# BSH Stud Restrictions



## LEHBSH (Oct 21, 2011)

Ok so I've just had my first litter and thought I was doing the right thing using a quality stud cat over one of those "pet" studs you see advertised on the free ads.....done all the blood grouping, PKD testing, FELV/FIV testing and had a wonderful litter of 5 super kittens............and as some of you may have seen my other post they are ALL BOYS :

So I'm feeling really down about the whole point of breeding when I am not allowed to keep a boy due to stud restrictions...this litter feels like a complete waste of time.

I'm making plans to purchase my own boy but I am sure that will have it's own pitfalls too like how can you improve on breed type by just using your own stud.

I'm just having a moan I guess


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

If you kept a boy, you wouldn't be able to use him with the girl you have? 

It's unfortunate you have five boys (I was waiting for my first girl from my first litter this year & had 4 boys so know how you feel) but good things come to those who wait. Next year you could have five girls!


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## LEHBSH (Oct 21, 2011)

I have other girls I could use him on...but I am only allowed to keep a girl on the active due to stud restrictions


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

Presumably you know about the restrictions before you took your girl to stud - so you knew this could happen? Did the stud owner breed the boy you used or is she just complying with the restrictions she had placed on her by whoever bred the boy (assuming she didn't - if you get my drift!). If the stud owner did breed her boy then could you not have a chat with her about perhaps lifting the restrictions to allow you to keep a boy but obviously you would have to abide by any restrictions she placed on any progeny from him i.e. not selling any boys for stud.


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## LEHBSH (Oct 21, 2011)

Yes I was made fully aware of the restriction, so I was aware this might happen but I guess I didn't think it would actually happen!

I have asked and the answer was no 

I guess it just changes my perception of things going forward, and I'm trying to understand why people put these restrictions on their studs but I'm not sure what good it is doing for the breed?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I was in the same situation last year only i was not aware of the restrictions until the time to register kittens came.Nothing was mentioned to me before hand however it was there in the small print-my fault should have been more careful you learn by your mistakes however it would have been nice for it to have been mentioned.I contacted stud owner and reason being was she was also in contract herself to limit how many kittens were sold on active.I was to keep *no* boys and allowed *1* *girl **only*.To me its fair enough im still good friends with this breeder.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

One girl? That's a naff restriction. 

I have a restriction on my girl (no selling studs which I wouldn't do anyway!) but had none with the stud visit, come to think of it.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I have my own studs now but even 1 of those has a restriction which is to not sell boys active which doesnt affect me really.This boy is making his 3rd litter as we speak. :thumbup1:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

As someone who has bred BSH for almost 30 years I don't particularly like restrictions. I know next to nothing about the situation with other breeds but this does seem to be on the increase within BSH and restrictions seems to become more onerous from year to year.

That said, look at it from the stud owner's point of view. This is the very first litter of BSH kittens you've ever bred and, with the greatest respect to you, it's unlikely you'd be able to discern which, if any, of the kittens have stud potential. I say that with absolutely no disrespect to you but in assessing kittens for show/breed potential there is so much that comes into play - knowing the breed lines and how they develop; what are his attributes going to be as a mature cat?; will those attributes compliment/improve upon the other queens, who you presumably own otherwise why would you even be thinking of keeping your own stud if he has no, or not enough, work? Remember too that a stud, in his lifetime, is going to sire many more kittens than one queen will produce in her breeding lifetime - hence a male has a far greater influence upon the gene pool and the breed as whole; he really does need to be something extra special to warrant being kept for stud use.

That sort of insight is really only gained through experience of working with/seeing (at shows, for example) different breed lines, assessing the 'results' not just in a 12 week old kitten but seeing what you think is/are a promising kitten(s) grow through to adulthood.

If stud owners do not place the restriction of 'no males for stud use' then it's left entirely at the discretion of the queen's owner, many of whom (and I'm not necessarily referring to you, OP!) really haven't the experience in being able to select and often don't have sufficient girls to keep a working boy happy. Similar goes for stud owner's restrictions on female kittens sired by their stud - anyone can breed a litter of kittens and sell kittens on the active register for breeding but just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean you should.

I hope that doesn't sound patronising, it's really not meant to be. Just like to add that with my own studs I have always (except in the case of a few close friends who have a lot of experience with the breed) I always place restrictions with regard to male kittens. However, I have lifted that restriction on a handful of occasions where the queen's owner is willing to take my input on board. And even after 30 years I *still* sometimes don't get it right


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> That said, look at it from the stud owner's point of view. This is the very first litter of BSH kittens you've ever bred and, with the greatest respect to you, it's unlikely you'd be able to discern which, if any, of the kittens have stud potential. I say that with absolutely no disrespect to you but in assessing kittens for show/breed potential there is so much that comes into play - knowing the breed lines and how they develop; what are his attributes going to be as a mature cat?; will those attributes compliment/improve upon the other queens, who you presumably own otherwise why would you even be thinking of keeping your own stud if he has no, or not enough, work? Remember too that a stud, in his lifetime, is going to sire many more kittens than one queen will produce in her breeding lifetime - hence a male has a far greater influence upon the gene pool and the breed as whole; he really does need to be something extra special to warrant being kept for stud use.


This is all true, but I am far from convinced that this is the reason for most restrictions. The odd thing is that the more restrictions there are, the more people seem to want to use the stud. My boy has no restrictions at all but only two people other than me have ever used him.

Liz


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## LEHBSH (Oct 21, 2011)

I take on what you are saying, and as an experienced dog breeder I am trying to see it from the other side. This is not the only stud owner I approached who had the same restriction...Is it not more about reducing competition for stud work, protecting their lines from getting into the wrong hands? I guess it also has an effect on reducing the competition in the show ring...but I just don't see how it can be a good thing for the breed.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

LEHBSH said:


> I take on what you are saying, and as an experienced dog breeder I am trying to see it from the other side. This is not the only stud owner I approached who had the same restriction...Is it not more about reducing competition for stud work, protecting their lines from getting into the wrong hands? I guess it also has an effect on reducing the competition in the show ring...but I just don't see how it can be a good thing for the breed.


Not allowing any sons to be used for breeding surely isn't good. One of the biggest problems in most breeds is a lack of studs. In Sweden I'd say that (generally) 25-30% of the breeding cats are studs and it's the smallest (in number) sex that limits the gene pool. The best case scenario is 50% studs and 50% queens.

Having a few studs sire all offspring is a common problem that cause problems finding unrelated studs for your queens in future generations.

That said, I perfectly understand why restrictions are put on male offspring since a wrongly used stud can cause much more damage to a breed than any queen can (due to the fact that a stud can sire lots of offspring). I don't allow any of my studs to sire more litters than my queens meaning... they're neutered after 3-4 litters. It's getting more and more common in Sweden and we do see more studs in breeding (=larger gene pool) which is great. Here breeding restrictions on studs (max number of litters) increase the number of males used for breeding, that's a good thing. The restrictions put on OPs kittens do the opposite... reduce the number of males that could be used for breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's a vexed question. I'm about to retire an open stud and run on his son. The son will have heavy restrictions for the few other breeders who will get to use him. Why? Because he is carrying a line which comes from a breeder who breeds a lot of litters and sells a lot for breeding. Nothing wrong with that but in a breed with a limited gene pool I want to be sure the line isn't allowed to become too concentrated. It will be fine if someone keeps a girl and mates her to a completely unrelated line. I can't be sure a boy won't end up being mated to a related girl. I may eventually allow a boy to be kept by an experienced stud owner who knows how to read a pedigree and has some knowledge of the breed and its lines. I'm not being awkward, I'm being careful.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

LEHBSH said:


> I take on what you are saying, and as an experienced dog breeder I am trying to see it from the other side. This is not the only stud owner I approached who had the same restriction...Is it not more about reducing competition for stud work, protecting their lines from getting into the wrong hands? I guess it also has an effect on reducing the competition in the show ring...but I just don't see how it can be a good thing for the breed.


As Lizz has already pointed out, I'm sure (well, I know) that some stud owners place restrictions for reasons other than having the best interest of the breed at heart. Protecting their lines from getting into the wrong hands? Maybe... sometimes more like preventing their lines from getting in to the hands of breeders they don't like or have some sort of (competitive?) grudge against.

I could speculate on all sorts of reasons, many of which I find difficult to get my head around because, to *some* extent, I don't believe excessive restrictions do the breed any favours. The flip side is, I think, that not placing restrictions on male kittens at all also may not be good the breed. However fantastic a stud may be, there are precious few (if any) who will consistently sire offspring as good as themselves and a lot will also depend upon the queen's qualities.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Some very valid points being raised tonight...:thumbup1:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> Not allowing any sons to be used for breeding surely isn't good. One of the biggest problems in most breeds is a lack of studs. In Sweden I'd say that (generally) 25-30% of the breeding cats are studs and it's the smallest (in number) sex that limits the gene pool. The best case scenario is 50% studs and 50% queens.


Cerridwen, with BSH, the breed being discussed here, we don't have that problem in the UK. They are an extremely popular breed (more BSH's registered with GCCF than any other breed by quite a long way) so we see a lot of studs available for use. Many, in my opinion, aren't of the quality they should be and I believe often have little to offer the breed. In BSH's, due to their popularity here, we also see quite a big element of unethical, indiscriminate breeding as a result of people jumping on what they think is the money bandwagon - it's a bit of a double edged sword and tends to make good breeders, with good quality studs, shut up shop or place quite 'heavy' restrictions which often sees the newer breeders have no option but to gravitate towards the "anything goes" type breeder with no restrictions where their only interest is a stud fee. And so it perpetuates itself.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Cerridwen, with BSH, the breed being discussed here, we don't have that problem in the UK. They are an extremely popular breed (more BSH's registered with GCCF than any other breed by quite a long way) so we see a lot of studs available for use. Many, in my opinion, aren't of the quality they should be and I believe often have little to offer the breed. In BSH's, due to their popularity here, we also see quite a big element of unethical, indiscriminate breeding as a result of people jumping on what they think is the money bandwagon - it's a bit of a double edged sword and tends to make good breeders, with good quality studs, shut up shop or place quite 'heavy' restrictions which often sees the newer breeders have no option but to gravitate towards the "anything goes" type breeder with no restrictions where their only interest is a stud fee. And so it perpetuates itself.


"Many" studs really doesn't say anything. Are we talking about 50% of the breeding population being studs? 20%, 25%, 30%, 40%? It's the percentage that says anything about the long term genetic influence. The optimum number for genetic diversity and good health is 50-50. Maybe you have enough studs but to many queens? A breed can't grow for all eternity, there's an upper limit for the demand of cats of any breed.

To me, it's not a huge problem if ugly studs are used as long as they are healthy. I've seen ugly cats producing BIS offspring, not something I'd recommend but cats can have more qualities than looks only. Of course the quality of type should be enhanced but we have to consider other qualities as well (genetic heritage and temperament to mention some).

I see no point in letting one stud sire 100 offspring and only letting a few of them be used for further breeding. I'd rather see that he sire 50 offspring and have 4 instead of 2 sons passing on his genes to future generations. Letting a few studs dominating (fathering almost all kittens) is risky business. Not only due to possible future inbreeding problems but also because a seemingly healthy stud can drop dead due to a heritable disease (such as HCM) at the age of 8 years.

I'm not promoting limitless breeding on any stud. I'm promoting moderate breeding on studs (and queens) in order to try to keep the genetic variation needed for a robust and healthy breed. Like I said, I don't let my studs sire more litters than my queens and I do not sell breeding cats like candy. The last few years I haven't sold any for breeding and I do put restrictions on offspring when I let other breeders use my studs. It's a fine line to dance on...

I would however, not even consider to forbid a breeder to at least keep a son for her/his own breeding program if I decide to let her/him use my stud. If I don't trust her/him with keeping a queen or stud I won't let her/him use my stud.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

That would be impossible to define for various reasons but I can confidently say it is nowhere near 50/50. That, however, is looking at the breed as whole. Those who, for example, are working with selfs (solids) and bi-colours would not choose to introduce a silver or colourpointed cat into their breeding programme those focusing on, say, golden tipped would not seek to use a bi-colour and so on. In effect we have many sub-divisions, colour wise, whereby breeders would not seek out cats of certain colours and usually for good reason. In addition to that, GCCF, by far our largest governing body in the UK, have a breed/registration policy which is (currently, though this may change to some extent in the not too distant future) considered by many to be too restrictive when it comes to certain colour x colour matings. Hence it is not just the breeders choice to exclude a large proportion of the gene pool (as a whole) but also that they are prevented from doing so by the breed/registration policy. So in many cases, within the sub-division of certain colours that are compatible for mating (or allowable under GCCF) this would change the ratios quite drastically.

I would need to have very good reason in choosing to use an ugly stud. I have, on occasion, used studs that are far from my ideal at times when there is a specific trait that I am attempting to improve upon or on an occasion where Ive felt that some genetic diversity (using the term loosely) was needed. Of course it takes two to tango; we also see many, many poorly typed, poorly bred, fine boned, etc, etc, females who are offered for sale/used for breeding. The problem in the UK with BSHs, I think, lies more with the breeders (to again use a term loosely) than it does the cats. Sadly, few will apply your logic, thought and understanding of their breed; add in the high popularity factor and demand for kittens and that all adds up to a pretty large number of poor quality, poorly bred cats - not only in looks but, more importantly, in health and too many of them find their way into often ill-thought out (if they are thought out at all, past who will sell me a kitten for breeding?) plans. Of course, Im not advocating being so idealistic as to breed only from the near perfect cat; thats clearly ridiculous and dangerous. I know I sound cynical and damning but ts a breed I have loved for three decades and have seen with my own eyes the breed as a whole deteriorate which has gone hand in hand with its rise in popularity. Show entries in the UK have fallen drastically over the last ten years across all (or most) breeds but the BSH, in direct relation to their sheer numbers and popularity, are particularly poorly represented. I fear they are fast becoming a victim of their popularity as with the Bengal in the UK.. you have a core of breeders, producing some magnificent looking, healthy animals but for every one of this type of breeder you have ten who are churning out kittens for the pet market and, for an extra couple of hundred quid on top, are more than happy to sell anyone a kitten for breeding.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

The owner of the stud restricted us from breeding male offspring because keeping a stud is not as easy as most people would think. After having visited her studs though, I totally agree. A separate area is required (although it is also possible to live with the females if they wear underpants...) and frankly, it's bl**dy smelly! I have absolutely no desire to keep a stud at this point.

My breeder did say though that if a good cattery which has proper stud quarters wants a male kitten, it MIGHT be possible to breed him (with her permission obviously).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The owner of the stud restricted us from breeding male offspring because keeping a stud is not as easy as most people would think


Keeping a stud properly isn't easy and isn't cheap. I'm going to hark on about the old days so those who don't want to know the result look away now 

Back in the day, it was unheard of that an inexperienced breeder ever kept a stud. It was almost self-regulated by cost in that there wasn't the disposable income around for most people until they reached the age where financial security was established. There was a natural progression which meant breeders first learned about their breed, the lines, what worked and what didn't. There is still an assumption that stud owners have this knowledge and I still believe they should. Sadly many don't and will accept any queen into stud because they don't know not to. It isn't as simple as checking an inbreeding coefficient.

If someone asks to use my boy (especially a novice breeder) I'll either say 'yes' or maybe question them a bit further on their plans. If they're intending to keep a girl I may suggest other options if using my boy narrows rather than widens their choices for subsequent generations. I can do this because I can look at a four generation pedigree and 'see' another four generations back. I know what else is around and more importantly I know other breeders' plans so what will be around in the future. Show me you've taken the time to learn, have bothered to to be as interested and passionate about this breed as I am and restrictions will probably melt away.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Coda's stud has loads of restrictions on him (and therefore Coda's kittens) - no boys to be kept for stud, only one girl if of good enough quality, NO kittens at all to be sold on as on the active. I'm really happy about that - I don't have the knowledge to judge what is good and what isn't - I knew that was what was in the contract - I still have lots to learn and am more than happy to take things slowly. I will not keep a girl if there isn't one of good enough type and will try again in the next litter. It's a slow process this building your own line etc - can't be rushed - even if the OP had had a girl she might not have been good enough for breed stock. I think it is tempting to always keep one but you don't have to - you have to get it right. Have a plan - know where you are going colours wise - silver/ golden/ none of those etc and then research, research, research. 

I'm after a brown tortie silver tabby (which with Coda would be a black tortie mink/ sepia) with white, with fantastic type. (no choc in the muffin world unfortunately), I know which stud I would use next with her as he has no relation to her at all, is great type, soft as they come, is silver too (wanting to keep to silver lines) etc. In fact I have a choice of two IF I can get the owners to let me use them BUT I need that perfect girl kitten first. 

It's a slow process and rightly so.


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## LEHBSH (Oct 21, 2011)

spid said:


> Coda's stud has loads of restrictions on him (and therefore Coda's kittens) - no boys to be kept for stud, only one girl if of good enough quality, NO kittens at all to be sold on as on the active. I'm really happy about that - I don't have the knowledge to judge what is good and what isn't - I knew that was what was in the contract - I still have lots to learn and am more than happy to take things slowly. I will not keep a girl if there isn't one of good enough type and will try again in the next litter. It's a slow process this building your own line etc - can't be rushed - even if the OP had had a girl she might not have been good enough for breed stock. I think it is tempting to always keep one but you don't have to - you have to get it right. Have a plan - know where you are going colours wise - silver/ golden/ none of those etc and then research, research, research.
> 
> I'm after a brown tortie silver tabby (which with Coda would be a black tortie mink/ sepia) with white, with fantastic type. (no choc in the muffin world unfortunately), I know which stud I would use next with her as he has no relation to her at all, is great type, soft as they come, is silver too (wanting to keep to silver lines) etc. In fact I have a choice of two IF I can get the owners to let me use them BUT I need that perfect girl kitten first.
> 
> It's a slow process and rightly so.


I understand what you are saying but in my opinion as a reputable breeder I would not accept a girl to stud if I thought she wasn't good enough to produce 'breed stock'.

I don't see the point in using an 'ugly' stud either just to get my own breeding stock...many of which are overused studs that have mated far too many untested queens - why would I want to do that?

I want to do it right, and yes it takes time....but mating the same queen to the same stud for 2 or 3 consecutive litters to try and get a female isn't going to give me anything amazing, especially if I am choosing kittens just because of colour and gender - to improve on type you have to keep the best of each litter and move on using them for breeding and so on.

These restrictions are forcing people into a corner of buying their own stud which I wouldn't even consider if there were dozens of suitable studs out there without restrictions.

I'm not even allowed to keep a male for my own use which would cover all the issues people have raised here.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

*YOU *may not accept a girl to stud if she wasn't good enough - but plenty will and I suppose that's why a lot of people impose restrictions. I can't keep a boy either - not that I want one - and obviously if a girl was born that was perfect I would have to seriously consider keeping her no matter what the colour - however, I need a goal to aim for and I want to reproduce torties and red in sliver - so some colours would set me back.

I suppose you are just going to have to accept that you were unlucky this time and try again for a girl - another 4-6 months and you could be sending her off to stud again. It's not too long - if a mite annoying.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

LEHBSH said:


> I understand what you are saying but in my opinion as a reputable breeder I would not accept a girl to stud if I thought she wasn't good enough to produce 'breed stock'.


I agree with you on that. I breed in order to conserve and improve the health and look of the breed. I will not take any part in breeding that only will produce kittens. Every mating I take part in (either by mating my own queens or letting someone else use my stud) is supposed to be a step forward in the development. I want one or two offspring from every litter to be good enough for breeding. That's my goal.



> I don't see the point in using an 'ugly' stud either just to get my own breeding stock...many of which are overused studs that have mated far too many untested queens - why would I want to do that?


I'm not particularly interested in that either, but I have seen experienced breeders (that have bred 100 kittens or so) do very well when using studs I never would have used. They obviously have developed an eye for details that I haven't (or maybe it's pure luck but I prefer to believe in the first).



> I want to do it right, and yes it takes time....but mating the same queen to the same stud for 2 or 3 consecutive litters to try and get a female isn't going to give me anything amazing, especially if I am choosing kittens just because of colour and gender - to improve on type you have to keep the best of each litter and move on using them for breeding and so on.


Again, I agree.



> These restrictions are forcing people into a corner of buying their own stud which I wouldn't even consider if there were dozens of suitable studs out there without restrictions.


This is both good and bad. I have seen examples when breeders have been rejected a stud and they've gone and imported a good looking stud. I that case the restrictions used by the first stud owner has been good for the breed as a whole since it generated a good looking stud with new blood lines. On the other hand the rejected breeder could use a low quality stud because that's what's available but in that case it's rather a lack of restrictions on the low quality stud that is the problem.



LEHBSH said:


> I'm not even allowed to keep a male for my own use which would cover all the issues people have raised here.


And this is of course one of the ways restrictions can go wrong. Why take part in such breeding? Of course practical experience is important for any breeder but one of the main goals with breeding is to bring the breed forward and you do that by creating new and better generations (or at least as good as the previous) that can pass the genes on forward.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I understand what you are saying but in my opinion as a reputable breeder I would not accept a girl to stud if I thought she wasn't good enough to produce 'breed stock'.


OK, I've been doing this for 40 years and I still don't know the secret. Please will somebody tell me how you guarantee 100% breed/show quality kittens and how you can be so sure you can keep any one of them and she's guaranteed to turn out a 'good breeder'. I've known some pretty mediocre cats produce multiple champions and highly titled cats turn out to be infertile.

I have, and continue to produce kittens I wouldn't choose for the show bench. It's sod's law that I'll go many litters without perfection and then three stunners turn up at once - kittens are like buses in that respect 

What am I doing wrong?!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

LEHBSH said:


> I understand what you are saying but in my opinion as a reputable breeder I would not accept a girl to stud if I thought she wasn't good enough to produce 'breed stock'.
> 
> I don't see the point in using an 'ugly' stud either just to get my own breeding stock...many of which are overused studs that have mated far too many untested queens - why would I want to do that?
> 
> ...


There are so many issues and complexities here that it's hard to know where to start without launching into an epic that will sound patronising and obstructive to the new breeder. I breed cats and raise kittens for the love of it and to try and improve upon the breed I chose which sounds pretty simplistic. But there is no getting away from the fact that breeding is a mixture of art, science and a long road on which you never stop learning.

So I am not patronising you by saying that you sound as though you are on your way to becoming a reputable breeder but, with one litter of kittens under your belt, why should a stud owner hand you the choice and responsbility in the absence of any previous experience whatsoever? Reputation, good or bad, is something that is only gained over time and it is what most good, experienced stud owners will be using in assessing whether to impose restrictions, what restrictions to impose and whether they might be prepared to remove them.

Going back to your initial point about "not accepting into stud a girl if you thought she wasn't good enough" I believe, with the greatest respect, illustrates that your thinking is currently a bit 'skewed'. My (now late, as of last year) previous BSH blue stud was just about the most successful sire, over the last ten years, in terms of show winning progeny and progeny carefully bred on from successive generations. He was never over used and in 11 years just five males sired by him went onto become studs. Two of these were bred/continued to be owned by novice breeders. I have never been obstructive (quite the opposite) with new'ish breeders who clearly understood the difficulties and sheer amount of time involved in keeping a stud - and they understood because they'd quickly taken on board, at the outset, the many aspects of keeping a stud.. forward thinking, if you like. They were also prepared to accept my help when they needed it and my input even when they thought they didn't need it. But I'm going off the point somewhat. Both mothers (owned by these new'ish breeders) were fairly mediocre girls; far from show quality, put it that way. I could have turned them away because their girls "weren't good enough". The difference, despite their mediocre type, is that I knew from experience that the qualitities they did have and taking into account their pedigrees, meant I knew they would likely produce some nice kittens to my stud and would also likely be of much better quality than their mother. All five studs I mentioned achieved at least Gr Ch status, two are Imperial Gr CH's and are/have been highly successful sires in their own right. I'm very proud of them and delighted for their doting owners but this isn't about me bathing in their reflected glory - I'm just trying to illustrate that stud owners are not always restrictive just for the sake of it and that it's all about knowledge and experience gained over time... and not about having a slight hissy fit because, unfortunately, you had no girls in a litter where you knew, from the outset, that you had restrictions on males. Look at the positive; it'll give you an opportunity of seeing how the kittens develop over time (hopefully through those lovely photos that new owners continue to send you) and whether it's a mating you might want to do again in the hope of getting your female. I've had to go back to drawing board more times than I care to remember.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm not even allowed to keep a male for my own use which would cover all the issues people have raised here.


But you weren't planning to keep a boy were you? 


> to improve on type you have to keep the best of *each litter* and move on using them for breeding and so on.


I disagree with this. What's the point of keeping the 'best' of a litter if it's only mediocre? How does that improve anything? To improve on type the kitten you keep for breeding has to be better than the parent or you're going backwards.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The most satisfying thing, to me, is producing a kitten that is better than _either_ parent.

However in my breed at the moment the inbreeding is quite simply a very serious issue and if we have to go backwards on type in order to widen the gene pool, well, we have to do it.

Liz


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> OK, I've been doing this for 40 years and I still don't know the secret. Please will somebody tell me how you guarantee 100% breed/show quality kittens and how you can be so sure you can keep any one of them and she's guaranteed to turn out a 'good breeder'. I've known some pretty mediocre cats produce multiple champions and highly titled cats turn out to be infertile.
> 
> I have, and continue to produce kittens I wouldn't choose for the show bench. It's sod's law that I'll go many litters without perfection and then three stunners turn up at once - kittens are like buses in that respect
> 
> What am I doing wrong?!


I can't see anyone talking about guarantees. Planning for combinations you think will produce good offspring is one thing (self-evident for me), but you can't know. You do your best and you get what what you get. But I hope all breeders have the goal to produce good offspring in every generation. If not we might as well just go by chance every time. Have a computer choosing random available male each time.

A good breeding cat may also be something else than a good show cat. I know several showstoppers that a poor breeding cats. Low fertility, poor mothers or they just don't produce that great offspring you might expect.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> or they just don't produce that great offspring you might expect.


And yet a few posts back you were endorsing keeping the 'best' kitten from *each* litter.



> Quote:
> I want to do it right, and yes it takes time....but mating the same queen to the same stud for 2 or 3 consecutive litters to try and get a female isn't going to give me anything amazing, especially if I am choosing kittens just because of colour and gender - to improve on type you have to keep the best of each litter and move on using them for breeding and so on.
> Again, I agree.


We have here someone who doesn't believe it's worthwhile going back to the same stud for a repeat mating in the hope of getting a girl whilst convinced she has at least one boy in this litter worthy of running on as a stud. This is contradictory. Either that mating does produce at least the odd stunner in which case you go back - or it doesn't and this whole thread is simply a sad confirmation of the need for stud owners to place restrictions on the inexperienced.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> And yet a few posts back you were endorsing keeping the 'best' kitten from *each* litter.


No I didn't. LEHBSH did. I believe in keeping what you believe is what you want in your breeding program. Hoping for the best and be ready to change your plans if things don't work out as planned.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Apololgies. I took your response


> Again, I agree.


to mean you agreed with her.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This is actually a very interesting discussion - and is helping me to crystalise ideas and plans in my head - I do want a stud eventually - but eventually - until then I need to keep lines, colours etc in my plans and alter them as the need arises etc. Talking it out certainly helps loads.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> Apololgies. I took your response
> 
> to mean you agreed with her.


Since I took it for granted that what was meant is that you plan for good offspring to keep for further breeding. That things doesn't always work out as we thought is a bit of... crystal clear? No one can possibly think that everything always works out as we planned for. But not planning for further breeding in order to better the breed is just kitten production.

Whenever I plan a breeding I plan for keeping something for further breeding. That does not mean that I have to. If I get kittens that doesn't hold my standards there's no further breeding and I have neutered complete litters.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I do want a stud eventually


For me running studs is the icing on the cake Spid. I adore stud work - it's said you either love it or hate it. There is good reason to wait until you have a good working knowledge of your breed, or with a breed as big in numbers as BSH maybe a specialist area


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm unsure if I ever want a stud. It looks like a lot of hard work & heartache. I can see the benefits of having a stud, for sure. Maybe if I didn't work full time? It's always an opportunity to open up the gene pool a bit more by bringing in a boy from further than you would venture to stud (say, abroad for example!) but then you spend hours looking at pedigrees & type & so on & not find anything you like...

I think if I did, it would not be a public stud. Even though as a new breeder that annoys me as it restricts the gene pool but I also think about all the possible diseases that could be spread - it's a risk of short term or long term health issues for the breed/cat.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I met some people at a show with a stud they had brought from the other end of the country. The reason was that as well as being a lovely well-bred cat, he was an out-cross to most of the queens in the area. He is/was at public stud.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> For me running studs is the icing on the cake Spid. I adore stud work - it's said you either love it or hate it. There is good reason to wait until you have a good working knowledge of your breed, or with a breed as big in numbers as BSH maybe a specialist area


Yep - I have to wait as where we live now I can't keep a stud - once we are settled and have the space I will be getting stud quarters etc - maybe import new lines etc. It's a plan and I like planing; I also like researching even if it comes to nothing.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I have to say that I think the work with having a stud is overrated. Of course it's a pain to have spraying stud, but as I think I've told many times before there are ways. Here in Sweden breeding cats are kept as pets, studs as well. Some breeders have stud pens but most of us keep them indoors with the other cats (separating them from females they aren't supposed to breed of course). No, we don't keep them fertile for several years but on the other hand having them fertile for only a year or two limits the amount of litters they'll sire. I've had two studs at home (I rent an apartment) with no problems (and no, my home doesn't stink of stud pee). I've brought other breeders studs to my home, no probs. My last stud was put in a foster home meaning he lived as any pet but I had two litters from him. It was a great solution (and a common one here).

There are many different ways to keep a stud, it's almost always tougher than having females or neuters only but it doesn't have to me that hard and you don't necessarily have to build special quarters for them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I've had two studs at home (I rent an apartment) with no problems


I can't see a problem with that way of doing things if you are letting a boy sire one or two litters as is the case with your system. If overall numbers of breeders are small and you know each other well it's fine and something I'd consider alongside my current system. Where it would fall down for me is if I didn't know the other breeder well, or maybe did in some cases  I wouldn't be happy leaving a girl with a stranger unless it was in specialist accommodation.

I also wouldn't be happy bringing a girl from another household into my house. I want more separation from my own cats. I have stringent infection control measures in place between my stud house and my living accommodation which I couldn't maintain if it were just a case of a closed door. I'm also pretty stringent on maintaining an incubation period between visiting queens and I'd want the same between a stud boy who has just had a girl in and my own cats. Between this and my own cats being in call he'd have to stay in one room behind a closed door for the majority of the time anyway. This means he'd actually spend a lot of time shut away in inferior accommodation to that which he has currently.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I do understand that this is possible Cerridwen - but I can't take the risk (living in MOD quarters) IF the stud sprayed they would rightly say I couldn't keep him and/or boot me out of my accommodation. SO I have to go carefully. I like planning anyway - and here I still can't have enough girls to keep a stud happy.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have to say that I think the work with having a stud is overrated


I have to say I think you're right for many cases. I'd say it depends on how much effort the stud owner puts in. One of the reasons people come to me is because they know I spend a lot of time and money making sure their girls are looked after. A girl who comes here will be fed whatever she's fed at home, have the same litter in her tray, have hours of human company etc. etc. etc. There are those who think it's just a case of throwing a girl in with a stud and hoping for the best but it isn't how I work.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> I have to say I think you're right for many cases. I'd say it depends on how much effort the stud owner puts in. One of the reasons people come to me is because they know I spend a lot of time and money making sure their girls are looked after. A girl who comes here will be fed whatever she's fed at home, have the same litter in her tray, have hours of human company etc. etc. etc. There are those who think it's just a case of throwing a girl in with a stud and hoping for the best but it isn't how I work.


I do the same, but since I only allow my studs to have a very limited amount of offspring and I mainly keep studs for my own queens I don't bring many females home for breeding, but when I do they have full service. Of course. I don't consider that much work though, it's pure pleasure.


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