# Do you think its right or fair to breed a dog while your on benefits?



## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

After the much debated thread about are all breeders out to make money. 

A further thought I have and would love to hear peoples views. 

Do you think it right that someone become a breeder while on benfits? Dole job seekers etc? As with the breeding thread alot of people said that no breeders were not making money. That to fund the breeding they have to work very hard in their job to pay for it. which was nice to hear.

So this got me thinking. (having a pet shop I see and hear about all sorts!)

How could someone call themselves a good breeder, not be doing it to make money but be on benefits? Which would mean that they wouldn't have the cash to fund it in the first instance? 

I thought I'd start a new thread rather the diluting the other one. With what really is a seperate question. I know that Show prices are deemed a good example of why puppy prices are higher. But then how could somebody on benefits afford to campaign a bitch? So then how could they breed and want show puppies? 

Just a thought.. any thoughts anyone?


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> After the much debated thread about are all breeders out to make money.
> 
> A further thought I have and would love to hear peoples views.
> 
> ...


I would have thought people living solely on benefits couldn't afford it. not to doing it correctly anyway.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Don't know anything about breeding, really, but I imagine that to do it right would be very expensive. People who breed and don't have the money usually think that is how they are going to make money. They see how much pups go for and think that it is easy money, don't consider health tests and such or vets bills if things go wrong.

I have had people telling me I was mad to pay all that money for mine, because they've got some in the paper for half that price. They don't know anything about health tests and things like that. People have also told me about a litter of newfies that are going cheap, just because they are not registered. They get fooled by this, think they are getting a bargain, and support puppy farmers and byb and don't even know it.

I wouldn't want the responsibility myself.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

we had this question not long ago it got shut down as some people found it offensive.
(not me)


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

If the person was solely living on benefits (so had no savings), I think they would find it really hard to afford to do it properly.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

We had this a month ago. Well, it started as just getting a dog on benefits, but then the idea of breeding on benefits got in there:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/149126-benefits-dont-get-dog.html

Personally, I do not feel that the government should be funding people's "hobbies". The money is meant to support you and your family, not for you to support your breeding endeavours. There are some circumstances where exceptions could be made, ie if you are well off within the breed and you are often entrusted with new stock and have other income etc, but for someone to spend their benefits on buying in puppies, borrowing money to pay for stud fees, etc, its just not on.

My biggest point was what happens in the future if you are asked to take a dog that you sold back on and this particular pup has an illness or disease that is very expensive to treat? How will you, on benefits, be able to afford that?


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Just to add their are good breeders who do get some form of benefit (especially for disabilities) that do a really good job and do it the proper way. So it would be unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

jamie1977 said:


> If the person was solely living on benefits (so had no savings), I think they would find it really hard to afford to do it properly.


very hard i'd imagine, only have to read some of the other breeding threads and see how much a litter would cost to be raised.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Well, in my instance, I am the breadwinner and my OH is on disability benefits. We do show our dogs and are picky and choosy as to what shows we spend our money on. Money is tight, more than tight at times, but we survive and manage to fund our hobby, including breeding.

Some of our show friends are highearners and some are living purely on benefits - what difference does it make in reality if the dogs are well-cared for?????


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Well, in my instance, I am the breadwinner and my OH is on disability benefits. We do show our dogs and are picky and choosy as to what shows we spend our money on. Money is tight, more than tight at times, but we survive and manage to fund our hobby, including breeding.
> 
> Some of our show friends are highearners and some are living purely on benefits - what difference does it make in reality if the dogs are well-cared for?????


An example of my 2 posts (the 2nd one more so)


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Some of our show friends are highearners and some are living purely on benefits - what difference does it make in reality if the dogs are well-cared for?????


Exactly.

As long as they are careful with their money, have insurance and back up money and are willing to risk a loss of money then there is no problem.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

candysmum said:


> I would have thought people living solely on benefits couldn't afford it. not to doing it correctly anyway.


Why not??

Some breeds dont have as many health tests recommended as others, some breeds whelp better than others, therefore less vet intervention.

First litter we bred OH was on benefits (still is) and I only worked part time on minimum wage and we managed just fine!!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly.
> 
> As long as they are careful with their money, have insurance and back up money and are willing to risk a loss of money then there is no problem.


Isn't there the problem of declaring the income when the pups are sold, and possibly losing benefit? How many people who breed whilst on benefits are doing it as part of the black economy? Should us taxpayers be paying them benefits when they have this source of income?


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Why not??
> 
> Some breeds dont have as many health tests recommended as others, some breeds whelp better than others, therefore less vet intervention.
> 
> First litter we bred OH was on benefits (still is) and I only worked part time on minimum wage and we managed just fine!!


Exactly.

We have started up a "account" with our vet were we pay so much a month right up until the pregnancy that way we have money aside if it comes to more than the insurance will cover.

We have started stocking up on food and whelping supplies already.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Isn't there the problem of declaring the income when the pups are sold, and possibly losing benefit? How many people who breed whilst on benefits are doing it as part of the black economy? Should us taxpayers be paying them benefits when they have this source of income?


I already have declared my potential litter to benefits and my local office wants me to keep them updated and keep receipts of everything. I have no issue with this because I am not in it for the money at all.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Its not seen as a source of income from 'proper' breeders though, thats the thing! What about the breeds that may only have 2-3 pups, by the time you've paid the stud fee and reared the litter - what profit??

Those that have litter after litter arent the caring breeders and should be reported, but then, its proving the actual income. People deal in hard cash, taxman would have a hard time proving money changed hands, lol!!


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Isn't there the problem of declaring the income when the pups are sold, and possibly losing benefit? How many people who breed whilst on benefits are doing it as part of the black economy? Should us taxpayers be paying them benefits when they have this source of income?


That is a good question, but I am sure if done legally (and not committing fraud) then this is not something to be worried about. You get people in well paid jobs who do not inform the tax man of their income from breeding.

Maybe some with experience from breeding while claiming benefits can explain what procedures they have to do to make sure they are not committing fraud.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Its not seen as a source of income from 'proper' breeders though, thats the thing! What about the breeds that may only have 2-3 pups, by the time you've paid the stud fee and reared the litter - what profit??
> 
> Those that have litter after litter arent the caring breeders and should be reported, but then, its proving the actual income. People deal in hard cash, taxman would have a hard time proving money changed hands, lol!!


Yup.

Our average is 4 pups however Alaska's family have been known to produce 3 rather than 4 pups but I always say "4 pups". I plan to keep 1 or 2 back. I have to pay a £250 stud fee. £300 insurance. £100 on food for the pups and mum while pregnant. £140 on whelping box. £200+ on health tests for my girl. £50 for check ups on the pups. £168 for eye tests for the pups before they leave. £50 on KC registration and thats not including other whelping supplies. :blink:

If there are only 1-2 pups the chances are both are staying with me.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Depends what benefits person is on, some are income-related and some arent, as to whether taxman/W & P would need to know about any further source of income to household.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I don't really know that much about the benefits system or how much you get on what etc... but to me I have always felt that our welfare system should be focused on basic sustenance for those who have fallen on hard times (have been made redundant etc..) or fair support for those who literally have no other possible means in life. Should subsidised animal breeding fall into either of those? 
I'm uncertain.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

To be honest if some one bred a litter and got a couple hundred dollars profit, i wouldn't hold it against them. It's hard on any kind of benefits animals or no animals in the family...I know cause when I left my first husband I needed help to get back on my feet ( I would never have left if I was going to lose my dog)....If they can do something nice for themselves once a year thats okay with me...If they are breeding on a big scale that is different...Just my opinion


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Its not something I would do myself if I was in that position.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> I don't really know that much about the benefits system or how much you get on what etc... but to me I have always felt that our welfare system should be focused on basic sustenance for those who have fallen on hard times (have been made redundant etc..) or fair support for those who literally have no other possible means in life. Should subsidised animal breeding fall into either of those?
> I'm uncertain.


Depends how you look at it.

Many people on benefits smoke (excessively), drink, go out every weekend, go on holidays, have 100000's of children.

I do none of those things except I have my dogs. My dogs are first and foremost pets. Yes I want a litter from Alaska, but only to keep 1 or 2 pups back and only will ever breed in order to keep a pup to hopefully show/agility.

Not for money.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> I don't really know that much about the benefits system or how much you get on what etc... but to me I have always felt that our welfare system should be focused on basic sustenance for those who have fallen on hard times (have been made redundant etc..) or fair support for those who literally have no other possible means in life. Should subsidised animal breeding fall into either of those?
> I'm uncertain.


Well, thinking about it, if someone is breeding purely as a hobby, and most responsible breeders are because they certainly don't make much money, why should that be different to any other hobby? If someone is on benefits, nobody tells them they shouldn't be going to the cinema, or playing tennis, or even going down the pub once in a while, so why should this be any different? If the question is about back yard breeders who do no health tests and don't really care about anything but the money, then that is a different story.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

I think it's wrong to use your benefits to enhance your income, as in just breeding for the money. But if you use your benefits to breed say once a year instead of holidays, smoking, drinking, etc then it can be justifed (if not cutting corners to enhance profit). Because if doing things properly the profit will be fairly small, which makes it pointless to do it for the money.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

For me as a tax payer. No I don't think that people on certain benefits should be able to breed dogs. 

I've been watching working girls on BBC i player recently and some of the comments about Job seekers £130 for half an hours work blinding! 

Then you get people like my Auntie who has always worked and has to wait for an op? Or school, NHS cuts etc... 


I know that slighlty comes off point. But the point of job seekers is to help keep you while you seek a job.. So for me breeding isn't really on. 

I do know of one person who is on disability benefit and breeds to supplement their income.... as this individual couldn't think of anything they could do to get the money. N that becasue there other half worked they couldn't claim loads of benfits. 

N to me this has always felt a little wrong..... the dogs seem to being used. But their dogs are in good condition not locked in cages etc.... so there really isn't any way to stop them or anyone to report them to...... 

But it still feels a lil wrong!


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## [email protected] (Nov 22, 2010)

On the one hand you will have people on benefits who are wonderful breeders, who look after and care far better for their pets than themselves a lot of the time but on the other hand you have a lot of people on benefits who drag dogs around, breed from them, kick them when out in public and use them as a status symbol. You actually dont have to be on benefits to see exactly the same things going on elsewhere. Being on benefits doesnt make an ounce of difference in my mind.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Living on minimum wage and benefit top-ups is chuffing hard!! Dont knock it till you've tried it!!

Me and my OH dont go out for meals, to pubs, cinema etc. We choose to spend our money on our dogs, including showing them and breeding them, we do it for love of the dogs and our chosen breed. I work chuffing hard to make ends meet and keep our own roof over our heads and what I choose to do as a hobby as chuff all to do with anyone else!!

Sorry, but a couple of ill-thought comments have raised my hackles slightly, lol! All people on benefits are not scammers who spend all their time on the pub and have loads of children, so please dont generalise is all I ask.

I forsee this thread descending into chaos and argument.............................


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Well, thinking about it, if someone is breeding purely as a hobby, and most responsible breeders are because they certainly don't make much money, why should that be different to any other hobby? If someone is on benefits, nobody tells them they shouldn't be going to the cinema, or playing tennis, or even going down the pub once in a while, so why should this be any different? If the question is about back yard breeders who do no health tests and don't really care about anything but the money, then that is a different story.


Yes.. if the state is happy to support people who are incapacitated then they can't really dictate what it is that people will spend the money on. I suppose the real issue always comes back to the original question as to who is deserving of benefits in the first instance.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't breed.. 

But if I was on full benefits say not working with two children.. Would there be money for extra's.. I dont know what they get?
But see plenty of people moaning they can't afford to live..


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

considering how costly a litter cost to produce with no profit as detailed on other thread i'm surprised any one on benefits could even contemplate breeding. i wouldn't be able to. jmo.


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

jamie1977 said:


> Just to add their are good breeders who do get some form of benefit (especially for disabilities) that do a really good job and do it the proper way. So it would be unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.


Yeah, who on here has the right to make a judgement about someone, solely based on the fact that they are on benefits.

This whole thread is a can of overflowing worms made worse by the ignorant opinions of people on here who seem to think that unless you were born in a mansion with a flying pony & a silver spoon up your bottom that you have absolutely no right to own a dog.

Absolute Tosh!!!!!! I am currently full time carer for my mother (35+hrs/per week) I recieve £55-55 + £28-70 per week in benefits for this. I have owned many dogs throughout my life & currently have one who is very much loved & well looked after. I doubt very much I will breed her when she is older. If I don't, it will be nothing to do with cost or what benefit I may or may not be on, just that there are so many unwanted dogs/puppies in this country that I wouldn't want to possibly add to their number.

People who breed dogs, in a so called 'proper' way are still adding to the number of dogs in this country. They cant possibly keep track of all puppies which have passed through their hands. Car salesmen may sell cars but they are in the business of making money as are estate agents & oooohhhh shock horror as are all dog breeders.

I abhor cruelty/neglect of animals. Backyard breeders make me very very sad & angry.

However so do the outdated snobbish attitudes of some people who post on this site.

Rant over...Bring forth the criticism.......Peace out :001_smile: x


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

stigDarley said:


> For me as a tax payer. No I don't think that people on certain benefits should be able to breed dogs.


I know many disabled older ladies who breed while on benefits. Not for money but because they are proud of one thing in their life that is theirs. They are health tested and looked after.

The thing is, if benefit money should only be used for bread, milk, electric and so on MOST bussiness's would lose money or even have to close if they sell non basic items...so pet food for example or any shop apart from ASDA.:blink:

Alot of pet owners are on benefits, they still buy good food for their animal, vaccinate, chip and look after it.

Better than having 1000 children that you cant look after.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

If people can afford their pets/their breeding "hobby" or whatever other hobby they want to do on their benefits, then go ahead. But it does make me wonder how the hell they manage given that benefits are supposed to be so little. 

I have no objection to people who are disabled or genuinely long term sick getting long term benefits, but those who don't have a job because they don't want one or what not need to get off their arse and sort themselves out. My OH was made redundant last week and was told he can't claim dole as I earn to much money and can pay his bills for him...but if i earned a bit less we would be able to. To me that stinks as there'll be someone down the road with a housefull of kids claiming shedloads...but I digress! 

Suppose its mega planning and mega saving...but there'd always be that little bit of doubt in my mind about something going wrong that I hadn't planned so I wouldn't personally do it.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

stigDarley said:


> For me as a tax payer. No I don't think that people on certain benefits should be able to breed dogs.
> 
> I've been watching working girls on BBC i player recently and some of the comments about Job seekers £130 for half an hours work blinding!
> 
> ...


I see your point but if on income based JSA and making money from breeding you have a duty legally to inform them. Which could lower your JSA for a few weeks or longer. So the problem is with people who abuse the system. 
Think if you are JSA you can legally work under 16 hours and still get full JSA, so sure income from proper breeding will be along the same lines. Do not know from personal experience but a breeder doing things correctly will only make a small profit (if any) once (maybe twice) a year so will not have hardly any affect on benefits. Anyone doing otherwise is committing fraud.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Living on minimum wage and benefit top-ups is chuffing hard!! Dont knock it till you've tried it!!
> 
> Me and my OH dont go out for meals, to pubs, cinema etc. We choose to spend our money on our dogs, including showing them and breeding them, we do it for love of the dogs and our chosen breed. I work chuffing hard to make ends meet and keep our own roof over our heads and what I choose to do as a hobby as chuff all to do with anyone else!!
> 
> ...


Agree completely.

I do not drink, smoke, go out or do anything "fun" all my fun in centered around my animals.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> On the one hand you will have people on benefits who are wonderful breeders, who look after and care far better for their pets than themselves a lot of the time but on the other hand you have a lot of people on benefits who drag dogs around, breed from them, kick them when out in public and use them as a status symbol. You actually dont have to be on benefits to see exactly the same things going on elsewhere. Being on benefits doesnt make an ounce of difference in my mind.


Each to their own view... But for me when i think of how hard i work how many hours I work and the things I have to go without. Then look at my Tax bill.... Especially before I was self employed. Then look at some people on certain benefits like the job seekers and the life of riley they had. It smarts a little.

Then when you come across people breeding on Job seekers to me that means that all the people going to work are paying tax to keep these people. Allowing them the luxury of being able to be home with the pups. While i have to get up at 7 and work till 6

(now i'm self employed even longer hours 80+ a week)

I have to admit it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I know benefits are there to help people. I suppose its distinguising between them. I would never begrudge someone a disabilty one. Especially if they honestly needed it. But the ones like job seekers and the length people can saty on them (total different subject i know!) I feel that no why should they get to maximise thier income. Which effectlivly me working is helping pay for!

This is just my opion and I know they are like bum holes everyone has them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I know many disabled older ladies who breed while on benefits. Not for money but because they are proud of one thing in their life that is theirs. They are health tested and looked after.
> 
> The thing is, if benefit money should only be used for bread, milk, electric and so on MOST bussiness's would lose money or even have to close if they sell non basic items...so pet food for example or any shop apart from ASDA.:blink:
> 
> ...


Ah, but you forget, the state keeps the kids, they don't keep your dogs!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> The thing is, if benefit money should only be used for bread, milk, electric and so on MOST bussiness's would lose money or even have to close if they sell non basic items...so pet food for example or any shop apart from ASDA.:blink:


Sorry, but what a load of tosh. For every person on benefits spending money then there'll be someone with some disposable income...I used to have at one stage before petrol got so high!

And if we need to pay someone benefits for them to keep someone else in business, what a sad state of affairs!

I can barely afford anything bar my milk, bread, food, petrol and dogs stuff as it is, and I'm aparently earning too much for my OH to claim anything whilst he's unemployed. Good job he's gone out and got an interview so soon, amazing really considering people on benefits regularly tell me there's nothing going...

I've worked best part of 45 hours a week the past 2 weeks to keep us afloat, and to me that fact that someone CAN afford some of the above, whilst claiming off the state for no good reason other than they can't be arsed to get a job doesn't sit right with me. Why should they have a hobby when I've had to give up all of mine?


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Living on minimum wage and benefit top-ups is chuffing hard!! Dont knock it till you've tried it!!
> 
> Me and my OH dont go out for meals, to pubs, cinema etc. We choose to spend our money on our dogs, including showing them and breeding them, we do it for love of the dogs and our chosen breed. I work chuffing hard to make ends meet and keep our own roof over our heads and what I choose to do as a hobby as chuff all to do with anyone else!!
> 
> ...


I think disability benefit is a toal different thing. In hind sight maybe i should of been specific about the type of benefit. Job seekers is the one that I don't think its fair to breed off... neither is it fair to go down the pup all the time while on Job seekers!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Ah, but you forget, the state keeps the kids, they don't keep your dogs!


Well they do if you're on benefits...


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Ah, but you forget, the state keeps the kids, they don't keep your dogs!


Aye but my dogs are not a drain on the government for the rest of their lives. My dogs wont be an issue once I am able to get a job. But maybe an extra person (child) would be £300 pregnancy grant, NHS costs, Education costs and more benefits a month. 


The government are not paying more money out to keep my dogs we are just being careful and using the money we get to do what we like doing (having our dogs) rather than smoking, drinking, going out and having babies.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Anyone breeding for money is wrong in my eyes, a strong opinion I know. And in that I include the so-called 'Top' show breeders, who have a registered breeding business and registered with the VAT man etc. Some of these breeders even refuse to take dogs back for re-homing that they've bred and leave them languishing in rescue - thats not right. 

Unless a person shows or works their dogs, to my mind, why the need to breed at all?? And it deffo shouldnt be seen an income - FULL STOP!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I know breeders that can tell you where every single puppy they ever bred is


As can many others! People believe what they want though


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I have to say, I am intrigued - I own 7 dogs and just that is expensive - 7 lots of insurance (I live in probably the cheapest area of the UK for insurance), 7 lots of food, 7 lots of worming and flea treatments, 7 annual boosters.

That alone costs me around £3K a year. Add to that I have (approximately) health tested one dog a year - that's another £1K - plus annual eye certificates. 

Then there's treats, bedding, crates, toys etc.

That's not including any costs of breeding or showing - for which you can probably add another few thousand a year.

That tells me - that on benefits - I could do all that, afford to live, run a car and pay all my bills  (my gas / electric and council tax come to around £250 a month!) - thats without the mortgage. 

I've clearly been doing something wrong all these years  

For the record - I don't go out, I don't drink, I buy clothes only when my existing ones fall apart at the seams - my TV is 15 years old - the only thing that is relatively modern is my computer equipment without which, I cannot run my business - I work well over a 40 hour week (luckily from home) - (when I have a litter after the first few days I am working with the whelping box in front of me 24x7). 

My partner also works full time and my daughter is grown up and has left home - we don't have holidays (other than when my SIL kindly bought us this years holiday for Christmas and my OH's 50th) and my OH goes to the football every other week - that in a nutshell is our life - every spare penny goes on my dogs. 

It now seems I don't need to work every hour god sends - as I can do it all for nothing  

If I didn't work - there is NO question - I would have to rehome some (and probably most) of my dogs - and certainly wouldn't be able to contemplate breeding - blimey - my food bill is around £100 a week when I have a litter


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

hawksport said:


> I know breeders that can tell you where every single puppy they ever bred is


Yeah, thank you Hawksport - coz I am one of them!!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I know many disabled older ladies who breed while on benefits. Not for money but because they are proud of one thing in their life that is theirs. They are health tested and looked after.
> 
> The thing is, if benefit money should only be used for bread, milk, electric and so on MOST bussiness's would lose money or even have to close if they sell non basic items...so pet food for example or any shop apart from ASDA.:blink:
> 
> ...


But if you read the second line that you didn't quote it said that diasbility benefit was one that I think there aren't restrictions over. Careers benefit is pittance for what people have to do which is a job! So again not one i'd personally be botherd over!

Job seekers is there to keep people alive while they look for a job. Breeding a dog and the 24hour 8 week stint requiered to look after the puppies. I don't think its fair on that benefit... it's not the purpose it was designed for.

As lovely as it is for the disabled ladies to breed to get the sense of purpose. Could they finacially cope with all the pupiies coming back? Or do they only breed once or twice? Its a interesting thought.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I think disability benefit is a toal different thing. In hind sight maybe i should of been specific about the type of benefit. Job seekers is the one that I don't think its fair to breed off... neither is it fair to go down the pup all the time while on Job seekers!


Agreed.

Major difference between those working as carers (and I mean the ones that genuinely do, not the ones that say the do then actually don't) the ones that genuinely need help (disability etc, not faking it) and the ones that simply can't be arsed to get a job because its easier for everyone else to pay for them.

It stinks, and something that is particularly high up on my list of bug bears at the moment considering what is going on with my granddad. Worked all his life and now is sick at the age of 83 and looking likely to go into a care home, the state will basically give him jack sh** towards it, and force him to sell his house, the money he's saved DESPITE THE FACT he's paid tax all his life, never claimed any benefit whatsoever, yet you've got some scrounger down the road living off MY tax money because they can't be arsed to get a job.

Whatever happened to good, old fashioned work ethic.

BUT, this is a different debate. Phew.

Back to the oringinal one... (bad H&H)....


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I know off topic here now.. 
But Im thinking more people who have bred.. dont have a clue where there pups have gone.. and possibly half didn't give a stuff as soon as they had the wonga in their hands.. 
so random hundred people have bred a litter.. 
I reckon 20 out of them possibly know where there pups went for all their life... 
out of the 80 left.. probably 40 kinda of know but lost touch and 40 didn't care as soon as the wonga hit their hands.. 

These are purely my thoughts.. and out of all that I reckon possibly 4o people have had quite a few dogs of theirs go through rescue..

I could be way out?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

swarthy said:


> That tells me - that on benefits - I could do all that, afford to live, run a car and pay all my bills  (my gas / electric and council tax come to around £250 a month!) - thats without the mortgage.


I need to move. My council tax is £120 a month!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

i dont care what they do if they make a few quid good luck to them i just like to mind my own:001_smile:


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

stigDarley said:


> As lovely as it is for the disabled ladies to breed to get the sense of purpose. Could they finacially cope with all the pupiies coming back? Or do they only breed once or twice? Its a interesting thought.


Once every 3-4 years or when they want a pup. (They always have waiting lists as long as their arm because they barely breed).

They are lucky in the breed they are in is one that rarely gets rescues so if an older pup is sent back and the breeder is happy the breed club will arrange one person off the 2-3 year waiting list to come and look at it and any money goes to the breed club.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Well they do if you're on benefits...


The benefits system gives people extra money for each child; they don't give you extra money for dogs, or any other pets.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Perhaps we should all stop pointing the finger at those dog owners/breeders/show folk on benefits, unless you know them personally and know exactly what benefits they claim and why, surely its not fair to generalise and pontificate about whether its right or wrong for them to do what they do?????

Dont judge lest you be judged yourself!!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> The benefits system gives people extra money for each child; they don't give you extra money for dogs, or any other pets.


Ahh right, sorry, I misread what you were saying.

Perhaps I need to churn a few sprogs out, jack in work and live the life of riley then...


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> so random hundred people have bred a litter..
> I reckon 20 out of them possibly know where there pups went for all their life...
> out of the 80 left.. probably 40 kinda of know but lost touch and 40 didn't care as soon as the wonga hit their hands..


The sad thing is you might be right, but I guess the amount of owners breeders stay incontact with reflects the type of breeder they are. From my experience again all I can talk about is that them breeding for work/show ect stay incontact with more owners than them breeding for a pet market.

Anyways I can see where this thread is going - and I have a 1000 word report to write on a cows and birds digestive and excretory system ---- shoot me now  

Play nicely all


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

As someone who is on benefits, id personally say no, i dont think its right. 

Its one thing to own a dog and be hard up, and another to breed at the expense of others.

I am on quite a high rate, and i struggle just to maintain the basics of food, insurance, vet fees etc. I honestly cant see how people can manage it, unless they massively cut corners or are getting money from external sources. Ive been in debt to my vets for about a year now, and pay off what i can, when i can. If they werent so understanding, id have to seriously consider rehoming.

Both my dogs are from when i was working full time and able to support myself and them. Now i feel guilty for having them, and their needs being met with money i have not slaved for. I wouldnt even contemplate getting another dog whilst on benefits, unless there was no hope of ever returning to work.

My boys are all i have in my life, but thats my problem, not the UK tax payers. Benefits are for basic survival, not for luxuries which dogs are.

If people are smoking, drinking, going on holiday, having fancy games consoles, flat screens etc, then they are getting way too much money and its no wonder this country is struggling which many vital services being cut.

It also states in my housing agreement, that the premises are not to be used for business, which includes the breeding of any animals. The DWP doesnt care about the outlay of breeding, just the income from it.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Perhaps we should all stop pointing the finger at those dog owners/breeders/show folk on benefits, unless you know them personally and know exactly what benefits they claim and why, surely its not fair to generalise and pontificate about whether its right or wrong for them to do what they do?????
> 
> Dont judge lest you be judged yourself!!


I can't see anyone pointing a finger at anyone, just having a general discussion?

Those people on job seekers, IMHO shouldn't be considering breeding. Job seekers is there to support you short term whilst you get a job and back on your feet...that is unless your parter earns too much money .

Carers allowance isn't IMHO a benefit, that's a job in itself, for those that do it properly, not those that simply claim and then don't. Same with disability allowances.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> Ahh right, sorry, I misread what you were saying.
> 
> Perhaps I need to churn a few sprogs out, jack in work and live the life of riley then...


why not :001_smile:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I think 20 out of the 100 knowing where every puppy is for the rest of it's life is optomistic


Im trying not to upset anyone..


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> I know off topic here now..
> But Im thinking more people who have bred.. dont have a clue where there pups have gone.. and possibly half didn't give a stuff as soon as they had the wonga in their hands..
> so random hundred people have bred a litter..
> I reckon 20 out of them possibly know where there pups went for all their life...
> ...


I agree there would be such results if you asked a random 100 people who have bred (whether byb or responsible). Though the same kind of results could be gained from 100 breeders on benefits or 100 breeders not on benefits. I would guess a high percentage of BYB's are on benefits, but that does not make all breeders on benefits BYB's/in it for the money.

I think also the problem is with how easy it is to get JSA, and keep claiming it for an extremely long time. But also if I got £65 per week (or whatever it is) JSA what business is it to anyone what I spend it on?

I think this thread and the other could open up a much broader question or indeed many other questions? "Should it be so easy to get benefits such as JSA" "Should JSA only be spent on certain things", "Should people on benefits not have cars, holidays etc"


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## fessie (Mar 30, 2009)

iam on benefits and i own 2 cats a dog and rabbits and 2 piggies my dog is fully vaced
and iam getting him insured 
and i probs could breed dogs if i wanted but i wouldnt be that selfish 
even when i get a job and even people who have jobs get benefits 
so if your so against them dont claim your bit


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

jamie1977 said:


> I think also the problem is with how easy it is to get JSA, and keep claiming it for an extremely long time. But also if I got £65 per week (or whatever it is) JSA what business is it to anyone what I spend it on?
> 
> I think this thread and the other could open up a much broader question or indeed many other questions? "Should it be so easy to get benefits such as JSA" "Should JSA only be spent on certain things", "Should people on benefits not have cars, holidays etc"


I dont and have not claimed JSA. However I know someone that does and has for ages now and he raises his kid on it. He lost his job because his girlfriend turned up and trashed the work place because she got jealous.

So I have no idea how JSA works. When I used to work inbetween jobs (they were temp placements) I always had money aside incase so I never needed to claim.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jamie1977 said:


> I agree there would be such results if you asked a random 100 people who have bred (whether byb or responsible). Though the same kind of results could be gained from 100 breeders on benefits or 100 breeders not on benefits. I would guess a high percentage of BYB's are on benefits, but that does not make all breeders on benefits BYB's/in it for the money.
> 
> I think also the problem is with how easy it is to get JSA, and keep claiming it for an extremely long time. But also if I got £65 per week (or whatever it is) JSA what business is it to anyone what I spend it on?
> 
> I think this thread and the other could open up a much broader question or indeed many other questions? "Should it be so easy to get benefits such as JSA" "Should JSA only be spent on certain things", "Should people on benefits not have cars, holidays etc"


Jamie.. My comment as I stated I was off topic.. was in no way relation to anyone on benefits.. Purely my thoughts on general breeding..


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Jamie.. My comment as I stated I was off topic.. was in no way relation to anyone on benefits.. Purely my thoughts on general breeding..


I know loads of breeders yet the best show breeders I know dont really keep track of their pups.

A breeder "friend" of mine contacted me a bit back to say she had a pup returned to her in a disgusting state. When I asked what information she took before giving the pup to the people she said "name and address", no checks on the family, no updates of pictures.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Jamie.. My comment as I stated I was off topic.. was in no way relation to anyone on benefits.. Purely my thoughts on general breeding..


I understand. Only the first part was directed at you, regarding I agree with your asking 100 random breeders.

I should of made it more clear that the 2nd paragraph was a general comment.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

The couple who bred both my dogs, and have quite a few newfies about the place, asked if I would be interested in having one of their bitches on a breeding basis, i.e. she goes back to them for breeding a litter, she is mine the rest of the time. They were doing this because they could not afford to keep her. This despite charging £1200 for each puppy. They spend a fortune of health tests, only breed from really good, champion stock, and spend a lot of money going about Europe and the UK winning shows, to be sure they are breeding only the best dogs. They had two challenge certificates at Crufts this year.

They are not on benefits, he is a police officer. So tell me where there is any money to be made in breeding if you are doing it properly?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Perhaps we should all stop pointing the finger at those dog owners/breeders/show folk on benefits, unless you know them personally and know exactly what benefits they claim and why, surely its not fair to generalise and pontificate about whether its right or wrong for them to do what they do?????
> 
> Dont judge lest you be judged yourself!!


I would like to make it clear that I have not pointed the finger at anyone - I have just outlined my own circumstances and asked if that could be done on benefits, at the end of the day there is only so many corners that can be cut in day to day living.

I also read your posts and your circumstances - one of you was working - which I assume also means that there is a level of support at home for the pups - even if it is only watching (for the record I would LOVE my OH to retire and do the puppy watching and be a house hubby  - then they changed the terms of his retirement rights  )


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> So tell me where there is any money to be made in breeding if you are doing it properly?


Its not...

Unless you have ALOT of breeding dogs.

You would have to pump out alot of litters, rarely keep any back, not really health test (or do bare min) to get a profit.:glare:


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## Souris (May 24, 2010)

I'm not going to make a comment on the question, but I'd like to state this fact that my other half was told to tell people when he worked briefly in the benefits department. You are not allowed to go out and do volunteering work (even if it will help you get into a job) whilst on JSA as the money you're being paid is to keep you going whilst you search for a job- and you have to be ready at any given moment at a drop of a hat to go to work if it's offered to you. 

How is raising a litter any different to volunteering really? You can hardly search for a job when you've got your eyes on pups 24 7, and even if you do search then you can hardly go to interviews/start whilst you have a litter at home.

Surely then having a litter is breaking the terms and conditions of JSA? Sure, breeding is a 'hobby', but most hobbies don't include sitting out for a few weeks at a time dedicating your time to the pups. You're not supposed to go on holiday either (and certainly in his department if you were found out to have gone on holiday the JSA would have ceased). Edit: That and you would have been charged for fraud, which needless to say, they don't take lightly these days!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> They are not on benefits, he is a police officer. So tell me where there is any money to be made in breeding if you are doing it properly?


But doesn't that show you though that if they work and can't afford it, how on earth can people on benefits?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Souris said:


> Surely then having a litter is breaking the terms and conditions of JSA? Sure, breeding is a 'hobby', but most hobbies don't include sitting out for a few weeks at a time dedicating your time to the pups. You're not supposed to go on holiday either (and certainly in his department if you were found out to have gone on holiday the JSA would have ceased).


Oooh, very interesting thought.

But people cheat the system loads of times, see it day in day out.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Souris said:


> I'm not going to make a comment on the question, but I'd like to state this fact that my other half was told to tell people when he worked briefly in the benefits department. You are not allowed to go out and do volunteering work (even if it will help you get into a job) whilst on JSA as the money you're being paid is to keep you going whilst you search for a job- and you have to be ready at any given moment at a drop of a hat to go to work if it's offered to you.
> 
> How is raising a litter any different to volunteering really? You can hardly search for a job when you've got your eyes on pups 24 7, and even if you do search then you can hardly go to interviews/start whilst you have a litter at home.
> 
> Surely then having a litter is breaking the terms and conditions of JSA? Sure, breeding is a 'hobby', but most hobbies don't include sitting out for a few weeks at a time dedicating your time to the pups. You're not supposed to go on holiday either (and certainly in his department if you were found out to have gone on holiday the JSA would have ceased). Edit: That and you would have been charged for fraud, which needless to say, they don't take lightly these days!


that is interesting. When i was on JSA (a while ago) you could do volunteer work plus work upto 16 hours a week and still get JSA. I did not not do any of those, just what i was told.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Souris said:


> I'm not going to make a comment on the question, but I'd like to state this fact that my other half was told to tell people when he worked briefly in the benefits department. You are not allowed to go out and do volunteering work (even if it will help you get into a job) whilst on JSA as the money you're being paid is to keep you going whilst you search for a job- and you have to be ready at any given moment at a drop of a hat to go to work if it's offered to you.


Not on JSA but can you clear this up for me....as my friends on JSA and is volunteering at a nursery.

The website (benefits states).


> How volunteering affects your benefits
> Volunteering shouldnt affect your right to benefits, as long as the only money you receive is to cover your volunteering expenses, such as travel from home to the volunteering location.
> There are no limits on the amount of time you can volunteer for as long as you continue to meet the conditions of the benefit or tax credit you are receiving.
> For example if you receive Jobseekers Allowance you must still be actively seeking a full-time job, able to attend job interviews at 48 hours notice and available to work at one weeks notice.
> ...


Volunteering while on benefits : Directgov - Home and community


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

jamie1977 said:


> that is interesting. When i was on JSA (a while ago) you could do volunteer work plus work upto 16 hours a week and still get JSA. I did not not do any of those, just what i was told.


here we go, it mentions the 16 hours here - Jobseeker's Allowance : Directgov - Money, tax and benefits


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## Souris (May 24, 2010)

He worked there about a year ago just before he got into his teaching degree actually. They were told that volunteering isn't allowed (or if you did do it to keep it VERY MUCH on the quiet), you could work up to eight hours: however you had to declare it and it was means tested whether you'd still get any at all. What they basically did was worked out how much you're being paid, took it off what they would normally pay you on JSA, and if they was a big difference between the two then you'd get the difference. However, most payments of JSA was 45 pounds a week so by the time you've worked eight hours then you're not likely to get much back - if anything. You'd have to be working for absolute pittance (or for free), as even at minimum wage you'd make close to 45!

We still have a friend that works in there and they're getting stricter by the day on the people that do claim.



> Not on JSA but can you clear this up for me....as my friends on JSA and is volunteering at a nursery.
> 
> The website (benefits states).


Right, the issue is what the council thinks of as "being able to work". Obviously, if you are volunteering rather extensively then you're breaking the "looking for work" rule. I know the one up here frowned upon ANY volunteering, and the rule was pretty much a 'don't do it'. Other councils may see it differently, but your friend is walking a very fine tightrope as it only takes one member of staff to say she's doing too much time volunteering and isn't spending enough time job hunting and bam bye bye benefits.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I would find it very amusing and annoying if someone told me they could breed whilst on benefits, i know nothing about how much breeding a bitch costs exactly only that it isnt cheap, i also know nothing about how much the average person on benefits get but what i do know is that most people on benefits moan how little they get and how hard it is then suddenly they have enough left over to breed, strange how some people change their minds to suit. So they are either getting too much money or they arnt breeding properly, health tests etc, so my opinion is no they shouldnt be breeding on benefits because they shouldnt be able to afford it.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Souris said:


> He worked there about a year ago just before he got into his teaching degree actually. They were told that volunteering isn't allowed (or if you did do it to keep it VERY MUCH on the quiet), you could work up to eight hours: however you had to declare it and it was means tested whether you'd still get any at all. What they basically did was worked out how much you're being paid, took it off what they would normally pay you on JSA, and if they was a big difference between the two then you'd get the difference. However,* most payments of JSA was 45 pounds a week *so by the time you've worked eight hours then you're not likely to get much back - if anything. You'd have to be working for absolute pittance (or for free), as even at minimum wage you'd make close to 45!
> 
> We still have a friend that works in there and they're getting stricter by the day on the people that do claim.


Going off topic now but when I was on JSA I got about £60-65 a week. I do know it's lower if you're under a certain age, but I am not that old :lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Souris said:


> We still have a friend that works in there and they're getting stricter by the day on the people that do claim.


Yip, and the reason for that is people have taken the piss.

What started as a way for people to keep going whilst they were out of work turned into a way of life for some and to be honest, even if they are more strict there will always be those that flount the system.

They are means testing partners as well now. My OH can't get anything as I earn above a threshold deemed adequate to pay all his bills as well as my own.

Beans on toast for tea again tonight!!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Souris said:


> He worked there about a year ago just before he got into his teaching degree actually. They were told that volunteering isn't allowed (or if you did do it to keep it VERY MUCH on the quiet), you could work up to eight hours: *however you had to declare it and it was means tested whether you'd still get any at all. What they basically did was worked out how much you're being paid, took it off what they would normally pay you on JSA,* and if they was a big difference between the two then you'd get the difference. However, most payments of JSA was 45 pounds a week so by the time you've worked eight hours then you're not likely to get much back - if anything. You'd have to be working for absolute pittance (or for free), as even at minimum wage you'd make close to 45!
> 
> We still have a friend that works in there and they're getting stricter by the day on the people that do claim.


That would sound right..  Cause they could get a job that paid £10.00 an hour in that 8 hours.. 
Im on a decent hourly rate I think I am but it scuppers me most for benefits.. which is fine as I am quite happy working the hours I do..


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> Why not??
> 
> Some breeds dont have as many health tests recommended as others, some breeds whelp better than others, therefore less vet intervention.
> 
> First litter we bred OH was on benefits (still is) and I only worked part time on minimum wage and we managed just fine!!


But you were never living solely on benefits.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I just thought it it might be difficult to and i didn't think someone doing it properly, who were living completely on benefits would be do it, that was all.

I have nothing against anyone on benefits doing it, if the can manage their budget then thats great for them.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Your definition of best must be different to mine


I should re-word it, I meant breeders producing the best show dogs.:blink:


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

May be off topic, but what are peoples thoughts on people that do full time jobs for a minimum wage that are over 25 (think that's the minimum age) that claim working tax credits. Is it right that they spend that upto £55 a week to breed?


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> I see your point but if on income based JSA and making money from breeding you have a duty legally to inform them. Which could lower your JSA for a few weeks or longer. So the problem is with people who abuse the system.
> Think if you are JSA you can legally work under 16 hours and still get full JSA, so sure income from proper breeding will be along the same lines. Do not know from personal experience but a breeder doing things correctly will only make a small profit (if any) once (maybe twice) a year so will not have hardly any affect on benefits. Anyone doing otherwise is committing fraud.


But the biggest point for me is they are spending 24/7 7 days for 8 weeks. They won't have the time or energy to look for jobs...


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jamie1977 said:


> May be off topic, but what are peoples thoughts on people that do full time jobs for a minimum wage that are over 25 (think that's the minimum age) that claim working tax credits. Is it right that they spend that upto £55 a week to breed?


I think dunno Jamie.. everyone is different maybe start a new thread on benefits.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

back on topic. is it fair??

well if someone can breed a litter while on benefits, somebreeders have outlined the cost to do so on another thread some running into a couple of thousand £'s , good luck to them cos i know i struggled to survive on £98 a week with 6 dogs and no litter.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

stigDarley said:


> But the biggest point for me is they are spending 24/7 7 days for 8 weeks. They won't have the time or energy to look for jobs...


Which is a good point if the person is on JSA, as they are not carrying out duties expected of them. But this thread has "benefits" in it's title. If you titled it by replacing "benefits" with "JSA" I think comments (on the whole)would be a lil different.


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## Souris (May 24, 2010)

You also had to declare if you had any savings, and that would effect your JSA as well. So, even if you save some money on a weekly basis from JSA then you're committing fraud unless you declare it: which could then stop/lower your JSA. 

On the topic of breeders, I can't get away from mine- not that I mind, I think it's brill to keep in touch with her! She's on my facebook and is always after new pictures of Pixel, she REALLY cares about her litters and I'm more than happy to keep her so up to date. She's got Pixel's sisters owners on facebook too and it's lovely to have a daily update on the entire litter despite the fact that we're spread out all over england.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Theres no way someone on JSA could breed dogs, unless there was some major neglect going on, or illegal income.

Its barely enough to provide the basics for a person, in terms of food, bills etc. It was £60.65 a week.How on earth would that amount support a person, a bitch, a litter of pups and vet bills?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> May be off topic, but what are peoples thoughts on people that do full time jobs for a minimum wage that are over 25 (think that's the minimum age) that claim working tax credits. Is it right that they spend that upto £55 a week to breed?


I can't truthfully answer the first question - so that one is even trickier 

Often - the minimum wage paid is through no fault of the employee - I am pretty sure NO-ONE willingly takes a deliberately low paid job so they can get 'tax credits' - those are government rules.

If someone is working and is frugal and can afford to do it properly and have someone available to watch the pups - I put that in a different category.

That doesn't mean I understand how they afford to do it - that's a different subject all together -maybe it's me that is doing something wrong.

I know we have now three times put off having litters because of the fear of the work situation and the general economic climate and that's with having one full-time wage coming in whatever happens with my work.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jamie1977 said:


> Which is a good point if the person is on JSA, as they are not carrying out duties expected of them. But this thread has "benefits" in it's title. If you titled it by replacing "benefits" with "JSA" I think comments (on the whole)would be a lil different.


In the first post ...

*Do you think it right that someone become a breeder while on benfits? Dole job seekers etc?*

Poster is talking about people who aren't working... or who are meant to be actively seeking a job..


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Depends what anyone means by "benefits" 

I once claimed, I think it was called carer's allowance and maybe another one, can't remember what it was called then, sorry. Basically not means tested, so no ones business but my own what I spent it on :001_tt2:

It was probably mostly wine and nights out 

If people wanted to spend their's on responsible dog breeding, that would be thier shout


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Probably, the only ones who can/should be able to breed, are those on the high rate of DLA, who are never going to be able to work due to poor health.

DLA is the largest benefit paid as far as i know, and with it the opportunity for numerous grants and council assistance, depending on the persons condition.

Anyone who is on a break from work for one reason or another, should just face the fact you cant have everything in life.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't think I could afford to breed a litter on benefits.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Probably, the only ones who can/should be able to breed, are those on the high rate of DLA, who are never going to be able to work due to poor health.


To be frank, those entitled to that should not physically be in the position to breed ANY animal, you need to be pretty ill to be eligible for that 

Just my thoughts.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

hi when I was on income support I was told I was allowed up to £6000 in savings. I suppose if someone had savings then they could quite easily raise a litter of puppies. Also you can earn up to £20 a week anything over this and your benefits get deducted. Im not sure how this would work if a breeder did make a profit, how they would work out how much money needs to be deducted. I myself do not see how unless you already have savings you can afford to raise a litter of puppies, i could barely afford to pay my bills! Mind you i know someone that has five kids and gets a pretty penny in benefits

I dont have a problem as long as the puppies are well breed and cared for and the breeder is not doing it for the money.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> To be frank, those entitled to that should not physically be in the position to breed ANY animal, you need to be pretty ill to be eligible for that
> 
> Just my thoughts.


Actually, my OH is on high level DLA and you wouldnt know it to look at him....


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> In the first post ...
> 
> *Do you think it right that someone become a breeder while on benfits? Dole job seekers etc?*
> 
> Poster is talking about people who aren't working... or who are meant to be actively seeking a job..


I understand that. But there is a vast array of benefits some which could fund a breeding programme better than others. Not just in amount of money given (to be fair they are all low), but also in justification for claiming. I do think it is far too easy to sit around on JSA for example for long periods, and that is one benefit i do not think anyone would find it easy to breed dogs from. That is not to say it's impossible, but would take alot of planning and saving.

But you will get many people abuse the system whether on benefits or working and doing it via the tax system for example. I for one would find it hard to breed dogs if still on JSA. Well hard without cutting corners, and I mean alot of corners


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

You know my thoughts on this thread.. A poll should have been put up... And the thread should have been shut to only the poll.. then discussion about it later..


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> I understand that. But there is a vast array of benefits some which could fund a breeding programme better than others. Not just in amount of money given (to be fair they are all low), but also in justification for claiming. I do think it is far too easy to sit around on JSA for example for long periods, and that is one benefit i do not think anyone would find it easy to breed dogs from. That is not to say it's impossible, but would take alot of planning and saving.
> 
> But you will get many people abuse the system whether on benefits or working and doing it via the tax system for example. I for one would find it hard to breed dogs if still on JSA. Well hard without cutting corners, and I mean alot of corners


Benefits are benefits as far as ime concerned and ime sure they wernt set up to start a business or fund a hobby, benefits are suppose to help people with day to day living, not breed animals.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Benefits are benefits as far as ime concerned and ime sure they wernt set up to start a business or fund a hobby, benefits are suppose to help people with day to day living, not breed animals.


There are some benefits where this would be acceptable, but not many.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Benefits are benefits as far as ime concerned and ime sure they wernt set up to start a business or fund a hobby, benefits are suppose to help people with day to day living, not breed animals.


But then you could start a whole new thread on......

Should people on benefits have children
Should people on benefits have holidays
Should people on benefits smoke or drink etc

Just to add there is a benefit for starting a business, the government give you £50 a week :lol: Though that ends tomorrow I believe


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Actually, my OH is on high level DLA and you wouldnt know it to look at him....


I have to say you have to be very careful when making judgements about people's health - I have in some ways learnt that the hard way over the last couple of years.

I quite possibly would be in a position in recent years to claim Disability Benefits - but if you looked at me - you wouldn't have a clue there was anything wrong.

I have good days and bad days (I've actually had a really bad week and not left the house since last Wednesday which is probably why I am being even sharper than usual as I am climbing the walls atm  )

On a good day I can bounce around the showring like a woman 20 years younger - on a bad day - it's hard (and yes it is physical illness) - but there are also possibly some psychological illnesses which render people unable to work (or a poor employment prospect and therefore they struggle to get gainful employment).

It's a bit of a tricky one again - in truth - if I didn't work - I don't think I could do it - but I think you have to be very careful on judging anyone with a long term chronic illness - because you simply don't know the ins and outs of that condition.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I have to say you have to be very careful when making judgements about people's health - I have in some ways learnt that the hard way over the last couple of years.
> 
> I quite possibly would be in a position in recent years to claim Disability Benefits - but if you looked at me - you wouldn't have a clue there was anything wrong.
> 
> ...


Sounds like my OH.

On a good day he can do almost normal things (though hes limited because he has to rest it off twice as much).

On a bad day hes bed ridden or in hospital.

Its a flip coin, its okay looking "normal" but it also means more people judge you based on looks.

My brother Sam, has autistic, cant talk or walk without someone with him and is in nappies.

Once we went to ASDA I walked Sam around, he started to kick off so I carried (7 stone) him all the way back to the car as he was kicking me and screaming. I got him to the car and a lady shouted "I am ringing the police kidnaps against the law".....I told her if she wanted to come deal with him she can. She soon shut up.

A few weeks later a similar incident happened and someone shouted "Another spoilt brat".

Does he need to wear a T-shirt saying that he cant talk and is autistic? Just because he looks normal.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I personally do not think that any benefit money should be spent on dog breeding.

I think if you want to become a breeder then you need to be earning and ensure you have saved to cover all your expenses and a contingency. So you need to put this off until you are working.

Benefit money is given to help people buy food and pay for housing and heating.

I also don't agree that benefit money should be spent on any expensive hobbies and luxuries such as playstations and massive tv's etc.....

Also I find it amazing that people living in HA homes or privately rented can be allowed to breed? most people these days are finding it hard pressed to find a landlord that allows pets let alone one that allows them, plus breeding and the selling of the puppies!!!!!!


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I personally do not think that any benefit money should be spent on dog breeding.
> 
> I think if you want to become a breeder then you need to be earning and ensure you have saved to cover all your expenses and a contingency. So you need to put this off until you are working.
> 
> ...


That is a valid point. But not all breeders on benefits are in such accommodation. But yes if a breeder does fit that bill they are contravening their housing agreement.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Also I find it amazing that people living in HA homes or privately rented can be allowed to breed? most people these days are finding it hard pressed to find a landlord that allows pets let alone one that allows them, plus breeding and the selling of the puppies!!!!!!


Ultimately that is no ones business but the breeder and their landlord


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Ultimately that is no ones business but the breeder and their landlord


True they may have permission.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Ultimately that is no ones business but the breeder and their landlord


I do.  Was discussed when we first went and viewed the house.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I do.  Was discussed when we first went and viewed the house.


I would imagine there are a lot of respectable breeders who rent their homes 

And why not if Landlord, whether private or otherwise is happy. Not sure what the official stance is with social housing though? But why should it be an issue if done correctly? As long as there aren't nosy, moany, neighbours


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> That is a valid point. But not all breeders on benefits are in such accommodation. But yes if a breeder does fit that bill they are contravening their housing agreement.


Yes of course Jamie there are people who do own their own homes.

I have worked for a few Training companies in partnership with the jobcentre for many years helping unemployed clients back into work. These ranged from New deal, 18-24, those on disability, lone parents, People with learning needs etc....

So believe me I know a lot what goes on both with clients and the jobcentre 

Though I am no longer working in that area as on a career break.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I would imagine there are a lot of respectable breeders who rent their homes
> 
> And why not if Landlord, whether private or otherwise is happy. Not sure what the official stance is with social housing though? But why should it be an issue if done correctly? As long as there aren't nosy, moany, neighbours


Not 100% sure about HA houses I should think that you just give them a ring and explain and again agree to have the house cleaned before you leave.

My landlord knew about my dogs, cats and my intentions to breed the day we went to view the house because my animals are important. I have seen to many people have to give up their animals because of hiding them from their landlords.

I have written consent from my landlord.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Yes of course Jamie there are people who do own their own homes.
> 
> I have worked for a few Training companies in partnership with the jobcentre for many years helping unemployed clients back into work. These ranged from New deal, 18-24, those on disability, lone parents, People with learning needs etc....
> 
> ...


I do wonder how many people do contravene their housing agreements though or do not even consider it.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Ultimately that is no ones business but the breeder and their landlord


I think you find that this is a topic started for a debate therefore all info relating to breeding and benefits would be pertinent would it not 

Otherwise a lot of peoples answers and threads on this forum could have answers as "it's no- one elses business" and that would make for a good debate (not )


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## fessie (Mar 30, 2009)

i have a 42 inch tv and a xbox and they have ds each i got my tv and xbox out of littlewoods cat 
which someone working could pay for out right my kids come 1st 
saying my kids shouldnt have stuff is rubbish


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think you find that this is a topic started for a debate therefore all info relating to breeding and benefits would be pertinent would it not
> 
> Otherwise a lot of peoples answers and threads on this forum could have answers as "it's no- one elses business" and that would make for a good debate (not )


But seriously, what has it to do with any of us what someone does in THEIR own home if their landlord is happy. I appreciate you might think it isn't appropriate as you said ~

"Also I find it amazing that people living in HA homes or privately rented can be allowed to breed? most people these days are finding it hard pressed to find a landlord that allows pets let alone one that allows them, plus breeding and the selling of the puppies!!!!!!"

As long as it's a good breeder, good for them I say :thumbup1:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

fessie said:


> i have a 42 inch tv and a xbox and they have ds each i got my tv and xbox out of littlewoods cat
> which someone working could pay for out right my kids come 1st
> saying my kids shouldnt have stuff is rubbish


Tut, tut, get those things on ebay and buy you and the bairns a hair shirt


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## fessie (Mar 30, 2009)

i dont like ebay i keep getting out bidded lol


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

fessie said:


> i dont like ebay i keep getting out bidded lol


I will do a search for you for hair shirts, try and get you a bargain 

Seriously, I know for most people it IS hard living on benefits and it must be doubly so if you have little ones. x


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> But seriously, what has it to do with any of us what someone does in THEIR own home if their landlord is happy. I appreciate you might think it isn't appropriate as you said ~
> 
> "Also I find it amazing that people living in HA homes or privately rented can be allowed to breed? most people these days are finding it hard pressed to find a landlord that allows pets let alone one that allows them, plus breeding and the selling of the puppies!!!!!!"
> 
> As long as it's a good breeder, good for them I say :thumbup1:


What they do in their own homes is up to them. What they do with benefit money is subject to comment.

However, I was saying I find it amazing because how many times on here do you here people or know of someone saying I have got to get rid of my dog because my landlord won't let me have one?

People do find it very hard to find homes where they can have a dog let alone more than one.

That was my point.


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## fessie (Mar 30, 2009)

yes its crap boring when kids at school i have filled in more apps for jobs then anything else 
id rather work and have a house like my sister and brother then the crap house iam in now 
cheap housing you can keep it


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> What they do in their own homes is up to them. What they do with benefit money is subject to comment.
> 
> However, I was saying I find it amazing because how many times on here do you here people or know of someone saying I have got to get rid of my dog because my landlord won't let me have one?
> 
> ...


Personally I believe how people spend their benefit money is totally their business ... just my opinion. They can spend it all on chocolate for me :001_tt1:

The "landlord says" thing is all a bit suspect in my experience 
People have usually got dogs when it is against tenancy agreement, move in with one without permission or their dogs are such a nuisance to neighbours/destructive things get out of hand.

While there may be genuine cases, mostly it's simply another excuse to get rid of their pet


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> *Personally I believe how people spend their benefit money is totally their business ... jus*t my opinion. They can spend it all on chocolate for me :001_tt1:
> 
> The "landlord says" thing is all a bit suspect in my experience
> People have usually got dogs when it is against tenancy agreement, move in with one without permission or their dogs are such a nuisance to neighbours/destructive things get out of hand.
> ...


I use to feel like that to some degree, but after working with the unemployed and jobcentre you quickly harden.

When you see how many don't want to work or have never worked and how much other stuff goes on it changes you.

They were not all like that of course some were lovely and some were just unlucky.

But having adults coming in at the age of 40 and never worked- or youngsters more interested in getting high.

I have seen violence too and angry outbursts- when all you want to do is help someone find work. I also had to deal with a client on my own who had learning difficulties and kept getting sexual

Part of my former job roles also included working with criminals, drug addicts and alcoholics.

Anyway I digress- but just saying that my take on how benefits are to be used is influenced by working with people claiming.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> But then you could start a whole new thread on......
> 
> Should people on benefits have children
> Should people on benefits have holidays
> ...


Someone with children will get more benefits, someone with a dog wont.
holidays are a luxury
smoking and drinking are a luxury
Breeding animals means having money behind you or enough money coming in to afford it, if anyone has disposable income enough to pay for breeding animals then they are getting far too much.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Someone with children will get more benefits, someone with a dog wont.
> holidays are a luxury
> smoking and drinking are a luxury
> Breeding animals means having money behind you or enough money coming in to afford it, *if anyone has disposable income enough to pay for breeding animals then they are getting far too much*.


Then you are automatically assuming *all* people on benefits are extremely poor and have no savings 

Regarding the luxuries you mentioned (which I agree they are) many people on benefits do take an annual holiday, do smoke (alot) and do drink. But there are many people on benefits who do not smoke,drink, go on holidays. So should we say "Right if you do not need that £5 odd a week for a packet of cigs you should get £5 less benefits"? No of course not. People who do not spend on luxeries (unless used elsewhere i.e food/bills) will save it. It is then their business what they do with that money they save, or indeed did have saved prior to going on benefits.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> *Someone with children will get more benefits, someone with a dog wont.*holidays are a luxury
> smoking and drinking are a luxury
> Breeding animals means having money behind you or enough money coming in to afford it, if anyone has disposable income enough to pay for breeding animals then they are getting far too much.


Also is having extra benefit for having children open to abuse? Most probably there are people out there who have had extra children or indeed a child just to get more money. But you will not find someone getting/breeding dogs just for extra benefits, because it does not exist


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Do you really believe that they would say save £5,£10 a week for as long as it takes to breed responsibly, i really dont think so it would take a very long time to save up enough money, or they are just breeding regardless of what should be done.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

jamie1977 said:


> Then you are automatically assuming *all* people on benefits are extremely poor and have no savings
> 
> Regarding the luxuries you mentioned (which I agree they are) many people on benefits do take an annual holiday, do smoke (alot) and do drink. But there are many people on benefits who do not smoke,drink, go on holidays. So should we say "Right if you do not need that £5 odd a week for a packet of cigs you should get £5 less benefits"? No of course not. People who do not spend on luxeries (unless used elsewhere i.e food/bills) will save it. It is then their business what they do with that money they save, or indeed did have saved prior to going on benefits.


Rep coming.

I have not been on holiday since 2001. (well before I left home I did go to my OH's granddads 90's birthday in Scotland but it was train there, eat and train back and was not paid for by us).

I dont smoke or drink.


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Very easy 4 folks to generalise, walk a mile is someone elses shoes first b4 u judge or condemn is my motto 

Both me and my OH r high earners, his industry is very volatile (sales) i'm in Management Consulting, my OH was made redundant 3 times in 3 years, all he got was JSA, nowt else, sumat like £65, didn't even fill the feckin petrol tank, and that only lasted 6 months, after that he got sweet feck all, onus was on me to support us all as a family.

We had savings and shares which we cashed in to shore up the shortfall, we own a place in Portugal, bought when we were doing well, folks might judge us when looking from outside when OH isn't working, how can they afford that, well simply put WE BLOODY WORKED 4 IT, so deserve it, OH has an income protection insurance policy in place as well so we don't rely on the state, we can't in our postiion, they don't provide for folks who own their own houses or when a partner works!

How we all spend our money when working or not is folks own business and after seeing what shite my OH went through just to get his crappy JSA allowance then I 4 one would never judge anyone on benefits that have a genuine need, nor dictate on how they spend their money, for some animals is all they have, take that away then what's left, life can b hard an miserable enough IMO  right now go off 2 find another bottle of nice Red


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Do you really believe that they would say save £5,£10 a week for as long as it takes to breed responsibly, i really dont think so it would take a very long time to save up enough money, or they are just breeding regardless of what should be done.


There are people who do that I am sure, sadly mostly try and cut corners (no tests etc) to get there. That is not to say all breeders on benefits are the same.

Do not have a family myself (so figures are totally made up :lol but lets say a family on benefits goes on holiday in the UK which costs them £800.It is their business how they saved it, but someone without a family or not taking a holiday could also save £800, indeed more quickly if no kids etc. And again it is their business how they spend that £800.

I think because of the people that do abuse benefits etc, alot of people assume everyone on benefits are the same. That would be unfair, as would it be foolish assuming that just because there are trustworthy people on benefits that everyone is good. There are 2 sides to this arguement, hence me "liking" comments from both sides.

I agree that if people are are already abusing the system or indeed finding it hard to afford to live they should not breed. As then it will lead to cutting corners etc and even more financial problems.

A responsible breeder will think (i would hope) "right can I afford a litter this year?" "No not really, so I will not have one". Where as a BYB/unresponsible breeder would more than likely think "Can I afford a litter this year?" "Not really but if I do not do such and such test and use my own 2 dogs, I will save a packet". Then go and have a litter if not a few that year to boost income.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

fessie said:


> i have a 42 inch tv and a xbox and they have ds each i got my tv and xbox out of littlewoods cat
> *which someone working could pay for out right* my kids come 1st
> saying my kids shouldnt have stuff is rubbish


Well not me dear.

I work 37 hours a week (45 for the last 2) and I am in no position to buy a 42 inch tv or an x box outright!

I've got a tv thats the best part of 12 years old an a 3rd hand me down...if it goes we'll be using the 26 inch one I've got in the bedroom.

As for your kids not having stuff, well no, perhaps not. But to me that's not what JSA or benefits are for. They are to live off. If people on JSA want the finer things in life, make like the rest of us and get a job.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

This has been discussed a few times. THIS thread springs to mind instantly.

It infuriates me when I hear people are breeding animals whilst claiming benefits and making no effort to get a job ... and worse making every excuse they can not to look for a job.

I'd like to think the taxes we pay are being used to support people through a difficult financial patch, making sure they and their families don't go without out the basic necessities. I do not like the thought that my taxes are being used to breed animals which are certainly not a necessity in any shape or form. If you claim to go without to be able to breed while on benefits then clearly, if you can do that long term you are getting too much in benefits.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

fessie said:


> yes its crap boring when kids at school i have filled in more apps for jobs then anything else
> id rather work and have a house like my sister and brother then the crap house iam in now
> cheap housing you can keep it


My OH has lot his job, we can't get JSA.

he's got 3 interviews lined up for thsi week alone.

There are jobs out there, one he's looking at is a part time vacancy stacking shelves at clinton cards. Better than the fat, big diddly squat we're getting at the moment.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> Well not me dear.
> 
> I work 37 hours a week (45 for the last 2) and I am in no position to buy a 42 inch tv or an x box outright!
> 
> ...


Only a valid point if directed at the people who do sit on JSA for years never looking for work. There are many people who can not work due to disabilities or health, plus not to mention the current climate.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Well not me dear.
> 
> I work 37 hours a week (45 for the last 2) and I am in no position to buy a 42 inch tv or an x box outright!
> 
> ...


Ditto - my aunt was sending hers to the tip when ours blew up - so we've got a 15 year old standard analogue TV.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont smoke or drink.


I've seen you drink.

And to be honest, i wish I had the spare income to save as much as these people breeding must have, given the amount everyone is saying it costs on the other thread.

:blink:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Ditto - my aunt was sending hers to the tip when ours blew up - so we've got a 15 year old standard analogue TV.


He he, mine keeps flickering and sending all the pictures pink...its well about to die!!!

Wonder if I can get away with smacking a 42 inch plasma on my wedding list...


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> I agree that if people are are already abusing the system or indeed finding it hard to afford to live they should not breed. As then it will lead to cutting corners etc and even more financial problems.
> 
> A responsible breeder will think (i would hope) "right can I afford a litter this year?" "No not really, so I will not have one". Where as a BYB/unresponsible breeder would more than likely think "Can I afford a litter this year?" "Not really but if I do not do such and such test and use my own 2 dogs, I will save a packet". Then go and have a litter if not a few that year to boost income.


That's the crux of it for me, and anyone on JSA that has been for a prolonged period of time... for me I don't see how/why they will be able to. If its as piddly and hard to get by on as people say it is, then their savings will have been eaten up on essentials surely.

If not, and they're spending it on breeding and then being unable to feed themselves properly that to me is ridiculous and completey beyond comprehension.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> Only a valid point if directed at the people who do sit on JSA for years never looking for work. There are many people who can not work due to disabilities or health, plus not to mention the current climate.


I've already stated several times I'm talking about dole scroungers

But the "current climate" thing doesn't wash with me. there are jobs out there, just people don't want to do them. My OH lost his job on Monday last week, he's got 3 interviews this week and another 2 for next week. Most of them are for dead end jobs but we don't care, its money.

Phrase, beggars cant be choosers springs to mind, only they can because everyone else seems to pay for them.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> I've seen you drink.
> 
> And to be honest, i wish I had the spare income to save as much as these people breeding must have, given the amount everyone is saying it costs on the other thread.
> 
> :blink:


I agree it must be hard, but I am sure they cut corners financially rather in the breeding programme.

I work (indeed have 2 jobs of sorts). But I do not drink, smoke,or drive. So imagine how much I save on not having to pay petrol,road tax, mot,drink,cigarettes, lighters,matches,fixing my car,buying a car or topping up the jukebox in the pub :lol: Even if I was on benefits i would save on all that, money I would use on things of my choice not what others told me to


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> I agree it must be hard, but I am sure they cut corners financially rather in the breeding programme.
> 
> I work (indeed have 2 jobs of sorts). But I do not drink, smoke,or drive. So imagine how much I save on not having to pay petrol,road tax, mot,drink,cigarettes, lighters,matches,fixing my car,buying a car or topping up the jukebox in the pub :lol: Even if I was on benefits i would save on all that, money I would use on things of my choice not what others told me to


That's your decision, and like I've said if saving up and doing it is what you're doing fine, but personally if JSA is giving people enough money to save up then either they've been on it way too long or its paying too much.

We're not talking people with carers or DLA here, those that genuinely need it, we're talking about those that just cannot be bothered to get a job. To me it stinks.

I don't smoke. I've sold my horse now as I can't afford to keep him. I can count on one hand the nights out I've had since moving out, and I wish I was in a position not to have to drive as quite frankly all I see on my fecking bank statements now are petrol and food shops. It also looks like our wedding will have to be put back as well as the savings we were managing to make have all been zapped over the past 4 months for various things that have gone wrong.

I wish I was able to save enough money that people say it costs to breed up in a year. I'd be a very very happy person.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> I've already stated several times I'm talking about dole scroungers
> 
> But the "current climate" thing doesn't wash with me. there are jobs out there, just people don't want to do them. My OH lost his job on Monday last week, he's got 3 interviews this week and another 2 for next week. Most of them are for dead end jobs but we don't care, its money.
> 
> Phrase, beggars cant be choosers springs to mind, only they can because everyone else seems to pay for them.


I am highlighting the fact that not everyone is a dole scrounger. There may be jobs out there where you are, but sadly in places such as here, jobs are hard to get. Lets say in the retail world, name a chain of shops and I bet the closest to me is over 30 miles away, or even 50 in some cases. Just do not pick Iceland or Co-Operative Foods because they are down the road :lol:

But back on topic I think everyone agrees (to a degree) that if on benefits unless you have the savings etc you should not breed dogs or indeed any animal.

But on the other hand there are people on benefits who do breed (and I mean benefits excluding JSA) and can afford it, mostly from saving up etc. If in it for the money then you should not breed. I think if you are on JSA only you should not breed while on it, as that opens JSA up to abuse.Plus you would find it hard to actively seek work during the pregnancy.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> That's your decision, and like I've said if saving up and doing it is what you're doing fine, but personally if JSA is giving people enough money to save up then either they've been on it way too long or its paying too much.
> 
> We're not talking people with carers or DLA here, those that genuinely need it, we're talking about those that just cannot be bothered to get a job. To me it stinks.
> 
> ...


You posted the above while I was typing my last one. I think we agree people on JSA should not breed etc, nor should anyone abusing the system.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

jamie1977 said:


> *I am highlighting the fact that not everyone is a dole scrounger.*
> *
> . Just do not pick Iceland or Co-Operative Foods because they are down the road :*lol:


Who has stated that they are all dole scroungers??

And Why not pick Iceland and cooperative foods.. what exactly is wrong with them?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> I am highlighting the fact that not everyone is a dole scrounger. There may be jobs out there where you are, but sadly in places such as here, jobs are hard to get. Lets say in the retail world, name a chain of shops and I bet the closest to me is over 30 miles away, or even 50 in some cases. Just do not pick Iceland or Co-Operative Foods because they are down the road :lol:
> 
> But back on topic I think everyone agrees (to a degree) that if on benefits unless you have the savings etc you should not breed dogs or indeed any animal.
> 
> But on the other hand there are people on benefits who do breed (and I mean benefits excluding JSA) and can afford it, mostly from saving up etc. If in it for the money then you should not breed. I think if you are on JSA only you should not breed while on it, as that opens JSA up to abuse.Plus you would find it hard to actively seek work during the pregnancy.


I have no intention of "breeding" until we can afford it, which will be a long time off yet. We barely manage to feed ourselves as it is.

Which is what baffles me, seriously baffles me, how people can afford to do it.

And 2 of the interviews my OH is going to are in Manchester, a good 30 miles away.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Who has stated that they are all dole scroungers??
> 
> And Why not pick Iceland and cooperative foods.. what exactly is wrong with them?


Nothing is wrong with them 

But in my example where I said pick a retail chain and I bet there is not one within at least 30 miles of me. But mentioned to exclude Iceland and Co-Op as they are within half a mile of me :lol:


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> I have no intention of "breeding" until we can afford it, which will be a long time off yet. We barely manage to feed ourselves as it is.
> 
> Which is what baffles me, seriously baffles me, how people can afford to do it.
> 
> And 2 of the interviews my OH is going to are in Manchester, a good 30 miles away.


I agree even though I am working, I do not think i could afford to breed (not that I want to). But if I ever did I would save up before making that step, as I am sure anyone here would.

And as hinted by you above, sometimes you do have travel to find the work. And somebody are too lazy to do that, or unable to due to lack of public transport or being able to drive. Using my own location as an example there are buses every 60 mins (which is not bad, but also not ideal for working away), trains are once every hour and a half to 2 hours. Nearest large town to increase job prospects, i.e to commute to daily is about 3 hours by train or bus due to terrain and the train line being a single track (only one train can be on it at a time) until Shrewsbury.

I think this thread as MoM suggested would of been better being a poll only until that poll closed, then got opened for debate/discussion. It has also opened up discussions to benefits as a whole whether they are right or wrong.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> I agree even though I am working, I do not think i could afford to breed (not that I want to). But if I ever did I would save up before making that step, as I am sure anyone here would.
> 
> And as hinted by you above, sometimes you do have travel to find the work. And somebody are too lazy to do that, or unable to due to lack of public transport or being able to drive. Using my own location as an example there are buses every 60 mins (which is not bad, but also not ideal for working away), trains are once every hour and a half to 2 hours. Nearest large town to increase job prospects, i.e to commute to daily is about 3 hours by train or bus due to terrain and the train line being a single track (only one train can be on it at a time) until Shrewsbury.
> 
> I think this thread as MoM suggested would of been better being a poll only until that poll closed, then got opened for debate/discussion. It has also opened up discussions to benefits as a whole whether they are right or wrong.


My OH doesn't drive, he will be relying on trains. Did do for the entire time he was in his last job.

And I take it above means Shrewsbury is your nearest large town then? My Aunties live there.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> My OH doesn't drive, he will be relying on trains. Did do for the entire time he was in his last job.
> 
> And I take it above means Shrewsbury is your nearest large town then? My Aunties live there.


Yes one of the closest dependant on which direction you travel. My location is not ideal for travelling by public transport. One example is Bangor. I could get there by bus but it would take 3 hours by bus (and not fit in with normal working hours), would take aver 6 hours by train. Yet it is less than a hour by car. If I was looking for work I would be limited to how far I could travel by being a non driver. Though could easily travel to the nearest Tesco, Wilkinsons and Aldi for work because they are all in the easiest place to get to by train. But if I lived 9 miles to the east I would not be able to do even that due to the loss of having a train station. Plus the limitation on buses to the train station here to fit in with the working day.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

anyway going off topic here talking about my location, .............though it is nice for anyone wanting a UK Holiday. We are happy to accept Benefit Claimants or Working People :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> I've seen you drink.
> 
> And to be honest, i wish I had the spare income to save as much as these people breeding must have, given the amount everyone is saying it costs on the other thread.
> 
> :blink:


As a special occasion. I had a drink in September when you and Grace came then I didnt drink again until my birthday when I went to my grandparents had 2 glass's of wine and christmas 1 glass of wine.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

jamie1977 said:


> Which is a good point if the person is on JSA, as they are not carrying out duties expected of them. But this thread has "benefits" in it's title. If you titled it by replacing "benefits" with "JSA" I think comments (on the whole)would be a lil different.


If you check one of my other posts it says with hindsight I should of put JSA instead


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

stigDarley said:


> If you check one of my other posts it says with hindsight I should of put JSA instead


I missed that bit so apologies.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I fail to understand how all this is relevant to the question.. 

Is it really necessary to be proving who said what exactly regarding benefits.. So.. If you haven't got anything to say on the original subject then, It really isn't necessary to post.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I can't see anyone pointing a finger at anyone, just having a general discussion?
> 
> Those people on job seekers, IMHO shouldn't be considering breeding. Job seekers is there to support you short term whilst you get a job and back on your feet...that is unless your parter earns too much money .
> 
> Carers allowance isn't IMHO a benefit, that's a job in itself, for those that do it properly, not those that simply claim and then don't. Same with disability allowances.


you dont have to earn a lot for your partner to be refused job seekers. My daughter's bf was turned down because my daughter had £30 a week college grant and worked one day a week in a shop - his parents had to support him as no way could she contribute to his keep.



Souris said:


> I'm not going to make a comment on the question, but I'd like to state this fact that my other half was told to tell people when he worked briefly in the benefits department. You are not allowed to go out and do volunteering work (even if it will help you get into a job) whilst on JSA as the money you're being paid is to keep you going whilst you search for a job- and you have to be ready at any given moment at a drop of a hat to go to work if it's offered to you.
> 
> How is raising a litter any different to volunteering really? You can hardly search for a job when you've got your eyes on pups 24 7, and even if you do search then you can hardly go to interviews/start whilst you have a litter at home.
> 
> Surely then having a litter is breaking the terms and conditions of JSA? Sure, breeding is a 'hobby', but most hobbies don't include sitting out for a few weeks at a time dedicating your time to the pups. You're not supposed to go on holiday either (and certainly in his department if you were found out to have gone on holiday the JSA would have ceased). Edit: That and you would have been charged for fraud, which needless to say, they don't take lightly these days!


I understood that volunteering was encouraged as it makes you more employable if you can prove you are keen to work and reliable.


jamie1977 said:


> May be off topic, but what are peoples thoughts on people that do full time jobs for a minimum wage that are over 25 (think that's the minimum age) that claim working tax credits. Is it right that they spend that upto £55 a week to breed?


People on massive wages get tax credit if they have children, it is ridiculous. But it is up to them what they spend it on.



Horse and Hound said:


> Well not me dear.
> 
> I work 37 hours a week (45 for the last 2) and I am in no position to buy a 42 inch tv or an x box outright!
> 
> ...


I find that kids of parents on benefits have far more new stuff because it is so easy to go into debt instead of saving up for second hand like hard workers do.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Blitz said:


> you dont have to earn a lot for your partner to be refused job seekers. My daughter's bf was turned down because my daughter had £30 a week college grant and worked one day a week in a shop - his parents had to support him as no way could she contribute to his keep.
> 
> I understood that volunteering was encouraged as it makes you more employable if you can prove you are keen to work and reliable.
> 
> ...


Like I have just said.. This is nothing to do with the original post..


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Blitz said:


> you dont have to earn a lot for your partner to be refused job seekers. My daughter's bf was turned down because my daughter had £30 a week college grant and worked one day a week in a shop - his parents had to support him as no way could she contribute to his keep..


That is disgusting! I can kind of get my head round it in my position but a college grant??!!



Blitz said:


> I find that kids of parents on benefits have far more new stuff because it is so easy to go into debt instead of saving up for second hand like hard workers do.


I have a credit card, there's £500 on it, most of which has been stuff for the dogs I've had to whack on when short. Its being paid off though. My limit is a lot higher, so i could whack a TV on it if I could, I just refuse to.

Cant afford it, don't have it is my motto. the only debt I have is my mortgage.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Maybe the post has died a death!  

Interesting debate and always good to hear both sides and views. 

However it hasn't changed my view. For me personally I think definalty on certain benifits probaly shouldn't breed. 

To me as a tax payer I think that I have the right to have opions on benfits when me working is helping funding them. To a certain extent I do think that. Tax payers should be allowed to question benefits and what they are being used on. Especialy considering that me working helps fund it. 

In the same breath having these views i'm also currently helping a local lad get off JSA. I've spent an afternoon going through his CV and getting it sorted it will take me another 4-6 hours to re type the whole thing and tweak it properly. I'm then making the commintment to help him aply for jobs. As he's dsyleix very shy and is being let down by the system. 

so I am definatly doing as I'm thinking. 

But thanks for the points raised by all. Its nice to hear diferent views and points. But I dn't think it's changed mine. 

But also to clarify I wouldn't dream of questioning people on careers and DLA. I think people on careers aren't paid enough it really is a job!!! And on disability well od it's not your fault. These are long term ones. 

But I do think on JSA it's a no no......


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> But also to clarify I wouldn't dream of questioning people on careers and DLA. I think people on careers aren't paid enough it really is a job!!! And on disability well od it's not your fault. These are long term ones.


Providing they aint cheating the system and are actually caring for the person they get the allowance for, or are truly disabled.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Also we as tax payers are not paying for many people on JSA. Their payments are taken from the N.I they have paid in previous jobs. Ask the amount of young people turned away from JSA due to never having paid N.I. This is of course not a reflection of everyone on JSA.

But agree think this thread has run it's course and is now becoming a discussion on benefit claiming as a whole which is a whole different topic to the reason behind the OP.


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## fessie (Mar 30, 2009)

for a start i have been going for cleaning jobs which i dont mind doing and i dont 
buy new stuff iam in debt with the cat and the ds are second hand plus 
there dad has just got a job so his helping out with cloths ect so if i work 
we should be able to bring up the kids comfy even though we dont live together
us spliting up could have been the best thing fingers crossed a job comes up


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> But I do think on JSA it's a no no......


I've been mulling this over and over in my head - and went off to do some research.

The JSA is £65 a week if you are over 25 - my utility bills and council tax come to more than that. Yes - everyone can be frugal and cut corners in their day to day lives but there's always a plateau point - and which ever way you look at it - for the majority of people that HAS to be over £65 a week - so how they do it (if they do) - I don't know.

This is not me questioning how people spend their money - with even basic living costs today - £65 is a pittance (unless of course there are many things that go on top of that I am unaware of and that is money in your hand


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I've been mulling this over and over in my head - and went off to do some research.
> 
> The JSA is £65 a week if you are over 25 - my utility bills and council tax come to more than that. Yes - everyone can be frugal and cut corners in their day to day lives but there's always a plateau point - and which ever way you look at it - for the majority of people that HAS to be over £65 a week - so how they do it (if they do) - I don't know.
> 
> This is not me questioning how people spend their money - with even basic living costs today - £65 is a pittance (unless of course there are many things that go on top of that I am unaware of and that is money in your hand


If on JSA you get your council tax, housing benefit (dependant on your accommodation) paid. You get much cheaper Utilities as well. So that £65 is all yours to spend as you want/need (need being you still have to pay that reduced water etc.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I've been mulling this over and over in my head - and went off to do some research.
> 
> The JSA is £65 a week if you are over 25 - my utility bills and council tax come to more than that. Yes - everyone can be frugal and cut corners in their day to day lives but there's always a plateau point - and which ever way you look at it - for the majority of people that HAS to be over £65 a week - so how they do it (if they do) - I don't know.
> 
> This is not me questioning how people spend their money - with even basic living costs today - £65 is a pittance (unless of course there are many things that go on top of that I am unaware of and that is money in your hand


From what I ahev been told by people claiming JSA ... you get your council tax and rent on top......


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Why would they want to breed anyway?


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

hawksport said:


> I know breeders that can tell you where every single puppy they ever bred is


To be honest unless the people your talking are fairly new to breeding & have had few small litters, I with respect, don't believe that


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I would find it very amusing and annoying if someone told me they could breed whilst on benefits, i know nothing about how much breeding a bitch costs exactly only that it isnt cheap, i also know nothing about how much the average person on benefits get.


Really if you know so little, do you really feel your fairly qualified & informed enough to be able to form an unbias opinion?


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

If a persons main income is the dole , or social security , or whatever it is its called these days , then no , I dont think they should be breeding dogs

For a start , people claiming are supposed to be looking for work , far too many people on the dole arent bothering , they see it as their right to have that money , when really its just there to tide them over until they find a job

Its not a great deal of money either is it , so how the hell can they afford day to day expenses as well as all the expensive extras that breeding occurs , and if they can afford it then imo the amounts they are getting should be looked into 

in my mind its just taking the piss out of the system , and is totally unfair to the people who are slogging their guts out working and paying taxes


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly.
> 
> As long as they are careful with their money, have insurance and back up money and are willing to risk a loss of money then there is no problem.


Willing to risk a loss of money? This is what bothers me a bit. Willing to risk a loss of money that has been given to you on the behalf of tax payers for you to support your family, but you are instead using to fund a very expensive hobby?

Plus you never answered my questions about the future of any puppies you produce that may have to come back to you? What happens if they come back uninsured with a severe medical condition? Hip Dysplasia could cost between £4000 and £7000 to treat for the life of the dog. I know someone who has spent in excess of £3k in a single year for her dog's heart condition medications (just meds, on their own, that doesn't include multiple visits to cardiologist for echo/holter, water therapy etc etc) which isn't covered by insurance companies. Insurance is expensive for dogs, usually around £10/month per dog. Right now you have 4 dogs with an aim to keep 1 or 2 from Alaska's potential litter.

These are all "what if" questions, but you seriously need to consider the "what if"'s if you plan to be a breeder. It doesn't all work out smoothly and it is an incredibly stressful thing to take on at the best of times.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Actually, my OH is on high level DLA and you wouldnt know it to look at him....


Is that relevant?

Regardless he should not be well enough to look after and raise a litter of puppies.

As I remember you have to be almost unable to walk any distance/and/or need assistance with care day and night to be eligible for high level DLA.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

casandra said:


> Willing to risk a loss of money? This is what bothers me a bit. Willing to risk a loss of money that has been given to you on the behalf of tax payers for you to support your family, but you are instead using to fund a very expensive hobby?


What people spend benefits that they are ENTITLED to, has nothing to do with anyone but themselves. Things like Attendance Allowance is paid directly to carer, it is THEIR money to do with whatever they like 

As I have said I spent mine on having a couple of nights out, wine and clothes  Thank you taxpayers ... but remember how much I was saving you really :smile:


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Just a reminder (remember I am neutral on this as there are benefit cheats etc but there are also people who deserve JSA).

Not everyone on JSA gets money funded by us taxpayers, some peoples JSA is paid out of their own N.I payments from previous jobs.
You can work upto 16 hours a week and still get JSA.
You can have savings upto £6000 and still get JSA.

So, some people on JSA may have savings and/or a part time job which helps fund breeding. Although I personally do think it would be hard to do so, but of course not impossible. But in the end it's *their* wages from *their* 16hrs a week, *their *savings of upto £6000 and *their* N.I funding *their* JSA. So let them spend it as *they* wish.

They may even have a OH who works full time to help top up their own income from that part time job and/or savings of upto £6000. Though to be fair if this was the case, I think due to the way JSA is done, if you had an OH who worked, you would not get JSA. They would decide your OH could support you. Will let you decide if that is unfair or not 

However if they do not fit into the above (have savings/small income,are claiming JSA and breeding and making no attempt to find work, then I believe they are abusing the system. And as I have mentioned to a few people in PM discussions and via visitor messages, the system is open to abuse when it comes to JSA.

Also with the first example of someone who has savings/works upto 16hrs a week but is getting JSA. If you are doing that but not actively seeking work then that is wrong also.

Which has just made me think, if I was on JSA now as a single person and decided to breed. I could happily seek work online between carrying out duties relating to breeding. But the closer it gets to the bitch giving birth, although I could technically still seek work online and/or via newspapers etc. I would find it hard to attend job interviews and/or to sign on. Because I would be doing it alone and to carry out those attendances I would have to leave the bitch alone.

hmmm this post has been like a little debate with myself :lol:


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

There are two types of JSA Jamie

Contribution based JSA and Income Based JSA.

Those that have been working and paid enough NI contributions can get contribution based JSA up to 182 days.

When that runs out they then will have to apply for income based JSA.

Contribution based JSA does not take into account your savings to get it but income based does.

Don't forget that NI payments you make isn't just for benefits but for hospitals, dentists opticians etc...


and the name says it all really 'JOB SEEKING ALLOWANCE"

not money for breeding dogs allowance


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

And all this hasn't ever mentioned the people who have never worked and intend to carry on that way, who get a Staffy or two with the intention of pumping out litters to supplement their JSA. I've met a couple of these lads, and another who couldn't have been older than 14 who claimed he was a dog breeder and tried to sell a saluki lurcher to someone he just met in the park (me). I'd already seen the little git try to kick it.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> And all this hasn't ever mentioned the people who have never worked and intend to carry on that way, who get a Staffy or two with the intention of pumping out litters to supplement their JSA. I've met a couple of these lads, and another who couldn't have been older than 14 who claimed he was a dog breeder and tried to sell a saluki lurcher to someone he just met in the park (me). I'd already seen the little git try to kick it.


Happens everywhere


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> There are two types of JSA Jamie
> 
> Contribution based JSA and Income Based JSA.
> 
> ...


As you said above, translates into what I said in my last post, just not so clearly :lol:

You can still actively seek work and breed once a year (as i said in my last post it would become hard if single around the time of birth especially). Though to be on JSA for a whole year, does not hit me with much effort being put in to source work. Though there is of course a few people who do struggle to find work and are on JSA for a long long time. But if they are actively seeking work and saving money from their JSA then it's upto them how they use it. They get about £65 a week, it is up to them how much they use on food/bills (bills though,will will be reduced or paid for them due to them being on JSA).

The problem is with the system, which is why I have said a few times here, even more so in discussions one to one. It is extremely easy to stay on JSA for a long time to fund breeding or indeed anything else you wish. You go and see the advisor once a fortnight, he/she asks to see the record of how you have been looking for work (you have to record 3 attempts at job finding a week). But they do not check up on these attempts. I was always honest but when I was on JSA, the advisor would have a 5 sec scan of my record, sign it off, then sign off my payment and that was me done. No recording my attepmts for their own use, no checking up on me etc. So I could of easily just written anything down on that record sheet, i.e looked in local paper, looked on monster, looked on fish4jobs etc. Then stayed on JSA for as long as needed to fund a breeding programme without being checked on.

This looseness in how JSA is awarded is far too easy to abuse. I also think JSA should be a time limited payment. You only get it for the first 6-12 months, then you get placed somewhere regardless of past experience/skills.

Anyway slightly off topic all that (though does tie in with JSA funded breeding in a way).

BTW the above is a general comment not one directed solely to you Cockerpoo Lover :lol:. Sure you know how lax the system is inviting the same faces signing on fortnightly.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Is that relevant?
> 
> Regardless he should not be well enough to look after and raise a litter of puppies.
> 
> As I remember you have to be almost unable to walk any distance/and/or need assistance with care day and night to be eligible for high level DLA.


What would you know about it?? I'm not going to explain why my OH is on higher level DLA, nowt to do with anyone else. He doestn raise and look after a litter on his own anyhow, I am there too! And thats all I am saying on this thread now.

Like I said before, everyones circumstances are different and folk shouldnt comment about things like this, it gets personal!!!


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

This is also my last post here, as it is now turning into a justification of how benefits are awarded etc and diverting away from the OP.

Will just say, the system does get abused, but that does not make everyone claiming, an abuser of the system. Everyone is different, somebody are rightly entitled to them.

I look forward to the thread on "How long should benefits be awarded for and who should get them" :lol:


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Ok you have just bred a litter whilst on JSA. Then you get sent on a jobcentre funded course lasting 13 weeks ( some can last 26 weeks) where you have to attend MON- FRI for 30 hrs per week normally 6 hours per day excluding breaks.

Who looks after your litter then?

Then you get sent on a work placement which means different hours or travelling. Or you get an interview..

Your successful in your interview and are expected to start with immediate effect.

When in receipt of JSA you are to be available to attend a job or placement or course with immediate effect.

I don't think they would be happy with the excuse that you can't because you have a litter of puppies to look after.


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## jamie1977 (Jan 17, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Ok you have just bred a litter whilst on JSA. Then you get sent on a jobcentre funded course lasting 13 weeks ( some can last 26 weeks) where you have to attend MON- FRI for 30 hrs per week normally 6 hours per day excluding breaks.
> 
> Who looks after your litter then?
> 
> ...


I said that in my debate with myself 
Anyway going now as per my last post


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

jamie1977 said:


> This is also my last post here, as it is now turning into a justification of how benefits are awarded etc and diverting away from the OP.
> 
> Will just say, the same does get abused, but that does not make everyone claiming, an abuser of the system. Everyone is different, somebody are rightly entitled to them.
> 
> I look forward to the thread on "How long should benefits be awarded for and who should get them" :lol:


Yes the thread was about breeding on benefits and your right not talking about how they are awarded.

However all my posts have been in relation to JSA and breeding with some insight into the system.

A lot of people are entitled and I have met some fab people in my time who 
were just unlucky in their job search or what life had thrown at them.

I didn't work for the jobcentre by the way but a variety of charities working in partnership with them.

Mind you in all my time working with the unemployed ( 2001-2007) I have never met any who breed dogs


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## firsttime (Mar 20, 2011)

Here in the states, my job is a seasonal one. I still have time for my pets and hobbies, My OH has a 10 month job. They do not get benefits, but I do. Does it matter as long as the dogs or any other animal is taken care of?


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

IMO People on JSA should be spending their time looking for a job not breeding dogs.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

firsttime said:


> Here in the states, my job is a seasonal one. I still have time for my pets and hobbies, My OH has a 10 month job. They do not get benefits, but I do. Does it matter as long as the dogs or any other animal is taken care of?


I think it matters to the people who work long hours, earn a wage, and pay their taxes that fund the benefit system.

People are on benefits for a variety of reasons, and it is of course wrong to judge without knowing the full facts. But on the whole, i personally dont think people who are not earning the money themselves (and capable of working), should be allowed to breed. For those who will never work again, then it would be dependant on what is wrong with them, and whether or not they are physically and mentally able to deal with a breeding situation.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Sorry not read all the replies, but in answer to original question, we have always been in work, and have bred a few litters, I personally never made any money from it, in fact on our 2nd litter I was completely out of pocket when everything got added up, to be honest I KNOW had we been on benefits at that time I just could NOT afford to have bred those litters, I had all the health tests done, I campaigned my dogs, I used outside stud dogs etc, the stud alone was a 1,000, had I been solely on benefits I would probably not been able to get that money together, my girl needed a c section in the middle of the night, had I been on benefits I probably wouldnt have been able to save the money to cover this,I know this because we went through a stage of our business being extremely quiet, and I was between jobs, we were struggling financially.also knowing what family members receive in benefits, and the fact that they dont smoke/drink/have expensive hobbies, just making it through each month because they dont do cash in hand jobs. makes me think that financially I wouldnt be able to breed in the way I want, BUT I do think there are a lot of people that have a male and female, dont do all required health tests, have mates that are willing to give a few bob for a pup, that have litters to suppliment their income, and I personally do not agree this should be happening, obviously this is my opinion and I am entitled to this.

Mo


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> And here we have someone, a prime example of cheating the system.
> 
> Congratulations...absolute joke.


Um, I think you misunderstood what she means hun. If she is being paid as a hard working carer then she can spend that money any way she likes right?

If I were a carer I would probably spend the money having fun as well! It's a hard job


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Roobster2010 said:


> Really if you know so little, do you really feel your fairly qualified & informed enough to be able to form an unbias opinion?


You are right in as much as you do have to 'walk in another mans shoes' to understand their situation - but - knowing the expenses associated with breeding - someone explain to me then, how a person can live on £65 a week and save enough money to do all the health tests, have a contingency fund for a C-section and sufficient funds to raise the litter properly, register them. worm them etc not to mention any vets fees if the pups themselves get sick.

I brought home KC from a show when my last litter were 7 weeks old - it happened - I can't blame anyone else for it - and I don't factor the costs I had to meet to deal with it and treat all my dogs - which came to a cool £450 in vets fees - without which, some of those puppies may well have ended up seriously ill or dead.

The fact is, you don't have to go to a show, to pick up contagious diseases - it can happen in the park, on the street, even in the vets - or any other place where dogs have been - how would someone on £65 JSA be able to cope with these eventualities - what I spent just treating my litter is around 8 weeks JSA.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Um, I think you misunderstood what she means hun. If she is being paid as a hard working carer then she can spend that money any way she likes right?
> 
> If I were a carer I would probably spend the money having fun as well! It's a hard job


Ahhhhhh right, gotcha. THought she meant she was just out on the piss instead. Will delete my post...

In that case fair play...if she was out caring.

I've read and heard plenty of other people claim to be and then not bother...one person I know is claiming claimers allowance for caring for a mother that lives the best part of 30 miles away, who she sees once a week.

Is that right?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Ahhhhhh right, gotcha. THought she meant she was just out on the piss instead. Will delete my post...
> 
> In that case fair play...if she was out caring.
> 
> ...


Well considering that to qualify for someone to care for you (and them being paid carers allowance) you have to be quite seriously disabled and need round the clock care ... I would think not.

I know when I was assessed I was told that if I can get to the kitchen unaided I wouldn't qualify.
If I could put a microwave meal in the microwave I wouldn't qualify
If I could lift my cutlery to my mouth I wouldn't qualify
If I could prepare food to cook I wouldn't qualify (this meant sitting at a table and peeling carrot/potatoes, it didn't take into account actually cooking them).

There we so many more stipulations I can't remember half of them, and none of them took into account any pain or discomfort in doing those tasks. People who are disabled who have good and bad days where they can do nothing one day, but normal every day stuff the next would probably not qualify. It's more for people who are paralysed from the neck down, or suffering serious brain damage. Or children that need constant care.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> What would you know about it?? I'm not going to explain why my OH is on higher level DLA, nowt to do with anyone else. He doestn raise and look after a litter on his own anyhow, I am there too! And thats all I am saying on this thread now.
> 
> Like I said before, everyones circumstances are different and folk shouldnt comment about things like this, it gets personal!!!


I know that to be entitled to a high level of disability living allowance you need to be very incapacitated. I know because my mum was in receipt
of it before she died. She was on oxygen several hours of day when she began, needed help with daily living activities and could not walk more than a few feet. There is NO way she could have been involved with dog breeding and as her carer, neither could I! Pups running around an needing lot's of care would have been too much 

I am sure some people in receipt of this can help in a very small way to raise a litter, but if they are actively breeding themselves, I'd question whether they should be on the high level to be honest.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I obviously dont want to get into a dispute over certain beneifts, but I do get quite annoyed, when I hear of people living it up on benefits, I know many girls around here have children, are not married, but do have live in boyfriends, who BOTH claim, the women cant be bothered even getting dressed some days, complain they cant afford this and that, yet I know they smoke, are out at the pub most weekends, or having drinks at home during the week, wear nice clothes, and all paid for by benefits, throw in a few litters from their pet they allow to roam, and get pregnant, and sell the pups off in the local pub add the fact they dont have the responsibility of paying rent etc, and its not a bad living. where as my sister who lived on her own, but had her own house that she had to pay mortgage on, had throat cancer, had a trac put in, had numerous other health issues, spent MONTHS trying to get some form of benefit to help her,was up to her eyes in debt and died before anything was sorted, sorry for the rant.

Mo


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> People who are disabled who have good and bad days where they can do nothing one day, but normal every day stuff the next would probably not qualify. It's more for people who are paralysed from the neck down, or suffering serious brain damage. Or children that need constant care.


Well I can see in itself the system is flawed but if the above is the case said person is deffo cheating then...considering her mum actually drives.

Moral dilemma now.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I know that to be entitled to a high level of disability living allowance you need to be very incapacitated. I know because my mum was in receipt
> of it before she died. She was on oxygen several hours of day when she began, needed help with daily living activities and could not walk more than a few feet. There is NO way she could have been involved with dog breeding and as her carer, neither could I! Pups running around an needing lot's of care would have been too much
> 
> I am sure some people in receipt of this can help in a very small way to raise a litter, but if they are actively breeding themselves, I'd question whether they should be on the high level to be honest.


You dont have to be on Palliative care to get higher rate DLA. My father was on it also, before he died of a brain tumour, totally incapacitated he was too, like your mum, its sad.

Like I keep saying, you dont know me or my OH so dont make generalisations, you arent the only one though, no-one should! And that really is bowing out on this thread, its getting like a witch-hunt


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Um, I think you misunderstood what she means hun. If she is being paid as a hard working carer then she can spend that money any way she likes right?
> 
> If I were a carer I would probably spend the money having fun as well! It's a hard job


I'd guess H & H was perhaps referring to me Aurelia?

If so I was hardly "cheating the system" I looked after my mum almost 24/7 washed, her, dressed, her, emptied her commode, sat up with her during the night when she couldn't breathe etc etc ....

The carers allowance I was given, did not match my loss in earnings haven given up nursinng work to care for mum when she moved in with us ... believe it or not H & H 

Neither did it match what it would have cost the taxpayers if she had gone into a nursing home ... So "congratulations ... absolute joke" ... I think not.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I know that to be entitled to a high level of disability living allowance you need to be very incapacitated. I know because my mum was in receipt
> of it before she died. She was on oxygen several hours of day when she began, needed help with daily living activities and could not walk more than a few feet. There is NO way she could have been involved with dog breeding and as her carer, neither could I! Pups running around an needing lot's of care would have been too much
> 
> I am sure some people in receipt of this can help in a very small way to raise a litter, but if they are actively breeding themselves, I'd question whether they should be on the high level to be honest.


Very true. Though I do think it varies I have yet to meet someone who is on high rate that could raise a litter as my brother is on it and he couldnt because he doesnt understand the basic care needs of an animal.

Me nor my mother get carers because both my mother and I see's it as a "given" to have family caring for Sam. So she never claimed.

My mother in law is on high rate but she has M/S and cant walk more than a few steps without falling over. She needs nappies and is wheelchair bound for most journeys. She "could" raise a litter as sitting there keeping an eye on them would be an easy task for her BUT if she needed to get to the vet she would not be able to do so unles my dad was there with a car. She could not hop on the bus as she cant walk far at all.

My grandma gets medium after she had a heart problem and had to be in hospital for 3 months and have a major op. She is basicly back to normal now however she is very frail. I do think it depends on the condition. But I do get what you are saying.

My mother has been ill for years and its got worse over the past few months. She luckly can get around (via driving) however we took her into town to a shop, she parked close by but she had to hold onto me and have a walking stick to get to the shop. 6 months ago she could walk around but was very limited...now? She can barely walk. Apparently by this time next year she will be in a wheel chair.

She has to have someone with her because she could fall, bleed to death and self harm. Sadly me and my 10 year old brother have been the ones pointed this task.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> You dont have to be on Palliative care to get higher rate DLA. My father was on it also, before he died of a brain tumour, totally incapacitated he was too, like your mum, its sad.
> 
> Like I keep saying, you dont know me or my OH so dont make generalisations, you arent the only one though, no-one should! And that really is bowing out on this thread, its getting like a witch-hunt


It's not a generalisation to say those on higher level disability should not be in a position to breed, it's fact.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Hun it was a misunderstanding  I think the poster thought you meant you were claiming carers allowance for someone else who didn't get it, then you peed it up the wall.

In discussions like this it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I'd guess H & H was perhaps referring to me Aurelia?
> 
> If so I was hardly "cheating the system" I looked after my mum almost 24/7 washed, her, dressed, her, emptied her commode, sat up with her during the night when she couldn't breathe etc etc ....
> 
> ...


Like I've said, I deleted the post. I was under the impression you were out on the pi** instead of caring, I happily stand congratulated and actually believe it or not, applaud you.

As for costing tax payers money though in nursing homes, don't get me started on that. My granddad is about to be put into a home. He has to sell his home etc before and use that up before they will give him any help. this is a man that has worked all his life, paid taxes, never claimed a benefit and in his old age we're getting no help at all.

So it only costs the tax payers anything ONCE they've had to sell the estate and use up their allowance, giving them enough left to organise a funeral with.

Absolute joke that those that need the help can't get it, and those that don't seem to be able to claim shed loads willy nilly.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Not sure if this has already been posted, but it should help explain things a bit better:

Disability Living Allowance - eligibility : Directgov - Disabled people


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I think the OP did explain further down this thread that she was talking about JSA and not other benefits when she started this thread.

So I think she wanted to know that able bodied people who are in receipt of JSA should they use their benefit money to breed dogs???

Then again I could be wrong


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> My mother in law is on high rate but she has M/S and cant walk more than a few steps without falling over. She needs nappies and is wheelchair bound for most journeys. She "could" raise a litter as sitting there keeping an eye on them would be an easy task for her BUT if she needed to get to the vet she would not be able to do so unles my dad was there with a car. She could not hop on the bus as she cant walk far at all.


We will have to differ on this one, I really don't believe anyone in this position should be even contemplating raising a litter. They may be able to assist in small ways, but realistically that is it.

How would she manage to get down on the floor and assist bitch in labour? Or help pups latch on, this can take a lot of time? Clean up puppy pads, socialise puppies outside etc etc.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> We will have to differ on this one, I really don't believe anyone in this position should be even contemplating raising a litter. They may be able to assist in small ways, but realistically that is it.
> 
> How would she manage to get down on the floor and assist bitch in labour? Or help pups latch on, this can take a lot of time? Clean up puppy pads, socialise puppies outside etc etc.


For me the question is not "Should" someone with that level of disability be able to raise a litter, its "can" they.

I'd perhaps think that given the qualifying criteria for DLA...then no? 

If you hav good days and bad days, what if you're having a bad day when the bitch goes into whelp? or you pass out?

I'd be too frightened to even think about it.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> If you hav good days and bad days, what if you're having a bad day when the bitch goes into whelp? or you pass out?
> 
> I'd be too frightened to even think about it.


Obviously my health problems don't fit into the severity described - but I've had intervals of being really 'good' and really 'bad' (although I've never stopped working save for a single day in the last 5 years other than when I've been for tests).

I did a lot of soul searching about having my last litter - I was, then I wasn't - you get the picture

In the end I did - and interestingly - although completely exhausted by the end of it - I didn't have a 'bad' day in the whole 9 weeks to the time all buy my own baby left.

Within reason - having a focus / work can, in my own experience, overcome many elements of a bad day (within reason of course - and I appreciate that doesn't apply to everyone) - but for me - it was actually a major turning point - by the time I saw the specialist and had my tests - I had pretty much (or so I thought) sussed what the problem was - and got back on even keel.

Unfortunately, I am now back where I was nearly 2 years ago - and clearly didn't 'suss' it as cleverly as we thought :

Hey ho


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Its immaterial whats said here anyway 
people on the dole are going to breed dogs whether the hard working tax payers like it or not ... so whats the point 

sorry but im getting pissed off watching me and my OH work ourselves into the ground just to stay above water lately , while others cant be bothered getting a job yet have the LUXURY of breeding dogs


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2011)

My views on this are! DEPENDS on what benifit you are on! Forgive me but I am NOT uptodate on the current names for the various benifits to to put it in a nutshell if you are on one of the benifits to which you are entitled that are NOT means tested then YES! why not!
On the otherhand if you are on the type of benifits that they pay you purely because you are to idle to go to work they NO - these benifits should ONLY be enough to pay for the basic needs.
Then I guess we have another bracket whereby you are on benifits because you simply cannot find a job - this I dunno! but certainly not something I would consider.


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## Jojo81 (Dec 7, 2012)

Nothing wrong with most people on disability and all the folk on jsa are just obviously Lazy and need a rocket up their backside! As for breeding there's already too many dogs need re-homing it's just another way of easy money!! (Get a job)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Jojo81 said:


> Nothing wrong with most people on disability and all the folk on jsa are just obviously Lazy and need a rocket up their backside! As for breeding there's already too many dogs need re-homing it's just another way of easy money!! (Get a job)


Interesting first post. I'm regretting the lack of popcorn in the cupboard!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Interesting first post. I'm regretting the lack of popcorn in the cupboard!


Exactly....it's a shame that some people have such boring lives that they rely on trying to get a reaction from people on an animal lovers' forum for entertainment


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> For me the question is not "Should" someone with that level of disability be able to raise a litter, its "can" they.
> 
> I'd perhaps think that given the qualifying criteria for DLA...then no?
> 
> ...


Whilst not on benefits, I have had more than a few battles with my health over the last couple of years.

This and reading my last post when this was resurrected sent shivers down my spine as I realised that less than 4 later I was in hospital very seriously ill with acute pancreatitis - with a subsequent (and much more severe attack) just over a year later - and still don't have a cause although stress definitely doesn't help


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Just because you suddenly find yourself out of work for whatever reason and have to claim benefits doesn't mean you don't have savings. The benefits are then means tested and you get a little less depending on what amount of savings you have. It also depends on what you've paid into the 'system' during your working life as to what rate of benefit you receive - as it should because we pay for the right to have help if times get tough. You're allowed a certain amount of savings before benefit rate is affected and even out of work actors can claim job seekers allowance in between work, I know because I saw a guy from the telly once when I hit hard times at the job centre. You pay contributions for your own benefit when working and not just for any old Tom, Dick and Harry to skive off work. If you never have to claim then consider yourself lucky because being made redundant is quite a common occurrence in today's climes. 

I think people imagine benefits are simply paid to those who don't want to work but that's not always the case and because of this stigma some people who've worked hard all their lives are ashamed to claim what's rightfully theirs. So if a man has worked all his life, supported a stay at home wife who breeds her dogs why should that be stripped from her if he loses his job and has to have a helping hand from the State?

You have to declare savings over a certain amount but you're allowed a couple of grand or so in the bank before it affects what amount of benefit you actually get and even then you still get some allowance. Same as child benefit allowance, paid to people that really don't need it at all and even if they move abroad if the child was born here - at least it was when my friend moved back to Germany some years ago which I thought was weird. 

Not everyone one claiming benefits are lazy louts without a pot to pee in!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts on this thread so this query may have been addressed already, but I don't understand why being on benefits has any effect on breeding?

If you have enough savings in case something goes wrong, you declare any profit (if there is any) and you can look after pups properly if you have a limiting disability why does it matter if you are on benefits?

Maybe the thread should be "If you don't have a lot of money coming in to live on is it ok to breed your pet bitch to supplement your income?"


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I haven't read all the posts on this thread so this query may have been addressed already, but I don't understand why being on benefits has any effect on breeding?
> 
> If you have enough savings in case something goes wrong, you declare any profit (if there is any) and you can look after pups properly if you have a limiting disability why does it matter if you are on benefits?
> 
> Maybe the thread should be "If you don't have a lot of money coming in to live on is it ok to breed your pet bitch to supplement your income?"


The original thread is over two years old, and was revived with someone making their first post on the forum


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Not everyone one claiming benefits are lazy louts without a pot to pee in!


I doubt anyone is saying they are - there will always be genuine cases,

But it is a fact that there are many deserving people who don't get their benefits entitlement even when they do apply because they don't "use the right words" - don't know which routes to go to force the system - whilst there are others out there in far better situations because they know how to "screw the system" and keep on screwing it 

It is because of these people that truly deserving people are now less likely than ever to get the help they should be entitled to 

I know of more than a few people who've found themselves out of work through redundancy / ill health unable to get a penny's help.

When I was pregnant in a violent relationship, I found myself unintentionally homeless - if you had seen what I was offered - the property itself was horrific in a violent drug torn area where bars on the windows and boarded up properties were the norm (I was working)

After leaving my daughters father for the last time when she was three weeks old, I had to move nearly 200 miles away back to my family - I applied for a housing association house and was considered "top priority" because of my personal circumstances.

*FIVE years* it took to be offered a property - in fairness, it was lovely - brand new with the paint still drying when I collected the keys

I was the only person in the street working - I had no carpets, no Sky dish, no telephone and just a black and white portable TV on a box and sat on a deck-chair. Just one room was furnished, my daughters bedroom, thanks to my parents.

My washing machine was second hand and had to be dragged out every time I wanted to use it so I could hit the starter motor with a mallet to get it working.

I had to leave my car half a mile down the road on the hill to ensure I could roll it down every morning to start it - in my boot I had a bucket and mop to get the water out when it rained.

During my time there, I witnessed overnight police raids involving guns, children as young as five delivering drugs, night-times of kids swinging off lamp-posts and driving bikes and motorbikes across the open plan gardens.

One rare warm day when my car was on the driveway, a neighbours pit-bull, cool as you like, jumped into my car, taking up residence in the back seat refusing to move - not one ever to be afraid of dogs, this was one occasion when I really was on my guard 

When I asked my housing officer what would happen if people discovered my father was a retired senior police officer, I was told they would "probably burn my house down".

I was a hard working single mum trying to make my way in life - I was studying and working - and literally didn't have a pot to piss in - frequently making decisions whether to feed myself or pay my rent and council tax (and keep enough back for my weekly child care costs).

I eventually moved out to lodge with a friend, but was still paying back-rent 6 months later

I don't know how people do what they do on benefits, what I do know is that in a whole street of being the only person working, I was most definitely the most disadvantaged of all the housing association residents 

I felt most sorry for those living in the first few houses on the street, who had bought them as new properties on what should have been a "luxury new development" before the property developers sold out to a housing association.

Based on my own experiences, plus what I see now in others who haven't worked a day in their lives, but are capable of doing far more than I and friends seem to be able to on their state funded income, it's not hard to see why people become angry and bitter.

Maybe they work cash in hand - maybe they get money from other sources, I really don't know -

What I do know is there are people out there living better lives than many people working their fingers to the bones day and night just to make ends meet 

===============

When I eventually bought a little house for my daughter and I, my monthly mortgage was LESS than the rent I'd paid on my housing association house - a rent that for those not working was paid on their behalf


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