting to work on time. Luckily they are quite high up in their organisations and have sympathetic bosses, but not everyone has that luxury and there are some who may find they don't have a job anymore. How is that fair.

Oh it's so nice and simple for the demonstrators, they have either taken holiday off work or don't work. They can prance about getting in the way and the police do nothing about that, they can generally have a bit of fun. But ask them to go to a country where they might run in to trouble then they all vanish without a trace.

I have sympathy for what they are standing for. I hate the way resources are wasted, always have, and try to keep our carbon footprint down to a dull roar. We have spent over 4 months living in our static which is not connected to the power. We use solar panels and batteries for our power. It teaches you a hell of a lot about being very careful with power usage, not using it as much as possible is our general ethos.


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## Beth78

Siskin said:


> But ask them to go to a country where they might run in to trouble then they all vanish without a trace.


Not sure protesting in these places would do any good anyway.
At least in this country there is a chance.
They have the good sense not to protest in these countries, if they did they really would disappear without a trace. 
People are rightfully panicking about the environmental issues and they feel this is all they can do I suppose.


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## kimthecat

The more bizarre they act , the more attention and publicity they get. 
Im not against demonstrating but the more it goes on , the more they are wasting police resources. 
The cost of policing could be put to better use. Kids are being stabbed to death in London , they need not just more police but more money spent on youth groups and stopping gang culture. 

All the countries need to do much more. 

When I was young , the ozone layer problem was a big thing . I stopped using deodorant sprays etc .


----------



## HarlequinCat

Beth78 said:


> Not sure protesting in these places would do any good anyway.
> At least in this country there is a chance.
> They have the good sense not to protest in these countries, if they did they really would disappear without a trace.
> People are rightfully panicking about the environmental issues and they feel this is all they can do I suppose.


But China as well as India are one of the main polluters. If you can get them to take more care with the environment it would do so much more good. 
The worst polluters are China, USA, India, Russia and Japan. These are the countries that need the most help in changing how they do things.

I feel for the ones in London trying to get to a hospital. Or, as already said, trying to get to and from work. These people are just disrupting normal people.


----------



## Siskin

Beth78 said:


> Not sure protesting in these places would do any good anyway.
> At least in this country there is a chance.
> They have the good sense not to protest in these countries, if they did they really would disappear without a trace.
> People are rightfully panicking about the environmental issues and they feel this is all they can do I suppose.


Maybe so, but by annoying ordinary folk going about their lives they will just find they are resented and ignored. Causing such anger amongst others in a country where there would normally be a lot of support for this cause will not help at all., especially when there are certain other countries who cause a lot of pollution continue without a care.


----------



## Beth78

HarlequinCat said:


> I feel for the ones in London trying to get to a hospital. Or, as already said, trying to get to and from work. These people are just disrupting normal people.


Yes it must be extremely frustrating, I'm glad I don't live in london anymore.
The more publicity they get the more will join and protest.
I do think they are trying to do all they can to change our future though.


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## samuelsmiles3

"Two generations of civilisation left before we all............"

Or something.


----------



## MollySmith

At least they are doing something and it’s putting an undeniable emergency in the news, which beats picking holes like this thread. Something has to change and sometimes it gets worse in the short term. Though my brother who lives and works in London with his g/f said no trouble for them and was disappointed not to have been interviewed by the Sun et al

And if politicians and world leaders engaged in some real action not more overpriced think tanks then there would be a reason to not protest, to not disrupt and not draw on police resources. No protestor surely wants to be in London or anywhere, but would rather live in world that has a future.


----------



## MollySmith

Interestingly searches on how to tackle the climate emergency have increased 7 times since XR started the protest which means that people are becoming aware of that 97% of global scientists are warning that human activity is to blame. This is a good thing. Btw, the Russian Embassy queried the protestors being arrested saying they had a democratic right to protest. Strange times.


----------



## mrs phas

soylent green- means people can eat a plant based diet AND have meatshakes, and, stops land being used for burials, or, the air being polluted by cremation ash
all babies to be steralised at birth - until either the himan race dies out or it becomes a more manageable size of population, takes away the choice and denies anyone the chance of 'cheating' by promising to get it done at a later date ( lets face it, the chnese proved one child limit doesnt work on a voluntary basis)
all farmers and abbatoir workers to be housed, forever more, in the conditions that they house their products in

sounds ridiculous? apart from the soylent green - all stories that ive seen or read over the past few months


----------



## MollySmith

On being red rebel by one

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/news/communion-with-the-red-rebels-9085620/


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> At least they are doing something and it's putting an undeniable emergency in the news, which beats picking holes like this thread. Something has to change and sometimes it gets worse in the short term. Though my brother who lives and works in London with his g/f said no trouble for them and was disappointed not to have been interviewed by the Sun et al
> 
> And if politicians and world leaders engaged in some real action not more overpriced think tanks then there would be a reason to not protest, to not disrupt and not draw on police resources. No protestor surely wants to be in London or anywhere, but would rather live in world that has a future.


But are they really though? Granted, I haven't been there so my opinions will be formed based on the portrayal of the protest by the media which will obviously be biased.

As I said previously I am not against protests but this doesn't seem to have been well thought out at all. I don't have the answers but it always seems that ordinary people are targeted & their lives disrupted. Why not target those who directly have influence such as those in government?

Years ago there was those ridiculous Live Earth concerts that were supposed to be raising awareness (& funds) yet created a huge carbon footprint & generated so much waste …. at the time watching the celebs turn up in the private jets then being ferried around in huge limo type cars it reminded me of a satirical sketch yet it was real. I honestly wonder just what they achieved from this …. apart from self promotion of the people involved


----------



## samuelsmiles3




----------



## samuelsmiles3

Zion Lights is an activist, an XR spokeswoman and an environmental '*communicator*'.


----------



## Calvine

[


kimthecat said:


> the more they are wasting police resources.


 Yep: all the police overtime paid for by the poor sods trying to get to work (most of whom could not just take a couple of weeks off to fart around like this). How is it helping the ''cause'' which they maintain they support?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> All the countries need to do much more.


 UK is actually one of the better ones who take it seriously - demonstrations of this sort would not be allowed in China - see what's happening with the Hong Kong protests for another reason. I have quoted from the _Guardian_ so that a certain member does not complain about the right wing views of the_ Telegraph_.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...violence-anti-government-human-rights-amnesty
They should think themselves lucky they don't live in Hong Kong.


----------



## mrs phas

First Emma Thompson flies 1000s of miles, 'never cattle class darling'
To join a protest about all this bad stuff we are doing to make the earth rotate to an early extinction
And now
Benedict Cumberbatch joins in, whilst happily being paid to promote gas guzzling MG's in India, one of the countries to contribute the most damage towards the, alleged, extinction event, that is almost upon us

Hypocritical bandwagon jumpers at their worst


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> First Emma Thompson flies 1000s of miles to join a protest about this we are doing to make the earth rotate to an early extinction
> And now
> Benedict Cumberbatch joins in, whilst happily being paid to promote gas guzzling MG's in India, one of the countries to contribute the most damage towards the, alleged, extinction event, that is almost upon us
> 
> Hypocritical bandwagon jumpers at their worst


 You beat me to it! I so dislike this guy, like so many of them, he is such a hypocrite: you may recall he was going to take in Syrian refugees but didn't as his wife gave birth. Wasn't he the one who shouted ''F*** the politicians'' after doing Hamlet at the Barbican? I guess Lily Allen will be the next (unless she is already there). Didn't know about the MG's tho'.


----------



## mrs phas

Calvine said:


> I guess Lily Allen will be the next (unless she is already there).


Im surprised she hasn't been out there offering to breast feed the little ones whilst the mums glue their boobs to the pavement!
Remember, in their world, there's no such thing as bad publicity, and, the sun rotates around them


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Im surprised she hasn't been out there offering to breast feed the little ones whilst the mums glue their boobs to the pavement!
> Remember, in their world, there's no such thing as bad publicity, and, the sun rotates around them


 I remember pictures of the drama queen blubbing in Calais. Another who was going to open her home to a few migrants but never did.


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> But are they really though? Granted, I haven't been there so my opinions will be formed based on the portrayal of the protest by the media which will obviously be biased.
> 
> As I said previously I am not against protests but this doesn't seem to have been well thought out at all. I don't have the answers but it always seems that ordinary people are targeted & their lives disrupted. Why not target those who directly have influence such as those in government?
> 
> Years ago there was those ridiculous Live Earth concerts that were supposed to be raising awareness (& funds) yet created a huge carbon footprint & generated so much waste …. at the time watching the celebs turn up in the private jets then being ferried around in huge limo type cars it reminded me of a satirical sketch yet it was real. I honestly wonder just what they achieved from this …. apart from self promotion of the people involved


When I was a kid, I was terrified of nuclear war. On the odd times I ventured into the city on the bus, I saw CND posters. Listened to Frankie Goes to Hollywood Two Tribes (not actually allowed to!), I read the booklet on what to do in the event of an attack and saw the Raymond Briggs 'When The Wind Blows' and worried about my pets. I was scared about my parents not worrying enough. I got so upset about it.

I've since seen all my great grandparents die, my grandparents too apart from my gran who is dying as I write. I know I'll die of something... I've been suicidal in the past and dementia caught some of family, so has cancer. I doubt it'll be the planet but I know how scary being a kid is and for that reason I support the children. I support XR because if it makes one person think... oh yeah, can I do that better, more sustainably then good. But for every possible affirmative there is a slayer, like @samuelsmiles3 There will always be someone who thinks it's great to sit in the garden in 36 degrees and is too scared of the science. I'm scared of the climate change and actually scared to know too much, because it is frightening.

But, for me, it's incredibly disappointing to see something so many scientists agree on being so diversive and for another thread to seem to be divided into two camps of denial or wholeheartedly in agreement when compromise is a good thing - as also seen on the climate change thread. Truthfully I think taking a bamboo cup to a local coffee shop for fairtrade coffee isn't enough, a bit pointless. We all need to make huge life changes but when the current PM's jollies are funded by a climate skeptics group, I imagine taking to the streets is about the only answer because Brexit is so big, it's dominated the news when climate change probably should have.

That said, I'm not protesting. I understand it, appreciate what they are doing but I would rather see attainable goals for all of us, something that brings us together, something that doesn't turn meat eaters against vegans, @samuelsmiles3 against @noushka05, I don't know what that is yet but I'm starting by educating myself on better lifestyle choices.

I don't know about celebs, they don't turn up to any marches in Cambridge, just ordinary folk who care a lot, who do walk, take public transport (frankly very brave round these parts) or cycle. I have absolutely zero interest in showbiz and pop culture. I couldn't tell a Kardashian from Towie to be fair! I don't think many of those I know who are protesting with XR would either or endorse the personal actions of a celeb.


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> When I was a kid, I was terrified of nuclear war. On the odd times I ventured into the city on the bus, I saw CND posters. Listened to Frankie Goes to Hollywood Two Tribes (not actually allowed to!), I read the booklet on what to do in the event of an attack and saw the Raymond Briggs 'When The Wind Blows' and worried about my pets. I was scared about my parents not worrying enough. I got so upset about it.
> 
> I've since seen all my great grandparents die, my grandparents too apart from my gran who is dying as I write. I know I'll die of something... I've been suicidal in the past and dementia caught some of family, so has cancer. I doubt it'll be the planet but I know how scary being a kid is and for that reason I support the children. I support XR because if it makes one person think... oh yeah, can I do that better, more sustainably then good. But for every possible affirmative there is a slayer, like @samuelsmiles3 There will always be someone who thinks it's great to sit in the garden in 36 degrees and is too scared of the science. I'm scared of the climate change and actually scared to know too much, because it is frightening.
> 
> But, for me, it's incredibly disappointing to see something so many scientists agree on being so diversive and for another thread to seem to be divided into two camps of denial or wholeheartedly in agreement when compromise is a good thing - as also seen on the climate change thread. Truthfully I think taking a bamboo cup to a local coffee shop for fairtrade coffee isn't enough, a bit pointless. We all need to make huge life changes but when the current PM's jollies are funded by a climate skeptics group, I imagine taking to the streets is about the only answer because Brexit is so big, it's dominated the news when climate change probably should have.
> 
> That said, I'm not protesting. I understand it, appreciate what they are doing but I would rather see attainable goals for all of us, something that brings us together, something that doesn't turn meat eaters against vegans, @samuelsmiles3 against @noushka05, I don't know what that is yet but I'm starting by educating myself on better lifestyle choices.
> 
> I don't know about celebs, they don't turn up to any marches in Cambridge, just ordinary folk who care a lot, who do walk, take public transport (frankly very brave round these parts) or cycle. I have absolutely zero interest in showbiz and pop culture. I couldn't tell a Kardashian from Towie to be fair! I don't think many of those I know who are protesting with XR would either or endorse the personal actions of a celeb.


I agree with alot of what you have posted. I too grew up with the threat of nuclear war & at times I was terrified. I remember we watched the film Threads at school, the group of us rowdy school children thought we were in for a treat watching a film instead of a lesson but then the horror of it started to take effect & there was silence. We all left completely shell shocked, it was awful & I have never forgotten that film.

I don't think there are two camps tho, I am not denying climate change & the fact that we need to do something … I just don't agree with Extinction Rebellions demands, I don't agree with how they are protesting & don't think that things will change because of this protest. I don't have the answers but like you would rather see people bought together & start looking at how we can make changes, how we can influence big businesses & our government but am not sure how this would work as we are seem to be so divided atm.


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> I agree with alot of what you have posted. I too grew up with the threat of nuclear war & at times I was terrified. I remember we watched the film Threads at school, the group of us rowdy school children thought we were in for a treat watching a film instead of a lesson but then the horror of it started to take effect & there was silence. We all left completely shell shocked, it was awful & I have never forgotten that film.
> 
> I don't think there are two camps tho, I am not denying climate change & the fact that we need to do something … I just don't agree with Extinction Rebellions demands, I don't agree with how they are protesting & don't think that things will change because of this protest. I don't have the answers but like you would rather see people bought together & start looking at how we can make changes, how we can influence big businesses & our government but am not sure how this would work as we are seem to be so divided atm.


Yes I absolutely agree with you.

I remain hopeful (ish) that XR will wake up politicians. Many have, there are lots who are supporting them but that talk needs to be turned into action and fairly swiftly. It feels like there are too many think tanks and consultants, and then there's Boris.

It almost feels too big. I can stop flying which I have, but there will be others who don't or people who start. So more specific advice and capping unfriendly actions seems like a place to start. Maybe, don't know. I studied social design in my masters so I feel like the red rebels is more my thing than sign waving but for thr person who falls into Asda by default - my husband! - without a thought to their appalling ethics and environmental policy - they are an inconvenience. But then again supermarkets also have a lot to answer for... another rant!!


----------



## lullabydream

Cleo38 said:


> don't think there are two camps tho, I am not denying climate change & the fact that we need to do something … I just don't agree with Extinction Rebellions demands, I don't agree with how they are protesting & don't think that things will change because of this protest. I don't have the answers but like you would rather see people bought together & start looking at how we can make changes, how we can influence big businesses & our government but am not sure how this would work as we are seem to be so divided atm.


This is how it should be discussed absolutely.. This is what children need not to be frightened as @MollySmith has said. I have stated how Threads affected people before.. I was too young to understand however my mum had a Frank discussion with my older teen sisters, gave them perspective so they did have hopes and dreams. Not be frightened about this is what may happen, as life is too short in reality. We can do what we can, but myself, my sisters and my family still needed to go on living.

It's admirable children have a passion, when I was at school there was a lot on animal rights, people talked about it, were passionate made their choices because of it but they still lived and were teens.

Perspective is always necessary


----------



## kimthecat

Jane Fonda arrested !

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...ange-capitol-hill-washington-dc-a9152811.html


----------



## Calvine

There will be no stopping them once the money rolls in:

https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...ate-activists-us-donation-money-a9002466.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

Go , go ,go!!!!
Time to replace useless, toxic, fractured leading parties!!!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

kimthecat said:


> Jane Fonda arrested !
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...ange-capitol-hill-washington-dc-a9152811.html


I see your entitled American Actress, and raise you a Belgian Princess. 

*Extinction Rebellion: Belgian princess among 1,300 arrested over climate demonstrations in London*


----------



## Elles

Why didn’t they back research with their money? Or did they?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Greta Thunberg didn't win the Nobel Prize for which she had been nominated.

*She did win £83,000* in Sweden's 'alternative' Nobel Prize, though.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> Why didn't they back research with their money? Or did they?


I don't think research is high on their list of priorities. This is Stuart Basden who describes himself as one of the co-founders of XR.

*Extinction Rebellion isn't about the Climate*


----------



## Elles

http://www.ethicalcorp.com/singapore-leads-way-asian-developers-wake-climate-risk

They seem to think socialism is key and doing away with nasty capitalism will save us all. Seems to me no one can put money into it, if there isn't any money and competition drives innovation.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Why didn't they back research with their money? Or did they?


They seem to prefer tantrums and attention-seeking behaviour to logical adult discussions.


----------



## mrs phas

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Greta Thunberg didn't win the Nobel Prize for which she had been nominated.
> 
> *She did win £83,000* in Sweden's 'alternative' Nobel Prize, though.


Watch how quickly she falls from the headlines now, and, how the rats desert the sinking ship
Everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of a prospective Nobel prize winner, a share of the limelight is better than none
However no one wants to be seen backing a loser (not her personally, she is a manipulated Aspergic after all, I'm talking about the whole three ring circus that is her entourage)
Perhaps her parents, and the 'darlings', will let her go back to being a 16yr old now, rather than a controlled mouthpiece


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Here is a letter from the internet that some of the Extinction Rebellionists could do with reading and considering. Plenty in there that I remember growing up as a kid in the 1970's

"Checking out at the supermarket recently ,the young cashier suggested I should bring in my own bags because plastic ones weren't good for the environment . I apologised and explained that we didn't have the green thing in our day . The cashier responded "that's our problem today , your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generation!" She was right about 1 thing we didn't have the green thing in our day,so what did we have ? After some reflection and Soul searching on our day ,here's what I remembered .

Back then we returned milk bottles , fizzy pop and beer bottles to the store and the store returned them to the plant ,where the bottles were washed sterilised and refilled , so the same bottles were being reused repeatedly so they were recycled . But we didn't have the green thing ! We walked upstairs ,because we didn't have escalators and lifts in every store or office buildings,we walked to the shops and didn't climb into a 300 horse powered machine ,every time we wanted to go two streets away. She was right we didn't have the green thing in our day ! Back then we washed the babies nappies ,we didn't have the throw away kind . We dried our clothes on a line ,not on a energy gobbling machine burning 2-3Kw ......wind and solar power really did dry our clothes ! Kids got hand me downs from their brothers or sisters and not brand new clothing every time. But she was right we didn't have the green thing in our day . Back then we had 1 tv or radio in the house , not a tv in every room ,and the tv had a small screen the size of a handkerchief not a screen the size of Wales ! In the kitchen we blended or stirred by hand , we didn't have electric machines doing everything for us. When we packed a parcel for posting it was wrapped in old newspapers , to protect them ,not styrofoam or bubble wrap .

Back then we didn't fire up an engine and burn petrol just to cut the grass , we used a push mower that ran on human power,we exercised by working so we didn't need to go to the gym or health club to go on a treadmill run on electric ,but she's right we didn't have the green thing. Back then we drunk from a fountain when we were thirsty ,instead of using a plastic cup or bottle every time we needed a drink. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying new ones , and we replaced blades of a razor instead of throwing away when they went blunt, but we didn't have the green thing back then.

Back then people took buses and kids took their bikes to school or walked instead of mum being a 24 hr taxi service. We had only 1 electrical outlet in each room not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances, and we didn't need a computerised gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellite 2,000 miles away in space in order to find the nearest pizza joint. But isn't it sad that the current generation laments how wasteful we older folk were just because we didn't do the green thing !! Please forward this if you wish another selfish old person who needs a lesson in conversation from a smarty-pants young person can read this. !


----------



## Summercat

@Siskin 
Sorry, for the late reply. 
I think it is more useful to preserve old growth forests and ancient woodlands than plant new trees.
Sure, planting new trees is helpful but if older diverse woodlands are in danger of development and you want to offset your carbon usage, protect them.
The Woodland trust for example, has appeals to buy ancient woodlands to have them preserved.
If Elton John when buying carbon credits for Harry and Meghan, in the form of new single variety tree plantings had instead donated to the Woodland Trust, I would see that as more valuable.

As for virtue signaling, yes, it is a bit tedious, as those who do it seem to do it quite often, it is not just celebrities.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion demonstrations have been banned in London.


----------



## rona

Ok, just found out what's driving this and manipulating all these people. They apparently want a citizen's assembly that would direct the government in policy. That's a lot of power for those with money invested in the businesses that will benefit.
I did wonder why some of the money was so forthcoming, even oil money was being thrown at xr.
Am I being cynical?
I know something needs to happen and happen fast, I just can't see how all these people flying around the world telling other people how to behave is helping


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Rona, they don't "want" anything. They _demand _it. Not too sure that's democratic, is it?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

They went to get arrested, the campaign said "we want to get arrested" and now they are getting arrested. And now they are complaining about being arrested.

Tomorrow, George Monbiot is going to get himself arrested. He will then complain about getting arrested.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> They went to get arrested, the campaign said "we want to get arrested" and now they are getting arrested. And now they are complaining about being arrested.
> 
> Tomorrow, George Monbiot is going to get himself arrested. He will then complain about getting arrested.


Same with Jane Fonda ..................

https://grist.org/article/jane-fonda-gets-arrested-for-climate-protest-plans-to-do-it-again/

*Jane Fonda gets arrested for climate protest, plans to do it again*

Personally I much prefer the approach of her ex, Ted Turner the founder of CNN who's done more to save the planet than simply protesting and getting himself arrested. An article from 11 years ago.

https://grist.org/article/better-off-ted/

*Ted Turner chats about his outsized environmental hopes and ambitions*


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> They went to get arrested, the campaign said "we want to get arrested" and now they are getting arrested. And now they are complaining about being arrested.
> 
> Tomorrow, George Monbiot is going to get himself arrested. He will then complain about getting arrested.


How does getting arrested help the ''cause'' they ''allegedly'' support? Do they then feel that they are martyrs for their cause, when in fact most people see them as attention-seekers with nothing better to do?


----------



## westie~ma

On Friday I had theatre tickets with a meal booked before.

Had allowed extra time so went for a nose to see what all the fuss was about.

Drums, police on foot, police in vans, more drums and a very bad display of hola hooping that I've ever seen.

Ds got lost in amongst the demonstrators when we found him he informed us that they all smelled :Stinkyfeet octor :Stinkyfeet

I was left wondering if they knew their tents were mainly plastic and if they'd all left their heating on at home with some lights on timer :Bag


----------



## samuelsmiles3

George is on his way to London to get arrested. 

Today, I aim to get arrested. It is the only real power climate protesters have


----------



## samuelsmiles3

George update.

George is heading to Trafalgar Square for a 1:30pm uprising against the impending climate breakdown.

_"A few hours after this column is published, I hope to be in a police cell. I don't yet know what the charge will be, where I will be arrested or when, but I know that if I go home this evening without feeling the hand of the law on my sleeve, I will have failed."
_
Hope they don't arrest George and they just ignore him.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*The Daily Mail reader's guide to Extinction Rebellion*
16th October 2019









*ARE you a Daily Mail reader? Is your hatred of Extinction Rebellion furious, irrational and entirely uninformed?*

Confirm your prejudices about these privileged eco-b*stards below:

*Who are 'Extinction Rebellion'?*

A terrorist organisation formed of social degenerates including environmentalists, students, luvvies, Guardian readers, vegetarians and supply teachers. Their leader is evil 16-year-old Stalin-wannabe Greta Thunberg.

*What do they want? *

To make us live in a primitive Stone Age society where all technology is banned. They particularly want to remove mankind's most fundamental right: driving a car. Despite this they are all sickening hypocrites who own mobile phones and visit doctors when ill.

*Are they dangerous? *

Yes. They claim to be peaceful but only because Greta has not yet ordered them to invade your home to free your tortoise or set off a thermonuclear device in a major city. These fanatics would prefer millions of humans to die rather than upset an earthworm.

*What would happen if they took over?*

Criticism of the global warming myth will be illegal and ordinary citizens would face show trials and the gulag for eating a sausage. Animals will be given authority over humans, so your next boss will be a squirrel and a seagull could requisition your bedroom.

*How can I protect my family from Extinction Rebellion? *

If you see warning signs that Extinction Rebellion is about to attack - young people, a mention of climate change without the prefix 'so-called', an older woman with a hemp tote bag - immediately vacate the area for a safe space, eg. Wetherspoons.

*What should I do if someone expresses sympathy for these scum?*

Tie them to a chair and begin a 'deprogramming' regime by force-feeding them bacon and making them watch _The Grand Tour._ It's the only sane thing to do.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It is the only real power climate protesters have


How sad is that! You are supposedly so ''passionate'' about/''obsessed with'' something that this is how you go about working towards achieving your goal. All you've managed to do is make people think what a prat you are.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Here's George now. He's brought some friends with him. (It's definitely not a cult)


----------



## Siskin

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Here's George now. He's brought some friends with him. (It's definitely not a cult)
> 
> View attachment 419750


Not very inclusive is it, can't see a black face anywhere in that lot. Who's the bloke in the robes?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Yep, luvvie type actors blocking the road because they can't win democratic elections. If you don't agree with them they won't debate. Or free speech until you disagree.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

George has now been nicked. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Cleo38

I was reading earlier about Lewis Hamilton bleating on about how everyone should go vegan & save the planet ….. slightly missing the fact he flies around the world in private jets to partake in a sport which involves racing cars round & round, burning fuels needlessly

Whilst I congratulate him for trying to promote a healthy diet (I believe he follows a mainly plant based diet) & being aware of animal abuse, etc so trying to make more ethical choices I honestly can't believe he can make such sweeping statements regarding environmental issues whilst partaking in the sport he does & living the lifestyle he does …. do these people honestly not see that the irony?!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Cleo38 said:


> I was reading earlier about Lewis Hamilton bleating on about how everyone should go vegan & save the planet ….. slightly missing the fact he flies around the world in private jets to partake in a sport which involves racing cars round & round, burning fuels needlessly
> 
> Whilst I congratulate him for trying to promote a healthy diet (I believe he follows a mainly plant based diet) & being aware of animal abuse, etc so trying to make more ethical choices I honestly can't believe he can make such sweeping statements regarding environmental issues whilst partaking in the sport he does & living the lifestyle he does …. do these people honestly not see that the irony?!!


https://www.euronews.com/living/201...vegan-burger-joint-off-london-s-regent-street

*LEWIS HAMILTON TO OPEN VEGAN BURGER JOINT OFF LONDON'S REGENT STREET*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/16...tes?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_c

*Benedict Cumberbatch, Jude Law and Sienna Miller admit to being 'climate hypocrites'*


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/16...tes?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_c
> 
> *Benedict Cumberbatch, Jude Law and Sienna Miller admit to being 'climate hypocrites'*


not really though, do they?



> it went on to say that articles labelling them "climate hypocrites" would "not silence us", and encouraged more people to join the movement.


so basically theyre just saying:
do as i say, not as i do,
cos their lives, playing dress up and raking in millions for doing so, are more precious and deserving, than the average man on the street trying to get through their 'bravery' to pay his bills

btw, since when has it been brave to be arrested?
go down any high st on a friday/saturday night and youll see people being 'brave'
after
vomitng in the street,
fighting with their best mates,
shouting obscenities
and
laying in gutters ( obviously that last one could be XR idiots too)

maybe, like our men and women that lay down their lives for others, they should get bravery medals too
how about the victoria cross for gluing your naked self to the pavement at the peril of getting frostbite


----------



## Cleo38

These people are incredibly wealthy & if they really felt as passionately as they make out then they would change their lifestyle. They have enough money to be able to turn down work if it meant flying, to even change careers. They have far more choices than most people due to their wealth … but they don't. Instead they preach to us & carry on with their private jets, etc because they seem to think that they are not part of the problem …. it honestly would be laughable if environmental issues weren't so serious


----------



## samuelsmiles3

This is George's arrest. You'll notice that George has a big smile on his face as he is carried away like a little child. This is because it is about George, and not an impending 'climate crisis'.


----------



## Boxer123

Did anyone see the interview with broccoli man on GMB today. Strange times we live in.


----------



## Siskin

Boxer123 said:


> Did anyone see the interview with broccoli man on GMB today. Strange times we live in.


Broccoli man???


----------



## Boxer123

Siskin said:


> Broccoli man???







I thought I had woken up in a parallel universe.


----------



## lullabydream

Boxer123 said:


> I thought I had woken up in a parallel universe.


Sorry after Mr Brocolli said he grows, and you can call me Mr Brocolli I turned off. How on earth do these people think we expect to be taken seriously?


----------



## Cleo38

This article made me laugh & although I might not agree with everything he write it does sum up how I feel about ER ….. https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/14/extinction-rebellions-war-on-the-working-class/


----------



## Boxer123

The scenes at train stations looked scary this morning I'm surprised no one has been seriously hurt


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Maybe this is the moment the ordinary working person felt they had had enough of Extinction Rebellion protestors disrupting their lives.

Extinction Rebellion eco-warriors are beaten by furious commuters after climbing onto Jubilee Tube in rush-hour chaos


----------



## Beth78

Gosh they are playing a dangerous game there. Looks like alot of those commuters are at breaking point.


----------



## Cleo38

Good on those commuters!!


----------



## kimthecat

Just watching it on rhe news. Thats what happens when u push people too far. !
A climate warrier journalist filmed it. He complained it took 20 mins for police to come. That made me laugh.


----------



## Beth78

I don't think anyone deserves to be pulled to the floor and beaten, it will just escalate things


----------



## Cleo38

Beth78 said:


> I don't think anyone deserves to be pulled to the floor and beaten, it will just escalate things


Maybe not but people need to get to work so tensions will be high if they are prevented. For some people if they do not get to work they do not get paid which means they may not be able to afford rent, food, electricity, etc.

For these (mainly) middle class protestors it is probably something they don't have to worry about


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/16...tes?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_c
> 
> *Benedict Cumberbatch, Jude Law and Sienna Miller admit to being 'climate hypocrites'*


 We could have told them that ages ago.


----------



## kimthecat

Beth78 said:


> I don't think anyone deserves to be pulled to the floor and beaten, it will just escalate things


I agree but i think this is a wake up call for them .


----------



## catz4m8z

Generally Im behind the climate change protesters and agree with the protests but Im not sure what the point of stopping trains is.
Its illogical and totally unfeasable to expect us to create no pollution, use no fossil fuel and have no carbon footprint. Surely trains and buses are a better solution for those who live out of walking or biking distance then everybody driving their own car?
I think they need to spend more time on education and positive examples of how changes can be made. Lets be honest though....we need the people in power to make significant changes to government policies.


----------



## Calvine

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...stration-near-parliament-square-a4257451.html

Trust the breastfeeding brigade to get their tits out. I would not involve a baby in this pantomime.


----------



## Dave S

I think it was only a matter of time before the great British public showed what they think of their lives being disrupted by idiots like ER. Perhaps the Police took their time finishing their bacon butties and doughnuts because they cannot do what they really want to do and join in.
Well done for giving ER an idea of what we think of them - now hopefully they will rethink what their aims are and how they want to achieve them.


----------



## mrs phas

Calvine said:


> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...stration-near-parliament-square-a4257451.html
> 
> Trust the breastfeeding brigade to get their tits out. I would not involve a baby in this pantomime.


I have no problem with breastfeeding in public, I breastfed all of mine,including twins
But
Every single one of those women, protesting about their children not having a future, have, according to the credo they so vehemently believe in, added to the crisis, by choosing to have those children, and increasing the, perceived, overpopulation of the planet
Also
I hope every single one, of those arrested, get the same social services intervention and harassment, that any plebian mum, who was arrested, would get


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> I have no problem with breastfeeding in public,


No: but hiking all the way to central London to do it . . .


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> Maybe not but people need to get to work so tensions will be high if they are prevented


 My son and gf spend £17,000 a year on season tickets to go to work. On top of that, day nursery and walker for two dogs. To pay out these amounts simply in order to get to work, then find someone sitting on top of / glued to the train is stopping you from getting to or from work? Yes, I think that might just push you over the edge.


----------



## mrs phas

Calvine said:


> No: but hiking all the way to central London to do it . . .


Breastfeeding mothers aren't restricted to their homes or local area
That's the beauty of breastfeeding, have boob, will travel
So still see no problem with it
I, personally, wouldn't sit on a floor strewn with pigeon faeces, but I'm not them


----------



## samuelsmiles3

mrs phas said:


> Every single one of those women, protesting about their children not having a future, have, according to the credo they so vehemently believe in, added to the crisis, by choosing to have those children, and increasing the, perceived, overpopulation of the planet
> t


Yes, these people do seem to have an astonishing lack of self awareness, don't they.

Another weirdo has now glued herself to a DLR train in East London.


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> I, personally, wouldn't sit on a floor strewn with pigeon faeces, but I'm not them


That was more or less the point I was making.


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> I hope every single one, of those arrested, get the same social services intervention and harassment, that any plebian mum, who was arrested, would get


 They won't.


----------



## kimthecat

I thought using public transport was a good thing. We're always being encouraged to use it instead of cars . 
I believe the powers that be want to ban cars in London by the 2030s


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I thought using public transport was a good thing. We're always being encouraged to use it instead of cars .
> I believe the powers that be want to ban cars in London by the 2030s


I hate to tell you this, but you're looking for logic in the wrong place...


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> I, personally, wouldn't sit on a floor strewn with pigeon faeces,


Not many people would. Imagine if this group went into McDonalds for lunch and were told, ''Sorry, you can't breastfeed in here; you have to go and sit outside on the pavement'', they would, understandably, be displeased.


----------



## catz4m8z

Its actually a smart move though. Not like the police are going to get the water cannons and rubber bullets out when facing a wall of babies! They have to allow the protest or face some seriously bad publicity.


----------



## Cleo38

Calvine said:


> My son and gf spend £17,000 a year on season tickets to go to work. On top of that, day nursery and walker for two dogs. To pay out these amounts simply in order to get to work, then find someone sitting on top of / glued to the train is stopping you from getting to or from work? Yes, I think that might just push you over the edge.


Agreed, rail commuters on some lines have had a particularly sh*tty time lately but coupled with rising fare prices & genetal rush hour stress (I used to commute into London daily & it is so tiring) then am not surprised people are fighting back.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Cleo38 said:


> Agreed, rail commuters on some lines have had a particularly sh*tty time lately but coupled with rising fare prices & *genetal rush hour stress* (I used to commute into London daily & it is so tiring) then am not surprised people are fighting back.


----------



## Cleo38

samuelsmiles3 said:


>


Hahahahahahahaha!! Trying to type on my phone …. obviously I meant GENERAL


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...stration-near-parliament-square-a4257451.html
> 
> Trust the breastfeeding brigade to get their tits out. I would not involve a baby in this pantomime.


I hope none of them use disposable nappies.....


----------



## Calvine

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/17/susa...oli-good-morning-britain-appearance-10932872/

Here is Mr Broccoli from the vegan offshoot. Would it convince you to give up meat? And will he recycle that thing on his head (or maybe his head as well)?


----------



## Calvine

Have to agree with David Lammy for once. It looks like it was an own goal though as they changed their minds about Gatwick.


----------



## lullabydream

Calvine said:


> https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/17/susa...oli-good-morning-britain-appearance-10932872/
> 
> Here is Mr Broccoli from the vegan offshoot. Would it convince you to give up meat? And will he recycle that thing on his head (or maybe his head as well)?


Wow I actually agree with Piers Morgan that's a rare thing!


----------



## Calvine

lullabydream said:


> Wow I actually agree with Piers Morgan that's a rare thing!


He's spot on this time, I have to agree.


----------



## Rafa

Beth78 said:


> I don't think anyone deserves to be pulled to the floor and beaten,


I do. Everyone has their breaking point and clearly, these people who are simply trying to go about their daily business and who have suffered weeks of disruption have reached theirs. Had I got up at the crack of dawn and made my way to the train, facing a long commute, only to find some idiot telling me I was not going to use the train until he allowed it, I would be infuriated.



Beth78 said:


> it will just escalate things


'Things' couldn't escalate if these full of their own importance fools weren't there in the first place.


----------



## Calvine

Rafa said:


> I do. Everyone has their breaking point and clearly, these people who are simply trying to go about their daily business and who have suffered weeks of disruption have reached theirs. Had I got up at the crack of dawn and made my way to the train, facing a long commute, only to find some idiot telling me I was not going to use the train until he allowed it, I would be infuriated.
> 
> 'Things' couldn't escalate if these full of their own importance fools weren't there in the first place.


I sort of wonder how long these commuters would have been kept waiting if they hadn't dealt with it themselves? At least it ''persuaded'' them to cancel their plans for disruption at LGW.


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahahahahahaha!! Trying to type on my phone …. obviously I meant GENERAL


Erm , I think your mind was else where !:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion have been demanding a Citizen's Assembly. Well, I think they got one this morning.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion have been demanding a Citizen's Assembly. Well, I think they got one this morning.


They are actually very good at demanding things, aren't they!


----------



## mrs phas

Calvine said:


> Have to agree with David Lammy for once. It looks like it was an own goal though as they changed their minds about Gatwick.


Jesus wept!
I never thought I'd agree with him over anything



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion have been demanding a Citizen's Assembly. Well, I think they got one this morning.


Can I suggest, if they're going to have an assembly, this might be appropriate






Or do they not mean that type of assembly


----------



## Guest

I have sympathy for those trying to go to work and earn some money when their routes to work are being blocked by extinction rebellion protesters in their path or mode of transport. It is only a matter of time before the general public go enough is enough. 

I am personally getting fed up with them in Amsterdam. They have made their point now get back to your normal every day lives, they are acting silly and childish now in my personal opinion.

I was not surprised with what happened on the London train/tube network this morning.


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Thursday 17 October 2019 by Davywavy*

*Extinction Rebellion protestors won't be happy until every single Londoner hates them*









*Climate protesters in central London have confirmed they won't be happy until they've made every single Londoner late for work and everyone hates them.*

Extinction Rebellion vowed this morning to move heaven and earth to strand commuters at major transit hubs and bring traffic to a standstill in their efforts to win popular support for their cause.

"The purpose of mass protest is to raise awareness of a problem and win over the wider population to your point of view," said protester Simon Williams, 27.

"I don't happen to live in London myself, but I think the best way to make people sympathetic to our cause is by making sure they're stuck at a tube station for forty minutes when they just want to get to work because they might get fired if they don't.

"Obviously, systems of mass public transport are absolutely the ones we want to disrupt to help spread our agenda, and in so doing alienate the people who are trying to use them.

"We're confident that within weeks we'll have converted everyone in the greater metropolitan area with our winning tactics of immobilising the tube network during rush hour, shutting down the main stations and leaving crap lying around everywhere for someone else to pick up before ****ing off home."

"If there's anyone we've missed, let us know and we'll come round and let your tyres down", he added.

Commuter Kevin Matthews told us, "I heard about the problems on the Tube this morning, so I drove to work in my diesel 4×4 instead - I guess this means they've won?"


----------



## Cleo38

Love it @Magyarmum


----------



## catz4m8z

Calvine said:


> https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/17/susa...oli-good-morning-britain-appearance-10932872/
> 
> Here is Mr Broccoli from the vegan offshoot. Would it convince you to give up meat? And will he recycle that thing on his head (or maybe his head as well)?


I love how the article states the presenter was angry that the guy didnt put forward any scientific arguments for veganism...he is called Mr Broccoli and is dressed up as a piece of broccoli....what on earth about that says logical science!?:Hilarious



saartje said:


> I am personally getting fed up with them in Amsterdam. They have made their point now get back to your normal every day lives, they are acting silly and childish now in my personal opinion.
> .


I think we are supposed to be fed up though, they are pushing for major change. Kinda like how workers strike until they get their fair wages/conditions.


----------



## Dave S

Did anyone watch the interview on local news with some woman representing ER?
To say she seemed thick is an understatement and she could not answer a single question without going all round the houses. (Reminded me of a female Boris J)

Perhaps it would be better if they were encouraging people not to have fireworks and bonfires and asking other outlets to follow Sainsbury's example and not sell fireworks in the first place.

They may get more public support then.


----------



## mrs phas

Dave S said:


> Perhaps it would be better if they were encouraging people not to have fireworks and bonfires and asking other outlets to follow Sainsbury's example and not sell fireworks in the first place.
> 
> They may get more public support then.


now if they did that, I, and a good 75% of the country would be supporting them like a shot

thank you about the tip re sainsbury, i shall be shopping there for the time being, instead of tesco, to show my support for their stand, it may cost a bit more in my pocket, but, personally, i think its worth it


----------



## Guest

catz4m8z said:


> I think we are supposed to be fed up though, they are pushing for major change. Kinda like how workers strike until they get their fair wages/conditions.


They aren't like workers striking to get fair wages/conditions though. They are gluing their body parts to the floor, doors etc and distrupting other peoples lives who are rightly getting angry because people still need go to work to pay the bills and for food.

Here in the Netherlands the hospital staff are having a national strike in support of a better pay deal but they won't be gluing themselves to things or stopping other people from going to work or going about their daily lives.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...ke-in-november-in-support-of-better-pay-deal/

I don't mind protests but this is getting way out hand with extinction rebellion.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Revealed: Accounts worker, 35, who was dragged off roof of Tube train by furious commuters - as even his fellow Extinction Rebellion comrades attack stunt for 'jeopardising the movement' 

_"__a senior source within the climate protest group, said: '*We were vehemently opposed to it. So it's really upsetting for this to happen. This was not an action we support*_*."*

Translation - 

"We are vehemently upset that it got this reaction. We hope it doesn't get the same reaction next time we piss off the public"


----------



## samuelsmiles3

They're at it again in Oxford Street. Pushing their luck a bit, although it looks as though the police are looking after them.


----------



## kimthecat

They're supposed to be going home today but they couldnt get on the trains due to them holding them up . :Hilarious

On the news this AM , one was saying about the extraordinary sacrifices the climate warriors had made  e.g getting arrested and losing their freedom ! Well at least they had the choice , the Joe Public who lost out didn't have that choice.


----------



## Elles

They haven't lost their freedom, they’re having a jolly at the police station. This is the U.K., not China.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> They're supposed to be going home today but they couldnt get on the trains due to them holding them up . :Hilarious
> 
> On the news this AM , one was saying about the extraordinary sacrifices the climate warriors had made  e.g getting arrested and losing their freedom ! Well at least they had the choice , the Joe Public who lost out didn't have that choice.


Oh FFS, these people are unbelievable. They probably got a lovely vegan meal in a warm, dry cell, a bit of peace & quiet & then were let out again …. yeah, such hardship!! 

https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/ne...for-arrested-extinction-rebellion-protesters/


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> Oh FFS, these people are unbelievable. They probably got a lovely vegan meal in a warm, dry cell, a bit of peace & quiet & then were let out again …. yeah, such hardship!!
> 
> https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/ne...for-arrested-extinction-rebellion-protesters/


 I hope they had a shower too! They could probably do with one.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

kimthecat said:


> I hope they had a shower too! They could probably do with one.


Some people have called them Ex- stink-sion Rebellion. Some people are very childish.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Revealed: Accounts worker, 35, who was dragged off roof of Tube train by furious commuters - as even his fellow Extinction Rebellion comrades attack stunt for 'jeopardising the movement'
> 
> _"__a senior source within the climate protest group, said: '*We were vehemently opposed to it. So it's really upsetting for this to happen. This was not an action we support*_*."*
> 
> Translation -
> 
> "We are vehemently upset that it got this reaction. We hope it doesn't get the same reaction next time we piss off the public"


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Some people have called them Ex- stink-sion Rebellion. Some people are very childish.


Remember the ''eco-warrior'' called Swampy? Apparently when he was interviewed, he stank the place out. People were gagging.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> Remember the ''eco-warrior'' called Swampy? Apparently when he was interviewed, he stank the place out. People were gagging.


In fairness, the clue was in the name.....


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> They aren't like workers striking to get fair wages/conditions though. They are gluing their body parts to the floor, doors etc and distrupting other peoples lives who are rightly getting angry because people still need go to work to pay the bills and for food.
> 
> Here in the Netherlands the hospital staff are having a national strike in support of a better pay deal but they won't be gluing themselves to things or stopping other people from going to work or going about their daily lives.
> 
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...ke-in-november-in-support-of-better-pay-deal/
> 
> I don't mind protests but this is getting way out hand with extinction rebellion.


There's one 83-year-old there who has been arrested 13 times; I really think he should get a warning that if he does it again he will be charged with wasting police time.


----------



## Guest

Last Saturday some 130 protesters got arrested in Centraal Amsterdam. The politie said the protest was not authorised and they had no permission to protest and the protesters blocked traffic in Centraal Amsterdam. The total arrested last week went past 250 (probably nothing compared to the amount arrested in London) according to Dutch press. Here in the Netherlands they would have spent around 6 hours in politie custody and received fixed fines for public order offences. The politie are over stretched as it is dealing with other crimes and I am sure they are in London in England as well.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Not sure what happened to the London demonstration ban? 50 policeman guarding it? 1 member of the public with a chainsaw could have dismantled that little lot in 5 minutes.


----------



## Siskin

Hope they’re not still there in early May. My daughters getting married then and I really don’t want to miss that due to these idiots


----------



## Guest

Have I just heard this correctly an extinction rebellion protester has scaled up the scaffolding around Big Ben in London?


----------



## Siskin

saartje said:


> Have I just heard this correctly an extinction rebellion protester has scaled up the scaffolding around Big Ben in London?


Perhaps they are going to wind back time......literally


----------



## Guest

Siskin said:


> Perhaps they are going to wind back time......literally


:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Have I just heard this correctly an extinction rebellion protester has scaled up the scaffolding around Big Ben in London?


One is dressed as BoJo, too!

I think this calls for a song!

_Hickory Dickory Dock
ER ran up the clock
Big Ben struck one
And another two
Escaped with minor injuries..._


----------



## O2.0

Siskin said:


> Perhaps they are going to wind back time......literally


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Have I just heard this correctly an extinction rebellion protester has scaled up the scaffolding around Big Ben in London?


 Yes: a tree surgeon, and he's wearing green tights apparently.


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> Yes: a tree surgeon, and he's wearing green tights apparently.


On a serious note it was very dangerous what he done.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> On a serious note it was very dangerous what he done


And if the daft bugger had fallen off, he would likely have sued, saying it should not have been accessible for anyone to climb, or that someone should have stopped him.


----------



## grumpy goby

Calvine said:


> And if the daft bugger had fallen off, he would likely have sued, saying it should not have been accessible for anyone to climb, or that someone should have stopped him.


This is basically true if it's still under scaffolding (I don't know if it is...)... last time I did the construction site management courses in the UK it was basically "the construction co. Is responsible for ensuring that hazards are properly secured, as far as reasonably practicable. It would have been up to them to prove that however he gained access was not something one could predict.
If it's not under any building work anymore... I have no idea where it would stand under HASAWA... but I would assume it's not something anyone could feasible prevent??

having worked in city construction, and on some Westminster govt building facility management... I do always feel for the teams looking after these sites and building.


----------



## Calvine

It would seem that Mr Idiotic Broccoli is a serial protester . . . he's pictured at todays's anti-Brexit/People's Vote demo too . . . he can't have much else in his life methinks.


----------



## lullabydream

Calvine said:


> It would seem that Mr Idiotic Broccoli is a serial protester . . . he's pictured at todays's anti-Brexit/People's Vote demo too . . . he can't have much else in his life methinks.


Do you think he will be calling banana man up for help on this one on his banana phone?


----------



## Calvine

lullabydream said:


> Do you think he will be calling banana man up for help on this one on his banana phone?


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion's London protests cost the Met £37million to police - £22million MORE than they spent on violent crime team last year.

It's not as if XR doesn't have a good income from some wealthy donors so, maybe, they should help foot the bill.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion's London protests cost the Met £37million to police - £22million MORE than they spent on violent crime team last year.
> 
> 
> View attachment 420198


That's a disgusting amount of money!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

You could plant a lot of trees for that sort of money. And get some public support.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion's London protests cost the Met £37million to police - £22million MORE than they spent on violent crime team last year.
> 
> It's not as if XR doesn't have a good income from some wealthy donors so, maybe, they should help foot the bill.
> 
> 
> View attachment 420198


And apparently they are threatening to repeat the pantomime in the run-up to Christmas. I rather imagine that if they do one or two of them might get lynched.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion Vows to Cause Christmas Chaos.

_"We acknowledge that we still have not brought everyone with us on the issue of the climate and ecological emergency."_

They really are quite thick, aren't they.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Michael Shellenberger speaking sense. Again and again and again.

Why Atomic Humanism will Triumph over Climate Apocalypse

"I have been an environmental activist for 33 years. During that time,* I have never seen a more depressing, death-affirming environmental protest than XR's protest in London."*


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> You could plant a lot of trees for that sort of money.


 So many worthwhile charities which could benefit.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> They really are quite thick, aren't they.


 I actually saw one interviewed and she was struggling to answer questions.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Calvine said:


> I actually saw one interviewed and she was struggling to answer questions.


Yes, it was probably extinction rebellionist Zion Lights, the activist and science "communicator", although she does have some stiff competition.

She was unable to communicate anything without resorting to the usual platitudes.


----------



## Dave S

It's a shame that the Mayor has got rid of the water canons that BJ bought. The could have had a dual purpose with XR - mix some soap with the water and give them a good wash as they get blasted away by the jet of water.

Seriously though, can you imagine the public reaction if they caused problems in the run up to Christmas and New Year. I reckon they would be shown no mercy.


----------



## Calvine

Dave S said:


> It's a shame that the Mayor has got rid of the water canons that BJ bought. The could have had a dual purpose with XR - mix some soap with the water and give them a good wash as they get blasted away by the jet of water.
> 
> Seriously though, can you imagine the public reaction if they caused problems in the run up to Christmas and New Year. I reckon they would be shown no mercy.


I suggested a few lynchings might be on the cards.


----------



## Magyarmum

It's a really good job they're protesting in London and not Paris because the French police aren't as "gentle" as ours are.

https://www.climatechangenews.com/2019/10/23/emmanuel-macrons-war-climate-activism/

*Emmanuel Macron's war on climate activism*


----------



## samuelsmiles3

This is a talk by University of East Anglia 'philosopher' and Extinction Rebellionist, Rupert Read. He is telling children that he is very sorry but their futures are pretty much doomed - he actually said at one point "if you grow up". Adults in the room applaud him at the end. Not an easy watch.


----------



## Elles

In ten years time when these young people grow up with mental health issues, having been terrified and indoctrinated into his philosophy of fear, but still very much alive, will there be a kickback I wonder?

They are using children in a way that various cults and organisations do and have for millennia. Young people could be encouraged to go into the sciences and discover solutions in a positive way, instead we’re allowing young minds to be abused by this kind of thing and applauding it? Our young need protecting and from more than climate change. Can we not see the parallel to radicalisation of the young by groups such as ISIS and even the IRA.  

He should be preaching to willing adults who can do something about it, not prancing about on a desk pretending to be a rule breaker and influencing impressionable children. More young people are suffering mental health issues and suicide amongst the young is on the increase, especially young girls, this kind of thing has to be a factor, including peer pressure whether for or against climate activism.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> They are using children in a way that various cults and organisations do and have for millennia.


I've been watching this happen in various ways over the last couple of decades, it's working so they've upped the tempo


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> In ten years time when these young people grow up with mental health issues, having been terrified and indoctrinated into his philosophy of fear, but still very much alive, will there be a kickback I wonder?
> 
> They are using children in a way that various cults and organisations do and have for millennia. Young people could be encouraged to go into the sciences and discover solutions in a positive way, instead we're allowing young minds to be abused by this kind of thing and applauding it? Our young need protecting and from more than climate change. Can we not see the parallel to radicalisation of the young by groups such as ISIS and even the IRA.
> 
> He should be preaching to willing adults who can do something about it, not prancing about on a desk pretending to be a rule breaker and influencing impressionable children. More young people are suffering mental health issues and suicide amongst the young is on the increase, especially young girls, this kind of thing has to be a factor, including peer pressure whether for or against climate activism.


Well, that's where we are at the moment, sadly. All of this nonsense about catastrophic climate change, environmental breakdown, impending 'end of the world' predictions and the collapse of society.

Thankfully we now have the Climate Psychology Alliance to fix the minds of those so badly traumatised by this crap, so all is well. Eco-anxiety. Climate grief. Climate support groups. Climate anxiety. Climate stress. Ecological grief. Climate grief circles.

"_The emotional reaction of my kids was severe," she told NBC News. "There was a lot of crying. They told me, 'We know what's coming, and it's going to be really rough.' "_

What a state.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> This is a talk by University of East Anglia 'philosopher' and Extinction Rebellionist, Rupert Read. He is telling children that he is very sorry but their futures are pretty much doomed - he actually said at one point "if you grow up". Adults in the room applaud him at the end. Not an easy watch.


 It's no wonder so many young people now have mental health issues when they are being deliberately scared to death in this way. So irresponsible.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Calvine said:


> It's no wonder so many young people now have mental health issues when they are being deliberately scared to death in this way. So irresponsible.


Yep, horrifying, isn't it? Read sees himself as a heroic Dead Poets Society kind of teacher, but he's far from being a hero.

He's been getting away with this crap for years.


----------



## Magyarmum

http://www.foeeurope.org/EU-commission-backs-55-controversial-new-fossil-fuel-projects-311019

*EU Commission backs 55 controversial new fossil fuel projects*


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion protester cleared of criminal damage after arguing her home was under threat from climate change 
_
"That you acted on the spur of moment to protect land and homes under threat from climate change, believing that immediate protection was necessary, and the action could be said to have been taken to protect property, and that you believed action chosen was reasonable in all circumstances."_

Extinction Rebellion protestors are given the green light to cause criminal damage because of the 'climate emergency'. The madness that just keeps on giving.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

The Extinction Rebellion cult.

Coming to a town near you, soon.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion protester cleared of criminal damage after arguing her home was under threat from climate change
> _
> "That you acted on the spur of moment to protect land and homes under threat from climate change, believing that immediate protection was necessary, and the action could be said to have been taken to protect property, and that you believed action chosen was reasonable in all circumstances."_
> 
> Extinction Rebellion protestors are given the green light to cause criminal damage because of the 'climate emergency'. The madness that just keeps on giving.


I'm undecided whether to file this under ''You Could Not Make This Up'' or ''Here We Go Loopy-Loo''. I despair, I truly do. What next?


----------



## MilleD

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion protester cleared of criminal damage after arguing her home was under threat from climate change
> _
> "That you acted on the spur of moment to protect land and homes under threat from climate change, believing that immediate protection was necessary, and the action could be said to have been taken to protect property, and that you believed action chosen was reasonable in all circumstances."_
> 
> Extinction Rebellion protestors are given the green light to cause criminal damage because of the 'climate emergency'. The madness that just keeps on giving.


Utterly bonkers....


----------



## Calvine

Calvine said:


> I'm undecided whether to file this under ''You Could Not Make This Up'' or ''Here We Go Loopy-Loo''. I despair, I truly do. What next?


Can you imagine a hunt saboteur being treated with kid gloves for a similar act of what was pure vandalism? It seems (to me, anyway) they are immune from any sort of castigation.


----------



## Elles

Hunt sabs have got away with knocking people unconscious and kicking them when they’re on the floor, because Hunt sabs hide their faces. They don’t spray paint council buildings and if they did, they couldn’t claim to be under threat. 

However it’s a ridiculous interpretation of the law. They’ll have to change it. If Banksy spray paints your wall, you can sell the result and buy a new house, so I wouldn’t like him put off, but that excuse was pathetic. Spray painting council offices isn’t going to save you from climate change. How far will they be allowed to go to protect themselves? Start shooting climate deniers and the ceos of oil companies?


----------



## mrs phas

So when, in the dead of winter, they break into an OAP's house, pee on her fossil fuel fire and said OAP freezes to death
That will be OK! 
Because the perpetrator won't be committing manslaughter, 
Or any crime really,
they will be judged to have been acting due to the very real fear (in their tiny minds)that they are being endangered by climate change, fuelled(excuse the pun) by the fossil fuel being used
That's just a get out of jail free clause!
Surely, as adults, they should be judged as having the capability to think their actions, and activities, through to the final and absolute conclusion
IE, if they vandalise something, someone has to pay, for said vandalism and why should it be the victim?
I cannot see where CCC building, was causing climate change, just by sitting there, it was probably there before her home was built. 
Now had she egged, or milkshaked, a councillor, for voting against a bill or motion to help cut emissions or similar, then I'd have some sympathy for her, but property no, totally pointless except for a headline or two, waste of public money taking up court time, and members of the county get punished by her behaviour (including herself) when the CCC part of the council tax goes up in April to offset such costs


----------



## Calvine

@Elles: Which is why I was very careful to say:



Calvine said:


> Can you imagine a hunt saboteur being treated with kid gloves for _a similar act of what was pure vandalism_?


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Surely, as adults, they should be judged as having the capability to think their actions, and activities, through to the final and absolute conclusion


It certainly does seem that certain groups are not expected to be responsible for their own actions; it's all very strange and worrying.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> @Elles: Which is why I was very careful to say:


Yes, I can. They've got away with far worse.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Yes, I can. They've got away with far worse.


So you said in post 895.


----------



## Cleo38

Elles said:


> Hunt sabs have got away with knocking people unconscious and kicking them when they're on the floor, because Hunt sabs hide their faces. They don't spray paint council buildings and if they did, they couldn't claim to be under threat.


And people (men usually) who worked for the hunt got away with countless attacks because the MFH or landowners were rich &/or influential people in the community. I witnessed many accounts (I used to be a member of a local sab group years ago) & was assaulted (not badly luckily) & threatened with violence almost every time I went out.

Laws have always been interpreted differently at times & will continue to do so. Much as I was against the whole ER circus I can understand how the case linked to was treated more leniently (after the brief read I gave it). Sometimes there will be circumstances or previous good character taken in to consideration, sometimes people do get swept away & make bad decisions. No-one was hurt in this so it's hardly like she got away with murder.


----------



## Elles

Cleo38 said:


> And people (men usually) who worked for the hunt got away with countless attacks because the MFH or landowners were rich &/or influential people in the community. I witnessed many accounts (I used to be a member of a local sab group years ago) & was assaulted (not badly luckily) & threatened with violence almost every time I went out.
> 
> Laws have always been interpreted differently at times & will continue to do so. Much as I was against the whole ER circus I can understand how the case linked to was treated more leniently (after the brief read I gave it). Sometimes there will be circumstances or previous good character taken in to consideration, sometimes people do get swept away & make bad decisions. No-one was hurt in this so it's hardly like she got away with murder.


So the hunt got away with it too. The post suggested that no one else would get away with spray painting buildings, including hunt sabs. I would say a lot of people get away with a lot of things, including sabs, so I disagreed.

The main thing in this case I find weird is not that they got away with it, but the reason why. We're allowed to break car windows to get children, or dogs out for example and my point was, just how far are ER allowed to go. How would they know? If spray painting buildings is ok, Is smashing up, or spray painting pollution causing cars ok too? How far are we allowed to go and can vandals use it and say they too felt under threat from CC?


----------



## Magyarmum

Extinction Rebellion protesters sailed a house down the river Thames in a bid to draw attention to rising sea levels.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Extinction Rebellion protesters sailed a house down the river Thames in a bid to draw attention to rising sea levels.


Is this for real? Please tell me it's not!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Is this for real? Please tell me it's not!!


Yup it's true ............. cross my heart and hope to die!






https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nction-Rebellion-sail-HOUSE-River-Thames.html

*Eco protesters Extinction Rebellion sail a HOUSE down the River Thames in a bid to draw attention to rising sea levels*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Yup it's true ............. cross my heart and hope to die!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nction-Rebellion-sail-HOUSE-River-Thames.html
> 
> *Eco protesters Extinction Rebellion sail a HOUSE down the River Thames in a bid to draw attention to rising sea levels*


If they handle this as professionally as they did the untaxed/uninsured fire engine, God help us all. I'd have thought this would be classified as a ''hazard to navigation'' (unquote).


----------



## Beth78

Gets the point across I suppose. It's what we see on the news from other countries all the time.


----------



## Dave S

OK very clever of them but after it sank, did they leave it in the Thames or recover it?


----------



## Beth78

It didn't sink, they sailed it down the river then retrieved it.


----------



## Siskin

I wonder what the house was made of?


----------



## Beth78

Siskin said:


> I wonder what the house was made of?


Yes I was wondering this as well.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion hunger strike.

_"On November 18th the Extinction Rebellion Global Hunger Strike will officially launch to demand that governments act on the climate and ecological emergency that threatens the extinction of a million species,* the collapse of civilizations and the death of billions of* *humans*"._

Sadly, I don't think this madness is going to go away anytime soon. 

_
_


----------



## Dave S

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion hunger strike.
> 
> _"On November 18th the Extinction Rebellion Global Hunger Strike will officially launch to demand that governments act on the climate and ecological emergency that threatens the extinction of a million species,* the collapse of civilizations and the death of billions of* *humans*".
> _


Sounds like ER will be the first to die.

Shot themselves in their feet methinks

Goodbye ER, no more holding up traffic and stopping people going about their lawful business. Not missing you already.


----------



## ForestWomble

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion hunger strike.
> 
> _"On November 18th the Extinction Rebellion Global Hunger Strike will officially launch to demand that governments act on the climate and ecological emergency that threatens the extinction of a million species,* the collapse of civilizations and the death of billions of* *humans*"._
> 
> Sadly, I don't think this madness is going to go away anytime soon.


Stupid and dangerous, I hope children don't follow this idiosy.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

ForestWomble said:


> Stupid and dangerous, I hope children don't follow this idiosy.


To be fair they have put out some information at the bottom of the page. If you are under the age of 18 you have to get mummy and daddy to sign a consent form before the daring attempt to not eat for 7 days.

If you aren't that brave you can do a 'rolling hunger strike' where you don't eat for 24 hours but then have something to eat before doing another 24 hour 'hunger strike'. Is that a hunger strike?

Lunatics.


----------



## Rafa

Personally, I don't care if they're stupid enough to starve themselves for a week, so long as they don't then decide they need medical attention from an already overburdened NHS.


----------



## Elles

Or you can go on hunger strike for a day, but have water and vitamins and minerals.. Ramadan is stricter. Some of this is fasting, not hunger striking really.


----------



## mrs phas

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion hunger strike.
> 
> _"On November 18th the Extinction Rebellion Global Hunger Strike will officially launch to demand that governments act on the climate and ecological emergency that threatens the extinction of a million species,* the collapse of civilizations and the death of billions of* *humans*"._
> 
> Sadly, I don't think this madness is going to go away anytime soon.


sadly on the 18th I have something far more important to do
I shall be taking my best friend, who, like me is a two years cancer survivor, for her first consultant appointment, after being diagnosed with BC, in the other breast 
To me, and, especially to her, that is far more important, and real, than going on a faux hunger strike, with the brainwashed and unwashed that belong to ER
Let them starve themselves I say, it'll be a few less Darwin Award contenders in the world


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> To be fair they have put out some information at the bottom of the page. If you are under the age of 18 you have to get mummy and daddy to sign a consent form before the daring attempt to not eat for 7 days.
> 
> If you aren't that brave you can do a 'rolling hunger strike' where you don't eat for 24 hours but then have something to eat before doing another 24 hour 'hunger strike'. Is that a hunger strike?
> 
> Lunatics.


Not going to miss their Christmas dinners then! Well timed.


----------



## Beth78

mrs phas said:


> Let them starve themselves I say, it'll be a few less Darwin Award contenders in the world


Wow that's abit dark


----------



## Calvine

The last lot were gutsing themselves in McDonalds (complete with their flags, much to most people's entertainment). It takes a certain kind of arrogance and self-importance for them to even think that anyone gives a monkey's whether they eat or not. It would never occur to me that anyone would worry if I decided not to eat for any length of time; why should they?


----------



## Calvine

Rafa said:


> Personally, I don't care if they're stupid enough to starve themselves for a week, so long as they don't then decide they need medical attention from an already overburdened NHS.


I totally agree: but my guess is that they will have ambulances standing by for them . . . like they have at the Grand National; ''just in case''.


----------



## mrs phas

Beth78 said:


> Wow that's abit dark


Yet my opinion
No one has to agree with it
But
I believe I have a right to express it

Edit cos of autocorrect :Banghead


----------



## Beth78

mrs phas said:


> Yet my opinion
> No one has to agree with it
> By
> I believe I have a right to express it


Oh yes, of course


----------



## Beth78

I might join them in abit of hunger striking, I need to lose some weight


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> To be fair they have put out some information at the bottom of the page. If you are under the age of 18 you have to get mummy and daddy to sign a consent form before the daring attempt to not eat for 7 days.
> 
> If you aren't that brave you can do a 'rolling hunger strike' where you don't eat for 24 hours but then have something to eat before doing another 24 hour 'hunger strike'. Is that a hunger strike?
> 
> Lunatics.


No, a serious hunger strike is where you refuse all food until you are force-fed to keep you alive. Is this mass diet going to be in public (ie while chained to a post, glued to a train), or is it something they intend to do at home? Either way, I doubt we will be moving emaciated corpses from the streets of London. What exactly is this meant to be proving, anyone?


----------



## Beth78

Calvine said:


> No, a serious hunger strike is where you refuse all food until you are force-fed to keep you alive. Is this mass diet going to be in public (ie while chained to a post, glued to a train), or is it something they intend to do at home? Either way, I doubt we will be moving emaciated corpses from the streets of London. What exactly is this meant to be proving, anyone?


They are demanding governments to engage with them in climate emergency meetings.


----------



## Calvine

Beth78 said:


> They are demanding governments to engage with them in climate emergency meetings.


By not eating? They think that will work?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> By not eating? They think that will work?


Well nothing else is working, again having to highlight we are* killing* our planet.

As they say any publicity is good publicity.


----------



## Beth78

Calvine said:


> By not eating? They think that will work?


I dun'no ask them


----------



## Beth78

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well nothing else is working, again having to highlight we are* killing* our planet.
> 
> As they say any publicity is good publicity.


Yeah exactly.
If at 1st you don't succeed try try again.
They have a cause and they are fighting for it.
At least their not lighting fires and looting!


----------



## Rafa

Beth78 said:


> They are demanding governments to engage with them in climate emergency meetings.


Well, if they believe refusing to eat will achieve that, they're even more deluded than originally believed.


----------



## Beth78

Rafa said:


> Well, if they believe refusing to eat will achieve that, they're even more deluded than originally believed.


Depends how far they go I suppose, and how the media cover it.
Only time will tell.


----------



## Rafa

Beth78 said:


> Depends how far they go I suppose, and how the media cover it.
> Only time will tell.


I believe it also depends on whether anyone actually cares and they're on a sticky wicket there.


----------



## Beth78

Rafa said:


> I believe it also depends on whether anyone actually cares and they're on a sticky wicket there.


Protests don't rely solely on public opinion though. 
If they cause enough disruption to the normal function of society and shakeup of the economy the government's of the world might listen.
If the protesting costs more than the change the government's might make a change.
If the environment is on the public's mind the politicians will use that.
That in part is how much of past activism has been successful in changing things.
ER has already succeeded in putting the environment on the political and public agenda.
More and more politicians are jumping on the climate change bandwagon.
There have been positive changes made and I find that encouraging.


----------



## rona

Beth78 said:


> That in part is how much of past activism has been successful in changing things.
> ER has already succeeded in putting the environment on the political and public agenda.
> More and more politicians are jumping on the climate change bandwagon.
> There have been positive changes made and I find that encouraging.


I actually find this rather frightening. I know this time the cause is worthy but if a few extremists can influence governments, then that isn't a good thing surely?


----------



## Beth78

rona said:


> I actually find this rather frightening. I know this time the cause is worthy but if a few extremists can influence governments, then that isn't a good thing surely?


Are the extremists?
To influence the government via peaceful activism and protest could be used for bad. But alot of good has come of past movements. To name afew;
.Ghandi's Salt match
.The ending of American farm people being abused and exploited.
.Suffragettes 
.Racial equality in America

There are probably so many more examples.


----------



## Calvine

Beth78 said:


> I dun'no ask them


 Why the ''roll eyes'' . . . ?


----------



## Calvine

Rafa said:


> Well, if they believe refusing to eat will achieve that, they're even more deluded than originally believed.


Which is pretty much the point I was making in #928.


----------



## Beth78

There have been a fair amount of successful hunger strikes through history.
And as everyone knows it can turn nasty.
I worry for the people taking part as they could harm themselves.
But if done correctly hunger strikes can be quite meaningful and powerful.
How the media report on it will be interesting.


----------



## lullabydream

Beth78 said:


> Are the extremists?
> To influence the government via peaceful activism and protest could be used for bad. But alot of good has come of past movements. To name afew;
> .Ghandi's Salt match
> .The ending of American farm people being abused and exploited.
> .Suffragettes
> .Racial equality in America
> 
> There are probably so many more examples.


Suffragettes didn't get women the vote.

Women got the vote due to them doing men's jobs in the war and the government needed numbers to vote.


----------



## Beth78

lullabydream said:


> Suffragettes didn't get women the vote.
> 
> Women got the vote due to them doing men's jobs in the war and the government needed numbers to vote.


Oh, didn't know this, thank you.


----------



## Siskin

lullabydream said:


> Suffragettes didn't get women the vote.
> 
> Women got the vote due to them doing men's jobs in the war and the government needed numbers to vote.


Also many women of that time although wanted to have the vote didn't like the way the suffragettes were going to such extremes and antagonising everybody with their antics.


----------



## mrs phas

Beth78 said:


> Oh, didn't know this, thank you.


and also not all women got the vote only those over 30 and who could prove their husbands were holders of property

all this is available on google, there really is no reason for the history books to still be upholding the belief, that the suffragettes were the be all, and end all, of women getting emancipation all around



Siskin said:


> Also many women of that time although wanted to have the vote didn't like the way the suffragettes were going to such extremes and antagonising everybody with their antics.


they were just, a political revolutionary ' girls club', who grabbed the headlines by doing irrational things like throwing themselves under horses and going on hunger strikes

*hang on!*
who _does _that remind me of? :Banghead:Banghead


----------



## rona

Beth78 said:


> Are the extremists?
> To influence the government via peaceful activism and protest could be used for bad. But alot of good has come of past movements. To name afew;
> .Ghandi's Salt match
> .The ending of American farm people being abused and exploited.
> .Suffragettes
> .Racial equality in America
> 
> There are probably so many more examples.


None of the above were being financed by people who would exploit the movement as far as I am aware.


----------



## rona

Did you know that "activists" can claim up to £400 a week from funds? It's their biggest cost and is around £100,000 a month, then there's the food bill on top of that. Bloody good earnings that is eh?


----------



## mrs phas

rona said:


> Did you know that "activists" can claim up to £400 a week from funds? It's their biggest cost and is around £100,000 a month, then there's the food bill on top of that. Bloody good earnings that is eh?


thats just shy of what i get *per month *on ESA
maybe i should become an activist


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Did you know that "activists" can claim up to £400 a week from funds? It's their biggest cost and is around £100,000 a month, then there's the food bill on top of that. Bloody good earnings that is eh?


Up to but really what the average is?

Maybe a 100?

Even activists have to eat.


----------



## O2.0

cheekyscrip said:


> Even activists have to eat.


Well... not if they're on a hunger strike....

I'll get my coat :Bag


----------



## mrs phas

cheekyscrip said:


> Up to but really what the average is?
> 
> Maybe a 100?
> 
> Even activists have to eat.


yet, this week, ive been only able to have one meal a day, not through choice or a farce of a hunger strike
and im not eligable for a food bank voucher ( wrong type of esa)


----------



## Rafa

cheekyscrip said:


> Even activists have to eat.


Well, they could try going to work to earn the money to eat rather than clogging up the City Centres and preventing others from earning a living.


----------



## Beth78

rona said:


> Did you know that "activists" can claim up to £400 a week from funds? It's their biggest cost and is around £100,000 a month, then there's the food bill on top of that. Bloody good earnings that is eh?


Is this from donated money or some kind of benefit?


----------



## HarlequinCat

Beth78 said:


> Is this from donated money or some kind of benefit?


They get paid by extinction rebellion £400 a week. That's a lot, you have to wonder at the motivation of some of these people.

Sir Christopher Hohn has given the group a lot of money, yet he has or had 630m invested into Heathrow. I know everyone can be hypocrites in some way but that seems a tad more than being hypocritical. If he had a real interest why invest in something so polluting


----------



## rona

Beth78 said:


> Is this from donated money or some kind of benefit?


Donated money. It's like all of these movements, a few are getting very very rich, it's not those that are getting £400 a week either.


----------



## rona

And..........they are using children to do it 

They are vulnerable and cheap I suppose


----------



## mrs phas

rona said:


> And..........they are using children to do it
> 
> They are vulnerable and cheap I suppose


Wow! Most under 18s get paid £6.15 min wage, so claiming £50 an hour for every man woman and child there, well, they're raking it in (based on 8hr day)
No wonder people are queuing to join

If only our pensioners and disabled were paid as much from donations, rather than a grubby 20p in a collection tin, never mind the government
But then I suppose, according to ER, the pensioners caused the problems in the first place
And
If the disabled die quickly, there's less people in the world and less drain on world resources


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Well... not if they're on a hunger strike....
> 
> I'll get my coat :Bag


@O2.0 wins the Internet as they say. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> Wow! Most under 18s get paid £6.15 min wage, so claiming £50 an hour for every man woman and child there, well, they're raking it in (based on 8hr day)
> No wonder people are queuing to join
> 
> If only our pensioners and disabled were paid as much from donations, rather than a grubby 20p in a collection tin, never mind the government
> But then I suppose, according to ER, the pensioners caused the problems in the first place
> And
> If the disabled die quickly, there's less people in the world and less drain on world resources


David Attenborough thinks that people should be left to die from famine, drought etc as it's nature's way of keeping the numbers down. It's not a long stretch to stop giving people medicine, or letting the disabled fend for themselves and if they can't, tough luck. If he doesn't want starving people fed, I would expect he doesn't want sick people treated either.


----------



## Siskin

Elles said:


> David Attenborough thinks that people should be left to die from famine, drought etc as it's nature's way of keeping the numbers down. It's not a long stretch to stop giving people medicine, or letting the disabled fend for themselves and if they can't, tough luck. If he doesn't want starving people fed, I would expect he doesn't want sick people treated either.


Interesting. Can't remember if it's a hip or knee that David's had replaced. Perhaps he shouldn't have had it done?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> David Attenborough thinks that people should be left to die from famine, drought etc as it's nature's way of keeping the numbers down. It's not a long stretch to stop giving people medicine, or letting the disabled fend for themselves and if they can't, tough luck. If he doesn't want starving people fed, I would expect he doesn't want sick people treated either.


Actually, what he said was more along the lines of it's silly to carry on JUST throwing famine relief supplies around whilst failing to address the underlying reasons causing famines, includng such taboo subjects such as overpopulation, as

a) only providing disaster relief doesn't change or fix anything long term so it will all carry on happeniing all over again, and 
b) if we don't make changes, eventually nature will reach a catastrophic breaking point and then a lot MORE people are screwed

So nothing about not feeding starving people or witholding medical treatment, more about we need to go further than the immediate moment and start thinking long term global sustainability.


----------



## Elles

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...he-way-to-tackle-over-population-8824385.html

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/sep/18/david-attenborough-famine-population


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Interesting article about XR co-founder, Roger Hallam. (Druggie, Gail Bradbrook was the other)

The Welsh farmer who became the mastermind of Extinction Rebellion
_Speaking to the Sunday Times, Mr Hallam said: "When I look at the sky, I see death_." Weirdo.
_
"After leaving his west Wales farm, Mr Hallam went on to study civil disobedience at King's College London_".

That's odd - I wasn't aware of a course to study "civil disobedience" when I went to college 30 years ago - sounds like a hoot. And they've chosen a very cold November week to go on a hunger strike. Definitely not a cult.


----------



## Beth78

samuelsmiles3 said:


> wasn't aware of a course to study "civil disobedience" when I went to college 30 years ago


Times have changed.
You can also study Harry Potter and the age of illusion at Durham uni.


----------



## rona

Beth78 said:


> Times have changed.
> You can also study Harry Potter and the age of illusion at Durham uni.


That's going to be really useful in someones future career path 

Unlike civil disobedience which seems quite lucrative


----------



## Beth78

rona said:


> That's going to be really useful in someones future career path
> 
> Unlike civil disobedience which seems quite lucrative


The Globus Warmos Haltuus spell might come in handy


----------



## rona

Beth78 said:


> The Globus Warmos Haltuus spell might come in handy


I don't know what that means.............obviously my education has huge holes


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I don't know what that means.............obviously my education has huge holes


Black one's no doubt!


----------



## Calvine

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...tion-rebellion-protest-great-ancoats-17388067
. . . just when I'd almost forgotten about them.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...tion-rebellion-protest-great-ancoats-17388067
> . . . just when I'd almost forgotten about them.


Does seem that in this instance they have a point.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion in bid for Christmas No1 with song about climate change

This was what XR were hoping for a month ago but the song, thankfully, hasn't made it into the top hundred. I guess they've pissed off too many normal, decent, hard working people. I'm just surprised that they haven't 'demanded' that it be number 1.


----------



## lullabydream

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellion in bid for Christmas No1 with song about climate change
> 
> This was what XR were hoping for a month ago but the song, thankfully, hasn't made it into the top hundred. I guess they've pissed off too many normal, decent, hard working people. I'm just surprised that they haven't 'demanded' that it be number 1.


LadBaby is going for Christmas No. 1 again... Am thinking another song about sausage rolls will definitely be more popular than Extinction Rebellion. Crazy as it may seem people will put there in hands in their pockets to help those who are struggling this minute and need food on the table now. LadBaby again is supporting The Trussell Trust.. People may care about the future but when the shit hits the fan now, it's the here and now that matters


----------



## Guest

I've had to google this group; never heard of Extinction Rebellion prior to this thread!


----------



## mrs phas

AsahiGo said:


> I've had to google this group; never heard of Extinction Rebellion prior to this thread!


and now you wish you hadnt


----------



## Guest

Dunno, sounds interesting... Is Greta involved in it?


----------



## Boxer123

AsahiGo said:


> I've had to google this group; never heard of Extinction Rebellion prior to this thread!


How did you miss them


----------



## Guest

I literally never watch/listen/read the news as I find it totally depressing, so things like this are totally new and shiny to me just asked in laws about it and massively regretting it


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## samuelsmiles3

So, self indulgent protestors now feel they have the right to shut down a petrol station for a whole day with impunity. Where the hell are the police, and why are these people getting a free ride to disrupt businesses and stop normal people from going about their lives? The general public is showing great restraint at the moment but I'm not sure it will put up with this disruptive nonsense for much longer.

*Extinction Rebellion stage all-day protest at Cambridge BP oil station*


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## MollySmith

samuelsmiles3 said:


> So, self indulgent protestors now feel they have the right to shut down a petrol station for a whole day with impunity. Where the hell are the police, and why are these people getting a free ride to disrupt businesses and stop normal people from going about their lives? The general public is showing great restraint at the moment but I'm not sure it will put up with this disruptive nonsense for much longer.
> 
> *Extinction Rebellion stage all-day protest at Cambridge BP oil station*


There are 2 other petrol stations nearby and when I passed it was perfectly fine. Everyone had ample notice in the local media. There are huge issues over transport in Cambridge and a much bigger story to this and the University will be defensive. Typical Varisty! They are horribly cagey about funds and my home city is the most imbalanced for poverty and privilege. There is a very good video on this but I can't trace it right now.

My feeling is that they mean well but I wish that they had better PR to prevent threads like this and people had more empathy, for we should be protesting about the lack of action but they've become so Marmite. I really did feel a common empathy at first, that at last someone was making a stand but people are too entrenched in comfort. It's not like other rebellions such as Paris in the 19060s or Greenham Common where the public also felt fear. We will all have to experience discomfort to prevent this climate crisis from less car trips, less air travel, meat... it's changing habits and that's really hard. People like cars, like meat. Want to travel. Nobody wants to give up this stuff and then a group come along and highlight this and everyone feels twitchy, goes on the attack. Drive their cars and yell abuse, because of one day of upset. One day. Twenty four hours to highlight a fact that we do have a climate crisis. We all knew it was happening so I'm almost certain anyone daft enough to drive a car into the forecourt did so with intent. And that is shameful.

Cambridge is a good test for XR. Liberal, rammed with cars, a huge traffic crisis, tourism swamping us but a generally open minded city who largely voted Remain, arguably packed with the best brains in science and environment who lead research in climate crisis and give knowledge for free at talks. But if there is protest here, maybe there's reason to change their approach, but I genuinely believe there is always a demographic who will hate because it lays out an uncomfortable truth. When Sir David says the same message in a different way we all nod and wish he was PM. XR do it with protest and flags and we hate them all the more.

Anyways nobody was really put out on Saturday. There was much less traffic on the ring road which was a relief, and as I said there were two stations nearby. And I don't feel any empathy with the owners to be honest. It is a BP franchise after all. They make enough money from the shop on the forecourt which has a captive audience in the local streets. And that's the truth! Just as we've discussed in the Royal Family thread is so easy to be lead by the press and this link proves that.

What worries me is that the media can't f**k about with climate reporting. It affects everyone. I think a lot of that has happened and it's too late to redeem XR in the eyes of many, not that I think they care a great deal and I rather admire them for that alone. Nevertheless I think it sad that we have 49 pages of largely bashing them, doubting climate change and not a lot of positive suggestions. I take it there aren't any PF contributors in XR. Maybe @noushka05 but I think even the most determined PF has given up trying to find hope in these threads.


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## samuelsmiles3

Simon Bramwell, Extinction Rebellion co founder with some interesting views.

XR co-founder filmed calling for 'take down' of civilisation

"Mr Bramwell was filmed at the event saying: "Extinction Rebellion is the spirit of our age. It contains absolutely every dichotomy and absolutely every flaw and beauty that our present society encapsulates. It is white-supremacist, it is racist. It is also very very beautiful and there is incredible people doing incredible work within the organisation. It is also deeply deeply patriarchal and people like Roger Hallam completely and utterly 100 percent exemplify that patriarchy"

"We can't convince people that they are going to maybe *have to see their child die* because we don't simply have the machinery and technology to keep them alive any longer.

"So we have to offer them something else along as these trajectories of civil disobedience and direct sabotage of civilisation..."


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## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellionists, this morning, cause criminal damage outside the Home Office in a 'peaceful' demonstration.






Meanwhile, Patricia MacCormack, a professor at Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge, calls for a phase out of human reproduction to end the climate and ecological emergency. Patricia has a special interest in something called 'queer theory'. No, me neither.
Feminist prof who practices occult calls for human extinction to save planet


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## MilleD

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Extinction Rebellionists, this morning, cause criminal damage outside the Home Office in a 'peaceful' demonstration.


Wow, all 10 of them. Bloody idiots....

Why do they all sound like they have silver spoons stuck firmly in their gobs?


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## MollySmith

That strange breed of protesters. They're all universally odd. God forbid anyone actually spoke to them *Shudder* 

We have the Youth rebellion next week and I've already thought.. bet their parents drive em to private school little sods... but you know what. I'm going to cycle over and ask. Have a chat. Because it bloody beats bleeting on a Pet Forum making assumptions from my arm chair with no evidence. Locally this is what we're dealing with as resident. This is an actual extract from the minutes of a joint committee meeting by the Greater Cambridgeshire Partnership who have been given millions to tackle the infrastructure of Cambridgeshire and the city for the future. As I said, I don't agree with all that XR do but they're up against some seriously woolly shite for brains who actually get paid for doing something....if only they knew which bit of waffle from the three legged something they wanted to cherry pick.... Makes all XR statements look vaguely sensible.


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## samuelsmiles3

MollySmith said:


> That strange breed of protesters. They're all universally odd. God forbid anyone actually spoke to them *Shudder*
> 
> We have the Youth rebellion next week and I've already thought.. bet their parents drive em to private school little sods... but you know what. I'm going to cycle over and ask. Have a chat. Because it bloody beats bleeting on a Pet Forum making assumptions from my arm chair with no evidence. Locally this is what we're dealing with as resident. This is an actual extract from the minutes of a joint committee meeting by the Greater Cambridgeshire Partnership who have been given millions to tackle the infrastructure of Cambridgeshire and the city for the future. As I said, I don't agree with all that XR do but they're up against some seriously woolly shite for brains who actually get paid for doing something....if only they knew which bit of waffle from the three legged something they wanted to cherry pick.... Makes all XR statements look vaguely sensible.
> 
> View attachment 431164


"_Because it bloody beats bleeting on a Pet Forum making assumptions from my arm chair with no evidence."_

I went to a climate change talk in my local town just before Christmas. And you know what, MollySmith - of about 200 people present there was not one teenager there. Not one single teenager. Considering it is their future us deplorable middle aged 'boomers' (or whatever our label is today) have destroyed, that really surprised me.

I wonder why that was? Was it because they were all at home, warm, comfortable, safe, healthy, well nourished and glued to their mobile phones or playstations

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much because Extinction Rebellion and Greta are getting their way. Have you been watching the live feeds from the #netzero climate assembly? Supposedly set up as an independent and democratic assembly to inform a randomly selected group of people to advise the government on energy and climate policy.

I've been watching and it's not a balanced debate. The assembly is not being given balanced information either, infact some of it has been blatant misinformation.

And you must be pleased to know that they'll be taking away my small 1.0 litre Fiat Panda petrol car and ordering me to by an expensive electric car that I won't be able to afford.

And gas boilers. They'll be taken from us, too. But that's what you asked for, isn't it?


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## samuelsmiles3

I think this is the demonstration you're riding to on your bicycle this weekend, MollySmith?

One of their 'demands' is for Cambridge University to divest from fossil fuels within a short time period. I think it was the bursor of the University who, two weeks ago, offered to 'divest' from fossil fuels immediately by turning off the gas central heating. This offer was declined on the grounds that it was too dangerous. (I think the irony was probably lost on the demonstrator).

From reading the article it appears that the police, once again, will be allowing this disruption to go ahead without too much intervention.


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## havoc

'They' aren't going to take away your car or your boiler, new ones will be different as they are built or replaced. Very few new cars are bought, most 'buyers' are on pcp schemes and there will be second hand older electric cars just as there are petrol/diesel ones now.

I am about as confident as you in whether there's a hope in hell of it all happening within the given timescales.

I was an early adopter of an all electric car - I live in a detached house with a driveway and my nice, fast, *personal* charging point was installed free along with a larger cash incentive than is offered today. I come home, plug in and charge up. It's convenient and I know it's always available because it's mine. How are they going to make that possible for a large block of flats or anyone who has to park on the street? How are they going to generate the electricity to keep up with demand?

As for gas boilers - as far as I'm aware the replacement hasn't even been found yet.


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## Magyarmum

My cousin's wife who lives in the States is convinced that China deliberately developed and spread the Coronavirus in order to reduce the overpopulation problem in the country? 

I wonder how many other people share her opinion?


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## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> That strange breed of protesters. They're all universally odd. God forbid anyone actually spoke to them *Shudder*
> 
> We have the Youth rebellion next week and I've already thought.. bet their parents drive em to private school little sods... but you know what. I'm going to cycle over and ask. Have a chat. Because it bloody beats bleeting on a Pet Forum making assumptions from my arm chair with no evidence. Locally this is what we're dealing with as resident. This is an actual extract from the minutes of a joint committee meeting by the Greater Cambridgeshire Partnership who have been given millions to tackle the infrastructure of Cambridgeshire and the city for the future. As I said, I don't agree with all that XR do but they're up against some seriously woolly shite for brains who actually get paid for doing something....if only they knew which bit of waffle from the three legged something they wanted to cherry pick.... Makes all XR statements look vaguely sensible.
> 
> View attachment 431164


Can someone tell them the plural of gas (noun) is gases in UK English. ''Gasses'' is actually a verb.


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## MollySmith

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I think this is the demonstration you're riding to on your bicycle this weekend, MollySmith?
> 
> One of their 'demands' is for Cambridge University to divest from fossil fuels within a short time period. I think it was the bursor of the University who, two weeks ago, offered to 'divest' from fossil fuels immediately by turning off the gas central heating. This offer was declined on the grounds that it was too dangerous. (I think the irony was probably lost on the demonstrator).
> 
> From reading the article it appears that the police, once again, will be allowing this disruption to go ahead without too much intervention.


Yes that's the one. It's more complex that gas boilers as I've said in a past post about another protest and as my post above says about the GCP approach to climate change in this city, speaking as a _resident_ not an XR protester which I am not (btw XR is worldwide not Cambridge centric).


----------



## MollySmith




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## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Can someone tell them the plural of gas (noun) is gases in UK English. ''Gasses'' is actually a verb.


Good luck with that. They're too busy setting up more 'think tanks' and employing consultants, probably, having been investigated in 2017.

It is another reason why locally there are lots of questions being asked about what they're actually _doing_ since there's been absolutely no significant environmental steps taken so far. I have the impression from people I know who are protesting that this is the only way they feel they have a voice against the councils here (and other bodies of course). There was a great video that really shocked me, about the massive divide between poverty and rich. I have no idea how to share it here since it's not on You Tube but I suspect outside the city, nobody much would be terribly interested which is why @samuelsmiles3 might be struggling to understand why protest - I can appreciate that.


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## samuelsmiles3

havoc said:


> *'They' aren't going to take away your car or your boiler,* new ones will be different as they are built or replaced. Very few new cars are bought, most 'buyers' are on pcp schemes and there will be second hand older electric cars just as there are petrol/diesel ones now.
> 
> I am about as confident as you in whether there's a hope in hell of it all happening within the given timescales.
> 
> I was an early adopter of an all electric car - I live in a detached house with a driveway and my nice, fast, *personal* charging point was installed free along with a larger cash incentive than is offered today. I come home, plug in and charge up. It's convenient and I know it's always available because it's mine. How are they going to make that possible for a large block of flats or anyone who has to park on the street? How are they going to generate the electricity to keep up with demand?
> 
> As for gas boilers - as far as I'm aware the replacement hasn't even been found yet.


Yes, that was an over exaggeration on my part but this whole electric car obsession is utter madness.

As you say, we would have to get our electricity from somewhere and the 'greens' hate nuclear so that just leaves us with environmentally destructive wind turbines and toxic, unreliable solar.

And the only alternative to efficient gas boilers is expensive ground source heat pumps if you have a house and garden suitable (c £30,000) or air source heat pumps (c £20,000).

Even if it were possible to flick a switch and, hey presto, we magically transformed our transport and heating systems to all electric, does anyone seriously think it would change our climate?

Would the 'climate crisis' be over?


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## samuelsmiles3

I wonder what would happen if BP, Shell, Texaco, Mobil, British Gas etc. said oh, ok, you don't want our fossil fuels we'll give them to someone who does want and appreciate them. We'll disconnect your gas supplies and we'll shut down all the petrol stations. Byee. Well, at least the climate would be better.


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## havoc

I’m not against trying to improve air quality in cities and it just so happens the possible solutions to that involve using fewer fossil fuels. What doesn’t sit well with me is it being all stick and no carrot for the individual.

Cambridge is a perfect example - because I know it 
There’s a park and ride system but I go into the city infrequently to do a LOT of shopping when I’m there or to buy bulky stuff. I can’t carry a TV from Richer Sounds on the bus to get back to my car! If that park and ride car park had a line of electric cars people could use to go into the city centre it would make a big difference without inconveniencing those who need to load up a car.


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## MollySmith

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I wonder what would happen if BP, Shell, Texaco, Mobil, British Gas etc. said oh, ok, you don't want our fossil fuels we'll give them to someone who does want and appreciate them. We'll disconnect your gas supplies and we'll shut down all the petrol stations. Byee. Well, at least the climate would be better.


 There was a great letter I read a while ago in one of local newspapers (not the one you've quoted from) that does it's utmost to discrete anything that XR do in order to bump up the letters page with ignorance and enough wind to replace any gas boiler. One of the letters said that science isn't doing enough and all scientists should be ashamed. The reply was from one of those scientist who said that they did do enough but nobody wants to lose the things that give them a comfortable life. I think that interesting because the likes of Shell etc fund that but it is hard to work out the alternatives in the first place.

We've looked at biomass but the space required is a lot and though we have a big garden, we can't pipe back to the house. Solar is riddled with issue over companies who now own roofs causing problems with selling houses and buying ourselves is too much money. We are looking at heat pumps and have switched our home energy to Tonik saving heaps of money as a start and I think that's it.

It's why I can see XR's pov but also I feel it's a little misguided. I prefer Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace for sense. The Ethical Consumer for advice on what to buy.

But as I said before, Cambridge really needs a people forum or some better input into GCP and how the councils (made up of different politics persuasions which doesn't help at all... truly lots of hot air there!) to propel it forward. We're one one of the most popular places to live outside London, experiencing a massive growth of housing which is threatening the green belt and paving over the land, and the River Camb can't sustain the volume of housing so our water supply is under threat. Add on great big buses with lots of tourists, a planning department who appear to work in a silo passing plans for more (unethical branded) supermarkets on congested roads. Basically it needs better ideas like the one from @havoc


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## samuelsmiles3

MollySmith said:


> There was a great letter I read a while ago in one of local newspapers (not the one you've quoted from) that does it's utmost to discrete anything that XR do in order to bump up the letters page with ignorance and enough wind to replace any gas boiler. One of the letters said that science isn't doing enough and all scientists should be ashamed. The reply was from one of those scientist who said that they did do enough but nobody wants to lose the things that give them a comfortable life. I think that interesting because the likes of Shell etc fund that but it is hard to work out the alternatives in the first place.
> 
> We've looked at biomass but the space required is a lot and though we have a big garden, we can't pipe back to the house. Solar is riddled with issue over companies who now own roofs causing problems with selling houses and buying ourselves is too much money. We are looking at heat pumps and have switched our home energy to Tonik saving heaps of money as a start and I think that's it.
> 
> It's why I can see XR's pov but also I feel it's a little misguided. I prefer Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace for sense. The Ethical Consumer for advice on what to buy.
> 
> But as I said before, Cambridge really needs a people forum or some better input into GCP and how the councils (made up of different politics persuasions which doesn't help at all... truly lots of hot air there!) to propel it forward. We're one one of the most popular places to live outside London, experiencing a massive growth of housing which is threatening the green belt and paving over the land, and the River Camb can't sustain the volume of housing so our water supply is under threat. Add on great big buses with lots of tourists, a planning department who appear to work in a silo passing plans for more (unethical branded) supermarkets on congested roads. Basically it needs better ideas like the one from @havoc


_"We're one one of the most popular places to live outside London, experiencing a massive growth of housing which is threatening the green belt and paving over the land, and the River Camb can't sustain the volume of housing so *our water supply is under threat*."_

Yes, of course we do need to look after our water - that's of great importance, but it's not "under threat" is it? Your reservoirs in Cambridgeshire are at normal and above normal levels (94% full) according to Anglian Water.

And it can't be blamed on the 'climate crisis' because there's been no trend indicating less rainfall in the UK since these records (MetOffice) began in 1766.









Also, I'm not quite sure what quote you claim I took from a newspaper?


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## MollySmith

samuelsmiles3 said:


> _"We're one one of the most popular places to live outside London, experiencing a massive growth of housing which is threatening the green belt and paving over the land, and the River Camb can't sustain the volume of housing so *our water supply is under threat*."_
> 
> Yes, of course we do need to look after our water - that's of great importance, but it's not "under threat" is it? Your reservoirs in Cambridgeshire are at normal and above normal levels (94% full) according to Anglian Water.
> 
> And it can't be blamed on the 'climate crisis' because there's been no trend indicating less rainfall in the UK since these records (MetOffice) began in 1766.
> View attachment 431354
> 
> 
> Also, I'm not quite sure what quote you claim I took from a newspaper?


Water shortage... Our water company is _*Cambridge Water Company*_
https://www.endsreport.com/article/...ridge-water-says-current-system-unsustainable

Here's a bit more. .

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ver-punts-environment-extraction-chalk-stream
*
Also, I'm not quite sure what quote you claim I took from a newspaper?*

It was the one on XR - you posted on Thursday from the Cambridge Independent. It's a _newspaper_.


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## samuelsmiles3

MollySmith said:


> Water shortage... Our water company is _*Cambridge Water Company*_
> https://www.endsreport.com/article/...ridge-water-says-current-system-unsustainable
> 
> Here's a bit more. .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ver-punts-environment-extraction-chalk-stream
> *
> Also, I'm not quite sure what quote you claim I took from a newspaper?*
> 
> It was the one on XR - you posted on Thursday from the Cambridge Independent. It's a _newspaper_.


River Cam levels are now at normal levels for this time of year, as well as your reservoirs.

*Current River Level:







0.67m, rising*
Within the usual range for this location

Current level recorded at 8:15pm, Saturday 15th February GMT


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## havoc

samuelsmiles3 said:


> River Cam levels are now at normal levels for this time of year, as well as your reservoirs.


Normal means the way they have been recorded for past years doesn't it? That doesn't mean ok for ever increasing demand which I think is the point MollySmith was making. Be it climate change or not, we do have to find alternatives to the way we plunder natural resources because we are using them up and wrecking the planet.


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## samuelsmiles3

Yes, of course abstraction is a consideration. As is water companies fixing broken pipes.

_"England and Wales lost 3.1 billion litres of water every day from leakage, according to the Consumer Council for Water (CCW)."_

I think we are agreed then that this isn't to be blamed on a 'climate crisis'.

ETA. And Cambridge Water seems to be not doing so well itself.

"In contrast, Dee Valley Water reported the biggest increase [of leakage], up 14.1 per cent, followed by Essex and Suffolk Water (9.1 per cent), *Cambridge Water (8.2 per cent)*


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## MollySmith

havoc said:


> Normal means the way they have been recorded for past years doesn't it? That doesn't mean ok for ever increasing demand which I think is the point MollySmith was making. Be it climate change or not, we do have to find alternatives to the way we plunder natural resources because we are using them up and wrecking the planet.


Thank you, yes it was exactly my point.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Yes, of course abstraction is a consideration. As is water companies fixing broken pipes.
> 
> _"England and Wales lost 3.1 billion litres of water every day from leakage, according to the Consumer Council for Water (CCW)."_
> 
> *I think we are agreed then that this isn't to be blamed on a 'climate crisis'.*
> 
> ETA. And Cambridge Water seems to be not doing so well itself.
> 
> "In contrast, Dee Valley Water reported the biggest increase [of leakage], up 14.1 per cent, followed by Essex and Suffolk Water (9.1 per cent), *Cambridge Water (8.2 per cent)*


No we are not agreed. I don't refer to it as 'climate crisis' but climate crisis.


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## havoc

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I think we are agreed then that this isn't to be blamed on a 'climate crisis'.


It isn't a case of blaming climate crisis for a lack of resources. It's our use of those resources which has screwed things up.


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## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> River Cam levels are now at normal levels for this time of year, as well as your reservoirs.
> 
> *Current River Level:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0.67m, rising*
> Within the usual range for this location
> 
> Current level recorded at 8:15pm, Saturday 15th February GMT


I work in the water industry, so I actually understand a lot of this stuff, and MollySmith and havoc are correct here. Rainfall is only part of a far more complex environmental process that ends up providing the water we treat and pump into your taps. Plus we also return large volumes of water back into rivers (via sewage treament plants and lots of pipeline) in locations close to where we draw water off - if we didn't, the rivers would run dry in many locations. Not many areas take the bulk of their water supply from local rivers anyway, a lot comes from deep water table extraction, or even some way away (Birmingham, for example, gets it water from Wales). As for reserviors, they are emergency reserves - if we were ever in the position where you had to rely on them entirely for supply, they would last only a few days at normal usage rates.

Leakage isn't as straightforward as you'd think either. A significant percentage of what is classed as leakage is actually usage - from illicit connections, still unmetered properties with a high density of occupants (a typical immigrant housing scenario) etc. But there's no separate category for any of that stuff, so it gets lumped in with 'leakage.' And, of course, the population is always increasing driving up the need for water. Same amount of water divided by a lot more people = not enough water to go around, and despite metering people are still using more water than ever every day.


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## samuelsmiles3

MollySmith suggests we have a 'climate crisis' and "our water supply is under threat" But, the facts simply don't back that up.

Despite population growth pretty much tripling since the start of the Industrial Revolution, our reservoirs, rivers and the aquifers are all, today, at normal or above normal levels. We have also built hospitals to keep people healthy and alive, housing to keep people warm and safe - all of which requires water. And the rivers are not being polluted with sewerage and chemicals like they were 150 or so years ago. We have clean water coming out of our taps, we can have a shower to keep ourselves clean and to wash our clothes and we can flush our toilets etc. and yet still everything, right now, is normal.

Environment Agency - Monthly water situation report

Groundwater _-
By the end of January, groundwater levels at all but 2 of the sites we report on were classed as *normal or higher for the time of year*; this is similar to the end of December_.
_Groundwater levels at 6sites we report on were classed as* exceptionally high* at the end of January
Of these, 3 had the *highest January end of month values on record; the Northern Chalk aquifer at Grainsby (records since 1977*)
_
Reservoirs _-
At the end of January, around *a third of sites we report on were classed as above normal, notably high or exceptionally high* for the time of year.
Total *reservoir stocks across England at the end of January were at 93% capacity*. This is a slight increase from the end of December. At a regional scale, total reservoir stocks were above the long term average in all regions. Regional reservoir stocks ranged from 89% total capacity in east England to 96% in central England
_
UK river flows_ - 
River flows increased at almost all of the rivers we report on compared to last week. *Two-thirds of the rivers that we report on are classed as above normal or higher, with 6 sites being exceptionally high. *The River Cam(Cambridgeshire) remains below normal or the time of year
_
And a study showing _how we have become more resilient to drought despite population and infrastructure growth _- *Major droughts in England and Wales, 1800-2006*_ (pdf - you'll have to google it)

Concluding remarks 
Society and water resource management systems adapt over time to the vagaries of the climate. *Notwithstanding more than a five-fold increase in water demand over the last 100 years, England and Wales is now more resilient to drought stress than it was in the nineteenth century*.
_
Water is precious, I know, and we can always do better but_...._.ahh , what's the point - blame everything on humanity and the 'climate crisis'_. _We're all doomed_.

_


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## MollySmith

I'm stepping away from this thread @samuelsmiles3 . We disagree and I have other things to do which aren't arguing on a Pet Forum.

I'm having a particularly bad time with my mental health and I do worry about the planet, the tremendous loss of life from the climate crisis. Whilst I don't agree with all that XR do, I find dealing with deniers, blamers or ignorant impossible right now. I don't know which category you fall within or cross between but spending hours writing on here for you to cherry pick is an utter waste of my time.


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## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> I work in the water industry, so I actually understand a lot of this stuff, and MollySmith and havoc are correct here. Rainfall is only part of a far more complex environmental process that ends up providing the water we treat and pump into your taps. Plus we also return large volumes of water back into rivers (via sewage treament plants and lots of pipeline) in locations close to where we draw water off - if we didn't, the rivers would run dry in many locations. Not many areas take the bulk of their water supply from local rivers anyway, a lot comes from deep water table extraction, or even some way away (Birmingham, for example, gets it water from Wales). As for reserviors, they are emergency reserves - if we were ever in the position where you had to rely on them entirely for supply, they would last only a few days at normal usage rates.
> 
> Leakage isn't as straightforward as you'd think either. A significant percentage of what is classed as leakage is actually usage - from illicit connections, still unmetered properties with a high density of occupants (a typical immigrant housing scenario) etc. But there's no separate category for any of that stuff, so it gets lumped in with 'leakage.' And, of course, the population is always increasing driving up the need for water. Same amount of water divided by a lot more people = not enough water to go around, and despite metering people are still using more water than ever every day.


Thank you so much for this interesting post.


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## Calvine

@samuelsmiles3: 
Tonight C5 at 9 pm:

https://tv24.co.uk/b/q5tbo0-d8l


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## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion are 'occupying' a road in Cambridge for a week starting from today. Here is an ambulance being forced to turn back and find an alternative route.


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## MollySmith

The above is more proof that @samuelsmiles3 doesn't know the area. The road being blocked isn't a main route to Addenbrooke's. There is a road parallel to this which is the preferred route of the paramedics. I know this because my neighbour is one. The ambulance is making a right hand turn towards the city or heading down the Fen Causeway which is ahead of it. If you must troll @samuelsmiles3 do so with accuracy.

I expect like @havoc 's post you will ignore this, as you did the last post when I corrected you about Cambridge. But you are wrong in your post here too.


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## samuelsmiles3

It was reported in the local newspaper -

"An ambulance has already been spotted having to turn around when faced with the [blockade"]


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It was reported in the local newspaper -
> 
> "An ambulance has already been spotted having to turn around when faced with the [blockade"]


I'm sure they have to leave Addensbrooke as well as go in, and it looks as if there are properties along the road they've blocked?


----------



## mrs phas

yeah, blocking entrances/exits to addenbrookes is bound to get them extra support and people on their side 
hopefully if any of them fall ill, within this week long demonstration, and,need a hospital
Addebrookes will tell them to sod off and find their ideal hospital, that doesnt use fossil fuels, is totally reliant on green materials, and, doesnt use medication that has previously been tested on animals ( which would be illegal byw, everything has to go through animal testing before human testing)
( they wont, theyre far too lovely to do that, but they flipping well should)
believe me, if theyre not gone by the time my son has his next cancer check, ill drive straight through them, no second thoughts and no guilt about doing it


----------



## Magyarmum

http://www.globalconstructionreview...qWBK1nZnwXeFWGOlc5XpO88jMF0NEsxTBp742bpYFVGpY

*Dam the North Sea: Dutch scientist proposes €750bn mega dams to protect Europe from floods*


----------



## havoc

mrs phas said:


> yeah, blocking entrances/exits to addenbrookes is bound to get them extra support and people on their side


Is that what they were doing? 
I have no time for them btw.


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> http://www.globalconstructionreview...qWBK1nZnwXeFWGOlc5XpO88jMF0NEsxTBp742bpYFVGpY
> 
> *Dam the North Sea: Dutch scientist proposes €750bn mega dams to protect Europe from floods*


at least we know they know what theyre doing
isnt something like 3/4 of the netherlands, as a whole, reclaimed land?


----------



## Happy Paws2

mrs phas said:


> at least we know they know what theyre doing
> _isnt something like 3/4 of the netherlands, as a whole, reclaimed land?_


I think your right.

If the Dutch can't build a giant Dam no one can't.


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It was reported in the local newspaper -
> 
> "An ambulance has already been spotted having to turn around when faced with the [blockade"]





rona said:


> I'm sure they have to leave Addensbrooke as well as go in, and it looks as if there are properties along the road they've blocked?





mrs phas said:


> yeah, blocking entrances/exits to addenbrookes is bound to get them extra support and people on their side
> hopefully if any of them fall ill, within this week long demonstration, and,need a hospital
> Addebrookes will tell them to sod off and find their ideal hospital, that doesnt use fossil fuels, is totally reliant on green materials, and, doesnt use medication that has previously been tested on animals ( which would be illegal byw, everything has to go through animal testing before human testing)
> ( they wont, theyre far too lovely to do that, but they flipping well should)
> believe me, if theyre not gone by the time my son has his next cancer check, ill drive straight through them, no second thoughts and no guilt about doing it


Disclaimer: I am not condoning but I will correct geographical inaccuracies...again.

The road block is about 2 miles from Addenbrooke's. It is not anywhere near the entrances to the site. As I said above....did anyone bother to read that... THE ROAD THAT RUNS PARALLEL TO THE ONE BLOCKED IS THE PREFERRED ROUTE TO ADDENBROOKES. 
The 'local paper' is known for publishing syndicated content and is published by Reach, formerly Trinity Mirror also known as the newspaper group behind phone hacking. They are not a local paper.
In Penrith apparently XR are planting 1000 trees for a farmer. They'd perhaps do better to help the real local paper here who have a campaign to do just that, to plant trees. If our council would supply the land on which to do it or the university.


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> MollySmith suggests we have a 'climate crisis' and "our water supply is under threat" But, the facts simply don't back that up.
> 
> Despite population growth pretty much tripling since the start of the Industrial Revolution, our reservoirs, rivers and the aquifers are all, today, at normal or above normal levels. We have also built hospitals to keep people healthy and alive, housing to keep people warm and safe - all of which requires water. And the rivers are not being polluted with sewerage and chemicals like they were 150 or so years ago. We have clean water coming out of our taps, we can have a shower to keep ourselves clean and to wash our clothes and we can flush our toilets etc. and yet still everything, right now, is normal.
> 
> Environment Agency - Monthly water situation report
> 
> Groundwater -
> By the end of January, groundwater levels at all but 2 of the sites we report on were classed as *normal or higher for the time of year*; this is similar to the end of December.
> Groundwater levels at 6sites we report on were classed as* exceptionally high* at the end of January
> Of these, 3 had the *highest January end of month values on record; the Northern Chalk aquifer at Grainsby (records since 1977*)
> 
> Reservoirs -
> At the end of January, around *a third of sites we report on were classed as above normal, notably high or exceptionally high* for the time of year.
> Total *reservoir stocks across England at the end of January were at 93% capacity*. This is a slight increase from the end of December. At a regional scale, total reservoir stocks were above the long term average in all regions. Regional reservoir stocks ranged from 89% total capacity in east England to 96% in central England
> 
> UK river flows -
> River flows increased at almost all of the rivers we report on compared to last week. *Two-thirds of the rivers that we report on are classed as above normal or higher, with 6 sites being exceptionally high. *The River Cam(Cambridgeshire) remains below normal or the time of year


We had a very wet winter, of course the various resources are high at this precise moment in time. Long term water stress, which is the salient point here, is a completely different kettle of fish.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> And a study showing how we have become more resilient to drought despite population and infrastructure growth - *Major droughts in England and Wales, 1800-2006* (pdf - you'll have to google it)
> 
> Concluding remarks
> Society and water resource management systems adapt over time to the vagaries of the climate. *Notwithstanding more than a five-fold increase in water demand over the last 100 years, England and Wales is now more resilient to drought stress than it was in the nineteenth century*.


Well, yes. We have much better technology available, for one thing, and plenty of computing power and data to help manage all that technology. But that doesn't change the fact that potable water is a finite resource facing increasing demand, and in some places we're reaching the limits of available resources.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Water is precious, I know, and we can always do better but.....ahh , what's the point - blame everything on humanity and the 'climate crisis'. We're all doomed.


Now, come on - MollySmith carefully said the problem in that specific Cambridge area was one of average demand threatening to outstrip average supply. That's primarily a population location issue, and if the population continues to increase in already stressed areas then it's a situation that's going to get worse, not better - hence the water supply being under threat. Council planners really need to start blocking housing developments in such areas, but developers know how to - er - clear that particular hurdle, and then once connected it becomes the water companies problem. Not that it can't be managed, of course, but most people wouldn't take kindly to the more drastic measures that would eventually be required, like lowered pressure or limited hours of supply - well, until they got used to it.

And despite your scepticism, climate change will play a significant part in water supply/demand. We may call England a green and pleasant land and complain about how it always seems to be raining, but the reality is we're only green and pleasant because we are in a temperate climate zone, and at times we actually get less rainfail than, say, Sudan, or even the Sahara. Should the UK grow generally hotter (increasing general water demand) and/or receive less rainfall as a result of climate change, that's going to be a nasty problem.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> Disclaimer: I am not condoning but I will correct geographical inaccuracies...again.
> 
> The road block is about 2 miles from Addenbrooke's.
> The 'local paper' is known for publishing syndicated content and is published by Reach, formerly Trinity Mirror also known as the newspaper group behind phone hacking. They are not a local paper.



what a shame
I go via the A1307,
so may not be able to play human bowling
pshaw!!


----------



## MollySmith

I simply think that today we've been taught to check our sources. To be s bit more careful about what we say. It should not take a death to do that but it somewhat sickens me that so much media gets away with bull crap and it's shared on here and believed.

As I've said I place my funds with FoE. But what you read and what is real are so different.

Reach plc is apparently the new face of a company whose actions ruined lives through phone hacking. The Cambridge News readership is largely in the C D demographic, middle to late aged, mid to right politics. In short not a large part of the demographic in a left leaning University city. The subscription ratings are dying. I can say this with some knowledge as I worked with Fleet Street advertising teams.

The headings like the one that seduced @samuelsmiles3 are click bait designed to appeal to its audience. The rest of you leapt on the bandwagon and nobody checked. You could easily have done so. You chose to believe a paper over me. They've reeled you in so easily. This is how media twist stories. Sometimes with devastating results. The loss of planet is too bigger one to consider but the media are showing here how click bait can alter that narrative too.

The reason click bate headings matter is that they drive traffic to their website which means better figures for advertising. (Also see the Sun and Daily Wail on reporting the death of Caroline Flack. People are saying boycott the paper but click bait headings mean they are unlikely to see much downturn in website traffic). It's advertising that keeps papers in print, not readers and traffic to sites is the key figure in attracting advertising, but the Cambridge News needs some local content and where better than a letters page. Publish inflammatory articles and the keyboard warriors write in and fill the paper. Not need to edit, bung it in, print. Easy.

What you won't know is that one girl in XR has the blessing of her mother this week. Her mum is in that hospital, very unwell. They won't report that as it isn't a story their readers want to hear.

The 2% of truth is that the ambulance was on a road. That XR have blocked a road. That there are many roads to the hospital and that hospital is not on that road. You are welcome to look up both on Google maps. Addenbrookes is the name of the hospital on Hill Road in Cambridge (important that, Hills Road). The site of the road block is Trumpington Road. The building in the photo above is the Royal Cambridge Hotel. Different road. The casualty department* of the hospital is just about 5 min walk down Trumpington Road!

*It is now a restaurant and closed to patients in 1970s..


----------



## MollySmith

Note to self


----------



## samuelsmiles3

MollySmith said:


> I simply think that today we've been taught to check our sources. To be s bit more careful about what we say. It should not take a death to do that but it somewhat sickens me that so much media gets away with bull crap and it's shared on here and believed.
> 
> As I've said I place my funds with FoE. But what you read and what is real are so different.
> 
> Reach plc is apparently the new face of a company whose actions ruined lives through phone hacking. The Cambridge News readership is largely in the C D demographic, middle to late aged, mid to right politics. In short not a large part of the demographic in a left leaning University city. The subscription ratings are dying. I can say this with some knowledge as I worked with Fleet Street advertising teams.
> 
> The headings like the one that seduced @samuelsmiles3 are click bait designed to appeal to its audience. The rest of you leapt on the bandwagon and nobody checked. You could easily have done so. You chose to believe a paper over me. They've reeled you in so easily. This is how media twist stories. Sometimes with devastating results. The loss of planet is too bigger one to consider but the media are showing here how click bait can alter that narrative too.
> 
> The reason click bate headings matter is that they drive traffic to their website which means better figures for advertising. (Also see the Sun and Daily Wail on reporting the death of Caroline Flack. People are saying boycott the paper but click bait headings mean they are unlikely to see much downturn in website traffic). It's advertising that keeps papers in print, not readers and traffic to sites is the key figure in attracting advertising, but the Cambridge News needs some local content and where better than a letters page. Publish inflammatory articles and the keyboard warriors write in and fill the paper. Not need to edit, bung it in, print. Easy.
> 
> What you won't know is that one girl in XR has the blessing of her mother this week. Her mum is in that hospital, very unwell. They won't report that as it isn't a story their readers want to hear.
> 
> The 2% of truth is that the ambulance was on a road. That XR have blocked a road. That there are many roads to the hospital and that hospital is not on that road. You are welcome to look up both on Google maps. Addenbrookes is the name of the hospital on Hill Road in Cambridge (important that, Hills Road). The site of the road block is Trumpington Road. The building in the photo above is the Royal Cambridge Hotel. Different road. The casualty department* of the hospital is just about 5 min walk down Trumpington Road!
> 
> *It is now a restaurant and closed to patients in 1970s..


Mollysmith, yesterday, I did my research about the facts of our water supply situation (post #1003) but, at that point, you decided it was time to stop debating. That's cool, I can fully understand why you didn't want to debate those facts.You said you had more important things to do with your day. You then modified your post to attack me personally with the usual lazy accusations of denier, blamer, ignorant. Again, that's cool - it's what happens when you take the position of challenging the so called 'greens'.

About the Extinction Rebellion blockade and the ambulance photograph? I'm quite prepared to admit that I may have got that wrong, I read the newspaper report and other sources and understood the claims of it being turned away to be true. The fact still remains, though, that that blockade is/was seriously affecting the safety of people in Cambridge.

Anyway, just to remind you, the aquifers, reservoirs and rivers are all normal or above normal right now (except your river Cam) - rainfall has seen no decline since the records began in the 18th century (MetOffice) and despite massive infrastructure increases like hospitals and homes to keep people warm, comfortable, safe, healthy and alive, we have more resilience to drought than in the 19th century.

You can check everything here if you care to look.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> The headings like the one that seduced @samuelsmiles3 are click bait designed to appeal to its audience. The rest of you leapt on the bandwagon and nobody checked. You could easily have done so. *You chose to believe a paper over me*. They've reeled you in so easily.


[/QUOTE]

I did not read the paper, but was reacting to your biased reply, as there must be many people that that ambulance or even a hypothetical ambulance if you like,could not get to or were in the position of hypothetically wait longer for because of a road block, for whatever reason that road was blocked.

Also, many may not see your posts as they have you on ignore or may also realize that your own posts may be rather more bandwagon than other information,they are certainly more insulting, but I'm sure you know that


----------



## havoc

samuelsmiles3 said:


> The fact still remains, though, that that blockade is/was seriously affecting the safety of people in Cambridge.


You may be right but I then have to question why the same claim isn't made when it's road works or other reasons for road closures and diversions.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

.


havoc said:


> You may be right but I then have to question why the same claim isn't made when it's road works or other reasons for road closures and diversions.


It's true, but I suppose that's because, although we moan about it, people understand that normal road closures are made for genuine reasons. Like fixing water gas supplies so we don't all freeze to death, electricity cabling so we can all talk on the internet and cook stuff, water pipes so we can clean ourselves and drink, and fix potholes so cyclists aren't thrown off of their bikes.

What I don't understand is why Extinction Rebellion is getting a free pass to do these blockades. What extra rights allow them to do this with seeming impunity?


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> If you must troll @samuelsmiles3 do so with accuracy.


Samuelsmiles3 is one poster I would definitely not accuse of being a troll. And mods are forever pulling people up for accusing people of being trolls (even when they obviously are) when they have no proof . . . just saying.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Police are using emergency powers to close two city centre roads.

_"In order to ensure Cambridge city remains open for business, police are using emergency powers to close Fen Causeway and Trumpington Road."

''_Emergency powers' for Extinction Rebellion who make vague and undemocratic demands? Why? Would I be allowed to form a group called We Demand More Fossil Fuels for Life, pre-warn the authorities that my group would be shutting down roads in my town, and then blockade those roads. It would not be allowed.

This is wrong. This is not democracy, and the police are rolling out the red carpet for them.


----------



## Calvine

havoc said:


> You may be right but I then have to question why the same claim isn't made when it's road works or other reasons for road closures and diversions.


 Those are done for a reason and under supervision, likely with notices advising drivers which alternative route they should take. If this ambulance had to make a three-point turn it would obviously add to the journey time. A friend of mine fell and cut her head requiring about 15 stitches and was advised that she had better get someone to take her to hospital by car as they could not get an ambulance to her for two hours. No doubt even longer if these clowns start blocking roads.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Thousands sign petition to end week-long Extinction Rebellion protest in Cambridge

_"Will the police ever act, or will they let anarchy be unleashed on Cambridge?"_

I think (hope) this is reaching a tipping point, to use a 'climate crisis' phrase. People are running out of patience.


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Mollysmith, yesterday, I did my research about the facts of our water supply situation (post #1003) but, at that point, you decided it was time to stop debating. That's cool, I can fully understand why you didn't want to debate those facts.You said you had more important things to do with your day. You then modified your post to attack me personally with the usual lazy accusations of denier, blamer, ignorant. Again, that's cool - it's what happens when you take the position of challenging the so called 'greens'.


With respect, you did not 'research' - you linked some weekly/monthly articles that superficially reinforce a 'we're alright really' position because they say that general water levels are fine at this fleeting snapshot of a moment in time, whilst ignoring the specific situation MollySmith was referring to. Essentially, the only fact proved was that we've had above average rainfall a lot lately.

Incidentally, if you had pulled the same articles after a couple of years of dry winters, you'd be getting a very different (and very scary) set of data. I know - this kind of data is our bread and butter.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> About the Extinction Rebellion blockade and the ambulance photograph? I'm quite prepared to admit that I may have got that wrong, I read the newspaper report and other sources and understood the claims of it being turned away to be true. The fact still remains, though, that that blockade is/was seriously affecting the safety of people in Cambridge.
> 
> Anyway, just to remind you, the aquifers, reservoirs and rivers are all normal or above normal right now (except your river Cam) - rainfall has seen no decline since the records began in the 18th century (MetOffice) and despite massive infrastructure increases like hospitals and homes to keep people warm, comfortable, safe, healthy and alive, we have more resilience to drought than in the 19th century.
> 
> You can check everything here if you care to look.


And, just to remind you, rainfall may not have changed, but the demand for water is ever increasing. Like it or not, we are starting to reach the limits of what can be sustained with the available resources. You can try and put the blame for that wherever you like, but it doesn't change the basic fact that available potable water is both a fluctuating and finite resource, and if (when) demand begins to outstrip supply on a regular basis all the 'resilience' is only good for so long - a few months tops, to be brutally honest.

Naturally, restrictions and rationing would come in to play a long time before reserves were allowed to deplete to critical levels, but the fact remains - at any given moment we're a lot closer to water shortages than most people would care to think about. That you don't usually have to worry about this is thanks to a small army of people proactively managing your water supply, but even we have limits, and we certainly can't make it rain on demand.

Incidentally, I should clarify that I am no fan of ER. But I do know a thing or two about the precarious nature of our water supply


----------



## samuelsmiles3

With respect Jesthar, it _was _research. 

Once MollySmith posted the Guardian article (does that count as research by MollySmith?) about the river Cam running very low for a while last summer, I decided to research water levels in reservoirs, aquifers, rivers, rainfall history and other studies. My research didn't show anything to alarm me, quite the opposite infact, it reassured me that we are doing things pretty well taking into consideration the population increase, housing, hospitals, infrastructure etc.

And, just to remind you, predictions of more or less rainfall in the future due to climate change are just that - predictions. However, the vast majority of those predictions suggest that we will get most of that extra rain in the winter when it is most advantageous because there would be less evaporation. I'm more optimistic that we can adapt and make our lives even more comfortable. Spain has a warmer climate than ours, as do many other countries, and they also adapt to their climate. We always have to adapt - it's what we have done forever and, from what I can see, we're not on the verge of something "nasty" happening. That is the sort of thing the alarmists have also been telling us since we first set foot on this planet.

I'll say it again. I do understand how precious water is, I do use it extremely carefully and I am thankful that I have a clean supply out of my taps.


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> With respect Jesthar, it _was _research.
> 
> Once MollySmith posted the Guardian article (does that count as research by MollySmith?) about the river Cam running very low for a while last summer, I decided to research water levels in reservoirs, aquifers, rivers, rainfall history and other studies. My research didn't show anything to alarm me, quite the opposite infact, it reassured me that we are doing things pretty well taking into consideration the population increase, housing, hospitals, infrastructure etc.


If you wish to classify a quick google of high level statistics as on a par with decades of experience in the water industry, feel free. 



samuelsmiles3 said:


> And, just to remind you, predictions of more or less rainfall in the future due to climate change are just that - predictions. However, the vast majority of those predictions suggest that we will get most of that extra rain in the winter when it is most advantageous because there would be less evaporation. I'm more optimistic that we can adapt and make our lives even more comfortable. Spain has a warmer climate than ours, as do many other countries, and they also adapt to their climate. We always have to adapt - it's what we have done forever and, *from what I can see, we're not on the verge of something "nasty" happening*. That is the sort of thing the alarmists have also been telling us since we first set foot on this planet.


Well, no. We don't publish the scary data.

I will say it again. We are not_ visibly_ on the verge of something 'nasty' happening because an awful lot of dedicated people spend their working days making sure it doesn't, and as log as we're lucky with the weather there is still enough to go round. But there will come a point where that will not be enough, and at this moment we are closer to that point than most people would like to consider. What you see, and what the reality is, are (as is so often the case) two quite different things. I'm no doom monger, just very, very aware of the reality.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'll say it again. I do understand how precious water is, I do use it extremely carefully and I am thankful that I have a clean supply out of my taps.


And hopefully that will be the case for many years to come  Trust me, none of us want the water supply to become a serious problem.


----------



## havoc

Calvine said:


> Those are done for a reason and under supervision,* likely with notices advising drivers which alternative route they should take*.


I've been getting that info on my newsfeed for the past two weeks - where it would happen and the diversions. I don't even live in Cambridge - nearly 30 miles away so if my location has picked up the info I'd guess those who need to know will have been informed. It's all been well publicised. I understand that people would rather these demos didn't happen, I'm in that camp. What I don't understand is why these particular diversions are a great threat to the safety of the people of Cambridge when others aren't.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I'm more than happy to concede to your decades of experience, of course. Now I'm very interested to learn more, especially your statement that "there will come a point when there will not be enough".

Have you got some research you can link me to that I can read that would give a better idea of when this could happen. Taking everything into account which would have to include expected rainfall in future?


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'm more than happy to concede to your decades of experience, of course. Now I'm very interested to learn more, especially your statement that "there will come a point when there will not be enough".
> 
> Have you got some research you can link me to that I can read that would give a better idea of when this could happen. Taking everything into account which would have to include expected rainfall in future?


Come on, at it's most basic level it's not exactly rocket science 

Average amount of water available = constant (you posted that graph yourself)
Water demand = increasing (increasing population = increased demand across all areas, and people individually are generally using more water per day too - around 140 litres per day person on average)

If those basic facts don't change, eventually there won't be enough to go around. Parts of the UK are _already_ suffering water stress, which is why it only takes one severe event like the 2018 heatwave to cause reserviors to run almost dry.

Now, a 'taking everything into account' prediction of the future - well, if you wish to lend me a working crystal ball, or a TARDIS, I'll happily oblige. You may, however, wish to start with the Environment Agency and their insights into water shortage. Their current public estimate is around 25 years to reach the point of severe supply deficit.


----------



## Calvine

havoc said:


> I've been getting that info on my newsfeed for the past two weeks - where it would happen and the diversions. I don't even live in Cambridge - nearly 30 miles away so if my location has picked up the info I'd guess those who need to know will have been informed. It's all been well publicised. I understand that people would rather these demos didn't happen, I'm in that camp. What I don't understand is why these particular diversions are a great threat to the safety of the people of Cambridge when others aren't.


The ambulance driver obviously didn't get the message though.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I will have a look at the Environment Agency website again a little later, although last time I did that you accused me of not researching properly.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Extinction Rebellion has now desecrated the Cambridge Trinity College lawn, all in the name of some mythical climate emergency. Well, if nothing else, this should finish this disgraceful, anarchic group off for good.










ETA Here is a video. Where are the police? Infact where are the good people of Cambridge? If the authorities aren't going to stop this, the people should.


----------



## mrs phas

BBC News - Cambridge Trinity College lawn dug up by Extinction Rebellion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-51534446

At least swampy et al protested by living UP the trees they wanted to save, not by digging up other trees (obvs this is Green space for green space)
Pray, tell me, where does destroying one area of existing greensward, help save another

Eye for an eye?
Well then the whole world ends up blind, doesn't it!


----------



## MollySmith

Disappointing really disappointing. Lawns are important eco systems
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...up-cambridge-college-lawn-trinity-fossil-fuel


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I will have a look at the Environment Agency website again a little later, although last time I did that you accused me of not researching properly.


Now, come on. Improper research can also include good data, incorrectly interpreted.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Jesthar said:


> Now, come on. Improper research can also include good data, incorrectly interpreted.


You see, I'm a lot more optimistic than you Jesthar. I'm sure 25 years will come and then we will be given another 25 years but, necessity being the mother of invention, we will adapt. We always have.

Desalination, properly looking after our rivers, fixing leaking pipes. There is so much we can do.

We can put rainwater harvesting systems into all of our homes which would be used for washing machines, showering, cleaning and flushing the loo. And rainwater harvesting systems in all businesses and offices and shops. Everywhere. Massive ones supplying millions of litres of water.

And we can produce grass seed for our lawns and golf courses and bowls lawns that is drought resistant.

I'm positive. We can build beautiful reservoirs and build homes around those reservoirs and we can plant trees around those reservoirs and encourage wildlife to thrive in those reservoirs. And because global warming is going to give us more rain in our winters they will always be full.

We have become more resilient to drought than in the 19th century despite massive population and infrastructure increases.

Not sure I'll be on this forum in 25 years - not sure I'll be breathing in 25 years so I won't be here to find out if I was right or I was wrong. But I'm sure we'll be fine.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

This is an interesting article written by Caspar Hewett who appears to have very good credentials. He disputes the reasons for claims from Sir James Bevan, chief executive of the Environment Agency, that we are on the verge of a water crisis within 25 years.

Why is water-rich Britain predicting water shortages?

_"Water is the one resource on Earth that can never run out. It is infinitely recyclable. It even recycles itself through the hydrological cycle: water evaporates and falls back to Earth. In the UK, where we have a temperate climate and high rainfall, all we need to do is catch the rain and store it in the right places"._


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> You see, I'm a lot more optimistic than you Jesthar. I'm sure 25 years will come and then we will be given another 25 years but, necessity being the mother of invention, we will adapt. We always have.


Now, don't go confusing a preference for realism with lack of optimism. 



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Desalination, properly looking after our rivers, fixing leaking pipes. There is so much we can do.


Ah, desalination. Hugely energy intensive, can also be chemically intensive, and produces a large amount of toxic byproducts that have to be carefully disposed of in order to avoid environmental damage. There is a desal plant in the UK, but it's rarely been brought online since it was completed (because of those reasons) and now needs a complete overhaul to make it servicable again.

Properly looking after rivers requires money, and given the current state of public finances I'm not sure where you would propose to get the funding required.

As to fixing pipes, water companies are generally fixing as many as they can find and afford to.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> We can put rainwater harvesting systems into all of our homes which would be used for washing machines, showering, cleaning and flushing the loo. And rainwater harvesting systems in all businesses and offices and shops. Everywhere. Massive ones supplying millions of litres of water.


Don't forget watering the garden  Toilets, yes, but don't forget you'll need to install a whole separate pipework system to distribute the water - unless you use buckets, of course. If you want to use it for anything like washing machines, you'll need some kind of treatment system installed too - nothing fancy, but it will require upkeep. Plus you'll need a garden you can dig up to bury the tank under, as underground is really the only safe place to store the water where it will constantly be under 20 degrees C, or there is a risk of Legonnaires and other nasty bugs breeding. Oh, and pumps, filters and a management control system, of course. All of this costs money, and is much easier to do for new builds (and it really should be mandatory for new builds, but it isn't) - I don't see the government encouraging it financially, either, given how they have slashed solar incentives for private individuals. Too much profit to be made for their mates 

It's not advisable to use non-potable water for personal bathing, in case you swallow some - same goes for cooking, washing up and cleaning.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> And we can produce grass seed for our lawns and golf courses and bowls lawns that is drought resistant.


Or just don't water the existing grass - it will go brown but survive just fine. 



samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'm positive. We can build beautiful reservoirs and build homes around those reservoirs and we can plant trees around those reservoirs and encourage wildlife to thrive in those reservoirs. And because global warming is going to give us more rain in our winters they will always be full.


Reservoirs, as already explained, are a supplementary emergency supply, primarily used for flow management and topping up. You simply can't store enough water to meet demand for more than a few days, and people in general object vehemently to flooding vast areas of existing environmental habitat - or, indeed, losing their homes to such a scheme. Global warming may give us more rain or it may not, but increased temperatures will also increase water demand.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> We have become more resilient to drought than in the 19th century despite massive population and infrastructure increases.
> 
> Not sure I'll be on this forum in 25 years - not sure I'll be breathing in 25 years so I won't be here to find out if I was right or I was wrong. But I'm sure we'll be fine.


I hope so. I just prefer to maintain a practical mindset, with a side order of understanding human nature. I'll certainly be doing what I can, but history suggests most will kepe their heads firmly in the sand until circumstances force them to act


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## samuelsmiles3

@Jesthar, today there are as many people living in London as there were in the whole of the United Kingdom in 1800, and every one of them has access to clean water. And we have better resilience to drought than then because of the infrastructure put in place. That is amazing. But now, according to Environment Agency chief Sir James Bevan, we only have 25 years before facing the "jaws of death"?

Caspar Hewett, who is far more qualified than me, explains what he thinks the problem is and offers the solutions in the last article I posted. How would you respond to him and his comments, like the one below for example?

_"It is ludicrous that a water-rich country like the UK should be predicting water shortages. It shows a real lack of vision and an unwillingness to invest in the future. There is no reason not to take the necessary steps to guarantee a plentiful supply of water for the next century and beyond."_


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## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> @Jesthar, today there are as many people living in London as there were in the whole of the United Kingdom in 1800, and every one of them has access to clean water. And we have better resilience to drought than then because of the infrastructure put in place. That is amazing. But now, according to Environment Agency chief Sir James Bevan, we only have 25 years before facing the "jaws of death"?


Um, because fresh water availability is also around the same level as in the 1800s, but demand keeps going up? People in the 18th century didn't power-shower and wash their hair every day, for example.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Caspar Hewett, who is far more qualified than me, explains what he thinks the problem is and offers the solutions in the last article I posted. How would you respond to him and his comments, like the one below for example?
> 
> _"It is ludicrous that a water-rich country like the UK should be predicting water shortages. It shows a real lack of vision and an unwillingness to invest in the future. There is no reason not to take the necessary steps to guarantee a plentiful supply of water for the next century and beyond."_


To be honest, I'm baffled that he can generalise the UK as 'water rich' when significant areas of it are actually water stressed.

And that he regards reservoirs as a large scale practical solution when the maths doesn't support that. Take the massive Kielder Water reservoir he mentioned. Can you tell me how many days or weeks worth of supply for the that would provide for the UK at average usage rates?

I've already pointed out the problems with desalination, although that's not to say it shouln't be considered in some places.

As to claiming that water is the one resource on Earth that cannot run out, that is just silly. Yes, water is infinitely recyclable, but that doesn't mean it can't ever run out! To be fair to him, he does at least make people think, but his proposals aren't particularly logical or sensible.


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## samuelsmiles3

Jesthar said:


> Um, because fresh water availability is also around the same level as in the 1800s, but demand keeps going up? People in the 18th century didn't power-shower and wash their hair every day, for example.
> 
> To be honest,* I'm baffled that he can generalise the UK as 'water rich' when significant areas of it are actually water stressed.*
> 
> And that he regards reservoirs as a large scale practical solution when the maths doesn't support that. Take the massive Kielder Water reservoir he mentioned. Can you tell me how many days or weeks worth of supply for the that would provide for the UK at average usage rates?
> 
> I've already pointed out the problems with desalination, although that's not to say it shouln't be considered in some places.
> 
> As to claiming that water is the one resource on Earth that cannot run out, that is just silly. Yes, water is infinitely recyclable, but that doesn't mean it can't ever run out! To be fair to him, he does at least make people think, but his proposals aren't particularly logical or sensible.


It's not a good day to be baffled by his statement that the UK is "water rich", is it?


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## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> It's not a good day to be baffled by his statement that the UK is "water rich", is it?


Actually, flood events are more likely during a drought 

And yes, we have a massive flood event on at the moment - but that's due to a winter of above average rainfall followed by a couple of major storms that, in the space of little over a week, have dumped the better part of two months worth of rain. One months worth of it in around 24 hours in many places. And most of it will drain away into the sea.

This extreme weather is - amazingly - not the norm. So it is erroneous to suggest the UK is not water stressed because of an abnormal weather event.


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## samuelsmiles3

Jesthar said:


> Actually, flood events are more likely during a drought
> 
> And yes, we have a massive flood event on at the moment - but that's due to a winter of above average rainfall followed by a couple of major storms that, in the space of little over a week, have dumped the better part of two months worth of rain. One months worth of it in around 24 hours in many places. And most of it will drain away into the sea.
> 
> This extreme weather is - amazingly - not the norm. So it is erroneous to suggest the UK is not water stressed because of an abnormal weather event.


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## samuelsmiles3

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Yes, it was probably extinction rebellionist Zion Lights, the activist and science "communicator", although she does have some stiff competition.
> 
> She was unable to communicate anything without resorting to the usual platitudes.


After last year's disastrous interview with Andrew Neil, Zion Lights has seen the light and left her position at Extinction Rebellion and joined the pro nuclear energy group Environmental Progress. Quite some turnaround.

A beacon of hope: Why former XR activist Zion Lights is RIGHT to follow science and quit the misguided leftist cult

"_This is a theme seen throughout much of the left's causes these days, as, for all its huffing and puffing, XR has brought little in the way of scientifically sound solutions to the table.

Instead, the left relies on emotional blackmail, groupthink and ritual to pressurize would-be dissenters into kowtowing to its crazy ideas: the washing of one another's feet, mass scenes of hysteria, and public shaming to name but a few". _


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## rona

Have you seen what these people are planning for April?  :Banghead

Mass trespass, just as creatures are having babies both farm and wild. 
How much foodstuffs are they going to trample?


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## Siskin

Selfish bunch of free loaders (I’m being polite)


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## Calvine

rona said:


> Have you seen what these people are planning for April?  :Banghead
> 
> Mass trespass, just as creatures are having babies both farm and wild.
> How much foodstuffs are they going to trample?


Not read anything about that; but nowt would surprise me with that load of loonies. They should have to pay for any damage incurred (as should those boneheads recently in Bristol).
It's the only thing they will understand. Very sad too that at any sign of excitement, Rentamob moves in to make sure there is nothing peaceful about what anyone is doing. Out of interest, have they given a reason why they are planning this?


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## rona

Calvine said:


> Not read anything about that; but nowt would surprise me with that load of loonies. They should have to pay for any damage incurred (as should those boneheads recently in Bristol).
> It's the only thing they will understand. Very sad too that at any sign of excitement, Rentamob moves in to make sure there is nothing peaceful about what anyone is doing. Out of interest, have they given a reason why they are planning this?


Because is the anniversary of Kinder Scout and they think they are entitled to go anywhere they like.

I was chatting to a farmer the other day and he's had" tourists" in his chicken sheds  They are usually out roaming but there's avian flu about, something those idiots wouldn't have a clue about


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## Calvine

rona said:


> Because is the anniversary of Kinder Scout and they think they are entitled to go anywhere they like.
> 
> I was chatting to a farmer the other day and he's had" tourists" in his chicken sheds  They are usually out roaming but there's avian flu about, something those idiots wouldn't have a clue about


My mother used to say with a sneer: ''Look at them; they've never seen a blade of grass before''. It always made me laugh.


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## Calvine

rona said:


> Have you seen what these people are planning for April?  :Banghead
> 
> Mass trespass, just as creatures are having babies both farm and wild.
> How much foodstuffs are they going to trample?


Maybe I'm missing something; maybe I'm being a bit thick, but I thought ER was all about taking care of what is left of the planet?


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## rona

Calvine said:


> Maybe I'm missing something; maybe I'm being a bit thick, but I thought ER was all about taking care of what is left of the planet?


Well it just goes to show doesn't it?


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## Calvine

rona said:


> Well it just goes to show doesn't it?


 It certainly does.


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