# Another failed attempt to bond



## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

I brought Pickles, Amos and Millie into a bathroom that they've never been in before. Millie was humping poor Amos constantly. Flattening him underneath herself. I moved them in the the shed that I had cleaned out and scrubbed out earlier while Pickles and Amos were in the kitchen.
I spent over 5 hours with them and the chasing and fur pulling didn't stop. In the shed - Millie was bullied but Amos and Pickles. Clearly they knew that it was their house and knew Millie didn't belong. To be honest I feel that I was more upset and stressed than the bunnies but I just decided that I didn't want poor Millie to be picked on by the other 2 - so I called it a day.
I really wanted it to work out and I hoped they could be a 3 some but 5 hours of bullying is just awful. So I guess Milie will definitely be living with me int he house. This is the second attempt at bonding. With Millie having to have dentals every 2 months - I suppose it's best that she is a house bunny so I can keep an eye on her. Also is the fact that the bond might be broken with the others when she is getting dentals so frequently and after the last time when she was kept in overnight - the bond would probably be broken.
Jacqui


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

you should have kept them in the bathroom till they calmed down, the shed was probably just too big a space, when bonding smaller spaces are best
try popping them all in a carrier together and going for a car ride

if you keep her inside with you will you be getting a friend for her? they really do do so much better with company


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

I didn't move the bunnies into the shed until almost 2 hours had lapsed. By this time they had settled down and they were on their own grooming, laying down or chilling. I decided to go to the shed then.
I rescued millie to have her live in the shed with pickles and Amos. I was not anticipating having a single house bun. I just can't afford another set of injections and possible vet emergencies. i would absolutely love a bunny friend for Millie. It won't happen as I don't have the money.


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

I think she will be fine on her own in the house, will she free roam? I loved having mine indoors, getting Rosie was the first step to them going outside!! I don't regret getting Rosie at all but I miss having Chester in the house. It's not the same anymore


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

2 hours isnt long enough, especially not if moving them into the shed, you need to keep them in a smallish space and slowly increase the area over a matter of a week - 10 days, in some cases more
or keep them in a totally neutral area for a week or 2


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

I appreciate the advice but I wanted to say that different people have different opinions about how to bond. I have seen different bonding advice here too. The girl who looks after the bunnies in the rescue where I got Millie and Amos actually told me not to wash out the shed before putting them in it. She said that they will always know their own shed no matter how much it is scrubbed. I did as she suggested and the bond with Pickles and Amos was successful within 4/5 hours.

My wee Pickles is a very nervous rabbit and always had been. She is absolutely petrified inside the house. I do not bring her inside because of this despite my wanting to hang with them in the living room every so often. Today she sat motionless for the 2 hours in the bathroom in a corner shaking despite my trying to get her out. She Was clearly stressed as she was breathing quickly and when I went to pet her, she tried to make herself smaller than she already was. I had to think about her too regarding the bonding. I just couldn't even think about keeping her in the same room for a day never-mind a week. She might very well have a heart attack I would imagine :blink:

Tink - she has a large room to free range all day and night. It has a single bed in it that she lies on and sleeps - spoilt  I don't know how large the room is but it is a double bed sized room and there is more space in the room for her to roam than Pickle's and Amos have in the shed. I bring her down to sit with me every day. I need to get her potty trained downstairs. I don't know why she isn't litter trained when down with me.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Sorry hun but moving them into the shed after 2 hours is highly unlikely to work, i completely agree with Lil Miss. 

The bathroom is also too bigger space in my opinion. If you seriously want to bond them then you need to seriously restrict their space, mine were in a tiny crate for 24 hours before i moved them to a very slightly bigger one, its almost being cruel to be kind scenerio.

I hate bonding because you know how much space i like my bunnies to have but i would never have managed to bond my four in this way, i made the mistake the first time of giving them a crate to start with that was too big and I would not have said they even had alot of room then.

My rationale is that for the sake of restricting their space for a few weeks it helps avoid territorial fights and the last thing you want is them getting hurt. I've tried bonding both ways in the past and this is the only way with group bondings of three to four bunnies that has worked. Pairs are easier to bond generally and bigger groups from what I've seen.

It depends how badly you want them to live as a trio, if you remember my bonding of my four was far from easy but now they all adore eachother and stick together in the garden too. It took me 5 weeks of having them in a dog crate and then I moved the dog crate into my new shed and slowly increased the space then. Everytime I gave them more space they became unsettled and it took hours of sitting with them to settle things, its a very gradual process for some group bondings.

I think the girl from the rescue is talking rubbish I'm afraid too, yes they know their shed, but removing their territorial scents helps keep them settled. How many groups has she bonded?


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

When I bonded Rosie, Daisy and Dylan (still had Daisy and before getting Lolly) I put them all in an indoor cage outside but left the bottom of the cage off so they were on grass. It was summer so got the hose and and sprayed all of them with the gentle mist setting on the nozel to get them all damp to encourage grooming. The fact they were wet distracted them from each other so they started cleaning themselves in front of each other and so started to relax. Any signs of agression (fur pulling, chasing, tails up etc) they got a quick blast with the hose on the shower type setting, literally just a press and release of the trigger to stop them being naughty. It took a couple of hours but they started to relax and lay together, once they showed they were relaxed I moved them to a small run (puppy pen) for the rest of the day, I stayed outside with them to keep an eye on them with the hose still ready and done a bit of gardening. Then in the evening when it started getting dark I moved them to the bathroom indoors, with the window open and they had the run of the bathroom for the night, which none of them had ever been in. Checked on them through the night and they all slept together, started cleaning each other so in the morning they moved to the shed. Again I had the hose ready in case anything happened and there was a bit of chasing but they soon settled and they were fine ever since. 

The water both distracts them from each other and encourages grooming. I only ever do this during summer when the weather is good and would never think of doing it if it was cold.


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## wacky (Jan 23, 2011)

very good idear ive used that tecneak on my dogs when they had a fight and it worked on them too but very clever for rabbits:thumbup:


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

Ok ... let me take the poor rescue girl off the hook. She told me that when I was bonding just Pickles and Amos how to do it. She didn't give me advice about 3. I guess I figured it would be the same bonding 3 as 2. So I am the one who botched up - not the poor rescue person. She bonds lots of bunnies all the times - 2,3,4 and more. She knows what she is doing so I do need to let you know that it's my major mistake. 

I need to get a carrier for the 3 of them. I have been trying to buy one locally anyway to transport them all to the vet when need. The pet shops here don't have biggish ones the 3 could fit in. I will look online and order one in the next few weeks when I get money.

Of course I want Millie bonded with Pickles and Amos. I really want her to have bunny friends and to be happy out in the shed and run. I do admit that I worry about her when she has her dentals and if that will affect the bond. I love Millie very much and I enjoy her company but some days I am out all day and into evening too. So she sometimes doesn't get to come 
downstairs. She has a great big room but I know she must be lonely. That was the reason I attempted the bond.

Crofty - do I keep them all inside while bonding and increase the space gradually. At what point do they go into the shed? It's difficult for me to block off space in the shed as I have a shelf the length of it and they would jump up there and get through my blockade lol I will chat to you and others again when I get the carrier and attempt to bond again.
Thanks and I am sorry for mix up.
Jacqui x


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## ChatterPuss (Sep 4, 2010)

When I bonded all of my rabbits, I started with the smallest possible space so they cannot get away so have to get on! I put 2,3, or 4 in a small pet carrier and sat with them while watching tv with the top open stroking all of them in turn and transferring the scents. I did this several times over a few evenings increasing the length of time. I then gradually put them in a small run ( the top off of cage and each time they chases or nipped, I squirted them with water, this started them washing and calmed them down. Gradually they got used to each other and I increased the time together and space. I have bonded several pairs, a 3 and a 4 together and they now love happily together !


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## Stufi (Mar 26, 2010)

I agree with the majority of the posts here.

Bonding can be very emotional and does differ from Buns to Buns but I have yet to have a failure yet.

My process is:

2ft x 1.5ft box/run/isolated area. A plastic rug underneath and cover the whole lot with shavings. 

Have a waterpistol, broom and maybe a vacuum cleaner nearby.
Firstly get them all together in a carrier/box and either take them on a 40min  1 hours car journey or (if you are able but I have not done myself) pop them ontop of a weshing machine during a cycle). This, although sounds cruel, does little more than disorientate them and shock them so that they concentrate on something alse and not each other. It also allows you to have them all together for 1 hours and pick up scents etc at the earliest opportunity.
Take them straight from the car and place them in the small space. I wouldnt put any food in for the 1st 30 mins and def no toys that they can fight over.
Now get comfy and watch. There will be some fighting and I always let the first fight go for a little while (horrible as it is). If you see any blood or latching on then spray with the water pistol until they stop whilst either clapping or shouting. This will disorientate them and shock them into stopping 9/10. If not then use the broom to get between and separate them (from each other fighting, not out the area). This may well happen a number of times but eventually, sometimes up to 3 days later they should settle a little.
Do not move them, increase the space or touch any of them for at least 2 days. At this point, if there are signs of eating together, grooming, laying together then you can probably leave them on their own. Increase the space very slowly, i.e. 1 Sq ft every 2 days (especially if previous bonding has failed) as each time new space is granted there is the possibility of dominance/territorial behaviour.
Be patient as it may take up to 3 weeks to be able to allow them the full space you want to give them and, heartbreaking as it is, too much too soon will just take you straight back to square one.
I have used this technique for our own and other peoples and once you get through the hard part you would be very unlucky to have a group that wont eventually get on.
Good Luck with the heartache but the end goal can be so happy for all (Hummins and Buns) involved


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

jaxb05 said:


> Ok ... let me take the poor rescue girl off the hook. She told me that when I was bonding just Pickles and Amos how to do it. She didn't give me advice about 3. I guess I figured it would be the same bonding 3 as 2. So I am the one who botched up - not the poor rescue person. She bonds lots of bunnies all the times - 2,3,4 and more. She knows what she is doing so I do need to let you know that it's my major mistake.
> 
> I need to get a carrier for the 3 of them. I have been trying to buy one locally anyway to transport them all to the vet when need. The pet shops here don't have biggish ones the 3 could fit in. I will look online and order one in the next few weeks when I get money.
> 
> ...


Yes thats what I did, I was lucky enough to have three different size crates, the first one they were in if you remember they really actually couldnt move at all but it was the only way I could start them off without Joey attacking Teddy. I took them for two car rides in that crate too first day, everytime they were becoming very unsettled I took them for a car ride. Once you get them into a decent size space, mine was a huge dog crate, i moved that crate into the shed early morning and madesure they settled, everytime i moved them it unsettled them for a while. Puppy pen panels are a great idea, they are pretty cheap and always come in useful.

Jacqui I can't stress enough how hard it is to bond bunnies you love into a group, you really do have to be strong and limit their space, as soon as they showed bullying behaviour or too much aggression mine got a spray of water. I felt like giving up so many times and was in tears several times too. It dosnt matter if its a pair or group i would always neutralise where they had been living anyway, its always good to start in a place that smells neautral even if they do 'know it'.

As for the dentals, can you not take all three together?

my thread when i bonded my last four if it helps... http://www.petforums.co.uk/rabbits/102892-ok-im-going-have-one-last-go-bonding-pics.html As you can see i started in the big crate and it didnt work so had to seriously downsize! x


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

jaxb05 said:


> Tink - she has a large room to free range all day and night. It has a single bed in it that she lies on and sleeps - spoilt  I don't know how large the room is but it is a double bed sized room and there is more space in the room for her to roam than Pickle's and Amos have in the shed. I bring her down to sit with me every day. I need to get her potty trained downstairs. I don't know why she isn't litter trained when down with me.


ahhhh sounds ideal! lucky bunny  are you happy to keep her in the house then?


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks so much for replies. \ crofty, regarding taking them all to the vet, my last vet said it wasn't necessary and that it wouldn't be good that I had a sick rabbit with a well rabbit, just after a operation. I have changed vets to one who has 2 rabbit savvy vets and they have a better reputation too. I will speak the the vet when I take Millie in for a check up. 
I think the main concern is that she was so unwell after the last dental. I would worry about her getting that sick and my having to keep her inside or even to have to be kept in vet overnight. I would be so upset to have the bond broken with the 3 of them. Perhaps there would be advice available for this.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

jaxb05 said:


> Thanks so much for replies. \ crofty, regarding taking them all to the vet, my last vet said it wasn't necessary and that it wouldn't be good that I had a sick rabbit with a well rabbit, just after a operation. I have changed vets to one who has 2 rabbit savvy vets and they have a better reputation too. I will speak the the vet when I take Millie in for a check up.
> I think the main concern is that she was so unwell after the last dental. I would worry about her getting that sick and my having to keep her inside or even to have to be kept in vet overnight. I would be so upset to have the bond broken with the 3 of them. Perhaps there would be advice available for this.


Oh no they shouldn't be put in together until she has recovered but they can put the other two in the cage next door, it just means they are all away from home together and smell the same when they get back. If she needs to come in then can you set a pen up next to her for the other two? If they are seperate for too long and smell differently the other two will become territorial over the shed again and eventually that bond will break down xx


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

Crikey - a lot of stressful work is ahead of me ... I will have to save the money to get the crates. Perhaps I can find a large plastic box or something else. I will look on ebay and gum tree to see if there is anything suitable and I couldn't afford to buy several different sized crates as I looked a few weeks at them and they are costly. I will have a wee look about - even charity shops.
When they are in the crate for the week - is it ok for me to move them to different rooms in the house. If I am in the kitchen - can they come with me? Also when I go to bed - can they come into my room? Otherwise - I wouldn't be happy for them to be in a room I wasn;'t in.
I'll speak to you Crofty (And others) whenever I am going to do the bond to get everything in my head as to what I will be doing. I am guessing that they get to get out of the smaller box for exercise? Possibly not? I'll have to get one of my friends who have a car to take us out for a drive with the three of them.
So when Millie has her operation - I put her in the shed with Pickles and Amos but with her in the dog crate? - until she is back to herself?
I am so not looking forward to this  I really want Mlilie to live the last lot of her years with others bunnies in a lovely home I have made for them. I'll have to pray a lot about this bond and that they will all become friends.
Thanks Crofty x
Jacqui


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## Guest (May 6, 2011)

I wouldn't move them from room to room tbh, as each move will unsettle them and set you back even more.
They need to have at least 72 hours of no chasing, biting or fur pulling befire you can make the move up to the next stage, no free range time no getting out for exercise until they are bonded I'm afraid as I mentioned this will just unsettle them further.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

jaxb05 said:


> Crikey - a lot of stressful work is ahead of me ... I will have to save the money to get the crates. Perhaps I can find a large plastic box or something else. I will look on ebay and gum tree to see if there is anything suitable and I couldn't afford to buy several different sized crates as I looked a few weeks at them and they are costly. I will have a wee look about - even charity shops.
> When they are in the crate for the week - is it ok for me to move them to different rooms in the house. If I am in the kitchen - can they come with me? Also when I go to bed - can they come into my room? Otherwise - I wouldn't be happy for them to be in a room I wasn;'t in.
> I'll speak to you Crofty (And others) whenever I am going to do the bond to get everything in my head as to what I will be doing. I am guessing that they get to get out of the smaller box for exercise? Possibly not? I'll have to get one of my friends who have a car to take us out for a drive with the three of them.
> So when Millie has her operation - I put her in the shed with Pickles and Amos but with her in the dog crate? - until she is back to herself?
> ...


I used dog crates because i borrowed two different size ones from mum but you could just make a very small pen. You could use two rooms but trouble with moving them is it does tend to unsettle them, i'd make the bonding pen somewhere you are most of the time and perhaps where you can hear them when you go to bed.

When Millie goes in take the other with her so they are out and smell the same then i'd make a little seperate pen or pop her in a crate in the shed so they can see and sniff eachother to reduce the risk of the bond breaking down. x


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> I wouldn't move them from room to room tbh, as each move will unsettle them and set you back even more.
> They need to have at least 72 hours of no chasing, biting or fur pulling befire you can make the move up to the next stage, no free range time no getting out for exercise until they are bonded I'm afraid as I mentioned this will just unsettle them further.


I agree


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