# Dog on Dog Attacks



## aoifeturner (Sep 29, 2012)

Hey guys please take a minute to read this

Recently my little border terrier puppy got attacked by an american bulldog, he lived fortunatly but on contact to the police there was nothing to be done becauase it was dog on dog ...
To cut a long story short, the dog has now attacked two others and killed another dog and the dog wardens are only starting to take action, and the police are still not interested.

I have set up a petition and 100,000 signatures and it will be discussed within parliament, this issue is so close to being passed anyway, with support of the public we can ensure it is! please sign this it takes two seconds!

Make Dogs Attacking other dogs ILLEGAL - e-petitions

Thank you so much if you do !!
Please share this link on your facebooks and twitters etc..!

Aoife xxxx


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## Rah (Sep 26, 2012)

I always thought the owner could get into trouble for not controlling their dog?!

I also will be glad to see the day when it is compulsory to have your dog micro-chipped  

SJ x


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## aoifeturner (Sep 29, 2012)

Rah said:


> I always thought the owner could get into trouble for not controlling their dog?!
> 
> I also will be glad to see the day when it is compulsory to have your dog micro-chipped
> 
> SJ x


Nope literally no action gets taken! Dog on Dog attacks are not illegal! after seeing my little puppy getting thrown around like a rag dog im going to try my best to stop it happening again by gaining support on my petition!


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Have a read of this:

Owner jailed after attack in street (From The Bolton News)

Seems to depend on where you live as to whether or not a prosecution takes place.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

> Legislation should be brought in so they are assessed after attacking and destroyed if necessary to prevent further harm to other animals.


How do you define an attack? 
How do you define a violent dog?
Does the behavior of the dog who was attacked matter?

Was at the vets a while back and a tiny dog jumped out of his basket (not even leashed) and launched himself at my dane, jumped up on his shoulder and proceeded to bark in my dogs face. I had no where to go, and the owner was too busy remarking how cute her dog was thinking hes a little napoleon to collect him promptly.

Had my dog roared at the little dog and given him a lesson in polite greetings would he be labeled as violent? 
Would the little dog who attacked mine be brought in and assessed after attacking and possibly destroyed if necessary?

Just wondering.


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## jayne5364 (Oct 21, 2009)

ouesi said:


> How do you define an attack?
> How do you define a violent dog?
> Does the behavior of the dog who was attacked matter?
> 
> ...


Some very valid points here. I agree that the behaviour of all dogs involved needs to be looked at and whether any provocation took place, like in the case great dane and the little "cute" snapper. It's a fine line but needs something done.
Rosie's litter sister was attacked last week age 14 weeks by a huge DDB, totally unprovoked. She has survived but severely traumatised as I'm sure the OP and her puppy will understand. 
I will be signing the petition, something has to be done. (the DDB had attacked before, several times and still nothing is done)


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear your dog and others have been attacked by this dog and my condolences to those who lost their beloved pet.

Despite the fact my dog was attacked and injured in a dog on dog attack http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/...er-course-antibiotics-just-medical-damage.jpg

I won't be signing for a number of reasons

a) I don't think making it a criminal offence would actually make any difference.

b) As has been said, what constitutes an attack i've seen many people claim their dog has been attacked when ,in fact, their rude dog has been corrected and is completely uninjured. Do we really want police time wasted for incidents like this?

c) Working with the Dog warden/designated EHO to pursue a dog control order and reporting if isn't be adhered to, is more likely to protect other dogs than a criminal record for the owner.

Once again sorry for the heartache you have been through truly I do understand, I've worked for 2 years to restore my dog's previous confidence I don't belive thie would be a step in the right direction, better owner education about body language, predatory drift and potential conflict triggers would be a wonderful way to prevent incidents.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

I have corrected Ang2 on that case she linked to before, (that owner was convicted for an out of control dog under DDA 1991 (he did not know its whereabouts since the attack), not for the dog on dog attack, so will not say any more connected to that. 

Dog on dog attacks are covered by law. No matter where you live, it has been an offence since 1871 for a dog to attack another dog. 

However the offence is a civil case and not a criminal case. (Dogs Act 1871)

A civil prosecution can be brought by the police, the local authority or any member of the public. This is done in the form of a compliant being filed beforehand.

A civil offence differs greatly from a criminal dog offence (i.e under DDA 1991) as in, the owner can not be fined, or imprisoned. However the owner can be fined or imprisoned if teh court orders are not carried out. As this then becomes a criminal offence.

The punishment under Dogs Act 1871 are exactly the same for the dog as they are under DDA 1991. This also includes destruction.

Another difference is, the emphasis under DA1871 is to prove the dog is dangerous, unlike DDA1991 s.3 where the emphasis is to proof it was dangerously out of control at the time.

The reason the dog warden is now taking it more seriously (I take it none of the owners took civil action), is when it reaches a count of 3 reports about a dog they have to take it more seriously.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

So sorry to hear of the problems you have faced.

Unfortunately I will not be signing. 

What is counted as being an attack? Actual physical harm, a bark, a growl. Sounds daft I know but I have heard of dogs being "attacked" when it turns out all that occurred was one dog growling at another. What happens when the injured dog is the attacker? How many independent witnesses are required? Would you take all involved away to be "judged". Who would judge and how quickly could it be done. You'd need specialists assessors and how would this be paid for?

Doesn't the dangerous dogs act prohibit dangerously out of control dogs, not just against against humans? Wouldn't better guidelines/procedures be better than adding additional legislation which would only serve to penalize/kill potentially innocent dogs?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I am sorry to hear about what happened to your pup and hope he is recovering well.

I also will not be signing due to the potential pitfalls highlighted by others. Such legislation could be misused potentially by some people to threaten others or by those bearing a grudge in aditon to the other points made I feel. A while ago a small bichon ran over to my dog and repeatedly growled and snapped until he made contact and drew blood - mine responded with an awful lot of noise and teeth - but no contact was made. Anyone watching could have assumed that my dog had 'gone' for the bichon and indeed a rumour circulated that he had done so without provocation from someone who had been in the vague area but not witnessed the whole event. NOT the owner of the bichon I hasten to add who apologised to me.

ETA: where do you draw the line too as to what is 'warranted' and what is not? What if someone's friendly dog is being a real pain towards another dog who is not interested in playing and ignores all warnings. Or friendly dog bounces on elderly dog with painful arthritis. Owners stand by blissfully unaware until fed up dog takes matters into his own hands. This then becomes an 'unprovoked' attack in the eyes of the humans and attacking dog is destroyed.

Currently a man I know is attempting to track down the owner of a dog who ran past his daughter to his owner when recalled in a designated offlead dog walking area whilst growling so that he can take action against them. I am pretty sure that I know this dog from his description and he growls when running an awful lot. No contact was made with the child nor an approach as he ran past apparently - but the growl has been interpreted by the man as an attack. These things are far too open to interpretation.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I will be signing the petition. There is NEVER a good reason for a dog attacking another dog to the point of it needing emergency vet treatment.....just excuses for aggressive dogs.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> I will be signing the petition. There is NEVER a good reason for a dog attacking another dog to the point of it needing emergency vet treatment.....just excuses for aggressive dogs.


But things just aren't that clear cut. The petition doesn't define an attack as being to the point of needing emergency vet treatment. It doesn't define what constitutes one at all. It just talks about violent dogs. What is a violent dog? What if a chi, yorkie or bichon really ripped into my dog? He most likely would need patching up but would be very unlucky to be rendered critically injured - just one bite from mine in retaliation could cause some serious damage to a tiny dog. In which case which dog is to blame? Which is to be destroyed?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Dogless said:


> But things just aren't that clear cut. The petition doesn't define an attack as being to the point of needing emergency vet treatment. It doesn't define what constitutes one at all. It just talks about violent dogs. What is a violent dog? What if a chi, yorkie or bichon really ripped into my dog? He most likely would need patching up but would be very unlucky to be rendered critically injured - just one bite from mine in retaliation could cause some serious damage to a tiny dog. In which case which dog is to blame? Which is to be destroyed?


Any dog that inflicts enough damage on another dog so as it needs emergency vet treatment is a danger to another dog....therefore action needs to be taken imo.

Owners of toy breeds are sick of having their dogs attacked and no action being taken.


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## Dizzy Grace (May 2, 2012)

chichi said:


> Any dog that inflicts enough damage on another dog so as it needs emergency vet treatment is a danger to another dog....therefore action needs to be taken imo.
> 
> Owners of toy breeds are sick of having their dogs attacked and no action being taken.


Interesting, a small dog that is aggressive and out of control is allowed to do what it likes to any other dog, because it is physically incapable of doing any serious damage to a big dog.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> Any dog that inflicts enough damage on another dog so as it needs emergency vet treatment is a danger to another dog....therefore action needs to be taken imo.
> 
> *Owners of toy breeds are sick of having their dogs attacked and no action being taken*.


I am sick of toy breeds taking lumps out of my dog too.

My point is, is that the tiny breed who very sweetly took a lump out of my dog's nose and then one out of his chest whilst he screamed didn't cause enough damage to warrant more than keeping an eye on the wounds and bathing them until healed. Had my dog used exactly the same level of force as the tiny breed had then the tiny breed may well be no more. Had he decided to use an equal level of force then your logic dictates that action would need taking against him?

What about the man who owned the pom the other night who was exhibiting massively aggressive behaviour. I was told that he just 'thought he was a big dog' which I hear a lot. Kilo reacted and barked and the man muttered about having such a dog unmuzzled in public. Just because his dog was small the barking and lunging was 'one of those things' whereas a 48kg dog barking was dangerous.

Where does this stop? Only breeds of a certain size being legal to own as any dog bigger than say 5kg may do some serious damage?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> Owners of toy breeds are sick of having their dogs attacked and no action being taken.


Wait... are you saying toy breeds arent responsible for any attacks?
Because I can assure you that is wholly inaccurate.



> There is NEVER a good reason for a dog attacking another dog to the point of it needing emergency vet treatment.....just excuses for aggressive dogs.


Hrm... so if, say, a cocker spaniel goes off and starts snarling and snapping at one of my children, and my great dane responds in defense of the child, Im just making excuses for an aggressive dog?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> Any dog that inflicts enough damage on another dog so as it needs emergency vet treatment is a danger to another dog....therefore action needs to be taken imo.
> 
> Owners of toy breeds are sick of having their dogs attacked and no action being taken.


I want your honest opinion on this scenario...

4 toy dogs charges up to my small end of medium dog ( 15inches to withers) she is onlead. 3 stand around barking at her, the 4th one is lunging and snapping at her leaving saliva on her coat....my dog yelps when this dog clearly bites harder.... the owner does nothing to control or recall . blocking and retreating from 4 is impossible as they surround and continue. Had my dog retaliated in this situation ... who is responsible? ( this did happen about a year ago)

The only thing that will prevent "attacks" is responsible knowledgable ownership by owners of dogs of all sizes.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Dizzy Grace said:


> Interesting, a small dog that is aggressive and out of control is allowed to do what it likes to any other dog, because it is physically incapable of doing any serious damage to a big dog.


So if a small dog yaps at a large dog.....its okay for the large dog to all but kill it. No.

A large dog can see off a small breed without almost killing it.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> Owners of toy breeds are sick of having their dogs attacked and no action being taken.


It's unfortunate to single out toy breeds. Al three of my dogs were attacked over the summer by equivalent sized dogs. Mine are springers.



Dizzy Grace said:


> Interesting, a small dog that is aggressive and out of control is allowed to do what it likes to any other dog, because it is physically incapable of doing any serious damage to a big dog.


This seems true: the owner of the jrt that attacked Bear last week blamed Bear then today when it went for a bichon, she said its because he was bitten two years ago. Stop making excuses and get your dog better trained! Mine's costing hundreds with trainers, because I want a sociable dog that people don't avoid!

Having spoken to the bichon owner who witnessed an attack this week, my OH (police officer) confirms that it is a prosecutable offence to have an out of control dog and if it attacks your dog, the owner can be charged, as I think Attack Mode already pointed out. You need to persist and insist that action is taken. If possible, take photos of the offending dog and any injuries caused.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Ive had to refrain today from posting on a thread where the owner of a rescue is letting it off lead...knowing the dog is dog aggressive. If that was a toy breed that was dog aggressive I doubt it would be let off lead for fear of it being hurt by a larger breed but..as it is..the dog is unlikely to get hurt itself but the safety of other small dogs in the area is being put at risk. Irresponsible owners are the problem here so someone needs to make them accountable for their lack of thought for other dogs.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> So if a small dog yaps at a large dog.....its okay for the large dog to all but kill it. No.
> 
> A large dog can see off a small breed without almost killing it.


But why on earth are they allowing their small vulnerable dog threaten and harass a larger dog? Surely as dog owners we need to be in control of our dogs regardless of size?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sorry has the owner of a DA dog I refuse to sign it. I do what I can to keep my dog under control, why should my dog have to be pestred and jumped on by,"Oh he only wants to be friends" well my dog doesn't want to be friends, she just wants to be left alone. 

My dog has also been attacked and I definitely think more needs to be done about dogs out of control.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> Ive had to refrain today from posting on a thread where the owner of a rescue is letting it off lead...knowing the dog is dog aggressive. If that was a toy breed that was dog aggressive I doubt it would be let off lead for fear of it being hurt by a larger breed but..as it is..the dog is unlikely to get hurt itself but the safety of other small dogs in the area is being put at risk. Irresponsible owners are the problem here so someone needs to make them accountable for their lack of thought for other dogs.


I agree that the safety of other dogs and the dog in question is at risk on that thread. No one, no matter what size dog they own, agreed that letting it off was a good idea. The unanimous answer was that a long line and behaviourist was needed which was, luckily, taken on board.

I think that we are, in the main, responsible owners on here which is where some problems arise. Around here you'd be very surprised at the amount of toy dogs let off lead who do go around attacking other dogs as their owners laugh at their 'feistiness' . Complete lack of thought for their own and indeed any dogs. We get regularly chased down the road by a chi intent on murder - I am afraid the chi and my boot are fairly well acquainted now.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Of course no dog should be threatening any other dog regardless of size. However....my dogs have been attacked...completely unprovoked...more than once!

Cant quote on this silly phone but Cinnamontoast....I agree that its awful that your dogs were attacked too...my point about toys being attacked is that usually they pay with their lives because of their small size.

On this other thread I spoke of...people were advising a muzzle.....sorry but a known DA Staffie muzzled could still severely hurt a little dog like mine. A short lead and muzzle maybe.....


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> So if a small dog yaps at a large dog.....its okay for the large dog to all but kill it. No.
> 
> A large dog can see off a small breed without almost killing it.


Again, define attack. Define unprovoked. Define aggressive. Define injury.

Some toy breeds are just incredibly delicate and can be seriously injured even if the dogs response is not OTT. 
Iggies are notorious for breaking legs jumping off sofas. Lets ban all sofas over a certain height no?
Mini doxies are notorious for back injuries. 
YOU could kill your toy breed tripping over him in the middle of the night half asleep on your way to the bathroom.

I dont allow my dogs to even sniff noses with dogs I dont know, why the heck are toy breed owners letting their dogs yap and lunge at other dogs? And why should my dog be PTS because of a perfectly normal reaction to another dog attacking him?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> Of course no dog should be threatening any other dog regardless of size. However....my dogs have been attacked...completely unprovoked...more than once!


My dog has been attacked by a large dog, and terrfied so badly by a gang of toy dogs that she was terrfied to even get out of the car to go for a walk the following day.

Damage comes in many guises do not think for one moment a small mouth means less damage.

In a world where I can't get the police to come out when there is a man sitting in my car holding a knife, I would be rather agrieved to find that they were tied up taking statements from the owners of dogs that have had a bit of handbags.

I'm not commenting on the other thread as I haven't read it.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I definitely think that dog on dog attacks should be investigated. No law is perfect and it will go wrong sometimes but it has to be better that it is an offence for a dog to attack another dog rather than let these horrible dogs with horrible owners go round inflicting damage on the dog and heart ache on the owner. There is a huge difference between a scrap between two dogs and an unprovoked attack by a violent dog. In the same way that there is a difference between two drunken blokes having a fight and one ending up in hospital and a vicious mugging or unprovoked knifing. They might all end up in court but the punishment will be different.

As I have said before I seldom walk my dogs in public but I have had 2 incidents with one of mine. One was totally her fault and even if she had been killed I would not have blamed the owner of the other dog as she had disobeyed me and moved into the other dog's space. The other did not result in any damage but had it done so I would have pursued it as the owner was totally uncaring and allowed his rather nasty dog to approach my dog even when I asked him not to.

Surely you would have to trust that the true situation would be looked at in court. Otherwise why have any laws at all just in case of wrongful conviction - which I know full well does happen far too often.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

nope..won't be signing here either

My bullie has been 'attacked ' many a time by small dogs...most of the owners think its funny...can't imagine them thinking it funny if it was the other way round or if she retaliated. if she was to retaliate..she could kill it easily.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act Information - New dog law passed in Scotland

Have a look at this and you will see that in Scotland the old Dogs Act has been repealed and that it is an offence for a dog to put another animal at risk. 
So when this also becomes law in England and Wales it will be covered all over the UK.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act Information - New dog law passed in Scotland
> 
> Have a look at this and you will see that in Scotland the old Dogs Act has been repealed and that it is an offence for a dog to put another animal at risk.
> So when this also becomes law in England and Wales it will be covered all over the UK.


It is also a criminal offence in N.I under Dogs (Amendment) Act (Northern-Ireland) 2011.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> On this other thread I spoke of...people were advising a muzzle.....sorry but a known DA Staffie muzzled could still severely hurt a little dog like mine. A short lead and muzzle maybe.....


This is the factor.. DA dogs should be on lead around other dogs, point blank and people should be aware that dogs on a lead may be on a lead for a reason. This goes for a DA chihuahua as well as a DA staffie. Speaking of which I've never seen a muzzled chihuahua or other small dogs despite several seeing quite a few which are DA. Have you?



Blitz said:


> Surely you would have to trust that the true situation would be looked at in court. Otherwise why have any laws at all just in case of wrongful conviction - which I know full well does happen far too often.


Wrongful conviction in criminal cases no longer lead to death penalty for that reason. And no, I do not trust court cases to be judged purely on evidence, especially when talking about dogs and dog behaviour where everyone thinks they know it all. We all have prejudices which would come into play. Are you really saying that a Biker with a staffie wouldn't be prejudiced against when compared to an old lady with a Maltese?

There are laws in place, it's enforcement and knowledge of those laws which need to be investigated not additional laws.


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## Rah (Sep 26, 2012)

Do not think for a moment that a toy breed cannot be the offending/violent dog. 

Any dog can. Any dog can be aggressive depending on the situation it is put in.

I had always thought that owners could be prosecuted for letting their dog be out of control. I'll have to do some research on this.

George is a playful dog. I have many elderly neighbours with elderly or shy dogs. If I see that there is a dog that I do not know, or a dog that is not keen on other dogs, George is kept on lead - simply because we are working on recall and I know that he's that excited he will not listen.

Not only is that polite of an owner to keep it on lead around strange or nervy dogs, it is also my responsibility for the protection of my own dog.

IMO it's not that it is the dogs fault that animals become harmed/killed. It is that of whose hands it is in.

If your dog goes running to a dog that is on a lead, that is clearly quite upset around other dogs, and your dog does not recall and gets injured before you get to it, that is your own fault.

Assess the field, before you let your pooch off.

SJ x


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I have never seen a DA Chihuahua. Ive seen yappy ones but muzzling isnt necessary for barking or half the dogs in the Country would be muzzled when out.

It always makes me die on these threads when people bring up DA Chis.....sure they would be a nuisance...maybe even give a nasty bite but I very much doubt your average Chi is going to kill or seriously hurt any dog larger than themselves.....even if they tried. Chis...by and large. ...are mouthy if anything. The majority have enough sense not to get physical with a larger dog. For the record 99 per cent of the time my lot are on lead when out....because of irresponsible owners of other dogs.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> I have never seen a DA Chihuahua.


:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:
Attempt to respond to the rest of the post failed. 
System overload at the shock of the above statement.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Wrongful conviction in criminal cases no longer lead to death penalty for that reason. And no, I do not trust court cases to be judged purely on evidence, especially when talking about dogs and dog behaviour where everyone thinks they know it all. We all have prejudices which would come into play. Are you really saying that a Biker with a staffie wouldn't be prejudiced against when compared to an old lady with a Maltese?
> 
> There are laws in place, it's enforcement and knowledge of those laws which need to be investigated not additional laws.


wrongful conviction may no longer lead to the death penalty - which it only did in very rare cases - but it can and does totally ruin many people's lives.

If you read the new law it is highly unlikely to result in the death penalty or even removal of a dog either. There will be many limitations put on the dog before it comes to that.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> I have never seen a DA Chihuahua. Ive seen yappy ones but muzzling isnt necessary for barking or half the dogs in the Country would be muzzled when out.
> 
> It always makes me die on these threads when people bring up DA Chis.....sure they would be a nuisance...maybe even give a nasty bite but I very much doubt your average Chi is going to kill or seriously hurt any dog larger than themselves.....even if they tried. Chis...by and large. ...are mouthy if anything. The majority have enough sense not to get physical with a larger dog. For the record 99 per cent of the time my lot are on lead when out....because of irresponsible owners of other dogs.


IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE FOR A DOG OF ANY SIZE TO GO BARKING IN THE FACE OF ANOTHER.

It's owners of small dogs that do this cause other dogs to become fear agressive toward them. Everyone needs to control their dog bigger dogs will be your issue because your dogs are small. if you have a giant breed dogs it'll be smaller dogs that are going to be the issue because you at the other end of the see saw. I have a medium dog and have had problems with big dogs and small ones. It's logical really.

PS the dog that made my dog yelp was a chi.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> I have never seen a DA Chihuahua. Ive seen yappy ones but muzzling isnt necessary for barking or half the dogs in the Country would be muzzled when out.
> 
> It always makes me die on these threads when people bring up DA Chis.....sure they would be a nuisance...maybe even give a nasty bite but I very much doubt your average Chi is going to kill or seriously hurt any dog larger than themselves.....even if they tried. Chis...by and large. ...are mouthy if anything. The majority have enough sense not to get physical with a larger dog. For the record 99 per cent of the time my lot are on lead when out....because of irresponsible owners of other dogs.


We are not talking about yappy dogs but aggressive ones although a barking large dog is normally counted as aggressive whereas a barking small dog is often looked at as being cute. Your statement amounts to small dogs get a free ride as you "doubt your average Chi is going to kill or seriously hurt any dog larger than themselves.....even if they tried". Unacceptable.

Do you realize what mental damage dogs have when attacked even by small ones who do not cause injury? Most DA dogs are dogs which have themselves been attacked in the past including large dogs attacked by much smaller dogs. *ALL* dogs are dogs first and foremost. Size or potential damage should never be an excuse for poor behaviour of dog, or owner.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> :yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:
> Attempt to respond to the rest of the post failed.
> System overload at the shock of the above statement.


Why not get a petitiion to get Chis put on the Dangerous Dogs list pmsl


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Blitz said:


> If you read the new law it is highly unlikely to result in the death penalty or even removal of a dog either. There will be many limitations put on the dog before it comes to that.


Look at the petition.



> Legislation should be brought in so they are assessed after attacking and destroyed if necessary to prevent further harm to other animals.


I could support the introduction of the law you posted but that isn't the topic in question.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> Why not get a petitiion to get Chis put on the Dangerous Dogs list pmsl


Because I believe in taking personal responsibility for myself, my behavior, and my dogs behavior and not signing random internet petitions tying to get the rest of the world to adjust to me and my needs.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I have a 7 pound yorkie and I think it is my job to protect her so I'd never allow her to bother another dog. She is allowed to greet with permission and goes to doggy day care to socialise.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I cant quote but who said that yappy toy dogs are all well and good? These threads are always the same.....when a Chi rags your lab....gsd.....stafffie...mal...husky and leaves it for dead....then we will talk about Chis being by and large dangerous....until then I just think your making excuses for da dogs....

Bring in the legislation and let the courts decide who is at fault and who isnt. Might make some of those irresponsible owners that let their DA aggressive dogs offlead think twice.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Because I believe in taking personal responsibility for myself, my behavior, and my dogs behavior and not signing random internet petitions tying to get the rest of the world to adjust to me and my needs.


Oh so Chis are not dangerous dogs then....didnt think so and how is it getting others to adjust to your needs when owners are having their dogs attacked....killed in some cases...by offlead DA dogs. Please
.....its all good making bold comments but they should make sense to have effect.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> I cant quote but who said that yappy toy dogs are all well and good? These threads are always the same.....when a Chi rags your lab....gsd.....stafffie...mal...husky and leaves it for dead....then we will talk about Chis being by and large dangerous....until then I just think your making excuses for da dogs....
> 
> Bring in the legislation and let the courts decide who is at fault and who isnt. Might make some of those irresponsible owners that let their DA aggressive dogs offlead think twice.


The legislation is in place. And has already ordered the destruction of aggressive dogs of all breeds, Chi's included.

Chi's are capable of killing any size dog if any of those 42 teeth connect with the right location.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> I have a 7 pound yorkie and I think it is my job to protect her so I'd never allow her to bother another dog. She is allowed to greet with permission and goes to doggy day care to socialise.


Did the OPs dog bother another dog then. I didnt read that.....my dogs dont bother other dogs. They are mostly on lead...still had a few nasty dogs try to bite them for no reason other than they are DA.....I shouldnt have to protect my dogs....the owners of DA digs should be taking responsibility for their dogs unacceptable behaviour.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Look at the petition.
> I could support the introduction of the law you posted but that isn't the topic in question.


whoops, I did not even look at the petition. It is pointless anyway as a law similar to the Scottish law is likely to come in to force in England anyway.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> I shouldnt have to protect my dogs


That pretty much says it all...

Sorry, but if you truly believe this, you have no business being responsible for any dependent creature.

And yes, Chi's can be just as dangerous as any other dog.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> The legislation is in place. And has already ordered the destruction of aggressive dogs of all breeds, Chi's included.
> 
> Chi's are capable of killing any size dog if any of those 42 teeth connect with the right location.


What would you rather face...a p!ssed off Chi or a p!ssed Off Staffie.

And I agree that ANY owner of a dog that attacks another to the point of the other dog needing emergency vet treatment should have the courts to answer to....... Ive never said toy dogs shouldnt be included but we all know that if owners start getting prosecuted for their dogs aggressive behaviour...a much smaller portion of those prosecuted would be owners of toy breeds because the damage they could do would be limited...thats just common sense.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> until then I just think your making excuses for da dogs....


Do you understand anything about dogs or dog behaviour? A chi is a dog, a staffie is a dog, a great dane is a dog. They all follow the same rules when it comes to body language and react accordingly. You cannot make differences between the two and excuse behaviour based on size.

Your reasoning is the reason why I will not support this petition as it is, unfortunately a common view which harms great numbers of dogs in the long run.



> And I agree that ANY owner of a dog that attacks another to the point of the other dog needing emergency vet treatment should have the courts to answer to......


What about behavioural training possibly required even if no physical damage is done? Has just as much impact and more long term in all likelihood. I would guess you have never learned to restrict what you may be able to do with your dogs due to psychological damage caused by an attack and what it means for quality of life for dog and owner. If you did you wouldn't be so dismissive of small dogs.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> That pretty much says it all...
> 
> Sorry, but if you truly believe this, you have no business being responsible for any dependent creature.
> 
> And yes, Chis can be just as dangerous as any other dog.


Ludicrous...a Chi ciuld be as dangerous as a Pitbull......cant even be bothered to go there:mad2:


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> *What would you rather face...a p!ssed off Chi or a p!ssed Off Staffie. *
> 
> And I agree that ANY owner of a dog that attacks another to the point of the other dog needing emergency vet treatment should have the courts to answer to....... Ive never said toy dogs shouldnt be included but we all know that if owners start getting prosecuted for their dogs aggressive behaviour...a much smaller portion of those prosecuted would be owners of toy breeds because the damage they could do would be limited...thats just common sense.


Neither because they both have 42 teeth that can cause injury or death.

It is foolish to think one is safer than the other. People have been seriously injured by small dogs, and people have been seriously injured by large dogs. People have been killed by large dogs, and people have been killed by small dogs.


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

> Bring in the legislation and let the courts decide who is at fault and who isnt. Might make some of those irresponsible owners that let their DA aggressive dogs offlead think twice.


But it doesn't and it won't. No court is going to send an owner to jail over a dog on dog attack unless it was deliberate. Even then they might not; owners are not always jailed for dog on human attacks.

The dog deemed to be the aggressor will be PTS, the owner fined and possibly banned from keeping dogs for a year or two. The owner will then buy another dog (do these bans actually work in practice?) and it happens all over again.

These laws will only have an effect if the owner is the one punished most severely, not the dog. Frankly, I don't see this happening as a result of this petition or foreseeable changes to the law. It will take a major change in our society's view on dogs and won't happen quickly or without an unpleasant stimulus, which may well affect all of us (regardless of dog size) badly.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Do you understand anything about dogs or dog behaviour? A chi is a dog, a staffie is a dog, a great dane is a dog. They all follow the same rules when it comes to body language and react accordingly. You cannot make differences between the two and excuse behaviour based on size.
> 
> Your reasoning is the reason why I will not support this petition as it is, unfortunately a common view which harms great numbers of dogs in the long run.


I understand dogs. I also understand that you are spouting off without actually taking on board what Im saying. I will not repeat again but suffice to say that your reasoning is precisely why the law needs to step up.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

If a dog winds another dog up no matter what breed, it's the owners fault for allowing it to happen.

Chi's can do quite a bit of damage. My friend's last chi bit the postman's finger and pulled the flesh off right down to the bone as he wouldn't let go when the postman pushed the letters through the letterbox and the dog latched on. 

I've had a small jack russel come up barking and biting my alaskan malamute, oddly it was cute to the owners till my dog had enough and turned. She never touched the dog because I pulled her away but she dived for it. If I hadn't have been in such control she could have killed that dog or done serious harm, it wasn't her fault she was just defending herself.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Neither because they both have 42 teeth that can cause injury or death.
> 
> It is foolish to think one is safer than the other. People have been seriously injured by small dogs, and people have been seriously injured by large dogs. People have been killed by large dogs, and people have been killed by small dogs.


No offence AM but you and I both know you are talking a complete load of bull here.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> Ludicrous...a Chi ciuld be as dangerous as a Pitbull......cant even be bothered to go there:mad2:


I can assure you, my well trained, well socialized, solid temperament 140 pound female great dane is far less dangerous than ANY untrained, unsocialized toy breed out there. If a dog reacts to her (my dane) her first reaction is always to check in with her handler. Its NOT to react back. 
Meanwhile the toy breed lunging on the end of the flexi trying to get at my dane could very easily wrap the leash around someones leg and trip them up, could very easily redirect on to a child standing nearby, could very easily get loose and cause general chaos and mayhem.

Let me ask you something.
Do you feel pedestrians have any responsibility to be aware of drivers in their cars? 
Do you feel pedestrians have a responsibility to look both ways, watch out for turning vehicles at crosswalks, that sort of thing?
Or is it only the drivers responsibility to watch out for pedestrians?
Because its the same idea.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> No offence AM but you and I both know you are talking a complete load of bull here.


Tell that to my client 4-5 weeks ago whose Chi was PTS due to being labelled "dangerous".

I can go off and find you stories about children killed by small dogs. If that is the bit you are suggesting is a load of bull.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> I understand dogs. I also understand that you are spouting off without actually taking on board what Im saying. I will not repeat again but suffice to say that your reasoning is precisely why the law needs to step up.


Effectively you are saying, small dogs don't do harm so punish larger dogs even if the small dog starts it. I don't think you'll find many responsible dog owners who would agree with that.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Tell that to my client 4-5 weeks ago whose Chi was PTS due to being labelled "dangerous".
> 
> I can go off and find you stories about children killed by small dogs. If that is the bit you are suggesting is a load of bull.


Well you are always great with stories and statistics AM 

The load of bull was aimed at you being EQUALLY unhappy about facing an aggressive Chi as an aggressive Staffie.....we both know thats stretching it a little. ....putting it mildly.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Effectively you are saying, small dogs don't do harm so punish larger dogs even if the small dog starts it. I don't think you'll find many responsible dog owners who would agree with that.


Oh dear lord......I am talking about the dangers of da dogs to other dogs....regardless of size but it goes without saying that a large breed could do more damage....by and large....than a 4lb dog.....its not rocket science really is it :mad2:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Well you are always great with stories and statistics AM
> 
> The load of bull was aimed at you being EQUALLY unhappy about facing an aggressive Chi as an aggressive Staffie.....we both know thats stretching it a little. ....putting it mildly.


I'd rather face whichever dog had the more responsible owner... and round here it would probably not be the chi.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Well you are always great with stories and statistics AM
> 
> The load of bull was aimed at you being EQUALLY unhappy about facing an aggressive Chi as an aggressive Staffie.....we both know thats stretching it a little. ....putting it mildly.


No it's not. You do not even know me, so in no way can you pre-judge how I would act with any aggressive dog regardless of breed.

I have been faced with the 2 aggressive examples you gave (Staff & Chi). I deemed them an equal risk, as both are capable of damage.

So the fact you seem to think you know how my mind works, and what I deem to be a threat, Is what I call a load of bull.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> Oh dear lord......I am talking about the dangers of da dogs to other dogs....regardless of size but it goes without saying that a large breed *could* do more damage....by and large....than a 4lb dog.....its not rocket science really is it :mad2:


Could but not necessarily does. 
I will just point you towards Ouesi's excellent post earlier.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> No it's not. You do not even know me, so in no way can you pre-judge how I would act with any aggressive dog regardless of breed.
> 
> I have been faced with the 2 aggressive examples you gave (Staff & Chi). I deemed them an equal risk, as both are capable of damage.
> 
> So the fact you seem to think you know how my mind works, and what I deem to be a threat is what is a load of bull.


Okay AM you keep telling yourself that an aggressive Chi is as much of a danger as an aggressive Staff to you. You are right though....I dont know what you are about one bit...I had completely misread you...you always seemed to be knowledgeable on here but now I see you will come out with any bull to back your argument.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

chichi said:


> Did the OPs dog bother another dog then. I didnt read that.....my dogs dont bother other dogs. They are mostly on lead...still had a few nasty dogs try to bite them for no reason other than they are DA.....I shouldnt have to protect my dogs....the owners of DA digs should be taking responsibility for their dogs unacceptable behaviour.


My post was just to point out that not all owners of toy breeds allow their dogs to yap in the face of other dogs as it isn't acceptable.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> The load of bull was aimed at you being EQUALLY unhappy about facing an aggressive Chi as an aggressive Staffie.....we both know thats stretching it a little. ....putting it mildly.


Again, if my child were facing the wrath of an angry dog, Id much rather it be our 140 pound great dane who I KNOW has impulse control, bite inhibition, socialization, and training, than a toy breed who doesnt have any of the above.

Let me give you an example. As a toddler, one of my children fell down the stairs and landed on top of our old, arthritic, very large mutt dog who was sleeping on the landing. The dog was VERY ticked off, jumped up, roared at the child mouth wide open right around the childs face. ZERO damage. None. Zip. Nada. The poor kiddo was indeed very frightened, but completely uninjured.

Now, the dog who bit clear through my lower lip when I was a child, was less than half the size of the dog above, and bit me with far less provocation (I blew in his face).

The dogs I trust in my children's bed at night are not the smallest dogs in the house, but they are the most tolerant ones with the best bite inhibition.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I'd rather face whichever dog had the more responsible owner... and round here it would probably not be the chi.


I think chichi means, all things equal, a small aggressive dog or a larger one which would do more damage.

A larger dog will always do more damage then a smaller dog as they have larger teeth and more body weight to put into an attack.

I am a medium dog owner and know if he was aggressive and was to fight a smaller dog he would have the clear advantage and if he was to fight a larger one the disadvantage.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm afraid I'm another who won't be signing. 

I don't like the idea of dogs who attack other dogs could be destroyed, I feel this would be taken to far and that effectively any dogs even on first incidents being PTS just due to it being DA.

just my opinion


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> I have never seen a DA Chihuahua. Ive seen yappy ones but muzzling isnt necessary for barking or half the dogs in the Country would be muzzled when out.
> 
> It always makes me die on these threads when people bring up DA Chis.....sure they would be a nuisance...maybe even give a nasty bite but I very much doubt your average Chi is going to kill or seriously hurt any dog larger than themselves.....even if they tried. Chis...by and large. ...are mouthy if anything. The majority have enough sense not to get physical with a larger dog. For the record 99 per cent of the time my lot are on lead when out....because of irresponsible owners of other dogs.


I have. It's drawn blood on my dog and feels my boot now as I said. Kilo is afraid of the dog now - the owner thinks it's hilarious although does get annoyed when I repel the little bugger. I don't think it is hilarious when he either reacts noisily or more commonly lies down in the street or cowers with his tail between his legs. No he isn't going to be physically hurt I wouldn't have thought but it makes me feel so exhausted every time it happens and so upset to see my dog afraid. The whole street finds it funny. I do not.



chichi said:


> I cant quote but who said that yappy toy dogs are all well and good? These threads are always the same.....when a Chi rags your lab....gsd.....stafffie...mal...husky and leaves it for dead....then we will talk about Chis being by and large dangerous....until then I just think your making excuses for da dogs....
> 
> Bring in the legislation and let the courts decide who is at fault and who isnt. Might make some of those irresponsible owners that let their DA aggressive dogs offlead think twice.


It's not just physical damage that is harmful though is it? My dog is not DA BTW.

Common courtesy goes both ways. As a large, entire male dog owner I 'drive defensively' if you will. I am aware that his size could pose a problem in some circumstances as could the fact that he is intact. I don't let him run and play offlead with tiny dogs - in case they are hurt through clumsiness or through any predatory drift that may occur. I walk him in busy areas on a headcollar and short lead so that I have very close control - this is needed about 70% of the time I go to the park due to 'feisty' little dogs running up or lunging and barking on lead; this is very much a small dog owning area.

In return I would expect the owners of small dogs to extend me the same courtesy and work just as hard on controlling their dogs. Unfortunately many (not all, I don't wish to tar all with the same brush) do not - instead their dogs run up to us, bark and lunge on lead, snap and bite and they are "All mouth", "Think they are a big dog", "Have attitude", "All mouth no trousers", "All bark and no bite" whereas mine "Looks like he wants to eat him", "Could have him for breakfast", "Shouldn't be in a public place unmuzzled" - for daring to finally respond.

I respect small dog owners and give those who have told me that their small dogs are afraid of big dogs a wide berth or sit Kilo so they can pass; some small dog owners could do with respecting large dog owners too - this perception that many have that big dogs should be impervious to be aggression and fear and calm in the face of anything is a bit wearing.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> I'd rather face whichever dog had the more responsible owner... and round here it would probably not be the chi.


Oh right Phoolf....a responsible owner of Chi or Staff that was aggressive would not allow their dog offlead and therefore have access to do harm.....so your point is pretty pointless...if you get my point. Oh and thanks for the neg rep....sad individual


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Dogless said:


> It's not just physical damage that is harmful though is it? My dog is not DA BTW.
> 
> Common courtesy goes both ways. As a large, entire male dog owner I 'drive defensively' if you will. I am aware that his size could pose a problem in some circumstances as could the fact that he is intact. I don't let him run and play offlead with tiny dogs - in case they are hurt through clumsiness or through any predatory drift that may occur. I walk him in busy areas on a headcollar and short lead so that I have very close control - this is needed about 70% of the time I go to the park due to 'feisty' little dogs running up or lunging and barking on lead; this is very much a small dog owning area.
> 
> ...


THIS!!!!!!! 
Terence once wee'd on the floor because a toy breed went for him. The owner thought it was hilarious. I didn't.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> Oh right Phoolf....a responsible owner of Chi or Staff that was aggressive would not allow their dog offlead and therefore have access to do harm.....so your point is pretty pointless...if you get my point. Oh and thanks for the neg rep....sad individual


and yet your point was just as 'pointless' my dear


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I think chichi means, all things equal, a small aggressive dog or a larger one which would do more damage.
> 
> A larger dog will always do more damage then a smaller dog as they have ;arger teeth and more body weight to put into an attack.
> 
> I am a medium dog owner and know if he was aggressive and was to fight a smaller dog he would have the clear advantage and if he was to fight a larger one the disadvantage.


Thanks EmmaV......I think some are being wilfully ignorant to what I am saying but you have hit the nail on the head. Thanks


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

pogo said:


> and yet your point was just as 'pointless' my dear


And as pointless as your one liner......my dear.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Okay AM you keep telling yourself that an aggressive Chi is as much of a danger as an aggressive Staff to you. You are right though....I dont know what you are about one bit...I had completely misread you...you always seemed to be knowledgeable on here but now I see you will come out with any bull to back your argument.


Least I don't threaten to punch somebodies lights out eh? 

I also know a bit about Chi's, yet have never owned one. These things are what you would expect a Chi owner to know about their breed.

In the end, even all the breed clubs make mention of how Chi's have a high tendency to be dog aggressive to other breeds. 

Like I have said any size dog can make contact in the "right" area and cause death.

Think of it as;

a) Which is most likely to kill you, a single punch or a gun?

Both can if they hit certain areas. So they are an equal threat.

b) A small woman stabbing you in the heart, is just as likely to kill you, as a big rugby player stabbing you in the heart.

So if a dog bites and hits a major artery etc, it will make no difference if that offender was a toy breed or a giant breed.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> And as pointless as your one liner......my dear.


and guess who doesn't give a ****


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> My post was just to point out that not all owners of toy breeds allow their dogs to yap in the face of other dogs as it isn't acceptable.


Agreed. However mine have been attacked completely unprovoked...as were the ones recently reported on this forum. Even if my dog did yap at another....in their face....I dont think that is reason to be attacked.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

pogo said:


> and guess who doesn't give a ****


Good for you:thumbup:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I think chichi means, all things equal, a small aggressive dog or a larger one which would do more damage.


When are all things equal though? Theyre not. Ever.

And even IF you were to create a laboratory environment where are things really are equal, you would very likely find how small a role the size of the dog plays in the final damage caused by the bite.

What kind of bite inhibition does the dog have? A 100 pound dog biting with excellent bite inhibition is going to cause far less damage than a 10 pound dog biting with very poor bite inhibition.

What kind of bite was it? Warning bite? Fearful nip? Angry but controlled correction bite? Prey driven bite and shake?

What biting style does the dog have. Is the dog a nip and retreat biter or a grab and hold biter?


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Dogless said:


> *Common courtesy goes both ways.* As a large, entire male dog owner I 'drive defensively' if you will. I am aware that his size could pose a problem in some circumstances as could the fact that he is intact. I don't let him run and play offlead with tiny dogs - in case they are hurt through clumsiness or through any predatory drift that may occur. I walk him in busy areas on a headcollar and short lead so that I have very close control - this is needed about 70% of the time I go to the park due to 'feisty' little dogs running up or lunging and barking on lead; this is very much a small dog owning area.
> 
> In return I would expect the owners of small dogs to extend me the same courtesy and work just as hard on controlling their dogs. Unfortunately many (not all, I don't wish to tar all with the same brush) do not - instead their dogs run up to us, bark and lunge on lead, snap and bite and they are "All mouth", "Think they are a big dog", "Have attitude", "All mouth no trousers", "All bark and no bite" whereas mine "Looks like he wants to eat him", "Could have him for breakfast", "Shouldn't be in a public place unmuzzled" - for daring to finally respond.
> 
> *I respect small dog owners* and give those who have told me that their small dogs are afraid of big dogs a wide berth or sit Kilo so they can pass; some small dog owners could do with respecting large dog owners too - this perception that many have that big dogs should be impervious to be aggression and fear and calm in the face of anything is a bit wearing.


This. Totally. It always saddens me when discussions like these always end up with a "Us and Them" attitude between owners of small/large dogs. Why can't there be empathy and respect for both from both? I've owned a "power" breed and a "feeble" breed, they both pose their own challenges.

My own experience is that is has been harder with the more physically vulnerable tiny dog. The rottie x, Boo commanded respect and nuisance dogs were less of an issue but I know it isn't like this for everyone and depends on the dog itself. And it certainly wasn't easy when he was medically vulnerable from cruciate surgeries- when smaller dogs caused him a lot of pain from boisterousness. You can't pick up a rottie to save his back legs unfortunately!

The owners of that chihuahua are a disgrace- who asides from anything else obviously have a complete disregard for their own dogs safety. Henri can be an angel and he can be a devil (sadly it's the very large dogs that brings out the worst in him)- but he is always under control. The idea of letting him bark in the face of or run after another dog is insanity to me. Beyond unreasonable.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> Agreed. However mine have been attacked completely unprovoked...as were the ones recently reported on this forum. Even if my dog did yap at another....in their face....I dont think that is reason to be attacked.


The point is, is that no dog deserves to be attacked unprovoked (although the attacking dog will always have a reason even if we don't understand it) - but being attacked is not solely the domain of the toy dog, unfortunately. I can see no reason for the few attacks Kilo has experienced but can hazard a guess that he was at an age where his hormones were running riot for a few of them. The ones by small dogs were before adolescence, he was onlead and the others off (as he has been for all incidents). I couldn't see any reason for them, but I'm sure there were - not that he deserved it by any stretch.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> Good for you:thumbup:


why thank you


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Least I don't threaten to punch somebodies lights out eh?
> 
> I also know a bit about Chi's, yet have never owned one. These things are what you would expect a Chi owner to know about their breed.
> 
> ...


Yes AM you keep telling yourself that your waffle is valid and please dont bring other threads arguments up...how many threads did you want to get closed today exactly.

Oh and what dog is it that you own currently.....Ive forgotten....silly me.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Personally, I wouldn't want to be bitten by anything with teeth. 

I would prefer it if aggressive dogs wore a muzzle in public (and in some cases, a lead ), regardless of size.
Freddie is nervous aggressive and although he's improving dramatically, I'm not going to risk someone elses dog being bitten by him, but I don't think it's fair that he would be at risk of being PTS if someone let their dog get up in his face and he reacted out of fear.

It's a shame this kind of thing always turns into a split between big and small, because surely the one thing we all have in common is that, regardless of size, none of us allow our dogs to get away with anti social behaviour.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> *It always saddens me when discussions like these always end up with a "Us and Them" attitude between owners of small/large dogs. **Why can't there be empathy and respect for both from both?.
> *


It saddens me too; I behave as responsibly as I can towards other dog owners (whatever the size of dog) and we have lots of nice walks where the same respect is extended to me. Where respect and empathy are lost is where it all seems to deteriorate.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I think chichi means, all things equal, a small aggressive dog or a larger one which would do more damage.
> 
> A larger dog will always do more damage then a smaller dog as they have ;arger teeth and more body weight to put into an attack.
> 
> I am a medium dog owner and know if he was aggressive and was to fight a smaller dog he would have the clear advantage and if he was to fight a larger one the disadvantage.


This is true to a point but the attitude of 'my toy dog won't cause much damage and therefore exempt from this' is a trifle tiring IMO. Any dog can cause damage just bigger dogs are more likely to be blamed for any problem. As this petition seems to penalise against bigger dogs I agree with the owners this is very slanted towards which dog does more damage.

A small dog can instigate an attack but come off worse, it is the owner of said small dog's responsibility to protect their dog. Allowing it to snap and bite a larger dog is *not* taking this responsibility nor taking ownership of a dog seriously.

You are obviously a caring owner of Chihuahuas and have been victim to unprovocked attacks by bigger dogs which is also wrong but to be in denial that DA toy dogs can also be a problem to other dog owners is frustrating!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Dogless said:


> It saddens me too; I behave as responsibly as I can towards other dog owners (whatever the size of dog) and we have lots of nice walks where the same respect is extended to me. Where respect and empathy are lost is where it all seems to deteriorate.


Totally agree with this!

Also gets me that in _general_ these sorts of threads always end up being all breeds against staffs too.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

BlueBeagle said:


> This is true to a point but the attitude of 'my toy dog won't cause much damage and therefore exempt from this' is a trifle tiring IMO. Any dog can cause damage just bigger dogs are more likely to be blamed for any problem. As this petition seems to penalise against bigger dogs I agree with the owners this is very slanted towards which dog does more damage.
> 
> A small dog can instigate an attack but come off worse, it is the owner of said small dog's responsibility to protect their dog. Allowing it to snap and bite a larger dog is *not* taking this responsibility nor taking ownership of a dog seriously.
> 
> You are obviously a caring owner of Chihuahuas and have been victim to unprovocked attacks by bigger dogs which is also wrong but to be in denial that DA toy dogs can also be a problem to other dog owners is frustrating!


LOL, I'm not an owner of a chi!

But yes I agree, no dog, whatever size should behave in such a way. 
They should all be trained to be well mannered and well behaved and if they are aggressive they need to be under control at all times, whatever breed.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Yes AM you keep telling yourself that your waffle is valid and please dont bring other threads arguments up...how many threads did you want to get closed today exactly.
> 
> Oh and what dog is it that you own currently.....Ive forgotten....silly me.


None at present.

But I have owned a Collie, a Lab, a Greyhound, a Lurcher, a Poodle and a Golden.

Not sure what dogs I have or have had, have to do with matters though.

But if you want to decide on how valid my points are based on me as a person then ask away. However to save you asking, I have more than the UK average. 

I have had no connection with getting threads closed today. I think I know what thread you are making reference to. However that was not me, I had 4 people who PM'd me mentioning they were thinking of doing so or had reported it.

However I did not report the thread itself, (I did however report someone who was rude to me in that thread.)

So like my much used saying goes... ASSUME - makes an ASS out of U and ME.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

These threads do always go down the same route because larger dog owners REFUSE point blank to agree that the damage a large dog can do is enormous on the whole to the damage a tiny 2 kilo dog can do. Then of course you get those that join the discussion just to cause more argument. Waste of time really.....


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

pogo said:


> Totally agree with this!
> 
> Also gets me that in _general_ these sorts of threads always end up being all breeds against staffs too.


Errr have you read the thread......Chis have been slated to bits....by many.....


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> These threads do always go down the same route because larger dog owners REFUSE point blank to agree that the damage a large dog can do is enormous on the whole to the damage a tiny 2 kilo dog can do. Then of course you get those that join the discussion just to cause more argument. Waste of time really.....


Did you not read any of the posts I have made about bite inhibition? 
Do you understand what bite inhibition IS?


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> LOL, I'm not an owner of a chi!
> 
> But yes I agree, no dog, whatever size should behave in such a way.
> They should all be trained to be well mannered and well behaved and if they are aggressive they need to be under control at all times, whatever breed.


I know you don't own Chi's I just got carried away in my reply, how embarrassing


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> These threads do always go down the same route because larger dog owners REFUSE point blank to agree that the damage a large dog can do is enormous on the whole to the damage a tiny 2 kilo dog can do. Then of course you get those that join the discussion just to cause more argument. Waste of time really.....


I don't think anyone has refused to see that - several of my posts have acknowledged that I realise how much damage my dog can do; I am well aware of that. If he were to hurt another dog in the same way that Tink was I would be totally devastated. All I have simply said as well is that damage does not have to be physical and that it is unfair if all altercations between large and small dogs where the small dog is the instigator end up with the large dog being blamed for it.

On the other hand you seem to refuse to believe that toy dogs can cause any damage - again it does go both ways.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> None at present.
> 
> But I have owned a Collie, a Lab, a Greyhound, a Lurcher, a Poodle and a Golden.
> 
> ...


Much used......no.......over-used maybe.....

Take it you wont be getting a scary Chi when you do actually get a dog then


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

BlueBeagle said:


> I know you don't own Chi's I just got carried away in my reply, how emabrrasing


Haha, no worries!

He's a bit of a funny looking one and completely the wrong colour and size!!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Did you not read any of the posts I have made about bite inhibition?
> Do you understand what bite inhibition IS?


Please dont talk down to me....I am well aware of what bite inhibition is. Perhaps you need to teach the concept of bite inhibition to those owners of da dogs that have killed or seriously hurt other dogs. Dont preach to the choir....as they say.....


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Much used......no.......over-used maybe.....
> 
> Take it you wont be getting a scary Chi when you do actually get a dog then


No I wont. I see them as "Lady Dogs". My street cred will go out the window, if I am seen walking one of them.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I don't think anyone has refused to see that - several of my posts have acknowledged that I realise how much damage my dog can do; I am well aware of that. If he were to hurt another dog in the same way that Tink was I would be totally devastated. All I have simply said as well is that damage does not have to be physical and that it is unfair if all altercations between large and small dogs where the small dog is the instigator end up with the large dog being blamed for it.
> 
> On the other hand you seem to refuse to believe that toy dogs can cause any damage - again it does go both ways.


Oh my goodness......I didnt say that small dogs couldnt do any damage...just that they are unlikely to kill or seriously hurt another dog in the way larger dogs can and do hurt toys on so many occasions.

I have said that any dog owner whose dog attacks and seriously hurts another dog should face the courts.....the argument is that many of you believe that the little dogs ask for it....therefore giving a get out of jail free card to the owner....this is what I dont agree with.

Im done here anyway. Cannot keep repeating myself.....so frustrating!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> Oh my goodness......I didnt say that small dogs couldnt do any damage...just that they are unlikely to kill or seriously hurt another dog in the way larger dogs can and do hurt toys on so many occasions.
> 
> I have said that any dog owner whose dog attacks and seriously hurts another dog should face the courts.....the argument is that many of you believe that the little dogs ask for it....therefore giving a get out of jail free card to the owner....this is what I dont agree with.
> 
> Im done here anyway. Cannot keep repeating myself.....so frustrating!


No dog deserves it; some may be asking for it with body language and behaviour (any size!) - but that's for the owner to watch out for and protect against and teach the dog more appropriate strategies.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> Please dont talk down to me....I am well aware of what bite inhibition is. Perhaps you need to teach the concept of bite inhibition to those owners of da dogs that have killed or seriously hurt other dogs. Dobt preach to the choir....as they say.....


Okay, but your answer above makes it seem like you really dont understand bite inhibition.
Forgive me but when someone says theyve never seen a DA chi along with other statements you have made, it really does seem that you dont understand dog behavior.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> Oh my goodness......I didnt say that small dogs couldnt do any damage...just that they are unlikely to kill or seriously hurt another dog in the way larger dogs can and do hurt toys on so many occasions.
> 
> I have said that any dog owner whose dog attacks and seriously hurts another dog should face the courts.....the argument is that many of you believe that the little dogs ask for it....therefore giving a get out of jail free card to the owner....this is what I dont agree with.
> 
> Im done here anyway. Cannot keep repeating myself.....so frustrating!


I must have been reading a completely different thread. :confused1:


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> I must have been reading a completely different thread. :confused1:


I was thinking the same. Either the story has changed, or a lot of us have the wrong end of the stick.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Thanks EmmaV......I think some are being wilfully ignorant to what I am saying but you have hit the nail on the head. Thanks


I think what EmmaV missed out is that regardless of size or mass bite inhibition is one of the greatest factors. My dog with great bite inhibition would do less damage than my parents dog who has no inhibition and is not trained in any way but is 1/5 of the size of my dog. Moral of the story: Don't think you can get away with not training your dog just because 'it's small so couldn't hurt a fly', because that's bull.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

chichi said:


> I will be signing the petition. There is NEVER a good reason for a dog attacking another dog to the point of it needing emergency vet treatment.....just excuses for aggressive dogs.


My initial comment for those that are concerned....no mention of Chis being exempt....


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> Errr have you read the thread......Chis have been slated to bits....by many.....


yes i read the thread and i guess you missed the 'in general' bit i put also


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> My initial comment for those that are concerned....no mention of Chis being exempt....


Doesn't mean it's not misguided.


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## Rah (Sep 26, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Moral of the story: Don't think you can get away with not training your dog just because 'it's small so couldn't hurt a fly', because that's bull.


:thumbup: :laugh:

SJ x


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> I think what EmmaV missed out is that regardless of size or mass bite inhibition is one of the greatest factors. My dog with great bite inhibition would do less damage than my parents dog who has no inhibition and is not trained in any way but is 1/5 of the size of my dog. Moral of the story: Don't think you can get away with not training your dog just because 'it's small so couldn't hurt a fly', because that's bull.


Who is trying to get away with not training their small dog......


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

> chichi said:
> 
> 
> > I will be signing the petition. *There is NEVER a good reason for a dog attacking another dog to the point of it needing emergency vet treatment*.....just excuses for aggressive dogs.
> ...


Chichi, Ill repeat my earlier question to you since if you answered, Ive missed it.

If Im out and about with my kids and dogs, and a dog shows up, lunges at one of my children, barking and snarling, and my dane acts in response to protect the child, and the lunging dog ends up injured by my dog, am I making excuses for an aggressive dog?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Now the bad language.....who is pathetic. Grow up fgs


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I think what EmmaV missed out is that regardless of size or mass bite inhibition is one of the greatest factors. My dog with great bite inhibition would do less damage than my parents dog who has no inhibition and is not trained in any way but is 1/5 of the size of my dog. Moral of the story: Don't think you can get away with not training your dog just because 'it's small so couldn't hurt a fly', because that's bull.


In fairness I only said all things equal, 2 aggressive dogs, one large and one small the larger one will do more damage. I meant 2 dogs without bite inhibition.

I also said that no dog of whatever size should ever be acting aggressively!


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

Sigh... So we have time to insult each other but answering a legitimate question that could add to the discussion is not on the agenda I see...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> In fairness I only said all things equal, 2 aggressive dogs, one large and one small the larger one will do more damage. I meant 2 dogs without bite inhibition.
> 
> I also said that *no dog of whatever size should ever be acting aggressively!*


Really? So if an intruder came into your house with a knife and tried to stab you, only for your dog to bite its hand and save you, that would be wrong? You would be disappointed that your dog acted aggressively?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> Now the bad language.....who is pathetic. Grow up fgs


Naaaw did i offend you, I love to swear get used to it!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Really? So if an intruder came into your house with a knife and tried to stab you, only for your dog to bite its hand and save you, that would be wrong? You would be disappointed that your dog acted aggressively?


OK this is going wildly off topic of dog on dog attacks.

But to answer I think it would depend on how severe the attack.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> OK this is going wildly off topic of dog on dog attacks.
> 
> But to answer I think it would depend on how severe the attack.


So then it's okay for dogs to be aggressive to a certain extent, dependent on circumstances. Not in line with your original 'no dog of whatever size should ever be acting aggressively!'. In general it's the same for humans, but we also accept that sometimes being aggressive or violent is warranted in order to protect ourselves or our loved ones, which is something we share in common with canines.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> So then it's okay for dogs to be aggressive to a certain extent, dependent on circumstances. Not in line with your original 'no dog of whatever size should ever be acting aggressively!'. In general it's the same for humans, but we also accept that sometimes being aggressive or violent is warranted in order to protect ourselves or our loved ones, which is something we share in common with canines.


I was talking about the original argument of dogs going up to other dogs in an aggressive way. Which shouldn't be tolerated.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Chichi I'm sorry but you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder and a massive thing against staffies.

I own a staffie, she has been 'attacked' by labs and boxers.

She can also be slightly DA, however as many know on here Lexi suffers terribley with allergies, her face, tummy and belly all blister and become sore, she also has a sore hip.
I let her off the lead but she never approaches a dog she doesn't know off lead.
However it is amaxing the number of people that allow their off lead dogs to run over to my on lead dog and then are shocked when they get a growl and a snap.
I will also state Lexi is ALL noise, she tells dogs off, lots of noise and nothing else but surely my dog is not expecting too much to be walked by her responsible owner on lead and be left alone.
And she isn't truely DA she will paly with dogs off lead, however it has to be dogs that know to give her space and won't be too OTT with her.

I have nothing against small dogs infact we regularly see a lady with two very polite Chis that my dogs like and great nicely. However today coming off the field I had lex and bos on lead and a man walked on with an off lead chi, it started barking yapping as soon as it saw my two and nipped Lexi. At that point Lexi growled, just a growl and the bloke started telling me she should be muzzled etc......excuse me your dog just bit my dog and you are telling me to muzzle MY dog??

I won't be signing for obvious reasons.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Can't quote but LexiLou, you need to read before making assumptions. I have said in previous threads that I have no problem with Staffies and that we have them in the family and they are all lovely, so you are way off on that one....sorry to disappoint but you can't chuck the Staffie Hater thing at me......

I wasn't going to comment on this thread because certain members are resorting to personal insults (as they often do) but I will not be labelled as a Staffie hater when it's not true, so please get your facts right.

Many have slated Chis on this thread but I haven't said "you have a massive problem with Chis" - they used the breed as an example, as I have done with Staffs, like chalk and cheese, Staffs and Chis......anyway, believe what you want but don't tar me with the wrong brush please.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> I have corrected Ang2 on that case she linked to before, (that owner was convicted for an out of control dog under DDA 1991 (he did not know its whereabouts since the attack), not for the dog on dog attack, so will not say any more connected to that.
> 
> Dog on dog attacks are covered by law. No matter where you live, it has been an offence since 1871 for a dog to attack another dog.
> 
> ...


Err, no need to correct me thanks! The OP said the dog had attacked before and even killed and nothing can be done. I was pointing out that there are cases where something HAS been done. The dog was ordered to be pts.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Is there really any point in resorting to personal insults on the thread rather than sticking to a reasoned debate that we can all learn from? It's how all these things end up closed.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> Can't quote but LexiLou, you need to read before making assumptions. I have said in previous threads that I have no problem with Staffies and that we have them in the family and they are all lovely, so you are way off on that one....sorry to disappoint but you can't chuck the Staffie Hater thing at me......
> 
> I wasn't going to comment on this thread because certain members are resorting to personal insults (as they often do) but I will not be labelled as a Staffie hater when it's not true, so please get your facts right.
> 
> Many have slated Chis on this thread but I haven't said "you have a massive problem with Chis" - they used the breed as an example, as I have done with Staffs, like chalk and cheese, Staffs and Chis......anyway, believe what you want but don't tar me with the wrong brush please.


No one has slated Chihuahuas. We have simply said that chihuahuas are just as capable of aggression as any other breed, and they can cause damage with a bite that connects just as any other breed. 
You keep saying that small dogs arent as dangerous as larger dogs and thats simply not true. 
A dogs size has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of a threshold the dog has before he will bite, and what kind of bite inhibition the dog has if he does bite.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

If you know that your dog is capable of being DA then it should be kept on a lead. There are lots of little happy dogs that run up to my DA dog, with happy smiley faces. It doesnt bother me at all and I shield them from him. Its not their (little dogs) fault that he is a grumpy old git!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

chichi said:


> Can't quote but LexiLou, you need to read before making assumptions. I have said in previous threads that I have no problem with Staffies and that we have them in the family and they are all lovely, so you are way off on that one....sorry to disappoint but you can't chuck the Staffie Hater thing at me......
> 
> I wasn't going to comment on this thread because certain members are resorting to personal insults (as they often do) but I will not be labelled as a Staffie hater when it's not true, so please get your facts right.
> 
> Many have slated Chis on this thread but I haven't said "you have a massive problem with Chis" - they used the breed as an example, as I have done with Staffs, like chalk and cheese, Staffs and Chis......anyway, believe what you want but don't tar me with the wrong brush please.


I have read thank you.

Sorry if you feel I labelled you as a staffie hater however throughout this thread and others you have mentioned them numerous times so it does come across as you have a dislike of them.
And for the record I have no issues with Chis, I actually come across more rude Yorkies than I do Chis, but I don't care if your dog is a dane, a chi, a yorkie or a lesser coated oober doodley dog if its rude its rude, no dog should be allowed to get away with barking yapping and snarling at other dogs.

But I think bringing in a law stating dog on dog attacks is so wishy washy, and realitically how many people are honestly going to say well my dog deserved it. To be fair Blitz is one of the very few people I have ever heard saying you know what my dog disobeyed me so she was at fault.

I've done enough reading watching and listening now to know if my dogs got a telling off/attacked whether they deserved it or note, but a lot of people miss the subtle signals that premepts most attacks.


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## XMaizieX (Sep 23, 2011)

I have a staffordshire bull terrier that isnt great with dogs she doesnt no as she was attacked by 2 jack russels as a pup.

Theres a tiny Yorkie that lives down my road. Its not walked and often left in the front garden and will bark, growl and lunge at the metal gate as you walk past. The owner if often in the front garden and doesnt correct her dog. 
A couple of weeks ago I was walking back from a walk and the Yorkie ran out of the open gate and ran up to Maizie barking and snaping at her (this is the second time this dog had ran out of the garden after my dog). The woman was shouting at her dog "dont you dare", Maiz tried to have a go back but I had her under close control. I didnt even get an apoliogy, Its almost like its aceptable to have a small "cute" dog out of control in the road, but i bet if it was the other way round and my Staffie was loose and out of control I would be in trouble.

Anyway a couple of days after this happened I was walking past and the Yorkie was at the gate barking and growling at us while the owner was chatting to a neighbour and Maiz reacted badly, she kind of screams rather than barks (not sure if its a Staffie thing). I crossed over and kept walking and overheard the owner say "oh my god". Maiz only reacted as the little dog went for her first :mad2:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi

I am really sorry but I can't use quote mostly on my phone, so please forgive.

My point was exactly what you have stated, people were bringing up Chis in the argument, as I was bringing up Staffies, with them being the total opposite to Chis, I suppose I could have used GSDs or another breed (like others could have used Yorkies, etc) but Staffs were the first to spring to mind yet LexiLou makes out that I have a massive problem with Staffies......that is simply untrue. My dogs play with the family Staffies.....if I had a thing against the breed, would I allow them to play with my dogs......

Sure I am wary of all larger UNKNOWN dogs.....not just for aggression but for being over excited.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> If you know that your dog is capable of being DA then it should be kept on a lead. There are lots of little happy dogs that run up to my DA dog, with happy smiley faces. It doesnt bother me at all and I shield them from him. Its not their (little dogs) fault that he is a grumpy old git!


I assume this is aimed at me. I am lucky enough to live near a field that all local dog walkers use and very very few other people. So I know the dogs shes fine with I know the dogs shes not fine with and she has a good recall so I am 100% confident letting her off the lead, its open and I can see people coming well before she does and take the neccessary actions.
If we go ANYWHERE else she is either on lead or at the very least on a long line. She also doesn't 'go straight in for the attack' her first instinct is to run away, its only if the dog is persistant that she gets grumpy so there is enough of a time for me to act.

Finally what is the defination of DA? Lexi will growl and air snap but has never ever ever caused harm to any dog. Is she DA?

I'm sorry if the comment wasn't aimed at me


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> ouesi
> 
> I am really sorry but I can't use quote mostly on my phone, so please forgive.
> 
> ...


How are Chis and Staffies opposites of each other? 
I find them actually rather similar what with the terrier-like qualities they both have...


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## XMaizieX (Sep 23, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> I assume this is aimed at me. I am lucky enough to live near a field that all local dog walkers use and very very few other people. So I know the dogs shes fine with I know the dogs shes not fine with and she has a good recall so I am 100% confident letting her off the lead, its open and I can see people coming well before she does and take the neccessary actions.
> If we go ANYWHERE else she is either on lead or at the very least on a long line. She also doesn't 'go straight in for the attack' her first instinct is to run away, its only if the dog is persistant that she gets grumpy so there is enough of a time for me to act.
> 
> Finally what is the defination of DA? Lexi will growl and air snap but has never ever ever caused harm to any dog. Is she DA?
> ...


Likewise is Maiz DA? Shes reacts badly to some dogs. I cant let her of the lead as when she sees another dog she fixates onto it and if she was off lead would make a beeline stright for it 

However once she got to no another dog shes fine. shes never hurt another dog, Even when she once got into a fight with another dog at training (she pulled the lead out of my hand) she didnt leave a single mark or cut.

So would this be classed at DA?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

The problem with staffies are they are very vocal.

They apparantly have the widest vocal range of any dog breed and vocalise a lot.

Lexi is noisey in EVERYTHING. She snores, she grunts when she walks, she grunts a different grunt when she eats, she growls when she plays, she talks, she barks for attention, she vocalises at everything.

But been a staffie its labelled as aggression.


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## XMaizieX (Sep 23, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> The problem with staffies are they are very vocal.
> 
> They apparantly have the widest vocal range of any dog breed and vocalise a lot.
> 
> ...


Maiz def has a wide vocal range. She rarely barks. But she winges, crys and yaps lol


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> How are Chis and Staffies opposites of each other?
> I find them actually rather similar what with the terrier-like qualities they both have...


Really....my Chis are not terrier like....I have owned terriers and they were a whole planet different to the Chis. Apart from that they are both from the dog world....I cannot think of any other way Chis are like Staffies. Then again....I can only go by my family Staffs who love everyone...dog and human....whereas my Chis will hold off on whether they like you let alone love you.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> I assume this is aimed at me. I am lucky enough to live near a field that all local dog walkers use and very very few other people. So I know the dogs shes fine with I know the dogs shes not fine with and she has a good recall so I am 100% confident letting her off the lead, its open and I can see people coming well before she does and take the neccessary actions.
> If we go ANYWHERE else she is either on lead or at the very least on a long line. She also doesn't 'go straight in for the attack' her first instinct is to run away, its only if the dog is persistant that she gets grumpy so there is enough of a time for me to act.
> 
> Finally what is the defination of DA? Lexi will growl and air snap but has never ever ever caused harm to any dog. Is she DA?
> ...


I can answer that for those people who do not know Lexilou2 and Lexi.
Lexi is NOT DA. She is perfectly happy to play with other dogs. She played with Terence and Nala quite happily this afternoon.
However, she will not (and should not have to) tolerate rude dogs. If somebody else's dog comes up in her space and barks and growls, she will warn them to back off. Terence has been told of by Lex and guess what, not a mark on him and 1 minute later they were running around the field again.
But I have no doubt that some people will mistake a quick telling off for aggression. I suggest they read up on doggy behaviour.
As for Lexilou2: she has to be one of the most dedicated and responsible dog owners I know, so for anyone to suggest she is behaving in a manner that endangers other people's dogs is, frankly, laughable. :nonod:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

chichi said:


> Really....my Chis are not terrier like....I have owned terriers and they were a whole planet different to the Chis. Apart from that they are both from the dog world....I cannot think of any other way Chis are like Staffies. Then again....I can only go by my family Staffs who love everyone...dog and human....whereas my Chis will hold off on whether they like you let alone love you.


Still doesnt answer my question about how you think staffie when you think opposite of chi. Are you going by size? Staffies arent even a very large breed. Great dane vs. chi would be a more apt opposite. St. Bernard vs. yorkie, that sort of thing. I just dont see what you mean by staffies are the opposite of chis.

Nor have you answered any of my other questions I asked in an attempt to understand how you arrive at the statements you post on here. Oh well...


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I can answer that for those people who do not know Lexilou2 and Lexi.
> Lexi is NOT DA. She is perfectly happy to play with other dogs. She played with Terence and Nala quite happily this afternoon.
> However, she will not (and should not have to) tolerate rude dogs. If somebody else's dog comes up in her space and barks and growls, she will warn them to back off. Terence has been told of by Lex and guess what, not a mark on him and 1 minute later they were running around the field again.
> But I have no doubt that some people will mistake a quick telling off for aggression. I suggest they read up on doggy behaviour.
> As for Lexilou2: she has to be one of the most dedicated and responsible dog owners I know, so for anyone to suggest she is behaving in a manner that endangers other people's dogs is, frankly, laughable. :nonod:


Thank you hun!! I try my best, I have complicated little characters, hoping the pup breaks that trend!!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> The problem with staffies are they are very vocal.
> 
> They apparantly have the widest vocal range of any dog breed and vocalise a lot.
> 
> ...


It's the same with our Bob, & when all 3 are playing it sounds like WW3 in our house to the uninitiated, even worse when there's a poor squeaky toy in the mix, screaming for help


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## XMaizieX (Sep 23, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I can answer that for those people who do not know Lexilou2 and Lexi.
> Lexi is NOT DA. She is perfectly happy to play with other dogs. She played with Terence and Nala quite happily this afternoon.
> However, she will not (and should not have to) tolerate rude dogs. If somebody else's dog comes up in her space and barks and growls, she will warn them to back off. Terence has been told of by Lex and guess what, not a mark on him and 1 minute later they were running around the field again.
> But I have no doubt that some people will mistake a quick telling off for aggression. I suggest they read up on doggy behaviour.
> As for Lexilou2: she has to be one of the most dedicated and responsible dog owners I know, so for anyone to suggest she is behaving in a manner that endangers other people's dogs is, frankly, laughable. :nonod:


That sounds like my Maiz, Shes fine with oither dogs 9 times out of 10 but if a dog goes for her she will react back


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> These threads do always go down the same route because larger dog owners REFUSE point blank to agree that the damage a large dog can do is enormous on the whole to the damage a tiny 2 kilo dog can do. Then of course you get those that join the discussion just to cause more argument. Waste of time really.....


Very happy to say that a larger dog can potentially do more harm than a toy and a toy can probably be picked up thereby minimising the damage. However, too many people treat toy breeds like toys and fail to train them and think it's _hilarious_ when they attack a bigger dog.

I don't think it's just the responsibility of the DA dog owner to ensure their dog does no harm: the yellow dog project aims to use a sign to ask other owners to keep their dogs away (and safe). Try as I might to keep my dog on a short leash round others, some owners think it's fine for their dog to bounce up and get in my dog's face because 'he's just being friendly'. Zero etiquette.

One owner who regrets this has a chi. It's tiny. It was almost ripped apart y another dog last week because the owner knows it won't harm other dogs and hasn't trained it. It wanders the pardon the furthest side away from the owner who invariably wears headphones so can't hear me asking her to recall (which it doesn't anyway).

Not my dog that attacked it and caused £2000 worth of damage cos mine's trained and recalls and not allowed to be far from me.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> It's the same with our Bob, & when all 3 are playing it sounds like WW3 in our house to the uninitiated, even worse when there's a poor squeaky toy in the mix, screaming for help


I once got asked (by a fellow dog owner) why I allow my dogs to fight?! They were playing but mine (including puppy) are really vocal and to some who don't really understand dog I can see why it woudl look like fighting, that said I would hope a fellow dog owner would know the difference.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> But I have no doubt that some people will mistake a quick telling off for aggression. I suggest they read up on doggy behaviour.


Which comes to the issue of the topic whose point has been lost.


Should a dog be killed because of people's perceptions of aggression?
Are "courts" truly going to be unbiased when it comes to choosing which dog was the aggressor or would certain breeds/looks be penalized against and potentially be killed unfairly?

Shouldn't people encourage Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act Information - New dog law passed in Scotland (as most people have ignored this) to be also adopted in all of the UK instead. Seems a far more measured response.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Chichi, just out of interest, can you answer the three questions I last posted?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> I wont change my opinion for you and your sidekick.....try to lose your obsession with me you little stalker you.......lol


Excuse me? you love yourself don't you! and who is my little sidekick?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Chichi, just out of interest, can you answer the three questions I last posted?


Tbh I have lost interest....whatever I say is misconstrued.....even down to now I am a Staffie hater which couldnt be further from the truth.....so what point in giving my opinion or thoughts when a couple of members are intent On discrediting everything I say. Adding my opinion is like adding fuel to the fire.....so I wont go there....if you dont mind


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

pogo said:


> Excuse me? you love yourself don't you! and who is my little sidekick?


Random! Pmsl


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hell :lol: :lol:


not saying anyone on this thread behaves in this way..but, lots of small dog owners do find it very funny when their dog jumps over/bites a large dog...especially if its a so call 'ard dog' and I'm afraid if any small dog jumps on Mavis or infact any dog what so ever ...it will get a boot up the arse  



I don't think any dog should be killed because of dog on dog agression...


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> hell :lol: :lol:
> 
> not saying anyone on this thread behaves in this way..but, lots of small dog owners do find it very funny when their dog jumps over/bites a large dog...especially if its a so call 'ard dog' and I'm afraid if any small dog jumps on Mavis or infact any dog what so ever ...it will get a boot up the arse
> 
> I don't think any dog should be killed because of dog on dog agression...


I hate it when little dogs behave like loonies.....bad for the breed. There are so few that I come across tbh....mostly large breeds in my parts.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> I don't think any dog should be killed because of dog on dog agression...


Have to say, in some cases it may be kinder but should be an extreme measure, not a common one. In some ways I would rather a dog be PTS than be placed in a rescue center for life if it has to be taken away from an owner and cannot be rehomed. Make no mistake, no matter how "lenient" courts could be at some point a line would have to be drawn for irresponsible owners and the dog removed. Ideal world, no but then rescue centers would be empty as well.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

chichi said:


> Tbh I have lost interest....whatever I say is misconstrued.....even down to now I am a Staffie hater which couldnt be further from the truth.....so what point in giving my opinion or thoughts when a couple of members are intent On discrediting everything I say. Adding my opinion is like adding fuel to the fire.....so I wont go there....if you dont mind


Now that is aimed at me.

If you are going to start throwing accusations around can you please point me to the place where I have stated you are a staffie hater.
I stated you have a chip on your shoulder and an issue with staffies.

In a further post after you stating I needed to read, i replied I had read and in your post you come across as having an issue with staffies.

I have never once used the term hater and I also explained how I came to that opinion and I beleive I also used the term I'm sorry.

So please do not throw around accusations stating I called you a staffie hater.
I don't mind debates, I don't mind heated debates but I can't stand people that dramatise things or twist other peoples words to make out they are the victim.

If you can't take part in a debate without resorting to those type of tactics, well you shouldn't be taking part in a debate.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> Random! Pmsl


Random? it was a reply to your stupid little dig, and a genuine question, another you have failed to answer.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Have to say, in some cases it may be kinder but should be an extreme measure, not a common one. In some ways I would rather a dog be PTS than be placed in a rescue center for life if it has to be taken away from an owner and cannot be rehomed. Make no mistake, no matter how "lenient" courts could be at some point a line would have to be drawn for irresponsible owners and the dog removed. Ideal world, no but then rescue centers would be empty as well.


true ..thinking about it , it's no life for a dog


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Now that is aimed at me.
> 
> If you are going to start throwing accusations around can you please point me to the place where I have stated you are a staffie hater.
> I stated you have a chip on your shoulder and an issue with staffies.
> ...


Do you think everything anyone says is aimed at you. You made the point that Ive said stuff about Staffs before....so an apology in one sentence and an up yours in another.

I dont think its up to you to decide who takes part in a thread but tbh. ....this threads run its course..... so no great loss.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

chichi said:


> Do you think everything anyone says is aimed at you. You made the point that Ive said stuff about Staffs before....so an apology in one sentence and an up yours in another.
> 
> I dont think its up to you to decide who takes part in a thread but tbh. ....this threads run its course..... so no great loss.


No I don't think everything everyone says is aimed at me, luckily I am not so far up my own rear end to think the whole world revolves around me.

However seen as I am the only person on this entire thread that has mentioned:
a) letting my grumpy dog off lead
b) you seemingly having issues with staffies

then I would (rightly or wrongly) assume that the 2 posts (in a 14 page thread) are aimed at me and would like the have the oppetunity to defend myself.

I have never once stated you are a staffie hater, I have never once said you are an anything hater, I said you SEEM to have an issue with staffies and you APPEAR to have an issue with staffies. I can only form a judgement on what I read and on this thread this is the opinion I came to after reading your posts.

I also never stated you couldn't post on this thread, I said if you can't take part in a reasoned debate without twisting other peoples words (a feat you seem to have once again achieved) you shouldn't be taking part. This is my opinion, as far as I am aware even on a forum I am allowed my opinion, and I personally find it frustrating when people have to resort to such tatics to take part in such a discussion.

Again I apologise if you feel I labelled you an anything hater, as I said my opinion was only formed by what you yourself wrote.
I also believe you labelled a number of people Chi haters.
And I apologise if you feel I am acting as the lord supreme stating who can and can't post in this thread, I was simpely venting my frustration at having my words twisted, a feeling I am sure you can empathise with.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> No I don't think everything everyone says is aimed at me, luckily I am not so far up my own rear end to think the whole world revolves around me.
> 
> However seen as I am the only person on this entire thread that has mentioned:
> a) letting my grumpy dog off lead
> ...


I dont believe I said anyone was a Chi hater....so you are twisting my words there.....and yes you have a right to an opinion but when your opinion is about me and it is wrong....I have a right to set the record straight in no uncertain terms.

Unlike a couple on here.....I can move on to another thread and hold no grudge whatsoever....I hope you are the same. If you feel I have twisted your words at all I 
apologise.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

chichi said:


> I dont believe I said anyone was a Chi hater....so you are twisting my words there.....and yes you have a right to an opinion but when your opinion is about me and it is wrong....I have a right to set the record straight in no uncertain terms.
> 
> Unlike a couple on here.....I can move on to another thread and hold no grudge whatsoever....I hope you are the same. If you feel I have twisted your words at all I
> apologise.


Well at least we seem to have the same outlook. If tomorrow there is a thread and we both agree then well today is today and tomorrow is tomorrow.

So I think in this respect we say it was nice debating with you, we agree to disagree and on to the next thread :thumbup:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Well at least we seem to have the same outlook. If tomorrow there is a thread and we both agree then well today is today and tomorrow is tomorrow.
> 
> So I think in this respect we say it was nice debating with you, we agree to disagree and on to the next thread :thumbup:


Exactly.....


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> I assume this is aimed at me. I am lucky enough to live near a field that all local dog walkers use and very very few other people. So I know the dogs shes fine with I know the dogs shes not fine with and she has a good recall so I am 100% confident letting her off the lead, its open and I can see people coming well before she does and take the neccessary actions.
> If we go ANYWHERE else she is either on lead or at the very least on a long line. She also doesn't 'go straight in for the attack' her first instinct is to run away, its only if the dog is persistant that she gets grumpy so there is enough of a time for me to act.
> 
> Finally what is the defination of DA? Lexi will growl and air snap but has never ever ever caused harm to any dog. Is she DA?
> ...


No it wasnt aimed at you!

I was referring to owners with DA dogs who, when let off lead will attack another dog, and ignore recall. There are plenty of them, and they know what their dog is like, so there is no excuse.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> No it wasnt aimed at you!
> 
> I was referring to owners with DA dogs who, when let off lead will attack another dog, and ignore recall. There are plenty of them, and they know what their dog is like, so there is no excuse.


Ok sorry for thinking so, I was just concerned as I mentioned Lex having issues and letting her off lead.
As a positive having Lexi and having her able to go off lead shows that responsible owners that take precauctions knows their dogs and work on a solid recalle they can go off lead, but you have to have about 7 sets of eyes


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

XMaizieX said:


> Likewise is Maiz DA? Shes reacts badly to some dogs. I cant let her of the lead as when she sees another dog she fixates onto it and if she was off lead would make a beeline stright for it
> 
> However once she got to no another dog shes fine. shes never hurt another dog, Even when she once got into a fight with another dog at training (she pulled the lead out of my hand) she didnt leave a single mark or cut.
> 
> So would this be classed at DA?


If she makes a beeline for every dog when off lead - what does she do when she gets to them? If the answer is attack, then yes she is DA aggressive.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

cinammontoast said:


> Very happy to say that a larger dog can potentially do more harm than a toy and a toy can probably be picked up thereby minimising the damage. However, too many people treat toy breeds like toys and fail to train them and think it's _hilarious_ when they attack a bigger dog.
> 
> I don't think it's just the responsibility of the DA dog owner to ensure their dog does no harm: the yellow dog project aims to use a sign to ask other owners to keep their dogs away (and safe). Try as I might to keep my dog on a short leash round others, some owners think it's fine for their dog to bounce up and get in my dog's face because 'he's just being friendly'. Zero etiquette.
> 
> ...


And you think its the 'friendly' dogs fault that it got attacked? So how exactly did it get attacked? Presumably some moron with a DA dog off lead?


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

A law against stupid people would be better.

I once had a woman scream bloody murder that my "vicious" dog had attacked hers. They were in fact playing and wrestling each other.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ok sorry for thinking so, I was just concerned as I mentioned Lex having issues and letting her off lead.
> As a positive having Lexi and having her able to go off lead shows that responsible owners that take precauctions knows their dogs and work on a solid recalle they can go off lead, but you have to have about 7 sets of eyes


If you have control of your dog off lead, then I dont see a problem. Unfortunately my DA dog's recall is rubbish. For example, if I let him off lead, he would make a beeline for the first dog he saw, be aggressive, and take no notice of me!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> And you think its the 'friendly' dogs fault that it got attacked? So how exactly did it get attacked? Presumably some moron with a DA dog off lead?


my dog is dog aggressive and I let him off lead 

and I'm not a moron


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> The problem with staffies are they are very vocal.
> 
> They apparantly have the widest vocal range of any dog breed and vocalise a lot.
> 
> ...


Oh man that sounds like Dottie! Soooooo vocal, my god...even when shes playing on her own she sounds so vicious! If anyone saw her rough up Charlie they would deem her aggressive and dangerous. She made friends with a Rottie x Lab and they had a good play, they chased then when Dottie chased him he was like "this dog is crazy!" Dottie loved him but it could have looked vicious. I wonder how people would have taken it if it was the other way round? When discussing "attacks" we have to tread very carefully...I should know I have 2 dominant, people eating, aggresive dogs, didnt you know?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> my dog is dog aggressive and I let him off lead
> 
> and I'm not a moron


BUT does he have a good recall? I would not dare let my DA dog off lead because he hasnt.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> BUT does he have a good recall? I would not dare let my DA dog off lead because he hasnt.


he does


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> my dog is dog aggressive and I let him off lead
> 
> and I'm not a moron


Are you sure? 

Sorry couldn't resist, last thread I read you were married to Sleeping_lion so not sure if that makes you a moron (sorry Jo!!!)

Anyway back no subject, I assume its in controlled situations though? I know the dogs Lexi is good with and not good with, I'm not even sure I would class her as dog aggressive, to me aggressive means they attack with the purpose of doing damage where as Lexi 'attacks' without ever wanting to do damage but just loudly asking a dog for space, so I would class her as been dog reactive rather than aggressive.

I did consider muzzling her, just in case, however my issues are well I have a few.
She loves to play with my other 2, and they are all mouthy players.
She needs to be able to put Nala in her place at the mo, Nala is 19 weeks old and needs putting in her place some times.
The reason she is grumpy with other dogs is her allergies, she is only grumpy when her allergies flare up. Her face, so al her muzzle area up to under her eyes blisters, so putting a muzzle of any kind on is going to cause her more pain and make her more grumpy.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Now, last year, we had a vicious looking GS charging towards us, snarling and teeth showing, and this dog was huge. The owner shouted his name and the dog turned on a sixpence, and retreated to its owners side. I was proper impressed!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Lexi would never run snarling towards a dog, she runs away from them and hides, its only if the dog is persistant she gets a bit vocal.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> Sorry couldn't resist, last thread I read you were married to Sleeping_lion so not sure if that makes you a moron (sorry Jo!!!)
> 
> ...


:lol: :lol: ya bugger


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Owners are wholly to blame for their out of control DA dogs. If your dog is DA but responds to command, then I dont have a problem with this. I do have a problem with those who think its ok to let their dog off lead if they cant control it AND its DA !


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Owners are wholly to blame for their out of control DA dogs.


Think you need to define out of control more If a dog is on a lead where dogs are not supposed to be off lead and is still pestered by an off lead dog so reacts who is at fault?

Doesn't matter how well you handle your own dog, it only takes one idiot owner, even if their dog only wants to play to undo months of work where progress is being made.

Those who have DA dogs have a difficult responsibility but they are not the only ones who can always be blamed.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Think you need to define out of control more If a dog is on a lead where dogs are not supposed to be off lead and is still pestered by an off lead dog so reacts who is at fault?
> 
> Doesn't matter how well you handle your own dog, it only takes one idiot owner, even if their dog only wants to play to undo months of work where progress is being made.
> 
> Those who have DA dogs have a difficult responsibility but they are not the only ones who can always be blamed.


Well, I do have a DA dog, and I dont feel any resentment to other dogs running up to us, if they are friendly. I do explain to other owners that he is DA, and ask them to call their dog if they get tooooo close, but cant say that I am pissed off with a friendly playful dog. When this happens, I keep him on a very short lead. He also gets praised for the less he reacts, and he is definitely improving. He has to learn to tolerate other dogs and therefore I think its important that he meets other dogs.

My biggest dilemma is that my off lead dog wants to play with other friendly dogs. She so longs to charge about having fun with them. It would be easier to walk them separately, but they both go bonkers when I get the leads out and I couldnt take one without the other.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Last reminder to everyone that discussing rep on the forum isn't allowed


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> I do explain to other owners that he is DA, and ask them to call their dog if they get tooooo close


Unfortunately owners of off-lead dogs are not always near. In the example I stated earlier, who is at fault?

Again I'd like to point out that this thread is about a specific petition where dogs could be killed if deemed Dog Aggressive. I'm trying to point out a simple example where it's not necessarily black and white. It's easy to say DA dog owners need to be responsible, I don't think anyone can argue that but responsible ownership and basic understanding and responsibility should never be restricted to just those owners.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

Whenever I hear the idea that its okay for a friendly dog to run up to a leashed dog, I think of this video:

Off leash dog compassion- dog training - YouTube

Just not cool to let you dog run up to ANY leashed dog.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I would have to say it would be my fault if my dog seriously injured or killed another dog even whilst on lead. If I had any doubts about being able to control him 100% onlead, I would muzzle him. He is a pretty large dog, so I can hold his collar without having to bend down, so I have total control of his movement. 

Sorry, but I dont think a friendly, non-aggressive dog should pay with its life! I truly believe that MY dog is the problem, not others.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Sorry, but I dont think a friendly, non-aggressive dog should pay with its life! I truly believe that MY dog is the problem, not others.


My opinion is that many people's definition of "friendly" may actually be confrontational when looking at dog body language.

If you are in an on-lead area all dogs should be on-lead and it's the off-lead's dogs owner who is being irresponsible so we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> I would have to say it would be my fault if my dog seriously injured or killed another dog even whilst on lead. If I had any doubts about being able to control him 100% onlead, I would muzzle him. He is a pretty large dog, so I can hold his collar without having to bend down, so I have total control of his movement.
> 
> Sorry, but I dont think a friendly, non-aggressive dog should pay with its life! I truly believe that MY dog is the problem, not others.


Can i change this a littel and ask your opinion. your dog is nervous of dogs that rush up to them, as a result of being attacked. Would you still feel the same way about "friendly" dogs rushing over? A particular example was when during Tink's worst times I went somewhere that was a huge space and generally i never saw a soul, unfortunately someone joined from a path behind us and despite checking regularly. I didn't see them, the path was sandy i didn't hear their dog charging up from behind until it was upon us. It had poor braking was unable to stop and bowled Tink over. It took 19 positive experiences with golden retrievers to stop her being petrified of the very sight of them. Is it still ok?

So i'm afraid i'm not a fan of the my dog is friendly brigade. They have beed responsible for more setbacks in Tinks recovery than you can possibly imagine.

In addition it isn't actually friendly to charge at a strange dog. Polite greetings are slower where body language is expressed , 
read and respectd by both parties.

ETA My dog is not agressive, she would either freeze or take flight if offlead.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> I would have to say it would be my fault if my dog seriously injured or killed another dog even whilst on lead. If I had any doubts about being able to control him 100% onlead, I would muzzle him. He is a pretty large dog, so I can hold his collar without having to bend down, so I have total control of his movement.
> 
> Sorry, but I dont think a friendly, non-aggressive dog should pay with its life! I truly believe that MY dog is the problem, not others.


So you would be okay with a dog coming at your DA dog repeatedly like the golden in the video? Mine arent even DA and that kind of behavior flies all over me. Especially when mine are the giant dogs and the off leash dog is a toy breed with the owner giggling about how their dog just wants to play, or worse how their dog thinks he so tough taking on a big dog.

Lovely. Then when mine playbows in return and crushes the poor toy dog with a misplaced paw, whos to blame?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Last reminder to everyone that discussing rep on the forum isn't allowed


Didn't know that sowy


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Goblin said:


> My opinion is that many people's definition of "friendly" may actually be confrontational when looking at dog body language.
> 
> If you are in an on-lead area all dogs should be on-lead and it's the off-lead's dogs owner who is being irresponsible so we'll have to agree to disagree.


I agree that if you are in a specific 'on lead' area, then all owners should obey the rules.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I really cannot be bothered to read all the posts, got stuck on page 8. But I do think it quite ridiculous to think that a small or a giant breed are going to inflict the same damage - all other things being equal. Obviously a very nasty toy breed in attack mode is going to inflict more damage than a giant breed that snaps vaguely at another dog. But a toy dog in attack mode is going to inflict virtually no damage compared to a bigger dog in attack mode. Surely that is common sense. And yes, by some freak accident the toy dog could give a fatal bite - but just as likely it would when playing tbh.

I think a lot of it comes down to common courtesy rather than actual dog attacks. They are two totally different things. A dog that attacks another dog to the extent of killing it or damaging it very badly is not a safe dog to have around other dogs regardless of provocation. But then a lot of people on here seem to think it acceptable for a child to be killed or badly injured if they provoked the dog in the first place.
We keep our dogs in an environment where they are not allowed to behave in such a way and if we allow them to then the dog will often have to pay the penalty. Surely that is fair, why should other people's dogs or children have to pay the penalty!

There is no need for a new law in Scotland and shortly I am sure the English law will be the same. And no, 2 dogs having a scrap will not result in the least damaged one being pts. If you read the link I put up it looks like the owner will be told to muzzle the dog, possibly take it to classes etc. It if it is a repeat offender then it will be removed - so an accidental fight is not going to result in anyone losing their dog but the sort of dogs members on here are always moaning about may well either be kept under control in future or removed if the owner refuses to control it.
What is wrong with that.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Obviously a very nasty toy breed in attack mode is going to inflict more damage than a giant breed that snaps vaguely at another dog. But a toy dog in attack mode is going to inflict virtually no damage compared to a bigger dog in attack mode. Surely that is common sense. And yes, by some freak accident the toy dog could give a fatal bite - but just as likely it would when playing tbh.


Potential of damage exists however and agression should never be excused simply as it's a small dog and unlikely to cause damage. All dogs should be treated equally, as you said using common courtesy. You'll find the discussion was more about restricting punishment to only those dogs which "cause emergency vet attention". Aggression is aggression no matter how likely actual physical damage is. If I run my car into a lorry, it's not the lorry's fault if my car is a write off which is effectively what someone was pushing for.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Whenever I hear the idea that its okay for a friendly dog to run up to a leashed dog, I think of this video:
> 
> Off leash dog compassion- dog training - YouTube
> 
> Just not cool to let you dog run up to ANY leashed dog.


That's one video the cretin I encountered in the park this morning should watch. They had a spaniel puppy off lead and no desire or ability to control it. Just wondered around texting letting it run up to all sundry a few hundred metres away at some points completely out of site including the pavement by the main road. I did tell them to put the dog on the lead as I didn't want it coming near my dogs, which it had already done causing one of mine to lunge at it before it nearly tripped up a passing jogger. Naturally when told, it was my problem and I should walk my dogs elsewhere and that it had never come up to my dogs, which was complete bs. I'd been watching their dog more than they had. I feel sorry for the little dog as it just looks like an accident waiting to happen with either another dog or traffic.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I won't be signing. I do not want my dogs life to hang in the balance if he retaliates to an attack by a much smaller dog and causes a great deal of harm. Which he could well do without even needing to bite. Rupert once caused serious damage to a dog who attacked him yet he escaped serious injury himself, why should he be the one considered at fault when he was only defending himself? You can not use injury sustained to say who was at fault or whether a dog is aggressive, it's just not that black and white.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

I would not hold your breath, waiting for England and Wales to follow N.I and Scotland, in making dog -v- dog attacks a criminal offence.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I won't be signing. I do not want my dogs life to hang in the balance if he retaliates to an attack by a much smaller dog and causes a great deal of harm. Which he could well do without even needing to bite. Rupert once caused serious damage to a dog who attacked him yet he escaped serious injury himself, why should he be the one considered at fault when he was only defending himself? You can not use injury sustained to say who was at fault or whether a dog is aggressive, it's just not that black and white.


Beautifully, succinctly put.

This is why the conversation sounds like a big dog vs. toy dog debate, but its not. Its that those of us with big dogs know how these things go. Little dog starts something, big dog retaliates, big dog ends up being the bad guy.

Sure, ideally your dog wouldnt retaliate. Personally I have worked very hard to have 4 large and giant dogs who are now completely non-reactive to dogs on leash or otherwise. But I also have available to me several, different, top notch trainers, their non-reactive dogs to practice with, plenty of safe areas to train and exercise. Not everyone has this kind of support, experience, and expertise at their fingertips.

And it still begs the question - why is the onus all on the large dog owners to have their dogs behave? Why is it considered valid to excuse aggressive behavior in small dogs because they cant do any significant damage?

The way the petition is written, attack is not clearly defined. On this thread the criteria has been presented that an attack is where a dog requires emergency veterinary treatment. I have an issue with that. This implies that its okay for a smaller dog to launch itself at my dog, snarl, snap, bite etc, but so long as there are no injuries that require my dog to need veterinary treatment, the attack is okay? Nope. I dont think so.

My 80 pound dog was attacked by a yorkie in the ring at a dog show. My dog didnt have a mark on him, yet the yorkie was excused from the ring and the show for aggression. Because despite the lack of blood, it was very much an attack and very much 100% inappropriate, inexcusable behavior, wholly unprovoked. (My dog was in a down-stay, looking at me, not even looking at the yorkie.) FTR, the dogs owner apologized profusely including saying I hope this doesnt cause any problems for your dog. Which as a dog savvy owner she knows can happen after an attack - even without physical injuries.

And while my guys are pretty tolerant, exactly how much should they have to put up with before someone does something about the dog barking in his face that supposedly cant do any significant damage? Or in that video I posted with the golden, what if that loose golden were a yorkie and the leashed, fearful dog were a St. Bernard?


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

sorry I saw this post after I wrote MY rant about dog attacks.

My dog got attacked or attempt to attack by a little chichuahua .

My point of my rant was that If my dog attacked back no doubt my dog would get the blame. 

Creating the perfect law is difficult because unless there is a inpartial expert there at the time you will never know what really happened.

I mean I have a black big(ish) dog .. people find black dogs scary and a little chi very cute.

third party is more likely to vote for the chi in court.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My small dog was ragged whilst onlead by a bigger dog. There was no way it was his fault as the other dog just ran down the hill to get to him. If that had been my yorkie she would be dead. I just wish people would be more careful and aware from both sides and look after their dogs properly.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I dont think size matters. If you have a little toy dog that is aggressive to other dogs, then the same applies.

My offlead dog would NOT react to an aggressive dog, little or not. She would retreat to my side. She wouldnt snap at an aggressor. I am therefore confident that any puppies/young dogs jumping on her will not result in any harm to them, moreso she would want to join in and play with them. 

DA dogs should be on a lead, no matter the size if you are unable to control them.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> My small dog was ragged whilst onlead by a bigger dog. There was no way it was his fault as the other dog just ran down the hill to get to him. If that had been my yorkie she would be dead. I just wish people would be more careful and aware from both sides and look after their dogs properly.


I'm so glad your dog survived when they were attacked. and i agree all dog owners should be in control of their dogs. I dont' think anyone is saying it's acceptable, but there seems to be a " sub-culture" of small dog owners that find it cute/ funny/ harmless when their dogs charge over to larger dogs or no one would have heard phrases like " haha he thinks he's a rottie! " people posting on here are more likely to be "proper" dog people and to fully appreciate their responsibities to be a responsible dog owner.

Within this thread, as the owner of a medium dog I have described incidents we have had with dogs both, large and small. What i haven't expressed clearly enough was that the physical injuries Tink sustained were largely healed within a fortnight, the mental/pschological damage has taken 2 years+ A small dog can inflict this type of damage just as easily as a larger one,particularly when the larger one is in their formative periods, but it's quite possible at any time if this type of behaviour is encountered frequently and repeatedly.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2012)

chichi said:


> I have never seen a DA Chihuahua. Ive seen yappy ones but muzzling isnt necessary for barking or half the dogs in the Country would be muzzled when out.
> 
> It always makes me die on these threads when people bring up DA Chis.....sure they would be a nuisance...maybe even give a nasty bite but I very much doubt your average Chi is going to kill or seriously hurt any dog larger than themselves.....even if they tried. Chis...by and large. ...are mouthy if anything. The majority have enough sense not to get physical with a larger dog. For the record 99 per cent of the time my lot are on lead when out....because of irresponsible owners of other dogs.


Okay, I feel like I can respond to this post now 
Chichi, this is exactly why you get the response you do on these kinds of threads. The above, when I read it, sounds like you are saying its okay for a dog the size of a chihuahua to be barky (mouthy to me means using teeth on fur/skin, Im going to assume you did not mean that). It sounds like youre saying its okay for a dog the size of a chihuahua to be a nuisance with their barking and even okay for them to TRY to injure another dog.

Heres why its not okay for a dog the size of a chihuahua to behave that way. Even if they dont do damage to the other dog, they are seriously endangering themselves!! NO dog should have to put up with a dog barking in their face regardless of the size of the dog barking!

A trainer friend of mine has a rare breed tiny dog. This dog has been socialized out the wazoo, trained in good manners, and has really awesome dog skills. She manages to de-escalate over-excited dogs so they dont hurt her, she knows when and how to correct dogs who are playing too rough with her, and because of all this, she is MUCH better off and MUCH safer than most dogs her size around big dogs.

If I had a tiny dog this is exactly what I would do. I would work overtime to ensure that my tiny dog does NOT endanger himself around other dogs because of poor behavior. And frankly, I would never let my little dog run loose in an area where they might encounter other off-leash dogs I didnt know. (But then again, in my area, the greater danger to loose little dogs is birds of prey.)

The bottom line is that we all have a responsibility to train and socialize our dogs regardless of size, and to know what they can and cant handle, and to manage them appropriately.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

Agree on the above 2 posts.

Perry is just over a year,.. he has always been bigger than a Chi!
Dogs barking in his ears when he is a puppy what will that teach him?
Perry is laid back. In his case where the chi got attacked both were on the lead,.. me keeping Perry short and they did not make any attempt to pull their chi away. 

I keep Perry short as I did not want his ankles bitten,. and I do not want to risk him thinking that he had enough so lets attack back. that is my responsability.

The only thing I saw from the other side was provoking and provoking. and laughter from the kids (+/-16yr) 

Though if Perry wasnt laid back,.. I think a bit of pull power and he could have had that chi! 

we had to pass those kids. A dog is a dog no matter what size and a chi barking and trying to attack could teach Perry what nasty little dogs they could be (not saying they are) but do you see a pattern? little dogs that attack where the big dogs get the blame,.. or big dogs that attack ,.. on both cases the big dogs get the same treatment.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

hushtalk said:


> Agree on the above 2 posts.
> 
> Perry is just over a year,.. he has always been bigger than a Chi!
> Dogs barking in his ears when he is a puppy what will that teach him?
> ...


I cannot, for the life of me, understand why owners allow their kids to walk dogs. Even if its a little dog, kids would not know what to do or how to handle a situation that could arise. And yes, these arsey little kids who are cheeky and think winding you or you dog up is a joke, have no place being responsible for dogs.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> I cannot, for the life of me, understand why owners allow their kids to walk dogs.


Ive already addressed this on another thread, but I dont have an issue with kids walking trained dogs while under adult supervision. Mine do all the time.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

It's not just aggression tiny dogs are at risk from. An excited, friendly dog bouncing around could kill them. Spen ran over a Chi while playing with another dog and injured its leg. No aggression involved at all, just a dog not looking where he was going. Had he stepped on the Chis back that accident could well have been fatal as it was for a Peke I knew.

And as Moonviolet says, it's not just physical damage that matters. The psychological damage from an attack can be much longer lasting and much more severe in the long run than the physical damage. Rupert never suffered a serious injury from a dog attacking him yet he became absolutely terrified of strange dogs and we never overcame that fear.



> DA dogs should be on a lead, no matter the size if you are unable to control them.


ANY dog should be on a leash no matter the size if you are unable to control it.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

chichi said:


> Bring in the legislation and let the courts decide who is at fault and who isnt. Might make some of those irresponsible owners that let their DA aggressive dogs offlead think twice.


LMAO Would that be the same kinda courts that were dealing with Lennox? Pathetic


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> LMAO Would that be the same kinda courts that were dealing with Lennox? Pathetic


Do you think that dog owners who are not in control of their dogs are above the law.....if your out of control dog attacks another dog....seriously injuring it...or worse.....there should be consequences....regardless of breed...size or anything else.

Lennox is absolutely nothing to do with this topic. ....love it when people talk [email protected] and then call others pathetic. ...


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

I won't be signing the petition. Things are not black and white when it comes to dog on dog attacks.

My Rott loves all other dogs and plays with them brilliantly but he IS NEVER allowed to approach dogs we don't know or on lead dogs unless I have cleared it with the owner first and I deem the other dog to be an acceptable playmate. 

My Dane rarely goes off lead with strange dogs because he can be reactive to them if they get snarly. He never used to be this way - it is since he was ambushed by 5 out of control ESS not long after we got him. They launched at him when he was offlead and literally launched an attack. They didn't do him much physical damage but this incident scared the crap out of him and has definately made him reactive to other dogs . 

It's not a small dog/big dog issue - it's whether the owner recognises that they have a DA dog (which they often don't seem to) and whether or not they have any control over them when offlead (which they also don't often seem to).

Last year I was walking my Dane in a local park when a woman walking 3 tiny dogs saw us and made a beeline for us. She then proceeded to let her 3 off lead (who were going nuts and snarling at my dog) and they ran straight for us. Poor Jensen was picking up his feet and prancing about like a dressage pony whilst the small dogs snapped at his legs and tried to bite his face :yikes:

I yelled at the woman to get control of her dogs NOW and she responded by LAUGHING and saying "look at them have a go -brave little things!" 

My response to this (minus expletives) was that I was glad her dogs were so brave because I was going to let mine offlead and we'd soon see how brave they were then - along with a well aimed kick at one of her dogs.

She got them back on lead then, muttering about my "monster" dog calling me all the b!tches under the sun and retreated to her car.

Now, this didn't happen because her dogs were small, it happened because she was a moron. However, that sort of behaviour IS NOT helpful when you're working your arse off to rehab a fearful dog.

If my Dane had grabbed and shaken one of her dogs would he deserve to be PTS for that?? I certainly don't think so. Would he if he had killed it? Again I don't think so. To his credit he didn't lay a tooth on them but if he had it would have been self defence as far as i'm concerned.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> I won't be signing the petition. Things are not black and white when it comes to dog on dog attacks.
> 
> My Rott loves all other dogs and plays with them brilliantly but he IS NEVER allowed to approach dogs we don't know or on lead dogs unless I have cleared it with the owner first and I deem the other dog to be an acceptable playmate.
> 
> ...


100% agree with this.

My dog is small but an even smaller yorkie x chi had a go at her a few times  He would run up to her and snap at her legs or neck when she was on lead. 
One day she had enough of him and this resulted in turning around, catching him and pulling a bit of his hair out.

Now if Lucky was bigger and stronger she could have really hurt him, then she would have been seen at fault.

No dog, big or small has the right to have a go at other dogs. Whether that's snapping at them or barking in their face. It's rude and quite frankly a big p*as off for other dog owners who are trying to have a peaceful walk.


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## rottiemum (Apr 12, 2011)

Goldstar said:


> 100% agree with this.
> 
> My dog is small but an even smaller yorkie x chi had a go at her a few times  He would run up to her and snap at her legs or neck when she was on lead.
> One day she had enough of him and this resulted in turning around, catching him and pulling a bit of his hair out.
> ...


Me too. Agree with both posts.

And this one addresses a point I haven't seen yet - what if the small aggressive dog attacks another small dog?? So far it's all been 'if a small dog attacks a big dog'.

I won't get into the whole thing as pretty much everything has been said already - but it is incredibly rude to let an off lead dog run up to an on lead dog. And dangerous, as that on lead dog might be on the lead for a reason - like it's owner is trying to be responsible with their reactive or DA dog...


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## aoifeturner (Sep 29, 2012)

Goldstar said:


> 100% agree with this.
> 
> My dog is small but an even smaller yorkie x chi had a go at her a few times  He would run up to her and snap at her legs or neck when she was on lead.
> One day she had enough of him and this resulted in turning around, catching him and pulling a bit of his hair out.
> ...


I haven't written the petition targeting a certain kind or size of dog. also action will be taken against irresponsible owners not just the dogs.

People seemed to take what they like and dont like from the petition and make a whole new one up


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Is not going to make me sign it. Irresponsible owners are pretty much always to blame, not the dogs.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2012)

aoifeturner said:


> I haven't written the petition targeting a certain kind or size of dog. also action will be taken against irresponsible owners not just the dogs.
> 
> People seemed to take what they like and dont like from the petition and make a whole new one up


Aoife, can you answer my questions at the beginning of the thread? Ill repost so you dont have to slog through the whole thing 



ouesi said:


> How do you define an attack?
> How do you define a violent dog?
> Does the behavior of the dog who was attacked matter?
> 
> ...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

aoifeturner said:


> People seemed to take what they like and dont like from the petition and make a whole new one up


Which gives some indication that it does not serve it's purpose.

If you missed it Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act Information - New dog law passed in Scotland is in Scotland. Would you agree if also adopted in the UK it would also cover what you actually want. If so doesn't it make more sense to push for this?

Key point:


> c) the individuals alarm or apprehensive is, in all the circumstances, reasonable.
> 
> The new law adds further meaning to the apprehensiveness and states that this may be as to-
> 
> ...


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

chichi said:


> Do you think that dog owners who are not in control of their dogs are above the law.....if your out of control dog attacks another dog....seriously injuring it...or worse.....there should be consequences....regardless of breed...size or anything else.
> 
> Lennox is absolutely nothing to do with this topic. ....love it when people talk [email protected] and then call others pathetic. ...


However you stated in previous posts that's its not as bad for small breeds to be all mouthy and yappy because they can't do the damage that a big dog can. Sorry but any bite, small or big can be serious especially if it leads to infection.

Small out of control dogs are a serious nightmare, even Sam has been bitten numerous times by them since I got him. But owners of these toy breeds seem to think its funny because apparently their little dog "thinks its big"  and to them it looks funny when their little rats are snapping at my boys legs. 

Lastly, Lennox has everything to do with this case since your post said we ought to bring in legislation and then let the courts decide. Will the cases then be adjudicated by a pet forum members? NO. Will it be judged by a special panel of dogs that will listen to the defendant and the victim? NO. It will however by decided by a panel of out of touch humans who have proved by the Lennox case that they do not have the feintest clue about dogs and will by any means necessary have a certain type of dog put down based on just its looks.

Do you honestly believe a small dog that attacks other dogs will be treated the same in a court of law as a large dog? Its pretty laughable and 'pathetic' if you do.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

aoifeturner said:


> I haven't written the petition targeting a certain kind or size of dog. also action will be taken against irresponsible owners not just the dogs.
> 
> People seemed to take what they like and dont like from the petition and make a whole new one up


I'm not interested in signing the petition regardless


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Much of who is to blame in a dog on dog attack is in the eye of the beholder. 

Here is another reason why i won't sign your petition....

The dog that attacked mine was out of sight of it's owner. when he came into sight and pulled his dog off mine ( this increased her injuries from puncture wounds to a large flap of skin and tissue) My dog was snarling and screaming until she was free when she ran without even attempting to retaliate even though the other dog was restrained.

When eventually the owner of thsi dog was located. HIs side of the story was that my dog mst have provoked his dog because she was snarling. What had actually happened was his dogs had stratled both myself and my dog jumping off a bracken cover bank , SHe had scuttled in a non -dog like manner and one of his dogs went straight for her throat. A predatory drift attack. 

Had this gone down the criminal route who's story would you be more inclined to believe? that of the police officer who claimed his dog must have been provoked, as we've all seen how small dogs get in the face of larger ones or the ordinary person with little experience of courts and legal proceedings.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

once again my rottie was attacked last night by a tiny dog, im not sure what breed it was but it was really small! we was walking past it and it just exploded once the owner had picked it up she turned around and said the famous line 
"your all mouth that big dog would eat you alive" and yet it was her dog that was snapping at my dogs feet! to which my rottie shi* himself as hes a big baby. i hate it when owners of small dogs make that comment when its their dog trying to harm mine! jokers!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> However you stated in previous posts that's its not as bad for small breeds to be all mouthy and yappy because they can't do the damage that a big dog can. Sorry but any bite, small or big can be serious especially if it leads to infection.
> 
> Small out of control dogs are a serious nightmare, even Sam has been bitten numerous times by them since I got him. But owners of these toy breeds seem to think its funny because apparently their little dog "thinks its big"  and to them it looks funny when their little rats are snapping at my boys legs.
> 
> ...


Lennox is absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing here....Lennox died as the direct result of breed specific legislation...which I ABSOLUTELY disagree with! What I want is people that wont take responsibility for their dogs FORCED to think twice that if the DA dog owners allow (for that is what they are doing....allowing their dogs to attack other dogs....if they know their dogs can be dangerous to other dogs) their dogs to run free....often endangering lives and certainly the safety of other dogs in the area.

And for the VERY LAST TIME......please understand that I have never said that ANY dog should be allowed to be aggressive...attack...frighten...hurt or any other form of
threatening or aggressive behaviour...just that a small dog is very much less likely to kill or seriously injure a large breed (except for a freak event where maybe an artery could be severed by a sharp tooth and such like).

And for the record....please dont judge all small dog owners as being flippant about their dogs behaviour....many of us are completely responsible. I take pride in the 
temperaments of my little ones and would be livid if they displayed aggressive behaviour towards any dog.


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## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

chichi said:


> Lennox is absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing here....Lennox died as the direct result of breed specific legislation...which I ABSOLUTELY disagree with! What I want is people that wont take responsibility for their dogs FORCED to think twice that if the DA dog owners allow (for that is what they are doing....allowing their dogs to attack other dogs....if they know their dogs can be dangerous to other dogs) their dogs to run free....often endangering lives and certainly the safety of other dogs in the area.
> 
> And for the VERY LAST TIME......please understand that I have never said that ANY dog should be allowed to be aggressive...attack...frighten...hurt or any other form of
> threatening or aggressive behaviour...just that a small dog is very much less likely to kill or seriously injure a large breed (except for a freak event where maybe an artery could be severed by a sharp tooth and such like).
> ...


having only ever had giant breed dogs i agree that one of mine is goin to do more damage than a little dog its common sense, im not saying larger dogs are more agressive or anything like that but my 10stone rottie is going to do more damage to a little 4lb dog then the other way round. its a fact


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