# Calming down the giddiness?



## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

Background info:
_
Dog is approx 12 months old. Had for 7 months. Was a rescued stray. Had kennel cough when we got him, had surgery for bloat about 3 months ago but otherwise been healthy.

Best guess to breeds: dalmatian, whippet, labrador cross.

Activity: At least an hour and a half off lead walk with other dogs daily or 3 on lead walks daily. Charges full pelt with the other dogs and sleeps the rest of the day.

Food: orijen.
_

The reason I'm posting is because he's a very giddy dog. It's one of the things I love about him. His whole body wags when he's excited and he bounces and plays and loves everyone and every dog.

What I'd like to do though is contain it a little. For example, I'd like his recall to be better around other dogs so he doesn't run up and try to play with dogs on lead. At the moment I have to put him on a lead if I see a leashed dog approaching on our walks.

And if we meet a person that I stop to say hello to, he sees this as a 'Great Friend' and jumps up to say hello.

I have taught him not to jump up at me by ignoring him and taught him not to jump up at kids by keeping him on a lead around them until he was solid. The children's friends visit regularly and he is fab round them.

But other people sometimes fuss him when he's jumping so he gets rewarded for it enough times for him to keep doing it. Even if he's not jumping up, he's doing his whole body wag round their ankles, leaving a trail of hair on them if I don't contain him.

So, I guess maybe it's more about securing the recall? He's solid in most situations but when we're out in the woods/field/park/wherever he's allowed to be off lead he's great unless he is greeting a new dog/person.

Any ideas how to make this situation less of an issue?

Thanks


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

If you and the dog continue to see other dogs as the source of the greatest pleasure in life, he will continue to gravitate towards them rather than interact with you.

Other people (and dogs) may not welcome his attentions (just as you and your dog may not welcome the attentions of other dogs) thus to keep both him and others safe, it is vital that you train your dog that access to other dogs is available only by your express permission.

As for jumping up at others because they want to fuss him, that is easily solved by not allowing it, that is what leads are for.

Perhaps teaching him some self control would be useful plus a consistent reliable recall.

Many of us have excitable/high drive dogs, but also have good control.

Have a look here

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/hey.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks. That's helpful.

Just to clarify:

I want to remove the lead, rather than keep using it to restrain him. The dog needs a serious amount of off lead running to stay healthy and happy. I want to get past the stage of having to put him on the lead every time I see someone approaching.

My dog likes playing with other dogs but I wouldn't say they were his (or my) greatest source of pleasure.

We do a lot of attention work and he is very good at that and has great recall MOST of the time. I'd like to proof it in ALL situations but I don't know how to build it up around other dogs because either they're there or they're not so I don't know how to build it up gradually.

He is not interested in toys. He is clicker trained and he gets venison heart or tongue only on recall. I am training him to fetch a ball at the moment. We are at the stage where he'll bring it back in the house but is not interested outside. We've been doing it for about 10 days.

Edit - re self control - I'll try the game in the link, thank you. We do pretty much that at home already though and he's pretty chilled. He's also excellent at the 'it's yer choice' game. Building up the distractions is harder though as he's not distracted by the kids bouncing round him or traffic going past or people walking past or even dogs walking past if we're on a leash walk. 

It's the charging round off lead with other dogs part that he gets distracted by and this is the part I want to proof him in but there's no low arousal point, even when I put him on the lead when people are approaching. I've been ending the walk with a loose leash with distractions walk at the end and he can manage this if the other dogs are a distance away.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I found that classes worked. Louie had to focus on me and interact with only me whilst there were people and other dogs around. However transferring that from class to the outdoors proved a little difficult but I didn't put the correct amount of effort into it as I don't really walk where I see a lot of people


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks. I didn't think of trying classes again!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

doggiepal said:


> Thanks. I didn't think of trying classes again!


Thats the thing we see at class, a lot of people just do a few courses then stop.. then wonder why their dog isn't doing as great.


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

The problem with class was that he was in such a state of high arousal ALL the time during the class that I was able to do very little with him while we were there, though I could work on what we learnt the rest of the time. It did seem like it was cruel to put him in that situation where he was over stimulated from the off and expect him to succeed. 

However, he was newly rescued then and I think he'd be able to focus on me more during the lessons now.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

A good class and a good trainer will demonstrate how to use the presence of other dogs as a signal to your dog that that is the time you two have the best experiences together.

So the dog views other dogs NOT as the canine equivalent of Disneyland and you as merely a means of transportation to it whils being a mobile food dispenser, but the time to turn to YOU so you can do stuff that happens only then.


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

In the class we went to the dogs weren't allowed any contact at all, though they had to sit quite close together. They weren't allowed to sniff to say hello.

This was very frustrating for him. Is this usual? The stimulation was too high.

On lead in the street there's no problem - quick sniff, polite wag and off we go, unless the owner doesn't appear to want to let them sniff and I just walk wide with him. But in class I think there's still too much stimulation for him.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

doggiepal said:


> In the class we went to the dogs weren't allowed any contact at all, though they had to sit quite close together. They weren't allowed to sniff to say hello.
> 
> This was very frustrating for him. Is this usual? The stimulation was too high.
> 
> On lead in the street there's no problem - quick sniff, polite wag and off we go, unless the owner doesn't appear to want to let them sniff and I just walk wide with him. But in class I think there's still too much stimulation for him.


Most classes are like this, thats why I like the class I go to. The dogs have a paddock - mainly for toileting before and after class, but it's also great for Lou as he can get all his hello's out of the way before class - I've found it helps him focus on me, however I am limiting his time more now as I don't really want to have to let him get things out of his system before he starts listening, I want him to listen all the time.

Perhaps join a smaller group? Or ask to work away from everyone for a bit until you gain more focus..


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

That's exactly what I'm looking for - a way of providing him with an opportunity for success by allowing him to settle down before training then reduce the time he needs to settle down. At the moment he'd probably need to be quite far away from the other dog to be calm about not getting to say hello for all that time. He is fine just walking past on a lead but not being so close for so long.


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## myboys (Apr 29, 2012)

We had great difficulty in getting our pointer under control around people - other dogs were not such a problem. I'm afraid I just insisted that my friends turn their back on him when they arrived at the house and not acknowledge him until he settled.


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## Fam4Sam (May 14, 2012)

Hi I am after some help with my dog......he is 9 month old and is really friendly BUT he cannot seem to be taken off his lead he runs off most of the time very rarely comes back to me and when there is another dog about forget it! He has no road sense at all and just runs right out into it.

His background is we rescued him from a private home but with his behaviour we think he was beaten and live in a small cage (too small for him) and only went in a yard which was not very big....dont think he has any social skills when it comes tpo other dogs and that just leads to owners being very upset. I want him to be able to be taken off the lead as we live in a semi rural area and would be such a shame for him not to be able to enjoy except for on a lead. Please can anyone help with some simple training techniques that i can put into practise straight away. Thanks Sarah


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*Why can't I get a reliable recall?*

'Come' is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into 
adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 - 10 months, depending on the individual, "Velcro" dog will morph into "Bog off" dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

*How and when do I start with a puppy?*

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

•	Come from across the room. 
•	Come from out of sight 
•	Come no matter who calls
•	Come even if you are busy doing something else
•	Come even if you are asleep. 
•	Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
•	Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1.	Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2.	Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

•	Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
•	Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
•	If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
•	Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
•	Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the "value" of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog's life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

*What about an older or rescue dog?*

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day's food ration up into small bags (between10 - 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying "too bad" and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

*How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?*

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your "helper" simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it's getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog's name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the 
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

doggiepal said:


> Any ideas how to make this situation less of an issue?
> 
> Thanks


Training, patience, and time.

Remember he is still a youngster.


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

Thank you. I'm really glad you said that. He's doing really well and if this is the only significant issue then I think he's doing us proud!


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