# new kitten help



## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

mum has had 2 kittens since 10.20 they are very tiny but moving and looking to feed but mum doesn't seem to have milk when do i start worrying about feeding them myself


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi Vanessa! I'm sure the breeders will be on soon with some help. What an exciting (and worrying) time. Hope Mum and kitties are ok x


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

does she have anymore kittens inside her? has she fed them yet? id pop her to the vet for a shot of oxytocin it helps milk come out if it isnt, sometimes it takes a while but i couldnt leave it long as kits go downhill so quick, wat kitten replacement do you have?


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi 
i just kept putting them on her and now they are sucking like mad seem very healthy but too small 
i think she still has more but is not pushing just seems to be chilling out 
i have lactol milk?


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## WindyCity (Dec 18, 2010)

vanessa.xx said:


> Hi
> i just kept putting them on her and now they are sucking like mad seem very healthy but too small
> i think she still has more but is not pushing just seems to be chilling out
> i have lactol milk?


How do you know she has no milk?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

vanessa.xx said:


> Hi
> i just kept putting them on her and now they are sucking like mad seem very healthy but too small
> i think she still has more but is not pushing just seems to be chilling out
> i have lactol milk?


what breed is she?

mums most of the time dont like kittens suckling until all the kittens are born so they keep them to one side while washing them, how much do they weigh?

just looked up the milk not used it myself, always use cimi-cat, was recommended to me and always had good results, but im sure its fine!! 

its really hard to advise for things like this over the internet, I would call your vet, if I were there it would be alot easier!!!


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi
wow this is stressfull no 3 just born 
sorry i was panicking they are all feeding well now i just think the milk hadn't time to come through yet but seems fine now 
she still has more to be born yet 
thanks for being there everyone i'm stressed big time lol but mum is super calm and letting me help her she is bengal


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

also is it better to weigh them after they have fed or before?


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## WindyCity (Dec 18, 2010)

Leave them be just now until the milk is coming in and weigh them a while.

Hope everything turns out okay, yes it can be very stressful!!!


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Sounds like you're doing well :thumbsup: keep posting x


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

vanessa.xx said:


> Hi
> wow this is stressfull no 3 just born
> sorry i was panicking they are all feeding well now i just think the milk hadn't time to come through yet but seems fine now
> she still has more to be born yet
> thanks for being there everyone i'm stressed big time lol but mum is super calm and letting me help her she is bengal


do you have any pics?? who was she mated to?? I breed bengals aswell  they are VERY hard to breed, very very very hard!!!

id leave them for now, give mum a few hours with them to bond sit with her, my bum was killinmg me on my last litter (now 8 days old!  ) 14hours...yes 14hours on a hard floor, my poor bumbum lol 

its is highly stressful, try to be stressed in quiet though as mum will sense it!! very hard to do lol!!


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

...and get the camera  !


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

Ok now i'm major worried just weighed them and they are beyond tiny 60g and 70g and 70g they are full term and apart from being tiny look very healthy crawling sucking etc i am willing to do everything it takes to help them do you think they will survive? :crying:
looks like she has more to come but is sleeping while they are feeding at the moment


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

vanessa.xx said:


> Ok now i'm major worried just weighed them and they are beyond tiny 60g and 70g and 70g they are full term and apart from being tiny look very healthy crawling sucking etc i am willing to do everything it takes to help them do you think they will survive? :crying:
> looks like she has more to come but is sleeping while they are feeding at the moment


oh dear that is Very small, all you can do is keep a eye on them and make sure they are feeding 
has she only had the 3? that is Very small for such a small litter to, are you sure they are full term?


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## WindyCity (Dec 18, 2010)

vanessa.xx said:


> Ok now i'm major worried just weighed them and they are beyond tiny 60g and 70g and 70g they are full term and apart from being tiny look very healthy crawling sucking etc i am willing to do everything it takes to help them do you think they will survive? :crying:
> looks like she has more to come but is sleeping while they are feeding at the moment


Yes they are small but if they seem healthy that's not necessarily a bad thing. I have had a few at 80g


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

just had number 4 at 85g  so thats a bit better the kittens are lovely but don't think i've ever been so stressed in my life  still more to come i just felt a kick seems to be about 1 and half hours between them 
yeah definatley full term just on the earlier of my dates but they are holding up their heads crawling and fighting over nipples


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Oooh how exciting, bless them, little tiny babies. When all's done we must have photos!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

about the lactol milk.... it's..... ok.... ok for just the odd feed every now and then.... but if you have to top the kittens up on a regular basis or take over completely from mum please buy a vet quality kitten milk... something like KMR or Royal Canin or any of the decent brands vets have in stock. lactol really is just pet shop quality. OK as a last resort when you have nothing else, but it's nto really a good milk. Though.... the lactol bottles and teats are very good, while the Royal Canin ones are terrible. 

Hope all goes well with the kittens, there are a some worrisome weights amongst them so be on your toes. All the best.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

How are the littluns and Mum?? x


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## Donskie (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi, hope all is well with mum and kittens this morning


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi 
sorry i've been absent but been sooo tired i'm sleeping on the sofa and waking every couple of hours to check them 
They are all feeding really well and the tiny one is really scrappy and fights for a nipple they have put on weight they are now 87g, 67g, 81g and 103g 
they seem to be thriving but desperatley small i'm just praying they all pull through


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Hun, give your vet a call. Is the one weighing 67g the one that was 60g at birth? Something isn't right. 7g gain in 2-3 days is poor.  Please don't delay.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Just to add, they need to be checked over by a vet, mum and babies. There may be something wrong. Please don't try and feed them extra until you've had some veterinary advice in person.

If the vet does advise you to supplement the feeding, please ask them to show you how. You can get it wrong sooo easily.

EDIT: it would be better all round if you can get the vet to come out to you. Save them the stress of going to the vets.


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## jameserickson80 (Jan 24, 2011)

WindyCity said:


> Leave them be just now until the milk is coming in and weigh them a while.
> 
> Hope everything turns out okay, yes it can be very stressful!!!


I think you are right. Sometimes milk isn't coming and sometimes its overflowing.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

not a big gain, how is mum does she had milk coming out of all of her nipples? they could be blocked 

Id call the vet, I wouldnt leave it any long esp a 7gram gain in 3 days 

has the stud owner offered any advice? or your girls breeder?


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

hi
sorry my original post the weights weren't right they were actually worse and they have just been weighed again i'm trying to do it 3 times a day although they seem to put the most on through the night
no 1 was 68g now 91g
no 2 was 55g :scared: now 69g
no 3 was 69g now 89g
no 4 was 85g now 105g 
i hadn't taken them to the vet as i thought it would be more harmful because of the stress and temp change and i didn't realise they would come out to you
but apart from the weights they seem perfectly well healthy and feeding very well 
I am keeping a really close eye on them and they are steadily putting on a little weight what is an average daily weight gain for new kittens?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Ideally 10g at the minimum, but 15g+ would be brilliant.

It's been 2 full days so you have gains of:

23g
14g
20g
20g

I'd still be concerned about kitten number 2 hun. Call you vet and ask if someone would mind popping out to check them all over on their way home tonight or something. It won't hurt to be cautious.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Just to add again. While the weights aren't brilliant, they aren't deadly ... I've heard of worse. But kitten number 2 could well be showing early signs of a problem. 

It could also be simply a case of making sure kitten 2 is moved to the very hind nipples as much as possible, as that's where all the good milk is. Just until he/she catches up, that's what I ended up doing with Tinks.

Again though caution won't hurt, and it will help put your mind at rest. Not to mention it won't hurt for someone to check they are all OK otherwise.


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## vanessa.xx (Dec 28, 2010)

thanks i tried the vets but no answer, think i will wait till morning unless there is a change in which i will phone the emergency vet
I always make sure i put the tiny one on a nipple first  and near the hind and if any of the others try to nudge it off it really puts up a fight kicking out with its legs but as i am permantley stationed next to the box i make sure they all get on a nipple


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

vanessa.xx said:


> thanks i tried the vets but no answer, think i will wait till morning unless there is a change in which i will phone the emergency vet
> I always make sure i put the tiny one on a nipple first  and near the hind and if any of the others try to nudge it off it really puts up a fight kicking out with its legs but as i am permantley stationed next to the box i make sure they all get on a nipple


Oh right, well then I'm still concerned. If that's what you're doing and no2 has only gained 14g ... then like I say it could be an early sign of a problem. I'd keep ringing your vet hun, perhaps put them on ringback (press 5 when you get the engaged tone).


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

are you topping them up? with a good top up milk?

Ive asked a couple of times but is the breeder of your girl offering any advice? Or are they not full pedigree bengals? 

bengals are normally pretty good at putting on the weight, however quite alot of them dont make good mums


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

Just to add before the OP starts to panic, a kitten born at a smaller birth weight will naturally put on weight slower than a kitten at a bigger birthweight - it stands to reason the smaller kitten has a smaller stomach and therefore cannot take in as much milk.

I recently had a large breed kitten born at 66g, even though the others in the litter were 98 and 127 and at 8 weeks old, he is now thriving without any intervention from me (I am a registered breeder and all of my cats are registered active and all of my kittens are registered with GCCF :001_cool

I was told by a very experienced breeder that any weight gain is good and as long as there is weight going on and not coming off then there is no need to panic.

Should the kitten stop putting on weight or lose weight, become lethargic etc then I would be concerned and obviously call the vet.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> Just to add before the OP starts to panic, a kitten born at a smaller birth weight will naturally put on weight slower than a kitten at a bigger birthweight - it stands to reason the smaller kitten has a smaller stomach and therefore cannot take in as much milk.
> 
> I recently had a large breed kitten born at 66g, even though the others in the litter were 98 and 127 and at 8 weeks old, he is now thriving without any intervention from me (I am a registered breeder and all of my cats are registered active and all of my kittens are registered with GCCF :001_cool
> 
> ...


I appreciate you taking the time to post, but unfortunately a lot of it is not strictly true. I'd hate for anyone to read that and get complacent enough to decide not to bother consulting a vet.

There are some conditions and even illnesses that won't stop a kitten eating at all, but it might stop them from getting enough. Monitoring their weight is an excellent way of picking up problems in early stages. It's probably the most effective way.


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

I also appreciate your taking the time to post but I have been breeding for an incredibly long time and have never, ever lost a kitten that has put on weight.

I have very sadly had some that have been stillborn and had 1 or 2 that were too small to survive and never put on weight but I have had a few tiny ones that put on weight very slowly at first and then thrive.

My point to the OP is not to panic, the kitten is putting on weight and seems to be lively. If this should change then call the vet but there is nothing worse in my opinion than dragging newborn kittens and a stressed mum to the vet for no reason at all.

Sadly, if there is a problem with this kitten and it is failing to thrive and put on weight as it should, chances are there is nothing the vet can do anyway.

Every litter and every kitten is different and I think you will find that everything that I have posted is true and factual, as it has happened to me in the past.

1: Smaller kittens feed less and put on weight more slowly - the same as small human babies
2: Any weight gain is good - this indicates that the kitten is taking in milk, mum obviously has a milk supply and therefore the kitten is able to feed properly and absorb nutrients
3: Those were my only points and therefore nothing in my post is untrue, although I am sure you will correct me when you read my response.

Oh, and just to add, I did say if the kittens stops putting on weight or loses weight then consult the vet - I weigh twice a day for the first 2 weeks and then once a day until the kittens refuse to sit still on the scales.


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## WindyCity (Dec 18, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> I also appreciate your taking the time to post but I have been breeding for an incredibly long time and have never, ever lost a kitten that has put on weight.
> 
> I have very sadly had some that have been stillborn and had 1 or 2 that were too small to survive and never put on weight but I have had a few tiny ones that put on weight very slowly at first and then thrive.
> 
> ...


Fantastic advice, they sound like they are doing well.  Keep us updated.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I appreciate you taking the time to post, but unfortunately a lot of it is not strictly true. I'd hate for anyone to read that and get complacent enough to decide not to bother consulting a vet.


Well said Aurelia, forums are great for general chat and advice but shouldn't replace vet advice. Maybe I am naive, but don't people who breed cats usually have personal mentoring help from experienced breeders they know? Often breeder who sold them their queen :confused1:


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

Seriously, I gave advice from my own personal experience and also said when I felt the situation needed vet advice....in both of my posts.

And unfortunately, not everyone has a mentor when they breed as there are far too many breeders who just sell their kittens on and don't want to hear anything else about it. I mentor everyone that I sell to, in fact I wouldn't sell to them if they didn't want my advice.

It is up to the OP to decide whether she feels her kittens are thriving or not and whether she wants to drag them out to the vet - that it why the forum is here....to give advice from personal experience and not to dictate what people should or shouldn't do.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

if these were my kittens i would have been bottle feeding the too small ones yesterday and i would get the vet out today. Theres no point just hoping that nothings wrong, only a vet can say that for sure.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> I also appreciate your taking the time to post but I have been breeding for an incredibly long time and have never, ever lost a kitten that has put on weight.
> 
> I have very sadly had some that have been stillborn and had 1 or 2 that were too small to survive and never put on weight but I have had a few tiny ones that put on weight very slowly at first and then thrive.
> 
> ...


Hun, to be fair ... Just because you've been lucky enough not to have any problems going by your own experience, it doesn't make what you say to be fact for all kittens.

There are conditions, like I said that mean a kitten will put on weight but not enough. Such as hair lip, a mild case where some milk is getting in, but not enough. Also infections, they can still put on weight in the early stages of infection, but eventually they will stop gaining and start loosing. To notice a small weight gain and act quickly (seeking vet advice) means you are giving them the very best chance you can. Instead of waiting until they actually start losing weight.

I did also put that it would be better all round if the vet came out, instead of stressing them all out with a vet visit.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

catsmum said:


> if these were my kittens i would have been bottle feeding the too small ones yesterday and i would get the vet out today. Theres no point just hoping that nothings wrong, only a vet can say that for sure.


I would only advise someone with bottle feeding experience to do that hun, else it could do more harm than good. Totally agree with the second part though


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Hun, to be fair ... Just because you've been lucky enough not to have any problems going by your own experience, it doesn't make what you say to be fact for all kittens.
> 
> There are conditions, like I said that mean a kitten will put on weight but not enough. Such as hair lip, a mild case where some milk is getting in, but not enough. Also infections, they can still put on weight in the early stages of infection, but eventually they will stop gaining and start loosing. To notice a small weight gain and act quickly (seeking vet advice) means you are giving them the very best chance you can. Instead of waiting until they actually start losing weight.
> 
> I did also put that it would be better all round if the vet came out, instead of stressing them all out with a vet visit.


I'm not saying I haven't had any problems - in my years of breeding, I have had my fair share. What I am saying though is that a small weight gain in a small kitten is normal. If the kitten was a good size and had only put on 7g in 3 days, then I would be concerned but weight gain tends to be directly proportioned to the size of the newborn.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

i agree not to bottle feed if you dont know what your doing

i dont agree that gain is directly proportioned to the size of the newborn

my last small newborn was 67 and gained 17 21 14 20 22 24 16 in his first week that was more gain than the two bigger ones but i did top him up 4 times a day. Small kittens need not stay small if we do our part in it. If the person doesnt know how to bottle feed a newborn then she should have the vet come out or she should go to the vet as that is less dangerous than not growing enough.And if she doesnt know how to bottle feed then I think that means she doesnt have the experience needed to see if anything else is wrong.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

catsmum said:


> i agree not to bottle feed if you dont know what your doing
> 
> i dont agree that gain is directly proportioned to the size of the newborn
> 
> my last small newborn was 67 and gained 17 21 14 20 22 24 16 in his first week that was more gain than the two bigger ones but i did top him up 4 times a day. Small kittens need not stay small if we do our part in it. If the person doesnt know how to bottle feed a newborn then she should have the vet come out or she should go to the vet as that is less dangerous than not growing enough.And if she doesnt know how to bottle feed then I think that means she doesnt have the experience needed to see if anything else is wrong.


Exactly. This is something we also need to remember. I think I'm remembering correctly when I say that Vanessa is a first time breeder? So recognising problems is not something she's used to. So being cautious in this case is the most important thing IMO.

Caution won't hurt, but complacency might.


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi how are mum and kittens today? How are their weights? Did you manage to get the vet to you, or get to them?

fingers crossed


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> i agree not to bottle feed if you dont know what your doing
> 
> i dont agree that gain is directly proportioned to the size of the newborn
> 
> my last small newborn was 67 and gained 17 21 14 20 22 24 16 in his first week that was more gain than the two bigger ones but i did top him up 4 times a day. Small kittens need not stay small if we do our part in it. If the person doesnt know how to bottle feed a newborn then she should have the vet come out or she should go to the vet as that is less dangerous than not growing enough.And if she doesnt know how to bottle feed then I think that means she doesnt have the experience needed to see if anything else is wrong.


I never intervene with newborns unless mum should abandon them, in which case I would step in although this has never happened to me.

If mum has milk then I simply go to mum and kittens at least every hour and make sure that any small ones are latched on and feeding and I weigh them before and after each feed to ensure that they are taking it all in.

I believe that letting them get the milk from mum builds up their suckle reflex and gives them everything they need, particularly as the first couple of days is colustrum. Bottle feeding has dangers all by itself and even the most experienced breeders can cause a kitten to aspirate milk when bottle feeding.

We are all entitled to our own opinions and this is what has worked for me and indeed my mentors over the last few years - I am sure everyone has their own opinion on the matter too.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Cooniemum said:


> I never intervene with newborns unless mum should abandon them, in which case I would step in although this has never happened to me.
> 
> *If mum has milk then I simply go to mum and kittens at least every hour* and make sure that any small ones are latched on and feeding and I weigh them before and after each feed to ensure that they are taking it all in.
> 
> ...


just wondered where mum/kittens are? As mine are in the room with me 24/7, also sleep next to them, I know not everyone can do that, but surely mum needs to know you are in the room?


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

My mums are all very experienced anyway but they are in my bedroom and if the kittens need me then I go to them every hour, day and night to latch on and then leave mum in peace - surely no-one stays by their side 24 hours a day if they don't need to? I check on them regularly enough to know they are doing OK and mum is able to come and go as she pleases so if she wants to come and see me then she can. 

I do have children and a house to run as well as my breeding hobby.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> My mums are all very experienced anyway but they are in my bedroom and if the kittens need me then I go to them every hour, day and night to latch on and then leave mum in peace - surely no-one stays by their side 24 hours a day if they don't need to? I check on them regularly enough to know they are doing OK and mum is able to come and go as she pleases so if she wants to come and see me then she can.
> 
> I do have children and a house to run as well as my breeding hobby.


I, like TB spent 24/7 (also slept in the same room) with my girl and her babies, and would choose to do this every time. Obviously that is personal choice, and if you do have a house to run and children to look after it's not possible for you.


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## Cooniemum (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I, like TB spent 24/7 (also slept in the same room) with my girl and her babies, and would choose to do this every time. Obviously that is personal choice, and if you do have a house to run and children to look after it's not possible for you.


Regardless of whether it is possible or not, I wouldn't do it. Mums need their peace and quiet to bond with their babies....yes I will help babies to latch on if they need it and I keep a kitten diary so when I weigh the babies, I also take photos. However, if the mum is that needy that she can't cope with the babies without me then that would be her last litter. Cats, on the whole, make fantastic mums and I never do more than check and weigh and clean the area for the first couple of weeks - I have know mums to abandon babies before when their owners have become too involved.

Again, personal choice but unnecessary, I feel, and that doesn't make me a less dedicated breeder because of it.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Cooniemum said:


> I never intervene with newborns unless mum should abandon them, in which case I would step in although this has never happened to me.
> 
> If mum has milk then I simply go to mum and kittens at least every hour and make sure that any small ones are latched on and feeding and I weigh them before and after each feed to ensure that they are taking it all in.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to touch on your last paragraph.

You're right you are entitled to your own opinion like we all are. But what we have to be careful of on a public forum like this ... is giving advice to someone who is a first time breeder without a mentor. Who will not know what she's doing/dealing with the same way those of us who have support or experience do.

Plus the same goes for anyone googling who might happen upon this thread.

If someone like me comes along and says they need to be seen by a vet as a matter of caution as it could be a sign of something going wrong ... the OP might think OK, I'll do that. But then if someone else comes along and says "I have years of experience raising litters, and there is no need for concern etc etc" (I hate it when people throw the experience card BTW. Experience doesn't always mean you (collective 'you') do things right) ... well the OP might then think 'Ah right, no need to worry then, I won't bother the vet'.

Trouble is they might then not bother to check the thread for a few days. In that time things might have gotten worse if there is a problem. We all know how delicate kittens are in the first few weeks. Caution is always going to be the best option when in doubt, or there is a hint of a problem. I'm sure none of us would choose to risk an animal suffering if we were given cautious advice. Well you would hope not in most cases anyway


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