# Pet breeder



## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Met a lady yesterday while out on our walk, I know her vaguely.
She has three Labradors. One neutered black dog and two chocolate bitches.
She had a litter last year from the older bitch, successfully reared and had homes waiting. She is now planning to breed from the younger bitch, which is one of last years pups.
It will not be until the beginning of next year when the bitch will be two.
This lady does all the health tests available and keeps an eye on the ancestry of her dogs, just incase any problems come to light health wise. She already has several homes lined up for the planned litter.
She does not show these dogs, neither does she work them, and to be perfectly honest, they are not the greatest looking Labs that I have seen, BUT this lady does as much as she possible can to make sure her pups have the best start in life and the best chance of a long healthy life.
In your opinion should someone like this be breeding?


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Thats a hard one.But im going to say no.People that breed to improve the breed or to work them are getting enough stick off people at the moment for breeding as it is!

If she doesnt show or work her dogs then what are her reasons for breeding!?


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

I think it's a bit of a hobby for her,she really loves her dogs and looks after them well.
Why shouldn't she breed if she covers all the bases, health checks and homes lined up?
The puppies won't suffer because of her breeding


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

rona said:


> I think it's a bit of a hobby for her,she really loves her dogs and looks after them well.
> Why shouldn't she breed if she covers all the bases, health checks and homes lined up?
> The puppies won't suffer because of her breeding


Its just my views..After all you said your self people should'nt be breeding at the min even people that do it resposnibly and do it to work or show there dogs..Because of the credit crunch and the amount of dogs in rescues!

I have never really understood the need to breed as a hobby anyway maybe thats why i dont think people should be!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Not really asking about now, but the principle of why she should/should not breed.
I could not see that she is doing any harm to any individual dog, either hers or the pups she produces.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> The puppies won't suffer because of her breeding


No, but the breed will if the bitches are poor examples. Does she use quality studs to improve on her girls?

TBH, it's not something I would recommend or do, but am realistic that not only does it happen (and it is a free world), but that in reality, all the reputable experienced show/working breeders in the country could not actually supply the demand for puppies in a popular breed like labradors, so would much rather a pet buyer went to someone like this than a byb or puppy farmer.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

rona said:


> Not really asking about now, but the principle of why she should/should not breed.
> I could not see that she is doing any harm to any individual dog, either hers or the pups she produces.


Right i see..I didnt say she is doing any harm to any of her dog.
you said her dogs werent nice examples of the breed so as a whole the breed will suffer in the long run

I just honestly dont see the need!


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## Baby Bordie (Jun 21, 2009)

rona said:


> Met a lady yesterday while out on our walk, I know her vaguely.
> She has three Labradors. One neutered black dog and two chocolate bitches.
> She had a litter last year from the older bitch, successfully reared and had homes waiting. She is now planning to breed from the younger bitch, which is one of last years pups.
> It will not be until the beginning of next year when the bitch will be two.
> ...


Well IMO she isnt doing anything wrong, If its a hobby of hers, and she does it well, has good and loving family's waiting for the pups, then there is no problem at all with it....


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Dundee said:


> No, but the breed will if the bitches are poor examples. Does she use quality studs to improve on her girls?
> 
> TBH, it's not something I would recommend or do, but am realistic that not only does it happen (and it is a free world), but that in reality, all the reputable experienced show/working breeders in the country could not actually supply the demand for puppies in a popular breed like labradors, so would much rather a pet buyer went to someone like this than a byb or puppy farmer.


The question of the stud was the only one that I didn't ask.



DevilDogz said:


> Right i see..I didnt say she is doing any harm to any of her dog.
> you said her dogs werent nice examples of the breed so as a whole the breed will suffer in the long run
> 
> I just honestly dont see the need!


They aren't the best but not the worst either, but they are healthy, surely this is one of the main aims when breeding, that you breed healthy pups.
Why is showing or working any different, it is still a hobby?


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

There isnt just one factor to think about breeding yes health is one of the important ones but so is the breed stanard and a lot of things!

Yes but you are breeding to do something..your aiming to better the breed and keep a pup to run on..

Let me just ask does she keep a puppy out of every litter she has had! and will she keep a pup out of every futhur litter!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i think its fine what she is doing but i would at least get her dogs get checked by an experienced breeder or someone who knows the breed to see if the dogs are of good standard..... 

... i dont see the need to show or work to breed. Showing is more of a hobby than a "must" to breed....


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

She kept one out of the last litter, not sure about the next.
In my opinion her Labs are far better than most that are supposed to fit the breed standard and are fat waddling things that could never do a days work, that you see in the show ring


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Natik said:


> i think its fine what she is doing but i would at least get her dogs get checked by an experienced breeder or someone who knows the breed to see if the dogs are of good standard.....
> 
> ... i dont see the need to show or work to breed. Showing is more of a hobby than a "must" to breed....


But to who's standard, I would never want a show person telling me what a good Lab looked like


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> But to who's standard, I would never want a show person telling me what a good Lab looked like


ur kinda right there...as its always down to the persons preferences. 
TBH for me health comes first before anything else.
And of course u dont want to breed a dog with faults, like missing teeth or exagerrated parts etc....thats where i would have someone looked at the dog to rule out those faults at least.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Difficult one!

I would say No as well,I can spot the poorly bred staffords a mile off,A neighbour brought one a few years back,I said to O/H after seeing it that it wasn't very well bred and would be questionable if it was even registered.I did eventually find out that No it wasn't registered,no papers etc,it is questionable if it is infact a purebred SBT.

It's a nice dog,however it doesn't really resemble the breed and by continuing to breed from poor examples you loose breed type and quality.
So a few generations down the line and you end up with what ?


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

I am a little confused as to this thread, I am sure it was about 10 days ago that you posted "anyone who breeds a litter at the moment is disgusting and if they try to justify the litter they are talking out of their a**e"


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

The voice of reason has arrived folks!!! as per special request by Nina ! am being very very nice!!!

Here goes!!!

Firstly taking out of the equasion the fact that the dogs are not the 'most attractive' and are therefore not complementary to the breed then we have to ask WHY is this lady breeding! Because to be honest a 'hobby' imo is NOT a reason to breed! at least NOT with the econmic climate being as it is today!

Then, we have to ask! does this lady have a list of people who want these dogs! or does she breed and then advertise the dogs later, 

OR is she in fact breeding in the hope that she will breed a 'little blinder' that she is going to keep! Because if this is the reason then it would maybe be easier and cheaper in the long run to go out and buy such a dog from a good breeder!

And finally, is there the slighest chance that money could be a little incentive here!

There! 
See I can be very very nice when I want to be!
regards
DT


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

> i think its fine what she is doing but i would at least get her dogs get checked by an experienced breeder or someone who knows the breed to see if the dogs are of good standard.....
> 
> ... i dont see the need to show or work to breed. Showing is more of a hobby than a "must" to breed....


People show as part of bettering the breed well imo anyway..If you are trying to better the breed then showing comes part and parcel with breeding..
On the working side i can not comment as i am not involved in it or ever have been!!

To me there is no excuse to breed as a "Hobby"..I would never go to a pet breeder for a dog because i would want to question why they are breeding from there "pets" and as of yet i have never heard of a good answer! to justifie it!

Are the dogs she uses KC reged??? Because if i sold a dog as a pet i would be very angry and upset to learn that the dog was being breed from as a "hobby"


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> They aren't the best but not the worst either, but they are healthy, surely this is one of the main aims when breeding, that you breed healthy pups.


But only one of them, and equal importance should be applied to health and type.



> Why is showing or working any different, it is still a hobby?


The main difference is experience and knowledge. We all think our pets are the best thing since sliced bread, but it is only by comparing them to others that you can make an impartial judgement. I'm not going to go into the show/working debate, show are not to my taste, I find them overdone, however the breed standard is not there to dictate exactly what a dog should look like, it is a guide to explaining the correct confirmation that will enable the dog to function well. Health tests are IMO imperative, but they are not the be all and end all and structure also plays a part. For example, an incorrect stifle and angulation can make a dog prone to crutiate damage.

The other is that you have a pool of knowledgeable people to get guidance from, many with many years experience. A pet breeder does not have this - although going to an experience and reputable stud will help. There will be greater ease in selling puppies as breeders tend to pass on potential puppy owners to others they know are expecting or planning litters.

In reality, most showbred and working bred puppies do end up in pet homes which means there are many quality pets which would benefit the gene pool if they were bred from, however, many are poor quality and will not.

If you compare how canids in the wild reproduce, they do not do it willy nilly with any old female having litters, it is only the alpha females that breed with the alpha males. Many health problems have come to the surface because of indiscriminate breeding and this is far more common in the pet bred dog.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Dundee said:


> But only one of them, and equal importance should be applied to health and type.
> 
> The main difference is experience and knowledge. We all think our pets are the best thing since sliced bread, but it is only by comparing them to others that you can make an impartial judgement. I'm not going to go into the show/working debate, show are not to my taste, I find them overdone, however the breed standard is not there to dictate exactly what a dog should look like, it is a guide to explaining the correct confirmation that will enable the dog to function well. Health tests are IMO imperative, but they are not the be all and end all and structure also plays a part. For example, an incorrect stifle and angulation can make a dog prone to crutiate damage.
> 
> ...


Great post Dundee! But one area I would maybe sway against! The pet breeder! If I ever did breed (IF) I could only ever be considered a 'pet breeder' as there would only ever be one litter!! BUT I am 100% confident that I would say that any litter would be breed with far far more knowledge of the breed the many so called 'proffessional' breeders! 
DT


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> BUT I am 100% confident that I would say that any litter would be breed with far far more knowledge of the breed the many so called 'proffessional' breeders!


But what do you define as a 'professional breeder'


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

> A pet breeder does not have this - although going to an experience and reputable stud will help.


Most experienced and reputable breeders with a good stud would'nt put there dog to a "pet breeder" in the first place imo!
I mean why would they when they have worked hard on getting where they are...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> People show as part of bettering the breed well imo anyway..If you are trying to better the breed then showing comes part and parcel with breeding..
> On the working side i can not comment as i am not involved in it or ever have been!!
> 
> To me there is no excuse to breed as a "Hobby"..I would never go to a pet breeder for a dog because i would want to question why they are breeding from there "pets" and as of yet i have never heard of a good answer! to justifie it!
> ...


i know what u mean but we all know that winning a rosette is often due to the kennel name and whos holding the end of the lead and not really the dog itself.

I myself am not into showing, done it just for fun really and i dont believe that this makes my dog of any less quality to be bred from. 
There are dogs which simply dont like being showed and are still a perfect example of the breed.

Yes, i do consider showing mostly as a hobby as too many undeserved dogs getting rosettes and until this doesnt change my opinion on this wont change either :smilewinkgrin:


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Most experienced and reputable breeders with a good stud would'nt put there dog to a "pet breeder" in the first place imo!


In labradors, provided the 'pet' was of sufficient quality, temperament and had good health tests, and that they were satisfied the owners were breeding ethically, most would. It would be taken on a case by case basis and they would have certain criteria that would have to be met, but many take the view that if they are going to breed anyway, better to do so with a quality dog and with experienced guidance than going to the pet dog down the road.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

rona said:


> I think it's a bit of a hobby for her,she really loves her dogs and looks after them well.
> Why shouldn't she breed if she covers all the bases, health checks and homes lined up?
> The puppies won't suffer because of her breeding


hi rona,

i reckon she should insist all pups are "done" otherwise she will just ruin the gene pool along with the rest of them.

even tho she is doing things the right way it could still do a lot of damage in the bigger picture.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

She does not show these dogs, neither does she work them, and to be perfectly honest, they are not the greatest looking Labs that I have seen,



In my opinion her Labs are far better than most that are supposed to fit the breed standard 



mmmmm rona make your mind up lol.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Dundee said:


> But what do you define as a 'professional breeder'


Good question Dundee, and in theory my post and claims may be contridictory to what I am going to say! I feel I know my breed 'very' well, No names mentioned but there are a a number of breeders who I consider are the top of the tree is what they do! The dogs they breed are choice specimens of the breed, these people have stived to reach perfection, they have waiting lists for their dogs and are selective in the matching, and their dogs are in demand. I cannot claim to have anywhere near the knowledge of many of these people, and never would have but their knowledge is at my disposal!!! (thats the contridictory bit). So any potential mating would be only ever be upon the help, advice and assistance of those that know better!!

I could only ever be termed a pet breeder! but there would be as much research put into the mating that was possible(albeit much of it by picking the brains of others).

regards
DT


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

This is an interesting topic!

I'm gonna throw my two-penneth in here.

As to the original question, no i dont agree with her breeding a litter. The reasons i feel this are simple - the dogs are not good examples of the breed.

To me whether the dogs are shown or worked is irrelevent to some extent. Providing an experienced breeder/judge has looked them over and pronounced them to be good examples then i would have no problems. Of course it goes without saying that they should have exemplary temperaments and fantastic health test results!

just my opinions on the matter!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> I am a little confused as to this thread, I am sure it was about 10 days ago that you posted "anyone who breeds a litter at the moment is disgusting and if they try to justify the litter they are talking out of their a**e"


This is about the subject not about the rights and wrongs of breeding at this present time


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

davehyde said:


> She does not show these dogs, neither does she work them, and to be perfectly honest, they are not the greatest looking Labs that I have seen,
> 
> In my opinion her Labs are far better than most that are supposed to fit the breed standard
> 
> mmmmm rona make your mind up lol.


This quote has been taken out of context


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

rona said:


> This is about the subject not about the rights and wrongs of breeding at this present time


So do the replies we give had to be hypothetical then! based on if times were better!
Becuase my reply would still be the same!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So do the replies we give had to be hypothetical then! based on if times were better!
> Becuase my reply would still be the same!


It's just the concept of a good pet breeder I am trying to discuss not the ethics behind breeding at the moment


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

rona said:


> It's just the concept of a good pet breeder I am trying to discuss not the ethics behind breeding at the moment


Unfortunately there is rarely such a person going by experience!


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

rona said:


> This is about the subject not about the rights and wrongs of breeding at this present time


I am sorry I can not see the difference, I am not going to get into a long protracted arguement. A very derogatory comment was made about breeders being "disgusting" & "talking out of their a**e" which I for one found very insulting and took very personally; as if you knew me couldn't be further from the truth.

If as you say, the dog is not a good example of the breed.... need we even continue


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

rona said:


> It's just the concept of a good pet breeder I am trying to discuss not the ethics behind breeding at the moment


I think maybe the important factor her is actually the word choosen!

Maybe it should have been Responsible breeder! in which case I would have said yes!! but not necessasrily right!
DT


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> I am sorry I can not see the difference, I am not going to get into a long protracted arguement. A very derogatory comment was made about breeders being "disgusting" & "talking out of their a**e" which I for one found very insulting and took very personally; as if you knew me couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> If as you say, the dog is not a good example of the breed.... need we even continue


That was a question put by someone else, and as many on here know it was a very tongue in cheek statement to get the debate going.
Sorry if it offended you


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Dundee said:


> But only one of them, and equal importance should be applied to health and type.
> 
> The main difference is experience and knowledge. We all think our pets are the best thing since sliced bread, but it is only by comparing them to others that you can make an impartial judgement. I'm not going to go into the show/working debate, show are not to my taste, I find them overdone, however the breed standard is not there to dictate exactly what a dog should look like, it is a guide to explaining the correct confirmation that will enable the dog to function well. Health tests are IMO imperative, but they are not the be all and end all and structure also plays a part. For example, an incorrect stifle and angulation can make a dog prone to crutiate damage.
> 
> ...


Why is it not possible for a pet breeder to have gained this knowledge over years of study into the breed?
We took 4 years when choosing our Chesapeake, can the same care not be taken by a person wishing to breed from their pet dog?
Why would someone 2 years into showing have more experience than a person with a personal passion into a breed?


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

I would have to say if they are not good examples of the breed, then no .


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

As a few have said about the dogs not being good specimens of the breed. I agree that she shouldn't be.

But however i do not the big issue about ''pet breeders'' but *only* as long as it is all done properly and ethically. Some pet breeders do have great specimens of the breed they have choosen. I would then agree with this.

If i had a dog that had a very impressive pedigree, a good specimen, every health test was done, a waiting list of buyers.....what would be the big problem???

Just because i wouldn't show my dog 

Some people don't have any interest in showing, but that doesn't make them bad people if they choose to breed.

The breeders here and everywhere do everything the same as this lady *but* showing is the only difference!!

I don't see the major deal that just because someone has no interest in showing! Like Rona has pointed out a lot of ''show quality'' dogs are actually not that healthy at all.

The people on this lady's waiting list will probably have no interest in showing either, they would be simply looking for a healthy, well-bred happy Labrador puppy!!!

I do hope she has contracts drawn up though! And that she follows up with her pup's!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I do hope she has contracts drawn up though! And that she follows up with her pup's!


Not sure about the contracts but she certainly keeps in close contact with all of the previous puppies


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> Not sure about the contracts but she certainly keeps in close contact with all of the previous puppies


Aww bless! I personally do not see a problem with this lady breeding. It seems she is doing everything right!


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

Personally I don't see a problem. She health tests and has homes already lined up, that is more than some breeders that show do! (I know very few now, but some still don't health test)

Showing is a hobby, and an expensive one at that (not that I've ever done it, I've heard it can cost quite a bit though) and as someone said on a previous post, some dogs don't like being showed, but they are still ok to be bred from. 

I hope that the pups are endorsed and sent with contracts, but to be honest she is doing everything else right, so she will be finding the best homes for her pups too by the sounds of it.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

rona said:


> Why is it not possible for a pet breeder to have gained this knowledge over years of study into the breed?
> We took 4 years when choosing our Chesapeake, can the same care not be taken by a person wishing to breed from their pet dog?
> Why would someone 2 years into showing have more experience than a person with a personal passion into a breed?


You may have taken 4years choosing your Breed but after you bought him/her How many other Chesapeakes did you see, get info on etc...  Showing tends to keep you up to date with what is new in your Breed eg health issues etc....imo
In answer to your Original post I would say No as I cannot see a real reason to Breed her Pets


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## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

rona said:


> It's just the concept of a good pet breeder I am trying to discuss not the ethics behind breeding at the moment


but surely a 'good pet breeder' wouldnt breed or even think about it when the rescue centers are full to bursting with 'pets'!!!

she doesnt show or work them and as you say 'they are not the greatest looking labs' and you think its a bit of a 'hobby' for her!!
she isnt breeding to better the breed and she might not be keeping one for herself!!

so why on earth is she even thinking of breeding let alone planning!!


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Showing does not keep you upto date with breed issues.

You don't have to own show quality dogs to produce show quality puppies and breeding show winning dogs won't guarantee you a litter of show quality puppies.

I personally don't see that this woman is doing anything wrong as she keeps upto date with health checks, has homes waiting for the pups and keeps in contact with new owners. Sounds to me like she does a lot more than many a show breeder.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm not a shower or a breeder but I would have to say no my reasons being the same as have already been stated.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Difficult one!
> 
> I would say No as well,I can spot the poorly bred staffords a mile off,A neighbour brought one a few years back,I said to O/H after seeing it that it wasn't very well bred and would be questionable if it was even registered.I did eventually find out that No it wasn't registered,no papers etc,it is questionable if it is infact a purebred SBT.
> 
> ...


good post and exactly what I think. There is more to breeding that just putting 2 dogs together. They may be nice dogs and have good temperamants but their conformation, health and pedigrees need to be taken in to account as well.

Nothing wrong with her wanting to breed just that she needs to understand a wee bit more about it before she goes ahead


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

clueless said:


> You may have taken 4years choosing your Breed but after you bought him/her How many other Chesapeakes did you see, get info on etc... Showing tends to keep you up to date with what is new in your Breed eg health issues etc....imo
> In answer to your Original post I would say No as I cannot see a real reason to Breed her Pets


But we hadn't planned to breed him. This lady takes a great interest in the breed an ancestry of her own line.
So what you are saying is, that no one should breed unless they use their dog for something?

Oh and my OH does keep up to date with the Chessie breed


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Why is it not possible for a pet breeder to have gained this knowledge over years of study into the breed?
> We took 4 years when choosing our Chesapeake, can the same care not be taken by a person wishing to breed from their pet dog?
> Why would someone 2 years into showing have more experience than a person with a personal passion into a breed?


I do think it is possible, however, people involved whether showing or working (and as you probably have gathered I don't show, nor do I have any desire to do so  ) will have far greater access to a lot more knowledge than those owning pets. Generally, someone involved could actually learn more in a year than a pet owner does in a lifetime. Having said that it is down to the individual as some people can spend a life time in dogs and learn nothing .

I'm not against pet breeding per se. There are some very nice examples of various breeds in pet homes. In fact, when you consider that even in a good show/working litter the majority will probably go to pet homes, then it means there are some lovely dogs out there as pets. The reality is though that the majority (not all) pet bred dogs are not good examples of the breed (at least in the popular breeds).

The thing that bothers me about this person in particular is that however well intentioned she is, if she wanted to start breeding, why did she not do her research and breed from a good quality bitch?

Health tests are important, but they are not the only thing to take into account. Temperament and type are just as important and it is more difficult to be objective about a pet dog. I'm not saying that it can't be done, nor that no pets are good enough to be bred from and some very nice dogs come from pet bred litters, but to breed from a not particularly good example of the breed is IMO a no.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Just to add an example. I actually KNOW a lot of the dogs in my bitch's recent pedigree. They are not just names, I have seen them in the flesh (or in some cases on dvd) and I can see them work. Equally, when showing, people have usually actually seen and met the dogs that are behind them. They are able to make much better breeding decisions than someone who just has a list of name and hopefully health test results.

Again, I'm not saying it's not possible to breed a pet litter well and produce nice puppies, it is. And I suppose it also depends on how you define a 'pet' breeder. My dogs are first and foremost pets - does that make me a 'pet' breeder? Perhaps it does


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Dundee said:


> I do think it is possible, however, people involved whether showing or working (and as you probably have gathered I don't show, nor do I have any desire to do so  ) will have far greater access to a lot more knowledge than those owning pets. Generally, someone involved could actually learn more in a year than a pet owner does in a lifetime. Having said that it is down to the individual as some people can spend a life time in dogs and learn nothing .
> 
> I'm not against pet breeding per se. There are some very nice examples of various breeds in pet homes. In fact, when you consider that even in a good show/working litter the majority will probably go to pet homes, then it means there are some lovely dogs out there as pets. The reality is though that the majority (not all) pet bred dogs are not good examples of the breed (at least in the popular breeds).
> 
> ...


But who is to say what is a good example, the mention of them not being good was my own opinion, a show breeder may have thought that they are marvelous examples of the breed.
It was only a chance encounter with this woman, and I do not have all the facts, I have used her as a platform for my question.
I have seen many so called good examples of various breeds that in my opinion should never have been born.
The breed standards on a lot of breeds have done nothing to enhance the wellbeing of the individual dog.
This woman obviously has the long term wellbeing of her puppies in mind


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with it at all. I would imagine that the majority of owners of pet dogs have bought them from just such a person. I dont think many people buy from breeders, they buy from someone advertising locally. I wouldnt breed from a poor specimen of the breed but so long as it is sound and healthy that is a personal preference. I either wouldnt register the pups or would have them endorsed not for breeding. 
As for the rescues being full to bursting - well isnt that with staffies and lurchers and collies, not with labs.
I certainly found it very hard to find a small breed puppy a few months ago. They were sold within days of being advertised - and yes, I didnt go to a breeder, I answered adverts that were within a reasonable distance of me - which covered most of the north of Scotland. 
There have been 4 litters of labs advertised here in Orkney recently and they have all sold without any problems and are all from pet bitches and all gone to loving pet homes.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> But who is to say what is a good example


Well, that's the thing  It will vary from person to person we all have preferences, even within the 'showing' world' certain breeders will prefer a certain type - judges too, otherwise the same dogs would always win, but until you've seen lots and lots of them you will not be able to make an balanced judgement. And you wouldn't get that experience owning a pet. The chances are that (depending on where you live) you won't ever meet more than a handful of your chosen breed, so how can you reach a balanced judgement on what is a good example.



> This woman obviously has the long term wellbeing of her puppies in mind


Oh, I don't doubt that, but when breeding (particularly from a much loved pet) sentimentality can, understandably, cloud judgement and good breeding practises require an element of impartiality that is difficult when done for sentimental reasons.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I see nothing wrong with it at all. I would imagine that the majority of owners of pet dogs have bought them from just such a person. I dont think many people buy from breeders, they buy from someone advertising locally. I wouldnt breed from a poor specimen of the breed but so long as it is sound and healthy that is a personal preference. I either wouldnt register the pups or would have them endorsed not for breeding.
> As for the rescues being full to bursting - well isnt that with staffies and lurchers and collies, not with labs.
> I certainly found it very hard to find a small breed puppy a few months ago. They were sold within days of being advertised - and yes, I didnt go to a breeder, I answered adverts that were within a reasonable distance of me - which covered most of the north of Scotland.
> There have been 4 litters of labs advertised here in Orkney recently and they have all sold without any problems and are all from pet bitches and all gone to loving pet homes.


Well that has bought up another side of things, surely it would be better for those looking to buy a pet, to purchase from someone like this than a puppy farm or supermarket


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Well, that's the thing  It will vary from person to person we all have preferences, even within the 'showing' world' certain breeders will prefer a certain type - judges too, otherwise the same dogs would always win, but until you've seen lots and lots of them you will not be able to make an balanced judgement. And you wouldn't get that experience owning a pet. The chances are that (depending on where you live) you won't ever meet more than a handful of your chosen breed, so how can you reach a balanced judgement on what is a good example.


Are yes, but virtually all the show people in this breed do not know a good example in my opinion.
I would rather have a not so perfect looking working Lab than the very best show dog


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> People show as part of bettering the breed well imo anyway..If you are trying to better the breed then showing comes part and parcel with breeding..
> On the working side i can not comment as i am not involved in it or ever have been!!
> 
> To me there is no excuse to breed as a "Hobby"..I would never go to a pet breeder for a dog because i would want to question why they are breeding from there "pets" and as of yet i have never heard of a good answer! to justifie it!
> ...


tottally agree
if you breed for a hobby and do not show or work your dogs
must be for the money
in both my breeds so many pet people are breeding and the results are dogs in rescue and un heathly dogs being bred
i


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Well that has bought up another side of things, surely it would be better for those looking to buy a pet, to purchase from someone like this than a puppy farm or supermarket


I totally agree and said that in my first post.



> I would rather have a not so perfect looking working Lab than the very best show dog


Well so would I, in fact, I would only have a working lab 



> but virtually all the show people in this breed do not know a good example in my opinion


Well, I won't disagree with you there  IMO they are overdone, overweight and most would struggle doing the job they were bred for - but that's another debate. But, to balance the argument, what they will know is the conformation that is required so that the dog can move well (even if overdone), the breed standard is not so much as what a dog should 'look' like as much as how it is constructed from an anatomical point of view. Show breeders will generally be very knowledgable about this (even if the dogs they end up with are not to my (or your) taste. I said it a previous post that health tests are only part of the picture - a dog with poor angulation and stifle will be much more at risk of crutiate injury than one with good conformation. Surely, ensuring that dogs are bred with good confirmation is just as important as having hips scored or any of the other tests.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> tottally agree
> if you breed for a hobby and do not show or work your dogs
> must be for the money
> in both my breeds so many pet people are breeding and the results are dogs in rescue and un heathly dogs being bred
> i


thats very judgemental , isnt it ??? 

Showing is a hobby...nothing more and nothing less, with the advantage to meet more people with some knowledge ... even though most of them should put their knowledge to some use and not just talk about it


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

IMO if breeding u should get ur dogs at least assessed, by someone who breeds or someone who judges the breed, if they are of an good example or not....then u can discuss with them if ur agree with their judgment or not 

Then of course all the other points have to follow, like temperament and health etc Then there shouldnt be a problem ....


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> IMO if breeding u should get ur dogs at least assessed, by someone who breeds or someone who judges the breed, if they are of an good example or not....then u can discuss with them if ur agree with their judgment or not


Exactly - you don't actually HAVE to show, there are ways of learning and understanding and assessing that don't require you to actually compete, but I suspect few pet owners would bother, although some do and credit to them that do.

Interestingly, in France these assessments are compulsory (and not just conformation but temperament too).


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats very judgemental , isnt it ???
> 
> Showing is a hobby...nothing more and nothing less, with the advantage to meet more people with some knowledge ... even though most of them should put their knowledge to some use and not just talk about it


no i don,t think so
i will never agree with pet people breeding
i,ve seen the rescue results
the sensible people who work or show spend time learning before they breed
far too many people jump on the bandwagon and have not a clue
thinking about the money first


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> no i don,t think so
> i will never agree with pet people breeding
> i,ve seen the rescue results
> the sensible people who work or show spend time learning before they breed
> ...


i dont know how much experience u have regarding showing and show people but i can assure u would be disgusted to know how many dogs are being bred from show people without necessary health tests nor the correct temperament only because they won a rossette claiming the have a very good example so it has to be bred from 

I am not into showing and ur basiclly saying that im not learning about my breed nor about the breeding process at all? Are u saying that my motivation is money because i dont feel comfortable with the showing world and dont agree with some undeserved dogs being placed 1st?


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

some very definitive comments and opinions here lol.

showing is a hobby??????????????? nothing more nothing less????????

yes it can be just a hobby BUT! to a serious and concientious breeder it is also an INVESTMENT. think about it.

also to make blanket statements re show dogs and working dogs and pet dogs is a rash thing to do imho.

as stated angulation and structure are very important in a working dog to ease joint strain and enable ease of movement.

the over grooming and cutting of coats in my opinion has made a lot of dogs not "look" right. and judges seem to fall for it. they style a coat like paul raymond would lol. the americans are even more extreme.

the arguements re show and working dogs will go on for ever but i think myself a show dog should be a perfect example of a working dog and ABLE TO PERFORM THE TASKS AS SUCH.

not a dog with a perm and his nails manicured and forced by training into an uncomfortable stack.

take the gsd's, with that cripplingly slanted topline they cant even walk properly let alone do the job they were bred for.

america seems to be trying to make the golden go the same way, goldens should have a level topline for stamina and durability.

why do they have different standards of the SAME BREEDS in different countries? it's thge same dog and meant to be able to do the same things.

i digress.

any breeder that is intending to sell pups should have the best interests of the breed at heart. that incudes all aspects.

if money is the sole motivator they are contributing to the overall problems full stop.

lineage records are there for a reason, health checks too. selective breeding is a must especially within breeds with known issues.
this is where the knowledge and experience come into play.

not genetics as a speciality but a thorough understanding of the breed you choose to breed.

byb's and dabblers should not imo breed at all. they may have one good dog from 5 litters so thats say 20 dogs at least that are below par.

take away the dogs deserve love part of the equation as well because if the pups were better examples they would still get the love but also be a better example of the breed.

all breeders of pet dogs should insist their pups are spayed / neutered.

dam i ramble.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> some very definitive comments and opinions here lol.
> 
> showing is a hobby??????????????? nothing more nothing less????????
> 
> ...


what do u mean with its an investment?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Showing for many can be an* investment*. If a dog does well its progeny and relatives are more sought after as everyone tries to emulate the success, by wanting the lines.

Showing is often just a marketing tool in order to sell puppies. It may cost a lot but so does a TV advertising campaign to sell any product.
Some people just show, because it is their passion, but it is no coincidence that many are urged to do it by the breeder of the dog.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

they are investing in the breed and standard of the breed.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Showing for many can be an* investment*. If a dog does well its progeny and relatives are more sought after as everyone tries to emulate the success, by wanting the lines.
> 
> Showing is often just a marketing tool in order to sell puppies. It may cost a lot but so does a TV advertising campaign to sell any product.
> Some people just show, because it is their passion, but it is no coincidence that many are urged to do it by the breeder of the dog.


Thanks, that makes sense ...



davehyde said:


> they are investing in the breed and standard of the breed.


so people who dont show dont invest into the breed and the standard ? 

To me investment means like lauren has said, that u invest in the hope to get back a profit. In the case of showing that would be hopefully more buyers due to the advertisement of the kennel name.


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

The stud owner of our due litter will be advising me on which pup to keep as she is active in showing so will have better judgement on pups and i will have the option to show or not. (more than likely not due to "its not what you know its who you know" policy in showing!!!!

My Mum breeds and shows Papillons, we share our affix, she is very critical as we both are that any pup sold and registered must be true to breed standard and healthy to carry the affix as its our name and reputation out there

Saying that though The other litter pups have homes linned up in pet homes and info has been provided with regards to spaying etc.

Im not sure with statement showing as a hobby...................thats some expencive hobby and dedication. Some breeders class that as a profession and have tax books etc to prove it

On the other hand i know that mum now picks her shows and uses it to socialize with people , get info and tips etc and good for dogs to mix , so there are 2 aspects of showing


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

an investment aint always about just money

you invest time in your kids (assuming you have kids lol)


too many emotions are coming into play in breeding threads.

the only thing of importance is the dogs, not peoples whims or feelings.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> i dont know how much experience u have regarding showing and show people but i can assure u would be disgusted to know how many dogs are being bred from show people without necessary health tests nor the correct temperament only because they won a rossette claiming the have a very good example so it has to be bred from
> 
> I am not into showing and ur basiclly saying that im not learning about my breed nor about the breeding process at all? Are u saying that my motivation is money because i dont feel comfortable with the showing world and dont agree with some undeserved dogs being placed 1st?


i have been showing for 20 years and only ever had one litter 12 years ago
only bred so i could have pup to show
all others were endorsed and i kept 2
others all went to nice family homes and none were bred from
i keep all my dogs whatever and first and foremost they are family pets first.
yes i know all about the ones who show, don,t health test etc and who put the trophys before the dogs
i only recommend breeders i know and who health test weither they show or work their dogs.
my first dog was bought as a family pet ,from a show breeder,
i would never buy from a pet breeder or would i recommend buying from a pet breeder
the whole idea of breeding is to better the breed
to breed better than your last litter
to improve the breed
anyone can learn about a breed, but unless you show or work 
how can you tell if your dogs are a good example
and i would never let a pet person use one of my dogs either, never mind how good the bitch was.
alas that programme showed the bad bunch, not the careing breeders
and i believe is the reason so many more pet people are breeding crosses or their pet dogs 
plus i found often pet people charge more for their pups than most show people, so yes a lot do breed for money
as for undeserving dogs getting first place
how can you tell with out putting your hands on the dog
its easy to stand by the egde of ring and judge.
and yes we all know some dogs get places because of the name at the end of the lead
happens in the horse world too


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> and have tax books etc to prove it


That is because the Inland Revenue consider money from selling puppies to be income and liable for taxation, regardless of whether a commercial breeder or breeding from a family pet. So anyone who does breed from a pet should really be keeping records and declare the money made from selling puppies.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

[
Interestingly, in France these assessments are compulsory (and not just conformation but temperament too).[/QUOTE]

pity the Kc does not do it here
and i would like to see licences for all who want to breed, even if you only want one litter, plus compulsory health testing for all breeding dogs
those serious about would not mind
it might stop some of the idiots


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> i have been showing for 20 years and only ever had one litter 12 years ago
> only bred so i could have pup to show
> 
> all others were endorsed and i kept 2
> ...


...by getting the dog assessed by someone who knows the breed? 
How do i know if a show dog is of a good quality when often medals are won for the wrong reasons?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Davehyde said:


> an investment aint always about just money


I feel there are many reasons for showing, but to think that everyone shows because they are doing it for the "breed" or for the "standard" or for purely altruistic reasons is living in cloud-cuckoo land.

I feel many do not appreciate the "ambition" and drive of many breeders. They like to ignore the hard cash end of the whole breeding "industry". They prefer to think that it is only puppy farms and BYB that are driven by money.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

On the other hand i know that mum now picks her shows and uses it to socialize with people , get info and tips etc and good for dogs to mix , so there are 2 aspects of showing[/QUOTE]

exactly
i show because i enjoy a day out with the dogs and my mates
if i get a place ,even better


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I feel there are many reasons for showing, but to think that everyone shows because they are doing it for the "breed" or for the "standard" or for purely altruistic reasons is living in cloud-cuckoo land.
> 
> I feel many do not appreciate the "ambition" and drive of many breeders. They like to ignore the hard cash end of the whole breeding "industry". They prefer to think that it is only puppy farms and BYB that are driven by money.


i never said that and i dont like in cuckoo land, i am probably one of the most cynical peoiple going.

but these threads degenerate into personal feelings and emotions not fact backed debates.


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

Dundee said:


> That is because the Inland Revenue consider money from selling puppies to be income and liable for taxation, regardless of whether a commercial breeder or breeding from a family pet. So anyone who does breed from a pet should really be keeping records and declare the money made from selling puppies.


Yes i know that what i was more refering to was the breeders who have kennels full off dogs used for showing and breeding. Running it as a business........campaining dogs for tickets etc so the price of stud / pups double.
To me they are the "upper class" puppy farmer as when the bitch has had her quota shes put in pet home.
Sorry but to me once you give a dog a home then that dog stays with you.......................hence why mum has 6 paps (3 of which are spayed now)


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> ...by getting the dog assessed by someone who knows the breed?
> How do i know if a show dog is of a good quality when often medals are won for the wrong reasons?


there are genuine judges out there who will judge the dog and not the face
you soon find out who the the true judges are
the good judges will get the big entries
by watching judging you learn


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> an investment aint always about just money
> 
> you invest time in your kids (assuming you have kids lol)
> 
> ...


i would invest in the breed by health testing, best care given throughout their lifes and aftercare for the pups, i would invest time in breeding by always being there, i would invest time and travelling needed to studs etc ...... thats what i would call investment into the breed!

The investment in comparison with showing is only to give u profit by advertising ur kennel name.... no other really.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> there are genuine judges out there who will judge the dog and not the face
> you soon find out who the the true judges are
> the good judges will get the big entries
> by watching judging you learn


thats really good, aint it....

Im more interested in the dogs than finding out which judge i can trust and which i cant  And then there are those breeders who show u the rosettes telling u how great their dogs are .... its like walking through a labyrinth in the show world to find a deserving good example.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats really good, aint it....
> 
> I.... its like walking through a labyrinth in the show world to find a deserving good example.


really ?
funny i never had any trouble finding any
nor telling the differance between the good and the rubbish
don,t listern to the talk, just use your eyes


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> really ?
> funny i never had any trouble finding any
> nor telling the differance between the good and the rubbish
> don,t listern to the talk, just use your eyes


i use my eyes and i dont like what i see .......


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> i use my eyes and i dont like what i see .......


oh well
maybe youll see a better example in your pet breeding


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Some judges are very facey and will consider the wrong end of the lead when dishing out rosettes, there are also some very genuine judges who don't give two hoots as to who's handling or who has bred the dog that he or she is giving rosettes to.

For those that don't show, there are a few illustrated breed standards that could give you an indication as to how good your pet is. When breeding, health and temperament should be given highest priority IMHO.

Regarding the 'investment' then yes there are a lot of breeders who use the showring to increase puppy and stud prices but there are also genuine breeders that show just because they are very proud of the dogs they produce and price their puppies and stud in line with the breed instead of over inflating them just because they've got a new rosette.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> really ?
> funny i never had any trouble finding any
> nor telling the differance between the good and the rubbish
> don,t listern to the talk, just use your eyes


and yes, really!

Whats the point going to a show if u cant trust the judgement??
Whats the point in showing when undeserved dogs are getting placed?

Those atributes make the showing down to only as a hobby, as when it would be taken seriously then there would be only serious winners.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

majortom said:


> oh well
> maybe youll see a better example in your pet breeding


thank u, i certainly have and will......


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> For those that don't show, there are a few illustrated breed standards that could give you an indication as to how good your pet is.


To be fair, I don't think you can tell by looking at a picture it takes a bit more than that.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

an assement is not only to look at the standard but also to rule out any faults which arent visible as such.... and assessment would need to involve in the dog moving as well etc....


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Dundee said:


> To be fair, I don't think you can tell by looking at a picture it takes a bit more than that.


It does take a bit more than that, you'd have to read it too and really go over the dog, eyes and hands. Does help if you can be open minded about it too. If in doubt then ask someone who knows the breed to explain the terms and their meanings but it can be done without going to a show.

The one thing I'd never recommend is asking the vet as all they want to do is spey and castrate... and if everyone did that they'd all be out of business lol


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

rona said:


> Met a lady yesterday while out on our walk, I know her vaguely.
> She has three Labradors. One neutered black dog and two chocolate bitches.
> She had a litter last year from the older bitch, successfully reared and had homes waiting. She is now planning to breed from the younger bitch, which is one of last years pups.
> It will not be until the beginning of next year when the bitch will be two.
> ...


This woman is like me except mine are nice examples of the breed and ive owned the breed for many year and i do let my pups go to people that want show them.

Im a hobby breeder i dont show its not my cup of tea.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Also where does she get the stud from??

A good quality stud would not let there dog go with a poor example so im thinking they are both bad examples


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think there are breeders who show and breeders who don't, through all sorts of reasons some of them are logistical and some philosophical.

Some who show, buy success and others have spent generations of dogs perfecting their breed.

There are those sitting at home with perfect specimens and those who are out showing gaining honours for flawed dogs and vice versa.

I think showing is not the be all and end all. Health is very important as the puppies produced are to be someone's pet, not viewed as showing/breeding rejects. When most puppies sold are to nonshowing/nonbreeding homes then I feel the emphasis should be on producing nice pets, not beautiful "to the standard" things with horrendous temperaments or health issues.
I personally would rather look at my dog with its showing flaws for the next 18 years rather than look at a shining example for only 3 years, (if that).


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Whats the point going to a show if u cant trust the judgement??
> Whats the point in showing when undeserved dogs are getting placed?


This sort 'faciness' go on in all walks of life and showing is no different. Nothing is perfect but to say all showing is like that is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Oh - and I don't show and have absolutely no desire to do so 



> The one thing I'd never recommend is asking the vet


I totally agree with that - they know very little about breeding except the medical side when things go wrong.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i think rona meant more that it was her own interpretation that those dogs arent the nicest looking ones which absolutely says nothing about if their not of a good example.... thats how i understood it at least.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

cav said:


> Also where does she get the stud from??
> 
> A good quality stud would not let there dog go with a poor example so im thinking they are both bad examples


She doesn't have a stud dog so if she *is* getting her dogs mated by studs then perhaps they are good examples.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i think rona meant more that it was her own interpretation that those dogs arent the nicest looking ones *which absolutely says nothing about if their not of a good example....*


I know you don't mean it that way, but I had to laugh 

Rona - I'm sure you have very good taste in dogs - don't take any notice


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> This sort 'faciness' go on in all walks of life and showing is no different. Nothing is perfect but to say all showing is like that is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> Oh - and I don't show and have absolutely no desire to do so
> 
> I totally agree with that - they know very little about breeding except the medical side when things go wrong.


i never said all showing is like that but then i know most of them are which ruin it for the minority.

Luckily i know very good judges who dont let themselves be forced out by those who arent as good and what i heard whats going on behind the curtains is rather shocking ....

Its a shame because i personally like the idea of showing dogs, just not the way it often goes.....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I know you don't mean it that way, but I had to laugh
> 
> Rona - I'm sure you have very good taste in dogs - don't take any notice


 ..... :blushing:


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> She doesn't have a stud dog so if she *is* getting her dogs mated by studs then perhaps they are good examples.


Yes thats my point i would not let my boy go with a poor example so maybe her dogs are nice lol


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> and yes, really!
> 
> Whats the point going to a show if u cant trust the judgement??
> Whats the point in showing when undeserved dogs are getting placed?
> ...


Can I ask you a few questions please 

You don't like showing and can't trust the judgement of judges therefore how will you choose a stud for your NI,who in the breed will you go to for advice as some of the NI breeder's are some of the worst I have ever come across,it seems the good breeders are in the minority with this breed,

Can you trust the pedigree lines of your girl after all that has come to light regarding the amount of fake peds and in breeding within the NI,Are you aware of all the health issue's surrounding the NI ?

Also what do you think abut the KC suspending the allocation of CC's for the GSD in 2012 ?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

> She doesn't have a stud dog so if she *is* getting her dogs mated by studs then perhaps they are good examples.


Not many people that breed and show or breed and work there dogs would put there dogs to a "pet"..So its more than likely they are going to another poor quaility dog imo!

I cant belive this thread is still going ha ha...Been a good read though!
I still dont agree with it.If they were nice examples of the breed then i spose it wouldnt be such a problem..But they seem not to be..So ok she loves her dogs...But how much does she care about the futhur of the breed!? Not alot imo!!!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Not many people that breed and show or breed and work there dogs would put there dogs to a "pet"..So its more than likely they are going to another poor quaility dog imo!
> 
> I cant belive this thread is still going ha ha...Been a good read though!
> I still dont agree with it.If they were nice examples of the breed then i spose it wouldnt be such a problem..But they seem not to be..So ok she loves her dogs...But how much does she care about the futhur of the breed!? Not alot imo!!!


I was thinking the same so either she aint that bad or they are both bad example so will produce poor quality pupsut:

have your pups gone yet?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

cav said:


> I was thinking the same so either she aint that bad or they are both bad example so will produce poor quality pupsut:
> 
> have your pups gone yet?


Well thats exactly it.

Hugo has gone.  we still have 2 here, because news owners went away for the start of the holz so we kept longer! Star is staying and we are not sure about keeping Dancer or not yet as well as star!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Not many people that breed and show or breed and work there dogs would put there dogs to a "pet"..So its more than likely they are going to another poor quaility dog imo!
> 
> I cant belive this thread is still going ha ha...Been a good read though!
> I still dont agree with it.If they were nice examples of the breed then i spose it wouldnt be such a problem..But they seem not to be..So ok she loves her dogs...But how much does she care about the futhur of the breed!? Not alot imo!!!





cav said:


> I was thinking the same so either she aint that bad or they are both bad example so will produce poor quality pupsut:
> 
> have your pups gone yet?


But they are going to be healthy and loved, and that in my opinion is this most important things that we can do for any individual dog


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Well thats exactly it.
> 
> Hugo has gone.  we still have 2 here, because news owners went away for the start of the holz so we kept longer! Star is staying and we are not sure about keeping Dancer or not yet as well as star!


So you get keep them for abit longer 

Im sure Hugo will be happy in his new home and that will be great in you get keep 2


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Yes they may be healthy and loved..But that imo is not a reason to breed!!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

cav said:


> So you get keep them for abit longer
> 
> Im sure Hugo will be happy in his new home and that will be great in you get keep 2


Yes they get to stay here longer  but they will be leaving next week 

Yes Hugo has an amazing home with the most wonderful family! Yes its always good to run two on if they make the grade!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

I dont show mine but still would never breed from poor quality but i do agree health and temprement and loving homes are very important


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> But they are going to be *healthy* and *loved*, and that in my opinion is this most important things that we can do for any individual dog.


I used to be very black and white, in my classification of what is good and bad about breeders.

My classification, now has taken a shades of grey approach.
I realise now that some breeders I thought were "good" are anything but, and those who I had thought "bad" without a second thought, have loads of redeeming qualities.

This lady is one of those. Previously I would have definitely been in the "no" camp but actually now I am in the "yes" camp. She is doing the best she can I feel, she is health testing and monitoring pedigrees. The fact she doesn't show nor using her dogs for working is immaterial. She is producing dogs primarily for the pet market and as such I feel she is doing a good job.
The only criticism I have is that in these crunch times then perhaps she should hold off breeding at the moment, just like every other breeder. There are loads of dogs out there needing rehomed.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes they may be healthy and loved..But that imo is not a reason to breed!!!


But what is the reason to breed, you just have to look at some of the so called improved breeds to realize what a mess some breed clubs have made of their breed!!!!
I really think a lot depends on the type of people you get in each individual breed.
I have been out of the showing type loop for a long time, but what the Red setter people did for their breed in the 60's and 70's was admirable.


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes they may be healthy and loved..But that imo is not a reason to breed!!!


Kerry can i ask...im confused.....people keep saying breeding should only be allowed to better the breed......yet on another thread the kc are now changing the breed requirements because gsd are basically deformed....now i know the breed clubs set the standards but the kc agree.....so why is it so important to breed to kc stanards even though certain breeds of dogs are suffering and are unhealthy....im confused......


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

cav said:


> I dont show mine but still would never breed from poor quality but i do agree health and temprement and loving homes are very important


Thats the main problem i have with it...Poor examples of the breed. That will do the breed no favours in the long run imo..

Yep i agree health, temprement and loving homes are very important. Most of ours pup have gone/going to pet homes! ..


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

rona said:


> But what is the reason to breed, you just have to look at some of the so called improved breeds to realize what a mess some breed clubs have made of their breed!!!!
> I really think a lot depends on the type of people you get in each individual breed.
> I have been out of the showing type loop for a long time, but what the Red setter people did for their breed in the 60's and 70's was admirable.


I also belive its to do with the breed aswell because if you look at our breed they suffer with not very much..Then you look at the labs and what have you that suffer with a whole different load of problems!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> Kerry can i ask...im confused.....people keep saying breeding should only be allowed to better the breed......yet on another thread the kc are now changing the breed requirements because gsd are basically deformed....now i know the breed clubs set the standards but the kc agree.....so why is it so important to breed to kc stanards even though certain breeds of dogs are suffering and are unhealthy....im confused......


Yes certain breeds are having a change of standard..Witch i think is great..some of the breed's are in a right mess..and it doesnt help that there are pet breeders breeding to no standard!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Thats the main problem i have with it...Poor examples of the breed. That will do the breed no favours in the long run imo..
> 
> Yep i agree health, temprement and loving homes are very important. Most of ours pup have gone/going to pet homes! ..


You haven't read all the posts have you :hand::hand::hand:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

rona said:


> You haven't read all the posts have you :hand::hand::hand:


Yep i did!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yep i did!


Then you would have noticed that it was only my own opinion that they are poor examples, may be a show person would think they are wonderful and may be the stud is a show dog. 
I'm not sure we didn't go into such detail


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Can I ask you a few questions please
> 
> You don't like showing and can't trust the judgement of judges therefore how will you choose a stud for your NI,who in the breed will you go to for advice as some of the NI breeder's are some of the worst I have ever come across,it seems the good breeders are in the minority with this breed,
> 
> ...


Some one asked to buy my lab's paper's


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

rona said:


> Then you would have noticed that it was only my own opinion that they are poor examples, may be a show person would think they are wonderful and may be the stud is a show dog.
> I'm not sure we didn't go into such detail


Yes i did read that..

I still think the same as i have said though out all of my posts. To me it really isnt worth debating i know what i think and you know what you think  I wont change my mind and you wont change yours..So there really is no point LOL.:smilewinkgrin:
kerry


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

simply put if i can be simple lol.

this should apply to every breed.

the breed standard should reflect the purpose of the breed, (retriever, terrier etc)

the standard should ALWAYS consider form and function in relation to each other.

ponced up grooming and cuts to hide faults should be penalised in showing.

(would you want a crippled gsd with a horrendous unfunctional topline that was a show winner but couldnt look after your sheep because it couldnt lift its arse off the floor and waddled like a duck when it walked)

judges should be assessed and disqualified for too many crap decisions outside the standard and ignoring function, because at the end of the day all breeds where bred for their particular function.

who cares about a pretty dog that cant go ratting or retrieving or hunting.

asthetics have taken over functionality.

border collies as an example, would some of the best sheep dogs in the world win a dog show? probably not cos their leg is 1/2 inch too long, or their tail is a bit ratty, but they should, if they can work like that they explemplify their breed.


also many good breeders dont make money, they run at a loss or hardly break even. 

these type of threads go round in circles because it's all opinion that is lambasted about and not facts


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes i did read that..
> 
> I still think the same as i have said though out all of my posts. To me it really isnt worth debating i know what i think and you know what you think  I wont change my mind and you wont change yours..So there really is no point LOL.:smilewinkgrin:
> kerry


I haven't really got an opinion on this, I just asked what I thought was an interesting question. To continue picking peoples brains, I have to counter what they say. If I agreed the thread would stop and I would learn nothing


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't see too much of a problem.
Some people's pet dogs may actually come from really good lines, not everyone wants a dog to show or work it.
And just because it's a pet does not mean the person doesn't know much about the breed. She may have done all her research just like responsible breeders.
And why if you're a pet breeder does it mean you are not experienced?


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

round and round and round round and round lol.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

davehyde said:


> simply put if i can be simple lol.
> 
> this should apply to every breed.
> 
> ...


Again, this bring up another question.
I have met many people over the years with working gun dogs, some have been exceptional workers but have lacked somewhat in the beauty stakes.
Now if some one with one of these dogs wished to breed and had all health tests etc. Does that mean that because it doesn't conform to a standard, that all the amazing attributes that this dog possesses should be lost?


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

The termonology of "pet breeder" isn't black & white 

I would be considered a "pet breeder" as I own both the sire & the dam and I have never bred before; so theoretically I am not someone that you should purchase a puppy from! Although saying that, my dogs are health tested for heart & thyroid & DNA profiled, I researched their lines for 2 years before finally deciding on mating them. I had the whole litter of 7 reserved before they were even born, I am keeping Tia from the litter. Money has never even come into the equation with this litter as I will be lucky to break even and I couldn't even begin to explain the time & effort invested into my babies.

Also how & when does a "pet breeder" become a "breeder"? Is there a magic quota?

Rach


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

davehyde said:


> round and round and round round and round lol.


we are all allowed to voice our thoughts


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Molly's Mum said:


> The termonology of "pet breeder" isn't black & white
> 
> I would be considered a "pet breeder" as I own both the sire & the dam and I have never bred before; so theoretically I am not someone that you should purchase a puppy from! Although saying that, my dogs are health tested for heart & thyroid & DNA profiled, I researched their lines for 2 years before finally deciding on mating them. I had the whole litter of 7 reserved before they were even born, I am keeping Tia from the litter. Money has never even come into the equation with this litter as I will be lucky to break even and I couldn't even begin to explain the time & effort invested into my babies.
> 
> ...


Im a pet breeder as well i could have sold my pups ten times over im still having calls 

my dogs are also health tested and like you had a waiting list and no expense was spared with mum and pups.

2 pups have gone to people for showing rest went to pet homes which i prefear

I would also say that pet dogs can be just as good quality as show dogs


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

rona said:


> Again, this bring up another question.
> I have met many people over the years with working gun dogs, some have been exceptional workers but have lacked somewhat in the beauty stakes.
> Now if some one with one of these dogs wished to breed and had all health tests etc. Does that mean that because it doesn't conform to a standard, that all the amazing attributes that this dog possesses should be lost?


well there's the rub.

what breeds are truly pet breeds? none that i can think of. apart from the toy minature versions of bigger dogs.

most were bred for a purpose.

it is some ponced up club that has set standards and then let them be changed to suit other people who think this and that.

the standard shoud be the job for which it was bred in the first place.

geez even i could look good with a great make up artist and a few steroids lol.

dogs are historicaly working animals and standards should reflect that as should breeding programs.

but to the original question, no i dont just think anyone should breed a dog just because they think it's a good / nice dog.

we have enough breed specific issues now, lets try to strengthen the gene pool not dilute it.

we do it for humans, tests for this gene and that gene and so on.

if we loved dogs as much we all profess to we wouldnt even consider breeding them without enough ACCURATE knowledge of the requirements to BETTER THE GENE POOL.

an "uneducated" personal opinion of a dog is not an assurance of a good one.

research is what determines a better bloodline and a stronger gene pool.
understanding the lineage and strengths and weaknesses of certain lines as a consistent linear happening.

you will always get the throwback that will b e either great example from bad parents that gets lucky, or a bad example from good parents that gets a rogue gene.
but these are rare thanks to research in "established and properly run" kennels. (coundnt think of a phraselol)


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Can I ask you a few questions please
> 
> You don't like showing and can't trust the judgement of judges therefore how will you choose a stud for your NI,who in the breed will you go to for advice as some of the NI breeder's are some of the worst I have ever come across,it seems the good breeders are in the minority with this breed,
> 
> ...


The challenge i have now is to find those in the minority which i admit is not easy but if i would rely on the shows then i believe the chances would be higher i would end up with the wrong stud.
Like with all advice...u take it as it is ... advice.... u question the advice in order to make the right decision.

U cant trust any pedigree papers really, thats why u have to be carefull what u do ....my gsd stud owner found her past dogs in other peoples pedigree papers where her dogs have never been mated to those dogs and had nothing to do with their lines whatsoever.

I think the kc is doing the right thing by raising their hand up to the breeders regarding the bad bred german shepherds.... i just hope things will change in the gsd breed..... for the good!



DevilDogz said:


> Yes certain breeds are having a change of standard..Witch i think is great..some of the breed's are in a right mess..and it doesnt help that there are pet breeders breeding to no standard!


But its the show breeders who got those breeds in such a state not the pet breeders..... im sure some pet breeders bred actually better quality dogs than u would have found in the show.
And pet breeders do follow the standard, but they are not influenced by the show world or simply arent interested in showing.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i think a "pet breeder" is individually interpreted by people....

I class "pet breeder" simply as a breeder who doesnt show but does everything else by the book....


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

And pet breeders do follow the standard, but they are not influenced by the show world or simply arent interested in showing.


this did make me laugh out loud sorry.

do these so called pet breeders use any form of trial mating using the databases that are available?

registered dogs can be looked at online for free and health scores looked at lineage etc.

and even dogs that have never mated with you dogs can be in the line somwhere.

using a trial mate you can throw up "probability" factors and stuff related to breeds.

but i suppose most pet breeders dont bother.

i could put mine to a decent looking bitch and have pups, sell them and get money.

but i wouldnt have a clue as to the pups outcome regarding health and structure.

decry them all you like but pedigree papers are at least performing a sevice in that you know the lineage of a dog and can at least make educated decisions to what pair to put together to produce a litter with a high chance of being good.

and before you go on about dodgy papers and stuff the same applies to cars and other things.

so once again it boils down to RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

> But its the show breeders who got those breeds in such a state not the pet breeders..... im sure some pet breeders bred actually better quality dogs than u would have found in the show.
> And pet breeders do follow the standard, but they are not influenced by the show world or simply arent interested in showing.


But you said you think that "pet breeders" should have there dogs looked over by a judge in the breed or by a breeder! So if they are making that much of a mess of these dogs then why would a "pet breeder" need there dogs looked at by a judge!! Most judges breed at least one of the dogs they judge!

Theres good and bad in anything..so im sure there are good "pet breeders" and i know for a fact theres bad...I also know for a fact there are got breeders that show/work there dogs and im disapointed to say i know for a fact there are bad breeders...and this is in all breeds not just a certain one!!!


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

cav said:


> Im a pet breeder as well i could have sold my pups ten times over im still having calls
> 
> my dogs are also health tested and like you had a waiting list and no expense was spared with mum and pups.
> 
> ...


I ASSUME THEY WERE ALL KC REG'D PUPS THEN. oops caps lol srry.

what are the sires and dams kennel name?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> And pet breeders do follow the standard, but they are not influenced by the show world or simply arent interested in showing.
> 
> this did make me laugh out loud sorry.
> 
> ...


i dont really get u here lol

A pet breeder (i use myself as an example here lol) due to my interest in the dog world i have contacts to people which guide me and advice me.
I dont go and look online for a stud because i am classed as a "pet breeder" and certainly i wouldnt do any trail matings and im not sure if i really understand what ur saying so before i go any deeper i rather leave it here ....
 lololol


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

Natik said:


> i dont really get u here lol
> 
> A pet breeder (i use myself as an example here lol) due to my interest in the dog world i have contacts to people which guide me and advice me.
> I dont go and look online for a stud because i am classed as a "pet breeder" and certainly i wouldnt do any trail matings and im not sure if i really understand what ur saying so before i go any deeper i rather leave it here ....
> lololol


i rest my case.

ignorance is truly bliss.

do you not know that you can do a trial mate online? to see what the outcome and 5 gen pedigree of a mating will be of 2 registered dogs?

mmmmmmm pet breeding lol.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> But you said you think that "pet breeders" should have there dogs looked over by a judge in the breed or by a breeder! So if they are making that much of a mess of these dogs then why would a "pet breeder" need there dogs looked at by a judge!! Most judges breed at least one of the dogs they show!
> 
> Theres good and bad in anything..so im sure there are good "pet breeders" and i know for a fact theres bad...I also know for a fact there are got breeders that show/work there dogs and im disapointed to say i know for a fact there are bad breeders...and this is in all breeds not just a certain one!!!


by having a dog assessed u have a say as well if u agree with their decision and u can question points and discuss them and by not having someone standing next to u with a popular kennel name the person assessing ur dog is less likly to be influenced, where at dog show ur either are placed or ur not...


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

aint it funny that people may be so sure they are right but dont have a strong enough conviction in being right to accept criticism.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> by having a dog assessed u have a say as well if u agree with their decision and u can question points and discuss them and by not having someone standing next to u with a popular kennel name the person assessing ur dog is less likly to be influenced, where at dog show ur either are placed or ur not...


I know what we could do..We could all swap dogs so the popular kennels are handling our dogs!!!   :001_tt2:


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I know what we could do..We could all swap dogs so the popular kennels are handling our dogs!!!   :001_tt2:


now that would be a interesting day out,lol


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I know what we could do..We could all swap dogs so the popular kennels are handling our dogs!!!   :001_tt2:


We use to do this at ringcraft on a regular basis,it was actually quite fun 

I much prefer to handle my own dogs in the ring though,yes I could have a proffessional handler win with my dogs but I would not take any satisfaction from that whatsoever.

Trial mating's online are great,we did a few with my bitch,however never got the chance to breed from her


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> We use to do this at ringcraft on a regular basis,it was actually quite fun
> 
> I much prefer to handle my own dogs in the ring though,yes I could have a proffessional handler win with my dogs but I would not take any satisfaction from that whatsoever.
> 
> Trial mating's online are great,we did a few with my bitch,however never got the chance to breed from her


Yes i would rather handle mine too..But thats good that you swapped dogs at ring craft because its always good for the dog to get use to different people handling them!!

Yes i think so too..sorry about your girl!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> i rest my case.
> 
> ignorance is truly bliss.
> 
> ...


no, i dont because im still learning and obviously misundertood u...and also english is not my mother language so thank u for UR ignorance


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

I know im miles behind everyone else with knowledge of breeding but i just dont understand why anyone would want to breed to kc standards when the standards are producing deformed unhealthy dogs......and the kc are even admitting this...with gsd.....


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> I know im miles behind everyone else with knowledge of breeding but i just dont understand why anyone would want to breed to kc standards when the standards are producing deformed unhealthy dogs......and the kc are even admitting this...with gsd.....


This is not the case with all breed!! Mainly breeds that are over breed!! 
I spose we are lucky with our breed they suffer very little with health problems!


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> This is not the case with all breed!! Mainly breeds that are over breed!!
> I spose we are lucky with our breed they suffer very little with health problems!


but how would you feel Kerry in a few years your breed standard was changed and because of this your breed had health problems would you still want to breed to the kc standard knowing your dogs would suffer??


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> but how would you feel Kerry in a few years your breed standard was changed and because of this your breed had health problems would you still want to breed to the kc standard???


No we would'nt want to breed dogs with health problems so the simple answer is no we would'nt breed to KC standard! :smilewinkgrin:


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

its not the kennel club that sets standards, it is the breed clubs.

the kc is a registry and advisory body.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> No we would'nt want to breed dogs with health problems so the simple answer is no we would'nt breed to KC standard! :smilewinkgrin:


but then ur dogs wouldnt be placed in shows... meaning they would be looked as poor examples .... would u still continue showing?


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> No we would'nt want to breed dogs with health problems so the simple answer is no we would'nt breed to KC standard! :smilewinkgrin:


I find all this breeding confusing......i guess the kc is ok for breeds with no health problems......but the breeding standards for some are terrible and the damage they have done to certain breeds is disgusting.......looking at the links on the other thread about gsd's is very sad and to think breeders have done that to a breed of dog is wrong.....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

davehyde said:


> its not the kennel club that sets standards, it is the breed clubs.
> 
> the kc is a registry and advisory body.


the kc approves the standards... they can quite easily dismiss them if they dont agree with them. :smilewinkgrin:


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

davehyde said:


> its not the kennel club that sets standards, it is the breed clubs.
> 
> the kc is a registry and advisory body.


i did say that in one of my posts...the breed club may set the standards but the kc also agree to them.......so just as bad imho......


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Natik said:


> but then ur dogs wouldnt be placed in shows... meaning they would be looked as poor examples .... would u still continue showing?


good question.........


Natik said:


> the kc approves the standards... they can quite easily dismiss them if they dont agree with them. :smilewinkgrin:


thats what i was meaning........


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> but then ur dogs wouldnt be placed in shows... meaning they would be looked as poor examples .... would u still continue showing?


Yep i would continue showing!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Yep i would continue showing!!


why? if u would stand no chance of being placed?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yep i would continue showing!!


Would you continue breeding?


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yep i would continue showing!!


And would you continue to breed...even if your dog was not upto the kc standard?
sorry to bombard you kerry


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> why? if u would stand no chance of being placed?


We could have the best dogs now and not be placed!!! Why give up?

We want the best for our breed and we will contiune getting healthy pups out there...Its not all about looks!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> And would you continue to breed...even if your dog was not upto the kc standard?
> sorry to bombard you kerry


See i cant really answer that because i am not the breeder! But i will any way ha ha

But im not sure depends what they were failing on i spose!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> We could have the best dogs now and not be placed!!! Why give up?
> 
> We want the best for our breed and we will contiune getting healthy pups out there...Its not all about looks!


im sure most "pet breeders" see things exact the same :smilewinkgrin:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> im sure most "pet breeders" see things exact the same :smilewinkgrin:


Im sure they do.Well not all of them!


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/238/sgwc.pdf


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> I know im miles behind everyone else with knowledge of breeding but i just dont understand why anyone would want to breed to kc standards when the standards are producing deformed unhealthy dogs......and the kc are even admitting this...with gsd.....


My breed the SBT is quite healthy 

I don't think our standard will be changed in any way.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Theres good and bad in anything..so im sure there are good "pet breeders" and i know for a fact theres bad...I also know for a fact there are got breeders that show/work there dogs and im disapointed to say i know for a fact there are bad breeders...and this is in all breeds not just a certain one!!!





DevilDogz said:


> No we would'nt want to breed dogs with health problems so the simple answer is no we would'nt breed to KC standard! :smilewinkgrin:





DevilDogz said:


> We could have the best dogs now and not be placed!!! Why give up?
> 
> We want the best for our breed and we will contiune getting healthy pups out there...Its not all about looks!


In these three posts, you have just agreed to what I have been trying to say


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Apols if I go over anything that's been said before, I was kind of speed reading to catch up on some threads.

This one sort of struck a chord with me, having two chocolate Labrador bitches, that come from someone who neither shows nor works their dogs, not because they don't want to, but because they know the limitations of the breeding stock that they own. The one bitch wasn't outgoing enough to be shown, and the other they didn't think at the time had 'good enough' conformation, although looking back they possibly now regret this, as they have been advised that she is actually a very nice bitch. And that's not to say they haven't/won't show/work the appropriate dog.

I owe an awful lot to this person for their knowledge and help, and I hope I do as well by my girls in the future as they have done by theirs.

I'm certainly not against responsible pet breeding, as I've posted before. There is a huge difference between someone who uses the 'stud' dog down the road, because they'd like to carry on from their bitch, to someone who researches lines and tries to do the best with their 'pet breeding' schemes. 

I haven't, as yet, proven Tau, yet plan to breed from her next year (if circumstances are right), so some could question my reason for breeding. It certainly isn't because she's the best show example (she's got legs for a start  ), although she has some nice points; but then despite her breeding I prefer her appearance as she's closer to a working lines Lab in looks. In fact, she's had nice comments from those that work their Labs about her conformamtion, and although she hasn't got ability in bag fulls, she certainly has some in there.

So no, I don't think this Lady is doing anything wrong, if there were only pet breeders like her, the rescue's wouldn't be full at all, that bit is down to the unscrupulous people and I think it's unfair to see them all bunched together.


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Apols if I go over anything that's been said before, I was kind of speed reading to catch up on some threads.
> 
> This one sort of struck a chord with me, having two chocolate Labrador bitches, that come from someone who neither shows nor works their dogs, not because they don't want to, but because they know the limitations of the breeding stock that they own. The one bitch wasn't outgoing enough to be shown, and the other they didn't think at the time had 'good enough' conformation, although looking back they possibly now regret this, as they have been advised that she is actually a very nice bitch. And that's not to say they haven't/won't show/work the appropriate dog.
> 
> ...


I completley agree with you 
x


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

So if everyone who says no-one should breed if you don not show your dog...........what about people who live on Islands like myself???

What so any breeder here or any other Island are all bad because we don't show??? Some people locally do show their dosg and some even made Crufts but the (very few) breeders we have here do not nesscessarliy show! Are they bad or irresopnsible??

We don't have the rescue crisis that most places do, in fact one rescue over here goes to the UK to bring dogs back here to be rescued!!!

If i ever bred any dog i owned (and i do hope to many years down the line) i shouldn't be allowed because i wouldn't show my dog?? I think it is a very harsh statement to make. There would be no difference to the way i would breed/raise/home my pups other than going to a show which i have absolutely no interest in!!

On another subject that has been raised...........people *should show or work their dogs*

I am glad it has the 'or' in it!! Because some show dogs wouldn't have a chance of doing atheletic field trails for example!!!
And some breeds have changed so much by humans, who want a particular way the dogs look, that the couldn't work if their life depended on it! Some can hardly walk for a couple of hours let alone anything else!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

I think people are taking what i have said way out of context...Not once did i say people that dont show or work there dogs are irresposible or bad breeders..All i said was i didnt agree with it because I couldnt see the reasons behind it..We know people that show there dogs breed to keep there line going and to keep a pup..we know people that work there dogs breed to keep a pup to work and to keep there working blood lines going....

I just dont understand why people breed as a hobby..Just doesnt make sense to me..
BUT that doesnt mean i think people that do do it and do it well and repsonsibly are bad or irresposible breeders and not once in any of my posts did i say that.and i can't see that any one else did either!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

rona said:


> But we hadn't planned to breed him. This lady takes a great interest in the breed an ancestry of her own line.
> So what you are saying is, that no one should breed unless they use their dog for something?
> 
> Oh and my OH does keep up to date with the Chessie breed


LOL I was not personally getting at you. How does she take an interest?? 
I know quite a few Pet owners who do not even know the height their dog should be let alone conformation, health etc... But hey they want to breed as their dog is a good example !!!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I think people are taking what i have said way out of context...Not once did i say people that dont show or work there dogs are irresposible or bad breeders..All i said was i didnt agree with it because I couldnt see the reasons behind it..We know people that show there dogs breed to keep there line going and to keep a pup..we know people that work there dogs breed to keep a pup to work and to keep there working blood lines going....
> 
> I just dont understand why people breed as a hobby..Just doesnt make sense to me..
> BUT that doesnt mean i think people that do do it and do it well and repsonsibly are bad or irresposible breeders and not once in any of my posts did i say that.and i can see that any one else did either!


Purely for the love of the breed and their own breed line


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

rona said:


> Purely for the love of the breed and their own breed line


Breed line for what though!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think with some breeds it is more clear cut, as there are obviously good, and obviously bad examples. But with the breeds where there's a split between working and showing, so a much more diverse genetic pool, it can't be as clear cut, the pet breeder will more than likely be in the middle, and there will be those who are responsible about it, and obviously those who aren't. 

Whether you show, work, or don't do anything with your dog, it's all about the attitude you approach breeding with. You could, theoretically, own the best example of, or producer, within a breed, but not 'do' anything with them, except breed; hopefully responsibly, but unfortunately that isn't always the case.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

EmzieAngel said:


> I don't see too much of a problem.
> Some people's pet dogs may actually come from really good lines, not everyone wants a dog to show or work it.
> And just because it's a pet does not mean the person doesn't know much about the breed. She may have done all her research just like responsible breeders.
> And why if you're a pet breeder does it mean you are not experienced?


A lot of good lined pets are from responsible breeders imo and the dog/ bitch would be endorsed.
To add on to Davehyde post Co efficiency in breeding is the big thing at the moment and I am sure a lot of Pet Breeders do not use this


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Breed line for what though!


Why does it have to be for anything?
As long as the pups are good solid healthy pups.
I really can't get my head around why dogs have to be possessions to be used, mine above all else are my friend.
She is producing friends for people


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Can I ask you Rona What makes you think this ladies Labs are not the greatest looking??


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

What so people that show and breed..only have there dogs as "possessions"....

Im just curiouse as to why some one breeds as a hobby just for the sake of it really..

Its something i have never understood i dont know why and until i understand it my views wont change i guess!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I think people are taking what i have said way out of context...Not once did i say people that dont show or work there dogs are irresposible or bad breeders..All i said was i didnt agree with it because I couldnt see the reasons behind it..We know people that show there dogs breed to keep there line going and to keep a pup..we know people that work there dogs breed to keep a pup to work and to keep there working blood lines going....
> 
> I just dont understand why people breed as a hobby..Just doesnt make sense to me..
> BUT that doesnt mean i think people that do do it and do it well and repsonsibly are bad or irresposible breeders and not once in any of my posts did i say that.and i can't see that any one else did either!


I for one would want to keep a puppy from my bitch when the time comes if it ever does lol!!

Its costs a small fortune to get a puppy from the UK. I have to go over to view them at least once. Then the money to buy the pup. Then cost to go over to collect my puppy and get back Money for all those flights/boats and then the animal transport costs. And thats just aquiring the pup!!!
Let alone the health tests and stud fee's!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

clueless said:


> Can I ask you Rona What makes you think this ladies Labs are not the greatest looking??


They are what I would describe as very small and their heads seem a little domed for my liking.
I am by no means a good judge of Labs, they are not and have never have been a breed that I have taken an interest in


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> What so people that show and breed..only have there dogs as "possessions"....
> 
> Im just curiouse as to why some one breeds as a hobby just for the sake of it really..
> 
> Its something i have never understood i dont know why and until i understand it my views wont change i guess!


So explain how people become good breeders?
She has a passion, just like you but is coming from a different angle.
Stop taking things personally :001_tt2:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I will be buying from the UK yes. But if and when the time comes in my life that i could breed dogs i would breed to keep a pup. Rather than going back over to the UK and transport the pup. I know it costs a fortune to breed dogs!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Takes a long time to become a good breeder! Everyone will see different breeders differently what i may class as a good/bad breeder you may class as the complete opposit.
But imo it would be by having a good mentor by that i mean some one that has been in the breed a long long time some one that has studied them for years and knows the good and bad about the breed..They would have to be some one that knows there is bad and works along side others to correct it instead of refusing to see bad and only seeing the good!

Also following the KC and breed clubs code of ethics!!! and having all relevent health tests done and of course only breeding from the best of the best!

Having in the best bred dogs you can get your hands on and dogs that will compliment the bad in the dog being mated!

As well as knowing your dogs pedigree's inside out..knowing where they come from.ect..

Finding the best possible homes for the off spring and making sure they will get a futhur they deserve..
imo ALL breeders should do contracts...stating that the puppies are not to be breed from and if anything goes wrong the puppy is to return to the breeder..

I defentily didnt take your comment personally!


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Also following the KC code of ethics!!! !


Sorry but i have a issue with KC ethics...........with Boxers A White Boxer can be registered with the Kennel Club. However, they can not been shown in the show ring,................which is basicly saying pay us your money and you can breed from a white boxer. (Yes i know theres no proof etc that white boxers have any more health issues than coloured, but many many moons ago the white was concidered a breed fault and top breeders would pts)............ Totally wrong in my view and i havent / wont register any white pups

*just my opinion of course*


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Sorry but i know nothing about boxers as a breed regarding the breeding and showing of them!  But thanks for your in put on it


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

wooliewoo said:


> Sorry but i have a issue with KC ethics...........with Boxers A White Boxer can be registered with the Kennel Club. However, they can not been shown in the show ring,................which is basicly saying pay us your money and you can breed from a white boxer. (Yes i know theres no proof etc that white boxers have any more health issues than coloured, but many many moons ago the white was concidered a breed fault and top breeders would pts)............ Totally wrong in my view and i havent / wont register any white pups
> 
> *just my opinion of course*


My OH's dad has a white boxer called Fudge and he's gorgeous :yesnod:

And my best friend has a brindle/white boxer called Bruno who is completely mad lol 

This is Bruno;


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Takes a long time to become a good breeder! Everyone will see different breeders differently what i may class as a good/bad breeder you may class as the complete opposit.
> But imo it would be by having a good mentor by that i mean some one that has been in the breed a long long time some one that has studied them for years and knows the good and bad about the breed..They would have to be some one that knows there is bad and works along side others to correct it instead of refusing to see bad and only seeing the good!
> 
> Also following the KC and breed clubs code of ethics!!! and having all relevent health tests done and of course only breeding from the best of the best!
> ...


Would i not be a good breeder if i did everything perfectly, all pups had the best homes and if anything i would have them back. If i couldn't find homes for them after that they would stay with me.

Would i not be a good breeder??


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

lol..........sorry but you know what its like you get caught up in your own views and just start typeing:idea:

I agree with the point about a good breeder will look at pups without tinted glasses and see whats good and whats average (wont say bad as all dogs have potential to become fantastic pets) and im hopeing my Stud dog owner falls into that class as she has the expertise that i dont


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Would i not be a good breeder if i did everything perfectly, all pups had the best homes and if anything i would have them back. If i couldn't find homes for them after that they would stay with me.
> 
> Would i not be a good breeder??


what i have already said in the above post is what I belive to make a good breeder thats MY views....
Its isnt just about finding them good homes and taking them back!

Would you get your bitch from health tested parents that were as close to the standard of the breed as you could get as well as being health in mind and body..With great tempermants.

Will you research the breed till you know them in side out.!? and be able to see the bad in the breed and your dogs not just the good!?

Will you research the bitches perdigree and find the best stud dog you could find that woul tie in with her lines as well as compliment her!?

Will you have some one to mentor you that has been in the breed along time.!?

Will you do all the releveant helth tests!? and not breed from any dogs that come back with poor scores!?

Will your puppies leave with contracts stating they can not be breed from!

Will you research and learn about the mating, welping and care of the pups!?

Would you bring your puppies up to be well balanced puppies..with great tempermants!?

If any of them are a NO then sorry but i wouldnt agree with it!

And just so you all know i think EVERY breeder should do the above weather they are hobby breeders, breed for show or breed to work there dogs!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

rona said:


> They are what I would describe as very small and their heads seem a little domed for my liking.
> I am by no means a good judge of Labs, they are not and have never have been a breed that I have taken an interest in


So going by your description as in faults you have noticed Why do you think this lady is a good breeder as domed head is wrong is it not?? IMO If someone else can see a domed head and a dog who does not look good maybe the lady is what is known as kennel blind.
Does the Older Bitch and younger one look similiar??


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> what i have already said in the above post is what I belive to make a good breeder thats MY views....
> Its isnt just about finding them good homes and taking them back!
> 
> Would you get your bitch from health tested parents that were as close to the standard of the breed as you could get as well as being health in mind and body..With great tempermants.
> ...


I think i have answered some of these already but i will do again!!!

I have spent god knows how long researching and re-researching just to find a puppy (purely pet) that would fit my lifestyle!! Of course i would research the breed i would ever breed from.
I would also never breed any breed that didn't have many many people wanting them over here. Let me elaborate.................i would research as to what breed people would like to own if puppies were available here. If they do not match the breeds that i would own then my part in breeding would never ever happen!

And yes i do see the bad in the breed as well as good! I can see it in the ESS that i have at the moment. And with all the dogs that i would to own i can see all the bad in them too! I know the health tests to test for and i know the scores that deem a dog a-ok to breed from. But i am upping my studies further to find out more. And all this to say i am not even looking at breeding for many many years!!!

If and when i choose to breed my bitch would have come from a very reputable breeder (as any puppy/dog i buy) with an outstanding pedigree, health tested ancestors, and obviously superb temprements!

The stud dog will be the most suitable for my bitch and i would research and want proof of his suitability/test results of him and ancestors, i would speak to people who have used him for their bitch.

I would find out everything i had to about breeding/whelping/raising puppies. Every detail from conception to pups going home.
And yes all the bad things that can happen and what to do in the situations. What to look for if there was any problem and what i would need to have.

Of course i would never breed from a dog that health tests came back with less than good results 

Yes my pups would go with contracts stating not to breed and yes i would follow it up. I would keep in contact with my pups new owners too. They would go with puppy packs, free insurance for 6 weeks etc

My puppies would be very well socialised in every way before they went to their new homes. And they would have nothing but perfect temprements. If i had a puppy that wasn't all that friendly for any reason i wouldn't look for any new home until i had assessed and then trained with him. And any new owner would know all of his/her history.

The only thing i won't have is my mentor in person, well it all depends what breed i had that i allowed to have the litter!

I think i have answered every question!! I have typed for so long my finger nails hurt  lol!!!!! xxx


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I think i have answered some of these already but i will do again!!!
> 
> I have spent god knows how long researching and re-researching just to find a puppy (purely pet) that would fit my lifestyle!! Of course i would research the breed i would ever breed from.
> I would also never breed any breed that didn't have many many people wanting them over here. Let me elaborate.................i would research as to what breed people would like to own if puppies were available here. If they do not match the breeds that i would own then my part in breeding would never ever happen!
> ...


I dont really have anything else to pick at with the rest it sounds very sensible to me ..Thank you for your reply!

Would you keep a puppy? If you are not breeding because you have been taken in by one breed in particular then will you only be breeding down to what breed people in your area are after
kerry


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I dont really have anything else to pick at with the rest it sounds very sensible to me ..Thank you for your reply!
> 
> Would you keep a puppy? If you are not breeding because you have been taken in by one breed in particular then will you only be breeding down to what breed people in your area are after
> kerry


Yes i would only ever breed because i wanted a puppy!

I would not be breeding because what people wanted  i have been researching for so so long to try and find a breed that i love and that would fit 100% in with my lifestyle. So once i found that breed then that would be the breed i would have a litter from.
What i meant is i would research what breed people would like to own (hoping that my breed would come up on many peoples list) and that they have done the research as i have done. Only then would i breed my bitch, knowing that my bitch's pups would have the homes they deserved. If i couldn't find enough people wanting my breed then i wouldn't breed.

I would not go out and research what people wanted then go and get the breed that came out on most people's list and breed from her. Sorry i didn't make myself clear!!  I apologise its been a long day lol!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Yes i would only ever breed because i wanted a puppy!
> 
> I would not be breeding because what people wanted  i have been researching for so so long to try and find a breed that i love and that would fit 100% in with my lifestyle. So once i found that breed then that would be the breed i would have a litter from.
> What i meant is i would research what breed people would like to own (hoping that my breed would come up on many peoples list) and that they have done the research as i have done. Only then would i breed my bitch, knowing that my bitch's pups would have the homes they deserved. If i couldn't find enough people wanting my breed then i wouldn't breed.
> ...


Sorry i took that all wrong.! LOL..I thought you ment you would breed what other people wanted. ha


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Sorry i took that all wrong.! LOL..I thought you ment you would breed what other people wanted. ha


Lol!! Your forgiven   No i would never do that! If people didn't want ''my'' breed then i would never have a litter.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Yes my pups would go with contracts stating not to breed and yes i would follow it up.


Okay so for people who are stating dogs do not need to be shown or worked to breed. Why would you feel you wanted the contract to state not to breed???? If it went to a pet home and a lot are in agreement of pet breeding Why this


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

clueless said:


> Okay so for people who are stating dogs do not need to be shown or worked to breed. Why would you feel you wanted the contract to state not to breed????


Because i feel that anyone who wants to breed should put the amount of time, dedication and money into it as i would have!!

I do not breed so i guess this is something i would need to study much more. My chosen breeds are Giant breeds, so i would not want people to start breeding too many of these breeds because we only have a population of around 62 thousand!!!! And there wouldn't be 1000's of these people wanting a giant breed.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Because i feel that anyone who wants to breed should put the amount of time, dedication and money into it as i would have!!


But how do you know they would not?? It would still be their pet and if going by what Rona's first post states why do you think they should be snipped


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Because i feel that anyone who wants to breed should put the amount of time, dedication and money into it as i would have!!
> 
> how do you know they will not
> so you as a pet person will breed a litter
> but will endorse your pups?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

clueless said:


> But how do you know they would not?? It would still be their pet and if going by what Rona's first post states why do you think they should be snipped


As i have said my breed would be a giant breed and would not want to many bred over here. We would not have so many wanting these breeds.

I would have done my research as to whether people would want them. And could offer them a great home.

If someone else wishes to breed then in my opinion they should do the same research to find out if there still is enough people wanting them that could offer super homes.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> As i have said my breed would be a giant breed and would not want to many bred over here. We would not have so many wanting these breeds.
> 
> I would have done my research as to whether people would want them. And could offer them a great home.
> 
> If someone else wishes to breed then in my opinion they should do the same research to find out if there still is enough people wanting them that could offer super homes.


i know breeders who have 30 years experiance behind them, well known breeders with puppies booked,have a litter, wanting one to show and people have had to drop out because of various reasons, credit crunch, losed job etc 
and have been left with 5/6 puppies at 6 months.
how can you research whether people want them?
people book pups then often have a change of mind, for various reasons


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Rona, I have to give it to you, you've started one hell of a debate here lol 

Just to let you all know how bad pet breeders are, I bought my first dog from a pet breeder and he was bought as a pet nearly 4 years ago after quite a bit of research into the breed. Recently I started showing him at the grand old age of 3 and half years. To date, he's done just 3 shows and been placed each time so he can't be that bad.

This is the result from this weekend :001_tt2:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-photo-galleries/52821-third-time-lucky.html


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

majortom said:


> i know breeders who have 30 years experiance behind them, well known breeders with puppies booked,have a litter, wanting one to show and people have had to drop out because of various reasons, credit crunch, losed job etc
> and have been left with 5/6 puppies at 6 months.
> how can you research whether people want them?
> people book pups then often have a change of mind, for various reasons


Where i live we don't have that many breeders. Not breeders of giant breeds anyway. I do not know of any. I will do research and make sure i have more people wanting this breed than my bitch could ever have puppies. Double the pups at least. I know people drop out for many reasons which is why i would never breed unless i could care for the litter by myself. But i would never ever breed any dog if there wasn't suffiecent demand for them.

But if people drop out and just say i have no one else on my list then i have already said i will keep all the pups that are left or are returned to me for any reason at any stage in their life.

But it would be highly unlikely that every single person would drop out!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

shazalhasa said:


> Rona, I have to give it to you, you've started one hell of a debate here lol
> 
> Just to let you all know how bad pet breeders are, I bought my first dog from a pet breeder and he was bought as a pet nearly 4 years ago after quite a bit of research into the breed. Recently I started showing him at the grand old age of 3 and half years. To date, he's done just 3 shows and been placed each time so he can't be that bad.
> 
> ...


Exactly, just because the breeders do not show does not mean their dogs/puppies can not be!!

They might have absolute stunning dogs that could be shown but maybe they are not interested in showing!!!

Glad your boy has done so well!! xx


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Where i live we don't have that many breeders. Not breeders of giant breeds anyway. I will do research and make sure i have more people wanting this breed than my bitch could ever have puppies. Double the pups at least. I know people drop out for many reasons which is why i would never breed unless i could care for the litter by myself.
> 
> But if people drop out and just say i have no one else on my list then i have already said i will keep all the pups that are left or are returned to me for any reason at any stage in their life.
> 
> But it would be highly unlikely that every single person would drop out!


 the breeder i mentioned could have sold the puppies 10 times over, 
especially the bitches
she had a lot of inquires wanting a bitch to breed or a dog to stud
she could not believe the idiots who rang her

and some of the lies people tell you are unbelivable
so she kept them longer rather than let them go to idiots

and even endorsing a dog does not stop people breeding
people will buy unregistered pups


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

majortom said:


> the breeder i mentioned could have sold the puppies 10 times over,
> especially the bitches
> she had a lot of inquires wanting a bitch to breed or a dog to stud
> she could not believe the idiots who rang her
> ...


I understand that. But here is so small people know people! Its annoying most of the time but not when it comes to ''references'' I.E for looking for homes for pups! I might not know them in the slightest but i could ask my friends dad, who will ask his workmate, who will ask their daughter, who will ask their friends mum's etc etc!!
Regardless, if any of my pups new owners dropped out or even got returned they would always have a home with me.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shazalhasa said:


> Rona, I have to give it to you, you've started one hell of a debate here lol
> 
> Just to let you all know how bad pet breeders are, I bought my first dog from a pet breeder and he was bought as a pet nearly 4 years ago after quite a bit of research into the breed. Recently I started showing him at the grand old age of 3 and half years. To date, he's done just 3 shows and been placed each time so he can't be that bad.
> 
> ...


Can I ask hiow many of your breed was entered??


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Takes a long time to become a good breeder! Everyone will see different breeders differently what i may class as a good/bad breeder you may class as the complete opposit.
> But imo it would be by having a good mentor by that i mean some one that has been in the breed a long long time some one that has studied them for years and knows the good and bad about the breed..They would have to be some one that knows there is bad and works along side others to correct it instead of refusing to see bad and only seeing the good!


Ok, I only used this lady as an example, I don't wholeheartedly agree that she should be breeding but have held her up as an example of the effort that some pet breeders go to to produce healthy puppies. 
Some will be better than her and a lot will be worse.
She had bought a dog prior to the bitch she used, but found out by studying it's breedline that there may have been a problem 2 generations back, so had the dog neutered. I wouldn't call her a person that only saw good.



clueless said:


> So going by your description as in faults you have noticed Why do you think this lady is a good breeder as domed head is wrong is it not?? IMO If someone else can see a domed head and a dog who does not look good maybe the lady is what is known as kennel blind.
> Does the Older Bitch and younger one look similiar??


Answered most of this above.
The older bitch which is the one she breed from is the better of the two, so something went wrong with her choice of stud dog.
As said I am only holding her as the main focus for a discussion, not that I agree that she should breed.
Having said that, I do believe that with planning and research, you can get very good pet breeders. May be few and far between but they are out there.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

clueless said:


> Can I ask hiow many of your breed was entered??


There were 5 in his class and they were all very good and well known dogs, in fact the one that came 2nd went on to win Best Pup in Group and the one that came last (unplaced) was Wales Limited Shows Best Dog of the Year in 2008.
So basically, my little 'pet bred' dog did very well :001_tt2:


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> Rona, I have to give it to you, you've started one hell of a debate here lol
> 
> Just to let you all know how bad pet breeders are, I bought my first dog from a pet breeder and he was bought as a pet nearly 4 years ago after quite a bit of research into the breed. Recently I started showing him at the grand old age of 3 and half years. To date, he's done just 3 shows and been placed each time so he can't be that bad.
> 
> ...


Firstly congratulations and well done to your boy......

I have to say after reading threads and speaking to members i would have serious concerns about buying any pup from a so called "good" breeder.......i think anyone that seems more concerned about meeting the kc standards and showing their dogs....instead of the health of their dog leaves a lot to be desired for........it has been proven with many breeds the breed clubs and the kc have made a complete of some breeds......some of the breeds are in a totally mess......deformed.....unhealthy dogs......surely to god this is cruel and should not be allowed..........who do the bl**dy breed clubs think they are.....and all for what.... 

To me what is more important is a healthy dog......i dont need any kc telling me my dog is the right size etc......


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i find if someone says the word pet breeder than people picture someone who just throws their pets regardless of their health and pedigree and suitability together only to produce some pups, and i dont deny there are those but imo they are classed as byb (as those usually dont use show dogs either)

Its a shame because there are those which have the best interest of the breed in mind and do or try to do things the right way and just being labelled as "pet breeder" in a not so nice way (if u all know what i mean lol)

I can say for sure there are plenty of byb and moneygrabbing selfish people in the show ring getting credit for putting the effort into showing there dog and those who do everything right (health tests, temperament etc etc) get no to little respect from the breeding world. Its a shame as showing the way it is now or overall is not really everyones cup of tea and just to judge the whole breeding process and motivation on this one part is not really fair nor right imo and i made the experience that this judgement often comes from actuall show people rather than anyone else..... (its like they feel like "pet breeders" put down their importancy of showing, which showing is really only an idividuall aspect rather than everyones view).... (i hope that makes sense lol)


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shazalhasa said:


> There were 5 in his class and they were all very good and well known dogs, in fact the one that came 2nd went on to win Best Pup in Group and the one that came last (unplaced) was Wales Limited Shows Best Dog of the Year in 2008.
> So basically, my little 'pet bred' dog did very well :001_tt2:


I feel there was no need to use the stick out tongue smilie lol. I was asking as I used to show an Apso and have noticed numbers dwindling at Open shows and a lot more in AV classes rather than Breed classes


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

animallover111 said:


> Firstly congratulations and well done to your boy......
> 
> I have to say after reading threads and speaking to members i would have serious concerns about buying any pup from a so called "good" breeder.......i think anyone that seems more concerned about meeting the kc standards and showing their dogs....instead of the health of their dog leaves a lot to be desired for........it has been proven with many breeds the breed clubs and the kc have made a complete of some breeds......some of the breeds are in a totally mess......deformed.....unhealthy dogs......surely to god this is cruel and should not be allowed..........who do the bl**dy breed clubs think they are.....and all for what....
> 
> To me what is more important is a healthy dog......i dont need any kc telling me my dog is the right size etc......


Rather sweeping statement imo re shows and health!!!!!! Good and Bad everywhere in the Dog World imo. Me personally would rather buy from a Breeder who knows the breed inside and out not one who does not even know what the Breed should look like apart from have a head and 4 legs


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

clueless said:


> Rather sweeping statement imo re shows and health!!!!!! Good and Bad everywhere in the Dog World imo. Me personally would rather buy from a Breeder who knows the breed inside and out not one who does not even know what the Breed should look like apart from have a head and 4 legs


But who is to say what the breed should look like?? the breed clubs/kc?? the same breed clubs and kc that are setting the standards so ridiculous that breeds are now suffering....ie deformed dogs and unhealthy dogs...........


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

I think all of this can be solved by answering what makes a good breeder!

IMHO this is what i would want if i was buying a pedigree dog

1- Breeder has owned and had experience with the breed for a number of years
2 - all dogs have all (and pass well) the available health tests for that particular breed
3 - breeder has taken plenty of time to research lines before choosing stud
4 - all dogs have exemplory temperaments
5 - pups are reared in the home, are well handled and are well socialised
6 - sire and dam are preferably shown/worked or if not have been assessed by a 3rd party with working/judging experience that they are good quality specimines of the breed
6 - bitch is not overbred
7 - breeder offers a lifetime of support and guidance, and would take pup back should anything go wrong
8 - breeder questions me and maybe even visits my home
9 - all pups are registered
10 - breeder is a member of the breed club and adheres by their rules (usually more stringent than just the KC)
11- breeder is as concerned about the welfare of her dogs, the pups she produces and the homes they will go to, as i am about her as a breeder.
12 - i have an instant rapport with the breeder, and have that x factor meaning i feel i could trust them
13 - breeder only breeds one or maybe two breeds
14 - all her dogs live in the home
15 - all dogs are fed good quality diets (not chum or bakers)
16 - home is clean
17 - all dogs appear happy and healthy
18 - puppies have all the relevant medical attention (tests, worming, flea etc)



If i couldnt answer yes to all of these then i wouldnt buy a pup from them. Can the pet breeder in question answer yes to them ALL? if not she shouldnt breed.




With regards to certain breeds having serious problems, yes i agree, and things need to be done seriously to redress the situation, however that does not make every breeder of those breeds a bad breeder, just like it doesnt make every owner of those breeds a bad owner. There are good and bad in every section. There will be terrible breeders who seem to win everything, there will be corrupt judges, there will be bad pet breeders and there will be the abhorrent puppy farms. There is also the good sides too - lets not forget it. A good breeder to me is as above - regardless of what walk they come from.


edit: The only way changes to anything can be made is by education! If the public were properly educated, stopped using puppy farms and byb, stopped buying from unscrupulous show breeders etc then the problems would diminish dramatically.


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> But who is to say what the breed should look like?? the breed clubs/kc?? the same breed clubs and kc that are setting the standards so ridiculous that breeds are now suffering....ie deformed dogs and unhealthy dogs...........


really
neither of my breeds are deformed or unhealthy
so if the breed clubs or the KC don,t know the standards
who does
the pet breeder?
most of the dogs bred by the pet breeder i see
are that pet breeding, 
most of the rescue cases that come into the breed rescues are from pet breeders .
i know where i would rather buy a puppy from


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

majortom said:


> really
> neither of my breeds are deformed or unhealthy
> so if the breed clubs or the KC don,t know the standards
> who does
> ...


yes there are breeds that are unhealthy..thats why the kc change the standards...look at the thread on gsd's perfect example how the breed clubs and kc have messed up this breed.......
there are many other breeds with health problems and very serious health problems......
i didnt say all breeds have problems.....your breed may not have lots of health issues......but some breeds do......


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

majortom said:


> really
> neither of my breeds are deformed or unhealthy
> so if the breed clubs or the KC don,t know the standards
> who does
> ...


i also think it depends on what you call a pet breeder...to me a pet breeder is someone who has all health checks done etc not just any tom,dick or harry that puts two dogs together...i think you will find most of the dogs in rescue are dogs that have been bred by just anyone no health checks etc......


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I think all of this can be solved by answering what makes a good breeder!
> 
> IMHO this is what i would want if i was buying a pedigree dog
> 
> ...


Great post sal!


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I think all of this can be solved by answering what makes a good breeder!
> 
> IMHO this is what i would want if i was buying a pedigree dog
> 
> ...


given you rep....good post......


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I think all of this can be solved by answering what makes a good breeder!
> 
> IMHO this is what i would want if i was buying a pedigree dog
> 
> ...


great post
trouble is so many of the people looking for puppies ,just jump in
and buy from the first litter they see


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

i never showed candy and she doesn't work but i breed her to IMPROVE her breed which i did i got a better spotted dog from her pups with temps just as good is not better than candy's

The stud i chose was not very spotty at all rather to little spots IMO but IMO candy has slightly to many so this is why i chose her stud. t gave me a better spotted line with less spots than candy bt more than the stud they all were pretty well spotted IMO.

I had a couple i would say were show looking when they left but i can not say theyw ould do well or may Champians. there was one girl that i would of even used as a breeding bitch. Had things gone well with my issue with candys paperwork

For people that has no idea on the breed of candy she is a Dalmatian.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

candysmum said:


> there was one girl that i would of even used as a breeding bitch.


How can you make such a statement when they are still puppies ?

I really don't understand how breeders can say that an 8 week old puppy will be suitable to be a stud or breed bitch.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> How can you make such a statement when they are still puppies ?
> 
> I really don't understand how breeders can say that an 8 week old puppy will be suitable to be a stud or breed bitch.


I couldnt agree more..So many things go wrong from 8weeks..People that have been in a breed for years and years still would'nt be able to say a dog is show quality let alone good enough to be breed from!!
imo that is the funniest statment i have heard so far through out this thread!


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> How can you make such a statement when they are still puppies ?
> 
> I really don't understand how breeders can say that an 8 week old puppy will be suitable to be a stud or breed bitch.


you cant .
you pick out the one you hope will turn out the pick
then just wait and pray,lol


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

majortom said:


> you cant .
> you pick out the one you hope will turn out the pick
> then just wait and pray,lol


When we are picking out a pupsters from a littler we dont think about breeding them!   That comes years down the lines and only IF they are what WE belive to be a nice example of the breed...Although yes we do have in mind about showing a pup..but still at 8weeks you cant say that its going to be good enough!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I couldnt agree more..So many things go wrong from 8weeks..People that have been in a breed for years and years still would'nt be able to say a dog is show quality let alone good enough to be breed from!!
> imo that is the funniest statment i have heard so far through out this thread!


I agree

I assume though that anyone buying a potential show/breeding/working dog would pick one based not only on the pedigree and lines but on the early promising traits/looks the pup is showing?

The hope being that the pup continues to develope in the same way and passes all the relevent health tests and does well in the ring it would be suitable for breeding. I know it doesnt often work out like that though!


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> When we are picking out a pupsters from a littler we dont think about breeding them!   That comes years down the lines and only IF they are what WE belive to be a nice example of the breed...Although yes we do have in mind about showing a pup..but still at 8weeks you cant say that its going to be good enough!


 i agree
they change in so many ways
nobody can guarantee a 8 week pup as show quality


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Wow - the debate is still going  



> the same breed clubs and kc that are setting the standards so ridiculous that breeds are now suffering....ie deformed dogs and unhealthy dogs...........


The above comes up so often, can I just point out that in spite of all the recent publicity it is only a very very few breeds that have health problems due to exaggerations. The vast majority of breeds that show are very healthy, and usually far healthier than their pet counterparts.

And that's from someone who doesn't show, has no interest in showing and is not a fan of the show version of her breed .


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Wow - the debate is still going
> 
> The above comes up so often, can I just point out that in spite of all the recent publicity it is only a very very few breeds that have health problems due to exaggerations. *The vast majority of breeds that show are very healthy, and usually far healthier than their pet counterparts. *
> 
> And that's from someone who doesn't show, has no interest in showing and is not a fan of the show version of her breed .


is this based on facts (if so where from) or is this an opinion?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

candysmum said:


> i never showed candy and she doesn't work but i breed her to IMPROVE her breed which i did i got a better spotted dog from her pups with temps just as good is not better than candy's


But didn't you also breed a few pups with problems,you had a few which were deaf and one with an eye condition,to improve on a breed all aspects need to be taken in to account not just looks,conformation,health,temperament,quality,the whole package needs to be bred for.Overall I don't think if I'm honest you can claim to improve a breed when you have bred pups with issue's.

I certainly wouldn't be breeding from any dogs in this litter.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted by candysmum
> i never showed candy and she doesn't work but i breed her to IMPROVE her breed which i did i got a better spotted dog from her pups with temps just as good is not better than candy's


Unfortunately, you wouldn't have been able to show her, she wasn't kc registered, which, means also that you can't really contribute to improving the breed.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

> How can you make such a statement when they are still puppies ?
> 
> I really don't understand how breeders can say that an 8 week old puppy will be suitable to be a stud or breed bitch.





> *Wow - the debate is still going  *
> 
> The above comes up so often, can I just point out that in spite of all the recent publicity it is only a very very few breeds that have health problems due to exaggerations. The vast majority of breeds that show are very healthy, and usually far healthier than their pet counterparts.
> 
> And that's from someone who doesn't show, has no interest in showing and is not a fan of the show version of her breed .





> But didn't you also breed a few pups with problems,you had a few which were deaf and one with an eye condition,to improve on a breed all aspects need to be taken in to account not just looks,conformation,health,temperament,quality,the whole package needs to be bred for.Overall I don't think if I'm honest you can claim to improve a breed when you have bred pups with issue's.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't be breeding from any dogs in this litter.





> Unfortunately, you wouldn't have been able to show her, she wasn't kc registered, which, means also that you can't really contribute to improving the breed.


*Shocking isnt it!  But its been a good read i'll give Rona that! *

All the posts above are brillinat..and i agree 100%...Sorry out of rep though


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

The whole point


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

natik said:


> is this based on facts (if so where from) or is this an opinion?


I agree, by the way all pedigree breeding animals are bred, selection of certain traits (and not necessarily for health) and inbreeding/linebreeding, then the concentration of health issues is bound to happen no matter what the breed.
Some breeds are noticeably affected with structural abnormalities but in others it is more subtle.

To say that breed x is unhealthy but breed y is super healthy is perhaps not entirely true.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

If someone didn't show or work their dog then why would they need them evaluated by a judge or the like???

Say an independent few people were working together with their dogs who passed every single health test with flying colours but yet didn't stick the breed standard rules???

Say for instance breeding out the over dramatic look of the Bulldog?? The orginal GSD with a square back and great hips and movement?? The Basset hound that could actually spend a whole day doing what they were originally bred for?? etc

Then who would be healthier??

Great post Rona, but i have said my peice and read everyone else's input, and if i ever bred a litter then i will stick by what i have said. I'm out!!


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

i mentioned form and function earlier they should go hand in hand.

and if anyone breeding doesnt know what it means they have no business breeding dogs imho.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

davehyde said:


> i mentioned form and function earlier they should go hand in hand.
> 
> and if anyone breeding doesnt know what it means they have no business breeding dogs imho.


Dave, does it please you to use obscure terms and belittle anyone that doesnt know what you are on about.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Dave, does it please you to use obscure terms and belittle anyone that doesnt know what you are on about.


I was just about to ask what he meant


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> If someone didn't show or work their dog then why would they need them evaluated by a judge or the like???
> 
> Say an independent few people were working together with their dogs who passed every single health test with flying colours but yet didn't stick the breed standard rules???
> 
> ...


great post.......you can also add the Sharpei to the breed to.......because of the wrinkles..the breed has no end of skin problems.....most have no end of alergies......skin infections in between the creases of the loose skin.....eye problems because of the wrinkles this causes the eye lids to roll in,kc standards require almond-shaped eyes with frown expression.....yet this leaves the eyes open to infection.......needing surgery,contious infections,often left blind......the kc state very small ears which again leads to ear problems especailly with the ear canal....often needing surgery leaving the dog deaf.....i could go on and on.......im sure there are many other breeds just the same.......


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Dave, does it please you to use obscure terms and belittle anyone that doesnt know what you are on about.





sequeena said:


> I was just about to ask what he meant


its maintaining the look the structure of the breed and so keeping the dogs ability to do the job for which it was bred, this explains it better......

Form and function
Although dog jobs have changed or disappeared and modern humans value dogs more as companions than partners, form and function remain critical to the selection of a healthy puppy that is physically able to meet buyer expectations. For example, a Golden Retriever or English Springer Spaniel with poor shoulder structure may not only lack the stamina to hunt all day, he is unlikely to be able to jog, hike, jump, romp with the kids, or chase a ball for any length of time, particularly as he gets older. An Australian Shepherd or Pembroke Welsh Corgi that will never herd cattle still needs proper structure to compete in agility and obedience events; a Saluki or Greyhound that will never course after antelope or hare still must have the proper front and rear angulation to gallop after the plastic bag on a lure-coursing field.Beyond the need to maintain the original purpose of a chosen breed, we are often in awe of the incredible way that dogs are far more than a sum of their parts. This appreciation of the dog as an animal, an athlete, a protector, an alarm, or simply a creature of great beauty should figure in the search for a breeder as well as a breed, for a knowledge of form and function are part of this picture, too.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> its maintaining the look the structure of the breed and maintaining the dogs ability to do the job for which it was bred, this explains it better......
> 
> Form and function
> Although dog jobs have changed or disappeared and modern humans value dogs more as companions than partners, form and function remain critical to the selection of a healthy puppy that is physically able to meet buyer expectations. For example, a Golden Retriever or English Springer Spaniel with poor shoulder structure may not only lack the stamina to hunt all day, he is unlikely to be able to jog, hike, jump, romp with the kids, or chase a ball for any length of time, particularly as he gets older. An Australian Shepherd or Pembroke Welsh Corgi that will never herd cattle still needs proper structure to compete in agility and obedience events; a Saluki or Greyhound that will never course after antelope or hare still must have the proper front and rear angulation to gallop after the plastic bag on a lure-coursing field.Beyond the need to maintain the original purpose of a chosen breed, we are often in awe of the incredible way that dogs are far more than a sum of their parts. This appreciation of the dog as an animal, an athlete, a protector, an alarm, or simply a creature of great beauty should figure in the search for a breeder as well as a breed, for a knowledge of form and function are part of this picture, too.


Thanks Noush! Will rep you for that :yesnod:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Thanks Noush! Will rep you for that :yesnod:


thankyou very much Missis!! x


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Dave, does it please you to use obscure terms and belittle anyone that doesnt know what you are on about.


ha ha ha , no it just shows that people who insisit they know enough to breed dogs dont really know much at all.

i like to get a point across and if someone doesnt know what it means i will gladly explain, but sometimes it needs to be shown in a different way.

it's not about belittling its about people realising THEIRSELVES that maybe they really dont enough to breed a living creature.

by the way do you always react this way? you only had to google it the same as i do when i find somrthing i dont understand. or is a touch of inferiority, ya gotta disparage summat ya dont understand cos it makes ya feel less of a person for not understanding it?

on the other hand undestanding dogs @ breeding a bit more thoroughly might be better idea.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

oh and by the way, how is form and function an obscure term????

it is a basic term used in dog breeding. 
all i have done is emphasise a lack of knowledge.
use it a reason to learn instead of trying to acheive the moral high ground.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

davehyde said:


> oh and by the way, how is form and function an obscure term????
> 
> it is a basic term used in dog breeding.
> all i have done is emphasise a lack of knowledge.
> use it a reason to learn instead of trying to acheive the moral high ground.


Seeing as I'm not a breeder (and no intentions to become one) I don't think you can really say that I have a lack of knowledge :001_tt2:


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

well if your not breeding why think it applied to you and take umbrage?

as i said 

quote and if anyone breeding doesnt know what it means they have no business breeding dogs imho unquote

there ya go, non breeders not mentioned.

too quick to jump up and squeal.

and i also qualified the statement by the use of in my honest opinion. so get a life people some might need to understand english and grammar first


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

i dont have a problem at all with my opinions being disagreed with and challenged, that is actually good for everyone. a well thought out and lucid counter argument is great.

but an emotional and kneejerk response is a futile attempt.

also this thread was deliberately designed to cause reactions as the OP so kindly pointed out in another thread.

perhaps a cynical thing to do, maybe???

but i see the clique sticking together blindly supporting each other.

open your eyes and ears peeps as i have no intentions of following like a sheep

i am breath of fresh air so just admit it.

different views and ideas, not afraid to speak my mind. 

ya'll may be better off for it when the day is over.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

davehyde said:


> well if your not breeding why think it applied to you and take umbrage?
> 
> as i said
> 
> ...


What are you getting so worked up for, I can comment on anything I like even if it doesn't apply to me  If you don't like that fact then it's really your problem.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

davehyde said:


> also this thread was deliberately designed to cause reactions as the OP so kindly pointed out in another thread.
> 
> .


Wrong I'm afraid, the thread is genuine


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

roflmao i aint worked up, i am loving it.

YOU made this statement

Seeing as I'm not a breeder (and no intentions to become one) I don't think you can really say that I have a lack of knowledge 


assuming i was saying the above.

so how can a statement addressed to the "breeders" even be applied to you?

if i said all men have dirty hair you wouldnt bat an eyelid. cos you aint a man, so why defend yourself from a statement that is much the same?

do they not do debating in schools anymore?


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

davehyde said:


> i dont have a problem at all with my opinions being disagreed with and challenged, that is actually good for everyone. a well thought out and lucid counter argument is great.
> 
> but an emotional and kneejerk response is a futile attempt.
> 
> ...


   
Your post is very wrong........this has been a healthy topic......breeders and none breeders have both posted.....we all have differnet views...and we def dont follow like sheep......i do not breed i never have and never will...the reason for me i would rather rehome rescue dogs....but thats my personnal choice.....i for one have found this thread interesting and even though i do not breed i have learnt lots.........


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

davehyde said:


> roflmao i aint worked up, i am loving it.
> 
> YOU made this statement
> 
> ...


I'm not defending myself just stating a fact  I didn't realise this was a breeders only topic, pardon me for having some free thought


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

billyboysmammy :either you post the threads as a wind up.... or you post the threads hypothetically as you enjoy a good debate.... so which is it rona?


rona: A bit of both

None of my threads are intended to upset anyone, but I do put the odd view point which isn't accurate to my own beliefs to keep the debate going, and sometimes it means winding someone up. 
I am very care who is at the receiving end though, and it is never done with any malice



it may have started off as genuine but the above does not make me think it stayed that way.

or was the other thread a a$$ covering excersise when you seen how this one had panned out? how you contradicted yourself in it?

i gor one dont feel in awe of rona the forum queen.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

i dont know sequeena how you go on about a statement that had no connection to you at all other than the fact you read it.

my mind boggles.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

davehyde said:


> billyboysmammy :either you post the threads as a wind up.... or you post the threads hypothetically as you enjoy a good debate.... so which is it rona?
> 
> rona: A bit of both
> 
> ...


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

davehyde said:


> i dont know sequeena how you go on about a statement that had no connection to you at all other than the fact you read it.
> 
> my mind boggles.


So I'm not allowed to reply to something even if it's not aimed at me? :001_tt2:

My mind boggles how you seem to think you can control what people reply to ut:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

What the hell is it about people throwing their toys out of the pram over stupid little things on this forum?

No one is forced to read anything, no one is forced to reply.

If you dont like it, leave.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

rona said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


I'm glad you find it funny  , or was that another wind up?  ut:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I'm glad you find it funny  , or was that another wind up?  ut:


I fail to see how this thread is a wind up AT ALL.

All it has done is raise some interesting points, and resulted in a debate. Who cares if it reflects the OP's opinions or not.


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

sequeena said:


> So I'm not allowed to reply to something even if it's not aimed at me? :001_tt2:
> 
> My mind boggles how you seem to think you can control what people reply to ut:


mmmmmmmm you obviously dont understand, i never said dont / cant reply.

just dont go on about it as if it was attacking you. it was adressed to the breeders as i said, your'e boring me now like a stuck record.

also why reply to something not aimed at you??????? pointless excercise in a way. unless???????????/.......................


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I fail to see how this thread is a wind up AT ALL.
> 
> All it has done is raise some interesting points, and resulted in a debate. Who cares if it reflects the OP's opinions or not.


I do, its the motive behind the posting not the actual thread or whether it is true or not that i object to, as i said before. I see no point going over old ground.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

davehyde said:


> mmmmmmmm you obviously dont understand, i never said dont / cant reply.
> 
> just dont go on about it as if it was attacking you. it was adressed to the breeders as i said, your'e boring me now like a stuck record.
> 
> also why reply to something not aimed at you??????? pointless excercise in a way. unless???????????/.......................


Mmhmm okay :001_tt2:

Either way this thread has been enjoyable to follow. :smilewinkgrin:


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## davehyde (Jul 13, 2009)

lol, got a lot of reads.

but as serious suggestion

why not have a proper section as a sticky where people can post links to authoritive articles on subjects like breeding, puppies, standards, dog related terms.

then people could look there first and get a proper explanation that somebody with the correct depth of knowledge has written and researched rather than just using opinion to form a valid argument or theory.

with a bit of knowledge they can be a little more sure of what they are espousing.

but as we see all too often in many forums.....

a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

Do you no what im catching up on this and i havent even finished reading it but quite alot of you are acting quite childish..
Just dont reply if you dont like what you read..I tell you the day some think some one says on here gets to me that much is the day i log out and never log back in again!!!!


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Do you not what im catching up on this and i havent even finished reading it but quite alot of you are acting quite childish..
> Just dont reply if you dont like what you read..I tell you the day some think some one says on here gets to me that much is the day i log out and never log back in again!!!!


dont you been logging off and not coming back.......i always need your advice.......


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Do you no what im catching up on this and i havent even finished reading it but quite alot of you are acting quite childish..
> Just dont reply if you dont like what you read..I tell you the day some think some one says on here gets to me that much is the day i log out and never log back in again!!!!


year i agree this thread is just getting stupidut:

i carnt be bothered with it

i will still breed from my pets

at the end of the day its my decision


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

cav said:


> year i agree this thread is just getting stupidut:
> 
> i carnt be bothered with it
> 
> ...


I can't be bothered either..You keep breeding you "nice examples of the breed"  Keep up the good work Cav..


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> dont you been logging off and not coming back.......i always need your advice.......


Im not going any where soon!  Im a hard one to upset..Its just a forum he he


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

cav said:


> i will still breed from my pets
> 
> at the end of the day its my decision


I actually would not class you as a pet breeder,I would class you as a caring knowledgeable breeder who breeds to improve on your dogs,you do all the health testing,know your lines etc....You are much better than what I would class as a "pet" Breeder!


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

I have read the last couple of page and basically just thought - WHY????

We have shared some lovely, special times on here, stayed up with each other over endless nights of whelping, supported each other and even cried with other; recently I might add. Now people seem to be attacking others and being very condescending; I don't understand it 

We all have lots to learn and I would hope we are there to help & educate each other for the benefit of our dogs, in a friendly and supportive way.

Maybe I am niave but I thought this was about enjoying ourselves with others who share our passion for our dogs.

A confused MM


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