# Cross Breeding Dogs



## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Ok recently there has been alot of heated debate about cross breeding of dogs. What are your views on this topic? what are the rights and wrongs?
Voice your opinions.. listen to others.. we can all learn something from eachother but most importantly respect eachothers views...

I dont know a great deal about this subject!! I've owned a couple of cross breeds without problems.. have I been lucky? do some breeds cross better than others? or do cross make perfectly healthy pets? Educate me...

so come one.. cross breeding... discuss!!!!


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

i breed bulldogs and wouldnt personally cross breed them but know a lot of people with cross breeds, especially staffies and they are great dogs


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

cross breeds often have less health issues as the animals aren't closely related to each other


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

its all the rage at the mo cross breeding dogs, god knows why 
take the lab x poodle started by disabled charities for there nature, 
you get it just as well nature in pedigree dogs,
ok they done it for a reason, 
but you look on sites and see so meny dogs being crossed with something other
i have had both crossed and pedigree's. 
never had any trouble with any
although ped's can have problems and need the checks before breeding.

although i dont think you should breed crosses as so meny in rescue
but if by accident ok cant be helped


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Fade to Grey said:


> cross breeds often have less health issues as the animals aren't closely related to each other


I thought this was the case too... but I've since heard someone say it's the other way round?? what is the facts on this?

It seems to be quite trendy to have crosses these days eg - cockapoo, Labradoodle etc.. do these dogs have problems?

Is it ok to cross similar breeds such as two types of bull breed etc?


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

my family have had a mix of both cross breeds and pure breeds of good pedigree with all health checks and have had more health problems with the kc dogs than the cross breeds. I agree that there is a fad of charging very high prices for these dogs whitch should be stoped. There is a place in this world for all types of dogs as long as people do not breed ANY dogs that have health isues. I also firmly believe that any dog not intended for breeding should be neutered or spayed to prevent any unwanted pups whether they are cross bred or pure breeds, this in itself would help a *little* with the over population of dogs.

A friend of mine owned two cross bred dogs, he did breed from them once but only when there was many people he knew who wanted a pup and asked him if he would consider having a litter as his dogs had such a good nature, he had his dogs health checked and decided to go ahed with mating them.

All pups had homes before they were born as do many pedigree pups, and both adult dogs were spayed/neutered after, so no further litters, to me this was a well thought about mating and all pups went to good homes.

I am not knocking pure breeds as I have a 10 year old chihuahua and used to own a pedigree german shepherd who passed away 2 years ago at 11 years old, as long as it is done in the right way for the better of the breed and for temperament etc and not for money. Many breeders love their animals and do right thing by them and these are the people who should be breeding.


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I also agree that people who do not want a specific breed of dog should firstly go to rescues to get a dog as there are thousands needing homes.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Cross breeding imo is wrong,the rescues are full to bursting point not just through cross breeding but also irresponsible thoughless breeding.

Cross breeds are still likely to have inhereited health issues as there are no dogs/breeds that don't have genetic conditions.

In the present climate it is in my opinion dangerous to cross the bull breeds,you could end up with a "Type" looking dog,which could be seized under the DDA.
Breeders who do cross breed are Irresponsible,it indicates to me they very rarely think of the health & welfare of the dogs & are usually only interested in the money such a litter will bring.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

vixenelite said:


> I also agree that people who do not want a specific breed of dog should firstly go to rescues to get a dog as there are thousands needing homes.


i totally 2nd that. plenty of dogs with plenty of love to give


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

bullyb said:


> i totally 2nd that. plenty of dogs with plenty of love to give


The trouble with rescues is they have stupid rules in place which can sometimes make it difficult,so people choose to go to a Breeder.Alot of rescues can also have problems.


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> The trouble with rescues is they have stupid rules in place which can sometimes make it difficult,so people choose to go to a Breeder.Alot of rescues can also have problems.


I agree there are many rules which prevent good people from rehoming dogs and yes some rescue dogs do have problems but they deserve a chance and for those people who do not want a particular breed of of dog this is a good option for them


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> The trouble with rescues is they have stupid rules in place which can sometimes make it difficult,so people choose to go to a Breeder.Alot of rescues can also have problems.


yes thats true...


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

I must admit I show my dogs so on no account would have them neutered.
If my dog had, had anything other than a clear result,then yes he would have been castrated & his showing career would have been over.

My bitch will be spayed at a later date,after I've bred from her.

There is no excuse for accidental litters either,if you have a dog & bitch you keep them apart at all times during her season,or get them neutered.


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I totaly agree there is no reason for accidental litters, I realise if you have a show dog neutering him is not an option otherwise its the best way if you do not intend breeding


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Well I think by now that you all know my views on this subject. 
Reputable breeders will health test before thinking of breeding. There are different tests done for each breed. I dont agree with mixed breeding for many reasons, I agree with spaying of pets to prevent breeding and think that breeders should insist upon this in an endorsement when selling puppies on - if the puppy is sold as a pet then why breed from it? I do know some who do this and I fully agree with it - if the puppy buyer is a good person they will also agree why its best. Breeding should only be done for the betterment of that breed - the KC have a breed standard for each breed that should be followed when planning breedings. Mix breeding of breeds very close together as Majik has stated in my mind is dangerous - breeding 2 kinds of bull breeds - mastiff breeds etc etc is a recipe for disaster - the temperament of a dog is paramount - I dont agree with pedigree dogs being bred from if they have aggresion problems either - I do agree that owners play a huge role in the way a dog turns out but deliberatly breeding from 2 breeds of dog that have 2 very different temperaments could lead to the problems later in life. We all know that all breeds have a temperament trait and just putting 2 breeds together due to both breeds having a great side to them could also lead to all thats bad in each breed coming out in them too..
There is also the fashion side of the argument - breeding for the money side of things - we have many established breeds already why is there a need to come up with a new breed of dog?
Now to the rescue side of things - I know there is a breed specific rescue for most breeds and thats great as at least the breed is with experienced people who can find the correct family for the dogs, but most rescue centres are over run with cross breeds - all kinds of mixes - they may be cute to look at but their parents havent been health tested - the 2 temprements having been taken into account, so guess work is the only way to know what temperament the dog will have. The cost of some of the mixed breeds sometimes outweigh the price of a pedigree dog but a mongral is a mongral in my eyes - so why charge high prices for certain mixes?
Health issues - yes it could be argued that some mix breeds are healthier than a pedigree dog but only some mixes &#8211; what if a breeding took place with 2 breeds who have major health issues???? - by breeding mix's you do leave yourself open to very undesirable traits - why do that when breeds have their own unique breed character? Cross breeding is inconsistant in looks and temp yet reputable breeders are breeding from dogs that have taken years and years to get as close to perfect as they can - they know the breed character traits etc.
Bring money into this and you get the money grabbers&#8211; they don&#8217;t give a stuff about health or quality &#8211; yes some breeders of pedigree dogs can be the same but most are ethical in the way they breed and the bad types of people are often outted by the people in the same breed.
As for accidental litters &#8211; why was the bitch not taken to the vet?? There is an injection to abort the litter and they can spey at the same time too&#8230;&#8230;not always the case if you didn&#8217;t realize the mating had taken place which in itself is irresponsible &#8211; I have an entire male here and not once has he been given the chance to mate with any of my girls &#8211; all apart from my old staffy cross are shown hence them not being speyed etc&#8230;.its irresponsible ownership if accidental.
Well I have said enough in this post


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

on the odd occasion where peeps have phoned where the young bitch has escaped and mated with a dog and does happen if they want to get out they will 
or a dog has got into the garden,

told them to get them up the vet as you can get a like morning after pill for dogs but in injection form.
this they have at the end of a season, vets dont like doing it but it does work. 

but yes there are far to many crosses and why on earth would anyone want to put 2 different pedigree together to get cross and charge the same as pedigree dogs

well theres fools out there that sadly pay it 
so whos the fool the cross breeding person or the person who buys them??
if they didnt buy them then there wouldnt be a market for them


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Debbie said:


> Well I think by now that you all know my views on this subject.
> Reputable breeders will health test before thinking of breeding. There are different tests done for each breed. I dont agree with mixed breeding for many reasons, I agree with spaying of pets to prevent breeding and think that breeders should insist upon this in an endorsement when selling puppies on - if the puppy is sold as a pet then why breed from it? I do know some who do this and I fully agree with it - if the puppy buyer is a good person they will also agree why its best. Breeding should only be done for the betterment of that breed - the KC have a breed standard for each breed that should be followed when planning breedings. Mix breeding of breeds very close together as Majik has stated in my mind is dangerous - breeding 2 kinds of bull breeds - mastiff breeds etc etc is a recipe for disaster - the temperament of a dog is paramount - I dont agree with pedigree dogs being bred from if they have aggresion problems either - I do agree that owners play a huge role in the way a dog turns out but deliberatly breeding from 2 breeds of dog that have 2 very different temperaments could lead to the problems later in life. We all know that all breeds have a temperament trait and just putting 2 breeds together due to both breeds having a great side to them could also lead to all thats bad in each breed coming out in them too..
> There is also the fashion side of the argument - breeding for the money side of things - we have many established breeds already why is there a need to come up with a new breed of dog?
> Now to the rescue side of things - I know there is a breed specific rescue for most breeds and thats great as at least the breed is with experienced people who can find the correct family for the dogs, but most rescue centres are over run with cross breeds - all kinds of mixes - they may be cute to look at but their parents havent been health tested - the 2 temprements having been taken into account, so guess work is the only way to know what temperament the dog will have. The cost of some of the mixed breeds sometimes outweigh the price of a pedigree dog but a mongral is a mongral in my eyes - so why charge high prices for certain mixes?
> ...


Excellent Post!!!


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

I think cross breed dogs are brilliant! They are not inbred like most kc registered ones and tend to live longer.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

carol said:


> on the odd occasion where peeps have phoned where the young bitch has escaped and mated with a dog and does happen if they want to get out they will
> or a dog has got into the garden,


In my opinion that is irresponsible ownership,you don't leave an in season bitch alone at any time.No excuses.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

You cannot state "they" there are so many breeds involved in cross breeds - sometimes 2 sometimes bloomin 10 - yes you can be lucky and get a cross breed that suffers no health problems and lives longer but its a game of russian roulette....or like picking a ticket out of a tombolla - you really dont know what you are getting and it scares me just what bad traits of a cross breed will come out ...
Thankyou Sallyanne - I really am trying to get the point across with valid points


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

thats what i tell them 

heres a one was going out with my dogs and sprinkle my male took off called him and he didnt want to come back but did, anyway he took off again and this time went after him a bitch in full season lose with owner in woods, VET told him will be ok to take her out after 2 weeks, anyway i put the person straight about season's 
he did put her straight on the lead and got her straight home 

these are some of the silly questions i get asked about and what should i do 
i wish people would do some fact finding when they are thinking about getting a dog
but they dont so stupid things like this happens


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## georges mummy (Nov 24, 2007)

plumo72 said:


> I think cross breed dogs are brilliant! They are not inbred like most kc registered ones and tend to live longer.


but does anyone want to take the chance of having a cross breed that noone know the linage of? ie both parents could have nasty aggression,
i do own a cross breed myself so i am not saying that i disagree with owning them, but i knew her parents, and i own her because the previous owner was misstreating her. and as someone else said there are hundreds in shelters, personally i wouldnt get one from a shelter as i see it as too much risk round my kids.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

I have my old staffy from my local rescue who I help out with - we visited many times taking our other dog for visits too - taking them out for walks etc together - let my daughter meet her a few times too - then took the decision to bring her home - shes been a lovely pet and is part of the family being mother hen to all my other animals - she ended up in rescue due to being pupped and pupped and thrown out on the streets when no longer needed - I just fell for her and thankfully it was the right decision to make. With children you can never make a harsh decision when choosing the right dog to be part of your family. Its so heartbreaking to see so many of them sat waiting for a new loving home - but totally understand why some people cannot choose to re home one


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm getting a cross-breed GSD X Border Collie next year, My husband got one this year, it was a set up mating to produce a dog for the sport we take part in, which is a mixture of tracking, searching, agility and obedience, and when you get to a certain level patrol dog work. Both parents are excellent temperament, health and hip scored, and the collie eye tested. All pups are already spoken for from the litter. The pups from the last litter have outstandingly good temperament and work ethic. Why cross the dogs, BC do very well in competition but can be a little small for patrol dog work, and GSD's do not have a long enough working life, for the thousands of hours that go into training them.I currently work a bc, but am looking forward to getting a larger and more powerful dog.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

vixenelite said:


> I also agree that people who do not want a specific breed of dog should firstly go to rescues to get a dog as there are thousands needing homes.


a rescue dog isn't for everyone!.. I have small children and you can not be sure what a rescue dogs background is... If my kids were a little bit older I would have definately got a rescue dog but at the age they're at I just couldn't risk it!


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm not suggesting it is right for everyone but is a valid option to some people, nothing will suit everyone and an individuals situation will always determin the course and choice they will take.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

Magik said:


> a rescue dog isn't for everyone!.. I have small children and you can not be sure what a rescue dogs background is... If my kids were a little bit older I would have definately got a rescue dog but at the age they're at I just couldn't risk it!


i agree with that. much as i agree that the rescue centres are doing a great job, do you really know the background of the dog your getting? personally i would be a bit reluctant but im sure it does suit lots of other people


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

bullyb said:


> i agree with that. much as i agree that the rescue centres are doing a great job, do you really know the background of the dog your getting? personally i would be a bit reluctant but im sure it does suit lots of other people


I would get a rescue do without a doubt if I didn't have kids!! Some really nice dogs in the rescue centres!!


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## MrsNik (Dec 5, 2007)

I own an Australian Kelpie and a Border Collie and it has already been said by people I speak to on another forum that Kelpie xCollies make fantastic working or agility dogs. Of course I made the mistake of telling my husband this who is now constantly looking at our dogs going "wouldnt they make cute puppies when they are old enough".....Answer to that dear...yes they would...but they arent going to lol.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Well said MrsNik well said


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## MrsNik (Dec 5, 2007)

I thank you lol.


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## Tobymum (Dec 2, 2007)

Just to say this craze for cross breeds is well out of hand. Lots of puppy farmers in Wales are now just breeding all sorts of small crosses and asking silly prices for them.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

i currently have a first cross litter ,which was deliberate as i wanted 1 for myself and i have had no problem selling the rest ,both parents are kc reg and the father had the relivant health test


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

terriermaid said:


> i currently have a first cross litter ,which was deliberate as i wanted 1 for myself and i have had no problem selling the rest ,both parents are kc reg and the father had the relivant health test


Did the Dam have the required tests for her breed?
Both Parents of this litter can be KC Reg but you can't register the litter with them,(only on the activity register)
I don't see the point in having two breeds that are KC Reg for someone to deliberatly cross breed them.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

there is no relievant health test for the mother else she would of had them ,but i personally know her breeding for at least 4 generations, im not interested in registrations i want a pup for racing ,if the pup qualified for scruffs or ykc at crufts then i would have to put her on the activity register


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

terriermaid said:


> there is no relievant health test for the mother else she would of had them ,but i personally know her breeding for at least 4 generations, im not interested in registrations i want a pup for racing ,if the pup qualified for scruffs or ykc at crufts then i would have to put her on the activity register


What were the two breeds if you don't mind me asking?


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

whippet /bedlington ,which actually is a old type cross ,lol not a new designer cross


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

lol your giving me ideas now ,im thinking about putting her on the register and getting into junior handling ,i think southern counties and wales have a cross breed class (could be a laugh)


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

my daughter done that untill she was to old for it. oh you get right ones in the ring get the right hump if they dont win or the parents have a moan at the poor child.


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## Tobymum (Dec 2, 2007)

I have Beddy cross whippet,she was bred by rotten Irish tinkers and dumped when they realised she was useless at 5 weeks old. She has elongated soft palette which means she gets out of breath very easily,also she has mobility problems.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

yes my daughter used to do it ,untill she grew out of it ,but ive got a friends daughter whos still really kean


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2007)

ive got 3 cross breeds and there a fab the oldest has a few health problems but she was a sickly pup too, the other 2 have only had to go to the vets for vaccaines and neuatering, when i was younger i had a pedigree jack russell never again i tell you, he was the nastiest thing ever we couldn't rehome with either and we has to PTS before his first birthday.

Lucy my eldest was a accident breeding
Tara and Kaiser are line breed Irish staffs which is english bull terrier x staffordshire bull terrier


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## kimlovesbarney (Dec 12, 2007)

Ive got 2 crossbreeds 1s a long haired daxie cross bischon, and 1s a mini daxie cross yorkie. Ive also fostered a dobe, ridgeback n a mastiff., theyve all found new homes My lillte bischon cross ive had for 15months and bought him off a breeder after she cudnt find another bischon to mate with. And as much as i love him hes got alot of the worst charchteristics of the dogs. he hates other dogs, people that he doesnt know, kids. he will go for other dogs, joggers, bikes. ive seen a behaviourist and hes baffled. The other cross is brill but he is only 4months. The pure breeds i rescued had brilliant temperments. So you can never tell. and i no that there alot of dogs in rescue centres, but when i have been the dogs are manily gsd, rotties, mastiffs and staffies so you cant blame breeding crosses on this. i think all breeders should have a waiting list for the pups b4 they breed!
best wishes kim


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## satincollie (Nov 20, 2007)

he he he well I have 6 pedigrees and they have only been to the vets for their vacines or in the case of two of the girlies spaying so pedigree doesnt always mean unhealthy. The company that does the dna tests for inherited eye conditions do actually have a dna test for an eye condition in Labradoodles so there goes the theory that crossbreeds don't get inherited conditions they can and do.
Crossbreeds at inflated prices are a puppy farmers dream they usually put a breed that has small litters and or may have trouble whelping and are popular with a breed that doesnt have the same issues give it a ditsy name and hey presto they get larger litters give less care and make more money into the bargin.


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## g-dog 005 (Dec 9, 2007)

Hi we cross or well when it is two kinds of bulldog it is an outcross. Because with Alapahas there just is not enough blood out there . Plus in Canada we need a bigger dog because you can get 3 feet of snow in 1 night.So we started a new blood line. And our ABBA dogs we keep to that standard . The thing with outcrossing is a lot of people get mad at you. I feel this is because they run into a lot of problems with hips and so on. With outcrossing you can fix all your problems and have a better dog for people.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2007)

g-dog 005 said:


> ..... I feel this is because they run into a lot of problems with hips and so on. With outcrossing you can fix all your problems and have a better dog for people.


Outcrossing does not get rid of any problem in your line, all it does is bury it until a later date when the pups carrying those problem genes are mated to others also carrying those genes, it will only solve the problem, maybe in the first cross depending on whether the outcross does not also carry the same problems.

All breeds can have HD therefore any cross without testing and selection will have just as much chance of producing this problem.

Some eye conditions are found to be the same in several breeds. some types of PRA are shared by several breeds (I think Poodles and Labs have the same kind) so crossing these will not solve anything.

Outcrossing can also introduce problems from the outcross breed that previously did not exist in the other breed and when the descendants are mated together the chances are that problems from both breeds may be carried, and come together in a pup.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2007)

Its mad the way the world works now a days.

i mean, years ago a pedigree was two of the same breed of dogs mated together ect ect ect.

A mongrel was 2 dogs of different breeds and known as a mutt, half chat and mongrel or other and was given away free or sold very cheap.

Now people are taking the pee by sticking 2 different dogs together, giving them a fancy name and selling them at silly prices, Now theres ever a thing  At the end of the day i truly believe the people that are buying these dogs are out of their mind, and also encouraging more and more people to breed what is actually a mongrel, which we have plenty of in shelters to pick from.
Maybe these silly people buying these Mongrels should go of to a shelter and have a look, who knows, there might well be one standing there waiting for a home looking exactly like the breed in the paper selling for 5 to £600


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

i used to have cross breed years ago he was such a lovely learnt everything straight up
and was great when i had my first child he would just sit there waiting for him to wake up and then tell me when he was awake.
followed my boy everywhere and then my girl too checking on them.
the funny thing was my sister children he didnt have time for never took no notice of them just mine but then was my dog.
and still miss him.
i


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2007)

Awww bless 

The only mongrel i owned for a short amount of time was a pitbull cross doberman, He was so cute and lovely, i got him of someone ill treating him and offering him out in a pub to anyone, He was so skinny and hungrey, i flew up to him and said i'll have him, i knew i could'nt keep the dog because of where i was living at the time but i also knew if i took him on i'ld make sure he goes to someone who would treat him properly and keep him, which is more then i can say for the person i got him of, i made sure He went to a freind of mine who adored him.

Mongrels can make lovely pets, just as good as anydog, but why do people breed more and more of them when there are so many different sorts with different needs to suit homes already  , i really cannot see the point of perposely breeding them.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

I have also owned a few cross breeds and have always been lucky - but breeding them and charging high prices is silly - what worries me is what breeds are being bred with what - the temperaments of both breeds dont always go together and can spell disaster!!!! Both temperament wise and health wise.....


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## jo-ann (Nov 2, 2007)

i have 3 x breeds and 1 kc reg dogs and i am for it if it is done the right way 

not if it is just for fun 

dogs are breed with poodles and bedlinton becouse thay do not molt 

i have bedlinton x whippets


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

jo-ann said:


> i have 3 x breeds and 1 kc reg dogs and i am for it if it is done the right way
> 
> not if it is just for fun
> 
> ...


Your last statement shows how Little you understand genetics.

Breeding a non moulting breed to a moulting one will not guarantee you non moulting offspring (some will moult like tone parent and some not like the other).

If that is what you want get a non shedding breed bred for that trait, there are plenty available purebred with predictable characteristics and temperament, if bought from reputable breeders.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

dh.dti said:


> IMHO...
> 
> If it's an accident then so be it.
> I don't think cross breeding should be done intentionally.
> I certainly don't agree with the high prices some cross breeds are being advertised for.


i could'nt of put it any better myself  i agree darren.


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## Dennyboy (Jan 3, 2008)

Cross breeding is wrong if it is intentional.

My first dog was a lab x gsd and the most wonderful girl ever.she lived to 13 and had to be put to sleep after a accident.She came from a rescue.

There is so many dogs in Rescue without the need to add to fashion and design your own dog.

A friend of ours brought a Stafford x lab puppy,it had had 2 operations because the back end kept growing.All this before he was 14 months old.He was put to sleep at 16 months as he was in constant pain and couldn't walk.
What a life for this baby.
When the "breeders" were contacted about this they just said that none of the others had had problems and they were welcome to have another at half price(they had another 2 litters there)

Cross breeds should cost no more than £50.Money grabbers sell designer dogs.All dogs have a original purpose and there is rescues for the Xbreeds which will be much cheaper


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

i love bull terriers and staffs but dont think they look right crossed !


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

garryd said:


> i love bull terriers and staffs but dont think they look right crossed !


They call them the irish staff don't they?
bull terrier cross staffy is irish staff nowadayz.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> They call them the irish staff don't they?
> bull terrier cross staffy is irish staff nowadayz.


no i dont think thats right!? i think an irish staff is still a staff but with longer legs ! maybe i am wrong !? but thats what i allways thought ! sallyanne would know !


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

I was told by a bloke in Ireland who breeds Irish staffs that they have pit bull in them!?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

garryd said:


> no i dont think thats right!? i think an irish staff is still a staff but with longer legs ! maybe i am wrong !? but thats what i allways thought ! sallyanne would know !


An Irish Stafford is not a breed it's a breed type.It's not recognised by any Kennel Club.
Alot of these type dogs were seized under the DDA in merseyside as been Type.Owners had to go to court to prove that their dogs were not dangerous.
They are bred to fit the Original standard 1935,so are usually taller & leaner than the SBT.I believe that it was crossed at some point with the Bull Terrier.
They are no fitter or healthier than the SBT.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> An Irish Stafford is not a breed it's a breed type.It's not recognised by any Kennel Club.
> Alot of these type dogs were seized under the DDA in merseyside as been Type.Owners had to go to court to prove that their dogs were not dangerous.
> They are bred to fit the Original standard 1935,so are usually taller & leaner than the SBT.I believe that it was crossed at some point with the Bull Terrier.
> They are no fitter or healthier than the SBT.


so i was sort of right and wrong!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

garryd said:


> so i was sort of right and wrong!


LOL.

i think i can say the same aswell. 

there is a girl on my webste who has irish staffys, ill have to ask her what makes one.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

yeh Irish staff is pretty much a different name for Pittbull... these days people use this rather than Pittbull to avoid being detected although anyone in the know knows what they are, some peole also call pitbulls and American Staff although I would argue that they are a completely different breed.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Magik said:


> yeh Irish staff is pretty much a Pittbull... people use this rather than Pittbull to avoid being detected although anyone in the know knows what they are, some peole also call pitbulls and American Staff although I would argue that they are a completely different breed.


not working magik!?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

not til 10pm... just about to get ready... need to look nice for the gays!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Magik said:


> yeh Irish staff is pretty much a different name for Pittbull... these days people use this rather than Pittbull to avoid being detected although anyone in the know knows what they are, some peole also call pitbulls and American Staff although I would argue that they are a completely different breed.


This is where all the confusion comes in with the general public,anything over the standard height for a SBT and it's a Pitt/Irish Staff etc....
I believe these breeding these Irish Staffs are treading dangerous ground in the current climate with the DDA,why risk a dogs life?

The amount of times I've been told Tylers a Pitt ain't funny,someone even asked me if I knew his breeding.After nearly 20 yrs in the breed if I don't know a good well bred SBT from a Pitt I need shooting lol


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> This is where all the confusion comes in with the general public,anything over the standard height for a SBT and it's a Pitt/Irish Staff etc....
> I believe these breeding these Irish Staffs are treading dangerous ground in the current climate with the DDA,why risk a dogs life?
> 
> The amount of times I've been told Tylers a Pitt ain't funny,someone even asked me if I knew his breeding.After nearly 20 yrs in the breed if I don't know a good well bred SBT from a Pitt I need shooting lol


and then there's the American Staff which I think is a breed on it's own... different to the APBT... but was originally the same but named differently for registering reasons.. is this right sallyanne?


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Magik said:


> and then there's the American Staff which I think is a breed on it's own... different to the APBT... but was originally the same but named differently for registering reasons.. is this right sallyanne?


Yes I think so,it's for show purposes in Amercia.This is why it's so confusing.
We get all sorts of names thrown into it.I always wondered if Pitts were not banned under the DDA,if we would have seen the Irish pitbull terrier instead of the Irish stafford.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Yes I think so,it's for show purposes in Amercia.This is why it's so confusing.
> We get all sorts of names thrown into it.I always wondered if Pitts were not banned under the DDA,if we would have seen the Irish pitbull terrier instead of the Irish stafford.


In the USA many dogs are registered with the American Kennel club as American Stafford's and Pit Bulls with other US registries, so would be considered by the UK authorities as the same breed which is why the breed has not been imported to the UK.

On the continent I have seen the breed and they seem pretty aloof and well behaved at shows during the Vetting (lots of dogs in close proximity) when all dogs must be examined before they enter the show for signs of ill health or being in season.

The AKC standard is here: American Kennel Club - American Staffordshire Terrier and the national breed club in the USA Staffordshire Terrier Club of America

The ones I have seen have a look of a cross between an English and staffordhire bull terrier. the head is a little longer like a Bullies.

So those trying to recreate the look without actually using the breed might cross the two breeds. 

Here is a photo of an Amstaff:


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Brainless said:


> In the USA many dogs are registered with the American Kennel club as American Stafford's and Pit Bulls with other US registries, so would be considered by the UK authorities as the same breed which is why the breed has not been imported to the UK.
> 
> On the continent I have seen the breed and they seem pretty aloof and well behaved at shows during the Vetting (lots of dogs in close proximity) when all dogs must be examined before they enter the show for signs of ill health or being in season.
> 
> ...


Thanks,you explained better than me.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

garryd said:


> how can you say that cause the head looks more like one of you muts than an engilish bull terrier !


The AKC illustration looks in body-shape more like a bully than our staff, and the muzzle is longer.

Look at old photos of bullteriers before the egg shape became so pronounced. You would lose that when crossed with another breed with pronounced stop.

I have seen bully staffy crosses. There is a nasty deaf one at our training classes, if he wasn't white I am sure people would report him as a Pitt.

Are you calling people on this forum Mutts   "looks more like one of you muts"


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

garryd said:


> you said "brainless"that there head looks like a bull terriers !??i say it dont! now i know everyone on here knows your brainless but surely not blind as well!


Well actually the opposite is true  But I can see enough right close up.

What I meant is that the head is longer in muzzle like a bully's and more like the bully's used to be.

The Amstaffs heads are like a cross between the two. Eye and head length more bully, but more stop like staff, and certainly that is what Bull terrier cross staffs I have seen look like, like the Amstaffs I have seen.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

garryd said:


> post deleted


Look what is your problem a bully has a long egg like head a British staff a short muzzled head with a deep stop, a blending of the two would give more muzzle less stop and less round eye which is what the Amstaff resembles.

Not surprising as all three breeds and a few non recognised types all share the bulldog and white terrier ancestry.

So no I'm not changing my mind but clarifying for you.

As for body type it varies a lot but the AKC standard illustration shows a body more reminiscent of a Bull terrier than a Staffie as known in the UK.

This was my original post on the subject Quote: "The ones I have seen have a look of a cross between an English and Staffordshire bull terrier. the head is a little longer like a Bullies."


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Brainless said:


> Look what is your problem a bully has a long egg like head a British staff a short muzzled head with a deep stop, a blending of the two would give more muzzle less stop and less round eye which is what the Amstaff resembles.
> 
> Not surprising as all three breeds and a few non recognised types all share the bulldog and white terrier ancestry.
> 
> ...


I dont see that at all and im looking at a picture of an american staffordshire terrier as I speak! 
Perhaps you were looking at poor examples of the breed, whos parents wernt health tested and who's owners were just backyard breeders!?


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

The ones I saw were at the World show in Holland in 2002, and they definately had a longer muzzle and head length than our Staffs, more like a bullies, but type is very varied in most bull terrier breeds because of some being more bulldog built and others being more athletic and terrrierlike.

As for health certification, I don't know, but the FCI are much stricter about registration and minimum standards of quality and health are part of the process.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Most breeds do differ in type in each county - Some of them look nothing like what we have in the UK


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Debbie said:


> Most breeds do differ in type in each county - Some of them look nothing like what we have in the UK


Yes they do, some differ in type here too and look nothing like what they should! lol.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Tell me about it LOL


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## ilovesharpei (Nov 13, 2007)

i tried to rescue dogs before i got my two, as i have always had rescue dogs while growing up,
however i live on a farm with 100 acres, apparently this is not a good enviroment for a dog??
i went to every rescue centre within 80 miles all the well known ones and the small ones and not one would even consider me for adoption because i do not have and enclosed garden.
now to methat is stupid they would rather rehome to houses with postage stamp gardens where they will maybe get taken for a walk once a day (now i am not saying this goes for eveyone, it is just an example)
so i then looked at breeders.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

ilovesharpei said:


> i tried to rescue dogs before i got my two, as i have always had rescue dogs while growing up,
> however i live on a farm with 100 acres, apparently this is not a good enviroment for a dog??
> i went to every rescue centre within 80 miles all the well known ones and the small ones and not one would even consider me for adoption because i do not have and enclosed garden.
> now to methat is stupid they would rather rehome to houses with postage stamp gardens where they will maybe get taken for a walk once a day (now i am not saying this goes for eveyone, it is just an example)
> so i then looked at breeders.


That is rediculous. They should visit everone who is willing to give a dog a home before they judge and decide...


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

ilovesharpei said:


> i tried to rescue dogs before i got my two, as i have always had rescue dogs while growing up,
> however i live on a farm with 100 acres, apparently this is not a good enviroment for a dog??
> i went to every rescue centre within 80 miles all the well known ones and the small ones and not one would even consider me for adoption because i do not have and enclosed garden.
> now to methat is stupid they would rather rehome to houses with postage stamp gardens where they will maybe get taken for a walk once a day (now i am not saying this goes for eveyone, it is just an example)
> so i then looked at breeders.


unfortunately having a fence seems to be high on the list of priorites, you can be a completely unsuitable dog owner, but as long as you have a fence, you can have a dog. I think where you live sounds a wonderful place for a dog, I know a few that would like to come and live there. I hear this story all the time, really good owners being turned down, because they don't fit the criteria.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> unfortunately having a fence seems to be high on the list of priorites, you can be a completely unsuitable dog owner, but as long as you have a fence, you can have a dog. I think where you live sounds a wonderful place for a dog, I know a few that would like to come and live there. I hear this story all the time, really good owners being turned down, because they don't fit the criteria.


I can see a rescues point though there should be at least some dog proof area on a property for a dogs safety.

Many rescue dogs have been strays, untrained and other older dogs will not have learnt how to stay on their owners property, and to be honest no matter how well trained an unsupervised dog could get into trouble ending on a road, because it followed a scent or a Rabbit.

I have a friend who has several acres on her Dads nursery and the horses pasture and stable, but she still has a run with shelter for when she can't watch them.

As a breeder I would find an owner with no fenced area for the dog unacceptable, but that said they are an independent hunting breed that would go self employed when your back is turned. 

Often it is the large general rescues with the black and white rules, where smaller organisations and breed rescues take a more individual case approach.

Of course you can understand they don't want to take any chances of a homing going wrong as the dog has already had upheaval in it's life.


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## roy38 (Jan 25, 2008)

Brainless said:


> I can see a rescues point though there should be at least some dog proof area on a property for a dogs safety.
> 
> Many rescue dogs have been strays, untrained and other older dogs will not have learnt how to stay on their owners property, and to be honest no matter how well trained an unsupervised dog could get into trouble ending on a road, because it followed a scent or a Rabbit.
> 
> ...


I do not agree with this 
. if someone is offering a rescue dog a good home taking into consideration the amount of dog in rescue then it should be allowed


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

Rescues do have some stupid rules,another I've come accross is they want you to have your own dogs castrated or spayed before they will let you have one of theirs even if you have passed all the other requirements.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

I wonder how many dogs get put to sleep in rescues each year which would have otherwise had another chance because of these strict rules?

I think its very difficult enough to find good homes for some rescue dogs nowadays as a lot of people prefer not to adopt older dogs, especially if they dont know the dogs full background history.

Mark


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## roy38 (Jan 25, 2008)

this is true u take a gamble on a rescue dog and a less than perfect home must be better than a life in a shelter


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

i know of very nice people that have been put off by rescues,,its sad isnt it,, i know they are only trying to do best for the dogs,,,,but some of their rules go to far,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## roy38 (Jan 25, 2008)

i think this is true and when we come to it who is perfect you can go buy a dog without stickin to these strict guidelines so why cant you adopt one?


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

Hello, I have only joined today, this being my third post, however I would like to share my opinions.

I am owner of a purposely bred Pomeranian cross Chihuahua. I will begin by saying my dog is not a 'Designer Dog/ Breed', as this cross has been labelled by the media and people purely breeding for profit, however a cross between two pedigree dogs. I do not believe in this saying - it is simply a term used by people who just breed these crosses, without considering the results, purely for profit. I would never even dream or never have used this term, nor would the people who bred my dog, however I do refer to my dog as a Pomchi so I am not constantly saying Pomeranian cross Chihuahua.

It begin with myself wanting a Great Dane bitch, however our house isn't really big enough and my parents wouldn't allow me to get such a large dog. Giving me permission to get a dog no bigger then an English Springer Spaniel, I set about the task of researching the possible breeds in more depth. I soon had decided what breed I wanted and had set my heart on purchasing Field Spaniel bitch. However I couldn't find a reputable breeder that wasn't half way across the country - my parents weren't willing to travel to view the litters or to get the dog and at the time I couldn't drive. Therefore my next choice was a Chihuahua.

I spent months searching for the perfect Chihuahua and for whatever reason the dogs, litters, breeders etc, that I viewed, spoke to and meet where not to the standard I expected or I couldnt afford the prices they were - and still are - asking. In the end, after months of searching I gave up looking for a Chihuahua. I didnt pick another breed, I was so downhearted I had nearly given up on the idea of getting a dog! 

Once over my disappointment, I considered adopting a dog from a rescue. However the problem was the dogs available were not suitable for our home - being either Staffs, Collies, Staff or terrier crosses. Among other reasons was having children and other pets. I did contact rescues who had Chihuahuas or where specifically for Chihuahuas to discuss the possibility of adopting. Yet as soon as they found out we had small children visiting often that was the end of that.

Many people claim the people who breed these dogs are just in it for the profit and do not care about the welfare of their dogs or the dogs they produce. WRONG! The people who bred my dog spared no money raising their homebred litter and they didn't even make their money back - let alone make any profit. Both the Dam and Sire of my dog were well socialized - use to different environments, animals and people. They were not used for different crosses, were not over bred, and were of course in the best health possible - THIS WAS NOT A PUPPY FARM. The people who bred my dog, were considering breeding a second and final litter of Pomeranian cross Chihuahuas; I havent been informed if they are going ahead with this or not. The owners made it clear the homes that the puppies would be going to, were more important then the money and they insisted on regularly updates on the puppies. The puppies were bred for heath and temperament (the right reasons), not simply for their looks and the people who bred my dog would love to see this cross recognized, as I would I.

As for the problem with crossbreeding dogs is the unknown, the people who bred my dog considered all the possible results and before the Sire and Dam were even in the same room they were positive that the litter would be of top quality

I was desperate for a Chihuahua, so when I found out some people had bred a litter of Chihuahua cross Pomeranians - I knew getting a Great Dane, Field Spaniel or Chihuahua would not be possible and I didnt want a pedigree Pomeranian - I decided to go and view the litter. I was very pleased and only had the decision of choosing which of the two puppies left I wanted - I made the right decision!

So as you can see in the end I went through quite a lot to get the perfect dog for my family and I.

Many people don't agree with purposely breeding these crosses, which I understand, but, is it not better having a healthy, top quality crossbred litter purposely bred, then having an poor quality accidental litter? One of the worst accidental litters I have witnessed is a Dalmatian cross Jack Russell Terrier, which is just so wrong if you think of the incompatibility. Chihuahuas and Pomeranians are fairly compatible.

I agree that many of these designer dogs are incompatible and should not be bred because of the health and many other implications, however, I believe, some of the more compatible crosses may one day be recognized by the Kennel Club. Less knowledgeable people need to be made aware that these dogs are not new breeds and many will never be (the reason I say many never will be is you never know) and many (not all) of the people that breed this dogs are just doing it for the profit. 

I must also state there are many pedigree dogs in rescue centres across the country, in fact the ones I have visited and know of have had more pedigree dogs then crossbreeds. 

I hope I have broadened you opinions and everything I have said is understandable. If you have any questions I would be more then happy to answer them.


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

roy38 said:


> this is true u take a gamble on a rescue dog and a less than perfect home must be better than a life in a shelter


You take a gamble on every dog.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

We gave two rescues a chance,one was proven to be safe around children,who the attacked my son,the other had issues we worked on them with him but sadly had to return him.The rescues are sometimes vague with history of the dog and only the previous owners know whats happened to them.
I expect them to be strict but sometimes they do go too far....


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## roy38 (Jan 25, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> Hello, I have only joined today, this being my third post, however I would like to share my opinions.
> 
> I am owner of a purposely bred Pomeranian cross Chihuahua. I will begin by saying my dog is not a 'Designer Dog/ Breed', as this cross has been labelled by the media and people purely breeding for profit, however a cross between two pedigree dogs. I do not believe in this saying - it is simply a term used by people who just breed these crosses, without considering the results, purely for profit. I would never even dream or never have used this term, nor would the people who bred my dog, however I do refer to my dog as a Pomchi so I am not constantly saying Pomeranian cross Chihuahua.
> 
> ...


well said i breed labradors and can honestly say i have no problem with anyone breeding crosses if done in the correct way! if there is a call for them and they go to a loving home whats the problem. breeders who are against this are worried about there profits being taken away by no ligitimet breed i have no worries i have quality dogs! sorry if i offend its just the truth


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> Hello, I have only joined today, this being my third post, however I would like to share my opinions.
> 
> I am owner of a purposely bred Pomeranian cross Chihuahua. I will begin by saying my dog is not a 'Designer Dog/ Breed', as this cross has been labelled by the media and people purely breeding for profit, however a cross between two pedigree dogs. I do not believe in this saying - it is simply a term used by people who just breed these crosses, without considering the results, purely for profit. I would never even dream or never have used this term, nor would the people who bred my dog, however I do refer to my dog as a Pomchi so I am not constantly saying Pomeranian cross Chihuahua.
> 
> ...


Just one question, why did your dogs breeders not breed a purebred litter instead. You would still have had the puppy you had originally wanted, a Chihuahua, instead of a compromise?

How do you know the background to both parents is healthy, it is hard enough to do your homework on one breeds lines than on two.

Could owning both the parents and not having to pay a stud fee have some bearing, after all they sold them just as easily as they would have if purebred?

If it was because they thought their two dogs had the most super temperaments and that is how the pups would be they were not showing a huge amount of knowledge as ancestors further back like the grandparents can have just as much influence.

My brother is nothing like either of my parents in looks or temperament, but he is the image of my grandfather.

You said that a purebred Pom didn't appeal to you, but your pup could end up looking almost entirely like one, rather than the preferred breed? but less.

A friend of my Dads Danny is mixed race, but appears to be white, his wife is also white. They have two sons who are very dark skinned, and people used to ask if they were adopted.

I am sure you dog is lovely and sweet and yes the breeds are more compatible than most crosses, but I do hope you have her well insured.

As for rescues you can't blame then for wanting the absolute best for their charges, a toy breed can easily be hurt by small children and many have ended up in rescue for being aggressive to kids after being scared or hurt.

As said before dogs found straying are likely to do so again if there is no dog proof garden or enclosure for them.

Big dogs often end up in rescue due to being boisterous and untrained, so not wanting them to go to frail elderly people and those with young children is also understandable.

Many smaller rescues can afford to assess each dog and potential owner on their individual merits, the big ones often have blanket policies because of numbers (so can't get to know each dog as well) and time.

Breeders too of breeds in high demand but low supply can also be extra fussy Cherry picking owners from their list of applicants. I am sure if you had pups you would do the same because you love them.

How many of us who have grown up children think there is anyone good enough for them , and if we had to choose their partners many of them would be old maids and bachelors


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## roy38 (Jan 25, 2008)

Brainless said:


> Just one question, why did your dogs breeders not breed a purebred litter instead. You would still have had the puppy you had originally wanted, a Chihuahua, instead of a compromise?
> 
> How do you know the background to both parents is healthy, it is hard enough to do your homework on one breeds lines than on two.
> 
> ...


i have seen this in a conversation and must agree"YAWN" u preach but with no real back up if a dog is gonna be cared for and loved whats the worry other than ur loss of proffit


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

roy38 said:


> i have seen this in a conversation and must agree"YAWN" u preach but with no real back up if a dog is gonna be cared for and loved whats the worry other than ur loss of proffit


Well the lady wanted a spaniel then a chi, and ended up with a cross that may look nothing like one. Sure she could have got a nice rescue Spaniel size dog which is what she wanted to start with, even a Field spaniel. Instead the cross breeder made a profit  She certainly didn't want one of mine 

Maybe the reason these so called breeders do so well is people aren't prepared to wait, and good breeders don't breed to order, or have off the shelf?


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> ...........Once over my disappointment, I considered adopting a dog from a rescue. However the problem was the dogs available were not suitable for our home - being either Staffs, Collies, Staff or terrier crosses........
> 
> I must also state there are many pedigree dogs in rescue centres across the country, in fact the ones I have visited and know of have had more pedigree dogs then crossbreeds.
> 
> .


Just picked on these two contrdictory statements. I can readily agree with the first as that is how it is in my local rescue.

The second statement needs to be put in context.

It is rare to find a well bred typical pedigree dog in a general rescue centre.

There will be some of the very exploited breeds that suffer the most from poor breeding (GSD Labrador, pet bred Springers, Westies, collie types and terrier types, and in some areas Lurchers and ex racers), as the breed rescues can barely cope with the strain, and of course the dogs breeders are nowhere to be found.

In some areas you will find dumped puppy farm brood bitches aged before their time with teats hanging almost to the ground from overuse.

I have many friends in rescue including Labrador and GSD, and they tell me a well bred dog coming in sticks out like a sore thumb. on sight, and can usually be quickly united with it's breeder.

Sadly there are one or two rescue organisations that will not work with breed rescues for some reason, but most are happy to let breed rescue help them home a dog, or pass it to them for their specialist knowledge.

There were 7800 dogs put to sleep who couldn't find homes last year in the UK.


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

Brainless, firstly she is a he! 

Secondly, I contacted the Field Spaniel Rescue, however they had no dogs up for rehoming, they hadn't any for several months and had no idea when they would have another Field Spaniel available for rehoming - it could've been years, this is not a common breed.

Thirdly, I have seen several well bred pedigree dogs in rescues, if it was not for the fact they were not the breeds we wanted or breeds not suitable for our home we may have adopted one.

Fourthly, why didn't the people who bred my dog breed pedigree litters? For the simply reason they would like this crossbreed recognised as a pedigree.

I am saddened by the fact 7800 dogs were put to sleep last year, however you cant blame people like myself for this. I think you should be looking a the people who breed pet litters of Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Rottiweilers, British Bulldogs, Boxers, American Bulldogs, Japanese Akitas etc. These are the dogs commonly seen in rescues. As well as the Greyhound racing industry.

The rescues also have a blame for this. The Chihuahua rescues I contacted wouldn't allow me to adopt one of their dogs because we had kids visiting our home a couple times a week for one to two hours! 

How can you attack me for being a responsible dog owner, for finding a dog that fits perfectly into our home and lifestyle! Would you have preferred me to adopt a dog from a rescue, I know wouldnt be suitable for our home, to return it a couple of weeks later?


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## roy38 (Jan 25, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> Brainless, firstly she is a he!
> 
> How can you attack me for being a responsible dog owner, for finding a dog that fits perfectly into our home and lifestyle! Would you have preferred me to adopt a dog from a rescue, I know wouldnt be suitable for our home, to return it a couple of weeks later?


Brainless will attack anybody regardless of you being a good owner/breeder or not as this person has nothing else to do i should imagine good advice is welcome preaching and belittling isnt


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

I can see where Brainless is coming from to be honest.....

In my opinion,I don't see the need to breed cross breeds unless bred for a purpose i.e working dog lurchers for example.

The rescues are struggling up & down the uk,dogs are dying and this is just my take on it why breed more,the rescues are all too often picking up the pieces from breeders breeding designer crosses,to maybe start a new breed,(this takes years)& irresponsible breeding.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

roy38 said:


> Brainless will attack anybody regardless of you being a good owner/breeder or not as this person has nothing else to do i should imagine good advice is welcome preaching and belittling isnt


 i couldnt agree more roy38 youve said it right mate  its a shame she has converted one or two other members in to sheep i see !


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

i dont think you are going to agree on this one,,,,,,some people are allways going to be against cross breeding ,but i think there will allways be crossbreeding going on,,so each to there own i say,,,,,,,,,


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

roy38 said:


> Brainless will attack anybody regardless of you being a good owner/breeder or not as this person has nothing else to do i should imagine good advice is welcome preaching and belittling isnt


Ive also have seen this. Brainless is very up on this subject and can give good advice, so more advice please and ALOT less lectures


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

claire said:


> Ive also so seen this. Brainless is very up on this subject and can give good advice, so more advice please and ALOT less lectures


I totally agree, positive advice is very welcome and people will always listen to it, but insinuating that people are irresponsible because they dont agree with you breeding ethics is not going to help anyone.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

People wont listen if preached to so its all a big waste of time. Most of brainlesses view are correct just conveyed in the wrong way, no-one likes being spoke to like a child. Maybe a more laid back approach would get brainless and others point across better which must be what they want! and would be more benificial for dog welfare


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

petforum said:


> I totally agree, positive advice is very welcome and people will always listen to it, but insinuating that people are irresponsible because they dont agree with you breeding ethics is not going to help anyone.


There are certain areas where surely there is no room for differing view points but simply right and wrong.

A medium large breed bitch having already had 3 litters by the time she is 3 years old for example, but maybe we should just let them all get on with it, good bad and indifferent, without a word of censure?

Breeding with no health tests?

Breeding from dogs with serious faults like bad mouths, monorchids etc?

Then nothing will ever change, people get taken in, and dogs suffer.

If best practise is not pointed out how do potential new owners know what to insist on, so that poor breeding dies out through attrition.


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I can see where Brainless is coming from to be honest.....
> 
> In my opinion,I don't see the need to breed cross breeds unless bred for a purpose i.e working dog lurchers for example.
> 
> The rescues are struggling up & down the uk,dogs are dying and this is just my take on it why breed more,the rescues are all too often picking up the pieces from breeders breeding designer crosses,to maybe start a new breed,(this takes years)& irresponsible breeding.


I completely agree, however if you are not able to find a suitable rescue dog, rescues turn you down for various reasons and you can't have the breeds you want due to various reasons, what do you suggest a person does?

I choose my dog as I could afford him, he was healthy, had a good temperament, was suitable for our home and the perfect dog for our family. If it was not for the people who bred my dog, our family would be without this wonderful companion.

Of course to recognise a new breed takes years, however all pedigree breeds started somewhere.

I agree with you colliemerles, I don't think we are going to agree on this subject and each to there own. In my opinion whether a dog has papers, no papers, generations of past relatives that look like them or generations who don't look like them. They are all dogs, all loyal companions. The joy is in owning a dog, not owning a dog because it is a pedigree.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> I completely agree, however if you are not able to find a suitable rescue dog, rescues turn you down for various reasons and you can't have the breeds you want due to various reasons, what do you suggest a person does?
> 
> I choose my dog as I could afford him, he was healthy, had a good temperament, was suitable for our home and the perfect dog for our family. If it was not for the people who bred my dog, our family would be without this wonderful companion.
> 
> ...


But you could have gone on a good breeders waiting list for a Field Spaniel?

There is a serious overpopulation issue with dogs, so really breeding just because you can rather than for breed improvement or for dogs required for work is not considered responsible.

All these dogs in the rescue centres have been bred by someone, who should be accountable for them for their whole lives  Very few have breeders who have died or are too ill to take responsibility.

Hopefully your pups breeders will always be there to help with the pups they bred, and am sure they had you sign a contract to that effect, but in my opinion and the majority of people in canine welfare, they are at best misguided and naive about the bigger picture in breeding this way.

For those who think I am exaggerating why not have a look at a rescue site in the US called Petfinders and look up and see how many of these small breed crosses there are in rescue Search results - pets in adoption centers near Hightstown, New Jersey.

Yes it isn't the UK, but the fad has come from there in only the last couple of years. Here are the details of the first Pom x Chi to coem up: Adopt Scooter3 - Pomeranian, Chihuahua Dog [Mix]

Yes loads of pedigrees too, but look at the quality (or lack of), , this Chihuahua for example (no good breeder produced him)Adopt Litto - Chihuahua Dog

In Australia they are already finding huge numbers of these designer crosses ending up in rescue as they haven't the promised characteristics or are unhealthy and of poor temperament.


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## ilovesharpei (Nov 13, 2007)

how can an enclosure be the same as an enclosed garden,? all the rescue centres i went to would not allow the dog to be kept outside.
i have an run that dudley goes in when i go to work.
i went to lots of rescue centres they all said that they would not even come and do a home visit!!! 
i have lots of expreience with rescue dogs and have lots of time and effort to put into them.
i ended up with shar pei after i has thouroughly researched them, and i will be breeding with them when april is old enough,
becasue i have had several vets comment on what a fantastic dog dudley is of the breed he has none of the problems that are asscoiated with this breed and ask me if i am going to breed with him. 
i feel that puppys from my two would be healthy and hopefully problem free.
but with regards to cross breeds some of these are healthier that some of the pedigree dogs that are bred. sometimes this is regardless of health tests.
i thought this was a informative sight for discussion and help.
and surely we are all entitled to our opinion, and it is not for one person to decided who is rong or right ?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

ilovesharpei said:


> how can an enclosure be the same as an enclosed garden,? all the rescue centres i went to would not allow the dog to be kept outside.
> i have an run that dudley goes in when i go to work.
> i went to lots of rescue centres they all said that they would not even come and do a home visit!!!
> i have lots of expreience with rescue dogs and have lots of time and effort to put into them.
> ...


well said !!!!!!!!!! i have both pure breed and cross bred,, and i personnally find my cross bred dogs have less problems than the pure bred,, but i wouldnt preach to everyone that they HAD to have a cross breed, it would be THERE CHOICE


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

Brainless said:


> There are certain areas where surely there is no room for differing view points but simply right and wrong.
> 
> A medium large breed bitch having already had 3 litters by the time she is 3 years old for example, but maybe we should just let them all get on with it, good bad and indifferent, without a word of censure?
> 
> ...


Im not arguing as to weither your right or wrong im saying you have good knowledge but no idea of passing this information on with out trying to talk down to people


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> I am not willing to discuss this matter with you further - you are rude, igorant, obonxious and closed minded. I hope you realise that one day a dog doesn't have to have papers or be a pedigree to be loved.


Well said i totally agree a dog is a pet and if its loved thats all that matters


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

I am not willing to discuss this matter with you further - you are rude, igorant, obonxious and closed minded. I hope you realise that one day a dog doesn't have to have papers or be a pedigree to be loved.

(Accidentally deleted my post.)


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

agree there 
this matter goes on and on 
lets just face it, there will always be people who breed crosses and ped's some for the breed, some for the money,
some people dont take responsible for the pups and some that do.

so why have the same thing over and over again,
people come on here to ask questions and for help not arguments


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## ilovesharpei (Nov 13, 2007)

yep i agree


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

carol said:


> agree there
> this matter goes on and on
> lets just face it, there will always be people who breed crosses and ped's some for the breed, some for the money,
> some people dont take responsible for the pups and some that do.
> ...


i agree people come to ask questions not be preached too


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

carol said:


> agree there
> this matter goes on and on
> lets just face it, there will always be people who breed crosses and ped's some for the breed, some for the money,
> some people dont take responsible for the pups and some that do.
> ...


well said Carol,, SO PLEASE THINK BEFORE REPLYING, we are not here to attack other members with our answers, we are ment to be trying to help,,,


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

Its nice 2 be nice


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

thank you 
oh bug must of been on a good strain of thought lol lol


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> I completely agree, however if you are not able to find a suitable rescue dog, rescues turn you down for various reasons and you can't have the breeds you want due to various reasons, what do you suggest a person does?


What I suggest is and what I did was getting in touch with a Breed Club who know of reputable good Ethical Breeders who have litters or litters due.

Too many people buy dogs on a wim,easy come easy go attitude,it doesn't work out so rescue pick up the pieces.These dogs didn't ask to be bred,they are bred by selfish individuals,for fianiancial gain,pity they don't experience a hard time when the bitch is whelping and end up way out of pocket,maybe that's the only way they will learn!


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## CreatureCrazy (Jan 25, 2008)

I DID ALL THAT! Unfortunately like I have said I couldn't reach the locations, couldn't afford the ridiculous prices (for a decent Chihuahua you are looking at £1000 - £2000+) or breeders refused to let me purchase one of their puppies (which I can understand)! THE PEOPLE WHO BRED MY DOG DIDN'T MAKE THEIR MONEY BACK, LET ALONE MAKE ANY PROFIT!!!!!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

CreatureCrazy said:


> I DID ALL THAT! Unfortunately like I have said I couldn't reach the locations, couldn't afford the ridiculous prices (for a decent Chihuahua you are looking at £1000 - £2000+) or breeders refused to let me purchase one of their puppies (which I can understand)! THE PEOPLE WHO BRED MY DOG DIDN'T MAKE THEIR MONEY BACK, LET ALONE MAKE ANY PROFIT!!!!!


I wasn't having a go,I simply answered your question.

I have another question,to start a new breed it takes yrs,even decades to get them recognised,so if your Breeder of your pup wants to start a new breed,what are they aiming for in looks,health,temperament etc,it takes litters of pups to get the all important "type" factor,so what happens to those which do not fit the bill,are they culled, rehomed for money,gone into rescue etc?
Did they keep a puppy,did they keep all details of the dogs used etc?

Also another question as you reckon your breeder is great,did they give you insurance and sell under a contract?


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

lots of working dogs are crossed have you ever seen a pure bred lurcher pmsl


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I can see where Brainless is coming from to be honest.....
> 
> *In my opinion,I don't see the need to breed cross breeds unless bred for a purpose i.e working dog lurchers for example*.
> 
> The rescues are struggling up & down the uk,dogs are dying and this is just my take on it why breed more,the rescues are all too often picking up the pieces from breeders breeding designer crosses,to maybe start a new breed,(this takes years)& irresponsible breeding.





clairemac9 said:


> lots of working dogs are crossed have you ever seen a pure bred lurcher pmsl


Did you not understand the sentence is red then,they are bred for a purpose,for working,not just because!


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

hence some dogs that are crossed end up being a better breed ie the plummer terrier fab little dog NOT for shows but great little worker


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

sallyanne we have been here before EVERYONE is entitled to ther own opinion


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

clairemac9 said:


> hence some dogs that are crossed end up being a better breed ie the plummer terrier fab little dog NOT for shows but great little worker


Yes but they have a purpose don't they,again working dogs,I don't see the point in crossing a chi with a pomm,or what is hoped to be achieved by way of purpose they serve,not to say they are not loved any less,just don't see the point.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

It does takes years and years to get the Kennel Club to even consider recognising a new breed - litters and litters to get a type set in etc etc.....
Lurchers are crossed but the KC dont recognise them - so thats a different kettle of fish all together.


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

all breeds have have been cross bred to get where they are now so end of


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## clairemac9 (Jan 14, 2008)

sorry i never read the thred right through i apologise shoot me if you have to


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

This is my opinion! 

Those who are here to spread the word about the plight our rescue centres are facing I suggest you stop breeding yourself!

It is fine to state your opinion regarding cross breeding, but at the end of the day if someone chooses to buy a cross breed, who are you to question their motives!

May I suggest you put your efforts into breeding your own dogs correctly and stop worying about everyone else. Im sure you have better things to do other than pick holes in everything!

Just a thought.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> This is my opinion!
> 
> Those who are here to spread the word about the plight our rescue centres are facing I suggest you stop breeding yourself!
> 
> ...


 i agree ! even show dogs have ended up in rescue centres!


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