# Ovcharka



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi everyone, i am looking for a uk or even european breeder ovcharka's, would anyone here know of one? thanks.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

theres a few breeders in the UK and a couple of owners on here as far as i know - bumping the thread for you in the hope they see it.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks Nagini


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Is this a joke? speaking in what the current situation of whats in the news at the moment!! I've highlighted what I mean.......

The Caucasian Shepherd's original purpose was to protect livestock. The typical Caucasian Ovtcharka is assertive, strong-willed and courageous. Unless properly socialized and trained, *the Caucasian Shepherd may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies*. It is very brave, alert, strong and hardy. It does not accept people it does not know and it has a powerful urge to defend. Everything and everyone who belongs to the family, including children, cats, other dogs, etc., will be regarded by this dog as part of "its" family and will be respected and protected. *This dog should not be left alone with children, because if play becomes too rough, the Caucasian Ovtcharka my feel the need to protect your child, and may do it extensively.* It has no time for strangers, but it will greet family friends warmly. It can be rather dominant toward other dogs it does not know. Some German fanciers employ the dogs as foremost guardians and deterrents. *This is not a dog for everyone. It requires an owner who knows how to display strong leadership and who is willing to spend a lot of time socializing and training*


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

MyMillie said:


> Is this a joke? speaking in what the current situation of whats in the news at the moment!! I've highlighted what I mean.......
> 
> The Caucasian Shepherd's original purpose was to protect livestock. The typical Caucasian Ovtcharka is assertive, strong-willed and courageous. Unless properly socialized and trained, *the Caucasian Shepherd may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies*. It is very brave, alert, strong and hardy. It does not accept people it does not know and it has a powerful urge to defend. Everything and everyone who belongs to the family, including children, cats, other dogs, etc., will be regarded by this dog as part of "its" family and will be respected and protected. *This dog should not be left alone with children, because if play becomes too rough, the Caucasian Ovtcharka my feel the need to protect your child, and may do it extensively.* It has no time for strangers, but it will greet family friends warmly. It can be rather dominant toward other dogs it does not know. Some German fanciers employ the dogs as foremost guardians and deterrents. *This is not a dog for everyone. It requires an owner who knows how to display strong leadership and who is willing to spend a lot of time socializing and training*


Surely any dog breed can exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies if not socialised and trained?


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Surely any dog breed can exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies if not socialised and trained?


Yep! point taken, buy cant help but feel this post from a Eeerm a"newbie" and has been set up..... I dont believe in coincidences....
but even if this is a valified request from a newbie I would sooner encounter a small yappy unsocial and untrained dog than THIS..... it is humongous!! just google and you will see, and no one just would not stand a chance.....let alone a child.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> Is this a joke? speaking in what the current situation of whats in the news at the moment!! I've highlighted what I mean.......
> 
> The Caucasian Shepherd's original purpose was to protect livestock. The typical Caucasian Ovtcharka is assertive, strong-willed and courageous. Unless properly socialized and trained, *the Caucasian Shepherd may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies*. It is very brave, alert, strong and hardy. It does not accept people it does not know and it has a powerful urge to defend. Everything and everyone who belongs to the family, including children, cats, other dogs, etc., will be regarded by this dog as part of "its" family and will be respected and protected. *This dog should not be left alone with children, because if play becomes too rough, the Caucasian Ovtcharka my feel the need to protect your child, and may do it extensively.* It has no time for strangers, but it will greet family friends warmly. It can be rather dominant toward other dogs it does not know. Some German fanciers employ the dogs as foremost guardians and deterrents. *This is not a dog for everyone. It requires an owner who knows how to display strong leadership and who is willing to spend a lot of time socializing and training*


In light of whats happened, what breed were those dogs again if you want to be breedist? ut: God help you when you run into the Bully Kuttas being imported.

OP give me a PM and Ill add you on FB, I have God knows how many CAO breeders on mine who breed original lines, Kochee and CH level. I am hopng to add one to our family but it is many years away yet so I keep in touch with alot of them. they for the most part are happy to import and you can visit their kennels.

If you are looking for one in the UK please be careful, im not naming names but there is one churning them out I wouldnt touch with a barge pole!
What type of CAO are you looking for?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

My DILs mother, who now lives in Greece, has two dogs that are a sub species of this breed called the Nagazi and they originate from Georgia. The two she has now are "pets" and I use that term loosely. They live outdoors, and are basically guards and are not to be messed with. DILs grandparents who live in Georgia have a farm and kept Nagazi's with sheep which they protected from predators which is what they are bred for. They are enormous dogs and very strong and indapendent. Not for the feint hearted.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

MyMillie said:


> Yep! point taken, buy cant help but feel this post from a Eeerm a"newbie" and has been set up..... I dont believe in coincidences....
> but even if this is a valified request from a newbie I would sooner encounter a small yappy unsocial and untrained dog than THIS..... it is humongous!! just google and you will see, and no one just would not stand a chance.....let alone a child.


Fair enough but the points you highlighted could refer to alot of dog breeds re protectiveness and needing a firm hand / not welcoming strangers.

Everyone is different and likes different dogs.

And no dog should be left with a child (ideally) 

Let's just hope the OP does plenty of research if they are thinking of getting such a large powerful dog.

Have to admit its pretty majestic looking.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Siskin said:


> My DILs mother, who now lives in Greece, has two dogs that are a sub species of this breed called the Nagazi and they originate from Georgia. The two she has now are "pets" and I use that term loosely. They live outdoors, and are basically guards and are not to be messed with. DILs grandparents who live in Georgia have a farm and kept Nagazi's with sheep which they protected from predators which is what they are bred for. They are enormous dogs and very strong and indapendent. Not for the feint hearted.


No dog is for the faint hearted at the end of the day and Id question the lines and breeding of those dogs if they could not interact successfully with their human families.

CAOs are very big powerful and essentially primitive breeds which with a firm hand and some experience can become a fantastic member of the family.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Starlite said:


> In light of whats happened, what breed were those dogs again if you want to be breedist? ut: *God help you when you run into the Bully Kuttas being imported.*
> 
> OP give me a PM and Ill add you on FB, I have God knows how many CAO breeders on mine who breed original lines, Kochee and CH level. I am hopng to add one to our family but it is many years away yet so I keep in touch with alot of them. they for the most part are happy to import and you can visit their kennels.
> 
> ...


Whatever!!!!....... It just scares the "@%T out of me that "These" dogs fall into wrong hands.......and they always do!! thats all

"These" meaning "BIG" KNOWN aggressive dogs....


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> Whatever!!!!....... It just scares the "@%T out of me that "These" dogs fall into wrong hands.......and they always do!! thats all


Statistically speaking the most prolific biters are cocker spaniels and labradors, the dogs classed as "family dogs", I find that alot more worrying.
I also know the border collie 5 doors down has to be muzzled as he is human aggressive, should he also be PTS even tho he is managed effectively by his owner?

Any dog is dangerous if made to be so, targeting the breed has made zero difference in stopping attacks.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Starlite said:


> No dog is for the faint hearted at the end of the day and Id question the lines and breeding of those dogs if they could not interact successfully with their human families.
> 
> CAOs are very big powerful and essentially primitive breeds which with a firm hand and some experience can become a fantastic member of the family.


They are absolutely fine with their family. 
The dogs are originally from the farm in Georgia where they have had many generations of dogs over the generations of the family, not from some breeder somewhere. They were bred to do a job not to be pets.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Siskin said:


> They are absolutely fine with their family.
> The dogs are originally from the farm in Georgia where they have had many generations of dogs over the generations of the family, not from some breeder somewhere. They were bred to do a job not to be pets.


These dogs specifically or do you mean CAOs in general? As years of research and meeting/dissussing with breeders have shown these dogs are immensly loyal and loving to THEIR humans. There are very few breeds left in the world who are only tools and not interactive with humans, I dont consider CAOs one of them. The Bullys spring to mind actually,


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

i no one of these dogs. she is a stunning thing great with dogs but cn be a bit of with females that are the same size (altho she doesnt meet many her size) plys with my two, very well trained and lives indoors with her family altho i will ad she spends most of the day and some warm nights in the garden (they have a massive garden) loves there 6yr old. 

altho i thought she was an akita cross when i met her as a young pup


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Starlite said:


> These dogs specifically or do you mean CAOs in general? As years of research and meeting/dissussing with breeders have shown these dogs are immensly loyal and loving to THEIR humans. There are very few breeds left in the world who are only tools and not interactive with humans, I dont consider CAOs one of them. The Bullys spring to mind actually, Im sure everyone has seen the pic of number 36 muzzled and held at arms length on 2 different ropes in prep for his "fight".


I am referring to my DILs family dogs.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Starlite said:


> Statistically speaking the most prolific biters are cocker spaniels and labradors, the dogs classed as "family dogs", I find that alot more worrying.
> 
> Any dog is dangerous if made to be so, targeting the breed has made zero difference in stopping attacks.


OMG!!....here we go again.....YAWN!!!!!! ....just read about 20 pages on another thread about this sort of Sh!T...... had a few Cocker Spaniels in my lifetime.....pleased to say all very well behaved and loving.... but thats how "I" bought them up!!.....just let these "not my words" may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies, dogs be well known and it will be a free for all.....and god help us


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Siskin said:


> I am referring to my DILs family dogs.


oh right sorry, im generalising


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> OMG!!....here we go again.....YAWN!!!!!! ....just read about 20 pages on another thread about this sort of Sh!T...... had a few Cocker Spaniels in my lifetime.....pleased to say all very well behaved and loving.... but thats how "I" bought them up!!.....just let these "not my words" may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies, dogs be well known and it will be a free for all.....and god help us


I feel sorry for people like you living in those wee bubbles, must be a shock when they burst.
A free for all how, do you know something the rest of sociiety doesnt?


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Siskin said:


> They are absolutely fine with their family.
> The dogs are originally from the farm in Georgia where they have had many generations of dogs over the generations of the family, not from some breeder somewhere. *They were bred to do a job not to be pets.*


There you go then!!....if the OP is kosha hope they are interested in one for working and not put in a concrete jungle amongst children!! ....thats all


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> There you go then!!....if the OP is kosha hope they are interested in one for working and not put in a concrete jungle amongst children!! ....thats all


Yes ONE person has a differing opinion on their DILs dogs specifically, lets jump on that 
You have what experience with these bred types again? Or do you just rely on the Daily Mail?


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Starlite said:


> I feel sorry for people like you living in those wee bubbles, must be a shock when they burst.
> A free for all how, do you know something the rest of sociiety doesnt?


Please dont feel sorry for me ....at least ALL my children have survived many many years of owning dogs and knowing what they can be capable of.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Starlite said:


> Yes ONE person has a differing opinion on their DILs dogs specifically, lets jump on that
> You have what experience with these bred types again? Or do you just rely on the Daily Mail?


Havent read a newspaper years thank you!! I at least know they are full of rubbish!!.....a bit like a lot of threads on here lately


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> Please dont feel sorry for me ....at least ALL my children have survived many many years of owning dogs and knowing what they can be capable of.


I have a primitive breed. A 105lb Alaskan Malamute who has grown alongside my now 22mth old son, shock horror he is still alive! My child knows to respect the dog is is continuing his learning, I still fail to see what that has to do with actually having experience with primitive breeds rather than bullshit assumptions


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Starlite said:


> *I have a primitive breed. A 105lb Alaskan Malamute who has grown alongside my now 22mth old son*, shock horror he is still alive! My child knows to respect the dog is is continuing his learning, I still fail to see what that has to do with actually having experience with primitive breeds rather than bullshit assumptions


In my "Bullshit" assumptions, does owning a "highlighted" breed make you feel superior? cos if so, and you THINK a 22 month old child has learnt to respect a dog and its ways.....its I that feels scared for YOU!!....and your little child!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> In my "Bullshit" assumptions, does owning a "highlighted" breed make you feel superior? cos if so, and you THINK a 22 month old child has learnt to respect a dog and its ways.....its I that feels scared for YOU!!....and your little child!!!


Oh I remember now your the lady who ranted that all bull breeds and big "aggressive" should be banned on the first thread a few days ago and the thread was removed, pretty much on the lines of Wobble but much more offensive about the breeds and the people that owned them!!


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Oh I remember now your the lady who ranted that all bull breeds should be banned on the first thread a few days ago and the thread was removed, pretty much on the link lines of Wobble but much more offensive about the breeds and the people that owned them!!


YEP! asked for it to be removed...... YAWN YAWN YAWN, I was so SICK of hearing ones such as yourself DEFENDING certain breeds on that thread that was supposed to be about the poor girls death!!!

.....BUT, do you know something else....weebles "wobble" but they always bounce back!!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> YEP! asked for it to be removed...... YAWN YAWN YAWN, I was so SICK of hearing ones such as yourself DEFENDING certain breeds on that thread that was supposed to be about the poor girls death!!!
> 
> .....BUT, do you know something else....weebles "wobble" but they always bounce back!!!!


People such as myself? If you want to be listened to and taken seriously then please stop acting like a child! Any reason you feel the need to be so aggressive? As I said at the thread at the time that child's death will haunt me, and my heart breaks for the family. I don't believe I've defended any one breed, or even certain breeds, but I don't support BSL huge difference


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

YouTube


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Starlite said:


> I have a primitive breed. A 105lb Alaskan Malamute who has grown alongside my now 22mth old son, shock horror he is still alive! My child knows to respect the dog is is continuing his learning, I still fail to see what that has to do with actually having experience with primitive breeds rather than bullshit assumptions


A Mal has a completely different temperament to a Caucasian Shepherd dog. I would strongly advise anyone against getting one unless they have acres of land or live somewhere like Zaros does with his two.

Two of my Grandchildren's dad wants one so I read up on them and they sound like wonderful dogs to live in a remote rural farming location but I don't think they are suited to modern living at all.

Yes they are great with their own family totally devoted in fact. But they have the size, capacity and temperament to seriously damage or even kill someone they consider a threat.

If there was one in my neighbourhood I would be very very afraid.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Meezey said:


> People such as myself? If you want to be listened to and taken seriously then please stop acting like a child! Any reason you feel the need to be so aggressive? As I said at the thread at the time that child's death will haunt me, and my heart breaks for the family. I don't believe I've defended any one breed, or even certain breeds, but I don't support BSL huge difference


Point taken.... I am probably guilty of mistaking you with certain ones on there... sorry if you weren't one of them!
but if I get seriously upset about hearing a child has been killed and then hearing certain ones "defending" certain types of dogs that "a lot of unsavory characters" see as status dogs it sickens me......


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

metaldog said:


> A Mal has a completely different temperament to a Caucasian Shepherd dog. I would strongly advise anyone against getting one unless they have acres of land or live somewhere like Zaros does with his two.
> 
> Two of my Grandchildren's dad wants one so I read up on them and they sound like wonderful dogs to live in a remote rural farming location but I don't think they are suited to modern living at all.
> 
> ...


OMG!! at last I'm hearing sensible words!!!...... if ALL those wants these super dooper breeds PLEASE make sure you all live out in the sticks!!! and keep rest of humanity safe!!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> Havent read a newspaper years thank you!! I at least know they are full of rubbish!!.....a bit like a lot of threads on here lately


yep , pretty much full of what you post about , rubbish!!!
YAWN , YAWN , YAWN , YAWN , YAWN , YAWN , YAWN , YAWN!!!!!!!!!



MyMillie said:


> YEP! asked for it to be removed...... YAWN YAWN YAWN, I was so SICK of hearing ones such as yourself DEFENDING certain breeds on that thread that was supposed to be about the poor girls death!!!
> 
> .....BUT, do you know something else....weebles "wobble" but they always bounce back!!!!


i'm SO sick of uneducated idiots jumping on the bandwagon badmouthing breeds , it's NOT the breeds at fault , it's the OWNERS!!!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> Point taken.... I am probably guilty of mistaking you with certain ones on there... sorry if you weren't one of them!
> but if I get seriously upset about hearing a child has been killed and then hearing certain ones "defending" certain types of dogs that "a lot of unsavory characters" see as status dogs it sickens me......


Nope I will defend all breeds, BUT I am vehemently opposed to BSL, and I will try to get people to see the true picture, I won't on the other hand tolerate ignorance and all breeds and owners being judged by those who don't research and even try to understand dogs!!!

I don't think the Ovcharka is a breed for everyone, and also think if someone really wants one, then they should be pointed to a reputable breeder who will decide if the dog is right for them and guide them, rather than than them going to a byb, and if they do ignore the reputable breeders advise and go to a byb well again it proves the point PEOPLE are the problem.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Many years ago i was walking along the pavement on my way to play tennis. I walked past a small, white fluffy dog. It was on an extendible lead. It jumped and bit my hand. I felt the little b*gger's teeth hit bone and grate along the bones. I was NOT amused but it didn't do much damage.

Had a 90kg Ovcharka bitten my hand the outcome would have been somewhat different. 

I might add that it was my right hand that was bitten and I earn my living (and three other peoples' livings) with my hands.

The fluffy was owned by an idiot who apologised and explained that "Fluffy" was SO naughty. Well, that's all right then.

I hope "Idiot" never gets a large dog. It's not that they are likely to be any nastier than "Fluffy" just that the outcome is likely to be a hell of a lot worse for the victims. 

The thought of an ovcharka fluffy is a bad one.


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## vet-2-b (Sep 25, 2008)

MyMillie said:


> OMG!!....here we go again.....YAWN!!!!!! ....just read about 20 pages on another thread about this sort of Sh!T...... *had a few Cocker Spaniels in my lifetime.....pleased to say all very well behaved and loving.... but thats how "I" bought them up!!.*....just let these "not my words" may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies, dogs be well known and it will be a free for all.....and god help us


So what your saying is because you brought them up correctly and set boundaries that they were well behaved... so surely this supports deed not breed as statistically cocker spaniels bite the most people so if it was the breed you wouldn't be able to stop them biting?

But I do agree that a breed like this should not be bought Willy nilly (well no dog should but special care should be taken) and it does help if you live rural with land and a breed like this does need care to make sure it's not aggressive then again I've never met one it's only from what I've read so if I believed everything I read I certainly wouldn't be going down to my local rescue where their are many staffies,am bulldog and crosses


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

vet-2-b said:


> So what your saying is because you brought them up correctly and set boundaries that they were well behaved... so surely this supports deed not breed as statistically cocker spaniels bite the most people so if it was the breed you wouldn't be able to stop them biting?
> 
> *But I do agree that a breed like this should not be bought Willy nilly (well no dog should but special care should be taken)* and it does help if you live rural with land and a breed like this does need care to make sure it's not aggressive then again I've never met one it's only from what I've read so if I believed everything I read I certainly wouldn't be going down to my local rescue where their are many staffies,am bulldog and crosses


My point exactly....but will these dogs be bought by idiots YEP! you aint ever going to stop idiots.....hence all my anti posts, it's bad enough meeting all the little DA/HA ones let alone something like that....

So its not the breeds fault then, ok ok I will take it on board then!.... BUT you will *never ever* stop idiots buying them and THATS why they shouldnt be available....full stop


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Well for all we know this OP could have been well meaning and living in the middle of nowhere with acres and acres of land but due to the friendly nature of this thread doubt will bother asking for advice again.

Of course there are dogs which are more or less suited to different environments and different skills of handler and if it turned out they lived in a a urban area people would give their opinion I'm sure.

Who are we to judge when we know nothing of the OP? and prol scared them out of bothering to share any more info. 

This thread makes quite sad reading. 

All I will say is the world would be a very boring place if we all liked the same things.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

[QUOTE i'm SO sick of uneducated idiots jumping on the bandwagon badmouthing breeds , it's NOT the breeds at fault , it's the OWNERS!!!!![/QUOTE]

YEP I know the "I'm sick of" feeling listening to all you holy than though ones spouting how us UNEDUCATED idiots speak out.... "bowing! to ALL you learned ones  ....even the ones who clearly have big dogs and start post on here saying how their dog DA and is at there wits end ....just hope I never bump into them on my walks


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Well for all we know this OP could have been well meaning and living in the middle of nowhere with acres and acres of land but due to the friendly nature of this thread doubt will bother asking for advice again.
> 
> Of course there are dogs which are more or less suited to different environments and different skills of handler and if it turned out they lived in a a urban area people would give their opinion I'm sure.
> 
> ...


Agree!...sadly its a shame that ALL dont think or strive to keep people and other dogs safe.....aint going to happen is till the loaded cannon is maybe replaced by a loaded potato gun!!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

MyMillie said:


> [QUOTE i'm SO sick of uneducated idiots jumping on the bandwagon badmouthing breeds , it's NOT the breeds at fault , it's the OWNERS!!!!!


YEP I know the "I'm sick of" feeling listening to all you holy than though ones spouting how us UNEDUCATED idiots speak out.... "bowing! to ALL you learned ones  ....even the ones who clearly have big dogs and start post on here saying how their dog DA and is at there wits end ....just hope I never bump into them on my walks[/QUOTE]

Wow - I would of thought bumping into your average PF poster who has taken the time effort to work with their dogs would be the least of your worries.

Good on them for 1- admitting they need help and 2 - sharing there experience and asking others for support.

Would be alto easier to not walk said dog and be in denial of any issues I'm sure.

I'm sorry My Millie I normally really enjoy your posts but that comment is very harsh.

You never know you could have a dog who has Dog aggression one day and could be the one starting a thread asking for help.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

*Wow - I would of thought bumping into your average PF poster who has taken the time effort to work with their dogs would be the least of your worries. 

Good on them for 1- admitting they need help and 2 - sharing there experience and asking others for support. *

Ok, so that makes it ok then? so after it "may" have ripped my dog apart I will just say "it don't matter, at least she asked for help on PF" 

Would be alto easier to not walk said dog and be in denial of any issues I'm sure.

*I'm sorry My Millie I normally really enjoy your posts but that comment is very harsh.*

I'm sorry too, ALL my reactions are purely said in grief over hearing a child has been killed............ 

You never know you could have a dog who has Dog aggression one day and could be the one starting a thread asking for help.[/QUOTE]


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MyMillie said:


> Whatever!!!!....... It just scares the "@%T out of me that "These" dogs fall into wrong hands.......and they always do!! thats all
> 
> "These" meaning "BIG" KNOWN aggressive dogs....


A couple of years ago a new member posted here wanting help because her Estrela Mountain Dog was being.........well, a livestock guardian. There's a surprise. Apparently whenever her kids had friends round, they had to remove the dog to her mother's house because he would not let them play and was quite dangerous.

An Estrela is an Ovcharka, an offshoot of the same breed. Zaros has Sarplaninacs, who are also ovcharkas, but he lives where there is lots of room for the dogs and has gone out of his way to socialise them properly. The idea that anyone can buy one, and think they can treat them like any other dog is scary, I agree.

Other dogs may have the highest incidence of biting, but a livestock guardian will not just bite, it will kill if it thinks it is protecting its flock. Anyway, how can you have statistics when not many people own a livestock guardian - of course popular dogs are going to have a higher incidence of biting.

It is bad enough that people can buy huskies for their looks without even knowing they are sled dogs in a lot of cases, and then wonder why they get stir crazy. The idea that anyone can buy one of these giants without a clue that their original purpose was to fend off wolves, cheetahs and even tigers, is really scary.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

mymillie said:


> yep i know the "i'm sick of" feeling listening to all you holy than though ones spouting how us uneducated idiots speak out.... "bowing! To all you learned ones  ....even the ones who clearly have big dogs and start post on here saying how their dog da and is at there wits end ....just hope i never bump into them on my walks


yawn!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> I'm sorry too, ALL my reactions are purely said in grief over hearing a child has been killed............


do you not think others feel exactly the same , they just don't share your breed bashing opinions.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> My point exactly....but will these dogs be bought by idiots YEP! you aint ever going to stop idiots.....hence all my anti posts, it's bad enough meeting all the little DA/HA ones let alone something like that....
> 
> So its not the breeds fault then, ok ok I will take it on board then!.... *BUT you will never ever stop idiots buying them and THATS why they shouldnt be available....*full stop


Well, the good thing about a dog like an Ovcharka is that when idiots end up with them, they tend to create a self-correcting problem, more so than more forgiving breeds like, say, an APBT. Idiots and Ovcharkas don't tend to last very long together in some form or another. So I wouldn't worry too much there


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

MyMillie said:


> *Wow - I would of thought bumping into your average PF poster who has taken the time effort to work with their dogs would be the least of your worries.
> 
> Good on them for 1- admitting they need help and 2 - sharing there experience and asking others for support. *
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I think youl find I was one of those disgusted at people protective breed comments on a certain thread and also the 'poor dogs' comments. Breed is irrelevant that kind of behaviour is not acceptable in society point blank.

It is disgusting a child lost their life - but I didn't realise what that had to do with this thread? Maybe I am missing something here. 

All this thread has done is made the OP most likely not want to bother asking for advice.

And no just because a owner makes a thread asking for advice on DA is doesn't make it ok that it "may" rip your dog apart  but to make comments suggesting that those who start those threads have a holier than though attitude is generalising and disheartening to those who may find PF a supportive environment to ask for help.

Maybe we should all have fluffy dogs under 10kg then the world would be a safer place hey


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> A couple of years ago a new member posted here wanting help because her Estrela Mountain Dog was being.........well, a livestock guardian. There's a surprise. Apparently whenever her kids had friends round, they had to remove the dog to her mother's house because he would not let them play and was quite dangerous.
> 
> An Estrela is an Ovcharka, an offshoot of the same breed. Zaros has Sarplaninacs, who are also ovcharkas, but he lives where there is lots of room for the dogs and has gone out of his way to socialise them properly. The idea that anyone can buy one, and think they can treat them like any other dog is scary, I agree.
> 
> ...


Totally agree!.....
I am listening now too about "Deed not Breed" issues and all my posts have been very emotional lately due to hearing about Jade, and all the other deaths, it affected me more than I realised knowing powerful dogs are in wrong hands scares me so much, and what scares me the most is that it will never stop happening, cos the dogs will always be bred and totally moronic people will be able to buy them ....( not talking about the OP of this thread, I dont know them) I'm talking about the many I see in my day to day life who have "status" dogs, my own sister has one of the nastiest english bull dog, it makes me shudder, but thank god she lives in the sticks in France, so no problem to anyone!


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

I think youl find I was one of those disgusted at people protective breed comments on a certain thread and also the 'poor dogs' comments. Breed is irrelevant that kind of behaviour is not acceptable in society point blank.

It is disgusting a child lost their life - but I didn't realise what that had to do with this thread? Maybe I am missing something here. 

All this thread has done is made the OP most likely not want to bother asking for advice.

And no just because a owner makes a thread asking for advice on DA is doesn't make it ok that it "may" rip your dog apart  but to make comments suggesting that those who start those threads have a holier than though attitude is generalising and disheartening to those who may find PF a supportive environment to ask for help.

Maybe we should all have fluffy dogs under 10kg then the world would be a safer place hey [/QUOTE]

Never mind ....Sorry OP, you wont hear from me again


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I think youl find I was one of those disgusted at people protective breed comments on a certain thread and also the 'poor dogs' comments. Breed is irrelevant that kind of behaviour is not acceptable in society point blank.
> 
> It is disgusting a child lost their life - but I didn't realise what that had to do with this thread? Maybe I am missing something here.
> 
> ...


i gather the OP has already done the required research on said breed , they'd have to have done to be asking about breeders of these dogs , they aren't a breed you just bring home without knowing anything about them. saddened someones thread has been trashed really when all they asked for was information on breeders.

as i said yesterday maybe a blanket ban on ALL dogs should happen because there *isn't* a breed out there that hasn't killed someone , all those people were someone elses children too.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Starlite said:


> Statistically speaking the most prolific biters are cocker spaniels and labradors, the dogs classed as "family dogs", I find that alot more worrying.
> I also know the border collie 5 doors down has to be muzzled as he is human aggressive, should he also be PTS even tho he is managed effectively by his owner?
> 
> Any dog is dangerous if made to be so, targeting the breed has made zero difference in stopping attacks.


Debates on how 'dangerous' they are aside I personally see no place at all for this breed in the UK - same as sars really - it's great that Zaros can have them in Finland where there is plenty of land for them to explore and behave how they naturally would but unless I lived in the remote Hebrides I honestly don't think an Ovcharka or Sarplaninac etc should be in the UK AT ALL - and I'm fairly sure I've seen owners of said breeds state the same - it would just get into the wrong hands in this country and the whole breed would be villified as a result


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The flock guardians are brilliant dogs in the right hands and who's to say the op isn't the right owner for them . Any breed can be dangerous and these are huge powerful dogs with a strong guard instinct, not being breedist just realistic, they need a lot of training and socialisation. But to say they should be banned is just ridiculous like any breed they need certain owners.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Debates on how 'dangerous' they are aside I personally see no place at all for this breed in the UK - same as sars really - it's great that Zaros can have them in Finland where there is plenty of land for them to explore and behave how they naturally would but unless I lived in the remote Hebrides I honestly don't think an Ovcharka or Sarplaninac etc should be in the UK AT ALL - and I'm fairly sure I've seen owners of said breeds state the same - it would just get into the wrong hands in this country and the whole breed would be villified as a result


could be argued there's no place for other breeds here too. yet they seem to be in plenty full supply.
i have no problem with ovcharka's being here.
could be argued theres no place for ambulls here , presa's , corsi because in reality just like the ovcharka there's nothing here for them to do.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> could be argued there's no place for other breeds here too. yet they seem to be in plenty full supply.
> i have no problem with ovcharka's being here.
> could be argued theres no place for ambulls here , presa's , corsi because in reality just like the ovcharka there's nothing here for them to do.


Except Am Bulls [I'm not commenting on presas and corsis as they're a lot less populated than AmBulls] have been very friendly family dogs for generations with the multi-purpose of being pets as well as workers whereas Ovcharka's like many livestock guardians can be far more deadly and a lot less friendly in general to strangers - I wouldn't mind the idea of a corso or presa in the neighbourhood but personally I think it would be cruel to have a giant guardian like the Ovcharka or Sar in an English city - If someone with flocks of sheep who lived well out in the sticks had one I think that would be suitable but otherwise not suitable at all - I'm personally of the belief that some dogs only belong in certain environments and keeping them otherwise is human selfishness

ETA I'm not bashing the breeds - I think they are amazing creatures - but I *personally* think it's cruel to keep them in certain places or under certain circumstances is all - Just as keeping dogs in completely the wrong climate could be classed as selfish I feel the same for environment - which is also may I add why I couldn't have certain breeds in my current housing situation


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> The flock guardians are brilliant dogs in the right hands and who's to say the op isn't the right owner for them . Any breed can be dangerous and these are huge powerful dogs with a strong guard instinct, not being breedist just realistic, they need a lot of training and socialisation. But to say they should be banned is just ridiculous like any breed they need certain owners.


Did someone say they should be banned? I think there are a lot of breeds which should only be owned by people with the right knowledge and the right environment, but nothing will be done about it. Thankfully, livestock guardians have not yet caught on; God forbid they ever do.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Except Am Bulls [I'm not commenting on presas and corsis as they're a lot less populated than AmBulls] have been very friendly family dogs for generations with the multi-purpose of being pets as well as workers whereas Ovcharka's like many livestock guardians can be far more deadly and a lot less friendly in general to strangers - I wouldn't mind the idea of a corso or presa in the neighbourhood but personally I think it would be cruel to have a giant guardian like the Ovcharka or Sar in an English city - If someone with flocks of sheep who lived well out in the sticks had one I think that would be suitable but otherwise not suitable at all - I'm personally of the belief that some dogs only belong in certain environments and keeping them otherwise is human selfishness
> 
> ETA I'm not bashing the breeds - I think they are amazing creatures - but I *personally* think it's cruel to keep them in certain places or under certain circumstances is all


there's no arguing they were all bred for pretty much the same thing in mind , so can't really see the logic you've applied there


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Whilst I am a fervent advocate of "deed not breed" I think it's foolish to lend no weight at all to breed traits. After all, we're quick enough on this forum to point out when people want to get a dog breed that is unsuitable for them for reasons such as exercise requirements and the like.

I don't believe that breed traits guarantee certain behaviours at all. There's no denying that the vast majority of greyhounds are hard wired to chase small furries and yet even ex-racers (and not necessarily the wash outs who wouldn't chase) can be taught to live with cats and other smaller animals. It's all about understanding the breed traits and working the prevent the undesirable behaviours that may result.

The question here is how likely is it that someone living in the UK can adequately provide for the needs of a highly specialist breed. There will be people who can, who understand the breed and the steps they, as owners, must take in order to channel breed traits which have the potential to result in negative behaviours. However, I wouldn't think owners like that would be common and can completely understand the nervousness of some posters when someone pops up wanting one of these highly specialised breeds. 

Due to recent tragic events emotions on all sides of the "dangerous dogs" argument are running very high and I think this is adding a level of tension to this debate which wouldn't ordinarily be present. It's a tough one as it's difficult to talk about managing potentially negative breed traits without feeling like we're giving ammunition to people who believe that certain breeds are inherently dangerous regardless of their upbringing and management.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Did someone say they should be banned? I think there are a lot of breeds which should only be owned by people with the right knowledge and the right environment, but nothing will be done about it. Thankfully, livestock guardians have not yet caught on; God forbid they ever do.


Great Pyr's are more on the mild side of guardians [in comparison with say Sars] but I'm glad nobody in the UK has thought of buying them en masse because I predict the fallout would be quite severe

I think where some see people somehow breed bashing the other side of the coin is that actually people want these breeds in the right hands and want to protect them rather than experiment with whether people can handle them - I think we can agree that the UK dog culture is not such that we should trust many with such breeds


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> there's no arguing they were all bred for pretty much the same thing in mind , so can't really see the logic you've applied there


There's a difference - how many working Am Bulls do you know - and how many Ovcharkas do you know that are simply pets with no other purpose  Am Bulls have been companions with no 'job' for decades - Ovcharkas have not gone down that road and I think it's a good thing we still have some breeds that are there to do their job - why would you want to change that


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Whilst I am a fervent advocate of "deed not breed" I think it's foolish to lend no weight at all to breed traits. After all, we're quick enough on this forum to point out when people want to get a dog breed that is unsuitable for them for reasons such as exercise requirements and the like.
> 
> I don't believe that breed traits guarantee certain behaviours at all. There's no denying that the vast majority of greyhounds are hard wired to chase small furries and yet even ex-racers (and not necessarily the wash outs who wouldn't chase) can be taught to live with cats and other smaller animals. It's all about understanding the breed traits and working the prevent the undesirable behaviours that may result.
> 
> ...


Disagree on both those points really - the first one because if you do a search you will see these same points highlighted anytime someone has asked about this or similar breeds 

Secondly I don't believe any breed is 'inherently dangerous' I believe it would be more fitting to say 'inherently unsuitable for normal situations' - The overwhelming majority of people within the UK are not imo suitable for this breed - I don't think it's unfair to say so either - indeed I think it's unfair to pretend that certain breeds can fit in as easily as others when they are so specialist


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Secondly I don't believe any breed is 'inherently dangerous' I believe it would be more fitting to say 'inherently unsuitable for normal situations' - The overwhelming majority of people within the UK are not imo suitable for this breed - I don't think it's unfair to say so either - indeed I think it's unfair to pretend that certain breeds can fit in as easily as others when they are so specialist


If you read my post again you'll see that's exactly the point I was making.

The people I was referring to are those who will seize on any excuse to get more and more dogs put on the banned list, not many of whom frequent this forum.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Great Pyr's are more on the mild side of guardians [in comparison with say Sars] but I'm glad nobody in the UK has thought of buying them en masse because I predict the fallout would be quite severe
> 
> I think where some see people somehow breed bashing the other side of the coin is that actually people want these breeds in the right hands and want to protect them rather than experiment with whether people can handle them - I think we can agree that the UK dog culture is not such that we should trust many with such breeds


I believe it is because pyreneans have been domesticated over a much longer period, are well known to the pet market, unlike the other guardians. But I have known of a couple of Pyreneans who have had to be given up when they matured because of their unpredictability and both owned by experienced dog owners.

If you really want a giant, fluffy, impressive dog, get a newfoundland or a leonberger. They will welcome all your visitors, burglars included probably, but you won't have to worry about them killing your kids' friends or needing lots of farmland and a flock to guard.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

For anyone interested in the discussions already had:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/229856-caucasian-lack-prey-drive-makes-safer.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/206893-caucasian-shepherd-dog.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/74478-re-sarplaninac-other-giant-breeds.html


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> There's a difference - how many working Am Bulls do you know - and how many Ovcharkas do you know that are simply pets with no other purpose  Am Bulls have been companions with no 'job' for decades - Ovcharkas have not gone down that road and I think it's a good thing we still have some breeds that are there to do their job - why would you want to change that


i wouldn't want to change that. american bulldogs are still worked , just not over here. there's a few people out there that keep ovcharka as pets , theres a couple on here that do so , safely
there are different strains of ambull that were bred purely to work , yet they are still here , one strain was famously mixed with american pit bull terrier lines , so who are we to say they belong here , when others don't


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> If you read my post again you'll see that's exactly the point I was making.
> 
> The people I was referring to are those who will seize on any excuse to get more and more dogs put on the banned list, not many of whom frequent this forum.


Sorry - I must have misunderstood you


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> i wouldn't want to change that. american bulldogs are still worked , just not over here. there's a few people out there that keep ovcharka as pets , theres a couple on here that do so , safely
> there are different strains of ambull that were bred purely to work , yet they are still here , one strain was famously mixed with american pit bull terrier lines , so who are we to say they belong here , when others don't


Okay put it this way - do you honestly want to see Ovcharkas imported into the UK - do you think that's a genuinely good idea considering our culture of dog owners


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Debates on how 'dangerous' they are aside I personally see no place at all for this breed in the UK - same as sars really - it's great that Zaros can have them in Finland where there is plenty of land for them to explore and behave how they naturally would but unless I lived in the remote Hebrides I honestly don't think an Ovcharka or Sarplaninac etc should be in the UK AT ALL - and I'm fairly sure I've seen owners of said breeds state the same - it would just get into the wrong hands in this country and the whole breed would be villified as a result


It's not quite that simple...
Yes, Ovcharkas are not an easy breed, not for the inexperienced or unprepared. They are sharp, serious dogs. I for one would not want to see one in the hands of some ignoramus who just wants an ego extension on a leash. Well, I would for sheer entertainment value, but no, not really.

However, that doesn't mean that someone with the right knowledge, and who works with the right breeder, couldn't be perfectly successful raising such a dog in an sub-urban, or semi-rural environment. They don't *have* to have a herd, they don't *have* to have tons of land.

Just as MANY breeds do well in knowledgeable homes even if they're not doing what they were originally bred for. How many of us know collies who do agility or flyball instead of herding for example? Tons of breeds make lovely pets even though they're not doing what they were bred for - in the right hands.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> It's not quite that simple...
> Yes, Ovcharkas are not an easy breed, not for the inexperienced or unprepared. They are sharp, serious dogs. I for one would not want to see one in the hands of some ignoramus who just wants an ego extension on a leash. Well, I would for sheer entertainment value, but no, not really.
> 
> However, that doesn't mean that someone with the right knowledge, and who works with the right breeder, couldn't be perfectly successful raising such a dog in an sub-urban, or semi-rural environment. They don't *have* to have a herd, they don't *have* to have tons of land.
> ...


And yet for some odd reason I can't see them just landing 'in the right hands' - forgive me being so cynical


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> In my "Bullshit" assumptions, does owning a "highlighted" breed make you feel superior? cos if so, and you THINK a 22 month old child has learnt to respect a dog and its ways.....its I that feels scared for YOU!!....and your little child!!!


had you read right youd see I said my son was continuing his learning, a 22mth old is capable of that.



metaldog said:


> A Mal has a completely different temperament to a Caucasian Shepherd dog. I would strongly advise anyone against getting one unless they have acres of land or live somewhere like Zaros does with his two.
> 
> Two of my Grandchildren's dad wants one so I read up on them and they sound like wonderful dogs to live in a remote rural farming location but I don't think they are suited to modern living at all.
> 
> ...


We have many breeds who have been here decades who are just as capable in size and attutide. These dogs can and are now living as members of the family throughout the world, inlcuding the UK.



Phoolf said:


> Debates on how 'dangerous' they are aside I personally see no place at all for this breed in the UK - same as sars really - it's great that Zaros can have them in Finland where there is plenty of land for them to explore and behave how they naturally would but unless I lived in the remote Hebrides I honestly don't think an Ovcharka or Sarplaninac etc should be in the UK AT ALL - and I'm fairly sure I've seen owners of said breeds state the same - it would just get into the wrong hands in this country and the whole breed would be villified as a result


There are dozens of breed which no really have no place, they are still kept and enjoyed immensely.

My breed has moved on slightly from the primitiveness but never the less is still classed as so. With effective management and dedication they make wonderful family pets, as Ive seen with every breed reall. Dogo Argentinos are banned here but known as nanny dogs elsewhere, attitudes and treatments vary massively and play a big part.
I dont have a CAO yet, its at least 5-10 years away. Why? Not because I dont trust one with my family but the simple fact is I dont have the time this type of breed DESERVES. Any dog can be a good dog, its what the owners do to manage and raise it.

Remember folks, when you outlaw these kind of dogs only the outlaws have them.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Okay put it this way - do you honestly want to see Ovcharkas imported into the UK - do you think that's a genuinely good idea considering our culture of dog owners


they already are here , i could go out and probably buy one tomorrow.
the small circle i have been told here is a good one , most (well very few) refusing to sell puppies to just ''anybody''
i got no problem with the dogs whatsoever.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Whilst I am a fervent advocate of "deed not breed" I think it's foolish to lend no weight at all to breed traits. After all, we're quick enough on this forum to point out when people want to get a dog breed that is unsuitable for them for reasons such as exercise requirements and the like.
> 
> I don't believe that breed traits guarantee certain behaviours at all. There's no denying that the vast majority of greyhounds are hard wired to chase small furries and yet even ex-racers (and not necessarily the wash outs who wouldn't chase) can be taught to live with cats and other smaller animals. It's all about understanding the breed traits and working the prevent the undesirable behaviours that may result.
> 
> ...


Totally agree, like I said I would rather have been able to talk to OP about their choice, as I said pointing them in the direction of a reputable breeder might also help dissuade them if they are not the right owner for the dog, the OP is looking for this breed hurling abuse at them isn't going to educate them or dissuade them, just means they disappear off here, and chance are they will still get the dog but now armed with less information and more than likely going to some byb who won't give a crap who has the breed and just cares about the money! People might not like certain dogs but making snide rude ill informed comments about them and their owners is not helpful, and neither is slagging people with DA dogs on here, start attacking those and you know what people start to feel uncomfortable about asking for advise, and guess what still have a DA dog out there just now one who may get worse as there's no support network offering advise!! So mymillie what do really hope to achieve? Same questions same breeds same problems just now people uncomfortable asking for advice because you want to rant at them? Great reasoning!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Nagini said:


> they already are here , i could go out and probably buy one tomorrow.
> the small circle i have been told here is a good one , most (well very few) refusing to sell puppies to just ''anybody''
> i got no problem with the dogs whatsoever.


as Nagini said, they are already established here. They have a breed club and an annual show, last count there were roughly 20-70 I believe.

I honestly see bully Kuttas as more of a threat, the people who are importing, selling and crossing them worries me immensely.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> And yet for some odd reason I can't see them just landing 'in the right hands' - forgive me being so cynical


Why not?

Do you have any first hand experience with the breed?

I hate to add another wrinkle in to the discussion, but it's kind of like why you'll see tough guy crank and yank trainers show off their toughness with dogs like the bull breeds and the working line dogs who have a reputation and *look* hard but are generally typical dogs in that they appease in the face of confrontation with a human. I've yet to see someone like CM do a demo with a CO or similar. There is a reason for that 

It generally takes a LOT to turn your typical bull breed in to a man biter. 
CO, on the other hand, don't suffer fools. They're not a breed you can push around or be stupid with and expect to keep all your appendages. So even if one does end up in the 'wrong' hands, it would be short lived and the trend wouldn't last that long.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Starlite said:


> I honestly see bully Kuttas as more of a threat, the people who are importing, selling and crossing them worries me immensely.


i agree. again it isn't the dogs though , it's the idiots importing them and crossing them , i dare say in the right home one could probably be an absolute dream to own but with the few in the UK having them and then describing them as ''manstoppers'' who on earth would you go to , to buy a well bred puppy? now that's worrying.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Nagini said:


> i agree. again it isn't the dogs though , it's the idiots importing them and crossing them , i dare say in the right home one could probably be an absolute dream to own but with the few in the UK having them and then describing them as ''manstoppers'' who on earth would you go to , to buy a well bred puppy? now that's worrying.


I agree, they are taking the most aggressive lines in Pakistan and the biggest crosses they can do. The poor things have no chance.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Whilst I am a fervent advocate of "deed not breed" I think it's foolish to lend no weight at all to breed traits. After all, we're quick enough on this forum to point out when people want to get a dog breed that is unsuitable for them for reasons such as exercise requirements and the like.
> 
> I don't believe that breed traits guarantee certain behaviours at all. There's no denying that the vast majority of greyhounds are hard wired to chase small furries and yet even ex-racers (and not necessarily the wash outs who wouldn't chase) can be taught to live with cats and other smaller animals. It's all about understanding the breed traits and working the prevent the undesirable behaviours that may result.
> 
> ...


Cracking post


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Why not?
> 
> Do you have any first hand experience with the breed?
> 
> ...


Sadly I think, in this country at least, then if that did happen the Ovcharka would be banned because our country is a shambles in regards to stuff like that.

But still shame on you all who has probably frightened the OP off. Goddamn we don't even know the situation and some are spouting out breedist crap. 
Yes, the Ovcharka could be considered a specialist breed, but we do not know the OP.

Good grief it makes me cross.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

LurcherOwner said:


> Sadly I think, in this country at least, then if that did happen the Ovcharka would be banned because our country is a shambles in regards to stuff like that.


That's really misguided IMHO. Especially in the case of banning breeds, which has been repeatedly shown to NOT work to keep the public safe.

And totally agree about scaring the OP off


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Okay put it this way - do you honestly want to see Ovcharkas imported into the UK - do you think that's a genuinely good idea considering our culture of dog owners


I certainly wouldnt, imagine one living in a flat with a chav, because thats how it would be, havnt we enough status symbol dogs, havnt enough breeds suffered because of these idiots.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I certainly wouldnt, imagine one living in a flat with a chav, because thats how it would be, havnt we enough status symbol dogs, havnt enough breeds suffered because of these idiots.


A teenage boy who once stopped me to ask about Ferdie, suggested that he could frighten lots of people with a dog like that. Can you imagine if he really did get his hands on one that was genuinely scary?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> A teenage boy who once stopped me to ask about Ferdie, suggested that he could frighten lots of people with a dog like that. Can you imagine if he really did get his hands on one that was genuinely scary?


On the other hand I suppose we could see ouesi's point in that they wouldn't last long - but by that point I'm guessing some very innocent people would have to be harmed before they gave up on these dogs - and even when people realised it was a bad idea there would still be some out there taking the risk [as Starlite says with the bad Bully Kutta's who have been imported and sold on to anyone with any agenda]


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

haeveymolly said:


> I certainly wouldnt, imagine one living in a flat with a chav, because thats how it would be, havnt we enough status symbol dogs, havnt enough breeds suffered because of these idiots.


LOL, no I really doubt that. An idiot owner, ignorant about the breed, living in a flat with a CO would end up in the emergency room and his dog seized. You wouldn't get hurt, the OWNER would.

That's the difference between these dogs and the other "status" dogs, an Ovcharka will happily teach an idiot owner a lesson, and bullies don't like being taught a lesson. So the trend won't last even if it starts to begin with.

People think pitbulls and staffies are used as status dogs because they're "hard" and mean, but they're not. They're status dogs because they're largely idiot-proof dogs. If people knew some of the outright abuse that is thrown at so many of these dogs with NO retaliation against the abuser... Yeah, I don't see the gangsters of the world rushing out to get an Ovcharka. Even gangsters have a sense of self preservation


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> LOL, no I really doubt that. An idiot owner, ignorant about the breed, living in a flat with a CO would end up in the emergency room and his dog seized. You wouldn't get hurt, the OWNER would.
> 
> That's the difference between these dogs and the other "status" dogs, an Ovcharka will happily teach an idiot owner a lesson, and bullies don't like being taught a lesson. So the trend won't last even if it starts to begin with.
> 
> People think pitbulls and staffies are used as status dogs because they're "hard" and mean, but they're not. They're status dogs because they're largely idiot-proof dogs. If people knew some of the outright abuse that is thrown at so many of these dogs with NO retaliation against the abuser... Yeah, I don't see the gangsters of the world rushing out to get an Ovcharka. Even gangsters have a sense of self preservation


Some of them at least  Let's not forget the recent dog attack - this woman continued to keep a known aggressive dog in her family home on an estate! People stupid enough to keep an aggressive dog like that without precautions [and have children in the home!!] certainly would carry on taking stupid risks

On another note I find it very amusing how many people get huskys to 'look hard' when the breed is usually thew worst of guard dogs :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Some of them at least  Let's not forget the recent dog attack - this woman continued to keep a known aggressive dog in her family home on an estate! People stupid enough to keep an aggressive dog like that without precautions [and have children in the home!!] certainly would carry on taking stupid risks


But that still proves my point. 
1. She had an aggressive dog yet continued to keep the dog which to me translates as over time she saw snippets and warnings. A CO isn't going to give you that many chances - if any. 
2. How many Ambulls are there in the UK? IDK but I'd imagine, just looking at pictures on this forum, that there are more than a few. I'm also guessing (sorry, but based on forum posts) that a lot of those AmBull owners are not the most savvy. Yet no harm has come to them.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi there Starlight, thanks for the reply, i am looking for what i believe is refered to as the Georgian Bear type, not the Central Plains type, with long hair and the short mussle, i think they are a beautiful looking dog. I would be most grateful for any information you could give me.

This a genuine request and certainly no joke, i have had large breeds before, a Doberman and a Rottweiler, both of which suffered from hip dysplasia. I understan that HD is a problem most, if not all large breeds can suffer from, which is why i am looking for a reputable breeder who's stock have been hip and elbow scored.

Regarding being a joke, although no doubt well meaning, i would hazard a guess that person has never had a large dog and therefor no experience with them at all. In my opinion all dogs, even toy breeds are capable of killing a baby/child under certain conditions.

If any child is hurt by a dog, it is not the dogs fault, it is the owners fault for not keeping it under control* No* child should be left alone with *ANY* dog in my opinion, because *ANY *breed can turn on a child. 
A recent case where a very docile Jack Russle killed a baby is a good example of that. What kind of a person would leave a baby alone with a Jack Russle, a terrier bred for killing rats and rabbits etc. The parents of that child are the ones at fault not the dog. Even toy breeds such a Yorkshire terrier or poodle are capable of killing a child in certain situations.

The *GOLDEN* rule is, *NEVER* leave any child alone with *ANY* dog.

The biggest danger to any child is the parent that says *"I know my dog wont harm my child"* No one can say which dog will or wont turn on a child.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2013)

Zundap said:


> This a genuine request and certainly no joke, i have had large breeds before, a Doberman and a Rottweiler, both of which suffered from hip dysplasia. I understan that HD is a problem most, if not all large breeds can suffer from, which is why* i am looking for a reputable breeder who's stock have been hip and elbow scored.*


My understanding is that you will be hard pressed to find anyone in the UK who does both, if you do, it might just be the dam and sire, not generations of heath testing. 
If you are on facebook, there are a couple of Ovcharka groups on there that might be worth checking out.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zundap said:


> Hi there Starlight, thanks for the reply, i am looking for what i believe is refered to as the Georgian Bear type, not the Central Plains type, with long hair and the short mussle, i think they are a beautiful looking dog. I would be most grateful for any information you could give me.
> 
> This a genuine request and certainly no joke, i have had large breeds before, a Doberman and a Rottweiler, both of which suffered from hip dysplasia. I understan that HD is a problem most, if not all large breeds can suffer from, which is why i am looking for a reputable breeder who's stock have been hip and elbow scored.
> 
> ...


You seem to be missing the point completely. The size of the dog is totally irrelevant; a rottie or a dobermann is still a family dog, even though a mostly guarding breed. An Ovcharka, no matter which one, has been bred for centuries to guard his flock against all sorts of predators and sees any stranger as a predator, as a threat to his family. No one is saying that it is not possible to keep one as a pet, but please be aware that nobody is referring to the dog's size.

I have two giant breed dogs, newfoundlands, but they are bred to rescue people from the sea so are naturally people friendly and welcoming. They may look like a Tibetan Mastiff, but they could not be farther from the character of one of those. Again, they are livestock guardians.

You need to do your research very, very carefully and forget the dog's size - it is irrelevant.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

These are the type of Ovcharka that i am looking for, who could not love these babies on sight?

tevel ore elmont borisz

Imperial Eriador FCI .:. OWCZAREK KAUKASKI - CAUCASIAN OVCHARKA


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi newfiesmum, i dont understand, i did not actually mention the size of the dog, could you clarify that point for me?

Newfoundlands are a lovely dog a friend of mine had one and i did actually consider getting one, but at that time i already had a dog, although he was quite old at that time. It did get to the point where my Vet advised me to put him to sleep and after i lost him, for quite some time after i could not think about getting another, but the time is right now i think. 

Do you have any photo's of your dog?


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks for the reply ouesi, i am not on facebook but my daughter is, so i will ask her to look for them. Do you know how i would find them on facebook? i understand there are millions of people on facebook.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2013)

Zundap said:


> These are the type of Ovcharka that i am looking for, who could not love these babies on sight?
> 
> tevel ore elmont borisz
> 
> Imperial Eriador FCI .:. OWCZAREK KAUKASKI - CAUCASIAN OVCHARKA


Yes, they're gorgeous dogs, not my personal preference (too much fur for me ), but yes, lovely.

I have to ask though, what are your expectations with this breed?

Is it mostly the look that draws you to them? 
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but how much have you researched the breed? They're more than just a pretty face


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

> LOL, no I really doubt that. An idiot owner, ignorant about the breed, living in a flat with a CO would end up in the emergency room and his dog seized. You wouldn't get hurt, the OWNER would.


Reading the above reminded me of those two young guys back in the sixties, i think it was, they bought a lion cub from Harods. They lived in a flat two guys and a lion cub and used to excersise the lion in the local church yard. Obviouisly when it got to a certain size, i think it was pretty large surprisingly, but they took the lion back to Africa and left it with a guy who returned it to the wild.

They went back to see it 35 years later and asked the chap if they could go and see their old lion friend who had a female lion with cubs i believe. The advice was that the lion would almost certainly not remember them and would more than likely attack them on site, but they agreed to give it a try at their own risk.

Not a chance?????

The lion recognised them on site and trotted up to them and jumped all over them, even more surpringly its fully wild female mate also let the lads stroke her. From a flat in the centre of London to the wilds of Africa, how would todays chavs have coped with that i wonder?

This is the story below, it looks as though the lion is attacking them to start with, its a real tear jerker, any one who hasn't seen will i am sure enjoy it.

Christian the Lion & the owners! after 35 years. Watch them. - YouTube


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Yes, they're gorgeous dogs, not my personal preference (too much fur for me ), but yes, lovely.
> 
> I have to ask though, what are your expectations with this breed?
> 
> *Is it mostly the look that draws you to them? *


Precisely my concern.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

> Yes, they're gorgeous dogs, not my personal preference (too much fur for me ), but yes, lovely.
> 
> I have to ask though, what are your expectations with this breed?
> 
> ...


It is not just the looks of the dog, although i do admire beauty in all its many wondrous forms, not least dogs. I have always been a dog lover, right from being a boy my Grandfather used to breed German Shepherds or Alsations as they were called then.

There are several reasons for wanting a dog, first and most important is that it would be a companion for my self. I do a heck of a lot of walking, either out at the coast or up in the Derbyshire moors and even Scotland in the summer.

It would also be a guard dog, for the house and garden and hopefully if I can get an Ovcharka that is KC registered, I would like to show it as well. 
If the dog did well in shows, I might then even go on to breeding. 
I would be happy enough if it were just a good companion and guard dog, the rest would be a bonus.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2013)

Zundap said:


> It is not just the looks of the dog, although i do admire beauty in all its many wondrous forms, not least dogs. I have always been a dog lover, right from being a boy my Grandfather used to breed German Shepherds or Alsations as they were called then.
> 
> There are several reasons for wanting a dog, first and most important is that it would be a companion for my self. I do a heck of a lot of walking, either out at the coast or up in the Derbyshire moors and even Scotland in the summer.
> 
> ...


Are you saying you would leave the dog unsupervised in the garden to guard your house?

Do you live in a residential area or more rural?


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I wonder how much it would cost to feed such a dog...... 

I think it's really very sensible to consider the size and power of a dog when considering its suitability as a pet. I've researched a fair few breeds and the breed club websites of some breeds certainly made the point that you need to remember the size and power of certain breeds and think about how capable you would be of controlling them / walking them.

It's not 'breedist' it's just common sense..... 

You would really need to be at the top of your game training-wise I should imagine - if Teddy jumps up or pulls on his lead it's not a problem. If Whisper jumps up or pulls on her lead it's not a problem. The chap down the road with a St Bernard manages too.

But if I am to believe the pics I've seen such a dog would be a lot bigger than a St Bernard?? Wow. I have a job holding Whisper when she chases a cat..... I can just see me being dragged all down the road by a dog this size lol! 

Just the physical size of a dog that big in your home takes some getting your head round too.

OP - if you do decide to go for one I'd be very interested in following your progress.  xx

Biting-wise we can't ignore the fact that the _size_ and _power_ of a dog makes a massive difference in the damage it can do! To ignore that would be silly! My friend was attacked by a Rottweiler - it did a *lot* of damage. The mental scars it left actually did more damage than the physical scars (and this is someone who loves dogs and had one of her own!). You can't ignore the fact that if it was a Cocker Spaniel who had attacked her the damage done would have been minimal...... and she would have been able to fight it off.

(This dog attack was unfortunately one that was bound to happen - I love Rotties but this one was seriously abused and had bitten several people before this incident. I know because I saw the dog lots of times and it was sheer coincidence I wasn't there with my friend and wasn't attacked!)

They are stunning dogs, I have to admit. But I wouldn't want one myself. Imagine the size of its poo!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Public Information Film.

How not to promote a dog breed. The type of folks who should not be allowed to breed them and the type of person who should never be allowed to own one.

All in one short video.

Caucasian mountain dog - YouTube


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Public Information Film.
> 
> How not to promote a dog breed. The type of folks who should not be allowed to breed them and the type of person who should never be allowed to own one.
> 
> ...


Wow. I don't really know what else to say..... Thanks for posting the link.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Public Information Film.
> 
> How not to promote a dog breed. The type of folks who should not be allowed to breed them and the type of person who should never be allowed to own one.
> 
> ...


And I thought the dogs101 the other day saying you don't need to walk dachshunds was bad :001_unsure:. That is exactly the kind of video that will make idiots want them for the penis extension factor and not for the wonderful dogs that they are.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Public Information Film.
> 
> How not to promote a dog breed. The type of folks who should not be allowed to breed them and the type of person who should never be allowed to own one.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Oh, that woman.... Grrrrrrrrr....

And this is exactly why I get so nervous when I read about a poster saying "I want my dog to protect me." "I want my dog to protect my property." Yeah...


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

> Are you saying you would leave the dog unsupervised in the garden to guard your house?
> 
> Do you live in a residential area or more rural?


I live just out side a small town, as I see it, I get the best of both worlds, one way the countryside, the other way good shopping, all the big name stores etc etc.

My garden is totally fenced in, just one gate in and out, my dog would be loose on the garden only while I am in the house. He would be with me most of the time, if for some reason I can not take him out with me, he would be in the house. My old dog never got out because I made sure that the fence was and still is maintained. My dog could not get out and no dog (or child) can get in. I have worked in the building trade most of my life, I erected the fence my self and I maintain it my self as I do my house.

I also have a smaller tarmac area out side my back door thats separately fenced off so the dog can go in and out of the house at will, that way we dont have to keep opening the door to let him out to do his buisness. The garden was one of the main reason for buying the house in the first place, that and the fact that our back it faces south and we get the sun all day long there.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

I have also read up on the ovcharka and on just about every web page they do tell you that you should get the them used to meeting strangers and other dogs while they are young, but in that respect they are no different from many other guard dog type breeds. - Such breeds as the German Shepherd, Dobe and Rottweiler, especially if you get the recently imported dogs. It seems that once a breed has been bred here in Britain the natural agression is bred out of them, in which case they are no longer guard dogs. 

A middle aged lady i met one day was telling me that her German Shepherd would not bark at people who came to the house and would even run away from other dogs, a Yorkshire Terrier included. She was greatly dismayed by that, she had bought it as a guard dog as she lived on her own in an area where burglaries were a weekly occurence.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

The saying goes, "There are two sides to every tale" But i have found its more acurate to say "There are *at least* two sides to every tale and usually more than two"

This youtube clip gives a good ballance to the other clip posted.

caucasian ovtcharka, pastor del caucaso, ovcharka, caucasian mountain dog video - YouTube


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2013)

Zundap said:


> I have also read up on the ovcharka and on just about every web page they do tell you that you should get the them used to meeting strangers and other dogs while they are young, but in that respect they are no different from many other guard dog type breeds. - Such breeds as the German Shepherd, Dobe and Rottweiler, especially if you get the recently imported dogs. It seems that once a breed has been bred here in Britain the natural agression is bred out of them, in which case they are no longer guard dogs.
> 
> A middle aged lady i met one day was telling me that her German Shepherd would not bark at people who came to the house and would even run away from other dogs, a Yorkshire Terrier included. She was greatly dismayed by that, she had bought it as a guard dog as she lived on her own in an area where burglaries were a weekly occurence.


An ovcharka is not a GSD, Dobe or Rottie. Not even close. Ovcharkas were never bred to be biddable or handler focused which makes a dog far easier to work with. And no, I wouldn't count on them having any of their instincts bred out of them.

Honestly, I love the breed, but I don't consider them a "pet" breed. They're really not the dog for someone who wants a pet. They are serious working dogs who are meant to be out roaming large areas keeping a herd safe from predators, not in a small yard protecting your home from the postman. This is the stuff BSL is made of...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

First and foremost; what many people including breeders won't tell you.

Did you know that many of these dogs have failed to reach the age of two years because their owners claimed that their respective animal developed some form of life threatening condition (brain tumor was the most common excuse) and said they were advised to have the animal put to sleep.

Yet the actual truths and facts were that the owners became frightened of the animal. His strong will and determination as it matured.

According to them, the dog they bought all those many months ago suddenly became a chimera. 
Their interpretation for attempting to excuse their own ignorance and dismal failure to properly research the breed and then provide for it.

Too many folks acquire these dogs for all the wrong reasons.

Because they are cute, cuddly and ultimately because they grow big and it was the big dog they wanted.

These are the folks who pave the road to the breed's ruin.

They are never asked what they really know about the breed. They are never quizzed about their motives behind owning the animal and nor are they ever asked what they have to offer the dog with regard to its living environment.

Through the net I can purchase one of these animals from another country and have it flown over and delivered to my door with no questions asked.

Breeder doesn't care, he's got his money and the likelihood of me turning up on his doorstep if things don't go exactly as I want them to...........(ie: the dog keeps outwitting me, is stubborn and defiant).....................zero.

You want to go hiking with a dog of this size? You're not going to get very far and pretty fast too. 
These giants are lumbering dogs. They're built for short distances not endurance walks and C/O's are relatively lazy dogs in most respects.

I can't emphasise enough that these dogs require tranquility and space. Suburbia is not their home.

Here's a short video I've fondly re-titled 'Halfwits and misfits'


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Zaros, do they overheat easily?

There's a place breeding them and selling them in Adelaide and I've always thought they'd be VERY unhappy in our climate. If they went walking in the UK would the day's temperature be an issue? I know everyone makes fun of British "summers" but it can be over 30C.

They do have the most magnificent coats and yours look very happy playing in snow. Do they lose enough coat to play in summer?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ozrex said:


> Zaros, do they overheat easily?
> 
> There's a place breeding them and selling them in Adelaide and I've always thought they'd be VERY unhappy in our climate. If they went walking in the UK would the day's temperature be an issue? I know everyone makes fun of British "summers" but it can be over 30C.
> 
> They do have the most magnificent coats and yours look very happy playing in snow. Do they lose enough coat to play in summer?


Oscars coat is quite deep, long and heavy unlike Zara who is closer coated but neither dog really likes hot weather.

Zara does tend to cope with it better than Oscar. During the summer we walk them early in the morning before the day has chance to warm up.

In addition we bought an air conditioning unit for Oscar because he has real problems with the heat.

It's where he can be found at any time of the night or day in summer.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Thanks Zaros.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zundap said:


> Hi newfiesmum, i dont understand, i did not actually mention the size of the dog, could you clarify that point for me?
> 
> Newfoundlands are a lovely dog a friend of mine had one and i did actually consider getting one, but at that time i already had a dog, although he was quite old at that time. It did get to the point where my Vet advised me to put him to sleep and after i lost him, for quite some time after i could not think about getting another, but the time is right now i think.
> 
> Do you have any photo's of your dog?


Did you not say:

This a genuine request and certainly no joke, *i have had large breeds before*, a Doberman and a Rottweiler, both of which suffered from hip dysplasia. I understan that HD is a problem most, if not all large breeds can suffer from, which is why i am looking for a reputable breeder who's stock have been hip and elbow scored.

Regarding being a joke, although no doubt well meaning, *i would hazard a guess that person has never had a large dog *and therefor no experience with them at all.

This is a direct quote from your own post.

Apart from the avatar and signature photos, there are lots of photos on my profile page in the albums.

I do not believe that any Ovcharka is recognised by the UK kennel club, though I could be wrong. The Pyrenean Mountain Dog is the closest, as it is basically a livestock guardian but has been domesticated long enough to make a nice pet - if you know what you are doing. Even they can be a bit on the wild side for a lot of pet owners.

Any dog will protect you, even a big dopey newfoundland, though perhaps not a husky from what I have heard.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ozrex said:


> Zaros, do they overheat easily?
> 
> There's a place breeding them and selling them in Adelaide and I've always thought they'd be VERY unhappy in our climate. If they went walking in the UK would the day's temperature be an issue? I know everyone makes fun of British "summers" but it can be over 30C.
> 
> They do have the most magnificent coats and yours look very happy playing in snow. Do they lose enough coat to play in summer?


Newfies have the same problem. Their idea of warm weather is not most peoples and I have to be very careful with them as they are very prone to heatstroke. I nearly lost Joshua from heatstroke at only ten weeks.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

> An ovcharka is not a GSD, Dobe or Rottie. Not even close. Ovcharkas were never bred to be biddable or handler focused which makes a dog far easier to work with. And no, I wouldn't count on them having any of their instincts bred out of them.
> 
> Honestly, I love the breed, but I don't consider them a "pet" breed. They're really not the dog for someone who wants a pet. They are serious working dogs who are meant to be out roaming large areas keeping a herd safe from predators, not in a small yard protecting your home from the postman. This is the stuff BSL is made of...


ouesi you seem to have a lot of knowledge on this breed, could i just do you have personal experience with Ovcharkas?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

Zundap said:


> ouesi you seem to have a lot of knowledge on this breed, could i just do you have personal experience with Ovcharkas?


My experience is with Central Asian Shepherds which is a closely related breed.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Did you not say:
> 
> This a genuine request and certainly no joke, *i have had large breeds before*, a Doberman and a Rottweiler, both of which suffered from hip dysplasia. I understan that HD is a problem most, if not all large breeds can suffer from, which is why i am looking for a reputable breeder who's stock have been hip and elbow scored.
> 
> ...


We seem to be talking at cross purposes here, i actually meant that i had not mentioned the size of the Ovcharka. An Ovcharka to me is a beautiful looking dog irespective of its size. Even if it were the size of a springer spaniel, it would still be a beautiful looking dog.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

ouesi said:


> My experience is with Central Asian Shepherds which is a closely related breed.


Yes indeed it is almost the same breed as i understand it, do you live here in the UK?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

Nope, I'm in the US.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Its a shame you are not here in the UK, but either way, if its ok with you could i refer back to you in future regarding any queries i might have?

I nearly bought a Central Asin Shepherd from a lovely lady down in Sheffield, but it was the Georgian type i was looking for. She had a few dogs in her house, all beautiful looking dogs of the mastiff type and all of them were lovely friendly and healthy looking dogs. If she imports any Ovcharka's in the near future, of the Bear type, i may get one from her, but i am hoping to get one sooner rather than later.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zundap said:


> Its a shame you are not here in the UK, but either way, if its ok with you could i refer back to you in future regarding any queries i might have?
> 
> I nearly bought a Central Asin Shepherd from a lovely lady down in Sheffield, but it was the Georgian type i was looking for. She had a few dogs in her house, all beautiful looking dogs of the mastiff type and all of them were lovely friendly and healthy looking dogs. If she imports any Ovcharka's in the near future, of the Bear type, i may get one from her, but i am hoping to get one sooner rather than later.


May I ask what the Georgian type has that the others don't?


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

It has a longer coat than the central plains type and i believe a heavier frame and a larger head with a short muzzle.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm always happy to answer behavior/training questions if I think I can help, but right now I think you need to be still considering if this is really the breed for you and your needs. I could be wrong, but just my perception from your posts is that you're looking at a breed that will end up not working out quite like you had hoped.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Statistically speaking the most prolific biters are Cockers & Labradors, the dogs classed as "family dogs",
> I find that a lot more worrying.


Statistically speaking, in the USA the dog most-likely to bite is a Doxie - often a Std Smooth, 
frequently a red.

However, loads of buff Cockers, red Springers, & yellow Labs also bite ppl every year - 
WHY? *Cuz there are a truckload of Labs, Cockers, & Springers, compared to the number of 
Ovcharka in the USA.* Does that mean Caucasian Shepherds are easy dogs, & novices should buy one?
*H***, no.*


Starlite said:


> [The BC who lives] 5 doors down has to be muzzled as he is human aggressive, should he
> also be PTS, even tho he is managed effectively by his owner?


Who says he should be euthed? :sosp: Not i.

however, if the owner or the petsitter takes him out WITHOUT the muzzle, they should be fined, 
& if the behavior persists, the dog IMO should be confiscated. The Calif Dangerous Dog law 
is an excellent model, which includes specific responsibilities, handling, confinement, etc, that 
the owners or any handler of a dog KNOWN TO BE dangerous must abide by; muzzle, fencing, leash, 
& so on. If they break the rules, there's a fine; repeated violations mean bigger fines, & if it is not
resolved, the dog is taken by the ACC. 


Starlite said:


> Any dog is dangerous if made to be so, targeting the breed has made zero difference in stopping attacks.


No-one is "targeting the breed" - i, however, would never suggest a CO as a pet for anyone, 
frankly, but most especially for any novice. They are much better as working dogs on acreage, 
since just like the other LGDs, they come with a problematic set of behaviors: night patrols 
going from room to room & door to window, nocturnal barking from an over-100# dog with a loud bark, 
a powerful territorial devotion, & so on.

ANYTHING an LGD can see is 'her' / 'his' territory, so in town the sidewalk outside is the DOG's; 
they will loudly protest intruders.  Not well received by the neighbors, ya know?...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

metaldog said:


> A Mal has a completely different temperament to a Caucasian Shepherd dog.


yup - 
& just as i wouldn't suggest a Mal or a CO to a novice, i wouldn't suggest a JRT - 
it's not JUST size, it's behavior, activity, *reactivity*, vocal or quiet, & so on.

All dogs are dogs - but that doesn't mean that any dog will do.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> ...the good thing about a dog like an Ovcharka is that when idiots end up with them, they tend to create
> a self-correcting problem, more so than more forgiving breeds like, say, an APBT.
> 
> Idiots and Ovcharkas don't tend to last very long together, in some form or another.
> So I wouldn't worry too much there


hopefully the CO munches on the eejit owner, not some poor devil who just happens by... 
if it's the eejit who's crunched, i'll say it couldn't happen to a nicer person.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> ... it's kind of like why you'll see tough-guy, crank-&-yank trainers show off their toughness with dogs
> like the bull-breeds & working line dogs who have a rep & *look* hard, but are generally typical dogs,
> in that they appease in the face of confrontation with a human.
> 
> ...


Remember when CM/DW tried to kick - oops, sorry, "tap with his toe" - a certain male Mal-cross?... 
:lol: his sweater got the worst of it, but his arm wasn't well-knitted, either.  A real-life example 
of that 'raveled sleeve of care', eh?... 


ouesi said:


> It generally takes a LOT to turn your typical bull-breed into a man-biter.


yes - sometimes i truly wish they were less-forgiving.  Some jerks deserve a chomp.


ouesi said:


> CO, on the other hand, don't suffer fools.
> They're not a breed you can push around or be stupid with and expect to keep all your appendages.
> So even if one does end up in the 'wrong' hands, it would be short lived and the trend wouldn't last
> that long.


gosh, i hope so - that dimwitted woman at Thunderhawk kennels drives me mad - DoG help us 
if she succeeds in her bizarre promotion of *"the stopping-power of a Magnum, with a brain."*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Zundap said:


> Reading the above reminded me of those two young guys back in the sixties, i think it was, they bought
> a lion cub from [Harrod's]. They lived in a flat, two guys & a lion cub, and used to exercise the lion
> in the local church yard. Obviously when it got to a certain size, i think it was pretty large surprisingly,
> but they took the lion back to Africa and left it with *a guy who returned [him] to the wild*.


George - of _Born Free_ fame.


Zundap said:


> They went back to see it *35 years* later...


even in captivity, lions don't live to be 35-YO.

Elephants, yes; lions? No.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Zundap said:


> It seems that *once a breed has been bred here in Britain the natural aggression is bred out
> of them*, in which case they are no longer guard dogs.


re-e-e-e-eally?... :sosp:

Did U miss NewfiesMum, posting about the owner of the Pyr whose dog had to be given up, 
as the LGD became aggressive as an adult? PYRS are much-softer natured than the usual C-O.

i don't think that breeding a litter in the UK magically deletes the aggro.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> re-e-e-e-eally?... :sosp:
> 
> i don't think that breeding a litter in the UK magically deletes the aggro.


I believe you need to brush up on your research.

Aggression is an option in the UK variety because each dog comes complete with one of these:










Breeders are obliged to make the buyer aware of this fact.

But just in case they withhold that information I have a fairly good stock of 'slight seconds' or previously owned instruments. :wink:


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zundap said:


> It has a longer coat than the central plains type and i believe a heavier frame and a larger head with a short muzzle.


You have replied just as I feared you would. You are wanting the dog because of its looks, there is nothing about the temperament of the dog, just its looks. This is a disastrous reason on which to base your dog preference, especially when you are talking about such a specialised breed.

If you want an 80 kg, hairy giant, why not go for a newfoundland, leonberger, Bernese mountain dog, Greater Swiss mountain dog, Old English sheepdog?

These are all magnificent dogs who will turn heads, who will slow down traffic as the drivers want a closer look, but they are unlikely to threaten your visitors or howl all night because they don't have a flock to guard.



leashedForLife said:


> re-e-e-e-eally?... :sosp:
> 
> Did U miss NewfiesMum, posting about the owner of the Pyr whose dog had to be given up,
> as the LGD became aggressive as an adult? PYRS are much-softer natured than the usual C-O.
> ...


And the owner loved that dog. He was heartbroken at having to give him up.

As far as I am aware, the only LGD that has been bred long enough in the UK is the Pyrenean and they don't always work out. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that when they enter English soil they have to check in their aggression at the customs desk.

In Early Victorian times, after the abolition of slavery in this country, there was a saying that no slave could breathe the air in England. That meant, of course, that once they set foot on English soil, they were free, but it was twisted to scare the slaves away from wanting to come here.

Obviously, English soil also turns Livestock Guardian dogs into great, soppy couch potatoes who love everybody. Or am I getting mixed up with a newfoundland?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> You have replied just as I feared you would.
> 
> You are wanting the dog because of its looks, there is nothing about the temperament of the dog, just its looks.
> 
> ...


But surely NM, when you're searching for a trophy I suspect reason and common sense are simply not welcome at all.

Somewhere lost amongst the many posts regarding this category of dog I have actually referred to both the Caucasian and the Sar' as 'Lucky Bag' dogs. The reason behind this is fairly simple.

You just don't know what you're getting inside.:yesnod:


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zaros said:


> But surely NM, when you're searching for a trophy I suspect reason and common sense are simply not welcome at all.
> 
> Somewhere lost amongst the many posts regarding this category of dog I have actually referred to both the Caucasian and the Sar' as 'Lucky Bag' dogs. The reason behind this is fairly simple.
> 
> You just don't know what you're getting inside.:yesnod:


Well, Zaros, I want a dog I can enjoy, not one I am having to constantly worry about. I would never believe that the dog was happy, even if he did prove to accept his environment. We can't all move to a forest to accommodate our dogs and most people expect the dog to fit in with the people, not the other way round.

Why would anyone go for a dog which is likely to be a bio hazard in a suburban setting, just because it is "different". There are lots of dogs which are unique but not quite such a trial.

I want to be able to let my dogs off lead, I want to know they can go say hello to other dogs and people without having to worry. Does that make me the odd one? Or perhaps I am just too old for adventure


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Well, Zaros, I want a dog I can enjoy, not one I am having to constantly worry about. I would never believe that the dog was happy, even if he did prove to accept his environment. We can't all move to a forest to accommodate our dogs and most people expect the dog to fit in with the people, not the other way round.
> 
> Why would anyone go for a dog which is likely to be a bio hazard in a suburban setting, just because it is "different". There are lots of dogs which are unique but not quite such a trial.
> 
> I want to be able to let my dogs off lead, I want to know they can go say hello to other dogs and people without having to worry. Does that make me the odd one? Or perhaps I am just too old for adventure


I've often wondered if my own preference of dog breed qualifies me as a bona fide member of the 'Dangerous Sports Club'

There's a great possibility that, should I be accompanied by Zara I would be welcomed with open arms and torn shirt sleeves :wink: yet I have every justifiable reason to believe that Oscar would be a great disappointment and have me barred for all time from their doorstep for being an imposter 

The character differences of these dogs, Caucasian and Sar', even from the same litter is huge and confining and restricting them to an ordinary dog's life is tantamount to a life of cruel imprisonment for them.

However, no matter how placid their temperament appears to be, you simply cannot steer them away from their instincts.

Even the Finnish obedience champion has had his moments of relapse. :yesnod:

The successful and well balanced rearing of these dogs relies not only on the understanding, patience and commitment of the owner/s but also on the dedictaion of the more knowledgeable breeder/s.

Moreover NM it's exactly as you say, it is dependent on the owner surrendering or adapting his or her lifestyle to suit the dog.

Acquiring these animals for the single purpose of ownership novelty and status is a deliberate act of complacency which can be both dangerous and destructive.

PS: I hope there's still a few years adventure left in me because if there isn't then Zara and Oscar are sadly destined for the dogs home.

Not that they haven't been threatened with it already. :wink:


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> George - of _Born Free_ fame.
> 
> even in captivity, lions don't live to be 35-YO.
> 
> Elephants, yes; lions? No.


 DUH - Tell it to the guy who posted the youtube clip.


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> re-e-e-e-eally?... :sosp:
> 
> Did U miss NewfiesMum, posting about the owner of the Pyr whose dog had to be given up,
> as the LGD became aggressive as an adult? PYRS are much-softer natured than the usual C-O.
> ...


There's one in every forum, i guess i just found this forums one. - *How long have you had that attitude problem? *


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

> You have replied just as I feared you would. You are wanting the dog because of its looks, there is nothing about the temperament of the dog, just its looks. This is a disastrous reason on which to base your dog preference, especially when you are talking about such a specialised breed.


Why dont people read the posts before they make comments??? Did you not read my earlier reply to Starlite??????????? Obviously not. I have already explained to Starlite why i wanted this type of dog, please go and read it before handing out your opinions, opinions that were not even asked for.

What is it with people like you? People who think they know more than anyone else. What gives you the right to tell me what kind of dog i should or should not have.

Why do you think you know more about dogs than i do? You have no idea who i am or what i am or what i know.



> If you want an 80 kg, hairy giant, why not go for a newfoundland, leonberger, Bernese mountain dog, Greater Swiss mountain dog, Old English sheepdog?


Simply because i dont one, is that all right with you? Do you mind me not wanting one of those dogs? I swear i have never seen such arogance in any other forum.



> These are all magnificent dogs who will turn heads, who will slow down traffic as the drivers want a closer look, but they are unlikely to threaten your visitors or howl all night because they don't have a flock to guard.


Right now let me ask you, How many Ovcharkas have you had?

I find hard it to take advice from someone who does not check things out before they buy a dog, which is what you did apparently.

I have read everything i can find on these dogs, as well as coming here to look for more information. Your know it all attitude nearly killed a puppy you purchased, you did not check out the needs of that puppy before you aquired it and you lecture me? I dont think so.

I will research the breed i want and i will buy the breed i want, even if i have to go to Russia and ship it back myself. But please explain to me, what makes you think that you know more about me, than i know about my self.

Are you G-d amighty maybe? Or Pet Forums official dog G-d perhaps? Please tell me i would sincerely like to know.

You do remember buying that Pyrenean, Yes? the one that neary died of heat stroke, because you did not check deep enough as to the requirements of that breed. And you think you can lecture me on dogs? Sheeeeeesh.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Zundap said:


> You do remember buying that Pyrenean, Yes? ...
> the one that [nearly] died of heat stroke, because you did not check deep enough as to the [needs]
> of that breed.


that pup was a Newfie, not a Pyr - & it was the heat, not NM's unforgivable carelessness 
or ignorance, that made him so ill.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I find it very awful how selfish some people can be. 'I'll get what I want even if it means getting it from Russia'. Have you stopped to think about what the dog needs in this equation or will you be happy so long as YOU get what YOU want?  What exactly can you offer this dog because I have yet to hear a valid way for you to keep it happy or in an appropriate environment.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Zundap said:


> Right now let me ask you, How many Ovcharkas have you had?
> 
> I will research the breed i want and i will buy the breed i want, *even if it's to the detriment of the dog because I don't care about anyone or anything but my own image.*


Well at this precise moment in time I own two and personally know about 200 and a further 15 to 20 that I would like to know personally.

Patience will no doubt reduce those numbers in time just as patience has done so in the past. :smile:

I also personally know a couple of Tibetan Mastiffs.

But I'm not showing off here.:sneaky2:

I've previously stated their intrinsic requirements and needs and I don't see the point of repeating myself to those who are unable to comprehend simple written text or ignore it completely.

If you're interested, which I very much doubt, I have a stock of photographs depicting injuries sustained by the careless handling of these animals.

These include broken bones from a single bite.

Furthermore, I rather believe it's you with the attitude problem especially with concern for your motives behind wanting to own this breed of dog which I consider to be no more and no less than your own selfish needs.

Consider the dog then consider what you have to offer it in relation to what that dog essentially requires to live a happy and contented life.

The dog's needs come before yours.

Its boredom and its frustration will be your undoing.

And may Dog have mercy on your soul.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zundap said:


> Why dont people read the posts before they make comments??? Did you not read my earlier reply to Starlite??????????? Obviously not. I have already explained to Starlite why i wanted this type of dog, please go and read it before handing out your opinions, opinions that were not even asked for.
> 
> What is it with people like you? People who think they know more than anyone else. What gives you the right to tell me what kind of dog i should or should not have.
> 
> ...


Oh dear. Where to start?  You accuse me of not reading the posts, then tell me I had a Pyrenean which I certainly never would entertain. I would never have a Pyrenean because they are specialised and difficult and not a dog I would be happy with. My puppy was a newfie, 10 weeks old, and he did not get heatstroke because I did not research the breed. He got heatstroke in the house, with my older newfie who was not affected. DO READ THE POSTS BEFORE COMMENTING

I have never owned an Ovcharka because I have never owned a lot of land and I want a dog who can be a family pet, not a wild animal just looking for something to protect. I personally do not believe that those dogs should be kept as pets at all unless you have the space and environment for them.

I am giving my advice gained from 30 years experience and I have the sense to know that there is a lot more to any dog than what it looks like. All dogs have their traits and being the human, it is our duty to be sure we can accommodate those traits and work with them, because owning a dog is a privilege not a right.

But please don't run away with the idea that I care if you and your family get savaged by your own dog because you didn't listen to experienced people, even people like Zaros who owns ovcharkas, and thought you knew it all. You are entitled to buy any dog you wish, more's the pity. My only concern is that if the dog kills you it will be the one to get the blame and be put down, which is a terrible waste of an intelligent being.

Oh, I feel better now!


----------



## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Zundap said:


> It is not just the looks of the dog, although i do admire beauty in all its many wondrous forms, not least dogs. I have always been a dog lover, right from being a boy my Grandfather used to breed German Shepherds or Alsations as they were called then.
> 
> There are several reasons for wanting a dog, first and most important is that it would be a companion for my self. I do a heck of a lot of walking, either out at the coast or up in the *Derbyshire moors *and even Scotland in the summer.
> 
> ...


First and foremost I want to say I'm Soooo pleased "I" did not scare you off in the beginning of your thread when people said I might have!  with my rantings, but it seems to be panning out that my "gut instinct" was right, ... But gladly you came back and are getting some excellent advice!! I live in hope you heed it! but have to say I wont hold my breath!

I have highlighted the part that concerns me as I live very close to where you say you may be taking your dog, and it certainly looks like you are adamant to get one of these "specialist breeds"......so could I ask if you let me know when you take said dog to Derbyshire in the future .....

Another thing worries me no end is, you say you live on the outskirts of a "Town"..... I live in a village, albeit a large one, but I still class it as a concrete jungle and with what you describe of your property it sounds like a similar place? and certainly not suitable for this breed....IMO!


----------



## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Well at this precise moment in time I own two and personally know about 200 and a further 15 to 20 that I would like to know personally.
> 
> Patience will no doubt reduce those numbers in time just as patience has done so in the past. :smile:
> 
> ...


"Hear Hear" ....excellent post!!, lets hope he listens eh!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MyMillie said:


> "Hear Hear" ....excellent post!!, lets hope he listens eh!


Yeah. There's fairies down the bottom of my garden


----------



## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Yeah. There's fairies down the bottom of my garden


 mine too!....it's scary knowing they wont isnt it!


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MyMillie said:


> mine too!....it's scary knowing they wont isnt it!


Well if Zaros' advice is anything to go by (which it is) then it's the OP who should be scared, not necessarily the general public, which is a sort of blessing really.


----------



## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Well if Zaros' advice is anything to go by (which it is) then it's the OP who should be scared, not necessarily the general public, which is a sort of blessing really.


Good point! .... (I respect the knowledge of Zaros)


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

:blush: Hardly the seasoned expert but at least I'm always in contact with those who possess a lifetime's experience of the dog. :yesnod:

I wonder how many of the people who own this category of dog actually tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about their dogs?

How many sins and indiscretions they're quite happy to cover over in order to promote a glowing picture of an animal that can often be just as wilfull as we are?

For the proper furtherance of this animal I'm not prepared to tell untruths just for the sake of giving them an exemplary reference and I certainly have no intention or desire of telling untruths about either of mine via a forum or anywhere else for that matter. 

Not being brutally honest about these dogs is forging them a nemesis they don't deserve.

Not only that but hiding the hard truths is encouraging people to acquire them for any old reason but the right reason.

Honesty is the best policy. 

Being aware of your dog's traits and attempting to hide them in the hope they won't ever surface in public is extremely foolish and simply saying. 'Oh dear he's never done that before' just won't wash!


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> I find it very awful how selfish some people can be. Have you stopped to think about what the dog needs in this equation or will you be happy so long as YOU get what YOU want?  .


I find it awful when i meet people who think they know better than everyone else.



> What exactly can you offer this dog because I have yet to hear a valid way for you to keep it happy or in an appropriate environment


*What do you offer your dog? *

Once again, i repeat,* i have read everything i can find on these dogs,* unlike some i could mention. What else do you expect me to do, Ask the dog if it wants to come and live me? Or ask it which town it wants to live in perhaps?

Who are you to demand reasons why i want a dog? Just who the hell do you think you are?

*Pray tell oh great and mighty one, what qualification do you have that make you qualified to give anyone advice on Ovcharkas? *


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

*I believe this is the only sensible thing left for me to do about the whole affair! *:yesnod:


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> that pup was a Newfie, not a Pyr - & it was the heat, not NM's unforgivable carelessness
> or ignorance, that made him so ill.


So its a newfie, big deal, obviously your not bright enough to work out, its the principle not the breed that matters, ask your mum when she gets home and i'm sure she will explain it to you.

Are you wired up right?

To anyone with even a smattering of inteligence its patently clear, that nm did not research the breeds needs, she did not know that newfies can suffer heat stroke, hence she did not research it thoroughly, her ignorance and arogance, are the reasons she made that puppy suffer severe stress and almost killed it. And she wants to tell me what i should with dogs? On your bike mate.

Ignorance and arogance are the main reason for animal cruelty. Its even worse when she put that puppy through hell and is too arogant to except that she was wrong. she will never learn anything because she thinks she knows it all already.

That ignorance and arogance was almost fatal for one harmless inocent puppy.

Do you really think i am stupid enough to take advice from some one like that?


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Zundap said:


> So its a newfie, big deal, obviously your not bright enough to work out, its the principle not the breed that matters, ask your mum when she gets home and i'm sure she will explain it to you.
> 
> Are you wired up right?
> 
> ...


:lol: She already had a fully grown newfie when the puppy came home. Did she need to research the breed all over again? 

Good luck in your stupid venture, you are obviously too arrogant and ignorant to be deterred from such a silly idea, perhaps instead of throwing insults you should first look at how hypocritical it sounds for you of all people to be throwing them. Glass houses and all that. While doing your research I hope you came across rescues or people willing to take on your dog should it maul you or outgrow your expectations.


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2013)

Bottom line, this really isn't a pet breed. This is not a dog you can happily wander through the meadow with expecting him to get along with random people and dogs you might encounter. They're not "dog park" dogs, they're not social dogs. They bond strongly to their family and the children in their family, but that doesn't mean they'll be kind to your children's friends who come over. 

The kind of socialization and training required of this breed is too much for even the above average pet home. Their instincts are strong and run deep. They're also very slow to mature, so owners often get lulled in to a false sense of security, and they they're completely caught off guard when their formerly social 2 year old becomes frighteningly territorial at 3. That's when the dog ends up put down because of a "brain" issue or some such. It's really a tragedy, and if you're not prepared for a LIFETIME commitment to a dog who is as powerful and strong-willed as this kind, then don't get one. 

I adore the breed enough to know I will never own one.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ... There's fairies down the bottom of my garden


ooh!  Can i come see them?...  Do they have sparkly wings?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> :lol: [NewfiesMum] already had a fully grown Newfie when the puppy came home.
> Did she need to research the breed all over again?


what Phoolf said. :thumbsup:


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> I find it very awful how selfish some people can be. 'I'll get what I want even if it means getting it from Russia'. Have you stopped to think about what the dog needs in this equation or will you be happy so long as YOU get what YOU want?  What exactly can you offer this dog because I have yet to hear a valid way for you to keep it happy or in an appropriate environment.


And who decides what is an apropriate enviroment? You?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zundap said:


> I find it awful when i meet people who think they know better than everyone else.
> 
> *What do you offer your dog? *
> 
> ...


How about the fact that they own two Ovcharkas already and have done for some years? How about they moved to a cold country and bought a house with land and a forest, just so they could have Ovcharkas. Are you prepared to do that?



Zundap said:


> So its a newfie, big deal, obviously your not bright enough to work out, its the principle not the breed that matters, ask your mum when she gets home and i'm sure she will explain it to you.
> 
> Are you wired up right?
> 
> ...


You would know more about ignorance and arrogance than the rest of us put together I should think. Of course, no one as knowledgeable as you would leave the puppy in the house, with an adult dog of the same breed and with fans on, for an hour and come back to find the dog ill. He was at the vets and in a paddling pool with a drip in his arm within ten minutes.

You really are pathetic. I sincerely hope you are never in a position to get any dog, never mind a specialised breed. That is S-P-E-C-I-A-L-I-S-E-D in case you want to look it up.


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

*Zaros said*:



> I'm always in contact with those who possess a lifetime's experience of the dog.


So am i, via the internet, but unfortunately they are not in the UK.


----------



## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> First and foremost I want to say I'm Soooo pleased "I" did not scare you off in the beginning of your thread when people said I might have!  with my rantings, but it seems to be panning out that my "gut instinct" was right, ... But gladly you came back and are getting some excellent advice!! I live in hope you heed it! but have to say I wont hold my breath!
> 
> I have highlighted the part that concerns me as I live very close to where you say you may be taking your dog, and it certainly looks like you are adamant to get one of these "specialist breeds"......so could I ask if you let me know when you take said dog to Derbyshire in the future .....
> 
> Another thing worries me no end is, you say you live on the outskirts of a "Town"..... I live in a village, albeit a large one, but I still class it as a concrete jungle and with what you describe of your property it sounds like a similar place? and certainly not suitable for this breed....IMO!


but it seems to be panning out that my "gut instinct" was right, ...

What worries me is someone who thinks with her gut and not her brain, that and so called womens instinct are the downfall of many arrogant people.

I live in a village, albeit a large one, but I still class it as a concrete jungle and with what you describe of your property it sounds like a similar place? and certainly not suitable for this breed....IMO!

How do you know how big my garden is.

How do you know how strong the fence is?

How do you know how high my fence is.

How much concrete is there in your village jungle?

Could you answer me those questions?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Zundap said:


> So am i, via the internet, but unfortunately they are not in the UK.


Is that so?

This is what I think.

You're a 13 year old bored delinquent with a brokendown playstation and alcoholic parents.

You had nothing to entertain you and no one to give you the attention you so desperately craved.

In an attempt to reslove these issues and your predicament you've broken into the neighbour's house and hacked into their computer.

After viewing the porn sites, which you didn't quite get the gist of because everyone spoke a strange language (Mein Gott! Ja! Ja und ja!) You finally stumbled upon PF's where you pretend to be a german made motorbike minus one 'P'

Then you browse the topics until you discover what you believe to be a fairly controversial subject and it is at this point you deviously hatch a plan of nuisance and irritation.

Now if you want my advice sonny why don't you go and bore the dog sh1t out of somebody else? :smile:


----------



## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Zundap said:


> So its a newfie, big deal, obviously your not bright enough to work out, its the principle not the breed that matters, ask your mum when she gets home and i'm sure she will explain it to you.
> 
> Are you wired up right?
> 
> ...


I said my bit about what I think of these dogs being kept in the UK on post #30 and I won't repeat myself because it's been backed up by some I would consider experts (thanks Zaros and Ousie). I mentioned researching them because someone in my extended family wanted one, the more of your post I read the more you sound like him. Is that you James?

If so, before you start to insult someone's intelligence you really should try to remember it has the word intelligent has two ls and if you are then going to accuse someone of arrogance please will you learn to spell that properly as well please, oh and innocence has 2 ns you Muppet. :lol:

*If you are not James please accept my apology and ignore the second paragraph I would never be so rude to a complete stranger over the internet


----------



## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Is that so?
> 
> This is what I think.
> 
> ...


Lol... and I said this on my early responses to this thread (#6).... I felt that they were a newbie and their thread was a "set up", so got to agree with you on all you say!


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Bottom line, this really isn't a pet breed. This is not a dog you can happily wander through the meadow with expecting him to get along with random people and dogs you might encounter. They're not "dog park" dogs, they're not social dogs. They bond strongly to their family and the children in their family, but that doesn't mean they'll be kind to your children's friends who come over.
> 
> The kind of socialization and training required of this breed is too much for even the above average pet home. Their instincts are strong and run deep. They're also very slow to mature, so owners often get lulled in to a false sense of security, and they they're completely caught off guard when their formerly social 2 year old becomes frighteningly territorial at 3. That's when the dog ends up put down because of a "brain" issue or some such. It's really a tragedy, and if you're not prepared for a LIFETIME commitment to a dog who is as powerful and strong-willed as this kind, then don't get one.
> 
> *I adore the breed enough to know I will never own one*.


This entire post says it all really well IMHO.

Especially that last line.

Stunning dogs, though


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Dear Zundap, I know nothing about the breed of dog you have been researching except that which I have gleaned from this thread and its links.
People on here are passionate about dogs and some of them even tolerate people.It is interesting and disturbing to watch replies deteriorate from very helpful and generous to what almost amounts to a slanging match.
having waded through this thread, about halfway through I was going to ask if you had read any of the replies. Then I realised you were happy to reply to those whose advice you thought supported your decision. To be fair to you you were NOT asking if such a dog was suitable for your lifestyle only where you could get a good one.
Such is the concern of folk here that they have been trying to suss out if you were aware what you would be letting yourselves in for. Such is their passion that some may have shot themselves in the foot by anatgonising you.
You've also made a grand job of antagonising a lot of us. Please take care and be safe in your eventual decision, the dog may not be so forunate if you make the wrong one.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> Surely any dog breed can exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies if not socialised and trained?


hilarious !!!! reading that breed description...a very HONEST about almost all dogs or many dogs description and advice rolled into one in my view !!

i add breeders of the Belgian Shepherd in France always use that phrase regarding the belgians...NOT FOR EVERYONE ! pas pour tout le monde !!

well DOGS are for everyone ! they have TEETH ! they take up SPACE ! they can bite strangers for sure ! they are not safe alone around children unsupervised ! etc etc !!!

i wish that ADVICE in particular included it seems in the Ovcharka or name like that dog breed descriptions were in ALL DOG BREED DESCRIPTIONS !!

hilarious !!! and in view yes of recent tragedy of JADE i get HER name right if not this breed of dog...we need to MANAGE meaning CONTROL our dogs better for others safey in our homes or when in public.....i do know this breed i add...and hey...try asking about another sheepdog with that kindda reputation ...the BEAUTIFUL even more beautiful to me ITALIAN MAREMMA ! like an elegant Montagne des Pyrenees white giant fluffy dog ! that one had how to call it...CARACHTERE issues !!! due to inbreeding ? dunno . or just BORN TO GUARD ! now there are sheepdogs and sheepdogs...2 types..one type is the HERDERS and the other are the PROTECTORS ! originally ...now of course the Belgian shepherds got bred into more PROTECTORS than herders in many peoples views...

we get what we breed for i say...so ? depends on the caracters of the parents in particular the breeder socialisation done and of course there ARE dogs that are far less DOG friendly that others out therr...meeting the um YORKSHIRE TERRIER of a neighbour via a glass window just again yesterday demonstrated that well enough to me ! we had 2 BELGIAN SHEPERDS lunging in fury at the glass on the other side of which was a LUNGING FURY YORKSHIRE TERRIER ! none of the dogs had ANY time for the OWNERS i add !!!


ps the prob with WINDOWS is ? NO SMELLS ! so makes dogs more aggressive and the HOLD ME BACK syndrome also...dogs on leads or behind fences will appear more ferocious...They KNOW that DETERS !

ppss check out kennel club gb list of approved breeders in uk...then further afield if you can travel...beware uk import dog laws

BIG DOG ! BIG TEETH ! like many. doesnt like strangers ? well if not fussed about that keep them away from him !

you have choices. depends what you want from the dog and how social you are with people outside your familly for dogs some people dont have dogs in the house when visitors come. YOU can make ANY dog how you want it...that is my view...dogs become like their owners the saying goes...i am not much into BREEDISM myself i add.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Zundap said:


> I find it awful when i meet people who think they know better than everyone else.
> 
> *What do you offer your dog? *
> 
> ...


ahh...i think you are a NEWBIE ? if so...you are getting a sight of yes being LECTURED to !!! i must tell you now in case this is your FIRST TIME like sex but less enjoyable...that this is unfortunately COMMON on this and many forums.

yes there are people out there who think due to their experiences they can TELL you they KNOW BETTER !



they just have not learnt how to SELL anything well in my opinion ! they CANT be sales people for sure to my mind seeing how they put ideas accross !



you will get ? WHIPLASHED here ! told you are SELFISH ! an IDIOT ! UNWORTHY TO OWN A DOG ! that your dog will KILL SOMEONE even one day !

all kinds of stuff dramatic hostile aggressive like that..

at the end of the day...hard as it is and even if as you sound reasonable to me...even if you try not to LASH BACK in THEIR WAYS and METHODS ...it will not stop.

so ? just do a FINGERS UP to them and keep to your views. you can try explaing such people your views but it is a WASTE OF TIME ! ignore them i do after a couple of wasted hours here...i really should NOTE DOWN THEIR NAMES as i forget names so end up again in the same style discussions and only then think to my slow thinking self...uh oh i think this is the SAME GANG on at me again !!! 

ps i LOVE the dog btw !!!! looks lovely to me...beauty is in the eyes of the beholder i just replied to someone saying that about my dogs on youtube...i dont excpect all to see the same way


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

it's amazing to me that when ppl get defensive, one of the things they find imperative is that anyone
who dares to offer an opinion MUST have lived-with the particular breed, to have a "valid" opinion.

Let's face it, no one person will ever have the opp to Live With all approx 600 breeds & landraces 
of dogs, on the globe - that's insane. However, there are [luckily] types of breeds, which share a set
of characters that include some basic behaviors, as well as appearance & often size - a herding type, 
a gundog type, a terrierrrist, & so on. Thus we don't have to 'live with' every breed to have some grasp 
of their individual behavior-profile, activity levels indoors & out, reactivity, tolerance of strangers, etc.

LGDs - livestock-guardian dogs - have a very problematic built-in suite of behaviors.
i've never lived with or owned a C-O; i doubt very much i ever will. However, i have trained several 
breeds of LGDs, & several individuals within those breeds - Kuvaszok, Pyrs, Tibbies, an Akbash, 
a Komondor... i've met many LGDs, most of them Pyrs, kept as pets - HOWEVER they often had 
the usual problematic behaviors to be expected in pet-homes: nocturnal barking, nite-patrols, 
cornering visitors, etc. Most of the working-LGDs i've met utterly ignored strangers, so long as the 
stranger was met by a family member - if they entered the property unescorted, they were at risk, 
& might be cornered, pinned, or bitten.

there's ONE working-LGD that i know of, a Pyr bitch, who lets herself out of the fence & goes walkabout 
when she wants a cool afternoon & a bath; she goes to the local groomer's, where they know her well, 
lies in the AC in an open bed, & then gets a brush & shower without soap - her owner gets a phone-call
when she arrives, so that they know where the dog is; her fellow-dogs mind the stock while she's off.
When she's ready for pick-up, they phone the owner, who collects her. This is in a rural area & small town;
it's not behavior that could be tolerated IMO in any sizable town with lots of traffic, etc. 
She's a matron & unusually tolerant of strangers / non-family -- when she's walkabout, she's all 
business & goes direct to her destination.

if their young M did the same thing, the local ACO would pick him up with a control-stick. :001_unsure:
he's not trustworthy around non-family, period.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There was someone on another forum had three pyrs as pets they've ended up with a goat farm now and the dogs are out with the flock. They were miserable as pets even in a country setting once they got the goats and they were doing the job they were bred for they were much happier. All of these breeds are specialist dogs and you have to ensure you have the right environment for one. I would love a komondor one day realistically I'll probably never own one between the need to live in the country and grooming.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I would love a Komondor one day - realistically, I'll probably never own one between the need
> to live in the country, and grooming.


U can simplify the coat-care by keeping the cords short - upholstery-fringe is quite a nice look, 
& a 2 to 3-inch coat is pretty easy to maintain; like a corded Poodle.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> :lol: She already had a fully grown newfie when the puppy came home. Did she need to research the breed all over again?
> 
> Good luck in your stupid venture, you are obviously too arrogant and ignorant to be deterred from such a silly idea, perhaps instead of throwing insults you should first look at how hypocritical it sounds for you of all people to be throwing them. Glass houses and all that. While doing your research I hope you came across rescues or people willing to take on your dog should it maul you or outgrow your expectations.


Ay ay, pubs have turned out then.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Zundap said:


> Ay ay, pubs have turned out then.


 well done !!! 

i just came off btw answering your latest insulter that from her own admissions on another post about not apologising if that persons dogs BARK at people due to being too busy dealing with them....seems that person has yes OUTTA CONTROL DOGS !!

#166 (permalink) Today, 03:33 PM 
Zundap 
Pet Forums Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 26

Re: oops

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoolf 
She already had a fully grown newfie when the puppy came home. Did she need to research the breed all over again?

Good luck in your stupid venture, you are obviously too arrogant and ignorant to be deterred from such a silly idea,

....................

good luck in your stupid venture...

not meant and a nasty stupid response to make. not POSTIIVE at all !

oooh lala YOU are arrogant this phoolf says !!! well excuse me if i see ENORMOUS arrogance in ? PHOOLF !!!

phew ! phooolf ! GET A GRIP ! your ANGER is very obvious even if you dont use capitals  i use capitals to STRESS WORDS ! and LAUGH !


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> well done !!!
> 
> i just came off btw answering your latest insulter that from her own admissions on another post about not apologising if that persons dogs BARK at people due to being too busy dealing with them....seems that person has yes OUTTA CONTROL DOGS !!
> 
> ...


Sadly your use of capitals often stresses others and prevents any laughter  But fill yer boots

As for out of control dogs, are you not the one smacking and whipping your own poor dogs? What a sad shame.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> ahh...i think you are a NEWBIE ? if so...you are getting a sight of yes being LECTURED to !!! i must tell you now in case this is your FIRST TIME like sex but less enjoyable...that this is unfortunately COMMON on this and many forums.
> 
> yes there are people out there who think due to their experiences they can TELL you they KNOW BETTER !
> 
> ...


Some good advice at last, thanks FEJA JUODAS, I,ll nip off and look for a friendly pet forum. Your black shepherds are absolutely stunning by the way.

And now to the smart ass's - *Kindly go forth and multiply.*


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

From what I understand from your posts so far Zundap you live in a suburban environment with a house and garden, and you primarily like the dog because of the way it looks and you'd like a dog to keep you company and go for long walks in the hills? - hope I've got that right so far!

I will say for 100% certain this is totally the wrong breed of dog for you fullstop!!!!

I have an ovcharka called Bear who is nearly 2, I bought him as I live on a remote farm with livestock and due to security issues we got him to guard us and the farm. He has lived outside since he was about 6 months old onwards - he did not like living indoors and actually broke the window trying to get the postman who came up the yard!! He didn't like the heat indoors either even though we have no heating he likes to sit in the yard rain or shine or patrol the fields looking for strangers or anything he regards as a threat! Which means anything that moves on the other side of the fence including strange livestock, luckily we have 6ft fencing!! He has access to 12 acres 24/7 as I think he'd be increadbly destructive if he was kept confined be it house or garden.

He is not nor ever will be a pet - he doesn't 'keep you comapny' - which is what you are after, he will sit on my feet when he's just checking we're OK and makes a fuss before going on patrol again, he spends alot of the night barking at alsorts - so not a dog if you have neighbors as his bark is very loud!
I have other dogs too - ridgebacks, a mastiff mix and 2 terriers, and we've had other breeds in the past including rotties etc so are well used to bigger dogs - this dog is TOTALLY different from your average domestic breed, the breed traits are very strong in them - ours started sitting on our landing where he can watch over the yard at 12 weeks - that is ALL he wants to do, ghe's not intrested in playing that much or going on walks at all, in fact he's pretty lazy and would rather sit and watch than walk anywhere.

Trianing wise he is not food motivated nor is he praise motivated - he couldn't care less what tricks the other dogs do or how much you say good boy - all he wants to do is his job! Recall took me ages and even now he can be deaf at will!! So def not the sort of dog who wants to go on lovely country walks!! He is the sort that will answer back if told off, if he doesn't want to do something you'll certainly know about it, he will lumber off growling to himself!! He will sit if he wants to and he might lie down if he thinks it's worth his while, I wouldn't want him to meet strange dogs if off the lead on a walk - the chances are he'd eat it!! He's fine with mine most of the time, the occasional fight does happen, one of my ridgies tried to take his biscuits Bear merely snapped at him - it only cost £180 to stitch the ridgeback back together - he won't do it again though! - The ridgie is fine by the way just felt sorry for himself for a bit and has 2 small scars to show for it! He also doesn't fight like any other breeds I've come across - most arguements domestic dogs go for ears or legs etc and are more than happy to back down - Bear goes for the throat or the stomach and will always have the last say! He loves my 2 little terriers and plays with them alot as they are the same sort of age, but he did crack one of my little JRT ribs by accident as he is just so big he went head over heels and landed on her!

They are not a breed for your average owner and they are not what I would consider a pet! I would never have even considered getting one if I did not live somewhere remote where he had lots of land to wander at will so he can do what he's been bred to do! I would never consider breeding them either as there are only so many suitable homes for them in the UK - so not something I would even consider! Bears nuts are coming off next month!

People wise Bear is fine if I introduce him to anyone, he knows all the delivery men and welcomes them in no problem, I would not want to be a stranger and come on the farm at night though! Children - he's fine with them but like any dog I wouldn't trust him with them, mainly because of his size.

This is Bear, last october so still a pup at just over a year old and still growing, with my mastiff mix Ted who is about the size of a rottie:








In december with his winter coat coming through:








If I were you I'd stick to a rottie or a lab or something that is more suited to a domestic life and is willing to please!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> *You* can make *any* dog how you want it; that is my view -
> dogs become like their owners, the saying goes.
> i am not much into BREEDISM myself i add.


Since breeds do vary in behavior, activity-level, reactivity, stranger-tolerance, etc, 
i think it's much easier to choose a breed that fits the function, vs try to jam a breed into any hole;

a Terrier-pup in a home with 2 seniors past 70-YO is a very active, reactive, vocal breed, plus or rather
minus, prone to be snappy with visitors; is that a good fit? Even if they are currently up to the work of 
exercising the pup & socializing her / him, what about 10-years later?... the dog will still be an active, 
zippy dog, & they will be in their 80s.

recognizing that breeds vary isn't "breedism" - IMO ignoring the differences between breeds is not good,
as their characteristics are part & parcel of their fitting [or not] their home & family.


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## Zundap (Mar 28, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Sadly your use of capitals often stresses others and prevents any laughter  But fill yer boots
> 
> As for out of control dogs, are you not the one smacking and whipping your own poor dogs? What a sad shame.


Mmm, just another anal ventriloquist, talking out of their ass.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

AlexArt said:


> He is not nor ever will be a pet - he doesn't 'keep you company' - which is what you are after;
> he'll sit on my feet [to check] we're OK, & makes a fuss before going on patrol again, he spends
> a lot of the night barking at all sorts... not a [breed for] neighbors, as his bark is very loud!
> 
> ...


re the "turfy" aspect, once they hit early-puberty - about 3 to 4-MO -- most LGDs become less & less 
interested in leaving their home-turf. Even vet-visits can become very difficult; one woman i know, 
a fellow-trainer, has an Anatolian who is seen by her vet only at her ranch-home; he refused to get 
into the car once he hit 7-MO, & was willing to back it up with teeth. He was already over 100#.
If they wanted to take him off the property, they'd have to trank him. OTOH, he'll go thru the fence 
or over it, to pursue coyote & other wildlife. He doesn't harass passing riders on horseback, tho.

As her vet is both an equine & small-animal vet, the vet sees the dog on site. How the average pet-owner 
would deal with that, i'm not sure; in urban areas, getting a vet to make house-calls is hard.

BTW he's the same dog who at between 6 & 9-MO went for an intruder in broad daylight, 
a man who drove into their yard, parked, & entered the stables. He came toward her in a 
threatening manner, without speaking, & the dog hurtled a stall-gate & pursued him into his truck, 
& the truck down the drive. They never ID'd the fella, & she didn't get the plates on the truck.
SHE DID NOT cue that behavior; guardian breeds are willing to make their own decisions, 
while watchdogs sound an alarm & wait for backup or directions.

if U don't socialize Ur guard-breed well as a pup, during that key 8-WO to 12-WO window, they 
*will* be extremely suspicious & paranoid about strangers; the risk of a bite is greatly increased.
Getting sued or being charged is a shock - but it happens. The dog is often euthed.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm so glad Bear likes the car and will happily get in, we have a VW beetle, it's so funny seeing this giant furball squished in the back looking out the window - we get some very odd looks!! But there's no way I could lift him in if he didn't want to!! My vet is also a farm vet so could if needs be treat him on farm!!! If anything goes wrong with these big dogs they are not cheap to treat as they need such a big dose of anything compared to your normal dog, I hate to think how much getting his nuts off will be!!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Nagini said:


> theres a few breeders in the UK and a couple of owners on here as far as i know - bumping the thread for you in the hope they see it.


:dita: this is fingers up ! i like this green grinning icon !

now i went looking on kennel club guess you did that same and didnt find any

rare breed...

i will look on french side easier i add...if France is ok with you...of course country of origin is a long way off !

heres what a dog site says about the breed...i like the honesty and advice as to how to train...make sure you let the dog know WHO IS BOSS or words to that effect...just like it says on UK sheepdog expert sites i add...

now if this is not the latest THEORY about dogs like wolves and goats having ALPHAS and RANK ORDERS and i add that IS a big issue with some modern theorists here on this forum...that causes GREAT displeasure ! so ? i suggest those saying the PACK and LEADERSHIP by HUMAN needs of this particular breed is probably the main reason many are AGAINST you having one ! they think it is not manageable ! under different coodgey coo methods only of training which to my  i learnt yesterday or day before i forget exactly which it is long ago now..that SAYING NO to a dog is a NONO !!

well GOOD LUCK to you if you never teach your dog the word NO !!! 

is all i can add as my view on that ! not asking you yours ! you do as you please ! as i do ! as all should so long as others are not at risk ! but that goes for any dog owner to me...i do not accept being dictated to anymore than you do...I AM NOT A DOG ! some of those advocating never using negative words to DOGS should try applying that to ? HUMANS ! 

OSS ! for sure i think that is applicable to ALL dogs especially BIG dogs.

Caucasian Shepherd Dog, Caucasian Ovcharka Information and Pictures

The Caucasian Shepherd's original purpose was to protect livestock. The typical Caucasian Ovtcharka is assertive, strong-willed and courageous. Unless properly socialized and trained, the Caucasian Shepherd may exhibit ferocious and unmanageable tendencies. It is very brave, alert, strong and hardy. It does not accept people it does not know and it has a powerful urge to defend. Everything and everyone who belongs to the family, including children, cats, other dogs, etc., will be regarded by this dog as part of "its" family and will be respected and protected. This dog should not be left alone with children, because if play becomes too rough, the Caucasian Ovtcharka my feel the need to protect your child, and may do it extensively. It has no time for strangers, but it will greet family friends warmly. It can be rather dominant toward other dogs it does not know. Some German fanciers employ the dogs as foremost guardians and deterrents. This is not a dog for everyone. *It requires an owner who knows how to display strong leadership *and who is willing to spend a lot of time socializing and training. *The objective in training this dog is to achieve pack leader status. It is a natural instinct for a dog to have an order in its pack. When we humans live with dogs, we become their pack. The entire pack cooperates under a single leader. Lines are clearly defined and rules are set. Because a dog communicates his displeasure with growling and eventually biting, all other humans MUST be higher up in the order than the dog. The humans must be the ones making the decisions, not the dogs. *That is the only way your relationship with your dog can be a complete


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> re the "turfy" aspect, once they hit early-puberty - about 3 to 4-MO -- most LGDs become less & less
> interested in leaving their home-turf. Even vet-visits can become very difficult; one woman i know,
> a fellow-trainer, has an Anatolian who is seen by her vet only at her ranch-home; he refused to get
> into the car once he hit 7-MO, & was willing to back it up with teeth. He was already over 100#.
> ...


I expect he had read some book which told him that to be seen as a pack leader he must ignore the dog!

In the UK, vets will do almost anything if you pay them for it. I have had to have vets out for Joshua because he collapsed and I couldn't lift him - it took four of them with a stretcher. I don't know what I would do with a vet that refused to come out.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

eerrrr i just noticed word BANNED against this Ovcharka poster 

is there any point in posting here anymore then ? had a row offline or something ? some strong words and criticisms were being thrown at this Ovcharka i just glanced at them not wanting to get stuck into them...

anyway back to the subject IF this Ovcharka poster is still around able to reply or anything...

Eleveurs Berger du Caucase,Ovtcharka du Caucase,Kavkazkaa Ovtcharka Chien.com

i said i would find some FRANCE breeders.

here is one list....there are more...

now if you ovcharka poster excuse me i foget names easily...if you want me to help because you dont understand FRENCH i can do that for you.

go to my website for my email...

ELEVAGE means BREEDER

ELEVEUR means BREEDER also more the person

CHIENS means dogs

chien is dog

quelle VIE de CHIEN !

is a French expression....meaning WHAT A DOGS LIFE ! 
are you IN THE DOGHOUSE ? to use an English expression ?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello Feja


They have probably been banned for directly insulting members or perhaps something else we don't know about- I think if they get reported for abuse, it'll get looked into.

Sometimes people get banned as a short break, like a warning to calm down.

Sometimes they get permanently banned.

It's not really for us to know what's going on behind the scenes- 

There's a difference between having a heated debate / bringing up what others have said and being directly insulting.
Most people don't act like that in public so why should it be deemed acceptable online.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Hello Feja
> 
> They have probably been banned for directly insulting members or perhaps something else we don't know about- I think if they get reported for abuse, it'll get looked into.
> 
> ...


And with those words of wisdom I am going to close this thread.


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