# Breeding help please ....



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I mated 2 silver classic tabby with white parents and a kitten just born is white.

Thought one parent had to be white to produce a white but I know the stud as I supervised matings and I don't have any other stud.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

No idea CC but congratulations!!! Is it just the one or more to come? Mum ok?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Guessing Silver masked by white, there must be a silver hair somewhere.

Mum is doing great, had to revive one kitten who was born in the sac, so far have the white plus a silver classic tabby.

Expecting another to be born soon. x


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Maybe the silver will come out later, as it grows


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

That's not possible. There'll be a silver patch somewhere on there but it definitely won't be an epistatic white.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Could it be colourpoint?


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

What about albino? Can cats produce albino?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

No, as both parents are classic tabbies, although both parents have a lot of white on them.

Sure I will find silver somewhere on the kitten, I will just need to get close enough to check, hopefully soon but mum is having none of me at the moment.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

So exiting.

I can just see you sat with white baby searching every hair for the elusive silver one


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Must admit I am trying hard to find that silver patch.

There has been no albino kittens born in either pedigree line, but if this is the case I will need to wait until the eyes open.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> No, as both parents are classic tabbies, although *both parents have a lot of white on them*.
> 
> Sure I will find silver somewhere on the kitten, I will just need to get close enough to check, hopefully soon but mum is having none of me at the moment.


Think it will turn out to be mostly white (more than the parents) with patches of colour. Think Van pattern for example.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> Could it be colourpoint?


No colourpoint in Main Coones I believe.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> Maybe the silver will come out later, as it grows





carly87 said:


> That's not possible. There'll be a silver patch somewhere on there but it definitely won't be an epistatic white.





MerlinsMum said:


> Could it be colourpoint?





huckybuck said:


> What about albino? Can cats produce albino?





catcoonz said:


> No, as both parents are classic tabbies, although both parents have a lot of white on them.
> 
> Sure I will find silver somewhere on the kitten, I will just need to get close enough to check, hopefully soon but mum is having none of me at the moment.


You're science-ing me again! Any minute now it will be

"But the sire was XXSswwAbcdefg, and the dam was XXttSswwVQRyz "

and then my brain will explode, and do any of you care?

NO!

You just treat me like I was normal and could understand stuff.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you OS, if that is the case, the kitten is staying with me.

I have been tying to breed a hi-white.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I only know a little about the theory of the white spotting gene, never having bred any whites at all, but isn't it possible to have very high white cats? Wouldn't there be more likelihood of a high white when mating two cats both with a lot of white? I think cats homozygous for the white spotting gene generally have more white and presumably the amount of white is also affected by polygenes. Do your cats carry non-agouti?

Keep looking for those coloured hairs!


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Think it will turn out to be mostly white (more than the parents) with patches of colour. Think Van pattern for example.


Sounds absolutely beautiful. I love van pattern.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Left mum asleep to make a cup of tea, now have 4 kittens.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

QOTN said:


> I only know a little about the theory of the* white spotting gene*, never having bred any whites at all, but isn't it possible to have very high white cats? Wouldn't there be more likelihood of a high white when mating two cats both with a lot of white? I think cats* homozygous* for the white spotting gene generally have more white and presumably the amount of white is also affected by *polygenes*. Do your cats carry *non-agouti*?
> 
> Keep looking for those coloured hairs!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGHH!!!!!

I knew it!

You're doing it!

You're doing it now!

You will launch a genetics-letter bombardment any minute and I will be killed in the cross-fire.

(*_runs and hides behind settee, trembling*_)


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Both parents carry non-agouti.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I also want to know what a hi-white is, but am worried that it will NOT be a pure snow-white cat with VERY long legs, as this is a mental image I find strangely pleasing, and I don't want it shattered just yet. :yesnod:


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

So sorry Lostbear! I was really posting for Catcoonz. I had no idea you were around. Would you like an explanation for any of the terms you have marked in bold?????


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

These 2 photo's are in the pedigree line.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Merlin is magnificent. Sorry to be ignorant but is the wideband gene in Maine Coons?

If your kitten is non-agouti, silver, high white *and* wideband you might struggle to find those hairs.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I have no idea.

My aim from this litter was to get another Merlin  now I have no idea what I have.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Genetically impossible to have a solid white kitten from this mating, but what on earth do I register as and how do I explain to a potential owner, kitten looks white but its not.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

Maybe a few lessons from my ex husband, he could make you believe black was white 

I'm sure the potential owner will either understand or turn to drink


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Surely you will persist in the attempt to breed another Merlin, even if you are not successful this time?

(Just think what it is like for siamese breeders. Very little idea what you have sometimes for weeks, although occasionally, depending on the colours involved, there are different shades to the coats when they are first born.)


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli...fe_rd=cr&ei=oOkTVdyHEPPH8gfqzIKwBQ&gws_rd=ssl

Had to copy google search…top result; Maine Coon Bred Society PDF explains wideband - gobbledy **** to me!!!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Do the parents carry dilute? If the baby is dilute, the coloured hairs may become more obvious in time. Surely you will have to just wait and see.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Will definitely continue to breed another Merlin.

I know the other kittens are Silver classic tabby without white, maybe this kitten took all the white gene for itself.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Yes, dad carries blue.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you HB 

Answer is yes to wideband gene.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Merlin is magnificent. Sorry to be ignorant but is the wideband gene in Maine Coons?
> 
> If your kitten is non-agouti, silver, high white *and* wideband you might struggle to find those hairs.


Thank you so much, explains why I cant find a silver hair.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> Thank you so much, explains why I cant find a silver hair.


Do either parent express the wide band gene e.g. tipped or shaded? Not sure it can be carried, thought it was always expressed.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Mum is shaded and Granddad shaded aswell.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I may not need to do any genetic explaining to the possible owner, I have a feeling M2M has just chosen him/her.

I could say he/she is a yellow banana and she will still love him/her.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> I may not need to do any genetic explaining to the possible owner, I have a feeling M2M has just chosen him/her.
> 
> *I could say he/she is a yellow banana and she will still love him/her*.


rrr: rrr: rrr: 

Well I did say a hi-white would be great 

For that I want a full and detailed expanation of the genetics of little white


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Yippeee!!!

We both think Snowy might have had some influence here


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Wow MORE MC's M2M? You're nuts!


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

Jellypi3 said:


> Wow MORE MC's M2M? You're nuts!


And I'm jealous!


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm jealous of a white one


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> Yippeee!!!
> 
> We both think Snowy might have had some influence here


Yes, bless his little heart 



Jellypi3 said:


> Wow MORE MC's M2M? You're nuts!


Gus insisted I even things up, he can't hope to compete against two NFcs on his own  



smoking guns said:


> And I'm jealous!


  

This is it, no more


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> I'm jealous of a white one


I think CC searching for than silver hair to prove he/she's not pure white


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

OMG, a high white, well WHITE white Coonie.
yum yum yum


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Kitten cant be pure white, genetically impossible as you need one parent to be white and I don't have a pure white.

A very hi white with silver (somewhere).

All I can promise is parents health tested, I cant explain why this kitten has all the white and the others have no whites.

A zoomy kitten, with white is what you asked for, that's what you get


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I will find that silver hair and hope mum doesn't pull it out washing babies.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

QOTN said:


> So sorry Lostbear! I was really posting for Catcoonz. I had no idea you were around. Would you like an explanation for any of the terms you have marked in bold?????


Thank you for your offer, but God forbid!

To me it would be the mental equivalent of getting trapped on the Birmingham ring road.

I was just working my ticket (I just wanted to play with you big kids) 

I actually have a lot of respect for people who can work out genetics - it's bliddy complicated. :eek6:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Genetically impossible to have a solid white kitten from this mating, but what on earth do I register as and* how do I explain to a potential owner, kitten looks white but its not.*


Give him/her to me. Even if you try to explain I will just nod and smile and haven idea what you are talking about, and nor will I care with my arms full of pure white purr.



Mum to Missy said:


> Maybe a few lessons from my ex husband, he could make you believe black was white
> 
> I'm sure the potential owner will either understand or *turn to drink *


Already there and back. It was the real hard stuff, too - Tibena.



catcoonz said:


> *Kitten cant be pure white, genetically impossible as you need one parent to be white and I don't have a pure white.
> *
> A very hi white with silver (somewhere).
> 
> ...


So where did the first white one come from then?

Could it not just be a "sport"?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Genetics I find difficult aswell, especially when you try and breed a hi white like Merlin then get this.

Well, maybe next year I will get my hi white kitten, ive only been trying for 3 years.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

LB I don't know, my head hurts


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Just found a P4H ad for maine coons - is this the silver colour you are looking for?

Two Maine Coon girls for rehoming | Horley, Surrey | Pets4Homes

This particular one seems unhealthily chubby 

(It actually seems quite a sad ad)


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Saw that yesterday but not hi white x


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Isn't it a bit early to be making reservations on a kitten who isn't even a day old yet? Sorry to be a party pooper but it might turn out to be a high white and then surely you'll want to keep it? Or it could be an albino.

Whoever asked about CP, there was actually CP in the MCs way way back apparently, or so an MC breeder friend tells me. But the kittens were always sold off as pets rather than bred from as far as I know.

CC, dad carries dilute but does mum?

QOTN, yep, if you breed 2 high whites together then the expression of the white spotting gene is increased and the higher the white gets. Sometimes there's only the tiniest little bit of colour on the kitten, but there it will be. The only way to get full epistatic white is to have 1 or both white parents.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Mum doesn't carry dilute.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Then the kitten can't be a dilute either. So you're looking for darker colours if not silver.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

As far as I'm aware it's perfectly possible for the white spotting gene to manifest itself in the extreme to produce an all white kitten.

It'll be interesting to read how s/he develops!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Just a thought. If Maine Coon colour point kittens were 'hushed-up' in the past, could the same be true of recessive white? Highly unlikely but I wonder if it is possible.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I will keep you all updated with photograph's and just see if any silver does appear.

Of course if albino kitten stays with me but would that mean I need to neuter the parents. Did think albinos were on 2% and very rare.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Have there been any true albino Maine Coons? I don't know anything about albinos except they are the most recessive cat in the albino series. First there is full colour, then Burmese restriction, then Siamese restriction, then recessive blue-eyed white and then pink-eyed albino. A true albino in any species is a very disadvantaged animal but I do not know anything about their genetic inheritance. Has anybody on PF actually seen an albino cat or know how they occur?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I decided to try to find out about the inheritance of pink-eyed albino cats but the paper I discovered was concerned with recessive white cats and it stated there had been no distinction in the literature between blue eyes and pink eyes.

Julia May bred many recessive white cats but that was before I knew her. They lived normal lives without handicaps. 

I think it is highly unlikely the kitten is recessive white but, if it is, it would be quite hard to breed it out of Maine Coons. With Siamese and Orientals, a Siamese could be cleared by a DNA test confirming two Siamese genes and an Oriental line of cats can be cleared by mating to a Siamese and keeping an Oriental to continue the line.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

The White Maine Coon - Stunning and Bright


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

White kitten now looks like a dirty white, sorry only way I can describe it, so I think this is the silver although faint coming through on its back.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Recessive white, QOTN? Didn't think this was possible. Is this simply a very firm expression of the white spotting gene? Can't be epistatic. Ooooo, now I want to learn!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

QOTN said:


> Surely you will persist in the attempt to breed another Merlin, even if you are not successful this time?
> 
> (Just think what it is like for siamese breeders. Very little idea what you have sometimes for weeks, although occasionally, depending on the colours involved, there are different shades to the coats when they are first born.)


I have this problem too as a breeder of colourpointed british , our current litter is a week old today and still waiting to see what colours they are.



QOTN said:


> Have there been any true albino Maine Coons? I don't know anything about albinos except they are the most recessive cat in the albino series. First there is full colour, then Burmese restriction, then Siamese restriction, then recessive blue-eyed white and then pink-eyed albino. A true albino in any species is a very disadvantaged animal but I do not know anything about their genetic inheritance. Has anybody on PF actually seen an albino cat or know how they occur?


there used to be a member on here who had a true albino cat , none pedigree.

cc im sure that when you breed two cats with white together the chances of some being high white are increased.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I decided to try to find out about the inheritance of pink-eyed albino cats but the paper I discovered was concerned with recessive white cats and it stated there had been no distinction in the literature between blue eyes and pink eyes.
> 
> Julia May bred many recessive white cats but that was before I knew her. They lived normal lives without handicaps.
> 
> I think it is highly unlikely the kitten is recessive white but, if it is, it would be quite hard to breed it out of Maine Coons. With Siamese and Orientals, a Siamese could be cleared by a DNA test confirming two Siamese genes and an Oriental line of cats can be cleared by mating to a Siamese and keeping an Oriental to continue the line.


Think you can DNA test to eliminate it. Worth checking with Langford. Believe you can also quite happily keep breeding with carriers making sure they don't mate with another carrier and are neutered before they leave as pets.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, Oriental Slave, there must be a DNA test for the gene since the research has been done but whether it is available to the general public is another matter. Of course if there were a commercial test for full colour then there would be no problem but I doubt there would be much call for such a thing since it is usually so obvious and other recessive genes at the same locus already have their own test.

Carly, recessive white is not recognised by the GCCF but I do not know about other organisations. As I said in a previous post it is part of the albino series which, in order of dominance is Full Colour, Burmese restriction, Siamese restriction, Recessive blue-eyed white then albino.

Anyway, it looks as though the kitten is silver so I hope this will not be a problem.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Tthat is very, very interesting. Thank you.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

See what you think from these photograph's.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I know what colour I would have guessed at... apart from the fact that it wouldn't have been possible from two black silver tabby & white parents!

But the kitten does not look white to me... unless there's a colour cast over the photo.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Starting to look cream to me.

Dads mum was a tortie with white, but I thought you needed a tortie or red/cream to produce that colour.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

It looks... Cream to me! From these photos and on my computer screen, that is.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

That's what I thought, some kind of cream silver shaded. But obviously not possible with the absence of the red gene on both parents. Has mum had kittens previously?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

cc, a tortie mother is enough to produce a cream boy, but that would mean your male, as well as the female (I remember you previously mentioned she doesn't) carry dilute! 

ETA: sorry, read the post wrong. thought the mother is a tortie. from two black parents, obviously you can't get a red or cream kitten. this is just getting more mysterious!


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Ok ....

I bred a silver classic tabby (she could be shaded and I registered her wrong) with white to a silver classic tabby with white stud.

The stud carries blue.

Now mum is from a black smoke and a silver shaded male. The silver shaded male's mum was a tortie with white.

Dads side his dad is silver tabby, mum is blue hi white. Great grandmother was tortie.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Is there any chance this kitten could be a silver shaded with white and I need to wait for the silver to show through later?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sorry, yes mum had one kitten in her 1st litter which was a silver classic tabby with white, this is her 2nd litter and last I think.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

He looks like a baby Polo. (Steveraggs)

Could it just be staining from the fluid though

Whatever, congratulations! Babies looked lovely &#10084;&#65039;&#10084;&#65039;&#10084;&#65039;&#10084;&#65039;and you have all given me a giggle reading this thread. So I thank you for that.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Is his tummy/underparts the same (what appears to be) cream'ish colour? What colour are his paw pads?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Definitely can't be cream either. Could it be a very poor silver or something like that? Very mysterious!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> See what you think from these photograph's.


Golden. She looks golden, esp. in the last pic.

(And what lovely, tiny little mouse-feet they all have . . .)


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Congratulations! CC, well done to you and mum :thumbsup: xx

Look forward to watching them grow and finding out what colour this little one is


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Paw pads are all pink, unfortunately no fur on tummy yet, was born a little early.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you for helping, I have just found the silver, tip of tail underneath.
Was difficult to notice this whilst in the box wriggling around. 

Will take some photograph's in a few days time, think I have upset mum enough now.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Thank you for helping, *I have just found the silver, tip of tail underneath.*
> Was difficult to notice this whilst in the box wriggling around.
> 
> Will take some photograph's in a few days time, think I have upset mum enough now.


Mmmmm! Sounds very fishy to me . . . .

Was that a can of car touch-up spray I saw you hiding behind the credenza a few minutes ago?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Nope, I found silver nail polish.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Nope, I found silver nail polish.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Wish me luck, queen killed a kitten tonight and has walked from the rest.
My other queen is not due until 8th April, so now desperately trying to hand rear, at this young age I don't hold out much hope, only managed to rear kittens from 2 weeks.

Going to spay mum now.

The confused colour kitten is hand rearing well but still I don't hold out much hope of being successful.


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

catcoonz said:


> Wish me luck, queen killed a kitten tonight and has walked from the rest.
> My other queen is not due until 8th April, so now desperately trying to hand rear, at this young age I don't hold out much hope, only managed to rear kittens from 2 weeks.
> 
> Going to spay mum now.
> ...


Oh gosh I'm so sorry.  Really hoping the remaining kittens make it.


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh no I didn't expect to read that. You've suddenly got your work cut out now. Best of luck I do hope things go well.
X


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

catcoonz said:


> Wish me luck, queen killed a kitten tonight and has walked from the rest.
> My other queen is not due until 8th April, so now desperately trying to hand rear, at this young age I don't hold out much hope, only managed to rear kittens from 2 weeks.
> 
> Going to spay mum now.
> ...


Oh CC  really sorry to hear this 

Keeping everything crossed for the little ones and hope all goes well xx

RIP little one, run free at the bridge xx


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm so very to hear this. (((HUGS)))

Good luck to both you and the babies.

R.I.P. little one


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## Lemonzaz (Mar 15, 2015)

catcoonz said:


> Wish me luck, queen killed a kitten tonight and has walked from the rest.
> My other queen is not due until 8th April, so now desperately trying to hand rear, at this young age I don't hold out much hope, only managed to rear kittens from 2 weeks.
> 
> Going to spay mum now.
> ...


Oh no, how awful for you  So sorry to hear that  Rest in peace little one <3
Best of luck to you and the other kittens. Don't doubt yourself, you're doing the best you can for them xx


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Hand rearing is going better than I thought, kittens suckling very strong, going to be very tired in a few days but once I get to 8th April I will have a queen to take over.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Confused kitten colour I am not confused on now, I can see tabby markings coming through on head and back plus more silver coming through, so not albino, cream or white.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Glad the bottle feeding is going well, and the confusing kitten is showing what it is.


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

oh no sorry to hear this cc


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Oh no, so sorry to year this,is it her first litter? i hope the hand feeding goes well, RIP little one


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh CC, I'm so sorry to read this. How terribly sad.

I'm glad the kittens are taking from you. If anyone can hand rear them it will be you. 

Sending lots of love xxxx


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## m1xc2 (Mar 19, 2015)

Very sorry to hear this. *hugs*


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

So sorry CC - but pleased the bottle feeding is going well.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

What tragic news CC - that is so very sad.

My heart aches for you. I hope the remaining kittens continue to thrive.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Hope everything goes well with remaining kittens hun x


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm so sad that this has come to a hand rearing situation. No one could give the remaining kitties more devotion than you CC. 

Desperately hoping that they continue to do well.


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## idris (Feb 19, 2015)

Hang in there. Shocked to read today's post. May the 8th be with you quickly. X


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

This photo was taken this evening, I think from this you can make out the kitten I am now very concerned about, although suckles strong just doesn't gain any weight.

I can only do my best, 8th April seems so far away and we are living by the hour, just hope that 1 kitten I am worried about makes it, other 3 I think looks ok.


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## idris (Feb 19, 2015)

Awww! Four little popets. I know you will give them all the very best chance. X


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

Praying that all four kittens are fit and strong CC.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Willing them all to make it CC but as you say you can only do your best and no one's best is better than yours. 

9 Days and counting.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You won't be able to give them to that other queen. The age gap is too big and the milk won't be right for the older ones. They will also push the younger ones off the nipples, so you risk losing more. Work is quiet at the moment so if you need time to nap during the day I can come over and do some feeds for you for a few hours so you can sleep.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you for the kind offer Carly.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Thinking of you and the 4 little poppets - I can see which one you are worried about- I know it won't make it any easier but he may not of been thriving even with mums milk x


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Keeping everything crossed and sending lots of positive and good luck vibes xx


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## Burmesemum (Mar 7, 2015)

Loads of (((hugs))) I hope it goes well.

Sometimes the ones who appear to be the weakest can surprise you.

I hope they all pull through and they are undoubtedly getting the very best of care.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

I've been thinking about you and your remaining little ones all day and wishing them strong sucks and round fat tummies. Hoping you all stay strong. 

(((hugs)))


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you for the thoughts, have good news that we do now have full tummies and weight gain on all kittens, confident all will be fine now.
Weight gains are between 8 and 13gms, although feeding every 2 hours 24/7 and so tired, but will get there.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Sorry to hear the news. Really glad the remaining kittens are gaining weight.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Keep up the good work CC you are working miracles !!!


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## m1xc2 (Mar 19, 2015)

catcoonz said:


> Thank you for the thoughts, have good news that we do now have full tummies and weight gain on all kittens, confident all will be fine now.
> Weight gains are between 8 and 13gms, although feeding every 2 hours 24/7 and so tired, but will get there.


You are seriously awesome!


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Really sorry to hear about the problems. Just goes to show you just never know. Hope the little ones do ok. Hand rearing as I know only too well is really tough and absolutely knackering. But the result when successful is so worth it. I would agree that now you have started you will probably have to carry on. Once kittens get used to the bottle they don't go back to the nipple unfortunately, but it does get easier. How well have they been taking their feeds? Some seem to take to it straight away like Koda or some it is a battle like Berry. 

Good luck hun, if anyone can do it its you x


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

Great news CC, so pleased to hear they are gaining weight :thumbup:

If anyone can save these kittens you can


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

3 kittens took to the bottle straight away, the one I was worried about kept resisting so had to change to syringe for that one.
Syringe takes so much longer but as long as there is some weight gain we will be ok.

1 silver kitten yesterday had a good gain, today only 4gm gain.
Hoping they wean early as im tired now, problem I have at night is by the time ive made the feed up they have fallen back to sleep, then the bottles go warm too quickly.

But they are all content with full tummies this morning, so we keep going.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I wouldn't worry too much about how much they are gaining in weight as long as something. I have had bottle feeders lose weight every day for a week and still be ok. It takes a while to establish the feeding so will probably be erratic. Once they are taking the bottle well you will probably find they gain weight much quicker.

In terms of weaning I have always found bottle fed babies are late to wean as they get too lazy on the bottle. But you may find it different. Normally mine seem to be about 8 or 9 weeks lol. But then Koda went from full bottle feeds to wanting no bottle feeds within a week! It does get easier though as the feeds stretch out and by 3-4 weeks they shouldn't need feeding more than 6 hrly. x


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Wrap them in a warm flannel as they are so wriggly, oh such joy, late weaners xx


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

CC i've only just caught up on this. I'm so sorry it's all turned out like this but it does sound hopeful now. We've had an unbelievable time of it here - hence why I haven't been around to see your post. Three c-sections in 6 days, the first mom has been very ill in the vets for over a week now so her kittens needed feeding from 4 days old. Fortunately the rescue cat who had the second c-section the day after Bella took her kittens on. I do need to top them up several times during the day but it's far easier than full hand rearing. I do feel for you, I know only too well how tiring it is  I've never had success with the bottles tbh, I always use the syringes and find them far easier. Fingers crossed your little ones continue to thrive now x


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

So pleased to hear things are still going well.

If I lived nearer I'd offer to help xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd suggest making up a bottle of feed before going to bed, then just decanting and warming exactly what you need for 1 feed. It's much quicker and you waste less milk.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Really pleased all is going well for your little ones  xx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'd suggest making up a bottle of feed before going to bed, then just decanting and warming exactly what you need for 1 feed. It's much quicker and you waste less milk


It's fine to make up enough for 24 hours and keep it in the fridge. I also find the old fashioned way of warming it works a treat - fill the bottle or syringe and pop it in a jug of hot water. By the time I've gone from the kitchen to the kitten room a bottle of milk in a jug of hot water is at just the right temperature


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you, that worked so much better last night, otherwise by the time I had made up fresh feeds it took longer, last night I actually got some sleep.

All kittens gained enough weight, little kitten who was on the syringe has finally taken to the bottle. 

As I have never hand reared kittens this young, last kittens was 2 weeks old, what age can I drop a night feed?

Currently feeding every 2 hours day and night, can I drop just one feed at night.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Currently feeding every 2 hours day and night, can I drop just one feed at night


My experience says a big YES though book theory says otherwise. The way I found out it was fine was through exhaustion and falling asleep without setting the alarm. I woke up nearly five hours later and took the stairs four at a time in a mad panic. Kittens were hungry but fine and they fed really well. After that I deliberately left an extra hour before a late night feed so they'd feed well and could go four hours through the night. Hand feeding is a marathon and you won't be any use to them if you drive yourself into the ground.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I also know of a few people who load the kittens before sleep, so do 2 or 3 hourly feeds, then leave a 4-5 hour gap and kittens cope really well with that.

Yep, I drop a syringe into a mug of hot water and by the time I've taken it to the kittens it's at feeding temperature.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

That is good news for me, at least then I can get a 3 hour sleep as I can cope with that.

Don't think I could keep this up feeding every 2 hours for more than another few days, I am shattered.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

It is hard, it was made harder not knowing what I was going to find each time I reached in to his little box bed, heart in mouth wondering if he was still alive.

I reached breaking point after a week of 2 hourly feeds with Jasper, I was telling my daughter to find a shelter or vets to take him because I couldn't do it any more, she took over that night and failed to wake up to feed him but that one nights sleep was enough to recharge my batteries and I also found out he could survive longer than 2 hours without a feed (he'd gone 5 hours!)


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Jasper is gorgeous, very rewarding.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

catcoonz said:


> Jasper is gorgeous, very rewarding.


Definitely rewarding but as I said HARD, physically and mentally/emotionally. If I was closer I would offer to have them for a night so you could recharge because thats all you need, a proper sleep.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I normally try to do closer feeds during the day and then leave a five hour gap at night. Kittens are fine, as long as they are getting overall enough over 24 hours. You need sleep too hun x


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you, will do last feed at 1am then next feed at 4am, gives me enough sleep to recharge and can fit an extra feed in the daytime, or possibly tonight.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Over tired so cant sleep now, typical.

Anyway, news is all is great, feeding fine.

I have 2 silver boys, 1 silver girl and the white kitten has gone a silver shaded girl.

Thank you for all the help.

Will update photograph's later.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

So pleased they are all doing well - being overtired is nasty, I remember it well from when I used to work night shifts. 
Hope you are managing to cat nap during the day and also remembering to eat well yourself xx


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Good news the kittens are thriving.

(I think you may have to re-register the dam if you have a silver shaded kitten.)


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Hopefully you will now see some silver on the kitten, doesn't photograph very well.

All is great, kittens quiet and eyes are now open.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

They look a good size CC - hope they continue to thrive and you can get some rest too


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## m1xc2 (Mar 19, 2015)

catcoonz said:


> Hopefully you will now see some silver on the kitten, doesn't photograph very well.
> 
> All is great, kittens quiet and eyes are now open.


Aww they're beautiful. Hope things are getting a little calmer for you.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Hopefully you will now see some silver on the kitten, doesn't photograph very well.
> 
> All is great, kittens quiet and eyes are now open.


You're doing a fantastic job CC, they're looking good :thumbup:

I think I'm in love


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## Lemonzaz (Mar 15, 2015)

I'm so glad things are going well for you and the kittens  They are looking great! x


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank You, feel better dropping a feed at night now and this morning they all gained enough weight.


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## GingerJasper (Oct 29, 2012)

Wow the babies are beautiful CC. They certainly have put you through it. Like everyone else I'm in love, they're going to be stunning.

Well done. X


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

They are looking really good CC well done you. Wish I lived closer to help you xx


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Kittens eyes are all open now, as you may have guessed we don't have an albino as eyes have colour.

You probably all knew this from the last photo though. 

Thank you for all the help in my days of worry, all kittens gaining weight and I get to have a few hours sleep.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

New photograph's today.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh they look amazing xxxx


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Adorable :001_wub: :001_wub:

So pleased babies are gaining weight and doing well   xx


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

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