# Very long First Stage - anxious new mum



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Hello there everyone, I hope you're having a great Saturday. Some of you might have seen me in the Introductions section, last year, and with recent updates. 

My Long Haired GSD is definitely in the first stage of labour - she started last night at 8pm. (its day 63 today) Panting, nesting, restless, looking very uncomfortable, not settling, intermittent sleeping, licking, frequent peeing, and she is also absolutely desperate to get outside to her 'nest' which she dug last week under a bush in the garden. 

This is her first litter, and I have read that first stages in maiden bitches can be as long as 36 or even 48 hours. So, I need to be patient! But is there anything I should be doing? I feel that the longer this goes on, the more there is something I should be doing! 

If anyone can advise, even just to put my mind at rest, that would be great. 
Thank you
Anxious Scarlettsmum Jane


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I would phone your Mentor (breeder with experience). If you haven`t arranged one - try to find one. Your vet might be able to recommend one.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I would phone your Mentor (breeder with experience). If you haven`t arranged one - try to find one. Your vet might be able to recommend one.


I do know a breeder who has been helping me out. But she's French and as I'm not fluent, sometimes communication is difficult. I usually communicate by email using google translate. I live in France. I posted on here as there is more likely to be a wealth of experience that I can easily tap into, and understand. After all, I think that is what this forum is for? But I will email my friend. thanks for the reminder.

Jane


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Did you notice if she'd lost her mucous plug at all?


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

I haven't seen any excess of mucus, apart from on Thursday there was a clear, slightly more than usual, discharge. However, she is a very long-haired girl and it wouldn't be easily seen, especially as she has been licking quite a lot. Do you think it would be really obvious?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm not the best person to ask, as I've only had the one litter which ended up as an emergency c-section, but with my bitch, yes it was obvious, she lost literally a plug of mucous and some water, and then contractions tried to start and it was on/off for 36 hours before I decided to take her to the vets, where we determined she needed a c-section.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Welll she literally hasn't been out of my sight for the last week, day and night, and I haven't seen anything like that. The Thursday discharge was clear. It coincided with an episode of heavy panting too. I'll keep my eyes open and check her myself regularly then. I thought perhaps she had cleaned herself up.

Jane


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It was like Tau had had a small wee on the carpet when she lost a bit of water after the plug. She had stringy clear discharge during her late pregnancy, but it was obvious (at least to me) when she lost her plug and the first bit of water.

Has your girl actually started any contractions yet?


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

How many pups is she due? Our girl was huge, labour started in the evening, by 10 am the next day she had to go to the vets as she wasn't contracting, had an oxytocin jab had had a pup in the car on the way home. Good luck, if your not sure / shes not progressing I'd phone your vet.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

She has xrayed with four pups. She's not huge, but not small either. She has milk already. No, no contractions at all yet. I'm hesitant to go to the vet too early, as I have read the first stage can go on for as much as 36 hours. but it is worrying. Perhaps I am getting too worried too soon. 

I have heard that oxytocin should only be given after one pup has been delivered? I've also heard/read that a lot of vets use it to start contractions. Who's right? 

I have to call the emergency vet anyway this afternoon to warn them that they might be needed for a pregnant dog. I'll see what they suggest. Is there any way for the vet to know for sure that she is in first stage? 

Jane


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

The oxytocin brings on/ increases heavier contractions, without it our girl couldn't of given birth herself she was given it as she was so big and wasn't contracting herself due to her uterus beng so stretched, it did the trick!
After 24 hours of 1st stage labour I'd be looking for 2nd stage to be starting, we took our girls temp and the drop was spot on.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Well I'm back. Breathless. No sooner had I said 'no contractions' than she started running frantically round the room, squatting and straining, then shivering, and I got her into the whelping box and contractions started. Good ones, and she was really groaning. Poor thing. 

After 30 mins of this and no pups I called the vet and he said bring her in for a check over. He took her temperature and said she isn't due yet (!) and did an ultrasound to check the position of the pups. All is well apparently, it's just that she isn't at the right moment and he expects it to happen tomorrow. I;m not quite sure what to make of that! She seems for all the world like she's now in 2nd stage labour. Since she got back from the vet she has settled down a bit, but is still panting heavily. Can she have strong contractions in the first stage??

I shoud have known nothing would be straightforward with this girl! At least (I think) my mind is eased a little. We are in for a long night though. My nerves are already shot!

Jane


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> The oxytocin brings on/ increases heavier contractions, without it our girl couldn't of given birth herself she was given it as she was so big and wasn't contracting herself due to her uterus beng so stretched, it did the trick!
> After 24 hours of 1st stage labour I'd be looking for 2nd stage to be starting, we took our girls temp and the drop was spot on.


Glad to hear it worked out well for you both.

It now looks as if she'll be having 36 hours of first stage labour. 

Jane


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank you!
Had another panic just now. She shot out a fairly large amount of clear/brownish thin liquid. Phoned the vet. (They'll be sick of me by the time this is finished). It was the cervical plug, (so it hadn't been lost yet after all) so another confirmation that things will happen in the next 24 hours. 

I have read everything I can find on whelping, from internet to books and magazines, and nowhere has it ever said that the mucus plug will be followed by a squirt of liquid! Apart from one of the replies above that is. So, you see how useful your experiences are! 

Will keep you posted.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dont know if this will be any help, I know some breeders dont bother with temperatures but my friend always does.

Be Alert for Signs of Labor A few days before the bitch is ready to give birth, she may stop eating and start building a "nest" where she plans to have her puppies  if introduced properly, this should be in the whelping box you have prepared for her. Shortly before whelping, the bitchs body temperature will drop to 99 degrees or lower (from a normal temperature of 100 to 102.5). Approximately 24 hours after her temperature drops, she can be expected to enter the first stage of labor when the cervix dilates and opens the birth canal for the passage of puppies. At this time, she will pant, strain, and appear restless. This stage of labor is followed by actual abdominal straining and production of the puppies and placentas.
You should have on hand your veterinarians phone number and the local emergency clinic.

A Guide To Breeding Your Dog 10 - Puppies are Born! Most bitches give birth easily without the need of human help. Each puppy emerges in its own placental membrane, or sac, which must be removed before the puppy can breathe. The mother usually takes care of this by tearing off (and sometimes eating) the membrane and then severs the umbilical cord. After delivery, she will lick each puppy to stimulate its breathing. You should keep track of how many placentas are delivered and ensure that the number matches the number of puppies because a retained placenta may cause problems.
You must take over if the bitch neglects to remove a sac or sever an umbilical cord. A puppy can remain inside the sac for only a few minutes before the oxygen supply is depleted. The sac membrane should be torn near the puppy's head and peeled backward until the puppy can be gently removed. Then you should remove mucus or fluids from the puppy's mouth and nose and gently rub the puppy with a towel to stimulate circulation. The umbilical cord can be tied with unwaxed dental floss and cut on the far side of the tie/knot about two inches from the abdomen. The cut end should be painted with iodine to prevent infection. At the time of birth, the bitch will be busy cleaning her puppies, warming them, and allowing them to suckle. It is very important for the puppies to suckle soon after emerging from the womb. Suckling lets them ingest colostrum, a milk-like substance containing maternal antibodies which is produced in the mammary glands just after birth. Colostrum helps the newborn puppies fight infection in their early days while their own immune systems mature.
To track nourishment of the puppies, it is advisable to identify and weigh puppies during the first 2 weeks.

A Guide To Breeding Your Dog 11 - Consult Your Veterinarian if Complications Arise If something goes wrong, don't hesitate to call your veterinarian for assistance. Signs of potential trouble include:
 Indications of extreme pain
 Strong contractions lasting for more than 45 minutes without delivery of a pup
 More than two hours elapsing between puppies with or without contractions
 Trembling, shivering, or collapse
 Passing a dark green or bloody fluid before the birth of the first puppy (after the first puppy, this is normal)
 No signs of labor by the 64th day after her last mating

For full link above came from with more information
http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeders/resources/guide_to_breeding_your_dog.pdf

Another good check list for common whelping problems you should be aware of.

The 6 most common problems during and post whelping (canine pregnancy)


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for your very comprehensive reply and taking the trouble to post it all. Its much appreciated. 

It's this bit I have an issue with now, after my experiences over the last 24 hours:
"Shortly before whelping, the bitchs body temperature will drop to 99 degrees or lower (from a normal temperature of 100 to 102.5). Approximately 24 hours after her temperature drops, she can be expected to enter the first stage of labor when the cervix dilates and opens the birth canal for the passage of puppies. At this time, she will pant, strain, and appear restless. This stage of labor is followed by actual abdominal straining and production of the puppies and placentas."

I now know that today, her temperature was still up and no drop had taken place, but she was nevertheless in the first stage of labour. 

In the above quote it says 'she will pant, strain.... ' and then it says 'actual abdominal straining'. What's the difference?? All very confusing for a first timer! I shall be learning a lot from all of this! I think I need to note the difference between 'straining' and 'contractions', as I obviously haven't seen the latter yet. That's probably what they mean by 'actual..' I am working it out now!

Phew. what a day. I shall be very glad when all this is over and I have warm, cuddly bundles happily suckling a contented mum. I shall have a big glass of wine. Or six.

I need an idiot's guide to whelping I think. 

J


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Scarlettsmum said:


> Thanks for your very comprehensive reply and taking the trouble to post it all. Its much appreciated.
> 
> It's this bit I have an issue with now, after my experiences over the last 24 hours:
> "Shortly before whelping, the bitchs body temperature will drop to 99 degrees or lower (from a normal temperature of 100 to 102.5). Approximately 24 hours after her temperature drops, she can be expected to enter the first stage of labor when the cervix dilates and opens the birth canal for the passage of puppies. At this time, she will pant, strain, and appear restless. This stage of labor is followed by actual abdominal straining and production of the puppies and placentas."
> ...


Apparently this is the deffinition of a contraction.

Observe your pregnant dog for visible contractions and signs of straining. Now entering the second stage of labor, her abdomen will tense and harden at regular intervals and it may look like she is trying to defecate. She should give birth to her first puppy one to two hours after the onset of "hard" labor.

How to Know When a Pregnant Dog Is Having Contractions | eHow.com


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

It might be 3.30am but since I'm still up I might as well update those who are interested. 
What a day. Four hours after being told by the vet that she wasn't ready or in labour, Scarlett produced a lovely litte girl puppy. Two hours later, another one. 

So the 'straining' of first stage was actually the contractions of second stage. Well, who cares, because the pups are wonderful, healthy and thriving. 

But then came the next bit. Two hours after the second puppy, she still hadn't had another contraction of any kind. She was very tired. Called the vet. Vet said c-section. Went to see vet. Very expensive consultation at 1.30 am on a Saturday!!! Vet didn't recommend oxytocin, but wants to do c-section tomorrow morning. On exam, the two remaining pups are still high up in the uterine horns. They are in no danger and can stay there, as if labour had't even begun, apparently. So came home again to 'wait and see'. Scarlett started again with contractions at 2am. Hopefully she will have delivered the remaining two by morning. It seems she does stages 1 and 2 at the same time, but likes to take her time about when she has the pups, and doesn't give a hoot whether its 2 3 or 4 hours between pups. 

I am enjoying a glass of rosé to celebrate my two lovely girls, and to toast the arrival of two more. 
Cheers!

Jane


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm out at work shortly, I hope the other two pups are here by the time I log back on later today, and all are safe and sound xx


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Congratulations on the first two. Sending well wishes Scarlett's way. The nursing from the first two is supposed to help with contractions for the next. This is definately not a textbook delivery but I've heard a breeder once exclaim a healthy puppy was born a full 24 hours after the rest of the litter, so it does happen.

CC


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

...just to add that it's not unusual for bitches to have a gap of a few hours between producing pups from one uterine horn and pups from the other one -( my guess is that this is what is happening here ).

Try not to panic I'm sure all will be well


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

All is indeed well. Another good weight healthy feeding puppy born at 5am this morning. The vet who wants to do a c-section called at 8am and is totally perplexed. I have told her I want to wait and see if Scarlett starts contractions again before going ahead with that. Its like she has stage 1 and stage 2 all at the same time, puppy by puppy! Bizarre. What a way to start breeding experience! 

So, only one to go! Oh and the third was also a girl, which is great as I want to keep a girl and now I will have more choice. 

Have now been awake since Friday morning. Ill be hallucinating soon. 

Jane


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Hope the rest of it goes well and your bitch doesn't need a caesarian.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Firedog said:


> Hope the rest of it goes well and your bitch doesn't need a caesarian.


Thank you. And thanks to everyone else for their good wishes too.

Jane


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

well done! hopefully you won't need the c section!


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Great news, our girl had 2 hour gaps between her pups, she started having them at 10am and finished at 11pm that night, between pups she popped out into the garden for a wee walk and a wee then back in her welping box for the next.
All the best being a new puppy mummy and congratulations to your girl


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

They all different one of mine had 5 in under 2 hours and no scratching down. Sat in front of me grunted and out popped a pup


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Any more news?


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

She is now having contractions for number four pup. 

The emergency vet doesn't have an ultrasound machine mad2so we can't check what the pups position is and if we could I wouldn't mind giving her some help, but so far she is fine, there is no dangerous loss of fluids and all the others have followed this same pattern. In between little rests and contractions, she is happy to charge around the garden and chase the chickens! So not that tired. Not that I let her of course! She's tried. She's still trying to dig huge holes but I'm letting her as it might help. She's had nutrigel, ice cream and goats yoghurt and a glucose drink. Plus she's eaten the last three placentas. 

If she can't manage this last one, then a cesar it will be, but I refuse to have one because the vet doesn't want to spend the night in clinic and its not convenient. The vets here are on another planet. 

I'll update when I get chance, or tomorrow, as Im fit to drop now and probably won't get much sleep again. 

Jane


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

Blimey! Thinking of you - good luck


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hope everything is okay and the fourth pup is with you by now.

I only had the one litter - eight Mal pups - and mum did have a gap of a couple of hours in between, my vet said to get her in the garden and moving about to speed things up, which it did and so fast that boy was born out there within minutes. I wouldn't have thought she needs a c section but if she's in a cage and not allowed to move around maybe it will end up that way.  Having had four children I know moving/walking is the best way to get the little blighters out - gravity always comes in handy.

Good luck with your new family and pics please when you have time.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

My girl went 6 hours between No. 3 and No. 4 pup, but we went straight to the vet, she was scanned (2 more inside) and given oxytocin, No. 4 pup arrived safely, scanned again, No. 5 pup had a very weak heart beat, vet was certain pup would be born dead - thankfully after another oxytocin No. 5 pup arrived alive and squealing. But absolutely no way would I have waited any longer, it normally means there is a problem, had we waited any longer then No. 5 pup would have died and we would of ended with a c-section.

Hope you are busy with your 4 babies and no c-section was needed.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad so far so good and Mum and babies doing well.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Hope pup no4 arrived safely and mum is doing well.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

SharonM said:


> My girl went 6 hours between No. 3 and No. 4 pup, but we went straight to the vet, she was scanned (2 more inside) and given oxytocin, No. 4 pup arrived safely, scanned again, No. 5 pup had a very weak heart beat, vet was certain pup would be born dead - thankfully after another oxytocin No. 5 pup arrived alive and squealing. But absolutely no way would I have waited any longer, it normally means there is a problem, had we waited any longer then No. 5 pup would have died and we would of ended with a c-section.
> 
> Hope you are busy with your 4 babies and no c-section was needed.


This is the scenario which should have happened here. But the vet had no scanner and so couldn't give oxytocin. We saw her in the middle of the night and she sent us home. I had no choice but to use this vet as it's the weekend and there is a duty rota for vets in the region. I was prepared to spend the night at the clinic with all the pups in case two shots of oxy were needed, but when I suggested this at first, she wouldn't agree and I didn't know until later that it's because she doesn't have a scanner.

Since she'd had one pup with such a long interval I thought she may well have the other. I had to make a decision and I didn't want my girl to have a c section if at all possible. So I waited. But she did need one, and is now home, but the 4th puppy didn't make it. If the vet had had an utrasound she would have seen that the 4th pup was twisted back on itself, could never have been born, and we would have done an immediate caesarian.

Mum and the other three are doing really well. Mum has settled into it now, after initially being uninterested. Not surprising really.

I should have gone back to the vets after the third one was born, with hindsight. I made the decision to wait, which was the wrong one, and shall live with the consequences. But I don't think I've had the best help here. My own vet has a modern surgery, but others don't. I shall tell her that instead of the big flash car she should spend some money on equpment. She can then live with that.

I have the utmost respect for people who do this repeatedly because it's been such an emotional three days I'm not at all sure I want to repeat it.

Thank you to all those who have given advice, support and information. I hope you don't judge me too harshly.

Jj


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Bless, you can only do what you thinks right at the time  I don't think you got the best care or advice from your vet which is a great shame for you and what's happened. Make the most of the coming weeks, you will miss them dearly when they have gone


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im so sorry that the last pup didnt make it must have been heartbreaking for you. Somtimes you can only be lead by the so called professionals and especially if you have no prior experience to call on.

Very glad to hear though that Mum and pups are now doing very well. Please keep us update with how they are all doing.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

So sorry it went wrong at the end. Hope you have had some rest in preparation for the journey ahead. Sending hugs. :001_wub:


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

You can only do what you can do.Don't beat yourself up.Good luck for the successful rearing of the three pups.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Sorry it didn't go to plan, but as others have said you did your very best, and sought help all the way. There was nothing more you could have done. Big hugs to you. x


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

I hope these work. Some pics of the little beauties and mum.

I am overwhelmed by the kind messages today after I posted what has happened. My heart has been lifted. Thank you so so much. I'm going now to concentrate on the three new girls and enjoy every second. 
Jane


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh my, your girl is beautiful....you will want to keep them all


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Mum and Pups are beautiful, Mum also looks very calm and content too especially after all thats happened bless her.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

That's what my husband said when the first was born. He wants to keep them all.  I know I will too.

This is Scarlett at Turin in December for the mating, and Elfo, the father of the pups. He's World Dog Show champion 2011.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Oh something went wrong there.

Try again/ The last one was Elfo, dad to the pups.

Hopefully, here's Scarlett.


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## Kunakizz (Nov 25, 2012)

What a pretty girl & Dad is very handsome. I love the longcoats. Enjoy your pups.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Beautiful dogs all of them and your girl is a star after all she's been through and yet looks so contented, she must have a wonderful temperament. Hugs to brave mummy. xx
Please keep us updated as the babes grow and so sorry you lost one but not your fault at all - remember that. 

Run free at the bridge sweet baby in fields of gold forever. xx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry you lost pup number four, it is heart breaking and bitches seem to go into labour at the most awkward of times! But hopefully the three healthy pups will soon start growing and then the fun really starts, or do I mean lack of sleep, endless washing, cleaning and feeding 

If you've got a plastic tub you can use instead of cardboard, I'd would use that, they're much easier to clean out and reuse. I had one on standby with a hot water bottle and towels to put over the top, in case I needed to lift them out for *whatever* reason.


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## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank you Malmum. But you've gone and made me cry again 


Sleeping_Liion - yes, by the state of the cardboard box already, it would be better to get a plastic one. Good tip! Also, already it needs to be deeper, because one little monster girlie climbed almost out yesterday! amazing that they can be so mobile after just two days. 

Im off to the 'vet' this morning to have mum's dressing changed and the pups checked over. Having to warm up the car for half an hour first as it's all frozen out there. 

Funny that about washing - my washer hasn't stopped for two days now, nor the dryer, and I seem to be on my feet most of the time, but not exactly sure what it is that's taking up all the time


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sorry about that. 

I think the first couple of weeks are probably the most unsettled, sort of trying to find a routine and what with watching the pups like a hawk in case mum sits on them its just on going toil. I wasn't a member of a dog forum when I had my litter and in a way glad of it. I knew things could go wrong but until joining here didn't know just how often that actually happens, I would have been beside myself with worry and now count my blessings as to how lucky I actually was but goodness it was hard work and constant too. I would never want to do it again, even less so with noisy Malamutes - I'd go to sleep listening to the noisy little blighters and wake up listening to them too, exhausting it was. I bet your little ones are going to be so sweet and I'd have loved my litter to have been half the size it was, all lovely dogs now though but goodness never again!


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

Aw mum and pups look really wonderful. Enjoy!


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