# The myth of over-exercising puppies...?



## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

Here is an article I was sent regarding the apparent myth of over-exercise in puppies and young dogs:



> "*Veterinary Notes for Dog Owners*" By J.E.F. Houlton *MA, Vet MB, MRCVS, DVR*
> 
> 'As far as I know there is no published evidence on the relationship of exercise and developmental musculo-skeletal disease in dogs.
> 
> ...





> *"I am unaware of any scientific publication that indicates that exercise in young dogs is detrimental to joint development."*
> 
> G.G. Keller, D.V.M., MS
> Diplomate A.C.V.R.
> ...





> 'I don't believe in restricting the exercise of growing dogs to the degree you mentioned. I feel that moderate, relatively controlled exercise is important to increase muscle tone and support joints, such as the hips and elbows, that genetic prone to hip and elbow dysplasia. "Everything in moderation". So free exercise and some jumping or climbing are acceptable, but *not excessive exercise like running a marathon*.'
> 
> Malcolm McKee BVMS MVS DSAO MACVSc MRCVS
> RCVS Recognised Specialist in Small Animal Orthopaedics
> Willows Referral Service, West Midlands.





> According to:
> 
> Charles H. Turner, Professor In the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery and director of orthopaedic research at Indiana University School of Medicine, indianapolis'
> 
> ...





> In humans:
> 
> • Exercise encourages calcium absorption in the bone
> • Bones respond to increased blood flow as exercise increases circulation and thus the number of nutrients transported to the bones
> ...


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

This is something I've often wondered about myself....

Personally, I am still on the fence.... I certainly think there are many variables that could be an issue. For example, there is a considerable difference between taking the pup to the park and letting it potter about or play at its own pace, and rest at will, than any sort of "forced" walk. Speed could be an issue. Terrain very probably - most of us that have ever attempted exercise ourselves will know that exercising on hard ground (particularly concrete) is far more damaging than running on soft ground such as grass.

Our bichons breeder said there was no need to particularly restrict exercise within normal limits - but to build up gradually, go at pup's pace, allow rest, etc. She said the main issue was high-stress activities like jumping and climbing stairs - rather than ambling around the park.

I would love to see more research on this - I've never owned a high risk breed, but I must admit the idea of 5 minutes per month of age seems insanely low to me.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> Terrain very probably - most of us that have ever attempted exercise ourselves will know that exercising on hard ground (particularly concrete) is far more damaging than running on soft ground such as grass.


It depends what you mean by "damaging". It may not be quite so comfortable to run on, but is it doing any actual harm to your body? Most likely not, because we (and dogs) are 'designed' to run.

The gist of the article is that there is ZERO evidence to suggest that exercise can cause any type of joint problems and, to the contrary, can only be beneficial to joints thanks to the increased muscle mass that goes along with plenty of moderate exercise in young pups.



> I must admit the idea of 5 minutes per month of age seems insanely low to me.


Absolutely agree with that.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I don't think this is saying anything new 

A pup that is not allowed to exercise and get overweight is at risk too. From the part that you highlighted it is the overweight that is the big risk - nothing new there and nothing to disagree with.



> I am unaware of any scientific publication that indicates that exercise in young dogs is detrimental to joint development


No, but if there is a genetic predisposition then it can affect it. There may not be any scientific data, but young growing bones and joints are soft - in all animals including human ones, so it pays not to overdo it. You wouldn't make a toddler walk a marathon would you? And there is a physiological reason why children cannot use gym equipment.



> but I must admit the idea of 5 minutes per month of age seems insanely low to me.


This is a guide to try to make people be sensible. It doesn't mean that you can only take a 3 puppy out for 15 minutes - mine could be out half an hour or more but it will be a combination of enforced exercise (ie on lead) a run around a bit of training and some rest.

A health dog will not be affected, but a displastic one, with the loose joints will be affected by overexercise, so it makes sense to be cautious, particularly as you won't know if a puppy has the predisposition to displasia until it's too late.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2010)

Dunno where I stand on this one either! Will be the first to hold my hand up and admit that we have never adhered to the general fiver mintues per month! It would have been near on impossible with the others! That said if anyone ever asks I normally do use the five miute theory!

BUT! I am very careful about her jumping still and would not encourage her to do so! and played hell when I found out OH had taken her round the agility course!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It depends what you mean by "damaging". It may not be quite so comfortable to run on, but is it doing any actual harm to your body? Most likely not, because we (and dogs) are 'designed' to run.


No, not a healthy one, but imagine you have no socket and the ball of the joint is misshapen? The ball of the joint will be bashing around against what little there is of the socket and too much exercise will cause a problem. The joint is young and soft and the action of walking that sets the hip in the socket - too little and to overweight (the two don't necessarily go together) is just as much of a problem as too much - IF a dog has a predisposition to it.

Reason, common sense and moderation are the key, but I have lost count of people taking their young pups for hour long walks (after all, one of the reasons they bought a dog was to take it for long walks), perhaps taking them on long walks to tire them out, because lets face it puppies are energetic but they are risking long term damage if they do have problems. I know which side of caution I'd err on.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> You wouldn't make a toddler walk a marathon would you? And there is a physiological reason why children cannot use gym equipment.


Absolutely - and the article addresses this very issue by stating that young dogs shouldn't be forced to 'run marathons' at an early age. Who would even think of doing that with a young pup anyway? We're talking about extremes here - not a walk in the countryside or around town for an hour or so.

Let's face it - most people walk, what, an hour or two a day with their dogs? According to the article, this should in no way affect their development as puppies, it can only be beneficial (by way of increased muscle mass) and people shouldn't restrict the exercise of their puppies to anything like the levels that I have seen mentioned both here and elsewhere (i.e. ALL OVER the internet) - or, indeed, in any way, shape or form.



> No, but if there is a genetic predisposition then it can affect it.


Is there a test to determine whether or not a particular dog WILL get joint problems? 'Over-exercising' (i.e forcing a pup to run a marathon) can affect it if/when it develops, yes, but it in no way CAUSES hip/elbow dysplacia or other joint problems - which are genetic in nature. A pup with such a 'predisposition' will, by definition, develop joint problems anyway.

Lots of people DO restrict their puppy's exercise for this very reason - thinking that they will CAUSE joint problems if they 'over exercise' a young pup - something that is apparently not the case.



> A healthy dog will not be affected, but a displastic one, with the loose joints will be affected by overexercise, so it makes sense to be cautious, particularly as you won't know if a puppy has the predisposition to displasia until it's too late.


Such dogs will develop joint problems no matter how much exercise they get and at whatever age. Such problems can only be dealt with if/when they materialise. Then, and only then, does something need to be done surgically, nutritionally and, perhaps, exercise-wise.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Exercising on hard ground for a dog with dysplasia is not a good idea, grass is far better as the hips do not experience such a jolt - that's why there are certain shoes for all levels of sport - to help decrease impact trauma on our joints/backs. That's for a fully developed frame, so i'd err on the side of caution anyway.

It doesn't mean that you can *give* a dog dysplasia with too much exercise but you're venturing into the unknown by not restricting to some extent. Soft bones and joints can suffer in a way that stronger bones don't.
Puppies are lively anyway so weight gain is not a worry - at least it hasn't been on the malamute forum I go on where everyone limits to the 5 min rule.

Reading and article on HD at the vets recently it stated that dogs with even slight HD should be walked on grass where possible and off lead, as lead walking is determined by the walker and not the dog - where as the dog will stop when it's had enough. That way the dog determines how long it can walk and not the owner, who'll probably think poor Fido wants to walk for longer, where as in reality he may want to go home! 

*One question:* Why do they makes shoes for different activities, for healthy people of course - is it not to safeguard certain area's of the body?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The report did say hip and elbow malformation dyplasia is hereditry. So i suppose if you have a large dog from a breed that have highish average scores i would think it might be wise to watch the levels of exercise. Im not saying you have to keep to the 5min rule to the second but a sensible amount. Large breeds grow so rapidly i wouldnt think it would do the growth plates much good if its overdone.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The report did say hip and elbow malformation dyplasia is hereditry.


It is hereditary but the expression is influenced by environmental factors such as diet, weight and exercise.



> Absolutely - and the article addresses this very issue by stating that young dogs shouldn't be forced to 'run marathons' at an early age. Who would even think of doing that with a young pup anyway? We're talking about extremes here - not a walk in the countryside or around town for an hour or so.


An hour or more is a marathon to a young puppy.



> A pup with such a 'predisposition' will, by definition, develop joint problems anyway.


Not necessarily and the degree to which it develops is influenced by environmental factors one of which is overexercise.



> Is there a test to determine whether or not a particular dog WILL get joint problems?


Not yet, and not for want of research. It will probably be a little way off, but I'm sure one will be one day. It is a multifactoral problem and current thinking is that there are probably around 10 different genes that combined cause the problem.

Until that day, it makes sense to limit risk. Exercise, diet and weight are all environmental factors that influence it.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Reading and article on HD at the vets recently it stated that dogs with even slight HD should be walked on grass where possible and off lead, as lead walking is determined by the walker and not the dog - where as the dog will stop when it's had enough. That way the dog determines how long it can walk and not the owner,


That is the point - walking is dictated by the owner/walker, not by they puppy. I could and do take a puppy out for a much longer time than 5 minutes per month, but it will not be lead walk which is enforced exercise - that is limited.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> Exercising on hard ground for a dog with dysplasia is not a good idea, grass is far better as the hips do not experience such a jolt - that's why there are certain shoes for all levels of sport - to help decrease impact trauma on our joints/backs. That's for a fully developed frame, so i'd err on the side of caution anyway.


Agreed that exercising a dog WITH dysplacia on hard ground for extended periods is a bad idea, but how many dogs are exposed to such exercise? I would say that the vast majority of dogs enjoy free-running exercise in the countryside or at least on grass/tracks.

It's interesting that you brought-up the subject of sport footwear.

I saw a documentary recently about this very subject, and they were saying that humans run far better when they are barefoot (Zola Budd, for example).


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> Exercising on hard ground for a dog with dysplasia is not a good idea, grass is far better as the hips do not experience such a jolt - that's why there are certain shoes for all levels of sport - to help decrease impact trauma on our joints/backs. That's for a fully developed frame, so i'd err on the side of caution anyway.


Agreed that exercising a dog WITH dysplacia on hard ground for extended periods is a bad idea, but how many dogs are exposed to such exercise? I would say that the vast majority of dogs enjoy free-running exercise in the countryside or at least on grass/tracks.

It's interesting that you brought-up the subject of sport footwear.

I saw a documentary recently about this very subject, and they were saying that humans run far better when they are barefoot (Zola Budd, for example). Perhaps the runners who use expensive 'scientific' footwear, have brought into the same marketing techniques that those who feed Pedigree Chum have?



rocco33 said:


> The degree to which it develops is influenced by environmental factors *one of which is overexercise*.


Is that one of the factors, though? That's the whole point here.

If exercise really doesn't CAUSE any form of dysplacia, then you can delete it from that list of "environmental factors".

I doubt any of us would deny that strenuous exercise is bad for a dog who has _already_ developed HD/ED, but why err on the side of caution if you are not giving a dog the life it deserves by restricting it to anything less than it would normally enjoy, and it goes on to NOT develop anything?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> If exercise really doesn't CAUSE any form of dysplacia, then you can delete it from that list of "environmental factors


It's expression is influenced by environmental factors I never said it causes it. It is a hereditary problem.



> I doubt any of us would deny that strenuous exercise is bad for a dog who has already developed HD/ED, but why err on the side of caution if you are not giving a dog the life it deserves by restricting it to anything less than it would normally enjoy, and it goes on to NOT develop anything?


And how are you going to tell whether your puppy has HD or not?
And actually puppies in the wild don't go on long walks - they don't actually stray that far at all.



> Let's face it - most people walk, what, an hour or two a day with their dogs? According to the article, this should in no way affect their development as puppies,


Actually the article says that exercise should be variable and self regulating - which is not the case on an hour or two walk.



> My advice to owners has always been that puppies should have normal exercise - including free running - but not an over-concentration on any one activity and always with the option to self regulate - i.e. they can always flop down and rest rather than being dragged across the Downs on a route march at the weekend.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Just to make it clear, the '5 minute rule' which is a guide rather than a rule applies to enforced exercise, it does not mean that a 3 month old puppy should only have 15 minutes of activity a day.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Difficult one, Both Banjo's parents were hip scored & fine none of his brothers & sisters have HD as far as his breeder is aware & we followed our vets advise of the 5 min rule off the lead at the beach & then on the lead for the rest of his walks. He did get a bit more than 5min runing around sometimes 

He has mild HD in his left hip which was discoverd when he was 3&half but because of this he has osteoarthritus & problems with his shoulders because he was compensating for his hip & they are more of a problem for him 

All his runing was on sand & still is so god knows what he would have been like if we had'nt followed the 5 min rule.

I wonderd if it could be to do with his position in his mum before he was born he was from a large litter so maybe he got a bit squashed :confused1: My friend just gave birth to her 1st child & he is a big baby my friend is'nt & he has to wear a brace thing for a while as both his hips were dislocated 

If we ever have another puppy I would still do the same but not encourage jumping into the backs of cars or using the stairs although Banjo never went upstairs untill he was well over year old so.................................. luck of the draw maybe


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> And how are you going to tell whether your puppy has HD or not?


Actually, we have a Lab with ED, and we found out he had such a thing when he began limping. His sister is absolutely fine (fingers crossed), and he has shown no signs of problems in that leg since his arthroscopy.

He will almost certainly develop early-onset arthritis, but he is enjoying the walks he always would've had, and we will not stop his enjoyment unless or until he shows any signs of discomfort.

He's on Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements for life, and we hope these will help to stave-off the worst of his issue.



> Actually the article says that exercise should be variable and self regulating - which is not the case on an hour or two walk.


Why not? We have hour or two walks every day, and the dogs are able to rest whenever they like (which they often do - especially if it's hot), and they vary the exercise they get themselves by either playing, sniffing around, or following behind me if they feel the need.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The report did say hip and elbow malformation dyplasia is hereditry. So i suppose if you have a large dog from a breed that have highish average scores i would think it might be wise to watch the levels of exercise. Im not saying you have to keep to the 5min rule to the second but a sensible amount. Large breeds grow so rapidly i wouldnt think it would do the growth plates much good if its overdone.


Agree with that. My Flynn has never had of lead activity, don't think he'd come back and I follwed the 5 min rule but his HD turned out to be hereditary. Having said that none of the rest of his litter are showing any signs, some who didn't follow this rule. A vet once said that Flynn being a big pup from a litter of eight could have developed awkwardly in the womb, add to that the parents above average scores and this could be an added factor to his HD.

So if the parents scores are not good then the likeyhood of the pups developing HD are increased and as we well know even the best scores can throw a case of HD in their offspring, just less likely.

I often wonder if I could have done more to prevent Flynns HD but I followed everything by the book and still got a severe case - who knows?
I'd still do the 5 min thing though with another dog as I know i'd blame myself even more if it developed HD in the future. It's not for long and actually if I hadn't with Flynn I think he'd have been too boistrous, he was a handful even with controlled walks but then lots of Mals are.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I will be honest here. I have definitely not gone by the 5-minute rule at all. The on lead walking was definitely restricted to the 5 minute rule, but off lead walking where Bella could pace herself was often up to half an hour from 4 months when I got her...and by 6 months we were often out for an hour at a time (nto all walking though, a lot of me standing around).

She is only 6.5 kg fully grown...and I would perhaps be more cautious with a large or giant breed.


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## Allana (Jul 7, 2010)

This is very interesting considering we have just got a new pup and i have been thinking about this alot.

Makes interesting reading


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## SDPetcare (Jul 25, 2010)

My parents Wire Fox terrier has HD, he wasn't over excercised as a youngster because he doesn't like to go (looking back we are aware this is a sign something was wrong) he is now 9 (diagnosed by x ray at 6) He still won't walk from home on pavements etc (we think this hurts him) but he will walk if they are on holiday in the caravan and also round country shows etc. He does swim regularlay in the summer but i think his lack of excercise when young didn't help him.
Jessy


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Actually, we have a Lab with ED, and we found out he had such a thing when he began limping. His sister is absolutely fine (fingers crossed), and he has shown no signs of problems in that leg since his arthroscopy.
> 
> He will almost certainly develop early-onset arthritis, but he is enjoying the walks he always would've had, and we will not stop his enjoyment unless or until he shows any signs of discomfort.


Exactly - you can't tell until they are showing clinical signs. Overexercising while a pup will have exacerbate the problem. Many dogs have poor hips and show now clinical signs until old age and arthritis sets in. Your dog had to go through surgery - and because it was successful does that make it ok to risk a puppy?



> but why err on the side of caution if you are not giving a dog the life it deserves by restricting it to anything less than it would normally enjoy, and it goes on to NOT develop anything?


Well, I would have thought that was obvious - because you won't know until too late. No one has suggested not exercising a puppy - that is as bad as too much exercise. It is about moderation. As bad as overexercise is to much rough play, too much playing chase with a ball - it is about being careful and moderate, but coming from a high dog population area, I see so many just taking their puppies out for the length of walks an adult would have and having some kind of guide seems to help them.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I can see the theory of letting them run off lead so they can pace themselves. However problem is with some breeds they dont know when to quit as puppies they would keep going and literally run themselves into the ground. Also when you think about it if your dogs lame the first thing the vet tells you is rest then progress to lead before free running is allowed again. So if you have a breed who dont know when to quit he could do himself damage. A woman over the park had a rottie puppy. He was off lead chasing a ball. Jumped up to catch the ball and did his growth plate. Had to spend several weeks bandaged from hip to foot.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> However problem is with some breeds they dont know when to quit as puppies they would keep going and literally run themselves into the ground.


Couldn't agree more - this needs to be regulated - particularly play with other dogs and especially other puppies.



> He was off lead chasing a ball. Jumped up to catch the ball and did his growth plate. Had to spend several weeks bandaged from hip to foot.


Running and chasing balls and toys puts particular stress on joints and soft bones because of the sudden stopping and turning.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Whoever wrote this should not be generalising in my opinion. For a giant breed that is growing, lots of running and certainly jumping can cause untold damage. A little terrier, on the other hand, could probably cope quite well.

I also read in the newspaper last years that there had been a record number of knee replacements done on joggers in their forties, because of all the years they had spent jogging on hard pavements.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> . A little terrier, on the other hand, could probably cope quite well.


Tell me about it.

WE used to have to shut Rupert in his crate to settle him down or he'd just tear around all the time.

Seems to be chilling out a bit now, although when we're on a walk he won't stop!


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> Whoever wrote this should not be generalising in my opinion. For a giant breed that is growing, lots of running and certainly jumping can cause untold damage.


Can it though? This is the whole point of this topic and the article I pasted. There is apparently no evidence to suggest such "untold damage" can be caused by 'over-exercising' a young pup.



> I also read in the newspaper last years that there had been a record number of knee replacements done on joggers in their forties, because of all the years they had spent jogging on hard pavements.


Things you read in the newspaper should be taken with an extremely large pinch of salt.

This directly contradicts the documentary I watched, and is probably further evidence that people should actually run barefoot instead of wasting their money on expensive running shoes. Our evolution over the past few million years has meant we are 'designed' to run upright.

For any newspaper to publish such a story, it needs to back such claims up with hard, scientific research. I'm not aware of any that says that people who jog are more likely to need joint replacements.

Somebody said this is an interesting discussion, and I couldn't agree more. It's nice to have a sensible discussion without people throwing wobblers or totally misunderstanding what their fellow forum members intend by what they post.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I tend to go by other peoples experiences, experienced breeders views and vets views with most things concerning my dogs - I can't usually make up my mind one way or the other and I never take into account what's in the papers and to some extent what's on the internet. I'd rather go with what a breeder who is experienced in a particular breed says and I know many malamute breedsers, showers and judges that say limited exercise is sensible while the pup is young and bones still delicate.

Sounds right to me.


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## Dot (Jun 23, 2010)

I over exercised my first lab. I thought I was doing the correct thing letting him run around and lots of walks. No one told me about the 5 min rule and I had never heard of it. He suffered from the age of 5 with painful joints and it was heart breaking to watch and know I probably contributed to his pain. May be he would have suffered with his joints anyway but, even so, I think I hastened his decline so why take the risk? I have always used the 5 min rule since. My current boy was a pain to keep entertained but I used clicker training and bits of training rather than take him out for more walks. Even now at 2 years, old he only gets an hour of free running on soft ground each day the rest of the time we play hide and seek and use puzzle games.

I might be wrong, I have no scientific proof, I am only going on personal experience but I would never risk it again.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> This is the whole point of this topic and the article I pasted. There is apparently no evidence to suggest such "untold damage" can be caused by 'over-exercising' a young pup.


Really?

You posted a few extracts of opinions rather then an article (unless I've missed something), but from a scientific point of view (which will the the only one a vet will take), the evidence isn't there because no approved and controlled test has been done that he is aware of. There was research done in Sweden, but for the life of me can't find it on the internet. The difficulty is that the actual causes of HD and ED aren't fully understood yet, but from what research has been done, the conclusion is that while a genetically inherited disease, environmental factors (diet, weight and exercise) play a large part in it's expression.

I'm surprised having already got one dog with ED that you are happy to ignore those conclusions but that is your choice.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I tend to go by other peoples experiences, experienced breeders views and vets views with most things concerning my dogs - I can't usually make up my mind one way or the other and I never take into account what's in the papers and to some extent what's on the internet. I'd rather go with what a breeder who is experienced in a particular breed says and I know many malamute breedsers, showers and judges that say limited exercise is sensible while the pup is young and bones still delicate.
> 
> Sounds right to me.


It would be right if those vets and breeders weren't perpetuating the apparent myth that we're talking about here, and the statements I've posted are from experienced veterinary surgeons remember - one of which explicitly states that there is NO scientific evidence to support the argument that exercise can damage young dogs in any way.

Are bones actually 'delicate' in young pups? That sounds like a statement with no real substance to me. They are probably slightly more flexible, but that could be considered a good thing as the actual bones themselves are less likely to break.

Let's not forget, however, that it's not bones we're talking about here - it's the cartilage that coats the bones where dysplacia develops. Our big boy's cartilage was rough/deformed, and it's this they operated on to remove/smooth out, and it's this that his Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements are now treating.



> **I over exercised my first lab*. I thought I was doing the correct thing letting him run around and lots of walks. No one told me about the 5 min rule and I had never heard of it. He suffered from the age of 5 with painful joints and it was heart breaking to watch and know I probably contributed to his pain. ***Maybe he would have suffered with his joints anyway but, even so, I think I hastened his decline so why take the risk*? I have always used the 5 min rule since. My current boy was a pain to keep entertained but I used clicker training and bits of training rather than take him out for more walks. Even now at 2 years, old he only gets an hour of free running on soft ground each day the rest of the time we play hide and seek and use puzzle games.
> 
> I might be wrong, I have no scientific proof, I am only going on personal experience but I would never risk it again.


*Did you though? This is, again, exactly the point of the topic. According to what I've read, there is no such thing as "over exercising" a puppy, unless we're talking about extremes like running marathons or that puppy being forced to work all day every day from a very early age. The walks that most dogs enjoy are between one and two hours long, and I don't think this can cause any harm.

This is the first time we've experienced ANY joint problems, and we've kept dogs for over twenty years and never restricted their puppyhood in any way. Puppies DO get tired, and they DO self-regulate the type of exercise they give themselves.

**Is it fair on any dogs you have in future to restrict their lives for fear of causing them harm - especially if you are not doing so? I'd much rather my dogs lived a short, fun-packed life, than a life that is longer but full of restrictions.

Both scenarios involve pain for the dog (IF it develops HD/ED), and I'd argue that it's better for the dog to lead a short, fun-filled and active life, than to suffer years and years of treatments and pain but be restricted in his or her quality of life.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Going to a slightly other reason for joint problems other than exercising but i think you may find interesting. I did. There was an article in dogs today the copy of which ive passed on so this from memory. I believe it was by richard allport who is both a conventional and homeopathic vet. It was a study of over 400 golden retrivers a portion of which were neutered and spayed very early and the rest spayed later. They found that the early portion tended to grow taller and lankier than the later ones. The reason being the sex hormones apparently shut off the growth hormones as the dog begins to approach sexual maturity therefore reaching its natural predisposed genetic size. However when you take away the sex hormones too early the growth hormone isnt shut off so they carry on growing what would be past the normal time. Theres apparent evidence this leads to increase in cruiciate and othes skeletal problems. As i say havent got copy now gave it away.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It would be right if those vets and breeders weren't perpetuating the apparent myth that we're talking about here,


So vets are perpetuating the myth. As far as I can see, it is your opinion that it is a myth, not the vets. They have simply stated that there is no scientific evidence (as they should). Realistically there won't be until the disease is fully understood.



> Are bones actually 'delicate' in young pups? That sounds like a statement with no real substance to me.


Are you a vet?



> According to what I've read, there is no such thing as "over exercising" a puppy, unless we're talking about extremes like running marathons or that puppy being forced to work all day every day from a very early age. The walks that most dogs enjoy are between one and two hours long, and I don't think this can cause any harm


.

That is only your opinion though - nothing that you have quoted supports that either.



> **Is it fair on any dogs you have in future to restrict their lives for fear of causing them harm - especially if you are not doing so? I'd much rather my dogs lived a short, fun-packed life, than a life that is longer but full of restrictions.


We are not talking about no exercise, we are talking about sensible exercise for the age of the puppy. I cannot agree that you would rather risk a pup because it can have fun even if it will have a short life than take care and be sensible regarding exercise of a young puppy.



> Both scenarios involve pain for the dog (IF it develops HD/ED), and I'd argue that it's better for the dog to lead a short, fun-filled and active life, than to suffer years and years of treatments and pain but be restricted in his or her quality of life.


No they don't and I think this is where you are misguided. There are plenty of dogs that have HD that are sound and live perfectly normal lives (this is why it is so important to have hips and elbows scored before breeding because a dog can APPEAR sound but still have HD). If just dogs are subjected to excessive exercise while young (and I do agree that NO exercise can be as harmful as too much) then their joints will be put under more pressure and the degenerative changes that occur will happen more rapidly.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

If anybody's "misguided", then it's everybody who thinks it's necessary to restrict puppies in their exercise (this previously included us, and will include us again if evidence to the contrary comes to light) if there is no evidence to suggest that it is necessary to do so.

I'm not claiming expert knowledge of anything - I'm merely quoting snippets from research I've done into the subject.

I think the sensible thing to do (always) is go with the evidence. As there is no evidence to support the claims that exercise in young pups should be restricted (for whatever reason), or that it causes any harm, then I'm not going to give serious consideration to opposing viewpoints unless or until they surface and become hard, scientific facts - especially if listening to such viewpoints means restricting the life our pack enjoys now if it's totally unnecessary to do so.

Since his op, our big lad has shown no signs whatsoever of lameness in either his affected leg or any other legs. Fingers crossed he won't (for a few years at least), and the supplements he's on will hopefully limit any further problems. The specialist vet who dealt with our case said he could return to a completely normal life as soon as his recovery period was over, and this is what we've done and will continue to do.

This will obviously remain an issue that people will deal with in their own way. Some will do what we do, and others will restrict the exercise their pets enjoy. Until evidence that restriction of exercise is necessary appears, I'm erring on the side of a fun-packed, active life for all our dogs.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I'm erring on the side of a fun-packed, active life for all our dogs.


Nobody has said dogs can't have fun packed, active lives, but that caution should be shown when growing, particularly for large breeds during their growth spurts.

Obviously you are entitled to do what you want but I would urge caution about advising others on an open forum. You do, after all, have a dog with joint problems.



> I'm not going to give serious consideration to opposing viewpoints unless or until they surface and become hard, scientific facts - especially if listening to such viewpoints means restricting the life our pack enjoys now if it's totally unnecessary to do so.


While there may not be any research carried out exclusively regarding exercise (such scientific research takes time and probably more importantly, costs money and I suspect there is little funding for it given the complexity of the issue), there is plenty of evidence. You and others can ignore that at your own risk (or should I say your dogs).

Obviously people will make up their own minds, but I can't help feeling that you may be protesting too loudly - perhaps because you have a dog that suffers yourself?


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## Dot (Jun 23, 2010)

I appreciate your point of view, SlingDash and I know there is no scientific proof that a puppy can be over exercised but I believe I over exercised my first lab. I also do not believe that a puppy/dog on restrictive exericise will not have a fun packed life. I am not talking about no exercise, just controlled, there are other activities a dog enjoys besides running and walking. 

A dog does not die suddenly from joint disease, it also does not show any pain until it is in great discomfort so there is no 'short, fun packed life' for a dog that was over exercised as a puppy and goes on to develop joint disease.

I firmly believe, from my own experience, that there is no myth surrounding over-exercising puppies - to me it is a fact and I would always, always stick to the 5 min rule in future.


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## Sam1309 (May 18, 2010)

ohh thanks for this,......

my 6 month old BC get a ten mile walk ever week or two and regularaly gets 5 miles, even after the ten miles he's still rearing to go and won't rest


any body who tried to survie with a 6 month olf bc on the remcommended 30mins a day.. good luck to them


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm concerned that you failed to mention the growth plates. Puppies can damage growth plates very easily, along with other soft cartilage like parts. However they do heal very quickly too.

The concern comes from a deformity of those growth plates healing too quickly, and causing a malformation of the muscle and ligament attatchments around the hip (or elbow or knee etc). If those muscles malform then the hip is pulled/pushed into an abnormal position and so this can help to speed up the process of hip dysplasia. An injured growth plate may also prematurely ossify (turn to real bone) and so cause another form of deformity.

Various animal studies (including humans), show permanent skeletal abnormalities after a fracture or break to a growth plate. There is also plenty of evidence to suggest minor injuries to hips, and limbs in children can cause many health problems as time progresses.

Too much pressure placed on growing bones, stress fractures, aswell as allowing pups up and down stairs or to jump on and off furniture all put the bones at a greater risk. Much safer to follow a restricted, fun and well thought out excercise plan than to risk a puppy being effected for the rest of its life by your bad decisions.


So... as for being a myth, i think not.


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## Dot (Jun 23, 2010)

SlingDash said:


> If anybody's "misguided", then it's everybody who thinks it's necessary to restrict puppies in their exercise (this previously included us, and will include us again if evidence to the contrary comes to light) if there is no evidence to suggest that it is necessary to do so.
> 
> I'm not claiming expert knowledge of anything - I'm merely quoting snippets from research I've done into the subject.
> 
> ...


I don't consider myself 'misguided', I consider I act with caution after over exercising my first lab.

I'm not claiming expert knowledge either I have just learned from experience.

I had all the evidence I needed from watching my first lab, wouldn't risk it again.

I don't really think the 5 min rule does restrict a puppy, there are many other activities a puppy/dog enjoys. My current boy has a fun packed life which does not include miles and miles of running/walking, I consider he has enough exercise and I don't really need to read a scientific report on 'is it possible to over exercise puppies' because I firmly believe you can - just as you believe you can't.


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## ibbica (Aug 9, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> There was research done in Sweden, but for the life of me can't find it on the internet.


Here you go:

Diet, Exercise, and Weight as Risk Factors in Hip Dysplasia and Elbow Arthrosis in Labrador Retrievers -- Sallander et al. 136 (7): 2050S -- Journal of Nutrition

Sallander MH, Hedhammar A, Trogen ME. 2006. Diet, exercise, and weight as risk factors in hip dysplasia and elbow arthrosis in Labrador Retrievers. J Nutr. 136(7 Suppl):2050S-2052S.

From the Results section of that article (HD = hip dysplasia, EA = elbow arthritis, OR = "odds ratio" where there was a significant difference from control dogs):

"Identified risk factors for both HD and EA were being exercised by running after balls and sticks thrown by the owner (P < 0.016, OR = 2.4, 95% CI 2.22.6 for HD; P < 0.014, OR = 3.2, CI 3.03.5 for EA). For HD, 54 and 35% of cases and controls performed the activity, and, for EA, 52 and 34% of cases and controls performed the activity, respectively."


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ask any newfoundland owner or breeder and they will tell you that you have to be extremely careful with them when they are growing. They reach two thirds of their adult size by the time they are eight months old and should not be allowed to run for more than five or ten minutes, nor allowed to climb stairs, jump in cars or anything else of that nature. I was extremely careful with Joshua, but he still got arthritis at 19 months; I wonder how much worse that would be if I had done as suggested. He wouldn't have stopped running of his own accord.

As to the newspaper article about joint replacements in joggers, it was a local Cambridge paper and the information and statistics came from Addenbrookes hospital.

I read an article recently by a panel of "experts" telling me my dog was safer without vaccinations, that the need to vaccinate was a myth perpetuated by vets for the money from the drug companies.

Should I believe that as well and not bother? Half the time these statistics and scientific proof is only someone's opinion, and I have one of those of my own.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ive never stuck to the 5min rule with any of my springers, totally unrealistic, 15 minutes for a 3 month springer they would be climbing the walls. 

My used to go crazy when their walks were due charging around the house under the tables, crashing into furniture i think they can do much more harm that way, mine were and still are excercised mainly on grass and when they were pups, kept off very uneven surfaces, flat grass for about 30minutes i would say we did, when they were showing tiredness by this time and mine have never suffered any joint problems at all.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Ive never stuck to the 5min rule with any of my springers, totally unrealistic, 15 minutes for a 3 month springer they would be climbing the walls.
> 
> My used to go crazy when their walks were due charging around the house under the tables, crashing into furniture i think they can do much more harm that way, mine were and still are excercised mainly on grass and when they were pups, kept off very uneven surfaces, flat grass for about 30minutes i would say we did, when they were showing tiredness by this time and mine have never suffered any joint problems at all.


Which goes to prove my point about generalisations. I wouldn't have thought 5 minutes per month of life to be much use to a springer, either, or a border collie or any of those other active breeds. But you can't treat a giant breed the same.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Which goes to prove my point about generalisations. I wouldn't have thought 5 minutes per month of life to be much use to a springer, either, or a border collie or any of those other active breeds. But you can't treat a giant breed the same.


No certainly not i do agree with being carefull with giant breeds, ive never had one and never known anyone with one until a couple of years ago and i was suprised how carefull you have to be with a lot of things makes sense though.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It doesn't mean five mins per day, just five mins per walk and no pup can walk outside til all jabs have been done so at the start it's fifteen mins or so - no hardship really! 

Since pups need lots of other training which is equally important, they can get plenty of mental stimulation in between walks which they love (my dogs still do) and that tires them out too.

Don't think you can compare a springer to a newfie, mal or sibe - now there's an active, energetic dog if ever i've seen one, yet I know people with sibes who've done the five min rule with pups and had no problems "entertaining" them in other ways.

When Flynn was on crate rest for six weeks and still now, as his exercise is limited while he recovers i've had to tire him out metally, not easy at times, especially as he had to be sitting or lying down but was done and he never wanted to climb the walls despite being a young active mal. Admit he was on sedatives but isn't now, so I fill in time with mental exercise - I can't exercise him too much just yet so i've no choice.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The report did say hip and elbow malformation dyplasia is hereditry. So i suppose if you have a large dog from a breed that have highish average scores i would think it might be wise to watch the levels of exercise. Im not saying you have to keep to the 5min rule to the second but a sensible amount. Large breeds grow so rapidly i wouldnt think it would do the growth plates much good if its overdone.


You might want to study the 60K hipscored records in Labs before making a judgement on that - because you will find that a far larger element of HD is environmental than you would assume - and this is not just exercise - but diet as well.

I can only assume that this thread is at least in part, in response to my comment on the 5 minute rule after your thread about your dog's ED.

I know where I sit - knowing I have done everything in my power to ensure that my dogs grow up healthily with a life free from surgery and pain - rather than gloss over it and have a dog needing surgery and meds for the rest of it's life. .

Labs in particular are VERY GOOD at not displaying pain - and will continue regardless - and yes, I have a lab with poor hipscores and a bad knee -so I know exactly what they can be like - amazingly - not a hint of a hereditary problem in over 10 generations - mmmmmm

5 minutes per month of their life for the first 12 months is hardly a hardship - coupled with socialisation etc a dog can be out for considerably longer than the 15 minutes you start off with.

==================================

You cannot cause HD / ED / OCD in a dog who isn't predisposed to it - you can prevent / reduce the potential damage caused in a dog that is.

Unfortunately, in the absence of a DNA test - you have absolutely NO way of knowing whether your dog is predisposed to HD / ED or OCD or not.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

I know Im spotty but can I just check that the 5min rule is just time off the lead


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I personally feel that while expert opinions are worth a read, people should use common sense when deciding what is right for their pups.

Pups bones are still growing when they are young, of course over doing things will result in problems for them later in life at least. As pet owners we should do everything we can to prevent them suffering in old age. Since we control everything they do, we are responsible for this too. 

A softer growth plate is not going to take a continuous hammering of a long walk anywhere near as well as an adults, as it's still soft! It's just common sense!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> I know Im spotty but can I just check that the 5min rule is just time off the lead


No - this is actually the on-lead time.

the guideline is about the time dogs are subjected to hard onlead walking - whatever surface it might be on.

The theory being, when they play or run loose - if they are tired, they will stop (although not necessarily in multiple dog households!!) - but when. the dog is on lead - it will continue going to please it's owner.

A lot of people get large breed puppies and seem to think there is a need to 'walk it's legs off' to stop it getting up to mischief.

I do limit my dogs onlead activities when they are young - all my dogs - including the one with bad hips - are well muscled and solid with no excess fat - and very happy 

Had I have not restricted my girls exercise, who is to say she wouldn't have needed THR at 12 months? but she is well muscled and they hold everything firmly in place.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

swarthy said:


> No - this is actually the on-lead time.
> 
> the guideline is about the time dogs are subjected to hard onlead walking - whatever surface it might be on.
> 
> ...


:scared: our vet told us 5min per month of age off the lead & as much as we liked on not that we took him to far but   that maybe why Banjo is the only one from his litter with HD & his other problems :confused1: god I hope not


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> :scared: our vet told us 5min per month of age off the lead & as much as we liked on not that we took him to far but   that maybe why Banjo is the only one from his litter with HD & his other problems :confused1: god I hope not


In my experience, vets are not all that familiar with giant breeds and tend to give advice based on any breed. When Joshua was 8 weeks and went for his vaccination, our vet, knowing we had Ferdie told me to "let them play rough" WTF? A lady on another forum was told by her vet to walk her 3 month old puppy for an hour and half! You can't always listen to vets, especially if you have knowledge of your breed. They see all sorts of different dogs and sometimes don't seem to realise the difference.

I know what it is like to blame yourself for things, like your dog's hd. I have been over and over what I could have done to prevent Joshua's arthritis, even looked through all the videos I took of him as a puppy, but it is no good blaming yourself. You just have to carry on, face facts and do what is best for them.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> :scared: our vet told us 5min per month of age off the lead & as much as we liked on not that we took him to far but   that maybe why Banjo is the only one from his litter with HD & his other problems :confused1: god I hope not


 Sorry.

Do read what I said above however - you cannot cause HD in a dog that isn't genetically disposed to it - this is why hipscoring is so important - because up to a point, reasonable scoring parents produce less risk of a dog developing a problem - they don't remove it. High scoring parents presents a higher risk of more offspring being affected.

Because HD and ED don't always manifest themselves physically in a dog - the scores tell us a lot - and time does not have a significant negative impact on a good pair of hips - This is borne out by the database records from all the older dogs scored, particularly in the early years of the scheme.

==========================

I wasn't aware that anyone was generalising across breeds - certainly the 5 minute rule (guideline really) is recommended for my own breed - I can't speak for any others - although I would envisage that most large breeds offer a potential for problems through overexercise and fast growth.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

What I fail to understand in all of this is we are only talking about limiting to a certain extent for the first 12 months or so, not the dogs entire life. It may not have been proven that too much exercise can lead to dysplasia but it also hasn't been disproven, so for my dogs sakes I took the caution of some limitation just in case.

Also there is no comparison with exercise in an adult dog following surgery - I too have been told by Noel Fitzpatrick that once fully recovered Flynn can go on to lead and active full life and funtion like any other dog, he's only being restricted for a few months out of necessity.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> our vet told us 5min per month of age off the lead & as much as we liked on not that we took him to far but that maybe why Banjo is the only one from his litter with HD & his other problems god I hope not


I'm not sure what that means.

First you say you followed the vet's advice about off-lead exercise, then you say he didn't go far when he was on-lead anyway, and you end up by suggesting that these restrictions may have caused his hip dysplacia...? :confused1:

Remember that there is ZERO evidence to suggest that hip (or elbow) dysplacia is CAUSED by strenuous exercise when a puppy is young - and this is all this topic's addresing. He was going to develop it at some point anyway, no matter how much (or little) he was exercised when he was a puppy.

This topic seems to have got somewhat bogged down with dogs that already have hip/elbow dysplacia, and how they should be treated, when it is really only about the apparent myth that they need to be restricted when they are pups, so as to prevent HD/ED from developing in the first place.

Having had a diagnosis of ED, and a subsequent operation for it, we are going along with what our specialist vet said at our follow-up appointment - i.e. that our big lad can now live a normal life with normal exercise. We see no reason to change anything.

He, too, has enormous muscles and is as fit as a fiddle. He's on Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements for life, and he's fed the very best food we can find (another controversial topic!), so hopefully he'll be fine until he gets an awful lot older.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I was talking about the original post, about puppies not being affected by too much exercise. This is to me a generalisation, and a dangerous one. Different breeds have different needs, simple as that.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i never did the 5 minute rule with either my GSP or my Sibes, tbh i'd never even heard of it dont know if ive just been lucky because not one of them have suffered for it and im talking about 6 dogs...my GSP lived to be almost 16 and only in her last few months was she unstable on her legs, so i do think breeding from dogs with good hips is the most important factor(i understand that giant breeds need more care tho).... just to add i was very careful about introducing the huskies to pulling in harness i was very aware that i could do a lot of damage if they did too much too young.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

No - we'd never heard of it either.

And as I said before, we certainly have never followed it, and this is the ONLY time we've ever had any joint problems in any of our dogs past or present.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Also remember that there is *ZERO* evidence to suggest that over exercise can't add to dysplasia.

I would think that after surgery a dog *should* be able to function properly, if not then my op cost £5,500 for nothing!


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

SlingDash said:


> I'm not sure what that means.
> 
> First you say you followed the vet's advice about off-lead exercise, then you say he didn't go far when he was on-lead anyway, and you end up by suggesting that these restrictions may have caused his hip dysplacia...? :confused1:
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SlingDash said:


> Remember that there is ZERO evidence to suggest that hip (or elbow) dysplacia is CAUSED by strenuous exercise when a puppy is young - and this is all this topic's addresing. He was going to develop it at some point anyway, no matter how much (or little) he was exercised when he was a puppy.


You've been sent ONE article and suddenly you know more than every breeder, specialist and expert in the world - because it's hardly just a 'British' thing 

It is comments like this that do lead people to take less care -

It doesn't matter what happens in life, you will wonder what if - if a bitch dies during whelping, if a child is sick, if an adult gets sick, if an accident happens, if someone has a miscarriage, if Princess Di had never met Prince Charles, if my father had fought back after his surgery.................

We are humans - and this is normal part of human nature pretty much whatever your culture or background.

If we buy a dog from un hipscored parents - and it develops a problem - we think that problem will be solved by doing it differently next time - the RISK will be significantly reduced - but there is no guarantee.

======================

My girl has evidence of an early fracture on one of her hips from her antics - had she been heavily lead walked on a regular basis - it's quite probable she might not even be with us any more and would most definitely have required massive surgical intervention.

========================

No-one can force anyone to do something with their dog - that's your prerogative - but please don't act like you are the authority on the subject over and above people who have been operating in this area for many years -nobody made up these guidelines to p*ss off large breed puppy owners - they were made to try and save both the dog and the owners from considerable heartache and expense.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Also remember that there is *ZERO* evidence to suggest that over exercise can't add to dysplasia.
> 
> I would think that after surgery a dog *should* be able to function properly, if not then my op cost £5,500 for nothing!


I DO know of a number of dogs who have had to have subsequent surgery / new hips - don't want to worry you - but it does happen 

Charlie on our Lab Health site is on his third or fourth operation now  Likewise - Pudsey also had to have subsequent surgery - he has sadly died from an unrelated condition


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Sorry its been a long day  lest just say at 12 weeks he was at the beach 15 - 20 min off the lead then probably 30 min to an hour on the lead but not every day  we dont have a garden so no charging around that much in the house.
> 
> I would hate to think he is suffering now because of us


Don't worry we always blame ourselves - it's just what we do! 

Done the same with Flynn.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I DO know of a number of dogs who have had to have subsequent surgery / new hips - don't want to worry you - but it does happen
> 
> Charlie on our Lab Health site is on his third or fourth operation now  Likewise - Pudsey also had to have subsequent surgery - he has sadly died from an unrelated condition


It better not - I didn't go to The bionic Vet for nowt - he assured me that Flynns implant is for life and as the bone has grown onto it (BFX) would never need replacing!

Of course there will always be a risk of dislocation, just like in humans but he said that is rare after the first six months - just have to be careful for now!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> It better not - I didn't go to The bionic Vet for nowt - he assured me that Flynns implant is for life and as the bone has grown onto it (BFX) would never need replacing!
> 
> Of course there will always be a risk of dislocation, just like in humans but he said that is rare after the first six months - just have to be careful for now!


I hope it is - and I know I have approached you about covering your boys story on the site.

I am sure that things are moving along all the time - - it would be interesting to bring a group of people together to find out more about their experiences, methods used and the various vets - and the long term prognosis.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> You've been sent ONE article and suddenly you know more than every breeder, specialist and expert in the world...





> ...please don't act like you are the authority on the subject over and above people who have been operating in this area for many years


It is not just one article I have read. I could've filled the forum with copy and paste jobs, but thought I'd just post a few of the comments I'd found for the benefit of these discussions. It would be interesting to see a peer reviewed paper which states that joint disease is caused by extreme exercise in young dogs, but until that can be provided, I think it should be considered a myth. That's my non-expert opinion - that's all.

When have I said I know more than any breeder, specialist and expert in the world? I stated directly that I am no expert only a couple of posts ago.

Please don't accuse me of proclaiming things that I have expressly stated I am not.



> nobody made up these guidelines to p*ss off large breed puppy owners


If it IS a myth that *extreme* exercise when puppies are very young CAUSES hip or elbow dysplacia, then it is these very guidelines that are misguided, unnecessary and causing 'harm' to dogs by way of their owners forcibly restricting their fun/play times - which, let's face it, are already not all they could be for a very great many dogs in the world.

It's just a discussion. I'm actually not swayed by either argument. I'm sticking with evidence until something concrete comes along, and I think that is the best way to proceed with most things in life.

All we can do is follow what our vet said after our big lad had fully recovered from his operation, but if evidence to the contrary comes to light, then we'd be the virst in line to change our minds - and his lifestyle.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I hope it is - and I know I have approached you about covering your boys story on the site.
> 
> I am sure that things are moving along all the time - - it would be interesting to bring a group of people together to find out more about their experiences, methods used and the various vets - and the long term prognosis.


That would be so interesting - the only one I managed to find was a diary of an Akita in America - went up to six years after surgery and still doing great. Wonder if she'll update each year - hope so.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Don't worry we always blame ourselves - it's just what we do!
> 
> Done the same with Flynn.


Yes spent ages being upset, angry & then looking into the why's 

I suppose its a case of he had the HD in his hip & possibly to much excersise has casued his osteoarthritus etc which are the main problems 

We spent more time looking into the problems the breed could have, deafness & urinary stone forming  at least he dose'nt have thoses, well except selective deafness


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SlingDash said:


> When have I said I know more than any breeder, specialist and expert in the world? I stated directly that I am no expert only a couple of posts ago.
> 
> Please don't accuse me of proclaiming things that I have expressly stated I am not


 You didn't say this then?

Originally Posted by SlingDash 
Remember that there is ZERO evidence to suggest that hip (or elbow) dysplacia is CAUSED by strenuous exercise when a puppy is young - and this is all this topic's addresing.

=========================

People read these forums and cherry pick the bits they want to suit them - you very clearly said there is ZERO evidence - your words - not mine

=========================

ETA - there is more than one type of ED - some are caused later on - others can be caused by over-exercise and diet - so if your dog has the latter - then NO - he may not have developed it.

A dog has to be predisposed to HD/ED/OCD in order to develop it - but it can be prevented in SOME instances and the damage CAN be reduced in some instances by careful exercise as a pup - as I believe is the case with my own girl with moderate dysplasia.

No - it doesn't guarantee that he wouldn't have developed it - but - like anything - it is all about risk - me personally, I would like to know that I have done my utmost to reduce the RISK of problems.

====================

ETA - Interesting to note that there is 'no such thing' as congenital unilateral HD - wonder if that is the same for ED? - anyone know? would make sense -


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

One thing I will say is that Flynn has no signs of arthritis at all even though he has severe dysplasia (hip score 55) - could this be because I limited his exercise? we'll never know as there isn't anything to compare it with but at least he doesn't have to deal with another condition and has a good foundation for his new hip to embed and the other one later on. I will continue to limit his exercise until he has the other hip done next year just in case any more damage could be done.

A few months of limitations is a small price to pay compared to the rest of his life.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

As i said in my earlier posts i didnt stick to the 5 min rule, thats not to say i would argue the fact that too much exercise for a young pup is, could be damaging, although i didnt stick to the rule i was sensible and didnt take them over rough or hard ground.

I do wonder though how much we take into our own hands with animals and forget their instincts, dont watch and take notice of what they know, sense and are telling us, ime sure a young pup/dog do know their limitations and would slow down, lie down if they had, had enough, yes even springers that do tend to oblivious to anything other than what they are focused on and there is no other speed but but 100 mph.

I say this as when Harvey tore his cruciate at 9 months the vet was very concerned as he didnt want to opt straight away for surgery because he was so young, still a growing puppy, so he was put on meds and i was told very gentle lead walks for 2 weeks he wanted to try self heal, then come back and see him. This was a nightmare he was used to off lead walks running around and "working" as far as he was concerned, so he was pulling on the lead, legs splayed apart it was so scarey to think of the further damage he could have done, no way was he having gentle walks this way yes he was on lead but no way was it gentle. So i let him off, and tbh and i know its hard to believe with a springer but he was "gentle walking", he wasnt racing through the undergrowth jumping around, he knew his limitations I just didnt think he had any tbh. So i do think we under estimate just how much they are in tune with their own bodies and we need to take a step back sometimes and let them use those instincts, obviously in some cases with a little guidence from us.


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## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

This has always scared me! 

Our pup is now 20 weeks old and i'm am constantly worrying over whether we have done too much! 

I tend to go by her judgment. If she starts getting tired I pick her up and we have a rest or go home. If she's bombing round the field at 100 miles an hour and having a good time then I see no reason to stop her. 

I always take my little puppy carrying bag when we go out for the day so that I can pop her in and carry her if things get too much. I also find it's quite nice to walk her somewhere and stop to have a meal whilst she sleep on my lap. If she hadn't done a good walk first, I doubt she would be so good at the dinner table! 

The problem for me is what counts as 'Extreme' exercise. I've never walked her until she's dropped and I think so long as i'm sensitive to how she's keeping up then i'm not doing anything to hurt her. Still makes me worry though!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> So i do think we under estimate just how much they are in tune with their own bodies and we need to take a step back sometimes and let them use those instincts, obviously in some cases with a little guidence from us.


I disagree having seen completely dysplastic severely, evidently in pain, limping pups simply refusing to give up.

On a one on one yes, I would be inclined to agree, or maybe with some other breeds - but with Labs, the minute you have more than one dog involved, the dynamics change - my youngsters will run and run if I let them - but the minute I horn them in - they are fasto within seconds.

I've got a bitch here who damaged her knee last year - she has evidence of a fracture on her hip when she was a pup - simply NOTHING stops her - she is still the first and fastest of my dogs - gammy leg and all :scared:



Lady3131 said:


> This has always scared me!


Don't you have a small dog? if you have a breed where HD / ED or other joint problems are a documented problem, then just be sensible (which everyone should be anyway) - but it's more in breeds that are predisposed to these problems you have to be more cautious with.


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## Piglet1 (Apr 12, 2010)

My whippet is now 7 months and we go out for an hour or even 2 at the weekend but not this amount every day. He is on and off the lead and is still runnning around even when we get home.
Not sure if this is advisable or not but he seems to be thriving!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

SlingDash said:


> It depends what you mean by "damaging". It may not be quite so comfortable to run on, but is it doing any actual harm to your body? Most likely not, because we (and dogs) are 'designed' to run.


We are not designed to run in this world. A link off google is unlikely to change my mind on this seeing as my Dad is a podiatrist, completes numerous surgeries due to injuries from 'running', and had/has to do a hell of a lot of research for his degree and CPD.

I think at the sheer rate bigger dogs grow its an unnecessary risk for them. Its hard surfaces which may cause problems I'd happily let my dog go play as long as he likes alone on soft ground (ie. I would not walk him on it via forced exercise), but not on hard, especially when young. Plenty of horse folk don't even trot their horses with someone on board on tarmac for fear of concussion in the joints. Naturally sure, but in a man made world with concrete and tarmac everywhere no one is naturally supposed to 'run' and it can be damaging for all, old and young alike.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> So i do think we under estimate just how much they are in tune with their own bodies and we need to take a step back sometimes and let them use those instincts, obviously in some cases with a little guidence from us.


Disagree with this a tonne. I know plenty of animals, mostly dogs and horses, who have had severe injuries and had to be kept crated or on box rest purely because they wanted to run but would do an immense amount of damage if they had. Not sure if you saw the bionic vet but there was one episode with a black dog Flight, who had hip surgery or knee surgery and he was SO happy to see his owner he kept nearly doing himself in and the dog and owner had to be separated, I don't think they are in tune at all for 9/10 of them. Animals can hide pain so much more than people its unreal, and so much more damage can be done because of that. My friend's puppy would play 24/7 with my adult dog and would only calm down when we took my dog away, literally he would never ever have stopped playing. My dog is 30kgs and this pup was as little as 8kgs when they first met I'm pretty sure that pup didn't know his limit when my dog was around, but he didn't half hit the deck when my boy left..!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

In light of this 'myth' flying around about exercise not impacting on the joints of a large breed puppy - thought I would have a nosy see what the British Veterinary Association had to say on the matter.

Oops!!!

"_*The environment within which the dog is raised, including the type and intensity of exercise, growth rate and body weight are significant influences*_"

So thought I would look a bit further, just a couple of other references from the 228K found - sorry - didn't have time to go through them all - pity I don't have time to go to the library - I love libraries and I'm sure I can find enough journals and books on the subject to keep me amused for months. 

*On the other hand, some dogs acquire hip dysplasia due to too much exercise*. There are dog breeds that are built for certain jobs, such as sled running. Some dogs, especially the mixed breeds, have muscles or bones that are not as strong, and their masters force them to do manual labor. Such dogs are more prone to developing hip dysplasia because of the intense exercise load and the strains that their legs have to go through every day.
Causes Of Hip Dysplasia In Dogs - What Causes Canine Hip Dysplasia?

*Increased activity has been associated with increased likelihood of developing hip dysplasia. Possibly *increased activity exposes the animal to increased chance of injury, or to excessive biomechanical forces which alter the stability of the hip joints. 
PROVET HEALTHCARE INFORMATION - Hip dysplasia

The cause of hip dysplasia is not fully understood. Certainly there is a complex genetic basis and it is likely that several different genes are involved. *It is also likely that environmental factors (exercise, growth rate, nutrition) play a role and obesity will worsen the condition*. At Liverpool we are investigating the genetic basis of the disease in collaboration with colleagues at CIGMA at the University of Manchester.
Hip dysplasia - SMALL ANIMAL TEACHING HOSPITAL - University of Liverpool

*Excessive amounts of exercise can also put too much strain on those growing bones, joints and ligaments. This can cause damage and in pups who have the predisposition to canine hip dysplasia it can trigger symptoms of the disease. *
Hip Dysplasia In Dogs - The Causes And Prevention Of Canine Hip Dysplasia

Environmental factors also play a role in the development of dysplasia *including diet, weight gain and exercise.*
Hip Dysplasia in dogs | Vetwest Animal Hospitals

*Exercise *
For young growing puppies especially those who are predisposed to hip dysplasia, the type and the amount of exercise is important. *Any activities that put a lot of force on the joints are not good*. One such activity is playing Frisbee. 
*For dogs prone to hip dysplasia, exercise should be moderate and focused on developing, strengthening, and maintaining good muscle mass, such as running and swimming.*
Hip Dysplasia in Dogs | Dog Hip Dysplasia Treatment

*Play and Exercise*
Exercise is also important. Your pup needs to be active, but rigorous running or extensive play should be avoided. Long walks, jogging, or stressful activities like Frisbee or agility that require jumping should be avoided until the puppy is at least two years of age. *Too much stress on a growing skeleton can lead to hip problems later in life.*Causes of hip dysplasia in dogs - by Megan Kingsley - Helium

====================

That's the problem with research papers and information - we can read the information and analyse the statistics and make them 'say' what we want them to and interpret them in the way which fits what we want to read.

It is very clear that, in reality, we don't know the full causes of HD - what we DO KNOW is that genetics do play a role but the mode of inheritance is unclear - but we do know that by breeding from dogs with reasonable hipscores we can over time reduce problems and the risk of problems within a breed.

We also know that the other key factors which play a role are diet and exercise - IF the dog is genetically predisposed to it.

Taking all research papers out of the equation and thinking about it in simple terms

A dog has poor hipsockets or a poor fitting femur - the bones and joints are soft - excessive frequent impact on those joints through walking, jumping, running etc MUST have an effect on joints - if you had a broken ankle or a fractured kneck of femur - you wouldn't go for a 10 mile jog every day because the stress would undoubtedly damage the injury more - a dog's dodgy hip is pretty much the same.

Once the joints have settled and the dog is grown - the impact on these joints may still be significant - but unlikely to cause the same level of damage as when the pup is still growing.

Stating you may have raised 100 dogs in the same manner means nothing - because the point is - you do not know if the dog is genetically predisposed to problems until it is too late - chances are either those dogs weren't predisposed to it - or have dysplasia with no symptoms - more common than you might realise - I've seen dogs with hipscores in the 90's + who move like a dream and give no hint of pain, but you wouldn't breed from them as the risks are too high.

Why would you place a member of your family at risk by not protecting them when they can't do it for themselves?

The only way to know if your dog's joints are good is to have them x-rayed by a specialist who knows what they are doing - and submit them to the BVA panel for scoring - a lot of people might be shocked - some will be pleasantly surprised - poor movement doesn't always go in hand with dodgy hips.


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## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

I do have a small dog but Poms are very susceptible to slipping patellas and knee problems so we have been warned not to over exercise them or let them jump from high things whilst being a puppy.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

SlingDash said:


> It depends what you mean by "damaging". It may not be quite so comfortable to run on, but is it doing any actual harm to your body? Most likely not, because we (and dogs) are 'designed' to run.


Don't a lot of joggers and runners who train on sidewalks and roads, rather than tracks and grassy areas tend to develop knee problems and shin splints?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Lady3131 said:


> I do have a small dog but Poms are very susceptible to slipping patellas and knee problems so we have been warned not to over exercise them or let them jump from high things whilst being a puppy.


The trick there (having a dog with a dodgy knee in a breed not susceptible to it ) is to avoid things which may result in awkward twisting movements.

Ironically - for my girl with the bad knee and hips - the recommended treatment is regular good hard onlead street walking - but no more hoolying around on the beach for her 

I can't speak for small dogs, but if there is a weakness in the knees - you will see it - as when looking at the rear end when the dog is standing, the legs give a sort of 'bowed' appearance.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

I never followed the 5 min rule, i never knew about it til kira was 8/9 months. I cant imagine being able to follow it with a sibe :scared: :lol:

Havent read through the whole thread, but saw in the 1st couple of pages people talking about HD and over exercise, when asking about hipscoreing and wokring my 2, I was actually told that it is recommended to work sibes with HD, as it builds up the muscle mass around the joints which will help to support the joint


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

sid&kira said:


> I was actually told that it is recommended to work sibes with HD, as it builds up the muscle mass around the joints which will help to support the joint


I have said above it is ironic that one of the treatments for my girl is the very thing which would cause her a problem.

It is surprisingly often not uncommon that the cause of some ailments can also be the treatment / cure for them.

No-one is saying dogs shouldn't be exercised - we are talking about puppies here and being sensible in terms of exercise to reduce the risk of HD and other joint related problems.

You CANNOT cause HD in a dog that isn't genetically predisposed to it - however, the issue with large dogs is that we have no idea of knowing which dogs these area - you can however, in some instances, prevent it.

Also, as above - some dogs can have terrible hips and exhibit no signs or symptoms - which is why hipscoring is so important for breeding.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

So Harvey tore his cruciate at 9 months - could that have been because his exercise wasn't limited, wouldn't it be best to not have that condition at all? Doesn't seem to me that he knew his limitations at all THB! 

If Flynn hadn't been crate rested he would most certainly have damaged his new hip - just like Flight the Lab would have done when he was leaving Fitzpatrick's in the TV programme. I think we sometimes credit our dogs with too much foresight when it's we who have that abilty and we who must act on behalf of our dogs for their safety - just as we do by putting a collar and lead on them. Instinct doesn't tell them to keep away from traffic no more than it does to calm down or they may damage themselves - that's up to us!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Malmum said:


> So Harvey tore his cruciate at 9 months - could that have been because his exercise wasn't limited, wouldn't it be best to not have that condition at all? Doesn't seem to me that he knew his limitations at all THB!
> 
> If Flynn hadn't been crate rested he would most certainly have damaged his new hip - just like Flight the Lab would have done when he was leaving Fitzpatrick's in the TV programme. I think we sometimes credit our dogs with too much foresight when it's we who have that abilty and we who must act on behalf of our dogs for their safety - just as we do by putting a collar and lead on them. Instinct doesn't tell them to keep away from traffic no more than it does to calm down or they may damage themselves - that's up to us!


No i was meaning he sempt to know his limitations when/after it was torn,he was obviously in discomfort and would only do when off lead as much as he felt comfortable with.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> No i was meaning he sempt to know his limitations when/after it was torn,he was obviously in discomfort and would only do when off lead as much as he felt comfortable with.


You are lucky - because a LOT of dogs simply do not know their limitations - mine were out playing earlier - and would have happily gone on - I dragged them in - not heard a peep out of them since - they are all spark out


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

swarthy said:


> You are lucky - because a LOT of dogs simply do not know their limitations - mine were out playing earlier - and would have happily gone on - I dragged them in - not heard a peep out of them since - they are all spark out


Generally mine go on and on as springers do, but as pups i didnt over walk them but definely longer than the 5 minute rule, i really do think to an extent a pup will lie down or just stop i think they will only do too much if forced to.
I was reassured when harvey was hurt after the first time i was forced to let him off lead that he wouldnt do too much.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> No i was meaning he sempt to know his limitations when/after it was torn,he was obviously in discomfort and would only do when off lead as much as he felt comfortable with.


Thanks for that but I was referring to the original accident regarding limited exercise where he tore the cruciate - not after. Glad he didn't need an op as I know it takes ages to heal and repair.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Thanks for that but I was referring to the original accident regarding limited exercise where he tore the cruciate - not after. Glad he didn't need an op as I know it takes ages to heal and repair.


He was really lucky, did so well and he has never had a problem, luckily as he has got older hes stayed slim which ime sure has helped always had good exercise hes 10 now and soo fit for his age, so yes he was lucky. When he originaly did it, we have a hedge that divides 2 playing fields he went in there just sniffing around and came out limping so wether it was a little uneven and the way he twisted his leg we will never know, he limped for about the next day and sempt fine then we realised he wasnt putting his paw fully down took him to the vets and torn cruciate was found.


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

> People read these forums and cherry pick the bits they want to suit them - you very clearly said there is ZERO evidence - your words - not mine


Not my words, but the words of several veterinary surgeons that I quoted in the very first post of this thread.

You could argue that these vets who are "unaware" of such evidence linking over-exercise to joint problems are not saying there is none, but surely they (and everybody else in the field) would know about it if there was, and it would've been widely publicised.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Also, as above - some dogs can have terrible hips and exhibit no signs or symptoms - which is why hipscoring is so important for breeding.


I haven't read this thread and this may be a ridiculously thick question (I seem to be losing the plot these last few days lol) but - if the dog has no signs or symptoms, and leads a long and healthy life even though its hips show HD on x-ray - why shouldn't this dog be bred from? He/she may produce pups who live long and healthy lives with no signs or symptoms, so whats the problem?


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

So some dogs WITH HD/ED show absolutely no signs whatsoever of having it? Not sure how true that is but, as I've said before, I'm far from being an expert on this subject.

Surely having either HD or ED will mean the dog in question exhibiting a certain level of symptoms? It almost certainly will at some point, surely, even if it is only in old age?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't think so as my Flynns hip score was 55 and he showed obvious signs from just over one year old - where as the highest scoring Mal in the Uk - score 69 - has been worked for most of his life and been quite able. He's getting on now so is taking it easy. 

Noel Fitzpatrick said you can't tell by hip scores only x rays and that the above dog is a prime example of that. It could be that his norberg angle was in a better position than Flynns, all the same he's been a strong old lad and had a wonderful working life.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Malmum said:


> he's been a strong old lad and had a wonderful working life.


so could he be bred from?


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

Surely it's best to 'breed-out' the bad genes that cause hip/elbow dysplacia in certain breeds, even if some dogs can live with no symptoms? surely the majority WILL show symptoms at some point?

Our big lad is still 'entire', but there's no way I'd ever dream of breeding from him due to the fact that he has elbow dysplacia. I think it'd be thoroughly irresponsible to do so.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> so could he be bred from?


It is surely not a question of could he be bred from, but rather of should he be? The answer is no. With a high hip score he is far more likely to pass the condition on his pups, who may not be as lucky as him. And if someone else comes along and breeds from those pups, and so on, you are going to have a whole line of dogs with hip problems.

If you buy a big, pedigree dog, one of the first things you should check is the parents' hipscore. If it is too high, leave the pups alone and find a better litter.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> so could he be bred from?


No no no - he can pass it on to his offspring and even though he has coped with it there nothing to say they could.

My Flynn was not of my breeding - long story - while in hosp Marts and Kali "got together" and I wasn't told as sitter thought they didn't tie so no pups! 
Anyhow, once I knew I hip sored dad (28 - should be lower than 13) and later x rayed mum - slight dysplasia. The eight pups that followed, now just over 2 1/2, only one so far has shown dysplasia - Flynn and very bad too. Chances are all have some degree and who knows what the future holds. Anyhow none can be bred from and are all now neutered and the one girl spayed as are mum and dad.

Although Flynns hip replacement has been a dream he could not - i'm sure - have lived long without as he'd have been crippled at an early age. Mum and dad passed on HD to the litter and i'm hoping against hope that my Flynn is the only one severely affected. A real concience pricker that! 

Just to add, mum and dad don't show signs of HD but the x rays told a different story - looking at Flynn you an see how bad it is to breed without health testing.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Cheers for the replies, sorry for hijacking.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Chances are all have some degree and who knows what the future holds. Anyhow none can be bred from and are all now neutered and the one girl spayed as are mum and dad.
> 
> Just to add, mum and dad don't show signs of HD but the x rays told a different story - looking at Flynn you an see how bad it is to breed without health testing.


Not necessarily. Statistically, around 1 in 12 pups from two normal parents would have problems - 1 in 4 from severaly dysplastic pups, the other pairings sitting somewhere in between. Unfortunately, as we know statistics are based across large numbers - so yes, individual litters could be all one way or another - but it would be damned unlucky.

28 is NOT a severely high score and if bred to a lower bitch would produce a very high chance (around 90+%) of the offspring having scores lower than the parents. if you bred two dogs with 2/2 hips, you would have around a 10th of a chance compared to the higher scores of producing lower offspring.

A number of breed average scores are in the region of 20 to 26, and at least 4 are higher - then you have to ask whether the numbers for some breeds have sufficient enough numbers scored to make them statistically significant.



Malmum said:


> Just to add, mum and dad don't show signs of HD but the x rays told a different story - looking at Flynn you an see how bad it is to breed without health testing.


I wholly agree with your comments about being unaware hip problems and the need to score to see what's going on - but - sadly, in answer to SlingDash - it simply is nowhere as easy as 'breed the bad genes out' - for PRA and CNM - yes it is - for HD and ED - sadly it isn't anywhere near as straight forward - hence the need to err on the side of caution with EVERY pup from breeds prone to HD.

If it was as simple as breeding lower to lower to get and keep lower - explain to me why there has been a SINGLE recorded instance of 0/0 hips from 2 x 0/0 scoring parents in 70,000 Labradors scored over a 30 year period (and yes, I do know the person concerned).

================================

It would be easy for people to interpret some of the above as a need not to score - this is NOT in any way the case, as Malmum's dogs and many others show - mild (which is what 28 is) dysplasia seldom manifests itself, but surprisingly, often, neither do medium and severe dysplasia.

A dog is much more than a set of hips, and I would sooner breed from a dog with average or slightly above average hips that has all the inherent qualities for his breed and a proven track record of producing quality healthy offspring, than from a cantankerous poor specimen of a dog simply because it has good health results.

As someone once said to me - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"


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