# Peter Sutcliffe Repents



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Yorkshire Ripper Sutcliffe 'enjoys specially-arranged baptism service' | Daily Mail Online

I am speachless. According to the JW's beliefs this man now goes through "Armaggedon" and gains eternal life in a Paradise Earth! What kind of person even thought to visit him!


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Pity his victims couldn't be afforded the same courtesy.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

As long as he does not get released, I can't see what the problem is.

Atheists will believe that he isn't going to heaven anyway, because atheists believe that death is the end; Christians _should_ believe that if he is _truly_ repentant and _truly_ sorry for the dreadful things he has done, then he is entitled to be forgiven by God, too.

Whatever your beliefs, if it makes him less likely to behave violently in jail, then it is a good thing, surely?


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I find it deeply offensive.
I was bought up a JW. At 15 years of age I decided I could not follow their beliefs, I am there fore shunned and I am constantly told I will die at Armageddon. Interestingly the congregation that tell me this are the local one to Broadmoor, So in their eyes this man is worth more than me..I so hope one of them knock on my door today.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I guess there is a reason he is in a psychiatric hospital and not a prison so given that the state/psychiatrists deem him to be mentally ill I don't see why he should be denied baptism/religious succour. Only him and God know whether he is truly repentant so I'm happy to trust God's judgement.


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

May be the title of this thread should be 

The double standards of JW's


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> May be the title of this thread should be
> 
> The double standards of JW's


*How is it double standards for JW's? You too would be welcomed into the congregation if you decided to follow that faith.*


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

northnsouth said:


> I find it deeply offensive.
> I was bought up a JW. At 15 years of age I decided I could not follow their beliefs, I am there fore shunned and I am constantly told I will die at Armageddon. Interestingly the congregation that tell me this are the local one to Broadmoor, So in their eyes this man is worth more than me..I so hope one of them knock on my door today.


I can totally empathize with your frustration here.

You, a good person who has lived an honest life is damned to burn in hell, while someone can commit such despicable acts, ask forgiveness and have all forgiven.

Its a bit of a slap in the face isnt it?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I can totally empathize with your frustration here.
> 
> You, a good person who has lived an honest life is damned to burn in hell, while someone can commit such despicable acts, ask forgiveness and have all forgiven.
> 
> Its a bit of a slap in the face isnt it?


*Jehovah's witness's don't believe in burning in hell.*


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *Jehovah's witness's don't believe in burning in hell.*


Figure of speech.

I was simply showing compassion for how Northsouth must feel about being rejected while someone like Sutcliffe is welcomed with open arms. Its got to feel pretty rotten if you ask me.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I thought Northsouth said she decided not to follow their beliefs at 15 and has been shunned since. I'm sure if she wanted to rejoin she would be welcomed.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Figure of speech.
> 
> I was simply showing compassion for how Northsouth must feel about being rejected while someone like Sutcliffe is welcomed with open arms. Its got to feel pretty rotten if you ask me.


*Personally i have no time or compassion for Sutcliffe. But the bottom line is, he has accepted the faith. At least that's what he wants people to think.*


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Good grief, Im simply trying to validate/support a fellow member. Geez...


Im sorry, but its just ridiculous how so many religions, not just JW, overlook behavior so long as you accept god. 

Sorry, but in the word I live in, behavior counts too. 
If a spouse says I love you but the behaves violently towards his/her partner, the I love you doesnt take away the black eye. 

Words are cheap and liars, cons, and charlatans are everywhere. 

*If* there is a good and just god who knows whats in our hearts and minds, and judges us accordingly, why the need for outward displays like baptisms? Shouldnt god just be able to look in to our hearts and know where we stand?


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I can totally empathize with your frustration here.
> 
> You, a good person who has lived an honest life is damned to burn in hell, while someone can commit such despicable acts, ask forgiveness and have all forgiven.
> 
> Its a bit of a slap in the face isnt it?





ouesi said:


> Figure of speech.
> 
> I was simply showing compassion for how Northsouth must feel about being rejected while someone like Sutcliffe is welcomed with open arms. Its got to feel pretty rotten if you ask me.


Thank you for showing empathy and understanding at how this had made me feel.


----------



## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Good grief, Im simply trying to validate/support a fellow member. Geez...
> 
> Im sorry, but its just ridiculous how so many religions, not just JW, overlook behavior so long as you accept god.
> 
> ...


I totally agree and that's why I reject any form of organised religion.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I thought Northsouth said she decided not to follow their beliefs at 15 and has been shunned since. I'm sure if she wanted to rejoin she would be welcomed.


Ah yes, welcomed right along with the likes of a serial killer who at one point claimed to be doing the work of god by killing women and mutilating their bodies after death.

Maybe its just me, but I dont know that I would want to be involved with anyone who welcomed such types with open arms.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Funny how more people seem to find God within the walls of a prison than they do a church.:crazy:


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Good grief, Im simply trying to validate/support a fellow member. Geez...
> 
> Im sorry, but its just ridiculous how so many religions, not just JW, overlook behavior so long as you accept god.
> 
> ...


But the guy is in a psychiatric hospital probably for the rest of his life, I don't think it would be right of any religion to turn their back on him completely. I really admire the people who can visit prisons and places like Broadmoor and give people who have committed vile crimes time and humanity. I know I couldn't do it but I do thank God that there are others out there who can.

Sorry Northsouth I didn't intend any of my comments to be non sympathetic or non understanding to you.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Funny how more people seem to find God within the walls of a prison than they do a church.:crazy:


Lots of people find God when they are forced to spend time alone mulling over their lives and of course when they are sick and afraid so prisons/hospitals etc. can be common times for people to turn to God.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But the guy is in a psychiatric hospital probably for the rest of his life, *I don't think it would be right of any religion to turn their back on him completely.* I really admire the people who can visit prisons and places like Broadmoor and give people who have committed vile crimes time and humanity. I know I couldn't do it but I do thank God that there are others out there who can.
> 
> Sorry Northsouth I didn't intend any of my comments to be non sympathetic or non understanding to you.


You mean, like the JW religion turned their back on northsouth and countless other people like her?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *Lots of people find God** when they* are forced to spend time alone mulling over their lives and of course when *they are sick and afraid* *so* prisons/*hospitals* etc. *can be common* times *for people to turn to God*.


Very true. I won't deny that. The walls of hospitals have heard more prayers than the walls of churches ever have.

Thing is if you're doing time for crimes against your fellow man/woman God was never a feature/consideration in your life whilst you were perpetrating those indiscretions. Certainly the victims were even less of a consideration.

Trying to persuade the families of those victims or just the victims alone that they've turned over a new leaf because their imaginary friend has taken them under their wing and told them to apologise doesn't really hold for me and I won't feel sorry for anyone who pretends to show remorse for taking the life of a child. 
However, I would certainly start looking at their motive for doing so.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Its the plate thing all over again isnt it?

_Grab a plate a throw it on the ground.

-Ok done.

Did it break?

-Yes

Now say sorry to it .

-Sorry.

Did it go back to the way it was before?

-No.

Now,do you understand ?_​
You cant undo deeds with words. At some point you have to take personal responsibility for your behavior, and saying Im sorry just doesnt cut it.
And in the end some deeds are so heinous that they are irreparable.

Now, if this piece of scum offered to put himself in solitary confinement for the rest of his life, or even requested euthanasia for himself, and suggested the money saved on housing him in a top mental prison be donated to the children he left motherless, or the parents whos daughters he killed, hed be on to something.

Hell, if hed even asked the JW to go tend to the families he caused so much pain. But no, he wasnt looking to repair any pain that he had caused to others, he asked for something for himself didnt he? He asked to be delivered of responsibility for his behavior, through an imagined blessing no different than the imagined voice of god that told him to kill those women to begin with.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Its the plate thing all over again isnt it?
> 
> _Grab a plate a throw it on the ground.
> 
> ...


See, for me personally, that's the awkward thing about this God...He/She/It does nothing more than detach man from himself reducing his responsibility to the effect that 'God' controls everything he does which ultimately allows him (man) to commit the most abhorrent crimes known to the rest of mankind.

God wipes away all your sins. Whether you've keyed the paintwork of your neighbours car out of anger because the inconsiderate 4r5e hole's parked it across your driveway or you've abducted, raped, murdered and then buried the broken body of his youngest daughter somewhere in the back of beyond. Really? 
You could apologise and, perhaps, have that apology accepted for one violation but certainly not the other.

Perhaps this God ought to rethink that policy because it seems he/she/it can make no real distinction between petty or serious crime.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> You mean, like the JW religion turned their back on northsouth and countless other people like her?


I'm sorry I obviously read the OPs post differently to you. I thought she said she had turned her back on the JW religion and not the other way around.


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm sorry I obviously read the OPs post differently to you. I thought she said she had turned her back on the JW religion and not the other way around.


You read correctly,
At 15 I choose not to follow the religion, I found there to be too many contradictions and I could not get my head around some of the teachings. I never did anything contrary to their principles(,except celebrating Xmas and Birthdays),a few years later I just stopped calling my self a Jehovah's Witness and attending the congregation.Because of this I have been shunned by people I knew for most of my child hood. This post is in fact probably the first time I have openly criticised them.. BUT I will still openly thank them/ individuals for the care and love shown to my Mother in her last days.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> See, for me personally, that's the awkward thing about this God...He/She/It does nothing more than detach man from himself reducing his responsibility to the effect that 'God' controls everything he does which ultimately allows him (man) to commit the most abhorrent crimes known to the rest of mankind.
> 
> God wipes away all your sins. Whether you've keyed the paintwork of your neighbours car out of anger because the inconsiderate 4r5e hole's parked it across your driveway or you've abducted, raped, murdered and then buried the broken body of his youngest daughter somewhere in the back of beyond. Really?
> You could apologise and, perhaps, have that apology accepted for one violation but certainly not the other.
> ...


I'm not sure that is necessarily true but I suppose forgiveness for those who truly repent their sins is part of the Christian faith, if there can be no forgiveness then what hope is there for anyone who has taken a wrong turn in their life. I don't mean say sorry and all will be forgotten but truly repent. I have no idea whether I would be able to do that myself or not as its never happened to me but I know I really admired the parents of the teenage boy who was stabbed to death in London a few years ago (I think his name was Jimmy but can't remember his surname) who did forgive the other boy (s) and set up a foundation in his name.

ETA here is a link to an article about Jimmy Mizen
Our murdered son's legacy of hope | Life and style | The Guardian


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not sure that is necessarily true but I suppose forgiveness for those who truly repent their sins is part of the Christian faith,* if there can be no forgiveness then what hope is there for anyone who has taken a wrong turn in their life. * I don't mean say sorry and all will be forgotten but truly repent. I have no idea whether I would be able to do that myself or not as its never happened to me but I know I really admired the parents of the teenage boy who was stabbed to death in London a few years ago (I think his name was Jimmy but can't remember his surname) who did forgive the other boy (s) and set up a foundation in his name.


I read what that man did. That was no wrong turn in life. That was evil. 
He said he heard voices and god told him to do it.
They said he had paranoid schizophrenia.

Why did gods voice not tell him to save a kitten from a tree?
Why do so many people with paranoid schizophrenia not commit violence in any way shape or form?

It sounds an awful lot to me like hes just trying for more excuses, putting on another show. I dont believe for a minute he has found god, repented or anything else.

If he were truly sorry, what is he trying to do to repair the damage he has caused? Why doesnt he offer his brain to science so we can study serious mental illnesses? Why doesnt he donate that money he uses on appeals to a fund for the children he left motherless?

I think hes a con artist in addition to being evil scum and Im willing to bet that in several years he will use his conversion to attempt another appeal at his sentence. Past behavior is a pretty good indicator of future behavior, and religion is just clouding the real truth of who this man is.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I read what that man did. That was no wrong turn in life. That was evil.
> He said he heard voices and god told him to do it.
> They said he had paranoid schizophrenia.
> 
> ...


I don't think he would have any control over what God's voice told him to do. When I was doing my nurse training I had to do a psychiatric placement. I won't pretend I enjoyed it as I was young and found it pretty overwhelming and frightening as many of the patients were violent. I did notice that a common theme for those with paranoia was that either God, Hitler, the Queen or Margaret Thatcher's voices were telling them what to do. I can't imagine how it must feel to have voices coming at you out of the TV screen or the radio and controlling your mind. I'm not trying to excuse his behaviour for one minute but he was/is seriously ill. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I don't understand why anyone thinks he should be denied access to God.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

If he has found 'god' then lets hope someone sticks a biro through his throat on the way to whatever 'church' he deems fit...


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think he would have any control over what God's voice told him to do. When I was doing my nurse training I had to do a psychiatric placement. I won't pretend I enjoyed it as I was young and found it pretty overwhelming and frightening as many of the patients were violent. I did notice that a common theme for those with paranoia was that either God, Hitler, the Queen or Margaret Thatcher's voices were telling them what to do. I can't imagine how it must feel to have voices coming at you out of the TV screen or the radio and controlling your mind. I'm not trying to excuse his behaviour for one minute but he was/is seriously ill. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I don't understand why anyone thinks he should be denied access to God.


Not denying him access to god. If god is all that which he is supposed to be, no one can deny anyone access to god can they?

Yet somehow, he has managed to arrange for multiple visitors, his own private baptism ceremony and all sorts of other privileges that I see no reason for him to be allowed.

As for the hearing voices, again, schizophrenia is not a violent disease. Paranoid schizophrenics dont go around killing people and chopping in to their bodies after death and then hiding the evidence, over years and years and then show no remorse for the killings.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Peter Sutcliffe did attempt to claim he had heard voices telling him to kill prostitutes at his trial and also claimed he was suffering from schizophrenia.

He was assessed by several Psychiatrists who found nothing wrong with him.

He can 'repent' all he likes, I don't believe it will do him any good. It certainly got Myra Hindley nowhere.


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Lets test him ...cut the f***** open and lets see if he refuses a transfusion...


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *If there can be no forgiveness then what hope is there for anyone who has taken a wrong turn
> *
> ETA here is a link to an article about Jimmy Mizen
> Our murdered son's legacy of hope | Life and style | The Guardian


Perhaps it's just me and if it is then this God will no doubt have to find it in his heart to forgive me for what I'm about to print.

If some sadistic and twisted little 845t4rd deliberately killed a child of mIne, attempted to apologise for that cruelty in person and then fully expected me to find forgiveness in my heart for his wrong doing, I'm afraid the only response they'd receive is one of complete and utter anger incited by their absolute effrontery.

I'm only human and I won't pretend that I'm anything greater.

As for the statement; If a child is not loved and not wanted why should we be surprised when that child grows into someone who causes others pain.

Now I'm not saying there isn't some small degree of truth written there but it's a statement that's wearing out from over use and is almost becoming an anthem for everyone who strays from the straight and narrow.
Why can't we just accept that some people in this world are bad 845t4rd5 and have done with it instead of the bad 845t4rd5 becoming hobbies for the God-like do gooders in this world.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> You read correctly,
> At 15 I choose not to follow the religion, I found there to be too many contradictions and I could not get my head around some of the teachings. I never did anything contrary to their principles(,except celebrating Xmas and Birthdays),a few years later I just stopped calling my self a Jehovah's Witness and attending the congregation.Because of this I have been shunned by people I knew for most of my child hood. This post is in fact probably the first time I have openly criticised them.. BUT I will still openly thank them/ individuals for the care and love shown to my Mother in her last days.


It's quite sad that people you have known/loved/liked for most of your childhood should just shun you because you no longer have the same beliefs as if that was the only thing about you, very narrow minded of them in my opinion, sadly it's a matter of course for some when it comes to religion.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Perhaps it's just me and if it is then this God will no doubt have to find it in his heart to forgive me for what I'm about to print.
> 
> If some sadistic and twisted little 845t4rd deliberately killed a child of mIne, attempted to apologise for that cruelty in person and then fully expected me to find forgiveness in my heart for his wrong doing, I'm afraid the only response they'd receive is one of complete and utter anger incited by their absolute effrontery.
> 
> I'm only human and I won't pretend that I'm anything greater.


I would say that we are all only human, and there is no right or wrong way to deal with the stew of emotions at despicable acts. 
For me I would hope to get to the point where I just dont give an utter flip at all about that person. They are nothing to me. They no longer have the power to incite any emotion at all in me. I dont know if that is forgiveness or simply healing. But either way it is for the victim, not the criminal.



Zaros said:


> As for the statement; If a child is not loved and not wanted why should we be surprised when that child grows into someone who causes others pain.
> 
> Now I'm not saying there isn't some small degree of truth written there but it's a statement that's wearing out from over use and is almost becoming an anthem for everyone who strays from the straight and narrow.
> Why can't we just accept that some people in this world are bad 845t4rd5 and have done with it instead of the bad 845t4rd5 becoming hobbies for the God-like do gooders in this world.


Oh... it wears thin on me too... 
Im not going to get in to it because people on this forum are just plain cruel, but I know what I have lived, and the kind of person I am, and I know what others have lived, and the kind of people they are. Suffice it to say that if someone like David Pelzer can grow to be the man he is today, Peter Sutcliffe cant blame anyone but himself for his behavior.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Peter Sutcliffe did attempt to claim he had heard voices telling him to kill prostitutes at his trial and also claimed he was suffering from schizophrenia.
> 
> He was assessed by several Psychiatrists who found nothing wrong with him.
> 
> He can 'repent' all he likes, I don't believe it will do him any good. It certainly got Myra Hindley nowhere.


I think you will find he was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 1984 and moved from a normal prison to Broadmoor where he is being held under the Mental Health Act.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Not denying him access to god. If god is all that which he is supposed to be, no one can deny anyone access to god can they?
> 
> Yet somehow, he has managed to arrange for multiple visitors, his own private baptism ceremony and all sorts of other privileges that I see no reason for him to be allowed.
> 
> *As for the hearing voices, again, schizophrenia is not a violent disease. Paranoid schizophrenics dont go around killing people* and chopping in to their bodies after death and then hiding the evidence, over years and years and then show no remorse for the killings.


Violent behavior: One of the consequences of failing to treat individuals with severe mental illness - Treatment Advocacy Center


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I personally think....actually better not wrote what I personally think it involves a few words which may get me banned...but I am very surprised he didn't burst into flames the second they tried to bring him anywhere near religion, I remember watching the news while he was on the streets killing people an ruining peoples lives....I hope he rots in hell and then comes back and rots all over again...no torture is bad enough for him..what next...Ian huntly repents and then those poor little girls won't be dead...bullsh!t!!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think you will find he was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 1984 and moved from a normal prison to Broadmoor where he is being held under the Mental Health Act.


Okay, I didn't know that.

But, if he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia and is being held under the Mental Health Act, can his claim that he has 'repented' be reliable?

If he wasn't responsible for his own actions when he murdered thirteen women, how can his new found 'repentance' hold any credibility?


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Violent behavior: One of the consequences of failing to treat individuals with severe mental illness - Treatment Advocacy Center





> Are people with schizophrenia violent?
> 
> People with schizophrenia are not usually violent. In fact, most violent crimes are not committed by people with schizophrenia.7 However, some symptoms are associated with violence, such as delusions of persecution. Substance abuse may also increase the chance a person will become violent.8 If a person with schizophrenia becomes violent, the violence is usually directed at family members and tends to take place at home.
> 
> ...


NIMH · Schizophrenia


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Okay, I didn't know that.
> 
> But, if he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia and is being held under the Mental Health Act, can his claim that he has 'repented' be reliable?
> 
> If he wasn't responsible for his own actions when he murdered thirteen women, how can his new found 'repentance' hold any credibility?


I guess thats one for the JW's to decide and God when his time comes.

We don't have the death penalty in this country so if we are going to keep people who commit disgusting/vile crimes alive then I don't see how we can deny them the right to religious counselling. Of course he may be trying it on and not be genuine in seeking forgiveness but I don't see what else the JW's or any other religion could do in this situation.

Quesi I'm interested to know what happens in the US when a prisoner on death row wants to repent and ask for forgiveness from God? Are they denied access to religious representatives? Does it depend on the crime they committed? Do they get sent to the chair or the lethal injection being told there is no forgiveness and they will burn in hell? Again I'm not being argumentative but am genuinely interested.


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Some crimes don't deserve forgiveness and taking a life is one of them


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I guess thats one for the JW's to decide and God when his time comes.
> 
> We don't have the death penalty in this country so if we are going to keep people who commit disgusting/vile crimes alive then I don't see how we can deny them the right to religious counselling. Of course he may be trying it on and not be genuine in seeking forgiveness but I don't see what else the JW's or any other religion could do in this situation.
> 
> Quesi I'm interested to know what happens in the US when a prisoner on death row wants to repent and ask for forgiveness from God? Are they denied access to religious representatives? Does it depend on the crime they committed? Do they get sent to the chair or the lethal injection being told there is no forgiveness and they will burn in hell? Again I'm not being argumentative but am genuinely interested.


They have access up to the last minute to religious counseling if they so wish.

There are religious representatives in all prisons. That is not the issue here.
The issue here is that he is getting multiple visitors and his own baptism ceremony under the guise of religion. I think that goes above and beyond. And I cant help but wonder why it is even necessary if god knows what is in his heart, why the need for an intermediary and a ceremony?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> They have access up to the last minute to religious counseling if they so wish.
> 
> There are religious representatives in all prisons. That is not the issue here.
> The issue here is that he is getting multiple visitors and his own baptism ceremony under the guise of religion. I think that goes above and beyond. And I cant help but wonder why it is even necessary if god knows what is in his heart, why the need for an intermediary and a ceremony?


The article says he has been a practising JW for several years and has been visited by them for 15 years. He is in a psychiatric hospital not a prison so I guess they allow more freedom for things like bible study and I would imagine it would be against his "human rights" to deny him access.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The article says he has been a practising JW for several years and has been visited by them for 15 years. He is in a psychiatric hospital not a prison so I guess they allow more freedom for things like bible study and I would imagine it would be against his "human rights" to deny him access.


Youre still skirting the issue. Why does he need his own private baptism ceremony?

Seriously, where do you draw the line at allowing someone like this to practice their religion. And why should the government have to pay for it?

What if he were mormon and believed he would not be saved unless allowed to marry multiple women? Should the state provide him the opportunity to marry and consummate the marriages?

What if he were a scientologist and decided he needed an audit? Would he be provided a private room and the auditor for however long it took?

What if his religion required him to eat certain foods?

Its a slippery slope if you ask me, and I dont see how he cant worship whatever god he wants without having extra allowances made or provisions provided.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The article says he has been a practising JW for several years and has been visited by them for 15 years. He is in a psychiatric hospital not a prison so I guess they allow more freedom for things like bible study and I would imagine it would be against his "human rights" to deny him access.


Yes, quite possibly.

It is a bit difficult though to decide how 'human rights' apply to him when he butchered thirteen women and left many children Motherless and one Father so heartbroken that he died after Sutcliffe did away with his Daughter.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Yes, quite possibly.
> 
> *It is a bit difficult though to decide how 'human rights' apply to him* when he butchered thirteen women and left many children Motherless and one Father so heartbroken that he died after Sutcliffe did away with his Daughter.


Well, certain behavior - regardless of the reason behind the behavior - means you forfeit certain rights.

For example, his behavior has caused him to be denied the right to freedom no?
So then it becomes a question of what rights does he have?

And, I dont mean this to be offensive, but, if were going to say that it was delusions that drove him to kill, should we really be supporting him in glomming on to further delusions under the guise of religion?
I mean, isnt it deluded thinking to believe that a special bath in special water while chanting special prayers will absolve you of all your sins?


----------



## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

British Justice system - a complete and utter joke, slaughter 13 women, manage to claim it is because you are ill and spend a nice life in a hospital getting 16 hours worth of visitors a week and then a nice little ceremony of forgiveness - ridiculous!


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

ouesi said:


> And, I dont mean this to be offensive, but, if were going to say that it was delusions that drove him to kill, should we really be supporting him in glomming on to further delusions under the guise of religion?
> I mean, isnt it deluded thinking to believe that a special bath in special water while chanting special prayers will absolve you of all your sins?


That isn't why you are forgiven as that would be more 'magic' than faith. Repentance comes from the heart and only God will know whether it is true or not.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Jobeth said:


> That isn't why you are forgiven as that would be more 'magic' than faith. Repentance comes from the heart and only God will know whether it is true or not.


So there was no need for the baptism ceremony then correct?


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

ouesi said:


> So there was no need for the baptism ceremony then correct?


I'm not a JW, but don't believe you need a formal baptism ceremony to be forgiven. It is a personal act between you and God.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> *Youre still skirting the issue. Why does he need his own private baptism ceremony?*
> 
> Seriously, where do you draw the line at allowing someone like this to practice their religion. And why should the government have to pay for it?
> 
> ...


I'm not skirting the issue. As you know already I don't belong to or follow a set religion although I do believe in God. I was baptised as a child but have not been confirmed and have no intention of being. Therefore I can't take communion but that doesn't bother me at all as its of no relevance to my beliefs. However if I followed a certain religion and baptism was part of that then I don't see how its appropriate or necessary to deny a psychiatric patient (who was deemed ill enough to be forced to take medication against his will) that part of his religion. We already make a lot of allowances for both prisoners and patients for religious dietary requirements such as halal and kosher.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not skirting the issue. As you know already I don't belong to or follow a set religion although I do believe in God. I was baptised as a child but have not been confirmed and have no intention of being. Therefore I can't take communion but that doesn't bother me at all as its of no relevance to my beliefs. However if I followed a certain religion and baptism was part of that then I don't see how its appropriate or necessary to deny a psychiatric patient (who was deemed ill enough to be forced to take medication against his will) that part of his religion. We already make a lot of allowances for both prisoners and patients for religious dietary requirements such as halal and kosher.


Okay, I'm not trying to be annoying either, but I don't feel like you're understanding what I'm asking. Actually, I'm asking several things.

Option A:
God knows what is in our hearts and therefore a formal baptism ceremony is not necessary.
Which raises the question of why was he offered the *unnecessary* baptism ceremony.

Option B:
A formal baptism ceremony IS a requirement for this religion.
Which raises the question of where do you draw the line?
What requirements of religion do you allow, and which ones do you deny?
If he had found the mormon faith, would he be allowed to marry multiple wives in keeping with his faith? Or provided with the required garments of his chosen religion?

Then there is the whole other issue of his MH and the role religious faith might play in it's treatment. 
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.117.217&rep=rep1&type=pdf


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Religious freedom does not stop at the prison gates. In the UK you can do things to do with your faith and culture. For example, you can wear clothes to do with your faith, keep religious books and follow religious events, eat food to do with your religion and culture.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not skirting the issue. As you know already I don't belong to or follow a set religion although I do believe in God. I was baptised as a child but have not been confirmed and have no intention of being. Therefore I can't take communion but that doesn't bother me at all as its of no relevance to my beliefs. However if I followed a certain religion and baptism was part of that then I don't see how its appropriate or necessary to deny a psychiatric patient (who was deemed ill enough to be forced to take medication against his will) that part of his religion. We already make a lot of allowances for both prisoners and patients for religious dietary requirements such as halal and kosher.


Why can't you take communion?

All you need to do is walk into a church that does communion and join in....right?


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Jonescat said:


> Religious freedom does not stop at the prison gates. In the UK you can do things to do with your faith and culture. For example, you can wear clothes to do with your faith, keep religious books and follow religious events, eat food to do with your religion and culture.


Where does that religious freedom end though?
What if my religion requires me to sacrifice a bull-calf? If a religious group provides me with the animal and the knife, can the government not prevent me from brandishing said knife on said animal?

I know its an extreme example, but at some point you have to decide where ones religion starts infringing on others.
I think its safe to say that allowing this man a private baptism ceremony is insulting enough to his victims families to be infringing upon their rights to heal from this atrocity.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Well he can hardly have a public one. 
I think the courts spend a lot of time sorting this stuff out - whether or not people can be forced to give urine tests when they are fasting etc. 

A different question. Do you believe that prison is there only to punish? If you can make someone a better person, should you or should you leave them in the state that got them there?


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> I find it deeply offensive.
> I was bought up a JW. At 15 years of age I decided I could not follow their beliefs, I am there fore shunned and I am constantly told I will die at Armageddon. Interestingly the congregation that tell me this are the local one to Broadmoor, So in their eyes this man is worth more than me..I so hope one of them knock on my door today.


Northnsough, I fully understand why you feel as you feel.

This man did some terrible things that can never be undone. His defense was his schizophrenia; it is difficult to accept that his "repentantance" is anything more than a selfish act. A truly repentant person would surely be doing more to "counteract" the evil he had done.

People may be fooled; God will not.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Jonescat said:


> Well he can hardly have a public one.
> I think the courts spend a lot of time sorting this stuff out - whether or not people can be forced to give urine tests when they are fasting etc.
> 
> A different question. Do you believe that prison is there only to punish? If you can make someone a better person, should you or should you leave them in the state that got them there?


In the case of people like Peter Sutcliffe, neither.

No, his incarceration is not a punishment. It is simply a means of protecting the public. If he were a dog, he would be humanely euthanized, not as punishment, but to prevent him hurting any one else.

Since euthanasia is not an option, you incarcerate him and manage him very carefully, dont allow him access to weapons, keep him medicated etc.

As for treating him for whatever condition he has, sure, I guess so. Hes not ever going to be well enough to be released back in to society is he? So how far to you go with treatment? Why should he have more access to treatment than the thousands of non-violent people who struggle with mental health issues and struggle to receive adequate help and support?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> In the case of people like Peter Sutcliffe, neither.
> 
> No, his incarceration is not a punishment. It is simply a means of protecting the public. If he were a dog, he would be humanely euthanized, not as punishment, but to prevent him hurting any one else.
> 
> ...


He doesn't have any choice regarding his treatment. Once sectioned to Broadmoor he refused medication until a further order was obtained allowing for the forced administration of treatment. How far patients are allowed to go in following their religious beliefs is I would imagine all laid down in law and charters.

Going back to your earlier point about baptism - I can't answer your question as I don't know enough about the JW religion.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Why can't you take communion?
> 
> All you need to do is walk into a church that does communion and join in....right?


I always thought you had to be confirmed to take communion but as I'm not a regular church goer I'm not sure why I thought that - I think in the past when I've been to church I've been asked and offered a blessing instead. Again as I'm not part of an organised religion it is of no significance to me and its not something I'm concerned about not doing.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I always thought you had to be confirmed to take communion but as I'm not a regular church goer I'm not sure why I thought that - I think in the past when I've been to church I've been asked and offered a blessing instead. Again as I'm not part of an organised religion it is of no significance to me and its not something I'm concerned about not doing.


i dont know
i was never baptised. but i have been to a church in my past few years ago where we the bread and wine thing was going on and i had a go.
no one said otherwise.
you just do it or you dont, whats gonna happen?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *Lots of people find God when they are forced to spend time alone mulling over their lives and of course when they are sick and afraid so prisons/hospitals etc. can be common times for people to turn to God.*


I was about to post something similar.

It is often when we reach bottom - when all else is stripped away and we are forced to confront ourselves as we really are, rather than how we think we are, or would like to be, that we become open to God's voice. It is the voice that is still and small and can only be heard in the silence. we have to quiet the cacophony of our minds and listen before we can hear it.

As RPH says - prisons, hospitals - battlefields - where the glamour of the world is stripped away, and the individual confronts what is real, and what is really significant - is when many of us hear God's voice.

Has Peter Sutcliffe found God's true voice? I don't know - only he and God know that, and only time will tell.

Is he truly repentant for the suffering he inflicted? Again - that is between him and God.

Will he be welcomed by God if he is truly repentant? I believe that he will - and that whether I like it or not so will many other people that I might judge unworthy of God's love.

Ouesi gives an example of men who claim to love their partners but repeatedly behave violently towards them and says "This is not love" - and she's right; it isn't (though I think she is slightly off target with her example). And nor is it repentance when (say) Catholics go to confession, receive absolution, and then go out to do the same thing again (whether it is wife-beating, fraud, spite or whatever) - that is NOT being repentant. The word "repent" means "to turn away from" - it does not mean to say "sorry", as people seem to understand it. True repentance is to turn away in heart and mind, soul and body, from the evil which we perpetrated - and if possible, make things right. Obviously Sutcliffe can't make things right, but he can turn away in all of these aspects, from the things he has done. God will know, and only God can judge.

He is where he cannot hurt anyone else, no matter what his true feelings are. There is a possibility that he is honestly sorry for the dreadful things he has done - why should he not be allowed to embrace his chosen faith? Perhaps it is a big con - so what? It's not going to get him early release.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> You mean, like the JW religion turned their back on northsouth and countless other people like her?


I think you are twisting stuff here.

N&S chose to leave the JW's and they then banished her (I don't agree with what they did, but it was HER choice to leave). If she chose to return and accept their teachings, then they would take her back.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I Why should he have more access to treatment than the thousands of non-violent people who struggle with mental health issues and struggle to receive adequate help and support?


Clearly he shouldn't. Everyone should have the help and support they need. Can't say any more - the state of MH care shocks and distresses me. However, if as a society we choose to incarcerate rather than euthanase, he has to be treated.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not sure that is necessarily true but I suppose forgiveness for those who truly repent their sins is part of the Christian faith, if there can be no forgiveness then what hope is there for anyone who has taken a wrong turn in their life. I don't mean say sorry and all will be forgotten but truly repent. I have no idea whether I would be able to do that myself or not as its never happened to me but I know *I really admired the parents of the teenage boy who was stabbed to death in London a few years ago (I think his name was Jimmy but can't remember his surname) who did forgive the other boy (s) and set up a foundation in his name.
> 
> ETA here is a link to an article about Jimmy Mizen
> Our murdered son's legacy of hope | Life and style | The Guardian*




Another wonderfully inspiring account of the journey of forgiveness is "If you sit very still" by Marion Partington. In it she details how she grew to forgive Fred and Rosemary West for the murder of her beloved younger sister, Lucy Partington, a student whose body was founding a bin liner, stuffed behind pipes in the West's basement. It took her many years and was a dreadful and heart-wrenching journey; but ultimately it enabled her to find release from the pain of her initial hate and rage. Her loss of course, will never go away, but she has found peace. And one of the things which allowed her to forgive was when she found out about the lives of these two twisted individuals - especially when they were children. _Their_ suffering touched her heart, and though it didn't excuse what they did, it helped to explain much.

As you say RPH - when we haven't gone through that pain ourselves, we can't say what would be our reaction, but it is admirable, and heroic. Hate is easy, and that is why there is so much war, cruelty and injustice in the world. Turning it around to forgiveness and love is very, very hard.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> ]I always thought you had to be confirmed to take communion [/B]but as I'm not a regular church goer I'm not sure why I thought that - I think in the past when I've been to church I've been asked and offered a blessing instead. Again as I'm not part of an organised religion it is of no significance to me and its not something I'm concerned about not doing.


Strictly speaking, that is correct - however our priest will give communion to anyone who comes up for it, even if he knows they are not confirmed, and so will I.

Confirmation enables a baptised person to confirm the promises made on their behalf at baptism - i.e. it is a personal confirmation that we are aware of promises made on our behalf at our baptism (which is usually as an infant), and that we agree with them and undertake to keep them. It is also a sign of full membership to the Christian community.

In Christian confirmation, a baptised person believes that he or she is receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. The person can then take the blood and flesh of Christ in the true spirit and as a willing disciple of the Lord.

To me, if the sacrament means so much to someone that they feel that they need it, then I am happy to administer it.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> i dont know
> i was never baptised. but i have been to a church in my past few years ago where we the bread and wine thing was going on and i had a go.
> no one said otherwise.
> *you just do it or you dont, whats gonna happen?*


If you are open to the Spirit - everything.

If you aren't - nothing.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I am glad he now found God.

Nothing will bring back his victims.

I would be very suspicious that he is genuine. A serial killer who found God? Good for him.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Maybe God can forgive him....I would think it would be extremely difficult for his victims families to do so...not that any forgiveness on their part would be anything to do with him.

I would wonder...can a serial killer ever forgive himself?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lostbear said:


> It is often when we reach bottom - when all else is stripped away and we are forced to confront ourselves as we really are, rather than how we think we are, or would like to be, that we become open to God's voice. It is the voice that is still and small and can only be heard in the silence.
> 
> Has Peter Sutcliffe found God's true voice? I don't know - only he and God know that, and only time will tell.


If someone I knew and trusted told me that God had spoken to them during the night I would certainly begin to show a number of concerns regarding their state of mind and what dark thoughts were being incubated and nurtured within that intricate labyrinth.

I've had life stripped away from me, just as I've been acquainted with many others that have found themselves in similar circumstances and I don't ever recall the quiet voice of this God, cryptic or otherwise, reassuring me that all will be well or that he had a greater purpose in store for me. 
Nor do I recall anyone else experiencing that strange phenomenon.

Maureen Long was left for dead with a gaping hole in her head and multiple stab wounds in 1977. She had a metal plate surgically implanted and had no real recollections of what actually happened to her. One of his more fortunate victims perhaps?

Wilma McCann, aged 28, was one of his more unfortunate and tragic victims. She was savagely attacked and murdered just 100 yards from her home.

Her son, 5 year old Richard, was told by police officers 'Your mum has been taken to heaven.' 
The cruel, sadistic and tormenting irony of that statement of course is that this fictional place called heaven was very same place from where Sutcliffe claimed he had received a message telling him to kill prostitutes.

Within 18 months Sutcliffe had taken the lives of 4 women and left 13 children motherless. Not all of these women were prostitutes.

By the end of his reign of terror he had murdered 13 women and attempted to take the lives of 7 others. This was the word of God?:001_unsure:

He received 20 life sentences.

Sutcliffe has no more heard or found the the voice of this this God than I have discovered the secret to eternal life.

Sutcliffe is just a devious and evil individual.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> Maybe God can forgive him....I would think it would be extremely difficult for his victims families to do so...not that any forgiveness on their part would be anything to do with him.
> 
> *I would wonder...can a serial killer ever forgive himself?*


I have to admit that that is the question that always comes back to my mind.

I have done things that I am thoroughly ashamed of (I cheated on a spelling test when I was eight, for instance - and this is the first time I have told anybody.) - and whilst I won't say I don't forgive myself for them, I still feel a wave of shame when I recall them.

How could anyone _ever_ come to terms with committing a really dreadful crime? I don't know. I really don't know. Being forgiven, and forgiving yourself are two very different things.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Sutcliffe has no more heard or found the the voice of this this God than I have discovered the secret to eternal life.
> 
> Sutcliffe is just a devious and evil individual.


You may very well be right. But he isn't going to get out, and the only life it affects is his own.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

agree with Zaros. Sutcliffe is a devious and evil individual....

maybe he feels if he repents and finds God he will get let out? Myra Hindley also became devout.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> agree with Zaros. Sutcliffe is a devious and evil individual....
> 
> maybe he feels if he repents and finds God he will get let out? Myra Hindley also became devout.


TBH, one of the things that made me doubt her particular conversion was that she was so desperate to get out of jail and used her religion as a bargaining ploy (not that it worked, and I think it was right that she was kept behind bars).

Perhaps I am being cynical and un-Christian now, but to my mind, if she was truly repentant she would have given Keith Bennett's grieving family information on where to find his body. She and Brady documented everything in their own way (photographs etc), and I don't believe that she didn't know where that poor child was buried and is lying now.

His family continue to be tortured with grief. To have allowed them to say goodbye to him, and bury him with respect and dignity, would have helped them to find a degree of peace.

I personally think that she _was_ attempting to manipulate the system - she was a very manipulative individual - but again, that is something only God will know.


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

lostbear said:


> I was about to post something similar.
> 
> It is often when we reach bottom - when all else is stripped away and we are forced to confront ourselves as we really are, rather than how we think we are, or would like to be, that we become open to God's voice. It is the voice that is still and small and can only be heard in the silence. we have to quiet the cacophony of our minds and listen before we can hear it.


 I wonder how a hurting child might feel hearing these words... A child whos mother had been killed, maybe even by Sutcliffe, who was at rock bottom and did not hear any voice of any god? I wonder if they would feel abandoned or perhaps guilty in some way thinking there must be something wrong with them that god spoke to others but not them.
I wonder if it is any comfort to the families of Sutcliffes victims that he has now found god.

Maybe its just me, but I have to wonder also what kind of god would take the time to speak to the Sutcliffes of the world, help him find peace and healing, while allowing what happened to his victims happen.

But all of that god talk aside, were still back to the question of why does Sutcliffe even need a baptism ceremony at all?

If his true feelings are between him and god, it shouldnt matter whether he is baptized or not right? So why the ceremony? And at what point do you stop making religious allowances for sadistic serial killers whos incarceration costs how much again?

BTW, I know its the Daily Mail, but as recently as 2012 he was claiming to be cured, looking to be released to a less secure hospital, and defending Jimmy Savile. Oh, and he was a JW at this point too.
'Peter Sutcliffe: 'Cured' Yorkshire Ripper speaks of his hopes of leaving Broadmoor | Daily Mail Online

If there is a god, surely he would want us to use our intelligence and powers of reason to look at the facts of this mans behavior?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> If someone I knew and trusted told me that God had spoken to them during the night I would certainly begin to show a number of concerns regarding their state of mind and what dark thoughts were being incubated and nurtured within that intricate labyrinth.
> 
> I've had life stripped away from me, just as I've been acquainted with many others that have found themselves in similar circumstances and I don't ever recall the quiet voice of this God, cryptic or otherwise, reassuring me that all will be well or that he had a greater purpose in store for me.
> Nor do I recall anyone else experiencing that strange phenomenon.
> ...


Of course it wasn't the word of God but in PS's mind it was because he was mentally ill, suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. What he did was absolutely vile and disgusting but I just don't understand why there is so much opposition to him being allowed to practice his faith in a place where he will be incarcerated for the rest of his days. What else should we deny him, food? water? company? or should we regularly inflict fear and pain on him in an act of retribution? or why not just kill him and be done with it? I feel pretty sure most of you guys are against the death penalty being reintroduced in this country judging from comments I've read on other threads.

Zaros I am sorry that you have never found comfort from God but believe me when I say I have worked very many night shifts in hospitals, long nights often looking after the terminally ill and many many of them do find comfort from God and from the brilliant hospital chaplains. Heaven may be a fictional place for you but it isn't for many - it brings comfort and hope and peace for a lot of people.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

every once in a while there is a tragedy, maybe a murder or a rape....something terrible and a short while later, the ones left behind will give an interview and say they have forgiven the people responsible for their loss and pain.

You have to ask....how could they ever do that? But they do.

Sometimes they do this and their religion helps them. Other times they forgive and it has nothing to do with religion.

For anybody who has been a victim of such terrible abuse, hugs to them and I hope that they can and do find a way of letting go of the past and living a happy life.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Quite frankly, he can worship little green men with pink polka dots for all I care!!

My opinion is the sooner he 'walks in paradise' the blooming better coz then he can stop costing the tax-payer over £300k a year!!!

.


----------



## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh, I would imagine it's very easy to be 'devout' whilst in prison. 

If you are high security, the day would be very long and none of the temptations of the outside world are open to you, drinking, gambling etc and you would find something to fill your time with and I'm sure, at the time, certain prisoners genuinely believe they have repented and been saved. 

It was a bit of a phenomenon that many loyalist prisoners in Northern Ireland got 'saved' during their incarceration. (Republican prisoners are catholic and then just 'are' Catholics, no being saved required for them) 

It looked good for release and also, was the only way to leave one of the loyalist paramilitary groups, well, that or death so a cynic could say many became born again for less than genuine reasons. 

For those families that are able to forgive when they have had a family member cruelly taken for them, I wish them the peace they deserve and they are bigger persons than I ever will be. 

Peter Sutcliffe can do whatever the hell he likes, he will never be released and nothing will give such a person comfort, the elation he may have felt after his baptism will wane and what will he be left with?? That's my hope anyway.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I wonder how a hurting child might feel hearing these words... A child whos mother had been killed, maybe even by Sutcliffe, who was at rock bottom and did not hear any voice of any god? I wonder if they would feel abandoned or perhaps guilty in some way thinking there must be something wrong with them that god spoke to others but not them.
> I wonder if it is any comfort to the families of Sutcliffes victims that he has now found god.
> 
> Maybe its just me, but I have to wonder also what kind of god would take the time to speak to the Sutcliffes of the world, help him find peace and healing, while allowing what happened to his victims happen.
> ...


He has been found guilty of his crimes. He has been sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison or now in hospital. He is forced to accept treatment for his mental health illness against his will. He is highly unlikely to ever be released. I don't know what else there is that God would want us to look at or do but this springs to mind

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

So I'm happy to let God make all the decisions about what happens to PS's soul after he dies as I can't pretend to be without sin and entitled to judge. The jury judged and found him guilty and he is being punished by the courts and the law, we have no power or right to force God to punish him too.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lostbear said:


> You may very well be right. But he isn't going to get out, and the only life it affects is his own.


With respect, I disagree. Putting the man in the newspapers continues to affect the lives of his victims, their respective families and exhumes painful memories. 
I very much doubt they care what steps he might be taking to reform himself or find absolution.

With particular respect to the families he so cruelly touched it is my opinion that he should simply disappear into the shadows of the system that holds him and only be heard about or from when he's finally dead.



lostbear said:


> TBH, one of the things that made me doubt her particular conversion was that she was so desperate to get out of jail and used her religion as a bargaining ploy (not that it worked, and I think it was right that she was kept behind bars).
> 
> Perhaps I am being cynical and un-Christian now, but to my mind, if she was truly repentant she would have given Keith Bennett's grieving family information on where to find his body. She and Brady documented everything in their own way (photographs etc), and I don't believe that she didn't know where that poor child was buried and is lying now.
> 
> ...


And didn't she just do her utmost to get out of prison. 
The alarmingly eccentric Lord Longford being just one poorly sighted individual who carried on a crusade in her favour. Shameful man.


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What he did was absolutely vile and disgusting but I just don't understand why there is so much opposition to him being allowed to practice his faith in a place where he will be incarcerated for the rest of his days. What else should we deny him, food? water? company? or should we regularly inflict fear and pain on him in an act of retribution? or why not just kill him and be done with it?


Okay, thats just a cheap shot.
There is a huge leap between providing a prisoner with food and water, and providing a prisoner with a baptism. 
And an even bigger leap to go from not providing him with a baptism, and regularly inflicting pain on him.

All Im saying is that if his faith is between him and god, why does he need a baptism ceremony. There is no desire to starve him, dehydrate him, or inflict pain on him in that statement.

Now, if his faith *requires* a baptism ceremony, what else can he claim his faith requires? What can other top security prisoners claim their faith requires?


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> He has been found guilty of his crimes. He has been sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison or now in hospital. He is forced to accept treatment for his mental health illness against his will. He is highly unlikely to ever be released. I don't know what else there is that God would want us to look at or do but this springs to mind
> 
> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
> 
> So I'm happy to let God make all the decisions about what happens to PS's soul after he dies as I can't pretend to be without sin and entitled to judge. The jury judged and found him guilty and he is being punished by the courts and the law, *we have no power or right to force God to punish him too.*


Seriously, what are you talking about?
Where in any of my posts am I asking a being I dont even believe exists to further punish PS?
In fact, I was pretty clear in one of my posts that it isnt even about punishment in cases like PS, but simply management, keeping him from hurting anyone else.

Personally I dont agree with forcing him to take medications either. If he refuses, he refuses, just keep him from hurting anyone.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

I can't see the problem really

There is a religion called Jehovah witness.
Not regarded as biblical mainstream Christians
Just like all religions, they have rules
There are two rules being discussed here
First says if you leave, your'e persona non grata,you don't got to heaven
Other says if you join, you are one of us and go to heaven
That's up to them isn't?
And would make sense from their point of view, even if their POV is bonkers?
Just a private religion with non statutory oddities
If someone wants to leave because it's pants and someone else wants to join even though it's pants, then what difference does it make
He's a murderer whom will never be free and chooses to worship
Someone here maybe fooling someone else, whom knows?


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

I can't believe there are 3 pages discussing the rights & wrongs of his new 'religious' leanings and yet no-one seems at all upset that the tax payer is coughing up £300k a year to keep him whilst OAP's have to choose to eat or heat and hospitals have to put off procedures due to lack of funds! 

That to me is the biggest bl88dy crime of the lot!!!

.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Okay, thats just a cheap shot.
> There is a huge leap between providing a prisoner with food and water, and providing a prisoner with a baptism.
> And an even bigger leap to go from not providing him with a baptism, and regularly inflicting pain on him.
> 
> ...


*To become a JW you have to be baptised. You can't just call yourself a JW.*


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

The problem is that it's a question of belief, and that's not something you can force. If you just had to behave in a certain way to get to Heaven it would be something anybody could achieve, but to have to believe in something without any evidence, and your actions count for nothing seems unfair. So someone can murder and maim, then start believing in Salvation and go to Heaven, someone else tries really hard to be a good person, makes all sorts of sacrifices for others but because they have doubts they go to Hell? Someone please give an explanation for the death of all those first born children who had to die so Moses could take his people out of Egypt, the heartache for their parents and siblings who had done nothing wrong except be ruled by Pharoah? These are the stories we all grew up on, and then we grow up and start asking questions, and we seem to know less, not more.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> With respect, I disagree. *Putting the man in the newspapers continues to affect the lives of his victims, their respective families and exhumes painful memories.
> I very much doubt they care what steps he might be taking to reform himself or find absolution.*
> 
> With particular respect to the families he so cruelly touched it is my opinion that he should simply disappear into the shadows of the system that holds him and only be heard about or from when he's finally dead.
> ...


I am sure you are right. Why not campaign to stop stories like this being printed? If people refused to buy papers that carried such reports, then the publishers would stop printing them and the likes of Sutcliffe would sink back into well-deserved obscurity.



ouesi said:


> *Okay, that's just a cheap shot.*
> There is a huge leap between providing a prisoner with food and water, and providing a prisoner with a baptism.
> And an even bigger leap to go from not providing him with a baptism, and regularly inflicting pain on him.
> 
> ...


Why is it a cheap shot? Because you don't agree with it?

Perhaps he doesn't _need_ a baptism ceremony, but he wants one. We can all have a deeply personal relationship with God without any formal services, but to many people making a public committment to their faith is very important.

If he is genuinely repentant, then why should he not have one?

You, as an atheist, think he won't benefit from it anyway, so what does it matter to you?

I, as a Christian, think that if he is genuinely repentant God will know. And if he is genuine he deserves the comfort of God. If he isn't, he isn't getting any benefit other than the personal satisfaction of manipulating the JW's. So that is no skin off your nose either.

Where anyone's faith claims contradict the law of the land they will not be able to demand it anyway. All prisoners are allowed to follow their faith - the authorities have no legal right to deny it even if they wanted to.

I don't know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe - I have read about their beliefs but don't have real knowledge, so I don't know how central to their beliefs baptism is, but if it is central e.g. in the way that circumcision is to Islam, then Sutcliffe has a right to be baptised


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> I can't believe there are 3 pages discussing the rights & wrongs of his new 'religious' leanings and yet no-one seems at all upset that the tax payer is coughing up £300k a year to keep him whilst OAP's have to choose to eat or heat and hospitals have to put off procedures due to lack of funds!
> 
> That to me is the biggest bl88dy crime of the lot!!!
> 
> .


Even if they removed him, killed him etc, the £300k wouldn't stop OAPs from being cold and hungry.

He has been in prison for 30+ years...a lot of money and no doubt the keeping him there is providing psychologists with info on the mind of a psycho serial killer too.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Zaros I am sorry that you have never found comfort from God but believe me when I say I have worked very many night shifts in hospitals, long nights often looking after the terminally ill and many many of them do find comfort from God and from the brilliant hospital chaplains. Heaven may be a fictional place for you but it isn't for many - it brings comfort and hope and peace for a lot of people.


:001_huh: Why should I feel the need to look for or find comfort in a supposed God. A ghost that not one single man or woman throughout our entire history has proven beyond all human doubt exists?

If I fall down I don't expect to have some complete stranger pick me up and say 'There, there, there.' If I fall seriously ill I don't expect a witch doctor to shake a rattle above my fevered brow whilst incoherently chanting obscure well wishes for my diseased body. Yet I do expect to find some faith in the medical doctor's ability to cure me and if I find myself feeling depressed then I seek the reason/s why I am depressed and often find that, ultimately, I'm the one responsible for the thoughts that have brought me to such a state of mind. 
I'm not looking for a consolation to this life and am quite capable of standing on my own two feet without this odd accessory of a supernatural crutch.

If, however, at the end of my allotted time on this troubled planet, I find myself standing to face this God then I'm sure he/she/it will judge me for what I may have done and for what I may not have done but should have. 
I should also like to believe that I might receive forgiveness for whatever sins and indiscretions I may have committed in this world. They are but few and starkly superficial compared to those of tyrants, sadists and misfits.

Furthermore, if there is life after death then surely we'll know about it and if there isn't.........

In no way, shape or form, am I attempting to undermine anyone's belief in this God or this fanciful destination so many appear to crave, I'm simply trying to give a brief illustration how I personally feel about how I personally regard and view this world and this life. 
Perhaps I'm failing quite dismally to do so.:sad:


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *To become a JW you have to be baptised. You can't just call yourself a JW.*


thanx for this Janice, I didn't know they had to be baptised. Maybe that's why PS chose this as his path cos of all the attention he would receive in doing so.

I also think people like him get satisfaction from being in the news and being controversial.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> *Okay, thats just a cheap shot.*
> There is a huge leap between providing a prisoner with food and water, and providing a prisoner with a baptism.
> And an even bigger leap to go from not providing him with a baptism, and regularly inflicting pain on him.
> 
> ...


Its not a cheap shot Quesi and there is no need to take things personally. It was a question. You ask questions and so do I. Nothing more intended.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> :001_huh: Why should I feel the need to look for or find comfort in a supposed God. A ghost that not one single man or woman throughout our entire history has proven beyond all human doubt exists?
> 
> If I fall down I don't expect to have some complete stranger pick me up and say 'There, there, there.' If I fall seriously ill I don't expect a witch doctor to shake a rattle above my fevered brow whilst incoherently chanting obscure well wishes for my diseased body. Yet I do expect to find some faith in the medical doctor's ability to cure me and if I find myself feeling depressed then I seek the reason/s why I am depressed and often find that, ultimately, I'm the one responsible for the thoughts that have brought me to such a state of mind.
> I'm not looking for a consolation to this life and am quite capable of standing on my own two feet without this odd accessory of a supernatural crutch.
> ...


No you are not failing to do so, I completely understand where you are coming from and that you neither have nor need to believe in a god or heaven. I respect that entirely as its your opinion just as I hope/trust you respect the opinions of those of us who do believe/need/gain comfort from what our faith rather than science/evidence tells us.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No you are not failing to do so, I completely understand where you are coming from and that you neither have nor need to believe in a god or heaven. I respect that entirely as its your opinion just as* I hope/trust you respect the opinions of those of us who do believe/*need/gain comfort from what our faith rather than science/evidence tells us.


As you are quite able to read from the previous quote below, that was never my intention.:001_smile:



Zaros said:


> In no way, shape or form, am I attempting to undermine anyone's belief in this God or this fanciful destination so many appear to crave, I'm simply trying to give a brief illustration how I personally feel about how I personally regard and view this world and this life.
> Perhaps I'm failing quite dismally to do so.:sad:


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

lostbear said:


> Why is it a cheap shot? Because you don't agree with it?


Thats another cheap shot. 
RPHs was cheap because she compared being denied a baptism with being denied food and water. Please lets not pretend those two things are comparable. Theyre not.

Yours is cheap because you presume to know my motivations - being agreed with, which I can assure you it is not. 
You can believe what you want to believe about me (I have never said I was an atheist either BTW), but if you look at what I have actually posted on this thread, my motivation is simply compassion for fellow humans. Note my very first post in this thread was simply in response to the OP and their feelings of hurt. Something no one had even acknowledged in their fervor to defend religion. 
Telling innit?

While were at it, as for stones I may or may not be casting, I dont believe in punishment either - not even for PS. For one, what sort of punishment would even begin to be suitable to the crimes he committed, and two, I dont see how punishment would make him stop being a killer, or bring back his victims, or bring any peace to the remaining families.
No, I think he should be contained, kept away from the public for safety reasons, but punishment will do nothing.
And frankly he should also be out of the public eye. Like Zaros said (one of the few posters who seems to care about Sutcliffs victims), it has got to be so painful for the remaining families to see this man in the news over and over.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Thats another cheap shot.
> *RPHs was cheap because she compared being denied a baptism with being denied food and water. * Please lets not pretend those two things are comparable. Theyre not.
> 
> Yours is cheap because you presume to know my motivations - being agreed with, which I can assure you it is not.
> ...


For some people being denied baptism would be like being denied food and water. They may not be comparable in your eyes but that does not mean they are not comparable to people who follow a particular religion. Besides which I think you know perfectly well my question was not literal but one about punishment and how far it should be taken. I quite agree it must be painful to the victims families to see PS in the newspapers but that is a completely separate issue to him becoming a JW (several years ago) and being baptised. It would be good if the media stopped giving attention to murderers and rapists but I can't see that happening.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MoggyBaby said:


> I can't believe there are 3 pages discussing the rights & wrongs of his new 'religious' leanings and yet no-one seems at all upset that the tax payer is coughing up £300k a year to keep him whilst OAP's have to choose to eat or heat and hospitals have to put off procedures due to lack of funds!
> 
> That to me is the biggest bl88dy crime of the lot!!!
> 
> .


The latter is wrong and shouldn't happen
The former is correct and should happen, as I like to see this man punished for what he gets
A lifetime being denied a lifetime is bigger punishment than death


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Thats another cheap shot.
> RPHs was cheap because she compared being denied a baptism with being denied food and water. Please lets not pretend those two things are comparable. Theyre not.
> 
> Yours is cheap because you presume to know my motivations - being agreed with, which I can assure you it is not.
> ...


*I for one don't care about defending any religion. But if you go back to where the OP stated, " it's double standards", i merely pointed out it wasn't.
The simple fact is, one person, ie. the OP chooses not to follow the JW, and the person being debate, ie. PS does.
From the JW's stand point, who would you stand by?
I am not talking about the rights and wrongs of what PS did, just the religious point of view.
We also have to take into account ( for the believers), that god says he will be judge of all.*


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> He has been found guilty of his crimes. He has been sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison or now in hospital. He is forced to accept treatment for his mental health illness against his will. He is highly unlikely to ever be released. I don't know what else there is that God would want us to look at or do but this springs to mind
> 
> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
> 
> So I'm happy to let God make all the decisions about what happens to PS's soul after he dies as I can't pretend to be without sin and entitled to judge. The jury judged and found him guilty and he is being punished by the courts and the law, we have no power or right to force God to punish him too.


But his son is enormous, ours are likely to be far less serios. You can't really believe we can't judge him after what he did.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> The latter is wrong and shouldn't happen
> The former is correct and should happen, as I like to see this man punished for what he gets
> A lifetime being denied a lifetime is bigger punishment than death


Apart from being able to go to the shops or for a walk in the country, what exactly is he being denied? He's got tv, 3 meals a day, heating, a shop where he can buy chocolate..... As life goes, it's not that shoddy really.

At least if he was being made to do something like this, you'd feel he was being punished.










.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I for one don't care about defending any religion. But if you go back to where the OP stated, " it's double standards", i merely pointed out it wasn't.
> The simple fact is, one person, ie. the OP chooses not to follow the JW, and the person being debate, ie. PS does.
> From the JW's stand point, who would you stand by?
> I am not talking about the rights and wrongs of what PS did, just the religious point of view.
> We also have to take into account ( for the believers), that god says he will be judge of all.*


Very much agree
My post too meant this
I don't really think there is any wide problem here
Its just a religion running its religion


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MoggyBaby said:


> Apart from being able to go to the shops or for a walk in the country, what exactly is he being denied? He's got tv, 3 meals a day, heating, a shop where he can buy chocolate..... As life goes, it's not that shoddy really.
> 
> At least if he was being made to do something like this, you'd feel he was being punished.
> 
> ...


Maybe maybe not?

Still can't see the JW prob though


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> Maybe maybe not?
> 
> *Still can't see the JW prob though*


Me neither! 

.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

cinnamontoast said:


> But his son is enormous, ours are likely to be far less serios. You can't really believe we can't judge him after what he did.


I didn't know he had a son to be fair (sorry couldn't resist). What I meant and think I said in another post was the law/jury have judged him for his crimes and he is being punished appropriately but that we cannot judge on behalf of God as to whether he has truly repented and has been/will be forgiven and what will happen to his soul as a result.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> Yorkshire Ripper Sutcliffe 'enjoys specially-arranged baptism service' | Daily Mail Online
> 
> I am speachless. According to the JW's beliefs this man now goes through "Armaggedon" and gains eternal life in a Paradise Earth! What kind of person even thought to visit him!


Makes a change. Most of them pretend to be Catholic when they want to prove how remorseful they are.


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Maureen Long was left for dead with a gaping hole in her head and multiple stab wounds in 1977. She had a metal plate surgically implanted and had no real recollections of what actually happened to her. One of his more fortunate victims perhaps?
> 
> Wilma McCann, aged 28, was one of his more unfortunate and tragic victims. She was savagely attacked and murdered just 100 yards from her home.
> 
> ...


This is the reality of it...this is the sad heart breaking reality...this man does not deserve rights to any religion...he deserves nothing more than a cell with basic food and sanitary requirements, every single one of his rights should have been stripped away the minuit he was sentenced..after all, he stripped away the lives of others and took away someones Mother, daughter etc etc....he deserves nothing


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *For some people being denied baptism would be like being denied food and water.* They may not be comparable in your eyes but that does not mean they are not comparable to people who follow a particular religion. Besides which I think you know perfectly well my question was not literal but one about punishment and how far it should be taken. I quite agree it must be painful to the victims families to see PS in the newspapers but that is a completely separate issue to him becoming a JW (several years ago) and being baptised. It would be good if the media stopped giving attention to murderers and rapists but I can't see that happening.


Okay, if that is how you want to play out that argument, then I can say that you defending PS's religious rights is as painful to me as if you were putting a knife in my heart. It's not BTW, but if you can put religious needs on the same level as physical needs, you open the door to putting all sorts of other perceptions on the same level as physical realities.

You speak of taking things personally, and yes, I do. How could I not? I am a person, not a computer. These conversations are personal to ALL of us, I don't know why we try to pretend otherwise. Of course it is personal.

When you speak of being denied food equating to being denied a baptism, do you know what I think of? I think of my dear friend who watched her beloved husband die of ALS, who in the end could not chew or swallow, but she would put food on his lips and mouth so he could taste it and then she would scoop it back out. And you want to compare that to a serial killer being denied a pretend redemption that isn't even necessary according to most beliefs in god? What if someone like my friend were reading this thread?

How about just the victims of this killer? Don't you think it's more than a little insulting for the JW religion to basically be saying to them, no, you don't get to be saved, but this man who killed you, he can be. Because if we're going to say that baptism is a requirement, then that is in essence what we're saying - Sutcliffe gets saved, oh well for his victims.

I know I sound argumentative, but I'm not trying to argue. I'm simply trying to point out that religious "rights" are not our only consideration here. At some point you have to get your head out of the amorphous, impersonal religion and start thinking about the humans you are affecting with those religious beliefs.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Okay, if that is how you want to play out that argument, then I can say that you defending PS's religious rights is as painful to me as if you were putting a knife in my heart. It's not BTW, but if you can put religious needs on the same level as physical needs, you open the door to putting all sorts of other perceptions on the same level as physical realities.
> 
> You speak of taking things personally, and yes, I do. How could I not? I am a person, not a computer. These conversations are personal to ALL of us, I don't know why we try to pretend otherwise. Of course it is personal.
> 
> ...


*Getting down to the nitty gritty's, we should remember this guy is in a mental hospital. Now whether or not he is actually mentally ill is another subject. But lets assume he is mentally ill. What do you think the authorities should do?
He is there surely to be treated and looked after, and if the state do not look after all of his needs then they are surely failing in their duty.
Again, i will add, i'm not sticking up for PS whatsoever, just voicing how i see things.*


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Clare7435 said:


> This is the reality of it...this is the sad heart breaking reality...this man does not deserve rights to any religion...he deserves nothing more than a cell with basic food and sanitary requirements, every single one of his rights should have been stripped away the minuit he was sentenced..after all, he stripped away the lives of others and took away someones Mother, daughter etc etc....he deserves nothing


Like all criminals of any sort, no matter or minor or heinous the crime, he is not sorry he did it, he is sorry he got caught.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Okay, if that is how you want to play out that argument, then I can say that you defending PS's religious rights is as painful to me as if you were putting a knife in my heart. It's not BTW, but if you can put religious needs on the same level as physical needs, you open the door to putting all sorts of other perceptions on the same level as physical realities.
> 
> You speak of taking things personally, and yes, I do. How could I not? I am a person, not a computer. These conversations are personal to ALL of us, I don't know why we try to pretend otherwise. *Of course it is personal.*
> 
> ...


No its not personal, they are opinions. We agree on many things and we disagree on quite a few too. I am not attacking your personally but disagreeing with your opinion about this particular issue. You won't let this drop until you force me to accept your point of view which I'm not going to so we will have to agree to disagree. My Dad died of cancer aged 46 (I was 17 at the time) he screamed in pain and begged me to help him die but for the life of me I don't see what the heck thats got to do with whether or not a mentally ill man sectioned into a psychiatric hospital should be allowed to be baptised or not. My Dad's wife or my sister might read this but why would they find the baptism of someone they don't even know even relevant. The courts/the psychiatrists and the religious leaders of the JW's have no problem with it and neither do I so sorry if you find that offensive or difficult to understand but I don't.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Getting down to the nitty gritty's, we should remember this guy is in a mental hospital. Now whether or not he is actually mentally ill is another subject. But lets assume he is mentally ill. What do you think the authorities should do?
> He is there surely to be treated and looked after, and if the state do not look after all of his needs then they are surely failing in their duty.
> Again, i will add, i'm not sticking up for PS whatsoever, just voicing how i see things.*


That is true. Mental patients have more rights than prisoners and it was the argument which prevented authorities searching Ian Brady's cell in the hope of finding the photograph which might tell them where little Keith Bennett was buried. They were not allowed to search his room, because it was private - a gaol cell would not be. So his mother went to her grave without knowing because they were not allowed to deny the rights of his perverted murderer.


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Like all criminals of any sort, no matter or minor or heinous the crime, he is not sorry he did it, he is sorry he got caught.


How very true, unfortunately the people who allow him to live his life how he does don't see it in the same way, there are a few who still deserve the death penalty IMO


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> That is true. Mental patients have more rights than prisoners and it was the argument which prevented authorities searching Ian Brady's cell in the hope of finding the photograph which might tell them where little Keith Bennett was buried. They were not allowed to search his room, because it was private - a gaol cell would not be. So his mother went to her grave without knowing because they were not allowed to deny the rights of his perverted murderer.


*It's a sad fact that such rules are in place.The system sucks so much sometimes.*


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *Getting down to the nitty gritty's, we should remember this guy is in a mental hospital. Now whether or not he is actually mentally ill is another subject. But lets assume he is mentally ill. What do you think the authorities should do?
> He is there surely to be treated and looked after, and if the state do not look after all of his needs then they are surely failing in their duty.
> Again, i will add, i'm not sticking up for PS whatsoever, just voicing how i see things.*


Look after his needs yes.
I fail to see how a baptism is a need.

If we can say a baptism ceremony is a need then we can also say a marriage ceremony is a need, and any other religious requirement of any religion.

So, do we really want to start saying that religious ceremonies are a *need* for convicted criminals?


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No its not personal, they are opinions. We agree on many things and we disagree on quite a few too. I am not attacking your personally but disagreeing with your opinion about this particular issue. You won't let this drop until you force me to accept your point of view which I'm not going to so we will have to agree to disagree. My Dad died of cancer aged 46 (I was 17 at the time) he screamed in pain and begged me to help him die but for the life of me I don't see what the heck thats got to do with whether or not a mentally ill man sectioned into a psychiatric hospital should be allowed to be baptised or not. My Dad's wife or my sister might read this but why would they find the baptism of someone they don't even know even relevant. The courts/the psychiatrists and the religious leaders of the JW's have no problem with it and neither do I so sorry if you find that offensive or difficult to understand but I don't.


I'm sorry for the loss of your father, that must have been horrible.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Look after his needs yes.
> I fail to see how a baptism is a need.
> 
> If we can say a baptism ceremony is a need then we can also say a marriage ceremony is a need, and any other religious requirement of any religion.
> ...


*A religious requirement is not the same as wanting to get married.*


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> That is true. Mental patients have more rights than prisoners and it was the argument which prevented authorities searching Ian Brady's cell in the hope of finding the photograph which might tell them where little Keith Bennett was buried. They were not allowed to search his room, because it was private - a gaol cell would not be. So his mother went to her grave without knowing because they were not allowed to deny the rights of his perverted murderer.


Which should horrify anyone with half a heart. 
How can a murderer's right to "privacy" supersede the rights of a mother to know where her child was buried?


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *A religious requirement is not the same as wanting to get married.*


Marriage is a religious requirement for men in some religions and their sects.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Look after his needs yes.
> I fail to see how a baptism is a need.
> 
> If we can say a baptism ceremony is a need then we can also say a marriage ceremony is a need, and any other religious requirement of any religion.
> ...


but convicted criminals do get married in jail


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Marriage is a religious requirement for men in some religions and their sects.


*When it is in fact a requirement, then they have a duty to allow it.*


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> but convicted criminals do get married in jail


I know...

So do we want to allow a criminally insane serial killer of women to marry a woman?

Talk about slap in the face to the victims!


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I urge anyone to think about the heart break of the families of those involved before even giving this arse hole the time of day let alone any rights. Check out Alan McMullan, go ahead, have a look at what he did... He too took a life,, actually he took two lives, this beautiful young girl was buried with her baby after being murdered by an evil horrible man, who has since tried using mental health religion and anything else he can to fight his corner...none of which has worked because for once the justice system did good and sent him down for life..he will thankfully never get out....but every time he tries her family go through hell... I know this family well and have seen what it did to them I don't think people realise how it affects those close to them...their mothers, fathers, sisters and grandparents until they are in that position....no...these evil individuals do not deserve to repent, they deserve to rot in hell


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *When it is in fact a requirement, then they have a duty to allow it.*


So then where do you draw the line for allowable religious requirements?

A pilgrimage to Mecca? Too much?


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I know...
> 
> So do we want to allow a criminally insane serial killer of women to marry a woman?
> 
> Talk about slap in the face to the victims!


saw a clip on TV a few days ago about that Manson man...he not only wants a wife, but a baby aswell.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Clare7435 said:


> I urge anyone to think about the heart break of the families of those involved before even giving this arse hole the time of day let alone any rights. Check out Alan McMullan, go ahead, have a look at what he did... He too took a life,, actually he took two lives, this beautiful young girl was buried with her baby after being murdered by an evil horrible man, who has since tried using mental health religion and anything else he can to fight his corner...none of which has worked because for once the justice system did good and sent him down for life..he will thankfully never get out....but every time he tries her family go through hell... I know this family well and have seen what it did to them I don't think people realise how it affects those close to them...their mothers, fathers, sisters and grandparents until they are in that position....no...these evil individuals do not deserve to repent, they deserve to rot in hell


*It isn't a case of giving him the time of day or not. We are talking about what the " system" says is right. That's not saying i, or anyone else is agreeing with the system.
*


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> The problem is that it's a question of belief, and that's not something you can force. * If you just had to behave in a certain way to get to Heaven it would be something anybody could achieve,* but to have to believe in something without any evidence, and your actions count for nothing seems unfair. So someone can murder and maim, then start believing in Salvation and go to Heaven, someone else tries really hard to be a good person, makes all sorts of sacrifices for others but because they have doubts they go to Hell? Someone please give an explanation for the death of all those first born children who had to die so Moses could take his people out of Egypt, the heartache for their parents and siblings who had done nothing wrong except be ruled by Pharoah? These are the stories we all grew up on, and then we grow up and start asking questions, and we seem to know less, not more.


It IS something anybody can achieve.

As a Buddhist friend once said - "You want to go to heaven? Just be good."

I'm a Christian, but I don't for one moment believe that God writes off hugs swathes of humanity because they don't have the same beliefs as I do. There are plenty of very good people of all faiths, and of none - I think that the only difference will be that those who haven't faith will get rather a surprise when they meet God.


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

Clare7435 said:


> *I urge anyone to think about the heart break of the families of those involved* before even giving this arse hole the time of day let alone any rights. Check out Alan McMullan, go ahead, have a look at what he did... He too took a life,, actually he took two lives, this beautiful young girl was buried with her baby after being murdered by an evil horrible man, who has since tried using mental health religion and anything else he can to fight his corner...none of which has worked because for once the justice system did good and sent him down for life..he will thankfully never get out....but every time he tries her family go through hell... I know this family well and have seen what it did to them* I don't think people realise how it affects those close to them*...their mothers, fathers, sisters and grandparents until they are in that position....no...these evil individuals do not deserve to repent, they deserve to rot in hell


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Is IS personal, and to say it is not just feels callous and uncaring to those who have suffered so much at the hands of someone like this.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> So then where do you draw the line for allowable religious requirements?
> 
> A pilgrimage to Mecca? Too much?


I wouldn't be at all surprised if that hadn't already happened.

Myra Hindley went on little shopping trips when she was in prison. She had plastic surgery, got herself a degree or 2....and found religion.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> So then where do you draw the line for allowable religious requirements?
> 
> A pilgrimage to Mecca? Too much?


Last year we had the horse beef scandal where all sorts of meats were being put into our foods without us knowing about it. Prisoners who don't eat pork...and not just muslims here...had been fed pork in the dinner...massive uproar about prisoners rights.

Almost daily we have on our TV about prisoners going missing from prison on trips out. What is prison supposed to be about anyway? Public warned they may be armed and dangerous.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> Apart from being able to go to the shops or for a walk in the country, what exactly is he being denied?* He's got tv, 3 meals a day, heating, a shop where he can buy chocolate..... As life goes, it's not that shoddy really.
> *
> At least if he was being made to do something like this, you'd feel he was being punished.
> 
> ...


If it "isn't that shoddy" why do people in prison almost always want to be out of it?


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *It isn't a case of giving him the time of day or not. We are talking about what the " system" says is right. That's not saying i, or anyone else is agreeing with the system.
> *


I'm not talking about the system. I'm talking about my own opinions and how it must feel to the victims' families.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No its not personal, they are opinions. We agree on many things and we disagree on quite a few too. I am not attacking your personally but disagreeing with your opinion about this particular issue. You won't let this drop until you force me to accept your point of view which I'm not going to so we will have to agree to disagree. My Dad died of cancer aged 46 (I was 17 at the time) he screamed in pain and begged me to help him die but for the life of me I don't see what the heck thats got to do with whether or not a mentally ill man sectioned into a psychiatric hospital should be allowed to be baptised or not. My Dad's wife or my sister might read this but why would they find the baptism of someone they don't even know even relevant. The courts/the psychiatrists and the religious leaders of the JW's have no problem with it and neither do I so sorry if you find that offensive or difficult to understand but I don't.


This is how i view debates and discussions too
I really agree with you here
Im bound to say though (and I dont mean this to be personal ),.but I did say this on that Stephen fry God thread where I gave my views on various things such as general views upon the church of England, what does or doesn't constitute a biblical Christians, and my views of what makes a minister with all that in mind.
However, you were quite hard on me processing my thoughts as a personal attack upon BH
However, we agreed I hadn't used any harsh language or personal comments against BH.
as you are perplexed by the personalisation of opinion you are encountering here, I was perplexed the same on there. I think just because BH was a priest my views were processed that way, but priests are open to question and viewpoints too
And I only carefully posed posts as properly explained questioning

Just ano observation, no desire to cause an argument
Regards

In summary, if person A is explaining themselves in a general manner without personal comment against the individual, then it's just a discussion, so why does person B have the need to personalise the discussion?
It has no relevance, pertinance, or necessity
The only thing requires is person B to counter person A with their own good argument
As I said on the other thread, its all because it is a discussion forum

And I Very much agree with the rest of your post


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *I didn't know he had a son to be fair (sorry couldn't resist)*. What I meant and think I said in another post was the law/jury have judged him for his crimes and he is being punished appropriately but that we cannot judge on behalf of God as to whether he has truly repented and has been/will be forgiven and what will happen to his soul as a result.


Now that WAS a cheap shot :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lilythepink said:


> Last year we had the horse beef scandal where all sorts of meats were being put into our foods without us knowing about it. Prisoners who don't eat pork...and not just muslims here...had been fed pork in the dinner...massive uproar about prisoners rights.
> 
> Almost daily we have on our TV about prisoners going missing from prison on trips out. What is prison supposed to be about anyway? Public warned they may be armed and dangerous.


*But he is not in prison, he is in a mental health hospital.Just saying.*


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

prisoners get preferential treatment for dentists and health care.

PS was declared criminally insane...so what to do with him? Chain gang maybe? Siberian salt mine?what?


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *But he is not in prison, he is in a mental health hospital.Just saying.*


and detained during her majestys pleasure...

and it would have been easier for him to get released from prison than it ever would from a mental hospital.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I'm not talking about the system. I'm talking about my own opinions and how it must feel to the victims' families.


*Ah now, you see i was not including my feelings. That's a whole new thread.*


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *It isn't a case of giving him the time of day or not. We are talking about what the " system" says is right. That's not saying i, or anyone else is agreeing with the system.
> *


I appreciate it's about what the system says is right, it just frustrates me that the system sucks and gives people like this the rights they have that's all, if they looked at it from even a percentage of the families view justice might be done


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you.
> 
> Is IS personal, and to say it is not just feels callous and uncaring to those who have suffered so much at the hands of someone like this.


Unfortunately the justice system stinks and they don't look at it in even a slight way that the families left behind do


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> If it "isn't that shoddy" why do people in prison almost always want to be out of it?


then how many of them get released and end up straight back in there?lol


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> then how many of them get released and end up straight back in there?lol


Because they live better than a lot of people on the 'outside' I ont see them paying rent, council tax, struggling to put gas and electric in at the same time as making sure their families are fed


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> prisoners get preferential treatment for dentists and health care.
> 
> PS was declared criminally insane...*so what to do with him*? Chain gang maybe? Siberian salt mine?what?


At this point in time, we don't know enough about the human brain to be able to "fix" someone like PS. And please let's not presume that finding Jesus or Perseus even will "fix" him either.

So first we start on the premise that he will never be safe to put back out in society.

Since he is not safe, he has to be contained. That much I think we can all agree on. He has to be safely and carefully contained with minimal access to the outside world where he can do damage.

Aside from that IDK. If it were up to me, I'd say use him for medical experiments. No, really. Use him to help humanity. Study his brain, do brain scans on him, study his genes, his body chemistry, figure out what creates a person like this and perhaps from there figure out how to prevent people getting to this point of insanity. 
Heck, use his baptism for good - study his brain before and after the baptism and see if it makes a difference. You might even have an argument for converting all mental patients to JWs then.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> At this point in time, we don't know enough about the human brain to be able to "fix" someone like PS. And please let's not presume that finding Jesus or Perseus even will "fix" him either.
> 
> So first we start on the premise that he will never be safe to put back out in society.
> 
> ...


I am sure he is being studied every day and every conversation he has is monitored.

study the brain before and after the baptism? Like at post mortem you mean?


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Clare7435 said:


> Because they live better than a lot of people on the 'outside' I ont see them paying rent, council tax, struggling to put gas and electric in at the same time as making sure their families are fed


I would rather struggle to pay my rent, feed my family and generally struggle through life than be locked away and have all this taken away from me.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> This man does not deserve rights to any religion...he deserves nothing more than a cell with basic food and sanitary requirements, every single one of his rights should have been stripped away the minuit he was sentenced..after all, he stripped away the lives of others and took away someones Mother, daughter etc etc....he deserves nothing


I'm inclined to agree with you.

The odd phenomenon regarding these controversial issues is that folks always seem to remember the perpetrators of serious crimes but rarely, if ever, their victim or victims.

But then a trial by jury isn't about the victim and never was or has been. It's always been about the defendant and their right to a fair trial and an equally fair punishment befitting their crimes.
Whilst the victims fade into the background of insignificance the offender gets all the attention and, quite often, the warped and twisted status, they don't deserve.

Our most basic right to life is life and if some insidious reprobate purposely or deliberately deprives someone of theirs the perpetrator SHOULD rightfully be deprived of theirs also.

No rights. No privileges. Just a basic existence in solitary confinement behind cold hard steel bars.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

:idea:


lostbear said:


> I am sure you are right. Why not campaign to stop stories like this being printed? If people refused to buy papers that carried such reports, then the publishers would stop printing them and the likes of Sutcliffe would sink back into well-deserved obscurity.
> 
> Why is it a cheap shot? Because you don't agree with it?
> 
> ...


But does he? Does he really deserve complete forgiveness, when his crimes were so heinous? Surely, if he were truly repentant, he would be so full of remorse that he would be unable to live with himself; he would be trying to make amends in any which was he could, not trying to arrange his own selfish passport to heaven. And he would surely realise that raising his profile again will upset the families once more. If he cared one jot, he would avoid that at all costs, as he has done so much damage already.

It all feels wrong, but even saying that, it neither seems right to deny anyone
access to their religion.My concern would also be what else would this baptism entitle him too? Visits to church? Outings?

At least he wouldn't be able to celebrate that godforsaken day he was born. Or Christmas, if I've got it right.

But how on earth would the person undertaking the baptism satisfy them selves that he was truly repentant?

And if the likes of him make heaven, I'm not sure I'd want to be there.


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Zaros said:


> I'm inclined to agree with you.
> 
> The odd phenomenon regarding these controversial issues is that folks always seem to remember the perpetrators of serious crimes but rarely, if ever, their victim or victims.
> 
> ...


With some crimes I think straight sentencing should be given..no jury...no rights...just a sentence to fit the crime


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I'm not talking about the system. * I'm talking about my own opinions and how it must feel to the victims' families.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> You have very right to state your own opinions - but you have NO IDEA what the victims' families are experiencing. None of us do.
> 
> ...


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Clare7435 said:


> With some crimes I think straight sentencing should be given..no jury...no rights...just a sentence to fit the crime


Not that I agree with the crimes in this case, Peter Sutcliffe has done, but I do believe our jury system (while flawed in some cases) is the most fair method of providing a verdict.


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

lostbear said:


> ouesi said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not talking about the system. * I'm talking about my own opinions and how it must feel to the victims' families.[*/QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Summersky said:


> And if the likes of him make heaven, I'm not sure I'd want to be there.


Imagine that. Heaven. The promise of eternity and everlasting life rubbing shoulders with such likes as Adolf Hitler, joseph Stalin, Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Sadam Hussein, Son of Sam, Peter Sútcliffe, John Wayne Gacey, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Albert Fish and Fred and Rose West to name but a few.

I can't imagine any nightmare more terrifying.:001_unsure:


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Summersky said:


> :idea:
> 
> *But does he? Does he really deserve complete forgiveness, when his crimes were so heinous?*
> 
> ...


*

No-one can know someone else's mind, but as has been said time and again on this thread - GOD will know.

If you believe in God, this should be enough.

If you don't believe in God, the whole thing is meaningless, and that should be enough.*


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Imagine that. Heaven. The promise of eternity and everlasting life rubbing shoulders with such likes as Adolf Hitler, joseph Stalin, Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Sadam Hussein, Son of Sam, Peter Sútcliffe, John Wayne Gacey, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Albert Fish and Fred and Rose West to name but a few.
> 
> I can't imagine any nightmare more terrifying.:001_unsure:


I think I would rather have my head frozen with the slim chance I could come back with a mechanical body in 400 years time...just think cold laarus ...


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

My first thought was that Sutcliffe was making another attempt to make his life easier and perhaps to gain media attention also.

The debate that has ensued is about religious rights, about the rights of victims, and about how authorities are bound by rules they have to obey as regards the welfare of high security mental patients.
But what many of us are saying is that Sutcliffe is probably trying to work the system in his favour. And, considering that takes knowledge and cunning, it asks the question, 'how intelligent is Sutcliffe?'

The original investigation team described him as an 'evil genius' (or at least that's what the press reported), but it was also reported that early tests had given him an IQ of only 68, while later tests had found him to be of 'normal intelligence', circa 103.
Even those trying to up these figures a little by altering the questions could only make it to 110.
So was the 'evil genius' bit only because he fooled an inept police inquiry for so long?

And if he is not so intelligent that he can buck the system and fool (or possibly entrap) various JW representatives all on his own, which public servants or mental healthcare professionals are helping him with this? And if so, what the hell do they think they are doing?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> This is how i view debates and discussions too
> I really agree with you here
> Im bound to say though (and I dont mean this to be personal ),.but I did say this on that Stephen fry God thread where I gave my views on various things such as general views upon the church of England, what does or doesn't constitute a biblical Christians, and my views of what makes a minister with all that in mind.
> However, you were quite hard on me processing my thoughts as a personal attack upon BH
> ...


Thank you but we will agree to disagree about the other thread not least because BH herself said she felt you were questioning her integrity as a minister but you continued. I'm sure you didn't mean for that to be personal but it did come across as being just so. Other than that I agree with your post too.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lostbear said:


> *No-one can know someone else's mind, but as has been said time and again on this thread - GOD will know.*


Okay so, just for one brief moment let's suppose I believe in this all knowing, all seeing God.
Then wouldn't I be justified in asking WTF did this menace allow another menace to carry out such horrendous atrocities on innocent people?

I'm sorry but this God appears to be a thoroughly sinister and dangerous individual who likes to play equally sinister and dangerous games for his own amusement.

It's about time we launched a God hunt and put this tyrant in the courtroom.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Summersky said:


> :idea:
> 
> But does he? Does he really deserve complete forgiveness, when his crimes were so heinous? Surely, if he were truly repentant, he would be so full of remorse that he would be unable to live with himself; he would be trying to make amends in any which was he could, not trying to arrange his own selfish passport to heaven. And he would surely realise that raising his profile again will upset the families once more. If he cared one jot, he would avoid that at all costs, as he has done so much damage already.
> 
> ...


I don't know the answer to that but do know the JW's have been visiting him and taking bible studies with him for about 15 years and that he joined their faith several years ago so we aren't talking about a flash in the pan idea he decided to try out. I would assume there must have been much discussion and opinion seeking from those who knew him and worked with him before going ahead with the baptism.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Clare7435 said:


> lostbear said:
> 
> 
> > I do though ....burning alive sounds a pretty good punishment to me
> ...


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

silvi said:


> But what many of us are saying is that Sutcliffe is probably trying to work the system in his favour.
> 
> And if he is not so intelligent that he can buck the system and fool (or possibly entrap) various JW representatives all on his own, which public servants or mental healthcare professionals are helping him with this? And if so, what the hell do they think they are doing?


How does becoming a JW work in his favour, and how can it mean he bucks the system?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Okay so, just for one brief moment let's suppose I believe in this all knowing, all seeing God.
> Then wouldn't I be justified in asking WTF did this menace allow another menace to carry out such horrendous atrocities on innocent people?
> 
> I'm sorry but this God appears to be a thoroughly sinister and dangerous individual who likes to play equally sinister and dangerous games for his own amusement.
> ...


It's been done. (And the BBC did a very engrossing version of the Thora court discussion)

Wiesel: Yes, we really did put God on trial | The Jewish Chronicle


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thank you but we will agree to disagree about the other thread not least because BH herself said she felt you were questioning her integrity as a minister but you continued. I'm sure you didn't mean for that to be personal but it did come across as being just so. Other than that I agree with your post too.


Yes, whether you or BH initiated that perception isn't material to the point
BH can decide to take it that, so she did. But I replied I wasnt doing -in fact, I had written I thought she sounded like a good priest and I would join her congregation in a different church. So of course I continued my views, as they were my views, and I continued to express them again explaining my thinking.
I also explained I wasn't brings personal, but general.
Therefore, I would be content to carry posting my stuff again on that thread today, regardless if folk continue with that response, as that response is irrelevant to the discussion, as was the personalised response you got on here.

Hence your continued approach to personalise my own opinion was exactly the same thing you have complained that ouuesi has done to your expressing of your views on here?
For I too could have said it's my opinion, why are you or BH taking it personally, are you not going to be happy until I change my opinion?
And likewise whereas you say I still came over as personal, on this thread ouesi has given a similar rationalisation how she says you are coming over as personal (to her)

When clearly neither you nor I were doing no such thing on both threads.
Its the same thing


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lostbear said:


> It's been done. (And the BBC did a very engrossing version of the Thora court discussion)
> 
> Wiesel: Yes, we really did put God on trial | The Jewish Chronicle





> Jerusalem scholar Esther Farbstein, author of Hidden in Thunder: Perspectives on Faith, Halachah and Leadership during the Holocaust, was asked if there is any record of God being put on trial in Auschwitz. Mrs Farbstein said flatly: "No." But she added: *"There is no question that individuals did put God on trial in their minds,* so it is quite plausible that people did have this discussion. But I think it's a story, because I have never seen such a document testifying to such a trial."


And that's exactly where I firmly believe this God exists. He's a figment of imagination. An invention.

If he/she/it would like to make himself/herself/itself be known perhaps he/she/it can give us a sign via this thread...........

Who knows 
Where God goes
We call for him
He never shows.:sad:


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Yes, whether you or BH initiated that perception isn't material to the point
> BH can decide to take it that, so she did. But I replied I wasnt doing -in fact, I had written I thought she sounded like a good priest and I would join her congregation in a different church. So of course I continued my views, as they were my views, and I continued to express them again explaining my thinking.
> I also explained I wasn't brings personal, but general.
> Therefore, I would be content to carry posting my stuff again on that thread today, regardless if folk continue with that response, as that response is irrelevant to the discussion, as was the personalised response you got on here.
> ...


I'm sorry but I don't agree with you (no surprise there) but I think you did get personal when you went so far as to suggest BH should be a minister elsewhere rather than in her own church and many other people agreed that you had over stepped the mark with that comment. That goes beyond debating an opinion and steps into debating the actual person and their chosen faith/job/calling etc. I'm only debating opinions with Quesi and they are opinions about someone neither of us know.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

lostbear said:


> If it "isn't that shoddy" why do people in prison almost always want to be out of it?





lilythepink said:


> then how many of them get released and end up straight back in there?lol


What Lily said ^^^^^!!!!

Although - as already mentioned - Sutcliffe is not in prison.

.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

3dogs2cats said:


> How does becoming a JW work in his favour, and how can it mean he bucks the system?


I should imagine that, for anyone incarcerated in a secure mental hospital, or a secure prison, that anything new, however unlikely and however small, would be welcomed by an inmate/patient.
It could well give Sutcliffe an 'extra' that most other inmates do not get.
And then again, there is the controversy that this decision brings.

Never dismiss the small things which, in his situation, may be seen as advantages.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

lostbear said:


> No-one can know someone else's mind, but as has been said time and again on this thread - *GOD will know.
> 
> If you believe in God, this should be enough.*
> 
> If you don't believe in God, the whole thing is meaningless, and that should be enough.


Lostbear, you answered each of my points well, within my original post, and I admire you your faith. Personally, I find myself swinging this way and that. Especially in this case.

As you said earlier, there are those that have the amazing capacity to forgive even the most horrendous things. To me, these are the people, baptised, churchgoers or other wise, are the people who deserve to go heaven, if there is such a place.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Summersky said:


> :idea:
> 
> But does he? Does he really deserve complete forgiveness, when his crimes were so heinous? Surely, if he were truly repentant, he would be so full of remorse that he would be unable to live with himself; he would be trying to make amends in any which was he could, not trying to arrange his own selfish passport to heaven. And he would surely realise that raising his profile again will upset the families once more. If he cared one jot, he would avoid that at all costs, as he has done so much damage already.
> 
> ...


That all depends on what we perceive as forgiveness.

For some, forgiveness is a gift they give to themselves and it is freeing and releases anger.


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

lostbear said:


> You have very right to state your own opinions - but you have NO IDEA what the victims' families are experiencing. None of us do.


I'm sorry, but you don't get to say what I do and do not have experience with.



lostbear said:


> I am not saying that one response is right, and another wrong - what I am saying is that none of us can speak for anyone else, and none of us has the right to tell anyone else what their reactions to a particular situation should be. We are all entitled to our own feelings.


Exactly, and that includes me, I am entitled to my feelings too.



lostbear said:


> _In your opinion_ the victims' families must feel XYZ - but you don't know that. They might feel ABC. They might be people of strong faith themselves, and be pleased that he has found God in his life. YOUR insistence on this being a slap in the face for them might be what causes them distress. I certainly think that the newspapers should moderate their tone instead of trying to stir up emotions which come close to lynch mob mentality.


I never once presumed to know what the families must feel, I asked questions about how they *might* feel. 
The slap in the face comment was in reference to northsouth who articulated her feelings on this thread.



lostbear said:


> It must have been dreadful for your friend to watch her husband die of such a cruel disease - but it is totally immaterial to this discussion. Again you are projecting _your _ feelings onto other people, and making specious comparisons. And are you trying to make RPH feel guilty because your friend's husband suffered so terribly? Now that _would_ be a cheap shot.


This is twice now that you have presumed to know my motivations for posting what I post and how I post. You don't know me, you don't know my motivations, and you don't know how I feel. You're making an awful lot of assumptions about me based on things I haven't even said.



lostbear said:


> As RPH has said - baptism IS as important as food and drink to many people, even now, today, in the twenty-first century. In the past, many people were prepared to be burned alive rather than compromise their faith. In many parts of the world, people are still persecuted for their faith, and still refuse to compromise.
> 
> Please don't assume that because you don't consider baptism important, then other people don't or shouldn't.


And again, I said no such thing. I never said I don't consider baptism important, I never said others should not consider it important. What I said was you cannot compare providing a baptism to providing food and water. You know how I know that? Because if I don't provide my children with food and water, the government will take them away. If I don't provide my children with a baptism, nobody cares. They are not comparable.



lostbear said:


> As I have said before, I really can't understand why you are getting so upset about a prisoner in a high security psychiatric hospital prison, in a country that you don't live in, wanting to be baptised into a faith that you don't believe in.


And again, you don't know if I'm upset, you don't what I believe or what my connections to the UK might be. FWIW, you never asked either, you just assumed - again


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Summersky said:


> Lostbear, you answered each of my points well, within my original post, and I admire you your faith. Personally, I find myself swinging this way and that. Especially in this case.
> 
> *As you said earlier, there are those that have the amazing capacity to forgive even the most horrendous things. To me, these are the people, baptised, churchgoers or other wise, are the people who deserve to go heaven, if there is such a place*.


They are certainly much better people than I am. I find it difficult to forgive an injustice, particularly if someone other than myself has been hurt (how _do_ you forgive the pain of others?).

I won't pretend that I have never had doubts, but I have always come back to the twin conclusions that: Yes - God exists, and :Yes, God is good.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> That all depends on what we perceive as forgiveness.
> 
> *For some, forgiveness is a gift they give to themselves and it is freeing and releases anger.*


Excellent point. And most accounts I have read emphasise that.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I'm sorry, but you don't get to say what I do and do not have experience with.
> 
> Exactly, and that includes me, I am entitled to my feelings too.
> 
> ...


It's rare that I say "Because I don't care", but on this occasion that's exactly what I'm saying. Sorry if I upset your delicate sensibilities, Ouesi, but you often ride roughshod over other people's without appearing to give a damn. (NB I said "_appearing_"). As soon as anyone challenges you on anything, you bluster and complain and it becomes all about your feelings and how badly done to you are, and how people should be more considerate of you - but you don't extend the same courtesies to other people. On here we know what you choose to tell us, and if you don't say anything about yourself - which is your right - than you can't get on your high horse you are when someone treads on a toe they didn't know was there.

And my word - you are allowed to make assumptions about other people's feelings and motivations, but no-one else is allowed to challenge those assumptions?

Fair enough. Nice to know where the goalposts are (which seems to be wherever you decide you want them at a particular moment in time).

No - I don't know anything much about you - but nor do YOU know anything much about the people you are making assumptions about - including me. Sad that you can't even see the contradictions in your own posts.

On long threads like this, people invariably begin to mis-read posts, topics get mixed up and misunderstandings occur. Most people can come to terms with this without feeling the need to pick on everyone else and shift blame all of the time. Usually there is no blame - just differing opinions and/or a misinterpretation of what has been posted. Please stop all of this self-justificatory ranting and accept that you have said things that other people disagree with.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> They have access up to the last minute to religious counseling if they so wish.
> 
> There are religious representatives in all prisons. That is not the issue here.
> The issue here is that he is getting multiple visitors and his own baptism ceremony under the guise of religion. I think that goes above and beyond. And I cant help but wonder why it is even necessary if god knows what is in his heart, why the need for an intermediary and a ceremony?


I know nothing about the JW religion, but I am a Catholic.

In the Catholic Religion, a Baptism is a sign of commitment on the part of the Parents to bring up their Child in the Faith.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> That all depends on what we perceive as forgiveness.
> 
> For some, forgiveness is a gift they give to themselves and it is freeing and releases anger.


Agreed; but is self forgiveness the same as being forgiven and absolved of guilt by a supreme being? If we can all be absolved of all guilt by "repenting", does it then really matter how we live our lives? Surely it is then becomes a case of anything goes, because leading a Christian (or whatever) life doesn't count for anything, if all bad deeds can ultimately be wiped out?

This I don't get.


----------



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Can't wait until the next time a JW knocks on my door.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

I used to work opposite to a jehovah's witness 
At the end of each work day I used to say Armageddon outta here


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Can't wait until the next time a JW knocks on my door.


..and you will do what everyone else does and not answer?


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Summersky said:


> Agreed; but is self forgiveness the same as being forgiven and absolved of guilt by a supreme being? If we can all be absolved of all guilt by "repenting", does it then really matter how we live our lives? Surely it is then becomes a case of anything goes, because leading a Christian (or whatever) life doesn't count for anything, if all bad deeds can ultimately be wiped out?
> 
> This I don't get.


I believe that true repentence could happen at the last moment and you would then be forgiven from your sins. As a Christian you are supposed to live your life following the teachings of Christ and not as if 'anything goes'. Only God will know that you have truly repented and I trust that his standards are high enough not to let a 'Whoops I'm sorry' at the last minute be enough.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Summersky said:


> Agreed; but is self forgiveness the same as being forgiven and absolved of guilt by a supreme being? If we can all be absolved of all guilt by "repenting", does it then really matter how we live our lives? Surely it is then becomes a case of anything goes, because leading a Christian (or whatever) life doesn't count for anything, if all bad deeds can ultimately be wiped out?
> 
> This I don't get.


I_ think _ (correct me if I'm wrong LP) that LP means that forgiving someone else allows us to move on and stop obsessing about the wrong that has been done. In this way they release themselves from the need to hate and somehow take revenge. It in no way means that pain of loss (or whatever the hurt is) goes away; nor does it mean that everything is all right, and the wrong didn't mean anything, but it does mean that we can release that hideous torment which often accompanies non-forgiving, and which in many people blights other parts of their lives - and their children's lives, too. As long as that hate burns within someone, the perpetrator of the crime is still controlling them, and has won.

Many of the Jews who survived the Holocaust made a point of having good lives - that was their revenge: to not just survive, but to _live_, and have children and not let the shadow of that brutality fall across their children too. This didn't mean that they forgot what had happened (how could they?), but they didn't spend every moment seething and resenting. If the opportunity came to see justice done - to find perpetrators, to give evidence or to tell their story - they took it ; but they did not, so far as I am aware, try to do things that would perpetuate hatred.

Seeing a perpetrator brought to justice certainly helps - knowing that society, in the form of a jury and the legal system, has placed a value on the person hurt/destroyed, and has punished them, is a great comfort for most people. Of course, where a life has been taken (or destroyed, as in the case of such hideous crimes as rape and paedophilia) there can never be restitution because you cannot bring back a lost life, or resort a lost confidence, but at least the wrong has been recognised and the perpetrator forced to come face-to-face with their crime. To some criminals, this means nothing, but the important thing is that it helps the families of the victims to cope, and of course, it take a dangerous person out of society for at least a period of time.

There are some, and I would include Sutcliffe among them, who should never be released. I think he will always be a danger. In Broadmoor, he can be compelled to take the medication which controls his psychosis - out of Broadmoor he would be free not to do so. Who could say what would happen then?


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I_ think _ (correct me if I'm wrong LP) that LP means that forgiving someone else allows us to move on and stop obsessing about the wrong that has been done. In this way they release themselves from the need to hate and somehow take revenge. It in no way means that pain of loss (or whatever the hurt is) goes away; nor does it mean that everything is all right, and the wrong didn't mean anything, but it does mean that we can release that hideous torment which often accompanies non-forgiving, and which in many people blights other parts of their lives - and their children's lives, too. As long as that hate burns within someone, the perpetrator of the crime is still controlling them, and has won.
> 
> Many of the Jews who survived the Holocaust made a point of having good lives - that was their revenge: to not just survive, but to _live_, and have children and not let the shadow of that brutality fall across their children too. This didn't mean that they forgot what had happened (how could they?), but they didn't spend every moment seething and resenting. If the opportunity came to see justice done - to find perpetrators, to give evidence or to tell their story - they took it ; but they did not, so far as I am aware, try to do things that would perpetuate hatred.
> 
> ...


absolutely spot on...and its not from a religious viewpoint either really.Although, for very serious stuff, I honestly don't know how people can forgive and move on.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> That all depends on what we perceive as forgiveness.
> *For some, forgiveness is a gift they give to themselves and it is freeing and releases anger.*





lostbear said:


> I_ think _ (correct me if I'm wrong LP) that *LP means that forgiving someone else allows us to move on and stop obsessing about the wrong that has been done*. In this way they release themselves from the need to hate and somehow take revenge. It in no way means that pain of loss (or whatever the hurt is) goes away; nor does it mean that everything is all right, and the wrong didn't mean anything, but it does mean that we can release that hideous torment which often accompanies non-forgiving, and which in many people blights other parts of their lives - and their children's lives, too. As long as that hate burns within someone, the perpetrator of the crime is still controlling them, and has won.
> 
> Many of the Jews who survived the Holocaust made a point of having good lives - that was their revenge: to not just survive, but to _live_, and have children and not let the shadow of that brutality fall across their children too. This didn't mean that they forgot what had happened (how could they?), but they didn't spend every moment seething and resenting. If the opportunity came to see justice done - to find perpetrators, to give evidence or to tell their story - they took it ; but they did not, so far as I am aware, try to do things that would perpetuate hatred.
> 
> ...





lilythepink said:


> *absolutely spot on*...and its not from a religious viewpoint either really.Although, for very serious stuff, I honestly don't know how people can forgive and move on.


Thank you Lostbear, apologies LP - I took your post completely differently. You are quite right; forgiveness of the perpetrator of whatever crime can be healing; whereas holding on to anger, and wanting revenge can be damaging, and stop someone moving on.

There is, of course, a time and a place for self forgiveness too, again to allow someone to move on, but that is another thing entirely.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> I used to work opposite to a jehovah's witness
> At the end of each work day I used to say* Armageddon outta her**e*


Ouch!

I love a bad pun.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> I believe that true repentence could happen at the last moment and you would then be forgiven from your sins. As a Christian you are supposed to live your life following the teachings of Christ and not as if 'anything goes*'. Only God will know that you have truly repented and I trust that his standards are high enough not to let a 'Whoops I'm sorry' at the last minute be enough.*


Repentance because you fear the consequences of your actions is not repentance at all. It is only true repentance if the enormity of your crimes/transgressions weighs so heavily on you that can't bear how much you have hurt other people/God/creatures. Your own com for and peace of mind is not the motivation in true repentance, though it may come as a bye-product - true repentance is sincerely wanting to make things right (or as right as you can - often you can't).


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2015)

lostbear said:


> It's rare that I say "Because I don't care", but on this occasion that's exactly what I'm saying. Sorry if I upset your delicate sensibilities, Ouesi, but you often ride roughshod over other people's without appearing to give a damn. (NB I said "_appearing_"). As soon as anyone challenges you on anything, you bluster and complain and it becomes all about your feelings and how badly done to you are, and how people should be more considerate of you - but you don't extend the same courtesies to other people. On here we know what you choose to tell us, and if you don't say anything about yourself - which is your right - than you can't get on your high horse you are when someone treads on a toe they didn't know was there.
> 
> And my word - you are allowed to make assumptions about other people's feelings and motivations, but no-one else is allowed to challenge those assumptions?
> 
> ...


My posts do come across strongly, I agree with you there. I don't know why they do, it's not my intention, but I know what you mean.
They come across that way in training and behavior also, and I often try to temper them, and then I just sound condescending. *Shrug*

But "Self-justificatory ranting"? I don't even know what that is!
I also disagree that I am blaming others (what would I be blaming on anyone here?), complaining, or making assumptions - if you see that in my posts I would appreciate you point it out because I sure don't see where I have done any of that.

You know, interestingly, I had this conversation at lunch time today with colleagues - in person - that makes a huge difference. Though there were many passionately different opinions, it never got contentious. Oh well... lesson learned about trying to discuss such matters on line.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> My posts do come across strongly, I agree with you there. I don't know why they do, it's not my intention, but I know what you mean.
> They come across that way in training and behavior also, and I often try to temper them, and then I just sound condescending. *Shrug*
> 
> But "Self-justificatory ranting"? I don't even know what that is!
> ...


I think that applies to all of us so lesson learned all round. I had the discussion with my OH too and although we had different views we didn't fall out about it so no reason why we should on line.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> My posts do come across strongly, I agree with you there. I don't know why they do, it's not my intention, but I know what you mean.
> They come across that way in training and behavior also, and I often try to temper them, and then I just sound condescending. *Shrug*
> 
> But "Self-justificatory ranting"? I don't even know what that is!
> ...


It does make a huge difference - vocal expression, facial expression and body language as well as the fact that it is easier to follow exchanges and ask for clarification.

And as I mentioned, cross-posts etc easily lead to misunderstandings and often angry exchanges.

Like you, I feel that topics like these don't lend themselves to easy online discussions.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

From the comments in the Fail...

"Shame they didn't hold him under the water for a bit longer, like a couple of hours."

What the heck happened here ? Did someone wake up one morning with sod all to do and think it would be a good idea to invite one of Britain's worst serial killers into their flock ? There are other ways to do your good deed for the day.


----------



## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Reading through this thread reminded me of something a friend told me recently. He is a Christian, as are his family. Some years ago his father went to visit Broadmoor to give a sermon. 

Apparently the door opened and Peter Sutcliffe came in and the other patients fell silent. The atmosphere changed instantly. He described it as evil entering the room...


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2015)

Poundingpaws said:


> Reading through this thread reminded me of something a friend told me recently. He is a Christian, as are his family. Some years ago his father went to visit Broadmoor to give a sermon.
> 
> Apparently the door opened and Peter Sutcliffe came in and the other patients fell silent. The atmosphere changed instantly. He described it as evil entering the room...


Wow thats kind of scary really...

You know, I used to be of the opinion that everyone has *some* spark of good within them, maybe deeply, very deeply buried, but its there. 
And then one day I was talking to someone whos opinion I very much respect, and I was explaining this to her, how perhaps we dont ever see it, but that there is good in everyone.

She said, Nope. I think some people are just black souls. They have utterly and totally rejected their humanness on every level, there is nothing redeemable or human left to them. At the time I was very taken aback, this is one of the kindest, gentlest, most forgiving, open, and compassionate people you could imagine, she just exudes goodness. It really threw me to hear her say something like this.

But you know, it makes sense, if there can be people on this earth like Thich Nhat Hanh, who walk in to a room and their peacefulness is so powerful it affects everyone in the room, then there must also be the opposite no? People whos evilness is palatable.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> But you know, it makes sense, *if there can be people on this earth like Thich Nhat Hanh, who walk in to a room and their peacefulness is so powerful it affects everyone in the room, then there must also be the opposite no? People whos evilness is palatable.*


You could well be right - but again only God can see into the soul.

I wonder though, how the many people who knew Sutcliffe never felt this evil? Or the policemen who stopped him on several occasions prior to finding the weapon and arresting him?

He, and people like him, are most often described as being ordinary - maybe a bit quiet sometimes, but there are a lot of quiet people in the world. They are not all murderers.
_
Here is a quote from one of Sutcliffe's friends: Its a queer subject. When you know actually, that he is the Ripper but when youve known him as a friend, the biggest part of your life, to my mind, hes still a friend. I would go out with him tonight. WHY? Hes a friend. Hes a very good friend. Hes been good to me all my life. Hes helped me out, fixed me cars. If you ever needed a hand, you know, on your own, Peter would help you. If you ever needed a loan, if he got any money, Peter would help you. Hed do anything for you. You dont know what turns a fella that way or what causes him to do it. But Id trust him with my daughters, with my own daughters._

And isn't that the great danger with Evil? That it often wears a very attractive mask? If we could spot evil at a glance it would be very easy to avoid it; if we could see evil in people's faces we would not be drawn to their company and to follow them - whole nations have followed evil into the pit without realising it.

We do not know who we are standing next to - sinner or saint (most of us are bits of both); nor do we know what we ourselves are capable of, or what we could convince ourselves was "necessary evil".

The torturers at Guantanamo won't consider themselves evil people; many others don't consider them evil people. As far as they are concerned they were doing a job that had to be done. It is what Hannah Arendt termed "the banality of evil" - not that "evil" people are so different from the rest of humankind, but that they are not.

But Evil is corrupting. It starts small, things that we can justify to ourselves and to others, and increases its influence imperceptibly until the evil actions become everyday and ordinary. It is insidious and implacable - and when one object has been achieved it moves onto another. This is one of the reasons that we _cannot _ allow ourselves or others the indulgence of stepping over that line, no matter what the reason.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

lostbear said:


> You could well be right - but again only God can see into the soul.
> 
> I wonder though, how the many people who knew Sutcliffe never felt this evil? Or the policemen who stopped him on several occasions prior to finding the weapon and arresting him?
> 
> ...


See... I think you can if you're practised enough with it. Thankfully for most people they haven't been subjected to too many evil people so miss the very obvious signs of it. A fellow I used to work with spent some years working with psychopaths, paedophiles and rapists and could spot one in an instant. Working with many troubled teenagers myself, I can honestly say I can see the good and the bad in an instant, and on a very rare occasion we will have a person who has something innately, and inextricably, bad in them. And I can see it glaringly and know they will commit something awful in their future (and have had this proven right, sadly, with every prediction). It's not something definite, but when you study people you can tend to be a good judge of character like that.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Repent and you're forgiven, it's a central idea. I don't see how this is double standards? I have no idea if he's truly sorry or not but if he claims to be then yes, if they're right he will be forgiven. The same would apply to anyone.

It's something I've always admired and those who are capable of forgiving those who have wronged them. There was a bombing here by Catholics in a fairly peaceful, mixed town. A man and his daughter were caught under the rubble and she died before they could be rescued. He went to the trial and forgave the bombers then set up a charity trying to bring the communities together. It's better than hatred.


----------

