# Ethics and Morals question



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Right, this has been plaguing me for a while now, especially whilst I've been trying to source some fishies of my own...

I know full well never to get any fish from [email protected], they're always stressed out, ill, disease gets passed from tank to tank and they're mass-produced for quantity over quality, but is the same true of Aquatics shops?

I know not to buy, for instance rats, from any pet shop or byb (I will however, take them for free to get them out of a bad situation, but won't fund that sort of practice), but there are home breeders who are extremely careful about their genetics and breeding practices and ethics, and I was just wondering was there similar within the fish community?

Is it ok to buy fish from what would otherwise be considered a byb, or are there actually decent fish breeders that sell to 'pet' homes? And if there are, where are they so I can hunt down some decent fish breeders!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Blimey thats a difficult one - but if you didn't get from aquatic shops where would you get them from? I suppose is down to finding a good specialist one. The one I use is a small family business thats been going for years (1983) - was the parents business and their son has now taken over.

This is what it says on their websiteL

We kept and bred a huge variety of tropical fish, our main speciality being anabantoids. Siamese fighting fish were our main breeding programme, including a rare black strain specially imported from the United States of America. Our best achievement was to successfully breed and raise kissing gourami (Helostoma temmincki). We also had great success breeding Malpulutta kretseri and the Day's spike-tail paradise fish, (Macropodus cupanus dayi).

We were proud members of the Potteries and District Aquarists Society. We won best male siamese fighting fish for three years in a row with our own red strain at the first, second and third Annual Open Show. We also won best fish in Open Show at Coventry and District open show with a large, spotted climbing perch (Ctenopoma acuctirostre), which we kept for about seven years.

Some nine years ago we worked with British Coal Open Cast on a project to raise and breed Great Crested newts, protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. We succeeded, and several thousand were released into the wild. The project led to an interesting discovery. Each tank bred newt could be identified by it's own stomach colouration. This means that researchers can follow the progress of these captive-bred amphibians in the wild.

In November 1993 we were proud to be voted one of the top shops in North Staffordshire by Practical Fishkeeping Magazine on their North Staffs fish tour.

Our aim is to supply quality livestock and equipment at a competitive price,backed by forty years of fish keeping experience.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Yeah they sound pretty dedicated....I know the aquatics place near mine are a little independent place but I'm not sure I liked the woman's attitude XD she didn't seem nasty or anything, I just don't think she liked the look of me or something...I just wanted to ask some questions and get some advice and something seemed off about her attitude...
There's a pretty famous fisheries here as well, but I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole thank to all the other animals they sell (they even have kittens in from time to time  )


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## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

There are good places, and there are bad places to get fish from. generally speaking, very few aquatic retailers breed their own stock. pretty much all of them buy from the wholesalers, so pretty much get them from the same kinda suppliers. the difference is how well they are kept once they are in store. id maybe do some local research. try out Latest | Practical Fishkeeping, its the UKs best selling fishkeeping magazine, and they often do spots on shops in a select local area, and they usually refuse to advertise shops known for bad practice (seriously, i once reported a bad shop here in Hull, and they very qickly withdrew all their adverts for them). id look at their websites/in the actual magazine for local reputable suppliers.

the only other option i can think of is to see if any aquarium auctions are upcoming in the area, but in this day and age, they are few and far between :/


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Maidenhead Aquatics are generally pretty good from what I've been told, if you have one near you. What I did was just to google the names of all the aquatic shops within a 10-mile radius of me, and read the reviews that come up. tropicalfishforums.co.uk have a 'name and shame' and a 'name and praise' section (searchable) which is useful too  They also have a 'buy and sell' section, which might be a good place to start if you're looking for a decent breeder!

IMO, a good 'litmus test' of aquatic shops is to go in, act as if you're a complete newbie and know nothing at all, and ask a few questions about setting up a tank. If they tell you about fishless cycling, that's a good sign, whereas if they just tell you to run the tank for a couple of days and then stick fish in it, I'd avoid them!


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Great advice all round, shall continue my search, thanks guys!


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Maidenhead Aquatics branch local to me are fantastic, they can never do enough to help, and advice is always on tap. 

I really rate the quality of fish they have in stock and the customer service is far better than any other local aquatics centre.

Would definitely recommend them. They have several branches over the country.


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

Very much depends on what fish.I keep malawi

Malawis, i get from breeders mainly.
But join a fish forum,and see feedback sections.
Hobbyists know how important spreading bloodlines is. Eg; not breeding brother and sister.
It makes for weaker fry,and shorten life spans.also the colours are dirty.

If my fish breed,I will strip the babies from mum (if i want to keep them)
and raise them,in their own tank.I will sell to other hobbyists on my forum.
fish take literally years to grow,to a good size,to sell on.I dont do it to make money.The cost of running a tank is more than what they sell for.
So that makes me a byb
Oh well.I will get over it


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> Maidenhead Aquatics branch local to me are fantastic, they can never do enough to help, and advice is always on tap.
> 
> I really rate the quality of fish they have in stock and the customer service is far better than any other local aquatics centre.
> 
> Would definitely recommend them. They have several branches over the country.


Ours are dreadful.Dirty colours on the fish.in the malawi section.
They have the dreaded 'mixed malawi' 
so unless you can id fish properly,you could be buying any thing.As juvies change colour when they reach adulthood


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## Tropical Fish Delivered (Sep 25, 2012)

As an owner of a fish store i find there are many factors that influence the quality of fish that a shop sells. The vast majority of shops large or small get their fish either directly from over seas (Singapore, Thailand) or from a wholesaler that buys from abroad. The fish are always packed densely so when they arrive they are stressed, i and other good retailers previously mentioned will quarantine fish in high quality water for at least 2 weeks during this time the fish are monitored closely. 

There are some really good UK breeders, we use them for our Discus and angels but they can not compete with the massive fish farms aboard. My advice ask plenty of questions before you buy, most importantly where are the fish from and how long have the shop had them.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Argent said:


> Right, this has been plaguing me for a while now, especially whilst I've been trying to source some fishies of my own...
> 
> I know full well never to get any fish from [email protected], they're always stressed out, ill, disease gets passed from tank to tank and they're mass-produced for quantity over quality, but is the same true of Aquatics shops?
> 
> ...


Just so you are aware (in case you weren`t), a lot of fish from the specialist aquatic shops are imported, caught from the wild.


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

Tropical Fish Delivered said:


> As an owner of a fish store i find there are many factors that influence the quality of fish that a shop sells. The vast majority of shops large or small get their fish either directly from over seas (Singapore, Thailand) or from a wholesaler that buys from abroad. The fish are always packed densely so when they arrive they are stressed, i and other good retailers previously mentioned will quarantine fish in high quality water for at least 2 weeks during this time the fish are monitored closely.
> 
> There are some really good UK breeders, we use them for our Discus and angels but they can not compete with the massive fish farms aboard. My advice ask plenty of questions before you buy, most importantly where are the fish from and how long have the shop had them.


I kind of think UK bred fish are better acclimatised, more used to our water, hardier, than imported stock. They won`t have gone through the stress of being packed up and flown overseas. But a lot of coldwater fish are imported too, bred overseas and flown in.


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

Most of my malawi friends,buy wilds.I dont agree with it,personally.
Imagine living in a huge lake,only to be caught,and put in a 4ft box.
They can also carry disease,which could wipe out your tank,if you dont quarantine them for months.
But people crave for perfection,and if the tank bred 'lines' or finnage of the fish isnt right,they go for wilds


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

kathateria said:


> Most of my malawi friends,buy wilds.I dont agree with it,personally.
> Imagine living in a huge lake,only to be caught,and put in a 4ft box.
> They can also carry disease,which could wipe out your tank,if you dont quarantine them for months.
> But people crave for perfection,and if the tank bred 'lines' or finnage of the fish isnt right,they go for wilds


And of course you are talking about the survivors! Depending on the species, a lot don`t survive the catching, transportation and quarantine.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

It was having a sense of ethical responsibility that sort of drove me away from the aquatics hobby  

I hate that shops regularly import fish that have no place in a domestic environment- how many places stock pangasius catfish, MBU's and red-tailed catfish? 
To sell 15-20L, unfiltered setups for goldfish is disgusting. 

I feel personally uncomfortable with the importation of wild stock- though I understand there are arguments to be made on both sides.

I owned a SA puffer (Colomesus asellus) for a few years. She was a great fish but in spite of all the interventions I put in place I couldn't keep her teeth down and she had to be sedated and trimmed every few months so she wouldn't starve. It just isn't right to my mind. This little fish should have been in the Amazon where she belonged- not in a glass box in my room for my enjoyment. 

I hate that goldfish have been line bred into weak varieties that are nothing short of a cruel deliberate disability. So many of the fancy bred fish have a conformity so far from what is natural that their swimbladders are contorted and suffer in function. Swimbladder problems are not benign- these fish are under stress not being able to maintain their balance which typically results in a predisposition to disease and premature death. Even with the best of vet care I have found fancy goldfish to be less forgiving due to their weaknesses than supposedly much more complex fish with speciality requirements. 

I do think that it is possible to keep fish ethically- but make sure you research what you want, where they come from and what their needs are (beyond basics like water hardness, would you for instance be comfortable keeping a naturally migratory fish in a tank?) because the hobby is full of species that shouldn't really be there IMO.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

When I was looking at tanks on ebay, I saw some, advertised as being suitable for a betta, that were 1.5l! That's, like, the size of a jug or something! Lots of them had been sold, too... poor fishies 

I also saw Asda were selling "goldfish starter kits" that were basically a tiny bowl and a tub of flake food.


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

NaomiM said:


> When I was looking at tanks on ebay, I saw some, advertised as being suitable for a betta, that were 1.5l! That's, like, the size of a jug or something! Lots of them had been sold, too... poor fishies
> 
> I also saw Asda were selling "goldfish starter kits" that were basically a tiny bowl and a tub of flake food.


Yes,ive seen those.And they have pictures on the packets,of 2 goldfish in there


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## Sussexplumber (Oct 5, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> It was having a sense of ethical responsibility that sort of drove me away from the aquatics hobby
> 
> I hate that shops regularly import fish that have no place in a domestic environment- how many places stock pangasius catfish, MBU's and red-tailed catfish?
> To sell 15-20L, unfiltered setups for goldfish is disgusting.
> ...


Youve gone up in my estimation.


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