# Is it acceptable to breed for money?



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

After reading some of the threads and seeing some of the replies, I just wanted to pose the question, and hopefully get a debate (no mud wrestling please) with a few different sides of the argument. 

For me, I see three different types of breeder, although obviously there will always be a bit of grey area inbetween them. 

There's someone like myself, who will never make a penny out of breeding and doesn't hope to; that bit just doesn't factor into it. The only concern I have about money and breeding is that I will always have enough put by to ensure the health of my dogs.

Then there's the other end of the scale where you get people who obviously treat their dogs as cash 'cows', some do it with a degree of responsibility, using health tested dogs, and even keeping their dogs well, whereas others unfortunately don't; the commercial breeders or puppy farmers.

But there's a huge grey area inbetween, pretty much the pet or hobby breeders that sometimes get lumped in with the term 'back yard breeder'. They breed a few litters a year out of their dogs, some of them pedigree, some not, and even some of the fashionable cross breeds. Their dogs are usually loved as pets, and just earn their keep. I can't bring myself to condemn this type of breeder, even if I may not agree with it, as long as the dogs are well kept. 

There will be people I'm sure who will vehemently disagree with it, but I prefer to live with the freedom of choice. 

Anyone elses thoughts?


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

A breeder may make some money from breeding,in my eyes that is acceptable but breeding FOR money should not be the sole purpose of why the litter was bred.

In my opinion breeding should be done to improve the breed,only the best health tested dogs should be bred from.
I don't necessarily agree with just show dogs as some dogs are extremely well bred,solid both in body and mind yet detest the show ring but I think these dogs should be accessed by a breed specialist before been bred from.

As for your BYB I have no time for them whatsoever,they damage breeds,their sole purpose for breeding is cash motivated.They cut every possible corner there is to make a bit more money.They don't care where their pups end up,will not take any reponsibilty for them once they have left their care,hence the current rescue crisis.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

In my mind i dont think there is anything wrong with making some money from breeding, i am totaly against puppy farming have done a lot of demonstrating against it, but as long as the welfare of the dogs and pups concerned comes before money then i cant see anything wrong with it.


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

Breeding for improvement is a good thing and there will be people who have what some people consider a lot of litters but do all the right things and make an amount of money, after all they aren't having to buy all the things you need all the time but they are not breeding just for money, nor are making vast quantities of it.

Breeding on a very occasional basis when you want a puppy, you won't make money but hopefully have taken all the care that is required regarding the mating and working to improve the breed you own at the same time.

I am of the opinion that you should have buyers lined up for some if not all of the expected litter(s) that you are having before considering breeding.

Breeding just because you can and know that you will eventually sell your puppies without having spent any time or money on ensuring health and improvement of the breed and therefore having what is in effect a money making business is not right.


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## mypets (May 23, 2009)

I have no idea why you would do this thread!!!

Alot of people have different views of this and YES they can share their opinions BUT it always ends up in an arguement, (like the other thread)...

so why start it in the first place...and what a stupid question!!

people come on here for advice and help...but people from this forum take it further because the other person goes beyond what they think, and it isnt fair..YES sometimes you think it is wrong but leave it, just dont reply to them...

The thread about "2 girls due in 5 days" is getting so silly...what iv just seen about selling them for money has nothing to do with anyone else..
EVERYONE sales their pups/kitts for money of course they do...BUT if it was turned round the other way you wouldnt like it..

Alot of people do get upset on here and its wrong..I admit i will argue things if it seriously is wrong...but to argue the fact that she is crossing her dogs is so sad...At the end of the day its her choice..No one argues the fact that cats cross breed! its exactly the same...:cursing::cursing::cursing:


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

In a word.................NO!!!!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

& its a 'NO' from me too!!!!!!!!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

i dont understand this thread and feel its been put on because of another thread. quite sad really. this is an animal loving forum so i dont think anyone would do such a thing.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

crazycrest said:


> In a word.................NO!!!!!





noushka05 said:


> & its a 'NO' from me too!!!!!!!!


Agree its a NO from me too!!! Simple answer!!


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Not as the sole reason no. If they breed to improve the breed, health test do all the research etc and make some money as well then yes. Just for money with no consideration for the puppies no. Then again apparently you don't make much money if you do it responsibly.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

mypets said:


> I have no idea why you would do this thread!!!
> 
> Alot of people have different views of this and YES they can share their opinions BUT it always ends up in an arguement, (like the other thread)...
> 
> ...


The OP Did state a debate and no mud slinging and you are the one who is doing it!!!!!

A simple answer to this thread would be yes or no. My answer is NO


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> i dont understand this thread and feel its been put on because of another thread. quite sad really. this is an animal loving forum so i dont think anyone would do such a thing.


unfortunatly loads do, they dont pay out for health screening, dont keep puppys ,their sole reason is to profit from them i really dislike it when people exploit animals this way. Theres no wonder rescues are full to bursting.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, I can honestly say and hold my hands up, I'm not sure which thread has provoked such a response from a couple of people 

The one I was referring to having read was a reply on a thread posted by someone looking for advice about a chihuahua/crested cross, I haven't read any other threads in breeding (or much of anywhere really) as I haven't had time over the last couple of days, I certainly wasn't picking on any one individual on this forum, and thought I'd made that very clear in my opening sentence??

For those who have responded with a firm No, can I ask why? Sensible answers please as Im genuinely interested why. There are some breeders who believe that this kind of breeding, and I'm talking about those who breed health checked and 'responsibly', although they are pet breeders and have no interest in showing or working, that this provides a useful genetic 'back water', as it were, for the breed. Even in a breed as numerous as the Labrador you get a lot of pedigrees where the same dogs crop up time and time again, simply because they are the most popular (Kupros Master Mariner springs to mind). With everyone so intent on breeding out health defects it might be that we come to rely on having the extra 'breeding stock' out there, particularly with some of the breeds with very few numbers??

And can I just re-iterate, this is not a personal dig at any thread that others have posted. Thank you.


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## mypets (May 23, 2009)

clueless said:


> The OP Did state a debate and no mud slinging and you are the one who is doing it!!!!!
> 
> A simple answer to this thread would be yes or no. My answer is NO


no im not... we all no hows it gonna end up, someone says "yes" then they all gang up....so whats the point of this thread..


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

mypets said:


> no im not... we all no hows it gonna end up, someone says "yes" then they all gang up....so whats the point of this thread..


Well that seems to be your opinion and you are entitled to it


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## mypets (May 23, 2009)

clueless said:


> Well that seems to be your opinion and you are entitled to it


yes very true!!!!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

mypets said:


> yes very true!!!!


Exactly and others are also entitled to theirs. Have a Nice Day I am off to get ready for work.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

mypets said:


> no im not... we all no hows it gonna end up, someone says "yes" then they all gang up....so whats the point of this thread..


Ask the OP,I think that's been made clear,so do you have anything constructive to add or are you happy to instigate or look for an argument ?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, I can honestly say and hold my hands up, I'm not sure which thread has provoked such a response from a couple of people
> 
> The one I was referring to having read was a reply on a thread posted by someone looking for advice about a chihuahua/crested cross, I haven't read any other threads in breeding (or much of anywhere really) as I haven't had time over the last couple of days, I certainly wasn't picking on any one individual on this forum, and thought I'd made that very clear in my opening sentence??
> 
> ...


i doubt very much i'll ever breed again but if i did i would only ever do it for myself to keep a puppy/puppies for showing, i personally would never use a dog from a pet home who hadnt proved his quality in the ring on one of my bitches as i would always aim to improve on the dogs i have. Im pretty sure in my breed we wont improve the breed by using these 'pet breeders' dogs.

as i have said many times i dont believe in exploiting animals for money.


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## Missymoo (May 19, 2009)

I think as long as the animals are well looked after why not get something back in return?? :smilewinkgrin:


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## mypets (May 23, 2009)

clueless said:


> Exactly and others are also entitled to theirs. Have a Nice Day I am off to get ready for work.


didnt say they wasnt...bye bye


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## mypets (May 23, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Ask the OP,I think that's been made clear,so do you have anything constructive to add or are you happy to instigate or look for an argument ?


An arguement...i stated my thoughts just like everyone else and its you lot that took it further..LMAO...so you want the arguements...
i havent commented on anyones reply...i just asked whats the point of this thread which i might ad so have others...

so you can argue with each other now...and il just watch...:001_tt2:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I think the title is worded a bit wrong....

...noone will answer to this with an yes... 

out there are so many breeders who yes, try to improve the breed and yes, do show their dogs, and yes, some do all the health tests but then there are so many big kennels and so many of those accredidet breeders or showing breeders owning several bitches having more than one litter during the year and they often or i dare to say most of the time dont keep a pup, so what are their motivations to breed their litters???? (and those are those so often being admired by others and called responsible) .... noone in the dog world with a name would ever admit to breed for money...as simple as that    Too many rub their hands behind closed doors after having sold their pups. 

The breeders i contacted in the past (accredidet i must say) always sold their bitches for more as an example...why? I think this question answers itself 

Breeding makes u money (the first litter not as much as the following ones) .... it all comes down to what ur motivations to breed are....

And my opinion is ...those 100% responsible breeders are a very minority in the dog breeding world....sadly but very gladly that they excist ...


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

mypets said:


> An arguement...i stated my thoughts just like everyone else and its you lot that took it further..LMAO...so you want the arguements...
> i havent commented on anyones reply...i just asked whats the point of this thread which i might ad so have others...
> 
> so you can argue with each other now...and il just watch...:001_tt2:


This thread was actually going along quite smoothly until you gave your opinion,which had absolutely nothing to do with the original post.Instead you saw it as an attack on another member.
If you thought the thread was pointless why post on it ? 
Or was that to get a reaction ?

So what are your thoughts on the original post is it acceptable to breed for money ?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cant the arguements about who started what and when being solved by pm's pls


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Natik you plan to breed in the future,what is your motivation for doing so ?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You mean no one will answer with a 'yes' except for me, even though that's not what I want from breeding?  I agree you'll always make a bit of money on a litter at that time, but not a 'profit' so to speak, necessarily. Overall the cost of buying, health testing, owning a dog/bitch aren't recouped by having one or two litters out of a bitch, you're more likely to make a little more on a stud dog if you can get the work, but stud dogs are generally used because they are proven.

You will always get the good and bad in all walks of life, there are bound to be some show/working folk who breed that aren't as responsible as some of the better 'pet breeders'. Personally, I still think it's good that we do have the freedom of choice in this country, although I also wish that those choosing to breed, whether for pet, show or working, did so with a degree of knowledge and responsibility. It's a bit difficult to legislate against ignorance though.

My4pets, if you haven't already read what I've actually posted, let me make it clear, I haven't read, and really couldn't be less bothered, about the other post(s) right at this minute, they have nothing to do with why I asked this specific question


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> I think the title is worded a bit wrong....
> 
> ...noone will answer to this with an yes...
> 
> ...


I feel by reading alot of these posts that whatever the reason for breeding indirectly or directly benefits the breeder in some way either be it money, status, best in show ring etc, and i dont knock anyone for that as i said in a previous post, as long as the welfare of all dogs concerned is put first who are we to say anything about it.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Natik you plan to breed in the future,what is your motivation for doing so ?


Helping in improving the breed and keeping a pup


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I haven't read all of the replies.. I came to the last page to miss out the arguments or whatever they are.
I thinks it's wrong to have a litter ''to make money''. And also agree that many BYB's cut all the corners, do it as cheaply as posible ect.
This was the case with my litter- the guy who owned the mum- her mating was completely accidental, could have been avoided, could have been stopped. But as soon as he knew she was def pregnant, all he could see was £££. Even though I had told him how much everything cost- he knew people who were BYB's and thought he could just do like them. He was adament he could sell the puppies for £350 to 'people he knew' (junkies), because the mum was half staffy.

But when it came to it, he was cutting the corners so far there was nothng left.. tesco value dog food has to come out somewhere, and when he was in bed, it was all over his carpet and the dog was almost out the window.

Luckily I was there to save the day and take the poor dog home and give her the care she deserved. But when I homed the puppies? I made Half of what I spent. i spent all my partners money he saved up for his car, and the money he got from his dad for his old car. We went without so we could buy the puppies milk. We spent weeks after they left putting the house and garden right again, we nearly lost our deposit on the house we rent. WHY?? Because I spent the last 9 weeks making up for some idiot who though it would be a good way to make money!

If I ever have a litter again (I hope so) then it will be to improve the breed (GSD) and to keep a puppy.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You mean no one will answer with a 'yes' except for me, even though that's not what I want from breeding?  I agree you'll always make a bit of money on a litter at that time, but not a 'profit' so to speak, necessarily. Overall the cost of buying, health testing, owning a dog/bitch aren't recouped by having one or two litters out of a bitch, you're more likely to make a little more on a stud dog if you can get the work, but stud dogs are generally used because they are proven.


But the title states is it acceptable to "breed FOR money" and not "will u MAKE money" out of breeding ....


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## spiffy (Jun 30, 2009)

Missymoo said:


> I think as long as the animals are well looked after why not get something back in return?? :smilewinkgrin:


I agree with this. I don't think it is wrong to make a profit from breeding animals, as long as the animals are well cared by reputable breeders.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> But the title states is it acceptable to "breed FOR money" and not "will u MAKE money" out of breeding ....


Then YES it is acceptable if a breeder makes a profit, and i will say again if the welfare of all dogs concerned comes first and no short cuts to increase profits.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Then YES it is acceptable if a breeder makes a profit, and i will say again if the welfare of all dogs concerned comes first and no short cuts to increase profits.


so u think its acceptable when the breeders motivation to breed is to make some cash  because thats what the title asks for


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

No I don't think it is rght to breed just to make money. If I mak any money from the pups I breed it all goes back into my own dogs, showing them and any veterinary care they need.

I know someone who mated a bitch a 16 months old by the time she was 18 months she had a litter. The girl that owned her told people at shows the bitch was in seaon she must have had about 6 seasons in one year or never gone out of season. Then I had a phone call tellng me she had had a litter and they were being advertised on a hunting site several people recognised my breeding and informed me. Then at a show she again said the bitch was in season until I pointed out I knew she had got pups. She never kept a pup used a working bred dog that was over sized on a small 18" bitch then sold them saying the pups would not be more than 20" . That is breeding to make money. She did it as she thought she would make a profit. She also has JRT that always seemed to have a litter.

The person who bred my dogs often keeps 3/4 out of the litter she also will give a pup away to people she knows she gave us a good pup as a christmas present this year she was pick of the litter and was picked out by a champ show judge but they gave her to us.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Yes, as long as they do it responsibly. There are people who only breed pets, and only do it for extra money, but they still ensure that they do it with as much of a responsible attitude as someone who either works or shows their dogs. 

I'm not talking about people who don't look after their dogs, or don't think about the consequences of breeding, but bona fide responsible pet breeders.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> so u think its acceptable when the breeders motivation to breed is to make some cash  because thats what the title asks for


Hundreds and thousands of dogs will always be bred from whether people agree with it or not, and ime in 2 minds when i look at it one way, backstreet breeders and puppyfarmers definetely NOT!!! but someone who has 2 healthy dogs why not?

I do think with some people that this thread might have got to the agree to disagree stage which is a shame as we need to respect other people opinions and not get into heated arguments, ime certainly not.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Hundreds and thousands of dogs will always be bred from whether people agree with it or not, and ime in 2 minds when i look at it one way, backstreet breeders and puppyfarmers definetely NOT!!! but someone who has 2 healthy dogs why not?
> 
> I do think with some people that this thread might have got to the agree to disagree stage which is a shame as we need to respect other people opinions and not get into heated arguments, ime certainly not.


i understand what u mean now  ....


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i doubt very much i'll ever breed again but if i did i would only ever do it for myself to keep a puppy/puppies for showing, i personally would never use a dog from a pet home who hadnt proved his quality in the ring on one of my bitches as i would always aim to improve on the dogs i have. Im pretty sure in my breed we wont improve the breed by using these 'pet breeders' dogs.
> 
> as i have said many times i dont believe in exploiting animals for money.


Agree with this, not that i breed, but my next dog will be from parents who are proven in either showing or working, and good example of my breed.

I don't agree with people breeding to make money, there are far too many unwanted dogs in rescues that need homes


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok Sleeping Lion 

Most *responsible breeder's* endorse their pet quality puppies with at least the R endorsement, *not to be bred from*! It is these puppies that are sold as pets to Joe Public as just that *pets* & most decent breeder's contract's will state *if you bought your puppy as a pet then please have it neutered at an appropriate age*, the endorsement's will never be lifted!
What you are seeing here today & I include myself in this, are the responsible breeder's saying NO! There are many reason's these endorsement's are put on to puppies, people like to keep their lines close, inferior puppies in some way, something small to the dog as an adult maybe, but something that WE as breeder's do not want introducing back into lines at a later date, bad mouth's, hernia's any minor defect really! So what I am saying is....if you go to a breeder for a pet then respect it as such, had you informed a decent breeder that eventually you might like to take a litter from your dog/bitch then they would have tried to sway your decision of which puppy to choose & asked that you at least attend a few show's to see if puppy made the grade! So what we now see are puppies born from pet bred dog's, people cutting cost's & going to any old stud that happen's to be close & cheap, poor quality & temperament's in any offspring because of corner cutting & therefore more & more dogs/puppies ending up in rescue every year!
A very sad situation for those that try & breed responsibly & ethically with their dogs best interests at heart I think you'll agree!
I myself am an accredited breeder by choice, when it first came about it was a great idea, unfortunately there will alway's be some who don't follow rules & guidelines & eventually they will be outed from the scheme...it's a shame it all takes time, but hey ho...that's life!

So making money isn't really an option in the grand scheme of thing's for responsible breeder's who breed to keep & keep to show, it's their lifes hobby & dream's of breeding next year's Cruft's Best of Breed prevail


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for the detailed reply Crazycrest 

In some respects I think I've not explained the query clearly, but replies have tended to talk about those who do it for cash haven't/couldn't been responsible in one way or another. There are some pet breeders out there, who do make some money, probably not an awful lot, that are responsible in how they go about breeding. They health check, they use proven stud dogs, not just the one down the road, and they make sure they try and match up to the breed standard as best as they can. 

To be honest, I can't see what is wrong with that kind of breeding? The demand is obviously there for the pets they produce, it's the buyers that are in the wrong in my mind. For example the fashionable cross breeds, ok, so they were probably bred and marketed first, but in a lot of cases where people want a dog because of the name, surely that's because of buyer ignorance? I imagine there are very few people who set out thinking I want a specific cross of that dog and that dog, they probably hear a name, think it sounds cute, and then decide?? 

When it boils down to it, I'd prefer the animals in rescue came as first choice for most new dog owners, but unfortunately that isn't going to happen.


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply Crazycrest
> 
> In some respects I think I've not explained the query clearly, but replies have tended to talk about those who do it for cash haven't/couldn't been responsible in one way or another. There are some pet breeders out there, who do make some money, probably not an awful lot, that are responsible in how they go about breeding. They health check, they use proven stud dogs, not just the one down the road, and they make sure they try and match up to the breed standard as best as they can.


Can i just ask  just interested how do they try and match up the breed standard if pet breeders?


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply Crazycrest
> 
> In some respects I think I've not explained the query clearly, but replies have tended to talk about those who do it for cash haven't/couldn't been responsible in one way or another. There are some pet breeders out there, who do make some money, probably not an awful lot, that are responsible in how they go about breeding. They health check, they use proven stud dogs, not just the one down the road, and they make sure they try and match up to the breed standard as best as they can.
> 
> ...


I actually think supply out does demand,especially regarding my breed,a quick look through the ads online and in the papers tells you that.
As I said to my friend on the phone the other night,there are plenty of SBT's around,those dogs that do not conform in any way shape or form to the breed standard,those that were bred just because they could be bred from.

Very very few "pet" breeders breed responsibily in my opinion,why do we need to be breeding for the Pet Market anyway when dogs from good well thought out,careful considerate breeding will fullfill the same purpose ?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

I would like to meet a "responsible pet breeder" & maybe get an insight,
unfortunately it never seem's to be the case, maybe people's reaction's would change if it were. I doubt that will ever happen!

Do you actually know of a single pet breeder that you would say is responsible with regard to their dogs & welfare ???

You will alway's get people who want a puppy "NOW" & the silly/cute names
they come up with are not only a money maker but, make people think "oh i would like one of those they're different"! Not your average pedigree


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I actually think supply out does demand,especially regarding my breed,a quick look through the ads online and in the papers tells you that.
> As I said to my friend on the phone the other night,there are plenty of SBT's around,those dogs that do not conform in any way shape or form to the breed standard,those that were bred just because they could be bred from.
> 
> Very very few "pet" breeders breed responsibily in my opinion,why do we need to be breeding for the Pet Market anyway when dogs from good well thought out,careful considerate breeding will fullfill the same purpose ?


i couldnt agree more Sally x


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I actually think supply out does demand,especially regarding my breed,a quick look through the ads online and in the papers tells you that.
> As I said to my friend on the phone the other night,there are plenty of SBT's around,those dogs that do not conform in any way shape or form to the breed standard,those that were bred just because they could be bred from.
> 
> Very very few "pet" breeders breed responsibily in my opinion,why do we need to be breeding for the Pet Market anyway when dogs from good well thought out,careful considerate breeding will fullfill the same purpose ?


Great post Sal x


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

there are people which have a good quality dog, doing all the health tests and making sure they get their dog assessed by someone who knows the breed but are simply not into the showing world....this i would call a pet breeder too. I agree there arent many of this sort but there are some and they do it more responsibly than so many "non-pet breeders" do


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> there are people which have a good quality dog, doing all the health tests and making sure they get their dog assessed by someone who knows the breed but are simply not into the showing world....this i would call a pet breeder too. I agree there arent many of this sort but there are some and they do it more responsibly than so many "non-pet breeders" do


There may well be...but I have yet to meet one :smilewinkgrin:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> There may well be...but I have yet to meet one :smilewinkgrin:


u wont meet them at shows for sure


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> there are people which have a good quality dog, doing all the health tests and making sure they get their dog assessed by someone who knows the breed but are simply not into the showing world....this i would call a pet breeder too. I agree there arent many of this sort but there are some and they do it more responsibly than so many "non-pet breeders" do


Yes thats all fine but what are they achieving from the mating what are they breeding for? The answer has to be money i cant see any other reason for it!

I agree with breeding to try and better the breed and for work! But other than that i see no reason why people feel they need to have pups!

If some one buys a pet quality dog then it should stay as that!!

All just my views though ..


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Hundreds and thousands of dogs will always be bred from whether people agree with it or not, and ime in 2 minds when i look at it one way, backstreet breeders and puppyfarmers definetely NOT!!! but someone who has 2 healthy dogs why not?
> 
> 
> > Would that also count for two different breed dogs who were health tested and found to be perfect for there breed and were mated and hopefully not given a silly name or is it only ok for ped/pure breed dogs?
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes thats all fine but what are they achieving from the mating what are they breeding for? The answer has to be money i cant see any other reason for it!
> 
> I agree with breeding to try and better the breed and for work! But other than that i see no reason why people feel they need to have pups!
> 
> All just my views though ..


they maybe keep a pup from their litter and because their dog is of good example they help to expand the genetic pool of the breed and also help to improve the breed or maintain the breed standard...

dogs judged at shows are not always best examples to breed from but because they might have won a rosette some show people think they have to breed from them as they have a good quality dog ...


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> dogs judged at shows are not always best examples to breed from but because they might have won a rosette some show people think they have to breed from them as they have a good quality dog ...


The above I agree with,anyone who shows knows that you have to see past that and look for what and how the dog would fit in with your lines and compliment the bitch.
My bitches Sire has never been shown,yet has produced some excellent dogs,including my bitches Grandfather, our current breed CC Record Holder


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Natik said:


> they maybe keep a pup from their litter and because their dog is of good example they help to expand the genetic pool of the breed and also help to improve the breed or maintain the breed standard...
> 
> dogs judged at shows are not always best examples to breed from but because they might have won a rosette some show people think they have to breed from them as they have a good quality dog ...


Agree, I don't intend to breed from my boy (stud) as i am new to the breed, he's a great learning first show dog , but i personally wouldn't say he was good enough to breed from. Even though he is from good quality parents. It is easy to be blinkered


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Luvdogs said:


> Can i just ask  just interested how do they try and match up the breed standard if pet breeders?


It depends on your interpretation of the breed standard, which as a guide, a lot of dogs will match up to. The problem you hit is where people lack specific in depth knowledge on conformation, I'm certainly not an expert, and have asked for guidance with my girls from a few people.

There are, at least with Labs, a few things in the breed standard that couldn't possibly be tested or ascertained within the show ring. So with that in mind the responsible pet breeder is equally capable of breeding dogs that may be as close to the breed standard.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Daynna said:


> haeveymolly said:
> 
> 
> > Hundreds and thousands of dogs will always be bred from whether people agree with it or not, and ime in 2 minds when i look at it one way, backstreet breeders and puppyfarmers definetely NOT!!! but someone who has 2 healthy dogs why not?
> ...


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I agree with you you said it a better way lol you shouldnt go in with £££ in your eyes but you should hopefully make some back to put back in to the dogs and any future litters 

I dont think i would ever breed, one dont really have much of a clue only what ive read on here and secondly i dont think i would ever be able to give the puppies away lol 

How much does a first litter cost to raise it must be close to £2k with health tests??


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I have never got a dog from a breeder or met a breeder,can i ask "when you got your 1st ever dog did you get it with the aim to breed from it?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Daynna said:


> How much does a first litter cost to raise it must be close to £2k with health tests??


difficult question to answer . for instance stud fees in some breeds can be in excess of £800


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Daynna said:


> I agree with you you said it a better way lol you shouldnt go in with £££ in your eyes but you should hopefully make some back to put back in to the dogs and any future litters
> 
> I dont think i would ever breed, one dont really have much of a clue only what ive read on here and secondly i dont think i would ever be able to give the puppies away lol
> 
> How much does a first litter cost to raise it must be close to £2k with health tests??


my stud dog i imported him from France so that was a fortune in itself my bitches hips & eyes probably cost around £200 then she had to have an emergency ceasarian another small fortune  all the items needed for puppies from the whelping box,bedding all the 'just incase' bits & bobs, then the food,wormers etc & we only sold 1 puppy so were way wayout of pocket, but i never bred her to make money which is just aswell really!!:laugh:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> I have never got a dog from a breeder or met a breeder,can i ask "when you got your 1st ever dog did you get it with the aim to breed from it?


I had it in mind that if she met expectations then I would breed (all this with the knowledge of the breeder); however, after weighing up her health test results, and that she'd injured her knee, I decided to have her spayed. Tau is her half sister, with very good health test results, better than Indie's, so I have what I want from her to take forward. If I didn't have what I wanted with Tau, I'd have her spayed.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

dexter said:


> difficult question to answer . for instance stud fees in some breeds can be in excess of £800


Thanks so you could be looking at a few thousand then really



noushka05 said:


> my stud dog i imported him from France so that was a fortune in itself my bitches hips & eyes probably cost around £200 then she had to have an emergency ceasarian another small fortune  all the items needed for puppies from the whelping box,bedding all the 'just incase' bits & bobs, then the food,wormers etc & we only sold 1 puppy so were way wayout of pocket, but i never bred her to make money which is just aswell really!!:laugh:


Wow i can imagine it was alot and i know c-sections are alot of money aswell! Your dogs are stunning i can see why you have nearly all of them


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Daynna said:


> Thanks so you could be looking at a few thousand then really
> 
> Wow i can imagine it was alot and i know c-sections are alot of money aswell! Your dogs are stunning i can see why you have nearly all of them


thanx Daynna xx its just so hard to let them go


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Not as the sole reason no. If they breed to improve the breed, health test do all the research etc and make some money as well then yes. Just for money with no consideration for the puppies no. Then again apparently you don't make much money if you do it responsibly.


So true!you dont make money if you do it responsibly, I have only bred 4 litters in a total of 27yrs of owning Labs and then only to keep one for showing, imo theres enough dogs out there in rescue centres that need homes without breeding just for the sake of it.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I had it in mind that if she met expectations then I would breed (all this with the knowledge of the breeder); however, after weighing up her health test results, and that she'd injured her knee, I decided to have her spayed. Tau is her half sister, with very good health test results, better than Indie's, so I have what I want from her to take forward. If I didn't have what I wanted with Tau, I'd have her spayed.


Now that's responsible


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> So true!you dont make money if you do it responsibly, I have only bred 4 litters in a total of 27yrs of owning Labs and then only to keep one for showing, imo theres enough dogs out there in rescue centres that need homes without breeding just for the sake of it.


why no? of course u do...not a fortune but u do, or unless u sell ur pups very cheap or have a very small litter or have difficult circumstances during the birth etc


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> why no? of course u do...not a fortune but u do, or unless u sell ur pups very cheap or have a very small litter or have difficult circumstances during the birth etc


Exactly! no! after bringing up mother... health tests... hips/eyes/ etc... feeding of the mum, vets check ups....showing of the mum to prove she is of the quality to improve the breed, no there was no profit for me, and was never expected either!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Exactly! no! after bringing up mother... health tests... hips/eyes/ etc... feeding of the mum, vets check ups....showing of the mum to prove she is of the quality to improve the breed, no there was no profit for me, and was never expected either!


surely u dont include bringing up mother and feeding her as costs of breeding  wasnt she ur pet or was she born to be bred first and foremost


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Exactly! no! after bringing up mother... health tests... hips/eyes/ etc... feeding of the mum, vets check ups....showing of the mum to prove she is of the quality to improve the breed, no there was no profit for me, and was never expected either!


& i'll second that! even if my bitch hadnt needed a ceasarian i would still have been way out of pocket, but then i never bred to make money anyway.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> & i'll second that! even if my bitch hadnt needed a ceasarian i would still have been way out of pocket, but then i never bred to make money anyway.


u include bringing up mom and feeding her as costs of breeding too?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> u include bringing up mom and feeding her as costs of breeding too?


Yes...that's exactly when it start's!
The moment you part with your cash for your first brood bitch,
who, of course you have spent many hour's/week's/month's researching
& waiting for her to be born!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> Yes...that's exactly when it start's!
> The moment you part with your cash for your first brood bitch,
> who, of course you have spent many hour's/week's/month's researching
> & waiting for her to be born!!!


but when ur bitch is born u dont even know if she is suitable to breed so how can u involve this costs? What if she wouldnt turn out how expected...? Then u would consider it as wasted breeding cash?


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I had it in mind that if she met expectations then I would breed (all this with the knowledge of the breeder); however, after weighing up her health test results, and that she'd injured her knee, I decided to have her spayed. Tau is her half sister, with very good health test results, better than Indie's, so I have what I want from her to take forward. If I didn't have what I wanted with Tau, I'd have her spayed.


Thanks for your answer,all the dogs i have owned have been unwanted by other people,i owned a corgi we got her at 18months old,we were her 5th owners,she had been pushed from pillar to post,
I must admit i worry about people breeding litter after litter,but as i said i dont really know enough about it,just worry that more pups are being bought into this world,when you look at breed rescue sites so many dogs end up there for one reason or another.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> but when ur bitch is born u dont even know if she is suitable to breed so how can u involve this costs? What if she wouldnt turn out how expected...? Then u would consider it as wasted breeding cash?


No not wasted breeding cash....a pet!!!

First you research the lines you like by going to show's,
then you hopefully are accepted on to a waiting list, sometimes
you'll get just what you want & other times it's tough luck!!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> u include bringing up mom and feeding her as costs of breeding too?


no, i include choosing an excellent stud dog which cost me a fortune & then importing him ,health screening my bitch, plus everything needed for a whelping bitch & puppies,

my friend offered to give me one of her husky puppies if Luna's pregnancy didnt take, its not about money to people who are passionate about their breed, no expense is spared on producing quality puppies & no thought is given to financial gain.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> No not wasted breeding cash....a pet!!!
> 
> First you research the lines you like by going to show's,
> then you hopefully are accepted on to a waiting list, sometimes
> you'll get just what you want & other times it's tough luck!!!


well, i wouldnt buy from noone who doesnt see their breeding bitch as a loved pet first and foremost...or else for me its just a dog breeding business...these type usually will count the bringing up as hidden costs of breeding as they see their bitch as a breeding machine imo 
No way i would ever ever consider bringing up my bitch as breeding costs if i would breed from her.... i chose her and i bought her with the knowledge she might not be suitable and i brought her up as a loving pet first and foremost ....

..im speechless but then in the dog world nothing surprises me anymore


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> no, i include choosing an excellent stud dog which cost me a fortune & then importing him ,health screening my bitch, plus everything needed for a whelping bitch & puppies,
> 
> my friend offered to give me one of her husky puppies if Luna's pregnancy didnt take, its not about money to people who are passionate about their breed, no expense is spared on producing quality puppies & no thought is given to financial gain.


i thought u wouldnt 

but importing is an option and not very common as its pricy


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> well, i wouldnt buy from noone who doesnt see their breeding bitch as a loved pet first and foremost...or else for me its just a dog breeding business...these type usually will count the bringing up as hidden costs of breeding as they see their bitch as a breeding machine imo
> No way i would ever ever consider bringing up my bitch as breeding costs if i would breed from her.... i chose her and i bought her with the knowledge she might not be suitable and i brought her up as a loving pet first and foremost ....
> 
> ..im speechless but then in the dog world nothing surprises me anymore


Sorry Natik...you have taken this totally out of context hmy:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Before I pose another question, can I just say I'm really pleased with the debate that has gone on from those that have posted, thanks for your input, it has been nice to see different sides of the debate.

Ok, so if you produced an outstanding representative from either a show or working perspective, would you repeat the mating, even though you had no intention of keeping a pup for yourself?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

All my dogs are pets first & foremost, I also have more pet's
than show/breeding dogs & they are all treated exactly the same!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> Sorry Natik...you have taken this totally out of context hmy:


i dont know... did i  might have hmy: .... but i still wouldnt consider bringing up the bitch as breeding costs


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> All my dogs are pets first & foremost, I also have more pet's
> than show/breeding dogs & they are all treated exactly the same!


so why do u considere the bringing up of ur breeding bitches as breeding costs then when they are ur pets first and foremost?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Before I pose another question, can I just say I'm really pleased with the debate that has gone on from those that have posted, thanks for your input, it has been nice to see different sides of the debate.
> 
> Ok, so if you produced an outstanding representative from either a show or working perspective, would you repeat the mating, even though you had no intention of keeping a pup for yourself?


Yes, but only if the litter was booked as far as it can be way before
mating the pair & the pups were booked by people in the breed that 
also show or work!
I can't see me breeding a litter without wanting to keep one though!


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> so why do u considere the bringing up of ur breeding bitches as breeding costs then when they are ur pets first and foremost?


Not so much the feeding, more the health test's, sorry if 
i caused confusion there, that was not what I meant!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

what happens to pups that can not be sold ,and the bitches when they are no good for breeding ? i have seen bitches for rehoming on rescue sites that have been handed over when they have come to the end of their breeding life,i really cant imagine getting a dog/bitch then just dumping it in a rescue because it cant make money.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Before I pose another question, can I just say I'm really pleased with the debate that has gone on from those that have posted, thanks for your input, it has been nice to see different sides of the debate.
> 
> Ok, so if you produced an outstanding representative from either a show or working perspective, would you repeat the mating, even though you had no intention of keeping a pup for yourself?


well i personally wouldnt no


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

crazycrest said:


> Not so much the feeding, more the health test's, sorry if
> i caused confusion there, that was not what I meant!


no worries  health tests of course, as thats an important part of breeding :thumbup: sorry for being a pain :blushing: haha


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, i wouldnt buy from noone who doesnt see their breeding bitch as a loved pet first and foremost...or else for me its just a dog breeding business...these type usually will count the bringing up as hidden costs of breeding as they see their bitch as a breeding machine imo
> No way i would ever ever consider bringing up my bitch as breeding costs if i would breed from her.... i chose her and i bought her with the knowledge she might not be suitable and i brought her up as a loving pet first and foremost ....
> 
> ..im speechless but then in the dog world nothing surprises me anymore


Of course they are firstly and foremost pets! I didnt know any of mine would be brood bithches when I bought them, I bought them to show firstly and when they did well and passed their health tests I had one litter off each of them to try and improve the breed! all my four bitches that have had a litter have had only 1 litter(dont think that is excessive) and I have kept one of each litter and may i add non of the offspring have been bred from because I have now retired from showing,so wont ever be breeding again.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Natik said:


> no worries  health tests of course, as thats an important part of breeding :thumbup: sorry for being a pain :blushing: haha


No it may have been my fault, sorry that's what you get
for being in & out of different thread's lol!


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## kiera09 (May 19, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> what happens to pups that can not be sold ,and the bitches when they are no good for breeding ? i have seen bitches for rehoming on rescue sites that have been handed over when they have come to the end of their breeding life,i really cant imagine getting a dog/bitch then just dumping it in a rescue because it cant make money.


This is a comman problem  I dnt know how people do it!:cursing: xx


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> what happens to pups that can not be sold ,and the bitches when they are no good for breeding ? i have seen bitches for rehoming on rescue sites that have been handed over when they have come to the end of their breeding life,i really cant imagine getting a dog/bitch then just dumping it in a rescue because it cant make money.


I have a bitch here that I planned on breeding from,all of our plans went pear shaped last year and she can't be bred from.
She was brought as a pet first and foremost then hopefully she would have been our foundation bitch,this wasn't mean't to be and she will live out the rest of her life here with us as a pet,a bloomin expensive one too!

Some breeders do rehome older bitches I personally think this is wrong and would never do it.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

wow 3 posts at same time ,this is a busy thread  i am finding it interesting to see everyones points of view


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> what happens to pups that can not be sold ,and the bitches when they are no good for breeding ? i have seen bitches for rehoming on rescue sites that have been handed over when they have come to the end of their breeding life,i really cant imagine getting a dog/bitch then just dumping it in a rescue because it cant make money.


From what ive seen thats the BYB and puppy farms, once the cash cow has stopped they get rid, i think they can do it as they only see £££ not the actual animal if you know what i mean. Some of the states the ex breeders come in to rescue is horrible and heartbreaking


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hazel pritchard said:


> what happens to pups that can not be sold ,and the bitches when they are no good for breeding ? i have seen bitches for rehoming on rescue sites that have been handed over when they have come to the end of their breeding life,i really cant imagine getting a dog/bitch then just dumping it in a rescue because it cant make money.


good breeders usually have waiting lists for their puppies but if they arnt sold they would keep them i know i would, i would never part with any of my dogs they are part of the family, i dont really agree with breeders passing them on once theyve lost their usefulness.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

My corgi came from a puppy farm ,we got her at 18months old and were her 5th owners,she stayed with us untill she was 16yrs old then sadly went to rainbow bridge,after having her 2 wks we took her to be spayed,where the vet found out during op she had a blood disorder and nearly bled to death ,he operated for 5 hrs to keep her alive,he wanted to know her history to stop anymore breeding from this line,but we had no history ,it scares me to think how many litters her mum had with this disorder and how many pups had it.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> unfortunatly loads do, they dont pay out for health screening, dont keep puppys ,their sole reason is to profit from them i really dislike it when people exploit animals this way. Theres no wonder rescues are full to bursting.


yeah i get your point but some breeders may also breed from too many animals rather then say each breeder has 2 girls each only then they all communicate and share lines. Just my opinion.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> yeah i get your point but some breeders may also breed from too many animals rather then say each breeder has 2 girls each only then they all communicate and share lines. Just my opinion.


sorry im not sure what you mean


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> sorry im not sure what you mean


I just mean some breeders may breed from too many girls some breeders in my opinion do and sometimes they're all together its not a dig at anyone its just how i feel


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Another question why are so many what i call crossbreeds sold at such high price,ie labradoodles,and other pedigree breeds that have crossed with another? years ago they were just known as crossbreeds but now fetch high prices,is it just fashion?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

hazel pritchard said:


> Another question why are so many what i call crossbreeds sold at such high price,ie labradoodles,and other pedigree breeds that have crossed with another? years ago they were just known as crossbreeds but now fetch high prices,is it just fashion?


alot of things have gone up in price now i remember when hamsters where £ now they are £7 50 in the space of 8 year. People are willing to pay it people will charge it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> I just mean some breeders may breed from too many girls some breeders in my opinion do and sometimes they're all together its not a dig at anyone its just how i feel


well i dont agree with them either


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

hazel pritchard said:


> Another question why are so many what i call crossbreeds sold at such high price,ie labradoodles,and other pedigree breeds that have crossed with another? years ago they were just known as crossbreeds but now fetch high prices,is it just fashion?


because some breeders of crossbreeds do health tests and do evereything in the best interest of mum and pups during whelping just like pedigree breeders do and some do it to earn more cash....and some buyers pay this price because they believe the dog is worth it


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Tis a fashion! and a very expensive and very stupid fashion, theres enough breeds out there without crossing them!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Tis a fashion! and a very expensive and very stupid fashion, theres enough breeds out there without crossing them!


crossbreeding exist since a very very very long time hence thats how we have our purebreds now...its not a fashion. The names are a fashion, but not the crossbreedin itself


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Natik said:


> crossbreeding exist since a very very very long time hence thats how we have our purebreds now...its not a fashion. The names are a fashion, but not the crossbreedin itself


i suppose thats the best way to look at it all breeds started like this really


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> crossbreeding exist since a very very very long time hence thats how we have our purebreds now...its not a fashion. The names are a fashion, but not the crossbreedin itself


Yeah I know most breeds are from crosses, but what Im trying to say is do we need more!?


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Yeah I know most breeds are from crosses, but what Im trying to say is do we need more!?


No, we certainly don't need any more IMO, a lot of our
native breed's are dying out now because of this very reason!


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

crazycrest said:


> No, we certainly don't need any more IMO, a lot of our
> native breed's are dying out now because of this very reason!


Here Here!! too much of this x thing going on lets just improve on what we got!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Yeah I know most breeds are from crosses, but what Im trying to say is do we need more!?


well, the earth keeps turning and so does evolution keeps continuing and if we would think that way we wouldnt have the breeds we have now and love 

There is no need for so many purebreds anymore so why continuing breeding them?

As long the bred pups are bred responsibly and as long the mix isnt anything too ridiculous and as long they all have loving homes...then why not....

(and its not the responsible breeders who would take their pups back adding to the rescue incase this arguement will come up to the why not question  )


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Here Here!! too much of this x thing going on lets just improve on what we got!


improve something we dont need ?  most pedigrees dont have a purpose anyome ....


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## bassetsandbeyond (Jun 21, 2009)

crazycrest said:


> No, we certainly don't need any more IMO, a lot of our
> native breed's are dying out now because of this very reason!


i agree too.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik, I like your way of thinking  as Labs are one of the breeds most worked, I think we should concentrate on them 

Sally Ann, I have to disagree with rehoming ex-breeding bitches. I've seen it done a few times where the needs of the bitch is put first, and it has worked out in their best interest, not everyone 'dumps' their breeding stock, some do what's best for them regardless.

Thanks everyone for the input, been an interesting read.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> improve something we dont need ?  most pedigrees dont have a purpose anyome ....


Errr sorry Labs are a gungog/ guide dog/ sniffer dog/ rescue dog,, etc etc! they have no use then!?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Errr sorry Labs are a gungog/ guide dog/ sniffer dog/ rescue dog,, etc etc! they have no use then!?


mind the word *most* in my post... not once i used the word labs today  I was referring to those breeds with no use anymore (and labs dont count into it just like other working breeds dont )


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> mind the word *most* in my post... not once i used the word labs today  I was referring to those breeds with no use anymore (and labs dont count into it just like other working breeds dont )


Didnt say you used the word Lab, am speaking from my point of view with my breed being them,
why dont Labs count then they are pure bred breed? and arent a "working" breed, sorry you probably know that its just the way its worded:001_tt2:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Didnt say you used the word Lab, am speaking from my point of view with my breed being them,
> why dont Labs count then they are pure bred breed? and arent a "working" breed, sorry you probably know that its just the way its worded:001_tt2:


Labs are still being actively used where so many other purebred dogs have no use these days anymore, the worked they used to carry out is not needed anymore .... those i am talking about 

People say there is no need for some crosses...on the other side there is no need for so many (not all!) pedigrees either...thats what i meant :wink5:


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> Labs are still being actively used where so many other purebred dogs have no use these days anymore, the worked they used to carry out is not needed anymore .... those i am talking about
> 
> People say there is no need for some crosses...on the other side there is no need for so many (not all!) pedigrees either...thats what i meant :wink5:


True! this could go on and on lol. no offence intended. we all have our views on breeding etc, but non of us are going to change whats going on out there, lets just look after what we have and be thankfull that we love them!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

hazel pritchard said:


> Another question why are so many what i call crossbreeds sold at such high price,ie labradoodles,and other pedigree breeds that have crossed with another? years ago they were just known as crossbreeds but now fetch high prices,is it just fashion?


cos there's always a gullible person who'll pay!!!


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Really enjoyed reading everyones views in this thread  ........really interesting.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Natik, I like your way of thinking  as Labs are one of the breeds most worked, I think we should concentrate on them
> 
> Sally Ann, I have to disagree with rehoming ex-breeding bitches. I've seen it done a few times where the needs of the bitch is put first, and it has worked out in their best interest, not everyone 'dumps' their breeding stock, some do what's best for them regardless.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the input, been an interesting read.


I've seen people rehome breeding bitches too,whether or not it's done in the best interest of the bitch is questionable.The majority of the time I would say it's done to make room for another puppy or breed bitch.

After our bitch was spayed we had an offer from a good friend of our's who said he would give her a good home and look after her just as a pet,needless to say it wasn't even a consideration for us.She came to us as an 8 week old puppy as a pet first and foremost,sadly we can't breed from her,but she is not going anywhere.She is part of our family.

I don't believe in rehoming older bitches which have come to the end of their breeding life so you can make room for another and personally I couldn't do it.


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

I don't know how anyone one could do that really, I wouldn't even consider doing it with my dogs. It makes it sound like a business not a much loved pet.
Though i know it goes on.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I don't believe in rehoming older bitches which have come to the end of their breeding life so you can make room for another and personally I couldn't do it.


me neither. mine are spayed and here to stay........................


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've seen it happen a few times, where a bitch has been rehomed for good reason, and actually the home they've gone on to has been the best option for the bitch. 

It's easy to say 'I wouldn't do it', but if ever you needed to rehome a dog for whatever reason, it's not an easy decision to make, and quite hard admitting you can't provide what's best for them. In some instances it is the better and more responsible decision, and not an easy one for those who make it. It's not necessarily always a case of moving a bitch to make room, dogs are moved on in the show world and working world a lot more frequently than in the pet world, sometimes for very good reason, not all dogs are suited to where they end up.

I'll always put the best interest of my dogs first, if that did mean I ever had to rehome them at any point for whatever reason, I hope I'd make the best choice for them (and besides, I know their breeder would take them back without a heart beat's hesitation  ).


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I know someone who recently bought a cocker pup,they had researched this breed and contacted a number of breeders about having a pup,they now have a healty happy pup but what upset me was this person told me the mother of their pup had had 3 litters over a number of years ,then the owner rehomes her brood bitch,she does this with any brood bitch she has ,to me this is just having a £ machine and get rid of it when its past its use by date,
I know some dogs have to rehomed(in the real world as i call it) i have 2 dogs that were unwanted by others,but i really cant understand people who use their dogs just to make money then get rid.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

I made money with my last litter but not much people forget the costs that go in to a litter
health checks before breeding
stud fee
scans
worming
vet fee
kc reg
puppy packs
vet checks
extra food ect the list does go on

i also did not make any money on her first litter but i did get one lovely dog so yes it was worth it

i dont have a litter very often and i always try my best to produce clear healthy pup i also will admit i do enjoy every bit of it


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've seen it happen a few times, where a bitch has been rehomed for good reason, and actually the home they've gone on to has been the best option for the bitch.
> 
> It's easy to say 'I wouldn't do it', but if ever you needed to rehome a dog for whatever reason, it's not an easy decision to make, and quite hard admitting you can't provide what's best for them. In some instances it is the better and more responsible decision, and not an easy one for those who make it. It's not necessarily always a case of moving a bitch to make room, dogs are moved on in the show world and working world a lot more frequently than in the pet world, sometimes for very good reason, not all dogs are suited to where they end up.
> 
> I'll always put the best interest of my dogs first, if that did mean I ever had to rehome them at any point for whatever reason, I hope I'd make the best choice for them (and besides, I know their breeder would take them back without a heart beat's hesitation  ).


i seriously dont understand why a breeder would considere rehoming an ex-breeding bitch or a bitch which is unsuitable for breeding as the best choice.... and i dont mean the obvious reasons for rehoming like not being able to feed or look after the dog etc

I would understand it if the breeder sees him/herself as a breeding business replacing the stock or one of those show people who replace the dog as it doesnt do well in the ring  But those people imo dont bond with their dogs and dont see them as loving pets first and foremost...

But what reasons would have any other breeder have? Surely if other dogs can be looked after with care or any new ones brought in why couldnt the ex breeding bitch? Im kind of lost there :blushing:


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i seriously dont understand why a breeder would considere rehoming an ex-breeding bitch or a bitch which is unsuitable for breeding as the best choice.... and i dont mean the obvious reasons for rehoming like not being able to feed or look after the dog etc
> 
> I would understand it if the breeder sees him/herself as a breeding business replacing the stock or one of those show people who replace the dog as it doesnt do well in the ring  But those people imo dont bond with their dogs and dont see them as loving pets first and foremost...
> 
> But what reasons would have any other breeder have? Surely if other dogs can be looked after with care or any new ones brought in why couldnt the ex breeding bitch? Im kind of lost there :blushing:


Well, i can only answer this from what i have been told. I have pugs and labs and within those breeds there are people who breed on a very large scale and, as such, once they have bred from and shown their bitches they very often will "pet home" them. Generally rehoming older breeding dogs is not done with a small time breeder 

I personally think that it is definately the right decision for these dogs. The dogs whilst with the breeder have very good care - the best food, exercise, vet treatment etc etc so they are NOT at a puppy farm, they are very well looked after. But one thing they do lack is one-on-one attention. Now, would you honestly say its best for the dog to stay with the breeder for the rest of its life, or to be spayed/neutered and placed in a pet home with a family where it will get plenty of one-on-one attention. IMO the breeder is doing the best thing for the dog letting it go to a pet home.

I dont breed on that scale, we have maybe a litter or two a year as and when we want a pup to show. So we keep all the "oldies"  But, putting myself in the position some of these breeders are in, maybe having 40+ dogs, i know what i'd do.

I think a lot of people forget that the breeders who produced the best show dogs, the crufts winning dogs and the ones that are in the lines of your lovely pet very often breed on a very large scale. It was even more common 50 years ago. I was at a judging seminar last year when they were discussing it, and one of the speakers said that due to the fact that many of these large scale breeders have given up, and others havent started to take over, the quality of dogs in the UK is falling. I dont know about that myself... But that was a well respected judge saying that. Certainly if you go to America dog breeding for the show ring in particular is done as a business. NOT like a puppy farm (you can tell looking at a show dog that they have the best food and exercise) but still what a lot of people do not agree with....

As for the topic title... No, i think you should breed only to improve and further the breed and you should be breeding each litter with a specific aim in mind of what you want to produce. A good breeder spends a long time researching lines and matings before breeding, and a lot of money on health testing and looking after mum and pups. That said though, i see no problem in people making some money from breeding. I dont think a lot of people realise the time and money that goes into producing a good litter


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Well, i can only answer this from what i have been told. I have pugs and labs and within those breeds there are people who breed on a very large scale and, as such, once they have bred from and shown their bitches they very often will "pet home" them. Generally rehoming older breeding dogs is not done with a small time breeder
> 
> I personally think that it is definately the right decision for these dogs. The dogs whilst with the breeder have very good care - the best food, exercise, vet treatment etc etc so they are NOT at a puppy farm, they are very well looked after. But one thing they do lack is one-on-one attention. Now, would you honestly say its best for the dog to stay with the breeder for the rest of its life, or to be spayed/neutered and placed in a pet home with a family where it will get plenty of one-on-one attention. IMO the breeder is doing the best thing for the dog letting it go to a pet home.
> 
> ...


imo thats wrong in so many bits....the breeder doesnt act in the best interest of the dog, the breeder acts in the best interest of its breeding business. 
If a breeder doesnt have the time to give the dog one on one time then they shouldnt own so many dogs in first place and so the dogs dont get the best of treatment like u say as this is a very important part in dog ownership. As simple as that. In my eyes its a puppyfarmer, and that dogs are produced winning crufts doesnt make them any better from those which chuck out other pups. Its not about rosettes, its about the dogs. And breeding on such a large scale i class as irresponsible as well.....

Dogs are not replaceable, they are living creatures and humans should love them and not get rid off them because they have served their duty and claiming its the best choice. Probably it is for the dog and those breeders shouldnt own any dogs at all as simply they dont treat them like loving animals, more like money making machines.... or else i dont see why someone would see a need to breed in such a large scale like some kennels do and replace the used stock with young and fresh ones to keep the business running


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Well, i can only answer this from what i have been told. I have pugs and labs and within those breeds there are people who breed on a very large scale and, as such, once they have bred from and shown their bitches they very often will "pet home" them. Generally rehoming older breeding dogs is not done with a small time breeder
> 
> I personally think that it is definately the right decision for these dogs. The dogs whilst with the breeder have very good care - the best food, exercise, vet treatment etc etc so they are NOT at a puppy farm, they are very well looked after. But one thing they do lack is one-on-one attention. Now, would you honestly say its best for the dog to stay with the breeder for the rest of its life, or to be spayed/neutered and placed in a pet home with a family where it will get plenty of one-on-one attention. IMO the breeder is doing the best thing for the dog letting it go to a pet home.
> 
> ...


I think it is disgusting
They breed them to death then get rid when they have made their money:cursing:
I breed but all my dogs grow old with me as they are part of the family, im sorry but i feel a person that treats dogs like this needs should not breed


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Well, i dont think i said anywhere that they "breed them to death" ??? The breeders i have spoken to about this (ie asked why they do not keep their breeding bitches) have 2, maybe 3 litters from a bitch.

Im not saying i agree with it btw. Just stating the facts. I personally would not want more dogs that i could give 1 on 1 attention to. But that is how dog breeding is and was done in many cases, whether people like it or not. And whatever you think of that, im sure you will both agree that in that situation "pet homing" the older dogs is in the dogs best interest


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> But what reasons would have any other breeder have? Surely if other dogs can be looked after with care or any new ones brought in why couldnt the ex breeding bitch? Im kind of lost there


Because there is usually a financial and practical limit on the number of dogs any one person can keep. Very few people have enough money or a big enough house or land in which to keep endless dogs.

I can only assume from your posts that you think the only people that should breed are those that keep their dogs as pets (please correct me if I'm wrong). IMO purely pet owners are usually not a good idea. They may well be well intentioned and love their pets, they may even do health test, but they do not have the experience to impartially assess their own pet or the training experience and dog knowledge to be a back up for the new puppy owners. How many dog owners breed from their first or second pet dog.... they have house trained one puppy, trained one puppy generally, maybe two, but all dogs are different and they really cannot gain the experience and knowledge to support new owners having owned just one dog as a pet.

IMO lifetime back up is just as important as the actual breeding of dogs. It's the ones that have this lifetime backup that DON'T end up in rescue.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Because there is usually a financial and practical limit on the number of dogs any one person can keep. Very few people have enough money or a big enough house or land in which to keep endless dogs.
> 
> I can only assume from your posts that you think the only people that should breed are those that keep their dogs as pets (please correct me if I'm wrong). IMO purely pet owners are usually not a good idea. They may well be well intentioned and love their pets, they may even do health test, but they do not have the experience to impartially assess their own pet or the training experience and dog knowledge to be a back up for the new puppy owners. How many dog owners breed from their first or second pet dog.... they have house trained one puppy, trained one puppy generally, maybe two, but all dogs are different and they really cannot gain the experience and knowledge to support new owners having owned just one dog as a pet.
> 
> IMO lifetime back up is just as important as the actual breeding of dogs. It's the ones that have this lifetime backup that DON'T end up in rescue.


i mean the dogs should be part of the family .... and being loved pets first and foremost.

If the breeder doesnt have the space, time and money then maybe he/she is not suitable for breeding....if the finances dont allow keeping a ex breeding bitch what would this person do if complication during birth would arise which so often are very expensive...?


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i mean the dogs should be part of the family .... and being loved pets first and foremost.
> 
> If the breeder doesnt have the space, time and money then maybe he/she is not suitable for breeding....if the finances dont allow keeping a ex breeding bitch *what would this person do if complication during birth would arise which so often are very expensive...?*


Just to cover that bit, the Kennel Club now offer fantastic Breeder Insurance covering everything from fertility tests and treatment, to caesarians! We have it for Gracie who has just had a litter incase of any complications and its great to know you dont have to worry about things like that 

I also agree with Dundee that in most cases the average pet owner is not the best person to be breeding. Many would have no idea where to start with health testing or whelping a litter, nevermind picking the most suitable stud.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i mean the dogs should be part of the family .... and being loved pets first and foremost.


In other words the only people who should be breeding are pet owners 



> If the breeder doesnt have the space, time and money then maybe he/she is not suitable for breeding....if the finances dont allow keeping a ex breeding bitch what would this person do if complication during birth would arise which so often are very expensive...?


Wow, well I don't know many people that can afford a house large enough to keep more than few dogs at any one time. This would exclude most people except the average pet owner.

What about people that kennel their dogs.... do you think that's wrong?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Natik said:
> 
> 
> > i mean the dogs should be part of the family .... and being loved pets first and foremost.
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> In other words the only people who should be breeding are pet owners
> 
> *I think u know exact what i mean... its a word battle. Im not talking about the average pet breeder.*
> 
> ...


so the average pet owners have usually more space and larger houses than breeders have


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> Jess2308 said:
> 
> 
> > i never once mentioned the average pet owner.....
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> I never said you did, i was picking up on what Dundee mentioned which is that the implication from what you have said so far is that you only believe pet owners should breed. You have yet to respond to that so i was only going on Dundee's post for that
> 
> With all due respect, and not knowing you in any way, i dont even know if you do breed... But i highly doubt that if you are a breeder, *you are in any way producing the quality of dogs as those breeders who make producing top quality dogs* their way of life  So I wouldnt expect you to replace your bitch as you are not breeding in that way.


wow...here here....someone can look behind the computer screen! I wished i would have those powers  I also find this as a very nasty, sweeping and belittleing comment from u!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i for one would never ever think of replacing my bitch for new stock as this already sounds so wrong in so many ways and so unethical... i think its disgusting
> 
> But like i said alot of dog breeding businesses see the cash and rosettes in their eyes and not the dogs ....


There may be reasons for rehoming other than money, and while many breeders adore their dogs, they can see the overall picture more clearly and sometimes see that it may be in the best interests of the bitch to be in a home. You can't generalise about this as it is so different from breeder to breeder. From the puppy farmer that drops the ex breeding bitch off at rescue (or worse) and the pet owner that makes a bit of money out of their pet and then decides they've had enough of pet ownership to the breeder that feels their bitch would have a happier time in a pet home rather than being left when they go off to shows, or the working home that realises the bitch doesn't really enjoy the work and would be much happier in a home.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> wow...here here....someone can look behind the computer screen! I wished i would have those powers  I also find this as a very nasty, sweeping and belittleing comment from u!


 If you read the bit before the highlighted bit you will see that i said that i am not making judgement because i dont know you, but judging from the posts i have read you do not have the attitude of most breeders who are producing the real top dogs as they most often are breeding on a large scale to produce those top dogs  Which you are very clearly against! So not nasty, not sweeping, and not belittling 

Though please do correct me if im wrong. Do tell me if you breed and whether you breed for the show ring??


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

I breed and if you have question please go ahead with them


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> There may be reasons for rehoming other than money, and while many breeders adore their dogs, they can see the overall picture more clearly and sometimes see that it may be in the best interests of the bitch to be in a home. You can't generalise about this as it is so different from breeder to breeder. From the puppy farmer that drops the ex breeding bitch off at rescue (or worse) and the pet owner that makes a bit of money out of their pet and then decides they've had enough of pet ownership to the breeder that feels their bitch would have a happier time in a pet home rather than being left when they go off to shows, or the working home that realises the bitch doesn't really enjoy the work and would be much happier in a home.


everyone to their own... (and this is where the breeding world imo will never get better as the dogs come second to the breeders wants) I am with the ones which dont agree with it and i dont see much difference in it to bybs replacing breeding stock...end off. Some byb rehome their breeding bitches to other homes instead of rescues....doesnt make them any better in my eyes.....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> If you read the bit before the highlighted bit you will see that i said that i am not making judgement because i dont know you, but judging from the posts i have read you do not have the attitude of most breeders who are producing the real top dogs as they most often are breeding on a large scale to produce those top dogs  Which you are very clearly against! So not nasty, not sweeping, and not belittling
> 
> Though please do correct me if im wrong. Do tell me if you breed and whether you breed for the show ring??


i plan to breed and im in the process of learning and taking things on board and certainly ppl like u i wouldnt want any advice from....

and yes, u said u dont know me which even less gives u the right to make such a sweeping and personal statement


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i plan to breed and im in the process of learning and taking things on board and certainly ppl like u i wouldnt want any advice from....
> 
> and yes, u said u dont know me which even less gives u the right to make such a sweeping and personal statement


Thats fine, i dont give advice on forums. I find it better for people to have a mentor in their chosen breed to get advice from. I'd very rarely take advice from someone from a forum (im a member of some breed specific forums where most of us know each other in "real life", those i take advice from) as for all you know they could be completely clueless and just pretending to know what they're on about. Its easy to do that from behind a computer screen... 

What are you planning to breed from? Your GSD or NI?

Re my "sweeping statement" - i think you are over reacting rather. I can only judge you by your posts, which are on a public board for all to see. From reading those you are clearly not in agreement with large scale breeding and as i cant think of many top breeders who breed from their pet dogs, i think my statement is justified  Im sorry if you took offence to it.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Thats fine, i dont give advice on forums. I find it better for people to have a mentor in their chosen breed to get advice from. I'd very rarely take advice from someone from a forum (im a member of some breed specific forums where most of us know each other in "real life", those i take advice from) as for all you know they could be completely clueless and just pretending to know what they're on about. Its easy to do that from behind a computer screen...
> 
> What are you planning to breed from? Your GSD or NI?


noone of ur business


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> everyone to their own... (and this is where the breeding world imo will never get better as the dogs come second to the breeders wants) I am with the ones which dont agree with it and i dont see much difference in it to bybs replacing breeding stock...end off. Some byb rehome their breeding bitches to other homes instead of rescues....doesnt make them any better in my eyes.....


The problem is that sentimentality doesn't breed good healthy dogs.

Keeping a breeding bitch as a pet has no relationship with whether or not good healthy puppies will be produced. Other factors are important there. Equally, thinking that being a pet is the best life for a dog is a human concept, not a canine one. If being a pet is the only way people should have dogs, then what about all the working ones? I can assure you that working dogs are in many cases far happier working than in their lives as pets.

I would add that my dogs are pets first and foremost and I would not consider rehoming, however, I can see why it may be beneficial.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cav said:


> I breed and if you have question please go ahead with them


i doubt they class u as a proper breeder as u dont chuck out litter after litter ....


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> i plan to breed and im in the process of learning and taking things on board and certainly ppl like u i wouldnt want any advice from....
> 
> and yes, u said u dont know me which even less gives u the right to make such a sweeping and personal statement


yes i would buy a dog from you rarther than going to a breeder that does not have time to spend 1 to 1 with there dogs.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Natik said:


> i plan to breed and im in the process of learning and taking things on board and certainly ppl like u i wouldnt want any advice from....
> 
> and yes, u said u dont know me which even less gives u the right to make such a sweeping and personal statement


Why ?
Jess is a good breeder and knows her dogs inside out,I know her from another forum. 

I didn't see it as a personal attack or anything of that sort I think you are reading the post the wrong way.
She was correct in what she posted I don't see why you have taken such offence,you have yet to breed, you don't produce and haven't produced any top quality puppies so what's the big deal here ?

Jess Nat has an NI I think she is planning on breeding from,to improve the breed and keep a pup 
A very big task ahead me thinks.....

To add:
When we brought Meg,yes she was a pet first and foremost,however we had already got the idea that she was to be our foundation bitch if she turned out as we expected,that's why we fully researched the lines,knew the standard etc...
I wouldn't rehome her because I could no longer breed from her but that's me,I don't agree with breeders moving on dogs for this reason however I do understand why they do it.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> noone of ur business


The NI then


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

I know a couple who go to my ringcraft, who don't have the land and a big fancy house and have very successful dogs, and generations that have done exceptional in the ring, and they have 16 dogs!!

It just sounds very business like to me.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> The problem is that sentimentality doesn't breed good healthy dogs.
> 
> Keeping a breeding bitch as a pet has no relationship with whether or not good healthy puppies will be produced. Other factors are important there. Equally, thinking that being a pet is the best life for a dog is a human concept, not a canine one. If being a pet is the only way people should have dogs, then what about all the working ones? I can assure you that working dogs are in many cases far happier working than in their lives as pets.
> 
> I would add that my dogs are pets first and foremost and I would not consider rehoming, however, I can see why it may be beneficial.


im sure working dogs are treated differently (and the ones i know makes me sad to even know the way they are being treated) ...

how differently are breeding bitches treated to pet bitches by breeders anyway then?


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Why ?
> Jess is a good breeder and knows her dogs inside out,I know her from another forum.
> 
> I didn't see it as a personal attack or anything of that sort I think you are reading the post the wrong way.
> ...


Awww, thank you  I dont mind in the slightest about Natiks distrust of me as i am new to this forum and she has no knowledge of me, my dogs, or my breeding practices so i think thats justified 

I gathered it was the NI by the hostile reaction when i asked  Not suprising given the grief NI breeders get on the other forum which i personally find disgusting. Whatever people think about NIs and the committee and whatever rubbish is thrown about on there, the only way to deal with the health problems they have is for responsible breeders to get on and breed good quality dogs, and whatever Natik thinks of me, i think she will be going the right way about breeding, she is certainly passionate about it and thats what matters really.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> i doubt they class u as a proper breeder as u dont chuck out litter after litter ....


well all the people that have one of my pups are very pleased with them

had a e-mail this morning saying that they are more than happy with Alfie and they also want another one from me in the futer

i spose im bad then because i do home visits to make sure they are all going to good homesut:

big breeders dont have time for this


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> and the ones i know makes me sad to even know the way they are being treated


Well, I guess you must mix in some not too nice circles (cos there are those who don't treat them well, although I don't personally mix with these sorts), and it does indicate a misunderstanding of the canine psyche.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cav said:


> well all the people that have one of my pups are very pleased with them
> 
> had a e-mail this morning saying that they are more than happy with Alfie and they also want another one from me in the futer
> 
> ...


well, i for one seriously wished the breeding world would look up more at breeders like u! :thumbsup:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Well, I guess you must mix in some not too nice circles (cos there are those who don't treat them well, although I don't personally mix with these sorts), and it does indicate a misunderstanding of the canine psyche.


i dont mix with them and thats one of the reasons!  ur guessed wrong


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

cav said:


> well all the people that have one of my pups are very pleased with them
> 
> had a e-mail this morning saying that they are more than happy with Alfie and they also want another one from me in the futer
> 
> ...


Was Natik referring to me as "they" who wouldnt think your a good breeder?

If so, you certainly sound like a good breeder to me, you have the same sort of idea as me - fully vetting ALL new homes, keeping in touch with all puppies, doing it for the best of the breed etc etc etc.

I couldnt comment on whether big breeders have time for proper home checking, i do fear that they wouldnt which is a shame...


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

cav said:


> I think it is disgusting
> They breed them to death then get rid when they have made their money:cursing:
> I breed but all my dogs grow old with me as they are part of the family, im sorry but i feel a person that treats dogs like this needs should not breed





Natik said:


> well, i for one seriously wished the breeding world would look up more at breeders like u! :thumbsup:


I agree.........................


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Was Natik referring to me as "they" who wouldnt think your a good breeder?
> 
> If so, you certainly sound like a good breeder to me, you have the same sort of idea as me - fully vetting ALL new homes, keeping in touch with all puppies, doing it for the best of the breed etc etc etc.
> 
> I couldnt comment on whether big breeders have time for proper home checking, i do fear that they wouldnt which is a shame...


how would cav know who i was reffering to? ask me if u want the right answer


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i dont mix with them and thats one of the reasons!


Well you don't mix in the right ones then


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> how would cav know who i was reffering to? ask me if u want the right answer


Sorry, you seemed a little preoccuopied 

And as Cav had posted that reply whilst you were debating with Dundee i thought i'd ask Cav as s/he must have known who you were talking about to post that reply, right?


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> im sure working dogs are treated differently (and the ones i know makes me sad to even know the way they are being treated) ...
> 
> how differently are breeding bitches treated to pet bitches by breeders anyway then?


I have working dog's that are also pet's. they are treated very well and they will stay with me even when they're unable too work!!. if my cocker pup is gun shy then so be it, She won't be thrown away she's got a home for life. so please don't judge all working dog owner's as bad, it's not fair


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Well you don't mix in the right ones then


gundogs are not my interest....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

christine c said:


> I have working dog's that are also pet's. they are treated very well and they will stay with me even when they're unable too work!!. if my cocker pup is gun shy then so be it, She won't be thrown away she's got a home for life. so please don't judge all working dog owner's as bad, it's not fair


i didnt and i never would! I was only and only referring to the ones i know but i also know from others that alot more of them sadly excist 

Im glad ur one of the responsible ones :thumbsup:


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> i didnt and i never would! I was only and only referring to the ones i know but i also know from others that alot more of them sadly excist
> 
> Im glad ur one of the responsible ones :thumbsup:


Sorry i misunderstood


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

closed for moderating


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Can i just say that your dogs can be pets and you can still produce TOP QUALITY pups


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

cav said:


> Can i just say that your dogs can be pets and you can still produce TOP QUALITY pups


I know, mine are  Although, i sell all of my pups as pets...


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

This is an interesting thread at times,i like to read all the points of view ,my 2 dogs are both unwanted by others,crossbreeds, as i think its all adults on here why cant everyone discuss ,without attacks on others views,just agree to disagree,
Its intersting to read the views of breeders,(having never had anything to do with breeders) i personally could not go down the route of dog breeding,mine are just everyday "mutts",unwanted by others,but my concern as i said in another post are the amount of unwanted dogs pedigree and x breeds that are in rescues awaiting a forever home,
If a breeder sold a pup,then months later got a call saying "i cant have this pup anymore" would you take it back and try to rehome it?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> I know, mine are  Although, i sell all of my pups as pets...


Yes mine as well and i have endorced them

So i feel i have done the best with all my pups


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> This is an interesting thread at times,i like to read all the points of view ,my 2 dogs are both unwanted by others,crossbreeds, as i think its all adults on here why cant everyone discuss ,without attacks on others views,just agree to disagree,
> Its intersting to read the views of breeders,(having never had anything to do with breeders) i personally could not go down the route of dog breeding,mine are just everyday "mutts",unwanted by others,but my concern as i said in another post are the amount of unwanted dogs pedigree and x breeds that are in rescues awaiting a forever home,
> If a breeder sold a pup,then months later got a call saying "i cant have this pup anymore" would you take it back and try to rehome it?


Yes we took back a dog we bred when he was 2 1/2 years old and a complete and utter wreck.
We turned him around and then rehomed him to a close family friend.I hold my hands we made a huge mistake,one never to be repeated.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

hazel pritchard said:


> This is an interesting thread at times,i like to read all the points of view ,my 2 dogs are both unwanted by others,crossbreeds, as i think its all adults on here why cant everyone discuss ,without attacks on others views,just agree to disagree,
> Its intersting to read the views of breeders,(having never had anything to do with breeders) i personally could not go down the route of dog breeding,mine are just everyday "mutts",unwanted by others,but my concern as i said in another post are the amount of unwanted dogs pedigree and x breeds that are in rescues awaiting a forever home,
> If a breeder sold a pup,then months later got a call saying "i cant have this pup anymore" would you take it back and try to rehome it?


Yes i would take it back...i put it in the contract

Not all breeders are the same


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> This is an interesting thread at times,i like to read all the points of view ,my 2 dogs are both unwanted by others,crossbreeds, as i think its all adults on here why cant everyone discuss ,without attacks on others views,just agree to disagree,
> Its intersting to read the views of breeders,(having never had anything to do with breeders) i personally could not go down the route of dog breeding,mine are just everyday "mutts",unwanted by others,but my concern as i said in another post are the amount of unwanted dogs pedigree and x breeds that are in rescues awaiting a forever home,
> *If a breeder sold a pup,then months later got a call saying "i cant have this pup anymore" would you take it back and try to rehome it?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Sallyanne thanks for your reply,thank goodness you got this dog back and sorted it out,people can look,sound and act ok but we never know what goes on behind closed doors,:thumbup1:Thanks also for all the above replies,


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

cav said:


> Yes mine as well and i have endorced them
> 
> So i feel i have done the best with all my pups


Yes, i endorse all of mine too. We can only do our best


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Thats fine, i dont give advice on forums. I find it better for people to have a mentor in their chosen breed to get advice from. I'd very rarely take advice from someone from a forum (im a member of some breed specific forums where most of us know each other in "real life", those i take advice from) as for all you know they could be completely clueless and just pretending to know what they're on about. Its easy to do that from behind a computer screen...


so do I but there is nothing wrong with trying to cover the learning process from all different sides! People have discussed so many real life stories about breeding on here which surely will not harm my learning process ... only widen it up for consideration and discussing with my mentors :thumbsup:

I for one learned alot on this forum which i wouldnt want to miss and i appreciate the advice given in the past and hopefully in the future :thumbsup:

Great place that is !


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> so do I but there is nothing wrong with trying to cover the learning process from all different sides! People have discussed so many real life stories about breeding on here which surely will not harm my learning process ... only widen it up for consideration and discussing with my mentors :thumbsup:
> 
> I for one learned alot on this forum which i wouldnt want to miss and i appreciate the advice given in the past and hopefully in the future :thumbsup:
> 
> Great place that is !


Hmmm... I suppose its how you look at it. Yes, take things on board and discuss with people in your breed if it raises concerns to you. But generally on these general boards i will take it all on with some caution. I have seen some horrendous advice given out that is truely scary, and if people dont have back up it could cause serious problems to the animals in question (im not just referring to dogs and breeding). So yeah, i will mostly avoid giving too much advice as you dont see the animals, you only know what people tell you and its all to easy for them to miss certain important things, or to bend the truth a bit if it may have made them sound like they were in the wrong... Its just not worth the risk. If someone thinks they have a sick dog, my advice is to get it to the vet. If they have breeding concerns, i generally tell them to find a mentor in their breed


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I for one learned alot on this forum which i wouldnt want to miss and i appreciate the advice given in the past and hopefully in the future


Talking generally and not just about breeding, but it worries me how much people rely on the internet rather than getting on hand advice and experience. And often, the quality of the advice given leaves a lot to be desired.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Hmmm... I suppose its how you look at it. Yes, take things on board and discuss with people in your breed if it raises concerns to you. But generally on these general boards i will take it all on with some caution. I have seen some horrendous advice given out that is truely scary, and if people dont have back up it could cause serious problems to the animals in question (im not just referring to dogs and breeding). So yeah, i will mostly avoid giving too much advice as you dont see the animals, you only know what people tell you and its all to easy for them to miss certain important things, or to bend the truth a bit if it may have made them sound like they were in the wrong... Its just not worth the risk. If someone thinks they have a sick dog, my advice is to get it to the vet. If they have breeding concerns, i generally tell them to find a mentor in their breed


When someone has a sick dog they shouldnt ask for advice they should be at the vets 

thats why i said .... put it into consideration and discuss it with real life ppl 

U cant put every advice given on here on the golden scale ....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik said:


> i seriously dont understand why a breeder would considere rehoming an ex-breeding bitch or a bitch which is unsuitable for breeding as the best choice.... and i dont mean the obvious reasons for rehoming like not being able to feed or look after the dog etc
> 
> I would understand it if the breeder sees him/herself as a breeding business replacing the stock or one of those show people who replace the dog as it doesnt do well in the ring  But those people imo dont bond with their dogs and dont see them as loving pets first and foremost...
> 
> But what reasons would have any other breeder have? Surely if other dogs can be looked after with care or any new ones brought in why couldnt the ex breeding bitch? Im kind of lost there :blushing:


Ok, as a couple of examples, what if you work dogs and breed them (responsibly of course  ). You breed out of a maiden bitch, she suffers first degree inertia, you agree with the vets recommendation to have her spayed. You will no longer be able to carry on a line from that bitch with further pups from her. If you already have a few dogs you're working, and want to compete, you are unlikely to be able to prioritise competing with this bitch, so if the right home came up for her to have a good life doing what she's been bred to do would you rehome her?

Another scenario along similar lines; you buy in a good quality show bitch, unfortunately you find out over the course of time, she doesn't enjoy showing. Not to worry as you may carry on from one of her pups. What if something similar happens, the bitch suffers from inertia, you don't want, as a responsible breeder to carry on with a pup from her in case it is anything genetic, so you have her spayed. At the same time, as a breeder, if you've kept a pup or two back from a different litter, the home life changes, with boisterous pups being run on. What if the right home came up for that bitch?

Sometimes even when people aren't looking to rehome dogs, they get someone out of the blue comes along looking for a dog that they happen to have that fits the bill.

I never say never in life, far too many things can change.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, as a couple of examples, what if you work dogs and breed them (responsibly of course  ). You breed out of a maiden bitch, she suffers first degree inertia, you agree with the vets recommendation to have her spayed. You will no longer be able to carry on a line from that bitch with further pups from her. If you already have a few dogs you're working, and want to compete, you are unlikely to be able to prioritise competing with this bitch, so if the right home came up for her to have a good life doing what she's been bred to do would you rehome her?
> 
> *i wouldnt put my selfish need to wanting to compete over the dog i chose to love till it dies!*
> 
> ...


See red answers above


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

I guess thats where a professional dog breeder who makes furthering their breed their way of life who differs from the hobby breeders (of which i am one!) who just wants to produce a few litters.

Natik - the breeders who have bred in these ways you claim to be irresponsible and uncaring have added so much to the dog world. The health of certain breeds would be in a terrible state if it wasnt for the practices of these breeders (ie removing dogs who fail health tests/fail in the ring/field from the breeding programme) who you condemn.

Yes, it isn't for everyone. I wouldnt get any enjoyment out of breeding in that way myself, but i do have every respect for these breeders, many of them have done more for the health and well being of dogs in this country than many of us could ever hope to. Maybe you will bear that in mind before you get on your soapbox again. Breeding is heartbreaking, and sometimes you have to be tough.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik, surely you can see that with the two examples I've given that it would be putting the needs of the dog first? 

It's unrealistic to think someone who works or shows their dogs, might never come across the situation where it might be better for one of their ex breeding bitches, or even a pup they've run on, to be rehomed. 

Out of the people I know that have rehomed ex breeding bitches/pups responsibly, they weren't actually looking at the time, the situation has just come about and they have made what is in their eyes, and I agree, the best decision for the dog.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Natik, surely you can see that with the two examples I've given that it would be putting the needs of the dog first?
> 
> It's unrealistic to think someone who works or shows their dogs, might never come across the situation where it might be better for one of their ex breeding bitches, or even a pup they've run on, to be rehomed.
> 
> Out of the people I know that have rehomed ex breeding bitches/pups responsibly, they weren't actually looking at the time, the situation has just come about and they have made what is in their eyes, and I agree, the best decision for the dog.


no, in my eyes it would have been a selfish decision only to put someones own desires and wants in front of the dog. I priorities and my priority are my dogs and then my wants..... if my dog wouldnt like showing but i would, i would stop showing. As simple as that....

sometimes we make a choice for life (and i count animals into that choice) .... (exceptions are when any danger comes into it or of course not being able to take care of an animal and i dont count selfish choices into that  )


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Natik - the breeders who have bred in these ways you claim to be irresponsible and uncaring have added so much to the dog world. The health of certain breeds would be in a terrible state if it wasnt for the practices of these breeders (ie removing dogs who fail health tests/fail in the ring/field from the breeding programme) who you condemn.


the health of certain breeds is in a horrible state ....

And responsible breeders who breed not in this ways do also not breed from dogs which fail health tests, fail in the ring/field  so what is it ur trying to say?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fair enough, you've obviously got a different view point completely, I'd say you were putting yourself first if you kept a dog with you when a better home was available. 

Many of the people who show and work their dogs do so because they are committed to the breed, much as you are with your NI girl. It doesn't mean that they love their dogs any less, they give them what they believe is the best life possible, its just not the same as your beliefs. 

One of those things in life you just have to agree to differ on


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> the health of certain breeds is in a horrible state ....
> 
> And responsible breeders who breed not in this ways do also not breed from dogs which fail health tests, fail in the ring/field  so what is it ur trying to say?


That maybe you should spend a little bit of time learning more about breeding and talking to some of the really well respected breeders we have in this country who's lines are the foundation of many of the top dogs at the moment. You might learn something  Just because you dont agree with it, doesnt mean it is wrong.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Fair enough, you've obviously got a different view point completely, I'd say you were putting yourself first if you kept a dog with you when a better home was available.
> 
> Many of the people who show and work their dogs do so because they are committed to the breed, much as you are with your NI girl. It doesn't mean that they love their dogs any less, they give them what they believe is the best life possible, its just not the same as your beliefs.
> 
> One of those things in life you just have to agree to differ on


my home is a good home, there wouldnt be a better one, of course the exception would be if i wouldnt have an interest in keeping my dogs for life


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> no, in my eyes it would have been a selfish decision only to put someones own desires and wants in front of the dog.


But you say you're going to breed!

All breeding is selfish and a decision the owner makes for the dog - it is not the dog's maternal desire. Dogs (and bitches) do not desire to reproduce. Yes, they have biological urges, but the don't yearn for puppies like humans yearn for babies. Putting a bitch through pregnancy is a very stressful and hard experience and can put her life in danger - all that for purely selfish reasons!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> That maybe you should spend a little bit of time learning more about breeding and talking to some of the really well respected breeders we have in this country who's lines are the foundation of many of the top dogs at the moment. You might learn something  Just because you dont agree with it, doesnt mean it is wrong.


well, in my eyes it is wrong..... and my previous posts will explain why...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> But you say you're going to breed!
> 
> All breeding is selfish and a decision the owner makes for the dog - it is not the dog's maternal desire. Dogs (and bitches) do not desire to reproduce. Yes, they have biological urges, but the don't yearn for puppies like humans yearn for babies. Putting a bitch through pregnancy is a very stressful and hard experience and can put her life in danger - all that for purely selfish reasons!!!


gosh, u really pick on anything and put ur own interpretation into words.

I explained in what ways i priorities my dogs ... i dont need to explain again for sure?

The is a difference being able to improve a breed rather then breed for the sake of it which of course would be the selfish choice !


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, in my eyes it is wrong..... and my previous posts will explain why...


Indeed, but without meaning to be offensive, your views come across as very blinkered. You are unwilling to even consider any other points of view which makes it like talking to a brick wall. So i will leave you to your views and opinions and wish you all the luck in the world breeding from your NI... I really do


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Indeed, but without meaning to be offensive, your views come across as very blinkered. You are unwilling to even consider any other points of view which makes it like talking to a brick wall. So i will leave you to your views and opinions and wish you all the luck in the world breeding from your NI... I really do


thank u


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

OH MY!!!! 

20 PAGES LATER AND WE ARE ALL STILL BICKERING ABOUT BREEDING!!! 

Come on guys get a life and move on this is getting silly now.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i dont need to explain again for sure?


You don't need to explain anything - I understand fully. I was just pointing out that ALL breeding however it is done is ultimately selfish. As owners we are putting our bitches through something that they have not chosen to do.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

kath123 said:


> OH MY!!!!
> 
> 20 PAGES LATER AND WE ARE ALL STILL BICKERING ABOUT BREEDING!!!
> 
> Come on guys get a life and move on this is getting silly now.


i find it very interesting  we might not agree but i still dont think thats bickering


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i find it very interesting  we might not agree but i still dont think thats bickering


Thats one thing i will agree with. Whilst it has gone off topic, i dont think its bickering, and may actually be educational for other people reading to see different views and opinions on breeding


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> You don't need to explain anything - I understand fully. I was just pointing out that ALL breeding however it is done is ultimately selfish. As owners we are putting our bitches through something that they have not chosen to do.


as owners we make every day selfish choices if u want to see it that way...
the dogs follow us so whatever happens we are responsible for it. 
U can really torn words apart and put endless meanings into them but that would be an endless thread i fear lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik said:


> i find it very interesting  we might not agree but i still dont think thats bickering


I have to actually agree with you on that one Natik


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> i find it very interesting  we might not agree but i still dont think thats bickering


I no nothing about breeding, This is the only one i've seen that hasn't been closed. So i'd say well done and carry on i'm learning thing's i didn't no


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> i find it very interesting  we might not agree but i still dont think thats bickering


i find it really interesting too Natik & inspite of differing opinions its all been very good natured


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> U can really torn words apart and put endless meanings into them but that would be an endless thread i fear lol


Not at all, it's just double standards to say that you would never put your selfish needs before your dogs and yet you are considering breeding which is done for selfish reasons. In fact, the bitch is put at considerably more risk during pregnancy than in a rehoming !

Just to explain, my bitch is likely to have a litter on her next season. This is for MY benefit, not hers. There is absolutely no benefit to her in having a litter, she will not miss being pregnant, she will not gain anything, she will not feel life has passed her by if she doesn't have a litter.

You consider putting someone's interest in showing before their dog selfish and yet breeding isn't ?!?!?!


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Yes agree I have certainly found this very interesting


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Luvdogs said:


> Yes agree I have certainly found this very interesting


I the breeder's and non breeder's have


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Not at all, it's just double standards to say that you would never put your selfish needs before your dogs and yet you are considering breeding which is done for selfish reasons. In fact, the bitch is put at considerably more risk during pregnancy than in a rehoming !


i dont see it that way.... i agree i make the choice for my dog when and with who, but then getting pregnant is part of life and nature and to keep life continuing or else the danger of extincion would arise and i guess rehoming is not (if u know what i mean lol)


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Not at all, it's just double standards to say that you would never put your selfish needs before your dogs and yet you are considering breeding which is done for selfish reasons. In fact, the bitch is put at considerably more risk during pregnancy than in a rehoming !
> 
> Just to explain, my bitch is likely to have a litter on her next season. This is for MY benefit, not hers. There is absolutely no benefit to her in having a litter, she will not miss being pregnant, she will not gain anything, she will not feel life has passed her by if she doesn't have a litter.
> 
> You consider putting someone's interest in showing before their dog selfish and yet breeding isn't ?!?!?!


Totally agree with you!


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i dont see it that way.... i agree i make the choice for my dog when and with who, but then getting pregnant is part of life and nature and to keep life continuing or else the danger of extincion would arise and i guess rehoming is not (if u know what i mean lol)


Well if your going to look at it that way then, in theory, your dog shouldnt exist at all. She is of an entirely man made breed - a cross of GSD and husky amongst other things i believe? In nature those breeds would never come into contact. If everything was left to nature there would be almost none of the breeds we have in the world now.

So dog breeding is NOT a part of life, it is something we choose to do, for a hobby.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the breeding of pet animals and the "money" side of it.
Many "hobby" breeders both pedigree and non pedigree will swear blind that they make no money but are still charging well over the cost of what a puppy/kitten would ever cost to produce.
Some have litter after litter and will breed more animals in a year than any true "hobby" breeder would ever produce, probably in a lifetime.
The fact that they have x number of queens or bitches producing many litters a year with a high turnover of animals and they "make no money" does that make them a "hobby" breeder or just a bad business person? Me thinks many breeders protesteth too much as regards their "hobby" status.

"Hobby" is often a euphemism for "nice little earner" I feel and we are not all as stupid as believe that these people are genuine "hobby" breeders with the "best" interests of their animals always at heart.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Well if your going to look at it that way then, in theory, your dog shouldnt exist at all. She is of an entirely man made breed - a cross of GSD and husky amongst other things i believe? In nature those breeds would never come into contact. If everything was left to nature there would be almost none of the breeds we have in the world now.
> 
> So dog breeding is NOT a part of life, it is something we choose to do, for a hobby.


i never said dog breeding is part of life 

i said getting pregnant is part of life ... circle of life... under supervision


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Natik said:


> i find it very interesting  we might not agree but i still dont think thats bickering


You are all going round and round in a big circle, yes some threads about breeding are interesting but there are so many that are being started and then being closed because you dont agree with each other.

You have a difference of opinion which is aboslutely fine but is there need for it to go on for 20 pages?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Not at all, it's just double standards to say that you would never put your selfish needs before your dogs and yet you are considering breeding which is done for selfish reasons. In fact, the bitch is put at considerably more risk during pregnancy than in a rehoming !
> 
> Just to explain, my bitch is likely to have a litter on her next season. This is for MY benefit, not hers. There is absolutely no benefit to her in having a litter, she will not miss being pregnant, she will not gain anything, she will not feel life has passed her by if she doesn't have a litter.
> 
> You consider putting someone's interest in showing before their dog selfish and yet breeding isn't ?!?!?!


i totally agree.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

I agree abit on both sides and it is nice good debate


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kath123 said:


> You are all going round and round in a big circle, yes some threads about breeding are interesting but there are so many that are being started and then being closed because you dont agree with each other.
> 
> You have a difference of opinion which is aboslutely fine but is there need for it to go on for 20 pages?


well you dont av to read it we enjoy a good natured debate


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think there is a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the breeding of pet animals and the "money" side of it.
> Many "hobby" breeders both pedigree and non pedigree will swear blind that they make no money but are still charging well over the cost of what a puppy/kitten would ever cost to produce.
> Some have litter after litter and will breed more animals in a year than any true "hobby" breeder would ever produce, probably in a lifetime.
> The fact that they have x number of queens or bitches producing many litters a year with a high turnover of animals and they "make no money" does that make them a "hobby" breeder or just a bad business person? Me thinks many breeders protesteth too much as regards their "hobby" status.
> ...


Its me that has mentioned hobby breeders, so just to clarify...

I dont know what the official "hobby breeder" definition is, but to me i take it to mean as breeding to support my hobby (showing). So, i only breed a litter when my hobby means i need a want a new one for the ring.

I think most breeders will make money on litters. I have only had a few litters, on one we lost a lot of money due to complications with whelping, and problems with one of the pups that needed surgery, then we gave that pup away, sold one for about half price to a friend, and kept the other. So we lost well over £1k on that litter  But on the last litter i will admit we did make money. Though, thats not sat in the bank adding up to buy me a nice shiney new car, sadly  That went straight into show entries, health testing, petrol for the shows, feeding the dogs etc etc etc... It all adds up and any money i make goes straight back into the dogs. With the litter i have now i could probably make about £7k on the pups. Natural birth, no complications (so far, fingers crossed!!) so we only have the cost of health testing (about £200), stud fee, and then raising the litter. But, as im keeping most of them, i may break even... just 

But thats my choice to keep the pups to show, and hopefully be the foundations for a future line of my own


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

kath123 said:


> You are all going round and round in a big circle, yes some threads about breeding are interesting but there are so many that are being started and then being closed because you dont agree with each other.
> 
> You have a difference of opinion which is aboslutely fine but is there need for it to go on for 20 pages?


why not?

if ppl dont like it then they shouldnt read it 

there are those on here who enjoy debating and discussing those things. 
U will never get a debate with ppl agreeing 100% with each other...

and to end it just because the 20 pages mark has been reached...heh ... why? No harm is done by disagreeing politly :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> well you dont av to read it we enjoy a good natured debate


We will see how long this one lasts before getting closed.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

As a hobby breeder yes you can make a little money but ive also lost alot off money


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Natik said:


> why not?
> 
> if ppl dont like it then they shouldnt read it
> 
> ...


As stated in previous post, we will see???


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

kath123 said:


> We will see how long this one lasts before getting closed.


why??

i have seen nothing bad...just a healthy debate


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

kath123 said:


> As stated in previous post, we will see???


dont be so negative


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

If it is the 1st breeding debate that ends all happy and nobody complaining about being picked on or bullyed then i will give you all a personal apology for being so negative on this thread.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kath123 said:


> If it is the 1st breeding debate that ends all happy and nobody complaining about being picked on or bullyed then i will give you all a personal apology for being so negative on this thread.


i'll hold you to that!:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i'll hold you to that!:thumbsup:


Please do as i may well be jumping the gun here, i am just going from what i have read from previous breeding threads and it all ends in tears.

So i will apologise if i am Assuming when i shouldnt do that. x


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

kath123 said:


> Please do as i may well be jumping the gun here, i am just going from what i have read from previous breeding threads and it all ends in tears.
> 
> So i will apologise if i am Assuming when i shouldnt do that. x


Kath get off off here you stopping the debate


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

I feel picked on AND bullied AND im in tears!!!!!





There, you're off the hook for the apology


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

christine c said:


> Kath get off off here you stopping the debate


She's gone ....................................................


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Why is it when we have a healthy debate we always get those who want to see it closed or moan because perhaps the thread isn't going their particular way?

Opinions vary, we know that, it will go round in a circle we know that too but some will learn from it.

It is always the moaning minnies who get threads closed why can't they just concentrate on the topic at hand and give some good arguments for debate instead of trying to ruin things.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Why is it when we have a healthy debate we always get those who want to see it closed or moan because perhaps the thread isn't going their particular way?
> 
> Opinions vary, we know that, it will go round in a circle we know that too but some will learn from it.
> 
> It is always the moaning minnies who get threads closed why can't they just concentrate on the topic at hand and give some good arguments for debate instead of trying to ruin things.


i agree...


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i agree...


hello you
where as your pic gone???


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Why is it when we have a healthy debate we always get those who want to see it closed or moan because perhaps the thread isn't going their particular way?
> 
> Opinions vary, we know that, it will go round in a circle we know that too but some will learn from it.
> 
> It is always the moaning minnies who get threads closed why can't they just concentrate on the topic at hand and give some good arguments for debate instead of trying to ruin things.


I agree...Then people wonder why certain people after one of two posts dont take part in thread!
sad really


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cav said:


> hello you
> where as your pic gone???


hello there im in disguise! xxx


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

i went through a stage of answering all the puppy adverts on gumtree.

asking all the right questions re health screening, registration etc and even throwing in a few trick questions to try and deliberately catch people out.

the results i got were astounding and shocking.

the same person had about 5 ads on for different dogs, all purported to be pedigree.

when i asked abot the parents and checks and papers and kc names to check with k9data i kept getting the same responses that along the lines of:

these puppies are hand reared in a loving home and have learned commands such as sit and come.

they will have a cd with them telling how to care.

please send money to ,an address in belfast, we will then ship puppy to you.

thank you for adopting puppy we will send as soon as money arrives.


not one reply re health and parents or anything else.

i now have a personal mission to email all the dodgy kennels i find and also the people who seem to have scant regard for the welfare of the pups.

it aint illegal but i find it immoral.

so my answer is no!!!!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> went through a stage of answering all the puppy adverts on gumtree.


 Were you trying to raise your blood pressure! I admit I cannot look through these ads. I don't look at epupz gumtree or any of the other internet freead sites - it is simply too depressing, and I certainly couldn't bring myself to talk to them 



> the results i got were astounding and shocking.


Unfortunately, poor breeders (of vary degrees) are by far the majority. Good breeders are in the minority 



> when i asked abot the parents and checks and papers and kc names to check with k9data i kept getting the same responses that along the lines of:
> 
> these puppies are hand reared in a loving home and have learned commands such as sit and come.


And do you know how many people are satisfied with that sort of an answer - a depressing majority of buyers.

Cute puppies mean that people focus on the 'cuteness' and little else. As long as they've been loved (and some can make it appear pretty convincing) then that's ok. I've lost count the number of times I've advised on this forum getting puppy from health tested parents only to have the poster ignore the advice, or have only one of the health tests done. People think because they are not a commercial breeder and they're breeding from their 'pet' then they don't need to do these things. The gullible public ensure that these people keep breeding.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Those ads sound like scams to me, not responses from breeders. When i was looking for a parrot a few months ago i got the same sort of responses just substiting "puppy" for "parrot" - and that was on a reputable breeders list!!!


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

yep agree.

you should see the withering e mails i send them lol.

i intensely dislike (detest) them and take every oppurtunity to have a go lol.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> please send money to ,an address in belfast, we will then ship puppy to you.
> 
> thank you for adopting puppy we will send as soon as money arrives.


ppl send the money and get no puppy in return....its a scam......


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Way to go Guys and Gals pages and pages of healthy debate dispite some members wishing a fall out LOL. This thread is interesting reading well done OP for starting it


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

clueless said:


> Way to go Guys and Gals pages and pages of healthy debate dispite some members wishing a fall out LOL. This thread is interesting reading well done OP for starting it


Why thank you


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## bassetsandbeyond (Jun 21, 2009)

dexter said:


> me neither. mine are spayed and here to stay........................


here here. A dogs for life


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Were you trying to raise your blood pressure! I admit I cannot look through these ads. I don't look at epupz gumtree or any of the other internet freead sites - it is simply too depressing, and I certainly couldn't bring myself to talk to them .


I feel like that about the breeding section here sometimes, I rarely post here now, I just get too cross with some of the people breeding


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

rona said:


> I feel like that about the breeding section here sometimes, I rarely post here now, I just get too cross with some of the people breeding


me too....... can't believe some of the crosses done!! especially as rescues are full to capacity.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

dexter said:


> ....rescues are full to capacity.


It just doesn't seem to register, they give us the same old story about breeding for friends and relatives whereas any decent person would point the friends and relatives down to the nearest pound and tell them to get a dog/puppy from there, and not risk the health of their own dog by allowing her to have puppies under the guidance of someone who basically has no experience of whelping ie themselves.
I think in order to breed your dog you should have to go to a pound and see 6 nice friendly dogs being put down there (which happens every day by the way), as that is the number in the average litter and these are the dogs that will be denied a home by breeding their own dog. I would think it may concentrate a few minds as to the consequences.


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

rona said:


> I feel like that about the breeding section here sometimes, I rarely post here now, I just get too cross with some of the people breeding


Me too


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

As I was exercising the girls first thing this morning, I got thinking (which is always a dangerous thing for me to do) about this thread, and the reason why I posed the question originally.

I was trying to aim or concentrate the debate around those who breed for the pet market mainly, with a pretty responsible attitude, health checking their dog(s) and abiding by the guidelines the KC recommends for the main part. It's been said a few times on this thread (and others), that breeding should be left to those who know what they're doing, and have a purpose, eg show or working. 

I don't think show or working by itself does an awful lot of good in some cases. I'm particularly thinking of those breeds where conforming to the interpretation of the breed standard by the show fraternity, has meant that those breeds have health defects to comply, eg skin problems because of excessive loose skin, eye problems because of excessive skin, joint problems where they've been bred for 'substance', and the list goes on. There was a fairly damning article in a June edition of the Shooting Times, which puts some of those who compete/work their dogs (and breed) under scrutiny, in fact there's currently a court case regarding the article. 

Why is it ok for these types of breeder to make money (not necessarily a profit) and not a responsible pet breeder?


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As I was exercising the girls first thing this morning, I got thinking (which is always a dangerous thing for me to do) about this thread, and the reason why I posed the question originally.
> 
> I was trying to aim or concentrate the debate around those who breed for the pet market mainly, with a pretty responsible attitude, health checking their dog(s) and abiding by the guidelines the KC recommends for the main part. It's been said a few times on this thread (and others), that breeding should be left to those who know what they're doing, and have a purpose, eg show or working.
> 
> ...


This has always been my contention, particularly with the show fraternity.
They do not always have the best intentions when breeding, a lot of the guidelines set out in the breed standards do nothing to enhance the breed, to the contrary some actually are to the detriment of the breed.
I'm not saying that every breeder in every breed is at fault but I do believe that some should look at what they are doing to the breed as a whole.
This does still apply to other types of breeder, but it is the show fraternity that has had the power to set these standards and in some cases have failed their chosen breed miserably.
All people choosing to breed, should always study and health test long before embarking on something that could effect the lives of those puppies


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

rona said:


> This has always been my contention, particularly with the show fraternity.
> They do not always have the best intentions when breeding, a lot of the guidelines set out in the breed standards do nothing to enhance the breed, to the contrary some actually are to the detriment of the breed.
> I'm not saying that every breeder in every breed is at fault but I do believe that some should look at what they are doing to the breed as a whole.
> This does still apply to other types of breeder, but it is the show fraternity that has had the power to set these standards and in some cases have failed their chosen breed miserably.
> All people choosing to breed, should always study and health test long before embarking on something that could effect the lives of those puppies


Agree with this, some people don't look at the bigger picture , but as you've said, this can be said for all types of breeders


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree with your comments,but really wish breeders would stop and think more about what happens to the puppies once they are sold on.i know some on here have said they take the pups back if it does not work out with the new owners,thats great but what about the ones that end up in rescues or just dumped,i am wondering if more breeders are just in it for the money than will admit it,
I have read other postson other threads about people breeding from their cross breeds,this just makes me mad ,i really dont understand why they do it,unless once again its for money.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

most reputable breeders will take their pups back , that includes me, what evr age the dog is.. Somtimes things don't work out.. however would all those so called breeders of deliberate crosses that have charged extortionate prices for their pups do to it. i doubt it?? one only has to look at some of the rescue sites, they're full of so called desginer crosses.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

dexter said:


> most reputable breeders will take their pups back , that includes me, what evr age the dog is.. Somtimes things don't work out.. however would all those so called breeders of deliberate crosses that have charged extortionate prices for their pups do to it. i doubt it?? one only has to look at some of the rescue sites, they're full of so called desginer crosses.


why jumping at crosses constantly? 

I can tell u there are enough of pedigree breeders not bothering about their pups and where they end up and they wouldnt take them back either.
And im sure those pedigree breeders charge large amounts for irresponsible breeding as well.... there are some crossbreeders who do a more fantastic job when its about the aftercare about their pups than some pedigree breeders do....

..its not nice to jump constantly at only one side of the picture


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2009)

dexter said:


> most reputable breeders will take their pups back , that includes me, what evr age the dog is.. Somtimes things don't work out.. however would all those so called breeders of deliberate crosses that have charged extortionate prices for their pups do to it. i doubt it?? one only has to look at some of the rescue sites, they're full of so called desginer crosses.


I'm sure that a lot of them are just as caring as you


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

rona said:


> I'm sure that a lot of them are just as caring as you


i'm not so sure about that............


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There are a lot of cross breeds in rescue, but I bet the majority are 'accidents' rather than the latest fashion trend. 

There are also a lot of pedigrees in rescue. Out of the two I've rescued, one was a pedigree, the other was an accidental cross, both oldies.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As I was exercising the girls first thing this morning, I got thinking (which is always a dangerous thing for me to do) about this thread, and the reason why I posed the question originally.
> 
> I was trying to aim or concentrate the debate around those who breed for the pet market mainly, with a pretty responsible attitude, health checking their dog(s) and abiding by the guidelines the KC recommends for the main part. It's been said a few times on this thread (and others), that breeding should be left to those who know what they're doing, and have a purpose, eg show or working.
> 
> ...


Blimey you are giving this subject lots of thought,must try those long walks sometime 
I think breeding purely for pets can be tricky even if they breed responsibily most don't have a clue about the breed standard set for the breed,therefore not breeding to the standard and you eventually loose the breed type,quality and consistancy,leading to the dogs they are producing looking nothing like the breed they are suposed to resemble.


rona said:


> This has always been my contention, particularly with the show fraternity.
> They do not always have the best intentions when breeding, a lot of the guidelines set out in the breed standards do nothing to enhance the breed, to the contrary some actually are to the detriment of the breed.
> I'm not saying that every breeder in every breed is at fault but I do believe that some should look at what they are doing to the breed as a whole.
> This does still apply to other types of breeder, but it is the show fraternity that has had the power to set these standards and in some cases have failed their chosen breed miserably.
> All people choosing to breed, should always study and health test long before embarking on something that could effect the lives of those puppies


Good Post,I agree.


Natik said:


> why jumping at crosses constantly?
> 
> I can tell u there are enough of pedigree breeders not bothering about their pups and where they end up and they wouldnt take them back either.
> And im sure those pedigree breeders charge large amounts for irresponsible breeding as well.... there are some crossbreeders who do a more fantastic job when its about the aftercare about their pups than some pedigree breeders do....
> ...


I agree,you only have to see how many Staffords are in rescue,in some rescue's they out number the crossbreeds.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

The reason i asked about breeding crossbreeds was both my dogs are crossbreeds,neither of them were wanted by the breeder,i dont know if it was an accidental mating or not,my dog (the one in my avater) was found dumped in a box with another puppy believed to be his brother, they were about 6 wks old,my other dog is a Lakeland x JR my husband got to know someone who had bred a litter as working dogs,and the other pup we have did not get a working home,so was unwanted,


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