# Why is ear cropping and tail docking breed standard for some breeds?



## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

I don't get it.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

I don’t get why you constantly post controversial threads...
Why are you on a pet forum again?
Do you own pets?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I don't get why you constantly post controversial threads...
> Why are you on a pet forum again?
> Do you own pets?


I never once realised that 'owning a pet' was a condition that had to be fulfilled before the right of membership could be acquired.

And there was I, brazenly tripping in and out of Cat chat from time to time and I don't even own a Moggy. :Sorry


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

TehSnoipah said:


> I don't get it.


What's to get?

Ear cropping is illegal in the UK and no dog thus impaired can ever show or register with the Kennel Club. So it's not a breed standard.

And Tail docking is also illegal in the Uk ... so not a breed standard either. The few working breeds who may apply to have their tail docked if they are to be worked, do so to avoid tail injury. Not that common now.

J


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

what he said ^^^^^^^^^


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Tail docking and ear cropping is also illegal in most, but not all European countries.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

TehSnoipah said:


> I don't get it.


In the UK ear cropping is illegal in the vast majority of the world with the odd exception and of course the USA.

There is absolutely NO reason to have this done apart from cosmetic.

If long drooping ears were a health problem then Cockers, Springers, Weimaraners, Bassets etc would have been redesigned accordingly.

Tail docking is also illegal in most places bar for certain breeds for certain reasons ie gundogs and terriers of prescribed breeds for working purposes eg gundogs, services etc.

It has always been cosmetic in the case of breeds such as Boxers, Dobermann, Rottweilers, etc


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Ear cropping is illegal in the UK and no dog thus impaired can ever show or register with the Kennel Club. So it's not a breed standard. And Tail docking is also illegal in the Uk ... so not a breed standard either. The few working breeds who may apply to have their tail docked if they are to be worked, do so to avoid tail injury. Not that common now.
> J


The same goes for most European countries as least, and if I remember correctly also in Australia it is forbidden now to crop ears and dock tails, unless specifically allowed for working dogs. So it never should be a breed standard any more, and if it still is in some countries, it should be forbidden. No reason for that, like Jamesgoeswalkies pointed out. Some show examples of breeds are ear cropped..

But the question of what is a good breed standard is very good, as we have lots of other, even more severe health issues caused by unhealthy breed standards. Muzzles too short to make breathing very difficult, skulls too small for brains to fit, hips so low skeleton cannot support the frame any more, size so large hips can´t function, skin so wrinkled it becomes painful etc.

Good news is that already we have some experience of how health issues of a breed can be improved, if most breeders will decide together to breed only healthy dogs, and not follow blindly the standards, when the standard is creating health problems for the dog. I read an article about 10 years ago when some breed organizations decided to focus on health issues in breeding and now, 10 years later the dogs had about half the amount of serious health issues, e.g. hip dysplasia. I will try to find the article, as I cannot remember which breeds were involved and what other health problems were improved.

So for me poor breed standards is a question I don´t get either. This is not a problem caused by back yard breeders, but by the kennel club, who has turned a blind eye to this serious problem.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> What's to get?
> 
> Ear cropping is illegal in the UK and no dog thus impaired can ever show or register with the Kennel Club. So it's not a breed standard.
> 
> ...


On 21st December 2015 press release from the Kennel Club:

CROPPED EARED DOGS AT SHOWS

We are writing to relevant breed clubs regarding a recent change in policy concerning the admittance of cropped eared dogs as spectator dogs at Kennel Club licenced breed club shows for a trial period.

The Kennel Club recently considered a request from a breeder and exhibitor asking that dogs with cropped ears be allowed to attend breed club shows as 'spectator' dogs. In support, it was stated that a significant number of dogs are being imported into the UK from countries where both ear cropping and tail docking remain legal, and that these dogs are being used to create a larger and more diverse gene pool. The Committee was of the view that club shows present an opportunity to allow other breed enthusiasts to see these dogs and to assess their suitability for future use in breeding programmes.

Having considered the proposal the Kennel Club General Committee agreed the following:

Cropped dogs:

From 1st January 2016, the Kennel Club has agreed to introduce a one year trial, to allow cropped eared dogs to be allowed to be brought to the appropriate breed club Championship and Open shows and entered as spectator dogs.

Whilst confirming the above position, the Kennel Club also wishes to clarify that those dogs which have been legally docked may also accompany spectators at any show which permits spectator's dogs, regardless of whether the public pay an admittance fee. This policy is not to be confused with the legally docked dog legislation which prevents dogs being exhibited at Kennel Club licenced shows and does not allow any docked dog to be entered for exhibition where the public pay an admittance fee.

The spectator dog policy allows a society, at its own discretion, to allow spectators to bring any dogs they might have with them into dog shows.

Owners of these dogs are asked to complete a short entry form at the show, which asks for the owners' details, and confirmation that the dog is healthy and will be kept strictly under control. The society retains the discretion to refuse entry if dogs appear unhealthy or are badly controlled.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> On 21st December 2015 press release from the Kennel Club:
> 
> CROPPED EARED DOGS AT SHOWS
> 
> ...


That makes no sense to me.

It will be seen by some as condoning an activity that is illegal in this country. I think it will also encourage people to import puppies if they like the look in order to circumnavigate our laws/rules.

Surely there is a way of increasing the gene pool by choosing pups from a selected litter before they are mutilated?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> That makes no sense to me.
> 
> It will be seen by some as condoning an activity that is illegal in this country. I think it will also encourage people to import puppies if they like the look in order to circumnavigate our laws/rules.
> 
> Surely there is a way of increasing the gene pool by choosing pups from a selected litter before they are mutilated?


People have been importing Dobes with cropped ears for decades and competing with them in IPO as well as using them at stud etc. I doubt very much if that will change. I am not sure I understand the last sentence?

If you want to use a dog for breeding there is no good waiting to see if a pup might grow up to be a suitable dog or not!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> People have been importing Dobes with cropped ears for decades and competing with them in IPO as well as using them at stud etc. I doubt very much if that will change. I am not sure I understand the last sentence?
> 
> If you want to use a dog for breeding there is no good waiting to see if a pup might grow up to be a suitable dog or not!


Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know the ins and outs of the breeding industry. I'm just thinking of ways that pups can avoid being cropped 

I'm surprised that any cropped dogs are allowed to compete in the UK full stop. Makes a bit of a mockery of the rules IMO.

Are dogs only selected for breeding once they are fully grown?

Shame there aren't rules banning the import of cropped dogs into the UK, then foreign breeders might be inclined to leave their dogs ears on


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I don't get why you constantly post controversial threads...
> Why are you on a pet forum again?
> Do you own pets?


What's your problem, huh? I genuinely do not know why lots of cockers and pointers etc. have stumpy tails. Do I own pets? Not relevant. 'Controversial' my flank. This is a FORUM, you're meant to ask questions here that you don't know the answer to. You're not very helpful, are you??


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> That makes no sense to me.
> 
> It will be seen by some as condoning an activity that is illegal in this country. I think it will also encourage people to import puppies if they like the look in order to circumnavigate our laws/rules. Surely there is a way of increasing the gene pool by choosing pups from a selected litter before they are mutilated?


I totally agree with this, as I believe too that had the Kennel Club said no, it would have encouraged those breeders, who want to attend British shows, not to crop ears at least for those dogs they want to use breeding in a British market.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Because they're working dogs


/thread


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

TehSnoipah said:


> What's your problem, huh? I genuinely do not know why lots of cockers and pointers etc. have stumpy tails. Do I own pets? Not relevant. 'Controversial' my flank. This is a FORUM, you're meant to ask questions here that you don't know the answer to. You're not very helpful, are you??


A quick google would take up less of your valuable time


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

TehSnoipah said:


> What's your problem, huh? I genuinely do not know why lots of cockers and pointers etc. have stumpy tails. Do I own pets? Not relevant. 'Controversial' my flank. This is a FORUM, you're meant to ask questions here that you don't know the answer to. You're not very helpful, are you??


Because dogs that work in thick undergrowth or reeds are more likely to catch their tails and injure them. Therefore they are docked to prevent injuries to the tail. That's why its allowed for working purposes,but not for cosmetic ones.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Zaros said:


> I never once realised that 'owning a pet' was a condition that had to be fulfilled before the right of membership could be acquired


I didn't say it was a requirement, but it IS called Pet Forums, not Controversy Forums so I was just curious 
Forgive me for being suspicious of a new member who in the space of a week and a half has posted threads on PeTA, Neutering, Children or Pets (that got closed in part due to this member's behavior), and now Cropping and Docking. 
I tried to give this poster the benefit of the doubt, but this thread added on top of all the others is really making it hard.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know the ins and outs of the breeding industry. I'm just thinking of ways that pups can avoid being cropped
> 
> *I'm surprised that any cropped dogs are allowed to compete in the UK full stop. Makes a bit if a mockery of the rules IMO.*
> 
> ...


Why? Working abilities have nothing to do with ears or tails. Why shouldn't an imported dobe from USA who now lives in France be unable to take part in a competition in UK? That is in no way breaking UK rules for docking or ear cropping.

No, the foreign breeders would still have plenty of customers meanwhile UK gene pool would become even more limited.

Lastly, yes, only a fully grown dog can become part of a breeding program because only looking at a fully grown dog a breeder can see all possible faults that may not go well with their plans. That's why it is always advised that if someone is planning to buy their first breeding bitch or a stud they look for an older pup or a dog so they could clearly see the structure and temperament. Unless of course they have plenty of experience of choosing puppies.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I didn't say it was a requirement, but it IS called Pet Forums, not Controversy Forums so I was just curious
> Forgive me for being suspicious of a new member who in the space of a week and a half has posted threads on PeTA, Neutering, Children or Pets (that got closed in part due to this member's behavior), and now Cropping and Docking.
> I tried to give this poster the benefit of the doubt, but this thread added on top of all the others is really making it hard.


There is without wanting to start a riot or a witch hunt something about the 'new' OP that does set ones spidey(or should that be goat) senses a tingling, and I guess Ouesi feels the same.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

MontyMaude said:


> There is without wanting to start a riot or a witch hunt something about the 'new' OP that does set ones spidey(or should that be goat) senses a tingling, and I guess Ouesi feels the same.


Before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I just want to clarify that is was @MontyMaude who brought up goats, not me! 
(Sorry @MontyMaude, just threw you under the bus there didn't I? )


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Something iffy to me as well when a new member appears to do nothing other than begin taking polls on potentially emotive subjects and being very rude to a few established members at the same time.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I didn't say it was a requirement, but it IS called Pet Forums, not Controversy Forums so I was just curious
> Forgive me for being suspicious of a new member who in the space of a week and a half has posted threads on PeTA,* Neutering, Children or Pets* (that got closed in part due to this member's behavior), and now Cropping and Docking.
> I tried to give this poster the benefit of the doubt, but this thread added on top of all the others is really making it hard.


Commas, it's OK using them, but not so OK if you don't spot them!

Read that as 'Neutering children or pets'

Another one of my classic 'should have gone to Specsavers' moments......


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I didn't say it was a requirement, but it IS called Pet Forums, not Controversy Forums so I was just curious
> Forgive me for being suspicious of a new member who in the space of a week and a half has posted threads on PeTA, Neutering, Children or Pets (that got closed in part due to this member's behavior), and now Cropping and Docking.
> I tried to give this poster the benefit of the doubt, but this thread added on top of all the others is really making it hard.


 But who ultimately decides what subjects can and cannot be discussed or, for that matter, the frequency of any particular subject-controversial or not- if, say for example, a new member comes along and resurrects a thread or raises a subject/topic/issue that's already been debated half to death. If folks aren't interested in the subject matter, then surely isn't it much easier to ignore it completely?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> Commas, it's OK using them, but not so OK if you don't spot them!
> 
> Read that as 'Neutering children or pets'
> 
> Another one of my classic 'should have gone to Specsavers' moments......


OMG I love it 
Now that *would* be a good thread - "Should children be neutered, or only pets?" LOL!


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Zaros said:


> But who ultimately decides what subjects can and cannot be discussed


I believe that would be the mods. 
And again, to clarify, I am not saying this poster can't post these controversial threads (last I checked I'm not a mod and thank god for that). What I asked was WHY post so many controversial threads. 
But as you seem to have taken this poster under your protective wing for whatever reason, I'll leave you to it


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Something iffy when a new member appears to be very rude to established members.


With respect, when I first Joined PF's, all in good faith I might add, Re: Sarplaninacs & Caucasían Ovcharkas, this is exactly what a couple of members here accused me of being. They also stated I had no right to question or challenge members over their beliefs and opinions of breeds we were experienced with.
It was said that warnings were issued to all those who kept such breeds as a matter of course yet time and evidence has shown this not to be true at all.

Presently I am happy to see that the same or similar situation hasn't been experienced by other members who have chosen to keep those same breeds.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> But as you seem to have taken this poster under your protective wing for whatever reason, I'll leave you to it


As I don't consider the OP a lame duck I have no justifiable reason to take him, her or anyone else for that matter, under my protective wing. I fully expect people to stand on their own two feet and do their own mucking out, especially if they've stirred the proverbial sh1t and happened to spill it.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Naughty, naughty, Zaros! You took the first few words and the last few words of my post and missed out the middle bit. 

On one of the polls, things got a little heated as it was, let's say, an emotionally charged subject. The OP then told certain members to "stop getting so worked up".

If you start polls on emotive subjects, the odds are some may get a little 'worked up', particularly if the subject is a sensitive one, (which it was).

That particular thread got closed, thankfully.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

I was just curious as to why I see so many dogs with docked tails. How is that controversial?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

TehSnoipah said:


> I was just curious as to why I see so many dogs with docked tails. How is that controversial?


The topic of cropping and docking is controversial and on this forum it tends to turn in to a shitshow. As do the other topics you have started. But you knew that didn't you? 

My own breed is danes, cropped ears were the norm but that has greatly changed in the last 10 to 15 years, and we now see about 50/50 cropped, natural in the show rings. I expect the popularity of ear cropping will continue to decline, especially as vets who know how to do the procedure well are also in great decline. It's not unusual for folks to have to drive to other states to find a vet who crops.

Tails are not docked, though I've often threatened to dock ours since they're so damned painful when they whack you!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know the ins and outs of the breeding industry. I'm just thinking of ways that pups can avoid being cropped
> 
> I'm surprised that any cropped dogs are allowed to compete in the UK full stop. Makes a bit if a mockery of the rules IMO.
> 
> ...


It is not illegal to OWN a cropped dog, it is only illegal to actually conduct the mutilation.

Yes you cannot select a dog for breeding as a puppy as it may not mature into a suitable animal. Also a lot of health tests can only be conducted when the dog is 12 months of age eg hip and elbow scoring

The dogs ears are left on, they are not removed, just reshaped.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Shame there aren't rules banning the import of cropped dogs into the UK, then foreign breeders might be inclined to leave their dogs ears on


It's a little more complicated than that though. 
Not all imports are being imported to be bred.
Say I get a dog from a breed rescue here in the states. The dog has cropped ears. I didn't particularly want a dog with cropped ears, but a dog needs a home, and we have a home, so we have this dog. Then my job requires me to move overseas for a few years, so of course I bring my dogs with me. Should my dogs be forbidden entry because they're cropped?

On a similar note, a friend of mine has a rescued dane with cropped ears. Every once in a while some do-gooder will verbally chastise her for cropping her dog. She took this dog on at 4 years, already cropped. She was giving the dog a home for crying out loud, yet she still gets an earful for having a dog with cropped ears.


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## Montgomery (Oct 31, 2015)

I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's done under aneasthesia isn't it? Not much different to neutering etc IMO


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

TehSnoipah said:


> I was just curious as to why I see so many dogs with docked tails. How is that controversial?


Actually, your question was: 
*"Why is ear cropping and tail docking breed standard for some breeds?"*
So, slightly different, no? To answer your actual question: because many breed standards were written back in the days when it was acceptable/ needed/ whatever other reason the founders of the breed saw for this. Some countries have no ban for these procedures and the breed standards are kept the same.
To answer your other question: I assume you live in a country that doesn't have a law banning tail docking or ear cropping. 
Really not that difficult, eh?


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Montgomery said:


> I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's done under aneasthesia isn't it? Not much different to neutering etc IMO


You better Brace yourself!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Montgomery said:


> I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's done* under aneasthesia *isn't it? Not much different to neutering etc IMO


I'm not sure it's always with puppies


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Ummm pardon me @ouesi but I don't have a dog


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Montgomery said:


> I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's done under aneasthesia isn't it? Not much different to neutering etc IMO


Ear cropping is done under general anesthesia at around 8 to 10 weeks of age. Which brings in the real question of risking general anesthesia on a very young puppy for what amounts to a cosmetic procedure. 
Neutering is done at a much later age (usually) and has a larger benefit than just cosmetics as it helps owners who lack the skill and/or knowledge to prevent their dogs from breeding and adding to the pet overpopulation crisis. 
In bitches the risk of pyometra is very real, I personally will never have an unsprayed bitch because pyo scares me that much. I might be convinced to do an ovarian sparing spay...

Tail docking is not done under general anesthesia or with any pain killers that I know of.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Montgomery said:


> I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's done under aneasthesia isn't it? Not much different to neutering etc IMO


For me, what's wrong with it is that it's more about fashion than canine welfare.

We have a reason to neuter. It's not cosmetic. Some working breeds if used to work can still be docked. So if there is a reason docking can take place (by a vet). But to mutilate an animal for fashion ..because it looks good should not be a way of life in 2016. In my opinion.

And fyi puppies were often docked by their breeder without anaesthetic.

J


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Rott lover said:


> Ummm pardon me @ouesi but I don't have a dog


*sigh*
I asked the OP why they joined PF. 
I did not say "you're not welcome here unless you have a pet." I simply asked why they joined as from where I'm sitting it looks like they joined to cause controversy. Which is fine if that's what they want, I was simply curious.

For the record, the last poster who roused my suspicions stole videos of a moderator's since passed dogs playing and posted them as his own. There are some hurtful people out there.... 
My BS-o-meter is pretty accurate no matter how much flack I get for it


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Do you own pets?


http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/greedy-cat.419751/#post-1064438641


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Satori said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/greedy-cat.419751/#post-1064438641


Ah thank you!
Though I have to chuckle that it was a food thread - because those don't get contentious do they? 
NO, I am not suggesting that was posted as a controversial thread, I just found the irony kind of funny


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Oh god, only just got done with this debate elsewhere. I tell you, there are some really ludicrous 'excuses' for cropping that I find shocking to be honest.

Don't think I have the energy to invest into a similar discussion.....


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

In the past in France, Briards ears were cropped to stop them been ripped off when protecting sheep from wolfs and bears but has not been done for a long time. As far as I know it's still done the USA.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Taken from the research I have given a link to.
http://archive.scottish.parliament....ons/petitionsubmissions/sub-09/09-PE1230H.pdf
The overall weighted risk of tail injuries in dogs in Great Britain was estimated to be 0.23 per cent per year. The risk of tail injuries found in the present study indicates that tail injuries are very rare, and the approximated risk of tail injuries in working dogs was only slightly higher at 0.29 per cent

Another article that may help those with questions https://www.researchgate.net/profil...the_issues/links/00b4953a37c072e4af000000.pdf


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Happy Paws said:


> In the past in France, Briards ears were cropped to stop them been ripped off when protecting sheep from wolfs and bears but has not been done for a long time. As far as I know it's still done the USA.


Same as danes, the practice is losing favor. 
It's not required by the breed standard. As far as I know (happy to be corrected) I don't think there are any AKC breeds where ear cropping is a requirement to show in the breed ring. I think docking is still required in some breeds, but I don't think ear cropping is.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Same as danes, the practice is losing favor.
> It's not required by the breed standard. As far as I know (happy to be corrected) I don't think there are any AKC breeds where ear cropping is a requirement to show in the breed ring. I think docking is still required in some breeds, but I don't think ear cropping is.


Yeah, Australian shepherds in USA unfortunately lose points in the show ring if their tail is longer than 3 inches i.e. not properly docked or natural. So it is pretty much impossible for a dog to become a champion if European standards have adapted to the docking ban thank god.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

ouesi said:


> NO, I am not suggesting that was posted as a controversial thread


Then you must be a trusting soul . Call me a cynic but have been anticipating some hircine humour since I heard about the greedy cat.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Picklelily said:


> Taken from the research I have given a link to.
> http://archive.scottish.parliament....ons/petitionsubmissions/sub-09/09-PE1230H.pdf
> The overall weighted risk of tail injuries in dogs in Great Britain was estimated to be 0.23 per cent per year. The risk of tail injuries found in the present study indicates that tail injuries are very rare, and the approximated risk of tail injuries in working dogs was only slightly higher at 0.29 per cent
> 
> Another article that may help those with questions https://www.researchgate.net/profil...the_issues/links/00b4953a37c072e4af000000.pdf


A little deceiving those figures as they seem to cover all breeds. I wonder what the figures would be for just working Spaniels?

Also vets only see those that are very bad. many working spaniels have to be retired or lose working days because of injured tails

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2014/03/27/vr.102041
"Undocked spaniels and hunt point retrievers (HPRs) were at greatest risk of tail injury with 56.6 per cent of undocked spaniels and 38.5 per cent of undocked HPRs sustaining at least one tail injury during the season"

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Tail-injuries-in-working-dogs-b34.aspx

https://scottishgovernment.presscentre.com/News/Working-dog-tail-docking-204c.aspx


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> That makes no sense to me.
> 
> *It will be seen by some as condoning an activity that is illegal in this country. I think it will also encourage people to import puppies if they like the look in order to circumnavigate our laws/rules.*
> 
> Surely there is a way of increasing the gene pool by choosing pups from a selected litter before they are mutilated?


That went through my mind, too.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

TehSnoipah said:


> What's your problem, huh? I genuinely do not know why lots of cockers and pointers etc. have stumpy tails. Do I own pets? Not relevant. 'Controversial' my flank. This is a FORUM, you're meant to ask questions here that you don't know the answer to.* You're not very helpful, are you??*


And you aren't very courteous.

Baaaaaaaaaaa!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

lostbear said:


> And you aren't very courteous.
> 
> Baaaaaaaaaaa!


That's a sheep. Goats go meeeeeeeeeee (with a hard E of course)


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I am very embarrassed to admit it took me a good few minutes to realise what the reference to goats was about . I am actively trying to avoid writing an article on the concept of marriage and motherhood within travelling cultures (which of course is due in tomorrow at midnight) so this was a nice rest bite .


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## StrawberryBlonde (May 27, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> In the past in France, Briards ears were cropped to stop them been ripped off when protecting sheep from wolfs and bears but has not been done for a long time. As far as I know it's still done the USA.


Aww nooo, I cant even imagine a Briard with cropped ears :Arghh They still do it to Giant Schnauzers too...morons.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Siskin said:


> That's a sheep. Goats go meeeeeeeeeee (with a hard E of course)


Thank you - my second language is dog and it largely consists of bum-sniffing and posturing (though I'm told my persistent annoying whine is faultlessly pronounced), and my grasp of Goat is pretty basic (though I did once eat a tee-shirt).

I was trying to work out in my head how goats pronounced Goatish, but couldn't do it. Now I know


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Thank you - my second language is dog and it largely consists of bum-sniffing and posturing (though I'm told my persistent annoying whine is faultlessly pronounced), and my grasp of Goat is pretty basic (though I did once eat a tee-shirt).
> 
> I was trying to work out in my head how goats pronounced Goatish, but couldn't do it. Now I know


You learn so much on this forum, amazing isn't it.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Siskin said:


> *You learn so much on this forum, amazing isn't it*.


My life will never be the same, certainly, since I began to get an education at this prestigious establishment.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I wonder how much ear altering (not cropping) still goes on. Years ago when I was working for a vet the other nurse was going to show a sheltie for someone. The ears were not quite correct so she brought the dog in when no vets were around and surgically altered them. I have to say I was horrified that she would think it was ok to do this - but you do have to wonder if it still happens even if it is illegal.

We used to dock a lot of puppies - tbh I could see nothing wrong with it. Puppies came in with mum. A puppy would be picked up and would squeak before it was docked, not squeak any more while it was done and the whole litter would be quiet and sleeping by the time the client left. A lot of people use an elastrator , the same as is used for lambs. We castrate calves with one. They sometimes cause a few minutes discomfort but more often is not noticed. It is a fraction of the discomfort we are forced to do by law with for example, eartagging calves and now every puppy is going to be microchipped which I would say will cause far more pain than docking.

It is a difficult one. I am definitely against cropping but is that because it was banned before I was involved in dogs - though it does not sit right to give a dog a GA to surgically alter something for not good reason. So long as docking and dewclaw removal is carried out at the correct time of a few days old I am not sure there is a problem - so long as it is done by someone who is qualified and experienced.


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## Jp kp (Mar 14, 2013)

I have 2 gsp's. 1 tail undocked and 1 tail docked. (Approx 1/3rd of the tail removed) my undocked dogs tail can wag with so much speed and power that he has hurt it before on a door frame! Luckily it didn't split open. Tails are notorious for not not healing well once damaged. 
Functional docking i am comfortable with, cosmetic docking is wrong.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Jp kp said:


> I have 2 gsp's. 1 tail undocked and 1 tail docked. (Approx 1/3rd of the tail removed) my undocked dogs tail can wag with so much speed and power that he has hurt it before on a door frame! Luckily it didn't split open. Tails are notorious for not not healing well once damaged.
> Functional docking i am comfortable with, cosmetic docking is wrong.


Dalmatians have the same sort of tail and they are not docked, as do many other breeds. Easy cure, keep them miserable


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Dalmatians have the same sort of tail and they are not docked, as do many other breeds. Easy cure, keep them miserable


I have a weimie with a full tail, who hunts to his hearts consent given the opportunity and has never had a tail injury...now his ears!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Same as danes, the practice is losing favor.
> It's not required by the breed standard. As far as I know (happy to be corrected) I don't think there are any AKC breeds where ear cropping is a requirement to show in the breed ring. I think docking is still required in some breeds, but I don't think ear cropping is.


You are correct as far as I am aware, the standard for most states "cropped or uncropped the latter preferred" or "normally cropped", the problem is in some breeds, the standard gives the requirements for how the cropped ear should look but not the uncropped, so while its not a requirement dogs without cropped ears can and do get penalised for having natural ears. Rather like when undocked dogs were first shown, there was no standard for a tail, so having one was often penalised.

I personally have no issues with the KC allowing cropped dogs as spectator dogs, it was always down to the club anyway. So the KC have allowed it, there have always been cropped spectator dogs.. I don't like chopping bits off dogs full stop unless it's proven to be detrimental to their health to keep them, don't believe in lobbing bits off just in case! And I had docked dogs!!

If they were allowed to dock again, I'd show with a full tailed dog or just not show.. Showing shouldn't involve chopping bits of your dog to win, that included dew claws..


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## Jp kp (Mar 14, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Dalmatians have the same sort of tail and they are not docked, as do many other breeds. Easy cure, keep them miserable


Made me chuckle, keep them miserable!


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Dalmatians have the same sort of tail and they are not docked, as do many other breeds. Easy cure, keep them miserable


Danes and greyhounds have awful tails IMO. They're all bone, hurt like hell when they hit you, and both breeds are notorious for "happy tail". I've always wondered why neither breed is docked, especially since danes were traditionally cropped. 
OH says you can't dock a dane, they're too tall, they'll fall over


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

-


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

lostbear said:


> And you aren't very courteous.
> 
> Baaaaaaaaaaa!


Too much cooking sherry m'dear...
Yep. Stick to dog. Undocked. Docked might stutter.

Unhelpful auto text put it as dicked.
Premonition?
Lamas, goats and sheep have very docked tails...I blame wolves. In sheepskin. Also docked. Or dicked.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> It is not illegal to OWN a cropped dog, it is only illegal to actually conduct the mutilation.
> 
> *I know that. But, if it was then it would be less likely to happen to dogs destined for the UK. Anything that makes the practise undesirable is good in my book.*
> 
> ...


*I realise that they are not removed, just mutilated  IMO *


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> It's a little more complicated than that though.
> Not all imports are being imported to be bred.
> Say I get a dog from a breed rescue here in the states. The dog has cropped ears. I didn't particularly want a dog with cropped ears, but a dog needs a home, and we have a home, so we have this dog. Then my job requires me to move overseas for a few years, so of course I bring my dogs with me. Should my dogs be forbidden entry because they're cropped?
> 
> On a similar note, a friend of mine has a rescued dane with cropped ears. Every once in a while some do-gooder will verbally chastise her for cropping her dog. She took this dog on at 4 years, already cropped. She was giving the dog a home for crying out loud, yet she still gets an earful for having a dog with cropped ears.


Both tricky situations and no idea how to get round them.

Shame the problem exists at all


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Jp kp said:


> I have 2 gsp's. 1 tail undocked and 1 tail docked. (Approx 1/3rd of the tail removed) my undocked dogs tail can wag with so much speed and power that he has hurt it before on a door frame!*Luckily it didn't split open. Tails are notorious for not not healing well once damaged. *
> Functional docking i am comfortable with, cosmetic docking is wrong.


A friend of mine had a dalmatian with a similar problem. His tail used to split open when he wagged and hit it against the wall, doors etc. She was forced to have him docked for his own good.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Dalmatians have the same sort of tail and they are not docked, as do many other breeds. Easy cure, keep them miserable


Whoops! Have just made a similar comment.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Montgomery said:


> I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's done under aneasthesia isn't it? Not much different to neutering etc IMO


Except that neutering has a purpose and is not solely for looks?

I can't believe that it is entirely pain/discomfort free for the dog post surgery either, plus the risk of infection or complications - for no good purpose.

Plus I bet a number of dogs are cropped by someone other than a vet, but who would know? How would those dogs be anesthetized?

The practise is wicked IMO.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Except that neutering has a purpose and is not solely for looks?
> 
> I can't believe that it is entirely pain/discomfort free for the dog post surgery either, plus the risk of infection or complications - for no good purpose.
> 
> ...


Some breeds have to have their ears bandaged and 'set' for up to a year after the initial surgery too, and this can cause discomfort and irritation.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> Some breeds have to have their ears bandaged and 'set' for up to a year after the initial surgery too, and this can cause discomfort and irritation.


The after care is extensive in long crops like Dobes and Danes. 
Weekly taping for months. And even after taping some dogs end up with crop flops, so you go through all that and still end up with floppy ears.

To be fair though, the taping should not hurt if the owner is using the right equipment and adhesive remover before taking the tape off. Danes and Dobes are weirdo dogs anyway who love any and all interactions with their owners, so when owners say the puppy loves ear taping time, they probably do, it's getting pets and attention as far as the puppy is concerned


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> *I wonder how much ear altering *(not cropping) still goes on. Years ago when I was working for a vet the other nurse was going to show a sheltie for someone. The ears were not quite correct so she brought the dog in when no vets were around and surgically altered them. I have to say I was horrified that she would think it was ok to do this - but you do have to wonder if it still happens even if it is illegal.
> 
> We used to dock a lot of puppies - tbh I could see nothing wrong with it. Puppies came in with mum. A puppy would be picked up and would squeak before it was docked, not squeak any more while it was done and the whole litter would be quiet and sleeping by the time the client left. A lot of people use an elastrator , the same as is used for lambs. We castrate calves with one. They sometimes cause a few minutes discomfort but more often is not noticed. It is a fraction of the discomfort we are forced to do by law with for example, eartagging calves and now every puppy is going to be microchipped which I would say will cause far more pain than docking.
> 
> It is a difficult one. I am definitely against cropping but is that because it was banned before I was involved in dogs - though it does not sit right to give a dog a GA to surgically alter something for not good reason. So long as docking and dewclaw removal is carried out at the correct time of a few days old I am not sure there is a problem - so long as it is done by someone who is qualified and experienced.


I have read of this sort of cosmetic dog surgery before and think it's appalling! Not only because it a) puts the dog through an unnecessary surgical procedure (and all surgery carries a risk - reaction to anaesthetic, infection etc) and b) because it is cheating - but c) when such dogs win prestigious competitions and are bred from _because_ they are such prime examples of their breed, the owner is actually defrauding whoever is paying for their stud dog, or paying top dollar for a pup from their bitch's litter - and worse, could actually be "doubling up" a fault and perpetuating/exaggerating it.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

rona said:


> A little deceiving those figures as they seem to cover all breeds. I wonder what the figures would be for just working Spaniels?
> 
> Also vets only see those that are very bad. many working spaniels have to be retired or lose working days because of injured tails
> 
> ...


The research I quote did discuss the statistical difference in working spaniels and Pointers, they are clearly separated within the tables. Yes there was a slight statistical increase in tail injuries in working dogs and another increase in working spaniels and HPR's but nothing like as high as you have quoted. The paper did at least have comparative control groups, a clearly defined definition of tail injury and a discussion of the survey techniques..

I'm sorry but I cannot make a judgement on the validity of the percentages in the articles you have linked to. They are only abstracts which discuss neither the methodology nor the definition of tail injury. You would also need a comparative control group.

What was their definition of tail injury?
How was the information gathered?
What was the survey design?
Did they purely select on dogs who visited the vets or did they survey shooting parties, did they allow for a statistical bias if they only surveyed those who actively work dogs? 
Was there a control group?

After all we could see paw injuries at least once in a working season? Would anyone suggest we remove paws or insist that dogs on shoots wear boots for injury prevention. A comparison of other preventable injuries would also be interesting.

As I'm sure you are aware in the case of both pieces of research that we have quoted, research is only as good as the methods, hypothesis and researcher. I would like to read the full pieces you have quoted since they show a massive difference in the analysis compared to the several pieces I have read. These articles look interesting

On working dogs I'm open to the idea that tail injury could be an argument for docking, however I like to see thoroughly researched argument. This is such an emotive subject it is open to manipulation of the statistics on both sides of the argument.

Thank you for the links I hope at some stage to be able to read the full papers.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Jp kp said:


> I have 2 gsp's. 1 tail undocked and 1 tail docked. (Approx 1/3rd of the tail removed) my undocked dogs tail can wag with so much speed and power that he has hurt it before on a door frame! Luckily it didn't split open. Tails are notorious for not not healing well once damaged.
> Functional docking i am comfortable with, cosmetic docking is wrong.


I completely agree with your decision and reasoning here.

I do however wonder whether in traditionally docked breeds because of docking there hasn't been any selection when breeding for tail "quality" had docking not been available would breeders perhaps have selected for shorter tails, thicker tails or tails with a heavier covering of fat, muscle or hair.

Would certain lines have been noted as more prone to tail injury so perhaps not used as working dogs or bred with lines that had a lower predisposition for tail injury.

It is when you think about it one of those subjects that has endless fascinating lines open for discussion, which is perhaps why it is forever argued about.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Picklelily said:


> I do however wonder whether in traditionally docked breeds because of docking there hasn't been any selection when breeding for tail "quality" had docking not been available would breeders perhaps have selected for shorter tails, thicker tails or tails with a heavier covering of fat, muscle or hair.
> 
> Would certain lines have been noted as more prone to tail injury so perhaps not used as working dogs or bred with lines that had a lower predisposition for tail injury..


Good point. Selection. Absolutely.

As you say, fascinating subject open to discussion.

J


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

ouesi said:


> *sigh*
> I asked the OP why they joined PF.
> I did not say "you're not welcome here unless you have a pet." I simply asked why they joined as from where I'm sitting it looks like they joined to cause controversy. Which is fine if that's what they want, I was simply curious.
> 
> ...


It is ok it was meant as a joke so dont get them in a twist i still love ya


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

I think i am going to be the bad guy here.I have read that the majority of the world bans the practice of ears and tails docking.I dont personally see why.Is it because it is ethically wrong?is it because it is inhumane?What is the real reason it is banned.I live in an area where it is not only legal but preferred.All my life growing up the dobys always got the tails and dew claws done first thing and the ears when they were old enough.All the rotts i have ever had have had nubs and i think i would rather keep it that way.I have been whapped by many a tails and i know a mastiff tail is pretty close to a rott and it hurts like he11.I can see the practices changing over the decades but i dont know why it would be just all out banned.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> I think i am going to be the bad guy here.I have read that the majority of the world bans the practice of ears and tails docking.I dont personally see why.Is it because it is ethically wrong?is it because it is inhumane?What is the real reason it is banned.I live in an area where it is not only legal but preferred.All my life growing up the dobys always got the tails and dew claws done first thing and the ears when they were old enough.All the rotts i have ever had have had nubs and i think i would rather keep it that way.I have been whapped by many a tails and i know a mastiff tail is pretty close to a rott and it hurts like he11.I can see the practices changing over the decades but i dont know why it would be just all out banned.


Because, in terms of cropping, it's a cosmetic procedure with no proven health benefits to the dogs. So lots of owners and indeed vets these days look at it as unnecessary and yes, inhumane.

I've said it a few times to those in favour of pro cropping, but why get a Dobe if the ears are such a deal breaker? I've heard some pretty horrible comments regarding the look of a natural Dobe from those pro cropping and I just don't get it. If I wanted a naturally pricked ear breed, I'd get one


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Because, in terms of cropping, it's a cosmetic procedure with no proven health benefits to the dogs. So lots of owners and indeed vets these days look at it as unnecessary and yes, inhumane.
> 
> I've said it a few times to those in favour of pro cropping, but why get a Dobe if the ears are such a deal breaker? I've heard some pretty horrible comments regarding the look of a natural Dobe from those pro cropping and I just don't get it. If I wanted a naturally pricked ear breed, I'd get one


I am not disagreeing with you here in the states the akc is even pushing against the ban.I am not for nor against it but i dont understand why it would matter either way.I think most of it is due to history and that is the way it has been done since the dawn of time(so to speak).I had several dobys that were left all natural and they just look odd.I know the reason they looked odd was that people have a preconceived outlook as to what a doby should look like.When that look doesnt match then they think something is wrong.I will say that of all the dobys i had that had the ears done i never had or remember having any problems with ear problems.The ones that were not done always had ear problems.Between infections and mites there was always something going on.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> I am not disagreeing with you here in the states the akc is even pushing against the ban.I am not for nor against it but i dont understand why it would matter either way.I think most of it is due to history and that is the way it has been done since the dawn of time(so to speak).I had several dobys that were left all natural and they just look odd.I know the reason they looked odd was that people have a preconceived outlook as to what a doby should look like.When that look doesnt match then they think something is wrong.I will say that of all the dobys i had that had the ears done i never had or remember having any problems with ear problems.The ones that were not done always had ear problems.Between infections and mites there was always something going on.


Ah, the whole ear infection argument  This was one thing thrown out as 'proof' that ear cropping has health benefits, but yet the studies and facts out there say differently. I'm yet to see scientific veterinary based studies stating cropping does prevent ear infections and the last discussion I was in with a hard core cropping supporter could not back up her claims, bar one study/article that was anecdotal at best.

I agree though that it's something that is so hard wired into the breed's history and been done for so many generations that people just think it's the right thing to do when it comes to cropping, and as you say, an uncropped/docked Dobe looks totally alien. But that is not a justifiable reason IMO at least to go ahead with the procedure. I'm certainly not keen to put my pyppy through unnecessary surgery for vanity's sake.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2016)

Rott lover said:


> I think i am going to be the bad guy here.I have read that the majority of the world bans the practice of ears and tails docking.I dont personally see why.Is it because it is ethically wrong?is it because it is inhumane?What is the real reason it is banned.I live in an area where it is not only legal but preferred.All my life growing up the dobys always got the tails and dew claws done first thing and the ears when they were old enough.All the rotts i have ever had have had nubs and i think i would rather keep it that way.I have been whapped by many a tails and i know a mastiff tail is pretty close to a rott and it hurts like he11.I can see the practices changing over the decades but i dont know why it would be just all out banned.


Reasons for not cropping ears:
You have to put an 8 week old puppy through GA for no other reason than a cosmetic procedure. There is always a risk with GA, and for a cosmetic procedure, it's just not worth it. 
There is no medical reason to crop, it does not improve the dog's health or quality of life in any way. It does not prevent disease or social issues with dogs (overpopulation).

Reasons not to dock (Dobermans and rotties):
There is no medical reason to dock, it does not prevent disease and neither breed is particularly prone to tail injuries in every day life, or working.
Cropped tails can heal wrong and cause issues for the dog for life.
Dogs use their tails for balance, especially bigger, taller dogs.

Reasons not to remove dew claws (front dew claws):
Dogs use them when running to prevent too much torque on their foot & leg joints.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Ah, the whole ear infection argument  This was one thing thrown out as 'proof' that ear cropping has health benefits, but yet the studies and facts out there say differently. I'm yet to see scientific veterinary based studies stating cropping does prevent ear infections and the last discussion I was in with a hard core cropping supporter could not back up her claims, bar one study/article that was anecdotal at best.
> 
> I agree though that it's something that is so hard wired into the breed's history and been done for so many generations that people just think it's the right thing to do when it comes to cropping, and as you say, an uncropped/docked Dobe looks totally alien. But that is not a justifiable reason IMO at least to go ahead with the procedure. I'm certainly not keen to put my pyppy through unnecessary surgery for vanity's sake.


Not trying to start an argument and just saying that was my experience.I have no data or facts to back it.I know in the days of old these things were done for a reason and even though the reasoning is no longer there everyone is so used to seeing them this way that they dont want to accept them without it


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Reasons for not cropping ears:
> You have to put an 8 week old puppy through GA for no other reason than a cosmetic procedure. There is always a risk with GA, and for a cosmetic procedure, it's just not worth it.
> There is no medical reason to crop, it does not improve the dog's health or quality of life in any way. It does not prevent disease or social issues with dogs (overpopulation).
> 
> ...


I agree with all except the last line.I can not tell you how many dog i have had rip off dew claws while out walking.Every one of them have been from mis judging a curb and shearing it off.Lots of blood and howling dog while trying to get back home and rush to the vet.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> Not trying to start an argument and just saying that was my experience.I have no data or facts to back it.I know in the days of old these things were done for a reason and even though the reasoning is no longer there everyone is so used to seeing them this way that they dont want to accept them without it


I know you wasn't starting an argument  Just that I've heard that reason for cropping thrown out so many times, but without evidence it means nothing.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I thought the reason for ear cropping was to make the dog look fiercer which is a pretty stupid reason. I have never really thought about as it has always been illegal in this country, but if you buy a cropped puppy presumably it has only just been done and you have weeks or months of taping and the risk of infection whether you want to or not. Is that not a big ask for a pet owner.
As for dew claws - I hate them. My collies had them with no problem but the poodles traditionally had them off and now they dont they seem to be very loose and at at an angle and a flipping nuisance for clipping feet with no advantages I can see.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rott lover said:


> I agree with all except the last line.I can not tell you how many dog i have had rip off dew claws while out walking.Every one of them have been from mis judging a curb and shearing it off.Lots of blood and howling dog while trying to get back home and rush to the vet.


How awfully unlucky, nothing like that has happened to any of mine nor anybody I know.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> I agree with all except the last line.I can not tell you how many dog i have had rip off dew claws while out walking.Every one of them have been from mis judging a curb and shearing it off.Lots of blood and howling dog while trying to get back home and rush to the vet.


I have worked with literally 100's of Patrol dogs and never had one rip off a dew claw, , all my pet dogs have had them and no issues. I can't think of anyone who I know in show or working world who has had one ripped off..


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I thought the reason for ear cropping was to make the dog look fiercer which is a pretty stupid reason. I have never really thought about as it has always been illegal in this country, but if you buy a cropped puppy presumably it has only just been done and you have weeks or months of taping and the risk of infection whether you want to or not. Is that not a big ask for a pet owner.
> As for dew claws - I hate them. My collies had them with no problem but the poodles traditionally had them off and now they dont they seem to be very loose and at at an angle and a flipping nuisance for clipping feet with no advantages I can see.


They use dew claws like normal claws to grip and hold things.

Rather like docking and cropping, there are no reason to remove them just in case and even less reason to remove them because they aren't meant to have them in.. Thankfully dew claws removal is also banned in Ireland


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

All in all i can only surmise to say in answer to the op then would be history and this is what has been instilled into people since the beginning that that is what an animal looks like so that is just the way it is.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I thought the reason for ear cropping was to make the dog look fiercer which is a pretty stupid reason. I have never really thought about as it has always been illegal in this country, but if you buy a cropped puppy presumably it has only just been done and you have weeks or months of taping and the risk of infection whether you want to or not. Is that not a big ask for a pet owner.
> As for dew claws - I hate them. My collies had them with no problem but the poodles traditionally had them off and now they dont they seem to be very loose and at at an angle and a flipping nuisance for clipping feet with no advantages I can see.


Usually if you buy a dog that has had this done the healing and taping is already done on the ears and the tails and dew claws have been done and long since healed.If you buy a pup that you want to have the ears done around 3 to 4 months of age.I know around here that if the breeder has to do it they usually wont sell the dog until this is all done and if the dog is sold before this is done then it is the new owners choice and responsibility.Where i am from if it is not done you actually get frowned upon.I know i know big shock.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation_rev_apr_10_2013.pdf


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation_rev_apr_10_2013.pdf


That is very interesting thank you for that.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

My St Bernard had terrible trouble with her dew claws and caught them both several times on high curbs but she was a clumsy soul, she never ripped them off completely but they bled copiously and made her yelp each and every time and one got infected and took a fortnight of antibiotics to clear it, we made the decision to have them removed when she was spayed, but touch wood my two have never had an issue nor have any family dogs so I think she was just very unlucky, but wanted to say that it does and can happen for any of the doubters out there


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

In forty years of owning dogs, I've never had one even damage a dew claw.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MontyMaude said:


> My St Bernard had terrible trouble with her dew claws and caught them both several times on high curbs but she was a clumsy soul, she never ripped them off completely but they bled copiously and made her yelp each and every time and one got infected and took a fortnight of antibiotics to clear it, we made the decision to have them removed when she was spayed, but touch wood my two have never had an issue nor have any family dogs so I think she was just very unlucky, but wanted to say that it does and can happen for any of the doubters out there


It does happen, no one is doubting it, but it doesn't happen enough to warrant them being removed just in case. Some dogs have loose dew claws like they aren't attached, so that's more down to issues with their dogs claws rather than dew claws per sa.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Our Staffy pup, Rudi, ripped a front claw completely out doing zoomies round my lounge.

It hasn't inspired me to have all of her claws removed to be on the safe side.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

I do also want to add what no one seems to have mentioned.

Dogs use their tales and ears as communication! Why would we then chop these bits off to make things more difficult for them?

You can see the difference between dewclaws by giving them a chew and watching them use those claws to grip and hold things! I also think saying its harder to clip dogs with them is a poor reason to want them chopped off!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> They use dew claws like normal claws to grip and hold things.
> 
> Rather like docking and cropping, there are no reason to remove them just in case and even less reason to remove them because they aren't meant to have them in.. Thankfully dew claws removal is also banned in Ireland


My two do not use their dew claws to grip and hold things. They are very loose and at an awkward angle so they easily get caught. One of them was close to having them removed after a few injuries and she hates having them touched as they hurt her. The standard poodles both had theirs removed as pups and it made clipping their feet so much easier both for myself and the dog. The collies had nice tight dew claws which were not a problem.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Meezey said:


> It does happen, no one is doubting it, but it doesn't happen enough to warrant them being removed just in case. Some dogs have loose dew claws like they aren't attached, so that's more down to issues with their dogs claws rather than dew claws per sa.


Oh god no, I didn't mean all dogs should have them removed, I was just saying that some dogs do have issues, but I would just kinda equate it with some hoomans getting badly ingrown toenails, but just wanted to say that some dogs do have issues for and no disrespect but like SB never having an issue or Sweety's post of having dogs for 40 years and never having an issue with dew claws, I just wanted to add the other side, but I'll shut up and go away now.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The ingrowing toenails is a good analogy, just because some individuals may suffer from one at some point does not mean all toenails should be removed.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> The ingrowing toenails is a good analogy, just because some individuals may suffer from one at some point does not mean all toenails should be removed.


there is a huge difference between removing toenails (dogs or human) and snipping off a dew claw at a few days old.


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## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

People are forever stubbing their little toes on things. I, like many people, have broken mine when I was younger through getting it caught on a stray table-leg. Perhaps we should remove all little toes from babies when they are born!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> My two do not use their dew claws to grip and hold things. They are very loose and at an awkward angle so they easily get caught. One of them was close to having them removed after a few injuries and she hates having them touched as they hurt her. The standard poodles both had theirs removed as pups and it made clipping their feet so much easier both for myself and the dog. The collies had nice tight dew claws which were not a problem.


As I just said.


Meezey said:


> It does happen, no one is doubting it, but it doesn't happen enough to warrant them being removed just in case. Some dogs have loose dew claws like they aren't attached, so that's more down to issues with their dogs claws rather than dew claws per sa.


Making grooming easy isn't a reason to remove dew claws imho.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

caju said:


> People are forever stubbing their little toes on things. I, like many people, have broken mine when I was younger through getting it caught on a stray table-leg. Perhaps we should remove all little toes from babies when they are born!


I have considered that actually.The doctor has told me that both my little toes are nothing but shrapnel in skin.The bones have both been completely shattered and have stopped trying to heal.They have talked about either reconstructing them out of pins or just amputating them.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blitz said:


> there is a huge difference between removing toenails (dogs or human) and snipping off a dew claw at a few days old.


But, they're not just snipped off, unfortunately.

The front dew claws have to be removed from the root, otherwise, they grow back. They have to be 'dug' out, rather than cut off.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> there is a huge difference between removing toenails (dogs or human) and snipping off a dew claw at a few days old.


Precisely, the latter is much worse


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

"ouesi said:


> Reasons not to dock (Dobermans and rotties):
> There is no medical reason to dock, it does not prevent disease and neither breed is particularly prone to tail injuries in every day life, or working.
> Cropped tails can heal wrong and cause issues for the dog for life.
> Dogs use their tails for balance, especially bigger, taller dogs.


Even if the docked tail heals properly it can still cause issues - studies on mice have shown that just removing the tip of their tail causes hyperalgesia later in life, and there is some evidence that this is true of docked dogs.
Docking tails for cosmetic reasons is just cruelty, IMO.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2016)

Okay, let's clarify a few things about dew claws though.
Rear dew claws that are normally floppy and unattached tend to be more problematic than front ones. 
Front ones the only issues I have had are with the toe nail being ripped and bleeding from the quick of the nail, not the leg. But that's no different than an active dog getting ANY toe nail injured, it happens, and we don't say "remove the toes" to prevent nail injury. 
The fact that my great dane has twice now ripped a front dew claw while running just confirms to me that she actually uses them and needs them. As an owner I just make sure to keep her nails a little shorter and more beveled with the dremel.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Okay, let's clarify a few things about dew claws though.
> Rear dew claws that are normally floppy and unattached tend to be more problematic than front ones.
> Front ones the only issues I have had are with the toe nail being ripped and bleeding from the quick of the nail, not the leg. But that's no different than an active dog getting ANY toe nail injured, it happens, and we don't say "remove the toes" to prevent nail injury.
> The fact that my great dane has twice now ripped a front dew claw while running just confirms to me that she actually uses them and needs them. As an owner I just make sure to keep her nails a little shorter and more beveled with the dremel.


OK ok now remember to be mindful and compassionate and loving kind i am not trying to piss you off.....lol and BREATHE:Wideyed


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2016)

Rott lover said:


> OK ok now remember to be mindful and compassionate and loving kind i am not trying to piss you off.....lol and BREATHE:Wideyed


I am not remotely pissed off, not sure what about my post made you think that *shrug*


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Most breeds don't have rear dew claws though... They are rare except in certain breeds..


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I am not remotely pissed off, not sure what about my post made you think that *shrug*


Nothing i am just poking fun a bit lol


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Skip's dew claws annoy me something chronic! They're quite loose, a nightmare to cut (odd angle) and sometimes he chews on them. He's never damaged one and not once -even given my grievance with them- had I wished they weren't there or had been removed.

As for cropping. It hasn't been the 'done' thing since the dawn of time. And the whole argument about infection etc, makes me laugh. How can an exposed ear canal be less susceptible to ear infections?

I do not and will never agree with any mutilation that is done out of sheer vanity of the owner. It's aesthetic. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like Dobermans with natural ears, then maybe they're not the breed for you. If you can't take them as nature intended and love them as a _breed _rather than a reflection of 'status' or your own vanity and what you personally prefer (looks wise) -then why own them? I really fail to grasp that.

Surely, you love a breed first and foremost because of breed characteristics and traits? There must be something more appealing about the breed than a preferred look?
Why does owner vanity even come in to it?
At what point is it okay for us to mutilate dog's bodies because some prefer pointed ears? I just can't grasp it. I really don't understand the pro-cropping stand point.

I love to see a Dobe with a full wagging tail and floppy ears. I really love Rotties tails and I'll always appreciate a well bred natural looking dog over a cosmetically enhanced appearance.

If you could ask the dogs, I wonder what they'd prefer? Can't imagine they'd be in the 'pro-cropping' camp!


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## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Most breeds don't have rear dew claws though... They are rare except in certain breeds..


Yeah I never even knew this was a thing! Which breeds have rear dew claws?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

caju said:


> Yeah I never even knew this was a thing! Which breeds have rear dew claws?


Beauceron Briard Pyrenees have double rear dew claws....


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The Irish Setter I had about forty odd years ago had rear dew claws (apparently) I never saw them, the breeder informed me they had been removed. I didn't think much of it as in those days I was still fairly innocent aboutdogs and different breeds. He was the first dog I had bought myself although there had been a family dog that I grew up with. Where the dew claws had been, there was a patch of black leathery skin similar to paw pads.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Occasionally Shar-Pei are born with rear dew claws which are considered a fault in the breed.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> Occasionally Shar-Pei are born with rear dew claws which are considered a fault in the breed.


Yep, hence removal..... For me faults shouldn't be chopped off.

Which is why I am glad it is banned in Ireland


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Yep, hence removal..... For me faults shouldn't be chopped off.
> 
> Which is why I am glad it is banned in Ireland


Rear dew claws are usually only attached by skin and really are a pain for getting caught on things. A pair of scissors at a few days old should remove them - in the same way that the odd baby has an extra finger or toe that can be easily removed. I am sure Irish breeders remove them too.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

A broken toe or a cut pad normally heals with no further issues except maybe arthritis later in life. A split tail rarely truly heals and can leave a dog in much pain for the rest of it's life


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Rear dew claws are usually only attached by skin and really are a pain for getting caught on things. A pair of scissors at a few days old should remove them - in the same way that the odd baby has an extra finger or toe that can be easily removed. I am sure Irish breeders remove them too.


Simple fact it in most breeds it's a fault, so humans being human rather than breed out the fault cut it off.

It's banned, so if they remove them in Ireland they are breaking the law the same way as they would be docking tails.

I doubt many people run round cutting extra fingers of their children.

It always amazes me that people are so blase about cutting body parts of animals.


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## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Beauceron Briard Pyrenees have double rear dew claws....


Wow yeah! I just googled the breed and there seem to be more pictures of their double dewclaws than of the actual dog itself! It does look quite strange!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Someone in Ireland in one of my breed groups Meezey has just had a monster of a double dew claw removed from both back legs of her puppy. Vet said it was the better option as they were an accident waiting to happen. Is that legal? Must admit, I'd never seen dew claws quite like it!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Someone in Ireland in one of my breed groups Meezey has just had a monster of a double dew claw removed from both back legs of her puppy. Vet said it was the better option as they were an accident waiting to happen. Is that legal? Must admit, I'd never seen dew claws quite like it!


Yes, same rules apply to dew claw removal as docking if it's required it has to be done by a vet.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2016)

Meezey said:


> I doubt many people run round cutting extra fingers of their children.


They do 
Over the years I've met several kids born with an extra finger that they had surgically removed when they were babies. It's not that uncommon at all, it's called polydactyly and pediatric orthopedic and plastic surgeons usually do the surgery.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> They do
> Over the years I've met several kids born with an extra finger that they had surgically removed when they were babies. It's not that uncommon at all, it's called polydactyly and pediatric orthopedic and plastic surgeons usually do the surgery.


I mean that parents don't just cut them off. I know they are surgically removed. Likening digit remove on children to a breeder just snipping off a dew claw with scissors is hardly likening apple to apple...


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I mean that parents don't just cut them off. I know they are surgically removed. Likening digit remove on children to a breeder just snipping off a dew claw with scissors is hardly likening apple to apple...


wow do breeders really do that.We had always taken them in to the vet to have it done.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Dear God :Jawdrop

Phoebes due claws aren't very secure and just hang there all wiggly. If they were genuinely causing her any problems I'd take her to the vets. What would possess someone to take a pair of scissors to an animal and chop off a piece of their body


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

What I find interesting (before I go any further this is a general comment, and in no way is it directed at anyone in this thread) is that whilst the majority of pet owners would recoil in horror at people tattooing their pets (cosmetic reasons, not for ID reasons). Yet it's OK to chop bits off just "in case" they cause issues further down the line, or just because they like the look...

It confuses the hell out of me


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

This whole subject confuses me.I am neither for nor against it.I am very conflicted about the whole thing because i can see both sides of this.That is why i am making all the comments and asking the questions i am.Where i live it is legal.Always has been and probably always will be.However that doesnt mean it should be.I think there are just so many different views on this and it will always cause conflict


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Legal or not, I just simply can not understand why people would chop bits off of their pets for nothing more than they prefer the look...Once a problem has arisen and a vet has advised docking, cropping or dew claw removal is necessary is entirely different IMO


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Rott lover said:


> This whole subject confuses me.I am neither for nor against it.I am very conflicted about the whole thing because i can see both sides of this.That is why i am making all the comments and asking the questions i am.Where i live it is legal.Always has been and probably always will be.However that doesnt mean it should be.I think there are just so many different views on this and it will always cause conflict


I'm guessing declawing of cats is also legal in your area, which to me is absolutely barbaric too, sorry just cos it's legal doesn't make it alright.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> What I find interesting (before I go any further this is a general comment, and in no way is it directed at anyone in this thread) is that whilst the majority of pet owners would recoil in horror at people tattooing their pets (cosmetic reasons, not for ID reasons). Yet it's OK to chop bits off just "in case" they cause issues further down the line, or just because they like the look...
> 
> It confuses the hell out of me


I had Bob's rear dewies removed at the same time as his neuter because I worried about them & he is a very clumsy dog, at the time I thought it was in his best interests.

Rogue's foster mum got the pups' done at a few days old so we didn't get a say in it.

Again, I never really gave it much thought as it seemed a 'normal' thing to do.

Having seen how well Gypsy copes having them, I wouldn't be concerned about putting a dog through that sort of unnecessary surgery again, on the off chance that they may cause issue in future.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

MontyMaude said:


> I'm guessing declawing of cats is also legal in your area, which to me is absolutely barbaric too, sorry just cos it's legal doesn't make it alright.


Yes it is also legal and i never said any of it is right.I cant however say i disagree 100% either.I am as i said neither for or against it.I was brought up raising dobys and all the puppys except a few had dew claws and tails done right away and the new owners always had the ears done.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

It has always been a part of my life with all the puppys we had and all the dogs for that matter.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> I had Bob's rear dewies removed at the same time as his neuter because I worried about them & he is a very clumsy dog, at the time I thought it was in his best interests.
> 
> Rogue's foster mum got the pups' done at a few days old so we didn't get a say in it.
> 
> ...


I guess this is kind of the way i still see it.I am not saying anyones view point is wrong but when you grew up with this being a normal thing and people frowned at you when it wasnt done it kind of gets ingrained into you.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Simple fact it in most breeds it's a fault, so humans being human rather than breed out the fault cut it off.
> 
> It's banned, so if they remove them in Ireland they are breaking the law the same way as they would be docking tails.
> 
> ...


one of my nephews had an extra finger removed. So far as I know just a pair of scissors and a snip at birth.



Nettles said:


> Dear God :Jawdrop
> 
> Phoebes due claws aren't very secure and just hang there all wiggly. If they were genuinely causing her any problems I'd take her to the vets. What would possess someone to take a pair of scissors to an animal and chop off a piece of their body


How do you think the vet would do it. Many experienced breeders do their own docking and dew claws, far more efficiently than many vets in the same way that farmers castrate and dock lambs and castrate and disbud calves.
It is illegal to dock in Scotland but I am sure many breeders do it and I am sure they do in Ireland as well. They only have to cross the border to do it legally anyway.

It used to be normal to remove back dewclaws surgically when a dog was neutered on the rare occasion the breeder had not done it.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> one of my nephews had an extra finger removed. So far as I know just a pair of scissors and a snip at birth.
> 
> How do you think the vet would do it. Many experienced breeders do their own docking and dew claws, far more efficiently than many vets in the same way that farmers castrate and dock lambs and castrate and disbud calves.
> It is illegal to dock in Scotland but I am sure many breeders do it and I am sure they do in Ireland as well. They only have to cross the border to do it legally anyway.
> ...


Shudders and feels a bit ill


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.facebook.com/taildocking/?fref=ts


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> one of my nephews had an extra finger removed. So far as I know just a pair of scissors and a snip at birth.
> 
> How do you think the vet would do it. Many experienced breeders do their own docking and dew claws, far more efficiently than many vets in the same way that farmers castrate and dock lambs and castrate and disbud calves.
> It is illegal to dock in Scotland but I am sure many breeders do it and I am sure they do in Ireland as well. They only have to cross the border to do it legally anyway.
> ...


Your nephew was born in a uk hospital and you think they chopped his extra finger off with a pair of scissors without any type of surgical procedure or anaesthetic?

I had a small skin tag removed that was less barbaric than that.

I would like to assume if I took Phoebe to the vets to have a due claw removed, the vet wouldn't just lift a pair of scissors, chop it off and send us on our way.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

rona said:


> https://www.facebook.com/taildocking/?fref=ts


If that is a video or something about breeders doing it themselves i will pass :Vomit


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rott lover said:


> If that is a video or something about breeders doing it themselves i will pass :Vomit


No. That's illegal


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nettles said:


> Your nephew was born in a uk hospital and you think they chopped his extra finger off with a pair of scissors without any type of surgical procedure or anaesthetic?
> 
> I had a small skin tag removed that was less barbaric than that.
> 
> I would like to assume if I took Phoebe to the vets to have a due claw removed, the vet wouldn't just lift a pair of scissors, chop it off and send us on our way.


obviously if you took a dog in that was more than a few days old the vet would not do it with a pair of scissors. Few vets nowadays remove dewclaws but I can assure you a pair of scissors is adequate when they are done at the correct age especially for rear ones that do not have joints.

How old were you when you had your skin tag removed. Babies spare digits are often only attached by skin so a pair of scissors is a good enough way to do it. Obviously not if they go through joints.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> obviously if you took a dog in that was more than a few days old the vet would not do it with a pair of scissors. Few vets nowadays remove dewclaws but I can assure you a pair of scissors is adequate when they are done at the correct age especially for rear ones that do not have joints.
> 
> How old were you when you had your skin tag removed. Babies spare digits are often only attached by skin so a pair of scissors is a good enough way to do it. Obviously not if they go through joints.


Ewwwwwwwwww ok i am out of this now you are going to make me puke lol


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rona said:


> https://www.facebook.com/taildocking/?fref=ts


Those tail injuries are gross Rona! The saddest one I ever saw was a lab (which obviously would not have been docked) in quarantine kennels for 6 months, It repeatedly beat its tail on the kennel wall and spent most of the time being treated for the injury. It also got the runs almost permanently so was hardly ever fed as kennel rules were the runs equalled 24 hours starvation. When the 6 months was up it did not settle at home and was rehomed. It put me right off quarantine.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rott lover said:


> Ewwwwwwwwww ok i am out of this now you are going to make me puke lol


but you are the one who has had puppies with cropped ears which most people think unnecessary and barbaric. Was it ok cos you did not see it happen. And dont say the puppy had a GA, how sore do you think it was while it was healing.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Nope no GA.Couldnt have been that sore as i never heard them cry.Which by the way was only a couple of dogs with the ear cropping.As posted before the puppys we kept were kept all natural.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rott lover said:


> Nope no GA.Couldnt have been that sore as i never heard them cry.Which by the way was only a couple of dogs with the ear cropping.As posted before the puppys we kept were kept all natural.


ouch , poor little things. I thought they were done at 8 weeks so surely illegal not to use GA.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> but you are the one who has had puppies with cropped ears which most people think unnecessary and barbaric. Was it ok cos you did not see it happen. And dont say the puppy had a GA, how sore do you think it was while it was healing.


however from what my mom said they actually held a pattern on the ear and traced the pattern and then put some kind of numbing agent on them and use a scalpel to cut the ears.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rott lover said:


> Ewwwwwwwwww ok i am out of this now you are going to make me puke lol


http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-g...y-surgeons/supporting-guidance/miscellaneous/

Dew claws
"anaesthetic must be administered except for 'the amputation of the dew claws of a dog before its eyes are open"

Tail docking
"the dog must be no older than five days when docked"


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Blitz said:


> ouch , poor little things. I thought they were done at 8 weeks so surely illegal not to use GA.


If memory serves me the ears were not done until 12 to 16 weeks or something like that.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Those tail injuries are gross Rona! The saddest one I ever saw was a lab (which obviously would not have been docked) in quarantine kennels for 6 months, It repeatedly beat its tail on the kennel wall and spent most of the time being treated for the injury. It also got the runs almost permanently so was hardly ever fed as kennel rules were the runs equalled 24 hours starvation. When the 6 months was up it did not settle at home and was rehomed. It put me right off quarantine.


I've seen too many Spaniels like those, that's why I'm in favour of tail docking for working Spaniels. A friends Lab had to have tail amputation as an adult and it was very traumatic for the poor dog but I wouldn't ever advocate tail docking for Labs, or any other breed to be honest except working Spaniels


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

rona said:


> http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-g...y-surgeons/supporting-guidance/miscellaneous/
> 
> Dew claws
> "anaesthetic must be administered except for 'the amputation of the dew claws of a dog before its eyes are open"
> ...


correct.I remember the dew claws and tails being done within a couple of days after the pups were born.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

My question is; what is the function of dewclaws?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

If you have been reading the thread, you will have found several answers including the link from Chris Zink vet


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> If you have been reading the thread, you will have found several answers including the link from Chris Zink vet


I have now went back in the thread and found an answer, thanks.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> obviously if you took a dog in that was more than a few days old the vet would not do it with a pair of scissors. Few vets nowadays remove dewclaws but I can assure you a pair of scissors is adequate when they are done at the correct age especially for rear ones that do not have joints.
> 
> How old were you when you had your skin tag removed. Babies spare digits are often only attached by skin so a pair of scissors is a good enough way to do it. Obviously not if they go through joints.


Sorry, didn't explain myself properly.. I understand scissors are likely to be the instrument they use to remove it, but is it not done as a medical procedure with an anaesthetic?

An extra finger in a child or a due claw in a dog may only be attached by a bit of skin but surely there are still nerve endings, blood supply etc? What difference would it make if the dog was 10 days old or 10 years old?

Urgh makes me shudder just thinking about it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> Nope no GA.Couldnt have been that sore as i never heard them cry.Which by the way was only a couple of dogs with the ear cropping.As posted before the puppys we kept were kept all natural.


Are you talking about cropping or docking being done without a GA? As far as I'm aware cropping can not be done without cutting/removing a portion of the ear, and therefore must be done under GA.

And in regards to pups not feeling pain - https://www.animallaw.info/article/...-and-role-law-preventing-unnecessary-cosmetic

"_Moreover, anti-docking and cropping supporters note that anatomically, all mammals (including humans and dogs) have the same neurotransmitters, receptors, and higher brain functions. __ 42 __ So while puppies may respond differently to pain, there can be no doubt that they feel pain similarly to humans. To this end, veterinarian Jean Hofve notes, "it is well documented in the human medical literature that newborns do feel pain, and neonatal pain management is taken seriously . . . 'even very prematurely born infants respond to pain.'" __ 43 __ Moreover, anatomical studies have shown that the number of nerve endings in a newborn puppy may equal, or even exceed that of adult dogs. __ 44 __ This means that a puppy will experience pain in amounts equal, or even greater to those experienced by the adult dog"
_
So they can/do feel pain. They're just perhaps better at forgetting that pain and healing more quickly than an older dog.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> one of my nephews had an extra finger removed. So far as I know just a pair of scissors and a snip at birth.
> 
> How do you think the vet would do it. Many experienced breeders do their own docking and dew claws, far more efficiently than many vets in the same way that farmers castrate and dock lambs and castrate and disbud calves.
> It is illegal to dock in Scotland but I am sure many breeders do it and I am sure they do in Ireland as well. They only have to cross the border to do it legally anyway.
> ...


To do what legally over the border?


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Are you talking about cropping or docking being done without a GA? As far as I'm aware cropping can not be done without cutting/removing a portion of the ear, and therefore must be done under GA.
> 
> And in regards to pups not feeling pain - https://www.animallaw.info/article/...-and-role-law-preventing-unnecessary-cosmetic
> 
> ...


I am not saying they dont feel pain at all.Just saying that from what i was told when they did the shaping and cutting of the dogs ears it was done without any yelping.I dont recall anything about GA but was told it was done with something that numbed the ear.I never experienced such things myself as i was still young and also quite squeemish.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

My border collie was born with one rear dew claw which was removed. She also doesn't have front ones so has none now. 

Personally like any surgery I think it should be done only when medically required and not for vanity reasons.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2016)

Rott lover said:


> however from what my mom said they actually held a pattern on the ear and traced the pattern and then put some kind of numbing agent on them and use a scalpel to cut the ears.





Rott lover said:


> I am not saying they dont feel pain at all.Just saying that from what i was told when they did the shaping and cutting of the dogs ears it was done without any yelping.I dont recall anything about GA but was told it was done with something that numbed the ear.I never experienced such things myself as i was still young and also quite squeemish.


I'm sorry but that is horrifying that the puppies had their ears cropped without GA. 
In fact I'm pretty sure anti cruelty laws require ear cropping to be done by licensed veterinarians with adequate anesthesia and analgesics. I'll have to look up the law on that one.

To be clear though, the AVMA opposes ear cropping (and tail docking for cosmetic purposes) and has since 1976.
And they are very clear that ears should be cropped under general anesthesia:
"Cropping should always be carried out under full anesthesia, which itself has associated risks."
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Documents/dogs_ear_cropping_bgnd.pdf


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Nettles said:


> Sorry, didn't explain myself properly.. I understand scissors are likely to be the instrument they use to remove it, but is it not done as a medical procedure with an anaesthetic?
> 
> An extra finger in a child or a due claw in a dog may only be attached by a bit of skin but surely there are still nerve endings, blood supply etc? What difference would it make if the dog was 10 days old or 10 years old?
> 
> Urgh makes me shudder just thinking about it.


By law anaesthetic is not needed for docking or dew claw removal before the eyes open. I think the theory is that it is the handling that stresses the pup so just get it over as quickly as possible. Same with calves, they can be castrated up to 10 days old with rubber rings and up to (cannot remember the age) surgically with a scalpel and no local anaesthetic - after that age they have to have local which appears to give them as much pain as the actual castration so better to get them done early.



Meezey said:


> To do what legally over the border?


Puppies in Scotland cannot be docked for any reason but can over the border to England to be done if they are working dogs. In Ireland, I understood that Southern and Northern Ireland had different laws as well and that a lot of litters were taken to Ireland from England to be docked (and presumably dewclawed). Or has the law changed now. Whatever there will be breeders all over that carry on docking and removing dew claws. When it became illegal in Scotland a lot of breeders carried on as they always had and banded the tails as the vets would no longer do it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> By law anaesthetic is not needed for docking or dew claw removal before the eyes open. I think the theory is that it is the handling that stresses the pup so just get it over as quickly as possible. Same with calves, they can be castrated up to 10 days old with rubber rings and up to (cannot remember the age) surgically with a scalpel and no local anaesthetic - after that age they have to have local which appears to give them as much pain as the actual castration so better to get them done early.
> 
> Puppies in Scotland cannot be docked for any reason but can over the border to England to be done if they are working dogs. In Ireland, I understood that Southern and Northern Ireland had different laws as well and that a lot of litters were taken to Ireland from England to be docked (and presumably dewclawed). Or has the law changed now. Whatever there will be breeders all over that carry on docking and removing dew claws. When it became illegal in Scotland a lot of breeders carried on as they always had and banded the tails as the vets would no longer do it.


The law has changed. Hence I said docking and dew claw removal is illegal in Ireland.

I do hope those breeders are prosecuted, I have and will continue to report "breeders" who dock illegally, anything that helps to eradicate bad breeders.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> The law has changed. Hence I said docking and dew claw removal is illegal in Ireland.
> 
> I do hope those breeders are prosecuted, I have and will continue to report "breeders" who dock illegally, anything that helps to eradicate bad breeders.


I am not sorry to hear it has changed. It seemed gruesome to ship bitches to Ireland to whelp so the pups could be docked. So is it illegal in the whole of Ireland now, now more sneaking across borders to get it done


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> The law has changed. Hence I said docking and dew claw removal is illegal in Ireland.
> 
> I do hope those breeders are prosecuted, I have and will continue to report "breeders" who dock illegally, anything that helps to eradicate bad breeders.


I was showing one of my poodles at a local show. She had a tail obviously. She was beaten by a terrier without a tail. I asked the judge, who was a vet, why she had put up a docked dog and she said she had not even thought about it being wrong.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I am not sorry to hear it has changed. It seemed gruesome to ship bitches to Ireland to whelp so the pups could be docked. So is it illegal in the whole of Ireland now, now more sneaking across borders to get it done





Blitz said:


> I was showing one of my poodles at a local show. She had a tail obviously. She was beaten by a terrier without a tail. I asked the judge, who was a vet, why she had put up a docked dog and she said she had not even thought about it being wrong.


If it was a KC the dog can be shown if docked for medical reasons, it had to of had KC dispensation to be shows, if not it shouldn't have been shown in Scotland at all, it's also illegal to take a puppy outside of Scotland to dock it.

Dogs docked before 2007 can be shown in the UK

Dogs docked after for any reason and any where can't be shown where there is a paying public in UK and Wales.

NI it is from 2013 same rules as UK.

Ireland 2014 and they are looking to banned all dogs after this date being shown unless for medical reasons full stop .


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

http://www.dogsbestlife.com/home-page/dog-health-ear-cropping/

I found this very interesting.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

All i can say is when this was going on for me was a loooong time ago.I know a lot has changed since then.we were raising puppys when i was in my early teens in middle school and i am now in my 40's


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> If it was a KC the dog can be shown if docked for medical reasons, it had to of had KC dispensation to be shows, if not it shouldn't have been shown in Scotland at all, it's also illegal to take a puppy outside of Scotland to dock it.
> 
> Dogs docked before 2007 can be shown in the UK
> 
> ...


It was not a legally docked terrier and it was not a KC show. There was paying public but it was in Scotland which certainly then had different laws to the rest of the UK. Please note Scotland is part of the UK so I think you meant England and Wales.

This was the law in Scotland in 2013 and I am not aware of it being changed though I could have missed it

In Scotland, docking was banned completely as of 30thApril 2007. This means there is no exemption for working dogs to be docked. However there is no showing ban, meaning that legally docked dogs born in England, Wales or overseas, may be shown at ALL shows in Scotland. - See more at: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our...statements/tail-docking/#sthash.fo3P8v6D.dpuf


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2016)

Rott lover said:


> http://www.dogsbestlife.com/home-page/dog-health-ear-cropping/
> 
> I found this very interesting.


Yes, and note they say it is done under GA....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> It was not a legally docked terrier and it was not a KC show. There was paying public but it was in Scotland which certainly then had different laws to the rest of the UK. Please note Scotland is part of the UK so I think you meant England and Wales.
> 
> This was the law in Scotland in 2013 and I am not aware of it being changed though I could have missed it
> 
> In Scotland, docking was banned completely as of 30thApril 2007. This means there is no exemption for working dogs to be docked. However there is no showing ban, meaning that legally docked dogs born in England, Wales or overseas, may be shown at ALL shows in Scotland. - See more at: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our...statements/tail-docking/#sthash.fo3P8v6D.dpuf


The show rule only is only for KC shows? If it not a KC show then any dog can be shown unless they state no docked breeds?

Did they tell you it was illegally docked?


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Meezey said:


> It does happen, no one is doubting it, but it doesn't happen enough to warrant them being removed just in case. Some dogs have loose dew claws like they aren't attached, so that's more down to issues with their dogs claws rather than dew claws per sa.


Muttly has a back one like this, it's barely hanging on! He has both front ones, which he uses for holding bones. These are pretty solid, the front ones. But I do worry about the back one.

I remember when I was a child and you never saw a Rotties or Dobes with a tail. Then it seemed suddenly you were seeing them intact and wow I remember thinking, what lovely looking dogs they were. . I much prefer them with tails.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Yes, and note they say it is done under GA....


I did note that as well as many other things in the article


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

.


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## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Rott lover said:


> I did note that as well as many other things in the article


as i said things have changed a lot


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

ouesi said:


> They do
> Over the years I've met several kids born with an extra finger that they had surgically removed when they were babies. It's not that uncommon at all, it's called polydactyly and pediatric orthopedic and plastic surgeons usually do the surgery.


In my experience it is usually left until the child is a little older and is less of an anaesthetic risk, I was a plastics nurse for a long time. It certainly requires x-ray pre op to check the amount of bone involvement. Those digits without bone are yes cut off but not without anaesthetic or analgesia.



Meezey said:


> I mean that parents don't just cut them off. I know they are surgically removed. Likening digit remove on children to a breeder just snipping off a dew claw with scissors is hardly likening apple to apple...


Quite right 



StormyThai said:


> Legal or not, I just simply can not understand why people would chop bits off of their pets for nothing more than they prefer the look...Once a problem has arisen and a vet has advised docking, cropping or dew claw removal is necessary is entirely different IMO



Sadly though vets don't seem to give good advice on this issue, I have got sick of the arguments and images of suffering dog in the Schnauzer group. It seems that certainly in Schnauzers vets seem to advise those who's dogs have dew claws that haven't been removed as puppies to have the claws routinely removed at neuter.

What then follows is days of posts about dogs who are obviously suffering, refusing to walk due to pain and not really eating. The photos of those dogs are pretty horrific in my opinion and they seem to be suffering way more from the dew claw removal that any dog who has been neutered.

Obviously there are dogs who have issues and need removal but this is a seriously painful procedure and shouldn't be routine.

For the record no issue with my girls dew claws and she runs around like a maniac, she can also turn on a pin.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> The show rule only is only for KC shows? If it not a KC show then any dog can be shown unless they state no docked breeds?
> 
> Did they tell you it was illegally docked?


Why would they say that. But after 2007 no puppy was allowed to be docked in Scotland -no exceptions, unlike England. It could of course have been taken to England to be docked.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Why would they say that. But after 2007 no puppy was allowed to be docked in Scotland -no exceptions, unlike England. It could of course have been taken to England to be docked.


Or it could have been born before the ban they could have moved from somewhere it was legal, rescued it or it was medically removed? Anyway back to your original comment, as it wasn't a KC, and they didn't banned docked breeds not sure why as a judge or Vet she should not have placed it? If they told you they had it illegally dock I hope you reported it?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Or it could have been born before the ban they could have moved from somewhere it was legal, rescued it or it was medically removed? Anyway back to your original comment, as it wasn't a KC, and they didn't banned docked breeds not sure why as a judge or Vet she should not have placed it? If they told you they had it illegally dock I hope you reported it?


oddly I know when it was born. And no, I did not report it, I am actually a nice person and do not go around reporting people. Not quite sure what you are talking about though, your post seems rather unclear.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

Blitz said:


> oddly I know when it was born. And no, I did not report it, I am actually a nice person and do not go around reporting people. Not quite sure what you are talking about though, your post seems rather unclear.


it doesn't make you a not nice person for reporting something that is illegal.

It doesn't make you nice for not reporting it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> oddly I know when it was born. And no, I did not report it, I am actually a nice person and do not go around reporting people. Not quite sure what you are talking about though, your post seems rather unclear.


Oh so ignoring something illegal makes you a nice person. Okay!

What part of its unclear to you Blitz? Generally when you don't like what I am saying my posts suddenly become unclear to you? What bit would you like me to clarify?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Blitz said:


> oddly I know when it was born. And no, I did not report it, I am actually a nice person and do not go around reporting people. Not quite sure what you are talking about though, your post seems rather unclear.


You do associate with a lot of rather irresponsible owners from those who kick their dogs, to those partaking in illegal activities. Not sure what that says about you and the company you keep..


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Oh so ignoring something illegal makes you a nice person. Okay!
> 
> What part of its unclear to you Blitz? Generally when you don't like what I am saying my posts suddenly become unclear to you? What bit would you like me to clarify?


This makes no sense to me , I do not understand it at all -- as it wasn't a KC, and they didn't banned docked breeds not sure why as a judge or Vet she should not have placed it?

I find it dreadfully sad that some people think it ok to report friends for things. I am not into a reporting culture and the only people I know that are are not the most popular in the community (to put it mildly). As far as I know it is not illegal to own a docked dog, it is only illegal to do the docking - so there is no one to report is there.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> This makes no sense to me , I do not understand it at all -- as it wasn't a KC, and they didn't banned docked breeds not sure why as a judge or Vet she should not have placed it?
> 
> I find it dreadfully sad that some people think it ok to report friends for things. I am not into a reporting culture and the only people I know that are are not the most popular in the community (to put it mildly). As far as I know it is not illegal to own a docked dog, it is only illegal to do the docking - so there is no one to report is there.


So it's not okay for a judge to put an illegal docked dog up in front of your poodles, and you felt the need to tell her about it, but you feel no need to do anything about those who dock illegally... I wouldn't have friends such as yours Blitz, I chose people who care about animal welfare not those who abuse animals or knowingly allow them to be abused......


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

I'll look out for docked tails/cropped ears at Crufts this year. I do not believe that there will be many.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

TehSnoipah said:


> I'll look out for docked tails/cropped ears at Crufts this year. I do not believe that there will be many.


Will you be watching the live streaming then? You will have more luck in finding docked/cropped breeds at your own big dog show event of Westminster.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

TehSnoipah said:


> I'll look out for docked tails/cropped ears at Crufts this year. I do not believe that there will be many.


Why?
FWIW there probably won't be any as it is a show that has paying public attending 


> The term 'docked' includes dogs which have their tails shortened for medical reasons after the relevant dates - these count as having been docked and therefore such dogs are not allowed to be shown at events where the public are admitted on payment of a fee.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

I might be prepared to eat my hat if you see any cropped ears at Crufts 

There may be docked dogs (I think, could be wrong) in the gamekeepers ring; working gun dogs working!

There may be breeds with natural bobs, some Vallhunds or Aussie Sheps. Not docked though.
There may of course be rescue dogs competing in agility or obedience or discover dogs who suffered some form of mutilation in the hands of previous owners. There may be dogs who required tail or ear surgery or had an accident.
Some ex racing greyhounds have their ear cut off, when abandoned to prevent identification.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Why would they say that. But after 2007 no puppy was allowed to be docked in Scotland -no exceptions, unlike England. It could of course have been taken to England to be docked.


Perhaps the dog was not born in Scotland and was bought elsewhere and the owner emigrated to Scotland!

I think people from England and Wales have actually crossed the border!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

TehSnoipah said:


> I'll look out for docked tails/cropped ears at Crufts this year. I do not believe that there will be many.


Oh dear you will find that there will be NO docked dogs at Crufts in the breed rings, the only place you will see them is at Discover Dogs and in the Activity Rings, Obedience, Agility etc.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> For the record, the last poster who roused my suspicions stole videos of a moderator's since passed dogs playing and posted them as his own. There are some hurtful people out there....


That's dreadful!! That must have been so heartbreaking for the Mod


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Oh dear you will find that there will be NO docked dogs at Crufts in the breed rings, the only place you will see them is at Discover Dogs and in the Activity Rings, Obedience, Agility etc.


That's fine, it's not like I'm in favor of docking/cropping for cosmetic purposes. I read earlier in the thread that docked dogs are not permitted in the show rings, but what if they're working dogs ie retrievers/gundogs? I don't think that the rule should apply for dogs that have their tails docked for a valid reason. In my street, I sometimes see this Alsatian that has no tail; I think that it was removed because of an injury. Would this specific dog still not be allowed to compete?


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> Will you be watching the live streaming then? You will have more luck in finding docked/cropped breeds at* your own big dog show event of Westminster*.


What makes you think that I live in Westminster?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

TehSnoipah said:


> That's fine, it's not like I'm in favor of docking/cropping for cosmetic purposes. I read earlier in the thread that docked dogs are not permitted in the show rings, but what if they're working dogs ie retrievers/gundogs? I don't think that the rule should apply for dogs that have their tails docked for a valid reason. In my street, I sometimes see this Alsatian that has no tail; I think that it was removed because of an injury. Would this specific dog still not be allowed to compete?


Well there would be no point in putting a GSD with no tail in the show ring here in the UK......................... waste of money!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

TehSnoipah said:


> That's fine, it's not like I'm in favor of docking/cropping for cosmetic purposes. I read earlier in the thread that docked dogs are not permitted in the show rings, but what if they're working dogs ie retrievers/gundogs? I don't think that the rule should apply for dogs that have their tails docked for a valid reason. In my street, I sometimes see this Alsatian that has no tail; I think that it was removed because of an injury. Would this specific dog still not be allowed to compete?


Why would a Retriever have it's tail docked?

By "Alsatian", I assume you mean a German Shepherd.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Why would a Retriever have it's tail docked?
> 
> By "Alsatian", I assume you mean a German Shepherd.


By retriever I meant a dog trained for retrieving game (like a pointer) not a Labrador Retriever. Sorry if that was unclear.

And yes, I mean GSD. I didn't think there was a difference. Is there?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

TehSnoipah said:


> By retriever I meant a dog trained for retrieving game (like a pointer) not a Labrador Retriever. Sorry if that was unclear.
> 
> And yes, I mean GSD. I didn't think there was a difference. Is there?


Yes, there is a difference. They have not been known as Alsatians for donkeys' years.

I do need to say. A Pointer does not retrieve game. They 'point' to it, the Spaniels flush it and the Retrievers retrieve it.

The only ones traditionally docked are the Spaniels, not the Pointers.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Yes, there is a difference. They have not been known as Alsatians for donkeys' years.
> 
> I do need to say. A Pointer does not retrieve game. They 'point' to it, the Spaniels flush it and the Retrievers retrieve it.
> 
> The only ones traditionally docked are the Spaniels, not the Pointers.


Well, I've seen hunts where the only dogs there are GSP's and they were doing all the work. The dog detected the animal, and after it was shot, the dog ran off and returned with the dead animal.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

What type of hunts?


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Pheasants, and maybe some grouse.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2016)

TehSnoipah said:


> What makes you think that I live in Westminster?


As in our big show in the US - Westminster. 
Your profile says you're from Massachusetts, last I checked that was in the US 

The AKC allows for surgical procedures to restore a dog's health, however, dogs who have had a surgical procedure to repair a hereditary defect may only show in obedience, and provided the dog has been neutered. 
Individual breeds and their breed clubs have more specific rulings that the AKC will defer to as far as the breed ring.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2016)

Sweety said:


> What type of hunts?


Here in the US it's not unusual to use pointers and spaniels as retrievers also. I'm not very au fait with hunting (obviously) but I do know that we don't just use traditional retrieving breeds to retrieve.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

ouesi said:


> As in our big show in the US - Westminster.
> Your profile says you're from Massachusetts, last I checked that was in the US
> 
> The AKC allows for surgical procedures to restore a dog's health, however, dogs who have had a surgical procedure to repair a hereditary defect may only show in obedience, and provided the dog has been neutered.
> Individual breeds and their breed clubs have more specific rulings that the AKC will defer to as far as the breed ring.


I thought you meant Westminster the town, in the UK. Apologies.


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## Jp kp (Mar 14, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Yes, there is a difference. They have not been known as Alsatians for donkeys' years.
> 
> I do need to say. A Pointer does not retrieve game. They 'point' to it, the Spaniels flush it and the Retrievers retrieve it.
> 
> The only ones traditionally docked are the Spaniels, not the Pointers.


Pointers like a gsp are in the Hpr breed. Hunt, point and retrieve. 
They were bred to do the lot.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Jp kp said:


> Pointers like a gsp are in the Hpr breed. Hunt, point and retrieve.
> They were bred to do the lot.


Is this on a Shoot or a Hunt?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

In the UK a Pointer is an entirely different breed to a GSP, GWP, GLP, SRHP etc where the two or more words which precede "pointer" are usually stated. Or you just mention the breed such as Bracco Italiano, Brittany, Large Munsterlander, Hungarian Vizsla, Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla, Italian Spinone, Weimaraner etc etc


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> In the UK a Pointer is an entirely different breed to a GSP, GWP, GLP, SRHP etc where the two or more words which precede "pointer" are usually stated. Or you just mention the breed such as Bracco Italiano, Brittany, Large Munsterlander, Hungarian Vizsla, Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla, Italian Spinone, Weimaraner etc etc


I think I know what you mean. In the UK, I believe 'pointer', when used on its own, means 'English Pointer'. Am I correct?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

TehSnoipah said:


> I think I know what you mean. In the UK, I believe 'pointer', when used on its own, means 'English Pointer'. Am I correct?


Yes but it is not prefaced by the word English.......................


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Yes but it is not prefaced by the word English.......................


I personally say 'English Pointer' when discussing the breed so people don't think I'm talking about any other kind of pointer.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

TehSnoipah said:


> I personally say 'English Pointer' when discussing the breed so people don't think I'm talking about any other kind of pointer.


I am sure you do...........................................


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> I am sure you do...........................................


Okay then?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sweety said:


> I do need to say. A Pointer does not retrieve game. They 'point' to it, the Spaniels flush it and the Retrievers retrieve it.
> 
> The only ones traditionally docked are the Spaniels, not the Pointers.


I think you need to study the subject more


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