# More labrador woes



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

As many people know, we've had an issue with rapidly approaching labs for a while http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/219123-very-specific-problem.html. Things had been going pretty well; recalling and lead on when a lab is spotted (although if they still jump all over him he still tries to hump, but can be controlled). We are (were?) at the stage where calm intros to black and chocolate labs results in play without humping - if the play gets too excitable then Kilo goes back on his lead again until calmer.

Over the past 3 weeks or so, I can think of 5 separate incidents where labs have 'gone' for Kilo - due to his body language I am fairly sure. The first incidence was an offlead black lab who ran over growling and posturing and having a snap - Kilo had been sat and focussed on me, so not his fault.

The second incident was when I had taken Kilo off to the side to let a man and two labs past on a walk, they were excitable and the man walked them over - Kilo stiffened, hackles rose; the labs stiffened, hackles rose and one had a growl and snap. Kilo responded by barking.

The third time was the same as above, even though I had asked the man to just avoid us - but he said his was friendly and walked up anyway. Kilo stiffened first, lab reacted to that.

The fourth time was when Kilo went to the dog boarder's last week for his 24hr trial. Two labs were in for daycare and apparently 'went' for Kilo three times (offlead). When I asked the woman what had happened she said that they had just 'gone' for him and he had responded by running away. They had also done the same with a husky. She had then separated them for the rest of the day - and has promised that he won't be mixed with black labs when he goes next week for a few days.

The last occasion was today. We were walking on the beach and I saw a black blur approaching at high speed, owner just visible but about 5-10 minutes' walk away. I didn't put Kilo's lead on. It turned out to be a lab....rather than lying down as usual Kilo just stiffened, hackles up, tail straight out behind him. The lab came over and displayed the same body language. There were a tense few seconds until Kilo decided that to come with me was a good option BUT the lab kept following, coming round to the front of Kilo, staring directly, hackles up. I kept walking to keep Kilo moving, but just couldn't get rid of this dog - I didn't want to put Kilo on the lead in case that made him react. So, after a few minutes of this horrible situation with the lab still pestering Kilo suddenly tried to hump (he hadn't shown any signs although was very anxious - lip licking etc). Just as I saw him about to go for it I pulled him away and the lab reacted with loads of snarling and barking and Kilo barked back - the lab then decided to follow but leave us alone thank goodness and we went on our way. We met the owner just as we were walking away and he just said "oh, he needs to understand that not everyone wants to play".

So...I am becoming worried that Kilo is going to start trouble. I am fairly convinced that the root of this still lies in anxiety. I know that it is my job to protect him, at which I failed miserably today as I couldn't get rid of this dog through shouting at it.

At present, I keep him away from all black and chocolate labs unless they are ones that we already know and he plays / walks with without trouble or unless they approach calmly with an owner. Unfortunately, we still meet loads of them who come up to us offlead as their owners round here assume that because their dogs are friendly there won't be a problem, even though I have started telling them that my dog might not be good with them (if I see an owner or they are within earshot). When this happens, Kilo seems to feel trapped and anxious - but I don't want to let him offlead when they are approaching as he'll more than likely try to hump them.

I'm looking at going back to training classes to work on this in a controlled environment and seek advice - but what else can I do in the meantime?


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I haven't got any constructive advice. Sorry.
Just wanted to let you know we are having issues with Labs as well. Although, luckily, Terence doesn't react.
Only Monday, Terence was attacked by 2 Labs who rounded on him for no obvious reason at all. 

Hope you figure something out soon. xx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> I haven't got any constructive advice. Sorry.
> Just wanted to let you know we are having issues with Labs as well. Although, luckily, Terence doesn't react.
> Only Monday, Terence was attacked by 2 Labs who rounded on him for no obvious reason at all.
> 
> Hope you figure something out soon. xx


Kilo didn't used to react and so far has chosen humping or barking and running away, but his body language is becoming more confrontational which is what has begun to concern me . He has always been a little afraid of black labs, right from one who used to bully the other pups in puppy class, but things have started to get much worse since that one rushed at him and knocked him flying that I posted about a while ago.

I'm sure we'll get there.

Hope Mr T is OK xx.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Kilo didn't used to react and so far has chosen humping or barking and running away, but his body language is becoming more confrontational which is what has begun to concern me . He has always been a little afraid of black labs, right from one who used to bully the other pups in puppy class, but things have started to get much worse since that one rushed at him and knocked him flying that I posted about a while ago.
> 
> I'm sure we'll get there.
> 
> Hope Mr T is OK xx.


Yes, he is fine, thanks. All injuries are just superficial.

I am concerned that Terence's approach might change, too. I have decided that we will avoid all unknown Labradors from now on. It's just not worth it. He gets on with so many other dogs and I feel he won't be missing out if I take precautions with Labs. He still gets to play with Sleeping_Lion's lot and hopefully, that'll be enough.

I wish people were more considerate of other people when out and about with their dogs.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> Yes, he is fine, thanks. All injuries are just superficial.
> 
> I am concerned that Terence's approach might change, too. *I have decided that we will avoid all unknown Labradors from now on*. It's just not worth it. He gets on with so many other dogs and I feel he won't be missing out if I take precautions with Labs. He still gets to play with Sleeping_Lion's lot and hopefully, that'll be enough.
> 
> I wish people were more considerate of other people when out and about with their dogs.


Good luck with that - I've been trying for a while but tend to see the dogs long before the owners .


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Good luck with that - I've been trying for a while but tend to see the dogs long before the owners .


Yes, unfortunately, that's true here, too. Or the owners just don't care that their dogs just went for someone. The guy who owned the 2 Labs the other day just jogged on. :nonod:


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

Sorry I don't really have any advice but I suppose you are lucky that it is specific to one breed and that that breed is so numerous that you will hopefully be able to find some responsible owners with reliable and trained dogs that Kilo can get some positive experiences with . Hopefully that is all it will take and he will realise that not all labs are bad. At the end of the day though you are being responsible and keeping control of your dog when you know he might be unpredictable and it is not your fault if other people let their labs go rampaging up to strange or nervous dogs and cause trouble. Good luck anyway though .


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

At the beginning I was going to say do you have any black/brown labs you know well that you could sort of re-socialise him with them - sort of from a distance and reward for seeing them and being calm and then building it up, but then you said he walks okay with some others? Do you know any that he doesn't meet regularly, but you know that you could do this with?

Hope it gets better soon x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I could almost cry; must be having a bad labrador week . Just went to the park, saw a lively looking lab offlead so took Kilo off the path onto a field and sat him. Told the owner that Kilo wasn't good with some labs....hers came over, had a sniff; Kilo stood, postured, hackles up and the lab reacted with barks and snarls...then the poor dog got clocked round the head with the big stick the owner was carrying for being aggressive . It was definitely Kilo's body language again. He doesn't growl (that I can hear or feel through the lead) but does exhibit less than friendly body language.

After that we met an elderly, steady lab who we walked past no problem even though he was offlead and came across for a brief sniff.

It's the young, excitable labs that we are having problems with. I'm sure I'll manage to sort it, but can't deny that I'm really upset because I put so much effort into Kilo's training and socialisation but have obviously still failed him.


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I could almost cry; must be having a bad labrador week . Just went to the park, saw a lively looking lab offlead so took Kilo off the path onto a field and sat him. Told the owner that Kilo wasn't good with some labs....hers came over, had a sniff; Kilo stood, postured, hackles up and the lab reacted with barks and snarls...then the poor dog got clocked round the head with the big stick the owner was carrying for being aggressive . It was definitely Kilo's body language again. He doesn't growl (that I can hear or feel through the lead) but does exhibit less than friendly body language.
> 
> After that we met an elderly, steady lab who we walked past no problem even though he was offlead and came across for a brief sniff.
> 
> It's the young, excitable labs that we are having problems with. I'm sure I'll manage to sort it, but can't deny that I'm really upset because I put so much effort into Kilo's training and socialisation but have obviously still failed him.


Some things are completely unavoidable, if you think this stems from when he was in the puppy class, then there is no way that you have failed him. Obviously I haven't seen him, but he looks like a perfectly happy dog, and we all know how much you love him (and we all love him too :blushing. It's just one of those little things that needs some work - if he barks, and doesn't growl etc, that's a good sign at least he's not 'going' for them...

I really don't know what else to say, but didn't want to say nothing.

x


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Don't be so hard on yourself. You haven't failed Kilo at all. The people who continue to let their unwelcome dogs approach are failing him. In those situations all you can do is manage it as best you can, which you do very well. We can never be 100% sure that our dogs will not be accosted by "inyerface" unwelcome approaches. When this happens (and it does happen to most, if not all of us) you need to just put it behind you.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Really sorry you're having this. As a Lab owner my thoughts are:

Labs do have a habit of thundering over to other dogs to check them out. I can understand that Kilo perhaps doesn't like this especially as he had a negative experience with a black Lab that you mentioned?

In so many of the situations you describe Kilo is the innocent party, as it were. It's a real shame that these other dog owners don't listen when you tell them to please keep a bit of distance! How frustrating for you 

I think I might be tempted to tell a white lie next time and yell out 'PLEASE KEEP YOUR DOG AWAY: POLICE DOG IN TRAINING HERE!'

When a Lab does come zooming over, is there any way of distracting Kilo with a game/toy/treat?

Or maybe just placing yourself between Kilo and the Lab to break any eye contact etc?

Sorry if this isn't helpful, I'm sure others will be along with more specific advice. You are certainly doing all that any dog owner can do


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

How old is Kilo now? He could be going through a posturing stage, being entire gives him (or so he might think) the edge over some dogs and because he's bigger/taller/heavier than most he might be thinking he can sort any potential problem out by displaying such behaviour. I've had this with one of my Rotties, so what I wanted him to do, regardless of what we were doing, or where we were, I made him lie down. I also carry a large stick for walking which can keep any wayward dog at a distance.

Getting and keeping him in a down position made him look smaller to other dogs, less strutting his stuff, he couldn't do it, and it deflated any bravado inclinations he might have had. If the wayward dog insisted on coming over, I would then use the stick to block it. Thrashing a stick to the ground tends to make owners appear rather quicker if they think there's even a hint of their dog being smacked with it.

Teaching my boys to lie down and stay in that position saves a lot of encounters that might have ended differently with excitable dogs.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

WhippetyAmey said:


> Some things are completely unavoidable, if you think this stems from when he was in the puppy class, then there is no way that you have failed him. Obviously I haven't seen him, but he looks like a perfectly happy dog, and we all know how much you love him (and we all love him too :blushing. It's just one of those little things that needs some work - if he barks, and doesn't growl etc, that's a good sign at least he's not 'going' for them...
> 
> I really don't know what else to say, but didn't want to say nothing.
> 
> x


No, it's all noise and he distances himself rather than going at them which I am pleased with at least.



TabithaJ said:


> Really sorry you're having this. As a Lab owner my thoughts are:
> 
> Labs do have a habit of thundering over to other dogs to check them out. I can understand that Kilo perhaps doesn't like this especially as he had a negative experience with a black Lab that you mentioned?
> 
> ...


I do sit him and get him to 'watch' which he does well which prevents him making any eye contact - we can also walk past most dogs using watch if he is being excitable - if the other dog is also excitable I sit him and let them past. His excitement is usually wanting to greet, rather than being unfriendly, but still needs stopping (we are there with all but other very bouncy dogs who also want to greet!).

When I step between Kilo and a lab it is sometimes successful, but the incoming dog often manages to dodge round and Kilo doesn't help as he then stands to greet. He is often absolutely fine but we have had a bad few days. It is very odd as countless dogs of other breeds run up to us in the park every day and Kilo has, without fail, been friendly towards them even though he's been on lead and they have been off.

I do understand what you mean about the 'innocent party' in a way - although I am sure it is his unfriendly body language and posturing which provokes the other dogs to react. The frustrating thing is I can get him to sit or lie down or play with a toy with me and he'll focus nicely until the dog is right there and then we lose it. Sure we'll get there; I have contacted a trainer and am waiting to hear back.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

I read somewhere (think it may have been Turid Rugaas) that it is very difficult for a dog to read the facial expressions of dogs with all black faces such as labradors. I don't know the history of Kilo but if he already had a bad experience, could it be that he is wary because he can't clearly read the other dog's intention or mood. That might explain why this is specific to black labs. Doesn't help I know, but it may at least help to understand the reason.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Do you think that because of the ridge the other dogs may feel threatened and think it is his hackles?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

8tansox said:


> How old is Kilo now? He could be going through a posturing stage, being entire gives him (or so he might think) the edge over some dogs and because he's bigger/taller/heavier than most he might be thinking he can sort any potential problem out by displaying such behaviour. I've had this with one of my Rotties, so what I wanted him to do, regardless of what we were doing, or where we were, I made him lie down. I also carry a large stick for walking which can keep any wayward dog at a distance.
> 
> Getting and keeping him in a down position made him look smaller to other dogs, less strutting his stuff, he couldn't do it, and it deflated any bravado inclinations he might have had. If the wayward dog insisted on coming over, I would then use the stick to block it. Thrashing a stick to the ground tends to make owners appear rather quicker if they think there's even a hint of their dog being smacked with it.
> 
> Teaching my boys to lie down and stay in that position saves a lot of encounters that might have ended differently with excitable dogs.


He is 18 months and I did wonder about that. He 99% of the time lies down and looks away from any incoming dog anyway if they are racing over; but has stopped with some, like today. I think I'll try that - I often get him to sit and focus on me as he can't make eye contact, but will try getting him to lie.



dandogman said:


> Do you think that because of the ridge the other dogs may feel threatened and think it is his hackles?


Apparently some dogs can think the ridge is hackles yes, but as I have said in my post he is posturing and raising his hackles anyway as they run over to him.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Dexter is quite similar in that if he is on a lead and another dog is nearby, his tension/adrenaline/excitement level goes from 0 to 100 in a second.

Like you, I use the 'watch me' and find it really helpful.

Just a thought: it's very frustrating for you when off lead Labs come racing over, it is at all possible that Kilo is picking up on your frustration...?

- this suggestion not at all intended to suggest that you are doing anything 'wrong', as for what it's worth, sounds to me like you work really hard with your dog, a lot more than the owners who allow their dogs to come zooming up!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

TabithaJ said:


> Dexter is quite similar in that if he is on a lead and another dog is nearby, his tension/adrenaline/excitement level goes from 0 to 100 in a second.
> 
> Like you, I use the 'watch me' and find it really helpful.
> 
> ...


Absolutely; I have to make a real effort to not shorten the lead, to say 'watch' in a nice chatty voice or even say to the owner today that Kilo wasn't too good with some dogs in a manner that isn't stressed. I'm sure I'm contributing - I thought 'oh sh*t' this morning at how that might pan out as both dogs were so tense and I am sure Kilo picked that up.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

In your situation I'd carry a pet corrector spray, or an air horn, and give any incoming lab a blast of whichever.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

We had a bad lab encounter the other week. 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/232721-stoopid-woman.html

And then another incident the same week (different dog) so now Louie is a bit more wary of more dogs now than he was ever. Which is sad because he is or was a well socialised and *well behaved dog. I'm hoping it hasn't had too much of an affect on him as he hasn't really come across any new dogs, but I know both incidents have made me more wary and p*ssed off that I don't feel 100% safe anymore walking my dog!

I can offer both my lab look a likes for training if they are needed. We'll just stand to the side or walk alongside - they need to learn to ignore other dogs more and both are calm - Louie generally says hello, has a little play (if the other dog wants to) and then does his own thing anyway - not really lab like but they look it.

Hope Kilo and Mr T are OK. I think most Lab owners think because their dog is a lab and is friendly then they're fine, but people are stupid.

*Well behaved - he did run over to other dogs occasionally after months of training, but always heeded the signals


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> In your situation I'd carry a pet corrector spray, or an air horn, and give any incoming lab a blast of whichever.


I am worried about scaring Kilo too and him thinking dog = awful noise. A woman at ringcraft used to use a pet corrector on her dog and Kilo used to be pretty worried by it. It's difficult really. He plays with most incoming dogs or sniffs and moves on but labs....a headache!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SLB said:


> We had a bad lab encounter the other week.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/232721-stoopid-woman.html
> 
> And then another incident the same week (different dog) so now Louie is a bit more wary of more dogs now than he was ever. Which is sad because he is or was a well socialised and *well behaved dog. I'm hoping it hasn't had too much of an affect on him as he hasn't really come across any new dogs, but I know both incidents have made me more wary and p*ssed off that I don't feel 100% safe anymore walking my dog!
> ...


If I wasn't in NI I'd take you up on the offer! Kilo's fine with well behaved ones, even those who approach and has successful lab encounters nearly every day (there are a lot round here!)...it's the speed and force of the approach that seems to tip the balance . Unfortunately those who approach like that also seem to have owners that just let them do their own thing.

I am sorry that you don't feel safe walking anymore; I feel less safe as well, but from the other POV in terms of Kilo kicking something off (he hasn't ever touched a dog I hasten to add). If a dog gives him 'bugger off' or 'I don't want to play' signals he'll heed them, but will react in the situation I've posted about.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

SLB said:


> I think* most Lab owners t*hink because their dog is a lab and is friendly then they're fine, but people are stupid.


Now now... no bashing of Lab owners please 

There are good and bad owners of all breeds.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

TabithaJ said:


> Now now... no bashing of Lab owners please
> 
> There are good and bad owners of all breeds.


I used the word "most" now if I said "All" then you have the right to tell me off  but I didn't so it's not bashing


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

TabithaJ said:


> Now now... no bashing of Lab owners please
> 
> There are good and bad owners of all breeds.


I'm afraid I have to agree.

Many many lab owners are completely oblivious to this problem. It does seem to be more common with them. Perhaps because they are so popular and naturally friendly


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree.
> 
> Many many lab owners are completely oblivious to this problem. It does seem to be more common with them. Perhaps because they are so popular and naturally friendly


I remember very well someone on this forum saying that a friendly dog could do no harm and arguing the point quite heatedly; I think it is a common misconception. Although I have a friendly (usually!) but somewhat easily intimidated dog I don't think that it does any one of us dog owners, no matter how social (or not) our dogs any harm whatsoever to consider every other owner.

I also remember posting this http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/214118-those-who-say-friendly-dogs-can-do-no-harm.html which was the point at which Kilo stopped running from over enthusiastic labs (always did as we unfortunately used to meet some who were bullies regularly, one from puppy class and a few walked by a dog walker who used to laugh as Kilo panicked and ran ) and at which the humping / lying down etc started.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree.
> 
> Many many lab owners are completely oblivious to this problem. It does seem to be more common with them. Perhaps because they are so popular and naturally friendly


I do agree that as a breed, Labs are quick to want to zoom over and greet any dog they see.

My point is just that there are plenty of responsible Lab owners (I like to consider myself one of them )


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

TabithaJ said:


> I do agree that as a breed, Labs are quick to want to zoom over and greet any dog they see.
> 
> My point is just that there are plenty of responsible Lab owners (I like to consider myself one of them )


I meet plenty too - hope you don't think this whole thread is a 'bash' .


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

8tansox said:


> How old is Kilo now? He could be going through a posturing stage, being entire gives him (or so he might think) the edge over some dogs and because he's bigger/taller/heavier than most he might be thinking he can sort any potential problem out by displaying such behaviour. I've had this with one of my Rotties, so what I wanted him to do, regardless of what we were doing, or where we were, I made him lie down. I also carry a large stick for walking which can keep any wayward dog at a distance.
> 
> Getting and keeping him in a down position made him look smaller to other dogs, less strutting his stuff, he couldn't do it, and it deflated any bravado inclinations he might have had. If the wayward dog insisted on coming over, I would then use the stick to block it. Thrashing a stick to the ground tends to make owners appear rather quicker if they think there's even a hint of their dog being smacked with it.
> 
> Teaching my boys to lie down and stay in that position saves a lot of encounters that might have ended differently with excitable dogs.


I was going to ask how old he was and whether he was entire. If he's young and an adolescent, there is a risk that he is starting to assert himself. Agree with this post, and minimising this, otherwise it will become a learned behaviour

.PS - My black labs hate boisterous rude labs (actually any breed) running up to them too.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

Dogless said:


> It's the young, excitable labs that we are having problems with.


One of my dogs does not care for herding breeds who do the collie stare thing. Does not like it at all and can get really obnoxious about it.

As a human, I know there are some types of people I just don't like much. There are other personality types that are definite triggers for me and I can feel myself getting worked up just being in the presence of someone with a certain type of personality.

At 18 months your boy is just really starting to come in to his own personality-wise. He is at an age where he knows what he will and will not tolerate, but he might not know yet how to express that appropriately. (Though honestly, if all he's doing is stiffening at the approaching dog, to me that is more than fair warning and completely acceptable communication.) Its perfectly normal and natural for your dog to not like certain types of dogs and for certain dogs to not like him.

Maybe its a defeatist attitude (or maybe a realistic one), but I don't really care if my dogs like every dog they meet. My only criteria is that they do have to practice self-control and reasonable obedience.

If Kilo has a good "watch me" I would exploit that. I personally would carry a walking stick and if Kilo shows that he does not want the other dog approaching and the owners are clueless and not controlling their dog, I would ask Kilo to "watch me" and move him away while placing the stick in front of the approaching dog and telling him with a stern voice to "get".

IMO Kilo is being more than fair by telling the other dog to back off, and I would back him up so he doesn't feel he needs to escalate his warning.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I was going to ask how old he was and whether he was entire. If he's young and an adolescent, there is a risk that he is starting to assert himself. Agree with this post, and minimising this, otherwise it will become a learned behaviour
> 
> .PS - My black labs hate boisterous rude labs (actually any breed) running up to them too.


Wasn't a breed bash....just that they are the only breed we're having dramas with at present! I will definitely try getting him to lie instead of sit. I have currently been trying to avoid labs to prevent it becoming a learned behaviour, but clearly it's not foolproof at all .


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> One of my dogs does not care for herding breeds who do the collie stare thing. Does not like it at all and can get really obnoxious about it.
> 
> As a human, I know there are some types of people I just don't like much. There are other personality types that are definite triggers for me and I can feel myself getting worked up just being in the presence of someone with a certain type of personality.
> 
> ...


Exactly that; I don't want him to escalate at all. He does have a good watch and will sit to the side and ignore until another dog actually makes physical contact. He didn't today as I left him offlead because I had expected him to run as usual from unwanted attention and didn't want him to feel trapped so my mistake. I don't need him to like all dogs; but do want him to be controlled.

I am also retraining LLW as he will lunge to the side for smells etc at times using Turid Rugaas' method - this is helping with focus on me much, much more as well although it's early days and I'm hoping that this will help.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I too have had major issues with Labradors. I accept it's probably the owners as opposed to the dogs, obviously, but I've had endless bloody problems with aggressive labs. At one point, I did wonder if some local idiot was inbreeding the or using the same sire with a poor temperament or something, but ultimately, I think some owners just expect Labradors to come ready trained and with nice natures. 

Very specific problem, Dogless. Perhaps talk to the bloke with the dodgy one and ask to walk with him, both dogs on lead? A calm reintroduction may work. Does Kilo like toys? If he can carry a ball, this will focus him more (tried and tested with my super aggressive dog, sometimes works ) That or the watch, treat command?

I don't like everyone, so I can understand Kilo, no matter how much excellent socialisation you've done with him, not liking a couple of other dogs.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Wasn't a breed bash....just that they are the only breed we're having dramas with at present! I will definitely try getting him to lie instead of sit. I have currently been trying to avoid labs to prevent it becoming a learned behaviour, but clearly it's not foolproof at all .


No, I realised that  hence the 

I agree with ouesi - I don't expect my dogs to like all dogs - and they don't like rude, boisterous ones  but as ouesi says, it is about learning self control. I think the most important thing is to be in control of both Kilo and (as best you can) the other dog (a stick is always useful), showing him that you will deal with it and it is not down to him. With maturity and training he will learn self control, but he is at an age where it could go the other way.

Good luck - you have my sympathies as it is never easy to deal with rude dogs whose owners seem oblivious to their dog's behaviour


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I've never come across an aggressive lab.
I know I have a labrador myself, but I don't let him run riot. To be honest, if he's around dogs he doesn't know, he does want to run to them, but I don't let him, as he will stay on a long line. I would be very cross with myself if I just let him run over and cause problems for other people and their dogs.

That being said, he doesn't like overly boisterous dogs of any breed himself, he got bowled over by a Golden Retriever the other day and he wasn't very happy about it.
I know it's not a breed bash, I think it's a real shame that so many people have had bad experiences with labs, so I wish you luck


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

EmzieAngel said:


> I've never come across an aggressive lab.
> I know I have a labrador myself, but I don't let him run riot. To be honest, if he's around dogs he doesn't know, he does want to run to them, but I don't let him, as he will stay on a long line. I would be very cross with myself if I just let him run over and cause problems for other people and their dogs.
> 
> That being said, he doesn't like overly boisterous dogs of any breed himself, he got bowled over by a Golden Retriever the other day and he wasn't very happy about it.
> I know it's not a breed bash, I think it's a real shame that so many people have had bad experiences with labs, so I wish you luck


There are a few aggressive labs around here - two that are notoriously so - but then there are a few aggressive dogs of lots of breeds round here same as anywhere else!


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

ouesi said:


> One of my dogs does not care for herding breeds who do the collie stare thing. Does not like it at all and can get really obnoxious about it.
> 
> As a human, I know there are some types of people I just don't like much. There are other personality types that are definite triggers for me and I can feel myself getting worked up just being in the presence of someone with a certain type of personality.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this.

*Dogless*: no worries, I never thought for a second you were 'bashing' Labs, not at all! You are having a specific problem and I can understand why because Labs often are extremely keen to always rush over and engage with other dogs. Not surprised that Kilo doesn't much enjoy it.

You may possibly recall me mentioning the stunning Ridgeback at our local park? When I first got Dex, the Ridgeback used to react if Dex approached for a greeting - barking, growling, the works. Once he actually tried to nip Dexie and I only just managed to pull Dex out of the way. Dex was on a lead but still too bouncy for the Ridgie 

Dex had not been socialised and was very excitable around this dog. Now, though, they get on fine and greet each other really politely.


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi, if your dogs under control and the others are still rushing in .
There technicaly out of control.
I expect kilo will feel A bit restricted being leashed or made to concentrate on you when there's a nutter racing around him.
From what I've read back further in the thread it sounds like he mite have a little hang up on the labs after earlier encounters with them at your classes & bullying etc.
My last dog had a few issues with Scotty dogs after 1 tried to get under him & take a piece out of his chest.
Luckily I found an understanding owner and worked it out, as soon as he realised they Wernt going to have a go he calmed down...always wary but not going into a full on paddy.(I'd always be wary if some one had rubbed me up the wrong way )
He's gona be ready for them, ridgebacks strategise and he wants to protect himself from there rude In his face approach.
They also are a lot more reserved and aloof.( not trying to teach you to suck eggs here)Than a lab could ever understand lols.
I'm glad others have said about a staff or stick that's what I used to use with My last dog.
If a dog come bounding over in the wrong way and I spotted it in time takenice deep breath calmly I'd re call jak then try to send other dog away with a full on "NO AWAY" with hand signal.
If that didn't work ' owner was not insight then block with body and fend of with your stick, the owners obviously don't understand / aware that there dogs are Causing issues.
Failing that he used to come of the lead... 99% of the time there would be a few words said bit of posturing ( between dogs not owners)then the other dogs usually realised they may of bitten of more than they could chew!
And funnily enough the owners used to arrive pretty sharpish to!
My dogs welfare and safety/sanity are more important.
Sounds selfish but that's what the other people are being.
shame your over there cos are Charlie the chocky lab boy is very good at meeting others of lead and reads the signs well,he's very submissive but also boisterous if he thinks he can get away with it. 
I think all dogs are constantly seeing who's who in the order of life!
And I think we know what Zak & kilo would think of each other
Would be handy to find an understanding lab owner and try and work it out.
Hope you can sort it


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Halifu said:


> Hi, if your dogs under control and the others are still rushing in .
> There technicaly out of control.
> I expect kilo will feel A bit restricted being leashed or made to concentrate on you when there's a nutter racing around him.
> From what I've read back further in the thread it sounds like he mite have a little hang up on the labs after earlier encounters with them at your classes & bullying etc.
> ...


It's hard to know what to do really. If we are in the park, or on the towpath etc all dogs are meant to be on lead anyway, so he is on always, but most dogs aren't - lots of people leash their dogs though when they see yours is on and the other half let them race up.

If we are in the forest / on the beach I leash him if the other dog is near to their owner and usually they will do the same. If I can't see an owner or they are simply too far away I either leave him off (like today) or put the lead on as he'll hump and I worry that will kick off trouble. If I didn't know he'd try and hump if stressed then I'd be more likely to leave him off more.

I'm sure I'll work this whole thing out...


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm sure you will sort it
It will be interesting to hear what the trainner has to say about things.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Just seen LFL recommend the body language sticky here- perhaps theres something in that to help?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

TabithaJ said:


> I do agree that as a breed, Labs are quick to want to zoom over and greet any dog they see.
> 
> My point is just that there are plenty of responsible Lab owners (I like to consider myself one of them )


Some of us certainly try  I can't guarantee Spencer wouldn't go charging over to another dog given the chance but if it happened I'd be right there behind him apologising to the other dogs owner. And of course I take precautions so that it shouldn't happen.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Some of us certainly try  I can't guarantee Spencer wouldn't go charging over to another dog given the chance but if it happened I'd be right there behind him apologising to the other dogs owner. And of course I take precautions so that it shouldn't happen.


Most people on here would be mortified if their dog ran over and harassed somebody else. But a lot of people round here just don't give two hoots. Their dog is "friendly" so who cares if he runs over. That is certainly the attitude many people we meet have.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> Most people on here would be mortified if their dog ran over and harassed somebody else. But a lot of people round here just don't give two hoots. Their dog is "friendly" so who cares if he runs over. That is certainly the attitude many people we meet have.


But many people don`t have experience of timid or aggressive dogs - so they are oblivious. If you`ve only owned friendly confident dogs, you assume these owners glaring at you are antisocial or have `nasty` dogs and should clear off. No, I know it`s more than that but the General Public has never been known for empathy.....
I do think it would help if people could explain the problem to these owners. 
Or alternatively, develop and train strategies for coping. 
There`s no point (IMO) in just ranting - it makes you feel better but nothing changes.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> Just seen LFL recommend the body language sticky here- perhaps theres something in that to help?


I think I know what his body language is saying but will certainly have another read...just getting others to heed would be good! We met a choc lab this morning that came over fast, Kilo lay down, the lab stopped and didn't jump on him but walked over, so Kilo stood up; they greeted a little stiffly, Kilo wasn't relaxed but just recalled to me and the lab went back to his owner. It's the ones that ignore him ignoring them (if that makes sense?) that don't end so well!

I am feeling much more positive today; I have had some good advice here which I will take on board and some via PM too .


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> But many people don`t have experience of timid or aggressive dogs - so they are oblivious. If you`ve only owned friendly confident dogs, you assume these owners glaring at you are antisocial or have `nasty` dogs and should clear off. No, I know it`s more than that but the General Public has never been known for empathy.....
> I do think it would help if people could explain the problem to these owners.
> Or alternatively, develop and train strategies for coping.
> There`s no point (IMO) in just ranting - it makes you feel better but nothing changes.


I've tried explaining the problem to people, they tend not to want to know. I tried explaining that Rupert was scared witless of other dogs after being attacked so many times, their answer was generally "well my dog's friendly" no matter how much I tried to explain that that wasn't the point. Either that or that I shouldn't be walking a vicious dog in public. Same with Shadow when he was ill and infirm, I shouldn't be walking him if he couldn't cope with dogs jumping all over him.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> But many people don`t have experience of timid or aggressive dogs - so they are oblivious. If you`ve only owned friendly confident dogs, you assume these owners glaring at you are antisocial or have `nasty` dogs and should clear off. No, I know it`s more than that but the General Public has never been known for empathy.....
> I do think it would help if people could explain the problem to these owners.
> Or alternatively, develop and train strategies for coping.
> There`s no point (IMO) in just ranting - it makes you feel better but nothing changes.


Absolutely!!
I usually ask if it is okay if Terence approaches another dog.( I think it's good manners) The other day, a lady in the park said she would prefer it if he didn't and explained why her dog was nervous. She then added that she thought it was really nice of me that I asked and was understanding and that many people aren't and sometimes throw her dog back several weeks in training.


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## Guest (May 10, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Exactly that; *I don't want him to escalate at all.* He does have a good watch and will sit to the side and ignore until another dog actually makes physical contact. He didn't today as I left him offlead because I had expected him to run as usual from unwanted attention and didn't want him to feel trapped so my mistake. I don't need him to like all dogs; but do want him to be controlled.
> 
> I am also retraining LLW as he will lunge to the side for smells etc at times using Turid Rugaas' method - this is helping with focus on me much, much more as well although it's early days and I'm hoping that this will help.


This is just my experience, but if you don't want him to escalate, you need to have a way of communicating to him "I get that you're telling this dog to back off, I respect your feelings, and I will not take it from here and keep that dog away from you."
Sometimes you may fail at keeping the dog away, but if in 90% of the cases YOU take control of the situation and YOU tell the dog to get away, your dog will trust that he is being "heard" and will not escalate his warnings. 
Like I said, I believe a stiffening is more than fair warning to the other dog.

I think you are doing a good job with what you are already doing, I would just step up the part where you take charge of the other dog. Maybe I'm just a jerk, but I'm not shy about telling off other dogs who aren't being controlled.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> This is just my experience, but if you don't want him to escalate, you need to have a way of communicating to him "I get that you're telling this dog to back off, I respect your feelings, and I will not take it from here and keep that dog away from you."
> Sometimes you may fail at keeping the dog away, but if in 90% of the cases YOU take control of the situation and YOU tell the dog to get away, your dog will trust that he is being "heard" and will not escalate his warnings.
> Like I said, I believe a stiffening is more than fair warning to the other dog.
> 
> I think you are doing a good job with what you are already doing, I would just step up the part where you take charge of the other dog. Maybe I'm just a jerk, but *I'm not shy about telling off other dogs who aren't being controlled*.


Out of interest, how do you tell them to back off??


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> This is just my experience, but if you don't want him to escalate, you need to have a way of communicating to him "I get that you're telling this dog to back off, I respect your feelings, and I will not take it from here and keep that dog away from you."
> Sometimes you may fail at keeping the dog away, but if in 90% of the cases YOU take control of the situation and YOU tell the dog to get away, your dog will trust that he is being "heard" and will not escalate his warnings.
> Like I said, I believe a stiffening is more than fair warning to the other dog.
> 
> I think you are doing a good job with what you are already doing, *I would just step up the part where you take charge of the other dog.* Maybe I'm just a jerk, but I'm not shy about telling off other dogs who aren't being controlled.


Totally agree; I have been much better about this recently and have seen a difference in Kilo when I am successful. I am sure with consistency then we will get there, I really don't want to let him down.


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## Guest (May 10, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> Out of interest, how do you tell them to back off??


Unfortunately where I live there are a lot of loose/stray dogs. Most of the time I put my dogs behind me and a growled "get" while moving towards the loose dog gets them to back off. 
For the more persistent ones I grab a handful of gravel (I'm generally on dirt roads) and throw it hard at the ground in front of the dog, the pebbles scatter and disorient a dog bent on coming forward. A handfull of treats tossed the same way can have a similar effect plus buy you time to get away. Generally distance is the best de-escalation tool.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Just wanted to say a huge thank you to the contributors to this thread for all your advice. I went to the park when I knew that it would be busy today. Did lots of focus work around the bigger areas where dogs were playing. When labs approached I got Kilo to lie down, I stood in front of him and asked the owners to take theirs away or stamped my foot to get rid of them when the owners didn't or couldn't recall them from us.

What a difference! Firstly him lying down seemed to make owners realise that I didn't want him approached much more than when I have him sat. Secondly he was visibly a whole lot more relaxed which meant that I was . Lots of praise and a treat / fuss when we moved on after he hadn't reacted in any way (didn't the whole time) - we didn't have one problem and it was great. Had a few comments about if my dog wasn't friendly should he be in the park; can't get my dog back as he wants to be everyone's friend and it's good for them to socialise etc but I didn't mind those because at least I was achieving what I wanted to .

I'll see what happens when we go to our other walks where we see dogs way before owners but I'll try the same strategy again.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That's fantastic news - well done you & Kilo!!


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Well done Kilo and well done to you for all your hard work!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> That's fantastic news - well done you & Kilo!!


I could see the tension just drain out of him when I got him to lie down and stood in front of him. Poor dog, wish I'd been bright enough to have thought of it earlier .


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I could see the tension just drain out of him when I got him to lie down and stood in front of him. *Poor dog, wish I'd been bright enough to have thought of it earlier *.


So easy to say that in hindsight!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I could see the tension just drain out of him when I got him to lie down and stood in front of him. Poor dog, wish I'd been bright enough to have thought of it earlier .


What matters you've done it now and Kilo has responded well.  onwards and upwards


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

Pleased for you That's really great news
Well done the pair of you


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

Whoa lab bashing!! In my experience it's usually the BC owners that are completely hapless and haven't a chance in hell of preventing their dogs 'herd' my black 'sheep'. 

Glad ur getting a handle of it - i wonder of its cus you've more positive body language now you have an action plan?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

keirk said:


> Whoa lab bashing!! In my experience it's usually the BC owners that are completely hapless and haven't a chance in hell of preventing their dogs 'herd' my black 'sheep'.
> 
> Glad ur getting a handle of it - *i wonder of its cus you've more positive body language now you have an action plan*?


More than likely - had another successful walk yesterday.

The thread wasn't meant as a lab bash as I've said before - but they are the breed that we've been having 'problems' with; please don't let it turn into a BC bash .


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