# Kevin Behan- anyone came across him before?



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I've just watched three You Tube videos of Kevin Behan describing his 'Immediate Moment' theory (the links are at the bottom). The videos are taken from an episode of Quantum Canine (never heard of it...) and gives an alternative to the dominance hierarchy theory- or, more accurately, aims to completely disprove it. 

Has anyone came across this? As a quick summary, Behan sees behaviour as a result of different instinctual 'energies'. In wolf packs, he describes the hunting as the principle reason packs forms (and uses an interesting description of coyote social behaviour to prove his point). So, the hunt is a moment of intensive energy between predators and prey- all the dogs want the prey and the energy that explodes whilst they are chasing prey is a result of mounting stress and desire. In opposition to the dominance hierarchy theory, he implies something very similar to the Resource Holding Potential that Bradshaw et al (2009) proposed, which is basically that canines are living in the moment and the individual that gets a resource is _the one that wants it and needs it the most_. So whilst people would think that the Alpha dog leads a hunt and eats first because he's the Alpha, it is more that that dog has the largest desire and wants the prey the most and, thus, the other members will happily use his desire and follow behind. Obviously, the members have desire too though.

There's a clip of dog play in the second part that Behan analyses, which is intriguing, but nothing completely new I don't think. There's a female, adult GSD and a young male Labrador. The Lab is playful and showing what would be called 'appeasement' behaviours and the GSD is quite stiff and tense initially, performing displacement behaviours like shake-offs when the first meeting is interrupted. Many old-style trainers would see the GSD as the dominant individual because the Lab is showing appeasement behaviours. People like Dunbar would flip it and say that the Lab is deferring to reduce the chances of any hostility and to 'calm' the tense GSD down.

However, Behan talks about how the Lab is acting prey like- the Lab proceeds to hump around, lie down, roll a bit- and the GSD is being 'paralysed' in the sense of a predator freezing when they see prey. This part seems a little sticky and not too clear, but I can see what he's getting at. Anyway, the GSD eventually loosens up and offers reciprocal play, which Behan describes as 'polarity', as the roles of prey and predator reverse as the GSD becomes more prey like and playful.

It's quite interesting, although seems very advanced and in its early stages.

YouTube - Quantum Canine Episode 1, No Such Thing as Dominance (Part 1)
YouTube - Natural Dog Training Quantum Canine No Such Thing as Dominance Part 2 (Part 2)
YouTube - Natural Dog Training Quantum Canine No Such Thing as Dominance Part 3 (Part 3)


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Yes and he pretty much denies the existence of learning, behaviourism and operant principles.

Anytime 'energies' is used to describe things I begin to fade out and my eyes glaze over 
There is nothing new here really, just more mystic energies etc.

Parsimony is our friend and there are certainly simpler, more evidence backed and grounded ways of explaining a lot of this stuff.

Lee Charles Kelly is apparently a proponent of Behans - he blogs at Psychology Today if you want more.
In all fairness some of LCK's stuff denouncing dominance hoo-ha is pretty good.

Just my two cents - where is L4L when we need her


----------



## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

tripod said:


> Yes and he pretty much denies the existence of learning, behaviourism and operant principles.
> 
> Anytime 'energies' is used to describe things I begin to fade out and my eyes glaze over
> There is nothing new here really, just more mystic energies etc.
> ...


Ah, I did wonder about that. I quite liked his analysis of the play behaviour in that the dogs were mirroring a predator-prey scenario, but his energy thing was all a bit sticky!

Thanks for the info


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

But his description of play is totally not original although its presented as something mystical and novel. Play involves the four Fs - fighting, fleeing, feeding and reproduction 

Play can be viewed in both prey and predatory species as ritualised hunting - young prey species practice running away and such escape behaviours while young preador species practice chasing and such hunting behaviour.

Play is also an amazing cooperative sequence of behaviour elicited by complex meta-signaling so as to keep everything cool and collected. Play is heavily studied in a wide variety of animals and Behan's wishy washy descriptions don't really contribute to our further understanding of these amazing behavioural repertoires.


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Be fair to the poor guy, Behan needed a new angle if he wants anyone to fund his work. There are only so many ways to write up what science has proved/disproved before you resort to the airy fairy to make it different:lol:


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

:lol: yeah don't think Behan is into peer review etc  It appears that talk of energies and all that stuff sells well in dog training


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

While not as harmful as other trainers, Behan pushes a kind of idiocy I've never come across. A sort of magical thinking that does a disservice to dog s with an weird anthropocentric slant that doesn't make any sense.

A major claim Behan makes is that dogs CANNOT THINK. They cannot learn and that there is only ONE EMOTION. Also fear does not exist. And as a final insult all biologists in his new book he writes



> Dogs evolved to resolve unresolved emotion because resolving unresolved emotion is how natures evolves



and for those who ever studied anatomy and know where the brain is located



> This region (gut/loin) constitutes the nucleus of a dog's sense of self


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

tripod said:


> Yes and he pretty much denies the existence of learning, behaviourism and operant principles.
> 
> Anytime 'energies' is used to describe things I begin to fade out and my eyes glaze over
> There is nothing new here really, just more mystic energies etc.
> ...


Funny thing about LCK, if you post something that disagrees with Behan, he tends to delete it. It's happened to me and to 3 other people I know of.

Behan is even more censorious in his own cite, nothing but bubbleheads are allowed.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

I get the impression you are not taking Mr Behan seriously, and I was just about to trade in my clicker for a crystal!

Meanwhile, back in the real world, people don't want to know about their dogs energies or auras, they want to know why their dog won't come when they call it or why it always eats their left shoe. Such things are easily explained by using the equally mystical art of common sense, now if someone were to write a book based on that theory, then I for one would certanly buy it.


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I get the impression you are not taking Mr Behan seriously, and I was just about to trade in my clicker for a crystal!
> 
> Meanwhile, back in the real world, *people don't want to know about their dogs energies or auras*, they want to know why their dog won't come when they call it or why it always eats their left shoe. Such things are easily explained by using the equally mystical art of common sense, now if someone were to write a book based on that theory, then I for one would certanly buy it.


Mia hasn't had an 'aura' since I stopped feeding her dry food :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Oh. I was going to click on the links until you mentioned "energies" - then I thought "Nah, I won't."


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

What you're describing is body language. If you're relaxed, your body language will be relaxed. If you're not, it won't - unless you can train yourself to fake it, which is possible.

I just find "energies" is a bit pretentious and misleading, not to mention unnecessary - the phrase "body language" is perfectly adequate, and a lot more accurate as to what's actually happening.


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

.......coming back to Kevin Behan though, energies apart, I have heard good things about his "Pushing" technique.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Elledee, energies are not taken seriously by me in this context because the term is bandied about and can never be proven or disproven - just too convenient for me.

Brain waves can be measured, their existence can be proven and their impacts on the organism is something that is measureable.

The two are not one in teh same nor are they comparable. Why use teh term 'energies', which has all sorts of connotations attached, when there are acceptable, parsiminous ones that fit to describe what you refer to.

I find the use of such terms, in such a context, to be cynical tbh.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

You personally can use any word you like. 
BUT if you are describing or giving advice terms chosen must be clear, concise, precise and yes parsimony is important especially when discussing something studied in science (e.g. behaviour, emotion, cognition etc.). 
Although I don't think that is the goal in this case.

If giving advice or presenting yourself in such a light that people will likely take advice from you, then it is very important that your points are given as clearly as possible. This is important from ethical reponsibility as well as legal.
If someone presents themselves as a professional I feel it is vital that clarity and precision are a priority when giving advice.


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

elledee said:


> The Beta brainwave can be associated with the state of fear, and is different yet again. It would, I imagine, be very difficult to "fake" the activity of your brainwaves, and I think dogs are sensitive enough to pick up on them.


Just how do you propose a dog picks that up. It has all the same organs we have, so which organ do you suggest picks up brain waves - really very weak electrical signals that are biochemically generated.

Parsimony (simplest explanation) was already mentioned, and 'body language is a better explanation - and to top it off we can instruct people on it. As you realize, controlling your own brain waves is not an easy feat to accomplish. It can tell you to stop fidgeting and move slowly and deliberately or not to loom over the dog

Here is an easy explanation of how brain waves are detected. As you can see, it is not easy and requires sensitive equipment that must detect 10 - 100 millionth of a volt... immediately at the scalp.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> I've just watched three You Tube videos of Kevin Behan... [snip]
> Has anyone came across this? As a quick summary, Behan sees behaviour as a result of different instinctual 'energies'.


oh, heavens - yes. 
 would i spend time & *my energy* learning more? No - i'd invest effort elsewhere.

Behan's woo-woo concept is that dogs frame everything they do as a predatory pattern - of course, 
the facts are not allowed to trouble his conceptual analysis, like the fact that dogs who are not owned or fed 
are not predators of large animals, running as packs, but are scavengers digging in Dumpsters & ripping into 
trash-bags on garbage day. Inconvenient facts are not allowed to derail his megalomanic idea!

he uses prong-collars & choke-chains, has been known to hoist dogs, & also thinks shock-collars are fine tools. 
i would avoid him like the plague, myself. But of course, this is my own ignorant personal opinion - 
i have never played the '*moose*' for a dog, :lol: what do i know?...

he & LCK / Lee Chs Kelley are Bobbsey-twins, they prop one another up with 4-star book-reviews on Amazon; 
LCK says Behan is a miracle-worker, Behan says LCK is a brilliant novelist :lol: 
i read 2 of LCK's novels, & could not finish the second; normally when there's nothing else to read, i will stoop 
to can-labels or Harlequin romances, but even i could not stomach an overdose of LCK. : 
thankfully, it was a library book; if i had bought it, i would have felt much, much more ill.

LCK's theoretical maunderings about dogs in his novels are even more-painful than the novel's plots & characters; 
he gets really basic stuff so wrong, it makes me wince reflexively.

as for his Psych-Today on-line-mag blogs, they have so many twists & turns in their pretzel-logic, it's the mental 
equivalent of staying aboard a roller-coaster that can do a full Mobius-strip inversion, not once but repeatedly - 
U get headaches & nausea.  Don't go there unless U are wide-awake, it's daylight, & U are not eating a meal - 
_*reading LCK or Behan before bed, is IMO a very bad idea; terrible dreams of illogic will trouble Ur sleep.*_


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> A major claim Behan makes is that dogs CANNOT THINK. They cannot learn and that there is only ONE EMOTION.
> Also fear does not exist. And as a final insult all biologists in his new book he writes
> Dogs evolved to resolve unresolved emotion because resolving unresolved emotion is how natures evolves


i did not know that dogs cannot think at all, in Behan's gospel - gee, think we should let the k9-cognition labs know? 
:lol: it's also interesting that *fear*, the single most primitive & essential of all emotions, serving a vital 
purpose to keep the organism alive, does not exist in dogs; how did the first proto-dogs survive to have offspring?!

what ONE EMOTION is there, in the gospel according to Behan? [please don't tell me i have to read it for myself - 
i have read more than enuf already, i just want the Cliff's Notes version, it's less painful.  ]

that conundrum with the un-resolved emotion thing can give me a tension headache, just reading it twice or thrice 
and attempting to parse the bloody thing... 


Corinthian said:


> ...and for those who ever studied anatomy and know where the brain is located -
> This region (gut/loin) constitutes the nucleus of a dogs sense of self


WoW - that's quite boggling, all by itself. :blink: i have to go to bed soon, it's nearly 2-am - 
i need to detox, first! i'll read _The Tomorrow File_ for a while, that will serve as antivenom.


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh dear.......As a very sensitive person myself, I have learnt that if you want to give an opinion on here you have to expect others to disagree with it. 
If you have an opinion or way of thinking that the majority of people would find hard to take on any subject then you have to be extra prepared to accept strong feelings against it.

With the best will in the world MOST, obviously not all, will accept a tried and tested scientific approach in most things whether they personally agree with the theory or not.

You will find a very much smaller audience will accept theory on things you can't quantify.

Of course many of us feel that there is an emotional connection between us and our dogs. But that is based on knowing them so well, knowing how they react and likening it to human emotions because thats the way we can understand it best.

You will still find that the vast majority will use their gut feelings about their own particular dogs in conjunction with scientific/measurable methods and theories.

Yes things change and ideas are put forward, tried and then sometimes disgarded as more knowledge comes to light.

Most theory is based on good ideas and will have some merit. Unfortunately when you add a personal slant that most people would dismiss BECAUSE it can't be tested or proven you blow the whole thing.

You are entitled to your opinion but it is unreasonable to promote it and expect others to accept it if you can't show them in any concrete way that it is valid.


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> he uses prong-collars & choke-chains, has been known to hoist dogs, & also thinks shock-collars are fine tools.
> i would avoid him like the plague, myself. But of course, this is my own ignorant personal opinion -
> i have never played the '*moose*' for a dog, :lol: what do i know?...


In Behan's world, when you choke or jerk a dog by the prong collar, you are (in his words) "energizing" him and switching his "polarity" Just goes to show that people will invent any justification as long as they can whack a dog.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

BTW, Cory - 


Corinthian said:


> ...and for those who ever studied anatomy and know where the brain is located -
> "This region (gut/loin) constitutes the nucleus of a dogs sense of self " (Behan)


has anyone told the Dawg-Wrassler that he is 'tapping' the dog in the nucleus? :lol:

this was never mentioned in my Bio, Anatomy/Physiology, or Behavior classes - U'd think they'd caution U, 
_'When bathing or grooming a dog, be very mindful of the nucleus...'_, but not a word.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> In Behan's world, when you choke or jerk a dog by the prong collar, you are (in his words) "energizing" [the dog]
> and switching [their] "polarity" Just goes to show that people will invent any justification [to] can whack a dog.


WoW :blink: if just jerking a constricting collar 'energizes' a dog or switches their 'polarity', what in Heaven's name 
does using an actual shock-collar do, which *has* electrical-energy & *has* charged poles?...

the poor dogs! - it must blow their circuits altogether. :yikes: yikes.


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

WTF has happened to all the posts on this thread from a certain poster with a name that sounds like 'LD', I spent time and trouble responding to the hissy fit this morning and it's gone!!!!!!!!
I won't even try and be reasonable next time :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> he & LCK / Lee Chs Kelley are Bobbsey-twins, they prop one another up with 4-star book-reviews on Amazon;


Yes, you are right. The amazon 'reviews' are completely dishonest. "Laszlito" for example is the person who writes "Bad Dog Laszlo" blog and is promoted in Behan's website. I also think that the 'Seattle Dog Lover' gets promotion on his website. And as you metion, LCK and Behan cross promote so their reviews are questionable.

I also note that of a total 8 reviews, 6 of the reviewers have reviewed ONLY Behan, the 7th included his other books as well as Sattin who is a Behan clone.

Call me cynical, but this looks like a coordinated effort to boost his customer ratings.

I'm going to have to write an honest review, to make up for all these promotions pretending to be reviews.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> WTF has happened to all the posts on this thread from a certain poster with a name that sounds like 'LD', I spent time and trouble responding to the hissy fit this morning and it's gone!!!!!!!!
> I won't even try and be reasonable next time :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


always quote the apropos segments - or if need be, the whole enchilada. 

the poster can delete *their* posts - they cannot delete *Ur* replies or quoted portions of their own, 
within the reply.

in this instance, i can only conclude that *elledee* must have felt outnumbered like a single soccer-fan, 
whoops, i mean footie-fan, and worried we might become hooligans & start cracking skulls - 
the only skull *I* crack is my own, when i try to wrap my poor brain around some DoG-awful concept 
and fail in the attempt, but * elledee * must have thought there was some sort of concerted effort? :huh:

it's not true - there is no ANTI-fan-*club* 'against' so-and-so, we each came to our conclusions alone, 
it's sheer happenstance that all of us are on the same Forum - sheesh, i'm in Va, USA, how would i co-ordinate 
a mass-movement, or even know who else knows about Behan, who's in New England somewhere?

come to think of it, if Behan had lived in New Mexico when his inspiration struck, we might see T-shirts saying, 
*'Be the pronghorn.'...*  Setting can make all the difference, eh?


----------



## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> the poster can delete *their* posts - they cannot delete *Ur* replies or quoted portions of their own,
> within the reply.


I think you may have spoilt my fun telling me that......there are so many times that I have posted something and regretted it later. Now I know that I can delete it there's no fun in looking back at what a diddelo I can be :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The hissy fit by elledee from earler really should have been kept for posterity, I wish I had quoted it now.

OOOOPs I can feel a delete before a moderator tells me off


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> The hissy fit by elledee from earler really should have been kept for posterity,
> I wish I had quoted it now.


*elledee* has pulled all of her/his posts, & departed the Forum - at least temporarily. 
http://tinyurl.com/6483z5x

it's a shame people cannot disagree, without feeling they're the victim of a personal assault - 
i *have* disagreed, and i am sure i *shall* disagree, even with folks i often agree with; 
but i am not departing for a hole in the ground. And BTW i have been targeted several times by genuine 
personal assaults, with name-calling etc, that had zip to do with the subject at hand - 
there was none of that on this thread, it has been about *what the person does* or *what the person says,* 
not 'so-and-so is ______________ .'

disagreeing with someone's behavior, methods or theories is inevitable; i think Victoria Stilwell 
is an enormous improvement over Cesar Millan, but that does not mean i agree with everything 
that she does or says; i wish fervently that we had more than just 2 trainers on the boob-tube, 
*i would love to see the former 'Outdoor-Life Channel' now SPIKE-tv AKA the man-cave, run a gundog training 
series with the co-authors of THE POSITIVELY TRAINED GUNDOG - i think it would be brilliant!* :thumbup:

more trainers, with more reward-based, modern, humane methods, would be wonderful. [i'm dreaming - 
but hey, dreams are good.]


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

here is a link to Google's cache of the prior posts - 
Kevin Behan- anyone came across him before? - Page 2 - Pet Forums Community


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> WTF has happened to all the posts on this thread from a certain poster with a name that sounds like 'LD', I spent time and trouble responding to the hissy fit this morning and it's gone!!!!!!!!
> I won't even try and be reasonable next time :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Must have missed all this drama but I did get a PM from this person that confused me but now makes a little more sense, not a lot but a little more


----------



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Here it is for those that are interested



elledee said:


> I seem to have a different view from the others on this thread re energies. Any discussion of them doesn't make my eyes glaze over, Tripod, I feel this aspect of the relationship between dog and owner/handler is often overlooked. I may not agree with this chap's point of view though, but it does mean I will watch the videos. It is my view that, depending on how people are feeling, they do exude energies - calm, agitated, excited, frustrated, negative, for example - and that these affect their dog. I aim to be calm with my dogs all the time, even the ones that appear to be high drive. In fact, it is a state of mind I try to be in most of the time so that it becomes the default frame of mind, whatever the situation. I am sure that trainers, for example, do take what I consider "energies" into account when working with dogs but perhaps give it a different name. It may be "signals" but, to me, that word implies that this is part of an arsenal of signals and therefore a predetermined action, rather than the normal state of mind.
> 
> I'll give two examples of what I mean.
> 
> ...


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

wow ok thought it was going to be some big deelio


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the *elledee* post which Corinthian put back up was originally #12, right after ColliePoodle said she was not 
interested in watching the videos on 'energies' - then just after what is now post #13, came this: 


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Colliepoodle
> What you're describing is body language. If you're relaxed, your body language will be relaxed. If you're not, it won't - unless you can train yourself to fake it, which is possible.
> I just find "energies" is a bit pretentious and misleading, not to mention unnecessary - the phrase "body language" is perfectly adequate, and a lot more accurate as to what's actually happening.


*elledee* quoted that & continued: 


> originally posted by *elledee -*
> Today, 12:30 PM
> elledee - Pet Forums Junior Member
> Join Date: Mar 2011; Posts: 70
> ...


i thought this was worth quoting, because of the discussion of brainwaves, an exceedingly teeny flow of electricity, 
which is difficult to perceive even with very delicate equipment in a quiet space, & IMO would be impossible among 
all the noisy, abrupt, distracting sensory-input of the real-world.

i think dogs read *emotion* & *intention* just as much as they read body-language - in fact, 
i think one's emotional state is a big determinant of one's success or failure in a given lesson or encounter; 
if i am horribly upset by something before a lesson begins, there is little point in beginning it now, 
i must get myself into some semblance of normalcy - slow my breathing, splash some water on my face, 
stop my hands sweating & shaking - before i am fit to begin working with the dog [or horse, cat, parrot, child...].


----------

