# Nitrate issue



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Hi all

I was hoping for some suggestions.

I have had my Roma 90 litre tank for about 5 years,1 year ago I decided to move it from my hallway to the dining room where I would see it more.

With the move we replaced the filter with an A Ponds Solutions 1000litre external filter. 

Since then I seem to have constant issues with being able to keep fish. The tank is fairly well planted but I cannot keep more than 6 Neon tetra sized fish. I currently have 3 neons, 1 endler, 3 black neons. 

Ph is at 8 my tap water is 7.8, Nitrite is always nil, Ammonia never goes above 0.25. I have constant issues with Nitrate over the last couple of months despite the lowest I seem to get is 80ppm. Even tonight I have done a 50% change, tested the water 20 minutes after the change and its at 40ppm already.

I have changed my filter media over the last 2 months gradually swapping the new ones in over a 6 week period. New carbon, emptied the dirty water at the bottom of the filter. 

I'm having to change water twice weekly with at least a 3rd going to keep Nitrate at 40-80ppm.

I'm feeding the fish one small pinch every other day, the pinch equates to about 3 pin heads of food.

I have also rinsed the rocks in the removed aquarium water.



I add 1.5ml of liquid carbon daily and 8ml of liquid fertilizer weekly.

Obviously its a pain plus the constant water changes can't be good for my fish, to be honest I was hoping to keep 6 Endlers, 6 Neons and the 3 Black neons but the tank just won't cope at the moment.

My only other thought is could my two pieces of planted bog wood be causing issues?

Suggestions most welcome.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi 

A quick note first - you shouldn't need to change filter media completely, just give it a swish in a bucket of old tank water. I only clean one of my 5 filter sponges every 3-4 weeks and it's fine. Over-cleaning/changing of media can result in ammonia spikes.

I wouldn't stress too much about nitrate, most fish can cope fine with 40-80ppm. My tap water is 40+ so my tank is always between 40 and 80, even after a large water change.

Here's what I'd recommend:

- Check for any dead fish/snails etc or rotting plants/leaves, and remove.
- Test your tap water for nitrate. National guidelines state that it can be up to 50ppm. If your tap water has high nitrates, there's not a lot you can do about it unless you switch to RO, or maybe 50/50 RO and tap water. But with the species you want to keep, I wouldn't worry too much, as they're not particularly nitrate sensitive.
- Consider changing your ferts, especially if you have high tap nitrates. It could well be your ferts that are adding more nitrate than you need. If you already have tap nitrates of 20 or more, consider changing to a fert such as TNC Lite which doesn't contain nitrate, or switching to EI dosing minus the nitrate (this is what I've done).

Hope this helps!


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

yes normally I don't change the filter media at all just swish it in the bucket.

Forgot to say I have already tested the tap water its nil. Have checked the tank for rotting plants, snails etc, cleaned all the gaps in my rocks

I hadn't thought at all about my fertilizer dozy me, thank you this could be the issue.

Sadly though my fish don't seem to cope at this Nitrate level apart from the tetras. If I add fish to the tank I lose fish according to Aquarium advisor my tank should be able to cope with much more in fact they say I should have more fish as a matter of urgency.

AqAdvisor - roma

Edit just to add I put the dwarf bronze Cory on just in case he was hiding away still in there sadly I think both of them died


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Edit just to add currently using TNC complete.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hmm, if your tap water's at nil nitrates then TNC Complete should be fine at the recommended dosage. All those deaths makes me wonder if there could be something else going on other than high nitrates. What symptoms, if any, do the fish show before they die?


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

No symptoms at all, the tank is lovely and settled but if I increase the load at all I experience losses. 

The fish and there feeding happily and the next day they are gone  Plus no bodies at all.


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## Dragonlady (Jul 5, 2010)

Do you use any plug-in scents or other chemicals in this room? Everything has started when you moved the aquarium to another room...Maybe the high nitrates are not the cause of fish deaths?
I'd check the buckets you are using for water changes and ask if somebody washed a car or a floor using the bucket.

Do you have any Malaysian Trumpet snails in the tank? When they die nitrates ammonia, nitrites and nitrates can go up.

However, it's strange that you cannot find dead fish in the tank and you don't keep plecos which can scavenge on dead fish.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Dragonlady, that's pretty much what I was thinking. It sounds to me like something else is causing the deaths, and the bodies could be decaying somewhere and causing the nitrate issues.

I'd have a really thorough check of the tank and filter for any bodies - move all decor and check thoroughly behind/around all plants, behind the filter intake (this is a common place for bodies of small fish like neons to wind up), behind the heater, behind any pipes etc... basically anywhere where they could have got stuck.

But the most important thing is to find the culprit behind the deaths, as I really don't think the nitrate levels are likely to be the issue. As Dragonlady said, plug-in air fresheners etc are lethal, as are chemical sprays used anywhere near the tank. Did you do anything else during the move, such as add any additional decor? You mention planted bogwood - what did you use to attach the plants to the bogwood? Or could anyone else in your house be doing anything in or near the tank when you're not around, such as putting in extra food, or using cleaning sprays?

Also, is your filter outlet agitating the water surface to ensure oxygen is being added to the water?

And when you add new fish, how do you introduce them to the tank? Do you add them with the water in the bag, or do you net them out?

Sorry for the billion questions, just trying to build up a picture of what could be going on.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

I'm very grateful for the billion questions.

The tank has been thoroughly checked, I had every rock out washed them all in Aquarium water, emptied the filter completely. Its not possible for anything to get behind the heater. Not found one single dead fish but they are definitely gone. Obviously I haven't blasted out every little crevice in the rock.

Oddly I have one black neon that I have had for at least 6 years still fine in there.

I don't use chemical air fresheners I keep tree frogs so I keep any chemicals to a minimum. Dining table is damp dusted as is the window sill by the tank.


I haven't lost a fish for 3 weeks. Since the week I added 4 Neon Tetras, that week I lost 1 Endler and 1 of the Neons.

I attached the plants to the bog wood with fishing line, one was purchased from Aquarium gardens with the plant already attached. Plants are from Aquarium gardens easy to manage set. I do add 1.5ml of liquid carbon daily.

Very badly I don't net the new fish out I do add the water they came in after floating the bags for about 30 minutes.

The Filter bar agitates the whole surface area of the tank gently.

I did get a few common snails with some plants I purchased, I have gradually picked nearly all of them out of the tank.

Fish are purchased from Pets at Home not the best but they are much better than many others, the staff do genuinely seem to know what they are talking about. No problems with any tanks in store that I have noticed. 

I do prefer to buy from shops in my local area so that the water quality is very similar. When we did have a good shop selling tropical fish in the area I was always told to buy from close by for water quality.

Only myself and husband he swears he isn't feeding the fish or doing anything by the tank.

I will buy a new bucket and see if that helps.

Not done any more water changes since I started this thread, the Nitrate has got to be due to the TNC as it was the same post water change and I topped up the TNC at the change then retested.

I'm tempted to add 3 more Neons to see what happens but hate the idea of killing fish needlessly.

The original move was to try and improve plant quality plus enjoy the tank more. The tank does receive more natural day light than before but no direct sunlight.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Being fair it is possible for a body to sink and disappear behind the rocks for one or two days. There are 5 biggish rocks in there plus 2 pieces of bog wood.

Just a thought could the amount of rocks be reducing my volume of water to fish ratio.









The second two photos are today the water isn't as clear because I had just moved all the rocks. The rocks are normally higher at the back.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Yes the rocks and decor will reduce the amount of water in the tank, but you should still have room for several more fish in there than what you have, and even if you were overstocked you have good filtration and are doing plenty of water changes, so you would be highly unlikely to be seeing any ill effects as quickly as you describe.

Are the rocks new, or have you had them all along? (Some rocks can contain metal deposits which can leach heavy metals into the water.)

The only other thing I can suggest is that the water you introduce into the tank from the bags with the new fish could have some pathogens or something in it. Something like columnaris can kill pretty quickly, though if that's the problem it's odd that you haven't noticed any symptoms.

Re the ferts, I wouldn't change them as plants do need nitrate, but maybe reduce the dose? You could also try splitting it into 2-3 smaller doses per week rather than one large one so that it's not one big nitrate hit all at once.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

oops double post!


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

No the rocks have been with me about 6 years. I did try removing the rocks for a couple of weeks a couple of months ago no change to the tank chemistry.

My rock is a bit similar to this but mostly smoother I boiled and soaked it when I first got it. I purchased mine from an Aquarist rather than ebay.

Beige Aquarium / Terrarium Jura Stones | eBay

I will try adding fish by netting them and changing the fertilizer routine.

I really appreciate the help.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

No probs, sorry i couldn't help more. Sounds like you're doing everything right so the fish deaths are a bit of a mystery. To acclimatise, even if the water params in the shop are very similar, I'd suggest floating the bag then gradually adding tank water to the bag over an hour or so before netting them out. Other than that, nothing really I can suggest. Good luck and let us know how it goes!


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## Dragonlady (Jul 5, 2010)

Picklelily said:


> Being fair it is possible for a body to sink and disappear behind the rocks for one or two days. There are 5 biggish rocks in there plus 2 pieces of bog wood.
> 
> Just a thought could the amount of rocks be reducing my volume of water to fish ratio.
> 
> The second two photos are today the water isn't as clear because I had just moved all the rocks. The rocks are normally higher at the back.


Wooow, the tank looks absolutely amazing. Are the plants real or did you "smuggle" some fake ones?

Please everybody correct me if I'm wrong but my local, very reliable aquatic shop advised me not to put any neon tetras in a new tank as they are not that hardy. Could you try another species like rasboras and see what happens? I know your tank has been cycled and it's not new but there are some issues, for the reason why not to try another fish? 
Tetras in general are more sensitive.

Apart from that, I'd never put any water from [email protected] They are located only 0.5 miles away from me and I never buy any fish from them. Last time, I purchased snails from [email protected] but have to confess that I washed their shells in tap water. They have always casualties in the shop! (Snails doing fine so far.)
I'd never put any newly purchased fish immediately in the community tank, even from a reliable retailer. As with us humans, one day we're fine, next day we're down with flu. The same applies to fish. 
I'd buy a small, cheap quarantine tank and kept fish separate in the first two weeks. You'll see what happens.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Aww thank you the plants aren't looking as nice as they were, the water changes aren't suiting them. I have always used a mix of artificial and real plants, I try to encourage the plants to take root in the plastic or silk ones it then all the artificial plants look quite realistic.

Sadly my only other local shop that sells fish isn't great and the next nearest is about 40 minutes drive away and the fish from there just never seem to do well.

An isolation tank is a good idea I will sort that after Christmas I will try adding water to the bags and a longer floatation. 

Thanks for the suggestions both of you


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Ok added 8 white cloud minnows, I opted for 8 as I wanted 6 for schooling and they were sold in groups of 4.

I gave them 1 hour in the bag adding tank water every 15 minutes. I netted them out of the bag and into the tank. I fed the fish some bloodworm as I added them to the tank.

Nitrate 40ppm
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite nil
Ph 8

Everything looked fine for about 45 minutes suddenly one of my neons seems off colour he has developed a jerking motion to his swimming, swimming a few cm head slightly lower than the tail stopping moving then starting again.

Worried now to be honest.

On the very odd side one of the other neons is flirting with a minnow and the minnow is displaying back, they are sat together under the bogwood


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Well fed everyone some defrosted pea all eating well


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Best not to feed the tank on a day you're adding new fish, especially high-protein food like bloodworm. By adding 8 fish to a tank that only had around that amount to start with, you're doubling the bioload and it will take the filter colony a while to adjust.

What time did you check the ammonia? You'll need to keep a close eye on it over the next couple of days, as it may well be on the rise already, which may be what's distressing your fish.

If you have any Seachem Prime, I'd put in a whole-tank dose of that ASAP to detoxify any potential ammonia (incidentally it also claims to detoxify nitrate).

If your ammonia is really at 0.25, even that level can cause problems, especially at a high pH like 8. The reason I didn't mention it when you said earlier that your ammonia stays at 0.25 was that some of the test kits are dodgy and continually show trace levels of ammonia even when it's not actually present. But like I said, keep a very close eye on it over the next few days, and any time it shows anything more than the palest hint of green, do a large water change and add an ammonia binder such as Prime if possible.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Will dose with some prime. All fish looking good, I'm planning a routine water change today anyway

I have to agree my Ammonia always shows 0.25 I tested on fish arrival and again yesterday will test again today.

To honest I'm unimpressed with my API test kit I also have some tetra test sticks that I have had for years they show 0 ammonia. I have reached that point with the API kit although its only a few months old and in date until 2016.

The upset tetra completely changed his behaviour after being fed some pea.


I know it was a big increase but to be honest I felt as I'm watching the tank carefully it would be ok.

I have always fed on putting new fish in the tank I was taught it was a good distraction for the current fish and helps reduce bullying.


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## Dragonlady (Jul 5, 2010)

Picklelily said:


> Will dose with some prime. All fish looking good, I'm planning a routine water change today anyway
> 
> I have to agree my Ammonia always shows 0.25 I tested on fish arrival and again yesterday will test again today.
> 
> ...


I have tested Tetra's "Test 6 in 1" strip test and API drop tests and in my opinion the API is more reliable as the strip tests shows always 0ppm what can't be true as I've got already 25ppm nitrates in my tap water, confirmed by water supplier tests. 
At the beginning, after setting up my fish tank, I also run double tests with tablets tests - "Easy Test by Interpet". API and Interpet show exactly the same results, confirming "Thames Water" report.

Tetra's 6 in 1 was more or less a waste of money, unfortunately.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Glad the tetra's doing better now 

I'm on my 2nd batch of API ammonia tests and both have always shown a faint tinge of green, even when tested on RO.

Still worth doing water tests for a few days and daily doses of Prime for a couple more days IMO. I always do this as insurance when adding new fish


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Sadly I live in hope of having a digital monitoring system.

My son is studying marine zoology and rolls his eyes at my archaic API test kit, apparently its all probes in the lab :sosp::sosp: But then he rants about even a trace of Nitrate so I'm not fessing up!

Ok tested all tonight Nitrate still at 40ppm

Nitrite nil

Ammonia could possibly be 0ppm as the green cast shows the same on tap water so its either 0.25ppm or 0ppm.

PH and here's the shocker has dropped to 7.8 the same as my tap water, First time in a long time.

On these figure I put off a water change until tomorrow as my plants are looking so much happier the last 2 days. I have increased the lighting by 2 hours to encourage my plants to use up the Nitrate. For the first time I haven't added a weekly fertilizer dose. I will perhaps use 1/4 dose on Sunday depending upon water test. 

Could it be I have been mucking up my fish because of the fertilizer? 


All fish present and accounted for, tank dosed with seachem prime.

Feeling hopeful thank you x


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