# Questions about birman persian cross cats as I am looking to rescue one?



## Guest (May 17, 2013)

I am looking to give a loving home to one of cartoonz rescue cats which is a possible 2 year old birman Persian cross or birman blue tabby point She looks so adorable. This adoption isn't taking place immediately for various reasons, so this gives me time to do a bit of research into the cats possible breed(s).

What kind of personality does a birman Persian cross or birman blue tabby point have?

Is a birman persian cross or birman blue tabby point a pedigree cat?

What kind of temperament do birman Persian crosses or birman blue tabby point have?

Is there any iillnesses the birman Persian cross breeds or birman blue tabby points are prone to?

There is a question mark over if she is a birman blue tabby point or a birman cross Persian cat (I would have to ask cartoonz if I can put pictures up on here to get advice on her breed).

Yes the time is approaching for me to open my heart to another furry friend as I feel comfortable knowing Cuddles wants me to do this.


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## Joy84 (Nov 21, 2012)

I can't answer any of your questions but just wanted to say it's fantastic news Tom, good luck


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

me too xxx


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

A Birman-Persian is a cross between the two pedigrees. There has been some outcrossing from Birmans to Persians to presumably widen the gene pool and reduce health problems (I believe Birmans are prone to HCM) but presumably the offspring will then need to be mated back to a Birman to regain the Birman breed? Not sure how that works to be honest though. 

Blue point is basically to put it in simple terms, the colour of the face etc (i.e points) A Blue Tabby will have the tabby pattern but in a blue colour. 

I have no idea if Persians suffer from any health issues or if the Birman's suffer from anything else. In theory, if mated correctly then both of the parent cats will compliment each other, both cats should not suffer from the same issues or it increases the risk of the kittens getting it (hence why outcrossing is often done) 

Other than that I have no idea but somebody will


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> I am looking to give a loving home to one of cartoonz rescue cats which is a possible 2 year old birman Persian cross or birman blue tabby point She looks so adorable. This adoption isn't taking place immediately for various reasons, so this gives me time to do a bit of research into the cats possible breed(s).
> 
> What kind of personality does a birman Persian cross or birman blue tabby point have?
> 
> ...


Congratulations for deciding to adopt
Firstly, Birmans are gorgeous cats- I have one myself.
In answer to your questions...
1. They should have a fairy relaxed temperament, and lots of hair! 
2. If not fully heath tested, they are prone to HCM and some other things which I can't remember the name of 
3. If it is a cross, then no- it is not a pedigree, and it is also not a full pedigree if it doesn't have any papers.

Also, a Birman 'blue tabby point' is just a name for its markings on its face, tail and egs, not its breed. Its breed is a Birman, and its colouring is a blue tabby point.
For example, my birman is a 'Seal point' and he looks like this


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

I can't really offer any help except ooohh, keep us posted xxx

Ingrid, your Leo. is WOW xxx


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

This is very good news Tom. Your possible new little girl sounds lovely :001_wub:


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## danniandnala (Aug 31, 2012)

Sorry no advice hun....please keep us posted on any news and good look xx


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

the original Jonescat was a blue pt Birman. Wonderful cat. Strugglung with phone at the mo but will say more tomorrow.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Tom it is fantastic news that you feel ready to make a connection with another cat, remember that Cuddles trained you for this job as Cat Butler so you are well qualified.
I am sure Catcoonz will be able to tell you lots about this particular cat and it's characteristics as well as discuss the foods it is eating.
I have 2 Birman crosses ( Mitzy and Milo in my signature) and they are very sweet gentle cats. They are quite fluffy though so prepare your self for regular grooming sessions.:laugh:


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thought a pic may help, sadly i know nothing about Birmans as ive only ever studied my own breed line.

All i can say is she is affectionate, vet checks will be done eg; bloods, urine plus all other health checks to ensure she is fit and healthy to give tom love.

Sadly i cant put her story up yet until i know she is safe in her forever home and all checks have been done, so to say we know nothing about this girl except she needs a home who will love her.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Thought a pic may help, sadly i know nothing about Birmans as ive only ever studied my own breed line.
> 
> All i can say is she is affectionate, vet checks will be done eg; bloods, urine plus all other health checks to ensure she is fit and healthy to give tom love.
> 
> Sadly i cant put her story up yet until i know she is safe in her forever home and all checks have been done, so to say we know nothing about this girl except she needs a home who will love her.


I will definitely provide her with a loving home, just replying to your email now


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

Shes def not full Birman I'd say, persian x birman sounds about right, her face is too flat to be a full Birman.


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## GingerJasper (Oct 29, 2012)

Congrats Tom on deciding to have a playmate for both you and cuddles.

CC she is beautiful, love the 2nd pic.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

GingerJasper said:


> Congrats Tom on deciding to have a playmate for both you and cuddles.
> 
> CC she is beautiful, love the 2nd pic.


 Right I'm going to have a sulk and cry.
Cuddles ain't with me anymore, she sadly had to be pts.


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## GingerJasper (Oct 29, 2012)

Oh Tom thats terrible news i'm so sorry. What happened?

Running over to give you a massive hug and a big box of tissues. I'm welling up just typing.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Tom, you'd be the perfect slave for this beautiful girl :001_wub: 

I'm so pleased you feel ready to share your life with another cat  xx 

Please keep us updated.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

She's lovely, but I've seen a LH colourpoint Justa and without information about her background I feel she could be another example of this noble 'breed'. Her ears are too big for a Persian, face nothing like flat enough, and she doesn't have the look that the Persian cross cats I've seen had. To me she is much more like a Birman than a Persian.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

GingerJasper said:


> Oh Tom thats terrible news i'm so sorry. What happened?
> 
> Running over to give you a massive hug and a big box of tissues. I'm welling up just typing.


Have pm'd you.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Forgot to say, Birmans have white feet and I'm pretty sure Birman crosses do as well.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

It was mentioned earlier in the thread by oggers86 that Birman's are prone to HCM, is this true? Also if she is a cross breed Birman and ? would she still possibly get (inherit from her blood line) or have HCM?


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> It was mentioned earlier in the thread by oggers86 that Birman's are prone to HCM, is this true? Also if she is a cross breed Birman and ? would she still possibly get (inherit from her blood line) or have HCM?


She could possibly, but only if her parents weren't tested, which i'd suspect they weren't. I'm not sure if you could test her now for it or not though.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Ingrid25 said:


> She could possibly, but only if her parents weren't tested, which i'd suspect they weren't. I'm not sure if you could test her now for it or not though.


I think the vet would have to listen for a heart murmur, I know the full testing would include an xray, ecg and echo heart scan, but I do believe some heart conditions can be detected through blood test (HCM as far as I am aware isn't detectable through blood tests though). It doesn't matter either way as I want to give this lovely lady a home she can enjoy her life in


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

She is gorgeous Tom and I am sure Cuddles would be very happy for you to share your love with this lovely girl 

It is important to get her tested for HCM of course whatever her background, I really hope she is negative and in great health  xx


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

She is gorgeous. I hope you get her


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

She is gorgeous Tom. I am so pleased you feel ready to look after this beautifull girl . Looking forward to some pictures when you bring her home.  

Viv xx


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Cartoonz is having her checked over for me, neutered, microchipped, blood and urine tested and vaccinated so I am looking at roughly 5 weeks before I can bring her home.


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

Fantastic news :thumbsup: don't forget we need lots of pictures 

Viv xx


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

As you know Tom I have a blue tabby point Birman - unfortunately with HCM - though this is the point - it's unfortunate and not what always happens. CC will make sure she is healthy as the majority of Birmans are. Looking at her she is a bit Birman but that white chin is making me think - Birmans don't have that - it's a Raggie trait. SO maybe she is a cross Raggie/ Birman - whatever she is she really a colour-pointed blue tabby Justa as we don't know. But . . . 

Birman/ Raggie traits (let's assume she has some Birman or Raggie in her) she will be very friendly and cute and nice and also demanding and prima donna like - she will stare at yo with those big bluely when she wants something and you will feel her gaze boring into the back of your head - but it's a good thing. If it's Raggie she will be a bit more laid back and floppy, if Birman less floppy but still very cuddly. Birmans can 'huff' too - literally! If they get annoyed because you aren't feeding them quickly enough they huff at you - it's like a sigh. It's very cute! SHe will need grooming a lot to make sure she doesn't matt. A little bit every day and see how she goes and then you might manage twice a week afte that. Minnii matts after one day now, but when she was younger and well I only did it once a week and she was fine. It will depend on her fur. 

I think you are just right for this girl Tom. Congratulations!


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

spid said:


> As you know Tom I have a blue tabby point Birman - unfortunately with HCM - though this is the point - it's unfortunate and not what always happens. CC will make sure she is healthy as the majority of Birmans are. Looking at her she is a bit Birman but that white chin is making me think - Birmans don't have that - it's a Raggie trait. SO maybe she is a cross Raggie/ Birman - whatever she is she really a colour-pointed blue tabby Justa as we don't know. But . . .
> 
> Birman/ Raggie traits (let's assume she has some Birman or Raggie in her) she will be very friendly and cute and nice and also demanding and prima donna like - she will stare at yo with those big bluely when she wants something and you will feel her gaze boring into the back of your head - but it's a good thing. If it's Raggie she will be a bit more laid back and floppy, if Birman less floppy but still very cuddly. Birmans can 'huff' too - literally! If they get annoyed because you aren't feeding them quickly enough they huff at you - it's like a sigh. It's very cute! SHe will need grooming a lot to make sure she doesn't matt. A little bit every day and see how she goes and then you might manage twice a week afte that. Minnii matts after one day now, but when she was younger and well I only did it once a week and she was fine. It will depend on her fur.
> 
> I think you are just right for this girl Tom. Congratulations!


I am glad you replied, I was hoping you would. I am starting to get excited and looking forward to getting her. I love the way you described the personality she could have and I know cc will be making sure the cat is healthy :thumbsup:

I will make sure she is well looked after when I bring her to her new home


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## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

absolutely no idea about breeds but wanted to say well done ! Like you we lost our dear cat in Feb and are now blessed with 2 kitties who we rescued 2 weeks ago - best decision ever to pass on the love and I'm sure our lost ones would agree - they will always remain in our hearts.

oh and she has the most beautiful eyes - think she might have u wrapped round her paws!


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

The vet will listen for heart murmors but sadly i cant get much discount for a heart scan, this would cost me £249.

Petlog gives 4 weeks free petplan insurance so Tom keep up with the insurance, i will ensure she is as healthy as possible.

I would hope bloods and urine tests would eliminate most problems.
As for what breed she is all i have is the word of her previous owner, no paperwork and very little information.

So to clarify what she will have done:
bloods
urine
booster injection
microchip with 4 weeks free petplan insurance
spayed
3 vet health checks possibly more depends on how the vet seems fit really.
Bloods will rule out calici aswell.

She does need feeding up as alittle on the thin side but rest assured Tom everything i can do to ensure she is healthy i will do. xx

oh yes, and if she needs to be put as a longhair moggy then thats what the paperwork will state.


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Oh, Tom. She is beautiful! :001_wub: 

I was thinking about you this morning, actually, and wondering when you'd open up your heart again- wonderful to read you feel ready to.

I hope all goes well and I look forward to updates!


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

She is definitely reserved for Tom.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Tom so pleased to read that you feel ready to let another furbie in to your heart.She is gorgeous and I'm sure you will give each other so much happiness for the years to come


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## Hb-mini (May 20, 2009)

Great news! She is gorgeous!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Just read through this and can't top the advice you have already been given so I just want to say I am so happy for you Tom and wish you and this beautiful girl a long and happy life together.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Oh Tom , I am so soooooo pleased to read this  cuddles will be delighted and honoured that you want to give your love to another needy soul 

Bless you  not much advice except to say congratulations


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## egyptianreggae (May 26, 2012)

Congratulations Tom! Can't wait to hear more about your new kitty, she will have a wonderful new home with you.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Edited to add .....

I hadn't read the whole thread when I posted , I was too excited for you . I have now and ......

*WOW !!!!! *She is gorgeous :001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Tom, i will leave you in the capable hands of Cats Galore as she has very kindly offered to foster for me for a few days, im sure she will keep you updated with photo's and any little habits Cassie has (cassie named for rescue only).

Cassie will then be coming to me for all vet tests then as i have Libby and 2 others due kittens very soon Spid will kindly take over Cassie's care plus Spid feeds the same diet you wish to put Cassie on.

Once everything is completed and the vet is 100% happy for rehoming Cassie will be returned to me ready for your collection, understand snwj has kindly offered to deliver to you if needed. xxxx

If you have any questions or just a chat you know where i am.

Lastly Thankyou so very much Tom for offering this wonderful girl a fantastic loving home. :thumbsup:


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> The vet will listen for heart murmors but sadly i cant get much discount for a heart scan, this would cost me £249.


 If the vet does discover a heart murmur I will get this investigated when I have adopted her and she has settled in with me.



> i will ensure she is as healthy as possible.
> 
> I would hope bloods and urine tests would eliminate most problems.
> As for what breed she is all i have is the word of her previous owner, no paperwork and very little information.
> ...


 I really appreciate what you are doing CC.



> She does need feeding up as alittle on the thin side but rest assured Tom everything i can do to ensure she is healthy i will do. xx


 I will feed her up and help her put some weight on.

Thank you CC for all you are going to do, I am looking forward to bringing her home when she is ready to leave your rescue.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sharing another photo.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Tom, i will leave you in the capable hands of Cats Galore as she has very kindly offered to foster for me for a few days, im sure she will keep you updated with photo's and any little habits Cassie has (cassie named for rescue only).
> 
> Cassie will then be coming to me for all vet tests then as i have Libby and 2 others due kittens very soon Spid will kindly take over Cassie's care plus Spid feeds the same diet you wish to put Cassie on.
> 
> ...


Ok no problems :thumbsup:

Pass on my email address if you wish CC to cats galore and spid. I look forward to plenty of updates 

Thank you once again.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh, what super news! CC, those RC Persian biscuits should be excellent at putting the weight back onher. Much as I hate the food, if she's a Persian cross, she's going to only pick at her food, and they are very, very high in calories.

Tom, if she has Persian in her, then you may need to clean her eyes regularly, as many of them have runny eyes. You're also going to need to groom regularly. When I next go to CC's, I'll have a look at her coat, then can recommend brushes/combs if that would be helpful.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Gosh, looks like a whole team of PF experts are getting involved in the care of this extra special little lady.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Oh Tom, this girl was meant for you......
Look at her eyes, so sad, a little scared, full of longing and a hint of hope and trust.
It is as if she knows she will be loved from now on but dare not believe it yet.
If ever a cat needed you to restore her confidence and happiness, this girl is.

Cuddles chose well!!!!
I have always known she would find you a cat that needed your love and comfort _at least_ as much as you needed his or hers, and she came through for you and darling Cassie.

I see a hint of classic Persian in her, not the modern bashed-in nosed ones, but the oldfashioned Persians from the early 20th century, with the high angular brow. The big round eyes might also be Persian. I do agree that there might be either Birman or Raggie in there, I don't know either breed well enough to tell the difference in a cross.

But she is beautiful, and, far more important, she desperately needs to love and be loved......


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Oh, what super news! CC, those RC Persian biscuits should be excellent at putting the weight back onher. Much as I hate the food, if she's a Persian cross, she's going to only pick at her food, and they are very, very high in calories.
> 
> Tom, if she has Persian in her, then you may need to clean her eyes regularly, as many of them have runny eyes. You're also going to need to groom regularly. When I next go to CC's, I'll have a look at her coat, then can recommend brushes/combs if that would be helpful.


I don't think her eyes will give her trouble, Carly, she doesn't have a Persian's nose, her face is regal and angular with a high brow, like the Persian cats of a century ago. More like a modern day BSH than a modern day Persian.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Wow, she's a stunning girl! Congratulations Tom it seems like a match made in heaven!


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Oooh Tom , I'm so excited for you !!!   I just can't wait to hear all about her settling in and the bond that you will develop 

If you're planning on feeding dry for weight gain, RCs outdoor 30 has more calories than the persian variety


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> Oooh Tom , I'm so excited for you !!!   I just can't wait to hear all about her settling in and the bond that you will develop
> 
> If you're planning on feeding dry for weight gain, RCs outdoor 30 has more calories than the persian variety


:yikes: I went to have a lie down and my phone started bleeping as all the updates to this thread came through on my email 

Your excited, I'm excited, the whole of PF cat forums members look excited too 

I am going to have her on a more natural diet (If she'll take to this, someone is helping with this in the background ), no biscuits 

I can't wait to have her home with me, but this is going to be a short while yet, but I will be her for her when she's ready.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Paddypaws said:


> Gosh, looks like a whole team of PF experts are getting involved in the care of this extra special little lady.


It certainly does look like all the PF experts are involved in the care of this little lady as she makes her way to my home 

I can't express how excited I am


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> I don't think her eyes will give her trouble, Carly, she doesn't have a Persian's nose, her face is regal and angular with a high brow, like the Persian cats of a century ago. More like a modern day BSH than a modern day Persian.


I am reading up on Birmans, Birman Persian Cross breeds and Birman ragdolls at the moment online. Very interesting background information from wikipedia.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

She is adorable!! :001_wub:

I can see Persian in her face, with her big round eyes and even a little in her nose - similar to a BSH but they are of course Persian crosses anyway 
So you will get the cuteness of a Persian but without the really flattened features which can cause breathing problems in some cats. I am sure Cassie will feel right at home in your cosy flat being pampered and well cared for :thumbsup: xxx


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

soooooooo happy for u both,....its a good day


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

She's a beauty  It does look like there might be a bit of persian in her, get used to the fluff 


Good luck with everything


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> :yikes: I went to have a lie down and my phone started bleeping as all the updates to this thread came through on my email
> 
> Your excited, I'm excited, the whole of PF cat forums members look excited too
> 
> ...


Oh goody, no need for horrid dry food then  good for you, start as you mean to go on 

So pleased for you , beautiful Cassie will help heal your heart Tom  xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Wasn't suggesting to feed dry food forever, only initially to bulk her if she can't have raw with CC. 

JKF, believe it or not, the ones with the runniest eyes in this house are the ones with a nose. My flatties don't have the same trouble, mainly, I think, because I was better equipped to really choose carefully and knew the lines a lot better, so knew they were from good cats. Not so when I bought Tia, and as Millie's hers, she inherrited it. Yet another thing to breed out, and thankfully I can already see it's much, much less with Apache. Just ask Jenny though. Her Manny has a decent nose, but keeping on top of the eyes is a constant job!


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I used to have a blue point Birman cross Persian, he was really loving and a wonderful cat, I always thought he was a Ragdoll in his own rights as I am pretty sure a Ragdoll comes from breeding Persians and Birmans together originally, I could be wrong though as I am not sure of the breed.
If your kitten has pedigree papers it will be a pedigree, if both parents were registered I think a Birman cross Persian can be registered too. I didn't have papers for mine but I think you can do.
My husbands Auntie has all the registration and pedigree papers for her cat which is a cross between a Persian and a Bengal.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

sharonbee said:


> I used to have a blue point Birman cross Persian, he was really loving and a wonderful cat, I always thought he was a Ragdoll in his own rights as I am pretty sure a Ragdoll comes from breeding Persians and Birmans together originally, I could be wrong though as I am not sure of the breed.
> If your kitten has pedigree papers it will be a pedigree, if both parents were registered I think a Birman cross Persian can be registered too. I didn't have papers for mine but I think you can do.
> My husbands Auntie has all the registration and pedigree papers for her cat which is a cross between a Persian and a Bengal.


She's a rescue cat, no papers only info from previous owners, plus she's about 2 years old not a kitten but a cat


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Sorry I have had a long day and just flicking through the forum with eyes held open with matchsticks lol, haven't read all the posts but just wanted to say how it could be a pedigree in its own rights. 
She sounds lovely anyway.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi tom this is my blue tabby point 'obviously a different breed to your girl' never the less this is I blue tabby point.

Im not sure whether your girl is just more heavily marked than mine or maybe she could be seal,hard to tell with out a day light pic but just wanted to add this.

Very pretty girl you got coming.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Im actually confused bout this cat cause it doesn't have a brick coloured nose which tabby cats have,i can see the stripes but its not making sense to me,anyone know why this is?,,,,spid?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Taken from the Persian Standard of Points as seen by GCCF. Hope this helps.

TABBY POINT COLOURS - there should be a clearly defined 'M' marking on the forehead, 'spectacle' markings round the eyes and 
spotted whisker pads. The front legs have broken rings from the toes upwards; barring on the hind legs is confined to the front of the upper 
leg and thigh, the back of the leg from toe to hock being solid points colour. Ears solid but showing clear 'thumb marks' which are less 
apparent in dilute colours and mottled in the tortie tabby points. Hair inside the ears lighter, giving the appearance of a pale rim, ear 
tufts lighter in colour. Tail with broken rings. Nose leather pinkish outlined in pigment, or to tone with the points. Eye rims and paw pads 
to tone with the points.

NON-TORTIE TABBY COLOURS - these colours show distinct tabby markings, although they are much more subtle in the dilute colours.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Taken from the Standard of Points as seen by GCCF. Hope this helps.

TABBY POINT COLOURS - there should be a clearly defined 'M' marking on the forehead, 'spectacle' markings round the eyes and 
spotted whisker pads. The front legs have broken rings from the toes upwards; barring on the hind legs is confined to the front of the upper 
leg and thigh, the back of the leg from toe to hock being solid points colour. Ears solid but showing clear 'thumb marks' which are less 
apparent in dilute colours and mottled in the tortie tabby points. Hair inside the ears lighter, giving the appearance of a pale rim, ear 
tufts lighter in colour. Tail with broken rings. Nose leather pinkish outlined in pigment, or to tone with the points. Eye rims and paw pads 
to tone with the points.

NON-TORTIE TABBY COLOURS - these colours show distinct tabby markings, although they are much more subtle in the dilute colours.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Taken from the Standard of Points as seen by GCCF. Hope this helps.
> 
> TABBY POINT COLOURS - there should be a clearly defined 'M' marking on the forehead, 'spectacle' markings round the eyes and
> spotted whisker pads. The front legs have broken rings from the toes upwards; barring on the hind legs is confined to the front of the upper
> ...


nose leather defo not pinkish carly almost black,very strange as it does have some stripes on its forehead.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I am in doubt about her colour/markings too - I'd missed the nose leather in the excitement - but on closer inspection she doesn't have white ear rims, or spectacles,or whisker dots etc. I think she ISN'T genetically tabby and her mask just needs to develop more - often as the mask develops the tabby markings show first and then get covered up - this makes me think she could be younger than we have been told and she is very dark - darker than Minnii - but if non tabby would be. Confusing - I need to see her in the light. I feel a bit 'DOH!" that I missed it.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You'd expect the mask to be covering the tabby at about anywhere from 9 months to a year, sometimes a little later in females, earlier in males. How old do we think she is? Are we definitely sure she's blue even?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> You'd expect the mask to be covering the tabby at about anywhere from 9 months to a year, sometimes a little later in females, earlier in males. How old do we think she is? Are we definitely sure she's blue even?


Think that's a good question carly better pics would be needed to confirm she does kinda look darker than a blue but the lighting in the photo not the best for verifying.

All faith in spid mind.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

carly87 said:


> You'd expect the mask to be covering the tabby at about anywhere from 9 months to a year, sometimes a little later in females, earlier in males. How old do we think she is? Are we definitely sure she's blue even?


She's supposedly blue - but from the photos looks very dark - no shading on the back - I'm wondering if she younger than been told which is 2 years. Mask development is odd for a two year old, I would put her at under a year for her mask - but then why say she is 2 if she's not? If she's blue then the mask would take longer to develop than seal - but if she was seal it would def have covered by now. She's an odd one. The tabby thing is weird as she has quite strong makings on her legs still. We shall just have to inspect her Carly!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> She's supposedly blue - but from the photos looks very dark - no shading on the back - I'm wondering if she younger than been told which is 2 years. Mask development is odd for a two year old, I would put her at under a year for her mask - but then why say she is 2 if she's not? If she's blue then the mask would take longer to develop than seal - but if she was seal it would def have covered by now. She's an odd one. The tabby thing is weird as she has quite strong makings on her legs still. We shall just have to inspect her Carly!


totally agree a puzzling case.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

we love bsh's said:


> totally agree a puzzling case.


You're the CP expert - what do you think?


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Are only Tabby or tabby pointed cats meant to have the 'm'


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

The M is there even on untabby cats - it's just covered up - in a pointed cat, the mask gradually develops and eventually covers the M up if non tabby or leaves it if tabby - the presence of the M on it's own doesn't make her tabby as all cats are tabby underneath (it's the default setting) - she has none of the other tabby markers which is what is making it difficult!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> You're the CP expert - what do you think?


lol im baffled she has not got a tabby nose at all but does have strong well marked stripes,clearly visible.

I can see a blue-ish tone but does seem a bit dark,although obviously in the flesh could be different. Think about aurlies blue point bsh doesn't look as dark as this hmm 'freak of nature maybe, meant in a nice way'


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

spid said:


> The M is there even on untabby cats - it's just covered up - in a pointed cat, the mask gradually develops and eventually covers the M up if non tabby or leaves it if tabby - the presence of the M on it's own doesn't make her tabby as all cats are tabby underneath (it's the default setting) - she has none of the other tabby markers which is what is making it difficult!


I look forward to your verdict on her when you get to see her as it currently does sound very confusing


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

On closer inspection I wouldn't say blue either. Its kind of a seal/blue and odd markings and almost definitely persian x birman because of the nose and eyes.
Although she does have the 'M' on her forehead- it could be a developing point..


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

kate blue point brit hope she doesn't mind me showing you.

none tabby and clearly lighter.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

She is still very lovely whatever her colour and pattern Tom - and from the sounds of it very friendly!


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

spid said:


> She is still very lovely whatever her colour and pattern Tom - and from the sounds of it very friendly!


I totally agree she is lovely looking and to be honest I'm not bothered if she is a pedigree, cross breed or moggy as she sounds just right for me


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> I totally agree she is lovely looking and to be honest I'm not bothered if she is a pedigree, cross breed or moggy as she sounds just right for me


spoilt kitty me thinks


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Well, we aren't really debating her breed - she a cross - of what we don't know, so you call her a moggy. It's really a debate purely about colour and coat pattern. Like discussing the exact colour of a person's hair and whether it's straight, wavy or curly. Or their eyes etc. It's not even that important - we just have been intrigued by her.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> Well, we aren't really debating her breed - she a cross - of what we don't know, so you call her a moggy. It's really a debate purely about colour and coat pattern. Like discussing the exact colour of a person's hair and whether it's straight, wavy or curly. Or their eyes etc. It's not even that important - we just have been intrigued by her.


lol just made me think to anyone else they probably wouldn't even have these curious colour thoughts.:lol:


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> lol just made me think to anyone else they probably wouldn't even have these curious colour thoughts.:lol:


Well, you have me wondering if my Molly is a tabby point gone wrong, as she has a very clear M on her chocolate pointed face


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Well, you have me wondering if my Molly is a tabby point gone wrong, as she has a very clear M on her chocolate pointed face


come on then pop up your clearest piccy


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## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Congrats Tom, she looks gorgeous. As it seems she may be a Justa, I am going to change the title of my elite band of 'Seal point Justas' (membership: 3) to 'Colour point Justas' so she can swell the membership to 4!!!

I'm not really qualified to enter the debate but only to say she looks distinctly blue to me, just not sure if she will be tabby or not. My 2 seal point Justas were distinctly tabby-looking as youngsters: M's, specs, stripy bits, the works, and they are not above getting a pair of specs on in the warm weather even now they are older, so maybe her colour is still developing as suggested. Fascinating!!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Well, you have me wondering if my Molly is a tabby point gone wrong, as she has a very clear M on her chocolate pointed face


Is she young? could be ghost markings will/should go with 1st mault (sp)


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> come on then pop up your clearest piccy


Sorry Tom


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

MollyMilo said:


> Sorry Tom


Don't apologise as there's nothing to apologise about


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Is she young? could be ghost markings will/should go with 1st mault (sp)


Well 17 months

She also has ringed tail in the light


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Sorry Tom


deffo choc point heres a choc tabby point very different.

http://www.calvencadecats.nl/images/nemo-volwassen.jpg


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> don't apologise as there's nothing to apologise about


awwww.x


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> deffo choc point heres a choc tabby point very different.
> 
> http://www.calvencadecats.nl/images/nemo-volwassen.jpg


Her mum is a gorgeous choc tabby point, I do love them x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Her mum is a gorgeous choc tabby point, I do love them x


Really,i had one last year named spirit now spayed and retired.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Here she is









Tom do say if you mind me taking your thread off topic.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Really,i had one last year named spirit now spayed and retired.


Ill just accept its M for Molly Meezer


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Here she is
> 
> View attachment 114460
> 
> ...


GFI (Go for it)


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> GFI (Go for it)


:lol: was jus gonna ask whats gti mean? der!! you even writ it  silly me.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

It's been interesting reading this thread, especially about the colours etc  please carry on


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

cuddlesandme said:


> It's been interesting reading this thread, especially about the colours etc  please carry on


Isnt it just  hmm running out of stuff tom 

hmm ok this is what colour my next litter will be mum is a lilac tortie bi point and dad is a chocolate self.

Colours expected -Females - lilac or chocolate tortie, lilac or chocolate in either selfs,tri colours,bi colours,colourpoints or colourpoint and white.

Males in - lilac,chocolate,red or cream in either self,bi colour,colourpoint or colourpoint and white.

 XX


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

This is mum and this is dad.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

sharonbee said:


> <snip>
> I am pretty sure a Ragdoll comes from breeding Persians and Birmans together originally,
> <snip>


Ragdoll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW Birman <> Burmese!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Im actually confused bout this cat cause it doesn't have a brick coloured nose which tabby cats have,i can see the stripes but its not making sense to me,anyone know why this is?,,,,spid?


So it's a self cat with very heavy ghost markings, which some have.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

From the description, she sounds like a poor seal, again meant in the nicest way possible. I don't have any seal points to show. Che couldn't be a choc tabby, could she? And has anyone considered tortie tabby? They do have the stripes, but the colour's a lot more mottled and mingled in the colourpoints. The M should be present whether pointed or not if she's a well marked tabby. Does she have thumb rpints to the back of the ears? Even they should still be there. As for the age, at 2, even if she's a blue the mask should be all the way in.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

This is why I don't have tabbys in my breeding programme! Too blimmin confusing!


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## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

I wondered if there was tortie going on....oooh she's a conundrum. Lots more photos of this lovely lady are needed methinks.


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

she has dark legs and tail (chocolate colour). her ears are brown with blue at the back and there is a small patch of blue on her back towards her neck. she's very pretty. i'll try and get some better photos later but i'm just about to take my daughter to run in the 'race for life' so i'll be back soon hopefully for you


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

carly87 said:


> From the description, she sounds like a poor seal, again meant in the nicest way possible. I don't have any seal points to show. Che couldn't be a choc tabby, could she?.


Agree she's a poor seal or maybe chocolate. As she's not a pedigree and not bred for colour you can't really expect the same standard.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

cats galore said:


> she has dark legs and tail (chocolate colour). her ears are brown with blue at the back and there is a small patch of blue on her back towards her neck. she's very pretty. i'll try and get some better photos later but i'm just about to take my daughter to run in the 'race for life' so i'll be back soon hopefully for you


Look forward to seeing more pics 

Well done to your daughter :thumbup: hope she has a great day


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How about blue-based caramel? Caramel is in moggies which is what I think she is, and they are darker than blue and brown yet not chocolate.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

cats galore said:


> she has dark legs and tail (chocolate colour). her ears are brown with blue at the back and there is a small patch of blue on her back towards her neck


She can't be blue and chocolate/brown. Could be a poor blue, lots of rufousing that can look brown. Tail tips often tell the true colour.

Hope you can get some better pics of her


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

Tom CG's mom here and all i can say is i have met Angel Rosa Bella and whatever she turns out to be she is beautiful and really enjoys giving lots of love and cuddles. there's the proof that Cuddles has sent her just for you


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

j4nfr4n said:


> Tom CG's mom here and all i can say is i have met Angel Rosa Bella and whatever she turns out to be she is beautiful and really enjoys giving lots of love and cuddles. there's the proof that Cuddles has sent her just for you


She sounds as if she truely is an Angel sent from rainbow road by Cuddles 

I am not too fussed what she turns out to be breed wise. I know the colours are intriguing and there's alot of talk on here about this


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Well if she was tortie the paw pads would be the dead giveaway,would be mottled coloured pink with what ever colour she turns out to be.

..and I think OS may be onto something possible re the caremal based but that's not my area for sure.


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## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Blue-based caramel certainly sounds glamorous enough to be her!! I just googled it and the genetics were slightly too much for me on a Sunday morning, photos of and description of blue-based caramel Siamese looked like a much more uniform colour to my unschooled mind. Has anyone who has actually seen her looked at her pads to see if she has the giveaway tortie markings described by WLBSH's?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nothing fancy about caramel. If a dilute cat (blue, lilac, fawn) has a copy or two of the dilute modifier gene it becomes a sludgy brown, though obviourly different to chocolate. The gene doesn't have any effect on black/chocolate/cinnamon cats so caramel kittens can 'pop up' from 'nowhere' sometimes. There isn't a gene test for it as yet. It turns cream cats to apricot - a hotter colour.

Her pads will be black if she is seal, and slatey blue if she is blue. I can't see anything in the photo that suggests to me she is a tortie.


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## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Her pads will be black if she is seal, and slatey blue if she is blue. I can't see anything in the photo that suggests to me she is a tortie.


My guys have both got brown pads....does that mean I am erroneously calling them seal point? :eek6:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Nothing fancy about caramel. If a dilute cat (blue, lilac, fawn) has a copy or two of the dilute modifier gene it becomes a sludgy brown, though obviourly different to chocolate. The gene doesn't have any effect on black/chocolate/cinnamon cats so caramel kittens can 'pop up' from 'nowhere' sometimes. There isn't a gene test for it as yet. It turns cream cats to apricot - a hotter colour.
> 
> Her pads will be black if she is seal, and slatey blue if she is blue. I can't see anything in the photo that suggests to me she is a tortie.


Is this for any breed os iv not come across the modifier I my breeding yet?


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Tom she is absolutely gorgeous:001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:

Congratulations:thumbsup::thumbsup:

And as for these bliddy breeders hijacking your thread OMG :lol::lol::lol::lol:

My Justa Ragdolls have strange markings too:lol:


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tao2 said:


> My guys have both got brown pads....does that mean I am erroneously calling them seal point? :eek6:


Guess they might be dark brown on a seal-point.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Finally back with a proper keyboard and able to see pictures properly - there are times when I hate my phone. Anyway about Birman characters, the one I had was sweet, friendly, refused to believe bad things about anyone and wasn't really very bright. He was never very far from a person, prone to loneliness and a bit noisy (Siamese-style). His idea of hunting was sitting on the bird table, and when he went to the vet he walked out the carrier with his tail up expecting adoration. He wandered in and out of the neighbours houses, and could be carried upside down like a baby. Hopefully you will get some of these characteristics too. 

Health-wise he was pretty robust, was slightly prone to plaque and had one tear duct that was too narrow, which made his eye run sometimes. We could have had an op but chose not to as it didn't really bother him enough. His tummy fur did get knots in it, especially in what would have been his armpits, but the rest was fine. He was happy being groomed though as it meant he was the centre of attention. 

Yours looks lovely, if a bit surprised by her current circumstances, which is only to be expected. When she comes home to you, I know we will get loads of photos and look forward to them. :thumbsup:


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

I dunno! Away from the forums because I had a busy weekend (visiting pups ) and THIS happens!!!

I'm so happy for you, Tom, I could blub! What a beautiful girl she is! You lucky, lucky chap


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

How have I missed all of this???!!!! 

Wow, Tom, she is beautiful, I want one! Really pleased for you, bet you can't wait until she comes home, what fun you are going to have! Lots more photos required please


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