# Crufts winner :(



## Loopylola

Hi.... If caused un earned offence in this post so have edited it...
Sorry


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## shetlandlover

How disrespectful to call someones dog awful looking.:mad5:

Are you a judge? 
Have you experience in a wide range of breeds?

If not then you have no right to say such a thing. The dog in question although is not a breed to my taste is a nice dog, fits the standard and is clearly a happy, loved dog. 

We all have breeds we want to have won but we are not the judges. It's very rude and nasty to call someones dog awful.:frown2:


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## Loopylola

It's my own opinion I don't expect everyone to agree with me...


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## shetlandlover

Loopylola said:


> It's my own opinion I don't expect everyone to agree with me...


I don't think anyone will agree with you calling someones dog awful.


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## newfiesmum

A member on here has two Bassett Griffons so I hope she doesn't see your post and get upset. I am not into small dogs and I think the Bernese should have won, but the winner was in my opinion a very nice looking little dog.

I thought the labrador was too fat to be honest. I am always reading complaints about people letting their labs get fat, and now they will be sure all the others are too skinny.


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## JAChihuahua

Loopylola said:


> Hi....
> 
> Just wanted to post this to let everyone know how angry I am at who won crufts...... What a awful looking dog.
> The lab should have won and the mountain dog should have come second!
> 
> Sorry about the outburst but I really don't get it and everyone in the house is sick of me moaning at them haha


wow! How nasty to call someone elses dog awful looking.

To be honest this is what I was thinking when I saw the lab "what a fat monstrosity, he looks nothing like the working labs I grew up with". However would I call that to the dog itself (who looked pleased as punch to be there and was jumping around in excitement) or its owner (who seemed chuffed to bits with his placing!)? Hell no!

Yes yes, I realise I just "did", but that was to illustrate my point... its rude its nasty and its not how members of this forum should want to be reflecting themselves!


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## dougal22

I thought the winner was absolutely lovely 

I'm not a doggie person at all, I know NOTHING about dogs; felines float my boat, but as I have flu, I'm watching more TV than normal and Crufts caught my eye. 

I'm really glad I watched it. There were some gorgeous dogs on there. 

ps - I don't like it when cat breeds get 'dissed' so I can imagine if anyone has the breed that won Crufts, it won't be very nice to read the opening post


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## Mese

Who won ?
I havent seen any of it so havent a clue 

I do agree with SL though , its not very nice to call any animal awful looking


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## newfiesmum

Mese said:


> Who won ?
> I havent seen any of it so havent a clue
> 
> I do agree with SL though , its not very nice to call any animal awful looking


It was a bassett griffon, can't remember her name. It seems she has already won everything else.


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## Loopylola

I really don't want to offend anybody and I'm sorry if it seems that way.... Maybe I worded it all wrong.....

I apologise for any offensive I've caused to anybody 

Sorry


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## Mese

newfiesmum said:


> It was a bassett griffon, can't remember her name. It seems she has already won everything else.


I had to google a piccie as ive never heard of that breed before , they are adorable :001_wub:


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## missRV

By the way, welcome to the forum  

When the bichon and the Tibetan spaniel didn't win in their category (and of course the Glen of Imaal Terrier) I was disappointed but those 3 dogs are 3 of my favourite breeds. I thought the winner was stunning. 

Saying that, I'll openly admit to not knowing that much about dogs. I go by how pretty they are and how happy they appear


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## Loopylola

I have tried to delete this thread as obviously has offended a lot of people which was never my intention..... If someone could tell me how to delete it I will

Cheers


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## Mese

Loopylola said:


> I have tried to delete this thread as obviously has offended a lot of people which was never my intention..... If someone could tell me how to delete it I will
> 
> Cheers


I dont think you can only a MOD can , but I wouldnt worry about it hun , we all have differing opinions on things and as long as we all stay respectful of each other it'll be just fine


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## Sled dog hotel

Loopylola said:


> I really don't want to offend anybody and I'm sorry if it seems that way.... Maybe I worded it all wrong.....
> 
> I apologise for any offensive I've caused to anybody
> 
> Sorry


You cant delete the thread only a Mod can, but you can go in and edit your opening post and reword it. As the title is only Crufts winner it wont matter
so much about that.


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## Freyja

You obviously don't know the breed and what it should be like. She is a lovely dog and I doubt the countless judges who have rated her so highly during her show career would be wrong. To have already won RBIS in 2011 and now to go BIS is an incredible achievement. She has also been BIS at the hound association champ show in 2011 and won numerouse other top awards.


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## JordanRose

I don't know much about dogs either, I'm still learning. I've been watching Crufts to get a taster of breeds (although I reckon I'll end up with an old, oddly mixed cross from a rescue somewhere... ).

I'll be honest and say I didn't think she was the prettiest in the line up (I loved the Bernese, Tibetan and the Australian Sheepdog :001_wub: ) however, she was the one that looked the happiest in the ring. 

She was loving it and I for one, am chuffed for her owner!


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## Kicksforkills

I am _not_ going to hear the end of this from my buddy who has a show dog of the Grand variation tomorrow at agility class


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## Wiz201

I didn't think the lab was fat, I was enjoying watching it show lovely and it enjoyed being in the ring, as well as the Basset Griffon Vendeen. That's my opinion of it all


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## dexter

well i'm chuffed because the Rough Collie that got BOB today, i'd awarded her BOB at a club show over 4 years ago


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## labradrk

Why would anyone be "angry" about the dog who won Crufts? it is a little worrying if you get angry over something like that. Especially when the dog was such a beautiful, happy little soul....what a horrid thing to say.


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## DKDREAM

Very well deserved Gilly is a lovely dog, she has won so much in her show life, she won her class 3 times group twice and best in show and reserve at crufts alone, that in its self speaks volumes.


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## Kitty_pig

I thought she was lovely nice to see a dog with a cheeky little personality do so well. Ive never come across that breed before but think she was a well deserving champ :biggrin:


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## Holtie

Each to their own 

You may not have agreed with the winner of the show but the judges have their reasons.

Although the original thread post was worded a little harshly and obviously not your choice of dog, that is *your* opinion and I am sure you wouldn't like it if someone had the audacity to say that about your dog.



Everyone on here has feelings


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## Pixieandbow

I thought she was beautiful


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## findley

Soletrader Peek A Boo, worthy winner in fact I think they all showed well in the final this year. Well done and congratulations.


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## newfiesmum

labradrk said:


> Why would anyone be "angry" about the dog who won Crufts? it is a little worrying if you get angry over something like that. Especially when the dog was such a beautiful, happy little soul....what a horrid thing to say.


I was a little miffed last year when the Best in Show was a little Llahso Apso and the Reserve and wonderful, huge, cuddly newfie!

He should have won. But that is my taste, huge great hairy bears. The judges know what they are doing.


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## koekemakranka

Never heard of this breed so googled. She is adorable! Very nice looking dog IMO. Just goes to show, tastes differ.


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## newfiesmum

koekemakranka said:


> Never heard of this breed so googled. She is adorable! Very nice looking dog IMO. Just goes to show, tastes differ.


A member on here has two if I am not mistaken, named Elsie and Doris.


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## dexter

thought More4 did a brilliant job of covering the show, shame we didn't get to see all the pastoral group move but nevermind. well done to all winners


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## hutch6

I don't care who I offend or how much I know about "breeds", it doesn't take a genius to be amazed and dumbfounded that two representatives of a breed should look like they did and get placed so highly.

First off, is it laid out in the breed standard for the Cav King Charles that they should be able to sniff their own eyes and struggle eating or breathing? What a ******* disgrace of a dog. How is that even appealing or god forbid functional of any dog? It really shows off what is so bad about dog shows - removing the purpose of the dog and subjecting them to a life of struggle and severly resitricting their abilities. Would you actually buy this dog or any offspring it produced? I don't think my bank accolutn could handle the insurance and vet fees and I certainly wouldn't subject a dog to such suffering or life of restricted acitivity as it can't bloody breath.

Crufts 2013 BiB:









It looks like one of those Chinese Lions.

Crufts 1973 Best In Show:










In just 40yrs how can this confirmation change so much if it managed to win the whole bleeding show? How can the "deformaties" to this years Best in Breed not be not noticed?

This is how they should be as they can breath and enjoy a decent standard of life not struggling for air or struggling to eat their own food.










As for the Lab that was awarded reserve or 2nd best in Show or whatever. WTF can that dog in the field? What purpose does it serve? It was just a lump of fat in a labrador outift. Seriously could this dog swim in a current dragging a line or jump a fence to retrieve a bird? Could it cover three miles let alone do a full day's work on a shoot? Best in breed and runner-up best in show, that judge must be having a laugh and never been anywhere near a shoot in his life so how can he judge what makes a quality working dog? All that makes is a good draught excluder and food hoover, that's it. What a joke.

Crufts 2013 Reserve Best in Show:









Seriously, out of all of the working breeds this was deemed to be able to carry out the job is was designed to do better than any of the other breedsa nd examples? What was the job the judges had in mind - sofa tester? Food tester? Watching it waddle and wobble its way around the ring made you think "this is the only exercise this dog has had in its life". Do these folk a shot putter can win the 1500m, they just haven't entered the race as yet? Still, a good advert for Eukanuba - "Your dog will not starve on our food".

An actual working lab:










Breed for purpose not for asthetics, it's a disgrace it really is.


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## Dingle

hutch6 said:


> I don't care who I offend or how much I know about "breeds", it doesn't take a genius to be amazed and dumbfounded that two representatives of a breed should look like they did and get placed so highly.
> 
> First off, is it laid out in the breed standard for the Cav King Charles that they should be able to sniff their own eyes and struggle eating or breathing? What a ******* disgrace of a dog. How is that even appealing or god forbid functional of any dog? It really shows off what is so bad about dog shows - removing the purpose of the dog and subjecting them to a life of struggle and severly resitricting their abilities. Would you actually buy this dog or any offspring it produced? I don't think my bank accolutn could handle the insurance and vet fees and I certainly wouldn't subject a dog to such suffering or life of restricted acitivity as it can't bloody breath.
> 
> Crufts 2013 BiB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like one of those Chinese Lions.
> 
> Crufts 1973 Best In Show:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In just 40yrs how can this confirmation change so much if it managed to win the whole bleeding show? How can the "deformaties" to this years Best in Breed not be not noticed?
> 
> This is how they should be as they can breath and enjoy a decent standard of life not struggling for air or struggling to eat their own food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Lab that was awarded reserve or 2nd best in Show or whatever. WTF can that dog in the field? What purpose does it serve? It was just a lump of fat in a labrador outift. Seriously could this dog swim in a current dragging a line or jump a fence to retrieve a bird? Could it cover three miles let alone do a full day's work on a shoot? Best in breed and runner-up best in show, that judge must be having a laugh and never been anywhere near a shoot in his life so how can he judge what makes a quality working dog? All that makes is a good draught excluder and food hoover, that's it. What a joke.
> 
> Crufts 2013 Reserve Best in Show:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, out of all of the working breeds this was deemed to be able to carry out the job is was designed to do better than any of the other breedsa nd examples? What was the job the judges had in mind - sofa tester? Food tester? Watching it waddle and wobble its way around the ring made you think "this is the only exercise this dog has had in its life". Do these folk a shot putter can win the 1500m, they just haven't entered the race as yet? Still, a good advert for Eukanuba - "Your dog will not starve on our food".
> 
> An actual working lab:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breed for purpose not for asthetics, it's a disgrace it really is.


Totally agree... just look at the state of the GSD as another poor example of show breeding gone mad


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## simplysardonic

Hutch, that's a King Charles spaniel, not a Cavalier King Charles spaniel, they're a different breed altogether


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## dexter

simplysardonic said:


> Hutch, that's a King Charles spaniel, not a Cavalier King Charles spaniel, they're a different breed altogether


lol.  . say no more


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## MrRustyRead

well they are going to look completely different when your first picture is of a KC and the second two are of a CKC haha


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## Kiwi

The Australian Shepherd was my favourite but I thought all the finalists deserved to be there  Although.....if my black lab Boo now thinks she too aught to be developing 'chunky' features, she is going to be sorely disappointed :nonod:


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## hutch6

simplysardonic said:


> Hutch, that's a King Charles spaniel, not a Cavalier King Charles spaniel, they're a different breed altogether





dexter said:


> lol.  . say no more





MrRustyRead said:


> well they are going to look completely different when your first picture is of a KC and the second two are of a CKC haha


   I did say "I don't know much about breeds" so I am excluded from ridicule thank you very much. I'll leave it up there for further digs and ribbing.

So the difference is that a cavalier king charles can see the end of its nose and a king charlse spaniel can sniff it's eyes. Got it.   

I stand by my lab comments though with a very serious face and rigid posture.


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## MrRustyRead

hutch6 said:


> I did say "I don't know much about breeds" so I am excluded from ridicule thank you very much. I'll leave it up there for further digs and ribbing.
> 
> So the difference is that a cavalier king charles can see the end of its nose and a king charlse spaniel can sniff it's eyes. Got it.
> 
> I stand by my lab comments though with a very serious face and rigid posture.


well actually its not fair to make judgement and criticism on a breed you "dont know much about", i dont know anything about the breed so i dont wish to pass judgement on it.


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## simplysardonic

hutch6 said:


> I did say "I don't know much about breeds" so I am excluded from ridicule thank you very much. I'll leave it up there for further digs and ribbing.
> 
> So the difference is that a cavalier king charles can see the end of its nose and a king charlse spaniel can sniff it's eyes. Got it.
> 
> I stand by my lab comments though with a very serious face and rigid posture.


No ridicule here, just pointing stuff out


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## hutch6

MrRustyRead said:


> well actually its not fair to make judgement and criticism on a breed you "dont know much about", i dont know anything about the breed so i dont wish to pass judgement on it.


You're right, it still looks like it would be struggling to breath though.


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## Lurcherlad

MrRustyRead said:


> well actually its not fair to make judgement and criticism on a breed you "dont know much about", i dont know anything about the breed so i dont wish to pass judgement on it.


Whaaat? So we can only give our opinion on something about which we are considered to be an expert? 

Shoot me now - I have nothing to say :huh::huh: 

Better close the forum too .......... :wink:


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## jenniferx

I think a lot of people are uncomfortable about very brachycephalic breeds irrespective of whether or not they are "supposed" to look that way according to breed standards.


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## JulieNoob

Have you had your hands on that Lab to know its fat?

Labs are not supposed to be lean and lanky dogs. The winner also had a correct double coat which is lacking in so many Labradors.

I'm amazed at the number of people who can judge from just a short TV appearance ....

Have you ever read the Lab breed standard and the reasons why it is as it is?


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## MrRustyRead

Lurcherlad said:


> Whaaat? So we can only give our opinion on something about which we are considered to be an expert?
> 
> Shoot me now - I have nothing to say :huh::huh:
> 
> Better close the forum too .......... :wink:


actually opinions passed without knowledge can prove dangerous and harmful


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## Lurcherlad

MrRustyRead said:


> actually opinions passed without knowledge can prove dangerous and harmful


only if you're a numpty 

Anyone with half a brain can work things out for themselves. I can't believe people are that stupid


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## MrRustyRead

Lurcherlad said:


> only if you're a numpty
> 
> Anyone with half a brain can work things out for themselves. I can't believe people are that stupid


actually not, its very common place with looking after tortoises to be told to keep them in a viv and feed them cucumber, lettuce and tomato. and guess what? these can prove fatal to them as its incorrect information.


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## hutch6

JulieNoob said:


> Have you had your hands on that Lab to know its fat?
> 
> Labs are not supposed to be lean and lanky dogs. The winner also had a correct double coat which is lacking in so many Labradors.
> 
> I'm amazed at the number of people who can judge from just a short TV appearance ....
> 
> Have you ever read the Lab breed standard and the reasons why it is as it is?


I don't need to have my hands on something to realise it can't put in a day's work every day of a season be it fishing or shooting when it waddles and wobbles around when it walks.

From the Breed Standard:

Good-tempered, very agile (which precludes excessive body weight or excessive substance). Excellent nose, soft mouth; keen love of water. Adaptable, devoted companion.

I take it that these dogs are taken through obstacle courses, scurries and a whole other manner of tests to determine which fits the criteria the best rather than just stood, poked, prodded, stroked and then trotted around a small area for all of ten seconds.

This is supposed to be the cremé de la cremé of all of the working breeds and all of the dogs within those breeds. Surely on that title alone it should be able to day's graft at the very least.

I'd never make it as a working dog judge as I see a dog not fit for purpose in that picture and what the cameras showed where as others who have years of experience judging other dogs, that are probably not fit for purpose as well, will choose what looks nice and not what it is capable of doing.


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## Lurcherlad

MrRustyRead said:


> actually not, its very common place with looking after tortoises to be told to keep them in a viv and feed them cucumber, lettuce and tomato. and guess what? these can prove fatal to them as its incorrect information.


That is completely different to someone giving an opinion on the look of a particular breed of dog though isn't it?

Giving an opinion like that is completely different to giving advice on something.

But I reiterate, most of the people who post on this forum cannot be considered as experts, but freely give their opinion on a range of subjects. Some are extremely knowledgeable and talk a lot of sense, some talk out of their ar*e. But, they are all entitled to have their say.

If someone is looking for advice then I would hope they would listen to a variety of people, do their own research, read books, speak to the vet, etc. Of course, there are always numpties who will do none of the above but nothing will change that.


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## MrRustyRead

Lurcherlad said:


> That is completely different to someone giving an opinion on the look of a particular breed of dog though isn't it?
> 
> Giving an opinion like that is completely different to giving advice on something.
> 
> But I reiterate, most of the people who post on this forum cannot be considered as experts, but freely give their opinion on a range of subjects. Some are extremely knowledgeable and talk a lot of sense, some talk out of their ar*e. But, they are all entitled to have their say.
> 
> If someone is looking for advice then I would hope they would listen to a variety of people, do their own research, read books, speak to the vet, etc. Of course, there are always numpties who will do none of the above but nothing will change that.


I agree, i was simply saying it was unfair to judge a breed when in fact the breed in question was being judged on multiple images that werent of the same breed.


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## Honeys mum

There is a vast differance in apperance of a show dog and a working dog, 
their is also a saying in the show world, you shouldn't comment on a dog until youve had your hands on it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there's a a differance in looking at a dog on T.V and judging it in the ring.


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## delca1

I thought the winner was lovely 

In my humble opinion I also thought that a lot of the dogs looked like they were carrying a bit more weight than they should  Now to run and hide.....


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## Sled dog hotel

hutch6 said:


> I don't care who I offend or how much I know about "breeds", it doesn't take a genius to be amazed and dumbfounded that two representatives of a breed should look like they did and get placed so highly.
> 
> First off, is it laid out in the breed standard for the Cav King Charles that they should be able to sniff their own eyes and struggle eating or breathing? What a ******* disgrace of a dog. How is that even appealing or god forbid functional of any dog? It really shows off what is so bad about dog shows - removing the purpose of the dog and subjecting them to a life of struggle and severly resitricting their abilities. Would you actually buy this dog or any offspring it produced? I don't think my bank accolutn could handle the insurance and vet fees and I certainly wouldn't subject a dog to such suffering or life of restricted acitivity as it can't bloody breath.
> 
> Crufts 2013 BiB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like one of those Chinese Lions.


Have to agree with Hutch, wether a Cavalier King Chares or a King Charles the Dog is a Brachycephalic breed. With the breeding comes its problems.



> DOGS WITH SPECIAL FACES
> 
> Most people are not familiar with the term "Brachycephalic," but if you own a Pug, Boston Terrier, Pekingese, Boxer, Bulldog, Shih tzu or any one of the other breeds with "pushed in" faces, you should become familiar with this word. The word comes from Greek roots "Brachy," meaning short and "cephalic," meaning head.
> 
> Brachycephalic dogs have been bred so as to possess a normal lower jaw, that is, one in proportion to their body size, and a compressed upper jaw. In producing this cosmetic appearance, we have compromised these animals in many important ways and you, as an owner, must be familiar with the special needs of your pet.
> 
> THE RESPIRATORY SYSTEM
> 
> Brachycephalic breeds are characterized by "brachycephalic respiratory syndrome," which affects the different areas of the respiratory tract. Fortunately, most dogs do not suffer from all aspects of the syndrome but you should be aware of which your particular pet may have.
> 
> STENOTIC NARES - This is a fancy name for narrowed nostrils. The brachycephalic dogs begins by having very small nasal openings for breathing. If this is severe, surgical correction is possible.
> 
> ELONGATED SOFT PALATE - It is difficult to fit the soft tissues of the canine mouth and throat into the brachycephalic's short face. As a result, the soft palate, which separates nasal passage from oral cavity, flaps loosely down into the throat creating snorting sounds. Virtually all brachycephalics suffer from this but actual respiratory distress is rare except in English Bulldogs. The English Bulldog tends to have more severe symptoms in almost all aspects of brachycephalic syndrome. Excess barking or panting may lead to swelling in the throat which can, in turn, lead to trouble. Again, the soft palate can be surgically trimmed.
> 
> TRACHEAL STENOSIS - The brachycephalic dog's windpipe may be dangerously narrowed in places. This condition creates tremendous anesthetic risk and should be ruled out by chest radiographs prior to any surgical procedures.
> 
> EVERTED LARYNGEAL SACCULES - The normal larynx has two small pockets called ventricles or saccules. When a dog has increased effort in breathing, over time these little pockets will actually turn inside out inside the throat. When this occurs, the protuberances need to be surgically snipped. In fact, this finding indicates that surgery for the stenotic nares and elongated soft palate is also warranted lest it progress to a full laryngeal collapse.
> 
> HEAT STRESS - Because of all these upper respiratory obstructions, the brachycephalic dog is an inefficient panter. A dog with a more conventional face and throat is able to pass air quickly over the tongue through panting. Saliva evaporates from the tongue as air is passed across and the blood circulating through the tongue is efficiently cooled and circulated back to the rest of the body.
> 
> In the brachycephalic dog, so much extra work is required to move the same amount of air that the airways become inflamed and swollen. This leads to a more severe obstruction, distress, and further over-heating.
> 
> BRACHYCEPHALIC DOGS ARE THE MOST
> LIKELY CANDIDATES FOR HEAT STROKE.
> 
> Altogether, the upper airways of the brachycephalic dog compromises his or her ability to take in air. Under normal conditions the compromise is not great enough to cause a problem; however, an owner should take care not to let the dog become grossly overweight or get too hot in the summer months. Be aware of what degree of snorting and sputtering is usual for your individual pet plus, should your pet require general anesthesia or sedation, your vet may want to take extra precautions or take radiographs prior to assess the severity of the syndrome. Anesthetic risk is higher than usual in these breeds, though under most circumstances the necessary extra precautions are readily managed by most animal hospitals.
> 
> To be clear, brachycephalic syndrome can be progressive if it is not corrected at an early stage. Severely affected dogs can actually experience collapse of the larynx and require a permanent tracheostomy (a hole in the throat for breathing).
> 
> EYE PROBLEMS
> 
> With most of the nasal bones compacted, brachycephalic dogs tend to have trouble with the way their eyes seat in their heads.
> 
> First, recognize the prominence of the eyes on these dogs. The boney eye sockets are very shallow. This means that any blow to the back of the head, even a fairly minor one, can cause an eye to pop from its socket and require surgical replacement. This can happen also with too much pulling against the leash if the pet is wearing a collar. You may wish to consider a harness for your pet.
> 
> Sometimes, the eyes are so prominent that the lids cannot close all the way over the eyes. This will lead to irritation and drying of the center of the eye unless surgical correction is performed. If you cannot tell by watching your pet blink, watch as your pet sleeps. Dogs who sleep without closing their eyes all the way could do with surgical correction.
> 
> Eyelid problems are common in these breeds. Look for persistent wetness around the eyes. In some dogs, the shape of the eyelids prevents normal tear drainage and there is an overflow. This problem cannot be corrected surgically and is not uncomfortable for the pet; however, there is a more serious condition which looks similar. This second condition involves the rolling inward of the eyelids such that the lashes rub on the eye. Surgery may be needed to correct this problem.
> 
> Chronic irritation will show as a pigmented area on the eye surface, especially on the side nearest the nose. This is hard to see without a bright light but if it is noted, a search for the cause is warranted. Depending on the location of the pigmentation, surgery may be recommended.
> 
> OTHER CONCERNS
> 
> The normal dog has 42 teeth in its mouth. The brachycephalic dog also has 42 teeth but a lot less space to fit them in. This means that the teeth will be crowded and growing in at odd angles which, in turn, traps food debris and leads to periodontal disease at a far younger age than in non-brachycephalics. The earlier you begin using home care dental products, the longer you will be able to postpone full dentistry under general anesthesia.
> 
> Skin fold infections are common amid the facial folds of the brachycephalic breeds. Be sure to examine these areas periodically for redness. The broad headed nature of these breeds makes reproduction a tricky matter as Caesarean section is frequently needed. Difficult labor is common and, as surgical assistance is often necessary, it is important not to breed females with tracheal stenosis (see above). Breeding is best left to the experts.
> 
> Altogether, the brachycephalic breeds show plenty of personality and intelligence just as all dogs do but because of their special needs, they require some extra knowledge of their owners. If you have any questions about your brachycephalic dog, please do not hesitate to call your veterinarian if you have further questions.


Above is only one website illustrating the problems there is plenty more and its well documented.

As regards to if dogs are overweight or not its usually done by body condition scoring based on this it could be argued that the Lab could be carrying too much weight.

Body Condition Scoring Chart | College of Veterinary Medicine

So although Hutch got the breeds mixed up maybe I can see what he means.


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## labradrk

Honeys mum said:


> There is a vast differance in apperance of a show dog and a working dog,
> their is also a saying in the show world, you shouldn't comment on a dog until youve had your hands on it.
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there's a a differance in looking at a dog on T.V and judging it in the ring.


Everyone is an expert don't you know? gotta love these arm chair critics.


----------



## Lurcherlad

IMO - most of the dogs I see out and about (particularly labs ) are too fat.

But, I own a grey x lurcher and everyone thinks he is skinny 

Do I care? Do I heck! 

The OP is entitled to express her opinion as is everyone else


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## hutch6

Honeys mum said:


> There is a vast differance in apperance of a show dog and a working dog,
> their is also a saying in the show world, you shouldn't comment on a dog until youve had your hands on it.
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there's a a differance in looking at a dog on T.V and judging it in the ring.


Yes there is but why should it be that way and create one that has been bred for ability and one that has been bred for, well, the imagination of people who think it might have ability? Surely the best example of a particular breed of dog is one that out performs in both scenarios not one that just "looks like it could do a job", especially in a catagory labelled "Working Breed". Putting your hands on a dog of a breed that has been genetically engineered to do a high demand job does not constitute as a good test or judgement of ability.

They do say the TV adds a few extra pounds


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## dexter

lol loving the posts by the armchair critics some who have never gone over a dog let alone read the standard of the breed. so 3 top judges have got it wrong have they????


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## Lurcherlad

dexter said:


> lol loving the posts by the armchair critics some who have never gone over a dog let alone read the standard of the breed. so 3 top judges have got it wrong have they????


Why can't people express an opinion from their armchairs? Presumably, any opinion you may choose to express on anything is based on in depth knowledge and experience?


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## Sled dog hotel

Got nothing to do with Armchair critics, judging or anything else you cant argue with veterinary science and medicine. In some breeds the way they have been bred and things like scull shape etc does cause physical and health problems and make them more prone to certain conditions. Other breeds with different scaped sculls, jaws and noses dont have the same problems. So is it fair to breed with certain conformations in the first place. I personally dont think it is but thats just my opinion.


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## newfiesmum

simplysardonic said:


> Hutch, that's a King Charles spaniel, not a Cavalier King Charles spaniel, they're a different breed altogether


I was just about to point that out, you beat me to it.


----------



## hutch6

Maybe, if they've never seen a dog working or know what is required of a working lab.

I could be wrong of course and actually they got it spot on but only because the other labradors had been taking liberties the day before at the "all you can eat breakfast buffet" at their chosen accomodation and had to be wheeled in.

Watch the video of the lab getting paraded around the ring and ask yourself, as you watch it roll, fold and wobble about, "Would I take that dog to a job shooting/fishing for the day knowing it would not be at risk of over-exersion, strain on the joints and could get over something bigger than a kerb to fetch stuff?" I doubt the answer would be positive.


----------



## hutch6

newfiesmum said:


> I was just about to point that out, you beat me to it.


   That's already been pointed out. Gotta get up early these days. I'll try and put another calamity up tomorrow if you let me know when you're on line.

On your marks......... get set................


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## JAChihuahua

dexter said:


> lol loving the posts by the armchair critics some who have never gone over a dog let alone read the standard of the breed. so 3 top judges have got it wrong have they????


To be honest... and as I was the one who brought up the lab on this thread (to prove my point I might add) I feel this backlash is now aimed at me.

I HAVE worked with labs, I HAVE lived with working labs.

In my personal opinion I believe that ALL labs of show type are unfit for working, and therein lies the problem. YES the judges have got it wrong, because they are now so far removed from the working lines that they look almost like an entirely different breed.

Working labs are selected for breeding for their ability, and in that comes their health and conformation.

Anyway just my opinion, and actually I dont like expressing it about a particular dog, this is for all show labrador breeders and judges.


----------



## Wobbles

hutch6 said:


> I don't care who I offend or how much I know about "breeds", it doesn't take a genius to be amazed and dumbfounded that two representatives of a breed should look like they did and get placed so highly.
> 
> First off, is it laid out in the breed standard for the Cav King Charles that they should be able to sniff their own eyes and struggle eating or breathing? What a ******* disgrace of a dog. How is that even appealing or god forbid functional of any dog? It really shows off what is so bad about dog shows - removing the purpose of the dog and subjecting them to a life of struggle and severly resitricting their abilities. Would you actually buy this dog or any offspring it produced? I don't think my bank accolutn could handle the insurance and vet fees and I certainly wouldn't subject a dog to such suffering or life of restricted acitivity as it can't bloody breath.
> 
> Crufts 2013 BiB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like one of those Chinese Lions.
> 
> Crufts 1973 Best In Show:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In just 40yrs how can this confirmation change so much if it managed to win the whole bleeding show? How can the "deformaties" to this years Best in Breed not be not noticed?
> 
> This is how they should be as they can breath and enjoy a decent standard of life not struggling for air or struggling to eat their own food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Lab that was awarded reserve or 2nd best in Show or whatever. WTF can that dog in the field? What purpose does it serve? It was just a lump of fat in a labrador outift. Seriously could this dog swim in a current dragging a line or jump a fence to retrieve a bird? Could it cover three miles let alone do a full day's work on a shoot? Best in breed and runner-up best in show, that judge must be having a laugh and never been anywhere near a shoot in his life so how can he judge what makes a quality working dog? All that makes is a good draught excluder and food hoover, that's it. What a joke.
> 
> Crufts 2013 Reserve Best in Show:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, out of all of the working breeds this was deemed to be able to carry out the job is was designed to do better than any of the other breedsa nd examples? What was the job the judges had in mind - sofa tester? Food tester? Watching it waddle and wobble its way around the ring made you think "this is the only exercise this dog has had in its life". Do these folk a shot putter can win the 1500m, they just haven't entered the race as yet? Still, a good advert for Eukanuba - "Your dog will not starve on our food".
> 
> An actual working lab:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breed for purpose not for asthetics, it's a disgrace it really is.


Completely agree with you. That German shepherd, King Charles, and Labrador were a disgrace, god only knows how they were put through.

Why should a GSD look like a frog? Why is the head shape on the KCS so strange, poor dog's got its nose practically stuck between its eyes That Flabrador was a nice enough dog, but well big, looks like the marker for overweight they have on the vet charts, got no shape on its chest at all. Well barrel shaped I suppose. And yeah labs are meant to be solid as their a working dog, but there's solid and there's being built like a brick sh!thouse! It's all well and good while it's young, but I'm sure it will tell in a few years on it.


----------



## dexter

Lurcherlad said:


> Why can't people express an opinion from their armchairs? Presumably, any opinion you may choose to express on anything is based on in depth knowledge and experience?


of course 
wouldn't comment if i didn't


----------



## labradrk

JAChihuahua said:


> To be honest... and as I was the one who brought up the lab on this thread (to prove my point I might add) I feel this backlash is now aimed at me.
> 
> I HAVE worked with labs, I HAVE lived with working labs.
> 
> In my personal opinion I believe that ALL labs of show type are unfit for working, and therein lies the problem. YES the judges have got it wrong, because they are now so far removed from the working lines that they look almost like an entirely different breed.
> 
> Working labs are selected for breeding for their ability, and in that comes their health and conformation.
> 
> Anyway just my opinion, and actually I dont like expressing it about a particular dog, this is for all show labrador breeders and judges.


Oh dear, such ignorance. So ALL show Labs are fit unfit for working? yet oddly enough, plenty of show bred Labs _do_ work and, if you can believe it, actually compete successfully too. Amazing huh? ok, so they are probably not a quick, flashy and 'worky' as the fully working bred dogs, but it is incredibly naive to say that ALL show Labs are unfit for working.

You do realize that physically, most moderate show types more closely match the original founders of the breed than many working types, don't you? the Labrador is not supposed to be a long legged, racy dog with no substance.


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## Wobbles

labradrk said:


> Oh dear, such ignorance. So ALL show Labs are fit unfit for working? yet oddly enough, plenty of show bred Labs _do_ work and, if you can believe it, actually compete successfully too. Amazing huh? ok, so they are probably not a quick, flashy and 'worky' as the fully working bred dogs, but it is incredibly naive to say that ALL show Labs are unfit for working.
> 
> You do realize that physically, most moderate show types more closely match the original founders of the breed than many working types, don't you? the Labrador is not supposed to be a long legged, racy dog with no substance.


Ok, so the lab can be justified. But there is no excuse or reason why the GSD and King Charles are so appallingly bad.


----------



## labradrk

Wobbles said:


> Ok, so the lab can be justified. But there is no excuse or reason why the GSD and King Charles are so appallingly bad.


The German Shepherd shown is not the type I personally find attractive, however given that he won the the breed (and group last year, I think) two years in a row he is obviously doing something right. The dog is fully health tested and has working achievements, nor is he anywhere as extreme as some of the American show bred ones, so I don't think he can be called "appallingly bad" by comparison.

I am not fan of King Charles either but then I know nothing of the breed.


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## Wobbles

labradrk said:


> The German Shepherd shown is not the type I personally find attractive, however given that he won the the breed (and group last year, I think) two years in a row he is obviously doing something right. The dog is fully health tested and has working achievements, nor is he anywhere as extreme as some of the American show bred ones, so I don't think he can be called "appallingly bad" by comparison.
> 
> I am not fan of King Charles either but then I know nothing of the breed.


Neither looked normal or healthy. You don't need to know much about dogs to see that a sloping back, and a nose that's so short it's like a third eye isn't normal.


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## JAChihuahua

labradrk said:


> Oh dear, such ignorance. So ALL show Labs are fit unfit for working? yet oddly enough, plenty of show bred Labs _do_ work and, if you can believe it, actually compete successfully too. Amazing huh? ok, so they are probably not a quick, flashy and 'worky' as the fully working bred dogs, but it is incredibly naive to say that ALL show Labs are unfit for working.
> 
> You do realize that physically, most moderate show types more closely match the original founders of the breed than many working types, don't you? the Labrador is not supposed to be a long legged, racy dog with no substance.


Remind me, when was the last dual champion in labs? Not in my lifetime.

I have yet to see a show bred lab work a 10 or 11 hour day, for the best part of a full season. I have seen show bred labs worked "for a bit of fun", and invariably they are slower, with less drive, and much less stamina to keep up with their working bred counterparts. Therefore I still say all show bred labs are not fit for purpose.


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## labradrk

Wobbles said:


> Neither looked normal or healthy. You don't need to know much about dogs to see that a sloping back, and a nose that's so short it's like a third eye isn't normal.


I don't like the look of a roached back either, to my eye it doesn't look normal because any dog breed I have owned has had a level topline.

However, is there anything to say that a slightly roached back (I have seen MUCH worse, look at the American showline GSD's) causes problems for the dog? because personally, I think structurally other breeds look FAR worse than this particular example of a GSD -- the Basset Hound, Peke, Pugs, and any other breed with long backs/no legs/flat faces.


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## Spellweaver

There are two sorts of opinions - informed opinions and uniformed opinions.

With informed opinions you get sensible discussion and debate. With uninformed opinions you could get anything - such as "The sky is green because in my opinion it is green".

There are some very informed opinions on this thread - ie people who actually know what they are talking about, There are also some very uninformed opinions. What is sad is that those with uninformed opinions are refusing to open their minds and listen to those with informed opinions. Why? What are you afraid of? You might actually learn something if you opened your mind and listened.

Now, to the three dogs under discussion. First of all the KC. I agree with the informed opinions on here about brachycephalic dogs, recognise the trouble it can cause for the dog, and am glad that people are beginning to breed for longer noses in most brachycephalic breeds. I do not agree with the uninformed opinion on here that the dog was somehow unhealthy or couldn't breathe. I was there yesterday. That arena was as hot as hell - even without being in the spotlight. That dog ran and moved with ease - much better, in fact, than it moved when it won the group, (which I didn't actually think it deserved). It was not out of breath and had no breathing difficulties whatsoever, so to say it is unhealthy is just plain bias with no substance.

The lab - informed opinion on here has told you that it is muscular and as such would be able to put in a day's work. Uninformed opinion would have you believe it is overweight, fat and unhealthy. Let me tell you, this dog was not fat. It was extremely muscular. Yes, there are labs not as muscular. That does not mean it was unhealthy, neither does comparing it to a picture of a less-muscular lab and saying the less muscular one is more healthy make any sense - except for those with uninformed opinions, of course. The best way I can describe it is by asking you to think of a rugby player standing next to a football player. The footballer would appear slim, the rugby player would appear chunky. Would any one of you with your uniformed opinions say that the rugby player was less healthy? I think not - and neither was the lab. It would have been showing all day the day before (probably in a huge class (labs had one of the largest entires) and, like the KC, was unfazed by the heat of the arena and the spotlight. He ran around like a dream, muscles rippling - he was not fat, not overweight, not unhealthy. Just very fit and muscular.

Now the GSD - I get so cross when those with uninformed opinions criticise the sloping back. Go and take a look at many of those in the hound group. If they were trained to stand as a GSD is, their backs would look exactly the same. Yet uninformed opinion on here states that sloping back equals unhealthy. Let me tell you, there was nothing unhealthy about the dog. He had been showing during that day - probably had an early start and a large class - and yet was still raring to go and moving like a dream during the group judging in the hot arena under the hot spotlights. He may have had a sloping back but - hey, sorry for you lot with the uninformed opinion - that does not equal unhealthy. Any dog that can be as active, happy and move as well as he did must be fit. In my opinion it should have won the pastoral group, and would have been a close contender for BIS .

Anyone can have an opinion - but personally, I prefer to find out the correct information upon which to base my opinion rather than just picking up something - anything - out of the blue.


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## briarlow

I know one of the photographers at Crufts and he is into working Labs, he has said that the dog that got RBIS definitely was not fat. I think he was large boned and more overdone than I'd like to see but by the sounds of things he definitely isn't "fat". The BIS winner is gorgeous even though not my cup of tea. I was wanting the Aussie to win.


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## Indiandpuppy

MrRustyRead said:


> actually not, its very common place with looking after tortoises to be told to keep them in a viv and feed them cucumber, lettuce and tomato. and guess what? these can prove fatal to them as its incorrect information.


My acquaintance does this, she got a tortoise in a pet store and keeps it in a viv with a lightbulb, feeding it a spoon of rabbit food and lettuce and cucumber daily, it looks so ill and dried up, she says they don't drink water... and lines it with newspaper, she once left it for a 2 week holiday just putting a head of lettuce in it. SHE HAS NOW BOUGHT HIM A FRIEND OF A LOCUST FROM A PET SHOP WHICH EATS WOOD SHAVINGS. I think its eating the tortoises shell :/ she never listens to the websites and books I give her, poor tortoise, what a bad owner! :cursing: it makes me mad when people don't research pets...

xx


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## Honeys mum

In reply to Labradrk's remarks,I have showed dogs for 30 yrs,give tickets in Cocker Spaniels and can judge variety gundogs at Open Show level.
All those dogs in the BIS line up had won under their Breed judge, won their groups and BIS and RBIS under the BIS judge.


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## MrRustyRead

Indiandpuppy said:


> My acquaintance does this, she got a tortoise in a pet store and keeps it in a viv with a lightbulb, feeding it a spoon of rabbit food and lettuce and cucumber daily, it looks so ill and dried up, she says they don't drink water... and lines it with newspaper, she once left it for a 2 week holiday just putting a head of lettuce in it. SHE HAS NOW BOUGHT HIM A FRIEND OF A LOCUST FROM A PET SHOP WHICH EATS WOOD SHAVINGS. I think its eating the tortoises shell :/ she never listens to the websites and books I give her, poor tortoise, what a bad owner! :cursing: it makes me mad when people don't research pets...
> 
> xx


dont get me started haha, pet shops are the worst! ive banned myself from going in them coz ill prob get into heated arguements ha, have you tried showing her pictures of natural kept tortoise to make her think oooo that looks prettyful?


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## newfiesmum

Indiandpuppy said:


> My acquaintance does this, she got a tortoise in a pet store and keeps it in a viv with a lightbulb, feeding it a spoon of rabbit food and lettuce and cucumber daily, it looks so ill and dried up, she says they don't drink water... and lines it with newspaper, she once left it for a 2 week holiday just putting a head of lettuce in it. SHE HAS NOW BOUGHT HIM A FRIEND OF A LOCUST FROM A PET SHOP WHICH EATS WOOD SHAVINGS. I think its eating the tortoises shell :/ she never listens to the websites and books I give her, poor tortoise, what a bad owner! :cursing: it makes me mad when people don't research pets...
> 
> xx


I don't want to go off topic, and I know there are no tortoises at crufts, but when we had them as youngsters they were outdoors in the summer, roamed about the garden and ate the grass. They took themselves into hibernation in the winter. I know things have changed but shouldn't they be outdoors when the weather suits?

I thought tortoises were hard to come by since they banned the importing of them, and cost an awful lot of money.

I know the RSPCA are pretty useless but it might well be worth a call about this poor creature.


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## Mese

Indiandpuppy said:


> My acquaintance does this, she got a tortoise in a pet store and keeps it in a viv with a lightbulb, feeding it a spoon of rabbit food and lettuce and cucumber daily, it looks so ill and dried up, she says they don't drink water... and lines it with newspaper, she once left it for a 2 week holiday just putting a head of lettuce in it. SHE HAS NOW BOUGHT HIM A FRIEND OF A LOCUST FROM A PET SHOP WHICH EATS WOOD SHAVINGS. I think its eating the tortoises shell :/ she never listens to the websites and books I give her, poor tortoise, what a bad owner! :cursing: it makes me mad when people don't research pets...
> 
> xx


As NewfiesMum said , id be ringing up the RSPCA , even though they are rubbish 
from the sound of it this tortoise needs expert help before it dies


----------



## swarthy

newfiesmum said:


> I thought the labrador was too fat to be honest. I am always reading complaints about people letting their labs get fat, and now they will be sure all the others are too skinny.


Talk about post Crufts Deja Vu

If you have ever seen a fat lab moving, you would know that the dog who won RBIS was NOT fat.

He had a lot of substance yes - that is VERY different to fat - he's a worker in his country as well as a showdog, and all I saw was a very nicely constructed lively dog (despite having only travelled from Italy the night before) who managed a 12 hour day and was still bouncing at the end of it.

Cameras are renowned for putting weight on dogs and animals - but Romeo was NOT fat - there is a very characteristic roll seen on fat Labs when they move - he most certainly didn't have this despite the extra weight the camera adds.

He got through FOUR judges to get where he was - the judge who gave him CC, the bitch judge who would have had to agree he was worthy of BOB - the group judge AND the BIS judge - beating over 20,000 dogs in the process - not to mention he has already achieved champion status in his own country - not a mean feat in Labradors in any country.

Until you go hands on a dog, and are close up to seeing him move and note the characteristic roll that you see on the move with overweight Labs - people are not in a position to make such a statement.

It's amazing how many people think they know better than the judges - a lot of those people knowing little or noting about the breed.

The feedback from the judges to date has been that Romeo was solid throughout - i.e. in good hard condition.

It seems it's not OK to knock some dogs, but more than OK to knock others - and this deja vu about Labs happens every year after Crufts without fail.

I've not read the content of this thread in its entirety and have been advised it's probably better that I don't if I value my BP levels and my sanity.

"Substance" and "Fat" are NOT the sane thing - and there are people across the globe proving on a daily basis that substance does not preclude a dogs ability to work - excess weight and lack of fitness can.

People should read and absorb the Labs breed standard before next years Crufts - two words are inherent throughout it - "BROAD" and "STRONG" - not some of the whippet like dogs you see being bred by the working folk - the ones who wrote the breed standard in the first place.

There are FT CH / FT AW Labs out there with sufficient good looks and substance to say a dog can have it all - and some of these dogs really wouldn't look out of place in today's showring - not in the special working classes, but in the normal show classes. 
---------------------------------

As for Jilly, the winner, she is lovely - although still young, this has been a long time coming for her - for a dog who has the most phenomenally impressive show record spanning the last couple of years - this really is the icing on her cake for her and her owner.


----------



## shetlandlover

swarthy said:


> Talk about post Crufts Dega Vu
> 
> *If you have ever seen a fat lab moving, you would know that the dog who won RBIS was NOT fat.*
> 
> He had a lot of substance yes - that is VERY different to fat - he's a worker in his country as well as a showdog, and all I saw was a very nicely constructed lively dog (despite having only travelled from Italy the night before) who managed a 12 hour day and was still bouncing at the end of it.
> 
> Cameras are renowned for putting weight on dogs and animals - but Romeo was NOT fat - there is a very characteristic roll seen on fat Labs when they move - he most certainly didn't have this despite the extra weight the camera adds.
> 
> He got through FOUR judges to get where he was - the judge who gave him CC, the bitch judge who would have had to agree he was worthy of BOB - the group judge AND the BIS judge - beating over 20,000 dogs in the process - not to mention he has already achieved champion status in his own country - not a mean feat in Labradors in any country.
> 
> Until you go hands on a dog, and are close up to seeing him move and note the characteristic role that you see on the move with overweight Labs - people are not in a position to make such a statement.
> 
> *It's amazing how many people think they know better than the judges - a lot of those people knowing little or noting about the breed. *
> 
> The feedback from the judges to date has been that Romeo was solid throughout - i.e. in good hard condition.
> 
> *It seems it's not OK to knock some dogs, but more than OK to knock others *- and this deja vu about Labs happens every year after Crufts without fail.
> 
> I've not read the content of this thread in its entirety and have been advised it's probably better that I don't if I value my BP levels and my sanity.
> 
> "Substance" and "Fat" are NOT the sane thing - and there are people across the globe proving on a daily basis that substance does not preclude a dogs ability to work - excess weight and lack of fitness can.
> 
> People should read and absorb the Labs breed standard before next years Crufts - two words are inherent throughout it - "BROAD" and "STRONG" - not some of the whippet like dogs you see being bred by the working folk - the ones who wrote the breed standard in the first place.
> 
> There are sufficient FT CH / FT AW Labs out there with sufficient good looks and substance to say a good can have it all - and some of these dogs really wouldn't look out of place in today's showring - not in the special working classes, but in the normal show classes.
> ---------------------------------
> 
> As for Jilly, the winner, she is lovely - although still young, this has been a long time coming for her - for a dog who has the most phenomenally impressive show record spanning the last couple of years - this really is the icing on her cake for her and her owner.


Rep coming!


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## Indiandpuppy

My mum spoke to rspca but they couldn't do anything, they also have a teacup dog which 'does not like to walk' and 'is so small it can't be house trained. They feed it a tiny amount so it 'does not turn into a big dog'! they also leave it in the car overnight when going away. It has puppies with their toy poodle every year as they think neutering is cruel and not letting animals be animals, they sell the pups for £600 pounds each and the first time the mum nearly died in birth as she was too young, I no longer speak to this family. They also fed the dogs large dog food so they could not get their mouths around the pieces, I used to go around and feed them in secret

I would never become friends with people like that...
They said their poodle breeder sold extra rare teacups, toys, mini's, standards and rare giants...? all white... (what do they do with the other colours) I asked for the name so I could report the breeder but they are no longer in business. Hey I wonder why...


----------



## swarthy

Spellweaver said:


> The lab - informed opinion on here has told you that it is muscular and as such would be able to put in a day's work. Uninformed opinion would have you believe it is overweight, fat and unhealthy. Let me tell you, this dog was not fat. It was extremely muscular. Yes, there are labs not as muscular. That does not mean it was unhealthy, neither does comparing it to a picture of a less-muscular lab and saying the less muscular one is more healthy make any sense - except for those with uninformed opinions, of course. The best way I can describe it is by asking you to think of a rugby player standing next to a football player. The footballer would appear slim, the rugby player would appear chunky. Would any one of you with your uniformed opinions say that the rugby player was less healthy? I think not - and neither was the lab. It would have been showing all day the day before (probably in a huge class (labs had one of the largest entires) and, like the KC, was unfazed by the heat of the arena and the spotlight. He ran around like a dream, muscles rippling - he was not fat, not overweight, not unhealthy. Just very fit and muscular.


That Lab had also travelled with his owner from Italy the night before - we were up at 4am to take our boy to Crufts, that is tiring enough, and the dogs will rest when they can - but if they are required to perform, they will, and keep on going regardless of how tiring it is

The ultimate will of a true Labrador is to please their owner, and oh boy did Romeo do that in style - still bouncing around at the end of a couple of days which would have taken it's toll on the fittest of humans.

There were 560 Labs entered - far exceeding the large majority of dogs, and around 5K gundogs entered - winning the ticket or reserve ticket (or even getting placed in classes of these size) is an achievement.

The Open Dog and Bitch classes were HUGE including champions from the UK and across the globe - presenting the judges with many challenges and I know very nice dogs walked from every single class because the number of places is limited and the class sizes large - even making the cut is enough to make many newcomers feel like they've achieved something remarkable - to get any placing is a fabulous achievement - and predominantly in our breed, even qualifying for Crufts is quite an achievement.

Both CC winners would have had to challenge each other and be examined by "the other judge" so the judges could decide between them which dog was worthy of BOB - the bitch CC winner was also beautiful and has been doing very well in the ring recently.

The Best Puppy in Breed was actually a Romeo daughter, owned by a different breeder.

=================================

I paid considerable attention to some of the GameKeepers ring classes, and was delighted to see and hear of many show-bred dogs (many who've qualified for Crufts for the main ring - and many having taken numerous first and other good placings at CH shows) also being placed in the GK ring, a lot of them in the top places -

A friend who has a chocolate she bought originally as a pet has had a remarkable journey with her boy - he has done exceptionally well in the showring and is multi-Crufts qualified - and now being trained and going out to work take a well deserved 2nd in her class in the GK ring - once again proving Labs can be good looking, conform to the breed standard AND do an honest days work (and there are FT CH with plenty of substance who meet the same criteria and wouldn't look out of place in the standard show classes at Champ shows).

=============================

All my dogs are well muscled - some have very keen retrieving instincts - sadly, my lack of mobility prevents me from doing any further gun-dog training with them - but I do know their condition is remarkable as I am frequently told by judges who go hands on. I have a black bitch who I am sure some people would say is fat - but she has a well sprung barrelled rib and weights just 28kg - with not a single ounce of fat on her.

Her Mother OTOH was also a lean well muscled girl who weighed 34kg - yet the number of times I was told she lacked substance (which she did) I lost track of there were so many - but the uninformed would say mum was correct and the daughter incorrect - when, whilst I know she has areas which require improvement against the breed standard clearly impresses many all rounder judges (reflected in her results) just as her mother did - I was not naïve enough however to recognise that both dogs have limitations in terms of their showing capability and the levels they could reach - but I still bet to the untrained eye - people would say the daughter is overweight when she is far from it. And I also know that the daughter was better all round than the mother.

I have a show-bred chocolate boy here I simply cant get weight on - he again is solid muscle - a vet we saw recently just kept uttering he'd never seen a Lab in such fabulous condition (and they see a lot of workers around here) - To get him not looking skinny - I have to get his weight up to around 37kg - even then he is still slim and could never be mistaken for being fat - but he does have a different build to many show dogs and is quite rangey - having been described on more than one occasion as "a working mans dog" - yet he produces pups with far greater substance than himself (and he is by no means physically small nor lacking in bone).

------------------------------------

Weight, size and substance have no bearing on a dogs ability to do an honest days work - yes, they may need to build up stamina through practice - no-one can disagree with that - but size and substance have proved not to be barriers to doing an honest days work across the globe, and particularly in some European countries and the US (where many dogs tend to have more substance again) where trialing and other working activities are considered mandatory for the dog to obtain their Show Champ title, never mind any other titles their owners may wish to achieve.


----------



## Freyja

swarthy said:


> That Lab had also travelled with his owner from Italy the night before - we were up at 4am to take our boy to Crufts, that is tiring enough, and the dogs will rest when they can - but if they are required to perform, they will, and keep on going regardless of how tiring it is
> 
> The ultimate will of a true Labrador is to please their owner, and oh boy did Romeo do that in style - still bouncing around at the end of a couple of days which would have taken it's toll on the fittest of humans.
> 
> There were 560 Labs entered - far exceeding the large majority of dogs, and around 5K gundogs entered - winning the ticket or reserve ticket (or even getting placed in classes of these size) is an achievement.
> 
> The Open Dog and Bitch classes were HUGE including champions from the UK and across the globe - presenting the judges with many challenges and I know very nice dogs walked from every single class because the number of places is limited and the class sizes large - even making the cut is enough to make many newcomers feel like they've achieved something remarkable - to get any placing is a fabulous achievement - and predominantly in our breed, even qualifying for Crufts is quite an achievement.
> 
> Both CC winners would have had to challenge each other and be examined by "the other judge" so the judges could decide between them which dog was worthy of BOB - the bitch CC winner was also beautiful and has been doing very well in the ring recently.
> 
> The Best Puppy in Breed was actually a Romeo daughter, owned by a different breeder.
> 
> =================================
> 
> I paid considerable attention to some of the GameKeepers ring classes, and was delighted to see and hear of many show-bred dogs (many who've qualified for Crufts for the main ring - and many having taken numerous first and other good placings at CH shows) also being placed in the GK ring, a lot of them in the top places -
> 
> A friend who has a chocolate she bought originally as a pet has had a remarkable journey with her boy - he has done exceptionally well in the showring and is multi-Crufts qualified - and now being trained and going out to work take a well deserved 2nd in her class in the GK ring - once again proving Labs can be good looking, conform to the breed standard AND do an honest days work (and there are FT CH with plenty of substance who meet the same criteria and wouldn't look out of place in the standard show classes at Champ shows).
> 
> =============================
> 
> All my dogs are well muscled - some have very keen retrieving instincts - sadly, my lack of mobility prevents me from doing any further gun-dog training with them - but I do know their condition is remarkable as I am frequently told by judges who go hands on. I have a black bitch who I am sure some people would say is fat - but she has a well sprung barrelled rib and weights just 28kg - with not a single ounce of fat on her.
> 
> Her Mother OTOH was also a lean well muscled girl who weighed 34kg - yet the number of times I was told she lacked substance (which she did) I lost track of there were so many - but the uninformed would say mum was correct and the daughter incorrect - when, whilst I know she has areas which require improvement against the breed standard clearly impresses many all rounder judges (reflected in her results) just as her mother did - I was not naïve enough however to recognise that both dogs have limitations in terms of their showing capability and the levels they could reach - but I still bet to the untrained eye - people would say the daughter is overweight when she is far from it. And I also know that the daughter was better all round than the mother.
> 
> I have a show-bred chocolate boy here I simply cant get weight on - he again is solid muscle - a vet we saw recently just kept uttering he'd never seen a Lab in such fabulous condition (and they see a lot of workers around here) - To get him not looking skinny - I have to get his weight up to around 37kg - even then he is still slim and could never be mistaken for being fat - but he does have a different build to many show dogs and is quite rangey - having been described on more than one occasion as "a working mans dog" - yet he produces pups with far greater substance than himself (and he is by no means physically small nor lacking in bone).
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Weight, size and substance have no bearing on a dogs ability to do an honest days work - yes, they may need to build up stamina through practice - no-one can disagree with that - but size and substance have proved not to be barriers to doing an honest days work across the globe, and particularly in some European countries and the US (where many dogs tend to have more substance again) where trialing and other working activities are considered mandatory for the dog to obtain their Show Champ title, never mind any other titles their owners may wish to achieve.


This is so true we left home at 6am it took 2 1/2 hrs to do a 1 hr journey little Tabitha was shattered before we even got to the hall. Fortunately it was 4.30 before we got into the ring so she had plenty of time to recover. She spent the whole of saturday sleeping OH said she never moved all day. The lab had left his home the day before had an extra unexpected night at the NEC presumably in a hotel somewere near by and was still bouncing about at the end of sunday. I doubt many dogs would have had the stamina to do that he must have been so fit to have been able to cope with it all.


----------



## Meezey

Freyja said:


> This is so true we left home at 6am it took 2 1/2 hrs to do a 1 hr journey little Tabitha was shattered before we even got to the hall. Fortunately it was 4.30 before we got into the ring so she had plenty of time to recover. She spent the whole of saturday sleeping OH said she never moved all day. The lab had left his home the day before had an extra unexpected night at the NEC presumably in a hotel somewere near by and was still bouncing about at the end of sunday. I doubt many dogs would have had the stamina to do that he must have been so fit to have been able to cope with it all.


Fit and Happy  He was a very happy dog


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## Howl

OP: I do think everyone is entitled to their opinion but the longer you look into dogs and their traits the more you will hopefully appreciate all dogs one way or another. 
She was exactly how they are supposed to be which is very outgoing,courageous, happy willing to please, extrovert and full of character. Good build not too stumpy and fit for purpose. 
When a dog ticks all the boxes for its breed standard and excels in showing off all of them then they stand a chance against all the other outstanding dogs there. Whether you like a breed or not, that is irrelevant. 
The friends I have who are judges, breeders and owners of griffs, everyone seemed to be supporting Jilly, no one had a bad word to say about her breeding or owner which is unusual as these it can get very bitchy (pardon the pun) at times.

One or two things might be worth mentioning, the breed are very hardy, have good health and really good temprement which does seem to be the direction KC is hopefully headed. 
There was not as much WTF :cursing: as I remember there used to be.

My only worry is a potential increase in BYB's and people ignoring the warnings as so often happens with beagles. I worry that given their looks more people might start looking at them as the next designer breed. Although not legally worked in this country they are until very recently a dual purpose working breed and pet, noisy independent and stubborn but very loveable.

PBGV's aroooing - YouTube this is a daily occurance even with training the stop command.

Some more so than others but some can be very noisy. They are noisy when hunting because by "hunt" they are usually used to direct their owners to the animal and flush it out. 
grand basset griffon vendeen cazando( [email protected]) - YouTube

This is what happens on an offlead walk even with a LOT of recall training some are worse than others but they are first and foremost a very bright working scent hound everything else comes second.
In that sense whether people like their look is again not very important, they shouldn't be confused with a dog that is small to suit sitting on a lap or has long ears to frame their face. PBGV's suit rabbit hunting, GBGV's boar and small deer, GGV's larger prey originally boar, wolves and deer. 
Every aspect of them is built for a purpose. They need a lot of walking and have still not met anyone who as managed to tire them out on a walk which could be Jillys secret to still being on top form even in the final.

They are so affectionate and naughty but in a funny way and the breeder described Jilly as naughty :thumbsup: They love all people and children. They are what they are which in my very biased opinion is one of the greatest dog breeds but a marmite of a dog character.

I am quite glad they are not everyones taste because in the wrong hands this breed suffer horribly because they are stubborn and without patience/treat training don't easily change their behaviour. Many have ended up going missing when owners hope recall will come naturally or treat with spray and electric collars to stop barking /hunting, matted coats (double coat needing frequent brushing) I have seen hand shy rescues who have clearly been hit, a dog who was locked in a shed in his own filth and one that was chained up outside.


----------



## AlbertRoss

labradrk said:


> The German Shepherd shown is not the type I personally find attractive, however given that he won the the breed (and group last year, I think) two years in a row he is obviously doing something right. The dog is fully health tested and has working achievements, nor is he anywhere as extreme as some of the American show bred ones, so I don't think he can be called "appallingly bad" by comparison.


The GSD judge this year is known to favour "Germanic" type dogs e.g. those which have a roach/hinged/curved back. Those things are listed in the GSD standard as a "serious fault". But the KC has just signed an agreement with the WUSV which actively promotes that type of dog (have a look at the WUSV website for some truly appalling examples). That is a disgrace.



Wobbles said:


> Neither looked normal or healthy. You don't need to know much about dogs to see that a sloping back....isn't normal.


A sloping back is quite correct in GSD. But it should be *straight* from withers to croup - not bent in the middle.



labradrk said:


> I don't like the look of a roached back either, to my eye it doesn't look normal because any dog breed I have owned has had a level topline.
> 
> However, is there anything to say that a slightly roached back (I have seen MUCH worse, look at the American showline GSD's) causes problems for the dog?


Yes, there is. The magazine of the WUSV published an article on research done at a Veterinary Department of a German University which clearly shows that a curve in the lower back of a GSD contributes to a condition where the discs separating the vertebrae are pushed up into the spinal cord crushing the nerves. This, in turn, causes the dog to lose some measure of control over its back legs. If you saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed then you may remember the phrase "half dog, half frog". Or you can Google the YouTube footage. Funnily enough that research is never referred to by the GSD breed clubs that support the roach back type of dog.



Spellweaver said:


> Now the GSD - I get so cross when those with uninformed opinions criticise the sloping back. Go and take a look at many of those in the hound group. If they were trained to stand as a GSD is, their backs would look exactly the same. Yet uninformed opinion on here states that sloping back equals unhealthy. Let me tell you, there was nothing unhealthy about the dog. He had been showing during that day - probably had an early start and a large class - and yet was still raring to go and moving like a dream during the group judging in the hot arena under the hot spotlights. He may have had a sloping back but - hey, sorry for you lot with the uninformed opinion - that does not equal unhealthy. Any dog that can be as active, happy and move as well as he did must be fit. In my opinion it should have won the pastoral group, and would have been a close contender for BIS


I think I've got an informed opinion - after all we have a combined 60 years of GSD experience. Elmo von Hingeback is a disaster and does NOT meet the KC standard - or the FCI standard (which is the German one). His back has a definite 'break' at the start of the loin. This is completely wrong - according to the KC standard. Moving like a dream? What planet are you on? Ever seen Elmo go round a corner? Funny that the TV coverage didn't show him cornering. Could it be because his back legs are all over the place when he does? It was a cast iron certainty that Elmo would win the breed - largely because the Germanic type supporters continually award his appearance in their own shows. But, funnily enough when he comes up against a judge that keeps to the breed standard Elmo not only doesn't win - but comes very poorly placed.

And, yes, before you ask, I have had 'hands on' with Elmo. In the front he is a very good dog. At the back he's simply awful. His back does not slope. His back isn't straight. It's hinged - which is not the same as sloping. That's probably why you hardly ever see a side view photo of him. He simply does not have a back that conforms to the breed standard.

You also need to be clear about "healthy". The GSD League and Council both continually promote the idea that the health checks they do are enough. But neither will address the major problem with the GSD breed - which is conformation. If the continuous breeding of dogs of Elmo's type means that there are more and more unsound dogs being produced then I class that as a health problem - sadly, those who support bent backs don't. Shame on them.

Why did Elmo win the Best of Breed? Perhaps a better question is why did the judge pick as best bitch a dog that was the grand-daughter of one of his own dogs? Couldn't give that BOB could he? :hand:


----------



## Spellweaver

AlbertRoss said:


> Moving like a dream? What planet are you on? Ever seen Elmo go round a corner? Funny that the TV coverage didn't show him cornering. Could it be because his back legs are all over the place when he does?


Funny that the TV coverage didn't show him cornering???   Surely you can't be suggesting that the TV company is in cahoots with the germanic type GSD fanciers and have agreed not to show anything bad?  

Anyway, that's by the by. If you had read my post correctly you would know that I didn't see him on TV. I was there in the flesh. And I've not only seen him at Crufts but at other championship shows as well. Your remarks about his back legs and cornering are totally wrong. His back legs and hocks are excellent. He corners well and he moves like a dream. He is so breathtaking on the move that at WKC I was rooting for him even though the sire of my border collie bitch was in the group and in direct competition against him.



AlbertRoss said:


> But, funnily enough when he comes up against a judge that keeps to the breed standard Elmo not only doesn't win - but comes very poorly placed.


Don't be silly. With the GSD split into the two distinct types. it's not surprising that jusdges preferring the English type don't place a Germanic type.  It's no more sinister than a border collie judge who prefers the head with the shorter muzzle not pacing the head with the longer muzzle.



AlbertRoss said:


> And, yes, before you ask, I have had 'hands on' with Elmo. In the front he is a very good dog. At the back he's simply awful. His back does not slope. His back isn't straight. It's hinged - which is not the same as sloping. That's probably why you hardly ever see a side view photo of him. He simply does not have a back that conforms to the breed standard.


Now that's odd - because so have I and I think you must have had your hands on a completely different dog to me. His back is straight, not hinged, not roached. His photo on the Crufts results website is side on and clearly shows this:

Crufts 2013 Results |



AlbertRoss said:


> Why did Elmo win the Best of Breed? Perhaps a better question is why did the judge pick as best bitch a dog that was the grand-daughter of one of his own dogs? Couldn't give that BOB could he? :hand:


Rubbish. If he could give her BB could give her BOB. And even if what you are suggesting is correct, that doesn't explain why he gave Elmo BD and BOB. You are just miffed because your preferred type didn't win.


----------



## Elles

There's crufts.org.uk printed on the wall behind him. Which letter would you say his back starts at?

To me the dog looks to have a good strong front, but doesn't match with his hind and his back doesn't slope straight from the wither, but rather has a roach/hinge up to the f (approx). He's not a horse though, I could speak with authority if he was a horse.  As a dog, I'm not sure about conformation points, which is why I'm asking.


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## DollyGirl08

I liked the Bernese.

I don't think that lab is fat either, he's just a stocky boy like a lot of the show dogs are. You can see he's solid, not a jelly belly.

However, I do think this sexy beast should be winning rosettes


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## Elles

I liked the lab too. If I was judging and it was 'the dog judge most wants to take home' I would've picked him. He looked such a character too.


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## Spellweaver

Elles said:


> There's crufts.org.uk printed on the wall behind him. Which letter would you say his back starts at?
> 
> To me the dog looks to have a good strong front, but doesn't match with his hind and his back doesn't slope straight from the wither, but rather has a roach/hinge up to the f (approx). He's not a horse though, I could speak with authority if he was a horse.  As a dog, I'm not sure about conformation points, which is why I'm asking.


Does it really say that behind him :lol: I can't see that cos I can only view the smaller pic - when I try to use the magnifying glass all I get is the head shot. I'll try to explain using the smaller pic:

There's some green writing just behind his head (presumably Crufts?) and then if you travel to the right, there's some red writing (eukanuba?) IF you move one letter in on that red sign, then move straight down, that is roughly where the withers end and the back starts.


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## Elles

I had to put my browser on full screen to get the full picture when I hovered over 'view larger image' don't know if that helps at all?

I don't think the small picture is very good really. He does appear to have a bump after where you say his back starts. It doesn't slope smoothly and straight, but rather goes up and then back down again. It could maybe be described as a hinge, then roach back, although any roach is very slight, it's not quite straight to his croup imo. (one of my horses has a very, very slight roach to his back, never caused him a problem).

I thought I'd have a look for some general pics of GSDs and see if I could find one that sloped, but straight. There's one in particular here

http://99mag.com/german-shepherd-dog-characteristics-and-history/

that drops away a lot, but straight and I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial. Give me Elmo any day. lol

Although I prefer my friend's old GSD who had a straighter back that would be more parallel to the floor, not sloped, so personal preference would probably give me the English Alsatian types, not the German sloping types, I can see the attraction with dogs like Elmo and so long as they aren't compromised with health and fitness (ataxia) I don't see the problem with the less exaggerated, but still sloping dogs myself. Not an expert though of course, a purely Jill Bloggs opinion.


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## AlbertRoss

Spellweaver said:


> Now that's odd - because so have I and I think you must have had your hands on a completely different dog to me. His back is straight, not hinged, not roached. His photo on the Crufts results website is side on and clearly shows this:
> 
> Crufts 2013 Results |


If you think the dog in that photo has a straight back then you need to visit an optician.










Now, tell me, which part of this dog's back is straight?

Don't be absurd. It's clearly curved. And this isn't even a side view - like most photos of Elmo it's taken at an angle to disguise an obvious hump. The only reason he wins is because his owner happens to be a big noise in the Germanic breed world. The dog is so far away from all international standards it's a joke.


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## Elles

I agree, his back isn't straight, doesn't look straight in the Crufts picture either imo.

However, does it cause him any problems and do people who like his type of GSD feel he's an excellent example of this type? If so, I wouldn't have thought his owner being a big noise anywhere is necessarily an influence.

Maybe he wins because he's the judge's type, not because his handler is the judges type. 

He wouldn't be my type though. Dog or handler... 

If you feel this type of conformation creates a problem for the individual dog and even worse for more exaggerated dogs, then I think that's where the focus should be tbh. Not on politics and who likes who, even if it is felt to play a part. jmho


----------



## Spellweaver

AlbertRoss said:


> If you think the dog in that photo has a straight back then you need to visit an optician.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, tell me, which part of this dog's back is straight?
> 
> Don't be absurd. It's clearly curved. And this isn't even a side view - like most photos of Elmo it's taken at an angle to disguise an obvious hump. The only reason he wins is because his owner happens to be a big noise in the Germanic breed world. The dog is so far away from all international standards it's a joke.


His back goes from the middle of the guy's right thigh to the middle of the guy's left knee in a straight slope, then curves gently down to the croup. Just as the breed standard says it should.

Funny how many national and internatonal titles this "joke" has won. All those different judges wrong and you are right? I think not. This dog is the germanic type and you prefer the english type. Nothing wrong with that. But that should not blind you to the fact that this dog is so superb he is winning everything.

I don't particularly like breeds with long backs such as the Skye Terrier - but in the final line up at Crufts I would have given the Skye Terrier Reserve BIS behind Jilly because she was so stunning. Unlike you, I am not blinded by prejudice.


----------



## Elles

Well, well, well. lol

I would say the back curves. I don't think if I got my ruler out I could draw a straight line anywhere on his back. Looks curved to me.

I think I could draw a straight line on this one:

http://99mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/beautiful-sable-german-shepherd.jpg

Look at that hock...

I don't think straight lines are the only, or even most important consideration. 

jmho again though.


----------



## Spellweaver

Elles said:


> I don't think straight lines are the only, or even most important consideration.
> 
> jmho again though.


They're not, but Albert has this fixation :

If you saw this dog in the flesh Elles, you would be astounded by him - his health and vigour shine through every pore (or should that be paw :lol: ) And when he moves, he would take your breath away.

Usually at the group judging at a championship show, there are groups of people supporting each dog - ie the people who own the dog and their friends. They cheer like mad when their dog is exhibiting, and clap politely when the other dogs are, Yet at the championship shows where I have seen this dog in the group everyone - and I mean everyone - applauded and cheered him like mad. Now THAT says something.


----------



## Meezey

AlbertRoss said:


> If you think the dog in that photo has a straight back then you need to visit an optician.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, tell me, which part of this dog's back is straight?
> 
> Don't be absurd. It's clearly curved. And this isn't even a side view - like most photos of Elmo it's taken at an angle to disguise an obvious hump. The only reason he wins is because his owner happens to be a big noise in the Germanic breed world. The dog is so far away from all international standards it's a joke.


Crap better tell their web master then, as strangely there are quite a few pictures of side views of him as there are if you Google him! He's not my type of GSD, but you know what I'll take nothing away from him, he moves well, he works he commanded that ring! Again it's going to take time, but the straighter back GSD is out there winning.


----------



## AlbertRoss

Meezey said:


> Crap better tell their web master then, as strangely there are quite a few pictures of side views of him as there are if you Google him! He's not my type of GSD, but you know what I'll take nothing away from him, he moves well, he works he commanded that ring! Again it's going to take time, but the straighter back GSD is out there winning.


er, no there aren't. Try again. There are 3 pictures of Elmo from a side view (Elmo von Hunchback). In all three there is an obvious hump in his back. His action in the ring in the group was appalling - Stephen could hardly control him and Stephen is an excellent handler. It's extremely sad that the Germanic supporters are so much in denial about their type that they have to persist in the charade that their dogs have straight backs.

You are right about straight back winning - they win at most open shows. Not just best of breed but pretty often Best in Show. Funnily enough, the banana backs don't win at those shows. That's because judges at those shows aren't Germanic supporters and judge to the standard.

As for Spellweaver's insistence that the dog has a straight back: "His back goes from the middle of the guy's right thigh to the middle of the guy's left knee in a straight slope, then curves gently down to the croup. Just as the breed standard says it should." That is obvious rubbish.

The standard says - and it's so important that it's a health issue - "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly* in a straight line to the* gently sloping *croup*". This dog's back is curved. No ifs - no buts. There's a total denial of 'straight' by those who support the Germanic type. But it's 100% certain that this is a health problem - The Bateson Report specifically cites "banana back" GSDs as having a problem. But that, of course, is also brushed aside in the rush for the big money. And the standard also says: "Weak, soft and* roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised*". Elmo's back is such that he should have been penalised - but, hey, Germanic type judges always ignore that part of the standard too.

So come on Spellweaver - you said "curves gently down to the croup" and the standard says "in a straight line to the gently sloping croup". Admit that you are wrong. Or are you right and the standard (in both the UK and Germany) is wrong? :nonod: You are making a fool of yourself.


----------



## AlbertRoss

Elles said:


> Well, well, well. lol
> 
> I would say the back curves. I don't think if I got my ruler out I could draw a straight line anywhere on his back. Looks curved to me.
> 
> I think I could draw a straight line on this one:
> 
> http://99mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/beautiful-sable-german-shepherd.jpg
> 
> Look at that hock...
> 
> I don't think straight lines are the only, or even most important consideration.
> 
> jmho again though.


The straight line is important because not having a straight back is detrimental to the health of the dog. The Bateson report says so and published veterinary research proves it. The banana back is a result of 2 brothers in Germany who manipulated the breed for massive personal financial gain in the 1970s. I've posted pictures and videos on here before about the terrible effect this has on the breed with dogs down on their hocks and virtually unable to walk. But there's too much money invested in the breed by the Germanic supporters to change things. Even the Kennel Club seem to have given up trying to fight them - despite promises made in 2010 that they would require the Germanic breed clubs to sign up to health agreements they seem to have gone back on it. But - it's all about money. The KC don't want to lose the fees they get from the Germanic breeders and they are reneging on their demands for improvements in breed conformation. It's that simple.


----------



## Meezey

Was the Bitch CC not a Germanic bitch? Correct me if I'm wrong, does she not have a pretty straight top line?


----------



## Jordansaurus

I personally think that crufts has improved immensely these past couple of years. I dont understand how people are still putting the kennel club down because of some very few irresponsible breeders (often international ones). All high profile breeds are health checked before progressing in the show, what more can the kennel club do, after all, its not one big headquarters churning out kc puppies one after another, its individual breeders that are doing it. 

Jilly deserved to win in every single way, a rare breed got the recognition it deserved, the breeders, owners and handler had done everything in their power to make sure that she did well. And my god, doesnt that dog look unloved and uncared for 

And like it was said, it was her last show before going into retirement even if she won or not, so its not as if that winning crufts was what they were aiming for with her in some sense, otherwise they would have mentioned keeping her showing until she did win, NO? She could have kept showing , she was in no way a veteran, only 4 years old I think, and what a gorgeous dog she was!


----------



## AlbertRoss

Meezey said:


> Was the Bitch CC not a Germanic bitch? Correct me if I'm wrong, does she not have a pretty straight top line?


No, the dog doesn't have a straight topline. Sadly. (I could elaborate on the history of the dog and its owner but it would be unfair to do so. Sufficient to say that I'm happy for her that she won - but sad that she didn't use the type of dog she has shown previously).

The only dog in the GSD class that came sufficiently close to the standard was one of the puppies.


----------



## Meezey

AlbertRoss said:


> No, the dog doesn't have a straight topline. Sadly. (I could elaborate on the history of the dog and its owner but it would be unfair to do so. Sufficient to say that I'm happy for her that she won - but sad that she didn't use the type of dog she has shown previously).
> 
> The only dog in the GSD class that came sufficiently close to the standard was one of the puppies.


Hmmm interesting, did her breeding also not get Junior bitch? Just making sure it's the same person?


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## AlbertRoss

Meezey said:


> Hmmm interesting, did her breeding also not get Junior bitch? Just making sure it's the same person?


Nixxie (Junior bitch) is Xoe's daughter. Her back is certainly better than her mother's - but then her father is a champion with a back you could use as a ruler.


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## Meezey

AlbertRoss said:


> Nixxie (Junior bitch) is Xoe's daughter. Her back is certainly better than her mother's - but then her father is a champion with a back you could use as a ruler.


Denver  ......


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## AlbertRoss

Meezey said:


> Denver  ......


Indeed. A superb dog. I knew his father (Chip) before his untimely demise. Chip's children and grandchildren have done fantastically well - particularly at open shows - and are great ambassadors for the GSD breed. It is a great shame that the KC have recognised this on the one hand and yet are going solely after the money by pandering to the Germanic type on the other.


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## FEJA JUODAS

excuse me but just browsing on this post reading the comments i find hilarious ! why ? well someone seems to have given view that crufts winner was aweful, which was then said to be nasty comment added to with i quote...<<wow! How nasty to call someone elses dog awful looking.

To be honest this is what I was thinking when I saw the lab "what a fat monstrosity,..>>

now excuse me but i see not much difference in calling a dog aweful to fat ! lol !!!

now i suggest, if someone said LOVELY DOG to a dog they thought aweful it could be viewed as polite and therefore ok...except it would be a lie, therefore to me not polite as untruthful...and surely, since therer are so many different types of dogs, it is obvious tastes are very different and obviously some find others horrible and others lovely and vice versa ! i doubt additionally that the winner of crufts whatever the dog was and i add my interest is only CURIOSITY in seeing dogs not interested really in finer points of what makes one better than another in looks...i am sure the winner is crowing all over the breeder websites etc and does not give two hoots for the views of people that do not matter !

maybe i an not SENSITIVE enough, but i would personally not be offended if anyone said they found my dog aweful ! everyone is allowed their view i say ! some breeds i find aweful for sure ! horrible ! monstrosities of nature even ! and i dare state it as the dogs suffer unable to breath even or walk without pain or run due to the human view of what is NOT aweful !!!

pictures give strange views of dogs often...some seem fat, some have longer noses than in reality due to lighting camera etc...and hey...if you have ever been to a dogshow i am often amazed any dog is judged well in teh poor lighting !!! lol !!!

anyway. whoever used the word aweful has apologised, so that makes it all right hey, and as for fatty labrador well lets not start apologising for that too i say if it is a valid point then why not make it i end by saying.sigh. i dont understand dogshows myself. it is just theatre in the final rings to enjoy ! i really dont care what the breed is if the dog looks nice to me walking around happily !!!

off this subject now.


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## JAChihuahua

FEJA JUODAS said:


> excuse me but just browsing on this post reading the comments i find hilarious ! why ? well someone seems to have given view that crufts winner was aweful, which was then said to be nasty comment added to with i quote...<<wow! How nasty to call someone elses dog awful looking.
> 
> To be honest this is what I was thinking when I saw the lab "what a fat monstrosity,..>>
> 
> now excuse me but i see not much difference in calling a dog aweful to fat ! lol !!!
> 
> now i suggest, if someone said LOVELY DOG to a dog they thought aweful it could be viewed as polite and therefore ok...except it would be a lie, therefore to me not polite as untruthful...and surely, since therer are so many different types of dogs, it is obvious tastes are very different and obviously some find others horrible and others lovely and vice versa ! i doubt additionally that the winner of crufts whatever the dog was and i add my interest is only CURIOSITY in seeing dogs not interested really in finer points of what makes one better than another in looks...i am sure the winner is crowing all over the breeder websites etc and does not give two hoots for the views of people that do not matter !
> 
> maybe i an not SENSITIVE enough, but i would personally not be offended if anyone said they found my dog aweful ! everyone is allowed their view i say ! some breeds i find aweful for sure ! horrible ! monstrosities of nature even ! and i dare state it as the dogs suffer unable to breath even or walk without pain or run due to the human view of what is NOT aweful !!!
> 
> pictures give strange views of dogs often...some seem fat, some have longer noses than in reality due to lighting camera etc...and hey...if you have ever been to a dogshow i am often amazed any dog is judged well in teh poor lighting !!! lol !!!
> 
> anyway. whoever used the word aweful has apologised, so that makes it all right hey, and as for fatty labrador well lets not start apologising for that too i say if it is a valid point then why not make it i end by saying.sigh. i dont understand dogshows myself. it is just theatre in the final rings to enjoy ! i really dont care what the breed is if the dog looks nice to me walking around happily !!!
> 
> off this subject now.


 oh for goodness sake... re-read my post and you can CLEARLY see that I was saying so to make a point. The point being that calling dogs awfu/fat etc is not the sort of post that should be on the forum.

If your going to quote me then at least take it in context.


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## Meezey

FEJA JUODAS said:


> excuse me but just browsing on this post reading the comments i find hilarious ! why ? well someone seems to have given view that crufts winner was aweful, which was then said to be nasty comment added to with i quote...<<wow! How nasty to call someone elses dog awful looking.
> 
> To be honest this is what I was thinking when I saw the lab "what a fat monstrosity,..>>
> 
> now excuse me but i see not much difference in calling a dog aweful to fat ! lol !!!
> 
> now i suggest, if someone said LOVELY DOG to a dog they thought aweful it could be viewed as polite and therefore ok...except it would be a lie, therefore to me not polite as untruthful...and surely, since therer are so many different types of dogs, it is obvious tastes are very different and obviously some find others horrible and others lovely and vice versa ! i doubt additionally that the winner of crufts whatever the dog was and i add my interest is only CURIOSITY in seeing dogs not interested really in finer points of what makes one better than another in looks...i am sure the winner is crowing all over the breeder websites etc and does not give two hoots for the views of people that do not matter !
> 
> maybe i an not SENSITIVE enough, but i would personally not be offended if anyone said they found my dog aweful ! everyone is allowed their view i say ! some breeds i find aweful for sure ! horrible ! monstrosities of nature even ! and i dare state it as the dogs suffer unable to breath even or walk without pain or run due to the human view of what is NOT aweful !!!
> 
> pictures give strange views of dogs often...some seem fat, some have longer noses than in reality due to lighting camera etc...and hey...if you have ever been to a dogshow i am often amazed any dog is judged well in teh poor lighting !!! lol !!!
> 
> anyway. whoever used the word aweful has apologised, so that makes it all right hey, and as for fatty labrador well lets not start apologising for that too i say if it is a valid point then why not make it i end by saying.sigh. i dont understand dogshows myself. it is just theatre in the final rings to enjoy ! i really dont care what the breed is if the dog looks nice to me walking around happily !!!
> 
> off this subject now.


confused.com :huh:


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