# Aggressive breed traits



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

**PLEASE READ POST #621 ON PAGE 63. THIS IS AN OLD THREAD AND THESE ARE NOT MY CURRENT VIEWS ON THE MATTER**

In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.

In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.

Although breeders will say "its the way the breed is", I don't buy this. We live in a very different society than we did when these breeds were created. Many dogs do not have a job or purpose now, other than being a family pet. IMO there is no room for guard dogs, or dogs with aggressive traits when the vast majority of pups born from these breeds will be pets and need to live in a tight community, with many dogs and people around them.

Breeding these traits into dogs is a disaster. I admit that if you train any breed of dog correctly, none will be aggressive, however the vast majority of dog owners can not handle such breeds or traits and therefore there is far more likely chance of the dog attacking and being put to sleep if there is already an aggressive trait bred into it.

All breeding dogs MUST have a superb temperament, very friendly to people, strangers, children, other dogs, and other animals. Breeding from dogs with far from perfect temperament is just asking for trouble, whatever the breed standard says.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Good breeders breed aggressive traits out of their breed by only using dogs with good temperments- it's just the numpties that breed for aggression


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sorry but I can't agree at all, well socialised dogs of ANY breed are just that, badly socialised and trained dogs are just that, and can be any breed. My brother has a rescue staffie who hadn't had the best start in life, and has kept staffies for years, all of his have been incredibly friendly dogs. Ok so they're not as dog orientated as other breeds, but that doesn't mean they should be resigned to the scrap heap as a breed, they've made great family pets and have all had fabulous characters.

Bad breeders and owners need banning, there's no such thing as a bad breed overall, although you will get a dog that is 'wired' wrong from time to time, they're an exception, not a rule where good breeders are concerned.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

So are you saying we should wipe out staffies and Akitas if so thats a bit ridiculous. Staffies and Akita's are perfectly fine with the correct training and socialisation like ANY dog.

What about show cockers that have that "cocker rage syndrome" should we wipe out all cockers? If so it that would mean wiping out your breed of dog...Doesn't feel to great to hear does it?

People like different breeds doe different reasons. 
ALL dogs can be human and dog aggressive. German shepherds, Collies, Yorkies, JRT, cockers, Springers the list is endless. It's about the dog itself. Only good examples of each breed should be bred from. My English setter is a stunner of a dog perfect example of the working type and healthy but we wouldn't EVER breed from her as she is skittish. 

I'm not sure whether you're talking about not breeding from certain dogs within the breed, which is obvious anyway or just stop breeding some breeds which tbh is ridiculous.


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.
> 
> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.
> 
> ...


I just want to pick up on your point i've highlighted, alot of "guard" breeds r used in military and police environments to great affect, they r very easy breeds to train in the right hands, u must understand your chosen breed and traits,they r not for everyone granted, I have 2 Rotts and have owned htis breed for 15 years, neither r that guardy, more like couch potatoes, both do obedience, one I use for show, they do have a purpose, IMO a very valid one, my parents own staffs, again lovley dogs in the right hands, it's more down to educating the numpties and pet owners on their repsonsibilities to their chosen breed and dog onwership in general rather than down to specific breeds, some jus shouldn't own anything, let alone a dog 

I had a few dogs in my time and can honestly say the ones we had some problems with were Labs and JRT's


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Did I say that staffies and akitas should be banned? I said that aggressive traits shouldn't be bred into the breed, so well tempered akitas and staffies should be bred. Basically all good breeders who breed good temperaments into their breeds, carry on. But the bad breeders who breed dogs with questionable temperaments that are _supposed _to be breed traits, shouldn't be breeding.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm sorry if i have read your post incorrectly but i comes across like you are saying that there is no place in society for staffies as they can be dog agressive. That is a horrible generalisation. I have a 2 year old staffie bitch, we have done LOTS of socialisation with her and we have a happy dog friendly staffie, she loves to play with other dogs, loves people and loves life. Infact my staffie has been attacked three times in her life, twice by different boxers and once by a lab, on every occasion she hasn't really retaliated, she cowers and cries and tries to get away, she is very submissive. After every incident we have done lots of postive work eith other friendly dogs so she doesn't become upset by the attack and we still have a dog friendly staffie. Why should my dog have no place in society? Surely the boxers and the lab that attacked her have no place in society? (I am not saying that i think boxers and labs have no place in society, i don't for one minute blame the dogs that attacked her i blame the owners, as every time thay have made some comment, oh she can be funny with staffies, oh she can be funny with other bitches and oh he can be funny with littler dogs, well sorry it is obvious that my dog is a staffie, is a bitch (wears a bright pink harness) and is smaller than your dog so keep them away from her!!!)


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> I'm sorry if i have read your post incorrectly but i comes across like you are saying that there is no place in society for staffies as they can be dog agressive. That is a horrible generalisation. I have a 2 year old staffie bitch, we have done LOTS of socialisation with her and we have a happy dog friendly staffie, she loves to play with other dogs, loves people and loves life. Infact my staffie has been attacked three times in her life, twice by different boxers and once by a lab, on every occasion she hasn't really retaliated, she cowers and cries and tries to get away, she is very submissive. After every incident we have done lots of postive work eith other friendly dogs so she doesn't become upset by the attack and we still have a dog friendly staffie. Why should my dog have no place in society? Surely the boxers and the lab that attacked her have no place in society? (I am not saying that i think boxers and labs have no place in society, i don't for one minute blame the dogs that attacked her i blame the owners, as every time thay have made some comment, oh she can be funny with staffies, oh she can be funny with other bitches and oh he can be funny with littler dogs, well sorry it is obvious that my dog is a staffie, is a bitch (wears a bright pink harness) and is smaller than your dog so keep them away from her!!!)


no, you've read my post incorrectly. I didn't say that staffies shouldn't be bred, just dog aggressive ones. Well tempered staffies should be bred as they are a lovely breed.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Did I say that staffies and akitas should be banned? I said that aggressive traits shouldn't be bred into the breed, so well tempered akitas and staffies should be bred. Basically all good breeders who breed good temperaments into their breeds, carry on. But the bad breeders who breed dogs with questionable temperaments that are _supposed _to be breed traits, shouldn't be breeding.


It sounded like you didnt think the breeds in general shouldn't be bred. But in this case no of course breeders shouldn't be breeding bad temperaments and the good ones aren't.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sorry read your second post, and I agree to a certain extent, I think it depends on the type of agression, surely fear agression is a socialisation problem, dogs that are agressive because they are fearful of something although not ideal surely can loose the fear agression if better socialised with whatever it is that they are fearful off? I may be wrong on that though.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> *In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred. *
> 
> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.
> 
> ...





SEVEN_PETS said:


> *Did I say that staffies and akitas* should be banned? I said that aggressive traits shouldn't be bred into the breed, so well tempered akitas and staffies should be bred. Basically all good breeders who breed good temperaments into their breeds, carry on. But the bad breeders who breed dogs with questionable temperaments that are _supposed _to be breed traits, shouldn't be breeding.


That is exactly how it reads, and staffies and akitas are not renowned for these things, nowhere in their breed standard does it say they're aggressive or that the should be bred to be.


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

U can have the best behaved dog in the world whatever breed, like i had until she was attacked twice, she is now fear aggressive, this is learned behavior not a trait as such, and something as a responsible onwer have to deal with !


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

In an ideal world only responsible people would breed well natured dogs.

But we dont live in an ideal world. We live in a world where if you get your Stafforshire Bull Terrier pregnant you can sell the pups for £50 each in a pub / on gumtree and make some dosh, esp if you crossbreed and make them larger / bulkier / tougher looking.

In an ideal world all puppys are socialised, everyone has pet insurance and all our dogs have perfect recall off lead.

One point I would like to make is even the best meaning of 'professional' breeders have bred some breeds to match 'Breed Standards' which does not always result in the healthiest animals physically or mentally.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That is exactly how it reads, and staffies and akitas are not renowned for these things, nowhere in their breed standard does it say they're aggressive or that the should be bred to be.


I said "Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, *only dogs with good temperaments should be bred*"

That suggests, surely, that good tempered staffies should be bred.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

There is another interesting discussion in the Dog breeding section "As breeders" is the title. 
Good breeders should never breed from stock (Sire and Dam) that exhibit aggression. I do agree with previous comments the most important thing you can do for a puppy is SOCIALISE it. I keep on and on about this to my puppy owners I have their first vaccine done at 8 weeks the second should be done at 10 weeks and then get them out there meet everyone and everything. 
Socialisation helps many breeds overcome their "breed traits". I know it may be a cliche but I do thing there are no such things as bad dogs just bad owners.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I said "Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, *only dogs with good temperaments should be bred*"
> 
> That suggests, surely, that good tempered staffies should be bred.


Read it again hun  I can see where the misunderstanding came from


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Read it again hun  I can see where the misunderstanding came from


oh yes, I can see it now. sorry guys, should have worded it like "only staffies with good temperaments should be bred".


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.
> 
> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.
> 
> ...


maybe in an ideal world you would need a licence to own these breeds, to stop them getting in to the wrong hands. Obviously this will never happen it would cost to much to police.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

It read to me that Staffies and Akitas should not be bred, too.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Unfortunately we are back to the byb, puppy farm, bad owner debate. I would think that it is a universal wish amonst any and all decent breeders and dog owners to avoid any form of unwanted aggression these days.
I have a dog from a breed that is widely accepted *not* to have aggressive traits but because of a bad breeder and previous bad owners she does sometimes show fear-aggression.
I really don't know what anyone can possibly do to curtail activity of every bad breeder and every bad owner.

I do appreciate what you are trying to say and agree with the principle though. It is sort of up there with world peace in the 'things that SHOULD happen' list.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> oh yes, I can see it now. sorry guys, should have worded it like "only staffies with good temperaments should be bred".


Haha thats okay hun  You've made your point clear now


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

I would still like to understand your comment "IMO there is no room for guard breeds" ?


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

I have to add that from our experience with Dalmatian Welfare (sorry to bang on about Dalmatians) we have problems with Dalmatians that have not been socialised. The breed standard for Dalmatians says they should be "friendly and outgoing free from fear and aggression." 
Well if you could see some of the cases we have had it would break your heart, one case we had a bitch (she was gorgeous) that had been kept in a crate for 4 years (never taken out of her crate the lounge or garden). She was so fear aggressive despite much input from behaviourists and lots of bites later we couldnt help her and sadly we had to have her PTS :cryin: 
This is an extreme example but we need to tell everyone that using breeding stock with sound temperaments and early, comprehensive socialisation makes all the difference to a dog and he or she having a happy life.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

I think it's a well-known fact that only dogs that are healthy and possess the very best of temperaments, should be bred; regardless of the breed. Perhaps I'm missing the point:blink:


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Dazadal said:


> There is another interesting discussion in the Dog breeding section "As breeders" is the title.
> Good breeders should never breed from stock (Sire and Dam) that exhibit aggression. I do agree with previous comments the most important thing you can do for a puppy is SOCIALISE it. I keep on and on about this to my puppy owners I have their first vaccine done at 8 weeks the second should be done at 10 weeks and then get them out there meet everyone and everything.
> Socialisation helps many breeds overcome their "breed traits". I know it may be a cliche but I do thing there are no such things as bad dogs just bad owners.


This is an interesting point - do you allow your pups to meet vaccinated dogs prior to the first vacc - there is no risk if they come to your home environment are are vaccinated themselves, presumably.....


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Ditsy42 said:


> I would still like to understand your comment "IMO there is no room for guard breeds" ?


Even if this were true, you have no worries, Rotti's are cattle herding dogs.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.
> 
> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.
> 
> ...


Don't reputable breeders do that already? How are you going to get that message through to puppy farmers and byb types, who don't even know about the breed's temperament, they just know it is a popular breed so they can make money out of it.

Stop the byb and puppy farmers and you will stop the temperament problems.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Chihauhau Angels wrote,


> I think it's a well-known fact that only dogs that are healthy and possess the very best of temperaments, should be bred; regardless of the breed. Perhaps I'm missing the point


Im not sure if your being sarcastic or not 
I could name dozens of people I know who own and breed dogs that have very poor temperaments some are very successful in the show ring and have positions on breed club committees and continue to do so. So the point is that no I don't think everyone has the message Chihuahua Angel.


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Even if this were true, you have no worries, Rotti's are cattle herding dogs.


They r yes but r also a guarding breed, and have been used for quite a few purposes in the past


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> oh yes, I can see it now. sorry guys, should have worded it like "only staffies with good temperaments should be bred".


I agree with it but i don't think it would help the breed, I have to live with the 'stigma' of owning a staffie of everyone assuming your dog with rip their dog/child/leg to shreads if she comes anywhere near you where as chance is she would much rather cuddle up to you giving kisses and tends to submit to most dogs including a 16 week old chi pup she once met (funniest thing to see a 15.5kg staff on her back with a chi pup stood over her like it had just conquered the world). The problem is even good neatured breeds can be made agressive so you only breed the good temperament staffies fine but if the people buying those puppies want to make them agressive they can do, you wind any dog up enough and push it and push it it will finally snap, I once saw a bloke with a staffie pup doing just that, it was obviously terrified and wet itself in fear but it wasn't until it snapped and growled he gave up, so the pup learnt if i snap and growl then he goes away and leaves me alone, so unfortunately even if you just breed the good natured staffies youa re still going to get the idiots that force their puppies to be dog and human agressive.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Malamutes commonly have same sex agression, if brought up well then you can get away with it and they may be good with other dogs. But as we already have both sexes and not enough experience of mallys we decided we couldnt put our current dogs at risk. 

They're wonderful dogs in the right hands though  I just wouldnt want the pressure of having to do it all right in case it turned out agressive, i'll leave that to the experienced mally people


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I said "Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, *only dogs with good temperaments should be bred*"
> 
> That suggests, surely, that good tempered staffies should be bred.


Sorry I was posting and dashing before and didn't mean to sound harsh when I quoted you, but no, the idea of only good examples of a breed with sound temperament being used, didn't spring to my mind when I read your post, just that dog aggressive breeds shouldn't be bred, and staffies and akitas were two examples. Unfortunately, if you did that, the mindless chavs that have given different breeds a bad name from the way they've used them, would just move on to the next breed, and so on and so on. Unfortunately, the only way that dogs of poor temperament will stop being produced is when people stop buying pups from poor breeders, or from unknown heritage such as pet supermarkets. It saddens me to think I will probably never live to see that day, so many people are just breeding for the sake of it 

Edited as I'm making no sense today, no change there then, chuckle ......


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Petloversdigest wrote


> This is an interesting point - do you allow your pups to meet vaccinated dogs prior to the first vacc - there is no risk if they come to your home environment are are vaccinated themselves,...


I have 5 Dogs that are all vaccinated and up-to-date with jabs etc. I have not yet introduced dogs from outside. I suppose in fear of them brining in infection from the environment, although of course my other dogs and Mom are walked at least twice daily. I have found by giving the first jab to my puppies (I also find a Vet that uses the 8 and 10 week regime and puppy training classes near each owner) has helped them all become happy well balanced dogs.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Does it follow/proven that a good temperament breeding dog will produce the same temperament in their pups?

Or is it a strong possibility? but not a given?

I'd like to think that the chances of it being like it's parent is high but sure the odd rogue will slip through :001_smile:

Same with aggression is that something a pup would inherit or something that is learnt?


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Dazadal said:


> Chihauhau Angels wrote,
> 
> Im not sure if your being sarcastic or not
> I could name dozens of people I know who own and breed dogs that have very poor temperaments some are very successful in the show ring and have positions on breed club committees and continue to do so. So the point is that no I don't think everyone has the message Chihuahua Angel.


Firstly, sarcasm isn't my thing. I leave that to others.

I was a little confused by the OP because I, like others, felt that the point being made was that breeds that showed aggression, should not be bred. However, that point was cleared up. A misunderstanding.

So my point was, as I said, that I thought it was a well-known fact that dogs with the best temperaments *SHOULD* only be used for breeding. There's nothing cryptic about what I said. So I'm confused as to why you're confused

As for people you know showing and breeding dogs with anything less that the very best of temperaments; well *shame on them*. I don't think it's a case that they DIDN'T get the message; more the case of NOT CARING because in some show peoples' eyes (*and I say SOME*), the most important thing is getting that rosette


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Does it follow/proven that a good temperament breeding dog will produce the same temperament in their pups?
> 
> Or is it a strong possibility? but not a given?
> 
> ...


There's no genetic test for it, but those who have been breeding for many years (not me I might add, still researching) do strongly believe that temperament is genetic, as is ability, so that just as a dog would inherit components of conformation from both sets of parents, it's 'natural' temperament and ability will also largely depend on parentage. I don't know anyone who works their dogs that would purposefully get a dog from uknown or non-working background, if they intended to work or compete the dog. A lot of what a dog does can be taught, but much of that is innate, and by using only dogs with good temperament you are much more likely to produce pups with good temperaments, although humans are capable of mucking that up completely.


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Dazadal said:


> Petloversdigest wrote
> 
> I have 5 Dogs that are all vaccinated and up-to-date with jabs etc. I have not yet introduced dogs from outside. I suppose in fear of them brining in infection from the environment, although of course my other dogs and Mom are walked at least twice daily. I have found by giving the first jab to my puppies (I also find a Vet that uses the 8 and 10 week regime and puppy training classes near each owner) has helped them all become happy well balanced dogs.


Interesting - I guess your own dogs will do the early socialisation for you - but you make a good point as technically you could bring infection home even on your shoes, so it seems odd to me to preclude bringing vacc dogs home to help with early socialisation where there a fewer dogs living at home to do this with.
It was sad to hear about the poor crated dog -what a crying shame - it's amazing what damage this does - it brings to mind things like when that guy kept his daughter prisoner all her young life - can anyone ever come back from this?
Sounds like your pups are fab and make the best of pets :thumbup:


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

cockerpoo wrote,


> Does it follow/proven that a good temperament breeding dog will produce the same temperament in their pups?
> 
> Or is it a strong possibility? but not a given?
> 
> ...


Good point cockerpoo. I have always been taught by breeders with many years experience that Sire and Dam should be of sound temperament. I'm sure its a combination of nature and nurture that shapes a dogs behaviour. 
I feel from my experience that the Dam emparts much of her temperament on her offspring. I'm sure there is evidence to support this mine is mainly from limited experience and from talking to experienced breeders and from anecdotal evidence. 
I suppose that two parents with sound temperament and socialisation is a minimum needed to give the best start possible.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think that some of the problem must stem from he fact that alot of guarding breeds have personalities that can easily be turned aggressive with bad upbringing/handling. Doesnt mean you should want a GSD or Rottie to be less of a watchdog or not care about strangers. They are both beautiful breeds with lovely personalities I should add!!
Its a shame you cant really control Staffie breeding though. Most of their bad traits are related to a job they no longer do. I dont think they are any more aggressive then other breeds (most seem very tolerant) its just when they do kick off they are hard to stop and can do alot of damage. They just need their love of people and soppy, playful side boosted abit!!


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Petloversdigest wrote


> Sounds like your pups are fab and make the best of pets


Thank you. :blushing:
I feel so strongly about puppy farming and poor breeding practices and I'm very passionate about it.  
I ran a busy medical ward in the NHS for many years and having a litter of 12 puppies for 8 weeks (or more) is the hardest work I have ever done and I used to go to work for a rest..seriously! I so strongly believe if you can't give any litter you breed and the new owners the best start then don't even contemplate breeding at all.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There's no genetic test for it, but those who have been breeding for many years (not me I might add, still researching) do strongly believe that temperament is genetic, as is ability, so that just as a dog would inherit components of conformation from both sets of parents, it's 'natural' temperament and ability will also largely depend on parentage. I don't know anyone who works their dogs that would purposefully get a dog from uknown or non-working background, if they intended to work or compete the dog. A lot of what a dog does can be taught, but much of that is innate, and by using only dogs with good temperament you are much more likely to produce pups with good temperaments, although humans are capable of mucking that up completely.


Thanks for your reply :001_smile:

Shame then that mums of good temperaments can't produce kids with the same ( that was said tongue in cheek BTW)


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Dazadal said:


> cockerpoo wrote,
> 
> Good point cockerpoo. I have always been taught by breeders with many years experience that Sire and Dam should be of sound temperament. I'm sure its a combination of nature and nurture that shapes a dogs behaviour.
> I feel from my experience that the Dam emparts much of her temperament on her offspring. I'm sure there is evidence to support this mine is mainly from limited experience and from talking to experienced breeders and from anecdotal evidence.
> I suppose that two parents with sound temperament and socialisation is a minimum needed to give the best start possible.


Thanks for your reply too :001_smile:


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Ditsy42 said:


> They r yes but r also a guarding breed, and have been used for quite a few purposes in the past


Same goes for Geese but they are lovely.......Well the potatoes are roasted in their fat :lol:

The Collie is also a guard of the farm yard still to this day.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Same goes for Geese but they are lovely.......Well the potatoes are roasted in their fat :lol:


Yes, but geese can be disruptive in a training class and they are rubbish at agility!!
:lol:


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

yeah but when your'e talking about temperaments then geese are.......


Quackers!!! 
sorry guys couldn't help myself


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> Yes, but geese can be disruptive in a training class and they are rubbish at agility!!
> :lol:


Aye an they can bloody nip an all lol, luv roasties done in goose and duck fat, yum yum


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have to agree that this is a moot point as many dogs that may have aggressive tendancies in their breed do not. I'd say the majority is at the fault of the owner, unless the breeder has knowingly put together two dogs with known aggression issues in the first place.

I had a friend who had the most goegeous Staffie who couldn't even look at another dog without snarling but her friend had his littermate brother and he was good as gold. My friend admitted she had spoilt him while he was growing up and kept him away from other dogs because she was afraid of fights.

That's a bit like me and Flynn, he has five brothers and one sister who meet regularly with other dogs and have no worries at all - where as Flynn is fear aggressive, mainly because I have sheltered him from other dogs.

No one wants to meet up with an aggressive dog but to say ceratin breeds have this in them is a bit narrow I feel, as there are many dogs on here, Staffie's and Akita's who are lovely dogs and fine with other dogs too.
Mals are a dog dominant breed but Kali and Marty are fine with other dogs, they wouldn't want a rough and tumble with them but they'll accept them - as they have T-Bo our new pup.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

IMO, Good husbandry, sound socialisation, training, love and attention=Happy healthy dog, of any breed.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

What about malamutes which can suffer from same sex aggression? No amount of socialisation can help with that as far as I'm aware it's just something you have to be aware of and know how to cope I don't think its anything that's is passed on either although I will admit to not looking into it alot tho!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Malamutes can suffer from aggression with any sex and not just same sex. Being dog dominant doesn't help but again plenty of early socialisation is the key and many Mals with this trait are from rescues, never having the correct upbrining and not socialising from an early age. Some Mals it just can't be trained out of, they are workers and born to run/pull if not given enough exercise and socialisation they can be buggers and even very experienced people have seperate packs.
Like any breed they are now bred by people who don't know how to either train or advise, just sold as any other dog and not a good start for any dog, let alone a Mal and are owned by people who are not aware of their determination.

I've never owned a dog like them, they are THE MOST food orientated dog i've ever known and they need lots of constant training right up to the age of three, often longer to get the dog you really want. I can still have moments with Kali, she is the most adorable people dog but she's quick to take on any of the dogs here, except Flynn, if she feels they need putting in line. 
On the whole though they don't go out of their way to have a go at a dog, but they will do it if the other dog starts on them and they never back down - well hardly ever!

Maya, on the other hand is beautiful and there are many like her on the Mal forum, so they're not always difficult in the right hands.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

hawksport said:


> A protection breed that sees every stranger as a best friend is not fit for function.


Why is there a need for a protection breed? And why shouldn't every dog of every breed see strangers the same as their family, ie very friendly to them?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Why is there a need for a protection breed? And why shouldn't every dog of every breed see strangers the same as their family, ie very friendly to them?


Coz you dont want your riot trained police dog to roll over for a tummy tickle whilst his handler gets stabbed to death???
A well tempered protection breed though would just avoid strangers and not be that interested in a pet setting though, surely?? Doesnt have be aggressive, just coz it isnt friendly.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Why is there a need for a protection breed? And why shouldn't every dog of every breed see strangers the same as their family, ie very friendly to them?


If you take this on a global scale, there are many many cultures that would never consider their dog as part of their family or as a pet. Their dogs are seen as having a job to do. Even in this country many have jobs. That is what they are bred for and they need traits that you may not think are suitable in a pet. They are suitable in a dog though.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Why is there a need for any breed, do you need a gundog?


Spot on. :001_smile:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Ooow God, I aint even friendly to strangers so I certainly wouldn't want my dogs to be, not over friendly anyway! Kali is so friendly that i'm trying to train her out of it. 

If i'm walking late at night, which I often am, the last thing I want is to be berfiended by a stranger and with dog napping on the rise i'd like to think that my dogs would put up a fight and at least protect me should the need arise! Well the Mals anyway, part of the pleasure in having a large dog as a woman on your own.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Ooow God, I aint even friendly to strangers so I certainly wouldn't want my dogs to be, not over friendly anyway! Kali is so friendly that i'm trying to train her out of it.
> 
> If i'm walking late at night, which I often am, the last thing I want is to be berfiended by a stranger and with dog napping on the rise i'd like to think that my dogs would put up a fight and at least protect me should the need arise! Well the Mals anyway, part of the pleasure in having a large dog as a woman on your own.


Although I don't particularly want Mia to attack, I have her here to deter anyone breaking into my property and stealing my hard earned goods, not to mention murdering us in our beds. Being publicans we are prime targets for people wanting goods they can sell, cash out of machines, takings (haha). The last thing I want is Mia being friendly to that stranger.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Yes, but geese can be disruptive in a training class and they are rubbish at agility!!
> :lol:


Im sure Ceaser Mallard could sort them out :lol:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I do think in the majority of cases that the breeds that are renowned for been aggressive are more like renowned for having irresponsible, stupid owners, Staffies come to mind here a lovely breed but too many fall into the wrong hands.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Characteristics
Appearance displays boldness and courage. Self-assured and fearless. Calm gaze should indicate good humour.

Temperament
Good natured, not nervous, aggressive or vicious; courageous, biddable, with natural guarding instincts.

This is for my breed, the rottie.

Have to say, rotties are very protective when a 'real' situation arises and I wouldnt have it any other way, yes, they prob do have aggressive traits still in them from way way back, seeing as they originate back to the Molossus breeds of ancient times, used for protection and war. Do I see this as a reason not to breed this magnificent breed? No, I do not, I strive to breed for not only type but temperament first and foremost. Like some other breeds, they are not a breed for everyone, they need strong leadership and many a time I have turned buyers away because I dont think they have the right type of character to own a rottie and will continue to do so.

My dogs would kill for me and my family in a real life threatening situation, especially my darling, soft as muck, Maddie, who is my special girl and sooo attached to me. We use Maddie as a gauge when buyers visit - if she doesnt like them, they dont get a pup, lol!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

My brother had 2 rotties fantastic dogs in every way, unfortunately not many share my views on the breed, and everytime it hearsay they have never owned one or actually know one personally.

We had (although we didnt know it when we got him, long long story) a rottie x gshd he was certainly bred for aggression, so badly bred it was criminal.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Iv'e always been fearful of Rotties probably due to some negative press and seeing people with them that really didn't have a clue how to handle them.

Then when we were looking at getting a rescue dog we both ( especially hubby) really liked this rottie that was up for adoption at Woodgreen Animal Shelter called Holly.

She wasn't right for us as had to be only dog and probably we are not strong owners.

But we couldn't resist keeping going back to her kennel and having a cheeky stroke through the bars.


She was just a darling..........


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Seven Pets, you are basically pointing out the obvious, and I`m sure all good reputable breeders do this anyway.

But you wont beable to stop puppy farmers or back yard breeders to follow this common sense.

But it doesn`t matter, how selective breeders are anyway, I believe that altho dogs with sound parents are more likely to grow up to be sound dogs... you will still get dogs being raised incorrectly (whether intentionally or not) and ending up with some for of aggression when they become adult dogs.

And for the record, you first post really did sound like you was trying to bring out a mass cull on any breed of dog that had aggressive traits, as a breed, not as an individual dog.
I almost hit reply, before reading through the thread, to call you a complete nutter  but decided to read through all posts forst to give you a chance  glad I did, else I would have felt like a right numpty by now lol


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

sailor said:


> Seven Pets, you are basically pointing out the obvious, and I`m sure all good reputable breeders do this anyway.
> 
> But you wont beable to stop puppy farmers or back yard breeders to follow this common sense.
> 
> ...


Me too, lol!!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Through experience I don't like Staffies anywhere near any of our dogs, would like to see the dog aggressiveness bred out of them for sure.

It's not just the Staffs owned by "thugs" by any means either that are a danger either 

A neighbours dear little dog was ripped to bits and killed by one belonging to a "respectable middle aged woman" in a totally unprovoked attack. Does that mean I believe all staffs are capable of this? Capable yes, but not all would ... but I am wary, more wary than before, even with prior bad experiences.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Through experience I don't like Staffies anywhere near any of our dogs, would like to see the dog aggressiveness bred out of them for sure.
> 
> It's not just the Staffs owned by "thugs" by any means either that are a danger either
> 
> A neighbours dear little dog was ripped to bits and killed by one belonging to a "respectable middle aged woman" in a totally unprovoked attack. Does that mean I believe all staffs are capable of this? Capable yes, but not all would ... but I am wary, more wary than before, even with prior bad experiences.


Did you witness this totally unprovoked attack?

Some people say that especially when it gets out of hand but in truth some thing started it, usually the little fella.

The trouble is when a dog like a staffy is pushed and defends itself,damage gets done unlike a JRT for example.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Just seen on the Mal forum another dog killed by a pit mix today  Alaskan Malamute puppy, 4 months old killed instantly by the dog. The dogs owner said she didn't expect anyone to be out so early and when the dog saw the pup it wanted to kill it - and did so! 

The poster knew the pup from her own dogs training classes, the owners doing everything right and this is what happened - as she said, she's not normally an aggressive person but she would have ripped the womans throat out - how dare she not even have a lead with her when she knew her dog was viscious???

The owners have asked for a pic of the pup to be put in the Crosby Herald but it's harrowing to say the least. I'm filling up here, can relate to their anguish so much - poor family, having had it happen to a dog of mine some years ago! 

There you have it - stupid bl**dy owners, the pup would still be alive if that dog was on a lead. Why is it that Staffies and many cross bull types are so often off lead - even in the street, when other dogs aren't?
Could it be that their owners are pretty sure they can come out on top in a fight and don't care? because it seems to be.

The dog has been destroyed, so another aggressive dog off the planet but goodness knows how the pups family feel! 

Hows that for a totally unprovoked attack? Or should we blame the pup for having the cheek to share the same area as this f*cking deadly dog???


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Through experience I don't like Staffies anywhere near any of our dogs, would like to see the dog aggressiveness bred out of them for sure.
> 
> It's not just the Staffs owned by "thugs" by any means either that are a danger either
> 
> A neighbours dear little dog was ripped to bits and killed by one belonging to a "respectable middle aged woman" in a totally unprovoked attack. Does that mean I believe all staffs are capable of this? Capable yes, but not all would ... but I am wary, more wary than before, even with prior bad experiences.


Ok, just a couple of things there, I wouldn't like to see the dog aggressiveness bred out of them, I'd like to see the people breeding dodgy temperaments stop completely, and leave breeding to those who don't use staffies with dodgy temperaments. I'll repeat it, but staffies are not born dog aggressive, but like any breed, need good socialisation, they're not as dog orientated as some other breeds, but they can and do live very well alongside other dogs and animals.

Any dog is capable of attacking another, not just staffies, out of the dogs that have gone for my two off the top of my head, there has been a GSD, patterdale type, and a collie cross from memory, and, bearing in mind I own Labs, you may think they wouldn't react, but actually no, they flattened the offenders, all of whom were known to them and met on regular dog walks, but a certain chain of events led to scuffles erupting. I might add, both of mine have been used to help socialise other dogs, from pups to dogs that have had previous dog aggression issues, they are solid charcters, but any dog will react under certain circumstances.

You've obviously had bad experiences with staffies, and it's not surprising considering the amount of badly bred, socialised and trained members of this breed, but I find it sad that a whole breed is condemned because of bad breeders. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Any dog is a danger, there was a story in the news about a month ago about a dog that was terrorising a neighbourhood, and Royal Mail were refusing to deliver there because of it. Turned out to be a Yorkshire terrier, and the owners were trying to make out that because of it's size, it couldn't possibly terrorise the neighbourhood. I beg to differ, any dog of any size that is badly behaved should be controlled properly, and not allowed to get away with it. But the bad press is given to dogs like Staffies, Akitas, GSD's, Rotties etc, because they are bigger and stronger than something like a Yorkshire terrier, and therefore more capable of inflicting damage before being stopped. So do we just ban all dogs above a certain size and weight that are capable of inflicting a level of damage to other dogs, pets and humans, that'd solve the problem?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I have saved the pic of that pup to e mail to local mp's etc as I think it's about time owners of bull breeds were made to leash their dogs just like the rest of us do. Perhaps if they open their e mails and see a pic like that staring at them they may do something. It's no good doing it after the event and no good waiting until it's a child.
IMO there should be a law that these breeds at least should always be on lead - I don't care how good they are. This kind of dog on dog attack is becomming all too familiar!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I have to say Im cautious about bully breeds and downright scared of Rotties that live locally. But thats coz of the stupid owners that have them!
Met a group of lovely bullies today (3 staffs and a EBT) who were just great. (big grins and waggy tails!!) all playing well off lead and dog savvy enough to respect the boundries of my little ones and not pester them. That to me is what a Staffie should be.
Likewise although I dont like any of the Rotties locally I would still love to have one myself becase of what I know they 'should' be like.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Did you witness this totally unprovoked attack?
> 
> Some people say that especially when it gets out of hand but in truth some thing started it, usually the little fella.
> 
> The trouble is when a dog like a staffy is pushed and defends itself,damage gets done unlike a JRT for example.


The dog killed was a tiny little Yorkshire Terrier bitch, I was not there, but another neighbour was. Yorkie was on leash and Staffy spotted dog standing by owner, ran across road and attacked dog. Ripped it's belly open and tore out an eye ... not nice. The Yorkie did not die immediately, she was rushed to vet, they operated to remove her eye and ruptured bowel( from Staffs teeth.) But died later. Her owner was and still is devatated.

I knew the little Yorkie, she belonged to an elderly lady, and she was the gentlest little girl ever, well socialised and walked happily with other dogs in the park.

I can understand what you suggest, but genuinely this little dog did NOTHING. She didn't get the chance to and could not have defended herself anyway, her muzzle was TINY.
She never stood a chance ...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> The dog killed was a tiny little Yorkshire Terrier bitch, I was not there, but another neighbour was. Yorkie was on leash and Staffy spotted dog standing by owner, ran across road and attacked dog. Ripped it's belly open and tore out an eye ... not nice. The Yorkie did not die immediately, she was rushed to vet, they operated to remove her eye and ruptured bowel( from Staffs teeth.) But died later. Her owner was and still is devatated.
> 
> I knew the little Yorkie, she belonged to an elderly lady, and she was the gentlest little girl ever, well socialised and walked happily with other dogs in the park.
> 
> ...


Always some kind of excuse - till it happens to one of theirs I suppose! Doesn't matter what size the dog is when bull breeds attack they go all out, they don't just fight and rip. Read the story, see the pic and then say this was a "one off" cos it isn't!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I dont think mine would stand a chance if they were attacked by a Staffie, a Lab or even a Cocker Spaniel..


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, just a couple of things there, I wouldn't like to see the dog aggressiveness bred out of them, I'd like to see the people breeding dodgy temperaments stop completely, and leave breeding to those who don't use staffies with dodgy temperaments. I'll repeat it, but staffies are not born dog aggressive, but like any breed, need good socialisation, they're not as dog orientated as some other breeds, but they can and do live very well alongside other dogs and animals.
> 
> Any dog is capable of attacking another, not just staffies, out of the dogs that have gone for my two off the top of my head, there has been a GSD, patterdale type, and a collie cross from memory, and, bearing in mind I own Labs, you may think they wouldn't react, but actually no, they flattened the offenders, all of whom were known to them and met on regular dog walks, but a certain chain of events led to scuffles erupting. I might add, both of mine have been used to help socialise other dogs, from pups to dogs that have had previous dog aggression issues, they are solid charcters, but any dog will react under certain circumstances.
> 
> ...


Excellent post! I find it quite sad that people will condemn an entire breed based on bad experiences/other peoples experiences/the media. You don't have to love them, but when a Staffie is clearly under control & with responsible owners, why would you 'not want it anywhere near' your dogs? :confused1: Ours is probably from a BYB (he's a rescue) and has an impressive temperament, the misbehaving of other dogs is like water off a ducks back to him.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I have saved the pic of that pup to e mail to local mp's etc as I think it's about time owners of bull breeds were made to leash their dogs just like the rest of us do. Perhaps if they open their e mails and see a pic like that staring at them they may do something. It's no good doing it after the event and no good waiting until it's a child.
> IMO there should be a law that these breeds at least should always be on lead - I don't care how good they are. This kind of dog on dog attack is becomming all too familiar!


All bull breeds should be on lead at all times? Or just in areas where they're meant to be?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shibby said:


> Excellent post! I find it quite sad that people will condemn an entire breed based on bad experiences/other peoples experiences/the media. You don't have to love them, but when a Staffie is clearly under control & with responsible owners, why would you 'not want it anywhere near' your dogs? :confused1: Ours is probably from a BYB (he's a rescue) and has an impressive temperament, the misbehaving of other dogs is like water off a ducks back to him.


Nope, do not want them anywhere near as I said, if on leader and under control, fine, otherwise my flesh crawls when I see them approach, too many bad experiences. No problem with them if I am alone, met some lovely people friendly ones, but even some of those the owners admit are not good with strange dogs


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I really find all this anti-staffy/bull breed/guarding breed thing quite sad, any dog is capable of aggression and inflicting damage.

A good friend of mine who is heavily involved with staffie rescue, had an English Bull Terrier, Piggy, who was sadly attacked and injured randomly by two lurcher types. She was getting on a bit, and didn't long survive the attack, and her owner was absolutely distraught. But unfortunately, that sort of story isn't usually reported. I know my brother with his dogs, has had numerous incidents of other dogs picking on his staffies, but if they should retaliate, I'm sure it would be their fault, after all, they are that type of breed. Lily, his current staffie, who is a rescue girl, is such a softie, as the proverbial saying goes, she hasn't a bad bone in her body, but like ANY BREED, they should always be supervised, just in case something unexpected happens, that triggers a situation that could result in harm to dogs, children, pets etc.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Nope, do not want them anywhere near as I said, if on leader and under control, fine, otherwise my flesh crawls when I see them approach, too many bad experiences. No problem with them if I am alone, met some lovely people friendly ones, but even some of those the owners admit are not good with strange dogs


If I see a Staffie off lead, no collar, no owner in sight, I'll think great : But I'll be frustrated with the owner. I couldn't think of shunning a breed of dog because there are so many wicked people out there who have abused them on a mass-scale.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I really find all this anti-staffy/bull breed/guarding breed thing quite sad, any dog is capable of aggression and inflicting damage.


That's true but Staffies are very powerful and many (maybe not all) are unpredictable around strange dogs in my experience and as said they are more likely to carry out a sustained attack on dogs ... as may other breeds with a high prey drive.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Malmum I know with the training and mine are only crosses bears fine but zeb needs constant training reminding he's a bugger lol but only has aggression issues (and only on lead) but with some training he's getting alot better  

It's constant tho and he really hates staffs and sadly I dont know any dog friendly ones that I can get zeb to have a positive time with


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> That's true but Staffies are very powerful and many (maybe not all) are unpredictable around strange dogs in my experience and as said they are more likely to carry out a sustained attack on dogs ... as may other breeds with a high prey drive.


No, honestly, they're not. They are no different to other dog breeds, as I've said a few times on here, not as dog orientated as other breeds, but they are not high prey drive killing machines. They are however the victims of incredibly poor breeding and ownership. That's not the fault of the dog, it's the breeders/owners, for breeding them in the first place, and not doing the correct research before buying and bringing up a pup. That goes for any breed, not just staffies


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Did you witness this totally unprovoked attack?
> 
> Some people say that especially when it gets out of hand but in truth some thing started it, usually the little fella.
> 
> The trouble is when a dog like a staffy is pushed and defends itself,damage gets done unlike a JRT for example.


Even if the little Yorkie barked at the Staffy, that is no excuse for the dog ripping it to pieces, basically. A Staff is "pushed" into defending itself by a toy breed! If these idiot owners cannot control THEIR MURDERING DOGS, they should be on a lead WHATEVER THE BREED!!!!

These kind of discussions really get my goat to be honest. It's always the little ones that get blamed for initiating the attack, or in the case where a friendly puppy goes up to the aggressive dog ".....well, it invaded the other dog's space...." 

I cannot understand the same old points that come up like "any dog is dangerous......" Really, then what would you rather attack you (and I mean everyone out there) one of my little snappers, or a bloody great Staffy with jaws that can kill another dog in minutes!?!

And then the ".....well it's not the dogs fault....." Who gives a flying fart whose fault it is. Fact is, some dogs, again, WHATEVER THE BREED are dangerous so keep them on leads and then they won't go killing/damaging, our little ones.

Seriously, if one of my dogs got killed by some idiot with an offlead dog I wouldn't like to be that person There is no excuse to let ANY dog off-lead unless you can be absolutely SURE that they will not bother or harm any other person, dog or wildlife.

Irresponsible selfish owners; for the sake of letting their dog run free, play with other dogs' lives and that is not fair.....


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, honestly, they're not. They are no different to other dog breeds, as I've said a few times on here, not as dog orientated as other breeds, but they are not high prey drive killing machines. They are however the victims of incredibly poor breeding and ownership. That's not the fault of the dog, it's the breeders/owners, for breeding them in the first place, and not doing the correct research before buying and bringing up a pup. That goes for any breed, not just staffies


Quite - but if you have a "high prey drive killing machine" the very least you can do is have it on a lead, as I do the Mals, it's the responsible thin to do - surely!!.

Staffs and bull breeds on leads yes, at all times just like Malamutes and Husky's (most anyway) nothing wrong with a long line, then at least there's some kind of control. With the three Staffs i've owned they have always been on lead, even in the park unless there were no dogs about - not no dogs near, no dogs about full stop! All good friendly dogs but my thoughts were for the owners of other dogs, not knowing exactly what my dogs were like. My last old Staff was great with puppies, rabbits, cats but still always on lead - the Staff book I owned stated it was in everyone's best interest, so that's what I did, right up until 13 years of age or so when they were gone.

I agree you can't blame the dog, it's the owner behind it but if mine are ever attacked by one i'll be blaming both - as I did when it did happen to one of mine. If i'd been that guy with the Mal pup i'd have wanted the dog dead before i'd left the scene - rightly or wrongly!
Even on lead they can be dangerous and the guide dog that was attacked actually was on lead, only being dropped for a matter of seconds.
I don't want dogs like that anywhere in my near vicinity and I too avoid them at all costs when out with the dogs - on or off lead! I'm fed up with the old "it's defending it self" brigade - the Mal pup wasn't attacking, neither was the guide dog!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Even if the little Yorkie barked at the Staffy, that is no excuse for the dog ripping it to pieces, basically. A Staff is "pushed" into defending itself by a toy breed! If these idiot owners cannot control THEIR MURDERING DOGS, they should be on a lead WHATEVER THE BREED!!!!
> 
> These kind of discussions really get my goat to be honest. It's always the little ones that get blamed for initiating the attack, or in the case where a friendly puppy goes up to the aggressive dog ".....well, it invaded the other dog's space...."
> 
> ...


It's not always the 'little ones' that get blamed and just because a small breed of dog doesn't inflict as much damage as a larger breed, doesn't make them attacking another dog/human a non-event. And people should care who's fault it is! And it usually lies with the feckless, irresponsible owners


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Quite - but if you have a "high prey drive killing machine" the very least you can do is have it on a lead, as I do the Mals, it's the responsible thin to do - surely!!.
> 
> Staffs and bull breeds on leads yes, at all times just like Malamutes and Husky's (most anyway) nothing wrong with a long line, then at least there's some kind of control. With the three Staffs i've owned they have always been on lead, even in the park unless there were no dogs about - not no dogs near, no dogs about full stop! All good friendly dogs but my thoughts were for the owners of other dogs, not knowing exactly what my dogs were like. My last old Staff was great with puppies, rabbits, cats but still always on lead - the Staff book I owned stated it was in everyone's best interest, so that's what I did, right up until 13 years of age or so when they were gone.
> 
> ...


So are we saying it's ok to have a high prey drive killing machine of a dog that can't kill other dogs because of it's size, but not one that can be provoked by other dogs and inflict damage because of it's size?

I've never had a staffie attack my dogs, I've had one try and I would have blinkin' flattened it and the owner, who was covered with tatoo's and the poor staffie bitch had engorged nipples like she'd been bred from. I just don't find this argument convincing, it's not the dogs, it's the breeders and owners, that's what needs stopping. Either that or we all need to own toy breeds that can't inflict the damage that anything larger can.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> The dog killed was a tiny little Yorkshire Terrier bitch, I was not there, but another neighbour was. Yorkie was on leash and Staffy spotted dog standing by owner, ran across road and attacked dog. Ripped it's belly open and tore out an eye ... not nice. The Yorkie did not die immediately, she was rushed to vet, they operated to remove her eye and ruptured bowel( from Staffs teeth.) But died later. Her owner was and still is devatated.
> 
> I knew the little Yorkie, she belonged to an elderly lady, and she was the gentlest little girl ever, well socialised and walked happily with other dogs in the park.
> 
> ...


Where I used to live I regularly met a woman with two yorkies,like you say,tiny little things.

She would always sweep them up off the floor and march of mumbling stuff about staffs,attacked,nearly died etc which I could not really understand as she was gone like a shot.

After a while she would do this but started giving me dirty looks. One day I bumped into her on a blind corner and she had no chance to scoop the tiny ones up in time.

Well she screamed and was making all kinds of fuss. I stood there facepalming and said "whats the problem? mine are doing nothing wrong,you are causing issues here for no reason"

She started crying and admitted she is being OTT and explained that one her dogs was nearly killed by a staffy for no reason and she is scared.

Assured mine were no problem,she put them back on the floor and they instantly went for mine (who just facepalmed themselves) and had the cheek to say.....

"Ahhhhh she is getting better and back to her ol self" :rollseyes:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well, lets put it this way - if any of my dogs, including the little ones are ever attacked I pray to God it's by a jrt or yorkie type - even a rottie as opposed to a staff/mix. Their determination/aggression is beyond belief and that's why they get a bad press. Having d*ckish owners doesn't help them either!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Quite - but if you have a "high prey drive killing machine" the very least you can do is have it on a lead, as I do the Mals, it's the responsible thin to do - surely!!.
> 
> *Staffs and bull breeds on leads yes, at all time*s just like Malamutes and Husky's (most anyway) nothing wrong with a long line, then at least there's some kind of control. With the three Staffs i've owned they have always been on lead, even in the park unless there were no dogs about - not no dogs near, no dogs about full stop! All good friendly dogs but my thoughts were for the owners of other dogs, not knowing exactly what my dogs were like. My last old Staff was great with puppies, rabbits, cats but still always on lead - the Staff book I owned stated it was in everyone's best interest, so that's what I did, right up until 13 years of age or so when they were gone.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I find that completely ridiculous  No way should all well behaved, well trained and well socialised bull breeds be kept on lead! I do know a lot of people who need keeping on leads...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Even if the little Yorkie barked at the Staffy, that is no excuse for the dog ripping it to pieces, basically. A Staff is "pushed" into defending itself by a toy breed! If these idiot owners cannot control THEIR MURDERING DOGS, they should be on a lead WHATEVER THE BREED!!!!
> 
> These kind of discussions really get my goat to be honest. It's always the little ones that get blamed for initiating the attack, or in the case where a friendly puppy goes up to the aggressive dog ".....well, it invaded the other dog's space...."
> 
> ...


I do agree with all owners of dogs that are aggressive regardless of breed keeping them on a lead, but this goes for small breeds too. I have had two incidents in the past week. The first incident was on the beach, lots of dogs playing offlead and milling about...along comes an off lead cocker into the group, Kilo goes to investigate and then started screaming. The cocker had a roll of his skin in his mouth; the cocker let go and Kilo ran back to hide between my knees. The owner of the cocker came over to see if Kilo was OK and told me that his dog was like that sometimes with big dogs....put it on a lead then 

The second incident happened yesterday when I was walking Kilo off lead in some woods. I spied a lab and a small JRT up ahead. The woman put the lead on her lab, so I put Kilo on his. As we walked past them the JRT ran up to Kilo growling and snapping. Kilo just avoided him and the lady said 'ohhh, come on Pip' in an indulgent 'he does this all the time tone'.

I don't care what size or breed your dog is; if it is in anyway aggressive keep it on the lead around other dogs. If my rather large dog hurt a small dog / any size dog I would feel awful even if it wasn't my fault...it seems that SOME (definitely not all) owners of small breeds allow their dog to be aggressive as it is too tiny to inflict real damage...it does not mean that it might not get unlucky one day by trying it on with the wrong dog.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

shibby said:


> Sorry, I find that completely ridiculous  No way should all well behaved, well trained and well socialised bull breeds be kept on lead! I do know a lot of people who need keeping on leads...


My dogs are well behaved; no aggression at all, yet they have to be on a lead for their own protection (idiot owners of larger breeds that don't keep their dogs under control).


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> My dogs are well behaved; no aggression at all, yet they have to be on a lead for their own protection (idiot owners of larger breeds that don't keep their dogs under control).


I really hope that you are not generalising here...at a spot I regularly walk a man walks a few of his toy breed; I always put my pup on a lead as he is bouncy and would jump on the smaller dogs and do the same when we see all tiny dogs as i am well aware that my pup could hurt them. I do however wish he would return the favour and put his on a lead until we pass - I feel that it is somewhat unfair for Kilo to watch these dogs running about playing and coming up to him when he is put on a lead each time. Mutual respect from all sides is what is needed.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> My dogs are well behaved; no aggression at all, yet they have to be on a lead for their own protection (idiot owners of larger breeds that don't keep their dogs under control).


Still, doesn't mean all well-behaved bull breeds should be kept on leads though.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I do agree with all owners of dogs that are aggressive regardless of breed keeping them on a lead, but this goes for small breeds too. I have had two incidents in the past week. The first incident was on the beach, lots of dogs playing offlead and milling about...along comes an off lead cocker into the group, Kilo goes to investigate and then started screaming. The cocker had a roll of his skin in his mouth; the cocker let go and Kilo ran back to hide between my knees. The owner of the cocker came over to see if Kilo was OK and told me that his dog was like that sometimes with big dogs....put it on a lead then
> 
> The second incident happened yesterday when I was walking Kilo off lead in some woods. I spied a lab and a small JRT up ahead. The woman put the lead on her lab, so I put Kilo on his. As we walked past them the JRT ran up to Kilo growling and snapping. Kilo just avoided him and the lady said 'ohhh, come on Pip' in an indulgent 'he does this all the time tone'.
> 
> I don't care what size or breed your dog is; if it is in anyway aggressive keep it on the lead around other dogs. If my rather large dog hurt a small dog / any size dog I would feel awful even if it wasn't my fault...it seems that SOME (definitely not all) owners of small breeds allow their dog to be aggressive as it is too tiny to inflict real damage...it does not mean that it might not get unlucky one day by trying it on with the wrong dog.


I totally agree that WHATEVER THE BREED, as I keep saying here, all dogs that are not predictable (and lets be honest, many are unpredictable) should be kept on leads.

Big difference between a Chihuahua attacking another dog (which is totally unacceptable) and a Staffy, is that the Chihuahua could maybe inflict a nasty bite or two - the Staffy (or larger, powerful breed) could kill the dog and attack it's owner if he tried to help his dog. A Chihuahua, with one swift toe up the backside, from the victims owner, would go flying across the field. A Staffy (or whatever) would likely take exception to getting a boot up the rear and the victims owner would likely end up at A & E needing stitches, or more. It's all about risk assessment and whether people like to admit it or not; it's certainly more risky to the public to let a Staffy off-lead as opposed to a Chihuahua or Yorkshire Terrier Surely, nobody of sane mind can argue with that; though I bet they will


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

If you can control your dog and call it to you, away from other dogs then there is no reason it should be on a lead. If its a yorkie or a mastiff.
There is a certain amount of prejudice here. Talk about a toy breed attacked by a staff and the toy breed owners will demand all bully types are leashed and muzzled and the bully owners will swear the toy breed started it!!
Mine suffer abit from the snappy tag. They will snap at bigger dogs, and Hannah will just freeze meaning I cant call her until the other dog moves away. Point is though that none of them would go up to another dog uninvited and they all come when I call (as long as they arent being blocked). Whats wrong with just keeping disobedient dogs on leads??


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> My dogs are well behaved; no aggression at all, yet they have to be on a lead for their own protection (idiot owners of larger breeds that don't keep their dogs under control).


Agree, mine too. I'd like any dog over 25kgs to be on lead in public area's, regardless of if they are aggressive or not. A bye law round here states that but it's not followed up, particularly by staff owners, for some unknown reason. Small dogs can be very annoying to owners of large dogs - I know that by experience when out with the Mals and for that reason my little ones aren't allowed to mouth off. They can cause a dog to react and be in danger themselves.

I worry that some owners just don't care because they know their dog won't necessarily get hurt - that's what really bother's me in all of this! 

To add: meant to say 25lbs not kgs!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

shibby said:


> Still, doesn't mean all well-behaved bull breeds should be kept on leads though.


Shame! Tell it to the Yorkie owner that watched her beloved pet get ripped to shreds. Perhaps the Staffy that attacked her dog had been regarded as "well-behaved"........

I had a call from a person looking to get a Chihuahua puppy a short while ago. Their well behaved, beloved, well-mannered Staffy had attacked their two year old Chihuahua whilst they were out the garden "playing". They collected the Chihuahua up in five pieces. The Staffy was put to sleep! Two dead dogs in one day:nono: That family had absolutely no idea why the Staffy attacked the Chihuahua; sooooo out of character


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I totally agree that WHATEVER THE BREED, as I keep saying here, all dogs that are not predictable (and lets be honest, many are unpredictable) should be kept on leads.
> 
> Big difference between a Chihuahua attacking another dog (which is totally unacceptable) and a Staffy, is that the Chihuahua could maybe inflict a nasty bite or two - the Staffy (or larger, powerful breed) could kill the dog and attack it's owner if he tried to help his dog. A Chihuahua, with one swift toe up the backside, from the victims owner, would go flying across the field. A Staffy (or whatever) would likely take exception to getting a boot up the rear and the victims owner would likely end up at A & E needing stitches, or more. It's all about risk assessment and whether people like to admit it or not; it's certainly more risky to the public to let a Staffy off-lead as opposed to a Chihuahua or Yorkshire Terrier Surely, nobody of sane mind can argue with that; though I bet they will


I do agree that a staffy could indeed inflict vastly more damage that a chihuahua so if you are looking at potential to inflict damage as a single factor then, yes, staffies are a 'higher risk' breed...but why should either be allowed to try if it has a history of aggression at all? I think my earlier point is that any dog might react to aggression shown towards it by another dog. For example, if a large dog is wandering about, and a toy dog comes up to him biting, snapping, snarling and ignores any avoidance practised by the big dog, then the big dog may react with aggression. Even a quick snap could cause terrible damage to a toy breed. But who is at fault there - in my mind the owner of the toy breed who caused the situation. Who would look like the aggressive dog and be decried as a dangerous dog? The big dog.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I met a lovely Mal today and I am so glad he was on a lead around my lot. Foolish teenaged lump could of crushed one of them with one of his clumsy great paws... 
(friendly with the Chi's......just a little bit too much so!!)


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Shame! Tell it to the Yorkie owner that watched her beloved pet get ripped to shreds. Perhaps the Staffy that attacked her dog had been regarded as "well-behaved"........
> 
> I had a call from a person looking to get a Chihuahua puppy a short while ago. Their well behaved, beloved, well-mannered Staffy had attacked their two year old Chihuahua whilst they were out the garden "playing". They collected the Chihuahua up in five pieces. The Staffy was put to sleep! Two dead dogs in one day:nono: That family had absolutely no idea why the Staffy attacked the Chihuahua; sooooo out of character


*There is no rational argument for keeping all bull breeds on lead at all times. *


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> If you can control your dog and call it to you, away from other dogs then there is no reason it should be on a lead. If its a yorkie or a mastiff.
> There is a certain amount of prejudice here. Talk about a toy breed attacked by a staff and the toy breed owners will demand all bully types are leashed and muzzled and the bully owners will swear the toy breed started it!!
> Mine suffer abit from the snappy tag. They will snap at bigger dogs, and Hannah will just freeze meaning I cant call her until the other dog moves away. Point is though that none of them would go up to another dog uninvited and they all come when I call (as long as they arent being blocked). Whats wrong with just keeping disobedient dogs on leads??


Do you think that every dog that has attacked/killed another are serial attackers? Of course, not!

I would imagine that your average (not all) owner would not let a dog off-lead if it had attacked another dog. Dogs, like kids, are unpredictable. What's the saying "never work with kids or animals." Fact is, a lot of dogs that attack/kill others, it is the first time they have behaved in that way.

I've had it said to me before, when some dog is salivating and snapping at my dogs "ooooooh, sorry, he's never been like that before...." then next week you see the same dog off-lead


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

shibby said:


> *There is no rational argument for keeping all bull breeds on lead at all times. *


Tell it to the Yorkie owner Let's ask her...............


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Do you think that every dog that has attacked/killed another are serial attackers? Of course, not!
> 
> I would imagine that your average (not all) owner would not let a dog off-lead if it had attacked another dog. Dogs, like kids, are unpredictable. What's the saying "never work with kids or animals." Fact is, a lot of dogs that attack/kill others, it is the first time they have behaved in that way.
> 
> I've had it said to me before, when some dog is salivating and snapping at my dogs "ooooooh, sorry, he's never been like that before...." then next week you see the same dog off-lead


Im not sure I understand you. Do you mean that all dogs should be kept on lead the whole time they are out of their houses??
What about people who have no gardens or only small yards. Would be a horrible thing to do to a perfectly friendly dog who lived in this type of enviroment.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I really find all this anti-staffy/bull breed/guarding breed thing quite sad, any dog is capable of aggression and inflicting damage.
> 
> A good friend of mine who is heavily involved with staffie rescue, had an English Bull Terrier, Piggy, who was sadly attacked and injured randomly by two lurcher types. She was getting on a bit, and didn't long survive the attack, and her owner was absolutely distraught. But unfortunately, that sort of story isn't usually reported. I know my brother with his dogs, has had numerous incidents of other dogs picking on his staffies, but if they should retaliate, I'm sure it would be their fault, after all, they are that type of breed. Lily, his current staffie, who is a rescue girl, is such a softie, as the proverbial saying goes, she hasn't a bad bone in her body, but like ANY BREED, they should always be supervised, just in case something unexpected happens, that triggers a situation that could result in harm to dogs, children, pets etc.


I agree totally and share your sadness. I can understand and expect non-dog owners to believe all the hype about staffies etc etc but for some strange reason I expected people on a pet forum to understand that staffies are no different from any other breed in that *any* breed can be dangerous if not trained and socialised properly. I regularly see staffies, rotties, dobes, GSDs, akitas, mals - you name the "aggressive" breed - being handled _and controlled_ by junior handlers, and this would not be able to happen if these breeds were truly aggressive. In fact, in all the years of being involved in junior handling and the YKC, the only injury from a dog I have ever seen - on either a dog or another person - was when one girl was bitten by her own border collie.

I have had many breeds of dogs over the years, including staffie crosses, and without doubt the most ferocious dog we ever had was a toy Manchester Terrier we rescued from a family who were starving him and beating him. ( I was about 11 at the time). He was only a tiny scrap of a thing but we had to be careful if we let him off the lead because he would instantly attack any dog at all - my friend's huge Alsatian cross lived in mortal fear of him.

And despite having had staffie crosses, and despite now having a guarding breed (the bergamasco), I can honestly say the most dangerous dog I have ever owned for potential dog on dog aggression is a male cocker spaniel.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> My dogs are well behaved; no aggression at all, yet they have to be on a lead for their own protection (idiot owners of larger breeds that don't keep their dogs under control).


Unfortunately, too many people equate non-aggressive with no need to keep on a lead. (I appreciate that you have your dogs on a lead by the way). Just because a dog doesn't show aggression it doesn't mean it isn't the problem. Non-aggressive dogs that don't have any manners or social skills very often push fear-aggressive dogs that ARE on a lead over the edge when they insist on 'playing' when the other dog is clearly not wanting to. The other dog then gets the blame.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Tell it to the Yorkie owner Let's ask her...............


Oh please!  Your argument is very one-sided and overly emotive. My dog has been attacked by two Staffies simultaneously, but I don't have a knee-jerk reaction towards things and can see that the statement 'all bull breeds on lead at all times' is sheer crazy talk!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

shibby said:


> *There is no rational argument for keeping all bull breeds on lead at all times. *





Chihuahua Angels said:


> Tell it to the Yorkie owner Let's ask her...............


Just becaue ONE bull breed has killed a dog doesn't mean that ALL bull breeds should suffer. Blame the deed, not the breed.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Just becaue ONE bull breed has killed a dog doesn't mean that ALL bull breeds should suffer. Blame the deed, not the breed.


And on that note, I'm checking out of this thread


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Just becaue ONE bull breed has killed a dog doesn't mean that ALL bull breeds should suffer. Blame the deed, not the breed.


Quick, someone find a story about a Staffie rescuing some orphans or raising a litter of kittens then the breed can be redeemed!!hurrah!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I really hope that you are not generalising here...at a spot I regularly walk a man walks a few of his toy breed; I always put my pup on a lead as he is bouncy and would jump on the smaller dogs and do the same when we see all tiny dogs as i am well aware that my pup could hurt them. I do however wish he would return the favour and put his on a lead until we pass - I feel that it is somewhat unfair for Kilo to watch these dogs running about playing and coming up to him when he is put on a lead each time. Mutual respect from all sides is what is needed.


But are these small dogs showing aggression? Do you or your dog feel threatened by them?

If the small dogs are showing aggression, then DEFINITELY ON LEAD.


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Agree, mine too. I'd like any dog over 25kgs to be on lead in public area's, regardless of if they are aggressive or not. A bye law round here states that but it's not followed up, particularly by staff owners, for some unknown reason.


Surely if only over 25kg's to be on lead in all public areas, staffs dont fall into that category

Size
Desirable height at withers 36-41 cms (14 to 16 ins), these heights being related to the weights. Weight: dogs: 13-17 kgs (28-38 lbs); bitches 11-15.4 kgs


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Im not sure I understand you. Do you mean that all dogs should be kept on lead the whole time they are out of their houses??
> What about people who have no gardens or only small yards. Would be a horrible thing to do to a perfectly friendly dog who lived in this type of enviroment.


Quite.

And until the *LAW* states this should happen,it never will.

_even then some would say b*llox,me included_


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

All dogs are now meant to be on lead in public built up areas, they can only let off in parks etc if local laws allow it now, wasnt that part of the new animal welfare act/DDA addition that came up a short while ago???


My dogs are always on the lead in public built up areas, even when off lead if I see anotehr dog coming I call them over and pop the lead back on until we've passed them. Purely because IF anything kicked off, my breed would get the blame regardless and I dont want my dogs to go through that.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> Unfortunately, too many people equate non-aggressive with no need to keep on a lead. (I appreciate that you have your dogs on a lead by the way). Just because a dog doesn't show aggression it doesn't mean it isn't the problem. Non-aggressive dogs that don't have any manners or social skills very often push fear-aggressive dogs that ARE on a lead over the edge when they insist on 'playing' when the other dog is clearly not wanting to.* The other dog then gets the blame*.


And so it should if it's attacked and seriously hurt the other dog. If an offlead dog gets aggressive when another dog comes to play, then it's an aggressive dog that should be on a lead. No excuses.............


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> :
> 
> These kind of discussions really get my goat to be honest. It's always the little ones that get blamed for initiating the attack, or in the case where a friendly puppy goes up to the aggressive dog* ".....well, it invaded the other dog's space...." *
> 
> ...


Mad, maybe...true, almost always
It was one of those so called 'little ones' that ruined my dog. A woman screaming 'my dog doesn't like other dogs' whilst waving her dogs lead in the air, her sweet iddy biddy jrt hanging off my dogs jugular. I had never had a problem before that and Mia has never exercised off lead since. For her that is as close to cruel as I can get as she needs off lead but I have no choice.
She can't make do with once around my handbag!!!!!!!

All dogs are capable of aggression and that includes your little Chi's. Small dogs are just as capable of causing damage as large dogs whether it is slash and tear from small razor sharp teeth or crush injuries from big powerful jaws any dog can cause fatal damage.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> But are these small dogs showing aggression? Do you or your dog feel threatened by them?
> 
> If the small dogs are showing aggression, then DEFINITELY ON LEAD.


No they are not showing aggression at all...I just wonder why I should be expected to keep my dog on a lead so that others can play free. I always find another area (big space, so no dramas) however do sometimes feel that if my dog is happily wandering about and we were there first that the man should be the one to leave his on a lead and find a new spot. He always releases his then asks that Kilo be put on a lead. I think what I am trying to say is that being the owner of a toy breed (and I appreciate that they are fragile) should not lead to them automatically having priority over everyone else.

I know that you keep yours on lead as you have said (in which case Kilo would automatically be put on his) and am definitely not generalising about owners of all small dogs by the way...as I hope you weren't when you called large breed owners idiots.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Can i call for all labs and boxers to be kept on leads at all times then too please.....because the lab that pretty much had my staffies head in its mouth when it walked over and pinned her growling and snarling this weekend while she screamed and wet herself in fright really didn't seem to care that she was a 'killing machine'. But its ok because hes a lab and he likes to play rough, no hes not mate he's agressive, i had to grab her by her harness and lift her out of the way!!!!
And the boxer that attacked her while her owner stood there saying she's not great with other bitches...well keep her away from my dog!!!!

If we are out walking I always put her on the lead if i see people/dogs coming towards us but that is out of respect from them as i know how staff are percieved but if i couldn't let her off to have a good play with these dogs, then I'm making a problem for me how can i properly socialise her if she never learns how to play?!

I know what its like having a dog agressive dog, my mums JRT is 15 and has been dog agressive most her life.....do you know how annoying it is to see people drag their dog out of the way of my staff while she is wagging her tail wanting to play then they let their dog run over to my mums JRT who is ALWAYS on a lead and act scandalised when she goes straight for their throat. And for those who say small dogs can't do much damage my mums JRT has such strong jaws and her first instinct is to go for the throat and trust me when she gets hold it takes 2 people to prise her jaw open again.....you're telling me she couldn't kill another dog .....i beg to differ!!!! Its not something i'm proud of and would never let that situation arise but she could!!!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Quite.
> 
> And until the *LAW* states this should happen,it never will.
> 
> _*even then some would say b*llox,me included*_


And you'd probably get away with it, because that's the way this Country is. A total pushover................


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Quick, someone find a story about a Staffie rescuing some orphans or raising a litter of kittens then the breed can be redeemed!!hurrah!


Here you go! 

YouTube - staffy dog staffie adopts guinea pig very cute long version

YouTube - Staffy taking care of a cute kitten

YouTube - Staffy and Kitten playing

YouTube - SBT - The 'Real' Story


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> Mad, maybe...true, almost always
> It was one of those so called 'little ones' that ruined my dog. A woman screaming 'my dog doesn't like other dogs' whilst waving her dogs lead in the air, her sweet iddy biddy jrt hanging off my dogs jugular. I had never had a problem before that and Mia has never exercised off lead since. For her that is as close to cruel as I can get as she needs off lead but I have no choice.
> She can't make do with once around my handbag!!!!!!!
> 
> All dogs are capable of aggression and that includes your little Chi's. *Small dogs are just as capable of causing damage as large dogs *whether it is slash and tear from small razor sharp teeth or crush injuries from big powerful jaws any dog can cause fatal damage.


Seriously, I can't even answer that (in bold). You can't really, honestly, hand on heart think that a Chihuahua can do the same damage as a Staffy.............I give up:blink: Think it's time I left this thread because it's not worth putting points across for such ridiculous things to be said.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Seriously, I can't even answer that (in bold). You can't really, honestly, hand on heart think that a Chihuahua can do the same damage as a Staffy.............I give up:blink: Think it's time I left this thread because it's not worth putting points across for such ridiculous things to be said.


As said in my post, a JRT is a small dog.....my mums is dog agressive....her first instict go for the throat and when she gets hold there is no letting go....teeth through the throat and death by suffocation.....yes a JRT can kill a dog and a dog much bigger than them too....


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

shibby said:


> Oh please! * Your argument is very one-sided and overly emotive*. My dog has been attacked by two Staffies simultaneously, but I don't have a knee-jerk reaction towards things and can see that the statement 'all bull breeds on lead at all times' is sheer crazy talk!


The above in bold : you can say that to me, when you've repeated the same sentence over, underlined it too, I believe

I didn't say just Staffs or Bullbreeds, I have been taking about larger breeds that can cause damage/death to other dogs/children.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Seriously, I can't even answer that (in bold). You can't really, honestly, hand on heart think that a Chihuahua can do the same damage as a Staffy.............I give up:blink: Think it's time I left this thread because it's not worth putting points across for such ridiculous things to be said.


Before you leave the thread, please do look at the videos I posted a couple of posts ago. Perhaps then you will see why some people on here get angry when you want to punish ALL staffies because ONE staffie attacked a yorkshire terrier.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Its very "interesting" walking oscar at the moment who has suddenly decided he wants to take on every unknown dog he meets  The situation is definately harder to manage because he is an adorable looking Cocker Spaniel and everyone just automatically assumes he is friendly  was quite a shock for the woman who didn't call in her own cocker spaniel even though i told her he wasn't friendly when he flew at it like a hound from hell


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> The above in bold : you can say that to me, when you've repeated the same sentence over, underlined it too, I believe
> 
> I didn't say just Staffs or Bullbreeds, I have been taking about larger breeds that can cause damage/death to other dogs/children.


i've skimmed the thread tbh but so far of what i've seen you mention staffies alot


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> As said in my post, a JRT is a small dog.....my mums is dog agressive....her first instict go for the throat and when she gets hold there is no letting go....teeth through the throat and death by suffocation.....yes a JRT can kill a dog and a dog much bigger than them too....


I am very aware of JRT's and their tendencies. My Chis have been attacked by a couple before. Difference is, when a JRT attacked my little ones, I knee'd it in the face and it ran off, as it didn't feel like taking a human on. I wonder if a larger, more powerful breed would have run off, or whether my attempt at getting it to leave my dogs would have just aggravated it more and then attacked me.......


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm trying to think of it in 'human terms' now (and yes, I know that dogs are very different!!) However...

A man is walking along, minding his own business, he has a pistol in his pocket but has never used it in his life, he prefers to stay out of trouble. Along comes a little old lady, she is known to hate men and carries a sharpened stick; she regularly antagonises men by jabbing them with it - no real damage but annoying, painful and threatening. This little old lady walks up to the man, he has seen her before frequently so he changes direction and tries to walk away, he doesn't look at or make any contact at all with the lady. She still wants to get at the man with her sharp stick so starts to follow him; he asks her politely to go away but she carries on following him and won't stop threatening and harrassing him verbally. The man asks several more times that she go away whilst still trying to walk in the opposite direction - he is still ignored.

Eventually the man gets fed up, turns to face the lady still waving her stick and hassling him and shouts at her to go away. She seizes her opportunity, darts forward and jabs him hard, it really hurts and the man has had enough of the behaviour day in, day out when all he wanted was a quiet walk. He snaps, pulls out the pistol and shoots the little old lady...when the story hits the press he is branded the callous murderer of a sweet little old lady.

I know the above sounds a bit deranged...and maybe I can blame a glass of wine


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

And another point....those owners of small dogs that are agressive have as much responsability to keep their dogs on a lead as any one else but it is that mentality of it can't do any harm that doesn't help....there is a dog agressive pom near us that is never on the lead because i quote the owner "it can't do any harm" i don't care having your dog growling and snarling bouncing round my dog who is on the lead but won't stand up because she is been growled and snarled at by your little dog and all she wants to do is show her belly and submit.....not fun for the staffy owner!!!! But its ok because it won't do any harm!!


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

This is a very emotive subject and some seem 2 b breedist here, can't believe dog owners don't see that, it's mainly down 2 stupid owners not the dog or breeds in question, why can't u see that, deed not breed, there r some breeds I don't particularly like and have had bad experiences with, but i put it down to irresponsible owners who don't read their dogs, or put them in stupid situations, end of for me as htis thread is going nowhere and will probably end up closed!!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

RockRomantic said:


> i've skimmed the thread tbh but so far of what i've seen you mention staffies alot


You're seeing what you want to see, I've said Staffys. I've also mentioned larger breeds and made the point "WHATEVER THE BREED" on *several* posts.

Should I put a disclaimer as my signature, just to let people know that I don't have some hatred for Staffies


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I am very aware of JRT's and their tendencies. My Chis have been attacked by a couple before. Difference is, when a JRT attacked my little ones, I knee'd it in the face and it ran off, as it didn't feel like taking a human on. I wonder if a larger, more powerful breed would have run off, or whether my attempt at getting it to leave my dogs would have just aggravated it more and then attacked me.......


You were lucky then chances are with my mums she would have bit you then turned back to your dog....like i say she is always on the lead and we know what she is like, but my dad has been bitten before now trying to prise her jaws fromround the throat of some dog that came bounding over even through we shout to the owner shes agressive....their response she small enough for you to pick up....sorry why should we pick our dog up that is on the lead to stop it attacking your dog that you have no control over.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Before you leave the thread, please do look at the videos I posted a couple of posts ago. Perhaps then you will see why some people on here get angry when you want to punish ALL staffies because ONE staffie attacked a yorkshire terrier.


I will have a look thanks. I don't think anyone wants leads on dogs as a punishment, more as a point of safety, nothing more.

As I've said already, I haven't just said about Staffies. I can't keep saying that I said WHATEVER THE BREED on many posts. I've used Staffys as an example but have made the point clear that I do not have a problem with Staffys.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> You were lucky then chances are with my mums she would have bit you then turned back to your dog....like i say she is always on the lead and we know what she is like, but my dad has been bitten before now trying to prise her jaws fromround the throat of some dog that came bounding over even through we shout to the owner shes agressive....their response she small enough for you to pick up....sorry why should we pick our dog up that is on the lead to stop it attacking your dog that you have no control over.


If your dog is on a lead, then you have every right to tell the owner that wants you to pick yours up, to get lost! I am shocked that they have the nerve to ask:blink:

As for the JRT, it was no pussycat, I can tell you but I'm nearly six feet tall and believe me, if it had bitten me, it wouldn't have got another chance at my dogs. My dogs are like my babies and I would do WHATEVER I had to, to keep them safe. Thing is, if it were a large breed, I likely would have a BIG fight on my hands, that I'd most likely lose. A JRT; they are no match for a very tall woman that is protecting her 'babies' - trust me


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I think thats another thing that works against staffies if you breed them to 'breed standard' they are not big dogs....Lexi is about 15" to the shoulder which is about the right size but by far the smallest staffie i've seen about, she's slim not stocky and doesn't have a huge head.

Thing is they can play nice...rough yes but nice...we see a lady with 2 labs a black female that is really nervous that Lexi leaves alone and a gold male who plays as rough as she does. She spends half their time playing on the floor with him on top of her and is always covered in drool when done....she loves to play with spaniels as she is obsessed with their ears and will run around all day, thankfully most people round on our walks know her now so she isn't judged, just when you take her somewhere new.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I'm trying to think of it in 'human terms' now (and yes, I know that dogs are very different!!) However...
> 
> A man is walking along, minding his own business, he has a pistol in his pocket but has never used it in his life, he prefers to stay out of trouble. Along comes a little old lady, she is known to hate men and carries a sharpened stick; she regularly antagonises men by jabbing them with it - no real damage but annoying, painful and threatening. This little old lady walks up to the man, he has seen her before frequently so he changes direction and tries to walk away, he doesn't look at or make any contact at all with the lady. She still wants to get at the man with her sharp stick so starts to follow him; he asks her politely to go away but she carries on following him and won't stop threatening and harrassing him verbally. The man asks several more times that she go away whilst still trying to walk in the opposite direction - he is still ignored.
> 
> ...


I get exactly where you are coming from (but does sound slightly deranged, lol, but amusing, as it was fiction)

When all is said and done, you can't go round murdering people because they bother you. I can understand that you are trying to say that these dogs are tormented day after day by some small breed that has 'pushed' them into it. In all the cases I've heard of large breeds seriously attacking/killing dogs, it has been a one-off incident where the dog has just gone over to the attacking dog to say hello , or the attacker has crossed a road, etc., to get to a dog to attack. Either way, an aggressive dog is nothing more or less than a lethal weapon and you wouldn't carry a gun around without the safety catch on..............if you get my meaning (think I need a glass of wine)


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> I think thats another thing that works against staffies if you breed them to 'breed standard' they are not big dogs....Lexi is about 15" to the shoulder which is about the right size but by far the smallest staffie i've seen about, she's slim not stocky and doesn't have a huge head.
> 
> Thing is they can play nice...rough yes but nice...we see a lady with 2 labs a black female that is really nervous that Lexi leaves alone and a gold male who plays as rough as she does. She spends half their time playing on the floor with him on top of her and is always covered in drool when done....she loves to play with spaniels as she is obsessed with their ears and will run around all day, thankfully most people round on our walks know her now so she isn't judged, just when you take her somewhere new.


I've noticed the size difference in the breed. I've often wondered if they have been crossed with another breed. Several locally have the Staffie heads but have long legs and just look huge. I wondered if there was some Pitbull in there (in some cases) but it's hard to say:confused5:


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Its difficult to know...they aren't supposed to be big dogs and people breed them to look like pitts, if you cross a staff and a lab you can get a 'big staff' looks like a pitt etc. My trainer once told me that there are either 12 or 13 points the law looks at to decide if a dog is a pitt bull type if they have more than 5 they are deemed type....her KC registered standard poodle had 9!!!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I get exactly where you are coming from (but does sound slightly deranged, lol, but amusing, as it was fiction)
> 
> When all is said and done, you can't go round murdering people because they bother you. I can understand that you are trying to say that these dogs are tormented day after day by some small breed that has 'pushed' them into it. In all the cases I've heard of large breeds seriously attacking/killing dogs, it has been a one-off incident where the dog has just gone over to the attacking dog to say hello , or the attacker has crossed a road, etc., to get to a dog to attack. Either way, an aggressive dog is nothing more or less than a lethal weapon and you wouldn't carry a gun around without the safety catch on..............if you get my meaning (think I need a glass of wine)


No..maybe not the same dog day in, day out; I am just wary of my dog developing a problem with small dogs as so many are scooped out of the way and dangled above him or snap and snarl at him. Luckily there are a few border terriers and CKCS at work who he meets regularly (closely controlled) who are friendly. I think we as owners create problems that would never have existed through our own beliefs and fears the small/large breeds thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, mostly due to our feelings about them; as you say you protect your dogs as they are your babies.

Anyway...I now have another glass of wine ; this thread is very emotive for me as I am asked constantly if my dog is aggressive simply due to breed and size.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> And another point....those owners of small dogs that are agressive have as much responsability to keep their dogs on a lead as any one else but it is that mentality of it can't do any harm that doesn't help....there is a dog agressive pom near us that is never on the lead because i quote the owner "it can't do any harm" i don't care having your dog growling and snarling bouncing round my dog who is on the lead but won't stand up because she is been growled and snarled at by your little dog and all she wants to do is show her belly and submit.....not fun for the staffy owner!!!! But its ok because it won't do any harm!!


All aggressive dogs should *never* be let off lead; regardless of size! I would be truly embarrassed if my dog barked aggressively at another dog. That isn't the way I would want them to act. The Pom owner obviously doesn't have control, or a single clue about responsible dog ownership.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I've noticed the size difference in the breed. I've often wondered if they have been crossed with another breed. Several locally have the Staffie heads but have long legs and just look huge. I wondered if there was some Pitbull in there (in some cases) but it's hard to say:confused5:


i have two crosses, one is crossed with a lab the other lord knows!. the one crossed with a lab looks just like a staff but tall. while the other one is a midgit compared to him :laugh:


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Tell it to the Yorkie owner Let's ask her...............


Okay getting bored with reading some of the ridiculous comments, this one included. You CANNOT tar all staffs with the same brush over once incident. All the Chi's I've met have been little ankle biters spoilt brats? Do I judge your dogs on that respect, no I certainly do not. 
And Yes Chi's can kill. They kill other dogs of their size but I have also heard about a Chi killing a beagle by biting it's throat. 
The irresponsible and unethical breeders need to be stopped not the dogs being bred. The staff is a wonderful breed and I'm sure if you took enough time to meet some well bred and well raised dogs you would appreciate this.

To bull breeds being leashed at all times, again ridiculous and pure discrimination. I don't mean to slap a human emotion on it but it is. You wouldn't take all muslims rucksacks and brief cases off them would you? No.

I have met far more many vicious collies, spaniels and labradors than staffs actually.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> No..maybe not the same dog day in, day out; I am just wary of my dog developing a problem with small dogs as so many are scooped out of the way and dangled above him or snap and snarl at him. Luckily there are a few border terriers and CKCS at work who he meets regularly (closely controlled) who are friendly. I think we as owners create problems that would never have existed through our own beliefs and fears the small/large breeds thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, mostly due to our feelings about them; as you say you protect your dogs as they are your babies.
> 
> Anyway...I now have another glass of wine ; this thread is very emotive for me as* I am asked constantly if my dog is aggressive simply due to breed and size*.


I am asked CONSTANTLY "does it bite" - I get sooooo aggravated by that (more the "it" than the question)! Obviously Chihuahuas have the "snapper" reputation! But surely people would say "is it okay to pet your dog" not "does it bite" :smile:

Truth be told, I actually love all dogs, big and small (though Chihuahuas have my heart of course) but I get very upset when I hear stories like the one about the Yorkie and I do wish that something could be done because I hear of these sort of attacks too often. It makes me feel a sense of panic because if one of my dogs got killed in those circumstances, I think I'd go completely mad.

In the US I believe (though this is only what I've read on Forums, so could be wrong) they have to have their dogs on a leash at all times, except in dog parks. They have two apparently, one for large breeds and one for small breeds. I think I like the idea of doggy parks, though I'm not sure because you'd still get the occasional ratbag that was aggressive and I'd likely have a row with the owner


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Okay getting bored with reading some of the ridiculous comments, this one included. You CANNOT tar all staffs with the same brush over once incident. All the Chi's I've met have been little ankle biters spoilt brats? Do I judge your dogs on that respect, no I certainly do not.
> And Yes Chi's can kill. They kill other dogs of their size but I have also heard about a Chi killing a beagle by biting it's throat.
> The irresponsible and unethical breeders need to be stopped not the dogs being bred. The staff is a wonderful breed and I'm sure if you took enough time to meet some well bred and well raised dogs you would appreciate this.
> 
> ...


Spek. Rep coming at ya!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I am asked CONSTANTLY "does it bite" - I get sooooo aggravated by that (more the "it" than the question)! Obviously Chihuahuas have the "snapper" reputation! But surely people would say "is it okay to pet your dog" not "does it bite" :smile:
> 
> Truth be told, I actually love all dogs, big and small (though Chihuahuas have my heart of course) but I get very upset when I hear stories like the one about the Yorkie and I do wish that something could be done because I hear of these sort of attacks too often. It makes me feel a sense of panic because if one of my dogs got killed in those circumstances, I think I'd go completely mad.
> 
> In the US I believe (though this is only what I've read on Forums, so could be wrong) they have to have their dogs on a leash at all times, except in dog parks. They have two apparently, one for large breeds and one for small breeds. I think I like the idea of doggy parks, though I'm not sure because you'd still get the occasional ratbag that was aggressive and I'd likely have a row with the owner


Exactly..there is breed prejudice about no matter what breed, although I do get tired of being told that RRs can have a nasty temperment, so can any dog 

I disregard blatant prejudice (after moaning about it on here of course!!) however you can go too far with your belief in your dog. A RR recently killed a sheep on an area I normally walk my dog. The farmer was understanding and did not shoot the dog but quite rightly wanted payment for the dead sheep...the RR was loose as it had never before shown aggression; i think the owner was simply denying the instinctual urges of the breed on the day she let if off lead around sheep - it may not be aggressive to people or dogs, but instinct is another matter entirely.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

xxsarahpopsxx said:


> Surely if only over 25kg's to be on lead in all public areas, staffs dont fall into that category
> 
> Size
> Desirable height at withers 36-41 cms (14 to 16 ins), these heights being related to the weights. Weight: dogs: 13-17 kgs (28-38 lbs); bitches 11-15.4 kgs


Sorry that was meant to say 25lbs not kgs. In public area's yes on lead and I believe that is a part of the DDA - *under cotrol in a public place*, trouble is there isn't anyone enforcing this law, so no point in having it really. We shouldn't forget also that parks are for children too, so dogs should be on leads when there are children about IMO, as not all kids like dogs and that should be taken into consideration but very often isn't.

With so many dogs being bred indiscriminately there are going to be more aggressive episodes and as Staffys have been so over bred and destroyed by the hundreds each year, there are likely to be more incidents with them than any other dog - just because of the numbers. Terrible situation and add to that the ignorance of some of these owners, the dogs will get bad press and I can only see it getting worse. Such a shame that you feel you can't trust a breed because of the owners behind some of them. My Staffs were lovely, loved everyone and every dog they met - grew up with my kids too and so loyal to them. 

My daughter just said that she'd rather see a Staff running up to her than a Mal - have to agree but Mals are bl**dy b*ggers and no chav will hold on to one for long, not if they want an easy dog anyway. Would hate for it to get to Mals running riot, now that would be scarey but as they don't come back, are stubborn and wouldn't take kindly to some chav boy dishing out abuse, I can't ever see that happening - thankfully!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Okay getting bored with reading some of the ridiculous comments, this one included. You CANNOT tar all staffs with the same brush over once incident.
> 
> I have met far more many vicious collies, spaniels and labradors than staffs actually.


Snap! Mine's always getting attacked-by a lab! And he used to be set on by a springer-horrible ruddy dog, luckily rarely seen these days.



The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Spek. Rep coming at ya!


Innit, blud, snap!



Chihuahua Angels said:


> Another member that just sees what they want to see. What is it about this topic that always brings out ignorance................
> 
> Sorry if you don't like my attitude or view. I don't like yours. It stinks actually, so that makes us even


Speechless.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh and just to add I know of two Chi's that seriously injured a toddler.


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## Darkstitch (Feb 17, 2010)

shibby said:


> a small breed of dog doesn't inflict as much damage as a larger breed


Bit off topic but this isn't always true, my grandad had to go to A and E when a yorkshire terrier ripped his arm open (Although this was back when he was 30/40 so they were probably a proper size back then, not little teacup thingies)


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> edited by mod


For your information, I don't have a problem at all with Staffies. I have several in my family and when we meet up, I say let the dogs meet but they say "Oh, I'm too frightened, just in case something were to happen to your little ones...." They understand the devastation one of their dogs could do to mine and won't chance it. Their dogs are as soft as anything (or I wouldn't go in the same home as them with my kids and dogs) but they are worried that something unpredictable could happen.

I think that's what we call responsible ownership


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> OMG American dog parks :lol:
> 
> I think you will find they are a small area no bigger than a football pitch surrounded by a chain link fence and sand on the floor.
> 
> ...


Who's being breedist now. Shame on you to dare generalise like that, pmsl

As for your comment about Americans. I do hope that doesn't offend any of our US members


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Small breeds can be just as dangerous as large breeds. 
When I worked in the vets we had a cat in that had to be put down because it had nearly no neck left because of a jack Russel terrier. 

I have been chased by 2 yorkshire terriers. My mums friend has two paps and they are always snapping at you if you even go in the house.

Its not just large breeds. My breed stands at 14/15 inches in height and they can kill a cat easily if they wanted. Hell....I am pretty sure they could do some damage to a sheep. 

I am not a fan of "staffs" I however am a fan of staffordshire bull terriers, the difference is staffs are bred by idiots to supply idiots who use them for fights or as status dogs. The staffordshire bull terrier however is a lovely dog in the right hands and is a fantastic family dog.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Well, its sad to see that this discussion has degenerated into breed name calling. It seems that no one is able to make their point without denigrating a breed/type/size of dog...
Surely we are all dog lovers who all want well bred, healthy, friendly dogs and owners who can trained them properly???


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> For your information, I don't have a problem at all with Staffies. I have several in my family and when we meet up, I say let the dogs meet but they say "Oh, I'm too frightened, just in case something were to happen to your little ones...." They understand the devastation one of their dogs could do to mine and won't chance it. Their dogs are as soft as anything (or I wouldn't go in the same home as them with my kids and dogs) but they are worried that something unpredictable could happen.
> 
> I think that's what we call responsible ownership


Little shits was in reference to all dog breeds all dog breeds can have "Sh*ts" within their breed, your reading too much into it me thinks 

Also I don't question my dogs temperament at all I know her character inside out and I know which situations she copes in and which she doesn't, the fact that these owners are unsure of their dogs speaks volumes to me in saying they don't know their dog at all, or have done little to no training. I trust my lab around Chi's cos she doesn't move from my side unless I tell her too. And takes NO notice of any other dog. Certainly would defend herself if a dog attacked her but then that would be the fault of the dog that started it. My dog is bred, raised and trained well and the end result being I know her and she is very reliable.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

STAFFIE'S Are Fantastic Dogs ( I've never met a Nasty one and we work with lots of them ) In fact we have to brace ourselves for the excitable Jumps and kisses we get off all of them

It's the idiot Chaff must look hard *Things* that you find on the end of Staffie's leads that are the problem. Not the dogs fault if they belong to idiots


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Also I don't question my dogs temperament at all I know her character inside out and I know which situations she copes in and which she doesn't,* the fact that these owners are unsure of their dogs speaks volumes to me in saying they don't know their dog at all, *or have done little to no training. I trust my lab around Chi's cos she doesn't move from my side unless I tell her too. And takes NO notice of any other dog. Certainly would defend herself if a dog attacked her but then that would be the fault of the dog that started it. My dog is bred, raised and trained well and the end result being I know her and she is very reliable.


Try not to make a judgment on something you know diddly squat about. Their dogs are lovely but even in play a larger dog can hurt a small one like a Chihuahua. Responsible dog ownership........

And read your post again "Chi's can be little sh*ts " your words, not mine.

There's no point in us communicating because you have this thing (albeit incorrect) that I have a hatred for Staffies and you couldn't be further from the truth.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Anyway any breed can be aggressive I groom a springer Spaniel Regulary the last time I visited the poor thing had been attacked by a Sher pei whos owner lets it out alone ( They live in the country ) Anyway now everytime this Guy takes his Springer out on their regular walk this Sher pei is almost waiting to attak the Guy had a quite word with the owner only to be told to mind his own ******* Buisness and to **** off 

The Springer is old about 14 and lives for his little walks he can't stand up for himself and the owner nearly got bitten himself trying to get the dog off him.

This Springer needed medical treatment and the sher pei's owner don't care at all since this incident yhespringers owner as heard of other Dogs being attack as they are walk down this perticular lane and if told the owner verbally abuses them. 

Another case of The owners fault. 

Anyway the springer now gets walked in the other direction bless....I'm obviously a BIG Lover of Dogs but this sort of thing can't go on. And it's all down to owners.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Anyway any breed can be aggressive I groom a springer Spaniel Regulary the last time I visited the poor thing had been attacked by a Sher pei whos owner lets it out alone ( They live in the country ) Anyway now everytime this Guy takes his Springer out on their regular walk this Sher pei is almost waiting to attak the Guy had a quite word with the owner only to be told to mind his own ******* Buisness and to **** off
> 
> The Springer is old about 14 and lives for his little walks he can't stand up for himself and the owner nearly got bitten himself trying to get the dog off him.
> 
> ...


thats awful


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Like I said, your attitude stinks.
> 
> I'LL SAY IT AGAIN:
> 
> ...


With reference to people not letting their staffs play with your chis...is it because thy think their dog might attack yous? Personally i wouldn't let my staff play with a chi not because she would attack it but she is 15.5kg of solid muscle, she would hurt it with one swipe of her playful paw....I would hope people would realise that the reason my dog can't play with their toy breed isn't because she is unpredictable but its because shes so big in comparrison to them.

She used to play with my mums JRT (the dog agressive one yes, took some time to get her to accept a staff pup but we got there) well i say play the JRT trotted along and lexi ran around her, one day she accidentally ran into her and because she is solid muscle ended up knocking the JRT's shoulder out of joint....no malice no agression pure accident lesson learnt no playing with little dogs too big too solid.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Can i ask a quick question, you say all large breeds should be on a lead but if we are going on the rule of staffie and bigger that means everything from staffies to shelties to springers to beagles to labs, basically the only breeds that would be allowed to be off lead would be the toy breeds and the majority of the terrier group.....that seems a very big generalisation.

A staffies should be no more than 15" to the shoulder and weigh no more than 15.5kg, so the majority of breeds tend to be bigger.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can i ask a quick question, you say all large breeds should be on a lead but if we are going on the rule of staffie and bigger that means everything from staffies to shelties to springers to beagles to labs, basically the only breeds that would be allowed to be off lead would be the toy breeds and the majority of the terrier group.....that seems a very big generalisation.
> 
> A staffies should be no more than 15" to the shoulder and weigh no more than 15.5kg, so the majority of breeds tend to be bigger.


Just pick up on the staffy height thing...breed standard states:



> Size
> Desirable height at withers 36-41 cms (14 to 16 ins), these heights being related to the weights. Weight: dogs: 13-17 kgs (28-38 lbs); bitches 11-15.4 kgs.


The Kennel Club


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> So why should only large breeds be kept on lead and not little ones?


I keep all my dogs on lead unless on the fields (I dont go to parks anymore) and even then only Scorcher gets to go offlead YET I have lost count of how many times a small dog (pug, chi, yorkshire terrier and JRT) has come up to scorcher growling and snarling and their owners are all

"They are only playing" 
*Scorcher wont be playing if she snaps back at your dog*

or "sorry they hate big dogs"...
*get it on lead then*


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I keep all my dogs on lead unless on the fields (I dont go to parks anymore) and even then only Scorcher gets to go offlead YET I have lost count of how many times a small dog (pug, chi, yorkshire terrier and JRT) has come up to scorcher growling and snarling and their owners are all
> 
> "They are only playing"
> *Scorcher wont be playing if she snaps back at your dog*
> ...


Yes I hate this all our dogs go back on lead if we see another as I don't know how the other dog will behave but somehow its more acceptable for little dogs to stay off?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I believe the nature/nurture debate must fall on the nurture side. I have yet to meet a 'nasty' bull breed but have encountered many other breeds that are generally known as 'good with kids' types like labs, springers, that are frankly ill-socialised. I'm glad my lot know the walk on command: it has often kept them out of trouble. 

I'm convinced that some owners are not aware of the need to socialise their dog. I was speaking to a friend today who tells me she is smacking her cocker puppy on the face to stop her from biting (she's teething, give her a toy!) and her son was being bitten because he wasn't hitting the pup hard enough!  These people need educating.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

cinammontoast said:


> I believe the nature/nurture debate must fall on the nurture side. I have yet to meet a 'nasty' bull breed but have encountered many other breeds that are generally known as 'good with kids' types like labs, springers, that are frankly ill-socialised. I'm glad my lot know the walk on command: it has often kept them out of trouble.
> 
> I'm convinced that some owners are not aware of the need to socialise their dog. I was speaking to a friend today who tells me she is smacking her cocker puppy on the face to stop her from biting (she's teething, give her a toy!) and her son was being bitten because he wasn't hitting the pup hard enough!  These people need educating.


 That's awful! I know what you mean about people buying "family recommended" dogs thinking they come ready made and not training or socialising them properly.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Not sure what I think about this. Certainly if Bumble is aggressive to any other dog I try to sort it out and apologise to the owner, whatever size or breed the other dog is.

Even if I didn't think he could hurt the other dog (which he obviously could if the other dog was submissive), I'd still be concerned that the dog he'd snapped at would turn on him. No matter what the breed they don't have the ability to politely say 'back off here a second' so it has to fall to the owner to make the decision for both dogs involved.

If he got snappy with a bigger dog, then I'd be responsible if that dog was then uncomfortable around other small dogs. Whilst I accept he IS noisy, if I think the other dog is uncomfortable with it I move him away.

I'm happy to let him interact with any breed because positive meetings can only benefit both dogs, surely?

My friend, as I've said before, has rescued a staffie who was not far off death row after being used as a fighting dog. After two years he's a changed animal. I trust him around Bumble and whilst I'm still wary, it's not because he's a staffie, it's because he's still traumatised by what he went through - which is exactly how I'd feel if it was another pom

Em
xx


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Eroswoof said:


> Not sure what I think about this. Certainly if Bumble is aggressive to any other dog I try to sort it out and apologise to the owner, whatever size or breed the other dog is.
> 
> Even if I didn't think he could hurt the other dog (which he obviously could if the other dog was submissive), I'd still be concerned that the dog he'd snapped at would turn on him. No matter what the breed they don't have the ability to politely say 'back off here a second' so it has to fall to the owner to make the decision for both dogs involved.
> 
> ...


FAB post and I love Bumble


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

The breeder where we sourced our Keeshond also bred Poms (and shetlands). They were all beautifully socialised and lived in close proximity. Every time we visited before taking our puppy, I never witnessed any issues. Point being, I have since loved poms (there are two round here that I'm planning on stealing!) and I reckon it's almost entirely down to the nurture aspect that inhibits a dog's natural aggression (if it has any in the first place).


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> FAB post and I love Bumble


He loves you too and say's he'll meet you tomorrow at 7 by the Tyne bridge 

Em
xx


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Well this has got wayyy out of hand.

Staffs are great dogs! MIL has a staffy cross, SIL has his litter mate, MIL's one is brilliant, keeps himself to himself, very growly when playing, but thats what it is, PLAY. SIL's can be funny depending on the dog, it has attacked a dog before. 

There are 3 little dogs around here, couldnt tell you the breed because we only see them out at night, because they are that bad! They see ours from up the top of the road (only just in sight) and they FLIP, they go bloody mental, now they might not be able to kill my dogs, but they could easily put some puncture wounds in Kira (not Grey, his fur's too thick)

You have to be vigilant with ANY breed, my 2 are friendly, love other dogs, but when they are at the dog park, I have my eye on them the whole time, I know when the play is getting OTT, I notice when they have a stare off with another dog, and I STEP IN. its not hard to do.

If all owners socialised their dogs, both onlead AND offlead, and watched for the tell tale body language of either dog being uncomfortable, stuff like this wouldnt be a problem. 

And for the record, I have had more problems with snappy minature alligators like chis, jrts etc than I have any medium - large breed dog. Just because they cant do as much harm, doesnt mean any agression is acceptable, just as unacceptable as it would be in a bigger breed IMO


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

cinammontoast said:


> The breeder where we sourced our Keeshond also bred Poms (and shetlands). They were all beautifully socialised and lived in close proximity. Every time we visited before taking our puppy, I never witnessed any issues. Point being, I have since loved poms (there are two round here that I'm planning on stealing!) and I reckon it's almost entirely down to the nurture aspect that inhibits a dog's natural aggression (if it has any in the first place).


They're not an easy breed and can be a nightmare if you don't keep on top of it. Aside from any actual fighting with another dog, if I let him he'd bark 24/7 (he's still been known to bark in his sleep  ) and would go and say hello to every dog he saw. That's not fair on anyone because a lot of the dogs he meets on the beach just want to play with their balls etc.

I don't think it's just about the aggression - it's any trait that the breed has that's going to be detrimental to another dog or itself. And they all have them! No-one wants to hear my dog barking all the time, even if he couldn't physically damage theirs

Em
xx


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Eroswoof said:


> Not sure what I think about this. Certainly if Bumble is aggressive to any other dog I try to sort it out and apologise to the owner, whatever size or breed the other dog is.
> 
> Even if I didn't think he could hurt the other dog (which he obviously could if the other dog was submissive), I'd still be concerned that the dog he'd snapped at would turn on him. No matter what the breed they don't have the ability to politely say 'back off here a second' so it has to fall to the owner to make the decision for both dogs involved.
> 
> ...


Phew...... I can breath again. It was getting a bit tense in here. Thank you for being a voice of reason.
And Bumble is lovely x


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Eroswoof said:


> He loves you too and say's he'll meet you tomorrow at 7 by the Tyne bridge
> 
> Em
> xx


 Cheeky devil!! I'll steal him 



sid&kira said:


> Well this has got wayyy out of hand.
> 
> Staffs are great dogs! MIL has a staffy cross, SIL has his litter mate, MIL's one is brilliant, keeps himself to himself, very growly when playing, but thats what it is, PLAY. SIL's can be funny depending on the dog, it has attacked a dog before.
> 
> ...


Yes I didn't want it to get out of hand but it did, hopefully the thread is back on track now.

As for the post perfectly sums up good dog ownership and my opinion on things! Rep for you!

I think breeding good temperament is key to a good starting foundation but socialisation and training pay the biggest role in all of it.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Eroswoof said:


> He loves you too and say's he'll meet you tomorrow at 7 by the Tyne bridge
> 
> Em
> xx


Make it the Redheugh and I'll be there (Newcastle side, please, by the casino). The breeder where we got the Keeshond was in Whickam, not far from the bridges.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> Phew...... I can breath again. It was getting a bit tense in here. Thank you for being a voice of reason.
> And Bumble is lovely x


Think everyone gets passionate about their dogs  And thank you for the Bumby comment!



Patterdale_lover said:


> Cheeky devil!! I'll steal him





cinammontoast said:


> Make it the Redheugh and I'll be there (Newcastle side, please, by the casino). The breeder where we got the Keeshond was in Whickam, not far from the bridges.


I'm not his pimp :yikes: :yikes: :lol:

Em
xx

PS he say's he'll pm you both when I go to bed


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

cinammontoast said:


> Make it the Redheugh and I'll be there (Newcastle side, please, by the casino). The breeder where we got the Keeshond was in Whickam, not far from the bridges.


Noooo I want bumble :cryin:


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

cinammontoast said:


> Make it the Redheugh and I'll be there (Newcastle side, please, by the casino). The breeder where we got the Keeshond was in Whickam, not far from the bridges.


Oh u from the NE as well then


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

If I understand the intial point of this thread, the OP was suggesting that deliberately breeding dogs for aggressive tendencies was wrong.

With this I wholeheartedly agree - although we may not entirely agree on what constitutes "aggression". For example, I have no problem with breeding high drive dogs, or breeds with guarding tendencies or wariness / alertness around strangers - because these traits do not automatically mean aggression.
Breeding dogs to be aggressive towards people or other dogs, I agree is wrong. Regardless of breed.

There has also been the discussion about aggresive dogs being kept on leads. Again, I agree - aggressive dogs (ie individuals) should be kept on leads, and muzzled if necessary. Not aggressive breeds - because there is no such thing! Any breed of dog can be a friendly, sociable and safe, and any can be aggressive and dangerous.

As far as I'm concerned size and strength shouldn't even come into it - unnecessary aggression towards people / dogs is unacceptable, regardless about how big / small, muscular / soft the dog is. Of course a staffie can do more damage than a chihuahua - but then a soft-as-butter newfie could do considerably more damage than a staff - should we restrict them too? What about a lab? They're bigger than a staff, with a similar if not higher potential to cause damage when they attack.

As for the usual breed bias, I have met one dog aggro rottweiler, and one dog "iffy" staffy. All the others have been great dogs - well behaved, good with people and other dogs, etc.

On the flip side, virtually every person I know who has been bitten by a dog has been bitten by a JRT.
And labradors seem to be a big problem with dog-aggro amongst my social circle - I know a fair few dogs who have been attacked by labs. Far more than have been attacked by staffies, rotties, etc.
The only other two breeds to have "had a go" at Solo were a cocker spaniel and a westie.

Finally, this whole concept of "some staffies are bad so lets lead and muzzle the lot". This blame the breed attitude sucks. There is nothing rational about it, making a whole breed suffer because of the actions of a few individuals - in most cases the direct result of poor breeding / ownership rather than "breed" anyway.

If that idea is reasonable, does the same apply to humans? 
Some of you may remember a couple of weeks ago I was attacked walking home. Supposedly a potential "mugging" though I'm not convinced myself. At the time I was in fear for my life, and as a result have found myself getting scared when home alone, or out and about locally, or driving at night. The individual who attacked me was - how to be pc about this - of a nationality different to my own. I could not identify him as an individual - my lasting memory is of his hand in my face - so this man could be any one of the hundreds of young males of that particular ethnicity in my town. Hell, any woman I pass in the street could be his mother, his sister... I won't deny my initial response was a racist one. Now I am NOT a racist, but the incident made me wary of anyone who looked remotely similar. Understandable in the circumstances? Certainly. Would it justify me demanding they all be arrested for questioning? Locked up? Deported? Tagged? Hell no. Because I know full well that my reaction, while understandable, is unfair and irrational. Not all people of that equation are would be muggers or worse. Not all of them are violent, immoral, dangerous, little scumbags, and I will not blame a whole race of people for the behaviour of the one I met that night.

And nor should the woman whose dog was killed by a staffy.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Yup, Fenham, just up from the West Road. I lost the accent but very much a Geordie.


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## Amber Dawn (Dec 5, 2009)

And for the record, I have had more problems with snappy minature alligators like chis, jrts etc than I have any medium - large breed dog. Just because they cant do as much harm, doesnt mean any agression is acceptable, just as unacceptable as it would be in a bigger breed IMO[/QUOTE]

Many times I've come across people on our walks with small breed puppies on the lead. Of course, I put Dug on the lead too and when they meet they'll have a good sniff of each other. Then, the other owner gets nervous and picks the little dog up (for no reason - Dug is one of the friendliest, waggiest dogs you'll ever meet). As the puppy gets older, they then start snapping at other dogs surely because their owners behaviour taught them to react this way.

I've even seen these dogs go for a larger one and then the owner blame the other dog for defending itself. It seems to me that some people with smaller dogs think they can get away with this type of behaviour just because of the breed they own.

I should clarify that I do not hate small breeds! I love all dogs and am simply making an observation - I'm sure that most owners of small breeds are responsible people. I have also seen many out of control larger breeds!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm afraid that i haven't read the entire thread but this idea interests me.

First let me say that I am a pedigree fan and love the diversity within this species. 

To me the issue is not so much aggresssive behaviour, as this is a complex mix of genetic and environmental factors and not really a breed issue.

To me it is more important that dogs are bred to be easier to socialise. I find that some breeds are still intentionally bred to be shy, difficult to socialise with other dogs, humans etc. as suggested by breed standards.

I know that breed standards are important but wish that they were adapted to suit what a lot of dogs' sole purpose is in modern society, that of companion animal.

It is already soooooooooo difficult to have puppies of even self socialising breeds/types get their puppies exposed to lots of positive experiences let alone those types that are so much more difficult to do so.

I would prefer that the current function of breeds be looked at and from a behavioural point of view characteristics selected on that basis. Of course I know that there are lots and lots and lots of breeds who still do their job really well but there are also many whose breed standards carry descriptions of features more suited to times gone by.

Its not to suggest that I want all dogs to be the same and I do understand that one part of the problem is the people picking the wrong breed/type for them. 

Lots to think about, great topic


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

Amber Dawn said:


> And for the record, I have had more problems with snappy minature alligators like chis, jrts etc than I have any medium - large breed dog. Just because they cant do as much harm, doesnt mean any agression is acceptable, just as unacceptable as it would be in a bigger breed IMO
> 
> Many times I've come across people on our walks with small breed puppies on the lead. Of course, I put Dug on the lead too and when they meet they'll have a good sniff of each other. Then, the other owner gets nervous and picks the little dog up (for no reason - Dug is one of the friendliest, waggiest dogs you'll ever meet). As the puppy gets older, they then start snapping at other dogs surely because their owners behaviour taught them to react this way.
> I've even seen these dogs go for a larger one and then the owner blame the other dog for defending itself. It seems to me that some people with smaller dogs think they can get away with this type of behaviour just because of the breed they own.
> ...


I think it's a worry when people do that. I'd never put Bumby in a situation where I thought he'd be in danger and tend to walk him on a beach where you pretty much know everyone elses dogs. If for what ever reason I thought there might be trouble or just that the other dog didn't want to play etc then I know his recall is good enough for him to come away. I really do appreciate how much people love their dogs and that it's easy enough to panic mind.

I suppose I'm lucky I've not been in that situation actually so I can't really comment *shuts up*

PS I'm fully aware I had a full conversation with myself there :lol: :thumbup:

Em
xx


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

hawksport said:


> If more people with little dogs let them be dogs instead of treating them like babies they might learn a bit of doggy communication and manners and there might not be so many attacked.
> The last Chihuahua I saw attached itself to a womans face because she picked it up when it couldn't stand next to my dog without yapping at him.


Quite right. I was once on the beach with Bumble and he was playing in the sea and getting all messy and a woman looked at me in disgust and said 'dogs like that aren't MEANT to get dirty'

He's still a dog :

Em
xx


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Hi 
Hasnt everyone got passionate since I posted yesterday afternoon? :yikes: 
We have a two year old Mini Smooth Dachshund and she is maybe a few kgs and stands about 6" tall. People certainly have a different perception of her than say the Pharaoh Hound or our Dalmatians. I would say that the Dalmatians are the most lively but certainly have the soundest temperaments, however people are scared of my 34kg Rupert who is as soft as butter. The Pharaoh Hound is quite aloof and is disinterested in strangers human and canine and the Dachshund can be quite aggressive and protective often barking and snarling at strangers. I guess my point is any dog regardless of size can be menacing and in the wrong hands any breed can cause problems for people and other dogs.

*I feel strongly that using parents with sound temperaments for breeding along with training and socialisation are the best way to ensure we all get happy healthy well balanced adult dogs that are a joy to own.*

Maybe as dog owners we should be standing together and celebrate good responsible ownership of ALL dogs. As we all know the non-dog-owning public are restricting our walking and enjoyment of our dogs all the time. Could we try and have some consensus here? Please? I'll beg!!! :aureola:


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

As you say, I think that's because people do tend to think of them as babies. Maybe it's because they think if their child went out like that then it might look bad? I find it all very odd :lol:

Em
xx

In response to hawksports post - sorry dazadal - cross posted you there hen


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Whatever the size of the dog there are too many idiotic owners about and they come in all ages, not just young chavs. Two dogs died today and not because of a young chavvy owner, this was a woman who didn't even carry a lead for her aggressive dog and told the police to take it away and destroy it "because *it's* mad!" still failing to see who the mad one actually was! 

The picture in a newspaper of a 4 month old Malamute puppy torn to bits by a pit bull cross will do nothing for the bully breeds and it's hard to look at that pic and not feel some kind of hatred towards the dog as well as it's owner.

Until owners are made fully responsible for the control of their dogs - and that includes dog on dog attacks, I feel the gen pub will generalise about the breeds concerned. Taking into account the population, the responsible people who go on dog forums are minimal and that leaves a majority, some who don't even own or like dogs, to come to the wrong conclusion.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Just pick up on the staffy height thing...breed standard states:
> 
> The Kennel Club


Sorry, I was trying to do it quickly from memory before i went to bed last night, and knew it was something around that but couldn't remember the specifics, should have probably put around rather than exactly.

Still highlights in comparrision to some other breeds, they are not supposed to be big dogs.


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

tripod said:


> I know that breed standards are important but wish that they were adapted to suit what a lot of dogs' sole purpose is in modern society, that of companion animal.
> 
> I would prefer that the current function of breeds be looked at and from a behavioural point of view characteristics selected on that basis. Of course I know that there are lots and lots and lots of breeds who still do their job really well but there are also many whose breed standards carry descriptions of features *more suited to times gone by*.


I was interested to read this post - I wonder if that's is part of the problem - the world has moved on and changed since I guess the breed standards were originally set, and many dogs now live in urban environments - do the KC do regular revisions of the breed standards to reflect modern life for our dogs? That would certainly help IMO


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

To be fair there aren't many breeds that truly fulfil the purposes they were origionally bred to do.....I think the minority of breeds were bred to be pets....the rest always had a purposes, and how many people put they dog to work to do the job it was designed to do...I'm guessing not many. 
We spent years and years and years breeding dogs fit for purposes and now seem to be putting all our efforts in trying to override the instincts we tried so hard to breed into them in the first place.
I suppose to a certain degree humans make their own problems, we domesticate the wolf, we breed and breed and breed to get a dog fit for purpose and use then because how humans live changes we expect the dog to change with us an di know a lot of it is nature vs nuture but still.

Not sure where i'm going with this.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Petloversdigest said:


> I was interested to read this post - I wonder if that's is part of the problem - the world has moved on and changed since I guess the breed standards were originally set, and many dogs now live in urban environments - do the KC do regular revisions of the breed standards to reflect modern life for our dogs? That would certainly help IMO


As Hawksport has already said, the Kennel Club do not set breed standards. They merely adopt those set by the breed clubs _providing_ they agree with the Kennel Club's code of ethics.

Breed standards are reviewed regularly - but by the breed clubs, not the Kennel Club, and breed clubs are made up of a wide range of dog-owners, including people who show, people who work dogs, and people who have pets. So it is unlikely that the breed standards are out of date, and highly lilely that they reflect a dog's purpose and function in this day and age.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

Personally I think it is only a matter of time before all bull breeds are placed on the dangerous dogs lists.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

hawksport said:


> You'd be suprised how many people still work their dogs. I feel that the show world has already taken too much of the working ability from dogs. I would like to see some sort of system where dogs have to get working titles to get full KC registration.


Any pedigree can and should be able to be registered with the KC - the register is merely a record of breeding and lineage. However, the KC does have a system in place for ensuring that working dogs have to show working ability before being awarded full championship status.

For example, if my border collies win three tickets at champ shows, they can only become Show Champions. To be full Champions, they also have to be Working Champions, or pass the new working trials test. I believe this is also true of gundog breeds, who have to be Field Champions as well as Show Champions before they can be a full Champion (but am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong!  ) In contrast, a pug - to pick one breed randomly out of the blue - will be a full Champion just by winning three tickets at a champ show.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

WeimyLady said:


> Personally I think it is only a matter of time before all bull breeds are placed on the dangerous dogs lists.


That would be a huge huge shame.....because the idiots that own these dogs that give them the bad reputation in the first place with move onto another breed...GSD's Rotties, etc so then they get put on the dangerous dogs list, so they move on again, to labs and spaniels so they get put on the dangerous dogs list, how would you feel if they were talking about putting your breed of choice on a dangerous dogs list because the idiots otu there breed and breed these dogs to become their 'weapons'.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

hawksport said:


> You'd be suprised how many people still work their dogs. I feel that the show world has already taken too much of the working ability from dogs. I would like to see some sort of system where dogs have to get working titles to get full KC registration.


Again...just playing devil's advocat.....I totally agree with this idea as in some breeds the working and show lines seem to almost be two different animals and in my mind they should come back together. It is important that we preserve working breeds as fit for purpose even if that is only by them performing tasks that imitate what they were bred for, if the actual work is no longer performed or required in everyday life. I have never understood how the divergence from working to show type has happened in some breeds. Maybe I am naive but I wouldn't have thought you could say a dog is a prime example of it's breed if it couldn't actually do the job it was originally developed for whether that job was still required or not. The only potential problem in this that I can see is, that by making more stringent rules in order to be KC registered, it could make the issue of byb and puppy farm breeding worse in those breeds if the demand for pups is there but the average numpty on the street isn't prepared to pay the price. This is assuming that a dog that needed to jump through more hoops (so to speak) to be KC registered would be more valuable than a dog that didn't, and therefore their offspring would demand a higher price.
I am pretty sure I am waffling here. But my point is we should make every effort to preserve breeds in all their diversity. If we lose the traits they are bred for we may as well have one generic all round house dog. I have nothing against crosses or mutts but feel that they can only have their place if we preserve the pure breed.
It's the same as not being able to have a raspberry trifle if you don't have the raspberry, the sponge and the custard in the first place :lol:


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I really dont think any more will get added to the DDA - they now a huge backlash would occur, lol!!

As for breed traits and breeds doing what they were originally bred for, many show folk and pet owners with rotties do 'work' their dogs by doing the Schtuzhund work. Lets not get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of that either, but it does prove that rotties at least are still fit for function!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> The only potential problem in this that I can see is, that by making more stringent rules in order to be KC registered, it could make the issue of byb and puppy farm breeding worse in those breeds if the demand for pups is there but the average numpty on the street isn't prepared to pay the price. This is assuming that a dog that needed to jump through more hoops (so to speak) to be KC registered would be more valuable than a dog that didn't, and therefore their offspring would demand a higher price.
> .


Altering KC registration to say a dog couldn't be registered unless it could perform a working function would indeed cause more trouble than it solved. Don't forget, the ONLY purpose of KC registration is a record of breeding and lineage - nothing more, nothing less. At the moment, if you want to buy a pedigree puppy of any breed you can trace back its lineage so that you know exactly what you are getting. To purposely deny registration of a huge number of litters of working dogs until they have proved their working prowess would be in no-one's interest. For example, if you went to look at a litter of border collie pups, if they were not registered how would you know if there was TNS/CEA or anything else for that matter in the lineage iof the border collie pup you were wanting to buy?

And, as I posted above, the KC does have a system in place for working dogs so that they cannot be recognised (and registered) as full champions unless they pass their working trials/field trials as well.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Unfortunately any kind of register that is there to give some kind of information on what to expect from your puppy based on lineage etc is totally negated when a complete idiot gets the pup in their hands. 
I don't think I will live to see the day that dog owners have to prove their competence before being allowed to keep one. 
Now there's an idea, green provisional licence for your first dog, pink full licence when you have proved you can train, socialise and care for the animal. Answer in court if you make mistakes that could put others at risk..........I can dream


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Unfortunately any kind of register that is there to give some kind of information on what to expect from your puppy based on lineage etc is totally negated when a complete idiot gets the pup in their hands.
> I don't think I will live to see the day that dog owners have to prove their competence before being allowed to keep one.
> Now there's an idea, green provisional licence for your first dog, pink full licence when you have proved you can train, socialise and care for the animal. Answer in court if you make mistakes that could put others at risk..........I can dream


I wish there was a recognised equivalent of an 'L' plate that you could put on your dog so that in the early days of training, when your nearly there but there is the odd slip up with recall or whatevre everyone knows that you are doing your best to succeed and so is the dog but they are not yet an adult and might occassionally break a command, but they will not harm anybody, they are just having a naughty moment as they saunter off in the wrong direction!


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Petloversdigest said:


> I wish there was a recognised equivalent of an 'L' plate that you could put on your dog so that in the early days of training, when your nearly there but there is the odd slip up with recall or whatevre everyone knows that you are doing your best to succeed and so is the dog but they are not yet an adult and might occassionally break a command, but they will not harm anybody, they are just having a naughty moment as they saunter off in the wrong direction!


On ebay there is neck ties and collars you can get words on and even coats  i think its a brilliant idea they also have ones that are different colours i think it was green for all round friendly dog, orange for dog aggressive but people friendly and red for dog/people agressive


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

Daynna said:


> On ebay there is neck ties and collars you can get words on and even coats  i think its a brilliant idea they also have ones that are different colours i think it was green for all round friendly dog, orange for dog aggressive but people friendly and red for dog/people agressive


What a great idea - might be able to organise an 'L' plate after all!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Shame! Tell it to the Yorkie owner that watched her beloved pet get ripped to shreds. Perhaps the Staffy that attacked her dog had been regarded as "well-behaved"........
> 
> I had a call from a person looking to get a Chihuahua puppy a short while ago. Their well behaved, beloved, well-mannered Staffy had attacked their two year old Chihuahua whilst they were out the garden "playing". They collected the Chihuahua up in five pieces. The Staffy was put to sleep! Two dead dogs in one day:nono: That family had absolutely no idea why the Staffy attacked the Chihuahua; sooooo out of character


Apparently there had never been another incident and the dog had recently been seen in park before not causing problems, but was new to neighbourhood, what made a male Staffy attack and ultimately kill a tiny Yorkie bitch? Who knows what triggered it that day?

The staff was not owned by what some may consider a "typical" owner, but a middle aged mum, dog was apparently family pet.

This Staffy was not put to sleep, which I think (and many other people did) it should have been. But there you go ...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Seriously, I can't even answer that (in bold). You can't really, honestly, hand on heart think that a Chihuahua can do the same damage as a Staffy.............I give up:blink: Think it's time I left this thread because it's not worth putting points across for such ridiculous things to be said.


I agree with you entirely 

We recently had a case where a Staffy pulled another dog (and savaged it) through a hole in the fence it (Staff) had created, wonder if your Chihuahua could do that


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I agree with you entirely
> 
> We recently had a case where a Staffy pulled another dog (and savaged it) through a hole in the fence it (Staff) had created, wonder if your Chihuahua could do that


Possible damage is relative, but the *intent* can be the same. Being ridiculous does not prove a point.

I assume those that think it is ok when a small dog is badly behaved but not a large one because of the difference in bite size think that it is ok for your child to steal a mars bar from a sweetshop but not to rob a bank.

It's the same thing, a dog being aggressive is a dog being aggressive whatever the damage. Stealing is stealing whatever the amount taken.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> For your information, I don't have a problem at all with Staffies. I have several in my family and when we meet up, I say let the dogs meet but they say "Oh, I'm too frightened, just in case something were to happen to your little ones...." They understand the devastation one of their dogs could do to mine and won't chance it. Their dogs are as soft as anything (or I wouldn't go in the same home as them with my kids and dogs) but they are worried that something unpredictable could happen.
> 
> I think that's what we call responsible ownership


Well said, rep for this


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Right.... keep it on topic please, had a clean up of unnecessary posts.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

hawksport said:


> It's more than OK they actualy laugh when their little ankle biters are yapping at the big bad dogs and tell them how brave they are.


Or the classic.........

yap yap yap snarl.....

No good girl/boy

yap yap yap yap snarl snarl

be GOOD GIRL/BOY

yay yap yap yap yap snarl snarl snarl

good girl/boy


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Amber Dawn said:


> And for the record, I have had more problems with snappy minature alligators like chis, jrts etc than I have any medium - large breed dog. Just because they cant do as much harm, doesnt mean any agression is acceptable, just as unacceptable as it would be in a bigger breed IMO


Many times I've come across people on our walks with small breed puppies on the lead. Of course, I put Dug on the lead too and when they meet they'll have a good sniff of each other. Then, the other owner gets nervous and picks the little dog up (for no reason - Dug is one of the friendliest, waggiest dogs you'll ever meet). As the puppy gets older, they then start snapping at other dogs surely because their owners behaviour taught them to react this way.

I've even seen these dogs go for a larger one and then the owner blame the other dog for defending itself. It seems to me that some people with smaller dogs think they can get away with this type of behaviour just because of the breed they own.


> This hasnt been my experience at all. I never pick mine up, mainly coz I know it wouldnt do again good and might excite another dog more. I tend to crouch down and if worried actually put my hand between their dogs mouth and mine!
> What I have found is a friendly dog will come over to say hello. Mine will politely sniff then try to walk away. The other dog wants to keep saying hello and so mine start to freeze, growl and lift their lips. All clear 'go away' signals that are ignored by the other dog and its owner. It doesnt usually get the message until one of mine snaps at its nose!
> At this point coz the other owner knows their dog is friendly then mine must be the problem, right?? I dont apologise (why should I?) so I must be one of those stupid toy dog owners, right?. If I ask them to move their dog coz mine is scared I must be one of those over nervous toy dog owners, there dog is 'just playing', right??
> Sometimes you just cant win!!
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> Possible damage is relative, but the *intent* can be the same. Being ridiculous does not prove a point.
> 
> I assume those that think it is ok when a small dog is badly behaved but not a large one because of the difference in bite size think that it is ok for your child to steal a mars bar from a sweetshop but not to rob a bank.
> 
> It's the same thing, a dog being aggressive is a dog being aggressive whatever the damage. Stealing is stealing whatever the amount taken.


So are you saying that if a small breed attacks a large breed and causes a bit of damage, that is the same as a large breed being aggressive and killing/ripping apart a small breed? That it's a fair cop?

It's a bit like saying (to use a comparison):

Police Officers should carry guns instead of truncheons, because if they are going to whack a law breaker, they may as well shoot him and be done with it. After all, aggression is aggression.

Difference being, if the person breaking the law is hit by a truncheon, he'll likely fall to the ground, enabling the Police to get the situation under control. If they shoot him, he's likely dead or seriously injured.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I went to a local companion show last summer to support a good cause. 

Mostly local pet folk attended so you should have seen some of the looks I got when I got two of mine out the car, lol!!

They behaved impeccably and I had brought my crates to pop them in so they could relax and not get approached by other dogs all the time. One owner of a little crossbreed had the cheek to call my Magnum a vicious dog that shouldnt be there when his dog cocked his leg on magnums crate and peed all over his head and Magnum had retaliated by barking at it!

Then, what made me really irate, was watching a woman arrive with 6 border terriers pulling on their leads and making no end of racket, barking at everything in sight and lunging out at other dogs all the time. Owner and other people thought it was funny!!

My point is imagine if I had turned up with all 6 of mine and they had been behaving like that???????????????? Something tells me people would have reacted in a slightly different way hmm??

My point is, dogs behaving like that is unacceptable, whatever the size or breed!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think its different TBH. If a child hits an adult it wont be blamed and it probably wont hurt. If an adult hits a child?? It could kill the child..
However we arent talking about dogs of different developmental age but different sizes. Its more akin to an adult (with the mental age of a child) hitting a child. It could kill the child but wouldnt really understand what had happened. It would really on a responsible adult to keep it from doing anything damaging because it does not have the ability to judge for itself.

We need decent owners more then anything..


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> So are you saying that if a small breed attacks a large breed and causes a bit of damage, that is the same as a large breed being aggressive and killing/ripping apart a small breed? That it's a fair cop?
> 
> It's a bit like saying (to use a comparison):
> 
> ...


Errr lets try another more sensible comparison.....

Little skinny boy smacks big boy in the face.

Big boys thinks f*ck this and picks the little skinny runt up and smashes him on the floor and skinny boy gets ankle broken.

Big boy is a hero world wide.

Funny there was a thread on this a few days ago,I semm to remember you biggin up the big lad for what he done


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

If a child is allowed to get away with hitting an adult what is that child going to turn out like as an adult?????

Working in t he Mental health sector, you'd be surprised just how much challenging behaviour stems from childhood!!

I have to stick by my original point, bad behaviour from any dog is unacceptable, why should the little 'uns get away with it and my breed not?? That is discrimination in my eyes!

Many a time I have had a little dog go for mine and owner thinks its funny, I tend to reply 'will you still be laughing if I let mine off the lead to have a go at yours ?' Not that I would, but I sure feel like it sometimes!!!!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> So are you saying that if a small breed attacks a large breed and causes a bit of damage, that is the same as a large breed being aggressive and killing/ripping apart a small breed? That it's a fair cop?
> 
> It's a bit like saying (to use a comparison):
> 
> ...


I don't think thats what Emmastace was saying (correct me if im wrong)

I think she meant sometimes people feel its more acceptable for a smaller breed to display forms of aggression as they believe "they wont do as much damage" Then when a fight occurs and obviously the bigger dog wins, it is somehow the bigger dogs fault.
It is in no way acceptable for any size of dog to be aggressive, small dogs e.g. toys and terriers can deliver a few puncture wounds which may be in vital places or cause infection, either way still a vet bill and heartache for the owner.

In my eyes breeds from the teeny weeny to the gigantic should be well socialised and be able to enjoy offlead time, a good run and good socialisation, obviously with the owner taking responsible care to ensure their dog does not create or get involved in a bad situation.
I can read immediately if any of my dogs dislike a situation and immediately remove them.

Having talked about being aggressive you do get dogs that can be over playful/boistourous and that becomes annoying to other dogs too, causing them to snap.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Aggression is aggression. It shouldn't matter how big the dog is, if the dog has the intent to kill (whether or not its physically capable) then it should be branded the same as another dog with the same intent.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Amethyst Said:



> Apparently there had never been another incident and the dog had recently been seen in park before not causing problems, but was new to neighbourhood, what made a male Staffy attack and ultimately kill a tiny Yorkie bitch? Who knows what triggered it that day?
> 
> The staff was not owned by what some may consider a "typical" owner, but a middle aged mum, dog was apparently family pet.
> 
> *This Staffy was not put to sleep*, which I think (and many other people did) it should have been. But there you go ...


Really, I am surprised by that


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Errr lets try another more sensible comparison.....
> 
> Little skinny boy smacks big boy in the face.
> 
> ...


If you start getting personal, then the thread will get closed for moderation, so I think it's best that you refrain (some people never learn).

I don't like the tone of your posts, not just in this thread, so feel free to direct questions at me but I will not be replying again, so a bit redundant really.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Aggression is aggression. It shouldn't matter how big the dog is, if the dog has the intent to kill (whether or not its physically capable) then it should be branded the same as another dog with the same intent.


Well, I don't want to go down the route of repeating myself, because there's no point.

I really cannot understand your point of view but you have a right to it, as I have a right to mine.

For the record, I believe all dogs should be on a lead (as are mine) in public places, i.e. parks, recreation areas, community fields, etc. Nothing breedist in my opinion. Unlike the posters on this thread that are constantly commenting on "ankle biters" "yappers" and other unfair comments. Yet say anything about large breeds and you are "breedist"


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I have a good example today actually :blink:

Walking Bess and Nelly (Patterdale Terrier and English setter)

Saw two dogs in the distance called them back and on the lead they go. The two dogs that came bounding over where shih tzu's and immediately charged Nelly (who stands about 20 inches at the wither) barking and snarling and Nelly was fearful trying to hide behind me while Bess just stood there. The owners went past and laughed and said "Awhh they have small dog syndrome"  While my dog stood scared they just laughed it off, would have been 100% different if it where the other way around.

My point is it doesn't have to be a specific breed, ALL dogs are capable of being aggressive and causing damage, and this is unacceptable in ALL dogs.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Apparently there had never been another incident and the dog had recently been seen in park before not causing problems, but was new to neighbourhood, what made a male Staffy attack and ultimately kill a tiny Yorkie bitch? *Who knows what triggered it that day?*
> 
> The staff was not owned by what some may consider a "typical" owner, but a middle aged mum, dog was apparently family pet.
> 
> *This Staffy was not put to sleep, which I think (and many other people did) it should have been*. But there you go ...


Why should the Stafford be destroyed if the full facts aren't known? It could have quite easily been the Yorkie starting a fight it couldn't win.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Why should the Stafford be destroyed if the full facts aren't known? It could have quite easily been the Yorkie starting a fight it couldn't win.


I think somebody already said that the Yorkie did nothing and the Staffy actually crossed the road to get at the Yorkie (apologies if I'm wrong but I think that was said, don't have time to check right now).

I suppose we'll never know whether the Yorkie perhaps barked or something but I hardly think that proves that the Staffy is safe on the streets (as clearly the owner didn't take due care) if it can kill another dog because it barked.


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## xxbailliexx (May 17, 2010)

so who's fault is it then when my staffy (who when outside is on lead ALL the time not because she is aggressive but because she has zero recall) is minding her own business and a smaller breed dog off lead runs at her barking and snarling, nipping at my dog, wont let up and is right in her face,owner standing laughing giving it "oh she/he is a big dog in a small body!!" my staffy then snaps back or nips back in defence, my small built staffy at only 12kg then gets called a devil dog should be put down and all the usual crap that gets hurled at you for owning a so called devil dog 

no chance is my dog taking the blame for that or being accused of being aggressive. ALL owners wether they own small, medium or large breeds should have full control of their dogs and if they're dogs make a habit of charging at other dogs then should be kept on lead wether they are chi's or staffies or any other breed


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> If you start getting personal, then the thread will get closed for moderation, so I think it's best that you refrain (some people never learn).
> 
> I don't like the tone of your posts, not just in this thread, so feel free to direct questions at me but I will not be replying again, so a bit redundant really.


:lol:

So its ok for you to bring up a very stupid comparison  you never learn!

Oh BTW thats not a question,its a fact.

As for not liking my tone..............hand~face~bovvered :lol:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Well, I don't want to go down the route of repeating myself, because there's no point.
> 
> I really cannot understand your point of view but you have a right to it, as I have a right to mine.
> 
> For the record, I believe all dogs should be on a lead (as are mine) in public places, i.e. parks, recreation areas, community fields, etc. Nothing breedist in my opinion. Unlike the posters on this thread that are constantly commenting on "ankle biters" "yappers" and other unfair comments. Yet say anything about large breeds and you are "breedist"


Are you seriously suggesting that working breeds with perfect recall and no issues should be kept on a lead at all times, do you have any idea what that would do to a high energy dog ???


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

xxbailliexx said:


> so who's fault is it then when my staffy (who when outside is on lead ALL the time not because she is aggressive but because she has zero recall) is minding her own business and a smaller breed dog off lead runs at her barking and snarling, nipping at my dog, wont let up and is right in her face,owner standing laughing giving it "oh she/he is a big dog in a small body!!" my staffy then snaps back or nips back in defence, my small built staffy at only 12kg then gets called a devil dog should be put down and all the usual crap that gets hurled at you for owning a so called devil dog
> 
> no chance is my dog taking the blame for that or being accused of being aggressive. ALL owners wether they own small, medium or large breeds should have full control of their dogs and if they're dogs make a habit of charging at other dogs then should be kept on lead wether they are chi's or staffies or any other breed


Of course all dogs should be under control at all times. Nobody is arguing with that. Trouble is, they are not.

In the scenario you are talking about, where your dog is on a lead, there is absolutely no way your dog is in the wrong!

TBH I think this thread is going to continue to go round in circles. I had come to the thread today with a "new head" as I was very upset last night, having heard about that poor Yorkie.

However, I see no opinions are going to change here, so pointless wasting time. It's a bit like the CM threads really


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that working breeds with perfect recall and no issues should be kept on a lead at all times, do you have any idea what that would do to a high energy dog ???


I'm not suggesting anything any more, tbh. Take a look at the idiot post above your last post. I cannot continue a discussion with somebody participating that has a similar mental age to one of my kids Have to look and find where the "ignore" option is...............

To end, I will just say that I have already stated that I believe there are certain areas that leads should be on all dogs, i.e., public places like parks, community fields, recreation grounds. Perhaps small dog owners could walk their dogs without fear of them being attacked WHILST ON LEAD.

At the moment, in our area anyway, there are no rules in parks, or anywhere and you can't go to any place with small dogs at a busy time, or you'll have nothing but hassle from off-lead dogs with no recall or manners (that's the dogs and their owners). This can be very frightening for both me and my dogs


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I have three working breeds who are never off lead, never have been in over six years and they are fine - no aggression, no naughtiness when out and loving family pets. Because of Flynns hip problems he hasn't even had the pleasure of a long line but is he hyperactive and restless - No - because there are other ways for me to stimulate him mentally - I have to as I have no choice.

Huskies and Mals are very rarely off lead and they're not all bouncing off the walls you know!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I'm not suggesting anything any more, tbh. Take a look at the idiot post above your last post. I cannot continue a discussion with somebody participating that has a similar mental age as one of my kids Have to look and find where the "ignore" option is...............
> 
> To end, I will just say that I have already stated that I believe there are certain areas that leads should be on all dogs, i.e., public places like parks, community fields, recreation grounds. Perhaps small dog owners could walk their dogs without fear of them being attacked WHILST ON LEAD.
> 
> At the moment, in our area anyway, there are no rules in parks, or anywhere and you can't go to any place with small dogs at a busy time, or you'll have nothing but hassle from off-lead dogs with no recall or manners (that's the dogs and their owners). This can be very frightening for both me and my dogs


I certainly wouldnt argue with your point about badly trained dogs with no manners but surely that isnt breed specific, as i have said my spaniel looks adorable but at the moment he cant be trusted off lead if the parks busy however most dogs NEED off lead time, its not a luxury its essential. Even with Oscars current issue i am still allowing him offlead under certain circumstances and at certain times because he would without question develop further issues without it.

Dogs being allowed freedom in recreational places like parks beaches etc is something IMO dog lovers should unite over to protect, its not for the owners sake at the end of the day its for the dogs. The majority should not suffer because of the minority !!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I have three working breeds who are never off lead, never have been in over six years and they are fine - no aggression, no naughtiness when out and loving family pets. Because of Flynns hip problems he hasn't even had the pleasure of a long line but is he hyperactive and restless - No - because there are other ways for me to stimulate him mentally - I have to as I have no choice.
> 
> Huskies and Mals are very rarely off lead and they're not all bouncing off the walls you know!


Ok but take a spaniel. Different breeds have different needs.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I really cannot understand your point of view but you have a right to it, as I have a right to mine.


My point is: small and large breeds have the ability to be nasty. Neither should be tolerated, and I think we all agree that. 
A large breed has the physical capabilities to kill a smaller breed whereas a smaller breed doesn't, *it doesn't mean it doesn't want to,* so they *are* as bad as each other.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I have three working breeds who are never off lead, never have been in over six years and they are fine - no aggression, no naughtiness when out and loving family pets. Because of Flynns hip problems he hasn't even had the pleasure of a long line but is he hyperactive and restless - No - because there are other ways for me to stimulate him mentally - I have to as I have no choice.
> 
> Huskies and Mals are very rarely off lead and they're not all bouncing off the walls you know!


I understand and appreciate this but if I never let any of mine off the lead they would go crazy, they need to hunt, need to search and run. I understand breeds like Mals and Sibes are hard to train recall but with dogs like gundogs recall is a very basic command and should be taught, then again the amount of owners I see with unruly labs or spaniels is crazy


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

TBH - I can't wait to see T-Bo off lead, he so full of bounce and such an intelligent little boy, he can go out at last this week end as he's twelve weeks, so Rosie is taking him to the dog park round here. I won't be going though because I have this fear of small dogs getting hurt by big ones, probably because my 13 year old yorkie got killed by one and I haven't moved on. But I will go out when she takes him during a day off, there's such a lovely park at the back of the houses just across my road, woods, pond, ducks, farmers field - lovely it is and we know the times of day it's quiet.

She won't let me go when she wants to socialise him, doesn't want any negetive energy spoiling it and I know she's right!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Malmum said:


> TBH - I can't wait to see T-Bo off lead, he so full of bounce and such an intelligent little boy, he can go out at last this week end as he's twelve weeks, so Rosie is taking him to the dog park round here. I won't be going though because I have this fear of small dogs getting hurt by big ones, probably because my 13 year old yorkie got killed by one and I haven't moved on. But I will go out when she takes him during a day off, there's such a lovely park at the back of the houses just across my road, woods, pond, ducks, farmers field - lovely it is and we know the times of day it's quiet.
> 
> She won't let me go when she wants to socialise him, doesn't want any negetive energy spoiling it and I know she's right!


Awh hun you have mentioned before you panic about other dogs, and its understandable if you have had a dog killed, could you not see a dog trainer about it to help build up your confidence again? Be a shame for you to not be able to go on walks with your daughter because of it!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> So are you saying that if a small breed attacks a large breed and causes a bit of damage, that is the same as a large breed being aggressive and killing/ripping apart a small breed? That it's a fair cop?
> 
> It's a bit like saying (to use a comparison):
> 
> ...


If you choose to read that comment that way then it says all there is to say about you.
I repeat.....Being ridiculous does not prove a point!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Awh hun you have mentioned before you panic about other dogs, and its understandable if you have had a dog killed, could you not see a dog trainer about it to help build up your confidence again? Be a shame for you to not be able to go on walks with your daughter because of it!


Am going to as soon as Flynn has recoverd from his next op.  I'm fine with the other dogs but I don't go over parks often and only if there's no one around, Flynn acts so silly sometimes when he see's another dog and i'm scared he'll get attacked because of it - so he's my big problem really.

Perhaps one day i'll grow up, lol!


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## xxbailliexx (May 17, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> To end, I will just say that I have already stated that I believe there are certain areas that leads should be on all dogs, i.e., public places like parks, community fields, recreation grounds. Perhaps small dog owners could walk their dogs without fear of them being attacked WHILST ON LEAD.
> 
> i have to admit i do agree somewhat with you here about all dogs being on lead in certain areas i.e childrens parks and such areas
> 
> although you could also add that people like me with a larger breed on lead would get peace from smaller breeds running up and having a go and owners thinking its funny to see a small dog having a go at a staffy.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Am going to as soon as Flynn has recoverd from his next op.  I'm fine with the other dogs but I don't go over parks often and only if there's no one around, Flynn acts so silly sometimes when he see's another dog and i'm scared he'll get attacked because of it - so he's my big problem really.
> 
> Perhaps one day i'll grow up, lol!


Awh no I know what it is like to be nervous sometimes, my male Chester used to be temperamental with some dogs so I used to get a bit nervous when dogs approached its just something you have to face really and get on with it, easier said then done i know but youll get there!!


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.

People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Holding my breath and waiting...............


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed.


Not only can it be comprehensively denied the claim cannot be plausibly maintained in the first place.

Here's some temperament testing results from ATTS

*ROTTWEILER 83.4% pass rate

STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER 89.6% pass rate

BULL TERRIER 90.4% pass rate*

Now lets compare that to, say,

*BORDER COLLIE 81.1% pass rate

CHOW CHOW 71.4% pass rate

SKYE TERRIER 37.5% pass rate*

Or, even,...

*WEIMARANER 80.5% pass rate*
ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - Home

Oops!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> Not only can it be comprehensively denied the claim cannot be plausibly maintained in the first place.
> 
> Here's some temperament testing results from ATTS
> 
> ...


And just how many dogs were sampled for this "temperament test"? those figures don't mean anything. Quite equally I could find you thousands of articles on children, adults and dogs that have been mauled and killed by Bull types.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


I have been holding back form commenting in this post as I can see how heated it has got but I cannot believe soemone can be so narrow minded! I also dont think you have met very many Staffords / Bull Terrier Types or Rotties! Or if you have I dread to think what the owners wer elike for you to have this opinion.

My Girl is a SBT / Rottie, what about the Labrador who attacked her as a 11 month old, it took 2 men to grab her off my girl? Oh no sorry she's fine as she is a cute cuddly Andrex puppy who wouldnt hurt a fly!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


I can't actually believe what i am reading there..its not even worth answering to be honest


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


Weimy Im suprised at your stance on this.

Was it not you who I said I :001_wub: because of your POV on the "dogs on/off lead" debate.

You seemed very pro "off" lead.

Maybe wrong,I will have to check back.


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## xxbailliexx (May 17, 2010)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


my 7 year old daughter was attacked by a staffy bitch on sunday night, it jumped up and caught her hair dragging her to the ground and proceeded to play tug of war whilst i attempted to get it off and calm my hysterical daughter. 3 times it tried again as i carried my girl home 

this dog is 10 months old, off lead and yes aggressive, yes THIS dog should be muzzled and on lead at all times. the lady who owns this dog has no control over it and it jumps up and snaps at peoples faces. she said she was playing...wtf!!

i reported the dog, nothing done :

do i think all staffies should be on lead at all times....no,why should a dog who has shown no signs of aggression in anyway be muzzled and kept on a lead because of its breed 
when i brought my daughter home the 1st thing she done was go and cuddle our own staffie bitch who is nearly 2 and dotes on both my girls and has never as much as looked at them the wrong way, yes as i said before baillie is on lead all the time because she has zero recall but i wont muzzle her when she has done nothing to warrant being muzzled.

All dogs are different and should be judged as individuals
sorry for the long post


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

WeimyLady said:


> And just how many dogs were sampled for this "temperament test"? those figures don't mean anything. Quite equally I could find you thousands of articles on children, adults and dogs that have been mauled and killed by Bull types.


28,010 as of December 2007 according to the site.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I am so suprised by some people's narrow minded opinions on this. 

Anyway the sun is out shining and I am getting so frustrated / angry reading through this post I am off to chill out. 

I am off for a lovely long walk with my unmuzzled un leashed girl in the countryside. 

WARNING for people in Bedfordshire Millie is going for walkies!!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.





paddyjulie said:


> I can't actually believe what i am reading there..its not even worth answering to be honest


Well actually i am sitting here rather peed off..so i am going to answer you.....

You are of the opinion that my dog should be muzzled at all times....what about when she is attacked by these dogs that you must be of the opinion are a safe breeds believe me it has happened numerous times....the reason why my girl is so bloody nervous of other dogs is because she has been attacked by them..has she once ever retaliated?...no she bloody well hasn't...will she ever? probably not, but she would never have the chance to if she was muzzled would she!!!!


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## Purplejellyfish (Jun 30, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


I have skimmed through this thread and to be honest, I cannot believe the attitude of some people who would probably profess to be dog lovers. Why should a dog be forcibly muzzled and leashed just because of the way it looks. This would deny thousands of dogs the freedom and joy of, well... being a dog. I doubt that it would end attacks either, I imagine there are many other breeds, that don't happen to look a certain way, that are just as capable of causing a lot of damage to other dogs, if they took a mind too!

I took my 2 yr old staffie Alfie for a walk yesterday at our local playing field. There were many other dog walkers there who certainly didn't turn a hair at my beautiful dog running free and enjoying himself. My dog is 100% focussed on me and lives for running after his ball. He is obedient (recently passed his bronze KC good citizen award and is working toward his silver) and is a very gentle natured soul. In fact, during his walk, he was leapt on by a pointer, harrassed by a beagle, chased by a cross breed and had his ball stolen by a spaniel. My dog, just wagged his tail in good humour and did not show the slightest hint of annoyance! Why would you deny my dog what he loves doing best, just because of the way he looks!

My other two staffies, Molly and Cookie are also very good natured and have never caused anyone any bother. Molly is still kept leashed a lot of the time as she is just a young pup and I am still working on training her. She is well socialised and has attended puppy training. She too is working toward her good citizen award.

There are certain dogs, of all breeds, that undeniably should be muzzled in public because of aggression issues. But for someone to condemn whole breeds, I believe is extremely predjudicial, and such a person cannot seriously call themselves a dog lover.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> And just how many dogs were sampled for this "temperament test"? those figures don't mean anything. Quite equally I could find you thousands of articles on children, adults and dogs that have been mauled and killed by Bull types.


The numbers of dogs sampled are detailed in the link I supplied. If you don't know the numbers then you evidently didn't check but have decided the figures are meaningless even though you don't know what they are. Cool.

For your elucidation the number of Rottweilers tested were over five thousand. Do you think that a non-random selection of press articles trumps a bias-free uniform temperament evaluation?


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

WeimyLady said:


> forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times


*From Weimylady own posts*

"Why would you need to put a friendly dog back on lead every time your saw another off lead dog? that to me is paranoia, if you think every dog that is off lead is going to attack your own.

This type of over handling and worrying is EXACTLY the reason many dogs now have so many behavioural issues when it comes to displaying 'normal' behaviour & interacting with their own kind. If you think back 15-20 years ago, attitudes towards dogs actually meeting members of their own species was normal...there was no paranoia or frantic putting back on leads at all. Dogs were far more balanced and I certainly don't remember a single dog with dog aggression.

I'm thankful that for the most part, I live in area where people let dogs be dogs and meet normally, without having a heart attack every time another dog appears off lead in the distance. Where is the fun in treating every walk like an assult course, panicing about what is coming behind the corner!"
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/148089-nasty-woman-13.html#post2224306

"Is it aggressive or is it just nipping/herding, as collies do? I've got to admit that there are a couple of collies owned by different people around here that I avoid due to their nipping/herding behaviour. Other dogs often find collies very intimidating on approach as they often throw the rules of proper doggy ettique out the window...staring locked on, crouched down, stalking towards the other dog.

Mine will normally tell the collie(s) to sod off if they try it on and then they tend to avoid/ignore each other. I'm not too fussed provided there is no damage done.

Now, if this collie is attacking or causing damage to other dogs...that is obviously a different story!"
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat...lead-friendly-dogs-lead-fair.html#post2217848

"Err...letting a puppy off the lead is the best thing to do for teaching recall, seeing as they don't tend to roam far."
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/148089-nasty-woman-9.html#post2215150

"You can walk them where you want. My point it, is your dog has the problem, YOU should be going out of the way to avoid other dogs and not the other way around. You also should expect other dogs to approach and not be shocked and surprised that they do.

As for that last point, that is hardly a 'problem' on the same scale as being aggressive. Dogs are not born with common sense when it comes to reading other dogs, they learn over time."
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/148089-nasty-woman-9.html#post2215127


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


my two should be muzzled and kept onlead when they've never in there life given me cause for concern otherwise?. off lead walk by my side as they do onlead unless i say different and have excellent recall. A idiot had a border collie who ot one of my staffs by his throat and shook him all my Buster did was scream and try and escape it, not once did he retaliate, but its mine that should be muzzled and kept onlead?..yeah, ok.

i cannot believe what i've read.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I have now been through this thread..


PLEASE TRY HARDER TO REFRAIN FROM THE USE OF BAD LANGUAGE, if you are stuck for a word please use the dictionary


Please stay on track.. 

Also my two pence..

It is unacceptable to have an aggressive toy breed just as much as it is to have an aggressive large breed.. We are all responsible for our own dogs.. 

And seriously if I have my dogs on the lead and an owner of a toy breed allows there toy breed to get in my well behaved dogs face snapping.. I would be less than impressed.. But the same would go for any breed that did this to my dog.. I don't not feel that certain breeds need tagging with a muzzle and to be kept on a lead cause all dogs are different..

Also if I approach another walker and there dogs are on leads.. I put mine on their leads.. Out of respect for the other owner.. I don't know how they feel about my dogs.. or about any other dog.. and it isn't for me to make assumptions that they are a nervy owner or they have aggressive dogs or anything of the like...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I used to breed Bullmastiffs. Mine were bombproof. My sister used to breed Weimeraners. Hers were always attacking any dog they laid eyes on. :


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> Not only can it be comprehensively denied the claim cannot be plausibly maintained in the first place.
> 
> Here's some temperament testing results from ATTS
> 
> ...


Are these tests temperaments with regard to people or dogs or both. Because my Mals are great with people but they can be b*ggers with dogs, that's another reason they're always on leads! 

If I were able to set up a poll on here i'd like to know just how many ere intmidated by Staffs/Bull breeds in general. But am too stoopid to be able to do it!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I used to breed Bullmastiffs. Mine were bombproof. My sister used to breed Weimeraners. Hers were always attacking any dog they laid eyes on. :


Funny you should say that.. I have known a couple or Rogue Weims..

But I will add this little story.. and Ive added it before.. i went Pennington flash with 1 weim 1 dobe and my sisters JRT.. Now she went and got hot dogs and I held the dogs.. I have never been so embarrassed everything dog wise that went passed my sis JRT went for it.. I hung on for dear life.. and loads of comments were made .. Like .. 'oooo you wouldn't have expected that.. you would have thought the devil dog would have been the nasty one'

So there you go.. there are rogue dogs in all breeds.. I think that people have got on the band wagon here against staffs.. and I did used to own two staffs.. But they have got on the band wagon.. Cause they are in the papers so much..

Yes they are very strong dogs.. Yes if they attack they could do a lot more damage than a chi.. But it doesn't mean they are all monsters.. and I do worry about the people who see a bigger dog come and they pick their little toy breed uup.. this then makes your dog wonder what it is and maybe stands up for a sniff.. And the toy owner starts screaming .. which then gets your dog more excited and then the toy owner goes telling everyone she has just been attacked by your dog...

And on a personal experience.. Seriously how many toy owners say.. No dont worry my dogs friendly.. then they get there and meet your dog and they are quite the opposite.. Im really really lucky.. And I know this from experience..

If my eldest weim Maizie was stuck in a space with no get out and she was attacked.. she would retaliate.. in self defence.. if a dog attacked her and she could get away.. she will get out of the way quick..

I think the way people bring there dogs up.. Has a lot to be answered for how they behave when out in public!


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## MissBexi (Dec 27, 2009)

*I am really surprised by some of the posts in this thread. I know of a lady in my town how has a collie dog who is very excitable and nips therefore she sensible puts a muzzle on the dog when out walking as she's worried the dog will bite. 
To make certain breeds wear muzzles I think is slightly ott.. I went to the supermarket the other day and a lady went in and her gorgeous little staffy stay outside waiting for her, not even tied up on a lead. Now everyone stopped and spoke to this gorgeous little girl, even a mum and her daughter (probably about 6yrs old), now in my opinion, had this dog been made to wear a muzzle people would not of reacting in the same way. I myself would of been anxious as I see muzzles as usually being associated with biting. I've met plently of Staffies, Bull Terriers etc and they have fantastic temperments. How many more restrictions do people won't to put on these so called "dangerous breeds"?!?
Just something else that I remember, that if I ever went to New York, I would not be able to take my Bedlingtons as because they a "killing breed" they are banned from living in rental homes  lol*


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I am so suprised by some people's narrow minded opinions on this.
> 
> Anyway the sun is out shining and I am getting so frustrated / angry reading through this post I am off to chill out.
> 
> ...


Quick update  Lovely long walk with no muzzle and 90% of the time off lead.

My neighbours were not all hiding inside away from my killer Rottie / SBT and we met a lovely 18 month old Rottie - She was so gorgeous my OH wanted to steal her hehe. Then Millie managed to avoi her inbuilt aggressive tendancies somepeople on here think she obviously must have because of her breeds and also played with a Springer Spaniel and then we met a Whippet.

Growls - None
Snaps - None
Other Dogs attack - None
People being nervous because Millie was off lead - TBH honest I dont care because she was under control the whole time.

Anyone who thinks that any breed of dog needs to be muzzled purly for abeing that breed really needs to get out more and meet some of these breeds!

Good Luck to all those tonight who also share there house with such viscious beasts  Maybe we should keep the suggested muzzles on in the house to just to be safe?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well my old jrt, Chip never growled or attacked anything in her life, she was brilliant with chidren used to get pushed around in a pram by them, loved all the dogs over the park, friendly to everyone she met - a right little gem. Her mate and lifelong companion was Floyd, a stocky red STB - he was just the same as her, they'd even share the same bone one end each. When she went he went downhill fast and within 6 months he had to be pts. 

So two breeds in this thread that keep comming up as aggressive but my two weren't, I think we all have to remember that if the owner is an idiot the dog's bound to be lacking in something too and if the owner is aggressive, has probably not passed on the best temperamnet either with it's upbringing.
The trouble is there are far too many owners about who just don't care and you won't find that kind of person on a dog forum - not in a million years!


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## MissBexi (Dec 27, 2009)

*I think I need muzzles for my two.. They have just ironically proved that they can be aggressive if need be... 
Suki went to take Bailey's chew and it caused World War 3. Thankfully no-one was hurt and a harsh talking to sorted it all out, they are now happily curled up kissing lol.
Does this mean we should be adding Bedlington Terrier's to this list of muzzlen requires dogs?! They are bred to kill after all *


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Well my old jrt, Chip never growled or attacked anything in her life, she was brilliant with chidren used to get pushed around in a pram by them, loved all the dogs over the park, friendly to everyone she met - a right little gem. Her mate and lifelong companion was Floyd, a stocky red STB - he was just the same as her, they'd even share the same bone one end each. When she went he went downhill fast and within 6 months he had to be pts.
> 
> *So two breeds in this thread that keep comming up as aggressive but my two weren't, I think we all have to remember that if the owner is an idiot the dog's bound to be lacking in something too and if the owner is aggressive, *has probably not passed on the best temperamnet either with it's upbringing.
> The trouble is there are far too many owners about who just don't care and you won't find that kind of person on a dog forum - not in a million years!


Exactly.. Everyone's are different.. they are dogs with their own personalities.. Not clones of each other.. 

So each dog has to be assessed individually..

For crying out loud.. dogs don't go into rescue and cause they are a staff.. the rescue say.. Right I heard of a kid being nipped last week so all the staffs will have to be PTS..  No all dogs would be assessed individually regardless of breed..

Just as in life.. We all asses a situ as and when its needed..

There is no blanket rule.. And thank goodness..


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Quick update  Lovely long walk with no muzzle and 90% of the time off lead.
> 
> My neighbours were not all hiding inside away from my killer Rottie / SBT and we met a lovely 18 month old Rottie - She was so gorgeous my OH wanted to steal her hehe. Then Millie managed to avoi her inbuilt aggressive tendancies somepeople on here think she obviously must have because of her breeds and also played with a Springer Spaniel and then we met a Whippet.
> 
> ...


Hi Millie  Glad you had a lovely walk. Big Brian from over the road just came to 'call' for Bumble along with his 'brother' Mini Brian (former a Rottie, latter a staffie). Both come to call for Bumble most days  They're the softest, loveliest dogs and I'm happy to let them play with Bumby (who often sits on Big brians back :lol: )

He also had a lovely walk on the beach playing with the teeeeeniest puppy I've ever seen :lol: along with a Labrador and a GSD.

For a change, there was one dog that was slightly aggressive and Bumble was nervous - so I called him and he came back and everyone got on with their walk. I genuinely can't remember his breed 

Em
xx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think it's people myself. People have changed so much and with my three daughters and myself working in a hospital, especially A&E we encounter vile people many many times. They're not drunk or on drugs all the time either, it's just the way they are. Couple this with owning a dog and you're bound to see a change in dogs temperaments too. To see the way some parents act when out in public with their kids, you can see how people have changed. 

I may work with them, I may care for them but give me dogs over people any day! Please don't always blame the dogs because ultimately it's the people who own them that are causing the problems.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I like it when all the nice people come out to play on here


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I think it's people myself. People have changed so much and with my three daughters and myself working in a hospital, especially A&E we encounter vile people many many times. They're not drunk or on drugs all the time either, it's just the way they are. Couple this with owning a dog and you're bound to see a change in dogs temperaments too. To see the way some parents act when out in public with their kids, you can see how people have changed.
> 
> I may work with them, I may care for them but give me dogs over people any day! *Please don't always blame the dogs because ultimately it's the people who own them that are causing the problems.*


But still, 'staffs and bull breeds on lead at all times'? Even those who belong to responsible owners? Wouldn't that be blaming/discriminating against dogs (and owners) who have done no wrong? :confused5:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed.


   

Yes I can deny it - they have no more tendency to aggression than any other breed



WeimyLady said:


> And just how many dogs were sampled for this "temperament test"? those figures don't mean anything. Quite equally I could find you thousands of articles on children, adults and dogs that have been mauled and killed by Bull types.


Yes, it's always much more fun to believe all the hype and lies you read whilst you ignore the true facts.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's this kind of ignorance about the true facts, this kind of mindless acceptance of everything the tabloids write as gospel, that has led to countless harmless, loving, bull-type dogs being torn from their families and put to sleep for no reason at all.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

shibby said:


> But still, 'staffs and bull breeds on lead at all times'? Even those who belong to responsible owners? Wouldn't that be blaming dogs (and owners) who have done no wrong? :confused5:


Hasn't the poster you quoted explained why she had mentioned this. and it is due to a personal experience.. We have to respect that.. As we cannot turn the clock back for the poster..


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Hasn't the poster you quoted explained why she had mentioned this. and it is due to a personal experience.. We have to respect that.. As we cannot turn the clock back for the poster..


I merely asked as I checked out of this thread and was wondering if there was a reversal of opinions! I was not undermining any unfortunate personal experiences! Just a question...

Edit- Deed not breed is the only opinion I respect on this matter.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Why should the Stafford be destroyed if the full facts aren't known? It could have quite easily been the Yorkie starting a fight it couldn't win.


The full facts are known, a male Staffy ran across a road and attacked, a tiny 5lb Yorkie bitch, standing quietly by her owner, as she chatted to a neighbour.

Yorkie was rushed to the vets, survived surgery, the eye which Staffy had ripped out and left hanging, was removed and abdominal surgery performed, but sadly, after going through all that, she died a day or day or two later.
The Staffy had bitten into her bowel duing attack, if it had "only" taken her eye out, she may have survived, but her abdomen was badly bitten and bowel punctured.

Those are the "full facts" 

ANY dog that can carry out such a determined, sustained and lethal attack should not be on the streets.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Last year my German Shepherd was attacked by a dog aggressive labrador, this means all labradors must be dangerous, therefore all labradors should be on leads and muzzled at all times!!!!!

That was sarcasm by the way, for those who need clarification


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> The full facts are known, a male Staffy ran across a road and attacked, a tiny 5lb Yorkie bitch, standing quietly by her owner, as she chatted to a neighbour.
> 
> Yorkie was rushed to the vets, survived surgery, the eye which Staffy had ripped out and left hanging, was removed and abdominal surgery performed, but sadly, after going through all that, she died a day or day or two later.
> The Staffy had bitten into her bowel duing attack, if it had "only" taken her eye out, she may have survived, but her abdomen was badly bitten and bowel punctured.
> ...


And the first question I would ask... Where was the owner of the staff.. the person responsible for this dog??


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Emmastace wrote


> I like it when all the nice people come out to play on here


Me too!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> And the first question I would ask... Where was the owner of the staff.. the person responsible for this dog??


On the other side of road to lady standing with Yorkie.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


I'll say it again, why should i muzzle my staffie the staffie that got attacked this weekend by a Lab, the staffie that when she got attacked cowered and wet herself the staffie who had to have the lab prised off her as she wouldn't retaliate....why should i muzzle my staff when she loves to play with other dogs, who when she was playing with her ball got bounced all over by a spaniel did she get agressive nope she gave the spaniel her ball and came and sat by her mum because she knows her mum will get her ball back, why should i muzzle my staff that plays nice with dogs of all sizes, that loves to run and swim and play on her walks....
I may be wrong but i believe the statistics show that most dog bites in the home come from collies, or something similar...should we be calling for all them to be muzzled in the home? No i don't think so.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I would like to guess that 99% of aggressive staffie owners ought to be the ones that are muzzled and on a lead.

I would hate to think of the staffies my dogs run around with most days would be subjected to been on a lead and muzzled, its charlie (cocker) that gets all stroppy if they beat him to the ball more than twice only barks but nonetheless much more stroppy than the staffies.

One of their best buddies is a staffy cross, definetly some rottie in there somewhere down the line, the most lovely natured dog i have met.

The majority of people i have heard say they dont like staffies or they cant trust a staffy have never had a bad experience, that tells me its only on hearsay, bad press again.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

My cat was killed by 2 staffies BUT given the choice my cocker has the potential to do the same (he hates cats). Do i blame the breed NO i blame the moron owners who let their 2 dog run loose and pack hunt my poor old cat  Can i have the owners muzzled for their stupidity please !!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> ANY dog that can carry out such a determined, sustained and lethal attack should not be on the streets.


So, the majority of dog breeds then?

Most dogs are powerful animals. They are _capable_ of causing great harm. This does not mean that they will.

Simply put, of course _individual_ dogs with aggressive traits need to be kept on a leash and muzzled. However, to suggest a whole breed does is truly astonishing.

Can you imagine if something comparable was being said about human beings of different ethnic backgrounds! :blink:

Some of the comments on this thread have deeply shocked me. Not to mention the rudeness (thank you mods for clearing it up).

Last summer my elderly cat was brutally attacked and killed by a dog. It was completely unprovoked. Do I blame the dog? No. Do I blame the owner? Yes. The dog wasn't a staffy or similar. It was just an aggressive dog, known in the village to attack, who should have been muzzled and leashed.

Clearly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It is just a shame that some peoples opinions would result in the unfair treatment of an entire breed, simply because of the stigma associated with it.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

I worked in A&E as a Charge Nurse for many years as does my partner and the breed of dog that bit the most and often did lots of damage to children was the Labrador Retriever. Before I get shot down in flames I love Labs they make great family pets and obviously are numerically probably the most common family dog. We never had our local paper or national press report these regular bites though. 
We had a Dalmatian in Welfare in the care of one of our Fosterers that bit a visitors nose off. The dog was PTS and we paid several thousands of pounds in medical Bills to the unfortunate woman.
My point is that ALL dogs can do damage regardless of the breed. Responsible ownership is what is needed if your dog is aggressive on or off the lead YOU as the owner need to take measures to prevent anyone or any other dog coming to harm. Its not only a legal but surely it is our moral obligation as dog owners.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> The majority of people i have heard say they dont like staffies or they cant trust a staffy have never had a bad experience, that tells me its only on hearsay, bad press again.


I know a LOT of people personally who have had negative experience with Staffies (around their own dogs). I have also had personal experience.

I don't mind Staffies if I am alone, just don't trust them around dogs they don't know. I know a few dogs aroun dhere, lovely with people, but even their own owners will say they are not good with other dogs. These are not abused dogs, one I know well has been to puppy socialisation and training, but still "iffy" with dogs ...

Thankfully owners of THESE dogs keep them under control


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> So, the majority of dog breeds then?


I was referring to the Staffy that killed the tiny Yorkie, that I have spoken of ...


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> On the other side of road to lady standing with Yorkie.


So obviously they were not being responsible with the dog.. So I understand it was the dog that attacked.. But aren't we as owners of dogs meant to be in control and prevent such horrid things happening.. I would be devastated if one of my dogs did this... And extremely annoyed with myself.. but does it mean the dog should loose its life..

Or should the owner be looked at more closely as to whether they are fit to own a dog?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I know staffs can cause a lot of damage but so can most big breeds, a gsd, a lab anything sizeable with a bit of weight behind it can cause damage but it seems that the staffs are the breed that get picked on....I've read a couple of articles on dog attacks one was a lab and a staff attack one was a JRT and Staff attack and one was a GSD and staff attack in all three news articles it stated that the staffie instigated the attack and the other breeds just followed their lead....but how can anyone really know that...infact on of the stories was about an attack on a cat and it stated the owner looked out the window to see two dogs attacking her cat....but went on to say the staffie started it....how do the know that? Guess work and story selling....labrador attacks family cat doesn't have the same ring to it as devil dog staffordhire bull terrier mauls beloved family pet......


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

You know.. A chi could nip you in the wrong place and you could be dead.. Im sure we all know this.. 
A cat scratched a lady years ago.. It was in all the papers.. She died.. 

The reason people fear staffs is because of the way they are built.. strong small dogs close to the ground so they have great balance.. Wide jaws with muscular heads.. 
And lots and lots of media attention..


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Would you be intimidated by the skinny bloke approaching you..

or the stout muscular one??


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> So obviously they were not being responsible with the dog.. So I understand it was the dog that attacked.. But aren't we as owners of dogs meant to be in control and prevent such horrid things happening.. I would be devastated if one of my dogs did this... And extremely annoyed with myself.. but does mean the dog should loose its life..
> 
> Or should the owner be looked at more closely as to whether they are fit to own a dog?


Absoloutley, and any dog capable and actually carrying out such a horrific attack removed from them. And in my opinion destroyed, what else could you do with such a dog? Who would want to re-home an animal like this?
The alternative? kennel it in rescue for life? Where?

I think few would disagree that the owner of this Staff was not responsible enough to own it? So what should have happened to it? What rescue would take a dog in like this that had killed another dog in an unprovoked attack?

Staffies with an unblemished rescord are being turned away by rescues as nobody wants them and they "kennel block" ... I doubt they would be queueing to take in one that has killed (another dog)?

What are the alternatives, tell the owner of staffy they have been very norty and not to let their dog kill again? Ask them to promise they will never let it of leash again ...


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Absoloutley, and any dog capable and actually carrying out such a horrific attack removed from them. And in my opinion destroyed, what else could you do with such a dog? Who would want to re-home an animal like this?
> The alternative? kennel it in rescue for life? Where?
> 
> I think few would disagree that the owner of this Staff was not responsible enough to own it? So what should have happened to it? What rescue would take a dog in like this that had killed another dog in an unprovoked attack?
> ...


I have been here.. Or rather had a dog in my possession that was like this..

And it did come from a rescue.. There are people out there who have the ability to cater for such a dog.. 
Im not saying they should.. But been in a position where you have a much loved family dog that has a hate for small furries.. It is heartbreaking.. 

A lot of probs is people who have dogs like these that pass them on.. they don't tell the truth of he dog..  so sad but so true.. 

If you know al the details of a dog.. It is so much easier to be on your guard to prevent such situations from happening..


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Well, this has been one epic read. :blink:

I think we're all agreed that in Seven Pets original post (which we all had to read a couple of times to get the correct jist of)  ANY breed of dog should in a perfect world only be bred with good temperments, however, we don't live in a perfect world and we all know how to avoid the "other" breeders. But with the best will in the world, I do believe that nurture also plays its part, You can breed any breed of dog big or small from the bestest ever behaved parents, but if it ends up in less capable hands then theres always a possibility that said dog can "go bad". 



SEVEN_PETS said:


> Why is there a need for a protection breed? And why shouldn't every dog of every breed see strangers the same as their family, ie very friendly to them?


To get back to this question, I grew up with GSDs, one a failed police dog (got bored tracking), he was always very friendly to anyone coming into the house, so long as they were invited. 



momentofmadness said:


> Would you be intimidated by the skinny bloke approaching you..
> 
> or the stout muscular one??


Personaly I'd judge the stance/walk of the person. In just the same way that I judge any dog that I dont know.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Would you be intimidated by the skinny bloke approaching you..
> 
> or the stout muscular one??


I think it depends really.....(no offence meant to anyone with the following, just trying to make a point) If the skinny bloke was covered in tattoos and piercings wearing a sting vest smoking and swearing and the stout muscular bloke was wearing a suit and smiling i would be more intimidated by the skinny bloke.

Same way if i was out walking my wimp of a staff and had a huge rottie running towards me wagging its tail or a little JRT bearing its teeth snarling and growling I'll take the rottie every day please.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.
> 
> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.
> 
> ...


I haven't read all the answers to this, but I don't think you can blame breeds for the way they act. There are certain breeds I don't trust, but I would never say the should not be breed.

The idea of breeding for temperament does not always work, Amber came from a lovely breeder and was fine with other dogs until she was attacked by another dog, after that any dog that looked anything like the attacker she would go for, she hated them with a passion. This was nothing to do with her breeding, but she could have been classed as aggressive, a it was not her fault.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> Would you be intimidated by the skinny bloke approaching you..
> 
> or the stout muscular one??


Exactly.. Its not down to type.. Its down to body language..


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Absoloutley, and any dog capable and actually carrying out such a horrific attack removed from them. And in my opinion destroyed, what else could you do with such a dog? Who would want to re-home an animal like this?
> The alternative? kennel it in rescue for life? Where?
> 
> I think few would disagree that the owner of this Staff was not responsible enough to own it? So what should have happened to it? What rescue would take a dog in like this that had killed another dog in an unprovoked attack?
> ...


I think you are missing the point that the _handler_ is the one on whom the fault must be laid. It is the handler who is responsible for the safety of his dog and it is the handler's laibility that you are ignoring when you focus on destroying the dog.

Dogs are not cuddly toys. They have instincts, proclivites and no dog can be trusted completely in every situation. It is beholden to the handler to exercise such oversight and care as is needed at any given time. Undoubtedly some dogs require greater skill and vigilance from the handler than others. I know of several patterdale and fell terriers that absolutely require muzzles to keep other furries safe, the same can be said for some greyhounds and huskies and , I suspect, every breed. But such traits are specific to individuals and do not span entire breeds and, even if they did, it still wouldn't let the handler of the hook if he fails to be responsible.

I once fostered a collie/gsd for two years that would have presented a very serious risk to a 5lb yorkie but now is perfectly safe and, in the interim, was kept safe by use of a muzzle and leash and vigilance until these were no longer needed. In the case of the staffie above it is clear that the handler did not exercise sufficient care. Is that the dog's fault?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> Would you be intimidated by the skinny bloke approaching you..
> 
> or the stout muscular one??


I would now cause thats who murdered my 6 ft 3 son albeit he did it from the back


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

but pointing that out I don't run from every skinny kid or 18 yr old I see and neither am i scared of them all


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Johnderondon wrote


> I think you are missing the point that the handler is the one on whom the fault must be laid. It is the handler who is responsible for the safety of his dog and it is the handler's laibility that you are ignoring when you focus on destroying the dog.
> 
> Dogs are not cuddly toys. They have instincts, proclivites and no dog can be trusted completely in every situation. It is beholden to the handler to exercise such oversight and care as is needed at any given time. Undoubtedly some dogs require greater skill and vigilance from the handler than others. I know of several patterdale and fell terriers that absolutely require muzzles to keep other furries safe, the same can be said for some greyhounds and huskies and , I suspect, every breed. But such traits are specific to individuals and do not span entire breeds and, even if they did, it still wouldn't let the handler of the hook if he fails to be responsible.
> 
> I once fostered a collie/gsd for two years that would have presented a very serious risk to a 5lb yorkie but now is perfectly safe and, in the interim, was kept safe by use of a muzzle and leash and vigilance until these were no longer needed. In the case of the staffie above it is clear that the handler did not exercise sufficient care. Is that the dog's fault?


Great response. Hallelujah!! :aureola:


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

Can I just say I am loving the selection of emoticons on here! :crazy:


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Johnderondon said:


> I think you are missing the point that the _handler_ is the one on whom the fault must be laid. It is the handler who is responsible for the safety of his dog and it is the handler's laibility that you are ignoring when you focus on destroying the dog.
> 
> Dogs are not cuddly toys. They have instincts, proclivites and no dog can be trusted completely in every situation. It is beholden to the handler to exercise such oversight and care as is needed at any given time. Undoubtedly some dogs require greater skill and vigilance from the handler than others. I know of several patterdale and fell terriers that absolutely require muzzles to keep other furries safe, the same can be said for some greyhounds and huskies and , I suspect, every breed. But such traits are specific to individuals and do not span entire breeds and, even if they did, it still wouldn't let the handler of the hook if he fails to be responsible.
> 
> I once fostered a collie/gsd for two years that would have presented a very serious risk to a 5lb yorkie but now is perfectly safe and, in the interim, was kept safe by use of a muzzle and leash and vigilance until these were no longer needed. In the case of the staffie above it is clear that the handler did not exercise sufficient care. Is that the dog's fault?


I couldn't agree more...sums it up. With any dog you have a responsability and you should take responsability for thats dogs actions whether positive actions or negatives actions.....I'm sure if a staffy resuced a drowning child the the owner would be quite ha[[y to have all the praise showered upon them however if that staffy then turned and bit the child it had just rescued would the owner be willing to accept the backlash?! (hypothetical situation of course)

If my dog does something positive I'm proud because i made her that way....if she does something negative i never blame her i cross section myself look at why she might have done whatever shes done, and what I can do to stop that situation arising again. My dog my responsabilities.


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Jack and a neighbours humongous rottie HAVE to greet each other when they spot one another.. They both would drag us owners t each other if we didnt let them.
Hes the sweetest dog you could ever meet but id be wary of letting the offlead play together due to his sheer size and muscle mass hes a big beggar lol 
Tho i have to admit said owner has had rotts as long as i can remember and ive lived round here all my life.
I think its wrong to punish a whole breed for a the stupidity of owners.
Yes i think where possible dogs with known temprement problemsshouldnt be bred from but i also believe Nurture far outweighs nature on that point.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> So, the majority of dog breeds then?
> 
> Most dogs are powerful animals. They are _capable_ of causing great harm. This does not mean that they will.
> 
> ...


Along the same lines: the person most likely to murder a woman or child is their partner/father. A shocking number die this way (about 2 women in the uk per week, last time I looked, I try not to, it's depressing). My bloke is very big and strong, he could break my neck with his bare hands. Should he be handcuffed constantly because he's capable of doing me harm? Or would that just be grossly unfair to assume that because of what some do he should be punished just in case.....
The physical capacity to do harm does not mean we should assume that leads to a desire to do so, in humans or animals. If we did, none of us would ever set foot outside of our doors.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Yippeeeeeee....sanity in this thread appears to have been restored xxx


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sort of hypothetical question....On this thread it has come across that some people think that the dogs should be punished for their irrisponsible owners, however many of us consider our dogs like our kids, infact having Lexi is like having a very demanding toddler just with more energy and the ability to leave her on her own.

So taking all that into consideration...when my friend was little, she was three years old, her sister was born. mum left baby and 3 year old in room to answer the phone and baby started crying, my friend knew her mum was on the phone and would be mad at baby crying so put a pillow over babies face, baby ended up in hospital as she nearly suffocated....whose fault is this, the three year old's who was trying to help in her own strange little way, or the mothers for leaving the kids unsupervised?

You can't blame a dog the same way you can't blame a child....

(ps baby was fine she is all grown up now)


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

For those that think bull breeds, rotties etc are more aggressive than other breeds, there is more than enough evidence to dispute this. 

One, the ATT suggests they have very good temperaments.

Two, look at the stats on the APBC website - some of the most common breeds referred for aggression to people inc labs and collies.

Three, you can't trust the media. People have looked into this and found a few common problems - in some cases the breed was wrongly identified as a pit / staff / rott when clearly it was not. One group set out to prove the media bias by giving them stories about other "safe" breeds attacking - and surprise surprise found not one newspaper was interested. Yet every one nationwide will publish a pit / staff / rott story.

Four - look at the numbers, the big picture. Yes, there appear to be plenty of staffy attacks - but staffies are one of the most numerically popular breeds in this country. It is more than likely that less than 1% of staffies attack - why blame the breed when over 99% of them are safe?

Would also like to point out that the PAT dog of the year a couple of years back was a rottweiler. Maybe she should be legislated, leashed and muzzled at all times as she is obviously such a danger!

The "capable of inflicting damage" arguement has numerous flaws too...

For one thing, even tiny dogs can inflict serious injury or even death. Dogs responsible for human deaths include the family favourite the labrador, as well as dachshunds and a pomeranion. Don't give me that "it can't possibly do any harm" BS!!

For another, it goes without saying that the larger and more powerful the dog, the more damage it may potentially inflict. So if we should restrict staffies for this reason, we should also restrict every single breed of a similar or larger size - inc labs, springers, setters, etc.

And one more thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet - aggression can easily cause aggression. Many of the dog-aggressive dogs I've known were fine - up until they were attacked themselves. My friends boxer was such a dog, perfectly dog friendly, until he was savaged by a black lab. The incident made him aggressive towards large black dogs approaching him - at which point he was labelled the problem dog.
Perhaps the owners who let their small / safe / cute breeds attack or harass larger / more butch breeds should consider that they may in fact CAUSE that dog to become a danger in the future.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> The full facts are known, a male Staffy ran across a road and attacked, a tiny 5lb Yorkie bitch, standing quietly by her owner, as she chatted to a neighbour.
> 
> Yorkie was rushed to the vets, survived surgery, the eye which Staffy had ripped out and left hanging, was removed and abdominal surgery performed, but sadly, after going through all that, she died a day or day or two later.
> The Staffy had bitten into her bowel duing attack, if it had "only" taken her eye out, she may have survived, but her abdomen was badly bitten and bowel punctured.
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong because you can never be too sure how things are said over the net but...

Thats ONE dog, ONE incident, ONE time? Why should the whole breed be muzzled because of this?

I honestly know of ALOT more labs, spaniels, terriers and toy breeds that nasty dogs purely because the owner read "suited for families" on the packaging and thought it came ready made. I am wary of ALL dogs when out, as every owner should be. Not just staffs, rotts etc etc.

Aside from that in my general opinion I think it would be awful to muzzle and leash only a select few breeds, its not fair on the dogs who are good examples and the owners who have worked hard to make them that way.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Still don't know if those temperament tests were regarding the dogs temperament towards people or other dogs! 

I don't fear dogs at all when i'm on my own - not any breed but I do when i'm with my dogs but then that would be most dogs. We all know that Staffies in particular are great with people, even the ones with chavs but I think a lot of dog owners are a bit afraid of what they're like with other dogs. Of course not all are like it and it can be any dog but temperament testing around people isn't a concern of mine as it's dog on dog attacks that we here more of now.

Remember the poster on here a couple of weeks ago who was attacked along with her dog by two Staffies and a Bulllmastiff? She said one of the Staffs actually started the attack but the Bullmastiff (rescue) was the one getting all the flack. Two Bullmastiffs killed a dog in Belfairs wood (Essex) last year and a *on lead* Malamute (much larger than any Staff) attacked a dog in Thorpe Bay (Essex) last year, no damage other than a shaken up dog. I think that's the difference between different breeds, some just fight while others go all out - that's why some people are so wary of them.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Years ago.. I watched a program.. and it was about how the germans test all dogs.. and if they reacted to any tests.. they were deemed unsafe.. and it was all breeds..


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I wouldn't mind having tests but it should be the same for all


I can't be positive.. But im sure it was.. this was on the tv years ago..


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Along the same lines: the person most likely to murder a woman or child is their partner/father. A shocking number die this way (about 2 women in the uk per week, last time I looked, I try not to, it's depressing). My bloke is very big and strong, he could break my neck with his bare hands. Should he be handcuffed constantly because he's capable of doing me harm? Or would that just be grossly unfair to assume that because of what some do he should be punished just in case.....
> The physical capacity to do harm does not mean we should assume that leads to a desire to do so, in humans or animals. If we did, none of us would ever set foot outside of our doors.


You can also look at the flip side of this. My OH is big and strong too. Say I have no control over my temper and start punching and kicking him whenever I get annoyed leaving marks and bruises. He doesn't hit back because he's not an aggressive person and doesn't want to hurt me, but my attacks are getting worse by the day and it's frightening because he doesn't know what I'm going to do next and I act like I want to kill him. He tells some of his friends what's going on and asks for advice and what do they do? Laugh at him getting a beating from a *woman* half his size! If it was the other way round with him hitting me it would be an entirely different story just because of the difference in our size and appearance.

My Biscuit was attacked today by two maltese wearing plaid coats and booties. Their owner picked them up and was laughing at their 'viciousness' and saying they're just scared of bigger dogs (Biscuit's still under 25lbs btw). I laughed too, couldn't help myself, but I did gently suggest that she might want to get them into some socialization classes or training so they'd get used to other dogs. The barking was something else - noisy little things! And when she was walking away they were still lunging at Biscuit who was just standing there with a WTF? expression on her face.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Jonesey said:


> You can also look at the flip side of this. My OH is big and strong too. Say I have no control over my temper and start punching and kicking him whenever I get annoyed leaving marks and bruises. He doesn't hit back because he's not an aggressive person and doesn't want to hurt me, but my attacks are getting worse by the day and it's frightening because he doesn't know what I'm going to do next and I act like I want to kill him. He tells some of his friends what's going on and asks for advice and what do they do? Laugh at him getting a beating from a *woman* half his size! If it was the other way round with him hitting me it would be an entirely different story just because of the difference in our size and appearance.
> 
> My Biscuit was attacked today by two maltese wearing plaid coats and booties. Their owner picked them up and was laughing at their 'viciousness' and saying they're just scared of bigger dogs (Biscuit's still under 25lbs btw). I laughed too, couldn't help myself, but I did gently suggest that she might want to get them into some socialization classes or training so they'd get used to other dogs. The barking was something else - noisy little things! And when she was walking away they were still lunging at Biscuit who was just standing there with a WTF? expression on her face.


I think that's summed up what most people have tried to say on this thread - it's down to the owners to take responsibility for how their dogs react. My titchy, sweet looking JRT would bully a rottweiller, if I let him. And I totally agree with you, it's not funny when little dogs do this, whether they get away with it or not. I have the opposite problem, I'm usually telling people not to let their dog run up to him (on lead), while they tell me how friendly their dog is - sigh. Ultimately, I think the whole thing is down to individuals taking responsibility for their own individual dogs and having some respect for others. Apparently that's a bit tricky for most


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I had a GSD that was table trained the old way and would of bitten anyone given the chance. She was kept and walked every day perfectly safely because I was responsible


Good for you. Many Staffy onwers with dangerously dog aggressive animals are incapable of doing so alas. So what do we do with their dogs when they kill another dog? Tell them not to let them do it again?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Correct me if I am wrong because you can never be too sure how things are said over the net but...
> 
> Thats ONE dog, ONE incident, ONE time? Why should the whole breed be muzzled because of this?


I have NEVER said the whole breed should be muzzled, don't know where you got that from ... :nono:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Still don't know if those temperament tests were regarding the dogs temperament towards people or other dogs!
> 
> I don't fear dogs at all when i'm on my own - not any breed but I do when i'm with my dogs but then that would be most dogs. We all know that Staffies in particular are great with people, even the ones with chavs but I think a lot of dog owners are a bit afraid of what they're like with other dogs. Of course not all are like it and it can be any dog but temperament testing around people isn't a concern of mine as it's dog on dog attacks that we here more of now.
> 
> Remember the poster on here a couple of weeks ago who was attacked along with her dog by two Staffies and a Bulllmastiff? She said one of the Staffs actually started the attack but the Bullmastiff (rescue) was the one getting all the flack. Two Bullmastiffs killed a dog in Belfairs wood (Essex) last year and a *on lead* Malamute (much larger than any Staff) attacked a dog in Thorpe Bay (Essex) last year, no damage other than a shaken up dog. I think that's the difference between different breeds, some just fight while others go all out - that's why some people are so wary of them.


I feel the same way as you do, as do many other dog owners 

These temperament tests would be related to attacks/bites on people, I am almost sure. Not dog on dog attacks/killings.

Like you I don't fear any specific breed when I am alone, it's when I have dogs with me ... So agree entirely with all you say :thumbup:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Didn't you already ask this?


Oh Hawksport.......please don't give encouragement it's far too early in the morning


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Oh... I'm going back to bed .!!!!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

hawksport said:


> It's 9.15. Get those muzzles on and take the dogs a walk


Is it 9.15....did the clocks do their thing? OMG need to get off here and get shopping, bar to open at 11.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

hawksport said:


> It's 9.15. Get those muzzles on and take the dogs a walk


OOops Millie forgot her muzzle again this morning.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Ahh but if I stick her muzzle on she won't be able to give me my morning wash !!!!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> Is it 9.15....did the clocks do their thing? OMG need to get off here and get shopping, bar to open at 11.


Bar!!!! Did you mention a bar :lol: :lol:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> Bar!!!! Did you mention a bar :lol: :lol:


Believe me ....living in one is not as exciting as you might think


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> Believe me ....living in one is not as exciting as you might think


I used to live opposite one... Nearly used to live in it :lol:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Dare I read the papers in the morning?


That really depends on your constitution........I myself will be avoiding them for a while.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Dare I read the papers in the morning?


Be Brave  Haha She has been a good girl recently so shouldnt be anything to incriminating


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> I used to live opposite one... Nearly used to live in it :lol:


I would almost live in one if I didn't live in one.....if that makes any sense


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Serious question.....out of all the dogs in the pictures on the last few posts....which is the earliest recognised breed. I would guess that mine is one of the newer ones.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression. Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, only dogs with good temperaments should be bred. Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.
> 
> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible, which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.
> 
> ...


Where abouts is the bollix button on this forum???


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


where's the other bollix button!!:tongue_smilie:


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Not only can it be comprehensively denied the claim cannot be plausibly maintained in the first place.
> 
> Here's some temperament testing results from ATTS
> 
> ...


What are the other temperament factors that this test comprises?
Not just the likelihood of dog on dog aggression I bet.
Nor the breed tendencies for a sustained attack rather than a quick snap.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Jo P said:


> where's the other bollix button!!:tongue_smilie:


I agree!!!!!!!!!!!

No way should ANY breed be forced to wear a muzzle in public this is discrimination!!!!!!!

Sorry for shouting but -

BLAME THE DEED NOT THE BREED!!

And by the way, I cant believe how long this thread has got since I was last on yesterday!!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I :001_wub: Jo P.....where were you for the last few days? 

Seriously, I think the OP was trying to make a decent point to discuss, it was the few people that responded that were utter numptys that made it so bad......it has been a hoot though with all the other opinions.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

For those that have asked about the temperament testing - here is the info from the American Temperament Test Society explaining it.

It looks at the dogs reactions to various stimuli (inc visual, tactile and auditory) to assess friendliness, aggression, protectiveness of self and owner, shyness etc.

There are 10 main parts to the test, assesing the dogs reactions to a neutral stranger, friendly stranger, hidden noise, gunshot, umbrella, walking on plastic and wire surfaces, and approach by a non-threatening, threatening and then aggressive stranger.

Dogs fail if they show strong avoidance, panic or unprovoked aggression.

No, this does not therefore consider dog-dog aggression, but it does look at the dogs general reactions to potentially threatening / scary situations ans general disposition.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If it was my breed that these people were destroying I would be pretty angry about it and want something done. Maybe if some of the racists sorry breedists looked at the real problem and worked with the responsible owners instead of doing their best to alienate them they might achieve something


Amen to that!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If it was my breed that these people were destroying I would be pretty angry about it and want something done. Maybe if some of the racists sorry breedists looked at the real problem and worked with the responsible owners instead of doing their best to alienate them they might achieve something


Indeed and for those calling for a ban on bull breeds remember that includes breeds such as Boston Terriers, French Bulldogs, something that was forgotten in some areas in the US until BSL was enacted.

Once BSL is in, more and more breeds may be added - who's breed will be next...

In Ireland our BSL covers ten breeds, and mixes and related types 

The top types I see with aggression related issues here are Cockers, Border Collie types, Labs, JRTs. More and more Yorkies and just lots of Goldies for resource guarding/handling issues. My stats are proportional to the dog population and are consistent with other practitioners here. 
All of the human directed aggression cases I am currently involved in regard so-called family type dogs - not a bull breed or restricted type among them.

Does this mean that BSL is working here - NO! I see lots of restricted types in all sorts of situations, and some for aggression related issues, just not as many.
I see lots of idiots with dogs that shouldn't have them  too.

Attended a seminar last year, part of which discussed DDA, so called dangerous dogs and the future of BSL in the UK and the biggest theme running through it was that Pit Bulls and some of these other dogs are benign compared to some of the dogs being imported into the UK in very dodgy circs from situations that were not conducive to socialisation and people-friendliness.

And that really summarises one of teh main problems with BSL and the supporting breedist attitude: BSL is sooo under-inclusive and totally over inclusive.
In that, it fails to cover dogs that may indeed pose a real threat due to human error and downright cruelty and of course restricts the activity of some perfectly well behaved, safe dogs that would be a great representation of dog ownership.

BSL is just a crock and educational routes would be far more productive in keeping pets and people safe and happy.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

My concern is mainly with dog on dog aggression and how owners fail to keep known aggressive dogs under control. We all know that Staffies, once known as the "nanny dog" are wonderful with people, as are the majority of Bull breeds - but many are now wary when they are walking their dogs.

My daughters take my little dogs over the park and they've met many Staffs, all friendly even around such small dogs. So I think people do tend to over react, me included but that's because Flynn acts so silly I think he could easily start something off. So you can see that I have the problem dog and for that reason he never goes over the park - not til I get us some training anyway.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

dogs that have bitten me are
A Labrador...when i was a child and Yes it was MY fault i got in trouble. The dog was fast asleep and I put my big head between its paws and startled it

A Chihuahua....I was a pre teen and picked up my dog when this one came out snapping again MY fault i had a Fox terrier cross it could have taken care of itself

A llasha x Poo doesn't count dog was sick

A Sheltie My fault I tried to break up a dog fight between the sick llasha and the sheltie, after this fight which damaged me more than them externally the llasha died from his illness (aggression caused by the drugs) and a few months later the sheltie had to be PTS as he started biting lots of people including my son, grandson, neighbour all within a week. He was never the same dog

A Border Collie it runs loose all the time and is I would think a fear biter it creeps up behind you and bites it also attacks car tires and has bitten 2 kids

A Golden retriever just recently, running loose and tried to attack my collie I told it go home and it jumped and bit haven't seen it loose again, maybe my fault i was trying to keep my new dog away from it on the leash

Dogs that I am friends with on my walks Pitbull (legal here), Belgian Shepherd, a Pryenese cross that looks more like a Lurcher, Chinese Crested, Chihuahuas, Cockers


we also have a lady that does Pitbull rescue she has 3 have never had an incident with them she controls them only thing they have hurt is Rabbits which are rampant in our Hamlet, maybe they will learn to stay out of her yard....


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I must be lucky as I've always lived with dogs, many at a time and never been bitten in all my 55 years, not even as a child. I do think that little dogs bite because they feel threatened due to their size and a niece of mine got bitten in the face by a jrt when she was six but she was picking the dog up - a mistake often made by people with dogs not known to them. Just because they are small they should still be treated with the same respect/caution as any big dog but often aren't. After all they're not toys!


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

Malmum said:


> My concern is mainly with dog on dog aggression and how owners fail to keep known aggressive dogs under control. We all know that Staffies, once known as the "nanny dog" are wonderful with people, as are the majority of Bull breeds - but many are now wary when they are walking their dogs.
> 
> My daughters take my little dogs over the park and they've met many Staffs, all friendly even around such small dogs. So I think people do tend to over react, me included but that's because Flynn acts so silly I think he could easily start something off. So you can see that I have the problem dog and for that reason he never goes over the park - not til I get us some training anyway.


That's what worries me too. Aside from the position I've stated earlier in the thread, if Bumble was aggressive and started something it would be my fault, not the other dogs at all. In that respect, if no other, I'd never let him be aggressive despite his size

Em
xx


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

So now we are on this line....

The dogs that have bitten me... 

A Corgi... I was very small and told it to sit.. pointed like Barbara Woodhouse.. Possibly spat at it too.. and it grabbed my hand.. witha snarl.. I guess it didn't like being told what to do.. 

Collie x GSD She bit my wrist when I was separating her in a fight.. I never learn.. Made a small mess.. Affected the nerves too my hand.. I would say it was my own fault..  

A doberman whilst splitting it having a fight with my weim... They were muzzled but as I was trying to seperate them some how I demuzzled them>..  Made a right mess.. My fault again.. But id probably do it again.. :yikes:

And I have been snapped at by my step mums, mums chi again when I was small..

Not once I have been bitten by a bull breed.. Or a rottie..


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

The only one requiring medical attention was the Sheltie bite, it hit a vein and having leukemia my blood doesn't clot correctly. So I called my Brother for a ride to the ER I told him there's blood everywhere don't know if its mine or the dogs ...lol he let go as soon as he realized it was me and not the other dog....


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> So now we are on this line....
> 
> The dogs that have bitten me...
> 
> ...


I don't know how but at first glance I thought the post said 'I've only ever been bitten by cattle' :lol:

Em
xx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think when small dogs go off it's usually a snap with no warning, where as larger dogs tend to growl first so you have time to avoid.

I have to say that in all the time I've had dogs I've never had them involved in a fight, except the attack which left my dog dead - and because of that attack I'm still wary of most dogs - which I know is ridiculous but it's hard to forget and move on. Only wary with Flynn though because of what I said earlier - don't have fears with the other's and Kali doesn't give a flying fig about dogs, so walks with her are a dream, as all walks should be.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I guess my point is not one was a Bull breed, not one was under control at the time. It's not the breed that is at fault here. People worry about the lady with the Pittys but they are never running loose and when you meet them they are very social. A couple of the rescues have had dog on dog aggression she keeps them on a leash. One is deaf and so she is keeping it cause one of her own has taken it under its wing and the deaf one does whatever the hearing one does it is now trained for hand signals...


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Out of the three bullterriers I have had, only one has had a fight , the other dog did start it with him, the dog jumped over its own garden wall to get at him while we were walking past, our Ozzy was on the lead at the time.

Mavis and our first buster have been attacked plenty but never retaliated.. Mavis just cowers and we have to step in to protect her and buster would just use his head and fling the dog out the way. :lol:

Juex


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Oh yeah.. hospital treatment for two of the bites.. The dobe one was taken by ambulance.. Blood everywhere.. 
And the collie x gsd.. went by car.. not so much blood but deep bites if you look in the middle of your wrist, she bit down the bone and you could see it.. The bone that is.. I asked my mum.. is it my bone.. She said nooooo.. I asked the nurse when in A&E she said I am afraid so.. I was like.. I think I may be sick.. but the electric shock feeling up my arm was the weird bit..

Out of all my incidents.. two were my own dogs and having a dispute with another dog.. Lesson should be learnt not to stick my hands in.. But me being me.. Id probably do it again..


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## paşa's mummy (Feb 5, 2011)

i think more should be done to police the people who own dogs, all breeds all shapes and sizes because all dogs can turn in the right situation, my mum rehomed a GSD last august who has dog anxiety, we dont know the full depth of her history just that she was one of 2 and the other died and she was never the same again with dogs. we have been doing alot to socialise her and she is making amazing progress, however the other day she came to my house and we were on some spare land next to my house playing with her and some others she knows and is ok with. one of the other dogs < a belgium shepherd had snide nips of jazz, i kept calling her back and decided enough was enough as the other dogs owners wasnt doing anything to stop it happening, i called jazz and she was running back to me when the begium shep bite jazz at the side of the eye. this resulted in jazz "turning" and pinning the other dog to the floor in one movement i called for her to drop and as she released the dog the other owner pinned jazz to the floor< not a good move with a dog who is rageing!!! his dog then latched to jazz's face and would not let go. all the time jazz is pinned to the floor. my OH and myself finally managed to get the other dog off a jazz out of the way. jazz had a black eye<< you could see it through her fur, a punctured lip and sore face. you can imagine how far back she has now gone in terms of getting over the anxiety. 

i then had a lecture on how i should control my dog!! i dont think any one party was entirly to blame and count my lucky stars that neither ended with a costly trip to the vet, but i think it was unfair to blame everything on to jazz when it was his dog that was nipping and biting and he allowed it to happen despite knowing her history. needless to say jazz will not be playing on this land with those dogs again. its just not worth the hastle or set back as we have now started barking at the sight of dogs again!


anyway rant over


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

It's not just dogs that can be aggressive my old cat had some aggression.( sadly now at Rainbow Bridge)

You were not allowed to laugh at him or point at him.

One of my boyfriends did laugh and point on two separate occasions.Even after I warned him not too. He though 'What he is only a cat"

My cat retaliated by chasing him around the coffee table in my living room and for the finger point he waited till BF was nice and relaxed on Sofa and dive bombed onto him. 

He didn't like you sneezing either

He was such a character and sadly missed


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> It's not just dogs that can be aggressive my old cat had some aggression.( sadly now at Rainbow Bridge)
> 
> You were not allowed to laugh at him or point at him.
> 
> ...


:lol:

Em
xx

EDIT - R.I.P little puss xx


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Eroswoof said:


> :lol:
> 
> Em
> xx
> ...


Actually I remember now Fergal (cat) went up and bit him after the finger point and laughing at him. Not hard but just to say don't bloody well point and laugh at me.

Also he loved to be whacked with rolled up newspapers. Soon as you rolled it up he came running over and you whacked his bum with it he loved it bless him. 

Think I had a S&M cat :lol::lol:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Actually I remember now Fergal (cat) went up and bit him after the finger point and laughing at him. Not hard but just to say don't bloody well point and laugh at me.
> 
> Also he loved to be whacked with rolled up newspapers. Soon as you rolled it up he came running over and you whacked his bum with it he loved it bless him.
> 
> Think I had a S&M cat :lol::lol:


Someone on here a while back posted a video of their S&M cat it was mad!


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Actually I remember now Fergal (cat) went up and bit him after the finger point and laughing at him. Not hard but just to say don't bloody well point and laugh at me.
> 
> Also he loved to be whacked with rolled up newspapers. Soon as you rolled it up he came running over and you whacked his bum with it he loved it bless him.
> 
> Think I had a S&M cat :lol::lol:


 Have you got photos of him? Hint hint 

Em
xx


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Good for you. Many Staffy onwers with dangerously dog aggressive animals are incapable of doing so alas. So what do we do with their dogs when they kill another dog? Tell them not to let them do it again?


You are still focusing on the dogs and not the owners who have proved to be incompetent. Do you think that by destroying their dog and allowing them to go straight back out and repeat the same behaviour with a new dog that society is any better off?

Of course not! In order to fix any problem we must identify and act against the cause of the problem. In the case of dogs which are permitted to menace society the cause of the problem, 99% of the time, is textbook poor ownership. Focusing on the dog is to focus on the symptom and to leave the cause untouched. When a bad driver runs down and kills a pedestrian we don't say "Destroy that car!" while we send the driver off to go and get another car to wreck.

Sadly, with dogs, that's exactly what we do all too often.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

you mention staffies,theres alot around here and they dont look right,short,fat and stunted...almost cross bred in fact......my sister has 2 and they are big for the breed,real pedigree with no attitude

heres her male


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tripod said:


> Indeed and for those calling for a ban on bull breeds


Where on this thread has ANYONE suggested bull breeds should be banned 

I haven't read anything of the such :nono:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I must be lucky as I've always lived with dogs, many at a time and never been bitten in all my 55 years, not even as a child. I do think that little dogs bite because they feel threatened due to their size and a niece of mine got bitten in the face by a jrt when she was six but she was picking the dog up - a mistake often made by people with dogs not known to them. Just because they are small they should still be treated with the same respect/caution as any big dog but often aren't. After all they're not toys!


I've never been bitten either and I've spent many years involved with animal welfare and walking rescue dogs at kennels


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> You are still focusing on the dogs and not the owners who have proved to be incompetent. Do you think that by destroying their dog and allowing them to go straight back out and repeat the same behaviour with a new dog that society is any better off?
> 
> Sadly, with dogs, that's exactly what we do all too often.


So ... what should we do with a dog ... sorry owner and dog that kills another dog in an unprovoked and determined attack?

On a practical level? Nobody it seems can or will answer this question


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Eroswoof said:


> Have you got photos of him? Hint hint
> 
> Em
> xx


I haven't got any digitally and have tried to scan before and couldn't get it to upload.

I don't have any unusual ones of him though  he was just a black and white moggie but he was just so full of fun.

I still miss him


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Simple you ban the irresponsible owners just the same as we do dangerous drivers. Not just kill the dog that is just another victim of a bad owner and then let them do it again with another dog


It's a good idea, not sure if it's enforcable though without support from members of the public- years ago my SIL was jailed for a month & banned for life from keeping animals after leaving her golden retrievers to starve to death, just a week after coming out of prison she acqured 2 kittens 'for the kids'. My hubby visited her & threatened to report her (he doesn't care that it was his sister, a ban is a ban), but not everyone would have it in them to do something


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

skyblue said:


> you mention staffies,theres alot around here and they dont look right,short,fat and stunted...almost cross bred in fact......my sister has 2 and they are big for the breed,real pedigree with no attitude
> 
> heres her male


now he is lovely...A pure staff would be on my next dog list i think


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Where on this thread has ANYONE suggested bull breeds should be banned
> 
> I haven't read anything of the such :nono:


Ok, weimylady didn't say banned, but legislated...



WeimyLady said:


> I think all Staffords, Bull Terrier types, Rottweilers, etc....should be legislated (not illegal but forced to be muzzled and kept on lead at all times). You can't deny that they have a dendancy to display aggression more than any other breed. So many are intimdated by these breeds and with good reason.
> 
> People who say "aggression is aggression" are kidding themselves. Bull breeds are probably some of the only breeds who will do a sustained attack...the power these dogs are capable of is frightening. I'm not sure how many dogs and people need to be mauled and killed it before some kind of action is taken.


In fact, I think this is the only post that actually, clearly said "this breed should always be on a leash", however others implied it (either through intention or maybe there was miscommunication) - and a few people "liked" weimylady's post, so others I guess presumed those people agreed even though they never said it themselves.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> So ... what should we do ... On a practical level?





hawksport said:


> Simple you ban the irresponsible owners just





simplysardonic said:


> It's a good idea, not sure if it's enforcable


This is a problem. Animal keeping bans are particularly easy to flout. If there are several people within the same household then a ban on any particular person becomes almost unenforceable - they simply claim the dog belongs to their wife/brother/mum/etc.

The solution must, ultimately, take the form of increased owner responsibility and I don't think there is a simple one-stop fix that will achieve this. It will require a series of measures working together. Courts must have greater discretionary powers to order muzzling, training courses and control orders. But the most important first step - the essential pre-requiste or we can forget anything else - is mandatory, permanent identification of all dogs and a national register. We have to know who the dog belongs to, who is actually responsible for that dog. Once we have that then we can draft legislation that truly holds owners accountable - perhaps wife/brother/mum wont be so willing to play along when they realise how much they are putting themselves in the firing line. Personally I favour competency testing. It would certainly help to have laws that dealt with ownership standards and didn't get hung up on the shape of the dog. Whatever the final solution we eventually opt for it must recognise that dangerous dogs is a people problem and not as dog problem. If it doesn't do that then it wont work.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> In fact, I think this is the only post that actually, clearly said "this breed should always be on a leash", however others implied it (either through intention or maybe there was miscommunication) - and a few people "liked" weimylady's post, so others I guess presumed those people agreed even though they never said it themselves.


Other posters clearly stated 'all bull breeds on lead at all times', some suggested or hinted at muzzling (weimylady included). Not only is it a completely insane suggestion for all bull breeds to be on lead and muzzled when out ut: how on earth would they police it for one?! Typical knee-jerk reaction and I too was quite taken aback by some people's discrimination against bull-breeds on a pet forum such as this :frown: Nevermind...


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

ban bull breeds?.....if you include the mastiff lines in with that there wouldn't be much choice of dog

and criminals would love it,no big dogs in a property,just the bark puts them off


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I think we need to be realistic - If it were legistated that certain dog breeds had to be leashed and muzzled in certain areas how do you distinguish which breeds? How do you ensure it is enforced? What about cross breeds / mongrals where your not even sure what breed's they are - Should these be muzzled / Leashed in case? If people think this is honestly the way forward thn surely the only way forward would be ALL dogs no matter what breed or size to be leashed / muzzled! BUT it is the law all dogs are on a leash and under control in public places - and we all know this isnt adhered to.

The types of people who lack the skills / intelligence to train / socialise their dogs thus are the cause of this issue will most likley not comply if this was legislated!

I have to admit I joined this forumas I believed it was a forum of people who cared and were intrested in dogs in general. I really wasnt expecting such strong breedist views which put down a whole breed due to the incompetance of the minority.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

How can a dog learn proper dog socialisation etc if it's muzzled and on lead at all times IMO that's an accident waiting to happen 

The dog would lack people skills and dog skills they wouldn't ever be a balanced dog


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I can't believe there are actually dog lovers who are discriminate to certain breeds that have a bad reputation!! :scared:
What an absolutely rediculous thing to say that all breeds that have a bad rep should be leashed and muzzled at all times 

My typey staff cross is the friendliest ive ever come across and have had many people complimenting me on him. It baffles me as to why someone would say all bull breeds should be muzzled


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

PoisonGirl said:


> I can't believe there are actually dog lovers who are discriminate to certain breeds that have a bad reputation!! :scared:
> What an absolutely rediculous thing to say that all breeds that have a bad rep should be leashed and muzzled at all times
> 
> My typey staff cross is the friendliest ive ever come across and have had many people complimenting me on him. *It baffles me as to why someone would say all bull breeds should be muzzled*


Probably because they take everything they read about bull breeds in the Daily Fail & others as gospel truth


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I know i'm ancient but I can remember a time when a staffy was known for it's even temper, suitability as a family dog, all round positives. I still believe that is true as I haven't actually met one personally that doesn't fulfill those traits. 
We have a staffy that comes in here, never off lead and always lovely, that is brought in by an older woman but it really belongs to her son. Her son is halfway through his second 4 stretch for dealing class A. His dog at least is a credit to him!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> Probably because they take everything they read about bull breeds in the Daily Fail & others as gospel truth


The Daily Fail + Staffordshire Bull Terrier=


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

My scary typey agressive staff cross :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

PoisonGirl said:


> My scary typey agressive staff cross :lol: :lol: :lol:


Arwwww, how gorgeous! :001_wub:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Simple you ban the irresponsible owners just the same as we do dangerous drivers. Not just kill the dog that is just another victim of a bad owner and then let them do it again with another dog


They'd get another dog anyway. How many times are people taken to court and banned from keeping a dog for cruelty reasons, onlt to get another, I've certainly read about it and have com e across it personally.

They then just say it's not their dog but wife's, husbands, sons etc ... Nah that would not work, indeed it doesn't now


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm just thinking...Bumby weighs 4kg, 3 of which is hair 

Any small breed could cause him serious harm, a large cat could cause him serious harm.

Surely it's down to me as his owner to be competent enough to judge when he's safe or not?

I read the story about the Yorkie and if I was that lady it'd kill me, but because I'm not personally involved I can see that, sad as it was, when compared to the amount of meetings small dogs have with any other dog everyday, it's incredibly unlikely.

Heartbreaking as it was it was an exception, not the rule. 

I couldn't demand every other small dog was muzzled etc just because they could hurt Bumble. 

Em
xx


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Eroswoof said:


> I'm just thinking...Bumby weighs 4kg, 3 of which is hair
> 
> Any small breed could cause him serious harm, a large cat could cause him serious harm.
> 
> ...


With there where more small dog owners like you 

Most I come across not ALL but most owners of small breeds are SO panicky and think every other dog is out to get theres and well bubble wrap them. Yes I am aware that smaller breeds can be damaged by a bigger dog quite easily, even in play but some owners just really might aswell wrap their dog in bubble wrap, or put them inn one of the balls.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> With there where more small dog owners like you
> 
> Most I come across not ALL but most owners of small breeds are SO panicky and think every other dog is out to get theres and well bubble wrap them. Yes I am aware that smaller breeds can be damaged by a bigger dog quite easily, even in play but some owners just really might aswell wrap their dog in bubble wrap, or put them inn one of the balls.


 like one of those zorb things?! That'd be so much fun mind :lol: *considers* :lol:

Em
xx


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Eroswoof said:


> like one of those zorb things?! That'd be so much fun mind :lol: *considers* :lol:
> 
> Em
> xx


I want one for myself


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> With there where more small dog owners like you
> 
> Most I come across not ALL but most owners of small breeds are SO panicky and think every other dog is out to get theres and well bubble wrap them. Yes I am aware that smaller breeds can be damaged by a bigger dog quite easily, even in play but some owners just really might aswell wrap their dog in bubble wrap, or put them inn one of the balls.


So do I...we have just returned from a fun dog show where we went so Kilo would get used to being calm with lots of dogs, kids etc around (and bless him, he behaved beautifully!!) and we had warning snaps and snarls from 4 small dogs. What did they have in common? All were dressed in clothes (one even had makeup, jewellery and a wig on ), all were carried about and only put on the ground when the owners were sat on blankets and none of them were allowed to just be dogs. I saw them snap at dog, after dog after dog that went past. The owners thought it was cute, I thought it was ill-mannered and felt sorry for the poor little critters who obviously had not been socialised properly. Out of all the dogs they showed aggression towards, only one responded.

One lady made a huge fuss of Kilo, asked what breed he was then said 'glad you didn't tell me that before I stroked him'


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Dogless said:


> So do I...we have just returned from a fun dog show where we went so Kilo would get used to being calm with lots of dogs, kids etc around (and bless him, he behaved beautifully!!) and we had warning snaps and snarls from 4 small dogs. What did they have in common? All were dressed in clothes (one even had makeup, jewellery and a wig on ), all were carried about and only put on the ground when the owners were sat on blankets and none of them were allowed to just be dogs. I saw them snap at dog, after dog after dog that went past. The owners thought it was cute, I thought it was ill-mannered and felt sorry for the poor little critters who obviously had not been socialised properly. Out of all the dogs they showed aggression towards, only one responded.
> 
> One lady made a huge fuss of Kilo, asked what breed he was then said 'glad you didn't tell me that before I stroked him'


It's so fustrating isn't it! I have a Patterdale, springers, cockers, labs and a setter they all ignore other dogs. But if they retaliate which they will do and quite rightly so to ANY dog that snaps at them I always find it is the little dog owners that make the biggest fuss when they're dog starts it. Whereas the dogs of medium-large usually apologise or do an awkward grin and sidle off. 
Bess is only 12 inches at the shoulder but if she showed aggression to another dog which she used to as she was fear aggressive and still can be at times it would be MY job to correct her. Having said that some dogs can be overly friendly and don't know when to quit


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Dogless said:


> So do I...we have just returned from a fun dog show where we went so Kilo would get used to being calm with lots of dogs, kids etc around (and bless him, he behaved beautifully!!) and we had warning snaps and snarls from 4 small dogs. What did they have in common? All were dressed in clothes (one even had makeup, jewellery and a wig on ), all were carried about and only put on the ground when the owners were sat on blankets and none of them were allowed to just be dogs. I saw them snap at dog, after dog after dog that went past. The owners thought it was cute, I thought it was ill-mannered and felt sorry for the poor little critters who obviously had not been socialised properly. Out of all the dogs they showed aggression towards, only one responded.
> 
> One lady made a huge fuss of Kilo, asked what breed he was then said 'glad you didn't tell me that before I stroked him'


what is kilo?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Dogless said:


> So do I...we have just returned from a fun dog show where we went so Kilo would get used to being calm with lots of dogs, kids etc around (and bless him, he behaved beautifully!!) and we had warning snaps and snarls from 4 small dogs. What did they have in common? All were dressed in clothes (one even had makeup, jewellery and a wig on ), all were carried about and only put on the ground when the owners were sat on blankets and none of them were allowed to just be dogs. I saw them snap at dog, after dog after dog that went past. The owners thought it was cute, I thought it was ill-mannered and felt sorry for the poor little critters who obviously had not been socialised properly. Out of all the dogs they showed aggression towards, only one responded.
> 
> One lady made a huge fuss of Kilo, asked what breed he was then said 'glad you didn't tell me that before I stroked him'


I don't even know where to START with that  :lol: He's a dog! He likes getting messy, playing on the beach etc. He wears a coat in the winter, sometimes he gets layered if it's super cold, like when we had about 5ft of snow last winter...but it's gorgeous weather today...why would you dress them?!

I agree with, think it was Hawksport, that said ALL dogs should be regulated. I think owners for ALL dogs should be too.

Em
xx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

skyblue said:


> what is kilo?


He's a Rhodesian Ridgeback.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Dogless said:


> He's a Rhodesian Ridgeback.


sweeeeeet!!!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Eroswoof said:


> I don't even know where to START with that  :lol: He's a dog! He likes getting messy, playing on the beach etc. He wears a coat in the winter, sometimes he gets layered if it's super cold, like when we had about 5ft of snow last winter...but it's gorgeous weather today...why would you dress them?!
> 
> I agree with, think it was Hawksport, that said ALL dogs should be regulated. I think owners for ALL dogs should be too.
> 
> ...


Absolutely.

I also think that dogs should be dogs, like you allow Bumble to be. I didn't know that you got dog makeup and jewellery before today , I just felt so sorry for these dogs, they had three outfit changes in the four hours we were there and absolutely did not look happy. In my mind it is tantamount to abuse (not talking about clothing needed for the elements etc by the way - talking about wigs, hats, dresses etc )


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

skyblue said:


> sweeeeeet!!!!


Thanks, he's great, really coming on nicely (until the teenage stage hits I guess )


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I also think that dogs should be dogs, like you allow Bumble to be. I didn't know that you got dog makeup and jewellery before today , I just felt so sorry for these dogs, they had three outfit changes in the four hours we were there and absolutely did not look happy. In my mind it is tantamount to abuse (not talking about clothing needed for the elements etc by the way - talking about wigs, hats, dresses etc )


It's not on at all  In Bumbys case, he's got the pom double coat so it's not often he needs to even wear his coat really.

Admittedly - he DOES have a change of collars and leads 

Em
xx


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Eroswoof said:


> It's not on at all  In Bumbys case, he's got the pom double coat so it's not often he needs to even wear his coat really.
> 
> Admittedly - he DOES have a change of collars and leads
> 
> ...


I think you should get him a little t-shirt with Bumby written on ( love his name) to wear on his birthday, Mother's Day and Xmas


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think you should get him a little t-shirt with Bumby written on ( love his name) to wear on his birthday, Mother's Day and Xmas


Okay...right...here's my BIG confession :lol:

I've got a hoodie that says 'I love Bumble' on the back LOL :lol:

There. I said it. :lol:

Em
xx


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Thanks, he's great, really coming on nicely (until the teenage stage hits I guess )


i'll only have big dogs and those are fantastic


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

PoisonGirl said:


> My scary typey agressive staff cross :lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh NO!!! Staff X unmuzzled in the same room as a baby - WTF are you thinking of!!!

:tongue_smilie:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hawksport said:


> It dosn't work now because there are too many loopholes and the penalty or non compliance is a slap on the wrist, These problems could be fixed or we could carry on killing dogs untill these people run out of stolen playstations to swap for new dogs


Doesn't look set to change anytime soon ...


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> They'd get another dog anyway. How many times are people taken to court and banned from keeping a dog for cruelty reasons, onlt to get another, I've certainly read about it and have com e across it personally.
> 
> They then just say it's not their dog but wife's, husbands, sons etc ... Nah that would not work, indeed it doesn't now


All of which is a powerful argument against your earlier proposal that we should take their dogs.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Eroswoof said:


> Okay...right...here's my BIG confession :lol:
> 
> I've got a hoodie that says 'I love Bumble' on the back LOL :lol:
> 
> ...


 Great Stuff!!!

I bought Monty a t-shirt when he was little in Tesco as they were selling it reduced for a £1 it was black with Skull and xbones studded on back. More just to tease Hubby.

But we did buy him a red t-shirt with Little ~Devil written on back to wear on Xmas day.

That's the only time just to take photos and Xmas.

Mind you Monty really loves it  I'm telling you he is the Alan Carr of the dog world 

At Xmas when we had all that snow I put both of them in them. Milly had Monty's black one. It was better than their coats and just kept them dry when they were out in the snow when in back garden.

Here's some pics 

and sorry for taking topic off subject :001_smile:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> All of which is a powerful argument against your earlier proposal that we should take their dogs.


Which dogs?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hawksport said:


> The very rare occurance of a dog being killed by another dog is probably fairly low down on the goverments list of priorities


You don't say ...


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Which dogs?


Short memory? Here you go...



Amethyst said:


> Absoloutley, and any dog capable and actually carrying out such a horrific attack removed from them. And in my opinion destroyed,


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Doesn't look set to change anytime soon ...


That could have been the first reply to the OP and end of thread but it would not have been half as entertaining :lol:


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

OMG Rotts off lead, enjoying themselves IN A PUBLIC PLACE!!!!


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

and we met this 5 month old JRT whilst we were out - and guess what - they didnt eat him, who'd have thought it


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> Short memory? Here you go...


Sarky :001_tt2:

I've already clearly stated what I think :blink:


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Jo P said:


> OMG Rotts off lead, enjoying themselves IN A PUBLIC PLACE!!!!


Your dogs are gorgeous! Looks like a lovely walking place! I love the pic with the JRT too


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

shibby said:


> Your dogs are gorgeous! Looks like a lovely walking place too! I love the pic with the JRT too


Thank you - they are really special pooches :001_smile:

It's a great place to go for a walk - only problem is it gets really busy on a weekend, lots of cyclists, so you have to have eyes in the back of your head or you get mown down!!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Jo P said:


> OMG Rotts off lead, enjoying themselves IN A PUBLIC PLACE!!!!


Nice picture, What lock flight is that?

Oh and BTW, canal towpaths are not a public place they are owned by British Waterways, the biggest land owner in this country.

They give open access to the public but can withdraw it at any time.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Jo P said:


> Thank you - they are really special pooches :001_smile:
> 
> It's a great place to go for a walk - only problem is it gets really busy on a weekend, lots of cyclists, so you have to have eyes in the back of your head or you get mown down!!


Haha, oh yes, I appreciate it when cyclists give you a little ring of their bicycle bell, some are so silent. I wish we could meet more Rottweilers on our walks, we met one at the weekend and he was lovely, very patient with our adolescent Staffie


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Jo P said:


> lots of cyclists, so you have to have eyes in the back of your head or you get mown down!!


Ahh the lycra clad lunatics 

Just gather ther dogs and s l o w l y move to one side so they have to slow down.

Elbows are a good weapon 

They also need a permit from BW unless it part of the national cucle route


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Jo P said:


> OMG Rotts off lead, enjoying themselves IN A PUBLIC PLACE!!!!


Showed this lovely pic to my OH and all he said was 'Thats the Bingley 5 rise'....he's a philistine


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Nice picture, What lock flight is that?
> 
> Oh and BTW, canal towpaths are not a public place they are owned by British Waterways, the biggest land owner in this country.
> 
> They give open access to the public but can withdraw it at any time.


It's Bingley Five Rise Locks at ................. erm Bingley LMAO

Didnt know that about them being owned by BW - learn something new every day :thumbup1:


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

We've taken out 'devil dog' staffie to the beach today, and a couple of things made me giggle then think of this thread.....firstly yes she was offlead running and swimming in the sea playing with the other dogs, all the lab and spaniel and other big dog owners had no issues with their dogs running around with my dog, but i did have 2 negative comments, one woman walking her chis, picked both her dogs up when she saw us coming...so i popped Lex on her extendable lead and shouted its ok shes friendly...to which the woman replied that's not possible theres no such thing those dogs are monsters, and another woman walking some type of toy breed not sure of the exact breed had an absolute melt down when her dog trotted over to say hello to lexi, cam sprinting down the beach after it and snatched it up....two things came to mind, one if you dog had any recall you wouldn't have had to run after it, and running screaming down the beach was going to put the fear of god into it.

Anyway came of the beach and went for a wandering round the shops and a group of people approached (group of teenage lads typically staff owners if you know what i mean, no offence to anyone) and were fussing her asking how old she was, they were all shocked when i said she's 2 this week....they all asked what she was crossed with, i said nothing she is a pure bred....so then asked if she was a 'mini - staff' because she is so small...she isn't small she is breed standard height and weight and i pointed this out to them....they had no idea what breed standard meant and couldn't and wouldn't believe me that as a bitch she is fairly big, she is technically 0.1kg over breed standard weight.

It sums it up staffs are being bred bigger and bigger so when you get a breed standard size staffie noone recognises them...she was playing with another staff on the beach that was almost double her height and weighed near on 30kg....thats not a staff as a staff should be!!


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Emmastace said:


> Showed this lovely pic to my OH and all he said was 'Thats the Bingley 5 rise'....he's a philistine


LOL it is indeedy :001_smile:


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Ahh the lycra clad lunatics
> 
> Just gather ther dogs and s l o w l y move to one side so they have to slow down.
> 
> ...


It really infuriates me how ignorant some of them are - it clearly says on the tow path that pedestrians have the right of way but some of them must have goddamn blinkers on!! And the number of them that cant even be bothered saying thank you when you move out of the way for them - I always shout 'You're Welcome' after them:dita:


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Jo P said:


> It really infuriates me how ignorant some of them are - it clearly says on the tow path that pedestrians have the right of way but some of them must have goddamn blinkers on!! And the number of them that cant even be bothered saying thank you when you move out of the way for them - I always shout 'You're Welcome' after them:dita:


:lol:

I lived on a barge for over 7yrs so I know what they are like 

I was tempted to get a toy breed snapper to chase them and give them some grief


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Jo P said:


> LOL it is indeedy :001_smile:


He is a canal and lock nerd.........yes I do wonder how we ever managed to get together


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> He is a canal and lock nerd.........yes I do wonder how we ever managed to get together


Wishful thinking darling,I dont know you from Adam :blink:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Jo P said:


> OMG Rotts off lead, enjoying themselves IN A PUBLIC PLACE!!!!


OMG that picture is fantastic, lovely to see 2 well behaved dogs off lead and the breed a lot think should be locked away. I just love rotties


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Stop the byb and puppy farmers and you will stop the temperament problems.


I think it really comes down to the whole nature nurture debate. Buster was from a bad place...The place seemed lovely - we did our research and all seemed great a few weeks later we realised the true story. The breeder bred for Huntingdon Life Sciences, she was a puppy farmer and although the lovely house, rosettes, dog toys, fake health testing certificates looked good it was a smokescreen....some where bred there others were imported from ireland

I am humiliated but it inspired me to become a volunteer with BW. Buster has no aggression issues...he was trained from day one!! Millie our rescue was bred by a good, well known breeder but her upbringing was poor and she has quite nasty food agression.

I would never advocate BYB or puppy farmers BUT we have made a good thing out of a bad situation and Buster is a dog to be 100% proud of. In the wrong hands he could be evil...I do believe that the good old nature nurture debate can play a part sometimes!! :smile:


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Wishful thinking darling,I dont know you from Adam :blink:


The perils of cross posting .....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> no, you've read my post incorrectly. I didn't say that staffies shouldn't be bred, just dog aggressive ones. Well tempered staffies should be bred as they are a lovely breed.


A dog aggressive dog is a completely different ball game to being human aggressive!

My MILs boxer is horrific with dogs in certain circumstances, but as for people he's soft as. In fact, he's actually pathetic with people to the point he'll lie down and roll over infront of a stranger for a belly rub. He's dog aggressive because he's not been socialised well enough, since my MIL and FIL got divorced. Its something we're working on now and he's got a lot better, and doesn't lunge at other dogs now which is a massive step, but that's all it boils down to. Badly trained/socialised dogs are just that. Because a dog has an issue with other dogs, doesn't mean its going to kill/hurt someone.

I agree that those dogs known to be aggressive towards strangers/people shouldn't be bred from, and I doubt any responsible breeder would. But linking dog aggression to agression towards people isn't right in my opinion.



LexiLou2 said:


> We've taken out 'devil dog' staffie to the beach today, and a couple of things made me giggle then think of this thread.....firstly yes she was offlead running and swimming in the sea playing with the other dogs, all the lab and spaniel and other big dog owners had no issues with their dogs running around with my dog, but i did have 2 negative comments, one woman walking her chis, picked both her dogs up when she saw us coming...so i popped Lex on her extendable lead and shouted its ok shes friendly...to which the woman replied that's not possible theres no such thing those dogs are monsters


Ooooh, we went to the beach yesterday!! Roo and Harvey had the time of their lives and spent ages playing with another devil staff called Tia who was smaller than Harvey.... Bloke asked us what he was crossed with, and we were like got no idea, although I have started telling people different absurd things each time they ask like poodle or chi, just becuase the looks on their faces make me giggle. (Childish I know...).

I tend to ignore the stupid comments now and just tell them I feel sorry for their dog, being owned by someone clearly so un-educated. Before we got Harvey, although I liked staffs, they were never a breed I'd really thought about owning. But now I doubt if I'll ever go away from them to be honest. They are the most loyal, loving and licky dogs I've ever had the pleasure to come across, and I've not met ONE badly behaved or vicious one yet.

To all those staffie fearers or haters, I pity you. You'll never know the meaning of true Staffy love.

(P.s. if you're reading this Roo, yes, you're still my baby...) :blink:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Tell it to the Yorkie owner Let's ask her...............


I tell you what, my Harvey got attacked on a walks the other day by, guess what, a chi x yorkie. It clamped itself onto his leg, drew blood and had Harvey, my evil, vicious staff trembling all the way home. Once home he was straight in his crate and didn't come out for 3 hours. 

When Roo was little, he was set on by a pug, I've still got the scars to prove it.

So, how about you ask me then. Although no lasting, physical damage was done to him, are you seriously suggesting that its ok for those dogs to be off lead, because they can't do as much damage?! Rubbish, dog aggressive dogs should be leashed at all times, no matter what their breed.

And to be quite honest, all this babying and fretting about small dogs does nothing to help their temperament. I'm much more worried about a chi/pug/yorkie walking towards my dogs than I am a bigger one. But you know why? Sad as this is, I worry that they will go for my dogs and my dogs would retaliate, cause damage, and then get the reaction you've displayed over this thread.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

In my experience.. And thi is purely me out walking my dogs.. bearing in mind I have had a rottie xGSD.. 2 staffs a dobe and my weims..

in my experience of walking I notice the people with the bigger dogs do seem to have more control and an understanding of respect to other walkers..

That statement is purely based on my experience..

But I will say I did meet a lovely couple yesterday out with a yorkie on an extendible.. I shouted mine to grab them .. And he quite openly admitted.. Its ok he isn't aggressive I just have him on the lead cause he likes to go say hello to everyone.. And there are plenty out here who aren't quite in agreeable..

He said we are working on it.. But a Sunday afternoon here is not the day to be trying.. 

I was quite impressed with the guy.. Its was like he had read this thread.. :lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> But I will say I did meet a lovely couple yesterday out with a yorkie on an extendible.. I shouted mine to grab them .. And he quite openly admitted.. Its ok he isn't aggressive I just have him on the lead cause he likes to go say hello to everyone.. And there are plenty out here who aren't quite in agreeable..
> 
> He said we are working on it.. But a Sunday afternoon here is not the day to be trying..


Ha, that's normally me. Although the last few weeks we've cracked a lot of it, I find that waving hot dog sausages or making sure Roo has a stick means he ignores all other dogs!

Although at the beach yesterday he decided to ignore this and go and play with a staff anyway before I had time to grab him. But to be fair the staff came to us as well and they kind of met half way.

Spend 10 minutes the three of them hooning round like mentalists.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Ha, that's normally me. Although the last few weeks we've cracked a lot of it, I find that waving hot dog sausages or making sure Roo has a stick means he ignores all other dogs!
> 
> Although at the beach yesterday he decided to ignore this and go and play with a staff anyway before I had time to grab him. But to be fair the staff came to us as well and they kind of met half way.
> 
> Spend 10 minutes the three of them hooning round like mentalists.


do you think dogs recognise other breeds? I have noticed that Bridge and Bobby if they see a grey hound they sometimes go to greet until I recall.. I find myself saying it isnt Aunty Chatter, Bridge lived with Aunty chatter for 6 months.. And loves her and I take Bobby to visit my mum quite a bit..


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> do you think dogs recognise other breeds? I have noticed that Bridge and Bobby if they see a grey hound they sometimes go to greet until I recall.. I find myself saying it isnt Aunty Chatter, Bridge lived with Aunty chatter for 6 months.. And loves her and I take Bobby to visit my mum quite a bit..


Deffo! Roo gets sooooo excited when he sees a viszla. I'm like "its not Fiddy..." but then we get a bit closer and it normally is!! :tongue_smilie:And he has an obsession with springer spaniels, for some really strange reason. I have no idea why. I'm just really please the Evil Pug hasn't given him an issue with other pugs that we've met, but they've been few and far between.

Harvey is just a bit dense I think, bless him! I don't think he realises much!!


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I haven't read this whole thread but I love how, even those of us who experience the hurt that results from negative stereotyping, can so readily exchange one for another when it's not our dogs that are the ones being victimised.


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Did I say that staffies and akitas should be banned? I said that aggressive traits shouldn't be bred into the breed, so well tempered akitas and staffies should be bred. Basically all good breeders who breed good temperaments into their breeds, carry on. But the bad breeders who breed dogs with questionable temperaments that are _supposed _to be breed traits, shouldn't be breeding.


Have you ever actually owned an Akita or a staffie????? Proably not so what gives you the right to comment????

My Akita is a REASCUE she was dog aggresvie and People aggresive however with the right amount of love training and understanding she is turning into a wonderful dog.

There is still a purpose for Guard dogs. I work both my Akita and My Dobe in My pet shop as my guard dogs. They are both freindly and lovely animals. However if there is a threat they guard me and keep me safe.... A properly controlled dog is an amazing thing!!!

Its not the breed but the owners. To be honest I'M SICK of rat dogs... and silly little dog owners who think its ok to let there dogs off the lead and bite my dogs. My Akita having been bit several times off these horrible exuse of a dog. Simply sits on them. Holly has never bit another dog! Considering her history I think it is pretty amazing.

My "BIG BAD" Akita has an amazing personality. While in the park someones stupid brat chile decided to jump on holly and shove her in a head lock. While she was on the lead. The child was 3.. Holly just stood there and wagged her tail. Both my husnband and me were thrilled!

So please do get some experience with the breed before you comment!!!

Its not the breed but the stupid owners.. You need to be a certain type of person to own certain dogs. Dobes and Akitas requier strong owners period. They also requier alot of time. They are not breeds i'd own if I couldn't spend alot of time with them!!

I personally think all rat dogs should be muzzled!!! How does that feel???


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Don't reputable breeders do that already? How are you going to get that message through to puppy farmers and byb types, who don't even know about the breed's temperament, they just know it is a popular breed so they can make money out of it.
> 
> Stop the byb and puppy farmers and you will stop the temperament problems.


To be honest some of the Kennel club breeders need to be stopped as well.... I've seen some shocking exampes of the Kennel club breeders.. .the state they have kept their animals in!!!! The over breeding and then the damage done to the body to get the breed to KC standard?!?!

Stig my Dobe came from a BYB of sorts. They waited until there bitch was 3 years old to breed her. Have bred her once as they wanted a puppy from her.

She was beautiful, stunning and in amazing condition. The puppies were lavished with love and good quality food.... Stig is the most laid back chilled out dude ever!!!

I will Stud stig once in a few years as I want one of his babies. I want my dobes to always decend from my baby. This is providing that he passes his health checks!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Why is there a need for a protection breed? And why shouldn't every dog of every breed see strangers the same as their family, ie very friendly to them?


What a Stupid question?!?!??!?!? So you think a police dog should wag it's tale and lick the criminal..... have a litte role over and have a belly scratch?!?!?
:nono::nono::nono:

Protection dogs are there for a purpose to protect you and your home. Or in my case they come to work with me and are fab for when i have to lock my shop up at night.

Most people are put off by the look of a large (and Stig is big for breed) Dobe and a 50KG Akita pup (holly only being 18 months).

If they wanted to push it they'd get bit. But only if the situation warranted it. My dogs know that once the till is cashed up were on red Alert till were in the van and on our way home!

I can still invite people into the shop and they will be fine. But thats the key they have to be invited....

Protection dogs when properly trained are incredibly valuable. My dogs could mean the difference between me getting hurt and not!!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Why is there a need for a protection breed? And why shouldn't every dog of every breed see strangers the same as their family, ie very friendly to them?


Unless your working your dog as a Gun dog I don't think you should own a gun dog breed....

How does that make you feel??????


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> I haven't read this whole thread but I love how, even those of us who experience the hurt that results from negative stereotyping, can so readily exchange one for another when it's not our dogs that are the ones being victimised.


That's us humans I suppose..........funny how we expect our dogs to react consistently just because we train them to but can't do it ourselves :


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Also to clarify a Rat dog is anything smaller then Holly that feels the need to run up to her and bite her!!! 

Classic example we were in the park Holly was off lead and so was the only other dog in the park a yorkie. Holly strolled up to it to sniff and say hello. 

All nicely. The owner stood near his dog saying to holly "he'll bite you he'll bite you don't sniff him". 

Making no move to put his dog on a lead of even get his dog. I was getting closer heard him and went to get holly. 

Before I could get to her the yorkie clamped onto her nose. Causeing blood. So holly Sat on it. Fair play to Holly. 

If someone slapped me i'm not sure i'd be so restrained as to only sit on them... 

After she sat on the dog and got her point across she came back to me for cuddles. As she'd been hurt!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I have saved the pic of that pup to e mail to local mp's etc as I think it's about time owners of bull breeds were made to leash their dogs just like the rest of us do. Perhaps if they open their e mails and see a pic like that staring at them they may do something. It's no good doing it after the event and no good waiting until it's a child.
> IMO there should be a law that these breeds at least should always be on lead - I don't care how good they are. This kind of dog on dog attack is becomming all too familiar!


I've met some horrible Huskies/ Mal's in the park. Who set on my freinds norfol terrier becasue they wanted his stick.... So by your logic they should all be put on a lead? Becasue they obviously had dog aggrestion issues?!?!?

Really what you should be saying is that all owners who have dogs with a dodgy tempermeant should keep their dogs on the lead.

It comes back to bad owners not bad breeds!

It's horrible and tragic for the owners of that puppy to have gone through that but you can't tar every dog from the same breed with the same brush!

My dobe and Akitas best freind is a JRT x Norfolk terrier they adore him! Hourse n hounds Roo n harvey are dinky and they are lovely and play well with mine. They are by no stretch of the imagination Rat dogs! However that is like me saying all JRT should be on a lead because they tend to be rat dogs. Especially the ones in the park.... that alot of the pappilions are little gits... muzzle them....

The owner should be banned from having a dog for definate. All dog aggresive dogs should be muzzled to mini dmage.and should be on leads..

But think about the flip side... To socilaise Holly I had to let her off the lead in controlled enviroments with sleceted dogs. To get her to get over her issues. Now she's a million times better!

How would you feel If I started saying that all Mals were evil and eat new born babies for breakfast? Infact I think they should be muzzled and kept on a lead and kept out of society? You wouldn't. So please do be a little respectful to Bull type owners on here. The majority of Bull type dogs are lovely!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Even if the little Yorkie barked at the Staffy, that is no excuse for the dog ripping it to pieces, basically. A Staff is "pushed" into defending itself by a toy breed! If these idiot owners cannot control THEIR MURDERING DOGS, they should be on a lead WHATEVER THE BREED!!!!
> 
> These kind of discussions really get my goat to be honest. It's always the little ones that get blamed for initiating the attack, or in the case where a friendly puppy goes up to the aggressive dog ".....well, it invaded the other dog's space...."
> 
> ...


If a Chi , JRT or other small breed bites a dog .... oh well no botehr. A bigger dog looks at a littel dog wrong.... Oh no its a baby killer!!

The local dog warden is obsessed with big dogs only... So Having this great stigma... my dogs have to be the best behaved can't put a paw wrong... however in regards to the rat dogs she's not arsed!

One of my custoemers owns a doug de Bourdeux that i've know since he was ickle... the most submissive dog going... however one of the rat dog owners doesn't like it so called the dog warden with lies. The dog warden rushed round to issue warning etc.... I called about a rat dog oh well not bothered! 
To be honest I think that Both large and small breeds have different stigmas.

However If my dogs do anything wrong I could face haveing them PTS Little rat dogs on the park don't have the same threat!

And to clarify Rat dogs is my name for little dogs that like to attack holly with ignorant oweners who stand there and watch. Little dogs that behave are not rat dogs!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I totally agree that WHATEVER THE BREED, as I keep saying here, all dogs that are not predictable (and lets be honest, many are unpredictable) should be kept on leads.
> 
> Big difference between a Chihuahua attacking another dog (which is totally unacceptable) and a Staffy, is that the Chihuahua could maybe inflict a nasty bite or two - the Staffy (or larger, powerful breed) could kill the dog and attack it's owner if he tried to help his dog. A Chihuahua, with one swift toe up the backside, from the victims owner, would go flying across the field. A Staffy (or whatever) would likely take exception to getting a boot up the rear and the victims owner would likely end up at A & E needing stitches, or more. It's all about risk assessment and whether people like to admit it or not; it's certainly more risky to the public to let a Staffy off-lead as opposed to a Chihuahua or Yorkshire Terrier Surely, nobody of sane mind can argue with that; though I bet they will


So because my Akita is 50Kg and could rip a throat out.. I should keep her on a lead incase a little dog is unpredicatble and might come and bite her and not enjoy being sat on. So said littel dog owner might kick holly and get bit? 
So my dogs enjoyment has to be hindered becasue of someone elses dog???


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> Little dogs that behave are not rat dogs!


Ha! I was about to say you try muzzling Roo as he looks at you with those eyes.He normally looks forward to you coming as you're always armed with tasty treats. Not so sure he'd like you as much if you came armed with a muzzle!!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Ha! I was about to say you try muzzling Roo as he looks at you with those eyes.He normally looks forward to you coming as you're always armed with tasty treats. Not so sure he'd like you as much if you came armed with a muzzle!!


Roo n Harvey are proper dogs... even if they are diddy they are REAL dogs not these crappy little baby substitude things that I blame ppl like paris hilton for!!!!

A dog does not need to be carried around in your handbag!!Let it friggin walk!!!


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> Roo n Harvey are proper dogs... even if they are diddy they are REAL dogs not these crappy little baby substitude things that I blame ppl like paris hilton for!!!!
> 
> A dog does not need to be carried around in your handbag!!Let it friggin walk!!!


I see this thread being closed in the near future.

You need to calm down.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Stephen&Dogs said:


> I see this thread being closed in the near future.
> 
> You need to calm down.


It's a valid point though, to be fair!

Pees me off when i see people carrying their dog about, for no reason other than they want to!?

Why get one in the first place, they are not toys!?


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> It's a valid point though, to be fair!
> 
> Pees me off when i see people carrying their dog about, for no reason other than they want to!?
> 
> Why get one in the first place, they are not toys!?


Well we all treat our dog's differently.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Stephen&Dogs said:


> Well we all treat our dog's differently.


There's treating them differently and then treating them like accessories though, that's certainly what I'm getting at.

No wonder so many of them end up with bad manners is it?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

TBH I cannot believe that the Mods on this Forum are allowing what they are. This thread is disgraceful and is making this Forum look REALLY bad!


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> TBH I cannot believe that the Mods on this Forum are allowing what they are. This thread is disgraceful and is making this Forum look REALLY bad!


Haha, Just what i was thinking 



Horse and Hound said:


> There's treating them differently and then treating them like accessories though, that's certainly what I'm getting at.
> 
> No wonder so many of them end up with bad manners is it?


I'm sure that people like parris hilton, Etc. Walk & Feed their dog's.

Anyway i have no intention of causing a row so i shall retreat from this thread.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

My little staffy i lost just over a year ago was most laid back friendliest dog i ever owned was my Autistic sons best friend  i met guy 1 day at park with big black lab grabbed it put it on lead saying come that will eat you meaning my staffy  his dog was enormous


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## michaelasi (Oct 29, 2009)

well boys and girls now this is a long thread ...
well I do keep my girl and boy on lead (would love to let them run a bit but some people would point on me My DOGS RUN RIOT ON STREETS ) 

Yes they r akita , yes they can be very protective one to another if some other dogs do challenge them and nudge them . Yes they friendly with small dogs and big ones . 

Thats it just wanted to say this ... just chill out guys , take some nice sun shine stop arguing .


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> TBH I cannot believe that the Mods on this Forum are allowing what they are. This thread is disgraceful and is making this Forum look REALLY bad!


In what way? I personally think that people have the right to defend their dogs if they so wish. Not being funny, but I think it is disgusting the level of predjudice towards certain breeds on this thread. And coming from a forum of so called dog lovers?!



Stephen&Dogs said:


> I'm sure that people like parris hilton, Etc. Walk & Feed their dog's.
> 
> Anyway i have no intention of causing a row so i shall retreat from this thread.


I'm not denying that, but picking it up, dressing it up and treating it like a doll isn't what I personally think a dog should be doing? Or sweeping it up off the floor every time another dog comes near? Or letting it growl and snap at someone whilst in your arms is not acceptable.



new westie owner said:


> My little staffy i lost just over a year ago was most laid back friendliest dog i ever owned was my Autistic sons best friend  i met guy 1 day at park with big black lab grabbed it put it on lead saying come that will eat you meaning my staffy  his dog was enormous


The most dog bites statistically have occured from labs biting people as people have the assumption that because they are labs they are soft, can be poked and prodded and won't snap at you. It's nonsense, but none of these are jumped on and reported in the Daily Fail are they?!

A dog is a dog and should be respected as such, regardless of breed and I am a firm believer of what you put into a dog you get back. You will get the odd balls, in any breed, but they are few and far between.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

It's such a terrible shame that we can't protect and support one another against prejudice and discrimination regardless of what breed/type we all own. I take the dogs and their owners as they come, at face value. 

The principle of insulting/generalising a staffy/owner is no different to doing the same thing to a toy breed/owner and there is rather a lot of this going on in this thread.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> in my experience of walking I notice the people with the bigger dogs do seem to have more control and an understanding of respect to other walkers..
> 
> That statement is purely based on my experience..


This has been my experience too - not only when out walking my dogs, but also at dog shows.

At Champ Shows the Pastoral and Working Groups are not often on the same day as the Toy Group, but on the odd few occasions they are, or if we go to an open show like we did this weekend, it can be a real eye opener. It is not unusual for there two be two or three tiny dogs in a cage (I'm not talking about any particular toy breed here) who hurl themselves at the cage, yapping like mad, trying to get to any dog walking past. In a lot of cases the owners admonish them, but also in a lot of cases the owners either ignore what is happening, or come out with some inane expression like, "Oooh, he thinks he's a big doggy doesn't he?"

And in nearly every case the bigger dog walking past either ignores them or looks at them with astonishment as if to say, "What *are *they yapping at?"

Which dogs are the better trained? If medium or large dogs behaved in that way, hurling themselves at every dog passing by, they'd be thrown out of the showground, and rightly so.

Now, I know that not all toy dogs, or owners of toy dogs, behave in this way, any more than all staffies/rotties/akitas/GSDs/bull breeds are vicious and owned by uncaring chavs. I know many wonderful toy dogs, and many caring, responsible toy-dog owners. But I see this kind of behaviour often enough from toy breeds and their owners to wonder whether or not the toy breed was actually the instigator of some of the awful incidents that have happened.

After all, in many cases all we have to go on is the media - and after PDE we all know just how misleading the media can be, how truth and facts can become irrelevant in the effort to make shocking headlines that sell newspapers etc.

Don't believe all you are spoon-fed by the Daily Wail and suchlike. Go by the true facts. And the true facts are that ANY breed can be dangerous if mistreated and not socialised properly, whatever it's size or shape.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> In what way? I personally think that people have the right to defend their dogs if they so wish. Not being funny, but I think it is disgusting the level of predjudice towards certain breeds on this thread. And coming from a forum of so called dog lovers?!.


I agree. Most of the damaging talk is towards small breed dogs? Have a look back. Many, many posts of people making small breeds look like ankle biting, aggressive, yapping little "rats" - I think that is disgusting! Very damaging to small breeds. But that's allowed is it???? Very one sided and hypocritical this thread! Quite astounding to those that haven't got their heads up their rears.

Anyway, my account is about to be deleted, well, I hope, I've asked enough times but I think maybe the Mods are all on holiday..... going by what is being allowed here:nono:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> It's such a terrible shame that we can't protect and support one another against prejudice and discrimination regardless of what breed/type we all own. I take the dogs and their owners as they come, at face value.
> 
> The principle of insulting/generalising a staffy/owner is no different to doing the same thing to a toy breed/owner and there is rather a lot of this going on in this thread.


Dogs are dogs. And like people not one dog is going to be the same as another, which is why I love them so much. Granted, there are certain dogs I wouldn't have myself, for various reasons, and like wise there are certain idiotic owners that manage to make themselves, and their dogs, live up to the stereotype.

But on the whole, I've been lucky. Now I've only had 2 incidents with my dogs where they've ended up hurt after the involvement of another dog. I'd like to keep it that way. I don't sit here though and say that all chis, all yorkies or all pugs should be muzzled though, because of it, which is the kind of stupid suggestion some are making about bull type breeds!?

If you dog is dog aggressive, regardless of size it should be muzzled or on a lead to avoid the kinds of confrontations we're reading about. If not, and the dog is happy to play, ignore or whatever then why should it be?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I agree. Most of the damaging talk is towards small breed dogs? Have a look back. Many, many posts of people making small breeds look like ankle biting, aggressive, yapping little "rats" - I think that is disgusting! Very damaging to small breeds. But that's allowed is it???? Very one sided and hypocritical this thread! Quite astounding to those that haven't got their heads up their rears.
> 
> Anyway, my account is about to be deleted, well, I hope, I've asked enough times but I think maybe the Mods are all on holiday..... going by what is being allowed here:nono:


Both my dogs have been injured by small breeds, I've never had one of them hurt by a bigger dog. That's true. Sorry if you feel I've been damaging to small breeds, bearing in mind my Roo is a small dog himself! On the plus side we've met some other lovely smaller dogs.

If people are saying that my "dangerous" bull breed should be muzzled, then so should your so called "ankle biter..."  It's pathetic either way you look at it. Why should a dog be muzzled just because it could hurt someone or something?! If that is the case EVERY DOG ON THE PLANET should be muzzled.

ANY DOG, if it is dog/human agressive should be on a lead or muzzled. End of. Regardless of size or breed. Same way that any bad behaviour in dogs shouldn't be tolerated, regardless of size or breed.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> Many, many posts of people making small breeds look like ankle biting, aggressive, yapping little "rats" - I think that is disgusting! Very damaging to small breeds. But that's allowed is it???? Very one sided and hypocritical this thread! Quite astounding to those that haven't got their heads up their rears.
> 
> Anyway, my account is about to be deleted, well, I hope, I've asked enough times but I think maybe the Mods are all on holiday..... going by what is being allowed here:nono:


You have posted loud and long about your opinions and people have read and responded to your opinions - please have the decency to allow others to post their own opinions without throwing your toys out of the pram because they don't agree with you.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> You have posted loud and long about your opinions and people have read and responded to your opinions - please have the decency to allow others to post their own opinions without throwing your toys out of the pram because they don't agree with you.


Spellweaver, just out of interest, I've read most of the posts on here that I could, given that its a long thread, but as your breeds are large, do you get the same kind of hysteria tagged to them as breeds like staffs do?

Reason I'm wondering is that surely if a large dog, like yours or a Saint, attacked that would do as much damage as a staff, if not more? Or would it not? I just wonder why staffs have such a hysteria attached when there are bigger, stronger dogs?

Mind you, am answering my question myself as I type. All about the idiot owners and the press I think.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> Both my dogs have been injured by small breeds, I've never had one of them hurt by a bigger dog. That's true. Sorry if you feel I've been damaging to small breeds, bearing in mind my Roo is a small dog himself! On the plus side we've met some other lovely smaller dogs.
> 
> If people are saying that my "dangerous" bull breed should be muzzled, then so should your so called "ankle biter..."  It's pathetic either way you look at it. Why should a dog be muzzled just because it could hurt someone or something?! If that is the case EVERY DOG ON THE PLANET should be muzzled.
> 
> ANY DOG, if it is dog/human agressive should be on a lead or muzzled. End of. Regardless of size or breed. Same way that any bad behaviour in dogs shouldn't be tolerated, regardless of size or breed.


I couldn't care less if you think my ankle biter should be muzzled (mine are always on leads anyway - due to irresponsible owners that allow their dogs off-lead with no recall). as you are just stereo-typing (something you're against, apparently). Which is typical. Nobody has called Staffs on this thread "Evil Dogs" or anything else, yet this constant need for calling small breeds ankle biters, rats, yappers, well, you name it, the "term" has been used. It's ridiculous!

For your information (not that I'm going to get into debate again because it's a total waste of time here) I don't believe I ever said anything about certain breeds being muzzled


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I agree. Most of the damaging talk is towards small breed dogs? Have a look back. Many, many posts of people making small breeds look like ankle biting, aggressive, yapping little "rats" - I think that is disgusting! Very damaging to small breeds. But that's allowed is it???? Very one sided and hypocritical this thread! Quite astounding to those that haven't got their heads up their rears.
> 
> Anyway, my account is about to be deleted, well, I hope, I've asked enough times but I think maybe the Mods are all on holiday..... going by what is being allowed here:nono:


Are you serious why are you leaving


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## xxbailliexx (May 17, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I agree. Most of the damaging talk is towards small breed dogs? Have a look back. Many, many posts of people making small breeds look like ankle biting, aggressive, yapping little "rats" - I think that is disgusting! Very damaging to small breeds. But that's allowed is it???? Very one sided and hypocritical this thread! Quite astounding to those that haven't got their heads up their rears.
> 
> Anyway, my account is about to be deleted, well, I hope, I've asked enough times but I think maybe the Mods are all on holiday..... going by what is being allowed here:nono:


I have called small dogs yappy, yes, as have i also said that that i reported a staffy last week as it attacked my 7 year old daughter, and thats from someone who owns a staffy, hense the reason i think dogs should be assessed individually.

its not nice to hear dogs being called names and such no matter what their breed but it also is'nt nice for us bull breed owners or larger breed owners who have enough bad press because of idiot owners to be told our dogs should be muzzled and on lead ALL the time and be expected to just take the complete bashing our dogs are getting on this thread.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

OK so once again the mods are being 'knocked' for allowing what is a debate to go on, tbh I havent seen any 'real' flaming done and all I have read is what people think and their opinion - I have one that I pick up and carry on times but because I want to, but she can also run with the bigger dogs that is my choice ! havent read the whole thread just the ones that a member keeps reporting and I havent seen that much on here that deems a mod stepping in and closing it - most members like the fact that the forum isnt over-moderated.

Keep it on track and no personal flaming if you dont like take a step back and dont read


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I couldn't care less if you think my ankle biter should be muzzled (mine are always on leads anyway - due to irresponsible owners that allow their dogs off-lead with no recall). as you are just stereo-typing (something you're against, apparently ). Which is typical. Nobody has called Staffs on this thread "Evil Dogs" or anything else, yet this constant need for calling small breeds ankle biters, rats, yappers, well, you name it, the "term" has been used. It's ridiculous!





Chihuahua Angels said:


> For your information (not that I'm going to get into debate again because it's a total waste of time here) I don't believe I ever said anything about certain breeds being muzzled


I don't think your "ankle biter" should be muzzled, far from it. If you read my post I've not once advocated that, nor have I said that they are all the same and all act like that, in fact thank fully the small dogs we do meet are normally quite playful, happy tempered little things. So I'm not stereotyping at all, I don't agree with it. If you re-read my posts properly perhaps you'll get that.

There's always the odd one though that spoils it, and that's the same for any breed so I fail to see exactly where you're getting that I'm generalising about small breeds from. I'm far from it, I hate my Roo being termed as a yappy, terrier as he's a wonderful dog. I've made sure of that.

As for the rest of your reply, there have been plenty of posts implying , and one directly saying, that staff and bull breeds should all be muzzled, as they can cause more damage to another dog, than another dog can to them, I never said you said it, but it has been said. For me that is ludicrous, and the point I was making is that if they are to be muzzled so should any other type or breed of dog. 

My Doodles was bitten on Saturday, by a chi x yorkie, and I've reported it to the police, but you can be certain though if he had bitten it back, he would have been in the wrong and they'd have been knocking on my door looking for my evil, killer type dog.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

I think the people who defended staffys by insulting smaller dogs have really damaged their (and my!) point. It is very infuriating when the people who were saying "staffys need to be on a lead all the time" are now able to act righteous and "like" comments saying how breediest people are against the smaller breeds. 

An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog.

Lets stop with the stereotyping of breeds on both sides.


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> I think the people who defended staffys by insulting smaller dogs have really damaged their (and my!) point. It is very infuriating when the people who were saying "staffys need to be on a lead all the time" are now able to act righteous and "like" comments saying how breediest people are against the smaller breeds.
> 
> An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog.
> 
> Lets stop with the stereotyping of breeds on both sides.


THis is the thing and what I've been saying all along, so I don't see how people can be directing this at me, considering I have a small dog myself?!

All I pointed out was how absurd it is to expect one breed of dog to be muzzled and not another one? Maybe I didn't put my point across well.


----------



## Terrier Fan (Oct 20, 2008)

People have the right to defend their breed and IMO there is nothing worse than stereotyping and putting down a breed you don't own 

I have JRT's and Yorkies.
My Yorkie is only 1.9kg, he walks everywhere and does everything my others do. He is happy to meet any dog regardless of how big they are, but you have to be careful as he could easily get hurt.

I have been asked to put him back on his lead before because an owner was worried that her dog may mistake him for a prey animal 

I have had many a run in with different breeds of dog, do i then have a bad view of that breed, no i don't because i can't judge them because of one dogs behaviour.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Myfynwy said:


> I think the people who defended staffys by insulting smaller dogs have really damaged their (and my!) point. It is very infuriating when the people who were saying "staffys need to be on a lead all the time" are now able to act righteous and "like" comments saying how breediest people are against the smaller breeds.
> 
> An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog.
> 
> Lets stop with the stereotyping of breeds on both sides.


Hear! Hear!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Spellweaver, just out of interest, I've read most of the posts on here that I could, given that its a long thread, but as your breeds are large, do you get the same kind of hysteria tagged to them as breeds like staffs do?
> 
> Reason I'm wondering is that surely if a large dog, like yours or a Saint, attacked that would do as much damage as a staff, if not more? Or would it not? I just wonder why staffs have such a hysteria attached when there are bigger, stronger dogs?
> 
> Mind you, am answering my question myself as I type. All about the idiot owners and the press I think.


Sadly hun, I think you have answered your own question. (sadly for the bull-breeds, I mean). If a bergie attacked I'm sure they would do much more damage than a staffie - much bigger mouth, much bigger teeth. But because they look nothing like the bull breeds the media has whipped gullible people into a frenzy of hate over, no-one views them with the slightest fear or suspicion.

Even when they bark - and being a guarding breed, they bark warnings quite often (over really important things such as a blade of greass moving  ) - all people remark upon is the loudness of the bark.

Heh heh - having said all that, despite their size they are really laid-back and people we meet are much more likely to be nipped by one of our border collies than bitten by one of our bergies.  However, all it would need would be for the media to start portraying them as devil dogs, and then according to some people on here we would have to muzzle them every time we took them out walking ............


----------



## xxbailliexx (May 17, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog.


this is my point aswell 

i kind of did and did'nt call small dogs yappy (if you know what i mean ), but what i did say was when one comes running off lead up to my dog yapping and snapping at her and she nips back in defence while she's on lead, with the small dogs owner saying oh she/he is a big dog in a small dogs body i'm not going to muzzle my dog because of that. ANY dog that has any aggression wether they be staffies or a tiny yorkie should be on lead and under control whilst there are other dogs about same if its another staffy or rottie etc

same as the numpty who's staffy had a go at my daughter and refuses to put her on a lead because she was just playing!! my daughter is 7 and knows not all staffies are going to go for her (just aswell as we'd have a problem due to owning one ourselves) but she is terrified of that one now and i'll keep reporting it untill the woman has it under control.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Sadly hun, I think you have answered your own question. (sadly for the bull-breeds, I mean). If a bergie attacked I'm sure they would do much more damage than a staffie - much bigger mouth, much bigger teeth. But because they look nothing like the bull breeds the media has whipped gullible people into a frenzy of hate over, no-one views them with the slightest fear or suspicion.
> 
> Even when they bark - and being a guarding breed, they bark warnings quite often (over really important things such as a blade of greass moving  ) - all people remark upon is the loudness of the bark.
> 
> Heh heh - having said all that, despite their size they are really laid-back and people we meet are much more likely to be nipped by one of our border collies than bitten by one of our bergies.  However, all it would need would be for the media to start portraying them as devil dogs, and then according to some people on here we would have to muzzle them every time we took them out walking ............


Yeah, I think I did answer my own question, I kinda realised that as I asked!

I think its a valid point though, why should such a breed of dog be potrayed in such a horrible way, when there are others out there capable of doing a much more worse job injuring a dog? Just goes to prove a point I suppose.

Most dogs I come across to be fair, are pretty laid back. I think I must walk in a really good area to be fair as I've only ever had 2 incidents where mine have been bitten. Both incidents have left me fuming because of the reaction of the owners, more recently the one on Saturday saying "ooh, he was just frightened" and then proceeded to have a go at me for prizing her dogs mouth open!

Sorry, he bloody wasn't. He went for my dog from behind, when my dog had walked past! When I pointed this out to her, she basically said "ooh, well he's only a pup, he'll be fine. Billy's only a small dog, no harm done, hope you havn't hurt his mouth..."

To be fair, I hope I havn't hurt the dog, dogs bite, it happens, but the sheer attitude she had was disgusting. I was actually rendered speechless for the first time ever. Until I got home then I wanted to go out and find her!

Stupid owners, not stupid dogs. Does my tree in.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I welcome the chance for debates - even heated ones - to be allowed to continue - it's sad when someone feels the need to leave just because they are having to defend their corner - well welcome to the world of Rott ownership - I'm forever having to defend my breed but I wont do it by slagging off another breed - what is one persons idea of heaven is another persons idea of hell - I was owned by a JRT before I got my Rotts so big or small makes no difference to me - the love you get back from ANY dog is unconditional - perhaps we could learn something from these hairy, stinky, **** machines!!!!


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

I still stand by that I'm sick of Rat dogs in my area. 

By the term rat dog I mean the horrible little things that are not controlled and are allowed to bite and attack my babies just becasue they are big! 

I have nearly hit said owners of said rat dogs on several occasitions, 

Having said that I do not think that all littel dogs are rat dogs. There are many that i have met who are lovely. My Akita bitch has a very soft side for little men.... Were as my Dobe loves BIG woma  

I have to admit the most problems we have had have been with little rat dogs. Mainly because the owners think there just tooo cute and aaawww my JRT wants to rip your dogs throat out but AAAWWW bless aint he cute! 

My dogs best friend is actually a norfolk terrier cross JRT and he's beautiful I love him. Not all little dogs are savages and not all big dogs are baby killers! Im full aware of not typing a breed. 

Just in my area I have more Rat dog owners then well mannered littel dog owners! 

The carrying the dog thing buggs me as I had a customer who couldnt let fido walk coz he's so ickle! Well fidos nails crew and made him unable to walk as they twisted his toes. As he didn't get to wear them down. N the Barbie wanna be customer just didn't want fido to walk!!! 

I think dogs should be kept for breed type. I'm sick of collie owners thinking they can make a collie into a lap dog!! Deer wrong breed! Do your research! Which is what I did. Two beautiful Guard dogs who are good with kids! All boxes in my lifestyle ticked! = two happy poochies! 

my dogs do get spoiled but they know there place!!! So they are happy!


----------



## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Stephen&Dogs said:


> I see this thread being closed in the near future.
> 
> You need to calm down.


I firmly beleive dogs should be treated as dogs! treating them as ickle babies causes all sorts of problems which can manifest! Trust me I see it all the time!

Were as a happy Dog knows it place and is health and happy. Living a fulfilled life!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Oh it's threads like these that make me glad i avoid the vast majority of a human race.


In my limited experience, i find SBT's game rather than aggressive. Where many dogs would take a warning for what it is and back off, some SBT's will just be spurred on. Some (one of mine included) just wont take no for an answer. This is where owner management and training comes in.

Incidently, my "game" boy spent about 20 mins in the vets surgery this morning, having his head humped and his ears nibbled by an over amorous JRT. Not once did he show a hint of aggression.

Ive always said that far too many SBT owners believe the hype and myths, accept them as fact, and do nothing to prevent them. 

Lack of socialisation, lack of training, lack of exercise = a problem dog in any breed.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Incidently, my "game" boy spent about 20 mins in the vets surgery this morning, having his head humped and his ears nibbled by an over amorous JRT. Not once did he show a hint of aggression.


Rupert uses Harvey as a climbing frame, or pillow. Harvey rolls over and lets him do it.

Harvey steps on Roo, or what not when they are on the couch together, Roo get arsey! Rat boy is deffo top dog! Harvey is a wimp. He rolls over at the first sign of anything and gives in. 

Rather have him like this though, less chance of anyone screaming "killer dog" at him this way.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I still stand by that I'm sick of Rat dogs in my area.
> 
> By the term rat dog I mean the horrible little things that are not controlled and are allowed to bite and attack my babies just becasue they are big!
> 
> ...


What a sad and pathetic post .... "rat dog owners" there would be an uproar here if I referred to Staffy owners as "attack dog owners" or similiar :nono:


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

stigDarley said:


> I still stand by that I'm sick of Rat dogs in my area.


On a completely separate note and on behalf of my rats (not rat dogs, I mean literally rats) I wish people wouldn't use there species as an insult! They are loving and highly intelligent soppy things!

Ahem - but that's another discussion!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> On a completely separate note and on behalf of my rats (not rat dogs, I mean literally rats) I wish people wouldn't use there species as an insult! They are loving and highly intelligent soppy things!


As are the Toy breeds :001_wub:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> What a sad and pathetic post .... "rat dog owners" there would be an uproar here if I referred to Staffy owners as "attack dog owners" or similiar :nono:


As both a rat dog owner, and a staff owner, you've insulted me, more with the following posts you've made than if you had come out and said the above out right.



Amethyst said:


> Nope, do not want them anywhere near as I said, if on leader and under control, fine, *otherwise my flesh crawls* when I see them approach,


I find it a sad and pathetic comment to make, quite frankly.



Amethyst said:


> As are the Toy breeds :001_wub:


As is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> As both a rat dog owner, and a staff owner, you've insulted me, more with the following posts you've made than if you had come out and said the above out right.


Such is life


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> As are the Toy breeds :001_wub:


Yes  and...



Horse and Hound said:


> As is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Such is life


Well in that case stop complaining about what people are saying regarding you/your dog then...just a thought.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Well in that case stop complaining about what people are saying regarding you/your dog then...just a thought.


No, not my thing


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I think it's time to calm down a little here please.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> No, not my thing


So being a hypocrite is then?

Well done!! 



lymorelynn said:


> I think it's time to calm down a little here please.


Merely trying to understand why its ok for someone to insult me, my breed, but when someone else does it regarding theirs its not...

Smacks of double standards if you ask me and the response quoted above sums it all up!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> I think it's time to calm down a little here please.


I agree


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> So being a hypocrite is then?
> 
> Well done!!
> 
> ...


Which is why I have asked *everyone* to calm down. I'm not singling anyone out here. Insulting others is not on - no matter who it is from or aimed at. Each to their own where dogs are concerned without any need for the aggression that's coming through on the whole of this thread.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Each to their own where dogs are concerned without any need for the aggression that's coming through on the whole of this thread.


Perhaps you should re-name the thread aggressive dog owner traits, then.



I apologise if I seem fired up but I genuinely am livid, that someone saying staffs make their flesh crawl, seems to think its ok, but then gets on their high horse about their breed of dog being called a rat.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Perhaps you should re-name the thread aggressive dog owner traits, then.


Now there's a thought, or maybe another thread *gulp* :eek6:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Breed reputations (good and bad) are caused by people, not dogs. They are self fulfilling prophecies.

Are some small dogs yappy and nipping? Yes. Why? Because they know no different. Their behaviour is allowed to continue, often because the owner believes it to be a breed trait and does nothing to modify or control it. 

Are some breeds dog aggressive? Yes. Why? Because they are owned by people who dont take steps to socialise them and teach them how to behave and interact with other dogs. 


If a dog isnt taught right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, then they'll just do what feels right to them.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Mods, is there an ignore feature on this forum?

Perhaps if I can't see stupid, ill informed posts, I won't feel so angry and the need to comment. 

And if there is, does it also work on posts that are quoted?


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## michaelasi (Oct 29, 2009)

*How do you catch a runaway dog ?*
Hide behind a tree and make a noise like a bone !

*What dog loves to take bubble baths ?*
A shampoodle !

*What kind of dog does a vampire prefer ?*
Any kind of bloodhound !

*What dogs are best for sending telegrams ?*
Wire haired terriers !!

*What do you call a happy Lassie ?*
A jolly collie !

*What do you call a nutty dog in Australia ?*
A dingo-ling !

*What kind of dog sniffs out new flowers ?*
A bud hound !

*Why didn't the dog speak to his foot ?*
Because it's not polite to talk back to your paw !

*What is the dogs favourite city ?*
New Yorkie !

*Who is the dogs favourite comedian ?*
Growlcho Marx !


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Breed reputations (good and bad) are caused by people, not dogs. They are self fulfilling prophecies.


I would agree with the rest of your post, but not this part


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Mods, is there an ignore feature on this forum?
> 
> Perhaps if I can't see stupid, ill informed posts, I won't feel so angry and the need to comment.
> 
> And if there is, does it also work on posts that are quoted?


yes there is an ignore button but no it wil still show quoted posts by a different poster...Jill


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## stigDarley (Jan 2, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> What a sad and pathetic post .... "rat dog owners" there would be an uproar here if I referred to Staffy owners as "attack dog owners" or similiar :nono:


Dont read it Simples! 

"rat dog is a term" a nickname I use to describe horrible little babies substitudes! What shall i call them instead Toy dog menaces?

If you bothered to read the post rather then skim it for the words you don't like. It said not all small dogs are menaces. that we know love and play with some lovely examples who would make any owner proud!

However My Area i'll repeat it again MY AREA is infested with stupid baby substitude owners and the subsquent menaces to society. Who think its ok to chew on my dog and then get upset when she sits on them... Doesnt bote them back. Simply sits on them.... Just because she's an Akita. I wouldn't be allowed to get away with that!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> yes there is an ignore button but no it wil still show quoted posts by a different poster...Jill


Ahh poo, I'll still see them then if quoted.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Ahh poo, I'll still see them then if quoted.


sorry......


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I do think that there are some very blinkered people on this thread (I don't mean to offend people) but there are some people that appear to want to tar an entire breed with a bad name just because the tabloids say or they have had one bad expereince, and there are some people that are 'name calling' because their breed has been named as a bad breed.
I own a staffie, i own a dog friendly staffie that has been attacked in her life by labs and boxers, i do not tar labs and boxers with an evil brush and drag her away from them, in fact i seek out positive expereinces with these breeds so she doesn't develop issues.
I grew up with and my parents still own a dog aggressive jack russell.

I see both sides of the coin, i see the side where people drag their dogs away from my staffie panicking because of what she is, when all she is doing is wagging her tail and wanting to play. Her recall is brilliant and i have her under control at all times (In fact her recall is so good, that when she was palying with a dog this weekend and the dogs owner shouted will you come here, she went running over without a second thought and sat at this feet, while his dog continue to run round the beach causing chaos).

I see the other side of the coin where people allow their dogs to run up to my on lead jack russell and looked really annoyed when she goes for their dog...she is on the lead for a reason.

You can't judge any dog by breed whether it be a rottie, a staff, a yorkie or chi all dogs need to be judged on the dog they are not the breed they are.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> sorry......


So you should be...


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Must admit, I've taken the ankle biting bits etc with a pinch of salt, same as I have the knocks against bigger dogs. Everyone really is entitled to their opinion whether I find it offensive or not 

Anyway, I've posted this in other threads but I love this photo so I'm afraid you'll have to see it again :lol:



Em
xx


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Eroswoof said:


> Anyway, I've posted this in other threads but I love this photo so I'm afraid you'll have to see it again :lol:xx


LOVE IT!!!! I


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Chihuahua Angels said:


> I agree. Most of the damaging talk is towards small breed dogs? Have a look back. Many, many posts of people making small breeds look like ankle biting, aggressive, yapping little "rats" - I think that is disgusting! Very damaging to small breeds. But that's allowed is it???? Very one sided and hypocritical this thread! Quite astounding to those that haven't got their heads up their rears.
> 
> Anyway, my account is about to be deleted, well, I hope, I've asked enough times but I think maybe the Mods are all on holiday..... going by what is being allowed here:nono:


Did she close the door on the way out?  Hopefully investing in some reading glasses is on the cards, as that was not what was said. But there was a lot of nonsense about muzzling and leading all bull breeds


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> Did she close the door on the way out?


No, but I tripped over the toys she chucked out of the pram...


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> No, but I tripped over the toys she chucked out of the pram...


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'm off now to take my evil, killer staff and my rat dog out for a walk.

Do hope we get through this one without them killing one another...


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shibby said:


> Did she close the door on the way out?  Hopefully investing in some reading glasses is on the cards, as that was not what was said. But there was a lot of nonsense about muzzling and leading all bull breeds


People are entitled to their own opinion, yours is no more valid than hers


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> I'm off now to take my evil, killer staff and my rat dog out for a walk.
> 
> Do hope we get through this one without them killing one another...


Be careful!  



Amethyst said:


> People are entitled to their own opinion, yours is no more valid than hers


I'm not stating elsewise (although mine's on the more rational side), it is a public forum after all.


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> What a sad and pathetic post .... "rat dog owners" there would be an uproar here if I referred to Staffy owners as "attack dog owners" or similiar :nono:


The difference being that on this thread those that are all for enforcing misery on every bull breed regardless are only going on hearsay, whats written in the daily mail or just plain fear and ignorance with the exception of malumum who may has had issues with a bull breed but it is rare.

Those who are bringing in rat dogs, ankle biters or snappers etc actually witness it on a daily basis including myself and no hype or hearsay, its a fact that very few toy breeds behave well from my own observations.


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> The difference being that on this thread those that are all for enforcing misery on every bull breed regardless are only going on hearsay, whats written in the daily mail or just plain fear and ignorance with the exception of malumum who may has had issues with a bull breed but it is rare.
> 
> Those who are bringing in rat dogs, ankle biters or snappers etc actually witness it on a daily basis including myself and no hype or hearsay, its a fact that very few toy breeds behave well from my own observations.


 Bumble has his silver good citizens award and he's working towards his gold

Em
xx


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Can I just say I used to refer to my JRT as a Jack Ratter because they are often kept to keep the rat population down on farms around where I was brought up so it's more a term of endearment:001_smile:


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll apologise now to all the rat lovers out there - but they really are a pest in the wild :001_smile:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> aggression that's coming through on the *whole *of this thread.


Really?

The other Mod Tashi did not think so,here is what she said and I agree....

*"OK so once again the mods are being 'knocked' for allowing what is a debate to go on, tbh I havent seen any 'real' flaming done and all I have read is what people think and their opinion - I have one that I pick up and carry on times but because I want to, but she can also run with the bigger dogs that is my choice ! havent read the whole thread just the ones that a member keeps reporting and I havent seen that much on here that deems a mod stepping in and closing it - most members like the fact that the forum isnt over-moderated.

Keep it on track and no personal flaming if you dont like take a step back and dont read"*


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd hope I havent been aggressive


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

But I can be 


GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

there, now watch yourselves!!!!!!   :blink: :tongue_smilie:


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Jo P said:


> But I can be
> 
> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
> ...


:cryin: :cryin: :cryin:



Edit- To add a proper comment, we sometimes call our boys 'rat-boy', just a silly nickname for them, even though they're 15kg plus.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> The difference being that on this thread those that are all for enforcing misery on every bull breed regardless are only going on hearsay, whats written in the daily mail or just plain fear and ignorance with the exception of malumum who may has had issues with a bull breed but it is rare.


Who is for enforcing misery? I've never read anything of the sort :crazy:

Bull breeds problems are not rare here as far as dog on dog aggression goes, I have personally experienced it several times, as have friends. Neighbours dog ripped up by one. FACT ....

Though in fairness and thankfully, this is not as common, but this may have something to do with fact we now have fewer Staffies in this area


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Eroswoof said:


> Bumble has his silver good citizens award and he's working towards his gold
> 
> Em
> xx


Thats great,te ones I meet would stand no chance.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Thats great,te ones I meet would stand no chance.


:lol: Just felt I had to stand up for him a teeny bit :lol:

Em
xx


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Who is for enforcing misery? I've never read anything of the sort :crazy:


If you read my post I said.....

_"those that are *all for* enforcing misery"_

They want misery enforced on them by way of being muzzled and on a lead at all times.........That is misery for a sporting dog,read back and you will see it :smile:

That said,no one is actually enforcing it because they cannot but they *are all for it* :smile:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> If you read my post I said.....
> 
> _"those that are *all for* enforcing misery"_
> 
> ...


How many people wanted them muzzled and on leash all the time? One? Two?


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> How many people wanted them muzzled and on leash all the time? One? Two?


If you think I am going to go back and look through all this to find how many, dream on.

Whatever they want, they are wanting to inflict their misery on to a dog without any sensible reasoning but those commenting on the toy breeds see their bad behaviour on a daily basis personaly. :smile:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> If you think I am going to go back and look through all this to find how many, dream on.


I had presumed you must have known, considering you chose to highlight the point


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't know about dog aggression but there has certainly been forms of poster aggression on this thread :blink:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I don't know about dog aggression but there has certainly been forms of poster aggression on this thread :blink:


Where is that little "smilie" of the witch stirring the pot when you need it :lol:


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm another one who refers to our JRT as a rat....she will also respond to the rat as well among other things.....my mums dog and mine both have numerous nicknames....my staff will answer to fatty thanks to that been what my dad called her from being a pup...little embarrassing shouting come on fatty on the field.

One thing i do think that has been highlighted on here...there are quite a few staff owners and staffie x's and it seems to me the majority have had some form of run it with some breed or another, none of our staffs have reacted to the attacks let alone retaliated and no-one seems to be calling for the breed that attacked our dogs to be better handled.....it does raise the question if that little yorkie had been killed by a lab would people be having the same reaction...would the thread have reached 50-odd pages long?

I know people have said that all dog aggressive dogs should be kept on the lead but it seems to me even on a pet lovers forum all someone needs to do is mention staffie killed another dog and everyone is ready to flame the staffie and the rest of the bull breeds.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I had presumed you must have known, considering you chose to highlight the point


Of course you did, I always make a mental note of 6 said this, 89 said that and 44 said whatever 

Lets just take your word for it as one or two 

Thats one or two to many


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Of course you did, I always make a mental note of 6 said this, 89 said that and 44 said whatever
> 
> Lets just take your word for it as one or two
> 
> Thats one or two to many


I'll take it you had no idea


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I'll take it you had no idea


Of exact numbers?

No :smile:

Happy now 

There was plenty though wanting to inflict their misery on others for no good reson what so ever!

Next mute point....................... :smile:


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

stigDarley said:


> By the term rat dog I mean the horrible little things that are not controlled and are allowed to bite and attack my babies just becasue they are big!


I find it a shame that, like those posters who have derided Rottweilers and bull breeds, you are allowing the dog to become the focus of your vilification.

Bad ownership is bad ownership regardless of breed and the main victim of bad ownership is the usually the dog that is badly owned. It doesn't deserve our contempt or denigrating epithets to add to its problems.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Next mute point....................... :smile:


I think you perhaps mean moot point


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

As a bull breed owner, generalisations and stereotyping dont bother me. 

All i can do is make an effort to ensure my dogs are embassadors for their breed, and if i can change the opinion on even one person (although i know two that were once haters, and now at least like and trust mine) then its worth it.

Sadly in the case of the SBT, i do think bad owners heavily outweight the good ones, and whilst that is the case, the breed doesnt stand a chance of redeeming itself in the public eyes.

I would imagine that 99% of us have preconceived ideas about certain breeds. Some based on fact, some fiction, some experience. I know i do. I dont however try to judge the entire breed, and take each dog on an individual basis. One of the nicest dogs ive ever known, was in fact my least liked breed.

I dont think there will ever be a solution that will make everyone happy. Dogs fight for so many reasons, many of them unnoticed by owners. I think its just a risk we all take when we meet other walkers, and common sense should always be used.


In the two fatal dog attacks that ive been involved with, the aggressors were a GSD (killed a JRT) and two labs (killed a pom). Never made our local paper, yet the non fatal single puncture wound inflicted by a bull breed was an entire article and court case. Go figure.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I think you perhaps mean moot point


No I didn't :nono:

Do you know what mute means


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

How very sad - why doesnt one of you just say 'my Dad's bigger than yours' and have done with it


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> A
> In the two fatal dog attacks that ive been involved with, the aggressors were a GSD (killed a JRT) and two labs (killed a pom). Never made our local paper, yet the non fatal single puncture wound inflicted by a bull breed was an entire article and court case. Go figure.


The fatal attack where Staffy killed Yorkie in our area did not make the newspapers nor did it go to court. The Yorkies owners was an elderly lady and too frightened of reprisals 

She had recently lost her husband and said she just could not face anymore ...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> No I didn't :nono:
> 
> Do you know what mute means


Did someone speak :laugh:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I think its time to get back on track.. And stop this tit for tat...

At the end of the day .. We won't all agree.....

I like all dogs.. But am obviously not keen on the sort that like to swing off mine..

Now please stop with the tit for tat like I have said.. 
Hayley..


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> The fatal attack where Staffy killed Yorkie in our area did not make the newspapers nor did it go to court. The Yorkies owners was an elderly lady and too frightened of reprisals
> 
> She had recently lost her husband and said she just could not face anymore ...


Thats so sad.

I very, very rarely let mine socialise off lead with smaller dogs. Even in play an accident could happen, and theres always a part of me that worries that if a small dog pushes its luck, even a warning snap could cause serious injury.

I have to admit, i do wonder what kind of areas people live in sometimes. Theres isnt really a huge problem with aggressive dogs around here that im aware of, and we certainly have a high canine population.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

To be honest not a lot more to be said 

But an interesting and enlightening thread none the less :thumbup1:

*Off to look for some beads for my new jewellery making idea*


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> The fatal attack where Staffy killed Yorkie in our area did not make the newspapers nor did it go to court. The Yorkies owners was an elderly lady and too frightened of reprisals
> 
> She had recently lost her husband and said she just could not face anymore ...


Can I ask a question and I'm sorry if it sounds funny....but you comem across as having an issue with Staffies, probably as a result of the above attack. Hypotheticall speaking and please be honest, if the Yorkie had been killed by a lab for example would you feel as stongly about it.....or is it because its a staffy that you feel so strongly about it?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> I have to admit, i do wonder what kind of areas people live in sometimes. Theres isnt really a huge problem with aggressive dogs around here that im aware of, and we certainly have a high canine population.


I don't think it was so much the area, just the fact that Staffies were so popular at one time, every other dog seemed to be one. The one who killed the Yorkie belonged to a middle aged lady, not the stereotypical owner that has the "problem Staffy" ...

We don't have so many of these dogs around now, their popularity has waned, we see more of the smaller breeds these days


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> Edit- To add a proper comment, we sometimes call our boys 'rat-boy', just a silly nickname for them, even though they're 15kg plus.


Lol, Roo is Rat Boy, Harvey is doodles or Killer!!

Look at em, they could be a pair of super heroes! Rat Boy and Killer!!!

**warning, seriously scary dog picture...**










And I feed him raw meat and everything!!!!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> I have to admit, i do wonder what kind of areas people live in sometimes. Theres isnt really a huge problem with aggressive dogs around here that im aware of, and we certainly have a high canine population.


Same here! I walk mine twice a day and always see people with their dogs, even know a few now to stop and say hello to.

There's an old man with a little Shitzu called Kate, he always stops me to pet my two and give them a biscuit! There's the bloke with Snoopy, Harvey's best friend- a deaf and partially blind 13 year old cross breed, then there's the man with the 4 springers that are impecably trained and always say hello, then there's the lady with the little pom and chis that are always caked in mud...

I've had 2 incidents that have gotten me mad, and both those were because the lack of concern or interest from the owner that I reacted the way I did. But I read all the time about attacks, bad owners, irresponsible owners etc...either I'm really lucky to never have come across it, others are just dead unlucky, or I simply don't let much get to me, I can't decide.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Lol, Roo is Rat Boy, Harvey is doodles or Killer!!
> 
> Look at em, they could be a pair of super heroes! Rat Boy and Killer!!!
> 
> ...


Hehehe, you could get them a pair of capes with that on!  I think it was the b/f who started calling them Rat Boy, I call them all sorts of silly stuff. Harvey is really coming on now! They both look gorgeous :001_wub:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can I ask a question and I'm sorry if it sounds funny....but you comem across as having an issue with Staffies, probably as a result of the above attack. Hypotheticall speaking and please be honest, if the Yorkie had been killed by a lab for example would you feel as stongly about it.....or is it because its a staffy that you feel so strongly about it?


dont be daft, labs don't attack people or dogs...

I asked this question before, why don't people see large breeds as a danger? Newfies and Saints would do so much damage if they bit anyone, but no one bothers.

The media and mass hysteria as displayed on this thread has a LOT to answer for.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can I ask a question and I'm sorry if it sounds funny....but you comem across as having an issue with Staffies, probably as a result of the above attack. Hypotheticall speaking and please be honest, if the Yorkie had been killed by a lab for example would you feel as stongly about it.....or is it because its a staffy that you feel so strongly about it?


Waiting eagerly to see the answer of this one, but doubt it will get a reply


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> Hehehe, you could get them a pair of capes with that on!  I think it was the b/f who started calling them Rat Boy, I call them all sorts of silly stuff. Harvey is really coming on now! They both look gorgeous :001_wub:


Aww thanks, he is turning into a beautiful boy, I just wish to hell i knew what he was crossed with/how big he's gonna get!!

How anyone could beat him/abandon him at the age of 12 weeks is beyond me, sick ba***rds.



Patterdale_lover said:


> Waiting eagerly to see the answer of this one, but doubt it will get a reply


Want some popcorn?


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Aww thanks, he is turning into a beautiful boy, I just wish to hell i knew what he was crossed with/how big he's gonna get!!
> 
> How anyone could beat him/abandon him at the age of 12 weeks is beyond me, sick ba***rds.


 That's awful, they're subhuman. I worry about the dogs who'll never find a home free of abuse  With the stigma attached to the breed, some people use that to justify their actions


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

just thought i would share this with you...this is what they are all about

[URL=http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn203/paddyjulie/ozzy/?action=view&current=V050709_1843.mp4]


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

paddyjulie said:


> just thought i would share this with you...this is what they are all about
> 
> [URL=http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn203/paddyjulie/ozzy/?action=view&current=V050709_1843.mp4]


I dont like it - I LOVE it xoxox


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Jo P said:


> I dont like it - I LOVE it xoxox


Snap!! What a great vid!!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2011)

:lol: I didn't even realise it was a video :lol:

*sigh* :

Em
xx

EDIT - oh so it is :lol: I like it even more now :thumbup:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Eroswoof said:


> :lol: I didn't even realise it was a video :lol:
> 
> *sigh* :
> 
> ...


pmsl.....not gunna say a word :001_smile:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> That's awful, they're subhuman. I worry about the dogs who'll never find a home free of abuse  With the stigma attached to the breed, some people use that to justify their actions


Oh tell me about it. i wanted to hunt the scum down and go batter him, but the rescue wouldn't tell me where they lived!

they didn't know the extent of the issues really until I phoned them and updated them on his progress. He's getting a lot better now and we're working through issues. He is also happy getting loves and cuddles from people who come to my house now, which is a massive step forward.

And he loves stigdarley, she brings him presents!!:tongue_smilie:


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Oh tell me about it. i wanted to hunt the scum down and go batter him, but the rescue wouldn't tell me where they lived!
> 
> they didn't know the extent of the issues really until I phoned them and updated them on his progress. He's getting a lot better now and we're working through issues. He is also happy getting loves and cuddles from people who come to my house now, which is a massive step forward.
> 
> And he loves stigdarley, she brings him presents!!:tongue_smilie:


I bet you did  I felt the same with our eldest rescue boy, his last owner sounded like a right cow (putting it lightly) who left him with a whole string of 'issues'. It's great to hear you're making progress. How does he get on with Roo?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> I bet you did  I felt the same with our eldest rescue boy, his last owner sounded like a right cow (putting it lightly) who left him with a whole string of 'issues'. It's great to hear you're making progress. How does he get on with Roo?


Harvey was born in the rescue and then adopted at 8 weeks old. Brought back 4 weeks later for weeing/pooing in the house and chewing things. 

it was only after we'd had him for 3 days that we started to notice things. He was fine if I mopped the floor, but OH did it he'd pee on the floor. Little things like men with walking sticks, freak him out and if he has an accident in the house he runs away and hides.

I think that they've beaten him for normal puppy behaviour but we're getting there.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Harvey was born in the rescue and then adopted at 8 weeks old. Brought back 4 weeks later for weeing/pooing in the house and chewing things.
> 
> it was only after we'd had him for 3 days that we started to notice things. He was fine if I mopped the floor, but OH did it he'd pee on the floor. Little things like men with walking sticks, freak him out and if he has an accident in the house he runs away and hides.
> 
> I think that they've beaten him for normal puppy behaviour but we're getting there.


*shakes head*  It's a shame you can't polygraph people wishing to adopt animals. I see pups getting adopted from one of our local shelters and some go back in 'through no fault of their own' with behavioural problems through lack of training & socialising. Our eldest used to run away from you if you picked your foot/shoe up off the floor, but we've worked on it with him and I don't know how but it's turned in to a game, he play bows and has a good play now instead of cowering, proud of him


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

shibby said:


> *shakes head*  It's a shame you can't polygraph people wishing to adopt animals. I see pups getting adopted from one of our local shelters and some go back in 'through no fault of their own' with behavioural problems through lack of training & socialising. Our eldest used to run away from you if you picked your foot/shoe up off the floor, but we've worked on it with him and I don't know how but it's turned in to a game, he play bows and has a good play now instead of cowering, proud of him


Harvey now attacks the mop...


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> Lol, Roo is Rat Boy, Harvey is doodles or Killer!!
> 
> Look at em, they could be a pair of super heroes! Rat Boy and Killer!!!
> 
> ...


OMG H+H...were you safe taking that pic? were you behind one of them new fangled see-through riot shields or something?
If you were chuck it this way for me to use when this thread gets lively again :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> OMG H+H...were you safe taking that pic? were you behind one of them new fangled see-through riot shields or something?
> If you were chuck it this way for me to use when this thread gets lively again :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


I have a chair and a whip, like a lion tamer...


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## Xena1 (Apr 13, 2011)

Dogs end up in the wrong hands which is what makes them aggressive and then the owners breed there dogs which could affect the nature of the litter, carrying the mother or fathers genes.

All breeds have a wonderful nature as long has they are bought up properly, socialized well.


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

Xena1 said:


> Dogs end up in the wrong hands which is what makes them aggressive and then the owners breed there dogs which could affect the nature of the litter, carrying the mother or fathers genes.
> 
> All breeds have a wonderful nature as long has they are bought up properly, socialized well.


Thank you for restarting a old thread.....


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Well if ever i had to have molly(not that i would) adopted they would swear blind she was mistreated, ide be had up she is scared of most things fine when she is out but in the house, the ironing board scares her, if anyone sneezes, laughs or shouts too loud and if a plastic bad happens to fall well, none of us will take our belt off when she is around, i was putting in washing one day when i realised my son had left his belt on his jeans so i whipped it out and she was on her belly and into the other room and on her bed, he once came downstairs putting his belt on and she sloped off and went as far into the corner as she could, now what alarm bells would that ring to anyone else.


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Well if ever i had to have molly(not that i would) adopted they would swear blind she was mistreated, ide be had up she is scared of most things fine when she is out but in the house, the ironing board scares her, if anyone sneezes, laughs or shouts too loud and if a plastic bad happens to fall well, none of us will take our belt off when she is around, i was putting in washing one day when i realised my son had left his belt on his jeans so i whipped it out and she was on her belly and into the other room and on her bed, he once came downstairs putting his belt on and she sloped off and went as far into the corner as she could, now what alarm bells would that ring to anyone else.


***holes who ever did that to her that she would be so scared for life about them


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Stephen&Dogs said:


> ***holes who ever did that to her that she would be so scared for life about them


No we have had her since she was 8 weeks old the breeder is a friend of mine and we was in contact as soon as the pups were born, the point i was trying to make is if she was rehomed someone would be pointing the finger and so was i if we hadnt been her only owner.
Just silly little things that she is scared of she is a twin which my friend kept and she is he same. Take her out on bonfire night and its like world war 3 up here at that time and she never bats an eyelid, its silly little things that she doesnt like.


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## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> No we have had her since she was 8 weeks old the breeder is a friend of mine and we was in contact as soon as the pups were born, the point i was trying to make is if she was rehomed someone would be pointing the finger and so was i if we hadnt been her only owner.
> Just silly little things that she is scared of she is a twin which my friend kept and she is he same. Take her out on bonfire night and its like world war 3 up here at that time and she never bats an eyelid, its silly little things that she doesnt like.


Oh never mind then, I misread the op.


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## thedogwhisperer (Aug 22, 2011)

Hang on a min. Aggression is not breed specific anyway so surely this thread should be re-titled to aggressive dogs and their traits and state that aggressive dogs should not be bred from!!?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dogs that will be bred should have great temperaments. However what id like to know is cant a pup bred from great parents still turn out aggressive? Also cant aggressive working/gaurding breeds have pup that is very friendly towards dogs and people?

Surely it depends on the training/owner? Can personality really be dependant on genes? 

Isnt that like saying the perfect couple will have the perfect child and two murderers havin a baby will produce a monster?

Sorry if i sound like a newbie lol but its very interesting


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I have a good example of a dog that should NOT be bred...

A rescue so we cant tell how much is nature and how much is trauma..But thats a very good reason to make sure he is never bred from.

Avoids contact / eyecontact except when he wants it, food guarding, can be snappy to other dogs if they sniff him/ ditto humans unexpectedly touching him..

Will snarl if anyone tries to handle him for nail clipping, teeth cleaning, bath ect ect.. Will snarl at and circle any new object in the room, hates change.

Very early on we knew that he had to be castrated and that no matter what happened he could never be re-homed again..

This dangerous dog is ....A beagle..

It can be any dog the point is a good breeder should know the traits and personality of each and every dog they breed from..Thats why I hate those ads that read ' has anyone got a dog to mate my XX breed bitch with' ?? Lord knows what traits the puppies end up with


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Do you think a dog can have ADD? I'm sure my Staffie had this, he was socialised and trained from a pup but still developed 'issues', or maybe it was bad breeding. 
My point being, you can't just say, oh its the owners fault for not training their dog properly! Some dogs have aggresive issues, yes probably mostly down to owner error but not all cases. How about American Pitbulls? They were bred originally for Bull Baiting, so only the toughest would be selected to breed from. After that was outlawed they began breeding them to fight each other so the aggresive ones would be bred from. 
I do believe it can carry through the genes like a retriever is good at retrieving or a Blood hound has excellent smell, all through genetic selective breeding. Yes all dogs have the ability to be trained for anything, but through selective breeding certain breeds are better than others. So why can't aggresion be passed on too?


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Ive just commented in another thread about this. 

I firmly believe a dog is what you make it.

Obviously breeding a dog that is agreesive isnt a sensible move but just because that dog is agressive it dosn't mean its offspring will be, i think nurture plays the biggest role in this not nature. 

People say staffies arnt good with other dogs and you cant have 2 male staffies together well me n the oh have 2 males both nutered but they get on amazingly they have lived together a year and they have not had one fight. they live with a cat and 2 rabbits and they all adore each other. Stanlie is 3 and hooch is 5.

So my point is a well raised dog will be a great all round dog.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Since we started with Staffs.. I have properly known 2 Staffs in my lifetime and neither were aggressive. I put this down to the owners. When people get Staffs they know what they are getting. Some will be prepared to put in the work. Some won't. At the extreme end of the scale some will put in the wrong kind of work. If you got rid of all Staffs all you'd do is start the same cycle with another dog breed.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> Since we started with Staffs.. I have properly known 2 Staffs in my lifetime and neither were aggressive. I put this down to the owners. When people get Staffs they know what they are getting. Some will be prepared to put in the work. Some won't. At the extreme end of the scale some will put in the wrong kind of work. If you got rid of all Staffs all you'd do is start the same cycle with another dog breed.


Couldnt agree more, and this is why BSL is ridiculous if you get rid of one breed like they banned pitbull types and pit bulls people who are idiots move on to other breeds like they have with staffies, rotties, etc you could banned all so called dangerous dogs, but people will use any dogs they want for protection or too use as fighting dogs its a viscious circle.

The key is too educate owners not too target dog breeds.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Couldnt agree more, and this is why BSL is ridiculous if you get rid of one breed like they banned pitbull types and pit bulls people who are idiots move on to other breeds like they have with staffies, rotties, etc you could banned all so called dangerous dogs, but people will use any dogs they want for protection or too use as fighting dogs its a viscious circle.
> 
> The key is too educate owners not too target dog breeds.


there should be stricter laws brought in,starting off covering the more difficult breeds,the eventually covering them all.......buying certain breeds,should require a legal contract....the owner must take to classes etc..breeders should also have to be liscenced.


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## thedogwhisperer (Aug 22, 2011)

I don't see how this would be workable though ?


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> there should be stricter laws brought in,starting off covering the more difficult breeds,the eventually covering them all.......buying certain breeds,should require a legal contract....the owner must take to classes etc..breeders should also have to be liscenced.


I totally agree, any decent owner who really wanted a dog would agree and do it, the problem is how would it be policed....


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> there should be stricter laws brought in,starting off covering the more difficult breeds,the eventually covering them all.......buying certain breeds,should require a legal contract....the owner must take to classes etc..breeders should also have to be liscenced.





xshelly_stanliex said:


> I totally agree, any decent owner who really wanted a dog would agree and do it, the problem is how would it be policed....


Depends how strict the laws would be though.....look at Germany 

Dogs and the Law for petsafe Holidays at Le Dog Stop


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> I totally agree, any decent owner who really wanted a dog would agree and do it, the problem is how would it be policed....


perhaps if every dog had to be registered with your local council,liscence fee could pay for dog wardens,same for breeders...big fines or no liscence.

anoter part could be certain breeds have to do certain social classes,and you cant recieve your liscence till completed........now i clearly havnt thought it all through,but it would be a start.....nd owning a dog wold then be seen as a big responsability as i should be .


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Problem is the goverment dont seem too realise that its the owners who are responsible and like too judge a dog on looks rather than its behaviour.

i cant see the goverment bringing in a dog licence, although it would as you say make people think about getting a dog.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> I firmly believe a dog is what you make it.
> So my point is a well raised dog will be a great all round dog.





diefenbaker said:


> I put this down to the owners. When people get Staffs they know what they are getting. Some will be prepared to put in the work. Some won't. At the extreme end of the scale some will put in the wrong kind of work. If you got rid of all Staffs all you'd do is start the same cycle with another dog breed.


I've had several Staffies, my dad bred many years ago and they were all good natured and friendly. The last one i owned wasn't one of ours as my dad had stopped breeding by that time. He was brought up just the same as all the rest, socialised like all the rest but he still turned aggresive, a problem that got worse and worse. He was a well raised dog, and loved until he died, was it my fault that he turned out to be aggressive then? Its quiet easy to judge someone, to make an assumption before having all the facts which is ... hurtful!
None of you know the work i put into that dog, how when i finally thought we had a breakthrough it would be back to square one! The amount of money i paid out on training and to no avail :mad2: And still there was always someone their to spin the same old rubbish... "Its the owners fault!" 
In the end i gave up and let him be, sick of everyone judging him and me. 
Now as i said i do agree that a lot is down to owners fault, but not all, whether it be medical problems, dietary, trauma or genetics some things are out of a persons control.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

emsky said:


> I've had several Staffies, my dad bred many years ago and they were all good natured and friendly. The last one i owned wasn't one of ours as my dad had stopped breeding by that time. He was brought up just the same as all the rest, socialised like all the rest but he still turned aggresive, a problem that got worse and worse. He was a well raised dog, and loved until he died, was it my fault that he turned out to be aggressive then? Its quiet easy to judge someone, to make an assumption before having all the facts which is ... hurtful!
> None of you know the work i put into that dog, how when i finally thought we had a breakthrough it would be back to square one! The amount of money i paid out on training and to no avail :mad2: And still there was always someone their to spin the same old rubbish... "Its the owners fault!"
> In the end i gave up and let him be, sick of everyone judging him and me.
> Now as i said i do agree that a lot is down to owners fault, but not all, whether it be medical problems, dietary, trauma or genetics some things are out of a persons control.


i agree things like medical conditions etc can cause a major problem and even with trainning can not help the dog, i had a pure bred pedigree gsd with my ex and he turned agressive around 6 months old to dogs and people he didnt know because he had arthritus. 
But i do believe a dog is what you make it thats my oppinion.

No dog is born agressive.


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## Petloversdigest (Dec 10, 2010)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> i agree things like medical conditions etc can cause a major problem and even with trainning can not help the dog, i had a pure bred pedigree gsd with my ex and he turned agressive around 6 months old to dogs and people he didnt know because he had arthritus.


I do so agree with this - sometimes the first sign of a painful dog is one which shows aggression unexpectedly and which is out of character - by the same logic, I would not put a painful dog in a position where it would be judged if it reacted badly, such as with young children, for example.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

It is a contraversial one as staffies (and not everyone likes to admit it) - were originally bred as a fighting dog and some staffies have this instinct more than others. I know one staffy that wasn't dog aggressive and then turned dog aggressive once it had been attacked by a labrador he was brought up very well and another who was brought up very well just suddenly started attacking the other dogs in the house once it reached adulthood.

Any breed that was originally bred for a purpose and lets face it most were/are will occasionally show breed traits whether bred from sound tempramented parents or not and the only way to stop this is not to breed that certain breed anymore.

Having said that I don't agree with wiping out certain breeds just incase their instincts kick in. 

I think it is about learning as much as you can about the breed you want before you buy it and taking responsiblity if the worst happens.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> It sounded like you didnt think the breeds in general shouldn't be bred. But in this case no of course breeders shouldn't be breeding bad temperaments and the good ones aren't.


I have to admit I read it to mean the same... I was ready with a good response. Glad you clarified


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Whilst they were used in dog fights, they were used because of there temprement towards humans which is non-aggressive they needed dogs that would not turn on them when trying too get there dog out, dog and human agression are two different things entirely. 

Anyone who thinks a whole breed should be wiped out well........

Lets think then what breeds are people gonna campaign too be banned and kill because of human ignorance. 

Staffies because of irresponsible owners who train them incorrectly and take no responsibility for them, but wait the same goes for rotties, german sheps, dobermans, labradors, collies, jack russels, pugs lets just say all breeds because in the wrong hands are a ticking time bombs. 

I for one think the world would be a sad place without dogs, because of a few incidents that have happened whilst dogs from all breeds have been in the wrong hands yes some are more capable of causing more damage than others but all are capable of being agressive.

Lets just banned idiotic owners who dont have brain cells and dont do teh responsible thing, if you have a dog agressive dog you keep it on lead under control if you have a human agressive dog you do the same. you make sure you are protecting people from your dog if its agressive.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> the only way to stop this is not to breed that certain breed anymore.


My Akita is a fighting/hunting breed..should we ban the breeding of Akitas?

My American Bulldog has a headstrong breed trait which can lead to DA...should we ban American Bulldogs?

Punish irresponsible owners dont punish the breeds!


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> My Akita is a fighting/hunting breed..should we ban the breeding of Akitas?
> 
> My American Bulldog has a headstrong breed trait which can lead to DA...should we ban American Bulldogs?


no need to ban any breed ....just change the temperament ! - after all we can and do breed for physical changes in breeds so why not breed away from 'traditional' temperaments that make dogs unsuited to their present day role ? -

As well as health tests all dogs used for breeding should undergo a temperament assessment before passing on their genes - this may mean that over time most breeds will have the same kind of biddable easy going character despite retaining their outward differences ....a kind of "one size fits all " temperament...after all what fun is there in trying to walk a dog that simply cannot mix with others of it's own kind or of having a nervous breakdown every time a visitor comes to your home because of your dog's guarding traits -

Of course this may well not go down well with those that view their 'well ard' dogs as an extension of their gonads but then perhaps they should be undergoing some kind of therapy instead of using the dog to bolster their macho status


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

But lets not forget that Staffies were also used to watch over children in orphanages, and did so with great success and no reported attacks on these children,
Any dog can become aggressive i the wrong hands imo...when you bring your new puppy home, whatever the breed, it is a blank canvas , what an owner does after that is what shapes their temperament.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Bijou said:


> no need to ban any breed ....just change the temperament ! - after all we can and do breed for physical changes in breeds so why not breed away from 'traditional' temperaments that make dogs unsuited to their present day role ? -
> 
> As well as health tests all dogs used for breeding should undergo a temperament assessment before passing on their genes - this may mean that over time most breeds will have the same kind of biddable easy going character despite retaining their outward differences ....a kind of "one size fits all " temperament...after all what fun is there in trying to walk a dog that simply cannot mix with others of it's own kind or of having a nervous breakdown every time a visitor comes to your home because of your dog's guarding traits -
> 
> Of course this may well not go down well with those that view their 'well ard' dogs as an extension of their gonads but then perhaps they should be undergoing some kind of therapy instead of using the dog to bolster their macho status


While I agree that breeders should not be breeding for aggression, I think it would be a mistake to aim to have, as you put it "most breeds [with] the same kind of biddable easy going character". To me this is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think many people are drawn to certain breed's because of their temperament. For me I love bull terriers, not because of their look but because of their temperament the idea of loosing that boisterous, stubborn, slightly crazy, fun loving temperament, and replacing it with a "biddable easy going character" fills me with horror. If this was the case you would no longer have a bull terrier, bull terrier shaped Labrador.

Its a bit like wanting to breed all of the energy an working spirit out of a BC, who would want a collie who just wants to go out for a ten minute walk and then spends the rest of the day asleep.

a far better thing to do is to educate owners so people buy dogs that suit them and their needs.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Did I say that staffies and akitas should be banned? I said that aggressive traits shouldn't be bred into the breed, so well tempered akitas and staffies should be bred. Basically all good breeders who breed good temperaments into their breeds, carry on. But the bad breeders who breed dogs with questionable temperaments that are _supposed _to be breed traits, shouldn't be breeding.


I think we all know that anyway...but generally speaking the responsible pet owners that are using this forum would think that was obvious, even dogs bred for police work need to have steady temperaments with no nervousness etc...so in a way, yes I agree...but it seems like a rather obvious thing to point out, hence I think why people seemed a bit confused or maybe offended that you might mean not all breeds of dog should continue - as we all know, the people who don't do this, will continue to do so - whatever their reasons, financial or otherwise.

Also, I think it would be possible to have the most perfectly bred dog and for it to become aggressive in the wrong hands, so even careful breeding wouldn't solve the problem.

Naomi


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

After molly been attacked by a staffy on sunday and seeing the owners reaction, ime certain that the owner is at fault here. What made me even more cross or should i say dissapointed was that the attack was made by a staffy yet another statistic in my mind. Ime a staffy "defender" my dogs run and play with staffys and staffy crosses very often, have lovely owners and never been a problem, any dog can be trained,bred to be aggressive the difference is the damage a staffy can do as apose to some other breeds, what can we do about these owners? tough one, we will/are also going to see, great, sensible owners with aggressive staffys because of bad breeding education can come i here but unfortunately the owners that want the nasty,status dog not a lot can be done.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

I don't believe that any staffy should be bred atm! There's thousands of wonderful staffys waiting to give you their love in pounds and shelters! Staffys are being killed everyday because they can't find a home for them! Why bring more into the world when there's so many needing help!!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> But lets not forget that Staffies were also used to watch over children in orphanages, and did so with great success and no reported attacks on these children,
> Any dog can become aggressive i the wrong hands imo...when you bring your new puppy home, whatever the breed, it is a blank canvas , what an owner does after that is what shapes their temperament.


I don't agree with the blank canvas idea. It's more complicated than that. For one thing there's the breed traits that are hard wired into the dog. If puppies were blank canvases you'd be able to train a sighthound to retrieve, a bulldog to herd - but we all know it's not like that. There are also inherited modifiers of responses to the environment - by that I mean some dogs shrug off negative experiences because they view the world as a basically safe and happy place, others respond to the same stress with extreme nervousness and never get over it - and all grades in between. This is probably due to production and rate of breakdown of stress hormones, seratonins of other factors in neuro chemistry - and that must be at least in part heriditary.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> I don't agree with the blank canvas idea. It's more complicated than that. For one thing there's the breed traits that are hard wired into the dog. If puppies were blank canvases you'd be able to train *a sighthound to retrieve,* a bulldog to herd - but we all know it's not like that. There are also inherited modifiers of responses to the environment - by that I mean some dogs shrug off negative experiences because they view the world as a basically safe and happy place, others respond to the same stress with extreme nervousness and never get over it - and all grades in between. This is probably due to production and rate of breakdown of stress hormones, seratonins of other factors in neuro chemistry - and that must be at least in part heriditary.


Don't know about the bulldog herding but sighthounds do retrieve - I know plenty of whippets and lurchers who do and my male greyhound does as well. It's harder to teach to an adult ex-racer but plenty of sighthounds that people have had from puppies do. And I'm sure it's something that working lurchers definitely need to do.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

L/C said:


> Don't know about the bulldog herding but sighthounds do retrieve - I know plenty of whippets and lurchers who do and my male greyhound does as well. It's harder to teach to an adult ex-racer but plenty of sighthounds that people have had from puppies do. And I'm sure it's something that working lurchers definitely need to do.


I didn't mean fetching a tennis ball in the park, but proper game retrieval, like going into water to collect ducks. Might happen, but not often and not easily. 
I think you might be able to teach a bulldog to herd too, but it's not hardwired into them, it would take a lot of effort and there wouldn't be any of the hardwired instinctual aspect to help the dog understand what it was being asked to do.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Really? We should only breed biddable dogs? This could be why the police are looking at using Malinois. Aggression is the unacceptable face of determination. Just as sheep chasing is the unacceptable face of herding. And killing fluffy kittens the result of an unshaped but totally natural prey drive. 
The dog is a carnivorous animal, and a predator. We have shaped his behaviour over the centuries, but we still need to work with each individual dog to transfer the drives into desired behaviours. 
This is what we are in danger of losing - the ability to appreciate the nature of an animal and shape these admired characteristics into what we can use. 
These days people expect Andrex dogs. But these are fiction. 
You will never breed all aggression out of a dog. But you can transfer that drive on to a squeaky toy. Or turn the prey drive into the desire to run an agility course.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I don't agree with the blank canvas idea. It's more complicated than that. For one thing there's the breed traits that are hard wired into the dog. If puppies were blank canvases you'd be able to train a sighthound to retrieve, a bulldog to herd - but we all know it's not like that. There are also inherited modifiers of responses to the environment - by that I mean some dogs shrug off negative experiences because they view the world as a basically safe and happy place, others respond to the same stress with extreme nervousness and never get over it - and all grades in between. This is probably due to production and rate of breakdown of stress hormones, seratonins of other factors in neuro chemistry - and that must be at least in part heriditary.


Well then I shall take your don't agree and raise you a disagree lol  because imo it is not that complicated......given time /patience and dedication you can teach a dog to do anything you like, mine certainly don't live up to their breeds 'traits' at all my staffxlab herds when we're all out together and GSD does many things a terrier does. 
IMO a dog is what you make it with the correct training:biggrin:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

A working titled duck and sheep herding pitbull herding ducks at a trial:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

If you want to breed the original temperaments out of the breeds then why have that breed?? Should my Akita have the temperament of a Lab?? Then why dont i just get a Lab?? Aggression is not bred into a breed, however what is bred into them is independence, being bold and headstrong. Not cowering is not the same as being aggressive. 

Breeds traits are there for a purpose when originally used and now they are part of certain breeds which to us are endearing. If we want a breed for just its looks then that is also wrong imo. Would you like a Ferrari but with a 1.0 litre engine from a mini metro? We might as well just start breeding for one generic dog that humans can own as pets.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> If you want to breed the original temperaments out of the breeds then why have that breed?? Should my Akita have the temperament of a Lab?? Then why dont i just get a Lab?? Aggression is not bred into a breed, however what is bred into them is independence, being bold and headstrong. Not cowering is not the same as being aggressive.
> 
> Breeds traits are there for a purpose when originally used and now they are part of certain breeds which to us are endearing. If we want a breed for just its looks then that is also wrong imo. Would you like a Ferrari but with a 1.0 litre engine from a mini metro? We might as well just start breeding for one generic dog that humans can own as pets.


This thread was started nine months ago, but the above has made me think. What with technology advancing so rapidly, perhaps we could all have an android dog, an Akita with all working parts, programmed to do as he is told and who never wears out. Let's get rid of dogs altogether and have android dogs instead. Of course, they would have to make waterproof innards for newfies and other swimming dogs, and I doubt a wolf would be very scared of an android ovcharka, but hey you can't have everything.

I cannot understand why anyone would think a dog is aggressive solely because of its breed. Of course some dogs are inherently dog aggressive, hunters, whatever, but traits are there to be worked with, not eliminated. Where is the fun in that?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> This thread was started nine months ago, but the above has made me think. What with technology advancing so rapidly, perhaps we could all have an android dog, an Akita with all working parts, programmed to do as he is told and who never wears out. Let's get rid of dogs altogether and have android dogs instead. Of course, they would have to make waterproof innards for newfies and other swimming dogs, and I doubt a wolf would be very scared of an android ovcharka, but hey you can't have everything.
> ?


One tht is controlled from the comfort of your iphone. Copyright that before Apple see it!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> One tht is controlled from the comfort of your iphone. Copyright that before Apple see it!


But that doesn't look much like and Akita! Just think, huskeys that don't need any exercise; border collies that sleep all day (I'll have one of those). I am sure the day will come, then we can dispense with dogs and all their little quirks and worries altogether.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

...and if we don't start to adapt dogs to fit in with life as we now live it then we condemn them to frustration, neurosis and worse .....it is a fact that more dogs are placed on rescue and subsequently PTS because people are unprepared for the stark reality of living with high working or prey drives ....



> Breeds traits are there for a purpose when originally used and now they are part of certain breeds which to us are endearing.


but aggression is NOT endearing whether its' towards humans or other dogs ...yep it may well have served a purpose in days gone by when dog fighting, bullbaiting and flock guarding were extensively carried out but hand on heart how appropriate is it to retain those characteristics now ? -

I have a pastoral breed, originally bred to work 1-1 with a shepherd, to circle flocks of sheep and to act intuitively in order to safeguard them - this meant that their original temperament was very bonded with one person and distrustful of strangers - 25 years ago when I first had the breed most were very shy and reactive to strange people and experiences - now that''s fine if you spend your days out in a field with one person but if you live in the average family home this kind of temperament is simply a liability ...and so my breed has changed - shyness is no longer a valued trait - getting rid of this but retaining the breeds incredible intuitiveness has meant that they are now used as therapy and assistance dogs in many countries - thus truly making them 'fit for function' .... but a function that has relevance in todays world .

I'm not saying that Staffys for example should lose all their individual breed traits after all why would we want to lose all that loveable clownishness ...  but most certainly I'd like to see the dog aggression traits deliberately bred out ...if we can change the shape of a breeds ear, coat colour or tail set then we can just as easily change their temperament


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## JonoBeagle (Nov 1, 2011)

Well there is another thread about that rescue that is a case in point! So it is an aggressive unworkable breed? No, the dog got no love and affection and was stressed! Hence odd thoughts... It is always the dogs fault but never the owners! 

Due to my work and wanting to preserve my liver, I am having a dry period. My wife was drinking; some friends were over and my wife put his water bowl in a place where Boris always jumps off the bed! He jumped straight into the water bowl. Everyone was angry with Boris, I was angry with my wife! She should know better.

All of our actions affect the dogs. If he is chewing, and stealing and poo-ing everywhere, perhaps we should look at why the dog did it... He/she doesn't do it to spite us... They want to please us and get our attention. One of the women their owns a JRT and admits that her dog is less excitable at the weekends when she is with him all day rather than when with the dog walker! 

She still had to comment that the dogs do things deliberately. Well yes, they do! Every animal does things deliberately, including humans... But what is the reason, what is the cause! That is nothing to do with the breed but how they are brought up, trained, how much exercise they are given, whether or not they like their food or are hungry!! 

Now I have a question! Why is it that Akitas are considered aggressive towards anything? Are we talking about Akita-inu or American Akitas? They are completely separate breeds! I know nothing of the Americans, but the Japanese are big fluff-balls that couldn't be gentler with anything if they tried. Yes, big excitable dogs can be dangerous; but keeping them stimulated makes them less excitable does it not?? 

It all comes back to deed and not breed! A friend has a sheepdog (the ones that look like Bob Marley); he thinks despite lots of puppy socialisation classes that it doesn't like other dogs! This isn't the case; he just has a tendency to bark! He and Boris got on like a house on fire!! Understanding traits and a properly exercised and socialised dog whatever the breed will always be sociable if trained properly and realises that attacks are not due to all dogs, just some with stupid owners... An understanding of that would go a long way to fewer dogs in shelters and fewer puppy farms that breed simply for looks and not temperament!


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## tezmania (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm not sure where u coming from.Staffordshire Bull Terrier :This breed was once known as a fierce gladiator. A Bull Terrier might have a preventive effect, and it will certainly defend its owner in a truly critical situation. Bull terriers are known to be courageous, scrappy, fun-loving, active, clownish and fearless. They become very attached to their owners. The Bull Terrier thrives on a firm, consistent leadership and affection. This breed can be a pet if very thoroughly socialized and trained. If they do not get enough physical and mental exercise they may be too energetic for small children. Children should be taught how to display leadership towards the dog. Meek owners will find them to become very protective, willful, possessive and/or jealous. Bull Terriers may try to join into family roughhousing or quarrel. Bull Terriers generally must be given a lot of structure.[2] Unaltered males may not get along with other male dogs. Males and females can live together happily, and two females can also be a good combination with care and supervision. They should be introduced in a proper fashion to other non-canine pets such as cats, hamsters, and guinea pigs etc.
A recent study carried out on 6,000 dogs and their owners found out 33 of the most aggressive dogs, and also those which have good temperaments. The study involved collecting data from two different groups. The first group consisted of 11 different breeds and the second was an online survey mainly involving owners, including 33 breeds. The conclusions from both groups were similar. It looked at the different types of aggression such as towards other dogs, towards strangers and towards owners. Some of the results were surprising, below are the top ten most aggressive breed:
1-Dachshunds
2-Chihuahua
3-Jack Russell
4-Australian Cattle Dog
5-Cocker Spaniel
6-Beagle
7-Border Collie
8-Pit Bull Terrier
9-Great Dane
10-English Springer Spaniel 
P.S. Very surprising idd there is no staffies


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> I don't believe that any staffy should be bred atm! There's thousands of wonderful staffys waiting to give you their love in pounds and shelters! Staffys are being killed everyday because they can't find a home for them! Why bring more into the world when there's so many needing help!!


I agree with you there no they shouldnt be bred but tbh i would be very wary of owning a staffy from rescue either.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Bijou said:


> ...and if we don't start to adapt dogs to fit in with life as we now live it then we condemn them to frustration, neurosis and worse .....it is a fact that more dogs are placed on rescue and subsequently PTS because people are unprepared for the stark reality of living with high working or prey drives ....
> 
> but aggression is NOT endearing whether its' towards humans or other dogs ...yep it may well have served a purpose in days gone by when dog fighting, bullbaiting and flock guarding were extensively carried out but hand on heart how appropriate is it to retain those characteristics now ? -
> 
> ...


Yes but my point is aggression is not bred into Akitas or Staffs etc or any other breed for that matter. No dog enjoys being aggressive as it causes stress. They are simply bred to stand their ground be brave, courageous and confident..and yes those traits are endearing. Why would you breed confidence out of a breed?

Akitas are typically aloof but that in my opinion is to do with their independent nature. An independent mind bring out a beautiful character and personality in the breed and that too in my mind is endearing.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JonoBeagle said:


> Well there is another thread about that rescue that is a case in point! So it is an aggressive unworkable breed? No, the dog got no love and affection and was stressed! Hence odd thoughts... It is always the dogs fault but never the owners!
> 
> Due to my work and wanting to preserve my liver, I am having a dry period. My wife was drinking; some friends were over and my wife put his water bowl in a place where Boris always jumps off the bed! He jumped straight into the water bowl. Everyone was angry with Boris, I was angry with my wife! She should know better.
> 
> ...


I don't know what Bob Marley looks like but, although I don't see many newfies, I have been told by some owners that their dogs do not like other dogs. Now that, to me, is a ridiculous statement, as newfie adore other dogs. The point I am making is that because of their size and their strength people panic when they go near another dog and won't let them socialise. Yes, it is hard. They can do a lot of damage to a small dog without meaning to, but they still need socialising. If you are talking about the Old English Sheepdog, I imagine it is the same story.



5rivers79 said:


> Yes but my point is aggression is not bred into Akitas or Staffs etc or any other breed for that matter. No dog enjoys being aggressive as it causes stress. They are simply bred to stand their ground be brave, courageous and confident..and yes those traits are endearing. Why would you breed confidence out of a breed?
> 
> Akitas are typically aloof but that in my opinion is to do with their independent nature. An independent mind bring out a beautiful character and personality in the breed and that too in my mind is endearing.


Most of those old working breeds have similar traits of aloofness and independence. Even newfie can be independent, though rarely aloof, because they too were bred to work on their own initiative.


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## tezmania (Dec 7, 2011)

This is just so sad and it makes me angry.Why so many people write about aggression and then staffies?I do not understand it.The most dangerous dogs top 10 list in UK It's owned by completely different breeds than staffies.Guess what they are even NOT in top 10 !!!so why people are giving staffies bad name?what for ?Maybe because of irresponsible ppl who use them for wrong purposes or maybe because of the bite damage as it can be fatal. ALL DOGS CAN BITE.I owned few breeds before and I got staffy girl at the moment,attending agility,pubs, friends with kids etc.No sign of aggression!
I take it like lets not make fast cars because they can kill people.Same what u r actually saying about staffies.It doesn't solve the problem.People still can breed other other dogs with same or similar power.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tezmania said:


> This is just so sad and it makes me angry.Why so many people write about aggression and then staffies?I do not understand it.The most dangerous dogs top 10 list in UK It's owned by completely different breeds than staffies.Guess what they are even NOT in top 10 !!!so why people are giving staffies bad name?what for ?Maybe because of irresponsible ppl who use them for wrong purposes or maybe because of the bite damage as it can be fatal. ALL DOGS CAN BITE.I owned few breeds before and I got staffy girl at the moment,attending agility,pubs, friends with kids etc.No sign of aggression!
> I take it like lets not make fast cars because they can kill people.Same what u r actually saying about staffies.It doesn't solve the problem.People still can breed other other dogs with same or similar power.


The people who believe that staffies are naturally aggressive are the ones who read the newspapers, watch tv news and look no further. The fact that you see friendly staffies all over the place doesn't sink in, it says so in the paper so it must be right. It is the media that is to blame, as they are only interested in reporting staffie attacks, or rotties, gsd, dobermans. I expect it will be huskys next, what with the amount of them about.

The reason dogs sometimes attack children is nearly always the same: they are left alone with a child they do not know. Adult stupidity is what causes these attacks, nothing else. Last year a little girl had her face half torn off by an Akita who was tied up. She had asked the owners before stroking the dog, was told yes, he's fine. But those people had only had him two days from a rescue; they had no idea whether he was all right.

My new newfie girl, aged 3 1/2 has never had contact with children. A man with a toddler asked if she was ok to stroke and I said, I have no idea, wait till I get there. She was fine as it happens, being a well raised gentle breed, but I was not prepared to assure him she would be ok.

People are stupid, believe everything they read in the papers and repeat it so that everyone follows like sheep.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

To the best of my knowledge, I am not aware of a single breed standard that has aggression towards anything as a requirement.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this society, I do not believe that we should be breeding dogs that have breed traits which relate to aggression.
> Staffies for example are renowned for dog aggression. IMO dog aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred,
> only dogs with good temperaments should be bred.
> Akitas are renowned for stranger-aggression. IMO stranger-aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred.


what a crock. A *TRAIT* is not engraved in stone, it can be influenced to be minimized or maximized.

AGGRESSION is normal in all species, to some extent - self-defense is aggression, is it not?

a Beagle will kill a rabbit, a JRT will wipe-out a whole collection of pocket-pets, a cat will kill a budgie 
as fast as it would kill a mouse on the kitchen-floor, given the chance.

we cannot ELIMINATE aggro; we can direct it, we can elicit it, we can reduce it or intensify it. 
but we cannot CUT IT OUT - it's not a part we can surgically remove.

Even a Cavalier will kill a rabbit, if the dog catches one, or a chick, duckling, or other small animal - 
and a CKCS is about as far from classically 'aggressive' as it's possible to get, in dog-breeds. 


SEVEN_PETS said:


> In this modern society, the vast majority of dogs are kept as pets and as such need to fit into our lifestyle
> and our way of living. Most owners aren't experienced dog trainers and therefore trying to train a breed
> of dog which already has an aggressive trait, into a well rounded pet is very difficult and sometimes impossible,
> which is why many dogs end up in rescue centres.


then don't let ignorant asshats buy guarding breeds - 
or equally-ignorant asshats breed & sell them. :thumbup1: Simple.

force everyone who WANTS a guarding breed, an LGB, a hunter of game [sighthound, etc], 
to TAKE A TEST, pay mandatory insurance, etc, so that any bites or damage to other animals or persons 
is covered by their liability.

it's not the DOGS who are the problem - it's the eejits who buy, breed, fail to socialize or habituate, 
REFUSE to leash or fence, & so forth & so on. 


SEVEN_PETS said:


> Although breeders will say "its the way the breed is", I don't buy this. We live in a very different society
> than we did when these breeds were created. Many dogs do not have a job or purpose now, other than... family pet.
> IMO there is no room for guard dogs, or dogs with aggressive traits when the vast majority of pups born from
> these breeds will be pets & need to live in a tight community, with many dogs and people around them.


and where are working dogs to come from?

import them all from specialist breeders, overseas? 
then quality-control is lost - It's well-known that German GSD-breeders don't SELL their best stock overseas, 
why would they? The exports are 2nd-best, the cream of the crop stays home.


SEVEN_PETS said:


> Breeding these traits into dogs is a disaster. I admit that if you train any breed of dog correctly, *none will be
> aggressive*...


bulls***.

it isn't ONLY breeding; it's rearing, training, socializing / habituating, & more.


SEVEN_PETS said:


> ...the vast majority of dog-owners can't handle such breeds or traits & therefore there's far more likely
> chance of the dog attacking and being put to sleep if there is already an aggressive trait bred into it.


& that is the DOG's fault?...

or the fool who failed to leash, fence, socialize / habituate, train, & control?


SEVEN_PETS said:


> All breeding dogs MUST have a superb temperament, very friendly to people, strangers, children, other dogs,
> & other animals. Breeding from dogs with far from perfect temperament is just asking for trouble,
> whatever the breed standard says.


Seven, 
IMO & IME, this is a ridiculous statement in it's entirety - 
and YOU appear both prejudiced & ignorant to have made that statement.

YOUR dog is a hunting breed; he would cheerfully kill every chicken in a pen, if he once got into a pen 
full of poultry, with enthusiasm. He'd slaughter the rabbits in a coop, too - with glee & joy.

if the only QUALIFICATION for the tag 'aggressive' is whether the dog would BITE a person or another dog, 
then all dogs are aggressive, as EVERY DOG WILL BITE - what matters is _*under what circumstances 
a particular dog is willing to bite,*_ which varies widely - *& fear is the most common trigger.*

some dogs will bite the vet, the groomer, or the dog-walker because they've had bad experiences; 
some dogs bite any stranger who tries to touch them, because the fool who owns that dog never socialized 
the dog. We cannot LEGISLATE idiocy out of existence. We cannot BREED 'aggression' out of dogs - 
as it's normal.

how old are U, now? :001_huh: At some point, childhood fantasies have to be left behind, & logic and reason 
must become the mental-tools we use, not magical thinking, fairy-dust & wishful "oughta-be" demands.

throwing a temper-tantrum & banning all aggression is ridiculous; it exists, in HUMANS as well as dogs. 
YOU are exhibiting some profound aggro, in deciding to eliminate all the breeds that YOU label 'aggro'. 
that's some serious chutzpah, kid - time to rein-in the Ego, IMO.


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## JonoBeagle (Nov 1, 2011)

Leashed,

You got me thinking; maybe we should selectively breed humans as well! 
Oh; I forgot we can't do that!  any dog can be aggressive; most aggression comes from fear... Confident dogs are not fearful!

The problem is not with the dog, or cat or pig, or snake that one may choose to have as a pet but as I have said before *it is the owner* who has to understand what is required in dog handling! For example, Boris will nibble at us to get our attention... Does that make him aggressive? No, it makes him an attention seeker! The nibbling is how he gets his attention... Some may call it biting but he isn't being aggressive; just like your biting in the groomers or the vets examples. So how do you combat the attention seeking! Give him more attention so he gets stimulation and move on! Somehow nobody seems to think in this way anymore! A dog showing teeth is a demon... Before realising that how is a dog who doesn't speak our language communicate? No just with us but with other dogs! Through barking, whining and showing their teeth.

If Boris has had enough of rough and tumble with another dog; whether he likes the dog or not, he will lie down and show his teeth! Even to his friends... What he is saying is "No, rough and tumble"; only "Chasing". He isn't being aggressive there he is communicating.

If he sees a dog he doesn't like the look of or is unsure of, he will splutter and growl gently. Does that make him aggressive? No, he is communicatin that he is not comfortable... And you move away.

It is beggars belief how many owners don't understand some very basic ways of communicating! One also forgets how they play! With their teeth; hence why we have tug ropes so they bite the rope and not out children's hands!

Newfiesmum,

The breed is from Eastern Europe and they have dreadlocks for hair and are black. They look very cool but I only know of two! One which my friend owns and one who used the same VET as us in Tokyo.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

*Newfiesmum,

The breed is from Eastern Europe and they have dreadlocks for hair and are black. They look very cool but I only know of two! One which my friend owns and one who used the same VET as us in Tokyo.*

You don't mean the Komondor do you? That is the only one I can think of with dreadlocks, looks like a mop. If so, it is a giant breed, but a livestock guardian so needs a lot of socialisation to get on with other dogs.

I think most problems are caused by people forgetting that they are dogs. No matter how well trained, no matter how reliable we think they are, they are still dogs.

Last week I saw a huge Akita standing on the pavement, all on his own beside a busy road, while his owner was in the front garden of one of the houses. I thought, how stupid. He is a dog, and to leave him standing there alone where he could perhaps see a cat on the other side of the road was just downright irresponsible.

I know that neither of my dogs would bite anybody, especially a child. But I still wouldn't chance leaving them alone with one. They are gentle giants, through and through, but they are still dogs and if some brat hurts or frightens them, they will probably retaliate.

Last week I heard about a newfoundland, 16 months old, given up to rescue because "he is aggressive to children" Do what? Turned out the kid had abruptly woken him from a deep sleep and he had snapped. Wouldn't you? Now he has a label of "child biter" so could make it difficult to rehome.


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## JonoBeagle (Nov 1, 2011)

There is another one! Who is the Komondor's cousin. 

Similar looks, but about the size of a Beagle and generally black hair! 

They are apparently often working together. One as a look-out and the other as guardian. I always forget the name but it is different.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2011)

JonoBeagle said:


> There is another one! Who is the Komondor's cousin.
> 
> Similar looks, but about the size of a Beagle and generally black hair!
> 
> They are apparently often working together. One as a look-out and the other as guardian. I always forget the name but it is different.


Hungarian Puli?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JonoBeagle said:


> There is another one! Who is the Komondor's cousin.
> 
> Similar looks, but about the size of a Beagle and generally black hair!
> 
> They are apparently often working together. One as a look-out and the other as guardian. I always forget the name but it is different.


There is one that begins with a B, Bergo.........something or other. I think Spellweaver on here used to have them or does still have them. Perhaps that is the one.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Bergamasco, their coats don't seem to be quite as rope like as the other two.


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## JonoBeagle (Nov 1, 2011)

Hungarian Puli is the breed I was lookIng for!


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> To the best of my knowledge, I am not aware of a single breed standard that has aggression towards anything as a requirement.


Im sure that the Fila Brasileiro's breed standard says something like aggression towards a judge in a show ring is not considered a fault? Its not a requirement of the breed standard but its a bout as close to this as your going to get.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

multiple breeds are LOOK - DON'T - TOUCH in the breed ring - 
most are rare working-breeds which hunt big-game, protect property or livestock, etc: 
the Fila, Dogo, Tibetan Mastiff, Kangal, Anatolian, Jindo, Ovtcharka, Thai Ridgeback, & others. 

if an APO buys one from an unscrupulous or unethical breeder, there's sod-all we can do about it.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> Im sure that the Fila Brasileiro's breed standard says something like aggression towards a judge in a show ring is not considered a fault? Its not a requirement of the breed standard but its a bout as close to this as your going to get.


I've had a look at the FCI standard and it says aggression is a disqualifying fault.


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## snipeblade (Nov 2, 2011)

mack my SBT has only two breed traits that i can see, one is that he is an aggressive farter, and two he,s a cross dresser,stockings, suspenders and stillettoes the whole nine yards,now this worried me slightly for when he goes for his walk people may say he has jordan lookalike aggression,now i couldn,t muzzle him because it would smudge his lipstick, so i took him along to my psycho and he has prescribed prozac. he,s much much better now, in fact ,strangely he,s a staffordshire bull terrier knowing in his own mind that he is in fact aggressiveless due to the prozac and he no longer has any traits ,farting gone,cross dressing gone ,aggression gone ,so now he can spend the rest of his days happy in the fact that he will be bullied for the rest of his life because humans took his traits away.............somebody please show me an animal, any animal, with a perfect 10....people need to stop trying to make the dog anything other than a dog.!!!!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> multiple breeds are LOOK - DON'T - TOUCH in the breed ring -
> most are rare working-breeds which hunt big-game, protect property or livestock, etc:
> the Fila, Dogo, Tibetan Mastiff, Kangal, Anatolian, Jindo, Ovtcharka, Thai Ridgeback, & others.
> 
> if an APO buys one from an unscrupulous or unethical breeder, there's sod-all we can do about it.


Ovcharkas are handled by judges in the ring, aggression towards the judge will see the dog removed from the ring.
Infact, alot of "old school" breeders are complaining of show lines only having dog/dog aggression and not dog/human


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

snipeblade said:


> mack my SBT has only two breed traits that i can see, one is that he is an aggressive farter, and two he,s a cross dresser,stockings, suspenders and stillettoes the whole nine yards,now this worried me slightly for when he goes for his walk people may say he has jordan lookalike aggression,now i couldn,t muzzle him because it would smudge his lipstick, so i took him along to my psycho and he has prescribed prozac. he,s much much better now, in fact ,strangely he,s a staffordshire bull terrier knowing in his own mind that he is in fact aggressiveless due to the prozac and he no longer has any traits ,farting gone,cross dressing gone ,aggression gone ,so now he can spend the rest of his days happy in the fact that he will be bullied for the rest of his life because humans took his traits away.............somebody please show me an animal, any animal, with a perfect 10....people need to stop trying to make the dog anything other than a dog.!!!!


Dad you have a crazy way of making a valid point lol xx


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I just wanted to say that I read the first page of this, and I'm too angry to type a coherent response. I'll give it a shot anyway.

How DARE you say there is no place for guarding breeds! Many of our guarding breeds are still worked today. I have a guarding breed, one with the CORRECT temperament according to the standard and let me tell you it's the pet bred "ohh he's just such a big softy" GSDs that end up being aggressive. The guarding breeds are supposed to have strong nerves, this means they do NOT react out of fear, and as we know most cases of aggression are down to fear.

Look at all the cases of aggressive dogs you've ever seen. The majority of them are pet bred. "Oh she just had such a nice temperament so I thought we should have a litter out of her" - say they did the health tests etc. That's the kind of breeder you want? Most people are NOT qualified to judge a breed's temperament. 

As for the staffies? What an utterly ridiculous statement to make. Only dog fighters are breeding for dog aggression - and it's not something that has to be said on this forum that we don't want those dogs being bred. I don't see the point of your statement about staffies? You want all dogs to be bred with the same temperament in mind? Why don't we just go back a load of mongrels then. What would be the POINT in having separate breeds if none of them can do anything differently.

As much as I love the way my dog looks, it's the temperament that attracted me to the breed. How dare you think about taking that away from us good owners because of the egits that don't deserve to own dogs.

Instead of wasting time on that, why not look into a better control system for dog ownership.

I am actually f***ing livid right now.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Shrap said:


> I just wanted to say that I read the first page of this, and I'm too angry to type a coherent response. I'll give it a shot anyway.
> 
> How DARE you say there is no place for guarding breeds! Many of our guarding breeds are still worked today. I have a guarding breed, one with the CORRECT temperament according to the standard and let me tell you it's the pet bred "ohh he's just such a big softy" GSDs that end up being aggressive. The guarding breeds are supposed to have strong nerves, this means they do NOT react out of fear, and as we know most cases of aggression are down to fear.
> 
> ...


Here, here! :thumbup1:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shrap said:


> I just wanted to say that I read the first page of this, and I'm too angry to type a coherent response. I'll give it a shot anyway.
> 
> How DARE you say there is no place for guarding breeds! Many of our guarding breeds are still worked today. I have a guarding breed, one with the CORRECT temperament according to the standard and let me tell you it's the pet bred "ohh he's just such a big softy" GSDs that end up being aggressive. The guarding breeds are supposed to have strong nerves, this means they do NOT react out of fear, and as we know most cases of aggression are down to fear.
> 
> ...


Don't get your blood pressure up! This thread was started some nine months ago; perhaps the OP has learned a few things since then.

We should definitely only be breeding newfoundlands and other soppy, gentle dogs then, shouldn't we? Forget gundogs, guard dogs, tracker dogs, drug finding dogs, guide dogs, other assistance dogs - all sorts of dogs who need all their character traits to do their jobs.

As I said in an earlier post, we should all go for android dogs, then we can have them all the same and just go for the looks.

Just thought, let's have them all the same size as well shall we? Then we won't have idiots bringing back giant breeds because they got too big, or people being insulted about their toy breeds because they are so small. Yes, let's all be exactly the same. How boring!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Japan Gadget Shop | iPod Dock & Speakers | Sega Toys Dream Dog DX Golden Retriever


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Well, seeing as how the most likely to bite dog breeds are Daschshunds, Chihuahuas and JRTs we probably shouldnt have toy breeds either!! (in case they turn savage and rip our ankles to shreds!!)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Clare7435 said:


> Japan Gadget Shop | iPod Dock & Speakers | Sega Toys Dream Dog DX Golden Retriever


That it. We'll all have one of those. They won't bite us or anyone else, won't need socialising, won't attack other dogs and I won't have to go out in the cold to walk him.

Great idea!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Clare7435 said:


> Japan Gadget Shop | iPod Dock & Speakers | Sega Toys Dream Dog DX Golden Retriever


OMG!! I really want one! (it reminds me of Dagget in Battlestar Galactica!LOL)


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Forget gundogs, guard dogs, tracker dogs, drug finding dogs, guide dogs, other assistance dogs - all sorts of dogs who need all their character traits to do their jobs.


 Slightly over egging the pudding I think !! - why on earth would we *need* to breed out characteristics that make good assistance , guide or tracker dogs and most gun dogs have wonderful temperaments !

But you simply cannot ignore the glorification of aggression that has led to breeds such as Staffs etc being used and abused up and down the country - and it's not just the inner city yob that thinks 'gameness' is a desirable trait - in the show world we STILL have terrier exhibitors who show their dogs face on to try and get them to spark off each other - why ?- well I can only think it's because they continue to value bit of dog aggression in their breeds !!

Only a tiny handful of dogs REALLY need to guard and these should be bred and owned by those that truly work them - the rest in my opinion should be made fit to live as part of society and this means breeding dogs that will be sociable to others of their own species and are not a liability whenever a stranger comes to the door !.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Bijou said:


> Slightly over egging the pudding I think !! - why on earth would we *need* to breed out characteristics that make good assistance , guide or tracker dogs and most gun dogs have wonderful temperaments !
> 
> But you simply cannot ignore the glorification of aggression that has led to breeds such as Staffs etc being used and abused up and down the country - and it's not just the inner city yob that thinks 'gameness' is a desirable trait - in the show world we STILL have terrier exhibitors who show their dogs face on to try and get them to spark off each other - why ?- well I can only think it's because they continue to value bit of dog aggression in their breeds !!
> 
> Only a tiny handful of dogs REALLY need to guard and these should be bred and owned by those that truly work them - the rest in my opinion should be made fit to live as part of society and this means breeding dogs that will be sociable to others of their own species and are not a liability whenever a stranger comes to the door !.


I don't know that it is exaggerating; we all need all of our personality traits to be who we are and the same goes for dogs.

I am certainly not defending the idiots who get tough looking dogs and make them aggressive, but the fact remains that any dog, no matter what its inbred aggression traits, can be made into a loving pet.

If I had a GSD for instance, it would be a loving, friendly dog to all those it meets, but if someone comes to the door who I don't trust, I would want that guarding instinct to appear. I wouldn't want him to attack unnecessarily, but I would still want it to show.

I used to have a mongrel who had all sorts in, among those breeds was german shepherd. I don't know if this is what made him such a super guard dog, but he certainly was that with no training whatsoever. He was fine with visitors, unless he thought I didn't trust them, then he would sit and growl. And he would not let anyone in the house if the children were there alone, even if they were invited. When my daughter was 16 she decided to have a party whilst we were away overnight - the dog would not let the boys in. He let the girls in, but the boys had to stay outside.

If that intelligence and intuitiveness was in his breeding, whatever it was, I would most certainly not want to change it.


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I am certainly not defending the idiots who get tough looking dogs and make them aggressive, but the fact remains that any dog, no matter what its inbred aggression traits, can be made into a loving pet.
> 
> If I had a GSD for instance, it would be a loving, friendly dog to all those it meets, but if someone comes to the door who I don't trust, I would want that guarding instinct to appear. I wouldn't want him to attack unnecessarily, but I would still want it to show.


Exactly, 99.9% of those idiots you mention only want dog on dog aggression anyway.

A service dog with those traits would be usless. The first drug bust it attends that has an aggresive owner and dog, the policeman is on his own while the dogs fight.

Same goes for tracking.

Now I want a dog that protects me, my family and my property. No dog on dog nonsense.

I dont want a dog that could be stolen from my garden. Anyone tried that with my two......prepare for whirlwind and a rough ride!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Paganman said:


> Exactly, 99.9% of those idiots you mention only want dog on dog aggression anyway.
> 
> A service dog with those traits would be usless. The first drug bust it attends that has an aggresive owner and dog, the policeman is on his own while the dogs fight.
> 
> ...


Mine will protect me, but I am not sure they would bother protecting my property! No one could steal Ferdie as he won't budge off his bum with anyone else, just sits his 12 stone down and refuses to move! I have always had a soft spot for German Shepherds, and I would hate to see that allertness and intuitiveness bred out of them. One could really feel safe walking down the street with one of those. I feel safe with mine, but only because of their size - everybody gets out of the way.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Bijou said:


> But you simply cannot ignore the glorification of aggression that has led to breeds such as Staffs etc being used and abused up and down the country because they continue to value dog aggression in their breeds!
> 
> Only a tiny handful of dogs REALLY need to guard and these should be bred and owned by those that truly work them - the rest in my opinion should be made fit to live as part of society and this means breeding dogs that will be sociable to others of their own species and are not a liability.


Very true! I'm in full agreement with you and I'm tired of the flood of videos on YouTube portraying the type of Dog we chose to keep, for example, as a child eating, man mauling monster. It's about time these idiots who run the site deleted/disallowed all such clips but it seems they're quite happy to perpetuate the image.

However, to post an anti breed specific thread on a forum where folks are known to own and keep this type of animal was totally unnecessary and completely thoughtless. 
I would like to think all members of PF's are more responsible than the world wide imbeciles who post on YT.

Oscar and Zara are Sarplaninacs. They are Pets only. 
They do not work and we had no intention to work them. They are very well socialised and very well behaved out in the public arena but you simply cannot or will not breed instinct out of a Dog.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Please look at the time the thread was posted please. I started this many months ago (don't really know why its been dug up from the depths), but I do think differently to how I did then, so please don't have a go at me. 

I was in a bad place back then, I left the forum for a while to re-assess myself and I've come back a better person.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Please look at the time the thread was posted please. I started this many months ago (don't really know why its been dug up from the depths), but I do think differently to how I did then, so please don't have a go at me.
> 
> I was in a bad place back then, I left the forum for a while to re-assess myself and I've come back a better person.


I thought that might be the case. Anyway, it has got people debating again, which is always good.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Ovcharkas are handled by judges in the ring, aggro towards the judge will see the dog removed from the ring.
> In *fact*, a *lot* of 'old-school' breeders [complain that] show lines [exhibit] dog/dog aggro... not dog/human


 A - U're in the UK; i'm in the USA. 

B - under ARBA rules, the largest & longest-established USA Rare-breeds Registry, the Ovtcharka is LOOK-Only; 
so are the Fila & several others.

Caucasian Sheepdog - ARBA standard
EXCERPT - *bold added:*


> _GENERAL APPEARANCE :
> The shepherd dogs from the Caucasus are dogs of superior size to the average & large-size dogs,
> of robust & even coarse constitution; *by nature, they are aggressive and distrustful of strangers.*
> 
> ...


 C - i don't know if human-aggro behavior or dog-aggro behavior vary between USA & UK show-lines.

Bedlingtons are notorious here for dog-aggro, & Scotties are infamous for dog-aggro & even-worse 
for male-to-male aggro. Bouvier, Malemutes, Russian Giant-Schnauzer are also known for M:M aggro, 
& dog-aggro in general; Bouvier additionally CAN BE human-aggro, but one would hope that anyone who 
intended to show their Bouv would have brains-enuf to super-socialize the dog from an early age!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Clare7435*
> 
> Japan Gadget Shop | iPod Dock & Speakers | Sega Toys Dream Dog DX Golden Retriever





newfiesmum said:


> That it. We'll all have one of those. They won't bite us or anyone else, won't need socialising,
> won't attack other dogs and I won't have to go out in the cold to walk him.
> 
> Great idea!


yes! :thumbup1: no poop-detail, either; The Chesapeake Bay would be much-cleaner, as would our rivers, 
streams, parks, footpaths, sidewalks, ... :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't know that it is exaggerating; we all need all of our personality traits to be who we are, & the same goes for dogs.
> 
> I am certainly not defending the idiots who get tough-looking dogs & make them aggressive, but the fact remains
> that any dog, no matter what its inbred aggression traits, can be made into a loving pet.


i wouldn't take a Thunderhawk Ovtcharka as a free gift, not if i the pup came with their food, vet-care, 
liability-insurance, & 2-weeks of annual boarding paid in full for life. 
i would not make a $2 bet that i could make a dog of her breeding into a 'loving pet' for myself, 
let alone safe to handle on-leash in public without a muzzle... just in case.

this is of course entirely IMO & IME - just sayin.



newfiesmum said:


> If I had a GSD for instance, it would be a loving, friendly dog to all those it meets, but if someone comes
> to the door who I don't trust, I would want that guarding instinct to appear. I wouldn't want him to attack
> unnecessarily, but I would still want it to show.
> 
> ...


what a brilliant dog - i agree, not something i'd discard. :thumbup1: Good boy!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> what a brilliant dog - i agree, not something i'd discard. :thumbup1: Good boy!


He was the one we got at only four weeks old. Evil cow was selling the whole litter for medical experiments.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I thought that might be the case. Anyway, it has got people debating again, which is always good.


And you learn new things as well. I had never heard of Thunderhawk Ovtcharka.

I still can't pronounce it mind


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> And you learn new things as well. I had never heard of Thunderhawk Ovtcharka.
> 
> I still can't pronounce it mind


Can't say I have either. I have heard about the Ovcharka group, but not specifically the Thunderhawk. I will have to look him up.

I think it is being sensible and knowing what you can offer a dog. If it is one of the livestock guardian group, you are going to need lots of isolated space I think and really know the breed, as Zaros has proved it can be done.

But anyone who thinks they can get one of these dogs and keep them in the house and walking on a lead like any other dog, is asking for trouble. They are specialised, no doubt about it.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Please look at the time the thread was posted please. I started this many months ago (don't really know why its been dug up from the depths), but I do think differently to how I did then, so please don't have a go at me.
> 
> I was in a bad place back then, I left the forum for a while to re-assess myself and I've come back a better person.


But you have brought up a good indirect point...

Staffies (as they are the breed of choice for the chavs at present) can be a problem for us. They can make walks a misery, when you have ones which are out of control.

People argue that any dog can bite and cause injury, but a lab or a chi or spaniel is not going to do the damage.

Staffies, having been bred for fighting originally, can go into this state if they feel the need to. Although the fighting trait is no longer bred specifically into them, they do still have it. A lab may start a fight, as may any dog, but few breeds will finish it as a staffy can.

I was unfortunate enough to see a dog fight earlier this week, and I can understand people's perception of staffies when they only see/hear the worst.

All dogs should have licences, but particuarly the stronger more challenging breeds.

========================================================

For anyone reading this who doesn't know me. I have a rescue staffy x and I also volunteer my time for a staffy rescue. They are my favourite breed and I'd happily own as many as I could.

So please do not think I am putting the breed down. I am just being realistic...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Can't say I have either. I have heard about the Ovcharka group, but not specifically the Thunderhawk. I will have to look him up.
> 
> I think it is being sensible and knowing what you can offer a dog. If it is one of the livestock guardian group, you are going to need lots of isolated space I think and really know the breed, as Zaros has proved it can be done.
> 
> But anyone who thinks they can get one of these dogs and keep them in the house and walking on a lead like any other dog, is asking for trouble. They are specialised, no doubt about it.


And as I said in my post below, these types of dogs need a licence. Bad state of affairs in this country that you can go and buy a dog like this with no training.

We have a whole culture of irresponsible, "I want it now" attitude.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I've heard about the Ovcharka group, but not specifically the Thunderhawk. I will have to look him up.


U remember her dog, Newf-Mum - 
she's the BREEDER who 'temp-tests' her pups for aggro at 5-WO? *Thunderhawk* is her kennel-name. 
She advertises her dogs as _'the stopping power of a Magnum, with a brain...'_ or similar #$%&@!.

a C-O of her breeding was among the "stars" in the TV-documentary on dogs, a 150# shaggy male who dragged 
his 6-ft, 2-inch male owner across his home-lawn to threaten a passing car?... Remember him?

he was hard to forget; the dog IMO was an untrained, barely-restrained menace, & the owner was an eejit. :nonod:


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

At the end of the day agree or not Any Breed of Dog can be aggressive. Each individual breed has both good and bad traits its the nature of the breeds we own as most if not all our dogs come from working dogs back in the day be it from hearding, ratting, bull baiting and so on.

Anyone that likes to read then this is a good book which i am reading at present, yes it covers Pit bulls BUT it also covers all the dogs which hunted by media. This book really is a huge eye opener in to just how the media can have a profound effect on how the public see any breed of dog

Pit Bulls: Villains or Victims?



> This forensic study of pit bulls and violence in society by B.G. Boucher, MFS is an educational journey through the history of dangerous dogs, breed-specific legislation (BSL), and pit bull mythology. Through her research, Boucher highlights the fact that BSL causes us to focus on the victim, not the violent people who would cause dogs to act against their nature, thus not creating any real safety in our communities. She also makes a strong case for carefully examining news stories about vicious pit bulls, as they are often part of an inescapable loop of misreporting, intentionally or unintentionally, to sell headlines. Ultimately, Bouchers research causes any thinking person to reevaluate their opinion of pit bulls and convincingly demonstrates that by focusing our efforts on outlawing this unfairly demonized breed (or any other breed, for that matter), we are completely missing our opportunity to protect our society from the real villains at the other end of the leash, or sadly, the chain.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> U remember her dog, Newf-Mum -
> she's the BREEDER who 'temp-tests' her pups for aggro at 5-WO? *Thunderhawk* is her kennel-name.
> She advertises her dogs as _'the stopping power of a Magnum, with a brain...'_ or similar #$%&@!.
> 
> ...


Never saw it. But I have seen many websites dedicated to these livestock guardians by the owners and breeders of such dogs, giving their characters quite openly but playing down the guarding instinct to the point of saying they can make great pets.

I would never do such an irresponsible thing. If you know your breed, you have to warn people that they are not for everybody. I chose a breed which would be happy living with my OTT son, which would love all the fuss, and which would fit in with my lifestyle. Being as they have been bred for years to rescue people, they are not given to any sort of aggression or guarding instinct. Even if called on to protect you, their way is to form a barrier between me and whoever they don't like. Ferdie has done this with my daughter, and he just wasn't going to let her get any closer to the bloke she didn't like the look of. Every time she tried to walk passed him, he moved to block her path.

But even newfies are not for everyone. Whenever I am asked what they are like, I always start off with the bad points, well bad to others perhaps. I don't think they have any bad points, but that is just me


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Never saw it. But I have seen many websites dedicated to these livestock guardians by the owners and breeders of such dogs, giving their characters quite openly but playing down the guarding instinct to the point of saying they can make great pets.
> 
> I would never do such an irresponsible thing. If you know your breed, you have to warn people that they are not for everybody. I chose a breed which would be happy living with my OTT son, which would love all the fuss, and which would fit in with my lifestyle. Being as they have been bred for years to rescue people, they are not given to any sort of aggression or guarding instinct. Even if called on to protect you, their way is to form a barrier between me and whoever they don't like. Ferdie has done this with my daughter, and he just wasn't going to let her get any closer to the bloke she didn't like the look of. Every time she tried to walk passed him, he moved to block her path.
> 
> But even newfies are not for everyone. Whenever I am asked what they are like, I always start off with the bad points, well bad to others perhaps. I don't think they have any bad points, but that is just me


They sound like a really lovely breed. I have not had the pleasure of meeting any yet. Maybe one day... :thumbup1:


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## JKD (Nov 14, 2011)

Having just logged on and read the first comment on this topic I'd just like to say I've never read such rubbish.

As an Akita owner all my life your comment is just....

Like I'm sure so many people have said here already. ANY breed of dog is what you make them and ANY breed can be agressive. 

Get over yourself.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JKD said:


> Having just logged on and read the first comment on this topic I'd just like to say I've never read such rubbish.
> 
> As an Akita owner all my life your comment is just....
> 
> ...


Then you probably missed the post by the original poster admitting that she had learned a lot since posting this thread nine months ago.

Whatever the dog's breed traits, in my opinion, they should not be eliminated to suit the needs of human beings. I would like to see some of the traits bred out of human beings, myself. Like the swamplife who raped and battered a one month old baby.

Why should animals accommodate these creatures?

If aggressive breeds should be eliminated, that is the human race gone for a start. Well, at least a large chunk of them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> They sound like a really lovely breed. I have not had the pleasure of meeting any yet. Maybe one day... :thumbup1:


If you are ever up Cambridge way, I have two here longing to meet you. All you need bring is lots of cuddles


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Then you probably missed the post by the original poster admitting that she had learned a lot since posting this thread nine months ago.
> 
> Whatever the dog's breed traits, in my opinion, they should not be eliminated to suit the needs of human beings. I would like to see some of the traits bred out of human beings, myself. Like the swamplife who raped and battered a one month old baby.
> 
> ...


My god I couldn't agree more...the worst and most dangerous animals of all is the human


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> If you are ever up Cambridge way, I have two here longing to meet you. All you need bring is lots of cuddles


LOL. I'll keep it mind in case I get up there!. X


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> *Then you probably missed the post by the original poster admitting that she had learned a lot since posting this thread nine months ago.*
> 
> Whatever the dog's breed traits, in my opinion, they should not be eliminated to suit the needs of human beings. I would like to see some of the traits bred out of human beings, myself. Like the swamplife who raped and battered a one month old baby.
> 
> ...


well said. i said all in had to say 9 months ago on this, so i can't/won't add anything else.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RockRomantic said:


> well said. i said all in had to say 9 months ago on this, so i can't/won't add anything else.


Unfortunately it often happens that some really old posts get dug out and replied to, without anyone noticing the original date. Someone dug up an old thread asking for advice on training their Great Dane puppy and replied. The Dane was three years old by that time!

So anyone reading this, please do not simply read the original post and reply. It is not fair when the OP has already stated that her views have changed.

It has opened up an interesting debate again though.


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## snipeblade (Nov 2, 2011)

the human has by far the most aggressive trait of any animal,and completely guilty of instilling our misgivings in our dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Never saw it.


here's the clip on UTube - 
from _*'The Science of Dogs'*_ on Natl-Geo, 2007:

Caucasian shepherd dog National Geographic - YouTube


> title:
> Caucasian shepherd dog National Geographic


more on the C-O on UTube: 
documentary: dogs, Ovcharka - YouTube


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> here's the clip on UTube -
> from _*'The Science of Dogs'*_ on Natl-Geo, 2007:
> 
> Caucasian shepherd dog National Geographic - YouTube
> ...


I remember that program, it really riled me up 

And for reference I did see the original date before I replied the first time, but I was so angry and it had already been dug up by someone else lol.

I understad the OPs views have since changed


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> But you have brought up a good indirect point...
> 
> Staffies (as they are the breed of choice for the chavs at present) can be a problem for us. They can make walks a misery, when you have ones which are out of control.
> 
> ...


Sorry but labradors can do a lot of damage i believe that it was a labrador who attacked a women who had the first face transplant. 
Small dogs like chi's, pugs etc, cannot do as much damage as staffys, rottys, german sheps, labs etc but they can still attack and cause injury to a human or dog or other animal if they are not raised correctly. as said i think an animal is what you make it but even if you do have an agressive dog, wetaher that be human, dog or other animal we as owners are the ones who control our dogs if we know they do not like other dogs etc we are the ones responsible too ensure they do not hurt anyone and take the ness steps to do so. This is why its wrong when people say its the dogs fault if it gets attacked but an on lead dog as the dog went up to the other no its the owners fault they should not have allowed there dog offlead with obv no recall.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> ...Labradors can do a lot of damage; i believe... it was a Lab who attacked [the French] woman
> who had the [world's] first face-transplant.


yes - 
it was her own dog, a pet with no known previous-aggro history. Male - i don't know age 
nor his desex-status.

she was supposedly unconscious when the dog attacked her, which makes it even weirder. 
there was never any explanation of the circs - was she drunk, drugged, having a seizure?... 
no one ever said.

a Lab in New England killed an approx 10-YO girl a few years ago; he throttled her by pulling 
on HER SCARF - a 'game' they had previously played, IOW something *she had taught her dog.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> yes -
> it was her own dog, a pet with no known previous-aggro history. Male - i don't know age
> nor his desex-status.
> 
> ...


I did read that the woman was unconscious and the dog was trying to wake her. I don't know how much truth there is in that, but it seems a more likely scenario. There was another story about a rottweiler attacking his owner in the street - turned out a similar thing. The man had collapsed and the dog was trying to wake him.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I did read that the woman was unconscious and *the dog was trying to wake her.*
> 
> I don't know how much truth there is in that, but it seems a more likely scenario.


When Ur dog tries to wake U... Does the dog BITE U, or nudge, bark, whine, etc?  


newfiesmum said:


> a Rott [supposedly attacked] his owner in the street - turned out a similar thing.
> The man had collapsed & the dog was trying to wake him.


i saw the video - it appeared the dog tried to drag him off, not to "wake" him, 
but people who approached the dog panicked him, & he began to threaten.

i think the elderly man had suffered a heart-attack, if i recall? In a crowded daytime shopping area, 
in London?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> When Ur dog tries to wake U... Does the dog BITE U, or nudge, bark, whine, etc?
> 
> i saw the video - it appeared the dog tried to drag him off, not to "wake" him,
> but people who approached the dog panicked him, & he began to threaten.
> ...


When I was living in the bungalow, Ferdie would climb on the bed and lick me round the chops! As I said, it is what I read. As to the rottie, I don't know the details.

I do find it hard to believe that, unless the dog has something wrong with him, he would turn on his owner. Of course if the dog had been ill treated by his owner, he might take the opportunity to get revenge! (joke)


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm still of the opinion that dogs are what we as owners make them, whether that be us or whoever has had the dog beforehand, no dog is untrainable and no dog turns for no reason, there has to be a reason behind it an unless someone comes up with some rock solid evidence to show me otherwise my opinion on this will not change.
Tex was in and out of rescue for the first 2 years of his life, he was bald all down his back when i first met him and he has bitten or shown aggression to all of the previous owners who just couldn't be arsed to persevere and help him, My boy is now almost 13 and aside one incident he is the softest dog you will meet...big and scary looking but only uses those nashers to tear up his morning chicken.....I myself would like to track down his origional owner and .....nah..better not write that


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Big scarey Tex....an the rescue centre where about to put him to sleep...what a fkn waste an this happens every day because HUMANS just can't be bothered


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Clare7435 said:


> I'm still of the opinion that dogs are what we as owners make them, whether that be us or whoever has had the dog beforehand, no dog is untrainable and no dog turns for no reason, there has to be a reason behind it an unless someone comes up with some rock solid evidence to show me otherwise my opinion on this will not change.
> Tex was in and out of rescue for the first 2 years of his life, he was bald all down his back when i first met him and he has bitten or shown aggression to all of the previous owners who just couldn't be arsed to persevere and help him, My boy is now almost 13 and aside one incident he is the softest dog you will meet...big and scary looking but only uses those nashers to tear up his morning chicken.....I myself would like to track down his origional owner and .....nah..better not write that


I quite agree, but people should still be careful what sort of breed they have for their own circumstances. I don't think any breed should be changed but care needs to be taken with the breed in the beginning. This is what does not happen. People buy dogs for their looks, or because the bloke down the road has got one. And let's face it, some people can ruin any dog, they really don't have a clue.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I quite agree, but people should still be careful what sort of breed they have for their own circumstances. I don't think any breed should be changed but care needs to be taken with the breed in the beginning. This is what does not happen. People buy dogs for their looks, or because the bloke down the road has got one. And let's face it, some people can ruin any dog, they really don't have a clue.


absolutely, when you get any dog a great deal of care should be taken to research the breed and find out what excercise/nutritional etc etc needs they have before you go into it, or in my case after I say yes to an unwanted face, but I know that I will put everything I have into that dog as not caring enough to turn things around is not an option for me, Fzz came to me in a state as did Tex, Penny was slightly different as she was only 5 weeks old and a result of yet another careless breeding but I chose none of them and didn't know a thing bout the breed before agreeing to take them on, but by god did i learn quickly as soon as I said yes and I'm so glad I did because without my dogs I would be miserable


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## snipeblade (Nov 2, 2011)

you are so right daughter of mine ,a chip off the old block me thinks....if this aggression thing comes out on staffords when they have a flashback to the good old days, why, please tell me , because if that was the case they,d be gloved up all the time. the staffords born over the last century are a blank canvas ,they know nothing of their fighting anscestry . people say to me that i,m just like my dad ,and i say, i may have his looks but i,m nothing like him,totally different in fact .....i smell a little stafford bash and its unfair to them.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

snipeblade said:


> you are so right daughter of mine ,a chip off the old block me thinks....if this aggression thing comes out on staffords when they have a flashback to the good old days, why, please tell me , because if that was the case they,d be gloved up all the time. the staffords born over the last century are a blank canvas ,they know nothing of their fighting anscestry . people say to me that i,m just like my dad ,and i say, i may have his looks but i,m nothing like him,totally different in fact .....i smell a little stafford bash and its unfair to them.


Mack is a prime example, you got him as a puppy and he will be what you make him....so next time he nibbles on my table leg or unties my shoe laces.....I shall put salt in your coffee


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## snipeblade (Nov 2, 2011)

Clare7435 said:


> Mack is a prime example, you got him as a puppy and he will be what you make him....so next time he nibbles on my table leg or unties my shoe laces.....I shall put salt in your coffee


and i shall put a chicken liver in yours.:cornut:


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## snipeblade (Nov 2, 2011)

beware the free range cockerell, they too have a fighting history ,so watch for a peck on your pecker.:biggrin:::biggrin:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Like you ever gonna make a cuppa HA


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Can't say I have either. I have heard about the Ovcharka group, but not specifically the Thunderhawk.


I have nothing good to say about the individuals in the enclosed link other than Tamara Follet (Bitch) does not breed and sell Dogs to animal lovers, she produces hardware and flogs it to paranoiacs (Mike) and guys with little Dicks (Mike).

Mike who has suffered penis envy all his life and has absolutely no control over his Dog will one day be dragged under an 18 wheeler. 
Nikolai will then be seen heading across the plain dragging the remains of his pathetic owner behind him closely followed by an armed Sheriff's posse or, worse still, the National Guard!

This video illustrates nothing more than animal abuse.

Caucasian mountain dog - YouTube


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Zaros said:


> I have nothing good to say about the individuals in the enclosed link other than Tamara Follet (Bitch) does not breed and sell Dogs to animal lovers, she produces hardware and flogs it to paranoiacs (Mike) and guys with little Dicks (Mike).
> 
> Mike who has suffered penis envy all his life and has absolutely no control over his Dog will one day be dragged under an 18 wheeler.
> Nikolai will then be seen heading across the plain dragging the remains of his pathetic owner behind him closely followed by an armed Sheriff's posse or, worse still, the National Guard!
> ...


:cursing::mad2:......Gobsmacked


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Sorry but labradors can do a lot of damage i believe that it was a labrador who attacked a women who had the first face transplant.
> Small dogs like chi's, pugs etc, cannot do as much damage as staffys, rottys, german sheps, labs etc but they can still attack and cause injury to a human or dog or other animal if they are not raised correctly. as said i think an animal is what you make it but even if you do have an agressive dog, wetaher that be human, dog or other animal we as owners are the ones who control our dogs if we know they do not like other dogs etc we are the ones responsible too ensure they do not hurt anyone and take the ness steps to do so. This is why its wrong when people say its the dogs fault if it gets attacked but an on lead dog as the dog went up to the other no its the owners fault they should not have allowed there dog offlead with obv no recall.


But a Labrador wouldn't do the kind of damage which a staffy would. The 
example you gave, is not only a one off, but there was a reason behind it. Anything which can do harm requires responsible ownership. Whether that be a gun, a pilot licence or a dog....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> But a Labrador wouldn't do the kind of damage which a staffy would. The
> example you gave, is not only a one off, but there was a reason behind it. Anything which can do harm requires responsible ownership. Whether that be a gun, a pilot licence or a dog....


The simple fact is that people tend to forget that they are dogs. No matter how well behaved, no matter how loving and gentle, they can easily become dogs given the right provocation.

You couldn't get more soppy dogs than my two. They love everybody, other dogs, other people, but I still wouldn't leave a strange child alone with them. People never seem to realise that the dog does not know it is a child, they just think of it as a stranger in their territory.

And dogs have a tendency to take a dislike to a certain individual for no apparent reason, just something the dog senses but we don't.


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## snipeblade (Nov 2, 2011)

i,m out of this thread and i,ll just have to accept that my mack is a monster , so its off to clip nails and file horns.:mad5:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok I try to resist getting involved in these conversations but I can't help it....I must....dispel....the...myths 

Damage will be a product of the dog being attacked (type of dog, size relative to the other dog, behaviour) and a product of the attacking dog's fighting M.O., as well as the socialisation and bite inhibition history of both dogs, the context of the fight, the human factor/s, the size of the dogs (particularly the amount of jaw pressure exerted which is determined by size).
There are too many factors to be able to isolate breed/type as the only, main or contributing criteria.

If you are only or predominantly around one type of dog statistically you are likely to see more issues with that type of dog relative to others. I would prefer to only work with bullies but alas I have to work with lots and lots of other types of dogs too 

All terriers, (bull, long leg, short leg etc.) require special socialisation around other dogs & animals especially in relation to same sex dog aggro. All sighthounds, short leg terriers, herding types, shepherd types, toy breeds and so on require extra socialisation with humans and children. The list goes on - all dogs have genetic predispositions and as such care must be taken in awareness and preparedness - that's what makes breeds special and why we are each attracted to certain types and so on. 
But what's much more important to understand is that humans are the biggest variable in our dog's lives.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> But a Labrador wouldn't do the kind of damage which a staffy would. The
> example you gave, is not only a one off, but there was a reason behind it. Anything which can do harm requires responsible ownership. Whether that be a gun, a pilot licence or a dog....


Labradors can do alot of damage still just because the damage they can cause isnt as much as what a stafford can dosnt mean they need any more of a responsible owner all dogs need responsible owner regardless off breed!!!!

One off....... reason behind it !!!!!!!!!, so do you not think that the cases of staffys, gsds, rottys dont have reasons behind why they attacked, there upbringing and irresponsible owners who leave them with there kids who have no respect for the dog they poke it hurt it i think if someone done that too you, you would lash out and dogs dont speak and thats there defence too bite i know i would.

Yes dogs do require responsible owners, not because of there breed because they are animals. any dog of any size can harm someone and any dog is a danger in the wrong hands.


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