# Sticky  How to choose a good Veterinary Practice



## Ianthi

I've been contemplating for some time a thread like this would be very useful in assisting owners with the very important but difficult task above. Selecting a new veterinary practice is by no means easy and one that should be undertaken with great care, but nevertheless there are some factors that should be very carefully considered as part of the selection process/decision making with a view to making the best choice.

I'm sure everyone here has some pointers that informed their decisions when for instance they moved area, or became first time pet owners. I believe it would be useful to share these thus enabling us to compile a list of screening criteria that should be considered as guidance during this very important selection process. We also need to look at reasons why you currently attend the practice you use!

I will start with a very general but basic ones! Numerous others..........

1. Asking other owners in the locality for recommendations and especially owners of your own pet species. Some veterinary practices are very good with dogs for instance but the same may not apply to cats!

2. Make an appointment to visit the practice. Make enquiries about a) number of vets employed there and their experience, their diagnostic facilities etc. in particular very basic but often lacking in some practices, blood pressure equipment-vital especially if you've got older animals.

3. Following on from the above, if you've got a cat who has an ongoing illness, making enquiries about how many other cats they are currently _successfully_ treating with the same condition.


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## Guest

Could I also add that FAB (Feline Advisory Bureau) have a list of Vets that are registered with them and so are showing a slightly higher interest in the welfare and treatment of Cats. List


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## Bonnie82

Great idea for a thread, and thanks for that link too *GreyHare*... I am pleased to see our chosen vet is on that list! Phew!


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## buffie

GreyHare said:


> Could I also add that FAB (Feline Advisory Bureau) have a list of Vets that are registered with them and so are showing a slightly higher interest in the welfare and treatment of Cats. List


I echo Bonnie 82 great idea and GH thanks for the link,I too see my vet for the past ??years is on the list :thumbsup:


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## Jayne31

GreyHare said:


> Could I also add that FAB (Feline Advisory Bureau) have a list of Vets that are registered with them and so are showing a slightly higher interest in the welfare and treatment of Cats. List


Thanks for the link, although none of the vets in my area appear on it


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## hobbs2004

I am a big fan of FAB. Such a fantastic website and full to the brim with excellent info.

Last time I changed vets in addition to the above I looked for four very specific things to be ticked off

1) vet/vet practice agrees with or at least respects my way of feeding
2) they do out-of-hour cover themselves
3) have their own U/S etc equipment
4) are willing to explore alternative approaches


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## Jansheff

Great thread thanks. I'm glad to see that my vets of the past 20 years are one of only two in my town on that list.

I'd second the out of hours service being important. We've called on this several times over the years - even on Christmas Day - and it's so reassuring to hear the vets we know and trust on the end of the phone when we call.


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## Ianthi

Thanks GH for the link! Very useful as an initial screening tool!

However, I believe it's worth refining the process a bit more as well, by doing some research yourself in addition. For example, a practice which appears on the list in my general area has received mixed reviews from feline owners like myself and not so good ones particularly where some feline conditions are concerned. In other words the treatment was far better when the clients looked elsewhere. Vets also move around and have their own little specialities.

I know the RCVS also provides a list of Accredited Practices which might also be helpful guide but of course the same advice applies!

Choosing a veterinary practice - RCVS Animal Owners


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## buffie

hobbs2004 said:


> I am a big fan of FAB. Such a fantastic website and full to the brim with excellent info.
> 
> Last time I changed vets in addition to the above I looked for four very specific things to be ticked off
> 
> 1) vet/vet practice agrees with or at least respects my way of feeding
> *2) they do out-of-hour cover themselves*
> 3) have their own U/S etc equipment
> 4) are willing to explore alternative approaches


Good qualities in a vets practice,but,in Edinburgh it is very difficult to find any vets who operate their own out-of-hours cover.My vets surgery is taken over at night by E-vets who see clients for most of the vets in Edinburgh at this one site.


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## Ianthi

Entirely agree with your observation Buffle. It's exceedingly difficult to find a vet who provides their own out of hours facitlities. You're very lucky Hobbs! Like everyone else I prefer to see my own vets-continuity of care for one thing not to mention others!

There are also some practices whose emergency clinics are actually situated a long distance away. The last thing I want is a long trek with a critically ill cat who may not be able to survive the journey! Another thing to consider!

At present my one is literally around the corner giving me some peace of mind!


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## Guest

buffie said:


> Good qualities in a vets practice,but,in Edinburgh it is very difficult to find any vets who operate their own out-of-hours cover.My vets surgery is taken over at night by E-vets who see clients for most of the vets in Edinburgh at this one site.


Same here the two decent practises in my town have the dreaded Vets Now as the out of hours and the other two independent practises I wouldn't allow them near my cats with a barge pole although I believe they do their own out of hours work, and the vet in one the large pet store vet clinics lives a good 40 mins away from where the practise is based so he is a no no in my book.


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## Cazzer

yes I think I am lucky as well. My own vets have four branches and a veterinary hospital. They act as out of hours vets for NE Bristol. Its still partly run by the son/daughter of the man who set it up 60 odd years ago. They are on the Fab and RCVS list. The two vets I usually see are both partners [one in his 50's and the other in her 30's] so one vet I've been taking my cats to for 20 years. For someone to leave the practice is rare and tends to be due to either babies or retirement. These two also respect [and agree] with my views on feeding my cats despite the fact they do sell RC. They also have specialists amongst some of the the vets as well so some more complex cases can be seen within the practice, rather than being referred elsewhere.


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## buffie

I have had to use the facilities of E-vets more than once and have always found the care excellent,coupled with the fact that any on going treatment does not mean my pet having to be tranferred to my own vets surgery,as it is already there,then I think it is possibly the best that I am likely to get.


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## Ianthi

Another point to consider and then I'm off out!

As well as facilities ( don't want my cat to travel miles for an X-ray etc ) another important element to consider- I much prefer multi-vet practices where vets can share good practice, confer with others re diagnoses etc. A sole vet operating at a branch of a chain is a little different but even so I tend to like large numbers! One practice I attended had clinical meeting to discuss patient care which I felt was a definite bonus!

Once I've chosen my general regular vet I tend to stick with the same one in follow up appointments, continuity of care etc.


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## hobbs2004

Ianthi said:


> Another point to consider and then I'm off out!
> 
> As well as facilities ( don't want my cat to travel miles for an X-ray etc ) another important element to consider- I much prefer multi-vet practices where vets can share good practice, confer with others re diagnoses etc. A sole vet operating at a branch of a chain is a little different but even so I tend to like large numbers! One practice I attended had clinical meeting to discuss patient care which I felt was a definite bonus!
> 
> Once I've chosen my general regular vet I tend to stick with the same one in follow up appointments, continuity of care etc.


Agreed and a very good point 

PS: Because it is such an important topic I have asked for this thread to be stickied


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## Guest

I would also check out how many permanent Vets they have and how many are Locums as some practises use lots of Locums so you never see the same vet twice which is annoying when you see a really good one then find they are now working at the other end of the country.


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## Cazzer

yes me too as there is probably six vets at my branch of which as already mentioned I tend to see only two regularly. My branch is only 10 mins away from where I live and the hospital about 30.


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## Bonnie82

We are also lucky here in Hull as we have the Kingston Veterinary Group (http://www.kingstonvet.co.uk/) with an animal hospital at the heart of it, which is just a 5-10 minute drive from my house. They also provide their own out-of-hours (24/7/365) emergency care which is wonderful. Everyone I've spoken to locally recommends them. Their prices are higher than some of the budget vets but it's not something I really want to cut costs with to be honest...  We don't even have our kittens home yet and already they're the centre of my universe.


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## Ianthi

GreyHare said:


> I would also check out how many permanent Vets they have and how many are Locums as some practises use lots of Locums so you never see the same vet twice which is annoying when you see a really good one then find they are now working at the other end of the country.


Agreed! I know of a chain in the area where locums tend to be the mainstay. With mine it's an exception and unless it's an urgent case I actively avoid them now!!

It's hard when a good vet leaves .....I had a brilliant one for years who moved away and things went downhill after that in the practice! Obliged to move elsewhere, then. Shame because I had built up a really good relationship with the nurses etc who were genuinely very fond of my laid back little cats and I know they took really good care of them!


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## buffie

Following on from Ianthi 's post above, re having a good relationship with vet nurses ,They should also be considered in your search for a good Veterinary Practice as they will be ,as in human nursing,spending a lot of time looking after your pet,particularly if it is hospitalised.


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## Ditsy42

A few things I also consider when choosing a new vet is that they r open 2 your views and beliefs on jabs, feeding, especially when feeidng Raw, what I hate is when vets give me a condascending lecture on bones etc, even though they don't know anything really about nutrition, also discusisng pros and cons of treatment rather than again a tendancy 2 lecture and that "they know best", they don't know my dog, I do 

I've also found a few vets in the past who r breed specific in that they don't actually like my breed, or don't fully underatand their traits, for example my old girl was a talker, anyone who knows anything bout Rotties know they can b talkers, I had 1 vet who told me 2 control her and that he didn't like Rotties and wouldn't look at her til I muzzled her, told him where 2 go, she wasn't aggressive, far from it!!


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## missye87

My surgery isn't on the fab list and only has one main vet! I love my surgery regardless though.

Our vet is lovely and has a good hand with animals, Sooty didn't mind him poking and prodding, neither does Benji. He gives special ear rubs after  Benji barely noticed when he was taking his temp! He is honest and up front with possible diagnoses and if he has had trouble diagnosing (some of you will know Sootys history with the haematoma which ended up being a symptom of the fact a tumor was eating through his pelvis) he hasn't been afraid to ask colleagues in other branches or at the hospital.

The premises are clean and fairly quiet, I often see him disinfecting his tools and the table without knowing I'm there yet so I know he is quite meticulous about it which is what I would expect.

The vet nurses are lovely and always know when its me calling and are very sympathetic and happy to listen to me waffle on. 

They are flexible in many ways like considering treatment and diagnosis options and taking in to account my opinion our financial situation, and big bills they let me pay off as and when I can.

Quite honestly I can't fault my practice even though they don't meet everybody's standards!


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## Doolally

buffie said:


> Following on from Ianthi 's post above, re having a good relationship with vet nurses ,They should also be considered in your search for a good Veterinary Practice as they will be ,as in human nursing,spending a lot of time looking after your pet,particularly if it is hospitalised.


Agree with everything mentioned, especially OOH cover, lots of vets specialising in different things so they can confer on cases, and this I've quoted...steer clear of anyone who is happy to employ non-RCVS registered veterinary nurses, all nurses should either be enrolled students, listed or registered veterinary nurses, anyone else calling themselves a veterinary nurse has not done the relevant training...and a lay person is allowed to monitor an anaesthetic, so if they're not listed or registered you could have a non-qualified person monitoring your pets anaesthetic. Where I work we will not employ nurses who are not enrolled students or listed or registered, it's disrespectful to us nurses who have worked hard to get where we are and care about our patients and standards of care, and IMO could be dangerous for the patients.


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## Ianthi

Missye - Not being on the lists doesn't necessarily rule out your practice as being a good one ( as you've mentioned yourself! ) and I like the fact that your vet was consulting with other colleagues and his approach to diagnoses.

One of the best vets I ever had was quite open if he didn't actually know what was wrong with my cat on the first visit which is fair enough in my view! I never viewed this as a reflection of his skills and knowledge. How could he without any diagnostics? I could always tell as well he had a genuine interest in the cats and was very enthusiastic about his job. Ability to communicate effectively with clients is also very important - it _is_ always possible to explain even complicated conditions using terms non-professional will understand! It's vital we owners know exactly what's wrong with our animals!

I think you've raised some other excellent points owners also need to consider. Hygiene and cleanliness are very important and something to look on when you first visit the premises. Having a look around the animal accommodation area is also advised ( though at times not always possible ) but I'd be wary if repeated requests were turned down.

I also like your vet's approach in dealing with your pets. How your vet handles animals is very important in my view. A vet visit is stressful enough and rough handling is very offputting. I remember being quite annoyed when an emergency vet tried to drag one of mine out of the cage! I remember thinking if this is the way he behaves in the owner's presence, well...........

Doolally-Agreed about the vet nurses! Apparently anyone can call themselves a vet nurse which is quite worrying indeed! Owners do need to confirm how many qualified nurses are employed there. Some practices do employ Animal Care Assistants and we need to draw a distinction between the two.

Likewise, this may appear obvious but nevertheless it worth checking when you visit if _all_ the vets employed there are actually registered with the RCVS? I would even take it one step further and check the register yourself because as far as I'm aware, a vet who has been struck off can still practice while an appeal is pending!! This is of grave concern to me! It's also worth noting that not all practices in the UK have been inspected and approved by the RCVS,

Additionally and worth noting - the RCVS has introduced the Practice Standards Scheme in an effort to encourage veterinary practices to participate and work towards achieving some standards for the benefit of the practice. It operates on a tiering system with Tier 1 being of basic standard and Tier 3 being the highest ie Veterinary Hospital with 24-hour care facilities. However, I must stress that this is a _voluntary_ process and I would prefer to see it as a statutory one, not only to improve access to information for us clients but also with a view to tighter regulation of the profession, similar to the GMC for doctors.

I would view this as a very useful guide in assisting us in our selection process.

About the Practice Standards Scheme - RCVS


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## 912142

Couple of points:

Not only is the equipment vital but the size of the op table, especially if you have large breed as damage can be done whilst they are under anaesthetic to their necks if the head slips off the table!

Which out of hours vet does the practice use? Very important to check them out also.

Personally I would like to see statistics on how well they perform (similar to the health service) - postcode lottery etc.


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## missye87

I got a bit nosey and looked up my practice and local hospital. The hospital was tier 3, but it didn't mention anything about the practice. The hospital is Goddard as well, so doesn't use Vet Now.

The surgery is equipped with radiology and operation theatre which I knew. I also got to see the back of the practice on the day Sooty was pts. It was clean, tidy albeit quite small. It wasn't very modern but that means nothing to me really, as long as it's clean. Sooty seemed to be quite happy in there, he had a toilet and his food and they used towels as beds for ease of washing. He was comfortable and that satisfied me.

I wouldn't swap my vet for the world at the moment, I'm happy with him, he is passionate about animals and he has an obvious good hand with them which is a huge difference to the vet we had over in Sweden  :incazzato: :mad2:


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## katieeeek

Living in Selby, there are a *very* limited number of vets, and I'd have to venture out on the train to either York or Leeds to find one on the FAB list  Which is alright to do, however not great in emergencies!! (The train services aren't reliable either!)

Plus, my vet (in Selby) is really expensive - because it's the only one!

But as long as my kitties are treated properly, i'm happy to take them there


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## PatrickCampbell

Finding a good veterinary practice may be a big challenge. You can take advices and recommendations from other pet owners. They can explain to you everything with their experience so that you may take decision easily. And you will also feel more secure when you know that your choice is being used by many people. You can also do inquiries to check about the vet and and his reputation.

Pet Insurance


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## fergyg

I'm afraid I have just had a cat tragedy with one of the veterinary practices on this list - I took my happy, active 12 yr old in for a dental last week. First, they rang to say they had broken her jaw when taking out a tooth but they had pinned it and she was recovering from the anaesthetic. Within the hour they rang back to say she was dead. She was a small cat and I think it likely they gave her too much anaesthetic while doing all this. I am completely devastated - to think I took her and left her to her death for no good reason.

I am not sure this list is any guarantee of good practice.


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## aliecia

We have had two vets over the years of being cat owners, I look for a vet just the same way I look for a family doctor, asking lots of questions. I prefer a vet that is a pet owner, just what I prefer, doesn't mean it guarantees that their a better vet, but both our vets were and are amazing and they had pets. We also like a vet that does home visits, in case our cats are sick, just like when we're sick and don't feel like going out, they may feel the same way. We also prefer an experience vet, sorry no freshly out of school veterinarians for us, and a vet that has a way for you to contact him/her after hours, sickness is unpredictable and doesn't always happen during business hours. We always check out the facility, my cats are princesses and deserve only the best, so if a clinic isn't clean and welcoming, then on to the next one. Another important aspect to a vet is someone who is easy to talk to, willing and available to answer your questions, patient and understands that your cat/cats is your family and needs to be treated as such. Our vet is wonderful, the most patient man I have every met who truly loves animals. Our youngest, Bella, is a handful, love her, but that's the truth, and he is so gently and patient. I can call him up and ask him any question, he's always willing to answer and his secretaries are great, organized, call me to remind me off appointments and annual physicals, wow this post was way longer than I intended, oh well.:wink:


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## newfiesmum

fergyg said:


> I'm afraid I have just had a cat tragedy with one of the veterinary practices on this list - I took my happy, active 12 yr old in for a dental last week. First, they rang to say they had broken her jaw when taking out a tooth but they had pinned it and she was recovering from the anaesthetic. Within the hour they rang back to say she was dead. She was a small cat and I think it likely they gave her too much anaesthetic while doing all this. I am completely devastated - to think I took her and left her to her death for no good reason.
> 
> I am not sure this list is any guarantee of good practice.


That is absolutely awful. I would definitely be reporting them to the authorities, (BVMA?) or whatever they are called. I am so sorry for your loss.

The trouble with vets is that you don't know if they are any good until you really need them, by which time it is often too late. You can really like a vet, see that he loves animals and takes good care, but when it comes to something serious, does he really have the expertise?


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## amandael

Oh how sad. Very sorry. 

I have checked the list and my vet is not on it but I am very happy with the practice. 

I see I am going against the flow of thought here but I don't mind too much about not doing their own on-calls. I actually find it quite responsible to refer to a practice / centre who are staffed, up and waiting all night, instead of waking people in deep sleep who have either worked all the previous day or who will have to work the next (and maybe operate on other kitties). 

Being honest - I work in an area of medicine involving a lot of on calls and you can really see the affect it has on the professionals.


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## Treaclesmum

Yay, my vet is on the list!!!!

I sometimes use another local vet who is great, but he is further away and he does on-call, although I think sometimes he seems stressed! I am really lucky that I can get to my current vet's in under 10 minutes!!!


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## havoc

> I actually find it quite responsible to refer to a practice / centre who are staffed, up and waiting all night, instead of waking people in deep sleep who have either worked all the previous day or who will have to work the next


It doesn't work that way. The on call vet is never one who has to get up the next day. The days of a single practitioner working 24/7 are long gone.


> Being honest - I work in an area of medicine involving a lot of on calls and you can really see the affect it has on the professionals.


In human medecine there's a patient who can tell you what other drugs they've taken that day. In veterinary medicine the patients records are not available OOH and the owner has often not been told what drugs have been given to their animal at an earlier visit. There's enough talk on here about Metacam for example for most people to know the potential for disaster if an animal has to be taken to an OOH centre.


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## Treaclesmum

havoc said:


> It doesn't work that way. The on call vet is never one who has to get up the next day. The days of a single practitioner working 24/7 are long gone.
> 
> In human medecine there's a patient who can tell you what other drugs they've taken that day. In veterinary medicine the patients records are not available OOH and the owner has often not been told what drugs have been given to their animal at an earlier visit. There's enough talk on here about Metacam for example for most people to know the potential for disaster if an animal has to be taken to an OOH centre.


I think in my previous vet's practice, it is just him who is oncall 24/7 for emergencies!! He's the senior vet, I think in fact the only vet (the rest are nurses). It's his mobile number, and I've called him twice (although thankfully didn't need to). He often sounds stressed and tired, which is another reason I changed vets!!


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## havoc

> I think in my previous vet's practice, it is just him who is oncall 24/7 for emergencies!! He's the senior vet, I think in fact the only vet


Modern economics mean he's a dying breed in small animal practice. Different still in very rural areas of course. Can you imagine a farmer's reaction if he calls his vet in the middle of the night for a difficult calving to be told he's got to take his cow to see some OOH chain


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## Tobacat

Have to admit I choose my vet just because it was the nearest at the time. Twelve years later I feel I made the right decision for me - they are close, always give an appointment at the next surgery if I'm worried, have surgeries every day, do their own in house urine analysis, xrays, scans, operations and they have 3 female vets which I'm sure Lottie prefers to a male one. They also provide their own out of hours service. They are always very kind and gentle with my cats as well.

There's now another one within a 3 min walk who can't provide parking, and testing, operations and out of hours has to be seen at their other surgery 12 miles away, so there's no comparison.


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## Treaclesmum

havoc said:


> Modern economics mean he's a dying breed in small animal practice. Different still in very rural areas of course. Can you imagine a farmer's reaction if he calls his vet in the middle of the night for a difficult calving to be told he's got to take his cow to see some OOH chain


Haha, yes! It's not a rural area, but this vet has only recently set up his own practice. He used to work at another local vets when I had my other cats, and cared for them in their old age right through to PTS, he was very caring and comforting so I wanted to take my 2 boys there, but it's easier now to go to the nearer one, and they do seem just as caring 

I hope the vet Daniel Doherty will soon expand his practice in bigger premises to include more vets, then it will truly be a 5 star service


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## amandael

havoc said:


> In human medecine there's a patient who can tell you what other drugs they've taken that day. .


 If only ........

Unfortunately many a human is unable to give their history !!!! And in emergencies it is very much the case.

Anyway - as I said, I knew I would be in a minority with my views on on calls. So I will just leave it there.


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## katerina10

sorry for intruding.. i am trying to find a good vet around my area (Edinburgh) so if someone could suggest any i would appreciate. Feel free to send me a pm. Thank you!


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## delca1

New to an area I went to a local vet, it was a large practice and I wasn't over keen the pet care was excellent, I think it was the size of the practice that put me off.
I tried another one, just two vets and I love it! Many years and lots of trips to the vet later (Jaz was excellent at running through stuff and needing stitches) I would not change. 
Apart from the medical side Jaz loved going there, all the staff were really friendly and kind and always spent time fussing over pets before treating them. When I had to make the decision to have Jaz pts they could not have been more considerate and caring. She was fussed over, given a million treats and was actually so happy up until the end. What more could I want?

I have no idea if my vet is expensive , I dare not compare them. ignorance is bliss


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## trixx214

I found this article and this might be helpful:
How Good Is Your Vet  7 Ways To Choose The Right Vet


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## goodvetguide

We could not agree more with many of the helpful comments on this thread. A particularly poor experience at a veterinary surgery a while back lead us to create Good Vet Guide Good Vet Guide which aims to be the most comprehensive database of veterinary surgeries in the UK. Unlike other similar sites, we allow users to rate veterinary surgeries against a set of general criteria and to post summary comments. The site is all about highlighting outstanding veterinary care and treatment so please take the time to rate your vet and help other pet owners to find outstandng veterinary care.

The site is free to join and use for both owners and vets so there is no excuse! The most highly rated vets will be shortlisted for the Good Vet Guide awards, details to be announced.

If you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact us at [email protected].


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## Paddypaws

This question is so often asked by new kitten owners and I think this video by Cats Protection explains things really well. Modern techniques and practices enable the safe 'early' neutering of cats, and although a lot of vets still suggest waiting till 6 months of age this advice is outdated and it is possible to find many that are trained in these advanced techniques. Cats Protection have a list on their web site, or you may want to call around the local practices in your area

Cats Protection presents Don't let kittens have kittens - YouTube
http://www.cats.org.uk/what-we-do/neutering/enr


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## peecee

Excellent video. The sticky idea is great.


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## Ianthi

Actually, I do wonder if this elusive species ie Good Vet really exists. By definition, it implies a good all round vet. but in essence, it all depends on how _knowledgeable_ and _skilled_ the vet you consult is at treating what your pet is suffering from _at that point in time_! I've had experiences where I haven't the slightest doubt I knew more about the condition than they did! One in particular, I would deem to be appallingly lacking in even the basics! To make matters worse he was the Head of the practice!

So when recommending vets to others we need to be more specific about what the professional in question is good at/excells at! While some are good at eg surgery it doesn't necessariy follow the same applies to internal medicine issues, for instance.

I've said for a very long time that vets should specialise more ie in either different species/conditions since I believe this alone would go a long way towards improving the service we receive as clients. The RCVS now requires all vets to submit details of CPD they attend-a step ( albeit small) in the right direction, I hope!


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## blckbrd

Terrific info!

I've been counting the days until I can let my 4 month old kitten out as we're both definitely going stir crazy and she's enough to handle without the prospect of littler ones...

Of course vets are highly skilled/educated professionals, but as with the wet v dry food debate, what's standard may not be what's best.

I'll be getting Dippy 'done' as soon as possible!


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## Paddypaws

VetCall Veterinary Surgery - 113 Station Road, Chingford, London E4 7BU
If you are anywhere near E4 east London this vet comes well recommended and early neuters.


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## blckbrd

Thanks Paddypaws.

Will chat to my vet to give her the option but if not I'll give your suggestion a go.


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## carmelaward

Need to know that your vet will look after your pet well when they are sick? The best solution is to find a good vet in advance before you need one, to make sure that you feel happy that they will provide the best care for your particular pet.


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## havoc

> I've had experiences where I haven't the slightest doubt I knew more about the condition than they did!


Me too, especially anything to do with breeding. I don't mind at all if the vet is someone who listens. My best experiences with vets have involved long discussions over blood results, looking over Noah _together_ to find the best option when there's nothing specifically licensed for cats, chatting about the last seminar I attended.

Skills apart, my perfect vet is one who isn't threatened by a knowledgeable owner.


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## Ianthi

havoc said:


> Me too, especially anything to do with breeding. I don't mind at all if the vet is someone who listens. My best experiences with vets have involved long discussions over blood results, looking over Noah _together_ to find the best option when there's nothing specifically licensed for cats, chatting about the last seminar I attended.
> 
> Skills apart, my perfect vet is one who isn't threatened by a knowledgeable owner.


Completely agree. The listening aspect is extremely important. I've also found the more knowledgeable _they_ are the less likely they are to feel threatened.


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## Littlerags

Great thread - thanks. I'm moving area soon and have been worried about finding a new vet - especially as I have such a good relationship with my vet now. Thanks guys


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## Shimmy

One other thing to consider, which I am about to do...find out where there are EMERGENCY VETS in you area and what their times are. My vet, who is literally across the road from me stopped doing emergency calls a few years ago. I made a point of ringing round other surgeries to find out their emergency cover and am about to check they still do emergencies.
I can think of nothing worse than my cat being injured, ill or otherwise and me frantically going through some out of date local phone books ringing round closed vets in the middle of the night.
I aim to have at least 2 emergency numbers locally I can rely on.


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## Katiepie

Not sure if this is the right place to ask for advice but here I go.

I have two cats, a boy and a girl. We got the boy spayed no problem at six months and it went completely fine. We wanted to get Belle done too but they were a little worried about doing it because she has breathing problems (lots of tests taken but we are not sure why ATM) and was underweight so they would not do it at the time.

It was fine at first because of her problems and size, she hadn't gone into heat so we thought we would wait.
She is now a year and a half and finally gone into heat and is driving us crazy (loud is not the word)

My question is..do you think it would be safe to get her spayed or not? She's an indoor cat but I know the risks of her getting out and what not. I'm completely pro spaying cats but because of the risks with her going under? Im not sure.


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## spid

YOu really have to ask the vet again - there are risks with not spaying - unmated cats can develop a potentially fatal condition called pyometra where the womb fills with pus and can explode inside the cat - and the cat will come into call every 3 weeks for about a week at a time until she is pregnant or spayed. There may be risks with spayed but you need to weigh them up against the other risks.


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## Katiepie

Okay. Going to book her in for a checkup this week and see what they think. She was 1.5kg the first time we had her weighed and she was 2.2 the last time we were at the vets so hoping she has gained more.


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## maui

I have 4 month old male kitten and he started peeing around the house. also, he was trying to mount another male kitten. is t alright to take him to vet to neuter him?


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## jenny armour

best to speak to your vet, some will some wont. when i bought my youngest two nfcs they were already neutered at 11 weeks. alot depends on the weight on the cat etc


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## Guest

I have been meaning to start a thread like this for a while after seeing that more and more people are coming onto the forums for advice because their cat has some form of heart disease and thought it might be a good idea to have a sticky post on this so there is somewhere for these members to come to, to ask questions, get advice and basically share their experiences.

*My Experiences*

Cuddles my beautiful cat was diagnosed in April 2012 with HCM (Feline Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy) after a heart murmur was detected the previous year. Of course initially I was mortified this happened, but over the course of time I have read up on HCM and done my own research into what HCM is, how it affects different cats etc and in doing this it has made me realise HCM isn't an instant death sentence and many cats can live for years after diagnosis without any complications if the disease is diagnosed early as treatment can be given to treat it when the treatment is needed eg if she goes into heart failure or gets fluid on her lungs etc.

Cuddles HCM was detected through a series of external tests the cardiologist done which included an ECG (electrocardiogram), Heart Scan (echocardiogram) and Xray (To check Cuddles didn't have any fluid build up), I was pre-warned by the cardiologist what the results might be before she had these done on the day. When I picked Cuddles up that afternoon in April 2012 they told me she has a grade 2 heart murmur and a 7mm thick wall of muscle in her heart (The worst thickness the cardiologist had ever seen, apparently). Cuddles went for her second lot of tests in July 2012, this was done as an emergency because she had other complications at the time (She had a mild asthma attack) and had to be admitted into the animal hospital over night. The same was done an ECG, Heart Scan and Xray they told me everything had stayed the same except her heart is beating faster 197 beats per minute (They said this could have been due to her being in hospital because a recent medical check over at the end of 2012 revealed this is now between 165 to 180 beats per minute).

Cuddles is doing great considering all of this and is now on no treatment for anything, full of life and on an excellent diet. Yes she has her bad days but her good days out weigh these and honestly you wouldn't know she had HCM the way she behaves  I think being at home definitely helps and surrounded by people that love her also helps.

I no longer worry, as I used to alot. Cuddles is being treated exactly the same way she would if I didn't know she had HCM and she seems to be enjoying her life now.

I learnt the worst thing you can do is stress and worry because your cat will sense this and this can cause your cat to get worse, the best thing you can do is just treat your cat the same way you would if you didn't know your cat had HCM or Heart Disease.


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## Cadburys mum

Some great advice there, Cuddlesandme! You're right about trying not to stress too much. When we were initially having the problems with giving Cadbury his meds, I was very stressed and he looked thoroughly miserable and depressed. I know that a lot of that was because he didn't like having the meds, but some of it was probably down to me getting so upset. 

But since he now takes the pills inside treats, it's a lot less stressful for both of us and he's so much more relaxed now.

It's really encouraging to hear how well your Cuddles is doing - that's great news!


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## Guest

PLEASE DON'T READ THE INFORMATION ON THE PAGES LISTED BELOW OR FILE ATTACHED IF YOU AREN'T READY TO YET.

Here's some stuff I have read:

Heart Murmurs in Cats
10 Causes of Feline Heart Murmur
Cardiomyopathy in Cats
Causes of Heart Disease in Cats
Diagnosing Canine and Feline Heart Disease and Heart Failure
Feline Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM) - Causes, Symptoms & Treatment | Cat Health Collection
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) in cats
Feline Disease Profile - Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy
Treating Heart Disease and Heart Failure in Dogs and Cats

There is alot more to read online etc and don't be affraid of asking your vet or the cardiologist questions, honestly they don't mind they actually like it if you are taking an interest in your cats health condition, just ask for a consultation period where you don't have to take your cat in.


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## Guest

Cadburys mum said:


> Some great advice there, Cuddlesandme! You're right about trying not to stress too much. When we were initially having the problems with giving Cadbury his meds, I was very stressed and he looked thoroughly miserable and depressed. I know that a lot of that was because he didn't like having the meds, but some of it was probably down to me getting so upset.
> 
> But since he now takes the pills inside treats, it's a lot less stressful for both of us and he's so much more relaxed now.
> 
> It's really encouraging to hear how well your Cuddles is doing - that's great news!


That's OK.

The important thing is with a cat that has HCM is for it to live in as much of a normal environment as possible (and treat your cat the way you would if you didn't know it had HCM - But keep aware), basically what your cat is used to and to keep the environment as stress free as possible. I am sure the Cardiologist that dealt with Cadbury explained a few things to you (Mine did when Cuddles was diagnosed) eg things to watch out for like rapid breathing, lethargy etc?


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## Cadburys mum

We haven't actually seen a cardiologist (I'm fairly certain there isn't one at our vet) but our usual vet (the one who treated and diagnosed him) called us in for a consultation when we went to pick him up after his initial diagnosis and explained everything to us then. 

He did seem v lethargic the first week or so but has perked up a bit now.


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## spid

Now you see I really don't get the need for constant rescanning. Stress can cause cardiac arrest, scanning causes stress. I have refused all extra scans on Minnii as she got very stressed having the first one. I won't subject her to that again. She lives a good life without too much intervention.


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## Guest

spid said:


> Now you see I really don't get the need for constant rescanning. Stress can cause cardiac arrest, scanning causes stress. I have refused all extra scans on Minnii as she got very stressed having the first one. I won't subject her to that again. She lives a good life without too much intervention.


I do see where you are coming from and I have decided to let Cuddles live her life, no more scans unless absolutely necessary. I am treating her as if I didn't know she had HCM and it is at the back of my mind now, no more stressing or worrying about it 

She is enjoying her life now and I want to keep it that way. I do appreciate all your advice by the way.


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## Cadburys mum

I think I spoke too soon - Cadbury isn't at all well today  Last night, just before we were due to take him downstairs (he doesn't stay up with us at night), he seemed quite happy and started purring, but his purring was really really fast, almost as though he was going to hyperventilate.

It eventually slowed down, and we took him downstairs as usual. This morning when I was feeding him & Simba, he came out and started drinking from the water bowl and was there for ages drinking. He had a small amount to eat, but he didn't seem right. He was very slow in his movements.

He followed us upstairs and seemed to be breathing quite heavily (no open mouth though so he wasn't panting as such) and he just lay on the bed not really wanting to move very much. I tried giving him his treats with the pills in, but he just wasn't interested at all.

We managed to get the Fortekor and Frusemide down him a bit later, and he has perked up a little bit. He did manage to go back downstairs and went and had more to drink and a little more to eat, but he has been quite listless.

At the moment, it's kind of hard to say how he is because he's sleeping and he would normally be asleep this time of day anyway. But this morning he was certainly the worst we've seen him since his diagnosis a few weeks ago.

Now yesterday he didn't have any Proponol because we're running out of them so we wanted to try and spread them out a bit - our vet didn't prescribe any more of those or the Plavix which we're also running out of. So I don't know if he's worse today because of the lack of Proponol. Although it is significant he's been drinking a lot more today.

We have got to speak to our vet tomorrow anyway, as she wanted us to ring her to tell her how he's doing.

He was doing so well too....


----------



## Guest

Cadburys mum said:


> I think I spoke too soon - Cadbury isn't at all well today  Last night, just before we were due to take him downstairs (he doesn't stay up with us at night), he seemed quite happy and started purring, but his purring was really really fast, almost as though he was going to hyperventilate.
> 
> It eventually slowed down, and we took him downstairs as usual. This morning when I was feeding him & Simba, he came out and started drinking from the water bowl and was there for ages drinking. He had a small amount to eat, but he didn't seem right. He was very slow in his movements.
> 
> He followed us upstairs and seemed to be breathing quite heavily (no open mouth though so he wasn't panting as such) and he just lay on the bed not really wanting to move very much. I tried giving him his treats with the pills in, but he just wasn't interested at all.
> 
> We managed to get the Fortekor and Frusemide down him a bit later, and he has perked up a little bit. He did manage to go back downstairs and went and had more to drink and a little more to eat, but he has been quite listless.
> 
> At the moment, it's kind of hard to say how he is because he's sleeping and he would normally be asleep this time of day anyway. But this morning he was certainly the worst we've seen him since his diagnosis a few weeks ago.
> 
> Now yesterday he didn't have any Proponol because we're running out of them so we wanted to try and spread them out a bit - our vet didn't prescribe any more of those or the Plavix which we're also running out of. So I don't know if he's worse today because of the lack of Proponol. Although it is significant he's been drinking a lot more today.
> 
> We have got to speak to our vet tomorrow anyway, as she wanted us to ring her to tell her how he's doing.
> 
> He was doing so well too....


*Firstly try not to stress or get upset as Cadbury will sense you are stressed and upset.
Secondly is it frusemide or furosemide and is it Proponol or Propranolol Cadbury is taking?*

I would phone the out of hours emergency vets number for advice if you are concerned about anything, you can get advice over the phone. Still speak to your regular vet tomorrow regardless. Regarding the Proponol and Plavix I would give him normal doses and ask the vet tomorrow if they are continuing or stopping them, and if another prescription can be given so you don't run out.

I personally would get some advice from the out of hours vets.

I hope Cadbury starts feeling better soon?

Hope this helps?


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## Guest

cuddlesandme said:


> Firstly try not to stress or get upset as Cadbury will sense you are stressed and upset.
> Secondly Is it frusemide or furosemide and is it Proponol or Propranolol Cadbury is taking?
> 
> I would phone the out of hours emergency vets number for advice if you are concerned about anything, you can get advice over the phone. Still speak to your regular vet tomorrow regardless. Regarding the Proponol and Plavix I would give him normal doses and ask the vet tomorrow if they are continuing or stopping them, and if another prescription can be given so you don't run out.
> 
> I personally would get some advice from the out of hours vets.
> 
> I hope Cadbury starts feeling better soon?
> 
> Hope this helps?


I was trying to find this link which I think I put on your post: Furosemide (Lasix) in Dogs and Cats - Uses of Furosemide in Dogs and Cats



> *Pet owners administering furosemide to their dogs or cats should be aware of the potential side effects of the medication. Furosemide can cause imbalances of the electrolytes in the blood stream. **These electrolyte imbalances may result in symptoms such as:
> *
> *drinking excessive amounts of water (i.e being thirsty)*
> lethargy
> depression
> restlessness
> reduced urination
> GI distress (vomiting, diarrhea, etc.)
> elevated heart rate
> coma
> seizures
> *Administering furosemide may also result in excessive water loss and may cause dehydration*. Blood pressure should also be monitored while your pet is receiving furosemide.


I hope Cadbury starts feeling better soon?


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## Cadburys mum

Thank you Cuddlesandme. Although he still seems quiet, he does seem a bit more alert and his breathing isn't quite so laboured, so we are less concerned than we were this morning.

Just looked at the pill bottles and he's taking Frusemide 20mg, half a tab 3 times a day and Propranol 10mg quarter of a tab twice a day. I actually assumed that Frusemide and Furosemide were the same thing and the same with Propranol and Propanolol - mostly because they sound v similar! 

I think our vet is trying to get Cadbury off the Plavix and Propranol but we will ask her about it tomorrow.

It's all v confusing and I'm trying not to stress about it too much, particularly in front of him. Thank you SO much for all your advice and help, I really do appreciate it.


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## Guest

Cadburys mum said:


> Thank you Cuddlesandme. Although he still seems quiet, he does seem a bit more alert and his breathing isn't quite so laboured, so we are less concerned than we were this morning.
> 
> Just looked at the pill bottles and he's taking Frusemide 20mg, half a tab 3 times a day and Propranol 10mg quarter of a tab twice a day. I actually assumed that Frusemide and Furosemide were the same thing and the same with Propranol and Propanolol - mostly because they sound v similar!
> 
> I think our vet is trying to get Cadbury off the Plavix and Propranol but we will ask her about it tomorrow.
> 
> It's all v confusing and I'm trying not to stress about it too much, particularly in front of him. Thank you SO much for all your advice and help, I really do appreciate it.





> I actually assumed that Frusemide and Furosemide were the same thing and the same with Propranol and Propanolol - mostly because they sound v similar!


 I am not to sure as I said in your thread I have no knowledge of the medication, it was just coincidence that I had read up on the Furosemide on one of the links I posted on your thread http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/a/CW-Lasix.htm and on this link http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/a/CW-HeartDiseaseTreatment.htm.

Sorry I am not much help regarding the medications you have been supplied and perhaps one of the other forum members can help.


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## Cadburys mum

cuddlesandme said:


> Sorry I am not much help regarding the medications you have been supplied and perhaps one of the other forum members can help.


I've just googled it and it appears Frusemide is the British Approved Name (BAN) and Furosemide is the International Non Proprietary Name (INN) so they are in fact the same.

When I googled Propranol it seemed to suggest I'd typed it in wrong and said was I looking for Propranolol so I think maybe the label on the bottle has been spelled wrong. Looking at the notes the vet gave us, she has spelled it as Propranolol.

Update on Cadbury is, he woke up this afternoon and seemed much brighter. Gave him his pills no problem, he seemed v keen on the treats and he's had something to eat too.

He's even been a bit of a noss pot, nosing into cupboards!  So maybe he was just having a bit of an off morning.

I think at this early stage, we're getting quite paranoid about him and every little thing seems magnified. I suppose it's just a case of trying to get used to the fact that he isn't the same cat he used to be.


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## Purdey

Hello all, my vet said the earliest he would do my cat was 5 months, but I am sure I have heard of some breeders selling kittens already neutered???

I was quite happy for him to be done at 5 months as he's indoors only and it's before he's started spraying but if you've got an outdoor one I can understand the worry.


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## spid

blckbrd said:


> Terrific info!
> 
> I've been counting the days until I can let my 4 month old kitten out as we're both definitely going stir crazy and she's enough to handle without the prospect of littler ones...
> 
> Of course vets are highly skilled/educated professionals, but as with the wet v dry food debate, what's standard may not be what's best.
> 
> I'll be getting Dippy 'done' as soon as possible!


I wouldn't let a kitten out until 10 months old - especially in London - the dangers are immense and they have the attention span of a gnat. One stray leaf needs to catch their attention on the other side of a road and they are goners; let alone what 'yoofs' do nowadays. I would get her a cat tree and some interactive toys, Da Bird is good and keep her occupied that way.


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## maisiecat

Tom, if you are around, could you tell me what symptoms Cuddles was displaying before you took her to the vet and discovered she had heart disease?


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## Guest

maisiecat said:


> Tom, if you are around, could you tell me what symptoms Cuddles was displaying before you took her to the vet and discovered she had heart disease?


She had no symptoms. The vet detected a heart murmur at a check up appointment and from this it was advised she had a heart scan (echo scan), ECG and X-ray and this is how I found out she had HCM and this was repeated 3 months after diagnosis to check for progression and there wasn't any.

Cats don't always have symptoms showing they have a heart condition the common indicator of heart disease is a heart murmur which your vet will detect via listening to your cats heart through a stethoscope. Heart disease can only be detected via a heart/echo scan, X-rays and ECG, this is the only way they can determine if a cat has heart disease at the moment.

You might find these links useful:
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/a/CW-HeartDiagnosis.htm
http://www.cat-world.com.au/feline-hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy


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## maisiecat

Thank you 

Bob was easy to diagnose, his breathing was loud and he was lethargic, his heart rate slow, and the xray showed enlargement.

I now have a different situation, which is why I asked. Maisie has always tended to have a bout of coughing as if she is trying to bring something up, then she won't eat for a while. She sometimes has had little sneezing episodes. Last Sept/Oct she had a dental, and a whole lot of other tests as she didn't start eating again afterwards. She had her check up and vaccination in Nov. and nothing was noted, no abnormal heart sounds or coughs.

We moved in January, a few weeks ago she did the coughing/ sounding like a furball sound but no furball. She then went off her food. She has had a dental with a new vet, she has also had bloods done, a tracheal wash, X ray and ECG. Result - nothing definitive. So, nothing is showing, however they have said she has a murmur, grade 2.

She still has a little cough, but she has a hole in her throat where the tracheal wash was done. Vet has given her a steroid injection as she is still not eating, not losing more weight but not putting any on, and is now talking about a cardiologist. 

I am thinking - she has had an xray and ECG, blood tests, so why can't they tell without the cardiologist. We went to the cardiologist with Bob, just in case there was an underlying problem and the vet didn't have very good equipment, this vet has all new, fancy equipment which is why we went there but nothing is showing up


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## Guest

> she has also had bloods done, a tracheal wash, X ray and ECG. Result - nothing definitive. So, nothing is showing, however they have said she has a murmur, grade 2


 If she has a heart murmur this would indicate she does have a heart condition, but in saying this kittens have murmurs and these get better with time (not so in adult cats). Regarding the X-ray and ECG, this will not necessarily pick up any heart deformities and this is why an echocardiogram scan is needed to be done and the only person qualified in my understanding to carry out an echocardiogram scan is the cardiologist. An echocardiogram scan of the heart is an indepth scan of the heart (link provided and quote from link below).



> She still has a little cough, but she has a hole in her throat where the tracheal wash was done.


 Has your vet tested for asthma and other respiratory infections?


> has given her a steroid injection as she is still not eating, not losing more weight but not putting any on,


 I would be down at the emergency vets if my cat wasnt eating at all. It's dangerous for cats not to eat anything for 24 hours.



> I am thinking - she has had an xray and ECG, blood tests, so why can't they tell without the cardiologist. We went to the cardiologist with Bob, just in case there was an underlying problem and the vet didn't have very good equipment, this vet has all new, fancy equipment which is why we went there but nothing is showing up


 The cardiologist would have to get involved as the vet has done all they can do and all the tests they have done have come up negative. The cardiologist will be able to take a more indepth look at why your cat has a heart murmur, this is normally an indicator your cat will have heart disease, but as you said the vet can't find anything wrong. The cardiologist will do an echocardiogram scan of the heart (heart scan) which will be able to pick up any heart problems.

This is what an exchcardiography scan is: 
Echocardiogram in Cats (Cardiac Ultrasound) - Page 1



> An echocardiogram is indicated to evaluate pets with a suspicion of congenital or acquired heart disease. An echocardiogram may be performed when indicated by the results of an X-ray, when there is a suspicion of heart disease based on physical examination. For example, detection of a heart murmur or irregular heart rhythm could be an indication for an echocardiogram.
> 
> Many veterinarians refer animals needing an echocardiogram to a specialist (cardiologist) because performing the procedure requires particular skills and equipment.
> 
> *What Does an Echocardiogram Reveal?*
> 
> Echocardiograms help to evaluate the structure and function of the heart. This test can be extremely useful for identifying birth defects, heart muscle diseases (cardiomyopathy), and problems with the heart valves. The exam also can be used to identify fluid around the heart (pericardial effusion), cardiac tumors, and heartworm infection. The chest cavity and cranial mediastinum (upper chest cavity) also can be evaluated, though in most cases the lungs cannot be visualized (due to the air in this organ).
> 
> *How Is an Echocardiogram Done? *
> 
> Specialized (and very expensive) equipment is required to perform an ultrasound exam. The hair on the chest may need to be clipped. The pet is placed on his side on a padded table and held so the chest surface over the heart is exposed to the examiner. A conductive gel is placed on a probe (transducer) that is attached to the ultrasound machine. The examiner places the probe on the skin between the ribs and moves it across the surface to examine the heart from different perspectives. Ultrasound waves are transmitted from the probe and are either absorbed or echo back from the heart structures. Based on how many sound waves are absorbed or reflected, an image of the heart is displayed on a computer screen. With proper training and sufficient experience, the sonographer (examiner) can create consistent images of the heart to create a three dimensional reconstruction of this organ and recognize departures from normal. Echocardiography is a safe procedure and generally takes about 30 to 60 minutes to complete. Additional time is spent measuring heart values.
> 
> *Is an Echocardiogram Painful? *
> 
> No pain is involved. The procedure is noninvasive.
> 
> *Is Sedation or Anesthesia Needed for an Echocardiogram? *
> 
> Neither sedation nor anesthesia is needed in most patients; however, some cats resent laying on their sides, and may require some sedation to allow a diagnostic procedure. Sedation also can be advisable if there is difficulty in breathing due to heart or lung disease to reduce any stress associated with an unfamiliar procedure.


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## maisiecat

Thanks Tom,
She is eating, but not well, enough that she doesn't lose any more weight, but not as well as she should which is why we took her back to the vet on Saturday, that is when she had the steroid injection in case it was asthma. She had this last time she had the dental.

Actually I remembered last night - last time she had the dental her throat was inflamed, I don't recall the vet looking at her throat or mentioning it this time.

In the years we have had her not once has a murmur been mentioned which means that:
a) it wasn't there to be detected
b) it was there but the vets didn't tell us
c) it was there but the vets didn't find it
This worries me, as does the fact that it is suddenly there now we have changed vets.

Now I don't want heart problems to be undetected but neither do I want to subject her to the stress of driving her to a cardiologist and all that the visit will entail unless it is essential. She has had endless poking and prodding and being stuck with needles already, and she went through a lot of extra tests last time.

We have an appointment booked for the weekend so will ask the vet to check her throat and see what they say. What is odd is that she coughs after she has jumped up on to my lap, then she swallows quite a bit.


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## Craftymamma

Hi great thread thanks. I am pleased the vets I have chosen 'SimplyCats' is on the list.


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## Treaclesmum

spid said:


> I wouldn't let a kitten out until 10 months old - especially in London - the dangers are immense and they have the attention span of a gnat. One stray leaf needs to catch their attention on the other side of a road and they are goners; let alone what 'yoofs' do nowadays. I would get her a cat tree and some interactive toys, Da Bird is good and keep her occupied that way.


You will probably find she calms down alot after spaying and doesn't want to go out quite so much!! 

She will still of course be interested in going out but as Spid says there are just too many dangers at this young age. Some cats, especially girl cats, can be very small until their 1st birthday (mine was) and really should not be out at all until then at least. Mine now have an enclosure which they love!! 

Depends what part of London you are in though, my area is very leafy and suburban but even so, a cat of mine lost his life on the road last summer, so all areas have their dangers, especially for young cats.


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## maisiecat

I used to use one of the chains, it was nearby and seemed OK, apart from the last time I took a pet there, he was epileptic and he was to be boarded and he died, I cannot be sure but I have a feeling. Never saw the same vet twice though.

When we moved and got our boy we needed a vet the next day so went to the first one we found which was adequate, another chain. Appointments were timed to the second and they only had time for one ailment per visit.

Found out our neighbours had a cat so asked them who they went to and stayed with the practice until we moved house this year. I miss them very much although sometimes their equipment wasn't the best. I had a vet that I trusted with my cats, and most of the others were good (one exception, a new vet that I refused to see again). 

I read this thread a while back and asked on the forum for recommendations after doing as much research as I could. I wanted to find a vet I could walk to but there isn't one, and the one I might have chosen has out of hours in the same area as the vet I eventually chose. The one we are going to now had an open day so went to have a look last year.

I chose them because there are 3 vets which means you can ask for the one you want, they have up to date premises and equipment and at the time I found them, all the vets had cats of their own.

Unfortunately we have needed to use them within a short time of moving house so are still getting used to them.


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## Brookes

cuddlesandme said:


> *Firstly try not to stress or get upset as Cadbury will sense you are stressed and upset.
> Secondly is it frusemide or furosemide and is it Proponol or Propranolol Cadbury is taking?*
> 
> I would phone the out of hours emergency vets number for advice if you are concerned about anything, you can get advice over the phone. Still speak to your regular vet tomorrow regardless. Regarding the Proponol and Plavix I would give him normal doses and ask the vet tomorrow if they are continuing or stopping them, and if another prescription can be given so you don't run out.
> 
> I personally would get some advice from the out of hours vets.
> 
> I hope Cadbury starts feeling better soon?
> 
> Hope this helps?


This is really good advice Cuddlesandme :thumbsup:- maintaining the normal doses is essential. Betablockers can be very helpful with HCM but stopping suddenly can cause a rebound effect/rapid heartrate (at least it can in humans therefore I'm sure the same applies to cats) which is the very thing you want to avoid. The plavix is to prevent clots which these cats can be prone to too.


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## Emmir

Purdey said:


> Hello all, my vet said the earliest he would do my cat was 5 months, but I am sure I have heard of some breeders selling kittens already neutered???
> 
> I was quite happy for him to be done at 5 months as he's indoors only and it's before he's started spraying but if you've got an outdoor one I can understand the worry.


I have a four month old ragdoll boy and I took him for a check up a couple of weeks ago as he started peeing around the house and I asked the vet how some breeders sell kittens already spayed/neutered as I always thought it was done at six months and he said that some vets will operate on really young kittens but he personally wouldn't as it was quite involved and fiddly as in boys, the balls haven't dropped and so they almost have to search them out. Then he started talking about balls dropping and all I could think was how as a woman, I know nothing about such matters :laugh:

Anyway, as Alfie's peeing problem is behavioural rather than caused by an infection or whatnot, the vet said neutering him as early as possible is advised but at the moment he's underdeveloped so maybe he will have to be six months. Then I've just had major drama as the poor little guy got an intussusception but that's a whole 'nother story!


----------



## spotty cats

Emmir said:


> but he personally wouldn't as it was quite involved and fiddly as in boys, the balls haven't dropped and so they almost have to search them out.


Can't say locating the testicles has ever been an issue for my vets, who neuter and spay my litters at 10-12 weeks.
As one vets said 'you can see they're boys from across the room' - more than developed enough.

But some vets don't like to keep up with current procedures and stick to the old 6 months rule.


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## Gizmo85

Hi All,

My vet (a genuine animal lover) advised me that it was best to let my cat have her first heat before spaying to allow her to fully mature into an adult. I followed his advice with no issues (if you discount the 5am yowling and unpleasant displays lol) Is this incorrect? It certainly made sense to me. She is an indoor cat so there were no issues with accidental pregnancy.


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## borderkp

thanks to the OP with the link to the cpl, i have been able to find a vet close to me who will spay at 4 months. last one i asked looked at me as if i had 2 heads


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## Guest

I don't feel I know "enough" about my cat's cancer and prognosis  as and when the cancer spreads (which it is doing) what actually happens so the cat? What do they feel? How does it affect them??

I really need to know what's happening to my cat and I can't find the answers anywhere, does anyone know what happens when cancer spreads??


----------



## KathinUK

Gopher said:


> I don't feel I know "enough" about my cat's cancer and prognosis  as and when the cancer spreads (which it is doing) what actually happens so the cat? What do they feel? How does it affect them??
> 
> I really need to know what's happening to my cat and I can't find the answers anywhere, does anyone know what happens when cancer spreads??


Hi Gopher Sadly its been quiet on this thread as we've recently lost a number of PF cancer kitties

Sorry to hear Bessie's tumour seems to be growing .
In terms of what to expect and to look out for I can only think it would be a deterioration in their condition, appetite and general behaviour. Have you started her on any supplements at all?

Sally is now 2 months post surgery - excision of 2 lymph nodes and has been up and down.

It can be so stressful tho her lymphoma is apparently slow growing. But I watch her like a hawk and never really know what to expect

Kath


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## maisiecat

An update on my search for a new vet.

We are still registered with the one we chose when we moved, for Maisie. Having seen all the vets there I think between them they have the qualities needed, they confer with each other, and it gives you a chance to see which one you think is most suited. They do their own Xrays, scans etc. but their OOH is at the RVC hospital which is some way off and not easy to find if you haven't been there before.

However none of them specialise in cardiology, so I have registered Bob elsewhere. I have looked time and time again at their website and as we have now said goodbye to our vets of 8 years I phoned today with my list of questions, all of which were answered patiently.

I wanted:
A vet that knows about cardiology, they have 2, both based at the local branch.
Own out of hours cover, they do this at their hospital, I like continuity of care and access to the records. *Using a different OOH means that they cannot read the patient history.*
Xrays and scans etc. locally, they do these at their hospital which is about the same distance as the other vet, so no difference there.
Blood tests on site, they do this at their hospital.
They will prescribe repeat meds for 3 months
Home visits are available

If only I could combine both of them...........


----------



## KathinUK

Hi all
Its been a sad few weeks in which we've lost a number of the PF cancer kittes 
Condolences to all the owners and RIP to the kitties.

Sally seems to be doing quite well at the moment having regained the weight she'd lost plus adding to it. Her tummy has been settled for weeks now.

I'll update this thread in more detail when I have access to my PC.
Kath


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## Polly G

So pleased to hear that Sally is doing well. I was only thinking of her yesterday because I hadn't seen a post from you recently. :smile5:


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## demi

Hi everyone, 

Firstly, im in Macedonian which is really behind in time. They are under equipped at the vet surgery and the stuff that they do have is very outdated (like from the time of Tito), the vets (and the doctors) learn old techniques from very outdated books. It's like being back in time here. 

So i rescued a kitten from the street. I was always under the impression kittens and puppies get neutered as early as possible and vaccinated starting from 6 weeks. When i took my kitten to the vet here when she was about 6 weeks old they told me it was too early to bring her for vaccines and spaying and to bring her back when she's 6 months.The vet actually laughed when i asked, like it was a ridiculous question. Is that right? Why are they not vaccinating her now? She's now about 12 weeks, i think, she's still got her baby teeth. I wan't her to be fully vaxed and spayed before letting her out. There are strays all over the place and i don't want here to get sick or pregnant. Do you think because they learn old techniques and don't have proper equipment that it's dangerous to do it before 6 months? I don't understand why they wont vaccinate her now, why wait for that??


----------



## KathinUK

Polly G said:


> So pleased to hear that Sally is doing well. I was only thinking of her yesterday because I hadn't seen a post from you recently. :smile5:


Thanx for that Polly - we had been very pleased with Sally's progress and weight gain tho this last few days she's thrown a number of furballs and had an upset tummy. She's picking up again tho slower than I'd like.

I want to list a mini-protocol for anyone considering an holistic approach to treating feline cancer. The basis is :

DMG drops from VetriScience
Turmeric - up to 500mgs daily
IP6
Medicinal Mushrooms - can be added to food, made into a liquid using Vit B complex syrup or mixed with melted butter. 10-25mg per lb of cat
LypoC - which is a highly concentrated form of Vit C 
LDN - Low Dose Naltrexone - 0.03ml per lb of cat

If anyone wants more details then please ask. Otherwise I'll try to update the thread when I can locate more information.

Kath


----------



## turnips

This might be useful for anyone in central or north London. Beaumont Sainsbury Animal Hospital isn't listed on the Early Neutering website, but I called them up recently to ask what age they neuter from, as their neutering is discounted since final year students observe/assist. At least with males (castration), they do it from 16 weeks, and it's £48 as the base price. If you are a student, retired, on benefit or low income it's lower, but £48 is pretty affordable for London, especially at a trusted practice.


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## melb

Am so glad i found this thread as last week my 13yr old cat Daisy was diagnosed with heart failure.This was somewhat of a shock as i was expecting it to be her kidney's. I noticed that she was breathing rapidly and laboured, had a reduced appetite, very lethargic and when she refused tuna i knew she was ill!!.These symptoms appeared very quickly and my vet seems to think we can give her ? months of a good life still.
She has been prescribed Frusemide and Vetmedin, within 24hrs the improvement was rapid, her appetite returned, breathing slow and steady and she seemed to be her usual perky self. If anyone with experience of this can give me an idea as to what to expect regarding life expectancy i would be very grateful, i guess from now on every day will be a bonus.


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## Elizabeth and Bertie

Well, here we are again, folks. Didn't expect to be back here so soon....

It's not even three months since we lost Jim Bob to cancer, and now it seems that our beautiful tabby and white boy, Moses, has cancer too.

He's lost a lot of weight without any obvious cause, and it looked like he had some kind of problem with absorbing food. This morning I was concerned about him so took him back to the vet again, and there is a mass in his intestine...

So, here we go again... Am still a bit in shock at the moment.... 

Will let you know how things go.

Love and hugs to all with 'cancer kitties',

Eliz x


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## Cazzer

Oh no so sorry to hear about Moses. Hope he will be with you for as long as possible x


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## buffie

So very sorry to read this  Everything crossed here for Moses and hope that he still has some quality time with you xx


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## Polly G

So sorry to hear about Moses, Eliz you must be gutted. Thinking of you and sending a big hug x


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## Paddypaws

Oh Eliz, I am really sorry to read this terrible news. What a horrible thing to have to deal with and so soon after your sad loss of Jim Bob.:nonod:


----------



## Elizabeth and Bertie

Aw, thanks so very much for the kindness and support. I appreciate it more than I can say....

Moses is now on steroids to try to reduce inflammation in his gut and help him absorb nutrient from his food. No change in him yet but...he still seems to be a happy little soul in spite of everything...

Will keep you posted.

Thanks again you lovely, lovely, lovely people!


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## KathinUK

Hi Eliz
I'm so sorry to hear your latest news and hope you feel encouraged to try . Curcumin etc again.

Sally has been really well recently eating well gaining weight and no more furballing.

Unfortunately tho its my turn to be ill. I've been in hospital for6 weeks and am now staying in a hospice for 2 weeks before going home.
They say they found an" untreatable tumour "on my left lung tho no biopsy or definitive diagnosis. Naturally I'm using all my resources to fight this and have a wonderful medical herbalist who visits me .

Sorry to go on. I do wish you all the best with your current battle.

Take care
Kath


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## KathinUK

Elizabeth and Bertie said:


> Aw, thanks so very much for the kindness and support. I appreciate it more than I can say....
> 
> Moses is now on steroids to try to reduce inflammation in his gut and help him absorb nutrient from his food. No change in him yet but...he still seems to be a happy little soul in spite of everything...
> 
> Will keep you posted.
> 
> Thanks again you lovely, lovely, lovely people!


Eliz I'm sorry to hear your sad news. But also want to say that as you haven't had a biopsy how can you really know whats happening - not that I'm suggesting you get one. I just want to say tho that Sallys ultrasound some months ago showed thickening but we now suspect it was very severe furball issues. Bill has furminated her and brushed and combed her so much that the furball frenzy has at last ended along with any sign of illness.

She is eating like a horse and playing like a kitten all over again. Shes 14 yrs.
Just a thought in the hope that it may encourage you.

Hugs
Kath x


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## Elizabeth and Bertie

KathinUK said:


> Just a thought in the hope that it may encourage you.
> Hugs
> Kath x


Kath, your ability to give support to others  even though facing a major health challenge of your own - shows just how deeply the river of compassion runs within you. I am truly humbled by your concern for our situation.

You are a very special person indeed.

I think everyone here regards you with great affection and respect, Kath; and Im sure there are many prayers and positive healing vibes winging their way to you though the ether. Take very good care of yourself. We all want you to be happy and well.

Love,

Eliz


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## KathinUK

Thanx for your kind words Eliz.
I'm back home now and pleased to see for myself just how well Sallys doing - despite her biopsy confirmed lymphoma.

A good low cal mainly raw diet with lots of grooming has worked wonders for her.

How is your kitty doing- have you made dietary changes. It seems the curcumin levels aren't backed with studies -- it leaves me feeling uncertain inthe absence of professional herbalist guidance or lots of time finding and following current studies.

All the best

Kath x


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## Elizabeth and Bertie

Hi Kath,

I'm so pleased that you're back home with Sally. And it sound like she's doing really well. You're doing a fantastic job with her.

Sadly, my beautiful kitty Moses didn't make it...
He was PTS at home 3 days ago, and was buried this afternoon in the woods right next to where Jim Bob was buried earlier this year. 
I asked the trees to take what nourishment they can from his body; and to stand guard over his bones. I hope his spirit flies free and is forever happy.

It has been - and still is - an immensely sad time. But I am so grateful for the 16 years that he has been a part of my life.


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## KathinUK

Oh Eliz I can't even begin to tell you how sorry I am to hear your sad news about Moses.

May you find comfort knowing you shared his 16 healthy and happy years.

Did I speak to you of my deep sorrow when I had my little Wispe pts back in March?
I was still grieving while in the hospice when the resident little ginger tom visited me .....and became semi-resident in my room. We spent hours cuddling while watching the abundant wild life. 

I know its early days for you especially at a time when you're likely still raw from loosing Jim Bob but would just like to say that comfort can come from the most unexpected sources. 

Big Hugs to you Eliz

Kath


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## Bobsfriend

Hi
As a new member to the site I was hoping for a bit of advice.....
Our cat bobs is 16, and we have recently been told she has heart failure and medication was prescribed to reduce blood pressure and blood volume.
She also has ear mites for which we have drops.

We have been told by the vet to prepare for the worst and have a follow up appointment in 2 weeks
Just a bit of history, bobs is a house cat that we've had since she was a kitten, she's a black and white moggy and has never really had regular check ups, last time she was at the vets was about 2 years ago. We were told she had a heart murmur after having dental extractions about 10 years ago, but this has never really affected her life or activity.

We initially went with her to the vets as she had an episode where she was sick with a small amount of yellow bile then fell over. She recovered quickly but was very lethargic and off her food, dilated pupils on and off for about a week.

She generally seems ok in herself since the vets on Friday. Was the vet being over dramatic in saying we should prepare for the worst??


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## Brookes

Really sorry about poor Bobs, that must be so hard for you. What tests did the vet do? The heart failure is probably due to whatever is causing the murmur which she could have been born with. The murmur is noisy blood flow and can be due to anything really, the only way to investigate the murmur is to have an echocardiogram but this would only be available is a specialist centre and would be expensive. A chest xray would show if there was enlargement of the heart and other features of heart failure but I think they would need to sedate Bobs. If it is due to a leaking heart valve, the heart would gradually enlarge until it is unable to pump effectively and fluid would build up. One of the signs to look out for would be a cough. The tablets you say she has been prescribed are probably water tablets like frusemide that Daisy in the earlier post was prescribed. This should help her symptoms a lot but unfortunately it won't cure the root problem. The blood pressure medication, I'm guessing, could be an ACE inhibitor (they have names that end in "pril" like enalapril) which will help the heart failure. I think when your vet said to prepare for the worse he/she probably meant that the heart problem itself can't be fixed but that doesn't mean that the symptoms can't be managed to give her a better quality of life. It sounds like the medication is already helping. Are you due to go back to the vets for a follow-up? If you are, make a list of questions to ask. Your vet is the best judge of Bob's condition. When my little cat was ill (with kidney disease) I was told to expect the worse too and I found it really difficult to even speak to my vet about it because I found it so hard, couldn't speak without breaking down. In the end I e-mailed her a list of questions and she was great. Gave me direct answers to all my queries.


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## oracleseer

Hi, thanks for this thread, I find that reading up on Lymphoma across the web is confusing, so was wondering if anyone can help me to understand what is going on with my cat, who is now just one year old.
As some of you may recall, he had a kidney infection a short while back, and after 3 days in hospital and a course of anti-biotics, he changed into a really lovely cat both in behaviour and looks...his coat positively glowed.
The Vet had said he needed to go back for a scan as they don't know what caused the infection, but she warned me of the possibility of Lymphoma.
Unfortunately, due to my own bad health at the time, I missed the appointment for the scan.
Anyway, my cat seemed fine until about a week ago when he started sleeping by himself again, something that I've come to recognise as a sign of him not being well. Last wednesday I noticed sores all over him and treated him for fleas, guessing these sores were from him biting himself, but one particular sore was worse than the rest, around his groin area, and when i checked it thoroughly I found a large lump under the skin.
I took him to the vet on Friday and they confirmed the skin infection was due to him biting himself, and of course they're concerned about the lump. But they also found his Lymph nodes are swollen. (At the rear legs)
They gave him two steroid injections and have put him on a course of anti-biotics and steroids. I was amazed to find that just 8 hours after the steroid injections, the sores on his back and sides had disappeared, though three larger ones on his stomach remain.
Now for the second time, the vet has warned me of the possibility of Lymphoma. 
I'm having trouble understanding the nature of the illness, especially as my cat loves life, loves going out, loves me coming for walks with him, and calling him in at night time! His character is really lovely and well...we get on really well. He often has passersby marveling at him when he follows me down the street and listens to everything I say, navigating his route by pavement or gateways, depending on how much traffic is about, he's really quite something.
But right now he's sleeping on my desk next to me looking rather lonely, I've come to realise he's like this when he's ill. But his coat looks amazingly shiny again, since the steroid injections. He started the antibiotics today.
Could my cat really have Lymphoma? I mean that when he's well he's so happy, he flits about outside like he's embracing nature, he's so well behaved and so loving, so could he really have an underlying illness? Are the effects of Lymphoma sporadic or is my vet just warning me of the possibility? I have to admit that she wanted me to realise the possibility is quite strong.
He has to go for his scan in two weeks time (they need the sores to heal before scanning), and I'm really quite worried. Can anyone give me a down to earth explanation of Lymphoma?


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## KathinUK

I'm so sorry to hear of your dilemma. Also that I haven't a simple explanation of lymphoma. 

My 14 yr old SallyCat has a rare and slow growing 
tpye confirmed by biopsy last Spring. She had 2 submandibular lymph nodes removed only to expose a third one.
She was quite ill vomiting lots of fur balls and off her food.
Then I got ill with what the medics say is lung cancer!.

So while I was in hospital my partner took over Sallys care.

He groomed her vigorously with our Furminator - she has long fur - until she stopped throwing daily furnballs and started eating. He put her on a completely raw diet. She has never looked back! Almost a year later she's regained her weight plus more and seems absolutely fine. I'm not saying she's lymphoma free but is not troubled by it IF she does still have it. 

So as I said I can't offer an explanation just a little encouraging anecdotal evidence.


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## oracleseer

Hi Kath, sorry to hear of your own ill health, I hope you've got it all under control. Thanks for your response, my cat hasn't yet been diagnosed with cancer but was ill a couple of months back with a kidney infection and blood in urine. He's just a year old now and was a very unsociable cat from the time I got him, but always seemed to have a lovely nature which he was trying to hide. He would often try to enjoy being stroked but then start vomitting, and this was since I got him at 3 months old. 
When I took him to the vet he had to stay in for 3 days and responded very well to antibiotics, when i got him home he was a completely different cat, his coat shone more and more every day and he's since become such a beautiful pet to have around.
He's now got inflamed lymph glands and a lump near his groin but seems to be his normal self after just a few days on antibiotics.
I did find a good web site which helped me to understand it more, and to understand why my vet has indicated cancer, I couldn't understand before how he could look so radiant and well yet still be ill.
I really wouldn't know how to handle it if he is diagnosed with cancer, he's so responsive, understands everything and trusts me so much...if I had to make a decision on his life, it would tear me apart.
I'm hoping that he's well and these recent illnesses are coincidental, but very much appreciate your insights, and knowing that there is a way forward for him if he is diagnosed with Lymphoma.
Thanks again


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## sante

I was just browsing through the forum and saw this thread 

I have done a bit of googling and found this information which seems to be up-to-date Cardiomyopathy In Your Cat When Your Pet's Heart Fails - Heart Failure I noticed that a new drug called Vetmedin (pimobendan) - which hasn't been approved for use in cats yet works on increasing the amount of calcium available to the heart muscle and lowers vascular resistance and blood pressure (increased blood vessel diameter or vasodilatation) so your pets heart has to do less work. It says studies show that it appears to help the hearts of cats but has only been used for use with dogs. It seems that the more calcium levels there are the stronger the hearts contractions are. This information is available on page 3.

Very interesting that calcium seems to help a cats heart I don't know if perhaps a raw diet with bones in it would be beneficial instead of using this drug as bones are packed full of calcium?


----------



## LostSoul

I am expecting to be told today that my boy has lymphoma, hes not quite 2 yet and has been ill for almost 10 weeks with jaundice, anemia and high temperature...his anemia and jaundice are now under control but then his lymph nodes swelled up, the first needle biopsy was clear but hes got so much worse in the last few days and every node in his body is swollen, 
i dont know what to do, the vet chemo really isnt an option in his opinion but Mac is so young, he had a horrible start in life....

has anyone had sucessful chemo for lymphosarcoma?


----------



## KathinUK

Hi Lostsoul so sorry to hear of your kitties illness.

If and only if this is confirmed by biopsy to be lymphoma there is an active yahoo Group that deals mainly with conventional treatments for cancer in cats.

Sorry I don't have access to the list at the mo but a search on Yahoo Groups should find it.

HTC
Kath


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## mardatha

I'm on the state pension but where I live there is no PDSA. Can I ask a vet to give me a discount or will they fall over laughing? 
And the second question is how much does it cost to have a female persian neutered please?


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## buffie

mardatha said:


> I'm on the state pension but where I live there is no PDSA. Can I ask a vet to give me a discount or will they fall over laughing?
> And the second question is how much does it cost to have a female persian neutered please?


Costs vary from town to town even vet to vet so there is no real way to advise re cost.
Cats Protection may be able to help with neutering costs have a look at this link.............. Cats Protection: What we do: Neutering


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## jenny armour

i am lucky where I live, as if we take our animals in at a certain time and you have a gold card then we get 10 pct off the vet bills/. I don't think that includes consultancy but every bit helps


----------



## Frogg

I'm planning on neutering our little Berry in a couple of weeks, he's 20 weeks presently. Can I ask if anyone is aware of how much the reduced testosterone results in them not growing to the same size as they would have if they'd been a stud? I'm just curious :001_smile:


----------



## Paddypaws

Frogg said:


> I'm planning on neutering our little Berry in a couple of weeks, he's 20 weeks presently. Can I ask if anyone is aware of how much the reduced testosterone results in them not growing to the same size as they would have if they'd been a stud? I'm just curious :001_smile:


I think that neutered males actually tend to grow larger than an entire male....something to do with the hormonal changes. If you look at entire street cats they tend to be fairly compact in stature, albeit packed with muscle. Entire males do tend to develop a cobby head and thickened neck but TBH I think a neutered male looks more in proportion.


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## Ceiling Kitty

TBH our standard recommendation is still 5-6 months, but we can and do perform early neutering as well.


----------



## jenny armour

Frogg said:


> I'm planning on neutering our little Berry in a couple of weeks, he's 20 weeks presently. Can I ask if anyone is aware of how much the reduced testosterone results in them not growing to the same size as they would have if they'd been a stud? I'm just curious :001_smile:


my last two wegies were neutered at 11 weeks, and judging by their size I reckon they are a good size


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## mardatha

I'm worried sick. Wee cat went in this morning to get done and when we went back at 4 the vet brought her through dopey and bleeding. Then he said oh I didn't notice this bleeding until I picked her up, there's quite a bit of blood - just go home and phone me at 5.30, we close at 6.
So what do I do if they say oh shes stil bleeding - she cries if she's left in a room on her own and I want her home with me. I can sit up all night with her if need be, there won't be anybody up all night with her in the vets. :sad:


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

mardatha said:


> I'm worried sick. Wee cat went in this morning to get done and when we went back at 4 the vet brought her through dopey and bleeding. Then he said oh I didn't notice this bleeding until I picked her up, there's quite a bit of blood - just go home and phone me at 5.30, we close at 6.
> So what do I do if they say oh shes stil bleeding - she cries if she's left in a room on her own and I want her home with me. I can sit up all night with her if need be, there won't be anybody up all night with her in the vets. :sad:


One step at a time, lovey.

A bit of bleeding isn't uncommon, usually a little skin vessel that's been disturbed by moving her around, but if there is a concerning amount she'll need checking out.

Let us know what they say when you call them.

xxxx


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## mardatha

SHE'S HOME!! We got her!!


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## Ceiling Kitty

Jolly good. 

They did the right thing by keeping her a bit longer to make sure she was okay.


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## NaomiM

Thanks for this info  I've just booked an appointment for Pebbles with a new vet, as I was not happy with the one he had previously been seeing. I've found one that's registered with both the RCVS and ISFM, and is rated as 'silver' by the ISFM as a 'Cat Friendly Clinic'. They also have their own lab and lots of diagnostic equipment, including ultrasound, blood pressure monitoring, ECG and X-ray. They don't do their own out of hours unfortunately - the nearest place that does is a good half hour on the motorway - but they have a partnership with the place that does, and give them access to records etc. So on paper it seems to tick the right boxes - I guess the proof is in the pudding, as they say...


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## Finleythecat12

I go my cat neutered at 5 1/2 months old and it went extremely well. It is fine to neuter at 4 months


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## mardatha

She got the stitches out today, never touched them once and is doing fine...getting fat


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## Paddypaws

I have browsed this thread before but now it has become more relevant as it seems likely that my old boy Murphy (19) has Lymphoma.
He has responded well to a couple of steroid shots but I really don't plan to embark upon lots of invasive tests or too much medication.
I am interested in any supplements which I can give him which may help keep him healthy and comfortable.


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## Charity

I'm sorry this is going to be long. We lost our Siamese cat, YoYo, to lymphoma this time last year and, to be honest, I haven't been able to come onto this thread until today as it was such a terrible experience. I don't want to depress anyone who's cat has or is suspected of having this illness as every case is different as are outcomes plus everything went wrong in YoYo's case. I thought I would relay his story if only to show how important it is to recognise symptoms and do something about it straight away. This didn't happen for YoYo and tragically there was nothing we could do to save him.
When we adopted him in December 2011, he was recovering from a very bad respiratory infection having been abandoned and left to fend for himself outside for six months in his previous home. He came to us with a cough which, when it didn't clear up, our vet diagnosed as asthma and we treated him daily with an inhaler. Over the next six months, he had the occasional bout of being unwell when he was lethargic, not eating and became dehydrated. At this point, a blood test showed nothing which would point to cancer. A few days at the vets on a drip put him right again and the vets associated this with his asthma. It wasn't until August 2012 that he started to really go downhill, the bouts occurred every 2-3 weeks and be started losing weight and becoming weaker. One thing I always noticed right from the time we got him was that he had very prominent glands in his neck and one time, after an injection, the site became really sore, red and swollen up a little but with some special cream from the vets, it subsided. In February 2013, we got up one morning to find he had a lump either side of his neck, one small, one larger. Our vet said he either had an infection or it was cancer and took a biopsy but this was inconclusive. One side disappeared but the other grew to the size of a golf ball within days and I was worried it would restrict his breathing. We were really frustrated that in all this time, no-one could be definite about exactly what was wrong with him so I asked to be referred to a specialist. On the day we were to go, 40 miles away, YoYo was having a bad day and didn't even get out of bed or even move all the way to the specialists. It was their intention to remove the lump and do a biopsy and we would be taking him home the next day and he would then receive chemotherapy. As soon as the vet looked at him she said he was a very sick boy and too weak to operate on that day. We went home and they phoned and told us they were going to operate the following day (if we had known then what we knew afterwards we wouldn't have gone ahead with it). After the operation, they rang and told us it had gone well and he was just coming out of the anaesthetic. A few hours later they rang again to say they were having problems waking him up properly. Overnight nothing changed and we drove there first thing the next morning to find him totally disorientated, thrashing about in his carrier. Once on my lap, he just sat totally out of it though I know he knew it was me. It was so upsetting that, on the way home, we decided that if there was no change the following day, we wouldn't let him suffer. The next day (it was the Easter Bank Holiday weekend) when we arrived, there was an emergency so the vet was called away and we were able to spend an hour with YoYo, sadly not knowing that would be our last time together, until the vet could speak to us and confirmed that the biopsy had shown he had an aggressive lymphoma and the best thing was for him to be pts. I stayed with him and, without telling me what he was going to do, the vet filled a large needle (YoYo absolutely hated needles) and proceeded to put it straight into his heart, whereas I thought it would go into his leg as I had always seen before. YoYo saw it coming and reared up and I had to hold him tight until a few seconds later he died. I will never get that moment out of my head and I'm crying now just thinking about it. What I want to get across is that so many months were spent doing tests but never getting a positive diagnosis and, no doubt, being side tracked by what was supposed to be asthma, I wonder now, when if the original biopsies had been more accurate, he could have been receiving treatment, which he never got in all that time, so had no chance. I think all along there were signs which were suspicious but never acted upon sadly. My worst regret is that had we just been told before going to the specialists it was an aggressive lymphoma, we wouldn't have put him through the operation and the ensuing suffering. 
I wish all of you well with your little ones who are poorly and hope things remain positive.


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## Elizabeth and Bertie

Paddypaws said:


> I have browsed this thread before but now it has become more relevant as it seems likely that my old boy Murphy (19) has Lymphoma.
> He has responded well to a couple of steroid shots but I really don't plan to embark upon lots of invasive tests or too much medication.
> I am interested in any supplements which I can give him which may help keep him healthy and comfortable.


PP, I am gutted to hear that Murphy has lymphoma. 
And I do hope you still have many lovely sunny days ahead to share with him.

When my Moses was diagnosed late last year with Lymphoma the steroids worked quite well for him. They really did seem to perk him up, improve his appetite, and maybe even keep some weight on him for a while. It was clear that the treatment was palliative, but...the 'quality of life' is everything, isn't it...?

I cannot say, definitively, that any supplements I gave helped Moses (or Jim Bob earlier in the year) or not. I wish I _did_ know the answer to that.
Ordinarily I'd have given curcumin as an anti-inflammatory (and anti-cancer agent). But I read very contradictory stuff online about whether it was or wasn't a good thing to give curcumin and steriods at the same time. Some articles said it was a good thing, others that it wasn't. And in fact I did give it for a while until Moses decided HE didn't want to take it any more.

Aside from the steroids (and for a short time the curcumin) my main aim was to try to keep weight on Moses for as long as possible by ensuring that he ate well.
I also gave a small amount of pancreatic enzymes to help with food digestion/absorption.
Fortiflora was a godsend in getting both of my cancer kitties to eat their food.
I added a little extra fat to their food (got suet from the butcher, grated and froze it, and added that to their normal food).
Liquivite was brilliant. I offered it frequently, and it was often well received, especially if wamed a tad in the microwave.
Toplife kitten milk (goat's milk, cream and taurine) also hit the spot on occasion.
I also supplemented extra taurine at times, as this seemed to perk the kitties up and possibly stimulate appetite.

Raising the food bowls helped a lot in encouraging the cats to eat.

Other things I did to try to make the cats more comfortable were pretty obvious things like:
Making low litter trays so it was easier for them to get in and out.
Making sure they plenty of sheltered hiding places to rest/sleep with very soft bedding. I had a several cardboard boxes on their sides around the house , with folded old pullovers inside, so they could just crawl into there and feel safe and protected. 
A heat mat was always available and was sometimes used and sometimes not.
I improvised steps up to beds, sofas etc so that it was easier for them to get up and down.

Moses became unable to wash himself so I used petwipes to clean him. He didn't take to that immediately but came to accept it and then even enjoy the process; and it gave us some really special 'quality time' together.

As the cats became sicker I made sure they had food, water and litter trays close to wherever they'd settled.

It felt like we'd created a little 'home hospice'. And, although it was a difficult time in many ways, it was also very special at times. It actually felt like a real privilege to be able to care for the cats in this way.

I'm sure Kath will have many more ideas about supplements that you could try. She's very knowledgable about that.

Keeping fingers and paws crossed that you and Murphy still have lots of time together.

Sending you a* huge* hug.

Elizabeth x


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## Paddypaws

Elizabeth,
I can't thank you enough for that wonderful long reply, full of handy hints.
Having had old/sick cats around the house before, we are pretty well set up with the steps and cosy places....but there are some food suggestions there I have not tried out yet.
As you say, keeping the weight on him is my daily struggle.
I do add taurine, duck fat and some digestive enzymes into a syringe feed daily so it is good to know that these are all a good idea. Funnily enough none of my cats have ever touched liquivite but Murphy does like Gourmet gold pate made into a nice soupy mix.


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## Paddypaws

ok, just back from an expensive shopping trip which has yielded lots of goodies......seems like _someone_ is going to have lots of delicacies this weekend.
It is only in recent years that Murphy has taken an interest in food that I am eating, ofetn food that he would ignore if it was on HIS plate and not mine.
So.....some 'taste the difference' prawns for lunch went down well, and later tonight I have a nice piece of the butcher's prime chicken to roast for us to share. Tomorrow I will push the boat out and cook fillet steak  of which I normally get about 3 mouthfuls while Murphy snaffles the rest.
Vet has given me oral Prednisolone to give daily and see how he gets on.


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## Elizabeth and Bertie

Paddypaws said:


> ok, just back from an expensive shopping trip which has yielded lots of goodies......seems like _someone_ is going to have lots of delicacies this weekend.


Oh, wow! Murphy is going to be one spoiled cat!!! 
(Maybe he's going to expect this _every_ weekend from now on....?)


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## Satori

I was just reading through a site that PP linked to, for it's article on supplementation, and came across this superb article on Periodontal Disease. This one is really worth reading 

Feline Periodontal Disease - cat nutrition


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## CoCoTrio

Wow. Great link ST. 

Brushing... "all the coolest people are doing it"


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## chillminx

Excellent link Satori.:thumbup1: And I really liked the Cornell Uni Vet School video showing how to clean your cat's teeth. Have bookmarked it for future reference. 

Cat dental care is such an important subject which really needs to be taken on board in a big way by all cat owners. Might be worth asking Lynn if the thread could be made into a sticky?


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## Ceiling Kitty

Thank for 'Lesson Three' on that link - anaesthesia-free dental work is a baaaaad idea.


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## lymorelynn

Made this a sticky for everyone.


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## Lilylass

Thanks Satori, will have a good look / read through it 

Does anyone know (and apologies if this is in the info as I've only just quickly skimmed it so far) what percentage of cats have this problem?

I'm also wondering if there has been research done into how diet affects them?

I'm not sure if I've just been lucky but (touch wood) none of mine have ever had teeth problems & I wonder if that is diet related OR genetics!


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## Ceiling Kitty

Lilylass said:


> Does anyone know (and apologies if this is in the info as I've only just quickly skimmed it so far) what percentage of cats have this problem


85-95% of cats over the age of two, sadly.


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## Lilylass

Shoshannah said:


> 85-95% of cats over the age of two, sadly.


OMG that's awful 

I was thinking maybe 50% over about 8 or 9 years old ....jeeeezzzzzz


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## Ceiling Kitty

Lilylass said:


> OMG that's awful
> 
> I was thinking maybe 50% over about 8 or 9 years old ....jeeeezzzzzz


Periodontal disease is _the_ most common disease of cats and dogs, full stop.


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## lymorelynn

Shoshannah said:


> Periodontal disease is _the_ most common disease of cats and dogs, full stop.


I'd love to know if this has always been the case or is it to with their modern day diet? Or have vets just been educated more about dental problems?


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## Lilylass

lymorelynn said:


> I'd love to know if this has always been the case or is it to with their modern day diet? Or have vets just been educated more about dental problems?


Me too - I know that my mum often says that when she was young the dogs (and I guess cats if they got anything at all) were fed the scraps from the table - if there wasn't anything left, they got a buttered slice of bread

Now I know that will fill most of us (me incl!) with horror but generally they did pretty well & certainly didn't seem to have the allergy / intolerance / things like Colitis - and probably dental problems - that seem to happen now


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## Lilylass

Now read right through and it's certainly eye opening 

I am very like the OP that I wouldn't want to put an animal through an 'unnecessary' anaesetic but ......


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## Frogg

My 5 month old male kitten is currently at the vet waiting to be neutered! Bless him. My question is how long do I need to keep his collar on? He's not having stitches or glue or anything.

I'm going to boil some chicken for him later, maybe with a bit of rice, because he might be feeling sickly. I hope he'll be okay.


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## OrientalSlave

The various male cats I've had neutered have never had a collar and have never needed invalid food afterwards. They very soon give up wondering what is different and get on with their lives. They also have never had stitches or glue.


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## Quinzell

I'm the same as OS. We just carefully observe and will only use a buster if there is any need....we've not needed to so far


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## Frogg

OrientalSlave said:


> The various male cats I've had neutered have never had a collar and have never needed invalid food afterwards. They very soon give up wondering what is different and get on with their lives. They also have never had stitches or glue.


This is pleasing, as he is completely wound up by the collar and has pulled it off already! I might try keep it on overnight and if he doesn't settle down in it take it off completely tomorrow, although the vet advised a week


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## buffie

Most males never even notice that anything is missing,My Raggie Meeko came home from vets ,checked out the underwear department scoffed his tea and went off to batter his toys to bits,then crashed out and slept till morning.
I'm pretty sure your boy will be fine.


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## Citrineblue

Four out of my five cats are boys, all now neutered, not one had stitches nor wore the cone of shame. 

Even my girl , who had a midline glued, got a cone but we took it off as soon as she was home. 

Not one of the cats worried the area at all, a little licking for a clean up and that was that.


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## Cazzer

Poor Meeko, hope he is ok now?


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## spotty cats

I don't use e-collars on any of my cats or litters, never had any problems. They seem to cause more stress than anything. 

Haven't fed a different diet either, just their normal food.


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## chillminx

Lilylass said:


> I'm also wondering if there has been research done into how diet affects them?


Dr Diane Addie, vet researcher at Glasgow Uni Vet School has done years of research into the causes of the very nasty dental disease feline gingivostomatitis. Her studies find one of the causes (or triggers) is feeding cats a diet of highly processed food, especially dry food.

There is no cure for the disease, but the severity of it can be reduced by dietary management. This has definitely proved to be the case with one of my cats who has the disease badly.

Feline chronic lymphocytic plasmacytic gingivostomatitis

I am amazed if none of any of your cats ever had a dental problem all through their lives! Unless you have always fed a raw food diet, with chunks to gnaw on, as well as brushed your cats' teeth every day.  If not then you have just been extremely lucky!


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## bluecordelia

No collar or stiches out for mine...dissolving stitches. Blue ran around as usual jumping despite trying to keep her quiet. Bit of water first then nice lite tea like humans after an op.


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## Ceiling Kitty

I thought it may be useful to post something about the use of Metacam in cats, seeing as it is such a widely used medication.

If your cat is prescribed Metacam, you may be greeted with some disturbing reports from friends or on the internet. Whether or not you choose to use Metacam should be an informed decision, so hopefully this post will provide a starting point for your own research.

Two points first:
1. The following does NOT constitute medical advice. It is intended to explain Metacam and the pros/cons of using it from a general point of view. You must ask your vet if you have any concerns about your cat or the use of Metacam.
2. I'm keeping my own views out of it, by and large. But I will say now that I have used Metacam many times in my own cats and would do so again. I have personally seen very few cases of serious side effects, but this is anecdotal based on my own experience.

*
What is Metacam?*

Metacam is a drug called meloxicam. Metacam is a brand name, and is the first and most popular brand of meloxicam, but these days there are others as well. Most have injectable forms, which might be given by subcutaneous injection at the vet's, and a syrup for oral administration on food.
- Metacam (made by Boehringer)
- Loxicom (Norbrook)
- Meloxidyl (Ceva)
- Rheumocam (Chanelle)
All the brands are exactly the same medication and none is better than the others. There are differences in price, however; Metacam is the original and usually the most expensive.

It is worth pointing out an important difference between Metacam in the UK and in the States here. Bear this in mind if you are doing your own reading on the internet - American sites may give different information to UK sites.

In the States, Metacam used to be licensed for dogs only and the dog version was used 'off-licence' for cats. If something is off-licence, this means it has not been specifically tested on and marketed for the species or condition in question; it does not necessarily mean it should not be used. Zantac, for example, is not licensed in dogs or cats as it is a human medication, but it is very useful and has very few side effects.

Nowadays, Metacam IS licensed for dogs and cats in the States as an injectable, but it is the same formulation for both dogs and cats. The oral liquid is not licensed in cats.
*
The situation in the UK is different.*
- in the UK, there is a separate injection available for cats. The cat version (imaginatively called 'Metacam for Cats' ) is less concentrated than the dog version... well, I call it the 'dog version', but it is still licensed for cats. The specific cat version is probably better to use if you can get it.
- in the UK, there is also a specific cat oral version available which does not exist in the US. Again, it is less concentrated than the dog version and should always be used in cats.










*So, what is meloxicam?*

Meloxicam is in a class of drug called NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs). This is same class of drug as human medications such as ibuprofen, aspirin and diclofenac, but shine a light, don't give those to your cat or dog, EVER. While I'm at it, please NEVER give paracetamol to your cat as it is extremely toxic to them.

NSAIDs have three main properties which make them very useful medications.
1. They are painkillers, making them useful for most sorts of pain such as lameness, dental pain, abscesses and injuries, cystitis, back pain etc.
2. They bring down fevers, so can make a cat with a temperature feel much better.
3. They are anti-inflammatory, helping with the inflammation involved in a range of conditions including arthritis, cystitis, gingivitis etc.

*How it works - technical stuff*

Yeah, you can skip this bit if you want, but for anyone who is interested:

NSAIDs like meloxicam mainly work by inhibiting an enzyme called COX (cyclo-oxygenase). This enzyme is a natural part of the body's inflammatory response and results in the production of prostaglandins.

Prostaglandins are responsible for pain, inflammation and fever, so stopping their production by inhibiting COX reduces their effects, and this is how NSAIDs like Metacam work. Prostaglandins have also been implicated in certain cancer pathways. However, prostaglandins are not all bad. They also have some useful functions in the body. They are involved in blood clotting, maintaining the protective lining of the stomach, supporting blood flow to the kidneys and a variety of other normal bodily functions. This is important when considering the side effects of NSAIDs.

Just to make things even more complicated (I'm really sorry), there are two types of COX enzyme in the body* that we know about:
- COX-1 - mainly involved in the production of 'normal', helpful prostaglandins such as those involved in gastric and renal health. It tends to be released all the time at a constant rate.
- COX-2 - mainly involved in the production of the 'bad' prostaglandins such as those resulting in inflammation, pain and fever. This is usually only released when an infection or injury etc occurs.
I have written it this way for simplicity. *There is overlap and it's not quite as cut-and-dry as this.* COX-2 does have good effects as well, but these are outweighed by the bad effects.

_*a new isoform named COX-3 has also been identified, which seems to have a role in the control of pain in the brain and spinal cord, but not so much is known about this yet._

Why is this differentiation between COX-1 and COX-2 important? It comes down to side effects, mainly. Traditional NSAIDs (including meloxicam) inhibit all COX enzymes, thus wiping out the 'good' prostaglandins as well as the 'bad' ones. This is what can lead to side effects such as gastric ulceration and renal damage.

A few years back, the COX-2 selective NSAIDs were born and supposed to solve the problem. There aren't any licensed for cats, but an example would be firocoxib (Previcox for dogs). These are designed to knock out COX-2, thus inhibiting the production of 'bad' prostaglandins, while maintaining production of COX-1 and the 'good' prostaglandins. It's a good theory, but sadly it hasn't worked out quite as simply as that in practice; some of the side effects classically associated with COX-1 inhibition were reduced, but others still occurred.

There's a lot more going on in NSAID development than can be covered here, so I'll leave it at that for now. 

*Using Metacam for Cats*

The following applies to the UK license.

Meloxicam is the only NSAID licensed for long-term use in cats. I'll put a bit more about other NSAIDs used in cats at the end of the post, but we'll stick to Metacam here (it will also apply to Meloxidyl and Loxicom if you use those instead).

Injecting Metacam
Your cat may receive a one-off injection of Metacam at the vet's, for example to bring down a fever or for a minor injury. The injection is given under the skin and lasts 24 hours. Either the dog/cat version or the cat-only version can be used, but the latter allows more accurate dosing as it is a lower concentration.

The injectable version of Metacam is licensed to be given as a one-off injection and not repeated. However, under certain circumstances (for example, if a cat is not eating or will not take the oral formulation), the injection can be repeated off-licence. Boehringer do provide guidelines for vets on this - basically any repeat injections given must be a quarter of the original dose.

Oral Metacam
This may given as a course of a few days following an initial injection, or as a long-term medication for cats with ongoing pain caused by arthritis. It can be used indefinitely. Only the cat version should be used, never the dog version. The syrup is given once a day with food (either mixed with the meal or syringed into the mouth on a full stomach).

Dosing of oral Metacam is based on the cat's bodyweight and should only be done with the syringe provided. Using any other syringe will be inaccurate and could result in overdose or underdose. I'll write a bit more about dosing later on, so stick around (well done for getting this far).

*Side effects of NSAIDs, incuding Metacam*

All medications have side effects, it's inevitable. NSAIDs are no exception, and while most of their side effects are mild and not serious, some can be. Remember that these are drugs that can be purchased over the counter at a supermarket and are not hugely regulated in the human world, and that deaths sadly occur in people taking drugs like diclofenac and ibuprofen as well. Yet many of us continue to take them. I can't take NSAIDs any more because of my gastric ulcer troubles, but I used to. And if I did take them, they would still work... they just screw my stomach over in the process. 

Anyway, getting sidetracked. The side effects of NSAIDs, including Metacam, are largely down to their inhibition of those 'good' prostaglandins we spoke about if you read the technical bit.

1. Gastric upsets. These are the most common side effect and can range from mild vomiting and diarrhoea to severe ulceration, depending on the circumstances. Mild cases usually usually resolve without problems once the medication is stopped. If your cat loses his/her appetite on Metacam, has vomiting or diarrhoea or black faeces (melena), seek immediate veterinary advice.

2. Bleeding disorders. These are much less common. Symptoms may include bruising, bleeding into the urine or faeces, nosebleeds and breathing difficulties. Contact the vet immediately if you see any of the above.

3. Kidney failure. Cases of acute renal failure following Metacam administration have been reported - these are more common when the medication is overdosed or given to dehydrated cats, but can occur at normal doses in normal cats. This kind of reaction is rare, but of course this is of little comfort if your cat is one of the few affected. Look out for signs of lethargy, increased thirst or increased urination: with prompt treatment (hospitalisation and fluids), many cats can recover from acute renal failure.*

_*anecdotally speaking, I have seen one case of a young cat who sadly went into acute renal failure following a dose of Metacam, made a full recovery with treatment and has since been treated with NSAIDs again without any issues whatsoever._

4. Liver disease. Rare cases of a liver reaction to Metacam have been reported. Symptoms of this can include lethargy and inappetance (generally feeling unwell), jaundice or vomiting. Seek immediate veterinary advice if you see these or are otherwise concerned.

These side effects tend to be more common in older cats, or those with pre-existing diseases. The risk of renal failure is particularly increased in cats suffering with significant dehydration, or those in shock after an injury or accident. I would like to add that while NSAIDs should be used with increased caution in older cats, being elderly is not a reason to be denied pain relief (especially as it is our older cats who tend to suffer with long-term pain such as arthritis). I'll add a bit more about using NSAIDs safely in older cats further down.

*Contraindications - when Metacam should not be used*

There are circumstances in which NSAIDs are contraindicated - that is, they should not be used at all. These include, but are not limited to:
- hypovolaemic shock (such as immediately after an accident, severe haemorrhage etc).
- significant dehydration.
- pre-existing cases of gastric ulceration.
- impaired liver or renal function*.
- pregnancy or lactation.
- cats also receiving steroids or another NSAID.
- known allergy or hypersensitivity to meloxicam.

NSAIDs are not completely contraindicated in cats also receiving diuretics (eg frusemide) or ACE inhibitors (eg Fortekor), but their use should be considered and executed carefully.
_
*according to the official datasheet. More later on the use of NSAIDs in cats with renal disease._


*Dosing oral Metacam to reduce side effects*
*
NEVER MAKE ANY CHANGES TO YOUR CAT'S DOSING SCHEDULE WITHOUT RUNNING IT BY YOUR VET FIRST.*

How to dose?
Oral Metacam is only available as a liquid, which makes accurate dosing easier compared to using tablets. As mentioned earlier, always use the syringe that comes with the bottle. If you lose/break it, ask your vet for another and do not be tempted to use a different syringe as the Metacam one is quite specific. Always give Metacam on a full stomach - either mixed in with the food, or into the mouth after a meal. Giving Metacam on an empty stomach will increase the chance of tummy upsets.

When to dose?
Not much work has been done on the best time of day to administer Metacam to cats. Peak effect in dogs seems to be around 7.5 hours after administration. It may make sense to try and time the dose so that the peak effect coincides with your cat's most active period - record when your cat seems most active then speak to your vet about it. Do not give Metacam any more often than every 24 hours.

How much to dose?
Always go with what your vet has prescribed, but if you wish to change the dose then speak to them about it. The ISFM/AAFP guidelines on NSAID use in cats suggest reducing the dose given before decreasing the frequency of dosing. Gradually reducing the dose to the lowest effective dose, in conjunction with your vet's advice, is one way of minimising side effects - but it won't work for every cat (some need the full dose). One study in 2008 found that cats given less than the recommended dose for about 6 months did pretty well and suffered minimal side effects, but it was subjectively assessed. Cats that are overweight should be dosed for their 'lean' bodyweight - dose the cat, not the fat.

How often to dose?
Metacam has a half-life of 24 hours and is licensed for once daily dosing. Generally, the ISFM/AAFP guidelines suggest sticking to this, reducing the amount given per dose rather than giving the medication less often. Giving the medication 2-3 times weekly risks leaving the cat without effective pain control some of the time. 'Pulse therapy' - that is, giving bursts of medication every now and then for a long-term condition such as arthritis - is not recommended in most cases, but speak to your vet.

So, if you are looking to reduce the long-term dose of Metacam that your cat is having, it is better to try a smaller daily dose but keep giving it daily. Be aware that doses in long-term conditions such as arthritis are likely to change over time, so be prepared to increase the dose again if necessary. Once again - sorry for sounding like a cracked record - always involve your vet in your decisions.

Right, all of the following information is based on the awesome ISFM/AAFP guidelines on the long-term use of NSAIDs in cats. A lot of this is going to apply to the older boys and girls, who are:
a) more likely to need long-term Metacam because of arthritis,
b) are more likely to be suffering with other conditions such as CKD, IBD etc.

*Metacam and renal disease*

Prostaglandins are involved in maintaining the blood flow to the kidneys, so NSAIDs such as Metacam reduce renal blood flow. This is currently an inevitable side effect. In acute kidney failure (thinking lily toxicity, antifreeze, kidney infections etc), the use of an NSAID would likely make things a lot worse. As mentioned before, Metacam can (in some cases) actually cause AKF (acute kidney failure) on its own. This seems to be more common in cats than in people, and is more likely if Metacam is given in cases of dehydration, shock or in older patients. It is usually reversible if caught and treated quickly.

The role of NSAIDs in CKD (chronic kidney disease) is less clear. In human medicine, some studies have shown that NSAID use can induce progression of existing CKD; others have shown that it does not. Studies that found a link found that the risk was low.

Some interesting studies in the world of feline medicine have been carried out looking at this.
- a 2008 study followed cats with IRIS Stage 3 CKD that were given a low daily meloxicam dose for arthritis over a period of six months. There was no progression of their renal disease compared to healthy controls.
- a 2009 study followed cats with IRIS Stage 1-3 CKD also given a low daily meloxicam dose for 12 months - same outcome.

So, while the official UK datasheet from Boehringer states: _*Do not use in cats suffering from* gastrointestinal disorders such as irritation and haemorrhage, *impaired hepatic, cardiac or renal function* and haemorrhagic disorders..._ recent research has suggested that the long-term use of Metacam in cats with pre-existing CKD is reasonably safe, provided the CKD is stable and dosing is carried out carefully.

I should point out that the US datasheet states something different: _Do not use Metacam Oral Suspension in cats. Acute renal failure and death have been associated with the use of meloxicam in cats._ Remember that in the States only the stronger concentration is available, whereas in the UK we have a cat-only version.

The ISFM/AAFP recognises that many older cats suffer with CKD, and has made some recommendations for the use of NSAIDs in these kitties to make it as safe as possible. These are summarised as such:


The risk of developing AKF from NSAID use exists, but is considered low.
Monitoring bloods and urine for continuing assessment of renal function is recommended. Checking blood and urine samples before, during and after Metacam therapy increases the chances of catching AKF early in the unlikely event that it occurs.
Use the lowest dose of Metacam possible (see previous section of post).
Always give Metacam with food, and don't give it if the cat doesn't eat. Ensure adequate water intake - wet food!
Address dehydration and shock before giving Metacam. In the event of anaesthesia, ensure that blood pressure is maintained and consider the judicious use of a drip.
If there is heart disease AND CKD together, it makes things problematic due to an increased risk of AKF - try alternative pain relief options if possible.
I will finish the renal stuff with a direct quote from the guidelines:
_Current data suggest that at least some NSAIDs can be used safely in cats with stable CKD at judicious doses, and that this should not be a reason for withholding analgesic therapy when it is indicated. Further data, particularly in cats with advanced renal disease, would be valuable and such pharmacovigilance studies are vital._

Part two shortly... bear with...

Edited March 2016 to replace broken photo link.


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## Charity

Thanks Shosh, that's very interesting and informative.


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## Cazzer

Thank you for this Shosh very interesting.

I am firmly in the camp who will let their cats have metacam where appropriate as have seen the result on an old arthritic cat who was much more mobile when on it. He could run up the stairs and jump around again, and it gave him a new lease of life


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## Ceiling Kitty

Here's part two - the post was too long and the forum wouldn't let me post in one! :lol:

*Metacam and gastrointestinal disease*

Prostaglandins are responsible for maintaining the health of the stomach lining, so NSAID use has commonly been associated with gastritis and gastric ulceration in humans, dogs and cats. Vomiting has been the most commonly reported side effect of NSAIDs in studies looking at cats - but a 2009 study found that only 4% of cats receiving long-term Metacam at standard doses vomited.

Higher doses of Metacam and pre-existing GI disease increased the risk of digestive side effects. Guidelines recommend the use of a COX-2 selective NSAID for long-term use in cats, but none are licensed beyond six days, so this is problematic. We can hope that, in the future, further research will lead to the development of effective COX-2 selective NSAIDs for cats.

In the meantime, always make sure to give Metacam with food/on a full stomach to reduce the chances of gastric side effects.

*Metacam and heart disease*

To be brief, not enough research has been done yet into the risks of NSAID therapy in cats with heart disease. Generally, the lowest dose possible should be used for cats in congestive heart failure and blood pressure should be monitored regularly.

*Metacam and liver disease*

In very rare cases in human medicine, NSAIDs can cause liver toxicity. This is regarded as a idiosyncratic reaction - one which cannot be predicted - and may have a genetic component. Changes in the liver, if they are going to occur, tend to happen within the first 6-12 weeks of therapy.

Such reactions have not been officially reported in cats, but the datasheet for Metacam does advise against giving the drug to cats with liver disease, and monitoring for symptoms of liver disease (jaundice, vomiting, lethargy etc) is recommended. Again, in patients with known liver disease, NSAIDs should be used cautiously.

*Making Metacam as safe as possible - monitoring*

In cats about to embark upon long-term Metacam therapy, and in all older cats, blood screening is recommended first. A routine blood screen will give information about the liver and kidneys, providing a baseline for monitoring any changes later on and flagging up any concerns before treatment begins. To get the most out of blood screening, urine testing is also recommended as it is impossible to assess the kidneys fully without looking at some pee - however, it can be tricky to get urine samples from cats. Your vet may be able to collect a sample by cystocentesis (gently inserting a needle into the bladder through the abdominal wall and syringing out a small urine sample) at the same time as blood collection.

Remember that finding abnormalities on examination, blood tests or urine tests does not necessarily mean that Metacam cannot be used. It may just mean things need to be done differently, so talk to your vet about any concerns you have.

A recheck visit 5-7 days after starting Metacam is recommended by the ISFM/AAFP, so that any signs of (rare) AKF can be detected. Also, a response to Metacam is expected within the first 7 days, so if your cat seems no different in terms of their pain levels by the time they visit the vet for their first check-up, alternative types of pain relief may need exploring.

For cats already on long-term Metacam therapy, regular check-ups are essential. First, vets are legally obliged to see and assess patients on long-term medication at regular intervals, so don't be surprised if your vet needs to see your cat in order to keep dispensing Metacam. Second, regular check ups are important to re-examine the cat, picking up any changes such as a new heart murmur and collecting blood +/- urine samples to check for any changes in the liver and kidneys.

For 'lower-risk' patients, a check up every 6 months is recommended. For 'higher-risk' patients (older cats, those with pre-existing CKD, heart disease, GI disease or high blood pressure, those receiving some other drugs), check-ups as often as every 2 months may be needed.

*Alternatives to Metacam - other NSAIDs*

As mentioned before, meloxicam is the only NSAID in the UK licensed for long-term use in cats. There are, however, other NSAIDs licensed as one-off injections or for shorter courses.

Carprofen (trade names Rimadyl, Carprieve; others exist but unlicensed for cats)
Rimadyl is licensed for the treatment of pain after surgery in cats, so is commonly used after neutering and other minor procedures. In dogs, a single injection lasts 24 hours but has been shown to last up to 48 hours in cats. There is no oral form available for cats and any repeat of the injection after 24-48 hours would be unlicensed. Side effects for Rimadyl are generally the same as Metacam.

Robenacoxib (trade name Onsior)
Onsior is the only COX-2 selective NSAID licensed in cats. It is available as a one-off injection to cover surgical pain, and also a small, palatable tablet. The tablets can be given for two days following an Onsior injection, or up to six days on their own. Any use of Onsior beyond six days, as a true long-term medication, is off-licence and against datasheet recommendations, but there is nothing to say that this cannot be done provided the benefits and risks have been fully considered and discussed. Being COX-2 selective, Onsior should have fewer side effects on the stomach and may be more suitable than Metacam for patients with sensitive GI tracts or those with pre-existing GI disease.

Ketoprofen (trade name Ketofen)
Ketofen can be given as a one-off injection for short-term pain or fever in cats. The tablet form can be given for up to 5 days, after which it is off-licence (similar to Onsior). Like Rimadyl, side effects will be similar to Metacam.

As you can see, meloxicam is the only NSAID available for cats as a liquid formulation, which is usually easier to give and more accurate than tablets.

*
Alternatives to Metacam - other pain relief options*

For hospitalised cats undergoing surgery or recovering from trauma etc, there are several options for pain relief without using NSAIDs; some are licensed, some are not. For severe pain, morphine-based opioids such as Comfortan (methadone) and Vetergesic (buprenorphine) come in handy, and there are other unlicensed drugs from the same family such as fentanyl, pethidine and morphine itself.

In terms of options for cats at home, recovering from surgery or with long-term painful conditions such as arthritis, NSAIDs are generally the best thing to use if possible. If this is not an option, then there are some other things that can be tried - *none are licensed, most are human medications.*

Buprenorphine (trade names Vetergesic, Buprecare)
This is a mixed opioid, similar in its effects as morphine but not as strong. It is pretty safe, with virtually no effects on the kidneys or digestive tract, but it can cause drowsiness and, in some cases at certain doses, spacing or confusion.

It can be injected, but at home it is often given transmucosally, every 8-24 hours as needed. This involves squirting a small amount into the cat's mouth - but the aim is not to get the liquid down the throat. It is absorbed through the gums and tongue, so simply getting it into the mouth wil suffice.

Long-term, Vetergesic is much more expensive than Metacam and some cats can become immune to its effects. Unlike NSAIDs, it has no anti-fever or anti-inflammatory effects and is merely a painkiller.

Tramadol
This is a human medication and, like Vetergesic, side effects can causing spacing/hallucination or sedation. Again, it has no effects on inflammation or fever and is purely a painkiller. The human form is usually a 50mg capsule, which would be too high a dose for a cat, so dosing can be tricky. Nowadays, veterinary pharmacies such as Summit produce Tramadol tablets in smaller sizes that make dosing for cats and small dogs much easier. Tramadol has been associated with an increased risk of seizures in epileptic people, and in theory this may apply to dogs and cats, but I have personally used it in epileptic dogs (with the owner's consent) and not seen any seizures.

Amantidine (trade names Lysovir, Symmetrel)
Another human one - this is a NMDA receptor antagonist - in simple terms, it works on the brain to stop pain. It is often used in dogs and cats in combination with an NSAID, but can be given on its own. Very little information is currently available regarding side effects; dosage recommendations are also anecdotal and not based on any specific studies. The Symmetrel is a syrup, which is easier for dosing cats as the capsules are pretty whopping.

Gabapentin
Human again. Gabapentin is commonly used as an anti-epileptic medication, but is also effective in many cases of neuropathic pain - its precise mode of action is unknown. Again, information regarding dosage and side effects in cats is limited.

In conclusion, I would always recommend an NSAID for the control of long-term pain in cats - including our older, arthritic ladies and gentlemen - whenever possible. As I said at the beginning, my own cat received Metacam despite being in IRIS Stage 3 CKD until his digestive issues prohibited it (he had IBD as well), when I switched to Vetergesic. Obviously, there are some cases where Metacam cannot be used, or you may decide not to.

Always speak to your vet about your concerns, and do your own research, but be wary of what sources you are looking at on the internet. I would always recommend reading through something like the ISFM/AAFP recommendations rather than unregulated sites like 'Metacam Kills' to ensure that your decisions are informed.

Here are some useful starting points:

The UK datasheet for Metacam can be viewed here:
NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Metacam 0.5*mg/ml Oral Suspension for Cats - Introduction

This PDF is the ISFM/AAFP guidelines for long-term NSAID use in cats, published in 2010:
http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/Guidelines for the Long Term Use of NSAIDS in Cats_0.pdf


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## Jellypi3

I've never used Metacam on a cat (as I don't own one yet) but did use it on my dog, she had severe gastric problem with it.

Funnily enough, our vet then prescribed Meloxidyl which I was unaware was the same thing! She seems ok on Meloxidyl! How odd!


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## GingerNinja

A work colleague has a car in hospital this weekend with severe dehydration, liver problems and suspected IBD after being prescribed metacam for a problem with a clicking jaw. I hope that the medication has not caused/worsened his condition


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## Ceiling Kitty

GingerNinja said:


> A work colleague has a car in hospital this weekend with severe dehydration, liver problems and suspected IBD after being prescribed metacam for a problem with a clicking jaw. I hope that the medication has not caused/worsened his condition


Liver problems have not been proven with Metacam in cats, though are a rare effect in humans. IBD unlikely to have been caused by Metacam.

I also hope that the treatment for the jaw has not resulted in this sad news.


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## Cazzer

As an aside one of the cats couldn't have metacam as he was on steroids so used to have vetergesic. He would have his daily dose squirted down his mouth. We learnt never to put the syringe with it it down and give him the steroid first. Another of the cats Kalle for some bizarre reason loved the vetergesic and would steal and empty the syringe!


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## moggie14

I know that Metacam is a very effective drug and can be great for dogs....

However, my previous cat Maddy was hit by a car and on cage rest and Metacam for 4 weeks...
2 years later her kidneys crashed and she had CRF for a couple of years before it took her :sad:
I have no definitive proof that Metacam caused her kidneys to fail but at 13 years old with no other health issues I personally think Metacam was the reason.
Even after CRF diagnosis a junior vet tried to prescribe her Metacam for cystitis, I wasn't having any of it 
So what I think I am trying to say is that yes, I believe Metacam is dangerous for long term use in cats from my own experience


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## GingerNinja

Shoshannah said:


> Liver problems have not been proven with Metacam in cats, though are a rare effect in humans. IBD unlikely to have been caused by Metacam.
> 
> I also hope that the treatment for the jaw has not resulted in this sad news.


I hope so too. I think that Flash probably had IBD but has suffered with severe vomiting and bloody diarrhea after two days on Metacam. I think the dehydration and liver problems are due to the vomiting, just very worrying :sad:


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## jill3

I was very worried about Archie having to take metacam last year.
The nurse was very good and explained everything to me.
So after all the explanations Archie had Metacam.

If he had been an older cat then I would have had a blood test first to see if his kidneys were alright before him having the drug.


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## Ceiling Kitty

moggie14 said:


> I know that Metacam is a very effective drug and can be great for dogs....
> 
> However, my previous cat Maddy was hit by a car and on cage rest and Metacam for 4 weeks...
> 2 years later her kidneys crashed and she had CRF for a couple of years before it took her :sad:
> I have no definitive proof that Metacam caused her kidneys to fail but at 13 years old with no other health issues I personally think Metacam was the reason.
> Even after CRF diagnosis a junior vet tried to prescribe her Metacam for cystitis, I wasn't having any of it
> So what I think I am trying to say is that yes, I believe Metacam is dangerous for long term use in cats from my own experience


That is very sad. Personally I would be very surprised if it took 2 years for the CRF to come on, but if this job teaches us anything it's that things can happen unexpectedly and take you by surprise.

Hugs xxx


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## moggie14

Thanks hun.
Perhaps I've read too many horror 'stories' on the internet.... at the time of the first crash my vet thought it was antifreeze poisoning which I suppose it could have been 
Either way I know that metacam is a highly successful drug - all I would emphasise is if there is any doubt about kidney issues to use an alternative which I insisted upon with my cat and there are other drugs, just perhaps not so good.
Thanks for the ever helpful info Shosh, there are a lot of us out here that can only speak from experience but it's so very useful to also have your vets hat on too


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## BunksMum

I wasn't happy about Bunk taking metacam when he had cystitus last year. I told the vet and she said to keep him on a very low dose. After a few days his poo started to come out black, I freaked out and then he stopped taking it. If he was in as much pain as that again, I would give him it but try to keep it to a low dose and not for more than a few days if possible.


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## havoc

> In the States, Metacam used to be licensed for dogs only and the dog version was used 'off-licence' for cats


I thought the oral version for cats used to be available (licensed) in the USA and was withdrawn. This has led to vets prescribing the dog version off license and having to work out a one third dose - the dog version being three times stronger.


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## mudgekin

I am really ambivalent about Metacam. My darling smudge was prescribed it for arthritis and it has a great effect however her next bloods showed a marked deterioration in her renal function which up till then was fine and the dose was dropped to alternate days.

This carried on for a year with her renal function deteriorating. The decision was made to carry on as it was keeping her comparitivly pain free and we decided quality over quantity should guide us.

When we had to get her pts we were devastated and we were convinced that the Metacam played a part in the rapid deterioration of crf. I hate that I may have hastened her death and that eats at me but, we tried to keep her painfree which in my mind is crucial.

The jury is out regarding Metacam now


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## Cookieandme

I have used the oral version for Cookie a couple of time, originally when she was diagnosed with gingivitis and I had the "OMG do not use" comments from FB friends across the pond.


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## Cats cats cats

My mother in law lost a cat to sudden renal failure due to metacam just before Xmas 

Despite the vet writing in Jontys notes "dehydrated , suspect renal issues " ( I've seen the notes so this is not hearsay ) he was given a metacam injection and then a second injection the next day 

The vets then proceeded to try to cover this up , suggesting to my m-i-l that Jonty must've got into something he shouldn't . The long delay (well over a week) this caused meant that aggresive fluids, which were eventually given by a different practice , were too late and he passed away 

I know it was vet error but this makes metacam on my "definitely not" list.


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## chillminx

Shoshannah, thank you for taking the time to post all that very useful and detailed information. :thumbsup: 

The subject of metacam and pain relief comes up quite often on the forum, and it would be a shame for all your helpful information to disappear into the archives after your thread falls off the end of the page (the search facility on PF not being the greatest! Therefore I wonder whether you could PM one of the Mods (e.g. Lymorelynn) and ask if your thread could be made into a 'sticky' so we can refer to it any time we need. 

Many thanks.


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## havoc

> he was given a metacam injection *and then a second injection the next day*


 I'm pretty sure that counts as an OD.


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## moggie14

I had heard that the injections were perfectly safe for *healthy *cats as a *'one off' * 
So sorry to hear about Jonty CCC - what a shock for your MIL :sad: 
If there are any doubts over renal function Metacam should be avoided, there are alternatives but vets won't generally offer them unless you ask.
I had wondered if vets get bonuses by the manufacturer because they seem very quick to prescribe it sometimes


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## Emmkad

good thread with good advice, thank you.

we are currently very frustrated with our vets:sad:


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## Ceiling Kitty

havoc said:


> I'm pretty sure that counts as an OD.


Depends on how much was given - see this bit of my post: 

_The injectable version of Metacam is licensed to be given as a one-off injection and not repeated. However, under certain circumstances (for example, if a cat is not eating or will not take the oral formulation), the injection can be repeated off-licence. Boehringer do provide guidelines for vets on this - basically any repeat injections given must be a quarter of the original dose._



moggie14 said:


> I had wondered if vets get bonuses by the manufacturer because they seem very quick to prescribe it sometimes


Ha ha I wish... the reps might give us a few pens or maybe a mousemat now and then, but I can't say it really influences my prescribing behaviour. :lol:



chillminx said:


> Therefore I wonder whether you could PM one of the Mods (e.g. Lymorelynn) and ask if your thread could be made into a 'sticky' so we can refer to it any time we need.


Am I allowed to do that? 



mudgekin said:


> I hate that I may have hastened her death and that eats at me but, we tried to keep her painfree which in my mind is crucial.


Absolutely, I would agree 100%. Obviously everyone's opinions and circumstances are different, but I would sooner see a cat live for three months pain free than six months in pain. I used Metacam in my own cat with known renal failure for his arthritis, and would do so again.

Cats cats cats - sorry to hear about your mother-in-law's cat; it sounds like an awful situation.  xxxx


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## Ceiling Kitty

havoc said:


> I thought the oral version for cats used to be available (licensed) in the USA and was withdrawn. This has led to vets prescribing the dog version off license and having to work out a one third dose - the dog version being three times stronger.


AFAIK Metacam has never been licensed in the USA for cats, but I will stand corrected if someone else knows different.


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## nightkitten

Wilbur has been on Metacam for 15 months now. He gets 4ml every other day for his arthritis. 

He loves the Metacam and waits for me to give it to him once I get the bottle out and shake it. He then happily licks it from the syringe.

The blood tests taken 2 weeks ago showed no difference to the ones he had 15 months ago (we had others in between) and therefore I will carry on giving it to him.

When we started giving it to him the vet said we need to keep a close eye on him with the Metacam as his kidney levels are borderline high but nothing has changed.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Emmkad said:


> good thread with good advice, thank you.
> 
> we are currently very frustrated with our vets:sad:


Wassup?  xxx

Have you looked into any others near you?


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## chillminx

Shoshannah said:


> Am I allowed to do that?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing hun That's usually how we acquire 'stickies' on the Boards - members have requested that threads with useful info on subjects that come up frequently are made into stickies. The mods can always say 'no' if they disagree.
Click to expand...


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## Cats cats cats

havoc said:


> I'm pretty sure that counts as an OD.


I tend to agree as it's contraindicated in cats with renal problems so to me, even one dose was gross negligence on the vets part. Jonty was only 7 years old  he wasn't even really poorly, he was just there for pre op bloods for a dental 



moggie14 said:


> I had heard that the injections were perfectly safe for *healthy *cats as a *'one off' *
> So sorry to hear about Jonty CCC - what a shock for your MIL :sad:
> If there are any doubts over renal function Metacam should be avoided, there are alternatives but vets won't generally offer them unless you ask.
> I had wondered if vets get bonuses by the manufacturer because they seem very quick to prescribe it sometimes


Thank you . It was a simply awful time  the vet has even denied suspecting Jonty had renal issues , despite having written it , by hand, in his notes 



Shoshannah said:


> Depends on how much was given - see this bit of my post:
> 
> _The injectable version of Metacam is licensed to be given as a one-off injection and not repeated. However, under certain circumstances (for example, if a cat is not eating or will not take the oral formulation), the injection can be repeated off-licence. Boehringer do provide guidelines for vets on this - basically any repeat injections given must be a quarter of the original dose._
> 
> Cats cats cats - sorry to hear about your mother-in-law's cat; it sounds like an awful situation.  xxxx


ANY dose given to a cat with one of the contraindicated conditions , should be with INFORMED consent only. This is my issue with Metacam, vets dish it out without warning owners of the risks.

Thank you for the condolences  my M-I-L has reported the vet and the RCVS are currently investigating. Of course,that won't bring Jonty back sadly but hopefully, the vet will finally apologise and admit to having made an error.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Cats cats cats said:


> ANY dose given to a cat with one of the contraindicated conditions , should be with INFORMED consent only.


Agreed.



> Thank you for the condolences  my M-I-L has reported the vet and the RCVS are currently investigating. Of course,that won't bring Jonty back sadly but hopefully, the vet will finally apologise and admit to having made an error.


I hope the outcome is positive in that it prevents any further situations like Jonty's xxx


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## Ceiling Kitty

It's 8.30pm on a Bank Holiday Monday, so what else would I be doing other than sitting with my nose in a copy of the Journal of Feline Medicine & Surgery? 










Tonight's paper is 'Risk factors for urinary tract infection with multiple drug-resistant _Escherichia coli_ in cats'.

Abstract: Risk factors for urinary tract infection with multiple drug-resistant Escherichia coli in cats

Shalt report back once I've read it.


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Risk factors for urinary tract infection with multiple drug-resistant Escherichia coli in cats*
*Hernandez et al (2014); JFMS 16(2): 75-81*

*UTIs in cats: what we already know*

UTIs are not an overly common cause of cystitis in cats. Only 2-12% of urinary disease in cats turn out to be UTIs, and the majority of these occur in older cats (over ten years of age) with something else going on, such as CKD, hyperthyroidism or diabetes.

The most common bacterium involved in feline UTIs is _E. coli_, a normal inhabitant of the gut. Most strains of _E. coli_ are quite susceptible to antibiotics, and thus easily treated, but there is growing concern over the emergence of strains that are resistant to lots of them. These are called multi drug-resistant (MDR) bacteria.

*Study method*

This paper looked at cats who presented to the authors' French veterinary hospital between 2010 and 2012. They dug up the records of all cats diagnosed with an _E. coli_ UTI in that time and looked at them in more detail, recording and analysing their full urine results, general health and antibiotic treatments etc.

*What they found - UTIs in general*

61 cats were diagnosed with _E. coli_ UTIs between 2010 and 2012, but they only used records from 52 of them because the other 9 were incomplete. So, overall, we're looking at data based on 52 cats.

The average age of the cats was 9.8 years, which fits with what we know about UTIs being more common in older cats. Roughly 40% were female and 60% were male.

It is interesting to note that only 60% of the cats actually presented with symptoms of cystitis. The remaining 40% presented for something completely different, and the UTI was only diagnosed by coincidence. This goes to show how many UTIs can be 'silent' in cats - you have to look for them to find them!

Predictably, more than 90% of the cats with UTIs had another disease going on. Again, this fits with what we already know. This was generally CKD, cancer or hyperthyroidism. Cats who had a previous history of urethral obstruction (being 'blocked') also featured.

*What they found - antibiotic-resistant UTIs*

The cats were sorted into two groups depending on their urine culture results: those with MDR _E. coli_ (10 cats) and those with non-MDR _E. coli_ (42 cats).

The age, sex and presenting signs of the cats were no different whether they had an MDR infection or not, so you really would need to do the full culture and antibiotic sensitivity testing to know. Not all of the cats were tested for FIV/FeLV, but the one FIV positive cat in the study happened to be in the MDR group - I guess more research would be needed to know if this was significant.

It was the antibiotics previously given to the cats that seemed to influence whether or not they had an MDR infection or a 'regular' infection. The number of different antibiotics the cats had received prior to the diagnosis did impact on whether or not their infections were MDR: the more antibiotics the cat had received, the greater the chance of their UTI being MDR. This makes sense, as use of multiple different antibiotics can kill off the weaker strains of bacteria and leave the resistant ones.

They found that most of the MDR _E. coli_ strains were resistant to penicillins (eg Synulox, Noroclav), cephalosporins (eg Convenia, Ceporex) and fluoroquinolones (eg Marbocyl, Baytril). It is unsurprising that these same drugs were the ones most commonly used in the cats prior to their diagnosis with MDR _E. coli_!

The authors noted that information regarding the dose and duration of treatment was not known in enough cases to make a fair conclusion, so further work would be needed here. Certainly, if the drugs were used at too low a dose or for too short a period, it could encourage resistance.

Finally, they found that being in hospital made little difference: the proportion of cats who picked up their UTI while hospitalised was the same whether their infection was MDR or not. So being hospitalised didn't put them at risk of a 'nastier' infection than if they were at home, which is good news. However, the authors did say further research with a larger number of cats is needed to confirm this finding.

*What this means for us and our cats*

This study confirmed what we knew about feline UTIs in general, but the big concern is the emergence of MDR bacterial strains. Infections that are resistant to lots of antibiotics can be difficult to treat, and this has major implications for both human and veterinary medicine in the future. The last thing we want is resistant bugs knocking about!

These findings highlight the importance of urine culture and antibiotic sensitivity testing in cats either showing signs of cystitis, or those who we know are at risk of UTI (for example, those with CKD). This is especially important if they've had antibiotics within the last 3 months, as this study suggests these guys are more at risk of having an MDR infection and we need to make sure we're using the correct antibiotic to avoid further problems.

We also don't want to use antibiotics where they are not warranted; not every cat with cystitis needs them, nor should they get them (only 2-12% of cats with bladder problems have UTIs, remember?). In an ideal world, only cats with a positive urine culture should receive antibiotics - at a push, only those at risk (older cats, those with known CKD etc) could be considered candidates for antibiotic treatment.

The onus is on vets to prescribe an adequate dose of antibiotics for an adequate timeframe, and the onus is on owners to complete the course (and to tell their vet if they're struggling to give the medication, so that help can be given). The onus is, of course, on the cats to actually take their meds.  All of these measures can potentially decrease the chances of a resistant strain emerging.

This study was limited by the smallish number of cats looked at, and by the fact that they were merely looking back through records rather than carrying out ongoing research. The authors acknowledged this.

However, it does provide some good food for thought regarding the careful use of antibiotics in our cats with pee problems. We need to protect our antibiotics carefully. New antibiotics are not being developed rapidly, and once the ones we have are useless, we're stuck.


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## chillminx

Thank you so much Shoshannah. Another very helpful, interesting & informative post from you - brilliant:thumbup1: 

It is another topic that would be sooooo useful to have as a 'sticky':thumbup1:
Would you feel like asking the mods again?


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## Ceiling Kitty

chillminx said:


> Thank you so much Shoshannah. Another very helpful, interesting & informative post from you - brilliant:thumbup1:
> 
> It is another topic that would be sooooo useful to have as a 'sticky':thumbup1:
> Would you feel like asking the mods again?


 But do you reeeally think this would be useful in the long-term? :001_huh:


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## chillminx

Shoshannah said:


> But do you reeeally think this would be useful in the long-term? :001_huh:


Well, I was thinking it definitely would be useful long term as part of a sticky on feline cystitis. So there would be the research you just quoted, as well as info on non-UTI possible causes of cystitis, including a mention of idiopathic cystitis. Plus treatments that may help.

Atm we have no stickies about feline urinary disease, and it is a complaint that comes up all the time on this forum.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Oks, well I shall ask.


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## jessdarcy

Superb video. I really like the sticky idea Thanks for the video


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## catfan

I'm pretty sure metacam killed my cat. I am in the UK. He had bloodwork showing his kidneys were fine not long before starting taking it. He had a recommended daily dose for a year and 3 months and then got severe kidney failure. He was just 10. I was utterly, utterly heart broken. I had asked the vet after he'd been on it for 6 months whether he should be having a blood test but the vet said 'oh no he's fine'. It was a complicated condition which led to him being on the metacam in the first place (although I don't won't to go into it here but it wasn't any of the contraindicated conditions mentioned above) - I'm not sure what the alternative could have been. but it is horrible thinking that you poisoned your cat to death. 

I never raised the issue with the vets afterwards. I was too upset. It wouldn't have been his existing condition which led to kidney failure. I hope they noted what happened though.

But I'd be very wary of having a cat on it long term. It may be fine short term but having had my experience I don't think I could let Mog (my current cat) have it even on that basis. It took me over two years after my lovely big O died before I could think about getting another cat.


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## catfan

In the two/three weeks before he died he was not himself at times and vomiting. Although he was extremely good at covering pain specially at the vets. I took him into the vets a few times - they just thought maybe he'd eaten something dodgy outside and seemed fine otherwise. They didn't decide to take any blood til the day before he died. Which showed terrible levels of kidney failure. But it was too late anyway and the day after it was taken he was so obviously terribly poorly and had to be put to sleep.


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## havoc

> I'm not sure what the alternative could have been. but it is horrible thinking that you poisoned your cat to death.


Please don't burden yourself with guilt. The alternative _could_ have been your cat living a while longer in pain. It is heartbreaking losing a much loved pet, it's something we all have to go through and the grief is immense and overpowering. When we have an elderly or terminally ill relative on the inevitable road to the end we would always agree to less time pain free. For some reason we don't accept with our animals that all drugs have a level of risk and there is a benefit vs risk decision.


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## catfan

Thank you.


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## maisiecat

I was also frustrated with one of ours. I chose it because it was one of the closest so as to reduce travelling time and stress in the car, because 2 of the vets had a special interest in cardiology and because I thought it was the kind of practice where we would see the same vet each time.

It turns out that in 4 visits we have seen 3 different vets. I was not over impressed although quite liked the first one we saw, the second one didn't seem to be on the website so am thinking was a student or trainee, we weren't told.

I was initially pleased when I found out which one we were seeing next, thinking it would be good but we had no chance to speak or ask questions, couldn't get a word in. Same when I got results over the phone, it was awful. I wanted to ask things but was pressurised into making an appointment to have sedation and pretty much every test ever heard of which I resisted. In addition to this, they open at 9.00 so no early appts. or dropping off before work, the close at lunch and they only do afternoons on the late night they are open. This is no use to me. They refer you to the other branch/hospital for certain procedures and other times which is the same drive as going to our other vet. So - pointless.

I was happy with the other vet we use, it was just the OOH cover that concerned me, but it turns out that it is only at weekends and the rest of the time they cover it themsleves. So, I have transferred my boy there too and am very impressed so far. I have a vet that takes time to explain, listens and discusses. They open earlier, and have 3 late nights and are open at weekends.

I would say, you can't know what kind of vet you will get even with research as you can't meet them all and see how they work but I have used one for a year and one since September and my uneasiness with the second one was justified. The first one is a cat friendly clinic. And what was really nice - even at the beginning they didn't know us (although had seen our records I suppose, from the previous vet) we weren't asked to pay and never have been asked.


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## Ceiling Kitty

I thought it might be helpful to put up some regular posts on common toxins in cats. I know that for many of you it will be old hat, but we do get some throughput on here from worried slaves who might find this useful. 

If such a thread saves just one cat's life, I will be happy. 

First, some general advice:

*If you suspect your cat has been poisoned...*

First thing: *call your vet*. If it's the weekend or the middle of the night, call them anyway. They will have an emergency number, and it's far better to speak to them and find out whether or not it can wait until the morning, than wait anyway and risk lasting damage - or worse.

Depending on what your cat has had and how much, the vet may ask to see them. If you know what your cat has consumed, take some of it with you to the vet - samples of plants, packaging from medications or rat poisons etc.

*Swallowed toxins*

For ingested toxins, your vet may induce vomiting using an injectable medication (xylazine; trade names Rompun, Xylapan). This drug is a sedative, so it may make your cat sleepy.

The induction of vomiting is generally only helpful if the toxin has been consumed within the last few hours and is still in the stomach. There are some cases in which vomiting must NOT be induced, for example if a caustic substance such as bleach has been ingested, because the toxin will do as much harm coming up as it did going down. Nobody wants a perforated oesophagus to add to the list of problems.

*Never* induce vomiting at home without the express instruction of your vet.

*Toxins on the skin or coat*

For toxins on the coat or skin, you must stop your cat from licking or grooming. Remove their collar in case that too has been contaminated, but if you have a lampshade collar lying around, pop it on them.

In some cases your cat will need washing. The vet may need to do this - ask them when you ring them whether they want you to wash your cat first or come straight down. Sometimes washing can increase the absorption of certain toxins, so it's best to check first if you are not sure.

If you are washing your cat at home use warm, plain, soapy water - don't be tempted to put any antiseptics or other chemicals or you could make things worse. Sometimes, for example in the case of plant pollens, use scissors to clip away fur carefully; this avoids spreading it around.

*Further information*

Most veterinary practices have access to VPI (Veterinary Poisons Information), a telephone helpline service that is open 24/7. This service is only available to vets and the practice is charged for the subscription, so if your vet has to call them then expect to be charged. The vet will often use these guys for less common toxins in which the effects or toxic doses are not well known, or if your cat is a special case.

iCatCare are a good source of reliable information on anything cat related. Their information on poisoning can be found by following the link below:

Cats and poisons | international cat care

*Thread contents:*
Lilies - post #2 - http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-heal...astic-common-poisons-cats.html#post1063702502
Permethrin (dog spot-ons) - post #9 - http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-heal...astic-common-poisons-cats.html#post1063702941
Antifreeze - post #13 - http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-heal...astic-common-poisons-cats.html#post1063703571
Paracetamol - post #15 - http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-heal...astic-common-poisons-cats.html#post1063704014

*Please note: the advice in this thread is not a substitute for a proper consultation with a vet and is only intended as a guide. Please contact your local veterinary practice for advice or treatment immediately if you are worried about your pets health - even if they are closed, they will always have an out of hours service available.*


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Lilies*


*What should I do?

Call the vet, ASAP. This one can't wait until the morning, even if your cat seems fine. The sooner the cat is on a drip to flush the kidneys through, the greater the chance of survival.

If your cat has pollen on their coat, make sure they do not ingest any. Clip it off with scissors (this works better than washing - you know how badly lily pollen can stain) and, if you have one, fit a lampshade collar around your cat's neck before you take them to the vet.*

More detailed information about lily poisoning:

*Which lilies are poisonous?*
_Lilium_ and _Hermerocallis_ (day) lilies are toxic. These include, but are not limited to:

*Easter lilies ARE toxic - they cause acute renal failure!*









*Tiger lilies ARE toxic - they cause acute renal failure!*









*Stargazer lilies ARE toxic - they cause acute renal failure!*









There are some species of 'lily' that are not harmful to cats. For example:

Peace lilies are NOT toxic to cats, they are pretty harmless. Large amounts can cause tummy upsets if eaten.









Peruvian lilies are NOT toxic to cats, they are pretty harmless. Large amounts can cause tummy upsets if eaten.









The following types of lily do not cause renal failure, but can be harmful in their own ways. I will write more about them in another post. For example:

Calla lilies ARE toxic to cats - they won't harm the kidneys, but they contain calcium oxalate crystals that can burn the tongue and mouth.









Lily of the valley ARE toxic to cats - they won't harm the kidneys, but they can damage the heart.









If in doubt, it's probably best that you don't display the flowers in your home or garden, where cats could come into contact with them.

*Which parts of the lily are poisonous?*

*All parts of the lily are toxic*, including the stem, leaves, petals and pollen. Some cats like to chew on plants in the house or garden, and are clearly at risk if they bite into or consume any part of a lily plant. More commonly, cats brush past the flowers and get the pollen on their coats; when they groom it off they ingest the pollen and become poisoned this way. Only a small amount of pollen can be lethal, and as little as two leaves or a small part of the flower have been recorded as fatal as well.

The exact 'toxic dose' is unknown, but it is safe to say that any amount is potentially dangerous, so veterinary attention should always be sought immediately.

*What happens if my cat eats a lily?*

Lilies cause acute renal failure in cats - basically, they cause the kidneys to shut down. The mechanism of toxicity is not known, but untreated exposure is fatal within a matter of days. The toxin, whatever exactly it is, is absorbed rapidly and targets the renal tubular epithelium - ie the lining of the tiny tubules inside the kidney. Once these are destroyed, the kidneys cannot function properly. All the waste products of the body that are normally excreted by the kidney back up into the bloodstream, causing illness and death.

Affected cats become unwell - they stop eating, they vomit and they might drool. They are very lethargic. At first they become very thirsty and urinate large amounts (polyuric renal failure), but as the kidney failure progresses they shut down completely and no urine is produced (oliguric or anuric renal failure).

Here is healthy kidney tissue under the microscope - you can see all of the renal tubules looking pretty happy:









And here is a kidney subjected to an acute injury, such as that inflicted by lily toxicity:









*What is the treatment?*

There is nothing we can do to repair the kidneys, but if they were healthy beforehand they have a good chance of repairing themselves. Our job is to support them while they do so, giving them a chance of recovery.

If ingestion occurred within the last few hours, *vomiting may be induced* to remove any plant material from the stomach. In some cases, the stomach may also be flushed out under sedation.

Pollen on the fur can be difficult to remove - it stains. Your cat may need to be *shaved* to remove the stained fur and eliminate the risk of further ingestion by grooming.










Your vet will probably take *bloods* when they connect your cat to a drip, to see if there is any azotaemia (elevation in blood urea and creatinine) and to check for elevated phosphorus levels. These are all signs of renal injury. If you have caught it early and the bloods are normal, the figures will act as baseline for any repeat checks after treatment has been completed. A *urine test* may also be analysed to see how concentrated it is (dilute urine is another sign of renal failure).

Your cat will need to be on a *drip for at least 48 hours*, and this will require 24 hour hospitalisation. If they are showing symptoms of acute renal failure, they will be treated with symptomatic medications to help them feel better. Antacids such as Zantac or anti-sickness drugs such as Cerenia can help reduce nausea and get them eating if they have been vomiting or not eating.

Your vet will probably want to repeat the blood test just before your cat comes off the drip, to check that the bloods are still normal or have returned to normal. If they are okay and your cat is well in themselves, they have an excellent prognosis.

Unfortunately, despite our best efforts, most severely affected cats or those presented late (more than 24 hours after ingestion) will not make it. *Euthanasia* is often the kindest option in these cases, to prevent further suffering. 

*What is the prognosis?*

Fatality rates can be as high as 100%.

Cats whose bloods are already showing signs of renal failure when they are admitted have less chance of survival than those whose bloods are still normal.

If fluid therapy is commenced before the cat reaches the anuric stage (ie, if they are still peeing) the prognosis for recovery is excellent. Cats that recover completely are normal and should not have any long-lasting damage, although a few cases can.

Once urination stops, the prognosis becomes guarded. Therefore, the longer the interval between toxin ingestion and the commencement of fluid therapy, the worse the prognosis. Untreated cats will die.

Cats with pre-existing kidney disease, such as those in chronic renal failure, will sadly have a poorer prognosis as the lily toxin will hit their kidneys so much harder.

*
How can I prevent lily toxicity in my cats?*

The best way to prevent toxicity is by not keeping toxic lily species in your house if you have cats. Research your ornamental plant and flower choices before buying them, to see if they are safe for cats. A list is available here: Non-Toxic Plants

If you receive lilies as gift, you could consider displaying them elsewhere - maybe take them to brighten up your workplace, or pass them onto a catless friend? Alternatively, display them in a room that the cats definitely cannot access, even if it is just temporary. Always take care when handling and disposing of lilies as the pollen and petals can drop everywhere when they are carried!


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## CoCoTrio

Sticky!!! :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:


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## Charity

Brilliant. Not enough people know about this or realise how serious it is.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Charity said:


> Brilliant. Not enough people know about this or realise how serious it is.


Yeah, like this. I stumbled across it while looking for lily photos and felt a little sick when I read it... 

Removing Lily Pollen Stains: cat fur lily stain (All Things Plants)


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## GingerNinja

CoCoTrio said:


> Sticky!!! :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:


Totally agree. I'm sure there are many out there that do not know the seriousness of the toxins in lilies (me included )


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## peecee

I never have lilies in the house anymore, but I it has been useful for me as I was under the impression that Calla, Peace and Lily of the valley were ok for cats. Thanks for a very useful post. I'll throw out the lily of the valley I was planning on planting.


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## sarahecp

Thanks for posting this Shosh   

Since having cats I don't have any flowers or plants in the house, I'd rather be on the safe side.


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Permethrin (dog spot-on treatments)*


*What should I do?

Call the vet, ASAP. This one can't wait until the morning, even if your cat seems fine. Symptoms can take several hours to begin, so don't wait until it's too late. Look out for twitching or tremors.

Wash the cat in lukewarm water and soap, to remove the spot-on. It is very important that the water is lukewarm only! Dry them in a towel and keep them warm.

Transport them to a vet as soon as possible. If your vet tells you to bring the cat down without washing them first, do as they suggest.*

More detailed information about permethrin poisoning:

*What is permethrin?*

Permethrin is a *synthetic pyrethroid*. These are insecticides found in a number of flea and tick products, usually spot-on treatments intended for use in dogs. While dogs tolerate pyrethroids quite well, they are extremely toxic to cats in certain doses.

Naturally extracted from Chrysanthemums, pyrethroids are neurotoxins that kill fleas, flies and other insects by binding to sodium channels in nerve cells and causing them to fire repetitively and persistently. In insects, this causes paralysis and death.

When applied in a spot-on, permethrin is absorbed into the bloodstream through the skin. It can also be absorbed by ingestion (if the cat licks a treated dog, for example) or, in some cases, by inhaling the vapour. This is particuarly important in the case of sprays.

*Which products contain permethrin?*

Synthetic pyrethroids such as permethrin and deltamethrin are found in many products. The list that follows covers most of the ones currently available in the UK. As you can see, most of them are OTC these days (veterinary products have largely moved away from them). Please read the ingredients in anything before you apply it to your cat, and check the packaging carefully for logos such as these - and pay attention to them:



















Prescription-only (POM-V) products:
Advantix (spot-on for dogs)
Activyl Plus (spot-on for dogs)

Over-the-counter products:
Armitage Pet Care Flea and Tick Drops for Dogs 702mg Spot-on
Beaphar Dog Flea and Tick Drops, 65% w/w
Bob Martin Dog Spot On Solution 744mg
Bob Martin Dog Spot On Solution 1488mg
Bob Martin Flea and Tick Spot On Solution 744mg
Bob Martin Permethrin Dog Spot On Exspot Insecticide for Dogs
Easi-drop Flea and Tick drops for Dogs 742 mg 
Johnson's Flea and Tick Drops 742mg for Puppies and Small Dogs, 
Johnson's Insecticidal Flea and Tick Drops 742mg
Wilko Dog Flea Drops 65% w/w

Shampoos and sprays
Beaphar Insecticidal Dog Shampoo
Bob Martin Permethrin Flea Shampoo for Dogs
Canovel Insecticidal Flea and Tick Shampoo and Conditioner for Dogs
Johnsons 4 fleas Shampoo for Dogs
Vetzyme Insecticidal Dog Shampoo
Canovel Long Acting Flea and Tick Cutaneous Spray Solution
Defendog Cutaneous Spray Solution
Duowin Cutaneous spray for dogs

Collars
Scalibor collar (for dogs)

*What about cat flea collars?*
There are indeed a number of OTC cat flea collars that contain permethrin in low doses. While the amounts of permethrin in these products are supposed to be safe, I would still recommend avoiding them. There are much safer and more effective flea products available for cats that you can use instead.

Examples include:
Johnson's Felt Cat Flea collar
Wilko Cat Felt Flea Collar
Armitage Pet Care Felt Flea Collar for cats
Beaphar Soft Cat Flea Collar
Bob Martin Catwalk Fashion Flea Collar for cats
Canac Soft Flea Collar for Cats

*How could my cat be exposed to permethrin?*

Cats may be exposed to permethrin if their owner applies a dog spot-on, shampoo or spray such as those listed above, or if they lick the fur of a treated dog after application. It could also happen if the cat is nearby when a dog is sprayed with something containing permethrin, as they could inhale it.

*What happens if my cat is exposed to permethrin?*

The symptoms of toxicity in cats are *neurological* - permethrin has the same effect on the nerve cells of cats as it does on insects. It can affect nerves in the body (peripheral nervous system), but also the brain and spinal cord (central nervous system).

Symptoms are:
*Tremors or twitching*
Hyperaesthesia - this is an exaggerated response to touch
*Seizures*
Discoordination - the cat may look like they are drunk
Drooling
Blindness, or very dilated pupils

This little love is suffering with permethrin toxicity. The text is in Dutch, but the video clips can be seen at 0:40 seconds in and 1:30 seconds in. *WARNING* - some viewers may find the video a bit upsetting.

[youtube_browser]lomlOHxDojo[/youtube_browser]

Symptoms usually occur *within minutes or hours of exposure*, but in some cases they may be delayed for up to 72 hours. Mild signs consist of a bit of twitching, flicking the paws or trembling ears. More severe signs progress to seizures and, in up to 40% of cases, death.

*What is the treatment?*

The product should be removed from the coat as soon as possible, bearing in mind that it is soon absorbed into the body. The coat should be *washed* with *lukewarm* water and soap. Very warm water can enhance the absorption of the drug through the skin, but you also need to *make sure the cat is kept warm*, because hypothermia can worsen the symptoms. Dry the cat in a towel and wrap them in it to transport them to the vet.

Once emergency decontamination has been carried out, either at the veterinary surgery or at home under the vet's instruction, treatment is supportive. There is *no antidote* for permethrin poisoning - we just have to treat the signs and hope they come through it.

Normally, seizures in cats are treated with diazepam (Valium). Your vet may try this first, but in many cases it has been shown not to be very effective against permethrin poisoning. Your vet may have to anaesthetise your cat with a drug called *propofol*, or use a drug called phenobarbitone, in order to stop the seizures.

*Supportive care*, such as keeping the cat warm and connecting them to a drip, are important to help them recover, so your cat will most likely have to be hospitalised for a while. Recovery usually takes 2-3 days. You need to be prepared for a significant cost.

Lipid infusions (administration of a fatty solution via a drip) have been shown to help in some cases, but their use is not yet widespread and hopefully they are something that can be developed further in the future.

*What is the prognosis?*

Death has been reported in up to 40% of cases. Cats who are severely affected (ie seizuring), are presented for treatment late or whose seizures cannot be controlled (leading to irreversible brain damage) are all more likely to succumb. In some cases, euthanasia may be kinder.

However, for cats who are treated early and aggressively the prognosis remains good for survival, even if they are quite badly affected. Cats with mild symptoms have an excellent prognosis with treatment.

*How can I prevent permethrin toxicity in my cats?*

Don't apply dog spot-ons or sprays to your cat! Check the ingredients of any products for permethrin or deltamethrin, and always examine the packaging carefully for any warnings that they should not be given to cats.

Some flea products that are *safe for cats* include:
- fipronil (Frontline, Effipro, Fiprospot, Broadline)
- Advocate and Advantage
- Activyl (CAT version, not Activyl Plus)
- Stronghold
- Seresto collar - contains flumethrin and has been subject to rigorous safety tests in cats, but be advised that flumethrin IS a pyrethroid

If you have cats, it is probably best to avoid using permethrin products for your dogs, just in case your cats are exposed. If you do use them, make sure your cat cannot come into contact with or groom your dog until the spot-on is completely dry on your dog's coat.

*Further information *

There is some excellent information on the iCatCare site:
Permethrin poisoning in cats | international cat care

And here you can sign their petition which aims to improve the regulation of OTC permethrin products on sale:
Online petition | international cat care


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## Gwen9244

Thanks for this. I never have flowers in the house now and have also reassessed what plants will be going in the garden.

This definitely needs to be a sticky!


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## Aeth

Shoshannah said:


> There are some species of 'lily' that are not harmful to cats. For example:
> 
> Peace lilies are NOT toxic to cats, they are pretty harmless. Large amounts can cause tummy upsets if eaten.


I have a beloved peace lily which I put out of reach when River arrived. Thing is, a windowless bathroom isn't the best place for any kind of plant! After reading this, I decided to give it a try in the living room again, because if she didn't pay any attention to it then there was no risk.

Trouble is, as soon as I popped it back on the shelf... there she is, batting at the leaves! So we're up on top of the tall bookcase for now, hoping there can be a bit of compromise! Even if it's not serious if she does eat any, I still don't want to chance it!


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## Ceiling Kitty

Aeth said:


> I have a beloved peace lily which I put out of reach when River arrived. Thing is, a windowless bathroom isn't the best place for any kind of plant! After reading this, I decided to give it a try in the living room again, because if she didn't pay any attention to it then there was no risk.
> 
> Trouble is, as soon as I popped it back on the shelf... there she is, batting at the leaves! So we're up on top of the tall bookcase for now, hoping there can be a bit of compromise! Even if it's not serious if she does eat any, I still don't want to chance it!


Aw! Probably best to be on the safe side if she seems determined to eat it! 

I love peace lilies.  Nothing grows in my house, it's badly positioned and very dark throughout the day.  I have resorted to several pots of good fake plants and fresh flowers (lily-free of course).


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Antifreeze*


*What should I do?

Call the vet, ASAP. This one can't wait until the morning, even if your cat seems fine.

If your cat has antifreeze on their coat or paws, wash them in warm, soapy water and make sure they do not groom themselves.

No home remedies are available - you really need to get to a vet as soon as possible.*

More detailed information about antifreeze poisoning:

*What's in antifreeze?*

The concerning substance in antifreeze is *ethylene glycol* (also known as ethanediol). Eythlene glycol itself isn't poisonous, but once consumed it is metabolised by the liver and broken down into highly toxic compounds.

*How might my cat be exposed to ethylene glycol?*

Ethylene glycol is a common ingredient of antifreeze, but can also be found in screenwash, de-icers and brake fluid. Unfortunately it has a sweet, syrupy taste that can be attractive to pets (and children, for that matter), so cats may lick at it if they come across some on their patrol.

If cats *get antifreeze on their coat or paws*, they will groom it off and be exposed this way. As cats are usually not that fussed about sweet tastes, this is probably a more likely route of exposure than licking it directly off the pavement.

Exposure can occur at any time, but seems to be more common in the winter when use of screenwash and de-icer increases, and when home mechanics are changing the coolant on their cars.

Sadly, we do hear reports of malicious poisonings in which cats have deliberately been exposed to antifreeze.  

*What happens if my cat consumes antifreeze?*

*Only a small dose is potentially lethal.* Just a few millilitres are enough to kill a cat. The toxic metabolites of ethylene glycol cause *acute renal failure* (ARF) and severe *metabolic acidosis* (ie they make the blood acidic, which can cause all sorts of complications).

The first thing that happens if your cat consumes antifreeze is that they will get 'drunk'. Ethylene glycol has the same effect on the brain as alcohol. The renal and metabolic effects develop 12-24 hours later.

One of the toxic metabolites of antifreeze is calcium oxalate. This is passed into the urine, but en route it forms crystals in the tiny tubules of the kidney and causes severe damage or destruction of the tissue. This results in ARF - all the waste products of the body that are normally excreted by the kidney instead back up into the bloodstream, causing illness and death.

Happy healthy kidney tissue under the microscope - you can see all the tubules:









A kidney poisoned by antifreeze - the tubules are looking pretty unwell:









*What are the symptoms of antifreeze poisoning?*

The symptoms of antifreeze poisoning can be split into two stages. Some sources also list three stages, but as stages 2 and 3 often occur together I've stuck to two here, for simplicity's sake.

Stage 1 - 30 minutes to 12 hours after exposure
- cats appear *'drunk'*.
- they are discoordinated, weak and may vomit.
- they might struggle to stand or walk.
- in severe cases, they may suffer convulsions.

*IMPORTANT:* after Stage 1, things may appear to go back to normal. But you should still contact your vet, because Stage 2 can take up to a day to develop. You might miss Stage 1 in outdoor cats as they might return home normal.

Stage 2 - 12-24 hours after exposure
- signs of *acute renal failure* set in.
- cats are thirsty and may urinate large amounts.
- they seem unwell: lethargic, off their food, vomiting.
- they gradually become more and more depressed and may fall unconscious.
- some cats have breathing difficulites due to the development of pulmonary oedema (fluid in the chest) - look for heavy breathing, open-mouth breathing.

*What is the treatment?*

If you suspect that your cat may have ingested antifreeze, they need to see a vet ASAP. Time is of the essence, so don't wait until the morning - the sooner treatment is started, the better the chances of survival.

If there is antifreeze on your cat's coat or paws, *wash* them with warm, soapy water. It is imperative that you stop your cat from trying to groom themselves - if you have a lampshade collar lying around then it's probably best to pop it on.

When the vet examines your cat, they may find that their kidneys are abnormally *large or are painful* when gently squeezed. This is not specific for antifreeze but can suggest ARF. Your vet will take *bloods* to look for azotaemia (elevated urea and creatinine) and elevated phosphorus levels, both of which point to kidney failure. In cases of ARF due to antifreeze poisoning, these levels can be scarily high, so be prepared. If your practice has a blood-gas machine, they will likely also run bloods to check for acidosis; not all practices have this specialist equipment.

*Urine microscopy* can also be helpful in diagnosing ARF due to antifreeze poisoning. The presence of monohydrate calcium oxalate crystals in the urine are specific for antifreeze poisoning.

Monohydrate calcium oxalate crystals in urine, as seen under the microscope. They look a bit like picket fence posts.









Your cat will need to be *hospitalised and placed on a drip* for at least 48 hours. Hospital stays can incur a significant cost, which you'll need to be prepared for. Your cat may need specific additives in their drip as well, such as bicarbonate, if they are suffering from acidosis. Symptomatic medications to treat nausea, such as *Zantac* or Cerenia, are also helpful to make cats feel better and get them eating.

*Ethanol* (ie neat alcohol) is an antidote for antifreeze poisoning but it has to be given very soon after exposure. It works by competing with ethylene glycol in the liver, saturating the pathways so that the liver ends up breaking down the ethanol instead of the ethylene glycol. Because most cases of antifreeze poisoning present late, ethanol is usually not helpful; it should certainly never be given to a cat already in ARF.

If your cat does well, your vet will most likely want to repeat bloods around 48 hours after starting treatment. You are looking for a significant decrease in the urea, creatinine and phosphorus levels that indicate repair and recovery of the kidneys.

Sadly, despite our best efforts, some cats don't make it. For those that are severely affected, euthanasia is often the kindest option.

*What is the prognosis?*

Antifreeze poisoning is *nasty*, and sadly many cats don't make it.  For cats presented early, the prognosis is still guarded, and once ARF develops it is poor. With this in mind, do not feel guilty if you choose to let your cat go.

Cats that do make a recovery are usually cured, but some have lasting renal damage that can potentially shorten their lifespan. Supportive care may be needed for several weeks after exposure.

*How can I prevent antifreeze toxicity in my cats?*

Take care with antifreeze and other related motoring products. If you are using them on your car, try not to splash them about everywhere and dispose of them carefully. Don't tip them over the drive, and clean up spills quickly. Be aware of what your neighbours are doing as well - speak to them about it if you can. If you or a neighbour are working on the car - *keep the cats inside!*

Check your vehicle regularly for coolant, screenwash or brake fluid leaks (good advice generally, not just for cats)!

Washing your cat's paws when they come indoors may help, but of course won't make a difference if they've already been grooming outside.

There are products available that do not contain eythlene glycol. Instead they contain propylene glycol, which is much less toxic and generally lacks the sweet taste.

Silkolene is such a brand, available from retailers such as OPIE Oils:
Silkolene PRO COOL Advanced All Season Reduced Toxicity Engine Coolant 1 Litre


----------



## Charity

RIP Fleas Extra, which my vet sold me a couple of weeks ago for spraying carpets, floors etc. also contains permethrin and can affect humans as well as animals so I'm not using it.


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Paracetamol*


*What should I do?

Call the vet, ASAP. This one can't wait until the morning, even if your cat seems fine.

Even a small dose of paracetamol can be fatal to cats, so if your cat has ingested some or you are worried that they have, don't wait.*

More detailed information about paracetamol poisoning:

*What's so bad about paracetamol?*

Paracetamol (also known as acetaminophen, for example in the States) is a common OTC drug in human medicine, but it is *lethal in cats*. And I mean: deadly. Half a 500mg tablet is enough to kill. The BSAVA Drug Formulary has a big ole' 'DO NOT USE' next to the word 'cat'.










In most species, including humans, paracetamol is metabolised in the liver to a variety of different compounds - this occurs via three different metabolic pathways:
- glucuronidation - produces harmless compunds
- sulphation - produces harmless compounds
- oxidation - produces a harmful compound called *NAPQI* (don't ask me what it stands for, I have no clue - I just know it's dangerous)

The trouble with cats is that their livers are pretty lousy at glucuronidation, full stop. Therefore, most drugs you give them are metabolised via the sulphation and oxidation pathways. This doesn't usually cause a problem, but if you give them something like paracetamol, their sulphation pathway quickly gets overwhelmed and their oxidation pathway will produce loads of NAPQI. This doesn't happen in people unless they overdose on paracetamol, but cats are more susceptible and only a small dose will be toxic.

*What does paracetamol actually do to cats?*

NAPQI is a toxic compound which causes severe damage to hepatic cells, resulting in *liver failure*. At high doses it can also damage the kidney tubules, resulting in *renal failure* as well.

More commonly in cats, paracetamol can also cause *methaemoglobinaemia*. This is a condition in which haemoglobin (the molecule in red blood cells that carries oxygen around the body) is converted into methaemoglobin, a form that is useless for carrying oxygen. It also damages the red blood cells.

*What are the symptoms of paracetamol poisoning?*

Symptoms of paracetamol poisoning begin within 4-12 hours of ingestion.

They include:
- *brown, muddy-coloured gums* (due to the pigment of methaemoglobin in the bloodstream) OR *bluey-purple gums* (due to lack of oxygen).
- *breathing changes* - rapid or laboured breathing, open-mouth breathing.
- cats are lethargic and weak, with little energy.
- paws and face may become oedematous (swollen).
- signs of liver failure may also be seen - jaundice (yellow gums and skin), vomiting and increased thirst.
- death can occur if untreated.

Cyanotic gums are bluey-purple and indicate lack of oxygen:









*What is the treatment?*

Veterinary attention is needed immediately.

If the paracetamol was swallowed within the last few hours, vomiting may be induced with a xylazine (see first post in thread), but this won't be helpful for cases presented later. Sometimes the stomach is washed out under sedation as well.

If your cat is in respiratory distress, they may need *oxygen*. In some cases the vet will place your cat into a oxygen cage until their breathing is more stable before handling them, as too much stress can tip a cat with breathing difficulties over the edge. Everybody needs to be patient while the cat stabilises.

Your vet will probably want to take *bloods* to check for signs of liver or renal failure. It is common for the liver parameters (ALP, ALT, GGT and bilirubin) to be elevated on the bloods - expect this.

The aims of treatment are to convert useless methaemoglobin back into useful haemoglobin (thus improving blood oxygen levels and hopefully stabilising breathing), and to treat/prevent liver damage. Your cat will need to be admitted to the hospital for supportive care and a drip - expect a stay of several days and significant cost with this.

There is a specific antidote to paracetamol poisoning (*acetylcysteine*), but it must be given within the first 12 hours or so of exposure. It must be given as a slow infusion through the drip line.

There are also specific drugs that can be given to help reverse methaemoglobinaemia (such as methylene blue, vitamin C and sodium sulphate)... all of these antidotes are fairly specific and not all practices will have them lying around in a cupboard, but if they do then they can come in very useful. Some cats with severe methaemoglobinaemia also benefit from a *blood transfusion* if a donor cat is available, to replenish the bloodstream with some healthy red blood cells and enable proper oxygen transport around the body.

Sadly, because of the serious nature of paracetamol poisoning, some cats don't make it despite all attempts at treatment. *Euthanasia* is sometimes kinder in severe cases.

*What is the prognosis?*

Unfortunately, the prognosis is always guarded. Cats treated promptly with acetylcysteine have a better chance, but it's a nasty toxin and many cats don't make it.

*How can I prevent paracetamol toxicity in my cats?*

*Please do not give your cat human medications*, certainly not without running it by your vet FIRST (ie not five minutes after you gave the drug). Paracetamol is also found in Calpol and certain combination tablets such as Anadin, so please don't be tempted to give anything without checking with your vet first.

While paracetamol is not particularly palatable to cats, it is still best not to leave medications lying around where your cat could reach them. Always store medications in a secure location away from pets and children.

There are lots of painkillers available for cats, which are available from your vet. If you are worried that your cat is unwell or in pain, always discuss it with your vet before treating at home.


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## denflo

I was working in a house today where the lady had two massive bouquets of lilies, I then noticed a cat bowl on the floor. When I mentioned how toxic these plants are to her cat, she promised that she would be removing them immediately and instructing her husband to only buy her roses in future!! Another satisfied customer!! :biggrin:


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## Torin.

I'm getting my own cat soon, and have plans to register her at the vets I use for small rodenty people, having discarded a number of more local options. I have good relationships with a couple of the small animal vets specifically, we have conversations about care rather than one-sided decisions and they're just generally pretty fabby. I know most of the nurses and support staff too. 

I'm taking a rat in this week (waiting on them opening now) and have plans to ask them about cats at their surgery while I'm there. They're registered with FAB/ ICatCare, and their dog ward is separate to cats. They also do their own out of hours, and are a mixed veterinary hospital as opposed to surgery, so have a lot of things on-site.

As in, I highly doubt anything they say could make me change my decision, especially as my most local practice is *awful* (also where she's currently registered, with the rescue). But is there anything I should particularly ask about/ pay attention to, to bear in mind in the future when I do go along actually for a cat appointment? I know all the questions to ask to suss out about rodents, but not sure of anything cat-specific. I intend to ask about basic costs, but that's the only thing on my list so far.

Thanks!


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## LostSoul

sorry to hijack this wonderful thread with a question but I've noticed on a lot of anti bacterial products and on disinfectant that it is not suitable for use around cats,on one i read that it is unsafe for cats while wet but ok when dry, i do use these but im very careful and lock the cats out of the room for quite a while and i use them in places they cant get to, after losing Mac to possible FIP the vet told me to bleach and disinfect everything and to disinfect my carpets and cat toys, i have cleaned my carpets and their toys but not disinfected because i was worried of the side effects....i was wondering if anyone knew why they are bad and what the effects of them are?


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## chillminx

An excellent thread Shoshannah, with loads of useful information. :thumbup1: What a treasure you are! 

I do hope you will be requesting the mods to make it into a sticky?


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## Jellypi3

Another vote for stickying this thread! Fantastic effort Shosh, such detail


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## Rosylee1976

Wow this was so helpful. I will be starting this ASAP. Can anyone recommend a toothbrush for kittens. I saw one that seems to fit on your finger from pets at home. Is this a good idea. At the moment Tilly likes the idea of having our fingers In her mouth as she likes to bite, but I have been discouraging this as I don't want to make it a habit. Won't this give mixed messages but also be easier to brush at the same time


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## Ceiling Kitty

Oh I'll ask them, but if they say no...


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## Ceiling Kitty

LostSoul said:


> sorry to hijack this wonderful thread with a question but I've noticed on a lot of anti bacterial products and on disinfectant that it is not suitable for use around cats,on one i read that it is unsafe for cats while wet but ok when dry, i do use these but im very careful and lock the cats out of the room for quite a while and i use them in places they cant get to, after losing Mac to possible FIP the vet told me to bleach and disinfect everything and to disinfect my carpets and cat toys, i have cleaned my carpets and their toys but not disinfected because i was worried of the side effects....i was wondering if anyone knew why they are bad and what the effects of them are?


It depends on the cleaner/disinfectant, but a lot of them contain QACs (quaternary ammonium compounds), which can cause irritation and damage to the gums, tongue, eyes, stomach etc. Others may contain phenols, to which cats are particularly sensitive.


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## Satori

^ I just use aquafresh milk teeth brushes. They have very soft small heads.


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## maisiecat

Well, we chose our first vet because we had no idea which ones there were, having just moved there and got Bob almost straight away, he needed a vet quickly and ended up at Pet Doctors, which was adequate but rushed and his UTI was treated but his ear mites weren't even discovered.

So, I would ask about the length of appointments and whether you will get time to discuss things with the vet.

After the first experience we asked our neighbour which vet she used and registered with them, got a new vet but he was nice and seemed to know what he was doing, and discussed things. We stayed with the practice until we moved away. However, they seemed to take on vets straight from vet school with no experience or what seemed like ones that were actually learning, the last 'new' one we saw was terrible and hadn't a clue and I wouldn't let him near my cat.

So, check that you are getting an experienced vet if you don't want them learning on your cat.

What was important to me also is whether they can do Xrays, scans and tests or pack you off to another branch. No use choosing a vet that is nice and close only to find they send you miles away if anything is needed. And, on our case I chose one that had 2 vets that had an interest in cardiology only to find that I got a different vet each visit although the website said you could ask for the one you wanted. It was not the case as they seemed to only do basic cover.

So, check the opening hours very carefully, don't go by what is on the website and ask if the vet you want is likely to be there most of the time or if they only do one day every couple of weeks at the branch or similar.

I like to also be sure I am not having to travel miles for emergency cover or to have, once again, an inexperienced trainee vet, so check who does OOH cover and what times are their OOH hours. We have to go to the Vet College unfortunately for real OOH cover but the alternative is not so good for all the other aspects and the practice has only one branch, new and good equipment and the same vets all the time, no switching about between branches.

Late nights? Ours is open late 3 evenings a week, also open on weekends.

Those are things I have learned to look for and which matter to me.


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## taylorline

Funnily enough my female is called Tigerlily 

Lily's are no joke though. I got a lily form a friend who didn't know about lily's and cats . I was hesitant to take it but i put it in the bottom bathroom, there are two doors in the was and the cats never get in there.

BUT of course one morning i was in a rush and left the door open and within a split second of me running to the kitchen my boy Romeo was in there nibbling the leaf.

I nearly had a heart attack

I pulled him away and phoned the vet immediately, dumping the lily in the process, thankfully i took the name card of the lily to show the vet.

Romeo seemed fine but i had to make sure, thankfully the lily was in the "amber to green zone" green being fairly safe and red being fatal. according to the vet book. she gave him a jag and he was totally fine :thumbup1:

Safe to say i will never take the risk of owning any type of lily again. to be honest i don't think they are the nicest flowers anyway. it was stupid in the first place :frown2:

Dont take the risk guys. If you have lilys in your garden of nearby i would recommend just taking them away because cats love lilys despite them killing them.


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## bluecordelia

Great info... I was talking to a woman in pets corner who didn't know about lilies..worrying cos was an employee


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Metaldehyde (slug pellets)*


*What should I do?

Call the vet, ASAP. This one can't wait until the morning, even if your cat seems fine. Metaldehyde can cause fits which need controlling as aggressively as possible, or they can be fatal.

*

More detailed information about metaldehyde poisoning:

*What slug pellets are poisonous?*

The *formulation of most snail and slug pellets is similar to dry dog/cat food, so they are actually quite appetising*. The blue colouring added is intended to make it unappealing, and some brands have repellents in them to make them less interesting to cats and dogs. However, in some cases this isn't enough so it is always worth being vigilant.

The majority of popular commercial snail and slug bait products all contain metaldehyde - Eraza, Doff, Rentokil, Bayer are all some common examples you might find on sale.

The pellets are easily recognised if you come across them. They have a distinctive *blue* colouring:



















*How can poisoning with slug bait occur?*

The active ingredient of slug pellets is generally of low concentration, so one pellet is unlikely to pose much harm. That said, only a small amount can be lethal so always contact your vet.

Toxicity is more likely to occur when pellets are distributed in piles rather than scattered sparingly, making it easier to consume a lethal dose. Toxicity is also more of a concern where pellets have been stored incorrectly in a fashion which is accessible to pets.

The exact mechanism of toxicity is not fully understood. Currently it is believed that the metaldehyde causes a decrease in the body's *GABA* concentrations. GABA is a chemical found in the nervous system that regulates the activation of neurones - without it, the neurones begin to fire out of control, which is why we see twitching, tremors and seizures.

*What happens if my cat eats slug bait?*

The symptoms of metaldehyde poisoning set in quickly, usually within 30 minutes. They are nicknamed '*shake and bake*' - affected cats have a high temperature and develop uncontrollable tremors, twitching and increased sensitivity to touch. This eventually progresses to *seizures* and *respiratory distress* - difficulty breathing, blue gums and panting.

Cyanosis - blue-tinged gums caused by poorly oxygenated blood:









In cases that survive, liver failure can occur 2-3 days later, although this is thankfully not common.

*What is the treatment?*

Left untreated, slug bait poisoning is *fatal*. Contact the vet ASAP.

If the cat is presented quickly enough, the vet may induce vomiting. However, if your cat is already weak and suffering from seizures they will not, because inducing vomiting in an unconscious cat is dangerous. In serious cases, flushing the stomach under general anaesthetic might be considered.

There is no specific antidote for metaldehyde. All we can do is support the cat, treat their symptoms and hope they pull through. Cats with breathing difficulty will need *oxygen*. Cautious cooling measures may be implemented to bring the body temperature down carefully.

*Tremors and seizures must be controlled* as best as possible. Diazepam (Valium) is a usual first line anti-convulsant for seizures in cats but is not always effective in cases of metaldehyde poisoning. Sometimes escalation to other anti-convulsants, such as phenobarbitone, or full anaesthesia is necessary to control the fits. A muscle relaxant called methocarbamol (trade name Robaxin) is generally more effective than diazepam, but not all practices stock it.

Cats usually require *hospitalisation* for a couple of days to let them recover from the sedatives used for controlling seizures, and to keep a close eye on their respiratory function. Be prepared for a significant cost.

Your vet may advise *blood tests* to check liver function, as rare cases of liver failure can occur with metaldehyde poisoning.

*What is the prognosis?*

The prognosis is pretty favourable for mild cases, and cats can pull through. However, if they reach the fitting stage and the fits cannot be controlled, the prognosis is guarded. Sadly, some cats don't make it despite our best efforts.

*
How can I prevent metaldehyde toxicity in my cats?*

*Avoid metaldehyde slug pellets* in your garden. If you do, make sure you scatter it sparingly - never pile it - and always store it securely. It is worth enquiring as to what your neighbours use as well, so that you can be aware of what your cat could be coming into contact with if they go outdoors.

There are anti-slug/snail products available that are *safe for use around pets*. I have no idea how effective they are, and I am not endorsing any of them, but some examples of widely available safe slug poisons are:
Ferramol - contains iron phosphate instead of metaldehyde.
Nemaslug - chemical free; contains harmless nematodes that infect and kill slugs.
Slug Gone - natural wool pellets that are irritant to slugs, driving them elsewhere.

You can also make your own eco-friendly slug bait from raw oats or bran. Slugs consume the oats/brain and become dehydrated.


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## Ragdollsfriend

Hi all, I've just recently joined the forum but used a few Yahoo groups before as my tabby girl Tornado had chronic kidney disease and also lymphoma. I wanted to try acupuncture to help her and my vet thought it was a great idea to. I even found in my area a qualified vet and an experienced animal acupuncture expert but sadly my girl passed away just days before the first appointment. 

Another thing I was made aware of was to look for any signs of stomach acid build up which often resulted in poor appetite and bad breath. There are pills available from the vets to counteract this. Alternatively, the slippery elm bark can help. Also sick kitties feel sometimes nauseous and lose appetite. My vet was very good treating the problems but even he didn't know everything. 

Just wanted to share my bit of experience. Oh I still miss my girl so much!


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## Bonnie82

I've just started brushing Dinah and Monty's teeth after the vet diagnosed Monty with mild gingivitis. Arggg! I don't want him getting feline periodontal disease. I've noticed that one of his back teeth has some encrusted plaque on it... will this need to be removed by a vet or do you think it will break away over time?


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## liika

Hi all,i am new.
I am researching about alternative treatments for cancer,since in my country we dont have hollistic vets,and i red about the Kinoko Gold mushrooms,but could not find any specific info about dosage and etc.Anyone had expirience with those?Or at least heard of them?

I also red about the Advanced Immune Restoration Protocol Cats by Vitality Science.
Wonder if the reviews are true?


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## Ceiling Kitty

Cats are brilliant at doing infectious diseases - unfortunately, they have a lot of them!

This thread is intended as a basic overview of the main infectious diseases of the cat. It is not intended to replace professional medical advice. Remember, if you have any concerns about your cat - PLEASE CONTACT YOUR VET!

*Thread contents:*

1. Toxoplasmosis (posts #12 and #13).


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## Charity

Love the heading, very clever, looking forward to Bagpuss's first article.


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## lymorelynn

You and Bagpuss will need your own section of the forum soon :smilewinkgrin:


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## ForeverHome

lymorelynn said:


> You and Bagpuss will need your own section of the forum soon :smilewinkgrin:


That sounds like a grand idea, health and nutrition covers such a wide area!


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## Space Chick

I hope Bagpuss is as knowledgeable as you Shosh.... Or will it be likes "Charlie says" where we will hear him meow and you will translate into slave speak


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## Ceiling Kitty

Space Chick said:


> I hope Bagpuss is as knowledgeable as you Shosh.... Or will it be likes "Charlie says" where we will hear him meow and you will translate into slave speak


He he TBH I'm doing most of the writing. He helped by warming my feet.

First edition should be up this evening.  :thumbsup:

ETA: Bagpuss hit a snag (his writer got distracted and ended up watching a Charlie Day movie). His toxo article is almost finished, but won't be up until Tuesday evening.


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## ForeverHome

Do you think Bagpuss could manage a weekly column?


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## Ceiling Kitty

ForeverHome said:


> Do you think Bagpuss could manage a weekly column?


Depends on his other commitments!


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## Ragdollsfriend

I'm loving the idea whatever shape and form this article/column it's likely to come in as


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## mudgekin

This is a brilliant idea. I love that Bagpuss has told you to take dictation and to post it for him.


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## bluecordelia

I can see bagpuss starting daytime phone in next. Love the idea and all bp's help via his ghost writer


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## Ceiling Kitty

*
Introduction*

_Toxoplasma gondii_, commonly known as 'toxo' or _T.gondii_, causes the disease toxoplasmosis. It is a protozoan parasite, specifically a coccidium, that lives inside host cells.

Coccidia are microscopic single-celled organisms - similar to amoebae - that are able to move by themselves. Most are harmless and cause no issues, but some species can cause disease. The 'cyst-forming coccidia' are so called because they can form cysts in the tissues of infected animals; _T. gondii_ is one of these.

Figure 1: _Toxoplasma_ tachyzoites, viewed under the microscope:










There are three forms of the organism, found at different stages of the life cycle:
- sporozoites - found in the oocysts ('eggs')
- tachyzoites - the actively multiplying stage in the bloodstream and cells (figure 1)
- bradyzoites - the slowly multiplying stage inside tissue cysts

There is more on these three forms below, in a more detailed overview of the toxo life cycle.

Toxo is considered a parasite of the cat, because the cat is the definitive host. As we will see later, it can cause disease in cats under some circumstances. But another major concern about toxo is the disease it can cause in other species - especially sheep and humans.

*Summary: Toxoplasma gondii ('toxo') is a microscopic parasite of cats, that can also infect other animals and humans under certain conditions.*

*Life cycle(s) of Toxoplasma*

1. The intestinal life cycle - only takes place in the cat:










Cats can become infected with toxo via two main routes:
- by eating a tissue cyst in the body of another animal, such as a rodent (more below). This is the more common route (97% of infected cats).
- by ingesting sporulated oocysts from the environment - usually food or water contaminated by cat faeces.

Infection from a queen to her kittens via the placenta or milk can also occur but is less common.

In the cat, the organism infects and multiplies within the cells of the intestinal lining, and infection is usually confined to the bowel. Later, they'll start shedding the 'eggs' (known as oocysts, pronounced 'oo-oh-cysts) in their faeces. These are microscopic and are invisible to the naked eye. This only takes 3-10 days if the cat was infected by eating a tissue cyst, but can take up to 3 weeks if they ingested oocysts themselves. Shedding will continue for around two weeks, after which the cat's immune system will put an end to the active infection.

The oocysts are not immediately infectious. First they have to sporulate, a process of cell division that creates two structures called sporocysts (see image above). The sporocysts contain the form of the _T.gondii_ organism called *sporozoites*. Only once sporulation takes place will these sporocysts be infectious - this process takes 1-5 days to occur in the environment (garden, litter tray etc), following exposure to air and moisture.

Sporulated oocysts can be an infection risk to other animals and humans - more later.

2. The extra-intestinal life cycle - takes place in the cat or in other species:










This is where it can get a bit more complicated. Other species can accidentally ingest these sporulated oocysts shed by cats (usually via consuming contaminated food or water), and therefore become infected by toxo themselves. Meat-eating species such as humans could also become infected by eating tissue cysts in other animals, such as lamb.

The organisms do not reach the intestine of other species and will not be shed in the faeces. Instead, they multiply and form tissue cysts. Here's how...

At first, the toxo organisms undergo a rapid division and spread throughout the body via the bloodstream. The form of the organism that completes this phase is called a *tachyzoite* ('tachy' means 'fast'). This phase will continue for about two weeks, after which the animal's immune system will destroy any tachyzoites and infected cells.

Once this happens, any surviving tachyzoites will wall themselves off into cysts in the animal's body tissues - especially muscles and nerves, but in other organs as well - and become *bradyzoites* ('brady means 'slow'). These cysts can be present for months or even years, and these are infectious if eaten (by a cat, human, other animal). Here are some examples:

1. Rodents
Mice and other small rodents can ingest sporulated oocysts when snuffling around for food in the environment. Cats become infected when they eat a rodent containing the tissue cysts, and the cycle begins again. Around 3-10 days after ingesting such a rodent, the cat will begin to shed oocysts in its faeces.

2. Sheep
Toxo infection in sheep usually causes no problems, unless the infection occurs during pregnancy. When the tachyzoites are flying around the bloodstream of a pregnant ewe, they can cross the placenta and infect the fetuses. Depending on the stage of pregnancy, this results in miscarriage or stillborn lambs. Therefore, it is a significant concern for the sheep farming industry.

3. Humans
It isn't uncommon for humans to pick up toxoplasmosis from cats. It can happen if you eat undercooked meat containing cysts, or if you accidentally ingest sporulated oocysts (generally down to poor hygiene). Toxo infection usually causes no symptoms in people. However, in immunocompromised individuals or pregnant women it can be serious. More on the human side later.

*Summary: animals and humans can become infected by toxo by eating another infected animal or by picking it up from the environment contamined with cat faeces. Only cats shed toxo in their faeces. Toxo can cause abortion and stillbirth in sheep, making it a big problem in the sheep farming industry.*

*Introduction to toxoplasmosis in cats*

Various studies have been performed into how common toxo is in cats. In Portugal, 24% of cats were positive for antibodies. In the US, up to 40% of cats were. It is generally considered common.

We now know that there are three ways for cats to become infected with toxo:
1. Ingesting a tissue cyst in an intermediate host such as a mouse (results in infection in 97% of cats).
2. Ingesting sporulated oocysts (results in infection in 20% of cats).
3. Infection via the placenta and milk from a queen to her kittens.

As you can see, domestic cats are more at risk of infection from hunting than being exposed to other cats' faeces. There is also a small risk of infection from feeding raw meat, as a significant proportion of cattle, sheep, pigs and rabbits have tissue cysts. The prevalence of toxo has been found to be higher in countries where more cats are raw fed, so it is a risk to be aware of. Freezing and cooking destroy the bradyzoites and render the cysts non-infectious.

Can Toxoplasma cause disease in cats?

Short answer? Yes.

The intestinal phase of toxo infection in cats is usually without symptoms, though some cats can suffer with mild, transient diarrhoea. They shed oocysts for 1-2 weeks and then their immune system puts a stop to it.

In a small proportion of cats, however, infection can spread throughout the body with the tachyzoites and this is when we see potentially serious disease. As we know from the previous section, most cats are pretty resistant to this parasite. Therefore, disease is usually seen in immunocompromised cats - kittens, those fighting another disease, FIV/FeLV positive cats, or those on steroids* / chemotherapeutic medications.

_*Studies have shown that commonly used doses of steroids do not predispose cats to serious disease resulting from toxo; very high doses could, in theory, make them more vulnerable._

Symptoms of toxoplasmosis in cats

While infection with _T. gondii_ is common in cats, actual disease is rare.

Tachyzoites and the resulting immune response can damage organs, causing inflammation and cell death. The symptoms of toxo vary depending on the organ(s) affected, and it can be virtually any organ! Therefore there are no specific symptoms of toxoplasmosis to look out for.

Common symptoms are generally vague: fever, joint pain, lethargy, enlarged lymph nodes, weight loss/wasting and loss of appetite. Obviously, these signs could be caused by all sorts of other conditions. In addition, here are some examples of the more common symptoms related to specific organs (in order of how often they are affected):

Brain/spinal cord - unusual behaviour, seizures, paralysis or wobbliness.
Muscles - weakness, twitchiness.
Lungs - difficulty breathing, coughing, pneumonia - the lungs are a common site of infection for immunocompromised cats.
Eyes - uveitis (inflammation of the iris and inner parts of the eye) - figure 2.
Liver/pancreas - jaundice, inappetance, vomiting, abdominal pain.

Sometimes infection can be focal - for example causing only eye disease without any systemic signs.

Figure 2: uveitis in a cat.










Kittens infected in utero are usually stillborn or very weak, often succumbing to infection before they are weaned. For a kitten to be infected in utero or during nursing, the queen must be infected for the first time *during* her pregnancy - if she was infected months/years ago and recovered, her kittens will not be at risk.

Reactivated infections

Most cases of toxoplamosis in cats are not caused by 'new' infections, but by old infections that have become reactivated. When a cat is infected, the tissue cysts in their muscles and nerves are usually walled off by the immune system for life, and they do not pose a risk. If the cat becomes immunocompromised (as listed above - FIV/FeLV infection, chemotherapy, another disease etc) the cysts break open and a fresh wave of tachyzoites goes wandering, causing disease.

Cats suffering with reactivated infections do not tend to shed oocysts in their faeces, so are not an infection risk.

*Summary: while infection with T. gondii is common in cats, actual disease is rare. Symptoms are usually vague and non-specific, and depend on which organ is affected. the most common organs hit are the brain, muscles, lungs and eyes. Immunocompromised cats are most at risk, usually from old infections that 're-activate' when the cat's immune system becomes compromised later on.*


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Diagnosis of toxoplasmosis*

Because symptoms of toxoplasmosis are vague and non-specific, vets will often not suspect it straight away and many tests may need doing to narrow things down.

Depending on their symptoms, ill cats often need a battery of tests such as:
- eye examination for symptoms of uveitis;
- blood tests - can identify an infectious process or identify organ damage;
- chest X-rays for lung involvement;
- further scans such as CT or MRI scans;
- sampling of body fluids such as CSF (cerebrospinal fluid - the fluid around the brain and spinal cord), pleural fluid (from the chest cavity), aqueous humour (from the eye) and BAL fluid (bronchoalveolar lavage - a wash taken from the lungs and airways).

Diagnosis of toxoplasmosis is generally made via a combination of consistent clinical signs and tests such as those above. An exact ante-mortem diagnosis of toxoplasmosis is difficult - in one study of 100 cases confirmed at post-mortem, only 4% had been diagnosed exactly prior to death.

A definitive (exact) diagnosis requires the identification of _T. gondii_ tachyzoites in tissue biopsies, or in samples of fluid from the chest, lungs, CSF or eye. They are rarely found in blood samples. Identification of tachyzoites can be via a PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test - this is a way of amplifying DNA in a sample for the purposes of identifying a particular organism - or by looking under the microscope and seeing them. Of course, tachyzoites can only be found during an acute infection, as after a while they transform into bradyzoites and form tissue cysts.

PCR is not a flawless test, however; the DNA of _T. gondii_ can be found in cats with latent infections (ie harmless inactive tissue cysts), and the PCR test has no way of distinguishing these cats from those fighting an active infection. More work is needed before a diagnosis can be made from PCR alone.

Serology for _T. gondii_ antibodies

Serology looks for antibodies to _Toxoplasma gondii_. They can be measured in blood, CSF, and aqueous humour (fluid from inside the eye).

There are two types of antibodies measured, via an ELISA or latex agglutination test:

*IgM* - these are involved in the early stages of infection, so levels rise 1-4 weeks after infection and are usually negative by sixteen weeks.

*IgG* - these are involved in the later stages of infection, so levels rise 3-4 weeks after infection and tend to remain in the bloodstream long term as part of the immune system.










As you can see, a blood sample taken early in the infection (sample A) will have a high titre of IgM antibodies and a reasonably low titre of IgG antibodies. This pattern tells us that the cat has an active infection or did so very recently. A persistently high IgM titre can be seen in cats with FIV or those on steroids.

A blood sample taken later on (weeks, months or even years later) (sample B) may show a high titre of IgG and a low IgM titre. This tells us that the cat has been exposed to _T. gondii_ in the past, but NOT necessarily that it is currently fighting an infection.

Another way to look for recent or active infection is to get paired samples. This is simple - just collect two blood samples 2-4 weeks apart and measure IgG both times. In a recent or active infection, you'll get a rise in IgG titre as the cat's immune system mounts a response. A 4-fold increase (or more) in IgG levels indicates active infection. If the levels are stable, or only have a small change, this suggests that there is no active infection taking place.*

_* an important distinction is the re-activated infection. In these cases, the cat may still have a high IgG titre from its previous infection, so you won't see any change with the new infection._

Remember, toxo antibodies are found in healthy AND sick cats. They can help make or break the diagnosis, but are not the be-all and end-all. Toxoplasmosis remains difficult to diagnose.

Diagnosis of oocyst shedding

Remember that virtually all cats will shed oocysts in their faeces for about two weeks when they are infected. Shedding oocysts is *NOT* the same as having the disease toxoplasmosis. A diagnosis of toxoplasmosis can only be made by identifying the organism in tissues or bodily fluids.

There are two ways to find oocysts in faeces:

1. The oocysts can be detected in faeces via a method called faecal flotation. This involves spinning a faecal sample filtered with a specific flotation solution (in the case of _T. gondii_, Sheather's solution or zinc sulphate is used). The oocysts collect at the top of the sample and are removed for analysis under the microscope. It is important to note that the unsporulated oocysts of _T. gondii_ can be impossible to distinguish from other harmless protozoan parasites of cats.

2. _T. gondii_ DNA can also be detected in faeces via PCR. Two labs in the UK offering faecal PCR for _T. gondii_ are Idexx and Greendale.

*Summary: definitive diagnosis of toxo is very difficult in the living cat. Serology for antibodies can be helpful but will not always provide the answers. Identification of tachyzoites in biopsy samples, or by PCR testing of tissue or fluid, provides the nearest thing to a definitive diagnosis but is not foolproof either. Lots of tests may be needed to diagnose toxoplasmosis.*

*Treatment of toxoplasmosis in cats*

The treatment of choice for toxoplasmosis is the antibiotic clindamycin. In the UK, this is available as capsules (Antirobe - figure 3), tablets (Clinacin) or an oral liquid (Clindaseptin). A course of at least four weeks is needed.

Figure 3: Antirobe capsules, containing clindamycin:










Cats with specific ocular signs such as uveitis also require eye drops - usually steroids - to reduce inflammation in the eye. If this is untreated it can lead to complications such as glaucoma or scarring inside the eye, both of which are serious.

The response to clindamycin is usually rapid - within 2-3 days. Cats with ocular signs or infection involving the brain or spinal cord respond more slowly. In cats with lung involvement, the signs of lung disease on X-ray will take several weeks to resolve; cats with involvement of the lungs have a poor prognosis as the damage can be severe and irreversible. The same goes for cats with involvement of the liver.

Other treatments for toxoplasmosis include the antibiotic trimethoprim-sulphonamide (trade names Duphatrim, Tribrissen; human liquid version called Septrin also available off-licence) and the less commonly used antibiotic azithromycin and the anti-protozoal pyrimethamine. These all have more side effects than clindamycin.

Depending on their symptoms, some cats require more intensive treatment and/or hospitalisation. Cats with lung involvement may need oxygen therapy. Cats with brain involvement can suffer from seizures and may need anticonvulsants. Cats with pancreatitis benefit from pain relief.

*Summary: the mainstay of toxo treatment is the antibiotic clindamycin. Other treatments may be necessary, depending on the signs.*

*Preventing toxoplasmosis in cats*

An increased risk of toxoplasmosis has been associated with raw feeding. We do know that the main route of infection for cats is by eating tissue cysts in the meat from an infected animal - be it mouse or raw meat fed by us - so it is important to minimise the risks. _T. gondii_ is destroyed by freezing and cooking. Feeding a high quality product from a trusted source can reduce (though not eliminate) the risk of infection.

Steps to reduce hunting - an indoor lifestyle, enclosed outdoor access or a bell on a safety-release collar - can reduce a cat's exposure to the parasite.

Cats that have been previously exposed generally remain immune to re-infection for life, but in some cats immunity can wane after 5-6 years.

*Toxoplasma gondii and humans*

Lots of people can, and do, pick up a toxo infection and display no signs whatsoever. After the tachyzoite phase, the immune system kicks in and the infection enters the bradyzoite phase, and that's generally the end of it.

However, _T. gondii_ does pose a risk to human health under certain circumstances:
- immunocompromised individuals; 
- young children;
- pregnant women.
In these individuals, an inefficient immune response can result in the development of toxoplasmosis. Symptoms are not dissimilar to those seen in cats: encephalitis and seizures, uveitis, lung disease and heart disease. Infection is a particular concern in pregnant women, as an infection during pregnancy can result in miscarriage or birth defects.

How do people contract _T.gondii_?

The most common route of infection for humans is by eating uncooked infected meat. Another, much less common route is via the ingestion of sporulated oocysts. This can occur through consuming food or water contaminated with cat faeces, or by not practising common sense hygiene - such as washing hands after handling cat faeces, litter trays etc.

Are cats a risk to humans?

The short answer is 'no, not really'. While pregnant women and immunocompromised individuals should take extra precautions to avoid putting themselves into a position where toxo infection is possible (more below), keeping a cat is not going to kill you.

For a start, only 1 out of every 250 cats shed oocysts, and even those that are shedding don't have them on their coat. Stroking a cat is not a risk. Bites and scratches, while possibly posing other dangers, cannot transmit toxo.

Studies have found that vets are no more at risk of toxo than the general population despite working closely with cats (and their bodily fluids!), and that cat ownership is not associated with an increased risk of toxo in people who are HIV positive.

The risk of infection through eating undercooked meat is far greater than that inflicted by cats.

Advice to prevent transmission to humans

Empty litter trays daily. Remember that oocysts take 2-3 days to sporulate and become infectious; if you remove faeces daily, they won't get the chance. Always wear gloves and wash your hands well afterwards, and dispose of used cat litter carefully.

Cover children's sandpits when not in use, so that cats cannot use them as a latrine.

Immunocompromised people and pregnant women should not handle litter trays at all.

If someone in the household becomes immunocompromised or pregnant, it is a good idea to test all the cats in the household for _T. gondii_ antibodies. If they are positive for IgG antibodies, it means they have been exposed previously. These cats are not a risk because they will already have completed their phase of oocyst shedding. If they are negative, they have never been infected with toxo; these cats will be a risk if they become infected as they will shed oocysts. Measures should be taken to prevent infection of the cats: keep them indoors, prevent hunting and avoid raw diets.

Suicide risk?

A 2012 study found a link between _T. gondii_ infection and an increased risk of self-directed violence or suicide attempts in people. This is thought to be due to a lack of serotonin resulting from brain inflammation caused by the parasite, contributing to depression. This may be a consideration in future research and treatment of depression.

*IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT TOXOPLASMOSIS, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR VET. IF YOU HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT TOXO AND HUMAN HEALTH, SPEAK TO YOUR GP.*


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## Polly G

I just love the magnificent Bagpuss xx


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## vivien

Hi Shosh thank you for this information. 
Yogi my maine coon is on Antirobe for life.
I will start from the beginning. We got Yogi at 12 weeks, within 2 weeks he was losing weight even though he ate like a horse, he had started diareah and had a head tilt. We have a multi vet practice and at first he saw 3 different vets who said he had an inner ear infection and tummy infection, but none of the treatments worked and slowly he got worse he was intermittently blind and he got weaker and weaker, untill one night he collapsed, we thought it was due to the new antibiotic he was on he had several blood test urine tests and fecal tests but all came back clear, back to him collapsing, we rushed him to the vet it was 10 o'clock at night and we saw the vet that we will only see now Kevin. He said he had neurological problems and he told us to go to the Animal Health trust In Newmarket the next day as he would arrange it all first thing in the morning. When we got there Yogi was blind could not walk and we really didn't think we would bring him home. There was this wonderful man called Simon Platt. Unfortunatly he has gone back to America. He did an MRI scan and a spinal tap and it turned out that Yogi has inflammation of the spine and although it cannot be proved as the tests that he had came up clear toxiplasmosis. And was put on clyndamycin. He improved and was sent home for 2 weeks cage rest. When he came home I cried his poor little legs looked like chicken legs. And it took a good few weeks for him to get some muscle back in them. He got his sight back and to this day Yogi cannot jump.Kevin has tried 3 times to take him off the Antirobe and every time he gets his symptoms back. Kevin says we will probably never know why Yogi is like this. And he will never jump like my other boys and he does have back pain but he is happy and while he is happy I am happy. He has also reached a weight of 4.40 kilos, he is never going to reach maine coon size but he is my special little man and i love him dearly. 

Viv xx


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## Azriel391

ForeverHome said:


> Do you think Bagpuss could manage a weekly column?


Yay weekly column would be brill ! Brilliance from Bagpuss


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## mudgekin

Thanks for this. The importance of making sure that immunocompromised people aren't exposed to cat faeces can't be over emphasised. I nursed a delightful child who had a bone marrow transplant which left her seriously immunocompromised and who died of neuro toxoplasmosis. Her parents who unfortunately weren't the brightest bulbs in the box had given her the chore of cleaning the cats litter tray. :scared:

It was heartbreaking watching that.


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## ForeverHome

Aeth said:


> I have a beloved peace lily which I put out of reach when River arrived. Thing is, a windowless bathroom isn't the best place for any kind of plant! After reading this, I decided to give it a try in the living room again, because if she didn't pay any attention to it then there was no risk.
> 
> Trouble is, as soon as I popped it back on the shelf... there she is, batting at the leaves! So we're up on top of the tall bookcase for now, hoping there can be a bit of compromise! Even if it's not serious if she does eat any, I still don't want to chance it!


I rehomed my peace lily, I've had them forever and cats have never bothered with it until Molly came along. It can stay there now, she loves it and looks after it well.

But Molly only went for it when she had run out of grass. As long as there is grass she doesn't worry about houseplants. Just a thought on how strong the drive to eat grass can be for an indoor cat


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## Sophiebee

What would be considered 'long term' use? Duchess has been prescribed metacam for her stomatitis and im really unsure about giving it. She has been given 3 weeks worth for now (along with antirobe) but we have been advised she may need longer and/or repeat courses. I really dont know what to do, i was planning to give it for the three weeks and then discuss other options if she needs ongoing treatment, as im reluIctant to carry it on. Im worried about giving it at all though to be honest, Duchess is two and aside from her stomatitis is in good health, im just not sure what to do for the best


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## Cookieandme

Shoshannah said:


> AFAIK Metacam has never been licensed in the USA for cats, but I will stand corrected if someone else knows different.


I think this is correct as when Metacam has been mentioned folk across the pond have been horrified to find we give it in the UK.


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## Dally Banjo

Sophiebee said:


> What would be considered 'long term' use? Duchess has been prescribed metacam for her stomatitis and im really unsure about giving it. She has been given 3 weeks worth for now (along with antirobe) but we have been advised she may need longer and/or repeat courses. I really dont know what to do, i was planning to give it for the three weeks and then discuss other options if she needs ongoing treatment, as im reluIctant to carry it on. Im worried about giving it at all though to be honest, Duchess is two and aside from her stomatitis is in good health, im just not sure what to do for the best


If she still needs it after the 3 weeks a blood test should be done & then yearly after that.

We have 2 cats on long term Loxicom, which I hate haveing to give them especialy Tango as he is only young  but it makes such a difference so......


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## Sophiebee

Dally Banjo said:


> If she still needs it after the 3 weeks a blood test should be done & then yearly after that.
> 
> We have 2 cats on long term Loxicom, which I hate haveing to give them especialy Tango as he is only young  but it makes such a difference so......


Thank you, hopefully the 3 weeks brings it under control and we can manage it without after.


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## claire8234

Our cat hates being held at all, even to have his spot on treatment done so at the minute I use plaque off which was recommended by my vet. What are thoughts on this, is it effective? I also have some logic gel which is meant to be good but I haven't tried it yet, I'm worried about losing a finger


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## Ceiling Kitty

Bagpuss is now working on the second instalment of his thread: FIV.


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## Jiskefet

As some of you may know, I lost Josje to bone cancer last month.
We didn't do an aspirate or biopsy to determine the type of cancer, but on the X-ray, it looked like a prototype osteosarcoma, which is relatively prevalent in dogs, but very rare in cats.
She had a cauliflower-shaped tumour on her heel and metastases all over her chest.

The X-rays are not Josje's, they are from a dog, but it will give you an impression of what hers looked like.



















She never showed any signs of illness or even discomfort until she appeared to miss her footing when jumping off the worktop, and 2 highly experienced vets, one of them an orthopaedic vet, initially missed the tumour. They thought she sprained her knee or heel.

By the time the tumour got big and warm enough to become noticeable, it had spread to her chest and even her brain.

Though osteosarcoma is extremely rare in cats, it does occur, and it is a very aggressive type of tumour. so if you discover a lump on a long bone, even a small one, do get it X-rayed at once. If you get to it before it spreads, amputation of the limb may still save your cat.


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## Maiaetta

Got to say I've been panicking about getting mines done but that video has reassured me it's a relatively simple op. The vet I've chosen is one that I've seen approves early neutering and I have their first appointment for a health check today so will discuss my options. My girls are 14 weeks and ideally I want them spayed the sooner the better.


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## claire8234

I have no problem with using metacam and did when Stitch had a huge ulcer on his tongue. The only problem was it did give him really bad diarrhoea, but it did stop the pain and let him eat again.


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## Macshadow

Fantastic thread - thank you very much! I have known about the lilies but I had no idea about the Advantix for ticks&fleas for dogs. I need to do some cleaning...


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## Sady

Munchausen with pets?! 

I was wondering whether anyone else has experience this...?
I have 2 cats one 10 one 2 years old. The eldest has been off colour for about a year with numerous visits to vets not thyroid, not diabetes, but it seems my cat is dying! Now ny 2 year old cat has same symptoms. Weight loss, increased thirst, vocal, sickness, urination in house lethargy irritability increase appetite and a drunken walk. Got him tested and they think it could be poisoning of both cats. 
We have a neighbour who lures both my cats into her house and feeds them every day, told her not to and she claims they won't stop visiting her house. They both spend everyday on her bench and in her house. She acts as though she's being a hero bringing them both home every night and always makes references to poisoning, tells us to visit the vet, comments on our cats behaviour! When my mum was away for a week the eldest cat suddenly got really sick and she called me to come to help her. She takes far too much interest in my cats and is always there with working tablets / medication when they're ill. She's acting like the saviour concerned neighbour but my cats do not go anywhere apart from mine and hers! I really think she revels in the attention she gets from telling us our cats are I'll and being the one who suggests the vet visit / medication! Without concrete evidence I can't report her but I am definitely going to confront her ... Has anyone heard of this before?!


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## moggie14

Brilliant post, thanks so much Shosh :thumbup1:
Please can this be a sticky mods? 
Explains things so very well, and will reassure and comfort those who need to make that heart breaking decision we all know too well :sad:


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## Jiskefet

This should be made a sticky.

This post has eased some of my pain over Ricky and Josje's death. 
It is very obvious from the survey I didn't let them go too late or too early, so even though it doesn't lessen the grief, at least I can lay off the guilt trip.
I did what I had to do...

The poems are such a great comfort, too.

Thank you, Shosh, tried to rep you, but I can't.... yet.


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## huckybuck

Thank you Shosh. Such a difficult subject. I still have a problem with euthanasia even though have had 3 cats euthanaised so far. 



Please don't read this if you will get upset.











Cinders, became ill on a bank holiday and there was no vet available to come home with her to PTS. 

She was euthanaised at the emergency vets. I sat with her, but she howled when the injection took place. I shouted for the vet to stop as I thought they were hurting her, but immediately I thought I might be causing her more pain by stopping, so told them to carry on. It was the worst experience of my life. 

She definitely wasn't put to sleep. Her life was ended by me.

I have since had 2 more cats euthanaised; one had fluid build up on the lungs through hcm and the other cancer. Both were in considerable discomfort and I wanted to stop their suffering. I ended their lives for them. Neither went to sleep. Both felt what was happening. But the suffering at the end I hope compensated for ending the suffering they were experiencing. 

I actually don't like the term PTS as I think it is incredibly misleading. 

I am not against euthanasia at all and if needs be would do it again, but I do think people should be aware it's not as simple as a little injection and the cat drifts off to sleep...


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## Ceiling Kitty

huckybuck said:


> Thank you Shosh. Such a difficult subject. I still have a problem with euthanasia even though have had 3 cats euthanaised so far.....


Euthanasia is not a simple thing, and ultimately it is ending a life. While we do everything possible to end that life smoothly and in as much of a pain and stress-free way possible, sadly it doesn't always go exactly to plan.

I'm sorry you have had bad experiences. My own cat went to sleep in my OH's lap following the sedation, and felt nothing with the final injection. I was fortunate and could not have asked for a smoother end to his life - he went to bed on Thursday night fine, but started fitting in the early hours of the morning. There was no way I could have left him to pass on his own as he was clearly in distress.

Oftentimes, it IS as simple as a little injection and the cat drifts off (this is why I like sedation and sedate 90% of my patients prior to euthanasia). But, it's true - some cats struggle with restraint, or feel a bit funny with the injection and say something.

I'll be honest with you: I've seen the same thing with cats being anaesthetised for a procedure - some cry or shake. And I have also seen cats die 'naturally' and it can sometimes be just as protracted and distressing.

I hope my post was not upsetting for you, thanks for sharing your experiences for any future readers xxxx


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## MinkyMadam

Thanks Shosh for your initial post and huckybuck for sharing your experience. I've also had a difficult experience with a cat being PTS. It was many years ago but the memory is still very vivid. Troy was only 9 and became ill very suddenly. I was still relatively young at the time and was totally unprepared, having had very little experience with bereavement of any kind. 
Although it was very upsetting, I know it was kinder than watching him continue to suffer. It felt like it took a long time but in reality was probably only several minutes. For a while it was the only image of him I could picture. Over time, I managed to put it into the bigger context of the 9 very happy years he played such a large part in our lives, and think of the memories that made me smile. 
I guess there are parallels with when people we love die, which is not always in the peaceful way we might imagine. 
I'm grateful that this forum provides a safe space where we can share these experiences and try to support each other. Not everyone in normal daily life understands.


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## Soozi

The first anniversary of when I had to have my last lovely girl Picolina put to sleep is looming. I knew it was the right thing to do, she could not cope with the Chemo after only having one treatment for Lymphoma, we feel the Cancer had spread in the few weeks we were waiting for the drugs to arrive from mainland Spain by then we were force feeding her and she was so unhappy and looked terribly ill, she was only really unwell for a few days, the Vet said she could not undergo a second session of chemo but without it she would die! I have to say I still cannot believe that I had to play God with her life and still find it hard to forgive myself even though I knew what we did was 100% right for my darling girl.


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## Treaclesmum

My Panda growled when he was pts, he still seemed to have some fight left in him, so now I would never do it until I was certain the cat was ready to give up on life and drift off to pastures new, I would always wait until the cat let me know that he or she was ready.

I would ease them on their way, but I couldn't choose the date myself, I would have to let the cat decide.


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## huckybuck

Shosh, your post wasn't distressing at all and I thank you for it. It was very informative and these things do need to be out in the open before you're faced with the decision you have to make. I really just wanted to make people aware it's not always as easy as it sounds, PTS. I think I have probably been unlucky with my 3 experiences but it wouldn't prevent me from doing it again should the need arise. The one thing I would try to ensure is that the cats are sedated in future prior to the injection. 

I am so glad Orange cat's passing was peaceful and that gives me hope that there is a better way.


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## huckybuck

Just wanted to say this is the first time I've ever been able to talk about what happened and to hear that other PF have been through similar experiences is such a comfort. Thank you.


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## Ceiling Kitty

We are all here for each other. It sounds silly but I've received greater support throughout Orange and Tother on here than I did in the 'real world' (with the exception of my Mum).

I have been in the unfortunate position to euthanase many cats over the years. Happily, the vast majority have gone smoothly. As I said, I sedate most cats first. Some object to the injection, which is usually given into the muscle in their neck or back - squeaking, occasionally hissing or (in the most extreme cases) turning around and trying to take their revenge. That can be upsetting, but at least it's over in a second and their owners can then soothe them before they start to feel sleepy and drop off.

A few vomit, which an be a bit unpleasant, but most do not. We can easily clear it up if they do.

It's my personal view that any transient discomfort from the sedative injection is preferable to the restraint for the intravenous injection for a stressed cat, in which they must stay very still. Any struggling can be difficult for the vet, the cat and the owner. Some cats don't mind and sit still as they drift off.

My friend does it differently - she virtually always places intravenous catheters, which is again a momentary discomfort, and then injects through that so no restraint is necessary and the cat can pass away in their owner's lap. Sometimes I do it this way, but overall I'm a sedation fan.

Sadly, there is a small minority (and I can honestly, hand-on-heart say it's a minority) where the euthanasia is not as smooth as I've hoped. In my case this has usually happened with dogs rather than cats. I've had a couple of dogs howl when I've given them the injection (having not sedated them first); while this has also happened with dogs being anaesthetised, due to them feeling a bit woozy from the drug, it is obviously distressing when it happens during euthanasia.

I have had one cat jump off the owner's lap after being given the sedative injection. Only one.

And I have had many cases, again in dogs, where I have been unable to locate a vein. Because these dogs are sedated, they don't know any different - it can be a bit upsetting for the owner though because the procedure takes longer and I'm sure a lot of them would rather it was over ASAP.

I hate bad euthanasias. They make me feel awful and I've lost many a night's sleep when one has not gone well.

As I said, in my experience (and I have witnessed hundreds over the years), the majority are peaceful. I realise this is of little comfort if yours was in that minority.


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## Madamzsazsa

I'm sitting here with tears streaming down my face....

Thank you for this post, I wish I'd seen it last week.

Last Thursday we made the heartbreaking decision to have our beloved Floyd PTS. The tumour had doubled in size in less than two weeks. He was clearly tired and uncomfortable. He was ready.

I just wished I knew about the reflex body actions, I could have steeled myself for them...


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## mudgekin

Thanks so much for this Shoshannah. This should be a sticky.

I feel I was privileged to gave Mudgekin's last moments at home, on our bed surrounded by live. The vet was fab, she sedated her and although she tried to get up a wee but and salivated quite a bit, it was peaceful and she was dealt with beautifully. The vet took her away wrapped in her blanket. She held her with as much tenderness as a newborn baby.

When we got her ashes back, there was a really nice card from the crematorium along with a lovely sprig of dried flowers.

Her ashes are sitting in my mum's room along with her ashes, both waiting till they are put into my coffin.

God, that sounds so morbid and I have never ever told anyone this before. I'm sitting sobbing my heart out.


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## Cleo38

Such a great post which (unfortunately) we will all be affected by at some point. Really do think this should be made a sticky.

Really good of you to take so much time to put this together, am sure it will help everyone in making that difficult decison & knowing what is involved


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## MightyMouse88

Def needs to be a STICKY!

I've had a few pusscats PTS, for a range of reasons (all ill health).

First was my beloved Snoopy, I'd had since aged 9. She was 12 years old and had feline luekemia. She was otherwise healthy; still quite active, and was eating. But the day she stopped drinking (seemed to hurt her for me to syringe water gently into her mouth) was the day I phoned to make The Appointment. I knew enough about kidney filature to know it's excruciating and I was not going to let that happen to her. I didn't get to hold her although I was with her. I wish I'd been prepared (ie told) how FAST it was. I imagined she would be given the injection then die be able to take her into my arms and she would drift off to sleep. In reality it was a split second. I'd planned to take her body name with me and then then back for cremation, but wasn't prepared for how floppy she would be afterwards. I got her ashes back though.

My 2nd fur baby was a young boy cat I'd adopted at 3 weeks of age (orphan litter of kittens).. He had a tooth removed, routine OP, but within 24 hours was nearly dead due to massive infection in his mouth - vet guessed and was correct - feline AIDS. I took his body home with me for the night, had him cremated.

My 3rd fur baby, had kidney disease. Treated her with meds for over a year, good quality of life aside for the twice daily pills she didn't care for too kindly - having said they, she was the most grumpiest cat you'd ever meet! She was hilarious really - you'd talk to her 'hey Puss!' And she'd growl back at you. You'd say 'oh, what's the matter?' She'd reply with a massive HISS! When she started twitching, I knew it was an early sign of kidney filature and I DID NOT want her to go into renal failure at 2am and it take nearly an hour for me to get a vet up and meet to put her to sleep. She knew it was time - she literally walked into the open cage (when she normally ran from it). As the needle was put in? She hissed - typical for her, she had to have the last say! Took her body home for the night, cried with her, wrote her a long letter, wrapped it with a ribbon, and returned her for cremation.

Last year - my believed fur baby I had had for 15 years. She was a special cat who you KNEW was an old soul. Pure white with green eyes. She was majestic, and let you know it. She went most of the last year of her life living next door with my neighbour..... My neighbour's elderly father had died and my beloved cat simply moved into his bedroom and took over her house .... Even now, 18 months later, her pusscat will NOT sit on the chair my cat took over! My neighbour came with me and we hold her together. My beloved pusscat laid her head on me as she was out to sleep. Very quick. I know she KNEW and she was ready. She had started to suffer (was nearly 18 years old).

I've been lucky - all died very quickly. And I don't believe they suffered. Far far better to do it this way than for them to go into kidney failure or experience acute pain.

I guess maybe sometimes they can sense what is going to happen and feel FEAR - but if left to die 'naturally', we don't know they don't also feel that same fear then - only they might also be in excruciating pain, and be alone.


----------



## Jiskefet

I have been very lucky that all my cats reacted well to the sedation and drifted off into a blissful unconsciousness before the final injection was given. But the suffering before that, especially with Steffie, Daisy and Ricky, who were in agony, still haunts me. 

And little Gaudi, who would not let go as long as he had any strength left in him to give and receive more love and cuddles...
By the time he indicated he had had enough and was ready to go, he was already getting colder and had the smell of death around him. He really hung on till the very last. It really hurt me at the time to see him like that, but I can now think of his passing with a smile. My little boy loved us so much he wanted to enjoy as much of our presence as he could. And he had so much love to give in these last few days....

What greater gift can you receive - or give - than concentrating all this love in the little time you have left together???? Gaudi lived and died happy, basking in the intense love he gave and received. 
I was allowed to share my life with an angel for 7 months...
So who am I to complain?????


----------



## Catloverbearsden

We had to put Chico to sleep nearly 7 years ago due to massive blood clots that came on very suddenly one Sunday evening at around 11pm - she was only 8 years old. She was sedated first and I can honestly say that her passing was very quick and (I think and hope) peaceful for her. 

She did empty her bladder but just before her injection she looked at my husband as if to say its time to let me go. We were both heartbroken but were glad that she was at home when she became paralysed and not outside and unable to get home.


----------



## Susan M

I find it incredibly difficult to get my head around ending something's life, even when I know 100% it's the best thing. 
We've now lost all 3 of my childhood cats, I do really believe they tell you when it's time. Kizzie had cancer, we had a lump removed, a year later it grew back, she was my first cat, I was 6 when she came home, and I can honestly say I have never felt emotional pain like I did losing her. It was 3 years ago now, when the time came she actually let go and passed away in my Mums arms on the way to the vets. 

We said goodbye to Gismo last year, he didn't specifically have anything wrong with him, but he was very old, and his quality of life was definitely compromised, again he told us when it was time. My step dad took him, he just sat on his lap in the car, no fight, he went peacefully. 

And most recently, our old girl Shadow had to be helped along in June. I still find it difficult, no one in the regular world understands, was just brushed over and I was expected to be okay I think. She was 19, I think it hit harder because she was the last of our 3, we made the decision as a family, but it was horrific, she was still eating and drinking, toileting normally, washing herself fine, purring away when she got some loving. She had gone completely blind in a very short time, could barely hear either, we gave her chance to acclimatise to not being able to see, but she simply didn't. She was very disorientated, she wouldn't use a litter box so was still going outside, but she started to get stressed when the disorientation got worse and she couldn't work out where she was. So although she was well in herself, for her own well being she was PTS. 

I wasn't present for any of them, I have a horrid phobia of dead things, now my girls are only young but I already worry what I will do, I can't not be there for them, but I don't know how I will be. 
I also didn't know vets would come to your house to do it, I would definitely go down that route.


----------



## Paddypaws

I keep on coming back to this thread because I think i will soon have to make a decision about Murphy who is 19 1/2 and increasingly frail.
I am going to take him to the vet for a bag of IV fluids tomorrow to see if it perks him up and improves his appetite, so we still have a few things to try.
I am very lucky that I have a vet on the corner of my road who has done home visits for my last two that needed PTS. Both times it has been a gentle and peaceful passing which does help.


----------



## huckybuck

Paddypaws, sorry to hear about Murphy but how wonderful to get to 19 1/2 and more hopefully.

Have you tried the Vitamin B injection. We started to give this to our old boy for a little more energy and for the side effect that his appetite would increase. It was amazing to see how quickly it worked.


----------



## Paddypaws

huckybuck said:


> Paddypaws, sorry to hear about Murphy but how wonderful to get to 19 1/2 and more hopefully.
> 
> Have you tried the Vitamin B injection. We started to give this to our old boy for a little more energy and for the side effect that his appetite would increase. It was amazing to see how quickly it worked.


I do have a bottle of B12 that i have given him previously....I cant say it had any noticeable effect and boy does that stuff sting when it goes in! 
Might try and jab him later on, but he is getting a bit stressed by me chasing him round and pilling or syringe feeding him.  he has HT, high BP and probably Lymphoma and has lost a lot of weight.
I hope it is not quite his time yet, but I am starting to plan things. I like to take them up to the Crem myself, and collect the ashes too....it seems like the last respect i can pay them.


----------



## mudgekin

Susan M said:


> I still find it difficult, no one in the regular world understands, was just brushed over and I was expected to be okay I think.


Susan, you have hit the nail on the head with that statement. I had a major presentation the next day and no-one at all understood. The girl I shared an office detests animals, she just looked at me blankly. I didn't know about this forum as I believe it can help so much. I still mourn my baby and we are approaching a year. I still wish I had someone to talk to who understands.


----------



## Erenya

Our Vet - Highcroft Vets in the Bristol Area - Neuters at 4 months or 2 kilos, which ever come first. Our little boy and girls were done at 4 months with no stress or problems and with apparently very little pain. 2 days of metacam and she ran round la loony with her brother as usual. I'm not sure she even noticed she's had an op....


----------



## Zookeeper

I am heartbroken at the moment as I have had to have one of my beloved cats pts this morning. For the past 2 weeks he has been treated for an ear infection. He was given Clavudale 50mg tablets 1 twice per day for 6 days and then a few days later (on 6.9.14) he was prescribed Metacam. He continued on the Metacam 0.3 dose until 10.9.14 and then 0.2 dose until 14.9.14. Yesterday 16.9.14 I took him to the vets as he was very lethargic and not eating. He was admitted and put on a drip because he was dehydrated and kept on the drip overnight. At 9.30 this morning I was advised to have him pts as he was in total kidney failure. I am now blaming myself for this as I have read that Metacam can cause acute renal failure and death in cats and that it should not be given to any cat with existing renal problems. My cat's renal bloods have been slightly elevated for some time - my vet said that this was probably pre-renal and maybe connected to his heart murmur (for which he was on Fortekor 2.5mg daily). I am terrified that I have killed my beautiful friend by giving him Metacam.


----------



## moggie14

Oh my gosh I am so very sorry to hear this :sad:
I'm a bit confused why Metacam was prescribed for an ear infection, my limited knowledge is that it is a painkiller and anti inflammatory.
Was your cat elderly? 
Please, please don't blame yourself for your cats death - in no uncertain terms it was not your fault. 
Maybe when you are in a better place you can tell us some more info.
Thinking of you, please take care xx


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Zookeeper said:


> I am heartbroken at the moment as I have had to have one of my beloved cats pts this morning. For the past 2 weeks he has been treated for an ear infection. He was given Clavudale 50mg tablets 1 twice per day for 6 days and then a few days later (on 6.9.14) he was prescribed Metacam. He continued on the Metacam 0.3 dose until 10.9.14 and then 0.2 dose until 14.9.14. Yesterday 16.9.14 I took him to the vets as he was very lethargic and not eating. He was admitted and put on a drip because he was dehydrated and kept on the drip overnight. At 9.30 this morning I was advised to have him pts as he was in total kidney failure. I am now blaming myself for this as I have read that Metacam can cause acute renal failure and death in cats and that it should not be given to any cat with existing renal problems. My cat's renal bloods have been slightly elevated for some time - my vet said that this was probably pre-renal and maybe connected to his heart murmur (for which he was on Fortekor 2.5mg daily). I am terrified that I have killed my beautiful friend by giving him Metacam.


I'm sorry for your loss.  xxx

I'm a little confused by your post, sorry - when you say he was on 0.3 dose and 0.2 dose, do you mean 0.3mg/kg and 0.2mg/kg, or 3 units and 2 units? The former would be a rather high dose; the latter makes more sense.

I wouldn't say that Metacam should not be given to cats with pre-existing problems at all - see my first post discussing this - but in my opinion it's best avoided if possible and, if it _is_ decided to proceed, to be given with care.

My own cat had Metacam with mild azotaemia without issue.

I'm always a little concerned about using ACE inhibitors (such as Fortekor) with NSAIDs, especially if there is renal compromise, because the two together can exacerbate any renal effects.

You are not responsible for your cat's death. You have acted in his best interests; do not blame yourself. It may help you to speak to the vet about all of this and try and make some sense of what has happened.

Thoughts are with you during this sad time xxx


----------



## Zookeeper

Thank you Moggie 14 and Shoshannah for your replies. He was prescribed the Metacam alongside the antibiotics as my vet said it would help with the inflammation in his ear and as pain relief as he was very unhappy when his ear was being examined. With regards to dose the 0.3 and 0.2 relate to the markings on the syringe supplied with the Metacam. Noah weighed 3.5kgs and I was advised to fill the syringe to the 3 marker to start with and then drop the dose to the 2 mark after a few days. Noah was only 12 and he totally trusted me for his care and well being and I in turn trusted my vet - the thought that between us we have brought his life to an unpleasant, painful and premature end will haunt me forever.


----------



## bluecordelia

Just not to feel left out blue was sick loads yesterday am. I think it was greedy pigging of breakfast so left her until tea. All seems ok . 

Good news roman x


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> Just not to feel left out blue was sick loads yesterday am. I think it was greedy pigging of breakfast so left her until tea. All seems ok .
> 
> Good news roman x


I'm sorry to hear this BC. I was under the impression that her symptoms have always been at the rear end; fingers crossed that this was just a " one off".


----------



## bluecordelia

Forester said:


> I'm sorry to hear this BC. I was under the impression that her symptoms have always been at the rear end; fingers crossed that this was just a " one off".


Hi Forrester 
Yes she is a poopy ib'er. We seem to be ok again..not sure if the heat is affecting her.

Hope everyone else ok x


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Hope everyone doing ok today
> 
> I spoke to Patricia, she said reduce the Pred by half for 2 weeks and then to call her with an update. She said she'd been discussing Roman with one of her colleagues and they'd like another poo sample done to test again for TF. So need to collect a fresh sample and take straight to my vet, not sure how easy that's going to be as she said it has to be fresh!
> 
> She asked about his diet, I explained what I'm doing with the set meal times and the skippy, and what he's poo's been like. She seemed a bit taken back by the kangaroo, and asked where it came from
> 
> There were no poo's over night or by the time I'd left for work, Just got home for lunch to another goodish poo
> 
> xx


All still sounds positive :thumbsup: Keep it up Roman


----------



## sarahecp

Pleased to hear Blue is ok now  

Roman's had his second good poo of the day   


Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## buffie

bluecordelia said:


> Just not to feel left out blue was sick loads yesterday am. I think it was greedy pigging of breakfast so left her until tea. All seems ok .
> 
> Good news roman x


Sorry to read about Blue  paws crossed you are right and it was just the result of over indulging with her breakfast .

Hope Dylan and Riley are okay


----------



## Forester

How are Blue, Meeko, Riley and Roman today? ( decided on alpha order )

Dylan seems " o k". He hasn't been sick for 11 days but does little but eat , sleep and enjoy cuddles. No doubt due to the pred. I'm assuming that the DR was a " one off".

Nicola, I'm hoping that you're now feeling back to normal. Please give Badger and Foxy a cuddle each from me. Sending " get well soon " wishes for Foxy.

love to all, masters, mistresses, slaves and hogs.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> How are Blue, Meeko, Riley and Roman today? ( decided on alpha order )
> 
> Dylan seems " o k". He hasn't been sick for 11 days but does little but eat , sleep and enjoy cuddles. No doubt due to the pred. I'm assuming that the DR was a " one off".
> 
> Nicola, I'm hoping that you're now feeling back to normal. Please give Badger and Foxy a cuddle each from me. Sending " get well soon " wishes for Foxy.
> 
> love to all, masters, mistresses, slaves and hogs.


Glad to hear Dylan seems ok  hope he continues to be vomit free 

Roman is the same, rather sleepy and is still quite clingy and comes for more cuddles than usual, wouldn't let me have a shower this morning and wanted cuddling, I got one in the end and enjoyed our cuddles 

Things are still quite good on the poo front, only one in the tray when I got up this morning and no more since, still haven't had the chance to collect a fresh sample yet, hoping he does in the morning so I can take it straight to the vet.

He's still eating the skippy and a lot less dry, he's defiantly bored of it now.

Hope everyone else is doing well.

Glad it's Friday   xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Glad to hear Dylan seems ok  hope he continues to be vomit free
> 
> Roman is the same, rather sleepy and is still quite clingy and comes for more cuddles than usual, wouldn't let me have a shower this morning and wanted cuddling, I got one in the end and enjoyed our cuddles
> 
> Things are still quite good on the poo front, only one in the tray when I got up this morning and no more since, still haven't had the chance to collect a fresh sample yet, hoping he does in the morning so I can take it straight to the vet.
> 
> He's still eating the skippy and a lot less dry, he's defiantly bored of it now.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing well.
> 
> Glad it's Friday   xx


Its sounding good ( apart from not letting you shower )

When do you start to reduce Roman's pred?


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Its sounding good ( apart from not letting you shower )
> 
> When do you start to reduce Roman's pred?


I started yesterday, gone from 10mg a day to 5mg a day. So I'm just giving it to him in the mornings, this is for 2 weeks then I need to ring Patricia.


----------



## nicolaa123

We are ok thanks..Riley is pretty much back to normal now I'm back at work.

&#128561;

Hope everyone else is doing okay &#128512;


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> We are ok thanks..Riley is pretty much back to normal now I'm back at work.
> 
> 😱
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing okay 😀


Glad to to hear Riley is back to normal 

You know this means you can no longer have time off work


----------



## nicolaa123

Just had a message, badger went downhill again and went to 80g he was in pain and his tummy was bloated..he was euthanised this morning, the vet thinks his gut never developed properly and could have been peritonitis. Foxy is doing ok but keeps crying and looking for her brother 

Sleep tight little badger xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Just had a message, badger went downhill again and went to 80g he was in pain and his tummy was bloated..he was euthanised this morning, the vet thinks his gut never developed properly and could have been peritonitis. Foxy is doing ok but keeps crying and looking for her brother
> 
> Sleep tight little badger xx


Oh no. What rotten news.

R I P little Badger.

Come on Foxy, fight girl, keep going little one.


----------



## bluecordelia

nicolaa123 said:


> Just had a message, badger went downhill again and went to 80g he was in pain and his tummy was bloated..he was euthanised this morning, the vet thinks his gut never developed properly and could have been peritonitis. Foxy is doing ok but keeps crying and looking for her brother
> 
> Sleep tight little badger xx


So sorry for him. Life is cruel x


----------



## bluecordelia

Roman looks so much older now but still cute. Maybe the cuddles are as he feels so much better. Blue when less poopy git happy to be snuggled and began purring. 

Everyone have a good weekend. X


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Just had a message, badger went downhill again and went to 80g he was in pain and his tummy was bloated..he was euthanised this morning, the vet thinks his gut never developed properly and could have been peritonitis. Foxy is doing ok but keeps crying and looking for her brother
> 
> Sleep tight little badger xx


Oh no :crying:  RIP Badger, run free at the bridge little spiky boy xx

Oh bless Foxy  xx hope she'll be ok.


----------



## sarahecp

Morning 

Been up since just after 4 this morning, thunder rumbling and cracking, couldn't get back to sleep 

Roman has just had a runny poo  we've had a few good days and I know there's going to be not so good ones too. Not going to stress! I've taken a sample, will drop off at the vets at 8, it's as fresh as it's going to be. 

Do you think the runny poo has something to do with reducing the Pred? 

I'm off to a cat show at Bracknell today, meeting up with Roman's breeder for brekkie and a catch up  

Have a good Caturday  and catch up later  xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Morning
> 
> Been up since just after 4 this morning, thunder rumbling and cracking, couldn't get back to sleep
> 
> Roman has just had a runny poo  we've had a few good days and I know there's going to be not so good ones too. Not going to stress! I've taken a sample, will drop off at the vets at 8, it's as fresh as it's going to be.
> 
> Do you think the runny poo has something to do with reducing the Pred?
> 
> I'm off to a cat show at Bracknell today, meeting up with Roman's breeder for brekkie and a catch up
> 
> Have a good Caturday  and catch up later  xx


Missed a day and things moved on again,what a pain Roman having a runny bum again but as you say don't stress about it,it may be the drop in the pred but I have no personal experience to go on here as it did nothing for Meeko at all.Hope the sample shows up something or can at least rule things out.
Have a nice day at the Cat Show x


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> How are Blue, Meeko, Riley and Roman today? ( decided on alpha order )
> 
> Dylan seems " o k". He hasn't been sick for 11 days but does little but eat , sleep and enjoy cuddles. No doubt due to the pred. I'm assuming that the DR was a " one off".
> 
> Nicola, I'm hoping that you're now feeling back to normal. Please give Badger and Foxy a cuddle each from me. Sending " get well soon " wishes for Foxy.
> 
> love to all, masters, mistresses, slaves and hogs.


Good news on the lack of vomit paws crossed it continues,Meeko is still doing okay but has started his small amount of vomit every 4/5 days again.There is little we can do about it so as long as he isn't losing weight or looking ill there isn't any sense stressing him by going to the vet.



nicolaa123 said:


> Just had a message, badger went downhill again and went to 80g he was in pain and his tummy was bloated..he was euthanised this morning, the vet thinks his gut never developed properly and could have been peritonitis. Foxy is doing ok but keeps crying and looking for her brother
> 
> Sleep tight little badger xx


Was just going to say good to read that Riley seemed back to his version of normal when I saw your post about Badger  RIP litte guy hope Foxy continues to thrive.



bluecordelia said:


> Roman looks so much older now but still cute. Maybe the cuddles are as he feels so much better. Blue when less poopy git happy to be snuggled and began purring.
> 
> Everyone have a good weekend. X


 Have a good w/end too BC


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Morning
> 
> Been up since just after 4 this morning, thunder rumbling and cracking, couldn't get back to sleep
> 
> Roman has just had a runny poo  we've had a few good days and I know there's going to be not so good ones too. Not going to stress! I've taken a sample, will drop off at the vets at 8, it's as fresh as it's going to be.
> 
> Do you think the runny poo has something to do with reducing the Pred?
> 
> I'm off to a cat show at Bracknell today, meeting up with Roman's breeder for brekkie and a catch up
> 
> Have a good Caturday  and catch up later  xx


At least you have managed to get a fresh sample for testing :thumbsup:

I'm sorry but I haven't yet got any experience of reducing a pred. dose so I don't know whether that's likely to be the reason for the runny poo.

I hope that you're having a good time at the show.

B C Well done for spotting the new Roman in Sarah's siggy. I hadn't spotted it but then maybe I haven't seen it before now.

buffie, I'm sorry that Meeko's vomiting is a little more frequent than it has been. Do you think that it might be connected to the deteriorating weather and less time in his wonderful run. ?

Nicola, Its great that Riley is more settled again. I expect that he's happy to have your undivided attention when you are home.

Sorry if I've missed anything. This thread seems to move so quickly these days that I find it quite difficult to keep track of whats happening.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> At least you have managed to get a fresh sample for testing :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm sorry but I haven't yet got any experience of reducing a pred. dose so I don't know whether that's likely to be the reason for the runny poo.
> 
> I hope that you're having a good time at the show.
> 
> B C Well done for spotting the new Roman in Sarah's siggy. I hadn't spotted it but then maybe I haven't seen it before now.
> 
> buffie, I'm sorry that Meeko's vomiting is a little more frequent than it has been. Do you think that it might be connected to the deteriorating weather and less time in his wonderful run. ?
> 
> Nicola, Its great that Riley is more settled again. I expect that he's happy to have your undivided attention when you are home.
> 
> *Sorry if I've missed anything. This thread seems to move so quickly these days that I find it quite difficult to keep track of whats happening*.


Not just me then 
I really don't know what is causing it.He can go for weeks with only the occasional vomit and then starts the frequent vomiting 
No change in food or anything else that I can think of,last year he went nearly 6 months with no vomit at all .


----------



## sarahecp

It's my fault with all my updates  sorry x

Buffie, sorry to hear Meeko has been vomiting  hope it doesn't continue for too long. 

Took the sample in, vet said I need to take one in on a weekday as they have no courier at the weekends to take to the external lab  so hope I can get one fir Monday. 

No poo when I got home.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Not just me then
> I really don't know what is causing it.He can go for weeks with only the occasional vomit and then starts the frequent vomiting
> No change in food or anything else that I can think of,last year he went nearly 6 months with no vomit at all .


Re keeping up with the thread. I find it very difficult to remember what was said in the posts just prior to the ones which appear at the bottom of the page when you're posting. IYKWIM.I blame my age. I also find that, quite often, so much has been said that to reply to it all would take me pages and pages. I don't mean to ignore things which are said its just that often there is just far too much to reply to.:rolleyes5:

buffie, Do you remember ( probably a silly question  ) what time of year Meeko had his 6 month spell of not vomiting? Was it during the summer when he was able to spend more time outside?

I'm moving more and more towards BC's philosophy that a holistic approach needs to be taken with IBD.

Vibes for solid poo and no vomiting to all masters and mistresses.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> It's my fault with all my updates  sorry x


Only just spotted this.*It is NOT your fault* Sorry for shouting.

Lots of updates are good. It helps you to get feedback and it helps everyone else to know what is going on. 

This is a support network, and a very good one IMHO.

Its *my *fault that I'm getting old and forgetful.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Took the sample in, vet said I need to take one in on a weekday as they have no courier at the weekends to take to the external lab  so hope I can get one fir Monday.
> 
> No poo when I got home.


What a shame that it was no good after you'd collected it. Are you able to call in to the vets on your way to work with a sample ?

*I'm*responsible for there being so many posts because I make a new post before I've identified all that I want to comment on.


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> *It's my fault with all my updates  sorry x*
> 
> Buffie, sorry to hear Meeko has been vomiting  hope it doesn't continue for too long.
> 
> Took the sample in, vet said I need to take one in on a weekday as they have no courier at the weekends to take to the external lab  so hope I can get one fir Monday.
> 
> No poo when I got home.


Oh Sarah its not a fault,yours or anyone elses Its just trying to remember to answer everyone who posted if I havnt been keeping an eye on the thread for a day or 2,as Forrester says updates are good 
What a nuisance the sample wasn't any good ,it would have been helpful if the vet had said w/end wasn't any good 
Hope the rest of the w/end is dire rear free 

I've kind of stopped worrying when Meeko is sick,there is not a lot we can do and vet isn't worried as long as it isn't more frequent or he starts to lose weight.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Re keeping up with the thread. I find it very difficult to remember what was said in the posts just prior to the ones which appear at the bottom of the page when you're posting. IYKWIM.I blame my age. I also find that, quite often, so much has been said that to reply to it all would take me pages and pages. I don't mean to ignore things which are said its just that often there is just far too much to reply to.:rolleyes5:
> 
> *buffie, Do you remember ( probably a silly question  ) what time of year Meeko had his 6 month spell of not vomiting? Was it during the summer when he was able to spend more time outside? *
> 
> I'm moving more and more towards BC's philosophy that a holistic approach needs to be taken with IBD.
> 
> Vibes for solid poo and no vomiting to all masters and mistresses.


I know exactly when it was  ,it was January 2013 through to July 2013 .I thought at first it was the hot spell that set him off as he was moulting like mad and throwing up hairballs ,but it just didn't stop .
He was quite unwell for a while after it and he has never really gone back to being right since.
You could have something with the holistic approach .


----------



## sarahecp

I admit, I find it hard keeping up sometimes too. Updates are good   I like to update while I remember things, brain like a sieve  I used to have a great memory, I'm blaming my age too!  if it's not on a post it note or reminder in my phone, then I get brain block  

I can drop a sample off on my way to work, I start work at 7 so vet said to put the sample bottle in an envelope and put in their post box outside and reception will collect from the box when they get there at 8. 

Roman isn't eating much of the dry at the moment even though he's still only getting a teaspoon of the skippy and he's eating that with enthusiasm  I'm not ready to increase it yet especially after the runny poo this morning.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> I know exactly when it was  ,it was January 2013 through to July 2013 .I thought at first it was the hot spell that set him off as he was moulting like mad and throwing up hairballs ,but it just didn't stop .
> He was quite unwell for a while after it and he has never really gone back to being right since.
> You could have something with the holistic approach .


I *knew *that you would know when it was. Your answer has , however, dashed my theory that it could be related to time spent outside promoting mental relaxation.

Its interesting that you mention the hairballs. The first of Dylan's last cluster of vomits contained quite a lot of hair. That is the only time that he has produced anything even remotely resembling a hairball though.

Just wondered whether Meeko's urinary problems corresponded with any change in his vomiting.

IBD seems more mystifying the more you think about it.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I *knew *that you would know when it was. Your answer has , however, dashed my theory that it could be related to time spent outside promoting mental relaxation.
> 
> Its interesting that you mention the hairballs. The first of Dylan's last cluster of vomits contained quite a lot of hair. That is the only time that he has produced anything even remotely resembling a hairball though.
> 
> Just wondered whether Meeko's urinary problems corresponded with any change in his vomiting.
> 
> IBD seems more mystifying the more you think about it.


IBD confuses the life out of me


----------



## nicolaa123

I've given up trying to understand ibd 

Sarah, the runny poo could possibly linked to the thunderstorm last night, it literately shook my house!! I do think stress is very much linked to causing flare ups with ibd and it could well be the noise bought it on..

I agree with buffie, the actual symptoms whether it be sickness or the other end will never stop completely, to have them as less as possible is the dream but they have to be managed. What I do really keep an eye on is weight and condition and whether he is in pain.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I've given up trying to understand ibd
> 
> Sarah, the runny poo could possibly linked to the thunderstorm last night, it literately shook my house!! I do think stress is very much linked to causing flare ups with ibd and it could well be the noise bought it on..
> 
> I agree with buffie, the actual symptoms whether it be sickness or the other end will never stop completely, to have them as less as possible is the dream but they have to be managed. What I do really keep an eye on is weight and condition and whether he is in pain.


I didn't think about the storm upsetting him, they don't seem to bother him and he's happy to watch from the window, doesn't really mean he's not stressing about it, you could be on to something there.

Weight and condition does worry me, but my own vet and Patricia have both said he has good condition and weight  it does make me sad to think he's in pain 

Think I need to stop worrying!!


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I *knew *that you would know when it was. Your answer has , however, dashed my theory that it could be related to time spent outside promoting mental relaxation.
> 
> Its interesting that you mention the hairballs. The first of Dylan's last cluster of vomits contained quite a lot of hair. That is the only time that he has produced anything even remotely resembling a hairball though.
> 
> Just wondered whether Meeko's urinary problems corresponded with any change in his vomiting.
> 
> IBD seems more mystifying the more you think about it.


Not sure whether you read either of these links posted by Shoshannah

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/363061-hairballs-they-normal.html

and this on urinary probs

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/362514-recurrent-cystitis-afternoon-reading.html

they make interesting reading.

Meeko's urinary problems were found when he was at the referral centre.They took a u/s as part of their normal checks,he was showing no outward signs of anything being wrong and yet there was blood in it and the spec gravity was off the scale.

The specialist vet thought that there may have been a connection between it and his IBD


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Not sure whether you read either of these links posted by Shoshannah
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/363061-hairballs-they-normal.html
> 
> and this on urinary probs
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/362514-recurrent-cystitis-afternoon-reading.html
> 
> they make interesting reading.
> 
> Meeko's urinary problems were found when he was at the referral centre.They took a u/s as part of their normal checks,he was showing no outward signs of anything being wrong and yet there was blood in it and the spec gravity was off the scale.
> 
> The specialist vet thought that there may have been a connection between it and his IBD


Thanks for the links to Shoshannah's posts. I read them at the time they were originally posted but think that I might benefit from re reading.

I do remember Meeko's urinary problems being mentioned by the Referral Centre ( it had me quite confused, nothing unusual there then). I'm interested to know whether the referral was made following a particular flare up.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Thanks for the links to Shoshannah's posts. I read them at the time they were originally posted but think that I might benefit from re reading.
> 
> I do remember Meeko's urinary problems being mentioned by the Referral Centre ( it had me quite confused, nothing unusual there then). I'm interested to know whether the referral was made following a particular flare up.


It was after a flare up in December/January this year.
After an in depth discussion with my vet we decided as he had tried everything he knew of and wasn't getting any real improvement, the next step was to refer Meeko to the specialist at the Royal(Dick) Veterinary College .
My vet had already asked for their input when he first did the endoscopy and they said they had a more advanced instrument which could go deeper in to his intestines.
So the appointment was made and off we went which as I have said before really was a waste of time as I was left with more questions than answers ,and they didn't do the endoscopy


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> It was after a flare up in December/January this year.
> After an in depth discussion with my vet we decided as he had tried everything he knew of and wasn't getting any real improvement, the next step was to refer Meeko to the specialist at the Royal(Dick) Veterinary College .
> My vet had already asked for their input when he first did the endoscopy and they said they had a more advanced instrument which could go deeper in to his intestines.
> So the appointment was made and off we went which as I have said before really was a waste of time as I was left with more questions than answers ,and they didn't do the endoscopy


I hadn't realised that Meeko *didn't have an endoscopy *at the Royal ( Dick) Veterinary College. What reason did they give for not doing it?

I'm also intrigued by why they concentrated on looking at his urine.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I hadn't realised that Meeko *didn't have an endoscopy *at the Royal ( Dick) Veterinary College. *What reason did they give for not doing it? *
> I'm also intrigued by why they concentrated on looking at his urine.


Oops got side tracked.
To be honest I didn't ask,I was just glad to get Meeko home.
They had him under anaesthetic for over an hour doing xrays/ultra scans and from what I could gather,maybe wrongly,were using him as a guinea pig to teach the students.
Maybe their intention was not to do the endoscopy,but myself and his vet thought it was,after all it was the referral vet who said she might get a better result than they had with their more sophisticated equipment.

They didn't really concentrate on the urine results but did comment that they thought it was most likely brought on by stress caused by the IBD.They did bacteria cultures which came back clear of any infection.

I was as you may gather not very impressed with them,they were very professional,caring and thorough but as far as I was concerned I was left no further forward.


----------



## sarahecp

Morning all 

This mornings poo was better than yesterday's  runny with some firm bits  

The boys are getting used to eating separately now, I'm getting less grumpy looks from Roman when I close the kitchen door  I've never know a cat with so many different facial expressions, he screws his nose up when he's grumpy  

Frank and Seb still don't like the idea of not being free fed, but I'm sure they'll get used to it, but at least I'm managing to get them eating wet food again  

Hope everyone is doing ok  xx


----------



## sarahecp

Been working on my food list again today, adding more foods including treats Roman has ever eaten since his problem started, hopefully I can post my list soon, it's not looking too good in terms of what has agreed with him  looking at what I've got so far I think it's helping on what needs to be avoided.

My brain has been working overtime


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Been working on my food list again today, adding more foods including treats Roman has ever eaten since his problem started, hopefully I can post my list soon, it's not looking too good in terms of what has agreed with him  looking at what I've got so far I think it's helping on what needs to be avoided.
> 
> My brain has been working overtime


Meeko's food list wouldn't take long There is so much that he just refuses to even taste that it doesn't leave a lot to be in the good list or the bad list 
Hope all your hard work gives you a better idea as to what is triggering Romans problems .


----------



## Forester

I'm afraid that Dylan's food list would be non existent..

He is willing to eat most things however I haven't managed to identify a single ingredient/ protein/product which he hasn't been sick with. I have however identified proteins/ products where he is *less likely*to be sick ( well I think so anyway   ). For him, timing of meals seems to be important, as does the size of the meal. I think that raw/cooked may also be a factor.

As my vet said to a student one day " this one's a mystery ".

On a more positive note , we have gone 13 days vomit free. He's looking well; although , since on the pred. , tells me that he's always hungry. I fed him at 7.45, and all was consumed within 15 seconds. 10 minutes later I heard him calling out as if something terrible was wrong. I rushed towards the kitchen where he had been, only for him to lead me to his dish and look up at me obviously asking for more. He's now gone to sleep beside me as no more food was forthcoming.

Hope that this post finds everyone " o k "

Nicola, I've been thinking about Foxy today and hoping that she is improving.


----------



## sarahecp

Roman's list isn't that long either  fussy so and so  

Pleased to hear Dylan has been vomit free for 13 days  keep it up Dylan  

Quick update - Roman only had the one poo yesterday. Had a call from OH after I'd left for work to say he'd had a 'hard one'  he's learning and loking  took early lunch so I could get it to the vets, will be couriered to the lab this afternoon. So will wait and see. 

Need more Pred, only have enough for 4 days, receptionist wouldn't give me any as need approval from Davies, called them, Patricia is on hols so they will get someone else to give me a call, nothing as yet but I expect they are busy. 

Hope everyone is ok  xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Interesting about the fur balls. Last time blue was poorly for a few days was earlier this year. She was passing fur balls in her poo. I read the articles on normal..who knows what normal is anymore! 

Blues list of ok food has got bigger.. She can be a pig so i always mush food with warm water. She starts eating by lapping the fluid. We still are seeing in an empty tray but she is outside now for pooping. 

Hope everyone is ok x


----------



## nicolaa123

We are ok..foxy is starting to do better, thankfully.

Sarah I'm surprised that your vet can't give you some more pred..hopefully you will get it sorted..

Pleased to hear poo is harder and Dylan is vomit free and that blue is doing better and Meeko is ok &#128522;


----------



## sarahecp

We've had another good poo this evening 

Pleased to hear Blue is doing ok 



nicolaa123 said:


> We are ok..foxy is starting to do better, thankfully.
> 
> Sarah I'm surprised that your vet can't give you some more pred..hopefully you will get it sorted..
> 
> Pleased to hear poo is harder and Dylan is vomit free and that blue is doing better and Meeko is ok 😊


Pleased you and Riley are ok and Foxy is doing better 

I didn't get a call back from Davies, I think it was just the receptionist at my vets, she is a bit of a funny one sometimes  I will call Davies again in the morning and also call and ask to speak to my own vet.


----------



## LDK1

Hi all!

Like others have said, I struggle to keep up with this fast-moving thread, but here's a little update:

Rosie's diet trial has not gone well and I've temporarily stopped it. The dry z/d seemed to be causing different issues like huge hairballs in the vomit and lethargy. The vomiting has also increased to almost daily now.

I am quite upset at the moment as two vets I have spoken to want me to keep going with the dry z/d, despite my concerns. They say that the hairballs are perfectly normal and that an all dry diet is fine. They seem to be ignoring the increase in vomiting. I find this attitude very depressing in young vets. They also do not recommend using a novel protein for the trial. 

Anyway, my question is, has anyone here actually successfully completed a 6-8 week food trial? If so, what food did you use and what did you learn, if anything, from doing it?

Many thanks in advance and best wishes to kitties and slaves.

PS, apart from a month long bout of diarrhea/colitis, Rosie's main issue is vomiting after eating. I would say her poo has always been excessively smelly which probably isn't normal for a virtually grain free (apart from wholegrain rice) wet diet. She has been diagnosed with 'a form of IBD' but I'm not sure if it is exactly the same issue as what you all seem to be experiencing, e.g. no regular diarrhea and she has never lost any weight.


----------



## buffie

LDK1 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Like others have said, I struggle to keep up with this fast-moving thread, but here's a little update:
> 
> Rosie's diet trial has not gone well and I've temporarily stopped it. The dry z/d seemed to be causing different issues like huge hairballs in the vomit and lethargy. The vomiting has also increased to almost daily now.
> 
> I am quite upset at the moment as two vets I have spoken to want me to keep going with the dry z/d, despite my concerns. They say that the hairballs are perfectly normal and that an all dry diet is fine. They seem to be ignoring the increase in vomiting. I find this attitude very depressing in young vets. They also do not recommend using a novel protein for the trial.
> 
> Anyway, my question is, has anyone here actually successfully completed a 6-8 week food trial? If so, what food did you use and what did you learn, if anything, from doing it?
> 
> Many thanks in advance and best wishes to kitties and slaves.
> 
> PS, apart from a month long bout of diarrhea/colitis, Rosie's main issue is vomiting after eating. I would say her poo has always been excessively smelly which probably isn't normal for a virtually grain free (apart from wholegrain rice) wet diet. She has been diagnosed with 'a form of IBD' but I'm not sure if it is exactly the same issue as what you all seem to be experiencing, e.g. no regular diarrhea and she has never lost any weight.


Hi LDK1 Nicola is the person to answer your queries about food trials as she seems to have had a bit of success with Riley.
Meeko my Raggie has upper digestive IBD ,resulting in him vomiting occasionally,usually once a week.
He also has slow gut motility which showed up on an xray when although having been starved from midnight he still had a small amount of food in his stomach 12 hours later.
I tried to put him on the hydrolyzed protein (hills z/d) but he was not having any of it,but then he is a very fussy cat Tough love over food doesn't work with him as he is not food orientated.
I'm surprised and a bit concerned that your vet would suggest hairballs are normal ,not so surprised about the dry food thoughts though 
I imagine you have read this thread posted by Shoshannah.........http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-and-nutrition/363061-hairballs-they-normal.html
My vet agrees with her,we had a discussion right at the beginning when Meeko was first being sick , he told me then that it shouldn't be considered normal when a cat vomits regular hair balls.
I really have no new advice to offer you as I'm winging it with Meeko now,we have tried most foods/had scans/xrays/endoscopy with pinch biopsies and blood tests and still he has issues


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> We've had another good poo this evening
> 
> Pleased to hear Blue is doing ok
> 
> Pleased you and Riley are ok and Foxy is doing better
> 
> I didn't get a call back from Davies, I think it was just the receptionist at my vets, she is a bit of a funny one sometimes  I will call Davies again in the morning and also call and ask to speak to my own vet.


Hope Roman is still producing the "goods" also hope you get the pred sorted,a good receptionist is worth their weight in gold but sometimes they can be a real PITA

Hope Riley,Dylan and Blue are okay too.
Meeko is just the same,still being a fussy sod with food and still returning some for inspection


----------



## Forester

-


LDK1 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Like others have said, I struggle to keep up with this fast-moving thread, but here's a little update:
> 
> Rosie's diet trial has not gone well and I've temporarily stopped it. The dry z/d seemed to be causing different issues like huge hairballs in the vomit and lethargy. The vomiting has also increased to almost daily now.
> 
> I am quite upset at the moment as two vets I have spoken to want me to keep going with the dry z/d, despite my concerns. They say that the hairballs are perfectly normal and that an all dry diet is fine. They seem to be ignoring the increase in vomiting. I find this attitude very depressing in young vets. They also do not recommend using a novel protein for the trial.
> 
> Anyway, my question is, has anyone here actually successfully completed a 6-8 week food trial? If so, what food did you use and what did you learn, if anything, from doing it?
> 
> Many thanks in advance and best wishes to kitties and slaves.
> 
> PS, apart from a month long bout of diarrhea/colitis, Rosie's main issue is vomiting after eating. I would say her poo has always been excessively smelly which probably isn't normal for a virtually grain free (apart from wholegrain rice) wet diet. She has been diagnosed with 'a form of IBD' but I'm not sure if it is exactly the same issue as what you all seem to be experiencing, e.g. no regular diarrhea and she has never lost any weight.


Hi LDK . I suppose that I'm in a fairly similar situation to you as Dylan's problem is also vomiting.

My vet's idea of a diet trial was to put Dylan onto Royal Canin Sensitivity Control pouches for a month. He had been vomiting about once a week which suddenly escalated to 3 times in 2 days. ( The 3 times in 2 days had immediately followed Dylan consuming some unattended porridge   ). My vets idea was that putting him on to the SC would tell us whether he had a food sensitivity or not.
I suggested a novel protein but this idea was dismissed. He initially went 23 days without vomiting but then vomited several times in quick succession . I " adjusted" the trial as I didn't like the cereals and sugars in the SC. I was told that I'd totally messed things up. so we would have to start again with Royal Canin Gastrointestinal pouches. She wanted me to use a dry food with a different protein but I refused to feed dry.

TBH I don't think that we have learnt much from the diet trial but the vet says that Dylan " is a mystery".

I have learnt a little from altering meal times and meal sizes but unfortunately this just changed the pattern of the vomiting rather than stopped it.

I have found that some foods seem to exascerbate his vomiting but none that make him vomit free. 
Similarly to Meeko, Dylan has had blood tests, endoscopy with pinch biopsies and x rays . All of these have revealed....absolutely nothing. We are currently trying a course of prednisolone which has helped immensely however whether the vomiting will resume when the course is finished remains to be seen.

Dylan's poo is generally " normal" and not very smelly.

I hope that the information I've posted seems relevant to your question.

Sending positive vibes to you and Rosie as well as to Blue, Meeko, Riley and Roman


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Like others have said, I struggle to keep up with this fast-moving thread, but here's a little update:
> 
> Rosie's diet trial has not gone well and I've temporarily stopped it. The dry z/d seemed to be causing different issues like huge hairballs in the vomit and lethargy. The vomiting has also increased to almost daily now.
> 
> I am quite upset at the moment as two vets I have spoken to want me to keep going with the dry z/d, despite my concerns. They say that the hairballs are perfectly normal and that an all dry diet is fine. They seem to be ignoring the increase in vomiting. I find this attitude very depressing in young vets. They also do not recommend using a novel protein for the trial.
> 
> Anyway, my question is, has anyone here actually successfully completed a 6-8 week food trial? If so, what food did you use and what did you learn, if anything, from doing it?
> 
> Many thanks in advance and best wishes to kitties and slaves.
> 
> PS, apart from a month long bout of diarrhea/colitis, Rosie's main issue is vomiting after eating. I would say her poo has always been excessively smelly which probably isn't normal for a virtually grain free (apart from wholegrain rice) wet diet. She has been diagnosed with 'a form of IBD' but I'm not sure if it is exactly the same issue as what you all seem to be experiencing, e.g. no regular diarrhea and she has never lost any weight.


Sorry to hear the food trials haven't gone too well with Rosie  Roman being the fussy so and he is wouldn't touch most if the food, the look and smell of most of them I don't blame him. I would be upset too, both my own vet and the one at the referral centre didn't recommend a novel protein diet, just to try the hypoallergenic foods by Hills and RC. If it wasn't for the advice and support from the lovely ladies on here I don't think I'd be seeing an improving with Roman.

Like Buffie says, Nicola is the best one to advise 

I really hope you can get the right foods that Rosie will eat and agree with her and she's feeling better soon xx


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> -
> 
> Hi LDK . I suppose that I'm in a fairly similar situation to you as Dylan's problem is also vomiting.
> 
> My vet's idea of a diet trial was to put Dylan onto Royal Canin Sensitivity Control pouches for a month. He had been vomiting about once a week which suddenly escalated to 3 times in 2 days. ( The 3 times in 2 days had immediately followed Dylan consuming some unattended porridge   ). My vets idea was that putting him on to the SC would tell us whether he had a food sensitivity or not.
> I suggested a novel protein but this idea was dismissed. He initially went 23 days without vomiting but then vomited several times in quick succession . I " adjusted" the trial as I didn't like the cereals and sugars in the SC. I was told that I'd totally messed things up. so we would have to start again with Royal Canin Gastrointestinal pouches. She wanted me to use a dry food with a different protein but I refused to feed dry.
> 
> TBH I don't think that we have learnt much from the diet trial but the vet says that Dylan " is a mystery".
> 
> I have learnt a little from altering meal times and meal sizes but unfortunately this just changed the pattern of the vomiting rather than stopped it.
> 
> I have found that some foods seem to exascerbate his vomiting but none that make him vomit free.
> Similarly to Meeko, Dylan has had blood tests, endoscopy with pinch biopsies and x rays . All of these have revealed....absolutely nothing. We are currently trying a course of prednisolone which has helped immensely however whether the vomiting will resume when the course is finished remains to be seen.
> 
> Dylan's poo is generally " normal" and not very smelly.
> 
> I hope that the information I've posted seems relevant to your question.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to you and Rosie as well as to Blue, Meeko, Riley and Roman


Thanks a lot for the info. Crikey, there really are a lot of similarities here - barring the porridge!

I don't believe for one minute that any of these issues "are a mystery" - as some vets seem to suggest. My vet took a similar view, but as far as I'm concerned, there is a reason for everything. They just don't know enough about how cats really work to figure it out.

It is very frustrating to be told that the horrendously large hairballs in Rosie's vomit are 'perfectly normal' when it never happened before being put on dry z/d - they just don't seem to be listening, let alone trying to figure out why that might be the case. 

What I wouldn't give to have Dr. Karen Becker living round the corner from me - if anyone's ever heard of her?!


----------



## Forester

I should perhaps have added to my previous post that both of the " novel protein " foods which I have tried,( venison and kangaroo )caused a drastic increase in Dylan's vomiting.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Thanks a lot for the info. Crikey, there really are a lot of similarities here - barring the porridge!
> 
> I don't believe for one minute that any of these issues "are a mystery" - as some vets seem to suggest. My vet took a similar view, but as far as I'm concerned, there is a reason for everything. They just don't know enough about how cats really work to figure it out.
> 
> It is very frustrating to be told that the horrendously large hairballs in Rosie's vomit are 'perfectly normal' when it never happened before being put on dry z/d - they just don't seem to be listening, let alone trying to figure out why that might be the case.
> 
> What I wouldn't give to have Dr. Karen Becker living round the corner from me - if anyone's ever heard of her?!


If you find such a house, would you like a lodger, complete with cat ?


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> I should perhaps have added to my previous post that both of the " novel protein " foods which I have tried,( venison and kangaroo )caused a drastic increase in Dylan's vomiting.


Wow, really? Which brands were these?


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Hope Roman is still producing the "goods" also hope you get the pred sorted,a good receptionist is worth their weight in gold but sometimes they can be a real PITA
> 
> Hope Riley,Dylan and Blue are okay too.
> Meeko is just the same,still being a fussy sod with food and still returning some for inspection


No poo at all today, he ate quite well at breakfast but didn't eat his skippy, but did at lunchtime 

Spoke to Davies, and now have some more Pred 

Sorry to hear Mr M is returning some food, hopefully it gets less frequent.

Hope everyone else is doing ok today xx


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I should perhaps have added to my previous post that both of the " novel protein " foods which I have tried,( venison and kangaroo )caused a drastic increase in Dylan's vomiting.


Did you try the goat? Not you, Dylan


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Wow, really? Which brands were these?


The venison was Ropocat and the kangaroo Vet Concept. When we first had a problem with the Ropocat venison I made enquiries about what preservatives, additives were included, hoping to be able to implicate one of these . I was told that there aren't any preservatives/ additives.

When I did my " detour " from the Sensitivity Control after feeding it exclusively for a month I tried Ropocat Chicken . I thought that the same protein with no additives should be o k. Unfortunately not. It increased the vomiting. I also tried plain boiled chicken and that also caused an increase in vomiting.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Did you try the goat? Not you, Dylan


Not yet.

He was supposed to be sticking to Sensitivity Control pouches whilst we are making other changes. ( How else do we know which change has worked? )
Unfortunately, shortly after his endoscopy he refused to eat anything other than boiled rabbit. We are now on 1 pouch of SC plus 125g boiled rabbit per day. The vet wanted me to hang back on the Felini ( Thanks again  )for now as she didn't want an unknown substance added to the equation.

When I tried the kangaroo he was o k with the first can but after that was vomiting daily and looked really sorry for himself. That's when he went on hunger strike.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Not yet.
> 
> He was supposed to be sticking to Sensitivity Control pouches whilst we are making other changes. ( How else do we know which change has worked? )
> Unfortunately, shortly after his endoscopy he refused to eat anything other than boiled rabbit. We are now on 1 pouch of SC plus 125g boiled rabbit per day. The vet wanted me to hang back on the Felini ( Thanks again  )for now as she didn't want an unknown substance added to the equation.
> 
> When I tried the kangaroo he was o k with the first can but after that was vomiting daily and looked really sorry for himself. That's when he went on hunger strike.


Poor Dylan 

I've read that rabbit does help with stomach 'issues' I ordered some minced rabbit and chunks from a company beginning with W can't think of their name now  they've stopped trading I think. Roman wouldn't touch it raw or cooked  Frank loved it, preferred the raw chunks


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> The venison was Ropocat and the kangaroo Vet Concept. When we first had a problem with the Ropocat venison I made enquiries about what preservatives, additives were included, hoping to be able to implicate one of these . I was told that there aren't any preservatives/ additives.
> 
> When I did my " detour " from the Sensitivity Control after feeding it exclusively for a month I tried Ropocat Chicken . I thought that the same protein with no additives should be o k. Unfortunately not. It increased the vomiting. I also tried plain boiled chicken and that also caused an increase in vomiting.


I can see the logic in what you are trying to do.

Hmmm, I'm sure there are some clues here somewhere. It could be that certain ingredients could be culprits in themselves, or they may be exacerbating something else which is non-food related.

Who knows, it could be things like the supplement, fat or offal levels?

It could even be that if one ingredient (not necessarily the protein source) triggered a flare up in vomiting, that flare-up could take weeks to subside anyway - regardless of whether you changed the diet in the meantime.

This is why food trials take so long I guess and I can understand (up to a point) why vets might want a z/d type trial to continue - even with ongoing or worsening symptoms.

Dr. Becker actually recommends 3 months or so on one novel food to see if there is a more reliable improvement.

I have just received some Ropocat Rabbit to try for my own trial - not really novel, but she should not have developed an intolerence to it as she only had it a couple of times a few years ago - I'll let you know how it goes but am certainly open to more options if this fails.

Heck, I may even try the RC Sensitive as you seemed to have had some earlier succes there.


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone

Blue has been sick again. She was mooching for food and wolfed her tea. I am hoping she's just over done it and ate too much too quick. 

Love to all. Hope you are ok x


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Blue has been sick again. She was mooching for food and wolfed her tea. I am hoping she's just over done it and ate too much too quick.
> 
> Love to all. Hope you are ok x


Oh no  I don't know whether Blue is anything like Dylan but I find that the more recently he's vomited the more likely he is to vomit again. We tend to get " clusters " of vomits with a spell of a couple of weeks between. Its as though once something has been triggered then it takes a while to settle down again. Fingers crossed that this will be the end of Blue's vomiting. How is she with regard to the litter tray at the moment.?

I'm soo pleased that Roman's poo seems to be much better.
Sarah, was the rabbit that you had from Woldsway? I tried Dylan with some raw rabbit a few months ago but after a couple of days it started being " returned" so I abandoned it. The rabbit I've been using to boil has all been wild rabbit obtained through local butchers .

Its a b***er that Meeko is producing regular " returns" again. If only we understood how their systems work.

Sending " o k " vibes to the lovely Riley whose trials and tribulations we have all benefitted from.

love to all.


----------



## sarahecp

Sorry to hear Blue has been sick  hopefully it's a one off and she'll be ok xx

Still no poo yet today  that's not normal for Roman, I'm beginning to think nothing is normal anymore a bit like Dylan being a mystery. 

He refused the skippy at dinner time  but ate more dry. I'll try it again at supper. 

Yes it was Woldsway  I don't have many butchers close to me, the ones that are don't stock rabbit as no custom for it or there's Halal and they won't stock it


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> I can see the logic in what you are trying to do.
> 
> Hmmm, I'm sure there are some clues here somewhere. It could be that certain ingredients could be culprits in themselves, or they may be exacerbating something else which is non-food related.
> 
> Who knows, it could be things like the supplement, fat or offal levels?
> 
> It could even be that if one ingredient (not necessarily the protein source) triggered a flare up in vomiting, that flare-up could take weeks to subside anyway - regardless of whether you changed the diet in the meantime.
> 
> This is why food trials take so long I guess and I can understand (up to a point) why vets might want a z/d type trial to continue - even with ongoing or worsening symptoms.
> 
> Dr. Becker actually recommends 3 months or so on one novel food to see if there is a more reliable improvement.
> 
> I have just received some Ropocat Rabbit to try for my own trial - not really novel, but she should not have developed an intolerence to it as she only had it a couple of times a few years ago - I'll let you know how it goes but am certainly open to more options if this fails.
> 
> Heck, I may even try the RC Sensitive as you seemed to have had some earlier succes there.


I'm starting to wonder whether fat levels might be significant in Dylan's case.
Most of the Ropocat varieties which I have tried ( and been unsuccessful with ) are around 6.5% fat. A nature's menu pouch which was almost guaranteed to make him sick is also 6.5% fat but Applaws chicken breast which he has usually been o k with is 0.3% fat.

I have seen it mentioned by another poster, Chillminx, I think ,that her cats are better with low fat foods. When I get free rein ,from my vet, to try other foods I am thinking of trying the sensitive varieties of Macs as I think that they come out at around 4.5%- 4.9% fat.

I've just checked the RC Sensitivity Control pouches and they are 6.5% fat.   

When Dylan was first being sick , 90% vomiting was with breakfast . I tried an antacid but that just caused a change so that vomiting was distributed throughout the day. I have introduced 4 hourly feeding throughout the day and night and now vomiting occurs at any time during the day but never at night. Dyls vomiting occurs between 10 and 20 minutes after eating. If he lasts 30 minutes after a meal then he will be fine till at least the next meal. Any observations/ suggestions welcome.


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry, been massively busy organising this years Macmillan coffee morning...takes over my life for each September 

Ok..food trials, the theory is if the cat has not eaten the food before the food can not cause a reaction to the cat. However don't just look at the proteins, look at the whole list of ingredients. Eg there could be something in the z/d that has been eaten before that is causing the reaction, same with the parsnip in the kangaroo etc etc. the thing with scrip diets is , that there are so many ingredients in them its impossible to then know which one is causing the problem.

A raw diet is ideal as you know exactly what has gone into the meal as well you have made it yourself! Food trials should be a minimum of 6 weeks to 12 weeks, preferbly not on meds and also I would say with out being allowed out the house to eliminate a cat having a "takeaway" &#128539;

If you think back to being at school and doing a scientific experiment, everything should be the same but one change at a time. I liken this to ibd, to really understand what is happening (to the best of our ability) is to change only one variable at a time, with everything else being the same.

As for a cat being a mystery, with ibd I can well believe this, despite searching and searching, there are no cases I have found that have had that cure, symptoms can be controlled with food, meds, environment or a combination of them, but ibd can not be cured I'm afraid 

With riley he is still on his food trial more than a year down the line..he can and still does have reactions to the food (is that the food or something else) trust me question drives me insane.

What I work on with him is does he have a reaction with in 4 days, if he does then it's a no no, if I get longer than that could be a maybe etc etc. I will try the goat again with him, as I still hope it could be a maybe food, maybe a once in a while food for him, but a maybe at least.

From what I've learnt over time, don't get too focused on finding the holy grail food as it may not exist, you will hopefully find a food that does not cause a reaction 100 % of the time tho..

Ibd is much more complicated than just a food issue, for example if riley has a poo earlier than he did the day before, it will be runny, if he poo's at the same ish time each day no issues..now that can't be just down to food..

But then with riley, it's not a food related issue as such, his body rejects food either the fastes way..through the back end and or does not take the nutrients from the food, ie the weight loss and loss of condiiton. If I stopped giving him the chlorambucil each week he would no doubt die as its the immunosuppressive element that stops his body thinking that food is a foreign substance that has to be attacked.

I think some vets do think it's a case that the cat has a sensitive tummy therefore can be fixed by having the "right food" as they do not know enough about ibd. Therefore owners go through the vet diets believing that it's the only option. I think slyv you mentioned about looking at the hoistic way of treating and I think you are spot on..

Anyhoo I will stop now and get back to folding raffke tickets . Hope everyone is well x



Sarah, I would cut the dry a little bit to keep him on the skippy, any news when the poo results will come back?


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry, been massively busy organising this years Macmillan coffee morning...takes over my life for each September
> 
> Ok..food trials, the theory is if the cat has not eaten the food before the food can not cause a reaction to the cat. However don't just look at the proteins, look at the whole list of ingredients. Eg there could be something in the z/d that has been eaten before that is causing the reaction, same with the parsnip in the kangaroo etc etc. the thing with scrip diets is , that there are so many ingredients in them its impossible to then know which one is causing the problem.
> 
> A raw diet is ideal as you know exactly what has gone into the meal as well you have made it yourself! Food trials should be a minimum of 6 weeks to 12 weeks, preferbly not on meds and also I would say with out being allowed out the house to eliminate a cat having a "takeaway" &#55357;&#56859;
> 
> If you think back to being at school and doing a scientific experiment, everything should be the same but one change at a time. I liken this to ibd, to really understand what is happening (to the best of our ability) is to change only one variable at a time, with everything else being the same.
> 
> As for a cat being a mystery, with ibd I can well believe this, despite searching and searching, there are no cases I have found that have had that cure, symptoms can be controlled with food, meds, environment or a combination of them, but ibd can not be cured I'm afraid
> 
> With riley he is still on his food trial more than a year down the line..he can and still does have reactions to the food (is that the food or something else) trust me question drives me insane.
> 
> What I work on with him is does he have a reaction with in 4 days, if he does then it's a no no, if I get longer than that could be a maybe etc etc. I will try the goat again with him, as I still hope it could be a maybe food, maybe a once in a while food for him, but a maybe at least.
> 
> From what I've learnt over time, don't get too focused on finding the holy grail food as it may not exist, you will hopefully find a food that does not cause a reaction 100 % of the time tho..
> 
> Ibd is much more complicated than just a food issue, for example if riley has a poo earlier than he did the day before, it will be runny, if he poo's at the same ish time each day no issues..now that can't be just down to food..
> 
> But then with riley, it's not a food related issue as such, his body rejects food either the fastes way..through the back end and or does not take the nutrients from the food, ie the weight loss and loss of condiiton. If I stopped giving him the chlorambucil each week he would no doubt die as its the immunosuppressive element that stops his body thinking that food is a foreign substance that has to be attacked.
> 
> I think some vets do think it's a case that the cat has a sensitive tummy therefore can be fixed by having the "right food" as they do not know enough about ibd. Therefore owners go through the vet diets believing that it's the only option. I think slyv you mentioned about looking at the hoistic way of treating and I think you are spot on..
> 
> Anyhoo I will stop now and get back to folding raffke tickets . Hope everyone is well x
> 
> Sarah, I would cut the dry a little bit to keep him on the skippy, any news when the poo results will come back?


Thanks for this Nicola  has given me something to think about 

I have started to reduce the dry to keep him interested in the skippy, he ate about half a teaspoon full for supper. Vets will ring me when they are back, they just said a few days.


----------



## sarahecp

Hope your coffee morning goes well  we have ours at work on 1st October  x


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> I'm starting to wonder whether fat levels might be significant in Dylan's case.
> Most of the Ropocat varieties which I have tried ( and been unsuccessful with ) are around 6.5% fat. A nature's menu pouch which was almost guaranteed to make him sick is also 6.5% fat but Applaws chicken breast which he has usually been o k with is 0.3% fat.
> 
> I have seen it mentioned by another poster, Chillminx, I think ,that her cats are better with low fat foods. When I get free rein ,from my vet, to try other foods I am thinking of trying the sensitive varieties of Macs as I think that they come out at around 4.5%- 4.9% fat.
> 
> I've just checked the RC Sensitivity Control pouches and they are 6.5% fat.
> 
> When Dylan was first being sick , 90% vomiting was with breakfast . I tried an antacid but that just caused a change so that vomiting was distributed throughout the day. I have introduced 4 hourly feeding throughout the day and night and now vomiting occurs at any time during the day but never at night. Dyls vomiting occurs between 10 and 20 minutes after eating. If he lasts 30 minutes after a meal then he will be fine till at least the next meal. Any observations/ suggestions welcome.


I _so_ understand your ''s!!! I think we all want that eureka moment when we can, after some detective work, definitively put our fingers on the causes/triggers.

Again, there are similarities in your description of Dylan with how things started with Rosie, but there are also some differences too. Rosie is sick pretty much straight after eating, very rarely a few minutes later. It is mostly in the morning and lunchtime, sometimes early evening. But for a couple of occassions ever, she is never sick at her late evening feed, nor her 3:00am feed - similar to Dylan.

I am certain she feels discomfort in the morning before her 8:00am meal - she is always eating cat grass just before I feed her.

If Rosie starts cleaning her face after eating then I know she's not going to be sick for that meal! When she_ is_ sick she then pesters me for more food shortly afterwards. I give her the same food from the same tin and she is not sick! So plenty of s from me too!

Sometimes I wonder if the original thought from the vet of it being an issue with excess acid is nearer the mark than a food intolerance issue? But this is where getting a food trial done properly is so important because at least one could potentially rule out (as well as in) any protein source as the problem.

Like with you, Rosie had the Ranatidine and she seemed to improve for a short while, then got worse again - but I think there's a lot more that could be done in this area at a later date if the food trial solves nothing.


----------



## nicolaa123

Just throwing this question out for those who have ones that vomit. I know there has been discussion about hairballs and I am one that does not believe they are normal.

Now thinking about it, if I had a lot of fur lining my throat and moving down to my stomach if I ate I'm pretty sure I would throw up straight away. Bit like this morning I was brushing my teeth and some how I managed to get a hair in. Y mouth that was near the back of my throat and made me gag.

When your cat is sick, is it a sick thing or is your cat gagging like you have an irritant in your throat.

I'm wondering if a supplement to reduce the hair could also help with the vomiting..just a thought


----------



## Forester

I have wondered whether the process of vomiting hair irritates the digestive tract and makes it more sensitive and therefore more likely to vomit again. A couple of Dylan's " clusters" have started with a vomit which contained a quantity of hair.

LDK. The trial of the ranitidine was at my request. My vet initially refused to prescribe it. She said that if too much acid was present it was important to establish the cause of the excess acid. She said that using an antacid would be treating the symptom not the cause.


----------



## LDK1

nicolaa123 said:


> Just throwing this question out for those who have ones that vomit. I know there has been discussion about hairballs and I am one that does not believe they are normal.
> 
> Now thinking about it, if I had a lot of fur lining my throat and moving down to my stomach if I ate I'm pretty sure I would throw up straight away. Bit like this morning I was brushing my teeth and some how I managed to get a hair in. Y mouth that was near the back of my throat and made me gag.
> 
> When your cat is sick, is it a sick thing or is your cat gagging like you have an irritant in your throat.
> 
> I'm wondering if a supplement to reduce the hair could also help with the vomiting..just a thought


In Rosie's case, I know she is feeling nauseous before vomiting as she licks her lips. She only very occasionally has hair in the vomit - it is mostly food, sometimes some grass. The only time she has had major hairballs in the vomited food is on the dry z/d.

Having said that, it is quite possible that a build up of hair in the stomach might feel extra uncomfortable when food piles in on top maybe?

Interestingly, Rosie loves hairball paste (which I give very sparingly) and often pesters me to give her some by sitting and looking up at the spot on the table where she knows I keep it! Maybe she's trying to tell me something?


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK. The trial of the ranitidine was at my request. My vet initially refused to prescribe it. She said that if too much acid was present it was important to establish the cause of the excess acid. *She said that using an antacid would be treating the symptom not the cause*.


Yes, it's quite right to find the cause and not just treat the symptoms.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Just throwing this question out for those who have ones that vomit. I know there has been discussion about hairballs and I am one that does not believe they are normal.
> 
> Now thinking about it, if I had a lot of fur lining my throat and moving down to my stomach if I ate I'm pretty sure I would throw up straight away. Bit like this morning I was brushing my teeth and some how I managed to get a hair in. Y mouth that was near the back of my throat and made me gag.
> 
> When your cat is sick, is it a sick thing or is your cat gagging like you have an irritant in your throat.
> 
> I'm wondering if a supplement to reduce the hair could also help with the vomiting..just a thought


In Dylan's case I don't think its like a throat irritation. Its quite violent, his whole body heaves as if from deep within. It looks quite distressing but the moment it is over he will just carry on with whatever he was doing as if nothing has happened.

We only seem to get an incident with hair in every 3 or 4 months so its only a small proportion of the vomiting seems to have any hair connection.


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Just throwing this question out for those who have ones that vomit. I know there has been discussion about hairballs and I am one that does not believe they are normal.
> 
> *Now thinking about it, if I had a lot of fur lining my throat and moving down to my stomach if I ate I'm pretty sure I would throw up straight away*. Bit like this morning I was brushing my teeth and some how I managed to get a hair in. Y mouth that was near the back of my throat and made me gag.
> 
> When your cat is sick, is it a sick thing or is your cat gagging like you have an irritant in your throat.
> 
> I'm wondering if a supplement to reduce the hair could also help with the vomiting..just a thought


and along comes Meeko the master of "spanners into works" 

When Meeko throws up it is rarely,if ever ,after he has eaten and more often than not if there is hair it is in a hair ball sausage shape.
Like Dylan when Meeko is sick it looks like it is coming up from his boots ,(excellent description from Forester)


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> In Dylan's case I don't think its like a throat irritation. Its quite violent, his whole body heaves as if from deep within. It looks quite distressing but the moment it is over he will just carry on with whatever he was doing as if nothing has happened.
> 
> We only seem to get an incident with hair in every 3 or 4 months so its only a small proportion of the vomiting seems to have any hair connection.


Same with Rosie - and like I said before, I will feed her again within a few minutes and she won't be sick the second time. Is that the same with Dylan?

It does appear that there are some big differences between what is going on with say, the magnificant Meeko, and what is happening with Rosie and perhaps Dylan.

I really don't understand why the vomiting doesn't happen at the 10pm and 3.00am feeds though - there must be a clue in there somewhere...


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Same with Rosie - and like I said before, I will feed her again within a few minutes and she won't be sick the second time. Is that the same with Dylan?
> 
> It does appear that there are some big differences between what is going on with say, the magnificant Meeko, and what is happening with Rosie and perhaps Dylan.
> 
> I really don't understand why the vomiting doesn't happen at the 10pm and 3.00am feeds though - there must be a clue in there somewhere...


Dylan is the same. I can feed him again 15 minutes after he's been sick and the food can be guaranteed to stay down.

What really mystifies me is this:- The 11.30 pm and 3.30 am feeds have stopped the vomiting which almost always occurred at breakfast time so why now has he started to vomit at other times in the day which almost never happened before I started the night time feeds.?


----------



## buffie

Usually if Meeko has been sick ,if there is food down he will go and have some right after being sick.
The first 18 months there was no real pattern to his vomiting ,in as much as it would happen at different times of the day or night,now it seems to be confined to between 10pm and 2 am and not during the day at all 
The only possible connection might be that he has his famotidine tablet before breakfast and I wonder if the effect has worn off by evening.
Surely though if that was the case he would be sick more often than he is ?


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Usually if Meeko has been sick ,if there is food down he will go and have some right after being sick.
> The first 18 months there was no real pattern to his vomiting ,in as much as it would happen at different times of the day or night,now it seems to be confined to between 10pm and 2 am and not during the day at all
> The only possible connection might be that he has his famotidine tablet before breakfast and I wonder if the effect has worn off by evening.
> Surely though if that was the case he would be sick more often than he is ?


References to dosage of famotidine which I've seen have stated that the dosage is given every 12 to 24 hours. To me that implies that it probably doesn't last a full 24 hours (but there again it may be my strange logic running riot again ) I wonder whether the pattern of Meeko's vomiting would change if you gave his famotidine before a different meal ?


----------



## sarahecp

I'm finding this really interesting about the vomiting and fur balls. Roman has never been a sicky cat and he's not suffered with fur balls, being semi long haired I thought we'd have loads of them. It's just the rear end we have problems with. 

Been thinking about this and Seb, he vomits a couple of times a month and when he does it's in the mornings, breakfast time, I've always put it down to him eating too quickly, what he's eaten comes up whole, then he carries on eating. I've always free fed up until recently, food was always available, so he's not being greedy because he hasn't been fed. I've noticed since he's been eating the RC SC dry he hasn't vomited or it could just be down to him getting used to the set meal times 

Roman had a poo this morning, was firm with a tiny runny bit. I had to pretend i was squeezing the skippy out of a pouch for him to eat it  he did  he ate it at lunch time  he's eating less dry too, not sure I'm ready to increase the skippy.


----------



## LDK1

What's this 'skippy' everyone is refering too?! I did a search on this thread a while back to see which brand this is, but I can't find anything!


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> References to dosage of famotidine which I've seen have stated that the dosage is given every 12 to 24 hours. To me that implies that it probably doesn't last a full 24 hours (but there again it may be my strange logic running riot again ) I wonder whether the pattern of Meeko's vomiting would change if you gave his famotidine before a different meal ?


The problem with changing the timing is that it is supposed to be given on a fairly empty stomach and at least 20 minutes before a meal.
There is also the difficulty in splitting the tablets.
Up until recently he was on a 1/4 of a 20mg tablet once a day.
They have now sourced 5mg tablets so no need to split but the 5mg is the dose he is meant to have in a 24 hour period and that tablet is way too small to split so don't see how it could be given every 12 hours


----------



## buffie

LDK1 said:


> What's this 'skippy' everyone is refering too?! I did a search on this thread a while back to see which brand this is, but I can't find anything!


I think this is "skippy" Nicola sent me a tin to try with Meeko and it went down like a lead balloon.
Dont know why it smelled lovely and actually looked edible.

Katzenmenü - KÄNGURU - Adult Katze Nassnahrung - Vet-Concept GmbH & Co KG


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> The problem with changing the timing is that it is supposed to be given on a fairly empty stomach and at least 20 minutes before a meal.
> There is also the difficulty in splitting the tablets.
> Up until recently he was on a 1/4 of a 20mg tablet once a day.
> They have now sourced 5mg tablets so no need to split but the 5mg is the dose he is meant to have in a 24 hour period and that tablet is way too small to split so don't see how it could be given every 12 hours


Oh I'm so sorry, buffie. I *wasn't *meaning to imply that you should change the timing of Meeko's tablet *or *suggesting that you should give his medication twice daily. I was speaking hypothetically.:blush2: I'd seen this information with respect to dosing dogs for whom its obviously easier to split dosage due to larger bodyweight. I was also pondering whether the dosage given at a different time, not for Meeko but for any cat, would produce a different pattern.

I'm really really sorry!. I'm also not very good at saying exactly what I mean. It always seems to come out wrong.


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> What's this 'skippy' everyone is refering too?! I did a search on this thread a while back to see which brand this is, but I can't find anything!


Kangaroo 



buffie said:


> I think this is "skippy" Nicola sent me a tin to try with Meeko and it went down like a lead balloon.
> Dont know why it smelled lovely and actually looked edible.
> 
> Katzenmenü - KÄNGURU - Adult Katze Nassnahrung - Vet-Concept GmbH & Co KG


I think it looks and smells rather tasty


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Oh I'm so sorry, buffie.* I wasn't meaning to imply that you should change the timing of Meeko's tablet or suggesting that you should give his medication twice daily*. I was speaking hypothetically.:blush2: I'd seen this information with respect to dosing dogs for whom its obviously easier to split dosage due to larger bodyweight. I was also pondering whether the dosage given at a different time, not for Meeko but for any cat, would produce a different pattern.
> 
> I'm really really sorry!. I'm also not very good at saying exactly what I mean. It always seems to come out wrong.


Oh Sylv I didn't think for one minute you did  I was just trying to explain (badly) why it might be difficult.
I did ask my vet before whether it would be worth splitting the daily dose into twice a day but he didn't think it was a good idea,something to do with the make up of the tablets.Splitting them too many times could mean that the correct dose wouldn't be given as each part of a tablet could contain different amounts of the medication and as I said the 5mg tablets are tiny .


----------



## nicolaa123

So basically whether it the front or the back end, there is no real patern to be determined.. &#128569;


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> So basically whether it the front or the back end, there is no real patern to be determined.. &#55357;&#56889;


Looks like it


----------



## LDK1

Hello all,

I remember a link to this article being posted a couple of years back, but didn't take a lot of notice at the time.

I have found it again whilst googling something else, and thought it might be an interesting read for anyone who hasn't come across it before:

403: Access Forbidden

.


----------



## LDK1

LDK1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I remember a link to this article being posted a couple of years back, but didn't take a lot of notice at the time.
> 
> I have found it again whilst googling something else, and thought it might be an interesting read for anyone who hasn't come across it before:
> 
> 403: Access Forbidden
> 
> .


Don't know why it says acces forbidden.


----------



## LDK1

Try again:

403: Access Forbidden

ETA: don't know what's going on with the link, but it's the website feline-nutrition.org and it's about feline IBD


----------



## Forester

Don't panic LDK !

The link works 
Many thanks for posting it

I have seen it before and at the time was greatly inspired by what was being suggested about the role of diet in IBD.

I had hoped, and still do, to one day be able to get Dylan onto an all raw diet. At the moment whilst he's under the vet his diet is being dictated by her . Sadly she is one of the vets who would probably have heart failure at the suggestion of feeding raw . I have tried , at the times when given a little leeway regarding his diet, to get him taking broths in the hope that it might help to heal his gut. Sadly , he wasn't interested.

Personaly, I wouldn't want to introduce a raw diet to a cat unless the cat was stable, and had not shown symptoms for a while. I feel that it is too risky when there is either a compromised gut or a compromised immune system following steroids.

For me, a raw diet is a dream for sometime in the future.

Dylan still has DR so I'm hoping that my vet will authorise a tapering of the pred. dose. I haven't managed to get hold of her yet today.

How are Blue, Meeko, Riley, Rosie and Roman today?
Sadly we seem to be gathering quite a collection of IBD kitties.


----------



## sarahecp

Sorry to hear Dylan still has dire rear  fingers crossed you get to speak to your vet today. 

Roman had a softish poo overnight and I've come home to a runny one at lunchtime, what I've noticed though is they're a lot darker, could be the skippy. 

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Sorry to hear Dylan still has dire rear  fingers crossed you get to speak to your vet today.
> 
> Roman had a softish poo overnight and I've come home to a runny one at lunchtime, what I've noticed though is they're a lot darker, could be the skippy.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


Dylan's poo was definitely darker when on the skippy ( or perhaps I should say kangaroo for anyone unfamiliar with this thread  ). Have you noticed any change in Roman since reducing the pred. dose ?

I've spoken with my vet . She gave me the option to either leave the pred. dose alone or to reduce it back to 2.5mg daily. I've opted to reduce. I'm to report back in 2 weeks ( or following any change which might happen in the meantime ).

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Dylan's poo was definitely darker when on the skippy ( or perhaps I should say kangaroo for anyone unfamiliar with this thread  ). Have you noticed any change in Roman since reducing the pred. dose ?
> 
> I've spoken with my vet . She gave me the option to either leave the pred. dose alone or to reduce it back to 2.5mg daily. I've opted to reduce. I'm to report back in 2 weeks ( or following any change which might happen in the meantime ).
> 
> love to all


Good idea to reduce it, I wasn't happy when my own vet said to just stop.

Not noticed any change, he's still a bit sleepy and still drinking quite a bit, but that I would say is a mixture of the Pred and dry food. He's never really been a big drinker but always eaten wet. Xx


----------



## nicolaa123

For reference, Riley's output is the same colour it goes in as!!

Sarah has Roman been going out un supervised at all?


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> For reference, Riley's output is the same colour it goes in as!!
> 
> Sarah has Roman been going out un supervised at all?


Only supervised garden visits, I take him out when I get in from work and play with the flying frenzy to keep him occupied so he doesn't sneak off, been doing this a while now and he seems quite happy and not done a runner.

He had another runny poo about 5 ish that 3 already today, that was lighter in colour. Because he hasn't been too keen on eating the skippy, I've started giving that separately then giving him the RC SC dry once he's eaten it.

Rang the vets today as not heard from them, results are not back yet.


----------



## sarahecp

Hello all, hope everyone has been doing ok. 

Roman has taken a backward step, got up to dire rear in the tray this morning, some at lunchtime and just now. He's been a good boy and eaten his skippy at breakfast and lunch. The only changes have been the reduced Pred and he's been on that a week now. 

I'm not stressing and know it's to be expected. 


Here's to good poo and no vomiting vibes to all xx


----------



## LDK1

Sorry to read about these worsening symptoms - I hope things stabilise soon. 

Rosie is still being sick at least once a day, but on the positive side she has produced a couple of really good poos since giving her the Ropocat Rabbit. It's way too early to count my 'chickens' regarding that side of things though as I've got a feeling she's going to get bored of eating this stuff very soon! 

Best wishes to all.


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Sorry to read about these worsening symptoms - I hope things stabilise soon.
> 
> Rosie is still being sick at least once a day, but on the positive side she has produced a couple of really good poos since giving her the Ropocat Rabbit. It's way too early to count my 'chickens' regarding that side of things though as I've got a feeling she's going to get bored of eating this stuff very soon!
> 
> Best wishes to all.


Thank you  xx

Sorry to hear Rosie is still being sick  good news on the poo  and that she's eating the Ropocat  fingers crossed she doesn't get bored of it.


----------



## nicolaa123

Runny bum here too, last couple nights, I will see how he is over next few days, I may give him a course of ab's just to help things settle down a bit, he has also shown some signs of his tummy hurting namely the haunch and also aggression..hopefully it will pass..

Hope others are fairing better..


Raised £1400 today


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Runny bum here too, last couple nights, I will see how he is over next few days, I may give him a course of ab's just to help things settle down a bit, he has also shown some signs of his tummy hurting namely the haunch and also aggression..hopefully it will pass..
> 
> Hope others are fairing better..
> 
> Raised £1400 today


Poor Riley  makes me so sad to think and know they have pain 

That's a fantastic amount   well done to all that donated :thumbup:


----------



## bluecordelia

Come on Dylan Rosie and roman

We seem to be getting a naughty's en masse.

Blue has vomited once more but not so much volume this week. What i have noticed is a change in her and Ivans sleeping and eating coupled with a definite cooling and autumnal feel. I use Ivan as a yardstick for normal. Water consumption is down, food intake down and lots more daytime sleeping. Ivan even wanted in overnight on Wednesday. Blue always sleeps in overnight. 

I am off later to cook up a batch of thigh meat. I am careful with the raw. There are so e recipes which suggest putting the mear in the oven for ten prior to mincing freezing etc. I wash mine and buy it every couple of days. I am sure there are articles saying raw hasn't seemed to cause food poisoning in cats as they don't have an issue with those mice n birdies. As with all food hygeine rotation and human grade protein is a great start. For ease though we do boil up a pack and refrigerate.

Hope everyone is coping. On touch blue seems a bit scrawny at the moment but well in herself. X


----------



## sarahecp

Another runny poo overnight and another this morning  he's seems fine in himself, running around this morning like a loony and chasing Seb up and down the stairs 


I hope Blue has no more vomiting. 


Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

We can't seem to win. Come on Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie. Good days are due from all of you. Sending wishes to all for firm poo and no " returns"

I know that each week seems to cause me to come up with a new theory but I'm starting to wonder whether offal content, as well as fat content might be significant in whether a particular food suits our " ultra sensitive " cats..

Dylan hasn't fared well with any of the high offal Ropocat varieties but seems to be doing quite well with the 2/3 boiled rabbit, 1/3 sensitivity control pouch ( temporary )diet authorised by my vet. . Since reducing the pred we haven't had any more dire rear and no vomiting either.I perhaps ought to qualify that by saying that we haven't actually had a tray deposit at all since reducing the pred. I'm not too worried about that ( yet ), hoping for output today. 

Come on the rest of you, I feel that we need some good news.

love and healing vibes to all.


----------



## sarahecp

Pleased to hear Dylan is doing ok  

I wish I could come up with a theory, I think I'm becoming more and more confused (don't take much ) been thinking so hard to why we've had this backward step with Roman and my brain hurts (again ). It's either too much dry intake, not enough skippy or the reduced Pred    or just none of those. I think I better stop thinking


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> I know that each week seems to cause me to come up with a new theory but I'm starting to wonder whether offal content, as well as fat content might be significant in whether a particular food suits our " ultra sensitive " cats..


You're not alone with the theories - I'm constantly looking for a connection/pattern.

In our case, the biggest thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if food is the issue, whether it be the protein source, offal content, fat content or anything else, why is Rosie not sick in the evening/night feeds?

I'm even wondering if this is the direction the vets should be looking towards in Rosie's situation:

Acid Reflux in Cats | petMD


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> You're not alone with the theories - I'm constantly looking for a connection/pattern.
> 
> In our case, the biggest thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if food is the issue, whether it be the protein source, offal content, fat content or anything else, why is Rosie not sick in the evening/night feeds?
> 
> *I'm even wondering if this is the direction the vets should be looking towards in Rosie's situation:
> *Acid Reflux in Cats | petMD


LDK, That's exactly how I was thinking with Dylan before I tried the ranitidine and started the 4 hourly feeding. What has totally confused me now is that the ranitidine/ 4 hourly feeding changed the pattern with Dylan. He now vomits lunchtime, afternoon or evening but not at breakfast time or overnight. Before making these changes vomiting was almost always at breakfast time.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK, That's exactly how I was thinking with Dylan before I tried the ranitidine and started the 4 hourly feeding. What has totally confused me now is that the ranitidine/ 4 hourly feeding changed the pattern with Dylan. He now vomits lunchtime, afternoon or evening but not at breakfast time or overnight. Before making these changes vomiting was almost always at breakfast time.


Hmmm...strange isn't it?


----------



## bluecordelia

I think sometimes the really good protein wet is too much on a sensitive tummy. Blue wouldn't touch ropocat etc until after the total raw period. I even tried macs as blue's half brother could tolerate it.

Come on everyone...x


----------



## nicolaa123

Staceyforeverliving said:


> Aloe Vera would be a great help . Do you know the worlds oldest cat lived the last 10 years of it's life having aloe Vera once a day. The qualities are amazing please let me know if you would like more information .Stacey


Yes please! What would aloe help with specifically to the symptoms of ibd What qualities are amazing? Are there any specific studies with regards to ibd in cats and aloe?

I use aloe myself on cuts, scratches, basically skin. I did hear once it can be digested also, but I never really fully looked into it for my cat so I am very interested in what you have to say


----------



## RappScallion

Staceyforeverliving said:


> Aloe Vera would be a great help . Do you know the worlds oldest cat lived the last 10 years of it's life having aloe Vera once a day. The qualities are amazing please let me know if you would like more information .Stacey


Cat kaolin would be far better to try than Aloe Vera (can be toxic for cats, very dangerous advice given by Stacey), just my professional opinion.

Plants Toxic to Cats - CATS PROTECTION

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-suppleme...l-vp-veterinary-kaolin-suspension-480ml-p-906

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-suppleme...vetuk-probiotic-anti-diarrhoeal-paste-p-20356


----------



## Sacrechat

Is this what you are looking for RappScallion?


----------



## RappScallion

Sacremist said:


> Is this what you are looking for RappScallion?


Yes, thank you 

It wasn't showing up on my new posts page, it has now.

I can now make contact with the cat owner, relief.


----------



## MCWillow

RappScallion said:


> Cat kaolin would be far better to try than Aloe Vera (can be toxic for cats, *very dangerous advice given by Stacey*), just my professional opinion.
> 
> Plants Toxic to Cats - CATS PROTECTION
> 
> http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-suppleme...l-vp-veterinary-kaolin-suspension-480ml-p-906
> 
> http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-suppleme...vetuk-probiotic-anti-diarrhoeal-paste-p-20356


Interesting to note her full username is staceyforeverliving....

Forever Living is a name of a company that sell loads of products, all containing aloe vera - I have used them myself, and they are great products for humans - but _VERY_ bad form to be advising cat owners to use them on their cats


----------



## RappScallion

MCWillow said:


> Interesting to note her full username is staceyforeverliving....
> 
> Forever Living is a name of a company that sell loads of products, all containing aloe vera - I have used them myself, and they are great products for humans - but _VERY_ bad form to be advising cat owners to use them on their cats


I could not agree with you more, I would not have in good conscious gone to bed tonight knowing such bad advise and life threatening, was given.

I have messaged Nicola, hopefully she will see my message before giving her cat Aloe vera.


----------



## MCWillow

RappScallion said:


> I could not agree with you more, I would not have in good conscious gone to bed tonight knowing such bad advise and life threatening, was given.
> 
> *I have messaged Nicola, hopefully she will see my message before giving her cat Aloe vera*.


Luckily, knowing Nicola, she won't be giving Ripley anything she hasn't fully researched herself 

You can sleep peacefully - but not everyone researches thoroughly, so excellent advice anyway x


----------



## RappScallion

MCWillow said:


> Luckily, knowing Nicola, she won't be giving Ripley anything she hasn't fully researched herself
> 
> You can sleep peacefully - but not everyone researches thoroughly, so excellent advice anyway x


Ah good to know that Nicola is a smart cookie, thank you. Good night, and sleep well yourself.


----------



## nicolaa123

Guess my note of sarcasm wasn't clear enough..

Although if the member does have any case studies I would be interested In reading them, plus I would still like them to explain how it would help a cat with ibd..


----------



## RappScallion

nicolaa123 said:


> Guess my note of sarcasm wasn't clear enough..
> 
> Although if the member does have any case studies I would be interested In reading them, plus I would still like them to explain how it would help a cat with ibd..


Sorry, I guess my radar wasn't on full last night (my excuse-it was late). I let panic take hold of me, and missed your sarcasm. The shame!

I hope young Riley's condition is being managed okay? ICD is such a hard thing to treat successfully.


----------



## nicolaa123

RappScallion said:


> Sorry, I guess my radar wasn't on full last night (my excuse-it was late). I let panic take hold of me, and missed your sarcasm. The shame!
> 
> I hope young Riley's condition is being managed okay? ICD is such a hard thing to treat successfully.


"Ok" is what I aim for with him, he has bad days but a song as there are more ok days I'm happy!!

Guess who is coming home with me as she is on one feed per day and later I have something very very special to share with you all


----------



## RappScallion

nicolaa123 said:


> "Ok" is what I aim for with him, he has bad days but a song as there are more ok days I'm happy!!
> 
> Guess who is coming home with me as she is on one feed per day and later I have something very very special to share with you all


Okay is good with this condition, as you correctly point out 

Like others here, waiting with baited breath to hear your news.


----------



## Forester

Here's wishing Riley a lifetime of OK days.

Nicola, you are being a tease. I have to go out for half an hour and you've got me resenting it because I want to see Foxy as soon as possible. It is Foxy, isn't it ?

Hoping that everyone else is o k. 

Dylan blotted his copy book last night. He was very sick  I had given him one single piece of Thrive dry to entice him off the top of the kitchen cupboards on Friday. Would that be enough to trigger a vomit ? I really do hope that it was a one off as I truly don't want the vet to advise increasing his pred. again. Still nothing in the tray , poo wise, since the DR on Thursday. I'm starting to get a bit anxious about it though. He seems happy enough. He's cuddled up , next to me, now, purring as loud as he can.

love to all


----------



## nicolaa123

RappScallion said:


> Okay is good with this condition, as you correctly point out
> 
> Like others here, waiting with baited breath to hear your news.


It's and awful condition and I have been through the phase of wanting the "cure" as everyone does, Riley has reactions to pretty much everything, his condition is being controlled with chlorambucil and certainly been a life saving drug for Riley!

Currently he is doing ok on kangaroo, we are in a little wobble at the moment, I'm hopefull that we are back to ok otherwise I will give him a course of ab's to help with the inflammation..



Forester said:


> Here's wishing Riley a lifetime of OK days.
> 
> Nicola, you are being a tease. I have to go out for half an hour and you've got me resenting it because I want to see Foxy as soon as possible. It is Foxy, isn't it ?
> 
> Hoping that everyone else is o k.
> 
> Dylan blotted his copy book last night. He was very sick  I had given him one single piece of Thrive dry to entice him off the top of the kitchen cupboards on Friday. Would that be enough to trigger a vomit ? I really do hope that it was a one off as I truly don't want the vet to advise increasing his pred. again. Still nothing in the tray , poo wise, since the DR on Thursday. I'm starting to get a bit anxious about it though. He seems happy enough. He's cuddled up , next to me, now, purring as loud as he can.
> 
> love to all


I'm not quite home as yet... But yes I have foxy with me and she is still as adorable as ever!!

However that's not my news


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Here's wishing Riley a lifetime of OK days.
> 
> Nicola, you are being a tease. I have to go out for half an hour and you've got me resenting it because I want to see Foxy as soon as possible. It is Foxy, isn't it ?
> 
> Hoping that everyone else is o k.
> 
> Dylan blotted his copy book last night. He was very sick  I had given him one single piece of Thrive dry to entice him off the top of the kitchen cupboards on Friday. Would that be enough to trigger a vomit ? I really do hope that it was a one off as I truly don't want the vet to advise increasing his pred. again. Still nothing in the tray , poo wise, since the DR on Thursday. I'm starting to get a bit anxious about it though. He seems happy enough. He's cuddled up , next to me, now, purring as loud as he can.
> 
> love to all


I would say yes it would be a reaction to the thrive. Was it chicken?

As for output, does his tummy feel bloated, can you feel a poo waiting? Oh and have you checked behind the sofa? Hopefully you will get a deposit soon x


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I would say yes it would be a reaction to the thrive. Was it chicken?
> 
> As for output, does his tummy feel bloated, can you feel a poo waiting? Oh and have you checked behind the sofa? Hopefully you will get a deposit soon x


Yes, it was chicken. I couldn't get Dylan down any other way. I almost put it back in the tube but felt that would be unfair to him so I let him eat it. I won't be doing that again.

I've tried to feel for waiting poo but I'm not really sure what to feel for. I've searched under and behind the furniture but haven't found anything. I would be shocked if I did find anything as he's never ever failed to go in the tray. He doesn't tend to produce much output at all with the rabbit, there's obviously not much waste. His system must have been pretty empty and he does seem his usual self but I will feel much happier when he poo's. I considered ringing the vets this morning when he hadn't pooed and initially turned his nose up at his breakfast . I felt better when he changed his mind and cleaned the dish.
He seems very content and relaxed so I don't think that he can be feeling uncomfortable. Last week I was keen for him not to go. Now I want him to go. This slave is never satisfied.


----------



## nicolaa123

Hopefully you will get a deposit, I'm sure they have less output on raw diets anyway, so that could also be a factor..



Foxy says hello..I'm just going to start a thread in general re the exciting news


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all 

Nicola, you're bringing Foxy home with you  I hope she's doing ok? And you have other news, mmmm I'm intrigued  

Sylv, sorry to hear Dylan has been sick  sound like it could have been the Thrive. I hope it was a one off. And I hope he has a poo soon. 

I have noticed that Roman's tummy looks and feels bloated before he goes. 

Roman still has watery dire rear  and we're back to shouting again before using the tray. My only conclusion is because we've reduced the Pred  I need to call Patricia on Thursday when he's been in the reduced dose for 2 weeks but I'm going to call her tomorrow and have a chat, will be taking the Poo & Food Diary to work with me. 

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Hopefully you will get a deposit, I'm sure they have less output on raw diets anyway, so that could also be a factor..
> 
> Foxy says hello..I'm just going to start a thread in general re the exciting news


Hello Foxy   xx

Off to general


----------



## sarahecp

Roman still have runny poo! Spoke to Patricia, she wants to increase the Pred back up to 10mg a day and also prescribing chlorambucil, she's going to call my vet in the morning to ask them for it and more Pred. We need to increase the Pred for 2 weeks and the chlorambucil is for 2 weeks also, then to call her to update. 

He's not been eating as much of the dry and he's still having the teaspoon of skippy. He seems a bit quiet in himself, Seb wanted to play earlier and he didn't  

I hope everyone is doing ok, including Foxy and Spikes  xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Roman still have runny poo! Spoke to Patricia, she wants to increase the Pred back up to 10mg a day and also prescribing chlorambucil, she's going to call my vet in the morning to ask them for it and more Pred. We need to increase the Pred for 2 weeks and the chlorambucil is for 2 weeks also, then to call her to update.
> 
> He's not been eating as much of the dry and he's still having the teaspoon of skippy. He seems a bit quiet in himself, Seb wanted to play earlier and he didn't
> 
> I hope everyone is doing ok, including Foxy and Spikes  xx


I'm sorry to hear that Roman still has runny poo.  Did Patricia offer any explanation for why it might have improved but then deteriorated again. ?
Poor lamb. His tummy must feel so sore with having had dire rear for so long. You can't blame him for nor wanting to play with Seb.

Sending " firming" vibes to Roman, as well as to Riley, and Blue.
Vomit free vibes to Meeko and Rosie.

Dylan still hasn't produced a poo in either tray. I have realised that his last " pancake" offering was on Friday morning and not on Thursday as I'd previously thought. He seems his normal self though, chasing sunbeams and practicing handbrake turns this morning. If he was at all off colour I would be on the phone to the vets but he seems completely normal in all other respects.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm sorry to hear that Roman still has runny poo.  Did Patricia offer any explanation for why it might have improved but then deteriorated again. ?
> Poor lamb. His tummy must feel so sore with having had dire rear for so long. You can't blame him for nor wanting to play with Seb.
> 
> Sending " firming" vibes to Roman, as well as to Riley, and Blue.
> Vomit free vibes to Meeko and Rosie.
> 
> Dylan still hasn't produced a poo in either tray. I have realised that his last " pancake" offering was on Friday morning and not on Thursday as I'd previously thought. He seems his normal self though, chasing sunbeams and practicing handbrake turns this morning. If he was at all off colour I would be on the phone to the vets but he seems completely normal in all other respects.
> 
> love to all


Patricia said as there has been no other change it would be because we've reduced the Pred. She doesn't think it's the skippy.

I've noticed him starting to sit hunched over, so may be in pain  he let me put some Vaseline on his bum earlier 

Pleased to hear Dylan thinks he's a racing driver  and hope he has a poo soon.

xx


----------



## sarahecp

Oh and the poo sample came back negative.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Oh and the poo sample came back negative.


What were they testing for?

re the Vaseline, poor love , is his bum sore ?

Sending hugs to you as well as the vibes for Roman.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> What were they testing for?
> 
> re the Vaseline, poor love , is his bum sore ?
> 
> Sending hugs to you as well as the vibes for Roman.


They were testing for Tritrichomonas foetus (had to go to google for spelling )

Not sure if it's sore, but I'd imagine it is so thought id put it on just incase 

Thanks  xxx


----------



## Forester

How's everyone today?

Sarah, I hope that Roman is looking more comfortable and isn't hunched up.

Nicola, sending wishes for Riley's wobble to be over, and him to be regaining his equilibrium. Is he enjoying Foxy's company. ? Its so sad that Spikes didn't make it. At least he will not have passed alone at the mercy of any predators.

Buffie, you've been missed during the last few days. I hope that you and Meeko are o k. This thread seems a bit " empty " without you.

LDK1 How's Rosie getting on?

bluecordelia, sending " relaxation" vibes for Blue. I hope that she has managed to keep her food to herself since you last " reported".

Dylan produced the long awaited poo this morning.  . From my point of view it was " perfect". OH thought that I was nuts as I was grinning from ear to ear after his " deposit". 

No more vomiting, I think that you were right Nicola that it was a result of the piece of chicken Thrive which I gave to him. I wonder whether the last cluster of vomits was down to the fish from the f and c shop which I gave him. I'm sticking much more closely to the boiled rabbit plus sensitivity control pouches now.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Woohoo! Well done Dylan for having a poo at last :thumbup: and pleased no more vomiting   let's hope it continues 

Roman seems a bit better in himself today and haven't noticed any hunching. He had a runny poo overnight, nothing this morning or lunchtime but I come home to a runny one this afternoon. 

Had a call from Patricia this morning, she'd spoken to my vet, they don't keep the chlorambucil there so will order it in, need to call my own vet in the morning about this.

I've taken him out in the garden for a flying frenzy session and now we're back in ready to have dinner. 

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx

Very sad news about Spikes


----------



## sarahecp

Quick question, the boys are due have their Advocate spot on this week, any reason why I shouldn't do Roman? And what about worming, is that ok? 

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Quick question, the boys are due have their Advocate spot on this week, any reason why I shouldn't do Roman? And what about worming, is that ok?
> 
> xx


Personally I'd ring my vet to ask. That way you will have peace of mind that you've done the right thing.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Personally I'd ring my vet to ask. That way you will have peace of mind that you've done the right thing.


Thanks Sylv I'll ask when I ring in the morning x


----------



## buffie

Evening everyone,thought I would drop by to see how you are all doing.
I needed a break away from vomit/poo/food and all things IBD so have had a quick read through the recent posts.
Good to read that Dylan has finally managed to present his slaves with a "perfect" poo  and is still managing to keep the other end under control.
Pity that Roman is still having problems in the poo department,paws crossed the new drugs help him.
Looks like Riley has settled down and all seems "okay" in his world and paws crossed Blue and the others are still doing okay.
Meeko is still "Meeko"  faffing around with his wet food but would if given the chance,clear a bowl of dry in seconds ,otherwise seems well.


Sarah,if I were you I wouldn't worm Roman just yet,not with his tummy problems.
Wormers can be quite harsh on a sensitive stomach,so unless you feel he has worms I would leave it just now,maybe ask your vets what they think.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1 How's Rosie getting on?
> 
> Dylan produced the long awaited poo this morning.  . From my point of view it was " perfect". OH thought that I was nuts as I was grinning from ear to ear after his " deposit".


Hi there,

Glad to read about Dylan's improvement.

I feel exactly the same about both my cats pooing habits - if the poos are good then at least some of their bodily functions are working properly and that makes me happy.

I've been following everyone's updates but didn't feel like posting as I'm not coping too well with Rosie's constant vomiting at the moment. TBH I was crying buckets on Sunday after Rosie threw up for the umpteenth day in a row despite everything I'm trying. :cryin:

I was hoping the Ropocat might ease things, but although she's been producing great poos, the vomiting situation is quite bad.

The thing that's really getting to me is that the vets aren't on the same page as me - they think throwing up huge hairballs and being on 100% dry Hill's food are all perfectly normal, and that the food trial is not going badly despite Rosie becoming very lethargic since going on it and not one iota of improvement to be seen anywhere.

I don't feel up to fighting against how they want things done, so I'm going to give the z/d dry one more go and try to stick it for the 6 weeks and see what happens. At least if there is no improvement I can say that I tried their way now I want to try my way.

Best wishes to all and sorry for the negativity!


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Evening everyone,thought I would drop by to see how you are all doing.
> I needed a break away from vomit/poo/food and all things IBD so have had a quick read through the recent posts.
> Good to read that Dylan has finally managed to present his slaves with a "perfect" poo  and is still managing to keep the other end under control.
> Pity that Roman is still having problems in the poo department,paws crossed the new drugs help him.
> Looks like Riley has settled down and all seems "okay" in his world and paws crossed Blue and the others are still doing okay.
> Meeko is still "Meeko"  faffing around with his wet food but would if given the chance,clear a bowl of dry in seconds ,otherwise seems well.
> 
> Sarah,if I were you I wouldn't worm Roman just yet,not with his tummy problems.
> Wormers can be quite harsh on a sensitive stomach,so unless you feel he has worms I would leave it just now,maybe ask your vets what they think.


Come on Meeko, stop faffing about and be a good boy and eat your wet food, it's good for you  x

Thanks Buffie, that's what I was thinking too, he doesn't have worms, only hunts the feather from the flying frenzy  and he's having supervised garden time. I will defiantly leave the worming. I will check with my vet tomorrow about the Advocate.


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Glad to read about Dylan's improvement.
> 
> I feel exactly the same about both my cats pooing habits - if the poos are good then at least some of their bodily functions are working properly and that makes me happy.
> 
> I've been following everyone's updates but didn't feel like posting as I'm not coping too well with Rosie's constant vomiting at the moment. TBH I was crying buckets on Sunday after Rosie threw up for the umpteenth day in a row despite everything I'm trying. :cryin:
> 
> I was hoping the Ropocat might ease things, but although she's been producing great poos, the vomiting situation is quite bad.
> 
> The thing that's really getting to me is that the vets aren't on the same page as me - they think throwing up huge hairballs and being on 100% dry Hill's food are all perfectly normal, and that the food trial is not going badly despite Rosie becoming very lethargic since going on it and not one iota of improvement to be seen anywhere.
> 
> I don't feel up to fighting against how they want things done, so I'm going to give the z/d dry one more go and try to stick it for the 6 weeks and see what happens. At least if there is no improvement I can say that I tried their way now I want to try my way.
> 
> Best wishes to all and sorry for the negativity!


I'm sorry to hear that Rosie has been vomiting  and the Ropocat isn't helping, I don't have any experience with the vomiting, sorry, but I'm sure Buffie and Forester will be able to help/advise.

I really do feel for you with not coping and being upset, I'm the same with Roman, it's really hard watching them and seeing them unwell  I've cried so much and it's horrible because we're doing our best.

I wasn't happy about giving Roman dry food, it took me a while to get Seb and Roman off of dry and on to a wet diet, out of the prescription Hills and RC foods he wouldn't eat any of the wet ones, so the RC Sensitivity Control duck and rice he would, so he's eating that at the moment and I've been slowly introducing the kangaroo from Vet Concept, he's enjoying it.

With Rosie being lethargic and producing hairballs isn't good and isn't right in my eyes. Is there another vet at your practice you can see?

I really hope things start to improve with Rosie really soon.

((((Hugs)))) to you x


----------



## buffie

LDK1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Glad to read about Dylan's improvement.
> 
> I feel exactly the same about both my cats pooing habits - if the poos are good then at least some of their bodily functions are working properly and that makes me happy.
> 
> I've been following everyone's updates but didn't feel like posting as I'm not coping too well with Rosie's constant vomiting at the moment. TBH I was crying buckets on Sunday after Rosie threw up for the umpteenth day in a row despite everything I'm trying. :cryin:
> 
> I was hoping the Ropocat might ease things, but although she's been producing great poos, the vomiting situation is quite bad.
> 
> The thing that's really getting to me is that the vets aren't on the same page as me - they think throwing up huge hairballs and being on 100% dry Hill's food are all perfectly normal, and that the food trial is not going badly despite Rosie becoming very lethargic since going on it and not one iota of improvement to be seen anywhere.
> 
> I don't feel up to fighting against how they want things done, so I'm going to give the z/d dry one more go and try to stick it for the 6 weeks and see what happens. At least if there is no improvement I can say that I tried their way now I want to try my way.
> 
> Best wishes to all and sorry for the negativity!


Sorry to read that Rosie is not doing so well,it is hard to watch them be sick day after day ,you feel so helpless.
I have had days like that where everything just gets you down and no matter what you try things just don't improve ,it is soul destroying.
Rosie isn't the only cat I have heard of that has appeared depressed and lethargic while on Z/D ,Meeko refused to eat it ,well the wet version anyway.He did try the dry but didn't eat enough to see whether he would be depressed or not on it.
There are other options of dry Hydrolyzed diets .
Meeko was given Purina H/A it looks a bit like rice crispies............Purina Veterinary Diet Feline HA for Hypoallergenic treatments (dry food) 3.5kg - VetMedsDirect.co.uk 
I am lucky that I have a vet who listens and asks me what I think,doesnt just talk at me and expect me to accept his ideas,mind you sometimes I think he probably wishes I didn't question things quite as much as I do

Don't worry about "being negative" we all have moments like this,thats the lovely thing about this thread ,when one of us is feeling low the rest of us are all here to listen,and help if we can.
Hope Rosie picks up soon x


----------



## LDK1

sarahecp said:


> Is there another vet at your practice you can see?


We tried to book an appointment this week to see the main partner at the practice but he is due to go on holiday for two weeks so that's out for the time being unfortunately. The other two vets seem to be in agreement about continuing with the dry z/d despite my concerns at the negative impact on Rosie.

Thanks for your support everyone - I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one to feel dispair about the situation every once in a while.

Thanks also for the suggestions for alternative foods to try. I'll bear them in mind if Rosie gets too bad on the z/d or starts to refuse it before the trial finishes.


----------



## nicolaa123

Every time I tried to reply yesterday the site crashed so will try again..

Sarah I think it's good Patricia is trying a new med, make sure you get some gloves as you can not touch with your skin and it needs to be kept in the fridge. They imagine will start with including the pred too, be interesting in the dose I think they will say to start one every three days. Let's hope it gives the poor Roman a break!

Slyv..no more treats for Dylan 

Ldk, if the z/d is causing this much of a reaction and you are not being listened too, if it was me I would be searching round for a new vet and or precise pronto!

I'm all for giving things time, but not to the point that my cat is getting worse. It is scarey thing to do, but I would be on the phone ringing round and asking the vets what experience they have on dealing with this issue, there is nothing wrong with questioning what the vet is saying to us!


----------



## LDK1

nicolaa123 said:


> Ldk, if the z/d is causing this much of a reaction and you are not being listened too, if it was me I would be searching round for a new vet and or precise pronto!


I'm running out of practices as this is the fourth one in four years for one reason or another! :scared: I was very happy with their setup until now.

I have not yet come across a vet who is more progressive in their thinking though - it's the usual dry food is good for the teeth and vaccinate for everything every year type approach - very disappointing.

I'll be asking to be refered to a specialist anyway if things don't improve as they admitted themselves that 'they were only GPs' so could only take things so far. We'll see how it goes...


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Every time I tried to reply yesterday the site crashed so will try again..
> 
> Sarah I think it's good Patricia is trying a new med, make sure you get some gloves as you can not touch with your skin and it needs to be kept in the fridge. They imagine will start with including the pred too, be interesting in the dose I think they will say to start one every three days. Let's hope it gives the poor Roman a break!
> 
> Slyv..no more treats for Dylan
> 
> Ldk, if the z/d is causing this much of a reaction and you are not being listened too, if it was me I would be searching round for a new vet and or precise pronto!
> 
> I'm all for giving things time, but not to the point that my cat is getting worse. It is scarey thing to do, but I would be on the phone ringing round and asking the vets what experience they have on dealing with this issue, there is nothing wrong with questioning what the vet is saying to us!


I'm happy that Patricia wants to try new/different meds.

Vets just called me to say the meds are ready to collect, receptionist said to tell whoever I see it's in the fridge  I have some gloves already  I'll let you know dosage etc later.

I hope it does the trick, poor boy does need a break!

Didn't ask about the Advocate, will do when I go there.



LDK1 said:


> I'm running out of practices as this is the fourth one in four years for one reason or another! :scared: I was very happy with their setup until now.
> 
> I have not yet come across a vet who is more progressive in their thinking though - it's the usual dry food is good for the teeth and vaccinate for everything every year type approach - very disappointing.
> 
> I'll be asking to be refered to a specialist anyway if things don't improve as they admitted themselves that 'they were only GPs' so could only take things so far. We'll see how it goes...


Depending on who I see at my vets, most bang on about dry  the vet Roman is under and try to book with all 3 boys if I can doesn't really comment on what I actually feed, just says if their happy with what they're eating and they're eating it's a good thing.

I think it's a good idea to ask for Rosie to be referred to a specialist. My vet admitted they did all they could with Roman (numerous poo samples, different antibiotics) it was time for him to be referred.

I really hope you get somewhere really soon.


----------



## sarahecp

Just picked up the meds, the Chlorambucil are 2mg tablets, one to be given every other day. 

30 x Pred and 25 x Chlorambucil - £105.61 Petplan are going to love me! 

Spoke to one of the vets while I was there, she said it was fine to use the Advocate, I'm in 2 minds though 


Nicola, how was Riley when he's been on the Chlorambucil? Any side affects or anything I should look out for? Maybe not look for, but you know what I mean  knowing me I'll start to imagine things


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone,
Lots of love to Rosie and mum xxxx. She will get there. When you are in it its awful and all consuming. I wasnt lucky enough to be on the thread when blue was so poorly. I looked at litter size and early weaning but bloop will always be sensitive. We had another random vomit yesterday when i got back from work.

Roman come on...meeko get it eaten. All the other tinkerbells keep it real. 

Love blue n Susan x


----------



## sarahecp

Sorry to hear Blue has vomited  hope it's another one off. Is she still ok in herself?

We've had 4 runny poos today. We've started the Chlorambucil tonight, I wore gloves and washed my hands after  


I feel a bit silly asking this but, since giving the chlorambucil to Roman my nose feels itchy and tingly, my ears are really hot too, do you think it's got anything to do with the meds? I'm NOT googling it  or am I being paranoid? 

xx


----------



## Forester

Evening all.

I apologise in advance if I miss anything of major significance. There is so much to keep up with.

Buffie.I *do *understand your need for a break from the thread. I was just concerned that something awful might have happened to you or Meeko. I missed your positivity and ability to put everything back into proportion.

LDK1. I've tried Dylan with all of the Ropocat varieties but each one has caused an increase in his vomiting. I think that it might be because of the high offal content or because none are particularly low fat. 
I gave up on the z/d( wet ) after 30 minutes. Dylan didn't like it and after tasting it decided that he was going on hunger strike no matter what he was given. 
I had exactly the same problems with my vet in that she wanted me to feed Royal Canin . She completely dismissed my suggestion of feeding a novel protein. I too felt mentally exhausted at the start of Dylan's investigation process. I felt that I was fighting not just Dylan's illness but the vet as well. The vet / client relationship was not good.
I *do *now wish that I'd done exactly as she asked ( apart from feeding dry ). I might then have reached my current position much quicker. The vet and I *do *now get on really well. Its so much easier when you're pulling in the same direction.
In your position I would be inclined to tell the vet that Rosie doesn't like the z/d. A lot of vets do seem to suggest Sensitivity Control before the z/d. The SC worked wonders for Dylan . He went from vomiting every 6 or 7 days to going almost 4 weeks . He's still better on the SC than anything else other than boiled rabbit which is obviously not complete.

Nicola. I *definitely *won't be allowing Dylan any more treats. The problem was I * had *to get him down before I could leave for a hospital appointment.

bluecordelia. I'm sorry to hear that Blue has vomited again . Tell her that *both *ends need to behave.

Sarah, Fingers crossed that the new meds will settle Roman's tummy and make him more comfortable again.

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Just picked up the meds, the Chlorambucil are 2mg tablets, one to be given every other day.
> 
> 30 x Pred and 25 x Chlorambucil - £105.61 Petplan are going to love me!
> 
> Spoke to one of the vets while I was there, she said it was fine to use the Advocate, I'm in 2 minds though
> 
> Nicola, how was Riley when he's been on the Chlorambucil? Any side affects or anything I should look out for? Maybe not look for, but you know what I mean  knowing me I'll start to imagine things


No side effects at all!! I did look into the drugs and took me a while to decide to go for it but was the best decision I made. One every other day is a good dose to start with especially coupled with the pred I would be hugely surprised if there isn't an improvement, I will have to look back to be sure but I'm sure with riley it was within a month if not sooner he was putting on weight but more importantly diarreah was much much less.

I think just keep a general eye on him as you are now, you will know I'm sure if there is something wrong, but try not to "look" for things :eek6:

As for you, if you used gloves you will be fine....i presume you didn't touch your skin after handling the tablet, if you didn't then I'm sure you will be ok..


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi Sarah and roman 

His meds i doubt will be getting to you esp as you are being careful. Please wear your gloves and wash your hands after. I am infection control lead so am meant to be good as stuff. I am not sure if you are splitting the tabs but the vet can do this for you. I have a splitter and if anyone needs they can be bought.

Hoping roman feels the benefit soon.

Blue is well in herself and sat here on the bed next to me wishing all kits and hoomans a poop n yak free nite x


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks Sylv 



nicolaa123 said:


> No side effects at all!! I did look into the drugs and took me a while to decide to go for it but was the best decision I made. One every other day is a good dose to start with especially coupled with the pred I would be hugely surprised if there isn't an improvement, I will have to look back to be sure but I'm sure with riley it was within a month if not sooner he was putting on weight but more importantly diarreah was much much less.
> 
> I think just keep a general eye on him as you are now, you will know I'm sure if there is something wrong, but try not to "look" for things :eek6:
> 
> As for you, if you used gloves you will be fine....i presume you didn't touch your skin after handling the tablet, if you didn't then I'm sure you will be ok..


Thanks Nicola  fingers crossed we see an improvement soon.

I wore gloves from opening the bottle until I'd given him the tablet and washed my hands straight away, didn't touch my face  probably my imagination


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv
> 
> Thanks Nicola  fingers crossed we see an improvement soon.
> 
> I wore gloves from opening the bottle until I'd given him the tablet and washed my hands straight away, didn't touch my face  probably my imagination


I have been giving for over a year and I'm ok (ish) ha ha :lol:


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Hi Sarah and roman
> 
> His meds i doubt will be getting to you esp as you are being careful. Please wear your gloves and wash your hands after. I am infection control lead so am meant to be good as stuff. I am not sure if you are splitting the tabs but the vet can do this for you. I have a splitter and if anyone needs they can be bought.
> 
> Hoping roman feels the benefit soon.
> 
> Blue is well in herself and sat here on the bed next to me wishing all kits and hoomans a poop n yak free nite x


Glad Blue is fine in herself 

The chlorambucil can't be split or crushed needs to be given whole. I split the Pred with a pill splitter, need to be extra careful with those, I found out how sharp the splitter was and cut my thumb  Roman went to push it off the worktop and I grabbed it!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I have been giving for over a year and I'm ok (ish) ha ha :lol:


:lol: :lol: I should be ok (ish) then :lol:

Just looked in the mirror, not a good sight  my cheeks and ears are bright red


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> :lol: :lol: I should be ok (ish) then :lol:
> 
> Just looked in the mirror, not a good sight  my cheeks and ears are bright red


Unless you are allergic to latex??


----------



## bluecordelia

Hadn't thought about latex allergy but if you feel its bothering let me know as i can send u some latex free gloves x


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Unless you are allergic to latex??





bluecordelia said:


> Hadn't thought about latex allergy but if you feel its bothering let me know as i can send u some latex free gloves x


Not that I know of, these ones are latex free.

Thanks BC 

The red face has gone  I'll see if it happens again when I give the tablets again on Friday.


----------



## catlover5

Hi I was wandering if any of you guys could shed some light on my boys health?? Around a month ago he developed a soft lump on the bottom of his tummy I took him to the vets who said as its soft, not red and not bothering him and its going down its best left and that they couldn't do a biopsy of it as he's a wriggler but to contact them if it hasn't gone down. I rung them up two weeks ago as I was concerned that it hadn't gone down and they dismissed my worries and said as it was soft then it was fine. Last week he started doing the odd "cow pat" pooh but not daily then Tuesday night he was frequently doing liquid poohs and I was up practically all night with him. I took him to the vets Wednesday and they prescribed him pro _ kol and told me to starve him for the rest of the day give him another 2ml dose of pro- kol in the evening then start feeding him royal cain gastro pouches today and give him one 2ml dose daily till next Thursday when we bring him in again. I gave them a sample and they said if the sample comes back inconclusive then they would do a scan of the lump they also weighed him and he was 4.2kg and the vet said he felt skinny I feed him 300g a day of wet food and there is no way his weight could have dropped to that overnight like the vet suggested might have happened:001_rolleyes: . I'm quite concerned as to what's happening to him and I wondered if you guys could give me any answers or advice? edit Thursday tomorrow not next Thursday


----------



## Forester

catlover5 said:


> Hi I was wandering if any of you guys could shed some light on my boys health?? Around a month ago he developed a soft lump on the bottom of his tummy I took him to the vets who said as its soft, not red and not bothering him and its going down its best left and that they couldn't do a biopsy of it as he's a wriggler but to contact them if it hasn't gone down. I rung them up two weeks ago as I was concerned that it hadn't gone down and they dismissed my worries and said as it was soft then it was fine. Last week he started doing the odd "cow pat" pooh but not daily then Tuesday night he was frequently doing liquid poohs and I was up practically all night with him. I took him to the vets Wednesday and they prescribed him pro _ kol and told me to starve him for the rest of the day give him another 2ml dose of pro- kol in the evening then start feeding him royal cain gastro pouches today and give him one 2ml dose daily till next Thursday when we bring him in again. I gave them a sample and they said if the sample comes back inconclusive then they would do a scan of the lump they also weighed him and he was 4.2kg and the vet said he felt skinny I feed him 300g a day of wet food and there is no way his weight could have dropped to that overnight like the vet suggested might have happened:001_rolleyes: . I'm quite concerned as to what's happening to him and I wondered if you guys could give me any answers or advice?


Hi catlover5. I'm sorry but I've never experienced anything along the lines that you are describing. Hopefully one of the others , who should be along later, may have experienced something like it.

You might like to start a new thread in the health and nutrition section to give your issue exposure to more members. This thread tends to be read by only a small section of the forum membership. Its possible that someone, not a reader of this thread, may be able to offer you some advice. Personally , I've never seen any references to swellings or lumps in connection with IBD.

Sending positive vibes for you and your boy.


----------



## sarahecp

catlover5 said:


> Hi I was wandering if any of you guys could shed some light on my boys health?? Around a month ago he developed a soft lump on the bottom of his tummy I took him to the vets who said as its soft, not red and not bothering him and its going down its best left and that they couldn't do a biopsy of it as he's a wriggler but to contact them if it hasn't gone down. I rung them up two weeks ago as I was concerned that it hadn't gone down and they dismissed my worries and said as it was soft then it was fine. Last week he started doing the odd "cow pat" pooh but not daily then Tuesday night he was frequently doing liquid poohs and I was up practically all night with him. I took him to the vets Wednesday and they prescribed him pro _ kol and told me to starve him for the rest of the day give him another 2ml dose of pro- kol in the evening then start feeding him royal cain gastro pouches today and give him one 2ml dose daily till next Thursday when we bring him in again. I gave them a sample and they said if the sample comes back inconclusive then they would do a scan of the lump they also weighed him and he was 4.2kg and the vet said he felt skinny I feed him 300g a day of wet food and there is no way his weight could have dropped to that overnight like the vet suggested might have happened:001_rolleyes: . I'm quite concerned as to what's happening to him and I wondered if you guys could give me any answers or advice?


I'm sorry to hear about your boy  like Forester I don't have any experience with this, sorry. I would agree with her about posting in the health section or maybe ask one of the mods to move the thread there for you. I hope someone can help/advise.

I hope your little man is better soon and the lump is nothing to worry about x


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all  

I was off work today, Roman has been quite sleepy and wanted loads of cuddles. We had no poo overnight and the first was around 8 ish and it wasn't so watery  and the same around lunchtime  He's not eaten very much today but drinking plenty of water. 

Hope all are having good poos and no vomiting and slaves are doing ok too  xx

Nicola, how's Foxy doing?


I think I know what has caused my itchy tingly nose and red face, the Yeowww catnip banana  I picked it up from the bedroom floor earlier and put on to the cat tree, went downstairs and the itchy nose came back, I did the same yesterday. It's got a small hole in it and the cat nip is coming out. It's got to be that.


----------



## catlover5

sarahecp said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your boy  like Forester I don't have any experience with this, sorry. I would agree with her about posting in the health section or maybe ask one of the mods to move the thread there for you. I hope someone can help/advise.
> 
> I hope your little man is better soon and the lump is nothing to worry about x


 Thanks I have copied and pasted it


----------



## bluecordelia

catlover5 said:


> Thanks I have copied and pasted it


Hi catlover

Our ib cats tend to have inflammed bowels but no palpable lumps. One of the most common reasons cats go to vets is upset tummies ie unusual poo. Hope you get more exposure on a wider forum as there are some great cat people on the forum. Us ib kits is an unfortunately pretty exclusive club.

Best wishes


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> I was off work today, Roman has been quite sleepy and wanted loads of cuddles. We had no poo overnight and the first was around 8 ish and it wasn't so watery  and the same around lunchtime  He's not eaten very much today but drinking plenty of water.
> 
> Hope all are having good poos and no vomiting and slaves are doing ok too  xx
> 
> Nicola, how's Foxy doing?
> 
> I think I know what has caused my itchy tingly nose and red face, the Yeowww catnip banana  I picked it up from the bedroom floor earlier and put on to the cat tree, went downstairs and the itchy nose came back, I did the same yesterday. It's got a small hole in it and the cat nip is coming out. It's got to be that.


Hopefully the meds are kicking in for him, no two ways about it the chlorambucil is a big med so being sleepy I would expect to be fair. The pred could be a cause for the thirst..I'm really looking forward to the time you can post Roman is "ok" a break from runny bums is a blessing!

Talking of runny bums, riley is still on a course of ab's to try and get him back on track, was doing ok but tonight another runny one..but he was sat next to foxes carrier this morning and as I was cleaning out foxy I dropped a biscuit and Hoover pants he is pounced on it :001_rolleyes:

Foxy is doing very well, she is putting on ave 13g per day, she loves loves loves food! She is eating pets at home kitten biscuits, spikes and Lilly's kitchen, she is now 189g which is fantastic.

I took a video of her earlier I will send it tomorrow..my internet playing up so will use works Internet


----------



## nicolaa123

LDK1 said:


> I'm running out of practices as this is the fourth one in four years for one reason or another! :scared: I was very happy with their setup until now.
> 
> I have not yet come across a vet who is more progressive in their thinking though - it's the usual dry food is good for the teeth and vaccinate for everything every year type approach - very disappointing.
> 
> I'll be asking to be refered to a specialist anyway if things don't improve as they admitted themselves that 'they were only GPs' so could only take things so far. We'll see how it goes...


Sorry I thought I had replied to this 

It's so hard when you don't have a vet that works with you and is open to all your ideas and will research your ideas..I'm very lucky with my vet and it took a few frogs!

I think you are right to ask for a referral..


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Hopefully the meds are kicking in for him, no two ways about it the chlorambucil is a big med so being sleepy I would expect to be fair. The pred could be a cause for the thirst..I'm really looking forward to the time you can post Roman is "ok" a break from runny bums is a blessing!
> 
> Talking of runny bums, riley is still on a course of ab's to try and get him back on track, was doing ok but tonight another runny one..but he was sat next to foxes carrier this morning and as I was cleaning out foxy I dropped a biscuit and Hoover pants he is pounced on it :001_rolleyes:
> 
> Foxy is doing very well, she is putting on ave 13g per day, she loves loves loves food! She is eating pets at home kitten biscuits, spikes and Lilly's kitchen, she is now 189g which is fantastic.
> 
> I took a video of her earlier I will send it tomorrow..my internet playing up so will use works Internet


I'm really looking forward to it to   I really hope it's soon.

Fingers crossed the ab's help get Riley back on track.

Pleased Foxy is doing well  glad she loves her food 

Look forward to seeing the video


----------



## Forester

Afternoon all

Fingers crossed that Riley's a/bs are doing their job, Roman is feeling brighter, and that Blue, Rosie and Meeko have kept their food to themselves. Hoping also that all slaves are staying chilled and feeling positive.

I should probably take my own advice above. Dylan has been sick once yesterday and again today. I expect that my vet's going to want to put the pred. dose back to 5mg which I would like to avoid. I blame the 5mg dose for Dylan's two episodes of dire rear. I'm going to try chopping the rabbit into very small pieces before I serve it. I've been giving quite large pieces , thinking that chewing the food might be good for him but he doesn't seem to be doing much chewing. Perhaps it will take longer to eat if chopped very small.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Afternoon all
> 
> Fingers crossed that Riley's a/bs are doing their job, Roman is feeling brighter, and that Blue, Rosie and Meeko have kept their food to themselves. Hoping also that all slaves are staying chilled and feeling positive.
> 
> I should probably take my own advice above. Dylan has been sick once yesterday and again today. I expect that my vet's going to want to put the pred. dose back to 5mg which I would like to avoid. I blame the 5mg dose for Dylan's two episodes of dire rear. I'm going to try chopping the rabbit into very small pieces before I serve it. I've been giving quite large pieces , thinking that chewing the food might be good for him but he doesn't seem to be doing much chewing. Perhaps it will take longer to eat if chopped very small.
> 
> love to all


Hi Sylv, sorry to hear Dylan has been sick  I really hope it doesn't continue. How is he in himself? Hope the smaller pieces of rabbit helps.

Know what you mean about taking your own advice, I think I'm the worlds worst  

Roman still has runny poo, 3 times today. He had his 2nd Chlorambucil this evening. When I got home at lunchtime he didn't greet me at the door which isn't like him, was sleeping in the base of the scratch post. He are a little bit of lunch, been a lot better since I've been home and we had a game of flying frenzy in the garden 

Hope everyone else is doing ok 
xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Hi Sylv, sorry to hear Dylan has been sick  I really hope it doesn't continue. How is he in himself? Hope the smaller pieces of rabbit helps.
> 
> Know what you mean about taking your own advice, I think I'm the worlds worst
> 
> Roman still has runny poo, 3 times today. He had his 2nd Chlorambucil this evening. When I got home at lunchtime he didn't greet me at the door which isn't like him, was sleeping in the base of the scratch post. He are a little bit of lunch, been a lot better since I've been home and we had a game of flying frenzy in the garden
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok
> xx


Thanks Sarah 
Dylan is his usual happy, cuddly little self. I replenished his dish about half an hour after he was sick and the food was consumed about half an hour later.

He is now stood by his dish shouting for more. No chance Boyo . I'm mean and make him wait till its at least 3 hours since he was last fed. I am worried that he will be sick again if he eats too much in a short time.

I am, once again, considering whether an interactive feeder which would slow his eating down would help. I find it so strange that for months Dylan would only be sick at breakfast time . Since buying the automatic feeder and giving him 2 meals at night he is never sick at breakfast time. I am assuming that the overnight feeds have made him not so hungry when he has his breakfast.

I understand that Chlorambucil is a pretty powerful medication so I think that its understandable that Roman feels a little " jaded" , for want of a better word. I would imagine that his body will need to take time to adjust to this med. Constant dire rear must also be rather draining. Hopefully his symptoms will soon start to resolve and he will feel better.

How is he doing with the skippy?

Sending love and positive vibes to all.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks Sarah
> Dylan is his usual happy, cuddly little self. I replenished his dish about half an hour after he was sick and the food was consumed about half an hour later.
> 
> He is now stood by his dish shouting for more. No chance Boyo . I'm mean and make him wait till its at least 3 hours since he was last fed. I am worried that he will be sick again if he eats too much in a short time.
> 
> I am, once again, considering whether an interactive feeder which would slow his eating down would help. I find it so strange that for months Dylan would only be sick at breakfast time . Since buying the automatic feeder and giving him 2 meals at night he is never sick at breakfast time. I am assuming that the overnight feeds have made him not so hungry when he has his breakfast.
> 
> I understand that Chlorambucil is a pretty powerful medication so I think that its understandable that Roman feels a little " jaded" , for want of a better word. I would imagine that his body will need to take time to adjust to this med. Constant dire rear must also be rather draining. Hopefully his symptoms will soon start to resolve and he will feel better.
> 
> How is he doing with the skippy?
> 
> Sending love and positive vibes to all.


Pleased to hear Dylan is his happy cuddly self  

Maybe an interactive feeder would help, could be worth a try. SureFlap who make the microchip cat flaps have brought out a microchip pet feeder, they are quite expensive around £99 someone on here has brought 2 I think, was thinking of getting one for Roman but at £99 it's quite expensive if he won't use it. Maybe if I ask nicely Santa might bring me one 

I've read that Chlorambucil is powerful, it's used mainly on humans, the leaflet in the box is for us not pets. My understanding would be why he's being like he is. I'm trying not to worry but it's so hard. I'm keeping everything crossed his poo starts to improve soon. Looking back through the diary (thanks again Nicola for suggesting it :thumbup if the higher dose helped him before it took about 5 days to when he had a firm poo.

He's still eating the skippy  I'm still giving it to him first before the dry, he eats better in the mornings and evenings, not so much at lunchtimes. But he's defiantly not eating as much of the dry as he was.

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Maybe an interactive feeder would help, could be worth a try. SureFlap who make the microchip cat flaps have brought out a microchip pet feeder, they are quite expensive around £99 someone on here has brought 2 I think, was thinking of getting one for Roman but at £99 it's quite expensive if he won't use it. Maybe if I ask nicely Santa might bring me one
> 
> xx


Yikes . I wasn't thinking of that sort of feeder. I am pretty sure that the idea of the Sureflap is that it only allows a specific cat to open it in order to feed. It might help you to prevent Frank or Seb from eating Roman's food.
I was thinking of something more like CATCH Interactive Cat Feeder | Company of Animals for Dylan. I tried a slow feed bowl months ago but it only slowed him down by milliseconds.

I'm glad that the skippy is still in favour.


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi

Glad Dylan is still eating...greedy boy. Blue is eating a lot the last few days as is Ivan. Good as we have had no sickyness. 

Hope our ib baby roman feels better soon. Its a heavy med.

Take care all x


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Yikes . I wasn't thinking of that sort of feeder. I am pretty sure that the idea of the Sureflap is that it only allows a specific cat to open it in order to feed. It might help you to prevent Frank or Seb from eating Roman's food.
> I was thinking of something more like CATCH Interactive Cat Feeder | Company of Animals for Dylan. I tried a slow feed bowl months ago but it only slowed him down by milliseconds.
> 
> I'm glad that the skippy is still in favour.


I know yikes!  

Frank is the one that I don't trust, he will eat anything and everything and not stop   I'm glad that I work so close to home and that I can do the 4 feeds without Frank eating Roman's food, I don't think Frank has got used to the habit yet of no food being left down, I'm sure he will eventually. I don't like being out all day for this reason, when I went to the cat show a couple of weeks ago I left food in the auto feeder and I would say Roman ate it because it wasn't all eaten.

I've just looked at your link  they do look a good idea and can see how it would work, would slow down eating, may have to invest in one for Seb for breakfast time feeding.

I did think he was going off the skippy but giving it first before the dry he does eat it 

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Sarah I so do feel for you, I know what it's like having to clean a bum every day and the surounding areas of the home  Its draining and depressing and heartbreaking, but you will get there and I can't wait for that day! 

how much skippy are you feeding now?

Slyv, makes sense to increase number of feeds but smaller..you could end up feeding 10 times per day but if it works......

Blue, pleased to hear things are improving!

Riley is still in poo hell! Thing is I know he will get back to ok and I'm loathe to take him to the vets just yet as well to be honest there is nothing more she can do right now..we are not in a major flare up so I do not need to think about adding another drug (I'm saving that one) he is fine in himself, I might try some pumpkin next but first I will do some house arrest &#128557; 

We will get there, we all will!!



Foxy is in love with Riley..this morning they was both on the bed whilst I was cleaning her carrier out and she was chasing him trying to nest into his fur..he looked at me as if to say.. help!!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Sarah I so do feel for you, I know what it's like having to clean a bum every day and the surounding areas of the home  Its draining and depressing and heartbreaking, but you will get there and I can't wait for that day!
> 
> how much skippy are you feeding now?
> 
> Slyv, makes sense to increase number of feeds but smaller..you could end up feeding 10 times per day but if it works......
> 
> Blue, pleased to hear things are improving!
> 
> Riley is still in poo hell! Thing is I know he will get back to ok and I'm loathe to take him to the vets just yet as well to be honest there is nothing more she can do right now..we are not in a major flare up so I do not need to think about adding another drug (I'm saving that one) he is fine in himself, I might try some pumpkin next but first I will do some house arrest 😭
> 
> We will get there, we all will!!
> 
> Foxy is in love with Riley..this morning they was both on the bed whilst I was cleaning her carrier out and she was chasing him trying to nest into his fur..he looked at me as if to say.. help!!


Thanks Nicola  I can't wait for that day. When we had those days of firm normal poo I was so excited and then so disheartened when we went backwards. I know I shouldn't have been and knew and know they'll be good and bad days but, well you know what I mean.

I've increased the skippy to 2 teaspoons.

Poor Riley  I hope his poo firms up soon, glad he's fine in himself 

We WILL all get there!  

I would have loved to have seen Foxy with Riley, you need to have your phone to hand next time to video it, I bet they were sooo adorable to watch :001_wub: :001_wub:


----------



## sarahecp

This will be Riley and Foxy soon :001_wub: :001_wub:



Sorry, off topic but I had to share  xx


----------



## LDK1

Hi all,

Sorry to read about continuing problems for your kitties.

Has anyone been given probiotics like Protexin Enterogenic or Fortiflora to administer at the same time as all the other treatments? If not, if might be worth a go to try to build back up the good bacteria in the gut. I think it was very beneficial when my Watson was being treated for Giardia a couple of years back, and I continued giving it to him for about three months after. Unfortuanately the slightest pinch on Rosie's food and she throws up - but maybe that's just a coincidence.

It does say it's for dogs, but I know it's also sold for use on cats and was recommended by the venerable hobbs2004:

Pro-Kolin Enterogenic - Protexin Veterinary - Protexin

Regarding trying to feed a poorly kitty seperately when you are not around to stop others muscling in on the food, I found a solution:

I fitted a microchip catflap (£59.00) in an internal door of a spare room and scanned Rosie only. So overnight (when I'm not able to control things) she can go to her feeder when it opens at 3:00am, but Watson can't get in! Works brilliantly - much to Watson's annoyance.


----------



## sarahecp

Hi LDK1, how's Rosie been? Hope things are improving. 

I've not been recommended it but have tried in the past both mixed/sprinkled with Roman's food but he would touch the food  fussy so and so, I checked the dates on both boxes the other day and they're now out of date. 

I got some of both after seeing it on one of Hobbs's posts  

We have a microchip cat flap in the back door but a great idea to put one an internal door, may have to think about doing that, thanks for the tip  I'd imagine Frank would feel the same as Watson


----------



## LDK1

sarahecp said:


> Hi LDK1, how's Rosie been? Hope things are improving.


Well, I'm a bit nervous of saying this incase I jinx things, but Rosie hasn't thrown up since Sunday - when I got very upset about it all. :001_huh:

I put her back on the dry z/d halfway through Monday, but I am giving her less (10g) in the mornings and lunchtimes to start with, then give her 5g more only if and when she comes to me asking for more - but allowing a gap of at least half an hour inbetween. She then gets about 12-15g early evening, 15g late evening and 10g overnight.

On top of that, I am giving her hairball paste late morning whilst I groom her and a couple of blobs of enzyme toothpaste to lick last thing at night.

I kept her indoors for the first food trial, but am letting her out for a few hours a day this time as I feel the extra stress of not being allowed out couldn't be helping matters.

So, this is not a perfect food trial as I'm giving her hairball paste, toothpaste and letting her out - but at the moment she has not thrown up for five days, which is the longest period for ages, so something has improved. :biggrin: I'm keeping everything crossed...


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Well, I'm a bit nervous of saying this incase I jinx things, but Rosie hasn't thrown up since Sunday - when I got very upset about it all. :001_huh:
> 
> I put her back on the dry z/d halfway through Monday, but I am giving her less (10g) in the mornings and lunchtimes to start with, then give her 5g more only if and when she comes to me asking for more - but allowing a gap of at least half an hour inbetween. She then gets about 12-15g early evening, 15g late evening and 10g overnight.
> 
> On top of that, I am giving her hairball paste late morning whilst I groom her and a couple of blobs of enzyme toothpaste to lick last thing at night.
> 
> I kept her indoors for the first food trial, but am letting her out for a few hours a day this time as I feel the extra stress of not being allowed out couldn't be helping matters.
> 
> So, this is not a perfect food trial as I'm giving her hairball paste, toothpaste and letting her out - but at the moment she has not thrown up for five days, which is the longest period for ages, so something has improved. :biggrin: I'm keeping everything crossed...


That's really good news, I'm so pleased   I really hope it continues  Keeping everything crossed for you and Rosie 

I was so scared to be excited when Romans poo firmed up, but I couldn't help it, the first normal poo this year, I had tears of joy

It sounds that what you're doing is helping, I've been giving Roman supervised garden time for a while now, I play with the flying frenzy to keep him occupied otherwise he'd do a runner. There have been a few days where he's not gone out and he is unhappy, makes it worse because Frank and Seb are out. That does make me wonder if he gets depressed and then stressed because of this.


----------



## bluecordelia

I think they get terribly upset if they aren't getting out. The constant cleaning blue did must have made her feel worse as she was trying to stay clean with me lurking with a flannel. 

Blue is now pooping outside ...it took months to get here..although todays rain means they are both in the greenhouse. 
Take care all x


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> This will be Riley and Foxy soon :001_wub: :001_wub:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, off topic but I had to share  xx


That's one of the most adorable piccies I've ever seen.

I confess that I grinned at the thought of Foxy trying to snuggle against Riley. I hope that Riley reciprocates Foxy's feelings. They would make such a gorgeous couple.:001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## nicolaa123

Whilst we are off topic....

Ark Hedgehog Heroes BIG Giveaway


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry to read about continuing problems for your kitties.
> 
> Has anyone been given probiotics like Protexin Enterogenic or Fortiflora to administer at the same time as all the other treatments? If not, if might be worth a go to try to build back up the good bacteria in the gut. I think it was very beneficial when my Watson was being treated for Giardia a couple of years back, and I continued giving it to him for about three months after. Unfortuanately the slightest pinch on Rosie's food and she throws up - but maybe that's just a coincidence.
> 
> It does say it's for dogs, but I know it's also sold for use on cats and was recommended by the venerable hobbs2004:
> 
> Pro-Kolin Enterogenic - Protexin Veterinary - Protexin
> 
> Regarding trying to feed a poorly kitty seperately when you are not around to stop others muscling in on the food, I found a solution:
> 
> I fitted a microchip catflap (£59.00) in an internal door of a spare room and scanned Rosie only. So overnight (when I'm not able to control things) she can go to her feeder when it opens at 3:00am, but Watson can't get in! Works brilliantly - much to Watson's annoyance.


I have seen references to using probiotics but I think that they were only considered suitable for use when dire rear without vomiting is a problem . I can't remember where I read it but I know that I have read it.

The internal cat flap idea sounds a brilliant solution to feeding Rosie without Watson. Poor Watson, I wonder whether he is aware what is going on behind closed ( to him ) doors.



LDK1 said:


> Well, I'm a bit nervous of saying this incase I jinx things, but Rosie hasn't thrown up since Sunday - when I got very upset about it all. :001_huh:
> 
> I put her back on the dry z/d halfway through Monday, but I am giving her less (10g) in the mornings and lunchtimes to start with, then give her 5g more only if and when she comes to me asking for more - but allowing a gap of at least half an hour inbetween. She then gets about 12-15g early evening, 15g late evening and 10g overnight.
> 
> On top of that, I am giving her hairball paste late morning whilst I groom her and a couple of blobs of enzyme toothpaste to lick last thing at night.
> 
> I kept her indoors for the first food trial, but am letting her out for a few hours a day this time as I feel the extra stress of not being allowed out couldn't be helping matters.
> 
> So, this is not a perfect food trial as I'm giving her hairball paste, toothpaste and letting her out - but at the moment she has not thrown up for five days, which is the longest period for ages, so something has improved. :biggrin: I'm keeping everything crossed...


That's absolutely fantastic news about Rosie.  It sounds a massive improvement.

I understand how distressed you must feel when she is vomiting daily. I was permanently on the edge of tears when Dylan was vomiting that often. I became almost frightened to feed him for fear that the food would be returned. I was frantic on the phone to the vet's receptionist and was shaking when I spoke to my vet.

Fingers crossed that Rosie continues to improve.



sarahecp said:


> I was so scared to be excited when Romans poo firmed up, but I couldn't help it, the first normal poo this year, I had tears of joy


Nicola and buffie are sooo right. It really is a rollercoaster. I grinned from ear to ear when Dyl did his first good poo after the DR last week.



bluecordelia said:


> I think they get terribly upset if they aren't getting out. The constant cleaning blue did must have made her feel worse as she was trying to stay clean with me lurking with a flannel.
> 
> Blue is now pooping outside ...it took months to get here..although todays rain means they are both in the greenhouse.
> Take care all x


Great news about Blue. :thumbup1:

I am so lucky that Dylan has never shown even the slightest inclination to want to go out. Perhaps he remembers being frightened when he was a stray. He was rescued from the middle of a busy road.

Sending positive vibes to all IBD kitties and slaves


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Whilst we are off topic....
> 
> Ark Hedgehog Heroes BIG Giveaway


I've voted from the link on FB and it just let me vote again


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I've voted from the link on FB and it just let me vote again


I'm glad that you posted with that. I missed it before ( can't think how  ). Its just let me vote too, I think., though its meant to be past the deadline.??


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm glad that you posted with that. I missed it before ( can't think how  ). Its just let me vote too, I think., though its meant to be past the deadline.??


I only just spotted it   I didn't notice the deadline.


----------



## nicolaa123

Deadline not until 31 October so share share share pls..

Riley when he has had pro Kolin or pro or pre biotics he has had a reaction! As he did to toothpaste too!


----------



## catlover5

Forester said:


> I have seen references to using probiotics but I think that they were only considered suitable for use when dire rear without vomiting is a problem . I can't remember where I read it but I know that I have read it.


 My cat had dhioreah sorry for the typo and was sick Monday evening and Tuesday morning and my vet prescribed 2mls of pro kolin a day for him along with royal canin gastro intenstinal pouches so it may be worth asking your vet about it and seeing what they think?


----------



## bluecordelia

catlover5 said:


> My cat had dhioreah sorry for the typo and was sick Monday evening and Tuesday morning and my vet prescribed 2mls of pro kolin a day for him along with royal canin gastro intenstinal pouches so it may be worth asking your vet about it and seeing what they think?


Blue had the paste when first bad. Rather than try to get it in her i smeared it on food. We then got the powders. I have a stock in. They are cheaper online and my village pet shop stocks it cheaper than the vet too. The syringe was too bulky stiff for a cat and is for dogs.

X


----------



## catlover5

bluecordelia said:


> Blue had the paste when first bad. Rather than try to get it in her i smeared it on food. We then got the powders. I have a stock in. They are cheaper online and my village pet shop stocks it cheaper than the vet too. The syringe was too bulky stiff for a cat and is for dogs.
> 
> X


 The syringe is blooming blo..y terrible :cursing::cursing::cursing: its so stiff by the time id got the stuff out my cat was tired of it being in her mouth and it went around her face instead! I now squirt it out then put it in his mouth and he licks it of as he likes the taste of it. The people who manufactor it really should do something about it and I plan to have words about it, as a weightlifting champ would have trouble getting that stuff out! Whereabouts online can you buy it without a prescription and how long does it take for it to be delivered?


----------



## sarahecp

catlover5 said:


> The syringe is blooming blo..y terrible :cursing::cursing::cursing: its so stiff by the time id got the stuff out my cat was tired of it being in her mouth and it went around her face instead! I now squirt it out then put it in his mouth and he licks it of as he likes the taste of it. The people who manufactor it really should do something about it and I plan to have words about it, as a weightlifting champ would have trouble getting that stuff out! Whereabouts online can you buy it without a prescription and how long does it take for it to be delivered?


I agree it's awful stuff to administer, when I've used it in the past I've had more over me and the kitchen cupboards than in the cat. Try to put it on his paw, smear it on rather than leaving a blob as it tends to get flicked everywhere. Nasty smelling stuff too.

Have a look on animed or medicanimal websites, should only take a couple of days to arrive.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Deadline not until 31 October so share share share pls..
> 
> Riley when he has had pro Kolin or pro or pre biotics he has had a reaction! As he did to toothpaste too!


Sorry, brain not in gear.

Poor Riley. It goes to show that we have to be careful of absolutely anything which goes in through their mouths not just the cat food ingredients.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> It goes to show that we have to be careful of absolutely anything which goes in through their mouths not just the cat food ingredients.


Absolutely! I even wondered whether giving Rosie catnip to munch might be causing or exacerbating her problems, so I've knocked that on the head for the time being.

Hope everyone's okay today.

ETA: Rosie still hasn't been sick (nearly 7 days) - I may have to eat my words about the z/d dry, though she is still not very active on it.


----------



## Forester

Dylan's O K today.

How about the rest of " the gang".


----------



## sarahecp

Pleased to hear Dylan is o k today   

Roman has had 2 runny poo's today, only small amounts, I'm taking this as a good thing  he's still a bit sleepy and quiet, but then perks up for a little while and goes back to being quiet and sleepy again.

When Roman was on Pred for the first time back in June for his asthma I noticed he was weeing quite a lot, he was on 5mg a day, but since he's been prescribed it by Patricia he just goes the normal about, a couple of times a day. 

Hope every is ok  xx


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> ETA: Rosie still hasn't been sick (nearly 7 days) - I may have to eat my words about the z/d dry, though she is still not very active on it.


Way hey! That's excellent news LDK1.

Please keep it up, Rosie.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Way hey! That's excellent news LDK1.
> 
> Please keep it up, Rosie.


Guess what? She threw up this morning! There was a huge hairball in the food, the same as when I first tried the z/d a few weeks back.

I'm not at all stressed about it though at the moment (I've learn't to keep my cool a little better after reading how everyone else is trying to handle their own situations) - so long as it's just a 'blip' that is.

How's Dylan?


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Guess what? She threw up this morning! There was a huge hairball in the food, the same as when I first tried the z/d a few weeks back.
> 
> I'm not at all stressed about it though at the moment (I've learn't to keep my cool a little better after reading how everyone else is trying to handle their own situations) - so long as it's just a 'blip' that is.
> 
> How's Dylan?


So sorry to hear about this morning's " returns " LDK. . I think that you are right. Its best to look at the general picture rather than the " performance" on a particular day or few days. I'm trying to look at Dylan's symptoms over a fortnight , or possibly a month to get a better idea of how he is doing. Everything which might be relevant is recorded in my diary but I'm trying not to look at it until I have to report back to my vet.

Dylan's fine. , although rather impatient at meal times. I have started to chop his food very finely as I'd noticed that he hasn't been bothering to chew it. Dylan's idea of eating is to fill his mouth, and then swallow. This can't be helping his situation.

Rosie does definitely sound to be improving with the z/d. I know that you've tried her with ranitidine. Have you tried any other medications or dietary modifications?

Hoping that everyone else is doing well. Sending love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie, as well as their slaves and anyone else who reads this thread.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> When Roman was on Pred for the first time back in June for his asthma I noticed he was weeing quite a lot, he was on 5mg a day, but since he's been prescribed it by Patricia he just goes the normal about, a couple of times a day.
> 
> Hope every is ok  xx


Sarah, I wonder whether their systems get used to the medications. I have a feeling that I read somewhere that side effects of pred include increased thirst and urination _especially at first _. Dylan hasn't been weeing a lot but those he does are huge.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Have you tried any other medications or dietary modifications?


She's not on any medication at the moment, just very small quantities of z/d (5-10g) at a time - except for her 10pm feed when I give her 15g in one go.

Other than that, just hairball paste and a little enzyme toothpaste to lick before bedtime. Impossible to brush her teeth but the idea about the toothpaste is me wondering whether a bacterial overload from the mouth might be contributing to any sickness in the morning - this is the total clutching-at-straws type theorising you'll probably understand!


----------



## sarahecp

Sorry to hear Rosie has been sick  fingers crossed it's a one off and she'll start to be o k  

It's a week today Roman's been on the increased dose (10mg) of Pred and yesterday was the 3rd chlorambucil. We still have runny poos  one over night and 2 lots when I got home at lunchtime, he didn't eat any lunch, was still there when I get in from work. 

I'm starting to feel very down about it all again, I feel so much for him and feel really helpless  

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Sarah, I wonder whether their systems get used to the medications. I have a feeling that I read somewhere that side effects of pred include increased thirst and urination _especially at first _. Dylan hasn't been weeing a lot but those he does are huge.


It wouldn't let me quote just now  you could be right, it's like their systems get immune to it. Been reading up on the chlorambucil, one of the side affects can be dire rear  just our luck it could be making Roman worse. But not sure after 3 tablets we'll notice any change yet.


----------



## LDK1

sarahecp said:


> It's a week today Roman's been on the increased dose (10mg) of Pred and yesterday was the 3rd chlorambucil. We still have runny poos  one over night and 2 lots when I got home at lunchtime, he didn't eat any lunch, was still there when I get in from work.
> 
> I'm starting to feel very down about it all again, I feel so much for him and feel really helpless


Very sorry to read this. It really is a rollercoaster of ups and downs isn't it?

I don't know the full history with Roman, but does the vet have a clear treatment strategy on what to try next if one avenue is not working? Or are these symptoms to be expected, regardless of the medication?

I wish I had some knowledge of the subject so I could make a few suggestions...

All I can say is that I really understand how you are feeling right now and just want to send you and Roman my very best wishes for a speedy improvement and lots and lots of positive healing vibes.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along later with some suggestions.

Take care. <<<Hug>>>


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Very sorry to read this. It really is a rollercoaster of ups and downs isn't it?
> 
> I don't know the full history with Roman, but does the vet have a clear treatment strategy on what to try next if one avenue is not working? Or are these symptoms to be expected, regardless of the medication?
> 
> I wish I had some knowledge of the subject so I could make a few suggestions...
> 
> All I can say is that I really understand how you are feeling right now and just want to send you and Roman my very best wishes for a speedy improvement and lots and lots of positive healing vibes.
> 
> Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along later with some suggestions.
> 
> Take care. <<<Hug>>>


Thank you  xx it is a roller coaster  I keep telling myself that we will get there.

After Roman had an endoscopy, he was given a 2 week course of Prednesoline steroids, his poo started to firm up after about a week of being on a 10mg dose, the referral vet said we needed to reduced them to em wean him off, so they were reduced to 5mg a day, his poo started to get softer then very runny again, spoke to referral vet last Monday who advised an increase in the Pred to 10mg a day for 2 weeks and also prescribed the chlorambucil that he has to take 1 every other day. I need to call her on Friday to update on his progress, so we'll take it from there.


----------



## Forester

Come on girls, We WILL get this awful disease under control for our masters and mistresses. Its only a matter of time .

There will be a time when we can look back at today and realise how much progress we have made. It may be a long, journey but *we will get there *. If it can be done we will do it.

I've just given myself a pep talk and am now trying on the rest of you.

Dylan has been sick again. I have checked my diary and its 4 times since the pred went back to 2.5 mg. I'm considering putting him back on 5mg as I know that the vet will want to. I'm due to report back later this week .What worries me is that I'm sure that it was the 5mg dose which caused the dire rear. My vet didn't seem particularly concerned about the DR but I was.

LDK, something which might help with Rosie's breakfast vomiting. I have managed to completely stop Dylan's breakfast vomiting by feeding at 11.30 pm and 3.30am. Its really strange that he's now vomiting at other times , which he didn't do before I started the night feeds, but the breakfast vomiting has stopped completely.

I've just ordered a slow feeder from Amazon. It can't do any harm.

positive vibes coming everyone's way


----------



## sarahecp

Can't quote again 

Thanks Sylv  xx I will try my very best to be positive. 

Sorry to hear Dylan has been sick  hopefully it's a one off. If you do increase the Pred fingers crossed for no dire rear. 

Let us know how you find the feeder and how Dylan gets on with it.


----------



## bluecordelia

Roman come on little fella and Rosie lets get on.

Sorry to hear we have some poorly cats. I can report appetite is back to full speed. We are having breakfast and tea only with bedtime snack. Blue brought me a present this am..a bird which i am none too happy with and a mouse. We are sleeping in most of the day and going out after tea for a terrorisation of the local wildlife. All field hedges have been cut so cover is scarce. 

Forrester big hug too plus all the other reprobates xxxx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> It wouldn't let me quote just now  you could be right, it's like their systems get immune to it. Been reading up on the chlorambucil, one of the side affects can be dire rear  just our luck it could be making Roman worse. But not sure after 3 tablets we'll notice any change yet.


It will take some time to really see a difference, it may be an idea when you speak with Patricia about trying different doseage. I'm sure with riley he was on pred and chlorambucil which didn't really make a difference only when I stopped the pred and the metrondazole and gave the chlorambucil once a week did it really kick in, but with riley it was more of a case of stopping his body rejecting food and getting some weight back on him, he still has a runny bum even tho on the chlorambucil but he is better in the fact he has put on weight and has a better condition.

I'm just wondering if you should just try the kangaroo exclusively and stop the dry, adding some pumpkin to the kanagroo to add some fibre, it's a risk as you don't know how is tummy will react, but if it was me, I would try it and just see what the reaction is. Poor boy if only he can get solid for a few days ..


----------



## nicolaa123

Sylv, whenever riley has come off meds his symptoms worsen for a short period, I think as the body adjusts again, some times it's worth waiting it out for a few days to see why happens...

Oh how I hate ibd and what it does to our cats 

Riley is now couple of good days then not so good, so he is improving slowly..but we are getting there..


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Roman come on little fella and Rosie lets get on.
> 
> Sorry to hear we have some poorly cats. I can report appetite is back to full speed. We are having breakfast and tea only with bedtime snack. Blue brought me a present this am..a bird which i am none too happy with and a mouse. We are sleeping in most of the day and going out after tea for a terrorisation of the local wildlife. All field hedges have been cut so cover is scarce.
> 
> Forrester big hug too plus all the other reprobates xxxx


Thanks BC  xx naughty Blue 



nicolaa123 said:


> It will take some time to really see a difference, it may be an idea when you speak with Patricia about trying different doseage. I'm sure with riley he was on pred and chlorambucil which didn't really make a difference only when I stopped the pred and the metrondazole and gave the chlorambucil once a week did it really kick in, but with riley it was more of a case of stopping his body rejecting food and getting some weight back on him, he still has a runny bum even tho on the chlorambucil but he is better in the fact he has put on weight and has a better condition.
> 
> I'm just wondering if you should just try the kangaroo exclusively and stop the dry, adding some pumpkin to the kanagroo to add some fibre, it's a risk as you don't know how is tummy will react, but if it was me, I would try it and just see what the reaction is. Poor boy if only he can get solid for a few days ..


Thanks Nicola  xx

I'll mention the dosage when I speak to Patricia on Friday. I know I need to be patient too and can't except things to work and happen overnight.

I think it's a good idea  I've thought about doing it a couple of times before but I've been scared, I won't know until I try. I honestly don't think the dry is doing him any good, I know we had a few firm days but I don't know what caused that, (whatever it was please let it happen again) something is telling me that the rice is not good.

I'm going to go for it  shall I still stick to the 4 meals a day? And what about amounts? The recommended amount on the can says for a 6kg cat 200-300 kg per day. How much pumpkin mixed in?


----------



## nicolaa123

I would stick to 4 meals, I would do 50g per meal with a teaspoon of pumpkin mixed in each meal to start off with and see how it goes, you can adjust as you go along,.

Just thinking about your poo/food diary is there any patterns you can see with food and poo? Riley does better smaller breakfast and dinner with a large supper..anything like that coming to light?


----------



## buffie

Evening folks, sorry to have been AWOL for so long but I have been trying not to think IBD thoughts .
Sorry to read that we all seem to be having a rough time of it at the moment ,it really is a bl**dy nightmare trying to find a way through this IBD.
Meeko is still not eating wet food , he is lucky if he eats 100gs a day, he seems okay in as much as he will eat dry if I offer it to him but that isn't really an option as he still wont drink water 

There is little point in taking him to the vets as he isn't ill at least nothing obvious ,just don't know what to try next.
I've crushed stuff on top,sprinkled with Forti Flora you name it I've tried it but he has a few mouthfuls and then walks off.
Came across this link to a good site on a thread posted by Moggybaby ,not sure if it has been posted before as there have been so many but thought it was worth posting in case it hasn't been............403: Access Forbidden


----------



## buffie

buffie said:


> Evening folks, sorry to have been AWOL for so long but I have been trying not to think IBD thoughts .
> Sorry to read that we all seem to be having a rough time of it at the moment ,it really is a bl**dy nightmare trying to find a way through this IBD.
> Meeko is still not eating wet food , he is lucky if he eats 100gs a day, he seems okay in as much as he will eat dry if I offer it to him but that isn't really an option as he still wont drink water
> 
> There is little point in taking him to the vets as he isn't ill at least nothing obvious ,just don't know what to try next.
> I've crushed stuff on top,sprinkled with Forti Flora you name it I've tried it but he has a few mouthfuls and then walks off.
> Came across this link to a good site on a thread posted by Moggybaby ,not sure if it has been posted before as there have been so many but thought it was worth posting in case it hasn't been............403: Access Forbidden


ETA don't know why it has come up with access forbidden,it did that to MB too when she posted it


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I would stick to 4 meals, I would do 50g per meal with a teaspoon of pumpkin mixed in each meal to start off with and see how it goes, you can adjust as you go along,.
> 
> Just thinking about your poo/food diary is there any patterns you can see with food and poo? Riley does better smaller breakfast and dinner with a large supper..anything like that coming to light?


Ok thanks, I'll stick to the 4 meals of 50g each and see how we go.

I've been reading through the diary quite a bit, looking for clues and patterns, but nothing is emerging, I note the time of poos and feeds.


----------



## LDK1

buffie said:


> ETA don't know why it has come up with access forbidden,it did that to MB too when she posted it


I'm having a deja vu moment as I posted the same link several posts back and had the same problem!  The link does work though.


----------



## buffie

LDK1 said:


> I'm having a deja vu moment as I posted the same link several posts back and had the same problem!  The link does work though.


Ooops sorry I must have missed it  This getting old lark is not funny  .
Great minds really do think alike


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Evening folks, sorry to have been AWOL for so long but I have been trying not to think IBD thoughts .
> Sorry to read that we all seem to be having a rough time of it at the moment ,it really is a bl**dy nightmare trying to find a way through this IBD.
> Meeko is still not eating wet food , he is lucky if he eats 100gs a day, he seems okay in as much as he will eat dry if I offer it to him but that isn't really an option as he still wont drink water
> 
> There is little point in taking him to the vets as he isn't ill at least nothing obvious ,just don't know what to try next.
> I've crushed stuff on top,sprinkled with Forti Flora you name it I've tried it but he has a few mouthfuls and then walks off.
> Came across this link to a good site on a thread posted by Moggybaby ,not sure if it has been posted before as there have been so many but thought it was worth posting in case it hasn't been............403: Access Forbidden


Evening Buffie and Meeko 

Sorry to hear Meeko is not eating much  come on Mr M stop being a fussy so and so and eat some more wet food  really hope his appetite increases really soon, with the colder weather starting hopefully it might encourage him to eat some more.

Thanks for the link, it does work  not seen this one before, I've book marked for a read tomorrow.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Ooops sorry I must have missed it  This getting old lark is not funny  .
> Great minds really do think alike


I must have missed it too


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Sylv, whenever riley has come off meds his symptoms worsen for a short period, I think as the body adjusts again, some times it's worth waiting it out for a few days to see why happens...
> 
> Oh how I hate ibd and what it does to our cats
> 
> Riley is now couple of good days then not so good, so he is improving slowly..but we are getting there..


I've just been judging by my vets view that any reduction in pred would produce symptoms within a couple of days if it was going to. I almost rang her yesterday evening to ask for advice but then decided that it wasn't fair to ring at 6.45pm on a routine issue.

I am so glad that Riley is improving.  I take the view that so long as its in the right direction any change is good even if its slow. I haven't phrased that very well. I hope that you know what I mean.

Come on IBDers lets all have some change in the right direction.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Evening folks, sorry to have been AWOL for so long but I have been trying not to think IBD thoughts .
> Sorry to read that we all seem to be having a rough time of it at the moment ,it really is a bl**dy nightmare trying to find a way through this IBD.
> Meeko is still not eating wet food , he is lucky if he eats 100gs a day, he seems okay in as much as he will eat dry if I offer it to him but that isn't really an option as he still wont drink water
> 
> There is little point in taking him to the vets as he isn't ill at least nothing obvious ,just don't know what to try next.
> I've crushed stuff on top,sprinkled with Forti Flora you name it I've tried it but he has a few mouthfuls and then walks off.
> Came across this link to a good site on a thread posted by Moggybaby ,not sure if it has been posted before as there have been so many but thought it was worth posting in case it hasn't been............403: Access Forbidden


Oh Buffie, I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling to get Meeko to eat. Do you think that it would be worth trying him with something quite different e g boiled rabbit. ?I know that Meeko's not a great lover of wet food but if he would eat the rabbit it would be better than giving him dry to try to tempt him.

Dylan decided that he wasn't going to eat any of the foods on offer when he had been so poorly a couple of months ago. One of the vets at my practice told me to try something quite different as they often associate the food which they have been eating with feeling ill. I tried the rabbit and much to my surprise he ate it. Its not complete but it might kick start Meeko's eating again. Incidently, I'm currently reading Cat Sense by John Bradshaw and he also states that a cat will often associate feeling ill with the food that they were eating at the time.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Oh Buffie, I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling to get Meeko to eat. Do you think that it would be worth trying him with something quite different e g boiled rabbit. ?I know that Meeko's not a great lover of wet food but if he would eat the rabbit it would be better than giving him dry to try to tempt him.
> 
> Dylan decided that he wasn't going to eat any of the foods on offer when he had been so poorly a couple of months ago. One of the vets at my practice told me to try something quite different as they often associate the food which they have been eating with feeling ill. I tried the rabbit and much to my surprise he ate it. Its not complete but it might kick start Meeko's eating again. Incidently, I'm currently reading Cat Sense by John Bradshaw and he also states that a cat will often associate feeling ill with the food that they were eating at the time.


I could try it but he just doesn't see any "human type food" as edible,chicken/turkey etc doesn't even get a sniff it is totally ignored .
I did a urine test this morning and he has blood in it again and the specific gravity is very high  . I think this will be a combo of not eating enough wet and also having a small amount of dry to compensate.So tough love will be deployed,have plugged in a pet remedy diffuser and started him back on zylkene incase it is a stress cystitis although nothing has changed in his use of the litter box Will test again in a week or so and if no improvement then he will be off to the vet(sooner if he needs it).


----------



## LDK1

buffie said:


> I could try it but he just doesn't see any "human type food" as edible,chicken/turkey etc doesn't even get a sniff it is totally ignored .
> I did a urine test this morning and he has blood in it again and the specific gravity is very high  . I think this will be a combo of not eating enough wet and also having a small amount of dry to compensate.So tough love will be deployed,have plugged in a pet remedy diffuser and started him back on zylkene incase it is a stress cystitis although nothing has changed in his use of the litter box Will test again in a week or so and if no improvement then he will be off to the vet(sooner if he needs it).


Oh Buffie, very sorry to just read this.  Crikey, IBD is bad enough without the added problems of cystitis.  It's quite stressful reading what's going on with everyone's cats at times.

Come on Meeko, sort yourself out for mummy!


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> I could try it but he just doesn't see any "human type food" as edible,chicken/turkey etc doesn't even get a sniff it is totally ignored .
> I did a urine test this morning and he has blood in it again and the specific gravity is very high  . I think this will be a combo of not eating enough wet and also having a small amount of dry to compensate.So tough love will be deployed,have plugged in a pet remedy diffuser and started him back on zylkene incase it is a stress cystitis although nothing has changed in his use of the litter box Will test again in a week or so and if no improvement then he will be off to the vet(sooner if he needs it).


Oh no! Poor Meeko.. Was he prescribed any meds when the urinary problem was diagnosed at the Royal Dick Veterinary Hospital.? Here's hoping that an improvement in the urinary tract issue will bring about an improvement in appetite. I realize that its a bit of a chicken and egg type issue but maybe some a/bs might kick start an improvement. Fingers ( and everything else )crossed that Meeko picks up soon.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> I could try it but he just doesn't see any "human type food" as edible,chicken/turkey etc doesn't even get a sniff it is totally ignored .
> I did a urine test this morning and he has blood in it again and the specific gravity is very high  . I think this will be a combo of not eating enough wet and also having a small amount of dry to compensate.So tough love will be deployed,have plugged in a pet remedy diffuser and started him back on zylkene incase it is a stress cystitis although nothing has changed in his use of the litter box Will test again in a week or so and if no improvement then he will be off to the vet(sooner if he needs it).


Sorry to hear this Buffie  fingers crossed the pet remedy and Zylkene have some affect and help him and you have better improved results when you next test.

I've been up since 3:40 this morning  Frank and Seb are still not used to having no food left down all the time, Seb ate and went back to bed  Frank seems like he is eating for 2 and had 2 pouches, Roman eventually ate the skippy with a couple of bits of the dry on top, the same at lunchtime, he are it without at dinner. There were no poos overnight, but a small runny one around 4:30 this morning and no poos until this evening when there was a huge explosion   I've spent the last hour and half scrubbing and cleaning poo from the toilet wall, door and floors and then the OH decides to drop a glass  arrrghhh men! :001_rolleyes:

Hope everyone else is doing o k xx


----------



## LDK1

Sorry to read about Roman tonight.  I hope his symptoms calm down a bit very soon.

I know there are probably loads of websites out there claiming they have 'cures' for these digestive issues, and one needs to read them with caution, but I came across this blog today and thought it might be of some interest:

How treatment-resistant feline IBS symptoms healed in one month (not just by food) | Natural Cat Care Blog


----------



## nicolaa123

buffie said:


> I could try it but he just doesn't see any "human type food" as edible,chicken/turkey etc doesn't even get a sniff it is totally ignored .
> I did a urine test this morning and he has blood in it again and the specific gravity is very high  . I think this will be a combo of not eating enough wet and also having a small amount of dry to compensate.So tough love will be deployed,have plugged in a pet remedy diffuser and started him back on zylkene incase it is a stress cystitis although nothing has changed in his use of the litter box Will test again in a week or so and if no improvement then he will be off to the vet(sooner if he needs it).


Oh no sounds like we are all in the wars again!! All crossed he takes to the wet again..



sarahecp said:


> Sorry to hear this Buffie  fingers crossed the pet remedy and Zylkene have some affect and help him and you have better improved results when you next test.
> 
> I've been up since 3:40 this morning  Frank and Seb are still not used to having no food left down all the time, Seb ate and went back to bed  Frank seems like he is eating for 2 and had 2 pouches, Roman eventually ate the skippy with a couple of bits of the dry on top, the same at lunchtime, he are it without at dinner. There were no poos overnight, but a small runny one around 4:30 this morning and no poos until this evening when there was a huge explosion   I've spent the last hour and half scrubbing and cleaning poo from the toilet wall, door and floors and then the OH decides to drop a glass  arrrghhh men! :001_rolleyes:
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing o k xx


Are you adding the pumpkin?


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Sorry to read about Roman tonight.  I hope his symptoms calm down a bit very soon.
> 
> I know there are probably loads of websites out there claiming they have 'cures' for these digestive issues, and one needs to read them with caution, but I came across this blog today and thought it might be of some interest:
> 
> How treatment-resistant feline IBS symptoms healed in one month (not just by food) | Natural Cat Care Blog


Thank you, I'll have a read.



nicolaa123 said:


> Oh no sounds like we are all in the wars again!! All crossed he takes to the wet again..
> 
> Are you adding the pumpkin?


Pumpkin added, that's why I thought he was a bit reluctant to eat it this morning and lunchtime but no probs earlier when he had dinner.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Thank you, I'll have a read.
> 
> Pumpkin added, that's why I thought he was a bit reluctant to eat it this morning and lunchtime but no probs earlier when he had dinner.


Ok, try the next few meals with out pumpkin and then add half teaspoon to every other meal..and not amounts difference in output in your diary..it can some times just be a balancing act. If no difference try the other way ie 2 teaspoons per meal etc etc


----------



## buffie

LDK1 said:


> Oh Buffie, very sorry to just read this.  Crikey, IBD is bad enough without the added problems of cystitis.  It's quite stressful reading what's going on with everyone's cats at times.
> 
> Come on Meeko, sort yourself out for mummy!


This is not new,he had quite a worrying episode back in March this year,ending with a scan/bloods and a catheter inserted to blow air into his bladder to check for any abnormalities,everything seemed okay but one of his urine samples was like stewed tea 
Up until this point no a/bs were given as a bacterial culture had come back clear.This is when he was given an inj of convenia which gave him dire rear for 2 weeks .Not sure if it was the a/bs or the wet only diet but it did clear up and has been fine until now . Just hope I have caught it quickly and it doesn't escalate into a similar situation again.



Forester said:


> Oh no! Poor Meeko.. *Was he prescribed any meds when the urinary problem was diagnosed at the Royal Dick Veterinary Hospital.?* Here's hoping that an improvement in the urinary tract issue will bring about an improvement in appetite. I realize that its a bit of a chicken and egg type issue but maybe some a/bs might kick start an improvement. Fingers ( and everything else )crossed that Meeko picks up soon.


As above ^^^, there was no infection found in the bacterial culture so no point in giving a/bs,but the vet I saw when he pee'd what I can only describe as "stewed tea" gave him convenia as he was worried that if he did nothing it would be worse than giving a/bs when they weren't needed but it gave him dire rear 
I'm hoping it is just a stress cystitis or even a result of him not taking enough fluids.If it is it should clear up on its own,if not back to the vets it is.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Ok, try the next few meals with out pumpkin and then add half teaspoon to every other meal..and not amounts difference in output in your diary..it can some times just be a balancing act. If no difference try the other way ie 2 teaspoons per meal etc etc


I will try this and keep track in the diary, thanks Nicola x


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Sorry to hear this Buffie  fingers crossed the pet remedy and Zylkene have some affect and help him and you have better improved results when you next test.
> 
> I've been up since 3:40 this morning  Frank and Seb are still not used to having no food left down all the time, Seb ate and went back to bed  Frank seems like he is eating for 2 and had 2 pouches, Roman eventually ate the skippy with a couple of bits of the dry on top, the same at lunchtime, he are it without at dinner. There were no poos overnight, but a small runny one around 4:30 this morning and no poos until this evening when there was a huge explosion   I've spent the last hour and half scrubbing and cleaning poo from the toilet wall, door and floors and then the OH decides to drop a glass  arrrghhh men! :001_rolleyes:
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing o k xx


Oh Sarah so sorry to read that poor Roman is still having problems  I have no real advice as dire rear ,thankfully,so far,is not on Meeko's list of problems.


----------



## Forester

Fingers crossed that today will have been a better day for everyone, with no hunger strikes, vomits or runny poos.

Dylan has been ok since I went back to the 5mg pred..I've had a chat with my vet today and we're going to try a fortnight alternating daily between the 2.5mg and 5mg dose. The logic is that the 2.5mg days should prevent him getting dire rear again and the 5mg days should suppress the vomiting. 

She's happy to continue with 100mg Sensitivity Control wet and 120g boiled rabbit. I was concerned about feeding this for so long due to its incompleteness but she insists that its not bad at all.

love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves as well as anyone else who reads the thread.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Oh Sarah so sorry to read that poor Roman is still having problems  I have no real advice as dire rear ,thankfully,so far,is not on Meeko's list of problems.


Thanks Buffie's  xx I hope Meeko is being o k today and eating some wet food.



Forester said:


> Fingers crossed that today will have been a better day for everyone, with no hunger strikes, vomits or runny poos.
> 
> Dylan has been ok since I went back to the 5mg pred..I've had a chat with my vet today and we're going to try a fortnight alternating daily between the 2.5mg and 5mg dose. The logic is that the 2.5mg days should prevent him getting dire rear again and the 5mg days should suppress the vomiting.
> 
> She's happy to continue with 100mg Sensitivity Control wet and 120g boiled rabbit. I was concerned about feeding this for so long due to its incompleteness but she insists that its not bad at all.
> 
> love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves as well as anyone else who reads the thread.


Glad Dylan is o k  hopefully the different doses and alternate days help.

Roman seems a bit more livelier today  we've had quite a few games with the flying frenzy  we've not been out since Sunday because if the wet weather, but it's not bothering him   no poos overnight, quite a bit of runny poo when I got in at lunchtime, in the tray thankfully  nothing since. He's eating a lot better too  so fingers crossed and chanting firm poo firm poo  

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Fingers crossed that today will have been a better day for everyone, with no hunger strikes, vomits or runny poos.
> 
> Dylan has been ok since I went back to the 5mg pred..I've had a chat with my vet today and we're going to try a fortnight alternating daily between the 2.5mg and 5mg dose. The logic is that the 2.5mg days should prevent him getting dire rear again and the 5mg days should suppress the vomiting.
> 
> She's happy to continue with 100mg Sensitivity Control wet and 120g boiled rabbit. I was concerned about feeding this for so long due to its incompleteness but she insists that its not bad at all.
> 
> love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves as well as anyone else who reads the thread.


As she said how long to continue with the pred? Pleased things are improved for Dylan.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Buffie's  xx I hope Meeko is being o k today and eating some wet food.
> 
> Glad Dylan is o k  hopefully the different doses and alternate days help.
> 
> Roman seems a bit more livelier today  we've had quite a few games with the flying frenzy  we've not been out since Sunday because if the wet weather, but it's not bothering him   no poos overnight, quite a bit of runny poo when I got in at lunchtime, in the tray thankfully  nothing since. He's eating a lot better too  so fingers crossed and chanting firm poo firm poo
> 
> Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok xx


What was the food ratio today?


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> What was the food ratio today?


Breakfast and lunch was without pumpkin and dinner was with half a teaspoon. I will give another half with supper.

What I've been thinking about is, how long does it take to digest the food and when I would know what has come out is affected by has been eaten. Hope that makes sense, reading it back it doesn't


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> As she said how long to continue with the pred? Pleased things are improved for Dylan.


Thanks 

We're taking things a fortnight at a time and playing by ear. The 2.5mg was a reduction from the previous period of 2 weeks on 5mg. At the moment too little produces vomiting, too much produces dire rear. We need to find a balance for now and then hope that we can gradually reduce it.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Breakfast and lunch was without pumpkin and dinner was with half a teaspoon. I will give another half with supper.
> 
> What I've been thinking about is, how long does it take to digest the food and when I would know what has come out is affected by has been eaten. Hope that makes sense, reading it back it doesn't


I am pretty sure that I know what you mean. something like " How long does it take food to work through the system, from meal to poo?" Unfortunately I can't answer the question though. Sorry.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Breakfast and lunch was without pumpkin and dinner was with half a teaspoon. I will give another half with supper.
> 
> What I've been thinking about is, how long does it take to digest the food and when I would know what has come out is affected by has been eaten. Hope that makes sense, reading it back it doesn't


Perfect sense, which is why any change I give it at least three days before changing again..



Forester said:


> Thanks
> 
> We're taking things a fortnight at a time and playing by ear. The 2.5mg was a reduction from the previous period of 2 weeks on 5mg. At the moment too little produces vomiting, too much produces dire rear. We need to find a balance for now and then hope that we can gradually reduce it.


Makes sense..hopefully this will agree with both ends :thumbup1:


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I am pretty sure that I know what you mean. something like " How long does it take food to work through the system, from meal to poo?" Unfortunately I can't answer the question though. Sorry.





nicolaa123 said:


> Perfect sense, which is why any change I give it at least three days before changing again..
> 
> Makes sense..hopefully this will agree with both ends :thumbup1:


Glad you both understood what I was taking about  

I ordered some more skippy today and also some rabbit  I've received a dispatch email already  google helped me translate


----------



## iUmka

gonna sit quietly here, waiting for recommendations on what tooth brush and tooth paste to use.Zooplus has got something called PlaqueOff. Would that replace brushing?


----------



## Forester

Hi,
I hope that this finds everyone with good appetites, as well as sloppy poo and vomit free. 

Dylan's slow feeder arrived just before his lunch was due. He seemed fascinated with it when it came out of the box and tried to chew it.. It already has tooth marks in. 

My initial impression was that it would certainly slow his eating down. It took seconds for him to decide that the easiest way to remove food was with his paws. . 20 minutes later he was about half way through the meal which would normally take 30 seconds to eat. Unfortunately at that point he walked away and was promptly sick. . 

10 minutes later we tried again. (This is usually sufficient of a pause to allow the second offering to stay down ). He had ,by then, decided that he didn't like the feeder so I had to finger feed in order to get him to eat. He is now asleep on top of my wardrobe where he goes when he wants to be left alone.

I'll try the feeder again at tea time but with much larger pieces of meat so that he can take them out more easily, but one at a time. 

Hoping that everyone else's day is more successful.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Hi,
> I hope that this finds everyone with good appetites, as well as sloppy poo and vomit free.
> 
> Dylan's slow feeder arrived just before his lunch was due. He seemed fascinated with it when it came out of the box and tried to chew it.. It already has tooth marks in.
> 
> My initial impression was that it would certainly slow his eating down. It took seconds for him to decide that the easiest way to remove food was with his paws. . 20 minutes later he was about half way through the meal which would normally take 30 seconds to eat. Unfortunately at that point he walked away and was promptly sick. .
> 
> 10 minutes later we tried again. (This is usually sufficient of a pause to allow the second offering to stay down ). He had ,by then, decided that he didn't like the feeder so I had to finger feed in order to get him to eat. He is now asleep on top of my wardrobe where he goes when he wants to be left alone.
> 
> I'll try the feeder again at tea time but with much larger pieces of meat so that he can take them out more easily, but one at a time.
> 
> Hoping that everyone else's day is more successful.


Hi there,

Hmmm, not a great start I'm sorry to read. 

Have you ever been able to find an amount that Dylan can eat in one go and never be sick? At the moment, giving Rosie no more than 10g of z/d dry at a time (except 15g at 10pm) is working quite well.

The other day I gave Rosie 10g at lunchtime as normal but she was looking at me like she wanted more, so I gave her another 3g straight away and she was sick! If I had waited half an hour or so, I'm pretty sure she would have been alright. I also wonder if giving her the dry is slowing down her eating as the kibble is quite small and not so easy to pick up - not that she's ever been that fast an eater anyway though, but the smaller meals do seem to help.

It's still less than two weeks on this new z/d trial, but her vomiting has definitely gone down a bit.

My only real news is that yesterday I discovered to my horror that Rosie and Watson have fleas!!!  Luckily I had some Advantage in the cupboard. :devil:

Best wishes to all kitties and slaves.


----------



## sarahecp

Oh Sylv, sorry to hear Dylan was sick  fingers crossed it's a one off and hope he comes down from the wardrobe soon. 

My boys would have chewed it too  and could imagine them trying to empty it out especially Frank. 

Roman only had 1 poo yesterday at 4am, was runny with a few small firm bits in. This mornings poo was a firmish lump and a runny bit, no more since. Not getting too excited yet. 

I decided against the advocate spot on for him and just did Frank and Seb. 

My Vet-Concept order arrived today  wasn't expecting it until probably Monday/Tuesday. I'm very very impressed with their service :thumbup: 

Hope everyone is doing o k xx


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Hmmm, not a great start I'm sorry to read.
> 
> Have you ever been able to find an amount that Dylan can eat in one go and never be sick? At the moment, giving Rosie no more than 10g of z/d dry at a time (except 15g at 10pm) is working quite well.
> 
> The other day I gave Rosie 10g at lunchtime as normal but she was looking at me like she wanted more, so I gave her another 3g straight away and she was sick! If I had waited half an hour or so, I'm pretty sure she would have been alright. I also wonder if giving her the dry is slowing down her eating as the kibble is quite small and not so easy to pick up - not that she's ever been that fast an eater anyway though, but the smaller meals do seem to help.
> 
> It's still less than two weeks on this new z/d trial, but her vomiting has definitely gone down a bit.
> 
> My only real news is that yesterday I discovered to my horror that Rosie and Watson have fleas!!!  Luckily I had some Advantage in the cupboard. :devil:
> 
> Best wishes to all kitties and slaves.


Sorry to hear Rosie was sick  it does sound like the smaller/lesser meals are better for her. Glad to hear her vomiting has reduced though 

All fingers and paws crossed for the fleas to be gone.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Hmmm, not a great start I'm sorry to read.
> 
> Have you ever been able to find an amount that Dylan can eat in one go and never be sick? At the moment, giving Rosie no more than 10g of z/d dry at a time (except 15g at 10pm) is working quite well.
> 
> The other day I gave Rosie 10g at lunchtime as normal but she was looking at me like she wanted more, so I gave her another 3g straight away and she was sick! If I had waited half an hour or so, I'm pretty sure she would have been alright. I also wonder if giving her the dry is slowing down her eating as the kibble is quite small and not so easy to pick up - not that she's ever been that fast an eater anyway though, but the smaller meals do seem to help.
> 
> It's still less than two weeks on this new z/d trial, but her vomiting has definitely gone down a bit.
> 
> My only real news is that yesterday I discovered to my horror that Rosie and Watson have fleas!!!  Luckily I had some Advantage in the cupboard. :devil:
> 
> Best wishes to all kitties and slaves.


LDK1 its excellent news that you've established that Rosie won't vomit any meal below a certain size.  It sounds as though you have something to work from. Did this apply before you started the z/d?

Its good that you had the Advantage though I doubt whether Rosie and Watson will agree with me.  Have you managed to treat your furnishings with something. ?

I don't think that its possible to say that a meal smaller than x amount can be guaranteed to stay down with Dylan. I used to split his breakfast into 3 courses and found that the first course might be returned even if it was only a couple of teaspoons full.  He is definitely better with small meals but we can never be confident that anything won't be returned. He used to be able to tolerate larger meals in the evening but that doesn't seem to be the case any more.

If Dylan has eaten a small meal ( 20g wet) and I attempt to give him more a couple of hours later (because he has asked for more) then there is every chance that it will come back.



sarahecp said:


> Oh Sylv, sorry to hear Dylan was sick  fingers crossed it's a one off and hope he comes down from the wardrobe soon.
> 
> My boys would have chewed it too  and could imagine them trying to empty it out especially Frank.
> 
> Roman only had 1 poo yesterday at 4am, was runny with a few small firm bits in. This mornings poo was a firmish lump and a runny bit, no more since. Not getting too excited yet.
> 
> I decided against the advocate spot on for him and just did Frank and Seb.
> 
> My Vet-Concept order arrived today  wasn't expecting it until probably Monday/Tuesday. I'm very very impressed with their service :thumbup:
> 
> Hope everyone is doing o k xx


Dyl came down from the wardrobe but sadly we had " returns" at afternoon tea.. So much for the feeder but I'm glad that I tried it. If I hadn't I would always have wondered.

Sarah, Fingers crossed that this is a sign of " firm poo " to come.  How much kangaroo are you feeding now?

Its great news that your V C order has arrived. They certainly are a good company to deal with.I really hope that the food works for him, I was most disappointed when it didn't suit Dyl.

Sending positive vibes to all.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> LDK1 its excellent news that you've established that Rosie won't vomit any meal below a certain size.  It sounds as though you have something to work from. Did this apply before you started the z/d?
> 
> Its good that you had the Advantage though I doubt whether Rosie and Watson will agree with me.  Have you managed to treat your furnishings with something. ?
> 
> I don't think that its possible to say that a meal smaller than x amount can be guaranteed to stay down with Dylan. I used to split his breakfast into 3 courses and found that the first course might be returned even if it was only a couple of teaspoons full.  He is definitely better with small meals but we can never be confident that anything won't be returned. He used to be able to tolerate larger meals in the evening but that doesn't seem to be the case any more.
> 
> If Dylan has eaten a small meal ( 20g wet) and I attempt to give him more a couple of hours later (because he has asked for more) then there is every chance that it will come back.
> 
> Dyl came down from the wardrobe but sadly we had " returns" at afternoon tea.. So much for the feeder but I'm glad that I tried it. If I hadn't I would always have wondered.
> 
> Sarah, Fingers crossed that this is a sign of " firm poo " to come.  How much kangaroo are you feeding now?
> 
> Its great news that your V C order has arrived. They certainly are a good company to deal with.I really hope that the food works for him, I was most disappointed when it didn't suit Dyl.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to all.


So glad that Dyl came down  sorry to hear he was sick again  what dose of Pred was he on today?

I'm keeping everything crossed it is a good sign. He's eating about 30g of the kangaroo and I've upped the pumpkin to a heaped teaspoon, because he's not eating the full 50g I've decided to give 5 meals instead of 4.

He also seems a bit more like his old self today and was asking to go out and sitting by the back door quite a bit, we didn't go out though.


----------



## nicolaa123

Slyv, just a thought, if Dylan was to be free fed would he graze or demolish?

Ldk, hopefully the fleas can be quickly dealt with!

Sarah..good positive signs


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> So glad that Dyl came down  sorry to hear he was sick again  what dose of Pred was he on today?
> 
> I'm keeping everything crossed it is a good sign. He's eating about 30g of the kangaroo and I've upped the pumpkin to a heaped teaspoon, because he's not eating the full 50g I've decided to give 5 meals instead of 4.
> 
> He also seems a bit more like his old self today and was asking to go out and sitting by the back door quite a bit, we didn't go out though.


It definitely sounds as though Roman is feeling a bit brighter . Do you notice any difference between the days just after he's had the Chlorambucil and the other days?

Today's vomiting came after a 5mg pred day. ( I give it in the evening). Tonight was a 2.5 mg dose so tomorrow will be interesting. I'm wondering whether the rabbit is now causing a problem.. He never vomits with the overnight feeds ( Sensitivity Control ). I'm wondering whether the pattern would change if I rearranged his feeds to have rabbit at night and SC during the day. Part of me is considering whether I should try to go back to all SC though I really do not like the ingredients. It goes against everything that I believe.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Slyv, just a thought, if Dylan was to be free fed would he graze or demolish?


Nicola, I think that he would just pig himself. My vet did ask me once whether I thought that it would be feasible to free feed him. TBH I don't think that it would work.

Sadly he has to be watched with everything, not just cat food. When we first had him he managed to get hold of cabbage, fruit cake and porridge. I suspect that previous dietary indiscretions were the initial cause of his problems. He was a stray and may well have had too many McDonalds.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Nicola, I think that he would just pig himself. My vet did ask me once whether I thought that it would be feasible to free feed him. TBH I don't think that it would work.
> 
> Sadly he has to be watched with everything, not just cat food. When we first had him he managed to get hold of cabbage, fruit cake and porridge. I suspect that previous dietary indiscretions were the initial cause of his problems. He was a stray and may well have had too many McDonalds.


Just me thinking out loud..would he never learn to regulate himself? If he saw food down all the time would he learn that he doesn't need to hoover it up, could you kind of fool him with leaving down something he doesn't Hoover up, kind of safe reverse psychology?


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> It definitely sounds as though Roman is feeling a bit brighter . Do you notice any difference between the days just after he's had the Chlorambucil and the other days?
> 
> Today's vomiting came after a 5mg pred day. ( I give it in the evening). Tonight was a 2.5 mg dose so tomorrow will be interesting. I'm wondering whether the rabbit is now causing a problem.. He never vomits with the overnight feeds ( Sensitivity Control ). I'm wondering whether the pattern would change if I rearranged his feeds to have rabbit at night and SC during the day. Part of me is considering whether I should try to go back to all SC though I really do not like the ingredients. It goes against everything that I believe.


Will be interesting to see if there's a difference.

I really don't know what to advise about the food, sorry. I get scared making a decision about Roman's.

I've not noticed a pattern yet but have been looking, since he's been off the dry I think he seems better in himself but this could be coincidence. He's not drinking as much and there's more wee over the last couple of days.

Since no food being left down, I've noticed Frank and Seb eating more, frank wanting constant food and Roman eating less.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1 its excellent news that you've established that Rosie won't vomit any meal below a certain size.  It sounds as though you have something to work from. Did this apply before you started the z/d?
> 
> Its good that you had the Advantage though I doubt whether Rosie and Watson will agree with me.  Have you managed to treat your furnishings with something. ?
> 
> .


When Rosie started vomiting months ago, I did start to give her less and less food at that time - particularly in the mornings. She would be alright for a while, and then she would start vomiting again on the smaller amounts (and more regularly), and sometimes not even finishing her food. I thought it was time to see a vet rather than try yet smaller portions, though again, no problem eating a big meal late evening! 

The strange thing is that the two times I had to starve her for GAs, she came back from the vet's with a big appetite for several days and no vomiting. I wonder if she temporarily felt better for not having any food potentially aggrevating her gut for about 18 hours? But after several days the vomiting did start again.

I'm not sure smaller meals in the mornings are the final solution, but they are at the moment helping me to get through this food trial. After that, a lot is going to depend on how she responds when a different food is eventually introduced.

Re the fleas: the only 'furniture' I've treated are their cardboard scratch beds - that corrugated stuff is a perfect hiding place for flea larvae! Yuck!


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Part of me is considering whether I should try to go back to all SC though I really do not like the ingredients. It goes against everything that I believe.


Dry food or foods with grains (apart from rice) goes totally against my feeding preferences. I've read things about hydrolysed diets being particulary bad - you cannot get a more unnatural way of delivering nutrients to a cat.

BUT - despite the vomiting huge hairballs, increased thirst and lethargy, I decided to give the dry z/d a second go - just for the trial - and her vomiting has started to go down a bit.

*Stopping the vomiting is my number one priority* as I am terrified about any longterm damage for Rosie *-* so I will shelve my preferences for the time being.

I think if the vomiting stops for long enough (maybe 3 months), the gut may heal itself - and then I can start to get her back to a better quality diet.

That's the way I'm now looking at things if that helps at all.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Just me thinking out loud..would he never learn to regulate himself? If he saw food down all the time would he learn that he doesn't need to hoover it up, could you kind of fool him with leaving down something he doesn't Hoover up, kind of safe reverse psychology?


If I keep filling his dish he will eat until he is sick, and then start again. I did, at one time ,try an experiment to try to get him to self regulate. I fed " on demand". My nerve only held out for about 10 days by which time his waist had disappeared. 

I like the idea of the reverse psychology.:thumbsup: Unfortunately he's only allowed the SC pouches and rabbit. He was only allowed the SC pouches but when he refused these about 6 weeks ago the rabbit was introduced, and approved by my vet. There also isn't really anything he won't wolf down ( except scrambled egg or steamed fish ). One evening I put his pred tablet on the kitchen worktop and he ate that when my back was turned.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> When Rosie started vomiting months ago, I did start to give her less and less food at that time - particularly in the mornings. She would be alright for a while, and then she would start vomiting again on the smaller amounts (and more regularly), and sometimes not even finishing her food. I thought it was time to see a vet rather than try yet smaller portions, though again, no problem eating a big meal late evening!
> 
> The strange thing is that the two times I had to starve her for GAs, she came back from the vet's with a big appetite for several days and no vomiting. I wonder if she temporarily felt better for not having any food potentially aggrevating her gut for about 18 hours? But after several days the vomiting did start again.
> 
> I'm not sure smaller meals in the mornings are the final solution, but they are at the moment helping me to get through this food trial. After that, a lot is going to depend on how she responds when a different food is eventually introduced.
> 
> Re the fleas: the only 'furniture' I've treated are their cardboard scratch beds - that corrugated stuff is a perfect hiding place for flea larvae! Yuck!


LDK1. I find it very interesting that Rosie's vomiting improved for a while after being starved for GA. Dylan improved immensely after his GA for endoscopy. For a week before endoscopy he had been vomiting almost daily but since then has been going 2 weeks at a time between " clusters".

If the smaller meals help you to get through the food trial then I'm sure that you are doing the right thing for now. Getting through the trial has to be your priority.

I've been lucky enough to never experience a flea problem with any of my cats though I've had times when I've been bitten by something in my horse's hay. When this happens I find that I'm continually scratching in expectation. I do hope that you don't suffer in the same way.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Dry food or foods with grains (apart from rice) goes totally against my feeding preferences. I've read things about hydrolysed diets being particulary bad - you cannot get a more unnatural way of delivering nutrients to a cat.
> 
> BUT - despite the vomiting huge hairballs, increased thirst and lethargy, I decided to give the dry z/d a second go - just for the trial - and her vomiting has started to go down a bit.
> 
> *Stopping the vomiting is my number one priority* as I am terrified about any longterm damage for Rosie *-* so I will shelve my preferences for the time being.
> 
> I think if the vomiting stops for long enough (maybe 3 months), the gut may heal itself - and then I can start to get her back to a better quality diet.
> 
> That's the way I'm now looking at things if that helps at all.


I could not agree with you more.

My dilemma is that Dylan was put onto the SC in January. Although he initially went 23 days without vomiting that interval has gradually reduced. He is now, on average, vomiting more frequently than he was in January. This leads me to wonder whether it has actually helped him at all.  

My initial thought was that I didn't mind it for a short period if it helped but we are 9 months down the line and I'm not sure whether we have got very far at all.


----------



## Pook

We just got our three kittens (two boys, one girl) fixed Monday. They did very well! They were almost 5 months old.
We've named them Buster, Tuxy, and Molly (nicknames in order: Knuckles, The Tux, and Princess).
I guess they're ours now. We love them and our 5 adult cats have stopped hissing and swatting at them...unless there are tails involved and someone gets a swat now and then!


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1. I find it very interesting that Rosie's vomiting improved for a while after being starved for GA. Dylan improved immensely after his GA for endoscopy. For a week before endoscopy he had been vomiting almost daily but since then has been going 2 weeks at a time between " clusters".





Forester said:


> My dilemma is that Dylan was put onto the SC in January. Although he initially went 23 days without vomiting that interval has gradually reduced. He is now, on average, vomiting more frequently than he was in January. This leads me to wonder whether it has actually helped him at all.
> 
> My initial thought was that I didn't mind it for a short period if it helped but we are 9 months down the line and I'm not sure whether we have got very far at all.


Very interesting that you observed the same situation re: the starving. In that article about acid reflux on petMD, withholding food was mentioned as a starting treatment. It also mentioned feeding a low protein, low fat diet. It says 'protein stimulates the production of gastric acid'.

What was the result of Dylan's endoscopy? Sorry but my ability to retain information is zero I'm afraid! 

Ahh, I didn't realise Dylan started vomiting on the exclusively fed RC. As there is no improvement 9 months down the line I'm surprised your vet hasn't tried a different kind of diet.

I would have suggested the dry z/d, but it's still too early to say for sure that it's solving Rosie's vomiting. I can't say yet if it will be the miracle cure but it might be worth a shot. Like you said, you've got to look at things over a block of several weeks to get a better picture.


----------



## sarahecp

We have firm poo :thumbup:   I don't want to get too excited but I am   

I was getting a bit worried, no poo overnight, I was up at a ridicous hour again  he had breakfast, still nothing, so at 5:30 went and did my grocery shopping, hoping to come back home to a poo, nothing! Then around 10 he had one  I did a happy dance and we went in the garden to play flying frenzy to celebrate   now waiting for the next one  

Hope everyone is doing o k today, hope there's no vomiting or runny poos xx


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Very interesting that you observed the same situation re: the starving. In that article about acid reflux on petMD, withholding food was mentioned as a starting treatment. It also mentioned feeding a low protein, low fat diet. It says 'protein stimulates the production of gastric acid'.
> 
> What was the result of Dylan's endoscopy? Sorry but my ability to retain information is zero I'm afraid!
> 
> Ahh, I didn't realise Dylan started vomiting on the exclusively fed RC. As there is no improvement 9 months down the line I'm surprised your vet hasn't tried a different kind of diet.
> 
> I would have suggested the dry z/d, but it's still too early to say for sure that it's solving Rosie's vomiting. I can't say yet if it will be the miracle cure but it might be worth a shot. Like you said you've got to look at things over a block of several weeks to get a better picture.


Thank you for finding the statement about protein and gastric acid. I knew that I'd seen it previously but couldn't remember where. I did bring it up ( probably not the best phrase to use on this thread ) with my vet. I wondered whether I might have caused Dylan's problems by feeding high ( 12% ) protein foods prior to our first visit to the vet. She told me that it would not have caused him to produce more stomach acid.

Dylan's endoscopy revealed " absolutely nothing ". Visual checks showed nothing, pinch biopsies- normal, x rays normal, bloods normal.

There is absolutely no need to apologise for not remembering anything on this thread. There is so much information that I often forget what is happening from one post to the next. It probably shows in some of my posts .

We've tried different diets but just keep coming back to the Sensitivity Control pouches as that's what he's been best on. We've tried Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal- not too bad,Z/D canned- terrible he refused to eat at all after just 2 bites, and Vet Concept kangaroo- vomiting daily. I, myself have also dabbled trying Ropocat chicken, Ropocat venison and Ropocat lamb all of which brought about a dramatic increase in vomiting.
Of all the foods the RCSC seems about the best. The rabbit was introduced when he decided that he wouldn't eat the RCSC.

My vet did want me to try dry food but I refused. At the time I felt that there were plenty of wet options to try.:frown2: Sadly I seem to be running out of food options or ideas. Its really starting to get me down. Each setback seems worse than the one before as there's less left to try.

I truly do feel that Dylan's problems are multifactorial. The most successful thing which I've tried was the introduction of two meals overnight. One made no difference but two really does seem to have helped. 

I must apologise if I sound negative. I am just at my wits end to know what to do for him. He is the sweetest natured cat I have ever encountered and I feel that I'm failing him. Please excuse me but I'll have to finish this here. I can't see to type through the tears.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> We have firm poo :thumbup:   I don't want to get too excited but I am
> 
> I was getting a bit worried, no poo overnight, I was up at a ridicous hour again  he had breakfast, still nothing, so at 5:30 went and did my grocery shopping, hoping to come back home to a poo, nothing! Then around 10 he had one  I did a happy dance and we went in the garden to play flying frenzy to celebrate   now waiting for the next one
> 
> Hope everyone is doing o k today, hope there's no vomiting or runny poos xx


Yippee .   

You've just perked me up. I'm so glad that you're having a good day.

love and Good Day vibes to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Yippee .
> 
> You've just perked me up. I'm so glad that you're having a good day.
> 
> love and Good Day vibes to all


How's Dylan today? I'm hoping he and you are having a better day xx


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> I must apologise if I sound negative. I am just at my wits end to know what to do for him. He is the sweetest natured cat I have ever encountered and I feel that I'm failing him. *Please excuse me but I'll have to finish this here. I can't see to type through the tears*.


Oh, I am so sad to read this. Really feeling for you right now. No need to apologise! <hug>

I'm surprised that nothing was found on the endoscopy. I would have thought there would be some inflammation from the constant vomiting - but not finding any problems is a really good thing, even though it would have be good to know exactly what one was dealing with.

I know that all cats are different, but I am really wondering whether you should give the z/d dry a go? Rosie refused the z/d wet, but really seems to like the dry. I think it takes a while for the body to adjust to this product - but keeping the meals small is helping. I think if you are now running out of wet options it is worth a shot.

I totally agree with you thinking that there is more than one factor to what's going on. I also fed my two higher protein wet diets, but my boy doesn't have the same problem, so it's not just down to that - but there may be some kind of 'sensitivity' to certain ingredients that has developed with the likes of Dylan and Rosie that just doesn't happen to all cats.

These things can happen inspite of trying to do everything the right way.

Sending lots of healing vibes to Dylan and his slave...


----------



## sarahecp

Oh Sylv, please don't feel you're failing Dylan because you're not, you're doing your best for him, he's loved and cared for by you. I really can understand how you're feeling, we all do and we're here for you. 

Like you told me, we will get there. 

Love and hugs to you and Dyl xx


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Oh, I am so sad to read this. Really feeling for you right now. No need to apologise! <hug>
> 
> I'm surprised that nothing was found on the endoscopy. I would have thought there would be some inflammation from the constant vomiting - but not finding any problems is a really good thing, even though it would have be good to know exactly what one was dealing with.
> 
> I know that all cats are different, but I am really wondering whether you should give the z/d dry a go? Rosie refused the z/d wet, but really seems to like the dry. I think it takes a while for the body to adjust to this product - but keeping the meals small is helping. I think if you are now running out of wet options it is worth a shot.
> 
> I totally agree with you thinking that there is more than one factor to what's going on. I also fed my two higher protein wet diets, but my boy doesn't have the same problem, so it's not just down to that - but there may be some kind of 'sensitivity' to certain ingredients that has developed with the likes of Dylan and Rosie that just doesn't happen to all cats.
> 
> These things can happen inspite of trying to do everything the right way.
> 
> Sending lots of healing vibes to Dylan and his slave...


Thank you so much for your support LDK1  ( the hug was most appreciated  ) and for the support of Nicola, Sarah, Buffie and Bluecordelia.  I'm sorry but it all seems to have got on top of me today. There just doesn't seem anywhere else to go with Dylan's diet.

I would *never *criticise anyone else for feeding dry food but at this point in time I don't feel that I could do it with Dylan. My loss of Eric from CKD still haunts me. I suspect that it always will.

I may be clutching at straws but I have a deep routed conviction that there must be a simple , non food ingredient related factor involved somewhere. Why else would he stop vomiting at breakfast time when 2 overnight meals are included? I had pinned so much hope on that slow feeder ( I'd been debating trying it for ages) and now that hope has gone.

Every protein tried has produced an adverse reaction at some time - chicken, venison, lamb, rabbit, kangaroo, turkey. My own ideas have got us nowhere and I worry that my stubbornness and determination to do what I believe to be right for Dylan have only made things worse for him.

I am so, so glad that Roman has produced solid poo today.  I do believe that its a step in the right direction. :thumbup1:

I'm willing Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie to all have solid poo, no vomiting and a good appetite.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> I would *never *criticise anyone else for feeding dry food but at this point in time I don't feel that I could do it with Dylan. My loss of Eric from CKD still haunts me. I suspect that it always will.
> 
> I may be clutching at straws but I have a deep routed conviction that there must be a simple , non food ingredient related factor involved somewhere. Why else would he stop vomiting at breakfast time when 2 overnight meals are included? I had pinned so much hope on that slow feeder ( I'd been debating trying it for ages) and now that hope has gone.
> 
> Every protein tried has produced an adverse reaction at some time - chicken, venison, lamb, rabbit, kangaroo, turkey. My own ideas have got us nowhere and I worry that my stubbornness and determination to do what I believe to be right for Dylan have only made things worse for him.
> 
> I am so, so glad that Roman has produced solid poo today.  I do believe that its a step in the right direction. :thumbup1:
> 
> I'm willing Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie to all have solid poo, no vomiting and a good appetite.


I'm afraid I know nothing about CKD, but I can understand your reluctance to feed dry if you feel it might have contributed to it. I'm very sorry to hear about Eric.

Again, I can only agree with your thinking regarding trying to find other possible triggers besides, or as well as, the food.

How old is Dylan BTW? My Rosie is around 5 and a half years old.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Thank you so much for your support LDK1  ( the hug was most appreciated  ) and for the support of Nicola, Sarah, Buffie and Bluecordelia.  I'm sorry but it all seems to have got on top of me today. There just doesn't seem anywhere else to go with Dylan's diet.
> 
> I would *never *criticise anyone else for feeding dry food but at this point in time I don't feel that I could do it with Dylan. My loss of Eric from CKD still haunts me. I suspect that it always will.
> 
> I may be clutching at straws but I have a deep routed conviction that there must be a simple , non food ingredient related factor involved somewhere. Why else would he stop vomiting at breakfast time when 2 overnight meals are included? I had pinned so much hope on that slow feeder ( I'd been debating trying it for ages) and now that hope has gone.
> 
> Every protein tried has produced an adverse reaction at some time - chicken, venison, lamb, rabbit, kangaroo, turkey. My own ideas have got us nowhere and I worry that my stubbornness and determination to do what I believe to be right for Dylan have only made things worse for him.
> 
> I am so, so glad that Roman has produced solid poo today.  I do believe that its a step in the right direction. :thumbup1:
> 
> I'm willing Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie to all have solid poo, no vomiting and a good appetite.


Ok lady..number one you have not failed at all..ibd is an awful condiiton that if we let it gets under our skin and makes us feel miserable!

Riley can only eat one food and still has issues, I have searched for "that" food and I used to panic about what off things got really bad and severe on the kanagroo I don't have another food and he still has diarreah on kanagroo..now I think we'll mostly he is ok on the food, not perfect but well I'm not going to find perfect, plus if I don't find another food and he has a severe reaction to the kanagroo I will deal with that then..

You may have to face that food isn't the issue but his body for whatever reason vomits the food put into it and whilst he remains happy, active and his weight and or condition isn't affected then vomiting his part of his life, very much like riley will always have a runny bum that he wipes on the curtains . it would be worth asking the vet about something like chlorambucil as an immunosuppressant drug rather than the pred, but don't beat yourself up.

I know I know I know I've been the one beating myself up, blaming myself and feeling like I've failed, but well now I choose my battles and I celebrate any victories..after a month riley has had two clean bum nights and to say I'm happy is well an understatement!

Some times with ibd and our ideas, we have to try them, stop, try again, stop, try again and again so don't give up on the feeder just yet..

To make you smile tho..foxy is back to the hospital tomorrow, I had her out to say goodbye to riley..she was paddimg in his fur, he was all pushing his ears to her as he likes her sniffing and putting her nose in his ears 

Then I saw her mouth open, teeth bared and chunk..she clamped her teeth on his ears ..his expression is still making me laugh with tears..it was just like a carry on movie or like a scenes form scooby doo! No noise just a plea in his eyes to remove the big bully hog from his ears..I took her off him and do you know what he then snuggled up to her 

Tomorrow you will wake up stronger and ready to fight again!

I wish I could help more I really do..but my best advice is, let go of finding a cure for Dylan and just think about his health in other ways, if that makes sense

Foxy sends a hug as does riley as does me!


----------



## sarahecp

That made me :lol: :lol: poor Riley  bet he wasn't expecting that  

Riley's going to miss Foxy when she goes back today. 


Oh, and where are the photos?


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Ok lady..number one you have not failed at all..ibd is an awful condiiton that if we let it gets under our skin and makes us feel miserable!
> 
> Riley can only eat one food and still has issues, I have searched for "that" food and I used to panic about what off things got really bad and severe on the kanagroo I don't have another food and he still has diarreah on kanagroo..now I think we'll mostly he is ok on the food, not perfect but well I'm not going to find perfect, plus if I don't find another food and he has a severe reaction to the kanagroo I will deal with that then..
> 
> You may have to face that food isn't the issue but his body for whatever reason vomits the food put into it and whilst he remains happy, active and his weight and or condition isn't affected then vomiting his part of his life, very much like riley will always have a runny bum that he wipes on the curtains . it would be worth asking the vet about something like chlorambucil as an immunosuppressant drug rather than the pred, but don't beat yourself up.
> 
> I know I know I know I've been the one beating myself up, blaming myself and feeling like I've failed, but well now I choose my battles and I celebrate any victories..after a month riley has had two clean bum nights and to say I'm happy is well an understatement!
> 
> Some times with ibd and our ideas, we have to try them, stop, try again, stop, try again and again so don't give up on the feeder just yet..
> 
> To make you smile tho..foxy is back to the hospital tomorrow, I had her out to say goodbye to riley..she was paddimg in his fur, he was all pushing his ears to her as he likes her sniffing and putting her nose in his ears
> 
> Then I saw her mouth open, teeth bared and chunk..she clamped her teeth on his ears ..his expression is still making me laugh with tears..it was just like a carry on movie or like a scenes form scooby doo! No noise just a plea in his eyes to remove the big bully hog from his ears..I took her off him and do you know what he then snuggled up to her
> 
> Tomorrow you will wake up stronger and ready to fight again!
> 
> I wish I could help more I really do..but my best advice is, let go of finding a cure for Dylan and just think about his health in other ways, if that makes sense
> 
> Foxy sends a hug as does riley as does me!


Nicola , Thank you so so much . 
You have just dragged me back from a place I never wish to visit again. I am so appreciative, and touched, by your words and that you have taken the trouble to support me when you have more than enough problems of your own.

You are so right, I need to stand back from Dylan's situation, enjoy the good days and not take the setbacks to heart. I need to look at him as others do, a happy ,affectionate, cat who appears the picture of health with his soft, glossy black coat.

My vet warned me that we were in for a long haul. At the time I thought that she was referring to the long process of identifying dietary triggers but now I realise that may not have been what she meant..

The description of Foxy and Riley has certainly made me smile. I'm sure that Riley is going to miss her when she's back at the hospital. I hope that she didn't draw blood on his ear. I've never heard of a cat with a love bite before.:lol:

Poor Riley, do you have him on any medication at the moment ?

Sarah, Thank you too for your support, I'd be in a worse position without you too. When I was struggling yesterday and then saw your post about Roman's solid poo it really perked me up . I was crying and trying to smile at the same time. I have my fingers crossed that Roman will provide you with more firm poo today, tomorrow and from now on.

LDK1. Dylan is just 2. I adopted him at 6 months in March 13. He was vomiting occaisionaly then. We put it down to the fact that he'd been a stray, and had an insatiable appetite. If allowed to he would eat until he vomited every time. Food was inhaled and not eaten. He also had a massive tapeworm burden.

I'm going to temporarily disregard the 2 incidents of vomiting with the feeder and try to look at the bigger picture. He has never before vomited consequetive meals so I don't think that it can be a coincidence that this was when I used the feeder. He hasn't vomited since and is his usual happy, affectionate self.

Sending love and positive vibes to all IBD kitties and their slaves whose advice has re-energised me for the fight against IBD.
Thank You.:thumbup:


----------



## buffie

Hi guys,really sorry not to have been around on here for a bit,hope you don't think that I don't care how you are all doing.
With Meeko going off his wet/having blood in his urine and just IBD in general I was really feeling a bit deflated  .Normally I just look at how he is in himself and work on the idea that if he seems okay then he probably is,but the reluctance to eat and then the urine test just knocked me back to where we were 6 months ago.
He seems to have (hopefully) picked up again and although not eating his normal 200g of wet we are nearly there ,havnt tested his urine yet,will leave that another week or so.

Sorry to read that you all seem to be having mixed days ,I havnt read back through all of the posts but I will .
Hope things improve for all our masters/mistresses soon


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv, I'm glad you're feeling better today  and that Dylan hasn't been sick anymore 

I'm glad Nicola's post has helped you see a clearer picture of IBD, it certainly has helped me  so thanks Nicola  we're all in this together whether it's runny poo or vomiting, we're here to help and support each other. 


Hi Buffie, welcome back  I'm sorry you've been feeling deflated  it seems to be getting at all of us  I can understand you wanting a break. Of course we know you care  

I'm pleased to hear Meeko has picked up again  hopefully his appetite gets better and he starts to eat some more. Keeping everything crossed for when you next do his urine test. 


Roman had another firm poo around 10 this morning, I'm taking one day at a time now and just waiting for the next poo. I'm still giving a teaspoonful of the pumpkin but levelled out now rather than a heaped one. 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok xx xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Just on the train have a new hog coming home with me for a couple of weeks.. His name is bodger (not my choice so I may rename him) I will take some photos when I'm home and start a thread in general..

He is well uhm special 


Sorry to hear about meeko, it does go in cycles doesn't it! 

Roman well done on the solid poo, must be so nice for him to have a normal solid poo! Now he just needs to keep having them!!

Slyv, you hit it on the head when you say see him as other do, some times it's very easy to obsess over every single detail in their lives, that's when we need to take a step back!!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Just on the train have a new hog coming home with me for a couple of weeks.. His name is bodger (not my choice so I may rename him) I will take some photos when I'm home and start a thread in general..
> 
> He is well uhm special
> 
> Sorry to hear about meeko, it does go in cycles doesn't it!
> 
> Roman well done on the solid poo, must be so nice for him to have a normal solid poo! Now he just needs to keep having them!!
> 
> Slyv, you hit it on the head when you say see him as other do, some times it's very easy to obsess over every single detail in their lives, that's when we need to take a step back!!


Roman says, 'Fanks Nicola' let's keep our fingers crossed it continues. How long shall I carry on with the pumpkin?

Oooo another Hoglet  Riley will be happy   hopefully Bodger (you need to change his name ) doesn't think Riley's ear looks as tasty to eat 

Will look out for the thread


----------



## nicolaa123

Thread is there!

I would keep going with the pumpkin for a good few months before gradually decreasing as whilst it's helping him, it gives his stomach a rest from the constant diarreoh.. Maybe after a few weeks try just half a teaspoon, but keep it going!!

Sorry Sylv, Riley is on meds for life the weekly cholrambucil, vet and I both agreed that we can't take the risk of him having another major flare up and the cholermabucil not working again..


----------



## Forester

Its *so *good to see you back buffie. I'm sad that you've been feeling down but understand completely. No one could ever accuse you of not caring.

I'm glad that Meeko's appetite seems to be improving. It sounds as though you are going in the right direction. The increased wet food just has to help his urine.

Nicola, Thanks for reminding me about Riley's chlorambucil ( head like a sieve )I wonder whether its feasible to add any other medication for the times when Riley needs that little bit extra .

By the way, you are naughty, ( but nice ) mentioning your new " lodger". I came on to check this thread and I've just been side tracked to visit General. Nevertheless I enjoyed my visit.

Sarah, its great news about Roman's improving poo.  Fingers crossed that he's turned a corner and the only way from now will be up.

I'm trying to be more positive and enjoy Dylan as he is. Worrying and getting down is not going to achieve anything. He's currently lying next to me on the sofa, gazing up at me when I look down. He's not bothered about his vomiting so I must try not to be . I will do everything in my power to make him better but me being stressed about it is not going to help him . I must try to be more relaxed about the situation.

Sending positive vibes to all masters, mistresses and slaves.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Its *so *good to see you back buffie. I'm sad that you've been feeling down but understand completely. No one could ever accuse you of not caring.
> 
> I'm glad that Meeko's appetite seems to be improving. It sounds as though you are going in the right direction. The increased wet food just has to help his urine.
> 
> Nicola, Thanks for reminding me about Riley's chlorambucil ( head like a sieve )I wonder whether its feasible to add any other medication for the times when Riley needs that little bit extra .
> 
> By the way, you are naughty, ( but nice ) mentioning your new " lodger". I came on to check this thread and I've just been side tracked to visit General. Nevertheless I enjoyed my visit.
> 
> Sarah, its great news about Roman's improving poo.  Fingers crossed that he's turned a corner and the only way from now will be up.
> 
> I'm trying to be more positive and enjoy Dylan as he is. Worrying and getting down is not going to achieve anything. He's currently lying next to me on the sofa, gazing up at me when I look down. He's not bothered about his vomiting so I must try not to be . I will do everything in my power to make him better but me being stressed about it is not going to help him . I must try to be more relaxed about the situation.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to all masters, mistresses and slaves.


Good to hear..seriously enjoy every "ok" minute you get!!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Thread is there!
> 
> I would keep going with the pumpkin for a good few months before gradually decreasing as whilst it's helping him, it gives his stomach a rest from the constant diarreoh.. Maybe after a few weeks try just half a teaspoon, but keep it going!!
> 
> Sorry Sylv, Riley is on meds for life the weekly cholrambucil, vet and I both agreed that we can't take the risk of him having another major flare up and the cholermabucil not working again..


Thanks Nicola  he seems to like the pumpkin, was licking from the plate earlier before I mixed in the skippy  I went to waitrose earlier to stock up but they were out of stock, so bought a small one, they're just a pain to cut up  I've ordered a load of tins from Amazon.

Yes, in the words of Yazz, the only way is up!


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone.

Sorry not been on for a,few days. 
Glad to hear roman is firm. Forrester i wish we could magic all the badness away. It is so hard and I didn't want to consider the future or could see past that days poo all over the stairs floor n bedding. I know i am lucky blue has appeared to have had a miracle. We have days when she now vomits...usually after breakfast but 4 months ago i couldn't see her being 'well'. My stress came from my son not understanding her illness. I can cope with the nasty bit no prob. 

Please don't beat yourself up. I tried every food and still don't know what happened to get us on track. Sometimes you need a break to just enjoy the cat who just happens to poo n vom. The devotion you have to an ib cat is huge as you would do anything to get them right . 

Everyone lots of love and enjoy these contradictory pussums x


----------



## koekemakranka

Hi all, just an update on Grily. Not going well I am afraid. AShe stopped eating again 2 weeks ago and I took her to a feline specialist vet (he specialises in cheetah, lol!) where she was hosputalised on a drip for another 4 days  They were not sure about the previous diagnosis of hepatic lipidosis and so they sent me off to the specilalist-specialist in Johannesburg. He said it is not hepatic lipidosis but most likely cholangiohepatitis. He also diagnosed a heart murmer (leaky valve on the left side of her heart) 
He did not recommend a liver biopsy due to the stress involved on her system. She is back home but her appetite is very poor. She has to take meds (SAM-E, Ursanol, and Milk Thistle). I can no longer get it down her throoat so have resorted to crushing the tablets, mixing it in a tiny bit of sticky cod liver oil and malt and smearing it on her paw to lick off.
Our relationship has broken down irrepairably because of all the drama and pilling. I don't really see an end in sight and the prognosis is "guarded". Frankly my heart is broken at this stage.


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all,

BC, pleased to hear Blue is doing better, hopefully the breakfast vomits reduce. 


koekemakranka, I'm sorry to hear about Girly  sounds like you've both had a tough few weeks  I've not heard of this, I will have to look it up. 

I can understand how you are feeling, sorry I don't have any advice but can offer you a big (((((hug))))) and keep my fingers and everything crossed Girly gets her appetite back and she'll be ok xx



Roman still has firm poo   and still only going once a day  

Spoke to Patricia today, gave her an update on how Roman's been. She wants to continue with the 10mg of Pred for another 2 weeks and also continue with the chlorambucil every other day. She advised I book Roman in for a blood test with my own vet to check his bone marrow as the chlorambucil can suppress the marrow. 

He's booked in for 10 o/c Thursday morning for his blood test, it's a fasting test so nothing to eat anything after 8pm the night before, he's going to love me, not!

Hope everyone else is doing ok


----------



## buffie

koekemakranka said:


> Hi all, just an update on Grily. Not going well I am afraid. AShe stopped eating again 2 weeks ago and I took her to a feline specialist vet (he specialises in cheetah, lol!) where she was hosputalised on a drip for another 4 days  They were not sure about the previous diagnosis of hepatic lipidosis and so they sent me off to the specilalist-specialist in Johannesburg. He said it is not hepatic lipidosis but most likely cholangiohepatitis. He also diagnosed a heart murmer (leaky valve on the left side of her heart)
> He did not recommend a liver biopsy due to the stress involved on her system. She is back home but her appetite is very poor. She has to take meds (SAM-E, Ursanol, and Milk Thistle). I can no longer get it down her throoat so have resorted to crushing the tablets, mixing it in a tiny bit of sticky cod liver oil and malt and smearing it on her paw to lick off.
> Our relationship has broken down irrepairably because of all the drama and pilling. I don't really see an end in sight and the prognosis is "guarded". Frankly my heart is broken at this stage.


So sorry to read about Girly  I have very little knowledge of cholangiohepatitis other than it is often found alongside IBD and pancreatitis.
Sending positive healing vibes for girly,hoping that your vet can find a way to help her.


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> BC, pleased to hear Blue is doing better, hopefully the breakfast vomits reduce.
> 
> koekemakranka, I'm sorry to hear about Girly  sounds like you've both had a tough few weeks  I've not heard of this, I will have to look it up.
> 
> I can understand how you are feeling, sorry I don't have any advice but can offer you a big (((((hug))))) and keep my fingers and everything crossed Girly gets her appetite back and she'll be ok xx
> 
> Roman still has firm poo   and still only going once a day
> 
> Spoke to Patricia today, gave her an update on how Roman's been. She wants to continue with the 10mg of Pred for another 2 weeks and also continue with the chlorambucil every other day. She advised I book Roman in for a blood test with my own vet to check his bone marrow as the chlorambucil can suppress the marrow.
> 
> He's booked in for 10 o/c Thursday morning for his blood test, it's a fasting test so nothing to eat anything after 8pm the night before, he's going to love me, not!
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok


Well done Roman ,keep up the good work :thumbsup:
Hope the blood test is okay and that Roman doesnt make you pay to dearly for starving him  

Just did a urine test on HRH and there is no blood in it and the spec grav is back to where it was,so paws crossed the wet diet and zylkene are doing their job.
Only trouble is do I risk tailing off the zylkene or keeping him on it for a week or 2 yet,
He doesnt strike me as a stressed cat but they are so clever about hiding things.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Well done Roman ,keep up the good work :thumbsup:
> Hope the blood test is okay and that Roman doesnt make you pay to dearly for starving him
> 
> Just did a urine test on HRH and there is no blood in it and the spec grav is back to where it was,so paws crossed the wet diet and zylkene are doing their job.
> Only trouble is do I risk tailing off the zylkene or keeping him on it for a week or 2 yet,
> He doesnt strike me as a stressed cat but they are so clever about hiding things.


Thanks Buffie 

So pleased about the urine results, well done Meeko :thumbup: is he eating better now?

Not sure what to advise about the Zylkene, it won't harm to keep him on it for a bit longer. I agree with you about them being so clever and hiding things, Roman isn't really a stressed cat but my OH's brother was here all day Sunday and stayed over, Frank and Seb don't like him and Roman was a bit on edge and weary, so I think he was picking up on their vibes, one minute he'd be fine the next running away, he's usually fine with visitors.


----------



## Atks1971

Hi- this is the first forum I have ever used, just need other pet owners advice?

My 16 year old Maine Coon type moggy Ed has recently been diagnosed with Hyperthyroidism and is now on medication for this condition. He had suffered with awful vomiting and Diarrhoea for about 2 months before he was diagnosed with our vet saying this was a side effect of the condition. 

However, since being on his medication, these sypotoms have become worse and he has lost so much weight it is frightening. The vets say there may be something more serious at work (although blood tests and stool samples have shown nothing) but we don't want to put him through more rigorous tests as he is just so weak. His appetite is ok, but he will beg for food and then when this is given to him, he will have one bite and then he's had enough. An hour later he will then be sick and its undigested food.

I saw your tread while searching on the web and IBD does sounds like what he may be suffering from now. I am going to contact my vet to see if they think Steroids may help to keep him happy and pain free for the unforeseeable future (I do realise that I may not have very long left to enjoy his company) - just wanted to get any advice from anyone who may have been through the same thing??


----------



## Forester

Thanks for the support and encouragement bluecordelia. It means a lot.  
Its great to know about Blue's turnaround, obviously testament to your approach to this horrible disease. I'm realising that I need to focus Dylan , as a cat, and not on his digestive problems.

koekemakrana. I'm so sorry to hear that Girly is so poorly . I have thought about you both many, many times and wondered how things were going. ) I understand how heart breaking it is for you struggling to medicate her and to encourage her to eat. I've endured a similar situation and wish that I could take your pain away. Sending ((( Hugs ))) to you and healing vibes to Girly. 

buffie, That's fantastic news that Meeko's urine is back to normal  In your position I would probably continue with the Zylkene for a while rather that risking him relapsing. Hopefully his appetite for the wet food will continue to improve as he feels better.

Sarah , Well done Roman  Keep up the solid poo. He's going to be really appreciative of that skippy after his blood test on Thursday. Fingers crossed that the bloods will be fine.

Nicola, Sending "firming" vibes for Riley, (and hugs for you )as always. I hope that he is enjoying the company of the little hog. I must go into general to see what you have called him. I'm sure that your dedicated care will be paying dividends with the little prickly chap.

LDK1, sending positive vibes for you and Rosie. I hope that you are making progress and that Rosie is feeling better.

Dylan is o k again today . The alternating pred dose seems to be doing the job so far. No dire rear and no vomiting other than the 2 with the feeder which I don't think would have happened if he'd been eating from his usual dishes.

Sending love to all.


----------



## buffie

Thanks both of you,looks like we are all in agreement re the zylkene  
I was thinking the same but thought I would ask for your thoughts on it before saying anything.
Was thinking of keeping him on it for another week and then either halving the dose or giving him a full 75mg capsule every second day for at least a week after that,what do you think ?

He isn't totally settled back on to his wet food but is definitely better than he was.

Good news on Dylans lack of direrear /vomiting paws crossed it continues.


----------



## nicolaa123

bluecordelia said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Sorry not been on for a,few days.
> Glad to hear roman is firm. Forrester i wish we could magic all the badness away. It is so hard and I didn't want to consider the future or could see past that days poo all over the stairs floor n bedding. I know i am lucky blue has appeared to have had a miracle. We have days when she now vomits...usually after breakfast but 4 months ago i couldn't see her being 'well'. My stress came from my son not understanding her illness. I can cope with the nasty bit no prob.
> 
> Please don't beat yourself up. I tried every food and still don't know what happened to get us on track. Sometimes you need a break to just enjoy the cat who just happens to poo n vom. The devotion you have to an ib cat is huge as you would do anything to get them right .
> 
> Everyone lots of love and enjoy these contradictory pussums x


Yup devotion indeed!



koekemakranka said:


> Hi all, just an update on Grily. Not going well I am afraid. AShe stopped eating again 2 weeks ago and I took her to a feline specialist vet (he specialises in cheetah, lol!) where she was hosputalised on a drip for another 4 days  They were not sure about the previous diagnosis of hepatic lipidosis and so they sent me off to the specilalist-specialist in Johannesburg. He said it is not hepatic lipidosis but most likely cholangiohepatitis. He also diagnosed a heart murmer (leaky valve on the left side of her heart)
> He did not recommend a liver biopsy due to the stress involved on her system. She is back home but her appetite is very poor. She has to take meds (SAM-E, Ursanol, and Milk Thistle). I can no longer get it down her throoat so have resorted to crushing the tablets, mixing it in a tiny bit of sticky cod liver oil and malt and smearing it on her paw to lick off.
> Our relationship has broken down irrepairably because of all the drama and pilling. I don't really see an end in sight and the prognosis is "guarded". Frankly my heart is broken at this stage.


Riley had the same condition and went on a barrage of meds! Luckily for me he is ok to pull, anyone else a nightmare! The liver is amazing and can fix itself, I did have to stop Riley's pills as was giving him diarreah and it did take time, but he did get there and now levels back with in a normal range, bloods to be checked in December but I think he is ok..



sarahecp said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> BC, pleased to hear Blue is doing better, hopefully the breakfast vomits reduce.
> 
> koekemakranka, I'm sorry to hear about Girly  sounds like you've both had a tough few weeks  I've not heard of this, I will have to look it up.
> 
> I can understand how you are feeling, sorry I don't have any advice but can offer you a big (((((hug))))) and keep my fingers and everything crossed Girly gets her appetite back and she'll be ok xx
> 
> Roman still has firm poo   and still only going once a day
> 
> Spoke to Patricia today, gave her an update on how Roman's been. She wants to continue with the 10mg of Pred for another 2 weeks and also continue with the chlorambucil every other day. She advised I book Roman in for a blood test with my own vet to check his bone marrow as the chlorambucil can suppress the marrow.
> 
> He's booked in for 10 o/c Thursday morning for his blood test, it's a fasting test so nothing to eat anything after 8pm the night before, he's going to love me, not!
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok


Great news about the firm poo. It would be so interesting to see if any single change brought about the change in his poo, I'm thinking is would have been a combination of them 



buffie said:


> Well done Roman ,keep up the good work :thumbsup:
> Hope the blood test is okay and that Roman doesnt make you pay to dearly for starving him
> 
> Just did a urine test on HRH and there is no blood in it and the spec grav is back to where it was,so paws crossed the wet diet and zylkene are doing their job.
> Only trouble is do I risk tailing off the zylkene or keeping him on it for a week or 2 yet,
> He doesnt strike me as a stressed cat but they are so clever about hiding things.


Keep him on it I vote!!



Atks1971 said:


> Hi- this is the first forum I have ever used, just need other pet owners advice?
> 
> My 16 year old Maine Coon type moggy Ed has recently been diagnosed with Hyperthyroidism and is now on medication for this condition. He had suffered with awful vomiting and Diarrhoea for about 2 months before he was diagnosed with our vet saying this was a side effect of the condition.
> 
> However, since being on his medication, these sypotoms have become worse and he has lost so much weight it is frightening. The vets say there may be something more serious at work (although blood tests and stool samples have shown nothing) but we don't want to put him through more rigorous tests as he is just so weak. His appetite is ok, but he will beg for food and then when this is given to him, he will have one bite and then he's had enough. An hour later he will then be sick and its undigested food.
> 
> I saw your tread while searching on the web and IBD does sounds like what he may be suffering from now. I am going to contact my vet to see if they think Steroids may help to keep him happy and pain free for the unforeseeable future (I do realise that I may not have very long left to enjoy his company) - just wanted to get any advice from anyone who may have been through the same thing??


Hi and sorry to hear about ed..as he is very poorly, maybe it's worth asking your vet about any pain relief that would make him comfortable, steroids could increase his hunger and make him more inclined to eat, but that could cause more of an issue if he then still vomits the food, but definitely worth asking your vet about it.

Have you tried just plain boild chicken or fish? Much more gentle on his system.



Forester said:


> Thanks for the support and encouragement bluecordelia. It means a lot.
> Its great to know about Blue's turnaround, obviously testament to your approach to this horrible disease. I'm realising that I need to focus Dylan , as a cat, and not on his digestive problems.
> 
> koekemakrana. I'm so sorry to hear that Girly is so poorly . I have thought about you both many, many times and wondered how things were going. ) I understand how heart breaking it is for you struggling to medicate her and to encourage her to eat. I've endured a similar situation and wish that I could take your pain away. Sending ((( Hugs ))) to you and healing vibes to Girly.
> 
> buffie, That's fantastic news that Meeko's urine is back to normal  In your position I would probably continue with the Zylkene for a while rather that risking him relapsing. Hopefully his appetite for the wet food will continue to improve as he feels better.
> 
> Sarah , Well done Roman  Keep up the solid poo. He's going to be really appreciative of that skippy after his blood test on Thursday. Fingers crossed that the bloods will be fine.
> 
> Nicola, Sending "firming" vibes for Riley, (and hugs for you )as always. I hope that he is enjoying the company of the little hog. I must go into general to see what you have called him. I'm sure that your dedicated care will be paying dividends with the little prickly chap.
> 
> LDK1, sending positive vibes for you and Rosie. I hope that you are making progress and that Rosie is feeling better.
> 
> Dylan is o k again today . The alternating pred dose seems to be doing the job so far. No dire rear and no vomiting other than the 2 with the feeder which I don't think would have happened if he'd been eating from his usual dishes.
> 
> Sending love to all.


We (well riley) is firm  hog is called Aragon! He is very much a leave me alone hog (foxy being hand reared a different bottle of hog) so he eats and sleeps, which is great as he has already out on 40g and his bones are less sticking out . Riley has tried to make friends but got the brush off!!


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Thanks both of you,looks like we are all in agreement re the zylkene
> I was thinking the same but thought I would ask for your thoughts on it before saying anything.
> Was thinking of keeping him on it for another week and then either halving the dose or giving him a full 75mg capsule every second day for at least a week after that,what do you think ?
> 
> He isn't totally settled back on to his wet food but is definitely better than he was.
> 
> Good news on Dylans lack of direrear /vomiting paws crossed it continues.


Why not leave him on the full dose for a week or two and then reduce very gradually so that you can monitor the effect of the reduction.?

You could give for 2 days out of 3 for a while, reducing to every other day and then to 1 day in 3. That way he would initially only have ,for example, 1 day in 3 when he would not have a full dose.

Its probably too early to judge but I am hopeful that alternating Dylan's pred. dosage is giving us the best of both worlds so far. If you tried alternating doses with Meeko you would have the benefits of a full dose on some days. If you reduce to half a dose each day then he wouldn't get that benefit. I hope that my idea makes sense to you.

Thanks for the good wishes for Dylan


----------



## Ccat2005

Hi guys,

Firstly just to apologise for not posting in years (my average post rate is 0.03 per day  ) but I'm going through some kitty teeth issues so thought I'd share in case it helps -

Short story - I now have 2 persian cats, Chicken (4) and Rex (1) and our next mission is dental health, as Chicken has some dodgy plaque build up which has been worrying us. We found the following tooth pastes and brushes and our vet has said these are good:

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c...ogic-oral-hygiene-gel-pet-toothpaste-70g-p-49

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c...veterinary-toothpaste-for-cats-and-dogs-p-763

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c...ell-puppy-and-kitten-finger-toothbrush-p-8768

Vet also recommended to try Denta Dentagen toothpaste.

Not endorsing these at all as haven't tried them but we are going to purchase some soon... That said, may first decide to book Chicken for dental cleaning as per the article  will have to read more into it first though.

Thanks for the helpful sticky!!


----------



## buffie

Atks1971 said:


> Hi- this is the first forum I have ever used, just need other pet owners advice?
> 
> My 16 year old Maine Coon type moggy Ed has recently been diagnosed with Hyperthyroidism and is now on medication for this condition. He had suffered with awful vomiting and Diarrhoea for about 2 months before he was diagnosed with our vet saying this was a side effect of the condition.
> 
> However, since being on his medication, these sypotoms have become worse and he has lost so much weight it is frightening. The vets say there may be something more serious at work (although blood tests and stool samples have shown nothing) but we don't want to put him through more rigorous tests as he is just so weak. His appetite is ok, but he will beg for food and then when this is given to him, he will have one bite and then he's had enough. An hour later he will then be sick and its undigested food.
> 
> I saw your tread while searching on the web and IBD does sounds like what he may be suffering from now. I am going to contact my vet to see if they think Steroids may help to keep him happy and pain free for the unforeseeable future (I do realise that I may not have very long left to enjoy his company) - just wanted to get any advice from anyone who may have been through the same thing??


Sorry to read about Ed's illness ,my only experience with HT in cats was a few years ago with an elderly cat I had who also had diabetes .
She didn't really show any obvious signs other than increased appetite/drinking and weight loss all which could have been connected to her diabetes.She had a T4 blood test done which showed her levels to be very high so she was started on medication (felimazole)
It did take a few weeks to get her stable ,she needed a few blood tests and doseage changes of her tablets before her condition stabilised.
Has Ed had bloods taken again since starting on the medication and what medication is he on.
It may be an idea to start a new thread,describing just what has been going on ,that way other members who have more understanding of HT can try to help.

Good luck ,hope Ed is soon feeling a bit better,please let us know how you get on.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Why not leave him on the full dose for a week or two and then reduce very gradually so that you can monitor the effect of the reduction.?
> 
> You could give for 2 days out of 3 for a while, reducing to every other day and then to 1 day in 3. That way he would initially only have ,for example, 1 day in 3 when he would not have a full dose.
> 
> Its probably too early to judge but I am hopeful that alternating Dylan's pred. dosage is giving us the best of both worlds so far. If you tried alternating doses with Meeko you would have the benefits of a full dose on some days. If you reduce to half a dose each day then he wouldn't get that benefit. I hope that my idea makes sense to you.
> 
> Thanks for the good wishes for Dylan


Sounds like a plan,it is so difficult knowing just how best to reduce meds.I suppose the good thing about zylkene is that it isn't a drug as such so can be stopped/started without any real side effects.We have a pet rescue diffuser plugged in as well :arf: not the most pleasant thing in the world but if it helps we will suffer


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Yup devotion indeed!
> 
> Riley had the same condition and went on a barrage of meds! Luckily for me he is ok to pull, anyone else a nightmare! The liver is amazing and can fix itself, I did have to stop Riley's pills as was giving him diarreah and it did take time, but he did get there and now levels back with in a normal range, bloods to be checked in December but I think he is ok..
> 
> Great news about the firm poo. It would be so interesting to see if any single change brought about the change in his poo, I'm thinking is would have been a combination of them
> 
> *Keep him on it I vote*!!
> 
> Hi and sorry to hear about ed..as he is very poorly, maybe it's worth asking your vet about any pain relief that would make him comfortable, steroids could increase his hunger and make him more inclined to eat, but that could cause more of an issue if he then still vomits the food, but definitely worth asking your vet about it.
> 
> Have you tried just plain boild chicken or fish? Much more gentle on his system.
> 
> We (well riley) is firm  hog is called Aragon! He is very much a leave me alone hog (foxy being hand reared a different bottle of hog) so he eats and sleeps, which is great as he has already out on 40g and his bones are less sticking out . Riley has tried to make friends but got the brush off!!


Thanks Nicola,I'll keep him on it for a week or 2 but think I will try to reduce it after that,otherwise I will never know if it was a stress UTI or the lack of fluid when he stopped eating enough wet food and needed supplementing with a small amount of dry.
Aragorn sounds a better name for your new lodger :thumbsup: Great to read that he is eating well and putting on the weight.


----------



## Forester

Forester said:


> Nicola, Sending "firming" vibes for Riley, (and hugs for you )as always. I hope that he is enjoying the company of the little hog. I must go into general to see what you have called him. I'm sure that your dedicated care will be paying dividends with the little prickly chap.


Nicola, The " firming " vibes were for Riley , *not *for you. :lol: Though if you want some you're welcome. I was sending hugs to you ( though Riley, and Aragon are welcome to some if they like)


----------



## nicolaa123

Oooopppsss  oh and should be Aragorn (my silly spell checker) I will try and get some more photos of him, but right now I'm happy he is munching!! He loves Lily's kitchen food.. Such a nice food too (if only eh) 


Oh Sarah forgot to add, the bone marrow thing is quite rare so please don't sorry, my vet's aren't concerned at all with that


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks Nicola for easing my mind  did you have to starve Riley before his blood test? 

Aragorn (my spell check did the same as yours  just corrected it) is a nice name  pleased he's doing well and putting the weight on  you'll need to bring Foxy back home for Riley


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Oooopppsss  *oh and should be Aragorn (my silly spell checker)* I will try and get some more photos of him, but right now I'm happy he is munching!! He loves Lily's kitchen food.. Such a nice food too (if only eh)
> 
> Oh Sarah forgot to add, the bone marrow thing is quite rare so please don't sorry, my vet's aren't concerned at all with that


Had to google that name,not a Lord of the Rings fan


----------



## Forester

Atks1971 said:


> Hi- this is the first forum I have ever used, just need other pet owners advice?
> 
> My 16 year old Maine Coon type moggy Ed has recently been diagnosed with Hyperthyroidism and is now on medication for this condition. He had suffered with awful vomiting and Diarrhoea for about 2 months before he was diagnosed with our vet saying this was a side effect of the condition.
> 
> However, since being on his medication, these sypotoms have become worse and he has lost so much weight it is frightening. The vets say there may be something more serious at work (although blood tests and stool samples have shown nothing) but we don't want to put him through more rigorous tests as he is just so weak. His appetite is ok, but he will beg for food and then when this is given to him, he will have one bite and then he's had enough. An hour later he will then be sick and its undigested food.
> 
> I saw your tread while searching on the web and IBD does sounds like what he may be suffering from now. I am going to contact my vet to see if they think Steroids may help to keep him happy and pain free for the unforeseeable future (I do realise that I may not have very long left to enjoy his company) - just wanted to get any advice from anyone who may have been through the same thing??


Atks1971, I'm so sorry, I did not mean to ignore your post. You posted whilst I was typing my post and as I have no experience of hyperthyroidism at all I could not think of any useful advice to offer. 
I do , desperately hope that you can find a way to ease Ed's symptoms. It is heartbreaking to see a much loved old friend suffering.

Sending hugs to you and positive vibes for Ed.


----------



## sarahecp

Atks1971 said:


> Hi- this is the first forum I have ever used, just need other pet owners advice?
> 
> My 16 year old Maine Coon type moggy Ed has recently been diagnosed with Hyperthyroidism and is now on medication for this condition. He had suffered with awful vomiting and Diarrhoea for about 2 months before he was diagnosed with our vet saying this was a side effect of the condition.
> 
> However, since being on his medication, these sypotoms have become worse and he has lost so much weight it is frightening. The vets say there may be something more serious at work (although blood tests and stool samples have shown nothing) but we don't want to put him through more rigorous tests as he is just so weak. His appetite is ok, but he will beg for food and then when this is given to him, he will have one bite and then he's had enough. An hour later he will then be sick and its undigested food.
> 
> I saw your tread while searching on the web and IBD does sounds like what he may be suffering from now. I am going to contact my vet to see if they think Steroids may help to keep him happy and pain free for the unforeseeable future (I do realise that I may not have very long left to enjoy his company) - just wanted to get any advice from anyone who may have been through the same thing??


Hi Atks and welcome to the forum  I too apologise for missing your post 

I'm so sorry to hear about your Ed  I don't have any experience or advice I'm afraid on Hyperthyroidism. It could be an idea for you to pop a thread up in the Health section on here, hopefully they'll will be some more members with more experience that could advise you.

Sending best wishes to you and Ed xx


----------



## Forester

Evening all. I hope that this post finds everyone, feline and human " o k " 

Whoops , I forgot to include the thread hedgehog. I hope that Aragorn is o k too )

How did Roman get on at the vets for his blood test today, Sarah? I'm sure that he will have forgiven you for starving him by now. Fingers crossed that he', as well as everyone else ,is continuing with the " firm poo"

It would be great if no one has any vomiting to report and all have good appetites.

Dylan is o k. I weighed him today as I was wondering how much weight he's put on since starting the pred. He's now 5.4kg  He went down to 4.8kg at the end of July, usually about 5.1 or 5.2kg. He's not playing half as much as he was before the pred, just eating, sleeping and having cuddles. Should I reduce his rabbit a little?. What does anyone think?. He's currently having 120g rabbit ( boiled) plus 100g wet sensitivity control.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Hello all 

I had an eventful morning - got up this morning to an overnight firm poo, the first one overnight for over a week, none since. 

Roman was starved from 8pm last night (fasting blood test) last meal just before 8. All 3 went without breakfast this morning, I thought it only fair, not sure they saw it that way. Got back from work about 9:30 to 3 screaming starving cats and a big fat frog (Seb ) sitting in the dining room. Roman was put in carrier, Frank and Seb fed, Mr Frog given to neighbour to put in pond, then off to the vets we went. Bloods were done, will call me when results are back. Fed Roman, gave Pred and back to work.

I was expecting to come home to another frog to greet me, there wasn't one   

Hope everyone is doing ok xx


----------



## babsc

I posted last week about my 17 yr old cat Flash who had bad teeth, and was also on felimazole. The vet gave him a antibiotic and steroid jab which made him able to eat a bit again - now after a week the antibiotic and steroid jab have gone from his system, and he is looking unhappy again. He is still eating a bit, but doesn't want to be cuddled/stroked, and doesn't purr, or want to be handled.

I rang vet to report, and said we want to go ahead with the operation on his teeth as previously .

The vet said first he wants to try metacalm given every day with food. If that's a problem, then wants to try a steroid jab that would last a month, said it can have side effects. As a last resort will try the op. I was surprised, as previously thought he felt this was a good option, and may resolve things, and were willing to take risk as his quality of life not good..

I really queried with him, but he was adamant this is best way to go. May be he thinks Flash won't last long and this will give him a bit more pain free short term life? Wish heds just said that, we can take it. I also know there are problems with metacalm .

Not sure what to do now. Have been looking to see if I can find specialist dental vet in area but no luck.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Evening all. I hope that this post finds everyone, feline and human " o k "
> 
> Whoops , I forgot to include the thread hedgehog. I hope that Aragorn is o k too )
> 
> How did Roman get on at the vets for his blood test today, Sarah? I'm sure that he will have forgiven you for starving him by now. Fingers crossed that he', as well as everyone else ,is continuing with the " firm poo"
> 
> It would be great if no one has any vomiting to report and all have good appetites.
> 
> Dylan is o k. I weighed him today as I was wondering how much weight he's put on since starting the pred. He's now 5.4kg  He went down to 4.8kg at the end of July, usually about 5.1 or 5.2kg. He's not playing half as much as he was before the pred, just eating, sleeping and having cuddles. Should I reduce his rabbit a little?. What does anyone think?. He's currently having 120g rabbit ( boiled) plus 100g wet sensitivity control.
> 
> love to all


Hi Sylv,

We must have been posting at the same time 

Pleased to hear Dylan is ok  and sounds like he's doing really well  is he a big cat or average size? What's his condition like? Does he look over weight? if he and you are happy with the amount he is eating then I would continue with what you are doing and then see how things go when you next weigh him.

I forgot about our little Hoglet friend  sorry Niicola  I hope Aragorn is continuing to do well  and he's starting to make friends with Riley


----------



## moggie14

Metacam is a very effective painkiller and anti inflammatory. However the down side is that it can affect the kidneys quite seriously.
Has Flash had very recent bloodwork done? I wouldn't let a vet prescribe it without this.
It's a very difficult balance between quality of life and the dangers of Metacam for older cats.
If Flash's kidneys are fine right now then he may be OK with Metacam but the longer it's given the more dangerous it is. 
If he ultimately needs the teeth out anyway I'd discuss this again with the vet because no doubt he will be prescribed Metacam post op too :sad:


----------



## babsc

He last had bloods done 3 months ago and kidneys OK then, not great but OK for old cat. The vet is talking about this as a long term solution instead of an operation, as he feels it is best option. I said I'd been wanting to go for the op, but he felt this is better.

I'm so confused, wondering whether to get a 2nd opinion from another vets. I feel it is quite a risk having metacalm long term at his age. I asked the vet if he thought operation would sort the problem, he can't be sure, but has ruled out other causes for the problem not eating, wanting to, then backing away, also doesn't want us to stroke his face like we used to. Suggest to me painful face.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

babsc said:


> He last had bloods done 3 months ago and kidneys OK then, not great but OK for old cat. The vet is talking about this as a long term solution instead of an operation, as he feels it is best option. I said I'd been wanting to go for the op, but he felt this is better.
> 
> I'm so confused, wondering whether to get a 2nd opinion from another vets. I feel it is quite a risk having metacalm long term at his age. I asked the vet if he thought operation would sort the problem, he can't be sure, but has ruled out other causes for the problem not eating, wanting to, then backing away, also doesn't want us to stroke his face like we used to. Suggest to me painful face.


Do you have any figures on his kidneys? The sad fact about renal disease is that by the time you see changes on a blood screen, you've lost at least 75% of your total kidney function so it's never a great thing.

You could look into long-term buprenorphine instead. It is more expensive than Metacam but quite effective for oral pain and safer on the kidneys.


----------



## babsc

I don't have any figures re kidneys, but since yesterday he has deteriorated again. This morning he only ate 3 tiny bites of cat food, and drank some milk. I didn't want to risk giving him Metacam on an almost empty stomach. 

He is looking very unhappy and not wanting to interact, just sitting quietly on his own, his eyes look sad and he licks his lips and dribbles.

So I have yet another appointment this pm, to ask for the steroid injection that lasts 1 month, which was 2nd option vet suggested, if he wasn't eating. I can't let him go over weekend in pain. 

Does the steroid take away pain for 1 month? 

What are the side effects?

I would have thought an operation that sorted it once and for all would be better, but I'm really at a loss what to do for best. I would have him PTS if that is kindest, but feel the teeth problem could possibly be fixed, and might then make him feel a whole lot better, boy old boy.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Hi Sylv,
> 
> We must have been posting at the same time
> 
> Pleased to hear Dylan is ok  and sounds like he's doing really well  is he a big cat or average size? What's his condition like? Does he look over weight? if he and you are happy with the amount he is eating then I would continue with what you are doing and then see how things go when you next weigh him.
> 
> I forgot about our little Hoglet friend  sorry Niicola  I hope Aragorn is continuing to do well  and he's starting to make friends with Riley


I'm so sorry  I've been gazing at the forum thinking " no new posts" , forgetting that I haven't replied to this.

I would say that Dyl is an average sized moggie ( though he tells me that he has a very large and heavy brain  ). He looks " perfect" or perhaps slightly more padded than perfect, but only slightly more padded. His waist is still there but rapidly going west. My concern is that if 120g rabbit plus RCSC causes him to put on weight, should I be reducing a little so that I can find out what quantity causes him to maintain. I don't want him to continue to put on at the current rate. Do I want to maintain him at perfect ?, or do you think that I should allow him to carry a little extra in case he goes on hunger strike in the future?

He's not currently exercising much and I really do not want the steroids combined with inactivity to bring on diabetes.

I'm probably a little over-conscious about weight as I'm an ex anorexic *but* I firmly believe that more health problems are likely to be caused by obesity than by being underweight. Dylan is *definitely not *underweight.

Dyl is o k again today.

Are Roman's blood results back?

Hoping that everyone else is also " o k " today.

Love, and positive vibes to all.


----------



## moggie14

I hope you had a positive vet visit today. I've never had a cat on steroids so have no advice there, sorry x


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm so sorry  I've been gazing at the forum thinking " no new posts" , forgetting that I haven't replied to this.
> 
> I would say that Dyl is an average sized moggie ( though he tells me that he has a very large and heavy brain  ). He looks " perfect" or perhaps slightly more padded than perfect, but only slightly more padded. His waist is still there but rapidly going west. My concern is that if 120g rabbit plus RCSC causes him to put on weight, should I be reducing a little so that I can find out what quantity causes him to maintain. I don't want him to continue to put on at the current rate. Do I want to maintain him at perfect ?, or do you think that I should allow him to carry a little extra in case he goes on hunger strike in the future?
> 
> He's not currently exercising much and I really do not want the steroids combined with inactivity to bring on diabetes.
> 
> I'm probably a little over-conscious about weight as I'm an ex anorexic *but* I firmly believe that more health problems are likely to be caused by obesity than by being underweight. Dylan is *definitely not *underweight.
> 
> Dyl is o k again today.
> 
> Are Roman's blood results back?
> 
> Hoping that everyone else is also " o k " today.
> 
> Love, and positive vibes to all.


I've been looking for new posts too, usually they show in bold but they haven't been recently  PF is doing strange things, I was thinking it was my phone but the same on work pc.

I can understand your concern and know what you mean, if you feel better reducing then give it a go, you can always increase again 

Pleased Dylan is doing o k today 

Roman is o k again today  his poo pattern has changed and he went this morning before I left for work, no more since.

No results yet.

Hope everyone else is doing o k  xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Yay, it's letting me post! Still can't "like" so apologies for lack of likes 

Slyv, if you think Dylan is getting a bit too big, then yep I agree cut back a bit on the food and try and maintain the weight. I do the body condition score with riley, we are just off normal but that's ok he isn't loosing! Pleased to hear he is ok!

Pleased to hear Roman is still ok and hope others are ok too.



Only news I have is with Aragorn he is now 231g but there is a question with regards to his eyesight. On admission it was thought he is blind. Tonight I was checking him, one eye does have some reaction but the other none and you literally touch the eyeball,,,we will see..


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Yay, it's letting me post! Still can't "like" so apologies for lack of likes
> 
> Slyv, if you think Dylan is getting a bit too big, then yep I agree cut back a bit on the food and try and maintain the weight. I do the body condition score with riley, we are just off normal but that's ok he isn't loosing! Pleased to hear he is ok!
> 
> Pleased to hear Roman is still ok and hope others are ok too.
> 
> Only news I have is with Aragorn he is now 231g but there is a question with regards to his eyesight. On admission it was thought he is blind. Tonight I was checking him, one eye does have some reaction but the other none and you literally touch the eyeball,,,we will see..


Nicola, its great to see you back . Your presence is far more important than whether you can " like" us or not. .

I'm glad to hear that Riley is close to " normal" condition wise. Its good to know that he's maintaining. You're obviously doing a good job of getting sufficient nutrition into him.

Dylan is probably condition score 6 out of 9. I'm trying to cut just 10g rabbit from his allowance as I don't really want him to gain more however he looks at me appealingly and tries to tell me that he's absolutely starving.

He's still o k though.. I too hope that everyone else is o k with no vomiting, dire rear or hunger strikes.

I'm sorry to hear about poor little Aragorn's sight problems.. Will he be able to stay at the hospital indefinitely if he is unable to be released back into the wild?


----------



## sarahecp

Welcome back Nicola  Pleased all is o k  and pleased to hear Aragorn is putting the weight on  I'm sorry to hear about his  bless him. 


Sylv, pleased to hear Dylan is still doing o k  

Roman is still o k  he had an overnight poo and nothing since. I feel he's not eating enough, probably around 120-150g of the skippy but I'm not worrying because he's not asking for food, only in the mornings when I get woken at an unthinkable hour  and his weight is still the same. Both my own vet and Patricia says he has good condition, I will have to have a look at what he is. 

Hope everyone else is doing o k xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Thing with Riley is that he has to eat a lot to just keep his weight on..he us curently eating 400g of food last week and is no way putting icon any weight, but he goes in cycles so he could then change to 200g and so on..I just try to just go with the cycle he is in!

Aragorn would have to goto an enclosed garden if he is blind in both eyes so as much as a wild life as possible!


----------



## Forester

Sarah, Is Roman still having any of the dry food?

I presume that Seb's not catching anything outside and bringing it in to give to Roman. I mention this because in the past one of my cats who was a prolific mouser used to present my other cat ( who couldn't even catch a fly) with anything he'd caught but didn't fancy eating.

Its good to hear that Roman seems to have settled into a normal " poo" routine.


----------



## Diesse

Found the information on Metacam very interesting. However, will never use this drug again. I am now trying to fight for the life of my lovely little cat and I put it down to this drug. Ok, she might have had underlying problems but I am sure that this drug is going to shorten her life. She appeared to be limping from the shoulder some weeks ago. She went to the vet and had a blood count done on heart, liver and kidney and everything was fine. She was put on Metacam and within about 4 weeks noticed that her behaviour had changed. Unfortunately, didn't look at this closer until I noticed that she wasn't eating very well. To cut a long story short, she now has liver failure. The blood count showed nothing wrong with her liver until she was put on this drug. The vet has said that the drug could have caused this problem but that she must have had an underlying problem. Maybe so, but this does not help as she could have lived for a few more years. I am devastated. Have another cat with a bit of arthritis but she most certainly won't be going on this stuff.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Sarah, Is Roman still having any of the dry food?
> 
> I presume that Seb's not catching anything outside and bringing it in to give to Roman. I mention this because in the past one of my cats who was a prolific mouser used to present my other cat ( who couldn't even catch a fly) with anything he'd caught but didn't fancy eating.
> 
> Its good to hear that Roman seems to have settled into a normal " poo" routine.


He hadn't been until yesterday when he wouldn't eat his skippy, so I crushed a couple of dry bits and sprinkled it on top, he ate it then. I think he maybe getting a bit bored. I do have some rabbit that I ordered from VC but I don't want to introduce it just yet, just in case.

To my knowledge Seb only brings frogs in and the odd bird  that I've rescued, and there's never any evidence that he has, so don't think it's that.

He's gone from eating 6-8 100g pouches of Felix a day to eating sooo much less, I know with the Felix most of it was coming out the other end. It's so confusing


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> He hadn't been until yesterday when he wouldn't eat his skippy, so I crushed a couple of dry bits and sprinkled it on top, he ate it then. I think he maybe getting a bit bored. I do have some rabbit that I ordered from VC but I don't want to introduce it just yet, just in case.
> 
> To my knowledge Seb only brings frogs in and the odd bird  that I've rescued, and there's never any evidence that he has, so don't think it's that.
> 
> He's gone from eating 6-8 100g pouches of Felix a day to eating sooo much less, I know with the Felix most of it was coming out the other end. It's so confusing


Well the vc is much higher in protein than felix so he will of course need less to feel full plus as more of it is staying in him longer there isn't that constant hunger ..I would not be worried in the slightest..oh and I would also do a wee bit of tough love, ideally No dry at all! Maybe lessen the pumpin..also remember the pumpkin bulks and adds fibre which is filling too!

Don't be confused I would say perfectly normal


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Well the vc is much higher in protein than felix so he will of course need less to feel full plus as more of it is staying in him longer there isn't that constant hunger ..I would not be worried in the slightest..oh and I would also do a wee bit of tough love, ideally No dry at all! Maybe lessen the pumpin..also remember the pumpkin bulks and adds fibre which is filling too!
> 
> Don't be confused I would say perfectly normal


Thanks 

That would make sense then  and with the pumpkin too  ok, no more dry and I'll reduce the pumpkin a little bit too.


----------



## bluecordelia

I have blinked and its all go one. Glad everyone seems okayish. Roman keep it up. Seems there are a few Maine coons with bowel issues. I still swear bluey was weaned too early and on rubbish. 

Forrester loved your comment. Enjoy your cat x

I have tried to post photos but since changing phones I cant seem to. Blue looks big but a lot of fur. I will keep trying.

We need to change the sticky title to include hogs!

Everyone take care. We are wearing flourescent collars now due to dark nites and I hope the firework season doesn't upset any tums x


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> I have blinked and its all go one. Glad everyone seems okayish. Roman keep it up. Seems there are a few Maine coons with bowel issues. I still swear bluey was weaned too early and on rubbish.
> 
> Forrester loved your comment. Enjoy your cat x
> 
> I have tried to post photos but since changing phones I cant seem to. Blue looks big but a lot of fur. I will keep trying.
> 
> We need to change the sticky title to include hogs!
> 
> Everyone take care. We are wearing flourescent collars now due to dark nites and I hope the firework season doesn't upset any tums x


I've made the same observation about the number of MC's on this thread and on another IBD group which I've just joined. Do you know if this is something which is widely recognised?. Is there some genetic predisposition I wonder ?

I blame Dylan's problems on what he must have been eating as a stray but have also questioned whether the heavy worm burden he was carrying when rescued might be significant. I have read that IBD *can *be brought on by heavy parasite burdens.

Thank you.:blush2:

Oooh photo's would be lovely 

Sarah, Dylan only got up to eating about 120g VC kangaroo plus 100g RCSC. He was previously having 300g RCSC so 120g skippy replaced 200g RCSC. 120g skippy doesn't sound very much but it might be that Roman's not exercising as much on the pred and Chlorambucil than he was previously. Dylan is definitely less active since he started the pred.

Its starting to look as though we have found a pred dose which currently suits Dylan. Since alternating the 5mg and 2.5mg doses there hasn't been any dire rear and the only vomiting was when I used the slow feeder. I think that I'd like to have him symptom free for a month before I request a reduction in the pred. Oh, another positive ( I think ) is that Dylan has started to eat the jelly formed from cooking the rabbit . I'm hopeful that it will help his gut to heal.

Its amazing the difference a week can make. I'm feeling much more positive and thoroughly enjoying being slave to my little black panther.

Sending love and positive vibes to all IBD kitties and slaves.


----------



## sarahecp

Can't quote again 

Evening all 

I've heard of a few Coonies with IBD  from what research I've done nothing comes up that they are prone to it. I've talked about this to Roman's breeder and she has no experience of it with her own cats or been told by any of the owners of her kittens. Roman's Dad didn't have any history of it either, though he died when he was 4 yrs old  a couple of months after Roman was born, he became very ill suddenly and his breeder (not Roman's breeder) had to have him pts  he had liver cancer . 

Roman was absolutely fine until he was around 8 months old, I've read that fish can be the cause of IBD in cats (also asthma) all Roman ate was fish flavoured Felix, not sure there was any actual fish in it though. So fish being linked to asthma and IBD, Roman has both. 

Sylv, what IBD group have you joined? 

Roman isn't exercising as much as he was when he was going out and I'm not taking him out in the garden as often especially with the weather but I try to play as much as I can indoors with him, outside is better with the flying frenzy with more space to jump and run around. 

Pleased you've found the Pred dose that suits Dylan  glad he's eating the rabbit jelly (yuck). 

Sooo pleased you're feeling so much better now Sylv   xx


Roman wasn't as firm when he went this morning and he's just had a small runny poo, I'm thinking this could be the crushed dry I sprinkled on yesterday and I've not reduced the pumpkin yet, was going to start that Monday but now having second thoughts and will continue what I've been doing. 


Hope everyone else is doing o k  xx


----------



## LDK1

Hello all,

Just a quickie! Very nice to read some positive progress recently. :thumbup1:

Rosie hasn't vomited either lately, but I had to get her to the vets Wednesday as she just stopped eating half way through breakfast Tuesday morning and still wouldn't eat by the next day.

She had a high temp. and produced mucousy stools whilst at the vet. No idea what caused this sudden illness, but after a concoction of four different injections eek she's well on the mend now.  Which is more than I can say for myself as I've got a cold at the moment! <snivel snivel>. 

Best wishes all...


----------



## sarahecp

Oh no, poor Rosie  I'm so pleased to hear she's on the mend now   and glad she hasn't been vomiting  

They are a worry aren't they 

And poor you  hope you're feeling better soon xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi all
I found one reference to Maine coons and ib.....it was after trawling the internet for hours in desperation one night!

They are known for heart n hip issues but after reading around i got on my path of anxiety/stress. As a nurse i avoid the medics like the proverbial and look at the whole bio social pycho to see what's bugging. 

Blue was always loose but over Christmas last year got worse. I did feed her prawns and considered they might have started her off. She tested positive for clostridium perfingums but not a huge amount. One of her half brothers (same dad) has had dire rear but that's all i know. 

I have heard of another mc recently local to me whose bowel was short...he has 2lots of surgery but had awful adhesions which i was told had affected his kidneys. This was a young boy who you would expect to be in good health. Coupled with reading about cats bowels increasing in length due to a dry diet there appears to be no one answer. 

I keep pumping her with water in her food. Appetite is up...they git through a pack of boiled chicken thigh with Fellini in one sitting! 

Hope everyone ok x


----------



## Forester

PF won't let me quote either today. 

Sarah, I joined the Yahoo IBD group. I haven't had time to look at it much yet but will obviously report back on anything which I find that might be useful to anyone on here. Being digitally challenged I'm finding it a little confusing to navigate at present. 

It sounds as though Roman's minor setback could well be down to the small amount of dry food. Hopefully he will soon be back to producing only firm poo.

LDK1. I'm so pleased that you're making progress with Rosie.  What changes have you made with her? Sorry, if you've already said what you were going to do. I have a head like a sieve. 

Poor Rosie, it sounds as though she may have had a nasty bug. I'm glad that she's getting better now. Sorry to hear that you are under the weather yourself LDK1. , hope that you feel better soon.

bluecordelia, the approach that you've taken with Blue certainly seems to have worked .  Well done, you. My vet has taken an exclusively medical approach to Dyl's vomiting but then that's what I went to her for. I am , however convinced that the answers, for him ,are not entirely medical.

love to all IBD kitties and slaves.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1. I'm so pleased that you're making progress with Rosie.  What changes have you made with her? Sorry, if you've already said what you were going to do. *I have a head like a sieve.*


That makes two of us then! 

Rosie's still on the dry z/d and being fed very small meals 5 to 7 times a day, with a bit of hairball paste in the morning and a couple of blobs of enzyme toothpaste at night. No medication.

I'm sure she would love some of Watson's wet food (and is really missing her raw chicken scraps), but I'm not going to change anything and risk going backwards - the aim being no vomiting for 3 months then start introducing a novel/single source wet food. I'm a little worried about her getting fed up with the z/d before then, but we'll see what happens.


----------



## sarahecp

Well that makes 3 of us   

Sylv, I thought it might be one of the Yahoo groups, I joined the feline asthma one and can't get my head around all the emails, I get bombarded and I get in a tizz   you'd never have thought I worked in IT  


LDK1, sounds like everything you're doing is agreeing with Rosie  fingers crossed she continues to be vomit free 

Roman seems to be getting bored of the kangaroo, but I keeping thinking tough love  I'm sure he'd love a nice piece of cod  


We've had no poo so far today only 3 wee's  I'm sure it must have been the dry, aahh! just had a thought, we had fireworks going off on Saturday evening, again he wasn't bothered, but you never know  

Hope everyone else is doing o k  xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Well that makes 3 of us
> 
> Sylv, I thought it might be one of the Yahoo groups, I joined the feline asthma one and can't get my head around all the emails, I get bombarded and I get in a tizz   you'd never have thought I worked in IT


Its letting me quote now :thumbsup:

I joined the Kidney Failure / Assisted feeding ones when Eric was diagnosed with kidney disease. I didn't go back in after joining as he declined extremely quickly . When he was pts I " forgot" about the groups but discovered when I joined this IBD one that I had 2 and a half years worth of messages :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:. I've deleted most of it but it was a bit of a shock.

I need to go out now but will reply to latest posts tomorrow.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Its letting me quote now :thumbsup:
> 
> I joined the Kidney Failure / Assisted feeding ones when Eric was diagnosed with kidney disease. I didn't go back in after joining as he declined extremely quickly . When he was pts I " forgot" about the groups but discovered when I joined this IBD one that I had 2 and a half years worth of messages :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:. I've deleted most of it but it was a bit of a shock.
> 
> I need to go out now but will reply to latest posts tomorrow.


Me too  

I can get up to 50 a day  so can just imagine how many messages you had  

Catch up tomorrow xx


----------



## bluecordelia

LDK1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Just a quickie! Very nice to read some positive progress recently. :thumbup1:
> 
> Rosie hasn't vomited either lately, but I had to get her to the vets Wednesday as she just stopped eating half way through breakfast Tuesday morning and still wouldn't eat by the next day.
> 
> She had a high temp. and produced mucousy stools whilst at the vet. No idea what caused this sudden illness, but after a concoction of four different injections eek she's well on the mend now.  Which is more than I can say for myself as I've got a cold at the moment! <snivel snivel>.
> 
> Best wishes all...


Me too with the cold n awful ears. Get well both of you x


----------



## nicolaa123

I had to un - join the yahoo group as I got confused 

Sarah as much as we love them..boredom is a human emotion and whilst we may think that piece of cod is tempting for them..we have to think what's best for them 

When you have done at least 8 weeks on skippy then you can introduce over foods and note which ones are good foods and ones that are not..when you get them big lovely eyes pleading for something else..leave the room quick!!


----------



## bluecordelia

Forester said:


> PF won't let me quote either today.
> 
> Sarah, I joined the Yahoo IBD group. I haven't had time to look at it much yet but will obviously report back on anything which I find that might be useful to anyone on here. Being digitally challenged I'm finding it a little confusing to navigate at present.
> 
> It sounds as though Roman's minor setback could well be down to the small amount of dry food. Hopefully he will soon be back to producing only firm poo.
> 
> LDK1. I'm so pleased that you're making progress with Rosie.  What changes have you made with her? Sorry, if you've already said what you were going to do. I have a head like a sieve.
> 
> Poor Rosie, it sounds as though she may have had a nasty bug. I'm glad that she's getting better now. Sorry to hear that you are under the weather yourself LDK1. , hope that you feel better soon.
> 
> bluecordelia, the approach that you've taken with Blue certainly seems to have worked .  Well done, you. My vet has taken an exclusively medical approach to Dyl's vomiting but then that's what I went to her for. I am , however convinced that the answers, for him ,are not entirely medical.
> 
> love to all IBD kitties and slaves.[/QUOT
> 
> Hi Forrester, if honest i was dreading her finishing antibiotics and the symptoms returning. Although the acute dire rear stopped, we still had 3/4 episodes everyday and she couldn't control it.
> 
> I think there is a lot to be said for my non medical approach although I would medicate if needed. A lot of the time it was trial and error but she is more happy now. I hadn't realised how spiky she was until Ivan joined us.
> 
> My previous cat Saul could only just cope with her antics and I don't know if they bumped heads more than I realised. Blue got ill after I lost Saul. She is now top cat and can be a madam with Ivan...think praying mantis if you know what i mean!
> 
> Hope everyone ok and the storm is a damp squib x


----------



## bluecordelia

I don't think i could do another group...this ones moves fast enough. I am getting old. X


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I had to un - join the yahoo group as I got confused
> 
> Sarah as much as we love them..boredom is a human emotion and whilst we may think that piece of cod is tempting for them..we have to think what's best for them
> 
> When you have done at least 8 weeks on skippy then you can introduce over foods and note which ones are good foods and ones that are not..when you get them big lovely eyes pleading for something else..leave the room quick!!


I'm going to look into how I un-join the asthma group, didn't think of doing that  

Don't think I'll be feeding cod or any other fish foods to Roman, I'd be too scared  what's left of the bag of dry I've sealed and packaged up for my local rescue  I'm not going to be tempted to give him anything he shouldn't have  tough love is the way  They are still being fed separately when Frank and Seb have something different to eat, if they have skippy I leave the kitchen door open, Roman prefers to eat his food on the work top  Frank and Seb in the dining room.

I was going to ask how long I should wait before introducing the rabbit, I was going to do it over Christmas when I'm off, but I'll see how things go but will make sure its been over the 8 weeks.

We had no poo yesterday  I think that's the first time in the 14 months he's been with us that he hasn't been, he ate better yesterday too


----------



## sarahecp

Quick update - Just got home for lunch to a nice firm poo in the litter tray   Roman's now tucking in to his skippy and pumpkin   

Going to have to place another order with VC this week, only ordered 24 tins of skippy, now down to 9  I have been feeding it to Frank and Seb as well so will order extra  

Hope everyone else is doing o k today xx


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> Forester said:
> 
> 
> 
> PF won't let me quote either today.
> 
> Sarah, I joined the Yahoo IBD group. I haven't had time to look at it much yet but will obviously report back on anything which I find that might be useful to anyone on here. Being digitally challenged I'm finding it a little confusing to navigate at present.
> 
> It sounds as though Roman's minor setback could well be down to the small amount of dry food. Hopefully he will soon be back to producing only firm poo.
> 
> LDK1. I'm so pleased that you're making progress with Rosie.  What changes have you made with her? Sorry, if you've already said what you were going to do. I have a head like a sieve.
> 
> Poor Rosie, it sounds as though she may have had a nasty bug. I'm glad that she's getting better now. Sorry to hear that you are under the weather yourself LDK1. , hope that you feel better soon.
> 
> bluecordelia, the approach that you've taken with Blue certainly seems to have worked .  Well done, you. My vet has taken an exclusively medical approach to Dyl's vomiting but then that's what I went to her for. I am , however convinced that the answers, for him ,are not entirely medical.
> 
> love to all IBD kitties and slaves.[/QUOT
> 
> Hi Forrester, if honest i was dreading her finishing antibiotics and the symptoms returning. Although the acute dire rear stopped, we still had 3/4 episodes everyday and she couldn't control it.
> 
> I think there is a lot to be said for my non medical approach although I would medicate if needed. A lot of the time it was trial and error but she is more happy now. I hadn't realised how spiky she was until Ivan joined us.
> 
> My previous cat Saul could only just cope with her antics and I don't know if they bumped heads more than I realised. Blue got ill after I lost Saul. She is now top cat and can be a madam with Ivan...think praying mantis if you know what i mean!
> 
> Hope everyone ok and the storm is a damp squib x
> 
> 
> 
> Blue sounds such a character. I admire her spirit. She is lucky to have you, and you her.
> 
> 
> 
> bluecordelia said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think i could do another group...this ones moves fast enough. I am getting old. X
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm starting to wonder about my wisdom. I did it at a really low point, thinking " I have to devote *everything I have *to finding a way to help Dylan". I do want to try to look at everything which is " out there" and then use my judgement to decide what to retain and what to discard. I've just read a few snippets so far, haven't even found time to fill out my joining questionnaire yet .I keep saying that I'll find time tomorrow but we all know what happens to tomorrow.
Click to expand...


----------



## Forester

Sarah, I definitely agree with Nicola about not introducing any other foods yet. 

That's how I messed things up for Dylan and got into trouble with my vet . I tried other foods off my own bat when Dylan had only been on the Sensitivity Control for 5 weeks. I misunderstood her plan and was far too keen to get him off, what I considered to be a very poor quality food. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I'd completely messed things up and that we'd lost all of the benefit that we'd gained in those 5 weeks. I wonder whether we not only lost those 5 weeks but also ended up starting back from a point where he was, by then, 8 weeks further back than he would have been. I hope that you can understand what I mean.

I wouldn't worry about Roman not producing enough poo as long as he is eating. He hasn't got all of those fillers to pass through. Dyl is only going every other day now. There just isn't the wastage from the rabbit. 

I can understand why my vet didn't want me to add the felini at present but I am considering getting and adding some taurine. This trial is taking longer than I'd originally envisaged. 

Anyway, Dylan continues to be o k , if a little vocal because rations have reduced slightly.

Hoping that Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie are also o k .

love to all


----------



## LDK1

sarahecp said:


> Quick update - Just got home for lunch to a nice firm poo in the litter tray   Roman's now tucking in to his skippy and pumpkin


This is really really good news!



Forester said:


> That's how I messed things up for Dylan and got into trouble with my vet . I tried other foods off my own bat when Dylan had only been on the Sensitivity Control for 5 weeks. I misunderstood her plan *and was far too keen to get him off, what I considered to be a very poor quality food.* I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I'd completely messed things up and that we'd lost all of the benefit that we'd gained in those 5 weeks. I wonder whether we not only lost those 5 weeks but also ended up starting back from a point where he was, by then, 8 weeks further back than he would have been. I hope that you can understand what I mean.


I was pretty much the same as you in not wanting to feed the vet prescribed food, and as soon as it appeared not to help (or make things worse) I was ready to jack it in. But my own attempts didn't help either in the short term, hence deciding to follow through fully with the z/d first - even though I hate feeding dry.

When I look back at my food diary it's frustrating to think that, although the trial started over 9 weeks ago, it's only 3 weeks that Rosie has fully been on the dry z/d - the previous 6 weeks being a mess of introducing different things that haven't worked out.

My vet said do the trial for 6 weeks, but I'm giving it 3 months if Rosie can stand it, after reading Dr.Becker's views on food trials.

Great to read that Dylan is also doing well at the moment!


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Quick update - Just got home for lunch to a nice firm poo in the litter tray   Roman's now tucking in to his skippy and pumpkin


Way Hey, That's brilliant on both fronts.. Keep it up Roman. Sarah, I am so pleased that you and Roman seem to be making progress.



LDK1 said:


> I was pretty much the same as you in not wanting to feed the vet prescribed food, and as soon as it appeared not to help (or make things worse) I was ready to jack it in. But my own attempts didn't help either in the short term, hence deciding to follow through fully with the z/d first - even though I hate feeding dry.
> 
> When I look back at my food diary it's frustrating to think that, although the trial started over 9 weeks ago, it's only 3 weeks that Rosie has fully been on the dry z/d - the previous 6 weeks being a mess of introducing different things that haven't worked out.
> 
> My vet said do the trial for 6 weeks, but I'm giving it 3 months if Rosie can stand it, after reading Dr.Becker's views on food trials.
> 
> Great to read that Dylan is also doing well at the moment!


It sounds as though we both reacted in exactly the same way LDK1. You've made me feel a bit better about it now, knowing that I was not the only one to try to " do it my way " and then regret it.

Can you remind me what Dr Becker thinks about the length of a food trial.? I have seen one of her video's and an article but can't remember what she said. Its that head like a sieve again though I often used to claim at work that it was an overloaded brain. 

Thanks . I'm pleased that you seem to be taking great strides with Rosie too. 

Hoping that everyone is "o k ", feline, human ( and hog )


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Sarah, I definitely agree with Nicola about not introducing any other foods yet.
> 
> That's how I messed things up for Dylan and got into trouble with my vet . I tried other foods off my own bat when Dylan had only been on the Sensitivity Control for 5 weeks. I misunderstood her plan and was far too keen to get him off, what I considered to be a very poor quality food. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I'd completely messed things up and that we'd lost all of the benefit that we'd gained in those 5 weeks. I wonder whether we not only lost those 5 weeks but also ended up starting back from a point where he was, by then, 8 weeks further back than he would have been. I hope that you can understand what I mean.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about Roman not producing enough poo as long as he is eating. He hasn't got all of those fillers to pass through. Dyl is only going every other day now. There just isn't the wastage from the rabbit.
> 
> I can understand why my vet didn't want me to add the felini at present but I am considering getting and adding some taurine. This trial is taking longer than I'd originally envisaged.
> 
> Anyway, Dylan continues to be o k , if a little vocal because rations have reduced slightly.
> 
> Hoping that Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie are also o k .
> 
> love to all


I know when I do come around to introducing new foods I'm going to be petrified 

I know exactly what you mean 

I really didn't want to give Roman the dry RC but that's all he would eat, when we first went to Davies and was given the list of prescription foods from Patricia I was like, I don't really want to feed this, and mention novel protein, she didn't really comment, I'm sure she must be aware of other food trials other than RC and Hills, but maybe not. I wasn't aware of novel protein and didn't know what it was until Nicola explained and advised. I think if it wasn't for PF and you ladies we'd still be on the RC dry and maybe not as far as we are, I don't know  but at the moment I'm happy that Roman seems a lot happier 

That is very true, I'm still getting used to him going to the poo once a day, so when there was none yesterday I was thinking we've gone the other way now and he's constipated. I've got to start relaxing and stop worrying, it's hard though.

I'm glad Dylan is still doing o k  xx


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Can you remind me what Dr Becker thinks about the length of a food trial.? I have seen one of her video's and an article but can't remember what she said.


Dr. Becker says a food trial should be a minimum of two months, but she personally recommends three months.

Here's her video, and she mentions this about 5.15 minutes in:

[youtube_browser]l0-9JxN-gZ4[/youtube_browser]


----------



## Forester

Thank you so much LDK1 

I've just watched it all again. It is the same one which I saw a while back :thumbup:

I wish that I knew what she would think about a cat who starts off o k with a food/protein but then deteriorates with symptoms becoming more and more frequent.  Nevertheless , Dylan is doing much better with the cooked wild rabbit than he was when I tried him on raw.

He has left me a present in the bedroom today which I would prefer not to have had....rabbit . Never mind, I'm enjoying my cat!


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Dr. Becker says a food trial should be a minimum of two months, but she personally recommends three months.
> 
> Here's her video, and she mentions this about 5.15 minutes in:
> 
> [youtube_browser]l0-9JxN-gZ4[/youtube_browser]


Thanks for posting this 

I like Dr Becker  I've seen a few of her videos, this one too but watched it again 

Neither my own vet or the referral vet have mentioned anything about food trials, in fact not a lot about food really only feeding the prescription stuff, but not over a period of time.

I've said before if it wasn't for you ladies on this thread I wouldn't know where to have begun and I don't think we would be where we are now, so again, thank you all for being here when I've been feeling down, your support, help, advice and sharing your experience and stories  xx

Roman has been o k again today  called my vet today re Roman's blood test as it's a week since he had it done and no call from them, his results are back but waiting for my vet to call to explain the results as the receptionist didn't understand them.

Hope everyone is o k today  xx


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thank you so much LDK1
> 
> I've just watched it all again. It is the same one which I saw a while back :thumbup:
> 
> I wish that I knew what she would think about a cat who starts off o k with a food/protein but then deteriorates with symptoms becoming more and more frequent.  Nevertheless , Dylan is doing much better with the cooked wild rabbit than he was when I tried him on raw.
> 
> He has left me a present in the bedroom today which I would prefer not to have had....rabbit . Never mind, I'm enjoying my cat!


I'm glad you're enjoying your cat   hope you haven't had any presents today and Dylan is o k


----------



## bluecordelia

I don't worry if we don't have a daily poop. When they are on a good diet there isn't much left to come out...blue has taken to pooping outdoors...a pita as all the fields are ploughed at the moment so i have soil on my bed. She still weds in an empty litter tray...i think its just going to be her unique way &#55357;&#56842;.
Hope everyone ok. X


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> I don't worry if we don't have a daily poop. When they are on a good diet there isn't much left to come out...blue has taken to pooping outdoors...a pita as all the fields are ploughed at the moment so i have soil on my bed. She still weds in an empty litter tray...i think its just going to be her unique way ��.
> Hope everyone ok. X


I think I was so used to Roman going numerous times, it was like the norm, and now just going once a day, and then none, it felt a bit strange.

They all have their own little ways of doing things  sounds like Blue's happy and doing well


----------



## Linda L

I would like to know if diet is the answer. Bear had his teeth cleaned when he was 7, I had put it off as long as possible, he is now 10. The vet has to put cats to sleep unlike dogs. I was worried at the time about putting Bear to sleep at his age then. The vet again has been talking about Bear's teeth and noticing tartar was starting up again.


----------



## Linda L

Thank you so much for this post. I have a peace lily in the house and also did not know about lily of the valley which I have in my garden, but not for long. Will be busy digging them up but will be at it for some time as they multiply quickly.


----------



## AFKMatrix

Ccat2005 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Firstly just to apologise for not posting in years (my average post rate is 0.03 per day  ) but I'm going through some kitty teeth issues so thought I'd share in case it helps -
> 
> Short story - I now have 2 persian cats, Chicken (4) and Rex (1) and our next mission is dental health, as Chicken has some dodgy plaque build up which has been worrying us. We found the following tooth pastes and brushes and our vet has said these are good:
> 
> http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c...ogic-oral-hygiene-gel-pet-toothpaste-70g-p-49
> 
> http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c...veterinary-toothpaste-for-cats-and-dogs-p-763
> 
> http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c...ell-puppy-and-kitten-finger-toothbrush-p-8768
> 
> Vet also recommended to try Denta Dentagen toothpaste.
> 
> Not endorsing these at all as haven't tried them but we are going to purchase some soon... That said, may first decide to book Chicken for dental cleaning as per the article  will have to read more into it first though.
> 
> Thanks for the helpful sticky!!


Hi there,

I have had issues with red gums with my 2 MC's and there only 10months and Shadow has even had to have some gum tissue removed so I can better clean his teeth. This is part of his CaliciVirus though so I know why he has the red gums etc.

Anyway in relation to your question of what to get I got this kit:

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c..._832/cet-toothpaste-and-toothbrush-kits-p-757

And the brush is far easier/better to use than the one you have in your third link. I did try the one you had linked to but it was so big and the bristles were so riggid the boys hated it.

But they tolarate the CET toothbrush lol. I also give Shadow Pet Dent Antibacterial Mouth Gel as it has antibaterials in and its also similar to the stuff the vets use when doing dentals I am told. This has really helped Shadows gums so I hope it helps your kitty


----------



## sarahecp

Quick update - Vet called, Roman's bloods were all good 

He's still doing o k  

Hope all masters, mistresses, hogs and slaves are ok  xx


----------



## vivien

sarahecp said:


> Quick update - Vet called, Roman's bloods were all good
> 
> He's still doing o k
> 
> Hope all masters, mistresses, hogs and slaves are ok  xx


Great news Romans bloods are all good :thumbup1: :thumbup1:v:thumbup1:
Hope you and your boys are all ok.

Viv xx


----------



## sarahecp

vivien said:


> Great news Romans bloods are all good :thumbup1: :thumbup1:v:thumbup1:
> Hope you and your boys are all ok.
> 
> Viv xx


Thanks Viv 

Were all good thanks  hope you and your furry gang are all ok xx


----------



## vivien

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Viv
> 
> Were all good thanks  hope you and your furry gang are all ok xx


Us too Sarah. Except yogi was a little unwell yesterday. But he is fine today 

Viv xx


----------



## sarahecp

vivien said:


> Us too Sarah. Except yogi was a little unwell yesterday. But he is fine today
> 
> Viv xx


Poor Yogi  pleased he's ok today


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Quick update - Vet called, Roman's bloods were all good
> 
> He's still doing o k
> 
> Hope all masters, mistresses, hogs and slaves are ok  xx


Excellent news Sarah 

We're O K here , no more presents.

Sending positive vibes to all


----------



## nicolaa123

Still can't like or multi quote 

Pleased all seems ok with others and we are enjoying our little monsters!

Riley is ok, had a few not so ok days, but had a lovely tray deposit tonight, I was thinking about starting another a'b course but will hold off a bit longer.

Aragorn has had a runny bum (rabbit flavour cat food does not agree with him) so he has a sore and pink tail from where he then laid in the poo :mad2: so I'm applying tea tree cream to his tail twice a day..which to do, I have to hold him upside down in front of a mirror and dab the cream on his tail with a cotton bud, this at 6.45 am is not fun  but his tail is looking better!

Sarah has your vet said how long you will continue the chlorambucil for?


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Excellent news Sarah
> 
> We're O K here , no more presents.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to all


Thanks Sylv  xx

Pleased to hear all ok and no more presents  



nicolaa123 said:


> Still can't like or multi quote
> 
> Pleased all seems ok with others and we are enjoying our little monsters!
> 
> Riley is ok, had a few not so ok days, but had a lovely tray deposit tonight, I was thinking about starting another a'b course but will hold off a bit longer.
> 
> Aragorn has had a runny bum (rabbit flavour cat food does not agree with him) so he has a sore and pink tail from where he then laid in the poo :mad2: so I'm applying tea tree cream to his tail twice a day..which to do, I have to hold him upside down in front of a mirror and dab the cream on his tail with a cotton bud, this at 6.45 am is not fun  but his tail is looking better!
> 
> Sarah has your vet said how long you will continue the chlorambucil for?


Pleased You had a a lovely tray deposit  

Poor Aragorn  hope his sore tail heals up soon.

Patricia said to continue with the increased Pred dose and the chlorambucil for 2 weeks, she will decide what we need to do when I next update her on his progress which will be next Monday.


----------



## Forester

That's great news about Riley's tray deposit today 

What a shame that little Aragorn has an upset tummy. Was he on the rabbit cat food before coming to stay with you Nicola?. I hope that his tummy will soon settle .

Whilst you were cleaning Aragorn's tail this morning did it occur to you that its the rest of us who are missing out. ? Most of us will never enjoy the pleasures of helping to rear a little hedgehog. I'm sure that Aragorn will pay you back tenfold for the care that you give him. :thumbsup:

Edited to add :Thanks Sarah for your good wishes,( we cross posted again. !)


----------



## nicolaa123

Well he was only at the hospital for a few days before coming home with me, before that he would have been starving as was skin and bones..now he has a fat pouch! I would take photos but he is a shy one..so I just leave him be 

Sarah, Be interesting what they say next I imagine reduce the pred then the chlorambucil as the later is the lesser evil . As you know riley is on the chlorambucil for life as we can't risk that he will have a major relapse and then the pills not working, but I'm thinking to speak to my vet about trying to lengthen the time to once a fortnight with him on a slow basis..I will discuss this with her in December with her. I also need to have done a bit of research first and also he will need his weight and bloods checking!

How great must it be for Roman to not have had a runny bum :thumbup:


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Well he was only at the hospital for a few days before coming home with me, before that he would have been starving as was skin and bones..now he has a fat pouch! I would take photos but he is a shy one..so I just leave him be
> 
> Sarah, Be interesting what they say next I imagine reduce the pred then the chlorambucil as the later is the lesser evil . As you know riley is on the chlorambucil for life as we can't risk that he will have a major relapse and then the pills not working, but I'm thinking to speak to my vet about trying to lengthen the time to once a fortnight with him on a slow basis..I will discuss this with her in December with her. I also need to have done a bit of research first and also he will need his weight and bloods checking!
> 
> How great must it be for Roman to not have had a runny bum :thumbup:


My thinking is that when I speak to Patricia on Monday that she'll say to reduce the Pred.

How often does Riley have the chlorambucil?

Roman must feel like a different cat   he certainly seems a lot happier   looking at his bum tonight it looks quite normal


----------



## Forester

Afternoon all.

I hope that Riley and Roman are continuing to provide top quality tray deposits and that everyone is " O K ".Positive vibes being sent for these boys as well as for Blue, Meeko and Rosie.

I'm sure that little Aragorn will also have benefitted from all of the TLC which has been devoted to him. I hope that his tail is also more comfortable. I don't think that I phrased myself very well when I last spoke about him.. It must be so satisfying to be able to care for such a vulnerable little soul and see your efforts rewarded in his progress. :thumbup:

Dyl is still o k. I need to report back to my vet next week on his progress. I'm feeling reasonably positive. 2 and a half weeks have brought only 1 vomit if I don't count the 2 which appear to have been brought about by using the slow feeder. I still can't get my head around that.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Afternoon all.
> 
> I hope that Riley and Roman are continuing to provide top quality tray deposits and that everyone is " O K ".Positive vibes being sent for these boys as well as for Blue, Meeko and Rosie.
> 
> I'm sure that little Aragorn will also have benefitted from all of the TLC which has been devoted to him. I hope that his tail is also more comfortable. I don't think that I phrased myself very well when I last spoke about him.. It must be so satisfying to be able to care for such a vulnerable little soul and see your efforts rewarded in his progress. :thumbup:
> 
> Dyl is still o k. I need to report back to my vet next week on his progress. I'm feeling reasonably positive. 2 and a half weeks have brought only 1 vomit if I don't count the 2 which appear to have been brought about by using the slow feeder. I still can't get my head around that.
> 
> love to all


Hi Sylv, pleased to hear Dylan is still o k  and so glad you're feeling positive 

Roman is still o k  he's happy  and so am I  Need to update Patricia on Monday on his progress over the last 2 weeks.

Hope everyone else is doing o k

Have a good weekend all  xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Hi Sylv, pleased to hear Dylan is still o k  and so glad you're feeling positive
> 
> Roman is still o k  he's happy  and so am I  Need to update Patricia on Monday on his progress over the last 2 weeks.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing o k
> 
> Have a good weekend all  xx


Excellent news . I'm so pleased for you ( and Roman  )


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Excellent news . I'm so pleased for you ( and Roman  )


Thanks Sylv  xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Riley has one per week and will for life..

I'm sure Aragorn has benefited from all the positive vibes  

I don't do that much just fatten them up :thumbup:

Pleased to hear ok is all around!


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

Roman is still doing o k  

I spoke to Patricia today, she said she was really pleased with Roman's progress  she wants to reduce the Pred from 10mg a day to 5mg for a month and to continue with the chlorambucil every other day. She also said that while he's on the chlorambucil he will need to have monthly blood tests, so need to book another one with my vet for 17th November. She wants me to update her in a months time. 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all o k xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Afternoon all
> 
> Roman is still doing o k
> 
> I spoke to Patricia today, she said she was really pleased with Roman's progress  she wants to reduce the Pred from 10mg a day to 5mg for a month and to continue with the chlorambucil every other day. She also said that while he's on the chlorambucil he will need to have monthly blood tests, so need to book another one with my vet for 17th November. She wants me to update her in a months time.
> 
> Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all o k xx


Excellent news Sarah  How is he in himself now?

Dylan's " o k " . Fingers crossed that all other IBDers are also O K.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Excellent news Sarah  How is he in himself now?
> 
> Dylan's " o k " . Fingers crossed that all other IBDers are also O K.


Thanks Sylv  x

Roman is fine in himself  though quite sleepy tonight, he had a hectic day playing with my nephew  I had the day off today, it's half term so my mum, sister and nephew came to visit 

Pleased to hear Dyl is o k  have you spoke to your vet yet?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv  x
> 
> Roman is fine in himself  though quite sleepy tonight, he had a hectic day playing with my nephew  I had the day off today, it's half term so my mum, sister and nephew came to visit
> 
> Pleased to hear Dyl is o k  have you spoke to your vet yet?


I'm glad that Roman's feeling better. Its understandable that he should want a nap after a hectic day..

I'll either ring or call in to see my vet towards the end of the week. I'm expecting instructions to be to keep everything the same for another couple of weeks. One thing is certain, I won't be trying Dylan with the slow feeder again in a hurry.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm glad that Roman's feeling better. Its understandable that he should want a nap after a hectic day..
> 
> I'll either ring or call in to see my vet towards the end of the week. I'm expecting instructions to be to keep everything the same for another couple of weeks. One thing is certain, I won't be trying Dylan with the slow feeder again in a hurry.


Let us know what your vet says.

If I was you I don't think I would try it again either, it did seem a good idea, but we need to try these things.

How's Dyl getting on with you reducing his food amount?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> How's Dyl getting on with you reducing his food amount?


O K ish . Poor boy doesn't get much choice. I've now reduced *all*of the rabbit meals to 25g so in a day he gets 100g sensitivity control and 100g rabbit. He did get an extra "snack " yesterday due to the clock change and the fact that we were going out in the morning so lunch was going to be late anyway. I think that he's probably still having slightly more than he needs. He tells me that he's permanently starving but his waist has almost disappeared.  I've tried to increase his exercise but he will play for a few minutes but then walks away as if to say " play on your own I'm going for a nap "


----------



## bluecordelia

Its lovely to come back and see all kits are ticking over nicely. 

Blue remains well...the change in the clocks threw them and I didn't have to get up at 6 to let them out. Both are being very nice to each other ie lay together on a chest of drawers.


Hope all kits mistresses and hogs keep up the good. 

Its weird about forresters feeder and the sickness...ib cats don't play by obvious rules!

Speak soon x


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> O K ish . Poor boy doesn't get much choice. I've now reduced *all*of the rabbit meals to 25g so in a day he gets 100g sensitivity control and 100g rabbit. He did get an extra "snack " yesterday due to the clock change and the fact that we were going out in the morning so lunch was going to be late anyway. I think that he's probably still having slightly more than he needs. He tells me that he's permanently starving but his waist has almost disappeared.  I've tried to increase his exercise but he will play for a few minutes but then walks away as if to say " play on your own I'm going for a nap "


If only they understood we do these things for them for their own good.

Dyl sounds like Frank, he keeps telling me I'm starving him  every time I take a plate out he's there looking at me telling me he needs more food


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Its lovely to come back and see all kits are ticking over nicely.
> 
> Blue remains well...the change in the clocks threw them and I didn't have to get up at 6 to let them out. Both are being very nice to each other ie lay together on a chest of drawers.
> 
> Hope all kits mistresses and hogs keep up the good.
> 
> Its weird about forresters feeder and the sickness...ib cats don't play by obvious rules!
> 
> Speak soon x


Pleased to hear Blue is still doing well   and glad they're being nice to each other


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> Its lovely to come back and see all kits are ticking over nicely.
> 
> Blue remains well...the change in the clocks threw them and I didn't have to get up at 6 to let them out. Both are being very nice to each other ie lay together on a chest of drawers.
> 
> Hope all kits mistresses and hogs keep up the good.
> 
> Its weird about forresters feeder and the sickness*...ib cats don't play by obvious rules!*
> Speak soon x


Its good to hear that Blue continues to do well  Perhaps winter conditions will encourage Blue and Ivan to cuddle up together more often.

As for IB cats and rules I've never seen truer words. In addition to the unwanted response to the slow feeder I can't understand how the antacid stopped Dylan vomiting his breakfast but started him vomiting at other times.  

Love and positive vibes to all. Fingers crossed that everyone stays " o k "


----------



## Forester

Evening all.

Everything seems to have gone relatively quiet here over the last few days. I do hope that all IBD kitties and slaves are O K . Fingers crossed that no news is good news.

Dylan is still O K . I spoke with my vet today. I may have got a bit carried away in saying that I thought that we have found the optimum pred. dose for him. ( The attempts at positive thinking have somewhat taken over ) I explained about the vomiting with the feeder and that I'd decided to ignore those incidents . It definitely didn't fit in with his normal pattern. 

Instructions are to continue with the current pred. regime for a minimum of 2 to 3 months.  The vet said that she thought that he might need to continue the pred. indefinitely however I have expressed a desire to try to gradually reduce the dose hopefully down to nothing.

I did recheck with her that the pinch biopsies taken during endoscopy didn't show any inflammatory cells at all. She repeated that a full thickness biopsy would have been better for diagnostic purposes.

As usual on the phone my brain froze. I meant to ask about how to continue diet wise but didn't think about it till afterwards. I'm going to continue as at present but adding some taurine for a while . Then I'll try adding some felini so that I'll be happier about his restricted diet. I know that I could put him completely onto Sensitivity Control but I don't really consider that a good food.

I expressed concern about him possibly developing diabetes but she did not appear particularly concerned. She expressed the view that I keep such a close eye on him that I would not allow him to get overweight and inactive.

love and positive vibes to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Evening all.
> 
> Everything seems to have gone relatively quiet here over the last few days. I do hope that all IBD kitties and slaves are O K . Fingers crossed that no news is good news.
> 
> Dylan is still O K . I spoke with my vet today. I may have got a bit carried away in saying that I thought that we have found the optimum pred. dose for him. ( The attempts at positive thinking have somewhat taken over ) I explained about the vomiting with the feeder and that I'd decided to ignore those incidents . It definitely didn't fit in with his normal pattern.
> 
> Instructions are to continue with the current pred. regime for a minimum of 2 to 3 months.  The vet said that she thought that he might need to continue the pred. indefinitely however I have expressed a desire to try to gradually reduce the dose hopefully down to nothing.
> 
> I did recheck with her that the pinch biopsies taken during endoscopy didn't show any inflammatory cells at all. She repeated that a full thickness biopsy would have been better for diagnostic purposes.
> 
> As usual on the phone my brain froze. I meant to ask about how to continue diet wise but didn't think about it till afterwards. I'm going to continue as at present but adding some taurine for a while . Then I'll try adding some felini so that I'll be happier about his restricted diet. I know that I could put him completely onto Sensitivity Control but I don't really consider that a good food.
> 
> I expressed concern about him possibly developing diabetes but she did not appear particularly concerned. She expressed the view that I keep such a close eye on him that I would not allow him to get overweight and inactive.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all


It has been quiet over here, I do hope everyone is doing o k.

I'm pleased Dylan is still doing o k 

Glad you got to speak to your vet  2-3 months does seem a long time, I went into a bit of a panic when Patricia said to reduce for a month. But a good thing your vet wasn't overly concerned. My own vet and Patricia have both said that it isn't a good idea and wouldn't keep Roman on the Pred long term, but what do they class as long term?

Before Roman was referred to Davies, I discussed with my vet about investigations and he said that going for a full thickness biopsy though had some risks would have better diagnosis. Roman's endoscopy did show some inflammatory cells.

You're not the only one whose brain freezes while on the phone, when I get off I'm like I should have asked this, should have asked that!

I think adding some taurine and maybe some Fellini too is a good plan  I feel the same as you about the SC food.

Roman is still doing o k  can't remember if I said but he had no poo over the weekend, from Monday he was back to normal of going once a day, I'm not worrying now when he doesn't go  Today is day 3 of the reduced Pred. I'm still giving him a teaspoon of pumpkin with each meal, with Frank and Seb now eating the skippy we're getting through quite a lot, they're getting some pumpkin too 

When cleaning out the litter tray earlier I came across an ant and a ladybird   I have a phobia of ants  Why on earth were they in the litter tray   did freak me out so me being me I threw the whole lot out, cleaned it and put fresh litter in   thinking about it now I'd rather have them in the tray than dire rear


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Evening all.
> 
> Everything seems to have gone relatively quiet here over the last few days. I do hope that all IBD kitties and slaves are O K . Fingers crossed that no news is good news.
> 
> Dylan is still O K . I spoke with my vet today. I may have got a bit carried away in saying that I thought that we have found the optimum pred. dose for him. ( The attempts at positive thinking have somewhat taken over ) I explained about the vomiting with the feeder and that I'd decided to ignore those incidents . It definitely didn't fit in with his normal pattern.
> 
> Instructions are to continue with the current pred. regime for a minimum of 2 to 3 months.  The vet said that she thought that he might need to continue the pred. indefinitely however I have expressed a desire to try to gradually reduce the dose hopefully down to nothing.
> 
> I did recheck with her that the pinch biopsies taken during endoscopy didn't show any inflammatory cells at all. She repeated that a full thickness biopsy would have been better for diagnostic purposes.
> 
> As usual on the phone my brain froze. I meant to ask about how to continue diet wise but didn't think about it till afterwards. I'm going to continue as at present but adding some taurine for a while . Then I'll try adding some felini so that I'll be happier about his restricted diet. I know that I could put him completely onto Sensitivity Control but I don't really consider that a good food.
> 
> I expressed concern about him possibly developing diabetes but she did not appear particularly concerned. She expressed the view that I keep such a close eye on him that I would not allow him to get overweight and inactive.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all


That is a very long time on the pred, could you not even for one day a week cut it back on a gradual basis. Think I would speak to the vet again, I could understand another two weeks, but months :


----------



## LDK1

Hello all,

Pleased to read that Roman, Dylan & Blue are doing okay, hoping the same goes for Meeko & Riley.

Rosie has not been so good. She's started vomiting again (4 days out of the last 6) and has started to leave some of her food - so she seems to be going backwards despite having been on the z/d for over 4 weeks.

I'm pretty convinced that this is more a case of excess acid rather than any intolerance to a particular protein - but it is possible that in general she made need a low fat, low protein diet (whatever the protein source) in the near future, maybe with some antacid medication to help. I could be wrong of course.

I shall continue to finish the z/d six week trial, but there will be no point her sticking with it for the 3 months unless it is making more of a difference IMO. I shall be seeing the main vet soon so I'll let you know how that goes.


----------



## sarahecp

LDK1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Pleased to read that Roman, Dylan & Blue are doing okay, hoping the same goes for Meeko & Riley.
> 
> Rosie has not been so good. She's started vomiting again (4 days out of the last 6) and has started to leave some of her food - so she seems to be going backwards despite having been on the z/d for over 4 weeks.
> 
> I'm pretty convinced that this is more a case of excess acid rather than any intolerance to a particular protein - but it is possible that in general she made need a low fat, low protein diet (whatever the protein source) in the near future, maybe with some antacid medication to help. I could be wrong of course.
> 
> I shall continue to finish the z/d six week trial, but there will be no point her sticking with it for the 3 months unless it is making more of a difference IMO. I shall be seeing the main vet soon so I'll let you know how that goes.


I'm sorry to hear Rosie hasn't been too good and vomiting and leaving her food  as I don't have experience with the vomiting I can't advise, sorry, but I agree with you about the z/d if it's not helping then I wouldn't continue either.

I really do hope Rosie starts to improve soon and if the z/d doesn't start to help you can find the right food that suits her.

Let us know what your vet says.


----------



## Forester

Whoops, after commenting that the thread had gone quiet my internet decided to prevent me from posting until now. 



sarahecp said:


> It has been quiet over here, I do hope everyone is doing o k.
> 
> I'm pleased Dylan is still doing o k
> 
> Glad you got to speak to your vet  2-3 months does seem a long time, I went into a bit of a panic when Patricia said to reduce for a month. But a good thing your vet wasn't overly concerned. My own vet and Patricia have both said that it isn't a good idea and wouldn't keep Roman on the Pred long term, but what do they class as long term?
> 
> Before Roman was referred to Davies, I discussed with my vet about investigations and he said that going for a full thickness biopsy though had some risks would have better diagnosis. Roman's endoscopy did show some inflammatory cells.
> 
> You're not the only one whose brain freezes while on the phone, when I get off I'm like I should have asked this, should have asked that!
> 
> I think adding some taurine and maybe some Fellini too is a good plan  I feel the same as you about the SC food.
> 
> Roman is still doing o k  can't remember if I said but he had no poo over the weekend, from Monday he was back to normal of going once a day, I'm not worrying now when he doesn't go  Today is day 3 of the reduced Pred. I'm still giving him a teaspoon of pumpkin with each meal, with Frank and Seb now eating the skippy we're getting through quite a lot, they're getting some pumpkin too
> 
> When cleaning out the litter tray earlier I came across an ant and a ladybird   I have a phobia of ants  Why on earth were they in the litter tray   did freak me out so me being me I threw the whole lot out, cleaned it and put fresh litter in   thinking about it now I'd rather have them in the tray than dire rear


I don't have any regrets about not having the full thickness biopsy. It sounded far too invasive and risky for my liking. The only time I could have contemplated something like that would be if his life were in imminent danger without it.

It certainly sounds as though you, your vets and Davies , ( with advice from Nicola  ) are finding a solution for Roman.:thumbup: Oh dear that sounds as though Davies were advised by Nicola :lol: but I'm sure that you know what I mean. Fingers crossed that he continues to improve. I'm sure that you have made all of the right decisions regarding his treatment.

What dosage of pred is Roman on at the moment?

Sorry but I had to laugh about your reaction to the ant . I hope that there are no more around  .



nicolaa123 said:


> That is a very long time on the pred, could you not even for one day a week cut it back on a gradual basis. Think I would speak to the vet again, I could understand another two weeks, but months :


I agree that I don't want Dylan to be on the pred. long term however I need to prevent any long term inflammation which might turn to lymphoma. I understand that the reason that my vet doesn't want to reduce sooner is because of his long term history. It has taken us 10 months to get to this stage. I desperately hope that I haven't been premature in thinking that we now have the vomiting reasonably under control. He has been vomiting to a greater or lesser extent since I adopted him in March 13 but it was initially put down to him eating too quickly or too much. Each time I was about to take him to the vets he would improve for a while .

My vet says that it is extremely important that the pred is not reduced too early causing a relapse as that would put us back to where we were before starting the pred. . I have also read that reducing steroids too quickly is a common reason for failure to control IBD. I do now regret putting off trying the steroids for as long as I did but I really did want to avoid using them if possible.



LDK1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Pleased to read that Roman, Dylan & Blue are doing okay, hoping the same goes for Meeko & Riley.
> 
> Rosie has not been so good. She's started vomiting again (4 days out of the last 6) and has started to leave some of her food - so she seems to be going backwards despite having been on the z/d for over 4 weeks.
> 
> I'm pretty convinced that this is more a case of excess acid rather than any intolerance to a particular protein - but it is possible that in general she made need a low fat, low protein diet (whatever the protein source) in the near future, maybe with some antacid medication to help. I could be wrong of course.
> 
> I shall continue to finish the z/d six week trial, but there will be no point her sticking with it for the 3 months unless it is making more of a difference IMO. I shall be seeing the main vet soon so I'll let you know how that goes.


Ohhh LDK1 . I'm so sorry to hear this. It had sounded as though Rosie was progressing well. Can you think of anything which might have started the resumption in vomiting?. I'm wondering whether the " nasties" in all dry food may have just started to affect her. Do you think that Royal Canin Sensitivity Control wet might be better than the dry food? I know that I don't particularly like the ingredients in it myself but I would imagine that it might be better for her than the dry.

I can understand your belief that excess acid might be the problem as that is exactly how I used to feel. How often do you feed Rosie.?. I have found that introducing 2 overnight feeds has completely stopped vomiting his breakfast. 1 feed made no difference but 2 feeds have worked wonders.

I also think that a low fat diet would help her. I have found that rabbit which is low in fat has definitely suited Dylan. Might something like that be worth discussing with your vet.?

I'll finish here as I suspect that this post might be " oversize ".

Love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie as well as respective slaves.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Pleased to read that Roman, Dylan & Blue are doing okay, hoping the same goes for Meeko & Riley.
> 
> Rosie has not been so good. She's started vomiting again (4 days out of the last 6) and has started to leave some of her food - so she seems to be going backwards despite having been on the z/d for over 4 weeks.
> 
> I'm pretty convinced that this is more a case of excess acid rather than any intolerance to a particular protein - but it is possible that in general she made need a low fat, low protein diet (whatever the protein source) in the near future, maybe with some antacid medication to help. I could be wrong of course.
> 
> I shall continue to finish the z/d six week trial, but there will be no point her sticking with it for the 3 months unless it is making more of a difference IMO. I shall be seeing the main vet soon so I'll let you know how that goes.


Something else has just occurred to me.

Dylan went off his food when his vomiting was at its most frequent. I was told by a vet that this is very common as they are associating the food which they are on with feeling unwell. I was told to offer something different. This is how we started with the rabbit . Perhaps Rosie would be better with a change of food sooner rather than later. In your position I think that I'd let my vet know that Rosie is vomiting more frequently again and see what they think. Each time I had a new food to try with Dylan I was told to report back if there was any rapid increase in vomiting as it would be indicating that the food didn't suit.

I really hope that you can find a food to suit her better soon.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Ohhh LDK1 . I'm so sorry to hear this. It had sounded as though Rosie was progressing well. Can you think of anything which might have started the resumption in vomiting?. I'm wondering whether the " nasties" in all dry food may have just started to affect her. Do you think that Royal Canin Sensitivity Control wet might be better than the dry food? I know that I don't particularly like the ingredients in it myself but I would imagine that it might be better for her than the dry.
> 
> I can understand your belief that excess acid might be the problem as that is exactly how I used to feel. How often do you feed Rosie.?. I have found that introducing 2 overnight feeds has completely stopped vomiting his breakfast. 1 feed made no difference but 2 feeds have worked wonders.
> 
> I also think that a low fat diet would help her. I have found that rabbit which is low in fat has definitely suited Dylan. Might something like that be worth discussing with your vet.?





Forester said:


> Something else has just occurred to me.
> 
> Dylan went off his food when his vomiting was at its most frequent. I was told by a vet that this is very common as they are associating the food which they are on with feeling unwell. I was told to offer something different. This is how we started with the rabbit . Perhaps Rosie would be better with a change of food sooner rather than later. In your position I think that I'd let my vet know that Rosie is vomiting more frequently again and see what they think. Each time I had a new food to try with Dylan I was told to report back if there was any rapid increase in vomiting as it would be indicating that the food didn't suit.
> 
> I really hope that you can find a food to suit her better soon.


Hi Forrester,

I wish I could chat more but my typing is very slow and I'm not particular articulate in this medium - hence I don't post much! 

Can't think of any changes to cause the vomiting. She gets one overnight feed at 3am and then at least four feeds during the day/evening.

I would dearly love give her a change of food as she looks so disappointed when I dish out wet food for Watson then present her with the dry - but two vets were very specific about sticking with the z/d for the trial. They were not at all keen when I suggested a novel protein approach - even if it was another prescription product.

I'm pretty sure that if I do things their way first (and it doesn't work), they will have no choice but to try other foods. The RC Sensitive Control is definitely on my list of options.

Where do you get your rabbit from? Is this given raw?

Thanks for your input and suggestions.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi Forrester,
> 
> I wish I could chat more but my typing is very slow and I'm not particular articulate in this medium - hence I don't post much!
> 
> Can't think of any changes to cause the vomiting. She gets one overnight feed at 3am and then at least four feeds during the day/evening.
> 
> I would dearly love give her a change of food as she looks so disappointed when I dish out wet food for Watson then present her with the dry - but two vets were very specific about sticking with the z/d for the trial. They were not at all keen when I suggested a novel protein approach - even if it was another prescription product.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that if I do things their way first (and it doesn't work), they will have no choice but to try other foods. The RC Sensitive Control is definitely on my list of options.
> 
> Where do you get your rabbit from? Is this given raw?
> 
> Thanks for your input and suggestions.


There's *absolutely nothing wrong*with your posts . You express yourself far better than I do. I'm always putting my foot in it because I can't find the way to express what I'm feeling and end up saying something completely different.

My vet reacted in exactly the same way to the suggestion of the novel protein approach. She told me that she wanted to use a hypoallergenic diet as she knew exactly how that would work whereas she had no experience with the novel protein foods I was suggesting. We did try 2 novel proteins with Dylan after I messed up the initial hypoallergenic trial. Both were an absolute disaster.. I desperately wish that I'd just followed the vets advice to the letter, (although in my defence I did misunderstand her) although I don't regret refusing to feed dry food.

I would imagine that your vet might re evaluate Rosie's diet trial as she is now vomiting much more. I understood that a food trial is normally only extended to 12 weeks if 6 weeks has brought about a partial improvement. I can't imagine that the vet would want to continue with something which has made Rosie worse.

The rabbit I feed is boiled ( and boiled and boiled ). I worry that it is not complete but my vet insists that its not too bad combined with 1 pouch of sensitivity control. I tried Dyl with raw rabbit many months ago but gave up as he started vomiting badly. The rabbits are obtained from local butchers ( they all know me as the rabbit woman :lol: ). They are ( were )wild and have been shot locally.

Much as I don't like the ingredients in the RCSC pouches they have certainly been a great help for Dylan . When he first went on them he went from vomiting 3 times in 2 days to once in 23 days!. They have become a little less effective but are still better than almost anything else. For some strange reason the only better food regime I've found is the RCSC/ rabbit combination.

I hope that this info is helpful to you. If you are reluctant to post on the general forum but would like more advice from the slave of a fellow vomiter , please feel free to PM or if you prefer I would be happy to send you my e-mail or phone no.

Sending ((( Hugs ))) to you and positive vibes to Rosie.


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with your posts . You express yourself far better than I do. *I'm always putting my foot in it because I can't find the way to express what I'm feeling and end up saying something completely different*.
> 
> We're not related, are we?   :lol:
> 
> My vet reacted in exactly the same way to the suggestion of the novel protein approach. She told me that she wanted to use a hypoallergenic diet as she knew exactly how that would work whereas she had no experience with the novel protein foods I was suggesting. We did try 2 novel proteins with Dylan after I messed up the initial hypoallergenic trial. Both were an absolute disaster.. I desperately wish that I'd just followed the vets advice to the letter, (although in my defence I did misunderstand her) although I don't regret refusing to feed dry food.
> 
> I would imagine that your vet might re evaluate Rosie's diet trial as she is now vomiting much more. I understood that a food trial is normally only extended to 12 weeks if 6 weeks has brought about a partial improvement. I can't imagine that the vet would want to continue with something which has made Rosie worse.
> 
> The rabbit I feed is boiled ( and boiled and boiled ). I worry that it is not complete but my vet insists that its not too bad combined with 1 pouch of sensitivity control. I tried Dyl with raw rabbit many months ago but gave up as he started vomiting badly. The rabbits are obtained from local butchers ( they all know me as the rabbit woman :lol: ). They are ( were )wild and have been shot locally.
> 
> Much as I don't like the ingredients in the RCSC pouches they have certainly been a great help for Dylan . When he first went on them he went from vomiting 3 times in 2 days to once in 23 days!. They have become a little less effective but are still better than almost anything else. For some strange reason the only better food regime I've found is the RCSC/ rabbit combination.
> 
> I hope that this info is helpful to you. If you are reluctant to post on the general forum but would like more advice from the slave of a fellow vomiter , please feel free to PM or if you prefer I would be happy to send you my e-mail or phone no.
> 
> Sending ((( Hugs ))) to you and positive vibes to Rosie.


Yes, it's very helpful, thank you. I do feel that Dylan's symptoms are the closest to Rosie's on this thread - though the causes may be different. Thanks ever so much for the offer of further advice and the vibes. 

I wonder what it is about the RCSC ingredients that's so different to other products?

Just one other question, were there any problems from Dylan's blood tests? Rosie had a high reading for Feline TLI (> 120), but the fPL result (1.0) was fine. The conclusion being that Pancreatitis was unlikely, though they couldn't rule it out. There were a couple of other high readings and one low one, but the vet said that everything was fine.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Yes, it's very helpful, thank you. I do feel that Dylan's symptoms are the closest to Rosie's on this thread - though the causes may be different. Thanks ever so much for the offer of further advice and the vibes.
> 
> I wonder what it is about the RCSC ingredients that's so different to other products?
> 
> Just one other question, were there any problems from Dylan's blood tests? Rosie had a high reading for Feline TLI (> 120), but the fPL result (1.0) was fine. The conclusion being that Pancreatitis was unlikely, though they couldn't rule it out. There were a couple of other high readings and one low one, but the vet said that everything was fine.


LDK1, I have no idea what it is in the RCSC which seems to make it so well tolerated. TBH I am amazed that its helped Dylan so much.Prior to consulting the vet last January I had only ever fed him on premium quality ( Omm Nom Nom, Granatapet etc ) grain free food as well as a little raw. I had thought that I was feeding him an ideal diet. I can't understand how he can tolerate the chicken in the RCSC when plain , oven cooked, without fat, organic chicken made him sick.

Dylan's blood results were all " completely normal ", his x rays were completely normal, visual on endoscopy was normal and his pinch biopsy results were .....yes , normal. no inflammatory cells were present   

My vet insists that she has rarely seen a cat who looks as well. She says that he's a " bit of a mystery ! ".

If you have any more questions about what we've tried, symptoms, anything, please don't hesitate to ask. Pooling information and experiences can only be beneficial. :thumbsup:


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Whoops, after commenting that the thread had gone quiet my internet decided to prevent me from posting until now.
> 
> I don't have any regrets about not having the full thickness biopsy. It sounded far too invasive and risky for my liking. The only time I could have contemplated something like that would be if his life were in imminent danger without it.
> 
> It certainly sounds as though you, your vets and Davies , ( with advice from Nicola  ) are finding a solution for Roman.:thumbup: Oh dear that sounds as though Davies were advised by Nicola :lol: but I'm sure that you know what I mean. Fingers crossed that he continues to improve. I'm sure that you have made all of the right decisions regarding his treatment.
> 
> What dosage of pred is Roman on at the moment?
> 
> Sorry but I had to laugh about your reaction to the ant . I hope that there are no more around  .
> 
> I agree that I don't want Dylan to be on the pred. long term however I need to prevent any long term inflammation which might turn to lymphoma. I understand that the reason that my vet doesn't want to reduce sooner is because of his long term history. It has taken us 10 months to get to this stage. I desperately hope that I haven't been premature in thinking that we now have the vomiting reasonably under control. He has been vomiting to a greater or lesser extent since I adopted him in March 13 but it was initially put down to him eating too quickly or too much. Each time I was about to take him to the vets he would improve for a while .
> 
> My vet says that it is extremely important that the pred is not reduced too early causing a relapse as that would put us back to where we were before starting the pred. . I have also read that reducing steroids too quickly is a common reason for failure to control IBD. I do now regret putting off trying the steroids for as long as I did but I really did want to avoid using them if possible.
> 
> Ohhh LDK1 . I'm so sorry to hear this. It had sounded as though Rosie was progressing well. Can you think of anything which might have started the resumption in vomiting?. I'm wondering whether the " nasties" in all dry food may have just started to affect her. Do you think that Royal Canin Sensitivity Control wet might be better than the dry food? I know that I don't particularly like the ingredients in it myself but I would imagine that it might be better for her than the dry.
> 
> I can understand your belief that excess acid might be the problem as that is exactly how I used to feel. How often do you feed Rosie.?. I have found that introducing 2 overnight feeds has completely stopped vomiting his breakfast. 1 feed made no difference but 2 feeds have worked wonders.
> 
> I also think that a low fat diet would help her. I have found that rabbit which is low in fat has definitely suited Dylan. Might something like that be worth discussing with your vet.?
> 
> I'll finish here as I suspect that this post might be " oversize ".
> 
> Love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie as well as respective slaves.


Which makes sense to continue the pred for sure, especially as its helping. Is there urine sticks you can get to test for diabetes. That way you could have some peace of mind..


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Whoops, after commenting that the thread had gone quiet my internet decided to prevent me from posting until now.
> 
> I don't have any regrets about not having the full thickness biopsy. It sounded far too invasive and risky for my liking. The only time I could have contemplated something like that would be if his life were in imminent danger without it.
> 
> It certainly sounds as though you, your vets and Davies , ( with advice from Nicola  ) are finding a solution for Roman.:thumbup: Oh dear that sounds as though Davies were advised by Nicola :lol: but I'm sure that you know what I mean. Fingers crossed that he continues to improve. I'm sure that you have made all of the right decisions regarding his treatment.
> 
> What dosage of pred is Roman on at the moment?
> 
> Sorry but I had to laugh about your reaction to the ant . I hope that there are no more around  .
> 
> I agree that I don't want Dylan to be on the pred. long term however I need to prevent any long term inflammation which might turn to lymphoma. I understand that the reason that my vet doesn't want to reduce sooner is because of his long term history. It has taken us 10 months to get to this stage. I desperately hope that I haven't been premature in thinking that we now have the vomiting reasonably under control. He has been vomiting to a greater or lesser extent since I adopted him in March 13 but it was initially put down to him eating too quickly or too much. Each time I was about to take him to the vets he would improve for a while .
> 
> My vet says that it is extremely important that the pred is not reduced too early causing a relapse as that would put us back to where we were before starting the pred. . I have also read that reducing steroids too quickly is a common reason for failure to control IBD. I do now regret putting off trying the steroids for as long as I did but I really did want to avoid using them if possible.
> 
> Ohhh LDK1 . I'm so sorry to hear this. It had sounded as though Rosie was progressing well. Can you think of anything which might have started the resumption in vomiting?. I'm wondering whether the " nasties" in all dry food may have just started to affect her. Do you think that Royal Canin Sensitivity Control wet might be better than the dry food? I know that I don't particularly like the ingredients in it myself but I would imagine that it might be better for her than the dry.
> 
> I can understand your belief that excess acid might be the problem as that is exactly how I used to feel. How often do you feed Rosie.?. I have found that introducing 2 overnight feeds has completely stopped vomiting his breakfast. 1 feed made no difference but 2 feeds have worked wonders.
> 
> I also think that a low fat diet would help her. I have found that rabbit which is low in fat has definitely suited Dylan. Might something like that be worth discussing with your vet.?
> 
> I'll finish here as I suspect that this post might be " oversize ".
> 
> Love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Rosie as well as respective slaves.


Glad you can post now Sylv 

I feel the same way as you about the full thickness biopsy. My vet actually scared the life out of me when he told me about the risks.

I think Nicola secretly works for Davies  

Roman has gone from 10mg a day to 5mg of the Pred, still on the chlorambucil every other day.

No more ants thankfully   I'm looking for them now every time I clean the tray.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Glad you can post now Sylv
> 
> I feel the same way as you about the full thickness biopsy. My vet actually scared the life out of me when he told me about the risks.
> 
> I think Nicola secretly works for Davies
> 
> Roman has gone from 10mg a day to 5mg of the Pred, still on the chlorambucil every other day.
> 
> No more ants thankfully   I'm looking for them now every time I clean the tray.


You wait til you get my bill :eek6: it's great to hear about Roman and how he is still ok!

Slyv, I've been thinking is it worth you asking your vet about also trying the cholarambucil? It's an imunesuppresnt like pred but with out the risk of diabetes.

I order bulk form vc as the more you do the better the discount you get and more bonus points!


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Which makes sense to continue the pred for sure, especially as its helping. Is there urine sticks you can get to test for diabetes. That way you could have some peace of mind..


Oooh that's a good idea, I'll look into it :thumbsup:. My vet hadn't seemed at all bothered about side effects of the pred. her only concerns seem to be that he doesn't go back to regular vomiting or that the pred dose doesn't give him dire rear again.

I haven't got a schedule to contact Kate ( vet ) again but will do some research into chlorambucil with a view to discussing this option with her. I tend to forget to mention things when I speak to her on the phone in contrast with my surgery consults. I will make some notes to keep by the phone to remind me.

Sarah. I was horrified when pros and cons of full thickness biopsy were discussed. No way was I going to put Dylan through that.

I think that Nicola probably has far more experience about the practicalities of dealing with a poorly IBD cat than some of these vets. Its a shame that she's not on Davies' payroll and so sad that it is Riley's misfortunes that we've all benefited from. 

Well done Roman, keep the progress going. 

I've just had a thought, Sarah. If you get any more ants perhaps Seb could remove them for you . Dylan would. We occaisionaly get woodlice come in near the back door and he will sit waiting in the hope of catching one. Perhaps he's trying to tell me ( again  ) that I'm not feeding him enough.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> You wait til you get my bill :eek6: it's great to hear about Roman and how he is still ok!
> 
> Slyv, I've been thinking is it worth you asking your vet about also trying the cholarambucil? It's an imunesuppresnt like pred but with out the risk of diabetes.
> 
> I order bulk form vc as the more you do the better the discount you get and more bonus points!





Forester said:


> Oooh that's a good idea, I'll look into it :thumbsup:. My vet hadn't seemed at all bothered about side effects of the pred. her only concerns seem to be that he doesn't go back to regular vomiting or that the pred dose doesn't give him dire rear again.
> 
> I haven't got a schedule to contact Kate ( vet ) again but will do some research into chlorambucil with a view to discussing this option with her. I tend to forget to mention things when I speak to her on the phone in contrast with my surgery consults. I will make some notes to keep by the phone to remind me.
> 
> Sarah. I was horrified when pros and cons of full thickness biopsy were discussed. No way was I going to put Dylan through that.
> 
> I think that Nicola probably has far more experience about the practicalities of dealing with a poorly IBD cat than some of these vets. Its a shame that she's not on Davies' payroll and so sad that it is Riley's misfortunes that we've all benefited from.
> 
> Well done Roman, keep the progress going.
> 
> I've just had a thought, Sarah. If you get any more ants perhaps Seb could remove them for you . Dylan would. We occaisionaly get woodlice come in near the back door and he will sit waiting in the hope of catching one. Perhaps he's trying to tell me ( again  ) that I'm not feeding him enough.


I think I deserve some discount  

Roman is so much happier   

How's Riley been?

I've read so many good things about chlorambucil and IBD, have a read up Sylv (we won't tell Buffie you're googling  ) I agree with Nicola something worth talking to you vet about.

Hopefully there won't be any more ants but I'll call Seb to my rescue next time  woodlice


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1, I have no idea what it is in the RCSC which seems to make it so well tolerated. TBH I am amazed that its helped Dylan so much.Prior to consulting the vet last January I had only ever fed him on premium quality ( Omm Nom Nom, Granatapet etc ) grain free food as well as a little raw. I had thought that I was feeding him an ideal diet. I can't understand how he can tolerate the chicken in the RCSC when plain , oven cooked, without fat, organic chicken made him sick.
> 
> Dylan's blood results were all " completely normal ", his x rays were completely normal, visual on endoscopy was normal and his pinch biopsy results were .....yes , normal. no inflammatory cells were present
> 
> My vet insists that she has rarely seen a cat who looks as well. She says that he's a " bit of a mystery ! ".
> 
> If you have any more questions about what we've tried, symptoms, anything, please don't hesitate to ask. Pooling information and experiences can only be beneficial. :thumbsup:


Re the chicken: this is why I'm not so sure that it's a particular protein that's the problem, e.g. Rosie is mainly only sick in the morning, like Dylan used to be. The fact that she can eat the same food with no problem just shortly after being sick, tells me that she has probably thrown up the excess acid/bile that was causing the nausea and so will no longer feel sick when she eats - this is my personal theory.

I too was only feeding the higher meat content products, e.g. Bozita & Grau, plus raw chicken breast scraps and chicken wings.

She was sick again this morning, but 15 minutes later she was asking me for food. I gave her the same food, which she ate with enthusiam, and she was not sick. This is why I don't see how it can be the food - and the z/d is not supposed to have a recognizable protein source. 

It will be very very interesting to see what happens with the RCSC, which I will suggest when I see the vet.

I do believe in Rosie's case there is an issue with food aggrevating the gut at certain times of the day (mainly the morning), that's for sure. Whether the food was the original cause of the excess acid production (the excess acid is still only my theory), or whether the excess acid is caused by something else, that's still to be determined in my mind.

Rosie, like Dylan, doesn't look ill. She has never lost weight, doesn't have dire rear and doesn't have any skin problems. We have done bloods, poo, x-ray and ultra-sound. My vet also thinks it's a 'mystery'. I don't - but I wish I had the brains to figure it out!

You say you feed twice a night now. At what times are they?

Cheers.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I've read so many good things about chlorambucil and IBD, have a read up Sylv (we won't tell Buffie you're googling  ) I agree with Nicola something worth talking to you vet about.


I've started googling , just make sure that you don't tell buffie :lol:



LDK1 said:


> Re the chicken: this is why I'm not so sure that it's a particular protein that's the problem, e.g. Rosie is mainly only sick in the morning, like Dylan used to be. The fact that she can eat the same food with no problem just shortly after being sick, tells me that she has probably thrown up the excess acid/bile that was causing the nausea and so will no longer feel sick when she eats - this is my personal theory.
> 
> I too was only feeding the higher meat content products, e.g. Bozita & Grau, plus raw chicken breast scraps and chicken wings.
> 
> She was sick again this morning, but 15 minutes later she was asking me for food. I gave her the same food, which she ate with enthusiam, and she was not sick. This is why I don't see how it can be the food - and the z/d is not supposed to have a recognizable protein source.
> 
> It will be very very interesting to see what happens with the RCSC, which I will suggest when I see the vet.
> 
> I do believe in Rosie's case there is an issue with food aggrevating the gut at certain times of the day (mainly the morning), that's for sure. Whether the food was the original cause of the excess acid production (the excess acid is still only my theory), or whether the excess acid is caused by something else, that's still to be determined in my mind.
> 
> Rosie, like Dylan, doesn't look ill. She has never lost weight, doesn't have dire rear and doesn't have any skin problems. We have done bloods, poo, x-ray and ultra-sound. My vet also thinks it's a 'mystery'. I don't - but I wish I had the brains to figure it out!
> 
> You say you feed twice a night now. At what times are they?
> 
> Cheers.


LDK1, Rosie and Dylan sound so similar. To read your descriptions I could almost believe that you're talking about Dylan. There are just so many similarities that it seems impossible that they're not suffering from exactly the same problem/s.

I always re feed Dylan about 15 minutes after he's been sick. I too believe that stomach acid must be playing a part so don't want him to go too long without food. Like Rosie he has *never *vomited the second helping.

Dylan too does not normally suffer from dire rear .The only times he has been runny have been a) many months ago when I tried him with some raw heart and b) when we tried a prednisolone dose of 5mg every day.

Dylan did have a severe tapeworm infestation when we adopted him at approx. 6 months old and I have often wondered whether this might have been causative of his problems.

Feeding times- This is where I have to admit to regularly going to bed early as I count a 11.30 pm feed as " overnight". Dyl is fed at 7am, 11.30am, 4pm, 8pm, 11.30 pm, and 3.30am. The spacings aren't uniform but its as close as I can do with my routine. I am lucky in that I recently finished work so can feed more or less at will. Everything I do has to fit around Dyl's feedtimes. He comes first.

I also can't see that Dylan's problem is with a specific food or feeds. He has ,at times ,reacted to absolutely every protein he has been given. I feel that fat levels, offal levels and processing levels are far more significant than protein type.

Hope this helps

Sending love and positive vibes to all.


----------



## Forester

Why do cats do their best to disprove anything that you've said about them  ?

Dylan was sick this morning after his 3.30am feed. The first time ever at night. I re-fed him 10 minutes later and that came back as well, again the first time that second helpings have come back. 

I have obviously not found the " magic " pred. dose.. I can't decide whether to ring the vets on Monday or to wait to see how long Dyl goes to next time. Dylan has also been unusually quiet today.

I hope that all others are faring better:- no vomiting from Rosie , Meeko or Blue, no substandard tray deposits from Riley , Roman or Blue. It would also be good if Meeko were eating buffie out of house and home and Nicola's curtains stay clean. 

love to all  Always look on the bright side.... ( you're all very lucky that you can't hear my singing .....its not very melodious Singing


----------



## buffie

Evening,thought I had better pop in and say hello,I have been reading even if I havnt been active on the thread lately

Looks like Roman is on the right road at last  ,
I'm assuming Riley is doing okay but looks like Dylan and Rosie are not fairing quite as well even Blue seems to be having off days.

Meeko is eating a bit better,still vomiting but otherwise seems happy enough.I did consider taking him back to see Scott the vet but there really isn't much he can do,its not as though he seems ill 

LDK1 Meeko is definitely a bit better while on antacids,he is on Famotidine.I did try stopping it a while back but he seemed to vomit more frequently.Like you I'm not convinced that food is the sole culprit in causing the vomiting.

Forester if you want to test Dylans urine for diabetes get these,its what I used when I had my diabetic cat..........Keto-Diastix Reagent Strips - Box of 50: Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Evening,thought I had better pop in and say hello,I have been reading even if I havnt been active on the thread lately
> 
> Looks like Roman is on the right road at last  ,
> I'm assuming Riley is doing okay but looks like Dylan and Rosie are not fairing quite as well even Blue seems to be having off days.
> 
> Meeko is eating a bit better,still vomiting but otherwise seems happy enough.I did consider taking him back to see Scott the vet but there really isn't much he can do,its not as though he seems ill
> 
> LDK1 Meeko is definitely a bit better while on antacids,he is on Famotidine.I did try stopping it a while back but he seemed to vomit more frequently.Like you I'm not convinced that food is the sole culprit in causing the vomiting.
> 
> Forester if you want to test Dylans urine for diabetes get these,its what I used when I had my diabetic cat..........Keto-Diastix Reagent Strips - Box of 50: Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care


Thanks buffie, I'll get some of those strips. I'm going to have to do some ( more ) googling though as I need to do some research on how to test him.

I'm really sorry to hear that Meeko is vomiting more again but pleased that his appetite has improved a little. Come on Meeko, I want to hear that you're eating buffie out of house and home.

I'm starting to wonder whether I've done the right thing in giving Dylan the boiled rabbit instead of 2 pouches of Sensitivity control. I initially thought that I'd supplement it with the Felini which Sarah so kindly sent me. My vet didn't want anything else added to Dyl's diet to complicate matters but I'm worrying that he's not getting enough taurine. I've just read that taurine helps to control blood sugar which is panicing me even more due to Dylan being on pred. Should I go back to feeding all Sensitivity control for the reassurance that he's getting enough taurine or stay with the rabbit which at least doesn't contain the undesirable ingredients in the SC. ?To make matters worse I've read that taurine supplements can cause vomiting. I've never been good at making decisions ( Pisces  ). Why does everything seem to get more complicated the more you look into it.?

Sending positive vibes to all IBD kitties and slaves.


----------



## nicolaa123

Firstly! Buffie you gave caused me untold grief with riley wanting his own facebook page!! Glad you are ok, we are ok too, good and bad days but the bad symptoms are staying at bay!

Slyv, don't over think things..easy for me to say I know and I have over thought myself! Some times they are just sick or wiping their bums on the curtains!!

I don't call it a set back / flare up unless it is every day for a week if less than that it is a blip! Personally I would say stay as you are, I'm not great at working out % of taurine per meal and the whole meal.

But, there is an active member satori who knows his numbers! I would drop him a pm stating what you feed and ask his opinion about the taurine % 

Riley is ok, we have had one blip this week  and he is eating a lot! Plus is being a pain in the bum winging he doesn't have a Facebook page


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Why do cats do their best to disprove anything that you've said about them  ?
> 
> Dylan was sick this morning after his 3.30am feed. The first time ever at night. I re-fed him 10 minutes later and that came back as well, again the first time that second helpings have come back.
> 
> I have obviously not found the " magic " pred. dose.. I can't decide whether to ring the vets on Monday or to wait to see how long Dyl goes to next time. Dylan has also been unusually quiet today.
> 
> I hope that all others are faring better:- no vomiting from Rosie , Meeko or Blue, no substandard tray deposits from Riley , Roman or Blue. It would also be good if Meeko were eating buffie out of house and home and Nicola's curtains stay clean.
> 
> love to all  Always look on the bright side.... ( you're all very lucky that you can't hear my singing .....its not very melodious Singing





buffie said:


> Evening,thought I had better pop in and say hello,I have been reading even if I havnt been active on the thread lately
> 
> Looks like Roman is on the right road at last  ,
> I'm assuming Riley is doing okay but looks like Dylan and Rosie are not fairing quite as well even Blue seems to be having off days.
> 
> Meeko is eating a bit better,still vomiting but otherwise seems happy enough.I did consider taking him back to see Scott the vet but there really isn't much he can do,its not as though he seems ill
> 
> LDK1 Meeko is definitely a bit better while on antacids,he is on Famotidine.I did try stopping it a while back but he seemed to vomit more frequently.Like you I'm not convinced that food is the sole culprit in causing the vomiting.
> 
> Forester if you want to test Dylans urine for diabetes get these,its what I used when I had my diabetic cat..........Keto-Diastix Reagent Strips - Box of 50: Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care





nicolaa123 said:


> Firstly! Buffie you gave caused me untold grief with riley wanting his own facebook page!! Glad you are ok, we are ok too, good and bad days but the bad symptoms are staying at bay!
> 
> Slyv, don't over think things..easy for me to say I know and I have over thought myself! Some times they are just sick or wiping their bums on the curtains!!
> 
> I don't call it a set back / flare up unless it is every day for a week if less than that it is a blip! Personally I would say stay as you are, I'm not great at working out % of taurine per meal and the whole meal.
> 
> But, there is an active member satori who knows his numbers! I would drop him a pm stating what you feed and ask his opinion about the taurine %
> 
> Riley is ok, we have had one blip this week  and he is eating a lot! Plus is being a pain in the bum winging he doesn't have a Facebook page


Morning all 

Wet, windy and cold here, that's the weather not the boys 

Sylv, I'm sorry to hear Dylan has been sick  fingers crossed it's just a one off or a blip  I agree about dropping a message to Satori, he is a nice guy and will give you the advice you need to know. And keep positive  

Buffie, welcome back to the thread  I'm sorry to hear Meeko has been vomiting  but glad to hear he's been eating more 

Is Meeko still having the Zylkene?

Nicola, glad Riley's only had one blip this week  think it may be the weather as Roman is eating a bit more  the boys have asked what this Facebook is, Seb asked if it's a code for Riley's next party! 

All still good here  though I did drop a tiny bit of Sheba on the floor Friday morning and Roman gobbled it up before I had a chance to pick it up  I was waiting for it, thankfully no issues from that 

And I did get up to some watery sick on the kitchen floor yesterday morning, I've no idea who the culprit was, but all boys seemed their usual selves.

Right off to have another coffee  enjoy your Sunday and hope it's a blip free one  xx xx


----------



## Forester

Its great to hear that Riley has only had one blip this week fingers crossed that coming weeks and months will be as good . 

A Facebook page !  If Riley gets one I'm going to have to review my policy of being " Facebook free". I'll have to join up to get a regular " fix" :001_wub: 

Dylan says that if there's a party he's happy to bring a rabbit for " nibbles" . He's not allowed alcohol so couldn't bring a bottle. 

I'll drop Satori a PM, What an excellent idea.:thumbup1: He's been a great help to me in the past  . I'm sure that he's the best person to consult on nutritional issues

I'm keeping positive . I think that we are " almost " there with Dyl's pred dose, just not quite.  I've been having a mooch around on the Yahoo IBD group but am finding it extremely difficult to follow. I have seen posts there about kitties being on 15mg pred daily short term and 10 mg long term so I don't suppose Dylan's average daily dosage of 3.75mg can be too damaging. I just want to be sure that I'm doing everything possible to protect him from any adverse effects.

I hope that this post finds everyone having a " blip free " day. Hoping that the cooling weather will help with Meeko's appetite , Roman, Riley and Blue's tray offerings and Rosie's " returns".

love to all IBD kitties and slaves


----------



## buffie

Forester it is easy to use the urine test strips,the difficult bit is getting the urine sample 
I gave up with the special litter and use a dog urine catcher (see pic) I just slip it under the bum when they are having a pee .
Once you have the fresh urine you just dip the test strip in and wait 30 seconds,the reading must be taken at exactly 30 seconds,if there is glucose in the urine it will react and the blue colour will change to a varying degree depending on glucose content.

.............

Sarah Meeko is still on the zylkene I have enough for another 4 weeks so will review as I go ,not sure whether to continu beyond that time or not.
I'm not too concerned about Meeko's vomiting as it is not any more frequent than it was so don't see it as an issue.


Hope everyone is well,I have a feeling Meeko&Riley will be plotting our demise on FB


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Its great to hear that Riley has only had one blip this week fingers crossed that coming weeks and months will be as good .
> 
> A Facebook page !  If Riley gets one I'm going to have to review my policy of being " Facebook free". I'll have to join up to get a regular " fix" :001_wub:
> 
> Dylan says that if there's a party he's happy to bring a rabbit for " nibbles" . He's not allowed alcohol so couldn't bring a bottle.
> 
> I'll drop Satori a PM, What an excellent idea.:thumbup1: He's been a great help to me in the past  . I'm sure that he's the best person to consult on nutritional issues
> 
> I'm keeping positive . I think that we are " almost " there with Dyl's pred dose, just not quite.  I've been having a mooch around on the Yahoo IBD group but am finding it extremely difficult to follow. I have seen posts there about kitties being on 15mg pred daily short term and 10 mg long term so I don't suppose Dylan's average daily dosage of 3.75mg can be too damaging. I just want to be sure that I'm doing everything possible to protect him from any adverse effects.
> 
> I hope that this post finds everyone having a " blip free " day. Hoping that the cooling weather will help with Meeko's appetite , Roman, Riley and Blue's tray offerings and Rosie's " returns".
> 
> love to all IBD kitties and slaves


Roman said he'll bring some skippy with him  Frank said there best be girls 

Glad you're keeping positive  

On the group, does anyone mention how long they class as long term? I found the asthma group more than difficult to follow, I got so lost I gave up  I've un-subscribed now but still being bombarded with emails 

Dylan's dose doesn't sound a lot, what is the highest dose he's been on? Roman's is 10mg the longest was for 2 weeks, this reduced dose of 5mg is for a month.

Roman is still o k 

Hope everyone is going o k. Nicola, have you got any new hoglets due to join fat camp? 

xx


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Forester it is easy to use the urine test strips,the difficult bit is getting the urine sample
> I gave up with the special litter and use a dog urine catcher (see pic) I just slip it under the bum when they are having a pee .
> Once you have the fresh urine you just dip the test strip in and wait 30 seconds,the reading must be taken at exactly 30 seconds,if there is glucose in the urine it will react and the blue colour will change to a varying degree depending on glucose content.
> 
> .............
> 
> Sarah Meeko is still on the zylkene I have enough for another 4 weeks so will review as I go ,not sure whether to continu beyond that time or not.
> I'm not too concerned about Meeko's vomiting as it is not any more frequent than it was so don't see it as an issue.
> 
> Hope everyone is well,I have a feeling Meeko&Riley will be plotting our demise on FB


I'd see how he goes in the next few weeks.

I thought that was a ice lolly until I zoomed in on the pic


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> I'd see how he goes in the next few weeks.
> 
> *I thought that was a ice lolly until I zoomed in on the pic *


:arf: :arf: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Forester it is easy to use the urine test strips,the difficult bit is getting the urine sample
> I gave up with the special litter and use a dog urine catcher (see pic) I just slip it under the bum when they are having a pee .
> Once you have the fresh urine you just dip the test strip in and wait 30 seconds,the reading must be taken at exactly 30 seconds,if there is glucose in the urine it will react and the blue colour will change to a varying degree depending on glucose content.
> 
> .............


Thanks for the tips and instructions, buffie. I can see that I'm going to be having fun. 
Sarah, you are not alone. I thought, at first, that the urine catcher looked like an ice lolly as well.:lol:



sarahecp said:


> On the group, does anyone mention how long they class as long term? I found the asthma group more than difficult to follow, I got so lost I gave up  I've un-subscribed now but still being bombarded with emails
> 
> Dylan's dose doesn't sound a lot, what is the highest dose he's been on? Roman's is 10mg the longest was for 2 weeks, this reduced dose of 5mg is for a month.


I've seen mentions of a pred dosage being used for 2 years 
 but I can't remember what level that was. There was a reference to a dose of 20mg for 2 weeks which also horrified me.

I find the topics really difficult to navigate. I've just been dipping in by trying to find a conversation which looks interesting and then trying to sort the messages into order.

Dylan started on 2.5mg daily for 4 weeks( vet wanted to increase to 5mg after 2 weeks but I resisted. I couldn't see the point when he hadn't been sick during the 2 weeks.) We went to 5mg for 2 weeks but that gave him dire rear . For the last 3 weeks we have alternated daily between the 5mg and 2.5mg dose. Its almost doing the job but not quite. My vet did say that she thought that he might not ever be able to come off completely. Once he's stable I'm certainly going to try to wean him off if at all possible.

love and positive vibes to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks for the tips and instructions, buffie. I can see that I'm going to be having fun.
> Sarah, you are not alone. I thought, at first, that the urine catcher looked like an ice lolly as well.:lol:
> 
> I've seen mentions of a pred dosage being used for 2 years
> but I can't remember what level that was. There was a reference to a dose of 20mg for 2 weeks which also horrified me.
> 
> I find the topics really difficult to navigate. I've just been dipping in by trying to find a conversation which looks interesting and then trying to sort the messages into order.
> 
> Dylan started on 2.5mg daily for 4 weeks( vet wanted to increase to 5mg after 2 weeks but I resisted. I couldn't see the point when he hadn't been sick during the 2 weeks.) We went to 5mg for 2 weeks but that gave him dire rear . For the last 3 weeks we have alternated daily between the 5mg and 2.5mg dose. Its almost doing the job but not quite. My vet did say that she thought that he might not ever be able to come off completely. Once he's stable I'm certainly going to try to wean him off if at all possible.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all


2 years  long term to me would be something like 6 months and 20mg  I thought 10mg was high. When I first signed up to the asthma group I thought it was going to be like a forum, the format of all the email threads was so  

I'm hoping that when I next speak to Patricia we'll be reducing the Pred but also depending on how things are going. I defiantly think Roman will now have to start his vaccinations again, he was due his first booster in September but because of the Pred he couldn't have it and we would need to wait 2 weeks after coming off the Pred before he can have it, at this stage I've no idea when that will be.

I really fancy an orange ice lolly now


----------



## nicolaa123

Ha ha I thought it was an ice lolly too!

Oh and riley does now have his own facebook, however it's cats only apparently  

We have had another ok day :thumbup1:

No hogs in fat camp currently, tho I'm sure I will have an over winter guest!


----------



## buffie

I will never eat an ice lolly ever again


----------



## bluecordelia

How lucky am i. Blue wees in an empty tray so I can carry on with my cider apple lollies.

Hope Rosie is feeling better. 

First time i used Fellini I put it in while boiling chicken...
The whole batch was rejected by both cats. I now put it in after cooking and its accepted. Hope this helps. 

Blue has been ok...lots of furry presents in the porch and no poo nasties or voms. I think she might have had fur balls brewing as I read somewhere about a link with this and gut issues. I have stopped reading online as I convinced myself she would develop bowel ca. I have a really pessimistic outlook sometimes.

Love to all the gang. 
Are our lot better in cooler weather...just an observation x


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> How lucky am i. Blue wees in an empty tray so I can carry on with my cider apple lollies.
> 
> Hope Rosie is feeling better.
> 
> First time i used Fellini I put it in while boiling chicken...
> The whole batch was rejected by both cats. I now put it in after cooking and its accepted. Hope this helps.
> 
> Blue has been ok...lots of furry presents in the porch and no poo nasties or voms. I think she might have had fur balls brewing as I read somewhere about a link with this and gut issues. I have stopped reading online as I convinced myself she would develop bowel ca. I have a really pessimistic outlook sometimes.
> 
> Love to all the gang.
> Are our lot better in cooler weather...just an observation x


Pleased to hear Blue has been ok  I think I'd rather have the furry presents in the porch than runny presents in the tray  

I've stopped googling otherwise I'll be scaring and worrying myself into an early grave and only read up on things I want more info on.

Roman is still doing o k  though he's not eaten much today, apart from that still been his usual self.

Hope everyone else is doing o k xx


----------



## bluecordelia

sarahecp said:


> Pleased to hear Blue has been ok  I think I'd rather have the furry presents in the porch than runny presents in the tray
> 
> I've stopped googling otherwise I'll be scaring and worrying myself into an early grave and only read up on things I want more info on.
> 
> Roman is still doing o k  though he's not eaten much today, apart from that still been his usual self.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing o k xx


Glad Romans having an ok time. Both mine are in lounging after a big tea with hot water added. 2 more furries in the porch tonight....blue is one mean son of a gun in mouseland.

Wrap up well x


----------



## Forester

Its good to read that Blue and Roman are both doing well. . Hopefully it will extend to Meeko, Riley and Rosie.

Dylan would also like to check in as O K. for today  Little does he realise the fun we will have when I get my own ice lolly mould.:lol:


----------



## VeeVee

The red line on my cats gums is still showing and quite pronounced on Alfie. 

I've been rubbish with the logic gel and the vet has now recommended dentisept. I'm going to start today for two weeks and check how they go. They're quite easy to handle (apart from the running away when they see the tube) so fingers crossed I can stick to the regime. The vet also recommended Hills T/D, He was fine when I said I wasn't keen on it but I might try if poor results with dentisept. 

I feed the boys german tin food and raw chicken wings once a week.


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all 

Forum been playing up since yesterday morning, every time I did get on I got an error message and since being able to post it's been sooooo slow 

All still ok here  Frank is eating me out of house and home but will no longer eat the skippy  Seb is enjoying it as much as Roman which surprises me  Roman is eating a bit more than he has been, think it might be the drop in temperature. 

Hope everyone is doing ok xx

Have you made any ice lollies yet Sylv?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> Forum been playing up since yesterday morning, every time I did get on I got an error message and since being able to post it's been sooooo slow
> 
> All still ok here  Frank is eating me out of house and home but will no longer eat the skippy  Seb is enjoying it as much as Roman which surprises me  Roman is eating a bit more than he has been, think it might be the drop in temperature.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing ok xx
> 
> Have you made any ice lollies yet Sylv?


No ice lollies yet , Sarah 

I'm glad that Roman's appetite has improved. I trust that his tray offerings are still up to standard 

Dylan is o k :thumbsup: He's been looking after me for the last couple of days as I've had a "bug". O H is a bit put out. He's had the bug too but Dylan has ignored him and not strayed from my side. That's my boy 

Sending love and positive vibes to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves.


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> First time i used Fellini I put it in while boiling chicken...
> The whole batch was rejected by both cats. I now put it in after cooking and its accepted. Hope this helps.


Thanks bc :thumbup: I'll take that into account.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> No ice lollies yet , Sarah
> 
> I'm glad that Roman's appetite has improved. I trust that his tray offerings are still up to standard
> 
> Dylan is o k :thumbsup: He's been looking after me for the last couple of days as I've had a "bug". O H is a bit put out. He's had the bug too but Dylan has ignored him and not strayed from my side. That's my boy
> 
> Sending love and positive vibes to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves.


Roman's tray offerings are still good 

Pleased to hear Dylan is still doing ok  

Sorry to hear you and OH have had a bug  hope you're on the mend now. Bless Dylan your little feline nurse  they do know when there's something wrong or when we're poorly.

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all doing ok xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry not been about, I'm decorating at the moment and that's taking up a lot of time!!

Hope all are ok and have been with the fireworks, Riley has been ok, but the big banging ones last night he didn't like at all, poor boy. He is also scared of meal worms!!


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry not been about, *I'm decorating at the moment and that's taking up a lot of time!!*
> 
> Hope all are ok and have been with the fireworks, Riley has been ok, but the big banging ones last night he didn't like at all, poor boy. He is also scared of meal worms!!


Me too, or at least trying to Hairy helpers make the job take much longer 

Meeko's much the same as before , but seems happy enough.
His Famotidine is about to run out so will need to make an appt. to see the vet for next lot,cant believe it is nearly 7 months since he was there , must be some sort of record for him .
Good to read that Riley is still doing okay,but how the hell did you discover he doesn't like meal worms  

Hope all other fellow sufferers and slaves are doing okay too.

Hope Dylan,


----------



## nicolaa123

Ah, I bought some live ones to take to the hospital and they were on the side and you know what cats are like..so he went up to them and they started moving in their little tubs and they are surprisingly loud  and he ran off!


Guess who is big released .....foxy now 672g so on her way, which is fab she is going now, still mild here so a soft release then gone! Good luck big girl


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Ah, I bought some live ones to take to the hospital and they were on the side and you know what cats are like..*so he went up to them and they started moving in their little tubs and they are surprisingly loud  and he ran off!*
> 
> Guess who is big released .....foxy now 672g so on her way, which is fab she is going now, still mild here so a soft release then gone! Good luck big girl


What a wimp 

Oh good luck Foxy ,hope you have a long and happy life :thumbup:


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry not been about, I'm decorating at the moment and that's taking up a lot of time!!
> 
> Hope all are ok and have been with the fireworks, Riley has been ok, but the big banging ones last night he didn't like at all, poor boy. He is also scared of meal worms!!


Cats and decorating  

Glad Riley is doing ok 

Fireworks have been driving me nuts  the boys have been ok but Seb was a little on edge one night so got in the wardrobe and went to sleep 



buffie said:


> Me too, or at least trying to Hairy helpers make the job take much longer
> 
> Meeko's much the same as before , but seems happy enough.
> His Famotidine is about to run out so will need to make an appt. to see the vet for next lot,cant believe it is nearly 7 months since he was there , must be some sort of record for him .
> Good to read that Riley is still doing okay,but how the hell did you discover he doesn't like meal worms
> 
> Hope all other fellow sufferers and slaves are doing okay too.
> 
> Hope Dylan,


Glad to hear Meeko is fine and happy  

Let us know how he gets on when you go for your appointment.

Roman is still doing ok 



nicolaa123 said:


> Ah, I bought some live ones to take to the hospital and they were on the side and you know what cats are like..so he went up to them and they started moving in their little tubs and they are surprisingly loud  and he ran off!
> 
> Guess who is big released .....foxy now 672g so on her way, which is fab she is going now, still mild here so a soft release then gone! Good luck big girl


:lol: poor Riley 

That's fantastic news on Foxy :thumbup: good luck spikey lady xx


----------



## Forester

[



sarahecp said:


> Cats and decorating
> 
> Glad Riley is doing ok
> 
> Fireworks have been driving me nuts  the boys have been ok but Seb was a little on edge one night so got in the wardrobe and went to sleep
> 
> Glad to hear Meeko is fine and happy
> 
> Let us know how he gets on when you go for your appointment.
> 
> Roman is still doing ok
> 
> :lol: poor Riley
> 
> That's fantastic news on Foxy :thumbup: good luck spikey lady xx


Well done Roman, keep it up .

Poor Seb  At least he knew that the wardrobe was safe. If he gets worried next year you could always send him down to stay with Dylan. Its usually pretty quiet round here and I can never resist a ginger visitor.



nicolaa123 said:


> Ah, I bought some live ones to take to the hospital and they were on the side and you know what cats are like..so he went up to them and they started moving in their little tubs and they are surprisingly loud  and he ran off!
> 
> Guess who is big released .....foxy now 672g so on her way, which is fab she is going now, still mild here so a soft release then gone! Good luck big girl


I don't blame Riley at all. Why take chances? How does he know that they're not going to attack him ?

Fantastic news about Foxy . Go girl ,and have a safe journey.



buffie said:


> Me too, or at least trying to Hairy helpers make the job take much longer
> 
> Meeko's much the same as before , but seems happy enough.
> His Famotidine is about to run out so will need to make an appt. to see the vet for next lot,cant believe it is nearly 7 months since he was there , must be some sort of record for him .
> Good to read that Riley is still doing okay,but how the hell did you discover he doesn't like meal worms
> 
> Hope all other fellow sufferers and slaves are doing okay too.
> 
> Hope Dylan,


Good to hear that Meeko is stable and happy . Seven months without a vet visit for an IBD furbie has to be pretty good going. I ,too, would be interested in what the vet says.

Dyl was sick again this morning though it may have been because I overslept and fed him late. I need to order more pred this week so intend to have another chat to the vet. I'm still weighing up what to do about the rabbit/RCSC.

love to all


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> [
> 
> Well done Roman, keep it up .
> 
> Poor Seb  At least he knew that the wardrobe was safe. If he gets worried next year you could always send him down to stay with Dylan. Its usually pretty quiet round here and I can never resist a ginger visitor.
> 
> I don't blame Riley at all. Why take chances? How does he know that they're not going to attack him ?
> 
> Fantastic news about Foxy . Go girl ,and have a safe journey.
> 
> Good to hear that Meeko is stable and happy . Seven months without a vet visit for an IBD furbie has to be pretty good going. I ,too, would be interested in what the vet says.
> 
> Dyl was sick again this morning though it may have been because I overslept and fed him late. I need to order more pred this week so intend to have another chat to the vet. I'm still weighing up what to do about the rabbit/RCSC.
> 
> love to all


Sorry to read that Dylan has been sick again  ,try not to worry about it.
I have decided not to worry about Meeko being sick unless the frequency increases or he starts to seem upset by it.
My vet's not worried about him vomiting unless he starts to lose weight or it becomes more frequent,as we cant seem to completely sort his diet out I reckon he is always going to have "returns".
He is booked in for next Monday at 2:10 pm they were infact happy to give me another 3 months supply of Famotidine without a visit but I would rather have him checked for my peace of mind .Will let you know how we go.

Hope everyone else is doing okay


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Sorry to read that Dylan has been sick again  ,try not to worry about it.
> I have decided not to worry about Meeko being sick unless the frequency increases or he starts to seem upset by it.
> My vet's not worried about him vomiting unless he starts to lose weight or it becomes more frequent,as we cant seem to completely sort his diet out I reckon he is always going to have "returns".
> He is booked in for next Monday at 2:10 pm they were infact happy to give me another 3 months supply of Famotidine without a visit but I would rather have him checked for my peace of mind .Will let you know how we go.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing okay


I'm not worrying . I just don't want Dylan to be spending more time taking a pred. dose which is only partially controlling his symptoms. I'd like him to be on it for as short a period as possible . As you know, I'm worried about the side effects. I need to have a further discussion with my vet as to how many "incidents" can be disregarded. There are obviously always going to be *some * incidents. I *do *feel that we are making progress.. He used to have a pattern of good periods interspersed with clusters of vomits whereas now the good periods are longer and are only interrupted by isolated " returns".

Its great news that your vets weren't concerned about seeing Meeko to check him. I'm sure that they will be pleased to see His Magnificence.  I doubt that they see many cats who are quite that handsome. 

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I'm not worrying . I just don't want Dylan to be spending more time taking a pred. dose which is only partially controlling his symptoms. I'd like him to be on it for as short a period as possible . As you know, I'm worried about the side effects. I need to have a further discussion with my vet as to how many "incidents" can be disregarded. There are obviously always going to be *some * incidents. I *do *feel that we are making progress.. He used to have a pattern of good periods interspersed with clusters of vomits whereas now the good periods are longer and are only interrupted by isolated " returns".
> 
> Its great news that your vets weren't concerned about seeing Meeko to check him. I'm sure that they will be pleased to see His Magnificence.  I doubt that they see many cats who are quite that handsome.
> 
> love to all masters, mistresses and slaves


I'm sure Scott , Meeko's vet will be happy to see him,as soon as he is in the surgery and out of his carrier Meeko is rolling around on his back on the floor being a total tart 

The pred didn't have any effect on Meeko's vomiting so he has never had any long periods on it.
I wouldn't be too happy about using it for any length of time I have to be honest.Unless it was stopping the vomiting totally I would be wanting to wean him off slowly to see what happens,but that is just my uneducated opinion,not a drug I would want to use for long periods esp with a young cat.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> I'm sure Scott , Meeko's vet will be happy to see him,as soon as he is in the surgery and out of his carrier Meeko is rolling around on his back on the floor being a total tart
> 
> The pred didn't have any effect on Meeko's vomiting so he has never had any long periods on it.
> I wouldn't be too happy about using it for any length of time I have to be honest.Unless it was stopping the vomiting totally I would be wanting to wean him off slowly to see what happens,but that is just my uneducated opinion,not a drug I would want to use for long periods esp with a young cat.


Dyl gives the same roll over movement when he gets on the vet's table. She has to scratch his chest before he will stand up.

I don't like the pred. but it has helped. Without consulting my diary I think that its reduced the average frequency of vomits to about 1/2 or 1/3 the pre pred level. 5mg per day did seem to eliminate the vomiting but unfortunately it seemed to cause dire rear. I believe that his dose is quite low. I saw a recommendation on a US forum recently of 10mg for 2-3 months , reduced to 5mg for 2-3 months then 2.5mg for 2-3 months.

Oh, I've had a quick reply from Satori to my question about the completeness of Dyls current diet. He doesn't think that its too bad at all but has offered several suggestions as to how I can improve it. :thumbup1:


----------



## sarahecp

I can't seem to be able to quote again 

Sorry to hear Dylan has been sick, hopefully it's just a blip. 

Glad Satori has given you some advice and options  

Sounds like both Meeko and Dylan are tarts when they go to the vets  Roman is just a nosey so and so, has to explore the surgery oh and must look out the window before our vet can begin  

I'm hoping Patricia will reduce Roman's Pred when I update her in 2 weeks, he's now been on it for 2 months. 

All still ok here  

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

Evening All  ( note upbeat tone  )

I hope that all the " regulars" are o k today, with no-one giving any cause for concern. 

Dylan had another " blip" this morning so I decided to visit the vets to discuss his pred. dose rather than ringing up again. I dutifully did my " colouring" onto a 2014 planner to illustrate our progress ( or lack of  ) over the last 10 months. The period since the pred. started , particularly when he was on the 5mg dose, *did * stand out as being a considerable improvement on the previous few months . However, the recent " improved " period is actually no different to how he was when I first took him to the vets last January.

I had expected to return with more pred. and maybe another attempt at a 5mg dose ( the last attempt gave him dire rear for the duration) however we're going to wean him off to see what happens. If there is no worsening of symptoms when he comes off we will try other dietary changes e g low fat. The vet made her customary suggestion of exploratory surgery  which was ,as always, declined. I was surprised at Kate's( vet) enthusiasm when I suggested whether a low fat , or some other type of diet might be worth trying. It seems that they've started stocking Hills food instead of the previous Royal Canin. It seems that they have a selection of possible diets which might suit Dylan though the Hills foods weren't actually the ones I was suggesting we try. 

Its odd, we could well be about to get a worsening of symptoms yet I feel on a high. I've never wanted Dyl to be on steroids but I'm amazed at how much more positive I feel at the idea of taking him off them and trying a different approach ( again ).

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves 

Oh buffie, Dylan lay on the scales with his legs in the air. 5.48kg  I'm sure that Meeko will behave with a little more decorum on *his * vet visit


----------



## sarahecp

That's great news Sylv   I'm so happy that you're happy and feeling positive   it's good that you are prepared if Dylan's symptoms do worsen but they might not, I'm keeping everything crossed that they don't. 

I would have declined too about the the exploratory surgery as you know my feelings on that. 

How are you doing the weaning off process?

Dylan with his legs in the air :lol: :lol: 

Roman is still doing ok ish, there was a tiny bit of soft poo at the end of his firm one this morning, but I'm not going to think too much about that but still noted it in the diary. I've booked him in for another blood test, we're going next Monday morning. 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are doing ok xx


----------



## nicolaa123

I think it's well worth both of you reducing the pred, for Dylan to see what happens to the symptoms, am pleased also satori has replied to you, he does know his stuff! Did you try the vc rabbit btw? If it worsens with out the pred I would be inclined to ask about the cholrambucil as an option if the meds are needed long term..

I doubt you will see any difference with Roman..the pred on its own did not help the symptoms, I will be interested in what they try with the cholrambucil, with riley he us on it for life as we can't risk another major flare up and it not working again 

He is still ok, runny bum once every 8-10 days..but that's fine!!


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> That's great news Sylv   I'm so happy that you're happy and feeling positive   it's good that you are prepared if Dylan's symptoms do worsen but they might not, I'm keeping everything crossed that they don't.
> 
> I would have declined too about the the exploratory surgery as you know my feelings on that.
> 
> How are you doing the weaning off process?
> 
> Dylan with his legs in the air :lol: :lol:
> 
> Roman is still doing ok ish, there was a tiny bit of soft poo at the end of his firm one this morning, but I'm not going to think too much about that but still noted it in the diary. I've booked him in for another blood test, we're going next Monday morning.
> 
> Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are doing ok xx


I *know *that I have a wide grin on my face. I suppose that I should brace myself for a deterioration but I'm viewing it as the worry of Dyl developing diabetes fading into the background, though ice lollies are never going to have the same attraction again. :lol::lol: As Kate said " we can easily put him back on it again, if necessary ".

I have 10 tablets left so he's going to have 2.5mg daily for 8 days then 2.5 mg every other day.

Dyl laid on his back on the scales with a very smug look on his face. He couldn't have been listening to me telling Kate that he's become very lazy since being on the pred.

Try not to worry about the small soft piece in Roman's poo today. Its only a one-off. Try to think of how much progress you have made.. I'm sure that Roman's blood test will be just fine. Look at it as being just for " insurance" purposes.

love to all


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I think it's well worth both of you reducing the pred, for Dylan to see what happens to the symptoms, am pleased also satori has replied to you, he does know his stuff! Did you try the vc rabbit btw? If it worsens with out the pred I would be inclined to ask about the cholrambucil as an option if the meds are needed long term..
> 
> I doubt you will see any difference with Roman..the pred on its own did not help the symptoms, I will be interested in what they try with the cholrambucil, with riley he us on it for life as we can't risk another major flare up and it not working again
> 
> He is still ok, runny bum once every 8-10 days..but that's fine!!


Yes Satori was a great help, and most reassuring. He has also come up with a suggestion as to why Dyl might be better with the chicken SC than he is with any other chicken product - could be the FOS in the SC. He too, thought that chicken would not be the problem that it is when Dyl is o k ish with the chicken SC. I explained that unfortunately logic does not seem to come into it.

I haven't tried VC rabbit. I have a can of goat which Riley very kindly donated for Dylan but I haven't tried it as we have had, and still have ,a policy of only one change at a time. We have tried raw rabbit though - that was not too successful so was abandoned   

We are hopeful of going back to trying dietary manipulation in preference to meds. We can always come back to meds again if necessary.

Riley sounds to be doing pretty well if he's going 8 to 10 days between incidents. Looks like you've got things under control again. Fingers and everything else crossed for no relapses.

As an aside, has Foxy gone off on life's great journey yet ?.It must be quite bittersweet to see them leave. I think that I would cry. I'd be like a mum whose child started school.


----------



## buffie

Lots to try to keep up with 
Sylv great news about the pred,hopefully Dylan will be no worse once weaned off it , No point in me commenting on diet,I gave up trying to work out any plans with Meeko so have no idea what is good/bad/indifferent,I will leave that to the experts.
Had a chuckle at the mental pic of Dylan lying on the scales with legs in the air,Meeko for sure wont be doing that ,getting all 4 feet on at the one time is a challenge 

Sarah ,Meeko sometimes has a bit of soft poo right at the end so I wouldn't think too much of it. Hope all goes well with his blood tests on Monday,Meeko is at the vets in the afternoon so we can swap notes 

Nicola glad to read that Riley is still doing "okay"


----------



## LDK1

Hi All,

Thought I'd just check in - although not posting, I'm still popping in to read how everyone is doing. 

Well, Rosie's 6 weeks on z/d dry is over, and although there was some improvement, she was still being sick every few days - so in my opinion not good enough to keep her on it exclusively. One thing though, her poos are nowhere near as smelly as they used to be, so I think the z/d has had some positive effect.

On reading Forrester's good progress with the RCSC, I decided to just buy some pouches and try it out - without discussing it with the vet first.  :hand:. If Rosie had been otherwise unwell (excluding the morning vomiting), or on medication, I would have had a consultation first.

It's only been a few days, but so far so good. I must say I'm very very impressed with this product in terms of palatability - it seems like they've put a good deal of thought into the texture, smell and moisture content. I am so happy to be giving her wet food again and she loves it too! I just hope that her vomiting doesn't increase over time. If she does well on it, I will use this product for a 3 month trial - I will keep you updated.

Forrester, what is this 'FOS' that Satori mentioned? Thanks.

Best wishes to all kitties and slaves.


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thought I'd just check in - although not posting, I'm still popping in to read how everyone is doing.
> 
> Well, Rosie's 6 weeks on z/d dry is over, and although there was some improvement, she was still being sick every few days - so in my opinion not good enough to keep her on it exclusively. One thing though, her poos are nowhere near as smelly as they used to be, so I think the z/d has had some positive effect.
> 
> On reading Forrester's good progress with the RCSC, I decided to just buy some pouches and try it out - without discussing it with the vet first.  :hand:. If Rosie had been otherwise unwell (excluding the morning vomiting), or on medication, I would have had a consultation first.
> 
> It's only been a few days, but so far so good. I must say I'm very very impressed with this product in terms of palatability - it seems like they've put a good deal of thought into the texture, smell and moisture content. I am so happy to be giving her wet food again and she loves it too! I just hope that her vomiting doesn't increase over time. If she does well on it, I will use this product for a 3 month trial - I will keep you updated.
> 
> Forrester, what is this 'FOS' that Satori mentioned? Thanks.
> 
> Best wishes to all kitties and slaves.


Hi LDK1. I'm so glad that you've popped in . I was only thinking about you and Rosie earlier this afternoon and wondering how things were going.

Its great news that the z/d has been of some help  if not all that you would have hoped for. I'm pleased that you're giving the SC pouches a try and that Rosie likes them. They have been , and still are the best complete food that I have found for preventing Dylan's vomiting. When he started them he went 23 days, an all time record for him, without vomiting. It would be brilliant if this food could help Rosie.

FOS is fructo oligosaccharides ( I hope that I have the spelling correct ). I believe that it is in the form of beet pulp and serves to " feed" the good bacteria in the gut. If Rosie's poo has been smelly it sounds as though the FOS could be beneficial for her. I do hope so.

I'm trying to look at Dylan's vomiting from a different angle to that which my vet has taken. I've been researching Slippery Elm Bark, article here Slippery Elm | Little Big Cat. I've started another thread to try to gather any forum members' experiences of this. I've bought some from my local health store .I plan on trying this once I have established a " base-line" of how Dylan is once he is fully off the steroids and his system has settled a little. If this goes well , it might be worth trying for Rosie.

I confess that I'm intending to try the Slippery Elm as well as a low fat/ low offal diet with Dyl without going to the vet. She has agreed that she thinks that a low fat diet is well worth trying but I'm not keen on the diets she has suggested ( Hills). I will obviously keep everyone updated on any progress, or not. Dylan and Rosie, in particular, and to a lesser extent Meeko ,sound so similar that any success with one could well be worth trying for the others.

Hoping that everyone is o k 

Sending healing and positive vibes to all


----------



## nicolaa123

I spoke to soon, riley got to my marmite on rice cakes, and wwe have had two days of hell..seems ok tonight tho, thank fully


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all, 

LDK1, pleased Rosie is liking the RCSC wet  keeping everything crossed it helps her more than the dry. 

Sylv, how's Dylan been since reducing the Pred? 

Buffie, I hope Mr M is behaving himself  

Nicola, sorry you've had a couple of days of hell  naughty Riley stealing your rice cakes, glad he's ok tonight. 

Not heard from BC in a while, hope Blue is still doing ok. 


Roman is still ok  being at home I've noticed he's been a bit more sleepier the last couple of days, could be the weather, it has turned quite cold here  and Frank and Seb have been staying in more. 

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Evening all,
> 
> LDK1, pleased Rosie is liking the RCSC wet  keeping everything crossed it helps her more than the dry.
> 
> Sylv, how's Dylan been since reducing the Pred?
> 
> Buffie, I hope Mr M is behaving himself
> 
> Nicola, sorry you've had a couple of days of hell  naughty Riley stealing your rice cakes, glad he's ok tonight.
> 
> Not heard from BC in a while, hope Blue is still doing ok.
> 
> Roman is still ok  being at home I've noticed he's been a bit more sleepier the last couple of days, could be the weather, it has turned quite cold here  and Frank and Seb have been staying in more.
> 
> xx


Can I second everything said , so beautifully, by Sarah in this post. Call me a lazy s*d for not writing my own post but Sarah puts it better than I do.

Glad that Roman's still o k . Hopefully no more " soft endings" to his tray offerings.

Dyl was sick at 4am again this morning. I'm starting to wonder whether I've messed up the clock on my autofeeder by turning the dials the wrong way :nono:. He's still on 2.5 mg pred. daily but I think is brighter than he was when I was alternating the 2.5 and 5mg dose. He was certainly lively this morning when he discovered that it is fun to run up the sides of the throws covering the furniture.

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Can I second everything said , so beautifully, by Sarah in this post. Call me a lazy s*d for not writing my own post but Sarah puts it better than I do.
> 
> Glad that Roman's still o k . Hopefully no more " soft endings" to his tray offerings.
> 
> Dyl was sick at 4am again this morning. I'm starting to wonder whether I've messed up the clock on my autofeeder by turning the dials the wrong way :nono:. He's still on 2.5 mg pred. daily but I think is brighter than he was when I was alternating the 2.5 and 5mg dose. He was certainly lively this morning when he discovered that it is fun to run up the sides of the throws covering the furniture.
> 
> love to all masters, mistresses and slaves


Thanks Sylv   x

We've had a couple of days where there's been little soft bits at the end but not too worried 

Sorry to hear Dyl was sick  hopefully just a 'blip'. But pleased he's brighter and running around like a loon and keeping you on your toes 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok.

xx


----------



## Forester

I wanted to wish Meeko and Roman " Good Luck" for their respective vet visits tomorrow. Hopefully everything will go according to plan , with no issues arising, for them both. I will be thinking of them and their slaves.

I expect them both to behave with dignity although the odd flirt is allowed.

Nicola, has Riley got over his "marmite" experience yet?. I do hope so. 

OH and I have learnt never to turn our backs on any item of food as Dylan will go" in for the kill". OH was rather lax a few days ago and was eating a packet of crisps whilst Dyl sat on the table in front of him. Before we realised what was happening Dyl had grabbed a crisp and set off at top speed with his trophy in his mouth. I managed to rugby tackle him and retrieve most of it but we were shocked at his audacity. 

Sarah, I personally wouldn't be too worried about the occaisional " soft ending" to Roman's poo. 

I hope that Rosie continues to enjoy the RCSC pouches and that she continues to do well on them. 

BC, I hope that you, Blue and Ivan are all o k. I know that you are very busy but I have missed your chirpy input recently.

I woke to another blip this morning although it was a strange one. There wasn't much volume  It definitely wasn't a full " return". Perhaps there's more that I haven't found. . Although obviously sad at the blips I am looking forward to not being under strict veterinary orders for a while. Fingers crossed that Dylan will be well enough for me to try some other options , SEB, low fat etc. I'm also wondering whether I should actually feed more often e g 2 hrly.


wishing everyone a good Monday
love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks Sylv 

I'm going to ask the nurse to weigh Roman, he won't keep still on the baby scales and when I weigh myself and then us together I don't think it's a true reading, I'm hoping he has put on some weight, I can notice he's getting bigger but a bit boney, but I know Maine Coons go through this lanky boney stage, he'll be 18 months old next Friday so not even half way to fully grown. 

I'm not worrying about the soft poo as it's only a little bit, but I have to admit that I get scared every time he goes 

Roman can be a flirt  but not as much as my Tim, he loved the ladies  

Sorry Dyl had another blip  glad you're looking forward to trying new things and options, keeping everything crossed Dyl will be ok for your try these out. 

Why not try the 2 hourly feeds and see how things go. 

Stay positive Sylv  

xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Meeko n roman lots of luck n love for tomorrow. I would be yacky on marmite. Bloop is doing fine. We had prawns and no issues last week. 

Hope everyone ok x


----------



## Tao2

Hi everyone, revisiting the forum after aeons away, wanted to say a big hello to you wonderful people and your feline friends, hope they are all doing well! love Tao and the Fluff Beast :thumbup1:xxx


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Meeko n roman lots of luck n love for tomorrow. I would be yacky on marmite. Bloop is doing fine. We had prawns and no issues last week.
> 
> Hope everyone ok x


Thanks BC  x

So glad Blue is still doing well :thumbup:

I love marmite, but all of a sudden started giving me migraines  



Tao2 said:


> Hi everyone, revisiting the forum after aeons away, wanted to say a big hello to you wonderful people and your feline friends, hope they are all doing well! love Tao and the Fluff Beast :thumbup1:xxx


Hello Tao 

Lovely to hear from you 

Hope you and Fluff Beast are well? x


----------



## buffie

Morning all ,hope all is well in the "returns and deposits" departments.
Paws crossed Romans visit to the "green man" goes well,Meeko is off there this afternoon.Not expecting any surprises but with our IBD cats ,who knows 
Hope everyone else is doing okay x



Hi Tao2,said hello lastnight but good to see you back again,hope you stick around


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Morning all ,hope all is well in the "returns and deposits" departments.
> Paws crossed Romans visit to the "green man" goes well,Meeko is off there this afternoon.Not expecting any surprises but with our IBD cats ,who knows
> Hope everyone else is doing okay x
> 
> Hi Tao2,said hello lastnight but good to see you back again,hope you stick around


Morning Buffie 

All ok here 

We saw the 'green lady' this morning  shaved neck and blood taken, results should be back sometime next week. Roman was weighed, 6kg so has put on a couple of grams 

Hope all goes well for Meeko this afternoon, let us know what the 'green man' says 

Hope everyone doing ok and behaving   xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Morning Buffie
> 
> All ok here
> 
> We saw the 'green lady' this morning  shaved neck and blood taken, results should be back sometime next week. Roman was weighed, 6kg so has put on a couple of grams
> 
> Hope all goes well for Meeko this afternoon, let us know what the 'green man' says
> 
> Hope everyone doing ok and behaving   xx


Fingers and paws crossed that Romans blood tests come back okay 

We're back  All well,weight the same as last time 4.7kg so although lighter than I would like it he isn't losing weight so that is good.
Heart /eyes/ears/teeth/ insides all look,feel okay( Meeko was grateful that he didn't tamper with his poop-chute :yikesso he gets a gold star.
Asked vet about the dental check done by vet nurse in the summer when she suggested he might need a scale and polish but vet doesn't think it necessary and certainly not worth the risk of an anaesthetic ,also regarding vaccinations ,with his low risk status and bad reaction to his last booster he is happy with my decision not to do it :thumbsup:
Now all I hope for is that I havnt tempted fate by taking him in for a check up


----------



## Forester

Its good news that the vet visits went according to plan for Roman and Meeko today. Its always reassuring when our vets are happy with how our masters and mistresses are looking.

I'm so pleased that Meeko has maintained his weight despite his recent periods of inappetance. Hopefully , buffie, it will have eased some of your concerns. 

Fingers crossed that Roman's blood results will be " up to standard "again. Is it next week that you are due to speak to Patricia about reducing Roman's pred.?

Dylan has become much brighter on the 2.5mg pred than he was on the alternating dosage. He has rediscovered the joys of bouncing off the walls. Tomorrow is going to be his first day " without " on the every other day routine. No blip today so fingers crossed that we will be o k.

Its good to hear that Blue is doing well, and enjoying the prawns.

I hope that Riley is still " OK ", and is staying away from the marmite. I wonder whether he misses having a little hog around. I suppose at least he doesn't have to worry about getting his ears pierced.!

LDK1 I hope that Rosie continues to make progress. 

Tao 2, Hi ( waves shyly from across the room)

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Buffie, pleased all went well visiting the 'green man' for Meeko  

Good news about his weight  

Keeping everything crossed you haven't tempted fate  


Sylv, pleased to hear that Dylan hasn't had a blip today and that he's much brighter on the reduced dose of Pred  keeping everything crossed that tomorrow with no Pred will be a good one. 


Need to ring Patricia next Thursday, I'm hoping and I would think she will advise to reduce the Pred. 

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

Forester said:


> Tomorrow is going to be his first day " without " on the every other day routine.


As usual , I didn't phrase myself well.  Tomorrow is the first day that he doesn't get a dose. As I give his tablet in the evening any " cold turkey " will be tomorrow night or on Wednesday.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> As usual , I didn't phrase myself well.  Tomorrow is the first day that he doesn't get a dose. As I give his tablet in the evening any " cold turkey " will be tomorrow night or on Wednesday.


You phrase yourself very well and I knew what you meant 

Hopefully no cold turkey for Dyl


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> You phrase yourself very well and I knew what you meant
> 
> Hopefully no cold turkey for Dyl


Thanks .

There will be plenty of cold rabbit though.

I hope that Roman's tray offering will be just " perfect " tomorrow , for your birthday.


----------



## nicolaa123

Tao2 said:


> Hi everyone, revisiting the forum after aeons away, wanted to say a big hello to you wonderful people and your feline friends, hope they are all doing well! love Tao and the Fluff Beast :thumbup1:xxx


Hey you!! Sorry I'm last to the party..decorating still!! Plus trying to keep riley from the paint, which isn't going well and he had painted paws, back, tail with me then dousing him in water!! Then he licks a pan..I tell you he will turn me grey :yikes:

Really hope you are well and fluffbeast is doing well.....often think of you xx


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## nicolaa123

Good news on vet visits..all round! Riley due one in December..I'm sure he will be ok, but I do want to talk meds with her......

Sounds like most are doing ok, so long May that continue, especially ones that are got cold rabbit


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## buffie

Sorry I didnt get back on lastnight ,damned internet went down again :incazzato: :incazzato:, getting totally p*ssed off now,never had a problem with o2 but since sky took over the contract it has been awful,may have to think of changing.

Hope everyone is still doing okay and that Riley is keeping out of the paint 
Good luck with the pred reduction Dylan


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## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

Aww poor Riley  he just wants to help you paint   

Hope Dylan has been fine going cold rabbit  

Buffie, sorry you're having internet issues  can imagine how frustrating it is  I'm with Sky and find them very good  I'll tempt fate now and won't be able to get back on 

We've not had any tray offerings today as yet, but I need eyes in the back of my head or need to be a bit quicker, Roman licked the jelly from Frank's Sheba bowl this morning, so hoping that doesn't do any damage  what is it with these cats licking things they shouldn't 


Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


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## Forester

Afternoon All

I hope that Roman hasn't suffered any ill effects from stealing the jelly from Frank's Sheba. With a bit of luck he wouldn't have managed to eat enough to cause an upset. It would be such a shame when he has come so far. 

I don't envy anyone who has cats who have to have different food. I have enough problems trying to keep Dylan from the human food. He has an obsession with porridge 

Has Riley finished decorating yet?. I need to do some but have been putting it off . I don't relish the idea of keeping Dylan away from any wet paint. Fingers crossed that he's still o k in the poo department.

Positive vibes also being sent for Meeko, Blue and Rosie. Hope that all have healthy appetites with no " returns" or sloppy poo.

Dylan has been a whirling dervish today . No sign of any cold turkey, or ( returned ) cold rabbit, though I don't want to tempt fate. He usually has a setback when I say that he is doing well.

buffie, I hope that your internet is behaving now. I've had a lot of problems with mine recently and have come to the conclusion that I need new and better filters.

love to all


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## buffie

Forester said:


> Afternoon All
> 
> I hope that Roman hasn't suffered any ill effects from stealing the jelly from Frank's Sheba. With a bit of luck he wouldn't have managed to eat enough to cause an upset. It would be such a shame when he has come so far.
> 
> I don't envy anyone who has cats who have to have different food. I have enough problems trying to keep Dylan from the human food. He has an obsession with porridge
> 
> Has Riley finished decorating yet?. I need to do some but have been putting it off . I don't relish the idea of keeping Dylan away from any wet paint. Fingers crossed that he's still o k in the poo department.
> 
> Positive vibes also being sent for Meeko, Blue and Rosie. Hope that all have healthy appetites with no " returns" or sloppy poo.
> 
> Dylan has been a whirling dervish today . No sign of any cold turkey, or ( returned ) cold rabbit, though I don't want to tempt fate. He usually has a setback when I say that he is doing well.
> 
> *buffie, I hope that your internet is behaving now. I've had a lot of problems with mine recently and have come to the conclusion that I need new and better filters*.
> 
> love to all


I'm still here 
Sky tried to tell me I needed a new router ,sent me one,it made no difference.Hardly surprising since it was a line fault 

Good to read that Dylan is not missing his "fix" and is holding on to his rabbit 
Hope everyone else is doing okay.

I went down to vets yesterday to hand in Meeko's claim form and saw Meeko's vet in the car park.He came over to me looking for a cat carrier in the back,he was mightily relieved when I told him I was just handing in his claim form


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> I'm still here
> Sky tried to tell me I needed a new router ,sent me one,it made no difference.Hardly surprising since it was a line fault
> 
> Good to read that Dylan is not missing his "fix" and is holding on to his rabbit
> Hope everyone else is doing okay.
> 
> I went down to vets yesterday to hand in Meeko's claim form and saw Meeko's vet in the car park.He came over to me looking for a cat carrier in the back,he was mightily relieved when I told him I was just handing in his claim form


I'm glad that you've got your internet problem " sorted".

Its good to know that Meeko had no need to visit the vets today. I always feel almost embarrassed that I never have to mention my name at the vets as the staff all recognise me. I suppose its not really surprising , when Eric was ill I my fees must have paid the salary of at least one member of staff.


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## buffie

Forester said:


> I'm glad that you've got your internet problem " sorted".
> 
> Its good to know that Meeko had no need to visit the vets today. I always feel almost embarrassed that I never have to mention my name at the vets as the staff all recognise me. I suppose its not really surprising , when Eric was ill I my fees must have paid the salary of at least one member of staff.


I know the feeling 
When I went in to the waiting room to hand in the claim form (it was outside consulting hours  ) the customer care manager was trying out one of the vet nurses roller skates,she looked up embarrassed and then said ,oh its okay Mrs M knows we are all mad here and carried on :lol: :lol: Made me feel quite at home


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## sarahecp

Evening all  

My vets know me quite well too, whenever I ring and give my name they then reply is it Roman   I'm surprised they haven't got a chair with our name on  

I'm pleased to hear both Dylan and Meeko are doing well  keep it up boys :thumbup: keeping everything crossed that it stays that way. 

No damage done here from Roman's licking  though he tried his hardest earlier to steal the turkey I was slicing up for tea  didn't get any thankfully. 

Frank's still being a stubborn little so and so and will not eat the skippy  I've still got a few more days to try and tempt him before I'm back to work next week. I'm going to be getting the bus to work from next week and may not be able to get home at lunchtimes, so will need to leave the auto feeders out and they all need to be eating the skippy. 

OH had an accident last week, no one hurt thankfully, but the car was a write off, so he'll be taking my car as he cannot get public transport. The insurance have taken the car away to assess, it's not worth much so after we've paid the excess we'll most probably only get a couple of hundred pounds so will have to wait until after Xmas to get another one. 

Hope everyone else is doing well and behaving  xx


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## buffie

Sorry to read about your OH,hope he is okay,what a tough few weeks you have been having


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## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Sorry to read about your OH,hope he is okay,what a tough few weeks you have been having


Thanks Buffie  x

He's fine thanks, the main thing no one was injured 

Roll on 2015! I hope it's a better one and healthier one for all of us xx


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## bluecordelia

Glad everyone seems ok. 
Yes I second that 2015 will be a better year for us ibers! Blue started December being poorly and we didn't get a clear spell until summer. She continues to be ok and I hope a year of good grub properly digested will make up. She is still growing as a mc so when I get more techno will post a picture.

Have a good weekend x


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## Forester

I too hope that 2015 will be a better year for all IBers. 2014 ,for me, has been the nightmare rollercoaster that Nicola and Buffie warned me that it would be.  The ( trainee  )optimist in me is telling me that by now we have to be getting somewhere with ruling out the foods/ meds/ regimes which don't help and finding the ones which do. If only our poor masters and mistresses could tell us ,unambiguously, what makes them feel more comfortable. I find that I have to make a conscious effort to look away when Dylan sees me watching him after a meal. I think that I could be making him more anxious.

Hopefully our boys and girls are all o k, stable ,or, even better improving.

Dylan has returned two portions of rabbit this week ( 4 last week). I'm struggling to prevent myself from starting the Slippery Elm Bark or a new food. I so want to find something which will help as soon as possible . Its hard holding back for him to stabilise after the pred. but I know that if I don't I'm not going to be able to tell whether the SEB/ food is helping.

love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and all slaves.


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## LDK1

Forester said:


> Dylan has returned two portions of rabbit this week ( 4 last week). I'm struggling to prevent myself from starting the Slippery Elm Bark or a new food. I so want to find something which will help as soon as possible . Its hard holding back for him to stabilise after the pred. but I know that if I don't I'm not going to be able to tell whether the SEB/ food is helping.
> 
> love to Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and all slaves.


Hi there,

Very sorry to read of Dylan's recent vomiting. If it were me, when the time is right, I'd be inclined to go back to just feeding the RCSC pouches again for a few weeks (no meds or other suppliments) and see what happens - even if there is the occassional vomiting.

Rosie is doing well on the RCSC so far - I'm so glad that it was suggested on this thread. She has vomited once a week for the two weeks she has been on it - which is an improvement over the z/d dry. Her poos look good and have hardly any smell, so I feel that this is also a good sign of more improvement.

She may never be vomit-free completely, but if she remains stable at the level she is now, and she can be managed without the aid of medication, then this would be a great outcome for me - but I need to give it a few more weeks to be sure.

I do give her a little hairball paste daily (she'll sulk if I don't!), which, interestingly, has 'Bio-Mos' in it to feed good bacteria. I wonder if that, plus the 'FOS' in the RCSC are at the heart of the issue? Meaning, are these problems related to a lack of good bacteria in the gut? Or maybe excess acid (or something else) is killing the good bacteria? Just thinking out loud...

Try not to worry too much about the occasional bout of vomiting - especially if Dylan is not losing weight and otherwise seems fine. One definitely needs patience in this IBD game - something I don't have very much of myself!

I hope Dylan stabilises very soon. 

Best wishes to all.


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## nicolaa123

It really is hard to hold back and take things one at a time that's for sure!

Wish I knew more about the vomiting side of ibd to help..did you ask about the chlorambucil?

Interesting about Rosie and very good news! I've been down the bacteria route, how ever with riley giving pro or even pre biotics caused diarreah..but then that's my special boy 

It would be worth posting a discussion in cat health about bacteria in guts and these foods..

Riley is being a pain in the bum! He is constantly starving, he would eat 800g of food if I gave it to him and want more :tongue_smilie: problem is if he eats too much it travels very quickly :001_rolleyes: so he needs to eat less which he doesn't like or eat more and have to be cleaned up, which he doesn't like!

I'm thinking to add some pumpkins again to bulk the food in his tummy, hopefully that will give him the feeling of being full!

Hopefully everyone is ok :biggrin5:


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## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Very sorry to read of Dylan's recent vomiting. If it were me, when the time is right, I'd be inclined to go back to just feeding the RCSC pouches again for a few weeks (no meds or other suppliments) and see what happens - even if there is the occassional vomiting.
> 
> Rosie is doing well on the RCSC so far - I'm so glad that it was suggested on this thread. She has vomited once a week for the two weeks she has been on it - which is an improvement over the z/d dry. Her poos look good and have hardly any smell, so I feel that this is also a good sign of more improvement.
> 
> She may never be vomit-free completely, but if she remains stable at the level she is now, and she can be managed without the aid of medication, then this would be a great outcome for me - but I need to give it a few more weeks to be sure.
> 
> I do give her a little hairball paste daily (she'll sulk if I don't!), which, interestingly, has 'Bio-Mos' in it to feed good bacteria. I wonder if that, plus the 'FOS' in the RCSC are at the heart of the issue? Meaning, are these problems related to a lack of good bacteria in the gut? Or maybe excess acid (or something else) is killing the good bacteria? Just thinking out loud...
> 
> Try not to worry too much about the occasional bout of vomiting - especially if Dylan is not losing weight and otherwise seems fine. One definitely needs patience in this IBD game - something I don't have very much of myself!
> 
> I hope Dylan stabilises very soon.
> 
> Best wishes to all.


I'm so glad that Rosie is doing so well with the RCSC . I have my fingers, and everything else, crossed that you have found a solution for your girl.

When I started SC with Dylan I thought that I'd found a way to completely stop his vomiting. For him, its become less effective as time has gone on. I've always has a feeling that he may have a problem with chicken and turkey. Unfortunately all of the wet diets ( apart from the z/d ) which my vet wanted me to try were chicken based. I refused to feed dry. That said , my attempts with Ropocat venison and Vet Concept kangaroo were absolutely disastrous.
I feel that I need to keep Dyl's diet unchanged for now or I won't be able to guage whether the pred. made much difference.

I thought about your suggestion of feeding just the RCSC for a while but having looked in my symptom diary I would be more inclined to go for rabbit only for a short while. The week of 4 vomits ( a bad one by Dyl's standards ) was preceded by 3 days of RCSC only as I wasn't well and couldn't manage to cook rabbit. I wonder whether he would have been better if he'd had rabbit as well as the RCSC.

I'm not worrying as such , more trying to work out what change to make next in my quest to help Dylan. I'm enjoying the sweetest natured , most affectionate cat I have ever known.

I too have spent a lot of time considering stomach acid and am now researching pre and probiotics.



nicolaa123 said:


> It really is hard to hold back and take things one at a time that's for sure!
> 
> Wish I knew more about the vomiting side of ibd to help..did you ask about the chlorambucil?
> 
> Interesting about Rosie and very good news! I've been down the bacteria route, how ever with riley giving pro or even pre biotics caused diarreah..but then that's my special boy
> 
> It would be worth posting a discussion in cat health about bacteria in guts and these foods..
> 
> Riley is being a pain in the bum! He is constantly starving, he would eat 800g of food if I gave it to him and want more :tongue_smilie: problem is if he eats too much it travels very quickly :001_rolleyes: so he needs to eat less which he doesn't like or eat more and have to be cleaned up, which he doesn't like!
> 
> I'm thinking to add some pumpkins again to bulk the food in his tummy, hopefully that will give him the feeling of being full!
> 
> Hopefully everyone is ok :biggrin5:


Oh Nicola , I wish that I had the experience to be able to advise you about Riley . Would an increase in fat in his diet help as it takes longer to digest ?. I can't honestly think how you would do it when he can only take kangaroo but would it be worth considering, I don't know. Would more frequent meals help, possibly with the use of an auto feeder whilst you are at work. I don't know how Dylan and I survived before I bought my catmate.

Kate ( vet ) and I haven't discussed chlorambucil. She thought that it would be a good idea to take him off all meds to see what happens. With everything we've tried so far his level of vomiting on the pred. was no better than it was when I first took him to see her last January. On the plus side he still looks happy and healthy.

Oh well, one day at a time.

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves


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## sarahecp

Morning all 

Very wet and cold here today  they say it's going to get colder overnight, so wrap up, snuggle those cats and keep warm 

Pleased to hear Blue is still doing ok  hopefully no more presents on the door step  


I'm sorry to hear Dylan has had some returns  but pleased he's happy  

It maybe a good idea to try a new food and start the SEB and see how he goes, but if you're anything like me I'm so scared, we have the VC rabbit but going to try that over Christmas, hopefully by then Roman will be off the Pred. 


Pleased to hear Rosie is still doing well on the RCSC  And hope she continues to do well 


Riley sounds like Roman, I think he'd be eating 800g of the kangaroo if I let him, I've upped his meals to 6 a day, so giving little and often, he's probably eating around 300g now, but it seems to suit him better this way, it may have something to do with the colder weather setting in. 


I hope Mr M is doing ok 


Roman is still ok  Frank ate a little bit of skippy  I fleaed them all yesterday including Roman, but used Advantage on him instead of the Advocate. 

I will be ringing Patricia on Thursday to update her, fingers crossed the Pred gets reduced and we can start weaning him off. I also need to speak to her about his booster that he should of had in September but couldn't because of the Pred. I think they can go 3 months and after that he'll need to start his vaccs from the begining again. His blood results should be back this coming week too. 


Enjoy the rest of your weekend and keep dry and warm xx


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## LDK1

Forester said:


> When I started SC with Dylan I thought that I'd found a way to completely stop his vomiting. For him, its become less effective as time has gone on. I've always has a feeling that he may have a problem with chicken and turkey. Unfortunately all of the wet diets ( apart from the z/d ) which my vet wanted me to try were chicken based. I refused to feed dry. That said , my attempts with Ropocat venison and Vet Concept kangaroo were absolutely disastrous.
> I feel that I need to keep Dyl's diet unchanged for now or I won't be able to guage whether the pred. made much difference.
> 
> I thought about your suggestion of feeding just the RCSC for a while but having looked in my symptom diary I would be more inclined to go for rabbit only for a short while. The week of 4 vomits ( a bad one by Dyl's standards ) was preceded by 3 days of RCSC only as I wasn't well and couldn't manage to cook rabbit. I wonder whether he would have been better if he'd had rabbit as well as the RCSC.
> 
> I'm not worrying as such , more trying to work out what change to make next in my quest to help Dylan. I'm enjoying the sweetest natured , most affectionate cat I have ever known.
> 
> I too have spent a lot of time considering stomach acid and am now researching pre and probiotics.


Any diet becoming less effective over time is a very big concern for me. If that happens, I may try alternating a couple of foods every few weeks and see if that has any effect.

I tried Rosie with the Ropocat Rabbit and her vomiting increased. Like you said before, too much offal could well be a factor with some of these wet foods.

If this latest trial fails, I think I'm going to ask the vet for the antacid that Buffie uses - well, Meeko I mean.  I'll keep you posted and look forward to hearing how Dylan gets on.

I hope you are feeling better yourself now.


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## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Any diet becoming less effective over time is a very big concern for me. If that happens, I may try alternating a couple of foods every few weeks and see if that has any effect.
> 
> I tried Rosie with the Ropocat Rabbit and her vomiting increased. Like you said before, too much offal could well be a factor with some of these wet foods.
> 
> If this latest trial fails, I think I'm going to ask the vet for the antacid that Buffie uses - well, Meeko I mean.  I'll keep you posted and look forward to hearing how Dylan gets on.
> 
> I hope you are feeling better yourself now.


I, too, am concerned that each food tried for Dylan becomes less well tolerated as time goes on. This has happened with every food that I have tried him with. The Ropocat venison caused an immediate problem but with most foods he will be o k for a few days and then his symptoms re surface. I have achieved the best results by feeding the RCSC and boiled rabbit concurrently. Maybe , by doing this, the system is not having to cope with so many problem ingredients at the same time. I would like to try just boiled rabbit , perhaps with Felini added ,as I believe that the chicken in the RCSC could be a problem. Perhaps this practice of feeding more than one food at a time could help Rosie.

I would like to be able to find a sensitive, low fat, no offal, non poultry based food but I have a feeling that it may not exist.

I would be very interested to hear how Rosie gets on with Famotidine if you try it for her. Am I correct in believing that you have already tried her on Ranitidine ?. Do you know if the 2 meds work in a different way?

I'm fine now, thanks. . I had a vomiting bug and it really made me think about how Dylan ( plus Rosie, Meeko and any other vomiters ) must feel. Having troubles at the other end can't be much fun either.

love to all


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## CassiaJoyGrace

Brilliant thread with great info.
Our own kitty is 3 months and I've really been wanting to get her spayed asap  As she's a tiny little thing we'll have to wait for her to turn 4 months rather than 2kg but that's fine.

Thanks to the Cats Protection site we've found that there is a vets surgery about 10 minutes away that do early neuters/spays! 

The thing is I really trust the surgery she's registered at and they'll only spay from 5 months which I guess is only a month extra, so do I just wait and use the veterinary service I truly trust? They are also offering 10% off her spay and microchip whilst under because we bought a kitten package from them for her vaccs etc...


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## LDK1

Forester said:


> I would be very interested to hear how Rosie gets on with Famotidine if you try it for her. Am I correct in believing that you have already tried her on Ranitidine ?. Do you know if the 2 meds work in a different way?


Yes, she was on a very low dose of Ranitidine for a month around May this year. It did help her (plus that was when I started giving her a 3am feed, as suggested by the vet) but didn't completely stop the vomiting - but it was only a 'half' dose really.

I'm not sure if the two antacids work in different ways, I've haven't looked into it yet - maybe Buffie might know?

Certainly where humans are concerned, there are quite a variety of prescription medications around to deal with excess acid and reflux - with GPs prescribing another type if the first type doesn't work.


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## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

First day back at work was hard, especially after 3 weeks off  missed my boys so much  good thing the day went quick  couldn't wait to get home to see them 

Come home to 3 excited boys   think they missed me! A nice firm poo in the tray  and to not much skippy eaten, they probably slept most of the day  don't blame them as it was freezing here  

I set up 3 auto feeders and Frank and Seb were starving when I got home, so suspect only Roman ate the skippy. Gave Frank and Seb their favourite, Sheba  

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all doing well xx


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## nicolaa123

I'm so happy to read that Roman is doing so well, I really felt for the poor boy having constant and many runny visits to the tray he must feel so much better!

It really is all about controlling the symptoms, we will sadly never find a cure, but with the right meds and avoiding the wrong foods we can manage the symptoms to the ocassinal blip (like riley had today)


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## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I'm so happy to read that Roman is doing so well, I really felt for the poor boy having constant and many runny visits to the tray he must feel so much better!
> 
> It really is all about controlling the symptoms, we will sadly never find a cure, but with the right meds and avoiding the wrong foods we can manage the symptoms to the ocassinal blip (like riley had today)


Thanks Nicola  I really couldn't be happier for him and it shows so much that he is much happier in himself   I must say that I honestly didn't think we would come this far but like you say the right foods and meds are helping and thanks also to you and the other ladies for your advice help and support 

I do know there is going to be a time when we do have a blip and I'm prepared for when we do.

Sorry to hear Riley had a blip today, hope it doesn't continue.

xx


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## bluecordelia

Hi all

Couple of comments. 
Blue didn't like ropocat or macs. I tried macs as her half brother tolerated it so tried it to see if she was the same.

I think a lot of fat in a diet would lead to loose really offensive stools. Think of those fat binding tablets sold to use humans...its not nice excreting fat. Raw meat ie mice are protein primarily. I think we all avoid bulking agents ie grains rice etc. I started blue off on a high protein diet ie chick breast boiled. I later introduced tougher protein ie thighs. I too queried whether chicken upset her and also prawns. She still nibbles at cellophane and I still hide cotton buds as pica seems to be an issue with her.

Ivan however would still eat kibble over good protein and likes cheese and crisps. I would never try blue with cheese as although her stools are formed i am cautious about proteins.

Blues being herself...3 mice and a blackbird over the weekend...showing off as i went to a shepherds hut retreat for 2 nites in Harrogate....hope the blips are just that..love Susan n blue n iv x


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## OrientalSlave

Take her to the one on the cp website. Waiting to 5 months is unnecessary and some kittens will start calling by that age.

By 8 months a great many males are sexually mature complete with smelly urine and spraying. My vet happily neuters at 12+ weeks a few days after their 2nd vaccination.


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## Forester

I'm so sorry to hear about Riley's blip.  I hope that he's feeling better now. Do you think that the decorating might have upset his routine ?

I think that you have a good point about extra fat probably *not *being a good idea BC. I had been trying to think of a way that might enable Nicola to get more nutrition into her poor fur baby. Its just so awful when you just don't know what to do to help them. 

It sounds as though Roman, Blue and Rosie are all doing well.  Fingers crossed that Meeko is also following their example and that Riley will soon be joining them.

Dylan is fine atm . If I say any more I will tempt fate. At least the reduction in pred has not brought about a great escalation of vomiting. Its his last EOD pred tonight. I'm fairly sure that I was meant to have one more reduction dose so I'm going to give 2 doses of 1.25 mg EOD, then finito . He's much more alert than he has been for a while, into everything.

love and positive vibes to all. x


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## sarahecp

Evening all 

Pleased to hear Blue and Dylan are doing well  

I hope everyone else is doing ok and Riley has had no blips today. 

Roman is still doing well  I got up to a buried toy in the litter tray this morning   

I'm a little concerned but probably worrying over nothing  I rang the vets this morning to find out if Roman's results were back, receptionist checked and put me on hold, she said she'd spoken to one of the nurses who said they looked similar to last months but they would need to get Peter (our vet) to call me when he's back in tomorrow to explain a few things  I'm sure it's nothing but my mind has been running away with me all day  Peter did call me last month as the receptionist didn't understand the results, but wonder what needs to be explained  

xx


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## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> She still nibbles at cellophane and I still hide cotton buds as pica seems to be an issue with her.


Roman chews plastic bags, bread wrappers and goes mad for the thick plastic that's wrapped around packs of bottled water, he'll chase me for this, good thing is he doesn't eat it just chews it!


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## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> Pleased to hear Blue and Dylan are doing well
> 
> I hope everyone else is doing ok and Riley has had no blips today.
> 
> Roman is still doing well  I got up to a buried toy in the litter tray this morning
> 
> I'm a little concerned but probably worrying over nothing  I rang the vets this morning to find out if Roman's results were back, receptionist checked and put me on hold, she said she'd spoken to one of the nurses who said they looked similar to last months but they would need to get Peter (our vet) to call me when he's back in tomorrow to explain a few things  I'm sure it's nothing but my mind has been running away with me all day  Peter did call me last month as the receptionist didn't understand the results, but wonder what needs to be explained
> 
> xx


I've had that before when I've rung up for results and the receptionist have said yes they are in but get will call you as they do not understand them.. To gets crossed all will be ok, is this the one connected with the cholrambucil? Riley's never been tested for that side effect, polly and my vet didn't see it as a risk and to be fair it was either use it or the other in our case, it is a rare side effect so try not to worry until or unless there is something to worry about..


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about Riley's blip.  I hope that he's feeling better now. Do you think that the decorating might have upset his routine ?
> 
> I think that you have a good point about extra fat probably *not *being a good idea BC. I had been trying to think of a way that might enable Nicola to get more nutrition into her poor fur baby. Its just so awful when you just don't know what to do to help them.
> 
> It sounds as though Roman, Blue and Rosie are all doing well.  Fingers crossed that Meeko is also following their example and that Riley will soon be joining them.
> 
> Dylan is fine atm . If I say any more I will tempt fate. At least the reduction in pred has not brought about a great escalation of vomiting. Its his last EOD pred tonight. I'm fairly sure that I was meant to have one more reduction dose so I'm going to give 2 doses of 1.25 mg EOD, then finito . He's much more alert than he has been for a while, into everything.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all. x


I'm sure it will be a factor!! But then it could also be any number of things with him!!

Hope Dylan continues to do ok


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I've had that before when I've rung up for results and the receptionist have said yes they are in but get will call you as they do not understand them.. To gets crossed all will be ok, is this the one connected with the cholrambucil? Riley's never been tested for that side effect, polly and my vet didn't see it as a risk and to be fair it was either use it or the other in our case, it is a rare side effect so try not to worry until or unless there is something to worry about..


Yes, the one connected to the chlorambucil. It is a rare side affect, I'm being a silly moo! I'm going to stop worrying, if it was something bad they would have contacted me before I called them 

Will update when I hear from Peter.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Yes, the one connected to the chlorambucil. It is a rare side affect, I'm being a silly moo! I'm going to stop worrying, if it was something bad they would have contacted me before I called them
> 
> Will update when I hear from Peter.


As I've said Riley's never been tested..it's never even crossed my mind really, I may ask at his next check up amd see what my vet says.

But no save the worry for when worry is needed or warranted!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> As I've said Riley's never been tested..it's never even crossed my mind really, I may ask at his next check up amd see what my vet says.
> 
> But no save the worry for when worry is needed or warranted!


You're right  

It didn't cross my mind either but Patricia wanted me to get him tested every month.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> You're right
> 
> It didn't cross my mind either but Patricia wanted me to get him tested every month.


Hmm, maybe the dose? Be worth asking her about it..


----------



## Ccat2005

AFKMatrix said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I have had issues with red gums with my 2 MC's and there only 10months and Shadow has even had to have some gum tissue removed so I can better clean his teeth. This is part of his CaliciVirus though so I know why he has the red gums etc.
> 
> Anyway in relation to your question of what to get I got this kit:
> 
> http://www.vetuk.co.uk/pet-dental-c..._832/cet-toothpaste-and-toothbrush-kits-p-757
> 
> And the brush is far easier/better to use than the one you have in your third link. I did try the one you had linked to but it was so big and the bristles were so riggid the boys hated it.
> 
> But they tolarate the CET toothbrush lol. I also give Shadow Pet Dent Antibacterial Mouth Gel as it has antibaterials in and its also similar to the stuff the vets use when doing dentals I am told. This has really helped Shadows gums so I hope it helps your kitty


Hi AFKMatrix, thanks for this! Well I bought the toothpastes/brushes in the three links I sent and had no luck with the brush. It's huge as you say. I did manage to get one of them to let me use it but he chomped down so hard on my finger i didn't dare try it again. I've been using cotton buds for now with the toothpaste which they've reluctantly let me do... The link you sent looks like it would be a good option. I've ordered it so will let you know how I get on! Also have purchased plaque-off... Figured it won't harm.

Thanks again!


----------



## Ccat2005

Linda L said:


> I would like to know if diet is the answer. Bear had his teeth cleaned when he was 7, I had put it off as long as possible, he is now 10. The vet has to put cats to sleep unlike dogs. I was worried at the time about putting Bear to sleep at his age then. The vet again has been talking about Bear's teeth and noticing tartar was starting up again.


What diet are you feeding Bear, Linda? Did you brush his teeth since he had them cleaned? I feed my two wet food and daily freeze dried treats. I'm working on moving to commercial raw. Apparently for mine it could be because they're persian...


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Hmm, maybe the dose? Be worth asking her about it..


Could be, I'll ask her when I call her Thursday.


----------



## bluecordelia

sarahecp said:


> Roman chews plastic bags, bread wrappers and goes mad for the thick plastic that's wrapped around packs of bottled water, he'll chase me for this, good thing is he doesn't eat it just chews it!


Blue has swallowed cotton buds in the past...luckily it passed through despite me having bent it. She also does the pawing at glass thing but this has eased since she has been more settled...she still sucks my earlobe but thankfully also much reduced as its a bit weird and hurts! X


----------



## bluecordelia

Fingers crossed for results. I second that if they were deranged the vet would have got on to you.x

I do wonder if the great protein we feed is too good...back pondering getting good calories in. I suspect to much high class protein could be also a danger.
These ib kits....we will all end up with masters degree on the subject x


----------



## may

I think it depends on the kitten some kittens need to be neutered early when one of my male kittens was four and a half months old he mated one of my queens once and nine weeks later she had two kittens 
were I've had other males of the same age and over and they show no interest in a calling queen:huh:

So i would have a kitten your not breeding with neutered 
around 4 months old.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm a little concerned but probably worrying over nothing  I rang the vets this morning to find out if Roman's results were back, receptionist checked and put me on hold, she said she'd spoken to one of the nurses who said they looked similar to last months but they would need to get Peter (our vet) to call me when he's back in tomorrow to explain a few things  I'm sure it's nothing but my mind has been running away with me all day  Peter did call me last month as the receptionist didn't understand the results, but wonder what needs to be explained
> 
> xx


Sarah, I'm sure that you have nothing to worry about.  At my vets the receptionists,/nurses are *not allowed *to give you details of test results. They have to be discussed with you by the vet who authorised the tests.



bluecordelia said:


> I do wonder if the great protein we feed is too good...back pondering getting good calories in. I suspect to much high class protein could be also a danger.
> These ib kits....we will all end up with masters degree on the subject x


I've wondered about this on several occaisions. I read that digestion of protein stimulates the production of stomach acid. I felt mortified, wondering if I'd actually *caused *Dylan to have a problem due to feeding products which were 12% protein. I queried this with my vet who claimed that the high protein food would not have caused excess acid but I *do *still wonder.

I am confident that Roman's bloods will be fine. Hoping that Riley is over his blip and that Blue, Meeko, and Rosie are o k. 

Dylan continues to try climbing the curtains, terrorising OH , and doing Lewis Hamilton impressions, his speciality being handbrake turns on the kitchen tiles. There's been no rabbit on the carpet and I have a massive grin on my face.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks BC and Sylv 

No phone call as yet, but like I said I'm not worrying now  

IBD confuses me  foods do too  but what I do know is that the skippy is doing some good, it's a much better food than that awful sugar filled Felix   

Glad to hear Dylan is keeping you on your toes   there must be something in the air as Roman as been skidding around for a week or so now  he was running so fast this morning he nearly crashed into the wall, having furry tufts on his paws and wooden floors he can't stop and keeps going  

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## buffie

Afternoon everyone.
What is going on with our little fluff monsters , it would seem Meeko isn't alone in having an attack of the "zoomies",he has been hurtling around like a cat possessed  He seems a bit quieter today but that may not last.
Sarah hope you don't have much longer to wait for the results,its horrible waiting
Hope everyone is doing okay Meeko seems much the same,eating a fair amount although I would like him to eat more (I'm never happy)


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Afternoon everyone.
> What is going on with our little fluff monsters , it would seem Meeko isn't alone in having an attack of the "zoomies",he has been hurtling around like a cat possessed  He seems a bit quieter today but that may not last.
> Sarah hope you don't have much longer to wait for the results,its horrible waiting
> Hope everyone is doing okay Meeko seems much the same,eating a fair amount although I would like him to eat more (I'm never happy)


Thanks Buffie 

Still no call.

There defiantly must be something in the air  

You want Meeko to eat more and I want Frank to eat less  Frank's got vets on Saturday morning for his booster and yearly check up, they are going to tell me he's over weight I know it  he's eating for England and the rest of the world I think


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Buffie
> 
> *Still no call.*
> 
> There defiantly must be something in the air
> 
> You want Meeko to eat more and I want Frank to eat less  Frank's got vets on Saturday morning for his booster and yearly check up, they are going to tell me he's over weight I know it  he's eating for England and the rest of the world I think


That's a bit poor client care ,they must realise that you will be anxiously waiting for the results  , but I suppose on the other hand the results must be okay or they would have been in touch by now surely.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> That's a bit poor client care ,they must realise that you will be anxiously waiting for the results  , but I suppose on the other hand the results must be okay or they would have been in touch by now surely.


They are usually quite good with call backs.

That's how I'm looking at it, all must be ok  it's just the waiting. I feel like calling them but surgery doesn't finish until 6:30 so maybe I'll get a call then.

I need to put a call in to Patricia tomorrow as the month is up since our last update, if I don't hear from my vet today hopefully she'll have some news.


----------



## sarahecp

Peter just called, all ok with Roman's bloods   

He apologised for not calling earlier, he's been in surgery and on a couple of home visits. 

He was really happy with Roman's progress


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Peter just called, all ok with Roman's bloods
> 
> He apologised for not calling earlier, he's been in surgery and on a couple of home visits.
> 
> He was really happy with Roman's progress


Excellent news .

Now you can stop worrying.


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Peter just called, all ok with Roman's bloods
> 
> He apologised for not calling earlier, he's been in surgery and on a couple of home visits.
> 
> He was really happy with Roman's progress


Fantastic news :thumbup: :thumbup:, onwards and upwards


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Excellent news .
> 
> Now you can stop worrying.


I wasn't worrying   



buffie said:


> Fantastic news :thumbup: :thumbup:, onwards and upwards


Yes, onwards and upwards


----------



## jenny armour

hi back again after nearly two years. 
last year Charlie my 16 year old ragdoll kept on having loose poo. after tests that showed nothing up, with advice from here I put her on rc gastro intestinal dry. this did well until I had trouble getting it in September this year and I put her on - not sure of name = greenwood? from zooplus. she was going along fine until last week, when I had put her with all the others onto rc ragdoll. she is now back to little dobs of muscus poo with blood.
this week the vet checked her over and she had a normal temperature, so she gave her an antibiotic injection which last two days and three days of synulox which runs out on Friday. at the moment nothing has changed, and I have managed to get some more gastro but she wont eat it. she also eats felix wet food. she is eating but am worried about her because of her age.


----------



## sarahecp

jenny armour said:


> hi back again after nearly two years.
> last year Charlie my 16 year old ragdoll kept on having loose poo. after tests that showed nothing up, with advice from here I put her on rc gastro intestinal dry. this did well until I had trouble getting it in September this year and I put her on - not sure of name = greenwood? from zooplus. she was going along fine until last week, when I had put her with all the others onto rc ragdoll. she is now back to little dobs of muscus poo with blood.
> this week the vet checked her over and she had a normal temperature, so she gave her an antibiotic injection which last two days and three days of synulox which runs out on Friday. at the moment nothing has changed, and I have managed to get some more gastro but she wont eat it. she also eats felix wet food. she is eating but am worried about her because of her age.


Hi Jenny, welcome back 

I'm so to hear about Charlie  I can understand your concern with her age.

I do sympathise with you having a fussy cat, I've had this with Roman, he would eat nothing but Felix, turned into a bit of an addict. then the RC sensitive control dry he would eat and eventually got him eating the Vet-Concept kangaroo wet. Have you tried mixing a little of the gastro food in with her Felix? Gradually adding more gastro food and less Felix might help.

Has your vet done any further tests?

Sorry I can't advise any further, hopefully someone will be on a bit later to advise further.

Take care and keep us updated x


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

I spoke to Patricia earlier this afternoon, she wants to reduce the Pred to 5mg every other day instead of everyday, continue with the chlorambucil every other day same dose of 2mg. We need to do this for a month and then update her, she said she'll be there between Christmas and New Year. 

I asked about the monthly blood tests, she said because of the dosage and frequency of the chlorambucil, though the risks are rare she still wants monthly bloods done. I also asked about his booster, she said that not to have it done because of both meds the vaccinations will not work, but we'll discuss again when we speak next month. He will have to start his vaccinations again but when that will be she's not sure. 

Roman is still ok, we had a little bit of soft poo at the end again this morning. He's still running around like a loony 

Hope every one else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

Hello , Jenny. I'm sorry but I have no experience with cats who suffer from dire rear but would like to say" welcome."

Trying to entice a reluctant eater is a nightmare . I really do feel for you. Have you tried Charlie with Royal Canin Sensitivity Control Chicken and Rice pouches. ? These seem to be liked by many cats and are often well tolerated. 
My only tip with a reluctant eater would be to try feeding just a tiny piece at a time though I expect that you've probably already tried that.

Sarah , Its brilliant news that you're going to be reducing Roman's pred.. Fingers crossed that it goes well.

LDK1 Here's hoping that Rosie continues to do well with the SC pouches. Have you seen your vet to discuss antacids yet?

Nicola ,I hope that Riley is over his last blip and there have been no more runny poo's.

BC Fingers crossed that Blue's trophies from her hunting exploits have not been upsetting her tummy. Does she eat them or just present them to you as a token of her love? 

buffie , What can I say about Meeko ? I was lying in bed last night thinking of your photo of him in the Christmas spirit http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/385879-cats-christmas-trees-2.html and still giggling to myself.. I hope that his appetite is improving and that he keeps his food to himself.

True to form, Dylan returned 2 meals overnight. I am desperate to try him with the Slippery Elm to see whether that helps.

Love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Hello , Jenny. I'm sorry but I have no experience with cats who suffer from dire rear but would like to say" welcome."
> 
> Trying to entice a reluctant eater is a nightmare . I really do feel for you. Have you tried Charlie with Royal Canin Sensitivity Control Chicken and Rice pouches. ? These seem to be liked by many cats and are often well tolerated.
> My only tip with a reluctant eater would be to try feeding just a tiny piece at a time though I expect that you've probably already tried that.
> 
> Sarah , Its brilliant news that you're going to be reducing Roman's pred.. Fingers crossed that it goes well.
> 
> LDK1 Here's hoping that Rosie continues to do well with the SC pouches. Have you seen your vet to discuss antacids yet?
> 
> Nicola ,I hope that Riley is over his last blip and there have been no more runny poo's.
> 
> BC Fingers crossed that Blue's trophies from her hunting exploits have not been upsetting her tummy. Does she eat them or just present them to you as a token of her love?
> 
> buffie , What can I say about Meeko ? I was lying in bed last night thinking of your photo of him in the Christmas spirit http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/385879-cats-christmas-trees-2.html and still giggling to myself.. I hope that his appetite is improving and that he keeps his food to himself.
> 
> True to form, Dylan returned 2 meals overnight. I am desperate to try him with the Slippery Elm to see whether that helps.
> 
> Love to all


Thanks Sylv  I'm happy that we're reducing the Pred  but did think it would be a lower dose but know we have to do it slowly, it will be 3 months he's been in it on the 9th December, to me that is a long time.

I'm a little concerned about Roman not being able to have his booster but not much we can do about that.

I'm sorry to hear Dylan has had some returns, how long has he gone this time? When are you going to start the SEB?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv  I'm happy that we're reducing the Pred  but did think it would be a lower dose but know we have to do it slowly, it will be 3 months he's been in it on the 9th December, to me that is a long time.
> 
> I'm a little concerned about Roman not being able to have his booster but not much we can do about that.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear Dylan has had some returns, how long has he gone this time? When are you going to start the SEB?


Personally, I wouldn't worry that its taking longer than you'd prefer to reduce Roman's pred. You *are *reducing and *you have made so much progress* .

I think I mentioned that I've seen masses of posts on the Yahoo IBD group referring to cats who have been on pred for *years*.
At one point my vet told me that she didn't think that Dylan would ever be able to come off. . We're only reducing because Dylan has been unable to tolerate a dose which was effective for his vomiting, and because the pred. has only brought him to the same level that he was at when we started out last January. Dyl can't have the dose which stopped his vomiting , 5mg daily because it gave him dire rear. If he's much worse off the pred and we can't get the level down with other changes he may have to go back on though I desperately hope not. He's a complete nutter off the pred. - just the way I love him.

I understand that you are concerned that Roman can't have his booster at the moment however there would be no point in him having the booster at a time when it wouldn't be fully effective.

Dyl went 4 days vomit free. I am disappointed that he returned 2 successive meals but wonder whether the second one was because the interval between meals was wrong after he had vomited the first time. I tried to stay awake to feed him 30 minutes after the "return" but I fell asleep so the gaps between meals were all over the place. He does best when fed precisely on time.

I need to wait till I've been able to establish his current pattern of vomiting off the pred before I make any changes. I'm torn between trying the SEB and introducing some Felini. I can only make one change at a time or I won't know what is working/ not working.* I must learn to be patient *

love to all


----------



## jenny armour

sarahecp said:


> Hi Jenny, welcome back
> 
> I'm so to hear about Charlie  I can understand your concern with her age.
> 
> I do sympathise with you having a fussy cat, I've had this with Roman, he would eat nothing but Felix, turned into a bit of an addict. then the RC sensitive control dry he would eat and eventually got him eating the Vet-Concept kangaroo wet. Have you tried mixing a little of the gastro food in with her Felix? Gradually adding more gastro food and less Felix might help.
> 
> Has your vet done any further tests?
> 
> Sorry I can't advise any further, hopefully someone will be on a bit later to advise further.
> 
> Take care and keep us updated x


hi sarah
thank you for getting back and the advice. 
well today I thought charlies problem was clearing up, but when I came this afternoon, it was literally going straight through her, so I took her back down the vet this evening and he has taken her off of the synulox and put her on stomorgyl and panacur which I have put in water and am syringing (the panacur). if she is no better by tomorrow I am to take her back. the vet has taken a sample of her poo. poor baby was literally straining in the basket. I have at the moment some id dry and wet. at least if she doesn't eat it I can get a refund. if I recall someone kindly on here sent me some sensitive control wet last year but she refused it.
got my hands full with her and jack who is hand fed kd, good times eh?


----------



## jenny armour

I am assuming that Charlie is being given panacur in case worms is encouraging the runs? even tho she is an indoor cat


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Personally, I wouldn't worry that its taking longer than you'd prefer to reduce Roman's pred. You *are *reducing and *you have made so much progress* .
> 
> I think I mentioned that I've seen masses of posts on the Yahoo IBD group referring to cats who have been on pred for *years*.
> At one point my vet told me that she didn't think that Dylan would ever be able to come off. . We're only reducing because Dylan has been unable to tolerate a dose which was effective for his vomiting, and because the pred. has only brought him to the same level that he was at when we started out last January. Dyl can't have the dose which stopped his vomiting , 5mg daily because it gave him dire rear. If he's much worse off the pred and we can't get the level down with other changes he may have to go back on though I desperately hope not. He's a complete nutter off the pred. - just the way I love him.
> 
> I understand that you are concerned that Roman can't have his booster at the moment however there would be no point in him having the booster at a time when it wouldn't be fully effective.
> 
> Dyl went 4 days vomit free. I am disappointed that he returned 2 successive meals but wonder whether the second one was because the interval between meals was wrong after he had vomited the first time. I tried to stay awake to feed him 30 minutes after the "return" but I fell asleep so the gaps between meals were all over the place. He does best when fed precisely on time.
> 
> I need to wait till I've been able to establish his current pattern of vomiting off the pred before I make any changes. I'm torn between trying the SEB and introducing some Felini. I can only make one change at a time or I won't know what is working/ not working.* I must learn to be patient *
> 
> love to all


You're right Sylv  and again I'm worrying and I shouldn't be 

Maybe it was the timings that caused Dyl the returns, fingers crossed he has no more. I'm not sure what to advise re the Fellini and SEB, but like you say one change at a time.

I don't think I'll ever learn to be patient 

Hope Dyl was ok last night and this morning xx


----------



## sarahecp

jenny armour said:


> hi sarah
> thank you for getting back and the advice.
> well today I thought charlies problem was clearing up, but when I came this afternoon, it was literally going straight through her, so I took her back down the vet this evening and he has taken her off of the synulox and put her on stomorgyl and panacur which I have put in water and am syringing (the panacur). if she is no better by tomorrow I am to take her back. the vet has taken a sample of her poo. poor baby was literally straining in the basket. I have at the moment some id dry and wet. at least if she doesn't eat it I can get a refund. if I recall someone kindly on here sent me some sensitive control wet last year but she refused it.
> got my hands full with her and jack who is hand fed kd, good times eh?





jenny armour said:


> I am assuming that Charlie is being given panacur in case worms is encouraging the runs? even tho she is an indoor cat


Poor Charlie  really hope she starts to improve soon and if she eats the food it starts to help.

Roman was given a course of Panacur for Giardia, the parasite was found in his poo sample, so we did the course for 10 days, my other 2 boys were treated too just incase. Your vet may have prescribed it just incase there are any parasites there before you get the results of the sample.

Roman had dire rear intermittently for 8-9 months, was tested for all sorts, giardia was the only thing that came back. He had different courses of antibiotics including Metrondanizole and Veraflox, nothing helped so that's when we were referred to Davies in August where he had a scan and endoscopy. He has IBD.

Let us know how Charlie is and hope the poo sample is ok x


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1 Here's hoping that Rosie continues to do well with the SC pouches. Have you seen your vet to discuss antacids yet?
> 
> True to form, Dylan returned 2 meals overnight. I am desperate to try him with the Slippery Elm to see whether that helps.
> 
> Love to all





Forester said:


> At one point my vet told me that she didn't think that Dylan would ever be able to come off. . We're only reducing because Dylan has been unable to tolerate a dose which was effective for his vomiting, and because the pred. has only brought him to the same level that he was at when we started out last January. Dyl can't have the dose which stopped his vomiting , 5mg daily because it gave him dire rear. If he's much worse off the pred and we can't get the level down with other changes he may have to go back on though I desperately hope not. He's a complete nutter off the pred. - just the way I love him.
> 
> Dyl went 4 days vomit free. I am disappointed that he returned 2 successive meals but wonder whether the second one was because the interval between meals was wrong after he had vomited the first time. I tried to stay awake to feed him 30 minutes after the "return" but I fell asleep so the gaps between meals were all over the place. He does best when fed precisely on time.


Sorry to read of Dylan's vomiting.

Rosie is now vomiting 1 to 3 times a week on the RCSC - and not just after the morning feeds, but 6pm and 10pm too lately. Her poos are greatly improved in terms of smell compared to how they were before starting either the z/d or RCSC food trials though.

All in all the frequency of vomiting is now about the same as the dry z/d - but the RCSC is a much better product IMO.

I haven't spoken to the vet yet. I want to carry on with the RCSC for 6 weeks first so that I can present the results of doing that compared to 6 weeks of z/d dry.

I think if she does need the aid of medication to control the vomiting, I will definitely go for a low dose of antacids rather than steroids as I am totally convinced now that the vomiting is an excess acid/reflux issue alone (or a sensitivity to the acid) - of which a special diet may not be able to completely resolve, but together with an antacid boost may be all that is needed. When she had antacids before, she wasn't on any special food.

If she had had another bout of colitis (which she had a few months ago and was probably unrelated) or continued to have very smelly (though well-formed) poos, I may have had to go down the steroid route.

You saying that Dylan does best when fed on time backs up the excess acid theory. Dr. Becker mentioned that one of the many reasons for vomiting was a production of acid in expectation of a meal that doesn't arrive. Of course, many cats won't be sick if that happens - so it just depends on the cat and how 'sensitive' it's gut is perhaps. My Watson has never had a vomiting issue and doesn't have smelly poo, yet he eats the same food Rosie used to eat...

Best wishes to all.


----------



## bluecordelia

Gosh blinked and all change. Hope i don't miss anything..
Delayed imms...i would worry too much about this as there is still some immunity. I do vac mine yearly incase they ever have to go into a cattery...highly unlikely. 
Charlie...
The new poorly girl with dire rear welcome. For me as a pooper cat owner i strive to get fluid in. No dry food and warm water in all wet food ie mouse body temperature. Blues stool sample was positive for clostridium. Metronidazole gave her a break from the constant runs and i had to sneak after her with a tube of anusol hidden up my sleeve. We tried grain free and most quality foods. In the e d boiled chicken broth helped.

Let us know any test results as the girls on here are fab re meds. I adopted a holistic approach ut it was a long haul. Blue has vomited but rarely and in a cluster. 


Just to update...since i abandoned her for 2nites, she showed off with her doorstep trophies but had now not bothered to show off. The presents are intact but i did find a poor little mouses bottom half near her favourite gate yesterday so she is eating some wild raw. 

Hope everyone is ok x


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Sorry to read of Dylan's vomiting.
> 
> Rosie is now vomiting 1 to 3 times a week on the RCSC - and not just after the morning feeds, but 6pm and 10pm too lately. Her poos are greatly improved in terms of smell compared to how they were before starting either the z/d or RCSC food trials though.
> 
> All in all the frequency of vomiting is now about the same as the dry z/d - but the RCSC is a much better product IMO.
> 
> I haven't spoken to the vet yet. I want to carry on with the RCSC for 6 weeks first so that I can present the results of doing that compared to 6 weeks of z/d dry.
> 
> I think if she does need the aid of medication to control the vomiting, I will definitely go for a low dose of antacids rather than steroids as I am totally convinced now that the vomiting is an excess acid/reflux issue alone (or a sensitivity to the acid) - of which a special diet may not be able to completely resolve, but together with an antacid boost may be all that is needed. When she had antacids before, she wasn't on any special food.
> 
> If she had had another bout of colitis (which she had a few months ago and was probably unrelated) or continued to have very smelly (though well-formed) poos, I may have had to go down the steroid route.
> 
> You saying that Dylan does best when fed on time backs up the excess acid theory. Dr. Becker mentioned that one of the many reasons for vomiting was a production of acid in expectation of a meal that doesn't arrive. Of course, many cats won't be sick if that happens - so it just depends on the cat and how 'sensitive' it's gut is perhaps. My Watson has never had a vomiting issue and doesn't have smelly poo, yet he eats the same food Rosie used to eat...
> 
> Best wishes to all.


Hi , LDK1
I'm pleased that the RCSC pouches seem to suit Rosie. I agree that they must be better quality than the dry. How does Rosie's " return " frequency of 1 - 3 times per week compare with how she was when you started the diet trial?
Has her pattern in terms of time of day changed at all ?

Dylan does seem more likely to vomit when he has had a longer gap since the last meal however will also vomit if given too much food in too short a time. .
Sometimes he asks for food and I think that I'm dammed if I give him any but dammed if I don't.

Has Rosie ever been able to control her food intake without vomiting?. Dylan never has. I have always had to control his meal sizes and frequency , even when he was a kitten , because he would eat till he vomited *every time*. I find it *so difficult* .

Like you, I believe that acid is a major part of the problem. I am hopeful that Slippery Elm Bark may help with this by giving his digestive tract a protective coating. I believe that the stomach acid theory would explain why Dylan was sick on the 2 occaisions when I fed him using a slow feeder. He was anticipating the meal but it took him too long to get the food out.

I had expected my vet to prescribe something to protect Dyl's digestive tract after he had his endoscopy but she didn't want to give anything before his biopsy results were back. The only observation made with the endoscopy was that his stomach bled very easily when touched with the endoscope. His biopsies didn't show any inflammatory cells.

Has Rosie had an endoscopy/ biopsies ?

Dylan has never had smelly poo  though before starting the RCSC pouches would often have smelly wind. Other than the difference with the poo it certainly sounds to me as though Rosie and Dylan are suffering in the same way. Hopefully one of us can hit on a way of helping them both.


----------



## Forester

Whoops, My fingers twitched resulting in me posting before I'd finished typing.
My mind has gone completely blank now, nothing new there so I will just extend my love and best wishes to Blue, Charlie, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves. Wishing you all formed poo and no vomiting as well as an enjoyable weekend.


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

Roman's still being a loon  I got up to firm and soft poo this morning, there was more soft than firm. When I made the food up yesterday morning to put in the auto feeders (skippy and pumpkin in bowl and mix together) I think I may have added too much pumpkin, not sure if too much can cause an issue  but I'm ignoring it but made a note in the diary. 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok and behaving   xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry having internet woes, hope all are ok!?


----------



## jenny armour

sarahecp said:


> Poor Charlie  really hope she starts to improve soon and if she eats the food it starts to help.
> 
> Roman was given a course of Panacur for Giardia, the parasite was found in his poo sample, so we did the course for 10 days, my other 2 boys were treated too just incase. Your vet may have prescribed it just incase there are any parasites there before you get the results of the sample.
> 
> Roman had dire rear intermittently for 8-9 months, was tested for all sorts, giardia was the only thing that came back. He had different courses of antibiotics including Metrondanizole and Veraflox, nothing helped so that's when we were referred to Davies in August where he had a scan and endoscopy. He has IBD.
> 
> Let us know how Charlie is and hope the poo sample is ok x


thank you sarah, its nice to think you are not on your own.
not sure when the results will be back they didn't say. today I found 
Charlie had done a little soft poo and all day nothing, then I went out to the conservatory she had done a very runny dark brown poo, yet she is fine in herself and eating the id soft well at the moment. on top of that oliver one of my other raggies has had the runs and a very runny eyes and nose. up the vet again and more stomogyl but his runs seems to have ceased after one half tablet (fingers crossed). don't worry I am keeping the course up. I have asked for a resident seat in the vets or shares in the practice


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Hi , LDK1
> I'm pleased that the RCSC pouches seem to suit Rosie. I agree that they must be better quality than the dry. How does Rosie's " return " frequency of 1 - 3 times per week compare with how she was when you started the diet trial?
> Has her pattern in terms of time of day changed at all ?
> 
> Dylan does seem more likely to vomit when he has had a longer gap since the last meal however will also vomit if given too much food in too short a time. .
> Sometimes he asks for food and I think that I'm dammed if I give him any but dammed if I don't.
> 
> Has Rosie ever been able to control her food intake without vomiting?. Dylan never has. I have always had to control his meal sizes and frequency , even when he was a kitten , because he would eat till he vomited *every time*. I find it *so difficult* .
> 
> Like you, I believe that acid is a major part of the problem. I am hopeful that Slippery Elm Bark may help with this by giving his digestive tract a protective coating. I believe that the stomach acid theory would explain why Dylan was sick on the 2 occaisions when I fed him using a slow feeder. He was anticipating the meal but it took him too long to get the food out.
> 
> I had expected my vet to prescribe something to protect Dyl's digestive tract after he had his endoscopy but she didn't want to give anything before his biopsy results were back. The only observation made with the endoscopy was that his stomach bled very easily when touched with the endoscope. His biopsies didn't show any inflammatory cells.
> 
> Has Rosie had an endoscopy/ biopsies ?
> 
> Dylan has never had smelly poo  though before starting the RCSC pouches would often have smelly wind. Other than the difference with the poo it certainly sounds to me as though Rosie and Dylan are suffering in the same way. Hopefully one of us can hit on a way of helping them both.


Hi Forester,

I spent ages this morning writing a reply to this post and then I just lost it all!!! :cryin::cryin::cryin:

I'll get back to you in the next couple of days.


----------



## sarahecp

Hello all 

Nice and sunny here now the fog has cleared  still a bit chilly though.

I got up to a nice firm poo this morning :thumbup: I think my theory about too much pumpkin could have been right, but then again maybe not  

I've let Roman have some garden time today, which he's really happy about  we've not been out since last Saturday and he's been driving me mad!

Hope everyone is doing ok. Enjoy your Sunday  xx



nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry having internet woes, hope all are ok!?


That's not good  hope you and Riley are ok x



jenny armour said:


> thank you sarah, its nice to think you are not on your own.
> not sure when the results will be back they didn't say. today I found
> Charlie had done a little soft poo and all day nothing, then I went out to the conservatory she had done a very runny dark brown poo, yet she is fine in herself and eating the id soft well at the moment. on top of that oliver one of my other raggies has had the runs and a very runny eyes and nose. up the vet again and more stomogyl but his runs seems to have ceased after one half tablet (fingers crossed). don't worry I am keeping the course up. I have asked for a resident seat in the vets or shares in the practice


Glad to hear Charlie is eating the id food, hopefully and fingers crossed her poo starts to improve soon. Pleased she's fine in herself 

Oh no poor Oliver  I hope he's ok.

I think nearly all of us on this thread have got a resident seat at the vets with our names on  

Keep us updated on Charlie x


----------



## nicolaa123

Seems to be intermittent at the moment &#128546; we are bothe ok thank you


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi Forester,
> 
> I spent ages this morning writing a reply to this post and then I just lost it all!!! :cryin::cryin::cryin:
> 
> I'll get back to you in the next couple of days.


No worries, . I have problems like that. OH bought me a new phone, far too smart for me. I think that I've just sent 5 identical texts to someone . . . but there again it may not even have gone at all .


----------



## Forester

Hi all, 
Apologies for being AWOL since yesterday lunchtime.

I'm glad that Roman's feeling bright and that today's tray offering is improved over yesterday's. Fingers crossed that the blip was due to too much pumpkin.

Jenny, I'm sorry that you now have Oliver as well as Charlie feeling poorly.., but glad that he seems to be showing a rapid improvement.

Nicola, Its so good to see you around again, hopefully Riley will give you cause to give a glowing report about him.

Dylan and I are continuing to have problems which seem related to badly timed meals. He cried for food at 10.30 pm yesterday so I gave him an extra snack.This however was returned . 11.30 pm and 3.30 am meals eaten as scheduled but he then wakes me crying for food at 5.45am. I feed breakfast at 5.45 instead of 7am but then today's schedule is all out of kilter. Meals today are all being served early. The dilemma, do I feed strictly to time and risk him getting too hungry or do I feed when asked and risk him eating too much at once. 

LDK1/ buffie, How do you determine when and how much to feed. Do you find meal size critical?

I'm going to *have *to be patient regarding trying SEB and other diets. I've been told that it can take between 2 and 6 weeks for the physiological effects of the pred to wear off. I might just gradually try adding some Felini to his rabbit over the next couple of weeks if the vomiting record for this period is not going to be any use for comparisons. It would give me some peace of mind.

BC .I hope that Blue is o k.

Sorry to rush ,I'd better feed now ( 40 mins early ) to keep up today's schedule. Hope it stays down.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

Roman is still ok  I think the blip was the pumpkin, my fault  I think I might start reducing it a little but need to refer back to the diary of how long he's been on it first. 

Sylv, sorry to hear you and Dyl are having some problems  hopefully and fingers crossed once you get the timings right all will sort itself out. 


Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are doing ok xx

Keep wrapped up and warm, there's a rumour we could have some snow by Friday!


----------



## Forester

Forester said:


> I'm going to *have *to be patient regarding trying SEB and other diets.


Forget that folks  OH found a pile of rabbit in a chair in a bedroom this morning so trying to have patience has been abandoned. Plan B has been instigated. I can't stand back and watch Dylan get worse and do nothing. I've started the SEB. I am aware that its most effective given approx. 15 minutes before meals but I've managed to give him 2 doses mixed in with his rabbit. I've seen a site which says that its quite acceptable to give this way.



sarahecp said:


> Keep wrapped up and warm, there's a rumour we could have some snow by Friday!


  . I traded in my Landrover this summer against a 4x4 car. Sounds like I could soon find out whether it was a mistake.

Hoping that all masters, mistresses and slaves are O K.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Forget that folks  OH found a pile of rabbit in a chair in a bedroom this morning so trying to have patience has been abandoned. Plan B has been instigated. I can't stand back and watch Dylan get worse and do nothing. I've started the SEB. I am aware that its most effective given approx. 15 minutes before meals but I've managed to give him 2 doses mixed in with his rabbit. I've seen a site which says that its quite acceptable to give this way.
> 
> . I traded in my Landrover this summer against a 4x4 car. Sounds like I could soon find out whether it was a mistake.
> 
> Hoping that all masters, mistresses and slaves are O K.
> 
> love to all


I hope you feel better about starting the SEB (I always have a giggle to myself when I read SEB as I can picture my Seb being given to Dylan on a plate  ) I really do hope it helps Dylan and he starts to improve.

Fingers crossed we don't get any snow

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I hope you feel better about starting the SEB (I always have a giggle to myself when I read SEB as I can picture my Seb being given to Dylan on a plate  ) I really do hope it helps Dylan and he starts to improve.
> 
> Fingers crossed we don't get any snow
> 
> xx


Thanks , Sarah . I just couldn't stand back and do nothing. I feel better for knowing that I'm doing *something *to try to help him.

I'd be happy to have your Seb any day, on a plate or otherwise.

Its that twitchy finger once more . I posted before I'd finished again.

Sending love and positive vibes to Blue, Charlie, Meeko, Riley, Roman, and Rosie.


----------



## nicolaa123

Slyv trust your instincts! Never done me much harm or even Riley!

I came home to a fur sausage in the hallway, huge poo in the tray and a starving cat !!

I'm getting evils now as I've not served supper yet!

Wish I could help more with vomitting cats &#55357;&#56862;


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi Dylan n forrester
Blue is fine. I would stick to set times. I never worry if my 2 go a little hungry but the rapid gorging got bluey in summer ie a straight in and all up again within 10/15 mins. I had let breakfast wait but they now go out about 6Am and feed at 8. 
We have just traded an xtrail for a Honda 4x4 but i don't miss the land rover generally.in the really bad weather my mini never let me down but a go in a friends discovery was awful..it slipped at the back. 

Just bought the kits Xmas presents off zooplus...they are doing an advent give away. 

Speak soon and warm hugs to all x


----------



## LDK1

Please feel free to bypass my long post! 

Hi again Forester,

Im so sorry to read whats happening with Dylan lately. 




Forester said:


> Hi , LDK1





Forester said:


> How does Rosie's " return " frequency of 1 - 3 times per week compare with how she was when you started the diet trial?
> Has her pattern in terms of time of day changed at all ?
> 
> When her chronic vomiting started in May (and before any diet trials) it was almost every day, and sometimes more than once a day. She has lately vomited at her 6pm and 10pm feeds, but I think this is just a blip, so Im not too worried about that  yet!
> 
> Dylan does seem more likely to vomit when he has had a longer gap since the
> last meal however will also vomit if given too much food in too short a time. .
> Sometimes he asks for food and I think that I'm dammed if I give him any but dammed if I don't.
> 
> Yeah, I know what you mean
> 
> With Rosie, the morning meal is the biggest problem  even though there is a longer gap between the lunchtime and early evening meals.
> 
> She will sometimes vomit if given a bit more food than normal  but I think she may have been teetering on the verge of being sick anyway, and the extra bit of food just pushes things over the edge.
> 
> I wonder if trying to use food alone to control the situation is just not enough? This is why I am considering the antacids - it may give the body that added help to deal with the overall issue.
> 
> Has Rosie ever been able to control her food intake without vomiting?. Dylan never has. I have always had to control his meal sizes and frequency , even when he was a kitten , because he would eat till he vomited *every time*. I find it *so difficult* .
> 
> I can well imagine how difficult it is, though Dylan and Rosie are very different in this aspect.
> 
> I got Rosie at around 18 months old and she never used to be sick after eating  and her meals were bigger than they are now. She is not really food obsessed  unlike my Watson.
> 
> After a couple of years with us, Rosie began to get sick occasionally and I dropped a few brands that I was using. I then started reducing her meal sizes thinking that was the cause. She would seem alright for a while and then she would start being sick again. Then in May she started being sick a lot  but just mainly in the morning. Her biggest meal is at 10pm but she is never normally sick on that size meal at that time of day.
> 
> Like you, I believe that acid is a major part of the problem. I am hopeful that Slippery Elm Bark may help with this by giving his digestive tract a protective coating. I believe that the stomach acid theory would explain why Dylan was sick on the 2 occaisions when I fed him using a slow feeder. He was anticipating the meal but it took him too long to get the food out.
> I had expected my vet to prescribe something to protect Dyl's digestive tract after he had his endoscopy but she didn't want to give anything before his biopsy results were back. The only observation made with the endoscopy was that his stomach bled very easily when touched with the endoscope. His biopsies didn't show any inflammatory cells.
> 
> Stomach bleeding easily? I wonder why that is?
> 
> I dont know how, but maybe this is a major part of the problem - even if there is no inflammation? Maybe its not so much a case of _excess_ acid but an abnormally sensitive reaction to it because of some weakness in the stomach lining?
> 
> Has Rosie had an endoscopy/ biopsies ?
> 
> Not yet. Its an option, but as she has improved a little, Im keeping that on hold for now.
> 
> Dylan has never had smelly poo though before starting the RCSC pouches would often have smelly wind. Other than the difference with the poo it certainly sounds to me as though Rosie and Dylan are suffering in the same way. Hopefully one of us can hit on a way of helping them both.


I hope so!



Forester said:


> Dylan and I are continuing to have problems which seem related to badly timed meals. He cried for food at 10.30 pm yesterday so I gave him an extra snack.This however was returned . 11.30 pm and 3.30 am meals eaten as scheduled but he then wakes me crying for food at 5.45am. I feed breakfast at 5.45 instead of 7am but then today's schedule is all out of kilter. Meals today are all being served early. The dilemma, do I feed strictly to time and risk him getting too hungry or do I feed when asked and risk him eating too much at once.
> 
> I wish I knew the answer, but if things are getting worse it maybe worth trying some antacids sooner than you were planning and see if that helps?
> 
> Are there other diets that can be tried that make him feel fuller with less volume I wonder?
> 
> LDK1/ buffie, How do you determine when and how much to feed. Do you find meal size critical?
> 
> Both my cats meal times were originally determined by our daily routine and havent really changed over the years except I have added the 3am feed for Rosie and moved their last feed from 9.30pm to 10pm  also to try to help Rosie. So thats: 3am, 8-8.30am, 12-12.30pm, 6pm and 10pm.
> 
> I definitely would not give Rosie a big meal in the morning. If I think that she might be feeling a bit sick (she might start eating a lot of grass beforehand) I may only give her half a meal and the rest 5-10 minutes later  that does seem to help sometimes.


I hope these answers are of some use. I wrote this before reading that youve just started the SEB. I am keeping everything crossed for you and Dylan that at last there will be some improvement!

Best wishes to all.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Slyv trust your instincts! Never done me much harm or even Riley!
> 
> I came home to a fur sausage in the hallway, huge poo in the tray and a starving cat !!
> 
> I'm getting evils now as I've not served supper yet!
> 
> Wish I could help more with vomitting cats &#55357;&#56862;


Thanks, Nicola . My instincts are to throw everything at it .This is categorically *not *what my vet recommends however she doesn't have to watch my lovely boy vomiting more and more frequently.

Poor Riley, Fancy making him wait for his meal, particularly after he gave you a fur ball and a huge poo in the tray. You are a bad slave ( not) . I wouldn't blame him if he plotted some runny poo after that negligence. or a wipe on the curtains.

I'm very, very glad that you don't have more experience with vomiting cats..
You are the font of all knowledge and the most incredible support to the rest of us as things stand.  Its just so so sad for you and Riley that you've gained this position through your, and Riley's misfortune. Seriously , I for one would have gone mad without you and I know that lots of the others feel exactly the same.

I'm so glad that I've started the Slippery Elm Bark ( not abbreviated out of consideration for Sarah  ). He's had 4 small doses now. It may or not be connected but this morning he's been incredibly turbocharged. He's been playing and racing around like a loony for 4 hours  with hardly a pause. A few minutes ago OH asked me what on earth have I given him.

love and positive vibes to all


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Please feel free to bypass my long post!


Certainly NOT !

It is highly valued and greatly appreciated. 

I will however reply later when I have time to sit and concentrate on my reply. I'm waiting for a delivery and don't want to have to abandon my post half way through.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks, Nicola . My instincts are to throw everything at it .This is categorically *not *what my vet recommends however she doesn't have to watch my lovely boy vomiting more and more frequently.
> 
> Poor Riley, Fancy making him wait for his meal, particularly after he gave you a fur ball and a huge poo in the tray. You are a bad slave ( not) . I wouldn't blame him if he plotted some runny poo after that negligence. or a wipe on the curtains.
> 
> I'm very, very glad that you don't have more experience with vomiting cats..
> You are the font of all knowledge and the most incredible support to the rest of us as things stand.  Its just so so sad for you and Riley that you've gained this position through your, and Riley's misfortune. Seriously , I for one would have gone mad without you and I know that lots of the others feel exactly the same.
> 
> I'm so glad that I've started the Slippery Elm Bark ( not abbreviated out of consideration for Sarah  ). He's had 4 small doses now. It may or not be connected but this morning he's been incredibly turbocharged. He's been playing and racing around like a loony for 4 hours  with hardly a pause. A few minutes ago OH asked me what on earth have I given him.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all


I second everything you have said  

I know I've said it before but, I'm so grateful for the advice and support, if I didn't have Nicola and the rest of you ladies I'd be at my wits end and still be feeding RCSC dry and cleaning dire rear off the walls, floor and everywhere else, I'm lucky I don't have curtains  and wouldn't be where we are now. I think I would have been carried away by the men in white coats a long time ago!

Roman was fine this morning  but decided to have a poo just as I was about to walk out the door, though he'd been telling the whole of Wycombe that he wanted to go 20 minutes before 

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> Hi Dylan n forrester
> Blue is fine. I would stick to set times. I never worry if my 2 go a little hungry but the rapid gorging got bluey in summer ie a straight in and all up again within 10/15 mins. I had let breakfast wait but they now go out about 6Am and feed at 8.
> We have just traded an xtrail for a Honda 4x4 but i don't miss the land rover generally.in the really bad weather my mini never let me down but a go in a friends discovery was awful..it slipped at the back.
> 
> Just bought the kits Xmas presents off zooplus...they are doing an advent give away.
> 
> Speak soon and warm hugs to all x


Thanks BC. . I think that you are right about sticking to the same times.  That way, Dylan and I are both going to know exactly where we are. I think that he's more likely to produce extra stomach acid if he anticipates getting fed early. It would also be a source of stress which we definitely don't need.

Its reassuring to know that your mini was trusty in bad weather. My concern is that I might get " beached " with the car if the snow is deep. The car is very low to the ground . It is however new, whereas the Landy was old so I can , at least be confident that it will start, fingers crossed.

It sounds as though Blue and Ivan are going to have a very busy and enjoyable Christmas. I hope that their presents will be wrapped so that they can enjoy the paper too.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I second everything you have said
> 
> I know I've said it before but, I'm so grateful for the advice and support, if I didn't have Nicola and the rest of you ladies I'd be at my wits end and still be feeding RCSC dry and cleaning dire rear off the walls, floor and everywhere else, I'm lucky I don't have curtains  and wouldn't be where we are now. I think I would have been carried away by the men in white coats a long time ago!
> 
> Roman was fine this morning  but decided to have a poo just as I was about to walk out the door, though he'd been telling the whole of Wycombe that he wanted to go 20 minutes before
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


I'm sorry but I don't know how to multi-quote from the same post.

Thanks for seconding me . The support from the members of this forum and particularly this thread is absolutely amazing.

You did make me laugh with the account of Roman notifying his intentions this morning. :lol::lol::lol: I'm quite a way from Wycombe but I did think that I faintly heard a cat shouting earlier on. :lol:

I'm glad that Roman's fine.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm sorry but I don't know how to multi-quote from the same post.
> 
> Thanks for seconding me . The support from the members of this forum and particularly this thread is absolutely amazing.
> 
> You did make me laugh with the account of Roman notifying his intentions this morning. :lol::lol::lol: I'm quite a way from Wycombe but I did think that I faintly heard a cat shouting earlier on. :lol:
> 
> I'm glad that Roman's fine.


The support is amazing Sylv :thumbup1:

I wouldn't be surprised he's so loud   it's not like the shouting we had when he had dire rear, it's i want to let everyone know I want a poo! :lol: but it's like he's far to busy to go there and then. Such a funny boy


----------



## nicolaa123

I guess it's just Riley and I are all about the bass 

We are booked in for the annual get visit in a couple of weeks. Full MOT!! I'm going to ask about his huge hunger issues and whether we can stretch his meds a bit, but I'm sure she will not really want to do this but I'm think to every 8 days then 9 then 10 over a long period just to lessen the meds going in if we can..

Really hope seb works for Dylan (he he) and it improves the vomiting otherwise I would really be tempted in trying the cholrambucil with Dylan to see if any change..

Ldk1 very much agree set meal times do help Riley also, although he would like it if there were more of them!!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I guess it's just Riley and I are all about the bass
> 
> We are booked in for the annual get visit in a couple of weeks. Full MOT!! I'm going to ask about his huge hunger issues and whether we can stretch his meds a bit, but I'm sure she will not really want to do this but I'm think to every 8 days then 9 then 10 over a long period just to lessen the meds going in if we can..
> 
> Really hope seb works for Dylan (he he) and it improves the vomiting otherwise I would really be tempted in trying the cholrambucil with Dylan to see if any change..
> 
> Ldk1 very much agree set meal times do help Riley also, although he would like it if there were more of them!!


You've got me singing now  

Hope all goes well with Riley's MOT  I've worked out that Roman is better eating little and often, he's on 6 meals a day and eating around 300g at the moment. I feel he needs to put a bit of weight on as he's getting longer and looking and feeling boney.

We can all share my Seb  

xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I guess it's just Riley and I are all about the bass
> 
> We are booked in for the annual get visit in a couple of weeks. Full MOT!! I'm going to ask about his huge hunger issues and whether we can stretch his meds a bit, but I'm sure she will not really want to do this but I'm think to every 8 days then 9 then 10 over a long period just to lessen the meds going in if we can..
> 
> Really hope seb works for Dylan (he he) and it improves the vomiting otherwise I would really be tempted in trying the cholrambucil with Dylan to see if any change..
> 
> Ldk1 very much agree set meal times do help Riley also, although he would like it if there were more of them!!


Fingers crossed for Riley's MOT. 

I'm not that up on chlorambucil, although I did some research when you suggested it for Dyl, Can you explain how it would impact on hunger / food absorption? Have you changed the timing of Riley's meds before?. Do you feel that his system could cope with an increase in food intake?

I am hopeful that the Slippery Elm will help Dylan although suspect that it could take quite a while. I've felt that his GI tract could do with some sort of protection ever since his endoscopy although my vet didn't seem to consider the bleeding of his stomach at the time to be of great significance. I have a feeling that the pred, whilst suppressing the immune system may also have caused additional irritation to his GI tract. He couldn't take a 5mg daily dose as it gave him dire rear.



sarahecp said:


> You've got me singing now
> 
> Hope all goes well with Riley's MOT  I've worked out that Roman is better eating little and often, he's on 6 meals a day and eating around 300g at the moment. I feel he needs to put a bit of weight on as he's getting longer and looking and feeling boney.
> 
> We can all share my Seb
> 
> xx


I'm glad that its not only me who feeds 6 meals. I expect that Roman is behaving like a lanky teenager eating for England but growing up rather than out.  Can I ask what times you feed him now?

I'm considering going to even more but smaller meals with Dylan. He's been sick at some stage today though I don't know when. He's quiet tonight though was an absolute maniac for *6 hours * this morning. I've had to wash his bed tonight where he'd been ill and whilst I was doing that he danced around on the laptop ( probably revenge for me washing his bed). I've had to use system restore to get it going again. sigh.

LDK1 I haven't forgotten that I'm going to reply to your post from earlier on. I am waiting till I get the opportunity to concentrate on my reply i e when Dylan isn't trying to help me type.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Depending what time I get up, but these past couple of weeks I've been feeding

Breakfast around, between 4:30-5am
9am auto feeder 
12pm auto feeder
Between 4-5pm when I get home 
7pm 
10pm 

No food overnight but might start doing this so I don't get woken at 3am!! But when I do give breakfast Roman doesn't eat it like he's starving. I've also noticed since feeding the skippy he doesn't ravenously eat like he did with the Felix, he eats quite normally, when I was feeding the Felix I'd give him 2 plates with a pouch each on and he'd eat them like he'd not eaten for days and that was all the time. So my theory is something is working to slow him down. It could be the quality of the food and no sugar like the Felix  I don't know. 

He's defiantly got used to this routine of no food being left down all the time but Frank and Seb haven't yet but I'm sure like with everything, it takes time. 

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

This is a good site that explains how meds work
Update on managing inflammatory bowel disease and intestinal lymphoma in cats (Proceedings)

I like this one too

https://www.vetlearn.com/_preview?_cms.fe.previewId=a6624dc0-f0fc-11e0-bfb0-0050568d3693

Point 22 explains how it works much better than I can

Feline Internal Medicine Secrets - Michael R. Lappin - Google Books

Just thinking tho did Dylan and or Rosie have their colobum levels checked? B12 injections may help also..


----------



## Forester

Thanks ladies 

Sarah, I'm sure that the superior quality of the skippy compared to the Felix explains why Roman finds it more satisfying. I would imagine that the cereals/ sugars in the Felix were just passing through.

I think that you've worked out an excellent feeding schedule . It obviously suits Roman.

I've moved on to regular 3 hourly feeding today. His rabbit is split into 5 meals and the RCSC into 3. I'm adding 1 teaspoon of ( thick ) Slippery Elm Jelly to each of the rabbit meals. I'm considering trying either all rabbit ( has the continual feeding of chicken caused the worsening of his vomiting ? ) or all chicken ( he was best on RCSC initially and not bad on RC Gastrointestinal ). Not sure which way to go.

Thanks for all of that info Nicola. .Its very kind of you to take the time to find and post the links .Its going to take me a while to digest all of that. I've seen 2 of the articles before but they contain so much information I have so much more to take in ( only a little sticks in my brain each time I read them ).

When does Riley have his MOT booked for ?. Fingers crossed that he will fly through it. 

LDK1, I'm hoping to get time to reply to your last post tomorrow. I've had a plumber destroying and then reconstructing our hot water system today . Its left me feeling mentally jaded. 

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves . Hoping that you've all had a vomit and runny poo free day and that long may it continue.

Edited to add : As far as I understand Dylan's cobalamin level was normal, everything was normal .


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> LDK1, I'm hoping to get time to reply to your last post tomorrow. I've had a plumber destroying and then reconstructing our hot water system today . Its left me feeling mentally jaded.
> .


Hi there,

There's no hurry to reply to any of my comments - especially when you've got so much going on!

Maybe give yourself a mini break - preferably with a little glass of your favourite tipple! <hic>


----------



## Forester

LDK1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> There's no hurry to reply to any of my comments - especially when you've got so much going on!
> 
> Maybe give yourself a mini break - preferably with a little glass of your favourite tipple! <hic>


Thanks LDK1

That tipple sounds so appealing. I've PMed you, I hope that you don't mind. I'll do a proper reply when I get a chance.

Dyl's been sick again today. I'm telling myself not to panic. I understand that the Slippery Elm can take a couple of weeks to show any improvement. I've discussed the situation with OH as he's getting upset about the deterioration. We're going to put him just on chicken based food for a while, measure out a quantity for each day and keep feeding a teaspoonful or two at a time.

Fingers crossed that everyone else is having a better day.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Thanks LDK1
> 
> That tipple sounds so appealing. I've PMed you, I hope that you don't mind. I'll do a proper reply when I get a chance.
> 
> Dyl's been sick again today. I'm telling myself not to panic. I understand that the Slippery Elm can take a couple of weeks to show any improvement. I've discussed the situation with OH as he's getting upset about the deterioration. We're going to put him just on chicken based food for a while, measure out a quantity for each day and keep feeding a teaspoonful or two at a time.
> 
> Fingers crossed that everyone else is having a better day.


I can't remember sorry if you hVe tried the z/d the wet is yuck but the dry is more palatable I know not ideal but I would try it to see if the hydrolysed chicken would help, it could also be linked to the reduction in the pred just may take some time to settle.

if it was me I would try the z/d or even try the goat to see if the change in food offers some respite if it didn't I would try another drug. How often is he vomiting now? What meds is he currently on and what food?


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I can't remember sorry if you hVe tried the z/d the wet is yuck but the dry is more palatable I know not ideal but I would try it to see if the hydrolysed chicken would help, it could also be linked to the reduction in the pred just may take some time to settle.
> 
> if it was me I would try the z/d or even try the goat to see if the change in food offers some respite if it didn't I would try another drug. How often is he vomiting now? What meds is he currently on and what food?


Yes , we tried the z/d wet ( my vets recommendation ) . He took 2 tiny bites , leaving what looked like dental impressions in plastic and then refused to eat *anything*. This was how I came to start feeding the boiled rabbit. He refused everything else. . I have previously refused ,point blank, to feed dry food. I will try some more wet foods first but realise that I might eventually have to consider dry.

I think that part of the problem is my impatience . I know that I need to wait a while to see whether the SEB helps .However, each time Dyl vomits it emphasises to me that he's now vomiting more often than he ever has before, (with the exception of when I tried the kangaroo). He's vomiting about every second day now. When he started the pred he was going 2 weeks between vomits. I know its not helping that OH gets very stressed when Dylan is sick. He ( OH ) is not at all well and I'm stressing about both of them.

TBH I am too frightened to try the goat at the moment, though was very, very grateful for the opportunity to have it available. With the kangaroo he was O K whilst eating the first can but then became rapidly worse. The day I abandoned the skippy and rang my vet to request the endoscopy we were both concerned that we would lose him . He had gone downhill so quickly. He didn't want to eat and if he did eat he was sick. He spent his time hiding which is so unlike Dylan. Once back on the RCSC he improved dramatically. He's not on any prescribed meds now but I started giving the slippery elm a couple of days ago. He's on 100g RCSC wet and 110g boiled rabbit each day.

We've decided to put him back on all RCSC wet with possibly some other sensitive chicken based food. I've been given a couple of tins of kattovit hypoallergenic chicken which I'm going to try. If he seems o k with that I will get some more.

I've had twitchy fingers again so posted before I meant to. I think that its because I am so stressed at the moment.

Thanks for your help and support. I really do appreciate it. Can't find smilies as I'm editing.

Love to all


----------



## nicolaa123

I'm just thinking out aloud, when Riley had a bout of very bad sickness he was given a long lasting injection to stop the vomiting plus some syrup, can't think for the life of me what it was and can't find it in my notes 

Might be worth asking your vet about this as In what the injection or syrup could be ( I will ask my vet when I see her) and if it could just give some respite so his stomach etc can just have a break and the inflammation could reduce.

I don't think his problem will be controlled by food only, considering that he very much improved on pred and now he is off it he is going back wards you and your vet need to find some med that will support him. Food sounds to me like it's going to be a secondary thing in all this.

I would try some z/d dry and just see if this helps, it's chicken based so kind of in line with your plans..

Oh and sorry to hear your oh is poorly.. Hope him and Dylan see some improvement soon


----------



## koekemakranka

Hi how are things with the furred ones? Seems some are still struggling.
Amazing news: it appears Girly has finally recovered (touch wood). She is now on meds every second day, and her normal appetite is restored. So happy. It has been a daily battle since August but I think she is going to be OK. :001_smile: 
I wish for similar good news for the kitties here that are still poorly.


----------



## LDK1

nicolaa123 said:


> I'm just thinking out aloud, when Riley had a bout of very bad sickness he was given a long lasting injection to stop the vomiting plus some syrup, can't think for the life of me what it was and can't find it in my notes
> 
> Might be worth asking your vet about this as In what the injection or syrup could be ( I will ask my vet when I see her) and if it could just give some respite so his stomach etc can just have a break and the inflammation could reduce.
> 
> I don't think his problem will be controlled by food only, considering that he very much improved on pred and now he is off it he is going back wards you and your vet need to find some med that will support him. Food sounds to me like it's going to be a secondary thing in all this.
> 
> I would try some z/d dry and just see if this helps, it's chicken based so kind of in line with your plans..
> 
> Oh and sorry to hear your oh is poorly.. Hope him and Dylan see some improvement soon


When Rosie stopped eating and had a temperature a few weeks ago she was given four different injections to try to cover all bases and get things under control quickly. One of them was an anti-sickness jab called *Cerenia. *Her appetite returned as soon as we got her back from the vets and she wasn't sick for the next 7 days.

I agree that I don't think food alone is going to solve this issue. Like I said in previous posts, I think the antacids that Meeko has could well be worth a try - or even the Ranitidine again. The important thing with antacids is that they really are more effective if given on an empty stomach long before a meal.

It's almost impossible to pill Rosie, so I had to crush the Ranitidine in a very small portion of sardines (this was before any diet trials) which she had last thing at night and around 5 hours before the autofeeder opened at 3am. Her vomiting rate reduced quite quickly on a low dose.


----------



## Forester

Hi LDK1,

Thanks for your brilliant post 4092. It is extremely helpful.

I have absolutely no idea how to multi-quote from the same post so will just follow with some comments/ observations.

I had initially thought that Rosie and Dylan seemed to be following exactly the same pattern but now I'm seeing lots of differences. I was surprised when you said that Rosie's symptoms came on suddenly. Dylan's were quite insidious in onset.

I am so pleased that you appear to have made a lot of progress since Rosie's vomiting started in May. With Dylan things have got gradually worse although with short periods of great improvement. These came after starting the RCSC, after the endoscopy and after starting the pred.

Rosie's pattern , in terms of the times of day when she vomits, sounds almost identical to how Dylan was before I started the ranitidine. For some odd reason, since then he has vomited at any time of day or night . It is , however always within about 30 mins of eating.

I feel that the tendency for Dylan's stomach to bleed easily during endoscopy *must *be significant, although my vet did not consider it important. It was the only unusual/ abnormal finding from Dylan's bloods, x rays, endoscopy or biopsies.

I agree with you keeping endoscopy on hold for Rosie. You are making progress so I would not see an urgent need. 

OH and I have decided to attack the issue of meal times and meal sizes by feeding very small meals , almost on demand. My only condition is that he must go at least an hour between meals.

If this change, along with food changes and Slippery Elm Bark do not bring about an improvement I will take Dylan back to my vets. My vet and I have already discussed that he may need to go back on the pred. Even on the pred. ( at the dosage which he could take ) Dylan was vomiting at about the level that he was at when I first took him to the vet last January.

My vet thought that my idea of trying low fat, low carb and low offal diets were worth trying although the foods she suggested were from Hills. I am sure that I should be able to find better quality diets than the Hills.

Did you try Rosie with the z/d dry? If so, how did you find it ?

Although we seem to have got no-where with Dylan, in fact have gone backwards, I'm taking heart from the fact that , to a stranger, he appears an absolute picture of health.

I have fingers, and everything else, crossed that you and Rosie continue to make progress. 

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

Sylv, I'm sorry to hear you feel you're going backwards with Dylan  as I don't have any experience with the vomiting side I'm sorry I cannot advise, but want to let you know that I'm thinking of you and really hope that Dyl starts to improve really soon. 

I think Nicola and LDK1 have given you some good advice. 


Koekemakranka, I'm so pleased to hear about Girly   long may it continue 


Things are still ok with Roman 


I hope all masters, mistresses and slave are all doing ok xx


----------



## LDK1

Forester said:


> Hi LDK1,
> 
> Did you try Rosie with the z/d dry? If so, how did you find it ?


Hi, yes - as she refused the z/d wet.

She enjoyed eating it for the 6 week trial and I still use it for the overnight feeds and for reward/treat purposes as I see it as a 'neutral' product. Her smelly poos improved greatly on it.

The main down-side was her lack of energy, despite starting to drink water. She also threw up huge hairballs along with the food, something she had never done before - but that did stop eventually and the vomiting did reduce to 1 to 3 times a week.

I think it was useful in that it told me that a specific protein was probably *not* the cause of Rosie' vomiting, but the improved smelly poo and reduced vomiting meant that there was something about it that was more agreeable than the wet foods she was eating before.


----------



## Forester

Evening All,

Thanks for all of your recent posts offering suggestions which might help Dylan. They are greatly appreciated. I have , however , decided to take a sort of mini break from posting until I feel a little less stressed. I think that I'm thinking too much trying to decide what to do to help him. I'm going to try to detach myself from the vomiting situation for a while . I'm going to enjoy the lovely boy that I have and take things as they come.

Much love to all.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Evening All,
> 
> Thanks for all of your recent posts offering suggestions which might help Dylan. They are greatly appreciated. I have , however , decided to take a sort of mini break from posting until I feel a little less stressed. I think that I'm thinking too much trying to decide what to do to help him. I'm going to try to detach myself from the vomiting situation for a while . I'm going to enjoy the lovely boy that I have and take things as they come.
> 
> Much love to all.


Sylv I think that is a good idea,as I'm sure you have noticed I have done exactly that.
Whilst I appreciate the input of everyone on the thread sometimes I find I need to take a break and just let Meeko "do his own thing".
Often the more we think about IBD the more confused and down we become ,so a break away from it all can help to recharge the batteries.
We all know if we need help/to talk etc everyone is only a PM away 
,stick around on the other sections though.
Love to you, Dylan and all other IBD kitties and slaves xx


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Sylv I think that is a good idea,as I'm sure you have noticed I have done exactly that.
> Whilst I appreciate the input of everyone on the thread sometimes I find I need to take a break and just let Meeko "do his own thing".
> Often the more we think about IBD the more confused and down we become ,so a break away from it all can help to recharge the batteries.
> We all know if we need help/to talk etc everyone is only a PM away
> ,stick around on the other sections though.
> Love to you, Dylan and all other IBD kitties and slaves xx


I *will *be sticking around . I regard you all as my friends . I'll be reading this thread to keep up with how everyone is doing and maybe making an occaisional post. I just won't be deliberating over what to do to help Dylan. I'm just going to chill a little and take that as it comes. I will be participating fully with the rest of the forum and will be at the end of a PM if anyone wants me for *anything*.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all

I totally understand about having a break from this thread, I sometimes find it a bit overwhelming, if that's the right word to use, a lot to take in and think about and it does overload my brain and confuses me (it don't take much ) and I get upset not just for Roman but the other cats and slaves on here 

I really am so grateful for all the help and advice from you ladies 

I'm also at the end of a pm too 

Lots of love to all and see you in the other sections xx xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm also at the end of a pm too
> 
> Lots of love to all and see you in the other sections xx xx


I *am *coming back. :lol: I'm just taking a short break to build myself up mentally for more IBD battles in the future.

Your posts and messages of support have overwhelmed me  bringing on *lots* more tears. That's telling me that I really do need to chill.

Love to all, as always


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I *am *coming back. :lol: I'm just taking a short break to build myself up mentally for more IBD battles in the future.
> 
> Your posts and messages of support have overwhelmed me  bringing on *lots* more tears. That's telling me that I really do need to chill.
> 
> Love to all, as always


I know you are  but you know what I mean 

Now go and chill  and give Dylan a big cuddle from me xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Forrester enjoy your boy and take advantage of the nip in the air to need to cuddle him. Love Susan blue n Ivan xxx


----------



## bluecordelia

Just when you think its ok we have had a couple of furball sickies followed by 2 vomits a few days later.

I am hoping this is a blip caused by a furball. We had this in summer a couple of times. Blue was very windy last night and mewed when i petted her. She has a ferocious appetite at the moment and is mithering for food. In herself she is well but I am more used to dire rear than sickness.

Hope everyone else ok x


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Just when you think its ok we have had a couple of furball sickies followed by 2 vomits a few days later.
> 
> I am hoping this is a blip caused by a furball. We had this in summer a couple of times. Blue was very windy last night and mewed when i petted her. She has a ferocious appetite at the moment and is mithering for food. In herself she is well but I am more used to dire rear than sickness.
> 
> Hope everyone else ok x


I'm sorry to hear Blue has been sick  keeping everything crossed that it's just a blip.

I think the colder weather is making them eat more, I've been giving Roman a little bit extra and he's been fine and today is day 3 of no pumpkin mixed with the kangaroo. I've noticed his poo's are not as big since no pumpkin 

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## jenny armour

update - Charlie's poo is reverting back to what it was like two weeks ago, and she is pooing everywhere, help!!


----------



## sarahecp

jenny armour said:


> update - Charlie's poo is reverting back to what it was like two weeks ago, and she is pooing everywhere, help!!


I'm so sorry to hear Charlie has gone backwards  I do feel for you. Roman wasn't pooing everywhere just treading it everywhere, I'd sit in tears at 2 and 3 in the morning and scrubbing and cleaning floors at that time.

Have any of the results come back from the vets yet?

I did find that when I gave Roman the Panacur his dire rear got worse, my thoughts were it would get better, but going by he had giardia. when this happened I rang the vet and they told me it would be like this as the Panacur pushes everything through them. But when it continued and didn't get better his poo was tested again and was clear for all parasites. He was given an antibiotic called Veraflox, still it didn't clear up. More poo samples later, still nothing, given Metrodanizole, again nothing, that's when we were referred to Davies for further investigations.

I really hope your vet can help or refer Charlie and things start to improve really soon.

xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi jenny

Metronidazole stopped blue as i remember dreading the course finishing and her going back to how she was. We needed a break as the constant wet bottom and runs made her so so sore. I would recommend snipping any excess fur off. Blue is medium long haired and it helped keeping her clean. 

I always think you should add warm water to food even wet to increase their intake,stop dehydration and help sooth the gut

X


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all 

Just a little update on Roman, he's still doing ok  still eating the skippy  

He goes for another blood test on Wednesday and I need to update Patricia on 29 Dec. fingers crossed he'll be off the Pred in the New Year. 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok and ready for Christmas  xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Riley still acts like his throat has been cut and wants to eat the entire worlds supply of skippy! He is literally hoovering it down with out chewing or even taking a breath.

So then no surprise when I come home to a pile of sick :roll eyes. Vets on Wednesday so willl have a chat with her, I think he might be going into early dementia he seems to forget he has just eaten..and wants more and he is miowing so so much..we will see..


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Riley still acts like his throat has been cut and wants to eat the entire worlds supply of skippy! He is literally hoovering it down with out chewing or even taking a breath.
> 
> So then no surprise when I come home to a pile of sick :roll eyes. Vets on Wednesday so willl have a chat with her, I think he might be going into early dementia he seems to forget he has just eaten..and wants more and he is miowing so so much..we will see..


Riley sounds exactly like what Roman used to be like, 2 plates of Felix scoffing it down like there's no tomorrow and still wanted more 

Hope all goes well on Wednesday, will be thinking of you both and sending lots of positive vibes xxx

Let us know how Riley gets on.


----------



## bluecordelia

jenny armour said:


> update - Charlie's poo is reverting back to what it was like two weeks ago, and she is pooing everywhere, help!!


How is Charlie doing?


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> How is Charlie doing?


I hope she's doing ok Jenny.


----------



## nicolaa123

Ok so he is 4.29 kg so still maintaining, we are going to monitor the hunger if no better in a month he will have bloods done to test thyroid etc but as clinically he is doing very well we will wait and see how he goes for now! 

Teeth, feet, temp, eyes, heart all perfect &#128529;


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Ok so he is 4.29 kg so still maintaining, we are going to monitor the hunger if no better in a month he will have bloods done to test thyroid etc but as clinically he is doing very well we will wait and see how he goes for now!
> 
> Teeth, feet, temp, eyes, heart all perfect 😑


That's great news   I'm so pleased all went well for Riley :thumbup:

Do you think the hunger has got anything to do with the weather turning colder? Or did it start before?


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> That's great news   I'm so pleased all went well for Riley :thumbup:
> 
> Do you think the hunger has got anything to do with the weather turning colder? Or did it start before?


Since got colder..another reason we will monitor him and thank you!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Since got colder..another reason we will monitor him and thank you!


Fingers crossed it's nothing and he's just hungry


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Ok so he is 4.29 kg so still maintaining, we are going to monitor the hunger if no better in a month he will have bloods done to test thyroid etc but as clinically he is doing very well we will wait and see how he goes for now!
> 
> Teeth, feet, temp, eyes, heart all perfect &#55357;&#56849;


Fantastic news. 

Might an igloo type bed or fleece lined bed , positioned near a radiator, help him to maintain his body temperature and conserve some of the energy obtained from his food. ? Just thinking aloud. 

Love to all


----------



## jenny armour

just to let you know that I lost charley last sunday. she did have diarrhea which they had managed to stop because she was on a drip, but she wasn't responding to food and hadn't eaten since the Thursday before


----------



## buffie

Jenny so very sorry to read that you lost Charley  Run free gorgeous girl xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Jenny so sorry for your loss, sleep tight little one xx


----------



## sarahecp

Oh Jenny, I'm so so sorry to hear this  thinking of you xx

RIP Charley, run free beautiful girl xx


----------



## LDK1

Oh my, so sorry to just read about Charley.

Take care.


----------



## Forester

Oh Jenny, I'm so sorry to hear this. Please look after yourself.

Sleep tight sweet Charlie .


----------



## jenny armour

thank you she was 16 and although she had this problem for sometime, it was very sudden in the end


----------



## sarahecp

jenny armour said:


> thank you she was 16 and although she had this problem for sometime, it was very sudden in the end


Thinking of you and sending ((((hugs)))) xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Ok..day one of trying the ostrich, he has had it before (was kindly sent a tin) can't think he had a bad reaction..I'm doing a teaspoon per meal, we will see how he goes..he has been really ok last week or so apart from small blip after vets (stress I would put that down to)

He is so happy to have a new flavour, I can see him smiling  I so hope this is a good food.............


----------



## sarahecp

Fingers crossed and hope all goes well with Riley and the ostrich 

Today is day one for Roman and the rabbit, the same as you I'm giving one teaspoonful per meal, he really liked it and scoffed it down 

Gave some to Seb he liked it too, Frank turned his nose up! Think Frank and Seb have swapped places in the fussy department


----------



## sarahecp

The rabbit doesn't like Roman 

Just got back from the vets with Frank to a runny-ish smelly poo in the litter tray  No more rabbit for Ro. 

I got up this morning to a firm one, so it's got to be the rabbit. 


I hope everyone else is doing ok and Riley is ok with the ostrich xx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> The rabbit doesn't like Roman
> 
> Just got back from the vets with Frank to a runny-ish smelly poo in the litter tray  No more rabbit for Ro.
> 
> I got up this morning to a firm one, so it's got to be the rabbit.
> 
> I hope everyone else is doing ok and Riley is ok with the ostrich xx


Early days, early days..saying no more 

Shame about the rabbit with Roman...


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Early days, early days..saying no more
> 
> Shame about the rabbit with Roman...


I'm saying no more!  but fingers crossed 

At least we tried the rabbit and I know it's that, well hopefully it is as he's not had anything else.

ETA he's just had watery dire rear  the poor boy got himself into a bit of a mess, no wiping bums on curtains, but wiping paws on my dressing gown 

I really hope it doesn't last too long, I'm going to give him some pumpkin with his next meal.


----------



## Vienna1

Hi everyone, I've been trying to read through this thread for some insight into dealing with IBD. One of our cats was diagnosed as suffering from a moderately severe form last week. He was started on steroids last Monday evening and the difference in him was remarkable initially. He went from refusing to eat to seeking out food and even gained 50g in just a couple of days. Unfortunately this hasn't lasted his appetite seems to have diminished again and his weight has dropped again even further this time. It looks like syringe feeding might have to start again! We are due back at the vets next Monday for a check up as the medication was initially for two weeks. 

I'm wondering is it something anyone else experienced with the steroids working so quickly then just seeming to stop? Although they do still seem to be having an effect on his tummy problems. Feeling a bit devastated at the moment as after months of worry and thinking the worst we were so happy to have our happy boy back last week and whilst we knew it wasn't a cure we thought perhaps it was going to be easily managed for him. Just hoping someone may have a similar experience that had a positive outcome, his weight loss is a major worry at the moment.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone, I've been trying to read through this thread for some insight into dealing with IBD. One of our cats was diagnosed as suffering from a moderately severe form last week. He was started on steroids last Monday evening and the difference in him was remarkable initially. He went from refusing to eat to seeking out food and even gained 50g in just a couple of days. Unfortunately this hasn't lasted his appetite seems to have diminished again and his weight has dropped again even further this time. It looks like syringe feeding might have to start again! We are due back at the vets next Monday for a check up as the medication was initially for two weeks.
> 
> I'm wondering is it something anyone else experienced with the steroids working so quickly then just seeming to stop? Although they do still seem to be having an effect on his tummy problems. Feeling a bit devastated at the moment as after months of worry and thinking the worst we were so happy to have our happy boy back last week and whilst we knew it wasn't a cure we thought perhaps it was going to be easily managed for him. Just hoping someone may have a similar experience that had a positive outcome, his weight loss is a major worry at the moment.


Hi Vienna, I'm sorry to hear your boy has IBD and that he has lost weight and not eating  I understand you being concerned and worried.

When Roman first started the Prednesoline it had no affect on him, he continued to have dire rear, I think this was also to do with the food he was eating too, the dose was increased and I changed his food to a novel protein of kangaroo, he was also given chlorambucil to take. A combination of the meds and food he has been doing really well.

In all the months he'd had these problems he didn't lose any weight or gain any and his appetite was good.

I'm sorry I don't have any experience so unable to advise, but hopefully one of the other lovely ladies will be along to advise/help you out.

Keeping everything crossed he starts to eat something, if not it may be worth giving your vet a call today just for some advice, bearing in mind it's Christmas tomorrow and they will only have emergency vets on for the next couple of days.

Just want to wish you all the best with your boy (what's his name?) and hope all goes well at the vets on Monday x

Please keep us updated.


----------



## sarahecp

Morning all,

Roman had another watery poo last night and was also sick  the sick was watery food and fur. 

No poo overnight or this morning but sicked up water this morning. He's had a tiny bit of breakfast but not too keen on eating, he was very quiet and sleepy last night and sitting hunched over. He's fine in himself this morning though. 

I'll update later. 

Fingers crossed 

xx


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Hi Vienna, I'm sorry to hear your boy has IBD and that he has lost weight and not eating  I understand you being concerned and worried.
> 
> When Roman first started the Prednesoline it had no affect on him, he continued to have dire rear, I think this was also to do with the food he was eating too, the dose was increased and I changed his food to a novel protein of kangaroo, he was also given chlorambucil to take. A combination of the meds and food he has been doing really well.
> 
> In all the months he'd had these problems he didn't lose any weight or gain any and his appetite was good.
> 
> I'm sorry I don't have any experience so unable to advise, but hopefully one of the other lovely ladies will be along to advise/help you out.
> 
> Keeping everything crossed he starts to eat something, if not it may be worth giving your vet a call today just for some advice, bearing in mind it's Christmas tomorrow and they will only have emergency vets on for the next couple of days.
> 
> Just want to wish you all the best with your boy (what's his name?) and hope all goes well at the vets on Monday x
> 
> Please keep us updated.


Hi Sarahecp thank you for your reply. Monty ate his breakfast this morning so I'm thankful for that. I'm wondering if he has a furball as he is notorious for stopping eating when he has one even when he was completely healthy. He still looks happy and comfortable. When I say comfortable he's lying on his bed looking so chilled but ten days ago he was just hunched up and didn't even seem to be able to sleep properly.

We are lucky our vets has 24 hour accident and emergency 365 days of the year so we have the peace of mind that we can just get in the car and go straight to the hospital at any time and its only ten minutes away.

From what the specialist said we are trying the steroids first then will look and see how he's responding so perhaps on Monday we will get a little further. I was told that IBD affecting large intestine rarely causes weight loss but upper does and it seems poor Monty has both affected from what we were told.

Hope Roman is feeling well, he's beautiful.

Here is Monty he seems quite relaxed!


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Morning all,
> 
> Roman had another watery poo last night and was also sick  the sick was watery food and fur.
> 
> No poo overnight or this morning but sicked up water this morning. He's had a tiny bit of breakfast but not too keen on eating, he was very quiet and sleepy last night and sitting hunched over. He's fine in himself this morning though.
> 
> I'll update later.
> 
> Fingers crossed
> 
> xx


Hi just saw your post about Roman after I'd posted. Sorry to see he wasn't too good last night, hope he is feeling better today. They are such a worry when they are poorly.


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone, I've been trying to read through this thread for some insight into dealing with IBD. One of our cats was diagnosed as suffering from a moderately severe form last week. He was started on steroids last Monday evening and the difference in him was remarkable initially. He went from refusing to eat to seeking out food and even gained 50g in just a couple of days. Unfortunately this hasn't lasted his appetite seems to have diminished again and his weight has dropped again even further this time. It looks like syringe feeding might have to start again! We are due back at the vets next Monday for a check up as the medication was initially for two weeks.
> 
> I'm wondering is it something anyone else experienced with the steroids working so quickly then just seeming to stop? Although they do still seem to be having an effect on his tummy problems. Feeling a bit devastated at the moment as after months of worry and thinking the worst we were so happy to have our happy boy back last week and whilst we knew it wasn't a cure we thought perhaps it was going to be easily managed for him. Just hoping someone may have a similar experience that had a positive outcome, his weight loss is a major worry at the moment.


Hi Vienna. I'm sorry that you are in a position to be posting on this thread but wanted to make you welcome. I'm "sort of having a break from the thread at the moment " but felt the need to post as I've had an experience which " might" offer you some insight as to what may have happened with your poor boy.

My boy only has a presumptive diagnosis of IBD. All his tests have produced " normal " results although I declined to put him through a full thickness biopsy which my vet was pushing for. Dylan was put onto steroids , initially 2.5 mg prednisolone daily in August. This seemed to help partially ( Dylan is a vomiter ) but not completely. My vet doubled the dose however this larger dose caused severe dire rear ( sorry , please excuse spelling ! ). It was obviously causing irritation to Dylan's digestive tract. Could it be that Monty has had a similar experience, that the steroids initially helped but then caused more inflammation?. Perhaps Monty would gain benefit from a lower dose of steroids.

This information may not be relevant to your situation, Vienna, but I felt that I needed to highlight it just in case. I truly hope that you can find a solution for Monty.

I won't post re other IBDers today except to say that I am thinking of you all daily. I'm anticipating posting again soon . I " think" that we have a major breakthrough with Dylan but I want to give it a little longer before I open my big mouth 

I wish you and your masters and mistresses a very happy Christmas and improved health for everyone in 2015. Love to all, as always.


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone, I've been trying to read through this thread for some insight into dealing with IBD. One of our cats was diagnosed as suffering from a moderately severe form last week. He was started on steroids last Monday evening and the difference in him was remarkable initially. He went from refusing to eat to seeking out food and even gained 50g in just a couple of days. Unfortunately this hasn't lasted his appetite seems to have diminished again and his weight has dropped again even further this time. It looks like syringe feeding might have to start again! We are due back at the vets next Monday for a check up as the medication was initially for two weeks.
> 
> I'm wondering is it something anyone else experienced with the steroids working so quickly then just seeming to stop? Although they do still seem to be having an effect on his tummy problems. Feeling a bit devastated at the moment as after months of worry and thinking the worst we were so happy to have our happy boy back last week and whilst we knew it wasn't a cure we thought perhaps it was going to be easily managed for him. Just hoping someone may have a similar experience that had a positive outcome, his weight loss is a major worry at the moment.


Hi and welcome, I'm at work currently so will reply better later, few questions for you.

How is this affecting your cat ie vomit, diarreoh, you mention weight loss what was highest and lowest and what time frame, what is his body condition score.

What tests have the gets done to diagnose?

What food is he and has eaten?

Sarah, hopefully Roman is feeling better now, guess rabbit is off the menu


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> Hi Vienna. I'm sorry that you are in a position to be posting on this thread but wanted to make you welcome. I'm "sort of having a break from the thread at the moment " but felt the need to post as I've had an experience which " might" offer you some insight as to what may have happened with your poor boy.
> 
> My boy only has a presumptive diagnosis of IBD. All his tests have produced " normal " results although I declined to put him through a full thickness biopsy which my vet was pushing for. Dylan was put onto steroids , initially 2.5 mg prednisolone daily in August. This seemed to help partially ( Dylan is a vomiter ) but not completely. My vet doubled the dose however this larger dose caused severe dire rear ( sorry , please excuse spelling ! ). It was obviously causing irritation to Dylan's digestive tract. Could it be that Monty has had a similar experience, that the steroids initially helped but then caused more inflammation?. Perhaps Monty would gain benefit from a lower dose of steroids.
> 
> This information may not be relevant to your situation, Vienna, but I felt that I needed to highlight it just in case. I truly hope that you can find a solution for Monty.
> 
> I won't post re other IBDers today except to say that I am thinking of you all daily. I'm anticipating posting again soon . I " think" that we have a major breakthrough with Dylan but I want to give it a little longer before I open my big mouth
> 
> I wish you and your masters and mistresses a very happy Christmas and improved health for everyone in 2015. Love to all, as always.


Hi Forester, thank you for taking the time to reply.

Monty is currently on 10mg Prednidale a day which is split into two doses. Initially he was back to his normal self being playfull and eating more but over the last few days he's quieter and his appetite seems to have gone again. He is having almost solid poos though which is a great improvement, he was passing anywhere between cow pat and water with mucus and blood. The mucus has stopped and the blood too.

I got the impression this was an initial dosage to see how he responds I guess we will get to discuss his treatment in more detail on Monday. We haven't had a proper discussion with the vet since we got his results back. As he wanted to start Monty on medication ASAP he ran us at home with the results and to say he'd left a prescription to be picked up at the hospital to get him started immediately.

I really hope your major breakthrough you mention continues for Dylan, I'll be watching with interest for news of that.

Thank you again for your reply and Merry Christmas


----------



## Vienna1

nicolaa123 said:


> Hi and welcome, I'm at work currently so will reply better later, few questions for you.
> 
> How is this affecting your cat ie vomit, diarreoh, you mention weight loss what was highest and lowest and what time frame, what is his body condition score.
> 
> What tests have the gets done to diagnose?
> 
> What food is he and has eaten?
> 
> Sarah, hopefully Roman is feeling better now, guess rabbit is off the menu


Hi nicolaa123 thank you for taking the time to reply.

Sorry I didn't really explain what had happened to Monty very well. He first started with diarrhoea in September it seemed to come and go and Initially wasn't too bad but after he'd had it off and on over a week we went to the vets. She examined him and everything seemed fine she thought it was likely to be furball related and prescribed logic diastop and we sent away stool samples which came back all clear. The diastop worked well and after two days he produced an enormous furball. The diarrhoea returned though and continued. We were told it could have left him with a sensitivity and to try feeding purina HA. That gave him even worse diarrhoea. We were then recomended royal canin gastro intestinal which initially was great his poo was more sold he was eating and he started gaining weight. 
He then suddenly stopped eating completely so we were having to syringe feed. At this point his poo was getting more and more liquid with lots of mucus and fresh blood. I rushed him to the vets one morning when he was vomiting water and unable to control his Bowels when he vomited, he seemed so ill. We saw a different vet who examined him and said she could feel a mass in his abdomen and she wanted to refer him to a specialist. She took bloods and gave him a b12 injection in case that was the problem. She explained it could be a tumour or a lymph gland that was enlarged. He was booked to see the specialist a few days later for a scan and endoscopy. When we took him in for that he was quite bright having produced a furball again. We were given the blood results and everything came back completely normal apart from his folate level. However as he'd been on. Full fast for 24 hours prior he said this would also affect that. He was scanned then had an endoscopy there was no tumour thankfully the mass was enlarged lymph glands. a needle aspiration of this was taken and numerous biopsies from the length of his digestive tract. He also said his other abdominal orgNs looked completely normal and while he couldn't rule out lymphoma until the lab results came back he said he'd be surprised if it was and his feeling was IBD. The results back last Monday which came back as suspected as IBD.

Weight wise he was 3.8kg at the biggest but had lost a little prior to being unwell and settled at about 3.5kg. He's a long cat who never could have been considered chunky but was muscular. He's now just 2.99kg and visibly thin.

Food wise Monty has alway been a funny eater he will happily drink lots and lick gravy from food but will not eat much that's wet at all, he will happily go back and eat his food once its dried up. He gets schesir tuna or chicken everyday but only a small amount its more of a treat than a feed. Other than that he's on the rc gastro intestinal both wet and dry, the wet though he tends to just lick the gravy and leave the rest. 
Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Forester

Vienna, I'm happy to help, if I can. . I'm still reading all of the posts and am happy to respond to any questions of me that anyone might have. I've only really taken a break in respect of my own cat as my ( previous ) lack of progress was making me feel very down.

Have you been asked to keep Monty on a specific diet at the moment ? If not , I've found that a change in food , or even just a withdrawal of something in the diet, can help whenever Dylan has gone through a period of inappetence. This change was suggested to be by one of the vets at my practice. I believe the theory is that the cat associates a particular food with feeling ill so decides not to eat that food but will eat a different food. It has worked for me, might be worth trying if you are allowed flexibility over diet.

You and Monty, as well as all of the "regulars" will be in my thoughts over the next few days. If you are unable to get Monty to take food either willingly or by syringe , in your position,I would be thinking of ringing my vet's OOH service. I have my fingers crossed that Monty will soon start to eat again.

Please keep us updated.


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Hi nicolaa123 thank you for taking the time to reply.
> 
> Sorry I didn't really explain what had happened to Monty very well. He first started with diarrhoea in September it seemed to come and go and Initially wasn't too bad but after he'd had it off and on over a week we went to the vets. She examined him and everything seemed fine she thought it was likely to be furball related and prescribed logic diastop and we sent away stool samples which came back all clear. The diastop worked well and after two days he produced an enormous furball. The diarrhoea returned though and continued. We were told it could have left him with a sensitivity and to try feeding purina HA. That gave him even worse diarrhoea. We were then recomended royal canin gastro intestinal which initially was great his poo was more sold he was eating and he started gaining weight.
> He then suddenly stopped eating completely so we were having to syringe feed. At this point his poo was getting more and more liquid with lots of mucus and fresh blood. I rushed him to the vets one morning when he was vomiting water and unable to control his Bowels when he vomited, he seemed so ill. We saw a different vet who examined him and said she could feel a mass in his abdomen and she wanted to refer him to a specialist. She took bloods and gave him a b12 injection in case that was the problem. She explained it could be a tumour or a lymph gland that was enlarged. He was booked to see the specialist a few days later for a scan and endoscopy. When we took him in for that he was quite bright having produced a furball again. We were given the blood results and everything came back completely normal apart from his folate level. However as he'd been on. Full fast for 24 hours prior he said this would also affect that. He was scanned then had an endoscopy there was no tumour thankfully the mass was enlarged lymph glands. a needle aspiration of this was taken and numerous biopsies from the length of his digestive tract. He also said his other abdominal orgNs looked completely normal and while he couldn't rule out lymphoma until the lab results came back he said he'd be surprised if it was and his feeling was IBD. The results back last Monday which came back as suspected as IBD.
> 
> Weight wise he was 3.8kg at the biggest but had lost a little prior to being unwell and settled at about 3.5kg. He's a long cat who never could have been considered chunky but was muscular. He's now just 2.99kg and visibly thin.
> 
> Food wise Monty has alway been a funny eater he will happily drink lots and lick gravy from food but will not eat much that's wet at all, he will happily go back and eat his food once its dried up. He gets schesir tuna or chicken everyday but only a small amount its more of a treat than a feed. Other than that he's on the rc gastro intestinal both wet and dry, the wet though he tends to just lick the gravy and leave the rest.
> Hope that makes sense.


Ok, I would ask if I was you for an epi test to rule that out, especially with the weight loss, did they do a three day pooled sample?

Have they talked about trying an elimintaion diet to rule out this could be a food sensitvity issue? Rc whilst does work for some is not idea, for an elimination diet you need something the cat has not eaten including the extras in the food, something like kangaroo,reindeer, ostrich etc etc

B12 can be really helpful with appetite but only if a course of injections a one off one will not really make any difference.

Bright red blood not too much to worry about could be a tear in the anus or a polyp, or general irritation, bit like when we have a hot curry and it burns on the way out!

Pred is good if it works, didn't work with mine, if your is having dire rear then could you talk to them about adding metrondazole which has anti inflamatory in it too.

Also if they are saying it's severe and you are not making any progress adding chlorambucil could also be an option.

But do look at the food too, grain free, single novel proetein with limited add ons can help..

Oh and the epi test and a longer course of b12 injections to really help with the appetite..

I currently feed mine kanagroo and am adding in ostrich..despite and abnormal hunger he is doing ok but he also crashed with his weight at one point but the food and meds really helped him..he is currently swatting a walnut around the room


----------



## Vienna1

Thank you Forester. We've been told at the moment let him have whatever he wants so we are trying to tempt him. Its almost as if he forgets to eat as he will eat a bit when hand fed. He usually loves turkey so we are hopeful tomorrow may stimulate him to eat. He's ate some tuna schesir this morning and a little thrive chicken food this afternoon then Just had some rc gastro food hand fed to him. The vets advice was if he stops eating to syringe feed 5ml of convalescent support every 2 hours, it actually did seem to work last time as he picked up. Its hard to know what to do as when we syringe feed he stops eating himself completely. 

What you say about them deciding not to eat a food makes sense after all if we are ill after eating something we are unlikely to want to eat the same food soon after. With that said I'm tempted to withdraw the gastro intestinal food as he was on that when at his worst. Perhaps his beloved furball food may tempt him again. 

Thank you for taking the trouble to think of Monty especially on xmas eve. Hope you have a lovely xmas. xx


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarahecp thank you for your reply. Monty ate his breakfast this morning so I'm thankful for that. I'm wondering if he has a furball as he is notorious for stopping eating when he has one even when he was completely healthy. He still looks happy and comfortable. When I say comfortable he's lying on his bed looking so chilled but ten days ago he was just hunched up and didn't even seem to be able to sleep properly.
> 
> We are lucky our vets has 24 hour accident and emergency 365 days of the year so we have the peace of mind that we can just get in the car and go straight to the hospital at any time and its only ten minutes away.
> 
> From what the specialist said we are trying the steroids first then will look and see how he's responding so perhaps on Monday we will get a little further. I was told that IBD affecting large intestine rarely causes weight loss but upper does and it seems poor Monty has both affected from what we were told.
> 
> Hope Roman is feeling well, he's beautiful.
> 
> Here is Monty he seems quite relaxed!


Monty is a beautiful boy.

I'm pleased to hear he's eaten a little bit of food. I really hope he continues to eat some more.

You've been given some great advice from Sylv and Nicola 

I really hope Monty starts to improve really soon and you can hopefully get his IBD under control with the right food and meds.



Vienna1 said:


> Hi just saw your post about Roman after I'd posted. Sorry to see he wasn't too good last night, hope he is feeling better today. They are such a worry when they are poorly.





nicolaa123 said:


> Sarah, hopefully Roman is feeling better now, guess rabbit is off the menu


Thanks both

He's been a lot better today, he had a poo late morning that was soft with a bit of shape to it, so fingers crossed.

Just want to say, thank you all so much for your help, advice and support this year and to wish you all a very Happy Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year xx xx xx


----------



## Vienna1

nicolaa123 said:


> Ok, I would ask if I was you for an epi test to rule that out, especially with the weight loss, did they do a three day pooled sample?
> 
> Have they talked about trying an elimintaion diet to rule out this could be a food sensitvity issue? Rc whilst does work for some is not idea, for an elimination diet you need something the cat has not eaten including the extras in the food, something like kangaroo,reindeer, ostrich etc etc
> 
> B12 can be really helpful with appetite but only if a course of injections a one off one will not really make any difference.
> 
> Bright red blood not too much to worry about could be a tear in the anus or a polyp, or general irritation, bit like when we have a hot curry and it burns on the way out!
> 
> Pred is good if it works, didn't work with mine, if your is having dire rear then could you talk to them about adding metrondazole which has anti inflamatory in it too.
> 
> Also if they are saying it's severe and you are not making any progress adding chlorambucil could also be an option.
> 
> But do look at the food too, grain free, single novel proetein with limited add ons can help..
> 
> Oh and the epi test and a longer course of b12 injections to really help with the appetite..
> 
> I currently feed mine kanagroo and am adding in ostrich..despite and abnormal hunger he is doing ok but he also crashed with his weight at one point but the food and meds really helped him..he is currently swatting a walnut around the room


Hi, he's had the epi test and that was ruled out. we had to withdraw food 24 hours before the test and water for 12 hours before for the test to be accurate. As far as the B12 is concerned his levels were actually on the high end of the normal scale so no deficiency there either.

The three day pooled sample was the first test that was done.

As far as food elimination I got the impression that's to come but the steroids were the first step to try to get him feeling better fast, his specialist did say something along the lines of we'll look at the food but for now anything he will eat let him have.

I still wonder if having a furball makes things so much worse for him whilst having IBD as even before he started treatment we were seeing him go through really rough patches followed by short periods of him seeming better. quite often these seemed to coincide with a furball making an appearance. His weight loss is our biggest concern at the moment, so much so I'm now resorting to syringing him every couple of hours as I think his tummy has shrunk so much he just can manage to eat enough calories on his own.

I'm looking forward to the day Monty is chasing a walnut around the floor again


----------



## sarahecp

Morning all 

Hope you and your furries enjoyed your Christmas and Boxing Days. 

I did think things in the poo department were returning to normal, but I caught the naughty little b*gger with his head in the bin liner as I was emptying the bin Christmas morning, he came out with Sheba flakes over his face  he was very quiet and not himself by the afternoon and spent most of the time upstairs sleeping on the cat tree. Came down twice for a poo that was runny then it was like water in the evening. 

He's fine in himself now, he's between soft and runny poo's at the moment. Hopefully things return to normal soon. 

I need to ring Patricia on Monday to give her an update. 


Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all doing well. 

xx


----------



## Vienna1

Morning Sarah, poor boy I'm sure the fine flakes weren't worth it for him. Hopefully once out of his system it will settle again. 

We resorted to 2 hourly syringe feeding on xmas eve so set alarm for the middle of the night and did that too just to get some nourishment Into him as his weight had plummeted. On xmas morning he licked a little food but not much really. They were all asleep upstairs in The afternoon by the time the turkey was ready so I took a few slices up while it was still warm. I gave a little to our 16 year old boy then saw Monty sniffing the air so went and offered him some he sniffed it then turned away then turned back sniffed it again and grabbed it! He then ate everyone else's too! I had to go get more for them! He has started eating a little now I woke yesterday morning just before 5 to feed him and he was already eating of his own accord. He had gained 65g just on xmas day alone so will weigh him again today and see how he's doing. Back at vets on Monday so will continue to supplement what he's eating until then. His poo is still good pretty solid will some toothpaste consistency with it. 

Hope everyone had a lovely xmas and all your babies doing well.


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Morning Sarah, poor boy I'm sure the fine flakes weren't worth it for him. Hopefully once out of his system it will settle again.
> 
> We resorted to 2 hourly syringe feeding on xmas eve so set alarm for the middle of the night and did that too just to get some nourishment Into him as his weight had plummeted. On xmas morning he licked a little food but not much really. They were all asleep upstairs in The afternoon by the time the turkey was ready so I took a few slices up while it was still warm. I gave a little to our 16 year old boy then saw Monty sniffing the air so went and offered him some he sniffed it then turned away then turned back sniffed it again and grabbed it! He then ate everyone else's too! I had to go get more for them! He has started eating a little now I woke yesterday morning just before 5 to feed him and he was already eating of his own accord. He had gained 65g just on xmas day alone so will weigh him again today and see how he's doing. Back at vets on Monday so will continue to supplement what he's eating until then. His poo is still good pretty solid will some toothpaste consistency with it.
> 
> Hope everyone had a lovely xmas and all your babies doing well.


I know that I'm " not posting " but I can't contain my joy at seeing this post. 

Well done Monty. Hopefully, now that he's started eating it can only be onwards and upwards.

Wishing you good luck for Monday.

Sarah, Fingers crossed that Roman will soon be solid again. 

Thinking of you all and hoping those masters and mistresses of ours are all " on the up "


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Morning Sarah, poor boy I'm sure the fine flakes weren't worth it for him. Hopefully once out of his system it will settle again.
> 
> We resorted to 2 hourly syringe feeding on xmas eve so set alarm for the middle of the night and did that too just to get some nourishment Into him as his weight had plummeted. On xmas morning he licked a little food but not much really. They were all asleep upstairs in The afternoon by the time the turkey was ready so I took a few slices up while it was still warm. I gave a little to our 16 year old boy then saw Monty sniffing the air so went and offered him some he sniffed it then turned away then turned back sniffed it again and grabbed it! He then ate everyone else's too! I had to go get more for them! He has started eating a little now I woke yesterday morning just before 5 to feed him and he was already eating of his own accord. He had gained 65g just on xmas day alone so will weigh him again today and see how he's doing. Back at vets on Monday so will continue to supplement what he's eating until then. His poo is still good pretty solid will some toothpaste consistency with it.
> 
> Hope everyone had a lovely xmas and all your babies doing well.


Thanks  I'm keeping everything crossed.

I'm so so pleased and happy that Monty is eating   well done Monty :thumbup: keep it up 

Hope all goes well on Monday, let us know how he gets on.



Forester said:


> I know that I'm " not posting " but I can't contain my joy at seeing this post.
> 
> Well done Monty. Hopefully, now that he's started eating it can only be onwards and upwards.
> 
> Wishing you good luck for Monday.
> 
> Sarah, Fingers crossed that Roman will soon be solid again.
> 
> Thinking of you all and hoping those masters and mistresses of ours are all " on the up "




Thanks 

Hope Dyl's ok.


----------



## Forester

O K Ladies, I've acknowledged that I have a problem - I can't stay away from you all. so it looks as though I'm back.

I *do *have progress to report. 

When I decided to take my break Dylan was vomiting most days and usually more than once a day. I was on the point of either putting him on z/d dry or asking for a referral , which would have been almost logistically impossible at the moment.

I've made 2 changes and reduced the " returns " to less than 1 a week, better than he's been since we adopted him March 13. The triggers I've identified are chicken ( also suspect turkey ) and offal.

Can I ask whether you think that offal, of any species , could logically cause vomiting?. I know that withdrawing it *has *made a difference but I can't see *why*it would. I can see that offal as a trigger would explain why Dylan was so poorly when I tried him with the Ropo venison and VC kangaroo. I am aware that offal can cause dire rear but haven't seen any articles which indicate that it can also trigger vomiting. Irrespective of whether there is any documented evidence Dylan is *definitely *better without offal.

I now have the task of finding a chicken ( and possibly turkey )free, offal free balanced diet. 

LDK1 I'm particularly interested in what you think of my recent discoveries with Dylan. Does this have any parallels with Rosie ?

Hoping that everyone has had an enjoyable Christmas and will have a happy New Year


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv and welcome back   x

I'm so pleased and happy to hear Dylan is doing well :thumbup: keep it up Dyl   

Sorry I cannot advise on the offal content, this is something I need educating in myself and it's on my 2015 to do and learn list


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Hi, he's had the epi test and that was ruled out. we had to withdraw food 24 hours before the test and water for 12 hours before for the test to be accurate. As far as the B12 is concerned his levels were actually on the high end of the normal scale so no deficiency there either.
> 
> The three day pooled sample was the first test that was done.
> 
> As far as food elimination I got the impression that's to come but the steroids were the first step to try to get him feeling better fast, his specialist did say something along the lines of we'll look at the food but for now anything he will eat let him have.
> 
> I still wonder if having a furball makes things so much worse for him whilst having IBD as even before he started treatment we were seeing him go through really rough patches followed by short periods of him seeming better. quite often these seemed to coincide with a furball making an appearance. His weight loss is our biggest concern at the moment, so much so I'm now resorting to syringing him every couple of hours as I think his tummy has shrunk so much he just can manage to eat enough calories on his own.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the day Monty is chasing a walnut around the floor again


How old is monty? Pleased to hear he has eaten some turkey, I would continue giving the turkey to get some strength into him. Sounds like getting the right levels of drugs is going to be the main priority.

My specialist tried a high does of pred and the metronidazole but this was also to support his liver which was also affected at the time.

i never really saw a great difference in riley until we started the cholrambucil, his weight had crashed, not eating, so very thin and it really changed things for him massively, with out it I am hundred percent certain he would not be here right now! I would ask your vet about their opinion on adding it to his pred.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> O K Ladies, I've acknowledged that I have a problem - I can't stay away from you all. so it looks as though I'm back.
> 
> I *do *have progress to report.
> 
> When I decided to take my break Dylan was vomiting most days and usually more than once a day. I was on the point of either putting him on z/d dry or asking for a referral , which would have been almost logistically impossible at the moment.
> 
> I've made 2 changes and reduced the " returns " to less than 1 a week, better than he's been since we adopted him March 13. The triggers I've identified are chicken ( also suspect turkey ) and offal.
> 
> Can I ask whether you think that offal, of any species , could logically cause vomiting?. I know that withdrawing it *has *made a difference but I can't see *why*it would. I can see that offal as a trigger would explain why Dylan was so poorly when I tried him with the Ropo venison and VC kangaroo. I am aware that offal can cause dire rear but haven't seen any articles which indicate that it can also trigger vomiting. Irrespective of whether there is any documented evidence Dylan is *definitely *better without offal.
> 
> I now have the task of finding a chicken ( and possibly turkey )free, offal free balanced diet.
> 
> LDK1 I'm particularly interested in what you think of my recent discoveries with Dylan. Does this have any parallels with Rosie ?
> 
> Hoping that everyone has had an enjoyable Christmas and will have a happy New Year


It would not surprise me as cats with ibd are more particulary sensitive so this could be his trigger, like with riley he can't eat most proteins or pre or pro biotics. The only way you will find out about offal is to do a trial . I am so pleased to hear his output is a lot less..


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Morning all
> 
> Hope you and your furries enjoyed your Christmas and Boxing Days.
> 
> I did think things in the poo department were returning to normal, but I caught the naughty little b*gger with his head in the bin liner as I was emptying the bin Christmas morning, he came out with Sheba flakes over his face  he was very quiet and not himself by the afternoon and spent most of the time upstairs sleeping on the cat tree. Came down twice for a poo that was runny then it was like water in the evening.
> 
> He's fine in himself now, he's between soft and runny poo's at the moment. Hopefully things return to normal soon.
> 
> I need to ring Patricia on Monday to give her an update.
> 
> Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all doing well.
> 
> xx


Hopefully normal tray deposits will resume very soon! I will be putting another order in for ostrich, so happy to send you a tin..going to give it a bit longer just to be on the safe side, but riley seems ok on it..

Hunger issues continue..but all in all he is still ok


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Hopefully normal tray deposits will resume very soon! I will be putting another order in for ostrich, so happy to send you a tin..going to give it a bit longer just to be on the safe side, but riley seems ok on it..
> 
> Hunger issues continue..but all in all he is still ok


Thanks Nicola  I hope so too.

Pleased to hear Riley seems ok on the Ostrich   let's hope it continues.

Thank you for the offer  I think I'm going to stick with the kangaroo for now and just see how things go. I was scared trying the rabbit and now petrified to try anything else.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> It would not surprise me as cats with ibd are more particulary sensitive so this could be his trigger, like with riley he can't eat most proteins or pre or pro biotics. The only way you will find out about offal is to do a trial . I am so pleased to hear his output is a lot less..


Thanks , Nicola . I have done a ( short ) trial. He's much better without offal, even a tiny amount is sufficient to trigger returns. I'm just interested to know whether this a recognised phenomena or whether its just my boy. I'm also wondering what it might be about offal that would cause this effect. I haven't got as far as working out whether there is any difference between liver, heart and kidneys in terms of how they affect him. I can't really see much point in distinguishing between them as I would never find food that made that distinction.

I'm so pleased to hear that Riley has been fine with the ostrich. Fingers crossed that he stays that way.


----------



## Vienna1

I'm reading all about Ostrich and Kangaroo with interest here, i'm guessing I have all this to come! Can't say i'm looking forward to it, when we were told to try the purina HA poor boy was so much worse. It's awful giving them something to try to help and having opposite effect.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> I'm reading all about Ostrich and Kangaroo with interest here, i'm guessing I have all this to come! Can't say i'm looking forward to it, when we were told to try the purina HA poor boy was so much worse. It's awful giving them something to try to help and having opposite effect.


I was excited and scared at the same time about trying the kangaroo especially after the prescription foods didn't help and made no difference, when Roman's poo was firm for the first time in 8-9 months I actually cried tears of joy  I was so happy for him and he was so much happier too, he'd been firm for around 3 months and then I go and spoil it by giving him the rabbit


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> I was excited and scared at the same time about trying the kangaroo especially after the prescription foods didn't help and made no difference, when Roman's poo was firm for the first time in 8-9 months I actually cried tears of joy  I was so happy for him and he was so much happier too, he'd been firm for around 3 months and then I go and spoil it by giving him the rabbit


Noooooooooooo! You have not spoiled anything!! You have just ruled out rabbit as a protein source that's all! Which is the point of an elimination diet, to rule out the foods he can't have! So you have done the right thing in giving him the rabbit, ok he has had a blip, same as when I tried goat we got a blip, but you have to keep trying foods, ideally have at least three to avoid sensitivity to the ones they can eat..


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Thanks , Nicola . I have done a ( short ) trial. He's much better without offal, even a tiny amount is sufficient to trigger returns. I'm just interested to know whether this a recognised phenomena or whether its just my boy. I'm also wondering what it might be about offal that would cause this effect. I haven't got as far as working out whether there is any difference between liver, heart and kidneys in terms of how they affect him. I can't really see much point in distinguishing between them as I would never find food that made that distinction.
> 
> I'm so pleased to hear that Riley has been fine with the ostrich. Fingers crossed that he stays that way.


There is not a lot of new research into ibd and certainly not in depth as to individual cases and how it presents and the triggers, so could be a more broad factor amongst cats or could we'll be just your boy..the great thing is you have identified a trigger and can avoid that for him going forward.

It's an interesting point and I would say ask satori about the offal and why that could be a trigger. I'm quietly happy that I may have found two foods Riley can eat! Yet to try the buffalo..won't push my luck


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> I'm reading all about Ostrich and Kangaroo with interest here, i'm guessing I have all this to come! Can't say i'm looking forward to it, when we were told to try the purina HA poor boy was so much worse. It's awful giving them something to try to help and having opposite effect.


Unfortunately it's the only way to see if the food can help is to try it and keep a log!


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I was excited and scared at the same time about trying the kangaroo especially after the prescription foods didn't help and made no difference, when Roman's poo was firm for the first time in 8-9 months I actually cried tears of joy  I was so happy for him and he was so much happier too, he'd been firm for around 3 months and then I go and spoil it by giving him the rabbit


*Please don't blame yourself for trying the rabbit. Its not your fault that Roman has reacted badly to it.* You would have kicked yourself if you hadn't tried it. How were you to know that it wouldn't suit him.? The only other VC food that you'd tried was fine. I would imagine that most people would therefore expect that he would have a good chance of being fine with the rabbit.

Sending ((( Hugs ))) , and firming vibes.  I could do the " firm poo " chant for you if you like.

Edited to add cross posted with Nicola, I'm a slow typer.or should that be typist.


----------



## sarahecp

Can't quote again 

Thank you both 

It's just that I feel that we come this far and then it's like we're going backwards. I know I've got to try other foods to eliminate, you are both right  I'm being a worry wort as usual and got to think it's just a blip. 

I'm feeling positive this morning as there's been no more poo's since yesterday morning so that could be a good sign 

We could all do the firm poo chant together  

xx


----------



## Vienna1

Morning all, this IBD seems to be a roller coaster ride for the cats and owners. 

Monty has decided he doesn't want to eat again so we are back to hand feeding him, he's lost the bit of weight he'd put back on. We are at the vets tomorrow morning with him and I'm thinking I need to take a list of questions with us to ask this time. I felt a bit of an idiot last time as I was so relieved and trying hard not to be emotional about the fact they hadn't found a tumour, then the vet was explaining everything in detail I dont think a lot was going in. 

As far as food is concerned I'm confused as where to start the rc gastro intestinal seemed to help before he started on medication but he's refusing to eat it even when he has an appetite funnily enough (or not) our other cats will happily munch their way through it in both wet and dry. The purina HA rice crispies came straight through him in liquid form! Burns seemed to make him worse but not really sure if it was just the fact he was getting worse at the time. Getting him to eat wet food has never been easy he will eat a teaspoon full but that's about it, in fact he normally just licks any gravy then leaves the chunks. Maybe a pate style would be better as he likes to lick. Ideally we need a food they can all eat wet and dry because if he's having it they will want it! Especially the younger ones.

Hope everyone is doing well today with no soft poo's or being sick.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> It's just that I feel that we come this far and then it's like we're going backwards.
> 
> We could all do the firm poo chant together
> 
> xx


You're going *forwards *not backwards. How else were you going to find out whether Roman can eat rabbit? Now you have eliminated it you are one step on ( not back ).

Chanting for you .

You *will *get there. As my vet said to me months ago " Sadly, its a long haul "

Sending Hugs


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Monty has decided he doesn't want to eat again so we are back to hand feeding him, he's lost the bit of weight he'd put back on. We are at the vets tomorrow morning with him and I'm thinking I need to take a list of questions with us to ask this time. I felt a bit of an idiot last time as I was so relieved and trying hard not to be emotional about the fact they hadn't found a tumour, then the vet was explaining everything in detail I dont think a lot was going in.
> 
> As far as food is concerned I'm confused as where to start the rc gastro intestinal seemed to help before he started on medication but he's refusing to eat it even when he has an appetite funnily enough (or not) our other cats will happily munch their way through it in both wet and dry. The purina HA rice crispies came straight through him in liquid form! Burns seemed to make him worse but not really sure if it was just the fact he was getting worse at the time. Getting him to eat wet food has never been easy he will eat a teaspoon full but that's about it, in fact he normally just licks any gravy then leaves the chunks. Maybe a pate style would be better as he likes to lick. Ideally we need a food they can all eat wet and dry because if he's having it they will want it! Especially the younger ones.


Vienna, Brain block at the vets is a well known condition amongst IBD slaves so please don't blame yourself. Everyone suffers from it. I do it on the phone as well.

I'm truly sorry to hear that Monty has stopped eating again just when you thought that you were making progress. I have 2 cupboards full of mostly pate style foods which Dylan can't eat . I'll drop you a PM to see if you'd like to try any of them for Monty.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Morning all, this IBD seems to be a roller coaster ride for the cats and owners.
> 
> Monty has decided he doesn't want to eat again so we are back to hand feeding him, he's lost the bit of weight he'd put back on. We are at the vets tomorrow morning with him and I'm thinking I need to take a list of questions with us to ask this time. I felt a bit of an idiot last time as I was so relieved and trying hard not to be emotional about the fact they hadn't found a tumour, then the vet was explaining everything in detail I dont think a lot was going in.
> 
> As far as food is concerned I'm confused as where to start the rc gastro intestinal seemed to help before he started on medication but he's refusing to eat it even when he has an appetite funnily enough (or not) our other cats will happily munch their way through it in both wet and dry. The purina HA rice crispies came straight through him in liquid form! Burns seemed to make him worse but not really sure if it was just the fact he was getting worse at the time. Getting him to eat wet food has never been easy he will eat a teaspoon full but that's about it, in fact he normally just licks any gravy then leaves the chunks. Maybe a pate style would be better as he likes to lick. Ideally we need a food they can all eat wet and dry because if he's having it they will want it! Especially the younger ones.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well today with no soft poo's or being sick.


It sure is a rollacoaster, it's confusing and I really wish I understood it.

The ladies on here are a great support and help and I have a lot to thank them for.

I'm sorry to hear Monty is not eating again  it's definitely worth trying a pâté food to see if he'll eat it.

You're not alone with brain block, I took Nicola's advice and wrote everything down in a note book and my list of questions, it really does help, and you can write the answers and advice in there too.

Like Nicola says to keep a log, I've got a poo and food diary and write in everyday, what he's eaten, how much, when he poo's and what it's like. I also put what meds he's having and the dosage. It has helped me so much.

Really hope Monty starts to eat soon xx



Forester said:


> You're going *forwards *not backwards. How else were you going to find out whether Roman can eat rabbit? Now you have eliminated it you are one step on ( not back ).
> 
> Chanting for you .
> 
> You *will *get there. As my vet said to me months ago " Sadly, its a long haul "
> 
> Sending Hugs


Thanks Sylv  xx

It just feels a bit like déjà vu. I know there are going to be blips and it's a long road and I've got to keep telling myself that, I know we're going to get there again.

We've had 3 runny poo's so far today and he's been very quiet again, he's slept upstairs most of the day. He had breakfast and a little bit more around 9am not eaten anything since.



Forester said:


> Vienna, Brain block at the vets is a well known condition amongst IBD slaves so please don't blame yourself. Everyone suffers from it. I do it on the phone as well.
> 
> I'm truly sorry to hear that Monty has stopped eating again just when you thought that you were making progress. I have 2 cupboards full of mostly pate style foods which Dylan can't eat . I'll drop you a PM to see if you'd like to try any of them for Monty.


I also have some rabbit and kangaroo I can send you too


----------



## sarahecp

Roman has had another 3 runny poo's, on inspection of the last one I have found something that google tells me is a round worm, there were 2, about 4 inches long, looks like cooked spaghetti. 

Roman was last flea'd with Advocate in August, so that would cover him for worms except tape worm, have been using Advantage since October on him but he's not been wormed separately yet, I would normally do all 3 boys every 3 months. 

I think I have Drontal, I will have to have a look, I have got Droncit but that is for tape worm only. 

If I have Drontal shall I give him some or give my vet a call in the morning to see what they advise?

ETA - I've kept the worms and going to pop into the vets in the morning to see if they can identify incase I've got it wrong, and then they can tell me which wormer is best.


----------



## Vienna1

Hi Ladies,

Not sure if its just me but I'm having issues with messages disappearing! just typed a whole post and the whole thing has gone!

I wanted to say thank you for your support and advice and of course the food offers, I'm quite blown away by your kindness. 

Monty is still not eating and looks so miserable he just wants to sleep, he does look comfortable though which he didn't a few weeks ago. We had a call from the vets this afternoon confirming our appointment for tomorrow where they also said we need to withhold all food from 10pm this evening. This has me in a panic worrying about what they are planning to do, I really don't want to put him though another GA again. 

Just as I'm typing this he has woke up and is having a good grooming session and keeps looking at himself in the mirror he's sat next to. 

Obviously you are all way ahead of me with experience of managing this, but as an observation the pet food companies don't seem to make it easy to identify what helps and doesn't. I Was just thinking Monty seems to be fine with the RC convalescence support that is mixed with water so looked at the ingredients but they are so vague its impossible to identify anything to be of any use when looking at other products. 


Hope things are better tonight with your little ones. Sarah hope the runny poo's have easied now. Is it Roman who has the problems?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Roman has had another 3 runny poo's, on inspection of the last one I have found something that google tells me is a round worm, there were 2, about 4 inches long, looks like cooked spaghetti.
> 
> Roman was last flea'd with Advocate in August, so that would cover him for worms except tape worm, have been using Advantage since October on him but he's not been wormed separately yet, I would normally do all 3 boys every 3 months.
> 
> I think I have Drontal, I will have to have a look, I have got Droncit but that is for tape worm only.
> 
> If I have Drontal shall I give him some or give my vet a call in the morning to see what they advise?


Oh poor Roman . Lodgers can't be helping his tummy.

If it was me I'd wait to ring the vets in the morning. 12 hours isn't going to make a lot of difference.



Vienna1 said:


> Hi Ladies,
> 
> Not sure if its just me but I'm having issues with messages disappearing! just typed a whole post and the whole thing has gone!
> 
> *I wanted to say thank you for your support and advice and of course the food offers, I'm quite blown away by your kindness. *Monty is still not eating and looks so miserable he just wants to sleep, he does look comfortable though which he didn't a few weeks ago. We had a call from the vets this afternoon confirming our appointment for tomorrow where they also said we need to withhold all food from 10pm this evening. This has me in a panic worrying about what they are planning to do, I really don't want to put him though another GA again.
> 
> Just as I'm typing this he has woke up and is having a good grooming session and keeps looking at himself in the mirror he's sat next to.
> 
> Obviously you are all way ahead of me with experience of managing this, but as an observation the pet food companies don't seem to make it easy to identify what helps and doesn't. I Was just thinking Monty seems to be fine with the RC convalescence support that is mixed with water so looked at the ingredients but they are so vague its impossible to identify anything to be of any use when looking at other products.
> 
> Hope things are better tonight with your little ones. Sarah hope the runny poo's have easied now. Is it Roman who has the problems?


No problems,. I'm sure that we're all glad to help. We've all been in the same position at some time and know what its like. Nevertheless ,I too, still get very touched by the kindness shown by other forum members.

I've found that Royal Canin seem to be the worst at hiding their ingredients lists.

Try not to worry about Monty tomorrow. The vets can't do anything without your permission. It may be that they just want to cover themselves just in case they feel that they need to undertake any procedures. A couple of years ago my cat Eric had a procedure on his eye booked to be done under sedation . My vets still wanted him starved.

Monty is a very handsome boy. Its no wonder that he wants to admire himself in a mirror. 

Hoping that Monty and Roman will soon be feeling much better.

love to all IBDers and slaves


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Ladies,
> 
> Not sure if its just me but I'm having issues with messages disappearing! just typed a whole post and the whole thing has gone!
> 
> I wanted to say thank you for your support and advice and of course the food offers, I'm quite blown away by your kindness.
> 
> Monty is still not eating and looks so miserable he just wants to sleep, he does look comfortable though which he didn't a few weeks ago. We had a call from the vets this afternoon confirming our appointment for tomorrow where they also said we need to withhold all food from 10pm this evening. This has me in a panic worrying about what they are planning to do, I really don't want to put him though another GA again.
> 
> Just as I'm typing this he has woke up and is having a good grooming session and keeps looking at himself in the mirror he's sat next to.
> 
> Obviously you are all way ahead of me with experience of managing this, but as an observation the pet food companies don't seem to make it easy to identify what helps and doesn't. I Was just thinking Monty seems to be fine with the RC convalescence support that is mixed with water so looked at the ingredients but they are so vague its impossible to identify anything to be of any use when looking at other products.
> 
> Hope things are better tonight with your little ones. Sarah hope the runny poo's have easied now. Is it Roman who has the problems?


Hi Vienna,

That has happened to me quite a lot lately and it's always when it's a long post 

Drop me a pm if you want to try the rabbit or kangaroo, I'm more than happy to send you some.

Yes, Roman is my IBD'er  6 runny poo's and 2 worms later he has livened up and wants to play  and he's now eating a little bit. I was horrified to find the worms never seem them in real life before, was kind of scary  I'd like to know how it got them 

Have you managed to syringe feed Monty anything?

Not sure why they'd want you to starve him and can't see them doing anything that involves a GA without telling you.

Monty sounds like a vain boy  Roman sits in the basin looking at himself in the mirror 

With regards to foods, I'm no expect, and what I do know I've learned from the ladies on here  and I'm still learning  I've read so much on IBD and think there is so much to take in and understand, it's a baffling minefield.

Roman's referral vet gave me a list of Hills and Royal Canin hypoallergenic food to try him on, I got a couple of the wet ones that looked like plastic and some in gravy, he'd try a mouthful and wouldn't eat anymore. I then tried the Royal Canin Sensitive Control duck and rice, he'd eat it but his dire rear continued. That is when Nicola and Sylv suggested I try a novel protein like the Vet Concept kangaroo, Sylv sent me some to try and he liked it, I started adding some Libby's pumpkin purée for added fibre, this suited him and his poo started to firm up. I think it's a combination of the food and meds that have helped.

Sending lots of positive vibes for tomorrow and hope all goes well, let us know how Monty gets on xx


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Oh poor Roman . Lodgers can't be helping his tummy.
> 
> If it was me I'd wait to ring the vets in the morning. 12 hours isn't going to make a lot of difference.
> 
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> I've saved the worms  thought it best to take them to the vets to identify so Roman can be given the correct treatment, I'll call them at 8 when they open.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> [\QUOTE]
> 
> I've saved the worms  thought it best to take them to the vets to identify so Roman can be given the correct treatment, I'll call them at 8 when they open.


  

I found one in the water when I was cooking Dylan's rabbit. It really turned my stomach. If there was anything else I could feed him at the moment it would have put me off feeding them . I suppose that I shouldn't have been surprised as they're wild rabbits but it did make me :arf: a little.


----------



## Vienna1

Oh no poor Roman ( love his name btw) I'm sure that's the last thing you and he need. 

Monty has just astounded us by eating a little tuna in jelly, only a teaspoon full but at least he ate something on his own. He then had a wander around the kitchen and decided he wanted to try the bed I'd just finished making and has settled himself there. An hour ago he looked so unwell.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I found one in the water when I was cooking Dylan's rabbit. It really turned my stomach. If there was anything else I could feed him at the moment it would have put me off feeding them . I suppose that I shouldn't have been surprised as they're wild rabbits but it did make me :arf: a little.


 nasty things!!

I keep thinking about them and itching  I expected them to be moving  do they move?

I hope I don't have nightmares tonight 



Vienna1 said:


> Oh no poor Roman ( love his name btw) I'm sure that's the last thing you and he need.
> 
> Monty has just astounded us by eating a little tuna in jelly, only a teaspoon full but at least he ate something on his own. He then had a wander around the kitchen and decided he wanted to try the bed I'd just finished making and has settled himself there. An hour ago he looked so unwell.


I think thats what's been making him feel poorly this week 

Thanks  he was going to be called Ralph, but liked Roman more 

I'm so pleased Monty has eaten something  

He's such a beautiful boy :001_wub: and looks as snug as a bug


----------



## sarahecp

Morning all 

Little update - no more poo since the worms episode, he's a lot brighter and more himself this morning. 

Rang the vets, they don't need to see Roman or the worms (I can get rid now, been giving me the creeps all night ) just need to collect some treatment. 

Also, left a message for Patricia to give me a call when she's free. 

Will update later. 

Hope everyone is doing ok and good luck to Monty for today. 

Keep wrapped up, it's freezing 

xx


ETA - got Drontal from the vets and given it to him


----------



## Vienna1

Morning everyone, 

Glad to hear Roman is feeling better this morning and I'm sure you are both happy not to have to go to the vets. 

Just back from the vets ourselves, it seems the reason for starving him was so he could feel his tummy properly. The good news is the lymph glands that were in the vets words pretty huge have gone down completely. He feels Monty must still be feeling a bit unwell with his refusal to eat, he said often even the smell of the food starts the saliva which in turn stimulates the pancreatic fluids which then causes pain or discomfort. So we have another 14 days at same dose of the steroids plus he has started him on Leukeran (Chlorambucil) we have to go back in two weeks or earlier if we are concerned. Apart from the appetite problem which he feels is because of his tummy being sore he was pleased with him. Food wise we are to just feed him anything at all just to get him eating at this stage to try to get his weight stabilised at least.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> Glad to hear Roman is feeling better this morning and I'm sure you are both happy not to have to go to the vets.
> 
> Just back from the vets ourselves, it seems the reason for starving him was so he could feel his tummy properly. The good news is the lymph glands that were in the vets words pretty huge have gone down completely. He feels Monty must still be feeling a bit unwell with his refusal to eat, he said often even the smell of the food starts the saliva which in turn stimulates the pancreatic fluids which then causes pain or discomfort. So we have another 14 days at same dose of the steroids plus he has started him on Leukeran (Chlorambucil) we have to go back in two weeks or earlier if we are concerned. Apart from the appetite problem which he feels is because of his tummy being sore he was pleased with him. Food wise we are to just feed him anything at all just to get him eating at this stage to try to get his weight stabilised at least.


Pleased all went well at the vets for Monty  

Great new his lymph glands have gone down 

That does make sense why he's not wanting to eat, someone else mentioned that it's a bit like us humans if something has given us an upset stomach we're reluctant to want to eat or eat that same food again, very true.

What dosage of chlorambucil has he been given? Roman is on 2mg every other day. I'm sure it's this that has been helping him.

Fingers crossed Monty starts eating really soon.

Keep us updated on his progress.

xx


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Pleased all went well at the vets for Monty
> 
> Great new his lymph glands have gone down
> 
> That does make sense why he's not wanting to eat, someone else mentioned that it's a bit like us humans if something has given us an upset stomach we're reluctant to want to eat or eat that same food again, very true.
> 
> What dosage of chlorambucil has he been given? Roman is on 2mg every other day. I'm sure it's this that has been helping him.
> 
> Fingers crossed Monty starts eating really soon.
> 
> Keep us updated on his progress.
> 
> xx


Hi Sarah,

He's on 2mg once a week for now. He had it this morning and I don't know if it can possibly work that fast but he seems a bit happier this afternoon he's just came downstairs to see us. If we could just think of anything to tempt him to eat I'm sure he'd feel much better. Think I need to research dry food to see if I can find a grain free version that's not applause. He seems like he wants something just nothing we are giving him, he was eyeing a bowl of icecream my husnand was eating with interest. so we thought oh he's hungry and got a 'not a chance' response to everything we offered


----------



## Forester

I'm glad that the news about both Roman and Monty is good.

Hopefully the wormer will make Roman feel better. I was lying in bed last night thinking of worms. :arf:I wonder whether they have contributed to Roman's lack of weight gain. Fingers crossed that he will benefit from having his food to himself in future.

Its great that Monty showed an interest in the tuna. I think that something strong smelling was a good choice to try him with. I expect that you've tried warming his food a little to maximize the aroma. I personally, have no experience with chlorambucil but I know that Sarah and Nicola have both had very good results with it ( for Riley and Roman  ). It must be very reassuring to know that the vet was pleased with Monty. Hopefully the next two weeks will bring about more improvement.

Dylan continues to be o k.

I am so so mad with myself for not letting him have dry food when I first took him to the vets. I can't get it out of my mind that its *my* fault that he's been on chicken based foods all this time. I should have tried him on all rabbit in the summer when I started it .  I was so worried that it was incomplete and my vet didn't want me to add the Felini.

Thinking of all IBDers and hoping that everyone is doing well.


----------



## sarahecp

I tried to post earlier but for some reason I couldn't 

I spoke to Patricia, she was really pleased with Roman's progress 

Told her how he's been the last week, feeding the rabbit, dire rear, vomiting, the worms and giving him Drontal. She said the dire rear could be a combination of the food, though it was only a tiny bit, and the worms. She wants us to continue with the same doses of chlorambucil and Pred for 2 weeks and then to update her.

He's been fine today, still no poo as yet.



Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah,
> 
> He's on 2mg once a week for now. He had it this morning and I don't know if it can possibly work that fast but he seems a bit happier this afternoon he's just came downstairs to see us. If we could just think of anything to tempt him to eat I'm sure he'd feel much better. Think I need to research dry food to see if I can find a grain free version that's not applause. He seems like he wants something just nothing we are giving him, he was eyeing a bowl of icecream my husnand was eating with interest. so we thought oh he's hungry and got a 'not a chance' response to everything we offered


Pleased Monty seems happier, when Roman first started taking it I noticed he became quite sleepy, but that could have been the Pred as well as he was on a higher dose. But I do think it has done wonders for him 

Origen is grain free dry, you could try him with that, there are a few others, have a look on ZooPlus, I think Taste of the Wild is too.

Come on Monty, eat some food, even just a little bit 



Forester said:


> I'm glad that the news about both Roman and Monty is good.
> 
> Hopefully the wormer will make Roman feel better. I was lying in bed last night thinking of worms. :arf:I wonder whether they have contributed to Roman's lack of weight gain. Fingers crossed that he will benefit from having his food to himself in future.
> 
> Its great that Monty showed an interest in the tuna. I think that something strong smelling was a good choice to try him with. I expect that you've tried warming his food a little to maximize the aroma. I personally, have no experience with chlorambucil but I know that Sarah and Nicola have both had very good results with it ( for Riley and Roman  ). It must be very reassuring to know that the vet was pleased with Monty. Hopefully the next two weeks will bring about more improvement.
> 
> Dylan continues to be o k.
> 
> I am so so mad with myself for not letting him have dry food when I first took him to the vets. I can't get it out of my mind that its *my* fault that he's been on chicken based foods all this time. I should have tried him on all rabbit in the summer when I started it .  I was so worried that it was incomplete and my vet didn't want me to add the Felini.
> 
> Thinking of all IBDers and hoping that everyone is doing well.


I still keeping thinking about worms  *shudder*

I think the worms may have something to do with his weight, thing is I've no idea how long he's had them  I've always inspected his poo in depth, always look for blood, mucus, which he's never had, and worms or anything not quite right. When I googled worms last night, it said they don't always come out (in poo or vomit) they can stay in and can cause a blockage.

I defiantly think it's the worms that have caused him to be poorly, quiet, sleepy and not himself. In all the time he's had dire rear he's never wanted to be on his own, he loves his humans and has to be where we are.

Fingers crossed his poo will be back to being firm soon enough.

I'm pleased to hear Dylan is still doing ok   keep it up Dyl 

Now it's my turn!  Don't you dare be mad and blame yourself, it's 'not' your fault. You are doing your best for Dylan, always have done and always will.

But...... I do think now that we know more than we did before, we do think what if. But it's still not your fault 

Hope everyone else is doing ok

xx


----------



## Forester

Sarah, I think that the oft used phrase is " hindsight is a wonderful thing ". 
As you have so rightly said, we know more now than we did before.


----------



## sarahecp

Roman's had a poo!! 

It was firm, with a tiny runny bit and no worms


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Roman's had a poo!!
> 
> It was firm, with a tiny runny bit and no worms


One for the diary me thinks..don't forget picture saves a thousand words :devil:


----------



## Vienna1

Quick update, we've been having power cuts tonight so I've lost countless posts! 

Monty ate a tiny bit tonight the rest is us hand or syringe feeding him, he seems tired but has also looked a little more with it when he has been awake. He was watching the red dot off the lazer pointer and looking very interested earlier, doesn't want to chase it but his head was following it round the room. He also allowed me a little cuddle. 

I need to place a zooplus order tomorrow as I've got points that expire on 31st so will check those foods out. I can add more to the considerable cat food mountain we currently have! One thing is for sure if there was a crisis they'd not starve for a long while.

Hope everyone had a quiet day without any tummy troubles. Will catch up properly tomorrow when I get a broadband connection back up.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> One for the diary me thinks..don't forget picture saves a thousand words :devil:


It's in the diary  no pics this time, it got flushed after inspection 



Vienna1 said:


> Quick update, we've been having power cuts tonight so I've lost countless posts!
> 
> Monty ate a tiny bit tonight the rest is us hand or syringe feeding him, he seems tired but has also looked a little more with it when he has been awake. He was watching the red dot off the lazer pointer and looking very interested earlier, doesn't want to chase it but his head was following it round the room. He also allowed me a little cuddle.
> 
> I need to place a zooplus order tomorrow as I've got points that expire on 31st so will check those foods out. I can add more to the considerable cat food mountain we currently have! One thing is for sure if there was a crisis they'd not starve for a long while.
> 
> Hope everyone had a quiet day without any tummy troubles. Will catch up properly tomorrow when I get a broadband connection back up.


Sorry to hear you've been having power cuts 

Pleased to hear Monty has eaten a little bit  hopefully he's eaten some more today.

Could be the chlorambucil making him tired, pleased you got cuddles 

Roman is defiantly back to his usual loony self  been running around like a mad thing  no poo since last nights good one 

Hope everyone is doing ok  xx


----------



## Forester

Pleased to hear that Roman's poo yesterday was good quality with no unwanted extra's.. Hopefully his " blip " is now over.

I'm also happy to hear that Monty has eaten a little and seems brighter. Fingers crossed that his appetite continues to improve. 

Dylan continues to be o k. I've plucked up courage to mix a little Felini , about 1/8 strength, and put this to infuse into tomorrow's rabbit. I'm desperately hoping that it stays down. The idea is to gradually increase the quantity of Felini till he has enough to make his diet balanced. I've also been adding a little left over lamb over the last couple of days with the idea of seeing how he copes with it as I have 4 cans of Macs Sensitive Lamb to try him with at some time. I'm really pleased with how he's doing now , no vomiting and he's managing to eat larger amounts at a time without ill effects.

Thinking of Blue, Meeko, Monty, Riley, Roman, Rosie and respective slaves.


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone 
Hope all ok. We haven't abandoned you but had a bluey blip. Thankfully we are back on track. Started with a few hairball vomits and her pica ie sucking on cellophane. We moved on to loose stools and her eating wrong stuff ie kipper packet which luckily was sicked up. The hairball thing has upset her before. I also think her mousing prowess doesn't help as she is catching about 3 a night. She seems to be eating some of her furry trophies now...yuck. 

Anyway appetite huge and tum n bot back to normal. I think i read an American article about fur balls and a link to ib.

Hope all the gang ok and ha e a firework free ny eve x


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah,
> 
> He's on 2mg once a week for now. He had it this morning and I don't know if it can possibly work that fast but he seems a bit happier this afternoon he's just came downstairs to see us. If we could just think of anything to tempt him to eat I'm sure he'd feel much better. Think I need to research dry food to see if I can find a grain free version that's not applause. He seems like he wants something just nothing we are giving him, he was eyeing a bowl of icecream my husnand was eating with interest. so we thought oh he's hungry and got a 'not a chance' response to everything we offered


I'm surprised at that dose I would have thought they would have gone for every three days with pred support at the least, then taper it down..the b12 injections can help with appetite, it may not work but worth a try too..but they are given weekly for 5 weeks.. Oh and have you tried fortaflora?


----------



## Vienna1

Hi everyone, i've finally got to the computer, 

Firstly Thank you for the parcel Sylv, Monty says thank you as well.

He's still not eating on his own, apart from two tiny strips of turkey. Oddly enough though he saw me giving katalax to the others and looked at me as if he wanted some, he ate it no problem and asked for more. I do wonder if he has a furball as throughout this whole illness he's always been at his worst when he has a furball. it sounds so counterproductive to give katalax but we have discovered it doesn't affect him so its fine according to the vet. 

We've pushed the food today he's been fed hourly just tiny amounts and he looks a little brighter. I do think he looks worse when he has a empty tummy. just hoping the medication helps. 

The vet did say he'd hoped to hold off with the leukeran until the steroids had him feeling a bit better but because of his weight loss we'd start it now. He was given a B12 injection before he had the biopsies taken and it had no effect at all. Also i've not looked into B12 too closely as his blood results came back as being right at the top end of a normal reading so would they still be of benefit? 
Fortaflora is not something i've heard of i'll go off and google that. 

Great to hear Roman and Dylan are doing well, hope everyone else is too.


----------



## Forester

Vienna, I'm glad that Monty's parcel arrived safely. I hope that the contents might tempt him . I do feel for you. Its both physically and mentally draining when you are trying to feed at short intervals. Come on Monty _please _eat.

Just an idea , when my Eric , RIP, had dental problems I managed to tempt him with pilchards in tomato , not something to use frequently but might be worth a try if he likes anything fishy.

I'm pleased that your internet issues seem sorted. Its so frustrating. How on earth did we manage before it existed ?. I'm totally lost , and miserable, without mine.

Hoping that Roman, Riley and Blue keep producing firm poo and that Rosie, Meeko and Monty eat with no "returns".

Dylan continues to be fine . He's eaten 4 meals with a miniscule amount of Felini added and all has stayed down. I suspect the quantity of Felini was so small that its been of more benefit to me ( psychologically ) than to Dylan but its a start.

love and wishes for a Happy New Year and a Healthy 2015 to all.


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> Vienna, I'm glad that Monty's parcel arrived safely. I hope that the contents might tempt him . I do feel for you. Its both physically and mentally draining when you are trying to feed at short intervals. Come on Monty _please _eat.
> 
> Just an idea , when my Eric , RIP, had dental problems I managed to tempt him with pilchards in tomato , not something to use frequently but might be worth a try if he likes anything fishy.
> 
> I'm pleased that your internet issues seem sorted. Its so frustrating. How on earth did we manage before it existed ?. I'm totally lost , and miserable, without mine.
> 
> Hoping that Roman, Riley and Blue keep producing firm poo and that Rosie, Meeko and Monty eat with no "returns".
> 
> Dylan continues to be fine . He's eaten 4 meals with a miniscule amount of Felini added and all has stayed down. I suspect the quantity of Felini was so small that its been of more benefit to me ( psychologically ) than to Dylan but its a start.
> 
> love and wishes for a Happy New Year and a Healthy 2015 to all.


Husband was quickly despatched to local shop and managed to get sardines, I guess they will be just as stinky.

My ENT surgeon friend suggested his nose is probably blocked so to try to flush it with saline which would hopefully bring his sense of smell back. His nose does sound dry so we've tried it once and oddly he didn't mind in the slightesthmy: he then licked the liquid off the tuna which is more than he's done in days. Will try again later suggestion was to do it a few times. His poo is mostly solid with a tiny cow pat consistency on the end. Just wish he'd eat even a small amount on his own.

Sounds like everyone doing well at the minute  let's keep that going into the new year.

Happy new year to everyone, here's hoping for a healthy year for all the IBD clan. xx


----------



## sarahecp

Morning all  and Happy New Year to you and your cats  let's hope we're off to a good start, vomit free and good poo! Oh and no slaves with sore heads this morning  

BC, sorry to hear Blue had a blip, but pleased she's doing ok now  

What is it with Coonies and cellophane  Roman is obsessed, I get chased for the wrapper when I take it off the big bottled water packs and bread wrappers are another favourite, lucky he doesn't eat them, just chews. 

And leave those mice alone Blue! 


Sylv, I'm pleased Dylan is still doing ok  hopefully the Fellini helps him and glad you feel better about giving it to him  


Den, really hope Monty starts to eat on his own soon, smelly fish can sometimes do the trick. A few years ago Frank stopped eating, warmed up tinned mackerel did the trick  

Pleased his poo is firmer, Roman sometimes has a soft/runny bit at the end too. 


Nicola, I hope Riley is still doing well with the emu and I hope Meeko and Rosie are both doing well. 


Roman is still doing ok  I keep thinking about the worms  they're still creeping me out  but I do now think that it was defiantly them that gave him dire rear and a coincidence about feeding the rabbit. 

I will give it a month or so and try him again with it. 


xx


----------



## Forester

Hi Folks 

Its not just Coonies who have a " thing " about cellophane. My moggie Eric, in my avatar was the same. I used to buy bags of Epsom salts to put in the bath water to ease my bad back and he would " bust a gut " to get to the plastic bags they were in. He also had a " thing " about photographs. He loved to lick them. He started it on one of himself. It looked as though he was kissing his image. 

Fingers crossed for good news of Monty . I hope that the sardines did the trick.

Glad that Roman's poo seems better and hoping that Blue, Riley, Rosie and Meeko continue to be o k.

Dylan, what can I say? Felini is off the menu for now as is lamb. One of them has had a terrible effect. . I've given him 2 meals with just boiled rabbit and one has come back, the other still has time. I'm kicking myself for trying to add something else so quickly. Vets have been discussed but we will see how he does for the rest of the day.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> Its not just Coonies who have a " thing " about cellophane. My moggie Eric, in my avatar was the same. I used to buy bags of Epsom salts to put in the bath water to ease my bad back and he would " bust a gut " to get to the plastic bags they were in. He also had a " thing " about photographs. He loved to lick them. He started it on one of himself. It looked as though he was kissing his image.
> 
> Fingers crossed for good news of Monty . I hope that the sardines did the trick.
> 
> Glad that Roman's poo seems better and hoping that Blue, Riley, Rosie and Meeko continue to be o k.
> 
> Dylan, what can I say? Felini is off the menu for now as is lamb. One of them has had a terrible effect. . I've given him 2 meals with just boiled rabbit and one has come back, the other still has time. I'm kicking myself for trying to add something else so quickly. Vets have been discussed but we will see how he does for the rest of the day.


Eric was a cellophane addict too  we also have a licker, Frank, he's licks the brick walls, the wooden gate, the wrought iron fire surround, windows, inside walls and doors, think it's a comfort thing as he kneads thin air as he's doing it 

I'm sorry to hear Dylan has had a blip  at least you have tried and you know what to avoid, fingers crossed he keeps the other 2 meals down.

xx


----------



## Vienna1

Afternoon everyone, 

Monty has crashed completely we are considering taking him up to the hospital although his vet may not be there today, it would be the vet who is on today. He looks so ill, poo is back to almost liquid again. Can hear the wind too in his tummy, he wont even look at food it obviously makes him feel very sick just the look of it starts him swallowing. He looks settled now though since being in the litter tray so I imagine he must have had a pain before. We don't know what to think at this point, he's still on the steroids so don't understand what has happened. I'm panicking about the thought of leaving him when we have to go back to work on Monday. It's like the meds appeared to have stopped working? he was so much better for the first five days and now looks as bad as he did at his worst. So confused and terrified. 


Yes our India loved cellophane too and licking photos, we couldn't leave her a second with a photo. Teddy is a cellophane addict too he can't get his jaw around it fast enough!

Sorry to hear Dylan isn't feeling well today, fingers crossed he will be feeling better as the day progresses.

Glad to hear Roman is doing well.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Afternoon everyone,
> 
> Monty has crashed completely we are considering taking him up to the hospital although his vet may not be there today, it would be the vet who is on today. He looks so ill, poo is back to almost liquid again. Can hear the wind too in his tummy, he wont even look at food it obviously makes him feel very sick just the look of it starts him swallowing. He looks settled now though since being in the litter tray so I imagine he must have had a pain before. We don't know what to think at this point, he's still on the steroids so don't understand what has happened. I'm panicking about the thought of leaving him when we have to go back to work on Monday. It's like the meds appeared to have stopped working? he was so much better for the first five days and now looks as bad as he did at his worst. So confused and terrified.
> 
> Yes our India loved cellophane too and licking photos, we couldn't leave her a second with a photo. Teddy is a cellophane addict too he can't get his jaw around it fast enough!
> 
> Sorry to hear Dylan isn't feeling well today, fingers crossed he will be feeling better as the day progresses.
> 
> Glad to hear Roman is doing well.


Only just seen this - I'm sorry to hear Monty isn't doing too well  I think a trip to the hospital is the best thing, poor little man 

Sending lots of positive vibes and ((((hugs)))) for you both, and hope he'll be ok.

Please let us know how he is xx


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Only just seen this - I'm sorry to hear Monty isn't doing too well  I think a trip to the hospital is the best thing, poor little man
> 
> Sending lots of positive vibes and ((((hugs)))) for you both, and hope he'll be ok.
> 
> Please let us know how he is xx


Hi Sarah, he's settled fast asleep now, looks so settled we are just going to monitor him closely the last time he looked like this they told us to syringe every 90 mins and he picked up. strangely enough my husband had been cooking a roast beef joint and he looked almost interested for a fleeting second then decided against it but where before he was turning his head away he sniffed it. He's had some probiotic paste which the vet prescribed and we'll see if we can get an appointment with his vet tomorrow.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah, he's settled fast asleep now, looks so settled we are just going to monitor him closely the last time he looked like this they told us to syringe every 90 mins and he picked up. strangely enough my husband had been cooking a roast beef joint and he looked almost interested for a fleeting second then decided against it but where before he was turning his head away he sniffed it. He's had some probiotic paste which the vet prescribed and we'll see if we can get an appointment with his vet tomorrow.


Thanks for the update.

Pleased to hear he's settled  It does sounds like he is interested in food by having a sniff but maybe doesn't want to eat incase it makes him feel sick 

xx


----------



## Forester

Oh No 

I'm so sorry to hear that Monty is so poorly again. Its awful for him and for both you, Vienna, and your OH. I am confident that whatever you decide to do this evening will be in Monty's best interests. 

Sending healing vibes for Monty and ((( Hugs ))) for you.

Please let us know how the vet visit goes whenever it is. I will be thinking of you both.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

This is not a response to anything particular on this thread, but I just put it on here as some things to consider when you are choosing which vet may or may not be right for you.

These are my views only. And they're honest.

*1. Not everything is 'upselling'*

I'm sure upselling does occur in certain parts of the veterinary industry. The rise of the corporate practice chains might bring with it more of this, but it's important to remember that not every diagnostic or treatment recommendation immediately constitutes upselling.

If your vet wants to run a blood test before carrying out a general anaesthetic or starting a new medication for your pet - especially if they are older - it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to squeeze more money out of you. It may well be because they are concerned about missing something.

As a vet, imagine administering a medication to an animal with subclinical liver disease that later went on to develop a complication and you hadn't offered a blood screen to look for it first. Or if an animal with back pain later became paralysed and the owner would have gone for an MRI scan to diagnose the IVDD before it got worse, but they weren't aware that this was an option?

It's not the vet's job to make the decision as to whether tests are done or not - that's the owner's - but it is their job to offer them and, if appropriate, recommend or advise them. Just because your vet offers you certain diagnostics, it doesn't mean they're trying to run unnecessary tests on your pet to make money. They may not expect you to go ahead with all tests they offer, or even think that you should (ask them what they think) - but they need to make sure you're aware of all the options open to you.

I'm not saying upselling doesn't go on in some places, but always try to see the difference.

*2. Telephone advice may need to be followed by an appointment*

Vets and vet nurses are always available for advice at the end of the phone, 24/7. Use them. Even if it's 3am in the morning, if you are worried about your pet then you should ring your vet. You may decide to wait until the morning before seeing the vet, but you should never put off asking for advice just because it's the middle of the night.

Remember, vets don't charge for telephone advice.

Now, this leads on from the previous point. Don't take it the wrong way if a vet advises an appointment if you ring for advice. It may be that your pet has a condition that does actually require an examination. The cat straining to urinate could have cystitis or it could be blocked; you need to feel the abdomen to know, and that can't happen over the phone. An animal that's 'lethargic' could have a bit of a viral infection or could be seriously ill. Abdominal palpation, temperature measurement, neurological examinations, heart/chest auscultation - all of these things need to be done hands on.

That aside, vets feel like they should be seen to offer an appointment anyway. As a vet, would you feel comfortable telling someone over the phone that their pet was going to be fine, if there was a chance it might not be and you didn't offer the owner the chance to have the pet checked?

So, while you should always ring your vet if you're worried, don't accuse them of money grabbing just because they ask to see your pet.

*3. Animals must be seen to receive prescription medications*

From the RCVS Professional Code of Conduct:

_4.4 POM-V medicines must be prescribed by a veterinary surgeon, who must first carry out a clinical assessment of the animal under his or her care.

4.9 The Veterinary Medicines Regulations do not define the phrase 'under his care' and the RCVS has interpreted it as meaning that:
a.	the veterinary surgeon must have been given the responsibility for the health of the animal or herd by the owner or the owner's agent
b.	that responsibility must be real and not nominal
c.	the animal or herd must have been seen immediately before prescription or,
d.	recently enough or often enough for the veterinary surgeon to have personal knowledge of the condition of the animal or current health status of the herd or flock to make a diagnosis and prescribe
e.	the veterinary surgeon must maintain clinical records of that herd/flock/individual

4.10 What amounts to 'recent enough' must be a matter for the professional judgement of the veterinary surgeon in the individual case.

4.11 A veterinary surgeon cannot usually have an animal under his or her care if there has been no physical examination; consequently a veterinary surgeon should not treat an animal or prescribe POM-V medicines via the Internet alone._

There it is. The reason vets ask to see pets before they can dispense prescription medications, even boring 'routine' things like wormers and flea treatments (if they are POM-V). For vets to prescribe prescription medications to an animal, it must be legally 'under their care' and this involves examining the animal. This is outside their control; it's the law in the UK, and the VMD do clamp down on this sort of thing.

How recently the animal needs to have been seen depends on the medication, usually. As you can see from the RCVS' interpretation, there is no set frequency and 'recent enough' depends on the individual case. Most practices go with 12 months for routine wormers etc, and if your pet is seen for annual health checks (with or without vaccinations) then they will usually be happy to prescribe POM-V wormers without seeing your pet every single time - though it's down to each practice's own policies.

For other medications, such as hyperthyroidism tablets or insulin for diabetes, they will usually ask to see the pet more often. This is mainly because chronic health conditions can change, especially in elderly animals (one year of their life can equate to several years in human years and health can change dramatically in that time), and doses often need adjusting. Weight can also change and necessitate a change in doses. The RCVS dictates that the animal must be seen recently enough for the vet to have personal knowledge of the animals condition and current health status - so 12 months may be too long.

For such chronic conditions, the frequency of checks will often decrease with time once the animal has proven stable, but most animals need checking more often when they're newly diagnosed or have had a change in their doses or other health conditions.

For things like antibiotics, your vet may well refuse to dispense them at all without seeing the animal first, even if they were only seen a few weeks ago for the same condition. We all have a responsibility to use antibiotics carefully, and prescribing them willy-nilly over the phone isn't good form and the VMD don't look kindly on this.

It is true that some people see this as an excuse to make more money; remember that your vet is entitled to charge for the time spent checking your pet and discussing their condition with you.

*4. Practices cannot compete with the internet*

Animed Direct sells a 32ml bottle of Metacam for £4.50. I'm telling you now, our wholesaler charges us more than that. There is no way we can sell Metacam at that price without making a loss on it.

I know it's getting old now, but it's true: internet pharmacies buy medications cheaper, have fewer overheads, and can sell them cheaper. They don't have to pay VDS subscriptions or buy ultrasound scanners or maintain an X-ray machine.

People will either accept this or not accept it, but I can't really say anything more without repeating what has been said many times in the past.

*5. Dentals often differ in prices at different practices, but not all dentals are created equally*

This seems to be a common source of concern for pet owners, and I agree it can be very confusing. It confuses me, admittedly. Your pet needs a dental and the vet has estimated £400, but the practice down the road says they'll do the same thing for £200. So, the first practice is ripping you off, right? Are they, though? Make sure you're comfortable with the £200 dental before you head that way.

NOT ALL DENTALS ARE CREATED EQUAL!

Let me just say that again, just to be sure: *NOT ALL DENTALS ARE CREATED EQUAL!*

First, what is a 'dental', anyway? Every animal's mouth is different, and it wouldn't be fair to put the same price on every dental. Personally, I'm not a fan of standardised dental prices; I prefer a more individualised approach to cater for every patient. One cat might need two teeth removing; one might need twelve. The cat with two teeth removing could take longer than the one who needs twelve out. Why? Because the first cat might have FORLs, with ankylosed roots that are extremely tricky to extract safely without breaking the jaw or leaving bits behind, and the second cat might have twelve rotten teeth that can be pulled out with fingers in a few minutes. That's why the first cat's dental would probably cost more than the second's at our practice, though some practices have a different pricing system and the second cat's owner might end up paying more just because it had more teeth out, if you see where I'm coming from.

Here's a thing: all human dentists use X-rays. Only about 1/3 of vets do at the moment. Without dental X-rays, you can miss all sorts of problems: subgingival FORLs, root fractures, dentigerous cysts, endodontic disease... the list goes on. Dental X-rays take time to perform and develop, and obviously use more specific consumables - so if these are done, they will increase the bill. Maybe the £400 practice uses dental X-rays and maybe the £200 one doesn't?

My point is, before writing off the £400 practice as a rip-off, ask some questions of both practices. Do the prices include peri-operative monitoring such as blood pressure monitoring? Do they include dental X-rays? What pain relief is used and are post-operative medications included? It may be that actually the £200 practice does represent better value for money after all, but make sure you are being estimated for the same thing at both practices before you decide.

*6. Why vets might take your pet 'out the back'*

For a start, I hate that expression 'out the back'. What a negative thought. I say 'to the prep room', because that's where I'm taking them. I work for a practice that is very open about its way of working and is always happy to show owners around - nowhere is secret (apart from the office, maybe, because it's sometimes a bit of a tip!). Most practices, if you ask, are equally happy to show you around, including 'out the back' - of all the practices I've been in, all of the 'out the back' areas are pretty boring and contain nothing frightening or terrible.

There are a few reasons vets might ask to take your pet elsewhere for a minor procedure such as a blood test, and while none of them are sinister some are potentially a little upsetting.

I'm going to be really honest here, so skip this part if you don't want to read it.

Taking blood can be tricky in some pets. Some sit very quietly, some have excellent veins. Others squirm, fidget or simply become defensive. Others have shocking veins that are difficult to find. It's just like people. But there are a few considerations for the 'difficult' pets that mean drawing blood in the consulting room with the owner present can be more complicated.

Fidgety pets often need firmer restraint. By this, I don't mean violent or cruel restraint, just firm. Some dogs need a muzzle popping on. Some cats need to be wrapped in a towel. Some sit perfectly still but just swear throughout the procedure. I'm not for a minute suggesting that these animals are bad - they're just frightened and we can appreciate that - but if bloods need doing, they need doing. We also need to take safety into account. My best friend is a veterinary nurse and her own elderly cat needs heavy restraint with a towel for blood tests because she gets very defensive and would kill us all - we handle her the same way as we handle other similar cats. Understandably, some owners become upset seeing their pet upset. I do. Sometimes it is better to ask the owner to step out, or to take the pet to a different room - it's surprising how animals pick up on their owner's stress and many are honestly much better once their owner is out the room.

Of course, many pets ARE better with their owner present and most vets will try to accommodate this. We usually prefer you not to hold your pet though, because it often requires skilled handling (nurses are awesome at holding dogs and cats, much better than I am anyway), plus we don't want owners to get scratched or bitten by accident, and it leaves the owner free to concentrate on talking to the animal and, if appropriate, stroking their head etc.

Honestly - sometimes it's simply because we have a limited number of nurses on that day and it's impossible for one of them to leave the prep area to come and help me in a room. It's quicker for me to pop the animal over to prep, get the sample and come back.

Always speak to your vet if you have any concerns about your pet being separated from you, but try not to worry. The vast majority of vets and nurses I've worked with are gentle and compassionate.

*7. Some vets are cold; most are just trying to protect themselves*

Bedside manner. Not all doctors, or vets, have it. Sometimes we hear of vets described as cold, unfeeling or clinical. Maybe some are (I've yet to meet one), but a fair number act that way to protect themselves.

It's no secret that the mental health of the veterinary profession isn't as good as we'd like it to be. By their very nature, veterinary surgeons tend to be high achievers and perfectionists who have worked very hard to get into and through vet school. They beat themselves up a lot. They take it badly when things go wrong. Suicide rates are still frighteningly high and the profession is working to address this.

They also see a lot of sick animals. Thankfully, most of these have kind and vigilant owners. Some don't. Some have ignorant owners. Sadly, some have cruel or uncaring owners. Vets see a lot of death, a lot of suffering, and often bring themselves to question humankind as a result.

This combination of circumstances can make veterinary professionals try to 'switch off' for their own self-protection. This can, regrettably, come across as 'cold' in some cases. But sometimes it's an intentional necessity, and sometimes it's a mere side effect of the job. Look up 'compassion fatigue' - it's a real thing. I love my job, but in some ways it has messed me up a bit and I'm now on medication. Not the only one either, unfortunately.

If you feel your vet is consistently unfeeling or overly clinical, and you're not comfortable with that, then by all means see another. But if it's a one-off thing, or it's the first time you've met them, give them the benefit of the doubt. You don't know what else they've had to deal with that day. Maybe just ten minutes earlier they had to euthanase a horrendous neglect case and try to comfort their normally tough nurse who was crying over it (yes, this actually happened to me).

You can also bet your bottom dollar that when something goes wrong, or a patient is lost, vets feel like s**t about it. They go home and feel awful. Some will cry uncontrollably for an extended period (been there). Some will go out for a walk that weekend to try and take their mind off things, but end up crying again in the middle of the woods because they feel guilty for trying to take their mind off things (been there). Some will take it further, and some vets lose their lives over it.

I'm a cynic by nature, but I don't think any 12-year-old says 'I want to be a vet' because they are thinking about money. They all love animals. Yes, the profession changes you in many ways, but virtually all vets still love animals and are in it because they want to help them. Most have their own pets at home. There are much easier ways to make money with a veterinary degree than be in practice. Most of us would probably do our jobs for free if it wasn't for the fact that we have houses, cars, families etc to support, but sadly we all know this is the real world and it does have to be a job as well as a calling.

All I can say is, remember vets are people. Most of them really nice people. They make mistakes, they say stupid things sometimes, they forget stuff. But as a rule they try hard, adore animals, and do their best to help owners and their pets.

Just a little plea from me: when you speak about vets, be discerning. But be nice as well.


----------



## bluecordelia

Get well Monty.

I would keep syringing cool boiled water to hydrate n keep his kidneys with enough volume. You could steep it with tuna as most cats will tolerate this better than plain water. Blue always would eat thank goodness. Big hugs for your boy. 

The emu is an interesting food. I am quite partial to it myself!

Everyone look after yourselves..we have lounged all day. Ivan n blue have taken to sitting on a wicker chair brought in just as a spare...the pica thing with blue seems to get worse before a poorly do. We used to get mad kneading of mirrors and glass but this is less these days. I still blame early weaning and the dry food she had early on but hey i couldn't do without my quirky girl!

Happy new year everyone and wishing we all have an ok year x


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## sarahecp

Den, how's Monty today?

Hope he's a lot better xx


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## Forester

Sending all the vibes I can muster for Monty.


Dyl's blip is over, thank goodness. I'll be sticking to just plain boiled rabbit for a while . I despair as to how on earth I'm going to get him back onto a balanced diet.

love to all, as always.


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## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Den, how's Monty today?
> 
> Hope he's a lot better xx


Hi Sarah, I'm saying a tentative a little better. He's had tuna water without forcing it down him he's also had a lick of some thrive chicken its as if he's just on the point of wanting to eat. I've spoken to the vet this morning and he feels it may be his body adjusting to the new medication this was the reason he'd hoped to reduce the steroids first. He knows we can syringe feed so has said persevere for three days and if he doesn't pick up take him in. Obviously in the meantime if he's any worse then take him straight in. 
He's had a poo early this morning and it was like toothpaste consistency so the paste seems to have helped. The best thing really is he sat and had a good wash of his face which I always think is a good sign, the last two days he just couldn't be bothered.



Forester said:


> Sending all the vibes I can muster for Monty.
> 
> Dyl's blip is over, thank goodness. I'll be sticking to just plain boiled rabbit for a while . I despair as to how on earth I'm going to get him back onto a balanced diet.
> 
> love to all, as always.


Thank you we really appreciate everyone rooting for him it means a lot.

Glad to hear Dylan is feeling better


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Sending all the vibes I can muster for Monty.
> 
> Dyl's blip is over, thank goodness. I'll be sticking to just plain boiled rabbit for a while . I despair as to how on earth I'm going to get him back onto a balanced diet.
> 
> love to all, as always.


I'm pleased Dyl's blip is over  

Have you thought about trying one of the other VC foods? The ostrich or buffalo?

xx


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah, I'm saying a tentative a little better. He's had tuna water without forcing it down him he's also had a lick of some thrive chicken its as if he's just on the point of wanting to eat. I've spoken to the vet this morning and he feels it may be his body adjusting to the new medication this was the reason he'd hoped to reduce the steroids first. He knows we can syringe feed so has said persevere for three days and if he doesn't pick up take him in. Obviously in the meantime if he's any worse then take him straight in.
> He's had a poo early this morning and it was like toothpaste consistency so the paste seems to have helped. The best thing really is he sat and had a good wash of his face which I always think is a good sign, the last two days he just couldn't be bothered.
> 
> Thank you we really appreciate everyone rooting for him it means a lot.
> 
> Glad to hear Dylan is feeling better


A little bit is better than none and he licked and drank of his own accord, so that's good 

Sounds like the probiotic has helped a bit, the paste and granules did nothing for Roman.

He must be feeling a bit better to have a wash, bless him.

Sending lots more vibes and hope he's eating more and feeling better soon xx


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## Kitchen Maid

A very intelligent and thought-provoking post, Shoshannah. It certainly made me think twice about how I feel about the Head Vet at our local practice in Kent. She has this 'cold, defensive' air but I put that down to her being more of a 'dog person' than a cat one. Perhaps I've totally misjudged her.

I can quite understand why there is a high suicide rate amongst vets - I don't know who was more relieved when we took Blackie in with his first bout of FIC ... the vet (another one, not the Head) ... because he told us that within 24 hours Blackie might have died and only 2 days earlier, a couple had brought their cat in too late and he'd been unable to save it. The couple were, he said, in floods of tears, as we would have been if Blackie had died. To see 2 cats die of the same problem within 2 days would surely have been very distressing for this vet.

I was also interested to read the part about dentals. During Blackie's annual booster visit in early December, the vet (at a clinic here in NSomerset) told us she had a half-price offer on teeth cleaning for £80 (normally £160). As it happens we didn't take up the offer due to illness (ours not the cats!) but it never occurred to me to ask about x-rays etc or exactly what the treatment involved - except removal of plaque. I did ask her if she thought it absolutely necessary - she said it was our call, but though his gums were not inflamed, she did think it would have to be done sooner or later (he will be 12 next month). 

I wouldn't say she upsells particularly - she did think it was right that Blackie had a urine test due to having 2 bouts of FIC earlier this year (all results 100%) but it was me that asked if he should have a blood test which she said could be done at the same time as having his teeth cleaned and would cost an additional £40 - which seemed cheap to me - but again, I didn't ask what the test covers.

As a fairly novice cat owner, I do rely on any vet to tell me what treatment is really needed, options, what's involved, cost etc as I've no doubt I would forget to ask all the right questions


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah, I'm saying a tentative a little better. He's had tuna water without forcing it down him he's also had a lick of some thrive chicken its as if he's just on the point of wanting to eat. I've spoken to the vet this morning and he feels it may be his body adjusting to the new medication this was the reason he'd hoped to reduce the steroids first. He knows we can syringe feed so has said persevere for three days and if he doesn't pick up take him in. Obviously in the meantime if he's any worse then take him straight in.
> He's had a poo early this morning and it was like toothpaste consistency so the paste seems to have helped. The best thing really is he sat and had a good wash of his face which I always think is a good sign, the last two days he just couldn't be bothered.
> 
> Thank you we really appreciate everyone rooting for him it means a lot.
> 
> Glad to hear Dylan is feeling better


Thanks, Vienna. That sounds like positive news for Monty. He must have felt pretty rotten to have not wanted to wash. It sounds as though he's starting to want to eat now. Sending more positive vibes his way. Fingers crossed that he continues to improve.

Your good wishes for Dylan are greatly appreciated. I'm happy that he's back to his " improved condition". He woke me several times last night asking for food and all has stayed down.

Sending love to all


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm pleased Dyl's blip is over
> 
> Have you thought about trying one of the other VC foods? The ostrich or buffalo?
> 
> xx


Thanks, he's back to how he was before the " blip " now .

Sadly, I don't plan to try any of the other VC foods due to the offal levels. If my translation of Sarah Reiter's e-mail was correct they are far too high to be worth trying for Dylan.

My home cooked rabbit was , I would guess, about 15% offal. Excluding that 15% has brought about a marked improvement. I get the impression that I'm going to find it impossible to find a commercial diet which is both chicken and offal free. I despair of how I'm going to be able to give him a balanced diet. His reaction at the weekend was truly awful, whether it was the lamb or the Felini I can't be sure but I suspect the Felini. I will try it again sometime but would not want to repeat New Years Eve /Day's episode in a hurry.

I've got some Macs Sensitive lamb to try ( approx. 26% offal ) but I'm now planning to wait several weeks before trying it. My hope is that if he can have a sustained period without vomiting then his gut may start to heal making a reaction less likely.

I've also got some Protexin Pro kolin Enterogenic sachets to try at some time in the hope that they might help to protect his gut.

Are you planning to try either the ostrich or buffalo with Roman ?


----------



## Vienna1

Well Monty is looking a lot brighter than over the last couple of days. He even got out of bed and came over to show his bum to my husband! then head butted him for about five mnutes. He hasn't done that for ages.

He's weak that's obvious and his weight has dropped again so we have a battle to get enough calories to try to get a little back on him. We just tried him again with a little thrive chicken in broth and although he wouldn't eat the chicken he did eat some broth. The most positive thing though when I went to feed him earlier armed with a syringe and a bowl of convalescence diet he took about 3ml licking it himself from my finger, considering he's only on 5ml feeds that's quite good. His capacity for food has obviously greatly reduced so we are going to try to increase the 5ml gradually to get him used to larger amounts again. He's now sitting at the very top of the new scratching post and looks so different from new years eve.


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## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Well Monty is looking a lot brighter than over the last couple of days. He even got out of bed and came over to show his bum to my husband! then head butted him for about five mnutes. He hasn't done that for ages.
> 
> He's weak that's obvious and his weight has dropped again so we have a battle to get enough calories to try to get a little back on him. We just tried him again with a little thrive chicken in broth and although he wouldn't eat the chicken he did eat some broth. The most positive thing though when I went to feed him earlier armed with a syringe and a bowl of convalescence diet he took about 3ml licking it himself from my finger, considering he's only on 5ml feeds that's quite good. His capacity for food has obviously greatly reduced so we are going to try to increase the 5ml gradually to get him used to larger amounts again. He's now sitting at the very top of the new scratching post and looks so different from new years eve.


Oh Vienna, Its great news that he's feeling brighter.  If he's taking some food of his own volition that must also be a positive sign.

Are you and OH able to take it in turns over the feeding.? You must be exhausted. I remember syringe feeding a very young kitten , round the clock ,many years ago . After a few days I did a very good zombie impression.

Topping up those vibes for Monty, and ((( Hugs ))) for you.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks, he's back to how he was before the " blip " now .
> 
> Sadly, I don't plan to try any of the other VC foods due to the offal levels. If my translation of Sarah Reiter's e-mail was correct they are far too high to be worth trying for Dylan.
> 
> My home cooked rabbit was , I would guess, about 15% offal. Excluding that 15% has brought about a marked improvement. I get the impression that I'm going to find it impossible to find a commercial diet which is both chicken and offal free. I despair of how I'm going to be able to give him a balanced diet. His reaction at the weekend was truly awful, whether it was the lamb or the Felini I can't be sure but I suspect the Felini. I will try it again sometime but would not want to repeat New Years Eve /Day's episode in a hurry.
> 
> I've got some Macs Sensitive lamb to try ( approx. 26% offal ) but I'm now planning to wait several weeks before trying it. My hope is that if he can have a sustained period without vomiting then his gut may start to heal making a reaction less likely.
> 
> I've also got some Protexin Pro kolin Enterogenic sachets to try at some time in the hope that they might help to protect his gut.
> 
> Are you planning to try either the ostrich or buffalo with Roman ?


That's great news   pleased Dyl is back to doing ok   and hope he keeps it up 

I think you're right in not trying anything new for a while. I've decided I will try the rabbit again but will give it a month or so and try again then. I would like to try the buffalo and ostrich too.

I've been thinking about probiotics for Roman, I had some of those sachets and he wouldn't touch the food it was sprinkled on, neither would Frank or Seb  I've used Pro Kolin paste in the past before I knew about his IBD and it did nothing for his dire rear but might help his gut, I will ask Patricia's advice when I speak to her on 12th.

Mum to Missy recommended a probiotic called Zoolac that she gives to Evie, she said Evie takes it quite well and it's not like the Pro Kolin paste.

xx



Vienna1 said:


> Well Monty is looking a lot brighter than over the last couple of days. He even got out of bed and came over to show his bum to my husband! then head butted him for about five mnutes. He hasn't done that for ages.
> 
> He's weak that's obvious and his weight has dropped again so we have a battle to get enough calories to try to get a little back on him. We just tried him again with a little thrive chicken in broth and although he wouldn't eat the chicken he did eat some broth. The most positive thing though when I went to feed him earlier armed with a syringe and a bowl of convalescence diet he took about 3ml licking it himself from my finger, considering he's only on 5ml feeds that's quite good. His capacity for food has obviously greatly reduced so we are going to try to increase the 5ml gradually to get him used to larger amounts again. He's now sitting at the very top of the new scratching post and looks so different from new years eve.


That's great news   so pleased and happy Monty has brightened up and has eaten on his own  way to go Monty :thumbup:

Head butts and sitting at the top of the scratch post  sounds like he's defiantly feeling better  

Fingers crossed this is a step forward in the right direction and he continues to improve.

xx


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> Oh Vienna, Its great news that he's feeling brighter.  If he's taking some food of his own volition that must also be a positive sign.
> 
> Are you and OH able to take it in turns over the feeding.? You must be exhausted. I remember syringe feeding a very young kitten , round the clock ,many years ago . After a few days I did a very good zombie impression.
> 
> Topping up those vibes for Monty, and ((( Hugs ))) for you.


Thank you

Most of the hand feeding is being done by my husband at the minute as Monty is such a daddy's boy. At night we've been setting the alarm for 2, 4 and 6am to feed him but usually i'm still awake by 2 so I do that then he gets up at 4 & 6 to do those. At the minute its fine with us being off work but Monday all that will change which is really worrying me already. The thought of having to leave him and then there's also the problem of not being able to feed him regularly. Obviously I won't be able to sit surfing the internet until 2am when I have to be up at 6.30 for work so it's going to be difficult. I'm trying not to stress about it but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Thank you
> 
> Most of the hand feeding is being done by my husband at the minute as Monty is such a daddy's boy. At night we've been setting the alarm for 2, 4 and 6am to feed him but usually i'm still awake by 2 so I do that then he gets up at 4 & 6 to do those. At the minute its fine with us being off work but Monday all that will change which is really worrying me already. The thought of having to leave him and then there's also the problem of not being able to feed him regularly. Obviously I won't be able to sit surfing the internet until 2am when I have to be up at 6.30 for work so it's going to be difficult. I'm trying not to stress about it but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried.


I can understand you being worried about going back to work on Monday. Hopefully Monty will start eating more on his own over the weekend but doesn't stop you worrying though.

Is there anyone that could come in to do the feeding while you're not there?

xx


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## buffie

Morning all ,just thought I would drop by.
Hope all IBD'ers cats and slaves are doing okay.
I see we have a new member to our little gang,sorry Vienna and Monty that you have had join us,hope Monty continues to improve.
Have been reading,not posting, but have been keeping up to speed with progress and the "not so good" reports.
Meeko is just the same,still eating his wet food,not as much as I would like but at least its "wet" 
His "returns" are much the same sometimes every couple of days but can go nearly a week so no real pattern other than always late evening ,early morning.
This of course means the inevitable Meeko's choice of surface to be used and that is rarely "easy clean" 

Lets hope that 2015 brings all of our masters/mistresses some relief from this bl**dy awful condition .


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Thank you
> 
> Most of the hand feeding is being done by my husband at the minute as Monty is such a daddy's boy. At night we've been setting the alarm for 2, 4 and 6am to feed him but usually i'm still awake by 2 so I do that then he gets up at 4 & 6 to do those. At the minute its fine with us being off work but Monday all that will change which is really worrying me already. The thought of having to leave him and then there's also the problem of not being able to feed him regularly. Obviously I won't be able to sit surfing the internet until 2am when I have to be up at 6.30 for work so it's going to be difficult. I'm trying not to stress about it but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried.


Does anyone in your area offer a _high quality _pet sitting service. ? In this area there used to be a service run by an ex veterinary nurse who was willing to undertake hand feeding, medicine administration and similar tasks.
I have , in the past ,made an arrangement with my boss to take an extra break in order to pop home to administer meds, making the time up later. Another option might be to see if your vet could offer " day care ". It might give you some peace of mind.

Sending more vibes and hoping that Monty will be eating on his own accord before Monday comes along.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Morning all ,just thought I would drop by.
> Hope all IBD'ers cats and slaves are doing okay.
> I see we have a new member to our little gang,sorry Vienna and Monty that you have had join us,hope Monty continues to improve.
> Have been reading,not posting, but have been keeping up to speed with progress and the "not so good" reports.
> Meeko is just the same,still eating his wet food,not as much as I would like but at least its "wet"
> His "returns" are much the same sometimes every couple of days but can go nearly a week so no real pattern other than always late evening ,early morning.
> This of course means the inevitable Meeko's choice of surface to be used and that is rarely "easy clean"
> 
> Lets hope that 2015 brings all of our masters/mistresses some relief from this bl**dy awful condition .


Its good to see you around , buffie. I hope that you had a good Christmas and New Year. . I'm relieved that you didn't freeze to death whilst keeping the door open for the Magnificent One to spend time in his run.

I'm pleased to hear that Meeko's condition is stable and that he's eating _some _wet. Sending a few eating vibes his way.


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## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Morning all ,just thought I would drop by.
> Hope all IBD'ers cats and slaves are doing okay.
> I see we have a new member to our little gang,sorry Vienna and Monty that you have had join us,hope Monty continues to improve.
> Have been reading,not posting, but have been keeping up to speed with progress and the "not so good" reports.
> Meeko is just the same,still eating his wet food,not as much as I would like but at least its "wet"
> His "returns" are much the same sometimes every couple of days but can go nearly a week so no real pattern other than always late evening ,early morning.
> This of course means the inevitable Meeko's choice of surface to be used and that is rarely "easy clean"
> 
> Lets hope that 2015 brings all of our masters/mistresses some relief from this bl**dy awful condition .


Hi Buffie and Mr M  

Glad to hear Meeko is still eating wet food 

Yes, let's hope this year is a good one for them all.

xx


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Its good to see you around , buffie. *I hope that you had a good Christmas and New Year. :*). I'm relieved that you didn't freeze to death whilst keeping the door open for the Magnificent One to spend time in his run.
> 
> I'm pleased to hear that Meeko's condition is stable and that he's eating _some _wet. Sending a few eating vibes his way.


Thanks  it was very quiet here,I was fighting my way through a fog of coughing etc not a pretty sight I can assure you  probably not helped by the magnificent Mr M needing his access 
Eating vibes are gratefully received , I can usually get him to eat around 150g of wet which seems to be enough to maintain his weight but I would like him to put a bit back on as he is nearly 1kg lighter than he was 2 years ago  Fairly sure he would gain if I gave him some dry but concerned it may affect his urine again .


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Hi Buffie and Mr M
> 
> Glad to hear Meeko is still eating wet food
> 
> *Yes, let's hope this year is a good one for them all*.
> 
> xx


It isn't a lot to ask,is it , surely we are all due a break .


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Sending all the vibes I can muster for Monty.
> 
> Dyl's blip is over, thank goodness. I'll be sticking to just plain boiled rabbit for a while . I despair as to how on earth I'm going to get him back onto a balanced diet.
> 
> love to all, as always.


What about feeding mice? You can buy them from pet food stores, not sure on the offal content, but I'm sure Google could help..


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Thanks  it was very quiet here,I was fighting my way through a fog of coughing etc not a pretty sight I can assure you  probably not helped by the magnificent Mr M needing his access
> Eating vibes are gratefully received , I can usually get him to eat around 150g of wet which seems to be enough to maintain his weight but I would like him to put a bit back on as he is nearly 1kg lighter than he was 2 years ago  Fairly sure he would gain if I gave him some dry but concerned it may affect his urine again .


Sorry to hear that you've been under the weather. I hope that you're fighting fit again now.

I'm sure that you're doing the right thing in refusing to give Meeko dry food . Neither of you need plumbing issues again.

I know that Meeko's fussier than fussy  but if you'd like to try him with any of the chicken based sensitive foods I have a massive supply which I don't think that Dylan is ever going to be able to eat. On a more positive note you do at least have the peace of mind that Meeko's diet is complete. Its even crossed my mind that perhaps I should try Dyl with the z/d dry  , and you know how I feel about that  , in an effort to make his diet complete .


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## nicolaa123

Or this? Miamor Mild Meal 6 x 100g | Free P&P on orders £29+ at zooplus!

Contains no offal apparently, I know chicken flavour..but an option?


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## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> What about feeding mice? You can buy them from pet food stores, not sure on the offal content, but I'm sure Google could help..


Thanks for that suggestion Nicola  I've been thinking along similar lines . Chillminx suggested wood pigeon which I think is a good idea , though supply could be difficult. I worry that I might be putting him at risk if I try feeding raw whilst his gut is obviously so delicate.( The New Years Eve/ Day experience was horrible ). Everything that's balanced is going to have offal in. If I cook I'm going to lose more nutrients. I've got to try something though.

ATM I'm feeding the rabbit's kidneys ,although not the liver and heart, and he is fine with that. I may add some heart to the next lot and see whether that causes any reaction. My gut instinct is that its the liver, or the sheer volume of liver which makes him vomit. I'm amazed at how small the hearts are and how huge the liver.

How's Riley getting along with Emu ?


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Sorry to hear that you've been under the weather. I hope that you're fighting fit again now.
> 
> I'm sure that you're doing the right thing in refusing to give Meeko dry food . Neither of you need plumbing issues again.
> 
> I know that Meeko's fussier than fussy  but if you'd like to try him with any of the chicken based sensitive foods I have a massive supply which I don't think that Dylan is ever going to be able to eat. On a more positive note you do at least have the peace of mind that Meeko's diet is complete. Its even crossed my mind that perhaps I should try Dyl with the z/d dry  , and you know how I feel about that  , in an effort to make his diet complete .


Thanks for the offer,but I honestly think it would be a waste of food,he just will not eat anything that might be in the least bit good for him.
To be honest I'm not 100% convinced his problem is solely triggered by food type ,if it was he should surely react to it everytime and not days apart


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Thanks for that suggestion Nicola  I've been thinking along similar lines . Chillminx suggested wood pigeon which I think is a good idea , though supply could be difficult. I worry that I might be putting him at risk if I try feeding raw whilst his gut is obviously so delicate.( The New Years Eve/ Day experience was horrible ). Everything that's balanced is going to have offal in. If I cook I'm going to lose more nutrients. I've got to try something though.
> 
> ATM I'm feeding the rabbit's kidneys ,although not the liver and heart, and he is fine with that. I may add some heart to the next lot and see whether that causes any reaction. My gut instinct is that its the liver, or the sheer volume of liver which makes him vomit. I'm amazed at how small the hearts are and how huge the liver.
> 
> How's Riley getting along with Emu ?


It's all worth the experiment as that's the only time you will find out, in case you missed the link (last post on the other page)

Miamor Mild Meal 6 x 100g | Free P&P on orders £29+ at zooplus!

Is a food with no offal, I know it has chicken but still could be worth a try and is complete.

We have run out of ostrich, I only ordered the small cans in case of reaction, so I will order some more next week for him as he seemed to be ok with it, interestingly the ostrich has inulin in also. So looks like it was the goat that was the issue and not the inulin.

I may try buffalo tonight with him as if ok I will order buffalo and ostrich for him.

Once I've got the next order am happy to post a tin of any for any who want to try it with their cats


----------



## nicolaa123

buffie said:


> Morning all ,just thought I would drop by.
> Hope all IBD'ers cats and slaves are doing okay.
> I see we have a new member to our little gang,sorry Vienna and Monty that you have had join us,hope Monty continues to improve.
> Have been reading,not posting, but have been keeping up to speed with progress and the "not so good" reports.
> Meeko is just the same,still eating his wet food,not as much as I would like but at least its "wet"
> His "returns" are much the same sometimes every couple of days but can go nearly a week so no real pattern other than always late evening ,early morning.
> This of course means the inevitable Meeko's choice of surface to be used and that is rarely "easy clean"
> 
> Lets hope that 2015 brings all of our masters/mistresses some relief from this bl**dy awful condition .


Good to hear he is at least stable in his returns..I'm a bit the same, as long as we don't get to be every day again I'm happy, riley is about 4 times in a fortnight, he loves the ostrich and it hasn't caused major issues so hopefully we have found a second food for him!


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Or this? Miamor Mild Meal 6 x 100g | Free P&P on orders £29+ at zooplus!
> 
> Contains no offal apparently, I know chicken flavour..but an option?


Its the chicken that's the problem.  The RCSC was 40% chicken and withdrawing that brought about a phenomenal improvement.

I know that I sound as though I'm never satisfied . Everything that I've found without offal is either chicken or turkey. I imagine its because chicken and turkey are the cheapest meats and that offal is cheaper than muscle meat.

Surely there must be others with cats with the same issues somewhere. What on earth do they feed ? Chicken is not an unusual protein for causing a problem and it seems that an intolerance of offal is also not uncommon. Its just so frustrating. He doesn't vomit at all on the boiled rabbit ,without offal ,and nothing added  he just can't live on it .


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Thanks for the offer,but I honestly think it would be a waste of food,he just will not eat anything that might be in the least bit good for him.
> To be honest I'm not 100% convinced his problem is solely triggered by food type ,if it was he should surely react to it everytime and not days apart


No worries. I was just thinking that I have a mountain of food and would rather it was used by " one of us  "


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> It's all worth the experiment as that's the only time you will find out, in case you missed the link (last post on the other page)
> 
> Miamor Mild Meal 6 x 100g | Free P&P on orders £29+ at zooplus!
> 
> Is a food with no offal, I know it has chicken but still could be worth a try and is complete.


You have a good point there. Perhaps the RCSC has a high level of offal ( RC don't declare very precise ingredients )and it was the offal rather than the chicken which caused the problem.

Does buffie still have a supply of straightjackets ?:lol::mad2: :lol: :crazy:

Edited to add . I've just found one , Yipee http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/miamor/miamor_trays/377490


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> You have a good point there. Perhaps the RCSC has a high level of offal ( RC don't declare very precise ingredients )and it was the offal rather than the chicken which caused the problem.
> 
> Does buffie still have a supply of straightjackets ?:lol::mad2: :lol: :crazy:
> 
> Edited to add . I've just found one , Yipee http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/miamor/miamor_trays/377490[/QUOTE
> 
> If only you could just order one or two tins tho..
> 
> The trays you found are they low in offal then? Yippe if it's a tryer!


----------



## Forester

[/QUOTE

If only you could just order one or two tins tho..

The trays you found are they low in offal then? Yippe if it's a tryer![/QUOTE]

*No offal !*

I have absolutely no problem with half a dozen foils. I've made the mistake in the past of ordering 18 cans ( more than once ) thinking he was o k with the product. The little tinker is sometimes o k for a can or two , and then reacts.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> [/QUOTE
> 
> If only you could just order one or two tins tho..
> 
> The trays you found are they low in offal then? Yippe if it's a tryer!


*No offal !*

I have absolutely no problem with half a dozen foils. I've made the mistake in the past of ordering 18 cans ( more than once ) thinking he was o k with the product. The little tinker is sometimes o k for a can or two , and then reacts.[/QUOTE]

Oh I so hope the food will be accepted, remember slowly slowly slowly slowly will keep all crossed for you both!!


----------



## sarahecp

Can't quote again 


Sylv, that's great you've found a food with no offal :thumbup:

Keeping fingers and everything that can be crossed it's the 'one' for Dylan 

xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> *No offal !*
> 
> I have absolutely no problem with half a dozen foils. I've made the mistake in the past of ordering 18 cans ( more than once ) thinking he was o k with the product. The little tinker is sometimes o k for a can or two , and then reacts.


Oh I so hope the food will be accepted, remember slowly slowly slowly slowly will keep all crossed for you both!![/QUOTE]

Thank you


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Can't quote again
> 
> Sylv, that's great you've found a food with no offal :thumbup:
> 
> Keeping fingers and everything that can be crossed it's the 'one' for Dylan
> 
> xx


Thanks , Sarah.

Its doing strange things with the quotes now.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks , Sarah.
> 
> Its doing strange things with the quotes now.


I saw that  very strange  It's been a bit odd today, I tried to reply earlier and wouldn't let me submit


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Does buffie still have a supply of straightjackets ?:lol::mad2: :lol: :crazy:












new sexy version


----------



## Vienna1

Ok this is my last attempt at posting tonight, I've lost about five attempts so far! Can't quote either! 

Monty still completely refusing food, so its still force feeding, we've tried turkey breast today still warm then liquidised and syringed. He does a good impression of a baby spitting their food at you. it would be funny if it wasn't so worrying. His weight has dropped again! 

Re anyone coming in to look after him while we are at work there is nobody, the closest anyone is that we could trust is 2 hours away. I did wonder about the vets but the problem there is when he was there last time and still had an appetite he stopped eating for days after being there so think upsetting him could make things worse still. On Monday my husband is going to leave at 8.30
so he will get fed a couple of times before we leave. I'm working close enough to be able to come home for ten minutes at lunchtime so will pop in and feed him at about 1.30 then should be home by 5. On Monday I will find out where i'm working Tuesday so if I'm local enough to get home will do the same again if I'm not local then we will have to cross that bridge on Monday when I find out. Work would not be understanding of the situation at all, so it's pointless asking for help there. I'm off from Wednesday until the following Monday so just got to get through two days. 

Oh just remembered I ordered the fortiflora which arrived today, still didn't tempt Monty but Bailey, Vienna and Teddy followed me everywhere after I opened a sachet. It must smell so good to them 

Just wondering obviously Monty suffers from soft or liquid poo but just curious about the cats that vomit. Is it a case of food returning straight back up or is it later on? 

The food would be so much easier if it were readily available at petshops to try it before ordering huge amounts. We can barely get into our utility room for cat food. I was just thinking the other day the cat and dog shelter may take some as they must get poorly cats in that a special diet would help. I might ring them tomorrow and ask if they are willing to take open bags, still got a bag of rice crispies  its only had about 100g out of it and I never want to repeat the result we had from that food experiment 

Hope everyone having a stress free time with trouble free cats tonight


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> new sexy version


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Ok this is my last attempt at posting tonight, I've lost about five attempts so far! Can't quote either!
> 
> Monty still completely refusing food, so its still force feeding, we've tried turkey breast today still warm then liquidised and syringed. He does a good impression of a baby spitting their food at you. it would be funny if it wasn't so worrying. His weight has dropped again!
> 
> Re anyone coming in to look after him while we are at work there is nobody, the closest anyone is that we could trust is 2 hours away. I did wonder about the vets but the problem there is when he was there last time and still had an appetite he stopped eating for days after being there so think upsetting him could make things worse still. On Monday my husband is going to leave at 8.30
> so he will get fed a couple of times before we leave. I'm working close enough to be able to come home for ten minutes at lunchtime so will pop in and feed him at about 1.30 then should be home by 5. On Monday I will find out where i'm working Tuesday so if I'm local enough to get home will do the same again if I'm not local then we will have to cross that bridge on Monday when I find out. Work would not be understanding of the situation at all, so it's pointless asking for help there. I'm off from Wednesday until the following Monday so just got to get through two days.
> 
> Oh just remembered I ordered the fortiflora which arrived today, still didn't tempt Monty but Bailey, Vienna and Teddy followed me everywhere after I opened a sachet. It must smell so good to them
> 
> Just wondering obviously Monty suffers from soft or liquid poo but just curious about the cats that vomit. Is it a case of food returning straight back up or is it later on?
> 
> The food would be so much easier if it were readily available at petshops to try it before ordering huge amounts. We can barely get into our utility room for cat food. I was just thinking the other day the cat and dog shelter may take some as they must get poorly cats in that a special diet would help. I might ring them tomorrow and ask if they are willing to take open bags, still got a bag of rice crispies  its only had about 100g out of it and I never want to repeat the result we had from that food experiment
> 
> Hope everyone having a stress free time with trouble free cats tonight


I'm sorry to hear Monty is refusing food  Oh Monty  what are we going to do with you, you need to eat little man, you're making your mum and dad very worried and us too 

I know what you mean about work 

It's a shame you have no one close you can trust but sounds like you have Monday and Tuesday thought through 

Fortiflora, another thing Roman wouldn't touch either, Frank loved it 

I'm sure the shelter will be grateful for the food 

Sylv and Buffie will be able to advise/help on the vomiting side of things.

Sending bucket loads of positive vibes for Monty and ((((hugs)))) to you both xx


----------



## nicolaa123

buffie said:


> new sexy version




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Ok this is my last attempt at posting tonight, I've lost about five attempts so far! Can't quote either!
> 
> Monty still completely refusing food, so its still force feeding, we've tried turkey breast today still warm then liquidised and syringed. He does a good impression of a baby spitting their food at you. it would be funny if it wasn't so worrying. His weight has dropped again!
> 
> Re anyone coming in to look after him while we are at work there is nobody, the closest anyone is that we could trust is 2 hours away. I did wonder about the vets but the problem there is when he was there last time and still had an appetite he stopped eating for days after being there so think upsetting him could make things worse still. On Monday my husband is going to leave at 8.30
> so he will get fed a couple of times before we leave. I'm working close enough to be able to come home for ten minutes at lunchtime so will pop in and feed him at about 1.30 then should be home by 5. On Monday I will find out where i'm working Tuesday so if I'm local enough to get home will do the same again if I'm not local then we will have to cross that bridge on Monday when I find out. Work would not be understanding of the situation at all, so it's pointless asking for help there. I'm off from Wednesday until the following Monday so just got to get through two days.
> 
> Oh just remembered I ordered the fortiflora which arrived today, still didn't tempt Monty but Bailey, Vienna and Teddy followed me everywhere after I opened a sachet. It must smell so good to them
> 
> Just wondering obviously Monty suffers from soft or liquid poo but just curious about the cats that vomit. Is it a case of food returning straight back up or is it later on?
> 
> The food would be so much easier if it were readily available at petshops to try it before ordering huge amounts. We can barely get into our utility room for cat food. I was just thinking the other day the cat and dog shelter may take some as they must get poorly cats in that a special diet would help. I might ring them tomorrow and ask if they are willing to take open bags, still got a bag of rice crispies  its only had about 100g out of it and I never want to repeat the result we had from that food experiment
> 
> Hope everyone having a stress free time with trouble free cats tonight


I think you need to go back to your vets or preferably the referral vets and ask them to look at the med doseage as its not working for monty so it's whether they change the drugs or increase the does or frequency. Are you syringe feeding a/d? Whilst not an ideal food for ibd sufferers, it is highly calorific and aids recovery in animals.

I may have missed before but how hold is monty?


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> new sexy version


Wow buffie.  

I've got some boots and spurs to go with that.:lol::lol::lol:

It looks like my size.


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Ok this is my last attempt at posting tonight, I've lost about five attempts so far! Can't quote either!
> 
> Monty still completely refusing food, so its still force feeding, we've tried turkey breast today still warm then liquidised and syringed. He does a good impression of a baby spitting their food at you. it would be funny if it wasn't so worrying. His weight has dropped again!
> 
> Re anyone coming in to look after him while we are at work there is nobody, the closest anyone is that we could trust is 2 hours away. I did wonder about the vets but the problem there is when he was there last time and still had an appetite he stopped eating for days after being there so think upsetting him could make things worse still. On Monday my husband is going to leave at 8.30
> so he will get fed a couple of times before we leave. I'm working close enough to be able to come home for ten minutes at lunchtime so will pop in and feed him at about 1.30 then should be home by 5. On Monday I will find out where i'm working Tuesday so if I'm local enough to get home will do the same again if I'm not local then we will have to cross that bridge on Monday when I find out. Work would not be understanding of the situation at all, so it's pointless asking for help there. I'm off from Wednesday until the following Monday so just got to get through two days.
> 
> Oh just remembered I ordered the fortiflora which arrived today, still didn't tempt Monty but Bailey, Vienna and Teddy followed me everywhere after I opened a sachet. It must smell so good to them
> 
> Just wondering obviously Monty suffers from soft or liquid poo but just curious about the cats that vomit. Is it a case of food returning straight back up or is it later on?
> 
> The food would be so much easier if it were readily available at petshops to try it before ordering huge amounts. We can barely get into our utility room for cat food. I was just thinking the other day the cat and dog shelter may take some as they must get poorly cats in that a special diet would help. I might ring them tomorrow and ask if they are willing to take open bags, still got a bag of rice crispies  its only had about 100g out of it and I never want to repeat the result we had from that food experiment
> 
> Hope everyone having a stress free time with trouble free cats tonight


Oh dear Vienna. I'm so sorry to hear that Monty is now spitting the syringed food out.  It sounds as though you are doing everything humanly possible for him. I had that with Eric and know how distressing it is.

Its good that you only have to miss feeding times on Monday and Tuesday and that you will be able to get home at lunch time. I can understand you not wanting to go down the " day care " at the vets line in view of Monty's history. 

I am sure that your local Cats Protection would be only too happy to take any unwanted food from you. Dylan has supplied my local branch several times . I sometimes joke that he must have been " planted " with me for the purpose of feeding the rest of the cats. He was adopted from them and vomited from day 1 although they were unaware that he had a problem. I undertook to take him before they collected him from the person who found him. The CP cats here have adjusted well to premium german cat food.

I would be happy to buy a few of the Rice Crispies from you .

Regarding the vomiting I can only speak for my experience with Dylan. His vomiting usually comes about 15 minutes after eating, always within about 35. I used to be able to re feed 15 minutes after a return without the second helping coming back but that doesn't always work of late.

Sending more positive vibes for Monty and Hugs for you.


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all 

Roman has had a blip  he had a poo this morning that was quite soft and a runny one earlier this evening. He's not eaten much all day, he's been very quiet and I've noticed he's been hunched over a few times.

I think he's got skinnier, this could have something to do with the worms, I don't know  OH also commented that he looks and feels thinner, and he doesn't usually comment much, just mumbles 

I would have said it's just me being paranoid and being the worry wort I am, but with the OH also mentioning it. I feel there's something not quite right, so to be on the safe side and for peace of mind I'm going to make an appointment for us to see our vet Peter, I will give them a call in the morning. 

I hope all masters, mistresses and slave are all ok xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> Roman has had a blip  he had a poo this morning that was quite soft and a runny one earlier this evening. He's not eaten much all day, he's been very quiet and I've noticed he's been hunched over a few times.
> 
> I think he's got skinnier, this could have something to do with the worms, I don't know  OH also commented that he looks and feels thinner, and he doesn't usually comment much, just mumbles
> 
> I would have said it's just me being paranoid and being the worry wort I am, but with the OH also mentioning it. I feel there's something not quite right, so to be on the safe side and for peace of mind I'm going to make an appointment for us to see our vet Peter, I will give them a call in the morning.
> 
> I hope all masters, mistresses and slave are all ok xx


So sorry to read that Roman has had a "blip"  sadly they seem to be part and parcel of IBD. Everything is going along fine and along it comes knocking the feet from under us  
Fingers and paws crossed it is nothing to worry about ,let us know what the vet has to say.


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> Roman has had a blip  he had a poo this morning that was quite soft and a runny one earlier this evening. He's not eaten much all day, he's been very quiet and I've noticed he's been hunched over a few times.
> 
> I think he's got skinnier, this could have something to do with the worms, I don't know  OH also commented that he looks and feels thinner, and he doesn't usually comment much, just mumbles
> 
> I would have said it's just me being paranoid and being the worry wort I am, but with the OH also mentioning it. I feel there's something not quite right, so to be on the safe side and for peace of mind I'm going to make an appointment for us to see our vet Peter, I will give them a call in the morning.
> 
> I hope all masters, mistresses and slave are all ok xx


I wonder if he has been into something he shouldn't!! Hopefully a short blip

With the looking thinner..I have got this wrong with riley on many occasions, I thought he looked fat he lost weight, I thought he looked thin he put on. It's good to put your kind at ease and get him weighed.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Wow buffie.
> 
> I've got some boots and spurs to go with that.:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> It looks like my size.


Piccies please :scared: :lol: :lol:


----------



## bluecordelia

Monty you are a tinker. Blue had the paste first then probiotic sachets. I didn't weigh her although i do have baby scales as I didn't want to stress myself anymore. I tried all commercial pet foods and resorted to feeding what she would tolerate as it was literally running out of her. Any food was warmed with boiled water. Blue wouldn't touch Fellini first try. Turkey thigh lightly boiled was ok for us. It had less fat than chicken. Some days she would eat and then turn her nose up at the same. 
I have a local fishmonger who can get me pigeon and exotics i.e. kangaroo. Most raw feeders give the meat a bit of heat to kill off germs. This is an issue with chicken. I worried blue would be worse on mainly raw but it seemed to change her life. She is a funny one...not sure if this is a mc thing but doesn't like fussing. She comes to you in her own terms. I also started letting her outside and she had access to a large high runway. 

I hope Monty peps up and the probiotics put some good stuff back in. X


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> So sorry to read that Roman has had a "blip"  sadly they seem to be part and parcel of IBD. Everything is going along fine and along it comes knocking the feet from under us
> Fingers and paws crossed it is nothing to worry about ,let us know what the vet has to say.


And slapping us in the face! 

Might need that sexy jacket after Sylv has finished with it  

Thanks Buffie, I'll keep you all updated.



nicolaa123 said:


> I wonder if he has been into something he shouldn't!! Hopefully a short blip
> 
> With the looking thinner..I have got this wrong with riley on many occasions, I thought he looked fat he lost weight, I thought he looked thin he put on. It's good to put your kind at ease and get him weighed.


I've been extra careful when taking the liner out the bin since the Christmas morning episode, he's not been out and no way of getting Frank and Seb's food. So hopefully a short blip.

He was weighed on 17 Dec when he had his bloods and he'd lost weight, tried to weigh him on the baby scales again today but he walks straight off  he keeps dead still on the vet ones 

Think I will feel better to get him checked over and weighed at the vets.


----------



## Vienna1

Hi everyone, still can't quote!

Monty is still refusing to eat of his own accord but we've managed to get 40g of rc sensitive into him over the course of the day. He normally likes this food so we thought he may tolerate it. Scared to say this in case I jinx him but he looks brighter in himself. He drank some spring water off the tuna earlier but refused the tuna itself. He's drinking fine and seems to go straight to the fountain after being fed. He's spent the day moving from one bed to another! This evening he was in the living room and I came downstairs and went to let the little ones outside for some fresh air. About five minutes later my husband said where's Monty as he couldn't find him! I looked out of the door and there he was sat in the run on the bench looking out into the garden. He normally loves to sit out there watching whatever it is they see that we don't! but since he's been unwell he's had no interest really so it was lovely to see him want to go out for five minutes. 
Tomorrow is going to be awful having to leave him I'm just dreading it. 

Sorry to see Roman has had a blip, hopefully a small one and he'll be feeling better by now. This condition really is a nightmare of ups and downs.

Sylv if the 'rice crispies' are of any use to you you are more than welcome to them, just let me know. 

Thank you everyone for your thoughts for Monty we really do appreciate it. Hope tomorrow brings a good day for everyone cats and humans.


----------



## Vienna1

Sarah just wondering will he sit in a bowl to be weighed? We started weighing the kittens in big plastic bowls but now everyone gets weighed in them. Its funny if they are out the little ones jump straight in them now even when not getting weighed they just like to snooze in them now. Even together when they don't fit!


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone, still can't quote!
> 
> Monty is still refusing to eat of his own accord but we've managed to get 40g of rc sensitive into him over the course of the day. He normally likes this food so we thought he may tolerate it. Scared to say this in case I jinx him but he looks brighter in himself. He drank some spring water off the tuna earlier but refused the tuna itself. He's drinking fine and seems to go straight to the fountain after being fed. He's spent the day moving from one bed to another! This evening he was in the living room and I came downstairs and went to let the little ones outside for some fresh air. About five minutes later my husband said where's Monty as he couldn't find him! I looked out of the door and there he was sat in the run on the bench looking out into the garden. He normally loves to sit out there watching whatever it is they see that we don't! but since he's been unwell he's had no interest really so it was lovely to see him want to go out for five minutes.
> Tomorrow is going to be awful having to leave him I'm just dreading it.
> 
> Sorry to see Roman has had a blip, hopefully a small one and he'll be feeling better by now. This condition really is a nightmare of ups and downs.
> 
> Sylv if the 'rice crispies' are of any use to you you are more than welcome to them, just let me know.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your thoughts for Monty we really do appreciate it. Hope tomorrow brings a good day for everyone cats and humans.


I'm sorry to hear Monty is still refusing food  but pleased you got a little bit down him and he's drank some tuna spring water 

It sounds like he was feeling a little bit better to want to go out in the run.

I really hope today and tomorrow goes well with you being at work, they really do know how to worry us. Still got everything crossed for him and topping up the positive vibes xx



Vienna1 said:


> Sarah just wondering will he sit in a bowl to be weighed? We started weighing the kittens in big plastic bowls but now everyone gets weighed in them. Its funny if they are out the little ones jump straight in them now even when not getting weighed they just like to snooze in them now. Even together when they don't fit!


Didn't think about a bowl or even a box, thanks for the tip . I will try a bowl or I've got a shoe box he squeezes himself into and has a sleep.

Roman was a bit more livelier this morning though he did want extra cuddles, think he knew I was going back to work 

He'd not had a poo by the time I left at 6:20, spoke to OH and he hadn't had one before he left at 7. Hopefully I go home to a nice firm one!

We've got an appointment Wednesday at 5:30 for a checkup.

Hope everyone is doing ok today xx


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Piccies please :scared: :lol: :lol:


I'm sure that you don't really want a pic of my boots and spurs. I've got a lunge whip I could throw in to add to the ensemble though.  :lol:


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Sarah just wondering will he sit in a bowl to be weighed? We started weighing the kittens in big plastic bowls but now everyone gets weighed in them. Its funny if they are out the little ones jump straight in them now even when not getting weighed they just like to snooze in them now. Even together when they don't fit!


Boy, would I love a bowl like that ( complete with contents )


----------



## Forester

Oh No ! I'm sorry to hear that Roman had had a blip and that Monty is still not eating of his own accord. Things just have to get better for everyone. 

It does sound as though Monty is feeling better in himself. Perhaps the break in " feedings " today might relax him a little and encourage him to eat of his own accord. I do hope so.

Sarah, I have my fingers crossed that Roman's blip will be short lived and that the vet check on Wednesday will provide you with reassurance. I will be thinking of you.

The roller coaster gets faster with hardly any gap between the ups and downs. I saw some Hi Life Natures Essentials Tuna Selection this afternoon and thought no chicken, no offal, lets try. Dylan hasn't eaten well the last couple of days and has not had a poo so I'm desperately trying to get more moisture into him. I added half a teaspoonful of the Hi Life to his rabbit as well as some water and he absolutely scoffed it down. 5 minutes later it returned even quicker than he ate it. . His coat is losing its shine and silkiness since going onto just rabbit so I need to get him onto a complete diet soon.

Nicola, I've been thinking again about the chicken issue. The more I think about it the more I think that he does have a problem with chicken and not just offal. He's reacted to Ropocat chicken, Kattovit hypoallergenic chicken and plain home cooked chicken without any offal.

Hoping desperately that all IBDers are about to improve.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm sure that you don't really want a pic of my boots and spurs. I've got a lunge whip I could throw in to add to the ensemble though.  :lol:


Now we've got to see pics :lol: :lol: :lol:



Forester said:


> Oh No ! I'm sorry to hear that Roman had had a blip and that Monty is still not eating of his own accord. Things just have to get better for everyone.
> 
> It does sound as though Monty is feeling better in himself. Perhaps the break in " feedings " today might relax him a little and encourage him to eat of his own accord. I do hope so.
> 
> Sarah, I have my fingers crossed that Roman's blip will be short lived and that the vet check on Wednesday will provide you with reassurance. I will be thinking of you.
> 
> The roller coaster gets faster with hardly any gap between the ups and downs. I saw some Hi Life Natures Essentials Tuna Selection this afternoon and thought no chicken, no offal, lets try. Dylan hasn't eaten well the last couple of days and has not had a poo so I'm desperately trying to get more moisture into him. I added half a teaspoonful of the Hi Life to his rabbit as well as some water and he absolutely scoffed it down. 5 minutes later it returned even quicker than he ate it. . His coat is losing its shine and silkiness since going onto just rabbit so I need to get him onto a complete diet soon.
> 
> Nicola, I've been thinking again about the chicken issue. The more I think about it the more I think that he does have a problem with chicken and not just offal. He's reacted to Ropocat chicken, Kattovit hypoallergenic chicken and plain home cooked chicken without any offal.
> 
> Hoping desperately that all IBDers are about to improve.
> 
> love to all


Thanks Sylv  xx

I came home to a clean litter tray and then I held my breath and crossed my fingers when he went to use it, he had a firm poo!  so I'm hoping the blip was short lived. I will feel better when he's had his check up.

I bet Dyl did scoff it down, Frank and Seb love it, I'm sorry it didn't agree with him  but another one to cross off your list. I really do hope you can find something that agrees with him. Did you order the Miamor from ZooPlus? Or was that chicken based too? Can't remember, sorry.

I've read a few things where cats have an intolerance to chicken, and also beef. When Roman first started with his dire rear my vet said to feed boiled white fish instead of chicken because of this reason.

Hope everyone is doing ok and Monty has had a good day xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Now we've got to see pics :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Thanks Sylv  xx
> 
> I came home to a clean litter tray and then I held my breath and crossed my fingers when he went to use it, he had a firm poo!  so I'm hoping the blip was short lived. I will feel better when he's had his check up.
> 
> I bet Dyl did scoff it down, Frank and Seb love it, I'm sorry it didn't agree with him  but another one to cross off your list. I really do hope you can find something that agrees with him. Did you order the Miamor from ZooPlus? Or was that chicken based too? Can't remember, sorry.
> 
> I've read a few things where cats have an intolerance to chicken, and also beef. When Roman first started with his dire rear my vet said to feed boiled white fish instead of chicken because of this reason.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing ok and Monty has had a good day xx


Sorry, I still haven't found out how to multi-quote from the same post.

I need to find someone who sells the suits online before you can have your pics so don't hold your breath. :lol:

I'm really pleased that Roman has presented you with a firm poo. Hopefully your vet visit on Wednesday will provide you with some reassurance.

I was told to feed boiled fish , amongst other things, after Dylan had his endoscopy but he flatly refused to touch my offerings. He was willing to eat fish from the f and c shop though . I let him have it several times till he vomited what looked like pure fat.

I haven't ordered the Miamor mild meals which Nicola pointed out . I'm going to try the Macs Sensitive Lamb first ( when I can pluck up courage ) as I have that already. I will probably order one pack of MMM along with some other items - Miamor Sensitive and a couple of others at some stage if the MSL doesn't work out.

After being so confident that I'd " cracked it " - having to avoid chicken ( poss turkey ) and offal we've had a couple of other bad days. One day he returned a large hairball with his meal and the reaction to the Felini was frightening. I yearn to be able to open a can or a pouch to be able to feed him just once in a while.

Topping up those vibes for Monty.

bluecordelia, If you see this I'm wondering whether you started Blue with raw whilst she was showing any symptoms and how you went about it. ( I didn't realise you were feeding her raw ). If you've tried it I'm thinking of it .


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Oh No ! I'm sorry to hear that Roman had had a blip and that Monty is still not eating of his own accord. Things just have to get better for everyone.
> 
> It does sound as though Monty is feeling better in himself. Perhaps the break in " feedings " today might relax him a little and encourage him to eat of his own accord. I do hope so.
> 
> Sarah, I have my fingers crossed that Roman's blip will be short lived and that the vet check on Wednesday will provide you with reassurance. I will be thinking of you.
> 
> The roller coaster gets faster with hardly any gap between the ups and downs. I saw some Hi Life Natures Essentials Tuna Selection this afternoon and thought no chicken, no offal, lets try. Dylan hasn't eaten well the last couple of days and has not had a poo so I'm desperately trying to get more moisture into him. I added half a teaspoonful of the Hi Life to his rabbit as well as some water and he absolutely scoffed it down. 5 minutes later it returned even quicker than he ate it. . His coat is losing its shine and silkiness since going onto just rabbit so I need to get him onto a complete diet soon.
> 
> Nicola, I've been thinking again about the chicken issue. The more I think about it the more I think that he does have a problem with chicken and not just offal. He's reacted to Ropocat chicken, Kattovit hypoallergenic chicken and plain home cooked chicken without any offal.
> 
> Hoping desperately that all IBDers are about to improve.
> 
> love to all


You need to find a food that not only has he not eaten but also does not contain offal... No pressure there then! How about getting some nice from pets at home and trying one then, be worth a try.. Other than that all I can suggest is re looking at medication to support him.

I keep searching for food for you..


----------



## Vienna1

Hi everyone, 
We decided Monty needed to go back to the vets, we were lucky his specialist had a cancellation at 6.30 this evening so got home from work fed him and off we went. The news is not good he is being admitted tomorrow morning to have a feeding tube fitted. He felt is was urgent and couldn't even wait until Wednesday when I could take him. To say we are reeling from shock is an understatement, terrified is not the word for it, our poor boy. I keep looking at him thinking he's only a baby really he's only four. I suppose I should be happy that he also said his tummy feels good the thickening that was so apparent before seems to have reduced so much he can't feel it now. He said its very common in cats they just give up on eating and once they stop they find it difficult to start on their own. 

Don't know how I'm going to get through tomorrow.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> You need to find a food that not only has he not eaten but also does not contain offal... No pressure there then! How about getting some nice from pets at home and trying one then, be worth a try.. Other than that all I can suggest is re looking at medication to support him.
> 
> I keep searching for food for you..


Thanks, Nicola 

If I don't try messing with things e g adding Felini, he's better with the rabbit than he was with steroids + RCSC + rabbit. I'd never fed venison, or kangaroo, or tuna but he's been bad with all of them although admittedly the venison and kangaroo both contained a lot of offal. Perhaps TC Feline would be a , for him, tolerable way of making the rabbit complete . The trouble is , at 27 Euros for product plus carriage its another expensive mistake if it causes an immediate reaction.If I was reasonably confident that he'd be o k with it I wouldn't bat an eyelid but I'm not at all confident. I'm ashamed to say I'm considering trying a Hills, or similar, diet. 
I don't have an accessible [email protected] but do have a local reptile shop. I'll try the Macs lamb first. You never know , it just *might *be the answer.

Why did I have to be born a pisces , keep changing my mind?


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone,
> We decided Monty needed to go back to the vets, we were lucky his specialist had a cancellation at 6.30 this evening so got home from work fed him and off we went. The news is not good he is being admitted tomorrow morning to have a feeding tube fitted. He felt is was urgent and couldn't even wait until Wednesday when I could take him. To say we are reeling from shock is an understatement, terrified is not the word for it, our poor boy. I keep looking at him thinking he's only a baby really he's only four. I suppose I should be happy that he also said his tummy feels good the thickening that was so apparent before seems to have reduced so much he can't feel it now. He said its very common in cats they just give up on eating and once they stop they find it difficult to start on their own.
> 
> Don't know how I'm going to get through tomorrow.


Oh Vienna, I'm so so sorry to hear this. Your vets will take good care of Monty and perhaps its what he needs to get him eating again. Its good that the thickening seems to have reduced.

Sending massive ((( Hugs )))


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> Oh Vienna, I'm so so sorry to hear this. Your vets will take good care of Monty and perhaps its what he needs to get him eating again. Its good that the thickening seems to have reduced.
> 
> Sending massive ((( Hugs )))


Thank you Sylv, just wish it was this time tomorrow and it was over and he'll hopefully be home.


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Thank you Sylv, just wish it was this time tomorrow and it was over and he'll hopefully be home.


Hopefully it will get him feeling better and eating of his own accord sooner than if it had been left longer.

Thank goodness you are at home for a few days from Wednesday.

Sending my entire supply of positive vibes.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone,
> We decided Monty needed to go back to the vets, we were lucky his specialist had a cancellation at 6.30 this evening so got home from work fed him and off we went. The news is not good he is being admitted tomorrow morning to have a feeding tube fitted. He felt is was urgent and couldn't even wait until Wednesday when I could take him. To say we are reeling from shock is an understatement, terrified is not the word for it, our poor boy. I keep looking at him thinking he's only a baby really he's only four. I suppose I should be happy that he also said his tummy feels good the thickening that was so apparent before seems to have reduced so much he can't feel it now. He said its very common in cats they just give up on eating and once they stop they find it difficult to start on their own.
> 
> Don't know how I'm going to get through tomorrow.


I'm so sorry to hear that Monty is being admitted tomorrow  but I feel it's the best thing for him to get him well again and hopefully he'll start eating again on his own.

It's good to hear the thickening has reduced.

Sending bucket loads of positive vibes and love and hugs to you both xxx

Please let us know how he is tomorrow.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks, Nicola
> 
> If I don't try messing with things e g adding Felini, he's better with the rabbit than he was with steroids + RCSC + rabbit. I'd never fed venison, or kangaroo, or tuna but he's been bad with all of them although admittedly the venison and kangaroo both contained a lot of offal. Perhaps TC Feline would be a , for him, tolerable way of making the rabbit complete . The trouble is , at 27 Euros for product plus carriage its another expensive mistake if it causes an immediate reaction.If I was reasonably confident that he'd be o k with it I wouldn't bat an eyelid but I'm not at all confident. I'm ashamed to say I'm considering trying a Hills, or similar, diet.
> I don't have an accessible [email protected] but do have a local reptile shop. I'll try the Macs lamb first. You never know , it just *might *be the answer.
> 
> Why did I have to be born a pisces , keep changing my mind?


My mum is a Pisces 

Don't be ashamed, if the Hill's of similar helps Dyl and it's complete then it's a good thing 

xx


----------



## buffie

So very sorry to read that Monty is having to be admitted tomorrow  Hopefully it is all that he will need to kick start his appetite again.
Lots of positive,healing vibes on their way for Monty,hope he is feeling better soon and back home again x


----------



## sarahecp

Thinking of you and Monty xxx


----------



## nicolaa123

Positive vibes being sent for monty, hopefully a quick spell in the vets will get him eating again.


----------



## Forester

I'm finding it hard to think of anything else whilst waiting for news of Monty .

I have however found 2 wet novel protein foods which I could try for Dylan. One Quail , and 1 horse said that very quietly as that would be my absolutely last resort.

It looks as though we could be off to the vets tomorrow as Dylan is constipated. I've offered him sardines in olive oil this evening in an effort to get things moving. He's licked a little of the oil. He's been given till tomorrow lunch time to produce the goods or we're off to see Aunty Kate again.

Sending vibes through the ether for Vienna and Monty.

Hoping that everyone else is o k.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm finding it hard to think of anything else whilst waiting for news of Monty .
> 
> I have however found 2 wet novel protein foods which I could try for Dylan. One Quail , and 1 horse said that very quietly as that would be my absolutely last resort.
> 
> It looks as though we could be off to the vets tomorrow as Dylan is constipated. I've offered him sardines in olive oil this evening in an effort to get things moving. He's licked a little of the oil. He's been given till tomorrow lunch time to produce the goods or we're off to see Aunty Kate again.
> 
> Sending vibes through the ether for Vienna and Monty.
> 
> Hoping that everyone else is o k.
> 
> love to all


I feel the same, Monty has been on my mind all day.

Good news you have found some foods, where are they from. I know you've said before not wanting to try the H word and understand why, but if it helps then that would be great.

Fingers crossed that Dyl doesn't need to visit Aunty Kate, and he produces a poo soon.

All is ok here  Roman has been extra lively this morning and since I got in from work, he's now squashed himself into a shoe box and gone to sleep 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok.

Really hope Monty is ok xx

xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Hugs for everyone. We all know and feel it. X


----------



## nicolaa123

Hopefully no news is good news..


----------



## lazydays

Monty is at home with his tube. I'm sure Denise will update you all more later, maybe she's getting cuddles with her boy or getting some rest as she will be up through the night with him. 
Xxxxx


----------



## buffie

lazydays said:


> Monty is at home with his tube. I'm sure Denise will update you all more later, maybe she's getting cuddles with her boy or getting some rest as she will be up through the night with him.
> Xxxxx


Thanks for the update,more healing vibes on their way .


----------



## bluecordelia

Forester said:


> Sorry, I still haven't found out how to multi-quote from the same post.
> 
> I need to find someone who sells the suits online before you can have your pics so don't hold your breath. :lol:
> 
> I'm really pleased that Roman has presented you with a firm poo. Hopefully your vet visit on Wednesday will provide you with some reassurance.
> 
> I was told to feed boiled fish , amongst other things, after Dylan had his endoscopy but he flatly refused to touch my offerings. He was willing to eat fish from the f and c shop though . I let him have it several times till he vomited what looked like pure fat.
> 
> I haven't ordered the Miamor mild meals which Nicola pointed out . I'm going to try the Macs Sensitive Lamb first ( when I can pluck up courage ) as I have that already. I will probably order one pack of MMM along with some other items - Miamor Sensitive and a couple of others at some stage if the MSL doesn't work out.
> 
> After being so confident that I'd " cracked it " - having to avoid chicken ( poss turkey ) and offal we've had a couple of other bad days. One day he returned a large hairball with his meal and the reaction to the Felini was frightening. I yearn to be able to open a can or a pouch to be able to feed him just once in a while.
> 
> Topping up those vibes for Monty.
> 
> bluecordelia, If you see this I'm wondering whether you started Blue with raw whilst she was showing any symptoms and how you went about it. ( I didn't realise you were feeding her raw ). If you've tried it I'm thinking of it .


Hi yes i did start blue while she was showing symptoms. She had awful dire rear for about 6-8 weeks. We then had her going where she was standing..thank god for pound shop mop heads. The dire rear was runny loose with no form....like overflow when constipated. Thus lasted from the Christmas real bad do upto July time. She had a great appetite but i knew she was upset by not being in control. I had started to think the unthinkable....she was born may so for most of her life had nasty hot yakky. As a kitten she had never had a well formed stool. I tried all foods and also at one point thought chicken was a culprit along with prawns. Ib changes daily..we have good n bad days with no real trigger. I had got her a new cat friend as during her initial flare up, i lost my beloved Saul and she was mega anxious on her own.

Long ramble conclusion. I decided after reading around raw to give it a real go. No cracking n returning to a dry kibble alternative as per the vet. I bought human grade chicken. She loved raw chunks of breast meat. It took about ten days but we saw less explosions in the corners....stools slowly firmed up and we haven't looked back. I feel her gut is less inflammed and i swear by adding warm water. She had and has a good appetite. Photos of her which i still cant upload remind me how off she was at first. She couldn't jump up on the bed at one point she was so weak...

I hope i don't upset anyone but i went for raw as I felt i had exhausted all options. I had started to question her quality of life. I could see how upset she was and we were barely past her first birthday. Thank god for me having rooms for her use only and a tolerant family.

Hope this helps and doesn't upset ...believe me i wouldn't take any criticism of her from anyone as she was my choice and responsibility and I would have done anything to magic her better.

Just as a side note i now have to hide butter as she has decided its good for her! We do have tuna and some good quality wet food now with no issues.

Blue the butter thief and Susan xxx


----------



## Vienna1

Thank you everyone for all your kind thoughts for our little Monty. Sorry I didn't manage to get in earlier to update you, its been non stop since we collected him. Still don't think he knows where he is or half the time who we are. 

I promise I will update properly tomorrow, his next feed is at 3.30 so just going to grab a cup of coffee before then. Hopefully by tomorrow I may make more sense too!


----------



## sarahecp

lazydays said:


> Monty is at home with his tube. I'm sure Denise will update you all more later, maybe she's getting cuddles with her boy or getting some rest as she will be up through the night with him.
> Xxxxx


Thanks for the update xx



Vienna1 said:


> Thank you everyone for all your kind thoughts for our little Monty. Sorry I didn't manage to get in earlier to update you, its been non stop since we collected him. Still don't think he knows where he is or half the time who we are.
> 
> I promise I will update properly tomorrow, his next feed is at 3.30 so just going to grab a cup of coffee before then. Hopefully by tomorrow I may make more sense too!


Thank you for letting letting us know that Monty is home  I really hope he's ok.

Been thinking of you and Monty. No need to apologise, can imagine what you're going through.

Sending lots more positive vibes and thoughts to you both.

((((Hugs)))) xxx


----------



## buffie

As Sarah says no apology needed you have far more important stuff to deal with in getting poor Monty settled.
Keeping the positive vibes topped up ,hope that he is feeling better this morning.


----------



## Vienna1

Afternoon everyone, can't work out how to multi quote so I'll just ramble on and hope you can make sense out if it all. 

Monty is still very much out of it today, he's confined to a cage at the moment fior his own safety as he's very unsteady on his feet. He has a bed in there and a litter tray, two snuggle safes pads two keep him warm and a water bowl. 
When we first got him back he really looked terrible he didn't seem to recognise us at all, he had diarreah again and had, had three accidents in the vets resulting in them having to bath him so poor boy was wet too. He wet himself twice last night after he got home and had diarreah but luckily we had put a puppy pad under him. Poor boy was peeling like a horse! But considering he'd been on fluids all day its hardly surprising. He's now using his little litter tray and no poo since about 10 last night. 
His tube seems to be getting in his way of getting comfortable which is to be expected I guess. Food wise he's on feeds every four hours round the clock which started last night with reduced amounts going up tonight then onto his full amount tomorrow. This morning though I got zooplus delivery and opened a tin if portia 21 to try the others on. I though I might as well still offer him some but never expected he'd be interested at all. I was amazed when he dragged himself to his feet and licked all the moisture from it, he had a tiny piece of chicken only a strand or two but that's pretty much the only food he's eaten since xmas day without being force fed. 
His bloods all came back completely normal apart from his albumin levels which the vet said was to be expected because of the malnutrition. He's to go back Monday for a check up. Its early days I guess just praying he can come back from this. 

Once again thank you everyone for your well wishes for our sweet boy we really appreciate you all rooting for him. 

Monty is due a feed now so will pop back on after that, with some other things I wanted to say.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> It looks as though we could be off to the vets tomorrow as Dylan is constipated. I've offered him sardines in olive oil this evening in an effort to get things moving. He's licked a little of the oil. He's been given till tomorrow lunch time to produce the goods or we're off to see Aunty Kate again.


Sorry I missed this .How is Dylan has he managed to produce the goods yet,hope he didn't/hasn't had to visit the dreaded vet.



Vienna1 said:


> Afternoon everyone, can't work out how to multi quote so I'll just ramble on and hope you can make sense out if it all.
> 
> Monty is still very much out of it today, he's confined to a cage at the moment fior his own safety as he's very unsteady on his feet. He has a bed in there and a litter tray, two snuggle safes pads two keep him warm and a water bowl.
> When we first got him back he really looked terrible he didn't seem to recognise us at all, he had diarreah again and had, had three accidents in the vets resulting in them having to bath him so poor boy was wet too. He wet himself twice last night after he got home and had diarreah but luckily we had put a puppy pad under him. Poor boy was peeling like a horse! But considering he'd been on fluids all day its hardly surprising. He's now using his little litter tray and no poo since about 10 last night.
> His tube seems to be getting in his way of getting comfortable which is to be expected I guess. Food wise he's on feeds every four hours round the clock which started last night with reduced amounts going up tonight then onto his full amount tomorrow. This morning though I got zooplus delivery and opened a tin if portia 21 to try the others on. I though I might as well still offer him some but never expected he'd be interested at all. I was amazed when he dragged himself to his feet and licked all the moisture from it, he had a tiny piece of chicken only a strand or two but that's pretty much the only food he's eaten since xmas day without being force fed.
> His bloods all came back completely normal apart from his albumin levels which the vet said was to be expected because of the malnutrition. He's to go back Monday for a check up. Its early days I guess just praying he can come back from this.
> 
> Once again thank you everyone for your well wishes for our sweet boy we really appreciate you all rooting for him.
> 
> Monty is due a feed now so will pop back on after that, with some other things I wanted to say.


Poor Monty he really has been through the mill  .
Hopefully his little bit of interest in the food offered is a turning point in his recovery,it would be so good if we could speak "cat" just so we could reassure our furbies that we are doing our best to help them.
Hope you are managing to take care of yourself too,it must be mentally and physically exhausting for you.

...........................................

Regarding multi-quotes if you click on the symbol next to the "quote" button at the bottom of each post you want to quote,the one with the double apostrophe symbol(think that's what it is called) then click reply, all the quotes should show up and you can reply in between each one.Hope that all makes sense,I'm rubbish at explaining stuff


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Afternoon everyone, can't work out how to multi quote so I'll just ramble on and hope you can make sense out if it all.
> 
> Monty is still very much out of it today, he's confined to a cage at the moment fior his own safety as he's very unsteady on his feet. He has a bed in there and a litter tray, two snuggle safes pads two keep him warm and a water bowl.
> When we first got him back he really looked terrible he didn't seem to recognise us at all, he had diarreah again and had, had three accidents in the vets resulting in them having to bath him so poor boy was wet too. He wet himself twice last night after he got home and had diarreah but luckily we had put a puppy pad under him. Poor boy was peeling like a horse! But considering he'd been on fluids all day its hardly surprising. He's now using his little litter tray and no poo since about 10 last night.
> His tube seems to be getting in his way of getting comfortable which is to be expected I guess. Food wise he's on feeds every four hours round the clock which started last night with reduced amounts going up tonight then onto his full amount tomorrow. This morning though I got zooplus delivery and opened a tin if portia 21 to try the others on. I though I might as well still offer him some but never expected he'd be interested at all. I was amazed when he dragged himself to his feet and licked all the moisture from it, he had a tiny piece of chicken only a strand or two but that's pretty much the only food he's eaten since xmas day without being force fed.
> His bloods all came back completely normal apart from his albumin levels which the vet said was to be expected because of the malnutrition. He's to go back Monday for a check up. Its early days I guess just praying he can come back from this.
> 
> Once again thank you everyone for your well wishes for our sweet boy we really appreciate you all rooting for him.
> 
> Monty is due a feed now so will pop back on after that, with some other things I wanted to say.


Thank you for the update 

Poor Monty  and poor you  you have been through it 

Good news that his bloods come back clear  and like your vet says it's expectable about the albumin levels, I'm really pleased he's has eaten a tiny bit on his own

I'm really hoping that he's now starting to go forwards, the fluids should help with building him up and fingers crossed he gets his appetite back really soon.

Come on Monty, you can do this 

Sending lots and lots more positive and healing vibes and more ((((hugs)))) for you both xxx


----------



## Vienna1

Back from his feed which he slept through! 

Sarah the parcel arrived this morning thank you so much. 

Is it Roman's check up this evening? Fingers crossed that goes well.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Back from his feed which he slept through!
> 
> Sarah the parcel arrived this morning thank you so much.
> 
> Is it Roman's check up this evening? Fingers crossed that goes well.


Bless him 

You're welcome 

It is, thank you xx


----------



## Vienna1

buffie said:


> Sorry I missed this .How is Dylan has he managed to produce the goods yet,hope he didn't/hasn't had to visit the dreaded vet.
> Poor Monty he really has been through the mill  .
> Hopefully his little bit of interest in the food offered is a turning point in his recovery,it would be so good if we could speak "cat" just so we could reassure our furbies that we are doing our best to help them.
> Hope you are managing to take care of yourself too,it must be mentally and physically exhausting for you.
> 
> ...........................................
> 
> Regarding multi-quotes if you click on the symbol next to the "quote" button at the bottom of each post you want to quote,the one with the double apostrophe symbol(think that's what it is called) then click reply, all the quotes should show up and you can reply in between each one.Hope that all makes sense,I'm rubbish at explaining stuff


Thank you, its simple when explained, I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. 



sarahecp said:


> Thank you for the update
> 
> Poor Monty  and poor you  you have been through it
> 
> Good news that his bloods come back clear  and like your vet says it's expectable about the albumin levels, I'm really pleased he's has eaten a tiny bit on his own
> 
> I'm really hoping that he's now starting to go forwards, the fluids should help with building him up and fingers crossed he gets his appetite back really soon.
> 
> Come on Monty, you can do this
> 
> Sending lots and lots more positive and healing vibes and more ((((hugs)))) for you both xxx


Thank you Sarah, we were both slightly lifted by hearing his bloods looked so normal, and the vet explained the reason for the soggy poo again is his body can't absorb the medication properly because of the malnutrition. As you say fingers crossed now.


----------



## buffie

Sarah ,apologies to you too ,another vet visit I missed  I really need to pay more attention, hope it all goes well.x


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Sarah ,apologies to you too ,another vet visit I missed  I really need to pay more attention, hope it all goes well.x


No need to apologise 

Thank you xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Come on Monty we are all sending good vibes n crossing fingers, legs etc. 
Roman also lots of good vibes xxx


----------



## Forester

Wow, I've blinked and missed it all.

I started a post at about 2pm but had to abandon it as the plumber arrived (again ). I was going to wish Sarah good luck for this evening amongst other things . I don't doubt that I'm too late now, sorry.

Vienna, Its fantastic news that Monty is home and that his bloods are normal. Its also great that he was interested in the Porta 21. It certainly sounds as though that tube is doing its job. Fingers crossed that he soon won't need it any more. Your time off work has turned out to be at a good time , after all. I do hope that you are managing to get some sleep. Sending more positive vibes for Monty and ((( Hugs ))) for you.

bluecordelia., thanks for your very helpful post about how you introduced raw to blue. Can I ask which supplements you use ?

buffie, Dylan didn't produce the goods in time. My plumber rescheduled so we went to the vets this morning. He's had an enema which has worked. We decided to run bloods again to look for anaemia as I've been concerned about the colour of his poo ( black ) but then he is a black cat and there must be lots of blood in the rabbits. Bloods were fine so a high bleed has been ruled out.

Once described by my vet as " a bit of a mystery " , he's now been described as a "nightmare". I've got to get him onto something complete and higher residue fairly quickly as we don't want any repeats of the "bunging up". I 've therefore ordered some Hills d/d venison wet for collection tomorrow. He's had 2 meals of venison ( Ropocat ) previously but I didn't do it gradually and both lots came back. This is going to be introduced very, very slowly. If it doesn't suit, it goes back.

We waited for the bloods to be run this morning and ,whilst waiting, an awful smell wafted around the waiting room. Poor Dyl, his enema had worked whilst he was still in the basket. I did feel sorry for him. By the way, I'm not only now recognised when I go through the surgery door, I got offered coffee this morning. I just wish that I was still anonymous.

love to all


----------



## nicolaa123

Hopefully monty will get stronger and start to eat on his own accord, did you talk to the vet about the drug doseage?

Hope Roman gets a good report at the vets.

Sorry to hear about Dylan, I keep looking for food..it's all overseas tho 

Buffalo has temp been stopped with Riley due to an incident..but it could be down to a certain some one eating something he shouldn't 

Hunger issues seem a little less and I'm still adding extra water to bulk it out.

Hope all other are doing ok ..


----------



## nicolaa123

bluecordelia said:


> Hi yes i did start blue while she was showing symptoms. She had awful dire rear for about 6-8 weeks. We then had her going where she was standing..thank god for pound shop mop heads. The dire rear was runny loose with no form....like overflow when constipated. Thus lasted from the Christmas real bad do upto July time. She had a great appetite but i knew she was upset by not being in control. I had started to think the unthinkable....she was born may so for most of her life had nasty hot yakky. As a kitten she had never had a well formed stool. I tried all foods and also at one point thought chicken was a culprit along with prawns. Ib changes daily..we have good n bad days with no real trigger. I had got her a new cat friend as during her initial flare up, i lost my beloved Saul and she was mega anxious on her own.
> 
> Long ramble conclusion. I decided after reading around raw to give it a real go. No cracking n returning to a dry kibble alternative as per the vet. I bought human grade chicken. She loved raw chunks of breast meat. It took about ten days but we saw less explosions in the corners....stools slowly firmed up and we haven't looked back. I feel her gut is less inflammed and i swear by adding warm water. She had and has a good appetite. Photos of her which i still cant upload remind me how off she was at first. She couldn't jump up on the bed at one point she was so weak...
> 
> I hope i don't upset anyone but i went for raw as I felt i had exhausted all options. I had started to question her quality of life. I could see how upset she was and we were barely past her first birthday. Thank god for me having rooms for her use only and a tolerant family.
> 
> Hope this helps and doesn't upset ...believe me i wouldn't take any criticism of her from anyone as she was my choice and responsibility and I would have done anything to magic her better.
> 
> Just as a side note i now have to hide butter as she has decided its good for her! We do have tuna and some good quality wet food now with no issues.
> 
> Blue the butter thief and Susan xxx


Raw is an ideal food for ibd cats........I woukd love riley to be in raw I coukd get whole host of exotic meats..but he won't touch it..


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Wow, I've blinked and missed it all.
> 
> I started a post at about 2pm but had to abandon it as the plumber arrived (again ). I was going to wish Sarah good luck for this evening amongst other things . I don't doubt that I'm too late now, sorry.
> 
> Vienna, Its fantastic news that Monty is home and that his bloods are normal. Its also great that he was interested in the Porta 21. It certainly sounds as though that tube is doing its job. Fingers crossed that he soon won't need it any more. Your time off work has turned out to be at a good time , after all. I do hope that you are managing to get some sleep. Sending more positive vibes for Monty and ((( Hugs ))) for you.
> 
> bluecordelia., thanks for your very helpful post about how you introduced raw to blue. Can I ask which supplements you use ?
> 
> buffie, Dylan didn't produce the goods in time. My plumber rescheduled so we went to the vets this morning. He's had an enema which has worked. We decided to run bloods again to look for anaemia as I've been concerned about the colour of his poo ( black ) but then he is a black cat and there must be lots of blood in the rabbits. Bloods were fine so a high bleed has been ruled out.
> 
> Once described by my vet as " a bit of a mystery " , he's now been described as a "nightmare". I've got to get him onto something complete and higher residue fairly quickly as we don't want any repeats of the "bunging up". I 've therefore ordered some Hills d/d venison wet for collection tomorrow. He's had 2 meals of venison ( Ropocat ) previously but I didn't do it gradually and both lots came back. This is going to be introduced very, very slowly. If it doesn't suit, it goes back.
> 
> We waited for the bloods to be run this morning and ,whilst waiting, an awful smell wafted around the waiting room. Poor Dyl, his enema had worked whilst he was still in the basket. I did feel sorry for him. By the way, I'm not only now recognised when I go through the surgery door, I got offered coffee this morning. I just wish that I was still anonymous.
> 
> love to all


Riley liked the d/d wet and was ok on it for a while.

I've just been thinking and I know you prefer to cook the rabbit due to bacteria issues, but I have read so much about raw being great for ibd cats, is it worth trying a different pre mix..is it called tc mix  to raw rabbit to see if the raw is tolerated with a different pre mix, especially as you know rabbit is a safe food.


----------



## nicolaa123

Some pre mixes..wish I knew more about raw, but as riley won't take to it I discounted it in the knowledge stakes 

http://tcfeline.com/tcpremix-europe/

Amazon.com : TCfeline RAW Cat Food Supplement / Premix for a Homemade, All Natural, Grain Free, Holistic Diet - Original Version with No Liver (Trial 4.2 oz) : Pet Supplies


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Hopefully monty will get stronger and start to eat on his own accord, did you talk to the vet about the drug doseage?
> 
> Hope Roman gets a good report at the vets.
> 
> Sorry to hear about Dylan, I keep looking for food..it's all overseas tho
> 
> Buffalo has temp been stopped with Riley due to an incident..but it could be down to a certain some one eating something he shouldn't
> 
> Hunger issues seem a little less and I'm still adding extra water to bulk it out.
> 
> Hope all other are doing ok ..


Thanks for the help with my food search , it is greatly appreciated. I've found another brand Trovet originally from New Zealand which have several which look promising. They can be bought from Zoofast. I've got a few in reserve to try now so I'm hoping that one of those might be successful without need for further search.
Now that I know that bc transitioned to raw whilst blue had symptoms I'm thinking more of trying that however how do I make it complete if offal makes him vomit and Felini has the same effect.?

I'm sorry to hear that Bill has had to be removed from the menu. Has Riley been pinching food that he shouldn't? Its a nightmare when they are desperate to get to anything which they think that they might be able to eat. OH and I often have to " stand guard " over food in case Dyl gets to it. I hope that Riley's tummy soon recovers from the effects of whatever has upset him.
Perhaps the buffalo is more satisfying than the skippy.

Why are they always so desperate to eat something which doesn't agree. It was a real pleasure to see Dylan scoff the rabbit which had the small amount of Hi Life added. I was devastated to see it return and so quickly, and he only had 1/2 a teaspoonful.

OH was a bit put out earlier today. I served him Dylan's leftovers. :lol:I gave him the rest of the tin of sardines which Dylan didn't like.

Sending positive vibes to all.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Some pre mixes..wish I knew more about raw, but as riley won't take to it I discounted it in the knowledge stakes
> 
> http://tcfeline.com/tcpremix-europe/
> 
> Amazon.com : TCfeline RAW Cat Food Supplement / Premix for a Homemade, All Natural, Grain Free, Holistic Diet - Original Version with No Liver (Trial 4.2 oz) : Pet Supplies


Thanks , Nicola . That's the premix which I mentioned in an earlier post. They do several versions. 2 include dried liver ( 1 beef and 1 chicken ) and one wants you to add your own liver. 1 has added psyllium which might be a good idea in view of Dyl's recent performance.

You can use it to add to either raw or cooked and I have considered it as an addition to the cooked rabbit. It can be bought in Europe from a german store however they charge 15 Euros carriage on 120g of product. I have thought about starting a thread to enquire whether anyone wanted to order and share carriage. I wouldn't hesitate to order if I were reasonably confident that he'd be o k with it . I don't think that I could cope with another reaction like the Felini one just yet. Sorry if TMI but it wasn't ordinary vomiting. It was projectile and Dylan was obviously in some distress.

Its on my list of "possibles" which is much longer that I thought that it originally would be.


----------



## sarahecp

I can't quote again  and my auto correct keeps telling me I can't spell 

Hopefully I don't leave anyone or anything out. 

Vets visit went well 

Peter said Roman looks great and the best he's seen him looking since the summer   He had a good check over, he has lost 60g but he isn't concerned so said I shouldn't be  he said he's at that age and still has a lot of growing to do. 

We discussed the worms  he told me that there have been studies in humans with Crohn's disease that it's a good thing for humans get them  apparently cats don't get Crohn's but can be similar thing with IBD  so could be a good thing he had them  not good for my mind though, still creeps me out thinking about them 

We also spoke about his meds and booster/vaccinations, he said he would hope Patricia would start to wean him off the Pred and may also do the same with the chlorambucil but it's her call not his. He would defiantly need to have his first and second vaccinations again once he is off the Pred but to check with Patricia about the vaccs while he's on the chlorambucil. 

I do feel so much better now   


I heard good things about raw and IBD cats too, Roman is like Riley, wouldn't touch it, Frank loves a bit of chunky raw  

Sylv, sorry to hear about Dyl's ordeal  I hope he's ok now. 

Did you get biccies with your coffee?  

Fingers crossed with the food 


Nicola, sorry Riley has had an incident  hopefully the blip will be short lived. 


Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

I'm so glad that Roman had such an excellent report from the vets.. I told you that he was probably being like a gangly teenager.. Perhaps now you can relax and stop worrying. 60g is a lot less than Dyl " produced " this morning 

The information about the worms is creepy. I can still see the expression on the face of the one I found cooking in Dylan's rabbit.:w00t:

Thanks Sarah, Dyl's sleeping peacefully now after spending the afternoon racing around and rolling over for tummy tickles.

I didn't take up the offer of coffee. I just wanted to get Dyl home as quickly as possible. I was imagining how upset he would be at having messed in the basket. His poo doesn't usually smell much but that was horrible.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm so glad that Roman had such an excellent report from the vets.. I told you that he was probably being like a gangly teenager.. Perhaps now you can relax and stop worrying. 60g is a lot less than Dyl " produced " this morning
> 
> The information about the worms is creepy. I can still see the expression on the face of the one I found cooking in Dylan's rabbit.:w00t:
> 
> Thanks Sarah, Dyl's sleeping peacefully now after spending the afternoon racing around and rolling over for tummy tickles.
> 
> I didn't take up the offer of coffee. I just wanted to get Dyl home as quickly as possible. I was imagining how upset he would be at having messed in the basket. His poo doesn't usually smell much but that was horrible.


Glad Dyl was ok after  and hope he's doing ok today.

Seb and Roman were having a loony moment at 2 this morning, got woken up to what sounded like a heard of elephants   when I got up at 4:30 went downstairs to toys everywhere 

Roman is still doing ok 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are ok xx

Hope Riley is doing ok and over his blip and hope Monty is improving xx


----------



## Forester

deleted, posted in haste


----------



## crazycatlady1984

Hi all,

Sadly my wee cat Dougal has been diagnosed with early stage lymphoma. He is only 10 so I am finding it particularly hard to deal with as I feel he should have a good few more years ahead of him and obviously this is now looking unlikely (even typing that breaks my heart).

I am currently looking into chemo (steroid + chlorambusil) however I don't know if I want to put him through that. I know that this treatment is a lot less invasive than other chemo, however it is simply the logistics of it (as well as the side effects). 

Dougal doesn't travel well, so regular visits to the vet for blood tests would not be easy for him, he would get v stressed and upset. Also, we have never given him pills before (ie - putting pills down his throat). He has v rarely had any medicine before but if ever required, we crush it and put it in his food. Obviously crushing is not an option with chlorambucil, so I was wondering if anybody has any experience of sneaking these into food whole (I hear they are v small?) and the cat successfully just eating it themselves? Also, what are the frequency of vet visits for blood tests like? And how long the chemo process take? Is it indefinite?

Finally, I am also interested in alternative remedies, and have read a lot of good stuff about turmeric/curcumin, has anybody got any experience of this?

Lots of love to everybody and their furbabies that are on this thread xxxxx


----------



## Vienna1

Been back to the vets as Monty just seemed to crash this morning, inner eyelids were half way across and he seemed so unwell again. Just couldn't seem to get much response from him at all. At four this morning though he was sat in his cage looking so lovely all bright eyed and much more himself. The difference is unbelievable just couldn't understand what had happened. 

He was examined as an emergency and the only thing that she could find was he seemed dehydrated which is odd as he's being syringe fed including water to flush the tube. We now have to give extra water every two hours until tomorrow when he has to go back to be checked again. And possibly admitted if there's no improvement 

Only after coming home did I realise he also seemed very unwell this time last week you may remember we were close to taking him back on New Year's Day, and had spoken to them on Friday about our worries. It was suggested that it may be him adjusting to the new medication at the time. I'm wondering now is it the Leukeran he had that on Monday evening both last week and this and suddenly seemed unwell on the Thursday. We are seeing his specialist at 10am tomorrow So will see why he says.

Hope everyone else doing well


----------



## Forester

I'm so sorry to hear that Monty is not doing as well as we all hoped that he would. It so distressing for you. You are doing everything possible for him. 

Sending love and more positive vibes. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow at 10 ( as well as the rest of the time ) . Please let us know how Monty gets on.


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that Monty is not doing as well as we all hoped that he would. It so distressing for you. You are doing everything possible for him.
> 
> Sending love and more positive vibes. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow at 10 ( as well as the rest of the time ) . Please let us know how Monty gets on.


Thank you Sylv I will do. He's just sat himself up and looks a bit brighter, I've read that nausea is a side effect and have noticed him swallowing quite a bit too. So hoping it is the medication causing this rather than anything else.

I keep meaning to ask you if you have tried rc digestive comfort? I just remembered today its used for cats that are sick after eating. I've no idea what it contains just one of the cats I know used to be sick with everything else yet she's fine on this.


----------



## sarahecp

I'm so sorry to hear that Monty isn't doing so good   

Topping up the positive and healing vibes for Monty and keeping everything crossed that he starts to improve. 

When Roman first started taking chlorambucil he was on a higher dose of Pred 10mg, he didn't become unwell but more sleepy, that has now worn off. Roman has 2mg of chlorambucil every other day. 

Hope all goes well at the vets tomorrow, will be thinking of you both xx


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that Monty isn't doing so good
> 
> Topping up the positive and healing vibes for Monty and keeping everything crossed that he starts to improve.
> 
> When Roman first started taking chlorambucil he was on a higher dose of Pred 10mg, he didn't become unwell but more sleepy, that has now worn off. Roman has 2mg of chlorambucil every other day.
> 
> Hope all goes well at the vets tomorrow, will be thinking of you both xx


Thank you Sarah, he seems very sleepy he's currently on 10mg of pred daily plus the once a week Chlorambucil. Its seems a coincidence that both weeks he's been unwell on the same days and even more so when I look at the timing. Last week he got the tablet early on Monday morning, he started to show signs of being very sleepy and generally looking not well on Wednesday evening. This week he was given the tablet on Monday evening as we'd had a check up that evening first. He started to be extra sleepy and looking unwell this morning. I'm thinking on top of that there is the fact he's already quite weak to start with and just been through an operation.

Maybe I'm clutching at straws, just seems odd.


----------



## buffie

So sorry to read about poor Monty.
Sending some positive vibes,paws crossed he is feeling better soon andgood luck for your vet visit tomorrow


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Thank you Sarah, he seems very sleepy he's currently on 10mg of pred daily plus the once a week Chlorambucil. Its seems a coincidence that both weeks he's been unwell on the same days and even more so when I look at the timing. Last week he got the tablet early on Monday morning, he started to show signs of being very sleepy and generally looking not well on Wednesday evening. This week he was given the tablet on Monday evening as we'd had a check up that evening first. He started to be extra sleepy and looking unwell this morning. I'm thinking on top of that there is the fact he's already quite weak to start with and just been through an operation.
> 
> Maybe I'm clutching at straws, just seems odd.


It could well be the chlorambucil and also a combination of what he's been and going through. If it is the meds hopefully his systems gets used to them soon xx


----------



## Vienna1

Well all change again here! 

Monty tried to go to the litter tray but only his front legs were in so missed and peed on his bed! Those little trays are no use to a long cat Luckily we've got a matress pad over it so it just needed changed. So got him out gave him a little wash with a warm flannel which he seemed happy with. So new pad,new bed, and a deep litter tray and he went straight into the tray a did a poo! Nicely formed not hard but certainly not wet at all. It did have a sort of reddish outer to it but not like blood we've had before. He then settled down on his cushion ate a spoonful of tuna in jelly without any encouragement. This was followed by lots of head butting of the cage trying to get out. 

I never liked roller coasters and I don't like this one we are on now I'd like to get off now please.


----------



## buffie

Trying not to tempt fate here so everything is crossed  That all sounds more positive,hopefully this is the start of the good things to come,we are all here wishing you the very best Monty xx


----------



## sarahecp

I agree with Buffie  does sound more positive  I'm so glad he's eaten something  again only a little bit and he's happier 

Keeping everything crossed and for today's vet visit xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Keeping all crossed here too and some more positive vibes


----------



## Forester

I've been thinking of Monty all day, hoping that he's improving and wishing him well.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I've been thinking of Monty all day, hoping that he's improving and wishing him well.


Me too, really hoping he's ok xx


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I've been thinking of Monty all day, hoping that he's improving and wishing him well.





sarahecp said:


> Me too, really hoping he's ok xx


and me ............
Hoping that no news is good news,everything crossed for a big improvement in Monty's health.


----------



## lazydays

Monty had a solid poo this evening    Denise can't get on the forum for some reason but I'm sure she'll keep trying and update you properly. 
The vets appointment was changed to this evening and he was pleased with his progress. No sign of dehydration, no more weight loss (no gain either but he was very happy and said hopefully this could be a turning point), the vet agreed that it could be the medication that was making him have these bad turns but said if he starts to gain weight the side effects will lessen and the positives of the medication outweigh the negatives of the side effects. 

Last I heard he had had a tiny bit of chicken and was having an upside down sleep! All sounds very positive


----------



## buffie

lazydays said:


> Monty had a solid poo this evening    Denise can't get on the forum for some reason but I'm sure she'll keep trying and update you properly.
> The vets appointment was changed to this evening and he was pleased with his progress. No sign of dehydration, no more weight loss (no gain either but he was very happy and said hopefully this could be a turning point), the vet agreed that it could be the medication that was making him have these bad turns but said if he starts to gain weight the side effects will lessen and the positives of the medication outweigh the negatives of the side effects.
> 
> Last I heard he had had a tiny bit of chicken and was having an upside down sleep! All sounds very positive


Thank you so much for the update  So pleased to read that Monty looks to be on the road to recovery.Topping up the positive,healing vibes and hope he continues to improve :thumbsup:


----------



## sarahecp

lazydays said:


> Monty had a solid poo this evening    Denise can't get on the forum for some reason but I'm sure she'll keep trying and update you properly.
> The vets appointment was changed to this evening and he was pleased with his progress. No sign of dehydration, no more weight loss (no gain either but he was very happy and said hopefully this could be a turning point), the vet agreed that it could be the medication that was making him have these bad turns but said if he starts to gain weight the side effects will lessen and the positives of the medication outweigh the negatives of the side effects.
> 
> Last I heard he had had a tiny bit of chicken and was having an upside down sleep! All sounds very positive


Thanks for letting us know, please send our love xx

That's really good news   keeping everything crossed and sending lots more positive vibes for Monty and hope he's now going forwards xx


----------



## Forester

lazydays said:


> Monty had a solid poo this evening    Denise can't get on the forum for some reason but I'm sure she'll keep trying and update you properly.
> The vets appointment was changed to this evening and he was pleased with his progress. No sign of dehydration, no more weight loss (no gain either but he was very happy and said hopefully this could be a turning point), the vet agreed that it could be the medication that was making him have these bad turns but said if he starts to gain weight the side effects will lessen and the positives of the medication outweigh the negatives of the side effects.
> 
> Last I heard he had had a tiny bit of chicken and was having an upside down sleep! All sounds very positive


That's fantastic news. Hoping that Monty continues to gain strength so that the meds can help him to feel better.

Those vibes must be working so sending more for Monty and hugs for Den.


----------



## Vienna1

Morning all, sorry about yesterday don't know why I couldn't post everytime I tried it just went blank then dissappeared. Thankfully Sarah realised and posted for me. 

Monty is still not feeling well today poor boy and had a soft poo a little while ago  yesterday he was pretty much as he was on Thursday out if it for most if the day then seemed to pick up at the night time. 

In terms of the vets visit it went really well. He wasn't at all dehydrated he was very happy with how his stomach feels and could actually feel a solid poo in his bowel, which he passed when we got home. He agrees its likely to be the Leukeran making him feel so sleepy and said the timeline is too perfect to ignore, however he also feels the benefits to Monty long term outweigh a few days feeling rough at the minute. In terms of dosage its actually a higher dose than he'd like him on because of his very low body weight but because the tablets can't be split we have no choice, as his weight comes up though it should have less effect. Weight wise he was happy he has stabilised he was about the same as on Tuesday and said it will be a slow process to get him to put some on. The main priority was to stop him dropping any further. 
His wound where the feeding tube goes its quite smelly but he assured me its fine that's normal. All in all it was a good visit we had a good long chat about him and about other issues such as feeding, probiotics, teeth etc. I left thinking we have found a really good very knowledgable vet, I don't want to sound like I'm criticising vets in general but talking to him is completely different to any I've experienced in the past. He's happy to explain it all and doesn't wait to be asked questions. Even on Tuesday when we collected him he met us and talked us through exactly what he'd done then showed us Monty's X-rays with the tube in situ to show us how far it went in and assure us about it falling out. 

Obviously we are still very worried about him and seeing him just lying here in his cage really just wanting to be left alone is awful but it gives us hope that he is pleased with his progress so far. We are back Monday evening for a check up. 

Hope everyone doing well, we've had such an awful week I've not really taken much in. I have been trying to follow the other thread about the poor boy who's been diagnosed with lymphoma but I have to admit I was getting frustrated by the diagnosis from just a scan.


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> That's fantastic news. Hoping that Monty continues to gain strength so that the meds can help him to feel better.
> 
> Those vibes must be working so sending more for Monty and hugs for Den.


Thank you Sylv, we do appreciate that I think I thought I might have a breakdown over the last couple of days. On Thursday when I rushed to the vets as an emergency I really thought that was it. All the messages of support for him have really meant a lot to us and I'm sure if Monty was feeling better he'd be sending you all headbutts :smile5: he's a great one for head butting everything in sight.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Morning all, sorry about yesterday don't know why I couldn't post everytime I tried it just went blank then dissappeared. Thankfully Sarah realised and posted for me.
> 
> Monty is still not feeling well today poor boy and had a soft poo a little while ago  yesterday he was pretty much as he was on Thursday out if it for most if the day then seemed to pick up at the night time.
> 
> In terms of the vets visit it went really well. He wasn't at all dehydrated he was very happy with how his stomach feels and could actually feel a solid poo in his bowel, which he passed when we got home. He agrees its likely to be the Leukeran making him feel so sleepy and said the timeline is too perfect to ignore, however he also feels the benefits to Monty long term outweigh a few days feeling rough at the minute. In terms of dosage its actually a higher dose than he'd like him on because of his very low body weight but because the tablets can't be split we have no choice, as his weight comes up though it should have less effect. Weight wise he was happy he has stabilised he was about the same as on Tuesday and said it will be a slow process to get him to put some on. The main priority was to stop him dropping any further.
> His wound where the feeding tube goes its quite smelly but he assured me its fine that's normal. All in all it was a good visit we had a good long chat about him and about other issues such as feeding, probiotics, teeth etc. I left thinking we have found a really good very knowledgable vet, I don't want to sound like I'm criticising vets in general but talking to him is completely different to any I've experienced in the past. He's happy to explain it all and doesn't wait to be asked questions. Even on Tuesday when we collected him he met us and talked us through exactly what he'd done then showed us Monty's X-rays with the tube in situ to show us how far it went in and assure us about it falling out.
> 
> Obviously we are still very worried about him and seeing him just lying here in his cage really just wanting to be left alone is awful but it gives us hope that he is pleased with his progress so far. We are back Monday evening for a check up.
> 
> Hope everyone doing well, we've had such an awful week I've not really taken much in. I have been trying to follow the other thread about the poor boy who's been diagnosed with lymphoma but I have to admit I was getting frustrated by the diagnosis from just a scan.


Poor Monty  and poor you  it's emotionally and mentally draining  you need to look after yourself too.

I hope his system gets used to the chlorambucil soon and we start to see him improving. I'm pleased your vet was pleased with Monty's progress  sounds like a very good vet  it's nice when you have a vet you have a good relationship with, one that explains, discusses and you can trust, I feel like that with mine 

Hope all goes well for Monty's checkup on Monday.

Sending lots more positive vibes and ((((hugs)))) to you both xx


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Thank you Sylv, we do appreciate that I think I thought I might have a breakdown over the last couple of days. On Thursday when I rushed to the vets as an emergency I really thought that was it. All the messages of support for him have really meant a lot to us and I'm sure if Monty was feeling better he'd be sending you all headbutts :smile5: he's a great one for head butting everything in sight.


Oh Den , I just wish that we could all give you physical hugs and support rather that virtual ones. I cannot begin to imagine what you must be going through. I confess that I've had an awful couple of days with Dyl and keep fighting back my tears but what I'm going through must be nothing to what you are experiencing.

Sending lots of love and yet more positive vibes and hugs.


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> Oh Den , I just wish that we could all give you physical hugs and support rather that virtual ones. I cannot begin to imagine what you must be going through. I confess that I've had an awful couple of days with Dyl and keep fighting back my tears but what I'm going through must be nothing to what you are experiencing.
> 
> Sending lots of love and yet more positive vibes and hugs.


Oh no! What's wrong? Hope Dylan is ok.

I've got to the point of thinking its pointless fighting tears back I'm just trying not to cry in front of him don't want to stress him any further.

I will get the rice crispies sent on Monday sorry I completely forgot. Did you ever try the rc hula hoops for him? I can send you some if you want to try them.


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Poor Monty  and poor you  it's emotionally and mentally draining  you need to look after yourself too.
> 
> I hope his system gets used to the chlorambucil soon and we start to see him improving. I'm pleased your vet was pleased with Monty's progress  sounds like a very good vet  it's nice when you have a vet you have a good relationship with, one that explains, discusses and you can trust, I feel like that with mine
> 
> Hope all goes well for Monty's checkup on Monday.
> 
> Sending lots more positive vibes and ((((hugs)))) to you both xx


Thank you Sarah

I opened the pumpkin this morning as he had a soft poo so thought I'd give it a go, he's not really up to eating yet but I'll try again later he seems to feel better as the day goes on. Everyone got a tiny taste with their breakfast and bailey and Ted ate it before I got the rest of the food added. Typical Birman's


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Oh no! What's wrong? Hope Dylan is ok.
> 
> I've got to the point of thinking its pointless fighting tears back I'm just trying not to cry in front of him don't want to stress him any further.
> 
> I will get the rice crispies sent on Monday sorry I completely forgot. Did you ever try the rc hula hoops for him? I can send you some if you want to try them.


Please don't apologise for forgetting the Rice Crispies. I'd probably have forgotten my name in your position. I cannot begin to imagine how distressing it must be to see Monty so poorly. If you're anything like me you feel so helpless .

I'm so so pleased to hear that Monty seems to be improving. He is top priority. If you get a chance I'd love to try any dry food , rice crispies, hoola hoops or anything but *please *send it *when and only when its convenient.*
I just can't hold the tears back unless I can find a way to completely distract myself. The roller coaster goes from high to low so very quickly. Dylan vomited after the level teaspoonful of Hills d/d venison which I used to make a gravy for his rabbit. He then decided that he wasn't going to eat anything and retreated to a chair in a dark room where he sat hunched up as if he was in pain.

Its been a nightmare to get him to eat since although he did eat overnight last night. Breakfast this morning was returned.I've now realised that the problem isn't chicken and offal. It seems to be anything new which is introduced no matter how gradually. I was so desperate after the Hills d/d episode that I even thawed some minced beef and tried that. No go. He's now reluctant to eat his rabbit and the RC Sensitivity control. Most of the eating he's done since Thursday has been through bribery. I have broken up a few pieces of Thrive salmon ( a free sample ) and hidden these in the wet.

I'd love to try him with any dry which is available if its o k with you. I almost went to my vets this morning to return the d/d wet and to get some z/d dry, or anything else which might help, to try. I didn't go, deciding to wait over the weekend hoping that my thoughts might be clearer by then.

Prior to Christmas,/New Year I had a really good 2 weeks with him and I'm starting to think that it may have been due to the after effects of the Slippery Elm Bark which I gave him for 2 weeks. Sadly I gave that up as he was refusing to eat anything which he could detect the SEB in.

Enough of our woes, Dyl is sleeping beside me at the moment oblivious to the worry he's causing me .

Anyway, the top priority is Monty . Sending love, hugs and topping up those vibes for him again.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Thank you Sarah
> 
> I opened the pumpkin this morning as he had a soft poo so thought I'd give it a go, he's not really up to eating yet but I'll try again later he seems to feel better as the day goes on. Everyone got a tiny taste with their breakfast and bailey and Ted ate it before I got the rest of the food added. Typical Birman's


Hope Monty likes the pumpkin as much as the others  Roman sometimes eats it off the plate before I get a chance to mix it with his food 

I always noticed that Roman perked up and was less sleepy during the day when he first started the chlorambucil, not sure if that had anything to do with the time of day I give it to him, he has it at 6pm and since the Pred has been reduced I give that it the mornings. But he's fine with it now, think he's got used to it.

hope everyone else is doing ok today, Roman has been fine.

xx


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, I'm sorry to hear Dyl has been sick and not eating well  I hope he gets his appetite back and there's no more returns. 

It sounds like it could well have been the SEB (naughty ginger, I'll tell him off  ) I really do think it's worth giving the dry ago, I know our views but if it helps and he eats it it's defiantly worth it. 


Sending lots and lots of positive vibes to our not so good furbabes, lots of hugs and thoughts to their slaves and well wishes for everyone else xx xx


We WILL all get through this together xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Morning all, sorry about yesterday don't know why I couldn't post everytime I tried it just went blank then dissappeared. Thankfully Sarah realised and posted for me.
> 
> Monty is still not feeling well today poor boy and had a soft poo a little while ago  yesterday he was pretty much as he was on Thursday out if it for most if the day then seemed to pick up at the night time.
> 
> In terms of the vets visit it went really well. He wasn't at all dehydrated he was very happy with how his stomach feels and could actually feel a solid poo in his bowel, which he passed when we got home. He agrees its likely to be the Leukeran making him feel so sleepy and said the timeline is too perfect to ignore, however he also feels the benefits to Monty long term outweigh a few days feeling rough at the minute. In terms of dosage its actually a higher dose than he'd like him on because of his very low body weight but because the tablets can't be split we have no choice, as his weight comes up though it should have less effect. Weight wise he was happy he has stabilised he was about the same as on Tuesday and said it will be a slow process to get him to put some on. The main priority was to stop him dropping any further.
> His wound where the feeding tube goes its quite smelly but he assured me its fine that's normal. All in all it was a good visit we had a good long chat about him and about other issues such as feeding, probiotics, teeth etc. I left thinking we have found a really good very knowledgable vet, I don't want to sound like I'm criticising vets in general but talking to him is completely different to any I've experienced in the past. He's happy to explain it all and doesn't wait to be asked questions. Even on Tuesday when we collected him he met us and talked us through exactly what he'd done then showed us Monty's X-rays with the tube in situ to show us how far it went in and assure us about it falling out.
> 
> Obviously we are still very worried about him and seeing him just lying here in his cage really just wanting to be left alone is awful but it gives us hope that he is pleased with his progress so far. We are back Monday evening for a check up.
> 
> Hope everyone doing well, we've had such an awful week I've not really taken much in. I have been trying to follow the other thread about the poor boy who's been diagnosed with lymphoma but I have to admit I was getting frustrated by the diagnosis from just a scan.


Hopefully now he is getting stronger the meds will be better tolerated and greater improvement seen as he gets better.

I had to stop posting on that thread as I bit a big hole in my tongue!



Forester said:


> Please don't apologise for forgetting the Rice Crispies. I'd probably have forgotten my name in your position. I cannot begin to imagine how distressing it must be to see Monty so poorly. If you're anything like me you feel so helpless .
> 
> I'm so so pleased to hear that Monty seems to be improving. He is top priority. If you get a chance I'd love to try any dry food , rice crispies, hoola hoops or anything but *please *send it *when and only when its convenient.*
> I just can't hold the tears back unless I can find a way to completely distract myself. The roller coaster goes from high to low so very quickly. Dylan vomited after the level teaspoonful of Hills d/d venison which I used to make a gravy for his rabbit. He then decided that he wasn't going to eat anything and retreated to a chair in a dark room where he sat hunched up as if he was in pain.
> 
> Its been a nightmare to get him to eat since although he did eat overnight last night. Breakfast this morning was returned.I've now realised that the problem isn't chicken and offal. It seems to be anything new which is introduced no matter how gradually. I was so desperate after the Hills d/d episode that I even thawed some minced beef and tried that. No go. He's now reluctant to eat his rabbit and the RC Sensitivity control. Most of the eating he's done since Thursday has been through bribery. I have broken up a few pieces of Thrive salmon ( a free sample ) and hidden these in the wet.
> 
> I'd love to try him with any dry which is available if its o k with you. I almost went to my vets this morning to return the d/d wet and to get some z/d dry, or anything else which might help, to try. I didn't go, deciding to wait over the weekend hoping that my thoughts might be clearer by then.
> 
> Prior to Christmas,/New Year I had a really good 2 weeks with him and I'm starting to think that it may have been due to the after effects of the Slippery Elm Bark which I gave him for 2 weeks. Sadly I gave that up as he was refusing to eat anything which he could detect the SEB in.
> 
> Enough of our woes, Dyl is sleeping beside me at the moment oblivious to the worry he's causing me .
> 
> Anyway, the top priority is Monty . Sending love, hugs and topping up those vibes for him again.


Did you get any joy with the frozen mice? I would be inclined to try one with him as close to a natural diet..I also presuming mice are complete? Maybe he can't eat commercial cat food, so there must be an additive that it's doing it in commercial food.

I would be very interested to hear his reaction to a mouse..


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I haven't tried it.  I've been in such a tizz the last few days I haven't known whether I've been coming or going. I'll go to the reptile shop on Monday . I'm sure that they must sell them. I'll let you know what happens .Your help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> sarahecp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sylv, I'm sorry to hear Dyl has been sick and not eating well  I hope he gets his appetite back and there's no more returns.
> 
> It sounds like it could well have been the SEB (naughty ginger, I'll tell him off  ) I really do think it's worth giving the dry ago, I know our views but if it helps and he eats it it's defiantly worth it.
> 
> Sending lots and lots of positive vibes to our not so good furbabes, lots of hugs and thoughts to their slaves and well wishes for everyone else xx xx
> 
> We WILL all get through this together xx
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for making me laugh about Ginger  I'm now at the stage when I'll try almost anything. Dylan was so much better for 2 - 3 weeks so I do think that it must have been the SEB. I want to try to find a way to get him to take it again. I messaged lorilu to ask how she gives it - it seems that she mixes the powder and water into wet food. I only have the RCSC that's wet and he's unreliable with that. He's become unreliable with anything.
> 
> I decided earlier today to try the pro kolin enterogenic sachets and mixed a little with some RCSC. He has just finished it but its taken him 6 hours to eat less than half a pouch. They say that it takes about 30 days to see any improvement.
> 
> I think that , as Nicola suggests, it must be something in the commercial foods which is causing the problem. I think that I've got so down because every time he reacts the reaction seems worse than the previous time. I know I mentioned to you that for the last week or so he's been crying after eating, that's been better today.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your support . Without you all I'd need to get buffie's suit delivered by express delivery.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all
Click to expand...


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> I haven't tried it.  I've been in such a tizz the last few days I haven't known whether I've been coming or going. I'll go to the reptile shop on Monday . I'm sure that they must sell them. I'll let you know what happens .Your help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks for making me laugh about Ginger  I'm now at the stage when I'll try almost anything. Dylan was so much better for 2 - 3 weeks so I do think that it must have been the SEB. I want to try to find a way to get him to take it again. I messaged lorilu to ask how she gives it - it seems that she mixes the powder and water into wet food. I only have the RCSC that's wet and he's unreliable with that. He's become unreliable with anything.
> 
> I decided earlier today to try the pro kolin enterogenic sachets and mixed a little with some RCSC. He has just finished it but its taken him 6 hours to eat less than half a pouch. They say that it takes about 30 days to see any improvement.
> 
> I think that , as Nicola suggests, it must be something in the commercial foods which is causing the problem. I think that I've got so down because every time he reacts the reaction seems worse than the previous time. I know I mentioned to you that for the last week or so he's been crying after eating, that's been better today.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your support . Without you all I'd need to get buffie's suit delivered by express delivery.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all


Sorry to be a pain....can you post Dylan's history again, ie age you got him, from where, any known history prior to that, what food he was on, any reports ref food from the shelter, what happened with food since you got home.

If my memory is right he was a stray? And used to scraps? Apologies if this is incorrect


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I haven't tried it.  I've been in such a tizz the last few days I haven't known whether I've been coming or going. I'll go to the reptile shop on Monday . I'm sure that they must sell them. I'll let you know what happens .Your help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks for making me laugh about Ginger  I'm now at the stage when I'll try almost anything. Dylan was so much better for 2 - 3 weeks so I do think that it must have been the SEB. I want to try to find a way to get him to take it again. I messaged lorilu to ask how she gives it - it seems that she mixes the powder and water into wet food. I only have the RCSC that's wet and he's unreliable with that. He's become unreliable with anything.
> 
> I decided earlier today to try the pro kolin enterogenic sachets and mixed a little with some RCSC. He has just finished it but its taken him 6 hours to eat less than half a pouch. They say that it takes about 30 days to see any improvement.
> 
> I think that , as Nicola suggests, it must be something in the commercial foods which is causing the problem. I think that I've got so down because every time he reacts the reaction seems worse than the previous time. I know I mentioned to you that for the last week or so he's been crying after eating, that's been better today.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your support . Without you all I'd need to get buffie's suit delivered by express delivery.
> 
> love and positive vibes to all


I'm pleased to hear Dyl's crying has been better today 

When I got my SEB I'd read somewhere that mixing it with honey to tempt them to eat it, bought a jar of local honey for £7.99  mixed it up, Roman wouldn't touch it 

I read something on face book today, not sure if it was by Dr Karen Becker, but I can't find it now  was about cats vomiting after eating and raising their food bowls can help. When I find it I'll post a link.

xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry to be a pain....can you post Dylan's history again, ie age you got him, from where, any known history prior to that, what food he was on, any reports ref food from the shelter, what happened with food since you got home.
> 
> If my memory is right he was a stray? And used to scraps? Apologies if this is incorrect


No problems  Warning :Skip para 3 if you are eating or are squeamish

1 Dylan was adopted from Cats Protection in March 2013. CP collected him from a local vets where he had been taken by a couple who found him playing " chicken " with the traffic on a busy road . It was assumed that he had been living rough. He was found in a town centre close to numerous takeaways and a large housing estate.He was estimated to be approx 6 months old .

2 We adopted him 3 days later. I was in touch with a lady from CP who told me about him when she knew that they would be having him. He was neutered ,vet checked and de wormed ( round ) and fleaed the day we took him.

3 He was carrying a heavy tapeworm burden when we had him although the lady from CP was unaware. She had had him for less than 24 hours. He was treated for tapeworm and vaccinated 2 weeks after adoption. The soonest I was told that it could be done. In the 2 weeks prior to the tapeworm treatment he was passing live worm segments on an almost daily basis as well as eggs.( Sorry about that )

I was told that CP had fed him on bog standard Felix pouches ( not AGAIL ).
I started him on Felix pouches then after about 2 weeks changed him over to Omm Nom Nom and Macs, as well as natures menu pouches. I added Granatapet and Ropocat about 2 months later.

Dylan had an insatiable appetite when he arrived. He would eat until he was sick every time if he was allowed to. He acted as though he was permanently absolutely ravenous. He managed to eat cabbage, bread, anything he could get hold of before we realised that absolutely nothing could be left unattended for even a moment. One evening he ate an apple size/shaped piece out of a fruit cake.

He vomited occaisionaly from day one but we put it down to eating too quickly or too much at once each time. I tried him with slow feed bowls, raised dishes and splitting breakfast into 2 then 3 courses with gaps between.

Vomiting was initially always with breakfast. I did notice that he was more likely to vomit when he had natures menu chicken and turkey so I withdrew that.

I took him to the vets at the start Jan 14 after he vomited 3 times in 2 days. 2 days before this he had pinched OH's porridge.

Dylan's vomiting has gradually become more and more frequent. It was initially always at breakfast time but changed to other times of the day after he went onto ranitidine, an antacid, for a while.

When first seeing the vet she put him onto the RCSC chicken and rice pouches and he went 23 days without vomiting.

You, and anyone else reaching this part of the post deserve a medal if you're still awake. I hope that this info helps and that I haven't bored you.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm pleased to hear Dyl's crying has been better today
> 
> When I got my SEB I'd read somewhere that mixing it with honey to tempt them to eat it, bought a jar of local honey for £7.99  mixed it up, Roman wouldn't touch it
> 
> I read something on face book today, not sure if it was by Dr Karen Becker, but I can't find it now  was about cats vomiting after eating and raising their food bowls can help. When I find it I'll post a link.
> 
> xx


Thanks for the suggestions, Sarah.  and for the sentiment. Dyl's obviously much more comfortable today. 
We've tried raised bowls ( various heights ), a " gobble stop " bowl and a weird green slow feeder. Interestingly I only used the weird feeder twice. It slowed his eating time from 15 seconds to 20 + minutes and he was sick both times.

The honey could be worth a try.  I'll pinch some of OH's 

Thanks for the help everyone . Dyl's asking for food now  so I'll be back in a while.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, Sarah.  and for the sentiment. Dyl's obviously much more comfortable today.
> We've tried raised bowls ( various heights ), a " gobble stop " bowl and a weird green slow feeder. Interestingly I only used the weird feeder twice. It slowed his eating time from 15 seconds to 20 + minutes and he was sick both times.
> 
> The honey could be worth a try.  I'll pinch some of OH's
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone . Dyl's asking for food now  so I'll be back in a while.


Just had to google Gobble Stop bowl  I remember you saying before that Dyl was sick when he used the slow feeder. They are funny looking things


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Just had to google Gobble Stop bowl  I remember you saying before that Dyl was sick when he used the slow feeder. They are funny looking things


I know that I should have posted links but I'm not very good at it.

Dyl's just had some rabbit with a little more PKE mixed in and eaten most of it. I wonder whether I could mix some pumpkin with the rabbit and mix either PKE or SEB into the pumpkin. He's had Applaws chicken and pumpkin in the past and liked it. I do want him on something complete but adding pumpkin might solve the issue of the boiled rabbit causing constipation.

One of my problems is that I want to try too much at once. I've started the PKE today before the SEB connection to the " miracle fortnight " dawned on me. So, do I stop the PKE ?


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I know that I should have posted links but I'm not very good at it.
> 
> Dyl's just had some rabbit with a little more PKE mixed in and eaten most of it. I wonder whether I could mix some pumpkin with the rabbit and mix either PKE or SEB into the pumpkin. He's had Applaws chicken and pumpkin in the past and liked it. I do want him on something complete but adding pumpkin might solve the issue of the boiled rabbit causing constipation.
> 
> One of my problems is that I want to try too much at once. I've started the PKE today before the SEB connection to the " miracle fortnight " dawned on me. So, do I stop the PKE ?


That's great :thumbup: well done Dyl  

None of my 3 ever liked the Applaws chicken and pumpkin, but do like pumpkin, Roman will eat it on it's own.

I would try to stick to one thing at a time as not knowing what has caused Dyl to be sick, try the PKE for now and see how he goes.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> That's great :thumbup: well done Dyl
> 
> None of my 3 ever liked the Applaws chicken and pumpkin, but do like pumpkin, Roman will eat it on it's own.
> 
> I would try to stick to one thing at a time as not knowing what has caused Dyl to be sick, try the PKE for now and see how he goes.


I'll do that. Its definitely easier than the Slippery Elm Bark to get him to take though its incredibly messy. Its a really, really fine powder.

I've just read something which suggested changing cat litter for a vomiting cat. It said that the litter gets licked off the paws and ends up in the digestive system. Unfortunately it omitted to tell you what to use as litter. It just said " something more natural ". I can't imagine that Dylan can ingest much cat litter. Most ends up on the floor


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'll do that. Its definitely easier than the Slippery Elm Bark to get him to take though its incredibly messy. Its a really, really fine powder.
> 
> I've just read something which suggested changing cat litter for a vomiting cat. It said that the litter gets licked off the paws and ends up in the digestive system. Unfortunately it omitted to tell you what to use as litter. It just said " something more natural ". I can't imagine that Dylan can ingest much cat litter. Most ends up on the floor


Oh the SEB is really dusty 

That's interesting, makes sense, what litter do you use now? Roman has it everywhere, the floor, bed, it's gets stuck to his furry paws, tail and pantaloons, I've even found it in my dressing gown pocket


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Oh the SEB is really dusty
> 
> That's interesting, makes sense, what litter do you use now? Roman has it everywhere, the floor, bed, it's gets stuck to his furry paws, tail and pantaloons, I've even found it in my dressing gown pocket


I use a mixture of Oko and Natures Calling. Actually perhaps I'd be better to stop the Natures Calling. I can't imagine that ingesting walnut shell pieces can be that beneficial for his digestion.:thumbdown:


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I use a mixture of Oko and Natures Calling. Actually perhaps I'd be better to stop the Natures Calling. I can't imagine that ingesting walnut shell pieces can be that beneficial for his digestion.:thumbdown:


I use Oko and have done a mix of Oko and natures gold pellets, also tried worlds best, which is corn based, so so dusty  I also got put off by reading that corn based litters can get eggs and larvae in them   thinking about that is as bad as the worms


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I use Oko and have done a mix of Oko and natures gold pellets, also tried worlds best, which is corn based, so so dusty  I also got put off by reading that corn based litters can get eggs and larvae in them   thinking about that is as bad as the worms


  

I've just done a search to see what the " natural clumping fibres " in Oko plus are made of , its wood fibre. I can't imagine that its ideal but what would be ? I've almost always used Oko though , including at the times when Dylan has gone weeks on end without vomiting ,so I suppose that it can't have affected him. I tried Greencat once which is corn based so I'm glad that I didn't continue with that one.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I've just done a search to see what the " natural clumping fibres " in Oko plus are made of , its wood fibre. I can't imagine that its ideal but what would be ? I've almost always used Oko though , including at the times when Dylan has gone weeks on end without vomiting ,so I suppose that it can't have affected him. I tried Greencat once which is corn based so I'm glad that I didn't continue with that one.


I wouldn't think the litter is causing any issues.

You could always go the soil route


----------



## Vienna1

Can't quote again! 

Monty seemed lots better last night crying to be out of his cage and when the door was open kept coming out to try to jump up to his normal bed. Still worried about him jumping with the tube and being unsteady in his feet, so had to lock him back in. 

He isn't using the litter tray to pee at the moment he's going on his bed, those toddler matress pampers things have been fantastic. Think I'll always keep some in, in future for emergencies. The odd thing is he goes to the tray to poo and we found a solid one this morning . Wondering if its stress related as he went to their normal litter tray in our ensuite when he was having a little walk and used it for a pee. So maybe its the being locked in the cage. We are going to try to let him out a bit today if he wants when we can supervise him. 

Feel awful saying this but yesterday I pretty much left his care to my husband I just needed a break from him I barely left his side since he came back from the hospital on Tuesday evening. Think the longest he's been left has been five minutes to go to the loo or make a coffee.

Hope everyone else is doing well today. 

Sylv how is Dylan today? This might sound a stupid question but what does he normally do after eating? I ask because our first cat used to be sick after virtually everything she ate, we tried different foods, feeding smaller meals but the only thing that worked for her ( don't laugh) was to put her into her bed as soon as she finished eating and sit with her so she couldn't get out. We'd stroke her for a little while until she settled then after a while she'd be fine to get up.


----------



## Forester

Afternoon All

I'm desperately hoping that Monty is improving . Fingers crossed that he is eating of his own accord and that his body is adjusting to cope with the chlorambucil. He and Den are constantly in my thoughts. If it were possible to will him well he would be the healthiest cat on the planet.



sarahecp said:


> I wouldn't think the litter is causing any issues.
> 
> You could always go the soil route


No, I don't really think that the litter is contributory. I was , I suppose, trying to illustrate that digestive issues are put down to all sorts of factors by different people.

The plan for the SEB/ PKE has hit a significant hitch. Silly slave , forgot to check that the boss would comply. RCSC with PKE was almost untouched overnight. I removed it at 5.30 am in case he consumed some late on. I didn't want it in his stomach when I fed breakfast at 7.30. I suspect that may have been what happened yesterday morning when he vomited breakfast . The " pile " included quite a lot of the overnight food.

The raw( ish )  route looks as though it might be more successful to try. He's now enjoying chicken breast part cooked in the micro though he won't eat it raw yet. I plan to gradually cook it less and less.

Tomorrow I'm off to the reptile shop to see what I can get in the mouse line. I hope that they don't have too many snakes in there or I will be in and out in double quick time.:w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

I'm also going to get some natures menu raw as I can get that easily locally.

Nicola. Sorry I forgot to mention that Dyl used to eat ,and enjoy, raw chicken wings ( 1/2 daily ) and raw lamb neck. I hope that the details I provided were what you were looking for.

bc, Thanks for giving me the confidence that it might be possible to go the raw route. I'm mystified as to why you might think that anyone here would criticise you for going raw with blue. I only admire you . I get the impression that most of us would like to go raw if only our cats would co operate.

Sending positive vibes to all and wishing everyone a blip free week.


----------



## Forester

Whoops, I forgot to ask how much pumpkin to use. I don't want Dyl to get constipated again so think that it would be a good idea to add some when what he's eating is not complete. 

Do you freeze it in an ice cube tray for future use?

How long will it keep in the fridge?

Apologies for so many questions.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Can't quote again!
> 
> Monty seemed lots better last night crying to be out of his cage and when the door was open kept coming out to try to jump up to his normal bed. Still worried about him jumping with the tube and being unsteady in his feet, so had to lock him back in.
> 
> He isn't using the litter tray to pee at the moment he's going on his bed, those toddler matress pampers things have been fantastic. Think I'll always keep some in, in future for emergencies. The odd thing is he goes to the tray to poo and we found a solid one this morning . Wondering if its stress related as he went to their normal litter tray in our ensuite when he was having a little walk and used it for a pee. So maybe its the being locked in the cage. We are going to try to let him out a bit today if he wants when we can supervise him.
> 
> Feel awful saying this but yesterday I pretty much left his care to my husband I just needed a break from him I barely left his side since he came back from the hospital on Tuesday evening. Think the longest he's been left has been five minutes to go to the loo or make a coffee.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing well today.
> 
> Sylv how is Dylan today? This might sound a stupid question but what does he normally do after eating? I ask because our first cat used to be sick after virtually everything she ate, we tried different foods, feeding smaller meals but the only thing that worked for her ( don't laugh) was to put her into her bed as soon as she finished eating and sit with her so she couldn't get out. We'd stroke her for a little while until she settled then after a while she'd be fine to get up.


That's great news Den :thumbup: I'm soooo pleased Monty is a brighter   and he had a firm poo!   he must be feeling better to want out of his cage. Keep it up Monty 

It sounds like the weeing in his bed could be a stress thing from being in the cage, especially if he's used the tray while he's been out of it.

Don't feel awful, you need a break and as your hubby will take over from you he's still getting the care he needs.

Really hoping Monty is now going forwards, sending lots more positive vibes and hugs for you both xxx


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Afternoon All
> 
> I'm desperately hoping that Monty is improving . Fingers crossed that he is eating of his own accord and that his body is adjusting to cope with the chlorambucil. He and Den are constantly in my thoughts. If it were possible to will him well he would be the healthiest cat on the planet.
> 
> No, I don't really think that the litter is contributory. I was , I suppose, trying to illustrate that digestive issues are put down to all sorts of factors by different people.
> 
> The plan for the SEB/ PKE has hit a significant hitch. Silly slave , forgot to check that the boss would comply. RCSC with PKE was almost untouched overnight. I removed it at 5.30 am in case he consumed some late on. I didn't want it in his stomach when I fed breakfast at 7.30. I suspect that may have been what happened yesterday morning when he vomited breakfast . The " pile " included quite a lot of the overnight food.
> 
> The raw( ish )  route looks as though it might be more successful to try. He's now enjoying chicken breast part cooked in the micro though he won't eat it raw yet. I plan to gradually cook it less and less.
> 
> Tomorrow I'm off to the reptile shop to see what I can get in the mouse line. I hope that they don't have too many snakes in there or I will be in and out in double quick time.:w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
> 
> I'm also going to get some natures menu raw as I can get that easily locally.
> 
> Nicola. Sorry I forgot to mention that Dyl used to eat ,and enjoy, raw chicken wings ( 1/2 daily ) and raw lamb neck. I hope that the details I provided were what you were looking for.
> 
> bc, Thanks for giving me the confidence that it might be possible to go the raw route. I'm mystified as to why you might think that anyone here would criticise you for going raw with blue. I only admire you . I get the impression that most of us would like to go raw if only our cats would co operate.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to all and wishing everyone a blip free week.





Forester said:


> Whoops, I forgot to ask how much pumpkin to use. I don't want Dyl to get constipated again so think that it would be a good idea to add some when what he's eating is not complete.
> 
> Do you freeze it in an ice cube tray for future use?
> 
> How long will it keep in the fridge?
> 
> Apologies for so many questions.


Exciting about the raw-ish and getting some raw  I'm pleased Dyl enjoyed the chicken breast, good luck and really hoping it helps. I wish Seb and Roman would eat raw, Seb's had a lick and a nibble in the past but that's more than Roman has done, a sniff and walks away. I may try them again in a few months and add it to Roman's list of things to try.

Good luck at the reptile shop  just keep your eyes covered then you won't see the snakes 

For constipation I'm not too sure but I started off with a teaspoon of pumpkin in each meal, after a couple of days Nicola suggested I try 2, did this for a few days and his poo started to firm up, then went back to one. He was having pumpkin added for over a month.

I used to freeze into ice cube trays and take out as I needed them, defrost really quick. When I was giving it to Roman often I'd leave in the fridge in one of those glass jars with the clip lids for up to a week.

No need to apologise  xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> No problems  Warning :Skip para 3 if you are eating or are squeamish
> 
> 1 Dylan was adopted from Cats Protection in March 2013. CP collected him from a local vets where he had been taken by a couple who found him playing " chicken " with the traffic on a busy road . It was assumed that he had been living rough. He was found in a town centre close to numerous takeaways and a large housing estate.He was estimated to be approx 6 months old .
> 
> 2 We adopted him 3 days later. I was in touch with a lady from CP who told me about him when she knew that they would be having him. He was neutered ,vet checked and de wormed ( round ) and fleaed the day we took him.
> 
> 3 He was carrying a heavy tapeworm burden when we had him although the lady from CP was unaware. She had had him for less than 24 hours. He was treated for tapeworm and vaccinated 2 weeks after adoption. The soonest I was told that it could be done. In the 2 weeks prior to the tapeworm treatment he was passing live worm segments on an almost daily basis as well as eggs.( Sorry about that )
> 
> I was told that CP had fed him on bog standard Felix pouches ( not AGAIL ).
> I started him on Felix pouches then after about 2 weeks changed him over to Omm Nom Nom and Macs, as well as natures menu pouches. I added Granatapet and Ropocat about 2 months later.
> 
> Dylan had an insatiable appetite when he arrived. He would eat until he was sick every time if he was allowed to. He acted as though he was permanently absolutely ravenous. He managed to eat cabbage, bread, anything he could get hold of before we realised that absolutely nothing could be left unattended for even a moment. One evening he ate an apple size/shaped piece out of a fruit cake.
> 
> He vomited occaisionaly from day one but we put it down to eating too quickly or too much at once each time. I tried him with slow feed bowls, raised dishes and splitting breakfast into 2 then 3 courses with gaps between.
> 
> Vomiting was initially always with breakfast. I did notice that he was more likely to vomit when he had natures menu chicken and turkey so I withdrew that.
> 
> I took him to the vets at the start Jan 14 after he vomited 3 times in 2 days. 2 days before this he had pinched OH's porridge.
> 
> Dylan's vomiting has gradually become more and more frequent. It was initially always at breakfast time but changed to other times of the day after he went onto ranitidine, an antacid, for a while.
> 
> When first seeing the vet she put him onto the RCSC chicken and rice pouches and he went 23 days without vomiting.
> 
> You, and anyone else reaching this part of the post deserve a medal if you're still awake. I hope that this info helps and that I haven't bored you.


So potenitailly this could have been cause by the worm burden or the fact he had been eating a lot of foods he shouldn't!

I'm really thinking that he may have a food allergy to commercial food, hope you get a mouse and be interesting to what reaction there is.. Tho not sure how long a mouse would take to cook in a microwave ;-)

Good to hear the chicken is being tolerated too maybe some doc as well could be added


----------



## Forester

Sorry, ladies. I have visitors due now so have only had time for an ultra quick read. I'll reply properly tomorrow when I've been to the reptile shop.

Sending positive vibes to all.


----------



## Forester

I came on to send positive vibes for Den and Monty along with good luck wishes for the vet trip tonight. 
I was thinking of you this morning and wondering whether you were back at work today and how you are coping. I really hope that you've managed to get some rest. Its always easier to cope when you are rested. 
Dyl and I send our love to you both.

I also have to apologise for missing your question below. I have a memory like a sieve and find that once I go to post I forget what I'm intending to reply to.


Vienna1 said:


> This might sound a stupid question but what does he normally do after eating?


Not a stupid question at all. No consistent answer though. Sometimes he will be quiet, sometimes he races around like a loony despite our attempts to keep him quiet after his food. Strangely enough I don't think that what he does makes much difference .He's been sick in his bed before now. I will start recording what he's doing when he vomits in my diary though, in case there is a pattern.

Micky ( mouse ) is currently thawing on a radiator in a bedroom. Dylan was excitedly trying to grab it whilst it was still frozen. He cried and shouted outside the bedroom door when I closed it. Will report again later.

I hope that everyone else is o k.


----------



## sarahecp

Den, good luck and hope all goes well at Monty's vet visit. Really hope he's doing ok. Topping up those positive and healing vibes xx


Sylv, hope Dyl is vomit free today and eating more, good luck with Mickey  sounds like Dyl is very interested :thumbup: look forward to the update. 


Hope everyone else is doing ok and no blips, hope Buffie and Meeko have been ok with the storms, you've been in my thoughts. 


Roman is still doing ok  2 weeks was up today for me to update Patricia, I put a call in to her but was told she was off today, so they'll pass my message on for her to call me tomorrow. So fingers crossed for weaning off the Pred. 

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

I can't wait to hear about mickeys.............keeping everything crossed


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I can't wait to hear about mickeys.............keeping everything crossed


Mickey is off the menu  ( for now  )

Sorry, I'm a chicken ,I backed out. 

OH was not impressed, it seems that when I brought it in he thought it was a toy . He didn't approve but I was still going to try.

I didn't want to microwave it in case the bones went brittle so I offered it raw and warm.I threw him to Dyl in the kitchen ( tiled floor ) and it was tossed about for a few minutes  I scored along the belly with a knife so that Dyl could get the smell of blood as he didn't really look as though he was going to eat it. The smell was horrible. I wonder whether I left it on the radiator too long. Anyway, I grabbed it quickly and threw it in the bin. It really didn't smell safe to eat. Once the innards were exposed I'm sure that he *would *have eaten it.

It was a good idea as far as I am concerned but I don't think that mice would be affordable. Mickey was £ 1.45 and only contained a couple of bites worth of meat. I think that I would need to feed about 10 a day so its not very practical .

On a more positive note Dyl hasn't been sick since I dropped the RCSC again though I can't get him to have any PKE or SEB. He went to grab some raw chicken as I was about to micro some this morning. He ate a couple of pieces of raw but I microed the rest which he's eaten with some pumpkin.  Thanks again , Sarah 

Once more I've started to post without going back to check which points in previous posts I was going to reply to. Please can you excuse me, my old brain finds it very difficult to keep up when things are moving so quickly.

Sarah, Its great that Roman continues to improve. Please let us know what Patricia has to say when you manage to make contact.

Nicola ,I hope that Rileys tummy is better since going back onto the kangaroo. Have you ever tried him with Slippery Elm ?. I do think that it must have been helping Dyl before he decided that he wouldn't take it any more . I'm sure that you've tried most things but ,if not, it might be worth a try.

I'm anxiously waiting for news of Monty, desperately hoping that he's feeling better and that Den can get some time out to relax and take care of herself.

Thinking also of buffie, Meeko, bluecordelia, blue and IBDers everywhere.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Mickey is off the menu  ( for now  )
> 
> Sorry, I'm a chicken ,I backed out.
> 
> OH was not impressed, it seems that when I brought it in he thought it was a toy . He didn't approve but I was still going to try.
> 
> I didn't want to microwave it in case the bones went brittle so I offered it raw and warm.I threw him to Dyl in the kitchen ( tiled floor ) and it was tossed about for a few minutes  I scored along the belly with a knife so that Dyl could get the smell of blood as he didn't really look as though he was going to eat it. The smell was horrible. I wonder whether I left it on the radiator too long. Anyway, I grabbed it quickly and threw it in the bin. It really didn't smell safe to eat. Once the innards were exposed I'm sure that he *would *have eaten it.
> 
> It was a good idea as far as I am concerned but I don't think that mice would be affordable. Mickey was £ 1.45 and only contained a couple of bites worth of meat. I think that I would need to feed about 10 a day so its not very practical .
> 
> On a more positive note Dyl hasn't been sick since I dropped the RCSC again though I can't get him to have any PKE or SEB. He went to grab some raw chicken as I was about to micro some this morning. He ate a couple of pieces of raw but I microed the rest which he's eaten with some pumpkin.  Thanks again , Sarah
> 
> Once more I've started to post without going back to check which points in previous posts I was going to reply to. Please can you excuse me, my old brain finds it very difficult to keep up when things are moving so quickly.
> 
> Sarah, Its great that Roman continues to improve. Please let us know what Patricia has to say when you manage to make contact.
> 
> Nicola ,I hope that Rileys tummy is better since going back onto the kangaroo. Have you ever tried him with Slippery Elm ?. I do think that it must have been helping Dyl before he decided that he wouldn't take it any more . I'm sure that you've tried most things but ,if not, it might be worth a try.
> 
> I'm anxiously waiting for news of Monty, desperately hoping that he's feeling better and that Den can get some time out to relax and take care of herself.
> 
> Thinking also of buffie, Meeko, bluecordelia, blue and IBDers everywhere.


Ah..maybe the next one defrost naturally  it's worth trying to see if he reacts, not necessarily a forever food, but a trial to see if he can eat the food raw with out throwing up..it may also help with him eating more raw. Perhaps a doc would be a better way to go..

Riley is still in a blip..not very nice today  but we will get there..


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Ah..maybe the next one defrost naturally  it's worth trying to see if he reacts, not necessarily a forever food, but a trial to see if he can eat the food raw with out throwing up..it may also help with him eating more raw. Perhaps a doc would be a better way to go..
> 
> Riley is still in a blip..not very nice today  but we will get there..


Oh poor Riley. Is he showing any improvement since going back to the skippy ? Come on skippy, work your magic.

I asked about DOCS . The chappy said that they are sold in packs of 50. The mouse he tried to sell me was tiny and that was classified as a medium. Mickey was a " large ". I'll have to get a" medium" to try. I should be able to sneak that in without anyone noticing. I'll keep it quiet ( at home ) when I try it.


----------



## Vienna1

Evening everyone hope you are all well. Firstly thank you so much for all your well wishes for the little dude. We've been to the vets for his check up and although he has dropped a little more weight his vet is still happy with him, he said its going to take time for the nutrition to start to work and we have to remember he only started getting his full allowance from Thursday. So from this Thursday his allowance increases by 10% 

I know I'm looking for miracles and there's no quick fix but just feel so shattered with every little setback. He looks so miserable since we've got home this evening. He's swallowing a lot and looks like he feels sick, which the vet thinks is likely to be from the hole where the tube goes in through his neck. Its weeping and really smells bad but he assures us this is completely normal but said its probably weeping on the inside too so he will taste it. I very much doubt he's going to eat of his own accord while he has this tube he just looks totally sickened when we offer anything. The one positive I can take is I thought he seemed stronger when I was trying to stop him getting into the carrier and the vet commented too that he has some strength. 

Tomorrow will be the first day he'll have to be left since he had the tube fitted, which I'm dreading, today my husband took holiday to look after him. The vet said to keep him in his cage while I'm away and he'll be fine. I'm sure I'm going to be more bothered than he is! I m only in work four hours so will be away maybe five in total which feels like forever to leave him. I'm off from wed until next Monday again so at least its only tomorrow. 

Couldn't help but feel it was with a heavy heart that we gave him his Leukeran tonight knowing how it makes him feel but its got to be done. Ok I'm rambling now so going to shut up. 

Sylv I promise tomorrow I'm going to get the rice crispies sorted to send and the hula hoops. (Hate to think what any visitors to this thread must be thinking we feed our cats on 

Fingers crossed for everyone to be feeling better no more blips

Sarah every time I see that picture of Roman I want to stroke his tufty ears they are so cute


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Oh poor Riley. Is he showing any improvement since going back to the skippy ? Come on skippy, work your magic.
> 
> I asked about DOCS . The chappy said that they are sold in packs of 50. The mouse he tried to sell me was tiny and that was classified as a medium. Mickey was a " large ". I'll have to get a" medium" to try. I should be able to sneak that in without anyone noticing. I'll keep it quiet ( at home ) when I try it.


I have fed some ostrich tonight (got delivery) I will see how he is tomorrow and assess whether a period of metrondazole is needed for him, hopefully not but it's great in these sorts of times as helps with any inflammation...we will see..


----------



## nicolaa123

Vienna1 said:


> Evening everyone hope you are all well. Firstly thank you so much for all your well wishes for the little dude. We've been to the vets for his check up and although he has dropped a little more weight his vet is still happy with him, he said its going to take time for the nutrition to start to work and we have to remember he only started getting his full allowance from Thursday. So from this Thursday his allowance increases by 10%
> 
> I know I'm looking for miracles and there's no quick fix but just feel so shattered with every little setback. He looks so miserable since we've got home this evening. He's swallowing a lot and looks like he feels sick, which the vet thinks is likely to be from the hole where the tube goes in through his neck. Its weeping and really smells bad but he assures us this is completely normal but said its probably weeping on the inside too so he will taste it. I very much doubt he's going to eat of his own accord while he has this tube he just looks totally sickened when we offer anything. The one positive I can take is I thought he seemed stronger when I was trying to stop him getting into the carrier and the vet commented too that he has some strength.
> 
> Tomorrow will be the first day he'll have to be left since he had the tube fitted, which I'm dreading, today my husband took holiday to look after him. The vet said to keep him in his cage while I'm away and he'll be fine. I'm sure I'm going to be more bothered than he is! I m only in work four hours so will be away maybe five in total which feels like forever to leave him. I'm off from wed until next Monday again so at least its only tomorrow.
> 
> Couldn't help but feel it was with a heavy heart that we gave him his Leukeran tonight knowing how it makes him feel but its got to be done. Ok I'm rambling now so going to shut up.
> 
> Sylv I promise tomorrow I'm going to get the rice crispies sorted to send and the hula hoops. (Hate to think what any visitors to this thread must be thinking we feed our cats on
> 
> Fingers crossed for everyone to be feeling better no more blips
> 
> Sarah every time I see that picture of Roman I want to stroke his tufty ears they are so cute


Have they said how long the tube will stay in..topping up them positive vibes and I am sure the meds will kick in very very soon..


----------



## Vienna1

nicolaa123 said:


> Have they said how long the tube will stay in..topping up them positive vibes and I am sure the meds will kick in very very soon..


He said originally it would be great if it could come out in seven to ten days but it can stay in months if we need it there. Its not looking like its a short term thing as he's refusing all food completely, although part of me wonders if he will ever eat while its there. The sad thing is his stomach feels really good apparently. He said the lymph nodes now feel completely normal. He had three poo's yesterday two of which were solid and the third solid with a little soft that followed. It seems the big issue is the refusal to eat.


----------



## Vienna1

Nicola sorry to hear Riley has had a blip hope he's feeling better now. 

This really is a miserable disease for them and their humans.


----------



## Jonny and Slush

Thanks so much for this article, I am just about to adopt my first cat and never had any idea about the information in this article


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all, having trouble with quoting again, think it's my phone, it's quoting posts from other threads and not this one 

Sylv, pleased Dyl didn't have any returns yesterday  and hope he's continued not to have any today. Well done for trying Mickey with Dyl, I've always wanted to try mice and DOC with the boys but don't have anywhere local that stocks them. Pets @ Home gave me a strange look when I asked for them. Weird 

Good luck with sneaking in the next one 


Nicola, sorry to hear that Riley is still blipping  hopefully the Metrodanizole will help and the ostrich is a success with Riley and his bum. 


Den, I really hope Monty is ok and he's been ok today while you were back at work today. Sending lots more positive vibes his way. 

How has he been after having his Chlorambucil last night?

When all this started with Roman I too was looking for miracles, you're not alone, think we've all been there, you get disheartened with every setback  I was emotionally and physically drained, I'd get up at all ours, clean and scrub the litter tray and floors and sit on the kitchen floor crying and sobbing my heart out  I honestly couldn't see an end to Roman's dire rear and troubles, my heart broke for him everytime I saw him hunched over, crying before he used the litter tray and when he used it  I was so negative and couldn't think any positive thoughts at all, my anxiety got worse and I did feel I was at breaking point. 

I was told by Nicola that it would be a long road but we would get there and we all would. And that has always stuck in my mind. 

It has been a long road and I know at the moment things are ok and I know we will have blips, but I am so glad and grateful that I have you ladies to share things with, we're here to help and support each other, it's sad we have our beloved cats that are suffering and going through this horrible disease  but without you all I think I would have lost it a long time ago. 


Roman is still doing ok  I'm still waiting on a call from Patricia, but understand she's busy. 

I've invested in 2 microchip feeders for Frank and Seb as they've been refusing to eat the skippy  been testing the out while I'm at home and making sure Roman cannot get to their food. It's going ok. There is a switch underneath that has 3 settings for the lid to close at different speeds when they move away, it was on the slowest setting and Roman could easily get to the food, now moved on the the fastest setting, Roman can't get the food, Frank and Seb haven't got used to it yet but I'm sure they will soon enough. Once they're used to it and I'm confident and happy that Roman can't get their food they can use it all the time. Roman has been sitting next to it pawing at the see through lid thinking he can touch the food 


Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> We've been to the vets for his check up and although he has dropped a little more weight his vet is still happy with him, he said its going to take time for the nutrition to start to work and we have to remember he only started getting his full allowance from Thursday. So from this Thursday his allowance increases by 10%
> 
> I know I'm looking for miracles and there's no quick fix but just feel so shattered with every little setback. He looks so miserable since we've got home this evening. He's swallowing a lot and looks like he feels sick, which the vet thinks is likely to be from the hole where the tube goes in through his neck. Its weeping and really smells bad but he assures us this is completely normal but said its probably weeping on the inside too so he will taste it. I very much doubt he's going to eat of his own accord while he has this tube he just looks totally sickened when we offer anything. The one positive I can take is I thought he seemed stronger when I was trying to stop him getting into the carrier and the vet commented too that he has some strength.
> 
> Tomorrow will be the first day he'll have to be left since he had the tube fitted, which I'm dreading, today my husband took holiday to look after him. The vet said to keep him in his cage while I'm away and he'll be fine. I'm sure I'm going to be more bothered than he is! I m only in work four hours so will be away maybe five in total which feels like forever to leave him. I'm off from wed until next Monday again so at least its only tomorrow.
> 
> Couldn't help but feel it was with a heavy heart that we gave him his Leukeran tonight knowing how it makes him feel but its got to be done. Ok I'm rambling now so going to shut up.
> 
> Sylv I promise tomorrow I'm going to get the rice crispies sorted to send and the hula hoops. (Hate to think what any visitors to this thread must be thinking we feed our cats on


Vienna, its great news that your vet was pleased with Monty's progress. He must have seen other cases similar to Monty so is an ideal person to judge progress.

The weight maintenance has to be progress despite being with the aid of a tube. It shows that his body is obtaining nutrition from the food.

I understand completely how you feel at each setback. It feels like you're caught in a downward spiral with no escape. I truly hope that you will soon see progress to lift your spirits.

I read earlier today of another kitty who was totally refusing to eat on chlorambucil. The vet had said that it was quite normal and was prepared to tube feed for the entire course. It sounds as though Monty's appetite will recover when the drug course is over.

How is he now and how did you cope at work.?

The hula hoops and rice crispies will be greatfuly tested. May I ask which brand and model each one is so that I will know what we've tried. I won't try adding milk to listen for the snap, crackle, pop. OH and I decided to day that we need to try dry now. Dylan had had his worst ever day today. I'm so glad that I did not feed Mickey because he would otherwise be getting the blame.



nicolaa123 said:


> I have fed some ostrich tonight (got delivery) I will see how he is tomorrow and assess whether a period of metrondazole is needed for him, hopefully not but it's great in these sorts of times as helps with any inflammation...we will see..


How has Emu been received Nicola. Fingers crossed that the metronidazole is not needed but its good to know that its available if necessary.



Vienna1 said:


> He said originally it would be great if it could come out in seven to ten days but it can stay in months if we need it there. Its not looking like its a short term thing as he's refusing all food completely, although part of me wonders if he will ever eat while its there. The sad thing is his stomach feels really good apparently. He said the lymph nodes now feel completely normal. He had three poo's yesterday two of which were solid and the third solid with a little soft that followed. It seems the big issue is the refusal to eat.


It does sound as though Monty *is *doing well. Please try not to worry about having to tube feed. It does mean that he is getting the nutrition he needs.

Sending positive vibes to all, hoping that tomorrow will be a better day for everyone.

Oh, by the way, I officially shouldn't be here. My vet says that no diagnosis has been made for Dylan as all tests have failed to show a cause for his vomiting. I mentioned IBD to which she said " its just vomiting "


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Vienna, its great news that your vet was pleased with Monty's progress. He must have seen other cases similar to Monty so is an ideal person to judge progress.
> 
> The weight maintenance has to be progress despite being with the aid of a tube. It shows that his body is obtaining nutrition from the food.
> 
> I understand completely how you feel at each setback. It feels like you're caught in a downward spiral with no escape. I truly hope that you will soon see progress to lift your spirits.
> 
> I read earlier today of another kitty who was totally refusing to eat on chlorambucil. The vet had said that it was quite normal and was prepared to tube feed for the entire course. It sounds as though Monty's appetite will recover when the drug course is over.
> 
> How is he now and how did you cope at work.?
> 
> The hula hoops and rice crispies will be greatfuly tested. May I ask which brand and model each one is so that I will know what we've tried. I won't try adding milk to listen for the snap, crackle, pop. OH and I decided to day that we need to try dry now. Dylan had had his worst ever day today. I'm so glad that I did not feed Mickey because he would otherwise be getting the blame.
> 
> How has Emu been received Nicola. Fingers crossed that the metronidazole is not needed but its good to know that its available if necessary.
> 
> It does sound as though Monty *is *doing well. Please try not to worry about having to tube feed. It does mean that he is getting the nutrition he needs.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to all, hoping that tomorrow will be a better day for everyone.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I officially shouldn't be here. My vet says that no diagnosis has been made for Dylan as all tests have failed to show a cause for his vomiting. I mentioned IBD to which she said " its just vomiting "


Oh Sylv, I'm sorry Dyl has had a bad day  fingers crossed for better ones to come. When are you going to introduce the dry? What one are you going try Dyl with? Fingers crossed for that too.

Sending positive vibes for Dyl and really hoping this is a blip that you can get under control really soon.

 by what your vets said  I'm no vet but wouldn't class it as just vomiting, there's a reason for everything

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Afternoon all, having trouble with quoting again, think it's my phone, it's quoting posts from other threads and not this one
> 
> Sylv, pleased Dyl didn't have any returns yesterday  and hope he's continued not to have any today. Well done for trying Mickey with Dyl, I've always wanted to try mice and DOC with the boys but don't have anywhere local that stocks them. Pets @ Home gave me a strange look when I asked for them. Weird
> 
> Good luck with sneaking in the next one
> 
> Nicola, sorry to hear that Riley is still blipping  hopefully the Metrodanizole will help and the ostrich is a success with Riley and his bum.
> 
> Den, I really hope Monty is ok and he's been ok today while you were back at work today. Sending lots more positive vibes his way.
> 
> How has he been after having his Chlorambucil last night?
> 
> When all this started with Roman I too was looking for miracles, you're not alone, think we've all been there, you get disheartened with every setback  I was emotionally and physically drained, I'd get up at all ours, clean and scrub the litter tray and floors and sit on the kitchen floor crying and sobbing my heart out  I honestly couldn't see an end to Roman's dire rear and troubles, my heart broke for him everytime I saw him hunched over, crying before he used the litter tray and when he used it  I was so negative and couldn't think any positive thoughts at all, my anxiety got worse and I did feel I was at breaking point.
> 
> I was told by Nicola that it would be a long road but we would get there and we all would. And that has always stuck in my mind.
> 
> It has been a long road and I know at the moment things are ok and I know we will have blips, but I am so glad and grateful that I have you ladies to share things with, we're here to help and support each other, it's sad we have our beloved cats that are suffering and going through this horrible disease  but without you all I think I would have lost it a long time ago.
> 
> Roman is still doing ok  I'm still waiting on a call from Patricia, but understand she's busy.
> 
> I've invested in 2 microchip feeders for Frank and Seb as they've been refusing to eat the skippy  been testing the out while I'm at home and making sure Roman cannot get to their food. It's going ok. There is a switch underneath that has 3 settings for the lid to close at different speeds when they move away, it was on the slowest setting and Roman could easily get to the food, now moved on the the fastest setting, Roman can't get the food, Frank and Seb haven't got used to it yet but I'm sure they will soon enough. Once they're used to it and I'm confident and happy that Roman can't get their food they can use it all the time. Roman has been sitting next to it pawing at the see through lid thinking he can touch the food
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


It is indeed a long road and yes we will all get to ok street!

Riley seems brighter today, tho he didn't want to help me clear out the shed today as it was raining  so gave me orders from the window 

Held off on the a'bs so far as his routine is a bit out of syncs and I know he he poo's earlier than he did the previous day he will have issues (I have no idea why at all) today so far so good, given 100g of ostruch, vc only do is in 200 g tins so not ideal for another food, plus it could be stopped any time due to supply. So am only giving 100g a day to complemnent skippy and riley seems quite happy with that, although the meal after he has had ostrich he does look at me to say..uhm is this is?



Vienna1 said:


> Nicola sorry to hear Riley has had a blip hope he's feeling better now.
> 
> This really is a miserable disease for them and their humans.


It sure is!! Blips are better than flare ups and I can cope with a blip as long as his weight is stable and his liver remains ok!



Forester said:


> Vienna, its great news that your vet was pleased with Monty's progress. He must have seen other cases similar to Monty so is an ideal person to judge progress.
> 
> The weight maintenance has to be progress despite being with the aid of a tube. It shows that his body is obtaining nutrition from the food.
> 
> I understand completely how you feel at each setback. It feels like you're caught in a downward spiral with no escape. I truly hope that you will soon see progress to lift your spirits.
> 
> I read earlier today of another kitty who was totally refusing to eat on chlorambucil. The vet had said that it was quite normal and was prepared to tube feed for the entire course. It sounds as though Monty's appetite will recover when the drug course is over.
> 
> How is he now and how did you cope at work.?
> 
> The hula hoops and rice crispies will be greatfuly tested. May I ask which brand and model each one is so that I will know what we've tried. I won't try adding milk to listen for the snap, crackle, pop. OH and I decided to day that we need to try dry now. Dylan had had his worst ever day today. I'm so glad that I did not feed Mickey because he would otherwise be getting the blame.
> 
> How has Emu been received Nicola. Fingers crossed that the metronidazole is not needed but its good to know that its available if necessary.
> 
> It does sound as though Monty *is *doing well. Please try not to worry about having to tube feed. It does mean that he is getting the nutrition he needs.
> 
> Sending positive vibes to all, hoping that tomorrow will be a better day for everyone.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I officially shouldn't be here. My vet says that no diagnosis has been made for Dylan as all tests have failed to show a cause for his vomiting. I mentioned IBD to which she said " its just vomiting "


"Just"  this one for your vet :dita:

Are you still keeping a food/vomit diary? As in religiously?


----------



## Vienna1

Wonder if its the iPad I can't quote at all the last few days! 

Very quick post doodle needs fed so must go prepare his feed. 

He looked so Unwell last night and this morning I felt terrible going leaving him it seems like the Chlorambucil affected him earlier this week although this time last week he was in hospital so I'm wondering what we put down to the after effects of the GA may not have been after all as he's been fine after them in the past. 

When I got home he'd wet himself and his bloomers were soaking wet, got him all cleaned up and clean bedding for him then looked in the litter tray to find an huge solid poo  so proud of him when I saw it was solid! I'm confused by the wetting himself though trying to decide between stress from being caged or the Chlorambucil. I must look to see if its a side effect as he was doing the same last week then stopped and was using the tray fine. He's now in a donut on the bottom of our bed fast asleep. I stuck a mattress pad on just in case. I had put him back in the cage as I'd been downstairs and when I came up I said Monty doodle and he stood straight up waiting at the door. 

Sarah and Sylv thank you for those posts that I can't quote I cried when I read them, it helps knowing we are not alone going through this. 

Sylv I've got lots of dry food you can try 

Rice crispies aka purina HA
Hula Hoop RC Digestive comfort ( this one says something about them being less likely to bring it back up! 
RC sensible 
RC Exigent 
RC extreme hairball 
Burns chicken and brown rice
Rc gastro intestinal wet and dry vet food 
Just let me know which ones you'd like and I'll send you some.

I'll check back later to see how everyone is doing, off to feed my little dude.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> . When are you going to introduce the dry? What one are you going try Dyl with?
> 
> by what your vets said  I'm no vet but wouldn't class it as just vomiting, there's a reason for everything
> 
> xx





nicolaa123 said:


> It is indeed a long road and yes we will all get to ok street!
> 
> Riley seems brighter today, tho he didn't want to help me clear out the shed today as it was raining  so gave me orders from the window :
> 
> It sure is!! Blips are better than flare ups and I can cope with a blip as long as his weight is stable and his liver remains ok!
> 
> "Just"  this one for your vet :dita:
> 
> Are you still keeping a food/vomit diary? As in religiously?


Its *definitely not just vomiting *from here either. To be fair to her she was saying that they wouldn't include the enema and consult as part of another insurance claim as she says that its not the same condition, despite me pointing out that the digestive tract is all connected. The claim is for " vomiting"..

Yes, I'm still doing the diary ( religiously )and still have 11 months results illustrated on a year plan. My personal diary is one long vomiting record 

Poor Dilly is feeling very sorry for himself today, as am I ( sorry for him , not me ).I really do not know what to do for the best. I've considered using another vet practice though mine is meant to be the best in the area, have the best facilities and do their own OOH. The vet I see is the " general " not a foot soldier. 
What I will do if a dry diet doesn't help I have no idea. He's been having raw chicken today so that's obviously not a good idea. 
I read and printed off ( intending to take to my vet ) an article about a " wonderfully successful " product for vomiting or dire rear in cats and dogs. It turns out that its SEB ( sorry Sarah  ) I then tried to hide some SEB in some pumpkin. Dylan wouldn't go within 3 feet of it. Just an idea ( desperate ). Do you think that it would help his stomach, intestines if I put it in gel caps?. O K It wouldn't work on his gullet ( can't spell oesophagi..... )but stomach and intestines has to be better than nothing.

I'm glad that Riley's feeling a bit better and has been supervising you .Lets hope that the blip is on its way out.



Vienna1 said:


> Wonder if its the iPad I can't quote at all the last few days!
> 
> Very quick post doodle needs fed so must go prepare his feed.
> 
> He looked so Unwell last night and this morning I felt terrible going leaving him it seems like the Chlorambucil affected him earlier this week although this time last week he was in hospital so I'm wondering what we put down to the after effects of the GA may not have been after all as he's been fine after them in the past.
> 
> When I got home he'd wet himself and his bloomers were soaking wet, got him all cleaned up and clean bedding for him then looked in the litter tray to find an huge solid poo  so proud of him when I saw it was solid! I'm confused by the wetting himself though trying to decide between stress from being caged or the Chlorambucil. I must look to see if its a side effect as he was doing the same last week then stopped and was using the tray fine. He's now in a donut on the bottom of our bed fast asleep. I stuck a mattress pad on just in case. I had put him back in the cage as I'd been downstairs and when I came up I said Monty doodle and he stood straight up waiting at the door.
> 
> Sarah and Sylv thank you for those posts that I can't quote I cried when I read them, it helps knowing we are not alone going through this.
> 
> Sylv I've got lots of dry food you can try
> 
> Rice crispies aka purina HA
> Hula Hoop RC Digestive comfort ( this one says something about them being less likely to bring it back up!
> RC sensible
> RC Exigent
> RC extreme hairball
> Burns chicken and brown rice
> Rc gastro intestinal wet and dry vet food
> Just let me know which ones you'd like and I'll send you some.
> 
> I'll check back later to see how everyone is doing, off to feed my little dude.


Poor Monty, just reading your post has reduced me to tears for him and you. Being unable to help you feels almost as bad as being unable to help Dylan. I just wish that there was something I could do to help.

I'd definitely like to try the rice crispies . Anything else I will leave up to you. Does anything else dry have a protein base other than chicken? I think that I've pretty much tried most of the wet.

Sarah, I'll be trying the dry when I have some. I *almost*went to the vets on Sat am to return the d/d wet and see whether they have z/d dry. It seemed a bit daft to spend £20 on something which may only be fed for a day or two , if that. The most recent foods I've tried have brought about an instant ( 5 mins later ) bad reaction.

Sending ( Hugs ) to all slaves and positive vibes and virtual cuddles to all masters and mistresses.


----------



## sarahecp

I think the random not being able to quote could be an Apple issue!

Nicola, I'm pleased Riley is brighter today  and dishing out his orders from the window to his slave  


Den, Oh bless Monty, not sure if it's a side affect from the chlorambucil but could be more down to him feeling stressed about being in the cage. I'm so pleased he's had a firm poo :thumbup: topping up the positive and good vibes and hoping he will 'get there' really soon. 


Sylv, regarding the enema and consult, can you ask the person at your vets that deals with the admin/insurance claims to add that to the 'vomiting' claim form? And see what they say, I know the vet needs to sign it but worth seeing what happens, to me it is all linked. I need to put a claim in for Frank's dental and another for Roman's meds and bloods, he's at the vets again tomorrow for more bloods, that has come round quick 

Will your vets give you a small amount of dry to try? 

Would it be worth seeing another vet at your practice to see what they think about Dyl? Or you could still register with another vet and see what they think. 


xxx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Sylv, regarding the enema and consult, can you ask the person at your vets that deals with the admin/insurance claims to add that to the 'vomiting' claim form? And see what they say, I know the vet needs to sign it but worth seeing what happens, to me it is all linked. I need to put a claim in for Frank's dental and another for Roman's meds and bloods, he's at the vets again tomorrow for more bloods, that has come round quick
> I'm not that bothered about the insurance. I'd pay anything if only they could help him.
> Will your vets give you a little to try?
> [No chance. I know that I could take it back but I don't really like doing that. For some reason I feel as if I've done something wrong if I do.
> 
> Would it be worth seeing another vet at your practice to see what they think about Dyl?
> 
> I've thought about it numerous times . Just wonder if they would just think that the " boss" has dealt with this so everything must have been covered.
> 
> Or you could still register with another vet and see what they think.
> 
> Its being considered xxx


I've tried to reply within the post as I don't know how to multiquote from the same post.


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, regarding the enema and consult, can you ask the person at your vets that deals with the admin/insurance claims to add that to the 'vomiting' claim form? And see what they say, I know the vet needs to sign it but worth seeing what happens, to me it is all linked. I need to put a claim in for Frank's dental and another for Roman's meds and bloods, he's at the vets again tomorrow for more bloods, that has come round quick 
I'm not that bothered about the insurance. I'd pay anything if only they could help him.
Will your vets give you a little to try?
[No chance. I know that I could take it back but I don't really like doing that. For some reason I feel as if I've done something wrong if I do.

Would it be worth seeing another vet at your practice to see what they think about Dyl?

I've thought about it numerous times . Just wonder if they would just think that the " boss" has dealt with this so everything must have been covered.

Or you could still register with another vet and see what they think. 

Its being considered xxx


Still can't quote but can copy and paste  

I'm glad you're considering it  Think it may be a good idea xx


----------



## buffie

Have been reading guys,honestly,but just havnt been posting as this "being in denial" is keeping me sane at the minute.
A couple of things have prompted me though,
Firstly to all who are having "off days" I send many positive vibes for your furbies,
Sylv,sorry to say this but I would be bl**dy angry with my vet if he dared to say "its vomiting",no it bl**dy is not,something is causing it.
As for not including the enema and consult that is BS IMO.
When the referral vet picked up the blood in Meeko's urine it was included as were all the u/s tests later + the xrays/bladder investigations which were also done in the name of "IBD"
Hope all furbabes are soon up and running on all cylinders.
Don't know if "ignoring IBD" is making a difference but Meeko is doing as well as he has for a long time now,still having " returns" but seems well in between,poss not eating as much as I would like but other than that,paws crossed.


----------



## Vienna1

Forester said:


> Its *definitely not just vomiting *from here either. To be fair to her she was saying that they wouldn't include the enema and consult as part of another insurance claim as she says that its not the same condition, despite me pointing out that the digestive tract is all connected. The claim is for " vomiting"..
> 
> Yes, I'm still doing the diary ( religiously )and still have 11 months results illustrated on a year plan. My personal diary is one long vomiting record
> 
> Poor Dilly is feeling very sorry for himself today, as am I ( sorry for him , not me ).I really do not know what to do for the best. I've considered using another vet practice though mine is meant to be the best in the area, have the best facilities and do their own OOH. The vet I see is the " general " not a foot soldier.
> What I will do if a dry diet doesn't help I have no idea. He's been having raw chicken today so that's obviously not a good idea.
> I read and printed off ( intending to take to my vet ) an article about a " wonderfully successful " product for vomiting or dire rear in cats and dogs. It turns out that its SEB ( sorry Sarah  ) I then tried to hide some SEB in some pumpkin. Dylan wouldn't go within 3 feet of it. Just an idea ( desperate ). Do you think that it would help his stomach, intestines if I put it in gel caps?. O K It wouldn't work on his gullet ( can't spell oesophagi..... )but stomach and intestines has to be better than nothing.
> 
> I'm glad that Riley's feeling a bit better and has been supervising you .Lets hope that the blip is on its way out.
> 
> Poor Monty, just reading your post has reduced me to tears for him and you. Being unable to help you feels almost as bad as being unable to help Dylan. I just wish that there was something I could do to help.
> 
> I'd definitely like to try the rice crispies . Anything else I will leave up to you. Does anything else dry have a protein base other than chicken? I think that I've pretty much tried most of the wet.
> 
> Sarah, I'll be trying the dry when I have some. I *almost*went to the vets on Sat am to return the d/d wet and see whether they have z/d dry. It seemed a bit daft to spend £20 on something which may only be fed for a day or two , if that. The most recent foods I've tried have brought about an instant ( 5 mins later ) bad reaction.
> 
> Sending ( Hugs ) to all slaves and positive vibes and virtual cuddles to all masters and mistresses.


Now that's odd I'm on the iPad and its letting me quote now!

Sylv I'll get that dry food sorted and sent off today. I've just remembered I ordered some grain free trial foods from zooplus last week I think a couple were fish I'll check the ingredients. The rc doesn't state what the protein base is that I can see. Obviuosly I've come to this a lot later than all of you so missed everything you have all tried along the way but just wondered have you tried something like convalescence support when he's really struggling? I think its egg based I seem to remember being told that. Its not a long term solution but in the short term its a complete feed.

Monty has had the same reaction as last week he can barely lift his head again, its heartbreaking seeing him like this. Just don't know what to do, feel so helpless. I've rang the vets to ask for a call back I need to ask if there is anything he can be given counteract the nausea he's struggling when we feed him.


----------



## nicolaa123

Riley has had an injection before for when he was constantly feeling sick and also some syrup stuff. The injection was great and worked straight away, but it was a really thick one :-(


----------



## Vienna1

nicolaa123 said:


> Riley has had an injection before for when he was constantly feeling sick and also some syrup stuff. The injection was great and worked straight away, but it was a really thick one :-(


Thank you Nicola that gives me hope that they can at least help with that perhaps. His vet is doing tutorials this morning I believe so hopefully he'll be given the message to ring sometime today.

Looking at the state he was in last night makes me realise it wasn't the anaesthetic last week it was the Leukeran. He couldn't even support his own head. He's asleep now but no doubt he will wake up when he wets himself poor boy.


----------



## sarahecp

Hello all 

Buffie, pleased to hear Meeko is doing well   

Come on Meeko eat a bit more 


Den, poor Monty  Hopefully your vet can give him something for him feeling sick. 

Sending lots more positive vibes. 


I've spoken to Patricia, we're reducing the Pred from 5mg every other day to 2.5mg every other day, chlorambucil to stay the same. Need to update her in 4 weeks, we'll talk about his progress on the reduced dose, if all ok then he'll be coming off of it 

We're off to our second home later this afternoon for his monthly blood tests. 


Hope everyone else is doing ok today and Dyl is vomit free. 

xx


----------



## Vienna1

Well been to the vets again! I walk in the door and they say its Monty isn't it. 

He's had an anti nausea injection poor little thing as frothing at the mouth earlier. He's also had his neck cleaned up and another stitch put in and an iodine soaked pad put over it. He's home now in his cage resting. He was weighed and hasn't lost anymore weight. I asked how long he would expect him to be on the Leukeran and he said he just wants to see him turn a corner and out a little weight back on then he's happy to withdraw that. Now I just need to get my head around some comments someone made to me saying I shouldn't be putting him through this. As if things are not bad enough.


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Hello all
> 
> Buffie, pleased to hear Meeko is doing well
> 
> Come on Meeko eat a bit more
> 
> Den, poor Monty  Hopefully your vet can give him something for him feeling sick.
> 
> Sending lots more positive vibes.
> 
> I've spoken to Patricia, we're reducing the Pred from 5mg every other day to 2.5mg every other day, chlorambucil to stay the same. Need to update her in 4 weeks, we'll talk about his progress on the reduced dose, if all ok then he'll be coming off of it
> 
> We're off to our second home later this afternoon for his monthly blood tests.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok today and Dyl is vomit free.
> 
> xx


That's great news. Everything crossed it all goes to plan.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Well been to the vets again! I walk in the door and they say its Monty isn't it.
> 
> He's had an anti nausea injection poor little thing as frothing at the mouth earlier. He's also had his neck cleaned up and another stitch put in and an iodine soaked pad put over it. He's home now in his cage resting. He was weighed and hasn't lost anymore weight. I asked how long he would expect him to be on the Leukeran and he said he just wants to see him turn a corner and out a little weight back on then he's happy to withdraw that. Now I just need to get my head around some comments someone made to me saying I shouldn't be putting him through this. As if things are not bad enough.


Oooo I can quote :thumbup:

Sounds like me when we go  

Oh bless him  I'm so glad Monty hasn't lost any weight :thumbup: fingers crossed the jab does the trick and he's feeling better in himself in no time. Once he's starts to feel a bit better you will too 

How dare they say that   you're not putting him through anything, you and your vet are doing what's needed to be done to make him better and doing the best for him. You are doing what any loving caring owner would do and no one could love and care for Monty like you do. xx


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> That's great news. Everything crossed it all goes to plan.


Thank you  xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Hello all
> 
> Buffie, pleased to hear Meeko is doing well
> 
> Come on Meeko eat a bit more
> 
> Den, poor Monty  Hopefully your vet can give him something for him feeling sick.
> 
> Sending lots more positive vibes.
> 
> I've spoken to Patricia, we're reducing the Pred from 5mg every other day to 2.5mg every other day, chlorambucil to stay the same. Need to update her in 4 weeks, we'll talk about his progress on the reduced dose, if all ok then he'll be coming off of it
> 
> We're off to our second home later this afternoon for his monthly blood tests.
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok today and Dyl is vomit free.
> 
> xx


Sarah good to read the news on reduction of the pred,hope the b/s is okay xx


----------



## buffie

Vienna1 said:


> Well been to the vets again! I walk in the door and they say its Monty isn't it.
> 
> He's had an anti nausea injection poor little thing as frothing at the mouth earlier. He's also had his neck cleaned up and another stitch put in and an iodine soaked pad put over it. He's home now in his cage resting. He was weighed and hasn't lost anymore weight. I asked how long he would expect him to be on the Leukeran and he said he just wants to see him turn a corner and out a little weight back on then he's happy to withdraw that. Now I just need to get my head around some comments someone made to me saying I shouldn't be putting him through this. As if things are not bad enough.


Hope poor Monty is soon feeling better once the inj kicks in.
As for the unhelpful comments ,ignore them.
What would they rather you did,just not try , some folks really have no idea what it means to care for an animal who is relying on us for help.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Sarah good to read the news on reduction of the pred,hope the b/s is okay xx


Thanks Buffie  xx

Bloods all done for another month. He's such a good boy at the vets, there was a gorgeous black Lab in the waiting room, Roman sat up in his carrier shaking with excitement when he saw him


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Sylv,sorry to say this but I would be bl**dy angry with my vet if he dared to say "its vomiting",no it bl**dy is not,something is causing it.
> As for not including the enema and consult that is BS IMO.
> 
> Don't know if "ignoring IBD" is making a difference but Meeko is doing as well as he has for a long time now,still having " returns" but seems well in between,poss not eating as much as I would like but other than that,paws crossed.


Great news that Meeko is doing well. I always think that how they seem in themselves is equally as important as how often they are displaying symptoms. Keep it up Meeko.

This is the same vet who wouldn't initially give me an antacid as we hadn't established a cause for any excess acid. 

I don't really care about the insurance claim. I just want my boy to be well.



Vienna1 said:


> Sylv I'll get that dry food sorted and sent off today. I've just remembered I ordered some grain free trial foods from zooplus last week I think a couple were fish I'll check the ingredients. The rc doesn't state what the protein base is that I can see. Obviuosly I've come to this a lot later than all of you so missed everything you have all tried along the way but just wondered have you tried something like convalescence support when he's really struggling? I think its egg based I seem to remember being told that. Its not a long term solution but in the short term its a complete feed.
> 
> Monty has had the same reaction as last week he can barely lift his head again, its heartbreaking seeing him like this. Just don't know what to do, feel so helpless. I've rang the vets to ask for a call back I need to ask if there is anything he can be given counteract the nausea he's struggling when we feed him.


Thanks Den . Its brilliant to have foods to try without having to order tons in order to give each one just a short trial. I've been known, more than once, to get 18 cans and then find that its not suitable.

I think that the convalescence support food would be a good idea for almost any of us to fall back on in difficult times. I'm so sorry that you've had the need to come to this thread but another set of ideas can only be helpful for everyone.

Oh poor Monty, It must be so distressing for you to see him so poorly.

Just remember , my girl , you are doing everything that you can for him. You are not ducking out of caring for him because its painful as many would. You are putting yourself through agony in order to help your precious boy. I would probably get banned if I used the words which I would like to use to describe anyone who criticises you for what you are doing. Some people are just heartless, insensitive idiots !

Would Slippery Elm help him with the nausea. Its supposed to coat the digestive tract though you *mustn't *give it at the same time as meds as it would interfere with their absortion.



Vienna1 said:


> Well been to the vets again! I walk in the door and they say its Monty isn't it.
> 
> He's had an anti nausea injection poor little thing as frothing at the mouth earlier. He's also had his neck cleaned up and another stitch put in and an iodine soaked pad put over it. He's home now in his cage resting. He was weighed and hasn't lost anymore weight. I asked how long he would expect him to be on the Leukeran and he said he just wants to see him turn a corner and out a little weight back on then he's happy to withdraw that. Now I just need to get my head around some comments someone made to me saying I shouldn't be putting him through this. As if things are not bad enough.


See comment above.



buffie said:


> Hope poor Monty is soon feeling better once the inj kicks in.
> As for the unhelpful comments ,ignore them.
> What would they rather you did,just not try , some folks really have no idea what it means to care for an animal who is relying on us for help.


Well said !



sarahecp said:


> Thanks Buffie  xx
> 
> Bloods all done for another month. He's such a good boy at the vets, there was a gorgeous black Lab in the waiting room, Roman sat up in his carrier shaking with excitement when he saw him


Oooh , I bet that was a lovely sight. I mean Roman :001_wub:, not the lab although I do love labs too.

Well girls, I've been thinking a lot again and true to form I've changed my plan. I was researching other vets when something occurred to me . I now feel ashamed and largely responsible for Dylan's recent decline.   

Its not surprising that the poor boy is having problems. He has a sensitive stomach yet , in the last few weeks I've given him :- RCSC with and without Slippery Elm and PKE, rabbit with and without SEB and PKE, lamb, cooked chicken ( with and without SEB, PKE and pumpkin ), part cooked chicken ( with and without etc ), raw chicken ( with and without SEB, PKE and pumpkin ) , added Felini, Hi Life tuna, Hills d/d and, a few pieces of Thrive dry. That's not counting Mickey who was thrown to him and then removed as he was about to be eaten. 
I've realised that the poor boy probably hasn't had the same food for 2 days running. Some of the additives he hates ( SEB ) he must be stressed to the hilt. To make matters worse I've been watching him like a hawk for signs that he's going to be sick.

I've plugged Feliway in again, bought some Rescue Remedy ( can't do any harm ) and put him back on exclusively RCSC as its the only complete food. The plan is to aim to see how he goes for a month to see if stability helps. If he's awful I'll have to rethink. He was so , so good around Christmas on just rabbit. The problems only started when I tried to make it complete and to add more fibre to prevent constipation. I can't feed just rabbit as we don't want any more enema's. Pooping in his basket can't have helped him to relax either.

Today he has been much happier which I put down to the Feliway. I've never smelt it before but I can smell it now. He hasn't been sick since 5pm yesterday.

What do you think , ladies.?

Maybe I caused all of the problems in the first place. I never used to feed the came brand/ flavour for 2 cans in a row .


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Great news that Meeko is doing well. I always think that how they seem in themselves is equally as important as how often they are displaying symptoms. Keep it up Meeko.
> 
> This is the same vet who wouldn't initially give me an antacid as we hadn't established a cause for any excess acid.
> 
> I don't really care about the insurance claim. I just want my boy to be well.
> 
> Thanks Den . Its brilliant to have foods to try without having to order tons in order to give each one just a short trial. I've been known, more than once, to get 18 cans and then find that its not suitable.
> 
> I think that the convalescence support food would be a good idea for almost any of us to fall back on in difficult times. I'm so sorry that you've had the need to come to this thread but another set of ideas can only be helpful for everyone.
> 
> Oh poor Monty, It must be so distressing for you to see him so poorly.
> 
> Just remember , my girl , you are doing everything that you can for him. You are not ducking out of caring for him because its painful as many would. You are putting yourself through agony in order to help your precious boy. I would probably get banned if I used the words which I would like to use to describe anyone who criticises you for what you are doing. Some people are just heartless, insensitive idiots !
> 
> Would Slippery Elm help him with the nausea. Its supposed to coat the digestive tract though you *mustn't *give it at the same time as meds as it would interfere with their absortion.
> 
> See comment above.
> 
> Well said !
> 
> Oooh , I bet that was a lovely sight. I mean Roman :001_wub:, not the lab although I do love labs too.
> 
> Well girls, I've been thinking a lot again and true to form I've changed my plan. I was researching other vets when something occurred to me . I now feel ashamed and largely responsible for Dylan's recent decline.
> 
> Its not surprising that the poor boy is having problems. He has a sensitive stomach yet , in the last few weeks I've given him :- RCSC with and without Slippery Elm and PKE, rabbit with and without SEB and PKE, lamb, cooked chicken ( with and without SEB, PKE and pumpkin ), part cooked chicken ( with and without etc ), raw chicken ( with and without SEB, PKE and pumpkin ) , added Felini, Hi Life tuna, Hills d/d and, a few pieces of Thrive dry. That's not counting Mickey who was thrown to him and then removed as he was about to be eaten.
> I've realised that the poor boy probably hasn't had the same food for 2 days running. Some of the additives he hates ( SEB ) he must be stressed to the hilt. To make matters worse I've been watching him like a hawk for signs that he's going to be sick.
> 
> I've plugged Feliway in again, bought some Rescue Remedy ( can't do any harm ) and put him back on exclusively RCSC as its the only complete food. The plan is to aim to see how he goes for a month to see if stability helps. If he's awful I'll have to rethink. He was so , so good around Christmas on just rabbit. The problems only started when I tried to make it complete and to add more fibre to prevent constipation. I can't feed just rabbit as we don't want any more enema's. Pooping in his basket can't have helped him to relax either.
> 
> Today he has been much happier which I put down to the Feliway. I've never smelt it before but I can smell it now. He hasn't been sick since 5pm yesterday.
> 
> What do you think , ladies.?
> 
> Maybe I caused all of the problems in the first place. I never used to feed the came brand/ flavour for 2 cans in a row .


I very much doubt that you have cause any of the problems..you are trying to find a stable food to keep him on and that requires chnage..so no don't blame yourself at all!
Personally I would look for another vet as I feel you are not getting enough support from your current one..even a referal to a nutrition expert would be good..


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I very much doubt that you have cause any of the problems..you are trying to find a stable food to keep him on and that requires chnage..so no don't blame yourself at all!
> Personally I would look for another vet as I feel you are not getting enough support from your current one..even a referal to a nutrition expert would be good..


Thanks  . Maybe not caused but I don't think that I've helped.

I was researching vets at 2am this morning and found one I really liked the sound of. Sadly he only does 2 days per week in this area so that's no good. He's about 40 miles away the rest of the week.

Is it possible to get a referral to a feline nutritionist ?


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Thanks  . Maybe not caused but I don't think that I've helped.
> 
> I was researching vets at 2am this morning and found one I really liked the sound of. Sadly he only does 2 days per week in this area so that's no good. He's about 40 miles away the rest of the week.
> 
> Is it possible to get a referral to a feline nutritionist ?


I don't think that you have made any things worse, he is was doing great on the food he was on then you wouldn't have changed the food.......

There must be a nutrition expert some where..


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I very much doubt that you have cause any of the problems..you are trying to find a stable food to keep him on and that requires chnage..so no don't blame yourself at all!
> Personally I would look for another vet as I feel you are not getting enough support from your current one..even a referal to a nutrition expert would be good..


What Nicola said


----------



## sarahecp

Thought I would try and help  so googled pet nutrition experts in your area and google isn't playing ball, I got the likes of Hills, RC and Mars or I'm not searching the correct wording


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> What Nicola said


Thanks, Sarah


----------



## buffie

Agree with Sarah and Nicola,of course you havnt made things worse,also agree that finding another vet may be the best thing to do.
It must make things so much more difficult if you don't feel you have the support of your vet.
Do you have any "cat clinics"near you.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thought I would try and help  so googled pet nutrition experts in your area and google isn't playing ball, I got the likes of Hills, RC and Mars or I'm not searching the correct wording


What a wonderful helpful person you are  , as is Nicola with all of her food searches  Its a beautiful area but doesn't really " fit " anywhere. SW, S Wales, W Midlands. We don't really clearly belong to any of them . 
It doesn't help that I only drive on quiet, rural roads. 

I've had a quick search for nutritional advice in the past and couldn't find anything.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Agree with Sarah and Nicola,of course you havnt made things worse,also agree that finding another vet may be the best thing to do.
> It must make things so much more difficult if you don't feel you have the support of your vet.
> Do you have any "cat clinics"near you.


Thanks. ( smiley )

Sadly, no cat clinics that I've found.

I've thought of changing vets several times but I'm at the practice with the best facilities, good reputation, own OOH etc.

I do have one practice that I was thinking of visiting to check out .Unfortunately their OOH , and possibly surgery, is dealt with at their " main " branch which is 20 miles away involving a really busy roundabout.

I have a couple of friends who moved practices but ended up moving back again.


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Thanks. ( smiley )
> 
> Sadly, no cat clinics that I've found.
> 
> I've thought of changing vets several times but I'm at the practice with the best facilities, good reputation, own OOH etc.
> 
> I do have one practice that I was thinking of visiting to check out .Unfortunately their OOH , and possibly surgery, is dealt with at their " main " branch which is 20 miles away involving a really busy roundabout.
> 
> I have a couple of friends who moved practices but ended up moving back again.


Your vets shoud have a vet referral practise they refer patients too..could you call and ask who they are..then we can research them!!


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Your vets shoud have a vet referral practise they refer patients too..could you call and ask who they are..then we can research them!!


I'll PM you


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Thanks. ( smiley )
> 
> Sadly, no cat clinics that I've found.
> 
> I've thought of changing vets several times but I'm at the practice with the best facilities, good reputation, own OOH etc.
> 
> I do have one practice that I was thinking of visiting to check out .Unfortunately their OOH , and possibly surgery, is dealt with at their " main " branch which is 20 miles away involving a really busy roundabout.
> 
> I have a couple of friends who moved practices but ended up moving back again.


That is a pity,the only other thing I can think of is that you ask your vet to refer you to a specialist,but don't know if you will have one close to you though.
Often it only needs one visit to a specialist as they can often send their findings to your vet for further treatment .


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> That is a pity,the only other thing I can think of is that you ask your vet to refer you to a specialist,but don't know if you will have one close to you though.
> Often it only needs one visit to a specialist as they can often send their findings to your vet for further treatment .


I've been researching this myself as in an ideal situation its what I would do . Unfortunately there is nowhere which is practical to get to . The option I would choose is Langfords, Bristol but its 4 hours away on public transport. Personal circumstances make it almost impossible to be away for any time at all.


----------



## sarahecp

Just a thought - what about if you gave Langfords a call, explain about Dyl, your situation of not being able to get there and see if they can recommend someone closer to home.


----------



## Vienna1

Now I can't get into private messages! Technology gone mad! 

Sylv there is a parcel on its way for Dylan from Monty hope something helps, I've wrote on each bag what each one is and also sent a pack of the convalescent support. When you make it up I'd just weigh some out rather than make the whole pack as it only keeps 24 hours once made up. This is what Monty is being fed on exclusively at the minute but I've used it for years I always have some in as I've found when they've been sick with a furball and can't eat even 5ml of that stops the retching. It doesn't smell very appetising but ours love it the little ones line up when we make Monty's waiting for a little as a treat. 

Monty seems more comfortable this morning, and has his back leg stretched out hanging out the back of his bed, he loves to lie like that so I'm guessing he must feel a little better to be doing that. 

Hope everyone doing well today no blips or flare ups just happy cats and humans


----------



## sarahecp

I'm pleased to hear that Monty is more comfortable this morning   sounds like he's feeling a bit better and more relaxed   

Topping up the vibes and hope he continues to feel better xx


Hope everyone else is doing ok today xx


Roman was fine this morning when I left, I'm on a training course in Reading today so hoping the M4 traffic is kind to me on my way home. 

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Just a thought - what about if you gave Langfords a call, explain about Dyl, your situation of not being able to get there and see if they can recommend someone closer to home.


Next time I go to my vets I'm going to ask to see one of the , more recently qualified, vets to see whether they have any other ideas. I will also ask who they refer to for GI issues.



Vienna1 said:


> Now I can't get into private messages! Technology gone mad!
> 
> Sylv there is a parcel on its way for Dylan from Monty hope something helps, I've wrote on each bag what each one is and also sent a pack of the convalescent support. When you make it up I'd just weigh some out rather than make the whole pack as it only keeps 24 hours once made up. This is what Monty is being fed on exclusively at the minute but I've used it for years I always have some in as I've found when they've been sick with a furball and can't eat even 5ml of that stops the retching. It doesn't smell very appetising but ours love it the little ones line up when we make Monty's waiting for a little as a treat.
> 
> Monty seems more comfortable this morning, and has his back leg stretched out hanging out the back of his bed, he loves to lie like that so I'm guessing he must feel a little better to be doing that.
> 
> Hope everyone doing well today no blips or flare ups just happy cats and humans


Its fantastic news that Monty looks more comfortable. I think that a good stretch is definitely a good sign.Perhaps his improved nutrition is helping his body to cope better with the meds. I do hope so.

Dylan would like to thank Monty for his generosity. . He says " Get well and strong soon Monty , then you can run rings around your Slave and she will be only too happy to let you do exactly as you want. "

Den, I do hope that you haven't deprived Monty of valuable supplies. I only volunteered for " cast offs "



sarahecp said:


> I'm pleased to hear that Monty is more comfortable this morning   sounds like he's feeling a bit better and more relaxed
> 
> Topping up the vibes and hope he continues to feel better xx
> 
> Hope everyone else is doing ok today xx
> 
> Roman was fine this morning when I left, I'm on a training course in Reading today so hoping the M4 traffic is kind to me on my way home.
> 
> xx


Keep up the good work Roman. Are you using the feeders for Seb and Frank today, Sarah ? I'd love to see them in action .

Nicola, I hope that Riley is still supervising you to his satisfaction and is over his blip. Perhaps he will allow you on his sofa if you promise to do as he demands.

Dyl has had another puke free day today so far though hasn't eaten much. I've had workmen in today so he hasn't been as happy and relaxed as yesterday. Hopefully there won't be repercussions later.

Sending eating vibes for Monty and Meeko as well as hopes for solid poo and no returns for everyone.


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, I think that's a good idea to ask to see one of the other vets 

Frank and Seb are not being very cooperative with the feeders  so still just using them while I'm at home, hopefully they'll get used to them soon.

I'll try to film them in action, and then try to work out how to post a vid  

So pleased to hear all's going well with Dyl, keep it up young man :thumbup: 

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Sylv, I think that's a good idea to ask to see one of the other vets
> 
> I've been considering it for ages
> 
> Frank and Seb are not being very cooperative with the feeders  so still just using them while I'm at home, hopefully they'll get used to them soon.
> 
> That's a shame after you've invested in them. I'm sure that the " penny will drop " before long.
> 
> I'll try to film them in action, and then try to work out how to post a vid
> 
> 
> That would be brilliant. I'd love to see your handsome boys and I'm sure that everyone else would too .
> 
> So pleased to hear all's going well with Dyl, keep it up young man :thumbup:
> 
> Dylan has spent an hour in raptures kneading my fleecy dressing gown ( he always does it when I've had a bath ) and has finally decided to eat.xx


I hope that everyone has had a good day with their fur babies today. How is Monty doing now, Den ?


----------



## sarahecp

The penny best drop soon, I spent enough pennies on them  


Awww bless Dyl :001_wub: and sooo glad he's eating :thumbup:

xx


----------



## lazydays

I'm so very sorry to have to tell you all that the beautiful Monty has passed away. 
Unfortunately he went drastically downhill early this afternoon and went straight to the vets who did everything they could until a short time ago. He had the best specialist vet care and everything that could be done had been done but the poor boy's body had just become too weak to fight the many complications that arose.

We are all absolutely heartbroken, he was only 4 years old. We can only be thankful that his illness was short and he is now free from pain and suffering.

Thankyou to all of you who have been so supportive to Denise & family through these devastating few weeks, she will check in when she is up to it but as you can imagine is in no state to do so at the moment.

Have fun with your friends at the bridge gorgeous Monty Doodle.


----------



## sarahecp

lazydays said:


> I'm so very sorry to have to tell you all that the beautiful Monty has passed away.
> Unfortunately he went drastically downhill early this afternoon and went straight to the vets who did everything they could until a short time ago. He had the best specialist vet care and everything that could be done had been done but the poor boy's body had just become too weak to fight the many complications that arose.
> 
> We are all absolutely heartbroken, he was only 4 years old. We can only be thankful that his illness was short and he is now free from pain and suffering.
> 
> Thankyou to all of you who have been so supportive to Denise & family through these devastating few weeks, she will check in when she is up to it but as you can imagine is in no state to do so at the moment.
> 
> Have fun with your friends at the bridge gorgeous Monty Doodle.


Oh Sarah, this is heartbreaking news :crying: I'm so so sorry  and thank you for letting us know, I understand Den not being in any state to come on here 

Please pass on my condolences to Den and family and let them know we are thinking of them xx xx

RIP beautiful Monty, run free chasing butterflies xx xx


----------



## Forester

Oh No ! 

I am so so sorry to hear of Monty's passing. Poor Den must be devastated. My heart goes out to her.


RIP Monty Doodle . Sweet, gorgeous, boy.


----------



## lazydays

She is heartbroken, I haven't spoken to her much as it was only around 9pm he passed. It's such a shock, although he was very poorly he had picked up before so we had everything crossed he would pick up again 
He will leave a massive hole in their hearts and the house wont be the same without him but he was a super boy who will also leave lots of lovely memories.


----------



## buffie

So very sad to be reading this  , There are no words that will ease the pain being felt but just want you all to know we are thinking of you.
Run free beautiful Monty,free from pain and chasing the butterflies at Rainbow Bridge xx


----------



## nicolaa123

So sorry to read this, sleep tight little monty xx


----------



## FredsDad

Informative thread!
After 7 years of living with cats our house is empty of all plants, all the household cleaners are all natural & organic where possible, the garden is only grass as they use it when they want to be sick so again is only fed organic seaweed to keep it lush.
We have had to do this because 1 of our toms has really bad skin thanks to being doused in petrol at least twice, vet tried everything he knew with out success so I turned to homeopathic remedies which worked great, homemade aloe vera balm & colloidal silver.
Not a slug killer myself but still don't like them in the house so use salt to stop them, in this modern world the use of chemicals has become far to prevalent.


----------



## jan&harley

Hi, found this thread after coming on here last week very upset and a bit desperate for others to tell me my little boy is going to be ok. Harley went to the vet for annual inoculations and vet found a heart murmur, since then he has seen a cardiologist and she said blood pressure normal, ECG normal, but he has a grossly thickened and stiff left ventricle. Heart muscle measured 6mm which she said was the top end of normal thickness and a mild leaky valve, left atrium was normal but at the top end of normal. He is acting normally, eating normally and is showing no signs of any problems and at this time she has said no medication is required and just to monitor his breathing and watch for lethargy and re scan in 6 months. Now I have calmed down a bit I feel comforted in reading all the cases on here, someone said it's not a life sentence which has made me feel a lot better. 
I am trying just to treat him as normal but must admit I am anxious and keep watching him breathe!


----------



## felinenutritionawareness

jan&harley said:


> Hi, found this thread after coming on here last week very upset and a bit desperate for others to tell me my little boy is going to be ok. Harley went to the vet for annual inoculations and vet found a heart murmur, since then he has seen a cardiologist and she said blood pressure normal, ECG normal, but he has a grossly thickened and stiff left ventricle. Heart muscle measured 6mm which she said was the top end of normal thickness and a mild leaky valve, left atrium was normal but at the top end of normal. He is acting normally, eating normally and is showing no signs of any problems and at this time she has said no medication is required and just to monitor his breathing and watch for lethargy and re scan in 6 months. Now I have calmed down a bit I feel comforted in reading all the cases on here, someone said it's not a life sentence which has made me feel a lot better.
> I am trying just to treat him as normal but must admit I am anxious and keep watching him breathe!


Hi there, Harley will be fine, try not to worry and stress too much as cats pick up on this and then panic themselves.

My cat has a 8mm thick muscle thickness and was diagnosed in 2011 and is on no medication and to be honest the way she behaves you wouldn't know she has a heart condition, she is 6 years old btw. I found that her normal breathing rate is 23 and when she is really relaxed her breathing goes down to 19, I did discuss this with the cardiologist on a recent heart check and the cardiologist said this is fine. The breathing rate needs to remain between 20 and 30 but you may find that because he's had a scan it will be high at the moment, give him a few days to settle back in at home. The best time to do the counts is when they are going to sleep but not asleep if that makes sense. I do my cats breathing counts 2 or 3 times a week, try not to focus on this too much as in counting 4 or 5 times a day as it can then stress you out. The advice you have been given is standard advice, I found that the best thing to do is carry on like normal as panicking will and can cause things to get worse. *Nothing has changed with your cat, your cat is still the same cat*, yes he has a heart condition but this isn't the end of the world, *its excellent news his murmur is graded 3 but you will find as time goes on the murmur can and does go up and down and so does the heart rate (these are the rates the vet and cardiologist do - my cats heart rate and murmur changes each time she is stressed eg each time she sees the vet and her murmur has been 6 and heart rate 200 but then on the next visit the murmur was 3 and heart rate 180 so the vet said to me not to worry about this as the murmur and heart rate will fluctuate with stress). It is also excellent news he doesn't need medication at this stage because this means Harley is able to manage his condition himself. *

The scan in 6 months is to see if his condition is progressing my cats heart condition is the same as when she was diagnosed in 2011, which is good not bad news as it means it isn't progressing.

Relax and carry on as before you found out Harley had HCM, try not to take him to the vets unless you absolutely have to as this will stress him out and regarding the scans I won't have any done unless necessary as this is very stressful for cats, the reason why I keep mentioning stress is because stress can cause cats HCM to progress.

I appreciate alot is going through your mind right now, take a deep breath put Harleys diagnoses to the back of your mind and carry on as if you didn't know, this will help you and him cope with things.

If you have any questions ask away on here I am happy to help or I am sure other members are as well, make an appointment with your vet and say you want a consultation without Harley there to ask any questions.

Final note: HCM is a very common disease with cats and alot of cats live to old age with it. Medication is available when needed but it isn't needed at the moment.

Hope this helps?

Sorry for the long post.


----------



## Vienna1

Hello everyone, 

Its very quiet here hope everyone is doing good. 

I just wanted to pop on and say a huge thank you for all your help and advice throughout Monty's illness and also for your kind wishes last week when we lost him. I can't tell you how much we appreciated the messages and cards we received it really meant so much to us. I'm sorry I haven't replied to the pm's it seems I can read them but not reply 

We got him home yesterday evening so he is now safely with India who we lost 18 months ago, he used to follow her everywhere as a kitten. The hole he has left in our lives is huge we are completely devastated. 

I know you may all want to know exactly what happened and I will share that with you when I can but at the moment I can't bring myself to write it down.

Den xx


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Its very quiet here hope everyone is doing good.
> 
> I just wanted to pop on and say a huge thank you for all your help and advice throughout Monty's illness and also for your kind wishes last week when we lost him. I can't tell you how much we appreciated the messages and cards we received it really meant so much to us. I'm sorry I haven't replied to the pm's it seems I can read them but not reply
> 
> We got him home yesterday evening so he is now safely with India who we lost 18 months ago, he used to follow her everywhere as a kitten. The hole he has left in our lives is huge we are completely devastated.
> 
> I know you may all want to know exactly what happened and I will share that with you when I can but at the moment I can't bring myself to write it down.
> 
> Den xx


Hi Den,

Lovely to hear from you 

Hope you are well and holding up, it's only very days, it will take time, how much time nobody knows, but remember Monty will always be with you, in your heart and by your side.

I'm glad you have Monty home with you and he can now be with Indie.

You take care and look after yourself.

Lots of love and hugs xxxx


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Its very quiet here hope everyone is doing good.
> 
> I just wanted to pop on and say a huge thank you for all your help and advice throughout Monty's illness and also for your kind wishes last week when we lost him. I can't tell you how much we appreciated the messages and cards we received it really meant so much to us. I'm sorry I haven't replied to the pm's it seems I can read them but not reply
> 
> We got him home yesterday evening so he is now safely with India who we lost 18 months ago, he used to follow her everywhere as a kitten. The hole he has left in our lives is huge we are completely devastated.
> 
> I know you may all want to know exactly what happened and I will share that with you when I can but at the moment I can't bring myself to write it down.
> 
> Den xx


Hi Den,
Its good to see you here ., just hope that you don't find visiting us too painful. I've thought of little other than You, and Monty since his passing. I, for one just haven't felt like posting. Although I've never physically met you, or Monty it feels like I've lost a very close friend. I'm sure that the others feel the same.

I'm so glad that Monty is now with India.

Please take good care of yourself and allow yourself to heal in your own time. We are always here for you if you need us.

Sending love and ((( Hugs )))
Sylv and Dylan


----------



## Forester

deleted, double posted


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

One of my favourite patients is a girl who was diagnosed with HCM some 4-5 years ago. At the time of her diagnosis, she was also asthmatic.

Since then, she's had multiple GAs (for dental work, endoscopy and X-rays), got through pneumonia, and developed hyperthyroidism. At one point she had to be treated with long-term steroids for her asthma - steroids carry a risk of accelerating heart disease - but they had no such effect on her.

She's still going strong, and at her last echo her HCM had not progressed significantly.

Cats are tough little things. Not every case of HCM progresses. TBH, the majority of cats I see with murmurs pass away of something unrelated, usually years down the line.

Please don't make yourself so stressed. Harley will pick up on it, and he needs to carry on leading his normal life and doing his normal stuff or he'll become stressed as well.


----------



## jan&harley

Thank you everyone for replying all very helpful replies. I know I sounded a bit demented but I was so upset initially thinking he was about to have a heart attack and die, I now realize this is not the case and have found a lot of comfort in hearing what everyone else has been through. 

Thanks again xx


----------



## lymorelynn

Please keep this on the topic. If you wish to discuss the use of GM crops etc FredsDad please do it on a separate thread.


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all,

I hope all masters, mistresses and slave are well and behaving themselves 

It's been a bit up and down here over the last week, but I'm hoping things are now sorted. Roman has had a bit of soft poo, I put it down to him stealing Seb's food from the microchip feeder  the feeders are very well made and designed, but not for clever Maine Coons that eat with their paws  lucky I've been here watching and they've not been left alone with them. Seb was eating his food, if he moves away the lid closes instantly, but while Seb was eating Roman put his paw over the side edges and grabbed a pawful  so they're not going to be a good plan and don't think I'll be using them again. He had runnyish poo on Saturday night but It's been much firmer since. I don't think it's the reduced Pred, but I could be wrong, we'll see how things go. 

He has still been his usual loony self and eating well  

Xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Afternoon all,
> 
> I hope all masters, mistresses and slave are well and behaving themselves
> 
> It's been a bit up and down here over the last week, but I'm hoping things are now sorted. Roman has had a bit of soft poo, I put it down to him stealing Seb's food from the microchip feeder  the feeders are very well made and designed, but not for clever Maine Coons that eat with their paws  lucky I've been here watching and they've not been left alone with them. Seb was eating his food, if he moves away the lid closes instantly, but while Seb was eating Roman put his paw over the side edges and grabbed a pawful  so they're not going to be a good plan and don't think I'll be using them again. He had runnyish poo on Saturday night but It's been much firmer since. I don't think it's the reduced Pred, but I could be wrong, we'll see how things go.
> 
> He has still been his usual loony self and eating well
> 
> Xx


Its a real shame to hear that the feeders are not going to be a solution to preventing Roman from getting anyone else's food. He sounds a very bright boy.. I think it sounds more likely that Roman's " softness" is down to eating things he shouldn't than the reduction in pred. Fingers crossed that this is the case.

I think that Dylan's free feeding regime plus Feliway plus RCSC is going quite well. He initially went 10 days without vomiting but has produced twice in the last 3 days. I haven't managed to give him any Rescue Remedy so I've decided to take it myself.  He may be picking up on _my_ stress about the situation. He does seem very much happier than he was.

Sending love and positive vibes to all.


----------



## buffie

Meeko calling  

Sorry to read that Roman has had a bit of a dodgy bott,but I suppose that's what you get for sticking your paws in food that you are not meant to stick paws in 

Good to read that Dylan has had a good long run of vomit free days,shame he had to go and mess it up .Meeko does that too,has a longish run of no vomit and then every couple of days for a week or so and back to long runs vomit free again.I've just accepted that as "what he does".

Meeko is doing okay,looks like he either didn't eat any bin liner or it has yet to make an appearance(hope not  ) since it will be a week tomorrow since he ripped it up.
Hope Riley ,Blue and all other IBD'ers are doing well


----------



## sarahecp

Sounds like Dyl has been doing really well on the new regime  hopefully the blips are just blips (does that actually make sense  ) 

I hope the Rescue Remedy helps, been tempted in the past to try a few drops 


I'm glad Meeko is doing ok  

Oh dear Mr M not another one that has a thing for bin liners, I hope you didn't eat it  

Roman puts his head in the bin liner if I'm not quick enough to take it out to the wheelie bin  always looking for food to steal 

I'm making sure Roman is keeping his paws to himself and his own food  

xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Sounds like Dyl has been doing really well on the new regime  hopefully the blips are just blips (does that actually make sense  )
> 
> I hope the Rescue Remedy helps, been tempted in the past to try a few drops
> 
> I'm glad Meeko is doing ok
> 
> Oh dear Mr M not another one that has a thing for bin liners, I hope you didn't eat it
> 
> Roman puts his head in the bin liner if I'm not quick enough to take it out to the wheelie bin  always looking for food to steal
> 
> I'm making sure Roman is keeping his paws to himself and his own food
> 
> xx


I just found the liner in shreds round the top but it did have bits missing,which may just have been where he pulled at it but I always think the worst so have been on poo/vomit watch since last week :arf:. He has never done it before and how the hell he got hold of it I have no idea.It was in a pedal bin and I always tuck the bag between the bin and the inner container.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> I just found the liner in shreds round the top but it did have bits missing,which may just have been where he pulled at it but I always think the worst so have been on poo/vomit watch since last week :arf:. He has never done it before and how the hell he got hold of it I have no idea.It was in a pedal bin and I always tuck the bag between the bin and the inner container.


Hopefully he just pulled at it and didn't eat it


----------



## Faerie Queene

Hi.
I keep all my house plants in my bedroom and my catz are not allowed in there.
I water the plants in the bath.
Last night I was distracted while putting the plants back in my room.
"Bingo's eating your plants!"
He hadn't eaten any, but he did have Amaryllis pollen on his nose.
Within seconds, he had that queasy look, just before they vomit.
We wiped the pollen off his nose. He was very subdued.
My son looked online for information, while I phoned our Vet.
The Vet put me on hold, while they contacted their 'Poisons Advisor'.
They said that Amaryllis pollen isn't fatal and wouldn't cause kidney damage.
He should be okay, but if he starts to drool or vomit, call us back.
He was 'as right as ninepence' within the hour and back to his normal self.


----------



## Forester

Evening All

I hope that all slaves are O K ,and that masters and mistresses are free from runny botts , returns or hunger strikes . Fingers crossed also that everyone has kept their paws and jaws away from bins and other peoples rations.

All is fine here, vomit free, eating well and lively. I just hope that it lasts. Just off to take my Rescue Remedy 

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Evening All
> 
> I hope that all slaves are O K ,and that masters and mistresses are free from runny botts , returns or hunger strikes . Fingers crossed also that everyone has kept their paws and jaws away from bins and other peoples rations.
> 
> All is fine here, vomit free, eating well and lively. I just hope that it lasts. Just off to take my Rescue Remedy
> 
> love to all


All's ok here  Roman is behaving and keeping his paws in his own food  Seb is acting like he has a bottomless stomach and Frank is getting fussier by the minute 

Glad to hear Dyl is doing well  let's hope it continues 

Is the rescue remedy helping? I think I could do with few drops 

Hope everyone is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> All's ok here  Roman is behaving and keeping his paws in his own food  Seb is acting like he has a bottomless stomach and Frank is getting fussier by the minute
> 
> Glad to hear Dyl is doing well  let's hope it continues
> 
> Is the rescue remedy helping? I think I could do with few drops
> 
> Hope everyone is doing ok xx


Well done, Roman 

IMO Seb is better to have a bottomless stomach than no appetite . He must have joined the same club as Dylan. Dyl's eaten 4 pouches of RCSC in the last 24 hours. The guidelines say that he should have 2 and a half.

Poor Frank, perhaps he'd rather just keep eating what he's always eaten.

Thanks 

I haven't a clue whether the Rescue Remedy is doing anything :lol:On second thoughts perhaps it *is *making me more positive.  It doesn't taste particularly good though.


----------



## buffie

All well here,good to read some positive reports for a change,long may they keep it up 

Meeko is still doing okay,he is a bit confused though,the rain has turned white and so has the grass  
Hope its gone by morning :arf:

As for the rescue remedy,I find that a Vodi and coke does the job better


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Well done, Roman
> 
> IMO Seb is better to have a bottomless stomach than no appetite . He must have joined the same club as Dylan. Dyl's eaten 4 pouches of RCSC in the last 24 hours. The guidelines say that he should have 2 and a half.
> 
> Poor Frank, perhaps he'd rather just keep eating what he's always eaten.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> I haven't a clue whether the Rescue Remedy is doing anything :lol:On second thoughts perhaps it *is *making me more positive.  It doesn't taste particularly good though.


Glad to hear Dyl is eating well 

Maybe it's Frank's age, think we all get a bit fussier as we get older 



buffie said:


> All well here,good to read some positive reports for a change,long may they keep it up
> 
> Meeko is still doing okay,he is a bit confused though,the rain has turned white and so has the grass
> Hope its gone by morning :arf:
> 
> As for the rescue remedy,I find that a Vodi and coke does the job better


Glad Mr M is still doing ok 

Oh you have the white stuff  I hope it's not too bad up there and hope it clears soon. We have it forecast for today and tomorrow


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> All well here,good to read some positive reports for a change,long may they keep it up
> 
> Meeko is still doing okay,he is a bit confused though,the rain has turned white and so has the grass
> Hope its gone by morning :arf:
> 
> As for the rescue remedy,I find that a Vodi and coke does the job better


Another positive report here 

Its good to know that Meeko is o k . I hope that the white stuff ( assuming that you still have it )is not restricting his activities.

Vodi and coke sounds tempting but, in case I have to drive ,I'll have to stick to the Rescue Remedy, shame really.

How's Roman , Sarah? No more soft poo, I hope .

Nicola, I hope that you and Riley are O K. I know that you're not noisy but it seems so quiet without you.

bluecordelia, I hope that you, Blue and Ivan are o k too, with no issues and no unwanted presents.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Another positive report here
> 
> Its good to know that Meeko is o k . I hope that the white stuff ( assuming that you still have it )is not restricting his activities.
> 
> Vodi and coke sounds tempting but, in case I have to drive ,I'll have to stick to the Rescue Remedy, shame really.
> 
> How's Roman , Sarah? No more soft poo, I hope .
> 
> Nicola, I hope that you and Riley are O K. I know that you're not noisy but it seems so quiet without you.
> 
> bluecordelia, I hope that you, Blue and Ivan are o k too, with no issues and no unwanted presents.
> 
> love to all


Evening all 

Pleased to hear all is positive in the Dylan household :thumbup:

All is good here, Roman's poo is still firm  still keeping his paws to himself  may have a breakthrough with the microchip feeders, Sureflap are sending me a hood to attach to it, I don't have to pay :thumbup: as it's not been launched yet, still in test mode, they're sending them to customers that have had problems like I have, explained what Roman has been doing and that he has IBD, the girl was really helpful and understanding  great customer service :thumbup: fingers crossed it does the trick 

The white stuff has kept away  though they still seem to be forecasting it for us 

I agree Sylv, it is quiet without Nicola and Riley, missing you both 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok and keeping warm  xxx


----------



## Vienna1

Hi everyone, 

Hope everyone is well and all slaves having a stress and worry free time. 

Time for me to thank you again! Milburn is home as of this evening. Thank you for your well wishes for him, we did think we were going to loose him as well.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Hope everyone is well and all slaves having a stress and worry free time.
> 
> Time for me to thank you again! Milburn is home as of this evening. Thank you for your well wishes for him, we did think we were going to loose him as well.


Hi Den,

I'm so glad to hear Milburn is home   have been really worried and concerned about him and you too, Sarah kindly kept us updated  I'm hoping he's now on the mend and the meds are helping his kidneys. Are the other results back yet? Sending lots more positive and healing vibes and hugs to you both xxxx

Take care and remember to look after yourself too  xx


----------



## Vienna1

sarahecp said:


> Hi Den,
> 
> I'm so glad to hear Milburn is home   have been really worried and concerned about him and you too, Sarah kindly kept us updated  I'm hoping he's now on the mend and the meds are helping his kidneys. Are the other results back yet? Sending lots more positive and healing vibes and hugs to you both xxxx
> 
> Take care and remember to look after yourself too  xx


Hi Sarah,

Thank you all his results were normal other than his kidney function and potassium levels. He was put on fluids and potassium from around 3am on Friday until 4 pm today which brought his potassium levels back into the normal range. He also had very high white cells which would have been the infection. So he's on antibiotics too. His kidney function looks bad with very high creatine levels but just how bad is difficult to gauge as Birman's can often have high levels without causing them any problems. Obviously at nearly seventeen it would to be expected to have lost some kidney function. He's on a renal diet now which so far I'm amazed to say he's cooperating with and eating. No doubt this will be the start of ordering another 100 types of food! So to add to the utility room full of normal food, high calorie convalescent food and food for IBD we'll now be adding renal to that mountain.

He has to go back on Wednesday for a check up and the vet said we'll discuss subcutaneous fluids too as he thinks that could benefit him maybe a couple of times a week.

He gave us a hell of a shock especially so close to Monty. I can't help but think we should have noticed something was wrong before it got to that stage. He was eating well but a bit quieter than usual but I thought he was just missing Monty.

Tell Roman to look out for something with his name on, on Monday or Tuesday.


----------



## sarahecp

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Thank you all his results were normal other than his kidney function and potassium levels. He was put on fluids and potassium from around 3am on Friday until 4 pm today which brought his potassium levels back into the normal range. He also had very high white cells which would have been the infection. So he's on antibiotics too. His kidney function looks bad with very high creatine levels but just how bad is difficult to gauge as Birman's can often have high levels without causing them any problems. Obviously at nearly seventeen it would to be expected to have lost some kidney function. He's on a renal diet now which so far I'm amazed to say he's cooperating with and eating. No doubt this will be the start of ordering another 100 types of food! So to add to the utility room full of normal food, high calorie convalescent food and food for IBD we'll now be adding renal to that mountain.
> 
> He has to go back on Wednesday for a check up and the vet said we'll discuss subcutaneous fluids too as he thinks that could benefit him maybe a couple of times a week.
> 
> He gave us a hell of a shock especially so close to Monty. I can't help but think we should have noticed something was wrong before it got to that stage. He was eating well but a bit quieter than usual but I thought he was just missing Monty.
> 
> Tell Roman to look out for something with his name on, on Monday or Tuesday.


That's great news on the other results  really hoping he's now out of the woods and now on the mend 

I can imagine what a shock it was to you, you must have been going out of your mind  and especially so close to Monty 

Cats are so good at hiding if they're feeling unwell, clever little creatures and I'm sure they have no idea that they're such a worry to us.

Seventeen is a great age  sounds like Milburn is a little solider and doesn't give up easily  well done Milburn, keep it up 

Good luck and hope all goes well on Wednesday, let us know how he gets on.

The growing food mountain, I think we've all got or had one of those  

Thank you  Roman said he'll look out for Postman Pat 

Take care xxx


----------



## Forester

Vienna1 said:


> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Thank you all his results were normal other than his kidney function and potassium levels. He was put on fluids and potassium from around 3am on Friday until 4 pm today which brought his potassium levels back into the normal range. He also had very high white cells which would have been the infection. So he's on antibiotics too. His kidney function looks bad with very high creatine levels but just how bad is difficult to gauge as Birman's can often have high levels without causing them any problems. Obviously at nearly seventeen it would to be expected to have lost some kidney function. He's on a renal diet now which so far I'm amazed to say he's cooperating with and eating. No doubt this will be the start of ordering another 100 types of food! So to add to the utility room full of normal food, high calorie convalescent food and food for IBD we'll now be adding renal to that mountain.
> 
> He has to go back on Wednesday for a check up and the vet said we'll discuss subcutaneous fluids too as he thinks that could benefit him maybe a couple of times a week.
> 
> He gave us a hell of a shock especially so close to Monty. I can't help but think we should have noticed something was wrong before it got to that stage. He was eating well but a bit quieter than usual but I thought he was just missing Monty.
> 
> Tell Roman to look out for something with his name on, on Monday or Tuesday.


Den, Its fantastic news that Milburn's home and eating the renal food. IMO a good appetite is a really good sign.  He's done so well to get to 17 without serious problems. It must be an indication of your care and devotion.

I'm sure that you will be familiar with Tanya's CKD site but if not , its here 
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Tanya's Support Group
Try not to worry about Milburn's " figures". On Tanya's site there is an oft used saying of " treat the cat not the numbers" I'm sure that he will benefit from sub cut fluids.

I'm sad that you had to experience him having a seizure. It must have been so traumatic. My heart goes out to you.

*Please *don't blame yourself for not spotting something wrong beforehand. Cats are notorious for hiding any indication that they are ill. I missed ckd in my semi feral Simba till it was very late. I doubt that anyone could tell the difference between a sick cat and one who is grieving.

Are you going to start a PF thread devoted to Milburn? He's such a gorgeous boy he deserves his own thread.:001_wub: :001_wub::001_wub: It would also stop me constantly pestering you/LD for news.

Sending positive vibes for Milburn and ((( Hugs ))) for you.


----------



## Citruspips

So on this subject is there any value in selecting a breeder who states their queens/studs are HCM neg? 

I ask as I hope to get a Maine Coone kitten later this year. I've read that as a breed, MC's are prone to heart disease. I'm feeling quite confused and would appreciate thoughts, opinion etc


----------



## felinenutritionawareness

Citruspips said:


> So on this subject is there any value in selecting a breeder who states their queens/studs are HCM neg?
> 
> I ask as I hope to get a Maine Coone kitten later this year. I've read that as a breed, MC's are prone to heart disease. I'm feeling quite confused and would appreciate thoughts, opinion etc


I would ask the breeder to have the kitten HCM tested and ask if the parents of the kitten or any of the litter have HCM or the grandparents. Even having your kitten HCM tested doesn't mean it won't develop later on I am affraid.

HCM isn't breed specific either as my cat is a domestic short haired (indoor cat) which isn't a specific breed of cat but a mixture of different breeds.


----------



## andrewjacson

This is the most common form of heart disease seen in cats, and the most common cause of heart failure .disease seen in cats, and the most common cause of heart failure.

Disease of the heart valves (causing 'leaky' valves which prevent the heart functioning normally) are an important and common cause of heart disease in humans and in dogs, but this is rarely seen in cats.

Cardiomyopathies (disease of the heart muscle) are described according to the effect they have on the structure and function of the cardiac (heart) muscle.


----------



## Citruspips

As I look around breeders of Maine Coone cats many say HCM neg. I had assumed this was some sort of genetic test rather than a health check of the parents/kittens??


----------



## andrewjacson

Spaying and neutering is the only way to reduce or eliminate that. It's also better for your pet's health.


----------



## dungbeetle

Here is some harsh reality. Female kittens can fall pregnant at 4 months of age. Female kittens can get raped by un-neutered male cats & subsequenlty fall pregnant. There is no need to wait until 4 or 6 months to spay/neuter your kitten. They can be operated on (spay/neuter) when they reach 1kg body weight.


----------



## lillytheunicorn

Monty suffered a really nasty burn from climbing into a car engine. He was prescribed antibiotics, flamazine cream and metacam. The antibiotics and flaazine cream were twice a day and the metacam was once a day. In the stress and confusion over what happened we misheard or mis understood and we thought we had to give him the metacam twice a day after a week we rang out and phoned the vets to get more then we realised we have accidentally double dosed him for a week. The vets wanted us to bring him in immediately in case he had suffered kidney or liver damage. They ran bloods and warned us he could end up very ill. Thankfully his bloods came back an hour later all clear. He was prescribed Tramadol three times a day instead. the next 8 days were hell for us getting a tablet down him three times a day, he wasn't eating so couldn't hide it in his food and he hid from us and seemed in pain. We took him back to the vets and they checked him out again and concluded he wasn't suffering from problems associated with the metacam overdose so she gave him a long acting metacam injection and some oral. The next day he was back to his usual self and 6 weeks down the line his burn has healed nicely he didn't need an operation and the vet is so pleased with his progress.

So please check and double check the dosing of metacam his has definitely used up two his nine lives as the stress of the burn then the thought we had poisoned him and he could end up in renal failure through our stupidity.


----------



## sarahecp

Morning all, 

It's been very quiet on here lately, I do hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are well. 

Roman is doing well, there's been no more soft poo, though he did take a big mouthful of Frank's dinner yesterday  I got that look as if to say I know I'm not allowed but I couldn't resist it  

I've received the hood from Sureflap to trial and some intruder mode settings to programme, Seb's been eating with the hood on the feeder but Roman hasnt been near him so not sure if that's going to work yet, I programmed the new settings but messed it up  so need to programme Seb in again and start again. 

Will be calling Patricia on the 11th to give her an update, will let you know what she says. 

Take care and enjoy your Sunday xx


----------



## Forester

Greetings IBDers. I , too, have been a little concerned whether everyone is o k as its so quiet. 

I'm pleased to hear that Roman continues to be good. 

All is fine in our direction. We're getting the occaisional return but I think that they have been due to my bad timing over food supply. Dylan continues to eat for England, plus Wales , Scotland and Ireland. I'm beginning to suspect that he was planted on the streets of Monmouth almost 2 years ago by Royal Canin in order to boost sales of Sensitivity Control. Weighed him this morning, still 5. 48kg. I don't know where he's putting the food , or perhaps I do . Oko plus must be involved in the conspiracy .

I think daily of Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and slaves, hoping that you're all o k.


----------



## sarahecp

I'm pleased to hear that Dyl is continuing to do well   

Roman has days when he eats more than others, I am back to free feeding in where I'm filling the bowl when it's empty apart from days when I'm at work still using the auto feeders as this keeps the food fresh. 

I'm really hoping the microchip feeders do the trick, if they don't Sureflap have agreed I can return them for a full refund which is very nice of them but let's hope it doesn't come to that.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm pleased to hear that Dyl is continuing to do well
> 
> Roman has days when he eats more than others, I am back to free feeding in where I'm filling the bowl when it's empty apart from days when I'm at work still using the auto feeders as this keeps the food fresh.
> 
> I'm really hoping the microchip feeders do the trick, if they don't Sureflap have agreed I can return them for a full refund which is very nice of them but let's hope it doesn't come to that.


Thanks.

I'm doing a similar feeding system as yours. My problem comes when Dylan has a spell of not eating, due for example ,to having a long nap. He will then eat very quickly and a lot at once with the result that I get it back. I'm still using my autofeeder at night , purely to separate the food from different pouches. If I don't do this he will eat the freshest food first and then leave the oldest. This then results in pigging breakfast and hey presto, here we go again. Dylan typically likes to eat most of his food overnight. Its a good job that I have no plans to go away again as the cattery would never manage with my current arrangement. They fed 4 hourly last time but would never allow food down all the time.

I have my fingers crossed that the Sureflap feeders will work for you, Sarah; though it is good to know that you can return them if necessary.

love to all


----------



## Forester

Evening all . if there's anybody there.

I must confess to feeling really fed up tonight. Dylan's pattern of a really good spell which gradually deteriorates is continuing.

He's been sick twice in the last two days. I've been adding a couple of pieces of Purina HA to his food in the late afternoons .This has been to tempt him to eat as I don't want him to go too long without food. I will have to stop doing that to see if we get any improvement again.

On the whole he's much brighter and more active since I went to free feeding and back on the RCSC so I suppose we have made _some _progress. It just doesn't feel like progress tonight.

Fingers crossed that Roman will get the go ahead for more drug reduction tomorrow.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Evening all . if there's anybody there.
> 
> I must confess to feeling really fed up tonight. Dylan's pattern of a really good spell which gradually deteriorates is continuing.
> 
> He's been sick twice in the last two days. I've been adding a couple of pieces of Purina HA to his food in the late afternoons .This has been to tempt him to eat as I don't want him to go too long without food. I will have to stop doing that to see if we get any improvement again.
> 
> On the whole he's much brighter and more active since I went to free feeding and back on the RCSC so I suppose we have made _some _progress. It just doesn't feel like progress tonight.
> 
> Fingers crossed that Roman will get the go ahead for more drug reduction tomorrow.
> 
> love to all


Oh Sylv I'm sorry I missed your post and that you're feeling fed up 

Dyl has been doing so well and he really has made progress, look where you were a couple of months ago and to how far you have come. I know how you're feeling, I felt sick Christmas week when Roman took that backward step and then I found out it was the worms  and then the soft poo and a few runny episodes a few weeks back, I thought we were going to be back to square one. Though I do try to keep thinking what Nicola said, it's just a blip.

I would stop the Purina HA and see how he goes, have you tried warming his food a little to try and tempt him to eat? This has only ever worked for Frank.

Keeping everything crossed there are no more returns from Dyl and that you are feeling better ((((hugs)))) xx

Thanks, I'll update later when I've spoken to Patricia, 'the diary' is waiting to be put in my bag  I bet everyone at work looks forward to my monthly poo talk with Patricia


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Oh Sylv I'm sorry I missed your post and that you're feeling fed up
> 
> Thanks, I'll update later when I've spoken to Patricia, 'the diary' is waiting to be put in my bag  I bet everyone at work looks forward to my monthly poo talk with Patricia


Thanks for the Hug and thanks for making me laugh about the monthly poo talk.

Who cares what people at work think ?  The only ones who matter are the people who genuinely care about you and about Roman. I'm looking forward to your update on Roman's progress anyway.

You're right. I'm going to put the Purina HA out of easy reach and resolve not to resort to it. I'm also going to stop interfering with Dylan's natural feeding rhythms. I'll let him be the judge of when he wants to eat. I just need to make sure that the food is available at all times. I'm reluctant to " warm " the food as it seems to put Dylan off and it seems to be more likely to be wasted if previously warmed. I'm confident that the free feeding is part of the answer for Dylan.

Looking forward to Roman's poo update later 

love to all IBDers everywhere


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks for the Hug and thanks for making me laugh about the monthly poo talk.
> 
> Who cares what people at work think ?  The only ones who matter are the people who genuinely care about you and about Roman. I'm looking forward to your update on Roman's progress anyway.
> 
> You're right. I'm going to put the Purina HA out of easy reach and resolve not to resort to it. I'm also going to stop interfering with Dylan's natural feeding rhythms. I'll let him be the judge of when he wants to eat. I just need to make sure that the food is available at all times. I'm reluctant to " warm " the food as it seems to put Dylan off and it seems to be more likely to be wasted if previously warmed. I'm confident that the free feeding is part of the answer for Dylan.
> 
> Looking forward to Roman's poo update later
> 
> love to all IBDers everywhere


I think the free feeding has defiantly helped Dyl, it seems to suit him and I would continue as you have been doing.

I'm glad I made you laugh 

Roman has been doing really well in the poo department as well as being his usual tormenting mischievous self 

Just had a call back from Patricia, she's really pleased with Roman's progress and wasn't concerned about the soft/runny poo episode as he'd been stealing food. She has decided that we can stop the Pred and see how he goes but to still continue with the chlorambucil (same dose) I need to update her again in a month.

I'm really pleased we can stop the Pred  just hoping now there will be no set backs.

Really hope everyone else is doing ok

xx


----------



## Forester

Sarah, That's fantastic news about stopping Roman's pred. .I am so pleased for you  I believe that Ro's on 2.5mg EOD at present. Do you need to taper at all from there or have you already done all of the tapering necessary ? 

I'm sure that you won't get any setbacks unless Roman tries out anyone else's food. My, he's done well coming down from 10mg daily to 2.5mg EOD.  

You must be over the moon, and rightly so. It may have been a long and slightly bumpy journey so far but just think how far you have come.

love to IBDers everywhere


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Sarah, That's fantastic news about stopping Roman's pred. .I am so pleased for you  I believe that Ro's on 2.5mg EOD at present. Do you need to taper at all from there or have you already done all of the tapering necessary ?
> 
> I'm sure that you won't get any setbacks unless Roman tries out anyone else's food. My, he's done well coming down from 10mg daily to 2.5mg EOD.
> 
> You must be over the moon, and rightly so. It may have been a long and slightly bumpy journey so far but just think how far you have come.
> 
> love to IBDers everywhere


Thanks Sylv  I am over the moon but would be lying if I said I wasn't scared, I think it's the not knowing and I'm always a little scared when we've reduced in the past. Roman was on 2.5mg eod. I did ask if we needed to reduce anymore and was it safe to just stop now and Patricia said, of course, we wouldn't be stopping if it wasn't safe! I just said ok 

I'm sure he'll be ok if he keeps his paws to himself and his skippy and no one else's food.

I do often look back to how things used to be and I know we've come really far, further than I ever thought we would.

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv  I am over the moon but would be lying if I said I wasn't scared, I think it's the not knowing and I'm always a little scared when we've reduced in the past. Roman was on 2.5mg eod. I did ask if we needed to reduce anymore and was it safe to just stop now and Patricia said, of course, we wouldn't be stopping if it wasn't safe! I just said ok
> 
> I'm sure he'll be ok if he keeps his paws to himself and his skippy and no one else's food.
> 
> I do often look back to how things used to be and I know we've come really far, further than I ever thought we would.
> 
> xx


Please *try *not to worry. I'm sure that he'll be fine. 

You don't want to have Roman picking up on your nervousness. I discovered with Dylan recently _it really does make a difference_.  Perhaps you could try either vodka and coke or Rescue Remedy to relax you


----------



## buffie

Evening all,well all who are here  Sarah and Sylv .
Firstly excellent news Sarah about Roman,everything crossed here for continued success , he has come such a long way well done 

Sylv sorry to read that you have had a bit of a set back with Dylan,I cant really give you any "advice" as I have started just making it up as I go along.
Nothing else seems to be working so I am going on what seems to suit Meeko 
All I can say is that I agree with the "free feeding" approach,that is my approach at the moment,well probably always has been ,but now I am just giving smaller amounts and refilling/binning if not eaten,more often.
It seems to be keeping Mr M more interested in his food,he is still "returning" more often than I would like but other than that seems to be doing reasonably well.


----------



## Forester

Thanks, buffie  Its good to see you around though I'm glad that you're not needing to post on account of Meeko's IBD.

Our professional vomiters do seem reluctant to desist for long. I suppose that we should take heart from the fact that they do otherwise usually seem well. I am reassured, as well as frustrated, by the fact that the frequency of Dyl's vomiting can change , either for better or for worse , very suddenly. At least it doesn't appear to be the rapid downhill slope that I once thought that we were on. I tell myself that if Dylan or Meeko had a serious illness causing the vomiting it would surely have got worse before now.  Its good that they both seem well apart from having an unfortunate hobby.

I hope that you are managing to keep Meeko away from the dry food .

I am now applying a " suck it and see" policy, ( not literally  ) The free feeding does seem to suit Dylan, just not my bank balance. I can get through up to £ 3.50 worth of RCSC some days so am trying to keep wastage to a minimum. I do want to try him with Macs Sensitive Lamb when I can pluck up courage but think that I need to stick with the RCSC for a while longer. If I can find a slightly less expensive food than the RCSC which Dylan doesn't react badly to then I will be ecstatic. If I can't, well so be it. At least he now seems happier and more relaxed than he's been for months.


----------



## buffie

I assume you are buying your food on-line and not from the vet cos it is a lot cheaper.
I'm still not convinced that Meeko's vomiting is linked to a specific food/foods ,as he is only ever sick the once ,anything from 3/4 day intervals to over a week and he can eat many different protein sources without affecting the frequency 
I'm beginning to think a lot of his problems are stress related,what he has to be stressed about I've no idea,other than me being stressed about _ him ._
As for the dry food........erm well......not totally dry free but only gets a round 5/10 gms a day and only when he really is being a PITA


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Please *try *not to worry. I'm sure that he'll be fine.
> 
> You don't want to have Roman picking up on your nervousness. I discovered with Dylan recently _it really does make a difference_.  Perhaps you could try either vodka and coke or Rescue Remedy to relax you


I will try not to worry 

Think I'd rather take the vodka, straight 



buffie said:


> Evening all,well all who are here  Sarah and Sylv .
> Firstly excellent news Sarah about Roman,everything crossed here for continued success , he has come such a long way well done
> 
> Sylv sorry to read that you have had a bit of a set back with Dylan,I cant really give you any "advice" as I have started just making it up as I go along.
> Nothing else seems to be working so I am going on what seems to suit Meeko
> All I can say is that I agree with the "free feeding" approach,that is my approach at the moment,well probably always has been ,but now I am just giving smaller amounts and refilling/binning if not eaten,more often.
> It seems to be keeping Mr M more interested in his food,he is still "returning" more often than I would like but other than that seems to be doing reasonably well.


Thanks Buffie  I'm keeping everything crossed too, and we have come such a long way 

I'm pleased to hear Meeko is doing reasonably well, come on Mr M less returns and we'll be more happier


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> I assume you are buying your food on-line and not from the vet cos it is a lot cheaper.
> I'm still not convinced that Meeko's vomiting is linked to a specific food/foods ,as he is only ever sick the once ,anything from 3/4 day intervals to over a week and he can eat many different protein sources without affecting the frequency
> I'm beginning to think a lot of his problems are stress related,what he has to be stressed about I've no idea,other than me being stressed about _ him ._
> As for the dry food........erm well......not totally dry free but only gets a round 5/10 gms a day and only when he really is being a PITA


Yes, I *am *buying online. It works out at 70p per pouch. According to the pouches he's " supposed" to eat approx. 2and a half each day. He's actually eating around 3 and a 1/2 sometimes 4 per day plus wastage so I'm getting through 4 - 5 per day. . We're averaging twice weekly " returns" atm. He went 10 days at the start of the free feeding but this week he vommed on 2 consecutive days. Any ingredient change, protein or otherwise , (other than the RCSC or rabbit)seems to bring about an adverse reaction. I've come to the conclusion that its the fact that the diet changes that he reacts too rather than the ingredients. I think that he finds a change in diet stressful. I can understand this to some extent. Around Christmas time I was changing a lot , trying to make his diet complete ( he was on boiled rabbit at the time ) and messing about with pre and probiotics and Slippery Elm. I don't think the the poor boy knew what to expect in his dish each time.

Its sad how they *do *seem to pick up on our stress. The day that Dyl returned a level teaspoon of Hills d/d mixed with his rabbit I remember sitting with him in the dark with tears streaming down my face. He vommed 2 more times during the next 12 hours. I've found that Dyl is better if I stay out of the kitchen when he's eating .

I'm sure that Meeko's 5 to 10g of dry food is nothing to worry about. He can't be having it very frequently because I can't imagine that Meeko would be a PITA very often .


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Yes, I *am *buying online. It works out at 70p per pouch. According to the pouches he's " supposed" to eat approx. 2and a half each day. He's actually eating around 3 and a 1/2 sometimes 4 per day plus wastage so I'm getting through 4 - 5 per day. . We're averaging twice weekly " returns" atm. He went 10 days at the start of the free feeding but this week he vommed on 2 consecutive days. Any ingredient change, protein or otherwise , (other than the RCSC or rabbit)seems to bring about an adverse reaction. I've come to the conclusion that its the fact that the diet changes that he reacts too rather than the ingredients. I think that he finds a change in diet stressful. I can understand this to some extent. Around Christmas time I was changing a lot , trying to make his diet complete ( he was on boiled rabbit at the time ) and messing about with pre and probiotics and Slippery Elm. I don't think the the poor boy knew what to expect in his dish each time.
> 
> Its sad how they *do *seem to pick up on our stress. The day that Dyl returned a level teaspoon of Hills d/d mixed with his rabbit I remember sitting with him in the dark with tears streaming down my face. He vommed 2 more times during the next 12 hours. I've found that Dyl is better if I stay out of the kitchen when he's eating .
> 
> I'm sure that Meeko's 5 to 10g of dry food is nothing to worry about. *He can't be having it very frequently because I can't imagine that Meeko would be a PITA very often *.


:lol: :lol: :lol: You really don't know him very well,do you 

I cant remember how you are feeding Dyl and how much at a time,so ignore me if I'm talking BS (it has been known).
Have you tried just half a pouch at a time and just adding as he finishes it,even if that means 5/6 meals even more if necessary .
I find if Meeko is faced with too much food in his bowl he is less likely to finish it.
I've been there ,tears of sadness/frustration even anger at the whole sorry situation which is why I'm now really trying hard to focus on the good days and just ignore the bad ones.To be honest it does seem to have had a positive effect on Mr M.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: You really don't know him very well,do you
> 
> He looks as though butter wouldn't melt in his mouth  so long as you don't put a Christmas hat and collar on him.:lol:
> 
> I cant remember how you are feeding Dyl and how much at a time,so ignore me if I'm talking BS (it has been known).
> Have you tried just half a pouch at a time and just adding as he finishes it,even if that means 5/6 meals even more if necessary .
> I find if Meeko is faced with too much food in his bowl he is less likely to finish it.
> I've been there ,tears of sadness/frustration even anger at the whole sorry situation which is why I'm now really trying hard to focus on the good days and just ignore the bad ones.To be honest it does seem to have had a positive effect on Mr M.


I tend to put down approx. 1/3 pouch at a time during the day. Unfortunately he will often leave some of it and then refuse to touch it once its been down for an hour. He will hang out waiting for fresh. If the fresh food is not produced quickly the next batch will be inhaled and then " returned". Its my fault  that he's so fussy about it being fresh . In the past I've given to his insistence that hour old food is not always fit for feline consumption. I'm under the paw.  Overnight he will have 3 separate 1/2 pouch meals, 1 fresh and 2 using the autofeeder. He will probably go to his dish for something 15 to 20 times in a day but I much prefer that to the more frequent returns. He does best if he never runs out of food. I suppose it goes back to when he was a stray and never knew when the next meal was coming.

I'm sure that your approach is the best one for both master and slave . Much less stress all round. It does seem to be a vicious circle. I'm confident that the more calm and relaxed we slaves can stay the less frequently our masters will return their food.

Wishing you and Mr M, as well as all IBDers , a relaxed time with healthy appetites, no returns and no sloppy poo.

I wonder whether a glass or two of alcohol would help  , for *us *not our Masters and Mistresses.


----------



## jan&harley

Hi

I found out Harley had HCM only 3 weeks ago and he has been fine with no sign of anything wrong however today when I got home at 2 pm he has been on his bed and hasn't really moved all night. He had his lunch at 2 pm and hasn't asked for any more food which he would normally as he is a gannet and when I opened the door for him to go out which he loves he refused, he has also used the litter tray which he never ever does.  I realize he might be just having an off day but my question is it is possible or even likely that so soon his heart could go into failure and that this might be a sign?? I have been monitoring his breathing rate and tonight it is 27 breaths per minute.

Hi tests from the cardiologist proved he had HCM but his results were not the worst by any means. 

Thanks everyone


----------



## OrientalSlave

Citruspips said:


> As I look around breeders of Maine Coone cats many say HCM neg. I had assumed this was some sort of genetic test rather than a health check of the parents/kittens??


Afaik It could be a gene test and/or an ultrasound scan


----------



## Brookes

You poor thing, you must be really anxious. Rapid breathing would be one of the first things to look out for so I think you would expect it to be faster if he was in heart failure. Lethargy is a symptom but it is so general to a lot of other things too - as you say he could be having an off day. I presume he must be on all the relevant meds since you saw the cardiologist. I haven't any experience of HCM in cats (only human) and poor little cats can't tell you how they are. If he is no better today do take him to the vet but I'm hoping as I'm typing this that you've got up this morning and Harley is back to gannet mode and you are feeling less stressed. I'm thinking that as you were told his HCM wasn't the most severe and presumably the vet did prescribe some heart meds and also Harley was asymptomatic - I do think it is probably unlikely that his condition could have worsened so quickly. I hope someone with experience of feline HCM can better put your mind at rest and/or give you better advice.


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## felinenutritionawareness

jan&harley said:


> Hi
> 
> I found out Harley had HCM only 3 weeks ago and he has been fine with no sign of anything wrong however today when I got home at 2 pm he has been on his bed and hasn't really moved all night. He had his lunch at 2 pm and hasn't asked for any more food which he would normally as he is a gannet and when I opened the door for him to go out which he loves he refused, he has also used the litter tray which he never ever does. I realize he might be just having an off day but my question is it is possible or even likely that so soon his heart could go into failure and that this might be a sign?? I have been monitoring his breathing rate and tonight it is 27 breaths per minute.
> 
> Hi tests from the cardiologist proved he had HCM but his results were not the worst by any means.
> 
> Thanks everyone


If Harley is breathing 27 breaths a minute at rest/asleep this is fine as the safe range is 20 to 30 breaths per minute some vets say 20 to 40.

I am assuming he is on no medication at the moment as generally vets don't prescribe medication for HCM unless it is absolutely necessary as there is no proof that starting medication early benefits cats in any way, this is what I was advised from the cardiologist who done the scans on my cat.

You will find, from my personal experience, HCM cats do have off days and just want to be left alone, Missy does (That's my cat). I have taught myself that as long as Missy is eating and going to the toilet ok I will just let her get on with it. You will find Harleys pace of life will slow down. Try not to panic because in doing so it will in turn make Harley panic and try to limit vet visits as taking Harley to the vets alot will stress him, stress can cause HCM to get worse.

EDITED:

Sorry just wanted to add I don't know if your vet or the cardiologist advised you but the main things to look out for are:

- Rapid Breathing (20 to 30 breaths per minute is normal some vets say 20 to 40 breaths per minute, anything over this would be classed as an emergency)
- Unusual Hiding (not playful hiding or if your cat normally finds a hideaway to sleep in)
- Open mouthed breathing/panting (cats don't by nature pant like dogs do or open there mouths to breathe, don't confuse a cheeky pout or your cat sticking its tongue out though as open mouthed breathing)
- Not eating at all

Showing any or all of these signs would cause me to be concerned and would make me warrant an emergency vet visit.

I don't think Harley is in any kind of trouble at the moment with his heart.

I hope Harley is feeling a bit better today?


----------



## ALR

jan&harley said:


> Hi
> 
> I found out Harley had HCM only 3 weeks ago and he has been fine with no sign of anything wrong however today when I got home at 2 pm he has been on his bed and hasn't really moved all night. He had his lunch at 2 pm and hasn't asked for any more food which he would normally as he is a gannet and when I opened the door for him to go out which he loves he refused, he has also used the litter tray which he never ever does. I realize he might be just having an off day but my question is it is possible or even likely that so soon his heart could go into failure and that this might be a sign?? I have been monitoring his breathing rate and tonight it is 27 breaths per minute.
> 
> Hi tests from the cardiologist proved he had HCM but his results were not the worst by any means.
> 
> Thanks everyone


27 breaths is good so it's unlikely that she's going in heart failure. But I'd keep monitoring her. I'd also ask the vet to do a blood test to check whether her kidneys are ok.

Furosemide is an essential medication especially if your cat has been in heart failure but it does put pressure on the kidneys. A lot of heart cats sometimes needs the drip to get the kidneys healthy again. So I'd keep an eye on her and if she keeps being lethargic, I'd probably get a blood test done for a check on the kidneys.


----------



## jan&harley

Hi Everyone

Thanks so much for replying, I feel so much better hearing what others have to say. Well today he hasn't really improved much. He slept downstairs which he never does and he normally wakes me up at daft o'clock in the morning and so when he hadn't been in to me by 5 am I got up and found him lay on the settee. He has eaten and drank twice and has again used the litter tray for a wee, he NEVER uses it and always goes outside so twice in 2 days concerns me. He has been outside but only for a few minutes which again is very unusual and has climbed back on the settee and gone back to sleep. His heart rate is still mid 20's so seems ok and he isn't panting but he has been sticking his tongue out like he has a sore throat or needs a drink and feels dry. I'm trying to hold off the vets in case it's nothing and I don't want to stress him but if he is still the same tomorrow morning then I am taking him.
Thanks everyone you are all great!


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## ALR

It sounds like he's not drinking enough. If he's not drinking the kidneys can be affected. Have you seen him drink? 
Furosemide drains the fluid in his system and he should drink water to make up for it. Try giving him some cat milk or add water to his wet food.


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## felinenutritionawareness

ALR said:


> It sounds like he's not drinking enough. If he's not drinking the kidneys can be affected. Have you seen him drink?
> Furosemide drains the fluid in his system and he should drink water to make up for it. Try giving him some cat milk or add water to his wet food.


Is he on Furosemide? The vet will only give this if he has fluid on his lungs/chest, have I missed the post where it states he is on Furosemide. Vets don't just automatically put cats on Furosemide for HCM. His breath count only being 27 doesn't mean he needs to be on Furosemide either, a cat without HCM has a breath count of 20 to 30 or 40 (when at rest). Where did you get he is on Furosemide from it isn't in the recent posts?? If he is on Furosemide this changes the situation dramatically.


----------



## ALR

felinenutritionawareness said:


> Is he on Furosemide? The vet will only give this if he has fluid on his lungs/chest, have I missed the post where it states he is on Furosemide. Vets don't just automatically put cats on Furosemide for HCM. His breath count only being 27 doesn't mean he needs to be on Furosemide either, a cat without HCM has a breath count of 20 to 30. Where did you get he is on Furosemide from it isn't in the recent posts??


Hi, it was mentioned the cat was in heart failure 2 weeks ago so that would mean fluid in his lungs. So I assumed he was on furosemide. I could be wrong though some vets reduce the dosage if a cat is doing well.


----------



## felinenutritionawareness

ALR said:


> Hi, it was mentioned the cat was in heart failure 2 weeks ago so that would mean fluid in his lungs. So I assumed he was on furosemide. I could be wrong though some vets reduce the dosage if a cat is doing well.


No it wasn't heart failure if you read back Harley had been scanned for HCM and came back positive after a leaky heart valve and heart murmur was detected. He's not on treatment at the moment as it isn't needed.

Honestly there's no need to panic at this stage. Jan&Harley if you are concerned get some advice from your vet, but honestly I think you are worrying a little bit which is understandable. Harley sounds fine to me, having years of experience owning a HCM cat.

EDITED:
Sorry I didn't mean the above comments to be rude or big headed in any way.

PS. My vet and cardiologist advised not to let my cat outdoors because of being diagnosed with HCM and Missy has since adapted to an indoor life style. From what I understand cats with HCM should avoid being outdoors due to the stress it can cause. I maybe wrong but this is what I was told all them years back.


----------



## ALR

jan&harley said:


> Hi
> I realize he might be just having an off day but my question is it is possible or even likely that so soon his heart could go into failure and that this might be a sign??


Oh God, you're right I read the above and for some reason thought she was in failure 3 weeks ago I'm sorry if I've worried you, Jan. A cat that hasn't gone into heart failure has a better chance at dealing with the disease and 27 breaths at rest suggest it's unlikely there's fluid in his lungs. So I wouldn't worry too much and keep monitoring her. It's easy to get paranoid over every little thing once you find out your cat has HCM.

My vet suggested I should keep my cat indoors too. Mine is on a number of meds though that needs to be given at specific times.


----------



## jan&harley

Hi Everyone

Well what a relief, I have taken Harley to the vets since my last post as I noticed one of his legs was a little stiff. Appears he has been fighting again and although she couldn't find a puncture wound through his fur she noted a large lump in his leg and his lymph glands were up indicating he has some infection, checked his temp 39.5 so very high as well. I am so relieved it is nothing to do with his HCM but poor old Harley must have been feeling awful the last couple of days. Anyway he has had an antibiotic injection and anti inflammatory so I'm hoping he will perk up in the next couple of days.

Thanks to everyone who replied. xx


----------



## Citruspips

So pleased about Harley...well no not pleased he's hurt his leg but you know what I mean

Anyway so what I'm wondering is if you were looking for a Maine Coone kitten (MC's appear to be more at risk apparently) would you go for one whose parents are advertised as HCM neg? 

You see I'm very confused here cos my dim distant past 'o' level biology knowledge tells me genes can jump a generation so I'm wondering if there are lines of MC's that have been developed that may be less susceptible to developing HCM. I just want to minimise the risk without being too paranoid.


----------



## huckybuck

For Citruspips (I've 4 M/C's).

I hadn't even heard about HCM when I bought Huck, but when researching the health concerns of the breed, I was much more aware of the problem when when I started looking for Holly. 

I read that 1 in 3 M/C's are prone to the disease (and having lost a moggy to HCM a couple of years before, albeit at a good age and with very little symptoms, until the end..we had her on frusemide) I decided I specifically wanted to find a breeder who actively, decided NOT to breed, from known HCM carriers. At the time, I looked for a breeder who had tested their cats by genetic testing, as I felt this a reliable way to eradicate at least one of the genes (and yes I know there are more than one).

I tested Huck myself quite quickly and thankfully he came back neg/neg but I may still decide to scan him in the next year or so, as a precaution (he will be 8 years old this year).

There are other known genes that cause HCM, of course, but the tests aren't available in the UK yet. 

I also looked into breeders who perform echocardiogram testing instead, but I have yet to fine a GCCF breeder I like, who performs both ways of testing, at this time.

When choosing Holly, I went with a breeder who stated she tested her cats and they were neg/neg for the gene. I as incredibly naive at the time and stupidly, I didn't ask to see the paperwork and when I picked Holly up...I had my suspicions!!! So I had her tested myself; she does have one of the genes (thankfully only one). As a result I now opt to have her scanned annually in the hope that if she does develop the disease we will catch it an an early stage and be able to treat her.

When I confronted the breeder, she had no knowledge at all, of the testing process, which vets offered it, how long the test had been available in the UK for, etc etc.

As a result, I am now paranoid about a breeder's claims regarding testing, whether gene or echocardiogram.

When I was looking for Gracie, I went to see a couple of breeders who stated they tested their cats, but when I asked questions about it, they are incredibly vague about the process again. I knew more than they did, which sent the alarm bells off!!!

I chose Gracie's breeder because she said she gene tested and all her cats and they were neg/neg either through testing or parentage. (I told her the story of Holly and made her aware that I would be testing Gracie myself and she was fine with this). Although I felt could trust her, I didn't actually see the paperwork, so I chose to have Gracie tested to be sure. She is neg/neg. I may still decide to have her scanned later in life, again, as a precaution.

Just for info, when I was looking for Gracie, I was particularly interested in a GCCF breeder of lovely, show maine coons who stated she tested her cats. I left a number of phone messages and emails asking about kittens but stating the fact that I particularly wanted a neg/neg kitten, as I had been caught out before..she never got back to me...

I have just picked up Little H from the same breeder as Gracie and again, I do trust her, but I will be testing him shortly, myself, to be sure.

For me, genetic testing; if a test is available, it is a must. Why on earth wouldn't you?

(Incidentally, when I gene tested Grace for HCM there were other tests available for PKD, SMA which I also chose to do at the time for very little extra cost).

(The only reason a breeder would choose not to do it, in my eyes, is cost and/or the moral decision, of having to remove the stud or queen from the breeding program, with a known genetic defect..cost!!).

I would always choose to buy from a breeder who gene tests for HCM and if they also scanned I would be even more inclined to go with them.


----------



## Citruspips

Thank you Huckybuck, it's clear that I need to toughen up and not worry about insisting on seeing paper work. I guess if it's all in order a breeder would not be offended.

I have been on a hugely steep and painful learning curve of late. I've always had a pet cat and when Parsley my ancient lovely moggie died I wanted something fluffy. So to cut a long story short in 2011 I went for two brothers I had found on the internet. Very naive of me, I know. They were advertised as MaineCoones. 

One grew into a gorgeous MC the other into a lovely moggy (see my avatar). So it turns out I had bought from a BYB, I didn't even know they existed at the time. After I got my cats I heard about HCM and worried about it a lot, especially in the light of my poor choice of breeder.

My MC was sadly killed on the road six months ago leaving me totally heartbroken. I had worried about the wrong danger

So now I want to get things right. No more outdoor cats for me (although an outdoor run is in the planning stage). I want a MC as I've fallen in love with the breed. I want to find a breeder who is offering cats who have been bred with this problem in mind rather than breeding for just good looks.

It just seems to me that the HCM issue may, in some cases, be getting used as a marketing ploy rather than as a way to develop healthy cats. Obviously there are no guarantees and maybe I'm over thinking it but I want to make a good decision. So I'm trying to do as much homework as possible. I've read loads of often confusing information on the Internet but hearing about real experience is invaluable so thanks again


----------



## huckybuck

I do think we do learn the hard way sometimes. That is so sad about your M/C baby  

I forgot to say in my (long) post earlier that when I was looking for Gracie I went to see another breeder who said she tested. When I visited her and asked about the testing she gave really vague answers and conflicting information. I think if you have genuinely tested your cats you will easily remember where they were done and what the process involved. It's very straightforward. This breeder is quite respected in the breeding world but I chose to walk away for the above (and a couple of other reasons).

I will be testing Little H in the next week or so and praying once again that my breeder is as honest and truthful as she was with Gracie. I'm happy to pass on her prefix if you'd like it. She is quite a way up north but I was willing to travel for the right cat.

(Jumbu's Lyra is from the same litter and they are picking up renly a beautiful red tabby in a couple of week's time).


----------



## Jiskefet

Has this still not been made a sticky????
It should be!!!


----------



## huckybuck

I'm so pleased this is up here now Lynn, thank you.


----------



## Tashajay8

This thread has been an interesting read.I am looking for a new vets and wondering if anyone is in the Southampton/eastleigh/hedge end area and could recommend a good vet. I had to take my kitten to the vets recently and wasn't entirely pleased with the care I received. I have looked into two vets in the area, one of which is an animal hospital and provides it's own out of hours care and has impressive services. The other does not provide it's out of hours care, but is open till 9pm and seems really friendly, upfront with their prices and very holistic with regards to vaccinations and food. So just thinking is 24 hour care at your own vets essential and does anyone have any vets they are please with in my area? Thanks


----------



## Saratzah

Would u say that cereals in cat food are a definite no-no for cats with IBD?

I ask because I brought some RC sensitive before noticing that it contained cereals!


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> Would u say that cereals in cat food are a definite no-no for cats with IBD?
> 
> I ask because I brought some RC sensitive before noticing that it contained cereals!


Saratzah, Welcome to the thread though I'm sorry that your cat has given you cause to be here. ( I hope that makes sense ).

Cereals in cat food are generally not considered good for *any *cat and particularly not for cats with digestive problems. Some of the veterinary prescription diets for IBD/ food sensitivities do however contain cereals. IMHO the veterinary prescription diets are not the best foods for IBD cats however they do seem to suit some cats.

Is the RC Sensitive food which you have bought the wet or the dry. ? I personally feed the wet version to my cat as , so far, this has been the food which he has been best on. My cat does not have a specific IBD diagnosis but has been suffering from chronic vomiting. My long term aim is to find a food which has a high meat content and no cereals or sugars which also suits my cat but I have yet to find that.

I hope that you don't mind me asking but what were you previously feeding your cat, and with what results? What prompted you to feed the RCSC ? Which other foods have you tried?

Sorry about all of the questions but it helps to get some background information.


----------



## Saratzah

Hi thanks for getting back to me

Stan is a long haired ginger moggie. At a year old last August he had a solitary vomit then stopped eating...he lost weight and became very lethargic. Over a four week period he had antibiotics, b12 inj, stool sample, blood tests, X-ray and scan! All tests came back negative though a lump was found in his abdomen. He underwent surgery where they removed a thickened section of bowel.

He made an immediate recovery. We started feeding him RC sensitive and JWB...wet not dry. Had previously been on purina gourmet or nutriment.

Since xmas he has had two bouts of a high temperature together with some vomitting and diarrhoea but not a daily occurrence! Currently he is on a 3week course of antibiotics, hills ZD dry(won't entertain the wet) and purina gourmet rabbit as I heard a new meat might help, previously everything's been chicken based.

Thanks for taking the time to read this

Sarah and Stan xx


----------



## Forester

Saratzah, I'm sorry that I don't know what to advise for Stan . He is definitely a lucky boy to have found a slave as caring as you.

If you wanted to try him on a novel protein diet, i e a protein he has not eaten before you could try something like Ropocat Sensitive Gold Venison 200g | The Happy Kitty Company
or Katzenmenü - KÄNGURU - Adult Katze Nassnahrung - Vet-Concept GmbH & Co KG 400g
both of these foods are single protein, unlike the Gourmet rabbit which contains meats other than the named flavour meat. The problem with foods which are not single protein is that they do not allow you to find out what your cat can/ cannot tolerate as it is unclear what the actual ingredients are.


----------



## Saratzah

Thanks for those suggestions.

He is the first cat I've owned and absolutely rules the house! but not the garden as that honour goes to Beatrice out ex-batt hen!!

I will let u know how we get on!!

Sarah and Stan xx


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sarah  and welcome to the IBD thread. 

I'm sorry to hear that Stan has IBD  it's not nice for us or our cats 

My Roman is an IBD'er that has dire rear but no vomiting. 

I'm sorry that I'm not able to advise on the vomiting side, but I'm here to support you in any way I can. 

You've had some great advice from Sylv  

I really hope things start to look up for Stan and you can find the right food etc that will help keep his IBD/vomiting under control. 

Please keep us updated on how your little man is and how he's doing xx


----------



## Saratzah

Thanks for ur kind words

Poor Stan is only 19 months and I've lost count of the vet visits...he hasn't lost count of the amount of times he's had his temperature taken and I have the scars to prove it!


----------



## Forester

How's Stan doing , Saratzah ? Can we have a photo, ( so that we can swoon over him ). I can't resist a ginger.

How's he doing food/symptom wise at the moment?

Its chicken based ,I am afraid , but I have some Ropocat Sensitive chicken tins which I could send you a couple of to try if you would like. They are single protein chicken and intended for sensitive tummies. If you'd like to try them can you PM your details to me and I'll put them in the post for Stan. 

To send a private message you need to have made 25 posts or the message won't get through. I'm sure that you could find a few photos in the gallery to comment on if you needed to add to your post tally quickly.

Did your vet take biopsies from the thickened section of Stan's bowel ? If so, was anything found?

Sarah ( this could get confusing  ), How's Roman today?

Dylan continues to be fine . He managed to get through almost 2 pouches of RCSC in less than an hour and a half last night. I was convinced that he would be sick but he doesn't appear to have been. This is the boy who 2 months ago couldn't eat more than 20g food at a time without vomiting. 

I'd love to get him onto something a little more economical , as well as better quality, if I can, but am still too nervous to try introducing anything else. I have another £78 worth coming today. It will last him 3 and a half weeks.

Fingers crossed that Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and any other IBD cats out there are all doing well and not giving cause for concern. Love to all.


----------



## Saratzah

Hi everyone

Stan is doing okay at the moment. 'Helped' me clean the chickens out!!
He's still got 2weeks of antibiotics to finish before we next see vet. He's eating like a horse...hills ZD dry and purina rabbit....not perfect but he eats it and is putting on weight...am still researching the food thing!!

The results from his biopsy were inconclusive! ?reaction to something he ate...helpful!!


----------



## Saratzah

Hope this works a second time! The last picture was of Stan after his op wearing the cone of shame!! He tolerated it so well...it was funny watching him going through his grooming routine when all he was cleaning was the inside of the cone!!


----------



## Saratzah

Sorry me again...I'm hogging the forum!

Is the ropocat a pate type food cos he won't eat those!?


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> View attachment 152629
> 
> 
> Hope this works a second time! The last picture was of Stan after his op wearing the cone of shame!! He tolerated it so well...it was funny watching him going through his grooming routine when all he was cleaning was the inside of the cone!!


Oooh , he's just so handsome. He could send me weak at the knees if I met him in the flesh. :001_wub: He has a wonderful look of distain as is befitting such a handsome boy.

The Ropocat *is *a pate, quite a firm one but you would be welcome to try it in case Stan surprises you.

Biopsy results " inconclusive " sounds about par for kitties featured in this thread  Nothing has ever been found with respect to my boy.
Do the antibiotics appear to be helping Stan at all ?

I'm confused how your vet could suggest that Stan was" having a reaction to something he ate " when part of his bowel was thickened. How did they explain that ?


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> Sorry me again...I'm hogging the forum!


You're *NOT *hogging the forum. We're here to help and support and you need to ask questions.


----------



## Saratzah

Thank you I am rather besotted with him!

The vets haven't a clue really! They're treating his symptoms as they appear. The antibiotics were given due to his temp of 40.8c. After a week there wasn't much change hence the 3 week course.

His appetite has returned and he's more interested in life but his playfulness hasn't returned which I find so sad in a young cat. We always know when he's feeling 100% coz he's really naughty and that hasn't happened yet!


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> Thanks for ur kind words
> 
> Poor Stan is only 19 months and I've lost count of the vet visits...he hasn't lost count of the amount of times he's had his temperature taken and I have the scars to prove it!


You're welcome 

Roman has just turned 21 months, his intermittent dire rear had been going on since he was around 8 months old. Roman thinks our vets is his second home. We go every month for blood tests. He's on Chlorambucil which is an immune system suppressing drug, it can cause the bone marrow to suppress but is very rare so we get his bloods checked to be on the safe side.



Forester said:


> How's Stan doing , Saratzah ? Can we have a photo, ( so that we can swoon over him ). I can't resist a ginger.
> 
> How's he doing food/symptom wise at the moment?
> 
> Its chicken based ,I am afraid , but I have some Ropocat Sensitive chicken tins which I could send you a couple of to try if you would like. They are single protein chicken and intended for sensitive tummies. If you'd like to try them can you PM your details to me and I'll put them in the post for Stan.
> 
> To send a private message you need to have made 25 posts or the message won't get through. I'm sure that you could find a few photos in the gallery to comment on if you needed to add to your post tally quickly.
> 
> Did your vet take biopsies from the thickened section of Stan's bowel ? If so, was anything found?
> 
> Sarah ( this could get confusing  ), How's Roman today?
> 
> Dylan continues to be fine . He managed to get through almost 2 pouches of RCSC in less than an hour and a half last night. I was convinced that he would be sick but he doesn't appear to have been. This is the boy who 2 months ago couldn't eat more than 20g food at a time without vomiting.
> 
> I'd love to get him onto something a little more economical , as well as better quality, if I can, but am still too nervous to try introducing anything else. I have another £78 worth coming today. It will last him 3 and a half weeks.
> 
> Fingers crossed that Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman, Rosie and any other IBD cats out there are all doing well and not giving cause for concern. Love to all.


Well done Dyl :thumbup: so pleased he's doing really well :thumbup:



Saratzah said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Stan is doing okay at the moment. 'Helped' me clean the chickens out!!
> He's still got 2weeks of antibiotics to finish before we next see vet. He's eating like a horse...hills ZD dry and purina rabbit....not perfect but he eats it and is putting on weight...am still researching the food thing!!
> 
> The results from his biopsy were inconclusive! ?reaction to something he ate...helpful!!


So pleased that Stan is eating well and putting the weight on  



Saratzah said:


> Sorry me again...I'm hogging the forum!
> 
> Is the ropocat a pate type food cos he won't eat those!?


Of course you're not hogging the forum  you post and ask as much as you want 

Roman wouldn't touch pate type foods, he was a Felix as Good as it Looks addict, our referral vet suggested we try the Hills and RC prescription foods, he wouldn't touch the wet but I don't blame him, most of it looked like plastic and rubber  so we went for the RC SC duck and rice dry, I didn't want to feed dry but I thought if it helped him then it would have to be, it didn't help, Sylv sent me some VC kangaroo to try which is a type of pate food, I couldn't believe it when he ate it, he'd never touch any of the pates that I gave Frank and Seb. So he's been on the kangaroo since September last year and doing really well, I think the combination on the meds and food has really helped, we've had a couple of blips but his poo has gone back to being firm again.

Stan is a beauty :001_wub: :001_wub: I do love a ginger  everyone needs a ginger boy in their life 

Roman has been doing well, he has had some episodes with a little bit of soft poo at the end of the firm.

We were at the vets last night as he's hurt his tail/back somehow  his tail at the end is limp and hanging down, he's fine in himself and eating well. He was given a metacam jab, so I'm prepared in case he gets dire rear from it, he's had it before when he was neutered but he was having intermittent dire rear then so not sure if that played apart too.

I hope all other masters, mistresses and slaves are doing well xxx


----------



## Britt

Pooh received an initial dose (inject) this morning. The vet told me to giver him a daily dose for a 5kg cat (I assume that the syringe indicates kg) but that would mean 0,5ml which seems quite a lot  I'm supposed to give him that dose for the next 5 days.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Britt said:


> Pooh received an initial dose (inject) this morning. The vet told me to giver him a daily dose for a 5kg cat (I assume that the syringe indicates kg) but that would mean 0,5ml which seems quite a lot  I'm supposed to give him that dose for the next 5 days.


I assume it's the 0.5mg/ml Metacam for Cats solution. The standard maintenance dose for a 5kg cat would indeed be 0.5ml.


----------



## Britt

Shoshannah said:


> I assume it's the 0.5mg/ml Metacam for Cats solution. The standard maintenance dose for a 5kg cat would indeed be 0.5ml.


Yes it's the feline solution. Thank you Shosh. I hope that Pooh will eat his food after I put the metacam in it


----------



## Paddypaws

Britt said:


> Yes it's the feline solution. Thank you Shosh. I hope that Pooh will eat his food after I put the metacam in it


I think most cats find it palatable Britt....but when I have to use it I gently syringe it directly into the cat's mouth during or after a meal ( as it must be given with food)


----------



## Britt

Paddypaws said:


> I think most cats find it palatable Britt....but when I have to use it I gently syringe it directly into the cat's mouth during or after a meal ( as it must be given with food)


He took it with food without a problem. If I had used the syringe to give it by mouth there would have been a fight for sure


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

A little update on Roman, things in the poo department are going really well   we've had a couple of occasions where he's stole a little bit of food from Frank and Seb  but all has been fine   

He's been off of the Pred now for nearly a month, so will be updating Patricia on 11th March, if she doesn't suggest reducing the Chlorambucil yet I'm thinking of trying him with the VC rabbit again, don't want to do it if she does reduce the meds in case he does get dire rear and I'm not sure if it's the reduced dose or the rabbit, so we'll wait and see. 

Will let you know what she says. 

I hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all well xx


----------



## Forester

That's fantastic news, Sarah .  

I'm amazed that its nearly a month since Roman came off his pred. That time has gone so quickly. I'm so pleased for you. Roman really has made fantastic progress. Keep it up Roman, you've given your mum enough worries for a lifetime.

I agree that you don't want to be trying the rabbit again at the same time as reducing chlorambucil. You would end up like me - doing so much together that you haven't got a clue what has caused what. In your position I would give priority to reducing the meds . You can then try Roman with the rabbit again whenever you feel like it.

Dylan is being . . . Dylan . Just when you become confident that you have a major breakthrough he relapses again. . Back on the RCSC he'd been averaging between 8 and 12 days between returns. That is until last Saturday when he returned twice, followed by Mon, Tue and then this Fri.. He always seems to do this after a few weeks on entirely RCSC. I have absolutely no idea why.

I *know *that RCSC is the food he's been best on but TBH I don't really like it. ( not that I eat it  ). Its only 40% meat so, as far as I'm concerned, 60% of it is probably not ideal for an obligate carnivore. Its almost impossible to establish the ingredients accurately and I would ideally like to know what I'm feeding him. I have therefore, started to feed just the tiniest amount of Macs Sensitive Lamb with a view to gradually changing him over if he can tolerate it. I only started yesterday morning and nothing has come back - yet.

I'm still free feeding as I believe that stress over food supply is a major factor in the vomiting and I still have a relaxing diffuser plugged in. I've changed from Feliway to Pet Remedy ATM.

Sending best wishes to IBD masters, mistresses and slaves everywhere.


----------



## sarahecp

I agree Sylv, that month has gone so quick  

I'm so pleased with the progress he has made   I look back to this time last year and think how far we have come  

You have made great progress with Dyl and he really has improved so much and think the free feeding really does suits him. 

Good luck with the Macs, let us know how it goes, sounds like so far so good  fingers crossed. 

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I agree Sylv, that month has gone so quick
> 
> The good days seem to go so much quicker than the bad ones.
> 
> I'm so pleased with the progress he has made   I look back to this time last year and think how far we have come
> 
> You have every reason to be pleased, Roman's progress would be a prime contender for a Good News Story.
> 
> You have made great progress with Dyl and he really has improved so much and think the free feeding really does suits him.
> 
> I think that the free feeding has been the major factor in Dylan's improvement. I just wish that I'd held my nerve and stuck with it when I first adopted him. Still , as they say " hindsight is a wonderful thing".
> 
> Good luck with the Macs, let us know how it goes, sounds like so far so good  fingers crossed.
> 
> Thanks. I know that I will be happier is I can get him onto a complete food with a high percentage of meat. I started with approx. 1/2 a level teaspoonful at a time yesterday and have progressed to a whole level teaspoonful at a time today. The little Minx ate his morsel of Macs earlier on then asked for more in preference to half a pouch of RCSC . He didn't get any, I'm thinking of Nicola's wise words - slowly, slowly, slowly
> 
> xx


Sorry, don't know how to multi quote from the same post.


----------



## buffie

Evening Sarah and Sylv,sorry I havnt posted on here for ages but I have to be honest and say that not thinking about IBD has made (I think) a huge difference to the way I treat Meeko.
He is still "returning" every 4/5 days but is otherwise doing okay.No great improvement in appetite but what he does eat he seems to enjoy.

So good to read that Roman seems to be still doing well(hope that badge of honour has nearly reached the top of the flag pole) and that although still "returning" Dylan is also doing okay.
Hope all the other IBD cats and slaves are doing well xx


----------



## jaycee05

All of my cats i have had to have euthanised went peacefully, except my last one, she really cried when the vet injected her, and was amazed at how much fluid,[whatever it was ]was in the syringe,it too ages to go into her little leg which had hardly any flesh on it, and it bled a lot, it was a different vet from the one i used to go to, it upset me as she was so good and just sat there while he examined her, but couldnt bear to hear her last cry, made me feel so guilty,


----------



## Charity

Nearly all of my cats have passed peacefully but the one which haunts me and I can't get out of my head was two years ago this month when we lost our Siamese, YoYo, to lymphoma. He had a large lump in his neck which was removed and he didn't come round from the anaesthetic properly, he was thrashing about in his carrier, it was pitiful to see. Up until that point, after eight months, we had not been told conclusively it was cancer but when we knew and it was aggressive, we decided to let him go. I remember the vet using this huge syringe and injecting it straight into his heart. Yoyo knew what was coming and, even though he was very weak, he reared up, trying to back away and I had to hold him until the vet injected him and he died. If I had known what he was going to do beforehand plus being in a daze at what was going on that day, I would have questioned it. It was the most distressing death I have witnessed in my precious cats and I have never got over the guilt of being party to it and how afraid he must have been at the end. It always really upsets me to think about it yet I can't forget it.


----------



## Burmesemum

Oh loads of (((hugs))) to you it sounds absolutely dreadful the experience that you went through and I am not surprised you are traumatised by it. 

I think you need to take comfort that there was very little you could have done under the circumstances. Rather than 'knowing what was coming' he was probably struggling because he was stressed. 

You did the right thing even though it was extremely upsetting for you and you should take comfort that you ended his suffering before it got out of hand.


----------



## MinkyMadam

I had a traumatic experience saying goodbye to our beloved family cat Troy many years ago (around 20) when he was aged 9. He went downhill very suddenly within around 24 hours. I sat with him through the night and we took him to the vet first thing in the morning. They told us he had a large tumour, and that it was kinder to pts as he was clearly suffering. It was a tremendous shock as he hadn't seemed unwell and it felt like it just came so quickly out of the blue. 
Unfortunately they struggled to get a vein. He was yowling and cuddling into me, and I felt so upset that he was looking to me to comfort him, whilst I was 'colluding' in his death. It was horribly distressing, and even now, the tears are streaming down my face as I type this. 
Fortunately, saying goodbye to Brando, our elderly family cat (aged 18.5) recently was an entirely different experience. The vet came to the house, we were all with him, and his passing was relatively peaceful. We were also prepared emotionally, as much as you can be. 
All we can do is love them and care for them as long as they're with us, and try to make their passing as comfortable as possible when the time comes, if we get that chance. X

Edit - just realised I already posted about Troy on this thread a few months ago. Apologies to anyone who's reading through and seeing the same thing twice!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I had to euthanase one of my favourite patients yesterday. I was absolutely sobbing, could barely see through the tears.

It's been a rough week.


----------



## Paddypaws

Shoshannah said:


> I had to euthanase one of my favourite patients yesterday. I was absolutely sobbing, could barely see through the tears.
> 
> It's been a rough week.


Oh Shosh I am sorry....sometimes we forget that the vet has feelings too.
I saw my regular vet with Mitzy on Friday and mentioned in passing that i had lost my old boy the week before ( updated records more formerly with nurse before going in ) 
He runs a busy busy practice and had not seen Murph for a couple of months but knew who i was speaking about right away and expressed sincere regret and actually appeared quite upset.
THAT is what makes him....and YOU....such a bloody great vet.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Evening Sarah and Sylv,sorry I havnt posted on here for ages but I have to be honest and say that not thinking about IBD has made (I think) a huge difference to the way I treat Meeko.
> He is still "returning" every 4/5 days but is otherwise doing okay.No great improvement in appetite but what he does eat he seems to enjoy.
> 
> So good to read that Roman seems to be still doing well(hope that badge of honour has nearly reached the top of the flag pole) and that although still "returning" Dylan is also doing okay.
> Hope all the other IBD cats and slaves are doing well xx


I think your way of thinking could be right Buffie  I feel that not posting on here as regular make things a bit more normal, if you know what I mean 

I'm glad that Meeko is enjoying what he's eating and being Meeko 

It's nearly at the top of the flag pole now, he seems to have his little curve back, will try to get some pics today if he keeps still long enough


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> *I think your way of thinking could be right Buffie  I feel that not posting on here as regular make things a bit more normal, if you know what I mean *
> 
> I'm glad that Meeko is enjoying what he's eating and being Meeko
> 
> It's nearly at the top of the flag pole now, he seems to have his little curve back, will try to get some pics today if he keeps still long enough


That's what I have found,by not focusing on it life seems to have gone back to something like it was pre IBD.It will never go away but hopefully it will just be something we deal with when it flares up.

Glad to read that the gorgeous Roman's tail is nearly back to normal


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Paddypaws said:


> Oh Shosh I am sorry....sometimes we forget that the vet has feelings too.
> I saw my regular vet with Mitzy on Friday and mentioned in passing that i had lost my old boy the week before ( updated records more formerly with nurse before going in )
> He runs a busy busy practice and had not seen Murph for a couple of months but knew who i was speaking about right away and expressed sincere regret and actually appeared quite upset.
> THAT is what makes him....and YOU....such a bloody great vet.


It's rough. She was hyperthyroid and had asthma, and her heart gave in as well. She was only nine, but looked twice that.

Going to miss her so much, even though she wasn't keen on me - she was not always the easiest kitty to handle, bless her!


----------



## Britt

Sorry to read about your loss, Shosh.
You remind me of the female vet who had to euthanize Esteban. He was 17 and although he had only been his patient for a year or so, she liked him.


----------



## Soozi

So sorry Shosh it must just really get to you with a special patient I know you love them all though. My vet cried when she told me it was best to let my last girl go I couldn't believe it when she just covered her face in her hands and said she was really falling in love with her and she was such a pleasure to treat. It made me cry harder but after I realised how hard it is for you guys who take so much care of our loved ones then have to let go too.I hope you feel better soon hun. Hugs  xxx


----------



## huckybuck

So sorry to read this Shosh and also that you have had a rough week.

It's actually good to hear that vets sometimes get attached to their patients too. How comforting for the owner, that a vet cares as much as they do about their animals and it must help, knowing when the time is right, that their vet agrees with them.

If it's any comfort, we as clients have our favourite vets, who we perhaps feel care, just that little bit more, about our precious pets. Even though we have never met you, you are up there with the best there is and we are extremely grateful for your devotion to our cats/pets on this forum.


----------



## Sacrechat

Shoshannah said:


> They may do a big stretch, lifting their head or straightening their legs. All of these possibilities are completely normal[/]




My boy did the big stretch; it haunted me for years. It made me feel like he was looking at me and stretching out to me asking me why I was killing him. I'm glad to read that it is normal. It has relieved some of my guilt.


----------



## Sacrechat

Charity said:


> Nearly all of my cats have passed peacefully but the one which haunts me and I can't get out of my head was two years ago this month when we lost our Siamese, YoYo, to lymphoma. He had a large lump in his neck which was removed and he didn't come round from the anaesthetic properly, he was thrashing about in his carrier, it was pitiful to see. Up until that point, after eight months, we had not been told conclusively it was cancer but when we knew and it was aggressive, we decided to let him go. I remember the vet using this huge syringe and injecting it straight into his heart. Yoyo knew what was coming and, even though he was very weak, he reared up, trying to back away and I had to hold him until the vet injected him and he died. If I had known what he was going to do beforehand plus being in a daze at what was going on that day, I would have questioned it. It was the most distressing death I have witnessed in my precious cats and I have never got over the guilt of being party to it and how afraid he must have been at the end. It always really upsets me to think about it yet I can't forget it.


Gosh! How awful! I'm so sorry you went through this.


----------



## moggie14

huckybuck said:


> If it's any comfort, we as clients have our favourite vets, who we perhaps feel care, just that little bit more, about our precious pets. Even though we have never met you, you are up there with the best there is and we are extremely grateful for your devotion to our cats/pets on this forum.


Hear hear :thumbup1:
Your input is invaluable on the forum Shosh, we couldn't be without you - sending hugs xx


----------



## Sacrechat

I'm so sorry Shosh.


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## sarahecp

Big ((((((hugs)))))) Shosh xxx


----------



## chillminx

huckybuck said:


> If it's any comfort, we as clients have our favourite vets, who we perhaps feel care, just that little bit more, about our precious pets. Even though we have never met you, you are up there with the best there is and we are extremely grateful for your devotion to our cats/pets on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Very well put HB. :thumbup1: I agree.
Click to expand...


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> I have to be honest and say that not thinking about IBD has made (I think) a huge difference to the way I treat Meeko.
> He is still "returning" every 4/5 days but is otherwise doing okay.No great improvement in appetite but what he does eat he seems to enjoy.


Buffie., I'm *sure *that your approach is the only way to stay sane.:yesnod: I'm also convinced that it helps to alleviate IBD symptoms by reducing stress.

Its great that Meeko sounds to be stable, and happy. He and you are bound to benefit from less attention being paid to his returns. 

I've given up worrying about what might be causing Dylan's vomiting . Doing that had started to make me ill, and Dylan even worse. Reaching breaking point was actually probably the best thing that has happened to us. I no longer consider myself as having a sick cat . I have a cat who is happy and looks the picture of health. He just has a habit of occasionally vomiting. He could have worse habits.

IBD , or whatever is causing the vomiting ,may always be there in the background but we can't let it dominate our lives.

Sarah, Its fantastic news that Roman's beautiful tail is getting back to normal. I'd love to see a photo when its back to its glorious best.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Buffie., I'm *sure *that your approach is the only way to stay sane.:yesnod: I'm also convinced that it helps to alleviate IBD symptoms by reducing stress.
> 
> Its great that Meeko sounds to be stable, and happy. He and you are bound to benefit from less attention being paid to his returns.
> 
> I've given up worrying about what might be causing Dylan's vomiting . Doing that had started to make me ill, and Dylan even worse. Reaching breaking point was actually probably the best thing that has happened to us. I no longer consider myself as having a sick cat . I have a cat who is happy and looks the picture of health. He just has a habit of occasionally vomiting. He could have worse habits.
> 
> IBD , or whatever is causing the vomiting ,may always be there in the background but we can't let it dominate our lives.
> 
> Sarah, Its fantastic news that Roman's beautiful tail is getting back to normal. I'd love to see a photo when its back to its glorious best.


So pleased to read that you are feeling positive and better still Dylan is doing well.Obviously we are all going to have bad days but hopefully that is all they will be "bad days" and nothing more.
Onwards and upwards and just to make sure we need to have a mass "cuddle jacket" bonfire :thumbsup:


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Onwards and upwards and just to make sure we need to have a mass "cuddle jacket" bonfire :thumbsup:


I'm giving both of my " cuddle jackets" to a charity shop. I wonder whether they would dare to put the leather one in the window.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I'm giving both of my " cuddle jackets" to a charity shop. I wonder whether they would dare to put the leather one in the window.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Jiskefet

Shoshannah said:


> I had to euthanase one of my favourite patients yesterday. I was absolutely sobbing, could barely see through the tears.
> 
> It's been a rough week.


Oh Shosh, I am so sorry...
you must see a lot of heartbreaking things.
It is great to be able to cure for patients, whether human or animal, or at least make them as comfortable as possible under the circumstances, if no cure is available, but you get your share of the heartbreak, too, not only because of the grief of the owners, but also because YOU lose beloved patients.

But this love and empathy is what turns a good vet into a great vet.
I know I would be very happy to have you for my vet, and I think all of us would.
The vet clinic I go to has a number of vets, but I am always glad to have one who is not just knowledgeable and realistic, but also empathic with patient and owner. The cats know when a vet really cares for them, I can always tell which ones they like and trust, and some have their true favourites among the vets.

It must be hard at times to care for your patients like that, but it is what your patients and their owners need most when hard decisions are to be made.
Thank you for being there for them above and beyond the call of duty.


----------



## Saratzah

Just back from vets with Stan

After one month on abs he is now back to his naughty playful self and has put on 0.6kg in 3weeks!!

He had a b12 inj and another 3weeks of abs half dose then we stop them and see what happens!!

Hope all ur fur babies are doing okay

Sarah and Stan xx


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> Just back from vets with Stan
> 
> After one month on abs he is now back to his naughty playful self and has put on 0.6kg in 3weeks!!
> 
> He had a b12 inj and another 3weeks of abs half dose then we stop them and see what happens!!
> 
> Hope all ur fur babies are doing okay
> 
> Sarah and Stan xx


Fantastic news, Saratzah 

I am so pleased for you , and Stan.

Dylan is doing great, thanks.


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> Just back from vets with Stan
> 
> After one month on abs he is now back to his naughty playful self and has put on 0.6kg in 3weeks!!
> 
> He had a b12 inj and another 3weeks of abs half dose then we stop them and see what happens!!
> 
> Hope all ur fur babies are doing okay
> 
> Sarah and Stan xx


That's great news Sarah :thumbup:

Well done Stan :thumbup: keep it up gorgeous boy  

All is well with Roman  we were due to update Patricia today but she has a day off, so the receptionist will leave her a message to call me tomorrow.


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone sorry not been around...i have been laid up with a bad back and am off work...seems like the same old reprobates are around and ticking over nicely. Blue has been fine. Her appetite is huge and we do have odd days of vomiting but no loose stools which was her thing. I had hoped she would chunk up a bit but her nightly hunting keeps her busy. Its averaging a mouse a night with the amazing but gruesome present of a blackbird last week. No fun trying to clear up when you cant bend. 

Glad to be back. Susan n Ivan n blue x


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Hi everyone sorry not been around...i have been laid up with a bad back and am off work...seems like the same old reprobates are around and ticking over nicely. Blue has been fine. Her appetite is huge and we do have odd days of vomiting but no loose stools which was her thing. I had hoped she would chunk up a bit but her nightly hunting keeps her busy. Its averaging a mouse a night with the amazing but gruesome present of a blackbird last week. No fun trying to clear up when you cant bend.
> 
> Glad to be back. Susan n Ivan n blue x


Hello stranger 

I'm sorry to hear about your back  fingers crossed you're on the mend soon

Pleased to hear Blue is doing well, well done Blue :thumbup:

She is a good little hunter  but not good for you  x


----------



## Forester

bluecordelia said:


> Hi everyone sorry not been around...i have been laid up with a bad back and am off work...seems like the same old reprobates are around and ticking over nicely. Blue has been fine. Her appetite is huge and we do have odd days of vomiting but no loose stools which was her thing. I had hoped she would chunk up a bit but her nightly hunting keeps her busy. Its averaging a mouse a night with the amazing but gruesome present of a blackbird last week. No fun trying to clear up when you cant bend.
> 
> Glad to be back. Susan n Ivan n blue x


Oh Susan, I'm so sorry to hear that you are having trouble with your back. Its just no fun at all. Maybe relaxing in the bath might help by taking some of the tension away from those painful muscles.
Glad to hear that Blue and Ivan are doing well, litter box issues would be the last thing that you need.

Take care, love Sylv and Dyl


----------



## sarahecp

Patricia called this morning, she wants to start reducing the chlorambucil, at the moment Roman has it every other day, she wants to try him on every 3rd day for 2 weeks, then every 4th day for 2 weeks. Then to ring her and update. But any issues in between to give her a call. 

We discussed food and weight, told her he was eating really well and that his weight was good, no weight loss. She doesn't want me to make any changes to his diet/food and to wait until he is off the meds completely, but she said she would be reluctant to change anything. 

I'm really pleased but scared at the same time with reducing the chlorambucil, I felt the same with the Pred, I'm sure that's normal though. 

He's been fine in himself, he's obsessed with the flying frenzy and killing the feathers attachments, the last one in the pack was destroyed last night, only lasted a few hours  I've now ordered another 6 pack. 

He had a bit of a soft poo this morning but not concerned by it. 

Hope everyone is doing well xx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Patricia called this morning, she wants to start reducing the chlorambucil, at the moment Roman has it every other day, she wants to try him on every 3rd day for 2 weeks, then every 4th day for 2 weeks. Then to ring her and update. But any issues in between to give her a call.
> 
> We discussed food and weight, told her he was eating really well and that his weight was good, no weight loss. She doesn't want me to make any changes to his diet/food and to wait until he is off the meds completely, but she said she would be reluctant to change anything.
> 
> I'm really pleased but scared at the same time with reducing the chlorambucil, I felt the same with the Pred, I'm sure that's normal though.
> 
> He's been fine in himself, he's obsessed with the flying frenzy and killing the feathers attachments, the last one in the pack was destroyed last night, only lasted a few hours  I've now ordered another 6 pack.
> 
> He had a bit of a soft poo this morning but not concerned by it.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well xx


All I'm going to say is..

One day at a time


----------



## alixtaylor

I've noticed more and more PF cats getting diagnosed with Feline Asthma and think that a sticky highlighting the main symptoms and treatment methods may prove useful?

I'd like to use Vivi's asthma as an example and try add as much information and resources as possible. It would also be a great help if those who have cats diagnosed with asthma might also be able to share their stories. *If anyone notices any symptoms of Feline Asthma in their cat/s should consult a vet immediately. *



> Feline asthma is the most common cause of coughing in cats. It is also known as bronchial asthma and allergic bronchitis.
> 
> It is considered an allergic disease driven by T-helper 2 lymphocytes against an inhaled allergen. Cytokines are produced which perpetuate the disease.
> 
> The pathogenesis includes activation of inflammatory cells, induction of hyperreactivity in airways, synthesis of allergen-specific antibodies, and remodeling of airway tissues.
> 
> Serotonin is the primary mediator that contributes to airway smooth-muscle contraction; serotonin is found in mast cells. Inhaled antigens within airways cause acute mast-cell degranulation and thus a release of serotonin. This results in a sudden contraction of the airway smooth muscle.


veterinarypracticenews.com



> Asthma is a recurring respiratory compromise that occurs when the lung airways constrict either spontaneously or in response to stimuli which normally should not cause a reaction. Excess mucus forms, airways swell with inflammation and can actually ulcerate, and the airway muscles go into spasm leading to constriction. Airway constriction leads to inability to draw a deep breath, intolerance to exercise, coughing, and musical sighing sounds called wheezes. Not all of these signs need be observed; sometimes only a low grade chronic cough is the only sign but it should be remembered that an acute asthmatic crisis can arise at any time and can represent a life-threatening event.


Mar Vista Animal Medical Center

*SYMPTOMS*
Back in December 2014 we noticed Vivi was having coughing fits, the first of which we assume he had a furball or perhaps had swallowed something from one of his toys. However these coughing fits persisted and happened every 2-3 days, after a few weeks of this (post Christmas/New Year) we decided he needed to see the vet.

His coughing fits would last 1-2 minutes at a time, his shoulders would be humped and neck extended, keeping himself low to the ground as he tries to expand his airways. Though we did not see any mucus, he was swallowing in between coughs. He would also pant and get wheezy after exercise/play, this used to be only after a very extensive play session, but became more common.

Videos of Vivi coughing:
 

*Symptoms to Watch out for*
Wheezing or rapid, laboured breathing
Persistent cough, looks like hairball behaviour but is unproductive
Squatting with shoulders hunched, neck extended & low to the ground
Frothy mucus while coughing
Lethargy
Open mouth breathing
Labored breath after exertion
Upward extended neck and gasping for breath

Symptoms can range from infrequent to recurrent to constant, sometimes seasonal, varying from cat to cat. The best thing to do is keep a record of any symptoms and try record these on video to show your vet.

*DIAGNOSIS*
All diagnosis must be done by a vet, if you notice any of the symptoms listed above, do seek veterinary advise.

Precisely pinpointing asthma as the cause of a cats chronic respiratory discomfort is challenging, since many other conditions may be responsible for such symptoms as recurrent wheezing, coughing and dyspnea. For this reason, the standard diagnostic approach is exclusionary  it attempts to rule out these other conditions. When our vet listened to Vivi's lungs he described a crackling in his lungs and opted to investigate further via a chest x-ray and bronchial wash. The results indicated that there was no bacterial infection behind the inflammation and that it was most likely feline asthma.



> Other diseases that mimic asthma include lungworms, heartworms, upper & lower respiratory infections, lung cancer, cardiomyopathy, and lymphocytic plasmacytic stomatitis.
> 
> Several tests that may be done to diagnose asthma include Chest X-Ray, Blood Tests, and Bronchoalveolar Lavage (BAL).
> 
> *Chest X-Ray*
> The first step your vet will take will likely be a chest x-ray. The veterinarian looks for such irregularities as: Inflammation around the airways in the lungs (doughnuts), A flat-looking diaphragm (a healthy diaphragm should be round), and a partial collapse of the lung. Additionally, apart from the characteristic donut shapes you see, chronic inflammation and/or infection will appear as white fluffy clouds on the plate. Infection generally leads to an abundance of fluid and fluid tends to pool in the affected area. Your vet should be sure to differentiate between fluid associated with infection or a cardiac problem, because heart problems may not be visible on x-ray. However, some cats suffer both cardiac and respiratory disease combined so if in doubt, your vet should send the x-rays to a vet qualified to interprete them. Cardiac problems can be further confirmed with EKG and/or cardiac ultrasound, which sometimes show enlargement or valve abnormalities. .Not all asthmatic cats lungs appear abnormal in an x-ray, however, particularly if your cat is in the early stages of asthma.
> 
> *Blood Tests*
> Your veterinarian will also likely take blood work. Blood work can be useful in determining infection, because you will generally see an elevated white blood cell count during an acute infection however, if there has been a low grade undiagnosed infection present for some time, the white cell count may not be elevated at all. It can also be used to assess raised levels of esoinopils, mast ceels, neutrophils and macrophages all of which can be associated with respiratory disease. Blood tests can also check the major organ functions (liver, kidney, heart) and help rule out other disease causes such as diabetes.
> 
> *Bronchoalveolar Lavage (BAL) *
> The most definitive test available is the Bronchoalveolar Lavage (BAL), which involves taking a mucus sample from the bronchioles and studying it under a microscope to determine whether there is an increased number of eosinophils (a type of white blood cell). This test is also useful for ruling out lung cancer.
> 
> There is some debate about relying on the Bronchoalveolar Lavage (BAL) when infection is suspected. First off, if an animals lungs are in a serious state, the anaesthetic risk needs to be very seriously weighed.
> 
> High quality culture sampling by Specialist labs are crucial. Mycoplasma infection is a common infection and Tetracycline antibiotics (Doxyseptin) must be employed here. They cannot be combined with any other antibiotics and you must ensure that the pill is swallowed because in cases where the drug has lodged in the trachea, it causes very painful ulcers. Bordella infection must also be ruled out, commonly known as kennel cough. These two infections cause bronchial disease in cats and are commonly missed by the standard lab cultures.
> 
> Infection can exist deep in the lung and when this occurs, it can be impossible to ever get a good sample. If there is no obvious infection present in the mucus sample obtained, infection may be wrongly ruled out so your vet should consider giving a short course of antibiotics to see if an improvement is noted before proceeding to standard asthma drugs, including steroids. Vets tend to avoid combining initial antibiotic therapy with steroids, because steroids suppress the immune system and can therefore interfere with the body's ability to fight infection. Studies have shown that this suppression starts with doses as low as 5mg.
> 
> Please bear in mind though, that lung infection is actually pretty rare in cats and when present, is usually the result of an undiagnosed underlying respiratory disease such as Asthma or Bronchitis. These inflammatory conditions clog the lungs with mucus and sometimes, bacteria normally filtered out in a healthy patient, becomes trapped. It is therefore crucial that once an infection has been treated, that the inflammatory process is halted with aggressive therapy which can be tapered down as symptoms improve. Untreated inflammation can permanently damage the lungs and left unchecked, leads to scar tissue and damage to the small airway branches so therefore, the longer the problem is left, the more long term problems the patient is likely to have. The good news is that many cats are very well controlled with various drugs and do go on to lead happy and healthy lives.


 felineasthma.org

*TREATMENT*


> mild disease and only occasional symptoms are often treated with weight reduction, avoidance of allergens, and reducing the exposure to substances that may exacerbate the condition.
> 
> Cats that have mild symptoms on a daily basis are now being more commonly treated with medications delivered through a metered-dose inhaler. With inhalation therapy, high concentrations of drugs can be delivered directly to the lungs and systemic side effects are avoided or minimised. The inhaled medications also result in a faster elimination of symptoms than oral drugs. Albuterol is a bronchodilator that can be delivered through an inhaler. Sometimes oral bronchodilators such as theophylline or terbutaline are also used. An inhaled corticosteroid, such as fluticasone (Flovent), is often used as well. Cats with more severe disease may need oral steroids, such as prednisone for 10-14 days until symptoms are improved. A cat that is having a severe attack usually needs to be treated by a veterinarian and may require hospitalisation.
> 
> Aerokat inhaler for catsThe Aerokat is an inhaler specifically designed for cats. The Aerokat can deliver steroids such as fluticasone as well as bronchodilators such as albuterol. Cats may need to be adapted slowly to the inhaler. To familiarize your cat with the apparatus, position the mask portion over the nose for two seconds, without giving any medication, and then give the cat a treat. Repeat this until your cat is comfortable with the mask. At that point, you can try spraying the medication into the inhaler while the mask is placed on the cat. Your veterinarian may continue your cat on oral medications until your cat is used to the inhaler and the inhaled medication has time to reach an effective level in the cat's system. A prescription is needed for the medications used with the Aerokat.


Feline Asthma: A Cause of Coughing in Cats 


Vivi was originally given a steroid injection, which immediately stopped the coughing and confirmed that the symptoms were allergy based. After two weeks he was moved on to an inhaler. We use a Flixodite 125 micrograms Evohaler with a Aerokat feline aerosol chamber. He takes 5+ long breaths from the chamber twice a day.










The mask is placed over his nose and mouth and there is a flap that allows you to see when they take a breath.

Guide on how to use a Aerokat chamber

*Potential Irritants for Cats with Asthma *
Cat Litter
Food Allergy
Smoke (cigarettes, fireplace, candles, etc.)
Household Cleaning Products
Spray Cans (deodorant, hairspray, etc.)
Pollen
Mould & Mildew
Dust (and dust mites)
Stress
Dry Air (central heating or air conditioning)
Air Cleaners (plugin air fresheners, canned sprays)
Vaccines

It is important to try and identify the allergen causing your cat's reaction. This search can be frustrating because the allergen may be one or a combination of many things. Although asthma is considered a reversible airway disease, often allergic in nature, it is not always the case and diseases such as chronic bronchitis are progressive and eliminating the trigger may be impossible. Some people have had allergy testing done to try and pinpoint their cats particular trigger(s).

*Dust-free Cat Litters*
Yesterday's News Paper Litter
Breeder Celect Paper Litter
Bio-Catolet Paper Litter
Pettex Paper Litter
Smartbedz Eticat Natural Cat Litter
World's Best Cat Litter
Maizy Cat Litter
Green Cat Litter
SmartCat Clumping Litter

Please note: I have not tried all of these cat litters, but all make claims to be dust-free. Corn or paper based litters are recommended. If you have any to add to this list please let me know! 

*LINKS/RESOURCES*
www.felineasthma.org
www.vet.cornell.edu/FHC/health_resources/Asthma.cfm
www.fritzthebrave.com
www.marvistavet.com/html/feline_asthma.html
www.peteducation.com/
www.winnfelinefoundation.org
www.2ndchance.info/asthmacat.htm
www.vcahospitals.com
feline-nutrition.org/health/another-furball-it-might-be-feline-asthma

*Videos*
Feline Asthma - YouTube
Cat Asthma Attack -- what to look for in your kitty
Symptoms & Treatment of Feline Asthma
Aerokat Inhaler Training Video
AeroKat Feline Inhaler Demo


----------



## chillminx

Good post Alix:thumbup1: To get it made into a sticky you'd need to PM one of the mods and ask them. As you'll know the mods on duty are listed at the bottom of each forum board.


----------



## alixtaylor

chillminx said:


> Good post Alix:thumbup1: To get it made into a sticky you'd need to PM one of the mods and ask them. As you'll know the mods on duty are listed at the bottom of each forum board.


Thanks! No one online so I have messaged Lynn.


----------



## felinenutritionawareness

My cat has just finished taking prednisolone tablets after being on them since May 2014, fingers crossed her breathing is going to stay stable. Last check up, the vet said Missy's chest sounded clear, before she had a distinct whistling sound on her chest and suffered from rapid breathing, xrays showed she has lower airway obstructive disease/asthma. 

This thread is very informative. Thank you.


----------



## Samara

I'll share Kai's story so far. It's far from over as no medication was given or even suggested and as he's had a couple of attacks recently I'm calling the vet tomorrow to ask for an inhaler for him especially after speaking to you about this yesterday.

Kai landed badly after jumping off a high unit last July. He hurt his back leg and I had him at the vet within 1/2hr of it happening. The vet said he's bruised it and prescribed metacam. A week later we went back. Something inside me said it was more than bruising and Kai had started coughing. Saw a different vet at the same practice who again said it was bruising and to carry on with the metacam and gave me some stuff for furballs.

I still wasn't happy. He was obviously in pain and coughing more so I changed vets and went to one of the 2 independent vets in my area.

A much more thorough examination where we learnt Kai has luxating patella but he couldn't be sure about his hip injury. We booked him in for an x-ray of both his hip and his chest and a BAL.

The results were a broken hip which needed an op and asthma. He had to have steroids to bring the asthma under control before they could operate so he was given steroids.

I did quite a lot of research then, mainly about the op (FHO) and his aftercare but I also looked into what pain relief he could be given. 

Metacam is a NSAID. This raised a red flag in my mind. If a human with asthma shouldn't take ibrupofen (another NSAID) as it could cause an asthma attack, why would that be different for a cat?

I found this:

"The condition of patients with severe or poorly controlled asthma, such as feline asthma, or other types of moderate to severe pulmonary disease may deteriorate with NSAID administration" .....Lamb and Jones Vet Anesthesia and Analgesic pg258........also Essentials of Small Animal Anesthesia 2nd edition pg124.

I had a meeting with my vet who looked horrified when I read him that quote and promptly looked it up. He had been going to prescribe metacam but now we agreed on vetergesic.

As Kai had shown no signs of asthma before having the metacam we decided that it is more than likely that is what triggered it in Kai's case.

I changed all cleaning products (white vinegar and water only now), washing products and installed hepa filters and he's been fine for months.

The last week and a half however, he's been coughing again. A short one about every other day so I'm ordering an aerokat and talking to my vet about an inhaler. 

Having spoken to Alix yesterday I realise that he may need steroids to start with whilst I get him used to the AeroKat but I'm hoping, with the right treats as incentive, that it will be worth it.

I hate seeing him coughing and it may also explain why he's not always as energetic as a 3 year old should be.

I'll update as I go along


----------



## alixtaylor

felinenutritionawareness said:


> My cat has just finished taking prednisolone tablets after being on them since May 2014, fingers crossed her breathing is going to stay stable. Last check up, the vet said Missy's chest sounded clear, before she had a distinct whistling sound on her chest and suffered from rapid breathing, xrays showed she has lower airway obstructive disease/asthma.
> 
> This thread is very informative. Thank you.


I'm glad she sounded clear on her last appointment, that's great news.  Our vet compared Vivi's lungs to sounding like tissue paper when it was bad! 



Samara said:


> I'll share Kai's story so far. It's far from over as no medication was given or even suggested and as he's had a couple of attacks recently I'm calling the vet tomorrow to ask for an inhaler for him especially after speaking to you about this yesterday.
> 
> Kai landed badly after jumping off a high unit last July. He hurt his back leg and I had him at the vet within 1/2hr of it happening. The vet said he's bruised it and prescribed metacam. A week later we went back. Something inside me said it was more than bruising and Kai had started coughing. Saw a different vet at the same practice who again said it was bruising and to carry on with the metacam and gave me some stuff for furballs.
> 
> I still wasn't happy. He was obviously in pain and coughing more so I changed vets and went to one of the 2 independent vets in my area.
> 
> A much more thorough examination where we learnt Kai has luxating patella but he couldn't be sure about his hip injury. We booked him in for an x-ray of both his hip and his chest and a BAL.
> 
> The results were a broken hip which needed an op and asthma. He had to have steroids to bring the asthma under control before they could operate so he was given steroids.
> 
> I did quite a lot of research then, mainly about the op (FHO) and his aftercare but I also looked into what pain relief he could be given.
> 
> Metacam is a NSAID. This raised a red flag in my mind. If a human with asthma shouldn't take ibrupofen (another NSAID) as it could cause an asthma attack, why would that be different for a cat?
> 
> I found this:
> 
> "The condition of patients with severe or poorly controlled asthma, such as feline asthma, or other types of moderate to severe pulmonary disease may deteriorate with NSAID administration" .....Lamb and Jones Vet Anesthesia and Analgesic pg258........also Essentials of Small Animal Anesthesia 2nd edition pg124.
> 
> I had a meeting with my vet who looked horrified when I read him that quote and promptly looked it up. He had been going to prescribe metacam but now we agreed on vetergesic.
> 
> As Kai had shown no signs of asthma before having the metacam we decided that it is more than likely that is what triggered it in Kai's case.
> 
> I changed all cleaning products (white vinegar and water only now), washing products and installed hepa filters and he's been fine for months.
> 
> The last week and a half however, he's been coughing again. A short one about every other day so I'm ordering an aerokat and talking to my vet about an inhaler.
> 
> Having spoken to Alix yesterday I realise that he may need steroids to start with whilst I get him used to the AeroKat but I'm hoping, with the right treats as incentive, that it will be worth it.
> 
> I hate seeing him coughing and it may also explain why he's not always as energetic as a 3 year old should be.
> 
> I'll update as I go along


Thanks for sharing.  Really interesting to read about Metacam and other NSAID, something I wasn't aware of and will bear in mind when Vivi is medicated in the future.

The inhaler is just one solution, your vet should know what will be the best method of treatment depending on the severity of the condition. Often it's a combination of medication with the intention of narrowing this down, over time, to just the inhaler. Best of luck with the appointment!


----------



## OrientalSlave

_"The condition of patients with severe or poorly controlled asthma, such as feline asthma, or other types of moderate to severe pulmonary disease may deteriorate with NSAID administration"_

NSAIDs are known to cause problems for some human asthmatics (in the region of 10-20%), as are ACE inhibitors (10% or so) and beta blockers.


----------



## Sacrechat

My Sophie has asthma but she is also prone to getting secondary bronchial infections and so needs the antibiotic doxycycline from time to time. She was using fluxotide twice daily but it can make a cat more prone to these secondary infections, so now I only use her inhaler when she has an asthmatic attack. It seems to work better for her.

One of her triggers is the silica crystal cat litter. She copes much better using World's Best.


----------



## alixtaylor

Sacremist said:


> One of her triggers is the silica crystal cat litter. She copes much better using World's Best.


I'm thinking of trying World's Best, as we are currently on a non-clumping litter. Do you find it dust-free?


----------



## chillminx

I have asthma myself and find Worlds Best is the safest of the clumping litters for me to handle. It is certainly very, very low in dust, but I am always careful to pour it slowly when refilling the trays, just in case.


----------



## Samara

The aerokat arrived today so I took it with me to the vet. Lovely new vet.

She's ordered the flovent and he's got Prednidale for the moment as we have to get him used to the aerokat (wish me luck)

1 x 5mg 2 times a day for 4 days then 1 x 5mg once a day until we start using the flovent, then once every other day for 2-3 weeks when I go back to see her again.

The reason he isnt that interested in playing much is because he's very wheezy when she listened to his chest. Worse than I thought it was 

Fingers crossed this helps him. Will update with our progress with the aerokat.


----------



## Samara

On the subject of cat litter, we tried Worlds Best. It's a no go here because as soon as we'd put it in the tray and Kai sniffed it he had an asthma attack  Same thing happened with a different corn based litter we tried so he's allergic to that too 

We're trying pettex fullers earth litter at the moment with mixed results. No asthma attacks which is good but it doesn't clump as well and tracks quite a bit. Still, I can live with that providing it helps him


----------



## alixtaylor

Samara said:


> The aerokat arrived today so I took it with me to the vet. Lovely new vet.
> 
> She's ordered the flovent and he's got Prednidale for the moment as we have to get him used to the aerokat (wish me luck)
> 
> 1 x 5mg 2 times a day for 4 days then 1 x 5mg once a day until we start using the flovent, then once every other day for 2-3 weeks when I go back to see her again.
> 
> The reason he isnt that interested in playing much is because he's very wheezy when she listened to his chest. Worse than I thought it was
> 
> Fingers crossed this helps him. Will update with our progress with the aerokat.


Best of luck with the Areokat, there's loads of tutorials out there, administering it is very simple the hardest part is getting the cat to sit still!  I'm glad you've received some medication and hope that you start to see improvements soon.


----------



## Sacrechat

It is dust free when first put into the tray but always make sure all wet litter is scooped out. My hubby sometimes shuffles it around the tray and breaks it up, that tends to go dusty. I have told him off for this so I end up throwing the litter away when he does it.


----------



## Allysa81

Thankyou Shosannah, you are so helpful.

So I'm getting from what you posted that we can think our cats might have cystitus but it may be something else and most likely the injection of a long lasting antibiotic may not be effective?

The only reason I say that is one of my cats called Milly, who is 16 in four months time has a bout of what I presume is cystitus for the past 5 years, once a year. But this year she has had two bouts, 6 weeks ago and also a couple days ago and also dihorrea (I wouldnt otherwise know as she goes toilet outside but pooed in the cat carrier as I was driving to vets).....she lost some pink jelly like substance so I took her to the emergency vets both times as the cystius just flared up all of a sudden and I didn't want her to suffer until the next day. She has her bloods done twice a year and I don't recall anythin serious showing up in November apart from some infection they gave her antibiotic for. I think I will rebook another blood test for both my cats this month, as I go away for two weeks to america/canada in May and want to know they will both be fine.....

I read that cystitus can be caused by stress which is strange as she is spoilt, can come and go whenever she likes as I have a cat flap, live in a quiet area, regularly wormed and defleed and my other cat Molly has always been with me too so it's not like a new cat coming in....Although Milly does tentd to be very bossy with Molly, I also have a feliway plug in and there's always food, crunches and water down for her.

Just wandering if I should do anything regarding this? I wonder reading the above posters if Milly has Colitus?! She eats alot but never seems to put weight on? She has had both thyroids removed so it can't be a thyroid issue.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Allysa81 said:


> Thankyou Shosannah, you are so helpful.
> 
> So I'm getting from what you posted that we can think our cats might have cystitus but it may be something else and most likely the injection of a long lasting antibiotic may not be effective?
> 
> The only reason I say that is one of my cats called Milly, who is 16 in four months time has a bout of what I presume is cystitus for the past 5 years, once a year. But this year she has had two bouts, 6 weeks ago and also a couple days ago and also dihorrea (I wouldnt otherwise know as she goes toilet outside but pooed in the cat carrier as I was driving to vets).....she lost some pink jelly like substance so I took her to the emergency vets both times as the cystius just flared up all of a sudden and I didn't want her to suffer until the next day. She has her bloods done twice a year and I don't recall anythin serious showing up in November apart from some infection they gave her antibiotic for. I think I will rebook another blood test for both my cats this month, as I go away for two weeks to america/canada in May and want to know they will both be fine.....
> 
> I read that cystitus can be caused by stress which is strange as she is spoilt, can come and go whenever she likes as I have a cat flap, live in a quiet area, regularly wormed and defleed and my other cat Molly has always been with me too so it's not like a new cat coming in....Although Milly does tentd to be very bossy with Molly, I also have a feliway plug in and there's always food, crunches and water down for her.
> 
> Just wandering if I should do anything regarding this? I wonder reading the above posters if Milly has Colitus?! She eats alot but never seems to put weight on? She has had both thyroids removed so it can't be a thyroid issue.


Hello hello! Sorry to hear Milly has been having problems.

I guess ruling out the true medical causes of cystitis is a start. You say her bloods have been okay, but do you know if they've checked her USG (urine specific gravity - a measure of how concentrated her urine is)? Knowing this figure makes a difference to which direction you might go with treatment.


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## Samara

Well 2 weeks later and we're on pred every other day. No asthma attacks so far 

Things are not going so well with the aerokat. After 2 weeks we can only get the mask on him for a max of 4 seconds. Haven't even tried attaching the chamber to it yet. Treats don't work although we are giving them after each time but he is just not food orientated. Shake a treat bag and no matter what they are he won't come running. 

I really don't know what to do  I've seen people wrapping the cat in a towel and forcing the issue but I really don't want to end up having to chase him around and fighting him twice a day. The vet suggested a box with a towel over it and puff the inhaler into that. I'm not convinced he'd get enough to do him any good.

Any suggestions?


----------



## allison6564

Thank you for this post Whoosh, the poems especially really touched me. Xx


----------



## jan&harley

Hi Everyone Happy Easter

As some of you will know my cat Harley has got HCM, he has no medication at the moment and seemed to be well until this week. He was only diagnosed in January so wasn't expecting any signs or symptoms so quickly after diagnosis. Anyway this week he has been a bit more lethargic than normal, he is still eating like a gannet and goes out quite a lot but he seems to be sleeping more than usual. I have checked his breathing rate which is still 22 beats per minute and his gums and paws are normal in colour, so am I being paranoid and if his heart condition is developing would he be showing more signs other than sleeping more? Thanks everyone


----------



## Saratzah

Hi everyone

Just back from vets with Stan. He's been off his abs for a week and continues to thrive.

He is now at his heaviest ever...4.16kg!!

Here's hoping it continues. If we manage a month of good health it will be progress!

Big loves to all of ur munchkins

Sarah and Stan xx


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Just back from vets with Stan. He's been off his abs for a week and continues to thrive.
> 
> He is now at his heaviest ever...4.16kg!!
> 
> Here's hoping it continues. If we manage a month of good health it will be progress!
> 
> Big loves to all of ur munchkins
> 
> Sarah and Stan xx


Brilliant news, Saratzah !

Keep it up, Stan.:thumbup1:


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Just back from vets with Stan. He's been off his abs for a week and continues to thrive.
> 
> He is now at his heaviest ever...4.16kg!!
> 
> Here's hoping it continues. If we manage a month of good health it will be progress!
> 
> Big loves to all of ur munchkins
> 
> Sarah and Stan xx


That's fantastic news Sarah  

Well done gorgeous Stan :thumbup:


----------



## Citruspips

jan&harley said:


> Hi Everyone Happy Easter
> 
> As some of you will know my cat Harley has got HCM, he has no medication at the moment and seemed to be well until this week. He was only diagnosed in January so wasn't expecting any signs or symptoms so quickly after diagnosis. Anyway this week he has been a bit more lethargic than normal, he is still eating like a gannet and goes out quite a lot but he seems to be sleeping more than usual. I have checked his breathing rate which is still 22 beats per minute and his gums and paws are normal in colour, so am I being paranoid and if his heart condition is developing would he be showing more signs other than sleeping more? Thanks everyone


How is Harley doing? I guess it's hard not to attribute any out of the ordinary behaviour to his HCM. I hope it was just a few off days due to something minor and unrelated.


----------



## jan&harley

Hi Citruspips, after he was a little lethargic and not his usual self I thought I would cheer him up by brushing him which he loves but when I got to his right rear leg he tried to bite me (playfully) in order to stop me brushing there so at that point decided to take him to the vets. Anyway long story short he is fine!! LOL He had no temp, no obvious puncture wounds and didn't really moan when he leg was touched by the vet. he said he couldn't totally rule out a bite wound somewhere so he gave him 3 days of antibiotic and is just fine now. 
He said his heart sounded exactly like it did earlier and his heart beat per resting minute is still well under 30 so I am going to try and stop worrying so much.

Thanks for asking xx


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all  

I hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are well. 

Just an update on Roman, he has now been off the Pred for 8 weeks, he's had the chlorambucil reduced over the last month, his poo has been firm with a little soft bit here and there, he's eating extremely well and gained weight  so all in all doing really well   

I've given Patricia our monthly update today and she is really pleased with how he's been and doing that she has decided to stop the chlorambucil, she said that I no longer need to provide her with monthly updates but to give her a call if I'm at all worried and if the dire rear does come back to start the chlorambucil again to one every other day and to also inform her. She said the soft poo is probably due to his system getting used to the reduced doses of medication. 

She also said to continue with the kangaroo and not to make any changes to his diet for a while yet. And to give it a couple of months before I book him in to start his vaccinations. 

I'm pleased but as always a bit scared, so fingers crossed things are going to be ok. 

Will keep you all updated xx


----------



## Forester

Way hay , Sarah  :thumbup: 

That's absolutely the best news I've heard for ages. Well done, you and well done, Roman. Your patience and perseverance has paid off - big time. We told you that you'd get there and you have.

Thanks for making my day.


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks Sylv 

It is great news, I'm so pleased and happy   thinking back to where we were this time last year I honestly didn't think we would be where we are now.

I would like to thank you lovely ladies for being there for me, through the bad times, and the good, for your support, help, advice and friendship. I know Patricia and Davies have been great but I think you all have too.



xxx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv
> 
> It is great news, I'm so pleased and happy   thinking back to where we were this time last year I honestly didn't think we would be where we are now.
> 
> I would like to thank you lovely ladies for being there for me, through the bad times, and the good, for your support, help, advice and friendship. I know Patricia and Davies have been great but I think you all have too.
> 
> 
> 
> xxx


Thanks , Sarah. You've just made me cry .  Support is what this thread is about. Its great for me, and I'm sure I can speak for the others too, to know that you and Roman have come through the dark days and hopefully will have a future away from the dreaded IBD roller coaster.


----------



## buffie

Sarah sorry I missed your wonderful news yesterday you must be so pleased  and I bet Roman is a happy boy not having botty problems anymore.
Hopefully all our IBD boys and girls are keeping well


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Sarah sorry I missed your wonderful news yesterday you must be so pleased  and I bet Roman is a happy boy not having botty problems anymore.
> Hopefully all our IBD boys and girls are keeping well


Thanks Buffie 

We are both really happy


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Hopefully all our IBD boys and girls are keeping well


I have to confess that Dylan seems to be having a bit of a relapse at the moment.. Every time I think that I've found a way to reduce his vomiting it works for a while but then stops being effective. I do think that stress is a major factor but its obviously much more complex than the stress over food which I previously thought. He's also lost 300g since mid Jan although looks happy and healthy. I'm fully expecting him to be particularly bad over the next 7 days as he unfortunately had to be left alone for 12 hours today ( though he had lots of toys and an auto feeder). If he does have another bad week I will initially take him to see a different vet at my usual practice.

I feel that the RCSC wet which Dylan has been on for most of the last 15 months is probably not ideal. Frankly I've never really liked him being on it and I've tried several times ( without success )to find another food which he can tolerate and is willing to eat. He loves raw chicken and raw pork but sadly doesn't tolerate the Felini to make them complete. He was fine with Macs Sensitive lamb but after 3 cans decided that he wouldn't touch it again.

Whilst looking at a register of " pro raw" vets I have seen someone who works two days each week at a practice fairly locally . This vet has conventional qualifications but is also a homeopath. I don't want to move Dylan to this other practice as their facilities are nowhere near as good as those at my current practice but I am considering going there to request a second opinion.

Apologies to all for the pessimistic post. Fingers crossed that the rest of the " regulars" are all faring better.


----------



## Erostill

Has anyone else cat had stress related Cystitus? Its been going on constantly for a few months now struggling to wee, blood in his wee. We've tried everything water fountains, vet prescribed food, medication, capsiuals nothing seems to be working. Does any body have any solutions? He's also spraying everywhere.


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## moggie14

Erostill said:


> Has anyone else cat had stress related Cystitus? Its been going on constantly for a few months now struggling to wee, blood in his wee. We've tried everything water fountains, vet prescribed food, medication, capsiuals nothing seems to be working. Does any body have any solutions? He's also spraying everywhere.


Your cat is neutered I presume? And what measures have you taken to help with his stress?
Poor guy shouldn't have cystitis for months bless him.


----------



## vivien

Firstly I would like to say thank you for this sticky Shoshannah. You sound very much like my vet Kevin he has so much love for the pets he treats. I lost my Mikki at 4 years old 3 years ago. To renal failure. All the tests she had didn't show any toxins and Kevin said she was probably born with defective kidneys and she probably got a virus that went to the kidneys.while she was on the drip she was our beautiful normal Mikki, so they took her off and she went down so quick they said it would be kinder to let her go. They said we could take her home for the weekend but she would present some very distressing symptoms. So we said no to let her go now while she is in good spirits rather than have her suffer. When Kevin euthanised her she cried out and I have felt even more guilty than I would have done. Incase I had caused her pain. Kevin said that this does happen sometimes, but I didn't believe him untill I just read your post. I am crying again now as it still hurts so badly as Mikki is the 3rd young cat I have had taken too young. Mikki is the black and white cat in my avatar. I also lost a 12 week old kitten Toby, many years ago his lungs weren't growing properly. And I lost my very first ragdoll Bailey to dry FIP . My other fur babies were in their older years. 18 - 20. With the exception of Bear and Taz my GSDs they went o the bridge at 8 years old both with cancer. Bear was the first and I wasn't with Cherrydown then and the vet that euthanised him really upset me. First he couldn't find the vein then when he was making sure he was gone he dropped his head on the floor I was in shock. I know Bear was an unusually big gsd but there was no excuse for that. Needless to say I never went back there again. And I have just heard they have botched up a spaying of one of my friends bitches too, so they are no better after all these years. 

Viv xx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Afternoon all
> 
> I hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are well.
> 
> Just an update on Roman, he has now been off the Pred for 8 weeks, he's had the chlorambucil reduced over the last month, his poo has been firm with a little soft bit here and there, he's eating extremely well and gained weight  so all in all doing really well
> 
> I've given Patricia our monthly update today and she is really pleased with how he's been and doing that she has decided to stop the chlorambucil, she said that I no longer need to provide her with monthly updates but to give her a call if I'm at all worried and if the dire rear does come back to start the chlorambucil again to one every other day and to also inform her. She said the soft poo is probably due to his system getting used to the reduced doses of medication.
> 
> She also said to continue with the kangaroo and not to make any changes to his diet for a while yet. And to give it a couple of months before I book him in to start his vaccinations.
> 
> I'm pleased but as always a bit scared, so fingers crossed things are going to be ok.
> 
> Will keep you all updated xx


Brilliant news!! I'm going to again talk to my vet about the cholrambucil and reducing possibly, but I am thinking same as her is some ways, it's keeping him going, the amount he eats he should be sizes of a house but isn't....she worries if he has another major relapse off the meds he won't get back on track again....... We will see

Slyv, I think it's a very good idea to get a second opinion..

Hope all others are doing ok..


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Brilliant news!! I'm going to again talk to my vet about the cholrambucil and reducing possibly, but I am thinking same as her is some ways, it's keeping him going, the amount he eats he should be sizes of a house but isn't....she worries if he has another major relapse off the meds he won't get back on track again....... We will see
> 
> Slyv, I think it's a very good idea to get a second opinion..
> 
> Hope all others are doing ok..


Its good to see you about, Nicola . I'm assuming that the handsome Riley must be doing o k if you are considering discussing the possibility of reducing his chlorambucil. I'm so pleased that he's doing well . Personally, I'd be too frightened to try it. I wouldn't want to risk rocking the boat when you have a position of stability.

Dylan and I have an appt for Monday evening with a young vet who states that her interest is small animal medicine so we will see whether a fresh perspective can produce any results. I'm still leaning towards the idea that stress is a major factor. As I predicted, he's been particularly bad the last couple of days after being left alone all day on Wednesday.

If Monday's visit does not bring any progress I have a different vet practice lined up for another opinion.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Brilliant news!! I'm going to again talk to my vet about the cholrambucil and reducing possibly, but I am thinking same as her is some ways, it's keeping him going, the amount he eats he should be sizes of a house but isn't....she worries if he has another major relapse off the meds he won't get back on track again....... We will see
> 
> Slyv, I think it's a very good idea to get a second opinion..
> 
> Hope all others are doing ok..


Thanks Nicola 

I hope you and Riley are well.

I would see what your vet says about the Chlorambucil, I understand yours and your vets concern though. I admit I was scared reducing it and am still scared with Roman being off of it, he is doing really well  he's eating a lot and gaining the weight not like before where there was no weight gain and then he lost some. He's a heavy lump making me carry him around like a baby 

Let us know what your vet says when you speak to her next.



Forester said:


> Its good to see you about, Nicola . I'm assuming that the handsome Riley must be doing o k if you are considering discussing the possibility of reducing his chlorambucil. I'm so pleased that he's doing well . Personally, I'd be too frightened to try it. I wouldn't want to risk rocking the boat when you have a position of stability.
> 
> Dylan and I have an appt for Monday evening with a young vet who states that her interest is small animal medicine so we will see whether a fresh perspective can produce any results. I'm still leaning towards the idea that stress is a major factor. As I predicted, he's been particularly bad the last couple of days after being left alone all day on Wednesday.
> 
> If Monday's visit does not bring any progress I have a different vet practice lined up for another opinion.


I think you're doing the right thing Sylv in getting a second opinion for Dyl.

Hope all goes well on Monday, let us know how you get on.


----------



## mardatha

My daughter's beloved wee girl went to get spayed last week and died. The whole house went into shock and we can't understand it. The vet said it has only happened twice in 40 years. My daughter is blaming herself and the vet.


----------



## Paddypaws

mardatha I am so sorry for your loss, what an awful way to lose a beloved young cat.
Has your daughter had a chance to have a proper talk with the vet about what happened? Unfortunately this CAN happen, although statistically it is very rare as the vet themselves stated. Of course that fact does not detract from the heart breaking loss.
The vet should be able to give a detailed explanation of what went on during the procedure and only once your daughter has been given this information can she decide whether any blame can indeed to proportioned to the vet. It is easy to say she should not blame herself although I am sure she will find it hard....but really, there is no alternative to spaying a female that she could have taken.
RIP little one.


----------



## mardatha

Daughter been on phone to the vet a few times, he says it's very rare and that they did a PM and found nothing. Yes true, she had to have it done, but the shock was awful. The cat was only a year old. thanks PP xx


----------



## Lilylass

Oh lord I am so sorry .... had the cat had any health problems in the past (just wondering if the spay had been put off for her to recover as a year is quite old to neuter) / had she been a breeding queen etc?


----------



## clairescats

One of my cats Tink was on Metacam for a while when she had gum problems and i have to say she never turned her nose up at the food it was on which was good. I think it smells horrible though.


----------



## bluecordelia

I have just taken some comfort in completing the quality of life scale. Ivan's burns are an ongoing journey. We are through i hope shock and smoke damage to internal organs. I avoided reading the sticky before but have made myself read it to get some perspective on when to stop. I scored him mid 40's. 

thank you so much. X


----------



## Forester

On Monday, I was pleased with my decision to see a different vet with Dylan, although she is from the same practice. She had read all of Dyl's notes, which must have taken ages , and was really enthusiastic about the quest to find a cause for his vomiting. She borrowed all of my spreadsheets / records to take home to peruse and promised to ring me later in the week. She had 3 lines of thought IBD, stress and an intermittent problem with the sphincter at the top of his stomach. I came home with another Feliway and some zylkene.

The vet rang today and informed me that today is her last day before she goes away to do another qualification. I'm really disappointed. It was suggested that I might like to go back to my original vet but I've opted to see another of the juniors. She wants me to try him with ranitidine again for at least a month, whilst staying on one particular food. Dylan has an appointment for Monday for a folate/cobalamin test. I had been under the impression that the test had already been done but apparently it hasn't.. Any problem with the sphincter requires barium x rays so I am holding back on that till meds have been tried again. She told me that she is not at all concerned about Dylan as she considered him to be the picture of health. She has decided that she doesn't think that stress is an issue as the vomiting has been fairly consistent throughout the entire period since I adopted him. I'm not entirely sure that I would dismiss stress. I really do feel that it is contributory.

I'm taking steps to reduce any stress by providing Dylan with a safe outdoor run. I hope that he's going to be as excited with it as I am at the prospect of getting it. I'll let you know of any conclusions drawn from the folate/ cobalamin test once I know them.


----------



## Forester

Whoops , duplicate post. Sorry


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv,

I glad you went to see the other vet but disappointed for you that she is leaving  I would see one of the others but if you're not happy I think you do need to seek another practice. 

Did the Ranitidine help Dyl before? 

Hope all goes well on Monday with the tests. 

I'm excited for you and Dyl about his run  I'm sure it will do him the world of good  

xx


----------



## Forester

Thanks, Sarah

I do wish that I'd known before Monday that the new vet was leaving. I'd have tried the other practice. I've got this started again now so intend to continue at the same practice at least for the new ranitidine trial and the barium x rays if deemed required. The ranitidine trial is planned to last for a minimum of a month. Last time I think that we did about 3 weeks ( new vet still has my " master chart" ). It was discontinued as it didn't reduce the incidence of vomiting although it changed the pattern. Before Ranitidine Dyl was only sick at breakfast time. When the ranitidine started he started being sick at other times although the breakfast time incidence was reduced.

I'm wondering whether I should have gone for the barium x rays now though the vet suggested trying a longer ranitidine trial first.

If I don't get anywhere this time I will be going to the other practice. I have to get to the bottom of this. Dyl may look a picture of health but something is drastically wrong somewhere. He was sick at 5. 20 am this morning 10 mins after breakfast. When I told OH he asked me how I stay sane. I refrained from mentioning buffie's leather jacket.* 
*
I'm hoping that the outside run will help Dylan. Its going to be 4 weeks before the chap can start the base for me but it is at least on the horizon.

Thanks for your wishes for Monday. I will be thinking of you and Roman at the same time and hoping that Ro's bloods will indicate that there is nothing wrong.

love and positive vibes to IBDers everywhere


----------



## shortandfurry

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this is already covered, but how long should I keep giving Loxicom (meloxicam) to my cat, and should I reduce her daily dose to "wean" her off it or just stop cold turkey when her time's up (or I run out of it)?

She's just had her foreleg amputated a few days ago.

I mix it in with her food, she scoffs it down  so it tastes better than Drontal tablets lol.


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv,

Fingers crossed the ranitidine do the trick this time. Can the barium X-ray not be done whilst on the meds? 

I'm glad that you've already made the decision to go to another practice if you don't get any where with your own one and a different vet. 

4 weeks will fly by and hopefully we'll start getting some nice warm weather so Dyl can enjoy his run run more. 

Buffie's special jacket  

Thanks Sylv, I'm still worried but feel a bit more reassured after speaking with the vet. Will be thinking of you both Monday. Keep us updated. 


Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all doing well and behaving xx


----------



## Forester

Sarah, I assume that the barium x ray can be done whilst Dyl is on ranitidine. TBH I just agreed with the plan of action vet no 2 suggested. I wasn't really thinking on my feet when she rang as I was expecting the imminent arrival of the man who's going to do the base for Dyl's run. I was also somewhat taken aback at her announcement that she was leaving. I intend to have an in depth discussion with vet no 3 on Monday.I have several questions re the barium x ray procedure and likely findings.

Please, please, please try not to worry about Roman's bloods. Have a good discussion with Lyndsey or Peter on Monday. I'm wondering whether the differences in Roman's blood results are because his body has made a delayed adjustment to going onto the chlorambucil.( even though he's now off it ) How long was he on it?

love and positive vibes to all IBDers and slaves, past and present.

Sarah, I tried to quote your previous post but PF won't oblige.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Sarah, I assume that the barium x ray can be done whilst Dyl is on ranitidine. TBH I just agreed with the plan of action vet no 2 suggested. I wasn't really thinking on my feet when she rang as I was expecting the imminent arrival of the man who's going to do the base for Dyl's run. I was also somewhat taken aback at her announcement that she was leaving. I intend to have an in depth discussion with vet no 3 on Monday.I have several questions re the barium x ray procedure and likely findings.
> 
> Please, please, please try not to worry about Roman's bloods. Have a good discussion with Lyndsey or Peter on Monday. I'm wondering whether the differences in Roman's blood results are because his body has made a delayed adjustment to going onto the chlorambucil.( even though he's now off it ) How long was he on it?
> 
> love and positive vibes to all IBDers and slaves, past and present.
> 
> Sarah, I tried to quote your previous post but PF won't oblige.


Don't forget to take your note pad and pen with you on Monday  

Just checked back through the diary, first chlorambucil was on 1st October, so just over 6 months.

When I spoke to Lyndsey, I asked if it was because he'd come off of the chlorambucil, she said no but that reading she would have expected to see while he was on it. Still a little confused, hopefully things will be more clearer and I'll be happier once he's had the re-test and I get the results.

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Don't forget to take your note pad and pen with you on Monday
> 
> Just checked back through the diary, first chlorambucil was on 1st October, so just over 6 months.
> 
> When I spoke to Lyndsey, I asked if it was because he'd come off of the chlorambucil, she said no but that reading she would have expected to see while he was on it. Still a little confused, hopefully things will be more clearer and I'll be happier once he's had the re-test and I get the results.
> 
> xx


I'll definitely take the notepad and pen but will also try to take an in gear brain. Mine usually slips into neutral as I go through the door, though its even worse on the phone.

6 months does seem quite a long time lag but I'm sure that Lyndsey would have gone into more detail if they'd anticipated there being any serious problem. I really can't imagine that Roman would be so active and look so well if there was anything wrong. Fingers crossed that you will be feeling reassured when you leave the vets on Monday and again when you get Ro's results.

Sending love and ((( hugs ))).


----------



## Easycampers

So sorry for you..dont know what I would do if one of my twin boys had died when they were neutered recently. But surely the big risk in any operation is the actual anaesthesia? I know it is with humans all to well......My advice, go out and buy another kitten ASAP


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

shortandfurry said:


> I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this is already covered, but how long should I keep giving Loxicom (meloxicam) to my cat, and should I reduce her daily dose to "wean" her off it or just stop cold turkey when her time's up (or I run out of it)?
> 
> She's just had her foreleg amputated a few days ago.
> 
> I mix it in with her food, she scoffs it down  so it tastes better than Drontal tablets lol.


I'd give your vet a call tomorrow lovey, they're best placed to answer.

Hugs for your kitty; why did she have to have her leg amputated? Have I missed this in another thread?


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks Sylv xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Hi sorry, not been able to get the new site working...

Sarah what was his bloods?

Slyv I'm pleased you are a bit more forward, hopefully the next vet will take up the reigns.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Hi sorry, not been able to get the new site working...
> 
> Sarah what was his bloods?
> 
> Slyv I'm pleased you are a bit more forward, hopefully the next vet will take up the reigns.


Hi Nicola,
Ro had his monthly blood test last Monday, vet said it was a different reading and pattern to what it has been. The platelets were higher and red bloods cells lower than previous readings. She said it wasn't good but not bad either, but wants to re-test, so going tomorrow.

Hope you and Riley are well.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Hi sorry, not been able to get the new site working...
> 
> Sarah what was his bloods?
> 
> Slyv I'm pleased you are a bit more forward, hopefully the next vet will take up the reigns.


Thanks, Nicola.. I hope that I'm going to be a bit further forward and not continuing to go round and round in circles. I have written a list of questions for vet no 3, I suspect that she's going to wonder what has hit her. I have to get to the bottom of this. Hopefully vet no3 will be as enthusiastic as no2 . I think that this is the one who told me last year that she was impressed with the details of the Ropocat venison food. If it is ,it sounds as though her ideas on nutrition might be a bit more in line with mine. I'll let you know how we get on.

I suspect that I'm not going to get much sleep tonight. Dylan has perfected the art of waking me to let me know that he needs something to eat . He will shout continually until he is fed. He's not allowed anything after 10pm tonight so it could be a long night.

I hope that you and Riley are both well. I often think about you both.

Sarah, Good luck for tomorrow, when will you get the results?


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Hi Nicola,
> Ro had his monthly blood test last Monday, vet said it was a different reading and pattern to what it has been. The platelets were higher and red bloods cells lower than previous readings. She said it wasn't good but not bad either, but wants to re-test, so going tomorrow.
> 
> Hope you and Riley are well.


Have you spoken to davies? Hope all is back to normal tomorrow



Forester said:


> Thanks, Nicola.. I hope that I'm going to be a bit further forward and not continuing to go round and round in circles. I have written a list of questions for vet no 3, I suspect that she's going to wonder what has hit her. I have to get to the bottom of this. Hopefully vet no3 will be as enthusiastic as no2 . I think that this is the one who told me last year that she was impressed with the details of the Ropocat venison food. If it is ,it sounds as though her ideas on nutrition might be a bit more in line with mine. I'll let you know how we get on.
> 
> I suspect that I'm not going to get much sleep tonight. Dylan has perfected the art of waking me to let me know that he needs something to eat . He will shout continually until he is fed. He's not allowed anything after 10pm tonight so it could be a long night.
> 
> I hope that you and Riley are both well. I often think about you both.
> 
> Sarah, Good luck for tomorrow, when will you get the results?


Yeah we are ok thanks..I'm struggling with the new forum tho ha ha!
I went through a lot of vets before finding the one!


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks, Nicola.. I hope that I'm going to be a bit further forward and not continuing to go round and round in circles. I have written a list of questions for vet no 3, I suspect that she's going to wonder what has hit her. I have to get to the bottom of this. Hopefully vet no3 will be as enthusiastic as no2 . I think that this is the one who told me last year that she was impressed with the details of the Ropocat venison food. If it is ,it sounds as though her ideas on nutrition might be a bit more in line with mine. I'll let you know how we get on.
> 
> I suspect that I'm not going to get much sleep tonight. Dylan has perfected the art of waking me to let me know that he needs something to eat . He will shout continually until he is fed. He's not allowed anything after 10pm tonight so it could be a long night.
> 
> I hope that you and Riley are both well. I often think about you both.
> 
> Sarah, Good luck for tomorrow, when will you get the results?


Thanks Sylv and to you and Dyl too xx

We usually get the results the same, our appointment isn't until 5pm I would think it would be Tuesday but will ask tomorrow.



nicolaa123 said:


> Have you spoken to davies? Hope all is back to normal tomorrow
> 
> Yeah we are ok thanks..I'm struggling with the new forum tho ha ha!
> I went through a lot of vets before finding the one!


Thanks Nicola xx

I haven't as yet, the results get sent through to Patricia, but I was going to see what the results are from tomorrow then speak to her.

Glad you're both ok, the new forum is taking a bit of getting used to!


----------



## nicolaa123

I am a bit confused with the forum that's for sure!


----------



## shortandfurry

Shoshannah said:


> I'd give your vet a call tomorrow lovey, they're best placed to answer.
> 
> Hugs for your kitty; why did she have to have her leg amputated? Have I missed this in another thread?


Will do, might even take her in for the vet to have another look at her wound. She's been scratching like mad and although I've got her well wrapped/padded up, it's been bleeding a little bit. I don't think she's burst any stitches though.

She was hit by a car (presumably) at the end of February, leaving her with various injuries including an unresponsive foreleg. No reflex or pain response below the shoulder, no improvement in all that time so no point keeping that leg. It was just a hindrance. I've got a thread or two in Cat Chat.
She's doing fine, just itchy and frustrated tbh


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Oh crumbs, yes I remember - it's little Jasmine, isn't it?

This new layout has really messed with my brain! Glad she's doing well.  xxx


----------



## buffie

Good luck Roman and Dylan hope your vet visits all go well ,Meeko is off there too at 2:20 he now has 2 mucky ears


----------



## shortandfurry

Yeah, it's Jasmine  The tri-pawed as we call her now, or hop-along 
Just rang the vets, they say keep using it until it runs out, don't reduce the dose but just stop cold turkey and see how she does. If she's still hurting then we'll get more.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Good luck Roman and Dylan hope your vet visits all go well ,Meeko is off there too at 2:20 he now has 2 mucky ears


Thanks Buffie 

Good luck to Meeko, hope all goes well xx


----------



## buffie

Have updated the thread in CC Nothing visible in either ear apart from a lot of wax,so to try Canaural to see if that clears it up if not then poss allergy testing to see if that can show what could be causing an allergic reaction


----------



## Forester

Thanks for the good wishes, ladies.

Reporting in. Vet 3 would get a provisional thumbup smiley , if there was one. She's answered my questions, and some.
Dyls had his blood taken for the folate/cobalamin test, results apparently take about 2 weeks, she will ring me when they're back.

She wants the ranitidine to be indefinite even if I haven't noticed any improvement .She can only see it helping. I'm inclined to agree. I knew that I would have an issue when he tried to eat after having gone 13 hours without food. He's been sick 3 times since coming home despite me trying him with very small amounts. He's kept some down now.

I asked about the barium x ray. Its only to be considered after the blood results and a while on ranitidine. From what No3 told me its more of a theoretical way to diagnose a problem with the sphincter than a practical one. She says that an intermittent problem is almost impossible to diagnose. The x ray would show the issue if it happened with the food containing the barium. Unfortunately ( or TBH luckily ) the issue is currently happening, on average once in 25 eating attempts. She says its also extremely difficult to get a cat to eat the food with the barium in it. I didn't mention the possibility of syringing as it doesn't really sound a practical option.

I told her that ,if domestic circumstances were different , I would like him referred . They usually use Langfords but would refer anywhere requested. It looks like we can get the best of both worlds. If she's lost to know what to do after the bloods and a while on ranitidine she has said that she will discuss his case with Langfords and ask them what to do.

On the topic of food she's happy for me to continue feeding him good quality chicken based food. We agreed over what was a good quality food.

I'm feeling reasonably positive today and desperately hoping that vet visits for Roman and Meeko will be equally, if not more, positive.

love to all, as always


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Thanks for the good wishes, ladies.
> 
> Reporting in. Vet 3 would get a provisional thumbup smiley , if there was one. She's answered my questions, and some.
> Dyls had his blood taken for the folate/cobalamin test, results apparently take about 2 weeks, she will ring me when they're back.
> 
> She wants the ranitidine to be indefinite even if I haven't noticed any improvement .She can only see it helping. I'm inclined to agree. I knew that I would have an issue when he tried to eat after having gone 13 hours without food. He's been sick 3 times since coming home despite me trying him with very small amounts. He's kept some down now.
> 
> I asked about the barium x ray. Its only to be considered after the blood results and a while on ranitidine. From what No3 told me its more of a theoretical way to diagnose a problem with the sphincter than a practical one. She says that an intermittent problem is almost impossible to diagnose. The x ray would show the issue if it happened with the food containing the barium. Unfortunately ( or TBH luckily ) the issue is currently happening, on average once in 25 eating attempts. She says its also extremely difficult to get a cat to eat the food with the barium in it. I didn't mention the possibility of syringing as it doesn't really sound a practical option.
> 
> I told her that ,if domestic circumstances were different , I would like him referred . They usually use Langfords but would refer anywhere requested. It looks like we can get the best of both worlds. If she's lost to know what to do after the bloods and a while on ranitidine she has said that she will discuss his case with Langfords and ask them what to do.
> 
> On the topic of food she's happy for me to continue feeding him good quality chicken based food. We agreed over what was a good quality food.
> 
> I'm feeling reasonably positive today and desperately hoping that vet visits for Roman and Meeko will be equally, if not more, positive.
> 
> love to all, as always


That is sounding as though you have found another decent vet,it always helps when they can answer questions in a way that we understand and are also willing to listen to us.
It is also a good thing that she is willing to discuss Dyl with Langfords to get their opinion,that is what Meeko's vet did with the specialist at the Dick Vet College here,he sent over notes/scans and such for them to look at.
Everything crossed that you can get to the bottom of this soon x

Looks like Meeko doesn't like having drops in his ears he has been shaking his head and scratching both ears since he came home.
Spoke on phone with the vet and he says hopefully he is being a drama queen at having stuff in his ears but not to give the second dose later,if okay overnight start again in the morning and let him know how he is.


----------



## nicolaa123

Do cats get hay fever? Just a thought..would piriton help? 

Pleased to hear you have a good vet on board Sylv it really makes a difference..


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> Do cats get hay fever? Just a thought..*would piriton help?*
> 
> Pleased to hear you have a good bet on board Sylv it really makes a difference..


Don't know if they can get hay fever or not,but I would have thought he would have been sneezing/puffy eyes maybe.He has already had a steroid inj which doesn't seem to have made any difference,but then this is Meeko


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> That is sounding as though you have found another decent vet,it always helps when they can answer questions in a way that we understand and are also willing to listen to us.
> It is also a good thing that she is willing to discuss Dyl with Langfords to get their opinion,that is what Meeko's vet did with the specialist at the Dick Vet College here,he sent over notes/scans and such for them to look at.
> Everything crossed that you can get to the bottom of this soon x
> 
> Looks like Meeko doesn't like having drops in his ears he has been shaking his head and scratching both ears since he came home.
> Spoke on phone with the vet and he says hopefully he is being a drama queen at having stuff in his ears but not to give the second dose later,if okay overnight start again in the morning and let him know how he is.


I feel more optimistic about finding a way to help Dylan now.  That is, as long as its not the sphincter problem . The vomiting when we got home points to acid being contributory. He didn't manage to keep anything down till I'd given him some ranitidine. Poor boy was trembling at the vets which makes me sad. He used to be quite confident.

I did like that the vet was happy with my choice of food for Dylan. She mentioned that they usually suggest Hills i/d. I told her that we'd tried a teaspoonful once and that it was sprayed 3ft across the kitchen. I gave her my views on inappropriate ingredients and she smiled and said " Carry on with what you're feeding"

Its reassuring to know that she intends to ask advice from Langfords if she is unsure what to do. I'm glad that I went to her now instead of just trying another practice.

Poor Meeko, his ears must be uncomfortable. Could you put the drops in with him out in the garden where there would be plenty to watch to distract him? I hope that he'll be feeling more chilled in the morning.He must be thinking that no part of his magnificent body is sacred.


----------



## sarahecp

I'm just doing catch up in between everything else, it's been one of those days!

Sylv, I'm so pleased all went well with vet No 3, sounds like you've got a good one there, third time lucky  I'm keeping everything crossed for Dyl's results.

I'm really pleased that they will ask advice from Langfords 

I'm really hoping you and Dyl are now going forwards.


Buffie, I hope Meeko has stopped scratching his ears and hope it's not the drops causing it and they help him.


We had a family afternoon at the vets!!

Roman had his bloods done, results should be tomorrow or Wednesday, I'm hoping it's tomorrow, the wait is making me anxious. Lyndsay tried to reassure me and told me not to worry as it could be nothing. I'm keeping everything crossed that the thoughts I have are all wrong.

Up next was Frank, he's been a bit snotty on and off, a little bit of sneezing and a weepy eye, He's got a mild upper respiratory infection and had a Convenia jab, she said if no change by the end of the week to take him back.

Naughty Seb stayed at home, I got home this afternoon to feathers everywhere in the downstairs of the house and to a small dead bird on the kitchen floor   he's defiantly the culprit, Frank is good and doesn't bother with the birds and Roman can't get out.

And the OH well, he wouldn't even come with me to help me with the 2 carriers 


I hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Sounds like one of them days eh????


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Sounds like one of them days eh????


I'm hoping it's a better one tomorrow


----------



## buffie

Not sure what to make of your day Sarah  eventful doesn't seem to cover it.Everything crossed you get the blood results tomorrow and that they are all good.Hope Frankie is better soon and RIP little birdie As for your OH well I'll leave his fate to you 

As for the magnificent Mr M,he had been asleep for over 3 hours,what was the first thing he did when he woke up,start scratching/shaking his head Grrr where are all the suitable smilies when you need them.Either the Canaural is causing a reaction or he just cant stand having gunk in his ears.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Not sure what to make of your day Sarah  eventful doesn't seem to cover it.Everything crossed you get the blood results tomorrow and that they are all good.Hope Frankie is better soon and RIP little birdie As for your OH well I'll leave his fate to you
> 
> As for the magnificent Mr M,he had been asleep for over 3 hours,what was the first thing he did when he woke up,start scratching/shaking his head Grrr where are all the suitable smilies when you need them.Either the Canaural is causing a reaction or he just cant stand having gunk in his ears.


Thanks Buffie 

Oh no Meeko  what are we going to do with you!

I really hope he stops scratching and the Canaural hasn't caused more problems.

Keeping everything crossed and topping up those vibes xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm just doing catch up in between everything else, it's been one of those days!
> 
> Sylv, I'm so pleased all went well with vet No 3, sounds like you've got a good one there, third time lucky  I'm keeping everything crossed for Dyl's results.
> 
> I'm really pleased that they will ask advice from Langfords
> 
> I'm really hoping you and Dyl are now going forwards.
> 
> Buffie, I hope Meeko has stopped scratching his ears and hope it's not the drops causing it and they help him.
> 
> We had a family afternoon at the vets!!
> 
> Roman had his bloods done, results should be tomorrow or Wednesday, I'm hoping it's tomorrow, the wait is making me anxious. Lyndsay tried to reassure me and told me not to worry as it could be nothing. I'm keeping everything crossed that the thoughts I have are all wrong.
> 
> Up next was Frank, he's been a bit snotty on and off, a little bit of sneezing and a weepy eye, He's got a mild upper respiratory infection and had a Convenia jab, she said if no change by the end of the week to take him back.
> 
> Naughty Seb stayed at home, I got home this afternoon to feathers everywhere in the downstairs of the house and to a small dead bird on the kitchen floor   he's defiantly the culprit, Frank is good and doesn't bother with the birds and Roman can't get out.
> 
> And the OH well, he wouldn't even come with me to help me with the 2 carriers
> 
> I hope everyone else is doing ok xx


Thanks, Sarah . Fingers crossed that we can now make some progress.

Oh, what an awful day . You haven't had much luck at all with your boys recently.

Dyl and I send healing vibes for Frank and have everything crossed that Roman's bloods will show that he is in the best of health. How are they both today?, Any news on the bloods?

Naughty Seb . Maybe he should stick to catching frogs .

Typical man, mine's the same . He hates Dyl being taken to the vets so is no help at all. Perhaps your OH could get you a double ( or triple ) stroller to make life easier for you.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks, Sarah . Fingers crossed that we can now make some progress.
> 
> Oh, what an awful day . You haven't had much luck at all with your boys recently.
> 
> Dyl and I send healing vibes for Frank and have everything crossed that Roman's bloods will show that he is in the best of health. How are they both today?, Any news on the bloods?
> 
> Naughty Seb . Maybe he should stick to catching frogs .
> 
> Typical man, mine's the same . He hates Dyl being taken to the vets so is no help at all. Perhaps your OH could get you a double ( or triple ) stroller to make life easier for you.


Thanks Sylv 

I'm really hoping Dyl can start making so progress, keeping everything crossed.

Frank doesn't seem as snotty so hopefully the AB's are kicking in. I'd prefer it if Seb would stick to frogs 

I can just imagine me pushing a triple stroller and getting all those extra strange looks 

Vet called, bloods were all good  but she said that the white blood cells are slightly elevated but not so much that causes her concern. She said it could mean there are parasites, I asked what sort, she said fleas or worms, told her he defiantly doesn't have worms as I inspect his poo and all get wormed every 3 months and also no fleas, they all get flea'd monthly and also checked. Or there could be an allergic reaction to something, meaning there could be an IBD flare.

She said to keep an extra eye on him, any slight change in himself of being poorly to take him straight back.

She advised to continue with the bloods for the next couple of months to see how things go.

As always the results are being sent to Patricia. I'm sure if she has any different concerns she will contact me.

I do feel so much better about things now, he's fine in himself, poo is all good though he does have the occassional soft bit at the end of the firm, and doing all normal things too. I watch him like a hawk now so he'll get extra hawk watching on top of that.

I hope everyone is doing well and behaving xxx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv
> 
> I'm really hoping Dyl can start making so progress, keeping everything crossed.
> 
> Frank doesn't seem as snotty so hopefully the AB's are kicking in. I'd prefer it if Seb would stick to frogs
> 
> I can just imagine me pushing a triple stroller and getting all those extra strange looks
> 
> Vet called, bloods were all good  but she said that the white blood cells are slightly elevated but not so much that causes her concern. She said it could mean there are parasites, I asked what sort, she said fleas or worms, told her he defiantly doesn't have worms as I inspect his poo and all get wormed every 3 months and also no fleas, they all get flea'd monthly and also checked. Or there could be an allergic reaction to something, meaning there could be an IBD flare.
> 
> She said to keep an extra eye on him, any slight change in himself of being poorly to take him straight back.
> 
> She advised to continue with the bloods for the next couple of months to see how things go.
> 
> As always the results are being sent to Patricia. I'm sure if she has any different concerns she will contact me.
> 
> I do feel so much better about things now, he's fine in himself, poo is all good though he does have the occassional soft bit at the end of the firm, and doing all normal things too. I watch him like a hawk now so he'll get extra hawk watching on top of that.
> 
> I hope everyone is doing well and behaving xxx


That's all good news , Sarah 

I'm glad that Frank is feeling a little better and that my prayers have been answered over Roman's bloods. Just wondering, might he have picked up some sort of worm from anything brought in by Seb since you last treated him ?

I'm sure that you will sleep a little more soundly tonight.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> That's all good news , Sarah
> 
> I'm glad that Frank is feeling a little better and that my prayers have been answered over Roman's bloods. Just wondering, might he have picked up some sort of worm from anything brought in by Seb since you last treated him ?
> 
> I'm sure that you will sleep a little more soundly tonight.


Thanks Sylv 

I hope I'll sleep better tonight!

They were all wormed on Easter Monday. You've got me thinking now, can they have worms and not show any signs? If they'll all being treated can they still get them? The birds that have been brought in haven't been eaten, but if he's come in contact with one could he still catch something?

I do hope I'm not going to be freaked out again like I was at the end of last year!


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv
> 
> I hope I'll sleep better tonight!
> 
> They were all wormed on Easter Monday. You've got me thinking now, can they have worms and not show any signs? If they'll all being treated can they still get them? The birds that have been brought in haven't been eaten, but if he's come in contact with one could he still catch something?
> 
> I do hope I'm not going to be freaked out again like I was at the end of last year!


It was your incident at the end of last year which made me wonder whether Roman could have picked something up. If he had it would give an explanation for the bloods this month. Horses can have some worms without showing obvious signs so I would imagine that cats could too. Does the wormer you use stay in the system for a while preventing re-infection or does it just kill any that are resident at the time of treating?


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv
> 
> I'm really hoping Dyl can start making so progress, keeping everything crossed.
> 
> Frank doesn't seem as snotty so hopefully the AB's are kicking in. I'd prefer it if Seb would stick to frogs
> 
> I can just imagine me pushing a triple stroller and getting all those extra strange looks
> 
> Vet called, bloods were all good  but she said that the white blood cells are slightly elevated but not so much that causes her concern. She said it could mean there are parasites, I asked what sort, she said fleas or worms, told her he defiantly doesn't have worms as I inspect his poo and all get wormed every 3 months and also no fleas, they all get flea'd monthly and also checked. Or there could be an allergic reaction to something, meaning there could be an IBD flare.
> 
> She said to keep an extra eye on him, any slight change in himself of being poorly to take him straight back.
> 
> She advised to continue with the bloods for the next couple of months to see how things go.
> 
> As always the results are being sent to Patricia. I'm sure if she has any different concerns she will contact me.
> 
> I do feel so much better about things now, he's fine in himself, poo is all good though he does have the occassional soft bit at the end of the firm, and doing all normal things too. I watch him like a hawk now so he'll get extra hawk watching on top of that.
> 
> I hope everyone is doing well and behaving xxx


Wonderful news about Ro's bloods you must be so relieved,good also to read that Frank is improving ,time for a small celebration I think 

Don't know what I've done to the quote button I think I broke it.I have been trying to quote your whole post for the last 5 minutes but it keeps going wrong


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> It was your incident at the end of last year which made me wonder whether Roman could have picked something up. If he had it would give an explanation for the bloods this month. Horses can have some worms without showing obvious signs so I would imagine that cats could too. Does the wormer you use stay in the system for a while preventing re-infection or does it just kill any that are resident at the time of treating?


That does make sense 

I give him Drontal, will have a read up and find out. I always thought there were signs and symptoms and going by how he was last year he really wasn't well, then I found out why 

Off to investigate


----------



## nicolaa123

T


sarahecp said:


> That does make sense
> 
> I give him Drontal, will have a read up and find out. I always thought there were signs and symptoms and going by how he was last year he really wasn't well, then I found out why
> 
> Off to investigate


try to chill out as well....if you look to hard you will find something not there....I think with drontal you can give more than just quarterly so any concerns worm again...after a month since the last one. Bloods can be different for a number of reasons..if it was me I would ring Patricia and see what she says and ask her about the worming..

Pleased frankie is better too..these cats eh?

Riley has had an episode today not major to be fair, but his bum was sore after he tried to clean himself which made him growl I calmed it with some tepid water on some kitchen roll and got him to sleep so he left himself alone..it's looking better tonight thankfully..our poor cats eh..


----------



## Forester

I'm so sorry to hear that Riley has had a blip. Is there anything you can put on the sore area to soothe it or would he want to lick at anything put on him ?

Sending ((( Hugs )))


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Wonderful news about Ro's bloods you must be so relieved,good also to read that Frank is improving ,time for a small celebration I think
> 
> Don't know what I've done to the quote button I think I broke it.I have been trying to quote your whole post for the last 5 minutes but it keeps going wrong


Thanks Buffie 

I do feel so relieved  Frank is improving a little bit more though he's still being a bit picky with his food so warmed it up a little, he ate a bit more 

I'm scared to celebrate in case I tempt fate.

Hope Mr M is feeling a bit better and stopped scratching his ears.

Not sure what I did to the quote button, I had posts from other threads  had to delete them.



nicolaa123 said:


> T
> 
> try to chill out as well....if you look to hard you will find something not there....I think with drontal you can give more than just quarterly so any concerns worm again...after a month since the last one. Bloods can be different for a number of reasons..if it was me I would ring Patricia and see what she says and ask her about the worming..
> 
> Pleased frankie is better too..these cats eh?
> 
> Riley has had an episode today not major to be fair, but his bum was sore after he tried to clean himself which made him growl I calmed it with some tepid water on some kitchen roll and got him to sleep so he left himself alone..it's looking better tonight thankfully..our poor cats eh..


Thanks Nicola 

Drontal is fine to give monthly. I've been having a think and you're right about calling Patricia, I will put a call into her in the morning and have a chat and also ask about the worming.

I'm sorry to hear that Riley has had a blip  really hope it's just a one off. Bless him with him sore bum  glad it's looking better tonight.



Forester said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that Riley has had a blip. Is there anything you can put on the sore area to soothe it or would he want to lick at anything put on him ?
> 
> Sending ((( Hugs )))


When Roman's bum got sore I'd put a little Vaseline on it, vet said it was fine, but not sure if I'd do it now in case it upset his tummy.


----------



## buffie

Nicola I think I have broken the quote button,I tried to quote your post but it isn't playing 
Sorry to read that Riley has had a bit of a sore bum,poor man.Trust the gang to all want attention at the same time


----------



## sarahecp

I've had a chat with Patricia this morning, she said the bloods that were done on the 20th that reading showed slight anaemia and some intestinal bleeding, she asked if any blood in his poo, I said there hasn't been and that I inspect it thoroughly.

She said Monday's re-test all looks good. I mentioned about the white bloods and about what Lyndsay had mentioned, I asked about re-worming and told her about Seb bringing birds in etc.

She said she wasn't concerned at all about any of the bloods and not to bother re-worming until it's time. And to continue with bloods for the next couple of months, any concerns to call her straight away.

I feel even better now that I've spoken to her 

I don't want to question Patricia's advice as I do trust her but do you think I should worm them all again just to be on the safe side?


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> I've had a chat with Patricia this morning, she said the bloods that were done on the 20th that reading showed slight anaemia and some intestinal bleeding, she asked if any blood in his poo, I said there hasn't been and that I inspect it thoroughly.
> 
> She said Monday's re-test all looks good. I mentioned about the white bloods and about what Lyndsay had mentioned, I asked about re-worming and told her about Seb bringing birds in etc.
> 
> She said she wasn't concerned at all about any of the bloods and not to bother re-worming until it's time. And to continue with bloods for the next couple of months, any concerns to call her straight away.
> 
> I feel even better now that I've spoken to her
> 
> I don't want to question Patricia's advice as I do trust her but do you think I should worm them all again just to be on the safe side?


Good news that Patricia is happy with all the bloods







,As far as worming is concermed I can understand you wanting to worm Frank and Seb but with Roman's gut history I wouldn't want to worm any more often than absolutely necessary.Worm treatments can have quite an impact on a sensitive digestion.
Obviously Meeko is in a different situation to Roman as he is an only cat with no chance to catch any little creatures and has never had fleas so he has not been wormed since he was around 6 months old,just my opinion on this though.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Good news that Patricia is happy with all the bloods
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,As far as worming is concermed I can understand you wanting to worm Frank and Seb but with Roman's gut history I wouldn't want to worm any more often than absolutely necessary.Worm treatments can have quite an impact on a sensitive digestion.
> Obviously Meeko is in a different situation to Roman as he is an only cat with no chance to catch any little creatures and has never had fleas so he has not been wormed since he was around 6 months old,just my opinion on this though.


Thanks Buffie 

I think you're right and this was the reason we wasn't worming regular last year, my own vet said the same as you and then we had the worm incident in December. When we went for our check up in Jan our vet said to start treating every 3 months to be on the safe side because of Frank and Seb.

I'm going to leave it until he's next due in July, will do Frank and Seb next week just in case.


----------



## Forester

I totally agree with buffie's advice ( as usual ).

Why is it that when you want a bog standard smiley all sorts of exotic options appear? :Kiss :Nurse igeon I know ... little things........:Cat

With a delicate digestive system , as Roman has, I don't think that you want to administer chemicals unless absolutely necessary.

I suspect that my post rate may raise today. I can't wait to try some of these smileys out. Hope that I don't get to use :Vomit :Grumpy :Yuck

ETA cross posted with Sarah above. I was too busy playing with the smileys.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I totally agree with buffie's advice ( as usual ).
> 
> Why is it that when you want a bog standard smiley all sorts of exotic options appear? :Kiss :Nurse igeon I know ... little things........:Cat
> 
> With a delicate digestive system , as Roman has, I don't think that you want to administer chemicals unless absolutely necessary.
> 
> I* suspect that my post rate may raise today. I can't wait to try some of these smileys out. Hope that I don't get to use :Vomit :Grumpy :Yuck*
> 
> ETA cross posted with Sarah above. I was too busy playing with the smileys.


Start a thread called "posting smilies just because I can"


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Start a thread called "posting smilies just because I can"


I tried to implement your instructions in the other thread earlier on, became frustrated, and gave up. I couldn't believe my eyes when all these lovely ones turned up. I feel like a child with a new toy. Later ,I'm going to have another go at trying something from an external source. If I'm posting more garbage than usual its because I'm trying to find an excuse to use some of them.rowning

Apologies for being off topic in this thread.:Spam


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I tried to implement your instructions in the other thread earlier on, became frustrated, and gave up. I couldn't believe my eyes when all these lovely ones turned up. I feel like a child with a new toy. Later ,I'm going to have another go at trying something from an external source. If I'm posting more garbage than usual its because I'm trying to find an excuse to use some of them.rowning
> 
> *Apologies for being off topic in this thread*.:Spam


No such thing as "off topic" on this thread ,well there has been but boy do we need it at times


----------



## sarahecp

Off topic! what's that 

New smileys, I didn't know that! when did they appear!!

Wow! just clicked the icon and there are loads and now I'm getting a few strange looks from the odd bods in my office wondering why I have a huge :Happy on my face! 

So these must be the IBD smileys :Vomit :Hungover :Mooning octor :Nurse rool

I think I'm getting to like the new forum a bit more now, oh hang on, where's the love smiley


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Off topic! what's that
> 
> New smileys, I didn't know that! when did they appear!!
> 
> Wow! just clicked the icon and there are loads and now I'm getting a few strange looks from the odd bods in my office wondering why I have a huge :Happy on my face!
> 
> So these must be the IBD smileys :Vomit :Hungover :Mooning octor :Nurse rool
> 
> I think I'm getting to like the new forum a bit more now, *oh hang on, where's the love smiley*












loads on here.............http://yoursmiles.org/t-heart.php


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> loads on here.............http://yoursmiles.org/t-heart.php


Oooo


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Oooo
> View attachment 229032


----------



## nicolaa123

:BrbGood lord some of us have only been home an hour and see all this jolly ness going on! Ha ha can't quote, not sure can like and have no energy to look for smilies (going through the most horrendous job assessments which so far has been 3 online 2 face to face and one presentation and it's not over yet..eeek

Slyv, Riley seems less sore today..anything on his bum woukd end in his tum..so be a no unfortunately, but water helps him..

Sarah..I wouldn't worm, actually I havnt wormed Riley since I think last October..I may take a sample of his poo to the hospital and see if Mary can find anything..ha!

Buffie,,hope Mr M's ears are better today.....

.......now I'm off to have a large glass of wine!


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> :BrbGood lord some of us have only been home an hour and see all this jolly ness going on! Ha ha can't quote, not sure can like and have no energy to look for smilies (going through the most horrendous job assessments which so far has been 3 online 2 face to face and one presentation and it's not over yet..eeek
> 
> Slyv, Riley seems less sore today..anything on his bum woukd end in his tum..so be a no unfortunately, but water helps him..
> 
> Sarah..I wouldn't worm, actually I havnt wormed Riley since I think last October..I may take a sample of his poo to the hospital and see if Mary can find anything..ha!
> 
> Buffie,,hope Mr M's ears are better today.....
> 
> .......now I'm off to have a large glass of wine!


Good to see Mr R's bum is a bit better(sorry Riley) sounds like you need that glass or 3 of wine ...enjoy









Forgot to say Mr M's not scratching his ears much but the rest of him is still not right,hope he picks up soon


----------



## nicolaa123

I will pour you a glass!

Positive vibes being sent to everyone! And also wine for anyone that wants some hic


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> I will pour you a glass!
> 
> Positive vibes being sent to everyone! And also wine for anyone that wants some hic


----------



## sarahecp

Oh dear I've broken the smilies!!



I'm off for a crafty  in the garden!

Cheers all xxx


----------



## Forester

I'z sloshed, whoops, meant to say that I'm glad that Riley is more comfortable today. Hopefully his bot will stay clean so won't get irritated again. Please give him a cuddle for me.

Glad to hear that Mr M's ears aren't so itchy, lets hope that his tummy improves as well. I can't wait to hear that he's creating havoc in the kitchen throwing things around.

Vibes also being sent that Romans bloods will be completely back to normal next time they are tested.

Its amazing the effect that a few new smiley's can have on the forum. I was not liking the changes at all but I'm starting to warm a little. I've spotted a few changes today that I like. I'm not sure whether they've just been added or whether I just didn't find them before.

I'm feeling quite optimistic that the ranitidine might help Dylan this time. I picked up his new tablets today, ( had a few left from before ) and noticed that they've written on the bottle to be given _at least 30 mins before food._ Since Monday I'd been giving _exactly _30 mins before feeding. Last summer I'm sure that I was just told to give before food. I think that I was usually giving about 15 mins before. He was very poorly after having to fast for the bloods on Monday but has been fine since about Monday lunch time. Shame







that there's no smiley for fingers crossed. Maybe I can find one


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Oh dear I've broken the smilies!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm off for a crafty  in the garden!
> 
> Cheers all xxx


Nooooooooooooo

Im still smoke free


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Nooooooooooooo
> 
> Im still smoke free


Oh I know  (smileys are fixed )

That's great, you've done really well


----------



## Forester

Nicola , I wanted to wish you good luck for the job assessments and to say " Well Done " over the smoking.









I really wasn't concentrating enough last night, those smilies , and your wine, had gone to my head a little. Its amazing how a little bit of fun can affect you. When I saw buffie's gif with the girl whirling around in the chair I could feel the joy and exhilaration.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Nicola , I wanted to wish you good luck for the job assessments and to say " Well Done " over the smoking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really wasn't concentrating enough last night, those smilies , and your wine, had gone to my head a little. Its amazing how a little bit of fun can affect you. When I saw buffie's gif with the girl whirling around in the chair I could feel the joy and exhilaration.


This new forum has defiantly gone to your head Sylv   

On a serious note, I'm glad you're feeling positive and happy  

How's Dyl doing?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> This new forum has defiantly gone to your head Sylv
> 
> On a serious note, I'm glad you're feeling positive and happy
> 
> How's Dyl doing?


Thanks, Sarah   :Cat :Smug :Singing

I think that its the combination of the new smilies and the fact that Dylan has been back on the ranitidine for 74 hours and hasn't been sick since it started. Its a sharp contrast with the hour after we returned from the vets on Monday morning when he was sick 3 times. I'm also feeling buoyed that he's now off the RCSC, which I hated him having, with no apparent ill effects. The (long gone ! ), shine and softness in his coat has returned. I'm also feeling more positive about the chances of establishing what has caused the vomiting. I'm a happy slave. Oh, and the knowledge that I'm soon going to be able to provide Dyl with a safe outdoor run.

I haven't been drinking, honestly.







:Hilarious


----------



## bluecordelia

I have rescored Ivan again and got 47 2weeks after the fire. I have been harsh on 3 areas..limited mobility but meows to go out at night..good/bad days although we are ok in a routine and hygiene as he is washing a bit but bandaged front paws and collar on. I lift him out of tray but he gets in.

this tool is helping. Thank you x


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, that's great news, I'm so pleased to hear this   keeping everything crossed it continues and the meds are doing the trick. Keep it up Dyl  

I can hear your positivity and happiness in your posts  long may it continue  


Nicola, how's Riley doing? I hope he's got over his blip. 

Buffie, how's Mr M? I hope those steroids are working their magic and he's starting to feel better. 

I hope everyone else is doing ok. 

Things here are all good, Ro is still doing ok, Frank's runny nose has dried out, his eyes are not as bad, I'm still bathing them. And Seb, he's behaving!


----------



## Paddypaws

This link was kindly provided by Shoshannah and I think it deserves a place in this thread.
http://www.kind.cats.org.uk/


----------



## havoc

_


Shoshannah said:



Understandably, some owners become upset seeing their pet upset. I do. Sometimes it is better to ask the owner to step out, or to take the pet to a different room

Click to expand...

_This one is of personal interest. It's been a recent and increasing trend at my vets to exclude the owner and I don't understand why when it didn't happen in the past. I have to say it's making me consider my options. The latest involved me being sent out of the room for a junior vet to consult with a senior vet over whether to end the life of a cat. I am deeply upset and offended that I wasn't allowed to be part of that discussion. It was me who questioned whether yet another procedure was the way to go with the junior vet, not the other way round so it isn't as if they were faced with an owner begging for pointless treatment.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

havoc said:


> This one is of personal interest. It's been a recent and increasing trend at my vets to exclude the owner and I don't understand why when it didn't happen in the past. I have to say it's making me consider my options. The latest involved me being sent out of the room for a junior vet to consult with a senior vet over whether to end the life of a cat. I am deeply upset and offended that I wasn't allowed to be part of that discussion. It was me who questioned whether yet another procedure was the way to go with the junior vet, not the other way round so it isn't as if they were faced with an owner begging for pointless treatment.


That does sound rather tactless. 

There's a big difference between asking an owner to step out for a blood sample and to have a discussion regarding treatment. Vets do discuss cases between themselves, but I wouldn't under those circumstances.


----------



## havoc

It is part of an increasing trend in the practice. Until now I'd not been picky about which vet I saw - exactly because I know there are very experienced vets who own the practice who can be consulted. My thoughts had always been that it's counter productive to refuse trainees and juniors the experience. If I stay with that practice I will only ever be prepared to see the senior vets in future. That's the real shame.


----------



## MarkyMar 43

Not sure if this thread is still monitored. My L'il Dude Pokey will turn 18 on June 1, 2015. He is an indoor kitty only. He fell and hurt himself in late March and I had a mobile vet come to he house to treat him. His blood work came back completely in normal ranges and he has been on Metacam since then. The dosage is for a 4kg kitty. He's eating well enough - and he's at that age where I give him whatever he wants. At least stuff that's healthy for him. He seems to be completely drugged out and glassy eyed within an hour of administering.

I think he hurt one of his back legs when he fell - as he has difficulty getting up from a lying down position. His personality is somewhat intact, and he is doing well otherwise. I recognize his age is something I have to deal with not too long down the road, but I'm curious as to what dosage I can reduce him to daily. I've backed it off to 3.8kg dose a week ago. If this is simply arthritis maintenance, what's the minimum dosage I can give him every day for he duration of his much loved existence?

Thank you.


----------



## Polski

Definitely sounds like the dosage could do with coming down if hes practically knocked dopey with it but not a clue on details....Hopefully @Shoshannah will see this and give you her expert opinion.


----------



## MarkyMar 43

Polski said:


> Definitely sounds like the dosage could do with coming down if hes practically knocked dopey with it but not a clue on details....Hopefully @Shoshannah will see this and give you her expert opinion.


Thanks - good to know this thread is still being watched.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Hello!

Metacam is a non-drowsy drug, so this is a very unusual side effect and not one that is reported in the literature. Metacam is the cat equivalent to, say, ibuprofen - and these medications are not really associated with any neurological or sedative effects.

I would suggest you speak to your vet - we cannot give out any dosage information, only your vet can discuss this with you. 

Shosh


----------



## Forester

I thought that I'd give a quick update as Dylan has now been back on the ranitidine for 8 days. Giving the tablet longer to work before feeding seems to be working quite well. Only 1 return. I'm well pleased.. Fingers crossed that the improvement lasts this time.

Blood test results not through yet. I'm expecting them sometime next week.

Hoping that Riley is over his blip, Roman is still o k, Meeko will soon be back to normal and that Blue is well and looking after Ivan.
love to all.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

Hi, my old boy Leo is going to see an oncologist on Thursday, our second consultation. He may have lymphoma or multiple myeloma, or both. All tests so far - even PARR - are inconclusive. So I guess we may need to get a bone marrow biopsy done to get closer to a more precise diagnosis. 
Does anybody have any experience with putting their kitty through this? What's the recovery time after such op?


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv, I'm so pleased Dyl is doing well on the ranitidine   keeping everything crossed the improvement continues. 

Still got everything crossed for the blood results. 


Hoping all masters, mistresses and slaves are all well xx

All is good here, Frank is better, Seb is behaving and Roman has nice poo! Oh, and he's getting cheekier as he gets older  can't believe he'll be 2 in a couple of weeks


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Hi Sylv, I'm so pleased Dyl is doing well on the ranitidine   keeping everything crossed the improvement continues.
> 
> Still got everything crossed for the blood results.
> 
> Hoping all masters, mistresses and slaves are all well xx
> 
> All is good here, Frank is better, Seb is behaving and Roman has nice poo! Oh, and he's getting cheekier as he gets older  can't believe he'll be 2 in a couple of weeks


I'm glad that your boys are all well, and behaving. I, too, can't believe that Roman is now nearly 2, where did the time go?

I've just had the call with Dyl's blood results. It was literally 2 minutes ago so I haven't really digested them yet.

Everything , TLI, folate, cobalamin all normal. The question is where to go now. Barium x ray has been mentioned but I'm not really sure how likely that is to tell us any more. If it will only show the sphincter issue if it is happening at that precise moment the chances of showing anything must be miniscule. The ranitidine definitely seems to be helping at the moment.

I've asked No 3 to send a copy of all of Dyl's results to Langfords for an opinion. She will let me know when she hears back.

love to all IBDers and slaves


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm glad that your boys are all well, and behaving. I, too, can't believe that Roman is now nearly 2, where did the time go?
> 
> I've just had the call with Dyl's blood results. It was literally 2 minutes ago so I haven't really digested them yet.
> 
> Everything , TLI, folate, cobalamin all normal. The question is where to go now. Barium x ray has been mentioned but I'm not really sure how likely that is to tell us any more. If it will only show the sphincter issue if it is happening at that precise moment the chances of showing anything must be miniscule. The ranitidine definitely seems to be helping at the moment.
> 
> I've asked No 3 to send a copy of all of Dyl's results to Langfords for an opinion. She will let me know when she hears back.
> 
> love to all IBDers and slaves


I'm so pleased all Dyl's bloods were normal 

Sorry I'm not sure what to advise re the barium X-ray??

I'm so pleased the ranitidine is helping  how long is Dyl on these for? Can they be used long term?

Pleased No 3 is sending the results to Langfords


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm so pleased all Dyl's bloods were normal
> 
> Sorry I'm not sure what to advise re the barium X-ray??
> 
> I'm so pleased the ranitidine is helping  how long is Dyl on these for? Can they be used long term?
> 
> Pleased No 3 is sending the results to Langfords


I _think _that No 2 wanted Dyl to have the ranitidine indefinitely. I really do want to know what Langfords think that the problem might be and what we should do.

Sorry, brain not functioning well today. Everything that can go wrong has. The base for Dyl's run has turned into the largest ( and likely most expensive ) construction job in the SW and all for 12' by 5' !This has not helped OH who is decidedly poorly. Can't wait for tomorrow.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I _think _that No 2 wanted Dyl to have the ranitidine indefinitely. I really do want to know what Langfords think that the problem might be and what we should do.
> 
> Sorry, brain not functioning well today. Everything that can go wrong has. The base for Dyl's run has turned into the largest ( and likely most expensive ) construction job in the SW and all for 12' by 5' !This has not helped OH who is decidedly poorly. Can't wait for tomorrow.


If it's helping and he can have it indefinitely It's a good thing 

Be interesting to know what Langfords think.

Oh no! I'm sorry you're having a bad day 
Doesn't sound good about the base  I really hope tomorrow is a better one ((((hugs)))) to you xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> If it's helping and he can have it indefinitely It's a good thing
> 
> Be interesting to know what Langfords think.
> 
> Oh no! I'm sorry you're having a bad day
> Doesn't sound good about the base  I really hope tomorrow is a better one ((((hugs)))) to you xx


Thanks for the hugs . The run site which I got OH to agree to in a weak moment is unfortunately on a steep slope. I thought that the work man would build up from the base of the previous tiny run but he instead decided to go down. I have approx. 3 tons of soil on my back lawn at present. I am also now a valued customer of my local builders merchants !. . . and there's loads more still to come. Oh and workman's wage rate has just risen as he has just been told he needs a new boiler.rowning


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks for the hugs . The run site which I got OH to agree to in a weak moment is unfortunately on a steep slope. I thought that the work man would build up from the base of the previous tiny run but he instead decided to go down. I have approx. 3 tons of soil on my back lawn at present. I am also now a valued customer of my local builders merchants !. . . and there's loads more still to come. Oh and workman's wage rate has just risen as he has just been told he needs a new boiler.rowning


I too would have thought they would have built it up from the base, would have been a lot easier and less work.

I hope he doesn't charge you any extra!

xx


----------



## Forester

Hoping that this post finds everyone ( that includes you, Meeko  )feeling fine and dandy. 

My vet ( no 3 ) has heard back from Langfords. They've suggested a selection of meds which could be tried but first we're going to get an ultrasound done by a specialist sonographer. I don't need to worry about not being able to get Dylan to Bristol as my vet is going to arrange for this to be done at their surgery. No 3 seems to think that the ultrasound could show the sphincter issue if that is the problem. It should hopefully give us an idea which part of Dylan's GI system is causing the problem. I'm not sure whether or not the ranitidine has brought about an improvement as Dyl has been sick a couple of times this week. I've been giving him a natures menu treat each time he has his ranitidine but I'm going to discontinue that as they've been reappearing in the returns rool ( sorry ). He's going to have Thrive chicken treats instead- just in case.

I'm both pleased that the u/s might pinpoint the problem area yet also apprehensive about what might be found. I don't yet know when the u/s will take place but I will keep everyone informed.

Love to all masters, mistresses and slaves


----------



## sarahecp

That's great news Sylv   I'm so pleased for you and know how happy you will be about this and especially not having to travel to Brisol too. 

It does make me think, why none of this was tried and done before, No. 3 sounds like she's listening to you and you've found a good one there  I just hope she sticks around. 

I'm sorry that Dyl's had some returns, but hopefully whatever meds Langfords have in mind will help and the u/s will give them more to go on. 

Did they say how long you would wait for the u/s?


All is good here  hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> That's great news Sylv   I'm so pleased for you and know how happy you will be about this and especially not having to travel to Brisol too.
> 
> It does make me think, why none of this was tried and done before, No. 3 sounds like she's listening to you and you've found a good one there  I just hope she sticks around.
> 
> I'm sorry that Dyl's had some returns, but hopefully whatever meds Langfords have in mind will help and the u/s will give them more to go on.
> 
> Did they say how long you would wait for the u/s?
> 
> All is good here  hope everyone else is doing ok xx


Thanks Sarah 

I have suggested ultrasound several times but each time was told that alternatives would show more. I think that the value of this u/s is that it will be done by a specialist and with much more sensitive equipment than my own vets have. No 3 is planning to make enquiries about availability on Monday. She says that it can be done at my convenience, time wise. My only worry is that OH gets no warning at all when he will have one of his " turns". If he does, he will just have to "stay put" till I get back from the vets. I have no-one who could stay with him and he hates anyone to see him when he's ill.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

I'll try to add to this thread as much as possible from our - sadly- practical experience. I opted against the biopsy as he's anaemic and has CKD. Leo started chemo last week. To help him cope with chemo, I'm going to work with a qualified vet who also is a certified animal acupuncturist. If you ever want to find one in your area, look up a member of Association of British Veterinary Acupuncturists 
www.abva.co.uk

My aim is to boost Leo's energy levels and stimulate his appetite.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

Elizabeth and Bertie said:


> Curcumin
> I read up about curcumin about it's apparent potential to help with all kinds of cancers (and indeed other conditions).
> 
> A few sources said that a typical therapeutic dose for a cat is 50-100mg. And doses of over 100mg per kg of body weight had been found to be ulcerogenic (sp?) in rat studies. So, I took a sort of middle ground with JB's dosage. I give 250mg twice a day.
> 
> He seems very healthy! And it would be easy to forget that he has cancer. He has a good appetite, good body condition, and is 'bright eyed and bushy tailed'... I have to deliberately remind myself that our time together may only last a few more months...
> 
> He has shown no digestive problems at all from taking the curcumin. And I can add it to his food and he just gobbles it up. I add a few drops of fish oil and olive oil at the same time as curcumin is fat soluble; and the added fat helps the bio-availability of the curcumin.
> 
> (And Kath, yes, it may be the case that curcumin works particularly well for cats because their livers may metabolise it differently to the way that human livers do...)
> 
> As to whether the curcumin will slow the cancer down, well, I have no idea... Watch this space....
> 
> I will try to find some reference info that I came across for curcumin and add that here.
> 
> Note: Curcumin is contra-indicated if there is liver disease or gall bladder problems; and it should be stopped well in advance of any operation because it can thin the blood and therefore increase bleeding.
> 
> I know that some folks probably think that treating cats with supplements is a bit wacky. But I've lost 3 cats to cancer, and could do little to help them back then; so I really want to try to help JB any way I can.
> 
> Eliz


Here's info on curcumin I ordered from Amazon as a friend was in the US a few days ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Curcu-Gel-Enhanced-Bioavailability-Bio-Curcumin-Turmeric/dp/B00143UU2K#

I read about this particular brand in a blog of a cat owner who treated his kitty - in consultation with his vet - with steroids etc as well as curcumin. I'll edit my post and put a link to that blog.

There is a lot of confusion about the correct dosage for a cat. According to the blog, the cat received 50mg four times a day. Apparently curcumin serum level retention in the blood doesn't last long, stays in the system only for 6 hours. The key here is more bioavailability and less quantity. These curcu-gel tablets from Amazon are very high quality.

Moreover, antioxidant properties of curcumin are helpful in reducing the negative side effects of chemotherapy. Having said all of this, I'll check with Leo's oncologist first before I rush into anything. I'm also going to work with a qualified vet (RCVS) who is a member of the Association of British Veterinary Acupuncturists and a certified herbalist.


----------



## Paddypaws

Great that you have found an acupunturist RDF.
If Leo has an acid stomach due to the CKD you might want to look into Famotodine.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

Paddypaws said:


> Great that you have found an acupunturist RDF.
> If Leo has an acid stomach due to the CKD you might want to look into Famotodine.


Thanks PP, he's on Zitac which is antacid. I give it to him 2-3 times daily.


----------



## huckybuck

@bluecordelia

Mid 40's a week go and now 47 (with you being harsh on him). That's pretty impressive you know!
I have a feeling that his progress will start to gather momentum now and I'll be excited to see what he scores next week xx


----------



## DecantPet

You have raised some critical and interesting points there. I also believe in giving your cat quality life that she will enjoy as opposed to a life of struggle. But you have to try all other avenues before you get to the point of recommending for euthanasia.


----------



## Forester

I managed to get hold of no3 this morning as I hadn't heard from her. She is still trying to make contact with the sonographer. Its seems that no 3 is not 100% certain that the sonographer still does mobile work. I've given her permission to give out my details so that I can be contacted directly to make it easier to make arrangements. Hope is starting to dwindle.

Dyl has been sick a couple of times this week.


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry I've been having trouble getting on the forum......dorm loose hope..where there is a will etc ect could someone else take Dylan so you could stay at home, maybe a pet taxi?


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry I've been having trouble getting on the forum......dorm loose hope..where there is a will etc ect could someone else take Dylan so you could stay at home, maybe a pet taxi?


Hi Nicola, I hope that you, Riley and the hogs are all well .

If I can get this done at my own practice I *will* get Dylan there at the required day/time no matter what else is going on. Vet no 3, bless her, asked where I lived as she said that she could have picked him up if she'd had to go past on her way to work. My concern is that the referral vets' website states that the sonographer has offered a mobile service in the past but doesn't make it clear whether she still does. I'm desperately hoping that she still does. The next closest referral centre which offers mobile ultrasound is 126 miles away according to my searches.


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all  

Sylv, I'm sorry to hear Dyl has been sick a couple of times this week  

I think the quicker you get the u/s done the better, I'm hoping that the sonographer is still mobile but think that Nicola's idea of a pet taxi is a good idea, understand you would want to be there with him, I would want to as well but it's an option for you to think about. 

How lovely and kind of your vet  


Nicola, hope you and Riley are well. 


I hope everyone else is ok xx


----------



## sskmick

Whilst it may be possible to have a kitten neutered earlier than 5 to 6 months I believe it is personal preference. I have owned a male and female kittens (moggies) no way did I want them to have a litter. I am simply a pet owner not breeder. Mine were neutered at 5 months. No unwanted litters, no unwanted behaviour, no unwanted side effects. I wouldn't choose to have any kitten I own in the future to be neutered prior to 5 months unless the kitten has a medical problem.

The benefit imo of early/premature neutering ensures a breeder that their kittens will not be used as kitten machines, assuming breeders take advantage of this medical/surgical technology.

NB I must add the cats I own today and in future are and will be house cats with access to an outdoor pen.


----------



## OrientalSlave

The advice to pet owners from Cats Protection, RSPCA and other reputable bodies in the UK is 4 months. Neutering as young as 13 weeks isn't rocket science and doesn't need special equipment, just the right skills. The vet who neuters my kittens has a tiny practise with quite limited equipment but this is something she regularly does for a local rescue.

The other reason I agree with 4 months is that sometimes a kitten cannot be neutered as planned, and it gives you a bigger margin before puberty strikes if you are aiming for 4 months rather than 5.


----------



## Forester

Thanks for your support ladies 

I've been doing lots of research on the sonographer. I'm sure that I've found the one. She does 2 days in Bristol and 2 days in Swindon. I've seen a mention that a practice in Cheltenham also use her at times so it looks as though she might still be doing mobile.I've e-mailed the sonographer's details to No3, as No3 had told me that she was unable to get a direct line for her.
The idea of a pet taxi is a good one  , I couldn't leave Dylan with anyone though I'd have to be with him. If I can get the u/s done at my own practice I will be there. If I have to go to Chelt . it would be difficult but if I could get a p t it would cut 2 - 3 hours off the time needed for a round trip.

Dylan is no better but I'm feeling more positive about the chances of finding out what is going on.


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv, I'm glad you're feeling more positive about things  

It sounds like the sonographer is still mobile, that's good news. Keeping everything crossed you can get an appt close to home and real soon. 

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

All crossed here for you both..

Riley is ok he has had a sore bum this week, so I've been adding extra water to his food to help things pass through, his stool was quite hard and past couple of days much better, I imagine where he is moulting the hair is also causing his poo to be harder ..

He is happy enough, we are due a check up in June for weight etc and bloods so we will see ..


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> All crossed here for you both..
> 
> Riley is ok he has had a sore bum this week, so I've been adding extra water to his food to help things pass through, his stool was quite hard and past couple of days much better, I imagine where he is moulting the hair is also causing his poo to be harder ..
> 
> He is happy enough, we are due a check up in June for weight etc and bloods so we will see ..


That's sounding positive on the whole, Nicola.

I didn't expect you to ever say that Riley's poo is too hard.:Cat
I'm sorry that his bum is sore, does he still have the polyp.?

I have my fingers, and toes crossed that the forthcoming weight check shows a gain.

How did you job assessment go? I hope that it went well.


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Nicola, sorry to hear Riley has a sore bum  I hope it heals quickly for him. 

Hope all goes well at Riley's check up, let us know how he gets on.

xx


Things are all good here  Ro has been med free for 5 weeks now and all is still going well  he's eating well, he's feeling slightly heavier so think he's put on some more weight, will get him weighed when he goes for bloods on 27th May.

Providing all is still going well he'll be having his vaccs around 12th June, we have to start his vaccs again because he couldn't have his first booster being on the meds, so fingers crossed. 


Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

Hi, I hope that Meeko has brightened up since early this morning and that everyone else is o k.

Dylan's ultrasound has been arranged for tomorrow morning, I'm petrified. I've been reading about complications from fine needle biopsies. Did the rest of you agree to these? The sonographer lectures on how to carry out these procedures but I'm still panicking and feel sick. I desperately need to get to the bottom of Dylan's vomiting but I'm frightened about the actual FNB complications.


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

Buffie, I'm sorry I've missed that Meeko is not so bright  really hope he's ok. Sending lots and lots of positive and healing vibes and hugs to you both xx


Sylv, I'm pleased you have got an appt for tomorrow for Dyl's ultrasound scan, do you have to travel far? What times Dyl's appt? 

To be honest there was no mention of fine needle biopsies when Roman had his scan and nothing was mentioned by Patricia before and after she carried it out. When we had our first appt at Davies I wasn't told what was going to be done, Peter my own vet had phoned Davies to refer Ro, not been home from the vets long that morning when I got a call from Davies to say they'd got an appt for the next day and not to feed him from 8pm that evening. Once at Davies Patricia said they would run full bloods inc EPI testing and do the scan. Scan showed nothing so he was booked in for endoscopy. 

I've not read up on fine needle biopsies, please don't frighten yourself, talk it over with the vet and sonographer tomorrow and hopefully they will reassure you. Are the FNB defiantly going to be done? 

Hope all goes well tomorrow, will be thinking of you and Dyl xx


----------



## Forester

Thanks Sarah 
Its being done at my own vets  so only 25 mins in the car. Its being done by Esther Barrett from Eascott referrals and Vetsnow referrals. She will get there at about 11am but I need to book Dyl in at 8.20. I will need to sign consent for the fine needle biopsies if I'm happy for them to be done. No3 says that they may not be needed if nothing can be found but they would normally like to biopsy any signs of abnormality. She says that they would be much safer done by EB than by them as she does them every day but I'm still panicking. He can have the u/s without FNB's if I so wish. OH says get them done but. . .I've been googling . No3 says the greatest danger is with the liver. I've messaged Shosh for advice but don't know whether she will get to see my message before I need to decide.

Dyl is asleep , oblivious to the fact that there will be no food after 8pm. He usually likes to eat 90% of his food between those hours so I'm expecting complaints all night.


----------



## sarahecp

Fingers crossed you're worrying over nothing  and it's just a precaution it's mentioned about the complications. 

Depending on whether Shosh is studying she usually comes online later in the evenings, fingers crossed she sees your message. I'm friends with her on FB I could always let her know you've pm'd her if you want. 

Hopefully Dyl wakes up soon for some food.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Fingers crossed you're worrying over nothing  and it's just a precaution it's mentioned about the complications.
> 
> Depending on whether Shosh is studying she usually comes online later in the evenings, fingers crossed she sees your message. I'm friends with her on FB I could always let her know you've pm'd her if you want.
> 
> Hopefully Dyl wakes up soon for some food.


Thanks for the offer to contact Shosh for me but please don't disturb her. If she sees it all well and good but her studying is far more important. 

Dyl has woken, gone to his dish and decided not to eat yet..

Interestingly , this isn't the sonographer I found last weekend. Its another one. I might start a thread to ask whether anyone has experiences of abdominal FNB's.

I'll keep you all updated tomorrow.

love to all


----------



## sarahecp

Typical cats  :Smuggrin In hoping Dyl has eaten something now  

Think you should start a thread, others input and experience will help. 

Hope all goes well xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Typical cats  :Smuggrin In hoping Dyl has eaten something now
> 
> Think you should start a thread, others input and experience will help.
> 
> Hope all goes well xx


Thanks Sarah, . I've started a thread about FNBs, no replies yet. I've been googling and am leaning towards agreeing for any organs other than the liver. That could change depending on any advice I get.

Dylan ate a little before dishes were removed at 8pm prompt. Since hearing the " *****" of his dish being moved he has now sat down where the dish "ought" to be and is looking hopeful. He's going to be disappointed.


----------



## Forester

Apologies that the photo's have come out first, and also for the pile of soil on the lawn.




























Well, I'm belatedly updating this after Dylan's ultrasound. Recent updates have taken place on this thread here http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/fine-needle-biopsies-any-experiences.399483/ posted when I was nervous about the prospect of Dylan having biopsies taken .

We now have the official diagnosis of presumed IBD ( about 15 months late  ) and Dylan is also being treated for a suspected gallbladder infection. Under u/s his gallbladder apparently had a " gravelly" appearance. No abnormalities to any organs or lymph nodes was found but there was a small area of his intestines, low down in his system which had a thickened mucosal layer. This thickening was in an area which would apparently not be responsible for Dylan's chronic vomiting. I'm waiting for an e-mailed copy of the sonographer's report to find out more about this.

The sonographer's view was that Dylan definitely doesn't have lymphoma. 









Anyway here are the obligatory baldy belly pics. As you will see its well disguised.


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks for the update Sylv 

And the gorgeous photos of the handsome Dyl 

I bet that baldy belly feels soooooo soft  

Been thinking about the gall bladder infection, as you've done your research, is this something that can be present for a long time without treating?

I'm really hoping that the AB's help Dyl.

xx


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Apologies that the photo's have come out first, and also for the pile of soil on the lawn.
> View attachment 231644
> View attachment 231645
> View attachment 231646
> View attachment 231647
> Well, I'm belatedly updating this after Dylan's ultrasound. Recent updates have taken place on this thread here http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/fine-needle-biopsies-any-experiences.399483/ posted when I was nervous about the prospect of Dylan having biopsies taken .
> 
> We now have the official diagnosis of presumed IBD ( about 15 months late  ) *and Dylan is also being treated for a suspected gallbladder infection.* Under u/s his gallbladder apparently had a " gravelly" appearance. No abnormalities to any organs or lymph nodes was found but there was a small area of his intestines, low down in his system which had a thickened mucosal layer. This thickening was in an area which would apparently not be responsible for Dylan's chronic vomiting. I'm waiting for an e-mailed copy of the sonographer's report to find out more about this.
> 
> The sonographer's view was that Dylan definitely doesn't have lymphoma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway here are the obligatory baldy belly pics. As you will see its well disguised.


Glad to read that both you and Dyl are over yesterdays worrying day,have to say that Dylan is looking very handsome even with his baldy belly.
Who ever shaved it was very kind to him Meeko had most of his unders removed 
Will have a look at "gall bladder infections in cats" does the sonographer think this is "in addition to" or part of Dyls IBD diagnosis.
Nothing has ever shown up or been mentioned at any of the scans done on Meeko.


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry for coming in on this late..at least now with your vet it sounds like you will get some where now, I've no knowledge in gall bladders but owner if they can be removed?


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I bet that baldy belly feels soooooo soft
> 
> Been thinking about the gall bladder infection, as you've done your research, is this something that can be present for a long time without treating?
> 
> I'm really hoping that the AB's help Dyl.
> 
> xx


Thanks Sarah, The belly is very soft and he loves it tickled.

I haven't had much time for research so I wouldn't like to answer your question in case I get it wrong. Gall bladder issues are supposed to be very painful ( one reason why I thought of Meeko's recent problems ) but again gall stones can be present without symptoms.

As I understand, in Dyl's case we are looking at the gall bladder in the absence of anything else being identified. Dyl's gall bladder appeared " gravelly" not as it should be. No3 told me that vomiting can cause backflow of stomach contents into the GB as well as GB problems causing vomiting. I think that its a chicken and egg situation.



buffie said:


> Glad to read that both you and Dyl are over yesterdays worrying day,have to say that Dylan is looking very handsome even with his baldy belly.
> Who ever shaved it was very kind to him Meeko had most of his unders removed
> Will have a look at "gall bladder infections in cats" does the sonographer think this is "in addition to" or part of Dyls IBD diagnosis.
> Nothing has ever shown up or been mentioned at any of the scans done on Meeko.


Thank you , My first reaction was that whoever did Dylan's shaving wanted to conserve energy. Meeko looked very handsome with his baldy belly.Sorry , I've lost my emoticons :-(
As I understand it the gall bladder issue was considered additional but that the IBD diagnosis could have read " don't really know".

Apologies for not being clearer. My line of thought with Meeko was that maybe his vomiting has caused a gall bladder problem and that the gall bladder problem could account for Meeko recently being hunched up and " just not right".I hope that you can follow what I mean. Eloquence has never been a strength of mine.


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> Thanks Sarah, The belly is very soft and he loves it tickled.
> 
> *I haven't had much time for research so I wouldn't like to answer your question in case I get it wrong. Gall bladder issues are supposed to be very painful ( one reason why I thought of Meeko's recent problems ) but again gall stones can be present without symptoms.
> 
> As I understand, in Dyl's case we are looking at the gall bladder in the absence of anything else being identified. Dyl's gall bladder appeared " gravelly" not as it should be. No3 told me that vomiting can cause backflow of stomach contents into the GB as well as GB problems causing vomiting. I think that its a chicken and egg situation*.
> 
> Thank you , My first reaction was that whoever did Dylan's shaving wanted to conserve energy. Meeko looked very handsome with his baldy belly.Sorry , I've lost my emoticons :-(
> As I understand it the gall bladder issue was considered additional but that the IBD diagnosis could have read " don't really know".
> 
> Apologies for not being clearer. My line of thought with Meeko was that maybe his vomiting has caused a gall bladder problem and that the gall bladder problem could account for Meeko recently being hunched up and " just not right".I hope that you can follow what I mean. Eloquence has never been a strength of mine.


From what I have read blood tests and u/s are normally run when testing for gall bladder issues,Meeko had both done 2 weeks ago,all clear, so it would seem unlikely to be related ,but who knows,these bl**dy IBD cats really can throw curve balls


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> From what I have read blood tests and u/s are normally run when testing for gall bladder issues,Meeko had both done 2 weeks ago,all clear, so it would seem unlikely to be related ,but who knows,these bl**dy IBD cats really can throw curve balls


How's Meeko doing today? I'm hoping he's feeling more his usual self.

xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> How's Meeko doing today? I'm hoping he's feeling more his usual self.
> 
> xx


Thanks for asking Sarah,all that seems to be missing is the PITA bit he seems okay otherwise,been in and out checking to see if his new pals are out there.x


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Thanks for asking Sarah,all that seems to be missing is the PITA bit he seems okay otherwise,been in and out checking to see if his new pals are out there.x


Hopefully the PITA bit comes back soon  pleased he seems ok otherwise 

Hope his pals are there and keeping him amused 

xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry for coming in on this late..at least now with your vet it sounds like you will get some where now, I've no knowledge in gall bladders but owner if they can be removed?


Sorry Nicola, I almost missed your post. I hope that you, Riley and the hogs are all doing o k.

TBH I'm all over the place ATM. I've got posts and messages coming at me from all directions and I've got used to not having to multi task anymore.There is so much that I'd like to do at once.

I'm really pleased that I decided to go to a junior at the same practice. We still have the facilities and maybe a little more enthusiasm. I did mention that if we didn't get anywhere I would be forced to go elsewhere.

We don't know for sure that the gallbladder is causing Dyl's vomiting however its something that isn't completely as it should be so we're targeting it in the hope that it will help.

love to you and Riley , as well as to all other masters, mistresses and slaves. Domestic duties call so I'll be back later.

xx


----------



## Forester

I too am looking forward to hearing that Meeko is being a PITA again.


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, the reason I asked about the gallbladder infection and whether it could be present for a long time was it could be that Dyl may have had this a while and only picked up now because of the u/s. 

Just me trying to put things together and find a solution


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Sylv, the reason I asked about the gallbladder infection and whether it could be present for a long time was it could be that Dyl may have had this a while and only picked up now because of the u/s.
> 
> Just me trying to put things together and find a solution


I really don't know  . I keep saying to myself " surely he can't have had a gall bladder infection for over 2 years?". Dylan has vomited to some extent ever since we've had him. He was so food obsessed when we adopted him that he would eat until he was sick every time , if allowed to. He would also vomit and then carry on eating if given the chance. This is why it took so long to come to the conclusion that he had a medical problem rather than just a food obsession. He only stopped eating anything that he could find anywhere ( including bread, cabbage, fruit cake) a few months ago.

I'm amazed that nothing has ever shown up on bloods. His last " full bloods" were done this January .

I don't think that the gall bladder was really seen as a big issue. No3 initially said that they hadn't found anything considered significant. As I understand, its being targeted as it was the only thing which didn't look 100% normal. No3 played down the thickened mucosal layer " low down" as being definitely non contributory but I do want to discus this with her. I was suffering from brain block when she rang and didn't get to speak to her when I collected Dyl.It was lunch time. I think that No3 and No1 were entertaining the sonographer at the time. The sonographer's van was still in the car park.


----------



## Saratzah

It was all going so well.....

We nearly made it a whole two months!

Stan has not vomited but sleeping a lot more and his fur has that spiky look he gets when he's not in top condition.

Started him back on the antibiotics and off to the vets on wednesday


----------



## nicolaa123

Must be the time for it..Riley is back on a course of ab's


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> It was all going so well.....
> 
> We nearly made it a whole two months!
> 
> Stan has not vomited but sleeping a lot more and his fur has that spiky look he gets when he's not in top condition.
> 
> Started him back on the antibiotics and off to the vets on wednesday





nicolaa123 said:


> Must be the time for it..Riley is back on a course of ab's


Oh no! Poor Stan  and poor Riley 

Sorry to hear they are both back on AB's.

Sending lots of positive vibes to both boys and hope the meds work their magic and they're feeling better in no time.

@Saratzah hope all goes well at the vets on Wednesday for Stan.

xx


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> It was all going so well.....
> 
> We nearly made it a whole two months!
> 
> Stan has not vomited but sleeping a lot more and his fur has that spiky look he gets when he's not in top condition.
> 
> Started him back on the antibiotics and off to the vets on wednesday


Oh Saratzah, I'm sorry to hear that Stan is not doing so well and hope that your vets soon manage to get him back on track. Have you done anything differently during the period when he's not been vomiting?
I'll be thinking of you both tomorrow. Please let us know how you get on.



nicolaa123 said:


> Must be the time for it..Riley is back on a course of ab's


Oh no! Poor Riley. Fingers crossed that the ab's work their magic.
How are Riley's weight and appetite , Nicola? I know that you were planning to go to the vets in June but presume that they will have weighed him when prescribing the ab's.

After a week without vomiting Dylan is now returning most days. We're a week into the 2 week ab course so don't know whether we ought to be seeing improvement by now if they were going to help. We do have one change though - instead of " returning" 2 or even 3 piles each time he's now only vomiting one pile   .I really wish that we still had the head banging smilie.
Dyl's is due to run out of ranitidine as well as finishing his abs next week so I'm planning to make an appointment to see No3 next week. I'll leave Dilly at home so that he doesn't get stressed.

love and positive vibes to all


----------



## Saratzah

Thank you for your kind words.

The only thing that has changed in the last fortnight is the four baby birds that Stan has caught!! Though he doesn't eat them!

Since starting the abs on Monday he has bounced back to seemingly full health. Our vet was booked up this week but they've squeezed him in on Thursday as "he's a special case"...he's become a bit of a celeb at the vets!


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv,

Again I'm sorry to hear Dyl has had some returns  

I'm hoping that the AB's may need a little more time to do what they red to do. Still keeping everything crossed. 

i think its a good idea for you to see No.3 without Dyl in case of stressing him. Let us know what she says. 

xx


All is still good with Ro, we're off to have monthly bloods tomorrow afternoon and I'm hoping just the one more next month but we'll see what the results are. 


Stan sounds just like my Seb with the baby birds. 

I'm so pleased the AB's have worked their magic on Stan   I hope he continues to stay ok 

xx


----------



## Saratzah

It must b a ginger thing!! One bird he carried across the garden and left it at the door...I took him to the wildlife rescue centre and it's doing okay!! I like to think Stan rescued it!!


----------



## nicolaa123

Rileys's bum is a lot less sore so much better which is helping the poo issue!! He is great I'm himself and eating very well, will have a full mot in June still..

When I can I do a phone consult to save a vet visit, never thought bout going with out him..great idea!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Rileys's bum is a lot less sore so much better which is helping the poo issue!! He is great I'm himself and eating very well, will have a full mot in June still..
> 
> When I can I do a phone consult to save a vet visit, never thought bout going with out him..great idea!


I'm pleased Riley is great in himself  and his bum is less sore 

Hope all goes well at his MOT in next month, let us know how he gets on.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Rileys's bum is a lot less sore so much better which is helping the poo issue!! He is great I'm himself and eating very well, will have a full mot in June still..
> 
> When I can I do a phone consult to save a vet visit, never thought bout going with out him..great idea!


Brilliant news, Nicola. I'm so pleased that Riley is doing really well . Wishing him luck for his MOT.

I'm due to see No3 on Monday to go through Dylan's ultrasound report and to discuss how to proceed. The abs haven't made any difference at all. The ranitidine seems to work for the meal following administration but not for others. I'm taking a 3 day poo sample with me to be tested for giardia but I think that I'm going to ask them to test for anything that can be tested for. After a week without vomiting he's now being sick almost every day, the worst that he's been other than when on the skippy. No 3 has suggested a 2 week trial of increasing the ranitidine to 3 times daily and only feeding 3 times. I can't see that he'd cope on only 3 meals. Up to the last few days he's been on about 6 each day. Much as I hated him being on them I think that I might ask for steroids again. We can't go on as we are. I weighed him today- 4.92kg down from 5.18 6 weeks ago. Last October he was 5.48kg.

How did Stan get on today? I do hope that the news is positive.

Sending positive vibes for Meeko, Riley, Roman, Blue and Stan as well as all slaves
xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Brilliant news, Nicola. I'm so pleased that Riley is doing really well . Wishing him luck for his MOT.
> 
> I'm due to see No3 on Monday to go through Dylan's ultrasound report and to discuss how to proceed. The abs haven't made any difference at all. The ranitidine seems to work for the meal following administration but not for others. I'm taking a 3 day poo sample with me to be tested for giardia but I think that I'm going to ask them to test for anything that can be tested for. After a week without vomiting he's now being sick almost every day, the worst that he's been other than when on the skippy. No 3 has suggested a 2 week trial of increasing the ranitidine to 3 times daily and only feeding 3 times. I can't see that he'd cope on only 3 meals. Up to the last few days he's been on about 6 each day. Much as I hated him being on them I think that I might ask for steroids again. We can't go on as we are. I weighed him today- 4.92kg down from 5.18 6 weeks ago. Last October he was 5.48kg.
> 
> How did Stan get on today? I do hope that the news is positive.
> 
> Sending positive vibes for Meeko, Riley, Roman, Blue and Stan as well as all slaves
> xx


Rather than steroids why not ask about other imunosurpressent drugs like chlorambucil, I if at your stage would be trying that or another like it (name escapes me now) but definitely a conversation to have with no 3


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Brilliant news, Nicola. I'm so pleased that Riley is doing really well . Wishing him luck for his MOT.
> 
> I'm due to see No3 on Monday to go through Dylan's ultrasound report and to discuss how to proceed. The abs haven't made any difference at all. The ranitidine seems to work for the meal following administration but not for others. I'm taking a 3 day poo sample with me to be tested for giardia but I think that I'm going to ask them to test for anything that can be tested for. After a week without vomiting he's now being sick almost every day, the worst that he's been other than when on the skippy. No 3 has suggested a 2 week trial of increasing the ranitidine to 3 times daily and only feeding 3 times. I can't see that he'd cope on only 3 meals. Up to the last few days he's been on about 6 each day. Much as I hated him being on them I think that I might ask for steroids again. We can't go on as we are. I weighed him today- 4.92kg down from 5.18 6 weeks ago. Last October he was 5.48kg.
> 
> How did Stan get on today? I do hope that the news is positive.
> 
> Sending positive vibes for Meeko, Riley, Roman, Blue and Stan as well as all slaves
> xx


Oh Sylv, I'm sorry to hear that Dyl is being sick more frequently  and that the AB's haven't helped.

I hope all goes well with your visit to No.3 on Monday. I agree with Nicola, it's worth having a chat about Chlorambucil.

xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Rather than steroids why not ask about other imunosurpressent drugs like chlorambucil, I if at your stage would be trying that or another like it (name escapes me now) but definitely a conversation to have with no 3





sarahecp said:


> Oh Sylv, I'm sorry to hear that Dyl is being sick more frequently  and that the AB's haven't helped.
> 
> I hope all goes well with your visit to No.3 on Monday. I agree with Nicola, it's worth having a chat about Chlorambucil.
> 
> xx


Thanks, ladies .
I will have a good chat about other alternatives. I wonder what drugs were on the list of possibilities suggested by Langfords. I have every confidence in No3. to do her best for Dylan. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## Saratzah

Hi all

Tummy wise Stan doing well. Abs have done their thing and he's back to his old self!

He did have to have a metacam inj though due to being chased by a neighbours cat and hurting his shoulder!!

He's usually the one doing the chasing so he must have been feeling off this week!!

Big hugs to you all and ur fur babies xxx


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> Hi all
> 
> Tummy wise Stan doing well. Abs have done their thing and he's back to his old self!
> 
> He did have to have a metacam inj though due to being chased by a neighbours cat and hurting his shoulder!!
> 
> He's usually the one doing the chasing so he must have been feeling off this week!!
> 
> Big hugs to you all and ur fur babies xxx


Oh no poor Stan  I hope the Metacam works it's magic and he's on the mend soon xxx

Pleased all went well at the vets tummy wise and all is good there with Stan


----------



## Forester

Its really great to hear that Stan's tummy is much better. Fingers crossed that the rest of him soon follows suit.

Dylan has been sick again today. I really despair for him. Only the bright side I've seen that several of the " bugs" which can be tested for with the poo samples can cause the thickening of the mucosal layer of the ileum. We need to find the cause of this vomiting *now .rowning
*
love to IBDers everywhere.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Its really great to hear that Stan's tummy is much better. Fingers crossed that the rest of him soon follows suit.
> 
> Dylan has been sick again today. I really despair for him. Only the bright side I've seen that several of the " bugs" which can be tested for with the poo samples can cause the thickening of the mucosal layer of the ileum. We need to find the cause of this vomiting *now .rowning
> *
> love to IBDers everywhere.


Oh Sylv, I'm sorry that Dyl is still vomiting  I'm really hoping and praying that No.3 can get to the bottom of this.

Some parasites/bugs can hang around for a long long time and only clear up with the right meds, some can be a pain to clear up first time especially the likes of giardia and TF.

I believe that Roman having giardia was the cause of IBD, it wasn't picked up on the first few samples and when it was he was treated with a course of Panacur and quite a few different types of AB's, a couple of more samples later both showing clear and he still had dire rear.

I'm keeping everything crossed that something shows in the samples and Dyl can be treated with the right type of meds.

oh that sounds bad, I'm not hoping Dyl has something wrong with him, but you know what I mean, we just need to find out why and a solution.

xx

All is good here, Ro's fed up because I won't take him out in the rain, he's now gone to sleep on the worktop 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are ok xx


----------



## Forester

O K ladies. I'm back from an extra long consultation with No3.
I've told her how worried we are about Dylan and she has told me that she is concerned about him too.

We ran through the u/s report and I appear to have interpreted things reasonably correctly. The sonographers opinion is that Dylan is trying to fight something hence the inflammation. It was hoped that it might be a gallbladder infection but as the abs have done nothing it appears that is not the case. EB ( sonographer) wasn't in any way concerned about the GB . She has apparently seen lots which look similar in cats without any GI problems.

Dyls u/s report referred to a possible, but considered unlikely, neoplasia in the ileum. Apparently she couldn't rule out cancer without full thickness biopsy , but said that the changes were not like any cancer that she has ever seen. She was as confident as she could be , without the FTB, that it isn't cancer.

We discussed, alternative antacids, immunosuppressants, infections of all types, steroids and diets. She doesn't feel that an alternative antacid would make any difference but wants me to continue with the ranitidine for now. We're starting pred again at 1mg twice daily for a week, increasing then to 2mg. The aim is to establish when it starts to become effective at reducing inflammation. She says that it isn't wise to use an immunosuppressant whilst he appears to be trying to fight " something".

I've asked to test for everything that can be tested for with the poo samples. If nothing is found in the poo samples she will consult with Langfords again.

She has the same gut feeling as me that he might have a problem with chicken. She wanted me to try a hydrolysed wet diet but the only one in existence is the dreaded plasticine. I'm therefore on a mission to find some good lamb based foods . She said that it would be normal to only make one change at a time however, as Dilly seems to be deteriorating we can't wait. I have to brace myself for a reaction to the change in diet and hope that it will get better.

Dylan has been o k today, happy and hasn't vomited but yesterday was terrible. He was sick in the morning, spent all day in his bed looking miserable and appeared frightened to eat. Fingers crossed for more days like today.

Hoping that all masters, mistresses and slaves are doing well.


----------



## buffie

Don't quite know what to say,looks like Dyl is another who has them baffled.
All I can say is lets hope the steroids have an effect then at least you will see some improvement which might give you somewhere to work from.

If only they would eat all the "right" food it might just make this a bit easier on us.

I really feel totally inadequate with my reply but don't know what else I can suggest ,hope Dyl has a more good days and keeps the returns down to a bare minimum,Sending positive vibes your way and hoping you are taking care of yourself too Sylv xx


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Don't quite know what to say,looks like Dyl is another who has them baffled.
> All I can say is lets hope the steroids have an effect then at least you will see some improvement which might give you somewhere to work from.
> 
> If only they would eat all the "right" food it might just make this a bit easier on us.
> 
> I really feel totally inadequate with my reply but don't know what else I can suggest ,hope Dyl has a more good days and keeps the returns down to a bare minimum,Sending positive vibes your way and hoping you are taking care of yourself too Sylv xx


buffie, you really shouldn't entertain the thought that your reply is _inadequate _in any way. . Having someone who understands what its like to go through this is priceless and the best support anyone can get.. I would have been " locked away" months ago without you, Nicola and Sarah. We all know that these cats don't seem to obey the usual laws of nature.

I'm confident that the steroids will eventually bring about some improvement. I had hoped that No 3 would give him a higher dose but she wants to acclimatise his system to them. I know that I didn't like Dylan being on steroids before but right now we just need to stop him going downhill.

We're planning to have 2 or 3 lamb based foods to use so that there is always something to turn to if he does his trick of suddenly refusing one.

The vibes are greatly appreciated. I feel better ( I think ) knowing that No3 is treating this as a matter of urgency . She is also prepared to refer back to Langfords for further advice. I am so glad that I found her eventually, even if it did come a year too late.

How is Meeko today?, I have my fingers crossed that he is continuing to improve.


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, I'm glad you had a good consult with No.3 and you let her know all your concerns, I think it does sometimes help to open up, she know how worried and concerned you are but to let her know your fears she's there to help, guide and reassure you, she really does sound like a good vet and one that is willing to try her best for Dyl. 

I'm really hoping that the Pred helps and also the lamb diet. Keeping everything crossed Dyl starts to improve. Sending lots and lots of positive vibes Dyl's way. 

Do you know when the results to the samples will be back? I remember I had to wait up to 2 weeks for some and others were a bit quicker. 

Love and hugs to you both xx


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> buffie, you really shouldn't entertain the thought that your reply is _inadequate _in any way. . Having someone who understands what its like to go through this is priceless and the best support anyone can get.. I would have been " locked away" months ago without you, Nicola and Sarah. We all know that these cats don't seem to obey the usual laws of nature.
> 
> I'm confident that the steroids will eventually bring about some improvement. I had hoped that No 3 would give him a higher dose but she wants to acclimatise his system to them. I know that I didn't like Dylan being on steroids before but right now we just need to stop him going downhill.
> 
> We're planning to have 2 or 3 lamb based foods to use so that there is always something to turn to if he does his trick of suddenly refusing one.
> 
> The vibes are greatly appreciated. I feel better ( I think ) knowing that No3 is treating this as a matter of urgency . She is also prepared to refer back to Langfords for further advice. I am so glad that I found her eventually, even if it did come a year too late.
> 
> How is Meeko today?, I have my fingers crossed that he is continuing to improve.


If there is anything positive to come out of all of this it is that we are all here for each other,as you say being able to talk with someone who understands how we are feeling is priceless.
To have confidence in the vet you are dealing with helps so much there is nothing worse than feeling like an "outsider" Hoping to hear good things about Dyl soon.
As for Mr M he is going from strength to strength ,he has been up to no end of mischief today and has finally,well about 2 hours ago,decided its bedtime


----------



## buffie

Spoke to soon the little *** is back up and out in his "lean to" run at the back door watching moths/mice /fox cubs and anything else that happens to venture past,looks like a long night  Oh how I've missed these nights


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> If there is anything positive to come out of all of this it is that we are all here for each other,as you say being able to talk with someone who understands how we are feeling is priceless.
> To have confidence in the vet you are dealing with helps so much there is nothing worse than feeling like an "outsider" Hoping to hear good things about Dyl soon.
> As for Mr M he is going from strength to strength ,he has been up to no end of mischief today and has finally,well about 2 hours ago,decided its bedtime


You're absolutely right Buffie, we are not alone in this, we're all here for each other, I may not be able to help and advise but I can support, listen and be a virtual shoulder to cry on, will always be here for you all.

xxx



buffie said:


> Spoke to soon the little *** is back up and out in his "lean to" run at the back door watching moths/mice /fox cubs and anything else that happens to venture past,looks like a long night  Oh how I've missed these nights


Woohoo! 

Keep it up Meeko :Happy :Happy

I'm soooooo happy Mr M is back to his usual self :Happy :Happy :Happy

xx


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> You're absolutely right Buffie, we are not alone in this, we're all here for each other, I may not be able to help and advise but I can support, listen and be a virtual shoulder to cry on, will always be here for you all.
> 
> xxx
> 
> Woohoo!
> 
> Keep it up Meeko :Happy :Happy
> 
> *I'm soooooo happy Mr M is back to his usual self :Happy :Happy :Happy*
> 
> xx


Cant believe I'm grateful to see stuff flying off shelves again,its the best sight in the world


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> If there is anything positive to come out of all of this it is that we are all here for each other,as you say being able to talk with someone who understands how we are feeling is priceless.
> To have confidence in the vet you are dealing with helps so much there is nothing worse than feeling like an "outsider" Hoping to hear good things about Dyl soon.
> As for Mr M he is going from strength to strength ,he has been up to no end of mischief today and has finally,well about 2 hours ago,decided its bedtime


You are so right buffie. I'd never have coped without my "IBD friends"( sorry, lost smileys and have to dash to a hospital apt in a minute) . I also hope that, at some time , I may have helped someone else, even if only by being there. Its the feeling od not being alone that helps.



buffie said:


> Spoke to soon the little *** is back up and out in his "lean to" run at the back door watching moths/mice /fox cubs and anything else that happens to venture past,looks like a long night  Oh how I've missed these nights


The best news I've heard all day . where have my smileys gone?



sarahecp said:


> You're absolutely right Buffie, we are not alone in this, we're all here for each other, I may not be able to help and advise but I can support, listen and be a virtual shoulder to cry on, will always be here for you all.
> 
> xxx
> 
> Woohoo!
> 
> Keep it up Meeko :Happy :Happy
> 
> I'm soooooo happy Mr M is back to his usual self :Happy :Happy :Happy
> 
> xx


Thanks, Sarah. We do all truly feel each others ups and downs as if they were our own. Sorry, have to dash, will be back later.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Sylv, I'm glad you had a good consult with No.3 and you let her know all your concerns, I think it does sometimes help to open up, she know how worried and concerned you are but to let her know your fears she's there to help, guide and reassure you, she really does sound like a good vet and one that is willing to try her best for Dyl.
> 
> I'm really hoping that the Pred helps and also the lamb diet. Keeping everything crossed Dyl starts to improve. Sending lots and lots of positive vibes Dyl's way.
> 
> Do you know when the results to the samples will be back? I remember I had to wait up to 2 weeks for some and others were a bit quicker.
> 
> Love and hugs to you both xx


Thanks Sarah, as with buffie ( as well as Nicola and Susan ) its just great to know that you are there routing for us.

No3 was brilliant. She understands how I feel and I also think that she genuinely cares about Dyl too. I just wish that I'd found her sooner. A lamb diet is not her first choice, she wanted something hydrolysed but as the only hydrolysed wet seems to be the z/d, lamb will have to do. I explained how he has previously reacted to venison ( 2 foods) and skippy but seemed o k with the Macs sensitive lamb till he decided that he wouldn't eat it.  I rarely buy lamb for us but I will be buying some for Dyl this afternoon to tide us over till supplies arrive.

We're currently on 52 hours since the last " return" but you know Dyl, he will go a week or longer ( just long enough to make me think that something is working ) before he starts returning daily or more again. He does thankfully seem generally happy and comfortable again today and is eating with reasonable confidence. It upsets me so much when he acts as if he's frightened of his dish.

I'm not sure when No3 said the poo results would be back but she's going to ring me. I only have 11 days worth of pred so she must be expecting it to be before then. I will let you know as soon as I hear.

Those hugs and vibes must be working as both Dyl and I feel better today.

love and positive vibes to all masters, mistresses and slaves.


----------



## sarahecp

I'm pleased you and Dyl feel better today and there have been no more returns  

Keeping everything that I can possibly cross that the speed helps Dyl. 

Love and hugs to you both xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> I'm pleased you and Dyl feel better today and there have been no more returns
> 
> Keeping everything that I can possibly cross that the speed helps Dyl.
> 
> Love and hugs to you both xx


Thanks Sarah . It really does help to know that you are routing for us.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks Sarah . It really does help to know that you are routing for us.


You're welcome  xx

I've just re-read my post and just noticed it says speed  and not Pred   bl00dy auto correct on my phone  

It did give me a chuckle though :Smuggrin


----------



## Forester

I'm glad that you've clarified that Sarah.:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious

I was wondering what you thought that he was on.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm glad that you've clarified that Sarah.:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious
> 
> I was wondering what you thought that he was on.


:Smuggrin :Smuggrin :Smuggrin


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv @Forester how's Dyl doing? I really hope he's ok and there's been no more returns.

@buffie how's Mr M? I hope he's still being a PITA 

@nicola123 I hope Riley is ok

@Saratzah I hope Stan is ok

And @bluecordelia I hope Blue is doing ok too

xxxx

Ro's bloods came back all good and he's still doing well  I'm going to have one more done at the end of June, Patricia said to continue for 2 months after he'd come off Chlorambucil.

Now to tackle Frank's dire rear  I'm so hoping he's not going to be joining the IBDer's club, there's been no more poo in the tray, maybe it's a good sign, maybe not, oh I wish he and Seb were innies or at least use the tray rather than go outside.

I go on poo patrol daily in my garden and the neighbours either side, they've given me permission  I've only picked up a few normal poo's. Frank only spends time in our garden and the neighbours on one side. So maybe he's gone the other way and not been at all!


----------



## buffie

Great news Sarah so pleased to read that Ro's bloods are good and that he is doing okay  
I do hope Frankie is on the mend,it must be really difficult to keep tabs on "offerings" when they are not done in the litter tray and we definitely do not need any more members of the IBD club 
Meeko is still doing well,not so keen to eat at the moment but I think that is more "fussy cat" than ill cat 
Hope everyone else is doing okay


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Great news Sarah so pleased to read that Ro's bloods are good and that he is doing okay
> I do hope Frankie is on the mend,it must be really difficult to keep tabs on "offerings" when they are not done in the litter tray and we definitely do not need any more members of the IBD club
> Meeko is still doing well,not so keen to eat at the moment but I think that is more "fussy cat" than ill cat
> Hope everyone else is doing okay


Thanks Buffie 

It is difficult and to keep him in will not do his stress levels any good.

I'm so glad Meeko is doing well  come on Meeko, stop being fussy and eat your grub


----------



## bluecordelia

sorry not been around but most of you know about my awful but now resolving time. Bluey is fine...heffalumping around and bowels ok. Slight very loose poops every now and then but she does go out now and I think may eat some of her kills. 

Hope everyone ok...xxxx


----------



## Forester

Apologies offered for being AWOL. Life has been manic and I haven't had a chance to post.

Its great news to hear that Roman's bloods were all o k and that he's doing really well. Hopefully , once the next bloods have passed you will be able to relax and enjoy your beautiful boy instead of being always " on guard". I also hope that Frankie's dire rear will now have cleared up and you will be able to end the poo patrol. 

I'm so pleased to hear that Meeko is doing well. I understand how stressful it can be to a slave when he/she who is in charge is not happy with the menu. I'm sure that they pick up and capitalise on our stress over them not eating. I don't know how you react buffie, but I tend to panic if Dyl does not eat because the longer he goes without eating the more likely he is to vomit next time.

Its great to hear that Blue is also doing well. Susan, I think that you are bound to get minor upsets when she supplements her diet with items of her own choosing. Whilst she's doing that she is however having a more natural lifestyle than many cats, it has to have more benefits than disadvantages. I must admit to having felt quite emotional over your photos of Blue keeping a watchful eye over Ivan.

Good wishes also being sent for Riley and Stan.

Dylan does not seem too happy about his change to a lamb only diet. I think that I'll probably give up on the Macs Sensitive lamb which is a shame as I would have liked that to be his main food. Our JWB lamb arrived today. Its only 35% lamb but he does like it. I have everything crossed that he can keep it down. We've had 1 vomit so far this week. I don't know when it was produced but suspect that it was whilst I was out yesterday evening.

I'm hoping that having an outside run will help Dylan. Its been ordered now but sadly will take about 6 weeks. I can't wait to see his reaction.

Sending good wishes to all and hoping that everyone has a great weekend .


----------



## bluecordelia

Blue has been just fine with Iv now he doesn't smell so sooty/smokey. I have just had to shoo her away as she was doing her death grip hold. Blue is great outside and often spotted sat on car roofs, banks and anything up high. The birdies tweet a lot when she is out on the prowl. I have kept her on a high protein diet and the odd occasion she gets hold of Ivan's secret kibble stash quite usually it is vomited back up whole almost like a hairball. I feel she might be more intolerant to wheat / grain but she is growing and is a big girl now. I will to get a sneaky pic in on Ivan's thread as I cant still upload pics. Iphone coming later in the year.

x


----------



## Jiskefet

DecantPet said:


> You have raised some critical and interesting points there. I also believe in giving your cat quality life that she will enjoy as opposed to a life of struggle. But you have to try all other avenues before you get to the point of recommending for euthanasia.


I do not agree.
A cat has no sense of time or future in the way we have.
If a human patient has to undergo a long and harrowing treatment in order to get well again and have a relatively healthy life after the ordeal, he can brace himself for it, knowing that it is only temporary and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

A cat does not know this, all he knows is the pain and torment he is undergoing, and for all he knows, it is how his life now is, and will be from now on.
In my opinion, there is a limit to the extent of the length and intensity of suffering you could - and should - let a cat undergo to nurse him back to health. If his score were to be 35 or lower for a considerable time, I would call it quits, even if he could be totally cured.

If the cat is suffering and showing his slaves he does not want to live like this, who are we to say he has to go on, because WE cannot let go, even if the cat, himself, is ready to???? The mere fact that we can treat, and possibly cure, a disease or injury, does not necessarily mean we should. Nor does the fact that we can manage pain to such an extent that we can prolong a life with 'not too much discomfort' mean that we should. We must always ask ourselves: are we doing this for our pet, or for ourselves?? Does our cat really want to be kept in his present condition for a longer time, does he really want to be put through a prolonged period of agony in order to, some time in the future, be healthy again, or are we kidding ourselves because we are unwilling to make that final sacrifice and free our beloved pet from his suffering?

Personally, I had to make the decision to let go with Tuppence, while I was totally unprepared. She could have been treated for her disease, but she was a very nervous, traumatised cat, and the continuous treatment would have upset her very much, so I decided against it. With my old lady Precious, we saw it coming, she was gradually getting worse, and she told us when she had had enough. I would have loved to have her around a little longer, but we respected her wish and helped her take that final step.

But I also experienced the exact opposite with little Gaudi. He was clearly suffering, with no hope in hell of ever getting better, and I was quite ready to release him from this life if he wanted. It hurt so bad to see him like that, so sick and frail, his score was definitely well under 35, but the little man would not give up, he still had far too much love to give - and receive. By the time HE finally decided it was time to give in to his illness, he was already fading away. We had him euthanised, but it was hardly necessary. The sedation alone was enough to send him on his way.


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> sorry not been around but most of you know about my awful but now resolving time. Bluey is fine...heffalumping around and bowels ok. Slight very loose poops every now and then but she does go out now and I think may eat some of her kills.
> 
> Hope everyone ok...xxxx


Glad to hear Blue is doing fine 

Roman tends to have a bit of soft poo at the end of the firm bit occasionally, his referral vet said it was nothing to be concerned about.

Blues' loose ones are probably caused by her kills!



Forester said:


> Apologies offered for being AWOL. Life has been manic and I haven't had a chance to post.
> 
> Its great news to hear that Roman's bloods were all o k and that he's doing really well. Hopefully , once the next bloods have passed you will be able to relax and enjoy your beautiful boy instead of being always " on guard". I also hope that Frankie's dire rear will now have cleared up and you will be able to end the poo patrol.
> 
> I'm so pleased to hear that Meeko is doing well. I understand how stressful it can be to a slave when he/she who is in charge is not happy with the menu. I'm sure that they pick up and capitalise on our stress over them not eating. I don't know how you react buffie, but I tend to panic if Dyl does not eat because the longer he goes without eating the more likely he is to vomit next time.
> 
> Its great to hear that Blue is also doing well. Susan, I think that you are bound to get minor upsets when she supplements her diet with items of her own choosing. Whilst she's doing that she is however having a more natural lifestyle than many cats, it has to have more benefits than disadvantages. I must admit to having felt quite emotional over your photos of Blue keeping a watchful eye over Ivan.
> 
> Good wishes also being sent for Riley and Stan.
> 
> Dylan does not seem too happy about his change to a lamb only diet. I think that I'll probably give up on the Macs Sensitive lamb which is a shame as I would have liked that to be his main food. Our JWB lamb arrived today. Its only 35% lamb but he does like it. I have everything crossed that he can keep it down. We've had 1 vomit so far this week. I don't know when it was produced but suspect that it was whilst I was out yesterday evening.
> 
> I'm hoping that having an outside run will help Dylan. Its been ordered now but sadly will take about 6 weeks. I can't wait to see his reaction.
> 
> Sending good wishes to all and hoping that everyone has a great weekend .


Thanks Syl 

I think I will definatly start to feel better once next months bloods are over and when he starts his vaccs next Friday. And once Frankie and his lump and poo issues are sorted I will feel even better.

I'm really pleased that Dyl has had only one return this week, let's hope there's more improvements and he continues to do well.

These cats really don't like to eat what we want them to eat, its a bit like Frank and Seb becoming Felix addicts, I've started mixing in a bit of skippy into their food but they're having none of it, Seb will eat it sometimes if he's being brave. Frank is still on his boiled chicken and fish. I'm keeping everything crossed the JWB lambs agrees with Dyl.

Looking forward to hearing all about Dyl and his new run, those 6 weeks will fly by.



bluecordelia said:


> Blue has been just fine with Iv now he doesn't smell so sooty/smokey. I have just had to shoo her away as she was doing her death grip hold. Blue is great outside and often spotted sat on car roofs, banks and anything up high. The birdies tweet a lot when she is out on the prowl. I have kept her on a high protein diet and the odd occasion she gets hold of Ivan's secret kibble stash quite usually it is vomited back up whole almost like a hairball. I feel she might be more intolerant to wheat / grain but she is growing and is a big girl now. I will to get a sneaky pic in on Ivan's thread as I cant still upload pics. Iphone coming later in the year.
> 
> x


I'm really pleased Blue has been better with Ivan  Roman does that death grip hold with Seb, think it might be a MC thing.

So pleased Blue is doing well and growing 

Will look out for your sneaky pic of Blue 

Once you get an iPhone you will never look back


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry..I used to get an update on threads but now not?

Slyv forgive me if you have but have you tried (well Dylan) on duck? Or even pigeon? 

Sarah great news on Roman let's hope all bloods keep clear

Meeko..well still being magnificent

Blue be gentle with Ivan..

Riley well he is off ab's and so far so good..

Frank..come on we don't need another member..firm it up


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry..I used to get an update on threads but now not?
> 
> Slyv forgive me if you have but have you tried (well Dylan) on duck? Or even pigeon?
> 
> Sarah great news on Roman let's hope all bloods keep clear
> 
> Meeko..well still being magnificent
> 
> Blue be gentle with Ivan..
> 
> Riley well he is off ab's and so far so good..
> 
> Frank..come on we don't need another member..firm it up


Thanks Nicola 

I'm pleased to hear Riley is off the AB's and doing well


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry..I used to get an update on threads but now not?
> 
> Slyv forgive me if you have but have you tried (well Dylan) on duck? Or even pigeon?
> 
> Sarah great news on Roman let's hope all bloods keep clear
> 
> Meeko..well still being magnificent
> 
> Blue be gentle with Ivan..
> 
> Riley well he is off ab's and so far so good..
> 
> Frank..come on we don't need another member..firm it up


I don't know how I managed to miss this post . I must make an effort to look in rather than just thinking " nothing looks to have changed"

I'm so pleased to hear that Riley is now off his AB's. Fingers crossed that he won't be needing them again, although its great that they have worked. Dylan and I send positive vibes for his upcoming MOT. We hope that he passes with flying colours.

@nicolaa123 , we haven't tried duck or pigeon, though Dylan has had foods with duck in so it wouldn't be " novel "for him. Are there any single protein , grain / nasty free, duck foods out there?

The lamb diet plus steroids and antacids has, thank goodness:Angelic ,brought about a considerable improvement. Its also turned Dylan into a naughty little horror, climbing curtains and leaping off the bookcase onto anyone sat on the sofa. . Its made me realise just how poorly he must have been feeling recently. OH has been complaining " you let that cat do just as he likes" - well , he does live here and he has a very soft belly :Hilarious.

Its looking suspiciously as though Dylan has had a problem with chicken all along.( as has been my gut instinct , please excuse the pun :Shamefullyembarrased.

No 3 rang to say that all of the poo tests were clear so still no definite answer what his body is reacting to. We're continuing with the lamb only / pred / ranitidine to see if it will , in time, completely eliminate the vomiting.

Sending love, and " stay well" vibes for Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Stan as well as all slaves.


----------



## nicolaa123

What about raw or lightly cooked pigeon? I'm still considering third option with Riley if he ever decides raw meat is meat!! Maybe I will get one of them da birds and use a pigeon attacthemnt (just kidding)

On different note, I started work at a new branch today, I also had my assessment.............










































I start at my new branch in two weeks


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> What about raw or lightly cooked pigeon? I'm still considering third option with Riley if he ever decides raw meat is meat!! Maybe I will get one of them da birds and use a pigeon attacthemnt (just kidding)
> 
> On different note, I started work at a new branch today, I also had my assessment.............
> 
> I start at my new branch in two weeks


Way hey . Congratulations. I'm so pleased for you and hope that it goes well.

Will you be closer to home/ Riley ?. I do hope that you've bought him something nice in order to celebrate.

I've promised No3 that I ( Dylan ) will stick to lamb for the foreseeable future. The plan is to try to achieve 3 months without vomiting using lamb and the steroids and then to start reducing the steroids. I really hope that this is not another false dawn.

Do you have a secret pigeon supply or are you planning to train Riley to catch his own LOL ( me joking now ) ? I remember the nightmare of trying to keep a constant supply of rabbits for Dylan . Just before Christmas a friend sent her husband out with instructions not to come home till he'd got some for me.

How did Riley get on with Bill and Emu? I seem to think that you had another variety to try as well but can't remember which it was.

Its great to see you about more @nicolaa123. I've missed you.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I don't know how I managed to miss this post . I must make an effort to look in rather than just thinking " nothing looks to have changed"
> 
> I'm so pleased to hear that Riley is now off his AB's. Fingers crossed that he won't be needing them again, although its great that they have worked. Dylan and I send positive vibes for his upcoming MOT. We hope that he passes with flying colours.
> 
> @nicolaa123 , we haven't tried duck or pigeon, though Dylan has had foods with duck in so it wouldn't be " novel "for him. Are there any single protein , grain / nasty free, duck foods out there?
> 
> The lamb diet plus steroids and antacids has, thank goodness:Angelic ,brought about a considerable improvement. Its also turned Dylan into a naughty little horror, climbing curtains and leaping off the bookcase onto anyone sat on the sofa. . Its made me realise just how poorly he must have been feeling recently. OH has been complaining " you let that cat do just as he likes" - well , he does live here and he has a very soft belly :Hilarious.
> 
> Its looking suspiciously as though Dylan has had a problem with chicken all along.( as has been my gut instinct , please excuse the pun :Shamefullyembarrased.
> 
> No 3 rang to say that all of the poo tests were clear so still no definite answer what his body is reacting to. We're continuing with the lamb only / pred / ranitidine to see if it will , in time, completely eliminate the vomiting.
> 
> Sending love, and " stay well" vibes for Blue, Meeko, Riley, Roman and Stan as well as all slaves.


Sylv, I'm really pleased to hear Dyl is improving on the lamb and combination of meds   keeping everything crossed it continues.

And pleased to hear he's got he's being a loony cat again 

Good news on the poo results too  xx



nicolaa123 said:


> What about raw or lightly cooked pigeon? I'm still considering third option with Riley if he ever decides raw meat is meat!! Maybe I will get one of them da birds and use a pigeon attacthemnt (just kidding)
> 
> On different note, I started work at a new branch today, I also had my assessment.............
> 
> I start at my new branch in two weeks


Woohoo!! Huge congratulations!! And well done xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Good news on the poo results too  xx


I suppose it is . I would, honestly, have liked them to find something which could explain the vomiting. No 3 says that the ileul ???? inflammation is too low down in the system to cause vomiting. If it was going to affect him it would give him dire rear. Never mind , my little horror is back   . I saw him check that I was watching him yesterday evening as he prepared to jump from his 6' high tree onto the top of the door .

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves xx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Sylv, I'm really pleased to hear Dyl is improving on the lamb and combination of meds   keeping everything crossed it continues.
> 
> And pleased to hear he's got he's being a loony cat again
> 
> Good news on the poo results too  xx
> 
> Woohoo!! Huge congratulations!! And well done xx





sarahecp said:


> Sylv, I'm really pleased to hear Dyl is improving on the lamb and combination of meds   keeping everything crossed it continues.
> 
> And pleased to hear he's got he's being a loony cat again
> 
> Good news on the poo results too  xx
> 
> Woohoo!! Huge congratulations!! And well done xx


Hmm why can't I multi quote?

Slyv, Riley was on house arrest until the family of great tits fledged and flew away...now the jackdaws and magpies are getting on him..he ran in earlier as they were "picking" on him! He miaows at pigeons but that's about it!

My branch is further away but much better...I do also have a cat sitter that if needed can come and feed him if I would be late or away. I'm going on a hedgehog course so will be away for a weekend but Riley will be well looked after..interview for the cat sitter was probably more intense than mine for the new role ha! But Riley went to her and dropped to show his tummy..yeah he will be fine!!!!

Thank you Sarah..hope all yours are ok


----------



## Saratzah

Hi everyone

Glad to see generally good news!

Stan continues to stay well. After his last blip he's cut down on his wet food and seems to favour the dry!! 

He's loving the warmer weather and stays out most of the day coming in earlier at night which is when his nemesis is around....but thankfully it doesn't seem to be stressing him!

Sending love and hugs to you all xx


----------



## Forester

Saratzah said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Glad to see generally good news!
> 
> Stan continues to stay well. After his last blip he's cut down on his wet food and seems to favour the dry!!
> 
> He's loving the warmer weather and stays out most of the day coming in earlier at night which is when his nemesis is around....but thankfully it doesn't seem to be stressing him!
> 
> Sending love and hugs to you all xx


Great news, @Saratzah. Fingers crossed that Stan continues to do well.

I'm hoping that Blue, Meeko, Riley , Roman and Rosie are also doing well and not giving any cause for concern.

Dylan was sick this morning but it was the first for 10 days. I'm hoping that we are now making progress and that this isn't just another false dawn ( he seems rather practiced at those  ). Can't wait to get Dylan's outdoor run, we're counting down the days , but hope that it will give him more interest in life.

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves.


----------



## lillytheunicorn

My vet neutered both my rescue moggie so at 16 weeks, they came home with the instructions don't let them run around and feed them a teaspoon of bland food like boiled chicken. Well they came home charged round the house with me trying to encourage them just to settle. Ate their teaspoon of food each then looked at me like seriously we didn't get any breakfast and you expect me to only eat that tiny amount. I gave in and they each finished off a tin of applaws, then promptly fell asleep until morning.

My Norwegian was neutered at 12 weeks before I got him, in my personal opinion with pedigrees early neutering before they come home is preferential. As they usually stay with mum until they are older, fatty went to the vets with his siblings, he was done and then recovered in the cage with his brother and sister as they did them one after the other. They then went home to where they had be born and back to mum. Which would be much less stressful than being neutered after only living with us for a month. He now weighs 6.2kg is bigger than his dad so it certainly hasn't affected him. He did go through a stage where his head was small in relation to his body and judges told me that it was because he was neutered too young. His head has now caught up with his body and has received Best in show nominations. 

My next female kitten will be neutered before I get her at 13 weeks old, she will stay a little longer with the breeder being a girl and won't come home until her and the vet is happy with her.


----------



## OrientalSlave

I think early neutering is as preferable with moggies as with pedigrees.


----------



## lillytheunicorn

I was really happy to have my moggies neutered at 16 weeks when I got them at 8 weeks, I am just not so sure I would have them done at 12 weeks. Only because they would have been with me for a month.


----------



## CarerQuie

When I first took Belle to the vet,they were saying 6 months-I think more because she was tiny.

When I took her for her second jabs, they revised downwards to 5 months because she had gained weight well.

When I phoned up to book the pre-spay check, the receptionist said that they do it from 4 months.:Banghead

Anyway, Tuesday is the day...xx


----------



## lillytheunicorn

CarerQuie said:


> Anyway, Tuesday is the day...xx


Good luck Belle for Tuesday


----------



## Natalie Strudwick

Neutering your kitten? Did you ask your vet if at this age it is safe?


----------



## bluecordelia

Reviewing my scores with Ivan and reflecting as he gets over his burns, I know that my thoughts and considerations on whether to euthanize him in the 3-4 days after the fire changed within the day. I did at one point feel I was asking a lot of him. What held me back was his zeal to fight on. He ate, drank and adapted back to a litter tray. I managed his pain meds and in some ways (in conjunction with his vet) steered the areas we treated as priorities. It is a painful and hard subject to contemplate for any owner and I totally respect everyone's individual decisions. Thankfully I have never had to approach the subject due to illness rather than trauma. 

My background in nursing would be a help as I know what can happen but when it is one of your own its a different matter. 

The scoring tool gave me a focus and helped as I didn't just rely on what I though was best. Thank you Shosh.


----------



## Fonx

Our vet said she could neuter our boy at 4-5 months as he is quite big and his uh... balls have already dropped apparently. He is a big sturdy cat. I don't know whether to wait until 5 months. I'd rather get it done soon as possible as we have two (non-related but similar in age) girls and asian breed cats mature quicker apparently. I don't want any accidents - they'd be too young any way. The girls are tiny and so we'll probably wait until they're 6 months even though they're 3 weeks older then he is. 

4 months still seems so young though.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Kittens neutered at 3 months bounce right back, and apparently male kittens usually have both testicles descended at birth, unlike human babies!

The video in the first post on this thread is well worth watching:

http://www.cats.org.uk/what-we-do/neutering/enr


----------



## OrientalSlave

I knew there was another video! This one is more graphic but reinforces that early neutering is normally rapid and very safe.


----------



## meowmax

Thank you for the link, that was helpful.


----------



## andrewjacson

I also have a 7 year old kitty and she is perfectly fine. No problem with her. I always clean her litter box twice a day and try to dust free area. I am very conscious about my cat health and food.


----------



## Forester

We're having a slight change in Dylan's regime so I thought that I'd update. He is still vomiting but the frequency is down to once every 5 ro 6 days. I've chatted with No 3 today and we've decided to increase the pred to 5mg per day. ( from 4mg ). If this isn't sufficient to prevent the vomiting we will try adding metronidazole. No 3 doesn't want to go over 5mg pred per day as she doesn't want to suppress Dylan's immune system.

Fingers crossed that the rest of the IBD regulars are all blip free and enjoying life.
love to all xx


----------



## buffie

Sorry to have been AWOL from the thread but was in a scary place.Meeko had been vomit free for 3 weeks(unheard of for him) so was reluctant to post anything,but unfortunately he vomited on Thursday past.
He hasn't been sick again but with the hot weather etc probably hasn't eaten enough to be sick with 
Dyl sounds as though he is at the stage Meeko was /is with his vomiting every 5/6 days,which my vet said was okay as it was only the once a day,not ideal but a lot better than it might be as he was only on famotidine and no other meds.
Paws crossed the new regime helps to control Dyls "returns".
Hope all other IBD'ers are doing well x


----------



## Forester

buffie, Its really good to hear that Meeko went *3 weeks vomit free * It must have been truly scary wondering how long it would last. You seem to have the Magnificent One's symptoms fairly well under control so I think that you can feel pretty pleased at where you are now. Long may it continue. With any cat there is always going to be the occaisional " return ".

Dylan has got nowhere near as far as Meeko but I'm reasonably happy that things are better than they were. We don't know how much of the improvement is down to the lamb and how much to the pred. No3 asked whether I wanted to try to change either the lamb or the pred to try to discover how much each has contributed to the improvement. I said that I would prefer to get the vomiting level lower before experimenting.

She suggested that 2 weeks of metronidazole could be worth adding for its anti inflammatory effect but I decided to hang fire for now. Dylan is now having 7 tablets per day and is starting to get a bit p***ed off with medicine times . I don't want to introduce something foul tasting unless I have to. We could reduce the number of tablets by using a higher strength of pred tablet but the 1mg tab gives us more flexibility.

Dyl seems happy and well in himself although has become very naughty at times. I know that its only for attention. OH was in hospital for a week and behaviour was exemplary( Dylan's behaviour not OH's LOL ). Now that OH is home we're back to trying to swing off the curtains.. We are still waiting for Dilly's run to be made and erected but hope that it shouldn't be too long now.

Wishing you all days filled with solid poo and no returns.
( Where else but PF would such wishes be conveyed :Hilarious ? )

xx


----------



## buffie

Its always a worry when/if to change something/stop something/drop something especially if symptoms have improved a bit.
I think in your situation I would be tempted not to rock the boat too much for a while yet .
Being naughty sounds good shows he is a happy boy


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Its always a worry when/if to change something/stop something/drop something especially if symptoms have improved a bit.
> I think in your situation I would be tempted not to rock the boat too much for a while yet .
> Being naughty sounds good shows he is a happy boy


Its good to know that you agree with me about not making any changes which might be detrimental. . I feel that we need more progress first.

I suspect the naughtiness is more likely due to boredom. 

He's on his toes today LOL. I've bought him a Mynwood jacket for walking out to his run and he's been forming contortions trying to get it off.:Hilarious


----------



## buffie

Good luck with the jacket,Meeko hated his at first,infact it was only after he had been out in his run that he decided it was okay and never looked back.
Trouble is the last time I had him out with it he howled every day for over a week because he wanted out in the garden all the time,the run wasn't good enough.


----------



## Forester

buffie, I sympathise with you over Meeko's desire to be in the garden.

I'd originally intended to harness train Dylan when we first adopted him but changed my mind. He showed no inclination at all to want to go outside , despite having been a stray before we adopted him, so I decided not to encourage any desire he might have for the great outdoors. I'm only doing it now as he will soon have the opportunity to go out and be safe, even if the run will be somewhat small.


----------



## buffie

Sorry meant to say that I hope your OH is doing okay ,having him in hospital must have been a bit of a worry for you xx
I really wish I could explain to Meeko that he could have the run of the garden if he promised not to leave it.It's a cats paradise with trees,bushes lots of places to hide and pounce on imaginary things,but sadly with a busy main road to the front it is too risky.

Just lastnight I had a young girl at the door asking if I had seen her cat ,she had not come home since the previous day.


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Sorry meant to say that I hope your OH is doing okay ,having him in hospital must have been a bit of a worry for you xx
> I really wish I could explain to Meeko that he could have the run of the garden if he promised not to leave it.It's a cats paradise with trees,bushes lots of places to hide and pounce on imaginary things,but sadly with a busy main road to the front it is too risky.
> 
> Just lastnight I had a young girl at the door asking if I had seen her cat ,she had not come home since the previous day.


How sad about the young girl who had lost her cat. I don't know about you but I always fear the worst. I do hope that she found him/ her safe and well.

I'm in a similar position to you buffie, a very busy road at the front but a safe area at the back.

As you say, if only we could explain to them what is safe and what is not. Once over the busy road we have miles and miles of parkland and woodland it would make crossing the road so tempting. Any visitors here are always told that they may do what they like with the exception of letting the cat out. That carries the death penalty for anyone who might do it. Luckily no one has ever chanced it.

Thanks for your good wishes for OH. TBH I was relieved when the hospital kept him in. Had he not been treated when he was the hospital staff have agreed that he would not be alive now.


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all 

Sylv, I'm really pleased to hear that Dyl's vomiting has been less, keeping everything crossed the new regime helps and he continues to do well. And being naughty is always a good sign 

I'm with both you and Buffie, I'd too be reluctant to make any changes, and agree that Dyl needs to make more progress first before you start to consider any changes. I'm still scared to death to try any other foods with Ro.

We need photos of Dyl in his new jacket once he stops trying to escape it 

I hope your OH is ok? Any news on when he will be home?

Buffie, I can understand why you have been AWOL and also being in a scary place, remember we are always here for each other on pm and no need to post on the thread.

That's fantastic that Mr M went 3 weeks without any returns 

How's he been doing?

Oh I do hope the young girl has found her cat.

Ro is still doing really well, though he's not coping well with the very hot spell we are having at the moment, his last bloods were all good and we were back at the vets earlier to have his second lot of vaccs.

I hope all other masters, mistresses and slaves are doing well and behaving  xx xx


----------



## buffie

Hi Sarah,good to read that Ro has been doing well,this hot spell seems to have upset a few of our furries.
Meeko hasn't been very keen to eat at all and with his reluctance to drink I cant risk any dry food 
I have reinstated the water fountain and so far he hasn't taken it to pieces,not sure if he has had a drink out of it either though 
The weird thing is he has been peeing as normal so must be getting fluid from somewhere,maybe he is a secret drinker 

Sadly I have no idea whether the missing cat has been found,I used to see her most days going from the houses across the road to the large wooded area but havnt seen her since she came to the door asking if I had seen her.


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Hi Sarah,good to read that Ro has been doing well,this hot spell seems to have upset a few of our furries.
> Meeko hasn't been very keen to eat at all and with his reluctance to drink I cant risk any dry food
> I have reinstated the water fountain and so far he hasn't taken it to pieces,not sure if he has had a drink out of it either though
> The weird thing is he has been peeing as normal so must be getting fluid from somewhere,maybe he is a secret drinker
> 
> Sadly I have no idea whether the missing cat has been found,I used to see her most days going from the houses across the road to the large wooded area but havnt seen her since she came to the door asking if I had seen her.


Hi Buffie,

Keeping everything crossed Meeko gets his appetite back soon. The heatwave doesn't help, Frank and Seb are only wanting to eat early morning and late evening and still not eating very much, it doesn't seem to have put Ro off, that boy can eat for England and a few other countries too 

Sounds like If he's peeing normally you have a secret drinker on your hands 

Oh I hope the water fountain stays in one piece 

Fingers crossed the little cat has been found.


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry been awol too, new job, training for the big race.

Riley update he has put on now 4.38 kg which is amazing, clinically he is doing really well, just waiting for bloods.

Slvy I agree with the others.

Buffie, Riley has little appetite and oh my it's hot here!

Sarah pleased Roman is still doing well x


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Sorry been awol too, new job, training for the big race.
> 
> Riley update he has put on now 4.38 kg which is amazing, clinically he is doing really well, just waiting for bloods.
> 
> Slvy I agree with the others.
> 
> Buffie, Riley has little appetite and oh my it's hot here!
> 
> Sarah pleased Roman is still doing well x


That's fantastic news, I'm so pleased and happy for you   Way to go Riley  

Keeping everything crossed for the blood results.

Hope your new job is going well and the same with your training, not nice in this heat though 

xx


----------



## Forester

Apologies for ultra quick , and late reply. This is the first time my bum has touched a seat today other than when I've been driving and I still have chores to do.

Nicola, Riley gaining weight is the best cat related news I've heard for ages. I'm so pleased for you.  The weight gain is just rewards for your total dedication to the lovely boy. I hope that you're enjoying your new job and that the change has not been too stressful. Training for your race must be horrendous in this heat but not long to go now . I will think of you on 12th.

Sarah,Its great to hear that Roman's last bloods were good. Is this the last time that you are doing them monthly? I'm sorry to hear that he is not enjoying the hot weather. Dylan is taking it easy and spending time stretched out on any tiled areas but it must be so much worse for boys with long hair. Fingers crossed that Ro will soon be feeling more comfortable.

buffie, I agree with both you and Sarah that Meeko must be getting sufficient moisture if he's peeing as normal. I'm pleased to hear that the water fountain is still working and in one piece. Perhaps Meeko is using it when he knows that no one is around. He probably won't be working up his usual appetite this weather if he's not as active as usual.

OH came home late on Tuesday . Thankfully he seems considerably better than when he went into hospital.

I'll post pics of Dylan in his jacket as soon as he gets used to it. I haven't even had the chance to try it on him at all today.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Apologies for ultra quick , and late reply. This is the first time my bum has touched a seat today other than when I've been driving and I still have chores to do.
> 
> Nicola, Riley gaining weight is the best cat related news I've heard for ages. I'm so pleased for you.  The weight gain is just rewards for your total dedication to the lovely boy. I hope that you're enjoying your new job and that the change has not been too stressful. Training for your race must be horrendous in this heat but not long to go now . I will think of you on 12th.
> 
> Sarah,Its great to hear that Roman's last bloods were good. Is this the last time that you are doing them monthly? I'm sorry to hear that he is not enjoying the hot weather. Dylan is taking it easy and spending time stretched out on any tiled areas but it must be so much worse for boys with long hair. Fingers crossed that Ro will soon be feeling more comfortable.
> 
> buffie, I agree with both you and Sarah that Meeko must be getting sufficient moisture if he's peeing as normal. I'm pleased to hear that the water fountain is still working and in one piece. Perhaps Meeko is using it when he knows that no one is around. He probably won't be working up his usual appetite this weather if he's not as active as usual.
> 
> OH came home late on Tuesday . Thankfully he seems considerably better than when he went into hospital.
> 
> I'll post pics of Dylan in his jacket as soon as he gets used to it. I haven't even had the chance to try it on him at all today.


I'm so pleased your OH is home and is feeling better 

Looking forward to seeing pics of Dyl in his jacket


----------



## nicolaa123

All bloods perfect!! Gonna open some wine yay!

Sharing all positive and happy and drink vibes around


----------



## Forester

Yippee Niclerrr, I've had a double to schlerbrate . 

Pics of Dylan in his jacket will be posted when taken. He's stopped trying to get it off, but now thinks that he can only move backwards whilst wearing it. :Hilarious.

Dyl was sick again last night.. How easy is metronidazole to administer?


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Yippee Niclerrr, I've had a double to schlerbrate .
> 
> Pics of Dylan in his jacket will be posted when taken. He's stopped trying to get it off, but now thinks that he can only move backwards whilst wearing it. :Hilarious.
> 
> Dyl was sick again last night.. How easy is metronidazole to administer?


Ah I just open up mouth and get to the back of the throat, avoiding the tongue as it tastes vile apparently..

I have found metronidazole to be very helpful for Riley, so fingers crossed


----------



## Forester

Thanks Nicola. If we have to try metronidazole I will take your advice and get it as far back as possible.. Dylan used to be easy to medicate ( so long as you didn't take ranitidine liquid anywhere near him ) but its getting more difficult with , currently, 7 tablets each day.


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> All bloods perfect!! Gonna open some wine yay!
> 
> Sharing all positive and happy and drink vibes around


Woohoo! 

Fab news!!  



Forester said:


> Yippee Niclerrr, I've had a double to schlerbrate .
> 
> Pics of Dylan in his jacket will be posted when taken. He's stopped trying to get it off, but now thinks that he can only move backwards whilst wearing it. :Hilarious.
> 
> Dyl was sick again last night.. How easy is metronidazole to administer?


Sorry to hear Dyl has been sick again  I'm hoping it's just a blip. How long has he gone this time?

I'm sure Dyl will get used to his jacket soon.



nicolaa123 said:


> Ah I just open up mouth and get to the back of the throat, avoiding the tongue as it tastes vile apparently..
> 
> I have found metronidazole to be very helpful for Riley, so fingers crossed


Metroidazole is bitter and vile :Vomit I had to take it last year, a few times it got caught at the back of my throat.

Have you got a pill popper? They are supposed to be good but I could never get the hang of it 

Keeping everything crossed the Metronidazole helps Dyl.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> Fab news!!
> 
> Sorry to hear Dyl has been sick again  I'm hoping it's just a blip. How long has he gone this time?
> 
> I'm sure Dyl will get used to his jacket soon.
> 
> Metroidazole is bitter and vile :Vomit I had to take it last year, a few times it got caught at the back of my throat.
> 
> Have you got a pill popper? They are supposed to be good but I could never get the hang of it
> 
> Keeping everything crossed the Metronidazole helps Dyl.


62 hours.   

I'm sorry that you had to take the metronidazole yourself. Why can't they find a way to disguise the flavour of these foul tasting medications ? I haven't got a pill popper but it sounds as though I'm going to need one. We haven't got metronidazole yet but No3 thought that it might be worth trying if 5mg pred daily isn't sufficient.

I felt more positive when we involved no3 but I'm starting to wonder whether we will ever get anywhere.

I wonder whether I ought to order an ice lolly mould.

love to all xx and thanks for being there for me


----------



## buffie

nicolaa123 said:


> All bloods perfect!! Gonna open some wine yay!
> 
> Sharing all positive and happy and drink vibes around


Wonderful news Nicola,so pleased to read the bloods are all good







One (maybe 3) vods+coke will be downed in celebration  x

Sorry to read that Dyl has been sick again Sylv. and if you do have to go down the metronidazole good luck hope it helps. xx

Hope Ro is still doing okay Sarah x


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> 62 hours.
> 
> I'm sorry that you had to take the metronidazole yourself. Why can't they find a way to disguise the flavour of these foul tasting medications ? I haven't got a pill popper but it sounds as though I'm going to need one. We haven't got metronidazole yet but No3 thought that it might be worth trying if 5mg pred daily isn't sufficient.
> 
> I felt more positive when we involved no3 but I'm starting to wonder whether we will ever get anywhere.
> 
> I wonder whether I ought to order an ice lolly mould.
> 
> love to all xx and thanks for being there for me


When Frank had his course I put them in Pill Pockets but know we can't do that for our IBD'ers 

Try to stay positive Sylv, I know it's hard and we've all been there, thinking is there any light at the end of the tunnel, I honestly didn't with Ro and we got there, we will all get there. And we're always here for each other.

xx



buffie said:


> Wonderful news Nicola,so pleased to read the bloods are all good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One (maybe 3) vods+coke will be downed in celebration  x
> 
> Sorry to read that Dyl has been sick again Sylv. and if you do have to go down the metronidazole good luck hope it helps. xx
> 
> Hope Ro is still doing okay Sarah x


Ro is good thanks Buffie, I hope Meeko is ok.
xx

Frankie still has dire rear, he used the tray yesterday morning, the first time in about 2 weeks. He has his scan next Friday and also his bloods. He still won't eat the renal food, Ragdollsfriend sent us some Kattovitt, he loved it at first but now won't touch it!!

I'm keeping everything crossed he's not going to be joining the club!


----------



## MoochH

Morning all - sad to say I've now got an intrest in this thread as Mooch has had blood in her stools off and on for a little while. At the moment the vet and I are keeping fingers crossed it's just a food issue .. I'm gradually removing each food source. I thought I'd got to the bottom of it by stopping all pouches with a gravy (Fish flavours, sensitive RC) but this morning it was really bad.

*
From aged 1 (now 3) her diet has been:*
Natural Instinct raw Chicken & Beef (I've read on here that some of the cats have an issue with beef?)
Royal Canin BSH Dry (obvious concerns about Dry)
3 King Prawns for lunch (I put them frozen in the feeder and they are ready for 12.00 noon while I'm at work)
x1 pouch of fishy stuff in sauce (now removed as is RC Sensitive wet pouch which was the most recent replacement)
Freezed dried chicken treats (she won't eat any other type)

Mooch wouldn't eat the raw while the weather was warm and stools were fine, had some yesterday and now blood again this morning, quite bad.
As the raw will be the easiest food to remove I'm going to try that for a couple of days as maybe it's the beef?

Are there any obvious alerts in her diet that you guys can see? By reading the thread (NOT all 235 pages!!) it seems to be different issues depending on each cat.

Thank you for any insight as I'm very upset today after having thought I'd worked it out. (need to add she's a fussy eater)


----------



## buffie

MoochH said:


> Morning all - sad to say I've now got an intrest in this thread as Mooch has had blood in her stools off and on for a little while. At the moment the vet and I are keeping fingers crossed it's just a food issue .. I'm gradually removing each food source. I thought I'd got to the bottom of it by stopping all pouches with a gravy (Fish flavours, sensitive RC) but this morning it was really bad.
> 
> *
> From aged 1 (now 3) her diet has been:*
> Natural Instinct raw Chicken & Beef (I've read on here that some of the cats have an issue with beef?)
> Royal Canin BSH Dry (obvious concerns about Dry)
> 3 King Prawns for lunch (I put them frozen in the feeder and they are ready for 12.00 noon while I'm at work)
> x1 pouch of fishy stuff in sauce (now removed as is RC Sensitive wet pouch which was the most recent replacement)
> Freezed dried chicken treats (she won't eat any other type)
> 
> Mooch wouldn't eat the raw while the weather was warm and stools were fine, had some yesterday and now blood again this morning, quite bad.
> As the raw will be the easiest food to remove I'm going to try that for a couple of days as maybe it's the beef?
> 
> Are there any obvious alerts in her diet that you guys can see? By reading the thread (NOT all 235 pages!!) it seems to be different issues depending on each cat.
> 
> Thank you for any insight as I'm very upset today after having thought I'd worked it out. (need to add she's a fussy eater)


@MoochH Hi and welcome,not that you really want to be here any more than we want you to be(if you see what I mean x )
I'm not the best one to advise re food as Meeko seems to react to most things or nothing at all as food trials have not been very successful with him.
That said Meeko's problems are vomit related ,not the other way ,no poop issues at all.
Beef can be a trigger but so can chicken which creates a big problem with many commercial foods as they are often ingredients even if you wouldn't expect them to be.
A place to start might be to make sure that there are no grains/cereals in any food,if possible try a novel protein food something that Mooch hasn't had before,such as ostrich/kangaroo etc available from Vet Concept.......http://www.vet-concept.com/?setnoco...5_1436006489-5017ae6a2ccb0ccb95c2f13a0f03328d

sorry cant seem to get it to translate page. the others have ordered from here so they will be of more help than I am.
I gave up trying to manage Meekos diet and now just go with what seems to cause the least problems and meets his fussy needs.
Hopefully the other IBD'ers will be along soon with a more indepth answer to your questions re food.


----------



## MoochH

Thank you Buffie ... these monsters of ours!


----------



## nicolaa123

Hello is it dark blood or red blood? What tests has your vet done? Blood tests? Poo tests?

With regards to food, you need to note everything your cat has ever eaten and then find something that isn't in that list! Not easy when you list all the added ingredients too.




It's too hot again, running is soooo hard....Riley is off his food, but can't really blame him in this heat, I might try making kangaroo ice lollies


----------



## sarahecp

Hi @MoochH I'm sorry to hear the the lovely Mooch has been having some problems and having blood in her poo  And I'm sorry to hear you're upset today  sending hugs to you and Mooch.

I echo all that Buffie and Nicola has said. Eliminating certain foods is a good start. Also a good idea to keep a diary, food and what her poo's are like, any blood, etc.

Roman suffers with dire rear, he has never had blood in his poo. He has always eaten rubbish wet food and was always fish flavours, not sure how much fish was actually in it, probably not much.

The prescription foods did nothing to help him. I started him on single novel protein diet of kangaroo from Vet Concept, he's been eating only that since September last year and has been doing really well on it.

If you want to try Mooch with some skippy I'd be happy to send you some.

@nicolaa123 skippy ice lollies sound delish


----------



## Forester

Evening All .

MoochH I'm sorry that Mooch has given you cause to join the IBD club but at the same time I'd like to say "Hi, and welcome".

What has your vet suggested re food for Mooch?. Most of the vets tend to suggest either one of the prescription hypoallergenic diets e g Hills or Royal Canin ,or a novel protein. I think that the most common proteins to cause problems are beef, fish and chicken in that order. Whatever you choose to feed needs to be fed exclusively for at least 6 to 8 weeks before anything new is introduced.

The prescription foods tend to be much cheaper online from Viovet, petdrugs online, Animed etc than from the vets. Sadly , it isn't always possible to identify exactly which proteins / ingredients will trigger an adverse reaction. My boy Dylan, a vomiter, has reacted to every novel protein tried as well as to all of the hypoallergenic diets which he was willing to eat . I would advise you not to buy too large a quantity of anything till you are sure that Mooch will not have a problem with it. Dylan is usually o k for the first can or two , but then reacts badly.

I hope that you manage to identify whatever has been causing Mooch's issues and that she will soon be feeling better.

Dylan and I send love and positive vibes to all of the IBD gang, new and old.


----------



## MoochH

(3rd attempt at responding ... taking out the multi quotes)

Thanks nicolaa123 - it's bloody red mucas. 
No tests by vet yet - because I harness walk I see 90% of her poops so vet was happy that I've caught any problem early. She thought inflamation of the bowel or intestine, can't remember which she said now. I asked her what long term problems would be and was told, first sign would be weight loss (in cats who owners don't see the poop), food would be looked at, then tests would be done and in some cases it can lead to cancer. Mooch had her annual two weeks ago and weight is good, she is playful, bouncy, nosey and seems totally fine. When I introduced new brands of food in the past it took a couple of months for the blood to reappear - this was usually with the fishy pouches which is why they were the first to be excluded. When I saw the vet this time I thought I'd got it sorted as Mooch was fine for 4 months (which is when I last saw vet) so she's not aware as the issues have only reappeared again today. I'll give her a call on Monday to update.

sarahecp
Oh my ... kangaroo!! She won't eat rabbit, venison or lamb stuffs but will consider some of the more unusual meats a try as suggested! Many many thanks for the offer I don't mind sorcing as my neighbour's cat eats everything Mooch doesn't. Now question is should I wait before I introduce anything new until I've completed the eliminations of what is she is currently on?


----------



## MoochH

Evening Forester, hope all good in your household right now.

 Vet has said to try excluding to begin with as Mooch has so many different food types in her diet. 
We are still hoping it's just a food intolerance so fingers crossed! Pray it's not her chicken treaties !! Excluding the Natural Instinct Chicken & Beef should give me a good start.

Oh yes, Vet also said each fish is considered a different food type. So if can't eat Tuna could have prawns still for example.*http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/forester.1350046/*


----------



## nicolaa123

I would start by asking for a full three day pooled poo test that tests everything including tf, even if you worm your cat is is the first point of testing.

I would then have full bloods tested for general health, white and red blood count etc etc.

Have they ruled out prolapse or an anal poly. Red blood is not normally associated with ingestine but possibly a tear in the bum or an irritant which could be like when we have a hot curry!

Also I'm sure I've read that a raw diet can produce red blood in the poo, be worth asking some one like satori on the forum. Raw food isn't food here for my oh so weird one!

But I would certainly ask for the above tests now to start ruling other could be's out... Hth


----------



## nicolaa123

Oh and weight loss is not always prevalent in cases..IBD is a real hoot it doesn't follow any vets prognosis!


----------



## Forester

All is good here, thanks Mooch, ( and everyone else )

Fingers crossed that Mooch doesn't have a problem with her chicken treaties.. I'm intrigued that your vet has suggested eliminating one food at a time from Mooch's diet. The only approach that I've come across before is to feed one food only for 6 to 8 weeks. Assuming that the cat is o k with the chosen food then new foods are added no more frequently than one every two weeks.

As Nicola has so rightly said, IBD cats don't seem to obey rules of logic or science. What will work for one won't work for another.


----------



## sarahecp

Before Ro was diagnosed and for the 9 months he had dire rear, going 6 times a day he had no weight loss, despite the amount of food he was eating, up to 8 pouches a day didn't gain any either. And he was his usual loony self.

Though, there were times when he sat hunched over and looked uncomfortable like he was in pain and wanted to spend time on his own.

@MoochH I hope the vet can find a quick diagnosis to Mooch's problems and whatever they and you do can help her

Keep us updated

xx


----------



## MoochH

Thank you all - will phone the vet tomorrow and get some clarity and book her back in.


----------



## Forester

How is Mooch since the beef has been withdrawn @MoochH ? I do hope that it has helped. Did you manage to speak with your vet yesterday?

I've spoken with No3 today. Dylan has been sick twice in the week since we increased his pred. to 5mg. She wants me to go back to 4mg pred. and to give 2 weeks metronidazole.

I'm panicking a bit. I was researching how to get Dylan to take the Met. and came across numerous accounts of cats dying after being given it.   . No 3 told me that its off label for cats and that I will be asked to give written permission for Dylan to have it. After having a cat who died after having a convenia injection I AM concerned ( sorry couldn't get bold to work ) . I know that its used often for cats but it still doesn't stop me panicking. The metronidazole is apparently the last of the suggestions supplied by Langfords. No3 says that if it ( metronidazole ) doesn't help then she will approach Langfords to ask what they suggest.

Hoping that this finds all IBDers, and slaves well and enjoying life. xx


----------



## buffie

@Forester Sorry to read that Dyl has been sick again after the change in his meds .
I know it was a while back but I don't remember having to give written permission to my vet when he prescribed a course of Metronidazole ,as far as I can see it is widely prescribed for various conditions and in most cases has a great success rate,Meeko couldn't take it as it made him extremely itchy so he didn't get past about day 3 or 4 I think it was.
I can understand you being wary when you read negative reports but I think you have to remember rarely ,if ever do people report on all the success stories ,its usually just the down side of things that are reported on.


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv, I'm sorry to hear Dyl has been sick again  

I'm trying to remember back to when Dyl was on the Pred before, was there a dosage then that he was more stable on? 

I wasn't asked to give written permission for the Metronidazole for Ro or Frank, maybe it has something to do with the dosage, but I'm only guessing. It did nothing to help Ro but that was one of many AB's that were prescribed before he was diagnosed with IBD, that had no effect. But have read good things they have helped lots of cats with IBD, Riley seems to do well on them. 

I can understand you being concerned, but agree with Buffie that most negative things are usually reported, please try not to worry, though we all know it's hard not to. 

I'm really hoping the Metronidazole helps Dyl and keeping everything crossed he starts to improve really soon. 

Xx


I hope all others masters, mistresses and slave are well xx


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> @Forester Sorry to read that Dyl has been sick again after the change in his meds .
> I know it was a while back but I don't remember having to give written permission to my vet when he prescribed a course of Metronidazole ,as far as I can see it is widely prescribed for various conditions and in most cases has a great success rate,Meeko couldn't take it as it made him extremely itchy so he didn't get past about day 3 or 4 I think it was.
> I can understand you being wary when you read negative reports but I think you have to remember rarely ,if ever do people report on all the success stories ,its usually just the down side of things that are reported on.


@buffie, I'm wondering whether its related to a " misunderstanding" I had at my vets after Eric had the Convenia injection. I went to the vets seeking something which might entice Eric to eat . The receptionist thought that I was complaining about him having been given the injection whereas I was just desperate to find a way to help him. I wasn't complaining, I was frantic .( Eric had to be PTS 3 days later )

I know that we need to try the metronidazole as we're all out of options . We have to find a way to get this vomiting under control.

I have seen metronidazole mentioned many, many times during the course of my research towards helping Dylan and I'd never , until a couple of days ago ,seen any adverse reports. I was putting the scare stories to the back of my mind but No3 saying that I'd have to sign a disclaimer before Dyl could have the metro. has got me worried. She told me that she had no concerns about giving it to Dylan but then the vet who gave Eric the convenia had no concerns either.

I think that I'm probably just a bit down. We seem to have made very little , if any, progress in 18 months and there just doesn't seem anything else to try. I think that the last two vomits having been one on my bed quilt ( soaked in ,as I didn't find it till later ) and one on the sofa throw hasn't helped.

Maybe the metronidazole will help.

xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Hi Sylv, I'm sorry to hear Dyl has been sick again
> 
> I'm trying to remember back to when Dyl was on the Pred before, was there a dosage then that he was more stable on?
> 
> I wasn't asked to give written permission for the Metronidazole for Ro or Frank, maybe it has something to do with the dosage, but I'm only guessing. It did nothing to help Ro but that was one of many AB's that were prescribed before he was diagnosed with IBD, that had no effect. But have read good things they have helped lots of cats with IBD, Riley seems to do well on them.
> 
> I can understand you being concerned, but agree with Buffie that most negative things are usually reported, please try not to worry, though we all know it's hard not to.
> 
> I'm really hoping the Metronidazole helps Dyl and keeping everything crossed he starts to improve really soon.
> 
> Xx


Thanks Sarah

I think that the last few weeks of stress with OH has caught up on me.

love to you and the boys, sending positive vibes for Frankie.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks Sarah
> 
> I think that the last few weeks of stress with OH has caught up on me.
> 
> love to you and the boys, sending positive vibes for Frankie.


You've not had a good time of late with Dyl and your OH and it's understandable that you are and have been feeling stressed, sending huge hugs, I really do hope you all have a break really soon, you deserve it.

Thank you, love to you and Dyl too xx


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> @buffie, I'm wondering whether its related to a " misunderstanding" I had at my vets after Eric had the Convenia injection. I went to the vets seeking something which might entice Eric to eat . The receptionist thought that I was complaining about him having been given the injection whereas I was just desperate to find a way to help him. I wasn't complaining, I was frantic .( Eric had to be PTS 3 days later )
> 
> I know that we need to try the metronidazole as we're all out of options . We have to find a way to get this vomiting under control.
> 
> I have seen metronidazole mentioned many, many times during the course of my research towards helping Dylan and I'd never , until a couple of days ago ,seen any adverse reports. I was putting the scare stories to the back of my mind but No3 saying that I'd have to sign a disclaimer before Dyl could have the metro. has got me worried. She told me that she had no concerns about giving it to Dylan but then the vet who gave Eric the convenia had no concerns either.
> 
> I think that I'm probably just a bit down. We seem to have made very little , if any, progress in 18 months and there just doesn't seem anything else to try. I think that the last two vomits having been one on my bed quilt ( soaked in ,as I didn't find it till later ) and one on the sofa throw hasn't helped.
> 
> Maybe the metronidazole will help.
> 
> xx


The roller coaster that is IBD  it really is the devils spawn 
I know the feeling of getting nowhere no matter what you try as we have been doing that virtually from day one.
Here we are 3 years down the track ,all meds discarded apart from Famotidine and ,touch wood the vomiting has subsided,well if you can call once in 5 weeks subsided .
I know this may/will most likely not last but while it does I am grateful.

Not surprised that you are feeling a bit deflated right now as life has not been easy for you the past few weeks,paws and all things crossed that the metronidazole makes a difference to Dyl xx


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> You've not had a good time of late with Dyl and your OH and it's understandable that you are and have been feeling stressed, sending huge hugs, I really do hope you all have a break really soon, you deserve it.
> 
> Thank you, love to you and Dyl too xx


Thanks Sarah 

Could you tell Dylan that I need a break ? He's just ( literally ) been sick under the sideboard. 

xx


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> The roller coaster that is IBD  it really is the devils spawn
> I know the feeling of getting nowhere no matter what you try as we have been doing that virtually from day one.
> Here we are 3 years down the track ,all meds discarded apart from Famotidine and ,touch wood the vomiting has subsided,well if you can call once in 5 weeks subsided .
> I know this may/will most likely not last but while it does I am grateful.
> 
> Not surprised that you are feeling a bit deflated right now as life has not been easy for you the past few weeks,paws and all things crossed that the metronidazole makes a difference to Dyl xx


Thanks buffie 

I'd have gone potty before now without the support of you, @sarahecp, @nicolaa123, @bluecordelia , and @Shoshannah.

I smiled yesterday evening whilst reading an old post of Nicola's. She stated that looking after a cat with IBD requires, amongst other things, *a lot of tissues*. Both amusing , and correct. Please pass the Kleenex. 

I have my fingers, and everything else crossed that Meeko continues to do well.

love to all xx


----------



## buffie

@Forester ..............there you go ..


----------



## Forester

@buffie You can always be relied upon to come up with the goods.From straightjackets to ice lolly moulds to tissues.

Thanks for being you.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Just a note on NSAIDs and feline asthma - I couldn't find very much on this at all, either anecdotally or in the literature. There are no published papers on the use of NSAIDs in asthmatic cats, either for or against.

However, there is plenty of literature that shows the use of COX-2 selective NSAIDs is well tolerated by human asthmatics. Non-selective NSAIDs (such as aspirin) are thought to exert their negative effects on the airways through their effects on COX-1. The COX-2 selective NSAIDs leave COX-1 well alone and therefore spare the airways. That's the thinking behind it, anyway.

Metacam is a COX-2 selective inhibitor so, in theory, shouldn't exacerbate asthma in cats. I also trawled through the archives of the veterinary forums and couldn't find any reports of problems from the trenches.

Hope this helps!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14519044


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks buffie
> 
> I'd have gone potty before now without the support of you, @sarahecp, @nicolaa123, @bluecordelia , and @Shoshannah.
> 
> I smiled yesterday evening whilst reading an old post of Nicola's. She stated that looking after a cat with IBD requires, amongst other things, *a lot of tissues*. Both amusing , and correct. Please pass the Kleenex.
> 
> I have my fingers, and everything else crossed that Meeko continues to do well.
> 
> love to all xx


That's what we're here for Sylv, support and friendship and to try to keep each other sane.

xx



buffie said:


> @Forester ..............there you go ..


 xx



Forester said:


> @buffie You can always be relied upon to come up with the goods.From straightjackets to ice lolly moulds to tissues.
> 
> Thanks for being you.


I agree and also for making us feel better, bringing a smile to our faces and also making us laugh when we need it.

xx


----------



## OrientalSlave

Speaking as a human asthmatic I find things like ibuprofen don't affect my asthma though they do upset my tummy these days.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

OrientalSlave said:


> Speaking as a human asthmatic I find things like ibuprofen don't affect my asthma though they do upset my tummy these days.


Join the club. I was fine until I started working, then my stomach lining was regularly attacked by stress and ibuprofen finished it off in 2011. Was off work for 2 weeks and never touched it since. :Hurting


----------



## nicolaa123

Hello..ask your vet if it's flagyl (another name for metrondiazole) if so it's widely used with treating cats and yep Riley has when needed a very high does to combat inflammation and any bacteria that is causing an issue. In fact it's due to the dual action of the anti inflamatory which is why is a first choice for ibd and I'm also sure it is used to treat TF (?)

Why you would need a disclaimer I am very unsure.

I rather than going down the pred route (didn't work for Riley either) is go try the immunosuppressive drugs like cholrambucil or there is another the name escapes me right now, the immunosureppresive drugs are better tolerated long term, yes regular blood checks are needed but if you think about long term pred usage, that has a whole host of worries...

That's where I would ask my vet to be looking into and starting a course sooner rather than later..



Riley still has mini episodes but I don't worry anymore unless it lasts more than 7 days, it doesn't normally go beyond two three days then a big gap..learn to live with the poo we are!,


----------



## sarahecp

Evening all 

@nicolaa123 hope Riley is ok and your toe is healing.

I do think that it was the Chlorambucil that helped Ro more than the Pred, though probably a combination of all the meds and skippy.

@Forester how are you and Dyl today? Any news on starting the Metronidazole?

@buffie I hope Meeko and you are well?

@MoochH how's Mooch doing and any news from your vet?

I hope everyone else is doing ok.

xx xx

Things are still good here with Ro, his poo is good, he can have the odd day here and there where it can be softer but I won't worry unless we go to how things used to be, as long as he eats the skippy and nothing else, still not brave enough to try him with the rabbit yet, but I will do one day.

Frankie still has dire rear  he has his scan on Friday and also running bloods again for his kidneys, I'm really dreading taking him, he gets so upset and still hasn't got over the last lot of visits  I'm keeping everything crossed that we're not going to be back and forth and hopefully it's something we can control with diet.


----------



## buffie

sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> @nicolaa123 hope Riley is ok and your toe is healing.
> 
> I do think that it was the Chlorambucil that helped Ro more than the Pred, though probably a combination of all the meds and skippy.
> 
> @Forester how are you and Dyl today? Any news on starting the Metronidazole?
> 
> @buffie I hope Meeko and you are well?
> 
> @MoochH how's Mooch doing and any news from your vet?
> 
> I hope everyone else is doing ok.
> 
> xx xx
> 
> Things are still good here with Ro, his poo is good, he can have the odd day here and there where it can be softer but I won't worry unless we go to how things used to be, as long as he eats the skippy and nothing else, still not brave enough to try him with the rabbit yet, but I will do one day.
> 
> Frankie still has dire rear  he has his scan on Friday and also running bloods again for his kidneys, I'm really dreading taking him, he gets so upset and still hasn't got over the last lot of visits  I'm keeping everything crossed that we're not going to be back and forth and hopefully it's something we can control with diet.


Hi Sarah good to read that Ro is still doing well,it is a bit of a leap of faith when you try to introduce something new into the diet,paws crossed it is as successful as the skippy.I'm sure Ro will be happy to have a little diet change 

Poor Frankie everything crossed for him on Friday,it really would be sods law if he has IBD probs as well especially now that you seem to have Ro under control.
All well here Meeko has only been sick the once in the past 5 weeks,dont know why as nothing has changed but what ever the reason I'm happy

Hope everyone else both hooman and furry are well x


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> That's what we're here for Sylv, support and friendship and to try to keep each other sane.
> 
> xx
> 
> xx
> 
> I agree and also for making us feel better, bringing a smile to our faces and also making us laugh when we need it.
> 
> xx


You have all gone far " above and beyond" with your support for me and I really do appreciate it. I dread to think where Dylan and I would be without you all.



nicolaa123 said:


> Hello..ask your vet if it's flagyl (another name for metrondiazole) if so it's widely used with treating cats and yep Riley has when needed a very high does to combat inflammation and any bacteria that is causing an issue. In fact it's due to the dual action of the anti inflamatory which is why is a first choice for ibd and I'm also sure it is used to treat TF (?)
> 
> Why you would need a disclaimer I am very unsure.
> 
> I rather than going down the pred route (didn't work for Riley either) is go try the immunosuppressive drugs like cholrambucil or there is another the name escapes me right now, the immunosureppresive drugs are better tolerated long term, yes regular blood checks are needed but if you think about long term pred usage, that has a whole host of worries...
> 
> That's where I would ask my vet to be looking into and starting a course sooner rather than later..
> 
> Riley still has mini episodes but I don't worry anymore unless it lasts more than 7 days, it doesn't normally go beyond two three days then a big gap..learn to live with the poo we are!,


Thanks for reassuring me that its metronidazole that you give the handsome Riley when he has a flare up. Its good to hear that Riley's " episodes" are usually limited to 2 or 3 days. You've made amazing progress in controlling his symptoms. If I do half as well as you I will be happy.

Despite No3 telling me that I'd be asked to give written permission for Dylan to have the metro. I wasn't asked to sign anything. The first dose has been administered( at the second attempt ) and it doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects yet . He's sulking but is probably still in shock. The piece of tablet was squirted from a pill popper and followed with a spray of water. I wish that I could have photographed the look on his face .

Thanks , for your , suggestions, @nicolaa123. They are always welcome and appreciated. No3 has told me that she is consciously trying not to suppress Dylan's immune system. Esther Barrett , the specialist who conducted Dylan's ultrasound is of the opinion that the inflammation low down in Dylan's intestines is due to him trying to fight some sort of infection. The a/bs prescribed after the u/s were to try to fight an infection and the poo tests were to try to identify whatever it is he is trying to fight.

If the metro. doesn't help it will be interesting to see what Langfords can suggest as we've covered everything that they suggested previously.

love to all, as always xx

ETA cross posted with both sarahecp and buffie above. I type far too slowly.
Well done Meeko, only one return in 5 weeks is fabulous, please keep it up.
Well done Ro, sending positive vibes and calming strokes for Frankie for Friday


----------



## MoochH

Forester said:


> How is Mooch since the beef has been withdrawn @MoochH ? I do hope that it has helped. Did you manage to speak with your vet yesterday?





sarahecp said:


> Evening all
> 
> @MoochH how's Mooch doing and any news from your vet?


Hello Hello Forester, sarahecp, Buffie and EVERYONE including all the yummy furries ... 
Spoke to the vet over the phone, she wants me to give it at least another week without the beef before I go back. So far so good, but I've had this before with the fishy pouches. The thinking is that it's still a food intolerance and if we think that it will turn out that way 
Mooch is being a moody madam as her foods are a little samey at the mo. I made her 'go fishing' for her prawns tonight (bottom of a narrow long pot) and she eats them off her paw. Time will tell


----------



## Forester

Oooh MoochH that's sounding positive .

Beef is meant to be the most common protein to cause a problem so fingers crossed that you've already found a solution for the gorgeous little Mooch

Thanks for updating us .


----------



## MoochH

I must look even more mad than usual in the mornings ... not only am I out there harness walking, being dragged around while she chases squirrles at 5am, I'm now crouched down peering at Moo's bum while she goes to the loo. Good job they don't see me checking the ones in the litter tray too


----------



## MoochH

Forester said:


> Oooh MoochH that's sounding positive .
> 
> Beef is meant to be the most common protein to cause a problem so fingers crossed that you've already found a solution for the gorgeous little Mooch
> 
> Thanks for updating us .


I'm feeling positive after reading some posts on this thread about beef.
I hope her coat stays as soft and sleek without the raw feeding, everyone comments on it. Hey ho though, her health is more important.


----------



## Forester

MoochH said:


> I'm feeling positive after reading some posts on this thread about beef.
> I hope her coat stays as soft and sleek without the raw feeding, everyone comments on it. Hey ho though, her health is more important.


I'm sure that Mooch will retain a soft shiny coat. Withdrawing beef doesn't mean that Mooch can't have an alternative raw food so long as it doesn't give her blood in her poo. 

TBH I felt really sad when my vet put Dylan onto Royal Canin Sensitivity Control pouches when I'd previously fed only grain free premium wets. Now I'm at a stage where I'd feed _anything _ so long as it stopped his vomiting. Sadly nothing has stopped the vomiting.

IMO its important to get a problem under control asap. The longer it goes on the harder it becomes to control.

Mooch will feel much better, which will reflect in her coat, once her poo problem is rectified.


----------



## buffie

MoochH said:


> I must look even more mad than usual in the mornings ... not only am I out there harness walking, being dragged around while she chases squirrles at 5am,* I'm now crouched down peering at Moo's bum while she goes to the loo. Good job they don't see me checking the ones in the litter tray too *


Welcome to our world  there is nothing weird about poo/vomit studying..................is there


----------



## sarahecp

buffie said:


> Hi Sarah good to read that Ro is still doing well,it is a bit of a leap of faith when you try to introduce something new into the diet,paws crossed it is as successful as the skippy.I'm sure Ro will be happy to have a little diet change
> 
> Poor Frankie everything crossed for him on Friday,it really would be sods law if he has IBD probs as well especially now that you seem to have Ro under control.
> All well here Meeko has only been sick the once in the past 5 weeks,dont know why as nothing has changed but what ever the reason I'm happy
> 
> Hope everyone else both hooman and furry are well x


Thanks @buffie  xx

That's great news about Mr M  I'm really pleased and happy 



Forester said:


> You have all gone far " above and beyond" with your support for me and I really do appreciate it. I dread to think where Dylan and I would be without you all.
> 
> Thanks for reassuring me that its metronidazole that you give the handsome Riley when he has a flare up. Its good to hear that Riley's " episodes" are usually limited to 2 or 3 days. You've made amazing progress in controlling his symptoms. If I do half as well as you I will be happy.
> 
> Despite No3 telling me that I'd be asked to give written permission for Dylan to have the metro. I wasn't asked to sign anything. The first dose has been administered( at the second attempt ) and it doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects yet . He's sulking but is probably still in shock. The piece of tablet was squirted from a pill popper and followed with a spray of water. I wish that I could have photographed the look on his face .
> 
> Thanks , for your , suggestions, @nicolaa123. They are always welcome and appreciated. No3 has told me that she is consciously trying not to suppress Dylan's immune system. Esther Barrett , the specialist who conducted Dylan's ultrasound is of the opinion that the inflammation low down in Dylan's intestines is due to him trying to fight some sort of infection. The a/bs prescribed after the u/s were to try to fight an infection and the poo tests were to try to identify whatever it is he is trying to fight.
> 
> If the metro. doesn't help it will be interesting to see what Langfords can suggest as we've covered everything that they suggested previously.
> 
> love to all, as always xx
> 
> ETA cross posted with both sarahecp and buffie above. I type far too slowly.
> Well done Meeko, only one return in 5 weeks is fabulous, please keep it up.
> Well done Ro, sending positive vibes and calming strokes for Frankie for Friday


Thanks @Forester  xx

I'm keeping everything crossed that's possible to cross that the Metronidazole helps Dyl. Keep us updated.



MoochH said:


> Hello Hello Forester, sarahecp, Buffie and EVERYONE including all the yummy furries ...
> Spoke to the vet over the phone, she wants me to give it at least another week without the beef before I go back. So far so good, but I've had this before with the fishy pouches. The thinking is that it's still a food intolerance and if we think that it will turn out that way
> Mooch is being a moody madam as her foods are a little samey at the mo. I made her 'go fishing' for her prawns tonight (bottom of a narrow long pot) and she eats them off her paw. Time will tell


I'm glad you're feeling more positive @MoochH Good luck with continuing to cut out the beef and keeping everything crossed it helps Mooch. Keep us updated.



MoochH said:


> I must look even more mad than usual in the mornings ... not only am I out there harness walking, being dragged around while she chases squirrles at 5am, I'm now crouched down peering at Moo's bum while she goes to the loo. Good job they don't see me checking the ones in the litter tray too


It's quite normal looking and inspecting poo and bums  and also taking photos and keeping them stored on your phone of them too 

Hope everyone is doing ok today xx xx


----------



## nicolaa123

I have a poo folder


----------



## nicolaa123

Sarah..good luck and all crossed for tomorrow xx


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I have a poo folder


So far I've got 3 diaries 



nicolaa123 said:


> Sarah..good luck and all crossed for tomorrow xx


Thanks @nicolaa123  xx


----------



## Forester

*Please don't read this if you're eating.*

Its also quite normal to inspect piles of vomit and to attempt to determine the ingredients.:Hilarious I have a record of every vomit Dylan has produced since 9/1/14. Sick or what? Please excuse the pun.

Vet No2 loved my records so much that she took a copy home to study and then lost them.

Fingers crossed that Mooch continues to do well without her beef.

Thanks for your good wishes for Dylan, everyone. 3 doses of metronidazole have been ingested,( I think! ) Only 25 to go.

Keep up the good work Meeko, Riley , Roman and Mooch as well as Blue, Stan and IBDers everywhere.

Good luck for Sunday @nicolaa123. I hope that the sun shines for you . . .but with a refreshing breeze.

Wishing the best of luck and calming vibes for Frankie for tomorrow. Please keep us updated @sarahecp.

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Oh Sunday is looming and I'm pretty sure now my toes is broken so I will at this rate be hobbling around, I am so disappointed and upset with myself


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Oh Sunday is looming and I'm pretty sure now my toes is broken so I will at this rate be hobbling around, I am so disappointed and upset with myself


Oh NO!!!!!!. What has happened @nicolaa123?

I saw a mention of your toe in an earlier post but can't remember it being mentioned otherwise. I'm sure that no one will mind you not running for your sponsor money if you have a sick note . What a shame , you've done all of the hard work to get this far. I hope that it is not giving you too much pain or discomfort.


----------



## MoochH

:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh


Taking out the prawns.
Gave her RC Chicken and Rice wet and RC Dry today. There is a bit of fish oil in the dry otherwise its 38% chicken plus all the grains etc.
Vet on the 20th July - waiting while I work out if the prawns are the cause. I don't want to walk out of there having to exclude something else. I'll want the tests to start.

How do you guys deal with this?? It's like you think you've found an answer and then boom it smacks you in the face.


----------



## nicolaa123

MoochH said:


> :Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh
> 
> Taking out the prawns.
> Gave her RC Chicken and Rice wet and RC Dry today. There is a bit of fish oil in the dry otherwise its 38% chicken plus all the grains etc.
> Vet on the 20th July - waiting while I work out if the prawns are the cause. I don't want to walk out of there having to exclude something else. I'll want the tests to start.
> 
> How do you guys deal with this?? It's like you think you've found an answer and then boom it smacks you in the face.


Uhm not sure dealing with it is the right terminology more like if you get a good day cherish it, good week celebrate it, bad days accept and try again..


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Oh NO!!!!!!. What has happened @nicolaa123?
> 
> I saw a mention of your toe in an earlier post but can't remember it being mentioned otherwise. I'm sure that no one will mind you not running for your sponsor money if you have a sick note . What a shame , you've done all of the hard work to get this far. I hope that it is not giving you too much pain or discomfort.


I will still do race for life even if I have to hop around it! I kicked my coffee table trying to save a moth and it split my toes......one toe is really not looking good and I'm hobbling about like a well hobbling thing....


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Uhm not sure dealing with it is the right terminology more like if you get a good day cherish it, good week celebrate it, bad days accept and try again..


Brilliantly put @nicolaa123 

Please don't be too dejected yet MoochH. I'm confident that you will find lots of things that Mooch can eat without causing her problems.



nicolaa123 said:


> I will still do race for life even if I have to hop around it! I kicked my coffee table trying to save a moth and it split my toes......one toe is really not looking good and I'm hobbling about like a well hobbling thing....


You poor thing .That moth certainly has a lot to answer for. Were you rescuing it from Riley ?

Could you get a pain killing injection from your GP.? I used to have pain killing injections from the hospital after my riding accident. They would only numb a small area but would last for about 36 to 48 hours. Larger than normal trainers might help as they ought to accommodate any swelling.

Wishing you a pain free day on Sunday.

xx


----------



## buffie

Firstly @sarahecp good luck for tomorrow hope Frankie isn't too upset by the experience.
@MoochH isn't this fun  believe me you do(on the whole) learn to live with all the ups and downs that go with IBD,at least when you have had enough we can all come on this thread and have a whinge 
@Forester good to read that metronidazole hasn't caused Dyl any ill effects,paws crossed it makes a difference,
@nicolaa123 hope your toe doesn't cause you too much pain on Sunday.Were you by any chance going about the house in bare feet,my daughter did that and caught her little toe on the door pillar and snapped it in half.4 toes were pointing straight and the little one was at a 90 degree angle to them .Funnily enough she no longer wanders around without some form of footwear now
Hope Riley is still doing okay
Meeko is still plodding on now 5 weeks and counting and just the one "return" 2 weeks ago


----------



## nicolaa123

buffie said:


> Firstly @sarahecp good luck for tomorrow hope Frankie isn't too upset by the experience.
> @MoochH isn't this fun  believe me you do(on the whole) learn to live with all the ups and downs that go with IBD,at least when you have had enough we can all come on this thread and have a whinge
> @Forester good to read that metronidazole hasn't caused Dyl any ill effects,paws crossed it makes a difference,
> @nicolaa123 hope your toe doesn't cause you too much pain on Sunday.Were you by any chance going about the house in bare feet,my daughter did that and caught her little toe on the door pillar and snapped it in half.4 toes were pointing straight and the little one was at a 90 degree angle to them .Funnily enough she no longer wanders around without some form of footwear now
> Hope Riley is still doing okay
> Meeko is still plodding on now 5 weeks and counting and just the one "return" 2 weeks ago


I was bare foot as I was getting ready for bed, but wanted to get the moth back into the night where it should be......

The only thing now is with out footwear is the only way I'm pain free....



Forester said:


> Brilliantly put @nicolaa123
> 
> Please don't be too dejected yet MoochH. I'm confident that you will find lots of things that Mooch can eat without causing her problems.
> 
> You poor thing .That moth certainly has a lot to answer for. Were you rescuing it from Riley ?
> 
> Could you get a pain killing injection from your GP.? I used to have pain killing injections from the hospital after my riding accident. They would only numb a small area but would last for about 36 to 48 hours. Larger than normal trainers might help as they ought to accommodate any swelling.
> 
> Wishing you a pain free day on Sunday.
> 
> xx


It hurts to walk..there is nothing that can be done for a toe, I tried to buddy wrap it but that hurt even more!

Thing with pain killing is you don't know when you are causing more harm..I've still got two days, I hope it improves. I've not been able to run this week and I can really tell the difference, my mood isn't as brighter, feel a bit stiff etc.....


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I was bare foot as I was getting ready for bed, but wanted to get the moth back into the night where it should be......
> 
> The only thing now is with out footwear is the only way I'm pain free....
> 
> It hurts to walk..there is nothing that can be done for a toe, I tried to buddy wrap it but that hurt even more!
> 
> Thing with pain killing is you don't know when you are causing more harm..I've still got two days, I hope it improves. I've not been able to run this week and I can really tell the difference, my mood isn't as brighter, feel a bit stiff etc.....


I'm desperately hoping that those 2 days will produce a considerable improvement for you. Life's not fair. You are doing your utmost to do good and it kicks you in the teeth, sorry toe. Jesus sandals might be more comfortable but they wouldn't give your feet much support.


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> *Please don't read this if you're eating.*
> 
> Its also quite normal to inspect piles of vomit and to attempt to determine the ingredients.:Hilarious I have a record of every vomit Dylan has produced since 9/1/14. Sick or what? Please excuse the pun.
> 
> Vet No2 loved my records so much that she took a copy home to study and then lost them.
> 
> Fingers crossed that Mooch continues to do well without her beef.
> 
> Thanks for your good wishes for Dylan, everyone. 3 doses of metronidazole have been ingested,( I think! ) Only 25 to go.
> 
> Keep up the good work Meeko, Riley , Roman and Mooch as well as Blue, Stan and IBDers everywhere.
> 
> Good luck for Sunday @nicolaa123. I hope that the sun shines for you . . .but with a refreshing breeze.
> 
> Wishing the best of luck and calming vibes for Frankie for tomorrow. Please keep us updated @sarahecp.
> 
> xx


Nothing seems to put me off from eating anymore!! 

Fingers crossed for the next 25 

Thanks again Sylv, I will let you all know how he gets on tomorrow.

xx



nicolaa123 said:


> Oh Sunday is looming and I'm pretty sure now my toes is broken so I will at this rate be hobbling around, I am so disappointed and upset with myself


Sending lots of positive and healing vibes for your toe and really hope it's on the mend for Sunday.

xx



MoochH said:


> :Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh
> 
> Taking out the prawns.
> Gave her RC Chicken and Rice wet and RC Dry today. There is a bit of fish oil in the dry otherwise its 38% chicken plus all the grains etc.
> Vet on the 20th July - waiting while I work out if the prawns are the cause. I don't want to walk out of there having to exclude something else. I'll want the tests to start.
> 
> How do you guys deal with this?? It's like you think you've found an answer and then boom it smacks you in the face.


You will learn to deal with it, keep confident and positive. I remember feeling the same as you, I honestly didn't think Roman would be where he is today, I remember Nicola saying that IBD is a long road, we will have blips along the way and we will get there, we all will.

Hope all goes well on the 20th

xx



nicolaa123 said:


> I will still do race for life even if I have to hop around it! I kicked my coffee table trying to save a moth and it split my toes......one toe is really not looking good and I'm hobbling about like a well hobbling thing....


Well done for being determined, it doesn't matter if you hop or hobble, good luck and I hope you won't be in too much pain

xx



buffie said:


> Firstly @sarahecp good luck for tomorrow hope Frankie isn't too upset by the experience.
> @MoochH isn't this fun  believe me you do(on the whole) learn to live with all the ups and downs that go with IBD,at least when you have had enough we can all come on this thread and have a whinge
> @Forester good to read that metronidazole hasn't caused Dyl any ill effects,paws crossed it makes a difference,
> @nicolaa123 hope your toe doesn't cause you too much pain on Sunday.Were you by any chance going about the house in bare feet,my daughter did that and caught her little toe on the door pillar and snapped it in half.4 toes were pointing straight and the little one was at a 90 degree angle to them .Funnily enough she no longer wanders around without some form of footwear now
> Hope Riley is still doing okay
> Meeko is still plodding on now 5 weeks and counting and just the one "return" 2 weeks ago


Thanks again Buffie, will keep you all updated tomorrow.

Glad Meeko is still doing well 

xx


----------



## Forester

Well, typically Dylan had a reaction to the metronidazole last night.. About 1 and 1/2 hours after giving the evening dose he started to tremble all over with his tail having a marked twitch rather than a tremble, if you know what I mean. It lasted about 5 minutes and he appeared normal afterwards and first thing this morning.

I rang the OOH vet for advice on whether to give the dose this morning. She told me that, as it was day time and it would be easy to monitor him , to give the morning dose then watch him closely. I was told to ring for advice if he reacts again and it either lasts any longer or is any more obvious. Typically Dyl vomited breakfast and then took himself to bed so I was unable to give the metro.He slept all morning though whether that is due to the metro or to feeling rough after being sick I don't know. He got up just before 1 and had a little to eat so I've given him his dose. I'm now waiting anxiously. To be honest Dylan has gone back to sleep but *I'm* trembling now. I'll let you know later how he is. Famous PF vibes welcome.

@sarahecp, Any news on Frankie yet? Sending positive vibes for him and ((( hugs ))) for you.xx


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Well, typically Dylan had a reaction to the metronidazole last night.. About 1 and 1/2 hours after giving the evening dose he started to tremble all over with his tail having a marked twitch rather than a tremble, if you know what I mean. It lasted about 5 minutes and he appeared normal afterwards and first thing this morning.
> 
> I rang the OOH vet for advice on whether to give the dose this morning. She told me that, as it was day time and it would be easy to monitor him , to give the morning dose then watch him closely. I was told to ring for advice if he reacts again and it either lasts any longer or is any more obvious. Typically Dyl vomited breakfast and then took himself to bed so I was unable to give the metro.He slept all morning though whether that is due to the metro or to feeling rough after being sick I don't know. He got up just before 1 and had a little to eat so I've given him his dose. I'm now waiting anxiously. To be honest Dylan has gone back to sleep but *I'm* trembling now. I'll let you know later how he is. Famous PF vibes welcome.
> 
> @sarahecp, Any news on Frankie yet? Sending positive vibes for him and ((( hugs ))) for you.xx


Oh Sylv, poor Dyl  and poor you  you must have been so worried, I can imagine how concerned you are watching him like a hawk and waiting to see if it happens again. Really hoping Dyl is ok and doesn't have anymore episodes.

Is this one if the side effects of Metronidazole?

I'm sorry to hear that Dyl has also been sick 

Sending lots and lots of positive and good vibes Dyl's way and sending hugs to you both xx

Please keep us updated.

I called just after 2pm they said this morning that if I don't hear by then to give them a ring, he still hadn't been seen due to a couple of emergencies, they will call me once he's been seen.

I will update as soon as I get some news.


----------



## buffie

Sorry Sylv didn't see this post till after I replied to your other one,lots of PF vibes on their way to you both, hope Dyl is okay xx


----------



## Forester

Thanks @sarahecp, and @buffie. I would be lost without you

Dyl started , I think, to have another turn about 15 minutes ago but the phone rang and he " woke" with a jolt after about 15 to 20 seconds. He seems fine now.

Yes , metronidazole crosses the blood /brain barrier and can be neurotoxic. Seizures and even death can occur but they are usually considered to happen either after overdose or prolonged use. This is why No3 told me that he could only have it for a max of 2 weeks.

There is no way that I'm going to be giving it to him unless I can watch him for at least the next 4 hours each time.

What have we always said about IBD cats not reacting to anything in the same way as non IBD cats?

He looks o k now but I'm not taking my eyes off him for a while.

Right, off to see whether we have an update on the handsome Frankie. Black boys unite.!


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> Thanks @sarahecp, and @buffie. I would be lost without you
> 
> Dyl started , I think, to have another turn about 15 minutes ago but the phone rang and he " woke" with a jolt after about 15 to 20 seconds. He seems fine now.
> 
> Yes , metronidazole crosses the blood /brain barrier and can be neurotoxic. Seizures and even death can occur but they are usually considered to happen either after overdose or prolonged use. This is why No3 told me that he could only have it for a max of 2 weeks.
> 
> There is no way that I'm going to be giving it to him unless I can watch him for at least the next 4 hours each time.
> 
> What have we always said about IBD cats not reacting to anything in the same way as non IBD cats?
> 
> He looks o k now but I'm not taking my eyes off him for a while.
> 
> Right, off to see whether we have an update on the handsome Frankie. Black boys unite.!


Oh Sylv, I'm sorry that Dyl has had another turn  so glad he seems fine now.

When was the last Metronidazole given? Does there seem to be a patten like how long after he's had it?

I did not know that! I must admit that what I've read about it is only how it can help IBD symptoms and some parasite/infections. I didn't read up on any side effects.

did you call the vets and let them know it happened again? I'd be reluctant to give it to him again unless like you say you can't take your eyes off f him.

Keep us updated and hope he doesn't have anymore xx

The nurse just called, Frankie is fine, they didn't need to sedate him, which shocks me!

I have no news on the results and have to wait until 5:45 to see the vet at the discharge appointment.

I asked if I could come sooner as my concerns are Frankie being stressed and upset and she said they have no earlier appts and Frankie is fine as they've put his carrier in the cage with him.

More waiting!

Will update later.


----------



## Forester

@sarahecp, that's fantastic news that Frankie is fine, and that they didn't have to sedate him. Perhaps he's becoming more chilled about vet visits after all.
I'll look in, as if I wouldn't , when I get back tonight to find out what your vets have to say.

I'm actually more relaxed about Dylan's second " episode" than I was after the first. This was only for probably 15 seconds and was just his eyes. The phone ringing jerked him out of it and he didn't relapse. He's sleeping more than he did before starting the Metro. but apart from the 2 episodes he seems his normal self. I was told to ring my vets if he had an episode which lasted longer than the 5 minutes of the first or if it was more severe. IMO episode 2 was less severe than episode 1 although after googling last night ( slapped wrists ) I was quite frightened for him when it happened. I'm wondering whether he had " episodes" with the first 2 doses but that I didn't see them. If they'd happened with him in his bed, and not cuddled up next to me I wouldn't have noticed them. You can bet your last penny though that I won't be letting him out of my sight for more than a few seconds after dosing him with the metro. again.

The metronidazole *has to work. *Even with the pred. and lamb he's been sick 3 times this week.

Hoping that Riley, Roman, Meeko and Blue are all continuing to set a good example to Dylan and that Nicola's toe is recovering.

love to all


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> Well, typically Dylan had a reaction to the metronidazole last night.. About 1 and 1/2 hours after giving the evening dose he started to tremble all over with his tail having a marked twitch rather than a tremble, if you know what I mean. It lasted about 5 minutes and he appeared normal afterwards and first thing this morning.
> 
> I rang the OOH vet for advice on whether to give the dose this morning. She told me that, as it was day time and it would be easy to monitor him , to give the morning dose then watch him closely. I was told to ring for advice if he reacts again and it either lasts any longer or is any more obvious. Typically Dyl vomited breakfast and then took himself to bed so I was unable to give the metro.He slept all morning though whether that is due to the metro or to feeling rough after being sick I don't know. He got up just before 1 and had a little to eat so I've given him his dose. I'm now waiting anxiously. To be honest Dylan has gone back to sleep but *I'm* trembling now. I'll let you know later how he is. Famous PF vibes welcome.
> 
> @sarahecp, Any news on Frankie yet? Sending positive vibes for him and ((( hugs ))) for you.xx


Is the dose a 1/4 of a tablet as that is what Riley has, I was told keep an eye if he has "drunk like" symptoms to call the vets, but he never has so he always has the high dose now.

Also when Riley had the liver problem he was on a huge cocktail of ab's and extras so even if the metronidazole doesn't work there are other ab's


----------



## sarahecp

@Forester Sylv, I'm pleased to hear you're more relaxed about Dyl's episodes 

You go out and enjoy your evening, I'm sure Dyl will be ok and your OH will watch him like a hawk for you.

Update on Frankie, I'm not sure if he'll be joining the IBD club or not 

Nothing untoward was found on his scan, vet mentioned protein levels in his blood and a few likely causes one was FIP and said that we could run test for Coronavirus but she doesn't think that would be the cause as he is well in himself and is healthy apart from the dire rear. She does think IBD could be the cause.

She also mentioned the usual, full thickness biopsies, endoscopy and chlorambcil but would prefer to go down the single novel protein diet first. She said that as I have the experience and knowledge with Ro's dire rear she's confident that change in diet will help.

Frank won't touch the skippy, I have done rabbit that I will try him with. Do you think I should give him just rabbit only or do slow intros into his usual food?

If the rabbit doesn't work out, I know there are others I can try from VC.

I need to update the vet next Thursday to let her know how things are going.

Frank isn't going to be as easy to keep an eye on like Ro, so I know I have a challenge on my hands. I'm thinking positive and determined the crack this.

I hope all masters, mistresses, slaves and toes are all ok xx xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Slow intro and fingers crossed he eats it x


----------



## buffie

A bit of mixed news really,although it does ring IBD alarm bells.
Agree with Nicola slow intro's would be my choice but then I really cant give much advice on the diet front as Meeko is not a willing participant when it comes to diet change.
As you say being an "outie" will make diet a tad more tricky,does he tend to "catch and eat" or go visiting.
Definitely going the diet route would be/was my choice ,plenty time to think of endoscopy's etc if the diet doesn't improve things.
I think the vet is being a bit optimistic in asking for a review in 6/7 days though


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Slow intro and fingers crossed he eats it x





buffie said:


> A bit of mixed news really,although it does ring IBD alarm bells.
> Agree with Nicola slow intro's would be my choice but then I really cant give much advice on the diet front as Meeko is not a willing participant when it comes to diet change.
> As you say being an "outie" will make diet a tad more tricky,does he tend to "catch and eat" or go visiting.
> Definitely going the diet route would be/was my choice ,plenty time to think of endoscopy's etc if the diet doesn't improve things.
> I think the vet is being a bit optimistic in asking for a review in 6/7 days though


Thanks both  xx

I will go with the slow intros. route.

To my knowledge Frank doesn't hunt, he's never brought anything home and isn't bothered when Seb does. I think he's too nervous of people to visit for food. But I cannot be 100% certain he's not eating anything outside. I know he munches on grass a lot.

I think the vet is being very optimistic, if only it was as quick as that!


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Is the dose a 1/4 of a tablet as that is what Riley has, I was told keep an eye if he has "drunk like" symptoms to call the vets, but he never has so he always has the high dose now.
> 
> Also when Riley had the liver problem he was on a huge cocktail of ab's and extras so even if the metronidazole doesn't work there are other ab's


Yes, He's on 1/4 tablet , twice daily , though has only had one dose today. He's had 4 doses now.

No3 has said that she will contact Langfords again if there is no improvement after the metro. , (and also presumably if he can't tolerate the metro.)

OH insists that Dyl has been his usual self all evening ( as I was fairly confident that he would be . I think that the danger period for dose no4 was over before I went out). I will be attending to my horse early tomorrow morning so that I can observe Dylan closely again. If necessary, I will be on the phone to my vets.

I too, think that a change of diet is the first option to try for Frankie. It doesn't sound as though Frank is " eating out" so a change of diet shouldn't be too difficult as long as he is willing to eat the offered food. Dyl and I have fingers and paws crossed that a diet change will be sufficient. Personally, I would imagine that it would take a while on a new diet before improvement would be obvious.

Take care, everyone. love to all.


----------



## Forester

I've decided not to give any more metronidazole until I've had a good chat with No3. Dylan was sick after the metro. this morning ( as opposed to after his breakfast, trust me I'm confident about this )buffie will probably understand me best on this one. He's been sick twice since the metro started on Wed evening so I think that it might be making him worse rather than better ). We just seem to be going backwards all the time.

@nicolaa123. Those a/bs you were thinking of, do you know whether any of them have anti inflammatory properties? The metro. was being used for its anti inflammatory properties and not because its an antibiotic. I'm really fearing for Dylan now, we've exhausted all of Langfords original suggestions and he's still deteriorating.


----------



## buffie

@Forester Sylv I understand completely,when Meeko is being sick there is a pattern just as you have found with Dyl,any change in that pattern has me looking for a different explanation for the vomit.
I would stop the metronidazole too ,at least until you speak to No 3 vet ,it may not be the cause but when poor Dyl already has a problem I wouldn't be wanting to give him any more reason to vomit.

I'm sorry I cant offer any help on the a/b front as Meeko is allergic/reacts to most meds so my vet tries not to give him anything unless it is absolutely necessary,hell he even reacted to canaural and cant have hibiscrub used when bloods are taken 

As I've said already at the moment he is the best he has ever been and that is with only Famotidine,although sometimes I do wonder if having freedom to wander out and in to his run has played a part as we are fairly certain stress is playing a part in his condition.
I will PM you my phone number,I'm here if you want to talk things through xx


----------



## sarahecp

@Forester Sylv, sorry to hear Dyl has been sick again this morning  I think you're making the right decision not giving the Metronidazole anymore until you've spoken to No.3 it obviously isn't agreeing with him.

With Buffie mentioning Famotidine, I cannot remember if Dyl has had this in the past? If not do you think this may help? Just thinking out aloud.

I really do hope that Langfords have some more meds in mind to try to help Dyl.

Sending lots more positive and good vibes for Dyl and love and hugs to you both xx


----------



## Forester

O K For the record Dylan is now off the metronidazole. No3 and I are in complete agreement that it doesn't suit him. She was concerned that he might have a full blown seizure that he might not come out of .Although it means that we've exhausted everything suggested by Langfords I do feel better now that he's off it. It was horrible, and quite frightening ,to see him have the " turns".

No3 is going to contact Langfords on Monday to ask for advice. She has told me that she's on call all weekend so to ring at any time if I'm concerned. I'm confident that Dylan will be o k now the metro. has been stopped.

We discussed food a little and I said that I'd wondered whether he might have been better with rabbit rather than lamb . I've been told to let him have some rabbit as well if I feel that he'll be o k with it.

Dylan is now asleep in OH's chair, obviously enjoying all of the good wishes that he's been sent.Thank you.

@sarahecp Have you started introducing any rabbit with Frankie yet?. How's he doing?

Did you keep those microchip feeders after?. It sounds as though they could be very useful. I do feel for you having 3 on different diets. It must be a nightmare.

I suggested Famotidine to No3 when I first saw her but she said that she couldn't see any advantages of it over the ranitidine Dylan is on. I've just bought 100 ranitidine tablets but I might mention famotidine again depending on what Langfords say. Anything is worth a try.

@buffie. I'm so sorry that Meeko has had the health problems that he has but I do find it very reassuring to know that your experiences have been very similar to mine.I also find it very helpful to know how you have tackled / coped with things.

Sometimes I almost think that Dylan has been reading about Meeko over my shoulder and has tried to emulate him. I'll know for sure if I see him in the kitchen practicing throwing crockery.

@nicolaa123 Good Luck for tomorrow. I hope that toe is feeling more comfortable.

@ MoochH How is Mooch now?

love and positive vibes to all
xx


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv, I'm pleased that No.3 was in agreement to stop the Metro. And I'm glad Dyl is not taking it anymore. I must admit I was scared when you told us about his episodes. 

I hope Langfords have a plan of what next to try, keeping everything crossed here for the next lot of meds. 

Sounds like Dyl is feeling relaxed bless him. 

Are you going to try the rabbit again?

I gave Frank a teaspoon of rabbit mixed in with Sheba with his breakfast and he wasn't keen, same at lunchtime. Gave him some not long ago and he ate it  we'll see what mood he is in later! 

I still have the microchip feeders, they are in the cupboard  I'm going to have to get them out and start with the training again.


----------



## Forester

sarahecp said:


> Sylv, I'm pleased that No.3 was in agreement to stop the Metro. And I'm glad Dyl is not taking it anymore. I must admit I was scared when you told us about his episodes.
> 
> I hope Langfords have a plan of what next to try, keeping everything crossed here for the next lot of meds.
> 
> Sounds like Dyl is feeling relaxed bless him.
> 
> Are you going to try the rabbit again?
> 
> I gave Frank a teaspoon of rabbit mixed in with Sheba with his breakfast and he wasn't keen, same at lunchtime. Gave him some not long ago and he ate it  we'll see what mood he is in later!
> 
> I still have the microchip feeders, they are in the cupboard  I'm going to have to get them out and start with the training again.


The second , short episode was like something from a horror film. I hope that I never witness anything like that again. I'd been trying to tell myself that it wasn't as worrying as the first one but I was frightened for him.

I don't know whether I'm expecting Langfords to come up with much to be honest. We've already worked through their list of suggestions. The trouble with Dyl is he doesn't seem to be able to tolerate the recognised treatments. - couldn't take metronidazole, couldn't tolerate more than 4mg pred, reacts to every novel protein, vomits all dry food, refuses to eat plasticine, whoops , z/d. .can't eat more than 50g food in one go.all tests normal other than ultrasound.

I'm just going to give Dyl a little bit of boiled rabbit as well as his lamb for a couple of days to see whether it makes any difference. I'm wondering whether the lamb might be too high in fat. The JWB lamb is low fat , 4.5% but its only 36% lamb and contains several ingredients which I've seen on a list of things unsuitable for cats with IBD- cranberries, potato, yucca to name some which come to mind. Its probably only until No3 has consulted with Langfords.

Just wondering about Frankie and the rabbit. Might he be more willing to accept it if it was served separate to his usual food rather than mixed in? When changing Eric over to Bozita I found that he would eat it if it was served separately but not if it was mixed in. . I have a theory that it was because he knew the taste of his Felix and a bit of new food mixed in made it taste " not right". Changing the proportions also made it taste differently each day. Its probably a daft theory but then I am a bit daft.

Fingers crossed that a change of food is all that Frankie needs to get him back to his handsome best 

Must go, I have a bunny boiling and I smell burning.

xx


----------



## sarahecp

@Forester Sylv, keeping everything crossed for Langfords to come up with some different meds, options and a plan for Dyl. I hope the rabbit helps.

Are you still free feeding?

I used your tip and gave the rabbit to Frankie separately and he ate it last night and again this morning, thank you  What else I did was, I put a teaspoon of rabbit and a teaspoon of skippy on a plate to let him choose, the rabbit won 

Frank never used to be fussy, would eat anything and everything, I've worked out that it's since I've stopped leaving food down or it could be he's taking tips from Seb 

Hope everyone is doing ok this morning xx


----------



## Forester

@sarahecp, I'm so glad that my suggestion of not mixing the foods together has helped Frankie over his rabbit.. I hope that he continues to enjoy it and that it suits him.

I'm not sure whether you would consider my current feeding routine as free feeding or not. Its difficult, ( what isn't , with our " special" boys and girls ?  ). The ranitidine has to be given at least half an hour before a meal and I believe is best on an empty stomach so I try to give that about 40 minutes before about 1/2 a pouch. Dylan has never done well with more than about 1/2 a pouch at a time and was eating between 4 and 5 pouches per day of the JWB lamb. He tends to want to eat about 80% of his food between about 6pm and 6am so I try to fit that in as well. I don't use the auto feeder any more. I get up to him. We have an " arrangement" that when he calls to me at the side of the bed I get up to give him more food. The only issue with this is that he's started to wake me up just to request a belly rub :Hilarious :Grumpy .

At least the feeding is less complicated now that the metro. has stopped. That needed to be on a full stomach so I had to wait 15 -20 minutes after feeding to see whether Dylan would be sick before I could give it. Meal times were taking an hour.

I'm sorry that Frank is being more fussy with his food. In my experience they all seem to do that as they get older, cats and men! 

Hoping that everyone is having a great day and that Nicola's toe is not being too problematic. @nicolaa123 You are a shining example to the rest of us. You deserve to have a successful and enjoyable day.

love to all
xx


----------



## MoochH

@Forester oh my, so sorry to hear of the trouble the medication has caused Dylan, I've been reading your other thread on it too. You must have been so worried.
I hope there is an alternative you can try.

Moochie has been a superstar :Angelic She is munching her RC Chicken & Rice no problem and had a tiny bit of plain roast chicken today. She is back to ony having about 10 pieces of dry a day which I'm pleased about as for a while there it was her main food option.She doesn't seem to mind missing her lunchtime prawns anymore ... there was two days where she sat by the feeder looking at me like I was the devil ...feeder now removed. Poo wise all going well so far ...eeek, not sure I should have written that as last time there was blood-mucas the next day :Yuck Anyway, I have another week until the vet appointment so lets hope they are all blood free.

:Kiss:Kiss:Kiss
Big kisses to Dylan, Meeko, the Sarahecp household, Riley and all the other furries having troubles.


----------



## Forester

That's brilliant news @MoochH. I am so pleased for you and Mooch. It does sound as though you are going to establish what has been causing her a problem fairly easily. Fingers and everything else crossed for you that her poo remains blood free.

Its heart wrenching when they ask for something that you know they mustn't have.

I'm trying to think positively about the metronidazole experience. At least we have discovered that he can't take it. I dread to think what would have happened had I not witnessed his " funny turns". I just hope that Langfords are not going to say " try again". Surely they couldn't after what happened ?! I couldn't put either of us through that again.

Here's hoping that Frankie is loving his rabbit, and that all of the regulars are doing well.

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

Slyv what about a smaller dose of the metrondiazole the 1/4 is a hefty dose, it is a good drug for what they need it to do, a smaller dose may have less side effects, certainly something to ask langfords about. The other ab's were not for their anti inflammatory purpose sadly. I just wonder if it was the dosage rather than the actual drug, I personally would try a smaller dose.

Other than that the only other meds to try are the immunosureppresive drugs.

More about ab's and other drugs to talk about here

http://www.allfelinehospital.com/inflammatory-bowel-disease.pml


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## nicolaa123

Has Dylan tried cerenia or *Metoclopramide*


----------



## sarahecp

MoochH said:


> @Forester oh my, so sorry to hear of the trouble the medication has caused Dylan, I've been reading your other thread on it too. You must have been so worried.
> I hope there is an alternative you can try.
> 
> Moochie has been a superstar :Angelic She is munching her RC Chicken & Rice no problem and had a tiny bit of plain roast chicken today. She is back to ony having about 10 pieces of dry a day which I'm pleased about as for a while there it was her main food option.She doesn't seem to mind missing her lunchtime prawns anymore ... there was two days where she sat by the feeder looking at me like I was the devil ...feeder now removed. Poo wise all going well so far ...eeek, not sure I should have written that as last time there was blood-mucas the next day :Yuck Anyway, I have another week until the vet appointment so lets hope they are all blood free.
> 
> :Kiss:Kiss:Kiss
> Big kisses to Dylan, Meeko, the Sarahecp household, Riley and all the other furries having troubles.


That's fantastic news @MoochH and well done Mooch for being a superstar  

Keeping everything crossed Mooch continues to do well.

Keep us updates and let us know how the vet visit goes xx


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Slyv what about a smaller dose of the metrondiazole the 1/4 is a hefty dose, it is a good drug for what they need it to do, a smaller dose may have less side effects, certainly something to ask langfords about. The other ab's were not for their anti inflammatory purpose sadly. I just wonder if it was the dosage rather than the actual drug, I personally would try a smaller dose.
> 
> Other than that the only other meds to try are the immunosureppresive drugs.
> 
> More about ab's and other drugs to talk about here
> 
> http://www.allfelinehospital.com/inflammatory-bowel-disease.pml


Thanks @nicolaa123. You are always so helpful.

How did your run go today?. I haven't had time to see if you've posted elsewhere but will do it shortly. I hope that your toe did not cause you too much discomfort.

I've seen that link before but, you know how it is, you can get something new from an article each time you read it. I will read it again.

I'm expecting to have a good chat with No3 once she's consulted with Langfords. To be completely honest, after last week's incidents with the metronidazole I'd be frightened to give him any at all unless there was absolutely no option. He must be extremely sensitive to it. It was horrible to see his whole body trembling uncontrollably and the incident with his eyes was like something from a horror film. I'll say this quietly but.....I'd rather try feeding horse..

I will need to discuss immunosuppressants with No3 . She has previously told me that she doesn't want to suppress Dylan's immune system .The specialist who did Dylan's ultrasound felt that he was trying to fight some sort of infection, although we have been unable to identify one. His ultrasound showed just a very faint indication of inflammation in the loops of the jejunum ( I think) which led to the diagnosis of IBD but also an area of noticeable thickening in the ileum. This she felt was due to some type of infection but could be neoplasia, although she felt that neoplasia was unlikely. I'm confident that Langfords will suggest immunosuppressants if they think that they would help.



nicolaa123 said:


> Has Dylan tried cerenia or *Metoclopramide*


He had a cerenia injection, at my request, when he had the blood taken for the folate/cobalamin test. I requested this as he is always sick whenever he goes a long time without food. It gave me a blissfull 2 days without vomiting but I don't know whether it can be used in chronic as opposed to acute situations.

Metoclopramide - no he hasn't. I will be off to research it, thanks.

I know that there's been another post on this thread since I started this reply but I'm going to get in a mess if I leave this reply to look at it so I'll post now.

love and positive vibes to all
xx


----------



## nicolaa123

I think cerenia can be used as a way to treat the vomiting, I've only known as an injection but so worth looking into if this could be given orally or even if you could inject at home to stop the vomiting. Maybe you have begun to find a solution??

As for the metrondiazole you could try a smaller dose and see if the same reaction of so then yes it's on the no list if no reaction it could be a very useful drug..

Oh an no run..toe is broken (my Saturday evening at a&e) I couldn't walk in the end so had to go..now I'm on rest for two weeks.....yeah right!


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I think cerenia can be used as a way to treat the vomiting, I've only known as an injection but so worth looking into if this could be given orally or even if you could inject at home to stop the vomiting. Maybe you have begun to find a solution??
> 
> As for the metrondiazole you could try a smaller dose and see if the same reaction of so then yes it's on the no list if no reaction it could be a very useful drug..
> 
> Oh an no run..toe is broken (my Saturday evening at a&e) I couldn't walk in the end so had to go..now I'm on rest for two weeks.....yeah right!


Oh Nicola I'm so sorry about your toe. I realise that you must be gutted to have not been able to do your run but *its not your fault. *Take it easy, you really must take care not to make it any worse. There will be other runs which you can do when your toe has healed.

I'll see what Langfords suggest for Dylan, I'm sure that they know better than I do. I certainly wouldn't relish giving Dylan any more metronidazole. Its not as if it was a side effect which could easily be put right by stopping the metro. As no3 said she was worried that he might have a reaction that he would not survive. He's cuddled up next to me now and about 10 minutes ago his legs started to shake for about 15 seconds. I don't know whether he still has any metro. in his system or whether he was just having a bad dream and I've become paranoid about it.


----------



## sarahecp

Sylv @Forester I found the little packet last night that Frankie's Metro came in (no idea why I kept it) it sounds like he was on the same dose as Dyl, 200mg, a qtr twice a day, 12 hours apart, the course was for 6 days. I'm not sure of the dosage of Ro's as that was before I kept my diary.

Just my thoughts, but if I was you I wouldn't want to try the Metro again even at a lower dose, just to be on the safe side.

I hope you hear from No.3 today with some good news from Langfords.

Hope everyone is doing ok xx


----------



## Forester

Thanks @sarahecp. I desperately hope that Langfords can come up with something else to try for Dylan. I know that metronidazole has been fantastic for Riley, and many other cats but my experiences with it have really frightened me. Its useful to know that Frankie's dose was the same as that given to Dylan. I was under the impression that this dose is fairly standard for IBD.

The more I think about it the more disturbed I feel about Dylan's reaction. I do think that yesterday evening's rapid leg jerking was possibly related to the metro still in his system. I've read that neurological side effects can take 1 to 2 weeks to subside. I'm also wondering if we're going to be able to find _anything _which will help but that he doesn't react to.

Sending positive and healing vibes to Blue, Frank, Meeko, Mooch, Riley, Roman, Rosie, Stan, anyone I've missed out. . . . . and Nicola's toe


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## nicolaa123

As it seems idiopathic in nature..I would try this

http://cerenia.com


----------



## nicolaa123

More inofo

https://thelearningvet.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/what-i-couldnt-live-without-cerenia/


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## nicolaa123

https://sites.google.com/site/felinehealthcare/home/inflammatory

This one also says use cannabis

http://www.cannaforpets.com/blog/inflammatory-bowel-disease


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## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> As it seems idiopathic in nature..I would try this
> 
> http://cerenia.com





nicolaa123 said:


> More inofo
> 
> https://thelearningvet.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/what-i-couldnt-live-without-cerenia/





nicolaa123 said:


> https://sites.google.com/site/felinehealthcare/home/inflammatory
> 
> This one also says use cannabis
> 
> http://www.cannaforpets.com/blog/inflammatory-bowel-disease


Those links look great @nicolaa123. There are several there which I have never seen before.

I now have lots of research to do. Thank you so much. Maybe things aren't as hopeless as I was thinking. I feel mentally exhausted after the last few days.

Thinking of IBDers everywhere and sending positive vibes and good wishes to all
xx


----------



## sarahecp

Afternoon all 

An update on Frankie, we're doing well with the rabbit just as long as I don't put any other food on the plate, so a little bit of rabbit and then he has his usual food after he's eaten it. 

We do have a bit of a problem though, we've gone backwards to how Frankie used to be with staying out all day and night and only coming in for food then straight back out again, if I lock the cat flap at night he will get so upset and stressed, he's even escaped quite a few times, being out all night worried me to death back then and is doing the same now. So I'm locking the flap so Seb and Ro can't get out but Frank can get in if he wants to, but wouldn't be able to get back out unless he did his magic trick and escaped. 

Though I don't like it one bit, but I'm letting him do what he wants, I can't have him getting upset and stressed as this will more than likely make him worse. 

He's had at least 6-7 vet visits in the last 6 weeks and I feel the trust Has now gone and I've got to help him get that trust back again. 

So with him being out all the time he's not poo'd in the tray and I've not seen him poo in the garden, no dire rear either on poo patrol. 

I spoke to the vet today to update her, told her the rabbit is going well and explained about the not coming in situation. She said as long as I can keep an eye on his weight and that he doesn't start to lose any and that I don't have any concerns she'd prefer if we had a chat once a month rather than see him and get him stressed. She agreed that I need to get him to trust me again. 

I asked her about whether it would be ok to give him some Zylkene, she said that if he hasn't had a reaction to it in the past with vomiting and causing dire rear he should be fine to take it. He's had it whilst he's had Cattery stays and none was reported by the owner, I trust her. So I'm going to start him on it when he comes in for dinner and see how we go. 

All is good with Ro, and Seb is behaving. 

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all doing ok xx xx


----------



## nicolaa123

I agree Sarah and I am sure you will win him back over in no time. I think also a great idea of your vet (sounds a bit like mine) with the consult with you without bringing him in saves a lot of stress!

Great relationship with your vet = priceless!

Hope frankies gets back to glory very soon..


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> I agree Sarah and I am sure you will win him back over in no time. I think also a great idea of your vet (sounds a bit like mine) with the consult with you without bringing him in saves a lot of stress!
> 
> Great relationship with your vet = priceless!
> 
> Hope frankies gets back to glory very soon..


Thanks Nicola  I'm sure we'll get there.

She's a lovely vet, only seen her a couple of times but it's nice to have one you can trust and that understands, there are only a couple at my surgery like that and try to see them when I can.


----------



## Forester

I'm glad to hear that Frankie is eating his rabbit.

I too am sure that he will regain confidence in time. It sounds as though he is worried about not being able to control whether he is in or out. I'm confident that, with your understanding approach, @sarahecp he will soon be back to his old self. The zylkene is a great idea.

I haven't heard from No3 yet .I've been at hospital with OH nearly all day but was disappointed that there was no message on the answerphone when I got home. Whatever Langfords suggest I want to discuss the possibility of using cerenia , ( thanks Nicola  ) as well as trying ranitidine 3 times daily. No3 has told me that I can give the ranitidine 3 times instead of 2 but its difficult to arrange timing. Dyl doesn't eat between 11am and 4pm but likes to eat small quantities every 2 to 3 hours up to 2am.

On a brighter note Dylan's run is nearly finished   . I'd like to think that being able to go outside will help him. Delivery and erection is provisionally booked for Monday 27th. I can't wait.

Hoping that all masters, mistresses and slaves are happy and blip free.

xx


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Nicola  I'm sure we'll get there.
> 
> She's a lovely vet, only seen her a couple of times but it's nice to have one you can trust and that understands, there are only a couple at my surgery like that and try to see them when I can.


Ah that's good, I only have one, but to fair I've not tried the new vets at the practise...there could be more, but I'm more than happy right now with mine, knowing I can have telephone consults and also that she trusts me to know when he needs to come in and when he doesn't is so important for their stress levels..


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> I'm glad to hear that Frankie is eating his rabbit.
> 
> I too am sure that he will regain confidence in time. It sounds as though he is worried about not being able to control whether he is in or out. I'm confident that, with your understanding approach, @sarahecp he will soon be back to his old self. The zylkene is a great idea.
> 
> I haven't heard from No3 yet .I've been at hospital with OH nearly all day but was disappointed that there was no message on the answerphone when I got home. Whatever Langfords suggest I want to discuss the possibility of using cerenia , ( thanks Nicola  ) as well as trying ranitidine 3 times daily. No3 has told me that I can give the ranitidine 3 times instead of 2 but its difficult to arrange timing. Dyl doesn't eat between 11am and 4pm but likes to eat small quantities every 2 to 3 hours up to 2am.
> 
> On a brighter note Dylan's run is nearly finished   . I'd like to think that being able to go outside will help him. Delivery and erection is provisionally booked for Monday 27th. I can't wait.
> 
> Hoping that all masters, mistresses and slaves are happy and blip free.
> 
> xx


Thanks Sylv 

I hope you hear from No.3 soon, I'm feeling positive about the Cereina, I've had a quick read up.

You're sounding more positive and sounds like you have a good plan in mind  So keeping all crossed that all works out well.

How exciting   I really do think the run will be good for Dyl and help him too, I can't wait to hear all about his reaction to his run


----------



## Forester

I've taken Dylan to the vets today. I rang on Friday, hoping to speak to No3 and was told that she'd just started 2 weeks holiday. At the time I rang I was pretty much at breaking point.

I've seen another vet today . She refused to give Dylan a cerenia injection as he hasn't been sick since Friday. She also refused to let me have any cerenia tablets . She has however said that she will attempt to familiarise herself with Dylan's ( very extensive  ) notes and will ring Langfords to ask about cerenia protocol.

Strangely, I hit the Rescue Remedy on Friday and Dylan hasn't been sick since. I'm still feeling pretty close to the edge but hopefully we will find something which can help him.

love and positive vibes to all masters, mistresses and slaves


----------



## Calypso5

Hello everyone, my five year old cat Dexter was diagnosed with a grade 3 heart murmur when he was around two. Last week I took him to the vets worried about his rapid breathing and panting. He ended up in hospital for 3 days. Initially I was told HCM but now vet is saying it's more complicated than that. The problem seems to be more on the right side of the heart plus the heart itself is an odd shape. He's had an x Ray and ultrasound scan. An echocardiogram was mentioned but I'm not sure if that was carried out as the vet is not a specialist and said she would talk to the cardiologist over the weekend. Also 300ml of fluid was drained from his lungs. Anyway Dexter is on Vetmedin twice a day and Nelio once a day. He is eating well and breathing seems stable, however he is quite lethargic. I have another appointment with the vet tomorrow to learn more about his condition.

I have been really distressed and like others panicking that my cat was going to drop dead at any moment. I'm just out of hospital myself after major surgery for suspected cancer and am overwhelmed by feelings of not being able to cope with Dexter's illness. Also finding administering the Vetmedin very stressful. Vet had suggested euthanasia but I am not ready to say goodbye. Also apart from the lethargy he seems to be doing really well. His appetite is great.

Really hoping for some reassurance from other cat owners that I am doing the right thing not having him PTS.


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv @Forester

I'm really pleased to hear that Dyl hasn't been sick since Friday, keeping everything crossed.

I'm sorry things didn't go to plan with No.5 and discussing the Cereina, again keeping everything crossed that you get some answers soon from Langfords and they have a plan for Dyl.

I think you need to keep up the rescue remedy, sounds like it's doing some good for the both of you  stay positive, it's hard I know xx

Things are all good here, Frank is still eating the rabbit  got my delivery from VC today, didn't order tons of rabbit just in case, but I did order a pack of 6 x 100g of Hartley Hare, Rudolph and Billy. Gave Seb some Billy and he ate the whole tin  can't see it happening next time round!! But he might surprise me!

Still not seen any poo's from Frank, Zylzene not kicked in properly yet, usually takes a couple of weeks with Frank and he's still staying out. I keep telling myself we will get there.

Hope all masters, mistresses and slaves are all ok

xx


----------



## Forester

That sounds good news on the food front @sarahecp. I hope that Frank continues to eat , and hopefully do well on, the rabbit. Good too that Seb liked the Billy. Roman must have set a good example to them both with his Skippy.

Does Frankie take his zylkene mixed into his food?. I tried Dyl with some a while back but he refused to take it mixed in with food and I found the capsules rather large. Of course you will get there with Frankie and he will start wanting to spend more time inside again. A little bit of confidence that he's not going to be whisked off to the vets and a few wet nights will help. He's not going to desert a wonderful home. Having been in a shelter I'm sure that he knows where he's well off.

I'm definitely keeping the RR going for me. It does seem as though my frame of mind helps him. . . or is it that when he's better my frame of mind is better. I'm looking forward to us both being able to go out in his run when it arrives.

Fingers crossed that Langfords will come up with other things for us to try.

love to all

@MoochH, How is Mooch now ?


----------



## sarahecp

Forester said:


> That sounds good news on the food front @sarahecp. I hope that Frank continues to eat , and hopefully do well on, the rabbit. Good too that Seb liked the Billy. Roman must have set a good example to them both with his Skippy.
> 
> Does Frankie take his zylkene mixed into his food?. I tried Dyl with some a while back but he refused to take it mixed in with food and I found the capsules rather large. Of course you will get there with Frankie and he will start wanting to spend more time inside again. A little bit of confidence that he's not going to be whisked off to the vets and a few wet nights will help. He's not going to desert a wonderful home. Having been in a shelter I'm sure that he knows where he's well off.
> 
> I'm definitely keeping the RR going for me. It does seem as though my frame of mind helps him. . . or is it that when he's better my frame of mind is better. I'm looking forward to us both being able to go out in his run when it arrives.
> 
> Fingers crossed that Langfords will come up with other things for us to try.
> 
> love to all
> 
> @MoochH, How is Mooch now ?


I'm keeping everything crossed you hear something soon and don't have to wait too long but I'm pleased the RR is helping 

I add the Zylkene to the food and Frank is happy to eat it. Those capsules are quite big and would imagine them getting stuck on the roof of the mouth. I'm doubling up on the dose 2 x 75g a day.

When I got up this morning Frank was already in so that's a very good sign 

I defiantly think it's a confidence thing and once we get that back and he's coming in and staying in more I'll be happy.


----------



## Saratzah

Hi everyone xx

Stan has been doing so well. Then last night he just wasn't right...nothing specific though I thought his tummy looked distended.

6.30am...projectile vomiting on the bedroom carpet...who needs an alarm clock!!

The rest of the day he's been fairly okay. Asked for food, chased a fly and growled at a passing cat!

Last time he was poorly he'd recently killed 3 baby birds and the two days leading up to this he'd killed a couple of birds so I'm beginning to wonder if this is a cause or just coincidence.

Anyway fingers crossed it's just a blip as he's going into the cattery in 3weeks!

Big loves to all your fur babies

Sarah and Stan xxx


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> Hi everyone xx
> 
> Stan has been doing so well. Then last night he just wasn't right...nothing specific though I thought his tummy looked distended.
> 
> 6.30am...projectile vomiting on the bedroom carpet...who needs an alarm clock!!
> 
> The rest of the day he's been fairly okay. Asked for food, chased a fly and growled at a passing cat!
> 
> Last time he was poorly he'd recently killed 3 baby birds and the two days leading up to this he'd killed a couple of birds so I'm beginning to wonder if this is a cause or just coincidence.
> 
> Anyway fingers crossed it's just a blip as he's going into the cattery in 3weeks!
> 
> Big loves to all your fur babies
> 
> Sarah and Stan xxx


Hi Sarah @Saratzah

I'm sorry to hear that Stan was sick  hoping and keeping everything crossed it's just a blip and it's the bird he's eaten.

I hope Stan will be ok for his holiday at the cattery in a few weeks time and you have a lovely holiday too  xx


----------



## Cookieandme

We all went for annual boosters yesterday and sadly Cookie needs a scale and polish and possible teeth out 

I have been a bit lax with the logic since Ike arrive, so this morning it's back to a proper regime - feel very sad for her. The only consolation is it was recommended she have all her teeth out 3 and a half years ago.


----------



## AFKMatrix

Hi Cookiandme,

I had a good chat with another lady from the forum a few days ago about red gums/calicivirus as my boy Shadow has this and ultimatly had his teeth out. I will repeat what I said to her, is Cookie eating ok, playing and seems happy in his/her self? If Cookie is doing all of these as they have always done then I would hold off on the teeth removal and really go to town on brushing the teeth. I really recommend the toothbrush I linked to as its so much easier than the finger toothbrushes. And you can also start using Plaque Off if you aren't already and there is also a gel called Pet Dent which is good to use as well. But obviously if Cookie is suffering and her gums are really bad then yes tooth extraction could well be needed. If it is I would look at dental specialists on the BVDA website.

Good luck.


----------



## Cookieandme

Yes you are right, brushing isn't an option with Cookie but we have always just licked logic from finger. As I mentioned I think it is down to me as I have been a it lax with her since Ike arrived. I suspect the arrival of Ike did affect her, she had a spate of over grooming and I think the flare up might be attributed to that.

I don't mind her having a scale and polish and we can start again, but tooth extraction was always a last resort which I discussed with the original vet at Companion Care who agreed unless she was in pain or having problems eating then best to leave her.

She definitely isn't having trouble eating as her embarrassing weight gain of 700gms from last year proves


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone

hope all pusscats ok and hello to our newbies although I hope they have only a fleeting visit to thread in the best possible way. Sorry I have been 'busy' on Ivans burn thread...these cats will be the death of me. Blue is well..she loves being out and we don't have a litter tray anymore. Blue has her annual check up on the 12th so I will post any vet comment.

Thank you for popping over to support me during Iv's ordeal...I wont forget the love and hope sent to keep us going. If you lot ever need anything just ask xxxx


----------



## Saratzah

Happy Birthday Stan! 2 today!

How do you treat an ibd cat on his birthday? 

Trip to the vets for his booster! Sorry Stan!


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> hope all pusscats ok and hello to our newbies although I hope they have only a fleeting visit to thread in the best possible way. Sorry I have been 'busy' on Ivans burn thread...these cats will be the death of me. Blue is well..she loves being out and we don't have a litter tray anymore. Blue has her annual check up on the 12th so I will post any vet comment.
> 
> Thank you for popping over to support me during Iv's ordeal...I wont forget the love and hope sent to keep us going. If you lot ever need anything just ask xxxx


Hi Susan @bluecordelia 

I'm pleased to hear Blue is doing well  hope all goes well at her vet check up, let us know how she gets on.

And I'm so glad Iv is doing so well and looking amazing 

xx



Saratzah said:


> Happy Birthday Stan! 2 today!
> 
> How do you treat an ibd cat on his birthday?
> 
> Trip to the vets for his booster! Sorry Stan!


Hi Sarah & Stan @Saratzah 

Happy Birthday gorgeous Stan xx

Hope all goes well at the vets today


----------



## Saratzah

It's official Stan is now officially....overweight!!!!

Last October he was skin and bones and weighed 1.3kg. He is now a chubby 4.89kg!

He's outdoors a lot and has no treats due to his strict diet!

Never thought I'd have to restrict his food!

Sending lots of love to all forum furballs xxx


----------



## sarahecp

Saratzah said:


> It's official Stan is now officially....overweight!!!!
> 
> Last October he was skin and bones and weighed 1.3kg. He is now a chubby 4.89kg!
> 
> He's outdoors a lot and has no treats due to his strict diet!
> 
> Never thought I'd have to restrict his food!
> 
> Sending lots of love to all forum furballs xxx


That's fantastic news   not that he's overweight but that he's done so well 

Well done Stan   xx


----------



## Forester

Wow Saratzah, that's brilliant news. I'm so pleased for you and Stan..

What did you do to achieve that miraculous improvement ? Fingers , and everything else. crossed that Stan's problems are now over.

love to IBDers everywhere.


----------



## bluecordelia

I am hoping Blue turns up for her vet check as the day I booked she must have known and I was having kittens as she disappeared for over 48 hours. She is loving the warmth and mice season . We have flea treated after the shame of her having them on her first check up. She is looking lithe and long. People often say she is huge. 

Will let you all know how we get on x


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> I am hoping Blue turns up for her vet check as the day I booked she must have known and I was having kittens as she disappeared for over 48 hours. She is loving the warmth and mice season . We have flea treated after the shame of her having them on her first check up. She is looking lithe and long. People often say she is huge.
> 
> Will let you all know how we get on x


Naughty Blue  you must have been having kittens!

I'm glad she came home safe and sound  and I bet she wondered what all the fuss was about.

So glad she's doing well  hope all goes well for her checkup xx


----------



## Forester

Its great to hear that Blue is doing so well and is enjoying life to the full ! She probably thought that she deserved a night out after looking after Ivan with such diligence.

Good luck for the vet check. I have every confidence that she will pass with flying colours.

love to all .


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi everyone,

Blue passed with flying colours. he had a good listen to her heart and I was getting a bit twitchy. She was full of sticky bobs as she had been out all night and was in at 9.30am so no time for our daily tweaking session. It was a locum but he had looked at her history and asked about her tum. I was able to report that she is on a raw / wet diet and is a different girl from 18 months ago. 

Hope everyone is ok x


----------



## bluecordelia

If anyone fancies, I have tried my two on Hermans wet pouches...let me know if you would like a try of them.


----------



## Forester

I've been absent for a while as the stress of Dylan's vomiting became more than I could bear. I'm not returning as such now but just wanted to report our progress in case it can help anyone else.

Since providing Dylan with an outside run his vomiting has reduced from approx. 5 - 6 times weekly to about once a week. We have a Feliway plugged in and I'm taking Rescue Remedy several times a day. It certainly looks as though the vomiting has been largely due to stress/anxiety. Vet No3 is working with me and we are starting to taper Dylan's prednisolone. I'm slightly nervous but trying hard not to be. Dylan is a changed cat. I would not have described him as unhappy before but he's now positively blooming. No3 is as happy as I am. We are in agreement that one " return" a week is not how things should be but we may just have to accept that as just the way that he is.

I'd like to tell anyone who has a chronically vomiting cat not to give up no matter how bad things seem. Only a month ago I was at rock bottom. One of the partners at my practice conveyed a message to me, via another vet, that they would not prescribe any new meds for Dylan unless I consented to him having full thickness biopsies, and neither would they contact Langfords for advice. The rationale was that without FTB's they couldn't be sure whether he has IBD or not. ( His ultrasound had been inconclusive ). I almost went elsewhere for a second opinion. Luckily the vet I've seen recently was happy to work with me and we've reached a point which I feared we would never achieve.

I have fingers , and everything else crossed that this progress is maintained but I'm pretty confident that we have finally found a solution for Dylan.  

love to all IBD kitties and slaves


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I've been absent for a while as the stress of Dylan's vomiting became more than I could bear. I'm not returning as such now but just wanted to report our progress in case it can help anyone else.
> 
> Since providing Dylan with an outside run his vomiting has reduced from approx. 5 - 6 times weekly to about once a week. We have a Feliway plugged in and I'm taking Rescue Remedy several times a day. It certainly looks as though the vomiting has been largely due to stress/anxiety. Vet No3 is working with me and we are starting to taper Dylan's prednisolone. I'm slightly nervous but trying hard not to be. Dylan is a changed cat. I would not have described him as unhappy before but he's now positively blooming. No3 is as happy as I am. We are in agreement that one " return" a week is not how things should be but we may just have to accept that as just the way that he is.
> 
> I'd like to tell anyone who has a chronically vomiting cat not to give up no matter how bad things seem. Only a month ago I was at rock bottom. One of the partners at my practice conveyed a message to me, via another vet, that they would not prescribe any new meds for Dylan unless I consented to him having full thickness biopsies, and neither would they contact Langfords for advice. The rationale was that without FTB's they couldn't be sure whether he has IBD or not. ( His ultrasound had been inconclusive ). I almost went elsewhere for a second opinion. Luckily the vet I've seen recently was happy to work with me and we've reached a point which I feared we would never achieve.
> 
> I have fingers , and everything else crossed that this progress is maintained but I'm pretty confident that we have finally found a solution for Dylan.
> 
> love to all IBD kitties and slaves


Hi Sylv so pleased to read such a positive report about Dyl  I too have been awol from the thread so may have missed a few posts.
Wonderful that having his new run has had such a positive effect,I fully agree that stress can and often does cause a lot of our IBD cats condition to be worse.

Meeko is very much like Dyl and our vet has the same thoughts,if all we have is a "return " once every 6/7 days (often longer now) then that might be the best we can hope for.
I tend to rely more on V+C rather than Rescue Remedy for the slave meds,but what ever gets us through is fine by me .
Fingers and paws crossed that this continues,hope all other IBD kitties and slaves are doing okay xx


----------



## Forester

buffie said:


> Hi Sylv so pleased to read such a positive report about Dyl  I too have been awol from the thread so may have missed a few posts.
> Wonderful that having his new run has had such a positive effect,I fully agree that stress can and often does cause a lot of our IBD cats condition to be worse.
> 
> Meeko is very much like Dyl and our vet has the same thoughts,if all we have is a "return " once every 6/7 days (often longer now) then that might be the best we can hope for.
> I tend to rely more on V+C rather than Rescue Remedy for the slave meds,but what ever gets us through is fine by me .
> Fingers and paws crossed that this continues,hope all other IBD kitties and slaves are doing okay xx


Thanks buffie.. I know that Dylan and I would not have got to this position without the fantastic support of you, @sarahecp, @nicolaa123, @bluecordelia , @Shoshannah and many others. TBH , its possible that Dylan may not even have been here at all. There was a time , not so long ago, when it seemed that his quality of life was only going in one direction.    I cannot thank you all enough.

I'm going to sign out of this thread for now . I believe that the more I can relax and consider Dylan to be a normal cat the more beneficial it will be for him.

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves xx


----------



## buffie

Forester said:


> I'm going to sign out of this thread for now . I believe that the more I can relax and consider Dylan to be a normal cat the more beneficial it will be for him.
> 
> love to all masters, mistresses and slaves xx


I think that is a wise decision,I've found that not having the IBD on my mind 24/7 has had a positive effect on both Meeko and I,we all know that if we need/want any advice/support we are all just a message away .xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Forester said:


> I've been absent for a while as the stress of Dylan's vomiting became more than I could bear. I'm not returning as such now but just wanted to report our progress in case it can help anyone else.
> 
> Since providing Dylan with an outside run his vomiting has reduced from approx. 5 - 6 times weekly to about once a week. We have a Feliway plugged in and I'm taking Rescue Remedy several times a day. It certainly looks as though the vomiting has been largely due to stress/anxiety. Vet No3 is working with me and we are starting to taper Dylan's prednisolone. I'm slightly nervous but trying hard not to be. Dylan is a changed cat. I would not have described him as unhappy before but he's now positively blooming. No3 is as happy as I am. We are in agreement that one " return" a week is not how things should be but we may just have to accept that as just the way that he is.
> 
> I'd like to tell anyone who has a chronically vomiting cat not to give up no matter how bad things seem. Only a month ago I was at rock bottom. One of the partners at my practice conveyed a message to me, via another vet, that they would not prescribe any new meds for Dylan unless I consented to him having full thickness biopsies, and neither would they contact Langfords for advice. The rationale was that without FTB's they couldn't be sure whether he has IBD or not. ( His ultrasound had been inconclusive ). I almost went elsewhere for a second opinion. Luckily the vet I've seen recently was happy to work with me and we've reached a point which I feared we would never achieve.
> 
> I have fingers , and everything else crossed that this progress is maintained but I'm pretty confident that we have finally found a solution for Dylan.
> 
> love to all IBD kitties and slaves


I hope Dylan continues to improve.
I believe Blue was/is a stress head..too bright and nosey for her own good. She was a pooper but after months of her being unwell and the torment that we all know the arrival of Iv, her high up runs, playroom (now demolished), raw food (now some commercial good food) and me letting my precious girl out in combination changed her life. I don't know which one did the most but she couldn't carry on being so miserable.

I feel Dylan will settle more...one return is good brill news...his tummy /bowel will still be settling. As student nurse I worked on a colorectal ward and the consultant I thought was brilliant told me the bowel knows if it has been poked n prodded. To me an upset gut for a prolonged period needs to settle. I m a great believer in trying to cure what upsetting the head ie psychological along with the bio bit. Blue can be loose on occasion but not the heart breaking dailys needing mops and buckets.

For all our other ib cats please don't lose heart. x Made up for Dylan x


----------



## sarahecp

Hi Sylv, I'm so pleased to read such a happy, positive and great post about Dyl's progress, fantastic news, for both of you and us IBD'er that know what a long long road it is to have a cat suffering, you've made me smile and happy  I'm keeping everything crossed that Dyl continues to improve.

I think the fact he now has his wonderful run, his own little domain, it has definatly helped him and you with your RR, I think all these little things help and also as @buffie says not thinking about IBD 24/7 does us the world of good and we're all a message away if and when we need each other xx

@buffie I'm pleased all is going well for Mr M  us keeping positive does really help them I think.

@bluecordelia I'm pleased all went well for Blue at her check up 

All is ok here, Ro is still doing well  Frankie is well in himself, the rabbit is no longer favoured so we're now onto the hare, I noticed dire rear about 2 weeks ago but nothing since but as you know it's difficult with Frank. I've updated our vet and she want me to next update her when his food has been fully changed over.

I hope other masters, mistresses and slave are all well

xxx


----------



## bluecordelia

Blues insurance renewal came in at £9 per month. I am going to stick where we are as any conditions wont be covered if I change her over. 

Blue n Iv are always around for anyone and we will pop in regularly if we can help and support.x


----------



## Forester

Thanks all for your good wishes. I know that we've all felt each others triumphs and disasters as if they were our own but I'm sure that I wouldn't have got to this point without you all. 

Just before I finished my last post my little tinker decided to remind me that he _can_ still " return" but I'm not downhearted. He'd just consumed a full meal and then run flat out around the bungalow several times, practising vertical takeoffs and dive bombing his cosmic catnip cane from 6 ft up. There were balls in his food dish and socks in the hallway. It would probably have been a miracle if he _hadn't_ returned. It was a joy to see him so full of life.

@sarahecp if there is any food that you would like to try for Frank please let me know. I have a huge stash under my bed ( the cupboards are all full of cat food) ranging from 8 boxes of RCSC pouches, through Kattovit, Miamor, Meowing heads, Thrive, Ropocat, to JWB. You, or any other IBDer would be welcome to try any , or all, of them. I am hoping that Dyl will eventually be able to eat much of it but we are happy to share.

love to all masters, mistresses and slaves. xx


----------



## bluecordelia

yes I have a stock of some and gave a lot to Iv,s recue . Ropocat and the happy kitty stuff was an expensive foray as it got left and donated. I think now she is settled we could try again most things but they are fussy and what you think they will eat/ like and the reality is very different.

Currently I have rafine senior duck and ham. Both cats like these pouches from zp
Fering is also popular and we have salmon n turkey or rabbt and turkey or lamb and rabbit. There isn't a flavour they haven't liked so far.
We also have Yarrah organic fish r beef. Iv likes these but Blue not as keen.
We have taste of the wild small tins also. Not popular with Bluey.
If any ib cats would like a try let us know.

I nearly burnt the house down yesterday as I was boiling some chicken thigh and forgot while talking to the builder. Burnt boiled chicken smells like bacon and takes an age to clear!

Hope everyone ok. Speak soon x


----------



## sarahecp

Thanks Sylv @Forester  I will let you know if there's anything in your stash Frank would like to try  xx

Tell Dyl we don't mind him running around like a loon but make sure his dinner has settled first 

I put in a VC order earlier and ordered some extra hare and reindeer, Frank is enjoying the hare more than the rabbit and Seb is liking both, hopefully things go to plan and I'll have all 3 eating VC food soon enough and I even remember to order the skippy treats @nicolaa123 mentioned.

I'm still not brave enough yet to try Ro with anything new yet, I really want to but you all know that feeling.

@bluecordelia thanks  I will let you know if they would like to try any, I have plenty of rabbit and kangaroo if Blue and Iv want to try some and will have some hare and reindeer too when it arrives, just let me know.

Oh dear! And I can imagine the smell! xx


----------



## bluecordelia

sarahecp said:


> Thanks Sylv @Forester  I will let you know if there's anything in your stash Frank would like to try  xx
> 
> Tell Dyl we don't mind him running around like a loon but make sure his dinner has settled first
> 
> I put in a VC order earlier and ordered some extra hare and reindeer, Frank is enjoying the hare more than the rabbit and Seb is liking both, hopefully things go to plan and I'll have all 3 eating VC food soon enough and I even remember to order the skippy treats @nicolaa123 mentioned.
> 
> I'm still not brave enough yet to try Ro with anything new yet, I really want to but you all know that feeling.
> 
> @bluecordelia thanks  I will let you know if they would like to try any, I have plenty of rabbit and kangaroo if Blue and Iv want to try some and will have some hare and reindeer too when it arrives, just let me know.
> 
> Oh dear! And I can imagine the smell! xx


No problem....they are fussy monkeys and at least feringa is available from zp so I get cashback but it will take years to re-coup all the rejected tins and pouches.


----------



## nicolaa123

Oooooooo Sarah..please let me know what the treats are like and how they go down...

As for food, you will have to try something else and I know that's hard and well riley still is only on one food...but I dream one day it will happen


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Oooooooo Sarah..please let me know what the treats are like and how they go down...
> 
> As for food, you will have to try something else and I know that's hard and well riley still is only on one food...but I dream one day it will happen


Hi Nicola  I will let you know when they arrive and when we've tried them.

I know I will have to try another food at some point, I was thinking of giving it until October time when he would have been off the meds for 6 months.

I hope one day it will happen for Riley 

xx


----------



## Torin.

How noticeable is the taste if I hide it in normal food?


----------



## OrientalSlave

Torin said:


> How noticeable is the taste if I hide it in normal food?


You should have no problems giving it directly into your cats mouth with the syringe that comes with it. Of course you do that after she has eaten


----------



## Torin.

I asked as I'd rather stick it in her food unless it's going to be super noticeable to cat tastebuds. I will probably try it in a small amount and see


----------



## Jesthar

Torin said:


> I asked as I'd rather stick it in her food unless it's going to be super noticeable to cat tastebuds. I will probably try it in a small amount and see


Charlie had the Metacam for her first abcess (pre-Lori) on her food, and it never made any difference to her eating - she seemed to rather like it, actually. Now she's on it long term for arthritis (smaller dose than for proper pain relief), and I give it her in her mouth at breakfast time with the syringe, as that way there's no risk of Lori taking it instead.


----------



## sarahecp

The skippy treats have arrived   and they've gone down really well with Seb and Ro  Frank is yet to try them.

Here's a pic, not a great photo as I had to be quick! and it's sideways  Once Ro got a taste of one he wanted more!  but he didn't get any!










They are about a cm in size, like a little oxo cube  hardish, not soft and smell quite nice  yes I was tempted to try one


----------



## nicolaa123

In the interest of ibd cats everywhere, I think you should try one
How many has ro had? I will be interested how the other end deals with them......fingers crossed wouldn't it be lovely to have a treat we can give our boys!! Then who knows you could try raw kangaroo......??



sarahecp said:


> The skippy treats have arrived   and they've gone down really well with Seb and Ro  Frank is yet to try them.
> 
> Here's a pic, not a great photo as I had to be quick! and it's sideways  Once Ro got a taste of one he wanted more!  but he didn't get any!
> 
> View attachment 242629
> 
> 
> They are about a cm in size, like a little oxo cube  hardish, not soft and smell quite nice  yes I was tempted to try one


m


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> In the interest of ibd cats everywhere, I think you should try one
> How many has ro had? I will be interested how the other end deals with them......fingers crossed wouldn't it be lovely to have a treat we can give our boys!! Then who knows you could try raw kangaroo......??
> 
> m


I'll let you know what they're like when I've had one 

I only gave him one, he's had a poo this morning so hopefully be ok when he has his next one, fingers crossed.

If all goes well and no after effects, it will be so lovely that they can have treats  

Do you want me to send you some for Riley and you can try them too


----------



## sarahecp

Ro had a poo this morning and all was good  
I was brave and tried one, I did it for all IBD cats everywhere you understand 

They didn't taste like they smell, they were not nice at all, in fact they made me feel :Vomit and I'm lucky I didn't break a tooth


----------



## nicolaa123

Ah, i will get some on my


sarahecp said:


> Ro had a poo this morning and all was good
> I was brave and tried one, I did it for all IBD cats everywhere you understand
> 
> They didn't taste like they smell, they were not nice at all, in fact they made me feel :Vomit and I'm lucky I didn't break a tooth


You are soooo dedicated to the cause

Pleased to hear all good so far!


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Ah, i will get some on my
> 
> You are soooo dedicated to the cause
> 
> Pleased to hear all good so far!


Now I've tried one you've got to as well


----------



## nicolaa123

sarahecp said:


> Now I've tried one you've got to as well


Uhm yeah sure


----------



## nicolaa123

Ah forgot I'm allergic to kangaroo haahahahah


----------



## sarahecp

nicolaa123 said:


> Ah forgot I'm allergic to kangaroo haahahahah


Really?? :Smuggrin :Smuggrin :Smuggrin


----------



## nicolaa123

Yeah..... Shame that eh?? I would have so eaten that treat!!!!


----------



## bluecordelia

I had no problem with Iv having it in food..his face/mouth was sore so I didn't want to cause more by syringing..make sure you supervise eating in case any other cats try to eat any food with he meds on.


----------



## bluecordelia

I might try raw kanga as I think Lidl does it frozen...I recommend kangaroo and ostrich. My ex sells wholesale fish n poultry so I can get most things.

Bluey is out as its Creamfield's again this weekend....doesn't seem like 5 mins since we were talking about it last year. She seems to enjoy dance music!
Lets hope she doesn't bring me another present as this morning she had left a rat..whole on the step. I have avoided her face all day.....yack..she is a monster now x


----------



## Saratzah

Nooooooooo..... Stan brought a bird home....looked like it had been dead for a bit, so I don't think he can claim that one!! But hey presto a day later and I have one poorly looking puss!! 

This is the third time this has happened but he doesn't seem to have made the connection yet!!

Hi ho, hi ho it's off to the vets we go......


----------



## sarahecp

bluecordelia said:


> I might try raw kanga as I think Lidl does it frozen...I recommend kangaroo and ostrich. My ex sells wholesale fish n poultry so I can get most things.
> 
> Bluey is out as its Creamfield's again this weekend....doesn't seem like 5 mins since we were talking about it last year. She seems to enjoy dance music!
> Lets hope she doesn't bring me another present as this morning she had left a rat..whole on the step. I have avoided her face all day.....yack..she is a monster now x


I've seen kangaroo steaks advertised for Lidl but whenever I've popped in they've always been out of them, I'd like to try it, I'd imagine the steaks wound taste better than the treats 

I remember you talking about Creamfields before, is that really a year ago? I've noticed time goes a lot quicker as I get older lol. Can just picture Blue dancing away 

I know we're supposed to be grateful for these pressies but I'd prefer a nice box of choccies 

xx



Saratzah said:


> Nooooooooo..... Stan brought a bird home....looked like it had been dead for a bit, so I don't think he can claim that one!! But hey presto a day later and I have one poorly looking puss!!
> 
> This is the third time this has happened but he doesn't seem to have made the connection yet!!
> 
> Hi ho, hi ho it's off to the vets we go......


Oh no Sarah, poor Stan  I do hope he's ok. Hope all goes well at the vets.

Sending lots of positive and get better vibes his way. Let us know hope he gets on.

xx


----------



## bluecordelia

Blue has brought birds..whole and a wing off a biggy. I know she kills and eats as we got bits of a rabbit earlier in the week. I regularly find bits of mice around. For a cat who didn't go out and a townie to boot she as taken to hunting. I worm her more than Ivan as I feel she could be picking up some off prey. I haven't noticed it making her unwell.in fact the opposite.

Yes a whole year has flown...glad most of ours are settled x


----------



## Torin.

Just to update, meloxicam in food is going absolutely fine  She has it in with her breakfast.

(I only have the one cat)


----------



## Saratzah

Hi everyone

Quick update on Stan. 
8 days on antibiotics and he's better than he's been in a while. Eating well, playing,waking me up at 4am cos he's bored!!
Anyway he's been given a course of 6 weeks on abs due to the frequency of his flare ups and famotidine tablets.

Bloods taken showed low protein levels...that will be checked in 3months

Also discussed course of steroids as possible treatment in future.

So for the time being I have my naughty, sweet bundle of fluff back!


----------



## huckybuck

I was wondering about euthanasia and whether it is more difficult for a cat that is not necessarily unwell. Do they fight against it? 

Is it any more painful? 

Also, for many humans who suffer a heart attack they can experience excruciating pain. As I understand euthanasia, we are stopping an animals heart (heart attack?). All 3 cats I have had to have euthanised looked as if they were experiencing pain at the end, one excruciating. Can you ask for pain relief to help prevent this?


----------



## Soozi

I think it might be more distressing preparing them for euthanasia than the actual procedure itself. I think they normally give them an injection first that seems to make them non responsive they then check there is no response from their eyes and only then give the injection into the heart. I do believe there is more than one way of euthanasing though. Whatever way it is we all know how heartbreaking it is to witness. @Shoshannah might be able to tell us more about it. The thought of it makes me shiver.


----------



## huckybuck

I've had it done both ways..with and without sedation. Without was horrific and with just slightly better. But I was really wondering about pain killers and the pain they actually feel with the last injection. I think the sedation is to make them more cooperative (for our benefit) which is how I've read it rather than in any less pain?

And do cats that are not unwell feel it any more?


----------



## Soozi

huckybuck said:


> I've had it done both ways..with and without sedation. Without was horrific and with just slightly better. But I was really wondering about pain killers and the pain they actually feel with the last injection. I think the sedation is to make them more cooperative (for our benefit) which is how I've read it rather than in any less pain?
> 
> And do cats that are not unwell feel it any more?


My last two cats that had to be pts were both done with the sedation first but the injection to the heart the Vet did not want us to see on both ocassions. I don't know if they can tell whether it's pain or just reflexes. I hope it's not painful too! that is a horrible thought.


----------



## sarahecp

I've only been present on two occasions when past pets have been pts and both were very poorly, neither had sedation.

When I was 17 we had our family dog Prince pts, he was an old boy bless him, sadly his time had come. 

The vet injected into his front leg, but the vet had difficulty getting the needle in, he wasn't distressed or upset, the vet had to cut his veins and try again, I assume this could have been because his veins had collapsed, I don't really know, Prince slipped peacefully away.

Tim was injected into his heart, even though he was very weak he put up a good fight and had to have a second injection, I don't know if the injection had been placed incorrectly or it wasn't enough, but the vets words were, we'll need some more, he's a big boy! Before Tim slipped away he lifted his head and gave out a huge hiss at the vet, laid his head back down and he was gone.

Both times I remember like it were yesterday, both times for me were very distressing and very upsetting. I like to say they don't feel any pain but I cannot answer that question, it's something that has always been in my mind.


----------



## Soozi

sarahecp said:


> I've only been present on two occasions when past pets have been pts and both were very poorly, neither had sedation.
> 
> When I was 17 we had our family dog Prince pts, he was an old boy bless him, sadly his time had come.
> 
> The vet injected into his front leg, but the vet had difficulty getting the needle in, he wasn't distressed or upset, the vet had to cut his veins and try again, I assume this could have been because his veins had collapsed, I don't really know, Prince slipped peacefully away.
> 
> Tim was injected into his heart, even though he was very weak he put up a good fight and had to have a second injection, I don't know if the injection had been placed incorrectly or it wasn't enough, but the vets words were, we'll need some more, he's a big boy! Before Tim slipped away he lifted his head and gave out a huge hiss at the vet, laid his head back down and he was gone.
> 
> Both times I remember like it were yesterday, both times for me were very distressing and very upsetting. I like to say they don't feel any pain but I cannot answer that question, it's something that has always been in my mind.


Hun! it is the worst thing in the world and the memories haunt me still, unfortunately what can we do? We could never leave our pets to die on their own we have to be with them until the last seconds! I know you will feel the same.  xxx


----------



## sarahecp

Soozi said:


> Hun! it is the worst thing in the world and the memories haunt me still, unfortunately what can we do? We could never leave our pets to die on their own we have to be with them until the last seconds! I know you will feel the same.  xxx


absolutely hun, I do feel the same and no way I would or could ever let them be alone, no matter how much it hurts  xxx


----------



## chillminx

I am ashamed to admit I am a terrible coward and have never been able to face being present in the room when any of my beloved cats were pts. In addition I had the genuine fear that once faced with the reality I'd irrationally intervene to 'save' my cat at the last minute. Luckily for me my OH has always been willing to stay with the cats, though he has found it upsetting. I have been deeply grateful to him for this over the years. But of course if I had not had him to take on that responsibility then I would have somehow had to force myself to be there, as there is no way I would ever have left any of my cats to face their final journey alone.


----------



## Soozi

chillminx said:


> I am ashamed to admit I am a terrible coward and have never been able to face being present in the room when any of my beloved cats were pts. In addition I had the genuine fear that once faced with the reality I'd irrationally intervene to 'save' my cat at the last minute. Luckily for me my OH has always been willing to stay with the cats, though he has found it upsetting. I have been deeply grateful to him for this over the years. But of course if I had not had him to take on that responsibility then I would have somehow had to force myself to be there, as there is no way I would ever have left any of my cats to face their final journey alone.


I do understand Hun my neighbour actually passed clean out with the stress at the Vets when her cat was pts if it's something you can't do yourself you made sure that you had someone who was also close enough to be able to bear it. Don't feel bad you're not alone. For me I just had to feel that my last cat knew I was holding her and soothing her in those last minutes! but the pain of it has stayed with me since. XXX


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I personally don't think that 'healthier' cats fight against the procedure more than ill ones per se; it's more down to the personality of the cat. Some cats are more liable to struggle for injections than others, and while very sick cats are of course less likely to fight it, I've still known plenty of feisty ones who are feisty to the end! Which is why I tend to sedate 95% of cats first, including my own when his time came.

I think there is very little chance of chest pain with barbiturate euthanasia. The reason heart attacks hurt is because of the 'myocardial infarction' - a piece of heart muscle has had its blood supply cut off and is not receiving oxygen. This is not how the euthanasia solution works; it is an anaesthetic which stops nerve transmission in the brain and shuts it down. The heart stops because the brain isn't telling it to beat anymore. There is no direct effect on the heart from the injection.

Euthanasia with pentobarbitone is no more painful than an anaesthetic. The only discomfort I can predict is from the needle entering the skin and a burning sensation in the tissue if some of the solution is injected outside the vein (another reason I prefer to sedate, as even if some leaks it will not be felt). Some cats can feel strange as they fall unconscious (same as with anaesthesia) because they may feel a little dizzy or woozy, and a small number will react because of this.


----------



## Matrod

i don't think it's anything to be ashamed of not being present, I honestly don't know how I will cope when the time comes with my two. I always had pets growing up but these are my first cats of my own. I'm forcing to myself to really think about it lately as Matilda is not good at the moment, she has another kidney infection & this has hit her much harder than before . Hopefully we'll get over this hurdle & she'll be back to her jolly self like she was just over a week ago.


----------



## The Wild Bunch

@huckybuck I can tell you about the last two experiences of euthanasia I've had (both with dogs) my most recent, on 11th September with Barney
He had MVD and had very much had enough. The vet shaved his legs in order to insert a canular, his blood pressure was very low so everytime they found a vein, it collapsed meaning that they had to try both legs before they eventually found a stable enough vein to get the canular in. They then brought him back into the room and I had a cuddle with him. The vet inserted the syringe into the canular and he just put his head on the table and drifted off, it only took around a third of the syringe and by the time the full syringe was in, his heart had already stopped. It was very peaceful.

The other experience was with one of our family dogs- a big, strong, daft boxer who had a brain tumour. His chemo had stopped working and it was agreed that pts was the best option. They put one syringe in his canular and he fought it with all the energy he had left in him and jumped off the table! In the end it took two and a half syringes and a fair old length of time for his heart to stop. It was upsetting and stressful for me and the vet and ultimately the dog and something that thankfully, the vet had never seen before and I hope hasn't again. I've never had to do the cats yet, that's always been my mum's domain.

I always think deciding to pts is a true sign of being an adult and having to make the right decision for an animal that is entirely dependant on you.


----------



## huckybuck

Shoshannah said:


> I think there is very little chance of chest pain with barbiturate euthanasia. The reason heart attacks hurt is because of the 'myocardial infarction' - a piece of heart muscle has had its blood supply cut off and is not receiving oxygen. This is not how the euthanasia solution works; it is an anaesthetic which stops nerve transmission in the brain and shuts it down. The heart stops because the brain isn't telling it to beat anymore. There is no direct effect on the heart from the injection.
> 
> Euthanasia with pentobarbitone is no more painful than an anaesthetic. The only discomfort I can predict is from the needle entering the skin and a burning sensation in the tissue if some of the solution is injected outside the vein (another reason I prefer to sedate, as even if some leaks it will not be felt). Some cats can feel strange as they fall unconscious (same as with anaesthesia) because they may feel a little dizzy or woozy, and a small number will react because of this.


This is really interesting @shosh thank you.

I wasn't entirely sure how the last injection worked so it's comforting to know that it is the nerve transmission in the brain that causes it rather than a heart attack.

In terms of experience the worst I had was with my most gentle and placid cat. BUT she wasn't sedated and I wasn't given the option nor knew enough to ask at the time.

I'm so glad I know so much more about the procedure now though.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

huckybuck said:


> This is really interesting @shosh thank you.
> 
> I wasn't entirely sure how the last injection worked so it's comforting to know that it is the nerve transmission in the brain that causes it rather than a heart attack.
> 
> In terms of experience the worst I had was with my most gentle and placid cat. BUT she wasn't sedated and I wasn't given the option nor knew enough to ask at the time.
> 
> I'm so glad I know so much more about the procedure now though.


Didn't 'like' your post because of the story of your girl, but because I'm pleased you feel a little more empowered to face these situations in the future Clare :Kiss xxxx

I'm a sedation fan personally; the sedatives I tend to use (medetomidine, butorphenol and ketamine) also have pain killing effects and can lower the dose of euthanasia solution needed.

The main downside for me is that the sedative injection can sting and some cats object, but I tend to think the cats who find a quick sedative injection uncomfortable would also find being restrained and given an IV injection uncomfortable too. I see it as the lesser of two evils, and it also means the cat can fall asleep with their owner rather than being restrained by a stranger (many cats need to be held by a nurse if being given an IV injection off the needle).

BUT I would say sedation is not for everyone, and it depends what the cat, owner and vet are comfortable with. I would always encourage anyone facing this horrible decision to ask about sedation if they would prefer to have their cat sedated first.

At the end of the day I guess it's an event/procedure that is never going to be easy or pleasant, because of its very nature, and it's truly upsetting that not all are smooth and peaceful. I can understand why distressing euthanasias can make us wary about ever choosing it again, and I wish I could it make it better for all those cats who have passed in more stressful or upsetting circumstances than we hope for. But I guess we have to remember that the alternative is almost always worse.

I have seen plenty of very unpleasant and distressing natural deaths as well.

I think it would just be easier if we could make cats live forever! Xxxx


----------



## SusieRainbow

My old boy as PTS 6 years ago following a road accident , he was horribly injured and yowled all the way to the vets.He was taken straight into theatre for assessment of his injuries , then the lovely lady vet called me in and gently told me he was just too badly hurt. 
She described his injuries and it was a joint decision. she gave him some oxygen mixed with gas while she prepared his injection , he as unresponsive and didn't react as she injected him. I stroked him under the chin as he slipped away , it was peaceful, dignified and so respectful. They were very kind to me ,I was in shock , a blubbering wreck , but they gave me time to get myself together and the nurse put her arms round me.
Although it was one of the saddest days of my life and I still feel tearful writing about it, I'm so pleased i was there with him , stroking him as he loved and the last thing he heard was my voice. 
He showed no distress during the euthanisation process , just slipped away.


----------



## JaimeandBree

I have never had to watch a pet be euthanised before, J&B are my first pets as an adult and the two bunnies we had as kids were pts when I was at Uni.

Obviously it is not a topic that I particularly relish thinking about but it is unavoidable if you are going to be part of a community like this as it is something that comes up in many different circumstances almost every day here. I find it very comforting to know that there are people like @Shoshannah here who can offer insight and guidance should it ever be a decision I am faced with (hopefully not for a very very long time).

Your question is a really interesting one @huckybuck and not something I had ever considered before. It is awful that you have had not so great experiences with euthanasia in the past when trying to do the right things for your babies. But at least you have this place now to ask away and arm yourself with information should you ever have to face it again in the future.

Thanks Shosh for being so full of useful information and advice as always xx


----------



## huckybuck

Shoshannah said:


> I'm a sedation fan personally; the sedatives I tend to use (medetomidine, butorphenol and ketamine) also have pain killing effects and can lower the dose of euthanasia solution needed.
> 
> The main downside for me is that the sedative injection can sting and some cats object, but I tend to think the cats who find a quick sedative injection uncomfortable would also find being restrained and given an IV injection uncomfortable too. I see it as the lesser of two evils, and it also means the cat can fall asleep with their owner rather than being restrained by a stranger (many cats need to be held by a nurse if being given an IV injection off the needle).
> 
> I can understand why distressing euthanasias can make us wary about ever choosing it again


I'm a sedation fan too, now that I know about it. My last cat was sedated before being euthanised and yes the injection stung him a little, it did take a lot longer and he was uncomfortable until he collapsed, but I was much "happier" with the way it was in the end for him. He didn't respond with the final injection.

The most distressing euthanasia was my first and I have since chosen to euthanise subsequent times as my cats were clearly in pain, suffering and distressed. I am still very wary about it and will probably continue to be (though would always choose it if my cat was in pain, suffering and distressed) but feel much better advised on the kindest, gentlest way to do it thanks to you and the forum.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

daisysmama said:


> @huckybuck I can tell you about the last two experiences of euthanasia I've had (both with dogs) my most recent, on 11th September with Barney
> He had MVD and had very much had enough. The vet shaved his legs in order to insert a canular, his blood pressure was very low so everytime they found a vein, it collapsed meaning that they had to try both legs before they eventually found a stable enough vein to get the canular in. They then brought him back into the room and I had a cuddle with him. The vet inserted the syringe into the canular and he just put his head on the table and drifted off, it only took around a third of the syringe and by the time the full syringe was in, his heart had already stopped. It was very peaceful.
> 
> The other experience was with one of our family dogs- a big, strong, daft boxer who had a brain tumour. His chemo had stopped working and it was agreed that pts was the best option. They put one syringe in his canular and he fought it with all the energy he had left in him and jumped off the table! In the end it took two and a half syringes and a fair old length of time for his heart to stop. It was upsetting and stressful for me and the vet and ultimately the dog and something that thankfully, the vet had never seen before and I hope hasn't again. I've never had to do the cats yet, that's always been my mum's domain.
> 
> I always think deciding to pts is a true sign of being an adult and having to make the right decision for an animal that is entirely dependant on you.


I'm glad that little Barney passed so peacefully after his illness. He certainly deserved a peaceful ending. And the experience with your Boxer does sound awful, I'm sorry you had to go through it.  I've certainly never seen such a reaction with my own eyes before, but I have heard of them on (thankfully) rare occasions.

I think the decision to PTS is rarely easy, nor should it be. It absolutely is the opportunity to do the right thing for a little soul who depends on you to do so, but I'm not personally of the mind that finding it hard makes you any more or less worldly wise than someone who knows what they need to do without doubt.

We are all different and I think age influences our ability to make these decisions less than the nature of our relationship with that pet, our previous experiences of death (both human and animal) and our circumstances at the time.

I would never say it's right to keep an animal going purely for our benefit, as some people sadly do, but I think it's normal to find these choices harrowing and the fear of doing the wrong thing is very real in many cases.


----------



## charlieRabbit01

Is there anything I can do to help relieve an attack?

Denzel's symptoms:

He's 2 years old and has had occasional coughing fits during the cold winter months. I would say in the last two years he's had about 4/5 coughing fits during the previous two winters. 

He woke me in the early hours of this morning with his first coughing fit this winter it was quite a bad one and I wasn't sure if rubbing his chest would help, I did turf him out of bed though as he is was coughing whilst laying down.

We normally find these fits happen in the winter and often occur after extended and active play sessions, he will usually lie on his side and has rapid breathing. When he shows these signs we reduce the level of activity for play.

He's got his annual check up and injections on Monday so we'll mention it then, is there anything I can do to help him?


----------



## huckybuck

Little H has been diagnosed with mild allergic asthma and rhinitis from Davies referral vets.

Since his diagnosis I have done my best to reduce anything which I think may be triggering his symptoms (strange clicking nosies from his nose and throat and mucous noise from his throat..he has no wheezing, sneezing or coughing at all). 

We have bought air purifiers, use worlds best litter, removed all air fresheners and aerosols, had all the carpets and bedding thoroughly cleaned, reduced the use of chemicals in cleaning products and I vaccum everyday. His symptoms have shown no real sign of reducing but equally aren't getting any worse. 

I have been given a preventative inhaler to use on him which I have been trying to get him used to and thought he would be ok with but he absolutely detests it. I am having no success at all administering the dose as he is simply too strong for me to hold and do it. he was supposed to have an initial 2 week course of twice a day and then gradually reduce over a period of time to 1 or 2 doses every week. 

I wondered if there was any other medication he could take in tablet from preferably that we could try instead of the inhaler?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Steroid tablets are a possibility and are effective, but they do bring with them side effects (especially when used long term) and it's always best to avoid them if we can. Inhaled steroids carry far fewer adverse effects since their administration is localised to the airways.

Anti-histamines have been looked at as an alternative, but there is no good evidence to support their use yet and they cannot be currently recommended as a sole means of therapy.

There was some work published in 2010 looking at green-lipped mussel to help reduce the inflammation in asthma. It seemed to reduce the overreactivity of the feline airways, and the cats' symptoms reduced, but it didn't seem to reduce the amount of inflammatory cells knocking about, so can only be recommended as an add-on treatment to something else (usually steroids).

It can be easy to achieve an improvement in symptoms while still failing to address the underlying inflammation, which means the condition can continue to perpetuate behind the scenes. This is why steroids are so good: they really do suppress the inflammation.

Ciclosporin (Atopica) has been shown to work well in an asthmatic cat with diabetes (one case report in 2014). Being diabetic, the cat could not receive steroids so the Atopica was very much a 'make-do' option. It resolved the cat's symptoms in that case, but in a couple of other studies it was found not to significantly reduce airway sensitivity. Summary: conflicting results. Atopica can also suppress the immune system and we recommend checking the cat's Toxo status before starting it.

Oral meds aside, some advocate allergy testing and immunotherapy for cats with allergic airway disease, same as for allergic skin diseases. Unlike other treatments, immunotherapy has the potential to cure (though unfortunately it won't for every cat). Treatment involves injections which start out frequent, but reduce in frequency if successful.


----------



## pollypage

Hi Shosh today my 5 month old kitten Rosie was spayed and was given a stat dose of Metacam I.V and she has been prescribed 2.5 Metacam once a day for the next 3 days hopefully by then her wound will have settled enough so as not to nessesitate her having any more.
Thank you for the information it was very interesting


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## pollypage

havoc said:


> I'm pretty sure that counts as an OD.


Not if it were 24 hours apart,it should be ok


----------



## Flaneuse

Useful info from Shosh, thanks.

Mindy, 15, started on Metacam 4 weeks ago for her arthritis and it made a huge difference to her mobility and activity levels. However, after 2-3 weeks she started vomiting several hours after eating (if it happened it tended to be at the same times each day), and it got to the point where she was doing it every day. Her blood results last week were normal. Vet prescribed ranitidine for the vomiting, started 3 days ago. She was OK with the metacam by syringe but I used capsules for the ranitidine. She stopped vomiting but then stopped eating. No mention of inappetence as a side effect of ranitidine, but there is for Metacam. I think I need to stop both to see what happens, as we plan to go on holiday for a few days so she would have to have the Metacam on her food anyway.

At this point I think the important thing is that she eats. Then per

Any similar experiences with either drug or the combination?


----------



## andrewjacson

Thank you Shosh. Such a difficult subject. I still have a problem with euthanasia even though have had 3 cats euthanaised so far.


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## moggie14

Hi all 
My best friends cat Monty (aged 9) has just been diagnosed with asthma. In the spring he started coughing and was originally treated for parasites which made no difference. He then had his lungs flushed out (?) and whilst under had his throat, airways etc all checked and nothing.
He continued to worsen so a few weeks ago had a short acting steroid injection which again had no affect. About 2 weeks ago he then had a stronger steroid injection which was supposed to last for about 6 weeks and again, this had no affect.
Just wondered if anyone had experienced a cat that did not respond to steroids?
Thanks in advance x


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

moggie14 said:


> Hi all
> My best friends cat Monty (aged 9) has just been diagnosed with asthma. In the spring he started coughing and was originally treated for parasites which made no difference. He then had his lungs flushed out (?) and whilst under had his throat, airways etc all checked and nothing.
> He continued to worsen so a few weeks ago had a short acting steroid injection which again had no affect. About 2 weeks ago he then had a stronger steroid injection which was supposed to last for about 6 weeks and again, this had no affect.
> Just wondered if anyone had experienced a cat that did not respond to steroids?
> Thanks in advance x


Yes, sometimes. Oral prednisolone is superior to the injectable steroids so it might be worth speaking to her vet about that?


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## moggie14

Thanks so much for your reply Shosh. Would there need to be a wait before tablets, I'm not completely sure exactly when the last injection was given? x


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## Ceiling Kitty

Possibly, it does depend on when the injection was given as you don't want to overdose. It's also worth ruling out secondary infections as these can cause refractory asthma until antibiotics are given.


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## moggie14

He has never had antibiotics for this because the vet said there was no infection, I was quite surprised by this. Thanks again, I'll pass on the info xx


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## huckybuck

I spoke to our vet yesterday as I am having absolutely no success at all with the inhaler. 
I simply cannot manage a struggling 7 kg cat and give the inhaler at the same time so I haven't been able to give him the course as prescribed. 

So we have decided to try a 6 week course of steroid tablets to at least determine if they have any effect upon his symptoms or indeed if they clear up completely.

He is having 1 tablet twice a day (in a pill pocket which he takes like a dream ) for 1 week. We will then reduce to 1 a day for the next 2 weeks, 1/2 a day for the next 2 weeks and then 1/2 every other day.

At the end of the course I will monitor him to see if and when his symptoms re occur then decide what the next step is.

I have had a thought about popping him in one of those big laundrette bags, zipping it up and administering the inhaler that way. He does love to get inside and play in bags lol!!


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## moggie14

Hi @huckybuck What are the tablets called, I'm hoping my friends cat has more success on tablets instead of injections xx


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## Ceiling Kitty

Obviously I don't know but I would expect they are prednisolone.


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## huckybuck

moggie14 said:


> Hi @huckybuck What are the tablets called, I'm hoping my friends cat has more success on tablets instead of injections xx


They are prednisolone @moggie14.
He's been as good as gold taking them in a pill pocket. 
I started on Wednesday night so I'm hoping I'll see a difference soon.


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## huckybuck

Just wanted to add that the air purifiers really do do their job.

O/H loves Christmas fragranced candles and really these should be a no go with Asthma. 
We have compromised and bought another air purifier for his TV room (with a smoke filter even though no one smokes) so that he can light his candles for 20 mins a day. 
Usually the smell is quite strong and lasts for ages (days) but after blowing them out last night within 1/2 hour the smell was diminishing - it was stronger in the hall rather than the TV room lol and by this morning has completely gone.

We have really noticed the benefits of having them ourselves so hoping Little H will be too.

http://www.breathingspace.co.uk/air-purifiers-c1?gclid=CLzShKar2MgCFUQ6GwodtzADkg


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## Clairea04

I have a 16 year old female cat with arthritis for around 9 months now she has been on loxicom she was 6 kg before going on this med, it gave her a new lease on life and from being a relative indoor cat before going on this med she is now out and about enjoying herself and she has lost a lot of weight partly I think to her being more active but now she isn't eating very much at all last two days I have given her cooked chicken which she devoured but not even that will tempt her today. 
She has a vets appointment this afternoon. 
but I think she may have a loxicom issue. She has got to slim she is all skin and bones now. 
She is usually my husbands cat doesn't come to me that often lately she has been coming to me hence I've now noticed how much weight she has actually lost and what she is eating or not in this case. 
We lost her sister 2 years ago to a fast growing tummy cancer at age 14 half of me is wondering if she has the same other half think it's the medication 
Hoping if we stop medication and change it to something else she will eat again and be healthy. 
She doesn't seem to be in pain. 
Just really worrying me.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Sorry to hear about your kitty.

At 16 years of age, there is a list of things that could be causing her to lose weight - CKD, hyperthyroidism, diabetes, bowel disease. This applies to any cat of her age. I hope the vet can do some tests and get to the bottom of it for her, but try not to worry about anything specific until you know what you are or aren't dealing with.


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## Clairea04

Thanks I have 4 other cats, I'm disabled and I'm not on the ball as I used to be, so it's only in recent weeks I've noticed how much she has deteriorated she seems happy in herself.
it's just eating has become an issue she seems to want to eat but nothing appeals to her and is gettin to be more of a problem in past week, hoping vets will do some tests now they have been checking on her every 3 months but I think it's now time for tests our new vets that we use seem to be more on the ball than our old vets and a lot cheaper as well. Not the cost is that much of an issue when it comes to my fur babies. They are all insured.

We had another kitty on loxicom following a blocked bladder vet told us to give him twice the usual doze for a cat his size but I was wary about that and just gave him 6 ml for 6 kg cat but was only for 10 days he is off that now,


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## moggie14

Thanks for the replies hun, I'm very grateful because my friends cat is not one that would tolerate an inhaler


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## moggie14

Is Loxicom the same as Metacam? If so presumably the vet did a blood test 9 months ago prior to prescribing it. If so your cat really needs a new blood test for her kidneys. As said at her age there are several possibilities but big weight loss and loss of appetite really needs investigating as soon as possible in an elderly cat. Time is of the essence so please get her to a vet before she gets any worse. Hope all will be OK - please keep us posted.


----------



## Flaneuse

Flaneuse said:


> Useful info from Shosh, thanks.
> 
> Mindy, 15, started on Metacam 4 weeks ago for her arthritis and it made a huge difference to her mobility and activity levels. However, after 2-3 weeks she started vomiting several hours after eating (if it happened it tended to be at the same times each day), and it got to the point where she was doing it every day. Her blood results last week were normal. Vet prescribed ranitidine for the vomiting, started 3 days ago. She was OK with the metacam by syringe but I used capsules for the ranitidine. She stopped vomiting but then stopped eating. No mention of inappetence as a side effect of ranitidine, but there is for Metacam. I think I need to stop both to see what happens, as we plan to go on holiday for a few days so she would have to have the Metacam on her food anyway.
> 
> At this point I think the important thing is that she eats. Then per
> 
> Any similar experiences with either drug or the combination?


Follow-up. Ranitidine was awful to dose: Mindy foaming at the mouth even with it put in empty capsules - why don't they make it in a form more palatable than mint-flavoured? We changed her to famotidine tablets and things are fine (fingers crossed): she is eating OK and not vomiting.


----------



## Clairea04

Yes it is the same drug, but no she never had a blood test done before or even now, vet think she has gastric problems due to drug so has stopped it gave her injection for gastroenteritis and given her some paste to have 3 times a day. Is she is no better in a week then they will do full check up including full blood work,
But even hour after injection she is eating normally again , so now just have to heal her poor tummy and hope that is all it is and easily fixed And then find something else for Her arthritis


----------



## QOTN

Flaneuse said:


> Follow-up. Ranitidine was awful to dose: Mindy foaming at the mouth even with it put in empty capsules - why don't they make it in a form more palatable than mint-flavoured? We changed her to famotidine tablets and things are fine (fingers crossed): she is eating OK and not vomiting.


I have ranitidine in the form of tiny tablets made by Summit Veterinary. The cat hardly knows he has had it.


----------



## moggie14

Clairea04 said:


> Yes it is the same drug, but no she never had a blood test done before or even now, vet think she has gastric problems due to drug so has stopped it gave her injection for gastroenteritis and given her some paste to have 3 times a day. Is she is no better in a week then they will do full check up including full blood work,
> But even hour after injection she is eating normally again , so now just have to heal her poor tummy and hope that is all it is and easily fixed And then find something else for Her arthritis


I'm amazed your vet hasn't done a blood test at her age. What reason did he give for diagnosing gastroenteritis? Has she been sick or had a runny bum?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Flaneuse said:


> Follow-up. Ranitidine was awful to dose: Mindy foaming at the mouth even with it put in empty capsules - why don't they make it in a form more palatable than mint-flavoured? We changed her to famotidine tablets and things are fine (fingers crossed): she is eating OK and not vomiting.


The liquid is a human medication and thus mint-flavoured for our benefit, not for cats! Most cats hate the taste and froth at the mouth - it's not nice but it is a 'normal' reaction for cats taking this medication. Glad the famotidine is better; this is what I normally use. As @QOTN has said, Summit also compound ranitidine into small tablets if needed.


----------



## Clairea04

moggie14 said:


> I'm amazed your vet hasn't done a blood test at her age. What reason did he give for diagnosing gastroenteritis? Has she been sick or had a runny bum?


She has been sick twice in two days, she is going to do blood tests at end of the week


----------



## moggie14

I hope you get some good news xx


----------



## huckybuck

@moggie14

Well Little H has been taking the tablets since Wednesday.

If I am being totally honest I can't see any difference in him at all 

Having said his symptoms were very mild to start with (just the wet clicking noises) and we think his symptoms have decreased further with all the changes in the house..in particular the air purifiers. But also getting the carpets cleaned, mattress' vacuumed, then vacuuming on a daily basis, changing cleaning products etc. The one thing I haven't yet done (forgot completely) is swop from lavender scented worlds best back to plain but I will do once I run out.

I will continue his course though and then see how he gets on afterwards. Still taking the pills like a dream.


----------



## moggie14

Thanks for the update. My friends cat has quite serious symptoms (coughing fits daily). How long is Little H's course of pills?
I'm wondering if kittens grow out of it like some children do?!


----------



## huckybuck

@moggie14

His is a 6 week course but he had very mild symptoms. The vet did say he was 99% certain it was allergy related and that he probably wouldn't grow out of it (although I beg to differ) as it would be hard to find what he was allergic too BUT I really feel all the changes we have made, have made a huge difference already. The tablets are one of the last changes in the whole scheme of things.

I would definitely try them.


----------



## OrientalSlave

A substantial minority of children do indeed grow out of asthma, literally as their airways get larger. Of that minority, quite a few get asthma again as they get older. That happened to a chap I went out with - in his early 60s he developed asthma symptoms and finally went to his doctor. In part I think he remembered that when he was a child there was no effective treatment. Problems with oral steroids were noted pretty quickly after their introduction in the late 50s & 60s, and steroid inhalers came along in the early 1970s when he would have grown out of it. It didn't occur to him that I have asthma but rarely have any symptoms so something must have changed in the intervening years... I found an interesting page about the history of treating asthma in humans:
http://hardluckasthma.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/history-of-antiinflammatories-for-use.html

I think the later parts of the article from 'Knowing my asthma was high risk' are very interesting, and sadly too many asthmatics still don't take their brown inhaler if they feel OK.


----------



## Flufflemunch

Hi everyone, just wondering if you can summarise what IBD is for cats? I'm having problems with my kitty having on and off diarrhoea. He has hat bouts since he was a kitten and had giardia. The bouts are often accompanied by a fever and lethargy which can be incredibly scary!! He has been on sensitive food his whole life. Just had his poo sent off for tests as so concerned about how lethargic and painful he seems with it today.


----------



## moggie14

Hi all 
I saw my friend today. Monty continues to have frequent 'attacks', however he is fine in between them but they are getting more often and she is worried that he is in pain.
He has been back to the vet and because he is not responding at all to steroids he has now been prescribed Bisolvon. Just wondered if anyone has used this with success?
I've googled it but doesn't help. My friends sister in law is a vet who suggested it might not be asthma because of the non reaction to steroids. My friend is at a loss.
Any ideas? 
TIA XX


----------



## Erostill

I'm am trying everything to sort out my cats FIC nothing is working however I have found little scabs on his head and kneck and done some research which said allergies either fleas or food. It can't be fleas S he has had his spot ons. So I'm going to try the food. But could this be the answer could allergies cause FIC?


----------



## Erostill

moggie14 said:


> Your cat is neutered I presume? And what measures have you taken to help with his stress?
> Poor guy shouldn't have cystitis for months bless him.


Yes he's neutered. Everything I'm trying new stuff everyday I have 4 cats so there's now 5 litter trays all different types hooded ones normal ones, seive ones. I have changes the litter. They all have their own bowls. A water fountine and other water bowls round the house. I have feliway plugs. He's got a calming collor on. He's on amatriptilyn. The wees are sometimes the size of a pea with blood sometimes no blood but still small sometimes normal wees and others big wees still with blood. Sometimes he struggles sometimes he doesn't. He's loosing fur, over grooming and I have now found little scabs on his head and kneck. I've looked it up on the Internet and it said food allergies. Could that be stressing him out?


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## moggie14

I'm not sure if stress would be the result of a food allergy. However I guess they could be linked.
He does sound very stressed, spraying and fur pulling bless him. Does he get along with the other cats?


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## Erostill

He will eat with them. Lie on the same bed but when he's not well he hisses and paws them but he also does that to us when he's not well


----------



## andrewjacson

Its been going on constantly for a few months now struggling to wee, blood in his wee. We've tried everything water fountains, vet prescribed food, medication, capsiuals nothing seems to be working


----------



## Erostill

andrewjacson said:


> Its been going on constantly for a few months now struggling to wee, blood in his wee. We've tried everything water fountains, vet prescribed food, medication, capsiuals nothing seems to be working


It's a nightmare isn't it. I've tried everything. I'm out of ideas now


----------



## chillminx

andrewjacson said:


> Its been going on constantly for a few months now struggling to wee, blood in his wee. We've tried everything water fountains, vet prescribed food, medication, capsiuals nothing seems to be working


Are you feeding wet food only, no dry at all?

If you have other cats, ensure you are providing a multiplicity of resources to reduce competition. Give the problem cat a separate feeding station in a different room, or at a different height in the same room as the others.

Give your cat a calming treatment, Beaphar Calming Spot on (given once a week) is very effective for many cats. Buy from amazon.


----------



## Erostill

chillminx said:


> Are you feeding wet food only, no dry at all?
> 
> If you have other cats, ensure you are providing a multiplicity of resources to reduce competition. Give the problem cat a separate feeding station in a different room, or at a different height in the same room as the others.
> 
> Give your cat a calming treatment, Beaphar Calming Spot on (given once a week) is very effective for many cats. Buy from amazon.


Dry food he won't eat wet at all and the vet said not to starve him into so I give him the water out of the Tuna and he likes gravy do he will have the juices out the stew or I make him a bowl of chicken with gravey.

It's been going on since February I have 4 cats 5 litter trays 4 seperate feeding bowls so they have one each. He come sin later than the other cats so he eats on his own but he will happily eat with them anyway. He has a beaphar calming collar on

I have honesty tried everything the vet has said, everything I've read and everything other people have said to try. Nothing is working. I don't think it's the cats that are the problem. He sprays a lot up the rabbit hutches so I think it maybe could be the rabbits


----------



## moggie14

Is it a dried diet specifically for urinary problems?
I really wouldn't recommend giving him juices out of a stew, it's likely you have added garlic or onion both of which are toxic to cats.
Also human gravy is loaded with salt so not appropriate either.
How about a little goats milk?


----------



## Erostill

Sorry that reply wasn't for me was it. Getting mixed up. But if anyone has any other things I can try please let me no


----------



## Erostill

Yes that


moggie14 said:


> Is it a dried diet specifically for urinary problems?
> I really wouldn't recommend giving him juices out of a stew, it's likely you have added garlic or onion both of which are toxic to cats.
> Also human gravy is loaded with salt so not appropriate either.
> How about a little goats milk?


yes that c/d something good from the vets. We only have stew now and again I don't put oinion or garlic in we don't like it in our house. I've tried car milk he won't drink it unless it's out my cereal bowl with sugar in. The vet said its ok to give him gravey and pretty much anything liquid that he will drink for the time being to get fluids into him


----------



## Erostill

What about Ham? Is that ok for him he likes that that's got water in hasn't it


----------



## OrientalSlave

Ham has lots of salt so it's not good. Maybe another cat is spraying the rabbit hutches as well?


----------



## Erostill

OrientalSlave said:


> Ham has lots of salt so it's not good. Maybe another cat is spraying the rabbit hutches as well?


Tunas ok though isn't it? Chicken? Maybe but no cats really come in my garden cuz they chase them all off


----------



## moggie14

A little spring water from a can of tuna is OK occasionally. I disagree with your vet that gravy is suitable.
How about poaching some chicken then offering him the water it was cooked in. Again goats milk is OK.


----------



## Sacrechat

Erostill said:


> Has anyone else cat had stress related Cystitus? Its been going on constantly for a few months now struggling to wee, blood in his wee. We've tried everything water fountains, vet prescribed food, medication, capsiuals nothing seems to be working. Does any body have any solutions? He's also spraying everywhere.


One of my boys has stress cystitis and other than blood in his urine he is symptom free. I do give him cystaid plus and Zylkene, but I don't think it makes much difference.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Tuna in springwater, not brine or oil, and home-cooked chicken. I don't like the additives in pre-cooked chicken on the deli shelves.


----------



## Erostill

moggie14 said:


> A little spring water from a can of tuna is OK occasionally. I disagree with your vet that gravy is suitable.
> How about poaching some chicken then offering him the water it was cooked in. Again goats milk is OK.


Milks no good for them either And goats milk is full of bacteria, I've used goats milk straight from the goat to hand rear baby rabbits and the farmer told em to be really carful and make sure we wash our hands if we get it on us. or do you mean goats milk from the shop?


----------



## Erostill

Sacremist said:


> One of my boys has stress cystitis and other than blood in his urine he is symptom free. I do give him cystaid plus and Zylkene, but I don't think it makes much difference.


Yeah I've tried them they don't do anything. He's loosing fur and now has allergies and hides away.


----------



## moggie14

Erostill said:


> Milks no good for them either And goats milk is full of bacteria, I've used goats milk straight from the goat to hand rear baby rabbits and the farmer told em to be really carful and make sure we wash our hands if we get it on us. or do you mean goats milk from the shop?


Oh sorry I meant goats milk from the shop for humans x


----------



## OrientalSlave

Erostill said:


> Milks no good for them either And goats milk is full of bacteria, I've used goats milk straight from the goat to hand rear baby rabbits and the farmer told em to be really carful and make sure we wash our hands if we get it on us. or do you mean goats milk from the shop?


If the goat is well and proper hygiene has been observed then milk straight from the goat is quite safe to drink. However I wouldn't give it to cats or kittens - cats because they don't need milk at all, and kittens because the make-up is too far from cat milk.


----------



## chillminx

@Erostill - Tesco sells UHT Goats milk, semi skimmed or whole, no bacteria in that. My cats love it as a treat. .

If your cat has allergies, is losing fur and hiding away, what have you done so far to identify the allergies and manage them. e.g. have you put the cat on an elimination diet for 6 weeks using a novel protein? Are you referring to the same cat who has the stress-related cystitis? If so, he sounds like a very unhappy cat. 

It is highly unlikely to be anything to do with the rabbits that he is spraying their hutches. What is probable is that strange cats come into your garden and regularly spray the hutches as a way of leaving their scent to claim your garden as their territory. Your cat is spraying his urine over the top of theirs as a way of saying "this territory is taken".

Lots of neutered cats spray in their gardens if other cats come in. It is not a sign of stress in itself, but added to other factors that are upsetting him, it may be stressful. Are you able to fence in your garden so strange cats can't get in?

I have known of many cases of cats with idiopathic cystitis, where nothing has been 100% helpful until the cat was taken off dry food and fed a wet food diet only. Or raw food. What have you done to wean him off dry food, and onto wet food? It needs to be done very slowly, taking weeks over it. Of course it is better for him to eat something rather than nothing, but it shouldn't come to a crisis point if you do the changeover slowly.

It is very possible your cat is not comfortable sharing with other cats. He may find it stressful and be happier living as an only cat. Or it may be the case one of your other 3 cats is bullying this boy and making him anxious. It would be subtle and you would not necessarily notice it unless you were closely observing their interactions all day, as a feline behaviourist would do. .

You say the problem with his bladder has been going on since February, what changes happened in February - did you bring a new cat into the home then? Or did a new human move in? Or work being done on the house? Or perhaps a new cat moved into the neighbourhood and began bullying him.

Perhaps he eats next to the other cats because he has to as his bowl is there. Perhaps he comes in later deliberately so he won't have to eat with them. Adult cats are instinctively protective about their food and it could be stressful having to eat with another cat next to them. Kittens are different, because they are too young to be territorial. Adult cats should always have their own separate feeding stations.

5 trays for 4 cats, who also go outside, seems fine. Does your boy toilet outside mostly? Do you know if uses a tray at the night when he's shut indoors? It is not good for
him to hold on to his urine all night as it becomes very concentrated then. You want a dilute urine so that he is encouraged to pee more often and flush his bladder out. On a dry food diet that means he needs to drink about half a pint of fluids a day, which is a heck of a lot for a cat. Are you measuring how much fluid he is getting?

He may be happier if you can give him a room in your house to which only he has access. I mean he can share it with a human, but not another cat. You would achieve this by fitting a microchip catflap to the door of the room, and just scanning his chip in. In his room he would have his own litter tray, water bowl, bed and food. This can work well where there is one cat being bullied in a multicat household. He would have access to other parts of the house, but none of the other cats could get in his room.

It is really important to get the allergies sorted out though, as it is making him so miserable. And the stress could definitely be contributing to causing the cystitis.


----------



## huckybuck

@moggie14 has Monty been referred to a specialist to rule out everything else?


----------



## moggie14

No not yet hun. I posted this the other day, heard of it by any chance? xx
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/bisolvon-any-thoughts.415725/


----------



## huckybuck

I haven't sadly. I've just googled. It sounds as if the vet thinks something is causing the mucous which is what they said about Little H and allergies. 
Has he had a referral at all. With bronchial swabs etc to see if they can find any other cause for the coughing?

Have they tried all the obvious stuff around the house - keeping dust down, vacuuming mattresses and cleaning bedding, changing cleaning products? Trying air purifiers?

I really think that in Little H's case these have had as much effect if not more than the steroids.

ETA We're halfway through the steroids and down to half a tablet a day. 

With all the changes we've made to his environment and this course I think his symptoms have reduced by 2/3rds. The only signs he has now are a noisy snore and purr and the very occasional throaty click if I hold him upside down or on his back - which arguably could be his soft palate.


----------



## huckybuck

Just wondered about lungworm. Have they ruled it out?


----------



## moggie14

Thanks hun. No referral, I believe he had the lung wash thingy then meds. He had worming stuff at the start to rule that out.
Monty goes out however my friend has reduced any air fresheners etc indoors just in case.
I saw him a few days ago and he looks so well! But when you listen closely to his breathing you can hear that little 'catch'


----------



## huckybuck

moggie14 said:


> Thanks hun. No referral, I believe he had the lung wash thingy then meds. He had worming stuff at the start to rule that out.
> Monty goes out however my friend has reduced any air fresheners etc indoors just in case.
> I saw him a few days ago and he looks so well! But when you listen closely to his breathing you can hear that little 'catch'


I was reading that it can be quite persistent (sometimes more than one treatment) and you'd need fecal exams and X-rays etc. Did the lung wash thingy mean bronchial swabs so they tested for stuff? It might mean him being referred if they haven't done this. How old is he? It was bit scary when we took Little H because they did say his symptoms could be cancerous. Thankfully in his case it wasn't.


----------



## moggie14

Monty is about 8 years old. I'm not sure if they did swabs with the lung wash I will ask. Just seems so strange that he got symptoms suddenly. Thanks again x


----------



## Erostill

chillminx said:


> @Erostill - Tesco sells UHT Goats milk, semi skimmed or whole, no bacteria in that. My cats love it as a treat. .
> 
> If your cat has allergies, is losing fur and hiding away, what have you done so far to identify the allergies and manage them. e.g. have you put the cat on an elimination diet for 6 weeks using a novel protein? Are you referring to the same cat who has the stress-related cystitis? If so, he sounds like a very unhappy cat.
> 
> It is highly unlikely to be anything to do with the rabbits that he is spraying their hutches. What is probable is that strange cats come into your garden and regularly spray the hutches as a way of leaving their scent to claim your garden as their territory. Your cat is spraying his urine over the top of theirs as a way of saying "this territory is taken".
> 
> Lots of neutered cats spray in their gardens if other cats come in. It is not a sign of stress in itself, but added to other factors that are upsetting him, it may be stressful. Are you able to fence in your garden so strange cats can't get in?
> 
> I have known of many cases of cats with idiopathic cystitis, where nothing has been 100% helpful until the cat was taken off dry food and fed a wet food diet only. Or raw food. What have you done to wean him off dry food, and onto wet food? It needs to be done very slowly, taking weeks over it. Of course it is better for him to eat something rather than nothing, but it shouldn't come to a crisis point if you do the changeover slowly.
> 
> It is very possible your cat is not comfortable sharing with other cats. He may find it stressful and be happier living as an only cat. Or it may be the case one of your other 3 cats is bullying this boy and making him anxious. It would be subtle and you would not necessarily notice it unless you were closely observing their interactions all day, as a feline behaviourist would do. .
> 
> You say the problem with his bladder has been going on since February, what changes happened in February - did you bring a new cat into the home then? Or did a new human move in? Or work being done on the house? Or perhaps a new cat moved into the neighbourhood and began bullying him.
> 
> Perhaps he eats next to the other cats because he has to as his bowl is there. Perhaps he comes in later deliberately so he won't have to eat with them. Adult cats are instinctively protective about their food and it could be stressful having to eat with another cat next to them. Kittens are different, because they are too young to be territorial. Adult cats should always have their own separate feeding stations.
> 
> 5 trays for 4 cats, who also go outside, seems fine. Does your boy toilet outside mostly? Do you know if uses a tray at the night when he's shut indoors? It is not good for
> him to hold on to his urine all night as it becomes very concentrated then. You want a dilute urine so that he is encouraged to pee more often and flush his bladder out. On a dry food diet that means he needs to drink about half a pint of fluids a day, which is a heck of a lot for a cat. Are you measuring how much fluid he is getting?
> 
> He may be happier if you can give him a room in your house to which only he has access. I mean he can share it with a human, but not another cat. You would achieve this by fitting a microchip catflap to the door of the room, and just scanning his chip in. In his room he would have his own litter tray, water bowl, bed and food. This can work well where there is one cat being bullied in a multicat household. He would have access to other parts of the house, but none of the other cats could get in his room.
> 
> It is really important to get the allergies sorted out though, as it is making him so miserable. And the stress could definitely be contributing to causing the cystitis.


Ok so goats milk from asda. Explain a raw diet what kind of things can I give him that could work he will eat that? I havnt changed his food no he has cd urine forgot what it's called. Vet prescribed food. I've booked him in the vets to sort his skin out so hopefully they can find out what's causing the allergy. Ok so February when it started the kittens were about 9 months old, no work or nothing changed except the rabbits, we got some more. Also the rabbits all run round the garden together whilst the cats are out and he just sits on top of the hutch and watches them. Ive noticed today my other male cat is showing signs using the litter tray a lot and straining but no blood and no other symptoms. Could it be that these 2 have a problem with each other? Or are stressed about the same thing? These 2 seem to be together the most out of all of them. He won't eat wet food all the other cats will he's fussy about what dry food he eats aswell. Ive locked him in a room before with just wet food for half a day and he still wouldn't eat it. He goes outside most the time but will wee in the house on the bathroom mat or the mat by the front door, I've even put a tray in them places he tends to go, or he will just wee anywhere, we can't leave anything lieng about or it will get weed on. When he comes in he goes upstairs, he's the only cat allowed upstairs the rest get shut downstairs.


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## chillminx

You can't just shut him in a room for half a day with a dish of wet food and expect him to eat it! That won't work in a month of Sundays, and of course he will refuse it! 

As I said, you have to make the transfer very very slowly. Grind up a teaspoonful of dry food in a clean coffee grinder and sprinkle it on top of wet food. Coffee grinders are cheap to buy off amazon if you don't have one. Your cat will automatically get wet food in his mouth as he eats the dry food on the top, and it will get him used to eating wet food gradually, so you will be able to reduce the amount of dry food you sprinkle on the top as time goes on.

Raw food - if you are going to feed it all the time, it needs to be a balanced diet of 80% meat (including heart) 10% offal (kidney, liver, etc) and 10% bone. The meat needs to be super fresh, and can include chicken, turkey, lamb, pork, beef, pigeon, rabbit etc. Otherwise you could feed raw for one meal a day, e.g. chunks of fresh meat from the supermarket to which you add a vitamin and mineral supplement such as Felini Complete which you buy from Zooplus.

Dry food contains so many different ingredients including several meat proteins, that it will be impossible to tell which ones he is allergic to. He will need to be on a single protein diet. Please do not waste your money having blood tests done at the vets for allergies as the results are unreliable, as well as being expensive. The vet will not be able to tell what foods your cat is allergic to, all he can do is recommend a low allergen food, such as RC z/d or Hills. It may solve the problem if you can get the cat to eat it. My cat with allergies, who btw is NOT fussy, would not touch the RC z/d or the Hills.

I would think the two cats who spend most time together probably get on OK. It is more likely your cat has a problem with one of the other cats. And I guess if you have a lot of rabbits running around the garden, your cat might find it stressful, though I have never heard of it........ unless the rabbits are attacking him? I would be concerned about the safety of the rabbits as they are prey animals for the cats. Rabbits need to be bold and confident to live safely with cats, so the cats don't see them as potential prey. 

Your household sounds busy with 4 cats and lots of rabbits, perhaps other pets too? Maybe there are too many animals for your cat to share with comfortably and he would rather be an only cat, or just with one companion. Remind me - how old is he and how long have you had him? Cats are solitary creatures by nature although some are happy to share their home with a companion, if it is one they get along with.

If you feel your boy's stress is linked to you adopting more rabbits earlier this year, perhaps you should think of re-homing some of the rabbits, for the sake of your cat's health and happiness.


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## Erostill

chillminx said:


> You can't just shut him in a room for half a day with a dish of wet food and expect him to eat it! That won't work in a month of Sundays, and of course he will refuse it!
> 
> As I said, you have to make the transfer very very slowly. Grind up a teaspoonful of dry food in a clean coffee grinder and sprinkle it on top of wet food. Coffee grinders are cheap to buy off amazon if you don't have one. Your cat will automatically get wet food in his mouth as he eats the dry food on the top, and it will get him used to eating wet food gradually, so you will be able to reduce the amount of dry food you sprinkle on the top as time goes on.
> 
> Raw food - if you are going to feed it all the time, it needs to be a balanced diet of 80% meat (including heart) 10% offal (kidney, liver, etc) and 10% bone. The meat needs to be super fresh, and can include chicken, turkey, lamb, pork, beef, pigeon, rabbit etc. Otherwise you could feed raw for one meal a day, e.g. chunks of fresh meat from the supermarket to which you add a vitamin and mineral supplement such as Felini Complete which you buy from Zooplus.
> 
> Dry food contains so many different ingredients including several meat proteins, that it will be impossible to tell which ones he is allergic to. He will need to be on a single protein diet. Please do not waste your money having blood tests done at the vets for allergies as the results are unreliable, as well as being expensive. The vet will not be able to tell what foods your cat is allergic to, all he can do is recommend a low allergen food, such as RC z/d or Hills. It may solve the problem if you can get the cat to eat it. My cat with allergies, who btw is NOT fussy, would not touch the RC z/d or the Hills.
> 
> I would think the two cats who spend most time together probably get on OK. It is more likely your cat has a problem with one of the other cats. And I guess if you have a lot of rabbits running around the garden, your cat might find it stressful, though I have never heard of it........ unless the rabbits are attacking him? I would be concerned about the safety of the rabbits as they are prey animals for the cats. Rabbits need to be bold and confident to live safely with cats, so the cats don't see them as potential prey.
> 
> Your household sounds busy with 4 cats and lots of rabbits, perhaps other pets too? Maybe there are too many animals for your cat to share with comfortably and he would rather be an only cat, or just with one companion. Remind me - how old is he and how long have you had him? Cats are solitary creatures by nature although some are happy to share their home with a companion, if it is one they get along with.
> 
> If you feel your boy's stress is linked to you adopting more rabbits earlier this year, perhaps you should think of re-homing some of the rabbits, for the sake of your cat's health and happiness.


I'm going to try wet food again tommorrow I'm going to put them all in it I think. I don't no if it is an allergy it's all over his body? Is that an allergy or a skin problem? I can't feed him wet food special food for his bladder and anti allergy food though can I? So how do I work round that? The rabbits are ok with the cats they play with Each other. My cats have grew up with rabbits since I first had them. Even milo we lived in a flat and there was a rabbit in the communal garden. I had milo first the one with the problem he is 4 I had him when he was 8 weeks old then when he was about 6 months I had Maisy. They got on great then I had the kittens when they was about 3 they are now about 18 months old. I am trying to rehome some of the rabbits but as its winter it's going to be quite hard and I don't just want them going anywhere


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## chillminx

There are quite a few things that can cause feline dermatitis. I assumed your vet has already ruled out skin problems such as mites, flea allergy, ringworm, autoimmune disease etc. ? Has your cat been treated recently for fleas and mites? Have skin scrapings been taken and tested at the lab?

Only when all those things have been ruled out should food allergies be considered. Food allergies can cause skin eruptions all over the body, (they do in one of my cats when he has an episode) but often start on the head and face and around the neck.

If he does have a food allergy you would have to feed the special dietary food and add supplements to it to help his bladder eg. cystophan or cystease.

If your other cat is still going to the litter tray a lot and not passing anything, and if he has not passed any urine all day, then take him to the vet first thing in the morning. He could have a blockage in his uretha, which is very dangerous. If he has peed but not pooed in the past 24 hrs then he might be constipated and you don't want him straining as it could cause his rectum to prolapse. So get him examined by the vet.

I can't say what is causing your cat to be stressed. To give you an informed opinion I would need to see how things are in your home, how the cats all interact with each other. That is what an animal behaviourist would do - perhaps you should consider calling one in to observe and assess your cat. If you have pet insurance it will pay for a home visit consultation, providing your vet refers you.  If you don't have insurance, then it would cost you about £80 for the visit. These people are very good, there maybe one near you....

http://www.capbt.co.uk/

If you feel the rabbits are not the cause then there is no need to rehome any of them. I agree you have to be careful who they go to also.


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## Erostill

chillminx said:


> There are quite a few things that can cause feline dermatitis. I assumed your vet has already ruled out skin problems such as mites, flea allergy, ringworm, autoimmune disease etc. ? Has your cat been treated recently for fleas and mites? Have skin scrapings been taken and tested at the lab?
> 
> Only when all those things have been ruled out should food allergies be considered. Food allergies can cause skin eruptions all over the body, (they do in one of my cats when he has an episode) but often start on the head and face and around the neck.
> 
> If he does have a food allergy you would have to feed the special dietary food and add supplements to it to help his bladder eg. cystophan or cystease.
> 
> If your other cat is still going to the litter tray a lot and not passing anything, and if he has not passed any urine all day, then take him to the vet first thing in the morning. He could have a blockage in his uretha, which is very dangerous. If he has peed but not pooed in the past 24 hrs then he might be constipated and you don't want him straining as it could cause his rectum to prolapse. So get him examined by the vet.
> 
> I can't say what is causing your cat to be stressed. To give you an informed opinion I would need to see how things are in your home, how the cats all interact with each other. That is what an animal behaviourist would do - perhaps you should consider calling one in to observe and assess your cat. If you have pet insurance it will pay for a home visit consultation, providing your vet refers you. If you don't have insurance, then it would cost you about £80 for the visit. These people are very good, there maybe one near you....
> 
> http://www.capbt.co.uk/
> 
> If you feel the rabbits are not the cause then there is no need to rehome any of them. I agree you have to be careful who they go to also.


No only just noticed the skin problems so booked him in the vets. He has been flead about 3 weeks ago. He has cystese at the minute aswell

He has been he's just going a lot and doing the little wees so might be best I feed them all wet food and sprinkle the cystese on both the boys food. Yes I've found a cat behaviourist in my area going to try what I can first. That's the thing isn't if it isn't the rabbits then then they don't need to be rehomed but if it is then they do but there's no way of finding out so its a hard decision to make


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## Erostill

No look with the wet food I've done wat you said and sprinkled it on. He's turned his nose up at it and he's hungrey cuz he keeps coming to where his bowl is and meowing


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## Erostill

Spoke to soon. I've shut him in the bathroom away from the rest of the cats and he's eating it!!


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## chillminx

Erostill said:


> Spoke to soon. I've shut him in the bathroom away from the rest of the cats and he's eating it!!


Brilliant! Keep up the good work! 

Which wet food are you feeding him? Felix As Good As It Looks goes down well with most cats and is a good food to use when making the transfer from dry to wet. It is better then the cheaper stuff, e.g. Whiskas. Later on when he is used to eating wet food you could gradually introduce some better quality wet food.


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## Erostill

He's not eating it all he's more licking the juices off but that's we want so that's good I guess


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## Erostill

chillminx said:


> Brilliant! Keep up the good work!
> 
> Which wet food are you feeding him? Felix As Good As It Looks goes down well with most cats and is a good food to use when making the transfer from dry to wet. It is better then the cheaper stuff, e.g. Whiskas. Later on when he is used to eating wet food you could gradually introduce some better quality wet food.


Yes that's what I've got him felix as good as it looks


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## moggie14

It's great that he is at least trying the wet food! Try and mash it up as much as possible with a fork x


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## moggie14

Well Monty has now had more blood tests and X rays done - await results. Vet thinking possibly heart problems or even a bit of bone stuck right down his throat!
Next step a camera down his throat at Langfords. Luckily we live a few miles away!
Thank God for Petplan - it seems they are going to pay for all of this. Fingers crossed they will get to the bottom of his symptoms as he is still relatively young.


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## andrewjacson

Thanks for sharing. Really interesting to read about Metacam and other NSAID, something I wasn't aware of and will bear in mind when Vivi is medicated in the future.


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## Erostill

The blood send to have gone in his wee and his wees are bigger but he's still weeing everywhere. My cats are getting really greedy with the wet for though so will one each a day be ok and maybe give the one with the problems 2


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## andrewjacson

Thanks For Sharing great post with us this is a very informative post.


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## huckybuck

moggie14 said:


> Well Monty has now had more blood tests and X rays done - await results. Vet thinking possibly heart problems or even a bit of bone stuck right down his throat!
> Next step a camera down his throat at Langfords. Luckily we live a few miles away!
> Thank God for Petplan - it seems they are going to pay for all of this. Fingers crossed they will get to the bottom of his symptoms as he is still relatively young.


I really hope you can find out what's wrong with Monty. I hope it's something easily treated and nothing serious xx


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## moggie14

Thanks hun, not heard from my friend for a while, will ask her for an update xx


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## Erostill

Ok so an update the wees are certainly bigger Infact rather big wees still has a pinky colour in and he is still weeing on things but the smell is really bad it's the same smell as when I first found the wee with blood in which was quite a big puddle. Is this good news or bad


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## OrientalSlave

Fresh wee shouldn't smell unless he's an entire male. Has he been to the Vets?


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## Erostill

OrientalSlave said:


> Fresh wee shouldn't smell unless he's an entire male. Has he been to the Vets?


Yes went Friday the vet just puts everything down to stress and cystitis. But the smells terrible he's had the smell before wen we first noticed but it's back now but his wees are bigger and the bloods lighter which means it's not fresh blood so why the smell?


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## Erostill

Erostill said:


> Yes went Friday the vet just puts everything down to stress and cystitis. But the smells terrible he's had the smell before wen we first noticed but it's back now but his wees are bigger and the bloods lighter which means it's not fresh blood so why the smell?





Erostill said:


> Yes went Friday the vet just puts everything down to stress and cystitis. But the smells terrible he's had the smell before wen we first noticed but it's back now but his wees are bigger and the bloods lighter which means it's not fresh blood so why the smell?


Sorry no he's neutered this smells like gone off meat not ammonia


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## moggie14

That doesn't sound so good. Has he ever had antibiotics? xx


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## OrientalSlave

Is there more than one vet at the practice? If he was my cat I'd be going back and mentioning the smell.


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## Erostill

moggie14 said:


> That doesn't sound so good. Has he ever had antibiotics? xx


Yes he's had lots of antibartics


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## Erostill

Yes he's seen all the vets there and also been to 2 other practices they all say it's cystitis


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## Erostill

We no it's cystitis I'm just trying to find ways to manage it. The vet has said its a very hard thing to manage. The wet food seems to have made his wees a lot bigger and the blood lighter but not stopped him weeing on things. So I'm going to continue with that. I think I'm going to buy more hooded litter trays


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## Erostill

Any idea what I can put behind the to to stop him weeing on the plugs. He's tripped the electric. Anything plastic won't work he like weeing on plastic


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## chillminx

Lots of cats do find plastic attractive for weeing on, so I agree that won't work. With regard to how to stop him I think you need to take action to deal with the cause rather than just cover up the plugs. In any case I am not sure what you can safely cover them with, as covering them may cause them to over heat. If you take the plugs out of the wall when you are not using the equipment, you can buy childproof covers for the sockets which should protect them from your cat's wee.

Do you mean he is spraying up the wall on the plugs? If so, then he is scent marking with urine and this is likely to be due to him not getting along with one of your other 3 cats. Either he is being bullied by one of them, or he does not want to share with 3 other cats and he is continually feeling the need to mark his territory to make himself feel more secure.

Does he go out at all? He may feel happier if he can go out and get away from the other cats. But of course only if you are in a safe area.

The alternative is to divide your home so that your upset cat can live as an only cat in one half of the house whilst the other 3 live together in the other half. This can work well.
You'd need to install some kind of a fixed barrier such as a door between the two halves of the house, so your upset cat learns that he really does have an area of his own.

Or you could try giving him a room of his own (which he can share with a human, but not the other cats). You'd have to fit a microchip catflap to the door, and just scan in his chip. Put his food, water bowl, litter trays, bed and scratch post in his room. He can come out into the rest of the house when he wants to, but he will have a bolthole to escape to when he wants to be alone. And of course you'd have to be sure to keep the door shut at all times, so the other cats can't wander in.

The only time I have come across a cat with odd almost meaty smelling wee was when one of my previous senior cats had a kidney infection. Has your vet taken a sample of urine from your cat's bladder and sent it to the lab for culture? It is best to do this when there are repeated UTIs so the right antibiotic can be identified. 

If it were to be a kidney infection he might well need a course of ABs for a month to clear it. The fact the blood in his urine is pink not red just means the urine is more dilute. It does not necessarily mean his bladder is any better. But in the long term it will be much better for him to be on the wet food.

Meanwhile the blood in the urine needs investigating. Has he already had a scan to check for stones in his bladder?


----------



## Erostill

chillminx said:


> Lots of cats do find plastic attractive for weeing on, so I agree that won't work. With regard to how to stop him I think you need to take action to deal with the cause rather than just cover up the plugs. In any case I am not sure what you can safely cover them with, as covering them may cause them to over heat. If you take the plugs out of the wall when you are not using the equipment, you can buy childproof covers for the sockets which should protect them from your cat's wee.
> 
> Do you mean he is spraying up the wall on the plugs? If so, then he is scent marking with urine and this is likely to be due to him not getting along with one of your other 3 cats. Either he is being bullied by one of them, or he does not want to share with 3 other cats and he is continually feeling the need to mark his territory to make himself feel more secure.
> 
> Does he go out at all? He may feel happier if he can go out and get away from the other cats. But of course only if you are in a safe area.
> 
> The alternative is to divide your home so that your upset cat can live as an only cat in one half of the house whilst the other 3 live together in the other half. This can work well.
> You'd need to install some kind of a fixed barrier such as a door between the two halves of the house, so your upset cat learns that he really does have an area of his own.
> 
> Or you could try giving him a room of his own (which he can share with a human, but not the other cats). You'd have to fit a microchip catflap to the door, and just scan in his chip. Put his food, water bowl, litter trays, bed and scratch post in his room. He can come out into the rest of the house when he wants to, but he will have a bolthole to escape to when he wants to be alone. And of course you'd have to be sure to keep the door shut at all times, so the other cats can't wander in.
> 
> The only time I have come across a cat with odd almost meaty smelling wee was when one of my previous senior cats had a kidney infection. Has your vet taken a sample of urine from your cat's bladder and sent it to the lab for culture? It is best to do this when there are repeated UTIs so the right antibiotic can be identified.
> 
> If it were to be a kidney infection he might well need a course of ABs for a month to clear it. The fact the blood in his urine is pink not red just means the urine is more dilute. It does not necessarily mean his bladder is any better. But in the long term it will be much better for him to be on the wet food.
> 
> Meanwhile the blood in the urine needs investigating. Has he already had a scan to check for stones in his bladder?





chillminx said:


> Lots of cats do find plastic attractive for weeing on, so I agree that won't work. With regard to how to stop him I think you need to take action to deal with the cause rather than just cover up the plugs. In any case I am not sure what you can safely cover them with, as covering them may cause them to over heat. If you take the plugs out of the wall when you are not using the equipment, you can buy childproof covers for the sockets which should protect them from your cat's wee.
> 
> Do you mean he is spraying up the wall on the plugs? If so, then he is scent marking with urine and this is likely to be due to him not getting along with one of your other 3 cats. Either he is being bullied by one of them, or he does not want to share with 3 other cats and he is continually feeling the need to mark his territory to make himself feel more secure.
> 
> Does he go out at all? He may feel happier if he can go out and get away from the other cats. But of course only if you are in a safe area.
> 
> The alternative is to divide your home so that your upset cat can live as an only cat in one half of the house whilst the other 3 live together in the other half. This can work well.
> You'd need to install some kind of a fixed barrier such as a door between the two halves of the house, so your upset cat learns that he really does have an area of his own.
> 
> Or you could try giving him a room of his own (which he can share with a human, but not the other cats). You'd have to fit a microchip catflap to the door, and just scan in his chip. Put his food, water bowl, litter trays, bed and scratch post in his room. He can come out into the rest of the house when he wants to, but he will have a bolthole to escape to when he wants to be alone. And of course you'd have to be sure to keep the door shut at all times, so the other cats can't wander in.
> 
> The only time I have come across a cat with odd almost meaty smelling wee was when one of my previous senior cats had a kidney infection. Has your vet taken a sample of urine from your cat's bladder and sent it to the lab for culture? It is best to do this when there are repeated UTIs so the right antibiotic can be identified.
> 
> If it were to be a kidney infection he might well need a course of ABs for a month to clear it. The fact the blood in his urine is pink not red just means the urine is more dilute. It does not necessarily mean his bladder is any better. But in the long term it will be much better for him to be on the wet food.
> 
> Meanwhile the blood in the urine needs investigating. Has he already had a scan to check for stones in his bladder?


No it's wee it's all over the extension what the blues go in its a big puddle. Yes I'm trying to manage it but running out of ideas but I need to protect the electrics or next time it might not just trip. Yes he goes out in the day but I do t let them out at night I wouldn't be able to sleep and anything could could happen to them. Sorry I'm a bit over protective. He comes in and goes upstairs on his own all night I shut the door at the bottem of the stairs and the rest stay down here. I can have a cat flap fitted it's a rented property. Hes had scans and Irvine tests. I'm starting to think it's a bit more wthan cystitis. He had antibartics aswell twice


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## chillminx

If it's an extension lead lying on the floor, then take it off the floor and put it on a table, shelf, or desk out of the cats' way. Or put a cardboard box over it.

I don't recommend you allow your cats out at night. The only cats I have ever allowed out at night were 2 older cats, who were already seniors when I adopted them. They got upset if they were shut in, and would soil or spray indoors. They never went further than the garden, and neither of them came to any harm outdoors. I have no idea whether your cat would be any happier if he had free access 24/7.

How old is your cat btw? Not sure if you mentioned it, sorry if I missed it.

I think you should talk to your vet about the strange smell of your cat's urine.

If all the relevant physical investigations have found nothing maybe it is time to think of bringing in a feline behavioural specialist. If you have pet insurance it will pay for this providing you get your cat referred by your vet. This organisation is good, check the list of behaviourists, there may be one near you. The cost is about £80 a visit I believe, and you may only need one visit and a followup by phone.

http://www.capbt.co.uk/


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## Erostill

He will get it if I move it on top still. I've sprey some get off sprey down there I'll try and took it behind the to as much as I can. Apparently it's normal with cystitis. Shall I ask to try some more antibartics? Yes that was my last resort


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## chillminx

It could be the smell of the plastic that's attracting him to spray it. I think it reminds some cats of the smell of cat urine, so they think a strange cat has been in and sprayed. Probably best to cover the extension lead with a cardboard box then.

It is only worth trying him on more antibiotics if you first have a sample of urine cultured at the lab so they can tell you definitely if there is still an infection, and if so which antibiotic the bacteria will be sensitive to. Giving more antibiotics without a lab test could be a waste of time, and also it is not good for him to have antibiotics he doesn't need, as all antibiotics upset the bowel flora.

I would talk to the vet about taking a urine sample by cystocentesis (vet takes sample straight from the bladder) and having it sent off for culture.


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## andrewjacson

Heart disease in cats presents itself in much the same way as in dogs, with a few exceptions. The biggest difference is that cats tend to mask their signs better than dogs, and therefore go longer without detection. Since early detection is key, be on the lookout for the following signs.While coughing is a major symptom of heart disease in dogs, it does not often occur in cats. Cats, however, do vomit as a result of heart disease, where dogs do not.
If your cat's breathing becomes labored, or if it experiences shortness of breath or begins to breathe more rapidly than usual, it may be a sign of heart disease.Care For Your cat is very important for everyone.


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## andrewjacson

Similar to humans, cancer is the leading cause of death among older cats*.* It is caused by uncontrolled cell growth, and affects a wide range of cell types and organs in the body. Feline cancer initially manifests as a lump or bump on any parts of the body.


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## OrientalSlave

Have you got the statistics to back this claim up?


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## andrewjacson

Lots of substances that are around us everyday can be a poison or toxin for cats. Cats are most commonly exposed to poisons by eating them but poisons can also be inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Not all poisonings are fatal. Most poisons do not have an antidote and treatment is usually aimed at giving supportive care and treating the signs of poisoning until the poison is removed from the cat’s system.There are no specific signs that cover all types of poisoning. If you notice any change in your cat’s health, such as vomiting, diarrhoea, incoordination or changes in appetite or thirst then contact your vet for advice. Other signs that your cat may have been poisoned include foreign material on his hair or feet, foreign material in his vomitus, or a strange smell to his hair, breath, vomitus or faeces.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Feline cancer doesn't necessarily manifest as a lump or bump at all. The most common feline cancer is lymphoma, which in some cases doesn't form a discrete tumour.


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## Clairea04

We finally managed to get our vets to do blood tests on courage out cat that had long term metacam and looks like it has affected her liver, she is now booked in for ultrasound next week, all other bloods were good except liver and white blood cells liver very low white cells raised she has lost over a kilogram and a half since she was in metacam she was very overweight now down to 3.1 kg from 4.5, she eats and eats but she has gone from dried food to wet her choice, just not putting on weight, she is still fully engaged in life, but I feel we might lose her soon, 
So worried there is something seriously wrong with her liver now,


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## OrientalSlave

I hope the blood tests included thyroid levels.


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## Clairea04

Yes all normal


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## nicolaa123

A small update on riley. This year he has been pretty well and I actually went on holiday to see my best friend in Australia for just over two weeks! You can imagine the internal turmoil I had, but riley was fine with his cat sitter he missed me and we did have a period after where he was comfort eating and wolfing his food but he has been in quite good health.

He had his full mot last week and his bloody liver is playing up again and his levels higher that the time they were high before.

Clinically he is great, put on 6g so now 4.44kg, really happy and loving life.

Vet referrals have suggested we go down ab and liver med route or ultra scan then potentially steroids. I've opted for the tablet route initially with a re test in a months time, then possibly the ultra scan or needle biopsy.

I could scream I really could as you would not from looking at him think he is unwell at all!

Anyway hope all others are doing "ok"


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## bluecordelia

Thats great you escaped!! I would go for meds too. Being prettty stable is good. X


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## Forester

Its great news that the gorgeous Riley is looking really well and is maintaining weight. That, in itself, must be reassuring 

Sorry to hear that Riley's liver is , however, giving you cause for concern. I have no experience what so ever of liver issues but if the meds have worked in the past I would definitely see them as the first choice.

Dylan is fine. We're on vet No 6  whose opinion is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with him physically.   The problem is a nervous one. He's off all prescription meds / prescription diets and is better than he's been for a long time, He's still vomiting but nowhere near as much as he was. It seems to be mostly down to anxiety/ excitement.


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## bluecordelia

I think a lot of ours are highly strung. Blue thrived with being able to go out. We still have the odd whopping hairball but I forget how she gets just before ie starving and a bit agitated. 

Hope everyone well x


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## sarahecp

Hello stranger  

I'm pleased to hear the gorgeous Riley has been doing well, great that he is gaining weight  sorry to hear that his liver is playing up again  another one here that would opt for the meds as you know they helped before. Keeping all crossed here they help again this time xx

All is good with Ro, I finally plucked up the courage to try a different VC food, I went for hare, Ro wasn't keen, there were no poo issues with the tiny amount I gave him in the week or so he had it. Left it about 6 weeks and tried him with a tiny bit of VC rabbit, he likes it and it likes him  still adding small amounts to the skippy and things are still going ok. 

His weight has been up and down, more down than up, he's going for monthly weight checks, last month he'd lost 150g, he's going to be weighed on Saturday. Our vet has said if he starts losing again she'll run some bloods and take it from there. Apart from that he's still being a loonie coonie


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## nicolaa123

Pleased all are doing ok... Well that's all we can ask for!!

I don't know I have a niggle and its niggling me. After all I asked for the liver tests not the vet..... Maybe I'm reading too much into my own intuition or not, that's what I can't decide....


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## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Pleased all are doing ok... Well that's all we can ask for!!
> 
> I don't know I have a niggle and its niggling me. After all I asked for the liver tests not the vet..... Maybe I'm reading too much into my own intuition or not, that's what I can't decide....


Its so, so difficult to know whether to ask for tests or not. We all worry so much about missing something that might, or might not be there. I've always thought that its best to follow up any suspicion that something might be not quite right . Did anything specific cause you to request the blood tests?


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## nicolaa123

No just a feeling


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## nicolaa123

So I've had two vomit piles and a lovely pile of poo folded into my bathroom mat..his way of hiding it! The mat was next to his litter tray......poor boy must have been urgent! I wondered why my mat was folded in two.....am guessing it's the meds messing him up, will see how he goes he is still fine in himself so not overly worried just wish my boy could be all well


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## bluecordelia

Oh Riley get well kiddo x


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## moggie14

An update on my friends cat Monty. His symptoms seemed to improve for a while then suddenly got worse again last week.
He stayed overnight at Langfords on Thursday night for investigations. It turned out that Monty had a partially collapsed lung and airway! They drained a huge amount of mucus from his lungs and he is now home on antibiotics.
No firm diagnosis yet, they are waiting on test results which should come back next week. Possible feline asthma with serious bacterial infection on top but await news.
I'll keep updating as this may help someone else xx


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## Kittykay

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone can offer any advise, I had a ten week old kitten, I've had him for two weeks and he has had three days in total without diarrhoea. 

He's been to see the vet twice and they haven't been much help so far, he has also had a sore bum which just leaks as he walks, he goes through an active with diarrhoea stage then not eating and lethargic and then back to eating with liquid poop!

He's had pro Korin and probiotics so far, he is an royal canin kitten wet pouches. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'm at my wits end with what to do.

Thanks


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## bluecordelia

Hi kitty lay sorry to hear your kit is poorly. Different things work so I would try a chicken broth as a lot of commercial cat food has not a lot of meat and lots of fillers like cheap cereals. Boil up some chicken thighs and take the bone out. A lot of ib cats have one source of protein ie kangaroo which we buy online. I feed my girl raw now or high quality tinned. I would suggest you don't give dry food. I add warm water to all wet food which helps prevent dehydration and cats don't usually drink a lot. If your kit had a sore anus use Vaseline or petroleum jelly. If coat is dirty trim it back. Let us know how you get on. Blue had a poo sample and antibiotics as she had bacteria clostridium perfingums. I feel a lot of my cats tummy issues were stress. Does your kitten need s high up safe place? 

Let us know how u get on


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## Kittykay

Hi, I finally got him to eat last night, some booked chicken and overnight we have had a poop in the litter tray, it was all dried up by this morning so not sure how liquid it was but the fact he done in the tray is a massive improvement.

How much chicken should he be eating? He had half a breast strip this morning but still seems hungry.

How long can ge be fed just chicken (if this solves the diarrhoea?) 

Thank you


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## nicolaa123

Feeding the chicken will be a short term thing, it gives the stomach a rest..

I would strongly suggest a full stool test by the vest including tf to rule out parasites. Food wise as has been very well put, single protein and grain free is the best place to start. Depending on the stool results will be what your next steps will be. Needs to be a three day sample, you can keep it in the fridge..



Oh and I will be calling the vet tomorrow....it's not good, riley is really sick on the new meds.


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## Kittykay

Hi, kitten is much better today, diarrhoea has stopped and he has stopped sleeping all the time.

He seems to have a slight cough only when being stroked so vets tomorrow! I'm going to do some research on home made food and raw feeding as well.

Thanks for you advice


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## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Oh and I will be calling the vet tomorrow....it's not good, riley is really sick on the new meds.


I'm so sorry to hear this.. How is the handsome Riley now and what did your vet say ?

How did you get on at the vets, KK and how is the little one now? What is his name?


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## nicolaa123

Vet (liking my new vet) says we need to try the metrondiazole at the same time to see if it calms the back end situation. I actually thought it had until I found two spat out tablets...

This morning explosive in the tray, this evening explosive all over his tail, he is not comfortable at all.

My vet says I can try next couple days with the other pills and I can call her Christmas Day for any advice about how he is feeling.

Problem we have is, there is limited antibiotics due to him being allergic to one and if we go down the route of more heavy duty ones they will have the same effect. But if we can't get his levels down then, well I don't want to think about that.

I can see am ultra scan coming up in January..


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## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Vet (liking my new vet) says we need to try the metrondiazole at the same time to see if it calms the back end situation. I actually thought it had until I found two spat out tablets...
> 
> This morning explosive in the tray, this evening explosive all over his tail, he is not comfortable at all.
> 
> My vet says I can try next couple days with the other pills and I can call her Christmas Day for any advice about how he is feeling.
> 
> Problem we have is, there is limited antibiotics due to him being allergic to one and if we go down the route of more heavy duty ones they will have the same effect. But if we can't get his levels down then, well I don't want to think about that.
> 
> I can see am ultra scan coming up in January..


Oh Nicola , I'm sorry that I can't offer any suggestions. All that I can do is send a truckload of positive and healing vibes your way. Please give the handsome Riley a cuddle from me.

Just one thing. . . .how you are feeling about things *can *make a difference . Our sensitive boys do pick up on our feelings. Me being more relaxed about Dylan ( since being told that his problem is psychogenic ) has brought about a definite improvement in him.


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## nicolaa123

I get what you are saying but it's not that kind of thing, his liver is affected by the inflammation which can be due to bacteria in his gut causing inflammation. He needs medication but if it causes diarreah then it's a double edge thing, my worrying or not will not unfortunately make any difference as it is a physical problem.

we have davies so I am sure that we will find something but as I said it's a double edge and that's what I need to weigh up with Riley in mind and how it makes him feel.


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## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I get what you are saying but it's not that kind of thing, his liver is affected by the inflammation which can be due to bacteria in his gut causing inflammation. He needs medication but if it causes diarreah then it's a double edge thing, my worrying or not will not unfortunately make any difference as it is a physical problem.
> 
> we have davies so I am sure that we will find something but as I said it's a double edge and that's what I need to weigh up with Riley in mind and how it makes him feel.


Sorry, My brain is not in gear ATM. I realised as soon as I'd posted that you're referring to blood test results not to symptoms. Just ignore me.


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## nicolaa123

It's ok don't worry


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## Paddypaws

Just popping my head in on this thread and admitting I have not read all of it, but wanted to recommend a FB page I have joined recently.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/RawFedIBD/?ref=br_tf
I know it is primarily for raw feeders, but there are some really interesting files on supplements for IBD kitties that I thought some of you might want to look at.
For example, it reminded me of the use of Sachharomyces Boulardii which seems to have really helped Millie's _sensitive _digestion


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## Forester

Thanks, @Paddypaws, that's extremely thoughtful of you.

Up until now I haven't " done" Facebook but I think that this may signal time to change my ways. I'm sure that the others will find it useful too. You can never read too much.


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## Paddypaws

I think the page was set up in US or Canada...certainly quite a few of the products they mention are North American rather than European. I still find that US sites seem so much more pro-active than UK when it comes to home nursing with chronic conditions.
I like what I have read so far....one of the hints to stop morning vomits is to feed a small snack of freeze dried meat for example


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> I like what I have read so far....one of the hints to stop morning vomits is to feed a small snack of freeze dried meat for example


That's interesting. A while back Dylan started being sick each morning after I brought him in from his run. I found that giving him a small quantity of Ziwipeak dried lamb when he comes in, followed by his usual wet breakfast an hour later works most of the time.


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## Paddypaws

Back in the days when I fed dry, Paddy was a great fan of the _Scarf and Barf _manoeuvre especially at breakfast.....the long break without food allows stomach acid to build up I guess, and a small snack helps soak it up.


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## Forester

@Paddypaws. Sadly it seems a bit more complicated with Dylan  This is the only dry that he has, a few pieces twice daily with his zylkene. He gets fed up to 2am so doesn't get a huge time for acid to build up. Antacids had no effect.

He's a bit of an odd case , all tests including pinch biopsies " normal". Ultrasound indicates IBD "possible" but not probable..Antacids, steroids and dietary manipulation including hypoallergenic and novel protein diets make little or no difference. A/bs had either no effect or produced neurological side effects. 4 vets have refused to prescribe other drugs without a confirmed IBD diagnosis.

I've always considered him to be an IBD sufferer but 5 vets aren't sure . They wanted to do full thickness biopsies which OH and I consider too risky. He looks really well and has no weight loss. The last vet consulted says that he is not physically sick, his vomiting is psychogenic. He definitely seems better when I'm not stressed but its a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

Slippery Elm Bark is the only product to bring about any improvement but Dylan refused to eat it after a couple of weeks.I would like to try him on a raw diet ,and vet no 6 is pro raw, but sadly Dylan won't eat it reliably these days.

I'm open to any suggestions that you might be able to offer.

Thanks , if you've got this far.


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## Paddypaws

maybe you could join the FB page and see what they can suggest? I am no expert in this field I am afraid to say but maybe the experienced members on FB can offer some suggestions.
I am sure I would not be pushing for full thickness biopsies when the cat is otherwise well....I am more likely to try Homeopathy or Bach Flower remedies for the cat AND myself!


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## Forester

Paddypaws said:


> maybe you could join the FB page and see what they can suggest? I am no expert in this field I am afraid to say but maybe the experienced members on FB can offer some suggestions.
> I am sure I would not be pushing for full thickness biopsies when the cat is otherwise well....I am more likely to try Homeopathy or Bach Flower remedies for the cat AND myself!


Thanks PP . I will join the FB page. Incidently the homeopathy route for Dylan and Rescue Remedy for me is *exactly *what we're currently trying.


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## Clairea04

I'm in tears as I write this. At this moment and past couple of days my dh and I have been discussing when to put our precious 15 year old kitty to sleep, recent months she has lost a vast amount of weight,even though she has been eating well all blood tests came back normal apart from liver which was below normal, since Christmas Eve she has gone down hill fast she still wants food but not really eating will eat small amount via hand not really drinking having to syringe water into her now ans she is struggling to move at times she still loves her cuddles and has interest in looking outside no longer wants to go out has d&v. 
She was due an ultrasound on the 6th Jan but I don't think we can get her that far We Think it's time to say goodbye it's breaking my heart but it's better than dragging it out anymore


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## chillminx

I am so sorry to hear this sad news Claire  

It is unbearably difficult to have to make such a painful decision about a much loved feline companion, but and your OH know your kitty better than anyone else does and so you will understand when she has had enough of life and is ready to go. Your kitty trusts you to look after her and this includes doing whatever is best to prevent her suffering. 

But it is deeply upsetting to have to take the final step, and a terrible wrench to say goodbye to such a loyal friend. My heart goes out to you. 

Thinking of you with much sympathy. x


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## nicolaa123

I think here we are beyond the food thing, I doubt I will ever find anything else that he won't react to too much to be an issue, but I will have a look, I wish he would eat raw, but the little so and so...

I have stopped one lot of ab's as he was having explosive diarreah twice a day, just sticking to one ab for now, bloods re tested end if Jan as I have extended as seems daft to me after all the recent runs to test too soon.

Such a rubbish thing that he is reacting to the ab's as that could help his liver. After the next bloods depending on what they say I think I will take him back to davies if an ultra scan is needed.


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## graciemg

My lovely girl Sophie has a history of stress related cystitis. We adopted her from the CPL in April 2015, she needed rehoming as she is vision impaired and the family she came from had recently had a baby so the constant changes in her environment (toys suddenly appearing, furniture moving, being grabbed etc) turned her into a very nervous and stressed cat.

Last month we noticed that she hadn't used her litter tray for a good few days, there was no evidence of her going elsewhere in the house so we called the vet and it turned out she had cystitis again. After a month of to-ing and fro-ing, taking in urine samples and treating her with antibiotics she is improving however, an ultrasound revealed that her bladder walls are inflamed. The vet was originally checking for signs of bladder stones or even a tumour but luckily that doesn't seem to be the case. She was given more antibiotics and it's just been a case of keeping an eye on her.

She does still seem reluctant to urinate but will go eventually with some encouragement - i.e. we physically place her in the tray and reward her with a treat afterwards so she can associate the two. However, at the moment she is only dribbling so I'm worried that she is still suffering.

Another problem we have is that she has a habit of pooing on the living room carpet but she seems to do this as well as pooing in her litter area. I say area as she tends to hang her bum over the edge of the litter tray. However, having thoroughly cleaned and blocked the area she has now used her litter tray properly for poo and has even started to scrape the litter over it which she never used to do.

I'm reluctant to keep taking her to the vet if we can manage this ongoing at home and I would like to know if anyone has had a similar experience?

I would also like to try a homeopathic approach. Can anyone recommend a natural remedy that can perhaps go into her food or mixed in with her water? I have ordered some Feliway Cystease on the strength of reviews I read about it and I have also started adding water to her wet food to try and keep her fluids up.

Her appetite is very healthy, she's quite a greedy cat and loves to eat. We also have her on a diet as due to her sight issues she's not very active and is a fuller figured young lady of 6.6kgs.

She's on a very healthy diet of Lily's Kitchen wet food and Harrington's dry.

Should I forego dry food for a while or keep it in her diet and change the portion sizes so she's eating more wet food?

Thanks all


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## chillminx

Hi @graciemg, I am sorry to hear about Sophie's problems. It sounds as though she may have Feline Idiopathic Cystitis (FIC) - is FIC what the vet has diagnosed?

The occasions when she has been prescribed antibiotics has a urine sample been sent to the lab for culture? This would enable the type of bacteria present (if any) to be identified and the appropriate antibiotic to be prescribed. The vet would take the urine sample directly from the bladder by _cystocentesis.
_
First of all I would remove ALL dry food from Sophie's diet permanently. Cats with bladder problems do much better on an all wet food diet, as they are getting the moisture they need in their food as nature intends for them. I would also add a little water to her wet meals too. You could also make her some homemade chicken broth, if she would drink some. Basically the aim is to increase the amount of urine she passes and make it more dilute, so that she is encouraged to empty her bladder more frequently. Emptying it more often will flush the bladder through and prevent any bacteria getting a hold. Passing more dilute urine will be more comfortable for her and make her less likely to hold on, which she may have been doing.

I think you will also find that by removing all dry food she will lose some weight. 

Adding Cystease or Cystophan to her food is also a good idea. I know people also give their cats the herbal product
Waterfall D-Mannose, (for humans) but I have not used it for any of my cats so cannot tell you how much to give. I will try and find out from someone who gives it to their cat.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweet-Cures...452513077&sr=8-1&keywords=waterfall+d+mannose

There is a Feline Idiopathic Cystitis Support Group on Facebook, it is new so only quite small atm. May be worth you checking it out.

I am not sure how many litter trays you provide for Sophie but for any cat with cystitis it is best to provide as many as possible so there is always one fairly near to wherever she is in the house. I would say at least 3 large trays, in 3 separate toilet areas, not grouped together. I don't know how much her sight is impaired but large open trays may be best for her so that she can locate them easily by their scent.

Make sure she does not get constipated, as this can cause pressure on the bladder. Her stools should be firm and formed, not hard and dry, or at the other extreme - soft.

It is possible her cystitis is stress-related. You say she is a nervous cat so it would be worth considering giving her a supplement such as Zylkene, which can be given alongside Cystease etc. Or you could give herbal remedy Beaphar Calming spot-on which I give to one of my cats who gets stressed due to his territorial issues. I find the Beaphar does help him stay calmer, without making him sleepy.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-Cal...4195&sr=8-1&keywords=beaphar+spot-on+for+cats

http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/zylkene-capsules-pack-of-20-75mg.html

Feeding Sophie a diet of only Lily's Kitchen wet food would be very expensive and so it would be worth trying to introduce some more wet foods, not only to give her variety, but to ensure all nutritional bases are covered. Also it is wise not to feed just one make of food in case that food should suddenly be withdrawn from the market (it does happen) and then you would be stuck!

If Sophie is happy to eat pate style foods (like LK) you could have a look at the canned foods sold by online UK company The Happy Kitty Co. They import good quality German foods, which are very reasonably priced and better than most UK supermarket foods being grain free and with no added sugars. Ropocat, Granatapet, Macs and Tundra are all popular. You can order a trial pack to start with.

http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/cat-food/Cat

There are also some good quality canned (wet) foods sold by Zooplus UK. e.g. Catz Fine Food, Animonda Carny, Bozita, Grau.

Please let us know how things go with Sophie. Sending her many healing thoughts. 

_
_


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## graciemg

Hi @chillminx

Thanks for such an informative response!

We had to take urine samples in and I am pretty sure it's FIC (will have to check the notes). We were given Cystease in tablet form and a liquid medication (can't remember the name) which she was on for around two weeks. After that we took in another urine sample but there was still blood in her urine which resulted in an ultra sound for bladder stones (negative) so she was given a dose of antibiotics by the vet which we were told should have cleared it up and that if they needed another sample they'd be in touch.

Your comment re the dry food makes sense. She doesn't seem constipated however and her stools I would say are firm but for a cat are larger than I would expect. My childhood experience of cats fails to recall anything similar by old family pets.

We have two litter trays in place, one which is nice and large, the other was the first one we bought when we brought her home but she dwarfs it so I'll buy another large one 

Thanks for all the recommendations, I shall be researching these when I get home tonight and will definitely let you know how she progresses 

Update 13/01/16

Already made the slight changes to her diet and now my little girl is weeing voluntarily. She was still in a little discomfort at the weekend as I had to place her in the tray again but with the water being added to her wet food and the reduction in dry food her litter tray is now wet every day and her stools have also reduced in size.

I've received a 30 day supply of Feliway Cystease this morning so will be adding a tablet a day to her food but I am now hopeful that there'll be no further visits to the vet!

Thank you so much


----------



## maisiecat

I would like to add to this thread, after taking a lot of time to consider which practice to use I have to say please evaluate your choice regularly.

I thought I had chosen the best one I could find, however, possibly becoming more popular and busy and with one of the vets going on maternity leave, then the replacement vet and one of the nurses also going on maternity leave I have noticed a change. The atmosphere has changed, the stress is noticeable.

I try to see the same vet, the one I prefer is rarely taking appointments when I call, and the other one I try to see is often in surgery or busy which leaves me with a new vet each time, and I mean new to the practice, in some cases not so experienced and if it isn't one of their cases they don't bother to call you back if you have a question.

Fortunately they don't send me out of the room, that would be one step too far. I do sometimes wonder what actually happens when I leave my cat for tests, whether the experienced vet I chose the practice for is actually treating my cat or whether another vet or a nurse is taking care of him or her.


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## maisiecat

I am going to add one more thing.

I spent a lot of time looking for the 'best' vet and chose one with shiny new equipment, connections to the RVC, cat friendly clinic and which looked good on paper. Technically good, in fact.

However, what is more important is that your cat is not scared out of it's wits at going to the vet, when previously it has been laid back and has been fine with the previous practice. Finding a vet that knows how to handle a difficult cat with care rather than force, and not giving drugs that you have expressly request are not given. 

Look for a kind vet that your cat won't cringe away from and vomit at the thought of seeing, one that will wrap a nervous or stroppy patient in a towel and use a calming spray, stroke him/her, and talk gently to your pet. 

Don't just go for the fancy equipment, look for the bedside manner, the fancy equipment can be found at another branch of the practice where the staff are just as kind. Don't be taken in by the qualifications and diplomas on the windows, look for gentleness and a bedside manner. Some vets can forget that they are dealing with living creatures, not just another case.


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## Chippers

I apologise if it has been spoken about extensively already (I am at work so can't really read through all 243 pages!) but does slippery elm bark work well for cats with colitis or possible IBD? Neville may have suspected IBD or it could be a case of colitis, he has blood in his poo and after various vet trips and drugs it is still there. When on anti-inflammatories it didn't really improve well enough so I fed him boiled chicken for a few days which does clear it up, however once back on his normal diet it has come back which leads me to think that it is dietary related .
The problem I have is that the combination of food that he is currently on has worked really well with the dire rear side of things (also an issue previously) and the almost every day blood has only been in the last few weeks. Neville is also incredibly fussy and actually eats this food! Another point to add is that I have tried him with high meat/grain free etc and it caused horrible dire rear (and blood) so he can't tolerate that and he can't tolerate fish. He eats JWB kitten (Turkey) and Sheba fresh choice pouches (poultry flavours).

Because of his reaction before I am reluctant to try the high meat content Ropocat/Macs etc as I feel it would make it worse so after a bit of googling should I try Slippery Elm bark? Sorry if this seems all over the place, I'm trying to remember everything!

Thank you


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## Ceiling Kitty

If I may just add to @maisiecat's post, when choosing a veterinary practice you can check the list of ISFM-approved Cat Friendly Clinics for any in your area.

http://icatcare.org/catfriendlyclinic

It is a requirement of this scheme that all member practices pledge to make veterinary visits as stress-free as possible for their feline patients, from making use of separate cat-only waiting rooms or clinic times, to practising feline-friendly handling techniques.

Every practice also appoints at least one Cat Advocate - staff members who ensure the guidelines are being met within their practice. Cat Advocates are usually one of the vets or nurses, so if you ask to see the Cat Advocates then you can be pretty sure you will be seeing a cat lover who cares about handling cats with compassion.


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## maisiecat

I was pleased when the vet became Cat Friendly, however so many of the staff have been going off pregnant that the Vet Advocate is no longer there. I have not been offered a cat friendly person at any visit, ever. Judging by the fear my cats have shown I wonder how they judge the criteria. 
I have never seen this fear when we have been to our previous vets. You still need to be observant, all is not always what it seems.


----------



## Kat_Toffee

Hi
I read your post with interest. I would like to ask please how do you give the inhaler to the cat? My cat hates anything put near his face; I have him on oral steroids if I have to, but I'd really avoid that as much as possible. Thank you


----------



## nicolaa123

Chippers said:


> I apologise if it has been spoken about extensively already (I am at work so can't really read through all 243 pages!) but does slippery elm bark work well for cats with colitis or possible IBD? Neville may have suspected IBD or it could be a case of colitis, he has blood in his poo and after various vet trips and drugs it is still there. When on anti-inflammatories it didn't really improve well enough so I fed him boiled chicken for a few days which does clear it up, however once back on his normal diet it has come back which leads me to think that it is dietary related .
> The problem I have is that the combination of food that he is currently on has worked really well with the dire rear side of things (also an issue previously) and the almost every day blood has only been in the last few weeks. Neville is also incredibly fussy and actually eats this food! Another point to add is that I have tried him with high meat/grain free etc and it caused horrible dire rear (and blood) so he can't tolerate that and he can't tolerate fish. He eats JWB kitten (Turkey) and Sheba fresh choice pouches (poultry flavours).
> 
> Because of his reaction before I am reluctant to try the high meat content Ropocat/Macs etc as I feel it would make it worse so after a bit of googling should I try Slippery Elm bark? Sorry if this seems all over the place, I'm trying to remember everything!
> 
> Thank you


Hello, the thing with ibd is one fix does not cure all, it's certainly worth a try but would not potentially be the magic cure.

Elimination diet
Full bloods
Epi test
Endescopy
Ultra scan 
Full poo tests

Is the way to investigate whether your cat haS ibd or colitis. Then it's the balance of meds and foods and supplements to not cure but maintain and treat. It's a life long condition.


----------



## alixtaylor

Kat_Toffee said:


> Hi
> I read your post with interest. I would like to ask please how do you give the inhaler to the cat? My cat hates anything put near his face; I have him on oral steroids if I have to, but I'd really avoid that as much as possible. Thank you


If you're worried that he might struggle with it, then I'd suggest slowly building his tolerance up, using some training techniques. This video has some great tips: 





Good luck!


----------



## Kat_Toffee

Fantastic thank you 
I'll go and get one if it gets worse again. 
Toffee has allergy induced asthma, I'm trying to prevent the situation from getting to the point his breathing is affected.
Thank you again, that gives a lot of hope


----------



## chillminx

Kat_Toffee said:


> Fantastic thank you
> I'll go and get one if it gets worse again.
> Toffee has allergy induced asthma, I'm trying to prevent the situation from getting to the point his breathing is affected.
> Thank you again, that gives a lot of hope


I have asthma myself. Have you identified all the triggers for Toffee's asthma?


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

Additional resources - here are links to two groups I joined in 2015 on Yahoo

www.felinelymphoma.org and their Yahoo group https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/feline_lymphoma/info
This group has a feline oncologist Dr Jory. Once you ask to join and your membership gets accepted you can post questions to the group or directly to him. When you wish to post a question directly to him, just type in the subject line: 'Dr Jory - biopsy results' or something like that with his name first to get his attention.

https://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-cancer


----------



## negative creep

Found this thread very useful reading, Curtis was 16 so I knew he wouldn't be around forever and that helped me prepare for something I'd never had to go through. I knew deep down something was a bit off about his behaviour, then he wasn't eating properly but I put off ringing the vets for a few days because I was hoping it was nothing. Knew in my head it would be a one way trip driving to the vets, and looking back I'm glad she was able to instantly tell me he had a tumour because that prevented the need for stressful blood tests, x-rays, waiting for results etc. I had to go away the next week to, of all things, my Nan's funeral so didn't want him to go when I was up there. So I made the decision straight away.

The actual procedure was really quick, he didn't struggle at all and went limp seconds after the needle went in, so he wouldn't have felt a thing. Emotionally it was awful, although I kept it all together until I got to the car, and really wish I didn't have to go up there alone. But the actual procedure was very quick, straightforward and the vet was excellent


----------



## Sacrechat

I'm in a similar situation now. My boy aged 13 years 8 months is deteriorating. He's still eating some food but not enough. We keep trying different foods to tempt him but his weight is dropping. I know we will have to make that decision soon, but for now we are monitoring his situation and visiting the vet weekly for weighing etc. It's breaking my heart to lose him, but I am psyching myself up for what needs to be done very soon.


----------



## bluecordelia

Sacremist said:


> I'm in a similar situation now. My boy aged 13 years 8 months is deteriorating. He's still eating some food but not enough. We keep trying different foods to tempt him but his weight is dropping. I know we will have to make that decision soon, but for now we are monitoring his situation and visiting the vet weekly for weighing etc. It's breaking my heart to lose him, but I am psyching myself up for what needs to be done very soon.


Never easy as you never want them to go but you are monitoring so carefully. X


----------



## SusieRainbow

My first cat, Sophie, I had from a 6 week old kitten and it was just us for quite a while. Then along came hubby and kids, she wasn't impressed ! Anyway she lived to the ripe old age of 17 with no ilnesses or injuries then lost weight and became incontinent with diarrhoea. I took her to the vet who took one look at her, said this is a very sick cat and she won't get better, she could feel a mass in her belly. So we put her to sleep there and then with me talking to her and stroking her chin which she always loved. I had no doubts that it was the right thing to do but it was still emotionally draining.
The other cat was Oscar, my beautiful black boy who was hit by a truck outside the house. we took him straight to the vet, shrieking all the way, but the vet said his injuries were multiple and severe , so put him to sleep straight away. He was 14, the youngest of our cats to die. That was heartbbreaking.


----------



## lancelot's mum

Hi I am new to this my nearly 5 yr old male had suspected colitis. It started just b4 Christmas and he was bleeding from his rear every day I have changed to rc sensitivity and he has no more runny tum but is still producing a tiny amount of blood once or twice a week. I am in communication with the vet who said keep trying with the diet. Taking him in is the last resort as he is really stressed and would need sedating which in turn could make his colitis worse. I have been advised probiotics. 

He has no other symptoms and is fit and well . Can anyone else suggest something to try at home? Or should I persevere? Can it take ages to heal? I just need some reassurance I suppose.


----------



## nicolaa123

Hel


lancelot's mum said:


> Hi I am new to this my nearly 5 yr old male had suspected colitis. It started just b4 Christmas and he was bleeding from his rear every day I have changed to rc sensitivity and he has no more runny tum but is still producing a tiny amount of blood once or twice a week. I am in communication with the vet who said keep trying with the diet. Taking him in is the last resort as he is really stressed and would need sedating which in turn could make his colitis worse. I have been advised probiotics.
> 
> He has no other symptoms and is fit and well . Can anyone else suggest something to try at home? Or should I persevere? Can it take ages to heal? I just need some reassurance I suppose.


Hello best strategy is

Full poo tests
Full blood tests
Epi test
Ultra scan
Endoscopy 
food elimination diet

This will tell you what you are dealing with.

My cat still has ibd and still has flare ups and currently we are trying to get his liver under control.

If ibd it's a life long condition that's will not be cured but can be maintained..

Personally food elimination diet is where I think you need to start. Single novel protein no grains and limited add ons


----------



## lancelot's mum

nicolaa123 said:


> Hel
> 
> Hello best strategy is
> 
> Full poo tests
> Full blood tests
> Epi test
> Ultra scan
> Endoscopy
> food elimination diet
> 
> This will tell you what you are dealing with.
> 
> My cat still has ibd and still has flare ups and currently we are trying to get his liver under control.
> 
> If ibd it's a life long condition that's will not be cured but can be maintained..
> 
> Personally food elimination diet is where I think you need to start. Single novel protein no grains and limited add ons


Thanks he has been on this new food for about 2 weeks it has stopped the diarrhoea and the blood has reduced significantly in amount and frequency . I have been advised to monitor him if it gets worse or he has other symptoms then get a sample tested. But he seems really well no sickness great appetite. If he did his business outside I would never know it's just because he is an indoor cat!


----------



## Forester

@lancelot's mum, please don't dismiss any symptoms your cat may have because he seems otherwise well. I feel that it is imperative that you get his condition under control at the earliest opportunity. Sadly ,the longer your cat has any inflammation in his digestive system the longer it will take to come under control. I speak from, unfortunate , experience. 

My cat is a vomiter. This indicates only that the inflammation in his digestive system occurs further forward than that of a cat who suffers from dire rear. We have been through hypoallergenic diets ( which initially helped), novel protein diets, blood tests, poo tests, endoscopy with biopsies, steroids, antacids, antibiotics and ultrasound and all the time he has been gradually deteriorating. In addition , numerous vets have been unable to make a diagnosis which they are confident with. In your position I would persevere with the diet but also get any tests done as soon as you can. Please don't ignore the blood. It is an indication that something is wrong.

I have just started my boy on an extreme, hydrolysed, dry, diet despite having previously said that I would not allow him to have such food. I am in this position because we have not previously been able to get his vomiting under control. My boy seemed otherwise well and I repeatedly thought that I would soon identify and eliminate whatever was causing the vomiting. My boy is now booked in for a repeat ultrasound in the hope that the vets might finally be able to make a diagnosis. Without a proper diagnosis they are not prepared to prescribe drugs used to treat IBD which could have adverse side effects. If no diagnosis can be made we will be having full thickness biopsies from his intestinal tract . This is a risky and highly invasive procedure but we are in a position where we no longer have any alternative .Please ,don't let this happen to your boy.


----------



## lancelot's mum

Forester said:


> @lancelot's mum, please don't dismiss any symptoms your cat may have because he seems otherwise well. I feel that it is imperative that you get his condition under control at the earliest opportunity. Sadly ,the longer your cat has any inflammation in his digestive system the longer it will take to come under control. I speak from, unfortunate , experience.
> 
> My cat is a vomiter. This indicates only that the inflammation in his digestive system occurs further forward than that of a cat who suffers from dire rear. We have been through hypoallergenic diets ( which initially helped), novel protein diets, blood tests, poo tests, endoscopy with biopsies, steroids, antacids, antibiotics and ultrasound and all the time he has been gradually deteriorating. In addition , numerous vets have been unable to make a diagnosis which they are confident with. In your position I would persevere with the diet but also get any tests done as soon as you can. Please don't ignore the blood. It is an indication that something is wrong.
> 
> I have just started my boy on an extreme, hydrolysed, dry, diet despite having previously said that I would not allow him to have such food. I am in this position because we have not previously been able to get his vomiting under control. My boy seemed otherwise well and I repeatedly thought that I would soon identify and eliminate whatever was causing the vomiting. My boy is now booked in for a repeat ultrasound in the hope that the vets might finally be able to make a diagnosis. Without a proper diagnosis they are not prepared to prescribe drugs used to treat IBD which could have adverse side effects. If no diagnosis can be made we will be having full thickness biopsies from his intestinal tract . This is a risky and highly invasive procedure but we are in a position where we no longer have any alternative .Please ,don't let this happen to your boy.


Thanks I am in regular communication with the vet so will give him a little longer in the new diet an am getting the recommended probiotics next week if that doesn't work the next step is getting a sample tested before taking him in. He is really stressed at the vets and becomes aggressive he would need to be sedated to even get looked at


----------



## lancelot's mum

But thanks for the advise I am certainly not dismissing his symptoms but at the moment it does seem to be improving


----------



## Forester

lancelot's mum said:


> Thanks I am in regular communication with the vet so will give him a little longer in the new diet an am getting the recommended probiotics next week if that doesn't work the next step is getting a sample tested before taking him in. He is really stressed at the vets and becomes aggressive he would need to be sedated to even get looked at


I do feel for you. It must be a nightmare to have a cat so stressed by having to visit the vets. Stress can definitely contribute to IBD . Have you tried him with Feliway spray, Pet Remedy spray or the Beaphar calm spot on?.I wonder whether one of these might help to relax him if you need to take him to the vets.

I think that you are right to give the diet a while longer. I've seen recommendations of anything up to 12 weeks to get the full benefits of a diet change. I think that I made a mistake in not continuing with some diets for longer. I gave up once symptoms worsened whereas I now believe that I should have continued for longer.



lancelot's mum said:


> But thanks for the advise I am certainly not dismissing his symptoms but at the moment it does seem to be improving


I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were dismissing symptoms. I was just trying to warn you how symptoms worsen if not got under control quickly.

I hope that your boy continues to improve. Is his name Lancelot? If so , he sounds a very handsome , gallant chap.


----------



## lancelot's mum

Forester said:


> I do feel for you. It must be a nightmare to have a cat so stressed by having to visit the vets. Stress can definitely contribute to IBD . Have you tried him with Feliway spray, Pet Remedy spray or the Beaphar calm spot on?.I wonder whether one of these might help to relax him if you need to take him to the vets.
> 
> I think that you are right to give the diet a while longer. I've seen recommendations of anything up to 12 weeks to get the full benefits of a diet change. I think that I made a mistake in not continuing with some diets for longer. I gave up once symptoms worsened whereas I now believe that I should have continued for longer.
> 
> I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were dismissing symptoms. I was just trying to warn you how symptoms worsen if not got under control quickly.
> 
> I hope that your boy continues to improve. Is his name Lancelot? If so , he sounds a very handsome , gallant chap.


Yes it is I love him but he has caused me a lot of stress I use feli way it doesn't seem to make much difference. He is normally a a very friendly cat is is easily spooked and prone to stress. The vet said it can take a while to improve and it could be something he gets on and off for a while I am keeping a record and happier now the runny tum has gone. He isn't in pain and let's me feel his abdomen and bum. I am pretty sure it started after he ate some leaves off a house plant.

As soon as I get paid I am getting the probiotics as suggested before taking the next step.

Of course if it get worse I will of course take him in x


----------



## nicolaa123

Forester said:


> @lancelot's mum, please don't dismiss any symptoms your cat may have because he seems otherwise well. I feel that it is imperative that you get his condition under control at the earliest opportunity. Sadly ,the longer your cat has any inflammation in his digestive system the longer it will take to come under control. I speak from, unfortunate , experience.
> 
> My cat is a vomiter. This indicates only that the inflammation in his digestive system occurs further forward than that of a cat who suffers from dire rear. We have been through hypoallergenic diets ( which initially helped), novel protein diets, blood tests, poo tests, endoscopy with biopsies, steroids, antacids, antibiotics and ultrasound and all the time he has been gradually deteriorating. In addition , numerous vets have been unable to make a diagnosis which they are confident with. In your position I would persevere with the diet but also get any tests done as soon as you can. Please don't ignore the blood. It is an indication that something is wrong.
> 
> I have just started my boy on an extreme, hydrolysed, dry, diet despite having previously said that I would not allow him to have such food. I am in this position because we have not previously been able to get his vomiting under control. My boy seemed otherwise well and I repeatedly thought that I would soon identify and eliminate whatever was causing the vomiting. My boy is now booked in for a repeat ultrasound in the hope that the vets might finally be able to make a diagnosis. Without a proper diagnosis they are not prepared to prescribe drugs used to treat IBD which could have adverse side effects. If no diagnosis can be made we will be having full thickness biopsies from his intestinal tract . This is a risky and highly invasive procedure but we are in a position where we no longer have any alternative .Please ,don't let this happen to your boy.


I would not be happy with a vet that said they were not happy to prescribe meds for ibd with out invaisve operation.

Riley did not have them and on ultra scan clinic ops etc no full thickness biopsy he from the input of Davies he went on to the meds that saves his life.

Surely they can see from what he has already has done to medicate??

With ibd I do think that a vet referral is needed in the more complex cases.

Cats tolerate immunosuppressive drugs more than steroids


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> I would not be happy with a vet that said they were not happy to prescribe meds for ibd with out invaisve operation.


My understanding of the problem with Dylan is that tests have not produced a diagnosis of IBD. The specialist who did the ultrasound ( she works for several referral vets ) has indicated that it is _possible_ that Dylan may have IBD but that his u/s results did not show the main feature of IBD. My vet practice will not prescribe immunosuppressants to a cat who has not been diagnosed with IBD.

The reason we are having a repeat ultrasound is to determine whether the Specialist is now able to make a diagnosis. We currently don't have a diagnosis.


----------



## nicolaa123

Riley has not had an absolute diagnosis of ibd the tests have ruled out other conditions and we are 99.9 % likely ibd hence why we started treatment and how he is much better than his lowest time.

It's your choice but I would not be happy


----------



## nicolaa123

From memory and will check my notes but Riley's ultra scans were not that remarkable but based on his history and his clinical obs and the other tests we treated for ibd as it was likely he has it and he does have it and now for the best part under control.

I urge you not to wait to long as Dylan has had this now for while now


----------



## Forester

lancelot's mum said:


> Yes it is I love him but he has caused me a lot of stress I use feli way it doesn't seem to make much difference. He is normally a a very friendly cat is is easily spooked and prone to stress. The vet said it can take a while to improve and it could be something he gets on and off for a while I am keeping a record and happier now the runny tum has gone. He isn't in pain and let's me feel his abdomen and bum. I am pretty sure it started after he ate some leaves off a house plant.
> 
> As soon as I get paid I am getting the probiotics as suggested before taking the next step.
> 
> Of course if it get worse I will of course take him in x


Fingers crossed that Lancelot continues to improve. Please let us know how he goes on.


----------



## nicolaa123

A likely diagnosis of ibd is sometimes the closest you will get.

If your vet won't treat then if it was me I would be at another vets.

Riley has a new vet has his vet moved away and she is great as she works with me and he has his liver issues right now which is not manageable with meds as they made his ibd worse and she is really supportive and listens and understood when I took him off the meds as she knows I know my cat.

My point you have to get a vet that can work with you and will try to resolve it with you.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> From memory and will check my notes but Riley's ultra scans were not that remarkable but based on his history and his clinical obs and the other tests we treated for ibd as it was likely he has it and he does have it and now for the best part under control.
> 
> I urge you not to wait to long as Dylan has had this now for while now


We have no choice. If there is no diagnosis after this ultrasound we will have the biopsies. After the previous u/s the Specialist stated that the only way to determine the significance of the u/s findings was through FTB's. We cannot wait any longer for a diagnosis.


----------



## nicolaa123

Surely you can ask to try drugs that treat ibd??


----------



## nicolaa123

Is it not worth a try before the full thickness op?


----------



## nicolaa123

Sorry but I don't understand your vets stance that it's likely to be ibd but they won't even try to treat with out the biopsies..??

I would be trying another vet.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> A likely diagnosis of ibd is sometimes the closest you will get.
> 
> My point you have to get a vet that can work with you and will try to resolve it with you.


At the moment we don't have a " likely IBD " diagnosis. We have " possible ( but not probable) IBD ".

The specialist was unable to make a diagnosis . The changes shown on the ultrasound could indicate IBD but could also be down to normal variation. This position would have been the same whether she did the u/s at my vets or at one of the referral centres she works at.

I took Dylan to a different practice a few months back. After studying Dylan's notes , looking at the test results and examining him, the vet felt that there was nothing physically wrong. He initially said that it was a psychogenic problem. By the time I decided to return to my original practice, the best in the area, he had changed his mind and said that he was concerned.


----------



## Forester

nicolaa123 said:


> Surely you can ask to try drugs that treat ibd??


I asked but they won't prescribe anything other than the drugs we've tried without a diagnosis of " likely IBD". At present we don't have that. The changes which appeared on Dylan's ultrasound could apparently be due to " normal variation".

We're having the repeat ultrasound in an attempt to avoid the FTB's. We will only do the FTB's if we still don't have a diagnosis. We can't wait any longer to find out what is wrong.


----------



## nicolaa123

It is your choice at the end of the day possible or probable if it was me I would try meds before an invasive operation. But it's your choice, have you had a referral to a specialist ink so you say about the ultra scan person but have you had a referral?

If not that is where I would start and I know it's hard with your family situation but you would need to try and find a way to have this to help Dylan


----------



## nicolaa123

I 


Forester said:


> I asked but they won't prescribe anything other than the drugs we've tried without a diagnosis of " likely IBD". At present we don't have that. The changes which appeared on Dylan's ultrasound could apparently be due to " normal variation".
> 
> We're having the repeat ultrasound in an attempt to avoid the FTB's. We will only do the FTB's if we still don't have a diagnosis. We can't wait any longer to find out what is wrong.


I would not be happy with that but it's your choice as to whether you accept it


----------



## cassie12

moggie14 said:


> I know that Metacam is a very effective drug and can be great for dogs....
> 
> However, my previous cat Maddy was hit by a car and on cage rest and Metacam for 4 weeks...
> 2 years later her kidneys crashed and she had CRF for a couple of years before it took her :sad:
> *I have no definitive proof that Metacam caused her kidneys to fail but at 13 years old with no other health issues I personally think Metacam was the reason*.
> Even after CRF diagnosis a junior vet tried to prescribe her Metacam for cystitis, I wasn't having any of it
> So what I think I am trying to say is that yes, I believe Metacam is dangerous for long term use in cats from my own experience


I would say that in our recent experience with our cat & metacam that it was Metacam that did the damage to your cat, you have only got to do a search on google & ask the question about Metacam & cats there are 1000's of complaints !
The drug company are trying to cover all this up for obvious reasons, so if you come across any info supporting metacam & cats you can bet your life it will be something to do with the drug company.

Quote: Blue Ribbon Campaign
*Metacam Kills So Why Do Vets Continue To Prescribe It*

*Read about Gypsy's Metacam Story - CANADA*

Another child lost due to the incompetence of a vet. I have not included it in my vet alert stories because it took place in Canada. Our elected officials are concerned with issues concerning the USA. However I feel that it deserves to be told as a warning.

*"I write this in memory of my cat Gypsy, who died needlessly after treatment for a minor injury."*
She suffered acute kidney failure following "Metacam" oral dosing.

I have tremendous guilt not having researched this drug thoroughly before its administration. If publishing this editorial can save the lives of other cats, Gypsy's death will not have been in vain..

Metacam (Meloxicam) is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory for dogs, farm animals and cats.

Cats are approved for a one-time subcutaneous injection only (no oral dosing).

An FDA study (Adverse Drug Experience Report 2006) shows approximately a 32% acute kidney failure in cats that are orally dosed. Other side effects are: vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, decreased appetite and depression.

The drug company Boehringer Ingelheim is not responsible for misuse. The cat package insert (which I did not receive) states:

Cats: a single one-time subcutaneous dose, NOT to be followed by a second dose of Metacam or any other NSAIDs. (Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory) Metacam has a very Low Safety Margin, meaning there is little difference between a safe dose and one that is toxic. Small animals are particularly vulnerable, especially cats who are very sensitive to drugs. Oral dosing is very dangerous!

There are few drugs available for cats, so I do empathize with the drug choice dilemma. Nevertheless, the veterinarian must have comprehensive and current data regarding the drugs they choose to use, weighing the risks and benefits.

The problem starts with "Off-label Use" a practice in both human and veterinary medicine. The practitioner prescribes drugs for a purpose outside the scope of the drug's approved label, however prescribing against "specific label directions" puts them on a very slippery slope. This is especially true with no informed consent!

Be your pet's advocate and ask:

1. Are my cat's liver and kidney blood tests acceptable?

2. May I have copies of the drug product sheets?

3. What are serious side effects of this drug?

4. My pet weighs less than 10 lbs…is this safe?

5. Is this drug FDA approved? If not…why?

6. What other drugs are approved?

7. Do the benefits outweigh the risks?

Metacam is justifiably not approved in Canada or the USA for oral dosing of cats.

Gypsy was privately cremated June 16, 2008 at Hazelwood Acres, Thunder Bay.

Submitted by: A. Bishop

Background: Metacam & Cats

*why do Vets continue to prescribe Metacam ...answer: The drug company/supplier & the Vets are in the same bed.


Stories from the Victims....they just keep coming(updated 1/04/2014)

P.B.'s Story

Darryl's Story 
Fozzie's Story

Hesha's Story

Shadow's Story

Jills's Story Darren's Story
Tiger's Story Tony's Story Kerry's Story Hatte's Story Zabine's Story Stewie's Story Carolyn's Story
Cornelia's Story Missy's Story Georgie's Story Anthony's Story Kim's Story Zoey's Story Anonymous Story
Christine's Story Kiki's Story Killarney's Story Nickii's Story Katie's Story Andrew's Story Bonnie's Story
Howie's Story Shadow(2)'s Story Latte's Story Diane's Story Frankie's Story Tiger's Story Rebekah's Story
Tracie's Story Millie's Story Becky's Story Simon's Story Kayla's Story Lilly's Story Gypsy's Story
C.B.'s Story Gary's Story Chloe's Story Mitten's Story Tibb's Story Sophia's Story Cyril's Story
Maria's Story Melvyn's Story Larry's Story Nellie's Story Lucky's Story Linda's Story Topaz's Story
Pepsi's Story

Buster's Story

Glenn's Story

Leo's Story

Morgan's Story

Lori's Story

Marshmallow's Story

Patch's Story

Rigsby's Story

Misty's Story

John's Story

Ms. P's Story

Ellen's Story

Amy's Story

Molly's Story

Jax's Story

Thomas' Story

Sterling's Story

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Spooky's Story

Rocky's Story4/6/09

Sasha's Story4/6/09

Jennifer's Story4/6/09

Chippy's Story4/6/09

Happy Cat & Jabernaut's Story4/8/09

Creeky's Story5/11/09

Luna's Story5/11/09

Sidney's Story6/3/09

Tito's Story6/9/09

Mookie's Story6/9/09

Melanie's Story7/6/2009

Rascal's Story10/12/09

Tiny's Story10/12/09

Caesar's Story10/12/09

Luca's Story10/12/09

Tanner's Story10/12/09

Abby's Story10/12/09

Valerie's Story10/12/09

Michael's Story10/12/09

Minnie's Story10/12/09

Tig's Story10/12/09

Godfrey's Story10/19/09

Buddy's Story10/28/09

Bailey's Story12/8/09

Ebony's Story12/8/09

Spider's Story1/5/10

Rocky's Story1/5/10

Zoe's Story1/5/10

Marilyn's Story1/5/10

Mitzi's Story1/12/10

Shorty's Story2/4/10

Cleopatra's Story2/4/10

Jane's Story4/23/10

Cathy's Story4/23/10 Chloe's Story4/23/10 Jess's Story4/23/10
Lilly's Story4/23/10 Melanie's Story4/23/10 Sammy's Story4/23/10 Sue's Story4/23/10 Ozzy's Story4/23/10 Jack's Story5/11/10 Sissy's Story5/11/2010
Shabba's Story5/11/2010 
Arthur's Story
9/29/2010

Pebble's Story
9/29/2010

Dill's Story
9/29/20

Jamie's Story
9/29/2010

Spike's Story
9/29/2010

Jennie's Story
9/29/2010

Amy's Story
9/29/2010

Jacqueline's Story
9/29/2010

Binky's Story
9/29/2010

Allie's Story9/29/2010
Lumia's Story
10/9/2010
Makana's Story
11/1/2010 
Amanda Sue's Story
11/1/2010

Elliot's Story
3/21/2011 
Ronnie's Story
3/21/2011 
Kimba's Story
3/21/2011 
Shannon's Story
3/21/2011 
Mika's Story
3/28/2011 
Limpy's Story
10/4/2011

Dawn's Story
10/4/2011

Winston's Story
10/4/2011 
Daisy's Story
10/04/2011 
Miller's Story
10/04/2011*


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Given the repeated references to the FDA, I suspect the site quoted above is American. The situation in the States is different to that in the UK, and a lot of the information on that site is incorrect when applied to the UK.

These differences are discussed in the first post of this thread, which was created to try and answer questions about Metacam in a measured way while quoting current research, on an internet riddled with scare stories.

Nobody can deny how tragic it is that some cats have suffered reactions to Metacam, and that some have lost their lives having been given it (some of whom, but not all, will have had idiosyncratic reactions to it). But I've seen it used in hundreds if not thousands of cats and have seen only one idiosyncratic reaction (that is, a previously healthy cat has suddenly entered acute renal failure having had Metacam). That cat was treated and lived, and is still alive today with good kidney function as demonstrated by blood tests.

I have seen more cats suffering with painful, untreated arthritis than I have suffer side effects from Metacam. I would not be without it for my own cats if they need it.


----------



## Satori

cassie12 said:


> I would say that in our recent experience with our cat & metacam that it was Metacam that did the damage to your cat, you have only got to do a search on google & ask the question about Metacam & cats there are 1000's of complaints !
> The drug company are trying to cover all this up for obvious reasons, so if you come across any info supporting metacam & cats you can bet your life it will be something to do with the drug company.
> 
> Quote: Blue Ribbon Campaign
> *Metacam Kills So Why Do Vets Continue To Prescribe It*
> 
> *Read about Gypsy's Metacam Story - CANADA*
> 
> Another child lost due to the incompetence of a vet. I have not included it in my vet alert stories because it took place in Canada. Our elected officials are concerned with issues concerning the USA. However I feel that it deserves to be told as a warning.
> 
> *"I write this in memory of my cat Gypsy, who died needlessly after treatment for a minor injury."*
> She suffered acute kidney failure following "Metacam" oral dosing.
> 
> I have tremendous guilt not having researched this drug thoroughly before its administration. If publishing this editorial can save the lives of other cats, Gypsy's death will not have been in vain..
> 
> Metacam (Meloxicam) is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory for dogs, farm animals and cats.
> 
> Cats are approved for a one-time subcutaneous injection only (no oral dosing).
> 
> An FDA study (Adverse Drug Experience Report 2006) shows approximately a 32% acute kidney failure in cats that are orally dosed. Other side effects are: vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, decreased appetite and depression.
> 
> The drug company Boehringer Ingelheim is not responsible for misuse. The cat package insert (which I did not receive) states:
> 
> Cats: a single one-time subcutaneous dose, NOT to be followed by a second dose of Metacam or any other NSAIDs. (Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory) Metacam has a very Low Safety Margin, meaning there is little difference between a safe dose and one that is toxic. Small animals are particularly vulnerable, especially cats who are very sensitive to drugs. Oral dosing is very dangerous!
> 
> There are few drugs available for cats, so I do empathize with the drug choice dilemma. Nevertheless, the veterinarian must have comprehensive and current data regarding the drugs they choose to use, weighing the risks and benefits.
> 
> The problem starts with "Off-label Use" a practice in both human and veterinary medicine. The practitioner prescribes drugs for a purpose outside the scope of the drug's approved label, however prescribing against "specific label directions" puts them on a very slippery slope. This is especially true with no informed consent!
> 
> Be your pet's advocate and ask:
> 
> 1. Are my cat's liver and kidney blood tests acceptable?
> 
> 2. May I have copies of the drug product sheets?
> 
> 3. What are serious side effects of this drug?
> 
> 4. My pet weighs less than 10 lbs…is this safe?
> 
> 5. Is this drug FDA approved? If not…why?
> 
> 6. What other drugs are approved?
> 
> 7. Do the benefits outweigh the risks?
> 
> Metacam is justifiably not approved in Canada or the USA for oral dosing of cats.
> 
> Gypsy was privately cremated June 16, 2008 at Hazelwood Acres, Thunder Bay.
> 
> Submitted by: A. Bishop
> 
> Background: Metacam & Cats
> 
> *why do Vets continue to prescribe Metacam ...answer: The drug company/supplier & the Vets are in the same bed.
> 
> 
> Stories from the Victims....they just keep coming(updated 1/04/2014)
> 
> P.B.'s Story
> 
> Darryl's Story
> Fozzie's Story
> 
> Hesha's Story
> 
> Shadow's Story
> 
> Jills's Story Darren's Story
> Tiger's Story Tony's Story Kerry's Story Hatte's Story Zabine's Story Stewie's Story Carolyn's Story
> Cornelia's Story Missy's Story Georgie's Story Anthony's Story Kim's Story Zoey's Story Anonymous Story
> Christine's Story Kiki's Story Killarney's Story Nickii's Story Katie's Story Andrew's Story Bonnie's Story
> Howie's Story Shadow(2)'s Story Latte's Story Diane's Story Frankie's Story Tiger's Story Rebekah's Story
> Tracie's Story Millie's Story Becky's Story Simon's Story Kayla's Story Lilly's Story Gypsy's Story
> C.B.'s Story Gary's Story Chloe's Story Mitten's Story Tibb's Story Sophia's Story Cyril's Story
> Maria's Story Melvyn's Story Larry's Story Nellie's Story Lucky's Story Linda's Story Topaz's Story
> Pepsi's Story
> 
> Buster's Story
> 
> Glenn's Story
> 
> Leo's Story
> 
> Morgan's Story
> 
> Lori's Story
> 
> Marshmallow's Story
> 
> Patch's Story
> 
> Rigsby's Story
> 
> Misty's Story
> 
> John's Story
> 
> Ms. P's Story
> 
> Ellen's Story
> 
> Amy's Story
> 
> Molly's Story
> 
> Jax's Story
> 
> Thomas' Story
> 
> Sterling's Story
> 
> Normie's Story
> 
> Spooky's Story
> 
> Rocky's Story4/6/09
> 
> Sasha's Story4/6/09
> 
> Jennifer's Story4/6/09
> 
> Chippy's Story4/6/09
> 
> Happy Cat & Jabernaut's Story4/8/09
> 
> Creeky's Story5/11/09
> 
> Luna's Story5/11/09
> 
> Sidney's Story6/3/09
> 
> Tito's Story6/9/09
> 
> Mookie's Story6/9/09
> 
> Melanie's Story7/6/2009
> 
> Rascal's Story10/12/09
> 
> Tiny's Story10/12/09
> 
> Caesar's Story10/12/09
> 
> Luca's Story10/12/09
> 
> Tanner's Story10/12/09
> 
> Abby's Story10/12/09
> 
> Valerie's Story10/12/09
> 
> Michael's Story10/12/09
> 
> Minnie's Story10/12/09
> 
> Tig's Story10/12/09
> 
> Godfrey's Story10/19/09
> 
> Buddy's Story10/28/09
> 
> Bailey's Story12/8/09
> 
> Ebony's Story12/8/09
> 
> Spider's Story1/5/10
> 
> Rocky's Story1/5/10
> 
> Zoe's Story1/5/10
> 
> Marilyn's Story1/5/10
> 
> Mitzi's Story1/12/10
> 
> Shorty's Story2/4/10
> 
> Cleopatra's Story2/4/10
> 
> Jane's Story4/23/10
> 
> Cathy's Story4/23/10 Chloe's Story4/23/10 Jess's Story4/23/10
> Lilly's Story4/23/10 Melanie's Story4/23/10 Sammy's Story4/23/10 Sue's Story4/23/10 Ozzy's Story4/23/10 Jack's Story5/11/10 Sissy's Story5/11/2010
> Shabba's Story5/11/2010
> Arthur's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Pebble's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Dill's Story
> 9/29/20
> 
> Jamie's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Spike's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Jennie's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Amy's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Jacqueline's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Binky's Story
> 9/29/2010
> 
> Allie's Story9/29/2010
> Lumia's Story
> 10/9/2010
> Makana's Story
> 11/1/2010
> Amanda Sue's Story
> 11/1/2010
> 
> Elliot's Story
> 3/21/2011
> Ronnie's Story
> 3/21/2011
> Kimba's Story
> 3/21/2011
> Shannon's Story
> 3/21/2011
> Mika's Story
> 3/28/2011
> Limpy's Story
> 10/4/2011
> 
> Dawn's Story
> 10/4/2011
> 
> Winston's Story
> 10/4/2011
> Daisy's Story
> 10/04/2011
> Miller's Story
> 10/04/2011*


Most of what you have lazily cut and pasted is irrelevant , some of it blatantly wrong and some of it potentially libellous. I find your inference that anyone providing positive information about Metacam to be under the influence of drug companies frankly, offensive. You are helping nobody with this.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Satori said:


> Most of what you have lazily cut and pasted is irrelevant , some of it blatantly wrong and some of it potentially libellous. I find your inference that anyone providing positive information about Metacam to be under the influence of drug companies frankly, offensive. You are helping nobody with this.


It is frustrating that sites like 'Metacam Kills' are still out there terrifying, rather than educating, cat owners. They do not arm cat owners with up-to-date information so that they can make informed decisions about their cat's treatment; rather, they do the opposite. They bombard them with scare stories and make them so (understandably) frightened that they cannot possibly make balanced choices.

This is one reason why I started this thread - to give the facts on Metacam and highlight the research published on its efficacy and safety in a measured fashion.

However, the poster in question has recently lost their cat, who had received Metacam, and is no doubt hurting. So go easy xx


----------



## havoc

_I have seen more cats suffering with painful, untreated arthritis than I have suffer side effects from Metacam_
Ain't that the truth. There are all sorts of dangerous drugs which do far more good than harm when used in an efficacious dose and that same dose may not be so efficacious for a very small number but that isn't a reason for the majority to suffer. There *are* contra-indications and dosage regime *does* matter but the same can be said of a great many drugs.


----------



## cassie12

Satori said:


> Most of what you have lazily cut and pasted is irrelevant , some of it blatantly wrong and some of it potentially libellous. I find your inference that anyone providing positive information about Metacam to be under the influence of drug companies frankly, offensive.
> 
> You are helping nobody with this.


Oh yes I am helping lots >>

We have this morning laid Cassie to rest in our garden,with a very nice memorial.

Regarding Vets4pets & Metacam, it was our very first visit to this practice, & I questioned this metacam medication because I had not heard of it before, at a previous vets practice they did not use this painkiller, also at the previous practice Cassie had many test including blood in 2013 & she was fine the tests all came back Normal

we have another cat "Sooty" he had teeth out at the previous practice on 2 seperate occasions with no bother, we just had to give Sooty Oxytet' for 6 days before & 6 days after the Dental Extraction, the vet gave Sooty a painkilling injection after the extraction also [i don't which kind] but Sooty recovered very quickly.
Sooty was Diagnosed & suffered from chlamydia from 3 months old & the only Meds/antibiotic that could cure the disease was _*Oxytetracycline *_ but we were warned this Antibiotic could affect his teeth, but it was a chance we had to take,the _*Oxytetracycline sorted the Chlamydia , but it did affect his second teeth hence the extractions. 
We only hope Sooty has no kidney issues, he is a black short haired moggy & also 12years old the same as Cassie was
we never allow our cats out of our home & garden, it all very secure, they cant escape, not that they have ever tried to, we live very close to a busy road so spent a lot of cash securing the garden, they cant get out & nothing can get in.*_
*Fingers crossed Sooty will go on for many more years , needless to say we have lost all confidence in Vets4pets*
_

#47 cassie12, Thursday at 1:02 PM_


----------



## cassie12

Satori said:


> Most of what you have lazily cut and pasted is irrelevant , some of it blatantly wrong and some of it potentially libellous. I find your inference that anyone providing positive information about Metacam to be under the influence of drug companies frankly, offensive.
> 
> *You are helping nobody with this.*


Oh yes I am !!!!
I have just found this forum and would like to share our recent experience regarding very poor & fatal Vet advice for our Cat Cassie.
Metacam killed our cat..
Our cat was taken to Vets4pets in Sheffield for a dental check up [she had gingivitis] & she was having trouble chewing bisquits,
The Vet told me our cat needed a couple of back teeth taking out..
trying to cut a long story short, after the extraction she was put on a weeks supply of oral liquid Metacam [without having had any blood test at all the vet never suggested doing any ]
A week later she was not recovering from the extraction nor eating very much, so I took her back to Vets4pets, the Vet had a look and basically said I will give you some more pain relief "Metacam" another weeks supply, we gave her one of the doses but because the cat was not eating & now starting to be sick/vomit I thought it was not a good idea Not to continue with the Painkiller Metacam"...but alas it was too late the damage had been done to her Kidneys, I spent over a £1000.00 to try & save her but she died in my arms 4 weeks later .
I started researching this & the Metacam & found that it was fatal for cats, specially if they have already got the onset of KF, *we were not aware of any kidney problems at all or that dental problems could cause any, but now we have found out that a cat with dental issues can lead to kidney & liver problems, we did not know this , until now, but the Vet should have known all this, & its a fact that before prescribing Metacam to a cat with dental problems it is essential Blood Tests should be done First.*
Needless to say we are devastated our Beautiful long haired cat Cassie was only just 12 years old.

Advice to anyone in Sheffield Avoid Vets4pets !!!!
*********************
We have this morning laid Cassie to rest in our garden,with a very nice memorial.

Regarding Vets4pets & Metacam, it was our very first visit to this practice, & I questioned this metacam medication because I had not heard of it before, at a previous vets practice they did not use this painkiller, also at the previous practice Cassie had many test including blood in 2013 & she was fine the tests all came back Normal

we have another cat "Sooty" he had teeth out at the previous practice on 2 seperate occasions with no bother, we just had to give Sooty Oxytet' for 6 days before & 6 days after the Dental Extraction, the vet gave Sooty a painkilling injection after the extraction also [i don't which kind] but Sooty recovered very quickly.
Sooty was Diagnosed & suffered from chlamydia from 3 months old & the only Meds/antibiotic that could cure the disease was _*Oxytetracycline *_ but we were warned this Antibiotic could affect his teeth, but it was a chance we had to take,the _*Oxytetracycline sorted the Chlamydia , but it did affect his second teeth hence the extractions. 
We only hope Sooty has no kidney issues, he is a black short haired moggy & also 12years old the same as Cassie was
we never allow our cats out of our home & garden, it all very secure, they cant escape, not that they have ever tried to, we live very close to a busy road so spent a lot of cash securing the garden, they cant get out & nothing can get in.*_
*Fingers crossed Sooty will go on for many more years , needless to say we have lost all confidence in Vets4pets*
_
#47 cassie12, Thursday at 1:02 PM_


----------



## havoc

_Given the repeated references to the FDA, I suspect the site quoted above is American. The situation in the States is different to that in the UK, and a lot of the information on that site is incorrect when applied to the UK._
It must be much more difficult to dose accurately in the US. Vets presumably have to use the dog version which is 3x the strength of the one we have available for cats so first they have to work out the correct dose for the weight of the cat, calculate the right amount of the dog version and then find some way of measuring the correct amount because the dosing syringe which comes with the medication won't work for such a small amount. That US vets go through all this to use it off label only goes to show how limited the options are for pain relief in cats.


----------



## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> Oh yes I am !!!!
> I have just found this forum and would like to share our recent experience regarding very poor & fatal Vet advice for our Cat Cassie.
> Metacam killed our cat..
> Our cat was taken to Vets4pets in Sheffield for a dental check up [*she had gingivitis*] & *she was having trouble chewing bisquits*,
> The Vet told me our cat needed a couple of back teeth taking out..


Assuming your other cat is still on biscuits, then you should be aware that biscuits are one of the significant causes of gingivitis and bad teeth in cats, same as biscuits aren't good for human teeth. They are also a significant contributory factor in kidney and urinary issues in cats, as cats are designed to get 90%+ of their water from their food, and biscuits are only 10% water. A cat on biscuits will drink _more_ water than a cat on wet food, but nowhere near enough to fully compensate, therefore leading to constant mild to mid level dehydration and potential complications that can arise from that. Grain free wet food significantly reduces both risks, raw food and the occasional chicken wing as a feline 'toothbrish' is even better for them. Prevention is definitely better than cure 



cassie12 said:


> trying to cut a long story short, after the extraction she was put on a weeks supply of oral liquid Metacam [without having had any blood test at all the vet never suggested doing any ]
> A week later she was not recovering from the extraction nor eating very much, so I took her back to Vets4pets, the Vet had a look and basically said I will give you some more pain relief "Metacam" another weeks supply, we gave her one of the doses but because the cat was not eating & now starting to be sick/vomit I thought it was not a good idea Not to continue with the Painkiller Metacam"...but alas it was too late the damage had been done to her Kidneys, I spent over a £1000.00 to try & save her but she died in my arms 4 weeks later .


My 11yo has been on Meloxidyl (Metacam by another name) for abcesses twice without having bloods done. She's now on it long term to ease her mild arthritis, and she DID have bloods done before that, and will do as often as necessary for the rest of her life. So (and I'm hoping our resident feline specialising vet Ceiling Kitty will confirm) I personally would_ not_ expect full bloods to be done before providing Metacam as a _short term_ pain relief - unless perhaps kidney issues were known about.



cassie12 said:


> I started researching this & the Metacam & found that it was fatal for cats, specially if they have already got the onset of KF, *we were not aware of any kidney problems at all or that dental problems could cause any, but now we have found out that a cat with dental issues can lead to kidney & liver problems, we did not know this , until now, but the Vet should have known all this, & its a fact that before prescribing Metacam to a cat with dental problems it is essential Blood Tests should be done First.*
> Needless to say we are devastated our Beautiful long haired cat Cassie was only just 12 years old.
> 
> Advice to anyone in Sheffield Avoid Vets4pets !!!!
> *********************
> We have this morning laid Cassie to rest in our garden,with a very nice memorial.
> 
> Regarding Vets4pets & Metacam, it was our very first visit to this practice, & I questioned this metacam medication because I had not heard of it before, at a previous vets practice they did not use this painkiller, also at the previous practice Cassie had many test including blood in 2013 & she was fine the tests all came back Normal


Metacam, Meloxidyl, Meloxicam - same thing, different trading name. Like Anadin, Neurofen etc. in human medicines. Perhaps your previous vet just used a different brand. There may be other trading names I don't know.

Anyway, I'm very sorry for your loss, but even if the Metacam was a contributing factor I personally can't see that it was mis-used or mis-prescribed in any way. A lot of the Metacam scare stories come from the USA, where vetinary things seem to be handled very differently to the UK. Plus ALL medical treatment comes with an inherent risk and potential side effects. But if Ceiling Kitty says that in all her years as a vet specialising in feline medicine she has seen very few incidents of even side effects from Metacam type drugs, then I'm going to put higher credibiity on that viewpoint rather than a website that seems to be the cat health equivalent of 'MMR causes autism' sites and is one of the reasons we need such a thread as this in the first place. And as my Charlie-girl will be on a maintenance dose for life (as I said, under constant vet supervision) and there is no alternative treatment other than let her suffer with joint pain, I have a vested interest in this debate.


----------



## cassie12

Quote: Jesthar
Assuming your other cat is still on biscuits, then you should be aware that biscuits are one of the significant causes of gingivitis and bad teeth in cats, same as biscuits aren't good for human teeth. They are also a significant contributory factor in kidney and urinary issues in cats, as cats are designed to get 90%+ of their water from their food, and biscuits are only 10% water. A cat on biscuits will drink _more_ water than a cat on wet food, but nowhere near enough to fully compensate, therefore leading to constant mild to mid level dehydration and potential complications that can arise from that. Grain free wet food significantly reduces both risks, raw food and the occasional chicken wing as a feline 'toothbrish' is even better for them. Prevention is definitely better than cure 

Reply:
Yes our other Cat Sooty is still on "Royal Canin" Biscuits, he will not eat anything else, if we try him with fresh cooked chicken, beef, etc, he just walks away , R.C. Pouches, etc, he will lick the gravy or jelly & then leave the rest, we have persisted in trying this wet food but we finish up throwing it away.
Sooty has always preferred biscuits, & R.C.Being a top brand & actually recommend their dry food to help keep teeth clean we obviously take their advice, but in any case if Sooty will not eat anything else we will not deny him is favourite food.
Fresh drinking water is always left in more than one place for him.

On Metacam I repeat I would not give it to any cat, & regarding the comments on the USA surely they are not all stupid over their, there are far too many complaints


----------



## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> Reply:
> Yes our other Cat Sooty is still on "Royal Canin" Biscuits, he will not eat anything else, if we try him with fresh cooked chicken, beef, etc, he just walks away , R.C. Pouches, etc, he will lick the gravy or jelly & then leave the rest, we have persisted in trying this wet food but we finish up throwing it away.
> Sooty has always preferred biscuits, & *R.C.Being a top brand & actually recommend their dry food to help keep teeth* clean we obviously take their advice, but in any case if Sooty will not eat anything else we will not deny him is favourite food.


Unfortunately you have been mislead by their advertising - RC may be a big brand, but they are not a _quality_ brand, and their dry food is full of grains and sugars, which cats neither need nor can digest. They just shoul louder, sponsor loads of events, and offer good percentage cuts to vets to sell their food. Dry food is awful for a cats teeth, their teeth are not designed to chew in a way that biscuits would help clean them. They just get biscuit debris all over their teeth the same as we would.

The RC wet food is also awful, full of grains, sugars and other things which are no good for cats - it is basically supermarket own brand quality with a large mark-up. If you want to continue with dry food, you should look to switch to a grain free dry food. Ideally, grain free wet food or raw food is much better for them though. Don't feel too bad about not knowing, most of us here were in the same boat before discovering how wrong we were - I certainly was!


cassie12 said:


> On Metacam I repeat I would not give it to any cat, & regarding the comments on the USA surely they are not all stupid over their, there are far too many complaints


I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe they have an oral version of Metacam licensed for cats in the USA, and as others have already pointed out the American vets will probably consider giving the dog version anyway as it is one of the only medicines of its type that is effective in cats. Here in the UK we have a specific oral version for cats, complete with measured dosing syringe appropriate for cat weights, so there is no guesswork and far more control over dosing. Perhaps if the USA followed suit with a feline specific version there would be fewer tragedies over there.


----------



## cassie12

Jesthar said:


> Unfortunately you have been mislead by their advertising - RC may be a big brand, but they are not a _quality_ brand, and their dry food is full of grains and sugars, which cats neither need nor can digest. They just shoul louder, sponsor loads of events, and offer good percentage cuts to vets to sell their food. Dry food is awful for a cats teeth, their teeth are not designed to chew in a way that biscuits would help clean them. They just get biscuit debris all over their teeth the same as we would.


Quote:Jesthar
Unfortunately you have been mislead by their advertising - RC may be a big brand, but they are not a _quality_ brand, and their dry food is full of grains and sugars, which cats neither need nor can digest. They just shoul louder, sponsor loads of events, and offer good percentage cuts to vets to sell their food. Dry food is awful for a cats teeth, their teeth are not designed to chew in a way that biscuits would help clean them. They just get biscuit debris all over their teeth the same as we would.
Reply:
Well this just goes to show how caring Vets4pets really are they promote RC & Pets at home, part of the same company have loads on display.. You have condemned RC as being rubbish , so what would you recommend ? I am always willing to learn for the sake of our Cat, we want our Sooty to have the Best !


----------



## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> Well this just goes to show how caring Vets4pets really are they promote RC & Pets at home, part of the same company have loads on display.. You have condemned RC as being rubbish , so what would you recommend ? I am always willing to learn for the sake of our Cat, we want our Sooty to have the Best !


Actually, you can't blame the vets for that one. They don't get much training on feline nutrition at vet school (less than a day), so can be as easily taken in my the sales reps as anyone else.

I would suggest you start a new thread in the Cat Heath and Nutrition section to ask questions about food and avoid dragging this tread any more off topic. I don't feed dry food aside from when travelling, when I have to use it I've gone for Applaws or Acana as they are both grain free. But my two only have wet and raw food day to day, mainly German and Swedish brands (Smilla, Animonda Carny, Grau, Bozita, MACs, Butchers Classic) for wet food as they are much better quality than most UK brands. Nutriment for the raw food, or make my own.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

cassie12 said:


> On Metacam I repeat I would not give it to any cat, & regarding the comments on the USA surely they are not all stupid over their, there are far too many complaints


Comparing the use of Metacam in the UK and the US isn't quite comparing apples and oranges - but it is comparing apples and pears.

The formulations, dosing and licensing of Metacam in the States are quite different to in this country. For a start, we have a specific cat version of Metacam; in the States, they only have the dog version.


----------



## cassie12

"Vets4 for pets" & "pets at home" one of the same company,* are only in it for one thing making as much cash as they can that's their priority as far as I am concerned & no one will convince me any other way*.
Cassie who we have just lost, unlike Sooty,she only had wet food & her favourite was fresh Cooked Chicken which she had regular, incidentally if I have not already mentioned this, our cats don't roam they kept within our property & Garden, not quite wrapped in cotton wool but nearly.
Finally I would just like to mention the first cat we had 25 years ago, she was a feral from a pet shop, not being experienced with cats at the time we just let her roam,we fed her cheap biscuits, a bit of cooked liver now & then, she brought the odd bird home half eaten, we never, ever took her to the vet for annual injections or for anything else, she never showed any signs of illness, she lived for 18 years, one day fell asleep in the garden & did not wake up, bless her , Guess we were very lucky with her* or perhaps very wise avoiding the Vet...igeon*


----------



## havoc

All vets are a business - why do you think Vets4pets should be any different? If they don't make money they won't be there because they can't pay for premises, rates, equipment etc. Why would anyone want to suggest anything different when it's plain common sense they need to make money to exist.


----------



## Matrod

I don't think it would be wise avoiding a vet at all, my two would be dead right now if I had done that. Regular vet checks, especially in older cats are very important - arthritis & dental issues being quite common. Regarding metacam, I have used it in both my cats & would continue to do so, one of mine does have kidney failure (not as a result of metacam) & I still continue to use it with her as required & as yet it has had no adverse effects on her kidneys.


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## Sh N

Apologies that this is going to be a rant, I'm a little tired of people blaming the drug and the pharma company when it is quite easily seen that the practitioner has the most responsibility here. These uninformed opinions by an individual on this thread (will not name names here) undermines a lot of everything that we in the pharma industry do to bring something lifesaving into the world- Isn't it common sense that there is always a possibility of people (and animals) having a bad reaction to something? 

In human health, the patient and practitioner work very closely to assess the safety and efficacy of the drug on an individual level- this is even after exhaustive testing and reporting- as it can take upwards of 15 years to bring a drug into the market for safe use. Even then, we have reports on allergic reactions and unwanted side effects. Not every drug is benign. There will be still some people who will react badly to drugs, and it is their responsibility to report, the practitioner's responsibility to acknowledge that it is a bad reaction and treat, and the company's responsibility to gather data and assess its significance. 

The challenge with our animals is that they cannot speak and articulate their problems. For that, practitioners have to rely on other cues, such as analyses of body fluids and previous medical history. For Metacam in particular, the US leaflets clearly mention not to give this medication to cats. If the vets have gone ahead and done that because 'everyone else does that', that falls under their sphere of responsibility, and not anyone else's- and all these stories are being published and blown out of proportion to scaremonger people and everyone is up in arms and deny their animals pain relief when they are struggling. When read our own medicine leaflets diligently- what would cause us to not read our animals' leaflets? If the vet is being dodgy, what stops us from getting a second opinion? 

Isn't this akin to people going on the MMR vaccine vs autism rant- and we have a measles outbreak now and then- and loads of conspiracy theories out there about how the pharmaceutical industry is out to get us. The reality in this world is that everyone is answerable to someone these days- to shareholders and investors- and we have to do our best to help one another under these circumstances- and not scaring one another. And also, there are unscrupulous parties everywhere- that doesn't mean that it is an industry standard to be unscrupulous. 

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but working within the industry, I feel I should do my bit to reduce this negative perception.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Sh N said:


> Apologies that this is going to be a rant, I'm a little tired of people blaming the drug and the pharma company when it is quite easily seen that the practitioner has the most responsibility here. These uninformed opinions by an individual on this thread (will not name names here) undermines a lot of everything that we in the pharma industry do to bring something lifesaving into the world- Isn't it common sense that there is always a possibility of people (and animals) having a bad reaction to something?
> 
> In human health, the patient and practitioner work very closely to assess the safety and efficacy of the drug on an individual level- this is even after exhaustive testing and reporting- as it can take upwards of 15 years to bring a drug into the market for safe use. Even then, we have reports on allergic reactions and unwanted side effects. Not every drug is benign. There will be still some people who will react badly to drugs, and it is their responsibility to report, the practitioner's responsibility to acknowledge that it is a bad reaction and treat, and the company's responsibility to gather data and assess its significance.
> 
> The challenge with our animals is that they cannot speak and articulate their problems. For that, practitioners have to rely on other cues, such as analyses of body fluids and previous medical history. For Metacam in particular, the US leaflets clearly mention not to give this medication to cats. If the vets have gone ahead and done that because 'everyone else does that', that falls under their sphere of responsibility, and not anyone else's- and all these stories are being published and blown out of proportion to scaremonger people and everyone is up in arms and deny their animals pain relief when they are struggling. When read our own medicine leaflets diligently- what would cause us to not read our animals' leaflets? If the vet is being dodgy, what stops us from getting a second opinion?
> 
> Isn't this akin to people going on the MMR vaccine vs autism rant- and we have a measles outbreak now and then- and loads of conspiracy theories out there about how the pharmaceutical industry is out to get us. The reality in this world is that everyone is answerable to someone these days- to shareholders and investors- and we have to do our best to help one another under these circumstances- and not scaring one another. And also, there are unscrupulous parties everywhere- that doesn't mean that it is an industry standard to be unscrupulous.
> 
> I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but working within the industry, I feel I should do my bit to reduce this negative perception.


I would just add that sometimes, even with all the diligence in the world, some animals just react badly because that's nature.


----------



## Sh N

Thanks a lot @Ceiling Kitty

EDIT:

and what @Ceiling Kitty says is 100% true- every single being in the planet is wired differently- and there is a modicum of risk involved when it is medication. Everyone should understand that drugs, natural or synthetic- do cause a small amount of people to react badly, and when reported, they need to have a STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT number- otherwise it would just lead to what has happened here- scaremongering.


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## havoc

I do have some understanding of how an owner must feel in this situation. To 'research' something after the event and come across all these stories must hit hard. I wish they were reported better, exact prescribed dosage stated, guarantees that owners dosed exactly as instructed and within manufacturer's guidelines. I'm a fan of anecdotal evidence, I've been breeding for long enough to know that anecdotal evidence can lead to studies which do prove what we've all known all along. With these Metacam scare stories however we don't have anecdotal evidence so much as emotional ranting. Understandable but not useful.


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## QOTN

For every person who feels the need to publish their story and actively seek to adversely influence others because their cat has reacted so badly to anything (in this case, Metacam,) there will be many more who feel no need to protest because their cat's suffering has been relieved by the same medication. (They are the silent majority.) Certainly the dose of Metacam needs to be carefully controlled or there can be side effects but, as has already been stated this is true of any drug. As always the vet will balance benefit with risk.


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## cassie12

Sh N said:


> Thanks a lot @Ceiling Kitty
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> and what @Ceiling Kitty says is 100% true- every single being in the planet is wired differently- and there is a modicum of risk involved when it is medication. Everyone should understand that drugs, natural or synthetic- do cause a small amount of people to react badly, and when reported, they need to have a STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT number- otherwise it would just lead to what has happened here- scaremongering.


Reply:
This Forum like all forums is to allow people to exchange opinions & stories & hopefully warn others of any possible dangers, that's what I have intended here !!!!!!!!!
scaremongering I dont think so, WARNING is the word.
Neglegent Vets & Metacam Kills Cats End Of, if you lot want to take the chance with this dangerous drug in the Wrong hands<> meaning incompetent Vets, then get on with it,
I personally would only give Metacam to Rat in order to get rid of it....

over & out !


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## Ceiling Kitty

I hope you are able to find some peace @cassie12 xxx


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## Martinaalyce

Thank you Ceiling Kitty for starting this thread. I know all drugs carry risk so it's good to have an informed choice. It's a shame it went a bit off track at one point but I understand it's an emotive subject and I feel for anyone who has lost their kitty whatever the reason. 

I just thought I'd put my experience down.

I am starting my 15 year old kitty Portia on Loxicom today for her arthritis. She was originally prescribed Tramadol but it's to trippy for her system so hence the change. 

My other cat, Sephy (Portia's sister) was on Metacam (same thing) for a couple of years to ease her arthritis too. Unfortunately we lost her last year but I have no regrets. I don't know if it was the metacam that led to her demise as she passed very suddenly. We think it was a stroke. However, whatever the cause, I know the metacam eased her pain whilst she was on it so I am confident I did my best to see that she had a decent quality of life. We always dosed according to vets instructions, made sure she ate wet food and was suitably hydrated and had regular blood tests to check her organ functions. 

If Portia's pain is eased in the same way as Sephy's was then I know I've done the right thing. If it doesn't ease her pain then we will explore alternatives. That's what we do when our pets can't speak for themselves. 

I miss my Sephy like mad but, as I said, I have no regrets and will do what I feel is the best to keep Portia pain free. At this moment in time, loxicom seems the best option. 

I hope others find solutions that fit their situations too. Love to all you kitties out there xxxxxx


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## cassie12

The article above by "Harvey" is very informative, but its a bit of a contradiction in parts ><
Quote:* Oral Metacam
This may given as a course of a few days following an initial injection, or as a long-term medication for cats with ongoing pain caused by arthritis. It can be used indefinitely. Only the cat version should be used, never the dog version. The syrup is given once a day with food (either mixed with the meal or syringed into the mouth on a full stomach). *
How is this above possible when a *cat is not eating* ? & the vets treating Cassie obviously knew she was ill, being sick, not eating & so she must have had a empty stomach, & then after Cassie had, had a weeks supply of metacam they prescribed more..


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## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> The article above by "Harvey" is very informative, but its a bit of a contradiction in parts ><
> Quote:* Oral Metacam
> This may given as a course of a few days following an initial injection, or as a long-term medication for cats with ongoing pain caused by arthritis. It can be used indefinitely. Only the cat version should be used, never the dog version. The syrup is given once a day with food (either mixed with the meal or syringed into the mouth on a full stomach). *
> How is this above possible when a *cat is not eating* ? & the vets treating Cassie obviously knew she was ill, being sick, not eating & so she must have had a empty stomach, & then after Cassie had, had a weeks supply of metacam they prescribed more..


That wasn't by 'Harvey' that was by Ceiling Kitty - who is a feline specialising vet. 

If a cat is not eating normally, there are options an owner has. You can syringe feed with wet food (I have done this with both my girls when they had a vomiting bug and off their food), it is not hard. Or you can refrain from giving the medication until you have seen your cat eat - that way if they throw up, the Metacam comes back up too. Or if the cat is refusing to eat anything for more than around a day and a half, or is throwing everything back up, they should be taken back to the vet urgently for further advice and treatment/potential admission, as not eating for that length of time can cause internal organ damage. That's what I did with my other cat when she had the vomiting bug when she couldn't keep anything down for over 24 hours. She ended up being admitted for overnight vet nurse care and a drip.

I give my Charlie-girl her maintenance dose in the morning with her breakfast, syringed directly into the mouth. That way I know both that she has had the correct dose and that she has food in her stomach.


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## cassie12

We fed Cassie by Syringe for 4 weeks but at that point it was too late as the damage by Metacam had already been done, our own decision to feed by syringe, No Advice about doing this from the Vet

_"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, ...is like administering medicine to the dead"_
- Thomas Paine

Go To hell !!!!
Lisa


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## MilleD

I'm sorry for your loss Lisa, but Metacam certainly does work for some cats. My 11 year old is booked in tomorrow to pick up another 3 months course. She has been on it for approx. 18 months, gets bloods done every 3 to check all is ok.

She is a different cat on it. I tried other options but have always come back to Metacam as it's the only thing that seems to ease her pain. She pulls her fur out on her legs when she doesn't take it.

However, I weigh her every week to ensure the cat specific dosage I give her is spot on. So it does work for a lot of cats, it's just that you have to be careful and keep checking them for any health change.


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## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> We fed Cassie by Syringe for 4 weeks but at that point it was too late as the damage by Metacam had already been done, our own decision to feed by syringe, No Advice about doing this from the Vet


Mine weren't on Meloxidyl when I was syringe feeding, that was another incident entirely. Apologies if I was unclear about that. Anti-sickness and appetie stimulants were the order of the day. I spoke to experienced cat friends and researched on the internet prior to the vet visit so I knew syringe feeding was an option; all I had to do was ask the vet for a suitable syringe and acquire some suitable food. 

Knowing that Metacam derivatives must be given with food, though, I now always have a syringe in the house in case it's needed, given that I'm dosing daily. 


cassie12 said:


> *"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, ...is like administering medicine to the dead"
> - Thomas Paine*
> 
> Go To hell !!!!
> Lisa


That's my _forum signature_, hon - it appears automatically after _all_ my posts...


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## moggie14

Whilst I understand you are angry I do believe using that energy to file your complaint with the vet and follow it up is a better way to direct your emotions rather than being rude to other forum members.


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## Ceiling Kitty

cassie12 said:


> The article above by "Harvey" is very informative, but its a bit of a contradiction in parts ><
> Quote:* Oral Metacam
> This may given as a course of a few days following an initial injection, or as a long-term medication for cats with ongoing pain caused by arthritis. It can be used indefinitely. Only the cat version should be used, never the dog version. The syrup is given once a day with food (either mixed with the meal or syringed into the mouth on a full stomach). *
> How is this above possible when a *cat is not eating* ? & the vets treating Cassie obviously knew she was ill, being sick, not eating & so she must have had a empty stomach, & then after Cassie had, had a weeks supply of metacam they prescribed more..


I have never said that a cat should receive Metacam if they are not eating, nor would I expect anyone to give it under the circumstances. Oral Metacam should be given on a full stomach.

I hope you have spoken to the veterinary practice where Cassie was seen. If you haven't then you definitely should - but do remain calm and civil when you do or you will incite people to be defensive, and all chance of useful communication will be lost.

We can all see that you are angry and devastated, and understandably so. But we cannot give you the answers you are looking for regarding the ins and outs of Cassie's treatment. All I can do is give you the facts of Metacam use in cats (based on manufacturer's guidelines and current research), but to speculate on why your vet did or didn't do certain things would not be useful, not would it be fair on anyone.

I hope you understand.


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## QOTN

The instructions that come with the medication state very clearly that it must be given with food.


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## cassie12

Hi Again
I have made all my concerns to practice & the head office for Vets4pets in a polite but firm way, but the practice Vet who initiated Cassies treatment is denying any neglect..i repeat the Vet did not ever mention that Metacam should be only given on a full stomach, I was told just to squirt it her mouth, [I made sure the dose was spot on each time], at the time we had finished the first weeks supply of Metacam & the 2nd weeks supply was recommended & given to me due to Cassie not recovering much & not eating the Vet knew that Cassie was obviously still very ill & not eating & also being sick.

I am now waiting for a further reply from both departments, the practice & head office.


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## MilleD

cassie12 said:


> Hi Again
> I have made all my concerns to practice & the head office for Vets4pets in a polite but firm way, but the practice Vet who initiated Cassies treatment is denying any neglect..i repeat the Vet did not ever mention that Metacam should be only given on a full stomach, I was told just to squirt it her mouth, [I made sure the dose was spot on each time], at the time we had finished the first weeks supply of Metacam & the 2nd weeks supply was recommended & given to me due to Cassie not recovering much & not eating the Vet knew that Cassie was obviously still very ill & not eating & also being sick.
> 
> I am now waiting for a further reply from both departments, the practice & head office.


You may find they just say you 'should have read the instructions' so you may have to push hard to get anywhere.


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## Ceiling Kitty

cassie12 said:


> Hi Again
> I have made all my concerns to practice & the head office for Vets4pets in a polite but firm way, but the practice Vet who initiated Cassies treatment is denying any neglect..i repeat the Vet did not ever mention that Metacam should be only given on a full stomach, I was told just to squirt it her mouth, [I made sure the dose was spot on each time], at the time we had finished the first weeks supply of Metacam & the 2nd weeks supply was recommended & given to me due to Cassie not recovering much & not eating the Vet knew that Cassie was obviously still very ill & not eating & also being sick.
> 
> I am now waiting for a further reply from both departments, the practice & head office.


Well done for speaking to them.

It's a tricky one, because the instructions that come in the box do state it must be given with food and technically it is your responsibility to have read them. However, IMO it's reasonable to expect a member of staff to mention this verbally as well.

I always mention it verbally and explain why it must be given with food when discussing the potential side effects. I also print on the label that it should be given with food.

Do you still have the Metacam? What does the printed label say?


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## Halfpenny

Older cats are prone to kidney disease, so using something like metacam can aggravate that.
Personally I would use it short term for a younger cat who has been spayed ( for example) or as palliative care ( at this point quality is more important than quantity).
Apparently approximately 70% of cats over 12 have arthritis, while blood tests only show kidney failure after about 70% function has been lost ( although a new test is more sensitive) so it's a risk ( in my opinion) to use metacam as a chronic pain treatment.
I have had great success using acupuncture and cartrophen injections to keep my cats comfortable. I try to avoid using steroid injections too.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Halfpenny said:


> Apparently approximately 70% of cats over 12 have arthritis.


I'd say closer to 100%. Obviously they are all affected to different degrees.


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## cassie12

Hi again

I was told by the vet [ & it was also on the label] to give 1mil each day by syringe into her mouth, no indication what time of day, so not knowing this we gave it to Cassie in the morning.

My main points here are, the Vet must have known that Cassie could possibly have some KD because of her gingivitis [something we did not know until now] the Vet also knew that Cassie was not recovering from the dental & was not eating ,but still prescribed another course of Metacam, & no blood test were mentioned, until it was too late.

I have had a reply from Vets4pets/pets at home head office & they are not prepared to take any action against the practice, No surprises there , we are furious !

Thanks to all for the info


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## QOTN

cassie12 said:


> I was told by the vet [ &* it was also on the label*] to give 1mil each day by syringe into her mouth, no indication what time of day,


If you are saying that the practice gave you the Metacam decanted into a different container instead of the original bottle and packaging, I do know the manufacturers would not be happy with that.


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## cassie12

QOTN said:


> If you are saying that the practice gave you the Metacam decanted into a different container instead of the original bottle and packaging, I do know the manufacturers would not be happy with that.


The Metacam was in the original bottle but had a label stuck over it by the Vet with the dose to give 1mil


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## Ceiling Kitty

cassie12 said:


> I was told by the vet [ & it was also on the label] to give 1mil each day by syringe into her mouth, no indication what time of day, so not knowing this we gave it to Cassie in the morning.


Was it 1 ml, or 1 unit? This is a very important distinction. Triple check this.

It doesn't matter what time of day Metacam is given, as long as it's not on an empty stomach.



cassie12 said:


> My main points here are, the Vet must have known that Cassie could possibly have some KD because of her gingivitis [something we did not know until now]


I don't agree with that. While oral disease can predispose and contribute to kidney disease, it's not a given that cats with these conditions have CKD. I've seen hundreds of cats with gingivitis but perfectly healthy kidneys. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the vet to have made this link.

One could argue that any older cat could potentially have CKD simply because it's more prevalent in senior cats.



cassie12 said:


> the Vet also knew that Cassie was not recovering from the dental & was not eating ,but still prescribed another course of Metacam


If you told the vet that she hadn't been eating, and if the vet specifically gave instructions to continue with it on an empty stomach, this makes a complaint understandable. This is why it's so important to know exactly what the label on the medication says.



cassie12 said:


> no blood test were mentioned, until it was too late.


It might be worth asking for a copy of the consent form you signed for the dental procedure to ensure there was no discussion of bloodwork on that.


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## QOTN

Whenever I have been prescribed Metacam since the cat version became available, the box has contained a syringe marked in weights not mls.


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## MilleD

Yes, it does. A 15ml bottle lasts me 30 days and my cat is 5.1 kilos. Therefore a 1ml dose would be for a 10 kilo cat. So unless this car was massive, isn't it overdosing?


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## MilleD

Cat, not car. Ruddy mobile...


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## cassie12

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Was it 1 ml, or 1 unit? This is a very important distinction. Triple check this.
> 
> It doesn't matter what time of day Metacam is given, as long as it's not on an empty stomach.
> 
> I don't agree with that. While oral disease can predispose and contribute to kidney disease, it's not a given that cats with these conditions have CKD. I've seen hundreds of cats with gingivitis but perfectly healthy kidneys. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the vet to have made this link.
> 
> One could argue that any older cat could potentially have CKD simply because it's more prevalent in senior cats.
> 
> If you told the vet that she hadn't been eating, and if the vet specifically gave instructions to continue with it on an empty stomach, this makes a complaint understandable. This is why it's so important to know exactly what the label on the medication says.
> 
> It might be worth asking for a copy of the consent form you signed for the dental procedure to ensure there was no discussion of bloodwork on that.


Cassie's weight was 5.6 kilos , the syringe was in the box & the dose was the 1st level, I am sure it was 1 mil.

I am going top request the consent form & I will double check the dose


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## MilleD

If the dose was at number 1 on the syringe specific to metacam it would be the amount to dose a 1 kilo cat. The numbers relate to the cats weight, not mls.


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## moggie14

cassie12 said:


> Cassie's weight was 5.6 kilos , the syringe was in the box & the dose was the 1st level, I am sure it was 1 mil.
> 
> I am going top request the consent form & I will double check the dose


If you were administering the Metacam based on the first line on the syringe, that is a fifth of what would be a 'normal' dose for a 5kg cat. Therefore it was very, very low.
Perhaps that is why the vet recommended continuing with it? I really don't know.
I'm very sorry you didn't get the answers you wanted from the vet.


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## cassie12

This is the clinical report from Vet4pets, I did get the consent form also but that does not give any added information, it just stated procedure: "General Anaesthetic/cat Dental"

*Note:* the second lot of Metacam was prescribed on the 18th although Cassie was not eating & being sick at that point. see below

Cassie's clinical record:
04/01/16 - 1st consultation
- Convenia (cefovecin) injection 0.55ml

11/01/16 - Dental operation
- Acepromazine 0.08ml & Vetergesic (buprenorphine) 0.37ml subcutaneously as a premedication
- Propofol 2ml as anaesthetic induction agent
- Isoflorane/oxygen inhalation maintenance anaesthetic combination.
- Metacam (meloxicam) injection 0.55ml
- Metacam Oral Suspension 3ml bottle - Give upto the 5.5kg mark once daily, starting Tuesday morning for 5 days

18/01/16 - Post-op Check with Gill
- Metacam Oral Suspension 3ml bottle - Give upto the 5.3kg mark once daily for 7 days
- Convenia injection 0.54ml
20/01/16 - Post-op Check with Tom
- Royal Canin Recovery 195g Can
22/01/16 & 23/01/16
- Intravenous Fluid Therapy
25/01/16 to 29/01/16
- Continued intravenous fluid therapy
10/02/16
- Royal Canin Renal diet
15/02/16
- Ranitidine Oral Solution 28ml - Give 1ml twice daily by mouth (every 12 hours)

Cassie died 1 week later on 23/2/16.

PS>>> I have just been reading up on Cefovecin the antibiotic also used twice & the stories on the internet are the same as Metacam,
it obvious now our Cassie did not stand a chance due to these 2 dangerous Meds



*http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Cats/Just-Say-NO-To-Convenia-This-is-a-dangerous-drug/show/1865523*

*"Convenia side effects? - The Cat Site" Cefovecin / Convenia*
www.thecatsite.com › Forums › Our Feline Companions › Cat Health

30 posts - ‎20 authors
I have a newly adopted _*cat*_ - she was previously an outside _*cat*_ and I think ... *The WORST* _*side*_-_*effect*_ of _*convenia*_ is D*eath*, quite frankly. frown.gif ...


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## Ceiling Kitty

@cassie12

Lisa, I promise you, Convenia and Metacam are perfectly safe drugs if used appropriately. This doesn't mean that side effects and adverse reactions won't occur with these drugs (absolutely any medication can cause side effects, or allergic reactions in susceptible individuals).

I understand that it's tempting to Google these things, and that you have a need to research them as an advocate for Cassie. But I would say you must try to look at the information on the World Wide Web with a detached and critical eye. Consider the following:

1. People whose cats have had reactions or sadly passed away after receiving drug X will be justifiably distraught, angry, confused, afraid. They may take to the internet to tell their story, and then pages or sites like the ones you have found are born. Meanwhile, there might be 10, 100 or 1000 people whose cats have received drug X and been just fine. Those people are not going to go on the internet and post that their cats had drug X, recovered uneventfully from their illness and are now just fine. You are only hearing a vocal minority when you search the internet; don't forget the silent majority.

2. Remember cause and correlation. When a person (not you) posts on a forum or Internet site to say their cat passed away after receiving drug X, a hefty proportion of those cats would sadly have passed away anyway. Cats who are not unwell don't get given medications. Cats who are unwell do - so always consider why that cat received drug X when making an assessment. A cat who was otherwise healthy but had a minor problem, received drug X and then died - that might get you thinking. But a cat with a serious illness, who is already very unwell, received drug X and died... it sounds like that cat died in spite of the meds, not because of them. Of course, not all drugs are suitable for cats with serious illnesses. But many are - and we have to give them something. You can't not give an ill cat medications because they're ill. We'd all be a bit stuffed if that was the case!

I put it to you that if Cassie had received, say, clindamycin instead of Convenia as her antibiotic, you could have searched clindamycin on Google and seen some horror stories for that instead.

Basically, if a drug exists, Google will turn up horror stories about it. I just searched for ibuprofen. Any of us can go into a supermarket, pick up a box for a few pence and take a couple right now. But if you Google ibuprofen, you'll find pages about how dangerous it is, how we're all going to die from taking it, and how the pharmaceutical industry is making millions from our suffering.

For example:

"_Ibuprofen really is a perfect example of this. As mentioned above, this petrochemical-derivative has been linked to significantly increased risk of heart attack and increased cardiac and all-cause mortality (when combined with aspirin), with over two dozen serious adverse health effects, including:_

_Anemia_
_DNA Damage_
_Hearing Loss_
_Hypertension_
_Influenza Mortality_
_Miscarriage"_
And:

_"Remember, 16,500 people are KILLED by "harmless" and "common" NSAIDS such as aspirin or ibuprofen every year. In development are other "newer aspirins" that may prove to ACTUALLY be more selective for COX-2 than COX-1, but in the mean time - despite claims of being "selective" - the current COX-2's such as Vioxx® (rofecoxib) or (celecoxib) are simply not selective enough, not to mention some of their potentially horrible side effects and the associated lawsuits that have been filed due to side effects such as heart attacks, stroke and blood clots."_

Do we ban ibuprofen? Do the majority of us who take it regularly for aches and pains (not me - it nails my stomach lining so I can't take it these days) need to stop taking it? I would say not. It's just putting things into perspective. The numbers quoted above (16,500 people a year die due to taking NSAIDs) are, AFAIK, true. But more people die in car accidents, so I guess you've got more chance of being injured or worse on the way to the supermarket to buy your ibuprofen than from taking it.

What I'm trying to say is, please don't start panicking about the Convenia as well. You already have a lot on your plate. If you would like some detailed info on Convenia, there is a review on this thread (post 2). I'm not a tremendous fan of it, but not because I think it's too dangerous. I just think it's overused in practice - but I do give it where appropriate and have no issue doing so. My own cat has had it and been fine.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/about-convenia.419451/


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

As for the Metacam Cassie had, it seems like the dose was accurate if she weighed around 5.5kg. Were you giving her 5.5 units on the syringe? This would be less than 1ml.

If you're unhappy with the response you've had from your vet, you can consider making a complaint to the RCVS. Have a read of the Code of Professional Conduct first. If you feel a particular point in the Code has been breached during Cassie's treatment, you can take this to the RCVS. I would encourage you to speak to the practice again first, mention what you consider the breach was, allow them another chance to respond.
http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/#

http://findavet.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/i-want-to-raise-a-concern-about-a-veterinary-surgeon/


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## MilleD

The cat I give Metacam also has a Convenia shot every three months or so.

But like Ceiling Kitty says, because I've had no issues with it, I haven't taken to the interweb to extol it's virtues.

It's human nature that we complain about things when adverse effects happen, but the majority who it does work for will generally be silent.


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## cassie12

Ceiling Kitty

Thanks for your reply & also your understanding.

When I very first visited Vets4pets with Cassies dental issue I told them Cassie had an allergic reaction to Synulox around 2 years previously at a previous practice the synulox made her sick just like these recent Meds , at that time they did all the blood test as a precaution & she was Fine , I asked them to make sure they noted the adverse reaction on Cassies records.
When Vets4pets requested Cassies Med' notes from the previous practice there was no mention of the reaction to Synulox.
Aside from that there was also the issue with the previous practice when Sooty our other cat had teeth out & they made a mess of it which had to be sorted with further dental work, again this was them that was at fault, leaving tooth root behind [I have mentioned this in detail in a earlier post somewhere so I wont go into it again]
I am sorry to have to say this but i have now lost all confidence, Sooty could do with a check-up, he's 12 y.o.a also, but I just don't trust any of the Vets around where we live & I am reluctant to search further a field, No disrespect intended to yourself & other Vets on, I am sure there are some really good around, but at the moment I wont take any more chances with our Sooty
The one cat we had some years ago "Whisky" lived to 20 y.o.a. & she never saw a vet once in all this time, how lucky was She.
Regarding the RCVS I don't think I will get very far with them, the Vet who treated Cassie is insisting she did everything right, but I know she did not, The Vet Knowing Cassie had had Gingivitis for some years She should have recommended blood test First before using any medication, Anaesthetics etc, & before doing any dental work, if then the Vet had seen any signs of KD I am sure the procedure with Medication /Anaesthetics would have been quite different, I have put this to them at length but the Vet involved is disputing all this, so its my word against Hers.
I am now totally exhausted & its making me ill so I guess I will just have to learn to live with it, but it really hurts

Thanks again to you all
Best Wishes
Lisa
xx


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## Ceiling Kitty

Whereabouts in the country are you? I might know someone near you. There are good vets out there, I promise.


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## cassie12

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Whereabouts in the country are you? I might know someone near you. There are good vets out there, I promise.


We are in South Yorkshire, Sheffield post code S12


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## Ceiling Kitty

Ah, I'm not that familiar with that neck of the woods. It might be worth posting in Cat Chat to see if any forum members from your area can recommend anyone.

PS you might want to take off the second part of your postcode, it can localise you to a particular street. Though this might not bother you!


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## cassie12

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Ah, I'm not that familiar with that neck of the woods. It might be worth posting in Cat Chat to see if any forum members from your area can recommend anyone.
> 
> PS you might want to take off the second part of your postcode, it can localise you to a particular street. Though this might not bother you!


I have done a search before but it always comes up with the same Vets in our area, some recommend & others don't, in other words Various Mixed Reviews ..
As I said previously I have No confidence left, at all... , so will avoid Vets totally, I am preying we will not have any further problems / illnesses with Sooty.. Fingers Crossed.


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## Ceiling Kitty

I hope that in time you regain your confidence in vets.


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## Louise Maule

I need some advice. My cat got hit by a car and needed major surgery so is on metacam every 24hrs. Buy i gave my cats metacam just over an hour late. Should I be worried. He seems absolutely fine but I have to move the timing's back and vet recommend every 30 mins only.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Louise Maule said:


> I need some advice. My cat got hit by a car and needed major surgery so is on metacam every 24hrs. Buy i gave my cats metacam just over an hour late. Should I be worried. He seems absolutely fine but I have to move the timing's back and vet recommend every 30 mins only.


Hi Louise.

Do I understand you that you've given your cat's regular Metacam dose an hour late today?


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## Louise Maule

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Hi Louise.
> 
> Do I understand you that you've given your cat's regular Metacam dose an hour late today?


Yes over one hour late but not early. The vet said to delay it by 30mins at a time.


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## Ceiling Kitty

I honestly wouldn't worry, but speak to your vet today if you're concerned.


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## karen_ok

We have a *4-6 year old *(not sure of exact age as we took her in as a stray) *female* cat who has had signs of an *upper respiratory infection or cat flu* ever since we got her around a year ago.

She has been tested by the vets for *feline herpes, FIV and FCV *- all came back* negative*. She is *going again tomorrow to get an x-ray *carried out to check for any damage to her nose/airways, but I doubt this will show anything up.

Her *symptoms,* worryingly, are NOT temporary or intermittent - they're* permanent.* It's also getting worse and appears to have moved into her chest over the past couple of weeks as she's been *coughing more and more*. From what I have read about these viruses - if it is just a standard cat flu, as the vets assume - they should come and go, and there should at least be periods of relief, but this does not happen and I worry that she will continue to deteriorate further.

*My problem is this:* I think the vets are calling it 'flu' basically because they have no other answer as to what it is. They *won't give her more antibiotics* because they barely helped her before (though she's only had them on 1 previous occassion). This is starting to really anger me now as there must be SOMETHING wrong with her other than just a common flu.* Should I put my foot down and demand further testing or a stronger dose of antibiotics?* Are there different types of antibiotics that could be taken? I also don't want to keep hauling her back & forth to the vets as she's quite a timid, anxious cat and it obviously frightens her a lot.

We have *tried l-lysine *supplements, which haven't helped much either. Is there anything else I can do?


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## Ceiling Kitty

Whoa, why so many bold bits? 

I'm just cooking my lunch but I'll come back and reply properly in a bit. I wouldn't be so sure on the X-rays.


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## QOTN

Are you sure your cat is having an X-ray? I had a cat who had chronic rhinitis as a result of Herpes virus as a newborn and when his nose was investigated, my vet looked up the affected nostril with a tiny camera. That showed he had extensive bone loss and that was the site of the problem.

Your vet may be reluctant to give more antibiotics without establishing the cause of the symptoms. @Ceiling Kitty will be able to tell you some of the other organisms that may be causing the problem. They would require sensitivity tests to determine the appropriate treatment.

She may also be able to suggest other possibilities.


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## stockwellcat.

Hi there,

Can I ask what symptoms your cat is displaying? 

If the vet believes that the symptoms have moved to your cats chest surely they should be doing a chest xray or considering a scan to rule out fluid build up on the chest or vital organs? Has the vet suggested this?

Which antibiotics has the bet used so far and other treatments?

Going back and forth to the vets I am afraid is part of responsible pet ownership when our cats are ill regardless if our cat likes it or not. It's like us having to go to the GP or hospital when we aren't well.


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## karen_ok

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Whoa, why so many bold bits?


:Hilarious Sorry was just trying to make it easier to scan-read - probably made it worse!! Thanks for replying.



QOTN said:


> Are you sure your cat is having an X-ray? I had a cat who had chronic rhinitis as a result of Herpes virus as a newborn and when his nose was investigated, my vet looked up the affected nostril with a tiny camera. That showed he had extensive bone loss and that was the site of the problem.


We've specifically booked her in for an x-ray of her nose/face, yes, but this is good to know. They have told us that even if the x-ray shows anything up there's probably not much they can do about it, but at this stage we just want to find the cause and this will help to (hopefully) rule out nasal damage.



QOTN said:


> @Ceiling Kitty will be able to tell you some of the other organisms that may be causing the problem. They would require sensitivity tests to determine the appropriate treatment.


This would be great info too!!



stockwellcat said:


> Can I ask what symptoms your cat is displaying?


She has orange fluid that runs out of her eyes on a daily basis and gets dark brown crusty build-up around her nose from snot which we have to help her remove sometimes. She also can't play for long because she runs out of breath - when this happens she literally just flops on to the ground and doesn't move for a full minute or so whilst she tries to get her breath back. 



stockwellcat said:


> If the vet believes that the symptoms have moved to your cats chest surely they should be doing a chest xray or considering a scan to rule out fluid build up on the chest or vital organs? Has the vet suggested this?


No they haven't suggested this but I don't think they realise the extent of her coughing/congestion. We are going to speak to them again to make sure they understand before handing her over for x-ray.



stockwellcat said:


> Which antibiotics has the bet used so far and other treatments?


Just antibiotics on one occassion. I'm not at home at the moment but will check what type when I get back!

Thanks for all the responses.


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## Louise Maule

Thank you


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## lymorelynn

Making this a sticky - thank you @Ceiling Kitty for your ever helpful posts


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## Cedar

I have been reading through this thread thinking about Leo, who was pts a week ago today. It made me realise how peaceful Leo's death was. Our lovely vet gave him a sedative first and Leo took a step and put his head against me before we laid him on his blanket on the table with his head in my hand. He didn't move at all when he had the injection into his heart. Our vet was visibly sad and after he confirmed that Leo's heart had stopped he turned round and took a deep breath to compose himself. He sent me a lovely letter afterwards and said that Leo had been one of his favourite patients. He had known Leo since we first had him as a kitten. 
I held Leo on the way home in the car and then sat holding him on the sofa while OH dug his grave. Rowan our dog sat with me and I am sure she knew. Leo looked so peaceful. It was such a hard thing to do, but I know it was the right time. It just came too early in his life. He was the youngest of the cats we have had pts. 
Cleo, the cat that I had from when I was seven, had a tumour on her kidneys when she was seventeen. My dad was a vet and he put her to sleep at home when her time had come. He sedated her first and she went peacefully. 
The two cats we had when we were first married died at 14 and 16. Rossi was pts on the operating table as he had pancreatic cancer. We found Mimi badly injured in our front garden. We live down a long private drive with hardly any cars but she probably had been hit by a car and dragged herself back as far as she could. I had to get my dad over to stay with my traumatised children and rush her to the vets. She was in terrible pain and had to be pts. She reached out and held my hand with her paw as she went to sleep and it broke my heart. All the family were in shock and it took us four years before we We're ready for another cat to come into our lives. Then we found Leo. We miss him!


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## chillminx

So sad for you @Cedar. Thinking of you. RIP gorgeous Leo and all your other lovely cats.


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## Halfpenny

I totally agree with Ceiling Kitty about the use of meds. It's always the same, people always write about the bad, never about a normal reaction.
As far as I understand it, gingivitis is common in cats, in CRF they get ulcers, not just on the gum, but tongue, throat etc, and have usually shown other symptoms before that.
My vets always ask if I require a blood test before the op, which I always do with cats over 10 or any cats I have concerns about, saying that every cat who comes here gets tested for FIV/ FELV before they leave quarantine. 
Please do not stop going to the vet, I work as a receptionist in our local vet and know that they do actually care greatly for the animals, they are not just in it for the money..... As so many people say. 
I usually get all cats over 12 a yearly blood test, when they get their booster, this way I have caught many issues including hyperthyroidism and CRF.


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## Mrs Trolley

I do not know what to do about our cat. I have a cat who is eighteen years old and has a thyroid problem. There is very often blood in her poo and she is incontinent, unfortunately this means we need to keep her in the kitchen all the time in case our children (a three year old boy and a baby girl) put their hands in her waste. She eats and drinks and is still very active, though she cannot keep her own body clean any more, there are thick clumps in her fur. We can't really interact with her as a pet though we would like to. She has medication in her ear which is supposed to help. I've grown a bit mistrustful of the vets though. They're caring people who love animals, obviously, but they're also a business. Are they just keeping her alive to sell us medicine? 

I am thinking about "that step" but would find it hard to bring up the subject with my husband. He is very attached to the cat as she brought a lot of comfort to him when he was out of work a few years ago. He seems to be totally against the idea though I know we would need to do it if she reaches the point where it's the kindest thing to do.


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## Sacrechat

I'm so sorry, but it does sound like ending your girl's suffering may be the right thing to do. I've been in your position many times and it never gets any easier. My heart goes out to you and I hope you are able to reach the right decision for all of you and that you all remain strong enough to cope with this difficult situation.


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## cassie12

Halfpenny said:


> I totally agree with Ceiling Kitty about the use of meds. It's always the same, people always write about the bad, never about a normal reaction.
> As far as I understand it, gingivitis is common in cats, in CRF they get ulcers, not just on the gum, but tongue, throat etc, and have usually shown other symptoms before that.
> My vets always ask if I require a blood test before the op, which I always do with cats over 10 or any cats I have concerns about, saying that every cat who comes here gets tested for FIV/ FELV before they leave quarantine.
> Please do not stop going to the vet, I work as a receptionist in our local vet and know that they do actually care greatly for the animals, they are not just in it for the money..... As so many people say.
> I usually get all cats over 12 a yearly blood test, when they get their booster, this way I have caught many issues including hyperthyroidism and CRF.


Talking about the Cash they charge, it will all depend on the Practice, I have done many searches for Vets4pets reviews & some say the same I do, one of their adverts is for one up front payment £99.00 & covers all annual life time injections , but a couple of posters on other forums have stated that they do this to get you to sign up with them & then they will recover the costs with other treatments they offer or on any issues that animal may have later, its a bit like the Supermarkets & their BOGOF offers, they know when you enter the store they will get you on other products you buy.
Our Sooty is now 12 yearold , but I am terrified to take him to anyVet for blood test or anything else, As mentioned in previous posts, the recent 2 visits with Cassie & Sooty to 2 different Vet Practices turned out to be a nightmare, fortunately Sooty survived his ordeal, but not going to risk it again...Sorry but I have lost faith completey


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## Ceiling Kitty

Hopefully in time you will change your mind.


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## Mrs Trolley

Thank you sacremist. I've been reading other people's accounts of their cats final days and finding it really heartbreaking. My husband is really attached to the cat and doesn't want to have her put down unless she gets a terminal illness. Most of my family (including my mum who sees our cat Jessie regularly, and my brother who looked after her before us) think we ought to take her to the vet "for the last time". My husband thinks we shouldn't because she still eats and drinks and is physically active (though she cannot keep her fur clean and it is going into clumps.)


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## Sacrechat

One of my boys had the same problems: clumping fur, incontinence, hyperthyroid. He grew weaker and weaker and became unstable on his feet. He was an old man and ate well up to the last week of his life. I wish I could have made him younger and stronger, but I had to accept it was his time.


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## PetPetPetPetPet

I don't know what to do. Maiko is bouncy and happy, she was playing with a piece of straw the other day, she purrs, she eats, she looks for treats, she washes and runs up and down but the open wound on her stomach...the vet said that if it doesn't close then she will be running around with an open wound all the time...She has medicine, I don't know what to do.


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## Sacrechat

You will know when it is the right time. Just keep monitoring her. We recently put my boy Jasper to sleep. It was one of the hardest decisions I had to make. There was nothing obviously bad like cancer to make the decision easier. He had IBD and weight loss. He was so thin towards the end and his appetite so poor we knew the end was coming. We made one appointment to have him PTS, but chickened out and cancelled it. A week later we made another appointment. During that week, we saw him weaken. He struggled to jump up. He was unsteady on his feet. We knew we had to do something.


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## Mrs Trolley

I think our cat has reached the end. She is just curled up asleep by the oven now. My husband has just dug his heels in though. I don't know what I can say to him, he won't listen. 

Just out of interest, can the thyroid medication make them hungry? Jessie does eat, but I think that might be because of her medication


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## Sacrechat

I can understand how your husband is feeling, both my husband and I found it difficult to let go. We made an appointment to have Jasper PTS a week before we finally did it, but we backed out at the last minute. I realise we were being selfish and not thinking about what was best for Jasper, but it was tearing us up inside, however, seeing him get weaker finally made both of us realise that we had to put our own feelings aside. Once we saw the light, we reluctantly and with many tears, finally let him go.

Cats with thyroid problems do have voracious appetites, however, Sash, who had thyroid issues, towards the end was not really eating anything at all. When he was eating, he was still losing weight. We could not bring the thyroid under control. I think I would wait until her appetite disappears. Plus, Sash had poop pouring out of his bottom as he lay down. It was all over his back legs. He had completely lost control of his bowels. The vet described the condition of his very clumpy, greasy coat as scary! He looked frail and would huddle up on the radiator. Whilst at the caravan, he fell off a radiator about a foot high off the floor and got one of his claws on his back right leg stuck in the grill. I had to rescue him because he was laying flat on his back unable to release his leg which was twisted. We are lucky he didn't break his leg!

Jasper wanted to eat but when faced with food found it difficult to consume. A cat cannot go more than 5 days without food before the liver is affected, plus he was losing weight rapidly. If your girl's weight loss is out of control, in spite of the fact she is eating, it is only a matter of time before her appetite will disappear, because a cat can only lose so much weight before everything starts to close down. This is what happened to Sash. When the appetite goes that is when you know they feel really unwell. Initially, Jasper would eat one day but not the next, so we never knew for certain if it was time or not. One day we were convinced he should be PTS and the next we had hope he would recover because he was eating a little, but each week he would lose a bit more weight. He also had severe diarrhoea. Sometimes it wasn't poop coming out of his bottom but water and blood. Sometimes his poop was dark brown, other times it was grey and sometimes white. He pooped about 6 times a day. He had no control over his movements and frequently stood in his poop. It was awful. His feet, bottom, tail and underbelly were frequently covered in poop. I washed him daily because he no longer cleaned himself.

My husband and I had many many conversations about whether or not it was the right time. He also said quite categorically just three weeks ago that it was not yet Jasper's time to go. It has to be a decision you both reach together. You cannot force the other person to agree with you. I would just keep talking about it and monitoring your girl's condition. Keep pointing out to him any signs of deterioration that you can see. The more he is shown that she could be suffering, the more likely it is that he will come to agree with you. This is how I managed to convince my hubby that it was Jasper's time. Although, sometimes my attempts to convince him were a little lack lustre because I didn't particularly want to let go either, but the more I saw his deterioration for myself, the more convincing I became.


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## PetPetPetPetPet

Mrs Trolley said:


> I think our cat has reached the end. She is just curled up asleep by the oven now. My husband has just dug his heels in though. I don't know what I can say to him, he won't listen.
> 
> Just out of interest, can the thyroid medication make them hungry? Jessie does eat, but I think that might be because of her medication


Have you tried showing him the poem on the first post of this thread?


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## Mrs Trolley

Poor Jasper and Sash, it does sound terrible for them both. It is good that you were able to put them out of their pain. As I say my husband does really love the cat. He would hate the thought that he had killed her when she might have had another few years of life. (Also quite a lot of people in my family, and probably in his if we asked) feel like she is a threat to the health of our children. We love Jessie but the little ones are our top priority. 

Thank you both for the advice. I'll have a look at the poem. The article on quality of life was very helpful.


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## Mrs Trolley

Just to clear something up, is it hyperthyroidism itself that makes cats hungry or the medication for it?


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## Ceiling Kitty

Mrs Trolley said:


> Just to clear something up, is it hyperthyroidism itself that makes cats hungry or the medication for it?


The disease makes them hungry, the medication should control the appetite if the dose is effective. Some cats are just greedy little toerags, but if a cat on medication for hyperthyroidism is very hungry I tend to worry in case they are not adequately controlled.


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## Mrs Trolley

Thank you. 

I just asked because my brother (he had her before but had to give her to us because of his daughter's skin complaint) used to say that she didn't eat much, just licked the sauce off her food and had a couple of biscuits. That was five years ago. She eats all her meat now so has obviously got hungrier. She has always been a very thin cat, even as a kitten. 

She has medication which goes in her ear. I don't have a lot of faith in it really.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Mrs Trolley said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I just asked because my brother (he had her before but had to give her to us because of his daughter's skin complaint) used to say that she didn't eat much, just licked the sauce off her food and had a couple of biscuits. That was five years ago. She eats all her meat now so has obviously got hungrier. She has always been a very thin cat, even as a kitten.
> 
> She has medication which goes in her ear. I don't have a lot of faith in it really.


The transdermal (ear) version has never worked well in my hands, but I know others have had a lot of success with it. It could be that her hyperthyroidism is not well controlled and she is eating better than she otherwise would because of this.

I think getting your husband to understand that just because she is eating it doesn't mean she's fine is important (though tricky, I know).


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## Debumere

Hi, my cat is 16 and has developed arthritis. Vet prescribed Metacam with no mention renal problems. I noticed she was drinking a LOT more to the point where I had to stop her because several minutes had gone by so we got a blood test and it showed signs of poor renal function. We put her on a diet (Hills) and Yumove but recently her limping has gotten worse and I am so reluctant to go back to Metacam. Her daily dose was #4 on the syringe, could I reduce it to #2 even and keep her on the renal food?


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## Mrs Trolley

Thank you. Are you a vet? 


I wish I had joined this forum in happier times that we have had with Jessie.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Mrs Trolley said:


> Thank you. Are you a vet?
> 
> I wish I had joined this forum in happier times that we have had with Jessie.


For my sins, yes.

Stick around, it's a very helpful and supportive place.


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## karen_ok

Hello again. I'm having trouble getting her to eat the Ronaxan, which the vets have advised to quarter and put into food. The clever girl is just picking it out and eating around it! We've tried a few diff foods including fresh ham and chicken but to no avail.

I just wanted to check whether it is okay to crush Ronaxan and sprinkle it over her food? Might get more into her that way. She's already missed a day's worth. :Nailbiting


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## Ceiling Kitty

Yep you can do that.


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## Mrs Trolley

I'm not anti-vets, but you know yourself it's (usually) a business and they're under pressure to say what will be most profitable for them. 

It will be difficult to tell our little boy.


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## Sacrechat

That hasn't been my experience with the vet I saw with Jasper. At my request (I wanted straight talking not hints) he told me Jasper's time had come that he had only a few weeks left to live. However, he is an employee at the practice. One of the partners does do a good impression of a money-grabbing slot machine, but I've only been to him on a couple of occasions. 

This partner expressed how he would have operated on my cat, Jake, to remove his kidney rather than do as the employee did, which was send us to a referral practice who have equipment and specialists to deal with 13 year old cats with a grade 2 heart murmur and CKD.

Apparently, he would also have operated on my cat Chino to remove all his teeth even though another vet said it was safer to send him to a specialist veterinary dentist because Chino also has CKD. It's obvious he doesn't like losing the money. 

The biggest clue of all, there have been a couple of occasions where I've ended up owing some money for tests that the receptionist was unable to find a price for and the other vets say, just pay it next time you are here, which with my lot is quite frequently. However, this partner once undercharged me and when he realised, he not only rang me but insisted I go back immediately to pay it! You could tell by his voice, he thought I was going to leave the country and he wouldn't get his £18.


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## Mrs Trolley

That's absolutely terrible. I'm sorry. 

I don't know which of our vets are a partner or employee, (how do you find out?) People do need to bear this in mind when dealing with a vet. Our vets haven't tried to get her to have an operation though, which is to their credit


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## Mrs Trolley

I'm glad you got a helpful vet for Jasper


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## Sacrechat

Well, it's common knowledge at our vets because the partners' names are on plaques next to the entrance, the employees are not. You could always ask the receptionist.


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## Mrs Trolley

Thanks


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## Ceiling Kitty

Mrs Trolley said:


> I'm not anti-vets, but you know yourself it's (usually) a business and they're under pressure to say what will be most profitable for them.


I'm sure that's true for some vets, but thankfully not for the vast majority for whom the welfare of their patients is at the forefront of their minds...


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## Ceiling Kitty

Mrs Trolley said:


> Our vets haven't tried to get her to have an operation though, which is to their credit


That depends how you look at it, given that surgery is preferable to long-term medication in hyperthyroid cats who are otherwise well enough to undergo anaesthetic. Surgery is also much cheaper in the long run, since paying out for thyroid medication for three or four years will rapidly cost six, seven, eight times more than doing the surgery (which is usually curative, unlike surgery).

Sometimes it pays to look at the bigger picture and keep an open mind in these matters, rather than assuming the worst about the people looking after your cat.

I certainly recommend surgery for hyperthyroid patients where appropriate, and you'll find that feline specialists also recommend curative treatment over indefinite meds.


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## Dianne1

My Molly was on a small dose of Metacam for many years yesterday we sadly lost her to kidney failure shes been poorly with diarrhea and losing weight for some months every time Molly was ill she was taken to the vet where they insisted she stayed on the Metacam, until last month where they diagnosed kidney failure she was only 9 , my question is are the vets responsible for not picking this up shes been back forwards to them for many months surely the signs were there, I'm devastated and blaming myself for not researching Metacam before


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## Mrs Trolley

Your right, I'm sure most people go into veterinary medicine out of a real love for animals. I've just got a bit jaundiced against our vet. Maybe surgery would have been better for Jessie when she was younger but not now.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Mrs Trolley said:


> Your right, I'm sure most people go into veterinary medicine out of a real love for animals. I've just got a bit jaundiced against our vet. Maybe surgery would have been better for Jessie when she was younger but not now.


Of course, surgery is not the right option for every patient. It sounds as though medication has been the most appropriate choice for Jessie. I just didn't want anyone to think that being offered further treatments like surgery was automatically a bad sign. Apologies if I seemed short, it was not my intention.

Have you managed to chat with your husband again?


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## Torin.

Mrs Trolley said:


> I'm not anti-vets, but you know yourself it's (usually) a business and they're under pressure to say what will be most profitable for them.


There's a vets where I live who is this sort of vet (bit of a catch-22 they've landed themselves in as the caring staff all leave due to the bad work environment). But thankfully there are many other options around so I just go to those instead. So while they do exist, they are faaaaaaar outnumbered by people who care 

[typo]


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## Mrs Trolley

He's been talking to friends who have cats about what to do. We're talking about how we would go about it if we did. Is it possible to get a vet to come out to put a cat down? I don't want her to die in the vets clinic as it's a cold uncomfortable place and then there's the long journey and putting her in the cage...


----------



## Sacrechat

I did once, sixteen years ago, have a cat PTS at home. I was charged a fortune for it and have since realised that it doesn't matter where it's done so long as I'm with my pet when it happens. Both my hubby and I kissed Jasper's head prior to the drug being administered and we both placed our hands on him as it went in so he could feel and smell us.

When we had Muffin PTS at home, his sister seemed very aware of it and it seemed to make her very nervous for weeks after. I chose never to do it at home again.

Our vet was very considerate and let us pay the bill in the office at the back and to leave through the back door, so we did not have to stand or walk through a waiting room packed with people. We were both too distraught to handle being stared at.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Yes, you can have your kitty put to sleep at home (but you may need to book a bit more in advance or be a bit more flexible with the timings), if you wish.


----------



## cassie12

Dianne1 said:


> My Molly was on a small dose of Metacam for many years yesterday we sadly lost her to kidney failure shes been poorly with diarrhea and losing weight for some months every time Molly was ill she was taken to the vet where they insisted she stayed on the Metacam, until last month where they diagnosed kidney failure she was only 9 ,* my question is are the vets responsible for not picking this up shes been back forwards to them for many months surely the signs were there*, I'm devastated and blaming myself for not researching Metacam before


I am so sorry to hear your sad story it is heart Breaking and at such a young age
Firstly what was the Metacam prescribed for initially & did the Vets ever suggest or do blood work ?
the bit I have highlighted above in Red is exactly my sentiment, but when you say you had been back forwards many times, they are not going to turn you away are they, think of how much they have charged you..
Just like our own GP's, most Vets don't take enough care [only over their wages] & that's a fact, may not all be the same, but I have certainly lost confidence altogether, as I mentioned in previous post the 2 different practices I have used have both made disastrous mistakes, & I personally have had near fatal results with neglect by the NHS.

But please try not to blame yourself you are not the expert & you are Not To Blame !, We all go to Vets for their help & advice, but unfortunately we don't always get the right advice & treatments for our precious animals..
To some up we are just a meal ticket for Vets.

Best Wishes
Lisa


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

@Dianne1 I've replied in your other thread.


----------



## Dianne1

cassie12 said:


> I am so sorry to hear your sad story it is heart Breaking and at such a young age
> Firstly what was the Metacam prescribed for initially & did the Vets ever suggest or do blood work ?
> the bit I have highlighted above in Red is exactly my sentiment, but when you say you had been back forwards many times, they are not going to turn you away are they, think of how much they have charged you..
> Just like our own GP's, most Vets don't take enough care [only over their wages] & that's a fact, may not all be the same, but I have certainly lost confidence altogether, as I mentioned in previous post the 2 different practices I have used have both made disastrous mistakes, & I personally have had near fatal results with neglect by the NHS.
> 
> But please try not to blame yourself you are not the expert & you are Not To Blame !, We all go to Vets for their help & advice, but unfortunately we don't always get the right advice & treatments for our precious animals..
> To some up we are just a meal ticket for Vets.
> 
> Best Wishes
> Lisa


Molly was diagnosed with cat flu when she was a kitten, when she was four she had to have some teeth removed due to flu virus thats when she was first put on Metacam to control the sores in her mouth, her mouth cleared up lovely within a few months I asked the vets if Molly could come off of the Metacam they said she would be on it for life to keep her mouth under control, Molly never had a blood test done until last month where they found her kidneys failing, I feel so guilty I wasn't happy with her being on the Metacam in hindsight I wished I'd pushed for her to come off of it, only last night i was looking at her medical book and it clearly shows her weight declining over the years when the Metacam started she was a healthy 4.44kg when she left us she was 3.01kg

She was a little fighter bless her and I just cant function at the moment without her I'm so angry at myself


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> @Dianne1 I've replied in your other thread.


Yes I've read it thank you for your kind words, I guess I'm trying to find reason why I lost my beautiful girl although I accept I cannot conclusively blame Metacam, but if my girls kidneys were in trouble it definitely wouldn't of helped, in answer to your question Molly didn't have any blood tests carried out until a month ago when they found her kidneys failing, all I can say is if I had the chance again with Molly the Metacam would be a complete no no, it was just me and my princess against the world now it just me


----------



## QOTN

Dianne1 said:


> Yes I've read it thank you for your kind words, I guess I'm trying to find reason why I lost my beautiful girl although I accept I cannot conclusively blame Metacam, but if my girls kidneys were in trouble it definitely wouldn't of helped, in answer to your question Molly didn't have any blood tests carried out until a month ago when they found her kidneys failing, all I can say is if I had the chance again with Molly the Metacam would be a complete no no, it was just me and my princess against the world now it just me


Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular sad story, I do hope you will not refuse to treat the illnesses of any other cat you may own. It may be that your girl would not have lived as long as she did if she had stomatitis and it had not been treated. Surely we should always deal with a cat's present suffering rather than try to guess what may or may not happen in the future.


----------



## Dianne1

QOTN said:


> Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular sad story, I do hope you will not refuse to treat the illnesses of any other cat you may own. It may be that your girl would not have lived as long as she did if she had stomatitis and it had not been treated. Surely we should always deal with a cat's present suffering rather than try to guess what may or may not happen in the future.


I would never harm a kitty trust me I would always seek help as it is Molly was my only cat & I don't see me getting another in the future, I do think errors were made with Molly but as you quite rightly pointed out every case is different, if I could change anything I would've tried to find an alternative to Metacam or demanded frequent blood tests but hindsight is a wonderful thing


----------



## QOTN

If Molly was so important in your life, in time you may need another feline companion.


----------



## Dianne1

QOTN said:


> If Molly was so important in your life, in time you may need another feline companion.


I know you mean well and I adore cats but at this point in time all I want is my Molly back & that's not possible it's all a bit raw I'm surrounded by her things that I can't bare to move


----------



## moggie14

cassie12 said:


> I am so sorry to hear your sad story it is heart Breaking and at such a young age
> Firstly what was the Metacam prescribed for initially & did the Vets ever suggest or do blood work ?
> the bit I have highlighted above in Red is exactly my sentiment, but when you say you had been back forwards many times, *they are not going to turn you away are they, think of how much they have charged you..
> Just like our own GP's, most Vets don't take enough care [only over their wages] *& that's a fact, may not all be the same, but I have certainly lost confidence altogether, as I mentioned in previous post the 2 different practices I have used have both made disastrous mistakes, & I personally have had near fatal results with neglect by the NHS.
> 
> But please try not to blame yourself you are not the expert & you are Not To Blame !, We all go to Vets for their help & advice, but unfortunately we don't always get the right advice & treatments for our precious animals..
> *To some up we are just a meal ticket for Vets.*
> 
> Best Wishes
> Lisa


You are taking this too far. I will stop reading your posts I'm afraid. Encouraging people to avoid taking their cats to the vets is not helping them, just ranting. Enough now.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

moggie14 said:


> You are taking this too far. I will stop reading your posts I'm afraid. Encouraging people to avoid taking their cats to the vets is not helping them, just ranting. Enough now.


I have to agree; Cassie12 is grieving and no doubt still upset by what has happened, but the comments are becoming too personal and I don't want to see anyone fail to seek veterinary attention for their pets. This could really do more harm than good. From a purely selfish point of view, the anti-vet sentiment is also starting to upset me.


----------



## The Wild Bunch

I'm quite alarmed by this poster actively encouraging people to keep their animals away from a vet. I know people grieve in different ways but denying an animal of medical care is neglectful at best. I'm sure if a member of her family was unwell, she wouldn't hesitate to take them to the doctor or hospital so I'm unsure why animals would be left to suffer. 

Think I'm going to bow out now


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I have to agree; Cassie12 is grieving and no doubt still upset by what has happened, but the comments are becoming too personal and I don't want to see anyone fail to seek veterinary attention for their pets. This could really do more harm than good. From a purely selfish point of view, the anti-vet sentiment is also starting to upset me.


I have to say I have no regrets taking Molly for medical attention, my only regret is not understanding certain things, I would always seek help and still would now if she was still with me a vet is a very important & much needed part of a fur baby's life


----------



## Mrs Trolley

My family think my husband is in denial about Jessie. He has been depressed about something else lately so that cannot help. We had some unusually nice weather today and Jessie went and sat outside and my husband went "see? She's enjoying the sunshine." But she wasn't stretched out and rolling in the sun, she was curled up on her hind legs and looking (to me anyway, but I could be projecting) very anxious. 
I would like her to die at home if possible. I am willing to pay for this. I know how distressing it will most


----------



## cassie12

moggie14 said:


> You are taking this too far. I will stop reading your posts I'm afraid. Encouraging people to avoid taking their cats to the vets is not helping them, just ranting. Enough now.


*Do Not Accuse Me Of Ranting !!,* *I Am Stating Exactly How I Feel, what I personally think, & also experienced*

Forums are to express different opinions & share different views, what ever they maybe.
We are gagged enough these days with so called political correctness,
If you do not like the truth in what I am saying & posting you Don't have to Read Them.

Anyone who has a Cat / Pet, that has an* "illness"* *should seek help & advice, as we all will do obviously*, whether or not they get the Correct help & advice is another thing, that all depends who is treating the animal.

I now only have Sooty & if he were showing signs of* illness* I would have to seek help again, where I would go for that i have No idea,
I am just preying he stays well for as long as possible.

Some may be relieved with this My Final Post...


----------



## jenny armour

haven't been on here for a long time. I know colitis has been mentioned on here but there is so many pages to read, I thought I would just jump in. my ragdoll oliver who is incidentally 9 today (happy birthday baby) has for some time had loose or soft poo. in the last couple of days he was passing blood and in the end it was just blood. he went to the vets on good Friday with a temperature and has been given antibiotics, powder to stop him dehydrating and canacur and hills I/d. the blood has cleared up but he still has watery poo. I know I have until Wednesday to finish the antibiotics, but I wonder if I can give him something else that will help. his records are saying it is colitis alto I cannot recollect him having tests for that he is still a little lethargic and eating but little and often, he also drinking


----------



## Dianne1

I'm sorry but theres one direct question I need to ask in relation to Molly's Metacam treatment should her bloodwork & urine of been checked before the treatment started and during the last 5 years, I desperately need to understand


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> I'm sorry but theres one direct question I need to ask in relation to Molly's Metacam treatment should her bloodwork & urine of been checked before the treatment started and during the last 5 years, I desperately need to understand


Do you mean before she became poorly, or when she was still well (apart from her mouth)?

There is no 'should' from the point of view of the manufacturers, and opinions will differ between vets. Personally I like to monitor patients on long-term medication, but it's not black and white. Sorry to be so vague.


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Do you mean before she became poorly, or when she was still well (apart from her mouth)?
> 
> There is no 'should' from the point of view of the manufacturers, and opinions will differ between vets. Personally I like to monitor patients on long-term medication, but it's not black and white. Sorry to be so vague.


Molly never had any bloodwork checked her entire life until the end although she was given Metacam every day for 5 years, suppose I wanted to know if it was normal practice to check or not check a cats bloodwork whilst on long term Metacam, I'm finding it really difficult to get past the fact that I could've had a hand in Molly's kidneys failing, its very difficult to deal with, I'm contacting the pet bereavement people tomorrow hopefully they can help


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> Molly never had any bloodwork checked her entire life until the end although she was given Metacam every day for 5 years, suppose I wanted to know if it was normal practice to check or not check a cats bloodwork whilst on long term Metacam, I'm finding it really difficult to get past the fact that I could've had a hand in Molly's kidneys failing, its very difficult to deal with, I'm contacting the pet bereavement people tomorrow hopefully they can help


Of course you didn't lovey - as a pet owner it is your responsibility to seek veterinary assistance and make decisions about their care, but only with the advice and guidance of the veterinary professionals from whom you've sought help. If, in Molly's case, bloodwork would have changed the outcome (which is not a given), then it is the responsibility of the vet to initiate the discussion and not yours.

I sometimes wonder the same about my own cat, who suffered an unexpected seizure one night a couple of years ago. I had to put him to sleep a few hours later because I could see he wasn't going to get better. I treated him for IBD and CKD and arthritis for months and months, but I had never thought he could have a brain disease. He had been a bit ill a week earlier and I still worry there is something I missed. And I'm supposed to be the one who knows vaguely what they are doing. 

It is natural to feel like we've missed something after the event, but hindsight is 20-20 (as the cliche goes) and we should put more effort into remembering all the good we know we did for our friends than any bad we *may* have done.


----------



## jenny armour

update not eating I/d and about three pieces of gastro intestinal, getting worried


----------



## jenny armour

can someone tell me what stomorgyl is used for. this is what is being prescribed for oliver?


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

Hi Jenny, I don't know anything about Stomorgyl but perhaps our friendly @Ceiling Kitty will be online soon to advise.

Sending lots of healing vibes to Oliver and belated happy birthday xxx


----------



## bluecordelia

Hi what does the vet think if he is just passing blood? 

If he has fissures which bleed when he passes poo, I would try a softer diet ie tuna in spring water. This hydrates and most cats will have a go at tuna. 

You must finish the antibiotics. Blue was given a dry diet by her vet but I soon binned it off.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

jenny armour said:


> can someone tell me what stomorgyl is used for. this is what is being prescribed for oliver?


Stormogyl is a combination of two antibiotics, once of which is metronidazole (frequently used in causes of diarrhoea).


----------



## cassie12

Dianne1 said:


> I'm sorry but theres one direct question I need to ask in relation to Molly's Metacam treatment should her bloodwork & urine of been checked before the treatment started and during the last 5 years, I desperately need to understand


Dianne.

I was not going to post anymore on this subject, after being insulted, but This post is for you & you alone Dianne

I feel so sorry for you & how you are feeling its a terrible thing to have to deal with, I am still grieving badly also.

The answer to your question above is, Yes the Vet should have strongly recommend bloodwork before the treatment & definitely before prescribing Metacam, but this was Not Your Fault...you are not the expert the Vets are supposed to be, so blame them Not Yourself.

This is from another member...http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/does-metacam-kill-cats.74374/page-2
Quote > "Daynna said: ↑
Yes definatly metacam, it was metacam on the bottle and packaging so it couldnt have been anything else.
Well, you stumped me. I have never heard of prescribing metacam so frequently in cats. Three times a week max, in every website I ahve read.

Did your vet do blood work first? *Blood work should always be done before prescribing metacam*.

Your boy is one of the lucky ones I guess, but I sure wouldn't risk giving it to him again. Ever". Unquote..


----------



## Dianne1

cassie12 said:


> Dianne.
> 
> I was not going to post anymore on this subject, after being insulted, but This post is for you & you alone Dianne
> 
> I feel so sorry for you & how you are feeling its a terrible thing to have to deal with, I am still grieving badly also.
> 
> The answer to your question above is, Yes the Vet should have strongly recommend bloodwork before the treatment & definitely before prescribing Metacam, but this was Not Your Fault...you are not the expert the Vets are supposed to be, so blame them Not Yourself.
> 
> This is from another member...http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/does-metacam-kill-cats.74374/page-2
> Quote > "Daynna said: ↑
> Yes definatly metacam, it was metacam on the bottle and packaging so it couldnt have been anything else.
> Well, you stumped me. I have never heard of prescribing metacam so frequently in cats. Three times a week max, in every website I ahve read.
> 
> Did your vet do blood work first? *Blood work should always be done before prescribing metacam*.
> 
> Your boy is one of the lucky ones I guess, but I sure wouldn't risk giving it to him again. Ever". Unquote..


Thank you Lisa its a very difficult time, its one thing losing a much loved cat though old age or natural causes its perhaps easier to deal with, I'm not saying anyones else's pain in less than mine right now whose just lost a dear friend thats clearly wrong, but I'm also trying to deal with the guilt of not protecting Molly & feeling she may have died at my hand. Perhaps I need to speak to Molly's vet to see why no bloodwork was done especially when she was so poorly with diarrhea last summer, I think that was the turning point.

I'm sorry for your loss both our babies deserved better & I'm praying we can both find some peace buts its all very painful & raw

Dianne


----------



## MilleD

cassie12 said:


> Well, you stumped me. I have never heard of prescribing metacam so frequently in cats. Three times a week max, in every website I ahve read.


My cat gets it every day. And blood tests once every three months.


----------



## MilleD

cassie12 said:


> Iwhen you say you had been back forwards many times, they are not going to turn you away are they, think of how much they have charged you..
> 
> To some up we are just a meal ticket for Vets.


I absolutely disagree with this. I pay a fixed rate a month and the vet is still perfectly happy to see us as often as is necessary and do whatever treatment is required. It's all covered by the £13 a month I pay.

If what you say is true, they would fob us off right?


----------



## QOTN

Stomorgyl was developed in the early 1990s to attempt to combat stomatitis (hence the name) but research has found it is as ineffective as all the other treatments tried. I suppose it is now used for other conditions as well since it is available. Some friends of mine have been given it in the past for diarrhoea in their cats. @Ceiling Kitty I know metronidazole can be good for gut problems because of its anti inflammatory properties but what is the purpose of the Spiramycin in these conditions?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I think Cassie12 has quoted Lorilu. Lorilu lives in the US and (I do keep saying this!) the situation in the US is not the same as that in the UK. My first post on this thread explains in detail what the differences are, and warns of the confusion that can arise if you don't know this when you start Googling Metacam.

It is not my opinion that bloodwork should 'always' be done before prescribing Metacam. No 'always' or 'never' in veterinary medicine; you're dealing with animals, not machines. Guidelines, research and past experience can help us greatly, but we can't apply 'rules' to nature.

Is it a good idea to check bloods before starting Metacam? Yes, an excellent one.
Is it the law? No.
Are there any circumstances in which you wouldn't do bloods beforehand? Yes, I think there are.
Is bloodwork the be-all-and-end-all? Certainly not.

People get very focused on bloodwork, and it is important in patient assessment, but really you need urine as well to make an informed decision. Without urine, you can't interpret the bloodwork properly. By basing the entire decision on a routine blood result and not checking urine, you could be missing a significant number of cats whose kidneys have lost their ability to concentrate urine properly but just not badly enough for things to show up on blood yet. The new SDMA blood test can help, but I'm not sure how many people are using this as routine screen yet.

Even blood and urine tests can't protect you against the rare idiosyncratic reactions that a few cats have.

If nothing else, I hope this thread can encourage cat owners to start a dialogue with their vet about this topic in an informed and non-confrontational manner. Many people complain about vets 'wanting to do tests all the time', and accuse them of money grabbing. Really, as soon as you mention tests some people automatically switch off. I've had people talk over me and say 'no blood tests' before I've even had a chance to explain why I made the suggestion.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

QOTN said:


> Stomorgyl was developed in the early 1990s to attempt to combat stomatitis (hence the name) but research has found it is as ineffective as all the other treatments tried. I suppose it is now used for other conditions as well since it is available. Some friends of mine have been given it in the past for diarrhoea in their cats. @Ceiling Kitty I know metronidazole can be good for gut problems because of its anti inflammatory properties but what is the purpose of the Spiramycin in these conditions?


Not a clue lol, I never use it! 

In all seriousness, I think the addition of spiramycin to metronidazole in Stomorgyl stems purely back to its indications for oral disease. Metronidazole does have immunomodulatory/anti-inflammatory properties which have made it a popular choice for all sorts of conditions (including GI disease), but it has a very narrow antibacterial spectrum. It is effective only against anaerobes. In the oral cavity, Gram positive aerobic bacteria can also be an issue and this is (I believe) what the spiramycin is for. It's similar to clindamycin (Antirobe).

Stomorgyl is the only licensed version of metronidazole in the UK at present (which is a bit of a pain). I have heard that a licensed version of plain metronidazole is soon to be released but I don't have any further details nor any guarantee that I didn't dream this information; BSAVA Congress is coming up and lots of drug companies like to launch new products there so I'll keep an eye and ear out.


----------



## QOTN

Do you mean that 'normal' flagyl has just suddenly disappeared or have my cats been given 'human' metronidazole in the past? I have never been offered Stomorgyl for anything.


----------



## nicolaa123

I've just looked at what I have in and the label says metrondiazole. I need to book Riley some bloods soon so will ask them then. He only has metrondiazole if he has a long blip.


----------



## cassie12

USA or UK Metacam is Metacam & there are far too many horror stories about it over there & over hear.
Its as though there is no alternative which is not true, so WHY risk a dangerous Drug such like Metacam & why do vets favour it ?...perhaps we will get an answer saying its the best or a very good "pain killer"...I would agree with the 2nd word "killer"
.

I personally think its something to do with the Drug Companies promoting it & pushing it, just like all drug companies do..

We humans can be prescribed dangerous drugs also, i have found this out the hard way,& not from the GP who prescribed it, even though I had complained that I felt it was not suiting me & that was not getting better the GP said to continue with it, which I did, but it almost eventually cost me my life, & its not the 1st time they have got it wrong.


----------



## QOTN

cassie12 said:


> USA or UK Metacam is Metacam & there are far too many horror stories about it over there & over hear.
> Its as though there is no alternative which is not true, so WHY risk a dangerous Drug such like Metacam & why do vets favour it ?...perhaps we will get an answer saying its the best or a very good "pain killer"...I would agree with the 2nd word "killer"
> .
> 
> I personally think its something to do with the Drug Companies promoting it & pushing it, just like all drug companies do..
> 
> We humans can be prescribed dangerous drugs also, i have found this out the hard way,& not from the GP who prescribed it, even though I had complained that I felt it was not suiting me & that was not getting better the GP said to continue with it, which I did, but it almost eventually cost me my life, & its not the 1st time they have got it wrong.


Please forgive me for remarking on this but I thought you said you were posting no more on this thread sometime ago!

I don't think you will understand however it is explained to you but Metacam is an effective anti-inflammatory and painkiller. There are other painkillers such as buprenorphine etc but they are not anti-inflammatory. If inflammation is present I don't think vets have much choice. I only have a hazy idea about it and I hesitate to call on Ceiliong Kitty since you have been so unpleasant about vets but I think NSAIDs in general can be a problem in cats as they can in humans but we all still take Ibuprofen etc etc when we need to. The alternative for inflammation is steroids which also have their side effects. All drugs do. The Metacam we have in the UK is specifically for cats and if used correctly is of great benefit to many thousands of cats every day. Vets will continue to use this drug when they have weighed up the risk/benefit in each individual case and many, many cat owners will continue to be thankful this drug is available to relieve their pets' suffering. Cats have no concept of longevity. Quality not quantity of life should be the overriding consideration.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend

Hi @jenny armour the replies are on page 245 xx


----------



## MilleD

I also find Metacam far more easier to administer than other drugs we've tried. 

I did a trial of Onsior (sp?) and I just couldn't get the pills into the cat. The first couple of days were fine, then she cottoned on and the jig was up.

The liquid syringe option is far better for a cat who hates pills.


----------



## jenny armour

oliver has now been admitted to the vets to be put on the drip, as he started bleeding again. I did tell the vet that he was prescribed stomorgyl back in nov 14 with the runs and blood and they didn't work then, so I am sure he would have been put on something else, not sure what. apparently he is still on this in the drip and he is being blood tested to see what is causing it. his temperature is now normal but he was becoming dehydrated.
thank mon for your help
also I was finishing the antibiotics when he was admitted and oliver wasn't eating hardly at all



bluecordelia said:


> Hi what does the vet think if he is just passing blood?
> 
> If he has fissures which bleed when he passes poo, I would try a softer diet ie tuna in spring water. This hydrates and most cats will have a go at tuna.
> 
> You must finish the antibiotics. Blue was given a dry diet by her vet but I soon binned it off.


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I think Cassie12 has quoted Lorilu. Lorilu lives in the US and (I do keep saying this!) the situation in the US is not the same as that in the UK. My first post on this thread explains in detail what the differences are, and warns of the confusion that can arise if you don't know this when you start Googling Metacam.
> 
> It is not my opinion that bloodwork should 'always' be done before prescribing Metacam. No 'always' or 'never' in veterinary medicine; you're dealing with animals, not machines. Guidelines, research and past experience can help us greatly, but we can't apply 'rules' to nature.
> 
> Is it a good idea to check bloods before starting Metacam? Yes, an excellent one.
> Is it the law? No.
> Are there any circumstances in which you wouldn't do bloods beforehand? Yes, I think there are.
> Is bloodwork the be-all-and-end-all? Certainly not.
> 
> People get very focused on bloodwork, and it is important in patient assessment, but really you need urine as well to make an informed decision. Without urine, you can't interpret the bloodwork properly. By basing the entire decision on a routine blood result and not checking urine, you could be missing a significant number of cats whose kidneys have lost their ability to concentrate urine properly but just not badly enough for things to show up on blood yet. The new SDMA blood test can help, but I'm not sure how many people are using this as routine screen yet.
> 
> Even blood and urine tests can't protect you against the rare idiosyncratic reactions that a few cats have.
> 
> If nothing else, I hope this thread can encourage cat owners to start a dialogue with their vet about this topic in an informed and non-confrontational manner. Many people complain about vets 'wanting to do tests all the time', and accuse them of money grabbing. Really, as soon as you mention tests some people automatically switch off. I've had people talk over me and say 'no blood tests' before I've even had a chance to explain why I made the suggestion.


All I can say is your clients are extremely lucky to have you as their vet I didn't have the luxury of being able to make an informed choice the dangers weren't explained other options weren't offered, had Molly's vet explained I would of happily requested blood, urine tests etc at regular intervals, this also my fault for not exploring it further which I beat myself up about every hour, I trusted her vet implicitly


----------



## Anne pittam

Both my cats have always red gums been tested but there teeth are perfect why is this


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> All I can say is your clients are extremely lucky to have you as their vet I didn't have the luxury of being able to make an informed choice the dangers weren't explained other options weren't offered, had Molly's vet explained I would of happily requested blood, urine tests etc at regular intervals, this also my fault for not exploring it further which I beat myself up about every hour, I trusted her vet implicitly


Have you spoken to the vet about this @Dianne1? Xx


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Have you spoken to the vet about this @Dianne1? Xx


No not yet paying final bill this week will speak to her then, I know this affected her as she did cry when I was with Molly at the end , she was Molly's vet for 7 years so this is very difficult but needs to be discussed I need honesty no matter how painful, people need to learn by mistakes


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## Ceiling Kitty

@cassie12 I have already explained why I believe we must continue to have Metacam at our disposal. I can't really explain it again without repeating myself, but you can read my earlier posts on the subject which will hopefully answer your questions.

Cats are my passion, in my life and my career. My use of Metacam is not based on a desire to line my pockets (I don't own a veterinary practice so there is no way it possibly could), nor is it out of blind acceptance of something Boehringer says. It's based on years of experience, reviews of the veterinary literature (of which there is plenty) and what I like to think is sensible clinical judgement. Metacam is a valuable addition to the analgesics (since you find the word painkiller suspect) we have at our disposal and I wouldn't be without it.

I have seen hundreds of cats, including my own, benefit from it and I suppose you can only take my word for that, but I'm not lying. On a daily basis I see more cats suffering with untreated pain from arthritis than I do suffering ill effects from the medications used to treat it. As cat owners we must try not to be afraid to treat pain for fear of side effects, hard as it can be sometimes.

I have tried several times to explain about Metacam, and the first posts on this very thread have most of the information I can give. I'm sorry my attempts to explain have not answered your questions.

Best wishes for the future, for you and Sooty, and I hope that in time you can find some peace and regain your trust in the veterinary profession. I take my job seriously and the treatment and welfare of cats is my passion.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> No not yet paying final bill this week will speak to her then, I know this affected her as she did cry when I was with Molly at the end , she was Molly's vet for 7 years so this is very difficult but needs to be discussed I need honesty no matter how painful, people need to learn by mistakes


It will not be an easy conversation for either of you but I agree it needs to be had. Sometimes it's helpful to write down any questions you want to ask so you don't forget. Please let us know how you get on.


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## Ceiling Kitty

QOTN said:


> Do you mean that 'normal' flagyl has just suddenly disappeared or have my cats been given 'human' metronidazole in the past? I have never been offered Stomorgyl for anything.


They're all human meds.


----------



## bluecordelia

Blue had Metrondiazole for clostridium perfingums which had gotten a bit out of control. 

Hope your cat perks up s bit on a drip x


----------



## cassie12

Regarding Arthritis , Cats are tough & very very good at dealing with pain & as they get older they don't run around as much, not that a house cat runs around much anyway they tend to sleep most of the time which again is normal for cats,
So to risk a dangerous painkiller for a condition most cats can deal with for me is a NoNo
My husband is riddled Osteoarthritis, he has tried different painkillers, but now he avoids them all, although he has to deal with some pain he says he feels much better being off the painkillers, & we humans are no where near as tough as our pets..
its a pity we cant ask our cats which they would prefer.


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## moggie14

cassie12 said:


> Regarding Arthritis , *Cats are tough & very very good at dealing with pain* & as they get older they don't run around as much, not that a house cat runs around much anyway they tend to sleep most of the time which again is normal for cats,
> So to risk a dangerous painkiller *for a condition most cats can deal with* for me is a NoNo
> My husband is riddled Osteoarthritis, he has tried different painkillers, but now he avoids them all, although he has to deal with some pain he says he feels much better being off the painkillers, & we humans are no where near as tough as our pets..
> its a pity we cant ask our cats which they would prefer.


So you would rather a cat be in constant pain? Just because a cat can 'deal' with pain does not mean it should. I would bet if cats could speak they would rather be pain free.


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## QOTN

cassie12 said:


> Regarding Arthritis , Cats are tough & very very good at dealing with pain & as they get older they don't run around as much, not that a house cat runs around much anyway they tend to sleep most of the time which again is normal for cats,
> So to risk a dangerous painkiller for a condition most cats can deal with for me is a NoNo
> My husband is riddled Osteoarthritis, he has tried different painkillers, but now he avoids them all, although he has to deal with some pain he says he feels much better being off the painkillers, & we humans are no where near as tough as our pets..
> its a pity we cant ask our cats which they would prefer.


Nobody is suggesting cats should be treated for arthritis unless they are showing symptoms. The symptoms occur when the cat is in pain. To deny it possible relief is actually a welfare issue. In the UK we are required by law to treat our pets when they are ill. I admit that many heartless, cruel people break the law in this respect but this does not give you justification to encourage others to do so.

A vet can assess very accurately if a cat's change of behaviour is due to pain or something of less concern such as the natural slowing of old age. I have a 17 and a half year old cat who was in so much pain two years ago, she would have had to be put to sleep. This was not arthritis but a kidney stone which could not be treated because she was too frail for surgery. She has had Vetergesic every day for the last two years and she is very bright and interactive although she now has some of the other conditions of old age. Yes she sleeps a great deal as all cats do but my vet checks her regularly and if for a moment we assessed her quality of life as poor because of constant pain, I would let her go. I love her too much to let her suffer.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Oh no, I can't agree with leaving cats in pain.  So many cats suffer in silence already. My arthritic cat never seemed that bad, but once he had his pain relief he was like a kitten again and it was only then I realised how sore he had been.

Cats cannot tell us if they are in pain (like people), nor can they understand or rationalise it (like people).

I would definitely prefer to risk my cat leading a shorter, comfortable life than a long one of intractable pain. Pain gets worse and less treatable the longer you allow it to continue, which is why human pain specialists recommend prompt intervention.

No, I will never, ever support leaving cats in pain just because they don't act like it. Cats make it easy for us to ignore or miss pain but WE ARE THEIR ADVOCATES. How could we knowingly let them suffer?

This is so sad!


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## moggie14

@Ceiling Kitty Your words are falling on deaf ears. She stopped listening to anyone on this thread a long time ago and knows more than a qualified vet of course 
I'm shocked to read that any animal lover thinks it's OK for a cat to be in pain long term.


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## Ceiling Kitty

moggie14 said:


> @Ceiling Kitty Your words are falling on deaf ears. She stopped listening to anyone on this thread a long time ago and knows more than a qualified vet of course
> I'm shocked to read that any animal lover thinks it's OK for a cat to be in pain long term.


I have tried to help her. I hope I did in some way.


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## moggie14

You've certainly helped others that will no doubt read this thread in the future


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## cassie12

QOTN said:


> Nobody is suggesting cats should be treated for arthritis unless they are showing symptoms. The symptoms occur when the cat is in pain. To deny it possible relief is actually a welfare issue. In the UK we are required by law to treat our pets when they are ill. I admit that many heartless, cruel people break the law in this respect but this does not give you justification to encourage others to do so.
> 
> A vet can assess very accurately if a cat's change of behaviour is due to pain or something of less concern such as the natural slowing of old age. I have a 17 and a half year old cat who was in so much pain two years ago, she would have had to be put to sleep. This was not arthritis but a kidney stone which could not be treated because she was too frail for surgery. She has had Vetergesic every day for the last two years and she is very bright and interactive although she now has some of the other conditions of old age. Yes she sleeps a great deal as all cats do but my vet checks her regularly and if for a moment we assessed her quality of life as poor because of constant pain, I would let her go. I love her too much to let her suffer.





QOTN said:


> Nobody is suggesting cats should be treated for arthritis unless they are showing symptoms. The symptoms occur when the cat is in pain. To deny it possible relief is actually a welfare issue. In the UK we are required by law to treat our pets when they are ill. I admit that many heartless, cruel people break the law in this respect but this does not give you justification to encourage others to do so.
> 
> A vet can assess very accurately if a cat's change of behaviour is due to pain or something of less concern such as the natural slowing of old age. I have a 17 and a half year old cat who was in so much pain two years ago, she would have had to be put to sleep. This was not arthritis but a kidney stone which could not be treated because she was too frail for surgery. She has had Vetergesic every day for the last two years and she is very bright and interactive although she now has some of the other conditions of old age. Yes she sleeps a great deal as all cats do but my vet checks her regularly and if for a moment we assessed her quality of life as poor because of constant pain, I would let her go. I love her too much to let her suffer.


How does anyone know the extent of their arthritic pain suffering ? they cant tell us like we can tell our GP, its the same as how do we know if our beloved cats are safe taking Metacam, use & it take the risk of losing your Cat.
We all can wobble a bit as we age dosnt mean we cant cope or that we are in agony, we adapt, as a cat would do.

*All I am saying I would not risk this drug Metacam on "Any Cat" ever again for any illness ! & those that do take a risk on it for what ever ailment their Cat may have, you cant say you have not been Warned.*


----------



## Elizabeth and Bertie

I recently made the decision to give Metacam to my 18 year old kitty, Jonesy, despite all the disturbing accounts that I've read about it on the internet.

Jonesy had been unhappy and lethargic for a little while, and became less and less inclined to move around. He clearly had a problem with one of his back legs. 
During the vet's examination of the leg, Jonesy became very distressed and even tried to bite the vet (which isn't normally in his nature at all, he's a very placid cat). The vet thought it was arthritis and suggested a trial period on Metacam to see if Jonesy felt any better. He had blood tests done and they all came back as well within normal range. So, despite my concerns about Metacam, we embarked on a month's trial... 
The difference in Jonesy's behaviour was profound. Within a few days he was moving around considerably more than usual. And he was able to get up the stairs without problems, and even to jump around on the furniture. He regained his enthusiasm for going outside to patrol the garden. 
So, when the month's trial ended, a decision was made to keep him on Metacam for the time being.

I'm very aware that some people's cats have had problems with Metacam, and that is very sad indeed. But my cat, Jonesy, currently has a much better quality of life as a result of it, and I'm very grateful for that. 
I suffer from a condition that gives me chronic pain, and I know first hand the effect that chronic pain can have on one's quality of life. It affects all aspects of life, physical, mental and emotional. 
It must be the case though that I don't _show_ that I am in pain very much, because people I come into contact with express genuine surprise if they find out that I have a painful condition: They'd 'never have known it'.... But the pain is certainly there nonetheless.... 
My pain is a neuropathic pain that is quite hard to treat. And it will probably get worse. But fortunately, my arthritic cat Jonesy has the option of pain relief. And, despite my concerns about Metacam, I am very pleased to be able to help relieve him of his pain.
I am aware that the Metacam may adversely affect his body in some way a little way down the line. But relief from pain - and improved quality of life - are tremendous blessings, whatever the future holds.

Eliz


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## Ceiling Kitty

Thanks for sharing @Elizabeth and Bertie and gentle hugs for Jonesy. I'm soon to start a low dose of Metacam for Poppy, my 16-year-old, as she is very arthritic and I do believe it causes her pain. Just waiting on delivery of the medication to my mother, with whom Poppy lives.


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## Ceiling Kitty

@karen_ok How are things going?


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## Dianne1

These are all lovely success stories but one thing in common a vet that monitors the cat my Molly was 4 not 16, 17 or 18 when she was put on Metacam she died at 9 forgive me for having a different view but if you're going to show the successes you must also show and accept there are heartbreaking failures


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## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> These are all lovely success stories but one thing in common a vet that monitors the cat my Molly was 4 not 16, 17 or 18 when she was put on Metacam she died at 9 forgive me for having a different view but if you're going to show the successes you must also show and accept there are heartbreaking failures


I know. (((hugs)))

I think this long-running thread took an unnecessarily black turn - there is a difference between discussing treatment failures / adverse reactions / concerns over case management and suggesting cats in pain could go untreated - and sometimes a positive experience helps redress the balance. If you read back through this entire thread (I realise it is long), you will find that lots of people have shared their experiences of Metacam both good and bad.

I originally created this thread as a means of sharing reliable information (lifted from the literature) in an internet full of terrifying scare stories. I also welcomed, and still do, people's reports of their experiences with the drug. It was and is my goal to try and help cat owners make an informed decision about Metacam based on facts and the experiences of others. While bad experiences must never be censored, I find they become much less helpful if the thoughts accompanying them are overly prescriptive or based heavily on dubious information from some of the internet horror sites. The aim is to educate, not to blindly terrify. I hope this makes sense.

When are you going in to sort your bill and talk to the vet?


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## Dianne1

I understand the reasoning behind the thread but my personal opinion is I do not trust the drug or Molly's vet at present, I had to watch that little girl fight for her life and lose over a six wk period, as for Molly's vet she has taken 2 months off unpaid leave so I'm pretty much in between a rock & a hard place and as you have also pointed out she has not broken any laws, oh but practice will take my money when I collect Molly's ashes, but rest assured anyone who thinks on here that I would leave a cat in pain without meds I wont because don't have one anymore, I think you can tell I'm a tiny bit annoyed right now


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## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> I understand the reasoning behind the thread but my personal opinion is I do not trust the drug or Molly's vet at present, I had to watch that little girl fight for her life and lose over a six wk period, as for Molly's vet she has taken 2 months off unpaid leave so I'm pretty much in between a rock & a hard place and as you have also pointed out she has not broken any laws, oh but practice will take my money when I collect Molly's ashes, but rest assured anyone who thinks on here that I would leave a cat in pain without meds I wont because don't have one anymore, I think can tell I'm a tiny bit annoyed right now


I don't think you would leave any cat in pain @Dianne1.

Being angry is understandable. Do you think it would help you to have a discussion with the practice? If the vet in question is unavailable, you can/should talk to the owner of the practice. Ask to make an appointment to talk to them if they are busy when you go in, or write a letter to the practice owner.

How did you get on with the bereavement support people? xx


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## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I don't think you would leave any cat in pain @Dianne1.
> 
> Being angry is understandable. Do you think it would help you to have a discussion with the practice? If the vet in question is unavailable, you can/should talk to the owner of the practice. Ask to make an appointment to talk to them if they are busy when you go in, or write a letter to the practice owner.
> 
> How did you get on with the bereavement support people? xx


Actually thats a fair point think I will contact the practice manager feeling totally fed up, our family's used the same vets for over 30 years and feeling let down for both Molly & myself, as for the bereavement people still waiting to hear back from them..... very small fish in big pond springs to mind !


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## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> Actually thats a fair point think I will contact the practice manager feeling totally fed up, our family's used the same vets for over 30 years and feeling let down for both Molly & myself, as for the bereavement people still waiting to hear back from them..... very small fish in big pond springs to mind !


I hope they get back to you very soon.

30 years is a long relationship to have with a practice. It is no wonder you feel fed up, confused and/or let down. Definitely talk to them when you are ready. If we can help in any way, please don't be afraid to ask. xx


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## The Wild Bunch

Not had much to say on this subject but as an arthritis sufferer myself and as a co-owner of an elderly, creaky old lady dog who would be far worse off without metacam I find it abhorrent that somebody would much rather leave their animal in pain than give them a painkilling anti-inflammatory drug. I take NSAIDs for my arthritis. I know all the risks, potential for stomach ulcers which will be hidden by the analgesic properties of the drug I take but I take the risk because I don't want to be in pain. Saffy (our dog) has luxating patella in her left back leg. Her right back leg has a shallow ball and socket so her ball joint does tend to pop out which my mum has learnt to rectify. As she is an oldie who is covered in sebaceous cysts and is pretty much totally blind she doesn't have much going for her but she's not in pain and she's happy which is worth its weight in gold to us. We would never dream of leaving her in pain. We are lucky that our vet is frank, honest and open. We trust him implicitly


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## Dianne1

daisysmama said:


> Not had much to say on this subject but as an arthritis sufferer myself and as a co-owner of an elderly, creaky old lady dog who would be far worse off without metacam I find it abhorrent that somebody would much rather leave their animal in pain than give them a painkilling anti-inflammatory drug. I take NSAIDs for my arthritis. I know all the risks, potential for stomach ulcers which will be hidden by the analgesic properties of the drug I take but I take the risk because I don't want to be in pain. Saffy (our dog) has luxating patella in her left back leg. Her right back leg has a shallow ball and socket so her ball joint does tend to pop out which my mum has learnt to rectify. As she is an oldie who is covered in sebaceous cysts and is pretty much totally blind she doesn't have much going for her but she's not in pain and she's happy which is worth its weight in gold to us. We would never dream of leaving her in pain. We are lucky that our vet is frank, honest and open. We trust him implicitly


Think thats the point having vet that is open & honest wish mine was expect your pet is also being monitored whilst on Metacam, I've decided to unwatch this thread now too distressing this time last wk my baby girl left this world


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## The Wild Bunch

Dianne1 said:


> having vet that is open & honest wish mine was


Yes he is open and honest with me but I am also inquisitive (nosey) and I'm not afraid to ask a lot of questions (not saying you are btw) I'm also fortunate that in our practice there are two vets and two nurses so i always get to see Steve who knows my guys inside out and they have their own animal hospital for OOH and big cases which keeps the continuity of care that I desire for my animals.
I know some practices near to me who have lots of vets so you may see a different vet every time. 
I am sorry that you have had such an unhappy outcome for Molly and I can understand your grief and anger at the situation. I hope the bereavement service can help you and that your practice manager can look into your case to hopefully allow you some closure. Big hugs x


----------



## jocat

My 16 year old cat starts on Metacam tomorrow as he now has arthritis in his back legs and on the last visit to the vet just over a week ago we got told us that he also has a slight heart murmur, ive read good and bad things on here about Metacam but i can see my cat is in pain and walks very stiffly and sometimes hisses which i think is the pain when he first gets up so hope he will be ok on it, the vet has given us a weeks worth to try him on first to see if all goes well and then he will probably go on it more permanantly. Oh and he also has gingivitis.

Just to add, he has not yet had any tests done or bloods taken, i wonder if the vet has just given me a weeks worth to try first and if all is well they will take bloods if he has to go on it more permanantly???
He has lost a little weight the past couple of times of visiting the vets and is now 4.1kg and ive been told to give him a 4kg dose.


----------



## cassie12

jocat said:


> My 16 year old cat starts on Metacam tomorrow as he now has arthritis in his back legs and on the last visit to the vet just over a week ago we got told us that he also has a slight heart murmur, ive read good and bad things on here about Metacam but i can see my cat is in pain and walks very stiffly and sometimes hisses which i think is the pain when he first gets up so hope he will be ok on it, the vet has given us a weeks worth to try him on first to see if all goes well and then he will probably go on it more permanantly. Oh and he also has gingivitis.
> 
> Just to add, he has not yet had any tests done or bloods taken, i wonder if the vet has just given me a weeks worth to try first and if all is well they will take bloods if he has to go on it more permanantly???
> He has lost a little weight the past couple of times of visiting the vets and is now 4.1kg and ive been told to give him a 4kg dose.


If the Vet has prescribed Metacam knowing your cat has gingsvitis & knowing he is 16 years old *before doing any blood test first, then the Vet is a incompetent idiot..
i certainly would recommend you Don't give your Cat any of the Metacam !*


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## QOTN

jocat said:


> My 16 year old cat starts on Metacam tomorrow as he now has arthritis in his back legs and on the last visit to the vet just over a week ago we got told us that he also has a slight heart murmur, ive read good and bad things on here about Metacam but i can see my cat is in pain and walks very stiffly and sometimes hisses which i think is the pain when he first gets up so hope he will be ok on it, the vet has given us a weeks worth to try him on first to see if all goes well and then he will probably go on it more permanantly. Oh and he also has gingivitis.
> 
> Just to add, he has not yet had any tests done or bloods taken, i wonder if the vet has just given me a weeks worth to try first and if all is well they will take bloods if he has to go on it more permanantly???
> He has lost a little weight the past couple of times of visiting the vets and is now 4.1kg and ive been told to give him a 4kg dose.


Please bear in mind that nobody posting on this forum is a qualified vet apart from @Ceiling Kitty and she is always careful to refer you to your vet even though she is happy to give you information. It is completely irresponsible for any other person to advise you not to treat your cat.

I am sure you are too sensible to be swayed. If your boy is in pain, the most important thing is to make him comfortable. One of my vets told me that if the practice has cats who cannot tolerate Meracam, they use Vetergesic instead but of course it is a morphine based painkiller so would not be able to tackle the inflammation. If he has any side effects in the first week of treatment. simply phone your vet immediately and they will advise you what to do.


----------



## Dianne1

A


QOTN said:


> Please bear in mind that nobody posting on this forum is a qualified vet apart from @Ceiling Kitty and she is always careful to refer you to your vet even though she is happy to give you information. It is completely irresponsible for any other person to advise you not to treat your cat.
> 
> I am sure you are too sensible to be swayed. If your boy is in pain, the most important thing is to make him comfortable. One of my vets told me that if the practice has cats who cannot tolerate Meracam, they use Vetergesic instead but of course it is a morphine based painkiller so would not be able to tackle the inflammation. If he has any side effects in the first week of treatment. simply phone your vet immediately and they will advise you what to do.


As you say nobody is a qualified vet on this website however after speaking to a veterinary nurse today I'm in no doubt my vet killed my cat angry DON'T get me started !!!! Metacam does kill cats


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## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> A
> 
> As you say nobody is a qualified vet on this website however after speaking to a veterinary nurse today I'm in no doubt my vet killed my cat angry DON'T get me started !!!! Metacam does kill cats


What happened?


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> What happened?


Finally got the truth I'm not letting this go apologies aren't good enough, I feel like they've ripped my heart out


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## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> Finally got the truth I'm not letting this go apologies aren't good enough, I feel like they've ripped my heart out


You can PM me if you want.


----------



## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> You can PM me if you want.


No disrespect but I'll never trust another vet in my life, luckily I'll never have another cat I cant protect them, I'm not letting this drop, still waiting for her ashes, cant get passed that I gave her that stuff every night !!


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## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> No disrespect but I'll never trust another vet in my life, luckily I'll never have another cat I cant protect them, I'm not letting this drop, still waiting for her ashes, cant get passed that I gave her that stuff every night !!


Well, the door is open.

If you wish to take your concerns further than you can contact the RCVS:

http://findavet.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/i-want-to-raise-a-concern-about-a-veterinary-surgeon/


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## Dianne1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Well, the door is open.
> 
> If you wish to take your concerns further than you can contact the RCVS:
> 
> http://findavet.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/i-want-to-raise-a-concern-about-a-veterinary-surgeon/


I have the details & I'm using them, thank u but the hurts too deep


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Dianne1 said:


> I have the details & I'm using them, thank u but the hurts too deep


Let us know how you get on, if you want to. Best wishes.


----------



## QOTN

Dianne1 said:


> A
> 
> As you say nobody is a qualified vet on this website however after speaking to a veterinary nurse today I'm in no doubt my vet killed my cat angry DON'T get me started !!!! Metacam does kill cats


My post was not for you. Earlier you said you were unwatching this thread. I was responding to Jocat who was being offered veterinary advice by an unqualified person.


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## Dianne1

QOTN said:


> My post was not for you. Earlier you said you were unwatching this thread. I was responding to Jocat who was being offered veterinary advice by an unqualified person.


I hope you're never in my position


----------



## bcats

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I thought it may be useful to post something about the use of Metacam in cats, seeing as it is such a widely used medication.
> 
> If your cat is prescribed Metacam, you may be greeted with some disturbing reports from friends or on the internet. Whether or not you choose to use Metacam should be an informed decision, so hopefully this post will provide a starting point for your own research.
> 
> Two points first:
> 1. The following does NOT constitute medical advice. It is intended to explain Metacam and the pros/cons of using it from a general point of view. You must ask your vet if you have any concerns about your cat or the use of Metacam.
> 2. I'm keeping my own views out of it, by and large. But I will say now that I have used Metacam many times in my own cats and would do so again. I have personally seen very few cases of serious side effects, but this is anecdotal based on my own experience.
> 
> *
> What is Metacam?*
> 
> Metacam is a drug called meloxicam. Metacam is a brand name, and is the first and most popular brand of meloxicam, but these days there are others as well. Most have injectable forms, which might be given by subcutaneous injection at the vet's, and a syrup for oral administration on food.
> - Metacam (made by Boehringer)
> - Loxicom (Norbrook)
> - Meloxidyl (Ceva)
> - Rheumocam (Chanelle)
> You have been in touch with me only last week regarding my cat Honey who is suffering from recurring Conjunctivitis and Corneal ulcers. I have been given Metacam for her. A dose for a 5kg cat Honey weighs over 5KG. The first dose I was told to double which I was not happy about. Surely ion would have been better. I have to be careful because 2 years + ago she was diagnosed with Tritrichomonol feotis. This has not been a problem for some time. Rarely gets diarrhoea. Last week I had to stop this medication after a week because her bowels were loose. Went back to normal once I stopped the Metacam . On 29th March because her eyes were so painful my vet advised to try putting her back on it but a very low dose starting for a 2kg cat upping up gradually over a few days. Yesterday after a 3kg dose she had diarrhoea. I gave her the usual VBS Clay, one level scoop which has always worked but today more diarrhoea and her second bout was very loose and green. I am very concerned. Honey is at the moment bright and asking for food. Ive looked at her eyes and no sign of yellow also her mouth is nice and pink. All I have given her today is a little fresh fish no Metacam. We have an appointment next Tuesday at a referral hospital near Newmarket for her eyes. Your comments will be most appreciated.
> 
> It is worth pointing out an important difference between Metacam in the UK and in the States here. Bear this in mind if you are doing your own reading on the internet - American sites may give different information to UK sites.
> 
> In the States, Metacam used to be licensed for dogs only and the dog version was used 'off-licence' for cats. If something is off-licence, this means it has not been specifically tested on and marketed for the species or condition in question; it does not necessarily mean it should not be used. Zantac, for example, is not licensed in dogs or cats as it is a human medication, but it is very useful and has very few side effects.
> 
> Nowadays, Metacam IS licensed for dogs and cats in the States as an injectable, but it is the same formulation for both dogs and cats. The oral liquid is not licensed in cats.
> *
> The situation in the UK is different.*
> - in the UK, there is a separate injection available for cats. The cat version (imaginatively called 'Metacam for Cats' ) is less concentrated than the dog version... well, I call it the 'dog version', but it is still licensed for cats. The specific cat version is probably better to use if you can get it.
> - in the UK, there is also a specific cat oral version available which does not exist in the US. Again, it is less concentrated than the dog version and should always be used in cats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, what is meloxicam?*
> 
> Meloxicam is in a class of drug called NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs). This is same class of drug as human medications such as ibuprofen, aspirin and diclofenac, but shine a light, don't give those to your cat or dog, EVER. While I'm at it, please NEVER give paracetamol to your cat as it is extremely toxic to them.
> 
> NSAIDs have three main properties which make them very useful medications.
> 1. They are painkillers, making them useful for most sorts of pain such as lameness, dental pain, abscesses and injuries, cystitis, back pain etc.
> 2. They bring down fevers, so can make a cat with a temperature feel much better.
> 3. They are anti-inflammatory, helping with the inflammation involved in a range of conditions including arthritis, cystitis, gingivitis etc.
> 
> *How it works - technical stuff*
> 
> Yeah, you can skip this bit if you want, but for anyone who is interested:
> 
> NSAIDs like meloxicam mainly work by inhibiting an enzyme called COX (cyclo-oxygenase). This enzyme is a natural part of the body's inflammatory response and results in the production of prostaglandins.
> 
> Prostaglandins are responsible for pain, inflammation and fever, so stopping their production by inhibiting COX reduces their effects, and this is how NSAIDs like Metacam work. Prostaglandins have also been implicated in certain cancer pathways. However, prostaglandins are not all bad. They also have some useful functions in the body. They are involved in blood clotting, maintaining the protective lining of the stomach, supporting blood flow to the kidneys and a variety of other normal bodily functions. This is important when considering the side effects of NSAIDs.
> 
> Just to make things even more complicated (I'm really sorry), there are two types of COX enzyme in the body* that we know about:
> - COX-1 - mainly involved in the production of 'normal', helpful prostaglandins such as those involved in gastric and renal health. It tends to be released all the time at a constant rate.
> - COX-2 - mainly involved in the production of the 'bad' prostaglandins such as those resulting in inflammation, pain and fever. This is usually only released when an infection or injury etc occurs.
> I have written it this way for simplicity. *There is overlap and it's not quite as cut-and-dry as this.* COX-2 does have good effects as well, but these are outweighed by the bad effects.
> 
> _*a new isoform named COX-3 has also been identified, which seems to have a role in the control of pain in the brain and spinal cord, but not so much is known about this yet._
> 
> Why is this differentiation between COX-1 and COX-2 important? It comes down to side effects, mainly. Traditional NSAIDs (including meloxicam) inhibit all COX enzymes, thus wiping out the 'good' prostaglandins as well as the 'bad' ones. This is what can lead to side effects such as gastric ulceration and renal damage.
> 
> A few years back, the COX-2 selective NSAIDs were born and supposed to solve the problem. There aren't any licensed for cats, but an example would be firocoxib (Previcox for dogs). These are designed to knock out COX-2, thus inhibiting the production of 'bad' prostaglandins, while maintaining production of COX-1 and the 'good' prostaglandins. It's a good theory, but sadly it hasn't worked out quite as simply as that in practice; some of the side effects classically associated with COX-1 inhibition were reduced, but others still occurred.
> 
> There's a lot more going on in NSAID development than can be covered here, so I'll leave it at that for now.
> 
> *Using Metacam for Cats*
> 
> The following applies to the UK license.
> 
> Meloxicam is the only NSAID licensed for long-term use in cats. I'll put a bit more about other NSAIDs used in cats at the end of the post, but we'll stick to Metacam here (it will also apply to Meloxidyl and Loxicom if you use those instead).
> 
> Injecting Metacam
> Your cat may receive a one-off injection of Metacam at the vet's, for example to bring down a fever or for a minor injury. The injection is given under the skin and lasts 24 hours. Either the dog/cat version or the cat-only version can be used, but the latter allows more accurate dosing as it is a lower concentration.
> 
> The injectable version of Metacam is licensed to be given as a one-off injection and not repeated. However, under certain circumstances (for example, if a cat is not eating or will not take the oral formulation), the injection can be repeated off-licence. Boehringer do provide guidelines for vets on this - basically any repeat injections given must be a quarter of the original dose.
> 
> Oral Metacam
> This may given as a course of a few days following an initial injection, or as a long-term medication for cats with ongoing pain caused by arthritis. It can be used indefinitely. Only the cat version should be used, never the dog version. The syrup is given once a day with food (either mixed with the meal or syringed into the mouth on a full stomach).
> 
> Dosing of oral Metacam is based on the cat's bodyweight and should only be done with the syringe provided. Using any other syringe will be inaccurate and could result in overdose or underdose. I'll write a bit more about dosing later on, so stick around (well done for getting this far).
> 
> *Side effects of NSAIDs, incuding Metacam*
> 
> All medications have side effects, it's inevitable. NSAIDs are no exception, and while most of their side effects are mild and not serious, some can be. Remember that these are drugs that can be purchased over the counter at a supermarket and are not hugely regulated in the human world, and that deaths sadly occur in people taking drugs like diclofenac and ibuprofen as well. Yet many of us continue to take them. I can't take NSAIDs any more because of my gastric ulcer troubles, but I used to. And if I did take them, they would still work... they just screw my stomach over in the process.
> 
> Anyway, getting sidetracked. The side effects of NSAIDs, including Metacam, are largely down to their inhibition of those 'good' prostaglandins we spoke about if you read the technical bit.
> 
> 1. Gastric upsets. These are the most common side effect and can range from mild vomiting and diarrhoea to severe ulceration, depending on the circumstances. Mild cases usually usually resolve without problems once the medication is stopped. If your cat loses his/her appetite on Metacam, has vomiting or diarrhoea or black faeces (melena), seek immediate veterinary advice.
> 
> 2. Bleeding disorders. These are much less common. Symptoms may include bruising, bleeding into the urine or faeces, nosebleeds and breathing difficulties. Contact the vet immediately if you see any of the above.
> 
> 3. Kidney failure. Cases of acute renal failure following Metacam administration have been reported - these are more common when the medication is overdosed or given to dehydrated cats, but can occur at normal doses in normal cats. This kind of reaction is rare, but of course this is of little comfort if your cat is one of the few affected. Look out for signs of lethargy, increased thirst or increased urination: with prompt treatment (hospitalisation and fluids), many cats can recover from acute renal failure.*
> 
> _*anecdotally speaking, I have seen one case of a young cat who sadly went into acute renal failure following a dose of Metacam, made a full recovery with treatment and has since been treated with NSAIDs again without any issues whatsoever._
> 
> 4. Liver disease. Rare cases of a liver reaction to Metacam have been reported. Symptoms of this can include lethargy and inappetance (generally feeling unwell), jaundice or vomiting. Seek immediate veterinary advice if you see these or are otherwise concerned.
> 
> These side effects tend to be more common in older cats, or those with pre-existing diseases. The risk of renal failure is particularly increased in cats suffering with significant dehydration, or those in shock after an injury or accident. I would like to add that while NSAIDs should be used with increased caution in older cats, being elderly is not a reason to be denied pain relief (especially as it is our older cats who tend to suffer with long-term pain such as arthritis). I'll add a bit more about using NSAIDs safely in older cats further down.
> 
> *Contraindications - when Metacam should not be used*
> 
> There are circumstances in which NSAIDs are contraindicated - that is, they should not be used at all. These include, but are not limited to:
> - hypovolaemic shock (such as immediately after an accident, severe haemorrhage etc).
> - significant dehydration.
> - pre-existing cases of gastric ulceration.
> - impaired liver or renal function*.
> - pregnancy or lactation.
> - cats also receiving steroids or another NSAID.
> - known allergy or hypersensitivity to meloxicam.
> 
> NSAIDs are not completely contraindicated in cats also receiving diuretics (eg frusemide) or ACE inhibitors (eg Fortekor), but their use should be considered and executed carefully.
> _
> *according to the official datasheet. More later on the use of NSAIDs in cats with renal disease._
> 
> 
> *Dosing oral Metacam to reduce side effects*
> *
> NEVER MAKE ANY CHANGES TO YOUR CAT'S DOSING SCHEDULE WITHOUT RUNNING IT BY YOUR VET FIRST.*
> 
> How to dose?
> Oral Metacam is only available as a liquid, which makes accurate dosing easier compared to using tablets. As mentioned earlier, always use the syringe that comes with the bottle. If you lose/break it, ask your vet for another and do not be tempted to use a different syringe as the Metacam one is quite specific. Always give Metacam on a full stomach - either mixed in with the food, or into the mouth after a meal. Giving Metacam on an empty stomach will increase the chance of tummy upsets.
> 
> When to dose?
> Not much work has been done on the best time of day to administer Metacam to cats. Peak effect in dogs seems to be around 7.5 hours after administration. It may make sense to try and time the dose so that the peak effect coincides with your cat's most active period - record when your cat seems most active then speak to your vet about it. Do not give Metacam any more often than every 24 hours.
> 
> How much to dose?
> Always go with what your vet has prescribed, but if you wish to change the dose then speak to them about it. The ISFM/AAFP guidelines on NSAID use in cats suggest reducing the dose given before decreasing the frequency of dosing. Gradually reducing the dose to the lowest effective dose, in conjunction with your vet's advice, is one way of minimising side effects - but it won't work for every cat (some need the full dose). One study in 2008 found that cats given less than the recommended dose for about 6 months did pretty well and suffered minimal side effects, but it was subjectively assessed. Cats that are overweight should be dosed for their 'lean' bodyweight - dose the cat, not the fat.
> 
> How often to dose?
> Metacam has a half-life of 24 hours and is licensed for once daily dosing. Generally, the ISFM/AAFP guidelines suggest sticking to this, reducing the amount given per dose rather than giving the medication less often. Giving the medication 2-3 times weekly risks leaving the cat without effective pain control some of the time. 'Pulse therapy' - that is, giving bursts of medication every now and then for a long-term condition such as arthritis - is not recommended in most cases, but speak to your vet.
> 
> So, if you are looking to reduce the long-term dose of Metacam that your cat is having, it is better to try a smaller daily dose but keep giving it daily. Be aware that doses in long-term conditions such as arthritis are likely to change over time, so be prepared to increase the dose again if necessary. Once again - sorry for sounding like a cracked record - always involve your vet in your decisions.
> 
> Right, all of the following information is based on the awesome ISFM/AAFP guidelines on the long-term use of NSAIDs in cats. A lot of this is going to apply to the older boys and girls, who are:
> a) more likely to need long-term Metacam because of arthritis,
> b) are more likely to be suffering with other conditions such as CKD, IBD etc.
> 
> *Metacam and renal disease*
> 
> Prostaglandins are involved in maintaining the blood flow to the kidneys, so NSAIDs such as Metacam reduce renal blood flow. This is currently an inevitable side effect. In acute kidney failure (thinking lily toxicity, antifreeze, kidney infections etc), the use of an NSAID would likely make things a lot worse. As mentioned before, Metacam can (in some cases) actually cause AKF (acute kidney failure) on its own. This seems to be more common in cats than in people, and is more likely if Metacam is given in cases of dehydration, shock or in older patients. It is usually reversible if caught and treated quickly.
> 
> The role of NSAIDs in CKD (chronic kidney disease) is less clear. In human medicine, some studies have shown that NSAID use can induce progression of existing CKD; others have shown that it does not. Studies that found a link found that the risk was low.
> 
> Some interesting studies in the world of feline medicine have been carried out looking at this.
> - a 2008 study followed cats with IRIS Stage 3 CKD that were given a low daily meloxicam dose for arthritis over a period of six months. There was no progression of their renal disease compared to healthy controls.
> - a 2009 study followed cats with IRIS Stage 1-3 CKD also given a low daily meloxicam dose for 12 months - same outcome.
> 
> So, while the official UK datasheet from Boehringer states: _*Do not use in cats suffering from* gastrointestinal disorders such as irritation and haemorrhage, *impaired hepatic, cardiac or renal function* and haemorrhagic disorders..._ recent research has suggested that the long-term use of Metacam in cats with pre-existing CKD is reasonably safe, provided the CKD is stable and dosing is carried out carefully.
> 
> I should point out that the US datasheet states something different: _Do not use Metacam Oral Suspension in cats. Acute renal failure and death have been associated with the use of meloxicam in cats._ Remember that in the States only the stronger concentration is available, whereas in the UK we have a cat-only version.
> 
> The ISFM/AAFP recognises that many older cats suffer with CKD, and has made some recommendations for the use of NSAIDs in these kitties to make it as safe as possible. These are summarised as such:
> 
> 
> The risk of developing AKF from NSAID use exists, but is considered low.
> Monitoring bloods and urine for continuing assessment of renal function is recommended. Checking blood and urine samples before, during and after Metacam therapy increases the chances of catching AKF early in the unlikely event that it occurs.
> Use the lowest dose of Metacam possible (see previous section of post).
> Always give Metacam with food, and don't give it if the cat doesn't eat. Ensure adequate water intake - wet food!
> Address dehydration and shock before giving Metacam. In the event of anaesthesia, ensure that blood pressure is maintained and consider the judicious use of a drip.
> If there is heart disease AND CKD together, it makes things problematic due to an increased risk of AKF - try alternative pain relief options if possible.
> I will finish the renal stuff with a direct quote from the guidelines:
> _Current data suggest that at least some NSAIDs can be used safely in cats with stable CKD at judicious doses, and that this should not be a reason for withholding analgesic therapy when it is indicated. Further data, particularly in cats with advanced renal disease, would be valuable and such pharmacovigilance studies are vital._
> 
> Part two shortly... bear with...
> 
> Edited March 2016 to replace broken photo link.


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## bcats

Sorry if you have received my post. Looks like it has not been posted.
Re Metacam. You have already posted some information regarding my cat with recurring conjunctivitis and corneal ulcers. The vet prescribed Meticam she weighs over 5k and two years + ago she was diagnosed with Tritricomonol foetus which she had completely recovered from and has had no bouts for a year or more. The first dose of meticam was for 10 k cat there after 5k cat. I would have preferred the injection to begin with because of her previous condition. After a week on metacam her stool was loose so I stopped and everything went back to normal. Her eyes became worse so on 29th March vet said to put her back on very low dose to try it out again. Started with 2K dose upped to 3.5 k dose yesterday. Yesterday mid morning she had diarrhoea I gave her the usual VBS Clay which usually works. This morning more diarrhoea and a second bout which was green. I am very worried. She seems well enough showing as yet no signs of being ill. No yellow in eyes and mouth nice and pink. All she is having today is a little fresh fish and no Metacam. Honey has an appointment at a referral hospital near Newmarket for her eyes on Tuesday.I would appreciate your comments.


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## Al01

I have a maine coon who has been pretty bad with flu. He greatly improved after a course of Virbagen Omega and 6 weeks of baytril antibiotics. We also did the sinus flush and I started him on Lactoferrin immune supplement. After the sinus flush he still sneezed just without the crud but since we started the lactoferrin his sneezing has greatly reduced. The biggest improvement in him was after the Virbagen Omega when he put on 1kg in a month!
His little brother has had 2 courses of virbagen Omega has improved well both times and has put on well over a kg in 6 weeks, this recent bout started after a growth spurt and he was neutered. He still has slightly inflammed 3rd eyelids and his eyes are watering, he is on genticin(Tiacil) eye drops along with Virgan eye drops daily his snotty nose has improved on cepacare antibiotics (vet had ran out of ronaxan).
I am very reluctant to run steroids on him as I want to improve his immune system, we are due back to vet for a check up in the morning so any advice from @Ceiling Kitty would be much appreciated.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Al01 said:


> I have a maine coon who has been pretty bad with flu. He greatly improved after a course of Virbagen Omega and 6 weeks of baytril antibiotics. We also did the sinus flush and I started him on Lactoferrin immune supplement. After the sinus flush he still sneezed just without the crud but since we started the lactoferrin his sneezing has greatly reduced. The biggest improvement in him was after the Virbagen Omega when he put on 1kg in a month!
> His little brother has had 2 courses of virbagen Omega has improved well both times and has put on well over a kg in 6 weeks, this recent bout started after a growth spurt and he was neutered. He still has slightly inflammed 3rd eyelids and his eyes are watering, he is on genticin(Tiacil) eye drops along with Virgan eye drops daily his snotty nose has improved on cepacare antibiotics (vet had ran out of ronaxan).
> I am very reluctant to run steroids on him as I want to improve his immune system, we are due back to vet for a check up in the morning so any advice from @Ceiling Kitty would be much appreciated.


I think if he's improving on the medications, that's positive isn't it? 

I think it's preferable to avoid steroids if possible, as they can facilitate flare-ups of FHV1.


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## Ceiling Kitty

bcats said:


> Sorry if you have received my post. Looks like it has not been posted.
> Re Metacam. You have already posted some information regarding my cat with recurring conjunctivitis and corneal ulcers. The vet prescribed Meticam she weighs over 5k and two years + ago she was diagnosed with Tritricomonol foetus which she had completely recovered from and has had no bouts for a year or more. The first dose of meticam was for 10 k cat there after 5k cat. I would have preferred the injection to begin with because of her previous condition. After a week on metacam her stool was loose so I stopped and everything went back to normal. Her eyes became worse so on 29th March vet said to put her back on very low dose to try it out again. Started with 2K dose upped to 3.5 k dose yesterday. Yesterday mid morning she had diarrhoea I gave her the usual VBS Clay which usually works. This morning more diarrhoea and a second bout which was green. I am very worried. She seems well enough showing as yet no signs of being ill. No yellow in eyes and mouth nice and pink. All she is having today is a little fresh fish and no Metacam. Honey has an appointment at a referral hospital near Newmarket for her eyes on Tuesday.I would appreciate your comments.


It could be that the Metacam doesn't agree with her - it seems likely if she's had two episodes of diarrhoea directly associated with the Metacam. I think it is wise not to give any today if she has a tummy upset. Have you spoken to the vet to update them?


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## bcats

Honey has an appointment at a veterinary hospital tomorrow near Newmarket. As she has had no recurrence of the diarrhea so far today I decided to wait until tomorrow. I have put her back onto her full dose of homeopathic pills that I get from Richard Allport for the digestive problem she had over two years ago plus VBS Clay. A bland diet of freshly cooked fish and butternut squash. This evening she is much better even her eyes are less inflamed and more open. I am using the Assisis Euphrasia eye drops as a eye wipe. Decided today after testing them on my eyes that I would drop them into her eyes as directed. They are very soothing. Obviously still using the Isathal. After what I have read about Metacam surprised my vet proscribed it knowing Honeys past history. She wants to eat so no harm done I hope.
Thanks for your response.


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## Paddypaws

Thanks again for this sticky @Ceiling Kitty . Woody and I are off to the vet again this morning as his snotty nose issues remain unresolved and he even had a nose bleed yesterday which is making me worry that there is something sinister going on.


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## Al01

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I think if he's improving on the medications, that's positive isn't it?
> 
> I think it's preferable to avoid steroids if possible, as they can facilitate flare-ups of FHV1.


We had the senior vet at the practice yesterday who hadn't seen Everest in a week, he could not believe the difference in him. Told me to continue with both sets of eye drops using the antiviral once a day and the genticin twice a day to finish clearing up his eyes. His conjuctiva is now pale pink and his glands are going down this morning they are almost normal size. So the vet has said unless I have concerns he doesn't need to see him. he also noted that the Lactoferrin supplement was working well for both my boys and told me to continue using it.

Thats interesting re the FHV1 and steroids as we had actually gave Everest an anti inflammatory shot during teething as his mouth was very sore and glands up and about 14 days later he had caught Jack's flu.


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## bcats

bcats said:


> Honey has an appointment at a veterinary hospital tomorrow near Newmarket. As she has had no recurrence of the diarrhea so far today I decided to wait until tomorrow. I have put her back onto her full dose of homeopathic pills that I get from Richard Allport for the digestive problem she had over two years ago plus VBS Clay. A bland diet of freshly cooked fish and butternut squash. This evening she is much better even her eyes are less inflamed and more open. I am using the Assisis Euphrasia eye drops as a eye wipe. Decided today after testing them on my eyes that I would drop them into her eyes as directed. They are very soothing. Obviously still using the Isathal. After what I have read about Metacam surprised my vet proscribed it knowing Honeys past history. She wants to eat so no harm done I hope.
> Thanks for your response.


Honey has been taken off the metacam. Difficult now to control her pain and discomfort.


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## QOTN

bcats said:


> Honey has been taken off the metacam. Difficult now to control her pain and discomfort.


Can she be given a different pain killer? Perhaps Vetergesic or similar?


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## bcats

QOTN said:


> Can she be given a different pain killer? Perhaps Vetergesic or similar?


I spoke to the consultant yesterday and she said there was nothing else but Meticam injections which only last 8 hours or analgesic drops 4 hours not to be recommended as it stops the healing. She is more comfortable today. I am hoping the antiviral tablets are kicking in. I have been advised on my posts re conjunctivitis and corneal ulcers to change the Hypromellose drops that the vet has given her as they have preservative in them which causes irritation which I have to avoid at all costs. A link has been given to me and they are ordered. Express delivery. Why oh why do vets do this. So annoying. Honey is also having Homeopathic treatment from Richard Allport. A wonderful man who I have been going to for years for all serious cat problems. He has seen Honey for her eye problem but this was before the resent diagnosis. All Honeys notes have been sent to him from the hospital and I have a phone consultation on Monday. One of my cats had Myelodysplasia life expectancy very poor. She lived a healthy 16 years under his care. lets hope he can do the same for Honey.


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## QOTN

I am sure Vetergesic would not affect healing since it is just a tiny drop on the cat's gum. I have just checked on NOAH compendium and it should be used with care in cases of respiratory distress or other medications which could cause the same. If Honey and her medications do not come into this category, surely it is worth a try to ease her pain. I have found it invaluable over the last two years for my girl who would otherwise have been put to sleep.


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## bcats

QOTN said:


> I am sure Vetergesic would not affect healing since it is just a tiny drop on the cat's gum. I have just checked on NOAH compendium and it should be used with care in cases of respiratory distress or other medications which could cause the same. If Honey and her medications do not come into this category, surely it is worth a try to ease her pain. I have found it invaluable over the last two years for my girl who would otherwise have been put to sleep.


Never been mentioned. The the drops were anesthetic not analgesic sorry got it wrong. These were eye drops the vets use when examining the eyes. The consultant could not offer me anything else. Honey has corneal ulcers which they say are attached. Although she has tested negative for FHV they say she has it. No respiratory problems. She is taking Famciclover for the virus.


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## ZoeM

My cat has been given 0.4ml of metacam this morning and he is now crying in pain with his cystitis. Can I give him another dose? It says on the instructions that they can have double the dose but in one go, so not at all sure. It's heart breaking hearing him


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## Ceiling Kitty

ZoeM said:


> My cat has been given 0.4ml of metacam this morning and he is now crying in pain with his cystitis. Can I give him another dose? It says on the instructions that they can have double the dose but in one go, so not at all sure. It's heart breaking hearing him


Do you mean 4 units? Or was it 0.4ml in an injection at the vet's?

Don't give him any more without speaking to your vet first. Sometimes it's helpful to add another painkiller such as Vetergesic but you'll need to ask the vet about this.

Poor love, hope he feels better soon xxx


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## ZoeM

I gave him up to the 4 mark on the syringe - the vet said the 4kg dose so I assume that is right. Thank you so much for replying @Ceiling Kitty I was going a bit loopy with worry. He's settled down again and I put chicken lik-e-lix on his paw so he's chilling licking that off.


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## melh1979

I am posting in here as the vet has said that our cat Slinky might have IBD.

She has had issues with vomiting bile early in the morning at about 6am (sometimes earlier when it is more like very digested food than pure bile). It started out as being one or twice a week but then got more frequent and we noticed she had lost weight and looked generally in poor condition. We took her to the vet in September and she had a full blood test along with check for hyperthyroidism. This came back clear but showed that her liver was a bit inflamed so she had a course of antibiotics which calmed things down for a while.

We tried her on the Royal Canin Gastrointestinal food but this didn't seem to agree with her (she threw it up) and had the same result with Hill's D/D. So she went back to her normal food of Felix Meaty Loaf and Hill's T/D for her teeth.

She had a steroid injection in Jan which stopped all symptoms for about 10 days and in March she was prescribed a course of Famotidine but that didn't help at all as we were still getting the morning bile vomiting.

The week before Easter I decided (after a bit of reading) to try her on a bland diet of chicken and white fish but after a few days she had a bout of bad vomiting and after that the only thing she wanted to eat was the good old Meaty Loaf! Then (again in my wisdom) I decided to get some better quality food with no grains and higher meat content. I started this off along side Sheba Terrine trays and tried out lots of options including Applaws, Thrive, Lily's Kitchen, Meowing Heads, MACs but the symptoms continued only this time with added hairballs and scratching her head and a little diarrhoea. 

Last week she was very poorly while we were at work and would not eat anything and looked very sorry for herself so back to the vet we went. The vet took a blood sample to test her pancreas and levels of cobalamin and folate - she also had a steroid and antibiotic shot. She perked up after that and started eating again. The vet recommended Hills Z/D which she actually liked which surprised me when I saw the wet food. Unfortunately a couple of days later she was very sick again but not as bad as before. We took her back to the vets on Saturday and he told us that her pancreas was fine but the levels of cobalamin and folate were low which he said were indicative of IBD along with her symptoms. He did an injection of vitamin B12 and a steroid injection and gave us some steroid tables to give her one a day. She had her first last night. Since we got back from the vet she has been ravenous but refused the Z/D so we have gone back to Meaty Loaf for now. We're supposed to go back on Sat for a second shot.

When trying out some of the new foods I kept a log and noticed that a lot of them were chicken based so we are wondering if this is the issue. There is probably some chicken in all the Felix she has had but a lot less than in the high meat content foods so seems to make some sense that this could have caused her to get worse. 

So that's where we are. I guess the plan is to stabilise her and get her on a diet such as a novel protein one and then wean her off the steroids in the hope that the improvements continue with the change of diet. We are not sure whether to go with something like kangaroo from the outset or just try something like lamb if we suspect chicken is the problem.

Wow sorry for the long post. If you have read it all and have any words of wisdom they would be most appreciated!!


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## PetPetPetPetPet

My cat is on oral metacam twice a day. She has passed a little blood in her poo.


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## bluecordelia

I am sure one of the girls who had vomiting cats will be along. Blue had poop issues. I feel you need to look at your cats psychological health. Blue needed to be up high(near the roof to feel safe). I eventually let her outside. 

I went for raw after months of explosive episodes. I had come to a sort of plateau where she was so unsettled and upset. 

We now feed high protein wet and raw.


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## melh1979

I forgot to say that Slinky is at least 13/14 - we have had her 12 years this summer and she was at least 2 when we got her.

Hi @bluecordelia I wondered what makes you mention her psychological health? We hadn't really thought of this as a factor so I'm curious. She has had problems with peeing in inappropriate places (eg carpet, rugs) for a long time now which we put down to stress or nerves as she will often do it if we have workmen in the house and it first started when we were doing an extension. She has also over-groomed her belly to the point that at times she has lost all the fur - we also thought that was stress related but since we switched to a sensitive washing liquid it has cleared up.

She isn't an outdoor cat. We are happy for her to go out but she doesn't much - only if we are outside or she wants grass!


----------



## nicolaa123

Hello I have a back end ibd cat so not up on the vomiting type.

Things mine has had done

Full bloods including epi test
Three day pooled stool test for everything
Ultra scan to look for inflation
Also pinch biopsies 

He has been to a referral vet who repeated most tests and its 99.9% likely ibd.
He had chronic symptoms and huge weight loss and he was in a sorry state.

Things to try

Exclusion diet (nothing cat has eaten before like kangaroo, reindeer check the add ins too). This should be for a good period of time then a slow intro of other foods with any symptoms noted.

You can also try a raw diet as its noted it really helps with food sensitivity issues

Pro biopics and pre bio tics can help (made my cat worse but others it's helped)

Meds, a course of b12 can help with appetite etc
Metronidazole antibiotic and anti inflammatory
Steroids (not my preferred choice
Immunosuppressive drugs (mine is on)

You need to really be able to work with your vet on this so very important they listen to you and you work together.

If there is a sign of stress, I think it's called zykleiene? You can get and it's certainly worth speaking to your vet about.

If was me I would start with food and the stress aspect to see if it's a food sensitivity issue or even stress related.

Hth


----------



## Harry101

Hello, my cat in the last few weeks has had her 3rd bowt of cystitis since 2012. She is also been diabetic for 3 and half years. The vet carried out a full bladder examination and xray and thankfully no growth or stones. He said her kidneys were fine and ran a urine test and has said she has sterile cystitis. Sophie is now on metacam everyday on a low dosage 3.5 for her weight of 4.75 and on yuralieve pills as well as her normal W/D dry food. My concern and query is that the vet and the websites have said it is good for her to drink more and i know she is drinking around the same as i measure her water and food daily to monitor her diabetes in take in proportion which other. She just seems to be peeing more often but not in small drops just normal flow nor is it excessive. Just she use to pee about every 3 to 4 hours and now its about every 1-2 hours during the day. I read on website that it is good for her to pee as it clears the urine out of the bladder, im just worried it has increased, but could this be because of the yuralieve pills and metcam or is this just the process after a scan and full examination. I cannot find any websites that say what to expect after diagnoses and during treatment, thanks for any help and advice. I just need to know if it is normal for metacam and yurelieve to make her pee more often and that it is doing what it is meant too?


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## melh1979

Hi @nicolaa123 thanks. She has has full blood tests (including thyroid & pancreas) which have not shown anything apart from low levels of Cobalamin and Folate which we were told is indicative of her intestines not absorbing nutrients sufficiently. Her weight loss despite no loss of appetite supports this (in Oct 2014 I think she was about 4.3kg, Sep 2015 she was down to 3.3kg, in Jan she was 3.0kg and has been stable up till she was sick last week when she went down to 2.7kg, today she is 2.9kg).

She has had no issues since we started on the steroid tablets on Sunday. We are seeing the vet on Sat for another B12 injection so we will discuss where to go next. I don't think Slinky will eat the Z/D again so will look at getting some of the Kangaroo Catz Finefood from Zooplus and will mention it to the vet. Whether she'll like it though is another matter! Hopefully we will be able to wean her off the steroids if the food helps..

We will also speak to the vet whether it's worth doing an untrasound or anything else. I'm hesitant to do anything that involves her being sedated though.

I will also look into the stress medication you mention although it must be more than that due to her weight loss, nutrient deficiency, and the fact the steroids have helped but it may well be a factor.


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## nicolaa123

Epi test is specific and will not have been tested for in full bloods unless asked for, it's more common in cats than most vets know so you have to ask for it specially to rule epi out.

You can also get food from vet concept it's a German company the delivery is very cheap and I've used them for a long time, they offer kangaroo, reindeer, goat, horse etc etc.

Stress Is a very hard factor as how do we actually know when our cats are stressed and how it manifests in our cats.

When my cat is in pain he purrs..

With Riley he has only now ever best tolerated kangaroo and despite other meats it just goes through him!

Also to note there is no cure for ibd we just have to manage it the best we can!

Riley's liver is not behaving at the moment ibd can lead to problems there and the pancrease so I am monitoring with blood tests currently.


----------



## melh1979

I have just checked the test she had and yes it was just an fPL test which is for pancreatitis and didn't include the TLI test needed for EPI. I shall mention it to the vet to she what she thinks. I presume that the fact that the pancreatitis test was okay then this doesn't rule out EPI?

I have looked on Vet Concept but I think for a smaller order Zooplus is better value for money. I don't want to buy too much to start with in case she doesn't eat it! Although Vet Concept does have more novel choices so I could get a selection. What is the texture of the food? She prefers more pate type foods.

What you say about stress is true. Of course psychological issues can manifest in physical symptoms. I'd just never considered it before despite Slinky's prior issues.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

https://www.compassionunderstood.com


----------



## melh1979

How long after eating a food can a cat have a reaction to it? If we change food and she reacts to it do we assume it's the new food and stop or carry on in case it's still the old food in her system? Although if she is sick after eating the new food she will most likely refuse it after that anyway!


----------



## nicolaa123

Epi is a specific test.

Food wise any food should be introduced very slowly with these cats, I usually start with half a teaspoon and gage reaction. I would not stop if there was an initial reaction but try again, it's a tough thing but you need to find a base food.

Just remember when you order any food to make sure it's a single novel protein and grain free, make a note of the add ons in the food also.

When I started Riley with kangaroo I started slowly and his body along the years has reacted and we still get bouts of diarreah but more importantly for me is that with his medication he is getting more from the food, he is much healthier and happier and now a good weight again.

With ibd food or even meds will never cure the cat but you can manage the symptoms, so your cat will still vomit but you will be able to manage other symptoms and reduce the vomiting.

Riley has diarreah still and we go through cycles he can be great for weeks then bam! It can be awful! But as I said his weight is stable he looks so healthy and if he didn't have liver problems right now he would only be at the vets twice a year for a meds check.



melh1979 said:


> How long after eating a food can a cat have a reaction to it? If we change food and she reacts to it do we assume it's the new food and stop or carry on in case it's still the old food in her system? Although if she is sick after eating the new food she will most likely refuse it after that anyway!


----------



## Mrs Trolley

Hi - thanks for the link to that site. I don't think I can persuade my husband that Jessie has reached the end. He seems to feel as if everyone is conspiring against her. 
On a related matter... Our son has got a persistent cough. Maybe I should go on the NHS site with this instead, but does anyone know if that can be caused by a car?


----------



## Mrs Trolley

Edit, Cat, not car


----------



## bluecordelia

Sorry been busy. Blue was an indoor cat. She was from a big litter and likes feeling safe by being high up. She had access to the whole house and we tried most foods and probiotics.

I didn't have blood tests on her. We had antibiotics which helped for a while and I went down the fixing her without interventions root. I tried all kind of options to make her "happy". I was on the internet daily looking for the magic cure. There isn't one however after months of her being upset at not being able to control her bowels I came to a watershed. I had thought the worst and decided that I needed to let her out and feed raw. I had read a lot of American information about the psychological side and for us we needed something.

Blue always had loose stools. As a kitten, it was rare for her to have a formed one. I have a sneaky suspicion that early weaning might have set her up for the ib journey.

I am so glad you have got some technical expertise off Nicola @melh1979 .


----------



## melh1979

Thanks for your help @nicolaa123 and @bluecordelia

We are back at the vets on Sat for another B12 injection so I will make a note of the questions I want to ask particularly about an EPI test and potentially ultrasound if needed.

If we go down the route of changing her diet we just then have to decide which food to pick. Either get a few different options from Vet Concept and see which she likes, get the Kangaroo Catz Finefood from Zooplus or try a less novel protein such as lamb. I'm not sure how we will get her to eat the same thing for 6 weeks or so though as she does get bored (apart from Felix Meaty Loaf which she will eat till the cows come home!) I suppose if we got some from Vet Concept we could get two novel protein foods such as Kangaroo and Goat and rotate them? Or with lamb there are more options for brands that will do it but that's riskier as it's more likely that could be an issue for her.

She's been stable now for a few days due to the steroids so I'd feel fairly safe trying a new food without there being any reaction - it will just be a case of seeing what happens when we wean her off the steroids. I shall also ask the vet about alternatives to steroids that could help.

I was just looking at the Vet Concept food and they all seem to contain either potato, parsnip, sweet potato etc. Not sure if these things could be a problem? The Catz Finefood Kangaroo doesn't have any of these in it.


----------



## nicolaa123

It really depends if your cat has had them before. Vet concept are grain free but yes they are the add ins

As for rotation on an elimination diet it's just one food only for the six weeks as you won't get that base food, as hard as it is even if you manage 2 or 4 or 6 weeks exclusive on one food you can work from there.

It's hard but until you feed you don't know.

I have put Riley on a week course of metronidazole as he is having a mini flare up, wading his bum and putting cream on his little prolapse, poor boy, but he seems so well in himself..

I will never get ibd!!


----------



## melh1979

She won't have had the likes of potato before a couple of weeks ago as she'd just been fed Felix before then! Ironically she got worse after I gave her "better" food. 

I'm not sure I'll manage more than a day on one food before she gets bored but it's worth a try! She usually succumbs once I've left the kitchen and she realises she's not going to get anything else.

Aw hope Riley's flare up gets better soon. Luckily Slinky has not been that bad until a couple of weeks ago but it's the weight loss that's the main concern. She has been putting on weight over the last week though - which is not surprising the amount she's been eating!

Would it be sensible do you think to start her on the new food while still on the steroids as the old food may still be in her system and then stop the steroids after a few days or a week? I don't want her to be sick a day or so after trying the new food as she won't eat it then and the steroids will control it while we transition.


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## Dianne1

Would've been Molly's 10th birthday today xx happy birthday princess wherever you are missing you sooo much my little princess xx fighting for justice for you tomorrow xxxx


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## Mellowredsa

Wow, and I pet tooth brushing was something invented by the same people who dress their pets in frilly clothes. Not sure I'll get to the brushing bit, but will certainly start off with a good weekly mouth check.

I can already picture the indignation on Tinkle's face when I start poking about in her mouth. :Jawdrop


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## vichy

Lilylass said:


> I wonder if that is diet related OR genetics!


I'm sure it's something genetics. In my home there are two cats. They are 3 years old. They eat same food, in the same dish. And they drink in the same bowl. But my female cat has had thin gingivitis since her firts year of life. He, never. He has a white and perfect theets. I couldn't brush their theets never. Too much stress for all of us. The treats to clean teeths are apparently not very useful. And the liquid into water produces they drink less. And my vet said to me that my cat was too young for a professional cleaning. She has a permanent red line, light. And tartar. But she eats, plays and lives normally.


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## tantrumbean

Hi, my cat Eric was officially diagnosed with arthritis and put on Metacam about 2.5 weeks ago, after becoming visibly less mobile and quite obviously achey over the past few months. He is 15 now and has always been very outdoorsy in all weathers, so I suppose it's not surprising that he's showing some wear and tear. However, despite over 2 weeks on Metacam now, as far as I can tell, Eric is not showing any improvement at all and my friend also commented that he still looked very achey. I have seen other pets with amazing improvements within a few days, but in his case it seems to basically be doing nothing. Is this common? Should it be taking this long to start kicking in? I will obviously be taking him back to the vets, but was just wondering if anybody had had similar experiences.....


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## Chloe F

Thank you @Ceiling Kitty my 7 month old Siamese cross has had persistent cat flu, the vets said it would be pointless finding out whether he is a carrier and don't seem to offer any advice on the matter.

My cat Milo has similar symptoms apart from he doesn't cough, occasionally he will reverse sneeze and has even once had a nose bleed. They are constantly trying different antibiotics for his flu and gels/drops for his eyes unfortunately nothing seems to help him.

What would you recommend the next step be? The nose flush? Our vet said if your really that worried then we should do a ct scan but it's really expensive. Also can kittens have ronaxan? Thank you.


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## Chloe F

@Al01 what's lactoferrin?


----------



## Chloe F

@QOTN what happened to your poor kitty?


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## QOTN

Chloe F said:


> @QOTN what happened to your poor kitty?


My 'poor' kitty was born in 2002. He caught the herpes when his dam shed the virus starting when the litter was 2 days old. I did not know she had it since, when my cats had flu, the swab had come back as calici. This is because calici grows so well in the lab it overwhelms herpes even if it is present. (Cats often catch both at the same time.)

I lost 5 in that litter. Only 3 survived so I knew they were pretty tough little characters. Obviously I had to keep him because of the chronic rhinitis and he was always variably snotty throughout his life. We stopped giving him courses of antibiotics because the rhinitis always returned within days. I got used to clearing up snot from walls furnishings, other cats etc etc. He never caused any harm to my other cats and he led a 'normal' life. He was a really loving, happy little fellow. A breeder friend who met him for the first time when he was 12 said she had 'never felt so loved.'

Unfortunately, when he was 12 and a half, he died of a heart condition. By the time it was diagnosed it was too late to help him. We tried for a week but I had to let him go.

From my experience with Finn, I think you can keep these cats reasonably healthy if you give them the best possible diet and environment with a minimum of stress. I would never give a herpes carrier a longlasting steroid injection but two of my old cats (one 16, one 17) have pred tablets without any problem.

If your cat has chronic rhinitis, it is probably the result of damage caused by the initial herpes infection not a current flare-up but, if you read Ceiling Kitty's part of this sticky, you will see there are other possible causes of these symptoms. If you do not know for sure your cat has had herpes, it might be worth testing for some of these other organisms which might be treatable.


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## QOTN

Posted twice.


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## jenny armour

just an update on oliver
oliver is now on steroids as well as canikur and an ant acid.
he was doing ok until he was being weaned off the steroids and the blood came back, so now the steroids have been upped for a month (one every other day). he is also on I/d but I am advised to put him z/d
he has also had exrays which showed nothing untoward only excessive gas. I also gave a poo sample and he has had blood tests which I gather was to do with the pancreas. all have come back negative. this was all done before he was put on the steroids.
oliver is fine in himself and has settled down to the I/d. a little difficult with 7 other cats in the house, but he is segrated when feeding



jenny armour said:


> oliver has now been admitted to the vets to be put on the drip, as he started bleeding again. I did tell the vet that he was prescribed stomorgyl back in nov 14 with the runs and blood and they didn't work then, so I am sure he would have been put on something else, not sure what. apparently he is still on this in the drip and he is being blood tested to see what is causing it. his temperature is now normal but he was becoming dehydrated.
> thank mon for your help
> also I was finishing the antibiotics when he was admitted and oliver wasn't eating hardly at all


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## Chloe F

@QOTN Sorry to hear about Finn he sounds like a lovely cat, similar to my Milo especially snot covered walls and other cats ha! It's so reassuring I'm not on my own, cats protection told me I need to rehome him as I'm putting my other kitten at risk but I just can't do that to him now and were so attached to one another.

My cat Milo has had flu since he was born, he's now 7 months and still hasn't shifted it. He's had numerous antibiotics, drops, gels, l-lysine, probiotics and nothing has seemed to help him. 
My vet doesn't want him to be tested as they all get treated with antibiotics and she advised me to spend my money on medication for him rather than tests as its clear that he has it without diagnosis. Constant runny eyes/eye infections, congested nose, reverse sneezing, normal sneezing and lymph nodes are always up. However he's never had a high temperature and is always eating.

My concern is I don't feel I am helping him enough, they never offer me any advice and he's been 2.7kg since I've had him and he eats 3x a day ( big portions )


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## QOTN

@Ceiling Kitty may be able to suggest something to help Milo.


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## Al01

Chloe F said:


> @Al01 what's lactoferrin?


Its an immune supplement. You can purchase it from amazon.


----------



## Al01

Chloe anti viral eye drops are great for clearing up the eyes I use those and gentamicin eye drops and I have used antiviral treatment for the flu with great results


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## Chloe F

Thank you for getting back to me @Al01 I've just purchased some. Thank you Thank you! Do you think it's better than L-lysine?


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## Chloe F

We always get prescribed gentamicin eye drops they work at the time but as soon as he comes off within a week or two he has white/yellow discharge. Even when he doesn't have conjunctivitis his eyes are so watery it stains his fur. 

Have you tried saline sprays for congestion? CK mentioned it in a previous post. I haven't but I wondered if it works for anyone else?


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## jocat

Hello, i wrote a while back that the vet had given me a weeks worth of Metacam to give to my 16 year old cat, well i gave it to him and all was fine but im not sure if i could really tell anything different with him on a weeks worth but before he has anymore i am going to get blood tests done to ease my own mind before putting him on it for longer.
I think now the weather is getting warmer he seems to be walking and jumping up onto our bed and chair with more ease but i did notice through the winter that the arthritis was playing him up.


----------



## Mrs Trolley

Hi, it's me again. We've been away for a while. and my husband's parents were looking after Jessie, with help from my mum and step-dad. They all think it would be kinder to put her to sleep but no one seems to be getting through to my husband. (This view is shared by my brothers, cousin and aunts, who have all looked after cats. My second oldest brother is a social worker and think having Jessie in the house possess a risk to our Children's health. Jessie used to be his cat.) 


I really don't want his mum to have to look after Jessie again as she has health problems herself and believes Jessie makes them worse. We are going away in the autumn and it really wouldn't be fair to ask her to look after Jessie again. 


My husband is really attached to the cat and doesn't want it on his conscience that he helped put her down, she was a great comfort to him when he was out of work a few years ago. I just have got to talk to him about this email don't know where to start, he just seems to get hurt and angry at the mere suggestion


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## Sacrechat

I'm sorry, I wish there was more I could say. I do think an incontinent cat is a potential health hazard, but like your husband I was reluctant to put either of my two boys to sleep until the vet told me it was in their best interests. I coped with it for a long time. I really cannot offer any advice. It sounds to me like you have no choice except to wait till your husband feels it is the right time. Perhaps you and your husband should have a good heart to heart with your vet. We did and even five minutes before putting in the needle, I was pleading with the vet to give me a reason not to do it, despite the pooping problems. He gave me none, but I still question if more could have been done, even though deep down I know there wasn't.


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## Mrs Trolley

I think you did the right thing by your cats, you shouldn't feel like there is more you could have done. I get a bit frustrated with my husband because he seems to be overlooking the needs of me, his mother and the children because he doesn't want to face the truth.


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## Al01

Chloe F said:


> We always get prescribed gentamicin eye drops they work at the time but as soon as he comes off within a week or two he has white/yellow discharge. Even when he doesn't have conjunctivitis his eyes are so watery it stains his fur.
> 
> Have you tried saline sprays for congestion? CK mentioned it in a previous post. I haven't but I wondered if it works for anyone else?


No I use a powder I put in his food for congestion. I would run the eye drops longer.


----------



## Al01

Chloe F said:


> Thank you for getting back to me @Al01 I've just purchased some. Thank you Thank you! Do you think it's better than L-lysine?


Yes actually I have stopped the L-lysine as my guys are no longer passing the flu between each other so on vets advice just using the lactoferrin to help improve their immune system


----------



## Dianne1

Quick update if anyones interested, I had meeting with Molly's vets Practice Manager & what I was told has left me more angry than ever, basically they never carried out regular Metacam checks with Molly which I already knew, they don't carry out blood & urine checks on cats on Metacam because apparently its not practical they would have to carry out hundreds, they only pre check a cat about to be prescribed Metacam if they were 12 or older and then wouldn't do regular check ups, they would not hesitate on putting a young cat on Metacam. She believes Metacam didn't cause Molly's kidney failure it was a kidney infection that damaged them and was very sudden but on all Molly's insurance claims it states Molly died of chronic kidney failure forgive me if I'm wrong but I was thought that took months if not years to develop, also the most damning thing was that Molly's vet took the decision of quality over quantity many years ago without any discussion with me first, she was sympathetic but apparently I have to accept that Molly was always going to die young, I am furious the official complaint has now gone into Royal Veterinary College Of Surgeons so I'm waiting on them, I don't know the regulations on the prescribing of Metacam or if there are any, getting any honest information on this seems impossible, however that aside the important decisions they made with Molly's life without any discussion with her owner is completely unacceptable


----------



## QOTN

It is odd that the insurance claims state chronic kidney failure when the practice manager is stating it was acute renal failure.

I agree your vet should have discussed Molly's treatment with you more fully but would you really have chosen quantity over quality?


----------



## Chloe F

@Al01 what powder do you use for the congestion? And where's the best place to buy?

My vets won't prescribe me drops for longer then 2 weeks, they said they could do more damage to the eye.


----------



## Dianne1

QOTN said:


> It is odd that the insurance claims state chronic kidney failure when the practice manager is stating it was acute renal failure.
> 
> I agree your vet should have discussed Molly's treatment with you more fully but would you really have chosen quantity over quality?


I would normally agree possibly even back then but I look at Molly's brother Frank whose owned by my best friend he has the same condition Molly and has never had same treatment as Molly his owners decided against it and he is a happy fat cat, either way I was never given the information or opportunity


----------



## Al01

Chloe F said:


> @Al01 what powder do you use for the congestion? And where's the best place to buy?
> 
> My vets won't prescribe me drops for longer then 2 weeks, they said they could do more damage to the eye.


You buy the powder from the vet some people use Bisolvin my vet uses spitulosin.

For a lot of eye infections 2 weeks is not long enough to get rid of the bacterial infection.


----------



## cassie12

Dianne

I know all too well how you are still feeling, it is an absolute continuous nightmare...

Please let us know how you go on with the RCVS.

Take Care


Very Best Wishes
Lisa


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## Dianne1

cassie12 said:


> Dianne
> 
> I know all too well how you are still feeling, it is an absolute continuous nightmare...
> 
> Please let us know how you go on with the RCVS.
> 
> Take Care
> 
> Very Best Wishes
> Lisa


Thank you Lisa still waiting to hear from them but I'm expecting a long process just need answers, miss my little girl every day doesn't get any easier I know you can identify with that.

Don't think I can ever forgive myself need to learn to live with it

You take care too and I'll keep you posted


----------



## nicolaa123

Just to update the thread and Riley's history, weight has reduced to 4.18 from 4.4 in late jan so not good news. Waiting on blood results of his liver and then full bloods go check other organs if needed after the liver profile.


----------



## bluecordelia

Nicola fingers crossed for your boy xx


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## nicolaa123

Thanks all ok liver profile better not where it needs to be but better, but his cholesterol is 8.7??????


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## bluecordelia

Heck is it a diet then?? Or statins???
X


----------



## BandB

My boy has real issues and I've had him back today. I think he'll need dental work soon. The vet indicated he might have FIV because he was a rescue but reading this article it appears most cats have these issues.


----------



## Cookieandme

Cookieandme said:


> Yes you are right, brushing isn't an option with Cookie but we have always just licked logic from finger. As I mentioned I think it is down to me as I have been a it lax with her since Ike arrived. I suspect the arrival of Ike did affect her, she had a spate of over grooming and I think the flare up might be attributed to that.
> 
> I don't mind her having a scale and polish and we can start again, but tooth extraction was always a last resort which I discussed with the original vet at Companion Care who agreed unless she was in pain or having problems eating then best to leave her.
> 
> She definitely isn't having trouble eating as her embarrassing weight gain of 700gms from last year proves


Just noticed I had better update this. Following her scale and polish it was recommended she had a couple of teeth out. I opted to take her to a feline dental specialist and once the X-rays had been taken, her teeth were found to a lot worse than we had originally thought.

She had several RL's and the result was she had all but her canine teeth removed in October. She had a follow up with Dr Smithson in February and she will have 6 monthly check at the vets from now on. She has no problem eating her raw food although I do cut the meat up in to smaller pieces.


----------



## vichy

BandB said:


> My boy has real issues and I've had him back today. I think he'll need dental work soon. The vet indicated he might have FIV because he was a rescue but reading this article it appears most cats have these issues.


Most cats have dental problems at some point of their lives, usually due to not having dental hygiene but some diseases may aggravate.

I've been testing this during these weeks with my cat and seems to have get better. She had only a thin red line, nothing serious yet.
https://www.amazon.com/Plaque-Off-Cats-40g-Formulation/dp/B004EA2OBK?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0


----------



## BandB

Thank you I'll look into this. I want to avoid having teeth taken out he's only 2.5 years


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## jocat

My cat has just been put on a weeks metacam again with some antibiotics as he has been pawing at his mouth after he eats and when he yawned a few days ago i noticed a lump in his mouth, i took him vets and they did blood tests, everything was normal with the bloods only they said he seems to be a little bit anemic, so on Weds he will be getting sedated so they can take a sample from the lump to see what it is and also to check to see if there are any teeth that need to come out as he has gingivitis so they will be checking for any infections. I just hope he will be ok at 16 years old.


----------



## BundysMum

Hi, I've noticed that our re-homed BSH has some very obvious brownish tartar on his his. He's six and relatively new to our home ....just over 3 months. He's never had his teeth cleaned and although I'd like to start I am concerned it will stress him out a lot. Has anyone ever started brushing with an older cat and could give me any tips?xx


----------



## SophieBear

Can anyone recommend a good substitute Dental Gel / Or Treats/Sticks/Biscuits, To teeth brushing? To keep the cat's teeth in good health, but i'd like to keep my fingers :Cat:Cat:Cat

Anyone tried PlaqueOff and would it make a good Substitute to brushing?


----------



## Mrs Trolley

We are putting Jessie to sleep Friday of this week. I wish I had happier news to share but it's good that we won't be keeping her alive in discomfort any more.

My husband came round to the idea. It was really hard for him.


----------



## Sacrechat

Mrs Trolley said:


> We are putting Jessie to sleep Friday of this week. I wish I had happier news to share but it's good that we won't be keeping her alive in discomfort any more.
> 
> My husband came round to the idea. It was really hard for him.


I'm so sorry!


----------



## Mrs Trolley

Thank you. It's been painful for both of us but we can see that Jessie is not well. The vet will come round to our house.


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## melh1979

Hi all. I just wanted to post a little update on Slinky. 

She had her last B12 injection at the beginning of May and we have reduced her daily steroid dosage from 5mg to 2mg. She has also got up in weight slightly from 3kg to 3.2kg. For about the past 6 weeks we have given her Catz Finefood Kangaroo and Z/D biscuits. The vomiting frequency has reduced but I suspect this is down more to the steroids than the change in food as I did try to reduce it down to 1mg and she was sick again after being fine for over a week. 

We went away on holiday a couple of weeks ago for a week and she was fine during this time having 25g z/d in the morning and 100g kangaroo in the evening. When we got back I wanted to try and cut down on the z/d to purely kangaroo and then reduce the steroids again. However when we increased the kangaroo to 200g in a day she was sick again. For the last couple of days we have gone back to giving her what the lady who looked after her did and give only biscuits in the morning and only meat in the evening. Her husband is a vet and suggested that not mixing them might help. I am not sure why this would be the case though.

I am not convinced that the problem is a food allergy or intolerance and am wondering if the kangaroo could be too rich for her - too much fat or offal maybe? It does seem like any improvement is down to the steroids and that the 2mg a day is just enough to keep her under control most of the time.

We didn't have an EPI test at the vet as she said that the fact that the steroids helped would indicate that this isn't the issue - I am not sure if it's worth doing this. We also haven't had any tests to confirm IBD such as a biopsy - its just been diagnosed by eliminating other things and her reactions to treatments. I haven't been sure about doing this as I haven't wanted to put her through any invasive tests.

We are going to continue feeding her the z/d in the morning and the kangaroo in the evening for the next couple of days to see if this helps. Ideally I would like to cut down on the biscuits though (seems to give her loose stools). Is there any other food that might be worth trying - like a low fat type food? I did have a look but most have chicken in and we initially thought that chicken might be an issue (though this might not be the case).

Thanks for any advice!


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## huckybuck

So sorry to hear about Jessie and I hope that her passing is very quick and peaceful. We always have the vet come to the house for occasions like this as we much prefer for the cat to be in their home and feeling safe. They usually bring a nurse with them and are patient, compassionate and gentle. Euthanasia can be done in a couple of ways so it may be worth talking this through with your vet first.


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## Mrs Trolley

thank you. We're both nervous about Friday. My husband just asked me if we're doing the right thing; I didn't know what to say.


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## nicolaa123

Kangaroo is low in fat and highly digestible. Epi test always worth while even if to just rule it out.

Ultra scan and endeoscopy are not evasive and always a good idea too.

Other food to try, reindeer, goat, buffalo, hare.

Maybe also discuss antacid treatment? Sorry my boy has the other end rather than vomit.

Full poo tests too is good.

Sorry if I have said all the above before and yo have had some of the tests...... Memory of a goldfish!


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## bluecordelia

We had loose stools too. 

I raw fed. I tried lots of wet foods. The vet put us on dry at first. Logic told me raw would not work but that and giving her safe high up spaces plus outdoor access fixed Blue.


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## melh1979

Hi - yes we have tried antacid but it didn't help! She is currently having an "episode".  Every 4-6 weeks she seems to be very sick and not keep anything down then be off her food for about a day. She was sick with bile before having her tea when I got in from work last night. She then ate 50g of kangaroo (with 2mg steroid) but threw it all up. She then asked for some biscuits before bed but when I went downstairs in the morning she had throw up again. She is now asleep on the bed not wanting food and I am working from home. I am hoping she will be okay in a few hours as that is what normally happens.

We got a sachet of Protexin Pro-Kolin Enterogenic to try her on as we thought that probiotics might help but due to her being ill we have not tried it.

We are going to ask the vets about repeating some of the blood tests she has had. In September she had a full blood test which indicated that her liver was inflammed as it was producing high levels of enzymes. She was given anti-biotics but we didn't repeat the test. She also had a Spec fPL™, Folate & Cobalamin test in March which indicated no problems with pancreas but low levels of B9 and B12. Since then she has had 4 B12 injections so we were also going to ask about testing for that again. I shall also see how much extra it is for EPI test. I guess from there we will decide about a potential ultrasound test.

Unless she is allergic to the rice in the Z/D biscuits I am not so sure it is to do with food. The kangaroo shouldn't cause any issues (it's the Catz Finefood one). Maybe it is linked to the liver inflammation I don't know. 

I really just want to get her stable even if it means having to give her small dose of steroid a day to keep it under control. She's at least 14 so we don't want to put her (or us!) through a load of tests to be honest.


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## Mrs Trolley

Putting Jessie to sleep tomorrow morning. I hope we are doing the right thing.


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## nicolaa123

I would defiantly repeat bloods and at very least an ultra scan and full poo tests then take it from there


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## nicolaa123

Sorry meant to add when the liver was inflamed what was the readings for alt ast and the enzymes. Dependent on what is going on with the liver can try a high dose of ab's even multiple ones and liver meds


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## melh1979

Fortunately she seems to be a bit better this evening and is asking for food. Hopefully it all stays down this time.

I don't know what the actual results were. The vet just said that the levels of enzymes were a little raised which indicated that there liver might be inflamed. The antibiotics did seem to help. I have asked them to send me through the results.

We will definitely get the tests repeated but we might go to a different vet. We shall also think about an ultrasound.


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## nicolaa123

Riley again has raised ast alt luckily enzymes are ok. When you ask for results also ask them what the "normal" range is as some vets differ.

Riley's results have come down but still above normal and his cholesterol was raised which is odd but more worrying the weight loss.

He is on repeat bloods and next results will determine whether I go next step and re scan or even liver aspiration. However I do always consider how he is doing and if he is ok in himself I will wait and re test.


Grrrrrrr ibd


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## jocat

Yayyy, my cat was fine when he got sedated to remove a lump in his mouth and they also removed 3 teeth so he only has about 2 left, hes eating well and has now stopped the metacam.Lets hope he still has many years left in him.


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## melh1979

I got the results from the vets - these are the ones that were highlighted as raised:
ALT 206 U/L 12 - 130
ALKP 114 U/L 14 - 111
GGT 2 U/L 0 - 1
Not sure what it all means but I guess the range is on the right.

Results for Folate and Cobalamin:
Folate ( Feline ) 7.5 ug/L 9.5 - 20.2
Cobalamin ( Feline ) < 150.0 ng/L 270.0 - 1000.0

It is all a bit stressful isn't it? I would prefer to have an actual diagnosis of something so then we know where we are and can treat it but with this we just don't know what to do and it all seems rather trial and error.

Edit to add: I just got prices of more tests from the vets and realised that the blood test she had before was just blood chemistry (and T4) and didn't include haematology or electrolytes. I am not sure what these test for specifically but they are now saying they are relevant for a vomiting cat. I don't know why they didn't mention that before.


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## nicolaa123

So what is there thoughts on the liver are they thinking cholangiohepatitis ? Liver inflation is a bit vague so I would ask them to be more specific as you can use something like milk thistle to help. Plus they should be repeating bloods to check liver levels.

Riley's alt has been double your ones reading but they all use different measures !

As for bloods no idea I just ask for the full works to cover everything!


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## melh1979

They didn't say specifically what they thought caused the inflammation just gave antibiotics. If it's still high when we do another test then more questions will be asked as to the cause. I'm not sure then if there are more tests that can be done to determine the cause - an ultrasound I guess. Whether it is a cause it effect of her vomiting would be a question too.

We'll get the tests redone and then go from there. Will cost over £300 though. :Wideyed


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## nicolaa123

Bloods £300!!!!!!!????????


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## nicolaa123

Seems very high


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## nicolaa123

I would also discuss immunosuppressive drugs too


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## melh1979

Oh no that's for full bloods plus folate & cobalamin and TLI.


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## melh1979

Are immunosuppressive drugs better long term than steroids?


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## nicolaa123

They are better tolerated and for Riley when steroids didn't work and the specialist vet advised them I agonised as I read up on everything but for me they don't have a diabetes risk, well tolerated and they work. But you do have to have check ups on white blood cells.

However a good discussion to have with your vet


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## nicolaa123

To add Riley will be on them for life


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## melh1979

I will discuss them yes thank you.


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## melh1979

Have you had a diagnosis for Riley or has it been more of a case of eliminating certain things and then finding food/treatment that keeps him stable?


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## oethanowen

get well


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## nicolaa123

99.9% diagnosis. I won't put him through the full thickness biopsy as we have pretty much ruled everything else out with bloods, poo tests, scans, endeoscopy's, food, meds etc etc. So don't feel the need for such an evasive procedure to tell me what I aready know.


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## melh1979

We haven't had poo tests but then it's mainly been vomiting. Having said that she's had bad diarrhoea today but that might be remnants of whatever was wrong with her on Thursday.

What did the endoscopy involve? I guess he was under anaesthetic?

Does it help having that almost definite diagnoses as it can't be cured can it? Did it help to narrow down what treatment to give him?

Edit: sorry you've probably did this but what food do you give Riley?


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## Dianne1

Update ive heard back from the RCVS and not very helpful I'm afraid they've said there is no rules governing the prescribing of Metacam it is totally down to the vets judgment, they do not legally have to monitor the use of Metacam in cats although it is recommended, the yearly check up apparently is sufficient, I don't agree! However they did have to get my approval before commencing Metacam treatment which they didn't & gain my consent when sharing images (it has since come to light the photos the vet took of Molly's mouth after the removal of her teeth & every check up for 6 months after that have been used to attempt to get other owners to go down the same treatment route, without my consent or knowledge, she told us it was to help monitor her mouth). We can push further but we need her records which the vet wont give us, ive taken some time to think about it had lovely holiday in Turkey & decided to push on now I'm contacting citizen advice to help with getting her records going down the legal route I believe every owner is entitled to them. On a lighter note yesterday I visited a local NAWT centre & the inevitable happened I get my beautiful 4 year old Bella in 3 weeks she will be treated like a princess and spoilt rotten but my Molly will always be my number 1 girl, I miss that furbaby presence, my only problem is picking a vets practice, I know the one it wont be and I certainly wont be as trusting or gullible with vets, hopefully I'll be able to protect Bella better and pray Molly's happy wherever she is xxx


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## nicolaa123

The endoscopy was under general. It's a long tube up the bum to have a look and also pinch biopsy can be taken. He recovered instantly to be fare. Diagnosis confirmed what I suspected but I had already started treatment as he had gone quite down hill and I did not want to wait before starting the cholambucil.

Riley had kanagroo cat food (only protein he can eat with out it coming straight out). He still has diarrhoea but it's a lot less that when he was on over foods. I still search for other foods but as yet nothing else works!


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## melh1979

Thanks for your replies Nicola.

She was sick again this morning atfer a quiet weekend. It seems almost like when we give her too much Kangaroo she is sick. When she has 50g Z/D biscuits and 100g Kangaroo she is okay but if she has fewer biscuits and over 150g of Kangaroo she is sick. I wanted to take her off the Z/D in case the rice was affecting her but I am hesitant to as I just don't know if it's too rich for her maybe? I know it's supposed to be easily digestible but it does seem like the more she has the worse she is. Only thing is that when she has more Z/D her poos are softer! :Arghh


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## melh1979

Thanks for your replies Nicola.

She was sick again this morning atfer a quiet weekend. It seems almost like when we give her too much Kangaroo she is sick. When she has 50g Z/D biscuits and 100g Kangaroo she is okay but if she has fewer biscuits and over 150g of Kangaroo she is sick. I wanted to take her off the Z/D in case the rice was affecting her but I am hesitant to as I just don't know if it's too rich for her maybe? I know it's supposed to be easily digestible but it does seem like the more she has the worse she is. Only thing is that when she has more Z/D her poos are softer! :Arghh


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## ExD

In the past I've had 2 cats who've died from cancer on their gums - almost identical symptoms of a huge swelling that eventually caused drooling blood stained saliva, and obvious pain. I think its called squamous cell disease or something similar. 
The vet extracted all the teeth from the first one, then tried to remove some of the mass, but his jaw was so eaten away we decided to euthanaise him before he came round from the surgery.
I knew what was wrong with the second one as soon as she started picking at her food and the vet confirmed it. This was a different vet and he advised not to operate, just to give pain relief until finally we decided her life was a burden to her, and sadly had her put down too.
The first vet told me I was feeding too much dry food, and that cats were carnivors etc etc and only needed a meat diet, so I removed it from the diet of all my cats. The second vet advised more dry food for dental health. No one suggested cleaning the teeth - perhaps this is just for show cats perhaps?


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## ExD

Although I see this post was done in 2014, I also see you edited it in 2016 - so I am daring to reply. The kidney route is somewhat risky, and I would beg you to only go down it unless there really is no other way. I hesitate to relate the horrific experience I had, but suffice to say my almost unconscious cat howled (I've never ever heard such a terrible howl in my life) and crawled up my shoulder and fell on the floor behind me - dead. 
Afterwards I researched the internet and found many more similar experiences.
Of course I accept that there are probably thousands more who had a good death this way - but would warn you that it can go wrong sometimes.
(Admin - please delete this if its unacceptable)


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## Sacrechat

ExD said:


> Although I see this post was done in 2014, I also see you edited it in 2016 - so I am daring to reply. The kidney route is somewhat risky, and I would beg you to only go down it unless there really is no other way. I hesitate to relate the horrific experience I had, but suffice to say my almost unconscious cat howled (I've never ever heard such a terrible howl in my life) and crawled up my shoulder and fell on the floor behind me - dead.
> Afterwards I researched the internet and found many more similar experiences.
> Of course I accept that there are probably thousands more who had a good death this way - but would warn you that it can go wrong sometimes.
> (Admin - please delete this if its unacceptable)


@ExD What do you mean when you say: 'the kidney route'?


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## Sacrechat

Mrs Trolley said:


> thank you. We're both nervous about Friday. My husband just asked me if we're doing the right thing; I didn't know what to say.


I hope all went well and you are all coping with your grief.


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## Cookieandme

Not just show cats - do human models only clean their teeth .

Oh and the second vet was wrong


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## Ceiling Kitty

ExD said:


> Although I see this post was done in 2014, I also see you edited it in 2016 - so I am daring to reply. The kidney route is somewhat risky, and I would beg you to only go down it unless there really is no other way. I hesitate to relate the horrific experience I had, but suffice to say my almost unconscious cat howled (I've never ever heard such a terrible howl in my life) and crawled up my shoulder and fell on the floor behind me - dead.
> Afterwards I researched the internet and found many more similar experiences.
> Of course I accept that there are probably thousands more who had a good death this way - but would warn you that it can go wrong sometimes.
> (Admin - please delete this if its unacceptable)


The original post was edited to add a new link.

I'm sorry to hear of the dreadful euthanasia experience you've had. I can't even imagine what it must have been like; I've never seen that happen and I'm sure the vet was just as shocked and horrified as you were.

I have euthanased hundreds of cats using the kidney route, including my own, and would never hesitate to do it again. I have only ever euthanased sedated cats with this method, although I understand that your cat was indeed sedated if he/she was almost unconscious?

Sadly, despite everyone's best efforts, some euthanasias don't go as planned. This can happen regardless of the technique used. Someone I know once had a dog start screaming as they were injected - the same injection given by the same route as they always use without problems - but that's not the norm. It's horribly distressing for owner and vet alike, but it's not the norm.

I don't think death is a predictable event, sadly.


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## QOTN

I have just lost one of my old cats and it was very sudden in the end. His blood pressure dropped so low my vet could not find a vein anywhere but he anaesthetised him before injecting into his heart. That was not traumatic for him at all since he knew nothing about it. Finding him lying on the floor and not knowing how long he had been there was far worse.


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## chillminx

My sympathies to you @QOTN. I had a similar experience some years ago with an elderly cat of mine.


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## Paddypaws

Oh @QOTN I am so sorry that you lost your oldie and in such difficult circumstances.


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## QOTN

Paddypaws said:


> Oh @QOTN I am so sorry that you lost your oldie and in such difficult circumstances.


Thank you, @Paddypaws I expect deciding on the right time was difficult for you with your old boy but, as you know I was in two minds whether I was being kind to keep him alive with his constant sub-cuts. They kept him apparently stable but actually he was deteriorating to the point where he crashed.

The reason I posted here is that although I could only stand by him instead of holding him as I have when all my other cats have slipped away, I had dreaded the thought of any of my cats getting to the point where no veins were accessible. When it finally happened, the anaesthetic prevented any of the horror stories I have heard about other cats, so perhaps it is an option for anybody else in a similar position. I know my present vets have done this in the past for tiny kittens I have lost because a vein is not an option for them and they have to be injected in an organ. I will never forget the cry I heard from a week old kitten of mine when he was put to sleep 25 years ago at a different vet.


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## Sacrechat

One of my boys, Muffin, when being put to sleep, jerked his head upwards and looked me straight in the face. It felt like he knew we were killing him and it left me distraught and guilt-ridden for years later.


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## melh1979

Well we had some test results back and folate and cobalamin are at normal levels and TLI test was normal. However ALT has risen from 206 U/L in September to 622 U/L and ALKP from 114 to 152. The vet says that she can't rule out that this is due to steroids but she has only been on the tablets for 3 months. She's suggested either an ultrasound of the liver or to keep going as we are trying to reduce the steroids and have another test.

I am pleased there is nothing wrong with her pancreas and that B9 & B12 are back up but now worried about her liver. 

She hasn't been sick for a couple of weeks now but she does have intermittent diarrhoea - seems to be that in the evening it is okay but in the morning it is very loose. We have started giving her Pro-Kolin Enterogenic (1/2 sachet a day) so whether it's just her body getting used to this or the steroids or food or something else I don't know. She is having Z/D biscuits in the morning and kangaroo in the evening.


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## nicolaa123

It is so hard, I can only say if it was me and from my experience but I would look at a referral to a specialist especially if ultrascan etc as they do have the best equipment and staff (hence why the cost) but you could rule get a diagnosis or a more likely diagnosis with ruling other things out, and as much as my vet was brilliant the referral vet was a leader in her field in Europe but it is up to you.

For me right now I am a great believer in "knowing" my cat, he will never be 100% but I gage how he is if that makes sense.

A likely diagnosis of anything will open doors of possible treatment, if they say ibd then it can be treated but not cured of anything else then you would have to take it from there.

I'm rambling sorry but you need to have more tests to get diagnosis.


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## melh1979

Yes they said that they can do the ultrasound of the liver there for about £80 but to look more detailed at the gut would mean referral which would cost more like £500. I know it's wrong to think about cost but it seems like a lot of money when it might not give us any answers or just leave us with more questions. There is a larger vets nearby where our neighbour works so we are going to ask them if they would be able to look at the gut as well.

I get what you mean about "knowing" your cat. To me, Slinky seems her normal self apart from the occasional vomiting and diarrhoea. I guess that adds to our uncertainty about what to do now. If a scan or anything else shows us that there is something that can't be cured or treated in any way where do we go from there. Then again if there is something that can be treated and we don't find out about it until too late then I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. It's hard weighing up what's best for her. I don't want to do anything that will stress her out in any way. We will at least do a scan of the liver - hopefully it can be done under sedation - it's what happens after that I am worried about!

Now I'm rambling!


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## nicolaa123

For me I had to rule everything else out to get to ibd and we do have liver issues at the moment and also we do have loosing weight issues but I know what he has and can treat him. Evasive surgery I will avoid unless its absolutely needed but scans and endeoscopy's are not evasive so I would have one done.

If Riley continues to have weigh loss and his liver worsens and in himself worsens I will have his liver tested but to be honest as I know what is wrong with him actually would I? Gosh that's a question. 

Only you know your cat but if me I would go for the referral and then they can advise on meds to help


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## melh1979

A lot of things have been ruled out and I guess having a scan of the liver will (fingers crossed) rule out anything nasty in the liver. I presume that IBD and issues with the liver are related? I do believe that it is IBD but you're right without further tests I don't know for certain. They have to be fully under for an endoscopy though - surely that carries a risk for older cats even if it is non invasive?

What would you have tested? A blood test to check his enzyme levels or do you mean more than that?

I am not sure if we will go for a referral but we are considering going to this other vets for a second opinion just in case they see anything that has been missed. I just wish we were closer with our neighbour as it would be easier asking him questions than the vet!


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## nicolaa123

Option to have a liver biopsy for Riley if needed could be the potential next step but I will only go down that route if he needed it.

Yes ibd can affect the liver and pancreas leading to triaditis which is what I fear a lot! But apart from the ibd and his liver being affected his pancreas is currently fine.

Yes a ga poses risks and only you can weigh them up as I had to and will have to weigh up any future treatment. If you trust your vets they can only do their best but it does always carry risks but talk it over with them.

Second opinions are always a good idea and if it is ibd then there are treatment options. I would not like to use steroids long term and to be fair mine didn't react well to them but the immunosuppressive drugs are more tolerated.

It's so hard but you know your cat best. I was so lucky I had an amazing vet who researched with me and looked at mine and we worked together, she also consulted with the referral vets before I was referred about him and meds he could try.

A good bet is worth their weight in gold!


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## melh1979

We have booked her in for the liver ultrasound on Tuesday. Hopefully they will be able to do it with a mild sedative. It will be our normal vet doing it so hopefully that will help as she is always very good with the cat.

I guess we will see what that shows and go from there. We want to try reducing there steroid dosage to see what she can tolerate. She's on 2.5 mg at the moment. If we can't reduce it then options would be changing the food (maybe stopping the z/d) and alternative treatments.

Thanks for your replies by the way - much appreciated.


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## nicolaa123

Ah that's ok. Riley's slight prolapse has caused him some pain tonight poor boy, when he tries to clean he growls  all part of the ibd really. So some cream and the cone of shame and all is well again!!

Do feel for my boy..

Hope all goes well with


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## melh1979

Aww poor thing - can't be pleasant for him (or you!) Slinky's problems have always been at the other end, although recently she has been suffering from some diarrhoea. Not all the time though - one is fine and then the next will be runny. Whether it's food, the steroids or the probiotics I don't know.


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## nicolaa123

You get used to it and just celebrate the days when he is ok.

Hopefully the scan will help shed some light and some meds will help her


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## cassie12

Dianne1 said:


> Update ive heard back from the RCVS and not very helpful I'm afraid they've said there is no rules governing the prescribing of Metacam it is totally down to the vets judgment, they do not legally have to monitor the use of Metacam in cats although it is recommended, the yearly check up apparently is sufficient, I don't agree! However they did have to get my approval before commencing Metacam treatment which they didn't & gain my consent when sharing images (it has since come to light the photos the vet took of Molly's mouth after the removal of her teeth & every check up for 6 months after that have been used to attempt to get other owners to go down the same treatment route, without my consent or knowledge, she told us it was to help monitor her mouth). We can push further but we need her records which the vet wont give us, ive taken some time to think about it had lovely holiday in Turkey & decided to push on now I'm contacting citizen advice to help with getting her records going down the legal route I believe every owner is entitled to them. On a lighter note yesterday I visited a local NAWT centre & the inevitable happened I get my beautiful 4 year old Bella in 3 weeks she will be treated like a princess and spoilt rotten but my Molly will always be my number 1 girl, I miss that furbaby presence, my only problem is picking a vets practice, I know the one it wont be and I certainly wont be as trusting or gullible with vets, hopefully I'll be able to protect Bella better and pray Molly's happy wherever she is xxx


Hi Dianne.

Nice to hear you are feeling a bit better & also going to be a mother once more....great news !

Regarding the Medical Records..the Vets cannot refuse to let you have them.
when we had the same problem with our Vet & Metcam, as you did with yours,we got all our Cassies Records from our Vet.
Becuase your Vet, at the time, are now refusing to let you have the records, that tells me they have a lot to hide.
Push on with it & the best of Luck

Regds
Lisa
xx


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## melh1979

Well we're back from the vets and good news is that the vet couldn't see any signs of any tumours or anything. There is some damage though in the liver and close to the gall bladder so she has given us some Samylin sachets. She couldn't say whether it's linked to the possible IBD or something separate or just age related. She said something about hepatitis but I was nervous as she was showing me the scans as I thought she was going to show me something awful.

She just said to carry on as we are, keep her on steroids as she said this could be helping the liver but try to reduce down to 1mg a day, give her the supplements and then maybe have another blood test in a few months.

I'm not sure this gives me many answers but we'll see how we get on!


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## nicolaa123

It's sometimes just the ruling out of things, like ruling out stuff like lymphoma or tumours etc.

I find when I'm there I don't take stuff in so I ask if I can call the next day to talk it over and digest any information. That way you are in a different state of mind!

Did they scan the intestines??

Could an endeoscopy be done under a local??


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## melh1979

True - it's as much about ruling things out really. 

They couldn't scan the intestines they would need to refer her for that. I would imagine she'd need a general for an endoscopy but I haven't really asked about it to be honest. I'm not sure if they'd even be able to do that there!


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## melh1979

Do you give any liver supplements? We tried putting some of the Samylin (1/2 sachet) in with her food last night and she wouldn't eat it. I have read that the Milk Thistle is quite bitter so I imagine that any brand would have the same response if it's not flavoured.


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## nicolaa123

The first time round I did but Riley started to react to them, but the liver got better, this time around he could not tolerate them at all and he had such a bad tummy I could not give them. Meds wise we are a bit stuck, but if I need to I will try again and just see, but a cat with runs every day is miserable and I have to weigh that up, it's not easy at all!


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## nicolaa123

Tablet wise, always open mouth and get them to the back of the throat so avoid the tongue! I also coated them in his cat food to aid them down, at one point he was on 6 a day....


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## melh1979

Blimey it really sounds like you've had a tough time with him. I've never been able to give her the tablets in the mouth. We did use easy pill but she soon refused those but now she will take her steroid crushed up with food. I tried giving the Samylin with yogurt tonight but she wouldn't touch it! 

Funnily enough since coming home from the vets her poos have been more 'normal' looking than they've been for a long time. She didn't have any biscuits or steroid yesterday.


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## nicolaa123

Yeah it has been tough and sometimes I've cried, shouted, sworn then cried again, but if I didn't have him I'm really not sure some one else would have the patience that I have had, to clean a bum sometimes daily and be growled at or bit if the bum is particularly some, but for me i made a commitment so will do the best for him! He is so good for me tablet wise, the vet not so good ha ha, but it did take time.

Celebrate good poo, or even any good moment!

Riley is 8 tomorrow and one point in his life I thought I may have to make that decision to end his life so every day I celebrate and if I have to clean a bum, put cream on a prolapse, take my own life into my hands with his angry (in pain) mood, pill him, rock him, sooty him, source food, endure his moaning  I do


----------



## Torin.

Okay so Flicka had her annual checkup last week and the vet reckons that some of her stuff does indeed fit IBD (we were't entirely sure previously). I've done a bit of reading about it, but not heaps. And I don't really feel like reading 250 pages 

So could anyone tell me about protein triggers - do cats tend to stay affected by the same ones, or can they develop new ones over time? If yes, is anything known about what causes the new sensitivities to develop? Any information on that line of things would be great.


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## nicolaa123

Ibd is very much individual like a finger print, some do some don't keep same sensitivities (most do) some do and some don't get new ones and I've not seen any research to say what triggers them. It's trial and error with food, min can still only at one type of protein and that still gives him the runs on occasions but he is bett on this than he has been on other food.


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## melh1979

nicolaa123 said:


> Yeah it has been tough and sometimes I've cried, shouted, sworn then cried again, but if I didn't have him I'm really not sure some one else would have the patience that I have had, to clean a bum sometimes daily and be growled at or bit if the bum is particularly some, but for me i made a commitment so will do the best for him! He is so good for me tablet wise, the vet not so good ha ha, but it did take time.
> 
> Celebrate good poo, or even any good moment!
> 
> Riley is 8 tomorrow and one point in his life I thought I may have to make that decision to end his life so every day I celebrate and if I have to clean a bum, put cream on a prolapse, take my own life into my hands with his angry (in pain) mood, pill him, rock him, sooty him, source food, endure his moaning  I do


Aww it sounds like he is very lucky to have you.  Some people would have given up on him after all that. I believe though that when you agree to share your home with a pet then they are your responsibility and you have a commitment to make sure they have a good happy life.

After having her normal biscuits yesterday morning and steroids yesterday evening she had pooed on the kitchen floor overnight  and it was definitely not as normal as the day before (had a bit of a marble effect of normal dark brown and not normal yellow brown and there was a lot of it)!! Not sure how long things take to go through though so whether it's the biscuits or steroids I am not sure.

I had read that cats can develop new sensitives to new food after having them for a long period of time so this is why it's good to find more than one type of food they can eat.


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## melh1979

I managed to get almost a whole sachet of Samylin into her yesterday but today I learn that it has real chicken flavouring in it. As this is one of the things we suspect she's allergic to I was a bit worried. Got home from work and she doesn't want her tea and is outside eating grass. Coincidence? Maybe it's the weather.


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## nicolaa123

Riley has eaten probably 20g of food today too hot for him but he has drunk some water and managed to eat some treats (go figure) 

It is very warm


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## melh1979

Yes it probably is the weather. I didn't fancy my dinner either! I had to give her a little tuna to make sure she had her tablets though. Hopefully she'll be hungry a little later. 

Does Riley eat grass often? Slinky seems to go straight for the grass when she goes out. I can never work out if it's cos she's feeling off or she's just hungry and confused! :Cat


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## nicolaa123

It's my grrrrrr thing with him right now, he goes out and eats grass then throws up then eats grass then throws up then eats grass then throws up. It's always foamy with the grass in it.. Drives me crazy trying to stop him, but I imagine it's to do with his tummy and how he feels, but then who knows why they do it?,?,?, the only thing I can think it's due to a stomach ache he does it, but as they can tell us.......


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## melh1979

It is annoying. I never know whether to leave her to it or stop her. Sometimes I stop her and bring her in and show her her food and she then eats. I always thought it was because they feel nauseas or need to get rid of a hairball but who knows!


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## nicolaa123

Wish I did! He is sat just under the Window sill trying to cool off, will bring him in soon and offer some more food but it is so hot I doubt he will eat all that much


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## melh1979

She's had food and is asking for more but she keeps coughing. Have taken her food away for now as worried about her choking. She must have irritated her throat when throwing up the grass earlier.


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## nicolaa123

Riley has eaten a few treats and now is drinking again.

Can you look down her throat to see if inflamed? Maybe some added water to the wet food will help? If it continues I would give your vet a quick call, I've never heard Riley cough


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## melh1979

It might have been retching. She seems okay now.


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## nicolaa123

Ah yes know that sound. Hope All is better soon


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## melh1979

She's fine this morning! Not sure what was up with her last night - guess it's just part of the fun.


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## nicolaa123

Yeah the "fun"


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## Torin.

nicolaa123 said:


> Ibd is very much individual like a finger print, some do some don't keep same sensitivities (most do) some do and some don't get new ones and I've not seen any research to say what triggers them. It's trial and error with food, min can still only at one type of protein and that still gives him the runs on occasions but he is bett on this than he has been on other food.


Thanks for the reply! Flicka has a main one (cow), but as a relatively recent addition sometimes duck causes problems too.


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## melh1979

I'll be thinking about trying Slinky on something other than Kangaroo soon. We are starting her on the D/D dry instead of Z/D to see how she goes with venison but will possibly try the GranataPet or Feringa Duck or the MACs Rabbit. I know how people feel about dry but she really does prefer this for he breakfast and we only give her a small amount.

Does anyone have any recommendations for wet foods? I have a tin of Ropocat Venison, Rabbit and a Lamb but I am worried these are a bit too high in offal. I think she is okay with Lamb as we have fed her JWB Lamb with no issues and still have a couple of pouches left - CFF do a Lamb and a Mutton which we could try. I can't find an alternative Venison that doesn't also have something else in it and there don't seem to be any Duck foods (apart from Vet Concept which I would potentially consider but would prefer to make sure she is okay with the food before ordering a large amount from there). I have seen a Feringa Rabbit which we could try. Maybe it's best to try Lamb first but then I thought maybe it would be good to give something to match the dry - so Venison, Duck or Rabbit?

Edit - and I also want to avoid rice!


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## nicolaa123

Vet concept do goat and reindeer if you want to continue on the novel protein


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## melh1979

nicolaa123 said:


> Vet concept do goat and reindeer if you want to continue on the novel protein


Hi - yes I was looking at them but with the postage costs and exchange rate it ends up quite expensive and I have no idea if she will like the flavours. She loves the CFF kangaroo. Have you tried (well has Riley tried) any of the Vet Concept flavours - are they a similar consistency?

Out of interest I emailed CFF and Vet Concept to ask about the amount of offal in their food as I had heard that too much can effect some cats. CFF say the kangaroo "contains 70% kangaroo. That is split into 2/3 meat (as muscle) and 1/3 offal such as heart, liver and lungs." And VC say "The content of our wet food cans is 50% organs (lung, heart, stomach, liver, kidney) and 50% muscle flesh." On HKC regarding Ropocat it just says muscle meat is a minimum 20% but I can't find an email address for Ropocat to ask them to be more specific.


----------



## victry77

Urgent advice needed!

Hello to everyone here, I hope you and your kitties are all well. I was hoping if anybody would be so kind enough to help me.

I posted this thread regarding my cat Minnie. http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/what-next-if-blood-tests-are-normal.430637/

The vet has just phoned me with the B12/Folate/TLI results. B12 and TLI were fine but her folate was low (should be 9.5-20 and hers was 8.3). From what I read this seems in-keeping with GI disease higher in the GI tract (she has tended to be more of a puker than a diarrhoea fiend).

What is concerning me most is her weight loss. The vet discussed a change a diet would be needed along with steroids. He is also ordering an ultrasound. At this moment I am not going with surgical biopsy.

So.... there is so much information out there, that I was wondering if anyone would be very kind helping me understand;

1. Various treatments for IBD and what are the pros and cons and things to be aware of.
2. Diet - Wow, this is a tough one. What food should I be looking out (and links or lists you could provide would be so helpful). Also, what should I be avoiding? What do I need to look for on labels? Are there any supplements I should be thinking of? I know about grain-free, can anyone gve me examples? Also, how do I know wha foods contain grain?
3. Given the benefit of your experience in caring for an IBD cat and this was your cat what are the things you would/wouldn't do in his/her care/treatment? Any do's an don'ts?

If there is anyone who has the time to help, it would be most appreciated. I just need to try and downsize all this information and get to the relevant stuff from people with experience Thank you.


----------



## nicolaa123

melh1979 said:


> Hi - yes I was looking at them but with the postage costs and exchange rate it ends up quite expensive and I have no idea if she will like the flavours. She loves the CFF kangaroo. Have you tried (well has Riley tried) any of the Vet Concept flavours - are they a similar consistency?
> 
> Out of interest I emailed CFF and Vet Concept to ask about the amount of offal in their food as I had heard that too much can effect some cats. CFF say the kangaroo "contains 70% kangaroo. That is split into 2/3 meat (as muscle) and 1/3 offal such as heart, liver and lungs." And VC say "The content of our wet food cans is 50% organs (lung, heart, stomach, liver, kidney) and 50% muscle flesh." On HKC regarding Ropocat it just says muscle meat is a minimum 20% but I can't find an email address for Ropocat to ask them to be more specific.


Tried so many proteins goat like the kangaroo and reindeer a course pate. Riley loved the goat but he reacted but I will probably try again as you never know with these cats!!


----------



## nicolaa123

victry77 said:


> Urgent advice needed!
> 
> Hello to everyone here, I hope you and your kitties are all well. I was hoping if anybody would be so kind enough to help me.
> 
> I posted this thread regarding my cat Minnie. http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/what-next-if-blood-tests-are-normal.430637/
> 
> The vet has just phoned me with the B12/Folate/TLI results. B12 and TLI were fine but her folate was low (should be 9.5-20 and hers was 8.3). From what I read this seems in-keeping with GI disease higher in the GI tract (she has tended to be more of a puker than a diarrhoea fiend).
> 
> What is concerning me most is her weight loss. The vet discussed a change a diet would be needed along with steroids. He is also ordering an ultrasound. At this moment I am not going with surgical biopsy
> 
> So.... there is so much information out there, that I was wondering if anyone would be very kind helping me understand;
> 
> 1. Various treatments for IBD and what are the pros and cons and things to be aware of.
> 
> STEROIDS, ab's, diet, antacid, immunosuppressive drugs
> 
> 2. Diet - Wow, this is a tough one. What food should I be looking out (and links or lists you could provide would be so helpful). Also, what should I be avoiding? What do I need to look for on labels? Are there any supplements I should be thinking of? I know about grain-free, can anyone gve me examples? Also, how do I know wha foods contain grain?
> 
> NO GRAINS and novel proteins with limited add ins and an exclusion diet. Always check ingredients or ask the makers!
> 
> Vet concept is who I get food from
> 
> 3. Given the benefit of your experience in caring for an IBD cat and this was your cat what are the things you would/wouldn't do in his/her care/treatment? Any do's an don'ts?
> 
> NO FULL THICKNESS BIOSPY. But apart from that it's what I agree with me vet
> 
> You need to have a good relationship with your vet!!
> 
> L
> If there is anyone who has the time to help, it would be most appreciated. I just need to try and downsize all this information and get to the relevant stuff from people with experience Thank you.


----------



## nicolaa123

My post isn't that clear in the reply.
Tests 
1. Full bloods inc epi test (has to be asked for)
2. Three day poo test
2. Ultra scan
3. endoscopy

Meds
1. Metronidazole 
2. Steroids
3. Anti acids
4. Immunosuppressive drugs

Food
Exclusion diet and novel proteins only and look at the labels. Reindeer, goat or kangaroo goo place to start.

Ibd is a long road......


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## victry77

Thank you for replying Nicola.

She had full bloods done and two of the kidney values were slightly raised, otherwise OK. Vet said in context with other kidney values this was not too concerning. She had the fTLI test for her more pancreas and this was also OK. Vet ruled out endoscopy on basis that it would not provide sufficient results and said if biopsy was the way I wanted to go then surgical would be better. 

Just a few questions if you didn't mind?

1. Steroids - the vet mentioned pred plus another one that I didn't catch the name of, it began with a D and it was one that was given as an injection and last a month. Do you have any idea what this is? I'm having no luck trying to track it down online.
2. When it comes to looking at labels, what is it exactly I'm looking for and what should I be avoiding? Is there any kind of comprehensive list of the best wet foods? The vet mentioned hypoallergenic? Do you have any experience with this?
3. What brands are the reindeer, goat, etc?

Thanks again.


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## nicolaa123

Sorry don't know the steroid name, only tried pred with no sucess here.

You need to feed an elimination diet so fed nothing that your cat has eaten previously for good 6-8 weeks then intro other foods again slowly to see if it's a food reaction.

I use vet concept


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## melh1979

Our cat is a vomiter. She's had all the blood tests you mention but her B12 was low along with folate so had to have B12 injections. The test was repeated a few weeks ago and levels are back to normal. She hasn't had ultrasound on her gut as our vet hasn't got the equipment so would have to refer her. She had one on her liver though which showed some damage so she's now on medication.

She's currently stable on 3.2kg but can't seem to get her up. Strange when you think that a few years ago the vet was warning us she was bordering overweight.

We give 2mg of pred a day but did start her on 5mg. We'd like to get this down to 1mg or nothing but still waiting for her to have a clear week.

Your vet may recommend hydrolysed food rather than a novel protein. But I believe Hill's Z/D is the only wet food of this type and it is a really odd consistency and I wouldn't recommend it. We do feed the dry though simply because in the morning she wants dry and refuses wet. We're trying to get her off it though as I don't think the rice agrees with her so we're trying the D/D now.

We also feed Catz Finefood Purrrr Kangaroo which is available on Zooplus. She loves this and has not got bored of it surprisingly. Odd thing is though that if we give her more than about 180g a day she'll be sick hence another reason for the dry (which gives her soft poos if we give her too much!)

We're looking to try an alternative to the kangaroo though. Just want her to have a clear week and reduce the steroids first though. Every time we think we're getting somewhere she's sick again. She was sick overnight and pooed on the kitchen floor (don't know why she does that).


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## victry77

I found out that the steroid injection is called depo-medrol. As with everything it divides opinion from it helping save their cat's life to it being the devil drug that can kill their cat! I supposed the thing that would concern me is that if their is a bad reaction to it there is absolutely nothing you can do (except supportive care) as it is in their system for 3-4. And bad reactions can be really BAD albeit (like with most things) rare. 

She is still loosing weight despite eating  I want to get her started on something straight away. Hopefully this will happen when she goes for ultrasound on Wednesday as I don't want her left any longer without meds. 

Melh ~ Thank you for responding. I guess nothing is done with regards to low folate then? I mean, if B12 is low then injections can be give, I assume this is not the same for folate?

Thank you for the tip about Hills. The food issue is so overwhelming that I guess you just have to pick something to start off with and go from there. Interesting, Minnie has never thrown up after eating. Her vomiting is usually quite infrequent and random and 9/10 it is hairballs. But she still seems to do it too often, especially for a short-haired cat. 

I've been looking at the foods on zooplus. I do think she is fussy by nature as well as it possibly being down to an underlying cause, so I'm sure it will be a battle to get her to eat the better quality stuff. 

Hope you get the clear week that you need with her.


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## melh1979

Is she having an ultrasound on her gut? Out of interest how much are they charging for that? Ours can't do it in house and said it would cost about a grand for a referral!

I don't believe there is a folate injection- I don't think it's as an important vitamin as B12. There are supplements you can buy to add to food that will contain this but I was told that sometimes these won't work if the body can't absorb them from the food. Could be worth a try but may not be possible if you're going to do an elimination diet. 

Ours had a couple of steroid injections, Dexadreson and Dexafort according to our invoices. These really helped her for a couple of weeks when she went through a couple of bad patches.

What is she eating at the moment? I guess you will hopefully get more answers when she has the ultrasound and the vet can advise on medications or food. We went with the kangaroo from Zooplus simply due to ease and cost and fortunately the cat loves it. Vet Concept may work out more due to postage and rubbish exchange rates but they do have more choice of novel protein foods so you could order a selection and see what she likes.


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## victry77

Yes, it's an abdominal u/s that will look at intestines as well as kidneys and liver. I was told it would be £350-400. Rather than send you off to see a specialist, they have a specialist that comes in and who performs and reads the ultrasound. They basically just call him up and he tells them his availability. Our vet contacted him late on the Friday afternoon and he is coming to do it on Wednesday morning. So, not a long wait at all. 

Yes, I'd not heard of a folate jab. I'm going to ask for copies of blood work, so I can keep order of everything she has had done and the results. 

Right, vet never mentioned the Dexa steroids. He name-checked pred and depo. 

Well, at the moment she is mainly eating Applaws, which is not complete, but she is eating it, so I'm just sticking with that until I figure out the food issue. I've ordered a few grain-free tins from zooplus just to try her with and also hear what the vet has to say about this hypoallergenic. I'll also have a look at the brand you mention.


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## melh1979

That's good that they do that. Our vets is quite small hence the referral. There is a larger vets close by who I think would have someone come in like yours. If we decided she needed an abdominal ultrasound then we'd likely take her there.

The dexa was the injection but it's the pred we give her as tablets. I think that's what's keeping her stableish at the moment. I'd like to take her off them as hopefully the food should be helping but I'm too scared that she will get worse. I just wish she'd put on some weight. 

I think the pate applaws is complete. Ours tried it and liked it until we came to the conclusion she's likely got a problem with chicken.


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## melh1979

Hmm well I am not sure the D/D is agreeing with her as she was sick again overnight. Do they use venison in Felix I wonder - she wouldn't have had venison before if not. Ideally I want to get her off dry completely but she seems to need some in the morning before eating anything else. When we have cut it down she has been sick - maybe due to too much kangaroo or possibly it could be as she then eats dry and wet at the same time, I wonder if this could cause the problem.


----------



## victry77

melh1979 said:


> That's good that they do that. Our vets is quite small hence the referral. There is a larger vets close by who I think would have someone come in like yours. If we decided she needed an abdominal ultrasound then we'd likely take her there.
> 
> The dexa was the injection but it's the pred we give her as tablets. I think that's what's keeping her stableish at the moment. I'd like to take her off them as hopefully the food should be helping but I'm too scared that she will get worse. I just wish she'd put on some weight.
> 
> I think the pate applaws is complete. Ours tried it and liked it until we came to the conclusion she's likely got a problem with chicken.


Yes, it makes life somewhat easier when they have someone come in rather than having to journey elsewhere. Obviously, as we know, the u/s isn't able to say for definite whether it is IBD but it can show up if there are any other lumps/masses and also at least give a good indication if it is some form of IBD. I understand what you mean about weight. My Minnie is so little anyway that any weight loss makes her look like a poor starved stray cat.

Yes, you're right about Applaws pate. I'm currently trying to wade my way through all the info about food.

Sorry to her you kitty was sick. Must be so difficult and frustrating trying to get to the root of the problem.


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## melh1979

Sometimes it's as much about ruling things out as it is in. It's hard as you spend all that money and go through all that stress but it feels like you're not getting anywhere. We will consider having one though if she doesn't improve. 

It is difficult as you don't know if it's something to do with the food you've given or just a coincidence.


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## melh1979

Hope all goes well tomorrow @victry77 let us know what the vet says.


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## nicolaa123

All crossed..


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## victry77

Ah, thank you bot so much for the well wishes. It is much appreciated. 

I shall let you both know how it goes xx


----------



## victry77

Hi ladies

Minnie had her u/s today. Vet said there was nothing sinister detected, i.e. lumps, masses, etc, and also no worrisome thickening of the intestine. He said she has one small area of intestine that bent slightly out of shape but he (and the specialist) felt that this was an incidental finding that she may have always had and not the cause of the weight loss. The specialist will look at the images again and write a report, vet said it could be that he spots something he may have missed when initially viewing them but he doesn't feel that will be the case. Neither felt a biopsy was necessary.

Vet said they will look at it as IBD but as quite minor, he said dietary allergies could be the culprit and to start either a hypoallergenic of elimination diet. He has also started her on 2mg of medrone (tablet to be split) to see how she goes.

She's home now and being a little trooper. My other cat Dora is quite stressed, though, as she can smell the vets on her so is hissing and growling. Should be a fun evening


----------



## melh1979

That's good news - must be a relief to know there is nothing sinister. Hopefully Dora calms down though! Have you decided what you're going to do about food?


----------



## nicolaa123

Great news nothing sinister, with the meds given is that metronidazole? Which is great and anti inflammatory too.

As for food yep an elimination diet is the way.

You can try z/d but the wet food is like plastic and a bit yuck or you could try purina ha (looks like rice krispies)

Or the route of a novel protein, singular protein with no grains and limited add ins.

Like kangaroo, reindeer, goat etc . Only feeling this for a good 6-8 weeks then note what happens. Then you can start other foods slowly and again note any changes.

Some cats can't eat pork, beef or chicken but it's a process to find out.


It is hard and with my own I'm still only on kanagroo as every other protein causes explosions!! He still has the runs occasionally on kanagroo but no where as near as bad on other proteins.


----------



## victry77

Thank you both.

Dora is a drama queen, so will be like this for a few days at least. Poor Minnie is such a trooper, she had a very stressful day but was back to her normal, happy little self as soon we got home. Dora, OTOH, had to have histrionics about it all, even though she wasn't involved and had a relaxing day asleep snugly on her favourite chair. 

No, I think they are different steroids from the ones you mention, nicola, these are called medrone v (methyl prednisolone). Luckily I have been able to get the first two half tablets down her without any problem. She has a 28 day supply. 

As for food. Thing is Minnie never has diarrhoea and her vomiting has always been hairballs, so it has never seemed connected to specific foods. However, most of what she eats is fish flavoured (tuna, slamon, crab, etc), so I have just started off by buying some grain free (Lily's Kitchen) in flavours she doesn't usually have. This is just a starting point to avoid her eating the usual stuff. 

Thank you for the tips on diet/food as it is very difficult to wade through all the information.


----------



## melh1979

We have to grind up the pred for ours and put it in her food as it's far too stressful for both of us to try and get the tablet down her throat!

Ours is mainly vomiting too - started off with digested food on the bedroom floor at 4am  and then it was mainly bile at about 5am. Now it's more often food and hairballs. She never had issues the other end till recently though - sometimes a bit runny, something soft and orangey, othertimes she does a huuuuuge amount usually on the kitchen floor. :Yuck Not sure what's causing it though - whether it's the food, linked to liver issues, a side effect of the steroids or just a progression of her IBD I don't know. Needs a bit more investigation.

If she doesn't get any better we will look into another ultrasound on her abdomen as not completely convinced the food is helping.


----------



## victry77

Oh I haven't even attempted to actually get them down her throat. It's only a tiny tablet that I have to split so I have just hidden it in a tiny portion of her food and then hand fed her. So far, no problems. She also seems to prefer her food when it's given to her by hand rather than straight from the dish. 

Yes, it's funny, Minnie has never really vomited food but tended to have a hairball issue which was rather unusual for a short-haired cat. Sometimes she will also bring up a bit of bile. It's seems like your kitty's poop issues could be a side-effect, but as you say, so many different possibilities and so hard to pinpoint the exact reason.


----------



## moonstone

I must confess that I had never heard of HCM until Tuesday when my 7 yr.old black long hired boy Oscar came in from my garden and began yowling in such a horrendous way that I have not heard before! He was dragging his back left leg and I presumes that he had broken it.
I quick phone call to my vet and we were on our way..the vet nurse examined him and said that it wasn't a break but he was admitted..after getting home I googled his symptoms and it came up with HCM so when the vet called to confirm this it wasn't really a surprise.
He was given aspirin/pain relief and provuk and was transferred over to their main hospital where he had a heart scan and he has heart disease..his breathing was 200 and there was his poorly leg too..he has a blood clot that is stopping the blood supply to his rear leg..
So I was allowed to bring him home on Thursday but he has to be confined (which he hates and is miserable) he is eating/drinking/pooing/peeing normally so no worries there and his leg is improving as I was told that here was no blood supply and he would need it amputated but obviously his heart would be of concern..he is standing on this leg now and it feels warm to touch so I think the blood supply may have returned (hopefully) his breathing is normal and he seems calm now he is home although he was very stressed at the vet's..we have to go back on Tuesday for a check up and to decide if his leg will have to be amputated or not..I think I am going to ask or more time as he does seems to be recovering the feeling in this leg.
Has anyone else had to deal with this? I would appreciate any help that you can give me.


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## Henry Simons

Is it best to use a brush or is there another method?


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## ExD

I'd like to find another method too HenryI cannot imagine how anyone would go about cleaning either of my cats' teeth.
I did try brushing when they were kittens but got so many severe bites and scratches I just had to give up (I had lost two cats to tooth decay in the past and was determined this was not going to happen again). 
So - firstly, exactly HOW do you get your cat to open its mouth? I can easily open the dogs' mouths, but there doesn't seem any way of getting hold of the cat's without getting a mangled finger at the very least. I've tried google without any luck.
If I decide I'm too much of a wimp to actually get a brush in there, what is the alternative? Are there really products available that will clean their teeth by just having them chomp on a chew? 
Anything is better than nothing it would seem.


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## AFKMatrix

Well I have found the way that works best for my MC's is to sit at the end of the sofa with a small gap between me and the arm rest. Then I put the cat on its back in this small gap with the head facing the front of course lol! I then with one had gently prize the gum up and then with the other hand brush their teeth. I don't use these brushes that go over your finger as they are useless imo. I think I have given the details of the brush I use earlier in this thread but can repeat it if it helps.

I know it sound weird the way I do this but it enables me to control the cat even if they struggle a little. Could be difficult if your cat doesn't like going on its back!


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## Greydrift

(A) I wait until the cat is asleep or sleepy. 

(B) The relaxed cat (see 'A') was gradually accustomed to having my fingers around his mouth and gums - until he wasn't bothered.

Then I got a baby's toothbrush, and some Logic toothpaste for cats.

(C) I started out by letting the relaxed cat (see 'A') sniff the toothpaste, then taste it. He likes it.

(D) Then I put a bit on my finger and rubbed my finger around his mouth (see 'A' + 'B')

(E) Finally, I started to use the toothbrush, letting the cat's (see 'A') tolerance dictate.

So...now, he has his teeth brushed, and doesn't move from his reclined sleepy position. There have been times when he hasn't bothered opening his eyes. Then he licks his lips and drifts back off to sleep.


----------



## ExD

You have got some amazingly relaxed kitties, I though at least one of mine was tame but it looks as though even she is still retaining that feral caution. She does sit on my lap and sleep but if I so much as move - say to pick up a cup for a sip of tea - she's off to sit on the floor by my feet. I'll persevere and see what happens.


----------



## FlorayG

*Antifreeze*
one of my cats was deliberately poisoned with antifreeze. Despite the vet knowing that other cats very local had also been poisoned and despite the fact that I said I thought he was poisoned, the vet insisted he had an infection, gave him an injection and sent him home with me. When he was later worse and the vet finally agreed with me it was too late - 3 days in intensive care in the veterinary hospital and a bill of over £1,000 and he still died.


----------



## AmyAS

That's awful, FlorayG, poor kitty.  Deliberate poisoning makes me so mad, I saw someone joking (hopefully) about how he was going to put catnip in lilies. 

We had lilies on the dining room table, but thankfully the cats avoided them, didn't even jump up on the table like they normally do. Maybe they realised they were poisonous.
Even so, we won't be accepting lily bouquets in future.


----------



## Harry101

Please can anyone help. Our cat, Sophie is suffering from stress related cystits. We have been on oral metacam since March and it did seem to help. We have been on Amitripyline pills for two weeks but not made much difference. Sophie is peeing everying either in normal amounts or little drops. We have had some injectiions of metacam and these seem to help alot more that the oral solution but we are not allowed it all the time. Does any know of any alternatives that can be given as a licenced medication that we can inject as this seems to have more of an affect even though the dose is 2ml as opposed to 3.5 for the solution. Does anyone know why this is? Also trying the metacam equivilent pills but they do not seem to work they are 6mg sorry if the mg or ml is wrong wording. Please can anyone help? We have done the four week Cartrophen injection course last month which is meant to protect the bladder lining. We are always using the cystease powder over the food but Sophie seems to be off this as when she is having an off day she only eats food without. Sophie eats 95% dry w/d and c/d food and only licks the gravy of whiskers, will not touch wet w/d or wet c/d, water intake is ok.


----------



## bcats

I am very much against Metacam in any form because of the side effects. My late cat could not tolerate it at all. Don't quote me on this but I think it can cause kidney damage. Have you thought of going the homeopathic route. I have had amazing results on two of my cats for serious medical conditions. I don't know where you are based but I can highly recommend Richard Allport in Potters Bar he has another practice in London somewhere? If you would like anymore info please pm me. ☺


----------



## bcats

PS I would strongly advise you to take her off the dry food if you can it can cause cystitis and kidney stones.


----------



## Harry101

bcats said:


> I am very much against Metacam in any form because of the side effects. My late cat could not tolerate it at all. Don't quote me on this but I think it can cause kidney damage. Have you thought of going the homeopathic route. I have had amazing results on two of my cats for serious medical conditions. I don't know where you are based but I can highly recommend Richard Allport in Potters Bar he has another practice in London somewhere? If you would like anymore info please pm me. ☺


What products can you recommend. Im not sure how to Pm you sorry? I am in Tunbridge Wells


----------



## Harry101

bcats said:


> PS I would strongly advise you to take her off the dry food if you can it can cause cystitis and kidney stones.


I do not know how to change her to wet food, she has been on dry food for 18 years. The vet said because it is prescribed food and as long as she drinks it should be ok. How do I get rid of the dry food?


----------



## bluecordelia

What is causing her stress? I would consider a tradition to any wet food. I am sure someone more knowledgeable will advise re metacam. 

Vets always seem to think dry food is good. That is a massive generalisation on my behalf but if i fed myself dry dog biscuits I would be not in a great way. Try some wet with a sprinkle on top of dry. Cats are meat eaters not cereal eaters. Most supermarket cat foods are poor quality in terms of protein. People don't realise they are feeding their carnivore mainly cereal. Have a look at complete wet cat foods on zooplus. 
I raw feed as well as wet. This might be for another day. 

Will catch up later


----------



## bcats

Harry101 said:


> What products can you recommend. Im not sure how to Pm you sorry? I am in Tunbridge Wells


I am not experienced enough to give you advice on homeopathy. I would suggest that you take her to a highly qualified homeopath. No one better as far as I am concerned as Richard Allport. He does phone consultations but better a visit the first time. One of my cats was given a very bad prognosis at the age of 5. She was diagnosed with myelodisplasia. She lived until she was 16 on homeopathy. 
My last cat had tritricomonofeotus it cleared without the massive doses of antibiotics please excuse spelling. My cats were insured and I had to get a referal to Richard Allport from my vet.


----------



## chillminx

Hi @Harry101 - if Sophie has been on dry food for 18 years then she is a senior cat and definitely needs to come off dry food for the sake of her kidneys as well as her bladder.
She needs to increase her fluid levels and the best way to do this is to have her fluids in her food as cats are designed to do. (i.e. in their prey). A cat on a dry food diet would need to be drinking about half a pint of water a day to keep themselves hydrated fully and there are very few cats who could drink that much water a day.

Many people whose cats have chronic feline cystitis find they cannot get it under control until the cat is on a 100% wet food diet.

I would do as Blue Cordelia advises and grind up some dry food in a clean coffee grinder and sprinkle it on the top of wet food. (Do not mix it in, it must be on top)

If she were my cat I would certainly want her off heavy duty medicines like Metacam and Amitryptiline without delay. Amitryptiline can cause fluid retention which is the last thing you'd want to risk in a case of cystitis!  It can also cause constipation which could further complicate the situation by putting pressure on the bladder. 

Sophie needs a more dilute urine so she is encouraged to pee more often, thereby flushing her bladder through to prevent sludge or crystals forming.

If she won't eat her food with Cystease in it, try her with Cystophan (it may taste different) and also do consider a supplement called D-Mannose Waterfall which several members of the forum have had great success with for their cats who had unmanageable cystitis.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/D-Mannose-...&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=d+mannose+powder&psc=1


----------



## chillminx

bcats said:


> I am not experienced enough to give you advice on homeopathy. I would suggest that you take her to a highly qualified homeopath. No one better as far as I am concerned as Richard Allport. He does phone consultations but better a visit the first time. One of my cats was given a very bad prognosis at the age of 5. She was diagnosed with myelodisplasia. She lived until she was 16 on homeopathy.
> My last cat had tritricomonofeotus it cleared without the massive doses of antibiotics please excuse spelling. My cats were insured and I had to get a referal to Richard Allport from my vet.


I am pleased to hear you had a good experience with the above. Years ago I took two of my cats to this same vet and did not find homeopathy helped them. The treatment was very expensive, though if it had helped I wouldn't have minded the hefty bill.


----------



## MilleD

bcats said:


> I am very much against Metacam in any form because of the side effects. My late cat could not tolerate it at all. Don't quote me on this but I think it can cause kidney damage. Have you thought of going the homeopathic route. I have had amazing results on two of my cats for serious medical conditions. I don't know where you are based but I can highly recommend Richard Allport in Potters Bar he has another practice in London somewhere? If you would like anymore info please pm me. ☺


I'm not sure that homeopathy is a good suggestion for anyone who's cat may be ill.

I've had no problems with Metacam for one of my cats who has been on it for a while. Just blood tests every three months to ensure all is well still.


----------



## bcats

chillminx said:


> Hi @Harry101 - if Sophie has been on dry food for 18 years then she is a senior cat and definitely needs to come off dry food for the sake of her kidneys as well as her bladder.
> She needs to increase her fluid levels and the best way to do this is to have her fluids in her food as cats are designed to do. (i.e. in their prey). A cat on a dry food diet would need to be drinking about half a pint of water a day to keep themselves hydrated fully and there are very few cats who could drink that much water a day.
> 
> Many people whose cats have chronic feline cystitis find they cannot get it under control until the cat is on a 100% wet food diet.
> 
> I would do as Blue Cordelia advises and grind up some dry food in a clean coffee grinder and sprinkle it on the top of wet food. (Do not mix it in, it must be on top)
> 
> If she were my cat I would certainly want her off heavy duty medicines like Metacam and Amitryptiline without delay. Amitryptiline can cause fluid retention which is the last thing you'd want to risk in a case of cystitis!  It can also cause constipation which could further complicate the situation by putting pressure on the bladder.
> 
> Sophie needs a more dilute urine so she is encouraged to pee more often, thereby flushing her bladder through to prevent sludge or crystals forming.
> 
> If she won't eat her food with Cystease in it, try her with Cystophan (it may taste different) and also do consider a supplement called D-Mannose Waterfall which several members of the forum have had great success with for their cats who had unmanageable cystitis.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/D-Mannose-...&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=d+mannose+powder&psc=1


----------



## bcats

I totally agree with Chillminx


----------



## bluecordelia

I also add warm water to my cats food to increase their fluid intake. Cats like body temperature food.

My vet at first suggested dry food was good for teeth cleaning. Bless him!! He now acknowledges how healthy my cats are on a mixed raw/ wet diet. Blue is all muscle. No fat. I had huge problems with Blue as a kitten with loose stools. I nearly gave up but after lots of support on here and trial and error we got there. Vets can be blinkered in their advice on occasion as they are taught in lectures dry food is good esp of prescription food. Some of these lectures are sponsored by dry food manufacturers so biased. Hope this helps


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## Harry101

Thank you for all your replies. I cannot use that product on amazon as it is for humans. I have just squeezed out all the gravy from a whiskers pouch to see if Sophie will lick that. Sophie can get stressed at the slightest thing, at the the moment it is when she thinks she is going to have a pill stuck in her mouth. Even though it is just injection time for her insulin. Other cats come into our garden and I think this has been a cause. If she cannot get where she wants in the house is another ( my brother shuts his door to stop her peeing on his bed) Has anyone tried rescure remedy for pets, does it really work or is it as useless as these other calming products that I have now binned.


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## Jesthar

Aside from switching to wet food, maybe give PetRemedy a try? You can get diffusers for it, and it's a mix of herbs that has a calming effect on a lof to animals, cats included. A friend of mine is currently using it to get an older cat used two the presence of two new cats, and I gave a mini-spray I had spare to next door last year just before bonfire night as one of their dogs is really scared of fireworks - it noticeabley helped him, they said. 

You say you have binned calming products - what have you tried? My senior cat is on Zylkene long term to help her handle the zoomy 3yo cat, and that takes about a month to kick in. I know some on here have had good results with Beapher calming spot on, but I haven't tried that myself


----------



## Harry101

Tried feliway spray and plug in, pet remedy spray and plug in, the spot on thing. All sorts of calming products that are on amazon all did nothing. The only thing that seems to help is the injectable metacam she is like a different cat after that. I have just watched Sophie lick up most of the gravy i put in a bowl. However, tried to see if she wanted a chicken stick treat to see if i can hide her pill in it, she sniffed walked away and peed on my bed. Anything at all stresses her out, do you think having more liquid will get rid of this peeing on beds behaviour? This is why we are on the anti depressants, that do not seem to work anything. All the stress of getting it in her only for her to throw it up again cos she ate some grass before, it is such a stressfull home we live in now. Nothing I seem to do helps.


----------



## Jesthar

If the metacam helps, maybe she's just in pain? My 11yo mog is on a maintenance dose of oral metacam as she started getting very grouchy with a touch of arthritis, and the metacam keeps her pain free.


----------



## Harry101

Jesthar said:


> If the metacam helps, maybe she's just in pain? My 11yo mog is on a maintenance dose of oral metacam as she started getting very grouchy with a touch of arthritis, and the metacam keeps her pain free.


I did wonder that as she is wobbly sometimes. Before she started the metacam in March you could hear her bones clicking sometimes, not heard it since.
It would make sense if she had pain, it would cause stress which inflames the bladder to make her squat.


----------



## Matrod

Harry101 said:


> I did wonder that as she is wobbly sometimes. Before she started the metacam in March you could hear her bones clicking sometimes, not heard it since.
> It would make sense if she had pain, it would cause stress which inflames the bladder to make her squat.


There are other painkillers you could try that are opiate based but are not excreted by the kidneys like metacam but they can make some cats a bit spaced out. I use metacam daily on my old cat who does have kidney failure in the knowledge it could make her worse but keeping her comfortable is the priority.


----------



## Jesthar

To be honest, as she is 18, she is pretty much guaranteed to have arthritis. Combine that with the cystitis and it's no wonder she's having a hard time of it and widdling everywhere she isn't supposed to.

Unfortunately there are no real alternatives to Metacam type drugs (Meloxidyl is the one used with my girl) as it is the anti-inflammatory properties that make it work and that nothing else has - I asked before putting my girl on it


----------



## chillminx

Yes, D-mannose Waterfall is manufactured for humans, but it is brilliant for cats with cystitis. 

Amitryptiline is a medicine manufactured for humans and it is bad for cats, especially one with Sophie's problems. 

Drinking more fluids dilutes the urine and makes it more comfortable to pee. So yes, she needs to drink lots more.


----------



## Harry101

Is there an injectable pain killer available in the UK that my vet will let me have daily?


----------



## Jesthar

The way I understand it, the injectable pain killers are long lasting ones. The daily dose versions are oral syrups, to be put on food or squirted directly into the mouth.


----------



## Harry101

We have had such a stressful time these last few weeks. Our thought are that we are going to stop the amitrpyline and talk to the vet about a licensed injectable painkiller other than metacam as they will not give this to administer daily. It is not fair on Sophie to have her mouth opened every night on a pill that may not even be needed. The metacam liquid she use to love but not recently, the pill form she does eat on her own but not today. Sophie has just had her second gravy/water bowl tonight, just hoping she does not pee it all out whilst im sleeping next to her. It just seems to make sense this maybe because her joints or body is aching and just needs some pain relief. Is there anything that can absorb into her ears, basically anything that gets into her blood not her stomach as this seems to have a quicker effect? Thanks again


----------



## Jesthar

Harry101 said:


> Our thought are that we are going to stop the amitrpyline and talk to the vet about a licensed injectable painkiller other than metacam as they will not give this to administer daily. It is not fair on Sophie to have her mouth opened every night on a pill that may not even be needed. The metacam liquid she use to love but not recently, the pill form she does eat on her own but not today.


Metacam in injection form is not licensed for repeat doses (have a read of the first post in this thread, which is written by a feline specialising vet), which is why your vets won't do it. I doubt you'll find an alternative to Metacam/metacam derivatives - I asked when Charlie-girl went on daily oral doses and was told there isn't one. She has a maintenance dose of less than half her normal bodyweight dose every morning syringed directly into her mouth before her breakfast - she comes and sits for me and the whole process takes about five seconds, followed by her food going down straight after.


----------



## Clairea04

Is she has cystitis why are they not treating that with cystitis medication something like cystaid plus?


----------



## QOTN

Clairea04 said:


> Is she has cystitis why are they not treating that with cystitis medication something like cystaid plus?


I don't think cystaid is a medication but a supplement. There is a difference of opinion as to whether these products are of benefit but certainly worth trying especially those that contain tryptophan. However they are an addition, definitely not an alternative to Metacam which is anti-inflammatory and a pain killer..

@Harry101 it is important that your cat is pain free so if she is still uncomfortable even with the Metacam, perhaps she could have Vetergesic or similar as well. It is a tiny dose just dripped on to the gum.


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## Harry101

Is there anything that can be absorbed through her ear, getting Sophie's mouth open is very stressfull for all of us.


----------



## bcats

Harry101 said:


> Tried feliway spray and plug in, pet remedy spray and plug in, the spot on thing. All sorts of calming products that are on amazon all did nothing. The only thing that seems to help is the injectable metacam she is like a different cat after that. I have just watched Sophie lick up most of the gravy i put in a bowl. However, tried to see if she wanted a chicken stick treat to see if i can hide her pill in it, she sniffed walked away and peed on my bed. Anything at all stresses her out, do you think having more liquid will get rid of this peeing on beds behaviour? This is why we are on the anti depressants, that do not seem to work anything. All the stress of getting it in her only for her to throw it up again cos she ate some grass before, it is such a stressfull home we live in now. Nothing I seem to do helps.


If you have trouble giving your cat pills try Greenies Pill Pockets. They are like putty you pop the pill inside very easy to give cats pills. I got them from my vet.


----------



## Harry101

Hello, i have tried them before, Sophie did like them even without a pill. Sophie can be very picky and suspicious of food sometimes


----------



## Dee1

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I thought it may be useful to post something about the use of Metacam in cats, seeing as it is such a widely used medication.
> 
> If your cat is prescribed Metacam, you may be greeted with some disturbing reports from friends or on the internet. Whether or not you choose to use Metacam should be an informed decision, so hopefully this post will provide a starting point for your own research.
> 
> Two points first:
> 1. The following does NOT constitute medical advice. It is intended to explain Metacam and the pros/cons of using it from a general point of view. You must ask your vet if you have any concerns about your cat or the use of Metacam.
> 2. I'm keeping my own views out of it, by and large. But I will say now that I have used Metacam many times in my own cats and would do so again. I have personally seen very few cases of serious side effects, but this is anecdotal based on my own experience.
> 
> *
> What is Metacam?*
> 
> Metacam is a drug called meloxicam. Metacam is a brand name, and is the first and most popular brand of meloxicam, but these days there are others as well. Most have injectable forms, which might be given by subcutaneous injection at the vet's, and a syrup for oral administration on food.
> - Metacam (made by Boehringer)
> - Loxicom (Norbrook)
> - Meloxidyl (Ceva)
> - Rheumocam (Chanelle)
> All the brands are exactly the same medication and none is better than the others. There are differences in price, however; Metacam is the original and usually the most expensive.
> 
> It is worth pointing out an important difference between Metacam in the UK and in the States here. Bear this in mind if you are doing your own reading on the internet - American sites may give different information to UK sites.
> 
> In the States, Metacam used to be licensed for dogs only and the dog version was used 'off-licence' for cats. If something is off-licence, this means it has not been specifically tested on and marketed for the species or condition in question; it does not necessarily mean it should not be used. Zantac, for example, is not licensed in dogs or cats as it is a human medication, but it is very useful and has very few side effects.
> 
> Nowadays, Metacam IS licensed for dogs and cats in the States as an injectable, but it is the same formulation for both dogs and cats. The oral liquid is not licensed in cats.
> *
> The situation in the UK is different.*
> - in the UK, there is a separate injection available for cats. The cat version (imaginatively called 'Metacam for Cats' ) is less concentrated than the dog version... well, I call it the 'dog version', but it is still licensed for cats. The specific cat version is probably better to use if you can get it.
> - in the UK, there is also a specific cat oral version available which does not exist in the US. Again, it is less concentrated than the dog version and should always be used in cats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, what is meloxicam?*
> 
> Meloxicam is in a class of drug called NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs). This is same class of drug as human medications such as ibuprofen, aspirin and diclofenac, but shine a light, don't give those to your cat or dog, EVER. While I'm at it, please NEVER give paracetamol to your cat as it is extremely toxic to them.
> 
> NSAIDs have three main properties which make them very useful medications.
> 1. They are painkillers, making them useful for most sorts of pain such as lameness, dental pain, abscesses and injuries, cystitis, back pain etc.
> 2. They bring down fevers, so can make a cat with a temperature feel much better.
> 3. They are anti-inflammatory, helping with the inflammation involved in a range of conditions including arthritis, cystitis, gingivitis etc.
> 
> *How it works - technical stuff*
> 
> Yeah, you can skip this bit if you want, but for anyone who is interested:
> 
> NSAIDs like meloxicam mainly work by inhibiting an enzyme called COX (cyclo-oxygenase). This enzyme is a natural part of the body's inflammatory response and results in the production of prostaglandins.
> 
> Prostaglandins are responsible for pain, inflammation and fever, so stopping their production by inhibiting COX reduces their effects, and this is how NSAIDs like Metacam work. Prostaglandins have also been implicated in certain cancer pathways. However, prostaglandins are not all bad. They also have some useful functions in the body. They are involved in blood clotting, maintaining the protective lining of the stomach, supporting blood flow to the kidneys and a variety of other normal bodily functions. This is important when considering the side effects of NSAIDs.
> 
> Just to make things even more complicated (I'm really sorry), there are two types of COX enzyme in the body* that we know about:
> - COX-1 - mainly involved in the production of 'normal', helpful prostaglandins such as those involved in gastric and renal health. It tends to be released all the time at a constant rate.
> - COX-2 - mainly involved in the production of the 'bad' prostaglandins such as those resulting in inflammation, pain and fever. This is usually only released when an infection or injury etc occurs.
> I have written it this way for simplicity. *There is overlap and it's not quite as cut-and-dry as this.* COX-2 does have good effects as well, but these are outweighed by the bad effects.
> 
> _*a new isoform named COX-3 has also been identified, which seems to have a role in the control of pain in the brain and spinal cord, but not so much is known about this yet._
> 
> Why is this differentiation between COX-1 and COX-2 important? It comes down to side effects, mainly. Traditional NSAIDs (including meloxicam) inhibit all COX enzymes, thus wiping out the 'good' prostaglandins as well as the 'bad' ones. This is what can lead to side effects such as gastric ulceration and renal damage.
> 
> A few years back, the COX-2 selective NSAIDs were born and supposed to solve the problem. There aren't any licensed for cats, but an example would be firocoxib (Previcox for dogs). These are designed to knock out COX-2, thus inhibiting the production of 'bad' prostaglandins, while maintaining production of COX-1 and the 'good' prostaglandins. It's a good theory, but sadly it hasn't worked out quite as simply as that in practice; some of the side effects classically associated with COX-1 inhibition were reduced, but others still occurred.
> 
> There's a lot more going on in NSAID development than can be covered here, so I'll leave it at that for now.
> 
> *Using Metacam for Cats*
> 
> The following applies to the UK license.
> 
> Meloxicam is the only NSAID licensed for long-term use in cats. I'll put a bit more about other NSAIDs used in cats at the end of the post, but we'll stick to Metacam here (it will also apply to Meloxidyl and Loxicom if you use those instead).
> 
> Injecting Metacam
> Your cat may receive a one-off injection of Metacam at the vet's, for example to bring down a fever or for a minor injury. The injection is given under the skin and lasts 24 hours. Either the dog/cat version or the cat-only version can be used, but the latter allows more accurate dosing as it is a lower concentration.
> 
> The injectable version of Metacam is licensed to be given as a one-off injection and not repeated. However, under certain circumstances (for example, if a cat is not eating or will not take the oral formulation), the injection can be repeated off-licence. Boehringer do provide guidelines for vets on this - basically any repeat injections given must be a quarter of the original dose.
> 
> Oral Metacam
> This may given as a course of a few days following an initial injection, or as a long-term medication for cats with ongoing pain caused by arthritis. It can be used indefinitely. Only the cat version should be used, never the dog version. The syrup is given once a day with food (either mixed with the meal or syringed into the mouth on a full stomach).
> 
> Dosing of oral Metacam is based on the cat's bodyweight and should only be done with the syringe provided. Using any other syringe will be inaccurate and could result in overdose or underdose. I'll write a bit more about dosing later on, so stick around (well done for getting this far).
> 
> *Side effects of NSAIDs, incuding Metacam*
> 
> All medications have side effects, it's inevitable. NSAIDs are no exception, and while most of their side effects are mild and not serious, some can be. Remember that these are drugs that can be purchased over the counter at a supermarket and are not hugely regulated in the human world, and that deaths sadly occur in people taking drugs like diclofenac and ibuprofen as well. Yet many of us continue to take them. I can't take NSAIDs any more because of my gastric ulcer troubles, but I used to. And if I did take them, they would still work... they just screw my stomach over in the process.
> 
> Anyway, getting sidetracked. The side effects of NSAIDs, including Metacam, are largely down to their inhibition of those 'good' prostaglandins we spoke about if you read the technical bit.
> 
> 1. Gastric upsets. These are the most common side effect and can range from mild vomiting and diarrhoea to severe ulceration, depending on the circumstances. Mild cases usually usually resolve without problems once the medication is stopped. If your cat loses his/her appetite on Metacam, has vomiting or diarrhoea or black faeces (melena), seek immediate veterinary advice.
> 
> 2. Bleeding disorders. These are much less common. Symptoms may include bruising, bleeding into the urine or faeces, nosebleeds and breathing difficulties. Contact the vet immediately if you see any of the above.
> 
> 3. Kidney failure. Cases of acute renal failure following Metacam administration have been reported - these are more common when the medication is overdosed or given to dehydrated cats, but can occur at normal doses in normal cats. This kind of reaction is rare, but of course this is of little comfort if your cat is one of the few affected. Look out for signs of lethargy, increased thirst or increased urination: with prompt treatment (hospitalisation and fluids), many cats can recover from acute renal failure.*
> 
> _*anecdotally speaking, I have seen one case of a young cat who sadly went into acute renal failure following a dose of Metacam, made a full recovery with treatment and has since been treated with NSAIDs again without any issues whatsoever._
> 
> 4. Liver disease. Rare cases of a liver reaction to Metacam have been reported. Symptoms of this can include lethargy and inappetance (generally feeling unwell), jaundice or vomiting. Seek immediate veterinary advice if you see these or are otherwise concerned.
> 
> These side effects tend to be more common in older cats, or those with pre-existing diseases. The risk of renal failure is particularly increased in cats suffering with significant dehydration, or those in shock after an injury or accident. I would like to add that while NSAIDs should be used with increased caution in older cats, being elderly is not a reason to be denied pain relief (especially as it is our older cats who tend to suffer with long-term pain such as arthritis). I'll add a bit more about using NSAIDs safely in older cats further down.
> 
> *Contraindications - when Metacam should not be used*
> 
> There are circumstances in which NSAIDs are contraindicated - that is, they should not be used at all. These include, but are not limited to:
> - hypovolaemic shock (such as immediately after an accident, severe haemorrhage etc).
> - significant dehydration.
> - pre-existing cases of gastric ulceration.
> - impaired liver or renal function*.
> - pregnancy or lactation.
> - cats also receiving steroids or another NSAID.
> - known allergy or hypersensitivity to meloxicam.
> 
> NSAIDs are not completely contraindicated in cats also receiving diuretics (eg frusemide) or ACE inhibitors (eg Fortekor), but their use should be considered and executed carefully.
> _
> *according to the official datasheet. More later on the use of NSAIDs in cats with renal disease._
> 
> 
> *Dosing oral Metacam to reduce side effects*
> *
> NEVER MAKE ANY CHANGES TO YOUR CAT'S DOSING SCHEDULE WITHOUT RUNNING IT BY YOUR VET FIRST.*
> 
> How to dose?
> Oral Metacam is only available as a liquid, which makes accurate dosing easier compared to using tablets. As mentioned earlier, always use the syringe that comes with the bottle. If you lose/break it, ask your vet for another and do not be tempted to use a different syringe as the Metacam one is quite specific. Always give Metacam on a full stomach - either mixed in with the food, or into the mouth after a meal. Giving Metacam on an empty stomach will increase the chance of tummy upsets.
> 
> When to dose?
> Not much work has been done on the best time of day to administer Metacam to cats. Peak effect in dogs seems to be around 7.5 hours after administration. It may make sense to try and time the dose so that the peak effect coincides with your cat's most active period - record when your cat seems most active then speak to your vet about it. Do not give Metacam any more often than every 24 hours.
> 
> How much to dose?
> Always go with what your vet has prescribed, but if you wish to change the dose then speak to them about it. The ISFM/AAFP guidelines on NSAID use in cats suggest reducing the dose given before decreasing the frequency of dosing. Gradually reducing the dose to the lowest effective dose, in conjunction with your vet's advice, is one way of minimising side effects - but it won't work for every cat (some need the full dose). One study in 2008 found that cats given less than the recommended dose for about 6 months did pretty well and suffered minimal side effects, but it was subjectively assessed. Cats that are overweight should be dosed for their 'lean' bodyweight - dose the cat, not the fat.
> 
> How often to dose?
> Metacam has a half-life of 24 hours and is licensed for once daily dosing. Generally, the ISFM/AAFP guidelines suggest sticking to this, reducing the amount given per dose rather than giving the medication less often. Giving the medication 2-3 times weekly risks leaving the cat without effective pain control some of the time. 'Pulse therapy' - that is, giving bursts of medication every now and then for a long-term condition such as arthritis - is not recommended in most cases, but speak to your vet.
> 
> So, if you are looking to reduce the long-term dose of Metacam that your cat is having, it is better to try a smaller daily dose but keep giving it daily. Be aware that doses in long-term conditions such as arthritis are likely to change over time, so be prepared to increase the dose again if necessary. Once again - sorry for sounding like a cracked record - always involve your vet in your decisions.
> 
> Right, all of the following information is based on the awesome ISFM/AAFP guidelines on the long-term use of NSAIDs in cats. A lot of this is going to apply to the older boys and girls, who are:
> a) more likely to need long-term Metacam because of arthritis,
> b) are more likely to be suffering with other conditions such as CKD, IBD etc.
> 
> *Metacam and renal disease*
> 
> Prostaglandins are involved in maintaining the blood flow to the kidneys, so NSAIDs such as Metacam reduce renal blood flow. This is currently an inevitable side effect. In acute kidney failure (thinking lily toxicity, antifreeze, kidney infections etc), the use of an NSAID would likely make things a lot worse. As mentioned before, Metacam can (in some cases) actually cause AKF (acute kidney failure) on its own. This seems to be more common in cats than in people, and is more likely if Metacam is given in cases of dehydration, shock or in older patients. It is usually reversible if caught and treated quickly.
> 
> The role of NSAIDs in CKD (chronic kidney disease) is less clear. In human medicine, some studies have shown that NSAID use can induce progression of existing CKD; others have shown that it does not. Studies that found a link found that the risk was low.
> 
> Some interesting studies in the world of feline medicine have been carried out looking at this.
> - a 2008 study followed cats with IRIS Stage 3 CKD that were given a low daily meloxicam dose for arthritis over a period of six months. There was no progression of their renal disease compared to healthy controls.
> - a 2009 study followed cats with IRIS Stage 1-3 CKD also given a low daily meloxicam dose for 12 months - same outcome.
> 
> So, while the official UK datasheet from Boehringer states: _*Do not use in cats suffering from* gastrointestinal disorders such as irritation and haemorrhage, *impaired hepatic, cardiac or renal function* and haemorrhagic disorders..._ recent research has suggested that the long-term use of Metacam in cats with pre-existing CKD is reasonably safe, provided the CKD is stable and dosing is carried out carefully.
> 
> I should point out that the US datasheet states something different: _Do not use Metacam Oral Suspension in cats. Acute renal failure and death have been associated with the use of meloxicam in cats._ Remember that in the States only the stronger concentration is available, whereas in the UK we have a cat-only version.
> 
> The ISFM/AAFP recognises that many older cats suffer with CKD, and has made some recommendations for the use of NSAIDs in these kitties to make it as safe as possible. These are summarised as such:
> 
> 
> The risk of developing AKF from NSAID use exists, but is considered low.
> Monitoring bloods and urine for continuing assessment of renal function is recommended. Checking blood and urine samples before, during and after Metacam therapy increases the chances of catching AKF early in the unlikely event that it occurs.
> Use the lowest dose of Metacam possible (see previous section of post).
> Always give Metacam with food, and don't give it if the cat doesn't eat. Ensure adequate water intake - wet food!
> Address dehydration and shock before giving Metacam. In the event of anaesthesia, ensure that blood pressure is maintained and consider the judicious use of a drip.
> If there is heart disease AND CKD together, it makes things problematic due to an increased risk of AKF - try alternative pain relief options if possible.
> I will finish the renal stuff with a direct quote from the guidelines:
> _Current data suggest that at least some NSAIDs can be used safely in cats with stable CKD at judicious doses, and that this should not be a reason for withholding analgesic therapy when it is indicated. Further data, particularly in cats with advanced renal disease, would be valuable and such pharmacovigilance studies are vital._
> 
> Part two shortly... bear with...
> 
> Edited March 2016 to replace broken photo link.


----------



## Dee1

Hi,

Poppy has been put on Metacam for a few days. We don't know what happened to him, but in lots of pain and suffered a traumatic blow to his rear. He is only just over cat flu.

I am not sure if he took the whole dose in his food. I might try to put it directly into his mouth tomorrow.

He is the most amazing little boy ever.

I hate it when one of my boys are not well.

Thank you for the info on this drug. Sadly most drugs have some side affects.

Dianne


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## Harry101

Does anyone have any experience of Onisor for cats, the tablet version. Any side effects.
Sophie is on metacam and these pills everyother day, Sophie is squatting a lot every few seconds around the house. She does not seem stressed all the time, she settles on my lap happy, gets up squats on my bed and then settles back down, goes along the hallway squatting the lies down in the bathroom. Sophie is eating and drinking ok, it seems like a habit she has got into. I do not know what to do


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## chillminx

Stop the dry food and increase her fluid intake, to increase the volume of her urine so there is plenty of fluid for her to pass when she feels the urge to wee. It will be so much more comfortable for her. 

Straining to pass a small amount of urine is excruciatingly painful.


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## Harry101

It is easier said than done stopping the dry food which she has had for 18 years. The dry food is medicated the wet we have is not. I have drained out the gravy of a whiskers pouch and added a bit of water which she did like the other day.


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## Harry101

Also she is weeing outside the box a lot, is there anything to stop this apart from the amitripyline which we have stopped far too stressfull for all of us


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## Jesthar

Harry101 said:


> It is easier said than done stopping the dry food which she has had for 18 years. The dry food is medicated the wet we have is not. I have drained out the gravy of a whiskers pouch and added a bit of water which she did like the other day.


What food it it? It will be very unusual if there are not wet alternatives.

Cats are designed to get over 90% of their water from their food, and dry food is only 10% moisture whereas wet food is over 70% moisture. Even young and healthy cats cannot drink enough water to fully compensate for the dehydrating nature of a dry diet, unfortunately.


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## Harry101

It is hills w/d and hills c/d we have tried both wet varieties


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## Ceiling Kitty

Metacam AND Onsior?


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## Harry101

Yes, we have both to use. Not on the same day though


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## Harry101

I dont think the onsior does anything. Sophie had one at 8pm last night but then this morning and since has been squatting all day on and off. It is so strange how she is rubbing up against things, tail raised high then pees on my bed.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Goodness me, that's brave. I leave a washout of a good few days in between NSAIDs.


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## Harry101

Could they be making her urinate or squat more? I thought they were able to help me not think she needed to pee so often? One of the side effects of Onsior says change in urination but does not specify what change?


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## cassie12

*Any Advice Please.

I cant believe I am having to visit the forum again so soon ,its only 8 months since I lost Cassie with Kidney failure due to neglect by the vet.
Now my 12 year old gorgeous Sooty is having problems, he stopped eating a week ago, took him to a new vet for blood test, the results came back with slightly increased liver enzymes & low white blood cells, the Vet rang me with the results & told me not to panic or worry, when I went to pick him up she gave me 50mg of Ronaxan [1 a day] to give him, & to rebook in 8 weeks time,
Sooty only had 3 tablets & was sick twice after the 3rd pill, so i stopped the pills, the next day he fetched up 2 hairballs which he normally does not do as he is short haired, I took him back to the Vet & She told me they could do 2 more blood test, one on an empty stomach & the second after he had eaten, eerrrrr , he is not eating anything, the vet then said lets try him on some different antibiotics first, the Vet gave me 14 x 50mg of Synuclav, his temperature was also high [over 40]..
Then she mentioned we can also try "Metacam" [ Metacam is what killed our cat Cassie & this new Vet knew the story of how Cassie died] absolutley unbelievable, I of course said no chance to Metacam, the Vet did not mention any alternative.
What really concerns me is that they have not told me much at all about Sooty's condition & his chances of survival are, I don't seem to be getting much out of this Vet or getting anywhere or any positive advice, the Vet did not seem concerned about him not eating or drinking & gave me No Advice as to what to do.
We started the new medication Synuclav & he has not been sick up to now, but he is still not eating or drinking, I have now started to feed him & give him water with a syringe as I did with our Cassie, with Cassie I stayed up all night with her for 3 weeks feeding & watering her with the syringe every 5 hours but she died in my arms at 2am one morning, I was absolutely devastated ,I just cannot go through all this again with Sooty, its breaking my heart...Again.

PS / update edit... I have just fed Sooty for the 2nd time with syringe & he has sicked it all back...His Temperature is still high & he is very lethargic & just laying around, & he is avoiding me which is very upsetting

Help & Advice please...I have now No Faith in the New Vet.... I am at my wits end

Lisa*


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## Jesthar

Your vet may not have told you what his condition is because they haven't got an exact diagnosis - the symptoms you describe can apply to many different scenarios, which is probably why your vet suggested extra blood tests, then opted for different antibiotics when that option was declined. And they probably didn't offer an alternative to Metacam for the simple reason there _*aren't*_ any alternatives. I know, I asked all about it and did my research before starting Charlie-girl on it for arthritis.

If you have read the first post in this thread (by a feline specialising vet), then you know that Metacam does three main things very effectively:

1. It is a painkiller
2. It brings down fevers, so can make a cat with a temperature feel much better.
3. It is anti-inflammatory

Now, we know that Metacam isn't an option for you. However, it is so effective that the drug companies don't make anything else beside it for the same jobs. There are probably alternatives to the painkiller element, true, but that's not really the part Sooty needs. The other two treatment elements I don't think there are any alternative options for (I may be wrong, but like I said I did research this quite a lot!), so you'll just have to do your best to keep him cool and comfortable instead and wait to see if the ABs work, I guess.

As to hairballs, he may have brought up some due to ingesting loose hair from where he was clipped for the blood tests - that's happened to me. But a cat being short haired doesn't make them immune from getting hairballs anyway, so you need to be grooming him thoroughly at least once a day to be on the safe side.


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## cassie12

Apparently there is an alternative to Metacam, it called *Onsior,* that's what Sootys has had recently in injection form & also an anti sickness injection
But he is still not right by a long way.... The hairball thing is due to him doing quite a bit of grooming just before he started with this illness

I have had him to the Vet for 4 consecutive days now & we are still no further forward & still don't know exactly what problem is.


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## Jesthar

Yes, Onisor mentioned in the third post of this thread as being one of a few other drugs available of the same type (NSAID) as Metacam:

"Robenacoxib (trade name Onsior)
Onsior is the only COX-2 selective NSAID licensed in cats. It is available as a one-off injection to cover surgical pain, and also a small, palatable tablet. The tablets can be given for two days following an Onsior injection, or up to six days on their own. Any use of Onsior beyond six days, as a true long-term medication, is off-licence and against datasheet recommendations, but there is nothing to say that this cannot be done provided the benefits and risks have been fully considered and discussed. Being COX-2 selective, Onsior should have fewer side effects on the stomach and may be more suitable than Metacam for patients with sensitive GI tracts or those with pre-existing GI disease."

The only time my pair had a sickness bug it was a virus picked up at a show, so just a matter of waiting it out and keeping them fed/hydrated. Lori ended up at the vets on a rip due to dehydration as she couldn't keep anything down even after anti sickness meds, but she was only a few months old at the time. My tough old Charlie-girl recovered with the anti-sickness injection and 2 hourly syringe feeding and watering at home for a few days.

If grooming himself is causing him to have hairballs, you grooing him instead should help with that


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## cassie12

Hi Jesthar,

Thanks for your input its much appreciated
*
Can I ask how did you find out or what tests did they have that indicated a Virus in your cats ?*

Update on our Sooty, he is still very lethargic, it seems an effort for him to walk about & he is still not eating on his own, only drinking occasionally , but he is bright eyed, we will see how he goes on over the weekend, & then back to Vet again on Monday.
Regards
Lisa


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## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> *Can I ask how did you find out or what tests did they have that indicated a Virus in your cats ?*
> Lisa


Didn't do any tests, it was a symptomatic diagnosis. Plus quite a few other cats from the show were also having the same symptoms, so empirical evidence too.

I don't think viruses are easy to do tests for, as they live inside cells so don't culture like bacteria would, and that also means they are protected from drugs. So it was mainly a case of treat the symptoms until the immune system sorted out the virus. Same as with humans.


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## cassie12

Hi Again,
What do mean regarding treating the Symptoms, is it just a case of regular hydration & a little bit of food by the syringe ? 
Sooty is drinking a little bit on his own but not eating on his own, we cant tempt him with anything.
He has dropped half a kilo in weight in 7 days.. from 6.5 k to 6 k


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## Jesthar

cassie12 said:


> Hi Again,
> What do mean regarding treating the Symptoms, is it just a case of regular hydration & a little bit of food by the syringe ?
> Sooty is drinking a little bit on his own but not eating on his own, we cant tempt him with anything.
> He has dropped half a kilo in weight in 7 days.. from 6.5 k to 6 k


Well, in my case for food it was syringe feeding pate food ever two hours. As I only feed wet food the need for extra water was minimal, but Lori ended up deyhydrated due to her age and being unable to keep anything down for more than a few minutes.

Treating the symptoms involved appetite stimulant and sickness supressant injections, plus oral Meloxidyl to reduce temperatures, address any pain and reduce any inflammation.


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## cassie12

Sooty seemed to improve a bit this morning walking around a bit more, still bright eyed, but he will not eat on his own, & now not drinking much at all, we have been giving him wet food via a syringe & water also.. but he's not been sick for a couple of days...as I said before the Vet is not sure whether its his liver function or possible virus.. he has been like this now for 9 days, so we are really worried not to see much improvement.


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## Harry101

Hello, me again. We have been injecting Metacam into Sophie every few days because it is the only thing that helps the cystitis but I have noticed her food intake has decreased rapidly. She has hardly eaten anything this weekend but seems alert and bright. It does not make sense. One of the side effects of metacam is decreased appetite but because she is on injectable form could this take away her appetite altogether? I last injected her Saturday morning and will not do it again until Sophie eats more. It is a vicious circle as the metacam stops the squatting around the house but when she is stressed she hardly eats then. So now we have got a situation where is she is not drinking or eating hardly at all. What can I do? Thanks


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## Mrs Trolley

Hi Sacramist and everyone else who has been so helpful on here. It is now or two months since put Jessie to sleep. I am sorry that I took so long to get back. Putting Jessie to sleep was very hard for my husband and unfortunately I couldn't be with him as it was short notice and I couldn't get the time off. My mum was though and she had been a huge help, especially with doing us a little memorial garden to Jessie with heathers in it and a little gravestone. Or soon is four now and sort of understand that Jessie is gone (though sometimes he thinks she'll come back.) He loves Goodbye Mog and often asks for it to be read to him, and I think it's been a an important learning experience for him. I will try and bring him up to be kind to animals and take them seriously


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## cassie12

Just to let you all know our gorgeous boy Sooty [shown in the avatar] was put to sleep on the Monday 10th.
We are absolutely devastated our 2nd loss in just a few months.
We had Sooty hospitalised last week for further tests, he was put on a intravenous line, had scans, x-rays, more blood tests, but after all this they were still not sure what the main problem was, the Scan showed is liver to be OK, they discharged Sooty with various Meds'.

At home I fed Sooty every 2 hours by syringe, but I could not get him to eat or drink on his own, he continued to decline over the following days, which was again heart breaking to watch, he was obviously on the same cruel pathway as our Cassie who we lost earlier this year.
On Monday the 10th he collapsed on the floor he was panting with his tongue hung out, I rushed him back to Vet, the Vet told me he had acute pancreatitis & jaundice & that he had very little chance of surviving for much longer, We just could not bare to see him suffer any longer.
Our 2 beautiful Bests Friends both Snuffed out in the same year, both at only 12 years of age.
We just cant go through this ever again


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## stockwellcat.

moonstone said:


> I must confess that I had never heard of HCM until Tuesday when my 7 yr.old black long hired boy Oscar came in from my garden and began yowling in such a horrendous way that I have not heard before! He was dragging his back left leg and I presumes that he had broken it.
> I quick phone call to my vet and we were on our way..the vet nurse examined him and said that it wasn't a break but he was admitted..after getting home I googled his symptoms and it came up with HCM so when the vet called to confirm this it wasn't really a surprise.
> He was given aspirin/pain relief and provuk and was transferred over to their main hospital where he had a heart scan and he has heart disease..his breathing was 200 and there was his poorly leg too..he has a blood clot that is stopping the blood supply to his rear leg..
> So I was allowed to bring him home on Thursday but he has to be confined (which he hates and is miserable) he is eating/drinking/pooing/peeing normally so no worries there and his leg is improving as I was told that here was no blood supply and he would need it amputated but obviously his heart would be of concern..he is standing on this leg now and it feels warm to touch so I think the blood supply may have returned (hopefully) his breathing is normal and he seems calm now he is home although he was very stressed at the vet's..we have to go back on Tuesday for a check up and to decide if his leg will have to be amputated or not..I think I am going to ask or more time as he does seems to be recovering the feeling in this leg.
> Has anyone else had to deal with this? I would appreciate any help that you can give me.


I am totally surprised that the vet suggest amputation as normally a blood clot in the back leg (is really painful for a cat), which is what is common in HCM cats but not all HCM cats get and it isn't cure-able and as a result the best thing for the cat is to be pts. The reason why vets normally recommend pts is because the clot can get dislodged and go into the heart through the blood stream. Also being in this amount of pain for the cat is stressful so puts immense strain on the heart.

The 200 beats per minute is a normal reading for a cats heart so why this indicated to the vet your cat has HCM is beyond me and this is why this post doesn't sound right.

Are you sure your cat has been diagnosed with HCM as to diagnose HCM a battery of tests are done eg Echocardiography (ECG), Heart Scan and chest x-rays and they normally do this in a hospital environment not at the vets and this is done by an animal cardiologist not a vet.

The reason why I know this information is because my cat has HCM and all scenarios have been discussed over time with the cardiologist treating my cat and I am heavily involved in my cats healthcare treatment.


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## ALR

It sounds like the aspirin might be working on the leg. It doesn't always work but blood thinners can dislodge a clot. I did talk to my cardiologist about aspirin and the view was there are better blood thinners. My cat was on clopidogrel which is meant to be a better one.

Surgery is a huge risk for HCM cats. And my experience is the least you disturb a heart cat the better. Stress levels are very very important for heart cats, it makes a difference to recovery and quality of life. So you have to make sure he's as relaxed as possible and doesn't get spooked by a lot of things. Easier said than done sometimes.

When our cat had his first diagnosis, we were all exhausted and shocked. So I know how it must feel.


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## moonstone

Thank you for your reply Stockwellcat...yes my Oscar was taken in to the hospital and had battery of tests and was seen by their cardiologist (who happened to be visiting that day) the vet assured me that my boy was in with a good chance of recovery but would need his leg amputated..i was not sure about going ahead with this surgery as Oscar was a cat that liked to do his own thing and I wasn't sure that he would cope with only three legs but when are told that he he could have a good life you have to go with what you are advised (I am not a vet so took the advise i was given) anyway he had his leg amputated on the following monday..i cant tell you how awful it was trying to assure my sweet and very scared boy that he would be coming home that evening minus his poorly leg but he would be ok..as it was he was kept in for two days and when i collected him he looked dreadful ..then i knew that i had made the wrong decision..he was in so much pain and was rolling around trying to stand up without his leg..initially i was told that only his foot would be removed so. It was a shock to see how much had been cut off....not long after getting him home he started to yowl again..i sat with him during the night and he passed away in the early hours of the morning..now i know that i should have had him pts.
When i took him back to the vet's to have him cremated i was told that he had been in heart failure (which they had previously said not) and had suffered another clot after surgery ..i have only used this vet once before and was not impressed then but he came highly recommended by other cat owner's in this area and this was an emergency but iwill be changing to another vet as i do feel that my poor boy did not get the best care that he deserved.


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## stockwellcat.

moonstone said:


> Thank you for your reply Stockwellcat...yes my Oscar was taken in to the hospital and had battery of tests and was seen by their cardiologist (who happened to be visiting that day) the vet assured me that my boy was in with a good chance of recovery but would need his leg amputated..i was not sure about going ahead with this surgery as Oscar was a cat that liked to do his own thing and I wasn't sure that he would cope with only three legs but when are told that he he could have a good life you have to go with what you are advised (I am not a vet so took the advise i was given) anyway he had his leg amputated on the following monday..i cant tell you how awful it was trying to assure my sweet and very scared boy that he would be coming home that evening minus his poorly leg but he would be ok..as it was he was kept in for two days and when i collected him he looked dreadful ..then i knew that i had made the wrong decision..he was in so much pain and was rolling around trying to stand up without his leg..initially i was told that only his foot would be removed so. It was a shock to see how much had been cut off....not long after getting him home he started to yowl again..i sat with him during the night and he passed away in the early hours of the morning..now i know that i should have had him pts.
> When i took him back to the vet's to have him cremated i was told that he had been in heart failure (which they had previously said not) and had suffered another clot after surgery ..i have only used this vet once before and was not impressed then but he came highly recommended by other cat owner's in this area and this was an emergency but iwill be changing to another vet as i do feel that my poor boy did not get the best care that he deserved.


I am so sorry for your loss.

If the vet knew your cat was in heart failure your vet should have never even considered to put him through the operation as this would have put emense strain on your cats heart and the operation would have caused another blood clot. I am gob smacked your vet went through with the operation. Just having a general anaesthetic is dangerous with a HCM cat.

RIP Oscar and run free at rainbow road.


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## jill3

I am so sorry Moonstone for the loss of Oscar. It sounds like you and Oscar have been through an awful time.
You did what you thought was best and you were advised by your vet. I agree I would not use that vet again.
I can understand how angry and Heart broken you must be feeling. 
My 3 year old British suffered a blood clot due to HCM and was put to sleep immediately. The vet was very nice and was very upset but I remember her saying " I am so sorry there is nothing we can do".
I was Heart broken and still am.
You could write to the vet telling him you feel and that your boy didn't get the best care. 
We do put our faith in our vets but now anything important I always seek a second opinion.
Oscar is now at peace and I hope his happy memories of him will help you through.
R.I.P Oscar and run free at Rainbow Bridge xx


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## moonstone

Thank you for your replies! I think the vet was very much influenced by the fact that my cats are insured ..he had said originally said that Oscar was not in heart failure but after he had passed he said he was so conflicting accounts of his condition...obviously i was very upset as said before I have ever heard of this condition or how awful it is.
If i had to make this decision again i would pts but if you are told that your cat will have a good life after treatment then you have to take that chance.
I just wish i had gone with my instincts and had a few good days with him as he did seem to improve after being put on meds then pts.
I think Oscar was badly let down.
I have spoken with another vet and she seems really good so i will be transferring my cats to her..they are all rescue cats.


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## ALR

Oh no that sounds awful. I'm really sorry to hear about Oscar. You did everything you can for him but fighting HCM is a hard battle.


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## Dianne1

cassie12 said:


> Just to let you all know our gorgeous boy Sooty [shown in the avatar] was put to sleep on the Monday 10th.
> We are absolutely devastated our 2nd loss in just a few months.
> We had Sooty hospitalised last week for further tests, he was put on a intravenous line, had scans, x-rays, more blood tests, but after all this they were still not sure what the main problem was, the Scan showed is liver to be OK, they discharged Sooty with various Meds'.
> 
> At home I fed Sooty every 2 hours by syringe, but I could not get him to eat or drink on his own, he continued to decline over the following days, which was again heart breaking to watch, he was obviously on the same cruel pathway as our Cassie who we lost earlier this year.
> On Monday the 10th he collapsed on the floor he was panting with his tongue hung out, I rushed him back to Vet, the Vet told me he had acute pancreatitis & jaundice & that he had very little chance of surviving for much longer, We just could not bare to see him suffer any longer.
> Our 2 beautiful Bests Friends both Snuffed out in the same year, both at only 12 years of age.
> We just cant go through this ever again


Oh Lisa I'm so so sorry for your lost desperately heartbreaking, I haven't been on this forum for a few months so was so shocked and upset, such a terrible time for you and your family, you loved and cared for both of your babies so very much and they knew that

Take care much love 
Dianne


----------



## Jackie C

We made the heart-breaking decision to have Betty euthanised two weeks ago. But the vet and the nurse made this horrible experience as good as it could be, and I would regard it as a "good death". 
Betty had always been quite calm in the car on the way, and I think this helped. 
I had a long chat with the vet, just to put my mind at ease that this was the right thing. Betty was in her basket, facing away from me and the vet. The vet gave her a sedative injection in the neck, whilst Betty was still in her basket. I liked it that she didn't have the trauma of being forced out the basket. Betty turned around and hissed and lashed out, but she was always such a beautiful, sweet girl, that she only stayed angry for a second or two. 
The vet went out and left us alone.
From inside her basket, Betty was looking at me, no anger in her eyes. She just looked tired. I was talking to her softly, as she drifted off to sleep. I am so thankful that I was the last face she was looking at, and the last voice she heard. 
When she was fully sedated, the vet and the nurse came in and took her out of her basket, on her red pillow. Betty was laid on her pillow, sedated, and wasn't aware of anything. I stayed as they shaved a small part of her front leg. Even I saw the big vein, and as a human nurse, I was reassured that this was a big fat vein that could be accessed quickly (silly of me, I know). 
I turned away when they injected her, but was stroking her ear. I turned back, and within seconds, I knew she'd gone. 

She looked so beautiful when she'd gone. She was still the most beautiful girl I have ever seen, she was still my Betty. She was still soft and warm. I stayed for a few minutes, stroking her and kissing her. I even took a photo of her. My husband couldn't face coming with me to the vets, and I wanted to show him how beautiful and peaceful she looked. 
It was a hard wrench leaving her. 

I am still in pain, I still miss her so much. But her death, as sad and awful as it was, was as good as it could have been. I have to stop writing now, as I can't see for the tears.


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## moggie14

Thanks for having the courage to post @Jackie C. Your words will be of comfort to many people who have to face this horrible time. Big hugs again xx


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## chillminx

Thank you for sharing your experience @Jackie C. Such a very sad time for you, you have my utmost sympathy. xx.


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## jaycee05

So sorry for your loss had this to do a few weeks ago,although Betty seems to have had a lot of injectionsi have never known this happen
My girl had to be put to sleep under anaesthetic, as she was very ill and it was a shock she went in for a dental and the vet found a tumour , but other cats put to sleep have only ever had 1 injection
Betty wiill be at peace now and you were happy that she didnt suffer ,which is what matters
One cat had an injection in his side which i found seemed better as it didnt mean the vet putting a needle into his leg which didnt have much flesh on it,and he didnt seem to even notice


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## chillminx

Sometimes vets prefer to first sedate the cat so they are less aware of the euthanising injection.. My vet prefers not to because the sedative injection can sting and upset the cat. But I had a couple of bad experiences with cats being pts in the last 10 yrs. In one case the vet could not find a suitable vein and was poking around in my cat for about 20 minutes. My poor cat was very distressed and it was awful! 

So I think I will ask in future [when such a time comes] for the cat to be sedated first.


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## jaycee05

Its just that Betty hissed and lashed out so assuming that hurt so i would prefer the way mine have had it done,with just one injection


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## chillminx

jaycee05 said:


> Its just that Betty hissed and lashed out so assuming that hurt so i would prefer the way mine have had it done,with just one injection


Yes I understand and I would have said the same until the bad experiences I had with the vet poking around trying to find a suitable vein for 20 minutes whilst my cat suffered.  A sedative injection may sting but it is always over quickly.


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## bluecordelia

@Jackie C sorry go hear about Betty. It's never easy xx


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## Jackie C

Thank you all for your kindness. x



jaycee05 said:


> Its just that Betty hissed and lashed out so assuming that hurt so i would prefer the way mine have had it done,with just one injection


I understand, but it was literally a second or two of anger. I know she would have been more traumatised and angry by being brought out her "safe haven" in her basket, her leg shaved and then an injection, as this would have taken a lot longer. Plus, that injection into the vein would sting as well (if not sedated). x She was completely unaware after the sedative.

I'll never forget when I was about 18, taking a cat to the vet with my mum. They couldn't get a vein in TC, and they ended up going in her neck. She cried and tried to get away.


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## Sonybear

We have made the gut wrenching decision to have our beautiful cat PTS this coming Sunday and having read through this entire thread I feel like I have an understanding of what might happen. I have asked the vet to sedate her before. Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences.

I have never had to make this decision before, I have had her from kitten and she is 13 now, they cant get to the bottom of her continued vomiting and constant hunger (so many tests) and all that is left is to put her through exploratory surgery which I just don't want to put her through. She hates being away from home, she doesn't like strangers and whilst she is recovering she may still be vomiting and I just cant do that to her. 

I feel like this is the right decision for her and her quality of life but knowing I am the one that has made that decision is tearing me apart.


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## SusieRainbow

Sorry you're going through this but it's an act of love and compassion. I've had to make the decision twice now with previous cats, my current cat is 17 and in pretty good condition but I know she can't go on forever. It doesn't get any easier !


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## Milliedogsmummy

I've had 3 dogs and 1 cat pts. My first dog poppy she was sedated but due to her kidneys failing finding a vein was hard. I feel I left her too long before having her pts. Our 2nd dog Sheeba was pts 3 months after poppy she was terminally ill with lung disease plus a huge mass on her mammary area plus she was pining for poppy pts was quick the vet commented it was one of the quickest he's seen a dog go. Our cat tom was pts 17 months ago he was 16 1/2 yrs old had over active thyroid which was under control he lost the use of his legs possible stroke, my at the time 11 yrs old son said we can't leave tom to suffer. Our 4th dog Millie(dog in my avatar pic) was pts almost 8 weeks ago her health went down after tom cat died, she wouldn't eat or drink and she was wobbly on her legs plus a huge tumour was found in her stomach area and they didn't know if she had other tumours. The vet told us the 1st injection the sedation turns the brain off and 2nd injection stops the heart. Sedating was quite quick no pain the 2nd injection was harder as her veins had collapsed they tried all her legs they had to go into her heart and the vet said took a horse dose to stop her heart. As awful as it was at the time I would not of liked her to suffer plus I've been with all my pets when pts. We now have a 12 week old kitten gizmo hoping not have to make that decision again anytime soon. I do hope to have another dog in the future.


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## SusieRainbow

When our boy Oscar was PTS after a road accident he was on the operating table at the vets having had his injuries assessed. The vet took me though to him and by that time he was barely conscious having howled all the way to the surgery. I was thinking a cat that made that much noise couldn't have too much wrong with him , but he must have been in agony and so distressed. The vet switched his oxygen supply over to anaesthetic gas while she drew up the injection and he seemed unaware of it. I stood with him, stroking his chin which he loved, talking to him, so I hope the last thing he heard was me tellinh him how loved he was. 
The vet and nurse were incredibly kind and let me stay with him till OH arrived to say his goodbyes.


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## bluecordelia

@Sonybear sorry to hear you have to make the hardest decision. I have never had to but considered it when Iv was so dehabilitated after being hurt in a fire.

I did a scoring on him twice which I found on this forum. Once generously and then with no frills. With the support here and my vets advice we soldiered on.

Please take heart that as a owner you are putting your pets needs first. X


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## Jackie C

Sorry to hear you've had to make the decision, @Sonybear, it's heart-breaking. You know your cat more than anyone else, and you know when it's time. 
I hope you have a comforting last day together before she leaves for the rainbow bridge. xx


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## Sonybear

Well yesterday was one of the hardest days of my life, the day we said goodbye to our gorgeous girl who had been a massive part of our lives for 13 years. My heart is absolutely broken in two and I feel as though the world has stopped turning. 

The experience of having her PTS was so very peaceful for her, reading experiences on here definitely helped. The vet was amazing, she took her into the back room to sedate her and then brought her back wrapped in a blanket with a bandage on her leg where they had the tube in ready for the injection. She was still awake at this time but seemed totally relaxed, the vet left us with her for 10 minutes whilst the sedative took effect and I just talked to her, stroked her head and told her how much I loved her. She just gradually fell asleep over a couple of minutes , until she was flat out on the blanket and cushion just breathing deeply. Eventually the vet re-entered the room explained what she would do next and that Star might make little movements or sounds and that this was all normal. She then came down to my side and gave her the injection, she was saying such nice things to her the whole time. Star gave a very small groan/growl and I stared into her eyes so I would be the last thing she saw and then the vet said she had gone. Star let out one small breath and her ear twitched and that was all. We sat with her on our own for another five minutes and eventually had to say goodbye.

Now, I feel such guilt, even though I could see the toll daily vomiting and constant hunger was taking on her body and personality. The house feels like a totally different place, I spent literally all day yesterday wracked with sobs, somehow I don't see today being much different which is hard when you are back to work. 

Its strange because I don't feel like I have the right to cry for her because ultimately I made that decision.


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## Jackie C

Oh, Sonybear, I am sorry for your loss. But you made the right decision. You knew Star more than anyone, and you know it was the right time for her. We only had Betty PTS 3 weeks ago, and I still miss her, so much. I have days when I feel, "what if", but then I remember how unhappy she was in the last week. 
Yes, our house feels different too, it's so empty. 

Remember all the happy years you gave her, remember you were the last face she saw, the last voice she heard. As she fell asleep the last time, she also loved you and knew you loved her. I don't believe animals have the same concept of death like we do. She just thought she was going to have a sleep. 

Goodnight, Star. xx


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## bluecordelia

@Sonybear its ok to feel sad. I hope over the next few weeks you can reconcile the great kindness you did.

Please feel free to say how you feel as you are grieving. Any death whether unexpected and sudden or as a result of a prolonged period is a real loss xx


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## Lisa2701

Great video. I found it really reassuring about neutering so young as I have to admit I was falling into the "they are only babies" trap way of thinking. My babies are not even home yet but I will be discussing early neutering at their vaccination appointment and if my vet won't do it there are several vets around me who will so I will go to one of them, but my vet helps the cat protection and can do keyhole spaying so I would prefer to have them done somewhere I am famailiar with (been with them years).


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## ZoeM

The rescue I foster for neuter kittens before they go out to their new homes, generally at 12-14 weeks as long as they are over 1.2 in weight. They only go to one vet who is very skilled at early neutering - cleanest neuters Ive seen. I have been informed of some people insisting their vets say to neuter after the first heat and am not sure why a vet would say this? In addition, a friend was telling me that early neutering stunts their growth. Again, I'm not sure why this would be the case, as the hormones affected are quite different? Growth hormones Vs sex hormones. My cat was neutered at 5 months I think - don't actually remember as it was 17 years ago, and my other cat neutered later but both were large cats.

Is this an urban myth this 'early neutering' = 'stunted growth'? I have read that females neutered after 6 months have a hugely increased risk of mammary cancer (91% or something) so just can't see the benefits of late neutering unless there is a health issue.

Many thanks for a reply 

Zoe M


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## Matrod

ZoeM said:


> The rescue I foster for neuter kittens before they go out to their new homes, generally at 12-14 weeks as long as they are over 1.2 in weight. They only go to one vet who is very skilled at early neutering - cleanest neuters Ive seen. I have been informed of some people insisting their vets say to neuter after the first heat and am not sure why a vet would say this? In addition, a friend was telling me that early neutering stunts their growth. Again, I'm not sure why this would be the case, as the hormones affected are quite different? Growth hormones Vs sex hormones. My cat was neutered at 5 months I think - don't actually remember as it was 17 years ago, and my other cat neutered later but both were large cats.
> 
> Is this an urban myth this 'early neutering' = 'stunted growth'? I have read that females neutered after 6 months have a hugely increased risk of mammary cancer (91% or something) so just can't see the benefits of late neutering unless there is a health issue.
> 
> Many thanks for a reply
> 
> Zoe M


Speaking from my experience early neutering doesn't stunt growth, Rodney was done at 3 months again & he grew into a big cat, I do think it's an urban myth personally.


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## Champers

Here goes. My beautiful 4 yo Bengal, Indi, woke us up at 2:00am three weeks ago making the most dreadful noise. At first I thought he'd injured himself with his boisterous play with his brother as he was dragging his right hock but once we got him to the emergency vet, HCM was diagnosed. 

Generally, he's ok. He's lost a lot of weight - he was a muscular boy - but he's still eating and doing his usual cat things. The bad news is, apparently by now, his leg should be showing some kind of improvement, which it isn't. Because he's also been 'knuckling' as he's dragging it, he's caused some tissue damage which is also not healing as it should. Our vet has been very supportive, he's put him on Vetmedin, Clopadogrel, Atenolol (beta blocker) and an anti biotic to try and help the wound.

He's now talking about a possible amputation. I can cope with that if it's necessary but I'm tearing myself apart over what to put this beloved boy through. I've asked for an honest opinion and the vet says he would tell me if he thought there was no point and that he was very pleased with the way Indi has stabilised and says he believes he has a fair chance.

I'm alternating between letting him go and fighting for every last opportunity for him. Every morning, I'm petrified to come down in case something has happened. Has anyone been through this?


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## jill3

So sorry to hear what you and your boy are going through. Have you thought about a second opinion from another vet?
I lost my 3 year old to saddle back thrombosis due to HCM. He couldn't move his back legs and was in agony. The emergency vet said that there was nothing they could do and so we had to let him go. Broke our hearts. 
It sounds like your boy has something slightly different but it is still HCM. 
Does your boy have a blood clot which has come from the heart in his leg? 
It is an awful situation to be in and I really do feel for what you are going through. I hope you will get some good advice on here. I lost my boy about 5 years ago now and there are new ideas and medication coming along all the while. Please let us know how you get on. I think there is a Facebook page for cats with HCM . Just might be if help. X


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## Champers

Hi Jill, thanks for your reply - much appreciated. Yes, it is a blood clot that has caused the paralysis. And just now, I gave him his evening meds and 20 minutes later, he's just thrown up so I'm feeling really despondent tonight. 
I've tried looking for the FB page; do you happen to know what it's called specifically? Many thanks xx


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## jill3

Aw poor boy. Will have a look now and get back to you.x


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## jill3

It is called neon shadow cat's HCM awareness. There has not been a posting since October but might be some info on there. 
Is he in pain?
There was someone on here a few months back who had a cat who had saddle back thrombosis who's vet put on medication but did not work and was put to sleep. 
How ever your boy only has it in one leg, so there is hope. 
Depends on how you feel. What ever you decide you are doing it for all the right reasons. There are no rights and wrongs here. If I find out any more info I will let you know. Xx


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## ALR

I'm really sorry to hear about your boy, Champers. News about HCM affects everyone hard. It's a really cruel disease.

I would suggest a second opinion as well from a cardiologist. My vet was ok treating my cat for HCM but my cardiologist (I used Davies) was excellent and so knowledgeable that it was a relief to have someone I trusted completely.

My impression is putting a heart cat through a major operation should be a big deal. Most heart cats don't deal well with GA. 

In our case we noticed our cat get better but it took longer than what the vet said it would. Also one of the biggest set backs is stress. My cardiologist told me he had a cat die on his table while he was examining him. So as little stress as possible which can make a huge difference to his recovery. 

I'd get the opinion of a cardiologist, if you can.


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## Champers

Thank you Jill and ALR. Xx

Indi doesn't seem to be in any pain although I know cats are very good at disguising it. He still has the occasional play and swipe at his brother, which I try and take as a positive sign. His appetite worries me, he's never been a huge eater and he's seems to be picking at things. I've over think I've over indulged him and bought him some wet food which he's enjoyed by licking all the rich gravy off of and then ignoring the meat. However, he has been eating a small amount of his usual dry royal canin.

Thank you all for your support - it really does help. Xx


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## Champers

Thank you Jill and ALR. Xx

Indi doesn't seem to be in any pain although I know cats are very good at disguising it. He still has the occasional play and swipe at his brother, which I try and take as a positive sign. His appetite worries me, he's never been a huge eater and he's seems to be picking at things. I've over think I've over indulged him and bought him some wet food which he's enjoyed by licking all the rich gravy off of and then ignoring the meat. However, he has been eating a small amount of his usual dry royal canin.

Thank you all for your support - it really does help. Xx


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## Champers

Thank you Jill and ALR. Xx

Indi doesn't seem to be in any pain although I know cats are very good at disguising it. He still has the occasional play and swipe at his brother, which I try and take as a positive sign. His appetite worries me, he's never been a huge eater and he's seems to be picking at things. I've over think I've over indulged him and bought him some wet food which he's enjoyed by licking all the rich gravy off of and then ignoring the meat. However, he has been eating a small amount of his usual dry royal canin.

Thank you all for your support - it really does help. Xx


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## jill3

Champers said:


> Thank you Jill and ALR. Xx
> 
> Indi doesn't seem to be in any pain although I know cats are very good at disguising it. He still has the occasional play and swipe at his brother, which I try and take as a positive sign. His appetite worries me, he's never been a huge eater and he's seems to be picking at things. I've over think I've over indulged him and bought him some wet food which he's enjoyed by licking all the rich gravy off of and then ignoring the meat. However, he has been eating a small amount of his usual dry royal canin.
> 
> Thank you all for your support - it really does help. Xx


You're welcome. Please keep us updated X


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## ALR

Heart cats have bad appetites because of their medication. The Clopidogrel especially has the effect to reduce a cat's taste. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

I fed my boy whatever he would eat when things got difficult. Because the heart meds are hard on the kidneys it is recommended you also feed wet. I used to add water to his wet (hot water in winter!!). But mine also got a little dry food because there are days that was all he ate.

It's difficult I know but there's a lot of adjustments and experimenting before you find out what works for your boy. Take it a step at a time and the fact that he's taking his medication is great.

There's also a yahoo feline heart group which I found very helpful.


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## Char8607

I'm so sorry to hear about Indi; HCM and all the associate diseases are so cruel. I know when our boy had it it was the hardest blow hearing that news. 

Sadly we lost Cloud on 2nd Dec 16, 29 days after his first visit to the vets. I can't offer you advice on how you move forward with Indi as it's a very personal decision however the advice I can add is this: if you would feel better having a second opinion and that is an option which is practically and financially viable for you then it's not going to hurt. 

We took Cloud to a second vets as we didn't fell confident in the slow approach/pace we felt the first vet was handling things (and if I'm brutally honest I think we wanted to believe there was another less horrible explanation for Clouds sudden illness). It turns out the second vet only confirmed what we had originally been told. BUT they were wonderful.in how they cared for him and dealt with us as owners and now Cloud is gone I can say, hand on heart that we did everything in our power to help him. Whereas I know if we hadn't taken him for a second opinion there would have always been that 'what if' scenario in my head. 

I know Clouds case and his quick end isn't the norm; cats with HCM do generally have shortened lives but even from just reading on this wonderful forum and some advice on other sites, with the right meds cats can live a happy life for months and sometimes years.

Sending hugs to you and Indi and keeping fingers crossed for you x


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## jill3

Hi Champers How is Indi? Been thinking of you both x


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## Champers

Hi jill3, that's really kind of you. Indi is doing incredibly well at the moment - fingers crossed. He has stabilised and is now on Plavix, Atenolol and Vetmedin only which makes life (and tablet giving time!) a lot less stressful. Unfortunately, his hock is still paralysed and my vet is still pressurising me to have his whole leg removed. As he's coping fine, full of beans, playing again with his brother and getting around ok, I really don't want to risk a massive op like that, not unless the leg actually starts to die or becomes infected. Obviously, we will have to be careful to avoid injuries so he's having to have the lower leg bandaged but I don't mind attending to that. I've also got a cat chiropractor to assess him (recommended by another vet) who comes and does exercises with him and advises me on different ones to do with him too. I've heard that nerve repairs can take months so I want to give it a chance. Maybe it won't ever recover but if his leg is removed now, we'll never know.

I've also changed his diet from Royal Canin to Orijen in the hope that a very high protein diet will also help the healing.

Once again, thank you so much for your concern, it really is appreciated. X


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## jill3

I am so pleased to hear that he is doing very well. It sounds like you have done a lot of home work on aiding his recovery. I suppose it is taking each day as it comes. I think you are doing the right think about his leg. No point in taking if off if there is a chance of recovery. I hope he continues to recovery. So give him a gentle hug from me.. Keep I touch xx


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## Champers

I'm also much more reassured that Indi's appetite has improved hugely. I was spending a fortune on indulgences for him; fancy cat food, tinned tuna, fresh chicken, only for him to sniff it and walk away. Without sounding like an advert for Orijen, I'm thrilled that he tucks into it and seems to be gaining back the weight he lost 4 weeks ago. Bloomin' expensive but if it works, it works!

Thank you all on this thread, you've all been so supportive. Xx


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## Char8607

Champers said:


> I'm also much more reassured that Indi's appetite has improved hugely. I was spending a fortune on indulgences for him; fancy cat food, tinned tuna, fresh chicken, only for him to sniff it and walk away. Without sounding like an advert for Orijen, I'm thrilled that he tucks into it and seems to be gaining back the weight he lost 4 weeks ago. Bloomin' expensive but if it works, it works!
> 
> Thank you all on this thread, you've all been so supportive. Xx


That's wonderful news, fingers crossed he continues to do so well


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## Champers

Sadly, Ind had another attack in the early hours of this morning which resulted in total rear paralysis. We had to make the heartbreaking decision to put him to sleep as nothing more could be done. Thank you all for your help and support - it's more appreciated than you'll ever know. Xx


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## Char8607

Champers said:


> Sadly, Ind had another attack in the early hours of this morning which resulted in total rear paralysis. We had to make the heartbreaking decision to put him to sleep as nothing more could be done. Thank you all for your help and support - it's more appreciated than you'll ever know. Xx


@Champers I am so sorry to hear this news, its so sad. It is truly heartbreaking when we have to say goodbye to our beloved pets but I hope you can take some comfort in the knowledge that you gave Indi the best chance possible when there are many people who may not have persevered in the way you did. I hope in time your pain eases.

Indi run free little man, over Rainbow Bridge and onto your happy place.

Big hugs x


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## Champers

Thank you so much Char8607. I'm in bits at the moment, I haven't cried as much as this for years - I think I'm ok and then it all wells up again. I'm praying I did the right thing now, I guess no cat could survive a second paralysis? Poor Indi's howling in the car keeps ringing in my head. Your kind words mean such a lot. Xx


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## Char8607

Champers said:


> Thank you so much Char8607. I'm in bits at the moment, I haven't cried as much as this for years - I think I'm ok and then it all wells up again. I'm praying I did the right thing now, I guess no cat could survive a second paralysis? Poor Indi's howling in the car keeps ringing in my head. Your kind words mean such a lot. Xx


You're more than welcome @Champers I know they won't change anything but hopefully they help a bit.

I think it's natural to second guess every decision you make wondering if the decisions made were the right ones. I did with Cloud (and still do if I'm honest) but I know in my heart of hearts that the right decision was made even if it's not how I wanted the end to be.

You have shared Indi's journey with us and you couldn't have done more; he was clearly a very much loved and cherished cat and the fact you made the decision to end his pain because it was the right thing for him in those circumstances, just proves how much he was loved because we all know how devastating that decision is to make. But loving an animal means putting them first even when it breaks our heart; and questioning yourself is part of the grieving process.

Here if you need anything and sending hugs over x


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## jill3

I am so sorry to hear of your loss of Indi. You did everything you possibly could. I remember too our car Journey with Harley and the howling in pain. It still haunts me today and it will be 5 years this Saturday. My Heart goes out to you. Be kind to yourself and give yourself plenty of time to grieve.
Remember that you gave him a fantastic life and he knows that you loved him dearly.
I am here if you need to talk.

Jill x


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## Champers

Thank you Jill and Char. You ladies have been so lovely - it certainly helps talking to others that have experienced the exact, awful way this disease attacks.

His brother, Bruno, is clearly missing him too. He keeps calling around the house and has already become more affectionate than he used to be. It helps a little to at least have one little furry friend curled up in my lap. Xx








Indi, in happier days, hogging the bed with Bruno having to rough it by the radiator!


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## Char8607

Champers said:


> Thank you Jill and Char. You ladies have been so lovely - it certainly helps talking to others that have experienced the exact, awful way this disease attacks.
> 
> His brother, Bruno, is clearly missing him too. He keeps calling around the house and has already become more affectionate than he used to be. It helps a little to at least have one little furry friend curled up in my lap. Xx
> View attachment 297879
> 
> Indi, in happier days, hogging the bed with Bruno having to rough it by the radiator!


Oh what a lovely picture! Look at that sporty tummy! Its a big loss for Bruno too and it's important that you're there for one another now more than ever; I wouldn't say I've got over my grief of losing Cloud but having Storm has given me a purpose every day to get on with things and give him all the love and attention I can, and I hope Bruno and you can help one another through this awful time.

Always here if you need a chat big hugs to you and Bruno. X


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## jill3

Lovely picture for you to cherish. It is good that you have Bruno and he has you.
Today it will be 5 years since my boy had to be put to sleep and if that wasn't bad enough we had to have our 18 year old British put to sleep the next day.
I never thought i would ever smile again.
6 years on we have Chloe, Archie and Ollie. They have certainly kept me on my toes. xx


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## Sacrechat

*Heart*

The heart is a muscle that pumps blood around the body. It is made up of four chambers; two on each side of the heart, one at the top and one at the bottom. The two top chambers are called the atria. The two atria (right atrium and left atrium) serve as pre-‐chambers to collect blood as the heart fills. The two chambers on the bottom are the ventricles (right ventricle and left ventricle), which pump blood out of the heart. The septum is a thick wall of muscle that runs down the middle of the heart, separating the right and left sides.

Deoxygenated blood from the body flows into the right atrium, through the tricuspid valve into the right ventricle. It is then pumped out through the pulmonic valve and via the pulmonary artery to the lungs where oxygen is picked up. Oxygenated blood then flows from the lungs, via the pulmonary vein, into the left atrium. It then continues through the mitral valve into the left ventricle where it is pumped out through the aortic valve and via the aorta to supply blood to the body.

*What is Cardiomyopathy?*

Cardiomyopathy means primary heart muscle disease, it is not caused by anything else going on within the body. This disease starts in the heart. There are several forms of cardiomyopathy. Cardiomyopathy in cats is similar, if not identical, to cardiomyopathy in humans.

*What Causes Cardiomyopathy?*

It is thought that cardiomyopathy in cats is a familial, genetically inherited disease caused by a genetic mutation. This is different from a congenital disease. A congenital disease is one the cat is born with, it is present at birth. In cardiomyopathies, the 'bad' gene is present from birth, but the disease that we see develops over time and usually does not manifest until cats are adult. There are over 1400 mutations that are known to cause the most common type of cardiomyopathy, HCM, in humans and we think the situation is similar in cats.

*Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM)*

Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM) is by far the most common form of cardiomyopathy in humans and cats. In HCM, the walls of the left ventricle thicken (hypertrophy). Along with the thickening of the left ventricular walls, the papillary muscles (small muscles within the heart that anchor some of the heart valves) may be enlarged.

*Secondary'HCM'*

You may have heard people talk about 'secondary HCM'. It is important to rule out other diseases that can mimic cardiomyopathies. Although these diseases can cause the left ventricle to look thick, they are NOT HCM. HCM is a genetic, primary heart muscle disease. Left ventricular walls may also hypertrophy secondary to (as the result of) other diseases. Rule out:


High blood pressure (hypertension):

High blood pressure is common in cats.High blood pressure within the circulation results in the heart having to work harder to pump blood out and around the body. This causes a secondary thickening of the heart muscle in response to demand.


Hyperthyroidism (overactive thyroid gland):

This is a common condition in older cats.Excess thyroid hormone causes an increase in metabolic rate, which results in an increase in the work the heart has to do and subsequent enlargement of the heart or heart muscle thickening.


Acromegaly (hypersomatotropism):

This is caused by excess growth hormone production and is usually only seen in diabetic cats, especially if their diabetes is difficult to control with insulin,

*What is **the Prevalence of HCM?
*
Dr. Rosie Payne at the Royal Veterinary College looked at the prevalence of HCM in cats in rehoming centres (Battersea and Cat's Protection League) to see how many of them had HCM. She found that 15% of the general feline population in cat shelters had HCM. So, this disease is very common. However, there was a low prevalence of bad disease, most of these cats go on to live a normal lifespan and never show any consequences of their heart disease.

*Why does it Matter?*
There can be some very serious consequences, such as arterial thromboembolism (ATE), congestive heart failure and sudden death.

*Congestive Heart Failure*

When the left ventricle becomes thick or stiffened, it is unable to fill properly. This can lead to a build up of pressure in the left atrium., the pre-chamber that is trying to drain into the left ventricle. This causes enlargement of the left atrium and high pressure, so the blood draining from the lungs into the pulmonary veins and into the left atrium can't drain very easily. This then causes high pressure within the vessels of the lungs, which can start to leak fluid. This can lead to fluid build-up in the lung tissue (known as pulmonary oedema) or around the lungs (known as pleural effusion).
This can be a life-threatening situation; cats can die if they don't get treatment quickly enough. Signs that would alert you to the possibility of congestive heart failure are fast breathing or difficulty breathing. Some cats will open-mouth breathe (pant like a dog).

*Arterial Thromboembolism (ATE)*

This devastating complication of cardiomyopathy occurs when a blood clot (also known as a "thrombus") forms within the left atrium. As the ventricle is stiff and doesn't fill with blood very easily, the left atrium becomes enlarged. Blood swirls around in the enlarged left atrium and doesn't move into the left ventricle properly, so you can start to get a clot forming within the heart. If a small piece of this clot (called an "embolus") breaks off, moves into the left ventricle and out into the circulation, it can block the blood supply to the major arteries. Rear leg paralysis, a classic example, occurs when a large clot lodges where the major artery to the body (aorta) branches to go to the rear legs. Smaller clots can go many places in the body to cause damage.

This causes sudden paralysis of the legs, which are usually cold because the blood supply has been cut off. This is incredibly painful and cats will usually be crying in pain - it is a really distressing situation! These signs can be so dramatic that they may be mistaken for trauma such as a road traffic accident or disease affecting the spinal cord.

*Sudden Death*

Sadly there are cats that die suddenly, sometimes with no warning at all. This may be associated with abnormal excitability of the heart muscle cells, leading to fatal heart rhythm disturbances. This is an important consequence of cardiomyopathy that we are currently looking at identifying risk factors for. You may not even know your cat had cardiomyopathy and the first sign of problems may be when they are just found dead. In this most upsetting circumstance, although very difficult to think about, post-mortem examination is very valuable.

*Feline Cardiomyopathies*

Feline cardiomyopathies include:


 Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM)

Restrictive Cardiomyopathy (RCM)

Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM)

Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy (ARVC)

These consequences can happen with any of the forms of cardiomyopathy we see in cats.

*Restrictive Cardiomyopathy (RCM)*

In restrictive cardiomyopathy (RCM) the wall thickness is normal and the left ventricle can look relatively normal, but in fact it is stiffer than normal so the left ventricle still doesn't fill very well and generally there will be an enlarged left atrium. This disease can be very difficult to detect in the early stages, as the left ventricle will look normal and the atrium will not be enlarged, therefore it can look like a normal cat!

*Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM)*

DCM is characterised by thinning and weakening of the heart muscle, leading to dilation of the heart chambers because the heart can no longer pump blood effectively. Historically, this disease was associated with a diet deficient in taurine, an essential amino acid. However, since this was discovered in the 1980s, food manufacturers have adjusted taurine levels such that deficiency is no longer seen in cats eating a commercial diet. DCM is now rare in cats and when seen may represent the 'end-stage' or 'burn-out' phase of another cardiomyopathy such as HCM. This can happen when the blood flow and oxygenation to the heart muscle itself is compromised and heart muscle cells die off.

*Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy (ARVC)*

ARVC has only recently been recognised in cats and is rare. In this disease, heart muscle cells of the right ventricle are replaced by fibrous and fatty tissue ('fibrofatty infiltration'). This causes heart rhythm disturbances and enlargement of the right side of the heart. This disease is known to be inherited in certain breeds of dog, but there have been no genetic studies in cats.

*Early Signs of Cardiomyopathy*

It is very difficult to detect early signs of heart disease in cats. In dogs you might notice reduced exercise ability, they are less willing to go on walks, but cats might just spend more time resting or sleeping. Cats are very good at hiding signs of disease! Approximately 15% of apparently healthy cats have HCM. In rare cases, signs include fainting or open mouth breathing (panting) after exercise. In humans, we know that HCM causes angina (chest pain) and we think that this might be what causes cats to suddenly stop and pant after exertion.

*Is Coughing a Sign of Heart Disease?*

Coughing is rarely seen in cats with heart disease. In cats, coughing is much more likely to be caused by airway disease such as asthma or bronchitis.

*My Vet Heard a Murmur - Does this mean my Cat has Cardiomyopathy?*

Heart murmurs are common in cats. Approximately 15-‐40% of the healthy feline population have a heart murmur. At the Royal Veterinary College they conducted a study where they listened to the cat's heart and then went on to scan their heart to determine the link between a heart murmur and heart disease. The results of
this study suggested that in normal healthy cats, a large proportion have heart murmurs. Not all cats with heart murmurs will have cardiomyopathy. On the other hand, not all cats with cardiomyopathy will have a murmur. In Nowegian Forest cats, they have now screened over two hundred and They could count on one hand those that had a murmur - murmurs are very uncommon with cardiomyopathy in this breed.

*Diagnosis: X-Rays*

Chest x-rays can show changes in the overall shape and size of the heart. They do not allow precise determination of the type of cardiomyopathy present or the heart function. They are most useful for detecting a build up of fluid (pulmonary oedema or pleural effusion). Repeating x-rays might be useful for monitoring the effectiveness of treatment for congestive heart failure.

*Diagnosis: Biomarkers*

Can a blood test tell you if your cat has cardiomyopathy? The two biomarkers they look at in a blood sample are NT-proBNP and Troponin I. NT-proBNP concentrations in the bloodstream will increase as the severity of heart disease increases. Troponin I is released by heart muscle cells when they are damaged, so anything that damages heart muscle cells may result in increased concentrations in the blood stream. That means that they can take a blood sample and measure the level of these biomarkers to get some idea of how much stress the heart is under and whether the heart muscle cells are being damaged. It will not give you a definite diagnosis of cardiomyopathy, but a cat with high results would be one that you would want to scan. In Norwegian Forest Cats, they are currently looking at whether these tests are able to detect mild heart disease earlier than they can see changes on a heart scan. This would be particularly important in cats with RCM, where they don't see changes on a scan until late in the disease course.

*Diagnosis: Echocardiography (Heart Scan)*

At the moment this is the best test for diagnosing cardiomyopathy. Echocardiography allows definitive diagnosis of the specific cardiomyopathy in most cases, as well as assessment of heart size and function. It may be able to give an indication of prognosis, for example a large left atrium would indicate that blood is starting to back up and the cat is at risk of going in to congestive heart failure. It may be possible to visualize clots or slowing of blood within the heart, which would indicate the cat is at greater risk of a clot (ATE). However, it may not detect mildly affected cats where changes in the heart are minimal. This test should be performed by a specialist cardiologist. Even for very experienced cardiologists, screening cats for cardiomyopathy is very difficult.

Experience is really important for detecting subtle disease and taking very precise measurements. It is a non-invasive and non-painful test. The cat does not need an anaesthetic and very rarely does it require sedation. They simply have to lie on their side for around 10-20 minutes while their heart is scanned with an ultrasound probe.

*Screening: Why Scan?*

Heart scans will allow you to assess risk for the individual cat. It will also help to identify carriers of the genetic mutation in breeding programs, therefore allowing you to think about removing cardiomyopathy genetic material from future lines.

*Treatment in the Early Stage*

In cats where cardiomyopathy has been diagnosed, but the disease is mild with no enlargement of the left atrium, there is no clear evidence to suggest any treatment can slow or delay its progression. This is an area of on-‐going research and more clinical trials are needed.

*Treatment: Clot Prevention*

If a cat has a big left atrium with slow, swirling blood flow and poor function there is a worry that the cat is at risk of forming a clot. In these circumstances medications can be given to help prevent this including aspirin and clopidogrel.

*Treatment: Congestive Heart Failure*

Where heart failure develops, various drug treatments may be available to help improve and manage the condition. The most important is diuretic treatment (e.g. Furosemide), which helps to help remove the fluid build-‐up in the lungs. Cats will often have to be hospitalised and given oxygen while these drugs take effect. If there is fluid around the lungs (pleural effusion), then the most effective treatment is to remove this using a small needle and syringe to drain the chest, a procedure known as thoracocentesis. ACE inhibitors (e.g. Fortekor, Benazecare) help block the activation of a hormone system that is stimulated in cats with heart disease which can add to the fluid retention.

*Prognosis*

This is a very variable disease. It varies between breeds, but also between individual cats within a breed. Some cats can live a normal lifespan and never show signs related to their heart disease, whereas in others it can progress very quickly and they die of their disease. The best way to assess individual risk is to have a heart scan.


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## OrientalSlave

_There are over 1400 mutations that are known to cause the most common type of cardiomyopathy, HCM, in humans_

I've often tried to find a good reference for how many mutations are in people. Would you happen to have one?


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## Sacrechat

OrientalSlave said:


> _There are over 1400 mutations that are known to cause the most common type of cardiomyopathy, HCM, in humans_
> 
> I've often tried to find a good reference for how many mutations are in people. Would you happen to have one?


Sadly no, I copied the above off a breed club website and deleted what wasn't relevant. I thought it explained things really well and would prove useful for this thread. The breed club in question has been raising funds and investigating which genes might be responsible for cardiomyopathy is their breed, but I haven't found any info on actual genes. The rest of the info on that site is an appeal for people to have their cats scanned and what the researchers will do with the results. None of which I thought relevant to this discussion. Sorry I can't help.


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## OrientalSlave

Sacremist said:


> Sadly no, I copied the above off a breed club website and deleted what wasn't relevant. I thought it explained things really well and would prove useful for this thread. The breed club in question has been raising funds and investigating which genes might be responsible for cardiomyopathy is their breed, but I haven't found any info on actual genes. The rest of the info on that site is an appeal for people to have their cats scanned and what the researchers will do with the results. None of which I thought relevant to this discussion. Sorry I can't help.


Google found me this:

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/sites/default/files/HCM_statement_UCD_Lyons_0.pdf

"Genetic heterogeneity for HCM in humans is well established, hence, there is no reason to not think the same situation is true for cats. Currently there are over 1000 mutations in over 10 genes that are known to cause HCM in humans."


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## Smuge

I am currently in the process of finding a vet in my (new) local area. Honestly? There aren't that many choices but I like the look of this one - http://www.hollygatevets.co.uk/services/

This isnt super close, but the most convenient ones have not exactly blown me away - especially in terms of opening hours. There is a vets for pets chain that may also be suitable, tho it isnt particularly close either.

Obviously I am not just going to just pick a vet based on what services they claim to offer online. I will make contact etc, it would be very helpful to have an idea of what I should be on the lookout for? What makes a practice good rather than ok?

My family have used a local practice for many years, but I have moved a long way away from the area. I am not in a rush, even when the kitten arrives in a few weeks it wont need any immediate treatment - would just like to know I have someone I can trust if the need ever arises.


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## Cookieandme

Your kitten may not need immediate treatment but I would register a kitten or cat as soon as possible and would take a new member of the family for a quick once over. 

The vet you link to would on paper satisfy my requirements, not all vet practices have dental facilities and the link looks to have their own hospital facilities. If I was looking for a vet in your area I would certainly go for a look.


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## Smuge

Cookieandme said:


> *Your kitten may not need immediate treatment but I would register a kitten or cat as soon as possible and would take a new member of the family for a quick once over. *
> 
> The vet you link to would on paper satisfy my requirements, not all vet practices have dental facilities and the link looks to have their own hospital facilities. If I was looking for a vet in your area I would certainly go for a look.


Totally agree, this is why I am trying to find a vet a month before she arrives rather than a month after - I just mean it isnt the end of the world if it takes me a while to find one I really like. I think the world of my breeder and have now met her several times, but I will still take the kitten for a checkup after she has had a few days to settle into my house


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## Smuge

Cookieandme said:


> Your kitten may not need immediate treatment but I would register a kitten or cat as soon as possible and would take a new member of the family for a quick once over.
> 
> The vet you link to would on paper satisfy my requirements, not all vet practices have dental facilities and the link looks to have their own hospital facilities. If I was looking for a vet in your area I would certainly go for a look.


I called them up - they gave me a price then basically said cheerio. Im sure they are still fine though *shrug*

I rang this one up - http://www.combervets.com/ The lady on the phone ended up having a long chat with me, was really interested in my breed, talked about insurance and stuff and said the vet may not even bother charging me for an initial "hello here is my new cat" consultation. I got a really nice vibe about them - though I guess this may not mean an awful lot as it obviously wasnt the vet himself on the pho ne

There is also this one - http://cromlynvets.co.uk/ which is a bit more expensive, but it really is a clinic belonging to a very very good hospital. Its a bit more expensive (say £29 per checkup rather than £25 and I imagine other fees are a bit more) but it may be worth a bit more for the "marks and spensers" of local(ish) vets


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## Amies Art

I'm currently trying to find a good vets near me that I can trust. I recently had a terrible time with my cat who had cat flu, but he was otherwise healthy, he ate and used his litter tray all fine, but his flu was just not shifting (it went on for 3/4 months). I took him to my vets in cranleigh for over 6 visits, and he was given two types of antibiotics for his flu, along with ridiculous amounts of metacam that they kept prescribing to him. He didn't improve so I took him to alfold vets who explained the flu better to us and assured us we are overreacting and just to wait it out. We waited, more weeks went by, he became more lethargic, he was pooing and weeing in his sleep, we went back to our cranleigh vets who didn't know what to do so I asked them to prescribe Ronaxan (which they did). He started to improve and get brighter, so I asked them to increase the dose from 5 days to 10. But at the end of the 10 he started dropping and went off food. I took him to a new vet in slinfold for a third opinion, the vet weighed and took his temp and just said he can't give me anything for him unless we moved to them and left our other vet. He said to do blood tests though. So went to my cranleigh vet again and asked about the blood tests, to which the vet said he would have to be put under in order to take them. I wasn't happy with this because my Bowie was struggling to breathe and he was considerably underweight. So went back to the Alfold vet to get blood tests, and had to put him on IV drip for two days. Then after I picked him up, he was worse, lost his balance, couldnt walk well and was constantly crying at me (loudly and angrily). Wouldn't eat, so we syringe fed for a week, it was horrid. Eventually we knew in our hearts that our little boy wasn't happy, he didn't move from his bed, he was skin and bone. We had to take him back to our original vet in Cranleigh as it was nearest and have him put down... 

I don't know what I'm trying to say from this, but I felt so neglected from the vets I visited (all three), it might have been that I was emotional and stressed, but not one of them did I feel I could trust and know that they wanted to get our boy better. None ever called to see how he was, I never felt they were there supporting me. We even called the vet in Alfold first thing in the morning after Bowie looked like he was wasting away, she never phoned back until 6:20pm that day!! We had of course already rushed him to another the vets by then!

This journey has lost my trust so much, I've never experienced this before and I'm not sure what to do as I'm so angry with them. I had a 7 month old kitten who was perfectly bouncy and playful when we got him, I picked up on all the signs when things didn't look right and I went to vets straight away to get him help. But none of them helped him and in my opinion did enough, and we'd spend 100's of pounds, and now I've lost him and I don't know what more I could have done.

I have another cat so need to find her a good solid vets I can trust, I just don't know who now? I try new places and just get charged lots of money and come out unhappy with the vet.


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## Elaine b37

I read your thread about Bowie and was very sad to hear the outcome

I think it is fair to say you are not going to be happy for your original vet who treated Bowie to see your other cat and I agree if you can start again with another practice it might be best.

I can understand the vet at Slinford not wanting to treat Bowie unless you left your original vet and transferred to them, I would guess there was a anxiety about things being missed or misunderstood if they didn't have his complete records, however I must stress I would have done the same as you did in the circumstances when you were not happy with your original vet and I would have been to every vet available and gone back and forth trying to get the best treatment and advice.

So, did you feel happy with the Slinford vet had they been able to take on all of Bowie's care? because that could be your starting point, but before you do that how about asking around, is there a local community facebook page for your area you could ask on? look at reviews for alternative vets, but be aware they might only publish the kind ones! ask in your local pet shop, anywhere there are cat owners who will be happy to give their opinion.

I have been with my own vet for many years and two cats, she is highly regarded but is somewhat aloof with humans, she tends to talk to me while looking at Cody, she clearly thinks I am overly protective and a bit mad! (lovely with cats though, and always gives him a goodbye hug which is the main thing! )


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## Smuge

I spoke to one vet that did a free "welcome to the surgery" checkup -I think its basically a chance to meet the vet who then has a quick check to make sure the kitten has four legs,two eyes etc - which is great, I trust the breeder but it would be nice to get a quick check up a few days after taking her home.

However - turns out this is only free for puppies not kittens . My suspicion that some vets prioritise dogs over cats was quickly confirmed


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## Ceiling Kitty

Smuge said:


> I spoke to one vet that did a free "welcome to the surgery" checkup -I think its basically a chance to meet the vet who then has a quick check to make sure the kitten has four legs,two eyes etc - which is great, I trust the breeder but it would be nice to get a quick check up a few days after taking her home.
> 
> However - turns out this is only free for puppies not kittens . My suspicion that some vets prioritise dogs over cats was quickly confirmed


That is so weird. I wonder why they wouldn't apply the same to kittens. Their loss!


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## Smuge

Ceiling Kitty said:


> That is so weird. I wonder why they wouldn't apply the same to kittens. Their loss!


I suspect it was probably an oversight rather than anything cynical, but it put me right off


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## Ceiling Kitty

Smuge said:


> I suspect it was probably an oversight rather than anything cynical, but it put me right off


I feel really sad because ISFM are putting so much effort into helping practices be more cat friendly and the situation you describe - while it may be innocent - is depressing and shows the lack of progress.


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## Smuge

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I feel really sad because ISFM are putting so much effort into helping practices be more cat friendly and the situation you describe - while it may be innocent - is depressing and shows the lack of progress.


I know exactly what you mean. I have been going out of my way to try and find a cat friendly vet and it may be silly but I like the idea of a vet who actually has cats of their own.

Especially as my Persian fluff monster has a few things you need to consider that dont apply to other cats.

I think I have settled on this one:
http://cromlynvets.co.uk/

Its a clinic attached to a very very good animal hospital. I do worry it could be a bit on the expensive side, but a consultatuon for example is only a few quid more than other localish options. Hopefully other treatments will be similar.

I mentioned earlier that I did get a really nice vibe from another vets that I know less about. But that was obviously a receptionist on the phone rather than an actual vet so its hard to know how much that positive vibe is actually worth.


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## chillminx

@Amies Art - I totally understand your loss of faith in the vet practice who treated little Bowie. I had a rather similar experience many years ago with one of my cats and had to change vets as a result. (Luckily I found a brilliant and cat-friendly vet whom I am still with years later )

As for finding another practice I recommend you join a private social network which operates locally in communities all over the UK. It's called "Next Door" (used to be called Streetlife). You will be able to start a discussion on 'Next Door' about local vets and people's experiences of them. People are very open and helpful and I have met some good folks through the network.

https://nextdoor.co.uk/login/


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## Smuge

In the end I settled on this one: http://cromlynvets.co.uk/

They are a bit more expensive, but they provide the out of hours and specialist care for half of Northern Ireland so I think that they are very much "the real deal" and their main facility is open 24/7

The intro consultation is actually free for kittens and puppies (unlike other local options which all charge a full price consultation fee - aside from the one practice that is free for puppies but not kittens!) ) and their neutering costs are pretty much the same price as other local practices, so at the very least I will use this practice to get her spayed in and see if I can get a feel for prices etc. I am quite happy to pay a little more for a great vets, I just can't afford to pay a lot more; but consultation and neutering fees are only a couple of quid extra which is totally fine.

I have booked my kitten in for next Tuesday - I completely trust my breeder but it will be nice to get know my vet and get them to have a quick look at the kitten.

The receptionist was very nice, but they quite aggressively pushed their "healthy pet club" the details are here: http://cromlynvets.co.uk/services/healthy-pet-club/ basically you pay a tenner every month and this covers flee treatments, worming, vaccinations (which my cat already has), nail clipping and you get 20% discount on neutering and a 10% discount on everything else they do; including consultation fees etc and you also get a free microchip tho my kitten may already have this. I would be very interested to hear how more experienced posters (especially @Ceiling Kitty if she is allowed to state an opinion!) feel about schemes like this?

I am fairly open to the idea, but my kitten has already had got her initial jabs etc and I said I would discuss this with the vet on Tuesday before signing up for anything

They did say they have a small barrier to mark off a separate area for cats, but I will just leave her with my OH in the car until she is called in to see the vet. Never liked taking my previous cat into a room full of howling dogs :/


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## Bertie'sMum

Apart from one vet over 20 years ago (who only really liked dogs and made it clear that he didn't have much time for cats !) I have been very lucky with both the vets I have used since. The first was a small practice just 5 mins walk from home and my old boy used to look forward (!!!!) to visiting them; the 2nd and most recent is also very close to where we live now (prefer nearby as it reduces the stress on the cat getting there); it's a bigger practice, all the vets are ladies and ALL have cats of their own. My old boy used to love all the attention (well he was a handsome boy ) and never made a fuss no matter what the treatment; my new fur baby isn't too sure yet but, so far, she's only been once; I'm sure she will settle once she gets used to them.

They were so kind when Harrycat had to be PTS and came out to the house to do the deed; even arranging for individual cremation and bringing his ashes back to me at no extra charge.


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## maisiecat

I chose one with all the cat friendly attractions, didn't make the vets any better though, unfortunately. If the vets aren't good your sick cat will be no better off for having a posh waiting area away from dogs.

When the time came I chose one where they were caring and compassionate instead, a bit grubby and worn out looking (the building not the staff) but warm and considerate instead of clinical and businesslike, like our old vet which I miss very much, even the smell of dog in the tatty carpet tiles. I felt that they cared more for the animals than the shiny newly equipped one with the special facilities and the mask like faces. They did have another room at one branch where nervous pets could wait.


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## Catrina

I think with finding a good vet it is trial and error, we have a number of vets in the area and have worked our way through a few of them One very local vet is always there 24/7 with no locums covering so we always know we will speak to someone that we know, our whippet was suffering a stroke 3 weeks ago and we were able to take her down immediately with no waiting We have the Yorkshire Vet also within striking distance as we needed an Orthopaedic specialist to help us, he was excellent, we still follow up with him with our Shadow as he had a crutiate ligament done down there at Skeldale.


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## maisiecat

Trial and error is OK if you have a healthy pet. Moving house with a longterm health problem and having to find a new vet can be lethal if you pick the wrong one. 
I registered one of mine with what I thought was the best vet I could find. It depended on which vet we saw and I was dubious so I avoided the one that seemed to have some problems relating to requests and questions.
I registered the other with a closer vet which turned out to not be a 'proper' surgery as the main one was near the first one I chose so I gained nothing, except the inability to see the same vet more than once. After seeing one that I had hopes for as he specialised in cardiology he was so arrogant and rude that I switched straight to the other one I was using. BIG mistake. 

I am struggling to find a vet I trust now, after the treatment we received. It has put me off vets. Also reluctant to go to the vet hospital as I don't want my cat used as an experiment and have no others in the area. I wish we had never moved here.


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## Jenny K

maisiecat said:


> Trial and error is OK if you have a healthy pet. Moving house with a longterm health problem and having to find a new vet can be lethal if you pick the wrong one.
> I registered one of mine with what I thought was the best vet I could find. It depended on which vet we saw and I was dubious so I avoided the one that seemed to have some problems relating to requests and questions.
> I registered the other with a closer vet which turned out to not be a 'proper' surgery as the main one was near the first one I chose so I gained nothing, except the inability to see the same vet more than once. After seeing one that I had hopes for as he specialised in cardiology he was so arrogant and rude that I switched straight to the other one I was using. BIG mistake.
> 
> I am struggling to find a vet I trust now, after the treatment we received. It has put me off vets. Also reluctant to go to the vet hospital as I don't want my cat used as an experiment and have no others in the area. I wish we had never moved here.


I


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## Jenny K

I feel so blessed. My vets are wonderful. Several years ago we adopted Lucy. Beautiful and white but still just an animal we fed for about three months. She was so nasty and antisocial to us. We discovered a mouth problem and the vet Pete said she had advanced Forles disease which is a terrible thing and making her so nasty. He sorted her out as much as was possible, warning that it would be in her blood stream as it was so bad. Once she was sorted as much as possible she became such a loving cat and followed me like a shadow. About six years later we were devastated when we had to let her go. She needed another op on her mouth but developed kidney disease. My vets did all that they could but sometimes we have to be selfless and let them go. I rang our vets and discussed with an owner her condition and after discussing options I asked for a home visit to put her asleep. She came with a nurse called Lucy and my lovely Lucy's end was done so compassionately and beautifully with no rush. After a year we were still really suffering but was asked to adopt a mother and baby. Well we were still raw but said yes. Blue House became our vets of choice again. We're so happy with the relaxed and caring atmosphere. I'm sure we must be thought of as paranoid pet owners after our experiencese with our Lucy .It's so sad when ppl feel let down by the ppl who they rely on to treat their "babies", which our pets become. Our lovely Lucy was vile at the vets but our new babies are so good I'm glad to say. They're due to go for their first annual check up this month. There will be no growling, hissing, struggling and clawing this time. Lol. Reading ther ppls experiences we're blessed.


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## Ceiling Kitty

Jenny K said:


> I feel so blessed. My vets are wonderful. Several years ago we adopted Lucy. Beautiful and white but still just an animal we fed for about three months. She was so nasty and antisocial to us. We discovered a mouth problem and the vet Pete said she had advanced Forles disease which is a terrible thing and making her so nasty. He sorted her out as much as was possible, warning that it would be in her blood stream as it was so bad. Once she was sorted as much as possible she became such a loving cat and followed me like a shadow. About six years later we were devastated when we had to let her go. She needed another op on her mouth but developed kidney disease. My vets did all that they could but sometimes we have to be selfless and let them go. I rang our vets and discussed with an owner her condition and after discussing options I asked for a home visit to put her asleep. She came with a nurse called Lucy and my lovely Lucy's end was done so compassionately and beautifully with no rush. After a year we were still really suffering but was asked to adopt a mother and baby. Well we were still raw but said yes. Blue House became our vets of choice again. We're so happy with the relaxed and caring atmosphere. I'm sure we must be thought of as paranoid pet owners after our experiencese with our Lucy .It's so sad when ppl feel let down by the ppl who they rely on to treat their "babies", which our pets become. Our lovely Lucy was vile at the vets but our new babies are so good I'm glad to say. They're due to go for their first annual check up this month. There will be no growling, hissing, struggling and clawing this time. Lol. Reading ther ppls experiences we're blessed.


I remember Lucy. She was certainly a character!


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## Jenny K

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I remember Lucy. She was certainly a character!


Who are you? One of the vets? Lovely!!!!!! What a coincidence


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## Ceiling Kitty

Jenny K said:


> Who are you? One of the vets? Lovely!!!!!! What a coincidence


Shosh! Yes, an odd coincidence! Glad to hear you've got a new pair of babies to keep you busy.


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## cassie12

We have tried 3 different Vets now & in our experience they are all the same...we had disastrous results with all 3 vets practices we tried...There main priority is not the Animal but how much they can screw out of you, but they all do it in a sympathetic but false sometimes sickly way...even though they know via various tests your cat or dog is too ill & will not survive no matter what treatment they give they will continue take your cash for as long as they can...my advice is if you are not happy with the way things are going/progressing you must stand up say what you think & tell them your not happy...


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## chillminx

@cassie12 - sorry this is off-topic, but I like your outdoor cat tree.  Did you have it made specially for you or buy it ready made? I am looking for a decorative outdoor cat tree for my garden.


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## Jenny K

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Shosh! Yes, an odd coincidence! Glad to hear you've got a new pair of babies to keep you busy.


Sorry Shosh I've been busy. After Pete, I don't know if he left before yo went to BH, you were the next in line to treat her I think. She was fierce wasn't she? Mind you she suffered a lot and was highly strung. Fancy you remembering her. Haven't seen you for a while. Hope you're doing well. Can't believe the years I've dipped into this site for info and didn't realise there you were. My babies are mum and daughter from Cats Protection. So different from each other tho and so good at the vets. Gypsy and Roselea. I'm so pleased we found a good vets. It's ashame for those who are struggling.


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## cassie12

I had it specially made buy someone in Scotland, its mainly made-up of Oak , I wanted one that could be left outside all year round, very please with it & it will withstand any high winds or gales...it weighs a ton..


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## Ceiling Kitty

Jenny K said:


> Sorry Shosh I've been busy. After Pete, I don't know if he left before yo went to BH, you were the next in line to treat her I think. She was fierce wasn't she? Mind you she suffered a lot and was highly strung. Fancy you remembering her. Haven't seen you for a while. Hope you're doing well. Can't believe the years I've dipped into this site for info and didn't realise there you were. My babies are mum and daughter from Cats Protection. So different from each other tho and so good at the vets. Gypsy and Roselea. I'm so pleased we found a good vets. It's ashame for those who are struggling.


Yes I knew Pete. I'll always remember Lucy, and I apologise for never being able to pronounce your surname!

I'm alright thank you, working round and about the place. BH is a very good practice.


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## Smuge

Tali's vet has good taste









Certainly much more impressive than the one that gave a free welcome consultation to puppies but not kittens -_-

Tali gets spayed next week (at exactly 6 months) we have been fretting about it for ages. Makes me feel better that I like the vets so far


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## SuboJvR

We chose our practice based purely on the fact it had a good car park initially. Well, I said "That looks good!" and then did a little research, seeing they had cat friendly clinic accreditation etc. I'm so happy with the care that Joey received when he was so unwell, they did absolutely everything they could and got my approval every step of the way.

It seems we lucked out - they've just won Petplan's "Practice of the Year" award!!  Sandhole Vets in Snodland, Kent.


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## 5r6ubertbe6y

None of the vets in my area appear on it but I notice that Vets for Pets in neighbouring towns are on there. One has a Gold star and one has a Silver star


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## Fabbiha

Thank you so much for this!


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## ExD

Funny I just dropped into this thread by accident, and saw your reply. Before you no-one seems to have written since December, and from the number if pages on here it was once a popular thread.


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## Cully

I'm in the middle of changing my vet. My present vet has recently decided they can no longer provide an out of hours service, which means travelling 20 miles away, and I don't have transport. I rely on taxis, and can't afford a 40 mile round trip.
I have found a vet who seems ok and apart from being rather expensive, does tick all the right boxes for me.
How can I find genuine reviews for this practice. There are some reviews but they are actually on the vet website and I don't know how far to trust them. How can I be sure they are genuine and independent?


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## havoc

Reviews are only good for front of house anyway and the vet I get on with may be very different from someone you like. It really is horses for courses and you have to decide what’s important. You can just take your animal to a vet which does their own OOH next time they need a booster or something and continue to use your current vet as well if you want.


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## SinneJ

havoc said:


> Reviews are only good for front of house anyway and the vet I get on with may be very different from someone you like. It really is horses for courses and you have to decide what's important. You can just take your animal to a vet which does their own OOH next time they need a booster or something and continue to use your current vet as well if you want.


I agree! I do this for my horse. There is one vet I really trust and with any serious thing I would call him, but he is relatively expensive. Regular stuff like vaccinations, eye infection and so on, I use a different, less experienced vet for (she is still great though).


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## Cully

havoc said:


> Reviews are only good for front of house anyway and the vet I get on with may be very different from someone you like. It really is horses for courses and you have to decide what's important. You can just take your animal to a vet which does their own OOH next time they need a booster or something and continue to use your current vet as well if you want.


Wouldn't that cause a problem if I needed to claim on my pet insurance? My insurance says I need to keep Misty up to date with yearly boosters and dental checks or any claim might be invalid. So I can't have 2 vets being responsible for treatment can I?


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## Cully

SinneJ said:


> I agree! I do this for my horse. There is one vet I really trust and with any serious thing I would call him, but he is relatively expensive. Regular stuff like vaccinations, eye infection and so on, I use a different, less experienced vet for (she is still great though).


So I could continue to use my present vet for things that can be done during the day, such as boosters and nail clipping. Then use the new vet who does OOH for things that could be more serious where I might need to visit OOH and/or make a claim. 
What if the treatment necessitated both vets becoming involved. That might not be seen as ethical surely, and might invalidate my insurance. Or am I just being naive?


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## havoc

I’ve never told a vet I was leaving them - I just start using a different one as needed. Would be different if you have a long term condition which required a history being transferred but if you have a healthy cat then that won’t happen. If you want to check out the new vet then go there for a booster or something like that. If not then do nothing until and unless you need an out of hours vet.

It isn’t like registering with a national health GP. Your animal is automatically ‘registered’ with a vet the first time you use them.  That’s exactly what happens if you use your current vets suggestion for OOH treatment anyway - your cat would become registered at that different vet for whatever treatment they carried out.


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## SinneJ

Cully said:


> So I could continue to use my present vet for things that can be done during the day, such as boosters and nail clipping. Then use the new vet who does OOH for things that could be more serious where I might need to visit OOH and/or make a claim.
> What if the treatment necessitated both vets becoming involved. That might not be seen as ethical surely, and might invalidate my insurance. Or am I just being naive?


Well if the vet is far away, he/she will probably understand if you go to another vet for regular or very urgent things. But like havoc said, you don't have to be open about that, although I would be. If you bring it the right way, people tend to accept your choice. That way you can use both vets for second opinions or whatever without having to withhold information.

I have however no idea how that works with insurance. I don't have one for my horse and I'm from Belgium, so it probably wouldn't be the same system.


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## Cully

SinneJ said:


> Well if the vet is far away, he/she will probably understand if you go to another vet for regular or very urgent things. But like havoc said, you don't have to be open about that, although I would be. If you bring it the right way, people tend to accept your choice. That way you can use both vets for second opinions or whatever without having to withhold information.
> 
> I have however no idea how that works with insurance. I don't have one for my horse and I'm from Belgium, so it probably wouldn't be the same system.


 @havoc and @SinneJ I can see how this could work but not with insurance involved. I can see a situation where it would mean involving both vets and I don't think my insurance would be happy. Also any medical reports would be needed from both vets so I would be charged twice. It all sounds too complicated.
As I said in my original post, I just want a way of checking the prospective new vet to see whether they come up to scratch in reality rather than just on the face of it.


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## havoc

In your scenario insurers wouldn’t cover any treatment by any different vet - that includes all OOH treatment for all those with vets who don’t do their own. You must know that doesn’t happen. When someone takes their animal to an OOH vet they aren’t being specially referred in any way - they’re just using a different vet who happens to be open when needed and insurers pay.


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## havoc

Cully said:


> Also any medical reports would be needed from both vets so I would be charged twice.


What on earth does your vet charge? Mine charges a few pounds for processing a new claim - nothing for ongoing conditions.


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## Ceiling Kitty

You can use two vets, and it won't invalidate or complicate any insurance - but it's vital that clinical notes get transferred and updated between the two clinics every time you are seen.

Veterinary practices are not supposed to treat patients without all known history being available to them (barring emergencies/urgent situations).


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## havoc

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Veterinary practices are not supposed to treat patients without all known history being available to them (barring emergencies/urgent situations).


I think many people have a belief that records are available to OOH vets when in most cases it's just a recorded message on their own vets phone giving details of an alternative facility. No special relationship, no shared systems, just ' we're not open right now but here's the number of somewhere that is'. All people are doing is using a different vet.

If the OP is happy with her current vet there's no need to change. The other vet which does do OOH would be there if needed. When I was breeding I needed a vet which did their own OOH but it wouldn't be nearly so important to me now. The chances of most pet owners having a midnight emergency are very slim.


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## Cully

@havoc and @Ceiling Kitty ,thanks for your responses. I have been in the fortunate position of never needing a vet for any of my pets, apart from vaccination and other routine stuff. So I guess I am pretty naive about what to expect. The last thing I want to do is annoy professionals who I am having to rely on for the welfare of my pet and hope to develop a trusting relationship. That trust must be on both sides. I didn't want to appear to be misusing them by not informing them of their dual role in my cats treatment. 
From what you are saying, I can go to both vets for different things without upsetting either.
I would use my present vet, who has passed his OOH service to a vet who lives too far away from me, for anything which can be done during normal hours. If I needed to see a vet OOH I would go to a vet who is near to me. The reason I don't use this vet normally is because he is the most expensive around here. The service is first rate and that is what you pay for I expect.
If that is fine to do then my only concern would be having treatment which may involve both vets and what that would involve regarding my pet insurance.


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## Saffy Cat

New member here. I choose to continue with the vet who treated my shelter cat (on a charitable basis when she was in the shelter). She was due a secondary vaccination a week after I adopted her and the shelter told me their vet would do this for £20 in total waiving the consultation fee.

It’s a 30 min taxi ride for me so I spoke to my local Village Vet branch for a quote and they said she would need a full check up and restart the vaccinations as they wouldn’t accept the paperwork from the shelter which had her medical history and they use a different brand of vaccines. The quote was close to £150 and when I walked in to buy a (dusty and faded) Feliway plugin (which was twice the price of anywhere else) I was further unimpressed with the old and dusty clinic and small waiting area which had a yapping dog (at that time). Needless to say I wasn’t going back and don’t have a very good impression of the Village Vet franchise.

My cat is shy but she was very confident with the vet walking all over his desk to explore and get petted. We had a discussion about costs, emergencies, ideal weight range, feeding (non judgemental as I was feeding Sheba at that time) and the other clinic’s stance on restarting the vaccinations.

I mainly like that they are independent, the clinic is nice & services are well priced so I justify the Uber fare there. Have been 4 times so far and my cat hates the journey but she would have to go by taxi to any vet nearby.

Their website has good info too on their ethics and values. They aren’t listed specifically as a cat friendly clinic, I think as they only have one waiting area.


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## bluecordelia

Hi @Saffy Cat and welcome

I have just returned from our vet. I use a well known franchise and I am convinced I get preferential rates. I have been to them a lot over the last 4 years. For me seeing the same person twice is important. We saw a locum last week who was I feel not interested.

Can I suggest using a calming spot on and a spray like pet remedy for a few days prior to any planned visits. I dose mine up and it does help. You can buy Beaphar spot on and pet remedy online


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## Saffy Cat

bluecordelia said:


> Hi @Saffy Cat and welcome
> 
> I have just returned from our vet. I use a well known franchise and I am convinced I get preferential rates. I have been to them a lot over the last 4 years. For me seeing the same person twice is important. We saw a locum last week who was I feel not interested.
> 
> Can I suggest using a calming spot on and a spray like pet remedy for a few days prior to any planned visits. I dose mine up and it does help. You can buy Beaphar spot on and pet remedy online


Thanks, yes we feed her Beaphar calming treats and I normally spray the cage about an hour beforehand with feliway. Her sleeping fleece lines the cage and we completely cover the cage with another. I haven't thought of dosing her a few days beforehand though so will try that when she is due back for her annual (next June thankfully and hopefully not earlier). Spot on applications will be tricky, I know they are better but we have just changed to oral flea and worm as she hates the spot treatment. We try to be matter of fact and indifferent when doing it but she is such a sulker.

The vet I go to doesn't employ locums (which I just found out now from their website). They are a partnership with a trainee vet and will alway try and schedule with the original vet if possible. I think I have accidentally chosen to stay with a good vet by luck only as I have only been reading up on cat care since I adopted her a year ago. I grew up with cats but I realised during the adoption process at the shelter that I had a massive knowledge gap, although nothing that prevented me from being an adoptive cat parent  they gave me lots of literature and pointers on what to shop for


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## Ceiling Kitty

Aww locums aren't all bad! :Bag


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## SusieRainbow

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Aww locums aren't all bad! :Bag


True, it was a lovely locum vet who dealt with Reena's colic , incidentally the first male vet I've seen for ages ! I think he was an employee of the Vets4Pets franchise which is who we use, he was really kind and very thorough.


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## chillminx

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Aww locums aren't all bad! :Bag


Some of the nicest and best vets I have seen at my local vet practice have been locums.  They have seemed more prepared to listen, more interested in my cat(s), more willing to take time to answer my questions, and in some cases, more knowledgable on latest relevant research. It has been locums every time who have agreed with me about feeding a wet food diet to my cats. The owner of the practice recommends dry food.


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## SuboJvR

Yep don’t underestimate the positives of seeing someone who doesn’t have ‘ties’ to a given practice! They may be more open minded about some things, rather than push local policy, (wet food v dry as above) for example. And being a locum can also mean a wider range of experience, although not necessarily.

It would be a very fortunate practice who would never employ a locum. Things like long term illness, secondments and maternity leave lend themselves well to locum cover (as people wanting a fixed position aren’t so keen on a short term contract with no guarantee of continued employment)


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## cassie12

All Vets are much the same, their main interest Is in how much cash they can screw out of you... 
not found a good honest one yet..


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## Ceiling Kitty

cassie12 said:


> All Vets are much the same, their main interest Is in how much cash they can screw out of you...
> not found a good honest one yet..


ALL of them?

Every single one alive today?

I think you'd be better saying that all the vets you have _personally met_ are mainly interested in how much money they can screw out of you, if indeed you've been that unfortunate.

I hope you are able to find one that is different.


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## Forester

cassie12 said:


> All Vets are much the same, their main interest Is in how much cash they can screw out of you...
> not found a good honest one yet..


I am absolutely shocked at this comment. I can honestly say that I've NEVER encountered a vet whose prime concern was not the welfare of my animal. One of my vets even took my cat to a referral vet on my behalf in her own time ( involving 280 miles of travel )as I was unable to leave home .I do believe that the vet/ client relationship must be a two way one though.


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## Sacrechat

Vet bashing is supposedly not allowed on this forum; I’ve been waiting to see if a mod would say anything, but up to now nothing. Different rules for different people it seems.

I’ve no doubt there could be some bad apples out there, as there are in any profession, but I think to say all vets is grossly unfair. I’ve met some really lovely vets whose prime concern is the well being of my pets. Yes vet bills have risen, but treatments available today far exceeds what was available years ago, equipment used is expensive so of course costs have risen. I accept that.

As for the bad apples, I’ve met one myself but will say no more.


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## QOTN

I am afraid @cassie12 has 'form' for vet bashing. Remember the thread on Metacam? Nothing will be achieved by sweeping statements condemning all vets when the majority of us have known so many excellent selfless vets, who usually have little control over practice policy but spend their time looking after animals. We cannot afford to lose those dedicated members of the profession but increasingly they will be leaving because of the aggressive attitudes of some clients.


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## Sacrechat

I should also add that vets are not charities, they have wages to pay. The staff, like the rest of us, have mortgages and bills to pay. They spend years training for their job so they expect a decent wage. It’s only fair that we should expect to pay for their expertise.


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## SusieRainbow

Sacremist said:


> Vet bashing is supposedly not allowed on this forum; I've been waiting to see if a mod would say anything, but up to now nothing. Different rules for different people it seems.
> 
> I've no doubt there could be some bad apples out there, as there are in any profession, but I think to say all vets is grossly unfair. I've met some really lovely vets whose prime concern is the well being of my pets. Yes vet bills have risen, but treatments available today far exceeds what was available years ago, equipment used is expensive so of course costs have risen. I accept that.
> 
> As for the bad apples, I've met one myself but will say no more.


Unless these posts are brought to our attention we're not necessarily aware of them , why didn't you report it ?


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## SusieRainbow

cassie12 said:


> All Vets are much the same, their main interest Is in how much cash they can screw out of you...
> not found a good honest one yet..


Such comments are against forum rules, to say nothing of being very rude and inaccurate.
You have been warned.


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## Ottery

Just found this thread. I've been mostly really lucky with my vets. We've been with the current practice since we moved here about 12 years ago, it was recommended to me by the person we bought our house from (she had cats too). The chief vet was absolutely brilliant, but unfortunately he retired a few months ago, and the chief vet nurse also left. I am not entirely confident in the new regime - we'll see. Partly it's probably just that I don't feel anyone can replace my vet!

But a huge problem for us is the out of hours service. It used to be brilliant, whichever vet was on rota would meet you at the local surgery. I had to use it a couple of times including when our cat broke his jaw, which was a horrible shock - but the fact that we could see a familiar vet at our nearby surgery made it less traumatic.

But for the past 18 months, OOH has been delegated to Vets Now at a surgery 40 minutes away. I absolutely hate this service. One of our cats was hit by a car on a Sunday afternoon and very seriously injured, so we had to drive her a long distance to see a vet we'd never met who was frankly not the most sympathetic human being. By the time she arrived, Lily had collapsed and she died shortly afterwards. It was just a terrible experience. Obviously it would have been terrible to lose her anyway but the whole procedure made it much worse.

But there is nothing I can do about it. We are semi rural and there is only one other vet within a 20 minute drive, and they have a similar OOH service a long distance away.

My vet explained why they changed to Vets Now - he said he would have continued as previously but he could no longer find other vets prepared to be on the OOH rota. And by using Vets Now, he would always be at his best during surgery hours, rather than tired from OOH at night or weekends. It all makes sense, but I still hate it.


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## Calvine

I think most are pretty much the same now; mine used to do a sort of ''time share'' with another vet about four miles away, taking it in turns to cover for each other, but when the older guy retired, the younger one didn't want to continue so they now use a dedicated OOH vet. Twelve miles away, which doesn't sound too bad but in practice it's the other side of Hampton Court Bridge, so the traffic is grim most times of day. When mine collapsed at about 7pm I more or less guessed he would be dead before I could get him there in the rush hour and he was. I rang them from the car to say I would not be bringing him in after all. Saying that, I have heard that they are very good vets - a friend of mine had to have her old girl put to sleep there and she said they were really kind.


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## SilkyPaws

The Veterinarian i found is at the end of the city where i live...but, why i choose this one is for few practical reasons; first they are a animal hospital, so everything is done at the same place (exam and vaccination, surgical procedure like neutering, boarding, grooming, etc...) and they are open 24 hours, so it the case of an emergency i know it will be the same staff and doctor who will see my pet and they will have the complete chart too. Also they are very affordable which makes it worth going out of my way and their customer service and technicians are amazing as i can tell they genuinely love animals, recognize my pet, and are supportive to me their human parent...I do not feel inadequate when i go there...


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## Ottery

That's brilliant. My vet was like that 20 years ago, but unfortunately, no more.


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## maisiecat

It's a while since I was on this thread...

Recent experience has prompted me to post again. If you don't get a good feeling when meeting a vet for the first time don't go back to that vet. Go with your gut, or if you encounter one that seems to hate everyone and is offhand, refuses to answer questions or ask if you agree before shoving a pill or needle into your pet, ditto.

I have been in a position where I had to use a certain vet and I absolutely dreaded the visits. Glum, unfriendly and with a complete refusal to answer the simplest question. It was as if the test results were top secret. Mention of something as a question would result in a quick check of the records and a pill administered without a word, same with needles.

I have managed to get answers to my questions by asking the new vet that I transferred to if they would look at the previous results. The minimal information I had been given at first was largely glossed over and ignored. Kept being told to go back for checks for no apparent reason.

My instinct from the first was to turn round and leave.

I repeat, go with your gut.


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## M*72

Definitely go onto the IFSM cat friendly list to see if your vets is certified 
You should be able to tell the minute you walk in if it’s cat friendly if there is a separate waiting area for cats or not 
Cat only consult rooms are good too


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## Aimeecasperbluepixie

I have tried so many veterinary practices If anyone is in the east London/Essex area do not us forest vets or Goddard I don’t belive they have best interest for the animals we are currently under animal ark and can say that they have been very helpful with my cat that is sick at the moment


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## Cully

Aimeecasperbluepixie said:


> I have tried so many veterinary practices If anyone is in the east London/Essex area do not us forest vets or Goddard I don't belive they have best interest for the animals we are currently under animal ark and can say that they have been very helpful with my cat that is sick at the moment


I don't thinks it's fair to criticise without giving your reasons.


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## Aimeecasperbluepixie

Cully said:


> I don't thinks it's fair to criticise without giving your reasons.


So reason for Goddard my cat had pancreatitis we took him to the overnight emergency vets he was really sick they kept him in for about 3 nights this was back in 2016 , the bill came to around £2,500 which seemed like a lot at the time for just antibiotics and a few blood tests so we followed our gut instinct then asked for a break down of the bill and someone to tell us what he had done , as we went through the bill the vet started crossing things out and said she wasn't sure why we was charged for multiple things on the bill and took nearly £1,000 off of the total price of the treatment , as for forest vets I recently lost my little french bull dog puppy who was only 15 weeks old , we took him in as he seemed lethargic and was not eating very much , they called us said he has a sever heart murmer did a lot of tests one minute told us he has a auto immune disease then when I questioned if they did any tests to check for the auto immune they said they couldn't do a test and was just going by symptoms , then called us the next day said he has kennel cough we did a chest x-ray more blood tests then he was put on a wide range of anti biotics to cover 'everything' as they did not know what was wrong with him they sent him out a week later with anti biotics that we gave him at home and and he started to get worse and he developed a cough which he never had before I sent him in there and respitory problems I then called and asked if I should be worried and they said they wouldn't have sent him home if he was sick and to keep giving the antibiotics he was due to go back Monday with them for a check up I called on the Sunday becuase I was worried again and they said it may he heart failure , I decided not to take him back to them and took him to the pdsa on the Monday which the vets said he was suffering from heart failure and the kindest thing would be to put him to sleep I was absolutely heart broken as you can imagine and felt bad that I had put him through all of that suffering when I feel that the vets knew he had that from the beggining , this is just my expeirience with these vets everyone is entitled to there opinion but this was mine


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## Cully

Aimeecasperbluepixie said:


> So reason for Goddard my cat had pancreatitis we took him to the overnight emergency vets he was really sick they kept him in for about 3 nights this was back in 2016 , the bill came to around £2,500 which seemed like a lot at the time for just antibiotics and a few blood tests so we followed our gut instinct then asked for a break down of the bill and someone to tell us what he had done , as we went through the bill the vet started crossing things out and said she wasn't sure why we was charged for multiple things on the bill and took nearly £1,000 off of the total price of the treatment , as for forest vets I recently lost my little french bull dog puppy who was only 15 weeks old , we took him in as he seemed lethargic and was not eating very much , they called us said he has a sever heart murmer did a lot of tests one minute told us he has a auto immune disease then when I questioned if they did any tests to check for the auto immune they said they couldn't do a test and was just going by symptoms , then called us the next day said he has kennel cough we did a chest x-ray more blood tests then he was put on a wide range of anti biotics to cover 'everything' as they did not know what was wrong with him they sent him out a week later with anti biotics that we gave him at home and and he started to get worse and he developed a cough which he never had before I sent him in there and respitory problems I then called and asked if I should be worried and they said they wouldn't have sent him home if he was sick and to keep giving the antibiotics he was due to go back Monday with them for a check up I called on the Sunday becuase I was worried again and they said it may he heart failure , I decided not to take him back to them and took him to the pdsa on the Monday which the vets said he was suffering from heart failure and the kindest thing would be to put him to sleep I was absolutely heart broken as you can imagine and felt bad that I had put him through all of that suffering when I feel that the vets knew he had that from the beggining , this is just my expeirience with these vets everyone is entitled to there opinion but this was mine


Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, and especially sorry you lost your puppy. That's so sad.
The reason I asked you to explain is because it's hard to understand why you don't like something if you don't give a reason. I can understand why you were so upset.
I'm glad you found a vet you're happy with who you trust. That's very important.
Have you told the breeder about your sick puppy. I would be concerned in case they knowingly sold you a pup with a health problem.


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## Aimeecasperbluepixie

Cully said:


> Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, and especially sorry you lost your puppy. That's so sad.
> The reason I asked you to explain is because it's hard to understand why you don't like something if you don't give a reason. I can understand why you were so upset.
> I'm glad you found a vet you're happy with who you trust. That's very important.
> Have you told the breeder about your sick puppy. I would be concerned in case they knowingly sold you a pup with a health problem.


No don't worry I understand ! I'm new to this whole forum thing but just thought if I could help people that have been in situations like me then I would love to do that , and yes was awful hard to talk about it to be honest I'm still really upset we spoke to the breeder and they said no signs when they had him was a awful situation to be in but was the best thing for him to put him out of his suffering as hard as it was for me , now one of my cats is very sick has phyforax just come out of the vetinary hospital hopefully on the ment fingers crossed just very bad timing one after another was wondering if anyone else had a cat that got this also ?


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## Cully

https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/cat-health-and-nutrition.9/
Try starting a new thread and posting on here.


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## Aimeecasperbluepixie

Thankyou for your help xx


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## Guest

It's super hard choosing a practice because for most visits you don't need to "test" the vet. All vets are ok with check-ups and vaccinations. It's when something difficult comes up that's when it gets tricky because that's when they are under pressure. My advice:

Avoid the large chains (eg Medivet) - they are financially focused and have strange rules about referrals so you may not get referred to the best specialist (or at all) as they don't want to lose your revenue

Never choose a vet who refuses to come to the phone when you have a question about your pet's health, especially when you've just spent thousands with them.

Choose a problem-solving vet. One who suggests solutions and doesn't shrug shoulders. Like Noel Fitzpatrick from Supervet. He doesn't give up.

Remember vets vary widely in quality just like all professionals. One indicator might be to look at where they studied. Check where your vet qualified from - RVC, Edinburgh, Bristol, Cambridge. All are good universities. If you are in the US, you are really lucky. The best experts are there. Ohio State, Cornell etc. Ask about their experience in treating your particular animal and their breed. General vets treat wide range of species and if yours is 80% treating dogs, I'm sorry but he won't be that good with cats with a difficult issue. The hallmark of clinical expertise is experience (even in human medicine you check a consultant's competence by asking him/her how many times he has done the procedure in question).

For cats, try and choose a feline only practice. I honestly think they do a far better job than someone who is treating a parrot one minute and a rat the next. How can they be good at everything?

Consider a mobile vet. They are often much more interested in animal welfare than profit-orientated chains.


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## Guest

maisiecat said:


> It's a while since I was on this thread...
> 
> Recent experience has prompted me to post again. If you don't get a good feeling when meeting a vet for the first time don't go back to that vet. Go with your gut, or if you encounter one that seems to hate everyone and is offhand, refuses to answer questions or ask if you agree before shoving a pill or needle into your pet, ditto.
> 
> I have been in a position where I had to use a certain vet and I absolutely dreaded the visits. Glum, unfriendly and with a complete refusal to answer the simplest question. It was as if the test results were top secret. Mention of something as a question would result in a quick check of the records and a pill administered without a word, same with needles.
> 
> I have managed to get answers to my questions by asking the new vet that I transferred to if they would look at the previous results. The minimal information I had been given at first was largely glossed over and ignored. Kept being told to go back for checks for no apparent reason.
> 
> My instinct from the first was to turn round and leave.
> 
> I repeat, go with your gut.


Absolutely spot on. I just don't get some vets. They happily take your money but behave as it you are a total nuisance. If you don't feel it from the vet, change the vet. Your pet's life could depend on it.


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## JamesM22

As a newbie, I need to learn more about this vaccine. Glad to read this thread. It looks very much helpful.


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