# Shubunkin lost colour



## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I have had Pisces my shubunkin for 6 years but he was not small when I got him.
Over the past several months he has lost most of his colour.
He is now the pale with tiny blue/ash hue on his body and a yellow head and fins but his eyes are still red and black.
I know fish lose their colour due to age but he wasnt yellow before, he just became "white'' then yellow.

Is that normal?, I have never had a shubunkin before. 
Also I have noticed a lot of veins in his fins but the pond has never had ammonia problems and the pH is 7.5.
I am using up feed that supposedly enhances colour could it be the food?
Also what are the signs of an aging goldfish and to older fish need different feed?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

It could be natural colour changing, and nothing to worry about. I know you said he wasn't small when you got him, but these fish can and should live for up to 15+ years, so he might not be that old.

I'm not sure what you mean by the veins in the fins? Do you mean they're blood streaked?

Any chance of a pic?
I know you said you've never had a problem with ammonia, but do you have any readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I'll get some pictures of him tomorrow and do a water quality test too.
Thank you for your response.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
pH: 7.8

My kit does not test nitrate


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I have taken pictures they are just taking a while to send to my laptop.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Alvina said:


> Ammonia: 0
> Nitrite: 0
> pH: 7.8
> 
> My kit does not test nitrate


Which test kit are you using?


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

NTlabs Pond Water Mini Test.
I got it from the World of Water.
I want to get the NT Labs NT280 Multiple Analysis Kit for Ponds but its not in the local pet stores and I do not think I am allowed to travel to the World of Water at this time.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I had to put him in one of them "horse feed" buckets
Here are the photos:
He's not much of a looker...


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Yeah, it does look like his fin rays have blood in them but otherwise he looks OK to me. What other fish are in there with him?

Ah, I see which kit you have now. The nitrate kit costs just £10 more on eBay;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NT-LABS-...hash=item5d55cce351:m:mkNILMSCATMw02YyuUc8RWA

Have you checked your water company's website? That might have give you a baseline, although obviously it won't give you an exact reading of your pond.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

There is a comet (Mars) slightly chunkier than him but has short fins and a roughly 3.5 inch sarasa comet.
There is also a frog that visits.
I think Mars is also male and they would bump and chase each other in the summer.
I live in a hard water area as I had to de-scale my rodents glass water bottle sometimes.

Thank you for finding the nitrate test.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

Looked at water hardiness records in a neighboring town and I'm pretty sure my tap water is halfway between hard to aggresively hard water. 

Are is there any thing that can be put in to the pond to soften the water?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Anything that reduces hardness will likely affect pH, and pH is OK. TBH, I doubt the hardness is an issue. Goldie's are hardwater fish.

Could you keep him in the feed bucket? Or if not, have you got another food-grade container you could keep him in temporarily? If so, then perhaps treat the fish with salt, at a rate of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I have some tonic pond salt and I think I still have a 85 litre tub I used to keep frog spawn in. But I do not have another pump and air stones. 
I have 2 air stones in my 470L pond but a couple days ago one stopped working, one rubber ring seal in the pump has got lose and the pump company in obviously temporarily closed. Perfect timing. 


If I can't use the other tub, would it be okay if I put the salt in the main pond. I've got plants in the pond, should I remove them or would they be fine? 

The nitrate kit is on its way


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Alvina said:


> I have some tonic pond salt and I think I still have a 85 litre tub I used to keep frog spawn in. But I do not have another pump and air stones.
> I have 2 air stones in my 470L pond but a couple days ago one stopped working, one rubber ring seal in the pump has got lose and the pump company in obviously temporarily closed. Perfect timing.
> 
> If I can't use the other tub, would it be okay if I put the salt in the main pond. I've got plants in the pond, should I remove them or would they be fine?
> ...


Just seen this.

You could put the salt in the pond, but the only way to remove it is by water changes.

If you can't get another air pump, you could treat him in a salt dip. Add 1 to 4 teaspoons per litre and leave him in there for between 5 and 30mins, then return him to the pond.

You may have to repeat over several days.

If he shows any signs of stress, return him to the pond sooner.

https://www.algone.com/aquarium-fish-dips-and-baths
https://www.thesprucepets.com/using-salt-in-a-freshwater-aquarium-1378797


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

Okay thank you


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I found an air pump with an air stone on Amazon for £10, so i'll do the hospital tub method, when is arrives.

Thank you for the advice, the fish keeping books I have are pretty outdated.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Alvina said:


> I found an air pump with an air stone on Amazon for £10, so i'll do the hospital tub method, when is arrives.
> 
> Thank you for the advice, the fish keeping books I have are pretty outdated.


You're welcome. Good luck. . Keep me updated.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

The nitrate test arrived
It's 2.5
I have four medium to large pond plants and I scrub the sides on the pond a few times a month to keep the algae managable.
I poop scoop twice a day.
I haven't put any plant food in the pond and right now I feed the fish 2-3 times a day.

Could you recommend what I could do or use to reduce the nitrate?

I put the pump in my basket but forgot to actually purchase it so it will arrive next week. Oops.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

Alvina said:


> The nitrate test arrived
> It's 2.5
> I have four medium to large pond plants and I scrub the sides on the pond a few times a month to keep the algae managable.
> I poop scoop twice a day.
> ...


Plants are a good way to remove nitrate naturally, but for a faster way to remove it then here are some that will help.
Tetra Nitrate minues
Seachem De Nitrate Remover
Both can be found on Amazon, also seachem prime helps to detoxify nitrates. If you don't want to buy anything then water changes ( but you should be doing water changes regurally as part of overall maintenance) are also a way to help lower the NITRATE levels. But just note that if you use tap water then it may already have a small amount of NITRATE in it, but it will still lower it to the levels that are in the tap water (that's if the tap water has any nitrate in it). Also RO (Reverse Osmosis) water will be good to use but you will need to add nutriance back and maybe PH, as RO systems strip the water of mist if not all the nutriance and do effect the water chemistry.

Good luck I am sure @LinznMilly Will know more. Hopefully you can solve your issue. I don't own a pond but from what I read they are simular to aquariums, but bigger.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Alvina said:


> The nitrate test arrived
> It's 2.5
> I have four medium to large pond plants and I scrub the sides on the pond a few times a month to keep the algae managable.
> I poop scoop twice a day.
> ...


2.5ppm nitrate is actually really low. Surprisingly low in fact - especially in a goldfish pond. Did you carry out the instructions to the letter? Bottle 1 has to be shaken so hard your arms ache.

If the test result is accurate, you don't need to do anything to reduce it. Even in fish tanks, a lot of fishkeepers would kill for nitrate that low. 

How's the fish now?


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

LinznMilly said:


> 2.5ppm nitrate is actually really low. Surprisingly low in fact - especially in a goldfish pond. Did you carry out the instructions to the letter? Bottle 1 has to be shaken so hard your arms ache.
> 
> If the test result is accurate, you don't need to do anything to reduce it. Even in fish tanks, a lot of fishkeepers would kill for nitrate that low.
> 
> How's the fish now?


Sorry I did not read that part.:Hilarious silly me.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I shook the small bottle like a maraka for a minute.
I'll try it again.

I saw a couple fin rips and body scrapes on the fish. I think they have been chasing each other because its summer and have been pecking each others fins. To be safe I have been using Blagdon fish aid all in one treatment. I used the nitrate test before I put the treatment in.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

Alvina said:


> I shook the small bottle like a maraka for a minute.
> I'll try it again.
> 
> I saw a couple fin rips and body scrapes on the fish. I think they have been chasing each other because its summer and have been pecking each others fins. To be safe I have been using Blagdon fish aid all in one treatment. I used the nitrate test before I put the treatment in.


Is the 0.25ppm the latest result for your NITRATE test? Also it could be that your other fish is nipping. Do you have plants in the tank or good hidding spots to allow the fish to recover and be relatively safe?


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

I checked nitrate again and the result is the same 2.5.
They have a fish cave which is also a shelf for the plants. They do love to swim over the shelf and hide between the plant pots. I do usually have one of them sedimentary rocks with holes drilled out but I took it out because I didn't want them to scuff themselves on it. I also have an small potted oxygenater plant, they like to peck and swim between.

I have also bought a water hawthorn root, to provide natural shelter in the autumn to spring.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

Alvina said:


> I checked nitrate again and the result is the same 2.5.
> They have a fish cave which is also a shelf for the plants. They do love to swim over the shelf and hide between the plant pots. I do usually have one of them sedimentary rocks with holes drilled out but I took it out because I didn't want them to scuff themselves on it. I also have an small potted oxygenater plant, they like to peck and swim between.


Sounds nice. Hopefully they will stop soon, but best to keep an eye on it. I would recommend using Indian almond leaves to help with the healing process. It does sounds like a stress related issue but could also be a dominance thing. 
Hope you fix the issue soon. I am sure you will. Keep me posted though.


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

One thing I am worried about is I think my little sarasa comet is female because the body shape is noticeably different then the other two. I have seen both Pisces and Mars chasing it. Luckily she's smaller then them and can squeaze between the air pump pipes and get away from them. I am wondering whether I should adopt another female goldfish in the future.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

Alvina said:


> One thing I am worried about is I think my little sarasa comet is female because the body shape is noticeably different then the other two. I have seen both Pisces and Mars chasing it. Luckily she's smaller then them and can squeaze between the air pump pipes and get away from them. I am wondering whether I should adopt another female goldfish in the future.


You could do, but they are chasing the one already. I guess getting more of the sarasa comet would help to make them feel safer. Useful link: https://www.fishkeepingworld.com/comet-goldfish/


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## Alvina (Oct 8, 2017)

George Duke-Cohan said:


> You could do, but they are chasing the one already. I guess getting more of the sarasa comet would help to make them feel safer. Useful link: https://www.fishkeepingworld.com/comet-goldfish/


Thank you.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

Alvina said:


> Thank you.


No problem. If you have any other issues feel free to post them. We are happy to help


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Alvina said:


> One thing I am worried about is I think my little sarasa comet is female because the body shape is noticeably different then the other two. I have seen both Pisces and Mars chasing it. Luckily she's smaller then them and can squeaze between the air pump pipes and get away from them. I am wondering whether I should adopt another female goldfish in the future.


Getting more female comets would take the pressure off her, but I'd also recommend adding more decor and plants to break up the line of sight. If you have the space, go for 2 more females.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

George Duke-Cohan said:


> You could do, but they are chasing the one already. I guess getting more of the sarasa comet would help to make them feel safer. Useful link: https://www.fishkeepingworld.com/comet-goldfish/


That link isn't all that accurate, although it is spot on in terms of tank sizes. Goldfish do best in pH 7.2-7.6, and fancies cannot withstand the same temperatures as comets, to the point where sometimes, they actually do need a heater to stop the water becoming too cold.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

LinznMilly said:


> That link isn't all that accurate, although it is spot on in terms of tank sizes. Goldfish do best in pH 7.2-7.6, and fancies cannot withstand the same temperatures as comets, to the point where sometimes, they actually do need a heater to stop the water becoming too cold.


I see, that's why I posted it as a useful link, but there are so many sites out there that it is hard to find one that you can stick with. But thanks for letting me know.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> That link isn't all that accurate, although it is spot on in terms of tank sizes. Goldfish do best in pH 7.2-7.6, and fancies cannot withstand the same temperatures as comets, to the point where sometimes, they actually do need a heater to stop the water becoming too cold.


Yeah, there are a few things in that article that are a bit questionable! Nobody really needs a product called 'aquarium cleaner', Saki Hikari is far from the best food, goldfish do not 'require' cold water, and it's nonsense to suggest that warm water does 'lifelong damage to their nerves'.

@Alvina I'd just keep a close eye on the chasing, male goldfish can be such a pain and they can really stress and even damage the females. Hopefully she should be ok if she can get away from them. I ended up having to rehome one of my males when two of them ganged up on one female and wouldn't leave her alone.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

magpie said:


> Yeah, there are a few things in that article that are a bit questionable! Nobody really needs a product called 'aquarium cleaner', Saki Hikari is far from the best food, goldfish do not 'require' cold water, and it's nonsense to suggest that warm water does 'lifelong damage to their nerves'.
> 
> @Alvina I'd just keep a close eye on the chasing, male goldfish can be such a pain and they can really stress and even damage the females. Hopefully she should be ok if she can get away from them. I ended up having to rehome one of my males when two of them ganged up on one female and wouldn't leave her alone.


That is so sad, it must be hard to rehome a fish. I have to get rid of two zebra danios and I feel so bad.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

George Duke-Cohan said:


> That is so sad, it must be hard to rehome a fish. I have to get rid of two zebra danios and I feel so bad.


It was sad, he was a baby that I had raised from an egg too. The other male was his dad and it was his mum that was getting harassed by them both! He went to a lovely home though, where he is the only male with a harem of girls so he's living his best life  And his dad has calmed right down and stopped the chasing now that he's not competing with anyone any more.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

magpie said:


> It was sad, he was a baby that I had raised from an egg too. The other male was his dad and it was his mum that was getting harassed by them both! He went to a lovely home though, where he is the only male with a harem of girls so he's living his best life  And his dad has calmed right down and stopped the chasing now that he's not competing with anyone any more.


Who knew that fish were so fun, frustrating, cute and liveable.


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