# New 10 week old border collie. 3 problems!



## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Ive been reading through lots of threads on here about similar problems to the ones im experiencing but nothing seems to be working! 

Ive had a 10 week old border collie for 6 days and he was as good as gold on the first 2 days and now its all changed!

Heres the problems..

1. Toilet training - 

We dont have a garden, just a narrow balcony and lots of parks nearby. Hes always been great at doing his business outside but it doesnt stop him doing it indoors too. He never does his business in the hallway, where his bed is, he waits till hes in the living room. Were trying to get him to go on newspaper in a large seed box that we can then move out to the balcony when we cant get him downstairs in time, but its very much not working, even though we move him over mid pee.

2. Chewing furniture and biting hard at us - 

Its like he knew straight from the first day here that he wasnt allowed to bite furniture because hes cheeky about it. He takes a toy over to the furniture he wants to chew at and alternates between biting the furniture and his toy. When he bites us we have tried yelping, stern no's, walking away, turning away, distracting him with a toy and putting him in the hallway but nothing seems to work. Its getting worse everyday and he always draws blood now.

3. crying - 

Hes great at night, he sleeps the whole night with no noise. But he will cry if one of us leaves him in the hall to calm down or if either of us leave the flat.


Thats it really. Were thinking we might be giving him too much attention as both me and my partner work at home, so alot of the time hes in the same room as us. We take him for walks 3-4 times a day, about half an hour each time. We give him lots of training time to. Hes already learnt how to sit and fetch. He just switches between a perfectly good dog, to a mental one. Oh and today hes just started humping my boyfriends leg.

What can we do?

Thanks guys,

Hannah


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## celeste/ROXY (Jun 12, 2011)

Hi what food yo feeding him


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, not meant to sound harsh, but BC's are a herding dog used to a lot of space, it's a big *ask* to get one to become used to living in a flat.

That said, toilet training, no expectation should be laid on the dog to distinguish between inside and out. You know the difference, the dog doesn't, so reward outside behaviour accordingly, ignore inside behaviour the same.

BC's are high drive I'm afraid, not sure what your expectations were/are, they are fabulous dogs, but need a lot of stimulation. If you aren't an experienced dog handler, I'd start researching pretty quickly as regards to courses you can both do.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Ive been reading through lots of threads on here about similar problems to the ones im experiencing but nothing seems to be working!
> 
> Ive had a 10 week old border collie for 6 days and he was as good as gold on the first 2 days and now its all changed!
> 
> ...


What you need is a strict routine of taking your pup out every hour on the hour, all the time you are at home. Expect mistakes in the early stages, and just ignore and clean up. But every time your pup goes to the toilet outside, you need to reward heavily: treats, praise, a small game. Investing in a crate would be beneficial, so that you can crate him just before you take him out, so as he learns to hold it in for you to take him to the toilet, rather than sneaking away from his bedding area and doing it somewhere else!



> 2. Chewing furniture and biting hard at us -
> 
> Its like he knew straight from the first day here that he wasnt allowed to bite furniture because hes cheeky about it. He takes a toy over to the furniture he wants to chew at and alternates between biting the furniture and his toy. When he bites us we have tried yelping, stern no's, walking away, turning away, distracting him with a toy and putting him in the hallway but nothing seems to work. Its getting worse everyday and he always draws blood now.


With biting the furniture, you need to 1) prevent this from happening by constant supervision, and when you can't, he needs to crated or in a play pen. Also, instead of just having boring old toys, either play with the toys with him, or get Kongs and stuff them with food and peanut butter (his daily meal food that is) and give him them to settle down to in the living room and in his crate. We want to teach the dog that chewing his own chew toys is much more rewarding than chewing furniture.

With the mouthing, you've only had him six days! Give the little boy and yourselves, and the training methods, a chance. I would not shout or say anything to him personally, as these things can heighten excitement more than anything else, unless you make it really strange like squeal, go rigid stiff, look scared, slowly get up and walk away for 20 seconds and repeat. In the mean time, you need to be doing handling exercises, so he learns a hand coming towards him is not for biting, but for good experiences such as waiting for a treat. Check out these links:
‪Stop puppies biting- clicker dog training‬‏ - YouTube
Teaching Bite Inhibition | Dog Star Daily
Handling & Gentling | Dog Star Daily



> 3. crying -
> 
> Hes great at night, he sleeps the whole night with no noise. But he will cry if one of us leaves him in the hall to calm down or if either of us leave the flat.


It's important to teach puppies 'down time' so they can relax when you aren't there. I would fill a stuffed Kong for him and leave him to it in another room or in his crate. Then, the next day, you do the same but leave the house for 15 minutes, check to hear if there is no whining (if you can) then enter. Don't make a big fuss, but reward for calm. Slowly increase the time you leave him with a Kong so he learns that you going away is a wonderful thing! This is another reason that crates are so important in the early stages- having a place where the puppy eats, sleeps, is warm and comfortable makes you leaving him a lot easier for him. Especially if you give him some food!



> Thats it really. Were thinking we might be giving him too much attention as both me and my partner work at home, so alot of the time hes in the same room as us. We take him for walks 3-4 times a day, about half an hour each time. We give him lots of training time to. Hes already learnt how to sit and fetch. He just switches between a perfectly good dog, to a mental one. Oh and today hes just started humping my boyfriends leg.


The humping will just be play and over-arousal. Keep up his mental stimulations throughout the day by way of training and down time (stuffed Kongs/crate time etc.). You also need to start enrolling him in puppy classes as soon as he is able to, so as he gains socialisation with other dogs. That said, you should be having friends over and getting him used to loud noises and other stimuli in these early stages, so he doesn't start developing any bad fears. It's great that you are at home a lot- that means great supervision time, but also means you can work on getting him used to spending time on his own too.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Agree with Sleeping Lion, even if she is an old bird. 

At 10 weeks old, it's unrealistic to expect a puppy to know to pee in a certain spot, it's all about repetitive learning.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree with Sleeping Lion - a border collie in a flat is a big 'ask'.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Ive been reading through lots of threads on here about similar problems to the ones im experiencing but nothing seems to be working!
> 
> Ive had a 10 week old border collie for 6 days and he was as good as gold on the first 2 days and now its all changed!
> 
> ...


Using paper in a seed box could be confusing him, it gives the message its OK to go in the house or it can do. Its going to require a lot of intense work for a few weeks, but I would take him outside every 45 minutes at least, when he starts to go, give it a name later when his made the association of the word with the "deed" you can usually use it as a toilet cue and get them in a lot of cases to empty on commmand. When finished lots of praise and his most favourite treats. Also make sure you clean up the accidents with a special pet cleaner, any smell left (and dont forget he can smell things you cant) makes them more likely to keep repeating in in the same places, which maybe why its always the living room.



> 2. Chewing furniture and biting hard at us -
> 
> Its like he knew straight from the first day here that he wasnt allowed to bite furniture because hes cheeky about it. He takes a toy over to the furniture he wants to chew at and alternates between biting the furniture and his toy. When he bites us we have tried yelping, stern no's, walking away, turning away, distracting him with a toy and putting him in the hallway but nothing seems to work. Its getting worse everyday and he always draws blood now.


Try Getting toys that is going to keep his attention, Kongs are Good, Solid hard rubber with a hollow centre, Coat the inside with a smear of peanut butter or cheese spread and pack tight with wet or wet and dry puppy food from his allowance, add bits of chicken or something for even more interest, you can freeze them to last longer still. Use a treat ball or toy, filled with kibble that you set to distribute a piece her and there to keep his interest.
Make sure you have a supply of chews and chew toys, and rotate them when he starts to geet bored with the ones his got, Dont leave loads laying about all the time, jusst get out different ones as and when and change them.

As for the Biting you, yelping makes some hyped up and do it even more, when they get over excited they tend to get more mouthy. You might not be following through for long enough for him to get the message. Try re-directing it onto a toy, praising him when he does, make sure the toy is interesting by throwing it, Or moving it, encourage learning him to not bite down on it so hard praising him when he does. Try Folding your arms and turning your back telling him off as you do it, but you have to stay turned away and carry on ignoring him totally, until he has stopped calmed down and stayed that way. If he still persists put him out and leave him for 10 minutes or so, then let him back in but continue to ignore him for a further time to make sure he is completely calm. Some dogs need more repitions then others, you need to keep doing it consistantly and repetively if need be.



> 3. crying -
> 
> Hes great at night, he sleeps the whole night with no noise. But he will cry pf one of us leaves him in the hall to calm down or if either of us leave the flat.
> 
> ...


If he has access to you all the time you are in its not good, he needs to learn how to cope on his own starting when you are in. Border Collies can be on the obsessive side, so you need to start sorting something out now. If he sleeps at night no problems then its likely attention seeking and the more you give in and let him have access to you all day the more problems are going to occur. Set up a routine where he is on his own for breaks throughout the day.
Pups can get overtired and some dont know when to quit either, so you have to impose rest and wind down. Best time to do it is after a walk or training session. Put his bed in a quite place in the house away from you. Try putting a radio on low on a talking station, some chews or his Kong in there, A T shirt or jumper you have worn in his bed will have your smell to soothe him. Just take him there give him a Kong or chew and walk away no fuss. Even if you do it for a few minutes the first time, walk back no fuss ideally before he gets stressed, and let him out but ignore him. Carry on giving no attention whatsoever for a few more minutes then call him to you. Do this several times a day building up the time by a few minutes. Ideally you need to get a regular routine going with a pattern, Maybe walk, wind down time, a training session mixed with play, wind down time, another walk, wind down time and so on. At this age he musnt be over exercised anyway. So keep walks short,
at the moment and do 2 or 3 15 minute training/play sessions a day.

To deter him from furniture you can get anti-chew strips on a roll. Anti-Lick Strip and click on the anti-chew range.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> Agree with Sleeping Lion, even if she is an old bird.
> 
> At 10 weeks old, it's unrealistic to expect a puppy to know to pee in a certain spot, it's all about repetitive learning.


Bu88a, have I left the webcam on again :lol:

Edited to add, read my first bit of the post, which made sense to me before I went to bed last night, obviously a ten week old pup isn't *used* to a lot of space, it's used to whatever situation it's put in. But, as I did expand (not literally thank goodness) in the last bit of my small post, they are high drive, they need stimulation and stuff to do. And I very much agree with the others, in that dogs need to learn to live with themselves, they need to learn to switch off and be comfortable on their own, so you're most likely right in thinking he's getting too much attention from you both 

PS My Lab had me tearing my hair out as a pup, and they're *supposed* to be easy, so don't worry, it's normal puppy behaviour, but I think for the sake of the pup and your sanity definitely see if you can get some classes sorted out


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Hi there and welcome to the wonderful world of Border Collies , albeit a flat is not ideal for any dog even more so a border collie , firstly he is 10 weeks old so doesnt need a ten mile walk , and you wouldnt expect a 10 week old baby to out of nappies , so on the hour every hour you are gonna have to make the trip down stairs with him and into the garden , when he does his business in the garden tell him to ' be quick' this way he will learn to do his business on command ,whe he starts to chew your hand , asstated before you need to make a yipping sound and leave the puppy alone he will soon learn that when he mouths you the game ends , regards the furniture this will need constant supervision and as soon as you see him go to chew you tell him no , after all you wouldnt put a toddler in a room and leave him alone and expect him to stay out of trouble , regards the crying when left does he have a crate ,i have crates for all my dogs , and you will be surprised how they use them sometimes it just for the peace and quiet away from the other dogs , maybe get one and encourage him to use it DO NOT use it a punishment , start off with placing his food in it and letting him eat in there and encourage him to go in there to sleep


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

With the crate training, I found if i I put an old duvet in the bottom - my pup took himself in to sleep there and he's done most of the training himself! 

We have taken it very slowly and after a week he sleeps in there all night, but we've not closed the door as of yet.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


rocco33 said:



I agree with Sleeping Lion - a border collie in a flat is a big 'ask'. 

Click to expand...

*Yes I agree too.

I'm afraid most BC pups destroy things, are sometimes difficult to house train and need enormous amounts of stimulation both mentally and physically.

I've had Border Collies for well over 30 years plus I see on average another 40+ on a monthly basis.


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## lalauri (Jul 24, 2010)

I can't really add anything - everything that's been said is valid advice. I have a BC/Springer cross and admittedly we never had problems with toilet training - he seemed to learn pretty instantaneously the difference between inside and outside. We just made sure to make a big fuss and give lots of praise when he did his business outdoors, and just ignored it when he did anything in the house. Also, and I'm not sure if this is just my dog being odd, but he's never done his business on hard ground. We have decking right outside our backdoor and he's never done his business there - always on the grass, I'm not sure if it's something about the feel of the ground or what 

I wouldn't say our dog was particularly destructive but he had a thing for chewing and biting and it seemed to take quite a while for him to realise that biting my hand _actually_ hurts. We just kept a soft toy around at all times to give him when he started to nip or chew.

I can only echo Sleeping Lion in saying that classes are a must. Aside from that it's all about patience and perseverance.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I agree with Sleeping Lion - a border collie in a flat is a big 'ask'.


Hi, I have recently joing with some great advice from the members... you know who you are:thumbup1: I have a 6mth Lab/Collie, only had him for 6 weeks though so doing some re-training. This site was recommended for me and it is great. Check it out. Mainline Border Collie Centre

Good luck!


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Thankyou everyone for your great advice. It will be a big help. We gave him a kong today and it was brilliant. I will have a look for crates.

With regards to his house training he used the paper box today for the first time so things are looking good.

I realise its quite a big ask to have a border collie in a flat with no garden. Its not the ideal situation for any of us and we hope to move to a place with a garden very very soon! Hopefully for now lots of visits to the park make up for it a little. 

Another thing I forgot to mention is that he seems to get frustrated with himself sometimes and bites his back legs alot. We took him to the vets yesterday to see if he had fleas but he found nothing. Could this just be him getting over excited?

Thanks again everyone!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Perhaps he is bored and frustrated and occupying himself when he bites at his legs? Maybe provide loads of short sessions of mental stimulation?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Training Treat Ball for Dogs by Wlpet | Pets at Home

It&#39;s Me or the Dog: How to have the Perfect Pet eBook: Victoria Stilwell: Amazon.co.uk: Books

Puppy Training Stages | DailyPuppy.com


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> Thankyou everyone for your great advice. It will be a big help. We gave him a kong today and it was brilliant. I will have a look for crates.
> 
> With regards to his house training he used the paper box today for the first time so things are looking good.
> 
> ...


Quite a few of the border collies I've met, have been pretty neurotic, a couple I would say have been downright mad, and I think I would be right in saying, as a breed, they would be prone to this sort of behaviour, their off switch takes a bit more finding than with some other breeds (she types whilst two chocolate Labs are snoring at her feet), although I'll qualify that by saying I have met some lovely chilled BC's as well. Good classes will not only help you harness the drive, but help you with getting him to settle down as well 

Nice to hear you'll be trying to find somewhere with a garden, nothing nicer than sitting out with your dog(s) and enjoying the sunshine, that is, if we get any this year :lol:


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

My Jack Russell has a bit of Border Collie in him, when he's bored or feeling particularly mental he starts nibbling his feet, not enough to hurt, just enough to be annoying  I normally make him go through his routine of tricks/walk him, anything to distract him.

Good luck!


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Quite a few of the border collies I've met, have been pretty neurotic, a couple I would say have been downright mad, and I think I would be right in saying, as a breed, they would be prone to this sort of behaviour, their off switch takes a bit more finding than with some other breeds (she types whilst two chocolate Labs are snoring at her feet), although I'll qualify that by saying I have met some lovely chilled BC's as well. Good classes will not only help you harness the drive, but help you with getting him to settle down as well
> 
> Nice to hear you'll be trying to find somewhere with a garden, nothing nicer than sitting out with your dog(s) and enjoying the sunshine, that is, if we get any this year :lol:


Thanks. I will deffinately look for some courses here and will get him in one as soon as i can afford it (its been one expensive month!) I knew he was going to be a handfull when I decided on a border collie, but im hoping with plenty of training he wont be completely neurotic.

Ive just realised that ive been feeding him the wrong sorts of food. Things with 28% protein in are probably not helping with his behavior. I want to get him off the brands and onto a more natural diet. I hope it will calm down his crazy moments a little. What im confused about though is if he should be having rice or not as I hear grain and other similar fillers in dog food are bad.

Hope Im not getting all this information completely wrong. This is my first dog so im trying to learn as much as I can.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> Thanks. I will deffinately look for some courses here and will get him in one as soon as i can afford it (its been one expensive month!) I knew he was going to be a handfull when I decided on a border collie, but im hoping with plenty of training he wont be completely neurotic.
> 
> Ive just realised that ive been feeding him the wrong sorts of food. Things with 28% protein in are probably not helping with his behavior. I want to get him off the brands and onto a more natural diet. I hope it will calm down his crazy moments a little. What im confused about though is if he should be having rice or not as I hear grain and other similar fillers in dog food are bad.
> 
> Hope Im not getting all this information completely wrong. This is my first dog so im trying to learn as much as I can.


You'd probably be better off starting a new thread asking for recommendations in the health and nutrition section, there are plenty of posts in there to have a read through as well.

I raw feed, but if I have to use a complete food, then it's Skinners, which is pretty cheap, the ingredients are good, not the best, but then I couldn't afford the best if I fed a commercial diet. Raw feeding for me works out at £7.50 per week for two big Labs, helps if you get on with the local butchers!!

PS you're doing a grand job, everyone starts off as a new dog owner at some point in life, asking questions no matter how daft they seem is important, we will definitely tell you you're daft (in the nicest possible way) but we'll also try and help where we can, it is a nice forum to be on


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily

i would download them both - U can print off any special bits for taking along on a walk, for a socializing trip, 
or for any other study or reference purpose. :thumbup1:

the books are EXCELLENT for teaching a soft-mouth; also socialization & early manners.

the backstory - 
Ian Dunbar is a vet who was frustrated to find about 30-years ago, when he got his Nordic puppy, that NO CLASSES 
existed for young pups - classes began at 6-MO, period - because the tools & methods used were too daunting 
for younger, softer pups who could not cope with collar-corrections, choke-collars, & so on. What did he do? 
*began his own classes. :thumbup: Problem solved! 
plus he designed puppy-friendly classes, without using choke- or slip- or prong- or other aversive collars, 
& he used management & rewards to encourage right behavior, rather than wait till the pup screws-up 
& 'correct' AKA punish the unwanted behavior.*

'correction' is after the fact; the unwanted behavior is already done, it's history. we can't un-ring the bell.

avoiding unwanted behavior by preventing it, & creating WANTED behavior as we capture, elicit, lure, & reward, 
are all much lower-stress & much happier choices. If U were a puppy, which would U choose? Praise & fun, 
or a switch and a scolding for every effort? Think of Ur schooling as a child: enthusiastic & enjoyable learning 
is more memorable, more efficient & happier for teacher & student.


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, not meant to sound harsh, but BC's are a herding dog used to a lot of space, it's a big *ask* to get one to become used to living in a flat.
> 
> That said, toilet training, no expectation should be laid on the dog to distinguish between inside and out. You know the difference, the dog doesn't, so reward outside behaviour accordingly, ignore inside behaviour the same.
> 
> BC's are high drive I'm afraid, not sure what your expectations were/are, they are fabulous dogs, but need a lot of stimulation. If you aren't an experienced dog handler, I'd start researching pretty quickly as regards to courses you can both do.


Agree... facts are (and I'm sorry about being so abrupt but there's no sugar coating it) you can't keep a border collie happy in a flat.
You really should have done some hard research before bringing a border collie home.
They need to have a garden to have a good olde run about in and LOTS of things to stimulate their minds as one of the most intelligent dogs out there. You will get a hell of allot of problems not only now but when this dogs older if you cannot provide this.

This being said... I wish you the best of luck.


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> Thankyou everyone for your great advice. It will be a big help. We gave him a kong today and it was brilliant. I will have a look for crates.
> 
> With regards to his house training he used the paper box today for the first time so things are looking good.
> 
> ...


I'm not entirely sure if boredoms the cause in this situation.... but fustration because of boredom can cause a dog to self mutilate...


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Cassia said:


> Agree... facts are (and I'm sorry about being so abrupt but there's no sugar coating it) you can't keep a border collie happy in a flat.
> You really should have done some hard research before bringing a border collie home.
> They need to have a garden to have a good olde run about in and LOTS of things to stimulate their minds as one of the most intelligent dogs out there. You will get a hell of allot of problems not only now but when this dogs older if you cannot provide this.
> 
> This being said... I wish you the best of luck.


Ok, well I did do alot of hard research before bringing him home. There were many articles about how BCs not being suitable as apartment pets isnt neccesarily true in all cases. See here..Home Page - That'll Do Border Collie Rescue

As I said before me and my fiance both work from home and we live in an area full of large parks just 5 minutes each way. We are constantly taking him out for exercise, playing games with him and end up completely tiring him out. A BC left outside all day compared to one left inside all day would be no different surely? both would be bored and destructive? Isnt mental stimulation the key with this breed?


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Cassia said:


> Agree... facts are (and I'm sorry about being so abrupt but there's no sugar coating it) you can't keep a border collie happy in a flat.
> You really should have done some hard research before bringing a border collie home.
> They need to have a garden to have a good olde run about in and LOTS of things to stimulate their minds as one of the most intelligent dogs out there. You will get a hell of allot of problems not only now but when this dogs older if you cannot provide this.
> 
> This being said... I wish you the best of luck.


I replied to this yesterday but it doesnt seem to have come up for some reason..

I did do alot of hard research before I got my BC. There were alot of articles about 'the myth' of border collies being bad apartment dogs.

As I said before me and my fiance both work at home so we both have a lot of time to take him out and play with him at the the local parks (which are all about 5 minutes away from home) There would be no difference between a dog left inside all day compared to one outside surely? Both would be bored and frustrated. Isnt mental stimulation the key to border collies?

One day I would love to have a garden, but right now we just dont have the money for that sort of place


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Heres one of the links..Home Page - That'll Do Border Collie Rescue


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

What mental stimulation do you do with him? It does sound as though he's quite bored and or frustrated.


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## dvnbiker (Dec 2, 2009)

I would be really interested to know why you thought a BC would make a good first dog for you and being kept in a flat.:mad2: I have had BCs all my life, they are not easy dogs and my lot come first and foremost in my life. I just wonder how much you really researched this. 

That said, you have done it now. Can I ask where you got your pup from? Was it off a farm or something similar? If so, the pup will have come from working lines will have a huge drive to work and be mentally stimulated. Best advice I can give is look into clicker training, you can start this straight away and it will really help with the mental stimulation. 

As to high protein in a food it really depends on the source of protein in a food. I feed my lot raw which has a huge protein percentage but they are not hyper at all (well unless they are doing agility)

The very best of luck


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> What mental stimulation do you do with him? It does sound as though he's quite bored and or frustrated.


Hes calmed down quite a bit since I first posted. Weve done plenty of tricks with him, hes just learnt to fetch his ball and sit this week. He plays with his kong - both with us and alone. I think his main problem might have been too much time with us in the same room and his diet. Hes settled in alot better now and the only real problem weve still got is that he bites my partner. He drops most things he chews when I ask him, not my partner though. I dont think hes bored at all. Maybe a little over stimulated when he was settling in? Hes bright eyed and always wagging his tail!


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

He sounds lots better!

I assume you do most of the training with him? 

Fetch is excellent, get your partner to do this alot with him to build up a bond. And get him to do the feeding as well if he can. Sounds like you're doing a good job so far.


dvnbiker - Our first family dog was a BC, was my familys first dog. She came from working lines and we were originally in a flat (granted we lived in a Cricket Club but we still had to walk a minute or so to the field, instead of just having a garden). She was fantastic, very obedient, calm. She was rarely walked, so considering this she was the most well behaved dog I've met. You CAN keep any dog in an apartment/flat I believe, so long as you have access all the time to outside parks/community garden etc/


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

dvnbiker said:


> I would be really interested to know why you thought a BC would make a good first dog for you and being kept in a flat.:mad2: I have had BCs all my life, they are not easy dogs and my lot come first and foremost in my life. I just wonder how much you really researched this.
> 
> That said, you have done it now. Can I ask where you got your pup from? Was it off a farm or something similar?


He was a first dog for me but not my partner. I am not intending to keep him in the flat but were stuck here for maybe another 6 months 
My family own a farm near by here so he will always have a place to go if he needs to burn of some energy. We didnt get him from a farm, just a local who had a litter. We both have alot of time to spend with him outdoors, and were both active. I dont think were depriving him just because he has to spend a minute hopping down some stairs to go outside to play. He spends more time outdoors than he does in at the moment!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Glad he's calming down, it can be daunting if you've not had a dog before, and there is such a lot of conflicting advice  

Sorry if I've missed it, but what sort of food is he on? That may be affecting his behaviour as well.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

In one of your previous posts, you mentioned that you take him out for 4 45 minute walks a day. To be honest, with an indoor dog that you are trying to toilet train, I would be taking him out every hour, maybe not for the whole 45 minutes but until he pee's.

My husband got his Min Pin when he was living in an apartment, albeit a downstairs apartment with an outside area, but I don't think that really makes a difference. Everytime he caught Bruno about to pee or poop inside the house, or even afterward he would take him outside so that he gradually associated peeing and pooping with being outside. As has already been said use words like "Pee" and "Poop" so that he starts to associate with what he is doing. Then, eventually he will learn to pee and poop on command (sounds bizarre but it really does work).

Also, you have now started using the Kong toy. My suggestion here would be to have several different types of mental stimulation toys. There are some toys by Nina Ottosson that are supposed to be good for mental stimulation but I've never used them to be honest. Anyway, I would rotate toys on the hour, so your dog has something different to stimulate it 

One other thing. If your dog is chewing furniture, please make sure that there aren't any electrical wires anywhere that he can chew on. I'm sure you've already thought of that but I actually know someone who lost a dog through electrocution so just wanted to be sure 

Good luck and keep posting updates


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Glad he's calming down, it can be daunting if you've not had a dog before, and there is such a lot of conflicting advice
> 
> Sorry if I've missed it, but what sort of food is he on? That may be affecting his behaviour as well.


I am too. It was quite daunting! Im just glad he listens to me though. I just wish I could say the same for my poor fiance, hes getting ripped to shreds.

When we first got him we had him on bakers...:frown2: We did have it mixed with pedigree puppy pouches though. We took him off the bakers yesterday after reading all sorts about it and now hes just got pedigree. I want to buy some new food today for him that I can phase him into. Preferebly something with no bad fillers and not too much protien for a pup. Do you think that could have been affecting behavior?


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Do you think that could have been affecting behavior?


Absolutely, its like feeding your kids on nothing but Mcdonalds, soda and sweets


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> I am too. It was quite daunting! Im just glad he listens to me though. I just wish I could say the same for my poor fiance, hes getting ripped to shreds.
> 
> When we first got him we had him on bakers...:frown2: We did have it mixed with pedigree puppy pouches though. We took him off the bakers yesterday after reading all sorts about it and now hes just got pedigree. I want to buy some new food today for him that I can phase him into. Preferebly something with no bad fillers and not too much protien for a pup. Do you think that could have been affecting behavior?


Ooooh, pedigree's not really any better than bakers to be honest, anything you can buy from a supermarket usually has cr*p ingredients.

Also, try to avoid swapping foods quickly, as it may cause a tummy upset, swap over gradually over a period of days. I raw feed, and can certainly help if you consider changing to that, but if I had to feed a kibble to my two, it would be one of the Skinners range, they have a couple that are really good, although the maintenance one is a bit too full of fillers for my liking.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

LouiseH said:


> In one of your previous posts, you mentioned that you take him out for 4 45 minute walks a day. To be honest, with an indoor dog that you are trying to toilet train, I would be taking him out every hour, maybe not for the whole 45 minutes but until he pee's.
> 
> My husband got his Min Pin when he was living in an apartment, albeit a downstairs apartment with an outside area, but I don't think that really makes a difference. Everytime he caught Bruno about to pee or poop inside the house, or even afterward he would take him outside so that he gradually associated peeing and pooping with being outside. As has already been said use words like "Pee" and "Poop" so that he starts to associate with what he is doing. Then, eventually he will learn to pee and poop on command (sounds bizarre but it really does work).
> 
> ...


Thanks for all that advice! Weve got a tray that he seems to like peeing in now so we are moving it onto the balcony and taking him out there every hour or so. Were not so sure if this is the best idea or not yet though. Were hoping he makes the connection that its an outside area and its not just going to confuse him. I will definately start using words to associate too.

We make sure we dont have too many toys out anymore too. He has a box that is full of his toys. We get him to sit before we open it so he can choose which toy hes most interested in. I will look at buying some more mental stimulation toys, he really enjoys his Kong.

Hes not chewed at the wooden furniture for a couple of days now (which is near such things as the tv where theres wires - even though Ive hidden them all away as well as I could) Hes got a thing about chewing the couch now though...


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ooooh, pedigree's not really any better than bakers to be honest, anything you can buy from a supermarket usually has cr*p ingredients.
> 
> Also, try to avoid swapping foods quickly, as it may cause a tummy upset, swap over gradually over a period of days. I raw feed, and can certainly help if you consider changing to that, but if I had to feed a kibble to my two, it would be one of the Skinners range, they have a couple that are really good, although the maintenance one is a bit too full of fillers for my liking.


Ok brilliant! I will look into all of that. I cant believe how little I knew about all those branded foods. With all the things Ive read about them Im suprised people still buy the stuff.

Will be carefull about swapping the foods..I might make a trip to the butchers today to see if they can give me any good deals


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Weve got a tray that he seems to like peeing in now so we are moving it onto the balcony and taking him out there every hour or so. Were not so sure if this is the best idea or not yet though.


No it isn't. If you are taking him outside every hour ( plus after play, meal time, sleep...) remove a tray. Now dog is learning that peeing inside is okay and this is slowing down all house training.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I would change his food over slowly, over a week of two. Skinners or Arden Garnge complete puppy food i believe it's a LOT better than pedigree or bakers as others have said it's like feeding fast food and fizzy drinks to kids ! Crates are cheapest on ebay if you decide to go down that route, my two were crate trained.
I can't help but think maybe you should of waited 6 months though and moved first before getting a BC pup. 

Anyway are there any pic's on here ?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> Ok brilliant! I will look into all of that. I cant believe how little I knew about all those branded foods. With all the things Ive read about them Im suprised people still buy the stuff.
> 
> Will be carefull about swapping the foods..I might make a trip to the butchers today to see if they can give me any good deals


People buy them because they can't be bothered to look into it any more, and if their dog does ok on it, then they don't feel the need to change. I have to bite my tongue every time I see someone buying it, I hate the thought of what people put into their dogs!

The best meats to try for the first time are chicken and turkey, red meats can upset their tums if they've never had raw ever. Something like a turkey neck is ideal, as they can't bolt it down whole, they have to chew it, otherwise you have to hold on to the other end and encourage them to chew. The best way to do this, is sit them inbetween your legs facing away from you, hold their front left leg with your left hand, and feed the meaty bone in to the right hand side of their mouth. Doing this stops them turning to face you, where they will just try and pull the food off you, rather than chew 

It costs approx £7.50 to feed my two Labs per week, on completely raw, fresh ingredients, not bad value I don't think


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> People buy them because they can't be bothered to look into it any more, and if their dog does ok on it, then they don't feel the need to change. I have to bite my tongue every time I see someone buying it, I hate the thought of what people put into their dogs!


How they can see difference if they don't want to give better food a try.
There always is excuse, my favourite: I can't afford! But they can afford to have 2 dogs?! Grrr...



Sleeping_Lion said:


> It costs approx £7.50 to feed my two Labs per week, on completely raw, fresh ingredients, not bad value I don't think


12 Natura Menu blocks


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Andromeda said:


> How they can see difference if they don't want to give better food a try.
> There always is excuse, my favourite: I can't afford! But they can afford to have 2 dogs?! Grrr...
> 
> 12 Natura Menu blocks


It's mad isn't it, there are much better quality foods for the same price or cheaper!!

Ooooh, interesting, how many meals would that provide?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

My dad aged 70 had a puppy in a flat. He got up and went out with the puppy to housetrain it. ATM you are teaching the pup to pee indoors. 
For the rest - read the Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey as this is normal puppy behaviour


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's mad isn't it, there are much better quality foods for the same price or cheaper!!
> 
> Ooooh, interesting, how many meals would that provide?


I know! It's funny, isn't it?
2 dogs and £10 plus what I have in the fridge. Even if it cost me £50 a month my dogs are happy, Max hasn't got any issues with food and more important no more wasting food. Before I bin half food which I bought! 
How you can compare a dog who always was starving (she easily put on weight so 24kg dog was on 120g of kibble, it was a half of recommended daily feeding for her) when and dog who always was refusing to eat, with to happy dogs?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> I just wish I could say the same for my poor fiance, *he's getting ripped to shreds.*


PLEASE see my prior post, & download the 2 FREE books?

as i said - they have the best advice i know of, while explaining how to teach a soft-mouth.  
if U don't want or need them, ask the fiance' to fetch them for himself - & read them, for his own skin's sake 
& for the neighbor's, the relative's, & the children's skins as well.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi again, also look at post 'hyper puppy...' under Health & Nurtition that I posted. These has been so much advice on their. Still digesting it all!

Good luck!


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> PLEASE see my prior post, & download the 2 FREE books?
> 
> as i said - they have the best advice i know of, while explaining how to teach a soft-mouth.
> if U don't want or need them, ask the fiance' to fetch them for himself - & read them, for his own skin's sake
> & for the neighbor's, the relative's, & the children's skins as well.


Thanks for them. I will deffinately download. I've just been reading the bite stops here. Tried putting it into practice today as he's started biting me too. The problem about leaving the room when he bites is that I will come back in and he will be chewing up the couch. He tends to do it alot at the park too. I'm not sure what to do in that situation when there's no room to go to.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

RKD said:


> Hi again, also look at post 'hyper puppy...' under Health & Nurtition that I posted. These has been so much advice on their. Still digesting it all!
> 
> Good luck!


I've had a good read through that thread. We got him naturesdiet today and he loved it. I hope it will calm him a bit. Will get him on a raw diet when he's a bit older. How's your puppy doing?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Bones when they start teething will be a god send! Honestly.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> I've just been reading *'the bite stops here'*.
> Tried putting it into practice today as he's started biting me too. The problem about leaving the room when he bites
> is that I'll come back in & he's chewing-up the couch. He tends to do it a lot at the park too. I'm not sure what to do
> in that situation, when there's no room to go to.


at home: 
come back in sooner.  30-seconds or less; have apropos chew-toys for him, & leave 1 or 2 down. 
rotate them for variety: solid nylon, solid rubber, edible bones [potato, carrot...] BROCCOLI STEMS - 
big fat horsey ones with the peel still on! Raw carrots, freeze-dried sweet potato slices, & so on.

*at the park:* is there a fence? 
slipping the wrist-loop over a post & walking 4 or 5-ft away, standing sideways so U can keep a good eye on him 
without being obvious, is one way to park him for a short time-out.

a park-bench is another simple 'station' to leave him - slip the wrist-loop thru the slats & briskly square-knot 
the leash around the upright supporting the back-slats; walk off a SHORT distance for a SHORT time, 
& return - don't fuss him, just un-knot & walk on.

SHORT is the imperative part - he needs many opportunities to sin, so he can figure out what CAUSES his time-out. 
if U leave him for 2-minutes, he has forgotten what he did; 30 to 45-seconds is plenty, 15 to 20-secs is better.

this may mean he gets 10 fifteen-second time-outs in 5-minutes; that's OK, don't forget to *praise & reward 
wanted, calm behavior - without making the pup manic; don't squeal, jump up + down, rumple his coat, etc. * 
warm praise; calm supportive touch that goes ===> with hair-growth, not against it; small hi-protein treats.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> at home:
> come back in sooner.  30-seconds or less; have apropos chew-toys for him, & leave 1 or 2 down.
> rotate them for variety: solid nylon, solid rubber, edible bones [potato, carrot...] BROCCOLI STEMS -
> big fat horsey ones with the peel still on! Raw carrots, freeze-dried sweet potato slices, & so on.
> ...


Thankyou thats all great advice. Me and my fiance have just been in tears over him this evening. I dont know why hes getting worse with his biting. We do eveything we can to try and encourage bite inhibition. My fiance just came back with his trousers completely torn up and legs bleeding. Every step of his walk he just kept biting and wouldnt let go. Alot of the way theres no where to tie his lead to without him being in reach of other people on the way to the park. I dont know what we can do if we cant even get him to walk anymore...were both desperate now. Im feeling really guilty and upset.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Oh sweet please don't cry  

Get a behaviourist, they can give you more advice and better support.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Oh sweet please don't cry
> 
> Get a behaviourist, they can give you more advice and better support.


Its hard not to. Were both a bit emotionally tired out. Im starting to get quite tense around him as I used to be quite frightened of dogs that bite since I got attacked by one when I was little. I know all puppies do bite but its getting so much worse and hes really digging his teeth in deep.

Will look for a behaviorist in the area, but I dont think we can afford it for a little while after just buying him and all his things last saturday.

Im in no way angry at him. Just angry with myself for not being able to put all this advice to good use. Feels like were going backwards.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> I know all puppies do bite but its getting so much worse & he's really digging his teeth in deep.


did U download the free puppy-books yet?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I think she said she has done and she's halfway through or has finished reading them


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Thankyou thats all great advice. Me and my fiance have just been in tears over him this evening. I dont know why hes getting worse with his biting. We do eveything we can to try and encourage bite inhibition. My fiance just came back with his trousers completely torn up and legs bleeding. Every step of his walk he just kept biting and wouldnt let go. Alot of the way theres no where to tie his lead to without him being in reach of other people on the way to the park. I dont know what we can do if we cant even get him to walk anymore...were both desperate now. Im feeling really guilty and upset.


Is the worst of his biting mostly when he is outside on walks? Does he start off ok and the biting starts after awhile? Whats he like enthusiasm wise when the lead comes out to go for a walk. Does he run off and try to avoid it or get really hyper excited? Whats his demeanour like when he is walking, is he unsure and uncertain and stops at times, or is he interested and excited? Does he react and jump at noises, or totally unbothered. Any salavating/drooling or lip licking.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> did U download the free puppy-books yet?


Yes I have downloaded them. Ive read 'before you get your puppy'. And Im starting 'after you get your puppy' Will let you know how I get on with the advice in it.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Is the worst of his biting mostly when he is outside on walks? Does he start off ok and the biting starts after awhile? Whats he like enthusiasm wise when the lead comes out to go for a walk. Does he run off and try to avoid it or get really hyper excited? Whats his demeanour like when he is walking, is he unsure and uncertain and stops at times, or is he interested and excited? Does he react and jump at noises, or totally unbothered. Any salavating/drooling or lip licking.


Before today his biting was equally as frequent inside and outside. The first walk of the day he only started biting once we got to the park. But with the other walks hes been biting all the time. He wont stop at all. He seems excited to go for walks, his tail is always wagging the whole time hes biting. Hes got to know the journey to the park quite well and on the way he can get very excited and almost be running there and at other points he will get a bit nervous. On the way back though hes completely confident and wont stop at all. He will lick his lips quite a bit and his eyes are very wide, not noticed any drooling though. Is this normal behaviour? He never bit me hard before today (only by accident when chewing on a toy before) But hes been biting my fiance alot these past few days.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Before today his biting was equally as frequent inside and outside. The first walk of the day he only started biting once we got to the park. But with the other walks hes been biting all the time. He wont stop at all. He seems excited to go for walks, his tail is always wagging the whole time hes biting. Hes got to know the journey to the park quite well and on the way he can get very excited and almost be running there and at other points he will get a bit nervous. On the way back though hes completely confident and wont stop at all. He will lick his lips quite a bit and his eyes are very wide, not noticed any drooling though. Is this normal behaviour? He never bit me hard before today (only by accident when chewing on a toy before) But hes been biting my fiance alot these past few days.


I was only wondering whether he showed fear of nervousness during the walk as one of mine used to be fearful outside he would react by jumping and biting
constantly non stop nipping that would bruise and rip clothes. His eyes used to dilate like saucers and he would drool or have thick saliva, lip licking can be a sign of uncertainty and fearfulness. In the early bad days indoors he could do it too. At first he would try to bolt on the lead but as he couldnt "flight" he then used to the manic jumping and biting in re-directed fear. Trouble is and I would think especially with a border collie, they can get to a point where their stress levels are constantly at a higher level and never get down to total relaxation, this makes them even quicker to react, As instead of being at zero stress wise and going up, if they are already partially up the scale say a 3 or 4 obviously they are going to reach a 10 quicker.

Mine used to get worse with the nipping the more scary things he encountered and the more stressful the walk. His was always worse after you had been out awhile. Also are you still taking him out for the same time, too long and to much stress can make them worse.

I cant say your guys is of course, cant see him but could be a possibility.
Maybe the fast track home is because he wants to get home. The thing is though if it is this the more he gets stressed the worse it can get. Where was he raised, was it in the house or outside in a kennel and was it rural setting. How old was he when he was first introduced outside with traffic noises etc.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I was only wondering whether he showed fear of nervousness during the walk as one of mine used to be fearful outside he would react by jumping and biting
> constantly non stop nipping that would bruise and rip clothes. His eyes used to dilate like saucers and he would drool or have thick saliva, lip licking can be a sign of uncertainty and fearfulness. In the early bad days indoors he could do it too. At first he would try to bolt on the lead but as he couldnt "flight" he then used to the manic jumping and biting in re-directed fear. Trouble is and I would think especially with a border collie, they can get to a point where their stress levels are constantly at a higher level and never get down to total relaxation, this makes them even quicker to react, As instead of being at zero stress wise and going up, if they are already partially up the scale say a 3 or 4 obviously they are going to reach a 10 quicker.
> 
> Mine used to get worse with the nipping the more scary things he encountered and the more stressful the walk. His was always worse after you had been out awhile. Also are you still taking him out for the same time, too long and to much stress can make them worse.
> ...


He never used to bite when we first took him for walks, and by now hes not jumpy or very distracted by cars or people. I would have thought that if he was frightened he would have been doing it before. Sometimes its just at the park, where he seems to love - he always got excited just as we entered, not since the biting though. He likes seeing people and other dogs and never bites strangers. So the circumstances and environmental causes arent to obvious to me. He will just start biting us for no reason and wont stop once he starts. Hes doing it alot more inside too. Its strange because hes not constantly hyper. He has naps inbetween walks and play. But he will go from sleepy to bitey in a second. We take him out for 3 walks a day now. 1 long one and 2 shorter ones. 
He seemed to be raised in a conservatory area with the rest of the litter - didnt seem like they had constant access to their parents who stayed in the house. He was first introduced to traffic noises when we bought him home on saturday - so 9 weeks old. He was a bit jumpy with the outisde noise at first but doesnt seem to take notice anymore.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> He never used to bite when we first took him for walks, and by now hes not jumpy or very distracted by cars or people. I would have thought that if he was frightened he would have been doing it before. Sometimes its just at the park, where he seems to love - he always got excited just as we entered, not since the biting though. He likes seeing people and other dogs and never bites strangers. So the circumstances and environmental causes arent to obvious to me. He will just start biting us for no reason and wont stop once he starts. Hes doing it alot more inside too. Its strange because hes not constantly hyper. He has naps inbetween walks and play. But he will go from sleepy to bitey in a second. We take him out for 3 walks a day now. 1 long one and 2 shorter ones.
> He seemed to be raised in a conservatory area with the rest of the litter - didnt seem like they had constant access to their parents who stayed in the house. He was first introduced to traffic noises when we bought him home on saturday - so 9 weeks old. He was a bit jumpy with the outisde noise at first but doesnt seem to take notice anymore.


Was just a thought, Be consistant with what you are doing at the moment.
However if and when you are able it might not be a bad idea to have a word with a behaviourist, and they would be able to assess him properly. You have plenty of info now and suggestions so carry on with those, you could well likely see an improvement. If you dont though if it were me a would see a behaviourist or at least a trainer, classes would likely be cheaper than a one to one. CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers should find a behaviour practioner in your area
and Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK should find you a trainer. Hope you get on Ok and he does get better soon.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Quick update on Charlie. 

His biting and chewing seems to be worse in the evening. He used to sleep all night through just fine but last night at every hour he would be barking and crying. He will cry alot when just one of us goes into the kitchen or the bathroom, even though one of us are still sat next to him.

We are teaching bite inhabition from 'the bite stops here' Were trying to encourage a soft mouth at the moment along with the 'off' trick using the treats in our hands. It seems that it calms him down a bit when hes allowed to mouth us instead of us just saying 'No' as soon as he looks like hes going to bite. He hates being told No, it seems to make him worse and makes him bark alot. So it can be difficult when hes biting our legs on his walks.

We wanted to ask you if the problem thats cropped up with sleepless nights could be down to him napping alot in the day? We always let him have his naps after walks, but is this ruining his nights sleep?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

What time is his last walk?


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> What time is his last walk?


Between 9 or 10.

Another thing I forgot to add is that last night there was some strange behavior. He was laying down on his back when i came in the room with his mouth and eyes wide open just staring in the same place. I knelt down next to him and called his name and tried to move him but he wasnt at all responsive, he didnt even break his stare. He was completely still and stiff like this for about 3 minutes. He then seemed sluggish when he finally got up and wasnt very responsive which progressed into the bad and seemingly sleepless night he had (whining, scratching)

Hes been shaking too, but infrequently and hes in a calm situation and doesnt seem frightened of anything when it happens.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Hmm... Ask the vet to test him for epliepsy?

I know Sled dog has a pooch who has epliepsy, hopefully she'll come along and give some advice.


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## MizzPooch (Jun 16, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> Between 9 or 10.
> 
> Another thing I forgot to add is that last night there was some strange behavior. He was laying down on his back when i came in the room with his mouth and eyes wide open just staring in the same place. I knelt down next to him and called his name and tried to move him but he wasnt at all responsive, he didnt even break his stare. He was completely still and stiff like this for about 3 minutes. He then seemed sluggish when he finally got up and wasnt very responsive which progressed into the bad and seemingly sleepless night he had (whining, scratching)
> 
> Hes been shaking too, but infrequently and hes in a calm situation and doesnt seem frightened of anything when it happens.


When you took him along to the vets for his vaccs did they give him a puppy check? If you are at all concerned I would pop him along to your vets - and I would keep an eye on the shaking - do you mean like a sort of shivering?


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

MizzPooch said:


> I presume you have been along to the vets for his vaccs - when you were there did they give him a puppy check? If you are at all concerned I would pop him along to your vets - and I would keep an eye on the shaking - do you mean like a sort of shivering?


He had a quick check over by the vet before his first vaccinations. He found nothing wrong with his temperature, heart rate etc. But back then the problems werent anywhere near as bad.

Will take him down to the vets today so we can tell him about all this. Its sort of shivering but it seems to just be in certain areas of his body like his head and his front legs.


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## MizzPooch (Jun 16, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> He had a quick check over by the vet before his first vaccinations. He found nothing wrong with his temperature, heart rate etc. But back then the problems werent anywhere near as bad.
> 
> Will take him down to the vets today so we can tell him about all this. Its sort of shivering but it seems to just be in certain areas of his body like his head and his front legs.


So, its not all over? I would definitely mention it to the vets - for your own peace of mind if nothing else. Fingers crossed its nothing serious. Keep us updated x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the shaking, staring & vacant, sluggish behavior do sound neurological. 
many POISONS or reactions to certain meds have neuro-symps.

Philodendron is a houseplant, a tropical vine with heart-shaped glossy leaves, which can affect the kidneys 
dangerously & has neuro-symptoms - especially in cats, who are smaller than many dogs & do NOT process 
toxins well; dogs are more likely to eat poisonous things [ignore warning tastes], cats are more likely to die.

FLEA preventive can also cause neuro-symptoms: shivering skin as if shaking flies off, running waves of 
shivers like wind across grass stirring the hair, shaking head, eyes twitching back & forth in their sockets 
vs holding a steady gaze, rear-end weakness [waver like a drunk or SIT abruptly while walking], & so on.

is he out in the garden alone? 
mushrooms can spring up in a matter of hours, & many dogs will eat them indiscriminately.

eating the inedible [potpourri, etc] can introduce neurotoxins, too.

BCs often have the GENE-VARIANT that means they cannot have an entire group of drugs - there's a test 
for this, now; 'white feet, don't treat' is the veterinary mantra, but many breeds affected lack white feet. 
Pharmacogenetics: It


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> the shaking, staring & vacant, sluggish behavior do sound neurological.
> many POISONS or reactions to certain meds have neuro-symps.
> 
> Philodendron is a houseplant, a tropical vine with heart-shaped glossy leaves, which can affect the kidneys
> ...


Thankyou for all of that information. We always keep an eye on him when hes out and dont let him chew at plants. Ive never seen him eat any mushrooms either. He had a spot on flea treatment a couple of days ago, so maybe this could be causing it. Weve noticed a weakness in his back legs - sometimes he doesnt seem steady when walking. He also has had alot of eye twitching and rolling but that was in and out of sleep, we thought it was just that he slept alot with his eyes open.

I will give an update when hes back from the vets.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Does sound to me that it could be neurological, I do have a dog that was having seizures and hers wasnt epilepsy though at all turned out to be autoimmune hypo thyroid, there are lots of problems as has been mentioned that can cause seizures Epiform type symptoms that are not in fact epilepsy.

Border collies can also be very sensitive to certain flea and worming treatments too, and the chemicals in them. Without double checking a reaction to these I think can cause similar symptoms. There is different types of seizure too, mines 2nd was a grand mal full blown seizure, the first time it happened though was just excessive drooling, wide dilated pupils and disorientation and weakness, in fact as she had not long been back from a walk she at first was treated for something toxic ingested, until the 2nd a month later which there was no doubt about it was a full blown seizure. I believe there is epilepsy in the BC too I think. Although for a pup it can be morelikely to be other causes as if I remember rightly true epilepsy prime time for appearance is usually a 1/2 years. Think if it were me I would be asking for a haemotology and biochemisty work up. Liver problems too can be known to cause seizures as well as other physical and endocrine disorders, although endocrine requires specific testing.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> Thankyou for all of that information. We always keep an eye on him when hes out and dont let him chew at plants. Ive never seen him eat any mushrooms either. He had a spot on flea treatment a couple of days ago, so maybe this could be causing it. Weve noticed a weakness in his back legs - sometimes he doesnt seem steady when walking. He also has had alot of eye twitching and rolling but that was in and out of sleep, we thought it was just that he slept alot with his eyes open.
> 
> I will give an update when hes back from the vets.


Hi Everyone

Firstly, thankyou all so very much for all your advice so far, im Hannahbee's partner in crime Nick 

Little Charlie has been an absolute NIGHTMARE again today with the biting (and I dont in any way mean nipping  ), he starts the day a little nippy and progresses into a vicious terror as the day and evening goes on. He has drawn blood with me twice today and since coming back from the vets he just will not listen to Hannah or myself at all when it comes to biting us or the furniture. when he bit me yesterday it took two hours with a sock tightly wrapped around my calf to stop the bleeding we really are at our wits end.

I rang up the RSPCA earlier and spoke to a nurse about his behaviour and she will send out a questionaire to try and assess him and see if she can help, we also spoke with a 1 on 1 behaviourist and her prices were FAR beyond our means (in the hundreds), he is 3 weeks away from being able to enroll in training (due to his vaccinations) which also seems way too pricey for us on our very limited funds, we have tried all the advice all of you kind people have shared with us so far and have spent the last 4 days with NO life whatsoever, spending all of our time reading, writing and talking on the phone when we are not dealing with young mr bitey himself. We cant even get on with our work to try and earn money to pay for any help. It seems an almost impossible situation :mad2:

He was *better* in regards to eating my trousers when I took him to the vets earlier and had to sit in the park for nearly an hour because it was temporarily closed due to an emergency. He still tried to rag me, but when I told him to sit and calm down, he seemed to behave some of the time, which is a bit of an improvement on yesterday.

He might well have problems, the vet wants me to take him down on weds for a few hours during the day so they can keep an eye on him, also to record any more bizare behaviour on our phones.

I take him for most of his walks, I discourage him from eating everything in sight, but obv with an excited pup its hard work (without pulling hard on his lead and hurting him, which is of course a no no) I havnt seen him eat or chew anything too bad, but he has been chewing up a lot of grass, so anything hidden in the grass like mushrooms IS possible. so anything toxic he may have ingested may be causing his shaking, his wobbling about and his vacant staring episodes, but his biting just seems to have progressed, it seems to excite him when I yelp or growl a no at him and he gets a lot worse if I try to walk away, he seems to HaTe being told to stop/drop/let go, which just cant continue.

Hannah has become scared of charlie and I have lost almost a stone through not feeling like eating out of sheer frustration. 

So a massive thankyou again for all the advice, we are not expecting it to stop overnight or anything unrealistic, but we really would like to see just a TINY improvement to show us that it IS possible to train this little hairy man and turn him into the good dog we would love him to be.

ANY further help and advice would be very very welcomed (here's hoping), cheers guys.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I would have a create or baby gate up, every time he bites he would get timeout. 

I'm sorry your having such a hard time of it, have you contacted the breeder for help? or would that be a no go?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

A stone? Can I borrow him for a few weeks to kick start my diet? 


But definate the crate and the babygate, and as much as you can try please ignore his cries and barks/whines.

If he senses that you're angry/frustrated/resentful he will pick up on it and react accordingly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It might help a little if you posted the circumstances under which you got him, did you go for a local ad, or look for a breeder who health tests appropriately?

I am known as a forthright person, and you may or may not have seen posts where I've been critical of less than ethical breeders  but by no means would I expect every puppy buyer going to get it right first time, so please don't be put off posting information that may be useful in getting the information you want.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Which translates to:

"I'm a grumpy cow who loves upsetting people because I can, and I drink too much wine"


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> Which translates to:
> 
> "I'm a grumpy cow who loves upsetting people because I can, and I drink too much wine"


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> I would have a create or baby gate up, every time he bites he would get timeout.
> 
> I'm sorry your having such a hard time of it, have you contacted the breeder for help? or would that be a no go?


We will have to get a crate for him yes, as soon as we can afford one! :\

A baby gate would still leave us the same problems with getting in and out of the kitchen/toilet which is a nightmare when he cant be trusted in any room alone, he seems to calm down in the hall after a while MoSt of the time, although he found his way into the shoe cupboard earlier and had a right go at a pair of hannahs shoes.

As for contacting the breeder, he is more of a guy who was just out to make money on an *accident* it seems, :frown2: I may try ringing him tomorrow evening though just to ask about his background and if he had any seizures or other weird behaviour before we got the little fella.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Humped One said:


> We will have to get a crate for him yes, as soon as we can afford one! :\
> 
> A baby gate would still leave us the same problems with getting in and out of the kitchen/toilet which is a nightmare when he cant be trusted in any room alone, he seems to calm down in the hall after a while MoSt of the time, although he found his way into the shoe cupboard earlier and had a right go at a pair of hannahs shoes.
> 
> As for contacting the breeder, he is more of a guy who was just out to make money on an *accident* it seems, :frown2: I may try ringing him tomorrow evening though just to ask about his background and if he had any seizures or other weird behaviour before we got the little fella.


Crates are quite cheap on ebay I would think a 36" one would be ok for a BC pup Dog Cages Small Medium Large All Sizes In This Listing | eBay £26.60 with free delivery . If i lived near you, you could of had my old one, you could try posting a wanted thread in the classified bit on here, there a lots of very generous people on here


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It might help a little if you posted the circumstances under which you got him, did you go for a local ad, or look for a breeder who health tests appropriately?
> 
> I am known as a forthright person, and you may or may not have seen posts where I've been critical of less than ethical breeders  but by no means would I expect every puppy buyer going to get it right first time, so please don't be put off posting information that may be useful in getting the information you want.


We got Charlie from an ad on gumtree and they had one on another site too, he was the last to go from a litter of 11 and was reduced in price supposedly because he just wanted to get rid of them all, (which I am *slightly suspicious of now). I can only presume there were no health checks as he was 9 weeks when we got him and hadnt been seen by a vet at all.

I am critical of/annoyed by less than ethical breeders also, it seems our naievity and kind nature was possibly taken advantage of  dont worry about being forthright or even having stern words with us, I have been through the pup stage once myself with a lab x german shepherd and he was annoying...but nothing like this and also the *runt* of the litter and he turned out to be a fantastic dog.

*bite update** He has just gone complEEEtely wild eyed again and was relentlessly biting everything in his path, everytime I try and stop him, pick him up or distract him I get bitten very hard while he growls and whines, he's drawn blood for the 4th time as well as the tens of lesser wounds ive suffered today :confused5: ( i'm used to dog bites and nibbles from my parents dog and im no pansy, but this is getting serious). He paws at his face a lot and chews his back legs a lot too while all this behaviour is happening and seems to whine in frustration at something, what that something is however remains a mystery unfortunately... he was checked for fleas at the vet and I have checked him several times myself for anything that might be causing him pain or distress, its upsetting to see and I really feel for the little man (and my poor tattered flesh as i try to stop the bleeding)


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> A stone? Can I borrow him for a few weeks to kick start my diet?
> 
> But definate the crate and the babygate, and as much as you can try please ignore his cries and barks/whines.
> 
> If he senses that you're angry/frustrated/resentful he will pick up on it and react accordingly.


lol, he does seem like the ideal diet aide  im just hoping I havnt lost all that weight in blood and chunks of flesh 

Will find a crate as soon as I get payed on Friday, we do ignore his crying and that sometimes stops him but he seems to work himself up all on his own  when left to calm down in time out or when either of us leaves the room or the front door.

I try my very best also to try and stay calm in front of him and although I never would hit my lil man the pain sometimes makes me want to :shocked: Hannah does flinch away from him though but that cant really be helped as its brought back her old fear of dogs. if it was playful biting I would be able to explain it as natural but it is getting vicious and he is even starting to unnerve me. I certainly dont like leaving him alone with Hannah anymore, I would rather take the bites than her.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> Crates are quite cheap on ebay I would think a 36" one would be ok for a BC pup Dog Cages Small Medium Large All Sizes In This Listing | eBay £26.60 with free delivery . If i lived near you, you could of had my old one, you could try posting a wanted thread in the classified bit on here, there a lots of very generous people on here


Thankyou, that is indeed a plan, (and more affordable than I had seen) I will get on with that as soon as I wipe the sleep out of my eyes in the morning, but the teeth on legs has really tired me out!

I hope he is ok tonight and gets some sleep himself rather than working himself up again.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I think one of the main problems you have is that you got a dog without proper financial support for it, i.e. no money for crate, or training classes etc. I'm not trying to offend you.

I really don't know what to suggest rather than a behaviourist but they can be quite pricey and if you can't afford it then I don't know what else.

I'm so sorry, send Hannah my hugs!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It is virtually impossible to advise you properly over the internet. :001_huh: Where dog-to-human aggression is concerned, it is not advisable either.

From what you describe, this seems to be a case for the vet, not just to check for fleas but to check him over thoroughly for neurological problems etc. In some rare cases the problem can be brain related. I don't wish to scare you though but please take him for a really good checking over and then seriously consider getting a referral (the vet should be able to refer you to someone) who can see this dog in real life and work out what the cause of his behaviour is. Only then will you know for sure what his problem is and receive correct advice.

Let us know how you go on.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

no offense taken, granted we could have planned a little better. It was mainly my fault for being so confident we could take care of him without all that tbh so that blame falls on me :S, without getting too personal we have just recieved two huge bills we hadnt counted on being so big...so its kind of thrown us financially until friday, what with buying him two lots of food too,

I also havnt known anyone who has gone through training or behaviourists before (possibly due to my own poor breeding *cough cough*) so before coming on here we didnt really know it was an option, my fault for not doing the research ( see, I dont mind admitting when I'm a fool )


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Humped One said:


> We will have to get a crate for him yes, as soon as we can afford one! :\


a 30-inch long USED airline-approved shipping-crate should be quite cheap - see Craigslist, e-Bay, FreeCycle, 
& similar used-gear websites, or consignment shops [charity shops for hospitals, handicapped, etc] 
for a used fiberglass clamshell-type crate: 2 halves, [ STAMPED ] with the dimensions & maker's name, 
a windowless bottom-half, a *perforated top-half* [rather than grid-screens, choose cut-slots], 
& a door which can be mounted right-hand or left-hand hinge, with a SPRING-loaded catch which pops pins 
into the door-frame at the top & bottom of the door.

Vari Kennel Ultra Fashion

their brand-new Intermediate is 80-Brit-pounds new, so there should be used ones from 35 to 40-Brit-pounds.



Humped One said:


> A baby gate would still leave us the same problems... getting in & out of the kitchen/toilet
> which is a nightmare when he cant be trusted in any room alone, he seems to calm down in the hall after a while
> MoSt of the time, altho he found his way into the shoe cupboard earlier & [shredded] a pair of Hannah's shoes.


how about a tether? 
Tethered to Success

it requires: 
- a self-screwing eyebolt, installed in a baseboard [OR in a 2-ft length of 2-by-4 for a portable tether] 
- 2 spring-clips, preferably with swiveling bases [if not, ADD a swivel] 
- a length of nylon-coated bicycle-cable, with 18-inches of free length between the clips at each end. 
- a place to install the tether, out of reach of traffic paths, so the pup cannot leap on passers-by.

multiple stations can be made by installing eyebolts in several rooms; then move tether & pup from one to the next - 
so he can be supervised, but not free to roam the room, chew things, bite people, etc.

most big-box type hardware-stores will make up a cut-to-length cable & clamp the spring-clips [and swivel] 
onto the ends, for a reasonable price.

PORTABLE TETHERS require a doorway as the station - 
- install the eyebolt OFF-center in the wide-side of a 2-by-4, 1-inch from the edge 
- clip the cable [as above] to the eyebolt; open the designated door 
- lay the 2-by-4 behind the open door, with the eyebolt toward the door 
- short-side of the 2-by-4 face-down 
- slip the cable sideways UNDER the door, with the clip on the inside. 
- close the door; clip the dog's tag-collar to the cable. :001_smile:


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

well, he has been pooping out his new good food for a day now, there is not even the faintest whiff that it has helped calm him down, when I took him for his morning walk he was trying to tear into my legs again (without pause) the entire walk, making it take 4 times longer. I have another wound on the back of my legs and when we got back he just chewed the furniture and when I firmly told him "OFF" he just continually ignores me. he knows "OFF" and obeys when it concerns a treat in my hand and he will patiently wait over 6 seconds without jumping up for it....but the word seems to apply to nothing else, even when Ive given him treats for doing as I ask.

Surely there is something properly wrong with the poor chap, we have both lost too much sleep this last 9 nights, after long days of him terrorizing us, im not sure we can cope with him much longer. 

I will ring the guy we got him from this evening to ask if there was anything wrong with him that he failed to mention (not in those exact words though).

If it werent for him being vicious and in no way playing when he bit, he would be a fantastic pup   so upsetting.


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## MizzPooch (Jun 16, 2011)

Do you know anyone else that keeps dogs who could maybe let you borrow a crate - even just a small one that would do for the next few weeks? Or do you know anyone with a babydan playpen? (these can be folded out into a line so you can cordon off a section of room). Or possibly something that you could 'fashion' to give him an enclosed 'den'? If he has somewhere he can make his safe den, then he will be happier and it will give you some space. Then when he is a bit bigger and you have some pennies you can invest in a good crate for yourselves.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I wanted to add some extra bit of info. We rang up the RSPCA centre in Bristol for some advice about Charlie. They seemed to think his behavior pointed towards neurological problems too. We cant afford to get all the tests and x rays to see if he has infact got these problems as insurance wont cover it . I wanted to see if I could get one of my family members to take him for their farm, being around other border collies may help him a bit and it means we can still go and see him. The rspca said that our only other option would be a shelter which there is a big waiting list for. Also that its most likely that if he has the neurological problems that they think, they will put him down  This is deffinately not what we want for our little man.

I see theres alot of advice about crates. We could get one but Im not sure how it will stop his biting. Hes quite happy to go to his bed in the hallway and have a rest. But everytime he comes back hes biting. Wouldnt this still happen with a crate?


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Sorry, that last post was from me...Logged in as the wrong person.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

You could try some natural calmatives there is KalmAid it contains a combination of two anxiety relieving amino acids and vitamin supplements, comes in liquid and tablet form for dogs and is caramel flavoured. It can calm some dogs within an hour or two, its not a drug and is completely safe, for dogs that are stressed, unruly nervous or fearful. Dont know if there is a minimum age for use or not but should be easy enough to find out Pet Medication, Pet Food, Pet Meds, Discount Pet Medication - VioVet - VioVet

There is also scullcap and valerian which is herbal, its one of the favourite anxiety relieving medications of richard allport who has a centre for natural and herbal therapies as well as being a conventional vet. It can also be used to help in some cases of epilepsy, it doesnt cause drowsiness. Those are availble in tablet form and safe for long term use, again though you would need to check there is no minimum age Dorwest

Dr Petals elixirs can also help with anxiety and behaviour problems Under Construction

Denes naatural pet care also do natural remedies
Natural Pet Care for Dogs and Cats - Denes Natural Pet Care

Prices of the above vary infact the Denes are only around £6.50 I think although none are wildly espensive. It might be something worth looking into.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Humped One said:


> I see [there's a lot] of advice about crates. We could get one, but I'm not sure how it will stop his biting.
> He's quite happy to go to his bed in the [hall & rest]. But every time he comes back, he's biting.
> Wouldn't this still happen with a crate?


part of what U complained about was CHEWING - among other things, Ur shoes, Hannah.

short of putting child-proof locks on every single cupboard & drawer that he can reach, a crate is one sure way 
of preventing destruction, or damage, to both one's property AND the puppy: electric wires, remote-batteries, etc. 
COINS these days can be lethal - in the USA, pennies used to be copper; now they are *zinc* spray-painted 
with copper; in less than 24-hours, a pup can be hospitalized with zinc-poisoning if they are under 10#.

crates keep pups AND property safe - plus, an airline-style crate is the gold standard for transport: 
tested for burst-strength, good ventilation, protects from airborne items, protects from impact.

airline-approved crates also have *solid* bottoms, so spilled water, food, urine, vomit or feces 
don't get all over the floor - which with a WIRE crate AKA show-crate and the shallow, bendable, crack-prone tray, 
are very likely to be painted on nearby walls, if the pup tries to dig at the door in distress [let alone the carpet].

shipping-crates have solid *ROOFS* - which mean the leash can safely be parked there, without worrying that 
the pup will drag it in & destroy it, or worse yet, get hung-up in it, hurt or [unlikely but possible] strangled.

that solid roof & minimal window-area makes a pup feel more secure & has a sense of privacy, unlike a wire-cage, 
which is more like living in a goldfish bowl: open on all sides to view by others, or to see out; fingers, sticks, 
cat's paws, etc, can poke in from anywhere.

a pup LYING DOWN in a shipping-crate cannot be poked in the eye or nose or butt, etc, by a passing toddler: 
the windows are set too high, & most pups don't sleep jammed against the front door: they curl-up midway 
or in the back. Being safe from tail-pulls, ear-pokes & so on is very comforting to a pup or dog.

last but not least: 
for the rest of a dog's life, a *shipping crate* is a portable bedroom: i have stayed in 4-star hotels, 
with my dog & a crate - generally the dog left WITH me & was very, very rarely alone in my room - 
but if they were solo, the maid could clean, swap towels, etc, & the dog was quite content & safe.

if there's an emergency, a CRATE can mean being able to have one's dog in a shelter - or being separated. 
it means being able to stuff the crated dog into the car with clothes, food, water, etc, & *leave together -* 
vs abandon Ur pet & hope that U get back before they are dead of thirst, starve, or escape, drown, are shot 
by the police, & so on - which happens to many dogs in wildfires, floods, tornados, quakes, & hurricanes, 
to name just a few emergencies of the natural sort, & ignoring CIVIL emergencies.

how far away is the nearest nuclear-power plant? Industrial plant? 
Railroad line hauling chemicals in tank cars? _Stuff happens._

a shipping-crate means U can cope with whatever it is, much more easily.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Hi everyone.

Dont know if anyone gets emailed when I update this thread but I wanted to let you know whats been going on.

We have taken him to the vets everyday for the past 3 days for tests and observation. We think he had another fit yesterday which we managed to film and showed to the vets who are sending it elsewhere for examination. His blood test for liver and kidneys have come back clear and they are testing him again on saturday for other things. 

For the past 2 days hes been perfect, no biting and hes been sleeping through the night. 
Just now something very very strange happened. He was having a chew on his toys, being very quiet and good for an hour or so. He then stood up and started jumping up and INTO the floor head first, bashing his head over and over on the floor while barking. This was followed straight away by thrashing about and dragging his paws over his head again and again and biting his back legs. He then ran up to me and Nick and started biting and growling. It started about 15 minutes ago and he hasnt stopped. 

Were supposed to go back to the vets on saturday, but as you can imagine were very concerned. Weve made the connection that he seems to bite his back legs and drag his paws over his face before he goes into a hyped up state of biting and barking, but hes never bashed his head into the floor before or been this bad. It was very sudden and very aggressive. 

Has anyone got any experience of this with their dogs? We dont understand how he can go from being calm and happy to that


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

My Lord.. I have no idea!

Thanks for keeing us updated, was wondering where you had gone. Did the vet have any incling what it might be?

*hugs*


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

One I can think of is something in his ear for example a fly... Last time it happened to me.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I presume his had his ears examined by the vets? 

Poor pup, it really does sound like he has underlying issues 

I hope you get some answers soon x


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks guys, he has settled again now, it took around 15-20 mins for him to calm down even in time out (where he is usually calm and happy on his bed) he was chewing at the door, barking, crying and running into both the living room and kitchen doors which is a LOT worse than when he is just a little unruly or giddy or wanting attention 

He calmed down as fast as he snapped...very fast, he was also VERY thirsty afterwards and I filled his bowl up twice straight after,

The Vet we have been taking him to has taken a special interest in little Charlie and done numerous tests free of charge, he has checked his ears twice while I have been there and told me there is absolutely nothing noticably wrong, his temporature was fine, his weight is fine, and he has been there with the vet for 4 hours per day for the past two days with none of the symptoms occuring while there.

As to what it may be, after his blood test today ruling out some kidney and liver disorders I think he said his blood sugar was borderline, nothing too bad but something to keep an eye on, also that he will be taking further tests on saturday to try and narrow it down further. He said it may be a reaction to the worming treatment he had before we got him, the flea drops we gave him on the 2nd day of him being here or something else he has munched from the grass possibly...I will try to contact the guy I got him from to find out the brand that he gave Charlie, If it isnt a toxic reaction then he said it may well be neurological and he couldnt at the moment rule out epilepsy (any of the different kinds). He may end up needing tests doing by specialists at the University lab which will run into the hundreds, we cant afford it after all we have spent so far on him :mad2: :frown2:

It's heartbreaking to see the poor little man so frustrated and wild when it happens,  he wont let us near him to try and comfort him (I attempted a few times ending in many bites, snarls and barks)....I reAlly hope it is something treatable.

Thank you all again for your interest and concerns, will keep you posted,

Nick


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi, I am new to hear but have had some great advice from the members. I have a Lab/Collie 6 mths. We re-homed him at 4 half months. i have been dipping in and out of your posts and am really sorry to hear about you dog's behaviour. I feel for you. x

Sorry I have no advice for you , but I do hope you get somewhere with the tests etc. My first thought was epilepsy.. hope he's not in pain. Bless. x


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Humped One said:


> no offense taken, granted we could have planned a little better. It was mainly my fault for being so confident we could take care of him without all that tbh so that blame falls on me :S, without getting too personal we have just recieved two huge bills we hadnt counted on being so big...so its kind of thrown us financially until friday, what with buying him two lots of food too,
> 
> I also havnt known anyone who has gone through training or behaviourists before (possibly due to my own poor breeding *cough cough*) so before coming on here we didnt really know it was an option, my fault for not doing the research ( see, I dont mind admitting when I'm a fool )


Hi, I have bites too, not as bad though; but do understand how you feel.
If you see a behaviourist PLEASE reasearch then too! I paid £30, thought I was on track with training my puppy (see Hyper Puppy?') thread & 'Follow up on Hyper Puppy' (if you have time!) and have found out their methods are 'dominating' a dog. I had also signed up for their classes. It has backfired however, as the method may have contributed towards his behaviour. Now booked with another that was recommended with an approved organisation - thanks to the PF 'friends'.

Keep us all posted. Best wishes. x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Dont know if anyone gets emailed when I update this thread but I wanted to let you know whats been going on.
> 
> ...


As I had a dog who was having seizures I knew there were different types. Found this, the last paragraph especially sounds like it could fit to a degree

Partial seizures: Partial seizures are also called focal seizures and as the name indicates, the electrical storm is affecting only a part of the brain. A partial seizure may stay localized or it may expand to the whole brain and cause a tonic-clonic seizure. Because the seizure starts in only a part of the brain, an underlying disease or injury is highly suspected. A partial seizure may remain localized or spread to other parts of the cerebral cortex producing a sequential involvement of other body parts.

Partial seizures are classified as simple focal seizures when consciousness is preserved and as complex focal seizures when consciousness is altered. Any portion of the body may be involved during a focal seizure depending on the region of the brain affected.

In a simple partial seizure, the area of the brain that is affected is the area that controls movement. Usually the face is affected, resulting in twitching or blinking. This is usually limited to one side of the face. If the seizure spreads, other parts of the body on that same side will be affected. The dog is usually alert and aware of his surroundings.

A complex partial seizure will originate in the area of the brain that controls behavior and is sometimes called a psychomotor seizure. During this type of seizure, a dogs consciousness is altered and he may exhibit bizarre behavior such as unprovoked aggression or extreme irrational fear. He may run uncontrollably, engage in senseless, repetitive behavior or have fly-snapping episodes where he appears to be biting at imaginary flies around his head.

Ive also checked up below main causes of seizures 1Year old in order of likely cause.

Under each age category (the age when seizures first occurred), the possible causes (etiology) are approximately listed as the most likely first and the least likely cause last.

LESS THAN 1 YEAR OF AGE

Anomaly: hydrocephalus.

Inflammatory:
Infectious - Viral: canine distemper; parasitic; bacterial; fungal
Immune mediated

Metabolic:
Hepatic - portosystemic shunt; Autoimmune thyroiditis (early stage: TgAA 
positive); Hypoglycemia; Electrolyte disorders

Toxic: Single or combination vaccines; Lead; Drug related; Other exposures

Trauma: Acute; Delayed

Degenerative: Storage disorders

Primary: Idiopathic Epilepsy ("idiopathic" = cause unknown or undetermined)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just found this as well that might be some help or possibly give you some ideas
if it is a type of seizure some of the common triggers








POTENTIAL SEIZURE TRIGGERS





Most seizures seem to occur spontaneously, however, we have found that certain chemicals and emotional stress factors can trigger a seizure. Any kind of stress to your dog is a potential seizure trigger.

The Guardian Angels have put together a list of things that may trigger seizures in some epi's. Remember, not all triggers will apply to all epi's. In order for something to be considered a seizure trigger the time between the trigger and the seizure is within 30 hours except in the case of vaccinations which can be up to 45 days.

To reduce seizures please pay attention to the list below and see if you can avoid a seizure.

Stress Factors:

* Changes in routine caused by construction, visitors, new family members etc.
* Being left alone
* Car Rides
* Visits to the vet
* Thunder storms
* Changes in barometric pressure
* Extreme cold weather
* Flashing lights from television, cameras, Christmas trees or lightning
* Angry voices
* Loud arguments between people (dogs think you are angry at them and it is the worst kind of stress for them)
* Fatigue
* Nervousness
* Anxiety
* Going too long between meals
* Prolonged excitement
* Any changes, sudden, subtle, radical, etc. (food, environment, etc.)

Medications:

*Vaccinations
*Heartworm Medications
*Flea and Tick preventative
*Some prescription medications

Yard and Garden:

*Lawn Treatments
*Fertilizers
*Herbicides
* Insecticides
* Bee and Wasp venom
* Toad poisoning
* Cedar shavings (in dog beds also)

Household

* Scented candles
* Perfume
* Loud music
* Cigarette smoke

Household Products:

*Pine Sol or cleaners with pine oil or scent.
*Kerosene for lamps
*Camphor
*Eucalyptus
*Borax or Boric Acid (sometimes used to treat fleas)
*Deck and wall stains
*Polyurethane fumes
*Paint fumes

Foods and Spices:

* Turkey (for some dogs)
* Caffeine
* Walnuts
* Moldy cheese
* Rosemary Oil
* Saffron
* Sage
* Foods with Ethoxyquin, BHA or BHT
* Treats with Ethoxyquin, BHA or BHT
* Rawhide Treats
* Pigs feet
* MSG (sometimes called natural flavoring, smoke flavoring etc)
* Changes in dietary chloride (salt) content (from a change in food, treats or water) for dogs on Potassium Bromide


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

I just wanted to say, don't worry too much about the flat. Like you said, its not ideal for anyone, but puppys do adapt really well. My grandparents had a BC, they lived in a house but didn't allow the dog upstairs so he only had access to the hall, living/dinning room and kitchen and he was a perfectly content, happy dog.  I think it's easy to be hard on yourself at this stage and expect too much, so don't add to those worries by stressing about the flat too :thumbup1:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Humped One said:


> It's heartbreaking to see the poor little man so frustrated and wild when it happens,  he wont let us near him to try and comfort him (I attempted a few times ending in many bites, snarls and barks)....I reAlly hope it is something treatable.
> 
> Thank you all again for your interest and concerns, will keep you posted,
> 
> Nick


I do hope that they can get to the bottom of what his problems are without causing you too much stress emotionally and financially. 

This is why I am always loathe to dish out advice about unpredictable aggression online as there can often be so much going on that we cannot see but a vet can.

I am only sorry that you are having to deal with such difficulties when really, you should be enjoying the thrills and spills of a new puppy.  My very best to you and I hope that you get answers soon.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> A complex partial seizure will originate in the area of the brain that controls behavior and is sometimes called a psychomotor seizure. During this type of seizure, a dogs consciousness is altered and he may exhibit bizarre behavior such as unprovoked aggression or extreme irrational fear. He may run uncontrollably, engage in senseless, repetitive behavior or have fly-snapping episodes where he appears to be biting at imaginary flies around his head.
> 
> Anomaly: hydrocephalus.
> 
> ...


Thankyou for taking the time to post all that, I have left in the ones that the vets think are most likely causes, the ones we have been discussing this last week that we havnt already ruled out.

Also Ive left in the non ruled out potential triggers that I will be keeping a close eye on...



Sled dog hotel said:


> POTENTIAL SEIZURE TRIGGERS
> 
> Stress Factors:
> 
> ...


He saw the Vet again first thing this morning after last nights worrying episode, more blood tests for the little man on monday, poop sample also. 
This next blood test will rule out a lot more problems and hopefully a treatable diagnosis can be made. He brought it to my attention (over a coffee) that if it is a brain lesure (think thats right) or something untreatable then there wont be any option left but to put him to sleep     

He just had the starts of another "episode" but showed no signs of aggression this time, and is asleep on his bed at peace. the Vets also just called me and asked to see me again this afternoon to have another chat, so will update you all later.

Many Many thanks once again.


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

Hi HO & Hannah, I have just read right through this thread with great interest & dismay at what your going through & am sorry to say that I can't offer you any practical advice or suggestions. I wish you, Hannah & wee Charlie all the best though & hope there is a happy outcome for you all.

I would like to say however, a big thanks to all the other members who have taken part in this thread with offers of information, advice & support. I think they've all been just wonderful. There really are some fantastic people on this site.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

Roobster2010 said:


> I would like to say however, a big thanks to all the other members who have taken part in this thread with offers of information, advice & support. I think you've all been just wonderful. There really are some fantastic people on this site.


Thanks Roobster, I echo what you said about the site, its so nice to have all this support, we would have been totally lost without you guys. Our Vets have also been amazingly caring which has helped too.

It's a stressful time but all the advice has sped up knowing what to do to help our little man, if I could afford to buy you all a drink I would. *tips cap*


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## abbiechi (Jul 2, 2011)

I hope things work out okay, unfortunately I can't offer any advice but I know a lot of amazing members have given you lots to think about.

Keep us upated.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Humped One said:


> Thankyou for taking the time to post all that, I have left in the ones that the vets think are most likely causes, the ones we have been discussing this last week that we havnt already ruled out.
> 
> Also Ive left in the non ruled out potential triggers that I will be keeping a close eye on...
> 
> ...


I noticed that in the tests so far "The Blood sugar was borderline nothing too bad" personally when vets tell me borderline or high or low end of normal Im never happy and Ive often with a bit of digging found it isnt something to ignore.

Has he told you by Borderline he means low borderline ot high Border Line?
Only I picked up that one of the causes of "seizures" is Hypoglacemia ie low glucose/blood sugar. Blood sugar can fluctuate any way depending on what an animal is doing at the time, Usual scenario as I understand it is stress, as in going to the vets having blood taken, is classed as stressful for a lot of dogs so that could/should in theory elevate the levels, so if his come out as Low border line under stress then could that mean he can have periods of seriously low blood sugar (Hypoglacemia) which is one of the known causes of seizures.
I did notice on your edited list of what I posted the vet seems to haave left that in as a possible.

My Biology and Bio chemistry is really rusty so Ive had to do some checking for things I forgot/not so sure about. 
Glucose is required by the brain every second its dependant to make use of oxgen. One of the symptoms if you put actual seizures aside even is guess what pets can become vocal and aggressive. Apparently the more the increase in physical activity the higher the requirement on the blood sugar, So if he goes into high physical activity when he has these episodes and its low anyway which is thats what causes it, I would think his brain would be competing with the physical side and his requirements would be even higher. Dehydration I also saw mentioned interestingly enough and I believe you said he drank loads after the episode he was so thirsty. On the other hand Im pretty certain that too High blood sugar must have pretty significant symptoms too, havent gone into to that as Hypo seems main thing linked with his Seizure type symptoms.

I think he has Left in Hepatic which is liver function too, which seems to make sense as I think Insulin/pancreatic/liver is linked to blood sugar levels too if I remember rightly.

Im not a vet I hasten to add, just really throwing around ideas and thoughts,
but it could possibly fit the scenario, especially as Blood sugar levels are borderline and so far thats the only thing thats come up.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Humped One said:


> Thankyou for taking the time to post all that, I have left in the ones that the vets think are most likely causes, the ones we have been discussing this last week that we havnt already ruled out.
> 
> Also Ive left in the non ruled out potential triggers that I will be keeping a close eye on...
> 
> ...


Just another thought as I said Im only focusing aroubnd blood sugar levels as thats all thats kicked up at the moment, but does his episodes centre mostly around feeding times, just another idea kicking around, but food of course would have impact on the gloucose levels. Pups should be on 3 to 4 meals a day anyway, but Im wondering if he gets them/ they become worse when a meals due or maybe if the meals later than normal. Also exercise seems to play a part too, the more active the increase in need for blood sugar too, so if say he comes back from a walk (interestingly enough is it you who mentioned about weakness in his legs/the weird behaviour happens more on return from the walk??) and before he has a meal does he seem to be his worse then, when he would have high demands on his blood sugar and before its topped up again so to speak. As I say this theory is all around low, but the fluctuations/requirments would also happen at the other end of the scale too.
sorry for ramble thinking out loud so to speak.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this is a stretch, but i will throw it into the ring for consideration, anyway:

has he had any access to items containing _Xylitol?_ 
it's used as a low-calorie sweetener in many, many items; for some time it was only in 'diet' foods like sugar-free gum 
or sugar-free candy, NOW it's in baked-goods, cosmetics, salad dressings, lip-balm, toothpaste... Heaven knows what.

Xylitol causes a precipitous DROP in blood-sugar when eaten by dogs; in sufficient dosage per pound, 
the dog can be seizing in 15-minutes & comatose in 20; the effect is incredibly fast.
Tic-Tac candies are the single item that has caused the most Xylitol-deaths among USA-dogs.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> this is a stretch, but i will throw it into the ring for consideration, anyway:
> 
> has he had any access to items containing _Xylitol?_
> it's used as a low-calorie sweetener in many, many items; for some time it was only in 'diet' foods like sugar-free gum
> ...


This IS interesting... he has a fixation with chewing gum on the floor in the street, (grrrrr) I always watch him closely when he is outside because I know how fascinated he is with everything he encounters but he has never managed to eat any, he has licked and tried to many times though. I will mention it to the vets when I go down in a minute. thankyou


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Humped One said:


> he has a fixation with chewing gum on the floor in the street, (grrrrr) I always watch him
> closely when he is outside because I know how fascinated he is with everything he encounters, but he's never managed to eat any,
> he has licked and tried to many times though.
> I will mention it to the vets when I go down in a minute.


conditioning him to happily wear a habituated box-muzzle would preclude him licking or biting the gum - 
or for that matter, biting a person. 
see UTube for *muzzle training, clicker* as search-terms - just 'muzzle training' can bring up nasty things, 
as well as the desired *pair happy-events* with a basket AKA box-muzzle & *have the DOG put their face into it*.

look at the muzzle? click, treat. 
approach the muzzle? click, treat. 
nose the muzzle? click, treat. 
stick their face in it? click, treat. 
stick their face in & PUSH, holding it on? click, treat. 
stick their face in & STAY there, while the handler lifts the straps? click, treat. 
stick their face in, stay there WHILE the strap is buckled? click, treat. 
and so on...


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Hi Everyone here comes another update!

Lots has been going on, Charlies been at the vets everyday for the past 10 days now I think! Weve been given a list of everything hes been tested for so far...

LIVER FUNCTION
ALP (Alkaline phosphatase)
ALB (Albumin)
ALT (Alanine Aminotransferase)
TBIL (Total bilirubin)
TP (Total protein) - Slightly higher
GLOB (Globulin) - Very low

PANCREAS
AMY (Amylase)

KIDNEY FUNCTION
BUN - (Blood Urea Nitrogen)

ELECTROLYTES
CA (Calcium)
PHOS (Phosphorus)
K+ (Potassium)
NA+ (Sodium) - I think this was slightly higher than it should be

GENERAL METABOLISM
GLU (Glucose) - slightly lower than normal.

CRE -Sorry I dont know much about what this ones for.

The vets wanted to do further tests at PDSA. He went in for more blood tests to look for portosystemic shunt today which we dont know the results of yet. Were completely unsure of what the future holds for poor Charlie. Theres a chance whatever he has is treatable but weve also been told that theres a chance he may have to be put to sleep.

His behavior is getting worse in general following his episodes with the head pawing and crying (and fits? still not sure)

Obviously weve only had him for 3 weeks and as most of his time since then has been spent in and out of vets weve been hit quite badly financially. We hope we can find out whats wrong soon!

Has anyone else had any experience with Portosystemic Shunt?

Will keep everyone posted. Hope you dont mind all the details! I know Ive been asked that sort of stuff before by some people on here, so hopefully it could be helpfull in some way.

Hannah


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

i hope you get a result that there is a positive result for


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

Thanks for the update on poor Charlie, i've not posted on this thread before because i have no real experience or advice for you but i hope you can get to the bottom of what is troubling the young lad.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Not had first hand experience of portosystemic shunt, but Nanuq my youngests brother had it, (although a rescue litter I hear through a third party how rest are doing) From what I remember/understand but may need confirming. Its a birth defect apparently something should close off in birth to do with the liver and in these cases it doesnt. Nothing become apparent with Nans brother until after he was rehomed he must have been about 14 weeks or so. I believe he might have had vomiting and diarrhoea, then had a seizure and actually bit the owner during the episode. I think its to do with the toxic build up
of waste that occurs when the liver isnt doing its job. He went to the emergency vet they kept him in and after tests it was found to be liver shunt.
He had to have a special diet and meds, that stabalised him, then I know he had a scan as apparently there are different types and degrees of shunt. They found his was operable/repairable. He had one op where they partially fixed it,
(for some reason hes was done in two parts) if I remember rightly when he went for the 2nd Op it had actually completely repaired itself.

Not first hand experience but is as accurate as I can remember.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I did some more research on portosystemic shunts has I hate relying on memory especially if not first hand experience. Hope this may help it seemed one of the most scientific and explanatory.


Recognition and Management of
Portosystemic Shunts in Dogs 
What are portosystemic shunts? 

Portosystemic shunts are abnormal vascular connections between the hepatic portal vein (the blood vessel that connects the gastrointestinal tract with the liver) and the systemic circulation (Figure 1). Such anomalies cause blood in the gastrointestinal track to be diverted past the liver, there by limiting the liver's vital functions in metabolism and detoxification of compounds and the body's defenses against intestinally derived pathogens. This effectively exposes the body to toxic by-products of digestion (toxins and bacteria) and mimics the effects of liver failure. 
Portosystemic shunts can be present at birth (i.e. congenital) or acquired as the result of another disease process later in life. Congenital shunts are more common, representing approximately 75% of all canine cases, and generally result from anatomic abnormalities of the portal vasculature or persistence of fetal vessels. One or occasionally two vessels are involved, and the shunts are classified according to their location as either outside of (extrahepatic) or within (intrahepatic) the liver. 

CONGENITAL SHUNTS 

Congenital shunts occur more commonly in purebred dogs than in mixed breeds; miniature schnauzers, Yorkshire Terriers, and Irish Wolfhounds appear to be at increased risk. The prevalence of portosystemic shunts in certain breeds suggests an inherited predisposition. This has been proven only in Irish Wolfhounds, where a number of previously unknown genes appear to be involved. 

Extrahepatic shunts are most common, accounting for 61% to 94% of congenital shunts, and are typically seen in small breeds of dogs, such as the Miniature Schnauzer and Yorkshire Terrier. Intrahepatic shunts represent between 6% and 40% of congenital shunts and are more common in large and giant breeds of dogs such as Irish Wolfhounds and Golden Retrievers. The majority of intrahepatic shunts are a result of the embryonic connection between the umbilical vein and the caudal vena cava remaining open; in most dogs this connection closes 3 days after birth but, for unknown reasons, remains open in dogs with intrahepatic congenital shunts. 

Hepatic microvascular dysplasia is an unusual form of intrahepatic portosystemic shunting in which no gross vascular abnormality can be identified. This rare condition is associated with somewhat milder clinical signs and appears to be the consequence of a developmental abnormality; it has a higher prevalence in Cairn Terriers, suggesting a hereditary basis. 

ACQUIRED SHUNTS 

Acquired shunts arise secondary to diffuse liver disease where excessive and sustained pressure at some point within the portal vein causes embryonic, nonfunctional vascular communications to open. These are generally seen in older dogs with cirrhosis, hepatitis, or neoplasia of the liver. In contrast to congenital portosystemic shunts, a number of vessels are usually affected. 

What are the signs of portosystemic shunts? 

The clinical signs exhibited by dogs with portosystemic shunts reflect the failure of the liver to eliminate various toxic matter, drugs, and bacteria absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. Certain materials particularly those produced from dietary protein, are potential neurotoxins (e.g., ammonia, gamma-aminobutyric acid, natural benzodiazepines, and mercaptans), which affect the function of the central nervous system and produce a syndrome called hepatic encephalopathy. Other clinical signs arise from the liver being deprived of portal blood flow, which is essential for the normal development of the liver; as a result the liver is underdeveloped and it's metabolic, storage, and excretory functions are further impaired... 

SIGNALMENT AND HISTORY 

Dogs with congenital portosystemic shunts are typically purebred dogs less than 1 year old. The severity of clinical signs varies and is related to the anatomic position of the shunt and the fraction of portal blood that is shunted past the liver. Generally, the lower the fraction of shunting, the milder and later in onset are the clinical signs. Nevertheless, affected animals are often in poor body condition and of small body stature, especially when compared to their littermates. Owners may complain that the animals fail to thrive or grow and that skin and coat condition are poor. Other clinical signs tend to be intermittent or periodic in nature and relate to the central nervous system, gastrointestinal tract, and urinary tract. There may also be a history of an adverse response to sedation or anesthesia. 

A significant number of dogs (up to 25% of cases of portosystemic shunts) may develop signs later in life; this may be due to an acquired rather than congenital shunt or because the animal can no longer compensate for a low grade congenital shunt. dogs with acquired shunts have signs similar to those with congenital disease, although the previous history may have been uneventful until the appearance of weight loss and associated clinical signs. 

CLINICAL SIGNS 

Central nervous system signs are the most common, occurring in over three-quarters of all cases, and may be vague and subtle such as anorexia, depression, and lethargy .(Table 1). More specific signs include episodes of hyperactivity, head pressing and circling, disorientation, temporary blindness, weakness, excess salivation, seizures, and occasionally coma. These signs tend to wax and wane, and their onset may be connected with the recent ingestion of a protein-rich meal that resulted in increased production of neurotoxins within the large intestine. 

Gastrointestinal signs 

Vomiting and/or diarrhea are present in about two-thirds of cases. Evidence of lower urinary tract disease is present in approximately one-half of cases and is usually due to ammonium urate crystals, which are formed because of excessive excretion of ammonia and uric acid in urine. Some dogs, particularly those that develop signs later in life, have polydipsia and polyuria (excessive drinking and urination). Other less common signs of portosystemic shunting include recurrent fevers and ascites, although the latter is generally seen only in dogs with acquired shunts. 

urate crystals, which are formed because of excessive excretion of ammonia and uric acid in urine. Some dogs, particularly those that develop signs later in life, have polydipsia and polyuria (excessive drinking and urination). Other less common signs of portosystemic shunting include recurrent fevers and ascites, although the latter is generally seen only in dogs with acquired shunts. 

DIAGNOSIS 

Although signalment and clinical signs may strongly suggest the presence of a portosystemic shunt, a series of investigative steps (Table 2) must be taken to: 

Confirm the diagnosis 
Identify the anatomic location and severity of the shunt 
Indicate whether the shunt is congenital or acquired.
The latter two criteria are important when considering whether the shunt is amenable to surgical correction and the likely outcome of such surgery. 
Blood chemistry and hematology panels usually show characteristic patterns of mild abnormalities that as a group suggest the presence of a portosystemic shunt. These include mildly elevated liver enzymes, low blood urea nitrogen and total plasma protein concentrations, hypogly- cemia (low blood sugar) and low serum cholesterol. Mild, nonregenerative anemia and microcytosis (undersized red blood cells) may also be present in all cases. Blood ammonia concentrations may also be increased, but samples must be rapidly analyzed soon after collection to detect such an increase. Urinalysis may reveal a low specific gravity and the presence of ammonium blurate crystals. Serum bile acid concentrations taken either after an overnight fast or 2 hours after a meal are usually confirmatory. 

The next step is to identify whether the shunt is intrahepatic, extrahepatic, or microvascular. This generally requires specialized imaging techniques, and it is likely that dogs may need to be referred to appropriate specialists. Survey radiographs of the type normally taken in veterinary practices simply indicate the presence of a small liver (Figure 2). 

Ultrasonography is a useful, noninvasive tool for the detection of portosystemic shunts. Intrahepatic shunts are easily visualized: the liver usually appears small in size, there is reduced visibility of intrahepatic portal vessels, and an anomalous blood vessel may be obvious (Figure 3). 

In dogs with extrahepatic shunts the first two features are usually present, but the detection of the anomalous vessel is not so easy. Application of Doppler ultrasound, an advanced technique, may help in such cases, especially where there is a small extrahepatic shunt. 

Contrast radiography, whereby a marker dye is injected into a vein draining the intestine and radiographs are taken immediately, allows ready visualization of the portal vein and shunting. This procedure is usually performed in combination with surgical correction (so that the dog has to be anesthetized only once) and is often referred to as operative mesenteric portography. A loop of small intestine is exteriorized (brought outside of the body) and a tube is placed in a jejunal vein. A water-soluble radiopaque dye is injected via the tube, and lateral and ventrodorsal radiographs are then taken. Where there is a shunt, the abnormal vessel is outlined as blood is diverted into the systemic circulation without appearing in the liver (Figure 4). 

Portal or transcolonic scintigraphy is an advanced technique whereby the uptake of radiochemicals from the intestinal tract is monitored. A radiochemical, usually technetium 99m pertechnetate, is administered via the rectum and first accumulates in the liver in normal animals. In dogs with portosystemic shunts the distribution of activity is altered as the radiochemical bypasses the liver and reaches the heart first. Although this does not identify the location of the shunt, it does provide an extremely accurate estimate of the degree of shunting, allowing the clinician to predict the likely success of management options and to follow up the success of surgical management. 

Liver biopsy is indicated when there is no obvious shunt or if multiple extrahepatic shunts are identified (as seen in acquired portosystemic shunting). This may reveal hepatocyte atrophy, with small or absent portal vessels, and will allow histopathologic confirmation of micro- vascular disease. 

MANAGEMENT 

There are two broad management options: surgical ligation of shunts or medical management of the effects of shunting. The decision as to which is most appropriate needs to be made on a case-by-case basis depending on the type and location of the shunt, the age of the animal, and the severity of clinical signs. There may also be significant financial considerations on the part of the owner. Surgery wherever feasible, is generally believed to be the treatment of choice as it suggests the promise of normal liver function. Improvements in dietary and medical manage- ment of hepatic encephalopathy, however, mean that conservative treatments offer a reasonable prognosis for dogs that are not suitable for surgery (Table 3). 

SURGICAL MANAGEMENT 

Ligation of shunt vessels is an advanced surgical technique requiring a suitably experienced surgeon, careful selection and monitoring of general anesthesia, measurement of blood pressure in the portal vein and systemic circulation, and appropriate critical care support facilities. Such requirements usually necessitate referral to specialist centers, and this is especially true with intrahepatic shunts. 

Single extrahepatic shunts are usually identified as tortuous, abnormal vessels. These are ligated close to the vena cava. A potential fatal complication is portal hypertension, which occurs when intrahepatic vessels are unable to cope with the additional volume of blood that is diverted to the liver after closure of the shunt vessel. Guarding against this requires careful monitoring of portal and systemic blood pressures and inspection of the intestines and pancreas for signs of cyanosis. Failure to alleviate the hypertension and pain, bloody diarrhea, and shock leading to death in 2 to 24 hours after surgery. 

A 60% to 80% degree of ligation can usually be achieved without complications and is associated with an increase in the amount of portal blood that enters the liver and with improvements in the patient's clinical status. In some cases, the ligation procedure may be repeated on one or more later dates to progressively attain complete ligation. This un- fortunately necessitates additional costs and, with successive surgeries, increases the risk of perioperative, complications. On the other hand, repeat surgery may not be necessary as some partially ligated shunts appear to spontaneously occlude. The prognosis for dogs with partial ligation is guarded because approximately 50% show recurrence of clinical signs at an average of 3 to 4 years after surgery. Ligation of intrahepatic shunts is technically more difficult and is associated with higher risks of fatal complications. Such cases may be best managed conservatively. 

MEDICAL AND DIETARY MANAGEMENT 

With better understanding of the pathophysiology of hepatic encephalopathy, it has become possible to prescribe specific therapies that provide a reasonable prognosis for those dogs with portosystemic shunts that are not corrected surgically. The primary objective of medical management is to eliminate the clinical signs associated with hepatic encephalopathy. Other goals include minimizing lower urinary tract disease and reducing the metabolic load on the liver. The chief components of medical management strategies are dietary modifications and oral antibiotics. 

Medical management is indicated for all dogs with acquired shunts and all dogs with microvascular shunts. It should also be used for a period in those dogs that are about to undergo surgical ligation. This will allow the veterinarian and owner to establish the extent to which the condition can be managed medically, in case it is not possible to completely ligate the shunt at surgery. medical management is also indicated in those dogs whose owners are unable to afford the cost of referral to a specialist surgical facility or whose owners are unwilling to accept the significant risk of perioperative mortality. All dogs undergoing surgical ligation should continue to receive medical therapy for 2 to 4 weeks post- operatively. Finally, some degree of medical therapy may be required in dogs with partially ligated shunts. 

Dietary manipulations for the control of hepatic encephalopathy are designed to limit neurotoxin production, which occurs principally in the large intestine, and to reduce the subsequent absorption of these toxins into the portal vein (Table 4). The major toxins are all derived from nitrogenous materials (protein and urea) and are synthesized by bacteria found within the large intestine. The production of these toxins is reduced by limiting the amount of protein fed and ensuring that the dietary protein is high quality and very digestible. These steps reduce the amount of protein that reaches the large intestine; further reductions can be attained by feeding smaller meals more frequently to maximize the digestive capacity of the small intestine. 

Specific diets with restricted protein contents are available from veterinarians. These are ideal because they provide a balanced protein-calorie intake, which is important for the stable control of hepatic encephalopathy. Including dietary fiber in the daily ration assists in acidifying the colonic environment and limiting toxin production and also acts as a mild laxative to increase the elimination of toxic factors in feces. Lactulose, a soluble fiber, is often used as a supplement for this purpose and can be readily purchased from pharmacists. Supplementation with zinc salts also im-proves the detoxification of ammonia and the control of hepatic encephalopathy. A veterinary diet specifically designed and tested for the management of liver disease and portosystemic shunts is available in Europe; it is unique in combining a restricted protein content with increased zinc and added dietary fiber. Available in America as Waltham Veterinary Diets Canine Low and Medium Protein, dry and canned. 

Antibiotics are used in most cases to reduce the bacteria within the large intestine that are responsible for the production of neurotoxins. Orally administered neomycin is commonly used for this purpose and is often used in combination with lactulose in both the short and long-term medical management of portosystemic shunts. 

SUMMARY 

Portosystemic shunts are serious conditions in dogs and require significant efforts to diagnose and treat. Specialized surgical techniques, in association with advances in medical and dietary management, allow the condition to be effectively managed and provide a reasonable quality of life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> Has anyone else had any experience with Portosystemic Shunt?


personally, no - friends' dog, yes.

usually there's a surgical option - but his liver enzymes & bloodwork should have shown a shunt, i'd think.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Thankyou Sled dog for all that info on portosystemic shunt. We got the test result back today. He hasnt got portosystemic shunt. Obviously with all the results so far they are pretty sure its a neurological problem caused by some sort of central nervous system failure. They cant do anymore testing or treatment at the PDSA, and our local vets dont have the technology either. The advice they have given us is that if we want to continue with tests we would have to see a private specialist.

Its put us in a very difficult situation as I dont think we would be able to afford a specialist and tests such as MRI scans and CT scans...Not sure where to go from here


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hannahbee said:


> We got the test result back today. He hasnt got portosystemic shunt.
> ... they are pretty sure its a neurological problem caused by some sort of CNS failure. They cant do any more [tests]
> or treatment at the PDSA, and our local vets dont have the technology either. The advice they have given us is... to continue with tests we would have to see a private specialist.
> ...Not sure where to go from here


if he were mine, i'd be considering euthanasia. 
the age of onset & his symptoms make this very unlikely to be treatable.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> if he were mine, i'd be considering euthanasia.
> the age of onset & his symptoms make this very unlikely to be treatable.


My local vets seem to think the best option would be for him to be put to sleep as further testing would most likely lead to that anyway. Were both devastated


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Hannahbee said:


> Its put us in a very difficult situation as I dont think we would be able to afford a specialist and tests such as MRI scans and CT scans...Not sure where to go from here


My mums dog needs a MRI scan (loss of use of back legs, his 18 months) but she can't afford it and her insurance was rubbish, so for now they are treating the symptoms which seems to be working. Maybe you could try that, if not i would feel it would be time to end his suffering as it can't be nice for him 

What a terrible start to owning a dog of your own, i hope it doesn't put you off forever x


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> My mums dog needs a MRI scan (loss of use of back legs, his 18 months) but she can't afford it and her insurance was rubbish, so for now they are treating the symptoms which seems to be working. Maybe you could try that, if not i would feel it would be time to end his suffering as it can't be nice for him
> 
> What a terrible start to owning a dog of your own, i hope it doesn't put you off forever x


Our vets told us that there isnt anything that would be effective enough to ease his symptoms. As hes getting worse everyday (today hes really been suffering) its probably the kindest thing to do. Were going to try and give him a lovely last few days.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm so so sorry to hear this.

Well done and big hugs to you and your partner for sticking by him and doing everything you can. Not a lot of people would.

Sleep well little boy


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

its heartbreaking.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh I'm so sorry for you all! I, like others, have been following you since your 1st posting - all wanting to help you enjoy your little one as much as possible. 
Now it seems you have to make a really difficult decision. If you do decide not to go ahead with any more tests/experimental treatments etc. you musn't feel guilty at all. 
You have both stuck with him through so much in such a short space of time and you must be commended for that.

Good luck which ever way you go - you will make great parents again in the future.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im so sorry, was really rooting for the little guy hoping something would show up that would explain things and be easily treated. I agree though, if he is continually suffering and its getting worse it would be unfair to let him carry on.
I will be thinking of you and little Charlie.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I am so sorry that you have had to experience such worry and stress both emotionally and financially so soon after owning this poor puppy. It is so unfair.  But I think that you are making the right decision. My thoughts are with you.


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> My local vets seem to think the best option would be for him to be put to sleep as further testing would most likely lead to that anyway. Were both devastated


I'm so sorry to hear that, make your last few days as special as possible.


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

JoJo74 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that, make your last few days as special as possible.


Charlie is being kept better than a King this weekend. He is having lots of walks, playtime, treats, kisses, cuddles and playing with other dogs in the park.

Thank you for all your kind words.


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## abbiechi (Jul 2, 2011)

I've been reading through this the past few days and although the decision is extremely heartbreaking I believe you're doing the right thing. He's lucky to have such wonderful owners who are making his last few days the best of his life.

Please don't ever let this put you off owning another dog in the future.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Humped One said:


> Charlie is being kept better than a King this weekend. He is having lots of walks, playtime, treats, kisses, cuddles and playing with other dogs in the park.
> 
> Thank you for all your kind words.


Hope you have a really lovely weekend with him.


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## Belladee (Jul 6, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> Thankyou everyone for your great advice. It will be a big help. We gave him a kong today and it was brilliant. I will have a look for crates.
> 
> With regards to his house training he used the paper box today for the first time so things are looking good.
> 
> ...


I have a 11 week old BC and he tries to chew his back legs and chases his tail then looks as though to say yup that hurts. He wont hurt himself too much, enjoy your collie they are wonderful friends to have.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Belladee said:


> I have a 11 week old BC and he tries to chew his back legs and chases his tail then looks as though to say yup that hurts. He wont hurt himself too much, enjoy your collie they are wonderful friends to have.


Not sure if it's breed specific, but the only time I've known dogs to chase their tail and bite their back legs is through boredom.

How are you enjoying your weekend with him? Is the day tomorrow for him?

Can't imagine how you're feeling at this minute.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> How are you enjoying your weekend with him? Is the day tomorrow for him?
> 
> Can't imagine how you're feeling at this minute.


Were having a lovely weekend with him. He's getting showered with treats and all his favourite things. It is very hard to look at him knowing that we have to say goodbye, but were trying to stay as happy as we can for his last days so he doesn't pick up on how devestated we both are.

We have to talk to the vets again but it should be tomorrow


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Can you upload some pics of him so we can see? 

*hugs*


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Not sure if it's breed specific, but the only time I've known dogs to chase their tail and bite their back legs is through boredom.
> 
> How are you enjoying your weekend with him? Is the day tomorrow for him?
> 
> Can't imagine how you're feeling at this minute.


Yes I'v heard this too from various sources. Not breed related though.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Can you upload some pics of him so we can see?
> 
> *hugs*


Yes I think we have all fallen in love with him! You are so strong! I can't imaging what you're going through. x


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Can you upload some pics of him so we can see?
> 
> *hugs*


Here we go. I have no idea how to upload more than one.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

All i can say is big (((hugs))) i'm soo sorry for all of you :crying:


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

I try to find right words but I can't.
Not every battle we can win...
So sorry...


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/humped-one-albums-little-king-charlie.html

Hopefully that will direct anyone wanting to look to my photo album of the little man.

Tomorrow is the day for him to be put to sleep, so we are enjoying one last day with him.

Thankyou again for all your messages and kind words, it is apreciated greatly.


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

This situation is heartbreaking - I'm so sorry for the three of you, how unfair life can be. I think there are many people like me sharing our tears with you now.

Well done for helping Charlie through all of this and doing all you could for him, I hope you can remember him with joy when the grief is less immediate, and I do hope you can love another puppy when the time is right.

Have a beautiful day with him today, he really is lucky to have found you and shared his short life with you x


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Our little Charlies at peace now. Thankyou everyone for your advice and support throughout his time with us. He was such a beautiful addition to our life. I had no idea you could ever love and bond with an animal so much till he came along.

You all made things a little easier through the difficult times, so thanks again

X


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## Ruffinn (Aug 2, 2011)

.................


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I am so so sorry, May your spirit run forever free Charlie, Life is so unfair sometimes, so sorry that the cause of your problems just couldnt be found.
Im so gutted too, so can imagine how you both feel, thinking of you both.


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

I'm so sorry it had to turn out this way. RIP Charlie.


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## Belladee (Jul 6, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Not sure if it's breed specific, but the only time I've known dogs to chase their tail and bite their back legs is through boredom.
> 
> How are you enjoying your weekend with him? Is the day tomorrow for him?
> 
> Can't imagine how you're feeling at this minute.


He is far from bored he just likes to show us that he is able to bite his own bits as he has stopped mouthing us


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I haven't read this thread for a while and I can't believe that its ended like this 

RIP Charlie


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hannahbee said:


> Our little Charlies at peace now. Thankyou everyone for your advice and support throughout his time with us. He was such a beautiful addition to our life. I had no idea you could ever love and bond with an animal so much till he came along.
> 
> You all made things a little easier through the difficult times, so thanks again
> 
> X


Hello there,
I'm not sure if you are still checking your mail.
I have just got back from my hols and have missed my little man so much. I have been following your posts since your 1st one. I can only imagine how you must both be feeling. Your photos are lovely, you will cherish them forever. RIP Charlie.
You will be stronger because of what you have both been through... so sorry for you all.

Rita KD


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## 912142 (Mar 28, 2011)

Your initial questions appear to have been answered, however, I would say that a 10 week old pup should only be walked for no more than 15 mins per day! That's 5 mins for every month.


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## Hannahbee (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks everyone. Ive now started a new thread here http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/184765-thankyou-everyone-now-let-me-introduce.html#post1061337881


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## Humped One (Jul 15, 2011)

I did a painting in memory of the little guy, thought Id show you all


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Humped One said:


> I did a painting in memory of the little guy, thought Id show you all


Its a fantastic painting and so like the pictures of him. He was such a dear little pup, it did make me tear up actually. A lovely tribute to him.


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## karl2999 (Aug 21, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Perhaps he is bored and frustrated and occupying himself when he bites at his legs? Maybe provide loads of short sessions of mental stimulation?


I agree with you,sometime,when the dog feel bored____he will do things unexpectedly


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## catherinedavid2011 (Aug 21, 2011)

As an owner of a 4 year old Border Collie who came from a working farm and had never lived inside before I completely sympatise with your situation. Collies do learn very quick and with a lot of hard work it certainly pays off. This is what we did:
1) Toilet Training we used training mats and although he didnt understand what they were for at first if you can get the scent of his no.1's on there (i know its gross but it does work) then he can follow the scent. And as he used to have quite a few accidents in the house we adopted the routine of putting him outside the second he had an accident and also a couple of times 'mid accident' and that definately worked and I can honestly say since then hes never had an accident in the house, they are smarter than you think but just need boundaries set 
2) Chewing oh that was fun (not!) we went through him biting our hands to chewing table and chair legs and pretty much everything else. We used anti chew spray which is just lemon on the table and chair legs which worked because he runs a mile and the first whiff of that, we moved everything out of reach e.g. shoes, pens (a favourite of his) so that the temptation wasnt there and when he tried biting our hands (puppy teeth are soo sharp) we actually yelped like a dog nice and loud to startle them, and again never tried biting since.
3) Seperation Anxiety definately the hardest thing, I distinctly remember as we lived in a cottage we left him for five minutes and sat on the floor outside then went back in and praised him, then extended it for ten minutes then fifteen etc just start off short then try longer periods of time. Mine always bark and cry when we leave because I think they think they're going out for a walk but always stop within about 5-10 mins.
Hope this helps x


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