# Why Cesar Millan is Yesterday's Dog Trainer



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Watching this right now by Zak, it's very interesting.

[youtube_browser]nSWJwKySv-w[/youtube_browser]


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## Leah84 (Jun 22, 2009)

CM was ever a dog trainer? :001_huh: seriously never thought of him that way, i much prefer VS


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

bloody hell he takes 5 mins to say what i could have said in 30 seconds


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## jayne5364 (Oct 21, 2009)

Well said.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Oh please! More like him to help turn back the tide of dumbinance thinking! :thumbup:


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

i find it hard to listen to him gibber on for minutes on end without actually saying anything. What exactly is his training style? drone on untill the dog loses the will to misbehave/live?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Better than listening to half an hour of twaddle from CM.  b Search his videos to see how he trains etc.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Sorry but i dont agree with what this guys is saying. Would he have helped countless dogs like Apollo the Rottie that are on death row? 

CM rehabilitates dogs, he does not train them. He helped a dog with very low confidence issues that was afraid of loud noises. He helped a Dobie that just wouldnt eat.

Rehab is totally different to training. Its like comparing physio to a personal intructor.


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

At least it isn't a pre written script and Zak's saying it from the heart. 

I particularly like what he says about bullying - it says it all really.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

porps said:


> i find it hard to listen to him gibber on for minutes on end without actually saying anything. What exactly is his training style? drone on untill the dog loses the will to misbehave/live?


http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/175935-you-know-ceaser-vs-but-do-you-know.html




5rivers79 said:


> Sorry but i dont agree with what this guys is saying. Would he have helped countless dogs like Apollo the Rottie that are on death row?
> 
> CM rehabilitates dogs, he does not train them. He helped a dog with very low confidence issues that was afraid of loud noises. He helped a Dobie that just wouldnt eat.
> 
> Rehab is totally different to training. Its like comparing physio to a personal intructor.


I used to think the same, you are defiantly still very new to owning a dog. One day you'll get and laugh at yourself.

No one says that he dosen't do good things simply that his methods are outdated.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

thanks for the links.. i tried to watch some of them before but get bored long before he gives any actual tips or advice. I'm sure they will come in handy when i have a bout of insomnia though.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/175935-you-know-ceaser-vs-but-do-you-know.html
> 
> 
> I used to think the same, you are defiantly still very new to owning a dog. One day you'll get and laugh at yourself.
> ...


Fair enough but what methods would suit a Rottie that no one was willing to train, or how would reward based training work on a dog that doesnt want to eat?


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

I can't watch the link as I'm at work, but I really can't understand all the anti CM threads. 

I know a lot of people don't agree with the pack leader and dominance theories, but putting that aside, I've seen a few shows where CM has not only saved dogs from being put down, but also helped dogs over come serious issues. Yes, he does sometimes use flooding, but I also watched a show with him working with an Akita (if I remember rightly) which was so scared it wouldn't even leave it's kennel and he took so much time and care with that dog that it blew me away. 

I don't use his methods, simply because I don't need to, but I wouldn't totally dismiss them either because frankly, they seem to work. I don't believe he is cruel or violent, I think he genuinely cares for and loves dogs. I think he has a natural talent working with them, but that people trying to copy his techniques, could end up putting themselves in danger.

I don't think he's always right, and as I said, I've never used his techniques, but I do agree with his mantra of "Exercise, discipline, affection" as well as staying calm. I genuinely believe that just like us, dogs need discipline. By that, I don't mean smacking a dog with a newspaper! I just mean, well training I guess. A disciplined dog will leave something when you tell it to, not because its scared of you, but because it has discipline. For example, when I have to get up at 6.30 to walk her and think to myself about staying in bed for another half an hour, I force myself to get up out of discipline! I hope that explains what I mean by the word and that no one takes it the wrong way.

I also find a lot of posters are quick to be a little patronising with anyone who does like CM. We all know about clicker training etc, but surely this is all a personal choice and comes down to what works best for you and your dog? Im very open minded to all kinds of training and would never criticises someone for how they chose to train their dog (unless it included violence or was making the dog worse). I just think it would be nice if people could mention CM, or other training methods without fear of being looked down upon or criticised. But after every post of someone mentioning CM, even when its nothing to do with alpha rolls or dominance, someone else will post saying how its out dated, cruel, etc which I think is a little rude. Everyone is welcomed to post their advice of course, but undermining other people is surely not fair? Is it not up to the original OP as to which advice they follow?

Please dont take this post the wrong way, Im not a massive CM fan, but Im not against him either but I do think people should be free to express their opinions without criticism.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Marley boy said:


> bloody hell he takes 5 mins to say what i could have said in 30 seconds


great! :thumbup: 
make a video explaining why PACK-LEADER & 'dominate the dog' are twaddle. 
then post it on UTube - & come back with a link. :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...what methods would suit a Rottie that no one was willing to train...


99% of this comes down to owner commitment; if the owner will not work on the issue, the trainer or behaviorist 
[academic credentials: CAAB, COAPE, APBC, CABC, etc] cannot do a doggone thing.

it also co$ts *$ money $ & * time * * to fix behavioral issues - 
i know owners who had the commitment, but not the money - they MADE the time to save their dogs, 
they did it with books, DVDs, a one-time consult & a B-mod protocol, with on-line support, or some combo 
of one or more.

ain't no free lunch - owners who want to fix their dog's issues Can & Have succeeded; without pack-theory, 
without choke- or prong- or shock-collars or using a garrote - _oops,_ i mean 'using a skinny cheap 
kennel-lead, buried in the dog's neck'. 


5rivers79 said:


> ...how would reward based training work on a dog that doesnt want to eat?


- *a reward can be ANYthing the dog will work for*: an activity [tug, chase a flirt-pole, fetch, chase a bunny, 
herd sheep, etc]; Premack where the REWARD is the behavior the dog wants to perform; attention, play with 
another dog, a chance to sniff... Anything. Rewards are limited only by the trainer's imagination.

- When did U last see a dog who refused to eat at all - & as a direct result, starved to death, rather than eat?! 
:lol: what kaka - they don't exist!  *humans* develop anorexia or bulemia, dogs don't. *No dog* i've heard of 
committed suicide by refusing to eat any food whatever.


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## feathered bird lover (May 23, 2011)

i haven't got the best taste ever, but i watched his shows as he was a bit of eye candy.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

feathered bird lover said:


> i haven't got the best taste ever, but i watched his shows as he was a bit of eye candy.


Hahaha, and the most amazing teeth!


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## kirk68 (Apr 19, 2011)

I have never approved of the 'Dominance' type of training. My dogs are trained with love, understanding and above all patience. They do as I tell them because they love me not because they fear me. When people ask me what methods I use, I always reply that I use the bribery and corruption method. I reward good behaviour with treats (not just food but words and actions as well) There should never be any need to bully a dog.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I would need to look at other videos before I formed an opinion, but what puts me off is he takes far too long telling stuff and waffling.

I prefer people to be more direct and to the point but would still like to see some more of his videos which are actually demonstrating his techniques.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

kirk68 said:


> I have never approved of the 'Dominance' type of training. My dogs are trained with love, understanding and above all patience. They do as I tell them because they love me not because they fear me. When people ask me what methods I use, I always reply that I use the bribery and corruption method. I reward good behaviour with treats (not just food but words and actions as well) There should never be any need to bully a dog.


This is kind of my point though, I'm sure every person on here trains their dogs with love, understanding and patience - I mean we all obviously love our dogs to be on this forum in the first place! But just because someone might like to watch The Dog Whisperer, doesn't make them bad owners who bully their dogs, and it's unfair to judge people in that way (not that I'm saying that's what you're doing). Also, to be fair to CM, I don't believe he teaches bullying (at least from what I've seen), but he does agree with boundries for dogs, and so do I, in fact, I think most people do because who wants an out of control dog?!

I'm just saying that just because someone watches the show, doesn't mean they're alpha rolling their dog or being agressive etc. I've learnt a lot from watching it, such as how important it is to stay calm, and to remember to check myself to make sure I am calm - something I'm sure we all agree on? It's not all "bad" information, thats all.


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## kirk68 (Apr 19, 2011)

I agree that it's not all bad information from CM, just that some of his techniques aren't what I'd use. I have no problem with people watching his shows, I just don't think he's the saviour that so many people make him out to be. I think it's all down to personal opinion and everyone is entitled to their own.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Only the other day i read a post on here about a one year old GSD that was put down because it bit someone and couldnt be helped..

imo a one year old pup has still alot to learn and im sure people like CM who rehabilitate dogs would have gone to the furthest of lengths to put such a young dog right..

If his methods save dogs from being put down then i honestly dont see a problem with them.

I saw the episode where he helped an Akita rebuild its confidence, the way he handled that dog with care and love was touching.

Half the work he does used to be with the help "Daddy" the pitbull. If you saw how calm that dog was and the way it helped to rehab these dogs you'd agree how effective his techniques are.

Not all his techniques are as bad as people on here them out to be. 

Take what works for you and your dog..he never says replicate his actions step by step. Instead he says go and see a professional if you are finding difficulties.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Thousands of dogs with aggression problems are rehabilitated through positive, non-domination methods too. I know which methods I'd sooner employ. :


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Thousands of dogs with aggression problems are rehabilitated through positive, non-domination methods too. I know which methods I'd sooner employ. :


Just out of curiosity, Do you remain calm and collected when you are training dogs?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Thousands of dogs with aggression problems are rehabilitated through positive, non-domination methods too. I know which methods I'd sooner employ. :


So why is it in this day and age a one year old GSD baby can be put to sleep?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

grandad said:


> Just out of curiosity, Do you remain calm and collected when you are training dogs?


Yes I do.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Now I ask you:
How you ever see how CM trains dogs? Not by watching tv but in real word?
Do you know how it looks like? Maybe you have seen videos on youtube which are showing that CM is using a e-collar to make his ksss sound works?
What about trainers who's are helping dogs after CM's work? They are really busy.

With CM is like with first aid and wound. Maybe he knows first aid but he cannot take care of the wound correctly. He is applying bandage on dirty wound, and believes that it is enough to properly heal it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Yes I do.


glad to hear it. I thought you may have had a short fuse ) and nice to hear you are using some of CM's philosophy )


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Andromeda - If you can provide me with information on trainers that have had to work with dogs that CM has previously worked with to correct his mistakes, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Andromeda said:


> Now I ask you:
> How you ever see how CM trains dogs? Not by watching tv but in real word?
> Do you know how it looks like? Maybe you have seen videos on youtube which are showing that CM is using a e-collar to make his ksss sound works?
> What about trainers who's are helping dogs after CM's work? They are really busy.
> ...


yet, they always seem to re-visit the clients, months and months afterwards for an update and the update is usually positive.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Would [Zak] have helped countless dogs like Apollo the Rottie that are on death row?


 - would Cesar have 'helped countless dogs' for FREE? :blink: 
in case U aren't aware, Cesar was paid - & very well, too, thanks - for what *training* he did.

- back when he still did individual consults [over 6-years ago], he was charging $350 an hour.

- he BRAGGED on 'Breakfast with the BBC' that he charged wealthy CEOs thousands for one day consults - 
they outbid one another to hire him.  more money than brains, if U ask me...

- thousands of trainers across the USA rehab dogs *without* the limelight; also *without* chokes, 
prongs, shock-collars, kennel-leads to choke-down dogs, Alpha-rolls, neck-pokes, pinning, etc. 
thousands of trainers around the world both teach & B-mod without such coercive tools or methods. 
that they don't have a TV-show in over 50 countries does not mean they are not successful. 


5rivers79 said:


> CM rehabilitates dogs, he does not train them.


*training* involves changing behavior --- so like it or not, as Cesar attempts to change behavior? he *'trains'.* 
it's an attempt, we need not measure results but only look at intentions: he *intends* to change behavior.


5rivers79 said:


> [Cesar] helped a dog with very low confidence issues that was afraid of loud noises.


which dog was that, & how long ago? [breed? Season? dog's name? anything?]

typically he immerses the dog in the situation / exposes the dog to the trigger & *precipitates* a reaction, 
then *punishes the reaction* or simply floods a fearful dog, keeping them in the situation till they quit reacting; 
this *is not a cure*, as learned helplessness is not a desirable suite of behaviors, besides being extremely 
stressful for the dog. There is also every probability that the dog will become *sensitized* & be even worse, 
reacting on less provocation or lower exposure than before [further away, lower volume, generalize, etc].


5rivers79 said:


> Rehab is totally different to training. Its like comparing physio to a personal intructor.


genuine rehabilitation requires *more knowledge of dog behavior* than ordinary teaching of everyday manners. 
B-Mod requires a broad knowledge of normal dog-behavior, extensive recognition of *stress-signals*, & good solid 
grounding in learning-theory & behavior-science. U don't _*have to*_ go to school to learn this, U can have mentors, 
read books, attend seminars, work under an instructor - but U have to learn it somehow.

a *physical-therapist* has studied anatomy & physiology, knows the origin & insertion of muscles, which muscles 
are used in what movements, the location of nerve bundles, the foramen that nerves enter in bones, how to stimulate 
circulation to help remove muscle-fatigue products, reads signs of exhaustion so they know when to *stop*, 
& is empathic toward their clients - they 'feel for them', they commiserate & encourage & boost morale. 
Physical therapy is hard work, often painful, slow & discouraging; they must support their clients emotionally, 
at least as much as they train them physically. PTs are tested, in writing, on standardized tests; they have to pass 
those tests to be licensed or certified. Most programs require on-going education, & proof U continue to study 
and learn, not just 'keep on doing', but attend teleconferences, take courses, re-certify periodically, & so on.

Cesar finished 9th-grade in a rural Mexican school; he was born in 1969, school begins [1975] & ends [1984]. 
how much science do U think he learned there? Was 'psychology' part of the curriculum? Biology? [doubtful.]

according to legend, 3-years later [1987] he arrives in the USA illegally at 18-YO speaking no English, he knows 
no-one; he works as a limo-driver & as a sweeper in a grooming-shop. The 2 women who own the shop are not keen 
to be bitten; they discover that Cesar is willing to wrestle difficult dogs into the bathtub & force them to stay in it. 
GREAT - he gets to coerce resistant or terrified dogs into allowing the bathing or grooming process, this is not about 
'teaching them to be happy in the tub' or *'teach them to be happy to be groomed'* - it's just _get it done._

some grooming clients have difficult [scared, untrained, reactive, resistant...] dogs; the groomers suggest 
Cesar help with their dog.

he meets his FIRST starlet-client while driving her limo; she can barely understand him, his accent is so thick 
& his English so poor. Jada Pinkett *hires an English tutor & pays for the tutor for a year, so she can 
understand what he's saying.* 
she refers him to her friends & acquaintances; they refer him to others. He makes real money, charging all the market 
will bear as his reputation spreads; he does not advertise because he's still undocumented here, but word-of-mouth 
is cheap.

in 2000 he becomes a legal resident; he speaks English well, thanks to his tutor & Jada. in 2002 he opens the original 
Dog-Psych Center; he's an ambitious man. At some point, his wife threatens divorce; they have machismo problems. 
[he claims in his first book to have rehabilitated himself, to keep his marriage & his boys, but the marriage 
eventually fails.] also in 2002 there's an article in the _L-A Times_, which helps create more business.

in 2003/4 he promotes himself to Natl-Geo [later he's sued by his then-agent for allegedly using the agent's video 
& other materials without compensating him] - he gets hired for a 30-minute NON-prime-time show. It gets attention, 
they move him to prime-time & make it an hour... he is now a *national brand*. Natl-Geo sells the show abroad; 
he is now an international 'name'. The poor kid is now a wealthy man, & a one-man industry.

November 2008 - 
the original Dog-Psych Center closes; the over-60 boarded dogs belonging to rescues & shelters are given 60-days 
to vacate over the winter-holidays, not easy for organizations run by volunteer help; the dogs all had 
behavior issues, Cesar *boarded them * for $15 per day per dog [60 x 15 x 7 x 4.3 = monthly $: *$27,090*], 
& he had paid staff to exercise them & prevent problems... They're the same dogs they were on arrival, these were 
many of the dogs seen on his TV-show from 2004 until now - but once again they have no home or safe-place, 
they can't live in a shelter & can't live in a foster-home with other dogs. 
Not Cesar's problem; he's moving.

March 2009 - he becomes a USA-citizen.

a 2009 article - 
Cesar Millan, Whispering to Dogs and C.E.O.s - NYTimes.com 


> _ ...his new glossy magazine, Cesars Way, or his four books, the latest... went on sale last week.
> His first three books, all New York Times best sellers, have cumulatively sold two million copies in the United States
> and are available in 14 other countries.
> 
> ...


he's a household name, an international brand, a corporation, a media star, a charitable foundation.

but he's still _making dogs do it - _ just as he was when he worked in the grooming shop, 
not teaching them to enjoy it but coercing them into doing what he wants. That's no warranty that the owners 
or the kids or the neighbors or the vet or the pet-sitter or the groomer or the dog-walker can 'make' her or him DO IT.

it's about getting it done - not doing it willingly, not enjoying the training process or learning to learn. 
it's _*'just Do It - or else...'*_ The implied coercion is always there.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I found this article an interesting read, it seems its not just kyle that thinks alpha/dominance training is outdated

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

im not going to get into the debate i just wanted to input my opinion that i also think that it is a thing of the past and positive reinforcement is the way to go, why would you want to put the fear of god into a dog that you love??


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

LeashedForLife, I don't want to sound as though I'm arguing here, as I've already said, I'm a bit on the fence about CM, but I do think some of his methods at least are very good and it certainly isn't all about punishment. But, I do think you are coming from a rather harsh point of view here. Why should someone be punished for being successful?! I say good luck to him if people are fighting to pay him thousands!! I wish I would have people fighting to pay me money! And I'd also ask what professional dog trainers do offer their services for free?! They all have to make a living.

I want to try and find out what episode the Akita one was, because if you watched it with an open mind, you might see that he's really not some money obsessed dog abuser! I'm not saying ALL his tactics are the best answer and that we should all be copying him, but I do find people who are anti him, can be a little closed minded that he might also be doing some good.

There was an episode I saw where he rescued dogs from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and tried to reunite them with their owners. A cynic could say he did it to make himself look good - but I'd rather be a little more open minded than that and have some faith in human nature


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

tashax said:


> I found this article an interesting read, it seems its not just kyle that thinks alpha/dominance training is outdated
> 
> http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf
> 
> im not going to get into the debate i just wanted to input my opinion that i also think that it is a thing of the past and positive reinforcement is the way to go, why would you want to put the fear of god into a dog that you love??


I just wanted to add, I have seen CM use a lot of positive reinforcement, and I've never seen him want to put "the fear of god" into a dog. I think that's a bit of a myth to be honest...


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

But he purposly sets the dog up to fail and then reprimands it for failing??
How is that positive reinforcement??


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Angels_Sin said:


> Andromeda - If you can provide me with information on trainers that have had to work with dogs that CM has previously worked with to correct his mistakes, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing it.


I cannot find it now, I heard many times about those peoples. Not necessarily it has to be one organisation, more likely individuals. 
But I'm trying to find more for you


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

tashax said:


> But he purposly sets the dog up to fail and then reprimands it for failing??
> How is that positive reinforcement??


Maybe I'm missing something that you guys who don't like him have seen - but when has he EVER done that?!! Seriously, I've seen a fair few episodes and he always talks about setting the dog up for success!

Oh and the education thing, that's not a secret, none of his past is, he talks about it openly and says he was educated about dogs by his Grandad and by watching how dogs interact with each other.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Andromeda said:


> I cannot find it now, I heard many times about those peoples. Not necessarily it has to be one organisation, more likely individuals.
> But I'm trying to find more for you


Thank you, I'd appreciate that. I think there is a lot of anti talk about Cesar on the internet, but I've never come across any solid proof to back up the claims being made.

The dominance/pack leader thing is debatable, and as I said earlier, I don't think people on here should be made to feel bad if they believe it has some credibility to it and enjoy watching the show (or enjoy watching it for other reasons). BUT, if Cesar has genuinely messed up dogs, then my opinion on him may change.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> - would Cesar have 'helped countless dogs' for FREE? :blink:
> in case U aren't aware, Cesar was paid - & very well, too, thanks - for what *training* he did.
> 
> - back when he still did individual consults [over 6-years ago], he was charging $350 an hour.
> ...


But everyone works for money..other dog trainers, vets, doctors, policemen, firemen..your telling me a doctor would go and work for free??

Every person on this planet is money motivated..its what makes the world go round. To think people will go out their way and help others for free is a very romantic notion...but in the real world it just doesnt work...even charities look for donations so they can get the resources to help.

If he gets paid more because he has become a brand then so be it..he has become successful from what he has achieved..thats not his fault...i doubt when he was a young lad in mexico he didnt think oh il make money out of bullying dogs??

The fact he didnt speak any english but committed himself to learn and become quite fluent in when he arrived in the USA is in itself worth commending. The guy imo is committed and that can only be a good thing.

Are there any animal welfare protestors banging on his door? If his actions are so demonic and barbaric then why has he not been pulled up for it? There are plenty of organisations for the welfare of animals and pets surely they would be asking him questions if they thought he was beating his dogs into submission?

No one works for free no matter how much they love their job


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I have seen an episode where a husky was scared of skateboards. So he got the neighbour hood kids to continually skateboard past the dog, 'nudging' the dog with his foot every time he reacts. How is that not making the dog more fearful of the situation?? Now instead of him simply being scared of skateboards he is terrified that if he sees a skateboard he will get 'nudged'?? 

That to me is setting the poor dog up to fail and making the fear of the object worse.
He floods the dogs instead of using systematic desensitization.

Flooding is a sink or swim method. The theory behind the method holds that high levels of anxiety and fear will be elicited quickly, and respondent extinction of fear will also occur quickly" (Burch & Bailey, 1999). 

According to Burch and Bailey (1999), police and military trainers use flooding to address fearfulness and anxiety along with old school trainers who believed dogs should be broken and that fearfulness was not tolerated and chose to throw dogs into scary situations not allowing them to escape. On the opposing side Burch and Bailey (1999) say, we believe systematic desensitization is a much more humane method of dealing with fear in dogs. Burch and Bailey (1999) said, flooding can result in overwhelming anxiety and distress and sometimes dogs may become so traumatizedthey lose control of their bladder and bowels and some may be so resistant they become aggressive and dangerous for the average person to handle. 

Now how can using a training method that can 'traumatize' the dog be helpfull in any way??


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

tashax said:


> I have seen an episode where a husky was scared of skateboards. So he got the neighbour hood kids to continually skateboard past the dog, 'nudging' the dog with his foot every time he reacts. How is that not making the dog more fearful of the situation?? Now instead of him simply being scared of skateboards he is terrified that if he sees a skateboard he will get 'nudged'??
> 
> That to me is setting the poor dog up to fail and making the fear of the object worse.
> He floods the dogs instead of using systematic desensitization.
> ...


OK you're right, I have seen him use floodng in the past, which as I pointed out before, I'm not sure I agree with in all cases, but he doesn't ALWAYS use this method. I'd also add though that I don't think it's a bad thing if used in the right way by someone who knows what they're doing.

It's not as though the dog was put in a seriously dangerous situation, it wasn't getting hurt so I don't know that I'd dismiss what he did in this case as cruel.

I'd only ask how the episode ended? If the dog got over its fear, surely thats a good thing?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I believe the dog didnt get over his fear and ended up biting the owner when trying to get away from the skate board (let me look this up though as i may have made it up )

Now i dont want any stick but i have seen 1 or 2 epidodes where he has generally helped the dog (these were the more DA dogs) and i will say that he is generally quite good at getting dogs over their dog aggression.

But i cant agree on most of his training methods.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

tashax said:


> I have seen an episode where a husky was scared of skateboards. So he got the neighbour hood kids to continually skateboard past the dog, 'nudging' the dog with his foot every time he reacts. How is that not making the dog more fearful of the situation?? Now instead of him simply being scared of skateboards he is terrified that if he sees a skateboard he will get 'nudged'??
> 
> That to me is setting the poor dog up to fail and making the fear of the object worse.
> He floods the dogs instead of using systematic desensitization.
> ...


Im sure owners of these dogs want anything but to traumatize their pets. Im guessing they will only call upon CM if they have tried everything including desensitizing.

Who in their right minds would pay $350 dollars an hour as a first port of call? Not all these owners that appear on the show look like rich minted CEO's.


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Most of the people he 'helps' know nothing about training methods otherwise they would have been able to sort the problem themselves 

Imagine that you have a dog that is basically uncontrolable and makes your life a misery. I think that as soon as he metions the fact that he can help them all rational thinking goes out the window and they dont question him.

Has anyone given any thought to the 'cases' he goes to that arent telivised??
Is there a reason they arent on tele?? Is it because his 'methods' didnt work?


----------



## Mistyweather (Jan 11, 2009)

OK, I have been watching some of these programmes to try and see if he came up with any help on making my old dog less fearful of thunder, fireworks and worst of all - mobile phones. Not really found anything yet, so what would you recommend instead. I am not fearful - I love thunder, lightning and fireworks, so it's not me he is picking up his fear from me, and he wasn't always like it - he used to be the most laid back of all the dogs I have ever owned


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Have a look through this link mistyweather and tell me what you think 
Six Effective Tips to Desensitize your Dog from Loud Noises | Small Dogs Paradise


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> ...If you can provide me with information on trainers that have had to work
> with dogs that CM has previously worked with to correct his mistakes, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing it.


Mr Millan is well-known to retain lawyers who respond to written criticism with lawsuits - even a nuisance suit 
is extremely expensive. This was their response when the _*Welfare in Dog-Training*_ website went live, 
the signatories were threatened with lawsuits & a number of USA-non-profits exited as a result; they do NOT have 
deep pockets, CM/DW has millions.

that said, a number of training colleagues in SoCal have complained about the enormous effort they expend on the 
Post-CM/DW cases, who may have had simple presenting-complaints to begin with, but whose issues became complex 
& much harder to live with, cope with, or re-train *after* being "whispered" than they were originally.

there were complaints on trainers-lists as early as January 2001 from various California trainers, well-before the SEPT 2002 
profile in the _*L-A Times*_ 'Living' section.

Cached copy - 
Redeeming Rover - Los Angeles Times



> _ Redeeming Rover
> 
> Cesar Millan helps incorrigible canines roll over a new leaf, find 'fulfillment'
> 
> ...


notice that the article is mostly emotive - there are no descriptions of any B-mod other than exercise, exercise, 
& more exercise; if U read his first book & add up the hours of aerobics, i got a total of 7-hours per day. 
*who can possibly make a full-time job of aerobic exercise for their dog?* 7-hours a day, 7-days a week?!

the TV-show did not begin until 2004 - there was alarm among his local dog-training-community as early as 1999.

conversely, see 
ART: Why Cesar Millan is not a 'whisperer' 
Why Cesar Millan Is Not a Whisperer « Menopausal Entrepreneur Blog

Chris Shaughness' specialty is the rehabilitation of former puppy-mill breeding stock as pet dogs,
in pet-homes. Such B-mod takes IMO considerably more skill than does *controlling* a dog by coercion, 
which anyone with sufficient upper-body strength can do.

re product-endorsements, both Merial [pharmaceuticals, June-2009] & Swiffer [cleaning products, 2010] got an earful 
from consumers & trainers when they paired with Millan as an image.

from the Clickertraining.com website archives - 
Clicker Training Community Blog | Karen Pryor Clickertraining 
EXCERPT - 


> _ Hello,
> 
> I am appalled and disapointed that a website / newsletter that is associated with Karen Pryor would allow such
> a trival, mean & biased article appear. These seems to be quite a bit of envy amoung the clicker / treat training group
> ...


my reply - 


> wow -
> i'm a *treat-slinging weenie*!  i had No Idea...
> 
> what happens if i toss-toys? do i lose my status?
> ...


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

grandad said:


> glad to hear it. I thought you may have had a short fuse ) and nice to hear you are using some of CM's philosophy )


Short fuse? Maybe sometimes with certain people but never with animals!:nonod:

It is not CMs philosophy though. I've been training dogs since I was 11 years old - a darn sight longer than him. (38 years) It simply made sense to be calm and laidback etc. Nothing to do with Cesars' little mantras. Heck! we didn't even have 4 channels back then let alone 100's!  Tsk! Now I am feeling old. <shuffles off calmly>


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

an article by my friend & colleague Casey Lomonaco on KP's website - 


> _ How to Create a Reactive Human in 10 Minutes or Less
> By Casey Lomonaco on 06/01/2009
> 
> Filed in - Fundamentals - Training Theory
> ...


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mistyweather said:


> ...I have been watching some of these programmes to... see if he [offers] any help
> on making my old dog less fearful of thunder, fireworks and worst of all - mobile phones. Not really found anything yet,
> so what would you recommend instead.


there are 3 articles by Trish McConnell on this thread, plus other sources - 
noise-phobia: very difficult to Tx successfully - Pet Forums Community

pairing calmatives with calm settings, then using them under mild stress, then *repeating* calm setting 
& calmatives, maintains the association between calm, contented experiences & the calmative. See this post - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 
for What, How, When, etc.



Mistyweather said:


> I am not fearful - I love thunder, lightning & fireworks, so it's not me he is picking up his fear from...,
> & he wasn't always like it - he used to be the most laid back of all the dogs
> I have ever owned


dogs usually have some sort of scary or bad experience with ONE loud-sound, which may not have been memorable 
to U - then with age, they begin to generalize: more & more sounds at lower & lower volumes become scary.


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Mr Millan is well-known to retain lawyers who respond to written criticism with lawsuits - even a nuisance suit
> is extremely expensive. This was their response when the _*Welfare in Dog-Training*_ website went live,
> the signatories were threatened with lawsuits & a number of USA-non-profits exited as a result; they do NOT have
> deep pockets, CM/DW has millions.


He has made millions step by step because his work has given him fame..i dont think he was born the multi millionaire dog whisperer.

Anyone who becomes rich and famous will have people attempting law suits against them.

If his methods were picked up on before he got famous then why was nothing done about it..i doubt legal expenses would have been soo much against him had something been done before he was on tv or famous.

He made his own fame..and so can other dog trainers if they try..but people like this Zak have time to make a video on why CM is barbaric but his own videos take an eternity to get to the point regarding training.

The question has still not been answered..why are one year old pups being put down when they still have a whole life time to learn by positive reinforcement?

Also please someone advise me of a trainer who does it out of care and love and not money..if these people are training for free then why did i pay £50 for a 6 week course in basic puppy good citizen classes?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Also please someone advise me of a trainer who does it out of care and love and not money..if these people are training for free then why did i pay £50 for a 6 week course in basic puppy good citizen classes?


Come here then, I pay £10 a year for membership and £2 per class. Those costs cover the hall that is hired and any money left over at the end of the year is donated to both local rescues.

Good citizen classes are £12 including the course and test.

I'm not alone either, this is a common practice in dog training clubs.

My dog trainer HATES ceaser and have told a few people who come into classes coping their methods that what they are doing is harming their dogs rather than helping.

I took a dog with issues and through hard work i've got her where I can trust her now. I never once used any of ceasers methods on her, but rather my own positive ones.

Home - Prince Rock Dog Training and Agility Club

Prince Rock Dog Training & Agility Club, Plymouth

This is my dog training, feel free to see and have a look, it's positive dog training


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Also please someone advise me of a trainer who does it out of care and love and not money..if these people are training for free then why did i pay £50 for a 6 week course in basic puppy good citizen classes?


That is very reasonable actually.  Most trainers have to hire premises - that costs money. Most good trainers have done qualifications, attended courses and seminars, bought upteen DVDs and books etc to help further their education. Most responsible trainers purchase Third Party Liability and of Public Indemnity Insurance. Most trainers have to have a car and pay for their own diesel/petrol etc to and from classes. Then there are all the hidden costs - printing costs if they give out handouts for one. Then people want training courses for next to nothing? £50 for 6 weeks works out at £8.34 per session. Not bad for someone spending the time teaching you how to train your dog and get the best out of it.


----------



## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Watching this right now by Zak, it's very interesting.
> 
> [youtube_browser]nSWJwKySv-w[/youtube_browser]


I used to be a MASSIVE fan and even posted on here about not being ashamed to be a fan of CM when I first came to the forum.
Having been on this forum for a little while, opening my eyes more and researching into different techniques etc I have realised that even though there are one or two things CM taught that were good like, lets say... 
he always taught people just how important excercise is for a dog (but then again allot of other people promote this too)...
even though he taught this, the majority of his teachings were telling people to lead this very un-cooperative, "I'm the boss, do as I say!!", harsh and at some times un peacefull lifestyle even though he says it'll bring harmony ot the house hold, harmony for who?
If there is a more peacefull, POSITIVE way to get the same results, a way that both human and canine are happy with... why wouldn't you do it?
CM is the trainer/rehibillitator of the past, all things evolve for a reason.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

OK what is he trying to say, I don't understand him, he sounds a bit ut: ut: ut: ut: to me.


Oh god, I don't believe I'm doing this, I not really a fan of his.

But Cesar is only called in to help as a last resort, after the owners have failed to control their dog. He is not there to help easy to train dogs and owners. If all dogs were easy he would not be needed.

I think some dogs need more guidance than others, some are rescues with very bad background and he has a way of getting through to them.


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> That is very reasonable actually.  Most trainers have to hire premises - that costs money. Most good trainers have done qualifications, attended courses and seminars, bought upteen DVDs and books etc to help further their education. Most responsible trainers purchase Third Party Liability and of Public Indemnity Insurance. Most trainers have to have a car and pay for their own diesel/petrol etc to and from classes. Then there are all the hidden costs - printing costs if they give out handouts for one. Then people want training courses for next to nothing? £50 for 6 weeks works out at £8.34 per session. Not bad for someone spending the time teaching you how to train your dog and get the best out of it.


No, my point is we still have to pay..the point was made cos it was posted why does he not do his work for free? Trainers have to earn a living and they make that living out of dog training...that is why they go on courses, get qualifications and educate themselves further.

By the way the guy that held the classes also taught in a method that related to the dominance theory. Iv posted that in another thread too somewhere, Jan Fennal method i think.


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Come here then, I pay £10 a year for membership and £2 per class. Those costs cover the hall that is hired and any money left over at the end of the year is donated to both local rescues.
> 
> Good citizen classes are £12 including the course and test.
> 
> ...


I would come there, but getting to Plymouth would cost more than staying here in Brummie Land. lol

Gotta say those classes look good though. Sammy was looked upon as a dominant dog from the off because he was an Akita at his classes but the trainers soon relaxed with him. Although they didnt let many dogs interact..they said big dogs even looking at each other could set off pandamonium! I had to make sure Sammy didnt look at a particular dog in the class cos it would go crazy and bark at Sammy just for looking at him.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> ...I'm a bit on the fence about CM, but I do think some of his methods at least are very good
> & it certainly isn't all about punishment.


* where & when have U seen him reward or praise a dog, on camera?

please name the dog/breed, the season [1 - 7], & the episode-number - a link to watch it would be nice. 
by reward i mean something OTHER THAN verbal praise - a treat, play with a toy, a real-life reward [open the door, 
put down the food-bowl, take off he leash & let the dog run, put on the leash & take for a walk...].

*CM/DW praises the owner; in all the episodes i watched from #1 of season #1 thru August of 2009, 
i never once heard him praise a dog for good behavior, or offer a game, treat, etc - as a reward.*

the few times he attempted to use food in B-Mod [associate the scary-trigger with the treat], he put the dogs over 
their thresholds & they could no more eat than U could sit down to a 5-course meal an hour before the SATs, 
& enjoy every mouthful; *stress affects appetite.*


Angels_Sin said:


> ...I do think you are coming from a rather harsh point of view here. Why should someone
> be punished for being successful?! I say good luck to him if people are fighting to pay him thousands!!
> I wish I would have people fighting to pay me money! And I'd also ask what professional dog trainers do offer
> their services for free?! They all have to make a living.


 - i never suggested he be PUNISHED for being successful; i pointed out that he is not Mother Theresa, 
caring for the lepers, the homeless & destitute, out of his overflowing compassion.

- plenty of my colleagues *and i myself* have donated many hours of service as volunteers in shelters, 
& outside of shelters to help adopters who have dogs with major behavioral issues, to help fosters to get dogs 
started toward good manners *before* they are placed or even offered for adoption, & so on. 


Angels_Sin said:


> ...if you watched it with an open mind, you might see that he's really not some money obsessed
> dog abuser! I'm not saying ALL his tactics are the best answer and that we should all be copying him, but I do find
> people who are anti [Cesar], can be a little [close-minded] that he might also be doing some good.


 - much of what Cesar says that is true, was bald & whiskery when i first heard it as a child. 
_'dogs need exercise.' _ Duh.  _'dogs need boundaries.'_ Duh! This is news?...

- much of what Cesar says which is Un-true is 30-years to over-60-years old: dominance, pack-theory, hierarchy, 
using WW-2 handling methods to train AKA rehab or control AKA manage, & so on.

- some of what Cesar says that is un-true is his own 'stuff' - _energies_ controlling the dog, to use one's 'energy' 
to 'take control of the space' or 'take control of the food' [in the bowl], etc.

He actually stated in one episode that _'the _[right, correct, proper, or equivalent] _energies can CURE aggression'._ 
IMO outright hooey - aggro can be reduced, retrained, re-directed, managed, & so on; it's not GONE because it's NORMAL. 
problematic aggro is misdirected or inapropos; *aggro is among the reasons we WANT dogs.* we want our dog 
to alert us to a visitor, to react to an intruder, to defend us [if only by barking] from a threat, to protect our kids, 
their own pups, our livestock from predators, & so on. 
there is nothing wrong with aggro, per se; only when it's the wrong target or an over-reaction is it a concern. 


Angels_Sin said:


> ...[in one] episode I saw... he rescued dogs from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and tried
> to reunite them with their owners. A cynic could say he did it to make himself look good - but I'd rather
> be a little more open minded than that and have some faith in human nature


* the dogs had Already Been rescued; the non-profit rescues who had them in custody were consulting CM/DW. 
he did not IOW go to N'Awlins & go out in a boat to remove dogs from houses isolated by filthy, toxic water. 
these dogs were already in care.

* do i think it was to enhance his image? :huh: of course. Katrina & the aftermath got a lot of press. 
do i think it was a terrible thing to do? No - but i wish they'd gotten advice from someone else, very frankly.

that someone's intentions are good does not guarantee that the outcome will be good.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> If his methods were picked up on before he got famous then why was nothing done about it[?]
> i doubt legal expenses would have been soo much against him had something been done before he was on tv or famous.


any number of _*credentialed professionals*_ including the American Humane Assoc, which oversees film, 
stage & other productions for the safety & well-being of animal & child performers, & Nicholas Dodman, 
head of the Behavioral-Medicine dept of Tufts Univ College of Veterinary Medicine, were sent trailers 
*before* the series began; they objected strenuously, as see:

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan 
EXCERPT - 


> READ MORE About Cesar Millan:
> NEW! -
> American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - Letter to Merial
> American Humane Association - "Dog Whisperer Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful"
> ...





5rivers79 said:


> The question has still not been answered - why are One-Year-Old Pups being put down when they still have a [lifetime] to learn by positive reinforcement?


for pity's SAKE, Rivers - how the *H**** do we know? :mad5:

U give no details whatever, offer ONE supposed case with no explanation, & we are supposed to divine the answer? 
how about a Tarot reading, Ouija board, or an automatic-writing session with a deceased Pharaoh as a spirit-guide?!

some suggestions - 
* the owner is too bloody lazy or too bloody cheap or too bloody impatient 
* the [bitee] is suing them in court, & they cannot afford the liability 
* the dog has a serious *untreatable* condition: rage-syndrome, focal seizures, brain tumor, other. 
* the owner has been told by their vet, their groomer, their neighbor, the local k9-handler on the police-force, 
or someone else *whom they believe* that the dog is hopeless.

* any other potentially possible or IMpossible reason under the sun. :thumbdown:

we don't know sod-all about the dog, the family, the circumstances. 
this is a stoopid question because it is *impossible to answer* without more *facts.*


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

I saw an episode where he cured a little pooch that kept eating its own faeces by feeding it a banana..omg how inhumane is CM!! He fed a dog a banana..tut tut how barbaric!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rivers, U said - 


> Originally Posted by 5rivers79
> 
> _The question has still not been answered - why are One-Year-Old Pups being put down when they still have a [lifetime]
> to learn by positive reinforcement?_


and i responded as best i could. 


leashedForLife said:


> for pity's SAKE, Rivers - how the *H**** do we know? :mad5:
> 
> U give no details whatever, offer ONE supposed case with no explanation, & we are supposed to divine the answer?
> how about a Tarot reading, Ouija board, or an automatic-writing session with a deceased Pharaoh as a spirit-guide?!
> ...


grunt, so i know U read it?... Thanks.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I prefer people to be more direct and to the point but would still like to see some more of his videos
> which are actually demonstrating his techniques.


more technique, less dialogue - 
YouTube - ‪Nail clipping the easy way (starring Noch)‬‏

AVOIDING chase-behavior by a BC-pup around skateboards: 
pro-active beats reactive 
YouTube - ‪Train your dog to be calm around Skateboards: Clicker Training Puppies‬‏

UNsafe handling - 
YouTube - ‪SuperBark1's Channel‬‏

safe handling - 
YouTube - ‪SuperBark1's Channel‬‏


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Honey Bee said:


> At least it isn't a pre written script and Zak's saying it from the heart.


Cesar will not work without a script; no open interviews, no live questions unless they're cleared ahead of time. :thumbdown: 
his PR-manager has to vet everything.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> I saw an episode where he cured a little pooch that kept eating its own faeces by feeding it a banana..omg how inhumane is CM!! He fed a dog a banana..tut tut how barbaric!


One 'cure' for coprophagia is to feed the dog fruit such as pineapple or banana which apparently makes the poop offensive in smell and taste to the dog. He must have _(actually)_ done a bit of research to find out how to 'cure' the little dog. 

LeashedforLife, you are so bad you know. Why are you fighting this blind adulatation of the gleaming-toothed one? Such a waste of energy because as you and I both know, those of us with many, many years of experience behind us of actually working to rehabilitate problem dogs (including those on 'last chance') and teaching owners how to train their dogs etc know NOTHING! Zilch! Nada! Zero! You know why this is LFL? This is because we have not watched a few CM programmes and learned all we know from them! :mad2: We got it wrong!!! All dogs are dominant and out to rule the world! We must alpha roll them all!!!! :crazy:


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Crazy Dog Training - Home

Oh nooo these are pro CM dog trainers!!!!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> One 'cure' for coprophagia is to feed the dog fruit such as pineapple or banana which apparently makes the poop offensive in smell and taste to the dog. He must have _(actually)_ done a bit of research to find out how to 'cure' the little dog.
> :crazy:


The dog also stopped eating house hold rubbish and chocolate, im sure the banana that the dog ate did not get infused into the rubbish and chocolate to make them smell offensive.

CM aside..dont get me wrong but i respect the years of training you have..but that still is not a reason to plainly dismiss someone who has helped dogs and got fame from it.

Whether or not his methods are accepted or not one thing is for sure he has taken dog training etc into the mainstream and alot more people will go to professionals because of it rather than be stuck with dogs they cant control.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Why do you fight this blind adulatation of the gleaming-toothed one?
> Such a waste of energy... as we both know, those of us with many, many years of experience behind us of actually working
> to rehabilitate problem dogs (including 'last chance' dogs) & teaching owners how to train their dogs etc know NOTHING!
> Zilch! Nada! Zero! You know why this is LFL?
> ...


Caro, i watched *every single episode* from the very-first 20-mins of airtime in 2004 thru August-2009. 
quite a few i saw 3 or 4 times - i am totally over watching anything-Cesar, ever again in this lifetime... unless he starts 
clicker-training 30-day-old Golden pups as future-SDs, like Puppy-Prodigies, or teaching k9-freestyle - THEN i'll watch.

if it's just the same old one-trick-pony *Dumbinance* hooey, i've had more than enuf for 3 or 4 lifetimes, thanks. :thumbdown:


----------



## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

grandad said:


> > Originally Posted by CarolineH
> > Yes I do.
> 
> 
> glad to hear it. I thought you may have had a short fuse ) and nice to hear you are using some of CM's philosophy )


I haven't read the whole thread yet so if this has already been pointed out I apologize.

I know, I know, comparing dogs to children here again - BUT - if a self proclaimed child expert had *some* good ideas on how to raise children, but they also recommended locking them in the closet to cure them of a fear of the dark or holding their thumb over a burner if they reached for the stove then it wouldn't matter to me that *some* of what they said was credible. Thing of it is when someone does something (or a lot of things in Cesar's case) that causes me to lose all respect for them it outweighs any good that they do. People are calm when training because of him? Fat lot of good that does when they're calmly choking their dog with a prong collar, calmly pinning the dog till it pees out of fear or calmly shocking it till it is terrified of the family cat.

Okay, back to reading.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jonesey said:


> ...when someone does something... that causes me to lose all respect for them, it outweighs any good
> that they do.
> 
> People are "calm when training" because of him? Fat lot of good that does when they're calmly choking their dog
> ...


actually, i find the disconnect between their actions & their emotions very weird - downright bizarre, in fact.

being utterly calm & dissociated while doing something hurtful, spiteful, painful, or otherwise emotionally-loaded is strange, 
IMO & IME, & not normal; psychopathic people can often do horrific things, yet do them very calmly & dispassionately. 
if U are going to throttle someone, IMO it is 'better' - or at least, more-normal! - to have some emotion about that, 
rather than act as tho it's an early chess-move on a peaceful, unhurried afternoon in a friendly game. :crazy:


----------



## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> actually, i find the disconnect between their actions & their emotions very weird - downright bizarre, in fact.
> 
> being utterly calm & dissociated while doing something hurtful, spiteful, painful, or otherwise emotionally-loaded is strange,
> IMO & IME, & not normal; psychopathic people can often do horrific things, yet do them very calmly & dispassionately.
> ...


That's so true. Quite frankly the only time I'm tempted to strike anyone/anything is when I'm angry and I attribute that to being stuck myself by my parents when I made them mad - and it's the same thing I read here from angry posters when dogs are abused, they often wish the same abuse upon the abuser - but you'd never think of doing violence when you're calm and assertive.


----------



## zigzoe (Jun 19, 2011)

- When did U last see a dog who refused to eat at all - & as a direct result, starved to death, rather than eat?! 
:lol: what kaka - they don't exist!  *humans* develop anorexia or bulemia, dogs don't. *No dog* i've heard of 
committed suicide by refusing to eat any food whatever.[/QUOTE]

kaka it is not-your misinterpreting what he said is! My dog Ziggy is not food oriented at all. He frequently goes a day or two without eating anything! Therefore a treat oriented training would not work with him. He has never liked toys and is truly bull-headed. That being said I LOVE him. He is not the most well-behaved animal but he may well be the most loved, I find ways to deal with his bad behaviors.

I think CM has done some marvelous things and I agree with those who say that any method will work as long as the commitment is there. Those who say he is a bully have not truly watched him in action. Bullying is not what he is trying to do, he wants the dog to know who is making the rules. I think the method of dominance is great--but it has been abused and that is what we think of when it comes up. Dominance is not making a dog fear it is making a dog respect. The same thing that people expect from their children. Maybe his method just needs a new name. He has great ideas. And uses a lot of the same techniques that others do.


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Cesar will not work without a script; no open interviews, no live questions unless they're cleared ahead of time. :thumbdown:
> his PR-manager has to vet everything.


Im sure any random person attending his seminars could just ask the questions you are posing. What will his PR people do? Grab that person and throw them out??

Sounds more like a mafia organisation lol

Also Zigzoe it is known that dogs can suffer from depression which can lead to loss of appetite:

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/depression-in-dogs.html


----------



## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> One 'cure' for coprophagia is to feed the dog fruit such as pineapple or banana which apparently makes the poop offensive in smell and taste to the dog. He must have _(actually)_ done a bit of research to find out how to 'cure' the little dog.
> 
> LeashedforLife, you are so bad you know. Why are you fighting this blind adulatation of the gleaming-toothed one? Such a waste of energy because as you and I both know, those of us with many, many years of experience behind us of actually working to rehabilitate problem dogs (including those on 'last chance') and teaching owners how to train their dogs etc know NOTHING! Zilch! Nada! Zero! You know why this is LFL? This is because we have not watched a few CM programmes and learned all we know from them! :mad2: We got it wrong!!! All dogs are dominant and out to rule the world! We must alpha roll them all!!!! :crazy:


Well done you managed to combine criticism of CM and the people here who like some of his techniques, with one of the most complex uses of sarcasm ever. ( Did you see my use of sarcasm there?)

People can surely take guidance and advice from as many sources as they wish, they really don't need you basically giving such an arrogant outburst as above.

I myself have watched a few episodes of DW, and tbh the one's i've seen he always seems to take the dogs to his pack. So far as I have seen, he run's a very successful socialization class. I'm not an officionado on the program so can't really comment on the rest of his techniques, but he seems to gain supporters and detractors in equal measure. I guess i'll have to watch a few more before i come to more of an opinion on him, or whether he some techniques that have some worth


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> Well done you managed to combine criticism of CM and the people here who like some of his techniques, with one of the most complex uses of sarcasm ever. ( Did you see my use of sarcasm there?)
> 
> People can surely take guidance and advice from as many sources as they wish, they really don't need you basically giving such an arrogant outburst as above.


Thank you for your valuable input. I'll get back to you when I have the inclination. x :001_wub:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Caro, i watched *every single episode* from the very-first 20-mins of airtime in 2004 thru August-2009.
> quite a few i saw 3 or 4 times - i am totally over watching anything-Cesar, ever again in this lifetime... unless he starts
> clicker-training 30-day-old Golden pups as future-SDs, like Puppy-Prodigies, or teaching k9-freestyle - THEN i'll watch.
> 
> if it's just the same old one-trick-pony *Dumbinance* hooey, i've had more than enuf for 3 or 4 lifetimes, thanks. :thumbdown:


Same experience as me then. So many watch it and take it as the correct way to deal with dogs though, because it is on the tv and because he is famous so it MUST be right! Quite scary really and quite sad too - for the dogs.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

TBH i think its scary that people can be influenced by a random man on the t.v :shocked:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Will try to summarise this....

Why are some of us against CM?

1) Most of what he states as "fact" is based on an old theory disproven decades ago. 

2) Some of what he states as "fact" is nothing more than made up nonsense. controlling dogs using energy? Dogs trying to be dominant over light? Seriously??? 

3) He uses the highly inaccurate (ie downright false) theories above to justify abusive handling.

So why do we say CM is a dog abuser?

1) What he does..... 

Flooding, collar corrections, choke chains, prong collars, the Illusion (garrotte) collar, electric shock collars, hitting, jabbing, kicking, hanging (to the point of asphyxiation), pinning, alpha rolls, etc......

2) The effect his abuse has on the dogs.....

Dogs yelping, running away from him, hiding from him, throwing calming signals, cowering, shaking, pi$$ing themselves, and biting (either direct aggro - biting CM, or re-directed aggro - biting the owner).

There are plenty of folk out there working as trainers / behaviourists / rescue workers / owners etc solving the same problems CM faces, WITHOUT abusing dogs. I say we give them the fame and fortune. 

Personally I'm fed up of people buying Voodoo Milan's Magic Beans and their dogs suffering for it!


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## zigzoe (Jun 19, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Im sure any random person attending his seminars could just ask the questions you are posing. What will his PR people do? Grab that person and throw them out??
> 
> Sounds more like a mafia organisation lol
> 
> ...


Actually Ziggy has ALWAYS been that way. He is a pretty spunky dog to be depressed but then anything is possible. The breeder told me that while he was not the runt of his litter, by 2 weeks the runt out weighed him.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> I guess i'll have to watch a few more before i come to more of an opinion on him,
> or whether he some techniques that have some worth


suggestion - 
the FIRST time U watch an episode, mute the sound; watch the dog's body-language, *without* the narrator, 
the mood-setting music, or the comments from Cesar - just listen to the dogs with Ur eyes.

then having seen it without sound & carefully noted the dog's reactions & behavior visually, 
watch it again with the sound - notice how often the dog's signals are ignored, trivialized or wrongly labeled.

it is extremely-common for Cesar to label a terrified dog as 'dominant'. 
or claim that shaking hind-legs mean the dog is 'learning', when it actually indicates severe stress & distress. :nonod: 
OTOH it is rare for anyone to accurately parse the dog's signals on camera, point them out & correctly 
label the dog's indicated emotion or intention: whale-eyes, lowered head, ears akimbo, tail tucked, etc.

it's eye-opening to observe the dog try desperately to communicate, be ignored or worse, misinterpreted, 
& then steam-rollered with the application of heavy-handed techniques that shut the dog down.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> it's eye-opening to observe the dog try desperately to communicate, be ignored or worse, misinterpreted,
> & then steam-rollered with the application of heavy-handed techniques that shut the dog down.


Here to help you *sheriffjonny*, should you choose to watch a few episodes with the sound off, is a list of signals that dogs use and the meaning behind them based on many years of observation by Turid Rugaas.  Calming Signals Maybe print it out and have it to hand when you watch it?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

notice the ages of these pups - future SDs in the making - these are the videos available as samples.

Video Clips



> These clips include instinctual training, lure/reward training, using 'yes' as a marker, and clicker training.
> These are not 'finished' behaviors, but showcase the learning potential of puppies at these various ages.
> 
> 13 days old NEW
> ...


feel free to explain how 'dominance' or 'pack-theory' enters into these behaviors, & how either could be 
used for early-learning to shape a future dog into not merely *willing* but downright *eager* compliance.

i'll give U a decade or three to frame an answer; meanwhile, litters are born every day to benighted numpties 
who sell their pups at only 6-WO, & whose vet assures the buyer in all seriousness that _'it's not a problem', _ 
& even more, tells them that the puppy _ 'will outgrow this minor issue.'_ - 
as see 
puppy + arguments = broken family - Pet Forums Community

she has a 15-WO *Staffie-cross*! who left dam & sibs at only 6-WO; & the pup is biting to cause bleeding, 
but according to her vet, it's nothing to do with his too-early departure, & he'll get over it without intervention; 
it won't cause long-term problems. :shocked: 
i have a tic under my eye...


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## tillymax (Jun 27, 2011)

Cesar Millan is a legend. I dont feel a dog has to prance around retreiving toys and doing tricks to be a well rounded dog. In my opinion a dog should know its place in the pack and trust you as the pack leader, without the revolation I had by watching cesars programmes tilly would still be "the asbo dog" as known locally and although I have my own twist on his training methods tilly can now walk past dogs, even ones that are going for her, without trying to (litrally) kill them and try and grab me in the process and now just walks past them as if they arn't there. Would love to meet cesar one day


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Like i say, it's not something i watch often, i don't know what time it's on even, but if i find myself in front of the tv and it's on i will turn the sound off, i won't be looking at that link you gave me tho, just looking at the meanings of yawning was enough for me. It meant everything else before it would mean the dog is tired, and that only due to overworking it!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

zigzoe said:


> Those who say he is a bully have not truly watched him in action.
> Bullying is not what he is trying to do, he wants the dog to know who is making the rules.


i have not "truly watched him"?! :shocked: Give over! after 5-years of watching attentively, muted & with sound, 
*every* episode, many multiple times, i HAVE truly watched him - much-more than most of his fans.

moreover, after over 30-years of training, rearing & handling dogs, i have an informed opinion on his tools, 
methods & philosophies, as repeatedly demonstrated & expressed verbally on that TV-show.

whether he is _tryin__g to bully_ or not-trying, the end result is the same: he often does bully, as that is shorthand 
for coercion, AKA forced compliance - _*You will, or else...*_ the unspoken threat is implicit in such methods.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> Like i say, it's not something i watch often, i don't know what time it's on even, but if i find myself in front of the tv and it's on i will turn the sound off, *i won't be looking at that link you gave me tho, just looking at the meanings of yawning was enough for me. It meant everything else before it would mean the dog is tired, and that only due to overworking it!!*


I give up. :mad2: I can't do this thread any more. I'll come back when you are willing to learn something new instead of holding on to what you think you know. Not meaning to have a go but no other way of saying it. <sighs>

You know something? When I first got into dog training, it was through the late and controversial Barbara Woodhouse? Since then I have learned a lot more - through taking on new, better researched information. A closed mind does not learn and evolve.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> I give up. :mad2: I can't do this thread any more. I'll come back when you are willing to learn something new instead of holding on to what you think you know. Not meaning to have a go but no other way of saying it. <sighs>
> 
> You know something? When I first got into dog training, it was through the late and controversial Barbara Woodhouse? Since then I have learned a lot more - through taking on new, better researched information. A closed mind does not learn and evolve.


Give up then, i'd rather not be lectured by you anyway. I did put that wrong tho, i had a look at the link. But i won't be watching the show with a copy of that in front of me. I thought it was pretty obvious that yawning means tiredness. It may mean something else as well, but surely the primary meaning is tiredness, after eading all the bumpf before getting to that point, i wasn't gonna bother reading the rest of it


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> I give up. :mad2: I can't do this thread any more. I'll come back when you are willing to learn something new instead of holding on to what you think you know. Not meaning to have a go but no other way of saying it. <sighs>
> 
> You know something? When I first got into dog training, it was through the late and controversial Barbara Woodhouse? Since then I have learned a lot more - through taking on new, better researched information. *A closed mind does not learn and evolve. *


I certainly do not have that impression from you and the gang :001_huh:


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## zigzoe (Jun 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i have not "truly watched him"?! :shocked: Give over! after 5-years of watching attentively, muted & with sound,
> *every* episode, many multiple times, i HAVE truly watched him - much-more than most of his fans.
> 
> moreover, after over 30-years of training, rearing & handling dogs, i have an informed opinion on his tools,
> ...


Sounds like you have had to many people use his methods incorrectly and you as a trainer are ticked off about it. Get over it! No one is perfect and no one's methods work on every dog. If you dispute this than I will know that you are not someone to listen to.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

zigzoe said:


> Sounds like you have had to many people use his methods incorrectly & you as a trainer are ticked off about it.


that would be a _*'no'*_ - i am speaking solely of the Dog-Whisperer TV-show, the methods & tools as shown 
during episodes of that show, & the words as spoken by the host of that show. Presumably, Mr Millan *does know* 
how to perform the things he suggests, correctly - as he is their proponent? 


zigzoe said:


> Get over it! No one is perfect & no one's methods work on every dog.
> If you dispute this than I will know that you are not someone to listen to.


the claim has been repeatedly made that *no methods other than confrontation, harsh handling, etc, 
will work with the dogs which are seen on this TV-show.* yet many of my reward-based colleagues, & myself, 
work with dogs who have similar issues as seen on the show, *without* such tools or methods, & succeed.

can U offer an explanation for this? 


zigzoe said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> No one is perfect & *no one's methods work on every dog*.
> If you dispute this than I will know that you are not someone to listen to.


i did not claim that _anyone is perfect. _

i do, however, firmly maintain that _reward-based training & Behavior-modification, AKA 'rehab', 
will work on any dog - size, age, breed, past history, presenting problem, etc - if they are able 
to be salvaged at all._ 
dogs with dog-aggro, severe past aggression to humans, who have killed livestock or family-pets or other dogs, 
with bite-histories, compulsive behaviors, fears & phobias, global anxiety, & more, have all been helped with pos-R.

there are reward-based trainers who specialize in aggression only - & succeed without chokes, prongs, or shock, 
no pokes, A-rolls or pinning, no confrontations, no slip-leads to choke-down a dog, etc; some have done it for decades, 
they don't have TV-shows but they do have their many successes.

the exceptions -
there are a few dogs who are simply not salvageable - they have medical issues which are untreatable, owners 
who simply lack the money or the time or skills or resources, or all of the above, to successfully help this dog, 
or are otherwise not able to be re-trained, or have their unsafe behaviors made safe. 
if U live in a very-rural area, have limited financial resources, no access to a vet-behaviorist, & a dog with serious issues, 
the odds are high that the dog will be euthanized. *however - * the Internet has lowered the risk for even these cases, 
by bringing good, humane B-Mod within closer reach of almost anyone.

many dogs are saved by their owners, working on their own from books, DVDs, via e-mail support or phone-calls, 
on-line lists, sending VIDEOS for evaluation to a distant trainer, & so on. 
i am very proud of these people - & they don't get TV-shows, either; i wish they did. Their dogs are shining examples 
of what can be accomplished in recovering an animal from behavior that threatened to shorten their lives. 
These owners are proof-positive of just how devoted we can be to our dogs, & how much that bond matters, 
for the lives of dogs & their people. The human-animal bond literally can - and does! - save lives.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Sounds like you have had to many people use his methods incorrectly and you as a trainer are ticked off about it. Get over it!


This thread isn't about "other" trainers - its about CM.

So do you think CM was correct when he stated that one dog was "dominant over light"?

Was he correct when he stated the dog that cowered, backed away and trembled was "shaking because he's learning"?

Was his method of hanging a dog correct?

What about the great dane he dragged onto a slippery floor or the St Bernard he dragged up the stairs (both on high placed choke chains I believe). Was he correct to do this, when it is fairly common knowledge that giant breeds should be kept AWAY from slippery floors and stairs?

Was CM using the correct method when the dog he was shocking turned and bit its owner? What about all the times he got himslef bitten?

PLEASE, will somebody explain to me how using brute force and violence, causing pain, fear and distress in the process, is NOT bullying?



> I thought it was pretty obvious that yawning means tiredness. It may mean something else as well, but surely the primary meaning is tiredness, after eading all the bumpf before getting to that point, i wasn't gonna bother reading the rest of it


Therein lies the problem. A lot of people, like yourself, fail to notice calming signals, or indeed misinterpret them, which is why you get so many claims of dogs biting etc "without warning".

Certainly dogs yawn when they're tired, nobody is disputing that. But in a different context, when the dog is clearly not tired, yawning means something very different. Same with panting. If it was a warm day, or the dog had been running around, you would expect him to pant. But when that's not the case? When he has no physical reason to pant? You look for the alternative.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - ‪Dog Dominant to Light?‬‏

in the video below, i would NOT start working B-mod at a distance where he reacted - 
YouTube - ‪PodeesAggression (Narrated) | drsophiayin.com‬‏ 
i'd move a minimum of 5 to 8-ft & begin CC/DS there.

how *not* to handle a dog who hates grooming - 
YouTube - ‪Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog‬‏

a fantastic result for a young dog who violently resists any restraint - 
YouTube - ‪CIA Case File: 'Tucker' Nail Trim‬‏

Tucker had many terrible past-experiences, his owners *were told to Alpha-roll & pin him from 8-WO* 
by their vet & several trainers - as a result, he has become incredibly reactive & violent if anyone tries 
to restrain him, let alone *groom* him :nonod: & he's an Airedale, grooming is absolutely imperative. 
the change in him in real-time of approx 10-minutes is amazing - & it's all on his terms. :thumbup:


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## Cassia (May 28, 2011)

Omg that was horrific in that 1st video


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> YouTube - ‪Dog Dominant to Light?‬‏


This video really shows the extent to which CM is sadly lacking in understanding canine behaviour and how expert he really is in clap trap and BS!:frown2: People hero worship this guy? Truly?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

The fact is we are not wolves, or dogs; we do not have the same teeth, paws, speed, or strength that they do. Whatever alpha roll that we do will be very different from the alpha rolls that they do to each other.
In addition, just because it is done by wolves or dogs in the wild does not mean that it is acceptable behavior for a dog living in a house, and it also does not make it humane. 

In the wild my terrier would probably hunt down and kill all of the rats and squirrels that he sees. That does not mean that I will let him do that whilst living with me, am i being cruel deneying him his true nature???

Simple answer no. Simply because he is not a wild animal he is a dog. He is a domestic pet and he lives by my rules. Does he do because he thinks im alpha?? I think not. Think of the generations of dogs that he comes from, how close genetically do people think their dogs are to wolves??? some people seem to think that their dogs were bred from a pack of wolves  Look at your dogs ped papers and tell me exactly where it says, Dam - wild wolf???

So if our dogs are domestic pets and not wild wolves then why is acceptable to use something that wild dogs would use?? Are we then not in some way encouraging the dogs to behave like wild animals??

If you correct you dog with a 'nudge' you are not showing that his behaviour is unacceptable you are showing that humans are unpradictable and not safe. I for one would like my dogs to see me as their protector, their provider and that they feel safe and secure around me, not for them to feel scared around me as i could 'correct' them at any time.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

tashax said:


> Look at your dogs ped papers and tell me exactly where it says, Dam - wild wolf???


Exactly! They may have descended from wolves but that doesn't make them wolves. We share 98% of DNA with chimpanzees but that doesn't make (most of us!) chimps!


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> how *not* to handle a dog who hates grooming -
> YouTube - ‪Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog‬‏ :


Sorry, I just couldn't watch anymore. This person has no idea how to groom a small dog that is reacting.

Firstly putting a large brush in a small dogs face in this way is enough to cause exactly what it did. Poor little mite! I'm not surprised he went ballistic. I certainly don't use a brush like that on my big dog! OMG!!!

Secondly, why the hell would anyone use an open pair of scissors near a dogs head that was reacting like that. It is a wonder the poor dog didn't get them in the eye!  I am horrified!!!!

In case anyone is wondering about my credentials to criticise, I groomed four Maltese to Championship show standard and Crufts for several years and for the rest of their lives with long coats. They were groomed gently with an immense amount of patience. It sometimes took hours. 
I also had a rescued Pom who hated women because she had been ill treated by one but I managed to groom her with a lot of treats and love and she eventually even enjoyed the experience.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Angels_Sin said:


> I can't watch the link as I'm at work, but I really can't understand all the anti CM threads.
> 
> I know a lot of people don't agree with the pack leader and dominance theories, but putting that aside, I've seen a few shows where CM has not only saved dogs from being put down, but also helped dogs over come serious issues. Yes, he does sometimes use flooding, but I also watched a show with him working with an Akita (if I remember rightly) which was so scared it wouldn't even leave it's kennel and he took so much time and care with that dog that it blew me away.
> 
> ...


But who says he has saved the dog from being put down? The narrator of the show, CM himself? It is all about drama.

I agree if he can make thousands and millions of dollars, then fine. What most of us are up in arms about is that he knows zilch about dogs, he gets their body language all wrong, and he doesn't give them confidence, they end up totally shut down from fear.



Angels_Sin said:


> This is kind of my point though, I'm sure every person on here trains their dogs with love, understanding and patience - I mean we all obviously love our dogs to be on this forum in the first place! But just because someone might like to watch The Dog Whisperer, doesn't make them bad owners who bully their dogs, and it's unfair to judge people in that way (not that I'm saying that's what you're doing). Also, to be fair to CM, I don't believe he teaches bullying (at least from what I've seen), but he does agree with boundries for dogs, and so do I, in fact, I think most people do because who wants an out of control dog?!
> 
> I'm just saying that just because someone watches the show, doesn't mean they're alpha rolling their dog or being agressive etc. I've learnt a lot from watching it, such as how important it is to stay calm, and to remember to check myself to make sure I am calm - something I'm sure we all agree on? It's not all "bad" information, thats all.


Natural bullies like him don't even know they are bullies. Yes, we all know he preaches about exercise, but those methods were around long before he came along.



5rivers79 said:


> Only the other day i read a post on here about a one year old GSD that was put down because it bit someone and couldnt be helped..
> 
> imo a one year old pup has still alot to learn and im sure people like CM who rehabilitate dogs would have gone to the furthest of lengths to put such a young dog right..
> 
> ...





5rivers79 said:


> So why is it in this day and age a one year old GSD baby can be put to sleep?


Because there are too many people who never stop to ask why the dog bit someone. I have read people declare on this forum that they wouldn't give a dog a second chance. If one of my dogs bites out of the blue, I want to know why. There has to be a reason.



Angels_Sin said:


> Maybe I'm missing something that you guys who don't like him have seen - but when has he EVER done that?!! Seriously, I've seen a fair few episodes and he always talks about setting the dog up for success!
> 
> Oh and the education thing, that's not a secret, none of his past is, he talks about it openly and says he was educated about dogs by his Grandad and by watching how dogs interact with each other.


He might _talk_ about setting the dog up for success, probably because he's heard it somewhere but doesn't have a clue what it means, but he does just the opposite. I have seen episodes where he has been called to sort out an aggressive dog, and the first thing he does is antagonise it to prove how brave he is. It never enters his head that most aggression is caused by fear.

I have seen clips where he has gone into a perfectly friendly dog, who has put his paws on his knee, and the Dog Abuser has started hitting him round the face. I expect the result of that encounter was a headshy dog who can no longer be trusted with strangers.

I have also seen him hit a dog who is showing very clear calming signals, reading the body language completely wrong.

I have also seen him dragging an 11 month old, still growing giant breed dog up a slippery spiral staircase for no better reason than that the owners want the dog in their bedroom.

There was never a mention from the wonderful man that giant growing dogs should not be climbing stairs, or participating in his "high energy run" which he also did with this delicate, growing, giant breed dog.

He is doing a lot of damage to a lot of dogs whose owners follow everything he does.

I can't watch him anymore - everything he does makes my blood boil.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> Give up then, i'd rather not be lectured by you anyway. I did put that wrong tho, i had a look at the link. But i won't be watching the show with a copy of that in front of me. I thought it was pretty obvious that yawning means tiredness. It may mean something else as well, but surely the primary meaning is tiredness, after eading all the bumpf before getting to that point, i wasn't gonna bother reading the rest of it


Humans usually yawn because they are tired, but sometimes they yawn because they are bored, or sometimes because yawning is contagious and someone else has yawned. I am yawning now, just writing about yawning.

Dogs may yawn because they are tired, but normally it is major calming signal.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

well NORMALLY when my dog has yawned he goes and finds a place to sleep pretty soon after, although i guess the fact that i was sitting on my chair could have really stressed him out as he walked past me


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> well NORMALLY when my dog has yawned he goes and finds a place to sleep pretty soon after, although i guess the fact that i was sitting on my chair could have really stressed him out as he walked past me


Now who's being sarcastic? 

Dogs also yawn when they feel stressed and confused. If you would only open your mind you would find that there is so much to learn about canine communication.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Now who's being sarcastic?
> 
> Dogs also yawn when they feel stressed and confused. If you would only open your mind you would find that there is so much to learn about canine communication.


That's not sarcasm, that's stressing my point, the reason i used caps.

Look i'm not here to either defend or attack CM, to be honest i don't really put much weight in a lot of studies, human or animal based when it comes to pyschological deciphering. I prefer to call it labelling, a naughty kid used to be just that, now the first thing that is spouted is adhd.
M point is if some people like his methods and find they have results with them, what is the problem? If some people don't like them and choose another system, what is wrong with that? NOTHING.

Say i was to watch CM kicking a dog, who would be in the wrong if I then chose to put the boot into my dog because i thought he had success with it? It wouldn't be CM would it, it would be me. We choose what we do, so we are always responsible for our own actions


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Dogs also yawn when they feel stressed [or] confused.


here's a video with obvious stress-signaling - 
YouTube - ‪Dog Park Journey‬‏

this is a dog-owner in BC, Canada, walking his off-leash dog thru town, past the BC-SPCA & beyond... 
he has taught the dog to STOP & wait for him at street-corners, but it must have been a stressful teaching process, 
as the dog throws multiple calming-signals every time they approach an intersection: 
- slow-mo walk 
- multiple exaggerated yawns with tongue curling 
- look-aways 
- slitting his eyes 
- 'smiling' - submissive grin, pulling commissure back; 
- ears drop / flatten
- tail drops...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> [if] i watch CM [kick] a dog, who would be in the wrong if I then chose to put the boot
> into my dog because i thought [Cesar] had success with it? It wouldn't be CM would it, it would be me.
> We choose what we do, so we are always responsible for our own actions.


well, that's a nifty way to eliminate any responsibility whatever for other's actions. 

sorry, when someone portrays themselves as an expert & makes various suggestions or demonstrates their solution 
to a problem, they are IMO held to a higher standard; anyone with the media-weight of an Oprah or Dr Ruth 
carries more heft & therefore must exercise more responsibility - they can't afford to make dangerous suggestions 
or spread false 'facts', as they'll be lambasted in the press later, if anything injurious happens or true facts 
are produced, later, which conflict with their statements.

*no disclaimer* will keep people from imitating something which is portrayed as safe, 
correct & successful - even if it's none of the above.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Sorry i don't subscribe to blaming the media for influencing me to do bad things. I don't binge drink because i watch men behaving badly, i do it because i'm a part time alky.

You can criticize CM as much as you like, but other's shouldn't be made to feel bad if they find some use in his methods.

Who mentioned disclaimers? Not me. If someone is stupid enough to believe kicking their dog is a viable training technique, they are gonna be too stupid to take any notice of a disclaimer aren't they? And also maybe they wasn't suitable in the first place to be a pet owner, now that isn't CM's fault is it? On that level there should be some framework put into pet ownership. Anytime we take a pet, we are basically adopting it, and it will rely on you, but we rarely have any thorough checks made into us. If we were adopting a child the process would be long.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

sheriffjonny said:


> Sorry i don't subscribe to blaming the media for influencing me to do bad things. I don't binge drink because i watch men behaving badly, i do it because i'm a part time alky.
> 
> You can criticize CM as much as you like, but other's shouldn't be made to feel bad if they find some use in his methods.
> 
> Who mentioned disclaimers? Not me. If someone is stupid enough to believe kicking their dog is a viable training technique, they are gonna be too stupid to take any notice of a disclaimer aren't they? And also maybe they wasn't suitable in the first place to be a pet owner, now that isn't CM's fault is it? On that level there should be some framework put into pet ownership. Anytime we take a pet, we are basically adopting it, and it will rely on you, but we rarely have any thorough checks made into us. If we were adopting a child the process would be long.


Careful sheriffjonny you are riling the gang of 5 and unleashing the beast. If you don't agree with them you'll be attacked constantly, using their bullying tactics. (i bet your feeling it now) Subversivley they'll be working to get you banned for not agreeing with them. In the end they'll hope you'll give up and leave, like numerous others. 
On this forum your only allowed free speech if you agree with the gang of 5. They'll be working to get all conversations about CM banned. In this country we have the right to free speech, rightly or wrongly. But not in their eyes. If they don't agree with it, it should be banned. Take my advice suck up to them and you'll be allowed back on the playground.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Im sorry but are you 10 years old?? Im an adult and i know for a fact that none of my posts have been bullying or intimidating in anyway. TBH when you say things like that the only words that spring to mind are grow up for god's sake.


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

i like cesear milan and so do millions of people around the world, he is watched all over. Each episode he deals with a dog which has a issue and the owners were going to get rid of or destroy, at the end of each episode the dogs and owners are BOTH Happy. Do u honestly think people would stand by and watch him be cruel as u say to there dogs and not interven???

Surely his help is better than a dog being placed in kennels and unable to rehome or even destroyed???

I no all u milan haters will jump on this post and try and change my opinion but i wont and i would never expect to change your opinion.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

tashax said:


> Im sorry but are you 10 years old?? Im an adult and i know for a fact that none of my posts have been bullying or intimidating in anyway. TBH when you say things like that the only words that spring to mind are grow up for god's sake.


I'm sorry to say this but your wrong.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I've been a member of this forum for a few weeks, and obviously, this is my first post, but I've been following this thread from the beginning and I must say that, from an outsider's point of view I'm not sure I'll be posting again. Nobody deserves to be slated for watching certain shows on TV, and yet, from following this thread, it comes across to me as that is exactly what some people are doing (naming no names).



> Here to help you sheriffjonny, should you choose to watch a few episodes with the sound off, is a list of signals that dogs use and the meaning behind them based on many years of observation by Turid Rugaas. Calming Signals Maybe print it out and have it to hand when you watch it?


I did.. Maybe it was just those 2 shows that I watched but in them, none of the dogs that I watched showed what I might have called stress signals but I'm no expert. One dog was excited by people with a ball. CM waited until the dog calmed down and gave him eye contact before throwing the ball. He didn't kick that dog either (fairly difficult thing to do, considering the dog was offlead ), and the dog was still bouncy and looked happy to me by the time the ball was thrown. A Golden Retriever seemed happy and relaxed to follow him. An obese chihuaha Nacho who guarded his toy and hid under the bed when his owner presented the lead was shown in the video shot in the final 5mins of the show to be happily playing with his young owner, and was going for daily walks, obviously resulting in the dog losing weight.



> Think of the generations of dogs that he comes from, how close genetically do people think their dogs are to wolves??? some people seem to think that their dogs were bred from a pack of wolves Look at your dogs ped papers and tell me exactly where it says, Dam - wild wolf???


Actually, one of the shows I watched with the sound muted WAS about 2 wolf-dog hybrids. One, Vadar (?), was in preditary mode when it came to other dogs, the other was food aggressive. He's also done a whole show regarding wolf-dog hybrids, accompanying someone who apparently spent a lot of time researching wolves.



> CM/DW praises the owner; in all the episodes i watched from #1 of season #1 thru August of 2009,
> i never once heard him praise a dog for good behavior, or offer a game, treat, etc - as a reward.




I'm not defending or attacking CM, but I have seen a few shows of him using play and treat rewards as well as more coersive methods.



> 'dogs need exercise.' Duh. 'dogs need boundaries.' Duh! This is news?...


Yes, he preaches exercise first, which you'd think goes without saying, but having watched many DW episodes myself, there's so many times he asks his clients "how often do you take him/her for walks" and they reply "I can't walk him/her as often as I like because I work all day and I'm too tired/the dog's too difficult for me to walk him/her" so he asks again and they reply "once/ twice/three times a WEEK". Frankly, my dogs would be bouncing off the walls if I only walked them once or twice a week, but obviously to these clients, the message wasn't getting through.

Tbh, threads like this are very similar to threads about religion - there are always going to be people who watch CM and think he's the 2nd coming of Jesus when it comes to dogs, and there's going to be those who think he's the devil reincarnate. And then, there are others, like myself, who are right in the middle and can see some credit to SOME of his methods, while not agreeing with others.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Tbh, threads like this are very similar to threads about religion - there are always going to be people who watch CM and think he's the 2nd coming of Jesus when it comes to dogs, and there's going to be those who think he's the devil reincarnate. And then, there are others, like myself, who are right in the middle and can see some credit to SOME of his methods, while not agreeing with others.


I was thinking exactly this about a similar thread, tbh after a few things i've now found out, it has become known to me that all is not fair and equal on this forum


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

I think it boils down to he got famous so lets bring him down! 

I dont use CM's methods but stuff like waiting for your dog to relax before taking him for a walk has really calmed Sammy down and stopped the pulling on his lead while on the street.

CM :thumbup:
VS :thumbup: (although a little dull)
Zak :thumbup: (for never getting to the point)


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> I dont use CM's methods but stuff like waiting for your dog to relax before taking him for a walk has really calmed Sammy down and stopped the pulling on his lead while on the street.
> 
> CM :thumbup:
> VS :thumbup: (although a little dull)
> Zak :thumbup: (for never getting to the point)


*I think it boils down to he got famous so lets bring him down! *

Oh it's more than that.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

grandad said:


> *I think it boils down to he got famous so lets bring him down! *
> 
> Oh it's more than that.


Just because some of us like a particular show on tv surely it doesnt mean we do those exact methods..and even if we do employ some of those tips its for the benefit of our pets.

I dont think all of us will try handling our dogs like CM...plainly because we dont want to and other things work instead (positive reinforcement).

But to crucify someone who has saved alot of dogs from death row is not justified. I dont need to turn the sound off when watching a programme..what i want to know is did that method of training save that particular dog's life?

Iv only ever watched one show of VS and found it boring..but i wont judge her on that..does she even deal with very aggressive dogs? Does this Zak dude (and he clearly makes himself out to be a "dude" or is it "douche") deal with dogs that are potentially going to be put down?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Just because some of us like a particular show on tv surely it doesnt mean we do those exact methods..and even if we do employ some of those tips its for the benefit of our pets.
> 
> I dont think all of us will try handling our dogs like CM...plainly because we dont want to and other things work instead (positive reinforcement).
> 
> ...


Yes, she does. I have seen her deal with very aggressive dogs but what she does not do is antagonise them, get herself bitten, and bully the dog into learned helplessness. No drama means it fades in people's memories.

Although I detest CM's methods, it is his total lack of knowledge that makes so many people angry. He does not know dog body language, he thinks everything is domination. If a dog is not behaving he never bothers to find out why, even if he could, he decides he is being dominant.

It does not take a lot of effort to learn about dogs and increase one's knowledge, but he doesn't do that because he thinks he already knows it all.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Could you point me towards some videos of VS handling aggressive dogs as tbh iv not watched more than one show.

As a newbie i wont comment on what CM knows or doesnt know about dog body language but from every show iv seen..it seems he talks to the owner first to see why the dog is behaving in such a way..whether its fear or not and then addressing the problem.

Also to say he doesnt treat the dogs is a little unfair as i have seen on countless show CM giving some kind of reward..be it food, a toy or affection.

One episode i saw he took the little dog with him and worked with him for months..keeping the dog with him at all times..even in hotels etc the guy was genuinely upset when the owners came to take the rehabilitated dog back..guy was almost in tears.

I honestly believe the guy really does care about the dogs he rehabs.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I dont think VS is perfect but her methods work without her having to bully or imtimedate the dog which in my mind says that she knows what she is doing.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Actually, one of the shows I watched with the sound muted WAS about 2 wolf-dog hybrids. One, Vadar (?), was in preditary mode when it came to other dogs, the other was food aggressive. He's also done a whole show regarding wolf-dog hybrids, accompanying someone who apparently spent a lot of time researching wolves.


Yes there maybe wolf hybrids that are closely related to wolves obvs but the other dogs he 'helps' arent.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Could you point me towards some videos of VS handling aggressive dogs as tbh iv not watched more than one show.
> 
> As a newbie i wont comment on what CM knows or doesnt know about dog body language but from every show iv seen..it seems he talks to the owner first to see why the dog is behaving in such a way..whether its fear or not and then addressing the problem.
> 
> ...


If you search You Tube for VS I am sure you will come across some videos of her shows. I have seen all her shows myself, and she did get bitten only once, but luckily had her boots on. She did nothing on that occasion except stand in the doorway of the bedroom that the dog was so protective about. That particular dog kept attacking the guy's roomate every time he walked past the door. She managed to teach him that the roomate was allowed to walk past the door and even enter the room.

I used to be a huge fan of Cesar Millan, believe it or not. I have seen in his earlier shows him talking a lot of sense and many years ago I saw him use a shock collar on a farm dog who kept chasing tractor wheels. It was the first time I had seen him use one and at the time he stated that he would only use one as a last resort.

That has changed dramatically. Now he uses them at every opportunity. I think he has become too big for his boots, so to speak, and believes he can do no wrong.

It takes more than an hour show to rehabilitate a dog. Usually at the end of the show we see a dog who is completely shut down, and he is standing there pleased with himself, telling the owners the dog is now "calm submissive". It is obvious to everyone here that the dog is terrified.

Instead of learning more and building on a reputation to educate the dog owners of the world, he is going downhill to make himself look important.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

tashax said:


> Yes there maybe wolf hybrids that are closely related to wolves obvs but the other dogs he 'helps' arent.


Fair enough, but I was referring to the quoted text above that statement in which someone challenged the reader to look at ped papers and look for the term "Dam - wild wolf".


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I used to be a huge fan of Cesar Millan, believe it or not. I have seen in his earlier shows him talking a lot of sense and many years ago I saw him use a shock collar on a farm dog who kept chasing tractor wheels. It was the first time I had seen him use one and at the time he stated that he would only use one as a last resort.
> 
> That has changed dramatically. Now he uses them at every opportunity. I think he has become too big for his boots, so to speak, and believes he can do no wrong.
> 
> ...


I also used to be a huge fan of CM and i also watched the episode with the farm dog chasing tractors, that is when my opinion of him changed. No self respecting, positive reinforcing trainer would use a shock collar. I have a friend (my only true friend) and she is all pro alpha/dominant training. We are best friends and i would never fall out with her but i will not be around her when she trains her dogs, it breaks my heart seeing them lying on the floor like that.

My point is everyone has a right to choose how they will and will not train their dog, i for one will not be swayed into thinking that alpha/dominant or flood traing works


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Fair enough, but I was referring to the quoted text above that statement in which someone challenged the reader to look at ped papers and look for the term "Dam - wild wolf".


And yes their are exceptions, but if you have a wolf hybrid, that you want to be a pet why would you treat it like a wild animal, if you dont want it to act like one??


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tashax said:


> I also used to be a huge fan of CM and i also watched the episode with the farm dog chasing tractors, that is when my opinion of him changed. No self respecting, positive reinforcing trainer would use a shock collar. I have a friend (my only true friend) and she is all pro alpha/dominant training. We are best friends and i would never fall out with her but i will not be around her when she trains her dogs, it breaks my heart seeing them lying on the floor like that.
> 
> My point is everyone has a right to choose how they will and will not train their dog, i for one will not be swayed into thinking that alpha/dominant or flood traing works


Did you see the episode with the newfie who would not eat? Now I was quite impressed with the way he handled that, as the people were cooking the dog burgers and taking them to him wherever he happened to be in the house! He never went for walks because he didn't like walking. They had tried once or twice and he had just laid down. Don't all newfies do that? Mine did! He also made a great fuss of the dog.

But he was only just establishing his name back then; nowadays he is a bully, pure and simple, and watching him just puts my blood pressure up!


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I did see that episode  i loved the way he handled the newfie


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> Nobody deserves to be slated for watching certain shows on TV, & yet, from following this thread,
> it comes across to me as that is exactly what some people are doing (naming no names).


no one that i've read here said _*'Do Not Watch The Dawg-Wrassler' - *_ i tell people to watch, 
& then *not imitate what they see done on screen - * unless they can confirm it, from a reputable source.

that eliminates all instances of *pin the dog, confront, intimidate, loom-over, flood, poke necks, 'tap' flanks*, etc, 
immediately, since no reputable sources [vet-behaviorists, credentialed behaviorists - CAAB, etc - or well-known 
trainers who practice humane-training: Miller, Geller, Dunbar, McConnell, Ramirez, Donaldson, etc] will suggest them.

watch the program? *sure! *  Mimic the tools & techniques, as shown? *bad idea.* 


LinznMilly said:


> ...others, like myself, ...are right in the middle & can see some credit to SOME of his methods, while not agreeing with others.


90% of the time, it is not what is *said* that is the worry - it's what is _*done*_ that raises concern.

much of what is said that's true is 'inherited wisdom', around for centuries if not millennia.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Nobody should be 'slating' folks because they like watching CM. What we do challenge is the blind belief some have in him and his rather dubious 'knowledge'! :mad2: He is not an expert by any means - you don't have to be to get the media interested in you! You have to have a gimmick, look a certain way and have a good PR company to push you forward to them.  Then you have to compromise and accept the way the TV protrays you, such as VS has had to. Think she chooses to be portrayed as some sort of dominatrix? No of course she doesn't but if she wants to get her message across on TV then she has to endure the opening scenes making her look 'strict' etc. She had a 'look' the TV wanted. I know of many really good trainers and behaviourists who sadly just do not have the gimmick factor that it takes to get on tv! Yet they could knock the spots off CM and VS! But then, not everyone wants fame and fortune - most just like to help people and help dogs without all the hype.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

95% of what CM advises is very old-hat and can be downright dangerous. It "works" in the same way that slapping a child "works", but that doesn't mean it is our best option.

A very clear understanding of canine communication makes it almost impossible to watch his show without becoming frustrated. I watched a programme once where he claimed that the dog was 'happy' and 'relaxed' walking down the street, based on the fact that his tail was wagging, all the while giving out hoards of calming signals and even some distance-increasing signals to a dog in the distance.

Canine communication is very subtle to us humans, and if people don't want to believe that a lick of the lips, a whale eye or yawn can indicate growing stress and anxiety in a dog (it doesn't always have to), they are missing out hugely on integral ways in which dogs communicate to us and other animals. Just look at dogs attacking or biting- there is always an escalation, there are always signs, yet people don't give them any heed.

What this boils down to is a dog on CM's show that shows these signs but is not heard (by CM, the owners or viewers). People say "well, that dog is relaxed now because he isn't doing the bad behaviour any more", without actually understanding why and what the dog is now feeling and trying to communicate. Sleigman formed the concept of 'learned helplessness' in 1965, when he noticed that, when dogs were shocked to a certain extent, they were incapable of learning and thinking straight and went into shut down- so much so that they wouldn't even take the available escape route. This is what CM's methods are based on when working with aggressive dogs- holding and pinning them until they shut down and can't do anything else.

He may help difficult cases, cases which in many instances other professionals would put the dog down, but not all his cases are life and death. There are thousands of people around the world who help similar dogs, so he is nothing unique, it just so happens he has a TV show. He has some good advice, but it is also nothing unique and I find the bad immediately out-weighs the good.

About the training and behaviour distinction people like to build up so much. I find this really quite difficult to understand in many instances. For anyone who actually works with dogs with behaviour problems, they'll realise that to change behaviour problems we have to _*train*_ new, more acceptable behaviours. This often means using very similar methods training a puppy. How to help a dog with handling issues (it snaps, growls, bites) and how to help with a mouthing pup? _Counter-condition them to handling_.

How to help a dog with dog aggression, and how to socialise your pup well? _Use motivators and build an association between dogs and good experiences- good old classical/counter conditioning there. _

On the surface, CM's methods look like they "work" and dogs are "fixed" but it is sadly not always the case. What I don't agree with mostly is the fact that the force-based punishments are constant. I saw him Alpha roll Junior recently too, because Junior was insecure around other dogs and had a snark at one that came too close. Now, by Cesar's methods and philosophies, Junior shouldn't do that because Cesar is the pack leader (oh please) but yet, he still needs to deliver his positive punishments to his own dog. In fact, Junior seems quite insecure in a number of ways. I'd love to spend a day with that dog, to see how CM methods have affected him (the good and the bad). That's surely the ultimate test?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> I think it boils down to he got famous so lets bring him down!


:huh: is that it, then?

why does no one have petitions going round to get 
Tamar Geller 
Ian Dunbar 
Trish McConnell 
Andrea Arden 
Victoria Stilwell 
or Steve Dale...

off the TV or off the radio? :blink:

McConnell's had a radio-show for donkey's years, as has Steve Dale - McConnell had a TV-show on Animal Planet 
early on, but now it's all blood, gore & scary-movies, they wouldn't want intelligent, thoughtful training; it doesn't go 
with their new, NON-kid-friendly image. :thumbdown:

Andrea Arden has been on several long-running TV-shows, including UnderDog to WonderDog as trainer.

Tamar Geller fixed the long-standing problem with Oprah's Goldens that CM/DW methods did not: jumping up. 
VIDEO 
Oprah Teaches Her Dogs Not to Jump - Video - Oprah.com

Text: multiple pages beginning here - 
Treating and Training Dogs with Love - Oprah.com

let it be noted that i don't think O is a role-model for responsible dog-ownership; getting THREE pups, 
& *siblings* to boot!, at one time is simply greed, & very foolish - but that's why she has staff. 

hundreds of USA-trainers or behaviorists give seminars around the world - nobody petitions to shut down 
*Susan Garrett 
Emily Larlham* [AKA KikoPup on UTube] 
*Bob Bailey 
Terry Ryan 
Jean Donaldson 
Trish King 
Susan Friedman 
Sophia Yin 
Karen Overall 
Suzanne Hetts 
Daniel Estep...*

yet within their disciplines, they are global names - & very widely-respected, not just name-recognition. 
Paris Hilton has name-recognition, but she's not a globally-recognized authority, according to her peers.

the Dog-Whisperer TV-show has *pet-owners*, not trainers or behaviorists, as their fan base. 
CAABs or CABCs don't tune in for tips; recognition by one's peers is a pretty good measure of validity. 
Garrett thru Estep have it. That's a big difference.

doesn't it seem odd that the AHA, AVSAB, Welfare in Dog-Training, Brit Small Animal Vets Assoc, et al, 
*warn against* these tools & methods? How unanimous must objections be, to get Ur notice? 
the ASPCA is the oldest animal-welfare organization in the USA; they're also on record opposing such methods. 

Italy banned the show from their TV-system; so did one of the Nordic countries; Portugal has a petition running. 
there's been considerable anger in Australia over the show's arrival on their channels.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes but why the long debates?? No one on here has said they use CM's methods step by step?? 

His show even states not to use the methods shown but instead consult a professional in your area.

People pick and choose methods that work best with their own pets even if that means using a little bit from CM, VS, Zak or whoever's class that they attend. Dogs are like people not all will learn in the same way..some take longer but some can grasp the training quicker.

We can bash anyone's methods but to the person who is successfully using that particular method it is the best way for them and their pet.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> there's been considerable anger in Australia over the show's arrival on their channels.


Did he not just have a successful tour of Australia?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Yes but why the long debates?? No one on here has said they use CM's methods step by step??
> 
> His show even states not to use the methods shown but instead consult a professional in your area.
> 
> ...


But many people do just that - copy his methods precisely. Some even watch every episodes, have the whole collection, then go out calling themselves a dog trainer! And talking like a recording of every word he says.

And they know no more about dogs or their body language than he does.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But many people do just that - copy his methods precisely. Some even watch every episodes, have the whole collection, then go out calling themselves a dog trainer! And talking like a recording of every word he says.
> 
> And they know no more about dogs or their body language than he does.


Which so called trainers do that? Maybe there should be a list to avoid? Im sure no one on here has said they watch every show so have become dog trainers? I watch it when im at home an nothing else is on..nothing wrong with that..is there?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Yes but why the long debates?? No one on here has said they use CM's methods step by step??
> 
> His show even states not to use the methods shown but instead consult a professional in your area.
> 
> ...


'Success' is relative though, surely? We could jab a dog in the neck and it may stop barking at the mailman when we are around, but do it when we are away or we could successfully counter-condition the dog to the mailman coming and going, so that the dog's behaviour is permanently changed (after a good counter-conditioning programme and routine).

Modern methods also have scope for people to try numerous different ways. Positive reward methods are not 2 dimensional, there's many ways of carrying them out.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Which so called trainers do that? Maybe there should be a list to avoid? Im sure no one on here has said they watch every show so have become dog trainers? I watch it when im at home an nothing else is on..nothing wrong with that..is there?


Nope nothing wrong at all with how you spend your spare time


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

tashax said:


> Nope nothing wrong at all with how you spend your spare time


Nope there isnt..most of my spare time is spent on samson rather than bashing someones techniques that i watch on tv occasionally.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Yes but why the long debates?? No one on here has said they use CM's methods step by step??
> 
> His show even states not to use the methods shown but instead consult a professional in your area.
> 
> ...


I have already said that people have a right to choose how and which way to train their dogs, i know people that use a bit of both ways but not to the extreme of alpha rolls but they do correct using voice to interupt bad behaviour. I think this is one of those times where we agree........to disagree


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Nope there isnt..most of my spare time is spent on samson rather than bashing someones techniques that i watch on tv occasionally.


Wooooah we dont have to get all sarcastic i was actually being sincere when i said that


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Which so called trainers do that? Maybe there should be a list to avoid? Im sure no one on here has said they watch every show so have become dog trainers? I watch it when im at home an nothing else is on..nothing wrong with that..is there?


I couldn't care less what you watch. I know someone locally whose only claim to being a dog trainer is watching CM. She copies him precisely, even tells you same sort of garbage about dogs pinning each other down in the wild. She isn't on any list; one doesn't have to be to called oneself a dog trainer. People like her think that watching the programme is the same as doing a proper course from a proper establishment.

When I had Ferdie as a puppy I was sick to death of people giving me advice they had learned of the tv show, all of it rubbish. You have to be his pack leader and all that rubbish. It never occurred to them that I might have had dogs before and might just know what I am doing.

So word gets around and this is what you do. And that is dangerous to the new and inexperienced dog owning public and to the poor dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> He may help difficult cases, cases which in many instances other professionals would put the dog down,
> but *not all his cases are life [or] death*.


i'd say in 5-years, watching every episode as it was broadcast, over 90% of the dogs shown were in no danger whatever, 
of being euthanized - most had plain-Joe garden-variety problems, nothing outre' or bizarre about them, 
& no-one was going to *kill the dog*.

- Chi who bites visitors & housemate 
- Viszla afraid of strangers; RG 
- Beagle bit the postie 
- Dane afraid of slick-surfaces *after an accident that left him unconscious* 
- Bichon fearful of grooming 
- Emmenthaler obsessed with reflection & glare [taught by the owners!] 
- Saint afraid of spiral-staircase 
- Dal-puppy who *takes food left out*  shocking! 
and so on.

many of the high-profile cases continued to have problems, & the dogs were surrendered to a rescue or re-homed. 
Patti LaBelle's Boerbel, Shadow the Malamute-mix, & JonBee the Jindo among them.

LaBelle's Boerbel was adopted , but after a year there were no further updates on his status or behavior.

Shadow now lives in a multi-dog home with a breed-savvy family; their other dogs are rescues, also. 
he goes to a local dog-park regularly & plays with other dogs of all sizes, breeds & genders, intact & desexed.

JonBee was adopted, but i have not seen any update whatever on his later life.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...*thousands of people around the world ...help similar dogs*, so he is nothing unique, it just so happens
> he has a TV show. He has some good advice, but it's also nothing unique & I find the bad immediately out-weighs the good.


my colleague Barbara Davis - 
BADDogsInc Family Dog Training and Behavior

another friend & colleague, Beverly Hebert - 
http://tinyurl.com/6latxsj

about her aggro re-training guide: 


> _ ...I was still looking for a handy reliable road map to help me guide my clients through our training journey together.
> 
> My solution began with a critical review/evaluation of all of my reference materials including my correspondence with other trainers.
> 
> ...


Bev's BONUS handout - 


> Hollys Den
> _Fostering Peaceful Packs for Humans & Dogs_
> 
> Give Your Dog A Chill Pill
> ...


** treats * as ever, can be anything the dog will work for: toy, game, food, etc.

the guide-bonus is plain-old Counter-Conditioning circa 1930: classically associate good things with a trigger. 
no prongs, chokes or any other aversives; no danger of re-directed aggro or barrier frustration, working UNDER 
threshold. *B-mod is not a secret; neither is training - anybody who is reasonably co-ordinated & can read, 
can do this; U don't have to inherit a 'gift' or be sprinkled with fairy-dust at birth.*

a small-time local trainer - 
http://tinyurl.com/5stet62

note her credentials - 


> _ Certified by the Association of Companion Animal Behavior Counselors
> 
> Certified by the Animal Behavior Center of New York
> 
> Professional Member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers _


more on the ACABC - 
The Association of Companion Animal Behavior Counselors - Who We Are



> *bold added - *
> 
> ...an international, non-profit professional membership organization whose mission is to *promote scientific education*
> in the field of applied companion animal behavior, to encourage the use of *humane and non-aversive methods
> ...


particularly note the ethics & standards. 
Animal Behavior Counselors Dog, Canine, Feline, Cat Behavior Specialists Code of Standards and Ethics


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

tashax said:


> Wooooah we dont have to get all sarcastic i was actually being sincere when i said that


When was i bein sarcy to u? I meant the original video was bashing his techniques.


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

well seeing as it was me you quoted when you posted your last reply then its a bit obvious that im going to think it is aimed at me


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> [the] show even states not to use the methods shown but instead consult a professional in your area.


the legal-Beagles of National-Geo were responsible for that - especially as they were forewarned by the many replies 
to their pre-broadcast trainer, warning of the high likelihood of serious behavioral fallout &/or injury to both 
humans & canines, if these methods were imitated as shown by dog-owners with their own or others' dogs.

avoiding _liability_ is what retainers buy - lawyers are paid to keep the business safe. 
it is not for the CONSUMER that they put warning-labels about using hair-dryers in the bath-tub; it's for the makers.

positive reinforcement is safe for the human & the nonhuman. 
i've taught kids as young as 8-YO to train their own dogs, in a small group class.

_"reward-based training - :thumbup: You *can* do this at home!"_


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Listen ladies/gentlemen iv probably been on this forum less than two weeks and this is umpteenth thread on CM is bad this CM is bad that..obviously your gonna get responses..it is a forum after all...

If you dont want people talking about him on here then dont start threads regarding him. You yourself are hyping him up to casual people who may just be browsing what these threads have to offer for information.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Listen ladies/gentlemen iv probably been on this forum less than two weeks and this is umpteenth thread on CM is bad this CM is bad that..obviously your gonna get responses..it is a forum after all...
> 
> If you dont want people talking about him on here then dont start threads regarding him. You yourself are hyping him up to casual people who may just be browsing what these threads have to offer for information.


Who said they don't want people talking about him? As you say, it is a forum and people are welcome to air their views, and they should expect responses as well.


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Who said they don't want people talking about him? As you say, it is a forum and people are welcome to air their views, and they should expect responses as well.


:thumbup1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> If you dont want people talking about him on here then dont start threads regarding him.
> You [discuss him at length, &] casual people... may just [browse] what these threads have to offer for information.


_*Good!*_ :thumbup: that's the point: to educate - not simply argue. :yesnod:

if we never mention the potential fallout of chaining dogs in yards, skipping socialization, & so on, 
how can we warn dog-owning novices about the pit beneath their feet?... There are critical periods, which once gone 
are impossible to replicate; there are lifelong concerns for safety, or behavioral side-effects. 
not all tools and all methods are equally safe, humane & reliable - just as not all leashes or collars are.

teaching a dog to SIT to greet any human is a very, very safe choice; they cannot jump-up, knock down, 
or assault someone if their butt's on the ground. Making safe choices is better, especially for novices.

truly dog-savvy folks are unlikely to fall for a convincing line of patter from a TV-infomercial about 'TRUE-BRUTE collars' 
or some such stuff, but novices often do - to their later regret. Warning about extendable leads or harsh-handling 
is in precisely the same vein. Unintended outcomes are common.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> _*Good!*_ :thumbup: that's the point: to educate - not simply argue. :yesnod:
> 
> if we never mention the potential fallout of chaining dogs in yards, skipping socialization, & so on,
> how can we warn dog-owning novices about the pit beneath their feet?... There are critical periods, which once gone
> ...


However whats the point of these discussions when it divides views and leads to a select community on these forums segregating themselves because they dont agree with other's views or dont want debate in their discussions?

Is this form of segregation constructive because these forum members only wish to discuss +r training within their select group in which others cant add comment or discuss along side them?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ... whats the point of these discussions when it divides views and leads to a select community
> on these forums *segregating themselves because they don't agree with other's* views or *don't want debate* in their discussions?


please note how long i've been on PF-uk - there's been plenty of 'debate'.

the sub-group was set up to avoid a specific TOOL & the promoters thereof, who swamped threads in rhetoric, 
not engaging in constructive discussion - there is a difference between debate & drown. :nono: 
discussion of said tool has since been banished by the mods & Admin. 


5rivers79 said:


> [do these] forum members only wish to discuss +r training within their select group in which others
> can't add comment or discuss alongside them?


we are having a civil discussion right now - are we not?

are U being prevented from expressing Ur full opinion? 
are U censored? have i made nasty personal remarks? 
were U intimidated or threatened?

if so, it wasn't by me - & i have not noticed any such, on this thread - yet.


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

When talking about training the average dog, of course I agree that positive reinforcement is the way with training.

However.

My dog was a very extreme case, and as hard as it may be to believe, positive reinforcement was simply not an option. My dog is still alive now. If I'd have asked Victoria Stilwell to help me, as much as I love her and her methods, I know she would have told me to put him to sleep. Her methods, at the time, just would not have worked for him. She has had dogs put down for much less than he's done.

The "red zone" as Cesar calls it, I am all too familiar with. The dogs I've seen on Cesar's show are nowhere near as bad as my dog used to be. At his worst, he would slip into it in a blink, over the smallest of things. His coping levels were non-existant and his answer to everything was to attack. A bird flying overhead could send him into a blind rage.

He was completely out of his head. Overreactive and unresponsive to anything. I was the only person he trusted (due to the fact I'd cared for him in kennels and had reached him before he'd got into that state of mind) and it took me a long, long time to get him to give me eye contact.

Now that he's calmed down and no longer flies off the handle when he's exposed to things he considered to be stressful, I'm able to use positive reinforcement to help him, and I do so with pleasure. But back then, _no way _could I have distracted him long enough to offer treats, and he wouldn't have accepted them anyway. When he was in that mindframe, he didn't want toys, he didn't want petting, and praising him when he'd stopped the behaviour to tell him he was doing the desired behaviour just made him even worse.

Clicker training was fine in the house or when we were alone, but put something else in the mix, a dog in the distance, a bird, a car, whatever, it all went out of the window.

The only thing for him was a firm hand. (Something I never used to be capable of or comfortable with.) Patience and understanding, which at times believe me was extremely difficult, and restraining him during his freakouts. That was all I could do. In his first year with me he broke through _seven _headcollars while in the 'red zone'. One time before I adopted him he broke clean through his muzzle, broke the plastic basket clean in half.

Cesar's show helped me a lot, just to inspire me to believe that he could be rehabilitated. If I'd have watched Victoria's show back then, I would have probably despaired that he was a hopeless case. (I'd still have kept trying though, lol, there was no way I was giving up on him after all we'd been through. (I'm as stubborn and pigheaded as he is.))

Because of the impossible time my dog and I had, I try to keep an open mind. I can't help but think people with normal dogs are far too quick to judge. I used to be the same, I would have been horrified at the very notion of anything other than cure-them-with-kindness kind of handling. My boy is still not a trustworthy dog and I still have to be very careful when and where I walk him so as not to endanger anybody. But he's a very happy (and lucky and much-loved) boy. 

I do recommend that if anybody has a dog with severe issues like my boy, they should read a book called "Stress in dogs" by... two German people whose names I can't remember at the moment... It's a great eye-opener and certainly helped set my mind straight.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> the sub-group was set up to avoid a specific TOOL & the promoters thereof, who swamped threads in rhetoric,
> not engaging in constructive discussion - there is a difference between debate & drown. :nono:
> discussion of said tool has since been banished by the mods & Admin.


The ban came down from a Mod who is in your little group did it not?


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

And also in your group you say that people who disagree with you are trolls who have a strategy? PPPUUUURRRRLLLEEEEAAASSSSEE do me a favour!!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> When talking about training the average dog, of course I agree that positive reinforcement is the way with training.
> 
> However.
> 
> ...


Positive reinforcement methods can and do help with the most severe cases. It doesn't matter how bad a dog is, they are still an organism with a brain, and thus capable of learning through positive reinforcement based training. The whole point is the work on problems when they aren't happening, so as to prevent them happening, not wait till it happens then give dogs a firm hand when they are aggressing etc.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> The ban came down from a Mod who is in your little group, did it not?


since when can ONE mod make a decision to ban an item from discussion? 
the decision came from the Admin, *and* the mods. Go ask Admin - there's a direct-contact address, feel free. 
or just post a query on _Forum Help & Suggestions._

BIRD is not a member. Tashi was invited by the group-owner, Rob, & has only been on a few days. 
she hasn't been kowtowed to - if anything, she was greeted with more of a kick than a kiss.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> BIRD is not a member. Tashi was invited by the group-owner, Rob, & has only been on a few days.
> she hasn't been kowtowed to - if anything, she was greeted with more of a kick than a kiss.


Forgive me i thought i had seen BIRD in your members list. Very interesting tho reading through some of the stuff on your group. You hurrah when discussion of ecollars was banned but when asked to curb your chat about your own favourable subjects, you refused and spouted about free speech etc. Double standards maybe?


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> Positive reinforcement methods can and do help with the most severe cases. It doesn't matter how bad a dog is, they are still an organism with a brain, and thus capable of learning through positive reinforcement based training. The whole point is the work on problems when they aren't happening, so as to prevent them happening, not wait till it happens then give dogs a firm hand when they are aggressing etc.


I absolutely agree, in most cases. Honestly, I do.

But I didn't wait for anything to happen that would set him off and use a firm hand. I'm not heartless. I care massively about this dog. That's my whole point. It was my only option. He literally couldn't go anywhere without something setting him off. The smallest, tiniest, completely unavoidable things.

Please don't judge me for the way I handled him. I am being completely honest and open here. You were not in my shoes. I was never, ever cruel to him.

...I must sound awful.

You guys don't know me all that well, but I'm a really gentle person, massive animal lover, would never hurt anybody. I'd just like to clarify that when I say "firm hand" I don't mean that I was hitting him or hurting him or anything of the sort. I just had to train myself to be tough.

Just so you know. I'm certainly not condoning people using cruel devices or "corrections". I'm merely saying that when a dog is in 'the red zone', nothing gets through.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> When talking about training the average dog, of course I agree that positive reinforcement is the way with training.
> 
> However.
> 
> ...


Might I ask what you did to restrain him? It is not an argumentative question, honestly, and whilst I can see where you have done a fine job with this poor dog, and I agree that some dogs may need a lot more firmness because of their problems, did you pin him down? Alpha roll him? Knee or kick him in the side? I very much doubt it, or you would have made the dog worse.

All I am saying here is that CM very often _talks_ sense, but his methods contradict what he says.



sheriffjonny said:


> Forgive me i thought i had seen BIRD in your members list. Very interesting tho reading through some of the stuff on your group. You hurrah when discussion of ecollars was banned but when asked to curb your chat about your own favourable subjects, you refused and spouted about free speech etc. Double standards maybe?


It has nothing whatever to do with free speech or people's opinions. The reason we wanted a ban on the subject and why Rob started the group, was because these people were jumping into every innocent thread, pushing their wares. New members would come on for advice on a very simple problem, and there they would be, turning the whole thread into an argument, which I firmly believe was done on purpose.

Even without the advertising for their products, there are many who start threads simply to cause an argument.

No one is called a troll simply for disagreeing; that is a bizarre suggestion. But when they post with no useful advice or information, simply to cause a row, then yes, they are trolls.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

why has the discussion on them been banned then? and then the post that said about the banning was closed within a few posts, they are not illegal here so i don't understand.

If this forum was purely a positive training forum i could understand, but it is not, but it surely does seem biased


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> No one is called a troll simply for disagreeing; that is a bizarre suggestion. But when they post with no useful advice or information, simply to cause a row, then yes, they are trolls.


Why is it that they posting to just cause a row? Do you think that this is becaue it was one of their first posts and they mention ecollars?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> why has the discussion on them been banned then? and then the post that said about the banning was closed within a few posts, they are not illegal here so i don't understand.
> 
> If this forum was purely a positive training forum i could understand, but it is not, but it surely does seem biased


Discussion of them was always encouraged but this lot were not discussing them, they were trying to sell them and basically telling everybody that they are the only thing that works. They were not having serious discussions about different methods, they did not want to know about positive methods, didn't even know what they are half the time. They just kept bringing up the same arguments.

Something had to be done and this was the Administrator's solution.

They are illegal in Wales and a lot of members live in that part of the world. They have been banned by the Kennel Club since the 90's, and hopefully will soon be banned here.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> they did not want to know about positive methods, didn't even know what they are half the time. They just kept bringing up the same arguments.
> 
> Something had to be done and this was the Administrator's solution.


Fair enough, but you do know that you have just described various other posters here who continually attack CM and older/other techniques which do not match their own?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> Why is it that they posting to just cause a row? Do you think that this is becaue it was one of their first posts and they mention ecollars?


Whose first posts? I am talking about members who posted hundreds of threads with the same old arguments, not people who just join and ask about them. Then it turned out that they were actually selling the things.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> They are illegal in Wales and a lot of members live in that part of the world. They have been banned by the Kennel Club since the 90's, and hopefully will soon be banned here.


Poor example i'm afraid, the Kennel club when i last checked doesn't make the laws that we are governed by in this country. Sorry that was perhaps sarcastic and uncalled for but you know what i mean. Also we are not in China here, and hopefully our govt will never throttle our internet to what we can look at. I dare say there are a lot more members on here who are not from Wales anyway, tho i don't really see that as a point.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Whose first posts? I am talking about members who posted hundreds of threads with the same old arguments, not people who just join and ask about them. Then it turned out that they were actually selling the things.


I was asking, i haven't seen these posts, just looking for info from you


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> Poor example i'm afraid, the Kennel club when i last checked doesn't make the laws that we are governed by in this country. Sorry that was perhaps sarcastic and uncalled for but you know what i mean. Also we are not in China here, and hopefully our govt will never throttle our internet to what we can look at. I dare say there are a lot more members on here who are not from Wales anyway, tho i don't really see that as a point.


If Wales have outlawed them, it is a start. The rest of the UK won't be far behind. When it comes to dogs, I would rather abide by the rules of the Kennel Club than some idiot politicians who know nothing about them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> I was asking, i haven't seen these posts, just looking for info from you


Well, since they managed with their stirring to get every thread locked, I suggest you go into the dog training forum and just look for all the threads with little padlock symbols on.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

I'll try and have a look over the next few days


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> I absolutely agree, in most cases. Honestly, I do.
> 
> But I didn't wait for anything to happen that would set him off and use a firm hand. I'm not heartless. I care massively about this dog. That's my whole point. It was my only option. He literally couldn't go anywhere without something setting him off. The smallest, tiniest, completely unavoidable things.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I wasn't blaming you...just saying that positive rewards based methods do work on every dog...or every organism. It's how we learn.

I personally don't like the 'red zone' term. Basically, for me, it means a dog that is over-threshold, i.e. they have gone into survival mode as they are too close to whatever is scaring them. It is common knowledge that this means a dog can't learn effectively. However, Cesar decides to tackle problems when they are happening, even if a dog is 10 feet from the fearful stimuli.

So, a dog in red zone will not listen to you, but there's a simple solution. Start training from further away. This is how people start to counter-condition animals, do little bits at the time without freaking the animal out. So, a red zone case should never be worked on or tried to get through to whilst they are in the red zone, as learning is severely compromised, and the only thing that does get through is man-handling at times.

I would be interested in knowing what you did to help your dog?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Well, since they managed with their stirring to get every thread locked, I suggest you go
> into the dog training forum and just look for all the threads with little padlock symbols on.


at least 3 threads were removed wholesale. :nonod: which was a doggone shame.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> at least 3 threads were removed wholesale. :nonod: which was a doggone shame.


Really? They were all just locked last time I looked.


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> Don't worry, I wasn't blaming you...just saying that positive rewards based methods do work on every dog...or every organism. It's how we learn.
> 
> I personally don't like the 'red zone' term. Basically, for me, it means a dog that is over-threshold, i.e. they have gone into survival mode as they are too close to whatever is scaring them. It is common knowledge that this means a dog can't learn effectively. However, Cesar decides to tackle problems when they are happening, even if a dog is 10 feet from the fearful stimuli.
> 
> ...


Again, I agree with what you're saying. But the thing is, at the time, the perimeter of my dog's comfort-zone was enormous! Huowge. Too big to realistically keep anything from stepping inside it. The fearful stimuli could have been nowhere near us at all, if it was in sight or hearing distance then that was enough to set him off. Like I said, unavoidable. Extremely draining too. 

To help him through, I basically tried my best to avoid, avoid, avoid anyone and everyone and anything and everything. (That's easier said than done with a dog who's set off by anything that moves or makes a noise.) With a good routine, and after calm tablets, radionics, massage, flower remedies, DAP etc, eventually came the moment that I could get him to give me eye contact when I asked. That was a huge step forward.

As soon as he could be distracted before he got into the 'red zone' for lack of a better term, that was when I could finally stop them from ever kicking in to start with. It just took time and perserverence for him to respond to distractions/rewards. We haven't had a 'red zone' incident for years. His aggression is still bad, but he's nowhere near as damaged or as severe as he used to be.

Newfiesmum, sorry, I'm embarrassed now, but I answered your question in a separate thread to avoid hijacking this one. Too late now! lol. Take a looksie if you like. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/176966-newfies-mum-regarding-my-doglet.html

I kinda wish I'd not brought this stuff up now, I feel like a **** for getting into it all again. My dog is snoozing beside me right now, happy as larry. This stuff is all in the past anyway.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

for the sake of anyone else who might be attempting to cope with severe reactivity - 
_*calmatives * always help._ Have them on board a minimum of 10 to 15-mins *before* a known stressor 
or trigger - here is a list 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

tip: 
don't use just ONE - use a minimum of 3: one oral, one pressure/touch, one nasal. Using 3 or more sensory routes 
means better & more effective help than just one, as they can magnify one another's effect. 
EX: Rescue-Remedy liquid *+* T-touch body wrap with a 4-inch Ace-bandage *+* DAP pump-spray. 
night-time barker - 
botanical-lavender sprayed on a cotton-ball on a saucer atop the crate *+* Anxiety-Wrap *+* Pet-Calm.
& so on... don't be afraid to mix them, they have no interactions or dosage worries. 


NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> ...the perimeter of my dog's comfort-zone was enormous! Huge.
> Too big to realistically keep anything from stepping inside it. The fearful stimuli could have been nowhere near us
> at all, if it was in sight or hearing distance then that was enough to set him off. Like I said, unavoidable.
> Extremely draining too.


i've worked with extremely-reactive dogs - cutting the stimuli down to size with a Calming-cap 
52 Weeks : 33/52 - Calming Cap | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

it makes anything more than a short distance away, fuzzy rather than sharp-focus. Read the photographer's essay; 
her Aussie was a monster in the car, barking, lunging across the width of the car, snapping at the windows in a vain effort 
to 'bite' passing vehicles or pedestrians at crosswalks, & so on. 
here she & her hubby & 4 or 5 pets are *moving house - * & he's sleeping in the car! :w00t: unimaginable. 
a lot less-stress for everyone - including the Aussie, & safer, too. Driving while distracted is H***.

i've also used indoor viewpoints: an apartment slider with a stooge-dog on the far side of a parking-lot, SIDE-on.

a car parked =====================> all the way at the end of a pet-supply store parking lot; watching 
dogs come & go from 100-yards away, unable to hear their collar-tags jingle - just see them move, at a lo-o-ong distance.

take the dog to a parking-lot or the park & stay IN THE CAR - crack the windows; feed the dog breakfast 
one tablespoon at a time, as dogs go by. No dogs? take a break; read a magazine. Another dog? feed... 
it does *not matter* what the reactive-dog is doing, *so long as she or he will eat.* this is not contingent; 
it's pure classical association: _i see or hear other dogs? = *i eat breakfast - or dinner!*_

i have also used *disposable ear-plugs with cords attached - * nope, not kidding. 
insert one earplug gently after mushing it with a rolling motion, let it expand in the ear; run the cord *under & around* 
the collar, then mush the other plug & insert it in the other ear.

one of these days, i may use these - 
MUTT MUFFS - CUSTOM COLORS from Aircraft Spruce


NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> To help him through, I basically tried my best to avoid, avoid, avoid
> anyone and everyone & anything and everything. (...easier said than done with a dog who's set off by anything that moves
> or makes a noise.) With a good routine, and after calm tablets, radionics, massage, flower remedies, DAP etc,
> eventually came the moment that I could get him to give me eye contact when I asked. That was a huge step forward.
> ...


intensely-reactive dogs are a huge, huge problem, especially when they have multiple triggers: sight, sound, movement, 
proximity, food, a favorite toy, handling, certain age-range of humans, men or women, item of clothing/accessory, 
loud environs, vets-office, grooming or other handling, personal space, a particular resting place [bed, crate, sofa...], 
or other specifics. 
try to REDUCE the flood to 1 or 2 or 3 triggers; then if the distance cannot be increased, reduce vision-acuity or volume.

_~~~ ~ windy ~ days... are a common exacerbant, 
if the dog is anxious & reactive on calm days with minimal breeze, s/he will be worse 
on any day with winds over 20-mph or with gusts of 30-mph & up; they can't hear thru the noise. 
ear-plugs or muffs can be especially helpful during a storm, or immediately before one._


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

OMG why has that dog got a pair of blue knickers on its head?? Now thts inhumane!


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Sorry - had to laugh - I thought the same, still tittering :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Sorry - had to laugh - I thought the same, still tittering :thumbup:


the next time U need to transport a sound-sensitive dog by aircraft, let me know how U do it?  
these *work - * sedatives are *not safe at altitude*. Mutt-muffs have no side-effects.

also, many small-craft pilots fly regularly with their dogs in the cabin. WITHOUT hearing protection, their dogs' 
hearing will be seriously damaged over time, even if the dog is completely untroubled by the loud noises of engines, 
rushing air, tarmac, driving rain, thunder, etc.

BONUS link: :thumbup: Google images - :laugh: 
mutt muffs - Google Search


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

LFL, I appreciate that your info could help someone to help their dog, which is great.

Here's my immediate reaction to it, though.



leashedForLife said:


> it makes anything more than a short distance away, fuzzy rather than sharp-focus. Read the photographer's essay;
> her Aussie was a monster in the car, barking, lunging across the width of the car, snapping at the windows in a vain effort
> to 'bite' passing vehicles or pedestrians at crosswalks, & so on.
> here she & her hubby & 4 or 5 pets are *moving house - * & he's sleeping in the car! :w00t: unimaginable.
> a lot less-stress for everyone - including the Aussie, & safer, too. Driving while distracted is H***. .


I taught my boy to lie down in the car so that he couldn't see out the windows. Covering his eyes like that would have upset him more than comforted him. The dog's paranoid.



leashedForLife said:


> take the dog to a parking-lot or the park & stay IN THE CAR - crack the windows; feed the dog breakfast
> one tablespoon at a time, as dogs go by. No dogs? take a break; read a magazine. Another dog? feed...
> it does *not matter* what the reactive-dog is doing, *so long as she or he will eat.* this is not contingent;
> it's pure classical association: _i see or hear other dogs? = *i eat breakfast - or dinner!*_ .


He wouldn't have acknowledged food while there were dogs/people in sight when he was at his worst. But that is a technique I use now, stuff meat in his face whenever we see anything potentially upsetting in attempt to get him to associate their presence with a good thing.



leashedForLife said:


> intensely-reactive dogs are a huge, huge problem, especially when they have multiple triggers: sight, sound, movement,
> proximity, food, a favorite toy, handling, certain age-range of humans, men or women, item of clothing/accessory,
> loud environs, vets-office, grooming or other handling, personal space, a particular resting place [bed, crate, sofa...],
> or other specifics. .


What set my dog off was anything living and anything that made noises such as motors, eg, lawnmower, cars, blender. It wasn't certain age-range of humans, men or women, item of clothing/accessory. It was everybody and everything living, except for me and my other dog and my cat.

He was never badly behaved in the house, either. Actually he was practically the perfect dog at home, (aside from the first six months where he over-reacted to certain noise and self mutilated when I left him alone, and the first year where he kept trying to attack my family.)



leashedForLife said:


> try to REDUCE the flood to 1 or 2 or 3, then if the distance cannot be reduced reduce vision-acuity or volume.


Of course you should reduce the flood. But how can you reduce something when you have no idea it's coming? How can you reduce something that's not in your control? How can you stop a bird from landing near you, or a cyclist suddenly appearing out in the middle of nowhere where you happen to be, or a bunch of kids screaming in the distance? That's the kind of thing I was dealing with.

I never intentionally allowed him to be flooded. He was over-reacting to every-day life.

I couldn't have covered his eyes and ears up all the time, poor dog, it was bad enough that he had to wear a muzzle for so long.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> LFL, I appreciate that your info could help someone to help their dog, which is great.
> 
> Here's my immediate reaction to it, though.
> I taught my boy to lie down in the car so that he couldn't see out the windows. *Covering his eyes like that
> would have upset him more than comforted him.* The dog's paranoid.


And U know this?... how? :huh: U don't just shove it on the dog, any more than a muzzle is jammed on the dog's face 
& they're immediately being handled by the vet while *in pain! * U plan ahead, introduce the muzzle or the Calming-cap 
under calm, relaxed circumstances, _*at home - *_ with nobody visiting, no cops-N-killers mysteries on the telly at 85-dB, 
nobody having a knock-down, drag-out fight next door, etc.

_'yes, but...'_ is a very unpopular category of client, for obvious reasons. There's *always* a _'yes, but...'_


NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> Of course you should reduce the flood. But how can you reduce something when you have no idea it's coming?
> How can you reduce something that's not in your control? How can you stop a bird from landing near you, or a cyclist
> suddenly appearing out in the middle of nowhere where you happen to be, or a bunch of kids screaming in the distance?
> That's the kind of thing I was dealing with.


YOU *DON'T* REDUCE WHAT YOU CANNOT. U reduce what U _can_, in any way U can. 


NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> I never intentionally allowed him to be flooded. He was over-reacting to every-day life.


_'yes, but...'_


NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> I couldn't have covered his eyes and ears up all the time, poor dog,
> it was bad enough that he had to wear a muzzle for so long.


wearing a Calming-cap is not painful. He might not have needed the muzzle for so long, if the stimuli had been 
reduced - but since this is now, not then, we will never know, will we?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> try to REDUCE the flood to 1 or 2 or 3 triggers; then if the distance cannot be increased,
> reduce vision-acuity or volume.


this phrase refers to _reducing the number of triggers - _ 
don't have kids screaming in the distance AND a strange dog 50-yards off, AND a bicyclist.

triggers multiply, they do not 'add' - 
1 trigger + 1 trigger is not 2 times as hard, it's 2-squared & *4-times as hard* as one trigger.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> this phrase refers to _reducing the number of triggers - _
> don't have kids screaming in the distance AND a strange dog 50-yards off, AND a bicyclist.
> 
> triggers multiply, they do not 'add' -
> 1 trigger + 1 trigger is not 2 times as hard, it's 2-squared & *4-times as hard* as one trigger.


So practically tell the city to shut down while the dog is getting treated? How do you control the noise from kids at half 3 mid week? How do you stop a strangers dog walking past your house? Also should a sign be put up on the street saying no cyclists?

If that particular dog was going off on one due to the slightest thing then in the real world it would have been next to impossible to control that dog.

Your judging someone who had to live through that difficult time with a dog that many..maybe even you would have recommended be put to sleep. Thats simply wrong...iv got total respect for a person that chose the difficult path and saved a dogs life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> So practically tell the city to shut down while the dog is getting treated?


oh, for pity's sweet SAKE... No, U _*don't* 'shut the city down'._ 

as i said - U control what U can. i'm afraid U'll have to figure it out among Urselves; i've run out of patience, 
& have lost interest in explaining the process. THE CITY IS NOT 'shut down' - gracious.

frankly, at this point i'm sorry i replied. :nonod: pleasant dreams - i'm off.


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## Fluffed (Jun 5, 2011)

Hey, this is a really interesting discussion. I don't know much about dogs (I had one many years ago, but I'm no expert!), but I've always enjoyed watching the Dog Whisperer and had no idea that there was so much backlash about it. Its very interesting seeing the professional bodies comments.

I thought the following gave a very good overview of why CM is considered less than the best dog trainer in the world 
Cesar Millan: Canine guru, or doggie dope? - Cesar Millan - Zimbio

Its a shame this discussion got (and obviously gets every time it comes up) so heated because until I found the link above, I was being put off from even _considering _CM less than brilliant because of the emotive and aggressive way some are posting about it. I wonder how many others would feel the same way?

Edit: I should say, I have a great friend who has had dogs (border collies) all her life. She loves CM. Although I won't point her to this thread as it may make her feel like it made me feel, I'll be telling her to check out what the professional bodies are saying about him.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Watching this right now by Zak, it's very interesting.
> 
> [youtube_browser]nSWJwKySv-w[/youtube_browser]


He's hot! Zak come walk your dogs down my park, pleaaaaaaaase!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Fluffed said:


> Hey, this is a really interesting discussion. I don't know much about dogs (I had one many years ago, but I'm no expert!), but I've always enjoyed watching the Dog Whisperer and had no idea that there was so much backlash about it. Its very interesting seeing the professional bodies comments.
> 
> I thought the following gave a very good overview of why CM is considered less than the best dog trainer in the world
> Cesar Millan: Canine guru, or doggie dope? - Cesar Millan - Zimbio
> ...


These debates do get very heated- it's impossible for them not to. For professionals working with dogs every day, professionals who have spent money and hours studying through the proper lines and gaining the appropriate credentials, only to have a client or some other unqualified person calling them a 'trainer' or 'behaviourist' completely disregard what you say in preference for some old, proven wrong, completely untrustworthy and sometimes downright dangerous theory and method, THAT is why people go so loopy on these threads.

It drives me up the wall, but I do try and limit it now. If Millan was in a different field, he'd be nowhere. But, because he works with dogs (or is it the same for all animals?) where there are a lot of subjective theories, he can get away with it. To learn about dogs, people need to put as much effort in as they would learning about child psychology, or astrology, or geometry. It doesn't come from a TV show.

What keeps me going is that there is no large-scale qualification I can find that promotes his theories and methods- perhaps maybe the Dog Listener franchise, but even still, that's not really accredited with any respectable body. APDT, APBC, COAPE plus equivalents around the world all avoid him like the plague- this gives me some hope.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> a 'trainer' or 'behaviourist' completely disregard what you say in preference for some old, proven wrong, completely untrustworthy and sometimes downright dangerous theory and method, THAT is why people go so loopy on these threads.
> 
> But, because he works with dogs (or is it the same for all animals?) where there are a lot of subjective theories, he can get away with it. To learn about dogs, people need to put as much effort in as they would learning about child psychology, or astrology, or geometry. It doesn't come from a TV show.


What you say is what drives me wild for probably exactly the opposite reasons. The kind of "behaviourist" psychology behind much of the "modern" approaches to dog training (whether Skinnerian, Pavlovian or more complex forms of operant conditioning) have been discredited in mainstream human psychology for 50 years or more, and yet here we are claiming that they are the modern way and up-to-date, when they are really just rehashed ideas which have been junked by human psychology.


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## Fluffed (Jun 5, 2011)

Rottiefan, great post. I absolutely understand why people get heated - and yes, I'm sure it happens with ALL animals - we're British after all  

Having said that, a reasoned, calm debate might win more people over..... I don't know, I'm new to this, but I do know I'm swayed more by a logical argument than an emotive one.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> These debates do get very heated- it's impossible for them not to. For professionals working with dogs every day, professionals who have spent money and hours studying through the proper lines and gaining the appropriate credentials, only to have a client or some other unqualified person calling them a 'trainer' or 'behaviourist' completely disregard what you say in preference for some old, proven wrong, completely untrustworthy and sometimes downright dangerous theory and method, THAT is why people go so loopy on these threads.


Who does "some other unqualified person" refer to, is it some of us on this forum?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> Who does "some other unqualified person" refer to, is it some of us on this forum?


It applies to many people around the world. I'm talking in general. And I'm not specifically blaming people either. A lot are unsuspecting dog owners who just want to do the best for their pets, but get brought along for the ride by Cesar Millan. But what annoys me is when you have people who have watched the TV show, read some books, trained one dog to SIT and stopped them jumping up by jabbing him in the side, then call themselves a trainer and/or behaviourist.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> completely disregard what you say in preference for some old, proven wrong, completely untrustworthy and sometimes downright dangerous theory and method,


Surely this is down to to the person, they must be free to make their own choice



Rottiefan said:


> And I'm not specifically blaming people either. But what annoys me is when you have people who have watched the TV show, read some books, trained one dog to SIT and stopped them jumping up by jabbing him in the side, then call themselves a trainer and/or behaviourist.


I'm glad you're not blaming people for making up their own mind.

I totally agree with you about calling themselves a trainer after watching a few dvds etc, this wouldn't be accepted in any other field at all.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> Surely this is down to to the person, they must be free to make their own choice


But then what's the point in having credentials and studying? People can make their own minds up- sure. But there has to be a limit to how trustworthy the views they follow are.

I liken (as do others on here) CM to believing the earth is flat. Many people follow him and believe it too, because the real evidence against it isn't as mainstream. But give it 10 years, I would be very interested in seeing how times have changed...


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

raindog said:


> What you say is what drives me wild for probably exactly the opposite reasons. The kind of "behaviourist" psychology behind much of the "modern" approaches to dog training (whether Skinnerian, Pavlovian or more complex forms of operant conditioning) have been discredited in mainstream human psychology for 50 years or more, and yet here we are claiming that they are the modern way and up-to-date, when they are really just rehashed ideas which have been junked by human psychology.


I hear what are saying and acknowledge that those concepts may not be sufficient enough to analyse and describe how dogs think and even learn. There is evidence to suggest that dogs can learn through mental representations of images and such, and learn properties of displacement and object permanence, which implies that classical and operant conditioning may not be good enough to describe what is really going on. However, I think that the human brain is such a more able entity that it's hard to compare the two. Yes, there are similarities, which perhaps people put more emphasis on than they should, but the human brain operates in a much more complex way that just because those conditioning concepts may not fit the mould in humans, doesn't mean we can say the same for dogs (or other animals).

I'd be interested in hearing more though- perhaps you have some links/books you'd recommend?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, for pity's sweet SAKE... No, U _*don't* 'shut the city down'._
> 
> as i said - U control what U can. i'm afraid U'll have to figure it out among Urselves; i've run out of patience,
> & have lost interest in explaining the process. THE CITY IS NOT 'shut down' - gracious.
> ...


My intention was not to make you upset or lose your patience but frankly your not outlining how to control everyday things that set that dog off.

All your saying is do this do that..its like talking to some from 3 mobile network..they read off a script no matter how much you tell them what the problem is...

To control everyday things from setting the dog off via your method it would have meant covering its ears and eyes all day long???

I mean i dont know the dog nor the person that rehab'd that dog but from what they wrote its simple to see that it was a very hard time to go through and they tried everything to control the "floods" that you refer to..but if that doesnt work then where do you go from there?

Sorry im just talking from the layman's view and from that what you are saying its difficult to understand how that would work in a city environment...it probably would work on a ranch somewhere in USA or a country village over here though as you can get that required peace and quiet...

But as someone living in Birmingham with kids living next door that play in their garden all the time..trees with birds singing all the time..kids walking past the house at 'home time'..car horns..the hussle and bussle of rush hour..i just cant see how you could control and limit these factors??


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> But as someone living in Birmingham with kids living next door that play in their garden all the time..trees with birds singing all the time..kids walking past the house at 'home time'..car horns..the hussle and bussle of rush hour..i just cant see how you could control and limit these factors??


Yes, it's hard. And I would actually have to think hard about whether a dog like would be better off euthanised. I'm so happy for NoSpecialFeatures that he/she has helped their dog, but it takes time and consistency. If it was my dog, I would be happy to work on it, quite honestly. But many would not have the time or patience to do so.

Saying that, I would prioritise the different flooding factors, so I knew what to work on first. So, if I had a dog that hated cars and children next door, I'd work on those in the home environment, then in the garden, then outside the house. Work in specific settings and try and get your dog comfortable in them. You may not be able to go out and walk your dog everywhere, so you'd have to spend more time giving your daily stimulation where you can. There's no clear answer or quick fix.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> But then what's the point in having credentials and studying? People can make their own minds up- sure. But there has to be a limit to how trustworthy the views they follow are.


And who decides what the limit is to how trustworthy the views these people follow are? That's not for you or me to decide, only the individual


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> And who decides what the limit is to how trustworthy the views these people follow are? That's not for you or me to decide, only the individual


What about science and the whole field of animal behaviour? Views that are promoted by ethology degrees and courses. A theory is tested, a conclusion is made about it, more studies and research is carried out trying to iron out problems etc., until we come to shared understanding. CM's views are based on old studies of captive wolf packs (he references those studies in his first books) but fails to take note of the follow-up studies conducted in the wild by the same people, who went back on their original views and proved wrong their first conclusions.


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## Fluffed (Jun 5, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> What about science and the whole field of animal behaviour? Views that are promoted by ethology degrees and courses. A theory is tested, a conclusion is made about it, more studies and research is carried out trying to iron out problems etc., until we come to shared understanding. CM's views are based on old studies of captive wolf packs (he references those studies in his first books) but fails to take note of the follow-up studies conducted in the wild by the same people, who went back on their original views and proved wrong their first conclusions.


I hope if I ever get a dog in the future, you'll be around to ask questions of.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

This has turned into a training thread..as do all CM threads..should they not be posted in the training section?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> What about science & the whole field of animal behaviour? Views... promoted by ethology degrees & courses.
> 
> A theory is tested, a conclusion [drawn], more studies & research is carried out trying to iron out problems, etc,
> until we come to shared understanding. '
> ...


yes - non-human animal behavior is no longer a black-box; we have learned an enormous amount starting in 1890, 
& rapidly accelerating around 1930; since 1975 discoveries have come thick & fast. simply keeping up is difficult.

non-invasive brain studies have revealed incredible details; in dogs, non-human primates, & humans, 
among other species, *blood-flow* reveals that the same emotional areas are lit-up across species, 
in the same functional-areas of the brain. The brain-architecture may be different, but the function of specific areas 
is the same. Fear, anger & affiliation have a geography in the brain.

we know a lot about *oxytocin*, the bonding-hormone; tend, befriend, defend. 
women who give birth under general-anaesthesia & are then not allowed contact with their baby for over 24-hours 
have great difficulty becoming attached to that child; are they just lousy mothers? No - they missed the oxytocin rush 
& the connection those hormones elicit. Without expert intervention & that very soon, their relationship will be affected 
lifelong; the intervention can be from another mother, but timing is crucial.

we know a lot about *stress hormones*; salivary cortisol is among the easiest measures, but scat can also be used 
to avoid the trauma of handling, tho more-cognitive animals like chimps & elephants can be taught to offer samples.

*ethograms* are data-collecting instruments, which can be used anywhere: in the wild, in captivity, 
in a lab, in our living-rooms - they note species-specific behaviors as well as generic behaviors [sleep, graze, etc] 
and when combined with a video, an ethogram can note dozens or hundreds of interactions that include long-blinks, 
look-aways, piloerection, allogrooming, & more. The bigger the number of animals, the more complex tracking is.

the *Animal Behavior Society* explains ethograms, & gives an example students can do in class: 
Laboratory Exercises in Animal Behavior - Ethograms - ANIMAL BEHAVIOR AND EDUCATION

a much-more in depth version - 
Ethogram

video-ethogram - 
YouTube - ‪California Ground Squirrel Ethogram‬‏ 
it STARTS rough; hang on, the camera technique improves rapidly. These are speckled ground-squirrels.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> This has turned into a training thread - as do all CM threads...
> should they not be posted in the training section?


what's the matter? :huh: afraid someone might actually *learn* something? Heaven forfend!

*Dog Chat* is anything about dogs; this is undeniably about dogs - & humans. Forum-members & guests 
can *choose* to read the thread, or not - just as they would elsewhere. Ignoring it or quitting is always 
an option. If they're bored, find it pedantic, don't give a whoop - they won't read it. Problem solved! :001_smile:


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> What about science and the whole field of animal behaviour? Views that are promoted by ethology degrees and courses. A theory is tested, a conclusion is made about it, more studies and research is carried out trying to iron out problems etc., until we come to shared understanding. CM's views are based on old studies of captive wolf packs (he references those studies in his first books) but fails to take note of the follow-up studies conducted in the wild by the same people, who went back on their original views and proved wrong their first conclusions.


What about it? It still doesn't give anyone the right to tell someone else what and what not to do.

Debating the subject is fine and also welcome, but dictating to people is not!!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> y
> 
> *ethograms* are data-collecting instruments, which can be used anywhere: in the wild, in captivity,
> in a lab, in our living-rooms - they note species-specific behaviors as well as generic behaviors [sleep, graze, etc]
> ...


I'm going to be doing some house sitting for someone soon in a multi-dog household and have been thinking of using it as a bit of a research study! The owners think there is a clear hierarchy between their dogs, so detailing as many interactions as I can and recognising behaviours recording them quantitively to develop an ethogram should be interesting.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> What about it? It still doesn't give anyone the right to tell someone else what and what not to do.
> 
> Debating the subject is fine and also welcome, but dictating to people is not!!


How doesn't it? It doesn't need to dictate necessarily, but if there are X amounts of studies that show that wild wolf packs are 99% single-family units, that have pre-formed hierarchies and in which control is not competed for, then someone (like CM or whoever) says that dogs compete for control because wolves fight and compete for control in the wild (and only the strongest wolf will gain the leadership position, yadda, yadda, yadda) then we can comfortably say "No, that view is wrong as after thousands of hours in the wild, no-one has ever found it".

It acts as a governing body. I'm not saying that the field of animal behaviour is exhaustive in any way (quite the opposite actually!) and that there isn't examples of 'bad' science, but we can rely on it to offer trustworthy opinions and we should look to it and its findings to find out about dogs. Not just believe our own opinions on our own uncontrolled and possibly fundamentally flawed observations.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> How doesn't it? It doesn't need to dictate necessarily, but if there are X amounts of studies that show that wild wolf packs are 99% single-family units, that have pre-formed hierarchies and in which control is not competed for, then someone (like CM or whoever) says that dogs compete for control because wolves fight and compete for control in the wild (and only the strongest wolf will gain the leadership position, yadda, yadda, yadda) then we can comfortably say "No, that view is wrong as after thousands of hours in the wild, no-one has ever found it".
> 
> It acts as a governing body. I'm not saying that the field of animal behaviour is exhaustive in any way (quite the opposite actually!) and that there isn't examples of 'bad' science, but we can rely on it to offer trustworthy opinions and we should look to it and its findings to find out about dogs. Not just believe our own opinions on our own uncontrolled and possibly fundamentally flawed observations.


Please, it doesn't act as an authority at all. It doesn't matter how many studies are done to to promote one idea or the other. That is not even my argument, mine is based on YOU thinking you can tell someone else what to do, because you believe you know the correct way of doing something. That is not acceptable. I really don't care what you or anyone else here believes about training, my argument on this thread is all about people's free choice. You talk about flat earth, and yet you are doing the same thing by maintaining your way is the only way.

I'm not attacking CM or your own methods at all, however you choose to do it is fine, it;s up to you, and however i choose to do it is up to me.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Right this has run it's course, i've been camping since Friday and this is going strong, that tells you it's gone on too long. If a Mod sees this please close it, I will contact one a bit later if it's not closed.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> Please, it doesn't act as an authority at all. It doesn't matter how many studies are done to to promote one idea or the other. That is not even my argument, mine is based on YOU thinking you can tell someone else what to do, because you believe you know the correct way of doing something. That is not acceptable. I really don't care what you or anyone else here believes about training, my argument on this thread is all about people's free choice. You talk about flat earth, and yet you are doing the same thing by maintaining your way is the only way.
> 
> I'm not attacking CM or your own methods at all, however you choose to do it is fine, it;s up to you, and however i choose to do it is up to me.


Well, if you don't care about other people's views on training, and choose to say that to people on here, that's even more disrespectful than offering criticism in my mind. I care about training methods, full stop. I study a lot, that includes the bad stuff, and form my judgements based on what I believe to be true. I never criticise someone else's opinions without offering evidence against it. If you want to do the same to me, that's fine. But give evidence to your claims rather than going down the "You can't tell me what to think" route- we're all too grown up for that. I am not telling you how to think, I am offering my judgement based on relevant evidence, clearly showing how my opinions have been formed and why I follow them. I don't aim to dictate you in any way shape or form, you ask a question/make a comment, I reply with what I think. Simples.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> My intention was not to make you upset or lose your patience but frankly your not outlining
> how to control everyday things that set that dog off. :


i've recovered - more's the pity. :devil:

let's make it simple - 
if U *know* that a string of 2-dozen kids will be trooping past the house at 3:30 to 4-pm every weekday, 
*U plan around it - * just as U do if half the street goes to work between 8 & 9-AM weekdays: U get the dog out to void 
no later than 7:30, & don't have her/him out during the car-door slamming, neighbors chat, dogs bark in gardens, etc, 
mayhem of that hour.

*anything* that is a trigger & has a pattern: the trash-truck pick up, the recycling pick-up, school-bus, commutes, 
the paper-delivery, the neighbor walking to & from the bus-stop for work or that volunteer shift every week... 
anything with a *pattern* can be adjusted to reduce exposures.

anything *we schedule* is another easily-manipulated exposure. What's left is *patternless exposures* which we 
cannot control... which is not everything, it only seems that way. If having the dog in the house is insufficient 
to reduce the exposure to *under-threshold*, then add something - visually block the window overlooking 
the sidewalk out front; tune the radio to a light-classical all-music station to mask the sounds; have a training-session 
or play a game, feed the dog a meal in their crate or an interior room, like the bathroom...

an option no-one has mentioned - 
*see a vet-behaviorist & ask about medication: anti-anxiety meds, SSRIs, etc - NOT Acepromizine, 
which reduces inhibitions & BITES are then more likely, as well as more severe.*

psychoactive medication is a legitimate option in severe cases; it does not just trank the dog into immobility 
or leave them drunk & hallucinating - it helps the dog to relax, cope, & be able to learn new behavior.

don't give me a string of *Yes-buts* & expect me to smile & say, _'oh, of course - THIS dog is impossible, 
& THIS family cannot possibly do what anyone else has ever done.'_ If the dog is truly untreatable, that's also 
another possibility - but thankfully, very very rare. Behavioral euthanasias do happen; some are frankly lazy, 
some are financial, some are anger after a bite, some are frustrated people with few local resources - 
some are just easier than facing rehab with a difficult-to-live-with dog... Crying over the dog is easier than 
working with the dog.  That's true, BTW - it IS _*easier*_ to end the struggle & just mourn the dog.

what keeps me going are the dogs that i _*thought*_ were never going to make it - & did. 
their memories are the great shining hope that keep me going, even in the face of huge complex problems, 
drop-in visitors who *refuse* to call ahead, teasing kids, impatient adults, relatives who undermine the training 
process, global fears or global reactivity, bizarre intense phobias, inescapable stimuli like thunderstorms, 
& other major haunts.

i remember Dakota, Remington, Sara the Sheltie-cross, Amber, Pistol, Arwen... They all recovered. 
they were all disasters of enormous magnitude - the result of benign or malicious neglect, actual abuse, 
abandonment, Godawful breeding, heritable timidity, shocking traumas. They all went on to have real lives, 
new homes, & relative normalcy with a few quirks. They're the sheer pigheaded persistence that keeps me 
hoping when faced with a really difficult, sad, complex case. *Owner commitment is everything, tho - 
i can't do it on my own; nobody can. the owners, their families, friends & neighbors are crucial.*

trainers are not miracle-workers; relatives who barge into the home of a reactive dog are a real hassle, 
& they really do, sadly, exist. :thumbdown:

i have had a few cases where someone in the family scuttled every gain; that's beyond any trainer's purview, 
as are marital conflicts that bleed-over like running dye into the dog's life & behavior. We see'em; we can't help'em. 
that's not our area of expertise.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Well, if you don't care about other people's views on training, and choose to say that to people on here, that's even more disrespectful than offering criticism in my mind. I care about training methods, full stop. I study a lot, that includes the bad stuff, and form my judgements based on what I believe to be true. I never criticise someone else's opinions without offering evidence against it. If you want to do the same to me, that's fine. But give evidence to your claims rather than going down the "You can't tell me what to think" route- we're all too grown up for that. I am not telling you how to think, I am offering my judgement based on relevant evidence, clearly showing how my opinions have been formed and why I follow them. I don't aim to dictate you in any way shape or form, you ask a question/make a comment, I reply with what I think. Simples.


It's not disrespectful at all, you have twisted what i have said. My meaning was that I don't care what school of thought anybody belongs to. I haven't made claims about either side of training, and please don't infer i'm being childish by me saying that you can't tell me how to think. Why can't you just let people make their own mind up?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Ye Dogs! Can someone close this thread please as I am tripping up over the thrown toys here! (You can't tell me what to do/think, blah blah blah!)


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Ye Dogs! Can someone close this thread please as I am tripping up over the thrown toys here! (You can't tell me what to do/think, blah blah blah!)


Ridiculous


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sheriffjonny said:


> Why can't you just let people make their own mind up?


they *do - * just like clients, who will or will not do as we suggest. 
even showing some owners that it does work is insufficient; i've had male spouses absolutely refuse 
to stop using the prong-collar, despite the wife, who's 6-inches shorter, managing the dog very well 
on a habituated headcollar. Meantime, hubby struggles on using brute-strength, & the dog does not progress - 
the prong is associated with the other dogs, & reactivity continues - even increases. :nonod:

we can only offer advice & suggest options; *they* choose what they'll do - or not do.


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> they *do - * just like clients, who will or will not do as we suggest.
> even showing some owners that it does work is insufficient; i've had male spouses absolutely refuse
> to stop using the prong-collar, despite the wife, who's 6-inches shorter, managing the dog very well
> on a habituated headcollar. Meantime, hubby struggles on using brute-strength, & the dog does not progress -
> ...


Offering advice and your undoubted experience is most welcome. Please check my posts if you want, I agree with you on that. I sound like a broken record, I just don't agree with higher than thou thinking


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> Right this has run it's course, i've been camping since Friday and this is going strong, that tells you it's gone on too long. If a Mod sees this please close it, I will contact one a bit later if it's not closed.


You might have known when you used the two words beginning with C and M that it would go this way. I am rather surprised, btw, as I thought you were a huge fan!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> You might have known when you used the two words beginning with C and M that it would go this way. I am rather surprised, btw, as I thought you were a huge fan!


You know when you have one of those duh brain moments? This was one of them :lol: I'm not a huge fan, I still like watching the show but his methods do nothing for me. My brain must have died while posting this :lol:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

sheriffjonny said:


> It's not disrespectful at all, you have twisted what i have said. My meaning was that I don't care what school of thought anybody belongs to. I haven't made claims about either side of training, and please don't infer i'm being childish by me saying that you can't tell me how to think. Why can't you just let people make their own mind up?


I didn't mean to twist your words; I am not being 'higher than thou'. I apologise if that's what I'm coming across as being like, but I sincerely don't try to be. I hope to offer opinions based on factual evidence- evidence that is not available all the time on TV or in mainstream media (although there are a growing number of mainstream sources more available nowadays). I don't really understand your claims that I don't allow people to make their own minds- I don't hold a cognitive wand that controls people's thought processes. I give my opinion and argue my place when people argue against me.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> You know when you have one of those duh brain moments? This was one of them :lol: I'm not a huge fan, I still like watching the show but his methods do nothing for me. My brain must have died while posting this :lol:


Now this is the sort of behaviour that deserves Alpha rolling- you troll you


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## sheriffjonny (Jun 23, 2011)

It wasn't aimed at you in particular overall. I'm all for hearing yours and others ideas on training. TBH i've not got much experience myself, most of the dogs in the family have been gsd's and that was when my dad was around. I can't actually remember him ever taking specific sessions of training with our dogs, but they all did exactly what he asked them whenever, thinking about it they all did whatever any of the family told them.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> what's the matter? :huh: afraid someone might actually *learn* something? Heaven forfend!
> 
> *Dog Chat* is anything about dogs; this is undeniably about dogs - & humans. Forum-members & guests
> can *choose* to read the thread, or not - just as they would elsewhere. Ignoring it or quitting is always
> an option. If they're bored, find it pedantic, don't give a whoop - they won't read it. Problem solved! :001_smile:


Not really..one of my threads was moved to the training section and that was originally posted in 'Dog Chat'.

NoSpecialFeaturesHere tried to explain that no other method was working and only a firm hand solved the dogs behaviour..but you kept saying should have tried this should have tried that...thats all in hindsight is it not?? Also im guessing NoSpecialFeaturesHere must have tried +r methods but only used any form of correction as a last resort and it worked?

I dont have any experience regarding dogs but surely to judge and shoot down a person's method that saved the dogs life if nothing else is just very impolite.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> ...one of my threads was moved to the training section and that was originally posted in 'Dog Chat'.


yes? 


5rivers79 said:


> [the owner of the globally-reactive dog said] no other method was working and only a firm hand solved the dogs behaviour.
> but you kept saying should have tried this should have tried that... thats all in hindsight is it not?? Also im guessing NoSpecialFeaturesHere must have tried +r methods but only used any form of correction as a last resort and it worked?
> 
> I dont have any experience regarding dogs but surely to judge and shoot down a person's method that saved the dogs life
> if nothing else is just very impolite.


_pardon me - _ 
my post referred to had to do with WHICH sub-forum, & had sod-all to do with another member's post... 
only with Dog-Chat vs Behavior-&-Training. :mad5:

DO NOT attempt to make this about someone else's posts, on an entirely separate issue; 
this is about the thread & which sub-forum the OP chose.

Shame on U, Rivers. :nono:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> yes?
> 
> _pardon me - _
> my post referred to had to do with WHICH sub-forum, & had sod-all to do with another member's post...
> ...


Nope, what you said was why should this thread be moved to the training section as its about dogs so can be in the 'dog chat' section.

Then i answered by saying my similar thread regarding dogs and a different trainer was moved to the training section...that was about dogs and dog training too just like this thread.

Anyway its pathetic to rant about where thread are moved to or which sub forum they should be in..im assuming we are all adults in here and can have a civil discussion no matter where they are posted?

Anyway im off so will respond when i get back in


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Anyway its pathetic to rant about where thread are moved to or which sub forum they should be in..im assuming we are all adults in here and can have a civil discussion no matter where they are posted?


You are so right, does it really matter what part of the section it on, I could understand it if it had been put cat section instead, but this is getting silly.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Anyway its pathetic to rant about where thread are moved to or which sub forum they should be in...
> im assuming we are all adults in here and can have a civil discussion no matter where they are posted?


U were the one who said it should be moved. No one else 'ranted'.

my objection was to this continuation - 


5rivers79 said:


> NoSpecialFeaturesHere tried to explain that no other method was working and only a firm hand
> solved the dogs behaviour... but you kept saying should have tried this should have tried that...thats all in hindsight is it not?? Also im guessing NoSpecialFeaturesHere must have tried
> +r methods but only used any form of correction as a last resort and it worked?
> 
> ...


which implies that i am utterly unsympathetic to the problem, 
& moreover that i am condemning the dog-owner - which i most assuredly did not, & do not.

i have every sympathy for both the dogs & humans in serious behavior cases.
if i did not, i would have no interest in helping them!  plus, at the end of the day the dog is *their* dog. 
i cannot make choices for them - only offer options.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Children i think we should start playing nicely now


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tashax said:


> Children i think we should start playing nicely now


yes, mum... 
who wants to play Duck, Duck, Goose? :001_smile:


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i've recovered - more's the pity. :devil:
> 
> let's make it simple -
> if U *know* that a string of 2-dozen kids will be trooping past the house at 3:30 to 4-pm every weekday,
> ...


You just described my life with my reactive Halle  
Once you set up patterns and everything is going smoothly, almost smoothly


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> yes, mum...
> who wants to play Duck, Duck, Goose? :001_smile:


oooo i do, wait am i allowed to play or do i need to referee???


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