# Crufts 2009 without BBC



## dexter

Crufts 2009 Goes On Without the BBC - The Kennel Club


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## bullbreeds

How sad.

Very unreasonable for the BBC to start dishing out ultimatums 

I didnt intend going next year and was relying on t.v coverage 

Hope another channel steps in.


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## Guest

I would imagine another channel will step in and cover it.


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## JANICE199

*Does anyone know which dogs the bbc wanted excluded, and why?*


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## pommum

I would say it would be the breeds that were featured in that terrible program, boxers, cavies etc... if they took cavies away form a show that would a big loss to the shows as at Crufts alone they make an entry number of around 200+ which would be alot of people who would be very annoyed and upset.

I think Horse & Country Channel have got first dibs on taking over coverage of Crufts tbh, as they did the coverage for Discover Dogs and we asked them then and they said hopefully they will get the coverage. 

take care
Sarah


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## Guest

I find it appalling to single out breeds,good breeders are working to eliminate certain conditions from breeds.
All breeds suffer from problems so it's totally unfair to discriminate.


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## Jen26

i love watching crufts, what a shame


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## garydogz

JANICE199 said:


> *Does anyone know which dogs the bbc wanted excluded, and why?*


Basset hound
Clumber spaniel
Dogue de Bordeaux
Mastiff
Neopolitan mastiff
Pekingese
Rottweiler
Shar pei
St Bernard
Chow chow
German shepherd
Bulldog
Rhodesian ridgeback
Cavalier spaniel

These are the disputed breeds


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## Guest

garydogz said:


> Basset hound
> Clumber spaniel
> Dogue de Bordeaux
> Mastiff
> Neopolitan mastiff
> Pekingese
> Rottweiler
> Shar pei
> St Bernard
> Chow chow
> German shepherd
> Bulldog
> Rhodesian ridgeback
> Cavalier spaniel
> 
> These are the disputed breeds


Where did you find that info ?


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## JANICE199

garydogz said:


> Basset hound
> Clumber spaniel
> Dogue de Bordeaux
> Mastiff
> Neopolitan mastiff
> Pekingese
> Rottweiler
> Shar pei
> St Bernard
> Chow chow
> German shepherd
> Bulldog
> Rhodesian ridgeback
> Cavalier spaniel
> 
> These are the disputed breeds


*Thanks for that Gary, am i right in thinking these are the breeds highlighted in the BBC documentry? If so is it a bad thing that the BBC have pulled *out?


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## garydogz

sallyanne said:


> Where did you find that info ?


On the BBC website along with some other stuff and clips


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## garydogz

JANICE199 said:


> *Thanks for that Gary, am i right in thinking these are the breeds highlighted in the BBC documentry? If so is it a bad thing that the BBC have pulled *out?


They really had no choice in my opinion. You cannot brand it as immoral in one programme and then be seen to support, even promote, it by covering the flagship show in another.
A good thing IMO.


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## JANICE199

garydogz said:


> They really had no choice in my opinion. You cannot brand it as immoral in one programme and then be seen to support, even promote, it by covering the flagship show in another.
> A good thing IMO.


*I'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks that...*


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## Guest

garydogz said:


> They really had no choice in my opinion. You cannot brand it as immoral in one programme and then be seen to support, even promote, it by covering the flagship show in another.
> A good thing IMO.


I don't really see how the BBC can hold moral high ground in all honesty,look at the Brand / Ross Fiasco.
Not all the breeds listed were shown in that programme,nor is the Boxer on it Why ?
Didn't the coverage show that breed fitting ?

I don't think it will be missed there coverage wasn't great anyway,it will be covered though by another channel


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## garydogz

sallyanne said:


> I don't really see how the BBC can hold moral high ground in all honesty,look at the Brand / Ross Fiasco.
> Not all the breeds listed were shown in that programme,nor is the Boxer on it Why ?
> Didn't the coverage show that breed fitting ?
> 
> I don't think it will be missed there coverage wasn't great anyway,it will be covered though by another channel


The list does have some surprises. Both for those that are on it and those that are not. I suppose that there is more that we did not get to see when the programme was edited to fit the time slot.

Maybe they can get Brand/Ross to front it. Sort of new channel. Discredited TV:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Guest

garydogz said:


> The list does have some surprises. Both for those that are on it and those that are not. I suppose that there is more that we did not get to see when the programme was edited to fit the time slot.
> 
> Maybe they can get Brand/Ross to front it. Sort of new channel. Discredited TV:laugh::laugh::laugh:


I am suprized by a few breeds on there one been the rotti,wonder why that breed is "at risk".Of course the programme wanted to shock the GP,so perhaps the footage of other breeds didn't have the same impact.


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## musical

A shame they are not still showing it


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## fosse

Good news for Crufts and the dog world. Well done the Kennel Club for refusing to buckle to the BBC's demands, omitting certain breeds from Crufts would benefit no one.

A rather odd list of disputed breeds, many on the list not mentioned in PDE and some that were on PDE omitted, just goes to show the true value of the PDE programme in that it didn't report facts and was just sensationalism. 

I'm stumped about Rottweilers being on the list, anyone any idea why they are disputed?

Based on the coverage of Discover Dogs, Horse & Country TV will provide much better coverage than the BBC.


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## Maisie

we like watching the dogs - sad


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## Guest

fosse said:


> Good news for Crufts and the dog world. Well done the Kennel Club for refusing to buckle to the BBC's demands, omitting certain breeds from Crufts would benefit no one.
> 
> A rather odd list of disputed breeds, many on the list not mentioned in PDE and some that were on PDE omitted, just goes to show the true value of the PDE programme in that it didn't report facts and was just sensationalism.
> 
> I'm stumped about Rottweilers being on the list, anyone any idea why they are disputed?
> 
> Based on the coverage of Discover Dogs, Horse & Country TV will provide much better coverage than the BBC.


Totally agree,the BBC can't go back can they,they made this programme,showed it to shock,they can't very well televise crufts now without criticism can they?

I was also wondering why the Rotti was on there,some members on another forum are actually wondering if it has anything to do with the breeds reputation of late.One has emailed the BBC to find out,because health wise there doing ok.

I was also gald to see the KC standing it's ground ,what right do the BBC have to say exhibitors and breeders can't show after they have spent alot of time, effort and money qualifying.


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## fosse

I did think that myself, perhaps they have just chucked the Rottweiler in there to raise the profile of the issue, anything to do with Rottweilers is bound to bring more interest to the story.


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## Guest

where can i find the list? i clicked on the link but couldnt see it, am i being blonde? lol


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## fosse

You must be being blonde! 

Someone has posted it on this thread.


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## Guest

silly me just read it! i am quite supprised at some of the breeds on there!


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## roger4000

i watched this also, nice program.

maybe some other network will cover it


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## StolenkissGerbils

Perhaps it might be an idea to stream it on Youtube.

BBC coverage was terrible - only one year I can remember it being ok and that was the year Richard Hammond presented it. I think...

Normally it was like some naff Blue Peter or Animal Park episode. That idiot Ben Fogle hardly helped lol


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## Percysdad

Hopefully another network will bid to take over? I hope so as my wife really enjoys watching it


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## Rach

Ohh no more Ben Fogle...that can only be a good thing :thumbup1:

Pfft is what I say to there demands, good on you KC !!


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## StolenkissGerbils

Rach said:


> Ohh no more Ben Fogle...that can only be a good thing :thumbup1:
> 
> Pfft is what I say to there demands, good on you KC !!


He's the most irritating, insufferable, stuffy, false, pseudo-Prince-William idiot isn't he? lol  I for one can't watch anything with him in it - I might well have missed some interesting programmes just because I can't stand him.


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## Guest

Well it seems the BBC are contracted till 2010 and even if the programme isn't aired they still have to pay the KC,seems they have shot themselves in the foot again.
Don't they just love wasting money eh ? Your Money! So our licensing fee is going towards paying the KC.

Oh, and the rotti was on the list by accident what a bunch of incapable morons!
And that programme PDE is to be believed - Please!


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## Rach

StolenkissGerbils said:


> He's the most irritating, insufferable, stuffy, false, pseudo-Prince-William idiot isn't he? lol  I for one can't watch anything with him in it - I might well have missed some interesting programmes just because I can't stand him.


LOL I totally agree, he drives me up the wall !!
I hear he is poorly, which I am very sorry about, but am still very grateful we don't have to suffer him hosting Crufts


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## StolenkissGerbils

Oh, I didn't know he was ill  is it bad? I don't like his presenting but I don't wish illness on him or anything.


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## Rach

He has Leishmaniasis so I have heard (Not that I know what it is !)


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## Fleur

Rach said:


> He has Leishmaniasis so I have heard (Not that I know what it is !)


He picked up a flesh eating parasite on one of his adventures, he's finished treatment now and is on his way to either the south or north pole 

I don't see how BBC could continue with Crufts, but I think it's a shame a lot of people don't have sky so if it goes to Horse & Country TV lots of us will miss out


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## clueless

WooHoo I am pleased the BBC are out. No more TV crew with cameras and cables to divert around, no more BIS getting held back to go around their programme times.
Wonder what Celebs will be there this year as well LOL Not a lot imo, not gettin on TV petting the dogs for the cameras LOL. 
Best thing the KC has done IMO Not givin in to Bullyboy tactics. Show people spend money all year qualifying their dogs for Crufts. The ones on the list that the BBC did not want shown on TV. What were they going to do if one of those went to BIS?? Have a censored sign covering it LOL Would look good at end of a lead :001_tt2:


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## pommum

clueless said:


> WooHoo I am pleased the BBC are out. No more TV crew with cameras and cables to divert around, no more BIS getting held back to go around their programme times.
> Wonder what Celebs will be there this year as well LOL Not a lot imo, not gettin on TV petting the dogs for the cameras LOL.
> Best thing the KC has done IMO Not givin in to Bullyboy tactics. Show people spend money all year qualifying their dogs for Crufts. The ones on the list that the BBC did not want shown on TV. What were they going to do if one of those went to BIS?? Have a censored sign covering it LOL Would look good at end of a lead :001_tt2:


I totally agree with you. I can just picture it now, the line up for BIS Crufts to be one of each group from that list, then the BBC would spit there dummies out LOL.
I personally think that if Horse & Country channel get the contract they may well sell it to one of the bigger channels like ITV or Channel 4, as the viewing numbers are to big for them to manage tbh. Lets just hope my idea is right as it would be terrible to loose it from normal tv.

take care
Sarah


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## Sgurr

I think the KC are right to stand their ground and presumably there was nothing in the original contract to allow the BBC to veto which dog breeds are at Crufts.
If the BBC have to pay the KC but will not air the coverage, probably they can stop another channel getting the rights for 2009.

Sgurr


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## lauren001

The Times says:-
BBC scraps coverage of Crufts over breeding standards fears - Times Online

"The broadcaster demanded that 12 breeds linked to inherited genetic disease be dropped from the show as a condition for nightly coverage of the four-day event. After advice from a panel of experts, the BBC wished to bar from the screen the Clumber spaniel, basset hound, bloodhound, dogue de Bordeaux, mastiff, Neapolitan mastiff, Pekingese, shar-pei, chow chow, German shepherd, bulldog, St Bernard, Cavalier King Charles spaniel and Rhodesian ridgeback. "

I don't know who the experts were whether they were vets or RSPCA or other doggy breed/rescue societies, or perhaps PR experts I am not sure.


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## clueless

Mmmm PR probably LOL No Pugs or Boxers mentioned--strange as there was a lot said about them on a certain programme. Would have thought they would not have wanted to see boxers fitting in the ring as according to that programme that started it all Boxers are being bred with Epilepsy


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## clueless

David Cavill has written a great letter to the Gaurdian. Hope he gets a reply

Dear Sir,

As the publisher of the UKs oldest specialist canine publication, Our Dogs, and Studies Coordinator of the leading pet welfare educational organisation, the Animal Care College, I hope I can make a contribution to the debate concerning your article reporting on the decision of the Kennel Club not to cooperate with the BBC following the broadcasters request that some breeds should be withdrawn from competition at Crufts on the grounds that they are at risk.
The BBC appear to be taking this stance on evidence provided in the misleading and distorted programme they broadcast last August, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. A small cabal of vets and charities colluded with the programme maker, Jemima Harrison, to make outrageous claims about the Kennel Club, pedigree dogs and dog breeders using techniques of which Goebbles himself would have been proud. The rest of the media, understandably but erroneously, did not see fit to question the selective statistics, slanted video clips and carefully edited interviews - why let the facts get in the way of a good story - and the result has been an entirely unnecessary furore leading to the present impasse.

When this programme was aired I made a series of short talks for You Tube and placed the tests on my web log (YouTube - davidcavill's Channel and DavidCavill's Weblog), to try and lay out sensible and realistic approaches to the fundamental questions the programme posed - for there were important kernels of truth among the dross. The original talk has had almost 8,000 viewings and, overwhelmingly, the comments made support and reflect the views I expressed.

However, we have to start from here. The fuss has brought the world of dogs and dog ownership (and the Kennel Club too) to a Rubicon which, if crossed, could lead to a complete and damaging reassessment of the role of dogs in society. It could effect not only the lives of the many millions of families and enthusiasts who enjoy the peerless companionship that dogs offer, but those who are actively involved in working with dogs professionally,from veterinary surgeons to groomers, those who are disabled who rely on dogs as working partners as well as the thousands of service military, police and security dogs and their handlers.

I accept that a small proportion of breeds suffer from genetic defects and that these are often the result of selective breeding, but your readers should be reassured that the vast majority of pedigree dogs in the UK are fit and healthy. What is more, despite the programmes assertions, the Kennel Club in Britain in association with the Animal Health Trust and others, is aware of those problems, has been working towards solving them for many years and has made more progress in eliminating a wider range of hereditary defects in dogs than any other country. As an International judge of dogs dedicated to soundness both in my judging and in my educational role, I can confirm that the quality of pedigree dogs in the UK is, overall, higher than anywhere else the world.

What should the Kennel Club do?

Crufts, which is not just about pedigree dogs or show dogs, is a reflection of the relationship millions of people have with their pets and, like Ascot, Henley and Wimbledon, is part of the cultural fabric of this country and recognised world wide. It must therefore absolutely deserves a place on the airwaves as a featured event rather than just another news story. It would be tragic if Sky or another broadcaster was influenced by the controversy surrounding this particular issue and was therefore not prepared to consider featuring the event. The Kennel Club must make every effort to ensure this coverage is maintained - not in its own interest but in the interests of dog owners both here and around the world, all of whom may be prevented from enjoying this spectacular and exciting occasion as a result of the BBCs unfortunate and misguided attempt (supported by well meaning but short sighted lobby groups) to take what it probably believes is the moral high ground.


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## Guest

clueless said:


> David Cavill has written a great letter to the Gaurdian. Hope he gets a reply
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> As the publisher of the UKs oldest specialist canine publication, Our Dogs, and Studies Coordinator of the leading pet welfare educational organisation, the Animal Care College, I hope I can make a contribution to the debate concerning your article reporting on the decision of the Kennel Club not to cooperate with the BBC following the broadcasters request that some breeds should be withdrawn from competition at Crufts on the grounds that they are at risk.
> The BBC appear to be taking this stance on evidence provided in the misleading and distorted programme they broadcast last August, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. A small cabal of vets and charities colluded with the programme maker, Jemima Harrison, to make outrageous claims about the Kennel Club, pedigree dogs and dog breeders using techniques of which Goebbles himself would have been proud. The rest of the media, understandably but erroneously, did not see fit to question the selective statistics, slanted video clips and carefully edited interviews - why let the facts get in the way of a good story - and the result has been an entirely unnecessary furore leading to the present impasse.
> 
> When this programme was aired I made a series of short talks for You Tube and placed the tests on my web log (YouTube - davidcavill's Channel and DavidCavills Weblog), to try and lay out sensible and realistic approaches to the fundamental questions the programme posed - for there were important kernels of truth among the dross. The original talk has had almost 8,000 viewings and, overwhelmingly, the comments made support and reflect the views I expressed.
> 
> However, we have to start from here. The fuss has brought the world of dogs and dog ownership (and the Kennel Club too) to a Rubicon which, if crossed, could lead to a complete and damaging reassessment of the role of dogs in society. It could effect not only the lives of the many millions of families and enthusiasts who enjoy the peerless companionship that dogs offer, but those who are actively involved in working with dogs professionally,from veterinary surgeons to groomers, those who are disabled who rely on dogs as working partners as well as the thousands of service military, police and security dogs and their handlers.
> 
> I accept that a small proportion of breeds suffer from genetic defects and that these are often the result of selective breeding, but your readers should be reassured that the vast majority of pedigree dogs in the UK are fit and healthy. What is more, despite the programmes assertions, the Kennel Club in Britain in association with the Animal Health Trust and others, is aware of those problems, has been working towards solving them for many years and has made more progress in eliminating a wider range of hereditary defects in dogs than any other country. As an International judge of dogs dedicated to soundness both in my judging and in my educational role, I can confirm that the quality of pedigree dogs in the UK is, overall, higher than anywhere else the world.
> 
> What should the Kennel Club do?
> 
> Crufts, which is not just about pedigree dogs or show dogs, is a reflection of the relationship millions of people have with their pets and, like Ascot, Henley and Wimbledon, is part of the cultural fabric of this country and recognised world wide. It must therefore absolutely deserves a place on the airwaves as a featured event rather than just another news story. It would be tragic if Sky or another broadcaster was influenced by the controversy surrounding this particular issue and was therefore not prepared to consider featuring the event. The Kennel Club must make every effort to ensure this coverage is maintained - not in its own interest but in the interests of dog owners both here and around the world, all of whom may be prevented from enjoying this spectacular and exciting occasion as a result of the BBCs unfortunate and misguided attempt (supported by well meaning but short sighted lobby groups) to take what it probably believes is the moral high ground.


Agree with that,
JH was on a certain forum and was asked questions regarding research etc,but declined to answer any questions,speaks volumes I think.


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## clueless

sallyanne said:


> Agree with that,
> JH was on a certain forum and was asked questions regarding research etc,but declined to answer any questions,speaks volumes I think.


I read that thread re questions, found it interesting that she did not answer a lot of scientific research questions!!!


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## JA12

Really good and balanced letter from David Cavill. More sanity needs to be poured on this controversy.

Too many people, many who know absolutely -nothing- about breeding any animal, let alone pedigree dogs, took that sensationalist programme at face value. Unfortunately, a lot of that program was slated towards ratings, rather than fact. As David Cavill stated, there was a tiny kernal of truth at the heart of the program, but the vast majority was sensationalist nonsense.

Thankyou for posting the letter.

----------------------------
Riley is doing well.  Currently 8 firsts, 2 in a championship show. 2 best in breeds...


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## Tigerneko

Rach said:


> Ohh no more Ben Fogle...that can only be a good thing :thumbup1:
> 
> Pfft is what I say to there demands, good on you KC !!


LOL I walked right into Ben Fogle last year at Crufts

i didnt say sorry

i say they get Hammond back on the job, whatever channel it might go to

in fact, they should just have him there anyway, whether it's televised or not, I love the hamster haha


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