# High prey drive dogs - how do you manage?



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

As the title suggests really! Those of you with dogs with very high prey drives, how could you manage? What challenges arise for you as a result? How does it impact you day to day?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Mine aren't the highest prey drive dogs but they definitely have some. 

For me the biggest issue was how to stop them doing what I didn't do. I bought books on re-directing the predatory drift and the books were brilliant except they didn't really help with the issue I had. The book told me to remove the stimulus that got my dogs so worked up - well birds are everywhere, unlike sheep etc.. They weren't going to re-direct from a bird to a frisbee. 

So I gave in. And rather than going against them, I went in their direction. I taught them gundog stuff. And for Lou it has worked. He can now walk past a field of crows without taking off after them like he used too. Pen is a little more prey driven and it's taking us a little more time to work with her. 

As for other things - I avoid anywhere where it isn't safe for them to chase - they will give chase but generally recall or stop when I blow the whistle, however they are dogs so I make sure they are safe to chase in the environment in case my training fails.

It doesn't impact me too much day to day. Pen worries me more than Lou, as she'll kill anything she catches and she definitely wouldn't back down from Swans or Geese. Lou has proved he just wants to groom them.. Poor Coot got a dog wash a few months ago. 

Thankfully they're not interested in cattle or horses; sheep run so they're fun for them but they're always on lead and I don't think they'd injure a sheep. The level of interest in them isn't as high as it is for small prey. 

It's not the perfect answer to it but it works for us.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Skip has prey drive through the roof.

I think, for me, it took a while to realise that the trick is not working against his drive and trying to train him out of it (futile) but instead, working _with_ it.

I started working on impulse control and focus every day. It's not something you can leave and come back to a couple of weeks down the line.

With Skip, I'm still teaching him how to control it... It's a work in progress 

It did actually impact us every day. He started to suffer because I couldn't control his instinct. He wasn't allowed off leash, we couldn't go to places where we would see other wildlife etc.

So, I think the trick is to work with your high prey drive dog and not against him/her. Skip has improved dramatically over the last few months and now, instead of 'chase first, think later' mentality, he stops, stares and then is willing to redirect when I say 

He has been a true eye opener for me, as someone who grew up with very 'biddable' dogs... A Terrier has been a challenge but I wouldn't change him for the world and I've learned enough so that if I ever get another one, I'll be able to take different steps to achieve balance from puppyhood 

ETA: Don't get me wrong, we're still working on it and some things are still above his threshold, like cats... But he's only 15 months old and we're getting there


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I work with it.

I worked on a really strong "leave it" and "watch me" and a strong emergency down (still a work in progress but we are getting there)
I watch his body language the entire time we are out and about, and the moment I am about to "lose him" (as in his concentration shifts to chase/herd) I will redirect to a game of appropriate ball chasing or a "find it" game.

And finally if we are in an area that I may struggle to keep him with me then he is on a long line.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Its only because you posted this I realize how far my girl has come.

My dog has what I consider to be quite a high prey drive to the point she used to be 3 fields away in no time.

I read terrier centric dog training and since then I have been trying to work with her on her prey drive. The advice is to join in with the hunt, call them off the prey item treat and then go with them to hunt. Also create hunts for your dog with treats and help look for the item.

Since then she is now recalling off the chase to come get me, I then rush back with her start poking around in the hole or undergrowth with my stick making excited noises. I put her on lead and rush up to trees to get that squirrel.

I also point out likely looking birds for a chase (I'm not so good at chasing them), find interesting holes for her, drop treats in long grass etc. It works really well most of the time.

What I have tried yet is dealing with her horse obsession 

She doesn't chase cows or sheep but will chase horses and deer. Mine would definitely kill small animals.

I look like a complete numpty as the get that mole cheerleader but hey it works for me and in a bizarre dog person way I enjoy jumping up and down going "whatisit, get it, find it"


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

For me, I've given up. I've tried for two years and not made any progress. So now mine stay on the lead pretty much at all times and I'm going to try again once they are a bit older.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Same here with Arthur. We started out when he first came trying the usual methods of recall work but made no progress, he would not take even best roast lamb or steak or play with a toy so we had pretty much decided to keep him on lead and started looking at other ways to exercise him such as using the walky dog attachment on a bike and hiring an enclosed field but he was miserable and become more highly strung, vocal and destructive. Eventually we took advice from working pointer owners - Arthur is from Ireland and we think from working stock but was found as a stray and ended up in the pound. 

My OH works him as I'm usually tied up with Indie. He spent several months (9 - 10 I think) with him on a long line. We stopped avoiding areas with exciting smells and used them to help us. OH would get down on the floor with him when he found a scent and praise him then his reward is to "get on" to find it but he has to listen to OH and believe OH is helping him to find the bird (which he isn't by the way as we are not into shooting/hunting). It can be tricky as OH needs to keep with Arthur and work him from the whistle all the time, you can never just relax and slob along chatting when Arthur is off the lead so we now divide our walks up so when Arthur is off lead only OH is with him as me and Indie slow him down and if OH isn't there to direct him Arthur will make his own mind up and be gone. Sadly this means he does only get off his lead a few times a week and we have to drive to a large forest/heath with areas we know he is safe to run on despite living adjacent open heathland ourselves. He also wears a tracker collar to be extra sure we can see where he is when he does go out of sight. 

The hardest thing we found was getting him to recall to us (3 peeps on the whistle) I suspect he may have been punished in the past on coming back as it seemed to be a real block for him so we improvised on that and do "This way" (2 peeps) to change his direction back towards us and then "Wait" (1 peep) to get him to stop still. Gradually we got him nearer and nearer to us using that method and now he does come right back but just occassionaly if he is very excited about a scent he won't but he does stay still when asked to. As soon as we started doing the long line work with him his behaviour improved and he was a happier more relaxed dog all round.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Without too much bother tbh.

He is walked in a harness and flexi tape most of the time and seems happy enough. We have long and varied country walks and he is able to run back and forth, jump ditches, snuffle through woodland etc. (He has even managed to catch a rabbit and a squirrel whilst on his 5 metre lead ) 

Even in the fields behind my house there is no way I could risk letting him off - firstly, because they are not secure and he could run to a road fairly quickly and secondly, the local cats are often over there and I know he would chase and kill one if he caught it.

I have joked that he has no recall, but actually he does recall on the odd occasion when I have dropped the lead, but it is not reliable and especially if he were to spot a "prey" target.

I have a very large, secure field that I can hire to let him run in.

The only bother I have is, because he is on lead, other people's loose dogs are a nuisance. 

My garden is secure and most of the local cats have learned to keep out.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Without too much bother tbh.
> 
> He is walked in a harness and flexi tape most of the time and seems happy enough. We have long and varied country walks and he is able to run back and forth, jump ditches, snuffle through woodland etc. (He has even managed to catch a rabbit and a squirrel whilst on his 5 metre lead )
> 
> ...


what a clever boy catching his own dinner whilst on a lead. Impressed.lol


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Saluki x greyhound....misses nothing and sees everything. Such a good girl until a ruffle in a bush or a bird on the ground distracts her then recall is non existent.

She learned the hard way not to chase cats, she learned the hard way not to chase horses. Seems to be only way she does learn to leave things alone.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> what a clever boy catching his own dinner whilst on a lead. Impressed.lol


Yeah, except I'm a veggie and can't bear it! 

I obviously don't encourage him, but I have learned that the best thing is let him finish it off - he is very efficient!

First time it happened, I panicked and got him to drop it, which then left me with a dying bunny  Fortunately it died within seconds otherwise I would have had to put it out of it's misery 

He caught a rabbit once, just a short distance from a busy café with people sitting at tables outside, at the country park. He just dived in the brambles and came out with it in his mouth. Fortunately, we had gone down the hill and were out of sight.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> As the title suggests really! Those of you with dogs with very high prey drives, how could you manage? What challenges arise for you as a result? How does it impact you day to day?


Change the target as you cannot change the behaviour.

Ie nature abhors a vacuum so the chase instinct is redirected onto a ball.

Job done.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Yeah, except I'm a veggie and can't bear it!
> 
> I obviously don't encourage him, but I have learned that the best thing is let him finish it off - he is very efficient!
> 
> ...


My friend has a very active springer spaniel...soppiest dog you would ever meet.

She took the dog down to the local river and some old ladies were feeding the ducks. Friend never thought what would happen next, dog ran, jumped into the water and brought out a live duck that she promptly despatched in front of these old ladies.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Change the target as you cannot change the behaviour.
> 
> Ie nature abhors a vacuum so the chase instinct is redirected onto a ball.
> 
> Job done.


saluki won't play with a ball but maybe she could be distracted with something she does like. Good advice here, thank you.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

For ages people have told me that it's not the prey drive that is the 'problem' but how you manage it. The trainer I see specialises in IPO so most of the dogs in the classes (the more advanced levels) have WL GSD's who have incredibly high prey drive, watching how this is managed & channeled on to a ball, has been a massive eye opener for me.

With Roxy (GSD) I now realise that I can't go on walks as such where she is left to do her own thing, I need to engage with her on our walks, take her out for training sessions rather than ambling along on my Disney walks (as the trainer called them!!) 

Now I have adopted this more (we do lots of different exercises when out & lots of tracking) her behaviour has improved massively. She is not given to opportunity to b*gger off & do her own thing now. She has to walk with me (not to heel but in my immediate vicinity) as I do not want her poractising old behaviours.

It's been a big change in the way I view 'going for a walk' now but it works for us


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## Skinnywhippet (May 23, 2013)

I'd say mine's prey drive isn't extreme, but it's certainly more than enough to make her untrustworthy. So basically i'd never put her in a position where her safety depended on her obeying me above giving chase; she isn't a persistent chaser though so so long as there is some kind of boundary (fence, hedge, brambles even) between us and a road she will stop, and she also rarely goes out of my sight - the plus side of the separation anxiety, there had to be one! Because we are lucky to live near a large park her prey drive doesn't restrict her off lead time, but if we were in a more built up area or one with livestock then i think it would.

We did lots of work on redirection when she was little - mainly onto a tennis ball and thrower, and a soft latex ball which she throws around on her own and just carries in her mouth, and which she only gets given when outside. I actually had to teach her to retrieve as it's not a natural behaviour for her, but she now loves the game; it won't stop her chasing if a squirrel runs across her path, but it does give her something to think about other than staring fixedly into the distance looking for trouble, so very often i'll see a small furry but she won't. Also it's a good outlet for that high speed sprinting which hounds love so much, which i personally think is as much of an addiction for them, if not more, than actually catching stuff!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Acceptance first of all. My dog isn't ever going to be a bumbling old Labrador that plods along ignoring everything - she requires, err, more creativity. 

Nailing the recall. Recall means something nasty EVERY single time without fail. The recall then becomes too valuable to ignore.

Not setting her up for failure. She has limits and I have to respect those limits.

Using her instincts in a controlled way - for example directional control, sending her off in different directions to 'hunt'. This actually very useful for control.

Generally controlling the walks more but making it rewarding. Coming up to a corner where I can't see what's coming? walk to heel for a treat. Looks like she is about to pick the trail of something interesting? chuck a few treats on the floor for her to 'hunt' instead.

Walks are more like an endurance exercise sometimes, but for the most part it keeps her safe and happy, which is what counts!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Bess has a high prey drive where there are birds to chase. She's a work in progress. 

I didn't work enough on recall when she was small - I've never had a problem with the other dogs I've owned, so was unprepared with her. She's walked on a 10 metre flexi, so can sniff, follow scents and run back and forth. I can't let her off except where there are no roads anywhere nearby. She does come back, but in her own time. 

She won't redirect onto anything once she's got the scent of pheasant. But she's not bothered about rabbits. 

But she is getting better. She looks for me and is quicker to respond. I think we'll get there in the end if I keep the training up. 

Part f the problem is that she loves running, flat out, as much as the chase, and will tear off at top speed even with no prey in sight.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

We only have a slight problem with Zara but only in the respect of rabbits and we don't think that's anything to be concerned about.

Whereas Oscar just prays something might come his way from time to time. :ihih:

Poor Oscar. :sad:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> I work with it.
> 
> I worked on a really strong "leave it" and "watch me" and a strong emergency down (still a work in progress but we are getting there)
> I watch his body language the entire time we are out and about, and the moment I am about to "lose him" (as in his concentration shifts to chase/herd) I will redirect to a game of appropriate ball chasing or a "find it" game.
> ...


This; Kilo's prey drive can be a flaming nightmare. Even specks of cars in the very, very distance on a walk grab his attention and he'll fixate. Cats when we walk on the street, sheep when mountain walking etc took me ages to get to the stage of walking past calmly (he is NEVER offlead in the mountains BTW!!!). I have to consider it on every kind of walk we do and remain very attentive to what he is up to. We play loads and loads of chase games with toys so that he gets the opportunity to chase appropriately and the games give me the chance to train waits, emergency downs, chase recall, steadiness etc. His prey drive and impulse control have been, and remain, a huge challenge for me.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Its a work in progress currently. Io has quite a high prey drive and will currently run after anything that moves - I am currently trying to work on redirecting her but as I say its very much a work in progress, sometimes she will recall back to me and ignore the situation (and get a reqard) other times she won't.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I should have said that Roo will chase things - but he chases for fun and is (touch wood!) fairly easy to redirect. Kilo is a totally, totally different kettle of fish; he chases with utter intent and focus.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Tinker is a fiend for rabbits. It's not really a problem for us, as he's got a good recall, and like Beauty used to be with squirrels, the chase is over so quick (whether they catch it or not), barely even a couple of seconds, that it doesn't matter than I can't call him off a chase.

I don't even mind if they kill and eat it, but I felt by learning how to call him off I'd improve my recall training workshops and could then offer predatory chase training.

We're currently 10 days into a 'don't let him chase the things he wants' period. Ideally I'd walk him away from all scent as well as sight, but it's pretty impossible unless I walk him round the streets on a lead all the time, so we're sticking to the middle of fields in the middle of the day when rabbits are less likely to be out or have warrens.

We also work on his emotional well-being, as the 'high' he gets from chasing is now essential to his contentment so we're doing other things to make him happy, I'm trying to condition him to a special toy, but the first time I took it out to the park he wasn't interested in it, so that's not going as well as expected and has some work to be done.

We work on emergency stops, steadiness to movement, self control and focus on me. Things are going well - it takes up a ridiculous amount of time, I can understand why people keep chasers on leads...

Just ask me if you want to see some of the work, as I pretty much video everything...


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2014)

Alice Childress said:


> As the title suggests really! Those of you with dogs with very high prey drives, how could you manage? What challenges arise for you as a result? How does it impact you day to day?


Personally I love having dogs who have prey drive as it makes rewarding them so much easier.

As smokeybear said, change the target, not the behavior. Or as Michael Ellis says, make the obsession work for you 

Seriously though, a dog who will obsess about a squirrel is fairly easily taught to obsess over a squirrel-like toy instead, and once you have that, ta-da! Dog is putty in your hands


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Seriously though, a dog who will obsess about a squirrel is fairly easily taught to obsess over a squirrel-like toy instead, and once you have that, ta-da! Dog is putty in your hands


Easy? I'd have to disagree with that - either the dog is not actually in predatory drive, in which case yes it would be easy to get them playing with a toy, or the dog is in predatory drive and it's not easy at all to switch a dog intent on the predatory sequence, in whatever form it manifests to a soft toy. :/


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I gave up with Rupert in the end and just accepted that he'd always have to be managed and would never be trustworthy off leash. I tried stopping him, not a chance. I tried working with his drive but since he was only interested in live prey that made things difficult. He wouldn't even look at a toy, no matter what it was or how I used it, it wasn't alive therefore not worth bothering with. I tried rabbit skins, those scent things, flirt poles, all sorts, all to no avail. Perhaps a better trainer would have had more success but he didn't have one of those, just me lol.

Rupert never bothered with joggers, cars, cyclists or anything like that which is a problem I see a lot of people with dogs considered high prey drive having. Nor did he just rush prey blindly the way I've seen a few other dogs do, he reminded me of a lion stalking its prey to be honest, stealthily creeping closer until he was close enough to stand a chance. He'd leap up and knock pigeons out of the air as they flew over his head (or actually grab them if not muzzled). He remembered every single place he'd seen a cat, squirrel, hedgehog, mouse or whatever and would check for prey every time we passed. He would check under every parked car and every bush regardless. He didn't need movement to trigger his prey drive, if it didn't run it was simply an easier meal.

Spencer will chase if he gets the chance but it's just for fun and he's easily called off if he does start or distracted before he starts and has mostly learned to leave birds alone completely although he'll still joyfully race at them now and then if the mood strikes him and I miss the signs. There is none of the deadly intensity that was so obvious in Rupert.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Seriously though, a dog who will obsess about a squirrel is fairly easily taught to obsess over a squirrel-like toy instead, and once you have that, ta-da! Dog is putty in your hands


Yeah, people often used to make me feel like shite with Rupert by saying exactly that. And despite following any advice they could give me or point me to to the letter it never happened. If it wasn't live prey then it wasn't worth bothering with in his opinion.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, people often used to make me feel like shite with Rupert by saying exactly that. And despite following any advice they could give me or point me to to the letter it never happened. If it wasn't live prey then it wasn't worth bothering with in his opinion.


Lilly has never shown any real interest in toys - they stop moving she likes things that keep going, throw or shake a toy and she'll be vaguely curious until it stops moving at which point it may as well not exist.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Zelda has a high prey drive and we work with it to be honest as i really dont think its something we can work out of her, its part of her.

She is worst with cats, squirrels and rabbits. She is fine with other dogs and mostly birds although will love to flush out a flock.

During the weekdays when hubby is at work i do zeldas walks the majority if which are on public footpaths through fields so lots of bunnies and not many people so i keep on the flexi with her harness for her safety, there are too many roads, train crossings and fields with horses in for me to risk her off lead.

At the weekend when hubbys home we drive to a local meadow walk where there is a stream, lots of people, dogs off lead so she has so much to focus on that not one thing will make her suddenly go, she gets her ball or safestix there only and will come back providing we have something tasty like ham or cheese.

It works for us and she is happy, makes her weekend walks all the more exciting being off lead with loads of other dogs to play with, toys to chase and water to play in.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

BoredomBusters said:


> Tinker is a fiend for rabbits. It's not really a problem for us, as he's got a good recall, and like Beauty used to be with squirrels, the chase is over so quick (whether they catch it or not), barely even a couple of seconds, that it doesn't matter than I can't call him off a chase.
> 
> I don't even mind if they kill and eat it, but I felt by learning how to call him off I'd improve my recall training workshops and could then offer predatory chase training.
> 
> ...


I'd love to see if it's not too cheeky - I'm working on a fledgling chase recall and would love some tips


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Fleur said:


> Lilly has never shown any real interest in toys - they stop moving she likes things that keep going, throw or shake a toy and she'll be vaguely curious until it stops moving at which point it may as well not exist.


No, Rupert wasn't really interested in toys either. He'd hold one in his mouth to play with me because that's what he'd been taught but he never seemed to get enjoyment from toys themselves. Not like my others have.

I did manage to clicker train tug but for years it was something he'd do to please me, not something he enjoyed. The last few months of his life though he seemed to start enjoying it and perhaps if we'd had more time I could have got it to a level where I could have used it.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Daisy loves to chase, but she's all about the chase, not the catching. She will chase a running cat or a bird, but not outwith her comfort zone around us, she'll turn round and come back and can be recalled easily enough. She gets more excited about chasing her ball then other animals, she's very ball focussed so I use that to keep her focus on me and it works a treat (perhaps too well as she won't bog off once she knows I have the ball and will completely blank people and other dogs :lol. I always take a ball with us, even on non-ball walks in case I need to get her attention quickly and hold it. She will easily do an extended sit/stay with cyclists/runners/dogs/children/all of the above tearing past if I'm holding her ball.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Rosie used to chase after birds, other dogs, children and people. Anything was just too appealing to her. She also used to freak out at motorbikes, vans, trailers and buses, grabbing her lead and ragging on it in a frenzy.

I've finally got her to ignore all of them, using treats, (she has zero interest in toys).

When we go to the park though, if she even thinks she's seen a squirrel move in the wood, she becomes totally heedless and couldn't care less about the treats.

I can tell as a rule if she's about to go, she focuses on the wood with her ears up and I can usually catch her by telling her "Wait", she'll stop until I get her lead on.

If she actually sees a squirrel though, she's off like a bat out of Hell and nothing will stop her. Even when she's chased the squirrel up a tree, she just takes off round and round the wood at a gallop, searching for others, completely in a World of her own.

There's a busy road alongside this park so now, I keep her on the lead when we're in the woods and watch her like a hawk when she's off lead in the other areas.

She is from working Parents and Grandparents and I never really know whether that makes a difference, but her prey drive does seem to go off the scale at times.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I think 99% of it is timing with Kes' prey drive. I have to be very aware of surroundings and her body language, if I react a split second too late then she's off. Thankfully it's somewhat managed due to her size as she can't sprint fast enough to catch things so can be called off and comes back quite quickly.

Also getting her obsessed with chasing balls has helped enormously. She comes back to the whistle as she knows 9 times out of 10 a whistle call means a chase.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

When my dogs were younger they were a huge headache to me with their prey drive. I have a pointer who is obviously keen on hunting and ranging (although compared to most HPR's his desire to follow his nose isnt that strong) and he has a very strong kill instinct and will tackle pretty much anything. Plus I have collies who love to chase so 3 dogs running about chasing everything under the sun massively accelerated the appearance of my grey hairs.

I just managed it by taking them only to places where it was safe for them. Having said that, I used to walk in the Peak District every weekend and i'm amazed I never had any incidents (they have never shown any inclination to chase livestock, unless it's chickens which Flynn will and has killed).

I just started to do alot of focus work really and for 2 of them their attention can easily be directed on to a toy as they are very toy driven. However, as they have gotten older and entered their senior years, their prey drive has lessened and a very stern "leave it and come here!" works well. Just yesterday they scared some swans on the river as we rounded the corner and the fact it was shallow meant the swans were in danger so I just shouted the leave it command, called them back and got the tennis ball out. However, if an opportunity arises that is too good for them to miss, like a squirrel straying too far from a tree or a rabbit right under their nose, then they will give chase.

Jed is probably the least responsive to my commands but the fact that he is lazy and can barely be bothered to break into a run works in my favour


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

TBF I was very flippant and there are a (very small) number of dogs who are only interested in chasing feather or fur etc.

Just as there are a (very small) number of dog who are born killers of sheep. The rest can be redirected and controlled.

I have had one dog that was driven by prey, having said that had I known then what I know now I do believe I could have changed the target.

For dogs which have practised this behaviour over a long period of time, are still alive and been rehomed it can be very difficult to alter.

There is a big difference between poor recall and high predatory chasing.

The vast majority of dogs do not have the former due to failure of owner, very few have the latter which is due to genetics and failure of owner.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, people often used to make me feel like shite with Rupert by saying exactly that. And despite following any advice they could give me or point me to to the letter it never happened. If it wasn't live prey then it wasn't worth bothering with in his opinion.





BoredomBusters said:


> Easy? I'd have to disagree with that - either the dog is not actually in predatory drive, in which case yes it would be easy to get them playing with a toy, or the dog is in predatory drive and it's not easy at all to switch a dog intent on the predatory sequence, in whatever form it manifests to a soft toy. :/


Uh... I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad! Geez... forum is a little touchy today! 

I'm just sharing my own experience. It is *for me* easier to work with a dog who has drive than a damaged dog who's drive has been beat out of him or otherwise doesn't have a "go" button. 
It took me 2 and a half years to get a half-way decent recall on Lunar who was a very damaged dog with little to no drive for ANYTHING. Bates is hugely prey driven and I find him way easier to work with. I can entice him with food, with toys, with premack. My options are wide open.

I'm not talking about allowing a dog to get in to the predatory sequence and then shake a toy in his face and hope he chooses the toy. I'm talking about conditioning rewards and building drive for them. It *is* far easier to build drive in a dog who has a lot of drive to begin with.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Sarahliz100 said:


> I'd love to see if it's not too cheeky - I'm working on a fledgling chase recall and would love some tips


Here's the playlist - there are only 5 on there so far, and in no particular order. I have more on the computer and on the phone which I need to sort through to upload. I upload more from time to time.

It might not all look like working on chase, but it's all part of keeping him emotionaly balanced.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCVX5he-o19ZMlARVXMTZbve31gLvBrSr


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have to admit that I have never seen it as a big deal that my dogs chase stuff and it's not really something i've ever gotten my knickers in a twist about really, I just managed it as best I could rather than trying to stop them doing it altogether.

But maybe I feel that way because they have never run off, never chased sheep or cows etc and have always been relatively easy to recall back. They will only run so far before turning back to me voluntarily. I would probably feel differently if I had a genuinely troublesome dog that worried livestock or disappeared for hours.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I tried distracting Rosie with a ball once.

When I saw her look at the woods with her "I'm going to go" expression on, I whipped the ball out of my pocket, saying "Rosie, What's This" in my most excited tone and, when she glanced at me, I threw it.

She went after it at lightning speed and I was just about to congratulate myself when she reached the ball, jumped over it and carried on to the wood!

Talk about pride coming before a fall. 

It took me twenty minutes to catch her and only then because she had climbed into the fork of a tree after a squirrel and couldn't get back down.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, people often used to make me feel like shite with Rupert by saying exactly that. And despite following any advice they could give me or point me to to the letter it never happened. If it wasn't live prey then it wasn't worth bothering with in his opinion.


Jed is very much like this. He has little interest in playing with toys, even a flirt pole doesnt get much of a response from him, he'll have a short game of tug before getting bored and walking off etc, but it's genuine live prey that makes his instincts kick in. I have tried scent games, tracking etc but unless it's tracking a running pheasant or finding a hidden rabbit, he really couldnt give two hoots. And to make it even more difficult, he couldnt give two hoots about pleasing me and is really only out to please himself, thats why he cant even be trusted on the side lawn without a lead on. He sees a cat and he is off down the road, the other two will just watch the cat, maybe have a little grumble to themselves but wont offer to move off the property.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

BoredomBusters said:


> Easy? I'd have to disagree with that - either the dog is not actually in predatory drive, in which case yes it would be easy to get them playing with a toy, or the dog is in predatory drive and it's not easy at all to switch a dog intent on the predatory sequence, in whatever form it manifests to a soft toy. :/


I agree with you, a squirrel toy means diddly all to Molly, she wants the squirrel.

I read David Ryan's book and like SLB said, it was impossible to remove the target. Birds are everywhere so I am reading up about gun dog training. SLB if you have any links I'd much appreciate a share 

We have worked very hard on recall and whistle but largely I try to work with prey drive. I am always open to links and advice that work with than redirect as a simply do not feel the latter works for us.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I agree with you, a squirrel toy means diddly all to Molly, she wants the squirrel.
> 
> I read David Ryan's book and like SLB said, it was impossible to remove the target. Birds are everywhere so I am reading up about gun dog training. SLB if you have any links I'd much appreciate a share
> 
> We have worked very hard on recall and whistle but largely I try to work with prey drive. I am always open to links and advice that work with than redirect as a simply do not feel the latter works for us.


I know very little about gundog training, but I have been following some exercises from this site, and it all seems sensible to my uneducated eye.
Totally Gundogs


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> I agree with you, a squirrel toy means diddly all to Molly, she wants the squirrel.
> *
> I read David Ryan's book and like SLB said, it was impossible to remove the target.* Birds are everywhere so I am reading up about gun dog training. SLB if you have any links I'd much appreciate a share
> 
> We have worked very hard on recall and whistle but largely I try to work with prey drive. I am always open to links and advice that work with than redirect as a simply do not feel the latter works for us.


You don't have to remove the target - it just works better if you can. I can't remove Tinker's targets because it's rabbits and cats, and both are everywhere. Even with street walking he is searching for cats, which is part of the predatory drive. We compromise with the walks in the middle of fields, in the middle of the day. We're doing everything else, as well as the foundation exercises and steadiness to movement. We will be moving onto a bolting rabbit when we do level 3 of the clicker chase workshop.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I manage by not putting my girls in a situation they will fail! If in doubt get the leash out! 

But I have let them down a couple of times and a good stern voice has often brought them back to reality ... Makes me sound like a fish wife but still it works


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If there's one thing I could change about the Mals it would be there prey drive, they can smell something out of the blue and immediately change direction, sniffing the air and puffing - I hate it! 
On a long line its extremely difficult to hold them when they take off after a rabbit. They're only ever field walked and there's never anyone around so I've at last found a solution to avoid being dragged off my feet. I do what I call 'ball it' and sit down on the ground, knees tucked up and arms on my chest, they can't pull me over and they stop chasing once they know they're not going far. 

All three don't listen to any of us when they're on a chase, completely deaf and from the many other owners I know, they're all the same. To me that's the biggest problem of the breed by far. 
I would love to go out with them and play with a toy but they show no interest at all, must be lovely to interact with your dog instead of just exercising it but at least we can do that with the little guys.


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

With great difficulty.

Craven and Flint chase for the fun of it and to track scents,unfortunately the thing they both like to track are deer,and being hounds they don't do it quietly either.

I have been working on Craven for 4 years now and he's no better than he was where deer are concerned.He is always on a lead longline where I know there are deer.Which is difficult as they are all around here.

Unfortunately I do slip up sometimes like the other day,where we were walking is next to a river,I know and Craven knows there are deer on the other side of the river,it's quite a wide river,but tidal.We walk in fields next to the river and neither dogs have bothered all winter as the river has always been too high or too fast running,but the other day it was hot and I took them to the river to get a drink,the river was low and and Craven swam straight across,followed by Flint.

No point recalling them at that stage as I knew they would not come back.

So I got in my car and drove round to the other side and managed to pick Flint up fairly easily,Craven was not having any of it and it took me at least an hour to get him back.

Neither of them are interested in toys and they are not bothered with food when they are on a scent.

During the winter when they couldn't get to the deer they started looking for rabbits which they had never really been interested in before.,they never caught one in fact one hopped past Flint about 2 feet away from him,but because he was so intent on following the scent with his nose to the ground he never saw the rabbit.

So basically I manage it by avoiding areas where I know I will have problems or having Craven on a lead and Flint on a lead sometimes (he's not quite as bad as Craven),but they can still surprise me.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Some really interesting replies here, thank you! 

A few of you mentioned books on the topic, are there any people would especially recommend on prey drive?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Uh... I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad! Geez... forum is a little touchy today!


Not necessarily you Ouesi, I beat my head against a brick wall for years with Rupert only to be ridiculed by some people for the fact that no matter what I tried I couldn't redirect him onto toys. I think some of them are still convinced I'm a blithering idiot who shouldn't own a pet rock never mind a dog 

Spencer has been ridiculously easy to turn to a toy instead of birds, he's never shown any interest in horses and while curious about sheep hasn't shown any desire to chase. Cats he'll chase if he finds one but we so rarely see them here that there's no real chance to work on it.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Not necessarily you Ouesi, I beat my head against a brick wall for years with Rupert only to be ridiculed by some people for the fact that no matter what I tried I couldn't redirect him onto toys. I think some of them are still convinced I'm a blithering idiot who shouldn't own a pet rock never mind a dog
> 
> Spencer has been ridiculously easy to turn to a toy instead of birds, he's never shown any interest in horses and while curious about sheep hasn't shown any desire to chase. Cats he'll chase if he finds one but we so rarely see them here that there's no real chance to work on it.


No worries, I think my computer just defaulted to "offend" today without my knowledge. I wrote like 3 posts and one right after the other they got taken the wrong way LOL.

Dogs who have had the opportunity to self-reward with chasing (for whatever reason - not necessarily owner error) are obviously a lot harder to deal with, but I still contend that working with a dog who has drive (of any kind) is way easier than working with a dog who's not very drivey.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BoredomBusters said:


> Here's the playlist - there are only 5 on there so far, and in no particular order. I have more on the computer and on the phone which I need to sort through to upload. I upload more from time to time.
> 
> It might not all look like working on chase, but it's all part of keeping him emotionaly balanced.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCVX5he-o19ZMlARVXMTZbve31gLvBrSr


I watched the first one of these, teaching a dog to ignore toys and distractions.

Rosie already will do that. I often throw her ball in the house, where she is interested in chasing it, and tell her to wait until I say she can go and she will. Also, when she's off lead in the park, whilst we're walking, I can tell her to wait and sit and walk quite a long way from her before calling her. She always does it and comes running to me. Whilst she's waiting, nothing distracts her, even if another dog runs up to her, she focuses on me till I tell her to come.

It all goes pear shaped if she sees a squirrel or rabbit though. I've picked her up sometimes when she's only seen a squirrel and her heart is absolutely racing. She must get a huge rush of adrenalin when she sees one, which blots out everything else.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> Some really interesting replies here, thank you!
> 
> A few of you mentioned books on the topic, are there any people would especially recommend on prey drive?


I did the David Ryan seminar, and bought the book. I haven't read it yet, but he said the book was written from the seminar notes. Very good.

I haven't found anything that covers EVERYTHING that I've needed so far, but if you get a chance, go on this - Controlling Chase and Reliable Recall Training Workshops These dates have passed, but it's such a good workshop. We've done 1 and 2 and already it's made a lot of difference to Tinker. We're using the techniques for all sorts of training now.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Courses

How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

Saturday 5th July 2014
DOGS TRUST 
Roden Farm Lane
Telford
TF6 6BP
9.30am - 4.00pm
£50.00: which includes lunch
David Ryan
4 Day Ultimate Recall Course with John Rogerson
Date: 27 - 30 April 2014
Venue: Devon
Contact: Pauline Wise at [email protected]

Date: 24 - 27 May 2014
Venue: Birmingham
Contact Dawn Cox at [email protected]

Date: 3 - 6 July 2014

Venue: Wales

Contact Gail Gwesyn Price on Tel. 01686 688920 or [email protected]

.
Books

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts 
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

Teach your Dog to Come when Called
By Katie Buvala

Training your Dog to Come When Called
By John Rogerson

The Dog Vinci Code
By John Rogerson

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

DVDs

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Really Reliable Recall 
By Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Training the Whistle Recall 
By Pamela Dennison

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called 
By Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?

Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.

If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.

Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.

Including:
• How to know what's rewarding for your dog and what's not
• Five times when you shouldn't call your dog!
• Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
• What to do if you call and your dog doesn't come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

Dogtrain.co.uk

Website articles:

How to use a long line properly here (under information to download)

www.dogspsyche.co.uk

http://www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

List of Reinforcers

http://www.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htm

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/

How to Create a Motivating Toy

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e recall.pdf

Teaching Come | Ahimsa Dog Blog

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

Train a

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cue

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called

The First Steps to Teaching a Reliable Recall: Kathy Sdao - Bright Spot Dog Training

More on the Reliable Recall: Kathy Sdao - Bright Spot Dog Training

Lesson 6


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Sweety said:


> I watched the first one of these, teaching a dog to ignore toys and distractions.
> 
> Rosie already will do that. I often throw her ball in the house, where she is interested in chasing it, and tell her to wait until I say she can go and she will. Also, when she's off lead in the park, whilst we're walking, I can tell her to wait and sit and walk quite a long way from her before calling her. She always does it and comes running to me. Whilst she's waiting, nothing distracts her, even if another dog runs up to her, she focuses on me till I tell her to come.
> 
> It all goes pear shaped if she sees a squirrel or rabbit though. I've picked her up sometimes when she's only seen a squirrel and her heart is absolutely racing. She must get a huge rush of adrenalin when she sees one, which blots out everything else.


There are steps in between the what Tinker is doing and being called off the target. I can interrupt everything but the actual chase now. The next session I'll be doing with the trainer will be stopping him once he's started moving, currently he's stopped, then movement happens. I can drop him at a distance easily, so it's just a case of 'upping' the stakes until we can get to the bolting rabbit...


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Courses
> 
> How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan
> 
> ...


Shame with this huge list my recall training workshop never gets on it!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BoredomBusters said:


> Shame with this huge list my recall training workshop never gets on it!


I have never been on your recall training workshop therefore I cannot recommend it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> No worries, I think my computer just defaulted to "offend" today without my knowledge. I wrote like 3 posts and one right after the other they got taken the wrong way LOL.
> 
> *Dogs who have had the opportunity to self-reward with chasing (for whatever reason - not necessarily owner error) are obviously a lot harder to deal with*, but I still contend that working with a dog who has drive (of any kind) is way easier than working with a dog who's not very drivey.


This!! The fact that I 'allowed' (inadvertently) Roxy to practice this behaviour made it alot harder to manage especially as I am an inexperienced dog owner. I also do not think she will get forget the ultimate thrill she must have got during her chases & that's why she would constantly be on the lookout for an animal darting out (which isn't hard to find on our walks )

I have no doubt that despite all my hard work she would still chase if given a chance so I minimise this happening again; we don't walk in 'high risk' areas, she is not allowed to get too far ahead, I watch her closely to see if she goers in to 'hunting' mode, we do more training exercises, we play more, she goes on a lead/longline if she starts to ignore me, etc but it has made a HUGE difference to her behaviour. It is more hard work than just ambling along but worth it


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Rex has killed sheep (rams actually), kangaroos, rabbits and probably another dog; he's manageable. I use the following:

obedience training; heavy on recall and "leave it" and "watch"

never allowing him off-lead unless muzzled and working at the obedience club

very good fencing.

He's very good; I actually recalled him from a fight a few months ago (neighbour's child brought a dog onto my property, gates now locked) and I find the biggest problem is being lulled into a false sense of security. He is so calm and obedient that I am occasionally tempted to take him up to the farm or something ridiculous.:eek6: Then I come to my senses...

The price of Rex's life is eternal vigilance.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I nipped into a pet shop with Jack today, on the way back from having his nails clipped and he showed me exactly what would distract him from chasing a rabbit, squirrel or cat - A GUINEA PIG! 

I've tried all sorts, including a squeaky chicken leg - nothing works 

And he's not interested in food either.

I'm over it - he stays on flexi unless in a secure area.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Personally I love having dogs who have prey drive as it makes rewarding them so much easier.
> 
> As smokeybear said, change the target, not the behavior. Or as Michael Ellis says, make the obsession work for you
> 
> *Seriously though, a dog who will obsess about a squirrel is fairly easily taught to obsess over a squirrel-like toy instead, and once you have that, ta-da! Dog is putty in your hands *


Not all of them though. Jack has a squeaky squirrel which he loves to play with at home. Not interested unless he is in the mood, and definitely not outside when there are real ones.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Rosie has squeaky toys, many of them 'little animals'. She has no interest in them whatsoever.

A real squirrel sends her into a frenzy and she blots out everything else.

I have redirected her with treats from running up to other dogs, after birds, running up to kids, etc., but there's just no getting through to her if she sees a small furry.

It's as though I'm just not there.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Cleo38 said:


> For ages people have told me that it's not the prey drive that is the 'problem' but how you manage it. The trainer I see specialises in IPO so most of the dogs in the classes (the more advanced levels) have WL GSD's who have incredibly high prey drive, watching how this is managed & channeled on to a ball, has been a massive eye opener for me.
> 
> With Roxy (GSD) I now realise that I can't go on walks as such where she is left to do her own thing, I need to engage with her on our walks, take her out for training sessions rather than ambling along on my Disney walks (as the trainer called them!!)
> 
> ...


Disney walks, good name, I'm sure Adrian wont mind if I pinch it.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think there are different degrees of prey drive....I'm thinking that a Border Collie's drive is for the chase, which is why they will herd but not go in for the kill, whereas a terrier needs to kill small furry things, and the chase is just a part of that process.

I think it's not the end of the world if my BC chases wild deer, rabbits, birds or squirrels because I know that after a couple of hundred yards (or the nearest tree/hole in the case of rabbits or squirrels) his drive is satisfied and he's willing to be recalled. If I spot these things before he does then I can keep him with me. I've no idea how he would react to sheep cos he's never been given the opportunity........I scan for sheep on all unfamiliar walks, and he goes on-lead if I even hear one in the distance.

Maybe because I allow him to chase selected prey he is not too obsessive about it?

I have a whistle for recall at a distance. It was originally the 'emergency deer recall' whistle. When I thought this recall was getting not quite as sharp as I wanted I decided to reinforce the whistle training away from deer. I blew the whistle and he stopped dead and swivelled 360 degrees on his hind legs looking for the deer that he thought the whistle had indicated.

Obviously we can't walk off-lead in any of the Royal Parks (Bushey, Richmond etc) cos they all have deer.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Only one word  Leader


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2014)

Whenever these prey drive conversations come up, and I read through the frustrations we all share, I start musing about the whole pet-dog training industry and how focused it is on keeping a dog out of drive. Its all about the calm, the mellow, basically, always keeping the dog below threshold. Which is great n all, but I think leaves a huge gap. And frankly, I think there is a huge gap in the knowledge base in pet dog training on how to work a dog *in* drive.

For me working a dog like Bates in drive is frankly scary. There is no other way to say it. To deliberately put a dog in to a state of arousal you have been actively avoiding because you *know* that state is when bad things can happen. Thats where you loose the dog, thats where bites happen, thats where the dog becomes that embarrassing screaming banshee. 
And it took having very experienced trainers next to me basically holding my hand saying its okay, keep going to be able to do it. 

But the ONLY way to be able to control a dog in drive is to work the dog in drive.
As Hannah Brannigan explains it, you kind of have to go beyond the point of no return before you know where that point is. 

This is where pet dog training lets us down. Nothing about pet dog training teaches you how to work with a dog who is a notch below the screaming banshee point. All they tell you to do is to quickly get them de-escalated. Well, thats not what happens in real life. In real life youre sometimes going to have a screaming banshee and youre going to need for that screaming banshee to actually respond to you. It *can* be done, and is done all the time in sports like IPO, but you have to have lots of miles under your belt working the dog in drive to begin with.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Brilliantly put.

My girl Mira is a dream to work with when she is below threshold. Learning to work her "in drive" has come close to breaking me, but she has taught me how to be a better handler. A drivey dog would certainly be my preference in future.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Despite being the same breed, Dottie and Charlie have very different prey drives.

Dottie will sometimes chase (birds, cats, small furries) but once she gets close she will bark madly but not make contact.

Charlie...well. He is Mr Prey Drive and he means business. He will chase, attack and kill all of the above. I can re-call him away from birds, he's never off lead around cats or furry pets, but once dusk hits and all the foxes come out he's a wild beast and WILL NOT return. Hence long lines for night walks where I know wildlife is.

If we're out late (like we were tonight) I'll watch him carefully and if I think he's in hunt mode, I'll lead him up.

I do love watching Charlie change from "Charlie the pet Jack Russell" to a incredible hunting, stalking predator. To watch the body language and how he works to get to his prey is amazing, he really comes into his own and I cant believe I have the privilege of living with this canine.

We play with his favourite squeaky space hopper toy for the whole, stalk, chase and kill sequence. Not the same, but a safe alternative.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Linda Weasel said:


> I think it's not the end of the world if my BC chases wild deer, rabbits, birds or squirrels because I know that after a couple of hundred yards (or the nearest tree/hole in the case of rabbits or squirrels) his drive is satisfied and he's willing to be recalled.


Problem is, it certainly CAN be the end of the world. For the dog anyway. A dog chasing deer was shot here not so long ago. And plenty of others have been killed or seriously injured through it.

Ouesi, I've had the same issue. Everyone goes on about always keeping the dog under threshold, never letting it get to that point of arousal etc etc but in real life that is not practical and sometimes not even possible. More information on working with dogs who aren't totally calm is needed imo.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Linda Weasel said:


> I think there are different degrees of prey drive....I'm thinking that a Border Collie's drive is for the chase, which is why they will herd but not go in for the kill, whereas a terrier needs to kill small furry things, and the chase is just a part of that process.
> 
> I think it's not the end of the world if my BC chases *wild deer, rabbits, birds or squirrels* because I know that after a couple of hundred yards (or the nearest tree/hole in the case of rabbits or squirrels) his drive is satisfied and he's willing to be recalled. If I spot these things before he does then I can keep him with me. I've no idea how he would react to sheep cos he's never been given the opportunity........I scan for sheep on all unfamiliar walks, and he goes on-lead if I even hear one in the distance.
> 
> ...


It can be for those animals though - dogs have a huge impact on bird populations (numbers and diversity of species) and I have seen first hand the damage that is done to deer even by a short chase. They will keep running and running even if the dog stops - they end up impaled on fences, hit by cars or just dropping dead from exhaustion. Having been out with the Epping Forest keepers when they have to then clear up or despatch those deer I have no desire to contribute to the problem.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

L/C said:


> It can be for those animals though - dogs have a huge impact on bird populations (numbers and diversity of species) and I have seen first hand the damage that is done to deer even by a short chase. They will keep running and running even if the dog stops - they end up impaled on fences, hit by cars or just dropping dead from exhaustion. Having been out with the Epping Forest keepers when they have to then clear up or despatch those deer I have no desire to contribute to the problem.


Of course but its not a real problem after all the wildlife don't effects me and are just there for decoration. what @@


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jenny Olley said:


> Disney walks, good name, I'm sure Adrian wont mind if I pinch it.


Haha, he was quite pleased with this aswell & constantly refers to me & my Disney walks 

He was right though; I amble along looking at the lovely scenery, the wild life, the sunset or whatever & Roxy is off doing her own thing .....



ouesi said:


> This is where pet dog training lets us down. Nothing about pet dog training teaches you how to work with a dog who is a notch below the screaming banshee point. All they tell you to do is to quickly get them de-escalated. Well, that's not what happens in real life. In real life you're sometimes going to have a screaming banshee and you're going to need for that screaming banshee to actually respond to you. It *can* be done, and is done all the time in sports like IPO, but you have to have lots of miles under your belt working the dog in drive to begin with.


This is why watching PD work at WT & the dogs in the IPO class has been so fascinating for me.

I've made so many mistakes with Roxy (& probably make mistakes with my next dog - just different ones!) but have also learnt alot. Now, I don't want a dog that will amble along with me on a walk I want one that has drive, I want to learn how to work with this rather than trying to suppress it & I want a dog that I challenges me & makes me think alot ..... even if that means no more Disney walks!!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I manage the way owners of hunting and guard dogs have done for centuries. You take the prey drive and use it. 
So my GSPs have gundog training and my GSD and Doberman have toy-based training. 
It`s all about training, really.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Its the one blessing i have with buster, that whilst he likes to chase things - he isnt all that bright and never actually sees them in order to start (not before they have clocked him anyway)

This morning I saw 2 deer running away from us, across an OPEN FIELD - he didnt see, they were still visable for a good few mins. He startled a pheasant a week or so back, which was lying in the grass and he was standing about 2ft away more interested in a particularly large stick, and countless bunnies make their merry way across our path. He is totally oblivious.

Occasionally you can see he thinks hes seen something, as it disappears down a hole, but never seems quite sure and returns his attention to his stick.



No wonder the farm he came from didnt want him.....


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> This is why watching PD work at WT & the dogs in the IPO class has been so fascinating for me.


Right... Its all about building drive, capping drive, working the dog IN drive. We tend to think of drive as a working dog thing and forget how much it applies to living with pet dogs too. At about 2 minutes in ME talks about capping drive, and then about 3 minutes in hes talking about real world applications for a pet dog:

[youtube_browser]a0Y3HVWbJ7s[/youtube_browser]


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Right... Its all about building drive, capping drive, working the dog IN drive. We tend to think of drive as a working dog thing and forget how much it applies to living with pet dogs too. At about 2 minutes in ME talks about capping drive, and then about 3 minutes in hes talking about real world applications for a pet dog:


Great clip, I've watched a few training clips from him before. This is also exactly what the trainer I see promotes.

I now can totally understand how using play to get the dog in drive & using this can be so valuable for getting more control/obedience in other situations where the dog is overly excited


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Great clip, I've watched a few training clips from him before. This is also exactly what the trainer I see promotes.
> 
> I now can totally understand how using play to get the dog in drive & using this can be so valuable for getting more control/obedience in other situations where the dog is overly excited


LOL I should have just posted that video instead of the comment about getting a dog to obsess about a toy instead, I might have gotten less flack 

But yeah, dogs with drive ARE a lot of fun (for me) once you have the tools in place to work with them.


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dylan spends most walks on flexi. I have a few where I can let him off ie large open spaces as long as he can see me he will return. 

Teal just has a drive for pheasant but I can call him off and even if he does chase he stops when they fly.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> LOL I should have just posted that video instead of the comment about getting a dog to obsess about a toy instead, I might have gotten less flack
> 
> But yeah, dogs with drive ARE a lot of fun (for me) once you have the tools in place to work with them.


Lol, I'd still ask how the hell you're supposed to do it when you can't even get your dog interested in anything you can offer it. That was what my problem was, I just couldn't get Rupert even mildly interested in anything never mind get him excited about anything. In all honesty, trying to train Rupert was like trying to train a sack of potatoes a lot of the time lol, he was about as motivated as the potatoes. And I wasn't comfortable using the few things that DID pique his interest as rewards as that seemed pretty unfair on the animals.

Spencer is a completely different kettle of fish though. I'm not sure he'd be considered high drive (all this drive stuff makes me go  but I usually associate that with breeds like collies, malinois etc lol) but he really, really wants to do stuff. He loves to work whether it's for a toy, for treats or just because he's enjoying what he's doing. He is a hell of a lot of fun to work with.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I am a bit of a ME groupie, I have all his DVDs (I think)


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> I am a bit of a ME groupie, I have all his DVDs (I think)


Hes just amazing. His dog skills are just awe-inspiring coupled with a true understanding of the science. Hes on my bucket list of people to meet and spend time with one day. And Forrest Mike... And Denise Fenzi.... *sigh*
One day Im going to save enough to go spend a month out playing with them and their dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Hey smokeybear - speaking of drive, question for ya:

Ive noticed a lot of dogs when theyre high in drive but controlling themselves, will bump the handler or even press their bodies in to the handlers legs. Bates does that too, just yesterday I recalled him away from a chase (the rooster ) and while still high and watching the rooster he was leaning hard in to my leg. Whats that all about?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Hey smokeybear - speaking of drive, question for ya:
> 
> Ive noticed a lot of dogs when theyre high in drive but controlling themselves, will bump the handler or even press their bodies in to the handlers legs. Bates does that too, just yesterday I recalled him away from a chase (the rooster ) and while still high and watching the rooster he was leaning hard in to my leg. Whats that all about?


Kilo does this!! I had never really thought about it until I read your post.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

L/C said:


> It can be for those animals though - dogs have a huge impact on bird populations (numbers and diversity of species) and I have seen first hand the damage that is done to deer even by a short chase. They will keep running and running even if the dog stops - they end up impaled on fences, hit by cars or just dropping dead from exhaustion. Having been out with the Epping Forest keepers when they have to then clear up or despatch those deer I have no desire to contribute to the problem.


Sorry been away so will answer better late than never.

I mentioned Bushey and Richmond parks as no-go off-lead areas...should have specifically said Epping as well, as a former Royal deer forest!

I dunno what sort of freaky deer you have there....I walk in open countryside and can SEE what the deer do. They stop as soon as I call the dog back, even if they're still in the open. If they happen to come to a halt near a hedgerow/cover they will duck into it and stop there. There are very few dogs who could actually run down a healthy deer...Deerhounds and Staghounds (as in Devon and Somerset) come to mind.As a prey animal which also needs to conserve energy, deer DO NOT go on running till they drop dead or impale themselves on a fence . If by impale you mean caught in wire, this is another issue entirely, and often happens at dusk when deer are moving and misjudge the top wire when hopping over a fence.

Hit by cars as a result of being chased by dogs? There are many more reasons than this that deer cross roads. More likely hit by cars as a result of people driving too fast in places like Epping where there are known to be deer.

Decimating bird population? Only by running over the nests of ground-nesting birds and destroying the eggs. No prey drive involved there, and only when my dog grows wings will he ever catch a bird. Even Grouse, which are 'runners' will fly.

Squirrels, likewise. When my dog learns to use a ladder he might catch one.

Rabbits; if my dog ever catches one it will be very old or very sick, and if he doesn't kill it, I will.

As I said in my OP, my dog chases if and when and for as long as I allow him to. In open countryside where I can see what is going on; never in heavily wooded areas where the lack of visibility could be dangerous..


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

Dogless said:


> Kilo does this!! I had never really thought about it until I read your post.


Well have to bug Twiggy or Smokeybear next time theyre online and ask them about this.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Change the target as you cannot change the behaviour.
> 
> Ie nature abhors a vacuum so the chase instinct is redirected onto a ball.
> 
> Job done.


I do this with our collie. I felt like I was failing her by not just stopping her chasing. Glad to know I'm not.


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## Foxred45 (Jan 11, 2019)

I recently started working with a client and their "Prey driven" working cocker. Owners were beating themselves up because they would not risk letting the dog run free owing to the dog refusing to recall from chasing squirrels I open woodland and subsequently out of sight for an hour and a half !
She came back eventually, total exhaustion and massive stress for the owners who feared the worst etc etc.
Other trainers had become involved all of which worked in trying to counter condition the chase behaviour using various reward mechanisms to encourage the dog to focus on the owner.
None of the methods shown to the owners worked but hey I can't comment as I was getting third hand info and we all know how that can be... right ??
However I did explain that using the very behaviour they wanted to control/extinguish as a reward for paying attention in that environment could prove to be successful in teaching their dog some impulse control.
Once they had got their head around the psychology we made immediate progress. Dog on 40foot tracking line was taken into woodland and walked with the line shortened so dog was "close". I asked for a sit on the trail path and got it even though the dog was trembling with anticipation and fixated on the area in front of her. I was looking for eye contact ( however brief at first ) from the dog and i waited for nearly 10 minutes before she averted her gaze from her front and looked to sniff the bushes nearby. Using a clicker I marked that behaviour as a Start point and her reward was releasing her to chase whilst on the long 40ft line. I joined in and gave verbal encouragement before reigning her in and pressing the "reset" button..ie wait for the sit...wait for disengage...click..reward. 
Within a few minutes we had a dog readily offering the sit as she learned the fun came immediately after. This was a huge step forward for the owners. Calm behaviour in the woods..WOW !!
Moving onto shaping a look at me now to progress things and build duration before the release to chase.
Hopefully things can continue to improve with owners doing the work in between.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks so much for reviving this thread @Foxred45 - i hadn't seen it before but i am currently doing some work with one of my dogs in the woods.

My dog is no where near as uncontrolled in woods as the working cocker you describe (although she could go that way!)

I am already doing the sort of stuff you describe on the long line - she engages with me well really but great to see I'm on track with the right stuff.

She isn't a working cocker but a Brittany. Birds on the brain!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Foxred45 said:


> her reward was releasing her to chase


This is the only thing that worked for my dog who came to us already a confirmed chaser. I actually took it a step further and taught him a cue to go chase. 
To this day I can call him off a live chase, which where we live is pretty much essential.

I still contend a dog with drive is easier to work with than a dog without drive however much trouble it got me in when I first said it on here


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## Foxred45 (Jan 11, 2019)

Excellent stuff...I don't use compulsion if I can help it when working with dogs so I like to allow the dogs to control their own destiny so to speak. Waiting for her to offer the calm behaviour rather than trying to force it. Patience and a "wait out" approach can work even in a trigger rich environment. Operant conditioning in the real world !! 
Nowhere near to calling this case a success as yet but like your dog..a work in progress !!!!
Hope you continue to progress with your Brittany!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> however much trouble it got me in when I first said it on here


Lol just read through the whole thread and you did get a bit of flack didn't you:Hilarious

Even though you were right 

My brittany does try to be a good girl @Foxred45 - and most of the time she is very good - i dabbled in a bit of gundog training with her which was absolutely brilliant and really helped me understand what made her tick.

When we are in tune and she's working with me, she is amazing. But there have been occasions where she has been out of control (never in areas near livestock or roads thank goodness) and the speed of her is truly frightening!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Lol just read through the whole thread and you did get a bit of flack didn't you


LOL forums for ya 

I've mellowed a lot since then. Not to sound smug, but the dogs speak for themselves and I don't feel as much urgency to prove anything.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

This was a blast from the past .... must have been a few months before I got Archer who really was a very high prey drive dog but with the support of my IPO club (& his breeder) learnt from the start how to channel this.

With Roxy (who I referred to in the original posts) she has not chased anything since her 'Fenton' incident (which led me to seek help from the trainer I still see now). She is a lot older now so knows she's not going to catch the animal in question but I think my better management of her & using more engagement was key. Personally I would never use the Premack principle when it comes to chasing or having a cue to call them off as I just don't believe I would be competent enough to do this .... I don't want my dogs to get the thrill of a chase at all but to know that the excitement comes from me.

With Archer (my youngest GSD) any animal shooting out means he turns to me for his ball, so far we've not had any incident where this has failed (he's 4 now .... but there is always time!!) & he gets the best game of tug & me throwing the ball for him when he runs back to me. I don't take this for granted though & it is always something we work on & keep exciting.

I honestly don't believe some dogs will ever be trustworthy when it comes to not chasing wildlife but I do believe that we can manage this better & change our walks to make them more exciting for the dog (& us!)


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> Lol just read through the whole thread and you did get a bit of flack didn't you:Hilarious
> 
> Even though you were right
> 
> ...


Tablemabel in what sort of way did the gundog training help please? Emma as you know is a Lurcher & the speed of her has people stopping to watch (mother whippet a racing champion) she has pretty good recall on the whistle & I do use the recall, treat, send away to find/chase method but I am finding it so difficult to get 'eyes on me' if she spots a squirrel & just stares before the off. Would GDT help? She has yet to spot a deer & I'm pretty sure she would chase so I'd like to work on 'eyes on me' distraction b4 that happens. Any help much appreciated.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> I think it's not the end of the world if my BC chases wild deer, rabbits, birds or squirrels because I know that after a couple of hundred yards (or the nearest tree/hole in the case of rabbits or squirrels) his drive is satisfied and he's willing to be recalled


It was the end of the world for a friend's collie a couple about 3 years ago, who chased a deer and was found dead, after searching, with a broken neck from crashing into a tree. I don't expect the prey animals enjoy being terrified, either.



Linda Weasel said:


> Decimating bird population? Only by running over the nests of ground-nesting birds and destroying the eggs


 There are studies proving that wild birds avoid using areas heavily used for dog walking. They then nest in areas that may be less productive, are more crowded with other birds' territories, with more pressure on resources and a lower rate of breeding success.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi @DaisyBluebell. Tilly is my first gundog and my first working bred dog. Murphy (my tibetan) is a companian dog likes to be around me.
Before i got Tilly, i already knew that they could have a tendancy to go AWOL and many owners use/d shock collars on this breed so i was determined to start right

I got a gundog trainer very early on. He told me to nurture the retrieve (tilly is HPR but brittanies are much stronger on hunt point than retrieve)

He also showed me lots of fun hunting games to do with her so i was fun for her to be around.

When she was very small, like any pup, she wanted to be close to me so i used those early months to work with her off lead, hiding from her, getting her to follow me, looking for hidden treats in grass and building up her enjoyment of canvas dummies.

A key thing was not to allow her too much freedom - she was returning to me back and forth all the time for a game.

I also did a lot of steadiness training with her. Getting her to sit steady whilst i rolled balls by her or threw dummies all around. She wasn't to move.

As she got older we did directional work so she could locate a dummy i had dropped and walked on by or one that had been thrown ahead. It was teaching her to look to me for instruction like we were a team. And i whistle trained her from the start

This is very different from my other dog. I can walk with him anywhere at all, chatting away to a friend or just daydream along and 100% he will be ambling along very closely. I don't need to play any games and can be boring as anything and he will never bog off anywhere. He also self set his own safe distance from me and rushes to catch me up if he feels i am too far.

With Tilly, i have had to set a distance or she would be miles away.

I was caught unawares when she was 10 months. There was i thinking she was easy! And she was - below 10 months. Sharp as a tack on whistle. Never ranged far. Could go anywhere.

And then she did bog off one day for half an hour in a wood. Someone else found her. Stupidly, i thought the experience of being lost would keep her closer to me (it would with my tibetan)

It didn't. That was her hunt nose set to ON. Luckily, because of all the gundog stuff (and i have read anything i can find by pippa mattinson) i knew i had to put a stop to it immediately and got her on a long line.

I worked hard with all the engagement stuff again - retrieves, checking in and looking for permission from me to go.

It worked. Over the summer last year she was great again even in woods.

And then she slipped back in one particular wood only. So we are back there working again

Many areas she can go off lead.

Had i not had the gundog training, i wouldn't have built up the desire in her to retrieve. And i wouldn't have recognised the danger of letting her go far away. (When my TT was a pup, i never waited for him, i just carried on and he had to find me)

This would not have worked for tilly. If i just had let her discover the joys of the countryside and not reined her in, she would have been away for hours and miles.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

DaisyBluebell said:


> Would GDT help?


I'm not sure if it would help a lurcher - maybe someone else could answer that. The steadiness stuff is impulse control work really. Started in my kitchen and then moved outdoors. I don't see why that wouldn't help any dog

But the other stuff was based on giving tilly a job of hunting to do close to me so she didn't learn the pleasure of hunting self employed miles away. And that wouldn't work for a lurcher would it? 
Maybe @Lurcherlad can advise?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh wow...this has been fun reading through this again...I still stand by what I originally said


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## Chellie (Jul 30, 2015)

Very interesting thread for me as after 30+ years of owning dogs (mainly GSDs and Akita’s and a couple of GSD x Greyhounds) whose prey drive has been manageable with a reliable recall off the chase, I now have a dog who is off the charts. No interest in treats or toys and will hunt anything - even mice if there is nothing else. When she has been digging for mice I have held liver under her nose to see what happened and nothing, no reaction to it all, her focus was purely on the hunt so she has been restricted to longline walks and even then has had rabbits and pheasants out of the long grass when the other 3 have walked by oblivious to them being there.

Any tips will be gratefully received. Interestingly she has no interest in livestock which is a blessing, it’s only wildlife that presses her buttons.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BTW, this is the video I linked:
About 2 minutes in he starts talking about working a dog IN drive. 







Burrowzig said:


> It was the end of the world for a friend's collie a couple about 3 years ago, who chased a deer and was found dead, after searching, with a broken neck from crashing into a tree. I don't expect the prey animals enjoy being terrified, either.


This is where living without predators is hard for me to wrap my brain around. 
The prey animals here live with predators. It's life. They're used to being hunted and in mother nature's infinite wisdom, both predator and prey have a symbiotic relationship. In some ways, not having to adjust for predation is not healthy for prey animals either. Nor the environment for that matter. But I digress 

That said, allowing pet dogs to run havoc in nature areas is not on either.

Bates managed to impale himself chasing something in the woods. That was fun... He's also missing a tooth from chasing horses in his previous home. When it happened, his previous owners were sort of glad as they figured he would learn and stop chasing the horses - as most 'normal' dogs would, and in their experience had. But no, getting kicked in the face didn't deter the chasing at all... he just learned to duck 
Hence my need to teach him to still listen to me even when amped up in chase drive.


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

When it comes to lurchers, it might really pay to have them from pups and to manage them so that they never experience an uncontrolled chase. You might then have total control of the dog but I doubt it once they mature and become fully aware of their instincts. In my experience nothing will ever beat the thrill of chasing live prey for a lurcher with a normal prey drive.

I have got three lurchers. Dylan I reared from fifteen weeks. He has had gun dog training and did very well at it, I have made him ball obsessed, he will seek and retrieve a ball on command after staying where I have put him while I hide the thing a long way out of sight. He has also perfected the emergency stop where there is no prey. BUT none of this will be effective at stopping him if he takes as much as the first step of a chase. I learnt this the hard way and have had to admit I could not make him reliable in an environment where he might scent or see prey if I did not see them first and shout 'stop!'. Not every lurcher has this degree of prey drive but many do. My two bitches have different prey drives. Sophie probably has BC in her make-up and is not interested in killing, she is however a running machine and would use the excuse of anything running in front of her to have a good race. She is also very bright, can learn anything very quickly and will totally blow you off if she decides there is something she would like to do more. Rosie had been worked and I have spent the last two years trying to convince her retrieving a ball is an adequate substitute for the real thing with mixed success. She is totally nuts about possible prey and would spend hours tracking prey down prey so she can get to do whatever she would do then (not a clue what it would be as she has never had the chance to show me). I 'work' her by making her track deer on a long line and rewarding her handsomely when she does find and remains sane at the end. I am really trying to convince her that this is her vocation and our relationship has made good progress since we started doing that. Needless to say none of them are ever off lead in unfenced areas apart from Dylan in heavily frequented dog walkers haunts where all prey has already been eradicated.

I have had two GSDs. Their drive can be high but they are people orientated dogs and love working with their human while a hunting dog purposely bred to hunt and kill like a lurcher will think for himself and does not need a human at all no matter how much of a pet they can be, especially if they have spent any time being feral. I try to keep my dogs happy by satisfying their hunting instinct but I am still to find a way to make them 100% reliable. Again, all tips gratefully received! 

Edited. I watched ME's video after posting this. Very good point about building the drive before we can use it. This is what I am trying to do with my bitches at the moment. Toys and food can be interesting to them if nothing else is available but is nowhere otherwise. 
I can stop Dylan half way to a ball. He will disengage straight away when asked while playing tug. What am I missing?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> I'm not sure if it would help a lurcher - maybe someone else could answer that. The steadiness stuff is impulse control work really. Started in my kitchen and then moved outdoors. I don't see why that wouldn't help any dog
> 
> But the other stuff was based on giving tilly a job of hunting to do close to me so she didn't learn the pleasure of hunting self employed miles away. And that wouldn't work for a lurcher would it?
> Maybe @Lurcherlad can advise?


I can't be much help, I'm afraid.

After Jack ended up lost and on a road a couple of times, I wimped out and he only goes off lead in a safe, fully fenced area.

My excuse was at over 3 years old, an ex stray and probably ex working dog - he was too far gone to trust reliably again in the open - for me.

Another, more experienced (and dedicated) owner might have succeeded.

I figured keeping him alive (and the local wildlife/cats) was the priority, which I could manage


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> BTW, this is the video I linked:
> About 2 minutes in he starts talking about working a dog IN drive.
> 
> 
> ...


I love Michael Ellis, such great clips on Leerburg. We do a lot of these sort of exercises in our sport, I think the key is building on these exercises but too many people set the criteria too high initially.

It's very interesting watching the different dogs at my club dealing with such high arousal (especially in protection work); some dogs will be very vocal, some will not be able to hear any commands, some may shake (Archer does this at times) so it's about reading the situation & maybe lowering the arousal levels, if it's too high it will 'spill' out .... but at some times it might be about learning to work through the arousal depending on the dog & the exercise.

But it's practise, practise, practise & being consistent in the repititions. I think we expect so much from our dogs at times & really underestimate what work we need to do


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> I'm not sure if it would help a lurcher - maybe someone else could answer that.


I'm about to head out for the day, but a dog I know well (one of our house guests) is a silken windhound, who has excellent recall, yup, even off live chases, even with me who's not her owner. She is a silken who are generally more biddable, and she is owned by a dog trainer, so that helps, but I can share some insights on her and what her owner has done. If I forget to come back to this this evening, someone please remind me


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

DaisyBluebell said:


> Tablemabel in what sort of way did the gundog training help please? Emma as you know is a Lurcher & the speed of her has people stopping to watch (mother whippet a racing champion) she has pretty good recall on the whistle & I do use the recall, treat, send away to find/chase method but I am finding it so difficult to get 'eyes on me' if she spots a squirrel & just stares before the off. Would GDT help? She has yet to spot a deer & I'm pretty sure she would chase so I'd like to work on 'eyes on me' distraction b4 that happens. Any help much appreciated.


Whereabouts do you live? maybe someone can recommend a trainer or workshop near you. I'm in Norfolk & know of 2 local dog trainers who have sighthounds (lurchers & salukis) & might be able to offer advice regarding working with these type of dogs.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

tabelmabel said:


> Lol just read through the whole thread and you did get a bit of flack didn't you:Hilarious
> 
> !


Has anyone * not *had flack on here ? 

Didn't realise it was an old thread, will be reading through it ,

Like the ME vid. Thx for posting @O2.0


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

That's an interesting video you posted @O2.0 - especially the part about most working line dogs preferring toys as they get older. It's just lately i have switched more to toy reward for Tilly. She likes a tuggy reward and she will tug then 'out' - i haven't tried getting that rapid sit behaviour using a tuggy toy but i do use that with her ball thrower. The faster she sits, the quicker she gets the ball.
She is definitely more focused on me when i have fun games than food.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I don't know if you are missing anything @planete - as far as i can tell, even professional don't call their dog off a chase. That's not to say they couldn't (maybe with a shock collar) but they keep the dogs close to them at all times so that all the energy is harnessed ready to power the dog when it's instructed to go by the handler.

Certainly with gundogs, many of them aren't taken for "walks"

They work and train in the field under controlled conditions.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Whereabouts do you live? maybe someone can recommend a trainer or workshop near you. I'm in Norfolk & know of 2 local dog trainers who have sighthounds (lurchers & salukis) & might be able to offer advice regarding working with these type of dogs.


Thank you Emma actually comes from Norfolk, I am in Nottinghamshire & do actually know an ex police dog trainer & gundog trainer so I might check out that avenue. Emma is oblivious to food orientated training but ball obsessed & I think I will start doing more training with that.
Very thought provoking info from you Tablemabel thank you, I have Pippa Maddison's Happy Puppy book & will check her out other stuff, haven't looked at the video yet but will later.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> even professional don't call their dog off a chase.


I know you're talking about gun-dog training, but in bitesports there is definitely an element where you have to be able to call your dog off after being sent to a chase. Kind of important to be able to call a dog off a suspect  And no, doesn't necessarily require a shock collar. Bates is a good example of aversives not working as well as you would think on inherent drives. The horse that kicked him timed his kick perfectly, it fell under Steve White's rules of punishment on every level, except, it didn't deter the chasing. Instinctual drives tend to not respond as well to punishment. Which makes sense. The wolf who stops chasing a moose because the moose fought back is going to die of starvation. Nature put in some fail-safes there.

Okay, sighthound training. 
Silken bitch is a) a silken who tend to be one of the more biddable sighthounds though still very much a sighthound, and b) is owned by a dog trainer, though she did not get her as a puppy, she was a rehab case she kept.

A couple of things. One, lure coursing. Giving the sighthound ample opportunity to practice the behavior with parameters. You chase the lure, when I tell you, and stop when I tell you. Basically putting the behavior on cue. Silken bitch LOVED lure coursing. 
A lot of people think it's a bad idea to encourage chasing in a dog if you don't want them to chase, but in practice I've found the opposite. Putting the behavior on cue with parameters gives you a lot more control over it. 
Granted, not everyone has access to a safe lure coursing field, but there are other options like flyball or even some flirt pole stuff. Sighthounds do love a good flirt pole game.

The other thing I've found really helpful teaching all my dogs a recall is using peer pressure. If 2 out of 3 dogs have excellent recall, the 3rd tends to come by default. Granted this has to be within the context of a healthy 'pack' relationship (I know, I know, I said pack). Basically the dogs have to actually like each other and want to work together and stick together. Some sighthounds care about their friends and others don't. 
Conversely, if 2 out of the 3 dogs have bad recall, that 3rd dog's recall is going to go to pot pretty quickly if allowed to hang out with the hooligans too much. 
What helps me with silken's recall is that Bates' recall is awesome, and little dog despite all her terrierness is a bit of a mama's girl and likes to stick by me, especially when her mom isn't around and her confidence is not as high.

That's another factor. As a general statement, recall will be better in unknown areas because most dogs are going to feel a little less confident about their humans being around. To this end, I like to make myself scarce periodically just to keep everyone on their toes and paying attention to where I am. I find this is one area where long lines and leashes fail. Most dogs recognize them as a connection to the handler and are a little less inclined to check in because they know by the feel of the line that human must be nearby.

There are so many variables that go in to recall, and having a safe place to let the dog completely off to practice all those variables on a regular basis really is invaluable.

Ugh, long day, really tired... As I think of more stuff I'll add, but that's what I have for now


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

All very good tips but...Dylan has been lure coursing. He soon realised he was chasing a bundle of plastic strips and came back to me after a hundred yards looking thoroughly disgusted. We have a flirt pole, good for a bit of fun but just gets him fitter. All my dogs have very fast recall, just not with game around. None of my dogs would mind going off to hunt. They know they can always find me in a few minutes at the speed they travel and trust their scenting ability to track me if necessary. The countryside is their natural environment and they are thoroughly at home in it. I am still convinced a true hunting bred dog knows what his only purpose in life is. The only hunting mad little tyke who loves lure coursing is Ollie terrier. When he actually caught the lure, the lure man could not prise the lure out of his jaws even when he lifted lure and attached dog off the ground. I had to run up the course and retrieve my dog! But he would still go deaf and dive into a rabbit hole if given the opportunity. He is just a bit madder than the lurchers. The well enclosed exercise field we use is our life saviour where they can at least race each other several times a week. Which makes them financially rather high maintenance unfortunately.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

In the sport I train & now compete in (IPO or IGP as it's now called) there is a large amount of control required in the protection phase (bitework) as this is hugely arousing for the dogs as they get to chase a person in one of the exercises & bite the sleeve.

But .... they still have to demonstrate heelwork, return to the handler, sit calmly, etc between & during the exercises so going from hyper arousal state to obedient to defensive when under attack, a massive switch in drives & this will all be trained very carefully & in small sections. Everyone trains differently but I try to train where I can using a ball then build up to the helper (the person with the bite sleeve) & do a lot of control work in areas where there are distractions. If you look at some of the dogs at high levels they really are amazing to watch & the switch between drives is awesome but even speaking to some people I know who have achieved success at national & international levels a couple still have problems with their dogs chasing wildlife. Despite being great trainers, etc they still have this issue so I don't think people should beat themselves up that it's a training 'fail' as such, I think it's something that there are so many factors involved in & in most cases we can just learn to manage our dogs better.

I think in another thread @CheddarS mentioned environment playing a huge part & I really think this is true. My dogs get so excited when we go to my training club, Archer especially almost wails as we approach as he loves going there. Roxy still gets so excited when we approach the area she had her 'Fenton' moment several years ago. We can't control our environment (not as we would want to) so I think for some dogs on some walks just ambling along with them & expecting them to do the same just isn't going to happen, no matter how much we want it. I used to moan on about Roxy's chasing so much (plenty of posts on here about it!) until I met the trainer I see now & it changed my mindset completely, she was a dog who needed more engagement & didn't view walks as I did.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I also wonder if it's easier to call a dog off when it's been sent to chase by the handler - sent off to chase on handler instruction so it is still maybe 'listening' to the handler.

Whereas a dog that just shoots off of its own accord is in that red mist prey focussed frame of mind where it is incapable of listening.

I am no expert on the gundogs (or any kind of dog for that matter!) I'm still very much learning myself but it seems to me that the gundogs are not expected to shoot off of their own free will ever. When the lead comes off, they should not be going anywhere at all. They stay with the handler and are sent out under handler instruction only.(gundogs that do have a tendancy to go off without instruction seem to be curtailed by harsher measures than we would find acceptable on this forum)

The putting it on cue stuff does make a lot of sense - ian dunbar talks about putting squirrel chasing on cue as squirrels can get away up trees. (therefore the dog can enjoy the thrill of the chase without any harm done and can be taught controlled chase and stop chase behaviours)

Maybe it all comes back to keeping your dog in that zone of control. And for many dogs, once they are in full chase mode after that deer, it's a really advanced dog trained to high standard that is able to stop in full flight - especially at distance once it's got speed up.

An unrealistic goal for many pet dog owners but amazing if you can achieve it. Keeping the dog close at heel in areas of 'danger' might be the more achievable option.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Cross posted with @Cleo38


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

planete said:


> All very good tips but...


And that's really all they are - tips. What works for one dog may not work for another. And I think it's very true that sometimes we just have to manage out dogs better and stop beating ourselves up for not being able to train something.

Another issue with wildlife chasing is availability of wildlife to practice with. 
Where I live, we see deer and small furries literally every single day. My dogs live in an environment where I get to practice behaving around deer every time I let them outside, because if the deer aren't there, their scent is. In a sense, the novelty has worn off. So when a visiting dog comes, they're like kids in a candy store with smells and tracks and all sorts of fun stuff, until the resident dogs do their thing, rein the visiting dogs in so-to-speak, and everyone settles back down.

If you don't get to practice not chasing deer every day, of course it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to train that issue, and it may just be a matter of anticipating issues - some days dogs are more checked-out than others, some days there's just something in the air and the dog is not acting right, you can tell.... Those days you don't take any chances and keep that long-line attached


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

Totally agree O2.O. Knowing the dogs' limitations and our own is very necessary. I think my lot and I have found ours.  Though I keep trying...


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I am in an area with a high deer population. Never realised how high until we had Tilly! In a way, what has been reassuring to find is that Tilly doesn't really chase deer at all. She will go into an area of woodland, deer come out but she doesn't come out after them. 

Theproblem i then have is that she has got over excited on scent - she runs about the area in circles in a very excited state.
She does re-settle down again but she is definitely 'out of control' for up to 5 mins after disturbing deer. I am pretty hopeful i will be able to get on top of this. It's not a daily occurance by any means but I'm pretty sure we're passing close by deer most days - i don't think tills goes specifically in search of deer; she's just sniffing about and if she happens upon them, she happens upon them.

Deer aren't her primary interest - pheasant is preferred. She isn't really a chaser; she's fascinating to watch. She does the creeping stalking pointing behaviour. She takes it very slowly when she sees a bird that interests her.

And then murph bumbles in and away it goes. She's never caught anything, and don't think she will. I am glad i have had the chance to observe her with sufficient deer, hares and birds to know how she behaves with each though.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tabelmabel said:


> I am in an area with a high deer population. Never realised how high until we had Tilly! In a way, what has been reassuring to find is that Tilly doesn't really chase deer at all. She will go into an area of woodland, deer come out but she doesn't come out after them.
> 
> Theproblem i then have is that she has got over excited on scent - she runs about the area in circles in a very excited state.
> She does re-settle down again but she is definitely 'out of control' for up to 5 mins after disturbing deer. I am pretty hopeful i will be able to get on top of this. It's not a daily occurance by any means but I'm pretty sure we're passing close by deer most days - i don't think tills goes specifically in search of deer; she's just sniffing about and if she happens upon them, she happens upon them.
> ...


There are loads where I live as well, sometimes you can see them so can prepare but sometimes they will jump out right in front of you (or nearly on me in once incident!!). Mainly my dogs will give a specific 'deer alert', I have learnt to read them quite well now. It's interesting how different dogs find different scents or animals more interesting. As I said my two atm (Roxy & Archer) are very different, Roxy would (if she wasn't old & not so greedy) be wanting to chase deer or hares (another old fave of hers!) whilst Archer isn't interested, he would rather roll in rotting fish or fox poo when it comes to 'interacting with wildlife' 

Toby (my old dog) wasn't fussed with deer but loved to flush a pheasant out, he wouldn't chase it but just get in to the air so it squawked & he was happy. He was also very interested in sheep & would get very excited just seeing them standing about let alone running. I don't really know too much about Roxy & Toby's background as they were both rescues (Toby was 6yrs when I got him & Roxy 3yrs) so it may have been a learned behaviour with these animals or something else.

I was discussing this sort of thing with my sister over Christmas as her lab (her first dog) has never chased anything & she wondered why. Maybe she was a much better trainer than she thought, maybe when out with she was such fun that he never felt the need to, maybe is was genetic, maybe it was luck, maybe a combination of all of these but in her own admission she's never really thought about it or trained it as such ..... which is a massive annoyance for someone like me who struggled so much with Roxy's chasing!!!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Murphy, my TT is actually far more likely to give chase. But he is not one for getting in amongst any dense cover at all, much preferring to stay with me on main paths. He will give up within seconds; he is not a fast dog at all. He doesn't tend to disturb wildlife - he would rather chase a ball than a deer but if a deer does emerge from a wood, he is far more likely to go after it than Tilly is.

My friend with her working bred springer has got a great dog too - like your friend with the lab.

This springer is nose down sniff sniff wherever we go but always at very close range. Never a nuisance to anybody, just busily sniffing. And it just seemed that she got lucky with that dog because she certainly hasn't put the hours in that i have with tilly. Not fair is it!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

tabelmabel said:


> The putting it on cue stuff does make a lot of sense - ian dunbar talks about putting squirrel chasing on cue as squirrels can get away up trees. (therefore the dog can enjoy the thrill of the chase without any harm done and can be taught controlled chase and stop chase behaviours)


Adam once chased a squirrel out of a park (that was full of trees) and onto a main road...and he isnt even all that prey obsessed! Needless to say that park is now lead only walks!
Hannah is my prey driven dog and cant be trusted near squirrels or rabbit holes (coz she'd def get stuck!). At the moment I have a mouse problem in my house and she is constantly running around trying to find them. Rotten tart woke me up at 4am the other day barking at the scratching noises in the ceiling!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Adam once chased a squirrel out of a park (that was full of trees)


That squirrel was on a mission - bet he does it to all the dogs


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