# Geronimo the Alpaca



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

There must have been a better way, than dragging the poor animal away like that.
Warning could be upsetting...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58255378

RIP lovely boy


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Happy Paws2 said:


> There must have been a better way, than dragging the poor animal away like that.
> Warning could be upsetting...
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58255378


I've just read this and posted elsewhere. I agree with you, it looked awful and he must have been terrified. The owner was offered the option of having her own vet come in and put him down but she wouldn't and seems to have preferred to make a fuss instead of considering what was right for Geronimo.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

The owners were given plenty of warning that he was going to be taken if they didn't arrange for him to be pts.
He tested positive twice...thousands of cows are killed when they only test positive once.

This may be an unpopular opinion but the only ones to blame for Geronimo's stress are his owners...there was a better way but they chose not to go that route because of their own selfish needs


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, it is a sad story (I didn't watch the clip in case it was upsetting) & considering this was always going to be the outcome I can't understand why they couldn't have arranged for it to be done at home therefore less stressful for Geronimo


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## teddylion (Oct 16, 2019)

Many people will say it's a fuss over nothing, but it was sad to see him stressed and dragged away from his home. RIP Geronimo


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> The owners were given plenty of warning that he was going to be taken if they didn't arrange for him to be pts.
> He tested positive twice...thousands of cows are killed when they only test positive once.
> 
> This may be an unpopular opinion but the only ones to blame for Geronimo's stress are his owners...there was a better way but they chose not to go that route because of their own selfish needs


Couldn't agree more - think of all the farmers whose livelihoods were decimated when whole herds had to be culled because of bovine TB. The case of Geronimo is very sad, but why should the government make an exception to rules put in place to protect the farming industry for one pet.

She knew the rules and she had the chance to give this poor animal a peaceful and less stressful end but chose not to


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I believe they can vaccinate cattle against TB but they wont pay the cost.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I believe they can vaccinate cattle against TB but they wont pay the cost.


Yes and no.

There is a vaccine (BCG), but the problem lies within TB testing. The vaccine leads to false positives. If we culled all vaccinated cattle that tested positive, we'd be culling around 80% of the population.

There is an alternative test in development, but as with anything medical, they all have to be funded, trialled, and then approved.

Until then we have to work with what we have available.

Farmers are compensated 100% of the market value of culled cattle, but it still leaves them out of pocket and is the biggest threat to UK cattle farmers.

I dont agree with keeping this animal alive for research purposes - alpacas are social creatures and living a life of solitude would be cruel imo.

Will be interesting to see what his PM shows. His death may not be entirely in vain.

Shame his owner didnt spare him this final stress and have him killed herself.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Siskin said:


> I've just read this and posted elsewhere. I agree with you, it looked awful and he must have been terrified. The owner was offered the option of having her own vet come in and put him down but she wouldn't and seems to have preferred to make a fuss instead of considering what was right for Geronimo.


Yes, I would rather have had it done at home by my vet than being dragged away 

I believe the tests were flawed, but given there was no budging by the authorities the stress could have been avoided for him.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

oh Poor Geronino.  Where was he destroyed.? ( sorry didnt want to read the link. )


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Very sad, bless him.
I can’t look.
Run free little man


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Apologies if I sound entirely uneducated in bovine TB (that would be because I am) but if he is isolated from other farm animals and does not show signs of stress/depression (such as stereotypic behaviours) then what was the issue with keeping him alive?

BUT I was under the impression that bovine TB would be transmissible in similar ways to human TB. Meaning that it is airborne. If this is true then how on earth was he kept alive this long if he was a constant threat to any humans working with him?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> Apologies if I sound entirely uneducated in bovine TB (that would be because I am) but if he is isolated from other farm animals and does not show signs of stress/depression (such as stereotypic behaviours) then what was the issue with keeping him alive?
> 
> BUT I was under the impression that bovine TB would be transmissible in similar ways to human TB. Meaning that it is airborne. If this is true then how on earth was he kept alive this long if he was a constant threat to any humans working with him?


The issue as far as DEFRA is concerned is that if you let one positively tested animal survive then there will be farmers all round the country demanding that their animals be permitted to live. Apparently it is not a pleasant disease for animals to have and there is the risk that it will be passed onto other animals within the farm.
Alpacas are social creatures like most herbivores and it would have been cruel to have kept him on his own for the rest of his life.

edited to add
Deer can get TB and pass it to other animals, so it would mean keeping him inside so as not to risk contact with wild deer and passing it on


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Impossible to ignore the photos on Twitter. It would have been kinder to have him PTS before Defra came.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Siskin said:


> The issue as far as DEFRA is concerned is that if you let one positively tested animal survive then there will be farmers all round the country demanding that their animals be permitted to live. Apparently it is not a pleasant disease for animals to have and there is the risk that it will be passed onto other animals within the farm.
> Alpacas are social creatures like most herbivores and it would have been cruel to have kept him on his own for the rest of his life.
> 
> edited to add
> Deer can get TB and pass it to other animals, so it would mean keeping him inside so as not to risk contact with wild deer and passing it on


This is understandable from my point of view. I did watch the video and saw the banners saying "Science not slaughter". I'm assuming these banners were hanged by those opposed to his euthanization. What "science" were they touting? does anyone know?? Even if he is asymptomatic the risk of transmission to humans working with him and deer as you say is still present. I'm not sure what science would contradict this.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Oh dear I’ve just seen a video of him being seized and it looked immensely stressful for the animal (not helped by the angry protesters).

Easy to say when it’s not your animal involved I suppose but this really should have been dealt with quietly some time ago, both because the reason for euthanising him was legitimate and unavoidable and also to allow him to go peacefully at home instead of how it ended today.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

I have just read the update/ account of what really happened and am sickened. There is no blame to the owner. She did all she could to avoid this . Typical English behaviour by the govt. The animal did not matter. They could have done it quietly or let her deal with it. Not allowing an independent vet? 

Signing off on this thread. As I did on the UK years ago .


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Isolette said:


> I have just read the update/ account of what really happened and am sickened. There is no blame to the owner. She did all she could to avoid this . *Typical English behaviour by the govt.* The animal did not matter. They could have done it quietly or let her deal with it. Not allowing an independent vet?
> 
> Signing off on this thread. As I did on the UK years ago .


Nothing surprises me about this government, they have no compassion for anything, I sometimes think they can be pure evil.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Isolette said:


> I have just read the update/ account of what really happened and am sickened. There is no blame to the owner. She did all she could to avoid this . Typical English behaviour by the govt. The animal did not matter. They could have done it quietly or let her deal with it. Not allowing an independent vet?
> 
> Signing off on this thread. As I did on the UK years ago .


She really didn't...she could have arranged for a vet to put him down quietly at home... they had plenty of time. He did not need to be dragged away...


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Isolette said:


> I have just read the update/ account of what really happened and am sickened. There is no blame to the owner. She did all she could to avoid this . Typical English behaviour by the govt. The animal did not matter. They could have done it quietly or let her deal with it. Not allowing an independent vet?
> 
> Signing off on this thread. As I did on the UK years ago .


She was given the chance of having her own vets put him down but she refused. She left DEFRA with no other choice. It was the protesters and her own silliness over this that caused the behaviour on the day not the British government.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

From what I have read (admittedly not that much!) carcasses from animals infected with bTB can still sold for consumption:

TB infected cattle sold as meat for human consumption - Channel 4 News
Is meat from cattle culled due to bTB fit to eat? | TB Free England

There was an interesting discussion on R2 yesterday about this where they had Geronimo's owner on & vet discussing the tests, etc. The whole process sounds floored & costly tbh surely something better can be sorted out

I didn't listen to much of what the owner said but I couldn't help but feel sorry for her regardless of my feeling about what I thought she should have done, very different I suppose when it's your pet's life at risk. I think alot of people supporting her & questioning the decision by DEFRA regarding Geronimo would also be very sympathetic towards farmers who lose £££'s every year due to this only Geronimo wasn't about £££'s as he was a pet.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Siskin said:


> She was given the chance of having her own vets put him down but she refused. She left DEFRA with no other choice. It was the protesters and her own silliness over this that caused the behaviour on the day not the British government.


None of that is true. Quite the opposite . Se the Telegraph article . All lies.

How CAN you attack someone who has suffered so much and has fought so hard for fair treatment? They came in when she was out. And stated that they refused to allow her vet to act and why. l

Same as in the foot and mouth . I HATE the UK and am closing down if this is the standard here.

Shame on you; absolute shame on you.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I give up, I’m not going to argue


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

As I've said before "I believe they can vaccinate cattle against TB but they wont pay the cost!!"


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Happy Paws2 said:


> As I've said before "I believe they can vaccinate cattle against TB but they wont pay the cost!!"


I think, from my limited knowledge, that it is actually due to the fact that the BCG vaccine creates a false-positive result in the majority of vaccinated cattle. I would presume that because cattle in the UK are tested for bovine TB regularly then there would be confusion over whether the cow in front of you was positive for bovine TB or just presenting a positive result due to previously being vaccinated with the BCG vaccine. In that instance, do you wait for symptoms to appear? If they will at all? That risks the entire herd and farm of course.

When I looked this up right now there is a new test called the DIVA skin test which would be able to differentiate between a false positive due to a previous BCG vaccine and a positive due to infection with bovine TB. Currently, this DIVA skin test is not yet approved for the market (as far as I can see). Perhaps when it is, vaccination of cattle with the BCG vaccine will become a regular occurrence.

Additionally, in Geronimo's case as Siskin pointed out deer can catch bovine TB and how on earth would we vaccinate all of the local deer population?

Added in case anyone cares: https://tbhub.co.uk/resources/frequ...a-deployable-tuberculosis-vaccine-for-cattle/
This link is useful in regards to the question of why cattle in the UK are not vaccinated.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Isolette said:


> Same as in the foot and mouth . I HATE the UK and am closing down if this is the standard here.


The owner of this animal was given every chance to give him a peaceful end in familiar surroundings and chose not to.

Shame on us for what?

An animal infected with TB or Foot and Mouth has to be humanely destroyed to prevent spread of the disease.

What do you suggest?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Im not convinced they are telling the truth either tbh and i agree with him being destroyed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58490510


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws2 said:


> As I've said before "I believe they can vaccinate cattle against TB but they wont pay the cost!!"


You do know that it's the British Government, farmers and scientists that have been trialing the vaccine, putting money into it, and that the EU will not allow us to export our animals if they have been vaccinated?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Confusion about whether he had TB or not. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58490510
*A government examination on Geronimo the alpaca has found possible evidence of bovine tuberculosis (bTB), but supporters are disputing the results.*

Authorities took Geronimo from his farm near Bristol on 31 August and killed him after he twice tested positive for the disease.

Vets working with his owner have said there were no visible lesions of bTB.

But the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) said post-mortem tests showed TB-like lesions.

The animal's owner, Helen Macdonald, requested a copy of the post-mortem examination after the alpaca was removed from her farm in South Gloucestershire and culled.

Lawyers acting for the veterinary nurse said she had received a letter from the government legal department containing the preliminary findings.

These findings were then reviewed by veterinary surgeons supporting Ms Macdonald.
In a statement, the lawyers said the "preliminary gross post-mortem findings are negative for visible lesions typical of Bovine Tuberculosis".

"For clarity there are no white or cream caseous, enlarged abscesses typical for bTB in alpacas whether in the lungs, bronchial, mediastinal or retropharyngeal lymph nodes," it said.

It added that Ms Macdonald had formally requested the full findings of the post-mortem report along with all relevant documents.

"She has further requested that both fresh, frozen and formalin fixed tissue and fluid samples be preserved and provided to an independent expert to carry out further tests."
In a statement, the government chief veterinary officer Dr Christine Middlemiss said: "We have completed the initial post-mortem examination of Geronimo.

"A number of TB-like lesions were found and in line with standard practice these are now undergoing further investigation.

"These tests include the developing of bacteriological cultures from tissue samples which usually takes several months - we would expect to complete the full post-mortem and culture process by the end of the year."


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No confusion...a PME takes months.
Preliminary findings are just that...just a quick checklist before cultures and other tests are done. Although some information can be gained from a preliminary...the only way to know is the tests.
Once they have been completed the owner will get a copy of the FULL post mortem result.

The owner is grasping a straws, her lawyer needs a swift kick and the press are being their usual selves by stirring up the general public.


If it turns out that Geronimo didn't have Tb then it is very sad, and shows that we really need to sort the testing phase out...but where is all this public outcry when thousands of cattle are killed for the same reason?


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Well it turns out Geronimo didn't have Tb. How sad.. Who is doing these test.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rottieboys said:


> Well it turns out Geronimo didn't have Tb. How sad.. Who is doing these test.


Who on earth did the testing and they go it wrong twice, what the **** were they playing at. Poor Geronimo and his owner. Hope she sues them but it won't bring him back,


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottieboys said:


> Well it turns out Geronimo didn't have Tb. How sad.. Who is doing these test.


That isn't confirmed at the moment. The owner is claiming it but the chief veterinarian does not agree and wants further testing.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottieboys said:


> Well it turns out Geronimo didn't have Tb. How sad.. Who is doing these test.


Testing is still a work in progress.

There is no result yet so it cannot be said he did or did not have TB.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Testing is still a work in progress.
> 
> There is no result yet so it cannot be said he did or did not have TB.


 The papers has said that there is no sign of Tb . Yes, they are still testing and they will make sure something will turn up saying he did have it. I think that after 4 years he would be having some sort of signs by now.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2021...-positive-alpaca-initial-post-mortem-results/

*Chief Veterinary Officer Dr Christine Middlemiss said:*

We have completed the initial post-mortem examination of Geronimo.

"A number of TB-like lesions were found and in line with standard practice these are now undergoing further investigation.

"These tests include the developing of bacteriological cultures from tissue samples which usually takes several months - we would expect to complete the full post-mortem and culture process by the end of the year .


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

So the post mortem came up with nothing..Now they are going to do further investigation with a full post mortem. which expect to be completed by the end of the year so we would all forget about it. Yeah .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottieboys said:


> So the post mortem came up with nothing..Now they are going to do further investigation with a full post mortem. which expect to be completed by the end of the year so we would all forget about it. Yeah .


They found Lesions, how do you think they usually identify TB?

Lesions aren't conclusive, but they are the usual indicator if TB. It is perfectly normal to do further tests


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottieboys said:


> So the post mortem came up with nothing..Now they are going to do further investigation with a full post mortem. which expect to be completed by the end of the year so we would all forget about it. Yeah .


A preliminary PME is not confirmation of anything... the full PME has not been completed yet... until the FULL examination has been completed no one can say that Geronimo did or did not have Tb.

The preliminary examination HAS shown up some lesions.
A post mortem is not something that can be done in a few days.

Well done for falling for the media hype... journalists just print opinions without fact checking, you may want to find other places to find out the truth.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottieboys said:


> The papers has said that there is no sign of Tb . Yes, they are still testing and they will make sure something will turn up saying he did have it. I think that after 4 years he would be having some sort of signs by now.


The press will print whatever lures the gullible and keeps this story selling papers.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Well done for falling for the media hype... journalists just print opinions without fact checking, you may want to find other places to find out the truth.


The same can be be said for most articles in the MSM


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Well done for falling for the media hype... journalists just print opinions without fact checking, you may want to find other places to find out the truth.


It was on the BBC news at lunch time , I guess we cant trust them anymore.



StormyThai said:


> No confusion...a PME takes months.
> 
> If it turns out that Geronimo didn't have Tb then it is very sad, and shows that we really need to sort the testing phase out...but where is all this public outcry when thousands of cattle are killed for the same reason?


perhaps because not many people in the UK eat Alpacas where as they do eat cows and perhaps many of the TB cows slaughtered would be doomed anyway . At least they would not be killed by having their throat slit while conscious which many are. 

Do the farmers get compensation? I hope so.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> It was on the BBC news at lunch time , I guess we cant trust them anymore..


Not for a very long time.I don't think they fact check half their stories or what their employees are spouting as fact under their banner



kimthecat said:


> Do the farmers get compensation? I hope so.


Yes 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bovine-tb-historical-compensation-value-tables/july-2021


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Rafa said:


> The press will print whatever lures the gullible and keeps this story selling papers.





Rafa said:


> The press will print whatever lures the gullible and keeps this story selling papers.


 Don n't tell me you donn't read any papers/ on line news. Yes I might be gullible, but I want to know the truth. What is wrong with that.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottieboys said:


> Don n't tell me you donn't read any papers/ on line news. Yes I might be gullible, but I want to know the truth. What is wrong with that.


There are better places to get the truth than the British media....I've noticed that you have completely skipped over my posts that explains how these things work.
And no, I don't read any papers... especially not the red tops. Why would I want to waste time reading something that I know the author would not of checked any facts?

I'm now"out"
I'm finding this public uproar distasteful...


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I guess a lot depends on whether or not you believe DEFRA are being honest. It will be a PR (and possibly legal) shit storm if its found he wasnt infected after all. The NEED him to be infected.

This animal tested positive over 4 years ago, but the preliminary PM wasnt conclusive? In theory he should have been extremely ill and most likely dead at that stage.

Im not a fan of DEFRAS handling of TB and how they have refused to test any culled badgers to see if they are actually infected or not. You cant know if a scheme is correct when you dont bother to collect all the available data.

I agree with him being killed (its not just farmers, but rescues, sanctuary's, zoos etc that have to cull animals, and there cant be one rule for one, one rule for another) but im not sure we'll ever know the truth.

The PM should have been done independently to prevent this very situation.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

The problem is that, whatever the findings of the necropsy (postmortem generally refers to humans) the supporters of Geronimo's owner will only believe what they want to believe. Look at the statement from DEFRA that they did find TB-like lesions - this has been totally dismissed by many because 'they would say that'.
Unfortunately TB is also very slow-growing in culture so it will potentially take a couple of months to get any answers, further fuelling the conspiracy theories.

It may well turn out that Geromino did not have TB and that the tests gave false positives (although this is unlikely) but if you chose to keep livestock that are susceptible to bovine TB then you have to be prepared to follow the rules.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> This animal tested positive over 4 years ago, but the preliminary PM wasnt conclusive? In theory he should have been extremely ill and most likely dead at that stage.


Not necessarily, TB develops very slowly and it can take months or years to develop symptoms and the disease progress can be slow.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> There are better places to get the truth than the British media....I've noticed that you have completely skipped over my posts that explains how these things work.
> And no, I don't read any papers... especially not the red tops. Why would I want to waste time reading something that I know the author would not of checked any facts?
> ..


Where would you advise looking for info. I don't think Google is our friend. Most of the searches bring up links to the newspapers and the BBC news.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Just thinking of previous cases. Foot and Mouth , a lady had some pet goats and she moved them into her cottage but they still had to be put down. 
BSE , in the 80s. Loads of cattle slaughtered , one baby calf was found still alive next to his mum and he was saved. I cant remember his name.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Then there was foot and mouth and thousands of stock were shot to try and prevent the spread. Eventually it did but farmers all round the country last their flocks and herds some from bloodlines that stretched back for decades, it must have broken some of them. It came very close to the village, I had sheep at the time and was so scared they would end up being culled


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottieboys said:


> Don n't tell me you donn't read any papers/ on line news. Yes I might be gullible, but I want to know the truth. What is wrong with that.


I do not read any papers.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the truth, but the newspapers are not a reliable source for that.

They deal in sensationalism - it's what sells papers.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Rafa said:


> I do not read any papers.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the truth, but the newspapers are not a reliable source for that.
> 
> They deal in sensationalism - it's what sells papers.


I thought the Guardian was ok. So where do you get your info from ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

This seems to be ongoing.

Dr Iain McGill BSc(Hons) BVetMed MRCVS
@IainTime
*GERONIMO UPDATE* We've released the histopathology (microscopy) results. As we all knew, not a shred of evidence to suggest Geronimo had bovine TB. The first of many articles & more detail to come .

Defra had said 11 lesions found across the alpaca's body had signs of TB.

But the report says they were "atypical" and offered no guarantee of infection.

Officials at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs last night confirmed the results are under further investigation.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I have stayed away from commenting because I really don't understand the TB thing in the UK. 

I do understand being cautious about diseases that spread easily though. 
Here in the US we have rabies. You don't mess around with rabies, and if an animal is suspected of having rabies you shoot first and ask questions later. No, seriously, you shoot an animal acting weird, and have your local DNR officer come collect the body which is then sent off for testing. Usually racoons and cats. Sometimes it might be distemper and the animal is swaying from dehydration, but sometimes it's not. 

So I googled Geronimo. It seems he was a stud alpaca and tested positive the second he set foot on UK soil. At that point, the humane thing would have been to euthanize him then - before anyone got attached to him. Not to be cynical, but how much of this was driven by the potential income of studding him out? How this managed to drag on for four years doesn't make any sense to me. Could he not have been shipped back to New Zealand? How did he get here from NZ anyway, I thought NZ couldn't import cattle because they do have TB? 

I really feel like there is a lot more to this story that's not being shared because it goes against some agenda. What agenda I haven't figured out yet, but it seems to me like this was a simple case of trying to import an animal that didn't pass inspection and thinking rules don't apply because *reasons*


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Has anyone read the papers/ or on line news today. He never had TB after all. What a sad end for Geronimo.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Interestingly a cow was recently PTS that had tested positive a little while ago (couple of days) not a peep from those so outraged by alpaca...just tumble weed...where is all the fuss for the cow?
The owner of that cow faces losing her whole herd (they are pets) but no one seems to care about them!

@O2.0 there is issues with the test for Btb but there are issues with lots of different tests and just like rabies Btb is found by necropsy after death..

And again @rottieboys that is not what the actual report is saying at all...but ok!


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Am I reading this wrong from the Mail on line. It stated that Geronimo had not a shed of evidence he had bovine tuberculosis. Geronimo's owner Helen Macdonald released the full report of the post mortem carried out by the Department for Environment. She and the vets claimed it revealed all tests showed Geronimo was negative for the disease.So its only defra saying they are still investigating. I feel so sorry for this cow....I think perhaps the way they are testing needs looking at.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottieboys said:


> Am I reading this wrong from the Mail on line


Yes, stop reading the daily red tops to get factual articles. The full report hasn't been finished yet so how the owner has apparently released it is anyones guess 
Where is your disgust for the poor cow that was pts a few days ago?
Why not put your energy into campaigning to get the testing procedure more reliable? What about all the animals that are still killed due to swine flu or foot and mouth? Do they not matter enough?

Please don't think that I am having a go at you personally, I just don't get the outcry for this one particular animal but others don't matter.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Yes, stop reading the daily red tops to get factual articles. The full report hasn't been finished yet so how the owner has apparently released it is anyones guess
> Where is your disgust for the poor cow that was pts a few days ago?
> Why not put your energy into campaigning to get the testing procedure more reliable? What about all the animals that are still killed due to swine flu or foot and mouth? Do they not matter enough?
> 
> Please don't think that I am having a go at you personally, I just don't get the outcry for this one particular animal but others don't matter.


Where do you get factual articles ? I said I was sorry to hear about the pet cow... Any animal which are being killed upsets me, even the one in slaughterhouses.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When a disease such as TB is involved, there is no place for sentiment.

I echo the opinion that we don't see public outrage when a cow is put to sleep - only when it's something cute and fluffy.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rottieboys said:


> Where do you get factual articles ? I said I was sorry to hear about the pet cow... Any animal which are being killed upsets me, even the one in slaughterhouses.


I don't know if it'll contain anything as specific as Geranimo but fact checking sites are good for making sense of popular topics that get mangled by the media. Full Fact is very good in my opinion.
https://fullfact.org/

many papers, not all, are owned by Rupert Murdoch and in case it's of interest this documentary on their empire is fascinating and a good insight into bias. Personally I don't mind the Guardian sometimes though it can also wring it's hands so it speak but I believe it is still independent and was the only paper to risk uncovering Murdoch and his dirty work, making many of us more aware at the time
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000kxvz/the-rise-of-the-murdoch-dynasty-series-1-1-kingmaker


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottieboys said:


> Has anyone read the papers/ or on line news today. He never had TB after all. What a sad end for Geronimo.


See my post #54
This seems to be ongoing.

Dr Iain McGill BSc(Hons) BVetMed MRCVS
@IainTime
*GERONIMO UPDATE* We've released the histopathology (microscopy) results. As we all knew, not a shred of evidence to suggest Geronimo had bovine TB. The first of many articles & more detail to come .

Defra had said 11 lesions found across the alpaca's body had signs of TB.

But the report says they were "atypical" and offered no guarantee of infection.

Officials at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs last night confirmed the results are under further investigation.



rottieboys said:


> Where do you get factual articles ? I said I was sorry to hear about the pet cow... Any animal which are being killed upsets me, even the one in slaughterhouses.


I wish I knew. It seems to be a secret. Ive asked this twice in this thread and had no answer except for Mollys just now. .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Interestingly a cow was recently PTS that had tested positive a little while ago (couple of days) not a peep from those so outraged by alpaca...just tumble weed...where is all the fuss for the cow?
> The owner of that cow faces losing her whole herd (they are pets) but no one seems to care about them!


Where was it reported about the cow. ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Interestingly a cow was recently PTS that had tested positive a little while ago (couple of days) not a peep from those so outraged by alpaca...just tumble weed...where is all the fuss for the cow?
> The owner of that cow faces losing her whole herd (they are pets) but no one seems to care about them!


 I wouldn't believe everything you read in the newspapers . They're full of shite.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Farmers dread it when the time for TB testing comes round. If a cow tests positive then that’s it, it will be put down, no arguments, no saying how it’s a favourite or your youngest child’s pet. Farmers are often distraught by losing animals they have bred and raised and seen daily for years, some farmers don’t get over it and either give up or commit suicide, farming has one of the highest suicide rates. Yes there is compensation but it doesn’t make up for losing prized members of the herd and that fear that you will lose more next time they are tested
It’s not something that happens occasionally, 27,360 cows over 12 months up to the end of August were slaughtered in England alone. No one demonstrates for them


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I wouldn't believe everything you read in the newspapers


I don't read the newspapers


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> I don't read the newspapers


I'm not the only one then, I can't remember the last time a looked at a paper, it might have been on holiday in the South of France in 2009.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> I don't read the newspapers


Good for you . So where did you hear about the poor farmer ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm not the only one then, I can't remember the last time a looked at a paper, it might have been on holiday in the South of France in 2009.


I do sometimes if I have a hospital appointment and there's a wait or on the Tube . The Tube one is the Metro and its free !  
I haven't been watching the news on the telly lately , too upsetting ,
I get my news from the BBC red button and twitter and my neighbour. All reliable sources :Hilarious

Actually , Twitter *can *be a good source of information if you follow the right people for instance , I follow John Bradshaw , the dog and cat behaviourist and researcher and he posted the latest research about dog training methods which I then posted here.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Good for you . So where did you hear about the poor farmer ?


Does it matter?
Thousands of cows are killed after positive tests...as Siskin said over 27000 cows in one month and not a peep from the public.

I have said before that I research myself... so from the start it was obvious that things weren't right when the articles claimed that a necropsy for extensive testing that takes months was apparently completed in a matter of days...if the owner had of complied when the alpaca first tested positive instead of dragging their heels (farmers don't get that) then they would probably have the full results.
And if the alpaca did turn out to be negative THEN you take that information along with other reports of other animals that turned out negative to try to get a change in the system... what you don't do is a kick and stamp your feet until there is no choice.

No one knows what the full necropsy results are going to be yet.

I don't go to one source to fact check... some is personal knowledge, some is talking to people much more knowledgeable than myself, I read studies (mostly behind paywalls but if you email the scientists they are usually happy enough to provide their papers) but in this instance I grew up in, on and around working farms...I am pretty familiar with
Mostly I don't read news headlines, especially after many journalists have openly said that they don't fact check as it takes to much time...I don't use Twitter either.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> I do sometimes if I have a hospital appointment and there's a wait or on the Tube . The Tube one is the Metro and its free !
> I haven't been watching the news on the telly lately , too upsetting ,
> I get my news from the BBC red button and twitter and my neighbour. All reliable sources :Hilarious
> 
> Actually , Twitter *can *be a good source of information if you follow the right people for instance , I follow John Bradshaw , the dog and cat behaviourist and researcher and he posted the latest research about dog training methods which I then posted here.


I do sometimes watch the BBC news and Eruonews as for Social Media never touch it.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Does it matter?


It does in a way. If people are going to rant at others for reading papers and watching the news then why not help them out by suggesting where they *can* get trust worthy information from . Believing what strangers on forums and Facebook tell you isn't a lot different from believing what the press says.



> I don't go to one source to fact check... some is personal knowledge, some is talking to people much more knowledgeable than myself, I read studies (mostly behind paywalls but if you email the scientists they are usually happy enough to provide their papers) but in this instance I grew up in, on and around working farms...I am pretty familiar with
> Mostly I don't read news headlines, especially after many journalists have openly said that they don't fact check as it takes to much time...I don't use Twitter either


I read the articles from the Guardian . Also Google Scholar has lots of research papers. Unfortunately with the Search Engines now , they just seem to come up with articles from the Press, its hard to find unbiased info.



> Thousands of cows are killed after positive tests...as Siskin said over 27000 cows in one month and not a peep from the public.


I posted a response somewhere back in the thread about this . I will see if I can find it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

In fairness I've not "ranted" at all on this thread...just pointed out that the articles posted did not prove that the alpaca didn't have tb...which they don't.
I gave my opinion originally and that is all, no one else has been grilled about where they get there info and quite honestly everything I have said can be researched by talking to people that experience this daily - large animal vets and farmers.
Until the full necropsy report is finished (which won't be until the end of the year) no one can be sure.

I can't add anymore so I'll leave it there...If it does turn out that this case is indeed negative then maybe people will use the publicity to help push for change with the testing procedure - somehow I doubt it


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Holy thread resurrection Batman.....



> The Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA) has completed its culture testing work for the alpaca known as 'Geronimo', which tested positive for bovine tuberculosis (bTB) twice using highly specific tests.
> APHA has today confirmed that it was not possible to culture bacteria from tissue samples taken at post-mortem examination. This does not mean the animal was free of bTB infection because it had previously twice tested positive using highly specific, validated and reliable tests.


Now I'm not a scientist but, despite what they say, I'd hazard a guess that the reason they couldn't culture any bacteria is because..... he didn't have it!

I wonder how many poor farmers have lost livestock to the blind faith in a test that throws false positives?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/culture-results-for-geronimo-the-alpaca


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Blackadder said:


> Holy thread resurrection Batman.....
> 
> Now I'm not a scientist but, despite what they say, I'd hazard a guess that the reason they couldn't culture any bacteria is because..... he didn't have it!
> 
> ...


So he did n't have TB after all.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

a couple of reasons why people dont protest about cows etc , Im guessing ,

perhaps as its sadly a common event , it's not publicised and people don't know about it .

Those these are dairy cows , Its accepted that we eat cows and many cows are slaughtered anyway. Thousands are slaughtered
each month .

Whatever the ins and outs of this, if the owner really cared about him , she wouldn't have let it end like did. It was cruel. She could have avoided that debacle.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Whatever the ins and outs of this, if the owner really cared about him , she wouldn't have let it end like did. It was cruel. She could have avoided that debacle.


I agree...Geronimo must have been terrified with all those people and cameras around, she handled it very badly.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2021)

Poor fellow, yes, I read the same that he did not have TB. Newspapers do have their uses 
Much better than FB - as long as you understand that all news has a bias and read multiple sources. That's my view anyway.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

J. Dawson said:


> Poor fellow, yes, I read the same that he did not have TB. Newspapers do have their uses
> Much better than FB - as long as you understand that all news has a bias and read multiple sources. That's my view anyway.


I rarely see a newspaper I can't remember the last time I read one, it must have been years and years ago. I get most of my news off the TV not that you can believe everything they say.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It was on the BBC that the tests didnt show anything but it did say it was difficult to tell or something like that. You'd think in this day and age they could do better.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> It was on the BBC that the tests didnt show anything but it did say it was difficult to tell or something like that. You'd think in this day and age they could do better.


If it's "difficult to tell" during a post mortem & lab cultures then surely the accuracy of the test has to be questioned? If there is no sure way of confirming the test result then how can the Gov guarantee it's accuracy?

Just musing


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2021)

Happy Paws2 said:


> I rarely see a newspaper I can't remember the last time I read one, it must have been years and years ago. I get most of my news off the TV not that you can believe everything they say.


I tend to read papers online but multiple ones. OH watches more TV & radio news than I do and I usually hear the news, when he has it on. 
There are so many news sources and news today seem to be more opinion giving quite often than news telling. I feel many news outlets act as the editorial sections of a news paper in the past and the line between news and opinion gets blurry.
I was more commenting in regards to older posts in this thread where a poster did not want to tell their source of information. I thought that was interesting but they seemed anti newspaper.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

J. Dawson said:


> I was more commenting in regards to older posts in this thread where a poster did not want to tell their source of information


I was actually very clear where my information came from:



StormyThai said:


> I don't go to one source to fact check... some is personal knowledge, some is talking to people much more knowledgeable than myself, I read studies (mostly behind paywalls but if you email the scientists they are usually happy enough to provide their papers) but in this instance I grew up in, on and around working farms..


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