# Covering unethical breeders backs...



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

why is it this forum will cover the backs of backyard breeders  - They request a thread closed once the truth is out, and the forum willing does it. 

That does not help educate the public. 


Disgusting......


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I suppose it's an attempt to avoid conflict, I know it's part of the rules (sure it was when I last peeked at them which is some time ago now) the OP can request a thread be closed, but didn't know they could ask for it to be moved completely. 

The problem is, when it highlights issues for inexperienced folk researching into this subject, if all the questions and answers have been put out of sight, they may make the same mistakes.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree, close a thread by all means; ban a member, remove inflammatory posts etc but don't remove a thread, not when such an important subject has been discussed. It feels like, 'yeh irresponsible Breeder's you're all welcome here and if people challenge what you're doing we'll just make everything disappear for you....'


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Who was this? Staceydawlz thread I saw getting a bit heated then it was gone, is she a byb?


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

no i am not a byb!! yes it got heated because people jump to conclusions!!! im anything but a byb!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I fear this thread will be closed too, but have to agree with Devildogz, I find it strange that a forum will support byb.

No one is going to admit to being a byb and of course, people often think because they care they cannot be byb


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> no i am not a byb!! yes it got heated because people jump to conclusions!!! im anything but a byb!


Yours is the only thread I've noticed that's gone, that's all


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

no rocco i am not a byb...simple continued with saying what you like funny how yous like to pick on people!! feel free to making your threads and causing more trouble but i will stick by my guns i am not a byb!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

by your definition or mine? 

There is nothing that you have said about breeding your bitch that shows you as a responsible breeder.

And I don't pick on people, I just can't stand byb - particularly when it's my breed.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

..by both...


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

why am i bothering to argue against you? i dont know because no matter what you will continue with all the things you feel you have to say and its never ending and in the end im left to back off into a corner its a joke!! thanks for your input, you feel im a byb fair enough i be aswell let you go on with your coments etc


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I fear this thread will be closed too, but have to agree with Devildogz, I find it strange that a forum will support byb.


Why do you find that surprising when Pets4Homes is full of byb's and pf's and is a sistership of this very forum? Some of the ads on there are a disgrace and much worse than anything I have seen so far on this forum and that's saying something!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

TBH Stacey I think people (like me) just get the impression you might not be being 100% honest when the thread just disappears. Last I saw you were having problems with the KC as they were not showing your bitch had any health tests done. Then the thread is gone.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

look for the thread....yet again all jumping to conclusions...im sure you'll find my thread AND you will see how it was closed and why...seems to have apeared again!! never mind what i say is wrong so what does it matter?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> why am i bothering to argue against you? i dont know because no matter what you will continue with all the things you feel you have to say and its never ending and in the end im left to back off into a corner its a joke!! thanks for your input, you feel im a byb fair enough i be aswell let you go on with your coments etc


To be honest Stacey I am stuggling myself to see how you can believe you are anything but an unethical breeder, breeding for self gain (unless you can give another reason for the litter!) - You are my age, have no experience of breeding, no mentor and find that acceptable. Its questionable with regards to health tests, and you are asking BASIC flipping question so late on into pregnancy that worries me for the females sake.

- But dont feel to bad you are not the first, nor the last of these types of breeders to comment on the forum. Taking free BASIC advice, yet having a fliddy fit when things dont go your way.

ALL I have to say is if you and others feel you are no unethical breeder, you need to up your standards.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

if this is about Staceys thread it was closed but I had an emergency so I moved it until I could go and remove some of the posts. Do not assume things about moving a thread if time doesn't premit it has to wait. Unfortunately for the forum my family when in crisis comes first and foremost, it is back up now with the removal of posts not relevant to Ellie. Wish I had had the time earlier but hey ho that is life.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Why do you find that surprising when Pets4Homes is full of byb's and pf's and is a sistership of this very forum? Some of the ads on there are a disgrace and much worse than anything I have seen so far on this forum and that's saying something!


Well, I don't go on pets4homes as it's too depressing and yes, I find it sad the owners of this forum run such a site. However, it is a different site (even if owned and run by one and the same), and quoting the note at the top of the breeding forum it says that it is for all topics related to *responsible* breeding.



> Dog Breeding Discuss all topics related to responsible dog breeding. Including help and advice on dog breeding issues regarding the mating process, pregnancy issues, post birth issues and all other related topics.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i am your age, i dont have on hand expierence (everyone has to start somewhere) and a mentor...ofcourse i have one i ask silly questions because things go out of my head (first time want everything to be right) so what harm is there in asking a few questions??? thought you were all here to help!? mentor and ellies breeder both on call for when she does go into labour....such a shame that our minds forgot such simple things i must be an idiot because no one else does that!!??


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Quite honestly it's not a rule that you have to answer personal questions about your dog is it? Suffice to say if you are looking for advice you must be needing it so isn't it better to help under the circumstances of a bitch already being pregnant rather than to abandon that bitch completely? After all it's not the poster who is going to suffer ultimately it's the dog. Different altogether when the mating hasn't yet taken place.

I know how hard it is when you have to whelp a bitch alone with no previous experience and just a couple of text books, no forum and no lovely Tanya to advise you. Tanya is one in a million IMO, she may not agree with un health tested breeding but has helped out many of such as she genuinely cares about the dog. Lovely lady and so sad for what happened to her breeding venture recently! 

Posts do get very personal on here, no more so than in this section and I can see why, the reason the Mal forum does not allow this kind of posting at all! It all gets out of hand and of no help to the original poster in the end anyway.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> such a shame that our minds forgot such simple things i must be an idiot because no one else does that!!??


Your right an idiot indeed to forget SIMPLE things, SIMPLES things that could harm your dog or potential pups! :mad2:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

The thread is still on google cache 

Stacy I saw someone ask you on your removed thread ... what happened with your missing cats, and did I read one had kittens? Sounds familiar to me but I'm not sure if I already knew that.


Honestly, if you've done all the test then fair do's ... but it doesn't look very promising  I won't comment on your dogs looks as I don't know enough about breed standards for Labs, but I too thought she was a cross  ... in fact I've just remebered something, brb ...


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Your right an idiot indeed to forget SIMPLE things, SIMPLES things that could harm your dog or potential pups! :mad2:


is there need???


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i had a cat years ago he went missing never found him, i have 2 boy lynx (who went missing we got him back) and charlie i also have meia a rescue i took on with her babys and found them homes...


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Thanks for clarifying on the kitty issue.....


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i also tried to take on a staff..it didnt work out as the dogs ended up fighting...with it gettig worse a fair while later (new house) we took on a husky which also didnt work out not just with ellie but she became aggresive to my little girl...the one time ment i wasnt taking any more risks!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

staceydawlz said:


> i also tried to take on a staff..it didnt work out as the dogs ended up fighting...with it gettig worse a fair while later (new house) we took on a husky which also didnt work out not just with ellie but she became aggresive to my little girl...the one time ment i wasnt taking any more risks!


Maybe you should self-reflect you realise you have a tendency to bite off more than you can chew?


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

both dogs found very loving home vet checked and all suitable for their requirements...i get regular check ups from them too x


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Did you fix the KC thing, are Ellie's results up now?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well Stacey I have only ever had one litter, eight chubby pups, never lost one and all healthy lil kids when they left me and still are. Was VERY hard work and very upsetting to see them go but all ended well with of course the exception of Flynn and his hips, thankfully the only one so far - even he is as good as new now though. Not something I chose to do and left me without a partner in my older age but hey ho I have my boy instead. 

Point I am making is I may not be an expert but I have been there and Mallies are not the easiest breed to whelp and raise so if you want to ask anything you could give me a try, never know I may be able to help in some small way. Wouldn't want you to be all alone like I was!


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Maybe you should self-reflect you realise you have a tendency to bite off more than you can chew?


yes you are quite right i wanted to help and rehome another animal it didnt work out tried the 2nd time with a dog "used" to being and living with dogs and it was worse...i do have a tendency to bite off more than i can chew! not just with animals but with work load...it doesnt make me a bad person!


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

thanks malmum....its really appreciated!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> if you are looking for advice you must be needing it so isn't it better to help under the circumstances of a bitch already being pregnant rather than to abandon that bitch completely?


Not when the advice you've given has been ignored. I remember a pm when Staceydawlz told me about the dog she wanted to use. Nice dog, but knowing the stud owner I did inform her that the stud owner would not allow her dog to be used on untested bitches.

Labradors are my breed, so yes, I do feel passionate about it. There is a huge demand for them and helping with lab rescue, I know how many come into rescue from byb too. Sadly, breeders like this are ten a penny, but it doesn't make it any easier to read more taking that path, especially when they try to claim they are not.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

ellies results should be up soon aparently shes not even under my name?! i did it online, anyways i should hear the latest end of the week!


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

thanks for all the help off to bed, night x


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

staceydawlz said:


> yes you are quite right i wanted to help and rehome another animal it didnt work out tried the 2nd time with a dog "used" to being and living with dogs and it was worse...i do have a tendency to bite off more than i can chew! not just with animals but with work load...it doesnt make me a bad person!


I don't think you are a bad person, but maybe trying to do too many things at the same time? I get the impression you are doing a lot of different things. DD said you were the same age and I know she isn't very old, so I am wondering how you have managed to fit it all in.
I am not saying you are a bad person, don't get me wrong, however, I feel some of the things you have posted have maybe been a little naive. (not a crime, btw)
I hope you take all the advice on board that any members on here might give you. I know there is a lot of contention about Ellie's pregnancy and I hope you understand why people have got their backs up about it. People are honestly only trying to help you.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

So staceydawlz, what were her scores and results and those of the Sire? Since these will be publically available on the KC database soon, no harm in telling us on here and putting an end to the speculation, and I'm sure you'd like to do that


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Not when the advice you've given has been ignored. I remember a pm when Staceydawlz told me about the dog she wanted to use. Nice dog, but knowing the stud owner I did inform her that the stud owner would not allow her dog to be used on untested bitches.
> 
> Labradors are my breed, so yes, I do feel passionate about it. There is a huge demand for them and helping with lab rescue, I know how many come into rescue from byb too. Sadly, breeders like this are ten a penny, but it doesn't make it any easier to read more taking that path, especially when they try to claim they are not.


I understand how passionate you are, I feel the same when I see Mals crossed with some ridiculous breed and I don't consider myself a breeder, more a raiser really, but I still love these guys. If your advice wasn't taken that's just the way it goes, perhaps not right but it's just what people do sometimes and I can understand how annoying that may be. The quote "No one wants advice - only corroboration." is so true and if it isn't what we want to hear we will often ignore it!

My pups were not exactly bred under "proper" circumstances but I went above and beyond to ensure they had a good diet, plenty of breed info and good homes, taking two back for re home later and still in contact with all of them. 
Would imagine Stacey will do the same with her one litter and I wouldn't class her as a byb myself neither for that matter. I don't think she is going to make a habit of breeding, at least that's not the impression I get.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

staceydawlz said:


> both dogs found very loving home vet checked and all suitable for their requirements...i get regular check ups from them too x


Ahh that's good to know  I was just reading this thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/127284-really-peevd-off.html and did wonder what happened in the end.

I remembered earlier that I recalled a thread about someone saying your Lab wasn't a full lab, so went off to find it. Glad to see also that that one panned out well too 

I'm sure you can clear all this up once your test results start showing on the KC website


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

agnes2003 said:


> So staceydawlz, what were her scores and results and those of the Sire? Since these will be publically available on the KC database soon, no harm in telling us on here and putting an end to the speculation, and I'm sure you'd like to do that


Again a very personal, intrusive post that has nothing to do with anyone on this forum - unless you are the forum police of course, lol!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I was just reading this thread REALLY!!..peevd off and did wonder what happened in the end.


Oh dear - I've just read that and didn't even realise I'd posted on it!
Let's hope the puppies are sold with more care. I mean, ffs, at least get an address from the people they are being sold to


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I just checked the KC database again and no results but then I can't even find results of dogs that I know should be on there  Oh dear, maybe I should swot up on some computing basics.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I just checked the KC database again and no results but then I can't even find results of dogs that I know should be on there  Oh dear, maybe I should swot up on some computing basics.


Search Liberty King and choose the golden retriever. His hips are 6:6 and elbows clear.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> Search Liberty King and choose the golden retriever. His hips are 6:6 and elbows clear.


Thanks. Found him. Will try with others now.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Thanks. Found him. Will try with others now.


 Who are you looking for any in particular?


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> Who are you looking for any in particular?


Was looking for SL's girls but then I don't know their full KC names  I have seen their tests, but just wanted to see how the website works.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Was looking for SL's girls but then I don't know their full KC names  I have seen their tests, but just wanted to see how the website works.


Try my dog's parents if you want 

Laura Loo's Miss

Brunnental Legal Venture

Both should have hip scores and eye certificates.

I can't think of any that aren't goldens for you to search for, I only really know goldens in depth


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Again a very personal, intrusive post that has nothing to do with anyone on this forum - unless you are the forum police of course, lol!


I don't think so at all, not if you have come onto a public forum and specifically told everyone that you have done everything by the book including all the health tests etc. A few people have asked after the results, and there's nothing in wrong with doing that. Personally I think it should be commended the fact that someone has taken the time and effort to get their bitch tested and chosen a Sire who also has been, and presumably the scores/results etc are good as they would not be breeding from their bitch would they? ;-)


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

staceydawlz said:


> ellies results should be up soon aparently shes not even under my name?! i did it online, anyways i should hear the latest end of the week!


 should hear what? if the dog isn't in your name, how will you KC register the pups?

The BVA eye-testers won't give out eye test results without the appropriate KC paperwork. (I had to check when I realised I hadn't exchanged my breeder certificate to an owner certificate for one of my girls - the specialist misunderstood and said I couldn't use the breeder's certificate - until he realised I was the breeder - which was OK). 
.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> Try my dog's parents if you want
> 
> Laura Loo's Miss
> 
> ...


I managed to find her, thanks. Was being really dense.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Asking for advice and divulging personal information are two very different things. Some folk on here don't want to put their dogs KC names up for reasons known to them. I put Flynns KC name up recently and in doing so knew full well all my dogs could be "snooped" at - doesn't matter a jot to me as they are my dogs and my business! As are everyones dogs and I could count on one hand, rather one finger any other KC names I have seen on this forum, people are reluctant to share that info for whatever reason personal to them. 

Thing is if the KC are more than willing to take peoples cash and register litters from non health tested stock how on Earth are Joe pub ever going to know it isn't good practice and I use that term because it isn't illegal. If it's acceptable to the KC then posters have done nothing wrong in that organisations eyes!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> I just checked the KC database again and no results but then I can't even find results of dogs that I know should be on there  Oh dear, maybe I should swot up on some computing basics.


Some results won't be on there - AHT and ECVO eye tests for example won't be

FCI, Penn Hip and other hip schemes also won't be on there - and some DNA tests / heart screening / MRI results I also believe aren't published as standard.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Some results won't be on there - AHT and ECVO eye tests for example won't be
> 
> FCI, Penn Hip and other hip schemes also won't be on there - and some DNA tests / heart screening / MRI results I also believe aren't published as standard.


Thanks, I have found Tau. And Indie, when I looked at Tau's siblings, and spotted her results, so concluded it must be her.
Quite interesting really to look at the parents' results. Illustrates your point about scores and the scores of offspring quite nicely, just looking at one "family".


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Asking for advice and divulging personal information are two very different things. Some folk on here don't want to put their dogs KC names up for reasons known to them. I put Flynns KC name up recently and in doing so knew full well all my dogs could be "snooped" at - doesn't matter a jot to me as they are my dogs and my business! As are everyones dogs and I could count on one hand, rather one finger any other KC names I have seen on this forum, people are reluctant to share that info for whatever reason personal to them.
> 
> Thing is if the KC are more than willing to take peoples cash and register litters from non health tested stock how on Earth are Joe pub ever going to know it isn't good practice and I use that term because it isn't illegal. If it's acceptable to the KC then posters have done nothing wrong in that organisations eyes!


i was trying to stay out of this one , folk in question has already published their dogs kc name which is why some are looking at the database to look at the results.
i myself wouldn`t have a problem putting those results up if people already knew my dogs name and were questioning those results , i`d do it just to shut them up!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The BVA eye-testers won't give out eye test results without the appropriate KC paperwork. (I had to check when I realised I hadn't exchanged my breeder certificate to an owner certificate for one of my girls - the specialist misunderstood and said I couldn't use the breeder's certificate - until he realised I was the breeder - which was OK).


I have to agree - the vet (opthalmologist) I go to won't give the certificate unless I have the KC registration papers - and charges more to collect it if you don't have it on the day! Took one of mine recently and couldn't find it  after turning everything upside down I did find it and arrived a few minutes late for the appt 

The owners details are recorded on the certificate and have to match the kc registration papers so I find it hard to believe a vet would not notice that the KC registration papers showed a different owner to the one applying for the eye test


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

diablo said:


> ..folk in question has already published their dogs kc name which is why some are looking at the database to look at the results.
> i myself wouldn`t have a problem putting those results up if people already knew my dogs name and were questioning those results , i`d do it just to shut them up!


ditto that ;-)


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

diablo said:


> i was trying to stay out of this one , folk in question has already published their dogs kc name which is why some are looking at the database to look at the results.
> i myself wouldn`t have a problem putting those results up if people already knew my dogs name and were questioning those results , i`d do it just to shut them up!


I know SL and she has shown me her results, so I am pretty sure she wouldn't object. In fact, I believe she has posted Tau's full name in her breeding thread. :aureola:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I have to agree - the vet (opthalmologist) I go to won't give the certificate unless I have the KC registration papers - and charges more to collect it if you don't have it on the day! Took one of mine recently and couldn't find it  after turning everything upside down I did find it and arrived a few minutes late for the appt
> 
> The owners details are recorded on the certificate and have to match the kc registration papers so I find it hard to believe a vet would not notice that the KC registration papers showed a different owner to the one applying for the eye test


Yes - I shamefacedly admit to having a major panic the night before the clinic when I realised that I hadn't switched my breeder certificate 

Fortunately, I was able to clarify that because I was the breeder and owner - it was OK to use that record - but it would be very different had I not transferred the dog from another breeder into my name - I wouldn't have been able to get the results.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Fortunately, I was able to clarify that because I was the breeder and owner - it was OK to use that record - but it would be very different had I not transferred the dog from another breeder into my name - I wouldn't have been able to get the results.


No, I realised that, just can't figure out how Staceydawlz got her girl eye tested when she wasn't registered in her name!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> No, I realised that, just can't figure out how Staceydawlz got her girl eye tested when she wasn't registered in her name!


Because she hasn't had the test done?:aureola:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If the tests haven't been done why would anyone put the KC name up at all? Surely then it's just a matter of time before they go on the database, I know with Marty I got the results a while before they went on the database - Kali was x rayed but not scored as I needed the £45 at the time.  Her x ray wasn't as bad as Marty's but showed some mild HD (R) - is it still possible to have a vet send off the x ray for scoring even though it's three years after it was done. Also i'm not with that vet now so would it have to be done again? as i'm not putting her through a GA just out of curiosity!

Anyway back to thread, I do not in any way condone breeding without health tests first - not after all I have been through with my Flynn and of course all he has been through. So don't get me wrong please.  I do think however as I originally said what's done is now done (rightly or wrongly) and if anyone on here needs some form of help for their dog we should try our best to help them.
We have lost a couple of very decent posters on the forum recently due to critical remarks and many on this section who leave almost as soon as they join, mainly due to their ignorance about breeding but still they would need advice for the sake of their pregnant dog. I would hate to see more people leave because when they do the forum and it's members also lose out, not to mention possibly their dogs too. 

Try to educate posters of course and advise as much as possible but leave the Spanish Inquisition where it belongs, in the past!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Malmum said:


> If the tests haven't been done why would anyone put the KC name up at all? Surely then it's just a matter of time before they go on the database, I know with Marty I got the results a while before they went on the database - Kali was x rayed but not scored as I needed the £45 at the time.  Her x ray wasn't as bad as Marty's but showed some mild HD (R) - is it still possible to have a vet send off the x ray for scoring even though it's three years after it was done. Also i'm not with that vet now so would it have to be done again? as i'm not putting her through a GA just out of curiosity!
> 
> Anyway back to thread, I do not in any way condone breeding without health tests first - not after all I have been through with my Flynn and of course all he has been through. So don't get me wrong please.  I do think however as I originally said what's done is now done (rightly or wrongly) and if anyone on here needs some form of help for their dog we should try our best to help them.
> We have lost a couple of very decent posters on the forum recently due to critical remarks and many on this section who leave almost as soon as they join, mainly due to their ignorance about breeding but still they would need advice for the sake of their pregnant dog. I would hate to see more people leave because when they do the forum and it's members also lose out, not to mention possibly their dogs too.
> ...


I get what you are saying, but this forum has also lost a lot of good knowledgeable people too because of these posters - it has a reputation as a byb forum! It would be good to address that too, surely. I have no idea who has left recently or why - sorry, I don't follow such things - were these breeders too?

Besides, it's not the Spanish Inquisition - the holes in this particular instance have been apparent from the beginning.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I get what you are saying, *but this forum has also lost a lot of good knowledgeable people too because of these posters - it has a reputation as a byb forum!* It would be good to address that too, surely. I have no idea who has left recently or why - sorry, I don't follow such things - were these breeders too?
> 
> Besides, it's not the Spanish Inquisition - the holes in this particular instance have been apparent from the beginning.


 What people have left over these posters? ( is this a long time ago or recently)


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Over the years - not recently. Their usernames come up on old posts, but they have cancelled membership.

I don't know who malmum is referring to regarding members who have recently left.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No not breeders as far as I know anyway. Rona left and she was a wealth of information and Eroswoof left as she was so offended by some posts she received, we also haven't seen Shetlandlover for a while and a couple of other posters who are usually on here. I really hope people don't take offence at some posts, after all they are only advice and peoples opinions because I find this forum a wealth of useful information and I have learned a lot since joining here, as well as given some tips which I hope have been useful.

I would have loved this place when Kali was in pup but then no one would have believed a "newbie's" story like mine, i'd have just got loads of roleyeyes, lol! Either way it may have calmed me down and stopped me bawling throughout Kali's birthing and I think that's why I get concerned for other people in that situation, if anything goes wrong they may not notice and need to get to the vet asap. I was lucky everything went so smoothly for Kali and I would always be willing to help someone else not to have to be in the position I was in. Some cases are genuine, many are not but I believe some are by my own experience.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Sometimes people are completely ignorant when it comes to breeding. They come onto a forum and ask for help. In those cases what's done is done, and whilst people will always have their opinon on the rghts and wrongs, I do agree that ultimately help should be offered for the benefit of the dog and pups in questions. The hope is that next time, if there is a next time, they will do things differently.

What I hate, hate, hate, is those that come on and know what they should be doing/should have done, claim that they have, and then you find out that it's all utter tosh. Sorry but they are worse to me than those that have created a situation on ignorance alone, and I find it incredibly depressing.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

agnes2003 said:


> Sometimes people are completely ignorant when it comes to breeding. They come onto a forum and ask for help. In those cases what's done is done, and whilst people will always have their opinon on the rghts and wrongs, I do agree that ultimately help should be offered for the benefit of the dog and pups in questions. The hope is that next time, if there is a next time, they will do things differently.
> 
> What I hate, hate, hate, is those that come on and know what they should be doing/should have done, claim that they have, and then you find out that it's all utter tosh. Sorry but they are worse to me than those that have created a situation on ignorance alone, and I find it incredibly depressing.


my feelings exactly!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

This forum is a general pet forum as opposed to a breed or pet specific one and this probably attracts a more wide variety of pet owners from complete novices to experienced owners.

With a breed specific forum I suppose you will get to know more about breeding your breed and there will be certain members people use and rely on for info.

With this one it covers all breeds and crosses and mongrels and with that comes the wider variety of people and more info and more problems!!!

People on this forum dip in and out and come and go and I know it can get frustrating for people who feel their advice is being ignored.

Personally I think a sticky covering the salient points of breeding that embraces the usual questions that get asked would be more beneficial then repeated threads that can get heated or cause members to leave.

Then when a new member comes on board people can just then refer them to the sticky and will hopefully stop threads getting closed and people getting :mad2:


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> This forum is a general pet forum as opposed to a breed or pet specific one and this probably attracts a more wide variety of pet owners from complete novices to experienced owners.
> 
> With a breed specific forum I suppose you will get to know more about breeding your breed and there will be certain members people use and rely on for info.
> 
> ...


i get what you are saying , tho i am sure many agree there is nothing worse than someone going into breeding with their eyes closed if threads like this can put a stop to one accidental breeding / litter , then it`s served it`s purpose.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If you need KC papers to get health test results, does this mean cross breeds and mongrels can't be health tested even if you want them to be?


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> If you need KC papers to get health test results, does this mean cross breeds and mongrels can't be health tested even if you want them to be?


Any dog can be hip/elbow scored - with or without KC Registration - I actually emailed the BVA about this not long back


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> why is it this forum will cover the backs of backyard breeders  - They request a thread closed once the truth is out, and the forum willing does it.
> 
> That does not help educate the public.
> 
> Disgusting......


Lost count of the times we have had our 'wrists slapped' DD for speaking out! (not only us but many others too) AND it is the same in the cat section as it is the dog section! Guess I have got to the stage where I turn a blind eye which is very sad! The difference between you and I you are a stubburn git who refuses to lay down! I take my hat off to you girl! I do personally think that ANY forum should discourage irresponsible breeding and allow members to comment! But as in life the bad guys seems to get away with murder and go unchallenged! very sad!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

diablo said:


> i get what you are saying , tho i am sure many agree there is nothing worse than someone going into breeding with their eyes closed if threads like this can put a stop to one accidental breeding / litter , then it`s served it`s purpose.


Totally agree hence why I think an informative easy to read sticky that covers most of the common questions asked by inexperienced breeders and cover aspects of breeding that should be thought about PRIOR to breeding would serve the forum well.

It means less duplication and frustration and once a thread starts up the OP can be pinpointed to the sticky.

A sticky would also look good for the forum in promoting good breeding practices too


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

It should also be remembered that 'jumping' on people without knowing the full facts - which we may never know - is not good and deters others from asking seemingly 'obvious' questions.

We should all try not to pre-judge others and offer advice carefully and thoughtfully, and if the OP takes the advice and learns, all well and good, if they dont, they dont, and there is not a thing that can be done about it.

Losing ones temper online is a fruitless exercise in the main and only serves to push people away. There are ways and means to be firm and get points across without the whole thing degenerating into a bitchfest.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

There are several stickies at the top of the breeding section. From thinking of breeding your dog to whelping kit supplies, to thinking of using your dog for stud and necessary health tests before breeding...


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> There are several stickies at the top of the breeding section. From thinking of breeding your dog to whelping kit supplies, to thinking of using your dog for stud and necessary health tests before breeding...


Yes have seen those and has good advice :thumbup:although some of the information is written leaning towards breeds and mentions KC and breed clubs etc.. and can perhaps put off a breeder of crosses/mongrels who may not read it all through properly - thinking it's not for them?

I just wondered if a petforum sticky as opposed to links to other sites might make it easier, covering questions that get asked the most often on here.

Was thinking of lessening the tension we get and trying to make it easier though appreciate some-one would need to do a sticky so best if I keep quiet before I get lynched


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've got absolutely no qualms about my girls health test results being mentioned anywhere, I'm proud of them in every way, and it's not like I hide them (ie all over my website).

Just for anyone interested:

Chapelrose Lala Tau of Tarimoor - hip scores, elbow grades, pra to hopefully arrive shortly although I know she's cbp, cnm and a current clear eye cert hopefully to be in there shortly
Chapelrose Indian Princess - spayed, reluctantly, not a good elbow grade although questionable, and just felt it wasn't fair to put her through whelping
Arrowhill Stargazer (will be nowt against her but her parents scores will be on)

The stud dog I plan to use is Oakglen Over The Border at Poniel. 

Anyone who looks at any of the breeding aspects will hopefully see that I'm hoping to make improvements on things like COI, but importantly to me I've got the right health tests (I feel) in place, and the right dogs. And I may go ahead and take a litter, fingers crossed all being well.

Right, have to disappear as I've got to go and get oranged up and out on site, wow this thread has gone on! Oooh, and for anyone interested, I scanned and put Tau's health test results on my other thread, and would happily do the same for any dog although I may edit out current location details etc, if I did so next time, all the details were old on those certs, can't be too careful just in case somone (Terencesmum) fancies nicking them  

(Darn it, forgot she already knows where we live!)


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I get what you are saying, but this forum has also lost a lot of good knowledgeable people too because of these posters - it has a reputation as a byb forum! It would be good to address that too, surely. I have no idea who has left recently or why - sorry, I don't follow such things - were these breeders too?
> 
> Besides, it's not the Spanish Inquisition - the holes in this particular instance have been apparent from the beginning.


*But your happy to continue to be an active member.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *But your happy to continue to be an active member.*


and thank goodness for that, Rocco has tons of knowledge to offer and is one member who would be greatly missed imho.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> and thank goodness for that, Rocco has tons of knowledge to offer and is one member who would be greatly missed imho.


*I wasn't questioning his knowledge.I'm against fox hunter so why would i want to be part of a forum i thought promoted it?*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I wasn't questioning his knowledge.I'm against fox hunter so why would i want to be part of a forum i thought promoted it?*


on the other big dog forums thats the reputation it has got im afraid, so folk like Rocco are needed more than ever to put across their ethical views....its not the same as your example either...its not full of people who are All pro the same opinion on a subject, some come on here asking for advice and the likes of Rocco give the soundest because of their knowledge


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I wasn't questioning his knowledge.I'm against fox hunter so why would i want to be part of a forum i thought promoted it?*


To put the other side to arguments and to try to redress the imbalance 

If all those speaking out against things leave instead of speaking out - whether it be bad breeding, PDE, racism, fox-hunting or whatever - then the eejits have won. And whilst that fact istelf doesn't bother me, it does bother me that people surfing the net will come on here and think "Oh, that must be ok becuase all these people on this huge forum are saying it and no-one is saying anything different".

In other words - you and Freespirit get your a---- back on here now


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I suppose we do need people from all sides of the argument to make it a proper debate - and a debate it what it should be - not an argument 

Good advice should always be given too, like I said earlier, some are more brutal at giving than others, doesnt really make it wrong or right, but the tone of the written word can make a huge difference as to whether the uneducated will take it in. 

And everyone ought to remember - NO one person is perfect all the time, we all make mistakes, lets make sure we allow people to learn and not make the same mistakes twice.


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

Elles said:


> If you need KC papers to get health test results, does this mean cross breeds and mongrels can't be health tested even if you want them to be?


They can be tested. I had a collie puppy of mine done for CEA years ago but now you need a tattoo or microchip to make the dog/puppy permanently identifiable. The kc reg is asked for *if *the dog is Kc reg'd.

For hips/elbows
" 3.3 For dogs not registered with the KC, identification as used by the veterinary practice or by the breed club may be used."

The permanent identity number is radiographed or light pencilled onto x rays.

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/HD_PN_2011.pdf

Ditto The BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme All dogs must be permanently identified (by microchip or tattoo) and certification and the identification verified except for a litter of puppies being screened.

"You must have the relevant KC or ISDS owner registration document with you in order to present your dog for an eye test and certification under the Scheme."

Dogs without permanent identification can be examined arranged via 
a referral consultation but 
" will be outwith the Scheme; therefore no certificate will be issued"

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/what_is_the_eye_scheme.pdf

both pdf docs from
BVA - Canine Health Schemes


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> I suppose we do need people from all sides of the argument to make it a proper debate - and a debate it what it should be - not an argument


I agree - damn, wish I'd put "debate" instead of "argument" in my post 

Seriously though, the posters I value most on here are the knowledgeable ones who will stand up for what they believe in and who can debate sensibly without resorting to name calling or sulking or melodrama if they find that some people have different opinions to them. There are several people on here whose opinions I find that I agree with on some subjects, but whose opinions I am diametrically opposed to on others - yet we can discuss things amicably and respect each other's opinions. And that, for me, is the strength of this forum - along with the depth of knowledge of these people, of course.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> To put the other side to arguments and to try to redress the imbalance
> 
> If all those speaking out against things leave instead of speaking out - whether it be bad breeding, PDE, racism, fox-hunting or whatever - then the eejits have won. And whilst that fact istelf doesn't bother me, it does bother me that people surfing the net will come on here and think "Oh, that must be ok becuase all these people on this huge forum are saying it and no-one is saying anything different".
> 
> In other words - you and Freespirit get your a---- back on here now


*I'm so laughing at the last part of your post.
I am all for letting people know the rights and wrongs of animal welfare of all types,but i honestly believe judging people by their mistakes is not the way forward.
Free Spirit (Ony) has shown me,her mum many ways where my way of thinking was wrong,and i'm still learning.
Now had she just jumped down my throat and told me i was wrong,the chances are i would still think the way i use to.We debate things over where animal welfare is concerned which,imo is what this forum should do.Take the good with the bad and learn from it.Sure some will never change their minds,but we shouldn't give up on them.*


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

And it should also be remembered that there are many sides to a debate - nothing in life is purely black or white, they are many many shades of grey inbetween and I think thats where problems can lie sometimes. People can be steadfast in their views and not be willing to bend at all, when sometimes a little bit of lenience and empathy can be all it takes to understand and be understood.

We know ther are 'rules' when it comes to breeding, sometimes rules need to, or can be, bent a little, and people ought to remember that - bending a rule doesnt make someone a bad person and does not give others the right to jump on that person verbally within a forum or any other way.

All I ask is that people dont judge myself till you've walked a mile in my shoes - perhaps others ought to think along those lines a bit more


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

A good forum helps people by showing that there are contentious issues and what they are and that sometimes there is a good way and a poor way and that sometimes there isn't a "right way" or "one way". It highlights the traps the unwary can fall into then they can then steer away from those black holes. We can offer a helping hand out of the hole that someone has unwarily fallen into. That doesn't mean we would also be condoning someone who knowingly walked into one of those black holes of their own volition but if you send them all running away with a flea in their ear what help is there left for the bitch and puppies if they need it? 

It hasn't escaped me that so often you hear of people doing everything right and spending money they haven't got and the bitch needs a c-section at 3 am, loses most of the litter and the breeder is a grand or more out of pocket and maybe loses the bitch as well whilst my nice, but dim, neighbour catches her dog and bitch tied and only goes downstairs at 2 am because there's a newborn pup behind the closed kitchen door bawling it's head off. 

It's not just the bitch and pups need support. Some unwitting person buys one of those "raised in our kitchen with kids" byb puppies and may be faced with the early loss of their pet or a series of vets bills they didn't expect. Yes it gets me :mad2: this happens but it's worth joining and staying on a forum that at least discusses and debates such issues sensibly.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

There is a temptation to say to someone how much of an idiot they are for doing something. That doesn't help anyone, I tend to be subtle to find out more information and then decide whether to help them or not. They shouldn't be allowed to go unchallenged though if they are doing something wrong .


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm just a bog standard dog owner whoo has 3 dogs who at one point or another where abused or unwanted....I don't know everything about dogs to all...I'm on a need to know basis on most things but learn what I need to. I have heard the term Back yard breeder so many times but still don't know exactly what it means although i have a rough idea? is it someone whoo just breeds dogs at home and don't charge as much as a pedigree dog? or is there ore to it than that...am I in the wrong for getting y 3 the way I did? I didn't pay for any of mine because of the circumstances i got them in but does this make me just as bad for taking the on? I didn't get the fro a rescue centre just fro owners who didn't treat them right...aside penny who was a result of an 'accident'
I'm not being thick I just genuinely don't know....quick explanation plz anyone?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Breeding is always going to remain a contentious issue - from those that don't believe anyone at all should be breeding - to those who believe you should only breed for work or show purposes, to those who happy providing health tests are done and the breeder is being responsible and goes into it with their eyes wide open.

So even within that there are a whole host of differing opinions.

There will be those screaming Hip Dysplasia if a dog or bitch has a marginally higher than breed average scores - when in reality, the odds up to a given point are no higher than breeding from those with 0/0 scores, and very often, marginally higher dogs produce dogs with lower scores.

But even then - there will be a level of tolerance - I've identified a dog with a hipscore of 16 for one of my girls - 1 point above the breed average - he's a good match and producing cracking progeny and not producing any pups with known problems - my bitch's score is 4/3 - so it's a counteracted balance of scores - he is also PRA clear and has done well in the showring - but even then - because of people's perceptions - there is always the question of "should I" even though I know that we are no more likely to have an issue than if I used a dog with a score of 10.

In breeds with low averages - a few points above the average won't be a major significance - with breeds with much higher averages (often 2 to 3 times or more the lower averages - then yes - there is a strong argument for trying to remain below the average in order to bring scores down (which history shows us happens when we use higher scoring (but not severely dysplastic dogs).

Breeders should be breeding for themselves, and you have to make decisions on whether you compromise on match for a pet audience or whether you make the best possible decision for your dog - it's a difficult one all around in truth - the testing tools are just that - a tool to enable us to make responsible breeding decisions as opposed to excluding dogs (with obvious exceptions) so that we can use good quality genes who may happen to be recessive carriers or slightly imperfect hips etc

For me this is where I get nervous - will breeders be told what their limits are - which could do untold damage to gene pools whilst non-testing breeders continue to get away scott free.

Two litters of say Labs 

One parent - hips 18 / elbows 0, eyes clear / PRA Clear, CNM Clear
One Parent - Hips 5, elbows 0, eyes clear, PRA Carrier / CNM Clear

Or 

Both parents no tests - grandparents no tests and a completely chequered history in the remaining 4 generations 

Which is the better option? the first each and every single time, because you know that the first breeder has taken the time and forethought to do things properly - they may have even proved their stud dogs by using them on their own bitches and monitoring progeny hipscores.

It's always going to be contentious - but getting everyone to have a minimum test criteria (IMO without rules on what the results should be) would be a better starting point that what we have now - but to achieve this is going to require law changes


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Elles said:


> If you need KC papers to get health test results, does this mean cross breeds and mongrels can't be health tested even if you want them to be?


Nope ANY dog can, I looked into it with one of my dogs when he was "bunny" hopping and the vet said he was to young really to show signs of HD but they could Hip score him if i wanted and see if he had bad scores for furture reference


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm so laughing at the last part of your post.
> I am all for letting people know the rights and wrongs of animal welfare of all types,but i honestly believe judging people by their mistakes is not the way forward.
> Free Spirit (Ony) has shown me,her mum many ways where my way of thinking was wrong,and i'm still learning.
> Now had she just jumped down my throat and told me i was wrong,the chances are i would still think the way i use to.We debate things over where animal welfare is concerned which,imo is what this forum should do.Take the good with the bad and learn from it.Sure some will never change their minds,but we shouldn't give up on them.*


I think the worry is here, that staceydawlz really isn't sure of health tests, nor is sure of what she's doing tbh, and yet has gone ahead with taking a litter from her bitch.

Asking basic colour questions about litters with a breed as easy as Labs, tends to ring alarm bells, I know it did for me. If it had been something like cocker spaniels, where the colour complexities are much more intricate, then yes, it's a question that should be asked, for Labs, no, it's fairly straight forward, even, if like me, you *know* it but need to look it up each time just to be sure you really do know it. But not to know??

Then to have to be told the health test results for your bitch, who herself didn't seem to appear on the KC database (edited to add, she's most certainly there, but initial searches didn't come up with the KC name and apols if this edit is late, as my interweb connection is playing up, yet again), aren't there, then things start to look worryingly out of control for this first time breeder. And yes, people are cynical, they do wonder, are they hiding something? Because, let's face it, many people involved with breeding have come across those who either do purposefully hide something, even in so far as to giving false health test results, or, you get people who can't face up to an issue, or issues, and so hide them under the carpet hoping no-one will ask them about it.

It's my hope that honesty will out in the end for all breeders, if you have anything to hide, you shouldn't be breeding, if you have nothing to hide, post it out there. No one gets burnt at the stake for making mistakes, we all make them, it's when people don't learn, and try tohide or deceive that in the end folk lose faith in them ime.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think the worry is here, that staceydawlz really isn't sure of health tests, nor is sure of what she's doing tbh, and yet has gone ahead with taking a litter from her bitch.
> 
> Asking basic colour questions about litters with a breed as easy as Labs, tends to ring alarm bells, I know it did for me. If it had been something like cocker spaniels, where the colour complexities are much more intricate, then yes, it's a question that should be asked, for Labs, no, it's fairly straight forward, even, if like me, you *know* it but need to look it up each time just to be sure you really do know it. But not to know??
> 
> ...


*When i joined this forum i hadn't got a clue about health testing or what breeding problems could accure.As far as i was concernd my dogs were checked over by the vet and i was told they were healthy.And imo thats all i needed to know.Also back then i was going to breed my 2 and couldn't see any reaon why i shouldn't.But i have learnt,and taken things onboard,although i'm sure a lot on here wouldn't believe it.I've never had any dog i've owned neuterd,but my Kai was done last year and i will be getting my Mia done too.Now had i joined and started asking questions and people started telling me i was wrong to be doing this that or the other,i would have said my piece and left.And by now i would have no doubt bred from my dogs.
Not everyone can argue their case or stand up to others like i do.Thats not being big headed,i'm just saying it as it was for me..If people need to tread softly softly then so beit,because imo thats better then ramming things down people's throats,even if the intentions are good.
lol i hope that lot made sence.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Yes it does make sense and (interweb allowing) hopefully I can reply!

I completely agree, when I bought Indie, I knew nowt about health testing, I was incredibly fortunate to find a breeder who health tested, and did what was recommended for the breed at that time, and of course things have moved on and now more and more is being recommended. 

What I would say to staceydawlz is that if you've read all through the posts, and you perhaps realise why people are concerned, don't be afraid to tell us what you've done to address those concerns. If you've made mistakes, own up to them, we all make mistakes, I've done so in the past, and I hope I make more in the future, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, my mistakes allow me to prove that and also give me an opportunity to learn. 

As has been said before on this thread, and many others, breeding is a very emotive issue, so is it any wonder people are worried and concerned for the bitch, and also concerned the person concerned hasn't got enough knowledge and has gone ahead with this litter. I hope that comes through more than anything from what's been said about the whole issue.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> Lost count of the times we have had our 'wrists slapped' DD for speaking out! (not only us but many others too) AND it is the same in the cat section as it is the dog section! Guess I have got to the stage where I turn a blind eye which is very sad! The difference between you and I you are a stubburn git who refuses to lay down! I take my hat off to you girl! I do personally think that ANY forum should discourage irresponsible breeding and allow members to comment! But as in life the bad guys seems to get away with murder and go unchallenged! very sad!


I've lost count too, I am stubburn because I truely care, unlike alot of the folk on here that pretend to care until its suits or involved them or they can try and be the forums peace maker, which btw doesnt help with the potential suffering of females, puppies and owners to be! 


> There are several stickies at the top of the breeding section. From thinking of breeding your dog to whelping kit supplies, to thinking of using your dog for stud and necessary health tests before breeding...


& it would seem those that take note of such stickes either created them or already know of the advice supplied. Looks at the types of breeders posting on this forum, its suprising just how much knowledge they lack. It wouldnt bother me so much if it wasnt the dogs, the rescue situation and like wise that suffered. - Because its always the good folk that have to watch the suffering, and support those going through it!

I've decided that some folk arent all they try to crack up to be, you cant educate all and you cant help all dogs as much as I would like too. So I give up, not that it means I wont give my opinion when I can. Even if it just makes these selfish breeders feel bad for a wee second.

The good advice on this forum by experience breeders is ignored, and advice is taken by them that know nowt..Often people even take advice off others that have been proven unethical, irresponsible money making scum 

- I am learning the art of being a responsible breeder, it isnt easy, and its time consuming but then again you need the passion before the litters planned. Ive noticed most folk on here dont know the meaning of passion let alone feel it, and thats the saddest part. Those that dont want to be responsible wont, we cant change that - I just feel for the dogs, used.

This thread wasnt about any one member, because to be honest I would be here all day if I started a thread on each 'breeder'..
Ive spoke to alot of decent folk on here and alot are unsure if they want to post their threads and have their litters, and updates surrounded by all the dodgy goings ons. Sad when the decent folk keep stum because of the bad amoung us.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I see a advert on a certain site for a litter of pups, a 3 way cross, collie x springer mum & a nova scotia duck tolling dad, bred by a vet, stated that they wont have health problem due to being a cross, for £700 each ID want them dipped in gold! I asked her if any of the crosses in them had any sort of health tests, no reply!  So people reading that are gfoing to think 'oh if a vet breeds them its must be ok!' 

sometimes I dont think vets know anything about breeding, I had to correct 2nurses at one of my vets as they had things wrong, surely they should do courses in that aswell as healing treating animals? 

Maybe when people bring new pets in the vets should talk about neutering and the benefits and then what health tests would be neede if they want to breed their animal? a small step, might put some people off of 'just one litter' ? :confused1:


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## Ozcat (Sep 1, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> I see a advert on a certain site for a litter of pups, a 3 way cross, collie x springer mum & a nova scotia duck tolling dad, bred by a vet, stated that they wont have health problem due to being a cross, for £700 each ID want them dipped in gold! I asked her if any of the crosses in them had any sort of health tests, no reply!  So people reading that are gfoing to think 'oh if a vet breeds them its must be ok!'
> 
> sometimes I dont think vets know anything about breeding, I had to correct 2nurses at one of my vets as they had things wrong, surely they should do courses in that aswell as healing treating animals?
> 
> Maybe when people bring new pets in the vets should talk about neutering and the benefits and then what health tests would be neede if they want to breed their animal? a small step, might put some people off of 'just one litter' ? :confused1:


I'm in vet school at the moment. We do get taught about basic genetics, causes of genetic disease, and molecular genetics. We also learn about ethical treatment of animals in regard to breeding, for instance the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme on the BBC was discussed in one of the units I studied last year. We've covered heredity and coefficients of inbreeding, looking at pedigrees, EBVs, threshold traits, mendelian inheritance etc this year. Note that this is in relation to all the major domestic animals. I have found it interesting but to be honest there are so many other things we get taught that there is no time to go and research extra areas of interest at this stage, I am more focussed on trying to get through the course as it is extremely hard! I feel like we get a lot of overview type information on everything we need to know, which is enough to make us competent vets, and this is why you have so many specialist vets in different fields because you simply have to do post graduate study to cover an area of interest in great depth.

However, some vets are just like anyone else out there - they can be unethically breeding dogs or ethically breeding dogs. Some poeple choose to ignore the overpopulation problem - vets should know better. I'm a keen advocate of neutering and am interested in early age desexing (not covered that in any depth on the course yet so I'm not aware of all the pros and cons). When I practise I shall definitely be advising clients on the benefits of neutering!

Regarding the nurses, not sure how much veterinary nursing courses teach on genetics, I know in some countries nurses can start working at a clinic as they are starting their nursing course, so they can get practical experience whilst they are studying the theory, so they may not know all the ins and outs of the theory at first... still, they shouldn't attempt to answer questions if they don't know the answers...


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ozcat said:


> I'm in vet school at the moment. We do get taught about basic genetics, causes of genetic disease, and molecular genetics. We also learn about ethical treatment of animals in regard to breeding, for instance the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme on the BBC was discussed in one of the units I studied last year. We've covered heredity and coefficients of inbreeding, looking at pedigrees, EBVs, threshold traits, mendelian inheritance etc this year. Note that this is in relation to all the major domestic animals. I have found it interesting but to be honest there are so many other things we get taught that there is no time to go and research extra areas of interest at this stage, I am more focussed on trying to get through the course as it is extremely hard! I feel like we get a lot of overview type information on everything we need to know, which is enough to make us competent vets, and this is why you have so many specialist vets in different fields because you simply have to do post graduate study to cover an area of interest in great depth.


I don't think it is difficult to see why vets won't have breed specific knowledge on health tests etc for breeding - they cover a huge range of species - I liken them to GP's who may have one or two areas of specialist knowledge, but generally their knowledge is broad - and this is why we have specialists (for humans and dogs).

I don't however think it would hurt for veterinary surgeries to have access to, in either online or paper based form up to date information on what is required for breeding any specific breed of dog and the small number of more popular crosses that they can refer to and advise clients accordingly - the KC should surely be in a position to provide such information quite effortlessly - so even if they then don't have the knowledge, they (or the vet nurses / receptionists) will have access to a resource of information they can pass on to clients.

=======================

A lot of people in the UK do not support early neutering - personally, I like to see a dog reach maturity first - i.e. a bitch having their first season, and a dog mature - there is evidence that early neutering of males leads to bone cancers and other health problems and bitches can be left with lifelong incontinence - plus - most of the dogs I've met who've been neutered early are almost stuck in a time-warp physically and never fully mature.

My own vets are advocates of 6 month neutering - when bitches often don't have their first season until 12 months or later - so not difficult to see there's a lot of maturing left to do for many 6 month old bitches.

Surely better to educate bitch owners on how to manage a season and then to neuter 3 months afterwards?

I recognise that occasionally, you will get a dog who is very sexually driven - one of my own pups was, and his owner had no option in the end but to neuter early and had my full support because of the reasons behind it - but I own two entire boys of 3 and 13.5 months and neither of them is particularly sexually driven despite living with 5 entire females. - the only time we have some noisy periods is when the girls are bang on for mating (when of course, they are not allowed anywhere near them) - but the rest of the time, it's not a major problem at all.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I've lost count too, I am stubburn because I truely care, unlike alot of the folk on here that pretend to care until its suits or involved them or they can try and be the forums peace maker, which btw doesnt help with the potential suffering of females, puppies and owners to be!
> 
> & it would seem those that take note of such stickes either created them or already know of the advice supplied. Looks at the types of breeders posting on this forum, its suprising just how much knowledge they lack. It wouldnt bother me so much if it wasnt the dogs, the rescue situation and like wise that suffered. - Because its always the good folk that have to watch the suffering, and support those going through it!
> 
> ...


*And calling people scum will not do anything to educate anyone.:mad2:*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *And calling people scum will not do anything to educate anyone.:mad2:*


DD hasnt personally called anyone scum Janice, the way i read it she was talking generally, ..she probably feels as strongly about bad breeders as you do say foxhunters?..maybe you can understand why she is so passionately against such breeders if you look at it like that?

and just to add DD has given plenty of help and sound advice to people on here who havent gone about breeding the right way.

.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> DD hasnt personally called anyone scum Janice, the way i read it she was talking generally, ..she probably feels as strongly about bad breeders as you do say foxhunters?..maybe you can understand why she is so passionately against such breeders if you look at it like that?
> 
> and just to add DD has given plenty of help and sound advice to people on here who havent gone about breeding the right way.
> 
> .


*I believe i read it as it was intended noushka.People do many things out of ignorance,i know i have.As i've said before,if people want to get a message across the worst thing imho is to start judging people.
If we get a puppy we don't expect it to know right from wrong,we take the time to train them.*


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

See how easy it is for diff peeps to interpret words in diff ways??


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe i read it as it was intended noushka.People do many things out of ignorance,i know i have.As i've said before,if people want to get a message across the worst thing imho is to start judging people.
> If we get a puppy we don't expect it to know right from wrong,we take the time to train them.*


i understand that people do do things out of ignorance...but still the way i read what DD is saying is that even after good advice has been given, and they know its the wrong thing to do they still go ahead and breed anyway, so ignorance isnt an excuse in many instances because they do know better.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> See how easy it is for diff peeps to interpret words in diff ways??


Absolutely - completing re-enforcing what was said yesterday on another thread


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> See how easy it is for diff peeps to interpret words in diff ways??


That's the main drawback of a forum - and the cause of many an argument.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

It's fairly obvious to those experienced about breeding who's a byb by the little things they say, these things seem to go unnoticed by most people .


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I've decided that some folk arent all they try to crack up to be, you cant educate all and you cant help all dogs as much as I would like too. So I give up, not that it means I wont give my opinion when I can. Even if it just makes these selfish breeders feel bad for a wee second.
> 
> *Often people even take advice off others that have been proven unethical, irresponsible money making scum* -
> 
> ...


Isn't it

Where has Ditzy disappeared to?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *And calling people scum will not do anything to educate anyone.:mad2:*


It wasnt directed at anyone Janice, if it was I would have made it clear as to who 
It was a general statement, I have seen all to often newbie breeders take advice from them out to make money - (which in my opinion makes them scum). Thats an opinion, NOT me trying to educate folk.

But then again those that try and educate get shot down in flames, by them that spend NO time trying to help, or educate.


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## Kazastan (Sep 2, 2011)

Miss chief said:


> Isn't it
> 
> Where has Ditzy disappeared to?


Several people have asked me that - think she was in danger of choking on her own vomit and has chosen to stay away!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Interestingly, was chatting to my solicitor earlier about something completely different, and I mentioned to her (as I know she's a sucker for anything related to helping animal welfare) the state of some breeders and how myself and others promote contracts of sale for pups, but were unsure how legally binding they are. Her view was as long as the correct wording is used, they very much are legally binding, as long as both parties understand all the terms and conditions applied in the contract of sale, and the reasons behind endorsements and any provisos in place that need to be met before these are lifted. 

So, perhaps the contract of sale is the way forward to try and stop byb's and puppy farmers. And will give puppy buyers who have bought a pup in good faith, some come back should they find out the breeder hasn't done all they could have.

For example, with my puppy pack, contract and endorsement docs, I will include a list of the tests available that I haven't used and why, so hopefully it gives a full picture to puppy buyers - all theoretical atm of course - however, if someone produces a contract, without stating why they haven't made use of the elbow grading scheme, or bothered to find out the status for other reliable tests, which are proven to be a problem within the gene pool, then perhaps they could be held to account as well, even those who have knowingly repeated matings and I know of a few, that have produced certain health issues where there is no available test - I'm thinking epilepsy here with Labs in particular - hmmmmmm, right, must press 'submit' before my interweb connection gives in again.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I definately think a "buyer beware" campaign is the way to "educate" the public


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I definately think a "buyer beware" campaign is the way to "educate" the public


I'd like to think so too Rainy, unfortunately, I've come across too many puppy buyers willing to ignore advice, because they want that puppy, and they want that colour, right now. Hopefully, a contract would work both ways, if it were a legal requirement to only buy dogs, cats etc, under contract, that would (I'm sure) cut down the byb's and puppy farmers overnight, and stop people who aren't suitable from owning dogs just buying them on a whim.

Just as an aside, was out on site earlier, and sat chatting with my boss whilst in my little white van, letting him know what I'd got completed etc. I watched in horror, as a little JRT/chihuhua bitch, with swinging teats, trotted past the van several times, at one point with a fully wrapped mini pizza in her mouth. What on earth are the owners thinking allowing this bitch to wander, and obviously breed?? People like that don't deserve to own dogs, but there are now current laws against it, unfortunately


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