# Greyhound racing. Let's talk about that.



## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

EDIT: I'd like to mention that this is all based off of American tracks and the little information I've researched about Australian tracks, and I have no idea how they're run or if they're run differently in other areas of the world.

For the heck of a debate I was wondering your opinion on Greyhound racing.

Personally I strongly disagree with it. If not for the hundreds of other reasons - this fundamental fact that no one can really dispute or argue

Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day. The "owners" involved in racing often have little to no contact with their dogs because they view them as investments, and they don't live in homes they live in kennels that are usually on or near the racetrack with the trainers. This is why Greyhounds often retire after injury, because the "owner" usually doesn't want to put the money in to pay for the injury, they'd rather just obtain a new racer and make profit off of them. This is also why when they retire because of injury, loss of interest in racing, or simply don't win competitions - they don't go home with the owner and spend their merry lives with a loving human who cares about them - they get dumped in rescues and shelters.

The main reason I disagree is Grey's aren't viewed as pets in the racing world - they're viewed as investments and human entertainment and not much else (until they retire and someone who likely isn't involved in the racing business adopts them)

Keep in mind these are my complete opinion (heavily based off fact unfortunately) and I'd love to hear yours. I'm personally thrilled to adopt a Grey from a non supporting rescue when I get a house of my own and can support two hounds!

EDIT: Also the issue of over breeding Greyhounds which results in many being euth'd each year BECAUSE of the fact that they don't have homes at the end of their career, which is actually placed clearly on a website that supports racing and tries to paint it in a happy light.

DID I MENTION: Greyhounds retire between 2-4 and sometimes 5 years old? And sometimes as young as 18 months old if they really miss the mark? That's a lot of young perfectly good greyhounds out there that either need homes or are being pts, and a lot of new greyhounds being bred for profit profit and more profit!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I can't think of anything positive to say about greyhound racing. :Meh


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> I can't think of anything positive to say about greyhound racing. :Meh


The absolute only positive thing I could think is that the Greyhounds themselves seem to enjoy the running. It's not even about the running I dislike though, if racing was a sport just like any other (agility, dock diving, etc) I think competition would be fun and healthy and exciting if only the owners had a heart and were there for training and helped train their dogs (at least) instead of having them live in kennels for years, and AT THE VERY LEAST took them home at the end of it  Just loved them for god's sake! They're not money making objects! I get so riled.

Not to mention what could be done about the HORRIFIC injuries and how they could be prevented (anything from broken and severed toes to crushed skulls and snapped necks/spines don't get me started)


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> The absolute only positive thing I could think is that *the Greyhounds themselves seem to enjoy the running*. It's not even about the running I dislike though, if racing was a sport just like any other (agility, dock diving, etc) I think competition would be fun and healthy and exciting if only the owners had a heart and were there for training and helped train their dogs (at least) instead of having them live in kennels for years, and AT THE VERY LEAST took them home at the end of it  Just loved them for god's sake! They're not money making objects! I get so riled.
> 
> Not to mention what could be done about the HORRIFIC injuries and how they could be prevented (anything from broken and severed toes to crushed skulls and snapped necks/spines don't get me started)


Yes, but you could say that about any animal that runs for it's job: race horses, hare coursers - what would happen if they didn't run?

Whilst people argue that hounds are bred to run and it's natural, etc. the reality is surely that they are bred to be ABLE to run in a specific way, because that is what their racing owners want?

Clearly, given the number of broken down, lame young racers, it's not actually that good for them?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> Yes, but you could say that about any animal that runs for it's job: race horses, hare coursers - what would happen if they didn't run?
> 
> Whilst people argue that hounds are bred to run and it's natural, etc. the reality is surely that they are bred to be ABLE to run in a specific way, because that is what their racing owners want?
> 
> Clearly, given the number of broken down, lame young racers, it's not actually that good for them?


Precisely, it's also the lack of prevention of injury that makes me angry. Also like to add that they're enticed to run with a furry lure which dogs with prey drive can't exactly deny - it's hardwired in their brain. I doubt they'd just run for the hell of it. Dogs who do agility aren't lured, they run through those hoops and dash over those hurdles because they like to. They aren't over worked and while there is risk of injury in any canine sport, they're far and wide compared to race injuries.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

For analogy, it's like a dog who chases a laser beam. You aren't supposed to do that because the dog can never catch the beam and they become obsessive about catching it. It messes with them and makes them compulsive. My friend has a dog who will slam her face relentlessly into walls to chase any kind of moving light beam and it's injured her countless times because they played with a laser with her when she was young and now she's OCD about it. This is what Greyhounds experience.

I'd also like to mention that while live luring is illegal in all US states, *it's still used in places of Australia (as far as I know) EDIT: I WAS INFORMED IT IS NOT! Thank goodness and thank you for clearly that up @Latekin *

in the US it's estimated that 300+ live lure animals are brought into the training track every WEEK. (I'm not sure the laws of other countries) It's AWFUL and they use anything from small pigs to jackrabbits. The pigs they use because they squeal and entice the dogs, and they're hung upside down by their feet on a structure that pulls them quickly across the practice track. Rabbits and other small creatures often have their legs broken so they'll squeal and are then drug violently through the track only to be ripped to shreds by the dogs at the end of it.

Brutal but true.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Weren't you the guy/gal who said how much they liked it here ? This might not be such a good idea. 

It seems to be declining. The number of Greyhound stadiums is decreasing. Probably what keeps it alive is the betting.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I can't stand any form of racing where money is involved...it's only the animals that suffer from the humans greed 



chickenfoot said:


> Precisely, it's also the lack of prevention of injury that makes me angry. Also like to add that they're enticed to run with a furry lure which dogs with prey drive can't exactly deny - it's hardwired in their brain. *I doubt they'd just run for the hell of it. Dogs who do agility aren't lured, they run through those hoops and dash over those hurdles because they like to.* They aren't over worked and while there is risk of injury in any canine sport, they're far and wide compared to race injuries.


I will say that the bit in bold is a bit off because you *do*/*can* teach agility by luring at the start


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> The "owners" involved in racing often have little to no contact with their dogs because they view them as investments


Don't tell Bordie (PF member) that, he adores his racing dogs



chickenfoot said:


> I doubt they'd just run for the hell of it.


But they do don't they? Many injure themselves outside of racing because of their thin skins, their build and the fact that they do run for the sheer hell of it.

However, had they not been bred to run as they do, they probably wouldn't have such an extreme body shape


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

diefenbaker said:


> Weren't you the guy/gal who said how much they liked it here ? This might not be such a good idea.
> 
> It seems to be declining. The number of Greyhound stadiums is decreasing. Probably what keeps it alive is the betting.


Ha! Yes I am the gal who said she liked it here. I like a nice mature debate and people are welcome to disagree.
Money is pretty much the only thing keeping it alive. It's only legal/active in 7 US states currently.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I can't stand any form of racing where money is involved...it's only the animals that suffer from the humans greed
> 
> I will say that the bit in bold is a bit off because you *do*/*can* teach agility by luring at the start


Thanks for the info! Didn't know that.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

rona said:


> Don't tell Bordie (PF member) that, he adores his racing dogs
> 
> But they do don't they? Many injure themselves outside of racing because of their thin skins, their build and the fact that they do run for the sheer hell of it.
> 
> However, had they not been bred to run as they do, they probably wouldn't have such an extreme body shape


Their body shape has been consistent from the time that they were used to hunt small prey, which is what they were originally used for. (Which they still are in some places but that's a whole other much more bloody matter, google "Greyhounds in spain"  )

Does Bordie keep his racing dogs and race them in tracks for betting ? I'd LOVE to hear that side because if he keeps them and loves them my faith could be restored!

OH! And injuries from racing are frequent, and wouldn't happen in day to day life.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Also the bit about their skins and build - that's a reason why they shouldn't be kept in kennels on the track and rather at home in a comfy doggy bed  I'm sure they're awfully uncomfortable in kennels all the time. They usually get out about 4 times for 30 minutes to an hour a day in rotation but still, that leaves a lot of kennel time.


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## Nicki85 (Oct 6, 2010)

I do not have a picture of the whole industry, it's not something I'd go and watch or support but I have a recent experience to share...

At agility last night one lady came with a very nervous racing greyhound. He was a beautiful dog, just under two and very nervous of people. The dog was owned by her relative who owns a number of dogs- I believe there were 150 in the kennels he came from. This greyhound was the fastest in the kennel but as he was so nervous wouldn't race well. The owner had asked the lady to take him as she lives on a farm with high fences (she has other hounds!) to try and get him more happy around other people in the hope that he'd go back to the track. I talked to her about it for a bit and asked about retired dogs/ broken dogs and she said that her relative always pays for a dog to be "fixed" where possible and will always find them a home when they retire. In a recent case a dog had broken a leg and would never race again but the owner had paid for it to be fixed and then to find it a home.

It's not all "bad" out there, some owners do care for their dogs... It may not be the perfect life that a "pet" dog has but if they are well cared for and their needs being met and also being looked after once retired, it's difficult to find a reason why it should be stopped completely.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't like greyhound racing as a commercial activity, but my grandfather used to keep racing whippets who lived in the house as pets. My granny felt sorry for them being so thin, and would sneak them doughnuts! 
I expect the dogs kept in kennels DO have soft beds (even if straw) and decent food, too. A dog kept on a hard surface and badly fed would be more likely to be stiff and less likely to run well and make money for the owner.

And


chickenfoot said:


> OH! And injuries from racing are frequent, and wouldn't happen in day to day life


but they do. A few months ago, June it was, at the agility show my club runs, two dogs collided on the exercise field and about a square foot of skin was torn off one of them; it took 3 surgeries to repair and the dog (a flat-coated retriever so not exactly thin-skinned) isn't back to full activity still. My friend Judith's dog broke her neck when chasing a deer or rabbit in woodland, also in June.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Burrowzig said:


> I don't like greyhound racing as a commercial activity, but my grandfather used to keep racing whippets who lived in the house as pets. My granny felt sorry for them being so thin, and would sneak them doughnuts!
> I expect the dogs kept in kennels DO have soft beds (even if straw) and decent food, too. A dog kept on a hard surface and badly fed would be more likely to be stiff and less likely to run well and make money for the owner.
> 
> And
> ...


I'm speaking in terms of x compared to y. I believe there are far more injuries that happen in frequencies on the track compared to agility or day to day. Of course they can happen, but I'm speaking comparatively.

Also, there was a video of this lady that was trying to explain how well taken care of the hounds in her facility were, and while they were getting basics the kennels really bothered me personally. She showed them, and while there was enough room to stand and turn, it still seemed like a sad existence.  I'll post the video below so you can have your own opinion. They got fed well and things, but being in those kennels would really bum me out


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Nicki85 said:


> I do not have a picture of the whole industry, it's not something I'd go and watch or support but I have a recent experience to share...
> 
> At agility last night one lady came with a very nervous racing greyhound. He was a beautiful dog, just under two and very nervous of people. The dog was owned by her relative who owns a number of dogs- I believe there were 150 in the kennels he came from. This greyhound was the fastest in the kennel but as he was so nervous wouldn't race well. The owner had asked the lady to take him as she lives on a farm with high fences (she has other hounds!) to try and get him more happy around other people in the hope that he'd go back to the track. I talked to her about it for a bit and asked about retired dogs/ broken dogs and she said that her relative always pays for a dog to be "fixed" where possible and will always find them a home when they retire. In a recent case a dog had broken a leg and would never race again but the owner had paid for it to be fixed and then to find it a home.
> 
> It's not all "bad" out there, some owners do care for their dogs... It may not be the perfect life that a "pet" dog has but if they are well cared for and their needs being met and also being looked after once retired, it's difficult to find a reason why it should be stopped completely.


That's really great that lady was helping so much and the owner did care, but it still bothers me that the owner won't keep the dogs and just get more dogs to race and make money on  Greyhounds are also continuously bred so that they can pick the best ones, which means the ones that don't make the cut have very uncertain fates :/


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I am totally against the racing of greyhounds I own an ex racer who was advertised for sale as a race dog. We bought hjer and retired her. She is also duel registered as we registered her wih the KC so that we could show her although that has been very limited. She was 10 years old a couple of days ago and has been with us since she was 2 years old even now she runs for the sake of running so much so that when she was younger we took her to lurcher racing were they allowed greyhounds just so she could do what she enjoyed and yes she did enjoy it she only had to see you pick up her muzzle and she would start screaming she knew the route we took to the racing and spent the entire journey bouncing about in the crate in the back of my car.

Not all owners of racing greyhounds see them as investments although theyare few and far between our butcher owns racers and is often at the kennels visiting his dogs he also takes he also takes bones and meat for them. Also when his dogs retire he does everything he can to find them good homes he had 1 particulary good looking dog who retired he offered him to me and said he would sign all the paperwork over to me so that I could register him to show. Unfortunately I had no room to take on another ex racer especially a successful one with high prey drive as I now have chihuahuas.

Many of the older PF members will remember my show greyhound William he was a big heavey built lad as show greyhounds are bred from the old coursing lines of greyhound dogs that were bred not for speed but to bring down game such as wild boar. He had never seen a lure or a race track but even he ran for the love of doing it. He was now were near the speed of Button but as soon as his lead was off he was off running up the fields.

This is a photo my husband took of William running for the fun of it.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Freyja said:


> I am totally against the racing of greyhounds I own an ex racer who was advertised for sale as a race dog. We bought hjer and retired her. She is also duel registered as we registered her wih the KC so that we could show her although that has been very limited. She was 10 years old a couple of days ago and has been with us since she was 2 years old even now she runs for the sake of running so much so that when she was younger we took her to lurcher racing were they allowed greyhounds just so she could do what she enjoyed and yes she did enjoy it she only had to see you pick up her muzzle and she would start screaming she knew the route we took to the racing and spent the entire journey bouncing about in the crate in the back of my car.
> 
> Not all owners of racing greyhounds see them as investments although theyare few and far between our butcher owns racers and is often at the kennels visiting his dogs he also takes he also takes bones and meat for them. Also when his dogs retire he does everything he can to find them good homes he had 1 particulary good looking dog who retired he offered him to me and said he would sign all the paperwork over to me so that I could register him to show. Unfortunately I had no room to take on another ex racer especially a successful one with high prey drive as I now have chihuahuas.
> 
> ...


BRILLIANT story and it's very refreshing to hear about the kind side of racing. I knew there must be SOME owners who cared, but I'm speaking of the rule, not the exception, and unfortunately I believe most racers do not put a lot of care into their dogs 

Like I said, the racing doesn't bother me and I wish there was some kind of organization without the bidding and betting and just some dogs racing because they love it, not for solely human profit  If I had a greyhound and racing was like agility or show dogs where people gathered around and watched them race and maybe there was nice little trophy for the fastest one then i'd love to enter mine but for fun! Not for investment :/

Thank you for sharing though! Lovely dog by the way


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

chickenfoot said:


> BRILLIANT story and it's very refreshing to hear about the kind side of racing. I knew there must be SOME owners who cared, but I'm speaking of the rule, not the exception, and unfortunately I believe most racers do not put a lot of care into their dogs
> 
> Like I said, the racing doesn't bother me and I wish there was some kind of organization without the bidding and betting and just some dogs racing because they love it, not for solely human profit  If I had a greyhound and racing was like agility or show dogs where people gathered around and watched them race and maybe there was nice little trophy for the fastest one then i'd love to enter mine but for fun! Not for investment :/
> 
> Thank you for sharing though! Lovely dog by the way


William was a show bred greyhound and sadly went to rainbow bridge at 6 years of age due to bloat he would be 12 in november had he still been with us.

One thing I omitted about our butchers greyhounds he never receives a penny of their winnings. Every penny they win goes back to the trainer for the care of the dogs.


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## Latekin (Jun 29, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> I'd also like to mention that while live luring is illegal in all US states, it's still used in places of Australia (as far as I know)...


Australian here! It's not legal here at all. It is in fact, terribly illegal, universally so, and there was a massive scandal about live baiting here earlier this year when it was revealed trainers were doing it in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria. People were banned, suspended, lost breeders licenses, sponsorships and face prosecution.

For the bare bones on the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_greyhound_racing_live_baiting_scandal


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Latekin said:


> Australian here! It's not legal here at all. It is in fact, terribly illegal, universally so, and there was a massive scandal about live baiting here earlier this year when it was revealed trainers were doing it in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria. People were banned, suspended, lost breeders licenses, sponsorships and face prosecution.
> 
> For the bare bones on the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_greyhound_racing_live_baiting_scandal


Ah! Good, thank you for sharing! I will add an edit of apologies to my former post. I must have misunderstood, because I did hear of the scandal (that's where i got the information) but somehow thought that it was legal in parts. Thank you so much!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have nothing against racing as long as the greyhounds are kept well. There is nothing at all wrong with a dog being kennelled if that is what it is used to. I would rather see a racing greyhound in a kennel (or a gun dog or whatever) than a rescue dog that has been used to being a pet being kept for years in a rescue kennel with limited interaction due to time constrictions.

There are some awful horror stories about racing greyhounds but I would imagine that most are kept in the lap in the luxury with caring kennel staff. After all they will hardly win if they are not content. Probably just as many pet dogs living in atrocious conditions as there are racing greyhounds.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

A


chickenfoot said:


> Ah! Good, thank you for sharing! I will add an edit of apologies to my former post. I must have misunderstood, because I did hear of the scandal (that's where i got the information) but somehow thought that it was legal in parts. Thank you so much!


This is a big problem isnt it. Someone hears about a prosecution and immediately assumes it is the norm. Maybe we should not have pet dogs , after all there are frequent prosecutions for incredible cruelty.

By the way, a working dog is a working dog not a pet. A lot of sheepdogs are chained up or kennelled, often laid in their own filth, until they are needed to work the sheep. Gundogs are often kennelled. Guide dogs spend their first year as much loved pets and their second year in kennels being trained. I have known obedience competitors whose dogs are purely for work and are kennelled apart from when they are exercised, trained and taken to shows. Nothing wrong with kennels if it suits the dogs and its lifestyle.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I have nothing against racing as long as the greyhounds are kept well. There is nothing at all wrong with a dog being kennelled if that is what it is used to. I would rather see a racing greyhound in a kennel (or a gun dog or whatever) than a rescue dog that has been used to being a pet being kept for years in a rescue kennel with limited interaction due to time constrictions.
> 
> There are some awful horror stories about racing greyhounds but I would imagine that most are kept in the lap in the luxury with caring kennel staff. After all they will hardly win if they are not content. Probably just as many pet dogs living in atrocious conditions as there are racing greyhounds.


While I personally disagree with being kept in kennels for years of their life - my problem is also with over breeding and homeless greyhounds that are dumped in shelters when they retire, not just with how they're kept while racing.

This is the Greyhound Racing Association of America's website that tries to paint it all in a nice light, but what disturbs me is number 8 where it blatantly admits the following

"Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."

They say after that, that they're working on reducing breeding until all greyhounds are 100% adoptable, but this is a very unrealistic goal for dogs being continuously bred, as well as their lack of actual statistics to show for what they're promising.

The next number also makes huge and wild assumptions and clumps all animals rights activists into the same group by saying the following:

"Even if every greyhound were adopted after retirement, the animal rights movement would still oppose greyhound racing, because they oppose all animal use, no matter how humane or beneficial to society."

Hello here I am an animal rights activist that would love greyhound racing if only the owners were dedicated the THEIR DOGS and didn't toss them in shelters with uncertain fates. I feel I'm not the only one.

These kind of statements make me wary of them and their purpose or goal :/

Website for those who want to form their own opinions : http://www.gra-america.org/media_kit/press/mediakit.html


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## Latekin (Jun 29, 2015)

Blitz said:


> This is a big problem isnt it. Someone hears about a prosecution and immediately assumes it is the norm. Maybe we should not have pet dogs , after all there are frequent prosecutions for incredible cruelty.


Except for the fact it's not exactly unreasonable for chickenfoot to assume so in this case, in terms of animal rights welfare, Australia can be an incredibly ass-backwards place to live.

Even with the fact it's incredibly illegal to use live baiting - some of the country's top trainers were caught doing it and forcibly suspended pending further investigation.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Blitz said:


> A
> 
> This is a big problem isnt it. Someone hears about a prosecution and immediately assumes it is the norm. Maybe we should not have pet dogs , after all there are frequent prosecutions for incredible cruelty.
> 
> By the way, a working dog is a working dog not a pet. A lot of sheepdogs are chained up or kennelled, often laid in their own filth, until they are needed to work the sheep. Gundogs are often kennelled. Guide dogs spend their first year as much loved pets and their second year in kennels being trained. I have known obedience competitors whose dogs are purely for work and are kennelled apart from when they are exercised, trained and taken to shows. Nothing wrong with kennels if it suits the dogs and its lifestyle.


And I obviously wouldn't agree with those things, but this thread is about racing isn't it?
I also apologized for my mistake and edited my post to clearly and boldly state that I was wrong and Australians are right so there's not much else I can do eh? We're all learning and growing.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Latekin said:


> Except for the fact it's not exactly unreasonable for chickenfoot to assume so in this case, in terms of animal rights welfare, Australia can be an incredibly ass-backwards place to live.
> 
> Even with the fact it's incredibly illegal to use live baiting - some of the country's top trainers were caught doing it and forcibly suspended pending further investigation.


I am deeply sorry for being the American that pointed assumptions at Australia and I am very wrong for doing so. I giggled at the bit about Australia being ass-backwards but I do want to visit! Not like I was saying I dislike Australia, just thought the racing business was questionable but obviously even if what I said was true I wouldn't think all Australians did that - that would be flat ignorant!


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## Latekin (Jun 29, 2015)

No big deal man, like I said, it's not an unreasonable assumption - although illegal, some of our top trainers were caught doing it. Wasn't bashing you for what you said, this is a weird country and half the time your assumptions are probably correct. We have spiders bigger than your head for goodness sake, if you'd posted that a friend of a friend said their second cousin twice removed got carried away and eaten by one I'd probably believe you. XD


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Latekin said:


> No big deal man, like I said, it's not an unreasonable assumption - although illegal, some of our top trainers were caught doing it. Wasn't bashing you for what you said, this is a weird country and half the time your assumptions are probably correct. We have spiders bigger than your head for goodness sake, if you'd posted that a friend of a friend said their second cousin twice removed got carried away and eaten by one I'd probably believe you. XD


Hahaha! Jesus! Thank you for being so nice about it  And yes i have heard about the giant man eating spiders


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't like the commercialisation and the lack of care that some greyhounds get. But most love doing it and there are trainers that put a lot of care into their dogs.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

chickenfoot said:


> EDIT: I'd like to mention that this is all based off of American tracks and the little information I've researched about Australian tracks, and I have no idea how they're run or if they're run differently in other areas of the world.
> 
> For the heck of a debate I was wondering your opinion on Greyhound racing.
> 
> ...


Whilst I agree with most of what you say not all racing greyhound owners and trainers (well here in the UK) are as bad as that.

I used to take my dogs to a reasonably local hydrotherapy pool, which was part of a racing establishment. They kept most of their retired dogs and/or tried to find homes for them. The trainer was an expert in soft tissue injuries and also homeopathic/natural remedies. He was very picky where he ran his dogs and would also not run them in adverse weather conditions. He examined my collies on several occasions totally free of charge and was actually a kind and caring man. We did have a few debates on this very subject and I also met some owners that really cared about their dogs. Having said all that I'm sure this particular establishment was probably the exception to the rule.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> A
> 
> This is a big problem isnt it. Someone hears about a prosecution and immediately assumes it is the norm. Maybe we should not have pet dogs , after all there are frequent prosecutions for incredible cruelty.
> 
> By the way, a working dog is a working dog not a pet. A lot of sheepdogs are chained up or kennelled, often laid in their own filth, until they are needed to work the sheep. Gundogs are often kennelled. Guide dogs spend their first year as much loved pets and their second year in kennels being trained. I have known obedience competitors whose dogs are purely for work and are kennelled apart from when they are exercised, trained and taken to shows. Nothing wrong with kennels if it suits the dogs and its lifestyle.


How ever blitz you are only concentrating on one portion of the story and not on the story as a whole.As far as i am concerned any dog chained up and forced to live in its own filth then the owner should be brought up on charges weather it is a "working dog" or a "pet"


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rott lover said:


> How ever blitz you are only concentrating on one portion of the story and not on the story as a whole.As far as i am concerned any dog chained up and forced to live in its own filth then the owner should be brought up on charges weather it is a "working dog" or a "pet"


I do not think there is anything that they could be charged with but the reason I mentioned it is because the OP stated

*Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day. The "owners" involved in racing often have little to no contact with their dogs because they view them as investments, and they don't live in homes they live in kennels that are usually on or near the racetrack with the trainers. This is why Greyhounds often retire after injury, because the "owner" usually doesn't want to put the money in to pay for the injury, they'd rather just obtain a new racer and make profit off of them. This is also why when they retire because of injury, loss of interest in racing, or simply don't win competitions - they don't go home with the owner and spend their merry lives with a loving human who cares about them - they get dumped in rescues and shelters.*

And what she/he has said is just not true. to a lot of owners of working dogs they are just an investment and will be either shot or rehomed if they do not fulfil their worth. I am not sure what the story as a whole is to be honest. An animal activist is choosing to generalise about a sport that has a few bad apples and has actually stated that this is unlike dogs involved in other sports or jobs - which is blatantly not correct.
I am not giving an opinion on whether it is right or wrong that dogs are used like this but it is fact.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

When I was young and ignorant I used to love a night at the dogs - when I found out about the cruelty involved - the overbreeding and culling of healthy puppies, the racing injuries, the dogs too slow/injured for UK tracks but sold on as flappers, or sold abroad where they were literally raced to death in Spain and the Middle East, the dumping and brutal slaughter of even "good" greyhounds past their prime (which happens at 5/6 years of age as younger, faster dogs come up), dogs with their ears cut off to get rid of identifying tattoos, wrapped up in barbed wire, tied to breeze blocks and dumped in rivers, skulls beaten in with hammers, hung/strangled, suffocated, locked up and starved - you name it - some bar steward has used it as a way of killing a greyhound - when I found this out I couldn't ever go there again and am ashamed that I supported this foul industry.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> I don't like greyhound racing as a commercial activity, but my grandfather used to keep racing whippets who lived in the house as pets. My granny felt sorry for them being so thin, and would sneak them doughnuts!
> 
> This would be me! I would be giving them porridge or something to build them up . .
> two dogs collided on the exercise field and about a square foot of skin was torn off one of them; it took 3 surgeries to repair and the dog (a flat-coated retriever so not exactly thin-skinned) isn't back to full activity still. *My friend Judith's dog broke her neck when chasing a deer or rabbit in woodland,* also in June.


It's very easily done - one of my dogs died when another ran into her and snapped her little neck.

And just thinking about the skin torn off the dog you mentioned - greyhounds and whippets are incredibly fine-skinned - the canine equivalent of a jersey royal potato - and it takes next to nothing to tear their skins. And of course, there is no fat and next to no flesh beneath to protect them.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I do not think there is anything that they could be charged with but the reason I mentioned it is because the OP stated
> 
> *Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day. The "owners" involved in racing often have little to no contact with their dogs because they view them as investments, and they don't live in homes they live in kennels that are usually on or near the racetrack with the trainers. This is why Greyhounds often retire after injury, because the "owner" usually doesn't want to put the money in to pay for the injury, they'd rather just obtain a new racer and make profit off of them. This is also why when they retire because of injury, loss of interest in racing, or simply don't win competitions - they don't go home with the owner and spend their merry lives with a loving human who cares about them - they get dumped in rescues and shelters.*
> 
> ...


Most of those other things don't flood the market with over population and see many of them being pts and as un cared for as in the grey racing.I do see where you are coming from though.I didn't realize that many of these dogs are so un cared for either.As a whole i would then tend to agree that i don't agree with many of the treatment.Around here in America most of our working dogs are very well taken care of.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

You see, we hear these horror stories and then we hear of reasonable treatment of greyhounds. Some people will only believe that the horror stories say it all; others will believe that most greyhound owners are ethical,caring beings. I think the answer, on the whole, lies somewhere in between.

Many of us (including me) have heard of greyhound owners who love their dogs and who care for them after the racing is over, ensuring that they go on to a good forever home. It may not be the case in America, so I cannot comment on that, but it seems to me that arguing that all greyhound racing is wrong because of something that goes on in one particular country (or in some cases in that country) is overstating the case.

Greyhounds are thin and have thin skin, yes it's true. But over-feed a greyhound and you have an unhealthy dog and an unhappy dog who cannot run as fast as they want to. 
As to the skin, our greyhound-saluki cross had scars all down her legs from where she had run through barbed wire and bushes. We thought it had been that her previous owners had ill-treated her, but it was simply that she loved to run like the wind and tried to leap anything in her way. She gained a few more scars living with us too and it wasn't because she was ill-treated - she was just like a loon when off lead chasing prey, or just chasing. And even in an enclosed field, racing around with our saluki, she was still capable of doing herself harm when she got carried away with her chasing. The only thing that would have stopped her would be to keep her on a lead forever, and knowing our dog like we did, we knew that would have made her depressed and lethargic.

The over-breeding of greyhounds in some areas is a problem, but no more of a problem than the over-breeding of certain dogs in general.
How many staffies are languishing in rescues compared to greyhounds? I would bet that the figures are much higher.

I love to see greyhounds running, and, although I have no idea what goes on in a dog's mind (and no one on here can tell me they have either), it certainly appears to me that greyhounds love to run too.
I don't even mind the idea of racing dogs for profit, as long as the animals are treated well. 

And that, to me, is the bottom line. 
You don't have to ban greyhound racing. What you have to do is ensure that the greyhounds have a good life, before, during and after racing. Surely that's not impossible?


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Damn you silvi and all your making sense and such.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> Their body shape has been consistent from the time that they were used to hunt small prey, which is what they were originally used for. (Which they still are in some places but that's a whole other much more bloody matter, google "Greyhounds in spain"  )
> 
> Does Bordie keep his racing dogs and race them in tracks for betting ? I'd LOVE to hear that side because if he keeps them and loves them my faith could be restored!
> *
> OH! And injuries from racing are frequent, and wouldn't happen in day to day life*.


Ohhh, really? My lurcher has been known to come home bleeding on more than one occasion. She's torn the skin between her toes, torn her dew claw out, and had goodness knows how many scratches and scrapes to her legs because of her running through bushes etc.

And she does love to run, BTW, as you can see here:



And from this video here:


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Ohhh, really? My lurcher has been known to come home bleeding on more than one occasion. She's torn the skin between her toes, torn her dew claw out, and had goodness knows how many scratches and scrapes to her legs because of her running through bushes etc.
> 
> And she does love to run, BTW, as you can see here:
> 
> ...


Lovely pics and video.

Here's another happy running pic - of our greyhound cross chasing our saluki


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Twiggy said:


> Whilst I agree with most of what you say not all racing greyhound owners and trainers (well here in the UK) are as bad as that.
> 
> I used to take my dogs to a reasonably local hydrotherapy pool, which was part of a racing establishment. They kept most of their retired dogs and/or tried to find homes for them. The trainer was an expert in soft tissue injuries and also homeopathic/natural remedies. He was very picky where he ran his dogs and would also not run them in adverse weather conditions. He examined my collies on several occasions totally free of charge and was actually a kind and caring man. We did have a few debates on this very subject and I also met some owners that really cared about their dogs. Having said all that I'm sure this particular establishment was probably the exception to the rule.


That's wonderful but yes as you said it's probably the exception  I have a few rescues in my area and I've spoken to three of them. One of them supports the industry for the only reason that they think the breed will die off (what a terrible reason to keep something inhumane around) and the other two strongly dislike racing because many of their hounds come to them with injuries that they have to deal with due to the owners negligence and lack of care. The ones they can't treat have to be pts because they're not profit and don't have to tools or money to treat large injuries or put dogs through physical therapy as needed. Some dogs were treated for their injuries on site from the veterinarians on the track, but often minimally and then they're whisked to rescues in a lot of pain where it will be further determined if they can recover, if they'll be special needs pets, or if they'll have to be pts.

Not to mention one of them had been in there for 8 years and another for 6 because they simply couldn't (and can't) find homes.

Most of their racers come from Florida, which is home to 12 out of the 21 tracks still legally operating in the USA


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

silvi said:


> You see, we hear these horror stories and then we hear of reasonable treatment of greyhounds. Some people will only believe that the horror stories say it all; others will believe that most greyhound owners are ethical,caring beings. I think the answer, on the whole, lies somewhere in between.
> 
> Many of us (including me) have heard of greyhound owners who love their dogs and who care for them after the racing is over, ensuring that they go on to a good forever home. It may not be the case in America, so I cannot comment on that, but it seems to me that arguing that all greyhound racing is wrong because of something that goes on in one particular country (or in some cases in that country) is overstating the case.
> 
> ...


While I agree with a lot of what you said and now realize I was wrong to presume greyhounds might not like running (and have stated that I think racing would be excellent if it was done like agility or show) I will continuously not support greyhound racing, personally, because no matter how much the owners care - in the end they don't keep the dogs. They toss them to rescues or pass them off to someone else (however much time they spend finding a good home), which is not really all that caring in my book. To me, they bought the dog, and just because the dog can't win them money doesn't mean they should be disposed of.

Just in America alone, thousands of greyhounds each year are euthanized solely for the purpose of not being able to find a home. On the uglier side of things, it's not unheard of for puppies who aren't sold due to lack of competitability being culled.

Just because it happens elsewhere or there's more of one breed sitting in shelters does not mean that this breed should be ignored or that people shouldn't find it wrong. Of course I disagree with all of that garbage, irresponsible breeding, but I'm speaking of this issue and not that one. Comparing them doesn't make much sense.

Beautiful dogs by the way! Thank you on enlightening me on their many injuries obtained from day to day life. I was wrong.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

totally against it,
we have 2 in at the moment,both only 2,already retired,calluses on their elbows.
at my last rescue,we had an 18mth old bought in for being "too friendly" on the track.
tuened out he had a detatched retina on one eye.
i will own an ex racer one day.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> totally against it,
> we have 2 in at the moment,both only 2,already retired,calluses on their elbows.
> at my last rescue,we had an 18mth old bought in for being "too friendly" on the track.
> tuened out he had a detatched retina on one eye.
> i will own an ex racer one day.


Wow! That's horrific. I'm confused, did they lie about the reason they were retiring him in order to find him a place to live more quickly or something? Or to avoid vet bills? Gah!


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

both i believe,vets feel it was sustained on the track.he went blind in that eye
he found a wondeful home,


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> both i believe,vets feel it was sustained on the track.he went blind in that eye
> he found a wondeful home,


Good! I'm so glad to hear  do you know where he came from? Was it in the states? I hear a lot of nasty things about Florida tracks


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

nope here in the uk,the rescue was in london,so from a track around there


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Sighthounds certainly do love to run, there's nothing brings my lot as much joy as really pushing themselves as fast as they can go. They don't need anything to chase or any encouragement, even if none of the others are up for a game they'll just do circuits for the field on their own :Joyful It's wonderful to watch!!!

I don't believe greyhound racing _has_ to be cruel (just look at whippet racing, done as a hobby by many owners just like agility, etc.) but there is no doubt there's a lot wrong with the industry as it currently is. There's a lack of transparency (facilitated by the industry, at least in the UK, being self-regulating which I think needs to change) and a resistance to change, both of which are major issues.

There's too much focus on the racing being entertaining for the punters than safe for the dogs. I can't find it now but I read an article a while back about the design of tracks often contributing to the injuries sustained by the dogs during races and certain tracks (due to the differing configurations) being more likely to produce certain types of injury than others.

There's also clearly a _huge_ problem with an overpopulation of the dogs, both those deemed not fit for racing and those whose careers are over. Whatever the proportion of "good" to "bad" owners when it comes to finding dogs new homes there's far too many of the latter when the numbers of greyhounds ending up in rescues through avenues other than owner surrender is so high.

There needs to be more accountability, the lack of which is an issue with allowing the industry to self-regulate. The Wall of Shame on Tia's website is sobering reading (in fact it's pretty damn harrowing in parts), so many of these dogs are traceable back to their owners or trainers and yet nothing is done to penalise the repeat offenders who just dump the dogs they've no more use for.

If racing won't change then I would be happy to see it gone forever.

I would be happier still if racing became a safe (as much as any doggy activity can be) sport to be enjoyed by both dogs and owners, without the huge fallout of unwanted dogs and other welfare issues currently plaguing it.

Because sighthounds really do love to run, and it's a fabulous thing to watch........


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

I have heard and seen some pretty nasty things around here as well.We have a track in Kenosha which is not too far from me.I have seen many of the rescues taking them from miles around.I have heard some pretty terrible things from the track as well.All the things i know of them is based on hear say and he said from she said so that is why i am primarily staying out of the conversation.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

SingingWhippet said:


> Sighthounds certainly do love to run, there's nothing brings my lot as much joy as really pushing themselves as fast as they can go. They don't need anything to chase or any encouragement, even if none of the others are up for a game they'll just do circuits for the field on their own :Joyful It's wonderful to watch!!!
> 
> I don't believe greyhound racing _has_ to be cruel (just look at whippet racing, done as a hobby by many owners just like agility, etc.) but there is no doubt there's a lot wrong with the industry as it currently is. There's a lack of transparency (facilitated by the industry, at least in the UK, being self-regulating which I think needs to change) and a resistance to change, both of which are major issues.
> 
> ...


Extremely well said! I wholeheartedly agree with this whole post. Damn why didn't you just write my opener for me


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Extremely well said! I wholeheartedly agree with this whole post. Damn why didn't you just write my opener for me


Sometimes that happens here lol.I have had to eat a few of my words as well so it is ok to be corrected once in a while.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Error post lmao


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Rott lover said:


> Sometimes that happens here lol.I have had to eat a few of my words as well so it is ok to be corrected once in a while.


I eat my words all the time! I just hate wen people can't admit when they're clearly wrong.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Sighthounds can be (and are) raced in safer and more dog friendly environments all the time. It's called lure coursing. The dogs and humans love it!


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

silvi said:


> Lovely pics and video.
> 
> Here's another happy running pic - of our greyhound cross chasing our saluki


I thought it hurt When Oliver took me out at the knee.I would hate to feel that hitting me full steam.It would probably break me.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Sighthounds can be (and are) raced in safer and more dog friendly environments all the time. It's called lure coursing. The dogs and humans love it!


Lure coursing is much different from the racing industry I'm speaking of and batting against!  Lure coursing is fun and I have no problems with it


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> While I agree with a lot of what you said and now realize I was wrong to presume greyhounds might not like running (and have stated that I think racing would be excellent if it was done like agility or show) I will continuously not support greyhound racing, personally, because no matter how much the owners care - in the end they don't keep the dogs. They toss them to rescues or pass them off to someone else (however much time they spend finding a good home), which is not really all that caring in my book. To me, they bought the dog, and just because the dog can't win them money doesn't mean they should be disposed of.
> 
> Just in America alone, thousands of greyhounds each year are euthanized solely for the purpose of not being able to find a home. On the uglier side of things, it's not unheard of for puppies who aren't sold due to lack of competitability being culled.
> 
> ...


Sadly that is quite an old picture and our sight hounds are no longer with us. They both passed on last year (but at a reasonably old age and from natural causes, not from racing).

I do agree that the racing industry (legitimate and hidden) needs much better regulation and that the emphasis needs to be on the health and welfare of the dogs. It's just that I think that we are looking at this from the wrong angle and should be looking at ways to make greyhound racing safe (well, as safe as it can be considering the nature of the dogs) and good for the dogs, with assured care for the greyhounds from puppyhood until they leave racing to become pets, rather than insisting that the whole thing needs to be banned.

I lived in Spain for a while and have seen what happens to galgos (the Spanish term for all large sight hounds) and it is often barbaric. But the vast majority of dog racing in Spain is a hidden industry which is why it is so difficult to regulate.

Bringing in more regulations and rules is not usually something I am keen on, but in the case of greyhound/galgo/sight hound racing, I think it is very necessary.
But having said that, here in the UK over recent years, many greyhound tracks have closed down because they did not adhere to new regulations and this has included some of the less safe (usually smaller) tracks, so we are getting there. And that gives me hope that more can be done to help the greyhounds while keeping greyhound racing going.

One more point. Greyhound owners are not the only pet owners who get their pets re-homed when they have finished the 'work' they were assigned to do. Breeders often do this too. For them (as with many greyhound owners), it doesn't mean that they don't care about their pets, but, as they run a breeding establishment they sometimes feel that their ex-breeding dog/cat will be happier in another home. Breeders who do this will tell you that they care about their pets, which is why they re-home them and choose their new homes very carefully.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Rott lover said:


> I thought it hurt When Oliver took me out at the knee.I would hate to feel that hitting me full steam.It would probably break me.


We learned very quickly either to move out of the way or to huddle together and hope they went round us at the last minute.
But all of us were at one time or another somersaulted off our feet by Izzy and Leo in full flight. Luckily it was usually in a field so we had a fairly soft landing


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

SingingWhippet said:


> Because sighthounds really do love to run, and it's a fabulous thing to watch........


Beautiful pictures.
Makes me miss our sight hounds even more...


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

silvi said:


> We learned very quickly either to move out of the way or to huddle together and hope they went round us at the last minute.
> But all of us were at one time or another somersaulted off our feet by Izzy and Leo in full flight. Luckily it was usually in a field so we had a fairly soft landing


It happened to me in the back yard a couple of times and i still have knee problems.It was so bad that both times i ended up face planted in the yard.The first time was so bad i had blood gushing out of my nose and 2 black eyes and ended up on crutches.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

chickenfoot said:


> That's wonderful but yes as you said it's probably the exception  I have a few rescues in my area and I've spoken to three of them. One of them supports the industry for the only reason that they think the breed will die off (what a terrible reason to keep something inhumane around) and the other two strongly dislike racing because many of their hounds come to them with injuries that they have to deal with due to the owners negligence and lack of care. The ones they can't treat have to be pts because they're not profit and don't have to tools or money to treat large injuries or put dogs through physical therapy as needed. Some dogs were treated for their injuries on site from the veterinarians on the track, but often minimally and then they're whisked to rescues in a lot of pain where it will be further determined if they can recover, if they'll be special needs pets, or if they'll have to be pts.
> 
> *Not to mention one of them had been in there for 8 years and another for 6 because they simply couldn't (and can't) find homes. *
> 
> Most of their racers come from Florida, which is home to 12 out of the 21 tracks still legally operating in the USA


The bolded bit - I think that is extreme cruelty. Far better to put them to sleep than to leave them living a frustrated life in kennels, maybe not even allowed to run. At least in racing kennels they will be kept fit and taken to the races.

I looked after 2 racing afghans in kennels once. Poor dogs had done 6 months in quarantine and then put straight into the boarding section because the owners did not really want them. Poor dogs must have been going out of their mind though I have to say they were very well mannered and easy to do.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Rott lover said:


> It happened to me in the back yard a couple of times and i still have knee problems.It was so bad that both times i ended up face planted in the yard.The first time was so bad i had blood gushing out of my nose and 2 black eyes and ended up on crutches.


That was bad! 

The silly thing was, although our sight hounds brought me down on a number of occasions, they didn't hurt me.
But two of our small, fluffy rescue dogs tripped me down a mountainside leaving me with a badly-broken leg.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Blitz said:


> The bolded bit - I think that is extreme cruelty. Far better to put them to sleep than to leave them living a frustrated life in kennels, maybe not even allowed to run. At least in racing kennels they will be kept fit and taken to the races.
> 
> I looked after 2 racing afghans in kennels once. Poor dogs had done 6 months in quarantine and then put straight into the boarding section because the owners did not really want them. Poor dogs must have been going out of their mind though I have to say they were very well mannered and easy to do.


The eight year one was placed in foster, but I don't know about the 6 year one. I know for sure that one of them I visited, if they're there for more than 3 years, they're placed with a foster family. Also, of all three kennels I visited, all of them were MUCH better than the kennels they're in at the track. They were long and wide, and they had a little door that was raised by a chain in the back that they could choose to go outside with whenever they pleased and at night it was closed and locked. The actual yard was huge and had plenty of room for running. The kennels were temperature controlled and padded, and each doggy got a proper bed.

Still without homes, but better than kennels and in my opinion far better than euthanasia. Of course not all kennels are like this, but this is for these individual dogs I was speaking of.

And even for the dogs who don't find homes and are euthanized elsewhere - that's a big problem! These dogs are perfectly fine dogs and SHOULD have stayed with the person who bought them, not destined to a terrible and sad fate of untimely death for no reason other than being without a home. That is one of the big main reasons I don't support racing - the thousands of greys euthd for no reason other than there aren't enough adoptable homes due to owners who race them not keeping them.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Also like to add I'm not sure the euth policy of any of the rescues I visited, I'd have to go back and ask again because I didn't. So they could be special cases and I'm sure at least one of them has to euthanize due to not finding a home whether that be permanent or foster.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

After stating it was the betting which kept it alive... I started to question myself... and came across this article...

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...habits-may-kill-dog-racing-good-final-flutter


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> The eight year one was placed in foster, but I don't know about the 6 year one. I know for sure that one of them I visited, if they're there for more than 3 years, they're placed with a foster family. Also, of all three kennels I visited, all of them were MUCH better than the kennels they're in at the track. They were long and wide, and they had a little door that was raised by a chain in the back that they could choose to go outside with whenever they pleased and at night it was closed and locked. The actual yard was huge and had plenty of room for running. The kennels were temperature controlled and padded, and each doggy got a proper bed.
> 
> Still without homes, but better than kennels and in my opinion far better than euthanasia. Of course not all kennels are like this, but this is for these individual dogs I was speaking of.
> 
> And even for the dogs who don't find homes and are euthanized elsewhere - that's a big problem! These dogs are perfectly fine dogs and SHOULD have stayed with the person who bought them, not destined to a terrible and sad fate of untimely death for no reason other than being without a home. That is one of the big main reasons I don't support racing - the thousands of greys euthd for no reason other than there aren't enough adoptable homes due to owners who race them not keeping them.


You're talking about greys being given up for rehoming and subsequently being euthanised because no such home is forthcoming as if it's a breed-specific problem that greys alone face. It's not. Thousands of dogs are handed over to rescue every day because of even less "reasons" than greys are. They're handed over because the owner has a new job/home, because its sh!t stinks (yes, really), because it "doesn't match the carpet/furniture", because they didn't realise the dog would get so big (breeds like GSD, apparently), and, as silvi(?) pointed out, they're rehomed by breeders because they are retiring them and don't have the space for them, or, my personal pet peeve, because its old now and they've just got a puppy.

I'm not saying it's right that greys are rehomed when they retire, but they're certainly not unique for the fact that they're rehomed young.

If you want this thread to remain about greyhound racing, how about keeping it to the specifics of racing life? Because if one of your biggest pet peeves about the racing is that the dogs are rehomed at the end of their racing careers, you're really talking about a whole new problem - the rehoming crisis and how ex-racers are contributing to it.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

diefenbaker said:


> After stating it was the betting which kept it alive... I started to question myself... and came across this article...
> 
> http://www.economist.com/news/brita...habits-may-kill-dog-racing-good-final-flutter


It's strange isn't it, that people would rather bet on a computer animation than a greyhound or horse race? I think it shows laziness or the need for instant gratification and no understanding of betting at all.

I worked in a bookies for a while when I was a student and remember talking to the regular punters who studied the odds - mainly for horse racing I admit, but even with greyhound racing you could bet according to the track, the trap raced from, inside or outside lane, and how that suited a particular dog, etc. The betting used to have a little bit of skill to it, but now it's determined by a computer. 
Where's the fun in that?
(and yes, I know that gambling isn't always about skill and is often an addiction, but betting on a race used to be more than that)


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> You're talking about greys being given up for rehoming and subsequently being euthanised because no such home is forthcoming as if it's a breed-specific problem that greys alone face. It's not. Thousands of dogs are handed over to rescue every day because of even less "reasons" than greys are. They're handed over because the owner has a new job/home, because its sh!t stinks (yes, really), because it "doesn't match the carpet/furniture", because they didn't realise the dog would get so big (breeds like GSD, apparently), and, as silvi(?) pointed out, they're rehomed by breeders because they are retiring them and don't have the space for them, or, my personal pet peeve, because its old now and they've just got a puppy.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right that greys are rehomed when they retire, but they're certainly not unique for the fact that they're rehomed young.
> 
> If you want this thread to remain about greyhound racing, how about keeping it to the specifics of racing life? Because if one of your biggest pet peeves about the racing is that the dogs are rehomed at the end of their racing careers, you're really talking about a whole new problem - the rehoming crisis and how ex-racers are contributing to it.


It's not wrong of me to dislike the aspect of racing industry, and I won't change that I am disgusted by it. I understand where you're coming from, but this is a whole industry going on that's just tossing dogs away for profit. It's wrong to me, and should be stopped in my opinion. Of course I disagree with people tossing any dog away, but this is a BUSINESS supporting it and exploiting these hounds for profit. And it's going on every day and it's wrong.

Not to mention that I disagree with them being kept in kennels on the track, and how owners won't pay for injuries if their dogs are injured and instead leave them in the hands of rescues. And then to turn around and buy another one to only use for two years for investment - its horrific!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Want to add that I'm not comparing the two, or saying one is worse than the other, just saying this is an issue I dislike and disagree with


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

silvi said:


> It's strange isn't it, that people would rather bet on a computer animation than a greyhound or horse race? I think it shows laziness or the need for instant gratification and no understanding of betting at all.
> 
> I worked in a bookies for a while when I was a student and remember talking to the regular punters who studied the odds - mainly for horse racing I admit, but even with greyhound racing you could bet according to the track, the trap raced from, inside or outside lane, and how that suited a particular dog, etc. The betting used to have a little bit of skill to it, but now it's determined by a computer.
> Where's the fun in that?
> (and yes, I know that gambling isn't always about skill and is often an addiction, but betting on a race used to be more than that)


I never got the virtual racing side of things either whilst I was working in the industry...that was until I stopped viewing the virtual stuff as an actual race, because it isn't. It is just a different way to play the lottery 

The amount of injured dogs I used to see on a daily basis in that job was what put me off dog racing tbh...the tracks are just too dangerous


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I never got the virtual racing side of things either whilst I was working in the industry...that was until I stopped viewing the virtual stuff as an actual race, because it isn't. It is just a different way to play the lottery
> 
> The amount of injured dogs I used to see on a daily basis in that job was what put me off dog racing tbh...the tracks are just too dangerous


Would you say that the injuries they got exceeded those they might obtain in day to day or in other doggy sports? Just out of curiosity, I'm interested to get an answer from someone who actually worked with them!

I read somewhere that tracks are often built in a way that's more exciting to the viewers, but causes more accidents and injuries to the racers  Just something I read though, so take it with a grain of salt. It would be sad if that was the reality of it though.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Would you say that the injuries they got exceeded those they might obtain in day to day or in other doggy sports? Just out of curiosity, I'm interested to get an answer from someone who actually worked with them!
> 
> I read somewhere that tracks are often built in a way that's more exciting to the viewers, but causes more accidents and injuries to the racers  Just something I read though, so take it with a grain of salt. It would be sad if that was the reality of it though.


Due to the way that the track is set up then I would lean onto the side that says that racing hounds receive more injuries...it's the corners that are the main issue, it just takes one to take a wrong step and they wipe the whole lot out. And many punters don't see that just because a dog finishes a race it doesn't mean it walked away injury free 

The thing with any racing is that it is a very corrupt industry, which is all about the money. There WILL be owners and trainers that care more about the dogs welfare than the money BUT they are few and far between IMHO


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Its not something I agree with or will ever support but there are people who race their dogs who do genuinely care about the dogs and treat them well. Unfortunately there is a lot that don't either. 
We have recently adopted a retired grey and from what we know he was well looked after - although his previous 'owner' only saw his as stock to bring money in. Yet on a recent greyhound walk we went to there was a little bitch looking for a home who'd just come into rescue. She and two others had been abandoned in a barn. I actually shed tears over her. She was underweight and terrified. She was a pitiful sight.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Due to the way that the track is set up then I would lean onto the side that says that racing hounds receive more injuries...it's the corners that are the main issue, it just takes one to take a wrong step and they wipe the whole lot out. And many punters don't see that just because a dog finishes a race it doesn't mean it walked away injury free
> 
> The thing with any racing is that it is a very corrupt industry, which is all about the money. There WILL be owners and trainers that care more about the dogs welfare than the money BUT they are few and far between IMHO


Anytime anyone tells me "not ALL owners don't care about their dogs" I just get frustrated because yes I'm sure there's that handful that do but :/ That's the exception not the rule


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

XemzX said:


> Its not something I agree with or will ever support but there are people who race their dogs who do genuinely care about the dogs and treat them well. Unfortunately there is a lot that don't either.
> We have recently adopted a retired grey and from what we know he was well looked after - although his previous 'owner' only saw his as stock to bring money in. Yet on a recent greyhound walk we went to there was a little bitch looking for a home who'd just come into rescue. She and two others had been abandoned in a barn. I actually shed tears over her. She was underweight and terrified. She was a pitiful sight.


That's horrific! God I would take in so many dogs in need of homes had I enough room  My boyfriend and I want to one day buy a big house with lots of property and buy dogs from shelters that need it bad and spend the time and care that many shelters don't to actually find them good loving homes where they won't end up back at the shelter should they not match the carpets or shed too much or some garbage 

Or my favorite excuse - our landlord said no

WHY IN THE HELL DIDN'T YOU CHECK TO MAKE SURE YOUR LANDLORD WOULD ALLOW YOU TO HAVE DOGS BEFORE YOU COMMITTED TO ONE!?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

My dream would be to contact shelters and take the babies on the "euth list"s and find them loving homes.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> I don't like greyhound racing as a commercial activity, but my grandfather used to keep racing whippets who lived in the house as pets. My granny felt sorry for them being so thin, and would sneak them doughnuts!
> I expect the dogs kept in kennels DO have soft beds (even if straw) and decent food, too. A dog kept on a hard surface and badly fed would be more likely to be stiff and less likely to run well and make money for the owner.
> 
> And
> ...


A friends whippet was recently killed in an accident when a doberman ran into her in a field they hoped she would recover but sadly it was not to be.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> That's horrific! God I would take in so many dogs in need of homes had I enough room  My boyfriend and I want to one day buy a big house with lots of property and buy dogs from shelters that need it bad and spend the time and care that many shelters don't to actually find them good loving homes where they won't end up back at the shelter should they not match the carpets or shed too much or some garbage
> 
> Or my favorite excuse - our landlord said no
> 
> WHY IN THE HELL DIDN'T YOU CHECK TO MAKE SURE YOUR LANDLORD WOULD ALLOW YOU TO HAVE DOGS BEFORE YOU COMMITTED TO ONE!?


So now you have a problem with rehoming centres, too? 

It's not the centres' fault that we live in a throwaway society in which people believe they have the right to the latest fad RIGHT NOW and equally have the right to dump it for no real reason when they get bored, be that the latest iPhone, a dog, a computer or a gerbil. In fairness, I suppose you could say that at least the "average" greyhound owner is honest about why they're rehoming, and not making up pathetic excuses as I pointed out above. Rehoming centres do what they can to find every dog a new loving forever home (well.... most do. The one I got my 2 from is more in line with the BYB but that's because I got mine from the local pound). Yes, sometimes dogs sadly get bounced back to rescue, but the centres are more thorough and therefore more successful at finding loving forever homes than the average BYB and puppy farmer who are REALLY responsible for the rehoming crisis.

As for taking in the most needy dogs from shelters and rehoming them yourselves - I don't know about the US, but rescue centres up and down the country do that already over here.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> So now you have a problem with rehoming centres, too?
> 
> It's not the centres' fault that we live in a throwaway society in which people believe they have the right to the latest fad RIGHT NOW and equally have the right to dump it for no real reason when they get bored, be that the latest iPhone, a dog, a computer or a gerbil. In fairness, I suppose you could say that at least the "average" greyhound owner is honest about why they're rehoming, and not making up pathetic excuses as I pointed out above. Rehoming centres do what they can to find every dog a new loving forever home (well.... most do. The one I got my 2 from is more in line with the BYB but that's because I got mine from the local pound). Yes, sometimes dogs sadly get bounced back to rescue, but the centres are more thorough and therefore more successful at finding loving forever homes than the average BYB and puppy farmer who are REALLY responsible for the rehoming crisis.
> 
> As for taking in the most needy dogs from shelters and rehoming them yourselves - I don't know about the US, but rescue centres up and down the country do that already over here.


What?? I never said I have a problem with rehoming centers, why put words into my mouth? I'm not sure what that phrase even means - are you talking about rescues or pounds? Because I'm talking about pounds where dogs are truly lying in cages because they were tossed away by their owners. I'm saying it would be a lovely thing if I could get a bit of property and take dogs from the euth list and let them stay in my warm and loving home while I found them owners to keep them forever. Not really sure what you're trying to paint that as but I was just saying it would be nice. I live near California and the shelters there are AWFUL. There are SO SO SO many dogs in Cali and the euth lists are miles long. They have so many dogs they can't be bothered, and if the dog is a pit or pit mix they're usually just sent straight to euth. If they've been there longer than a couple weeks in some areas - it's the euth list for them.

These are the kinds of shelters I'm speaking of. Not ones that try very hard to find them homes or rescue organizations. There's a shelter around here that's pretty good about not putting dogs to sleep but they euthanize hundreds of cats every year. It's so sad how many cats we have in the shelter in my town. People just don't care about cats here 

Also just because organizations already do it doesn't mean my help won't matter to the 10-12 dogs I could house at a time with a nice bit of property who get a real chance at a life. I don't really get your way of thinking because even if they still do it, it would be cool to help imo. And I would take all of them from kill shelters, the ones that need it most.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Anytime anyone tells me "not ALL owners don't care about their dogs" I just get frustrated because yes I'm sure there's that handful that do but :/ That's the exception not the rule


I don't like blanket statements..The fact is that many owners DO care about their dogs, ok it may be in a different way to you or I but that doesn't take away the fact that they care..


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I don't like blanket statements..The fact is that many owners DO care about their dogs, ok it may be in a different way to you or I but that doesn't take away the fact that they care..


Can't speak for other countries but here in America many greyhound owners don't care much about their dogs after they retire. It's why it's illegal in all but 7 states here.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Can't speak for other countries but here in America many greyhound owners don't care much about their dogs after they retire. It's why it's illegal in all but 7 states here.


But that can be said for any breed in any location...we live in a throw away society where thousands of dogs are dumped, it isn't just restricted to racing.

Don't get me wrong because I do not support racing, but you can't lump everyone into the same bucket...


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> What?? I never said I have a problem with rehoming centers, why put words into my mouth? I'm not sure what that phrase even means - are you talking about rescues or pounds? Because I'm talking about pounds where dogs are truly lying in cages because they were tossed away by their owners. I'm saying it would be a lovely thing if I could get a bit of property and take dogs from the euth list and let them stay in my warm and loving home while I found them owners to keep them forever. Not really sure what you're trying to paint that as but I was just saying it would be nice. I live near California and the shelters there are AWFUL. There are SO SO SO many dogs in Cali and the euth lists are miles long. They have so many dogs they can't be bothered, and if the dog is a pit or pit mix they're usually just sent straight to euth. If they've been there longer than a couple weeks in some areas - it's the euth list for them.
> 
> These are the kinds of shelters I'm speaking of. Not ones that try very hard to find them homes or rescue organizations. There's a shelter around here that's pretty good about not putting dogs to sleep but they euthanize hundreds of cats every year. It's so sad how many cats we have in the shelter in my town. People just don't care about cats here
> 
> Also just because organizations already do it doesn't mean my help won't matter to the 10-12 dogs I could house at a time with a nice bit of property who get a real chance at a life. I don't really get your way of thinking because even if they still do it, it would be cool to help imo. And I would take all of them from kill shelters, the ones that need it most.


First of all, apologies if I misunderstood you. Maybe I jumped to conclusions, and thought you had a problem with rehoming centres and if so, I apologise.

However, I think you're a bit blinkered when it comes to the rehoming crises. Pits, elderly dogs, black dogs, dogs that aren't cute and fluffy, they simply don't get homes. There's nowhere for them to go. Rescue centres only have limited space available, and there's more dogs than spaces. If your local shelter gives them a couple of weeks to find a home, that's actually pretty good. Some only have 7 days. 7 days to find a new home, or it's the back room for them. It's tragic, and no one here likes it, but it's fact. Shelters are full to bursting. Some are turning dogs away - why do you think there are so many dogs on Gumtree/Preloved etc? Because shelters just don't have the space for them. It's cruel, it's heartbreaking, it just plain stinks, the whole damn lot of it stinks, but it's a cruel, heartbreaking, stinky old world.

You're talking about taking on 10-12 dogs from kill shelters. What? At the same time? That's admirable, but realistically, could you actually look after that many for as long as it takes to find them new forever homes, without resorting to kennelling them? Is there an upper limit as to how many dogs you can legally own in California? What about the neighbours, and the noise from 10-12 dogs? or do you intend to live on a farm/ranch? How would you financially afford to keep 10-12 dogs on the same site and make sure they have everything they need - food, shelter, flea/worming treatment, spay/neutering costs, any medical attention that the individual dog/s need? What if one dog doesn't get along with others? Could you keep that one separate and still provide the love and care that it needs? What if it has behavioural problems? Would you have the resources needed to rehabilitate it and get it fit for a new home? What if no homes are forthcoming? How long would you be prepared to keep them? How long COULD you keep them?

How could you do all that without turning into a hoarder?
How long before you realise you, yourself, have to turn dogs away?

Don't get me wrong, it's admirable that you want to help out, but you need to be realistic in how many you can cope with, and your limitations. Nobody's saying don't help out with rescues, - please do - volunteer, take dogs for walks, spend time with them, adopt 1 or 2 and free up spaces for the next handovers. At least that way you could rest assured knowing that you did your best and have saved a life or 2 by rehoming. But know your limitations and accept that you just can't save them all. None of us can.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

I am completely and utterly against it. Here are some facts.

1. The racing industry is self regulated which means that it is easy for things to be covered up. The GBGB (Greyhound Board of Great Britain) has been approached many times to make the fates of the dogs public, but has refused to do so.

2. Trainers who are caught breaking the rules (such as doping dogs) usually get off lightly and get to keep their licences.

3. It is estimated that some 50,000 Greyhounds have 'vanished' over the past decade.

4. Dogs are killed even if the receive treatable injuries.

5. The GBGB has (on its 'retirement' form) an option to kill a dog for economic grounds. That is its way of admitting to the fact that it does view dogs as being disposable.

6. If trainers pull their dogs out of races because they are unhappy with track/weather conditions and handicapping procedures then they can be fined.

7. The shape of the tracks accounts for racing being as dangerous. Being oval makes racing more unpredictable and the first bend is the most dangerous part of the track because all the dogs are running in a tight pack at high speeds resulting in collisions and horrific (often fatal) injuries. The industry refuses to straighten out the tracks.

8. Tracks routinely fail to lift the traps in time and there have been many instances of dogs slamming into them at full speed when they come round the bend. Tracks obviously aren't doing much to prevent this as it happens as often.

9. It is perfectly legal to kill dogs with a bolt gun even though it was one of the most inhumane ways to kill them. This is due to the shapes of their skulls. Many dogs have been shot with a bolt gun and dumped only for them to have survived the attempt to kill them. Even individuals who aren't licensed or trained to use bolt guns can kill/attempt to kill dogs with them.

10. In 2007 a man called David Smith was found to have killed at least *10,000* dogs and had buried them on his property. He was fined, but not for killing the dogs. He was given a slap on the wrists for polluting the land. The sheer number of dogs that he (alone) killed just goes to show that there are a good number of trainers who are willing to get rid of their dogs in such a manner.

11. In 2008 a knacker's yard that supplies meat to the industry was found to be killing dogs on the side for a mere £20 per dog.

12. The industry donates dogs to universities for dissection. They either donate them dead or alive.

13. Since Greyhounds are universal blood donors they are often bled out before being killed.

14. Every licenced track in the UK has a freezer to store dead dogs.

15. In order to stop Greyhounds barking, some trainers will drill nails into muzzles and force the dogs to wear them.

16. Dogs can be raced in all weathers and even severe weather. There is video footage of them running in the freezing cold (as evidenced by snow) and during thunder and lightning. A couple of weeks ago racing went ahead at Newcastle despite there being prolonged thunderstorms. It was so bad that television coverage was interrupted and the mechanical lure failed during a race causing a collision. One dog was injured and his/her fate remains unknown. This prompted a debate on the BBC Newcastle's radio station.

17. In 2009 a Greyhound called Snip Nua appeared on the BBC's Three Men go to Ireland show. When the show was first broadcast the dog was already dead. The syndicate that had her included Dara O'Brian (who also appeared in the show) and they had her killed because she sustained a treatable hock injury. When the show went to air there was no mention at all of the fact that she was dead. The BBC (quite rightly) received a number of complaints and when the show was repeated all of Snip Nua's scenes had been cut.

18. While the Retired Greyhound Trust was set-up by the industry most of its funding comes from public donations.

19. An investigation for a New Zealand current affairs show revealed that dogs (known to be dead within the industry) are officially listed as 'retired'.

20. As has been said already there was a huge expose recently in Australia regarding live baiting. Not long afterwards the bodies of more than 50 Greyhounds were found near Bundaberg.

I could go on listing things, but I would be typing all day. You can say that there are trainers who genuinely care about their dogs, but the fact remains that they continue to support the industry by running their dogs. If they were so against the negative aspects then surely they would refuse to run their dogs until things change for the better. All the industry is going to do is look at the 'responsible' ones and say well if they are still entering their dogs in races then things can't be that bad. If they were to protest and refuse to run their dogs then I would have more respect for them. However, they don't. But I do have to say that had it not been for a trainer handing over their dogs to be rehomed then I wouldn't have my beautiful Greyhound girlie.

There is also the argument that dogs love to run and that they pick up injuries while out and about and I'm not going to deny those things. There is a difference between running at high speeds in a tight pack around an oval track and a couple of dogs running about a wide open field. Yes accidents can happen during the latter, but you considerably jack up the odds of having injuries while they are racing. Both of mine have been injured while running off lead and walking on lead. My Greyhound ripped off one of her dew claws while running and she has had quite a few scrapes. My Lurcher came back home one night after his walk and he had a nasty hole in his skin near one of his shoulders. About the only thing that could have happened was that he had brushed up against a thorny bush as he was peeing and one of the thorns ripped his skin open. He needed several staples put in. He also split one of his stopper pads open while he was running and needed an operation to sew it back up. And the pair of them have both cut their feet on broken glass.

So for me all the negatives outweigh the positives and there either needs to be a massive overhaul of the industry (DEFRA is currently reviewing welfare regulations) or racing needs to be phased out completely.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> What?? I never said I have a problem with rehoming centers, why put words into my mouth? I'm not sure what that phrase even means - are you talking about rescues or pounds? Because I'm talking about pounds where dogs are truly lying in cages because they were tossed away by their owners. I'm saying it would be a lovely thing if I could get a bit of property and take dogs from the euth list and let them stay in my warm and loving home while I found them owners to keep them forever. Not really sure what you're trying to paint that as but I was just saying it would be nice. I live near California and the shelters there are AWFUL. There are SO SO SO many dogs in Cali and the euth lists are miles long. They have so many dogs they can't be bothered, and if the dog is a pit or pit mix they're usually just sent straight to euth. If they've been there longer than a couple weeks in some areas - it's the euth list for them.
> 
> These are the kinds of shelters I'm speaking of. Not ones that try very hard to find them homes or rescue organizations. There's a shelter around here that's pretty good about not putting dogs to sleep but they euthanize hundreds of cats every year. It's so sad how many cats we have in the shelter in my town. People just don't care about cats here
> 
> Also just because organizations already do it doesn't mean my help won't matter to the 10-12 dogs I could house at a time with a nice bit of property who get a real chance at a life. I don't really get your way of thinking because even if they still do it, it would be cool to help imo. And I would take all of them from kill shelters, the ones that need it most.


Sorry, but you sound incredibly naive about the pet overpopulation crisis.
Municipal pounds and shelters have no choice but to take in the dogs they're given. They're operating completely underfunded and they can only do what they can do. There is only so much room, so their hands really are tied.

That said, there are also NUMEROUS rescues and no-kill shelters - yes TONS in California too, who take in dogs who are adoptable, who have the funding for decent home checks, and trainers etc. to ensure dogs get in to compatible homes and stay there.

If this is something near and dear to you, I suggest you find a rescue who's policies you can support, there are plenty to choose from, and volunteer your time. If you don't have time to volunteer, you can make donations, either financial, or of new and gently used goods that they can use for their dogs. 
I think it's a good idea to get some experience in rescue and how to do it "right" before taking on the venture yourself.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but you sound incredibly naive about the pet overpopulation crisis.
> Municipal pounds and shelters have no choice but to take in the dogs they're given. They're operating completely underfunded and they can only do what they can do. There is only so much room, so their hands really are tied.
> 
> That said, there are also NUMEROUS rescues and no-kill shelters - yes TONS in California too, who take in dogs who are adoptable, who have the funding for decent home checks, and trainers etc. to ensure dogs get in to compatible homes and stay there.
> ...


TBF, OP is 19. When I was that age, or maybe a little older, I dreamed of having a bird of prey sanctuary, out in the countryside ... Basically much along the same lines as her wish to rescue dogs and keep them in her own home.

I still don't know where wisdom took over from youthful dreams or passions.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> You're talking about taking on 10-12 dogs from kill shelters. What? At the same time? That's admirable, but realistically, could you actually look after that many for as long as it takes to find them new forever homes, without resorting to kennelling them? Is there an upper limit as to how many dogs you can legally own in California? What about the neighbours, and the noise from 10-12 dogs? or do you intend to live on a farm/ranch? How would you financially afford to keep 10-12 dogs on the same site and make sure they have everything they need - food, shelter, flea/worming treatment, spay/neutering costs, any medical attention that the individual dog/s need? What if one dog doesn't get along with others? Could you keep that one separate and still provide the love and care that it needs? What if it has behavioural problems? Would you have the resources needed to rehabilitate it and get it fit for a new home? What if no homes are forthcoming? How long would you be prepared to keep them? How long COULD you keep them?


Sadly I agree with this.
The most dogs we had at our miniature rescue was 10. There were 4 of us, plus help with funding from two larger rescues, but it was hard work, 24 hours a day. And it only took one of us to be ill or tied up with work and the whole plan went downhill very fast.
There wasn't the time to give any of the dogs complete individual attention, even for walks. It is impossible to walk 10 dogs individually on a daily basis, so they learned to walk in (I hate to use the word but...) packs of 3 or 4.
They were all house trained, but they often followed each others lead in that, and we were lucky that none of them had huge behavioural problems, because any slight 'argument' could escalate very quickly.

Finding them forever homes was incredibly difficult, because we didn't have the influence or the range of the larger rescues, and with caring for the dogs and working, we didn't have time to run a big promotion campaign, so we had to rely on the rescues to help.

We breathed a long sigh of relief when the rescues helped us more and took more responsibility and we became 'foster owners' for the dogs in our care. It may have felt like admitting defeat, but it was actually better for the dogs. We had more time to get them used to living as part of a family (rather than one of a fairly large number of dogs) and we certainly had more peace of mind about the dogs' future welfare.


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## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

Yes I am against it. Animals are living beings, not commodities to be used for our pleasure.


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I am completely and utterly against it. Here are some facts.
> 
> 1. The racing industry is self regulated which means that it is easy for things to be covered up. The GBGB (Greyhound Board of Great Britain) has been approached many times to make the fates of the dogs public, but has refused to do so.
> 
> ...


I did not know a lot of this. Your going to have me in tears!  To think that my sweet Jonesy could have ended up like that and that many dogs like him are used and abused like that. Greys are such sweet, lovely natured dogs. Humans can be so cruel. 
Your dogs are beautiful btw


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but you sound incredibly naive about the pet overpopulation crisis.
> Municipal pounds and shelters have no choice but to take in the dogs they're given. They're operating completely underfunded and they can only do what they can do. There is only so much room, so their hands really are tied.
> 
> That said, there are also NUMEROUS rescues and no-kill shelters - yes TONS in California too, who take in dogs who are adoptable, who have the funding for decent home checks, and trainers etc. to ensure dogs get in to compatible homes and stay there.
> ...


Of course I support those rescues and shelters and understand that... It's not like I'm bunkering down and taking in dogs as we speak. It's just a cool thought that came to mind. Don't see why it could possibly be a bad thing to take dogs that need homes and rehome them :/


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Of course I support those rescues and shelters and understand that... It's not like I'm bunkering down and taking in dogs as we speak. It's just a cool thought that came to mind. Don't see why it could possibly be a bad thing to take dogs that need homes and rehome them :/


Don't see where I said it was a bad thing - done right. 
There are a lot of ways it can be done wrong though. Which is why working with a reputable rescue is one way you can help and also learn some helpful things about operating a rescue.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> First of all, apologies if I misunderstood you. Maybe I jumped to conclusions, and thought you had a problem with rehoming centres and if so, I apologise.
> 
> However, I think you're a bit blinkered when it comes to the rehoming crises. Pits, elderly dogs, black dogs, dogs that aren't cute and fluffy, they simply don't get homes. There's nowhere for them to go. Rescue centres only have limited space available, and there's more dogs than spaces. If your local shelter gives them a couple of weeks to find a home, that's actually pretty good. Some only have 7 days. 7 days to find a new home, or it's the back room for them. It's tragic, and no one here likes it, but it's fact. Shelters are full to bursting. Some are turning dogs away - why do you think there are so many dogs on Gumtree/Preloved etc? Because shelters just don't have the space for them. It's cruel, it's heartbreaking, it just plain stinks, the whole damn lot of it stinks, but it's a cruel, heartbreaking, stinky old world.
> 
> ...


Okay firstly I understand all of what you said THATS WHY I WANT TO HELP

Secondly that was a number I threw out there. I'm 19. I don't need to be coached on how to run a rescue. I'm going to college in the spring. I didn't mean that I'm starting up a rescue right now. I'm sure if I ever actually started a program I'd figure it out. I also didn't mean I was going to go out there and drop 1200 dollars on 12 dogs at once and hope for the best. I mean maybe I could work up to it if I had enough property, got experienced, and had enough money. I know a lady, bless her, and she rescues GSDs on her own. She gets them from California like I want to do. She had 10 last I spoke to her. She doesn't have kennels or anything just a loving home and a desire to save them.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I am completely and utterly against it. Here are some facts.
> 
> 1. The racing industry is self regulated which means that it is easy for things to be covered up. The GBGB (Greyhound Board of Great Britain) has been approached many times to make the fates of the dogs public, but has refused to do so.
> 
> ...


To get back on topic, these are very bleak facts that furthers my argument of why you shouldn't support the Industry. Thank you for the information


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Ok since people don't seem to get this let me make it perfectly clear just so there is no confusion

IF I EVER DECIDED TO START A RESCUE PROGRAM

1. Of course I'd have help it would be idiotic not to
2. it would be FAR down the line of my future and I would be financially stable. I'm 19 YEARS OLD! I am going to college for marine biology where I will study sea lions. That doesn't exactly have a rescue program painted into the picture
3. I completely understand the crisis of pet overpopulation that's why I want to help so I don't understand why people are telling me the facts when ? I know how horrible it is that's exactly the reason I want to help
4. I also don't understand why people are trying to talk me out of it? Rescue groups are great and I think a home based one would be marvelous so dogs aren't in cages all the time and can stay in a home while I find them a forever one.
5. Of course I don't have a plan laid out of exactly how it would go, so I threw the numbers 10 and 12 out there. I wasn't going to go to some random place in California and dump 1200 dollars on a bunch of dogs and blindly take them home - I'd start with one, go from there, and see what I could manage.

Like I said, I'm 19 and this is just a vague dream of mine if the chance ever came up (I had enough property, money, help, etc)

I think some people were a bit confused in my intentions.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

For irony's sake, it is a bit funny that the most bickering I've experienced on this thread is about my dreams of opening a rescue! I thought I'd be bashing my head from this thread, but everyone has been pretty reasonable and when there's a disagreement has presented in kindly

Also thank you for trying to inform me that my fantasies weren't reality if I were just being a naive 19 year old who was going to open a rescue tomorrow with no further research - I'd do the same in your shoes but please rest easy knowing this wouldn't happen until I was say in my 30's. Still got a long stretch to go.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> Okay firstly I understand all of what you said THATS WHY I WANT TO HELP
> 
> Secondly that was a number I threw out there. I'm 19. I don't need to be coached on how to run a rescue. I'm going to college in the spring. I didn't mean that I'm starting up a rescue right now. I'm sure if I ever actually started a program I'd figure it out. I also didn't mean I was going to go out there and drop 1200 dollars on 12 dogs at once and hope for the best. I mean maybe I could work up to it if I had enough property, got experienced, and had enough money. I know a lady, bless her, and she rescues GSDs on her own. She gets them from California like I want to do. She had 10 last I spoke to her. She doesn't have kennels or anything just a loving home and a desire to save them.


Hang on! Nobody's trying to coach you on anything! You're throwing thoughts out left right and centre, to the point where it seems you're posting the first thing that comes into your head. You were talking about maybe taking the most at risk dogs and rehoming them, you mentioned the dream of taking on 10-12 dogs if you had the space and property to do so. At that point, I wasn't aware of how old you were, or what your immediate plans were. I wasn't aware that you are/were going to college in the Spring - you've only just mentioned it! I'm not a mind-reader.

No one is trying to discourage you from going into rehoming dogs if that's what you want to do with your life - all we're saying is, take a step back and think about the bigger picture. At the risk of sounding old, I was as passionate about birds of prey (especially falcons) at your age as you are about dogs. I wanted my own sanctuary. At 31 I'm a carer, living in a dead-end town, with 2 dogs, driving a 2nd hand car, and facing a REALLY big dilemma about my immediate future which has _nothing _to do with my youthful 19y/o/early 20s passion.

Sometimes life gets in the way. I hope it doesn't for you, but if you're serious about this (even if it is a few years in the future), take the advice given here on board, get the experience, and work through the problems.

Then you can come back on here and tell us all "I told you so"...

If I'm still around by then, I'll be the first to congratulate you.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Hang on! Nobody's trying to coach you on anything! You're throwing thoughts out left right and centre, to the point where it seems you're posting the first thing that comes into your head. You were talking about maybe taking the most at risk dogs and rehoming them, you mentioned the dream of taking on 10-12 dogs if you had the space and property to do so. At that point, I wasn't aware of how old you were, or what your immediate plans were. I wasn't aware that you are/were going to college in the Spring - you've only just mentioned it! I'm not a mind-reader.
> 
> No one is trying to discourage you from going into rehoming dogs if that's what you want to do with your life - all we're saying is, take a step back and think about the bigger picture. At the risk of sounding old, I was as passionate about birds of prey (especially falcons) at your age as you are about dogs. I wanted my own sanctuary. At 31 I'm a carer, living in a dead-end town, with 2 dogs, driving a 2nd hand car, and facing a REALLY big dilemma about my immediate future which has _nothing _to do with my youthful 19y/o/early 20s passion.
> 
> ...


Thank you for everything you've tried to help me with, sorry I did get a bit snippy I was just frustrated. The rescue thing is just something in the back of my head that probably wont even happen and something I just threw out there with no intentions to discuss so when people started to question it I was a little confused mostly because it's not even something I'm dead set on and just, as I said, a thought. I think it would be marvelous but obviously I'm not equipped to do it any time soon and without that knowledge I don't blame you for trying to get my intentions and inform me, but it's not even something I'm researching myself right now because I'm just not ready and have absolutely no clue if it's something I'll follow through with in the future. Just simply a thought and some wild fantasy dream of mine if the chance ever did arrise. I was just confused about why people were saying I'm naive to the pet over population crisis and informing me on all of the dogs that don't have homes or are euth'd each year as if I was trying to support that - because I'm not naive to it I'm very aware of it and that's the reason I want to help.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> Thank you for everything you've tried to help me with, sorry I did get a bit snippy I was just frustrated. The rescue thing is just something in the back of my head that probably wont even happen and something I just threw out there with no intentions to discuss so when people started to question it I was a little confused mostly because it's not even something I'm dead set on and just, as I said, a thought. I think it would be marvelous but obviously I'm not equipped to do it any time soon and without that knowledge I don't blame you for trying to get my intentions and inform me, but it's not even something I'm researching myself right now because I'm just not ready and have absolutely no clue if it's something I'll follow through with in the future. Just simply a thought and some wild fantasy dream of mine if the chance ever did arrise. I was just confused about why people were saying I'm naive to the pet over population crisis and* informing me on all of the dogs that don't have homes or are euth'd each year as if I was trying to support that - because I'm not naive to it I'm very aware of it and that's the reason I want to help*.


Meh, communication breakdown, crossed wires and so on ... It happens.

No one was suggesting that you were trying to support the number of dogs that are euthanised every year, though. Not at all. It just seemed to me (and by the sounds of it, I wasn't the only one) as though you were focusing on one little part of that - the ex-racing greyhound part. That's where the comments about being blinkered, or naive come in. It's a bit like you're saying "OMG! How terrible! Greyhounds are being handed over to rescues for no other reason than because their working days are over!" And I believe you did actually say that the owners mustn't care for them if they can do that. And all we're saying in reply to that is "But ... The greyhound contribution to the rehoming crisis (while truly awful) is just one piece of a massive jigsaw puzzle". You're looking at the trees and can't see the woods for them. That's all we're saying! Not that you support the euthanisation of thousands of perfectly healthy dogs.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Meh, communication breakdown, crossed wires and so on ... It happens.
> 
> No one was suggesting that you were trying to support the number of dogs that are euthanised every year, though. Not at all. It just seemed to me (and by the sounds of it, I wasn't the only one) as though you were focusing on one little part of that - the ex-racing greyhound part. That's where the comments about being blinkered, or naive come in. It's a bit like you're saying "OMG! How terrible! Greyhounds are being handed over to rescues for no other reason than because their working days are over!" And I believe you did actually say that the owners mustn't care for them if they can do that. And all we're saying in reply to that is "But ... The greyhound contribution to the rehoming crisis (while truly awful) is just one piece of a massive jigsaw puzzle". You're looking at the trees and can't see the woods for them. That's all we're saying! Not that you support the euthanisation of thousands of perfectly healthy dogs.


Well in response to that I believe it's okay for me to vouch for the greyhounds as much as any other dog tossed away, and the main reason I have such a big problem with it is because it's done for profit and it's an industry built on throwing out dogs. Not just negligent owners - greedy negligent owners.

But I ALSO try everything I can to help those animals who need it that aren't greyhounds as well, I've fostered a couple dogs and lots of cats as well as volunteered at shelters so I'd like to think I'm doing my best to help. It's just this thread is about greyhounds, and while I could make a whole other post about all animals who need homes - people already know about that. A lot of people simply don't know about greyhounds and what they face, so my aim was to inform and get opinions. Not to mention that being thrown out isn't the only thing they face - between being sold as breeding stock on puppy farms and being donated as live blood donors and sucked dry depending on the greyhound they can have a pretty bleak existence.

Anyway! I think the point is that I care - about all animals no matter the reason for their abandonment. And I think we all do

I want to apologize for crying about people putting words into my mouth while turning and doing the same because I did and that's just ignorant and annoying so I'm sorry, just riled is all!


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Strong with the force are you young paduan. But choose your topics wisely you must. Then a forum member can you be.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Nicki85 said:


> I do not have a picture of the whole industry, it's not something I'd go and watch or support but I have a recent experience to share...
> 
> At agility last night one lady came with a very nervous racing greyhound. He was a beautiful dog, just under two and very nervous of people. The dog was owned by her relative who owns a number of dogs- I believe there were 150 in the kennels he came from. This greyhound was the fastest in the kennel but as he was so nervous wouldn't race well. The owner had asked the lady to take him as she lives on a farm with high fences (she has other hounds!) to try and get him more happy around other people in the hope that he'd go back to the track. I talked to her about it for a bit and asked about retired dogs/ broken dogs and she said that her relative always pays for a dog to be "fixed" where possible and will always find them a home when they retire. In a recent case a dog had broken a leg and would never race again but the owner had paid for it to be fixed and then to find it a home.
> 
> It's not all "bad" out there, some owners do care for their dogs... It may not be the perfect life that a "pet" dog has but if they are well cared for and their needs being met and also being looked after once retired, it's difficult to find a reason why it should be stopped completely.


That owner is in the *very* small minority though, I fear


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> That owner is in the *very* small minority though, I fear


Agree with this 100 percent. You hear a handful of cases from PF who are surrounded by people who love their dogs, but the fact is the majority of the dogs in the industry are simply tossed out.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> While I personally disagree with being kept in kennels for years of their life - my problem is also with over breeding and homeless greyhounds that are dumped in shelters when they retire, not just with how they're kept while racing.
> 
> This is the Greyhound Racing Association of America's website that tries to paint it all in a nice light, but what disturbs me is number 8 where it blatantly admits the following
> 
> "Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."


Just because they state that - doesn't mean it's true 

I'm pretty sure there will be a similar statement laid down in the UK equivalent "rule book" but here there is a huge campaign on at present to ban the use of the bolt gun - which is what many greyhounds are dispatched with. The campaigners clearly DON'T think the bolt gun is a humane way to euthanize a dog.

Are we to believe that greyhounds discarded by the racing industry are pts in the same way as our beloved pets in a quiet consulting room, or home away from other animals/stresses? I very much doubt it.

They are, for the most part, treated as commodities. Anyone who has any experience of hounds will know that they are extremely sensitive creatures and even though my own experience of them is in a rehoming kennels where they are picking up the pieces and saving them from PTS, doing their best to keep them well and find new homes for them, the reality of 40+ dogs in concrete, unheated kennels is pretty upsetting. The stress levels experienced by the hounds and handlers, just from the noise levels, is immense IME.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

silvi said:


> .....as long as the animals are treated well.
> 
> And that, to me, is the bottom line.
> You don't have to ban greyhound racing. What you have to do is ensure that the greyhounds have a good life, before, during and after racing.* Surely that's not impossible*?


Unfortunately, it probably is - *that's* the problem.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> Unfortunately, it probably is - *that's* the problem.


In order to make greyhounds have a good life before during and after, it would mean that people who bought and raced them would have to view them as something other than investments and keep them afterwards to ensure they had a home for life, as well as train them or work with trainers instead of just LEAVING THEM with trainers and letting the trainers take care of them and keep them in kennels. It would also mean the banning of culling puppies who aren't competitable, don't sell, or have minor health issues that would otherwise be fine except they can't sell them if they are defected. The people buying them want money, not a problem. Culling is a disgusting practice that will continue where there's money to be made. It would also mean banning the use of perfectly good greyhounds being used to donate blood, sucked dry, and euth'd. It would mean stopping the over breeding so dogs weren't left homeless and euth'd, which would also mean stop sending so many retired racehounds to just be used a breeding stock on puppy farms.

There's so many flaws and issues with the industry that I really don't see how anyone could support it as is.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

silvi said:


> It's strange isn't it, that people would rather bet on a computer animation than a greyhound or horse race? I think it shows laziness or the need for instant gratification and no understanding of betting at all.
> 
> I worked in a bookies for a while when I was a student and remember talking to the regular punters who studied the odds - mainly for horse racing I admit, but even with greyhound racing you could bet according to the track, the trap raced from, inside or outside lane, and how that suited a particular dog, etc. The betting used to have a little bit of skill to it, but now it's determined by a computer.
> Where's the fun in that?
> (and yes, I know that gambling isn't always about skill and is often an addiction, but betting on a race used to be more than that)


Surely, though the fact that people can still have a flutter *without *the use of living, breathing, feeling animals is a positive thing?

My OH and son joined in with a fundraising event at their football club recently when a night of Snail Racing was laid on. I honestly believed they used live snails and was a bit negative about it - and was really surprised when my son fell about laughing at me and said it was all animated! I was delighted 

But, the guys all still had a great time - I don't think their enjoyment would have been any greater if they were actually at a track.

To my shame, I did go to a couple of greyhound racing social events many moons ago without really giving it much thought, and TBH I think the vast majority of people didn't even take much notice of the dogs - just the result (and the food and drink). So, IMO the same enjoyment can be gained, without using live dogs.

People bet on computers all the time. Slot machines, roulette, internet poker, etc. For serious gamblers, it doesn't really matter what they are putting their money on. As for "social" gamblers, they could probably take it or leave it - so if greyhound racing ceased tomorrow would it be missed?

As for the point someone made about the greyhounds contributing to the massive "rehoming" problems - if greyhound racing was no more the facilities and people involved in their plight would no doubt be redirected to the benefit of dogs in general.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Okay firstly I understand all of what you said THATS WHY I WANT TO HELP
> 
> Secondly that was a number I threw out there. I'm 19. I don't need to be coached on how to run a rescue. I'm going to college in the spring. I didn't mean that I'm starting up a rescue right now. I'm sure if I ever actually started a program I'd figure it out. I also didn't mean I was going to go out there and drop 1200 dollars on 12 dogs at once and hope for the best. I mean maybe I could work up to it if I had enough property, got experienced, and had enough money. I know a lady, bless her, and she rescues GSDs on her own. She gets them from California like I want to do. She had 10 last I spoke to her. She doesn't have kennels or anything just a loving home and a desire to save them.


I know exactly what you meant 

I remember posting in a previous thread that asked something like "what would you do if you won the lottery?" and I responded along similar lines.

Of course, having millions meant that I could create a "home from home" environment and instead of kennels the dogs would have their own "bedrooms"  and there would be plenty of live in staff to see to the dogs' every need - money was no object 

As you rightly stated, whilst rehoming centres and shelters may well be doing the very best they can it would be lovely to be able to provide a proper "home" environment to all dogs in "rescue"


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> In order to make greyhounds have a good life before during and after, it would mean that people who bought and raced them would have to view them as something other than investments and keep them afterwards to ensure they had a home for life


I wasn't going to come back to this thread as I thought I'd said all I wanted to say, but I must re-iterate what I said earlier. It is not only greyhound owners that re-home their dogs after they have done their 'work'. It is a different way of looking at things, so many of us can't understand it, but to say that this is part of the cruelty is to take a very narrow view of the situation.

It's the same with rescue dogs. We couldn't possibly have kept all the dogs we rescued; it would have been terrible for them. But we made sure we found them good homes where they could get the individual attention they needed.
Were we being cruel in not keeping them ourselves?
I don't think so.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> Surely, though the fact that people can still have a flutter *without *the use of living, breathing, feeling animals is a positive thing?
> 
> My OH and son joined in with a fundraising event at their football club recently when a night of Snail Racing was laid on. I honestly believed they used live snails and was a bit negative about it - and was really surprised when my son fell about laughing at me and said it was all animated! I was delighted
> 
> ...


What I was saying is that the nature of betting has changed. Where betting on the horses or the dogs used to be a skill (a risky skill but in some cases a real skill), it is now pretty mindless.
The gamblers I saw when working in the bookies did care what they bet on. They were very particular what races to choose and what to leave alone. They were usually not the type to bet on a fly climbing a wall (or football scores for that matter). But it appears that this type of gambler is long gone (it was when I was a student about 15 years ago after all ).

That's really what I was saying. I just can't get my head around betting on anything where a computer decides the outcome. But obviously there are many who can


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

silvi said:


> What I was saying is that the nature of betting has changed. Where betting on the horses or the dogs used to be a skill (a risky skill but in some cases a real skill), it is now pretty mindless.
> The gamblers I saw when working in the bookies did care what they bet on. They were very particular what races to choose and what to leave alone. They were usually not the type to bet on a fly climbing a wall (or football scores for that matter). But it appears that this type of gambler is long gone (it was when I was a student about 15 years ago after all ).
> 
> That's really what I was saying. I just can't get my head around betting on anything where a computer decides the outcome. But obviously there are many who can


In my time in the industry I noticed two types of betters.
You had your punters, who were seasoned betters with a good grasp of the bets they are placing.
And then you got your bog standard gamblers, who were the ones that came in to have a bet..any bet, it made no difference so long as they place a bet.

You would see addicts in both groups, but I would much rather deal with a punter than a gambler...I lost count of how many times I was abused in that job! Spitting was a favourite for some :Hungover


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> In my time in the industry I noticed two types of betters.
> You had your punters, who were seasoned betters with a good grasp of the bets they are placing.
> And then you got your bog standard gamblers, who were the ones that came in to have a bet..any bet, it made no difference so long as they place a bet.
> 
> You would see addicts in both groups, but I would much rather deal with a punter than a gambler...I lost count of how many times I was abused in that job! Spitting was a favourite for some :Hungover


We were behind thick glass. I think mainly for that reason.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

silvi said:


> We were behind thick glass. I think mainly for that reason.


We had glass fitted after an armed robbery, but it didn't stop them spitting at the glass :Facepalm


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> We had glass fitted after an armed robbery, but it didn't stop them spitting at the glass :Facepalm


Liked because I know just what you mean there....:Yuck


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

silvi said:


> I wasn't going to come back to this thread as I thought I'd said all I wanted to say, but I must re-iterate what I said earlier. It is not only greyhound owners that re-home their dogs after they have done their 'work'. It is a different way of looking at things, so many of us can't understand it, but to say that this is part of the cruelty is to take a very narrow view of the situation.
> 
> It's the same with rescue dogs. We couldn't possibly have kept all the dogs we rescued; it would have been terrible for them. But we made sure we found them good homes where they could get the individual attention they needed.
> Were we being cruel in not keeping them ourselves?
> I don't think so.


The cruel part is the result of euthanasia and the other uses for greyhounds that are inhumane. I understand it completely, and I disagree with it.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

Also want to add that regardless of if the nature of betting has changed - the nature of greyhound treatment is still in need of progress. I do not agree with an industry built off of greed and the rehoming / possible euthanasia of perfectly good dogs no matter the reason. You buy a dog, it should be your responsibility to care for it - ESPECIALLY if you're equipped to do so and simply don't view the dog as a pet but a mere investment. If someone came on her and told people they were looking to rehome their dog because it couldn't earn them money in races anymore it would be a huge thread where everyone chewed out that person for treating their dog poorly - so why support the industry built on that kind of behavior?


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

Just want to point out that a lot of dog owners have dogs that they don’t view as pets. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, nor does it mean the do will necessarily be mistreated or not have a good life. Plenty of ranches have LGDs as workers, not pets, they have herders as workers, not pets. Military and police dogs are workers, not pets. Service dogs are workers, not pets. The list goes on.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I don't think anyone here is supporting the industry to be fair.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Also want to add that regardless of if the nature of betting has changed - the nature of greyhound treatment is still in need of progress. I do not agree with an industry built off of greed and the rehoming / possible euthanasia of perfectly good dogs no matter the reason. You buy a dog, it should be your responsibility to care for it - ESPECIALLY if you're equipped to do so and simply don't view the dog as a pet but a mere investment. If someone came on her and told people they were looking to rehome their dog because it couldn't earn them money in races anymore it would be a huge thread where everyone chewed out that person for treating their dog poorly - so why support the industry built on that kind of behavior?


It's just the racing industry? People buy dogs so they can make money in many ways! Designer breeds, puppy farmers etc....

Plenty of people dump or rehome dogs because it no longer does what they brought it for be it money or image!

So question just to play devils advocate is your dog a rescue?

I'm totally opposed to racing of any animal btw....


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

Meezey said:


> It's just the racing industry? People buy dogs so they can make money in many ways! Designer breeds, puppy farmers etc....
> 
> Plenty of people dump or rehome dogs because it no longer does what they brought it for be it money or image!
> 
> ...


I got Cosmo on Craigslist.

Of course I disagree with puppy mills and people who dump dogs, AS SAID BEFORE I DISAGREE WITH THESE THINGS but! This is a thread about greyhound racing. I could make a thread about all of these things but this one is about racing industry.

Reputable breeders that I support spend a lot of time on their puppies, and they spend a lot of time finding them homes. People who just send their racers with a "good luck" and push them off to rescues who may not have the room to house them or the tools to fix their injuries which results in their euthanasia is what I disagree with. The problem is that the owners of these greyhounds buy them and later just give them away, even though I believe when you buy a dog its YOUR responsibility to care for them. Owners of greyhounds don't see their dogs as pets or things they care for they see them as money piles which is what I disagree with.

And yes, not EVERY owner is like this, but the truth is MOST owners do not keep their dogs for the sole purpose that THEY CANT MAKE THEM MONEY ANY LONGER and this is WRONG


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I don't think anyone here is supporting the industry to be fair.


I wasn't accusing anyone of doing that, but I'm just confused as to why I'm being questioned if people don't agree with the industry. I've given my view countless times and still its questioned. It's tiring and frustrating but I knew to expect it when I made the thread. I just don't understand why my reasons aren't getting acrossed and still being questioned. I have given my point of view and at this point I feel like a broken record.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Just want to point out that a lot of dog owners have dogs that they don't view as pets. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, nor does it mean the do will necessarily be mistreated or not have a good life. Plenty of ranches have LGDs as workers, not pets, they have herders as workers, not pets. Military and police dogs are workers, not pets. Service dogs are workers, not pets. The list goes on.


My grandpa works for the county so I know a few police officers with canines and that's not by any stretch of the imagination true. These dogs are cared for better than me, and at the end of the work day they go home with the owners where they are loved and cared for. The officer owns them and they view them as part of the family. After the dog retires it stays with the officer where they continue to care for the dog.

People who own service animals LOVE their animals and I have never met one person with a service Animal that didn't have an extremely close bond with their dog, and I never met one that kept their dog in kennels and didn't love them and view them as family

My grandma Lynn had sheep and she had a border collie named Yoda. He was a working dog but had a home to go to where he was cared for at the end of the day.

The only LGD I know are pyrs and are pets, but my point is even working dogs have a HOME to go to at the end of the day with an owner that cares. Greyhounds don't go home with their owners at the end of the day, they sit in the trainers kennels on or near the track and after a few years of being in kennels they are tossed to rescues and STILL don't have an owner where they will sit in kennels some more until they're finally brought home by someone who likely doesn't support the industry.

I think people are missing my point


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> My grandpa works for the county so I know a few police officers with canines and that's not by any stretch of the imagination true. These dogs are cared for better than me, and at the end of the work day they go home with the owners where they are loved and cared for. The officer owns them and they view them as part of the family. After the dog retires it stays with the officer where they continue to care for the dog.
> 
> People who own service animals LOVE their animals and I have never met one person with a service Animal that didn't have an extremely close bond with their dog, and I never met one that kept their dog in kennels and didn't love them and view them as family
> 
> ...


Well you certainly missed mine LOL.
That's what I was saying. Dogs that are not pets are not necessarily not treated well - often even better cared for than dogs who are pets. Perhaps you don't understand my meaning when I refer to a pet dog as opposed to a police K9, a service dog, a LGD....?


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Well you certainly missed mine LOL.
> That's what I was saying. Dogs that are not pets are not necessarily not treated well - often even better cared for than dogs who are pets. Perhaps you don't understand my meaning when I refer to a pet dog as opposed to a police K9, a service dog, a LGD....?


Oh ok, I getcha now. That would be marvelous if the greys were treated well. Sitting in kennels with only 4 rotations of 30 minutes is not a fulfilling life imo. That's 2 hours meaning unless they're practicing (which they don't every day) they're sitting in there for 22 hours a day. And after all that may just end up euthanized.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

A working dog can be loved and cared for but a working dog that is viewed as a heap of money and not cared for by the owner is not something I want to support


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

to be fair my retired greyhounds lounge about on sofas for about 22hrs most days, take them out for the day they tend to need a few days to recover with extra snoozing.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

2Hounds said:


> to be fair my retired greyhounds lounge about on sofas for about 22hrs most days, take them out for the day they tend to need a few days to recover with extra snoozing.


Even if, that's in a home where they're getting attention and a nice sofa, not a metal kennel with a blanket


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

silvi said:


> What I was saying is that the nature of betting has changed. Where betting on the horses or the dogs used to be a skill (a risky skill but in some cases a real skill), it is now pretty mindless.
> The gamblers I saw when working in the bookies did care what they bet on. They were very particular what races to choose and what to leave alone. They were usually not the type to bet on a fly climbing a wall (or football scores for that matter). But it appears that this type of gambler is long gone (it was when I was a student about 15 years ago after all ).
> 
> That's really what I was saying. I just can't get my head around betting on anything where a computer decides the outcome. But obviously there are many who can


I get that 

People will gamble, regardless. It is usually regarded a leisure activity (for most) so whether or not it involves skill or effort is irrelevant to me.

I would just prefer that it didn't involve the accepted and unnecessary wholesale cruelty and misuse of *any* animals - that's all


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> I got Cosmo on Craigslist.
> 
> Of course I disagree with puppy mills and people who dump dogs, AS SAID BEFORE I DISAGREE WITH THESE THINGS but! This is a thread about greyhound racing. I could make a thread about all of these things but this one is about racing industry.
> 
> ...


Anyone embarking now on the ownership and racing of a greyhound is fully aware of the massive problem of "surplus" and "retired" greyhounds already and so should not be surprised that it will eventually need somewhere else to go, very early on in it's life. I find it hard to believe that a true animal lover would have anything to do with perpetuating the industry TBH.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> A working dog can be loved and cared for but a working dog that is viewed as a heap of money *and not cared for by the owner *is not something I want to support


And neither would any of us here.
I've simply been saying that a dog that is owned for work or even for money is not necessarily ill treated.
And ownership of a profitable dog does not always equate to cruelty to that dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

chickenfoot said:


> My grandpa works for the county so I know a few police officers with canines and that's not by any stretch of the imagination true. These dogs are cared for better than me, and at the end of the work day they go home with the owners where they are loved and cared for. The officer owns them and they view them as part of the family. After the dog retires it stays with the officer where they continue to care for the dog.
> 
> People who own service animals LOVE their animals and I have never met one person with a service Animal that didn't have an extremely close bond with their dog, and I never met one that kept their dog in kennels and didn't love them and view them as family
> 
> ...


I think you are the one that is missing the point. Lots of dogs live in kennels. What is wrong with it if they are well cared for. Ok, so you can quote some examples of working dogs that live in a house, I am sure everyone else can quote many examples where they do not.

You quote service dogs. I only know about Guide Dogs for the blind but those dogs are in a pet home for a year being acclimatised to life. They are then taken away from the only home they know, the people who love them and care for them and put in kennels with a lot of strangers looking after them. They are trained and after a few months are matched with a blind person. If they turn out not to be a good match they are taken from that loving home and put back in kennels. If they are a good match they get a few years with that owner until the time comes to retire them, which is fairly young with some breeds. Unless the blind person is in a position to keep 2 dogs or not go for another guide dog they are then passed on to a retirement pet home. So these lovely dogs who are supposed to be 100 percent with everything through their lives actually go through far more homes and kennelling than the average rescue dog! And most cope very well with it - so why would greyhounds not cope equally well with that side of their lives.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

chickenfoot said:


> Even if, that's in a home where they're getting attention and a nice sofa, not a metal kennel with a blanket


the greyhound kennels i've been to they had a big raised bed usually filled with either shredded soft paper or jcloth rags to nest into, usually with a buddy for company. some had outdoor runs attached to kennel but all had space inside to move about & a paddock area to be turned out into to play in.

I imagine it depends I've a friend whose dogs are only allowed in certain areas of house and with work probably get less contact than my own dogs but does that mean there unhappy or just what they're used to.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

i forgot, in the states they are crated, but given it tends to be warmer than UK maybe they need less bedding to stay cool, the dogs would probaly get sores without adequate comfort. I prefer british style kennels seem roomier but unless you work in that environment its not always clear why it evolved that way.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> I wasn't accusing anyone of doing that, but I'm just confused as to why I'm being questioned if people don't agree with the industry. I've given my view countless times and still its questioned. It's tiring and frustrating but I knew to expect it when I made the thread. I just don't understand why my reasons aren't getting acrossed and still being questioned. I have given my point of view and at this point I feel like a broken record.


I only pulled you up on the blanket statements..it's all well and good being against something (rightly so with racing) but it is no good throwing out blanket statements because it puts people off.

The industry needs a complete overhaul for sure (being independently regulated would be a start) but the fact of the matter is that money talks, and there is far too much money in the betting industry for a complete ban


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Ok since people don't seem to get this let me make it perfectly clear just so there is no confusion
> 
> IF I EVER DECIDED TO START A RESCUE PROGRAM
> 
> ...


You're preaching to the choir.

The majority of us here are very pro-rescue and many of us own/have owned or been involved in rescue.

Collecting rescue dogs isn't quite so romantic as it may appear.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I don't like blanket statements..The fact is that many owners DO care about their dogs, ok it may be in a different way to you or I but that doesn't take away the fact that they care..


many owners in the race industry dont care about the dog per say.They care more about the money the dog can make them.To be blunt about it most of them throw dogs away like dirty underwear.Dog doesnt make any money ?out with it and in with another.That is the norm around here.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> many owners in the race industry dont care about the dog per say.They care more about the money the dog can make them.To be blunt about it most of them throw dogs away like dirty underwear.Dog doesnt make any money ?out with it and in with another.That is the norm around here.


But many pet owners are the same?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

silvi said:


> And neither would any of us here.
> I've simply been saying that a dog that is owned for work or even for money is not necessarily ill treated.
> And ownership of a profitable dog does not always equate to cruelty to that dog.


But my point is THESE DOGS ARE. The owner has little to nothing to do with the dogs. They don't care for them at all, they hire a trainer to care for them where the greyhound is stuck in a kennel for most of its racing life, and then sent to a different kennel to wait for either death or someone to adopt them if they're lucky enough. The owners don't care for them or keep them in their homes because they don't want them and they don't care what happens to them as long as they can earn them money. It's not like they practice every day, if the owner truly cared they could just keep them at home and take them to practice on practice days. Nothing wrong with that, but they don't.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> But many pet owners are the same?


yes they are however this is a thread about racing and not many other pet owners.I hate all people in general that treat animals as throw away objects.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> But many pet owners are the same?


? I disagree with this.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Rott lover said:


> yes they are however this is a thread about racing and not many other pet owners.I hate all people in general that treat animals as throw away objects.


THIS!

I think MANY people who own and keep their animals treat them well. The ones that toss them away I obviously dislike but as said millions of times THIS IS ABOUT THE RACING INDUSTRY not all the other issues in the world.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Sweety said:


> You're preaching to the choir.
> 
> The majority of us here are very pro-rescue and many of us own/have owned or been involved in rescue.
> 
> Collecting rescue dogs isn't quite so romantic as it may appear.


This is old and has already been resolved so I'm not going to comment on it and start more issues


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> ? I disagree with this.


Really? Do you?

Why do we need the RSPCA, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross, Cats Protection League, etc., etc.?

Many, many dogs, kept as pets, are ill treated, abused, starved or neglected and, unfortunately, statistics show that is fact, so the fact that you disagree really shows your lack of any true understanding as far as that situation is concerned.

In England, 45% of all dogs in rescue are Staffies or Staffy crosses. This breed alone has suffered horribly over the past few years.

It isn't only Greyhounds.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Really? Do you?
> 
> Why do we need the RSPCA, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross, Cats Protection League, etc., etc.?
> 
> ...


You misunderstood me and I may have misunderstood that post.

I was saying that in my lifetime, I have met ONE person who abused their dog. I was actually the person to got the dog out of the situation and found her a loving home. Her name is Goldie, she's a cocked spaniel, and she's very happy now.

For the majority of people, at least in my experience, if they own dogs and keep them, they love and care for the dog. I'm not saying that all owners do, but I thought we were speaking of the ones that stay with their families and aren't tossed out.

Obviously I'm aware of the issues with dogs being tossed out, but AGAIN, THIS IS A RACING THREAD. It's just contributing to the problem and it's wrong. Many people don't know about greyhound racing and my aim was to inform. That's all I'm saying.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> ? I disagree with this.


Do you? Why do you disagree? Where do all the dogs in rescue come from? Dogs free to a good home because of job change, baby coming? Change of home? Where are most of the pound dogs from? Where are the cruelty cases? They are all from the greyhound industry. I've been involved in rescue for a long time, most dogs in because pet owners don't care.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Really? Do you?
> 
> Why do we need the RSPCA, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross, Cats Protection League, etc., etc.?
> 
> ...


We have already conquered that answer.This is a thread about RACING GREYHOUNDS!!!!!not about all the other pets of the world.Can we please stay on topic!!!!!

I know we all get upset about all the animals in the world that are abused and if you like i can start a thread on that subject.I know things get heated when comparing one subject to another that we are all compassionate about.Please dont crucify someone for trying to stay on the subject of the thread.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> yes they are however this is a thread about racing and not many other pet owners.I hate all people in general that treat animals as throw away objects.


It might be a thread about racing, but OP keeps making blanket generalisations about racing owners rehoming or PTS, and pet owners are all sweetness and light.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Do you? Why do you disagree? Where do all the dogs in rescue come from? Dogs free to a good home because of job change, baby coming? Change of home? Where are most of the pound dogs from? Where are the cruelty cases? They are all from the greyhound industry. I've been involved in rescue for a long time, most dogs in because pet owners don't care.


God I UNDERSTAND THIS I believe I misunderstood your post because it was quite a blanket statement that most pet owners don't care about their pets and I don't think this is true. I thought you meant just people who owned pets in general, it wasn't clear to me you were talking about people who actually don't care. But anyway, this thread is about greyhound racing for the last time.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Can I just say this will this who keep using their caps lock to get their point over stop it, in the world of the internet it's considered shouting, just because you feel the need to "shout" doesn't make your point carry any more weight.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> God I UNDERSTAND THIS I believe I misunderstood your post because it was quite a blanket statement that most pet owners don't care about their pets and I don't think this is true. I thought you meant just people who owned pets in general, it wasn't clear to me you were talking about people who actually don't care. But anyway, this thread is about greyhound racing for the last time.


You might not think it's true but in my experience it is.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> It might be a thread about racing, but OP keeps making blanket generalisations about racing owners rehoming or PTS, and pet owners are all sweetness and light.


Excuse me but where did I say pet owners are all sweetness and light? It's not fair for you to be accusing me of making blanket statements and turn around and out words into my mouth. I KNOW not all pet owners are good but this is about a whole industry built on greed and buying dogs just to throw them out. It's an industry built on gaining money from the exploitation of animals. That's what I disagree with. The mistreatment of these animals for money. Things keep getting dragged so off topic and it's frustrating because this isn't about the pet population crisis or the rspca or other dogs in need of homes and while I understand that crisis this is another one many don't know about. I wanted to make a thread so people could learn and form opinions and be aware of the dogs many people don't consider.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Rott lover said:


> We have already conquered that answer.This is a thread about RACING GREYHOUNDS!!!!!not about all the other pets of the world.Can we please stay on topic!!!!!
> 
> I know we all get upset about all the animals in the world that are abused and if you like i can start a thread on that subject.I know things get heated when comparing one subject to another that we are all compassionate about.Please dont crucify someone for trying to stay on the subject of the thread.


I agree, this is about racing greyhounds, but it was the OP who stated that she doesn't agree many pet dogs are cruelly treated.

Sorry, but I'm not going to smile and say nothing about that particular statement.

If she wants to keep the thread on subject, she needs to stop making sweeping generalisations about other aspects of dog ownership.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> You might not think it's true but in my experience it is.


I still think you misunderstand but I'm just going to drop it because it's not on topic of this thread


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Excuse me but where did I say pet owners are all sweetness and light? It's not fair for you to be accusing me of making blanket statements and turn around and out words into my mouth. I KNOW not all pet owners are good but this is about a whole industry built on greed and buying dogs just to throw them out. It's an industry built on gaining money from the exploitation of animals. That's what I disagree with. The mistreatment of these animals for money. Things keep getting dragged so off topic and it's frustrating because this isn't about the pet population crisis or the rspca or other dogs in need of homes and while I understand that crisis this is another one many don't know about. I wanted to make a thread so people could learn and form opinions and be aware of the dogs many people don't consider.


Okay so where do you think this over population of dogs come from?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> God I UNDERSTAND THIS I believe I misunderstood your post because it was quite a blanket statement that most pet owners don't care about their pets and I don't think this is true. I thought you meant just people who owned pets in general, it wasn't clear to me you were talking about people who actually don't care. But anyway, this thread is about greyhound racing for the last time.


When you have had a few years working with rescues you may reevaluate that opinion...I used to believe that too.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Sweety said:


> I agree, this is about racing greyhounds, but it was the OP who stated that she doesn't agree many pet dogs are cruelly treated.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not going to smile and say nothing about that particular statement.
> 
> If she wants to keep the thread on subject, she needs to stop making sweeping generalisations about other aspects of dog ownership.


As stated I misunderstood the post. I thought she was speaking of pet owners as a generalized group of anyone that owns a dog. Now I understand what she was saying and I already stated that I understand now and agree.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Okay so where do you think this over population of dogs come from?


This is about racing. I'm not going to comment on any other topic because I feel like a broken record at this point. I know where they come from and I know the crisis and I disagree with it all but this isn't about that it's about racing. If you want to talk about other topics involving animal neglect make another thread.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

OP - can I ask what first hand experience have you had of racing greyhounds and the environment in which they're kept?

You mention working dogs too. What is your personal experience of that?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm not trying to say greyhounds are more neglected than other dogs, I'm not trying to compare two evils, I'm trying to inform people of a side they maybe didn't consider and bring attention to it. It's all terrible and it all needs to stop. Just because it happens in more than one way doesn't mean every way shouldn't end.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> This is about racing. I'm not going to comment on any other topic because I feel like a broken record at this point. I know where they come from and I know the crisis and I disagree with it all but this isn't about that it's about racing. If you want to talk about other topics involving animal neglect make another thread.


And, Here Endeth the First Lesson.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> This is about racing. I'm not going to comment on any other topic because I feel like a broken record at this point. I know where they come from and I know the crisis and I disagree with it all but this isn't about that it's about racing. If you want to talk about other topics involving animal neglect make another thread.


You can't just say that the thread has to stick to what you want it to, welcome to the forum world of debate! Yes the greyhound racing industry is awful, I'd personally love to see it banned, but there are many other types of using dogs for money, and while you think all racing greyhounds are neglected, all racing greyhound owners either rehome or PTS I personally think pet owners are worse and the neglect and using them to turn a profit is far more serious and does receive nearly enough publicity and media space as the greyhound racing industry. Many dogs are kennelled be they pet or working it doesn't mean they aren't loved or they are neglected, I wouldn't kennel dogs or buy from anyone who did buy it doesn't mean they aren't loved and cared for.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I would also like to say that maybe it would be better for you to concentrate on the real cruelty that happens within the industry.
At the moment all I am getting from your posts (I apologise if I am taking this wrong but I say as I see) is your hatred for the dogs being kenneled and you seem to be using that as proof that the owners don't care about their dogs.

For me (and probably many others), the kenneling of the dogs is not proof of any such thing...Many, many working dogs are kenneled, in fact many pet dogs are kenneled too and most will love and care for their dogs

What would be better is if you focus on the live baiting issue, and the fact that some (see I don't use "many" because I have no proof either way) will cut off the dogs ears (to try to remove the tattoo) and dig out the microchip before dumping the dog and that's just the start...there are many other horrid things..


I agree with you that the industry needs to be over hauled...I just can't agree with many of the points that you have raised


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Sweety said:


> OP - can I ask what first hand experience have you had of racing greyhounds and the environment in which they're kept?
> 
> You mention working dogs too. What is your personal experience of that?


I've already stated this all in previous posts but since you insist on coming on here and questioning my motives I guess I'll re state it all!

I've spoke to one training kennel and been to three rescues. The kennel I spoke to kept the greys in small cages stacked two high with hardly enough room to turn around. She stated that they got a blankie to sleep with and got out four times a day for 30 minutes. That's 2 hours out of 24 sitting in a cage.

One of the rescues supported racing because they believe greyhound breed would die out if it weren't for the racing, which I believe is a horrible reason but take it as you will.

The other two told me racers often come to them with injuries that the owner doesn't want to spend money on so they have to deal with the repercussions of racing. If the injury is too bad they are pts. Many come with broken toes or ripped pads but they've seen broken ribs, legs, necks, and spines. Obviously the paralyzed ones have to be pts.

Some greyhounds can't find a home in rescues and are pts. Some are sent for blood donation where they're sucked dry and then euthanized. Some are sent to mills to be used as breeding stock for future competitors. Some find homes, but most do not.

My grandma Lynn owned a dog named Yoda. He herded her sheep and she took good care of him. He got a roof to sleep under and kids to play with him (he was OBSESSIVE about fetch) as well as good food to eat etc. he passed away from old age but she had him since he was 6 months old.

I know three canine police dogs and their owners. The dogs go with them during the day when they're working and they go home with them at night. They are cared for EXTREMELY WELL and viewed as family members. One is a golden the other two are GSDs. The golden lives with another golden who is a retired police dog but it still lives with them and is extremely well cared for. They love that dog and consider it like family.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I would also like to say that maybe it would be better for you to concentrate on the real cruelty that happens within the industry.
> At the moment all I am getting from your posts (I apologise if I am taking this wrong but I say as I see) is your hatred for the dogs being kenneled and you seem to be using that as proof that the owners don't care about their dogs.
> 
> For me (and probably many others), the kenneling of the dogs is not proof of any such thing...Many, many working dogs are kenneled, in fact many pet dogs are kenneled too and most will love and care for their dogs
> ...


I have already stated those things though, but people began comparing it to dogs who are in shelters and things so that's why that point has been repeated so many times. I want to, as I've said, move away from that comparison because it's irrelevant to the thread topic. (The comparison, not the kenneling, but there's othe things to be discussed)


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> In order to make greyhounds have a good life before during and after, it would mean that people who bought and raced them would have to view them as something other than investments and keep them afterwards to ensure they had a home for life, as well as train them or work with trainers instead of just LEAVING THEM with trainers and letting the trainers take care of them and keep them in kennels. It would also mean the banning of culling puppies who aren't competitable, don't sell, or have minor health issues that would otherwise be fine except they can't sell them if they are defected. The people buying them want money, not a problem. Culling is a disgusting practice that will continue where there's money to be made. It would also mean banning the use of perfectly good greyhounds being used to donate blood, sucked dry, and euth'd. It would mean stopping the over breeding so dogs weren't left homeless and euth'd, which would also mean stop sending so many retired racehounds to just be used a breeding stock on puppy farms.
> 
> There's so many flaws and issues with the industry that I really don't see how anyone could support it as is.


Playing Devil's Advocate here, because I know a lot of racing dogs' owners do this, but have you actually talked to the owners about their dogs and how much contact they have them, what they do with their dogs, etc? Or did you read a couple of articles on the Net and decide that must be true?



chickenfoot said:


> The cruel part is the result of euthanasia and the other uses for greyhounds that are inhumane. I understand it completely, and I disagree with it.


Euthanasia is sometimes less cruel than the alternative. Obviously not if done by a bolt gun, but if done genuinely humanely, then there are much worse things in life than an early death.



chickenfoot said:


> Also want to add that regardless of if the nature of betting has changed - the nature of greyhound treatment is still in need of progress. I do not agree with an industry built off of greed and the rehoming / possible euthanasia of perfectly good dogs no matter the reason. You buy a dog, it should be your responsibility to care for it - ESPECIALLY if you're equipped to do so and simply don't view the dog as a pet but a mere investment. If someone came on her and told people they were looking to rehome their dog because it couldn't earn them money in races anymore it would be a huge thread where everyone chewed out that person for treating their dog poorly - so why support the industry built on that kind of behavior?


Who said anything about anyone supporting the industry?



chickenfoot said:


> I got Cosmo on Craigslist.
> 
> Of course I disagree with puppy mills and people who dump dogs, AS SAID BEFORE I DISAGREE WITH THESE THINGS but! This is a thread about greyhound racing. I could make a thread about all of these things but this one is about racing industry.
> 
> ...


Craigslist? You got your dog from Craigslist?

So not a rehoming centre, not a rescue? So, considering you know your dog's DOB, does that mean you supported a BYB?

Pot, meet Kettle.



chickenfoot said:


> Oh ok, I getcha now. That would be marvelous if the greys were treated well. Sitting in kennels with only 4 rotations of 30 minutes is not a fulfilling life imo. That's 2 hours meaning unless they're practicing (which they don't every day) they're sitting in there for 22 hours a day. And after all that may just end up euthanized.


Is that just based on that one clip, or do you have solid evidence that this goes on industry wide?



chickenfoot said:


> THIS!
> 
> I think MANY people who own and keep their animals treat them well. The ones that toss them away I obviously dislike but as said millions of times THIS IS ABOUT THE RACING INDUSTRY not all the other issues in the world.





chickenfoot said:


> You misunderstood me and I may have misunderstood that post.
> 
> I was saying that in my lifetime, I have met ONE person who abused their dog. I was actually the person to got the dog out of the situation and found her a loving home. Her name is Goldie, she's a cocked spaniel, and she's very happy now.
> 
> ...


HA! We wish!

There was a thread recently about an article written by a woman who seemed determined to stir the brown smelly stuff, who admits to deliberately buying puppies, house training them, and at the first sign of any trouble, selling them to the first one who comes asking - even to the point of admitting that she doesn't know who has any of the puppies she was responsible for. At the time the article was written, she had a sighthound who, "If it doesn't stop counter surfing, will probably go the same way as the others".

But that's OK because the puppies are kept in a house and loved - at least until they're sold on.

And may I point you in the direction of our very own Breeding Sub-forum, and a thread entitled "Please Help"? About someone who "adopted" a Rottie from a friend who was "mistreating" her? Got the dog a convenient 2 months before 17 puppies were born. Mum's now in rescue after being handed over by the vet 12kg underweight and the puppies - all 17 of them, died, allegedly of starvation.

But that's OK because the dog was kept in a house, so obviously not a cruel owner.

Then there's all those stories of dogs kept in crates and basically left standing and sitting in their own waste, not walked, hardly even fed, and basically, just forgotten about.

But that's OK because they're in the house, and therefore, cruelty doesn't apply to them, either.

Just because you don't see cruelty first-hand, just because the dogs are locked away behind closed doors, doesn't mean cruelty isn't taking place.

ETA: I've already advised that if you want this to remain about the dog racing industry, keep it to other facts about the dog racing industry. If you're going to mention the fact that the dogs end up in rescues or being rehomed once they retire, it is YOU who are comparing them to other reasons for dogs in rescue, and we therefore have every right to respond like-for-like.

Also, you (just like the rest of us) have no right to tell any of us what to write or how to respond. Just because you've started a thread, doesn't mean you own it and have final say on who says what.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm not saying there aren't horrible racing kennels, I have no doubt there are. But one kennel and 3 rescues out of what have to be thousands? Did you ever learn basic statistics?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You've been to *one* kennel and you want to base the whole industry on it?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> You've been to *one* kennel and you want to base the whole industry on it?


Well no. She spoke to one kennel.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> You've been to *one* kennel and you want to base the whole industry on it?





Nicky10 said:


> I'm not saying there aren't horrible racing kennels, I have no doubt there are. But one kennel and 3 rescues out of what have to be thousands? Did you ever learn basic statistics?


I'm not going to say that I know everything about racing because I don't, but out of the four reliable resources I've spoken to (whether that be rescues or kennels) all of them have told me the horrors of racing. One, while supporting it for the sole reason of keeping the breed alive, still spoke of owners tossing their dogs to them with injuries they didn't want to pay for because they didn't want to lose money on their investment. Which means a suffering dog was shipped to a rescue to be most likely pts. Also remember that rescues deal with SEVERAL racetracks not just one. So this is coming from all sides of the board. Also keep in mind my knowledge is American knowledge. There are only 21 tracks still operating in the U.S. If every rescue I spoke with got dogs from only 3 racetracks each (which I don't know about your area but that's a pretty rough under estimate), that's 12 tracks, which would account for every track in Florida, to give you an idea. So dogs that come from say, every track in Florida, (to give you an idea) come with extreme suffering injuries that owners neglected to take care of because they didn't want to pay for them. Or the dog was simply no longer interested in racing, or they continued to lose.

Which results in a lot of dogs in need of homes, badly injured from racing, or pts, all for money.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Also, no I didn't support a BYB he came from Craigslist and the lady worked graveyard and couldn't keep him. She gave me his breeder contact information and I visited the breeder. She's from a place called scapoose and told me the date he was born and I got to to meet his parents as well as offered his papers which I didn't have any interest in. I got his vet records and got to meet some other Aussies on her property which was huge, her backyard is pretty much a forest. So no, but again where I got my dog is off topic. Like the majority of the post. I agree with a lot of it, but again I think I was misunderstood.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> I'm not going to say that I know everything about racing because I don't, but out of the four reliable resources I've spoken to (whether that be rescues or kennels) all of them have told me the horrors of racing. One, while supporting it for the sole reason of keeping the breed alive, still spoke of owners tossing their dogs to them with injuries they didn't want to pay for because they didn't want to lose money on their investment. Which means a suffering dog was shipped to a rescue to be most likely pts. Also remember that rescues deal with SEVERAL racetracks not just one. So this is coming from all sides of the board. Also keep in mind my knowledge is American knowledge. There are only 21 tracks still operating in the U.S. If every rescue I spoke with got dogs from only 3 racetracks each (which I don't know about your area but that's a pretty rough under estimate), that's 12 tracks, which would account for every track in Florida, to give you an idea. So dogs that come from say, every track in Florida, (to give you an idea) come with extreme suffering injuries that owners neglected to take care of because they didn't want to pay for them. Or the dog was simply no longer interested in racing, or they continued to lose.
> 
> Which results in a lot of dogs in need of homes, badly injured from racing, or pts, all for money.


Do you any knowledge of Ireland?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Late to the party, but I'm another one against racing of any animal to be honest. I DID volunteer work for a short time at a racing kennels/breeding facility when I was about 14 and the dogs were definitely not 'pets'. Although the kennel owners did have their own two dogs - Lurchers, who lived in the house etc. The dogs were not badly treated from what I saw, but it wasn't a fantastic environment either, and one puppy from a litter was PTS rather than sold on to a pet home because it was born with a ( treatable ) leg deformity which prevented it from going on to race apparently. I was very upset when I was told what was happening and begged my mum to take the puppy to no avail  

I saw much worse in the boarding kennels I went on to work at! :Rage


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Do you any knowledge of Ireland?


No absolutely none and like I've stated my experience is solely from America. There's a good reason why it's only legal in 7 U.S. States. I'd love to hear about it though


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No one is saying it doesn't happen...My issue was (and still is) that you can not say that "most" or "many" don't care or neglect their dogs when you have only just dipped your toes into a very large ocean.

I will repeat that whilst these owners may not care in the same capacity as a doting pet owner, that does not automatically equate to them not caring in their own way.

Whilst you have second hand knowledge of owners neglecting and cruelly treating and/or dumping their dogs. I have knowledge of owners that pay hefty prices for their dogs to be seen by vets (including specialist treatment), and have seen dogs being kept for their twilight years in the comfort of their owners sofa.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Also kenneling isn't the only bad thing. Culled puppies, ears being chopped off, blood bank dogs, puppy mills, injuries from race, unregulated kennel conditions, etc are all things to consider


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You're gonna have to explain why dogs acting as blood donors is a bad thing? Especially as greys are considered universal donors.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> But many pet owners are the same?


We know - but this thread was specifically about racing greyhounds


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> No one is saying it doesn't happen...My issue was (and still is) that you can not say that "most" or "many" don't care or neglect their dogs when you have only just dipped your toes into a very large ocean.
> 
> I will repeat that whilst these owners may not care in the same capacity as a doting pet owner, that does not automatically equate to them not caring in their own way.
> 
> Whilst you have second hand knowledge of owners neglecting and cruelly treating and/or dumping their dogs. I have knowledge of owners that pay hefty prices for their dogs to be seen by vets (including specialist treatment), and have seen dogs being kept for their twilight years in the comfort of their owners sofa.


And I have knowledge of owners tossing them out with horrific injuries so that's where we differ, we see two sides of the same spectrum and if it happens so often that three of the different rescues I visited and personally spoke to all told me of horrible things that happen then that's enough for me to think there's a problem and that it needs to be regulated at least or looked into


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


> You're gonna have to explain why dogs acting as blood donors is a bad thing? Especially as greys are considered universal donors.


? These dogs aren't just donating they're giving all they have and being pts. Perfectly good dogs being drained and killed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

chickenfoot said:


> And I have knowledge of owners tossing them out with horrific injuries so that's where we differ, we see two sides of the same spectrum and if it happens so often that three of the different rescues I visited and personally spoke to all told me of horrible things that happen then that's enough for me to think there's a problem and that it needs to be regulated at least or looked into


Rescues do a wonderful job but they're often biased. They're going to see the dogs that get thrown away because they won't run or they're injured, they're not likely to see the good owners.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Sweety said:


> And, Here Endeth the First Lesson.


lol


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> And I have knowledge of owners tossing them out with horrific injuries so that's where we differ, we see two sides of the same spectrum and if it happens so often that three of the different rescues I visited and personally spoke to all told me of horrible things that happen then that's enough for me to think there's a problem and that it needs to be regulated at least or looked into


I am not disputing that the industry needs regulating (at the very least).


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

chickenfoot said:


> ? These dogs aren't just donating they're giving all they have and being pts. Perfectly good dogs being drained and killed.


Proof? Canine blood donation happens here too and they're usually loved pets. A lot of ex-racers are donors because again universal donors


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

I have given my opinions and stated what I believe as well as stated I disagree with the industry. I have felt like a broken record for days now and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I enjoyed the conversation but I feel it's not going anywhere so I will no longer comment on this thread, half because I'm tired of arguing and half because I have to go to work.

Feel free to continue to debate! I've given my side and that's all I can do.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I have given my opinions and stated what I believe as well as stated I disagree with the industry. I have felt like a broken record for days now and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I enjoyed the conversation but I feel it's not going anywhere so I will no longer comment on this thread, half because I'm tired of arguing and half because I have to go to work.
> 
> Feel free to continue to debate! I've given my side and that's all I can do.


Well, I think you have to accept that not only you has an opinion.

It's absolutely fine to give your opinion, but don't get upset when others give theirs.

Such is the nature of a forum.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

[


Lurcherlad said:


> We know - but this thread was specifically about racing greyhounds


If OP insists on making sweeping generalisations about the industry which she admits to knowing very little about other comparisons are going to be made, I wasn't aware that you could only talk about what the OP wanted in threads now and not compare or disagree and give examples of why you disagree!

I might no own an ex racer but I was involved in greyhound rescue here, hard not to be given we have the largest number of racing greyhounds, and again not all owners are cruel and dispose of dogs, just like not all pet owners idolise their dogs!

Most in this thread dislike the industry but rather like those who paint all the show or breeder world with the same brush I'm not going to paint every racing greyhound owner as evil, and believe the only life and best life for dog's is on a sofa!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Well, I think you have to accept that not only you has an opinion.
> 
> It's absolutely fine to give your opinion, but don't get upset when others give theirs.
> 
> Such is the nature of a forum.


I absolutely do accept that and I'm glad other have opinions that differ from mine. That's not my issue, it's the repetitive nature of this thread and how I feel I've stated the same things time and time again. I'm fine with other opinions, it's exhausting to repeat mine over and over and over because it's re asked and re questioned


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> [
> 
> If OP insists on making sweeping generalisations about the industry which she admits to knowing very little about other comparisons are going to be made, I wasn't aware that you could only talk about what the OP wanted in threads now and not compare or disagree and give examples of why you disagree!
> 
> ...


*I don't think the OP actually meant that either, but hey ho *


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> [
> 
> If OP insists on making sweeping generalisations about the industry which she admits to knowing very little about other comparisons are going to be made, I wasn't aware that you could only talk about what the OP wanted in threads now and not compare or disagree and give examples of why you disagree!
> 
> ...


Whoa whoa whoa! No one is saying you aren't allowed to talk about anything that I don't want you to. I just asked that the topic remains about greyhounds and not irrelevant things like where I got my dog. If it can't remain on topic I'm removing myself from the conversation and allowing others to continue because I can't dictate what's said but I'm no longer interested in repeating myself is all. Just as you have the right to have other opinions and say whatever you'd like I have the right to politely remove myself and allow the conversation to go on without me. Everyone knows my stance, so that's over with. It's great that there are other opinions, it's what I wanted. I'm not upset or huffy I'm just removing myself. Sorry if I made generalizations but it's hard for me to ignore what I've personally seen in my experience. I understand if others have seen other things, that's where different opinions come in.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


> Rescues do a wonderful job but they're often biased. They're going to see the dogs that get thrown away because they won't run or they're injured, they're not likely to see the good owners.


You know i never thought of that side of things.Since only the injured and lame and tossed out ones would end up at a rescue it would be very hard by the numbers to compare to the ones kept and cared for in that capacity


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Rott lover said:


> You know i never thought of that side of things.Since only the injured and lame and tossed out ones would end up at a rescue it would be very hard by the numbers to compare to the ones kept and cared for in that capacity


Last thing I'll say is even if there are good owners which I'm sure there are, that still leaves MANY lame racers tossed out which is an issue that needs to be more closely regulated.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Rott lover said:


> You know i never thought of that side of things.Since only the injured and lame and tossed out ones would end up at a rescue it would be very hard by the numbers to compare to the ones kept and cared for in that capacity


It's like the ones that only see the results of bybs and puppyfarms and become convinced all breeders are just like that


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> I*'m not going to say that I know everything about racing because I don't*, but out of the four reliable resources I've spoken to (whether that be rescues or kennels) all of them have told me the horrors of racing. One, while supporting it for the sole reason of keeping the breed alive, still spoke of owners tossing their dogs to them with injuries they didn't want to pay for because they didn't want to lose money on their investment. Which means a suffering dog was shipped to a rescue to be most likely pts. Also remember that rescues deal with SEVERAL racetracks not just one. So this is coming from all sides of the board. Also keep in mind my knowledge is American knowledge. There are only 21 tracks still operating in the U.S. If every rescue I spoke with got dogs from only 3 racetracks each (which I don't know about your area but that's a pretty rough under estimate), that's 12 tracks, which would account for every track in Florida, to give you an idea. So dogs that come from say, every track in Florida, (to give you an idea) come with extreme suffering injuries that owners neglected to take care of because they didn't want to pay for them. Or the dog was simply no longer interested in racing, or they continued to lose.
> 
> Which results in a lot of dogs in need of homes, badly injured from racing, or pts, all for money.


Are these 3 rescues specialist ex-racer rescues, or simply general rescues which take in all sorts of dogs in their catchment area?

And if so, have you discussed the percentage of their dogs that come from the track?

Because if they're generic rescues who simply agree to take in ex-racers too, then the percentage of ex-racers vs owner hand-ins vs strays could be quite telling.



chickenfoot said:


> Also, no I didn't support a BYB he came from Craigslist and the lady worked graveyard and couldn't keep him. She gave me his breeder contact information and I visited the breeder. She's from a place called scapoose and told me the date he was born and I got to to meet his parents as well as offered his papers which I didn't have any interest in. I got his vet records and got to meet some other Aussies on her property which was huge, her backyard is pretty much a forest. So no, but again where I got my dog is off topic. Like the majority of the post. I agree with a lot of it, but again I think I was misunderstood.


Ah!! Even better then...

You got him from someone who got him as a puppy and suddenly realised she didn't have time for him! (Why does that sound familiar?  Oh yeah! Because it's one of the most commonly used reasons for dogs being handed in). And he was even younger than most of the racers that you're so worried about because they're kept in kennels and rehomed really young, so they must be victims of cruelty!

What did the breeder say about you buying him from the woman who bought him from her?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

They were all strictly racing greyhound rescues.

Again! Broken record! Cosmo's background is irrelevant. It doesn't make me a bad person for adopting a puppy who needed a home no matter where he came from. Just because it happened to Cosmo doesn't mean greyhounds don't matter. As I've said a thousand times I was trying to inform people about a different side they may not have considered (racing)

The breeder was angry and told me she wished she had given him back as she agreed she would.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> *I don't think the OP actually meant that either, but hey ho *





chickenfoot said:


> Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Trying to get a point across there, sorry it was so generalizing. All of my experience has been with uncaring owners. I'm sure they exist but as do good pet owners, it doesn't mean there aren't bad apples and those shouldn't be discarded.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

> ="Meezey, post: 1064300018, member: 1358874"]


Fair enough! 

But I think she corrected herself later in the thread.

Anyhoo - this is all getting a bit silly.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

I know personally i have very little in the statistics or numbers and very limited time with the shelters but i have seen first hand people throwing these dogs out like yesterdays trash.I personally heard and seen an owner tell people to "take that useless no winning piece of garbage to the pound and get the next one up here" Just because it lost 3 races in a row.That was several years ago and i dont know if anything has changed since.

I could raise that very same comment in many aspects of life as well.Going off topic i have seen people tie dogs to trees and move out leaving the dog there.I have seen people beating their dogs in plain view on the street corner.I have seen many news stories about horrific things that make me cry.

However staying on subject i have witnessed horrible things at greyhound races and behind the scenes as well.Now my knowledge is before shelters and statistics and only from one race track.However i know what i have seen and have been told that it is pretty much the same at all tracks.It makes me sick to my stomach to think that the majority of these people have no connection with these animals other than money.They don't care where they go or what happens to them.Weather they live or die or weather they get abuse or find a good home.Do i know if they are all that way?no.I can tell you that the majority of them certainly are.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Trying to get a point across there, sorry it was so generalizing. All of my experience has been with uncaring owners. I'm sure they exist but as do good pet owners, it doesn't mean there aren't bad apples and those shouldn't be discarded.


Which is the point I was making, your limited experience is of the negative only side of greyhound racing, there is good, trust me there are a lot of people who keep dogs and don't care for them as pets! They buy pets knowingly from an industry that is in my humble opinion a lot crueler than the racing industry!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Which is the point I was making, your limited experience is of the negative only side of greyhound racing, there is good, trust me there are a lot of people who keep dogs and don't care for them as pets! They buy pets knowingly from an industry that is in my humble opinion a lot crueler than the racing industry!


I don't agree with comparing two cruelties. It's both cruel. Just trying to inform.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> I know personally i have very little in the statistics or numbers and very limited time with the shelters but i have seen first hand people throwing these dogs out like yesterdays trash.I personally heard and seen an owner tell people to "take that useless no winning piece of garbage to the pound and get the next one up here" Just because it lost 3 races in a row.That was several years ago and i dont know if anything has changed since.
> 
> I could raise that very same comment in many aspects of life as well.Going off topic i have seen people tie dogs to trees and move out leaving the dog there.I have seen people beating their dogs in plain view on the street corner.I have seen many news stories about horrific things that make me cry.
> 
> However staying on subject i have witnessed horrible things at greyhound races and behind the scenes as well.Now my knowledge is before shelters and statistics and only from one race track.However i know what i have seen and have been told that it is pretty much the same at all tracks.It makes me sick to my stomach to think that the majority of these people have no connection with these animals other than money.They don't care where they go or what happens to them.Weather they live or die or weather they get abuse or find a good home.Do i know if they are all that way?no.I can tell you that the majority of them certainly are.


And there will be many, many people who have experienced the same as you. The bottom line is that very few racers lead a charmed life - far from it.

Around 8,000 greyhounds are "retired" annually in the UK


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> I don't agree with comparing two cruelties. It's both cruel. Just trying to inform.


I don't agree with ignoring cruely or making out it isn't there when trying to inform! Which was why I commented! It's fine to inform but don't try and make it seem like other cruelty happens less or doesn't really happen at all.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> And there will be many, many people who have experienced the same as you. The bottom line is that very few racers lead a charmed life - far from it.
> 
> Around 8,000 greyhounds are "retired" annually in the UK


I think what bothers me the most is all the people in this world that have no conscious about pets and animals in general and all the killing and abuse amid this planet and i love my pets more than life itself and take very good care of them and vets visits and training and i usually get very little time with them.It just sucks


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> They were all strictly racing greyhound rescues.
> 
> Again! Broken record! Cosmo's background is irrelevant. It doesn't make me a bad person for adopting a puppy who needed a home no matter where he came from. Just because it happened to Cosmo doesn't mean greyhounds don't matter. As I've said a thousand times I was trying to inform people about a different side they may not have considered (racing)
> 
> The breeder was angry and told me she wished she had given him back as she agreed she would.


OK, so do you know the stats regarding the number of dogs they take in and rehome, compared to a general or even breed rescue? Because then we could start to get an idea of how big a problem this actually is.

No, getting Cosmo from Craigslist doesn't make you a bad owner ... You could argue that it does put you on the same line as those who get their dogs from a BYB, but I suppose at least you did contact the breeder, and the breeder (according to what you have said) responded in the way an ethical breeder should.

And just because we talk about other subjects more frequently, doesn't mean any of us are oblivious to what goes on in the racing industry. Given the amount of times you've had to admit that you didn't know something, even just after making a statement as if it were fact, you could actually say we know at least as much as, if not more, than you do.

Possibly because we go away and look at the facts first, or admit what we don't know.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I don't agree with ignoring cruely or making out it isn't there when trying to inform! Which was why I commented! It's fine to inform but don't try and make it seem like other cruelty happens less or doesn't really happen.


? I was ABSOLUTELY not! And I really don't like that you put those kind of accusations on me! I have stated over and over that I ABSOLUTELY disagree with abandoning animals of any sort or of any sort of animal cruelty! I also stated that I misunderstood your post when I countered and I apologized for that. Please don't pin those kind of accusations on someone.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> OK, so do you know the stats regarding the number of dogs they take in and rehome, compared to a general or even breed rescue? Because then we could start to get an idea of how big a problem this actually is.
> 
> No, getting Cosmo from Craigslist doesn't make you a bad owner ... You could argue that it does put you on the same line as those who get their dogs from a BYB, but I suppose at least you did contact the breeder, and the breeder (according to what you have said) responded in the way an ethical breeder should.
> 
> ...


You don't know how I obtained Cosmo or any of that. I asked her where he came from BEFORE I adopted him. I didn't just contact he I VISITED HER. I met her, met her dogs, met Cosmo's parents, and got all of his vet records and was offered his papers. She's a wonderful lady and I take very good care of my dog and took a lot of time and money to be sure my puppy was healthy and came from someone responsible. I didn't just buy him on a whim. It's not fair to tell me things that you don't know about myself and my dog. I will be removing myself from this thread now.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> OK, so do you know the stats regarding the number of dogs they take in and rehome, compared to a general or even breed rescue? Because then we could start to get an idea of how big a problem this actually is.


Couldn't you say that for all aspects of the world.How many dogs are born everyday vs how many are abused or how many go out of a rescue vs how many come in abused and so on.There really is no good out come and we just know it is bad.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> ? I was ABSOLUTELY not! And I really don't like that you put those kind of accusations on me! I have stated over and over that I ABSOLUTELY disagree with abandoning animals of any sort or of any sort of animal cruelty! I also stated that I misunderstood your post when I countered and I apologized for that. Please don't pin those kind of accusations on someone.


Chickenfoot in your first post you stated

"Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day."
*There is a lot of cruely here too a lot of these dogs also don't have a loving owner! *
"I was saying that in my lifetime, I have met ONE person who abused their dog. I was actually the person to got the dog out of the situation and found her a loving home. Her name is Goldie, she's a cocked spaniel, and she's very happy now.

For the majority of people, at least in my experience, if they own dogs and keep them, they love and care for the dog. "
*
No they don't*.

You have a lot more to experience.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Chickenfoot in your first post you stated
> 
> "Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day."
> *There is a lot of cruely here too a lot of these dogs also don't have a loving owner! *
> ...


But in all honesty how can anyone besides themselves say what their experience is?Could some one say they knew my experiences without ever meeting me?It may be in any subject but people all have different experience levels with all sorts of things


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Chickenfoot in your first post you stated
> 
> "Unlike dogs involved in agility, herding, luring, dock diving, hunting, etc - racers don't have a loving owner to care for them at the end of the day."
> *There is a lot of cruely here too a lot of these dogs also don't have a loving owner! *
> ...


I wasn't speaking of the exception. GENERALLY compared to greyhound racers dogs that do things like herding luring dock diving etc have a better outcome and life. That's because those things aren't a whole business built on money. They don't generally view their dogs as piles of cash as greyhounds are viewed. That's what I was saying, not that there are NO dog treated poorly in these situations. Those things aren't built upon greed and that's the difference and it shows through in the overall treatment of the animal. Herding isn't illegal in most states so you have to ask yourself - why is racing?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Also, I misunderstood what you were saying in that other post and I admitted I was wrong for saying that time and time again so that's all I can do


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I dated a guy once who had shares in a racing greyhound. The greyhound was kept in the owners home (allegedly) which sounds great but he told me they gave it beta blockers to prevent it from winning to raise the odds. Needless to say I didn't date him after that.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Fair enough!
> 
> But I think she corrected herself later in the thread.
> 
> Anyhoo - this is all getting a bit silly.


She actually listened to other opinions and took them on board. So unPF like


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> But in all honesty how can anyone besides themselves say what their experience is?Could some one say they knew my experiences without ever meeting me?It may be in any subject but people all have different experience levels with all sorts of things


When your limited to one racing kennel, 3 rescues, heresay and one case of cruelty you can't make comments on all or most in "your experience".


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> When your limited to one racing kennel, 3 rescues, heresay and one case of cruelty you can't make comments on all or most in "your experience".


But if that is all you have in your experience than that is what you have to base your experience off of.If i hadn't had any experience other than that i could not use it and that would leave me to judge off of that experience.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> When your limited to one racing kennel, 3 rescues, heresay and one case of cruelty you can't make comments on all or most in "your experience".


I'm also making judgement from the hundreds of tracks shut down in the USA


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Trying to get a point across there, *sorry it was so generalizing*. All of my experience has been with uncaring owners. I'm sure they exist but as do good pet owners, it doesn't mean there aren't bad apples and those shouldn't be discarded.


Thank you.
That is all I was having issue with, I hate generalising of any form. 

Anyway, back to grey hound racing 

I would love to see a day when all racing (with animals) is banned. Whilst I know there are owners and trainers that do care and will actually pull their animals from a race if they feel the risks are too high, there aren't enough. 
However, I know realistically this won't happen...
All I can hope for is that as betting habits move over to online betting more, meaning more tracks have to close due to not being able to viably stay open


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

In my *oppinion* ................... the greyhound racing industry is cruel.

Off to bed :Yawn:Yawn:Yawn


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> But if that is all you have in your experience than that is what you have to base your experience off of.If i hadn't had any experience other than that i could not use it and that would leave me to judge off of that experience.


My point is you can't judge everything on one experience!

Can't say most Frenchies struggle to breath because I met one that did!

Or I met 1 aggressive Rottweiler so in my experience most Rottweilers are aggressive.

Or all small dogs are yappy because I met one that was!

You can say in your experience this particular Frenchie couldn't breath, people have told me they can't but as I've only met one I can't make that judgement, what are other people's experiences?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> In my *oppinion* ................... the greyhound racing industry is cruel.
> 
> Off to bed :Yawn:Yawn:Yawn


No one is saying it isn't


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> No one is saying it isn't


:Singing:Singing let it go, let it go ........ :Singing:Singing

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

night, night :Kiss


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> My point is you can't judge everything on one experience!
> 
> Can't say most Frenchies struggle to breath because I met one that did!
> 
> ...


But from a personal stand point how can one say that someones experience is wrong.If they experienced it then it is real and true.It may not be right hence a huge debate but to tell someone that their experience is wrong is not the right way to go about things.That would be like me saying that your experience with rotts is wrong.(granted i know that is not true but just for arguments sake and a common thing between us).I wouldn't possibly be able to tell you that in reality since i dont know what your experience is aside from what you wrote on PF.Just like you would not be able to tell me my experience with rotts is wrong for the same reason.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

This is the fun of debates and forums is to find out what things are like all over the world and find information.This is why i love this forum so very much.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> But from a personal stand point how can one say that someones experience is wrong.If they experienced it then it is real and true.It may not be right hence a huge debate but to tell someone that their experience is wrong is not the right way to go about things.That would be like me saying that your experience with rotts is wrong.(granted i know that is not true but just for arguments sake and a common thing between us).I wouldn't possibly be able to tell you that in reality since i dont know what your experience is aside from what you wrote on PF.Just like you would not be able to tell me my experience with rotts is wrong for the same reason.


I don't think I did say what their experience was wrong, I did say it was limited, and they need more! Their comment that most pet owners loved their pets and most working dogs have loving owners is incorrect which they will find out with more experience.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I don't think I did say what their experience was wrong, I did say it was limited, and they need more! Their comment that most pet owners loved their pets and most working dogs have loving owners is incorrect which they will find out with more experience.


But those are things I apologized for putting generalizations on already. You just refuse to accept the apologies. :/


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Rott lover said:


> But from a personal stand point how can one say that someones experience is wrong.If they experienced it then it is real and true.It may not be right hence a huge debate but to tell someone that their experience is wrong is not the right way to go about things.That would be like me saying that your experience with rotts is wrong.(granted i know that is not true but just for arguments sake and a common thing between us).I wouldn't possibly be able to tell you that in reality since i dont know what your experience is aside from what you wrote on PF.Just like you would not be able to tell me my experience with rotts is wrong for the same reason.


Who's saying whose experience is wrong? 

From where I'm sitting, all we're saying is don't tar everyone with the same brush.

However, I have done what @chickenfoot so far has failed to do, and found some statistics:

Between 2008 and 2015 in USA, over 5 states (2 States don't publish injuries, one of which is Florida, however minimal information has been found and included), there were 11,195 greyhound injuries and 755 deaths (including euthanasia). These are the stats for injuries/deaths as a result of racetrack activity (or so I believe from the link). Of those numbers, the minimal evidence from Florida states that 199 greyhound injuries were reported and 137 dogs died or were euthanised as a result.

Reported cases of cruelty: 24, ranging from flea infestations to failure to provide adequate vet care and from neglect to unnecessary suffering.

More information can be found here (under Factsheet) http://www.grey2kusa.org/about/index.html

Also, here's a list of international Greyhound rescues, including how many dogs are available, and how many have been adopted:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/adoption.htm


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> But those are things I apologized for putting generalizations on already. You just refuse to accept the apologies. :/


I haven't refused to accept them? Thank you for your apology!

I was merely responding to Rott Lover's comments about experience, I've never said yours was wrong, you have experienced what you have experienced that's not in dispute, and I don't disagree with experience you have, which is what I was trying to explain to Rott lover, my only issue was the original statements! You will have a great many experiences, I hope most remain positive for you.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Who's saying whose experience is wrong?
> 
> From where I'm sitting, all we're saying is don't tar everyone with the same brush.
> 
> ...


Grey2k is a great source. Thank you.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> I wasn't speaking of the exception. GENERALLY compared to greyhound racers dogs that do things like herding luring dock diving etc have a better outcome and life. That's because those things aren't a whole business built on money. They don't generally view their dogs as piles of cash as greyhounds are viewed. That's what I was saying, not that there are NO dog treated poorly in these situations. Those things aren't built upon greed and that's the difference and it shows through in the overall treatment of the animal. Herding isn't illegal in most states so you have to ask yourself - why is racing?


So herding and dock diving are free, are they? I believe earlier, you mentioned agility in comparison with racing too? I do know that agility training, equipment and competitions are.definitely NOT free! (@Meezey, not shouting, on mobile and there's no italics option, at least not in Quick Reply). Even basic obedience training is at least £2 a week ... Or was, when I took Max. Certainly not free.



chickenfoot said:


> Grey2k is a great source. Thank you.


Still, those stats are a drop in the ocean compared to other rescue stats. Just over 11,000 injuries reported in an 8 year period is really small, especially given that these are over 5 states.

A problem that needs addressing? Yes, certainly. No one is saying otherwise, but if I were to compare that to the stats on "status" dogs...? Can't, because it's the middle of the night here, I'm on my mobile, I'm tired and cba to go looking for more stats, but I'd bet the grey stats would pale in comparison to something like the staffy problem here.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> So herding and dock diving are free, are they? I believe earlier, you mentioned agility in comparison with racing too? I do know that agility training, equipment and competitions are.definitely NOT free! (@Meezey, not shouting, on mobile and there's no italics option, at least not in Quick Reply). Even basic obedience training is at least £2 a week ... Or was, when I took Max. Certainly not free.
> 
> Still, those stats are a drop in the ocean compared to other rescue stats. Just over 11,000 injuries reported in an 8 year period is really small, especially given that these are over 5 states.
> 
> A problem that needs addressing? Yes, certainly. No one is saying otherwise, but if I were to compare that to the stats on "status" dogs...? Can't, because it's the middle of the night here, I'm on my mobile, I'm tired and cba to go looking for more stats, but I'd bet the grey stats would pale in comparison to something like the staffy problem here.


Never did I say it was free. I meant those dogs are used for more than just profit, that's where I was bringing the money portion into it.

Like I said time and time again this is about greyhound racing not other forms of abuse. I'm not going to compare two evils and I have stated over and over that I disagree with it all.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

I have a solution. All betting should be moved to Canicross Racing. Then the owner has to go through exactly what the dog goes through. I wouldn't bet your house on me though. Not until I get my home-made full blood transfusion system working anyway... I'm not sure it's what Hozelock had in mind.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> Never did I say it was free. I meant those dogs are used for more than just profit, that's where I was bringing the money portion into it.
> 
> Like I said time and time again this is about greyhound racing not other forms of abuse. I'm not going to compare two evils and I have stated over and over that I disagree with it all.


So, basically, you're just not very good at saying what you mean.

And yes, this thread is about greyhound racing, but the statistics on greyhound racing compared to other stats has proven to be relatively small; so, while a problem that needs to be addressed ... It is NOT a massive one!!

And, once again, just because you start a thread, doesn't mean you have a right to dictate what is said, which, with your constant reminders about the fact that is is a racing thread, is what you are trying to do. You have no right to do that.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> So, basically, you're just not very good at saying what you mean.
> 
> And yes, this thread is about greyhound racing, but the statistics on greyhound racing compared to other stats has proven to be relatively small; so, while a problem that needs to be addressed ... It is NOT a massive one!!
> 
> And, once again, just because you start a thread, doesn't mean you have a right to dictate what is said, which, with your constant reminders about the fact that is is a racing thread, is what you are trying to do. You have no right to do that.


Besides, comparing greyhound racing stats to national average stats IS discussing grey racing.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Never did I say it was free. I meant those dogs are used for more than just profit, that's where I was bringing the money portion into it.
> 
> Like I said time and time again this is about greyhound racing not other forms of abuse. I'm not going to compare two evils and I have stated over and over that I disagree with it all.


To be fair..some people will be just as motivated to abuse dogs (or any animal) for the bragging rights of a certain coloured ribbon 
Unfortunately bringing money into the equation doesn't really change much, apart from the fact that due to the level of money involved it will be harder to get the gen publics perception to change...Although slowly but surely people's views are changing 

For me greyhounds are no more abused than other species that us humans have used for our own needs and gains...now I am not saying that greys don't matter because of the other atrocities, I am just saying that you can not compare (and you have throughout the thread) the different industries...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Wow, is this still going on!

I am going to say something which might not be agreed with by many.

Greyhounds are bred for racing. The dogs that race would not exist if there was no racing tracks. When they have finished what they were bred for they are most often killed. It is very sad but so long as they have a good life is it actually wrong. Just because most of us keep dogs as pets it does not mean the ones that are not kept as pets are cruelly treated, just treated differently.

Most on here eat meat. I am a farmer. We rear cattle for beef. We look after our animals, we are fond of them, most of them have names - but once they have finished growing I am afraid they do what they were destined for and are killed.

Apart from our knee jerk action because we have our dogs as pets is there actually a difference.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Wow, is this still going on!
> 
> I am going to say something which might not be agreed with by many.
> 
> ...


If the greyhounds that are bred for racing never existed, would that really matter? Would they prefer not to have been born at all, rather than live a brief, unhappy life and then be killed (and not always humanely)? And the point of this thread was because the general consensus seems to be that most of them don't have a good life. Just because they are bred for a purpose, doesn't make it ok IMO.

Greyhound racing is entertainment so I don't think greyhounds can be compared to animals reared for meat IMO.

(Is it therefore ok to breed dogs to use as bait? They are bred for a purpose, also "entertainment" and if they weren't going to be ripped to shreds by fighting dogs, they wouldn't have been born, so it must be ok? Better to exist, for a short life of misery and suffering, than never to be born at all?

The greyhound breed would still exist if racing stopped tomorrow, as there are people who will want them but have no interest in racing. Even if the breed did die out, is that so terrible?

There are plenty of other breeds to choose from, after all.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> The greyhound breed would still exist if racing stopped tomorrow, as there are people who will want them but have no interest in racing. *Even if the breed did die out, is that so terrible? *
> 
> There are plenty of other breeds to choose from, after all.


I think it would be terrible if the breed died out.
Greyhounds are magnificent dogs in many ways, and I think it would be a real shame to see their demise.
Yes, there are people who want to have greyhounds who have no interest in them racing and as long as they can let their dogs run I see no problem with that.
But as I've said before, Greyhound racing doesn't have to be bad and the dogs could be well looked after too. 
When any dog races it can be dangerous for the dog, but to stop a dog racing (or chasing) because of possible dangers (rather than trying to address some of those dangers) is, imo, not the answer.

The OP seems to thank that because greyhound racing is done for profit that makes it bad, but there are ways to address this: either you let greyhounds take part in lure racing meetings or simply find them places to run free; and the other way is to make greyhound racing for profit concentrate on the greyhound's welfare first rather than the profit and the punter. Either way I think is acceptable and not impossible to achieve.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

silvi said:


> I think it would be terrible if the breed died out.
> Greyhounds are magnificent dogs in many ways, and I think it would be a real shame to see their demise.
> Yes, there are people who want to have greyhounds who have no interest in them racing and as long as they can let their dogs run I see no problem with that.
> But as I've said before, Greyhound racing doesn't have to be bad and the dogs could be well looked after too.
> ...


It would be a shame if the breed died out, but if the only choice is that versus the racing industry as it is today - I'd choose "lose the breed".

I know of a number of greyhounds that can run free with no issues - and if all future greyhounds had never been "trained" to chase, perhaps more of them could. (I understand the breed traits, but that isn't the only factor.)

There are many breeds of dogs that are not allowed to do what they were bred for - are they, therefore, all unhappy?

Greyhound racing doesn't have to be bad - but the reality IMO is that it is and I don't see any viable way of ensuring that it isn't in the future TBH.

I believe the Otterhound is the most vulnerable breed in the UK, in terms of numbers. Presumably, because we no longer hunt otters. If that breed dies out - would it be such a loss? To the lovers of that breed, yes but in general? Surely anyone who fancies owning that breed could find something similar among the other breeds, especially as they wouldn't need it to hunt otters?

Soz: typo - I obviously mean we no long HUNT otters!


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't think we would 'lose the breed' if the racing industry stopped. The greyhound is one of the oldest breeds and has been around for thousands of years. All them years ago they were not used for racing - as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong?)
A lot of breeds have lost their purpose they were bred for and still exist.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

XemzX said:


> I don't think we would 'lose the breed' if the racing industry stopped. The greyhound is one of the oldest breeds and has been around for thousands of years. All them years ago they were not used for racing - as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong?)
> A lot of breeds have lost their purpose they were bred for and still exist.


True and there are some that have vanished.

Here are 10 notable breeds that have apparently become extinct.
*African Hairless Dog*
This breed is thought to be entwined in many hairless breeds today, including the popular Chinese Crested dog.
*Blue Paul Terrier*
Theories suggest that, after being crossed heavily with American Pit Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers, the Blue Paul has evolved into those breeds.
*Cordoba fighting dog*
*Kuri*
Kuri was a domesticated dog, a companion, and also source of fur and meat.
*Paisley Terrier*
This small dog resembles today's Yorkshire Terrier.
*St. John's Water Dog*
*Southern Hound*
When tastes migrated toward the faster sport of fox hunting, this methodical and deliberate tracker frustrated hunters, who began crossing their dogs with speedier canines. The Southern Hound led to the development of subsequent scent hounds, including the Foxhound, Bloodhound, and Beagle.
*Turnspit dog*
The Turnspit gives new meaning to the label "working dog." Small with short legs, this dog ran on a wheel that rotated a spit in the fireplace.
*Tweed Water Spaniel*
*White English Terrier*
The breed was plagued by health problems and deafness, and died out in the early 20th century. Having been crossbred with the English Bulldog, the White English Terrier is thought to have given rise to the Boston Terrier and Bull Terrier.

Are any of these breeds sorely missed?

Apart from the people who are passionate advocates for a particular breed, is it that big of a deal, especially as adequate alternatives exist in most cases? Don't think we have any requirement today for the Cordoba or the Turnspit do we?


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> True and there are some that have vanished.
> 
> Here are 10 notable breeds that have apparently become extinct.
> *African Hairless Dog*
> ...


Wow never heard of some of those breeds and the poor turnspit - what a weird job! 
I admit I don't know a great deal about loss of breeds but I just cant imagine ever losing the greyhound given its history and the amount of people passionate about the breed. We have only had our grey two weeks but the amount of people we have met who love the breed and are devoted to them is immense. Though I suppose this could be said for any breed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Not much use for turnspits no, but the glen of imaal terrier is still around and that was part of their job. They're even undergoing somewhat of a surge in numbers

Few poodles work as gundogs anymore but they're not going anywhere fast


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Otterhounds are one of the rarer breeeds yes but they have a lot going against them. They're big, shaggy, messy and have a huge bark. Greyhounds make a much more appealing house pet.

They are however adorable in person having had otterhound cuddles


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> If the greyhounds that are bred for racing never existed, would that really matter? Would they prefer not to have been born at all, rather than live a brief, unhappy life and then be killed (and not always humanely)? And the point of this thread was because the general consensus seems to be that most of them don't have a good life. Just because they are bred for a purpose, doesn't make it ok IMO.
> 
> Greyhound racing is entertainment so I don't think greyhounds can be compared to animals reared for meat IMO.
> 
> ...


Of course they should not lead an unhappy life but the brevity of their life does not matter to them. If the argument is that they are treated badly., and I do not count being kenneled or raced as being treated badly, then of course that should not happen. But I do not think the argument stands up purely because they are kenneled and have a short life. A short happy life as a racer would be preferable to a long unhappy life that some pets have to endure.
I probably know even less about greyhound racing than the OP but I have not seen a lot on here that tells me that the majority of racing greyhounds are treated cruelly. If they are then things need to change and fast.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2015)

silvi said:


> I think it would be terrible if the breed died out.
> Greyhounds are magnificent dogs in many ways, and I think it would be a real shame to see their demise.
> Yes, there are people who want to have greyhounds who have no interest in them racing and as long as they can let their dogs run I see no problem with that.
> But as I've said before, Greyhound racing doesn't have to be bad and the dogs could be well looked after too.
> ...


These are all things that I think would be marvelous so I don't know why people seem to think that I hate the RACING portion? I have already stated if greyhounds were cared for better and precautions were taken to minimize injury and they weren't kept in cages and shafted away to be killed at the end of it all then I think racing would be great! It's something they love to do and it's something people love to watch. I just want them to end up getting the nice end of the stick for all their work instead of being used and tossed out.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Of course they should not lead an unhappy life but the brevity of their life does not matter to them. If the argument is that they are treated badly., and I do not count being kenneled or raced as being treated badly, then of course that should not happen. But I do not think the argument stands up purely because they are kenneled and have a short life. A short happy life as a racer would be preferable to a long unhappy life that some pets have to endure.
> I probably know even less about greyhound racing than the OP but I have not seen a lot on here that tells me that the majority of racing greyhounds are treated cruelly. If they are then things need to change and fast.


You also have to keep in mind that there are other demons going on in the industry that don't involve the dogs at all. While it is illegal, it's estimated 300+ live animals are brought into the U.S. each WEEK to be used as live baiting where their legs are broke and they are tied to wires immense pain, crying out to entice the dogs and then being ripped to shreds by them in the end.

More regulation is certainly needed


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> The greyhound breed would still exist if racing stopped tomorrow, as there are people who will want them but have no interest in racing. Even if the breed did die out, is that so terrible?
> 
> There are plenty of other breeds to choose from, after all.


Very small registration numbers of Greyhounds none of the hounds have high breed registration with the KC but yearly registration has been consistent over last 10 years or so for greys, think it would do the breed a favour if the sport died out, but then we'd have people yapping about how none working breeders destroyed the breed! Not sure about IKC registration, see quite a few at IKC shows!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> True and there are some that have vanished.
> 
> Here are 10 notable breeds that have apparently become extinct.
> *African Hairless Dog*
> ...


I'd say if we had owned the breeds and were involved with them in our life time they would be sorely missed!


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2015)

Greyhounds aren't going to die out as a breed. There are tons of breeders who breed non-racing GHs who have no connection to the racing world whatsoever. A friend of mine is one of the top GH breeders in the US, and her dogs are also in many European bloodlines of greys that do not race either.
Other than lure coursing for fun of course


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Not much use for turnspits no, but the glen of imaal terrier is still around and that was part of their job. They're even undergoing somewhat of a surge in numbers
> 
> Few poodles work as gundogs anymore but* they're not going anywhere fas*t


No pun intended, of course?  

I'll get me coat. :Sorry


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

I worked at racing kennels for a few years as a teen so I will give you my thoughts and opinions, but tomorrow as I'm going to bed now.  night


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Never did I say it was free. I meant those dogs are used for more than just profit, that's where I was bringing the money portion into it.
> 
> Like I said time and time again this is about greyhound racing not other forms of abuse. I'm not going to compare two evils and I have stated over and over that I disagree with it all.


I completely agree that those other activities you mentioned tend to be done more for the love of the dogs and for fun. Take agility for example. Dogs can compete in that until old age, but in racing about the oldest competitive dogs you get are five-years-old.

I cannot agree with those that are saying that no one on this thread is being supportive of the industry. I myself said that there are trainers who hand their dogs over to be rehomed. However, as I said, those trainers (despite trying to ensure a positive future for their dogs) still support an industry where the very nature of it means that dogs can easily suffer horrific injuries. They might say they love them and keep them in the lap of luxury, but do they care so much as to not put them at such a high risk of injury? There are also others who (in a round about way of defending it) say that compared to other cases of cruelty towards dogs that racing 'pales in comparison'. There is also one reply here from a certain member that doesn't really surprise me.

You cannot rely on statistics put out by the industry either as proven by that investigation by the New Zealand current affairs show. They filmed a dog breaking a leg during a race and he was taken away and killed. Yet that dog is officially listed as 'retired'. As I also said before the GBGB will NOT make any sort of injury and death data available to the public despite being asked a number of times to do so. What exactly does that say to you?

This is also from Grey2KUSA and it makes for grim reading. UK Report.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

XemzX said:


> I did not know a lot of this. Your going to have me in tears!  To think that my sweet Jonesy could have ended up like that and that many dogs like him are used and abused like that. Greys are such sweet, lovely natured dogs. Humans can be so cruel.
> Your dogs are beautiful btw


Thank you very much. I love my doggies! 

The whole damned subject infuriates me. Greyhound racing is one of the most cruel 'sports' there is and in many aspects it is no better than dog fighting yet that has been outlawed. As I said before things really need to change or it needs to be banned outright.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> To get back on topic, these are very bleak facts that furthers my argument of why you shouldn't support the Industry. Thank you for the information


You are welcome.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I completely agree that those other activities you mentioned tend to be done more for the love of the dogs and for fun. Take agility for example. Dogs can compete in that until old age, but in racing about the oldest competitive dogs you get are five-years-old.
> 
> I cannot agree with those that are saying that no one on this thread is being supportive of the industry. I myself said that there are trainers who hand their dogs over to be rehomed. However, as I said, those trainers (despite trying to ensure a positive future for their dogs) still support an industry where the very nature of it means that dogs can easily suffer horrific injuries. They might say they love them and keep them in the lap of luxury, but do they care so much as to not put them at such a high risk of injury? There are also others who (in a round about way of defending it) say that compared to other cases of cruelty towards dogs that racing 'pales in comparison'. There is also one reply here from a certain member that doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> ...


:Jawdrop :Jawdrop Mother always told me if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all, and I'm a "good girl" so I'm following her advice and leaving this thread now. :Meh :Muted


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I completely agree that those other activities you mentioned tend to be done more for the love of the dogs and for fun. Take agility for example. Dogs can compete in that until old age, but in racing about the oldest competitive dogs you get are five-years-old.
> 
> I cannot agree with those that are saying that no one on this thread is being supportive of the industry. I myself said that there are trainers who hand their dogs over to be rehomed. However, as I said, those trainers (despite trying to ensure a positive future for their dogs) still support an industry where the very nature of it means that dogs can easily suffer horrific injuries. They might say they love them and keep them in the lap of luxury, but do they care so much as to not put them at such a high risk of injury? There are also others who (in a round about way of defending it) say that compared to other cases of cruelty towards dogs that racing 'pales in comparison'. There is also one reply here from a certain member that doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> ...


THIS THIS THIS.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

XemzX said:


> Wow never heard of some of those breeds and the poor turnspit - what a weird job!
> I admit I don't know a great deal about loss of breeds but I just cant imagine ever losing the greyhound given its history and the amount of people passionate about the breed. *We have only had our grey two weeks but the amount of people we have met who love the breed and are devoted to them is immense. Though I suppose this could be said for any breed*.


Absolutely! They do seem to be addictive from what I see on Greyhound Walks, and they often come in multiples!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Not much use for turnspits no, but the glen of imaal terrier is still around and that was part of their job. They're even undergoing somewhat of a surge in numbers
> 
> Few poodles work as gundogs anymore but they're not going anywhere fast


So, just because their original job lessens or disappears, the breed can remain popular or in good numbers at least? Precisely why I don't think the demise of the racing would automatically lead to the demise of the greyhound. A massive reduction in the breeding of them would IMO be a good thing for dogs and their welfare in general.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> So, just because their original job lessens or disappears, the breed can remain popular or in good numbers at least? Precisely why I don't think the demise of the racing would automatically lead to the demise of the greyhound. A massive reduction in the breeding of them would IMO be a good thing for dogs and their welfare in general.


Even if it did, which I REALLY don't think it would, I'd rather see happy greyhounds than used greyhounds who only get to experience short lives for human profit.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I'd say if we had owned the breeds and were involved with them in our life time they would be sorely missed!


OK - change that to: if the breed died out would it be a disaster in the great scheme of things?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I completely agree that those other activities you mentioned tend to be done more for the love of the dogs and for fun. Take agility for example. Dogs can compete in that until old age, but in racing about the oldest competitive dogs you get are five-years-old.
> 
> I cannot agree with those that are saying that no one on this thread is being supportive of the industry. I myself said that there are trainers who hand their dogs over to be rehomed. However, as I said, those trainers (despite trying to ensure a positive future for their dogs) still support an industry where the very nature of it means that dogs can easily suffer horrific injuries. They might say they love them and keep them in the lap of luxury, but do they care so much as to not put them at such a high risk of injury? There are also others who (in a round about way of defending it) say that compared to other cases of cruelty towards dogs that racing 'pales in comparison'. There is also one reply here from a certain member that doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> ...


Well lookie here wouldn't be like you to twist things people say, in every thread you join which are thankfully few and far between. Just because people discuss other cruelty doesn't mean they are in a round about way supporting the racing industry. Do you ever sit back and wonder why any thread your involved in turns out the way it does  on that note no further comment on this thread.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Well lookie here wouldn't be like you to twist things people say, in every thread you join which are thankfully few and far between. Just because people discuss other cruelty doesn't mean they are in a round about way supporting the racing industry. Do you ever sit back and wonder why any thread your involved in turns out the way it does  on that note no further comment on this thread.


I'd like to say that this is extremely rude and she made a valid point in saying what she did. Someone that's willing to argue so fiercely in favor of something that one may consider horrendous is a perfectly good reason to think that they support something, even if it's not directly. I certainly feel that way, and have throughout this thread. It's confusing for one to say that they don't support something at all, while also saying they don't know enough about it to not support it. Personally I don't know a TON about it, but what I do know about it I disagree with. It seems to me that some people on this thread don't know anything about it but are defending it by doing things like making comparisons to greyhounds and their farm animals, saying they're cared for but are ultimately killed after their purpose is used up. (I also don't agree with the meat industry so I'm biased in that way but this is an example.) Also by saying other dogs are kenneled, so it's not that bad. Or by saying that money is won in other doggy activities, so it's not that bad is it?

I have continuously said that my aversions are because its an industry that, for the mass majority, does the following : over breeds dogs, purchases one of those overbred dogs and generally views them as an investment, doesn't own the dog and sends it to kennels to be trained, kennel keeps dog in crate for about 22 hours a day, dog races and puts its life on the line due to poor regulation of accidents and injuries, dog who is injured badly is euth'd, dog who is injured minimally like a broken leg which could otherwise be fixes is also usually euth'd, dogs who "make it" and retire are sent to rescues because owner doesn't generally keep them where they spend more time in kennels, dogs who don't get adopted are euth'd, and dogs who do get adopted are lucky.

I trust LurcherGreyhoundGirl because she owns greyhounds and has worked more closely with the breed and the industry than many of us have. She brings out good points and states facts from good sources. It's not fair of you to attack her by accusing her of ruining threads just by being apart of them. That's rude and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Someone that's willing to argue so fiercely in favor of something that one may consider horrendous is a perfectly good reason to think that they support something, even if it's not directly.


I haven't followed this thread that closely, but I sure haven't seen anyone arguing in favor of greyhound racing. I think the only argument is, if you're going to oppose something, do it honestly and based on supportable facts, otherwise you're just feeding in the arguments of those who really do support racing.

To bring in another contentious example... It frustrates me when people argue against shock collars by saying they don't work. The truth is, shock collars very often do work, and they work very well. So arguing with someone who uses shock collars successfully that they don't work is in no way going to persuade them to go a different route. Instead, it only makes you look like an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about at best, and at worst it makes you look like you're deliberately lying to try and persuade people. Neither of which is going to get anyone listening to you.

In this thread I have seen a lot of arguments against racing - using other disciplines - that are simply naive, untrue, and don't sound very informed. That's may work in an audience who is equally uninformed, but it won't work on here since PF members tend to be a little more sophisticated than your average pet owner. So either improve your arguments, avoid generalized, sweeping statements and improve your knowledge, or accept that people are going to find the holes in your arguments and point them out. Not because they support racing, but because what they are hearing they know to not be true.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Right I'm back! I haven't read all the posts because I was super tired last night but I did read the majority of them. I worked at a greyhound kennels for 4 years as a teen so it's safe to say I have some knowledge about it from first hand experience. 

First off Owners....when people say all of them are in it for profit/investment must not have much of a clue about how kennels work. These people don't just buy a dog and plonk it into a kennels and watch it run, there are kennel bills just like boarding a dog. Yes a greyhound running contributes to that bill but unless you have a dog that wins often you are always going to have to cover the difference because the fee a dog gets for simply being in a race won't cover it.
When a dog is injured they obviously don't run for a while and the owner still has to pay a kennel bill.
A bitch in season doesn't run and depending on the track I think we had to wait 4 weeks until grading them back on so an owner buys a bitch knowing that for at least 2 months a year there will be no contribution to their kennel bill. At our kennels we didn't grade them back on for about 8 weeks if they'd been in season. 
Maybe they can bet on them to earn money? Again there are no guarantees that a dog is going to win, on paper a dog might look like a sure bet but it all depends on how that dog gets out of the traps, whether it can win from behind or whether another dog cuts it off. Regardless of whether this owner bets, win or lose the kennel bill still gets paid.

All in all unless you have a top Open Racer chances are you aren't going to make much money if any at all, and generally these top open racers cost thousands of pounds to buy so these owners are hardly hard up for cash in the first place.

Next how caring are owners? I can't speak for 100% of owners, only ones I have come into contact with and our kennels had good owners but I'm not naive enough to think that EVERY owner out there's is the same. We had owners take dogs home to live with them after retirement others retired them to the RGT or another shelter but they always gave a good donation to whoever took them on. 
We had a couple of broken hocks in my 4 years which were fixed. Some of our owners asked to stroke their dog after every race and loved hearing stories about how mischievous their dogs were at the kennels.

Next there was a list of things that happen to these dogs somewhere. 
I've never known or heard of a dog having nails in its muzzle to shut it up and if I did the person responsible might get a nail in theirs too, dogs generally don't bark excessively, ours barked in a morning when they heard you turn up for work until they were let out and had their breakfast, then they were quiet until their next feed where they barked again. The only other time they barked was when they were getting ready to go racing. These dogs know their routine and once they've been fed you can do whatever else needs to be done like changing beds, grooming, nail clipping, checking them over without much noise at all.

Going to the track 4 times a week all the time I worked there I never saw one time where a dog has run into the traps.

We pulled dogs out of races many times after they've come into season or seemed off colour at the kennels. 

We had race meetings abandoned because of bad fog, torrential rain and after bad snow.

In life there are good and bad people! There are plenty of normal pet owners who make me sick, you only have to watch an episode of Dog Rescuers to realise how much scum we share the planet with. I'd much rather see a greyhound living in a kennels getting walked, nails trimmed and fed every day than a dog living in a house with a comfy sofa starving to death and getting beaten on a daily basis.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I haven't followed this thread that closely, but I sure haven't seen anyone arguing in favor of greyhound racing. I think the only argument is, if you're going to oppose something, do it honestly and based on supportable facts, otherwise you're just feeding in the arguments of those who really do support racing.
> 
> To bring in another contentious example... It frustrates me when people argue against shock collars by saying they don't work. The truth is, shock collars very often do work, and they work very well. So arguing with someone who uses shock collars successfully that they don't work is in no way going to persuade them to go a different route. Instead, it only makes you look like an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about at best, and at worst it makes you look like you're deliberately lying to try and persuade people. Neither of which is going to get anyone listening to you.
> 
> In this thread I have seen a lot of arguments against racing - using other disciplines - that are simply naive, untrue, and don't sound very informed. That's may work in an audience who is equally uninformed, but it won't work on here since PF members tend to be a little more sophisticated than your average pet owner. So either improve your arguments, avoid generalized, sweeping statements and improve your knowledge, or accept that people are going to find the holes in your arguments and point them out. Not because they support racing, but because what they are hearing they know to not be true.


All of the things I have stated do happen a lot, at least in America, and you can read about it here if you'd like.

http://www.grey2kusa.org/index.php

I'd also like to point out that many websites FOR racing still reveal bleak truths. Like this website, that - while it's obviously going to paint it in a pretty light - states some bleak things such as the following statement:

"Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."

"unsuitable for racing" means a wide array of things, including injury, lack of interest, birth defect that would otherwise be fine had they not been bred for racing, or unable to win competitions. Should dogs be dying over these things? I don't personally think so.

Also this is put blatantly on there as well, which is a bit like those sweeping generalizations you're speaking of.

"Even if every greyhound were adopted after retirement, the animal rights movement would still oppose greyhound racing, because they oppose all animal use, no matter how humane or beneficial to society."

Uh no? Hello, me as a person involved in the animal rights movement, would LOVE racing if only it was actually humane and beneficial to society! Not really fair to make that kind of blanket statement is it?

Also this:

"The animal rights movement has never been successful in banning greyhound racing in a state where the sport actually exists. In areas where people are unfamiliar with the sport, and there is no industry presence to educate the public, it's easy for extreme animal rights groups to misrepresent the facts."

This is false, as there were three tracks that operated and "actually existed" got closed down in my area and obviously my area is not the only area and again, it's only legal in 7 states as of today.... Hm.

Also:

"Often, people are led to believe these campaigns are about animal welfare, but in fact that's not the case. These groups oppose all animal use, whether it's for food, clothing, medical research, entertainment or any other purpose. The same people who oppose greyhound racing think it's wrong to eat a hamburger, wear a leather jacket or go to the zoo."

In this one they're making more blanket statements as well as trying to suggest that it's not right for vegans or vegetarians to support what they believe, or for people to not support using animal skin as fashion. Or people who think putting wildlife in cages is wrong (I personally believe that zoos can do wonders for the benefit of wildlife re population, but this is such a blanket statement about all animal rights people!)

KEEP IN MIND THIS IS THE GREYHOUND RACING ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA'S WEBSITE. Not just any website. The information sounds a tad bit biased and blanket, don't you think?

Here's the site if you're interested: http://www.gra-america.org/media_kit/press/mediakit.html

I understand where you're coming from, but I also am saying that from my point of view its DIFFICULT to not view some to be fighting for it rather than against it. I know it may not realistically be that they support it, but from my standpoint it's hard not to think that way from the arguments going on. Again, not that anyone actually is.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

As you say, CavalierOwner, that was your experience in one job, at one kennels.

If the owners of racing greyhounds are very unlikely to be doing it for the money, I wonder why they bother at all.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Thank you for your input @CavalierOwner ! It was very helpful. Would you mind answering where you're from and where you volunteered in those kennels at?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Also! Wanted to add that I'm not sure where you're from, but I know that it's not uncommon for Bitches to be pumped with testosterone during heat to avoid it. Just to counter a bit of that. I can find a racing page that I read a while back that supports that as well if you'd like, gimme a sec


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

What generalisation did I make?  I said I'm not naive enough to think that all owners are the same. I also never said that those horrific things don't happen somewhere? Like I said there are good and bad people everywhere. I've gone from my experience at a kennels and tracks I WORKED at. I've also had plenty of conversations with other kennel hands and trainer while at the track.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Here are some real news stories as well.

"Two greyhound haulers were suspended for 30 days and fined $500 each after*eight greyhounds died* while being transported to Arizona in 2010. At least some of the dogs were being sent to race at Tucson Greyhound Park. The haulers claimed that they were unable to check on the dogs for part of the trip due to bad weather, but a state report of the incident found that "the evidence does not support that they drove through severe rainstorms."

Here's the report article.

http://tucson.com/news/local/greyho...cle_7c85ca29-65e4-5bca-888e-7f6eae293c55.html

Also:

"Between May 2013 and July 2014, the deaths of 149 greyhounds have been reported at Florida's 13 dog tracks, an average of one greyhound death every three days."

"These are dogs, not racing machines. And the public has a right to know what this industry is really like," said Carla Wilson.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/gr...igated-at-central-florida-dog-tracks/28152346

Like I said, more regulation and better treatment of the animals.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> What generalisation did I make?  I said I'm not naive enough to think that all owners are the same. I also never said that those horrific things don't happen somewhere? Like I said there are good and bad people everywhere. I've gone from my experience at a kennels and tracks I WORKED at. I've also had plenty of conversations with other kennel hands and trainer while at the track.


Who said you were making generalizations? :/

Where was the kennel you volunteered at, if I may ask?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Also, here are some more very recent deaths that were pretty brutal that happened on the track in case anyone doesn't want to click the link. That's where they came from.


In June 2013, a greyhound named Royal Runner was "bumped into the rail and electrocuted" by the 220 volt wire that powers the rabbit lure at the Palm Beach Kennel Club.
JW's Ku Ku Kiada was euthanized after a "catastrophic" break to the right hind leg during a performance at the Pensacola Greyhound Track.
Following an unofficial schooling race at the Daytona Beach Kennel Club in October 2013, a dog named NB Game Plan "completed race, collapsed, and died".
In January 2014 at the Pensacola Greyhound Track, TL Black Diamond was "involved in a collision on the 3rd turn and was trampled, which resulted in her front leg being so severely broken" she had to be euthanized.
Boc's Velocity died following a race at the Melbourne Greyhound Park in April 2014. The kennel operator wanted to repair the dog's serious leg fracture, writing that such surgeries were something they have done" hundreds of times before with other greyhounds." The dog was euthanized after suffering respiratory and cardiac arrest.
In July 2014, Classy Sassy died after its leg was shattered at the Ebro Greyhound Park. Less than two weeks later, the same thing happened at the same facility to a dog named Cruizin Ann.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Some owners do it because they enjoy going to the dogs and like to own there own. Look at how much a dog gets per race without winning and then ring a trainer and enquire about what their daily rate is. Unless you have an exceptional dog you aren't going to be making hardly anything. This money doesn't get handed over to the owner either (I presume it would if they won thousands like the greyhound derby) it gets knocked of following kennel bills.

I worked for a greyhound trainer and I live in England


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Also thought this was a very important piece from that article.

“It’s a sport,” said Newlin. “Athletes get hurt.”

“Human athletes have a choice in the matter whether or not to run,” said Carla Wilson, the animal rights activist. “Greyhounds don't have a choice in the matter.”

While Greyhounds may enjoy running, my dog enjoys chasing raccoons into gutters. Do I let him? No, because if he gets attacked it may leave him very injured or even killed - they're big creatures. Same principal.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

It's called suppressing a season and at our kennels we never did it. It's an injection.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> Some owners do it because they enjoy going to the dogs and like to own there own. Look at how much a dog gets per race without winning and then ring a trainer and enquire about what their daily rate is. Unless you have an exceptional dog you aren't going to be making hardly anything. This money doesn't get handed over to the owner either (I presume it would if they won thousands like the greyhound derby) it gets knocked of following kennel bills.
> 
> I worked for a greyhound trainer and I live in England


Not worth the negatives for the dogs, in my opinion.

Far better to bet on computer generated racing, and if they want to pet or walk a dog, without having to keep it at home, go along and volunteer at a rescue.

I'm being a bit facetious here, but really don't think the end always justifies the means IYKWIM


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> Some owners do it because they enjoy going to the dogs and like to own there own. Look at how much a dog gets per race without winning and then ring a trainer and enquire about what their daily rate is. Unless you have an exceptional dog you aren't going to be making hardly anything. This money doesn't get handed over to the owner either (I presume it would if they won thousands like the greyhound derby) it gets knocked of following kennel bills.
> 
> I worked for a greyhound trainer and I live in England


I have absolutely no clue how England works their tracks. All of my knowledge is of American tracks, and I can tell you that generally owners do not keep their dogs here. Websites for racing will blatantly state that the rehoming issue IS a problem and they're "making efforts" to cut back on breeding so that every greyhound can find a home but clearly that's not a reality.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> It's called suppressing a season and at our kennels we never did it. It's an injection.


It's been admitted to happening at kennels over here so while I'm glad your kennel didn't do it, it's still happening somewhere and there are no laws protecting greyhounds from it.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Also, found this on Grey2kUSA website. Credit in text.









That's only 4-5 years ago. This isn't ages ago, and honestly? Doesn't look like a super happy existence or one that I would submit my dog to.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

I can not speak for every single trainer, owner or greyhound in the world! I am basing these things on my experience. I have worked it and seen behind the scenes which most people have not. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Like I said there are a lot of vile normal pet owners.

I have also seen programmes where people have been calling themselve an animal rescue then have been neglecting the animals or breeding them to make money. Does that mean they all do it??

I'm sure there are bad trainers but are there more bad ones than good?

What about dog breeders in general? Are there more good or bad?

Also overbreeding of any breed. Should any of use be buying ANY dogs when there are millions in rescues?


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> It's been admitted to happening at kennels over here so while I'm glad your kennel didn't do it, it's still happening somewhere and there are no laws protecting greyhounds from it.


It's happens here too but we didn't do it.



chickenfoot said:


> Also, found this on Grey2kUSA website. Credit in text.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Our dogs were kept 2 to a kennel male with female. Big raised bed with vet bed at the bottom and shredded paper/cloth. Plenty of floor space, Windows and a big bucket of water which was cleaned daily along with the rest of the kennel. That picture there looks to me like a dog has been transported to a track. It says it was taken at a greyhound park? Presuming this is a track that is how it's travelled there not how it lives


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> I can not speak for every single trainer, owner or greyhound in the world! I am basing these things on my experience. I have worked it and seen behind the scenes which most people have not. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Like I said there are a lot of vile normal pet owners.
> 
> I have also seen programmes where people have been calling themselve an animal rescue then have been neglecting the animals or breeding them to make money. Does that mean they all do it??
> 
> ...


I know you haven't been following this but all of these things have already been compared to racing and I've said a billion times I'm not comparing evils. I understand there are evils in all of those situations but that doesn't mean they don't need to end or be regulated. I'm not trying to attack you, just reminding you that just because the good may outweigh the bad doesn't mean the bad should be ignored. No one even KNOWS if the good outweighs the bad, but from what I've researched, there's enough bad for me to strongly disagree with the industry.

No one is accusing you of making generalizations or saying you know everything! I honestly appreciate your input. I just want to bring light to the horrible deaths that are still happening in the greyhound racing world and help educate people on the issue.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> *I can not speak for every single trainer, owner or greyhound in the world! I am basing these things on my experience. I have worked it and seen behind the scenes which most people have not. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Like I said there are a lot of vile normal pet owners.*


Nobody asked you to, to be fair.

The OP has stated several times that she agrees there is cruelty and neglect in other areas, but was talking specifically on this thread about greyhound racing.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> It's called suppressing a season and at our kennels we never did it. It's an injection.


And it's not only done in racing kennels. I've seen it done for other competitive venues as well.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I wish I was 19 again, it must be wonderful to be so sure of your facts.

On your thinking Chickenfoot, we should not really be doing anything with our dogs except letting them live in the house and going for controlled walks. And what about horses. There are a lot of racing accidents, also show jumping and eventing but horrors there are even more from horses left out in the field. Do you know I had 2 horses at the vets on Monday and I have the vet out to two injured ones tomorrow so probably it is really cruel to keep them even though one of them is fully retired and one is half retired and one had 6 months of expensive vets bills to save his life last winter.

How many people on here have dogs that have had major surgery or maybe been pts because it is either not economic or not fair on the dog to go any further. How cruel is that.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> And it's not only done in racing kennels. I've seen it done for other competitive venues as well.


It is also done by pet owners for inconveniently times seasons.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't feel attacked at all  I'm giving my input just like everyone else! I feel like I should make my point because I have first hand experience and there doesn't seem to be many others in this thread who has it.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> All of the things I have stated do happen a lot, at least in America, and you can read about it here if you'd like.
> 
> http://www.grey2kusa.org/index.php
> 
> ...


Okay, you're totally missing my point.
I don't need an education on greyhound racing, thanks. 
All I'm trying to say is that just because someone points out inaccuracies and fallacies in an argument, doesn't mean they support the other side.

But you're full of piss and vinegar, so carry on LOL....


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I wish I was 19 again, it must be wonderful to be so sure of your facts.
> 
> On your thinking Chickenfoot, we should not really be doing anything with our dogs except letting them live in the house and going for controlled walks. And what about horses. There are a lot of racing accidents, also show jumping and eventing but horrors there are even more from horses left out in the field. Do you know I had 2 horses at the vets on Monday and I have the vet out to two injured ones tomorrow so probably it is really cruel to keep them even though one of them is fully retired and one is half retired and one had 6 months of expensive vets bills to save his life last winter.
> 
> How many people on here have dogs that have had major surgery or maybe been pts because it is either not economic or not fair on the dog to go any further. How cruel is that.


? All of the things I have recently posted have been greyhound deaths from articles that have police reports down on them so yeah I'm pretty sure about them. My age has nothing to do with this thread and it's annoying to have it brought up more than once just because you disagree. If I was 30 and saying the same thing you wouldn't say "wow must be nice to be 30 and feel so sure of yourself!" Annoying.

I know nothing of horse racing so I cannot comment on it because this is about greyhound racing so I'm not sure why you brought that into the picture

And no, your assumption is wrong. I don't think the only thing dogs should do is be in the house. I think tracks should be regulated to prevent injury like being electrocuted by a rabbit lure which could have been easily solved by putting up a guard rail! Oh but they did - but only after the public outrage pressured them to.

Or maybe tracks designed in a way that doesn't result in greys colliding with each other and resulting in broken bones and paralysis that happens far too frequently? Or maybe some prevention of the greyhound death roughly every three days in Florida alone. Hm. Maybe that's what I'm against and not the sport itself.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I wish I was 19 again, it must be wonderful to be so sure of your facts.
> 
> On your thinking Chickenfoot, we should not really be doing anything with our dogs except letting them live in the house and going for controlled walks. And what about horses. There are a lot of racing accidents, also show jumping and eventing but horrors there are even more from horses left out in the field. Do you know I had 2 horses at the vets on Monday and I have the vet out to two injured ones tomorrow so probably it is really cruel to keep them even though one of them is fully retired and one is half retired and one had 6 months of expensive vets bills to save his life last winter.
> 
> How many people on here have dogs that have had major surgery or maybe been pts because it is either not economic or not fair on the dog to go any further. How cruel is that.


One of my dogs has had an eye ulcer from getting poked in the eye by a twig out in the garden, I've had one limping and needed a vet trip for scrambling into kitchen after its been raining then skidding on the floor and smacking it the cupboard. I've also had a nail torn out.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Ooh! Or maybe the regulation of the 300+ live animals brought in each week in the U.S mutilated for live baiting, having their legs broken so their screams will entice the hounds to chase them and rip them to shreds. Wouldn't that be marvelous


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> One of my dogs has had an eye ulcer from getting poked in the eye by a twig out in the garden, I've had one limping and needed a vet trip for scrambling into kitchen after its been raining then skidding on the floor and smacking it the cupboard. I've also had a nail torn out.


But does your dog get stabbed in the eye every three days? These are freak accidents that have nothing to do with the FREQUENT racing jnjuries.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Okay, you're totally missing my point.
> I don't need an education on greyhound racing, thanks.
> All I'm trying to say is that just because someone points out inaccuracies and fallacies in an argument, doesn't mean they support the other side.
> 
> But you're full of piss and vinegar, so carry on LOL....


Funny... Because that's what this whole thread is about. Education of greyhound racing. Not sure what thread you think you're on?

So hilarious that the moment I show facts and give you actual information you shut me down and tell me I'm on piss and vinegar but whatever carry on.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

This thread has transformed completely away from the dogs and has been turned into some kind of ego competition or an immature "who can argue their point longer". I gave my opinions and people refuted them. Fine, I have police reports, articles, statistics, facts, and I've been shut down. It's clear to me this conversation is no longer a mature one.

The statement about "I don't need an education on greyhound racing" was particularly mind blowing to me because this is what the thread is about. It's clear to me that it's completely not about the dogs anymore and it's annoying but it is what it is. I think I'll be abandoning this thread and petitioning against greyhound racing on my own. Thanks for all of the good input! Really appreciate it.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Funny... Because that's what this whole thread is about. Education of greyhound racing. Not sure what thread you think you're on?
> 
> So hilarious that the moment I show facts and give you actual information you shut me down and tell me I'm on piss and vinegar but whatever carry on.


OMG will you get a grip for a minute?
I don't know who named you the purveyor of all greyhound racing knowledge, but some of us don't need an education about GH racing. The racing industry and subsequent rescues have been around longer than you have been alive. This forum is full of knowledgable folks, rescuers, and ex-racer owners. Some of us may know a thing or two about the industry and the leftovers from the industry. You're teaching your granny to suck eggs here.

If you're going to assume everyone that points out a hole or inconsistency in your arguments is in support of the racing industry, a) you'll find that the assumption is wrong, and b) you're gonna alienate a lot of folks.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Why would any dog be getting stabbed in the eye every 3 days? If you are referring to how often a greyhound runs then believe me in this country an individual greyhound does not run every 3 days more like once a week. I know this because I've worked with them. What happened to my dogs aren't freak accidents just accidents. Do you think every single greyhound gets seriously injured? Like I said I worked it for 4 years, was at the track 4 times a week and had a couple of hock breaks which were fixed. People can let their dog off lead in a park and have the same thing happen. Off course they can get hurt but everyone's dogs can. I've seen people on here who's dogs have had the same type of injury a greyhound can get, a torn nail, cut foot from standing on something a pulled muscle. Does a dog get injured everytime it runs NO if dogs were injured constantly there wouldn't be any racing coz they'd all be injured. We can both try to make our points until we are blue in the face but at the end of it all we are both going to have the same views and opinions. I'm just here to give info as someone who has worked behind the scenes.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> Why would any dog be getting stabbed in the eye every 3 days? If you are referring to how often a greyhound runs then believe me in this country an individual greyhound does not run every 3 days more like once a week. I know this because I've worked with them. What happened to my dogs aren't freak accidents just accidents. Do you think every single greyhound gets seriously injured? Like I said I worked it for 4 years, was at the track 4 times a week and had a couple of hock breaks which were fixed. People can let their dog off lead in a park and have the same thing happen. Off course they can get hurt but everyone's dogs can. I've seen people on here who's dogs have had the same type of injury a greyhound can get, a torn nail, cut foot from standing on something a pulled muscle. Does a dog get injured everytime it runs NO if dogs were injured constantly there wouldn't be any racing coz they'd all be injured. We can both try to make our points until we are blue in the face but at the end of it all we are both going to have the same views and opinions. I'm just here to give info as someone who has worked behind the scenes.


That came from the greyhound that dies every 3 days on the racetrack due to injury in Florida over here in America.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> That came from the greyhound that dies every 3 days on the racetrack due to injury in Florida over here in America.


I live in the UK ever thought that maybe the industry is worse over there than here?


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> Right I'm back! I haven't read all the posts because I was super tired last night but I did read the majority of them. I worked at a greyhound kennels for 4 years as a teen so it's safe to say I have some knowledge about it from first hand experience.
> 
> First off Owners....when people say all of them are in it for profit/investment must not have much of a clue about how kennels work. These people don't just buy a dog and plonk it into a kennels and watch it run, there are kennel bills just like boarding a dog. Yes a greyhound running contributes to that bill but unless you have a dog that wins often you are always going to have to cover the difference because the fee a dog gets for simply being in a race won't cover it.
> When a dog is injured they obviously don't run for a while and the owner still has to pay a kennel bill.
> ...


I discovered the fact about the muzzles in this video. There are also videos and photos of dogs running in severe weather conditions, so it's not every race meeting that is abandoned because of poor weather.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> I live in the UK ever thought that maybe the industry is worse over there than here?


I have actually I SAID multiple times all my knowledge is of America and I have no clue how it's run in the UK or any other parts of the world and I told you I'm happy that it works like the way you experienced over there. I ABSOLUTELY believe that's a possibility that's why I asked where you were from. America is an immensely greedy country. I'm personally glad to be an American because I could have it much worse, but I'm not proud by any means.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I discovered the fact about the muzzles in this video. There are also videos and photos of dogs running in severe weather conditions, so it's not every race meeting that is abandoned because of poor weather.


This is from the perspective of someone who has to rehabilitate them and undo what a track has done so I think these videos are very important To watch


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I discovered the fact about the muzzles in this video. There are also videos and photos of dogs running in severe weather conditions, so it's not every race meeting that is abandoned because of poor weather.


I never said every meeting was abandoned due to weather. I'm going from my experience. We have had meetings abandoned.



chickenfoot said:


> I have actually I SAID multiple times all my knowledge is of America and I have no clue how it's run in the UK or any other parts of the world and I told you I'm happy that it works like the way you experienced over there. I ABSOLUTELY believe that's a possibility that's why I asked where you were from. America is an immensely greedy country. I'm personally glad to be an American because I could have it much worse, but I'm not proud by any means.


But are all trainers/owners in America cruel and selfish? Have you met, spoke to or been to any of their kennels?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> I never said every meeting was abandoned due to weather. I'm going from my experience. We have had meetings abandoned.
> 
> But are all trainers/owners in America cruel and selfish? Have you met, spoke to or been to any of their kennels?


I never said they're all cruel and selfish. And no, but what I'm giving you are actual police backed reports of horrible things that have happened to the greyhounds on the tracks here in America as recent as this year and that continue to happen to many greyhounds each week. Many of them are in Florida - a total of 12 out of the 21 operating in the total of 7 states it's legal - which accounts for over half of the tracks are in Florida. It's no wonder why the bad press comes from there because it's pretty heavily unregulated. Arizona is also notably bad.

To put it into perspective though - I don't support Chinese fur farms. There are videos of raccoon dogs (not actual dogs they look like big raccoons but still creatures that feel pain) being skinned alive and videos that show them still moving after their skin has been stripped, all for fur coats And fashion. One tries to blink and it's sickening. Do I have to visit China to not support this industry? No. I may never visit China, but I will never support that industry. (Any fur farm really but this one is on the extreme branch of things for examples purposes)


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Again I'm going from my experiences you have your opinions I have mine. From what I've witnessed personally I believe there are more good trainers/owners than bad in THIS country. I have no experience of what happens anywhere else just like you have no experience of what happens here.

I don't wear fur and wouldn't wear fur but I'm presuming there's a big difference between animals used for fur to greyhounds? Greyhounds looked after properly don't have such a miserable life they live in kennels like many working dogs, get fed properly and let outside and enjoy running before retiring? I bet animals used for fur are far worse off. But again I have no experience with this


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> Again I'm going from my experiences you have your opinions I have mine. From what I've witnessed personally I believe there are more good trainers/owners than bad in THIS country. I have no experience of what happens anywhere else just like you have no experience of what happens here.
> 
> I don't wear fur and wouldn't wear fur but I'm presuming there's a big difference between animals used for fur to greyhounds? Greyhounds looked after properly don't have such a miserable life they live in kennels like many working dogs, get fed properly and let outside and enjoy running before retiring? I bet animals used for fur are far worse off. But again I have no experience with this


I was absolutely not comparing the two it was an example to get my point across.

I personally can't comment on how the UK runs their tracks because I know nothing of it and I'm not trying to dispute that. As I've stated I'm speaking of America only


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

chickenfoot said:


> I was absolutely not comparing the two it was an example to get my point across.
> 
> I personally can't comment on how the UK runs their tracks because I know nothing of it and I'm not trying to dispute that. As I've stated I'm speaking of America only


Do you realise that this is a UK forum. It is interesting to get perspectives from other countries but fairly pointless to start US specific threads.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm going to stick my two-penneth in, purely from personal experience.

Thirty years ago, greyhound/lurcher numbers were a serious problem in our rescue here, usually coming in as strays. Along with them, the majority of dogs abandonded or relinquished were gsdx or colliex.

Now the greyhounds and lurchers are still a problem, but the others are staffies and staffiex.

Read into this what you may.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Funny... Because that's what this whole thread is about. Education of greyhound racing. Not sure what thread you think you're on?
> 
> So hilarious that the moment I show facts and give you actual information you shut me down and tell me I'm on piss and vinegar but whatever carry on.


Because you start a thread about greyhound racing, it doesn't qualify you educate others on the subject.

I could start a thread about farming, for instance. That doesn't mean I know the first thing about it .............. I don't.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> I'd like to say that this is extremely rude and she made a valid point in saying what she did. Someone that's willing to argue so fiercely in favor of something that one may consider horrendous is a perfectly good reason to think that they support something, even if it's not directly. I certainly feel that way, and have throughout this thread. It's confusing for one to say that they don't support something at all, while also saying they don't know enough about it to not support it. Personally I don't know a TON about it, but what I do know about it I disagree with. It seems to me that some people on this thread don't know anything about it but are defending it by doing things like making comparisons to greyhounds and their farm animals, saying they're cared for but are ultimately killed after their purpose is used up. (I also don't agree with the meat industry so I'm biased in that way but this is an example.) Also by saying other dogs are kenneled, so it's not that bad. Or by saying that money is won in other doggy activities, so it's not that bad is it?
> 
> I have continuously said that my aversions are because its an industry that, for the mass majority, does the following : over breeds dogs, purchases one of those overbred dogs and generally views them as an investment, doesn't own the dog and sends it to kennels to be trained, kennel keeps dog in crate for about 22 hours a day, dog races and puts its life on the line due to poor regulation of accidents and injuries, dog who is injured badly is euth'd, dog who is injured minimally like a broken leg which could otherwise be fixes is also usually euth'd, dogs who "make it" and retire are sent to rescues because owner doesn't generally keep them where they spend more time in kennels, dogs who don't get adopted are euth'd, and dogs who do get adopted are lucky.
> 
> I trust LurcherGreyhoundGirl because she owns greyhounds and has worked more closely with the breed and the industry than many of us have. She brings out good points and states facts from good sources. It's not fair of you to attack her by accusing her of ruining threads just by being apart of them. That's rude and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


I really could not care less if you think it is rude. I have no time for someone who would happily see one breed wiped off the face of the earth but will accuse others of defending a cruel industry when her breed is involved. So feel free to take your education on greyhounds from her. Don't ask her to help with bull breeds, you'll get a very different education

You are assuming people don't know about it, you seem to know very little other than reading other people's experiences.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I really could not care less if you think it is rude. I have no time for someone who would happily see one breed wiped off the face of the earth but will accuse others of defending a cruel industry when her breed is involved. So feel free to take your education on greyhounds from her. Don't ask her to help with bull breeds, you'll get a very different education
> 
> You are assuming people don't know about it, you seem to know very little other than reading other people's experiences.


Excuse me?! I NEVER said I wanted any breed wiped out! So don't you dare make up things about me! I only said I wanted extra precautions taken with certain breeds!

As for you not caring about being rude. That speaks volumes!


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Excuse me?! I NEVER said I wanted any breed wiped out! So don't you dare make up things about me! I only said I wanted extra precautions taken with certain breeds!
> 
> As for you not caring about being rude. That speaks volumes!


You support BSL duh. What do you think that means for the breeds affected by BSL? Warm fuzzy crates for the rest of their lives? Nope....


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Excuse me?! I NEVER said I wanted any breed wiped out! So don't you dare make up things about me! I only said I wanted extra precautions taken with certain breeds!
> 
> As for you not caring about being rude. That speaks volumes!


I would like to see extra precautions taken with you.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Sweety said:


> I would like to see extra precautions taken with you.


I shouldn't laugh.... I really shouldn't...

:Joyful:Joyful:Joyful


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Do you realise that this is a UK forum. It is interesting to get perspectives from other countries but fairly pointless to start US specific threads.


This isn't us specific I'm just admitting I only have knowledge of us and would like to learn more about other countries and how they operate their tracks


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Excuse me?! I NEVER said I wanted any breed wiped out! So don't you dare make up things about me! I only said I wanted extra precautions taken with certain breeds!
> 
> As for you not caring about being rude. That speaks volumes!


Really are you sure? You ranted and raved about your hatred for bullbreeds.

I feel no need at all to be polite to you, none what so ever! You want dogs to be treated equal to humans with the same rights, except of course if they are a bull breed, then BSL all the way, which would result in????? That speaks volumes about you!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Excuse me?! I NEVER said I wanted any breed wiped out! So don't you dare make up things about me! I only said I wanted extra precautions taken with certain breeds!
> 
> As for you not caring about being rude. That speaks volumes!


"no you are not correct you haven't been correct at any point in this thread. What you have done each and every time this being a prime example is ignore the facts and twist things to suit your zealot agenda. I was merely point out the FACT that you keep skipping over.Go educate yourself on the true FACT rather than hysteria driven BS."

So this is what I said in our last encounter stands true here too!!!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> I trust LurcherGreyhoundGirl because she owns greyhounds and has worked more closely with the breed and the industry than many of us have. She brings out good points and states facts from good sources. It's not fair of you to attack her by accusing her of ruining threads just by being apart of them. That's rude and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


To be fair to you, you are quite new to this forum, so don't know of previous 'debates' on different breeds of dogs and particularly on BSL.
I think that maybe if you had read those debates you would understand why certain remarks were made and why it pays to keep an open mind on why people hold certain opinions and will distrust opinions of some others.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

silvi said:


> To be fair to you, you are quite new to this forum, so don't know of previous 'debates' on different breeds of dogs and particularly on BSL.
> I think that maybe if you had read those debates you would understand why certain remarks were made and why it pays to keep an open mind on why people hold certain opinions and will distrust opinions of some others.


I don't understand where BSL comes in because it's not the breed being banned its the activity.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> I don't understand where BSL comes in because it's not the breed being banned its the activity.


It doesn't. There is no BSL for Greyhounds. To understand why things are so heated now you need an understanding of the UK media and how they portray "bull" breeds. Lots of people on here have Staffordshire Bull Terriers... and could possibly be posting with one perched on their lap.. so a suggestion that as a breed they need special consideration is likely to meet a lot of resistance.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

diefenbaker said:


> It doesn't. There is no BSL for Greyhounds. To understand why things are so heated now you need an understanding of the UK media and how they portray "bull" breeds. Lots of people on here have Staffordshire Bull Terriers... and could possibly be posting with one perched on their lap.. so a suggestion that as a breed they need special consideration is likely to meet a lot of resistance.


Thank you for informing me, I didn't realize it was currently such a sensitive topic and I apologize if I hurt anyone but I still have no idea where that comes in to play with this thread. I'm not batting against BSL and I understand it's an issue - there are MANY cities here in America that ban staffies and I completely understand how terrible of a thing that is. I would gladly be apart of a thread to help educate about BSL but this particular thread has nothing to do with BSL so I'm confused on why it was brought up


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> Thank you for informing me, I didn't realize it was currently such a sensitive topic and I apologize if I hurt anyone but I still have no idea where that comes in to play with this thread. I'm not batting against BSL and I understand it's an issue - there are MANY cities here in America that ban staffies and I completely understand how terrible of a thing that is. I would gladly be apart of a thread to help educate about BSL but this particular thread has nothing to do with BSL so I'm confused on why it was brought up


Posters have a long history. And some have even longer memories. It's just best not to mention it. I would definitely not start a thread about it.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

diefenbaker said:


> Posters have a long history. And some have even longer memories. It's just best not to mention it. I would definitely not start a thread about it.


I wasn't planning on it. I'm just trying to remain on topic for this thread.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I wasn't planning on it. I'm just trying to remain on topic for this thread.


Those of us with the aforementioned long memories (I really should drink more to get rid of that annoyance) can't recal a 17 page thread that remained on topic.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Those of us with the aforementioned long memories (I really should drink more to get rid of that annoyance) can't recal a 17 page thread that remained on topic.


And clearly this has struggled but it would be nice to focus on the deaths of these dogs and how we can help regulate the industry rather than bringing in irrelevant topics that have nothing to do with it


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Okay, I tried to be subtle....
Your biggest supporter was very outspoken on this other thread (and in a way it seems you yourself would not be in favour of).
As a result, there are many here who will not give much credence to anything else they say.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

silvi said:


> Okay, I tried to be subtle....
> Your biggest supporter was very outspoken on this other thread (and in a way it seems you yourself would not be in favour of).
> As a result, there are many here who will not give much credence to anything else they say.


I don't know anything of that obviously, so my opinions come from what has been said on here. She did give good statistics and sources on here, so I can't well judge her by a thread I know nothing about.

I completely understand your hesitation though, as I am probably going to feel biased against a couple members for a while. I'd love to get over our differences and maybe be friends some day, but I understand where you're coming from.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> And clearly this has struggled but it would be nice to focus on the deaths of these dogs and how we can help regulate the industry rather than bringing in irrelevant topics that have nothing to do with it


And as this seems something you're passionate about that's great, make the difference you can. Just because greyhound racing isn't some peoples cause does not mean they don't care enough. We all champion our own causes, and that's a good thing. As you have discovered, there are cultural differences between greyhound racing in the UK and US, and therefore there are many causes people in the UK may wish to give them time to instead.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> And as this seems something you're passionate about that's great, make the difference you can. Just because greyhound racing isn't some peoples cause does not mean they don't care enough. We all champion our own causes, and that's a good thing. As you have discovered, there are cultural differences between greyhound racing in the UK and US, and therefore there are many causes people in the UK may wish to give them time to instead.


I understand that and have NEVER refuted that, even stating that America is an awfully greedy place and i would not have one doubt in my mind that we are far worse than some other places. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to bring our side to light to people who may have never thought of it. Just because I don't live in the UK and BSL isn't something that's sweeping my whole country as its threatening to do there doesn't mean I disagree with it wholly and fully over there. Do you get what I'm saying?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I understand that and have NEVER refuted that, even stating that America is an awfully greedy place and i would not have one doubt in my mind that we are far worse than some other places. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to bring our side to light to people who may have never thought of it. Just because I don't live in the UK and BSL isn't something that's sweeping my whole country as its threatening to do there doesn't mean I disagree with it wholly and fully over there. Do you get what I'm saying?


Indeed, and I would hope that throughout the thread people have learned about the industry in some ways from both sides of the pond. It's not a black and white topic by any stretch though, as I referred to the dog training industry earlier. If we were to write it off because of a lot of unreputable people then we really wouldn't make progress.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Indeed, and I would hope that throughout the thread people have learned about the industry in some ways from both sides of the pond. It's not a black and white topic by any stretch though, as I referred to the dog training industry earlier. If we were to write it off because of a lot of unreputable people then we really wouldn't make progress.


I certainly don't want to rid of it completely, I just want it to be more regulated. That dog who was electrocuted by the rabbit lure could still be alive had they put up a guard rail BEFORE. And that dog who collapsed on the track and died could be living happily with a loving owner today had his heart condition not been ignored. That dog who bumped one of his competitors and shattered his leg could be alive today if regulation was made to make tracks less exciting for people (less corners and turns) and more safe for the dogs (long stretches instead of sharp turns) and those 8 greyhounds that died from heat exhaustion on a trip up to Arizona could have been easily avoided if only more precautions were take. To regulate the temperature inside the vehicle. What an awful way to die - can you imagine boiling to death? Or those greyhounds that have nails underneath the muzzles in a few tracks to prevent them from barking (not all by any means and maybe not even most! But it still happens due to poor regulation)

It's just a subject that's very near to me and I feel strongly about. I just want people to realize how unregulated American tracks are  it's quite sad


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The heart condition may not have just been ignored, there are quite a few incidents in humans where athletes, young, fit otherwise very healthy, die because of sudden heart issues. I can't remember the name of it but surely it's possible in dogs too


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


> The heart condition may not have just been ignored, there are quite a few incidents in humans where athletes, young, fit otherwise very healthy, die because of sudden heart issues. I can't remember the name of it but surely it's possible in dogs too


And for all of the other injuries I stated? Lack of regulation. I see what you're saying though, but I think the report exclusively said they were aware of it but they had the dog race anyway and it went into cardiac arrest.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

chickenfoot said:


> And for all of the other injuries I stated? Lack of regulation. I see what you're saying though, but I think the report exclusively said they were aware of it but they had the dog race anyway and it went into cardiac arrest.


If they knowingly raced a dog with heart issues then I agree with you. There needs to be tighter regulation on this, but until it can make them money to do so or there's enough of a public outcry they won't do anything. And good luck with that when horses die nearly every year in the biggest race here and people still happily support it.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


> If they knowingly raced a dog with heart issues then I agree with you. There needs to be tighter regulation on this, but until it can make them money to do so or there's enough of a public outcry they won't do anything. And good luck with that when horses die nearly every year in the biggest race here and people still happily support it.


I understand that it's going to be hard to do anything about it, but they are rapidly shutting down At least over here so I'm happy about them. I think 12-14 shut down in about 7 years so that's excellent news. If they aren't going to be regulated then I don't want them around. I'd be happy to see regulated tracks that advocate for the animals health though! But yes I agree. There will still be people who support it, and I think it will be particularly difficult to close the ones in Florida.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2015)

Close OR regulate * sorry. If they're regulated then I'd be happy to support them.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

OK, said I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but talking about the injuries involved in grey racing compared to your average pet and the practice of euthanising them for serious injuries...

Last year, I made a thread about an accident that happened on New Year's Day (NYD 2014) involving my eldest - the white tri on the left of my siggie. What actually happened, I'm not entirely certain, but if I were to hazard an educated guess, I would say that it was most likely that my lurcher (Milly) T-barred him at speed and caused some spinal damage - enough to completely wipe out Max's hindquarters. This wasn't on a track - it was on a large field known as the slag heap, and we had the entire field to ourselves. 

The emergency vet said it could take up to 6 months of intensive care (home care, not vet care) to get him back on his feet and that we had 3 options:

1) Leave him in the vets overnight to see how he was.
2) Take him home and see his own vet the following day.
3) PTS.

I'll tell you which option I went for later (if no one tells Teacher the answer first   ) AND the outcome but based on that, CF, what would you do?

And yes, it's relevant to greyhound racing, because any owner - including a racing dog owner, could face the same dilemma.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> OK, said I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but talking about the injuries involved in grey racing compared to your average pet and the practice of euthanising them for serious injuries...
> 
> Last year, I made a thread about an accident that happened on New Year's Day (NYD 2014) involving my eldest - the white tri on the left of my siggie. What actually happened, I'm not entirely certain, but if I were to hazard an educated guess, I would say that it was most likely that my lurcher (Milly) T-barred him at speed and caused some spinal damage - enough to completely wipe out Max's hindquarters. This wasn't on a track - it was on a large field known as the slag heap, and we had the entire field to ourselves.
> 
> ...


How many more times has this happened to you? Because it sure happens too frequently in racing world. Do you think you would place another of your dogs in front of a greyhound charging full speed on purpose? So why should greyhounds be allowed to run like that side by side and around sharp corners if one wrong step and you've got a paralyzed dog on your hands? Is that a risk you want to take for entertainment, or should people who own greys allow them to be happily running out of the way of any other dogs being harmed? Doesn't that sound more responsible?

It's very tragic that that happened and I'm sorry to hear it. I would be devastated, and a dog I cared about would never be intentionally put by me into that position. They may like to run, but do you think if they had the ability to reason that they may end up paralyzed they'd do it? Some may, just as human athletes put their health at risk for sport, but greyhounds don't have a choice and they can't consider those things. It's up to the people to determine those things, just as I wouldn't allow my dog to chase squirrels into the street just because he loves chasing squirrels. He may get injured and I as a person who cares about his well being don't want that.

I hope this makes sense


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> How many more times has this happened to you? Because it sure happens too frequently in racing world. Do you think you would place another of your dogs in front of a greyhound charging full speed on purpose? So why should greyhounds be allowed to run like that side by side and around sharp corners if one wrong step and you've got a paralyzed dog on your hands? Is that a risk you want to take for entertainment, or should people who own greys allow them to be happily running out of the way of any other dogs being harmed? Doesn't that sound more responsible?
> 
> It's very tragic that that happened and I'm sorry to hear it. I would be devastated, and a dog I cared about would never be intentionally put by me into that position. They may like to run, but do you think if they had the ability to reason that they may end up paralyzed they'd do it? Some may, just as human athletes put their health at risk for sport, but greyhounds don't have a choice and they can't consider those things. It's up to the people to determine those things, just as I wouldn't allow my dog to chase squirrels into the street just because he loves chasing squirrels. He may get injured and I as a person who cares about his well being don't want that.
> 
> I hope this makes sense


You didn't answer my question.

That one severe incident? Once.

I can't speak for greys, but lurchers are notoriously clumsy and while they have the speed, they don't watch where they're going. Milly's knocked me off my feet more than once, ran into hedges, ran into Max (twice), and into other dogs (for which I apologised profusely, of course), and even ran into a lamppost. Did it stop her? Did it heck! She registered the sudden pain in her shoulder for 2 seconds, tops, and was off again. If it taught her anything at all, it was to look where she was going, but the majority of those incidents happened within the first few months of owning her. Even now, when she's offlead and coming towards me at speed, I have a moment's panic (which is all that I'm allowed): Is she going to send me flying again, or is she going to miss me by a hair's breadth? Should_ I_ take evasive action, or will she? So yes, if she could rationalise, she'd still choose the speed over safety.



> They may like to run, but do you think if they had the ability to reason that they may end up paralyzed they'd do it?


Do you avoid crossing roads because of the risk of being run over?
Do you avoid travelling in a car/driving because of the risk of a car crash and therefore, potential paralysis?


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

What did you do Linz? I think I would do no 2.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Humans, supposedly rational thinking creatures, do stupid life endangering stuff all the time because it's fun. Why wouldn't a grey that could rationalize do the same


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Humans, supposedly rational thinking creatures, do stupid life endangering stuff all the time because it's fun. Why wouldn't a grey that could rationalize do the same


Prime example is that I saw some numpty riding his very highly powered motorbike very swiftly around the local farm, without a helmet and only wearing shorts and a T-Shirt


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Meezey said:


> "no you are not correct you haven't been correct at any point in this thread. What you have done each and every time this being a prime example is ignore the facts and twist things to suit your zealot agenda. I was merely point out the FACT that you keep skipping over.Go educate yourself on the true FACT rather than hysteria driven BS."
> 
> So this is what I said in our last encounter stands true here too!!!


So you are lying about me again? Every single thing I have said about the racing industry can be verified by reputable sources who have spent years collecting data, rescuing and rehabilitating dogs, news articles, photographic evidence and from undercover investigations. It's not hysteria - it's the truth! I have done tonnes of research and most definitely have educated myself. You are only peeved because you haven't liked some of the things I have found out. However, since you have an agenda to 'discredit' me you would still say I was lying even if I said a picture of an orange was a picture of an orange!

I have also found the way the OP has been treated by certain members to be particularly vile. Saying that she is full of piss and vinegar is surely something the mods should have picked up on and acted upon. Also slating her because of her age? She's 19 not 9!

You certain members (and you know who you are) are a disgrace to this forum (which could otherwise be a nicer place if it weren't for you being unnecessarily rude and nasty).


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I doubt Meezy was referring to your post surrounding greyhounds.

Also the OP was not slated because of her age 

Sometimes I wonder if some people are actually reading what is written rather than their own made up versions


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

You cannot keep animals from hurting themselves. I had a dog that often got kicked by horses and got ripped on fences. No way would I have kept her away from the horses and on the lead all the time and ruined her life. She enjoyed being an out and about farm dog. My neighbour had a whippet that was usually covered in wounds from going through fences. She was like a patchwork quilt with old scars, wounds that were still healing and wounds that were sutured. She also got kicked in the head and fractured her skull and went round with a deformed head (which I did not approve of). Her lurcher turned a somersault running after a rabbit and broke its neck. It happens, you cannot wrap dogs up in cotton wool.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Muttly said:


> What did you do Linz? I think I would do no 2.


That's what I did. His own vet gave him 8 weeks tops, and then consider PTS. Luckily in Max's case, he went from being paralyzed to being able to go for a 1/2hr walk in about 2 weeks.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> I doubt Meezy was referring to your post surrounding greyhounds.
> 
> Also the OP was not slated because of her age
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if some people are actually reading what is written rather than their own made up versions


Now, now, ST. Let's not be letting the truth get in the way of fantasy.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Saying that she is full of piss and vinegar is surely something the mods should have picked up on and acted upon.


So report it.

And again, shall we see what the expression "full of piss and vinegar" means?

Meaning
*Rowdy, boisterous, full of youthful energy.*
From: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/piss-and-vinegar.html

a phrase used to express an attitude of somebody that is *full of energy, vigor, perhaps rowdiness or excitedness.*
From: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=piss+and+vinegar

noun
*vigor and aggressive energy*
noun phrase

*Energy; vitality; pep, pizzazz*_*:* I was seventeen years old and 150 poundsof piss and vinegar_
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/piss+and+vinegar

I can't believe the commotion one innocent little idiomatic expression has caused. When I said @chickenfoot was full of piss and vinegar, I meant, she is very energetic and passionate about this topic, which clearly she is. How on earth that has turned in to a negative thing is really laughable at this point. 
And because it's Friday and I don't feel like being a mature adult today, I have decided that I shall infuse this expression in to as many interactions today as I can. Just in honor of this poor maligned colorful expression that does not deserve to be maligned in this way. I may even start a petition....


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> That one severe incident? Once.
> 
> ...


I have a Lurcher and can tell you he is one of the least clumsy dogs I have ever met. He's never run into anything while he's been running, he will carefully square himself up before jumping over an obstacle. He will also find the least muddy routes through fields and woods and doesn't go bombing up and down stairs. The times that he has been injured have been because some morons have smashed glass on the paths. The other time he picked up an injury was when he brushed up against a thorny bush as he was peeing.

My Greyhound was quite clumsy for a while after I got her, but she is becoming less so now.

And can we please stop with the comparisons between the injuries that racing dogs pick up and those that are suffered by family dogs? You are trying to justify the injuries in racing because everyday family dogs pick up injuries as well. As has been said already the chances of a racing dog being injured are exponentially higher than an average family dog having a run around a field or an on lead walk.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


> Humans, supposedly rational thinking creatures, do stupid life endangering stuff all the time because it's fun. Why wouldn't a grey that could rationalize do the same


Dogs can't rationalise though. It's up to us to balance allowing them to enjoy life and keeping them safe.

I let the whippets off lead to run on every walk (I wouldn't have sighthounds if I didn't have the opportunity to do so, they really do live to run) but I'm choosy about where I do it to minimise the chance of accidents. It's impossible to avoid risk altogether but it is possible to minimise risk whilst still allowing dogs to do what they love.

I'm not convinced the current oval track set up in greyhound racing is adequately safe for the dogs to justify carrying on using them because the dogs enjoy running.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> So report it.
> 
> And again, shall we see what the expression "full of piss and vinegar" means?
> 
> ...


Ouesi, you are seldom rude to anyone but when you said this I really did wonder why you were hurling insults. Another of these language barriers maybe though chickenfoot is from the same side of the pond as you.
We have a saying that someone is full of wind and piss when they are talking rubbish so I thought you were saying something similar.
I have seen a lot of misunderstandings when someone uses a word or phrase that is common to them but not understood by others - not sure why it has to be brought up after you explained its meaning though.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Ouesi, you are seldom rude to anyone but when you said this I really did wonder why you were hurling insults. Another of these language barriers maybe though chickenfoot is from the same side of the pond as you.
> We have a saying that someone is full of wind and piss when they are talking rubbish so I thought you were saying something similar.
> I have seen a lot of misunderstandings when someone uses a word or phrase that is common to them but not understood by others - not sure why it has to be brought up after you explained its meaning though.


Nope never heard of wind and piss LOL but I'm filing that one away too. Here we just say full of shit. But that's not what piss and vinegar means, piss and vinegar is basically a typical terrier bouncing around full of energy, enthusiasm, and zeal about everything they do. On this side of the pond it's a very common expression, and even if it wasn't, it's not hard in this day of instant information to look something like that up. Though granted, I still don't quite get "taking the piss" as an expression.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't understand how CF would support the sport if it was regulated and they made straight straight tracks? Could you clarify please?

If you are partly against dogs running because humans enter them into races risking injury. How would regulations and straight tracks make a difference? It wouldn't. People believe all injuries are caused by dogs falling over or being bumped into. They aren't a dog can get a cut or split Web running in a straight line at speed. Our broken hock was caused running down the back straight, no other dog bumped into it and the dog didn't fall over. It must have been how the foot landed when running that caused it. If you are against risking injury a straight track wouldn't make a difference.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And can we please stop with the comparisons between the injuries that racing dogs pick up and those that are suffered by family dogs? You are trying to justify the injuries in racing because everyday family dogs pick up injuries as well. As has been said already the chances of a racing dog being injured are exponentially higher than an average family dog having a run around a field or an on lead walk.


No one is justifying racing injuries. What some of us are saying is that sight hounds (excluding yours perhaps) can be pretty notorious at picking up injuries from running. And this occurs in sight hounds which are family pets as well as in those who race.

Look at the overall welfare of the dogs first and foremost and do it with a mind open to the good as well as the bad, and then we might get somewhere in finding a solution.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Blitz said:


> You cannot keep animals from hurting themselves. I had a dog that often got kicked by horses and got ripped on fences. No way would I have kept her away from the horses and on the lead all the time and ruined her life. She enjoyed being an out and about farm dog. My neighbour had a whippet that was usually covered in wounds from going through fences. She was like a patchwork quilt with old scars, wounds that were still healing and wounds that were sutured. She also got kicked in the head and fractured her skull and went round with a deformed head (which I did not approve of). Her lurcher turned a somersault running after a rabbit and broke its neck. It happens, you cannot wrap dogs up in cotton wool.


Since you don't seem to take precautions with your own dogs and minimise the risk of injury with them then it's of little wonder you don't seem to be that bothered by all the injuries that Greyhounds sustain.

If I had a dog who was kicked by horses on a regular basis then said dog would no longer be allowed around horses. If I had a dog who would routinely rip themselves open on fences then I would put a heavy duty coat on them to help prevent injuries.

I will agree that you can't wrap dogs up in cotton wool, but you can sure as heck reduce the risks of injuries!


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I doubt Meezy was referring to your post surrounding greyhounds.
> 
> Also the OP was not slated because of her age
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if some people are actually reading what is written rather than their own made up versions


She did say I wrong about the things I said in this thread.

The OP has also been criticised for being young and naïve.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> That's what I did. His own vet gave him 8 weeks tops, and then consider PTS. Luckily in Max's case, he went from being paralyzed to being able to go for a 1/2hr walk in about 2 weeks.


Awww


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> I don't understand how CF would support the sport if it was regulated and they made straight straight tracks? Could you clarify please?
> 
> If you are partly against dogs running because humans enter them into races risking injury. How would regulations and straight tracks make a difference? It wouldn't. People believe all injuries are caused by dogs falling over or being bumped into. They aren't a dog can get a cut or split Web running in a straight line at speed. Our broken hock was caused running down the back straight, no other dog bumped into it and the dog didn't fall over. It must have been how the foot landed when running that caused it. If you are against risking injury a straight track wouldn't make a difference.


It's because the dogs tend to pack together as they go around bends and when they are packed together there are higher chances of there being collisions. There have also been many instances of traps not being lifted from the tracks and dogs have come round the bend and not been able to stop in time. This results in them slamming into the traps. Countless dogs have been injured because of this. If the tracks were made wide and straight then there would be fewer injuries because of those reasons.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> It's because the dogs tend to pack together as they go around bends and when they are packed together there are higher chances of there being collisions. There have also been many instances of traps not being lifted from the tracks and dogs have come round the bend and not been able to stop in time. This results in them slamming into the traps. Countless dogs have been injured because of this. If the tracks were made wide and straight then there would be fewer injuries because of those reasons.


But there will still be injuries if tracks were straight that's my point. As for traps not being moved in time that must be a rare occurrence, as I've said I went to the track 4 times a week for 4 years and never saw anything like it.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And can we please stop with the comparisons between the injuries that racing dogs pick up and those that are suffered by family dogs? You are trying to justify the injuries in racing because everyday family dogs pick up injuries as well. As has been said already the chances of a racing dog being injured are exponentially higher than an average family dog having a run around a field or an on lead walk.


You know what? Posters are free to make whatever comparisons and parallels they deem appropriate. 
It's not meant to justify injuries to racing dogs, it's simply about keeping things in intelligent perspective.

Dogs get hurt being dogs all the time. And separating out the preventable injuries is not always as clear cut as it may seem. I have a dog who is full of scars from injuries he has inflicted on himself because he is (dare I say it?) full of piss and vinegar. For example, he has impaled himself on a split cedar branch and ended up with stitches and a drain. This was simply running around like a loon in the woods. He never stopped either, it wasn't until I reached down to pet him and my hand came away full of blood that I even realized there was anything wrong with him.

Now, sure, I could keep him on a leash all the time and prevent him running full tilt in the woods, but he would be totally miserable living that kind of life. Okay, what about a rash-guard type coat? Average temps in this part of the world for about 9 months out of the year means he would be in more danger from overheating in a coat than from impaling himself. What may be easily preventable to you, your dog, and your situation doesn't always translate so easily in to another person's life.

The injuries to dogs on the track that can be prevented, should be, and that's where good regulation should come in. But a blanket statement about how GH racing is bad because dogs suffer horrific injuries rings hollow to me. Dogs suffer horrific injuries every single day just living normal lives as pets. The most responsible owner in the world can still end up in a car crash, dog loose on the interstate, and you have a horrific injuriy inthe making. We can't ban everything that could potentially end badly. There has to be some common sense in the mix too.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> But there will still be injuries if tracks were straight that's my point. As for traps not being moved in time that must be a rare occurrence, as I've said I went to the track 4 times a week for 4 years and never saw anything like it.


Here is a video of dogs slamming into traps. A bit of research will tell you it happens more often than you think.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> You know what? Posters are free to make whatever comparisons and parallels they deem appropriate.
> It's not meant to justify injuries to racing dogs, it's simply about keeping things in intelligent perspective.
> 
> Dogs get hurt being dogs all the time. And separating out the preventable injuries is not always as clear cut as it may seem. I have a dog who is full of scars from injuries he has inflicted on himself because he is (dare I say it?) full of piss and vinegar. For example, he has impaled himself on a split cedar branch and ended up with stitches and a drain. This was simply running around like a loon in the woods. He never stopped either, it wasn't until I reached down to pet him and my hand came away full of blood that I even realized there was anything wrong with him.
> ...


I wish I could rep you!  You'll have to give yourself a pat on the back instead.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Here is a video of dogs slamming into traps. A bit of research will tell you it happens more often than you think.


I never said it didn't happen! I said in my 4 years at a track I've never seen anything like it and must be rare. Each track in the UK probably has on average 4 meetings a week every year. How often do the traps not lift?


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> But there will still be injuries if tracks were straight that's my point.


If there were _fewer_ injuries though then surely the straight track would be preferable?

The APGAW inquiry into greyhound racing in 2007 (which admittedly is a while ago but I've been able to find no reference to changes made as a result of it) suggested that track design and maintenance was one of the principal factors causing injuries. If that's the case then clearly not enough is being done to ensure the welfare of the dogs and I think we should be questioning whether it's appropriate for racing, as it currently exists, to continue.

The APGAW report is here, it's definitely worth reading. The section about the numbers of dogs that go "missing" is pretty sobering.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

SingingWhippet said:


> If there were _fewer_ injuries though then surely the straight track would be preferable?
> 
> The APGAW inquiry into greyhound racing in 2007 (which admittedly is a while ago but I've been able to find no reference to changes made as a result of it) suggested that track design and maintenance was one of the principal factors causing injuries. If that's the case then clearly not enough is being done to ensure the welfare of the dogs and I think we should be questioning whether it's appropriate for racing, as it currently exists, to continue.
> 
> The APGAW report is here, it's definitely worth reading. The section about the numbers of dogs that go "missing" is pretty sobering.


But you can't support racing or say racing would be ok if tracks were straight if you don't think its ok that dogs get injured from racing. Entering a dog into any race be it on a straight, square, triangle or circle track you are taking a chance and there could be injury. I never said a straight track wouldn't be preferable to some but what I'm saying is you can't support it full stop if you don't want to risk injury. Injury will happen regardless.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

@ouesi i have stayed out of this so far but since you ,@chickenfoot and i are from the same side of the pond I am going to say you are both full of piss and vinegar.

@chickenfoot this is in no way an insult it is actually a compliment so please drop the hurtful thin and roll with it.I realize this has become a very heated thread and many many people have joined in but some of the stuff being said between other members is said between them because of previous posts and previous arguments.Being a new member you wont know this but you will pick it up.These are arguments best left between them.

Now i am going to get back out of this thread now that i am done adding my bit of humor for the day.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> But you can't support racing or say racing would be ok if tracks were straight *if you don't think its ok that dogs get injured from racing.*


What I don't think is ok is that there are things that _could_ be done to make tracks safer and reduce injuries that _aren't_ being done, such as improving the design and maintenance of the tracks. The issue isn't that some dogs get injured (as you rightly say dogs will always get injured racing, as they will doing the normal everyday things we all let them do), it's that the industry isn't doing enough to minimise the likelihood of injuries. As it currently is racing is riskier for the dogs than it needs to be.

Like I said, I let my whippets off lead to run every day but I don't let them off in unsafe areas just because there's already a risk of injury from running alone.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

SingingWhippet said:


> What I don't think is ok is that there are things that _could_ be done to make tracks safer and reduce injuries that _aren't_ being done, such as improving the design and maintenance of the tracks. The issue isn't that some dogs get injured (as you rightly say dogs will always get injured racing, as they will doing the normal everyday things we all let them do), it's that the industry isn't doing enough to minimise the likelihood of injuries. As it currently is racing is riskier for the dogs than it needs to be.
> 
> Like I said, I let my whippets off lead to run every day but I don't let them off in unsafe areas just because there's already a risk of injury from running alone.


I do agree with you there that if there are things that could be done to make racing safer, they should be. And I feel this way about many animal industries, not just GH racing.

But I also understand the frustration of those saying stuff happens even when you do your best to prevent it.

I had a TB I used to event with. That horse had zero sense of self preservation, and it's a wonder neither of us got killed out there. I was young and stupid then, and didn't really think about the danger, but looking back, I cringe at some of the stuff we did, and no one hauled us off the course to tell us we were a danger to ourselves.

And you know what? That horse lived to be nearly 30, sound every day of his life, perfectly fine. Go figure. Worst injury he ever had he did to himself one night in a comfy box stall. I put him up, came in the next morning, and he had ripped half the skin on his chest off. I searched that stall top to bottom for a loose nail, loose rail, anything sharp, found absolutely nothing. To this day, I have no idea how he managed to shred his chest open sitting in a box stall. But then, horses are good about sitting in a padded room and figuring out how to get injured.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> Possible, but unlikely... They don't sound like they're the type to actually care enough to visit a site like this.





CavalierOwner said:


> I don't understand how CF would support the sport if it was regulated and they made straight straight tracks? Could you clarify please?
> 
> If you are partly against dogs running because humans enter them into races risking injury. How would regulations and straight tracks make a difference? It wouldn't. People believe all injuries are caused by dogs falling over or being bumped into. They aren't a dog can get a cut or split Web running in a straight line at speed. Our broken hock was caused running down the back straight, no other dog bumped into it and the dog didn't fall over. It must have been how the foot landed when running that caused it. If you are against risking injury a straight track wouldn't make a difference.


You know how when you are hear a new word or have been discussing something for the first time it crops up again. Well, I had the vet out to a pony with a hole in his neck muscle and no sign of any external injury this morning. Out of the blue he said greyhounds are prone to muscle tears because they are running on a track with bends.



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Since you don't seem to take precautions with your own dogs and minimise the risk of injury with them then it's of little wonder you don't seem to be that bothered by all the injuries that Greyhounds sustain.
> 
> If I had a dog who was kicked by horses on a regular basis then said dog would no longer be allowed around horses. If I had a dog who would routinely rip themselves open on fences then I would put a heavy duty coat on them to help prevent injuries.
> 
> I will agree that you can't wrap dogs up in cotton wool, but you can sure as heck reduce the risks of injuries!


Yeah, your average farm dog would have a wonderful life not being allowed round the livestock or fences and wrapped up in a coat that would actually get caught on fences and cause the dog even greater injuries when she was working sheep. Pity I never thought about keeping the poor dog shut up 24/7 and chasing the sheep myself. it would have saved me some vets bills. The example of the whippet and lurcher were not my dogs in case that did not sink in. All working dogs are bred and kept for a job which in some cases will result in injuries.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Blitz said:


> You know how when you are hear a new word or have been discussing something for the first time it crops up again. Well, I had the vet out to a pony with a hole in his neck muscle and no sign of any external injury this morning. Out of the blue he said greyhounds are prone to muscle tears because they are running on a track with bends.
> 
> Yeah, your average farm dog would have a wonderful life not being allowed round the livestock or fences and wrapped up in a coat that would actually get caught on fences and cause the dog even greater injuries when she was working sheep. Pity I never thought about keeping the poor dog shut up 24/7 and chasing the sheep myself. it would have saved me some vets bills. The example of the whippet and lurcher were not my dogs in case that did not sink in. All working dogs are bred and kept for a job which in some cases will result in injuries.


You said YOUR dog was being kicked by horses not sheep. Does your (not your neighbour's) dog round up horses as well or is that not one of her jobs? I would also rather a dog came back with a ripped coat and not ripped up skin. Besides a properly fitted coat shouldn't cause a dog many problems.

I did read your post properly and knew you said your neighbour's dogs had been killed/injured. That is why I referred to YOUR dog.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> . Besides a properly fitted coat shouldn't cause a dog many problems.


Apart from potentially getting hung up in a hedge, caught by wire fencing, etc...etc...Putting a coat on a working farm dog is a ridiculous thing to suggest. I'm sorry, but it is!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> You said YOUR dog was being kicked by horses not sheep. Does your (not your neighbour's) dog round up horses as well or is that not one of her jobs? I would also rather a dog came back with a ripped coat and not ripped up skin. Besides a properly fitted coat shouldn't cause a dog many problems.
> 
> I did read your post properly and knew you said your neighbour's dogs had been killed/injured. That is why I referred to YOUR dog.


Yes this dog did round up the horses. Most collies end up getting kicked by horses or cattle and never seem to learn to keep their distance. 
Never heard anything quite so stupid as suggesting a farm dog wears a coat - can you imagine how long it could spend hooked up on a fence waiting to be rescued.
My current dogs do wear coats but they are not allowed free range on the property as they are not working dogs.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

SingingWhippet said:


> If there were _fewer_ injuries though then surely the straight track would be preferable?
> 
> The APGAW inquiry into greyhound racing in 2007 (which admittedly is a while ago but I've been able to find no reference to changes made as a result of it) suggested that track design and maintenance was one of the principal factors causing injuries. If that's the case then clearly not enough is being done to ensure the welfare of the dogs and I think we should be questioning whether it's appropriate for racing, as it currently exists, to continue.
> 
> The APGAW report is here, it's definitely worth reading. The section about the numbers of dogs that go "missing" is pretty sobering.


I think the bottom line is that there are MANY things that *could* change in the world of GH racing that would make it safer and improve the lives and welfare for the dogs involved, however, it would appear that the majority of people actually involved in the industry are not bothered about the dogs enough to do anything about it.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> I think the bottom line is that there are MANY things that *could* change in the world of GH racing that would make it safer and improve the lives and welfare for the dogs involved, however, it would appear that the majority of people actually involved in the industry are not bothered about the dogs enough to do anything about it.


I really hope you are wrong there and it is a minority who treat the dogs badly.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Apart from potentially getting hung up in a hedge, caught by wire fencing, etc...etc...Putting a coat on a working farm dog is a ridiculous thing to suggest. I'm sorry, but it is!


Would it not be better for a coat to get caught in a fence or hedge than for a dog's skin to get ripped to shreds? I have seen what a thorny bush can do to skin and I shudder to think of what barbed wire could do.



Blitz said:


> Yes this dog did round up the horses. Most collies end up getting kicked by horses or cattle and never seem to learn to keep their distance.
> Never heard anything quite so stupid as suggesting a farm dog wears a coat - can you imagine how long it could spend hooked up on a fence waiting to be rescued.
> My current dogs do wear coats but they are not allowed free range on the property as they are not working dogs.


So working farm dogs are allowed to wander freely without supervision? If somebody were watching them then they wouldn't have to wait for ages to be rescued. Besides when they are working is there not usually a person working with them or do they go and round up livestock on their own?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Would it not be better for a coat to get caught in a fence or hedge than for a dog's skin to get ripped to shreds? I have seen what a thorny bush can do to skin and I shudder to think of what barbed wire could do.
> 
> So working farm dogs are allowed to wander freely without supervision? If somebody were watching them then they wouldn't have to wait for ages to be rescued. Besides when they are working is there not usually a person working with them or do they go and round up livestock on their own?


And does the dog wear this good, thick coat during the hot Summer months?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> I think the bottom line is that there are MANY things that *could* change in the world of GH racing that would make it safer and improve the lives and welfare for the dogs involved, however, it would appear that the majority of people actually involved in the industry are not bothered about the dogs enough to do anything about it.


I think that is quite a blanket statement because it seems that there are actually many in the industry who do care for the welfare of the dogs. 
None of us on this thread have a true knowledge of how many that is or how many do not give a toss about the greys. We are all guessing, either from personal experience or from articles which are naturally biased against greyhound racing.
Bottom line. We don't know.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I really hope you are wrong there and it is a minority who treat the dogs badly.


I would hope so too, but I fear that the opposite is true. Then again, it depends on what classes as "badly".



silvi said:


> I think that is quite a blanket statement because it seems that there are actually many in the industry who do care for the welfare of the dogs.
> None of us on this thread have a true knowledge of how many that is or how many do not give a toss about the greys. We are all guessing, either from personal experience or from articles which are naturally biased against greyhound racing.
> Bottom line. We don't know.


I agree it is a blanket statement, but that's my opinion - right or wrong


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> You said YOUR dog was being kicked by horses not sheep. Does your (not your neighbour's) dog round up horses as well or is that not one of her jobs? I would also rather a dog came back with a ripped coat and not ripped up skin. Besides a properly fitted coat shouldn't cause a dog many problems.


See this is where you lose me.
I'm all about keeping animals safe and treating them well, but putting a coat on a farm dog? Are you seriously suggesting that? Properly fitted should't cause many problems? Have you ever been on a farm LOL and watched dogs working?

I'm a good old farm girl myself, and am very familiar with dogs who push their luck near hooves. Collies and ACDs are notorious for this. They're working and some just aren't as careful as others.

Maybe wolves shouldn't chase elk either should they? Might get kicked by them too. I suppose we should intervene there too LOL


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Would it not be better for a coat to get caught in a fence or hedge than for a dog's skin to get ripped to shreds? I have seen what a thorny bush can do to skin and I shudder to think of what barbed wire could do.
> 
> So working farm dogs are allowed to wander freely without supervision? If somebody were watching them then they wouldn't have to wait for ages to be rescued. Besides when they are working is there not usually a person working with them or do they go and round up livestock on their own?


Have you ever been to a farm? You're really fascinating me now with your suggestions. Are you being serious or sarcastic?


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Sweety said:


> And does the dog wear this good, thick coat during the hot Summer months?


Only when working.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hard to imagine the dogs coming out in good, thick coats on the next series of 'One Man and His Dog'.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

ouesi said:


> See this is where you lose me.
> I'm all about keeping animals safe and treating them well, but putting a coat on a farm dog? Are you seriously suggesting that? Properly fitted should't cause many problems? Have you ever been on a farm LOL and watched dogs working?
> 
> I'm a good old farm girl myself, and am very familiar with dogs who push their luck near hooves. Collies and ACDs are notorious for this. They're working and some just aren't as careful as others.
> ...


you are really full of piss and vinegar today.Is it because it is Friday?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> You cannot keep animals from hurting themselves. I had a dog that often got kicked by horses and got ripped on fences. No way would I have kept her away from the horses and on the lead all the time and ruined her life. She enjoyed being an out and about farm dog. My neighbour had a whippet that was usually covered in wounds from going through fences. She was like a patchwork quilt with old scars, wounds that were still healing and wounds that were sutured. She also got kicked in the head and fractured her skull and went round with a deformed head (which I did not approve of). Her lurcher turned a somersault running after a rabbit and broke its neck. It happens, you cannot wrap dogs up in cotton wool.


Indeed. My friends greyhound ran right into a tree at full speed, instantly breaking his spine and dying. Such accidents happen with breeds that run at very high speeds.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> I would hope so too, but I fear that the opposite is true. Then again, it depends on what classes as "badly".


And there lies one immediate dilemma.
Do you think it is cruel to keep dogs in roomy, comfortable kennels, for example? Or is it cruel to re-home them after their racing days are done?
Because some anti-greyhound racing advocates would argue that this is cruel.


Lurcherlad said:


> I agree it is a blanket statement, but that's my opinion - right or wrong


Fair enough


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I have the perfect solution....









From a wordpress site:
https://birdbrainsanddogtales.files...-with-mini-walter-with-thought-bubbles-lr.jpg


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Hard to imagine the dogs coming out in good, thick coats on the next series of 'One Man and His Dog'.


Okay, I have to admit that made me laugh


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Would it not be better for a coat to get caught in a fence or hedge than for a dog's skin to get ripped to shreds? I have seen what a thorny bush can do to skin and I shudder to think of what barbed wire could do.
> 
> So working farm dogs are allowed to wander freely without supervision? If somebody were watching them then they wouldn't have to wait for ages to be rescued. Besides when they are working is there not usually a person working with them or do they go and round up livestock on their own?


You clearly know zero about the lives of working farm dogs 
I would be interested in your thoughts on how you would stop the dog overheating? Putting a coat on a thin skinned dog is completely different to putting a coat on a dog that will have a thick coat of their own and then expecting them to achieve a full days working!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> You clearly know zero about the lives of working farm dogs
> I would be interested in your thoughts on how you would stop the dog overheating? Putting a coat on a thin skinned dog is completely different to putting a coat on a dog that will have a thick coat of their own and then expecting them to achieve a full days working!


Even a thin-skinned dog would have problems in the summer heat when wearing a coat.
Our greyhound cross could over-heat just as quickly in the heat as she could get over-chilled in the cold.
They do actually need care in any extreme weather and the greyhound owners I have seen are very aware of this.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Only when working.


Oh, I see. So, when the dog is at it's most active, in an eighty degree heatwave, it's going to be wearing a good, thick coat?

I would say this poor, beleaguered dog has way more chance of collapsing from heatstroke than it has of injuring itself on a bit of fencing.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Oh, I see. So, when the dog is at it's most active, in an eighty degree heatwave, it's going to be wearing a good, thick coat?
> 
> I would say this poor, beleaguered dog has way more chance of collapsing from heatstroke than it has of injuring itself on a bit of fencing.


Wouldn't you say it would be cruel to work them in a heat wave anyway? What with their already thick coats?

If I had a dog who was injuring themselves on hedges and fencing on a regular basis then I would be looking for a solution or I would only let them off in wide open spaces. I wouldn't allow them to keep on injuring themselves on such a regular basis! Would you not say that allowing a dog to be kicked regularly kicked by horses and letting them injure themselves on fencing is cruel or is it just my suggestion of putting a coat on them that is cruel?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Wouldn't you say it would be cruel to work them in a heat wave anyway? What with their already thick coats?
> 
> If I had a dog who was injuring themselves on hedges and fencing on a regular basis then I would be looking for a solution or I would only let them off in wide open spaces. I wouldn't allow them to keep on injuring themselves on such a regular basis! Would you not say that allowing a dog to be kicked regularly kicked by horses and letting them injure themselves on fencing is cruel or is it just my suggestion of putting a coat on them that is cruel?


So, you think it's cruel to work them in a heatwave, with their already thick coats, but you wouldn't be concerned about slapping a good, thick coat on top?

I asked you when they should wear this coat and you said "Only when they're working".


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Wouldn't you say it would be cruel to work them in a heat wave anyway? What with their already thick coats?
> 
> If I had a dog who was injuring themselves on hedges and fencing on a regular basis then I would be looking for a solution or I would only let them off in wide open spaces. I wouldn't allow them to keep on injuring themselves on such a regular basis! Would you not say that allowing a dog to be kicked regularly kicked by horses and letting them injure themselves on fencing is cruel or is it just my suggestion of putting a coat on them that is cruel?


Well bully for you with your pet dogs...so are we to ban shepherding with dogs then because there is a potential risk they could get hurt? What about service dogs? What about agility? What about dryland mushing, bike jouring or plain old mushing on snow? What about running around in the field or through bushes?

Shall we just only keep dogs if we can wrap them up in big thick coats and possibly a body brace to help prevent neck injuries!!

A dog with a proper thick coat is perfectly capable to keep themselves cool in the heat so long as you don't wrap extra layers on them...you may want to brush up on how a double coat works on the hairier breeds


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Sweety said:


> So, you think it's cruel to work them in a heatwave, with their already thick coats, but you wouldn't be concerned about slapping a good, thick coat on top?
> 
> I asked you when they should wear this coat and you said "Only when they're working".


Round and round and round we go where it stops nobody knows.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Sweety said:


> So, you think it's cruel to work them in a heatwave, with their already thick coats, but you wouldn't be concerned about slapping a good, thick coat on top?
> 
> I asked you when they should wear this coat and you said "Only when they're working".


And you have answered my question (which I answered) with a question.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> You clearly know zero about the lives of working farm dogs
> I would be interested in your thoughts on how you would stop the dog overheating? Putting a coat on a thin skinned dog is completely different to putting a coat on a dog that will have a thick coat of their own and then expecting them to achieve a full days working!


I have not been on a working agricultural farm (although I have had plenty of experience working with horses), but there is a friend of my family who I have known for more than half of my life who is a retired farmer. He has 65+ years of experience working with farm dogs and have learned a lot from both him and his friends (who are both retired and still working). So I'm not clueless thank you very much!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I have not been on a working agricultural farm (although I have had plenty of experience working with horses), but there is a friend of my family who I have known for more than half of my life who is a retired farmer. He has 65+ years of experience working with farm dogs and have learned a lot from both him and his friends (who are both retired and still working). So I'm not clueless thank you very much!


Did he used to put good, thick coats on his farm dogs?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

With all this mention of 'good thick coats' we are going to get lots of internet searches from people choosing their winter wardrobe


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

silvi said:


> With all this mention of 'good thick coats' we are going to get lots of internet searches from people choosing their winter wardrobe


And not just their winter wardrobe.

Apparently, these good, thick coats have to be worn all Summer too ............ even when the sun is cracking the pavements.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Did he used to put good, thick coats on his farm dogs?


Again no answer to my question.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Wouldn't you say it would be cruel to work them in a heat wave anyway? What with their already thick coats?
> 
> If I had a dog who was injuring themselves on hedges and fencing on a regular basis then I would be looking for a solution or I would only let them off in wide open spaces. I wouldn't allow them to keep on injuring themselves on such a regular basis! Would you not say that allowing a dog to be kicked regularly kicked by horses and letting them injure themselves on fencing is cruel or is it just my suggestion of putting a coat on them that is cruel?


I'll answer your question.
No, I don't think it's cruel to work dogs in the heat. Working dogs are incredibly fit and bred for hardiness, they're just fine working in heat that many dogs are not comfortable in. If the stock is okay inthe heat, the dogs should be too. They would not be okay with a heavy coat on though.

Nor do I think it's cruel when dogs repeatedly injure themselves out there doing whatever it is that dogs do. Active, lively dogs are always going to be more prone to bumps and scrapes than couch potatoes.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> So I'm not clueless thank you very much!


Then that makes your suggestions that a working dog should wear a thick coat even more laughable.
I grew up on a working farm and I am honestly lost for words that you can not see why putting a coat on a working dog is a stupid idea.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Again no answer to my question.


Right. Yes, working dogs sometimes get injured, but in the main, they're doing what they love to do, what they were bred to do.

Is it better to keep them indoors and only walk them onlead, to keep them safe?

Children like to play out. They often collect injuries, they fall and skin their knees, cut themselves, bang their heads. We could keep them indoors all day, that way they would never get hurt.

I knew a little Jack Russell, Mansell, who lived on a busy farm. He slept in the farmhouse at night, next to the Aga, and he was outdoors all day, with his Dad. He hunted rats in the barn, ran in the meadows, rode the tractor at haymaking and went to the Auction every week. He had a wonderful life.

When he was eight years old, a haylage bale fell on him and he was killed instantly. Cruel? That little dog packed more into his eight years than most dogs in a lifetime.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Ouesi, you are seldom rude to anyone but when you said this I really did wonder why you were hurling insults. Another of these language barriers maybe though chickenfoot is from the same side of the pond as you.
> We have a saying that someone is full of wind and piss when they are talking rubbish so I thought you were saying something similar.
> I have seen a lot of misunderstandings when someone uses a word or phrase that is common to them but not understood by others - not sure why it has to be brought up after you explained its meaning though.


It was a misunderstanding completely as I've never ever heard of that or sucking eggs or whatever so I think it's fairly understandable why I thought it was an insult. It was presented in a negative way and with no context, it sounds quite rude and that's just fact. Regardless of the true meaning

I honestly thought you were from UK because those are things I have never heard in my life
:/


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I find the argument for working dogs doing what they love, exactly the same as the indoor vs outdoor cat debate. Cats able to roam free, doing what they love best, even if there are greater risks in doing so.

There are risks in anything we do with our pets, but sometimes you do have to weigh up quality of life and make decisions based on that. Not that I'm saying throw your dogs into dangerous situations, and in the case of Greyhound racing, I agree that tighter regulations should be in place. That said I feel racing is a dying sport anyway, at least physical racing. Many people see horse/greyhound racing as 'cruel' and no longer support it. Virtual racing will replace it all one day IMO.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Right. Yes, working dogs sometimes get injured, but in the main, they're doing what they love to do, what they were bred to do.
> 
> Is it better to keep them indoors and only walk them onlead, to keep them safe?
> 
> ...


That's not what anyone is saying

The sport produces mass amounts of injuries. The injuries top any other sporting activity for dogs. At least 1 dog dies by injury every 3 days in Florida. I don't want to hear more about comparisons to how often a dog dies in a shelter because we're talking about an industry with little regulation that results in the death of several dogs. All I'm asking is for more regulation, and if it's impossible to keep dogs from routinely dying then I say it's not worth it.

My point was missed completely. My point is yes, they may get hurt. That's no news, my dog gets hurt at the dog park all the time. But I wouldn't ever want to place him in a situation where he's very likely to get injured. I wouldn't put him in front of a moving truck and say "run away!" And hope he lived. He may get injured in day to day life but I would never want to purposefully set him in a situation where he is likely to get hurt, even if he liked what he was doing (chasing a raccoon)

The responsible thing to do would be to minimize injury by making the track a straight shot and putting up guard rails as well as making them wider so they aren't so close together. If that can't be done then why put your dog into a track where the odds he could get seriously injured resulting in death are so high? That's not caring for your dog that's selfish greed.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> But there will still be injuries if tracks were straight that's my point. As for traps not being moved in time that must be a rare occurrence, as I've said I went to the track 4 times a week for 4 years and never saw anything like it.


Yeah but maybe dozens of dogs wouldn't be dying every week and we could reduce fatalities down to that of say agility. Dogs in agility can get injured but precautions about the structure of the framework on all of the hoops and hurdles are made so the dogs risk of injury is low. Not that hard if you care for the dogs involved.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Ohh I'm so Mystic Meg...Do hope OP is telling her new bestie to keep it on topic and not to discuss dogs in big thick jackets...


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> I never said it didn't happen! I said in my 4 years at a track I've never seen anything like it and must be rare. Each track in the UK probably has on average 4 meetings a week every year. How often do the traps not lift?


Your experience at one track that may have been regulated and seems to be a very responsible track by your words does not dictate what all tracks are like and by any means mean it's "rare"


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

silvi said:


> And there lies one immediate dilemma.
> Do you think it is cruel to keep dogs in roomy, comfortable kennels, for example? Or is it cruel to re-home them after their racing days are done?
> Because some anti-greyhound racing advocates would argue that this is cruel.
> 
> Fair enough


I think it's unfair on the dog that they have to be passed from owner to trainer to rescue to another owner in such a short span of their lives which must be rather stressful as well as the issue with potentially not being adopted and simply being euthanized instead due to over breeding of greyhounds because people would rather toss away their old grey and get a shiny new one regardless of their uncertain fates and I'd hope any dog loving person would agree there's something a little wrong with this


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Ohh I'm so Mystic Meg...Do hope OP is telling her new bestie to keep it on topic and not to discuss dogs in big thick jackets...


Another demeaning and irrelevant comment by Meezy. We aren't "new besties" we have a mutual agreement that these dogs are treated poorly. Get a grip


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I'll answer your question.
> No, I don't think it's cruel to work dogs in the heat. Working dogs are incredibly fit and bred for hardiness, they're just fine working in heat that many dogs are not comfortable in. If the stock is okay inthe heat, the dogs should be too. They would not be okay with a heavy coat on though.
> 
> Nor do I think it's cruel when dogs repeatedly injure themselves out there doing whatever it is that dogs do. Active, lively dogs are always going to be more prone to bumps and scrapes than couch potatoes.


Really, and those greyhounds that died of heat exhaustion on a trip to Arizona a couple years back with some being pregnant? Don't you think that could have been avoided? Just A little heat right! I think you're underestimating how hot it can get for them whether they're racing or not. Arizona gets temps of 113 degrees. I worked in a blueberry farm and the workers weren't allowed to pick above heats of 100 degrees and they aren't running at full speed around a farm. Why make dogs race at 113?

http://m.tucson.com/news/local/grey...5bca-888e-7f6eae293c55.html?mobile_touch=true

I also wouldn't call paralyzation a "bump or scrape"


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> That's not what anyone is saying
> 
> The sport produces mass amounts of injuries. The injuries top any other sporting activity for dogs. At least 1 dog dies by injury every 3 days in Florida. I don't want to hear more about comparisons to how often a dog dies in a shelter because we're talking about an industry with little regulation that results in the death of several dogs. All I'm asking is for more regulation, and if it's impossible to keep dogs from routinely dying then I say it's not worth it.
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about Greyhound Racing.

I suggest you read the thread and catch up.


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I really hope you are wrong there and it is a minority who treat the dogs badly.


Well with all of the tracks shut down and a lot in jeopardy of that id say that some people need to just open their eyes and take a look at what's going on. You don't have to visit every track in America to realize that something very terrible is happening, and clearly government officials agree.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

I have to comment that I have lived with and around farm dogs and they never had coats on, that would just get in the way and make it harder for them, but we also didn't have barbed wire and we didn't let the dog run around in thorn bushes.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Really, and those greyhounds that died of heat exhaustion on a trip to Arizona a couple years back with some being pregnant? Don't you think that could have been avoided? Just A little heat right! I think you're underestimating how hot it can get for them whether they're racing or not. Arizona gets temps of 113 degrees. I worked in a blueberry farm and the workers weren't allowed to pick above heats of 100 degrees and they aren't running at full speed around a farm. Why make dogs race at 113?
> 
> http://m.tucson.com/news/local/grey...5bca-888e-7f6eae293c55.html?mobile_touch=true
> 
> I also wouldn't call paralyzation a "bump or scrape"


What does my post you quoted have to do with dogs dying in Arizona?
The dogs did not die because they were racing in the heat, they were being transported and they died from heat during transport.


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> What does my post you quoted have to do with dogs dying in Arizona?
> The dogs did not die because they were racing in the heat, they were being transported and they died from heat during transport.


Yes but it's the heat that killed them and also poor regulation that caused them to die because they could have just pulled over to check the temp in the vehicle. They even lied and said there was a "severe rainstorm" and they couldn't check the dogs but that was disputed after weather reports returned with no rainstorm in any of the areas they drove when they did.

Also your suggestion that greyhounds should run in heat waves is idiotic and ignorant. Please read this and inform yourself why greyhounds should NEVER exercise in heat.

http://www.gcnm.org/heatnews.html


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Your experience at one track that may have been regulated and seems to be a very responsible track by your words does not dictate what all tracks are like and by any means mean it's "rare"


I worked at more than 1 track!! I was attached to one track but travelled to many others. If you have a dog in an open race you travel to different tracks which can be anywhere in the country. I have far more first hand experience at seeing what goes on at a track than most on here.

Your research doesn't prove that all tracks are crap and that traps not lifting happens frequently. Why is it that what you've read is right and what I've witnessed with my own two eyes wrong?


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> I worked at more than 1 track!! I was attached to one track but travelled to many others. If you have a dog in an open race you travel to different tracks which can be anywhere in the country. I have far more first hand experience at seeing what goes on at a track than most on here.
> 
> Your research doesn't prove that all tracks are crap and that traps not lifting happens frequently. Why is it that what you've read is right and what I've witnessed with my own two eyes wrong?


Where did I say traps not lifting happens frequently?

I'm saying you've had experience but you can't make generalization about all tracks, especially ones in countries you've never been to


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Also your suggestion that greyhounds should run in heat waves is idiotic and ignorant. Please read this and inform yourself why greyhounds should NEVER exercise in heat.
> 
> http://www.gcnm.org/heatnews.html


Where did I suggest GHs should run in heat waves?!?!!


----------



## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Where did I say traps not lifting happens frequently?
> 
> I'm saying you've had experience but you can't make generalization about all tracks, especially ones in countries you've never been to


Neither can you!! You have zero experience of what happens behind the scenes and you don't know what tracks in the UK are like.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

LOL, the britishism "gobsmacked" seems appropriate here. I'm literally reading this thread with my gob open and a very confused look on my face!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Well with all of the tracks shut down and a lot in jeopardy of that id say that some people need to just open their eyes and take a look at what's going on. *You don't have to visit every track in America* to realize that something very terrible is happening, and clearly government officials agree.


And I dare say none of us will. You are trying to enforce your views of American tracks on to those of us with experience of English tracks which seems somewhat pointless. Much like me trying to lecture women in Saudi Arabia about how acceptable it is to drive around.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Where did I say traps not lifting happens frequently?
> 
> I'm saying you've had experience but you can't make generalization about all tracks, especially ones in countries you've never been to


And huskys taking ther rigs off ends of ice happens now and again too. I suppose it's cruel to use them to pull rigs as they were bred for. Just in case they get injured of course. Better domestic the lot of em and keep them on leads lest they get hurt doing something they're designed to do.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Yes but it's the heat that killed them and also poor regulation that caused them to die because they could have just pulled over to check the temp in the vehicle. They even lied and said there was a "severe rainstorm" and they couldn't check the dogs but that was disputed after weather reports returned with no rainstorm in any of the areas they drove when they did.


It is already illegal to cook a dog in a car!
That is why they were prosecuted, found guilty, and fined.

Same thing happened a few years ago with some show dogs. Idiot handler left his charges in a van and they all died of heat exhaustion. It's already illegal what he did, and he was charged, prosecuted, and found guilty.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Also your suggestion that greyhounds should run in heat waves is idiotic and ignorant. Please read this and inform yourself why greyhounds should NEVER exercise in heat.
> 
> http://www.gcnm.org/heatnews.html


Sorry what???

There are the odd occasional incidents where show dogs tragically die in transit due to heat too due to unfortunate circumstances such as circulation not happening as designed, air temperatures not regulated as it should be etc. Should we ban travelling to shows? For a breed designed and originating in Egypt they are pretty good at taking heat thanks.


----------



## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Your experience at one track that may have been regulated and seems to be a very responsible track by your words does not dictate what all tracks are like and by any means mean it's "rare"





chickenfoot said:


> Where did I say traps not lifting happens frequently?
> 
> I'm saying you've had experience but you can't make generalization about all tracks, especially ones in countries you've never been to


You basically said in the first quote that because I haven't seen it it doesn't mean its rare.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> You basically said in the first quote that because I haven't seen it it doesn't mean its rare.


?? I just said it's not fair to say it's RARE. Not that it never happens. :/


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Excuse me while I go bang my head on a wall........brb


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> It is already illegal to cook a dog in a car!
> That is why they were prosecuted, found guilty, and fined.
> 
> Same thing happened a few years ago with some show dogs. Idiot handler left his charges in a van and they all died of heat exhaustion. It's already illegal what he did, and he was charged, prosecuted, and found guilty.


Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it won't happen (obviously, much like live baiting that still happens) which is why I'm saying TIGHTER REGULATION


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> And huskys taking ther rigs off ends of ice happens now and again too. I suppose it's cruel to use them to pull rigs as they were bred for. Just in case they get injured of course. Better domestic the lot of em and keep them on leads lest they get hurt doing something they're designed to do.


It just doesn't happen now and again that's my point!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> *Please read this and inform yourself *why greyhounds should NEVER exercise in heat.


Do you never read any friendly advice you are given?
It has already been suggested to you, in a friendly way too, that your way of addressing other posters comes across like a school teacher talking to naughty pupils.
It winds people up, especially those who have plenty of experience of greyhounds and of the effects of heat on animals in general.

I would also suggest you read back on your thread on the posts you must have missed and you will realise why certain arguments are being made, particularly those about dogs wearing protective thick coats....


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> Excuse me while I go bang my head on a wall........brb


See, this is why we should outlaw brick walls. People are repeatedly injuring themselves on them.
Actually, maybe you just need a good sturdy coat so you don't hurt yourself.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> And I dare say none of us will. You are trying to enforce your views of American tracks on to those of us with experience of English tracks which seems somewhat pointless. Much like me trying to lecture women in Saudi Arabia about how acceptable it is to drive around.


No!? I'm absolutely not I've stated so many times these are ONLY views of America tracks and I have no knowledge of any others


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> LOL, the britishism "gobsmacked" seems appropriate here. I'm literally reading this thread with my gob open and a very confused look on my face!


I'd say break out the goats but feel that would go down like a fart in a wet suit, and frankly the honey badger in me, is just well doing what it does best  Heres another British saying for you ," you can't educate pork"


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> See, this is why we should outlaw brick walls. People are repeatedly injuring themselves on them.
> Actually, maybe you just need a good sturdy coat so you don't hurt yourself.


Actually crying with laughter. :Woot


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it won't happen (obviously, much like live baiting that still happens) which is why I'm saying TIGHTER REGULATION


The two incidents where dogs died in hot vehicles happened because the humans in charge didn't follow the regulations already in place (or any common sense either apparently). How is tightening regulations for people who don't follow regulations going to ameliorate anything?

And please answer my other post where I asked you to explain where I said greyhounds should be raced in a heat wave?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> No!? I'm absolutely not I've stated so many times these are ONLY views of America tracks and I have no knowledge of any others


Did someone, by any chance, give you a huge shovel for your Birthday?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> Actually crying with laughter. :Woot


Glad to be of service 
I figure we either laugh or cry at this point, you've covered all bases by doing both


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

silvi said:


> Do you never read any friendly advice you are given?
> It has already been suggested to you, in a friendly way too, that your way of addressing other posters comes across like a school teacher talking to naughty pupils.
> It winds people up, especially those who have plenty of experience of greyhounds and of the effects of heat on animals in general.
> 
> I would also suggest you read back on your thread on the posts you must have missed and you will realise why certain arguments are being made, particularly those about dogs wearing protective thick coats....


Sorry if it's just mind blowing to me that people can suggest working their dogs in the heat seeing a heat stroke Is an extreme problem, but I am in utter shock that people are saying that they'd take the risk of heat stroke just for their own benefit! I can not even be apart of this thread anymore because I am absolutely appalled and I wish your Own dogs luck and hope.

I also stated I would never put a thick coat on a working dog BECAUSE it's a heat stroke danger.

I am at a loss for words!


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

chickenfoot said:


> I am at a loss for words!


Hallelujah


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> Sorry if it's just mind blowing to me that people can suggest working their dogs in the heat seeing a heat stroke Is an extreme problem, but I am in utter shock that people are saying that they'd take the risk of heat stroke just for their own benefit! I can not even be apart of this thread anymore because I am absolutely appalled and I wish your Own dogs luck and hope.
> 
> I also stated I would never put a thick coat on a working dog BECAUSE it's a heat stroke danger.
> 
> I am at a loss for words!


I'll try again....
Only one person on this forum suggested that a dog should wear a thick coat (even in summer it seems) as protection and that was the person who posted the videos about the dangers of greyhound racing.
Please read all the answers to your own thread and then you will see where all talk about 'thick coats' is coming from.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

silvi said:


> I'll try again....
> Only one person on this forum suggested that a dog should wear a thick coat (even in summer it seems) as protection and that was the person who posted the videos about the dangers of greyhound racing.
> Please read all the answers to your own thread and then you will see where all talk about 'thick coats' is coming from.


What are you on!! I know who said it and I was saying I disagree with that point but that doesn't mean I disagree with all points! I agree with some of what you and others have had to say but obviously I don't agree with it all so that's irrelevant!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Sorry if it's just mind blowing to me that people can suggest working their dogs in the heat seeing a heat stroke Is an extreme problem, but I am in utter shock that people are saying that they'd take the risk of heat stroke just for their own benefit! I can not even be apart of this thread anymore because I am absolutely appalled and I wish your Own dogs luck and hope.
> 
> I also stated I would never put a thick coat on a working dog BECAUSE it's a heat stroke danger.
> 
> I am at a loss for words!


Really?

Thank you Lord.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am feeling sorry for chickenfoot. She is outnumbered and outclassed. Chickenfoot, why not back off, admit to yourself that you have made a mistake in the way you have put forward your ideals and then enjoy the forum and learn from the different threads.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> What are you on!! I know who said it and I was saying I disagree with that point but that doesn't mean I disagree with all points! I agree with some of what you and others have had to say but obviously I don't agree with it all so that's irrelevant!


Never mind.................


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

@tinaK you made me lol


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Sorry if it's just mind blowing to me that people can suggest working their dogs in the heat seeing a heat stroke Is an extreme problem, but I am in utter shock that people are saying that they'd take the risk of heat stroke just for their own benefit! I can not even be apart of this thread anymore because I am absolutely appalled and I wish your Own dogs luck and hope.
> 
> I also stated I would never put a thick coat on a working dog BECAUSE it's a heat stroke danger.
> 
> I am at a loss for words!


Didn't you work your own dog on the heat to the point he blistered his foot?


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Sorry if it's just mind blowing to me that people can suggest working their dogs in the heat seeing a heat stroke Is an extreme problem, but I am in utter shock that people are saying that they'd take the risk of heat stroke just for their own benefit! I can not even be apart of this thread anymore because I am absolutely appalled and I wish your Own dogs luck and hope.
> 
> I also stated I would never put a thick coat on a working dog BECAUSE it's a heat stroke danger.
> 
> I am at a loss for words!


What about police dogs? Should they be restricted to only working in cold months? Best not use them to sniff out drugs or criminals during spring/summer.

An idiot police officer had a dog die in his van from overheating over here a few years ago. Should we stop using police dogs because of the odd idiotic person.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Meezey said:


> @tinaK you made me lol


I aim to please


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> What about police dogs? Should they be restricted to only working in cold months? Best not use them to sniff out drugs or criminals during spring/summer.
> 
> An idiot police officer had a dog die in his van from overheating over here a few years ago. Should we stop using police dogs because of the odd idiotic person.


Tut don't you know terrorists don't plant bombs in heat, nor do drug smugglers smuggle, people don't go missing, earth quake don't happen, people don't die and crimals don't run in heat...........They don't even have police dogs in really blistering hot countries, and well when war breaks out no dogs they have arms explosive search camels!


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Tut don't you know terrorists don't plant bombs in heat, nor do drug smugglers smuggle, people don't do missing, earth quake don't happen, people don't die and crimals don't run in heat...........They don't even have police dogs in really blistering hot countries, and well when war breaks out no dogs they have arms explosive search camels!


Search Camels :Woot lmao brilliant post.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Does a mod fancy closing this: I am SO bored :Yawn


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Does a mod fancy closing this: I am SO bored :Yawn


Whaaaaaaaaat how can you be bored.This has become such a comedy thread and has had me laughing constantly.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Didn't you work your own dog on the heat to the point he blistered his foot?


I said I would not come back but this is maddening.

It was 64 degrees outside when we left and 78 when we came back. (ie NOT BLISTERING HEAT)

We stopped at my workplace which was on the way and I had a friend pick us up from there for fear of it getting too hot before we returned to my house.

I took the necessary steps to see that he WASN'T worked in extreme heat and would never go on a bike ride above 80 degrees. Blisters are also far more different than heat stroke.

I made a visit to the vet to get some medication for it and had the vet examine it. He said it's likely that it was because his pads weren't used to concrete and that eventually they would harden up but to not go on bike rides or long walks until it healed. My assumption that it was from the heat was wrong as stated by my vet, and it's more likely he's just not used to walking so long on concrete. That was the longest ride he's been on although we've worked up to it for months, his pads still need adjusting. We usually bike in a dirt trail or on hikes up in a place called Glide which isn't concrete.

So no it wasn't because of the heat, it wasn't blistering outside, and I would never go on a long ride or walk in heat like that nor would I subject him to working in intense heat when we begin agility training in the spring and it's saddening to see people say they would work their dogs in the heat and don't mind greyhounds running in heat.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

25C not blistering heat? In what context???? I barely even WALK my dogs in 20C nevermind 25.

Jesus.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Does a mod fancy closing this: I am SO bored :Yawn


Then leave? Your rude comment in unnecessary but alright.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

And I wonder what folk who do run their dogs would think of someone believing anything under 26.6C is okay.. 

Shocking.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> 25C not blistering heat? In what context???? I barely even WALK my dogs in 20C nevermind 25.
> 
> Jesus.


? Not sure if you're familiar with how hot 78 degrees is but it's certainly not blistering and Oregon is fairly windy since we're near the coast. 60-75 is cardigan or light coat weather so no. This is incorrect, at least for my area.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

CavalierOwner said:


> What about police dogs? Should they be restricted to only working in cold months? Best not use them to sniff out drugs or criminals during spring/summer.
> 
> An idiot police officer had a dog die in his van from overheating over here a few years ago. Should we stop using police dogs because of the odd idiotic person.


Oh my god the ignorance of this is laughable.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> ? Not sure if you're familiar with how hot 78 degrees is but it's certainly not blistering and Oregon is fairly windy since we're near the coast. 60-75 is cardigan or light coat weather so no. This is incorrect, at least for my area.


Yes thanks I do have access to google to undertake rudimentary temperature conversions.

Perhaps it's cardigan weather for you, but certainly not for many dogs. Or do you think there's a comparison to be made between humans who can choose to regulate their temperatures and dogs who have no choice?


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> ? Not sure if you're familiar with how hot 78 degrees is but it's certainly not blistering and Oregon is fairly windy since we're near the coast. 60-75 is cardigan or light coat weather so no. This is incorrect, at least for my area.


I suppose i should tell you that they are in c degrees we are in f degrees.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Rott lover said:


> I suppose i should tell you that they are in c degrees we are in f degrees.


Yes, and 80F in 26C. Anyone here fancy running their dogs in 26 degrees centigrade or is there an unfathomable reason why nobody in their right mind would do so and chooses to only run at 6am or late at night in summer months?

The mind boggles.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Rott lover said:


> I suppose i should tell you that they are in c degrees we are in f degrees.


Obviously I figured that out, but I'm not familiar with C degrees. We live near the coast, it's windy and chilly most of the time so I don't appreciate people suggesting I'm being cruel to my dog for walking him in that weather? 60-75 is a pretty average temp and not to mention perfectly cool.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Yes, and 80F in 26C. Anyone here fancy running their dogs in 26 degrees centigrade or is there an unfathomable reason why nobody in their right mind would do so and chooses to only run at 6am or late at night in summer months?
> 
> The mind boggles.


I literally said I would NEVER run my dog in anything 80+ so not sure where you are getting that I would. That's why I had someone pick us up at 78, hello ?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I literally said I would NEVER run my dog in anything 80+ so not sure where you are getting that I would. That's why I had someone pick us up at 78, hello ?


So your limit is 80...which is 26C.

So what's your beef with my point again?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Weird because dogs used to running like huskys aren't advised to run anything over 60


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> So your limit is 80...which is 26C.
> 
> So what's your beef with my point again?


I have no beef with your point my beef is with people who are saying they'd work their dogs in the heat and disputing the article i gave about heat strokes in greyhounds and your argument that because they developed in Egypt they can be worked in heat which i disagree with.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I have no beef with your point my beef is with people who are saying they'd work their dogs in the heat and disputing the article i gave about heat strokes in greyhounds and your argument that because they developed in Egypt they can be worked in heat which i disagree with.


...and yet you'd run your dog up to 26C. Which in my book is the height of stupidity.

As for worked, please point out where I said that as opposed to they originated from Egypt and therefore can withstand temperatures....in direct reference to travelling temperature and not working.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Weird because dogs used to running like huskys aren't advised to run anything over 60


? I didn't just run him straight for 2 and a half hours! We stopped at three different parks and two rivers on the way with frequent breaks and lots of water. Not to mention most of the run was in about 64 degree weather which is absolutely not hot? especially with coastal winds if you've ever been around the coast you'll know 64 can feel like 40 but maybe you haven't I don't know.

But I know how to care for my dog thanks.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> ...and yet you'd run your dog up to 26C. Which in my book is the height of stupidity.
> 
> As for worked, please point out where I said that as opposed to they originated from Egypt and therefore can withstand temperatures....in direct reference to travelling temperature and not working.


I stopped and had someone pick us up at 78 so clearly I wouldn't but work him up to 80 but ok. I don't leave for a run of its anything above 65 but you didn't see that post and if you did you'd know I spoke of the unpredictable weather changes. Phone said it would cool down but it didn't. The best I could do was have someone pick us up and not finish the run which I did.

Also no I am saying people shouldn't WORK their dogs in heat not be transported and if they're transported they need to be regulated which some are not


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Oh my god the ignorance of this is laughable.


What's ignorant about it? You said people shouldn't work dogs in the heat.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Does a mod fancy closing this: I am SO bored :Yawn


Then come over to my thread "Snail Racing. Let's talk about that." in the Reptile forum. It's a bit slow so far.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I stopped and had someone pick us up at 78 so clearly I wouldn't but work him up to 80 but ok. I don't leave for a run of its anything above 65 but you didn't see that post and if you did you'd know I spoke of the unpredictable weather changes. Phone said it would cool down but it didn't. The best I could do was have someone pick us up and not finish the run which I did.
> 
> Also no I am saying people shouldn't WORK their dogs in heat not be transported and if they're transported they need to be regulated which some are not


So basically....you didn't read my post or the context at all and appear to be arguing in circles.

Gotcha.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

CavalierOwner said:


> What's ignorant about it? You said people shouldn't work dogs in the heat.


I suppose work only applies to high impact physical exercise in some peoples minds. Not like guide dogs, scent dogs or mountain rescue dogs are working at any time of the day or anything...


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> 25C not blistering heat? In what context???? I barely even WALK my dogs in 20C nevermind 25.
> 
> Jesus.


To be fair, in the US it's really not.

But it just proves my point. IOW, just because some people and their dogs can't do it safely without injury, doesn't mean it's inappropriate for all dogs.
Bates and Breez regularly run with me in 80+ temps. (It doesn't get much lower than low 80's high 70's here in the summer.) We go up to 5 miles. Both dogs are fit and healthy and handle the conditions just fine. Much of our running is on asphalt too and no feet issues either.

The difference is, I know what look for in my dogs, their pace, their gait, their demeanor, and I know when they're not right. I check their feet (and all joints along with a tick check) nightly. They regularly see a rehab and conditioning vet and we do crazy things like paw pressure pad measurements etc. Stuff average pet owners don't even know about let alone think to do.

And FWIW I don't think CF's dog had a blister from the heat of the pavement. If it was only one paw that suggests uneven gait, uneven wear (perhaps pulling sideways on the bike or something IDK) and the "blister" was from that paw getting overused. Something that someone more experienced might have noticed by just watching the dog's gait.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Look at my poor sad neglected puppy ...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> To be fair, in the US it's really not.
> 
> But it just proves my point. IOW, just because some people and their dogs can't do it safely without injury, doesn't mean it's inappropriate for all dogs.
> Bates and Breez regularly run with me in 80+ temps. (It doesn't get much lower than low 80's high 70's here in the summer.) We go up to 5 miles. Both dogs are fit and healthy and handle the conditions just fine. Much of our running is on asphalt too and no feet issues either.
> ...


Thanks for clearing it up. It's definitely not something you'd see commonly in the UK as 26C is usually classed as inhumane to many of us vampirish lot  Kes although short coated barely copes on a short walk anything above 20, and no running lot here go in the day when the sun is up as they generally won't cope. Then the concrete is another issue depending on what tar is used.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Look at my poor sad neglected puppy ...


Wait a minute. Your dogs not even one and you ran him (forced) for over 2 hours? I'm confused.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> To be fair, in the US it's really not.
> 
> But it just proves my point. IOW, just because some people and their dogs can't do it safely without injury, doesn't mean it's inappropriate for all dogs.
> Bates and Breez regularly run with me in 80+ temps. (It doesn't get much lower than low 80's high 70's here in the summer.) We go up to 5 miles. Both dogs are fit and healthy and handle the conditions just fine. Much of our running is on asphalt too and no feet issues either.
> ...


Thank you for bringing those things up because those are things I'd like to look into.

Also he was keeping up fine even getting ahead sometimes but now that you bring it up he's scared of gutters (which were working on) but sometimes maybe 1 in 10 times hell just stop walking and he did that once on our ride past the school during that time so it caused me to tug him a bit because it was unexpected. May have been that.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Wait a minute. Your dogs not even one and you ran him (forced) for over 2 hours? I'm confused.


I'm laughing. I did not force him. We have been working up to it for months and the time that we were actually running was probably about an hour maybe 1 hr 15 minutes compared to resting time. Like I said rivers and parks. I say "wanna go on a bike ride" and he wiggles and runs to the door and eagerly starts going. This is not forced. He's an extremely high energy breed (Australian shepherd) and even at a young age need a lot of stimulation and exercise. We got the ok to begin bike training at 6 months and took it EXTREMELY slow and it measured up to our normal walks. It's been almost 4 months now. 4 months progress is enough to take him on these runs. And trust me he loves them. The days I can't take him out he becomes destructive or overly hyper in the house. So no. Not forced and not cruel


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Good God this is getting beyond stupid! Not even sure why people are bothering realky, OP has already in her first post stated her usual reception on other forums ( seemingly because they are US based nothing of course to do with OP's attitude) so I'm guessing the fact she is always right, is more knowledgeable than most other members, can't see the wood for the trees, totally ignores those with MUCH more experience than her, feels the need to call everyone out as rude who doesn't agree with her, defends her "friends," in one post them demotes them to just someone with similar interests in the next, who has the only experience, and while her limited experience is extended to all, those with extensive experience don't count because they have no experience of the tiny bit experience she has! But if course it's not her fault, myself and other members are rude bully's as were the ones she had run ins with on all the other forums are at fault, the common denominator isn't!!!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Thanks for clearing it up. It's definitely not something you'd see commonly in the UK as 26C is usually classed as inhumane to many of us vampirish lot  Kes although short coated barely copes on a short walk anything above 20, and no running lot here go in the day when the sun is up as they generally won't cope. Then the concrete is another issue depending on what tar is used.


I know I was cracking up at you softies about your "heat wave" last summer 

Seriously, we're in the southeast and if I waited for temps to drop below 80 to exercise the dogs, we'd be housebound for a good 9 months a year LOL. Okay maybe not that bad, but you get the idea.

The dogs are acclimated to the heat, interestingly Bates the black one copes better than the lighter colored dane. He's also fitter though too.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I'm laughing. I did not force him. We have been working up to it for months and the time that we were actually running was probably about an hour maybe 1 hr 15 minutes compared to resting time. Like I said rivers and parks. I say "wanna go on a bike ride" and he wiggles and runs to the door and eagerly starts going. This is not forced. He's an extremely high energy breed (Australian shepherd) and even at a young age need a lot of stimulation and exercise. We got the ok to begin bike training at 6 months and took it EXTREMELY slow and it measured up to our normal walks. It's been almost 4 months now. 4 months progress is enough to take him on these runs. And trust me he loves them. The days I can't take him out he becomes destructive or overly hyper in the house. So no. Not forced and not cruel


You know how to loook after our dog, but before his growth plates are fused you are running him for over an hour. I do hope I'm being overly dramatic but that does not sound sensible at all to me. And you say you were working up to it for months, therefore at what age of immature physical growth were you running him?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I know I was cracking up at you softies about your "heat wave" last summer
> 
> Seriously, we're in the southeast and if I waited for temps to drop below 80 to exercise the dogs, we'd be housebound for a good 9 months a year LOL. Okay maybe not that bad, but you get the idea.
> 
> The dogs are acclimated to the heat, interestingly Bates the black one copes better than the lighter colored dane. He's also fitter though too.


Targ with his huge coat handles heat way better than Kes with her short black coat. But maybe it's the husky part of her that makes her a wimp.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Ten month old dog on a 2.5 hour on off bike ride???? Yeah really knowledgeable!!! Wtf? Having been built up since he was 6 months!! Omg!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> I suppose work only applies to high impact physical exercise in some peoples minds. Not like guide dogs, scent dogs or mountain rescue dogs are working at any time of the day or anything...


If that's true then this is where the miscommunication is. I'm talking extensive WORK like running a greyhound would do or herding a sheep dog would do.
My grandmother owned sheep dogs and I lived with her in the summers. They were not worked on 80-100 degree days because they didn't know when to stop. Border collies are an intense breed and they would do it all day if they could. They loved it, but she did have heat exhaustion scares from time to time because they over worked themselves so she didn't allow them to work in heat.

Now, a working dog who isn't constantly doing extensive exercise is fine to work in some heat, just as long as it's not blistering 110 degrees, imo


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Ten month old dog on a 2.5 hour on off bike ride???? Yeah really knowledgeable!!! Wtf? Having been built up since he was 6 months!! Omg!


Yeah... seriously

I might be wrong to think that's totally ridiculous and wrong but it seems pretty off to me...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> If that's true then this is where the miscommunication is. I'm talking extensive WORK like running a greyhound would do or herding a sheep dog would do.
> My grandmother owned sheep dogs and I lived with her in the summers. They were not worked on 80-100 degree days because they didn't know when to stop. Border collies are an intense breed and they would do it all day if they could. They loved it, but she did have heat exhaustion scares from time to time because they over worked themselves so she didn't allow them to work in heat.
> 
> Now, a working dog who isn't constantly doing extensive exercise is fine to work in some heat, just as long as it's not blistering 110 degrees, imo


How is a greyhound running for one minute even remotely comparable to the workload of a working sheepdog running over a dozen miles a day exactly? Any dog can run for one minute in heat.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Ten month old dog on a 2.5 hour on off bike ride???? Yeah really knowledgeable!!! Wtf? Having been built up since he was 6 months!! Omg!


Yes so awful that I keep up with my dogs energy and have frequent vet checkups to make sure he's in health as well as go slow for him and take rides at first that equalled to his regular walk and take frequent breaks and are picked up at locations if I feel he's getting tired or it's too hot.

How awful I know


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Yeah... seriously
> 
> I might be wrong to think that's totally ridiculous and wrong but it seems pretty off to me...


In fact if it's DOB is Dec 2014 he's not even 10 months!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> In fact if it's DOB is Dec 2015 he's not even 10 months!


Yeah I feel fairly confident in saying that's ridiculous then.

I suppose it's a working breed and needs the exercise blah blah blah. Better to try and physically exhaust a dog than mentally stimulate and wait til it's physically mature and all that.

I did second guess myself though. Having larger and a giant dog I obviously don't force walk nevermind run for years so forgot the rule but I'm pretty sure it's about a year old for even small breeds??


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Thank you for bringing those things up because those are things I'd like to look into.
> 
> Also he was keeping up fine even getting ahead sometimes but now that you bring it up he's scared of gutters (which were working on) but sometimes maybe 1 in 10 times hell just stop walking and he did that once on our ride past the school during that time so it caused me to tug him a bit because it was unexpected. May have been that.


Your dog isn't 12 months old yet, he should not be biking at all. No repetitive road work for at least 18 to 24 months. Lots of exercise, sure, hiking, playing, free running etc. but definitely not anything repetitive, and definitely not on pavement.

If he's unreliable on the lead to the point that he slams on the brakes while mid run, he should not be biking at all.

I don't know if you use a side attachment or how you run him, but I don't like side attachments because many dogs run sideways in them leading to injuries from the unnatural gait.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> How is a greyhound running for one minute even remotely comparable to the workload of a working sheepdog running over a dozen miles a day exactly? Any dog can run for one minute in heat.


During a 30-second run at top speed, a Greyhound's entire blood volume is circulated through his body four or five times. In intense heat, that's grounds for heat stroke and cardiac arrest. Which happens on the track. Has happened and will continue to happen


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Yes so awful that I keep up with my dogs energy and have frequent vet checkups to make sure he's in health as well as go slow for him and take rides at first that equalled to his regular walk and take frequent breaks and are picked up at locations if I feel he's getting tired or it's too hot.
> 
> How awful I know


The fact you make this statement shows you how little you really know! Yes it is awful. Go educate yourself on the damage you are doing to your dog, you've been biking a puppy from 6 months, you could cause him serious health issues!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Yes so awful that I keep up with my dogs energy and have frequent vet checkups to make sure he's in health as well as go slow for him and take rides at first that equalled to his regular walk and take frequent breaks and are picked up at locations if I feel he's getting tired or it's too hot.
> 
> How awful I know


I'm glad you're so knowledgable about your dogs future joints that you're happy for him to keep up with whatever energy levels you feel right to wear him out for an easy life. Who knew puppies would stop and think about their long term future when wanting extra exercise. Better tell all the Great Dane owners I know not to restrict exercise anymore, it'll be fine afterall.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> During a 30-second run at top speed, a Greyhound's entire blood volume is circulated through his body four or five times. In intense heat, that's grounds for heat stroke and cardiac arrest. Which happens on the track. Has happened and will continue to happen


And what you've done to your puppy can and does cause hip dysplasia, growth plate issues, joint issues etc.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Your dog isn't 12 months old yet, he should not be biking at all. No repetitive road work for at least 18 to 24 months. Lots of exercise, sure, hiking, playing, free running etc. but definitely not anything repetitive, and definitely not on pavement.
> 
> If he's unreliable on the lead to the point that he slams on the brakes while mid run, he should not be biking at all.
> 
> I don't know if you use a side attachment or how you run him, but I don't like side attachments because many dogs run sideways in them leading to injuries from the unnatural gait.


He's not unreliable on lead he walks like a dream he's scared of gutters but I'm not going to keep that from him getting exercise especially when we've been working on training with him and it's random when he'll be scared. I've spoken with two of the vets in my area and they said it's perfectly fine for him to be going on these rides. I detailed my route and explained what happens during the rides. He loves them and I'm trusting my vet over some people on pet forums.
He also doesn't run sideways? Not sure what you mean.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> I'm glad you're so knowledgable about your dogs future joints that you're happy for him to keep up with whatever energy levels you feel right to wear him out for an easy life. Who knew puppies would stop and think about their long term future when wanting extra exercise. Better tell all the Great Dane owners I know not to restrict exercise anymore, it'll be fine afterall.


I'm not knowledgable but my vet is I trust my vet.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> He also doesn't run sideways? Not sure what you mean.


she's asking how (and if) you attach your dog to the bike on runs.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

This is not about bulling or disliking you ( I don't know you from Adam so no feelings about you what so ever) what I do care about is dogs, so be as pig headed as you want about anything but don't cut your nose off to spite your face, you can and more than likely will cause your dog serious long term problems if you carry this on! You can call me all the names you want but you need to stop with your dog. Carry on trusting your Vet and you will have long term health issues.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> I'm not knowledgable but my vet is I trust my vet.


Then you need to be asking your vet some questions instead of blindlly believing quite frankly. There is a reason high impact training such as agility, IPO etc has an age minimum. No puppy should be forcible run, which is what you've been doing regardless of whether you realise it or not. Your dog is not physically mature and I certainly hope you haven't done long term damage to him with your recklesness.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> He's not unreliable on lead he walks like a dream he's scared of gutters but I'm not going to keep that from him getting exercise especially when we've been working on training with him and it's random when he'll be scared. I've spoken with two of the vets in my area and they said it's perfectly fine for him to be going on these rides. I detailed my route and explained what happens during the rides. He loves them and I'm trusting my vet over some people on pet forums.
> He also doesn't run sideways? Not sure what you mean.


If he's coming back from a run with a sore foot and a blister he's not fine.

Your vet may not be very savvy about growth plates or just not care, or not be listening to you properly, or who knows. 
My regular vet and rehab and conditioning vet along with the aussie breeders I know would tell you not to bike your dog until at least 18 months, preferably 24.

If he slams on the brakes because he's scared of gutters, he's not reliable on the leash. I don't know how else to say that.

You don't have to keep him from getting exercise, you just have to exercise him more naturally. It's not natural for dogs to run at the same pace on a leash next to a bike so you have to be very careful about exercising dogs this way. And always allow them to mature first.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> You know how to loook after our dog, but before his growth plates are fused you are running him for over an hour. I do hope I'm being overly dramatic but that does not sound sensible at all to me. And you say you were working up to it for months, therefore at what age of immature physical growth were you running him?


We stop about 20-30 minutes in and take a break at rivers and parks and then repeat. as I said I don't just blindly run him straight. I trust my veterinarian thanks anyway.

Also as I said at 6 months we did not by any means go on long rides or anything. It was the same as his regularly walk around the block. I drove slow and he kept up fine. It wasn't like I was going into town on my bike with a six month old dog! That period was to get him used to being around the bike.

Also, 6 months is when sled huskies begin training. Just to put it into perspective


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> Also, 6 months is when sled huskies begin training. Just to put it into perspective


Yeah, do you know how they're worked at 6 months?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Then you need to be asking your vet some questions instead of blindlly believing quite frankly. There is a reason high impact training such as agility, IPO etc has an age minimum. No puppy should be forcible run, which is what you've been doing regardless of whether you realise it or not. Your dog is not physically mature and I certainly hope you haven't done long term damage to him with your recklesness.


While I do think he's fine I will ask my vet some questions about his growth plates and biking as well as get more opinions. ThAnks you


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> Also, 6 months is when sled huskies begin training. Just to put it into perspective


Do you know what training you're talking about?

It's not advisable for any husky to pull any weight before at least a year old.

Be interested to hear the many husky runners here with opinions on such.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Yeah, do you know how they're worked at 6 months?


They put a harness on them and let them get used to it as well as pull no weight to begin with. Cosmo started with his normal walk routine and was not worked any more than usual walks. He doesn't pull me he runs along side. I go at a pace he can keep up with.

I am concerned about his health because I do love him though, and will ask my vet about it to be safe. I will also contact the other vet I have not spoken to and speak more to the vet that isn't his regular. You may be right and I may need to switch vets! Thanks for your suggestions.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> We stop about 20-30 minutes in and take a break at rivers and parks and then repeat. as I said I don't just blindly run him straight. I trust my veterinarian thanks anyway.
> 
> Also as I said at 6 months we did not by any means go on long rides or anything. It was the same as his regularly walk around the block. I drove slow and he kept up fine. It wasn't like I was going into town on my bike with a six month old dog! That period was to get him used to being around the bike.
> 
> Also, 6 months is when sled huskies begin training. Just to put it into perspective


Do you know what chickenfoot crack on, you know best in everything it would seem and have an answer for everything! Good luck! For all your yapping about animal welfare yet your own pig headness allows you to ignore your own dogs welfare! You can Google as much as you want and regurgitate others peoples knowledge but you do not know everything! Oh btw we have a few members who worked at husky kennels, I'm sure their experience will mean nothing to your Google search but hey! On that note the ignore button is going back on!! Can't be arsed!


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Still not had an answer as to why my post was referred to as ignorant. 

All that exercise for a puppy? We didn't even trial greyhounds until at least 18 months and just before then they'd have a few handslips. 

As for greyhounds running in extreme temperatures. UK top temp would unlikely cause a greyhound to overheat from a 30 second run. However tugging a puppy along for over an hour on lead in the heat....


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

CavalierOwner said:


> We didn't even trial greyhounds until at least 18 months and just before then they'd have a few handslips.


God so cruel! Where's the regulation?!?!?

Sorry... I fear I've had a gin too many


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Meezey said:


> This is not about bulling or disliking you ( I don't know you from Adam so no feelings about you what so ever) what I do care about is dogs, so be as pig headed as you want about anything but don't cut your nose off to spite your face, you can and more than likely will cause your dog serious long term problems if you carry this on! You can call me all the names you want but you need to stop with your dog. Carry on trusting your Vet and you will have long term health issues.


Reallllyyy not sure where this came from or how bullying is brought up again but ok. Already said I am going to ask for different opinions.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)




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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Okay so to sum up...
Everything about Greyhound racing is bad because dogs get hurt.
But husky racing is fine - so fine in fact that it can even be used as a justification for doing roadwork with a 10 month old puppy. 
And don’t put a coat on working dogs. 

I need a drink....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I need a drink....


I have some to share. I'm feeling a bit woozy now for some reason


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Ooh thanks for summing that up, Ouesi! I was just about to pull an all-nighter to read the 26 pages of this thread, and now I don't have to!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


>


That's cruel. Where is the regulation!?!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> That's cruel. Where is the regulation!?!


You'll have to take that up with the chap in the top hat I'm afraid.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> You'll have to take that up with the chap in the top hat I'm afraid.


Lets outlaw top hats!! Clearly an evil symbol of the establishment.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Lets outlaw top hats!! Clearly an evil symbol of the establishment.


*nods* Symbols of repression, privilege all that fun stuff.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> *nods* Symbols of repression, privilege all that fun stuff.


Now Corbyns the next prime minister we can really sock it to em

Class warfare and all that!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Now Corbyns the next prime minister we can really sock it to em
> 
> Class warfare and all that!


Down with the establishment etc etc

*has fever and will likely wonder what the hell I was on about in the morning*


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> Down with the establishment etc etc
> 
> *has fever and will likely wonder what the hell I was on about in the morning*


Seriously my head is spinning

I should retire

Anyone have any smelling salts?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> And don't put a coat on working dogs.
> 
> I need a drink....


Can they wear suits??







he works 9-5 in an office senior management? There is aircon?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Can they wear suits??
> View attachment 244332
> he works 9-5 in an office senior management? There is aircon?


Can someone please think of the puppies???


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Seriously my head is spinning
> 
> I should retire
> 
> Anyone have any smelling salts?


Step away from the gin lady.............. No more fall down juice for the Phoolf lady!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Can they wear suits??
> View attachment 244332
> he works 9-5 in an office senior management? There is aircon?


Suits  you want them to become just mindless wage slaves, working for the better of the fat cats

Something, something money, something something Russell Brand


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Suits  you want them to become just mindless wage slaves, working for the better of the fat cats
> 
> Something, something money, something something Russell Brand


Ohhhhhh poo I thought the idea was right to vote equality and world domination!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

My cats ain't fat btw they is Meezers!!!!! They slinky...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Ohhhhhh poo I thought the idea was right to vote equality and world domination!!!


You're confused that's the terrier party agenda


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Rotties should be more communist/anarchist/whatever, they are in the working group after all


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think there is truth to dogs becoming accustomed to working in extreme heats. I mean, the ancient sighthounds originally bred to hunt in desert climates for example didn't just flake out and die. As someone ( Phoolf? ) said, temps rarely get to extreme levels in this country anyway so that wouldn't be my top most concern in racing Greys. That said, I'm certainly not one to hold my dogs back in hot weather, during the period of 90f+ temps we had this summer I still had my lot out....and that did include chasing balls and whatnot. All coped fine despite not being used to _that_ level of heat but I think because I have them out in warm weather in general they're partly used to regulating themselves without melting at the first sign of the Sun.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or australian cattle dogs bred to herd in the Outback. It's a matter of the dogs being used to it surely, just like with humans. If a British person went and ran around in the Outback with no acclimation, they'd probably die of heat exhaustion. But other humans do it all the time


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> That's cruel. Where is the regulation!?!


Why isn't that horse wearing a good, thick coat?

Just cruel, in my opinion.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

chickenfoot said:


> Well with all of the tracks shut down and a lot in jeopardy of that id say that some people need to just open their eyes and take a look at what's going on. You don't have to visit every track in America to realize that something very terrible is happening, and clearly government officials agree.


Sorry, been to relatives for thee evening, so haven't quite caught up yet, but don't you think tracks might be closing because people are beginning to realise the inherent risk of harm, rather than needing to "open their eyes" to it because tracks are closing?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Sorry, been to relatives for thee evening, so haven't quite caught up yet, but don't you think tracks might be closing because people are beginning to realise the inherent risk of harm, rather than needing to "open their eyes" to it because tracks are closing?


I know that tracks in the UK are starting to close due to the lack of people actually turning up to watch the dogs run,

In the late 1940s, Britain boasted 77 licensed greyhound racing tracks and upwards of 50 million punters would pass through the turnstiles each year. London alone had 33 tracks.

We now only have 25 across the British Isles. People aren't as blind as some would have us believe  Maybe the OP would be better off joining one of the groups (and there are plenty to chose from) that have spent their days protesting and informing the normal "Joe Blogs" on the street, rather than ranting to a group of animal lovers that have far more experience in the industry that they could shake a stick at


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I really do think heat is relative. I live in a very cold part of the UK and if it gets up to 20 degrees (like for a few hours every 2 or 3 years) we all quietly expire in a sweaty heap. Yet in parts of the UK if it goes below 20 degrees everyone complains. I do not cope with heat well whereas some people revel in very hot temperatures and I am sure dogs are the same. I really do not think you can have a go at someone for walking their dog in temperatures that are normal for them where they live.

As for forced exercise, Chickenfoot , no one has explained to you what harm you are doing but a young dog has not fully matured and a lot of forced exercise (which does not mean you are forcing your dog to do something it does not want to do, it just means you are setting a pace faster than the dog would go if it was just wandering around on a walk) is likely to damage the joints and could cause trouble in later life.

My dogs do forced exercise behind the driving ponies, held on a lead behind the carriage and no choice about what speed they have to go at. They are small breeds and both started at 6 months with half a mile at walk then coming up on the back. By the time they were a year they were up to 6 miles with a mixture of walk and trot and just coming up for the odd break - but they are small breeds. One of them will now do 12 miles quite happily and the other has unrelated health problems which means she will only do slower paces and usually comes up after a mile at the most. Because of their breed they never run, they always pace which is actually probably harder on their joints.(obviously they run when they are playing or chasing but prefer to extend their speed without running) The one that goes furthest does tend to lean out which worries me and I try and discourage her and get her to go straighter. I would not even have dreamt of doing that sort of forced exercise with the larger breeds I have owned in the past.

Please try and read this sensibly and take it on board - I am not having a go at you and if your vet has not explained the harm you could be doing then it is not your fault and is a common mistake which is often regretted later.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

silvi said:


> And there lies one immediate dilemma.
> Do you think it is cruel to keep dogs in roomy, comfortable kennels, for example? Or is it cruel to re-home them after their racing days are done?
> Because some anti-greyhound racing advocates would argue that this is cruel.
> 
> Fair enough


Kennelling a dog is not necessarily cruel, per se.

I'd prefer that ALL racing greyhounds had better roomy, comfortable kennels than the ones that I have seen and heard about.

I'd also prefer that they were ALL rehomed rather than slaughtered, abandoned or neglected - the fact this this even happens to ONE innocent animal (for any reason, but particularly in the name of entertainment) is too many in my book.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

It's the change in the gambling landscape which is causing tracks to shut. It would be nice if it was public concerns over dog safety.. but apparently not.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> Kennelling a dog is not necessarily cruel, per se.
> 
> I'd prefer that ALL racing greyhounds had better roomy, comfortable kennels than the ones that I have seen and heard about.
> 
> I'd also prefer that they were ALL rehomed rather than slaughtered, abandoned or neglected - the fact this this even happens to ONE innocent animal (for any reason, but particularly in the name of entertainment) is too many in my book.


shame that you lump together slaughtered, abandoned or neglected. No animal should be abandoned or neglected. the animal knows nothing and does not suffer from humane slaughter. A bit emotive calling them innocent animals.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Kennelling a dog is not necessarily cruel, per se.
> 
> I'd prefer that ALL racing greyhounds had better roomy, comfortable kennels than the ones that I have seen and heard about.
> 
> I'd also prefer that they were ALL rehomed rather than slaughtered, abandoned or neglected - the fact this this even happens to ONE innocent animal (for any reason, but particularly in the name of entertainment) is too many in my book.


I'd also prefer we didn't eat meat full stop and if we continue to farm animals all had fantastic lives from farm to plate, but they don't but I'm also not going to say all farmers just care about money all farms only care about what they get for their animal money wise! The reason this thread lost its message was rather than discuss as the OP stated, she argued with peoples different experiences! I hate greyhound racing I have been heavily involved in greyhound rescue, I've risked disciplinary action in work refusing to go to Corp events with clients to nights at the races, so being preached to by someone with very little experience is galling to say the least, the message is out their loud and clear to nearly all members already, a lot have direct experience not second hand not read not just from a rescue group and like it or not their experience postive or negative is every bit as valid if not more so, most people on this forum don't need educated on the plight of greys, they have witnessed in person the good and bad!

Just to add you could discuss any topic and a Google search will bring up horror stories, I'd rather take my education from people directly involved in the situation good or bad or those that have past direct broad scope experience in it!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Right last comment on this post because to be honest I'm sick to the back teeth of seeing it! Yes racing greyhounds can live a appalling life, some can also lead a pretty amazing life doing what they love, Greyhounds in the UK and Ireland also have a body to regulate them, and while its not fool proof and many dogs still have awful lives and deaths ( yes one is to many) there is a board trying to stop it with millions being invested to stop it, we all are aware if it its being a fight for decades one which I am sure I will be fighting to the grave:

"
*Welfare*
The Greyhound Board of Great Britain (GBGB) cares passionately about greyhound welfare and is committed to working to raise standards of care still further.

*"Retired Greyhounds*

The GBGB supports retired greyhounds in a number of ways and in 2013 donated £1.4 million to the Retired Greyhound Trust, which rehomed 3,742 ex racers in that year alone.

The GBGB also administers a Retired Greyhound Fund that, in 2013, awarded £26,000 towards capital projects being undertaken by individuals, groups and organisations across Britain actively rehoming retired greyhounds. Since the establishment of the Fund in 2005, 89 grants have been awarded to responsible rehoming centres to assist with projects directly linked to improving welfare and rehoming opportunities.

In addition to the Retired Greyhound Trust, there are many other outlets through which retired greyhounds may be homed. These include charities such as Battersea Dogs Home that have greyhounds among a number of breeds, or Greyhound Rescue West of England that is substantial and devoted to homing greyhounds. Many greyhounds are kept as pets by their owners on retirement. A large number are kept in retirement by their trainers; some of these will be rehomed in due course, others may live out their lives with their trainers.

Owners must inform the GBGB when a greyhound retires. This must be done using a distinctive green form that can be obtained from any licensed track, or by calling the GBGB on 020 7822 0900. Alternatively, you can download a form by clicking the link below."

Sadly there many more dogs and other animals who don't have a regulatory board or body to try and ensure their well being and that they have fantastic lives from cradle to grave, and they need a lot more help than the greyhounds get, and sadly nearly all that suffer do so for the entertainment of people, guess what I'll continue to try and help them too, so I don't need preached at and I am sure most other members don't either, but of course that just means because we don't shout the loudest about what we might do to help doesn't mean we silently support it! Might have been a bit more tolerant if those shouting the odds had a few ex racers lying on their sofas!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Blitz said:


> shame that you lump together slaughtered, abandoned or neglected. No animal should be abandoned or neglected. the animal knows nothing and does not suffer from humane slaughter. A bit emotive calling them innocent animals.


Many greyhounds are "slaughtered" with a bolt gun - there is a massive campaign going on at the moment to ban it. It's not humane, and sadly many of the hounds DO know about it, because they don't die instantly.

I don't apologise for referring to innocent animals as "innocent animals".

I've never stated that one breed of dog trumps another's right to be treated humanely (or species come to that). They all do, IMO.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I'd also prefer we didn't eat meat full stop and if we continue to farm animals all had fantastic lives from farm to plate, but they don't but I'm also not going to say all farmers just care about money all farms only care about what they get for their animal money wise! The reason this thread lost its message was rather than discuss as the OP stated, she argued with peoples different experiences! I hate greyhound racing I have been heavily involved in greyhound rescue, I've risked disciplinary action in work refusing to go to Corp events with clients to nights at the races,* so being preached to by someone with very little experience is galling to say the least, the message is out their loud and clear to nearly all members already, a lot have direct experience not second hand not read not just from a rescue group and like it or not their experience postive or negative is every bit as valid if not more so, most people on this forum don't need educated on the plight of greys, they have witnessed in person the good and bad!*
> 
> Just to add you could discuss any topic and a Google search will bring up horror stories, I'd rather take my education from people directly involved in the situation good or bad or those that have past direct broad scope experience in it!


But you can choose to ignore it if you wish


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> But you can choose to ignore it if you wish


I have hence the OP is on ignore!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

:Yawn :Bored :Meh :Yawn

Think it's time to let this thread die now.


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## Sarahferret (Apr 25, 2012)

I haven't managed to plough through all the replies since i last logged in, but get the gist! On the subject of growth plates, this was circulating on FB last week as proof of why not to over exercise young dogs. I can't comment on its accuracy, but still found it interesting:



As for greyhounds running in the heat... I lure course my whippets, they typically run 700 meters, 2-3 times during the day. I run mine even on the hottest of days in the South of England and they cope just fine, as do all the other's competing. Dogs are taken care of before and after running, and as they are kept fit and strong, they don't show any signs that the heat is any issue.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> :Yawn :Bored :Meh :Yawn
> 
> Think it's time to let this thread die now.


Sure fire thread killer or closer!!!


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Greyhounds registered here are kept track of. The retirement form mentioned asks you to state what has happened to the retired Greyhound. Whether it's been retired to a home/rescue, you have to state which one and give the names and addresses. Also asks you whether your dog has been put down and if so it asks you to state the reasons, which vet did it and for the vets signature. Now what can happen with greyhounds that aren't registered I have no idea because I haven't come across anyone personally who doesn't rehome or have them pts by a vet. I also can't remember rules regarding when pups are registered. We only had 2 litters in 4 years and all were registered in order for them to trial. The couple who didn't chase during the trials where rehomed with cats through the RGT and we kept the rest. Now if they have to be registered to trial at a proper track then I would have thought they could only be disposed of inhumanely before registration?

Also there's flapping. Could it be these dogs that are killed inhumanely? I have absolutely no experience with flapping at all so I don't know how it works but I don't think they have to be registered so I presume they aren't monitored like proper racing greyhounds?


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Right last comment on this post because to be honest I'm sick to the back teeth of seeing it! Yes racing greyhounds can live a appalling life, some can also lead a pretty amazing life doing what they love, Greyhounds in the UK and Ireland also have a body to regulate them, and while its not fool proof and many dogs still have awful lives and deaths ( yes one is to many) there is a board trying to stop it with millions being invested to stop it, we all are aware if it its being a fight for decades one which I am sure I will be fighting to the grave:
> 
> "
> *Welfare*
> ...


Those involved in the industry won't be biased at all will they? You also say you hate racing yet you seem to be defending it. Why else would you post all that about the GBGB (which to the uninformed looks as if they might actually give a stuff about welfare and rehoming)?

Anyway, that £1.4 million is nowhere near enough to support the 70 branches that are up and down the country and the thousands of dogs they take in every year. The fact the industry donates so little means that the rest of the money required to keep the branches running comes from the public! There are many independent rescues that get no funding whatsoever from the industry whatsoever. They are the ones that rescue dogs who have been failed miserably by the industry.

The GBGB's pledge to improve welfare means nothing. It has been 5 years since newer legislations were brought in, but nothing has changed. That is why DEFRA (are again) reviewing current welfare guidelines. If it were so dedicated to rehoming then why does it have an option (on its retirement form) to kill a dog on economic grounds?

Greyhounds also need a lot more help than what they are currently getting.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Those involved in the industry won't be biased at all will they? You also say you hate racing yet you seem to be defending it. Why else would you post all that about the GBGB (which to the uninformed looks as if they might actually give a stuff about welfare and rehoming)?
> 
> Anyway, that £1.4 million is nowhere near enough to support the 70 branches that are up and down the country and the thousands of dogs they take in every year. The fact the industry donates so little means that the rest of the money required to keep the branches running comes from the public! There are many independent rescues that get no funding whatsoever from the industry whatsoever. They are the ones that rescue dogs who have been failed miserably by the industry.
> 
> ...


But reading a load of stuff online won't make you biased either? People who have worked it and had bad experiences or seen awful things are going to have one opinion and people who haven't had bad experiences will have another, then people who read info online are going to be biased from what they've read. Everyone is going to have their own views.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Sure fire thread killer or closer!!!
> 
> View attachment 244356


What about a goat with a nice thick coat?








And a hat for good measure....


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Just to make it clear I'm not "on ignore" I'm in the hospital for pre existing heart conditions that acted up. It was a scare and I don't exactly have the motivation to come on here with 2 ivs in my arm.









(The text is because it was in my snapchat story)
I've put in my opinions as have everyone else so I'm just going to let this die because it's not going much of anywhere. Or people can continue I honestly have no preference.

I spoke with my vet over the phone and he scheduled a check up appointment to assure his joints and growth plates are all in working order. It's scheduled for Wednesday. I've also spoken to another vet in the area, a girl this time, and she told me she wouldn't suggest starting bike rides until 8-12 months old but she wanted to know the previous vets opinions after checkup and if I felt it was necessary she offered to give him a checkup herself and I can come in anytime between noon and 6pm. She also wants to take a look at his paw pad.

Biking actually is the cause for me being in the hospital right now (the irony!) but Cosmo skipped out on the ride because of my concerns for his plates and his paw pad injury that's still healing. I do care deeply for my dog and I hope that was never doubted. He means the world to me. If the hospital allowed him in he'd be lying in my bed with me but unfortunately he's at my grandparents for the time being until I'm released which is hopefully within the next 48 hours.

I understand some of my opinions were extremely biased, but it came from a complete place of care and concern for the animals involved. I just wish the best for all Greys involved in racing be it a "good" track or a "bad" track. Unfortunately I personally feel it's not the best for all, and that's where my concern lies. Anyway, as I've said I've already given you all of this and I apologize for any disrespectful remarks or ignorant things spewed out of a place of frustration and passion.

Good night x


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Well said @chickenfoot. I wish you well.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

chickenfoot said:


> Just to make it clear I'm not "on ignore" I'm in the hospital for pre existing heart conditions that acted up. It was a scare and I don't exactly have the motivation to come on here with 2 ivs in my arm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear you are in hospital, hope you are back home with Cosmo soon and all goes well at his vet check.

Just so you know for future reference when a member says you are "on ignore" that means they have put you on their ignore list so your posts don't show up for them. They can see a post from you if it is quoted by someone else but not otherwise and I also think they don't receive PM's from you unless that changed with the new forum format. If you want to put someone on ignore so you won't see their posts you click on their name beneath their avatar - in the box that comes up you click ignore. So when Meezey said you were on ignore that is what she meant - she is not seeing your posts anymore.


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