# Help and advice



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Things seem very tense at the moment, Elise is still weeing in the house despite having a cat flap open all the time. I don't think she likes coming downstairs as she is likely to bump into Elsa or Elsworth as they both bully her. She used to wee in the old house if she wasn't allowed out, now we are letting her but maybe the other two are not. 

Elsa has developed cystitis again which she had prior to Elsworth. No idea what the cause is but she is also covered in scabs from either an outside cat or Elise. It isn't Elsworth as he tends to leave Elsa alone and give her a respectful amount of space. As a result she doesn't mind him in the house. She is using the cat flap happily and other than the cystitis is not weeing or pooing in the house. 

We are now thinking that we should put a cat flap in the upstairs small bedroom window leading to the garage roof so she does not have to venture downstairs. We could put a microchip cat flap in the door as well so that she is completely separate from the other two. However I am not sure how this would work long term. Next year we are planning our first child which will have the main spare room and then a couple of years later a second which would then take the room we have given to Elise. Also there will be rare occasions when that room will need to be used by a guest, over Christmas I have invited my parents and little sister to stay, she would take the small room for a week and Elise does not like kids. 

Am I over thinking this? Should we go with it short term and cross the long term bridge when it comes in 4-5 years time?


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that things are still far from ideal. Have you tried to find a cat behaviour expert to help you out? 

I paid for such consultation earlier this year and it was worth every penny  I simply contacted my vet and ask for a recommendation. The cat expert visited us at home to see exactly what the interactions looked like. You can try to describe your cats behaviour to PF members the best you can but maybe you - and your kitties - could benefit from the fresh pair of EYES to assess your "battle ground".

What do you think?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> I'm sorry to hear that things are still far from ideal. Have you tried to find a cat behaviour expert to help you out?
> 
> I paid for such consultation earlier this year and it was worth every penny  I simply contacted my vet and ask for a recommendation. The cat expert visited us at home to see exactly what the interactions looked like. You can try to describe your cats behaviour to PF members the best you can but maybe you - and your kitties - could benefit from the fresh pair of EYES to assess your "battle ground".
> 
> What do you think?


I think that might be a last resort option if it comes to it. For now I have upped the ante, got both girls on Zylkene, refreshed the pet remedy and ordered an extra feliway diffuser. We are going to have to be firmer with Elsworth when he chases Elise and take him away into a room for a few minutes on his own so he begins to associate chasing with being shut away from everyone which he hates.

I am hoping things might settle down once their stress at being in a new environment eases.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Well sounds like you're trying a few things to make matters better :thumbup1:

Well, my expert helped me understand the root causes of my cats behaviours and didn't just focus on the outcomes of their aggressive interactions and how to stop these.

I wonder if reinforcing positive behaviours works better with cats than "punishment". I can only make a wild guess that Elsworth may or may not start associating being shut away as his punishment for chasing Elise. What if in his world the logic is more simple: "I hate Elise even more as every time I come near her I get kicked out"

The consultation with a cat behaviour expert perhaps doesn't have to be "a last resort option". In my humble opinion sooner is better than later


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cat flaps are great places for bullies to lie in wait for their victims so another one might help.

How many litter trays? Are they spread round the house?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oggers, it may be you will have to accept there are two social groups i.e. Elsa and Elsworth in one group and Elise on her own in the other group, and then give each group their own part of the house. It may be the only way you will ever have peace, and that Elise will become less stressed. 

I am sure the present situation is also stressful for Elsa too, hence the return of the cystitis. But if she is OK with Elsworth, then they can live as one social group. 

Moving house was the perfect opportunity for all 3 cats to get along better, as the territory was new to them all at the same time. As you know cats are very much creatures of habit, and they had all got into the routine of behaving in certain ways to each other. A change of environment could possibly have disrupted the old habits and allowed new ways and habits to form. As this has not happened, it is not likely to now I'm afraid. 

I do think if you can put in an extra cat flap so Elise has another way out of the house it will help a lot. At present I wouldn't be surprised if one of the other two is blocking her from using the existing cat flap, because they see it as "their" territory. 

If you can install a flap safely in the upstairs window, so Elise can easily get out onto the garage roof (and back in again) that sounds a good idea. How would she get from the garage roof to the ground? You'd need some safe way down for her, too high to jump from there. One of my cats gets on the garage roof by jumping first on the wheelie bin, then onto the shed roof, then onto the garage. 

Do you have litter trays indoors/upstairs for Elise? I think that's essential really.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

To begin with we had 4 litter trays and all 4 were used but they all seemed to favour one tray. Elise used them perfectly for a few days after the move but then she stopped weeing in them but still continues to poo in them. All of them just use whatever tray they are nearest to at the time, there seems to be no ownership. 

At present we have one cat flap in the back door which Elsa and Elise are programmed into. Elsworth is an innie so is not programmed in and wont be until we get the garden cat proofed. Him and Elsa have developed a truce, they are by no means friends but she doesn't kick off at him anymore unless he gets too close but he is certainly allowed to get closer than he was which is a step in the right direction. 

Elise is still unsettled about going out, even if she is on her own and we open the door for her she is back in again within minutes. At the old house she would be out all day and night only popping in periodically. Now the whole thing has reversed which would be fine if she wanted to stay in but she came in last night, went straight upstairs to meow at the windows. I don't understand why she came in if she wanted to go back out especially as there were no other cats in the vicinity to put her off the cat flap. 

In terms of the behaviourist it is a last resort as I am sure you can appreciate funds are tight having just bought a house and they are not exactly cheap. 

Certainly a second cat flap is a definite consideration and we would just have to figure out how she gets up and down. There is a way as next doors cat has been on it but we haven't checked properly yet. We could put one in the front door instead but it depends how happy Elise is to come down and use it.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Elise is still struggling with the move and it is less to do with the others but the new environment. She went out at some point last night and came back 24 hours later but since being back in all she has done is pace and meow. If she is downstairs she wants to be upstairs despite Elsworth being directly outside the door. If we let her out the front door she comes back in through the flap and the cycle continues. 

She has had some food and a play with a plague rat but nothing settles her. 

She has been on a double dose of Zylkene for at least a week, we have a pet remedy running in the lounge, one on the landing and a Feliway in one of the bedrooms she sleeps in. During the day she sleeps on the windowsill and barely moves but at night she starts the pacing etc.

She wakes us up multiple times during the night so I am having to shut her in the kitchen so we can't hear her and she can get out if she wants to which is what she is used to.

I am completely at a loss as to how to ease her stress as keeping the others away make no difference. She clearly wants to live here as she keeps coming back yet she seems to not want to at the same time. 

I am sure time will be a great help, she will find her feet and will be back to normal again but I wish I could help her whilst she is clearly struggling.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm afraid I've a memory like a sieve did the girls get on before Elsworth arrived?

Elsie is obviously feeling uncomfortable being outside just yet as its all new & there's nothing familiar to comfort her & make her fell better - especially if she's not happy inside either

Do think you need to give her time to adjust and space away from the others to build her confidence so the spare room being 'hers' for now sounds good


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Elsa and Elise have always had a strained relationship. We homed them as a pair from CP, from the moment we got them home they barely interacted and from then things just disintegrated. Elsa used to chase Elise and things got really tense when I tried to keep them in a cat proofed garden. After that they stopped fighting but didn't acknowledge each others existence. When Elsworth came home things didn't change for the better or worse between them. The move has made Elise a lot more tense so she is on edge around Elsa which makes her more likely to have a go. Elsworth is much the same, he leaves Elsa alone but she is a lot more self assured so he picks up on that. 

I have just been sat outside with Elise but with Elsa being around she ended up running inside and then was being really insistent about going upstairs despite her being able to see Elsworth on the other side of the door! I ended up shutting him away and leaving the front door open and it seems she has finally made a decision and gone for a wander outside. 

I think she would really thrive somewhere with lots of land she can hunt on and no other cats but we can't give her that and the odds of finding that perfect home wanting to take in a 3 year old skittish black cat is highly unlikely. 

Elsworth and Elsa have most definitely reached a truce, they were even sharing a plate of chicken the other day. They seem to compliment each others personality. Elsworth isn't scared of Elsa so he can't be bullied but Elsa won't take any crap from him so he can't bully her either. 

I still haven't got to the bottom of Elsa's cystitis, the last time she had it was back in March before Elsworth even arrived so it isn't him. It came and went within hours, exactly like this bout did. 

Elise is still weeing in the house which she has done since the very beginning. It has always been when she wants to go out but can't, this time she can but she probably isn't comfortable just yet so she goes in the house to express her unhappiness. Interestingly in the old house she would sometimes have a wee in the litter tray and from Sat night to Tuesday morning in the new house she weed in the litter tray. From the Tuesday she started to go in the house although I think she is using the trays as well.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

To be honest I'd consider rehoming Elise as an only cat. I realise it's not easy either emotionally or practically, but I feel that everyone - all three cats, you and any family living with you - will be happier if you can find the right home for her.

Unfortunately rehoming 'problem' cats can be difficult even though in this case it's highly unlikely the problems will persist. However you never know.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with OrientalSlave ^^. Unfortunately as you say Oggers, it would not be the easiest thing to rehome a black cat, especially one who has toiletting problems. At the Shelter we find it hard enough to rehome black cats who are calm, laid back and friendly. 

If you are not able to rehome her, then I think you have to try and set up your home so that she can live as independently of the other two as possible. It means dividing the house, so as far as the cats are concerned it becomes like 2 independent flats. Elise would have part of the house as her home, and by fitting a door to the stairs (top or bottom), putting in a microchip cat flap and only scanning in Elise's chip, you would ensure the other two could not get in to her space. 

Then you would also need to fit another cat flap so that Elise is more likely to have unfettered access to the outdoors. It doesn't matter if the other two use the 2nd cat flap, the point is that Elise would have more than one entry point to the house so would be less likely to be blocked from entering by one of the other two. 

I would also allow Elise, once she is used to the new house, to have free access to the outdoors, as for her to be contained within an enclosed garden with 2 cats she dislikes is going to make her unhappy. Unless the "garden" is a couple of acres! 

I have seen these kind of separate living arrangements for cats work well, and I'm afraid it may be the only way Elise is going to have any real quality of life, bless her, if you can't rehome her.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I never intended to keep either of the girls in the cat proofed garden. Elise needs a bigger territory and Elsa prefers the choice yet 9/10 she is in the garden. Elsworth doesn't know any better and I think he will be content as a garden cat. 

However I don't know if I should be letting him out as a way of keeping the peace? I really don't want to and whatever happens he will never have as much freedom. 

If the garden is cat proofed then my plan was to put an ordinary cat flap in the back door and the dual scan in the front door for the girls. 

Hubs is not keen on a cat flap in the upstairs window and at the moment I am unsure which room will be turned into a nursery. If it is the smaller room then I can't have Elise coming and going during the night as I do not want a baby unsupervised around any of the cats. I don't want to give her something and then in a few months/a couple of years take it away again. I need to get this sorted now for the long term whilst I can devote my undivided attention to the cats. 

If things are still rocky next year then I will see if I can get a behaviourist. I don't want to do anything drastic just yet as she still needs time to settle. In the meantime I will continue with the Zylkene, put in a cat flap in the front door and see how we get on.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Has Elise been to the vets to see if she has a uti? Might account for the restless behaviour and weeing everywhere?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> Has Elise been to the vets to see if she has a uti? Might account for the restless behaviour and weeing everywhere?


She hasn't but I have mentioned it to the vet who didn't think it was that. The weeing is very methodical in a way, when Elsa had cystitis she was going everywhere, with Elise she chooses a spot and goes for a proper wee. It has always occurred when she has been shut in, never when she has had free access (apart from now) She is due her booster soon actually so I think I will have a proper chat with the vet whilst she is there and see what they say.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I wonder if Elisa still likes to play. Do you play with her? Do you play with Elsa? You are also part of their territory. Do you feel like they both have equal access to you? 

I think cats are very sensitive and some rely on our attention a great deal. How about significantly increasing positive interactions - like grooming, playtime, feeding a few treats - with Elisa to see if this helps with her behaviour issues.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Elsa just went for Elise. Elsa was sitting in the kitchen when Elise tried to walk past and she got hit for it. Elise has now retreated upstairs again. 

Elsa will play a bit as will Elise but it is rare and they have to be in one of those moods. Yesterday I sat outside with Elise giving her treats but Elsa went for her again. 

If I could stop Elsworth chasing Elise they may actually be ok together. She is not scared of him in the same way she is of Elsa but the chasing obviously makes her very grumpy. 

Clearly re homing Elsworth is not the answer, I said if things didn't work out then he would have to go back to the breeder. However if he went then I would still be left with two cats who don't get on so I haven't really solved any problems. His arrival hasn't sparked off the war between them, there has been an under current for 3 years now. 

If I rehome Elise then I am left with two cats who tolerate each other but Elsa will still go for Elsworth if she is that way out. The difference is Elsworth bounces back. He will be put out for a second but he will shrug it off. He wouldn't go and retreat upstairs. 

If I rehome Elsa then I rehome the antagonist which would give Elise her confidence back. However I then have 2 cats who may or may not get on. I don't know if Elsworth's chasing is due to him being a kitten and he will grow out of it or if he is bullying Elise. He isn't aggressive in the same way Elsa is to her but it still upsets her. 

At the moment I have Elise upstairs out of the way, Elsa sat at the patio doors and Elsworth mooching around being Elsworth. Elsa doesn't phase him at all but if the only cat he has is Elsa he may start chasing her although Elsa will not allow such behaviour and it isn't possible to chase a cat that doesn't run. She just sits there glaring at bim when he gets into his stalker pose, he always thinks better of it which is wise. 

Either way whatever decision I make has to be agreed with hubs and he won't agree with any suggestions so far (extra cat flap, giving Elise her own room) so I have my work cut out!


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Probably way off here but could you try putting Elsa in a cattery for a week or two or more? That would give things time to settle down and see if Elsie starts to regain her confidence. I know that two weeks isn't very long and might not be long enough but you might get some idea as to how things will go.

I have a vaguely similar problem here with April. She is just all round aggressive and whilst she doesn't allow herself to full on attack she will hiss and paw at the others. Normally there is a fragile truce between them but April has taken it upon herself to pretty much move out over the summer and now lives in the garden. Peace has descended upon the house and incidents of spraying or peeing outside the litter box have all but disappeared - everybody is much more chilled. I'm lucky - I have a big garden (near on an acre in a reasonably isolated rural area) with lots of sheds and chicken coops and basically just cat heaven so April loves it out there. I just hope she doesn't want to move back in for winter!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

rox666 said:


> Probably way off here but could you try putting Elsa in a cattery for a week or two or more? That would give things time to settle down and see if Elsie starts to regain her confidence. I know that two weeks isn't very long and might not be long enough but you might get some idea as to how things will go.
> 
> I have a vaguely similar problem here with April. She is just all round aggressive and whilst she doesn't allow herself to full on attack she will hiss and paw at the others. Normally there is a fragile truce between them but April has taken it upon herself to pretty much move out over the summer and now lives in the garden. Peace has descended upon the house and incidents of spraying or peeing outside the litter box have all but disappeared - everybody is much more chilled. I'm lucky - I have a big garden (near on an acre in a reasonably isolated rural area) with lots of sheds and chicken coops and basically just cat heaven so April loves it out there. I just hope she doesn't want to move back in for winter!


It isn't a bad idea but it will have to be in a few months once we have sorted the house out.

Elise would love that kind of set up, I had considered giving her a shed and cat proofing around it so that Elsworth can't get to her but she can still have access to the outside. Elsa doesn't bother with her outside. It isn't ideal as she does like her home comforts but it beats her feeling picked on all the time.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> Elsa just went for Elise. Elsa was sitting in the kitchen when Elise tried to walk past and she got hit for it. Elise has now retreated upstairs again.


You need to find a way to stop this happening - it certainly won't be improving things and will be stressing Elsie out even more 

She has to have a safe access route into / out of the house - if OH won't allow another cat flap then you need to have an some sort of separation of areas in the house so Elsie can move around without the risk of being attacked / chased etc

I went for years (before mine were totally separated) with one going in / out the front door (while the other was shut in the lounge) and the other going in / out the back door (while the other was shut out of the lounge) - otherwise the one that was in would pounce on / attack the one going in / out

It could be a PITA but it was the only way of (at that time) keeping them safe - and it worked for a long time



oggers86 said:


> If I could stop Elsworth chasing Elise they may actually be ok together. She is not scared of him in the same way she is of Elsa but the chasing obviously makes her very grumpy.


Is he maybe learning this by watching Elsa?



oggers86 said:


> Clearly re homing Elsworth is not the answer, I said if things didn't work out then he would have to go back to the breeder. However if he went then I would still be left with two cats who don't get on so I haven't really solved any problems. His arrival hasn't sparked off the war between them, there has been an under current for 3 years now.


BUT it's not helped either - whereas before there were 2 who squabbled / tolerated, now poor Elsie is having to put up with chasing / bullying from 2 of them



oggers86 said:


> If I rehome Elsa then I rehome the antagonist which would give Elise her confidence back.
> 
> However I then have 2 cats who may or may not get on. I don't know if Elsworth's chasing is due to him being a kitten and he will grow out of it or if he is bullying Elise. He isn't aggressive in the same way Elsa is to her but it still upsets her.


Which again highlights that adding a third hasn't helped as before rehoming one might've been the solution whereas you're now looking at possible having to rehome 2 of them

If you don't want to rehome and OH won't have a cat flap upstairs so Elsie can come & go without fear, then dividing the house seems the only other option


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> You need to find a way to stop this happening - it certainly won't be improving things and will be stressing Elsie out even more
> 
> She has to have a safe access route into / out of the house - if OH won't allow another cat flap then you need to have an some sort of separation of areas in the house so Elsie can move around without the risk of being attacked / chased etc
> 
> ...


Adding a third probably didn't help and maybe in hindsight I should have rehomed one of them a while back but there is no way I could have chosen between them. I knew a kitten would try and chase but I honestly thought after a few swats/growls he would get the message. He definitely has with Elsa and sometimes with Elise. Watching them earlier, she growled, he backed off and then ran past her before stopping, watching her and then running off. It really seemed like he wanted her to chase him and he was just playing. Maybe he is frustrated that he won't play with her?

Both cats are used to having 24/7 access to outside so I need Elsa and Elsworth in one part of the house and Elise in another. During the day Elsa and Elsworth spend their time downstairs and Elise upstairs so it seems logical to give Elsa access to the back door cat flap and Elise the front door. They can still see each other through the glass which is fine but Elise feels secure that she won't get chased.

The trouble is that at night Elsworth sleeps with us, swapping the girls round isn't going to work with the cat flaps so I either leave him downstairs or shut him in our bedroom until one of us gets up.

Hopefully Elsworth will grow out of the chasing, Elise will find her feet which should help reduce some of the tension.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I give up, everything is just shot down.

Extra cat flap in front door: No
Cat flap in upstairs window: No
Dividing the house: No
Rehoming Elise as an only cat: No

So basically she has to continue living upstairs because time will sort things out. Time will sort it out but for the sake of £85 when we are not exactly destitute surely an extra cat flap in the front door is not exactly a big deal. We have been planning to put the existing one in there anyway and if we don't need a second one in a few months then we sell it for a cheap price like we did with the old one.


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

Can I just throw something else into this mix? Apologies if I've not totally understood everything, however ... 

Could it be that the cat flaps may actually be adding to the problem? I would definitely not be considering getting another (I'm not a fan of them anyway), it can often be the case that cat flaps can actually increase anxiety, especially when cats have issues with others outside. Imagine yourself going to bed leaving your front door wide open . You would hear every noise, worry about someone coming in that shouldn't and you'd be very stressed by it all. It has been suggested that some cats see cat flaps as just that - large holes in the walls of their 'safe' areas. Whilst I realise yours are controlled by microchip access, sadly our cats do not understand this and just see these holes as access points for all and sundry. 

Have you read any of Vicky Halls' books? She is a cat behaviourist and her books feature lots of case studies from people trying to understand and help their cats. I cannot recommend these books highly enough, I loved them and learnt a lot. Much of what she talks about is of course common sense once it's pointed out. 

I really hope that you can get to the bottom of this and come to some resolution for your kitties.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> Elsa just went for Elise. Elsa was sitting in the kitchen when Elise tried to walk past and she got hit for it. Elise has now retreated upstairs again.
> 
> Elsa will play a bit as will Elise but it is rare and they have to be in one of those moods. Yesterday I sat outside with Elise giving her treats but Elsa went for her again.
> 
> If I could stop Elsworth chasing Elise they may actually be ok together. She is not scared of him in the same way she is of Elsa but the chasing obviously makes her very grumpy.


The reason I mentioned games and playtime is because I think both your girls need to find more outlets for their energy. Perhaps if they focus on a toy to chase and hunt, maybe they will just become more relaxed. I came to this conclusion by observing my two cats. There are days when I can't spend too much time playing with them and I noticed the little scuffles break out more often then. But whenever I come up with interactive games and have 1:1 sessions they seem just fine. I usually instigate a game otherwise they would be asleep for hours :biggrin:
What do you think? Would it be a worthy experiment to encourage your cats to play with you? Hubby can join it too


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oggers I think you can manage without cat flaps very well as long as you are prepared to live your life jumping up to let your cats in and out of the house whenever they require it. Also if the cats were out and didn't come back when you called them before you wanted to go out yourself, then you'd be stuck. You'd have to leave them shut out of their home, even in bad weather. But perhaps your OH can guarantee to be at home for the cats every time you want to go out? That could work. 

I have always had cat flaps for my cats, as I like my cats to have autonomy during the daytime with freedom to come and go when they please. At night time of course the cats are shut in and the flap locked. 

It is true that in some circumstances the old non-chip cat flaps could be a problem for some people, with strange cats being able to get in to the house, and upsetting the resident cats. This is why chip cat flaps were developed, and have put paid to that risk.  

I like Vickie Halls and have a couple of her books. I often agree with her views, though not always. I don't recall reading her views on cat flaps, but my view is that if strange cats have never been able to get in to a house through a (chipped) cat flap then the resident cats have no experience of being intruded upon in their safe haven by strange cats. 

Cats are logical, practical creatures, and if they have had no experience of something they have no reason to fear it happening. So they would not fear a cat entering through a safe cat flap, any more than they would fear a strange cat getting through a closed outer door.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> I honestly thought after a few swats/growls he would get the message. He definitely has with Elsa and sometimes with Elise. Watching them earlier, she growled, he backed off and then ran past her before stopping, watching her and then running off. It really seemed like he wanted her to chase him and he was just playing. Maybe he is frustrated that he won't play with her?


Maybe he is & maybe she would've played with him but her confidence has to be at rock bottom and she's probably almost expecting him to chase / bully her because Elsa does it to her



oggers86 said:


> During the day Elsa and Elsworth spend their time downstairs and Elise upstairs so it seems logical to give Elsa access to the back door cat flap and Elise the front door. They can still see each other through the glass which is fine but Elise feels secure that she won't get chased.


That sounds good 



oggers86 said:


> The trouble is that at night Elsworth sleeps with us, swapping the girls round isn't going to work with the cat flaps so I either leave him downstairs or shut him in our bedroom until one of us gets up.


She needs to feel safe so it looks like you may need to shut him in with you and see if that helps things



oggers86 said:


> So basically she has to continue living upstairs because time will sort things out. Time will sort it out


Sorry but I don't see how that is going to happen - if they've not got on for 3 years their relationship is pretty much past salvaging (believe me, I've been there!)

And unless Elsie can find confidence to put Elsworth in his place (and keep doing it!) very soon, he's going to walk all over her too

If she doesn't feel safe outside / and she doesn't feel safe inside ..... that's not fair on her at all I'mafraid


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

The reason the cats have 24/7 access is because in the past there have been problems when they have been restricted. In the old house Elise would wee outside of the litter tray when she was kept in overnight. From March this year we gave them access back which we had restricted from November and the weeing stopped until the 3rd day in in the new house. That prompted us to show her around and then install the cat flap so she could go out if she wanted. The weeing has decreased since but is still happening probably due to her feeling unsettled. She will go out the front door if we open it but more often than not she comes back in through the cat flap within minutes.

When I kept Elsa in the cat proofed garden she would end up being frustrated and took it out on Elise. Once she was allowed out again their relationship improved. 

They have shown no fear of the cat flap since instsllomh5it 2 years ago and have never had to deal with strange cats in the house.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Maybe he is & maybe she would've played with him but her confidence has to be at rock bottom and she's probably almost expecting him to chase / bully her because Elsa does it to her
> 
> That sounds good
> 
> ...


Nope I agree but hubs doesn't. Not much I can do!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Does your OH always get his own way in your house?   Not sure why his opinion is more important than yours when it comes to the cats...isn't it mostly you who looks after them, feeds them etc?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Does your OH always get his own way in your house?   Not sure why his opinion is more important than yours when it comes to the cats...isn't it mostly you who looks after them, feeds them etc?


Feels like it! Yes I pay for everything unless it's a vets bill. He thinks I am being impatient which I am known for but something like this needs to be addressed sooner rather than later I feel. As she doesn't stay out for long and doesnt want to go out on the roof she doesn't need an extra cat flap.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

You have described eloquently to us how distressed Elise is, to the point where I can picture the situation clearly in my mind's eye. It is apparent you are in tune with how she feels, and you have instinctively come up with a solution that may help the lass feel a bit happier and more in control of her life. 

IMO your empathy and understanding of your cats, and their needs, are to be valued and respected. The situation has not improved; it won't get better on its own. The hostility between the 2 girls has become habitual, and worse, as Elsworth grows up he may possibly join forces with Elsa against Elise. 

There needs to be some action, some intervention, to change the dynamics of the relationship between the girls. Giving Elise more freedom to come and go may just boost her confidence enough so that she can cope better with Elsa's bullying. I think Elise needs that kind of support to help her. Otherwise she is struggling on her own.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Oggers, I've looked up for you Jackson Galaxy's website:
Little Big Cat | Mind-Body Consulting for Cats
There are many interesting tips there on cat behaviour. Have a look and maybe you'll find some tips to help your feline family 

Have you seen any episodes of "My Cat from Hell" on Animal Planet? I'm just reading his book to better understand my two kitties.

And I fully understand you need to watch your budget and will pay for a cat behaviourist as a last resort. I actually only paid £50 for mine (one visit for 90 minutes and a full written report plus support by phone and email after the visit). I am aware some experts will charge much more  maybe it's worth to do some research and find out how much experts in your area charge for visits. I called my vet and simply went with their recommendation. It was worth every penny for us


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Today there was a small glimmer of hope. Last night Elise went out through the front door and again through the cat flap. This morning she came to hit me in the face for food which she hasn't done in ages. We both went out for a bit before she went back inside. Elsa didn't bat an eyelid and I didn't allow Elsworth any opportunities to chase. 

Things are still not fixed and I am sure an extra cat flap would perhaps ease the situation but Elise is definitely feeling a bit less unsure which is much better than not at all. Elsa has now gone back to her old pre Elsworth self and seeking me out for attention so I think she is finally settled. 

Elsworth has started to poo in places again as well as the litter tray. At first it seemed to be when I changed something (guest stayed over, moved litter tray) but the last week or so nothing has drastically changed. We have been doing some sanding in the lounge and I have been stripping wallpaper upstairs but surely that can't affect him? 

R.e cat behaviourists, several hundred is not an option but £50-£100 we could stretch to but again it is convincing hubs that it isn't a con and worth the money. He has very old fashioned views when it comes to the cats which is why we clash. 

I just want to have happy cats who feel like they can live together in peace. The more stressed they are the more stressed I am which is a viscous cycle! Maybe I need some zylkene for humans never mind the cats!!!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> <snip>
> 
> We have been doing some sanding in the lounge and I have been stripping wallpaper upstairs but surely that can't affect him?
> 
> ...


It's does exist, it's better known as Gin.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> R.e cat behaviourists, several hundred is not an option but £50-£100 we could stretch to but again it is convincing hubs that it isn't a con and worth the money. He has very old fashioned views when it comes to the cats which is why we clash.


I've been looking into a behaviourist for Mia - I did eventually find one literally on my doorstep (not easy in rural Scotland as most seem to be over in the west or miles away) BUT it was £280 

I think the charges have been geared to people claiming off their insurance (it's mentioned on his website many people do this ) and also because they are very thin on the ground near here so no competition 

We've just changed insurers so I'm not 100% sure if it would be classed as pre-existing and, at that amount, I'm afraid I can't afford to chance it atm

Hope you find someone cheaper!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So last night was eventful! Got home around midnight, Elise was on the bottom step, Elsworth in front of the door. After picking him up and waiting Elise went out all fine. 10 minutes later she was back in through the cat flap and walked past the other two who were milling around no issues. Another 10 or so minutes later she comes back down, walks past Elsa to the kitchen, I had hold of Elsworth. When she walks past to go upstairs the other two are sat on the floor almost presenting a united front but nothing kicks off and Elise continues on her way.

1am her and Elsworth had an encounter as I was getting ready for bed. She came into the bedroom and he jumped on her. I shut her out and him in but she starts pawing at the door to come in so I open the door and Elsworth walks out cue growling from Elise. After that everything is quiet and he comes to bed.

At some point in the night we were woken up by Elise trying to wee next to our bed so she had purposely come into the room with Elsworth. We shut her downstairs (Elsa was nowhere to be seen) firstly in the lounge but we could hear her at the door so we shut her in the kitchen so we could sleep. If we had let her back upstairs she would have continued to meow. 

This morning she is on the roof wanting to come in, saunters past Elsworth into her room to sleep. 

However he did a poo on the bath mat in our ensuite. I put the one he pooed on in the main bathroom yesterday in the wash and placed the litter tray in the 3rd bedroom directly in the middle of the room so nothing was blocking either side and then the one from the second bedroom in our ensuite which was completely unused. The last few days he has been pooing on the spare bed so I took the quilt off and the day after he pooed in his tray but since then twice on a bathmat. 

He started the pooing in the old house after a friend stayed over. After putting everything back it stopped for a month apart from once in his play cube which I thought was down to us shutting him in the other bedroom for half an hour as he was being a pest. 

It started again just before his cattery stay mid August, I found two lots of poo on the spare bed. After the cattery there was nothing, a week later we moved house. First night fine, second night poo on the sofa. Added an extra tray and all was fine apart from a week later there was a poo next to the litter tray. All fine for 3 weeks until the other day when it started again. Other than stripping wallpaper and sanding all by hand nothing has changed apart from the other two decreasing their use of trays. I don't think Elsa uses them at all and I think Elise has stopped as there has been no poo in there and not enough wees for two of them to be going. I have an extra covered tray downstairs in the kitchen, I took the fourth away a couple of weeks ago as it wasn't being used.

Is he marking his territory? It started when he was 6 months and he will be 8 months in a few days so I wondered if he was trying to claim the house as his? He was neutered in late May early June at 5 months and had been consistently using his tray from April when he came home at 14 weeks. 

Hubs and I have agreed we need a cat behaviourist as we need someone to help us understand. We have agreed to put the cat flap on hold and spend the money on someone with answers. 

How do I go about finding one? Will they focus on all three cats and all problems and not just one? Do Pet Plan pay out for one or is it an exclusion? The girls are with Healthy Pets and I am certain they exclude it. 

Really hope we can get to the bottom of this without having to rehome. It is my biggest fear that they will tell me one or more have to go...


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oh dear  sorry to hear things are deteriorating litter tray wise - a sure sign they're stressed

Great that you've decided to consult a behaviourist

I'm not sure if you'd be able to book it through say Elsworth's insurance (I think this needs a referral from your vet) and obviously, the other 'issues' would come out whilst you were discussing him

Looking for one - I'd ask your vet in first (as it is likely a vet referral would be needed for an insurance claim) as they might have someone they work with

Alternatives are to search online - that's what I did

With me, it was really a case of finding someone within 2 hours distance being the first issue - I would then look for recommendations from people they've treated (again another reason one recommended by your vet is good as they'll have had people use them before)


Good luck


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It sounds like Elsworth is maddening which can be down to territory issues, and combined with the fact that he and Elis are doing it, I'd say this might be part of the problem. I really don't envy you...


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I called my vet practice when I needed an expert. I was very clear I needed a cat behaviourist and not a dog expert. Once I go the phone number of this expert, I decided to interview her first and she was very friendly on the phone and asked great questions. So I felt confident enough to invite her home. She observed both cats and prepared a report with tips how to improve their interactions. 

If there are a few vets in your area, perhaps call them all to see if they all work with the same cat behaviour expert or different ones. To be on a safe side, maybe even ask to speak to one of the cat owners who recently used this expert to get their opinion. Get some quotes on the price per consultation and then call your insurance company to find out if they may cover this expense as your cats are unsettled in the new house :wink:

Regarding the poop outside the litter tray, my Daisy recently started using the bathmat too  I really have to clean the main litter trays as soon as she uses them otherwise I find a "deposit" in the bathroom. Well what a shame I have a full time job and can't be on a toilet cleaning duty full time :lol:


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> It sounds like Elsworth is maddening which can be down to territory issues, and combined with the fact that he and Elis are doing it, I'd say this might be part of the problem. I really don't envy you...


Lol thanks, I don't envy me too! I did think it might be middening but one article suggested if he covered with something (I.e. The quilt, bathmat) then he wasn't?

I hope things don't go downhill when we have a human baby next year. I can't cope with all of it so I need to ask the behaviourist what to expect and how to fix it.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Didn't realise he was covering it too... Have you tried all the obvious things of open trays, closed trays, different litters etc?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Didn't realise he was covering it too... Have you tried all the obvious things of open trays, closed trays, different litters etc?


Yes we have 2 open, 1 covered. He came to me on paper based litter which I put in an open tray but then naturally switched to Tigerino wood clumping so I chucked the paper stuff. Have used OKO, Greencat and now a mix of GC and Golden Pine.

I haven't tried clay litter as I didn't want him eating it.

In the old house I had one open tray, one covered upstairs and a covered downstairs.

In this house I have always had 2 open upstairs and one or two covered downstairs.

Now I have just spotted another poo in the litter tray in the ensuite. I put the poo from the bath mat in there so he would associate it with poo. Now I don't know if he did a poo in there after I left for work and hubs didn't realise so didn't scoop or if he did one this afternoon. If it was the former that *could* explain this episode as Elise had done a poo in the other one and the door to downstairs was shut. If it was after then perhaps he needs reminding?

He is definitely covering as when you walk into the room you can't see it. If it isn't fresh you can't always smell it (I nearly sat on it when it was on the bed!)

He doesn't poo on our bed, it has always been the spare bed which still has the same bedding from the old house and hasn't been washed or slept in. He doesn't poo on it if there is no quilt on it. The first couple of times in the old house there was no tray in there, just the bathroom but after that I put back the open one. He has pooed on the sofa twice (covered litter tray next to the sofa, access to two other open ones), in his play cube once (open litter tray next to it) and on the floor right next to the open litter tray but I did put that down to hubs not scooping.

Hubs told me yesterday that the other day he full on mounted Elise and grabbed her neck like he was trying to mate with her. She was spayed before we got her with her sister and obviously he has been neutered now for around 4 months. Sometimes with Elise nothing she does stops him whereas with Elsa on the rare occasions he pushes his luck a brief hiss stops him in his tracks. Then again Elsa pays no attention to her warnings either and will lash out. More often than not it is because Elise got too close but there have been occasions when Elise has just walked into a room.

I think they used to play fight, just after we got them there seemed to be mutual chasing and mutual fighting (rolling around on the floor) Then the chasing got one sided and there was never any rolling around as Elise just runs away.

Their behaviour towards each other hasn't deteriorated since Elsworth but the move has caused tension, maybe because now Elise is in more.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The mounting can sometimes be a dominance one too. Have you got Elis on Zylkene? Guessing you have, but thought I'd check.

GC, GP and Oko are all along the same lines and same-ish smell, so it wouldn't really classify as a new litter you've tried. Try something pelleted and something finer grained as sometimes the change in surface texture can help. He's always choosing soft surfaces, so you could also try just putting a puppy pad or a human inco pad in the bottom of a tray with nothing else. Have you tried the Cat Attract or Clean N Tidy for kittens? This actually draws cats to the tray, and although it's clay, he's past the stage where he should be eating litter. It's not often that I advocate for clay, but especially with a short hair, you should have little or no problems with him ingesting it.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Oggers, are you still painting and decorating in the new house? If so I wonder how this affects all 3 cats. The cat's nose is 30 times more sensitive than ours, and I guess the hearing is at least 10 times more acute too. So if perhaps you still need to finish painting and decorating, maybe worth putting all your kitties on Zylkene to minimise their stress levels. I wonder if that could help :001_smile:


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> The mounting can sometimes be a dominance one too. Have you got Elis on Zylkene? Guessing you have, but thought I'd check.
> 
> Yep she has been on it for nearly 2 weeks, every day without fail.
> 
> GC, GP and Oko are all along the same lines and same-ish smell, so it wouldn't really classify as a new litter you've tried. Try something pelleted and something finer grained as sometimes the change in surface texture can help. He's always choosing soft surfaces, so you could also try just putting a puppy pad or a human inco pad in the bottom of a tray with nothing else. Have you tried the Cat Attract or Clean N Tidy for kittens? This actually draws cats to the tray, and although it's clay, he's past the stage where he should be eating litter. It's not often that I advocate for clay, but especially with a short hair, you should have little or no problems with him ingesting it.


I haven't tried any of that but I could give it a go. He does still like to eat stuff (toys, hair bobbles) but I can't see him eating litter as he has never shown an interest. Am going to give it a week of dedicated scooping and note making so I can see if there is a pattern. I do have a bag of golden pine which doesn't seem all that hard, could put that in a tray and see if it helps? I wonder if maybe I should completely replace the litter in one of the trays with new stuff anyway just incase he is a bit put off with the other two having used it? They all seemed fine using the same tray a couple of weeks ago though..



Ragdollsfriend said:


> Oggers, are you still painting and decorating in the new house? If so I wonder how this affects all 3 cats. The cat's nose is 30 times more sensitive than ours, and I guess the hearing is at least 10 times more acute too. So if perhaps you still need to finish painting and decorating, maybe worth putting all your kitties on Zylkene to minimise their stress levels. I wonder if that could help :001_smile:


We haven't really started yet, the only painting that has been done is tester colours, the wallpaper stripping and sanding has been done by hand so no loud noises. The washing machine makes more noise. Elsworth certainly doesn't seem wary as he sits there and watches or continues sleeping.

We are starting the painting next week but with the whole house to do it is going to take a while, then we are having a furniture delivery and a carpet put in. We did the same at the last house and it didn't seem to upset the girls who hadn't been with us that long so I can't see them being upset now especially as nothing we have been doing is causing a lot of noise or strong scents.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Golden Pine is really along the same lines as what you're using at the moment, so I wouldn't class it as a new litter.

I'd go to Pets at Home and try a bag of their Kitten Clean N Tidy. Itt has the cat attractant in it, so may actually also help Elis.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok so tomorrow I will get the kitten litter and put in one tray. In the second uncovered I have put fresh GP in (I might as well try it seeing as I have it) and left the covered one alone. 

I have created a tracker so we know what time we scoop, if the trays have been used and if there is any toileting elsewhere. 

I will do some research into a behaviourist because even uf the toileting gets better I think it is still worth doing to see if we can improve their relationship with one another. 

I knew adding a kitten in and moving house would cause tension but I didn't think it would be this bad! Still moving house was unavoidable so I couldn't really have stopped this from happening. I think even if we didn't have Elsworth Elise would still be struggling.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So removing the bath mat makes him go in the tray. Going to swap the litter over to the C&T and not put the quilt or bathmats back for a week or so.

Elise was being a bit more relaxed yesterday and Elsworth was being good and didn't chase her...until it got dark then she started acting skittish again. This morning Elise was on the bed with Elsworth within a foot and all was fine until he went for her. I looked over at them and he was staring at her with his ears back then seconds later meowed and leaped on her trying to get his arms around her neck and bite her. He jumped on her earlier when she was trying to get on the bed :-( 

He is definitely worse when she is acting all skittish, yesterday she seemed a lot more confident so he just ignored her even when she was walking away. It seems when she is feeling unsettled but sitting still he will pounce on her, when she isn't feeling unsettled she can walk about without being disturbed. 

Going to find out from PP if they will cover a behaviourist for Elsworth bullying Elise and as a result she is anxious. Whilst they are here they can see how all 3 interact and offer advice based on that.


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## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Oggers, fingers (and paws) crossed your insurance will cover the cat expert consultation fee  Defo worth asking.

I was just researching any info to help me understand why my Daisy recently used our bathmat instead of the litter tray. Here are the tips - general tips - I found on this US website:
EDIT: the website URL link seems to get blocked by PF so in case you're interested google Pam Johnson-Bennett

Wrong size litter box - should be 1 1/2 times the length of a cat
Wrong litter - best to be sand like and softer under a paw
Not enough litter in the tray - should be at least 3 inches deep
Covered litter boxes - they make a cat feel confined, they generate more odour as air doesn't get in to dry the litter, get dusty (and in the long run may cause asthma)
Dirty litter box - all litter needs to be replaced as per instructions on the litter bags and the tray cleaned thoroughly
Litter tray mats - some cats don't like the feel of these under their paws
Punishment for eliminating outside the tray only sends a confusing message - according to Pam - to a cat and as a result the cat may become more fearful of the cat parent and may instead understand that going to the toilet is bad regardless of the spot

I know what I'm "guilty of" :blush: Perhaps any of the above help you too.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Oggers, fingers (and paws) crossed your insurance will cover the cat expert consultation fee  Defo worth asking.
> 
> I was just researching any info to help me understand why my Daisy recently used our bathmat instead of the litter tray. Here are the tips - general tips - I found on this US website:
> EDIT: the website URL link seems to get blocked by PF so in case you're interested google Pam Johnson-Bennett
> ...


Litter changed today and as soon as I put it in the tray he did a wee and a poo in it!!

We now have that in an open tray as well as an open tray with a mix of GC and GP and a covered with GP. Whilst Elise is still unsettled I will keep 3 and then go to two full time ones with whichever litter/tray is the favourite.

Just curious though about why he doesn't cover poo in the litter tray but does if he goes on the bath mat. He covered the wee in the new litter but doesn't normally bother.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> Whilst Elise is still unsettled I will keep 3 and then go to two full time ones with whichever litter/tray is the favourite.


With 3 cats you should ideally have 4 trays so I certainly wouldn't reduce it to 2 (even if one is unused the vast majority of the time, it's there if there are any issues)

Neither of mine ever covered until I switched to GG (sand like) and now they both do so texture must certainly have something to do with it - also I guess things like if it sticks in their paws etc


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> With 3 cats you should ideally have 4 trays so I certainly wouldn't reduce it to 2 (even if one is unused the vast majority of the time, it's there if there are any issues)
> 
> Neither of mine ever covered until I switched to GG (sand like) and now they both do so texture must certainly have something to do with it - also I guess things like if it sticks in their paws etc


The girls don't set foot in them, Elsa has stopped using them completely now she is comfortable going out and Elise will be the same.

We only had 2 at the old house which worked out fine as the girls had 24/7 access to the outside. Elise is the reason I have 3 at the moment, I would rather her have somewhere to toilet if she doesn't feel comfortable going downstairs or outside. Obviously if she changes her mind about preferring to toilet outside then I may have to keep 3 but we shall see


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

So the kitten clay is a hit. I put my bath mats down yesterday and as of yet no poo on them or the bed. Elise has also been using it even for wees so fingers crossed it will continue. My only objection is the smell, I can't stand the scent of the litter so I think once this has been used I might go back to GG odour. Will this be as successful as it doesn't have the cat attract in? 

Elise is still a bit unsettled but slowly she is getting there. Her and Elsworth seem to have their ups and downs, one minute he jumps on her and she sounds like the world is ending, the next minute they are lying opposite each other a foot apart without a care in the world. Elise even had her eyes closed and was having a snooze so she obviously can't be that bothered by him or she would choose to snooze somewhere out the way, not right at the top of the stairs where just that evening she got herself stood on as he came barrelling up the stairs without a thought for anyone or anything in his way. 

This morning she was eating next to him without a peep, she has been coming downstairs for her food now whereas a bit ago I used to give her it upstairs. 

Going to speak to the vets about a behaviourist still but I am happy to wait until their boosters at the beginning of October.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

You can buy the cat attract stuff as an additive that you just put in normal litter.

Dr. Elsey&#39;s Cat Attract Litter Additive. 560gr (20oz): Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Well I spoke too soon about the poo free bathmats so we will just have to close the doors as they are clearly irresistible!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Have you tried the inco pad in the bottom of a tray?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Have you tried the inco pad in the bottom of a tray?


No I havent, sticking with the clay litter and just keeping the doors shut so that he gets in to the habit of pooing in the tray consistently.

Seems to be working so far 

Elise has also been using the trays, clay and wood but she is still unsettled about everything. She is venturing downstairs more and going out a tiny bit more so I think she is slowly (very slowly) starting to feel a bit more secure.


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