# Unregistered breeders ?



## Angelicats (Jan 4, 2008)

Hi everyone,
I have just had the most annoying phone call from someone wanting to become a back yard breeder. she wants to start breeding siamese with no papers etc, no blood tests, and on top of that to pay pittance for her breeding stock. She had the cheek to criticize registered breeders about how much they charge for they kittens.


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

That's strange - Either Kelly or May had exactly the same sort of phone call on Saturday. I wonder if you're in the same area! They're up t'north and they both breed Siamese/Orientals.


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## Angelicats (Jan 4, 2008)

Could have been the same person, she said that she had phoned all over.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Angelicats said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have just had the most annoying phone call from someone wanting to become a back yard breeder. she wants to start breeding siamese with no papers etc, no blood tests, and on top of that to pay pittance for her breeding stock. She had the cheek to criticize registered breeders about how much they charge for they kittens.


How strange, if she wanted to go into unregistered breeding why would she try to start with registered cats??


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Amanda-know how ya feel-we had a phonecall just like this one-you can imagine how polite i wasn't


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Why do people want to become unreg breeders? 

Is it because people won't sell them active cats or because they are too lazy to do it right?!


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

> Why do people want to become unreg breeders?


With Bengals and Savannahs it's financial.
BYBs can say they are buying a girl, or boy, as a pet and pay only a third of what they should be paying for a cat registered as a breeder with GCCF or TICA.

It's bizarre and I don't really understand it because if a BYB is doing it for 'love of the breed' then they are undermining the breed by not using really good quality cats.. and if they're doing it for money.. well that doesn't make sense either because they cannot charge anywhere near what registered breeders do for registered cats.

What is the pricing like for other breeds? Is there a higher price for breeders? The difference between our active Russian Blues and Abyssinians was nominal compared to the pet price. I have no idea why there would be BYBs in these breeds if the difference is just £50 or £100.


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## Angelicats (Jan 4, 2008)

Another problem with BYB is they are buying cats on the non active and then breeding with them. I know of a byb who does this on purpose.


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## may (Nov 2, 2007)

lizward said:


> How strange, if she wanted to go into unregistered breeding why would she try to start with registered cats??


The person who spoke to me said QUOTE, I want a Siamese any colour must be a girl and not interested in papers, I asked as a pet? she said weeeeeell ye! but we cant pay that much for one so ye can keep the papers!!!! she went on to say I just missed two Siamese girls in the "Loot'' 
I cant put what I said but it started with you cheeky B******


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

my active girls cost me the same as my non active boy. 

there seem to be alot of bengal cats/kittens on sale it seems. alot of them on the active. 

i think maybe it must ruin registered breeder's sales sometimes as people who can't afford much go for a cheaper unreg kitten. this is just encouraging these bybs and also you don't know what health prob the kittens may have.

it's such a shame than some people see these poor animals as a way to make money!!!

but how they make money i don't know when they charge less. they must be making cut backs somewhere in their cat's and kitten's care which is very sad.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

When I was breeding before, the kitten prices were the same whether they were active or non-active. These days, there seems to be a difference of about £100. Of course you would make that back on the very first kitten you sold so it doesn't really make sense to deliberately set out to breed unregistered cats. There are valid reasons why one might produce an unregistered litter or even several, but I can see no reason why one would set out to do so if one was starting from scratch.

However there are some breeds (Burmese are a prime example) where ti is extremely difficult to get an active registered kitten and in such cases it is understandable, if shortsighted, that someone might decide to try the back door route. 

Liz


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

> However there are some breeds (Burmese are a prime example) where ti is extremely difficult to get an active registered kitten and in such cases it is understandable, if shortsighted, that someone might decide to try the back door route.


Wow. I didn't know there was a problem like that with Burmese. Certainly with the Sphynx, the Russian Blue and to some extent the Selkirk Rex some people are really fussy who they sell to. Our friends found it hellishly difficult to get Sphynx cats on the active.

I think it's wrong for breeders to close the doors on new breeders - this doesn't widen the gene pool. Look what has happened to the Ocicat - they have terrible problems with inbreeding now.

Selling them for more money ensures that the ones that are dedicated to the breed will pay for good quality kittens and will only breed with suitable cats that are going to advance the beed - or at least not send it backwards.

Where we go wrong is allowing 'pets' to go out unneutered.  Contracts don't seem to work.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

My vets don't early neuter.... yet? hopefully this may change.


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

Have you rung round other vets?


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

too be honest not yet as i won't be requiring it for a long time but i will ring round at some point.


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## Desertstorm (Jan 19, 2008)

Hi...where I live, it is rare to find a breeder who bothers with papers...both in dogs and cats. Just because I do not register my cats does not mean that they are any less healthy or loved! Yes, there were papers back two or three generations but they were more hassle than they were worth. Cat shows are nonexistant and most people just want pets. I raise himalayians and no they are not registered. I love my cats and they are all pets raised underfoot. I am not in it for the money (I do not charge a large amount as people around here cannot afford that) . ... I have always had cats, raising several dsh kittens on a bottle spaying then and keeping them. What little income I get from my himmys helps to pay for food, vet bills etc for all of them....including a couple from a local shelter! There is a high demand for pet himmys with people neigher wanting or caring for papers. They just want a beautiful healty kitten...which mine are. I stand behind their health...papered or not. I bought a purebred Rottweiler last summer. I have still not received papers on her. Her parents were imported from Germany and I have the litter registration number but as yet...no papers. I am not panicking about that. I have the same beautiful pet...with or without papers! With all the red tape, it is little wonder that many breeders (at least in this area) have given up on the papers. Maybe the Canadian registry is different? There are many nice people out there who raise kittens in their homes. Sure, there may be socalled backyard breeders who are unscrupulous in their dealings...but please don't put all of them in the same class.....


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Just picking up on your point SK about why some breeders don't easily-if ever, open the door to new breeders-and allow them a girl/boy on the active, why should any breeder do this, when it's someone who isn't known and has put none of the effort in yet. As you know most breeders have worked hard to understand fully what they're doing and how and why they go down certain routes and not others to breed their chosen type of cat and also to build their reputation and for the Siamese breed at least-why would you allow any newbie-whom has come from no-where and you nor anyone else knows nothing about-when it's a real risk also that they could accidentally re-introduce bad lines,health and totally screw with what has taken generations to achieve or allow them an active girl/boy when they may not have grasped the reality's of breeding,they may not be capable with all the best will and love in the world of taking the best care of the cat and in one foul swoop can damage all your years of effort-and if someone is as serious as anyone can be about a particular breed then they will do what most worthy breeders do and earn their stripesPlus all the time,emotion and monies you lay out to ensure your cattery's health,temperament and show career=all this imo doesn't come on a please and the promise of a thankyou with a smile alone


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I personally don't think that there is a problem with people breeding unregistered kitten, as long as they have purchased their cats for breeding with the respective breeders consent for that and follow the same guidelines as a registered breeder ie not selling below 13 weeks old and having the kittens fully vaccinated prior to sale. 

If the kitten is healthy, vaccinated and well socialised and its pedigree is not misrepresented it makes no difference to a pet buyer that the kitten is registered or not? 

I can think of a few very unscrupulous breeders mass producing sickly, inbred, poorly socialised kittens who are hiding behind a registered prefix  Registration does not automatically guarantee that the breeder is good one. It should, but sadly it doesn't. Sadly it even gives a false credibility to those unscrupulous breeders.


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

> Just picking up on your point SK about why some breeders don't easily-if ever, open the door to new breeders-and allow them a girl/boy on the active, why should any breeder do this, when it's someone who isn't known and has put none of the effort in yet. As you know most breeders have worked hard to understand fully what they're doing and how and why they go down certain routes and not others to breed their chosen type of cat and also to build their reputation and for the Siamese breed at least-why would you allow any newbie-whom has come from no-where and you nor anyone else knows nothing about-when it's a real risk also that they could accidentally re-introduce bad lines,health and totally screw with what has taken generations to achieve or allow them an active girl/boy when they may not have grasped the reality's of breeding,they may not be capable with all the best will and love in the world of taking the best care of the cat and in one foul swoop can damage all your years of effort-and if someone is as serious as anyone can be about a particular breed then they will do what most worthy breeders do and earn their stripesPlus all the time,emotion and monies you lay out to ensure your cattery's health,temperament and show career=all this imo doesn't come on a please and the promise of a thankyou with a smile alone


So far I seem to have been lucky with the potential breeders that have come along. They have so far, without fail, asked if they could be mentored and guided - and they are all familiar with the breed, and the good lines, recognising well known breeders whose lines we discuss.

If I had someone come in without that attitude I would turn them away. Generally, though, the wannabe Bengal breeder is going to spend over a grand on their new kitten - so they want to do it right.


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## Desertstorm (Jan 19, 2008)

I agree Saikou...papers do not necessarily mean quality. With no actual blood dna test taken of each and every kitten produced, there is no way to prove parantage. The breeders reputation is all the prospective buyer has to go on. Noone knows what goes on behind closed doors. I have a cousin that has purbred registerd Birmans. (The only registered breeder I know of) She had two female babies flown in and later found out that their grandfather died of a heart problem....hereditary! Now she has to wait to have the kittens tested to ensure that they are not carrying that defect. She paid big bucks for these babies. Saying that only registered cats are fit to reproduce is like saying registered guns do not kill. Here in Canada all guns must be registered....in hopes it would stop people killing with them. It did not work, registered guns still kill, and the program has all but been scrapped. 
It is the friendly disposition, cleanliness and health that are most important to the people I sell to. Inbreeding has gone on in most purebreds and by allowing unregistered cats to breed a larger gene pool is created....the colour and conformation may not be perfect but to me and people in theses areas where there are no cat shows this is more than enough. In fact, our pet stores here offer mostly CROSSBRED kittens and puppies. (Puppies and kittens from two different breeds of purebreds....no papers.) They charge big bucks for these and they sell. These animals have been vet checked and are very healthy...not to mention beautiful. Our climate here is severe and like it or not sometimes cross bred animals are tougher and better able to withstand the extremes in weather that we experience. Most breeders here, raise their kittens underfoot...eg. box of kittens in the bedroom where they are well socialized and loved.....and yes, our vets care for and treat these babies like the cherished little fur people that they are....papers are not a concern or a priority. I do not inbreed or allow any outcrosses. Mine are simply Himalayians...unregistered.


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

SavannahKitten said:


> Wow. I didn't know there was a problem like that with Burmese. Certainly with the Sphynx, the Russian Blue and to some extent the Selkirk Rex some people are really fussy who they sell to. Our friends found it hellishly difficult to get Sphynx cats on the active.
> 
> I think it's wrong for breeders to close the doors on new breeders - this doesn't widen the gene pool. Look what has happened to the Ocicat - they have terrible problems with inbreeding now.
> 
> ...


I have found it extremely difficult to find a registered active Burmese female!
And some breeders like to tie you into a contract whereby you cant sell any of your kittens for breeding. They can only be sold for pets only


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

I think in Deserts case then she is a genuine breeder (papers or not!) but there are a lot of backstreet breeders (like the one who has been calling about the Siamese) whom are not interested in breeding properly at all.

It really maddens me  No doubt these kittens will end up in unloving homes, homeless or even mistreated!

I have seen and heard of many cases of "Backstreet" breeding and its completely unfair. There should be something put in place to prevent this happening. But I suppose they will always find a way round it??

To be honest, my mother in law breeds dogs and she was shocked at everything that needs to be considered and the processess of obtaining a breeding queen. She said it isnt so strict for dogs. I guess with cats its another way to stop "backstreet" breeding. Probably because a houseful of cats is easier to hide than a housefull of dogs! (big dogs anyway)

It seems that anyone can breed "moggies" and this also maddens me as this is why we end up with so many kitties without homes!
Its not so common with pedigrees because of the process to aquire and breed one.

Phew! Sorry about that guys - Moan Over!


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

It seems that anyone can breed "moggies" and this also maddens me as this is why we end up with so many kitties without homes!
Its not so common with pedigrees because of the process to aquire and breed one..........................
Saffron i for one am in total agreementAlthough as Kim quite rightly pointed out some byb's do hide behind a registered prefix,and kitten/cat families who know no better are they're perfect candidates,and i am totally against any form of byb whether registered or not-there are far too many unhomed and desperate cats as it is-pedigree and non


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Siamese Kelly said:


> It seems that anyone can breed "moggies" and this also maddens me as this is why we end up with so many kitties without homes!
> Its not so common with pedigrees because of the process to aquire and breed one..........................
> Saffron i for one am in total agreementAlthough as Kim quite rightly pointed out some byb's do hide behind a registered prefix,and kitten/cat families who know no better are they're perfect candidates,and i am totally against any form of byb whether registered or not-there are far too many unhomed and desperate cats as it is-pedigree and non


Definately Kelly! Just wish there was something we could do


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## Desertstorm (Jan 19, 2008)

Here in N.B. Canada, the shelters are full of unwanted cats and kittens. The vets here must accept some of the blame. This is a farming community with many cats. But when these farmers attempt to neuter and spay these cats, they find they are faced with vaccination fees before the vets will even consider surgery....let alone charging a higher spaying fee for a mature female. There are a few vets that will perform the surgeries at a reasonable price without vaccinating but they are few and far between. We had a feral female move into our horse stable. (We have a pair of Norwegian Fjord horses). She got pregnant and when my husband went to replace plank in the barn floor, he found two tiny kittens resting on a chip bag, on the dirt underneath. She did not come back to claim them, and I ended up bottlefeeding and raising them. Two weeks later we found two more, which I raised as well. I had bought a live trap in the meantime, and had tried all summer to catch her. I caught our own barn cat twice and a cat I never saw before once....but I could not catch her. Then, in the fall, she had 3 more kittens. She strewed these little ones around the yard in the frost covered grass at the age of 12 days. I bottlefed these as well. I kept 4 little females and they are now fat spayed couch potatoes.  My son has two of the males and a friend has another female. This cat I couldn't catch got pregnant again in the spring. Finally we noticed something hanging out of her. We managed to catch her (she was very sick) in the barn by plugging the cat hole. We took her to our vet, who donned long gloves, put her to sleep, examined her, found her to be full of dead kittens. We could not get medicine down her as she was wild as a bobcat....so the painful decision was made to ethunize her. The vet charged us $130.00....for a cat we did not own! It is no wonder so many unwanted cats are roaming the wild. People simply cannot afford the vet fees. I have heard it said that if breeders would discontinue breeding and raising purebreds, that it would help with this problem....but people know what they want....and sometimes a dsh just will not fill the bill. The minute that the demand ceases here for my Himmies, all will be spayed and neutered...but as long as people want my babies, I will raise a few, and believe me. not everyone gets my kittens. I am very careful who I sell to. They go to approved homes only. I also offer to take them back if problems arrise.


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Ds-obviously things are very different in Canada-but here in England-their is help and the means to spay/neuter animals whether you can afford it and even if you can't afford it-their are "free" or as good as vets who are more than willing to neuter/spay-especially with cats


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## Desertstorm (Jan 19, 2008)

I am very glad to hear that at least somewhere in the world there are compassionate vets. I doubt if the time ever comes when any of them here will offer surgery free. Most of them here are after nothing more than money, I am sad to say.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> I have found it extremely difficult to find a registered active Burmese female!


If you think that's difficult, just wait till you try to get a Burmese male!

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea at all if some breeders got together and decided to break the stranglehold. The trouble is it would need several breeders working together.

Oddly enough though, back in the days when I bred Burmese, as far as I know only three kittens ever went for breeding.

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> If you think that's difficult, just wait till you try to get a Burmese male!
> 
> I think it wouldn't be a bad idea at all if some breeders got together and decided to break the stranglehold. The trouble is it would need several breeders working together.
> 
> ...


I completely understand why its difficult tho - they are making sure that you are willing to jump through the hoops that they set to make sure that you are serious about breeding. I guess a lot of people may give up at the first hurdle!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> I completely understand why its difficult tho - they are making sure that you are willing to jump through the hoops that they set to make sure that you are serious about breeding. I guess a lot of people may give up at the first hurdle!


O yes, but with Burmese it seems that hardly anyone can actually get through the hurdles at all. I had some snooty breeder tell me - after I had been breeding and showing Burmese for three years or so - that there was no way she would have sold me a female on the active register until I had shown I was serious by showing a neuter. Well, those of us who are limited by space can only keep so many cats, and buying a kitten as a show neuter just means there is going to be a retired breeding queen later that you have to rehome, or a kitten you can't keep for breeding. I was very lucky (at the time I had no idea how lucky) that the breeder of my first Burmese was happy for me to breed from her.

Did you get your girl in the end?

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> O yes, but with Burmese it seems that hardly anyone can actually get through the hurdles at all. I had some snooty breeder tell me - after I had been breeding and showing Burmese for three years or so - that there was no way she would have sold me a female on the active register until I had shown I was serious by showing a neuter. Well, those of us who are limited by space can only keep so many cats, and buying a kitten as a show neuter just means there is going to be a retired breeding queen later that you have to rehome, or a kitten you can't keep for breeding. I was very lucky (at the time I had no idea how lucky) that the breeder of my first Burmese was happy for me to breed from her.
> 
> Did you get your girl in the end?
> 
> Liz


Well some of them just take it too far! I have had numerous phone calls (at length!!!!) with potential breeders. In the end I decided to go with my gut feeling and chose 2 breeders to have girls from and be my mentors (i could not decide between them both! lol)

I will be getting my first blue Burmese girl in July as she was only born last week and my breeder is brilliant and she will be my mentor too.

I will then be getting a second Chocolate Burmese girl from another breeder in Sept. And then also an Australian Mist (unsure of the colour yet) in Sept (providing the queen is pregnant - we are not sure if she is or not yet) lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> Well some of them just take it too far! I have had numerous phone calls (at length!!!!) with potential breeders. In the end I decided to go with my gut feeling and chose 2 breeders to have girls from and be my mentors (i could not decide between them both! lol)
> 
> I will be getting my first blue Burmese girl in July as she was only born last week and my breeder is brilliant and she will be my mentor too.
> 
> I will then be getting a second Chocolate Burmese girl from another breeder in Sept. And then also an Australian Mist (unsure of the colour yet) in Sept (providing the queen is pregnant - we are not sure if she is or not yet) lol


Whatever is an Australian mist?????


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

> The breed was developed by crossing the Burmese, Abyssinian, and Domestic shorthair cats to create a shorthaired cat with a spotted coat.


(Just pinched off the net)


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

OOh SK-i feel like i should sit up straight-your soo matter of fact-may i be excused now Do like it though!


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

That was just me being lazy - copy and paste time!

But you can sit up straight if you like - as long as you don't crush too many grapes in my direction!


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Really dunno what your infatuation is with grapes SKThey're not forgiving on indigestion ya know


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> Whatever is an Australian mist?????


Austrailian Mist is a new breed to the UK - there are only 24 Mists in the UK.
I have attached some pics. Im sure you will agree that they are gorgeous!!

You can also see 2 breeders websites with pictures on them. Just follow the links for the Mists   

Australian Mist & Maine Coons at Rumtumtugger Maine Coons Somerset UK
Jamcusa


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

SavannahKitten said:


> (Just pinched off the net)


Spot on Savannah - which makes them have a fantastic temperament


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

That's interesting. I take it they have no sort of GCCF recognition yet. is that going to be aimed for, and if so, how are breeders going to get round the Burmese BAC's new rule that says that no new breeds involving Burmese are going to be allowed unless they have agreed it first?

Liz


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## may (Nov 2, 2007)

xxSaffronxx said:


> Austrailian Mist is a new breed to the UK - there are only 24 Mists in the UK.
> I have attached some pics. Im sure you will agree that they are gorgeous!!
> 
> You can also see 2 breeders websites with pictures on them. Just follow the links for the Mists
> ...


They are gorgeous!!


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> That's interesting. I take it they have no sort of GCCF recognition yet. is that going to be aimed for, and if so, how are breeders going to get round the Burmese BAC's new rule that says that no new breeds involving Burmese are going to be allowed unless they have agreed it first?
> 
> Liz


I dont know the full ins and outs at the moment - i am still finding out information from the current breeders.

They are not GCCF recognised yet but hopeully once i get my queen i will help the other breders to gain the recognition. And i will then feel proud that I have contributed toward the recognition


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The breed progression stage is really great fun and if I were starting again from scratch, I'd certainly want to start with a breed that was still going through the process. How early you get in, is another issue - the very early years must be a long hard slog indeed. Once your breed has preliminary recognition and you can go to shows and get merit certificates then the fun stage has begun. It's just that the Burmese BAC seems to have become rather snooty about it, and also I think you may have a lot of difficulty persuading the GCCF that your new breed offers anything that isn't already offered by the Asian group. Some breeders of Burmese still don't like the Asian breeders despite the fact that our cats have had full championship status for more than a decade - I have heard of people wanting to buy breeding cats and being turned down because they bred Asians - even though they are very experienced breeders and Burmese are part of the Asian breeding programme.

But i wish you luck. The fact that the breed has full acceptance from soem other registering body will surely be a big help.

What first generation crosses are allowed - can you cross to both Burmese and Aby?

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> The breed progression stage is really great fun and if I were starting again from scratch, I'd certainly want to start with a breed that was still going through the process. How early you get in, is another issue - the very early years must be a long hard slog indeed. Once your breed has preliminary recognition and you can go to shows and get merit certificates then the fun stage has begun. It's just that the Burmese BAC seems to have become rather snooty about it, and also I think you may have a lot of difficulty persuading the GCCF that your new breed offers anything that isn't already offered by the Asian group. Some breeders of Burmese still don't like the Asian breeders despite the fact that our cats have had full championship status for more than a decade - I have heard of people wanting to buy breeding cats and being turned down because they bred Asians - even though they are very experienced breeders and Burmese are part of the Asian breeding programme.
> 
> But i wish you luck. The fact that the breed has full acceptance from soem other registering body will surely be a big help.
> 
> ...


Im not sure about the crossings just yet - again its something to discuss with my breeder.

They are curently at the showing stage as the breeder asked me if i would be willing to participate.
They are currently a recognised breed by Felis Britannica - dunno if that will heklp with the GCCF reg or not
I guess i will learn a lot more about this stuff with experience


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

I wouldn't get too fixated on the GCCF.
Do TICA accept them?


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Exactly SK,Tica and Fife are very good from all i've heard about them and great for someone who is new to shows


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, but there aren't many shows for those bodies, are there?

Liz


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

I don't know about FIFE, but TICA shows are growing in number all the time.


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

SavannahKitten said:


> I don't know about FIFE, but TICA shows are growing in number all the time.


Exactly and the more people that enter and attend the better,a lot of people have either never been-coz they think that because your cat can be made up in a day-it makes their titles somehow "cheap", definitley NOT the case at all or they haven't been for a ages and don't realise how much these shows have improved


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

SavannahKitten said:


> I wouldn't get too fixated on the GCCF.
> Do TICA accept them?


Yes i think TICA do accept them - and Fife


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Siamese Kelly said:


> Exactly and the more people that enter and attend the better,a lot of people have either never been-coz they think that because your cat can be made up in a day-it makes their titles somehow "cheap", definitley NOT the case at all or they haven't been for a ages and don't realise how much these shows have improved


My intention is the enter them and get the recognition


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm sure you and they will love it-and do very well


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Siamese Kelly said:


> I'm sure you and they will love it-and do very well


Never been to a cat show before and dont really know what to expect!
They are only once a month with the Mists though so its not too many really!
I was not sure if I was going to show my cats at all (although my intention was to attend at least one to see what its all about). But now I have decided on a Mist it looks like I will be showing my cats!


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## may (Nov 2, 2007)

Saikou said:


> I personally don't think that there is a problem with people breeding unregistered kitten, as long as they have purchased their cats for breeding with the respective breeders consent for that and follow the same guidelines as a registered breeder ie not selling below 13 weeks old and having the kittens fully vaccinated prior to sale.
> 
> I must say this statement came as a surprise
> If kittens were sold for breeding they would be on the active reg ,
> ...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

There are only two circumstances, as far as I can see, where you could possibly buy a kitten with the breeder's consent for breeding. The first case would be a kitten on the active register - in which case obviously there is no problem. The second case would be if you purchased an unregistered kitten in which case the breeder has absolutely no comeback. 

I suppose it is possible to buy an unregistered kitten which is strictly not to be bred from, but that would only apply to kittens purchased from bona fide rescue organisations such as Cats Protection.

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

may said:


> Saikou said:
> 
> 
> > I personally don't think that there is a problem with people breeding unregistered kitten, as long as they have purchased their cats for breeding with the respective breeders consent for that and follow the same guidelines as a registered breeder ie not selling below 13 weeks old and having the kittens fully vaccinated prior to sale.
> ...


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

I personally don't think that there is a problem with people breeding unregistered kitten, as long as they have purchased their cats for breeding with the respective breeders consent for that and follow the same guidelines as a registered breeder ie not selling below 13 weeks old and having the kittens fully vaccinated prior to sale.

If the kitten is healthy, vaccinated and well socialised and its pedigree is not misrepresented it makes no difference to a pet buyer that the kitten is registered or not?
I disagree with this top statement Kim and for the second i think then it is up to the breeder to explain why papers are relevant whether the kitten is pet or show-and i too am shocked that you have this viewAs an ethical breeder yourself i'd have expected you to have a better understanding than most why unregistered kittens is wrong on every level but you have your views and you may have reasons for them


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

I rang a lady who is a registered breeder and she offered me registered and non registered kittens,what would be the purpose of this?if both parents are registered why would a breeder want to not register the kittens?is it purley so they can breed a particular cat more than they should?bit puzzled on this one


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

clare7577 said:


> I rang a lady who is a registered breeder and she offered me registered and non registered kittens,what would be the purpose of this?if both parents are registered why would a breeder want to not register the kittens?is it purley so they can breed a particular cat more than they should?bit puzzled on this one


Maybe it is offered just because an unregistered is cheaper? And maybe "pet owners" arent really bothered about papers if they are not going to show / breed them.
Therefore the breeder is offering the buyer a cheaper alternative??? 
Just a thought 

But as you say Clare it could be that she is breeding more than she should be 
Or that she has 2 queens (one registered and one un-registered) and therefore 2 litters??


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

OK so what does a registration paper give you? What guarantees? The kitten is healthy - no, its not inbred - no, thats its parents are as stated on the form - no - DNA testing is the only way to ensure that, that its free from faults - no, that it matches the SOP for the breed - no. 

I choose to register my kittens, but thats a personal choice, I certainly wouldn't look to condemn someone who didn't want to register a litter of kittens they had, if they had fulfilled all the criteria I listed. Its not all about paperwork, its about the cats/kittens surely

There are many 'breeders' churning out kittens where either the mother or father or both was not sold for breeding, the kittens are sickly, sold before they should be unvaccinated, unsocialised etc and no way do I condone such a breeder, infact I would hesitate to call that person a breeder, but all I am saying is that stereo type does not fit everyone that chooses not to register their kittens. Just the same way that a breeder with a registered prefix does not necessarily make them a good breeder or their kittens of a higher standard.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

I bred un registered kittens, from un registered parents,bought as un registered cats, do any of these look sickly ????
It annoys me a bit that people assume that kittens bred from breeders like me are sickly,weak,and ill.Ive never had a sick one yet!


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

The reason people think like that is because they think people that aren't going to go to the bother or expense of registering kittens aren't going to go to the bother or expense of making sure they're kept clean, comfortable and well fed. Some unregistered breeders stick their cats/dogs in sheds at the bottom of gardens to get on with it, and you all get tarred with the same brush.

Even if you take really good care of your cats, why risk buying a cat whose pedigree you cannot be sure of that may or may not pass on defective genes to kittens? It doesn't make sense how you can care in one way, but not in another.


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

SavannahKitten said:


> The reason people think like that is because they think people that aren't going to go to the bother or expense of registering kittens aren't going to go to the bother or expense of making sure they're kept clean, comfortable and well fed. Some unregistered breeders stick their cats/dogs in sheds at the bottom of gardens to get on with it, and you all get tarred with the same brush.
> 
> Even if you take really good care of your cats, why risk buying a cat whose pedigree you cannot be sure of that may or may not pass on defective genes to kittens? It doesn't make sense how you can care in one way, but not in another.


Im afraid I have to agree with Savannah. I would not buy a breeding queen from a breeder whom did not register her - for the same reasons that Savannah has pointed out.
Although you may love the cats just as much as any other breeder, it can be perceived that you are not bothered.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I wouldn&#8217;t have thought the cost of registration per kitten is a huge factor, I can not remember what a admin prefix reg costs, but added to the cost of a kitten it's not great. I just think it's freedom of choice. I choose to register others don&#8217;t, but that doesn&#8217;t necessarily make them a bad breeder or their kittens of poor quality.

Registration alone definitely does not guarantee the parentage of the kitten, the GCCF certainly couldn&#8217;t ascertain that the parents of the kitten were not as stated on it's registration form, unless the kitten is a colour/pattern that could not be produced by those parents, it&#8217;s taken on trust that the person completing the form is honest. It doesn&#8217;t guarantee they are free from genetic faults either. I was sold a registered, active breeding queen for show with a heart murmur, which when discovered on a routine trip to the vets at 4 1/2mth two vets told me would have been there since birth and I later found out was a well know fault passed on by her father who had been at stud for the past 4 years. Needless to say she was spayed, but someone else may have decided to breed from her, it was only a minor murmur. I wasn&#8217;t told about the murmur or the hereditary factor. I loved her to bits and didn&#8217;t care that she couldn&#8217;t have kittens, but she was registered yet I had no guarantees.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

clare7577 said:


> I rang a lady who is a registered breeder and she offered me registered and non registered kittens,what would be the purpose of this?if both parents are registered why would a breeder want to not register the kittens?is it purley so they can breed a particular cat more than they should?bit puzzled on this one


There is no rule that I am aware of about frequency of breeding. it's far more likely that she simply has an unregistered pedigree cat as well as registered ones and breeds from both.

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

A GCCF admin application cost is £60 and then for each registered kitten its £6.
If you dont have a prefix then its £12

Im not saying that non-registered cats are not well looked after or of any better quality than a registered one. But you usually find a lot of back street breeders doing this which is why unfortunately all non-registered breeders get tarred with the same brush and its a shame as this is not always the case.

Personally I make sure that my breeders have been recommended and I also speak to other people AND the GCCF to ensure that I am making the right choice in breeder. I guess it helps with peace of mind.
I also like to do a lot of research into the ancestry of my new queen, previous litters etc. etc. etc.

I dont believe you can base your decision purely on the fact of whether the cat is registered or non-registered. There is much more to it than just that as I have explained


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I have to agree with you about purchasing a non registered cat for breeding, I wouldn't do that, because I want to register my kittens, and show them if they are good enough. For a pet kitten though, I don't think I would mind.


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I have to agree with you about purchasing a non registered cat for breeding, I wouldn't do that, because I want to register my kittens, and show them if they are good enough. For a pet kitten though, I don't think I would mind.


I wouldnt mind for a pet either! I have 2 moggies


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

I bred un registered kittens, from un registered parents,bought as un registered cats, do any of these look sickly ????
It annoys me a bit that people assume that kittens bred from breeders like me are sickly,weak,and ill.Ive never had a sick one yet!
It annoys a bit that people such as your good self whom i have no doubt love their cats and care for them in the best way poss-but as said registered cats/kitts offers no guarantee's but it's a start in that as much as it goes on common sense and instincts-you do at least have access to their background-you have 0 chance of this with unregistered cats/kitts and for all you know could be unintentionally filling up further rehoming centres-you yourself Clare did say after food for thought with various posts you agreed and was going to spay/neuter your present fur gang


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

Let's just clear something up here - are we talking about kittens that haven't been registered with the GCCF by a registered breeder for whatever reason - or are we talking about kittens that have no paperwork whatsoever?

Because I thought we were talking about people that go and buy a kitten that they are told is purebred, but has no papers at all - that means no pedigree papers and the kitten is not registered.

If you buy a kitten sold with no papers at all, you don't know what you are getting in terms of hereditary defects or whether the cat is in fact purebred, and not a cat that just looks quite a bit like a purebred cat.


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

If you buy a kitten sold with no papers at all, you don't know what you are getting in terms of hereditary defects or whether the cat is in fact purebred, and not a cat that just looks quite a bit like a purebred cat
Exactly!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

SavannahKitten said:


> Let's just clear something up here - are we talking about kittens that haven't been registered with the GCCF by a registered breeder for whatever reason - or are we talking about kittens that have no paperwork whatsoever?


I think either, although in the case of a kitten with no paperwork whatsoever then you can not call that kitten pedigree and it would be wrong to represent it as such in an advert. If the parents, however, have pedigrees but you chose not to register your kittens then, that kitten is still a pedigree just an unregistered one. I would see a problem if a kitten was misrepresented as being a pedigree when it wasn't, but if not and it full fills all the other criteria for health etc then for a pet buyer non registered is not an issue.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

i've bought kittens from registered breeders full pedigree etc and were horribly ill. the person had 9 stud cats and loads of queens. at the time i was ignorant to the rules that came with buying ped cats and i was sold them at 8 weeks old. they were in a right state. 

it's sad registered breeders or unreg can get away with this.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

can't you just declare a kitten with the GCCF and not register it?


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

it's sad registered breeders or unreg can get away with this.
Totally agree Fluffy


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

i've reported 2 breeders to the gccf, went through long procedures and NOTHING happened. Makes me mad. I think the gccf should have an inspector come check out your set up once a year, a spot check or something.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

fluffypurrs said:


> can't you just declare a kitten with the GCCF and not register it?


Yes, but you can't declare a whole litter, if you want to declare any you have to register at least one.

Liz


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Fluffy-did you report also to RSPCA?


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

fluffypurrs said:


> i've reported 2 breeders to the gccf, went through long procedures and NOTHING happened. Makes me mad. I think the gccf should have an inspector come check out your set up once a year, a spot check or something.


Im annoyed that the GCCF didnt do anything about it


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Rang the RSPCA local ones to these breeders but they said they'd look into it, but i don't think they did. kind of gave up. was a while ago now. maybe something happened because one breeder has given up!


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

fluffypurrs said:


> Rang the RSPCA local ones to these breeders but they said they'd look into it, but i don't think they did. kind of gave up. was a while ago now. maybe something happened because one breeder has given up!


I guess thats something fluffy!


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Fluffy-you have t be like a dog with a bone and a child on a blag-don't let it go and outsmart them


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