# First time stud dog help



## Resolute ES (Jul 4, 2012)

I am a responsible breeder. Both dogs are champions, my dog is 10 points from his grand. Both dogs are OFA, BAER tested, CHIC dogs.

We have done target testing. These are English Setters, a difficult breed to breed to begin with. They are known to ovulate extremely late in their cycles and the studs are not generally aggressive breeders.

We have been doing target testing, we are on day 21 and according to testing she is ready. This is her first litter at 6 years so we have been doing AIs the last week to cover her in case of test error.

This is my stud dog's first litter. Yes, it would be better to use him on a bitch that knows what she is doing or vice versa, bit this should be a beautiful litter.

He will not mount her. This morning after about half an hour, he would finally put his paws up on her neck and head. She is not a big flirt either. It is over 90 here, but they are in the air. We are using the coolest room in the house with carpeting for good footing. If I try to place him on her, he just kind of melts and gets off. They wwre hot and exhausted, so the bitch owner left here here with me to try again later. I can AI again, but a natural breeding is always better, ESPECIALLY in this breed.

Any advice? Are some boys just slow to get the idea? Especially when the bitch isn't throwing the best signals either? I have them in the cool, crated to rest. Can I try again in a few hours and then again later tonight?

He is a very soft dog (the breed is in general). 

Thanks!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sounds like the bitch isnt ready for mating to me. I dont know anything about this target business as my stud knows exactly when a bitch is ready to be mated and I leave it to him 

With regard males being slow on the uptake - definitely havent found this. 

Did I read right that the bitch is 6 years old and this will potentially be her first litter


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

its great that you have done all the relevent tests,but six is too old in my opinion for a 1st litter


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

i have to agree that six sounds a little old for a first litter, but i have heard it happen and all go well, then again ive seen it go horribly wrong as well...

are you sure she has normal seasons? kuki had a split season when she concieved her 1st litter, a week after the unsucessful mating i had to call up again and apologise to tell him she was ready This time , thankfully he called Her a pain and not me!

is there noone more experienced with your breed that you could call for advise? i say this because chichi (obviously) has chis, i have yorkies... i dont know of any ES breeders here. (am i wrong on that anyone?  )

eta- when kuki went to stud and wasnt ready (even though all the signs had Seemed to be there because i was looking soo hard for them) the stud was still going crazy trying to mate; i really did feel bad for the poor lad... what age is your boy?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I agree with Kokakkuki that you need advice from an ES breeder. Breeding a 6 gear old Chi for the first fime would be insane but perhaps other breeds are different? I wouldnt know. Hope somebody in the know for your breed comes along to help. Hope it all works out in the end.


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## Resolute ES (Jul 4, 2012)

Wow, I expected a little more than your admonition of the bitch's age. The vet says she is perfectly healthy and her owner was ill and unable to breed her before. She only comes in once a year. This bitch is a repeat breeding of the #1 specialty winning ES of all time, and sister to the #1 ES for 2010 and #5 ranked ES currently (after a year off and didn't start this year until April).

We got a natural breeding a few hours later.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

I bred my female at 6yrs for first and only litter. She was fine. Normally I don't wait so long 3-4yrs is good. 

Glad to hear you got it done though. Some males are slow to catch on or not aggressive breeders. I've heard stories of crazy dogs that are all about breeding if they so much as smell a female from how ever far away, who won't eat, get stressed, ect But I've seen the opposite as well, even if the bitch is ready. Had a bitch with a split season mentioned also like the other poster mentioned.


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## kalindra (Jun 23, 2012)

Resolute ES said:


> I am a responsible breeder. Both dogs are champions, my dog is 10 points from his grand. Both dogs are OFA, BAER tested, CHIC dogs.


Sorry but I don't see how your dogs being champions has anything to do with being a responsible breeder. I don't mean to offend, it's just that a lot of people seem to think that because a dog wins at shows, it somehow means it is healthy and well tempered!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> its great that you have done all the relevent tests,but six is too old in my opinion for a 1st litter


I agree. An English Setter is a big dog; what is the lifespan of this breed? At six she is middle aged.

I too do not understand what all these championships have to do with the bitch's health which should be your main consideration.

Did it ever occur to you that the bitch's owner is willing to use an untried dog of only one year old, because she cannot get a more experienced stud owner to entertain the idea of her bitch having a first litter at six years old?


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

My girls are retired at 6, not just starting, by 6 years old their pelvis has normally fused, which could mean a c-section, I wouldn't risk putting a 6 year old through a first pregnancy and surgery at this age.

Sorry I know it's not what you want to hear.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

I would not buy a puppy off a breeder which used a dog who was 6... Personally i think its too old for a first litter, its a time to be winding down not starting. I would call it irresponsible.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

hayleyth said:


> I would not buy a puppy off a breeder which used a dog who was 6... Personally i think its too old for a first litter, its a time to be winding down not starting. I would call it irresponsible.


Unfortunately English Setters are becoming quite a rare breed, so he will find buyers. I think it is irresponsible as well, and a huge danger to this girl's health.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't think they are in the UK as he says the stud is 10 points of being a grand champion. We don't have grand champions here so they are possibly on the continent, Australia or US.

Not that it makes much difference IMO 6 years is far to old for a first litter.


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## kalindra (Jun 23, 2012)

I also agree that 6 is too old. We have a 5 year old (almost 6) and we were carefully considering whether to let her have a litter, and she's had 2 already! Decided against it in the end.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

kalindra said:


> Sorry but I don't see how your dogs being champions has anything to do with being a responsible breeder. I don't mean to offend, it's just that a lot of people seem to think that because a dog wins at shows, it somehow means it is healthy and well tempered!


From someone who breeds GSDs without any working qualifications/proof of temperament?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I wouldn't care if a bitch was related to the most spectacular dog on earth. Six years is too old for first litter in my opinion.......champions do not factor in it whatsoever.


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## kalindra (Jun 23, 2012)

Shrap said:


> From someone who breeds GSDs without any working qualifications/proof of temperament?


How are working qualifications relevant? It doesn't mean anything! We breed PETS. What difference does it make if they don't have working qualifications?

As for "proof of temperament" - we know our dogs have good temperaments and that's proof in itself because we are responsible. As well as the fact that almost all of the pups we have homed have grown up to be well adjusted and happy dogs. We've only ever had 1 pup back, and that was due to idiot owners.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

kalindra said:


> How are working qualifications relevant? It doesn't mean anything! We breed PETS. What difference does it make if they don't have working qualifications?
> 
> As for "proof of temperament" - we know our dogs have good temperaments and that's proof in itself because we are responsible. As well as the fact that almost all of the pups we have homed have grown up to be well adjusted and happy dogs. We've only ever had 1 pup back, and that was due to idiot owners.


So pet breeding is acceptable in a working breed? If someone can't cope with a working breed they shouldn't get one. No excuse for breeders to breed out all the traits that define the breed.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shrap said:


> So pet breeding is acceptable in a working breed? If someone can't cope with a working breed they shouldn't get one. No excuse for breeders to breed out all the traits that define the breed.


At the risk of being turned on myself; this thread has nothing to do with working v pet breeding. Or am I missing the point


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

chichi said:


> At the risk of being turned on myself; this thread has nothing to do with working v pet breeding. Or am I missing the point


What did the OP's bitch's Temperament have to do with the OP?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shrap said:


> What did the OP's bitch's Temperament have to do with the OP?


Perhaps I'm being thick here and I promise you I'm not being wilfully ignorant; I'm just not with you. I have had a stressful day though, so maybe it will all fall into place after a chill and a cuppa:biggrin:

Temperament of a bitch is always high on any ethical breeders list, straight after health. Champions, etc. would factor in after those two for me, not just breeding an older bitch on first litter, just because she's related to x, y, z - if you get my point

Sorry if I'm still not getting the point.................


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## kalindra (Jun 23, 2012)

Shrap said:


> So pet breeding is acceptable in a working breed? If someone can't cope with a working breed they shouldn't get one. No excuse for breeders to breed out all the traits that define the breed.


No, we breed dogs that can work AND be a family pet. Any dog can grab a sleeve (though I'm surprised some of the GSDs today still can!), that doesn't make it a good working dog.

Have you even seen the state of the hind legs on some GSDs today? Don't tell me they are able to work!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

kalindra said:


> No, we breed dogs that can work AND be a family pet. Any dog can grab a sleeve (though I'm surprised some of the GSDs today still can!), that doesn't make it a good working dog.
> 
> Have you even seen the state of the hind legs on some GSDs today? Don't tell me they are able to work!


whats gsd.s got to do with this thread , for goodness sake lets stay on track


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

dexter said:


> whats gsd.s got to do with this thread , for goodness sake lets stay on track


I think OP has gone off in a huff anyway, so it can go where it likes I suppose. It is a pity that someone would think it acceptable to have a first litter from a bitch that old; I hope if she does get pregnant she survives.


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## kalindra (Jun 23, 2012)

dexter said:


> whats gsd.s got to do with this thread , for goodness sake lets stay on track


Sorry, it is very off topic! I'm trying to get a point across to someone, back track and you'll see


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

chichi said:


> Perhaps I'm being thick here and I promise you I'm not being wilfully ignorant; I'm just not with you. I have had a stressful day though, so maybe it will all fall into place after a chill and a cuppa:biggrin:
> 
> Temperament of a bitch is always high on any ethical breeders list, straight after health. Champions, etc. would factor in after those two for me, not just breeding an older bitch on first litter, just because she's related to x, y, z - if you get my point
> 
> Sorry if I'm still not getting the point.................


Obviously, but where is it indicated that the bitch in question has an unsound temperament? Kalindra replied as if the person was breeding from a nervous, unhealthy wreck just because it has been shown with success. Even though her own dogs are show line and her dogs make absolutely no contribution to the gene pool.

I just thought she had a cheek to start on something completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, being the OP breeding from a girl that's too old to be done relatively safely.

The merits of Schutzhund isn't really a topic for here, but I think the fact that "any dog can grab a sleeve" is a poor excuse for ignoring the fact that breeding dogs should be proven in their ability.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

At six its too old for first litter of any breed IMO. I tried with my girl 3 times, she didn't take and now she has hit six, Ive just had her nurtured. I have a nine month old pup, and couldn't take the risk that he COULD catch her. 
My girl didn't take for a reason, whatever that may be, but at six years old it a little too scary what could happen.
Got to be honest, as much as I love the breed, I hope the girl doesn't take.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shrap said:


> Obviously, but where is it indicated that the bitch in question has an unsound temperament? Kalindra replied as if the person was breeding from a nervous, unhealthy wreck just because it has been shown with success. Even though her own dogs are show line and her dogs make absolutely no contribution to the gene pool.
> 
> I just thought she had a cheek to start on something completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, being the OP breeding from a girl that's too old to be done relatively safely.
> 
> The merits of Schutzhund isn't really a topic for here, but I think the fact that "any dog can grab a sleeve" is a poor excuse for ignoring the fact that breeding dogs should be proven in their ability.


Thanks for explaining. Its been a long day! To be honest I didnt read Kalindras posts the same as you. I felt she was just saying that temperament is more important than this fixation the OP appears to have with the bitch's fabulous (apparently) breeding.

With regards K breeding pets, I dont see that a problem so long as it is done ethically. Much rather a caring ethical hobby breeder than a show breeder that cant see the health risks under her nose because of the 'beautiful' puppies the 6 year old bitch will produce when put to an unproven male.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

chichi said:


> Thanks for explaining. Its been a long day! To be honest I didnt read Kalindras posts the same as you. I felt she was just saying that temperament is more important than this fixation the OP appears to have with the bitch's fabulous (apparently) breeding.
> 
> With regards K breeding pets, I dont see that a problem so long as it is done ethically. Much rather a caring ethical hobby breeder than a show breeder that cant see the health risks under her nose because of the 'beautiful' puppies the 6 year old bitch will produce when put to an unproven male.


IMO, no such thing as an ethical pet breeder.

One thing can be better than another, but is it desirable at all?
For example someone who fully hip and elbow x rays their dogs before breeding compared to someone who doesn't. But if that person isn't involved in the breed how will they have any chance of knowing who is producing health issues like EPI and epilepsy? 
To really know what you're doing you should be fully immersed in the breed with all its issues.
Yes there are bad show breeders, but that doesn't mean someone who cares about their own specific dogs isn't doing damage to the breed as a whole.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

chichi said:


> Thanks for explaining. Its been a long day! To be honest I didnt read Kalindras posts the same as you. I felt she was just saying that temperament is more important than this fixation the OP appears to have with the bitch's fabulous (apparently) breeding.
> 
> With regards K breeding pets, I dont see that a problem so long as it is done ethically. Much rather a caring ethical hobby breeder than a show breeder that cant see the health risks under her nose because of the 'beautiful' puppies the 6 year old bitch will produce when put to an unproven male.


That is how I read it as well. The OP started the thread with the words "I am a responsible breeder," so obviously had some qualms about the reception he would get. I like to go for a champion line puppy with newfies because of their delicate bones and their size, even though they are purely pets, but what they have won is irrelevant. Health tests and temperament are far more important as well as no risk to the dam.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> That is how I read it as well. The OP started the thread with the words "I am a responsible breeder," so obviously had some qualms about the reception he would get. I like to go for a champion line puppy with newfies because of their delicate bones and their size, even though they are purely pets, but what they have won is irrelevant. Health tests and temperament are far more important as well as no risk to the dam.


Where is temperament talked about though? Really? You can't have an ethical litter without all of them.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shrap said:


> IMO, no such thing as an ethical pet breeder.
> 
> One thing can be better than another, but is it desirable at all?
> For example someone who fully hip and elbow x rays their dogs before breeding compared to someone who doesn't. But if that person isn't involved in the breed how will they have any chance of knowing who is producing health issues like EPI and epilepsy?
> ...


Well your opinion differs from mine and thats fine. You dont have to be walking round the show ring to know whats going on in your breed.

Anyway this is a whole other topic and not really relevant to a breeder breeding a bitch at 6 years old because she is related to goodness knows who. Breeding a bitch for the first time at 6, whether you are a pet breeder or a show breeder is way to risky in my mind.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

chichi said:


> Well your opinion differs from mine and thats fine. You dont have to be walking round the show ring to know whats going on in your breed.
> 
> Anyway this is a whole other topic and not really relevant to a breeder breeding a bitch at 6 years old because she is related to goodness knows who. Breeding a bitch for the first time at 6, whether you are a pet breeder or a show breeder is way to risky in my mind.


I agree about the bitch being too old. but unfortunately I DO mind when pet people are breeding epileptics and think they're doing it better because they don't show.


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## kalindra (Jun 23, 2012)

Shrap said:


> Obviously, but where is it indicated that the bitch in question has an unsound temperament? Kalindra replied as if the person was breeding from a nervous, unhealthy wreck just because it has been shown with success. Even though her own dogs are show line and her dogs make absolutely no contribution to the gene pool.
> 
> I just thought she had a cheek to start on something completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, being the OP breeding from a girl that's too old to be done relatively safely.
> 
> The merits of Schutzhund isn't really a topic for here, but I think the fact that "any dog can grab a sleeve" is a poor excuse for ignoring the fact that breeding dogs should be proven in their ability.


I really do not know where you got that from! I was, in no way, implying that the bitch had a bad temperament. Who am I to know? There was no mention of it in the OP. I said that a dog being a champion does not have anything to do with it's health or temperament.
It doesn't matter if my dogs are show line or otherwise, have you even looked at all of our dog's pedigrees? What is wrong with people having dogs as pets? How do you think they got domesticated in the first place?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

To the op, it does sound like your girl isn't quite ready yet. Maybe in a day or two your boy will be more interested, he'll know if she smells right and will stand for him. It sounds like at the moment he is just 'testing the water' so to speak.
If he is inexperienced he may not enter even if she does stand, in which case you'll have to give him a helping hand. I knew someone with a top quality Mal who couldn't quite manage it and had to be helped in the same way and a good litter of seven pups followed.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shrap said:


> I agree about the bitch being too old. but unfortunately I DO mind when pet people are breeding epileptics and think they're doing it better because they don't show.


Knowingly breeding pups where there is known epilepsy is totally unacceptable whether pet or show breeder. I know for a fact you arent digging at me but guessing theres a dig at someone on here in that comment huh


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

chichi said:


> Knowingly breeding pups where there is known epilepsy is totally unacceptable whether pet or show breeder. I know for a fact you arent digging at me but guessing theres a dig at someone on here in that comment huh


I mean people messing with pedigrees without knowing what they're looking for. Not knowingly breeding 2 fitters. Linebreeding on epileptic producers is unfortunately common.

And the problem with people having pets is when they think they can change a breed to suit themselves. GSDs were created for work!


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Would just like to clarify that I'm not implying Kalindra has produced epilepsy.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shrap said:


> I mean people messing with pedigrees without knowing what they're looking for. Not knowingly breeding 2 fitters. Linebreeding on epileptic producers is unfortunately common.
> 
> And the problem with people having pets is when they think they can change a breed to suit themselves. GSDs were created for work!


GSDs were created for work but doesnt mean that sensible breeding cannot create wonderful pets. I have a family member whose GSD lived to a ripe old age and was just a soppy BIG ball of fluff:biggrin: However she was trained and walked loads so maybe they can be pets if trained and exercised correctly with the right breeding behind them.

You obviously are passionate about the breed (I feel the same about the "teacup"breeders in my breed) so I understand your frustration with some breeders but just because pet breeders dont show dont assume they dont study pedigrees and research their breed and all that goes with it (health issues etc)


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Out of interest what group are GSD's actually in as they're not in the 'working group' of the BRS - is it utility?


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Nope, not utility, not sure to be honest


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2012)

pearltheplank said:


> Nope, not utility, not sure to be honest


pastoral group.
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=5106


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Out of interest what group are GSD's actually in as they're not in the 'working group' of the BRS - is it utility?

Their name kinda gives it away don't ya think?

German Shepherd

Doh!


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

OP do the two dogs live together,,,, I remember my father saying "familiarity breeds contempt, not good puppies". Meaning that dogs that lived together were not always interested in each other... But that was when I was a kid and I have no experience at all.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> OP do the two dogs live together,,,, I remember my father saying "familiarity breeds contempt, not good puppies". Meaning that dogs that lived together were not always interested in each other... But that was when I was a kid and I have no experience at all.


Can you please tell that to my Dexx; he didn't seem to get the memo!! He's neutered, has been since I got him, but he can still manage to achieve a flippin tie


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> Can you please tell that to my Dexx; he didn't seem to get the memo!! He's neutered, has been since I got him, but he can still manage to achieve a flippin tie


Yes my boy missed that Memo too. He hasnt been neutered but keeping him from any bitches in season here is a major mission. Familiarity is good for him. So long as they are ready for mating....... He is good to go.........


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Out of interest what group are GSD's actually in as they're not in the 'working group' of the BRS - is it utility?


They are in the Pastoral group



chichi said:


> Yes my boy missed that Memo too. He hasnt been neutered but keeping him from any bitches in season here is a major mission. Familiarity is good for him. So long as they are ready for mating....... He is good to go.........


Not much "familiarity" here either - if I hadn't been on the ball the other day my eldest boy would have been "right in there" faster than a speeding bullet !!!

Both my boys are very headstrong when the girls are ready for mating (apart from the dog and bitch I DID want to bring together )


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