# Flat-faced = cute?



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

There seems to be a perception amongst people that write articles on dogs that flat-faced breeds are more visually appealing (cute), and that this is likely to be due to their more baby-like faces, than those with 'proper' noses.

This is about appearance and how appealing you find them. We're all aware (or should be by now) of the health implications for the dog.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would never have one.

I couldn't live with any dog that couldn't breathe easily.

I was in the Vets one day. It was January and very cold outside. It was cool in the Waiting Room., but there was a lady next to me with two Pekes and the pair of them were panting, had their mouths open and tongues out, and were making gurgling, snorting noises. They were struggling to breathe, yet, they were just sitting there, not exerting themselves in any way.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I can't stand to watch some of the poor souls fighting for breath


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I don't find them cute personally. I'm much more attracted to athleticism and working type dogs, something which most flat faced breeds are generally not.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

labradrk said:


> I don't find them cute personally. I'm much more attracted to athleticism and working type dogs, something which most flat faced breeds are generally not.


i did see a Cavalier the other day running around like a normal Spaniel. It was a pleasure to watch


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Personally I prefer long noses on dogs, but then I don't find babies particularly appealing so it's probably why I'm not really drawn to flatter faced dogs.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Flat faced dogs or cats do absolutely nothing for me, much rather have a dog with a pointy nose. Watching a program about cats and dogs, there was a cat shown, Persian perhaps, but don't know, and it's face was as flat as a pancake. No idea how it breaths poor thing. Hate to hear flat faced dogs having problems breathing g and don't find them cute at all.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rona said:


> i did see a Cavalier the other day running around like a normal Spaniel. It was a pleasure to watch


Are Cavs considered to be brachy?? When I think brachy I think Pugs, Pekes, Bulldogs, Boston Terriers etc, aka the real extremes, but I appreciate there are varying degrees of it. I'm personally not a fan of over exaggeration of any forms in dogs, so dwarfism, excess wrinkles, extreme coats, drooping eyes etc. I like natural looking dogs that are or at least should be fit and althletic - sight hounds, HPRs, GSDs etc.


----------



## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

I had a shihtzu . He had a short nose and never had any problem at all with breathing . Think they look cute


----------



## AceOfSpades113 (Dec 1, 2015)

Nope, sorry, they really don't appeal to me and I would never even consider having one.. My Aunt happens to have two Cavaliers and for one, its breathing all but stops at times and when it happens she has to cover its nostrils for a few seconds as the vet instructed.. It panics me to think what would happen if she wasn't there to help it breath again  I think this is one breed in particular where there are some extremes which don't even fit the breed standard- such as this one of hers. Not adorable dogs whatsoever in my eyes, but then again, she thinks my dogs are some of the ugliest she has ever seen so goes both ways :Hilarious
Long nosed dogs all the way for here, I love breeds which were bred for a particular purpose more than appearance, I completely miss where the 'cute' factor is in a dogs which health has been gambled with for the sake of looking like it has got hit by a frying pan


----------



## Guest (Feb 16, 2016)

Nope do nothing for me I'm afraid. Kenzie doesn't like them either.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think boxer puppies are cute but adult boxers do nothing for me (or mastiffs or whatever). Many years ago I became interested in getting a Puli. I researched and decided to go and look at some adults - took one look at their noses, which are not even particularly short, and changed my mind.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Nope - not for me .....


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Well let's see....

Did I purchase a dog because it was cute?

No


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

No I hate stubby noses, I think it's bad breeding,, they don't look nice and the poor things have trouble breathing.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

labradrk said:


> I don't find them cute personally. I'm much more attracted to athleticism and working type dogs, something which most flat faced breeds are generally not.


Sorry to anybody who has a flat faced dog but I really dont see the appeal but they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Like Labradrk I like slim, athletic looking dogs who are fit for function, but having said I dont like flat faces, I dont like snipey muzzles either.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> There seems to be a perception amongst people that write articles on dogs that flat-faced breeds are more visually appealing (cute), and that this is likely to be due to their more baby-like faces, than those with 'proper' noses.
> 
> This is about appearance and how appealing you find them. We're all aware (or should be by now) of the health implications for the dog.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Oh come on now you know this place well enough to know no one is going to keep to appearance, it will all start about the health issues. Then as per thread so far start trading insults said breeds appearance which result in pissed off owners....


----------



## Kiren (Dec 15, 2015)

I have a cavalier, his nose is long enough to allow him to have a very good quality of life. He runs around like any other spaniel breed, and keeps up with my friend's husky when we do our half-day hikes. He sometimes struggles in hot weather but not really any more so than most other dog breeds. He doesn't have any issues associated with his nose length and can even wear a muzzle.
I don't think that I could have a breed with a shorter nose than his (including many other cavaliers I've seen- and especially the King Charles spaniel) and I certainly don't think it's cute.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Leanne77 said:


> Sorry to anybody who has a flat faced dog but I really dont see the appeal but they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Like Labradrk I like slim, athletic looking dogs who are fit for function, but having said I dont like flat faces, I dont like snipey muzzles either.


No offence would be taken on comments like this  as nothing offensive in it...


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm not too keen on dogs with flat faces and I don't like dogs with long or pointy noses either! I much prefer dogs with square faces like my Schnauzer and ones with slightly "squishy! faces like my Shar-Pei, but I'd never buy a Pei with too many wrinkles. But then of course I'm biased. One of the prettiest dogs I've owned was Chloe, my little Tibetan Spaniel.with her tiny tipped up nose.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Frenchies and a well-bred red & white Boxer aside, they do absolutely nothing for me whatsoever.


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Bradley doesn't have breathing problems & he doesn't breathe loudly, he doesn't suffer in the heat, he runs around for hours, he's very athletic, he can track, he can jump...really he can do anything a pointy nosed dog can do.

I also don't think he looks anything like a baby!


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm not a flat face fan either, I love the dachshunds long pointy nose and how they rest them on my lap and gaze upwards into my face without lifting their heads. Now THAT'S cute ! 
Reena loves nuzzling in my pockets , nose in up to the hilt , and rooting round for treats, old tissues, sweet wrappers, crisp packets.... you name it.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

As you can see this dog who who was bred with no purpose other than appearance who's seemingly been hit on the face by a frying pan has no issues breathing and is fit agile and healthy.


----------



## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Don't think that they would allow people to breed short nose dogs if like what everyone was saying on here. All dogs have certain health issues with what ever breed they are. My dog never had any problems at all . And was very cute looking


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> View attachment 262619
> View attachment 262616
> View attachment 262617
> View attachment 262618
> ...


Oh and he can keep up with those dogs who were bred with a purpose other than appearance


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Oh, my preferences change depending on what current mutt has her feet under the table - I'm a love the one yer with type - but generally speaking I'm not a fan of squashy, flat-faces. 

Mind you, not a fan of overly long and pointy snouts either. Sound like Goldilocks. The face of a black lab or Molly Smith's Molly would be my ideal - 'just right'. 

I don't consider Cavs very flat-faced. I did once and they really didn't appeal to me until I started looking into the breed more and ended up really wanting one - not for looks, but for breed character, etc. 

I don't know any very flat faced Cavs or any with breathing problems. Perhaps it's down to the breeding.

Mum has a shih tzu and she is the funniest looking wee bugger I ever did see but her stupid, gorgeous, ridiculous face has really grown on me. I adore her.


----------



## Codiemalamute (Jan 25, 2016)

A flat faced dog is a dog bred to the detriment of the animal for the sake of human vanity. 
Nothing appealing about that for me.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wee T said:


> Oh, my preferences change depending on what current mutt has her feet under the table - I'm a love the one yer with type - but generally speaking I'm not a fan of squashy, flat-faces.
> 
> Mind you, not a fan of overly long and pointy snouts either. Sound like Goldilocks. The face of a black lab or Molly Smith's Molly would be my ideal - 'just right'.
> 
> ...


Most sensible people wouldn't chose a dog purely on looks.

My mate has always had Cav's along side Rottweilers and Shibas great wee dog her current one is bonkers lol

I don't like the look of adult male Frenchies, bitches remain quite pretty boys don't but their characters won me over, clever, intelligent, fast, funny little dogs, real clowns who love everything...


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Most sensible people wouldn't chose a dog purely on looks.
> 
> My mate has always had Cav's along side Rottweilers and Shibas great wee dog her current one is bonkers lol
> 
> I don't like the look of adult male Frenchies, bitches remain quite pretty boys don't but their characters won me over, clever, intelligent, fast, funny little dogs, real clowns who love everything...


I love the character of Frenchies & pugs, every one I've met has been a really sweet, friendly people oriented dog


----------



## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm afraid they don't appeal to me at all, along with most types of exaggerated features. I like little dogs, but I prefer them to be in proportion for their size and shaped... well, how I'd expect a dog to be shaped!

Harley's body shape is quite similar to a shih tzu's, but happily he has a longer muzzle


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm the opposite actually as I do find them cute generally, but I'm pretty certain I wouldn't own one due to the health conditions that some brachy breeds suffer from, and besides at this stage in my life I'm pretty set on larger, sportier types.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Popular with a lot of people, OH included who really likes French Bulldogs, Not me though have never found brachycephalic breeds appealing or breeds I would like to own. afraid going to be spitz types until I die or nothing. Am now going to sit on hands to prevent me from typing anything about breeding for exaggerated conformation and the perils.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Popular with a lot of people, OH included who really likes French Bulldogs, Not me though have never found brachycephalic breeds appealing or breeds I would like to own. afraid going to be spitz types until I die or nothing. *Am now going to sit on hands to prevent me from typing anything about breeding for exaggerated conformation and the perils.*


I fear your hands may go numb


----------



## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

I can see the appeal of some of the less extreme breeds. I don't like the bulgy eyes which often seem to come with the flat faces. I tend to be drawn to dogs with longer noses and legs that look like they could run all day if they wanted to. Having said that though I wouldn't rule out a flatter faced dog if it was healthy and fitted our family at the time.

I rather like "jugs" (jack russel x pugs)


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Most sensible people wouldn't chose a dog purely on looks.
> 
> My mate has always had Cav's along side Rottweilers and Shibas great wee dog her current one is bonkers lol
> 
> I don't like the look of adult male Frenchies, bitches remain quite pretty boys don't but their characters won me over, clever, intelligent, fast, funny little dogs, real clowns who love everything...


Temperament wise pugs quite appeal to me, they seem to be fun loving, quirky little characters. However, I would never own one because I dont like the way they look. I like to think of myself as very sensible, too sensible most of the time, but looks win hands down for me, I could never own a dog that I didnt find pleasing to the eye. I actually rejected my current rescue dog initially because I thought she was ugly but as it happened I ended up with her (I still think she aint the prettiest!)


----------



## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Not for me, I already have a snorer here (hubby) couldn't cope with another. 

Sis in law has a Shih Tzu while I love him to bits his squished nose isn't an appeal to me, he is panting far earlier than Mont on walks then has to have a lay down and a cool off in some water.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I fear your hands may go numb


I fear they are beginning to twitch a lot at the moment


----------



## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm not a lover, my friend has a little pug and she does agility with her, I think a lot of issues come from the dogs being overweight too, as most flat faced dogs and generally toy dogs like cavaliers as well are very often overweight, I remember last summer a women panicking because the sun had come out and her two pugs that were barrels on legs were wheezing and grunting horrendously and she was ushering them under a bush into the shade to cool off, yet my two were charging about as it wasn't really that hot


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Pugs don't appeal to me at all. But then, that's probably because Skip doesn't like Brachy breeds and Pugs are definitely the most common of all Brachy breeds around here. 

That being said, there's an English Bulldog at the end of the street. Skip hates him but I adore him! His character is amazing and he makes me laugh. I wouldn't ever own one, I don't think. But I like them. 
Frenchies, I absolutely adore! I met two at one of the craft fares I did last year and they were amazing! So fun! One was a baby and if I knew Skip would approve, I'd have stolen him  

I don't judge a dog based on how they look. If it's a good fit within the household, it's more than welcome, regardless of other people's perceptions and even my own! I have more criteria than vanity


----------



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Whilst I wouldn't at the moment choose a squashy nose over a beaky nose, I would never say never.
Its sad that the snub nosed breeds have become fashionable because usually fashions lead to poor breeding practices and sick unwell animals, but a nice dog from a good breeder is such a different proposition.


For me cuteness has got nothing to do with appearance at all, cuteness is bought about by that individual animals quirks and character. 

I thought my current dog was seriously ugly when I got her, I would walk away from those who exclaimed how cute she was shaking my head and muttering about insanity. Now as her personality has developed and I have got to know her funny little ways I would say she is a cute as a button.


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Flat faced breeds are not pleasant looking to me at all (cat or dog). I like dogs to have a muzzle


----------



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I've always had Mastiff types ranging from Boxers, Bull Mastiffs through to quite a few Dogue de Bordeauxs & now a British Bulldog... I can't say that long nosed dogs do anything for me at all.
I've never had any with breathing problems, maybe that's just the smaller types, such as Pugs, with the extremely flat noses??


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm in the middle. I really like the look of many moderately brachy dogs; some of the French bulldogs, Bostons, American bulldogs, and some of the recreated bulldogs like the Victorian.

But I only like short ish muzzles - not non existent ones. I really dislike the look of flat faces like most pugs and pekes. Closed pinched nostrils and bulgy eyes both really freak me out.


----------



## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

If we are going by looks alone then no I don't find them appealing at all. I still love them because they are dogs and they all have their own little personalities but given a choice I would rather have one with a longer nose. 

The health issues and their ability to breathe properly puts me off further so I don't think I would ever own one.


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

I have never gotten a dog based on looks.I have always gotten dogs based on being a good fit for my life.I have loved one breed ever since i was young and have a very good fit with them.I like many different dogs and my wish list is very lengthy but i know my limitations as well.


----------



## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

They're not my cup of tea personally but then again I consider this guys face cute. 









His nose is far from flat! hehe 
Having said that I think it's great when you see a well bred flat faced breed where they can actually breath normally. There is a little pug on our walks and he's a lovely sight to see. He has a longer muzzle and can run and play with no difficulty.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

my dog doesn't have a flat face, isn't fat, and still manages to snore!!!
They are no cuter than other breeds/ individuals Imo.


----------



## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

I think they're adorable! But then I'm massively biased.  My two flat faces have no trouble running about and playing, and are fun loving, energetic dogs:

















The extremes? No. There's flat faced and then there's _flat faced. _Some dogs are bred with such exaggeration I can only feel sad for them. I can honestly say I've never seen any excessive panting or discomfort in mine. But then it's all about moderation. There's a woman in my area who has too lovely and friendly pugs but with they're overly exaggerated flat faces they can't join in with the play and fun simply because they can't breathe. There's nothing cute about that. I think it's a case of to each their own. Everyone has their own personal preferences. On an side note, my dogs look nothing like babies and that really would never be a plus point for me. That's just downright weird.


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Visually, I just love big nosed dogs. The bigger the better IMO. I don't find flat faced dogs attractive but that wouldn't stop me from having one as I wouldn't choose a dog on looks. If I did, I'd never have chosen a springer as I don't find them attractive looking either.


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

I seem to be out numbered with my opinion  I love these brachy breeds. I haven't been shy about my love of pugs. I've also loved all the Bulldogs, frenchies etc that I've met. However it's not solely their looks that do it for me, their size mixed with their big personalities have always struck me (big dog in a small dog body kinda thing  )

Do I prefer one to the other? No. I love kyzer and he's so handsome, put I don't look at him or a pug & think I prefer one to the other.  most brachy breeds would suit my life style & that's part of what attracts me to them. 
I didn't answer the poll as I'd choose 'no preference'  it'd depend on the individual dog if I had to choose between one or the other (in a rescue situation for example) & how they'd fit in with our lifestyle.


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm not sure how accurate this is ;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachycephalic_syndrome
The list of brachycephalic breeds on Wikipedia includes Bichon, Maltese, Newfoundland, Yorkie and Staffy which surprised me.
I must admit some of the flatter faced breeds don't physically appeal to me - every pug I have met has had an amazing, friendly personality but the flat face, deep wrinkles and skin folds just look unhealthy not cute.
However the Tibetian Spaniel's appearance is less extreme and really appeals to me, I would call their faces cute - I have no idea if they would face similar health issues as breeds like pugs.

So for me I suppose it depends on just how flat the face is???

As for the original post about flatter faces being more appealing as they look more baby like - I do see that in Chi, Tibetian Spaniels etc and wonder if that was the original appeal but then the breeding has become more extreme.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Not for me sadly. I prefer my longer snouted dogs. I cant be doing with a dog that can struggle to breath. I like tall slim dog breeds.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

As a lot of you know I am a Pug owner but it is not through choice ( although I would not be without him now ), I like many others do not like the flat faced dogs, and all the issues that come with it and do not find them cute to look at, but their big eyes do have a certain something , they have so much expression in them and their temperament is so loving and friendly to EVERYONE. Chip does run around like a lunatic sometimes especially when off lead and does not get out of breath that quickly but still a lot quicker than a lot of others and I think he is only able to do this because of corrective surgery to his nasal passages when he was very young. I am also not a fan of exceptionally long pointy muzzles either


----------



## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

I think French Bulldogs are really cute but then again, if there was one thing I could change about them it would be their flat nose. I think I like their personality more than their looks to be honest.

Apart from that I'm not a fan of flat-faced dogs at all. Aesthetically I like hounds and pastoral dogs mostly. GSDs, collies, whippets, RRs, etc. GSPs too.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

In the end I didn't vote. It's all subjective, innit. They aren't my absolute preference but I've never chosen a dog for looks and I find all dogs 'cute'. Even the really ugly ones . Sure, they all have some endearing quality about them, even if its not primarily aesthetics.

Tbh, I was surprised by the OP. I didn't realise flat-faced dogs were considered particularly cute and I certainly never saw them as particularly baby-like. Didn't realise this was a thing. Interesting.

(I'm assuming baby-like means puppy-like, with their short snouts. Right?  Else a lot of people are coming across some damned ugly babies. :Wideyed Likewise, if I saw a dog that resembled a baby I wouldn't think 'Naww, pug!'. I'd be thinking, 'Well, that's a rather unfortunate looking dog.' )


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

An interesting little article - about human biology and how we are inclined to find large eyes etc appealing, such as Disney cartoon characters 
http://retrieverman.net/2013/03/11/what-drives-the-evolution-of-brachycephalic-dogs/


----------



## Montgomery (Oct 31, 2015)

I find several brachy breeds visually appealing and I suppose it is a partly because of their shorter noses, as a shih tzu with full length nose would not be quite as a adorable to me, for example.


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2016)

Personally, I don't find flat faces on dogs appealing, I'm more drawn to a big old hound schnoz or a sighthound needle nose 
But when I think of cute, it's more behavior and personality that do it for me, much less so appearance. 

I guess that's why we have the variety of breeds that we do. What some find appealing, others don't. Like hairy fluffy dogs that some think are so lovely, to me, that appearance is just "meh". Give me a slick coat that shows the dog's structure any day. I tease my friend with CAS about how lovely her dogs are, too bad about all the hair, and she in turn teases me about my "naked" dogs 
When I am drawn to individual dogs who are fluffy and hairy, it's because of who the dog is, not the coat.


----------



## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

Must admit i don't get the appeal of current fashion for bulldogs, frenchies & pugs. Not a fan of flat faces nor the more protruding eyes & wrinkles. I'm sure theres a scale of less exaggerated to fairly extreme & its not a judgment on the dogs themselves. I think staffy is probably stubbiest snout that I like. 
Sighthounds form has followed function but still fairly extreme in that they are medically a bit different to normal dogs http://www.coutovetconsultants.com/blog/are-sighthounds-really-dogs.html


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2016)

Leanne77 said:


> Temperament wise pugs quite appeal to me, they seem to be fun loving, quirky little characters. However, I would never own one because I dont like the way they look. I like to think of myself as very sensible, too sensible most of the time, but looks win hands down for me, I could never own a dog that I didnt find pleasing to the eye. I actually rejected my current rescue dog initially because I thought she was ugly but as it happened I ended up with her (I still think she aint the prettiest!)


I'm glad you said this, I was sitting here feeling like a horrible person because looks absolutely matter to me. Of course it's not the ONLY thing that matters by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely a factor. I'm surprised so many people claim it has no influence on their choice of dog.


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

Happy , healthy , no problems breathing , lovely temperament , energy and able to walk whatever distance I take him , active , competes in agility and just the perfect dog.

Not 'ugly' , he's a dog just like all the other breeds.

I agree some flat faced breeds are bad and some of them i wouldn't own my self , but you find half the time there also very overweight.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

So long as a dog is healthy I don't think I have a great preference ....mine all have noses however 



rona said:


> i did see a Cavalier the other day running around like a normal Spaniel. It was a pleasure to watch


A Cavalier King Charles Spaniel *is* a normal spaniel and isn't brachycephalic. They should have normal noses.

The* King Charles* Spaniel has the shorter nose .... I'm not so keen on those.



AceOfSpades113 said:


> My Aunt happens to have two Cavaliers and for one, its breathing all but stops at times and when it happens she has to cover its nostrils for a few seconds as the vet instructed.. It panics me to think what would happen if she wasn't there to help it breath again  I think this is one breed in particular where there are some extremes which don't even fit the breed standard- such as this one of hers. Not adorable dogs whatsoever in my eyes, but then again, she thinks my dogs are some of the ugliest she has ever seen so goes both ways :Hilarious


That's a breeding issue I'm afraid ...not the breed. None of ours in 10 years have had any breathing issues. They all run, train and work alongside my other dogs.



Kiren said:


> I have a cavalier, his nose is long enough to allow him to have a very good quality of life. He runs around like any other spaniel breed, and keeps up with my friend's husky when we do our half-day hikes.


Yup ....ours, too.










J


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, I don't wish to upset anyone but, apart from some of the attached health issues, I find flat faced dogs rather curious looking creatures and would never choose to own one myself.

The specimens that I have met over time, however, have always seemed happy, excited, fun little souls and I can soon see their appeal through these qualities.


----------



## Sarahlou444 (Jun 26, 2015)

I am a pug owner so I guess I would say I do find flat faced dogs cute. I feel that I have to say we did do our research to try and find a good breeder to avoid getting a pug with many health issues. Although he isn't quite 1 yet at the moment he doesn't show any signs of breathing difficulties and he is very active without getting out of breath quickly. I kind of hope pugs go out of fashion soon because while they are popular there are going to be more and more badly bred pugs who add to all the health issues. I also feel sometimes a bit like I get judged for owning a pug, people make assumptions about you as an owner and sometimes I feel almost like I have to apologise for owning one.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://cavalierhealth.org/brachycephalic.htm

"Until 2011, there had been some dispute among researchers as to whether the cavalier King Charles spaniel is a brachycephalic breed or a mesaticephalic (or mesocephalic) breed. However, in a 2011 German study, the researchers concluded that the CKCS was brachycephalic but that it had a wider braincase in relation to length than in other brachycephalic breeds."

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/small-animal-r...specialist-procedures/brachycephaly-expertise

"Brachycephalic breeds include pugs, English and French bulldogs, cavalier King Charles spaniels and Pekingese."

Sorry. While I've seen a few that are absolutely fine, I've seen more that struggle for breath. Maybe not as severe as Pugs, Bulldogs ect. but still having difficulty


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Meezey said:


> View attachment 262619
> View attachment 262616
> View attachment 262617
> View attachment 262618
> ...


I bl00dy love trundle pants


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rona said:


> Sorry. While I've seen a few that are absolutely fine, I've seen more that struggle for breath. Maybe not as severe as Pugs, Bulldogs ect. but still having difficulty


Apologies. I am surprised. I have never considered it as such (and our oldest Cavvie in the family is 13). It's very sad that people still continue to breed poor examples I agree. Health tests and good lines ar*e vital*. It is a breed that should never be bought from unheath-tested/unscreened parents or from byb. I have seem immense improvement in this breed in the past 5 years and long may it continue, they are amazing little dogs (and up until the last 10 years or so i wasn't a small dog person!)



Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> J


No breathing problems ...proper nose length.

J


----------



## quagga (Jun 11, 2014)

I think they are cute in the sense that I find all dogs cute  Probably wouldn't have one except maybe a boxer cos they mostly don't fit my requirements.

Also I have a normal nosed spaniel who snores for England


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

I have never been a fan of small dogs, so will always go for the larger ones. That is until a friend brought her pug over and I instantly fell in love with his amazing character. So despite my misgivings about breathing problems, I could very well see myself getting myself a class clown (although I would far prefer it was from a good breeder, so the chances of breathing problems are greatly reduced)


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

BlackadderUK said:


> I've always had Mastiff types ranging from Boxers, Bull Mastiffs through to quite a few Dogue de Bordeauxs & now a British Bulldog... I can't say that long nosed dogs do anything for me at all.
> I've never had any with breathing problems, maybe that's just the smaller types, such as Pugs, with the extremely flat noses??


I wouldn't class mastiff types as flat-faced at all, and boxers only moderately so. I'd say flat faced starts with a muzzle shorter than that of a boxer.



Fleur said:


> I'm not sure how accurate this is ;
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachycephalic_syndrome
> The list of brachycephalic breeds on Wikipedia includes Bichon, Maltese, Newfoundland, Yorkie and Staffy which surprised me.
> I must admit some of the flatter faced breeds don't physically appeal to me - every pug I have met has had an amazing, friendly personality but the flat face, deep wrinkles and skin folds just look unhealthy not cute.
> ...


That's an interesting point and I think you're probably right. I also wonder if people who find some breeds appealing because they're more baby-like are more likely to humanise their dogs or call them 'furbabies' or other similar terms that frankly make me cringe.
I also like the look of Tibetan Spaniels.



Wee T said:


> In the end I didn't vote. It's all subjective, innit. They aren't my absolute preference but I've never chosen a dog for looks and I find all dogs 'cute'. Even the really ugly ones . Sure, they all have some endearing quality about them, even if its not primarily aesthetics.
> 
> *Tbh, I was surprised by the OP. I didn't realise flat-faced dogs were considered particularly cute and I certainly never saw them as particularly baby-like. Didn't realise this was a thing. Interesting.
> 
> (I'm assuming baby-like means puppy-like, with their short snouts. Right?  Else a lot of people are coming across some damned ugly babies*. :Wideyed Likewise, if I saw a dog that resembled a baby I wouldn't think 'Naww, pug!'. I'd be thinking, 'Well, that's a rather unfortunate looking dog.' )


No, proper human babies! Round-faced, large forward-looking eyes. There's been loads of research about people's reactions to these cues. Seems humans are generally pre-programmed to find the look of a baby appealing (good for survival of the species) no matter how annoying the little monsters are when they're teething and screaming at 3am and you need to sleep. The same appeal extends to other round-faced, large eyed animals such as Bush Babies.


----------



## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Its aaaaall about the snooters here!!

I don't see the visual appeal in smooshed faces at all; that wrinkle above the nose, bug eyes, overbites and wonky teeth... Just don't get it


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> No, proper human babies! Round-faced, large forward-looking eyes. * There's been loads of research about people's reactions to these cues. Seems humans are generally pre-programmed to find the look of a baby appealing (good for survival of the species) no matter how annoying the little monsters are when they're teething and screaming at 3am and you need to sleep. The same appeal extends to other round-faced, large eyed animals such as Bush Babies.*


I've heard about this on a programme I watched a while back about why humans find certain animals, or age of animals appealing. Some animals are found more appealing as adults, some as babies and some for their lifetime....... some animals aren't considered appealing at all, and it was something to do with face shape and our pre-programmed thing to babies. 
What interests me is I adore animals, show me a picture of puppies, kittens, pandas etc etc and I'm in love ............ show me a human baby and I feel nothing. Now what is that about?


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

They don't appeal to me personally no. Same with Cats. My girl was a half Persian and we got her because she didn't have the Persian nose.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Animallover26 said:


> I've heard about this on a programme I watched a while back about why humans find certain animals, or age of animals appealing. Some animals are found more appealing as adults, some as babies and some for their lifetime....... some animals aren't considered appealing at all, and it was something to do with face shape and our pre-programmed thing to babies.
> What interests me is I adore animals, show me a picture of puppies, kittens, pandas etc etc and I'm in love ............ show me a human baby and I feel nothing. Now what is that about?


I keep wondering this when I keep hearing about this research and they think this is the reason behind it. Because personally for me, I don't find babies cute at all. But baby animals make me melt. So what's the science behind then huh?


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

McKenzie said:


> I'm glad you said this, I was sitting here feeling like a horrible person because looks absolutely matter to me. Of course it's not the ONLY thing that matters by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely a factor. I'm surprised so many people claim it has no influence on their choice of dog.


Tbf it's easy for me to say because attraction is something that grows on me. It's the same with men.  I tend to find men (and dogs) more attractive as time goes on, and as their character appeals to me more so do their looks.

Which works out well because I have never chosen a dog - they've been unwanted and I took them in. I never had my ideal dogs in terms of looks but every dog I ended up loving and thought the most beautiful dog. (The husband has grown on me too.)

Take Willow (no, really, please take her!!). I never wanted a small fluffy - I love big, sleek black dogs but we ended up with her and now I ADORE Westies. And even other small dogs in general.



Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Apologies. I am surprised. I have never considered it as such (and our oldest Cavvie in the family is 13). It's very sad that people still continue to breed poor examples I agree. Health tests and good lines ar*e vital*. It is a breed that should never be bought from unheath-tested/unscreened parents or from byb. I have seem immense improvement in this breed in the past 5 years and long may it continue, they are amazing little dogs (and up until the last 10 years or so i wasn't a small dog person!)
> 
> No breathing problems ...proper nose length.
> 
> J


I think the breed clubs are doing a great job of improving the breed. When we looked into getting a ckc we could have got a pup from a breeder on the KC site, thinking they did all the relevant tests.

We subsequently learned that many breeders only test the minimum recommended by KC but to truly improve the health of breed the breed club recommended other tests; turns out not many do - certainly not in our country.

A beautiful breed but the health problems are heartbreaking. A shame the KC can't insist on more tests to improve the breed quality. Some breeders are working so hard but if others aren't obligated to it can only improve so much.

Reading that you have seen an improvement heartens me!



Burrowzig said:


> I wouldn't class mastiff types as flat-faced at all, and boxers only moderately so. I'd say flat faced starts with a muzzle shorter than that of a boxer.
> 
> That's an interesting point and I think you're probably right. I also wonder if people who find some breeds appealing because they're more baby-like are more likely to humanise their dogs or call them 'furbabies' or other similar terms that frankly make me cringe.
> I also like the look of Tibetan Spaniels.
> ...


Oh, crikey. Well they may remove me from the human gene pool. I think I'm wired wrong.

I love children, dogs, cats but never a coo-er of babies, pups or kittens.

Mind you, if it's the Gremlin effect, I must admit I always preferred Spike to Gizmo. That guy's got spunk. :Smug

I find child and animal development fascinating. It's the older being, with its character forming or formed, that I like rather than 'ooh, ickle baby'.

Anyone brings their new baby to work it's the older sibling, if brought along, who'll get my attention.

Same with pups; any litters I saw it was always the bitch I was more taken with.

Interesting subject.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Wee T said:


> ............
> 
> *Oh, crikey. Well they may remove me from the human gene pool. I think I'm wired wrong*.
> 
> ...


Me too. I find babies more scary than appealing. I've never viewed the idea of having one with anything other than horror/revulsion and at my age it's too late now, even if I were to change my mind. My 'biological clock' has never ticked.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Burrowzig said:


> Me too. I find babies more scary than appealing. I've never viewed the idea of having one with anything other than horror/revulsion and at my age it's too late now, even if I were to change my mind. My 'biological clock' has never ticked.


Ah, now, well I'm a bit different. I never thought I could have children and spent the first half of my adult life trying and failing miserably. And yet it wasn't the baby bit I ached for (sounds melodramatic but it was an ache so must have been that clock). I didn't find it hard seeing babies but seeing families with children killed me.

Even when it eventually happened I prefer them growing rather the baby bit. Apparently mothers are supposed to see their babies through rose-tinted specs but I was a dreadful mother and could see my boy for what he was - a beast. I'm tiny, he was huge so he was swollen and puffy and all crooked, squashed nose - he looked like he'd gone 10 rounds with Tyson. He was just ugly. I was high on the gas and air and kept saying, 'Look at my ugly baby. My beautiful, ugly baby.' Thankfully he has grown into his face. Somewhat.

I don't feel that much when I see babies. I go through the pleasantries to pass myself. Children and dogs, well, I'm a puddle.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> I'm glad you said this, I was sitting here feeling like a horrible person because looks absolutely matter to me. Of course it's not the ONLY thing that matters by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely a factor. I'm surprised so many people claim it has no influence on their choice of dog.


Me too. My first consideration when choosing a dog is looks. I then filter through the dogs I like the look of to find a dog that fits the bill temperament and health-wise too. I will go one step further and say that even _colour _plays a big part for me - I like my Greyhounds to be black & white, and I am not a fan at all of any of the colours within any breeds that are not permitted in the breed standard.

Thankfully I like a huge variety of breeds - after all, I have a sleek slim & tall Greyhound, a scruffy tiny Westie and two hulking great slobbery hairy beasts! 

But bug-eyes, squished faces, flabby mushy chops, overbites & underbites?! - nope, no chance. I don't find that cute or appealing at all.

However wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same thing? Good job there is over 200 KC-regconised breeds for us to choose from, and I gather from their popularity, there is no shortage of admirers for the snub-faced dogs!


----------



## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

From a purely aesthetic stand point I must admit I don't find the extremely brachycephalic breeds at all attractive, quite the opposite actually 

I love the opposite extreme, to me sighthounds are the absolute pinnacle of canine beauty. I know there are plenty of people who find them weird- or ugly-looking though.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm not too keen on human babies either despite having two. I'm amazed I ever had any tbh, surprised my mum too, as I'm not particularly motherly.
If someone shows me their newborn I make the appropriate noises, but not that bothered, but show me a puppy or a kitten then I'm a puddle. I just can't take my eyes off them and just want to cuddle them constantly.
Funny how it goes, maybe that's why I'm not keen on the squishy nosed dogs and cats


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Siskin said:


> I'm not too keen on human babies either despite having two. I'm amazed I ever had any tbh, surprised my mum too, as I'm not particularly motherly.
> If someone shows me their newborn I make the appropriate noises, but not that bothered, but show me a puppy or a kitten then I'm a puddle. I just can't take my eyes off them and just want to cuddle them constantly.
> Funny how it goes, maybe that's why I'm not keen on the squishy nosed dogs and cats


This is so me.

When I told my mother we were expecting she actually said ''what? a _human _baby?''. She was shell-shocked and had long said that the only grand-children she expected to get would have four paws! And when we had the second, well, you could have knocked her down with a feather 

Love my kids (if you can call them that now?!) and of course my little grand-daughter - but others kids do nothing for me. Give me dogs and puppies anyday.


----------



## StrawberryBlonde (May 27, 2015)

Nope, based aesthetics alone none of the flat faced breeds appeal to me & I struggle to see how others like that look, especially all white ones (sorry!). However some of the jolliest little dogs iv met have been Bostons & Frenchies so I can see how it can be easy to fall for them.


----------



## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

McKenzie said:


> I'm glad you said this, I was sitting here feeling like a horrible person because looks absolutely matter to me. Of course it's not the ONLY thing that matters by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely a factor. I'm surprised so many people claim it has no influence on their choice of dog.


It's definitely a factor for me too. There are many breeds that would fit my lifestyle, so of course I'm going to pick one that I think is beautiful. And there are plenty of breeds that I don't think that about!



Wee T said:


> Ah, now, well I'm a bit different. I never thought I could have children and spent the first half of my adult life trying and failing miserably. And yet it wasn't the baby bit I ached for (sounds melodramatic but it was an ache so must have been that clock). I didn't find it hard seeing babies but seeing families with children killed me.
> 
> Even when it eventually happened I prefer them growing rather the baby bit. Apparently mothers are supposed to see their babies through rose-tinted specs but I was a dreadful mother and could see my boy for what he was - a beast. I'm tiny, he was huge so he was swollen and puffy and all crooked, squashed nose - he looked like he'd gone 10 rounds with Tyson. He was just ugly. I was high on the gas and air and kept saying, 'Look at my ugly baby. My beautiful, ugly baby.' Thankfully he has grown into his face. Somewhat.
> 
> I don't feel that much when I see babies. I go through the pleasantries to pass myself. Children and dogs, well, I'm a puddle.


I'm the same, kids 3+ are so much more fun than babies. The baby stage is just something to get through before you have a kid! Kind of like Ridgeback puppihood (why did I do that to myself??)


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I didn't answer the poll because neither option reflects my views. I find "some" flat faced dogs cute, but that would be based more on their personality coming through than their looks, cute to me doesn't mean what the dog looks like but more its character. For instance I would describe Indie my current rottie as cute because her personality and character are cute whereas I might find a stereotypically cute breed less appealing if the character and personality aren't coming through. I'm not particularly attracted by a dog's nose and don't find the length of it affects their appeal to me - again its more of a personality thing. I can't say as I'm overly attracted to rotties based on their looks but I seem to keep getting them  I'm another who isn't remotely attracted to babies, rarely find one cute and have yet to meet a dog that reminds me of one.


----------



## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

I wouldn`t own a flat faced breed mainly because of the breathing. I`m not a fan of how they look either although I have met plenty of them and they all seem to have a lovely personality and really nice dogs, so I can see why they are popular.
I don`t really like the looks of the two extremes though so flat faced breeds and then sighthounds. Although I`m sure they are lovely, that`s just me.
I have to say though, there are some breeds I find really visually appealing but would never own them as their personality and traits do nothing for me.


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Muttly said:


> I keep wondering this when I keep hearing about this research and they think this is the reason behind it. Because personally for me, I don't find babies cute at all. But baby animals make me melt. So what's the science behind then huh?





Wee T said:


> Ah, now, well I'm a bit different. I never thought I could have children and spent the first half of my adult life trying and failing miserably. And yet it wasn't the baby bit I ached for (sounds melodramatic but it was an ache so must have been that clock). I didn't find it hard seeing babies but seeing families with children killed me.
> 
> Even when it eventually happened I prefer them growing rather the baby bit. Apparently mothers are supposed to see their babies through rose-tinted specs but I was a dreadful mother and could see my boy for what he was - a beast. I'm tiny, he was huge so he was swollen and puffy and all crooked, squashed nose - he looked like he'd gone 10 rounds with Tyson. He was just ugly. I was high on the gas and air and kept saying, 'Look at my ugly baby. My beautiful, ugly baby.' Thankfully he has grown into his face. Somewhat.
> 
> I don't feel that much when I see babies. I go through the pleasantries to pass myself. Children and dogs, well, I'm a puddle.





Siskin said:


> I'm not too keen on human babies either despite having two. I'm amazed I ever had any tbh, surprised my mum too, as I'm not particularly motherly.
> If someone shows me their newborn I make the appropriate noises, but not that bothered, but show me a puppy or a kitten then I'm a puddle. I just can't take my eyes off them and just want to cuddle them constantly.
> Funny how it goes, maybe that's why I'm not keen on the squishy nosed dogs and cats


Someone better get out the mop and bucket due to all these people turning to puddles!


----------



## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

SingingWhippet said:


> From a purely aesthetic stand point I must admit I don't find the extremely brachycephalic breeds at all attractive, quite the opposite actually
> 
> I love the opposite extreme, to me sighthounds are the absolute pinnacle of canine beauty. I know there are plenty of people who find them weird- or ugly-looking though.


I have never been a big fan of pointy dogs apart from a Saluki but from seeing pictures on here and meeting a gorgeous little brindle Whippet called Luna on our walks I have been totally won over to the loveliness of a small pointy dog


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I didn't answer the poll because neither option reflects my views. I find "some" flat faced dogs cute, but that would be based more on their personality coming through than their looks, cute to me doesn't mean what the dog looks like but more its character. For instance I would describe Indie my current rottie as cute because her personality and character are cute whereas I might find a stereotypically cute breed less appealing if the character and personality aren't coming through. I'm not particularly attracted by a dog's nose and don't find the length of it affects their appeal to me - again its more of a personality thing. I can't say as I'm overly attracted to rotties based on their looks but I seem to keep getting them  I'm another who isn't remotely attracted to babies, rarely find one cute and have yet to meet a dog that reminds me of one.


That's such a good, thoughtful response.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't find flat-faced dogs appealing, and those with bulgy eyes even less so. I like collies best - sort of medium range in pointy nosed-ness - though I also like the look of sighthounds and may have a Whippet at some point. Anything jowly/slobbery is also right out for me. The character is something people talk about a lot with regard to Pugs, Frenchies and Bostons though I've never known any of them well enough as individuals to make any judgement. 
As a kid, I lived next door to a family who kept Pekingese, I'm sure they had more of a nose back in the 1960s.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

love pugs, bostons and frenchies
love mastiffs without the drooping dripping looks[so no neos or ddb's sorry]

but for me,what* ALWAYS* comes first is personality,

Give me a dog with personality, that is fit for purpose, can walk for miles and enjoy it and has a bit of devil may care attitude, then im a sucker

btw the crestie sitting on my feet is snoring like a train and he has a pointy nose


----------



## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I like big dogs and I wouldn't ever go for a breed with loads of health issues because I'm not confident in my ability to spot a good breeder and I don't find flat faced dogs particularly visually appealing, I think bull terriers have cute faces for instance so my tastes clearly run the other way anyway. (Not that I pick dogs on looks anyway)

But, I keep meeting pugs and they're so lovely...they're just the cheeriest, friendliest wee things, I can't help but find them totally charming - and funny, I like funny...

If I was looking for a dog I could totally see myself being swayed by a pug, even though on paper they're not what I'd want.


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Well least now I know not to introduce Doug the pug into dog chat when he appears in our life   I'll just pick out the pug lovers from this thread & PM them to form a secret pug society ompus @Rosie64 are you in!?


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Fleur said:


> I'm not sure how accurate this is ;
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachycephalic_syndrome
> The list of brachycephalic breeds on Wikipedia includes Bichon, Maltese, Newfoundland, Yorkie and Staffy which surprised me.
> I must admit some of the flatter faced breeds don't physically appeal to me - every pug I have met has had an amazing, friendly personality but the flat face, deep wrinkles and skin folds just look unhealthy not cute.
> ...


Tibetan Spaniels are one of the few breeds that haven't been "messed around" and had their looks modified by breeders. If you look at old photos and drawings they still look much the same as the original. They're a healthy, active, agile breed as well and mine had no problems with her breathing. Personality wise they're very intelligent, cocky, confident and comical dogs but inclined to be rather bossy. Tibbie owners will tell you "Tibbies are always right"!

The down side of the breed is because of their independent nature they're quite difficult to train, and you need a VERY secure garden because some are escape artists "par excellence". Chloe for example could burrow under fences, climb over them, and wriggle through the smallest holes imaginable and she could easily outrun my Pei.

But having said that Tibbies are adorable little dogs!


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

JenSteWillow said:


> Well least now I know not to introduce Doug the pug into dog chat when he appears in our life   I'll just pick out the pug lovers from this thread & PM them to form a secret pug society ompus @Rosie64 are you in!?


There's no need to get the hump! Loads of people have said they love the character of pugs. Even people who don't like the look of flat-faced breeds can still appreciate the dog behind the face. It's not all about looks.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

JenSteWillow said:


> Well least now I know not to introduce Doug the pug into dog chat when he appears in our life   I'll just pick out the pug lovers from this thread & PM them to form a secret pug society ompus @Rosie64 are you in!?


I'm sure we all appreciate each others dogs here, big, small, flat faced or not  Actually @Rosie64's little Chip is one of my fave PF dog's, and I adore @VickynHolly's little Ted too.


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> There's no need to get the hump! Loads of people have said they love the character of pugs. Even people who don't like the look of flat-faced breeds can still appreciate the dog behind the face. It's not all about looks.


I was joking. Hence the emotion faces being winking, smiling.. Etc. I assumed that would make it obvious, sorry  Definitely no hump here


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I'm sure we all appreciate each others dogs here, big, small, flat faced or not  Actually @Rosie64's little Chip is one of my fave PF dog's, and I adore @VickynHolly's little Ted too.


Yeah I'm pretty sure we do  I love how friendly this forum is (/can be  ) especially on picture threads, no one goes ignored like you see on other places!


----------



## Charliegirl68 (Jul 17, 2015)

Logan seems to love flat faced breeds. All his doggy mates are either Frenchies or pugs and everywhere we go he migrates towards them. Keep telling my oh our next dog will have to be a Frenchies


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

it's not even so much the flat faces for me, but I cant stand bulging eyes and then seeing people posting how gorgeous and healthy their dog with eyes bulging out of its head is  and that he/she must have puppies  plus the obvious breathing issues that can come with a flat face, we (me and my 5 year old) walked past an English bulldog when out for the day yesterday and my daughter straight away commented on a the noise the dog was making just breathing while plodding along slowly and i outright told her it's because he can't breathe properly because his face is squashed

My friends next door neighbour has a persian he's called Vader and it's the most suitable name I've ever heard, his breathing is so bad it makes me cringe.

though I have to admit I do want a frenchie one day  but i will do my best to find one as healthy as possible


----------



## Sarahlou444 (Jun 26, 2015)

JenSteWillow said:


> Well least now I know not to introduce Doug the pug into dog chat when he appears in our life   I'll just pick out the pug lovers from this thread & PM them to form a secret pug society ompus @Rosie64 are you in!?


 I would definitely join a secret pug society!


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Sarahlou444 said:


> I would definitely join a secret pug society!


me too I can be a pug in waiting


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

JenSteWillow said:


> Well least now I know not to introduce Doug the pug into dog chat when he appears in our life   I'll just pick out the pug lovers from this thread & PM them to form a secret pug society ompus @Rosie64 are you in!?


Yes I am in Lol :Hilarious  , but why keep it secret I am proud of my boy regardless of what any one thinks or says 



Dogloverlou said:


> Actually @Rosie64's little Chip is one of my fave PF dog's,


Thank you from Chip and I


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Depends on how flat for me. I like Boxers but prefer the ones with the longer muzzles to some of the really brachy ones I've seen. I don't like the real extremes like Bulldogs, Pugs, Pekes and find them extremely unappealing rather than cute.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Not a fan. I don't find them appealing but more importantly I think it is hugely unethical to breed for something that causes so much in the way of health problems and suffering. 
I don't like the cop out of 'well bred' either when it comes to extremely brachycephalic breeds such as pugs, as if a flat face is a main feature of the breed then it makes no odds how well bred it is.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

[QUOTE


picaresque said:


> Not a fan. I don't find them appealing but more importantly I think it is hugely unethical to breed for something that causes so much in the way of health problems and suffering.
> I don't like the cop out of 'well bred' either when it comes to extremely brachycephalic breeds such as pugs, as if a flat face is a main feature of the breed then it makes no odds how well bred it is.


Utterly untrue, and this is one of the "myths" that those who judge the breeds on the few fat dogs they have met or they have watched it on TV. It makes a huge difference how well bred they are. BYB are popping them out left right and centre with not a even a nod given to health let alone long term well being of the dogs they produce, those who breed for health temperament don't produce dogs with stenotic nares, they aren't so short and cobby reducing the spinal issues, and with tails and with longer muzzles, lots of them around.

It's strange I always find those who use the "no such thing as a healthy xxx" are those who have very little experience with them, and strangely those who live with them and have experience with seeing and being round lots of said breeds know nothing, and they cruel because their dogs are suffering daily, and they can't breath ever and they are just so stupid they can't see it we of course had Eric hooked up to oxygen when he runs and keeps up with the Rottweilers.. Rather than posting false information why not try and educate people what to look for in a good dog and point them in the direction of those who do breed for health in mind, and give your knowledge of every breed and breeder @picaresque I am sure you know them all personally and the dogs they produce.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just to add how many back yard breeders and those who pop out puppies to pay their bills are part of this?

http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/how-to-participate.html

But of course it makes no difference at all about how well bred they are.

Also I love how those who have very little knowledge think they are bred for a flat face:

Where does it say the dog should have a flat face?

Head square in appearance and in proportion to dog's size. Skull nearly flat between ears, domed forehead. The skin covering the skull and forehead should be supple enough to allow fine wrinkling when the dog is alert. Well defined muzzle, broad, deep and set back, muscles of cheeks well developed. Stop well defined. Lower jaw deep, square, broad, slightly undershot and turned up. Nose black and wide, relatively short, with open nostrils and line between well defined. Lips black, thick, meeting each other in centre, completely hiding teeth. Upper lip covers lower on each side with plenty of cushion, never so exaggerated as to hang too much below level of lower jaw. -

Head relatively large and in proportion to body, round, not apple-headed, with no indentation of skull. Muzzle relatively short, blunt, square, not upfaced. Nose black, fairly large with well open nostrils. Wrinkles on forehead clearly defined without exaggeration. Eyes or nose never adversely affected or obscured by over nose wrinkle. Pinched nostrils and heavy over nose wrinkle is unacceptable and should be heavily penalised 

Find it odd that must dogs I've meet who have required surgery on their noses have been from BYB.

Yes their are huge health problems in the breed, but not every breeder is equal, and I for one get thoroughly pissed off with those smug self righteous people who look down their noses a those who dare to own a brachy breed...


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Hey hey hey! Don't take away Chip pics!!! Or any other Brachy PF dog pics! :Arghh 

I voted no, I don't think they are cute BECAUSE they have a flat face. Doesn't mean they are not cute overall! In fact, Chip is one of the PF dogs I really look forward to pics of, because he has such character and he is cute!


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> I don't find flat-faced dogs appealing, and those with bulgy eyes even less so. I like collies best - sort of medium range in pointy nosed-ness - though I also like the look of sighthounds and may have a Whippet at some point. Anything jowly/slobbery is also right out for me. The character is something people talk about a lot with regard to Pugs, Frenchies and Bostons though I've never known any of them well enough as individuals to make any judgement.
> As a kid, I lived next door to a family who kept Pekingese, I'm sure they had more of a nose back in the 1960s.


I'll send you Eric for a few weeks lol


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

JenSteWillow said:


> I was joking. Hence the emotion faces being winking, smiling.. Etc. I assumed that would make it obvious, sorry  Definitely no hump here


I find the emoticons rather small and, being very long-sighted, I don't see the detail in them very well. Sorry for missing the humour.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I'll send you Eric for a few weeks lol


Miss,miss, me miss, me ,me,me, awww miss!


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't dislike bracy breeds, but I really hate to see the very poorly bred ones whom can barely breathe and are usually overweight which increases the issue tons! Plus I do find bulging eyes and very flat noses quite ugly but again its personal preference. I find some sighthounds not particularly appealing whereas I really like whippets or a good scruffy lurcher.
They're just not my sort of breed. I think the only Bracy-type dog I would ever consider, would be a frenchie or a boston but I highly doubt this would ever happen as I like my herding breeds too much and perhaps a spaniel ( more so OH  )


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I pretty much like the look of every breed love pointies, love big tiny, hairy smooth OH takes the mikey because I always LOVE every breed I see lol There are plenty of breeds I would never own as they don't match my life style, but the only really big no for me is goober, overly slobbery dogs not my cup of tea, love them still but wouldn't own one... A character of a dog is hugely important to me more so than looks, love big personalities, hence having Eric, he has an amazing personality huge character, he's robust enough to play with Rottweilers, and fit enough to run rings round Cian, he doesn't struggle for breath any more than any of my dogs, copes better in heat than the Rottweilers, he snores loudly but then so does Cian.... lol


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Looks do matter to me, I like pointy noses, brachy breeds don`t appeal. Each to their own, people tell me they can`t bear my `skin and bone` dogs. I don`t actually find any dog cute though and certainly not a word I would use to describe any type or breed!


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Some people might not find Bigby appealing because of his big nose and teeny eyes and people have said to me in the past he looks 'weird' but to me he is the cutest most stunning male doggy ever and his big nose and beedy eyes are the best things about him, but then all smooths are gorgeous


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I must live on another planet p yes I know its often been said) but I have yet to meet a pug/boston/frenchie struggling for breath. A friend of mine has two Bostons and they ran rings around my lot when we met up for a walk in the New Forest a couple of years ago, combined with that they were hysterically funny - great little characters. I'm not saying they aren't out there, of course they are but are they as prevalent as this thread would have us believe?


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I have come across more than a few Bulldogs struggling for breath. Every time I see one they're either lying down, or pottering along at snail pace on a walk. The worst was a couple of years back as we was entering a fun dog show. This lady was at the entrance with her Bulldog who was gasping for breath, making alot of noise and I was genuinely concerned about his welfare as it was a warm(ish) day and I thought he might be suffering heat stroke. The lady was fanning him down and pouring water in and around his head......was very upsetting to witness actually. And with Pugs, I think people think of the breathing and funny little noises as normal for the breed where as in fact it's not and is because the dog is compromised. Lively little things, yes. My previous neighbour had a Frenchie/Pug cross who was a delightful little thing, often walking a couple of miles daily, but her tongue was practically curled up to her eyeballs on return with lots of snorting and wheezing.


----------



## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Are staffies considered flatter faced? They don't have as defined a muzzle as collies and labs or the long pointy nosed breeds. My parents adopted an old staffy, the rescue didn't know how old she was when my parents took her so had no idea how long she 'had left' but she's still with them 8 years later! I don't think I'd get anything any shorter nosed (in relation to the dogs size) than a small staffy. 

I'm looking for a little dog but prefer papillons to brussels griffons for example. Not keen on really long pointy noses but I do like Shelties (saw a puppy today) think that's the biggest I'd go. I really like crossbreeds though as they are a one off so wouldn't say no to rescuing a pug cross for example that had a slightly longer muzzle as a result of the cross, even though I wouldn't pay breeder prices for a pedigree pug.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Staffies are not flat faced no.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I actually saw a bulldog in a pet shop a few months back. Nice looking dog, but as I walked around the shop, all I could hear was the dog breathing very loudly, felt very sorry for the dog.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Yet oddly we had the first Northern Ireland Bulldog Club open show next to us last year, in Sept it was really warm and the bulldogs didn't seem to fare any worse than the Rottweilers in the heat. Maybe breeding has some thing to do with it?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Yet oddly we had the first Northern Ireland Bulldog Club open show next to us last year, in Sept it was really warm and the bulldogs didn't seem to fare any worse than the Rottweilers in the heat. Maybe breeding has some thing to do with it?


Or perhaps some breeds just don't do well in the heat? None of my rotties have been good in the heat neither was my GSD yet the pointers love it.


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Meanwhile, Bradley is just like...









Oh, and he only dribbles if there's cheese :Happy


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Gemmaa said:


> Meanwhile, Bradley is just like...
> 
> Oh, and he only dribbles if there's cheese :Happy


Bradley is like... 'screw you all, I'm going to show off my standing on two feeties ability'


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

There's a few big flat nosed breeds that I quite like, but it's not for their flat noses. Also, I guess it also depends on how flat the nose really is? Even within a breed you get the more extreme non existent noses and then you get 'short' snouts?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Has to be said find this face so cute ... Bulldog Charity Match and BBQ in July none of the Bulldogs or Frenchies struggled in the heat but a young working Retriever was hating it


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

He is very cute!


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

I have ticked YES because I think all dogs are cute!!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Staffies overheat very easily.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Miss,miss, me miss, me ,me,me, awww miss!


You'd post the wee git back lol


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light. 
Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog. 
I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself  

It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

It's really sad the way this thread is going


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Muttly said:


> It's really sad the way this thread is going


I agree  The world would be an extremely boring place if we all liked the same things...

I enjoy seeing photos of everyones dogs and always try to make sure I at least like the threads or comment if I have the time as I love seeing everyones dogs regardless of whether it would be a breed I'd like to own or not.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Labrador Laura said:


> This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself
> 
> It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


Nooo! Please don't do that. I can't speak for everyone, but I love seeing the photos that people post (although the off lead ones do make me crazily jealous) of all dogs, whatever size or shape.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Exactly, I've learned about a fair few new breeds since I've been on here that I never would of done before. Plus you get to see and hear about them and not just pics on google. Regardless if I personally would own them or not is totally irrelevant. I'm still interested and love to see a happy dog with it's family.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I like the diversity of so many different breeds on this forum - terriers, hounds, collies, poodles, rotties, staffies, newfies, spaniels, shepherds, shar peis, pugs, retrievers, bulldogs, frenchies, boxers, pointers, spitzes, hovi, lots and lots of mutts  etc It would be pretty boring if I just saw photos of the same breeds everyday.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Labrador Laura said:


> This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself
> 
> It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


Don't do that pretty please - your photos are a fine example showing what your lovely boy can do, he always looks happy and athletic to me so please don't stop posting photos of him.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Don't do that pretty please - your photos are a fine example showing what your lovely boy can do, he always looks happy and athletic to me so please don't stop posting photos of him.


Agree, I love Zab pics


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Labrador Laura said:


> This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself
> 
> It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


I can understand why you'd feel like that, especially in light of a recent Boxer thread which appears to have driven someone else away. 
Everytime there's a thread along the lines of 'what breeds don't you like?', terriers, small dogs, and bull breeds tend to be the least popular, and it can make you feel a bit..."eff you lot then!", but I say NAY! :Finger
I think the underdogs should have more photos on here, and if people don't like them, they don't have to look .

I think it would be a real shame if you stopped posting photos of Zab, I think he's awesome


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Labrador Laura said:


> This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself
> 
> It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


Fut them  Opinions tend not to be based on fact or knowledge, some people just get pleasure out of being bum holes. I love your boy X I am going to just post more and more HUGE pictures of the French Pig Dog.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Gemmaa said:


> I can understand why you'd feel like that, especially in light of a recent Boxer thread which appears to have driven someone else away.
> Everytime there's a thread along the lines of 'what breeds don't you like?', terriers, small dogs, and bull breeds tend to be the least popular, and it can make you feel a bit..."eff you lot then!", but I say NAY! :Finger
> I think the underdogs should have more photos on here, and if people don't like them, they don't have to look .
> 
> I think it would be a real shame if you stopped posting photos of Zab, I think he's awesome


I'd agree with this but I wouldn't even say it's that people 'don't like' those dogs; I reckon its just a case of 'Ok, what's your preference'. When preference is stated so black or white, like in the context of this thread, I can see how it might read as 'Eww, don't like that dog' but I don't think anyone feels that way at all.

There's not one picture I've looked at on here that I haven't admired but many wouldn't be my personal preference of breed. Doesn't mean I can't coo over a daft face or sleek coat or sleeping beauty and truly appreciate the qualities that dog has.

It's preference not dislike imo. I really hope no one takes it too much to heart. Please keep posting.

Regards,

Owner of a fluffy yappy terrier.

And proud.

Except for the occasions of deep shame and mortal embarrassment.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Labrador Laura said:


> This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself
> 
> It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


Don't you dare - selfish. :Shifty  I love your pics.


----------



## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

The world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things! Just because someone doesn't find a flatter faced dog visually appealing, doesn't mean they can't appreciate that dog as a whole. The thread asked about aesthetics only, which is certainly why I answered the way I did, but I've met loads of brachy dogs that I've adored and that have been amazing because (and I imagine, as a bunch of dog lovers, we would all agree here) the character shines through above all else 

I'm sure there are lots of people who don't like the look of my dogs either, maybe because they are too small or too fluffy, but eh, who cares!?


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2016)

Just like all the millions of times that small breeds have been trashed in this forum. All the times people have said how much they dislike terriers. The 'who's your favourite' threads. And we're always told not to 'take it personally'.

Generally the only people who bother to comment on photos of Mckenzie are other Westie owners. 

I learned long ago the only person who actually gives a toss about my dog is me.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Labrador Laura said:


> is thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself


Please don't let the minority stop you posting the lovely pic's of your boy the ones that don't like it don't have to look, the majority I am sure will enjoy them, I have a Pug whom i am very proud of and will not let the views of others stop me posting pic's of him for those who want to see them


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> Just like all the millions of times that small breeds have been trashed in this forum. All the times people have said how much they dislike terriers. The 'who's your favourite' threads. And we're always told not to 'take it personally'.
> 
> Generally the only people who bother to comment on photos of Mckenzie are other Westie owners.
> 
> I learned long ago the only person who actually gives a toss about my dog is me.


Nooooo.... lol


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wee T said:


> I'd agree with this but I wouldn't even say it's that people 'don't like' those dogs; I reckon its just a case of 'Ok, what's your preference'. When preference is stated so black or white, like in the context of this thread, I can see how it might read as 'Eww, don't like that dog' but I don't think anyone feels that way at all.
> 
> There's not one picture I've looked at on here that I haven't admired but many wouldn't be my personal preference of breed. Doesn't mean I can't coo over a daft face or sleek coat or sleeping beauty and truly appreciate the qualities that dog has.
> 
> ...


It's all well and good saying a breed isn't for you which is great, more people should realise some breeds are for them, problem is people can't just say, "no I don't think they are cute they don't appeal to me" people the judge the ethics of those breeding and owning them, people then discuss what they hate about them in detail, shuddering and boking while doing so... It always goes this way, then random people pop up to express their disgust disdain etc be it about small dogs large dogs terriers bull breeds it always happens. I knew it would happen. People just seem to go out of their way to be provocative about their dislike of certain types or breeds of dogs knowing they will offend members who own and love those breeds or types, and it's not like they don't know it will given past threads...


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

McKenzie said:


> Generally the only people who bother to comment on photos of Mckenzie are other Westie owners.


Well, that's because we're largely superior to the rest of the riff raff. How I like it. :Yawn  :Kiss



Meezey said:


> It's all well and good saying a breed isn't for you which is great, more people should realise some breeds are for them, problem is people can't just say, "no I don't think they are cute they don't appeal to me" people the judge the ethics of those breeding and owning them, people then discuss what they hate about them in detail, shuddering and boking while doing so... It always goes this way, then random people pop up to express their disgust disdain etc be it about small dogs large dogs terriers bull breeds it always happens. I knew it would happen. People just seem to go out of their way to be provocative about their dislike of certain types or breeds of dogs knowing they will offend members who own and love those breeds or types, and it's not like they don't know it will given past threads...


Ah, ok, fair enough. I suppose that's different. That sounds rather antagonistic so I understand if people are peed off. I don't know how it goes of old and have a terrible habit of (unintentionally) skim reading so have missed the boaking and there's likely stuff I have read but wouldn't have picked up an agenda like regulars would.

There's no doubt that there's sneering and snobbery in the dog world. Round here if it's not a field dog you're scoffed at. I couldn't give a flying fiddlers what they make of me and mine cos when I put my hand in my treat pouch to get a treat I can give them the finger. :Finger Yes, I am that juvenile. Makes me feel better. :Shamefullyembarrased

S'pose I just need to get wise to it on here but it makes no odds to me. Water off a duck's back.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

SusieRainbow said:


> I'm not a flat face fan either, I love the dachshunds long pointy nose and how they rest them on my lap and gaze upwards into my face without lifting their heads. Now THAT'S cute !
> Reena loves nuzzling in my pockets , nose in up to the hilt , and rooting round for treats, old tissues, sweet wrappers, crisp packets.... you name it.


Thats what flat faced dogs do, lots of photos of pugs laid with head down looking up into the owners face.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm not sure I see what's offensive about this thread? I personally couldn't care less whether people like my breed/types of dog's....as long as I do that's all that matters  As @Gemmaa said, brachy types & terriers are always at the bottom of the pile for breeds that people generally don't like/want to own. Just one of those things, and to be honest I can see why some have that opinion. But that's just it - it's an opinion by some. As I said I generally do find 'flat faced breeds' cute, so I'd be quite upset to see some stop posting


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Nooo! Please don't do that. I can't speak for everyone, but I love seeing the photos that people post (although the off lead ones do make me crazily jealous) of all dogs, whatever size or shape.


Oh lol, I could kiss you for this. 

I'm the same - love looking at any and all dogs but a photo of an offlead GROUP walk on the beach nearly brought me to my knees one day. :Arghh


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> Just like all the millions of times that small breeds have been trashed in this forum. All the times people have said how much they dislike terriers. The 'who's your favourite' threads. And we're always told not to 'take it personally'.
> 
> Generally the only people who bother to comment on photos of Mckenzie are other Westie owners.
> 
> I learned long ago the only person who actually gives a toss about my dog is me.


cough cough ! I often comment because I think she's pretty darn cute, I love Westies and she's beautiful !


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Gemmaa said:


> Meanwhile, Bradley is just like...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your boy is *stunning*! I adore all dogs, I'm a pretty flexible person so I doubt there's a dog I couldn't live with . I do have a special place in my heart for the flatter faced breed but I do think there is a massive difference between flatter faced and just all out flat faces! Personally, I feel that good breeders manage to keep the epitome of their breed characteristics without compromising on health, temperament or structure.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Wee T said:


> I couldn't give a flying fiddlers what they make of me and mine


my sentiments exactly I love my dog and I am fairly sure he loves me That is all I care about any one's derogatory comments towards me or him are water off a ducks back to me, as far as I am concerned ALL dogs are cute in in their own way I certainly would not let any one elses comments upset me


----------



## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

I can't quote some of the posts my internet is hit and miss tonight.

I did want to say though some of the people who have commented that they won't post anymore and some who have just commented in general on this thread, have dogs who have stood out to me as having the X- factor or in this case the C-factor.

Whatever the face having the Cute Factor has nothing to do with your nose, please keep posting, I don't post often but I have noticed your dogs and though awww adorable wish they were mine. 


Please keep my heart lifted by continuing to post, I need the smiles.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> Just like all the millions of times that small breeds have been trashed in this forum. All the times people have said how much they dislike terriers. The 'who's your favourite' threads. And we're always told not to 'take it personally'.
> 
> Generally the only people who bother to comment on photos of Mckenzie are other Westie owners.
> 
> *I learned long ago the only person who actually gives a toss about my dog is me*.


Absolutely. I post photos of my lot and get a few likes and a couple of comments if i'm lucky but I realise i'm not one of the popular members and I dont post that my dogs did this, and my dogs did that so nobody really knows their characters so nobody really cares. I dont take it to heart, I just dont post photos any more as a general rule.

I can never understand why people get upset or take it personally when people comment that they dont like certain breeds, just take it on the chin, does it really matter at the end of the day? I've seen things posted about Border Collies being X, Y and Z that are certainly not true of mine but I just let it go over my head.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> View attachment 262619
> View attachment 262616
> View attachment 262617
> View attachment 262618
> ...





McKenzie said:


> Just like all the millions of times that small breeds have been trashed in this forum. All the times people have said how much they dislike terriers. The 'who's your favourite' threads. And we're always told not to 'take it personally'.
> 
> Generally the only people who bother to comment on photos of Mckenzie are other Westie owners.
> 
> I learned long ago the only person who actually gives a toss about my dog is me.


Molly, Pippa and Penny send special none westie kisses to McKenzie! Sally sends a westie hug x


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I would normally say I prefer a dog with a 'proper' nose lol but met a Frenchie x chi today and OMG, soooo cute!!


----------



## VickynHolly (Jun 23, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I'm sure we all appreciate each others dogs here, big, small, flat faced or not  Actually @Rosie64's little Chip is one of my fave PF dog's, and I adore @VickynHolly's little Ted too.


Awww, thank you 
Didn't plan on owning a Shih Tzu, now plan on owning loads more!.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> my sentiments exactly I love my dog and I am fairly sure he loves me That is all I care about any one's derogatory comments towards me or him are water off a ducks back to me, as far as I am concerned ALL dogs are cute in in their own way I certainly would not let any one elses comments upset me


Absolutely. My main concern is working on Willows reactivity. That and her wellbeing are what matter to me. Even with that she brings us so much happiness. What people make of her snout, coat, size or any part of her matters not one jot.

Mind you, I couldn't imagine any saying a bad word about Chip - he is an absolute dote!



Leanne77 said:


> Absolutely. I post photos of my lot and get a few likes and a couple of comments if i'm lucky but I realise i'm not one of the popular members and I dont post that my dogs did this, and my dogs did that so nobody really knows their characters so nobody really cares. I dont take it to heart, I just dont post photos any more as a general rule.
> 
> I can never understand why people get upset or take it personally when people comment that they dont like certain breeds, just take it on the chin, does it really matter at the end of the day? I've seen things posted about Border Collies being X, Y and Z that are certainly not true of mine but I just let it go over my head.


Goodness, I'm so surprised to hear that. Seriously am. If I remember rightly your pictures are stunning. Seriously stunning. Your post males me wish I'd commented at the time but I probably wasn't logged in and didn't think. I remember poring over one particular lot - they were striking. Just rarely comment.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Wee T said:


> Absolutely. My main concern is working on Willows reactivity. That and her wellbeing are what matter to me. Even with that she brings us so much happiness. What people make of her snout, coat, size or any part of her matters not one jot.
> 
> Mind you, I couldn't imagine any saying a bad word about Chip - he is an absolute dote!
> 
> *Goodness, I'm so surprised to hear that. Seriously am. If I remember rightly your pictures are stunning. Seriously stunning. Your post males me wish I'd commented at the time but I probably wasn't logged in and didn't think. I remember poring over one particular lot - they were striking. Just rarely comment*.


Thank you, those are lovely comments and I appreciate them, but my intention wasnt to make anybody feel guilty. I dont expect to get lots of comments and likes, I just post them in case somebody has an interest.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I must live on another planet p yes I know its often been said) but I have yet to meet a pug/boston/frenchie struggling for breath. A friend of mine has two Bostons and they ran rings around my lot when we met up for a walk in the New Forest a couple of years ago, combined with that they were hysterically funny - great little characters. I'm not saying they aren't out there, of course they are but are they as prevalent as this thread would have us believe?


With Pugs (and other brachy breeds) I have seen quite a few ops to correct breathing by opening the nasal passages up, but the overwhelming problem I saw with Pugs was eye problems. They kept the ophthalmologist in business. Because of their protruding eyes they would often pop out of their sockets. Sometimes they could be saved, other times they would have to be removed.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

My favourites are fox faced cheeky buggers...but old type pugs are darlings and some boxers are such soulful dogs...bostons are cute as Frenchies are so sweet..cavs are adorable too ...

But as I have exotic ( feline)...what can I say....

Interesting that somehow flat faced breeds whether dogs or cats are so sweet and good natured most of them?


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I'd hate it if people stopped posting pics of their dogs because of this thread 
My description of my perfect looking dog would be "big dog with big nose" yet two of my favourite pf dogs are small, brachy breeds. I think they're both adorable and their wee personalities make me adore them even more.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

labradrk said:


> With Pugs (and other brachy breeds) I have seen quite a few ops to correct breathing by opening the nasal passages up, but the overwhelming problem I saw with Pugs was eye problems.


The nasal op was one of the first ops that Chip had to have when he was just a few months old, but imo the biggest problem with pugs in particular is obesity, but that is an owner induced problem not an actual breed health one


----------



## Guest (Feb 19, 2016)

I think there is a place (maybe not on this thread) for a conversation about health issues in breeds, how much selective breeding has contributed to those issues, and what responsible breeders can and are doing about it.

I got frustrated on a thread a while back about people commenting on Breez being “old” for a dane at 7. I don’t give a shit if people like danes as a breed or not (and clearly people don’t give a shit about informing you they don’t like your particular choice of breed and exactly why), whatever... but it does bug me when people (the general dog owning public) expect them to be dead at 8 and are impressed if they make it to 10. So I can definitely empathize with the frustration at people making health comments about your chosen breed. Especially when those comments are largely uneducated and inexperienced. 

That said, if there is an issue with a breed, and that issue is brought on by selective breeding, it is only right for the breed club to address it and be open about the conversation going on about that issue. 
Here in the US, the GDCA recognized longevity as an issue and has made great strides in improving the health of the breed, part of which has included breeding for less exaggerated dogs. American danes might scoffed at for being “dainty” and not as heavy as European danes, yet, they also live longer, don’t have as many issues with haw eyes and cherry eye, along with other benefits of breeding for a less exaggerated dog. 

There is room to honor the uniqueness of a breed while still work to improve the heath and well-being over all.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> I'm not sure I see what's offensive about this thread? I personally couldn't care less whether people like my breed/types of dog's....as long as I do that's all that matters


I don't think the thread is offensive ....though it was always liable to be a little contentious ...but I can understand the sentiment of those who feel a little 'attacked' by the comments when they own these breeds, for by association even if not said outright, comments such as 'I wouldn't buy one because of the breathing' translates as 'how could you encourage such bad breeding by owning one'.

I own Cavaliers. The breed actually can't be mentioned on a thread without someone posting in reference to their health issues. I've read numerous comments stating 'I'd love to own one but they have so many health issues I couldn't'. They all have breathing problems and die before they're six of an enlarged brain. That's if their hearts don't get them first.

So no, I couldn't care less if people like the breed of my dog either (though I have to say that Cavaliers are probably the most amazing little dogs I have ever had the privilidge to own) or think they're cute or whatever but when I read blanket observations I do sigh in despair ...and yes, sometimes my hackles can rise. By owning a Cavalier I am not condoning bad breeding ...we have third generation fully health tested dogs with no breathing issues whatsoever. And living easily into double figures. Active, healthy, happy etc etc etc .... and I am part of a growing number of Cavalier owners with such dogs.

As Ouesi says (above), 'there is room to honor the uniqueness of a breed while still work to improve the heath and well-being over all.' And that's true of all breeds. And cross breeds.

J


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> Please don't let the minority stop you posting the lovely pic's of your boy the ones that don't like it don't have to look, the majority I am sure will enjoy them, I have a Pug whom i am very proud of and will not let the views of others stop me posting pic's of him for those who want to see them


And for those who don't want to see them, they can just scroll past


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Absolutely. I post photos of my lot and get a few likes and a couple of comments if i'm lucky but I realise i'm not one of the popular members and I dont post that my dogs did this, and my dogs did that so nobody really knows their characters so nobody really cares. I dont take it to heart, I just dont post photos any more as a general rule.
> 
> I can never understand why people get upset or take it personally when people comment that they dont like certain breeds, just take it on the chin, does it really matter at the end of the day? I've seen things posted about Border Collies being X, Y and Z that are certainly not true of mine but I just let it go over my head.


There's a few members on here who's dogs I wish I saw more of and you are one of them. I think due to the volume of threads on this busy site some get missed and pushed down to the next page if people don't comment. I try to comment on all the threads with pics rather than just like. However, some pic hosting is blocked on my pc at work, so can't even see them :Arghh


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Labrador Laura said:


> This thread really sucks and has made me see so many people in a different light.
> Yeah yeah it's a public site and people can post what they like but this thread really hits hard to those who may have one of these breeds and love there dog.
> I won't be posting any more pictures of my boy as I now know what people truly think of him. So I'll just enjoy him myself
> 
> It's not just these breeds that suffer there are multiple breeds of dog that suffer due to breeding.


Goodness sake, we are a group of adults on a discussion forum not a bunch of kids in a playground.

As long as YOU love your dog, who cares what others think?! No need for throwing toys out of the pram.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Muttly said:


> There's a few members on here who's dogs I wish I saw more of and you are one of them. I think due to the volume of threads on this busy site some get missed and pushed down to the next page if people don't comment. I try to comment on all the threads with pics rather than just like. However, some pic hosting is blocked on my pc at work, so can't even see them :Arghh


Same here. I particularly notice it with @ellenlouisepascoe as I love seeing her Huskies


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I don't think the thread is offensive ....though it was always liable to be a little contentious ...but I can understand the sentiment of those who feel a little 'attacked' by the comments when they own these breeds, for by association even if not said outright, comments such as 'I wouldn't buy one because of the breathing' translates as 'how could you encourage such bad breeding by owning one'.
> 
> I own Cavaliers. The breed actually can't be mentioned on a thread without someone posting in reference to their health issues. I've read numerous comments stating 'I'd love to own one but they have so many health issues I couldn't'. They all have breathing problems and die before they're six of an enlarged brain. That's if their hearts don't get them first.
> 
> ...


Oh here, I hope I didn't raise your hackles when I posted about us looking into getting a Cav. To clarify we weren't put off by potential health implications we just couldn't find a good breeder. The breed club confirmed there were none in our country.

I think it's fantastic what good breeders are doing to redress the health thing that's associated with the breed and had there been a rescue available or a good breeder this side of the water we'd have been there like a shot. Unfortunately - even though we still did consider it - we figured the cost of flights for all of us, possibly requiring several visits, would be out of our budget.

A breed I will always hanker after and I always keep an eye out in rescue for them although they rarely come in. Obviously, having Willow I couldn't get another dog right now but a Cav will always be on the top of my wish list for the future.

Enjoy yours. I'm very jealous!


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Wee T said:


> Oh here, I hope I didn't raise your hackles when I posted about us looking into getting a Cav. To clarify we weren't put off by potential health implications we just couldn't find a good breeder.


lol no .... I'm of very good temperament really, I don't raise my hackles often 

I am sure you will find a lovely health tested Cavalier sometime .....

J


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I don't think the thread is offensive ....though it was always liable to be a little contentious ...but I can understand the sentiment of those who feel a little 'attacked' by the comments when they own these breeds, for by association even if not said outright, comments such as 'I wouldn't buy one because of the breathing' translates as 'how could you encourage such bad breeding by owning one'.
> 
> I own Cavaliers. The breed actually can't be mentioned on a thread without someone posting in reference to their health issues. I've read numerous comments stating 'I'd love to own one but they have so many health issues I couldn't'. They all have breathing problems and die before they're six of an enlarged brain. That's if their hearts don't get them first.
> 
> ...


An excellent post and one that as a Shar-Pei owner resonates loudly with me.

I belong to several dog forums and on one in particular, not PF I hasten to add, when I mentioned that my Pei had undergone entropion surgery, one member replied that I was irresponsible buying such an unhealthy breed and another said that in their opinion the breed should be "wiped off the face of the earth"! A couple of weeks ago on one of the Shar-Pei forums a new owner was extremely upset after her vet told her he thought the breed was ugly and she should be prepared for her puppy to grow up to be aggressive towards children???

Comments like these do nothing for the breed, their many conscientious owners, breeders and vets who are striving to improve the health and image of the breed.

As with Cavaliers, contrary to what the uninformed would have you believe, there are many Shar-Pei, particularly in Europe, who never develop entropion or suffer any chronic genetic disorders or who are dead by the age of 7. I know of several healthy Pei who are still very much alive and kicking at 10, 13, 14 and 15 years old! As for their being aggressive, people should really learn to read their Pei history books!


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Magyarmum said:


> I belong to several dog forums and on one in particular, not PF I hasten to add, when I mentioned that my Pei had undergone entropion surgery, one member replied that I was irresponsible buying such an unhealthy breed and another said that in their opinion the breed should be "wiped off the face of the earth"!


What a dreadful thing to say! I can't wrap my head around someone, who is allegedly a dog lover, coming out with this.


----------



## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

All a matter of opinion isn't it  I am not keen on flat faced breeds Taz luckily has a longer snout for a cav. 

It's the same with whatever breed you are drawn too, I myself could never have another cavalier because they are just so damn unhealthy. Even well bred ones from health tested parents end up with MVD / SM and I couldn't go through it all again. One of the reasons I love sibes, very little to complain about health wise.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> What a dreadful thing to say! I can't wrap my head around someone, who is allegedly a dog lover, coming out with this.


I think we would be wrong to assume that everybody on a dog forum or in a dog group is a 'dog lover'. There are varying degrees of interest in dogs and not all of them fall into the 'lover' category.

I have been a member on here since 2011, a member of other dog forums before that, and i'm a member of various dog groups on FB. However, I wouldnt call myself a dog lover, because I dont love all breeds and I dont love all individual dogs, I dont go gooey when I see another dog, I dont even stroke friends dogs. Yes, I have a huge interest in anything canine, I hate animal abuse and my life revolves around my own dogs but still, I would be hesitant to group myself in with those who call themselves 'dog lovers'.

Having said that, I would never say anything as mean as what was said about Shar Pei's.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> I think we would be wrong to assume that everybody on a dog forum or in a dog group is a 'dog lover'. There are varying degrees of interest in dogs and not all of them fall into the 'lover' category.
> 
> I have been a member on here since 2011, a member of other dog forums before that, and i'm a member of various dog groups on FB. However, I wouldnt call myself a dog lover, because I dont love all breeds and I dont love all individual dogs, I dont go gooey when I see another dog, I dont even stroke friends dogs. Yes, I have a huge interest in anything canine, I hate animal abuse and my life revolves around my own dogs but still, I would be hesitant to group myself in with those who call themselves 'dog lovers'.
> 
> Having said that, I would never say anything as mean as what was said about Shar Pei's.


I think you're reading too much into my comment


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I think you're reading too much into my comment


How so? You used the words 'alleged dog lover' and i'm just saying that the person who made the comment about Shar Pei's might not be a dog lover, just a dog owner - the 2 are totally different and may explain why the comments were made.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> How so? You used the words 'alleged dog lover' and i'm just saying that the person who made the comment about Shar Pei's might not be a dog lover, just a dog owner - the 2 are totally different and may explain why the comments were made.


One would assume, rightly or wrongly, that if you come onto a forum about dogs, then you have more than a passing interest. Yes, I clearly overused the word "love" for your liking, but that could be put down to pedantry. Let's move on, I really am not going to argue about this


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

...


MiffyMoo said:


> One would assume, rightly or wrongly, that if you come onto a forum about dogs, then you have more than a passing interest. Yes, I clearly overused the word "love" for your liking, but that could be put down to pedantry. Let's move on, I really am not going to argue about this


I don't think Leanne is 'arguing' .. Just explaining a different point of view as a member of a forum .. One that is quite interesting I think as it would explain the reasons why people make such comments that others may find 'odd' or 'offensive' to their own dog.
Obviously the shar pei comment is just ridiculous. But @Leanne77 s point made me understand this thread a bit more from a different point of view


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Goodness sake, we are a group of adults on a discussion forum not a bunch of kids in a playground.
> 
> As long as YOU love your dog, who cares what others think?! No need for throwing toys out of the pram.


I wasn't throwing my toys out the pram ! 
Just sick of this forum turning into a b#itching ground ! Going from one breed to another.

This forum was so lovely and every thread was a picture thread of everyone's dogs. Story's of their walks and asking advice. You can't even ask for advice now without someone turning it into a heated discussion.

And some of the comments on this thread are not nice , as a owner of one of those breeds you take it to heart because I do LOVE my dog and I hate to think people would think that of him and that he suffers when he clearly doesn't.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

I should have got in with this earlier.....


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Pfffft do you know it makes me laugh, every time threads like this start people get upset, then people say they don't understand why people get upset, that people shouldn't get upset because they don't give a fiddlers what people say about their dogs, that people are stupid getting upset.. Every fricking time people explain why they get upset, why they take the comments to heart and why it hurts them.. 

It's like ground hog day, every time, someone wades in with as much subtly as a sledge hammer and as much consideration as the flu then people splutter and act shocked when people get upset.... Coz of course it's never bloody happened before.... Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Give it a few weeks and a thread will pop up about dogs you dislike, why are all Rottweilers devil dogs etc and it'll happen again and the same people will not be understanding why others get upset..... :Jawdrop

It's amazing to witness... and lamenting about how not a shit is given by them.....


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Labrador Laura said:


> I wasn't throwing my toys out the pram !
> Just sick of this forum turning into a b#itching ground ! Going from one breed to another.
> 
> This forum was so lovely and every thread was a picture thread of everyone's dogs. Story's of their walks and asking advice. You can't even ask for advice now without someone turning it into a heated discussion.
> ...


I never remember the forum being ''so lovely with every thread being pictures or stories of walks'' - I certainly wouldn't have stuck around if that was the case. How dull. A bit of heated discussion between a group of adults with a mutual passion (dogs!) should be no big deal. But then you get over-sensitive folk in all walks of life.

I've never said I think these dogs suffer as a blanket statement - I can very much appreciate breeding has come a long way in most breeds, and you can have perfectly healthy snub-nosed dogs, just like any other - clearly as such is the case with your dog.

But just because someone does not find your choice of breed (or breed group, whatever) visually appealing - well, it's not a personal insult.

Sighthounds, terriers, bull breeds, mastiffs, Labradors - pretty much EVERY breed or breed group gets slated on each at one point or another - but like I keep saying, it would be boring if we all liked the same thing. If everyone got offended when their breed attracted a negative comment, we'd have no members left pretty quickly.

I've had a dreaded Neapolitan Mastiff (not a ''melting'' one, but still)  - I adore French Bulldogs and I find a flashy red & white Boxer to be one of the most stunning dogs about. I don't hate these breeds, but the vast majority are not for me, personally. What's the big deal about that?


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Pfffft do you know it makes me laugh, every time threads like this start people get upset, then people say they don't understand why people get upset, that people shouldn't get upset because they don't give a fiddlers what people say about their dogs, that people are stupid getting upset.. Every fricking time people explain why they get upset, why they take the comments to heart and why it hurts them..
> 
> It's like ground hog day, every time, someone wades in with as much subtly as a sledge hammer and as much consideration as the flu then people splutter and act shocked when people get upset.... Coz of course it's never bloody happened before.... Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
> 
> ...


But as I've just said to @Labrador Laura - ALL breeds/types/groups get a slating at one time or another on here. Terriers especially, but that gets brushed aside.

My breeds have been the subject of scrutiny in the past. Do I care or get upset? No! But they're _my _dogs and of course, it's makes not once ounce of difference to me whether _other_ people like them or not! I don't expect, want or need others to like, or approve of, my dogs. This is what I find so bizarre.


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Fut them  Opinions tend not to be based on fact or knowledge, some people just get pleasure out of being bum holes. I love your boy X I am going to just post more and more HUGE pictures of the French Pig Dog.


Please do , i think you should just take over the forums with Frenchie and Rottweiler pictures  I love your gang.



Gemmaa said:


> I can understand why you'd feel like that, especially in light of a recent Boxer thread which appears to have driven someone else away.
> Everytime there's a thread along the lines of 'what breeds don't you like?', terriers, small dogs, and bull breeds tend to be the least popular, and it can make you feel a bit..."eff you lot then!", but I say NAY! :Finger
> I think the underdogs should have more photos on here, and if people don't like them, they don't have to look .
> 
> I think it would be a real shame if you stopped posting photos of Zab, I think he's awesome


Yeah that Boxer thread was another one. The poor woman lost her dog on walk over Christmas and was showing off her new puppy and everyone just turned on her. I could see some of the reasons but the OP just wanted to show off her puppy and her happiness after losing her other Boxer. That's what I mean , things have changed around here, I never got the whole White boxers are unhealthy blah blah blah when I first introduced Zab 3years back. 
And now she hasn't come back along with many others !


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think it would be different if people were slagging off the temperament of certain breeds, such as Rotties & Staffies being classed as 'devil dogs' etc, then I'd be offended. But someone not liking my dog on looks alone doesn't bother me. That's why there is such a wide range of breeds to suit all our tastes 

FWIW @Labrador Laura I didn't even have Boxers on my mind when initially answering this thread, as for some reason I don't put them in the same bracket as other brachycephalic breeds. When I think of flat faced breeds as the OP asked, I generally only think of Pugs, Bulldogs, and the likes. One little breed I actually love with a very flat faced is the little Griffon! Adore them.

Again, I think everyone here can appreciate each others dogs regardless of size, looks and breed. It's what I love most about this forum


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm afraid I don't remember the forum ever being a magical place where people did nothing but share their beautiful experiences.

If I had a penny for every negative comment I had heard or seen written about Jack Russells over the years, I would have a bulging purse, and Staffies ........... well now, you do need a thick skin to own a Staffy these days. I have people walking toward me with their dogs, either crossing over the road or throwing up a hand and shouting "Is it alright"? ("It" is Rudi, our Staffy girl).

JRs aren't everyone's cup of tea, many people wouldn't have one if they were giving them away, but the point is, these are my dogs, I love them and I don't need everyone else to love them too.

I don't think of Boxers as a 'flat faced' Breed, so I am a little baffled as to why one member has decided to make the whole thread about herself.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think it would be different if people were slagging off the temperament of certain breeds, such as Rotties & Staffies being classed as 'devil dogs' etc, then I'd be offended. But someone not liking my dog on looks alone doesn't bother me. That's why there is such a wide range of breeds to suit all our tastes
> 
> FWIW @Labrador Laura *I didn't even have Boxers on my mind when initially answering this thread*, as for some reason I don't put them in the same bracket as other brachycephalic breeds. When I think of flat faced breeds as the OP asked, I generally only think of Pugs, Bulldogs, and the likes. One little breed I actually love with a very flat faced is the little Griffon! Adore them.
> 
> Again, I think everyone here can appreciate each others dogs regardless of size, looks and breed. It's what I love most about this forum


Same - I didn't even think of boxers when this thread occurred.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SixStar said:


> But as I've just said to @Labrador Laura - ALL breeds/types/groups get a slating at one time or another on here. Terriers especially, but that gets brushed aside.
> 
> My breeds have been the subject of scrutiny in the past. Do I care or get upset? No! But they're _my _dogs and of course, it's makes not once ounce of difference to me whether _other_ people like them or not! I don't expect, want or need others to like, or approve of, my dogs. This is what I find so bizarre.


You may not which is great. I own Rottweilers have done for decades, I could write a book on the abuse I have got and my dogs get, generally I don't care, I now own a Frenchies same,but as I am passionate about my dogs catch me on a wrong day slagging my devil dogs I will rip people new bum hole.... Other days I will shrug. I still though understand how it could upset people and empathise with those it does upset... But I stand by my comment it will happen in another thread and there will not be a shred of compassion from some. Not sure people have to understand it or even show empathy just understand everyone is different.

I personally find watching violence or suffering in films awful to watch even though I know it's not real it haunts me , others watch it without batting an eyelid... I cry at the drop of a hat in emotional charge situations, people might not understand it but I wouldn't expect others to belittle my emotions and neither would I belittle their seeming lack of emotions in those situations...


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Labrador Laura said:


> This forum was so lovely and every thread was a picture thread of everyone's dogs. Story's of their walks and asking advice.


You win my "post of the day award" and the keys to the City of Asgard.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> Same - I didn't even think of boxers when this thread occurred.


Me neither. To be honest, I don't think of Frenchies or Boxers as brachy - maybe that's why I like both breeds.. Ironically, it's the owners of these two I seem to have upset the most!

Brachy to me are Bulldogs, Pugs, Pekes, King Charles (not CKCS) etc.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Boxers and all white dogs were mentioned in the thread...


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm finding this thread getting very personal and silly now IMO.

All members love THEIR dogs.... if some members don't like your dog for say their looks then who cares? The dog doesn't care, you love your dog, so why should you care?

This thread wasn't implying that anyone with a 'bracy' breed is an irresponsible owner because their poor dogs have breathing issues etc because most PF members know to go to responsible breeders who want to breed away from these issues and because of this you all have happy, healthy doggies.

But there is no going away from the fact that breeds such as your pugs and bulldogs can have breathing difficulties etc due to poor inbreeding etc.

I am finishing work soon. I am going to go off home. See the two most perfect dogs in my eyes and not give a damn what other people think


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

SixStar said:


> I never remember the forum being ''so lovely with every thread being pictures or stories of walks'' - I certainly wouldn't have stuck around if that was the case. How dull. A bit of heated discussion between a group of adults with a mutual passion (dogs!) should be no big deal. But then you get over-sensitive folk in all walks of life.
> 
> I've never said I think these dogs suffer as a blanket statement - I can very much appreciate breeding has come a long way in most breeds, and you can have perfectly healthy snub-nosed dogs, just like any other - clearly as such is the case with your dog.
> 
> ...


It was alot better than what it is now , and I didn't say you had said they suffer it's other people comments I was talking about but I only replied to yours after more of less calling me a child who is throwing out her toys and now sensitive.

I'm not any those things I just a human being , I couldn't give one what people think of Zab I'm just saying some of the comments are not nice and can be hurtful. I don't want to be posting pictures and people thinking 'aww that poor dog, he must be really suffering and unable to breath ' when he's perfectly fine and a health happy dog.

I've had people come up to me at agility competitions and tell me ' this is no place for a Boxer ' their to hyper and you can do nothing with them. If I was over sensitive I would of ran off crying holding my Boxer in my arms , No I went into that ring and got a clear run with him ! 
I can't do that here , so I've just spoken up and don't agree with that has been said.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Meezey said:


> You may not which is great. I own Rottweilers have done for decades, I could write a book on the abuse I have got and my dogs get, generally I don't care, I now own a Frenchies same,but as I am passionate about my dogs catch me on a wrong day* slagging my devil dogs* .


Do you know what, I don't think I've ever heard Rottweilers or Staffies to be referred to as ''devil dogs'' anywhere other than in the media.

You're the only one insisting on calling them such here!


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Boxers and all white dogs were mentioned in the thread...


I never mentioned boxers. I didn't actually mention any breeds until my above post.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just an FYI I am not upset by anything in this thread or any one, few comments pissed me off, but my sarcasm in my first few posts made it clear which ones.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I never mentioned boxers. I didn't actually mention any breeds until my above post.


Did I say you mentioned them? Where has anyone direct comments at you?


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Labrador Laura said:


> It was alot better than what it is now , and I didn't say you had said they suffer it's other people comments I was talking about but I only replied to yours after more of less calling me a child who is throwing out her toys and now sensitive.
> 
> I'm not any those things I just a human being , I couldn't give one what people think of Zab I'm just saying some of the comments are not nice and can be hurtful. I don't want to be posting pictures and people thinking *'aww that poor dog, he must be really suffering and unable to breath *' when he's perfectly fine and a health happy dog.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure nooone is thinking that, most of your pics are of him leaping and flying through the air lol


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Do you know what, I don't think I've ever heard Rottweilers or Staffies to be referred to as ''devil dogs'' anywhere other than in the media.
> 
> You're the only one insisting on calling them such here!


You may not have done but they are called it often due to their association to the Omen films... That's where the lovely label came from.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Did I say you mentioned them? Where has anyone direct comments at you?


I never said it was directed at me. But you never said names so seemed it was directed at everyone.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have owned all white PRTs.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I never said it was directed at me. But you never said names so seemed it was directed at everyone.


What by saying they were mentioned? Sorry shall I go back through the posts and list who mentioned them so you don't think my post are directed at you?


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> What by saying they were mentioned? Sorry shall I go back through the posts and list who mentioned them so you don't think my post are directed at you?


No need to be so blunt. I was only saying i didnt mention boxers. Note to self to keep quiet next time.....


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> No need to be so blunt. I was only saying i didnt mention boxers. Note to self to keep quiet next time.....


And I was only saying I didn't say you were?


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Meezey said:


> You may not have done but they are called it often due to their association to the Omen films... That's where the lovely label came from.


I know where it came from, and I remember the Omen films came out and ''devil dog'' hatred was very rife. Probably still is, and I can quite imagine it gets very grating to deal with. But I have never heard it mentioned on here by anyone other than you. I thought it would be something you would want to let die a death, not keep hanging on and referring to.

I think we all need to agree to disagree. We are all here for one very common reason - and that's our love of dogs.

There are always going to be breeds that don't suit individual tastes - that's why it's so great we have such a selection to choose from - but I will bet my bottom dollar, that if tomorrow, there was a thread about a brachy dog seriously ill - there will be a wealth of support, just like when any other PF dog is ill. What has always struck me about PF is the way in which it rallies in time of need.

At the end of the day, we ALL love our dogs, and because of that, we can ALL appreciate the love and bond each other has with their dogs. That really is the bottom line.


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

Sweety said:


> I don't think of Boxers as a 'flat faced' Breed, so I am a little baffled as to why one member has decided to make the whole thread about herself.


If that is aimed at me which I'm sure it is, I made one comment out of 7 pages of comments how I made it all about myself I don't know. And I've only replied to others.

And I only commented because the Boxer was mentioned and again like I said before I don't agree with that comment ! So sorry if I made it all about me with one post !


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> And I was only saying I didn't say you were?


Thats fine. It was just coming across as a blunt tone.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SixStar said:


> I know where it came from, and I remember the Omen films came out and ''devil dog'' hatred was very rife. Probably still is, and I can quite imagine it gets very grating to deal with. But I have never heard it mentioned on here by anyone other than you. I thought it would be something you would want to let die a death, not keep hanging on and referring to.
> 
> I think we all need to agree to disagree. We are all here for one very common reason - and that's our love of dogs.
> 
> ...


So again, I have no issue with anything said in the thread, I addressed the issues I did have with posts.

My point was this happens every thread like this. And just because some people don't get upset or understand why people do, doesn't mean they should belittle those who do get upset, in every thread like this it happens.

Again it wasn't directed any any one individual, if I'd meant any one person I would have tagged them or quoted them.

Oh and it wasn't just Laura who got upset..


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So again, I have no issue with anything said in the thread, I addressed the issues I did have with posts.
> 
> My point was this happens every thread like this. And just because some people don't get upset or understand why people do, doesn't mean they should belittle those who do get upset, in every thread like this it happens.
> 
> ...


It's a mammoth thread, I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing. It was just @Labrador Laura who stood out to me as she was the only one I saw giving it the whole ''I'm not positing pictures again'', hence picking up on that post and commenting.

Such comments always make me cringe along with the inevitable plethora of ''aww no, don't do that'' etc that follow.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Thats fine. It was just coming across as a blunt tone.





Hanwombat said:


> Thats fine. It was just coming across as a blunt tone.


It's writing it has no tone. Joy of font.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh dear what a horrid thread this has become  

I'm sure nobody set out to hurt other peoples feelings but they have which is a shame. I don't really see the need to make negative comments about a dog's appearance, surely we all know that it will cause upset just if someone made a comment about your child or your Mum or your partner based on their appearance/hair colour or the length of their nose. Actually if someone made a comment about the length of my nose (not that it is a particularly long nose and not that I have any sensitivities about it) I would probably unchunch them. 

Perhaps we need some threads celebrating what is different about our dogs and what we all like about other people's dogs leaving comments like "but not for me" at the door.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SixStar said:


> It's a mammoth thread, I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing. It was just @Labrador Laura who stood out to me as she was the only one I saw giving it the whole ''I'm not positing pictures again''.


It is what it is... And lots of things were said, I can understand people getting upset, it will be groundhog day in a few weeks when another thread crops up..


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

SixStar said:


> It's a mammoth thread, I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing. It was just @Labrador Laura who stood out to me as she was the only one I saw giving it the whole ''I'm not positing pictures again''.


It's okay that's just me being childish and throwing my toys out the pram 

When really it was a little joke of stuff you I'll enjoy him myself . I only post pictures of the snapshot thread anyway as that's the only thread that seems to stay nice , people enjoying each other dogs and pictures.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Labrador Laura said:


> It's okay that's just me being childish and throwing my toys out the pram
> 
> When really it was a little joke of stuff you I'll enjoy him myself . I only post pictures of the snapshot thread anyway as that's the only thread that seems to stay nice , people enjoying each other dogs and pictures.


And enjoy him you should.

As should we ALL enjoy our OWN dogs!


----------



## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh dear what a horrid thread this has become
> 
> I'm sure nobody set out to hurt other peoples feelings but they have which is a shame. I don't really see the need to make negative comments about a dog's appearance, surely we all know that it will cause upset just if someone made a comment about your child or your Mum or your partner based on their appearance/hair colour or the length of their nose. Actually if someone made a comment about the length of my nose (not that it is a particularly long nose and not that I have any sensitivities about it) I would probably unchunch them.
> 
> Perhaps we need some threads celebrating what is different about our dogs and what we all like about other people's dogs leaving comments like "but not for me" at the door.


If we could still gives out reps I would be sending you one right now !

That's what the forums use to be like and would be great seeing that sort of stuff again.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> It's writing it has no tone. Joy of font.


Im only human :Bag


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Labrador Laura said:


> If we could still gives out reps I would be sending you one right now !
> 
> That's what the forums use to be like and would be great seeing that sort of stuff again.


Will have to start a thread later


----------



## StrawberryBlonde (May 27, 2015)

Oh dear, it was me who said I didn't like all white flat-faced breeds! Sorry if anyone feels offended, genuinely wasn't intended!


----------



## Guest (Feb 19, 2016)

Labrador Laura said:


> I've had people come up to me at agility competitions and tell me ' this is no place for a Boxer ' their to hyper and you can do nothing with them. If I was over sensitive I would of ran off crying holding my Boxer in my arms , No I went into that ring and got a clear run with him !
> I can't do that here , so I've just spoken up and don't agree with that has been said.


Try doing agility with a Westie!!! The only thing they're supposed to do is waddle around a show ring, apparently


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Well as you all know I am a Pug owner and I am a proud of my boy owner,he does have a lot of health issues because of bad breeding, but nothing any one on here has said has upset me as everyone is entitled to their own opinion, sometimes the way things are said could be a bit more diplomatic so I can understand to a point why some do get upset by certain comments but at the end of the day the only people who's opinion counts as to our own dogs is our own, what difference does it make what others think or say, they do not know or love our dogs as we dn that note I am out of this thread as I don't like the track it has turned onto


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Honest to Christ! Whatever has happened to this thread? I never once said anything disparaging about 'Flat Faced' breeds. I actually said that despite some of their recognised health issues I found them to be curious little creatures and although I would never choose to own one personally, I always found the ones that I have met to be happy and excited little souls.

I'll keep me thoughts to meself in future.:Shamefullyembarrased
Maybe have Oscar keep guard over them so that they never, ever get out into the light of day. :Muted


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Honest to Christ! Whatever has happened to this thread? I never once said anything disparaging about 'Flat Faced' breeds. I actually said that despite some of their recognised health issues I found them to be curious little creatures and although I would never choose to own one personally, I always found the ones that I have met to be happy and excited little souls.
> 
> I'll keep me thoughts to meself in future.:Shamefullyembarrased
> Maybe have Oscar keep guard over them so that they never, ever get out into the light of day. :Muted


Very wise.

If someone starts a thread, asking for your opinion, NEVER EVER give your opinion.

Do not allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security.

If Oscar is to become Guardian of your Thoughts, then he too must take a Vow of Silence.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Very wise.
> If someone starts a thread, asking for your opinion, NEVER EVER give your opinion.
> Do not allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security.
> *If Oscar is to become Guardian of your Thoughts, then he too must take a Vow of Silence*.


Not much hope of that I'm afraid. He's a gobby (little) bleeder and can bark for Finland when the mood takes him. I really need to get hold of a Decibel Meter just to ascertain how close he is to rupturing my ear drums when he kicks off. :Wacky


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Not much hope of that I'm afraid. He's a gobby (little) bleeder and can bark for Finland when the mood takes him. I really need to get hold of a Decibel Meter just to ascertain how close he is to rupturing my ear drums when he kicks off. :Wacky


Nasty business, perforated ear drums.

I speak from experience.

My younger Son is a 'passionate' Liverpool Supporter and I was unfortunate enough to be sitting next to him once when Liverpool missed a penalty in a crucial match.

I was deaf in that little ear for nine months. He wasn't repentant.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Nasty business, perforated ear drums.
> 
> I speak from experience.
> 
> ...


LMFAO! :Hilarious Whenever someone mentions Liverpool I'm always reminded of Robert Carlyle's powerful role in Cracker.

Here's one example;





'
Of course, it goes without saying, that, in reality, even the slightest whisper of Liverpool tends to invoke far more poignant thoughts for the 96.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Beauty as they say is in the eye of the beholder, and what one person finds attractive another person wont, that applies to a lot of things as well as dog breeds. Tastes always have and always will never be the same, probably would be a dull world if it was. Just because a brachycephalic breed isn't the breed for me, doesn't mean that other people don't find them attractive and decide that they are the breed for them and want one. Ive got friends with the same breeds and friends with totally different breeds, doesn't mean I don't like their dogs just because I wouldn't have the breed myself, or don't like spending time with them or don't find their personalities or ways endearing or entertaining..
Not everyone finds mine attractive and wants one of these either.

A portion of Bracycephalic breeds do have bracycephalic airway syndrome that is fact, but at the same time there are also good knowledgeable breeders who do their utmost to eradicate these and other known genetic and hereditary problems in the breed aswell and breed for better health. The French Bulldog club and what they are trying to do as regards health testing, and informing people who want one or own them and try to steer them towards good breeding and warning about bad breeding is an excellent example. I detest bad unethical, non health testing breeding whatever the breed or cross, not singling our Bracychephalic breeds or breeders in particular,
just the ones that don't breed for health and conformation or exaggerations whatever the breed is. No breed should be bred for a certain type or look if it means detriment to the dogs health and well being and enjoyment of life. Just the same I would never berate someone for having a brachycephalic breed who posted if they had breed health problems and wanted help or information. The main thing would be helping the owner and in turn the dog to overcome any health problems and get better.

Its understandable that people tend to get upset and defensive if their chosen breed gets criticised or they feel its being picked on. Ive got upset in the past defending my breeds and thrown my teddies right out of the pram, so do understand why some members have on this thread.


----------



## Guest (Feb 19, 2016)

Labrador Laura said:


> I never got the whole White boxers are unhealthy blah blah blah when I first introduced Zab 3years back.


*sigh*
I didn't say white boxers were unhealthy.
I encouraged the poster to get the puppy's hearing tested - BAER testing. Which is what is recommended by the BCA and I'm quite sure the relevant parent club in the UK as it is well known that white boxers can often be deaf either in one ear or both. 
My reasoning was that IF the puppy were deaf, better for everyone involved to know it sooner rather than later.

My other comment on that thread was that responsible boxer breeders should not be regularly producing white dogs. With the coat color testing available now there is no reason to produce a color that is known to be associated with sensory defects.

And no, before anyone goes jumping to conclusions about those who *own* white boxers (or danes, or pitbulls, or collies...) I am making no judgements on owners and their individual dogs. One of my favorite dogs in the world is a white deaf pitbull.

As for people slating breeds... No one cares unless it's their breed, otherwise it's "suck it up and grow a thick skin." Whatever. I have a giant breed who is apparently going to drop dead any minute, has no personality (yes, that has been said several times on this forum - giants are boring and have no personality), and I have a bull-breed mutt dog of unknown origin who since he was not raised with children is probably going to "turn" and eat them one day, especially since I'm also an irresponsible parent who leaves dogs and children unsupervised.

Seriously, forums are not the place to come to get your ego stroked


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I have a giant breed who has no personality (yes, that has been said several times on this forum - giants are boring and have no personality)


Phoebe has two GD friends that she plays with in the park. Both have incredible personalities. Especially the male, he's a flippin' hoot!


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Ive voted that they are cute.... In my opinion all dogs are cute

Now if you want to discuss if Its ethical thats a whole new thread


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> *sigh*
> I didn't say white boxers were unhealthy.
> I encouraged the poster to get the puppy's hearing tested - BAER testing. Which is what is recommended by the BCA and I'm quite sure the relevant parent club in the UK as it is well known that white boxers can often be deaf either in one ear or both.
> My reasoning was that IF the puppy were deaf, better for everyone involved to know it sooner rather than later.
> ...


We have a Jack Russell, who is, apparently, snappy and yappy and never to be trusted.

Also, oh no, a Staffy , who can 'turn' at any time and take out half the family.

I do not get people who become so defensive when someone says they would not choose to own the Breed they do.

I like Terriers and Pastoral Breeds. It doesn't mean I dislike the Toys, Gundogs, etc., they are just not what I would choose.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> As for people slating breeds... No one cares "suck it up and grow a thick skin."


Certain breeds will always attract their dissenters and this forum is not without those culprits. 
Now, I don't mind if folks have a grievance by personal experience of certain breeds at all, but what I do object to is when they openly adopt the careless mistakes made by the sparse few as the Gospel truth according to them, are blatantly dismissive of the positive experiences of the many and thoroughly disrespectful of those people who just so happen to have generations upon generations of experience with those certain breeds.

Nothing seems to be of concern to them other than to condemn the animals as dangerous and unpredictable. It is people such as this who strangle the life out of education and prevent people learning anything new.
Persevere and the accusations of promoting fly thick and fast.

I, personally, have never said I dislike any breed on this forum, in fact, I've made it quite clear that I have a rather soft spot for Babycham's Dillon. He's a Chinese Crested. I don't ever see myself owning such a dog simply because the breed would not suit my lifestyle, the environment I live in or the severe weather conditions I'm often subjected to.
Still there you go, and there go I to make an act of contrition.....Oh my God.....


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sweety said:


> We have a Jack Russell, who is, apparently, snappy and yappy and never to be trusted.
> 
> Also, oh no, a Staffy , who can 'turn' at any time and take out half the family.
> 
> ...


It's not about not choosing a certain breed, it becomes personal for people when those who dislike breeds start making disparaging comments about them.

I don't own a staff, a pit, terrier nor a toy but would still defend those breeds and would still understand if owners of those breeds got upset when people started making rude comments, fine getting a comment every once in a while but when 20 or 30 people who you may like and respect start making derogatory comments about your chose breed or type of dog slightly different. Again all very well saying they don't appeal to you or don't suit your life style but with some of the comments in the thread I can see why people get upset.

Rather like @ouesi getting annoyed at people assuming her chosen breed are all going to die young ( again in that thread people didn't understand how she could get annoyed) in this thread I am sure people got annoyed at being told in essence they were cruel, unethical and immoral for seemingly have crippled dogs who just lay their struggling for breath unable to do anything even in winter. Despite owners if said dogs explaining it wasn't the case in all dogs because that how people judged the breed as a whole on the few they met...

I care deeply and passionately about all dogs and my chosen breeds, so I can understand why people get upset.

Why should one person's emotional response be more valid or "correct" than another. I am in the mostly not bothered camp, but I would not stand by and watch someone try to pass off BS as gospel truth on a forum or face to face.

Just because most of the time I don't get upset doesn't mean that I should point fingers and tell others they shouldn't have the emotions they have in the same situation.

World would a pretty soulless place if people weren't allowed to get upset at things because others didn't


----------



## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm a bit late and have no idea why the thread got to 12 pages... but no I'm not a fan of flat faces. I'm not a fan of any kind of feature I see as extreme (flat faces, giant body, domed or elongated head etc). That's not to say I don't like individual dogs or their personalities (I fell for a pug we looked after for a few days!), just not their aesthetics.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I started this thread (with poll) to see if there was any statistical basis to the claim I keep hearing from journalists that people find flat-faced dogs cute. From this group, it's clearly a smallish minority that do. I don't like the way it's gone.
And I don't know how the stuff about boxers got blown out of all proportion. To start with, I don't know how anyone could look at a boxer and think it fell into a 'flat-faced' category. Short-nosed, yes - but that's not the same at all.


----------



## katysu (Aug 26, 2009)

http://www.tvchoicemagazine.co.uk/interviewextra/paul-ogrady-love-dogs
I love this photo of Paul O'Grady and Carmine.

In the past I would have been influenced by looks, and also size and reputation, not now. I would love to have a companion again. And guess it might be what comes to me rather than what I try for. Health important, but that's across all breeds, other than that I'm open. (well almost, say Zaros's dogs - beautiful and I would love to meet a Sarplaninac - presuming they are, but I couldn't own/be owned by one, I'm old & little).


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> I started this thread (with poll) to see if there was any statistical basis to the claim I keep hearing from journalists that people find flat-faced dogs cute. From this group, it's clearly a smallish minority that do. I don't like the way it's gone.
> And I don't know how the stuff about boxers got blown out of all proportion. To start with, I don't know how anyone could look at a boxer and think it fell into a 'flat-faced' category. Short-nosed, yes - but that's not the same at all.


Given the other threads asking peoples preferences of breed, it could only really have gone this way, hence my post on the first page


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Meezey said:


> You may not which is great. I own Rottweilers have done for decades, I could write a book on the abuse I have got and my dogs get, generally I don't care, I now own a Frenchies same,but as I am passionate about my dogs catch me on a wrong day slagging my devil dogs I will rip people new bum hole.... Other days I will shrug. I still though understand how it could upset people and empathise with those it does upset... But I stand by my comment it will happen in another thread and there will not be a shred of compassion from some. Not sure people have to understand it or even show empathy just understand everyone is different.
> 
> I personally find watching violence or suffering in films awful to watch even though I know it's not real it haunts me , others watch it without batting an eyelid... I cry at the drop of a hat in emotional charge situations, people might not understand it but I wouldn't expect others to belittle my emotions and neither would I belittle their seeming lack of emotions in those situations...


I get what you're saying but I just want to make it clear I wasn't intending to belittle anyone's feelings; it was meant as a kind gesture - a clumsy attempt at 'uck, here, don't let it bother you'.

As it happens I do understand people getting upset. I own a terrier and I fully anticipate many disparaging remarks should anyone be asked what they think of them. I even have to listen to it from my own husband. It *would* be water off a duck's back - I stand over that - but, thinking on, it's not really comparable to this. I'd imagine a terrier thread would be fairly balanced, between those who like and those who don't - this thread has been overwhelmingly unbalanced so can understand how it could be hard for some to read.

And that's before you get into the possible insinuations that you have supported unethical, unhealthy breeding. Even me, with my rhino hide, would find that tough to swallow.

So, yeah, I do - and I did - understand why people were upset and my response may, in hindsight, been insensitive but I did NOT intend to belittle anyone's feelings.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2016)

Meezey said:


> Rather like @ouesi getting annoyed at people assuming her chosen breed are all going to die young ( again in that thread people didn't understand how she could get annoyed)


Actually what got me more annoyed than the throwaway comments the thread was originally about, was that posters used that particular thread as a springboard to make more unkind comments not just about danes but other breeds as well.

All breeds pretty much have health concerns that conscientious breeders and breed enthusiasts work hard to try to better understand and thus eliminate. 
Being aware of the issues is not the same thing as saying "these dogs are train wrecks" which is essentially the way some posts come across.

Of course there are specific health issues associated with brachycephalic breeds that owners of these breeds should be aware of and breeders should work to reduce and eliminate - yes, even if that means producing less exaggerated dogs. 
Just as there are certain health issues associated with many breeds. This is why ethical breeding practices are so important and why it's so important for puppy buyers to demand more of their breeders. Health testing is not enough. Keeping up with the dogs they produce for the life of the dog means that breeders are aware of any health issues the puppy ends up developing (if any), and eventually know what the dog they produced died of and can use that information to better the health of the breed as a whole.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2016)

Thought not for nothing, I find it interesting that certain temperament issues are not viewed the same way as health issues.

Goldens are often held up as the epitome of sweet natured dogs, great family dogs etc. Yet no one wants to address the very real issue of some very OTT resource guarding that has cropped up in the breed that can make this “sweet” family dog incredibly dangerous. Same with spaniels.

From what we can tell, this excessive/obsessive RG is hereditary. For those who are actually bothering to look, there does seem to be a genetic predisposition. Again, *good* breeders keep track of their dogs after the sale and would know by keeping up with their puppy buyers if they are producing this fault and work to eliminate it from the breed. (And yes, it very much is a fault IMO.)

Temperament issues can be just as deadly as health issues....

And no, I don’t dislike goldens or spaniels as a breed, they’re awesome dogs, just using them as an example of how temperament issues seemingly don’t register the same way health issues do.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Thought not for nothing, I find it interesting that certain temperament issues are not viewed the same way as health issues.
> 
> Goldens are often held up as the epitome of sweet natured dogs, great family dogs etc. Yet no one wants to address the very real issue of some very OTT resource guarding that has cropped up in the breed that can make this "sweet" family dog incredibly dangerous. Same with spaniels.
> 
> ...


Is it Germany where dogs have to pass a temperament test before they can be bred from? I read an article about it a few years ago.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Is it Germany where dogs have to pass a temperament test before they can be bred from? I read an article about it a few years ago.


Most good breeders of Rottweilers in the UK also temperament tests by choice.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Im not a big fan of 'too smooshed' when it comes to noses but I think alot of brachy breeds are adorable...as long as they havent had their health put at risk in order to look like an extreme version of theirselves.
Some I dont like but others I do, for example Japanese Chin are on my dream dog list as I think they are very pretty and have cute personalities. Not sure Id ever own a smooshed dog though mainly coz I have a thing about noise and if they did that noisey breathing thing it would wind me right up!


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Penny is half pug and half yorkie. She runs rings round most dogs in the park. She doesn't have a full nose length of a yorkie but not flat like a pug either. Here is a side profile


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2016)

Burrowzig said:


> Is it Germany where dogs have to pass a temperament test before they can be bred from? I read an article about it a few years ago.


I wonder if something like weird, OTT resource guarding would show up on a temperament test?


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Doggiedelight said:


> Penny is half pug and half yorkie. She runs rings round most dogs in the park. She doesn't have a full nose length of a yorkie but not flat like a pug either. Here is a side profile
> 
> View attachment 262938


Out of curiosity, what made you choose that cross?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I wonder if something like weird, OTT resource guarding would show up on a temperament test?


You would think they would test each breed to issues they know within that breed wouldn't you?

I know for Rottweilers it's all about being sound round strange situation, strange dogs strange people strange objects etc..So no aggressions being shown and being calm confident and self assured as the breed should be, many do the breed club temp assessment and the BH...


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> Penny is half pug and half yorkie. She runs rings round most dogs in the park. She doesn't have a full nose length of a yorkie but not flat like a pug either. Here is a side profile
> 
> View attachment 262938


Penny is gorgeous!


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> You would think they would test each breed to issues they know within that breed wouldn't you?
> 
> I know for Rottweilers it's all about being sound round strange situation, strange dogs strange people strange objects etc..So no aggressions being shown and being calm confident and self assured as the breed should be, many do the breed club temp assessment and the BH...


Both my dogs had their stress thresholds assessed before they started their BH training.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2016)

Meezey said:


> You would think they would test each breed to issues they know within that breed wouldn't you?
> 
> I know for Rottweilers it's all about being sound round strange situation, strange dogs strange people strange objects etc..So no aggressions being shown and being calm confident and self assured as the breed should be, many do the breed club temp assessment and the BH...


You would think, but IDK.
Yes, those are the tests I'm familiar with, how does the dog react to strange, surprising stimuli, loud noises, different footing, how well does the dog recover, regular handling/grooming, behavior around other dogs... That sort of thing. I can see how resource guarding might not come up as it tends to be something that presents in the home around what the dog considers resources. So like a dog who has decided that all tissue boxes in the house are not his might test fine outside of the home. 
Granted dogs like this usually present with other anxiety issues that might show up on a temperament test.

A lot of folks still scoff at showing, but I've always said showing and/or competing is a good way to tell what kind of temperament you're dealing with. Show dogs have to be able to cope with a lot of strangers and new environments and handle them in a way where they are still able to perform - that says a lot about temperament IMO. I've always cringed a bit at the "oh she didn't like showing but we bred her anyway because she's such a good example of the breed" type attitude. If your dog can't handle the show ring, you're looking at a less than ideal temperament and should you really be breeding that?


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

SixStar said:


> Out of curiosity, what made you choose that cross?


Hi Sixstar, I didnt go looking for her, or even another dog. I saw her at someones house and fell instantly in love. My friend had the sibling. So my love was nothing to do with what cross she was. Im so glad i made the decision I did  it was an accidental litter, dad was 14 and owners didnt think he would have it in him. One and only litter


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Thought not for nothing, I find it interesting that certain temperament issues are not viewed the same way as health issues.
> 
> Goldens are often held up as the epitome of sweet natured dogs, great family dogs etc. Yet no one wants to address the very real issue of some very OTT resource guarding that has cropped up in the breed that can make this "sweet" family dog incredibly dangerous. Same with spaniels.
> 
> ...


Amen x100!! my mums very good friend got a Cocker puppy from a BYB just before Christmas and it's already resource guarding. I don't see it ending well as they very inexperienced (first time dog owners) and don't seem to register how serious this problem is.



Burrowzig said:


> Is it Germany where dogs have to pass a temperament test before they can be bred from? I read an article about it a few years ago.


GSD's do, not sure about other breeds. As well as other tests they must pass - endurance test, conformation assessment, must have at least the IPO1 title etc.


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I know that in Germany the Verein Deutsch Drahthaar test the natural aptitude of the dogs on all types of game as well as temperament testing before they can be bred from. IMO, Germany are going about breeding dogs the correct way.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I would actually love to see mandatory mentality tests on all dogs considered breed worthy. In Sweden the whole of Cash's litter have taken their MH but there is no equivalent here unfortunately, although I do remember there being some debate as to whether the temperament test Meezey speaks of above is similar which I think it does include similar aspects, but trying to find a club that holds regular temperament testing is like finding a needle in a haystack. But in general I do think it is far to easy to breed in this country with many dogs never having been assessed temperamentally and whilst showing gives you some insight into the dog, it's by no means an indicator of overall temperament in everyday situations.


----------

