# Different perspectives



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

or maybe not..... but, as somone who is a confirmed meat eater, I don't mind the blood and guts that comes with that. I respect the fact that an animal has died, and I try to make the most use from that, including boiling bones for stock, and using every ounce of gristle, fat and skin in dog food as necessary. 

I just wondered, how many people think about how their lifestyle affects different cultures and also animals, do you think about where you buy your food from and try to support local produce. Also, do you think it's acceptable to not be able to handle meat, but eat it? 

I'm interested to hear peoples' views; my personal view about meat is that if you can't handle a dead animal, I can't understand why you're eating it? But that's not to say I believe people who eat meat but can't handle it are all horrible, just that I cannot understand it? Hope that makes sense. It's a bit like I can't understand why they offer to cut off the fish head when you go to a restaurant, it's still a cooked fish, with or without a head. 

Also, do you think about other stuff in your lifestyle, like fixtures, fittings and furnishings, whether they're related to animal produce in some way, or doesn't it cross your mind?

Interested to hear views, possibly a bit of a bitty post, but hope people get what I mean .....


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I just wondered, how many people think about how their lifestyle affects different cultures and also animals, do you think about where you buy your food from and try to support local produce. Also, do you think it's acceptable to not be able to handle meat, but eat it?
> 
> I'm interested to hear peoples' views; my personal view about meat is that if you can't handle a dead animal, I can't understand why you're eating it? But that's not to say I believe people who eat meat but can't handle it are all horrible, just that I cannot understand it? Hope that makes sense. It's a bit like I can't understand why they offer to cut off the fish head when you go to a restaurant, it's still a cooked fish, with or without a head.
> 
> ...


i agree if you cat handle meat then how can you eat??

I have been hunting but anything we caught we skinned and ate (luv rabbit, so delish) and feel better eating a rabbit ive shot than farmed meat as i feel the wee rabbit had a free life 

I also try and buy organic and British only meat, we need to back our farmers imo :thumbup: cuts CO2 emissions etc too

in regaards to furniture etc made of animal parts im undecided. I would rather it was a way of using unedible parts but i watched a documentary about a type of crocodile (India i think it was in?) where the crocs were bred for their skins but every 3 years the croc farm owner released a few hundred to help increase the dwindling population, so their saviour was also potentially their killer??

hhhmmm. . .


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## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

im a vegatian and dont eat meat at all


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

katie200 said:


> im a vegatian and dont eat meat at all


Yes, but do you wonder about how your life impacts on everything else?

-------------------------------------------

I saw a television programme a few years ago, haven't bothered having a tele for years now, and I was sickened by the amount of food that some people throw in the bin. People bought whole roast chickens, took the breast meat off, chucked the rest in the bin. Their average food bill was about £400 per week, and so much of it just got chucked out to go into landfill. When you think about the whole food industry, and the population as a whole, how much we must waste is appalling.

Again, a few years ago, a news report from a family saying they couldn't afford to live on the benefits they were getting, whilst sat on a leather sofa, with surround sound speakers, and when they went to make a cuppa, all their kitchen appliances were stainless steel with brand new cupboards etc in a pale wood with new modern tiles.

Do people expect a level of lifestyle generally, and if they don't get it think they're hard done by?

Places like Argos, B&Q, and Ikea must make a fortune, and yet all the time we are filling up the land with old household wares and furniture. I must admit, I have got a few pieces of new furniture, and I'm not saying we don't need to buy things from time to time, but I think I have more old furniture than new, and I actually prefer it. Having thought about it, there's no way I would buy furniture from many places, the cheapness makes me feel that somewhere, something and someone hasn't had a very good lifestyle to support the bargains we buy, although perhaps in comparison to our economy, what they're paid, and the lifestyle they have is actually quite good, who knows? I'm not prepared to gamble that this is the case without being able to find out for certain.

Are others like me, sat with their old scruffy parker knolls and hand me down tables, and actually liking the history that comes with them, or do you prefer modern styles, and do you think about how the way you live possibly impacts on others?

Bit of a long post, apols for those who've battled through, would be interested to hear thoughts.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

We are a meat eating family and i care about where it comes from. I make sure my kids know what they are eating rather than dress it up in a Disney fashion, chicken is chicken and pork is piggy in my house.

I am happy to handle meat and if i knew that i could do it efficiently would have no problem dispatching my own.

I try an make sure the meat i buy is "happy meat" if that makes sense. I used this company for a few years but haven't been able to since i had my 2nd child but its the first thing i will go back to having when we can afford it

Devon organic meat, beef, lamb, pork and chicken, meat boxes online - Higher Hacknell Organic Farm

It is not local to me but was a time efficient way of buying good quality, happy meat. Their pork is amazing and their chickens have twice as much meat as Tesco ones


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## sunzstan (Sep 14, 2009)

im a vegetarian too

98 percent of my furniture is second hand and all over 12 years old


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I eat meat. I'm perfectly happy handling raw meat. Yes I buy it from my local butcher.

I've never had to kill my own food and won't be able to tell you what I'd do until I'm in that situation. I don't think I should be banned from eating meat if I can't kill the animal myself.

As for lifestyle no it doesn't cross my mind.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Intersting thread.I have often wonderd if i could kill an animal myself and i believe i could and would if i knew how to do it properly.My father use to keep rabbits many moons ago (for food),but he also used the fur to make hats and handwarmers for us girls.He along with my brothers use to go out fishing,or collecting duck eggs.
I get most of my meat from the supermarket and i have to be honest i dont stop and think about how it got there.
As for appliances and furnishings in my home,i only replace when i have to,i'm not one to keep up with the jones's.
*


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

The cannibals call it long pig because its flesh is very similar to that animal.
I kill and eat my own at my convenience but select only the ones that interest me greatly at that time. Everything is utilised including the bones from which I have made my own furnishings. 

Son of Ed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, nice to see we're all different. 

Sequeena, is there any reason why you don't think about the rest of your life, as it were. Is it something you don't like to think about, or just not occurred to you? 

Without picking on you, I do hold the view that if you couldn't actually kill your own animals, then perhaps you ought to think twice about eating them. BUT, because of the way we're brought up to depersonalise food, I realise that this simply isn't possible, and I just wish that it were more part of how we are brought up, so that more people were able to deal with their own food, if that makes sense? 

I think people in general have lost respect for what they eat and how it got on their plate, and understanding how it got there, learning this as a child, I think would help bring back some of the respect we have lost. Many parents though wouldn't be happy with this, because we've been this way for several generations now, and lost that link to the past, personally, I'm saddened by this. 

Janice, I think it's a huge area; the way we live relies on such a lot of cruelty, and it's the sort of thing people don't even think about. There have been posts about hunting and culling recently, which seem easy for people to view either one way or the other, and yet the general way that people live *seems* to me, to be apathetic to how our lifestyle can cause cruelty to animals and humans around the globe. I don't want this to turn into a debate about hunting, culling etc, but am keen to discuss our lives in general supporting cruelty in various forms since it's something that often isn't thought about at all. 

I don't think for one minute that it's easy to disassociate ourselves from this, because it isn't a simple thing to do. We expect to be able to eat what we want, and when we want it, and aren't tied to seasonal produce any more. I don't shop at supermarkets unless it is for something I can't buy locally, I never buy meat from them, mainly cleaning products, and food that smaller shops no longer stock, like wholemeal flour for baking. 

I'm not one to keep up with the Jones's either, I'm not one for having a *look* about how I live, unless you class dusty and slightly worn as a look


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

On the handling meat side of things, I don't think people are particularly hypocrites if they can't handle raw meat - I personally don't like the feel of raw chicken, but do handle it because I have to. It doesn't mean someone doesn't care about where their meat comes from - I'm very pro-local meat and would love to be able to "grow my own" but my allotment won't allow it. Anyway on the touching raw meat thing - I can't, and I mean literally can't, touch a kitchen sponge. On some days I can't even watch someone else use one. I still clean my kitchen lol. I can't touch velvet or dralon either but I suspect there's no ethical impact to that haha. Probably a sign of some mental illness there, but I know others with weirder touch phobias.


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## sunzstan (Sep 14, 2009)

i dont have a problem touching raw meat even though im a vegetarian (my kids eat meat) in fact i quite enjoy marinating a piece of chicken breast


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

I think as I have got older I have become more aware of what I eat and buy..

I buy meat from Morrisons as they only produce british lamb and beef and comply to rspca guidelines with chickens..

I can handle meat, not a problem but I couldn't kill my own.. I think it is they way we are bought up more than anything.. If we have never seen an animal slaughtered and killed, we won't be aclimatised to it as much as someone who has been bought up around animals being killed/skinned etc.. I think if we all had to then we would mostly all get used to having to do it..

as for waste, we have the new food bins. I don't feel as bad throwing away food that's gone bad but I still try to avoid it. I get the rabbits to eat anything I don't think we will get through.. If I buy a whole chicken for tea I'll get as much meat off it as I can and we use it for sarnies etc..

Household items.. I use freegele to give away things I don't need/want anymore... I hate leather full stop!! I am looking to re-pad and re-upholster by battered sofa, make my own blind for the front room etc.. I try not to throw things away, it makes me feel very guilty


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

KathyM said:


> On the handling meat side of things, I don't think people are particularly hypocrites if they can't handle raw meat - I personally don't like the feel of raw chicken, but do handle it because I have to. It doesn't mean someone doesn't care about where their meat comes from - I'm very pro-local meat and would love to be able to "grow my own" but my allotment won't allow it. Anyway on the touching raw meat thing - I can't, and I mean literally can't, touch a kitchen sponge. On some days I can't even watch someone else use one. I still clean my kitchen lol. I can't touch velvet or dralon either but I suspect there's no ethical impact to that haha. Probably a sign of some mental illness there, but I know others with weirder touch phobias.


I heard that it is possible to have over sensitive feeling in your hands.. Think it was on a programme were a kid wouldn't eat or touch almost anything..


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I am a non meat eater (I eat fish - & yes I have caught, killed & ate ones I've caught!) but I don't mind handling meat at all. I don't like the smell of it cooking much (especially lamb) but the meat I buy (for my OH) is usually locally produced (or if not British) free range so at least the animals had a good life. 
I wouldn't expect everyone who ate meat or fish to be able to kill the animal as we are all different but what does annoy me is people who refuse to acknowledge that an animal died for their dinner .... the 'Oh don't tell me, I don't want to know' types or those who waste food.
We don't waste much in our house, I'm far to tightfisted for that! We rarely have any leftovers (we love our food!), if there are & they can't be used for another meal then they get composted, I don't have the heating up too high (we wear jumpers! & if my OH moans then I tell him to do a bit of housework so he moves around a bit more & gets warmer ), we grow alot of our own veg on our allotment which also make you appreciate how much effort went in to what is on your plate.
I can't believe how much some people waste & how much money they must be chucking away by doing so


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

KathyM said:


> On the handling meat side of things, I don't think people are particularly hypocrites if they can't handle raw meat - I personally don't like the feel of raw chicken, but do handle it because I have to. It doesn't mean someone doesn't care about where their meat comes from - I'm very pro-local meat and would love to be able to "grow my own" but my allotment won't allow it. Anyway on the touching raw meat thing - I can't, and I mean literally can't, touch a kitchen sponge. On some days I can't even watch someone else use one. I still clean my kitchen lol. I can't touch velvet or dralon either but I suspect there's no ethical impact to that haha. Probably a sign of some mental illness there, but I know others with weirder touch phobias.


Good point! Not everyone who can't handle raw meat necessarily doesn't care about where their food comes from, it just *seems* to me, that a lot of people who have an aversion to raw meat, don't care particularly care much, as long as they bang it in the oven, or under the grill without touching it.

Kitchen sponge, I don't have one, I use a dishcloth and it's over a year old now, I just keep bleaching it. And I'm chuckling at the velvet/dralon phobia.

I honestly hate supermarkets, I think they are one of the worst things to happen to *society*, everything cheap and for our convenience.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Tink82 said:


> I heard that it is possible to have over sensitive feeling in your hands.. Think it was on a programme were a kid wouldn't eat or touch almost anything..


Yes I heard that too. It's strange as my son is being assessed for mild Aspergers and he feels the same about our sofa (canvasy cover), apparently that's a "symptom". Would explain a lot.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Good point! Not everyone who can't handle raw meat necessarily doesn't care about where their food comes from, it just *seems* to me, that a lot of people who have an aversion to raw meat, don't care particularly care much, as long as they bang it in the oven, or under the grill without touching it.


I think you're right, most people who are squeamish are like you said. I'm not squeamish personally, I eat black pudding and haggis FFS lol, but the slimy chicken makes me want to gavomit.



> Kitchen sponge, I don't have one, I use a dishcloth and it's over a year old now, I just keep bleaching it. And I'm chuckling at the velvet/dralon phobia.


Don't laugh!  My children torture me with sponges. And someone keeps putting one in the kitchen sink - how am I meant to do the bleeding housework then! I have to get the tongs out to shift them, and even then I have a good shiver like when I've dealt with a big spider. :lol:



> I honestly hate supermarkets, I think they are one of the worst things to happen to *society*, everything cheap and for our convenience.


I think they have a hold over us that are skint personally. It's like Virgin telly - you hate how crap they are but can't break out due to the cost. Ethical food is sadly very expensive unless you're lucky enough to be able to grow your own. I can with fruit and veg, but animals I can't do due to restrictions at my allotment. I have a real hankering and have for years to grow my own turkey for Christmas. Can't do it.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I have no problem handling or eating meat but i do prefer to know where its come from. I do occasionally buy supermarket meat but i much prefer my local butchers who can tell you exactly where his meat has come from, and the price difference is negligable!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

We both have been vegetarians for over 20 years now (oh god I am showing my age now ). We try to source our veg as locally and organically as possible. Where we can we buy fairtraded, organic coffees, sugars, teas etc (has anyone else noticed that when it comes to sugar it is often either organic or fairtraded but hardly ever both?).

We feed our cats raw as we believe that is how they would naturally eat. Again that meat is as local and organic as possible. While I couldn't kill an animal myself (though I fished with my dad when I was little and ate what he killed), I don't mind chopping the meat for my cats.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I eat meat but I don't think I am right in doing so. I regularly go off it for a while then come back to it via temptation. I eat it on more days than I don't. I very much doubt I could deal with stripping a carcass raw. I've done cooked chicken before etc but then if the bones started to break I'd probably go off meat for a while.

When on holiday in Northern Cyprus we had lamb shank and I couldn't eat it. There were lambs and goats across the road in the paddocks and it just made me feel sick. I feel a lot happier about the whole thing by buying freedom food when I/we can. I think I can handle meat etc but I really would rather not if I don't have to.

My Mum has been vegetarian for about three years now and she still handles meat, she is more at ease with it than I am  She says she isn't grossed out by it at all, she would just rather not eat meat when it isn't something she believes in but at the same time she will cook and prepare it for us lot.

I suppose if people shouldn't eat meat if they don't like handling it, my Mum shouldn't be classed as vegetarian because she does willingly handle it?


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> I eat meat but I don't think I am right in doing so. I regularly go off it for a while then come back to it via temptation. I eat it on more days than I don't. I very much doubt I could deal with stripping a carcass raw. I've done cooked chicken before etc but then if the bones started to break I'd probably go off meat for a while.
> 
> When on holiday in Northern Cyprus we had lamb shank and I couldn't eat it. There were lambs and goats across the road in the paddocks and it just made me feel sick. I feel a lot happier about the whole thing by buying freedom food when I/we can. I think I can handle meat etc but I really would rather not if I don't have to.
> 
> ...


lambs aren't slaughtered when they are teeny and bouncing about, they are quite big and on the verge of adult-hood. it's when their molars came through I think..


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

If you care about animals then you should care about the conditions your sunday roast was kept in before it hit your table IMO  

We don't have loads of cash to spend on Organic food but i do try and ensure my meat (eg a once living creature) was sensitively reared with a certain degree of attention paid to its welfare.

I buy cheaper cuts, use every last bit and eat less meat in general to ensure i am able to do this on my budget.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Tink82 said:


> lambs aren't slaughtered when they are teeny and bouncing about, they are quite big and on the verge of adult-hood. it's when their molars came through I think..


It was more the principle that their relatives were just across the road playing games in their paddocks and it just made me feel a bit guilty. Its like you can imagine the one I had on my plate was the aunty of the one poking its nose through the wire or something 

I am so easy to push into being a vegetarian but then I succumb to temptation, I am useless like that


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

I am the most hypocritical person......

......Yes I eat meat, Yes I enjoy it. I do try and buy English meat and think of the welfare of the animal...To be honest I don't think that I would be totally happy with surroundings etc of the animals I do eat. It would be great if they were bought up in a Rose Garden.

I would like to buy farm produce from a farm where i could see the way they were reared but cannot afford the prices

Anyhow talking about hypocritical I will not eat rabbit...Why???...because we have always kept rabbits as pets, from young childhood till now and I still even at my old age associate rabbit with being a pet 

Yes hypocritical I know. My brother is vegan and I totally respect that (as is his wife) but I don't think I agree with them bringing up their 2 young children as vegans........once again hypocritical.

Miss hypocriticalgeniality here I know


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I do love a nice bit of meat, whether it be a joint or mince. I try to buy from an organic place about 20 miles away but they're only open for two days a month. So if I miss the date I'm stymied.  I have no problem in handling raw meat with the exception of liver. Theres just something about it that makes me retch.  So I tend to pop it in the freezer for half hr or so before cutting it.  However I have no problem in gutting and cleaning fish. 
I've never had the opportunity to kill my own so this is something I wont do, unless of course I was shown the correct way to do it. Then I'd probably be a bit squemish for the first couple of times worrying if I was doing it as humainly as poss. 

As for the latest must have. Only tend to buy as things need replacing. Hubs mobile is now 5 yrs old. He likes it, it still works, so he dont want it changing.  The dining table is getting wobbily but its still functional, but not sure for how much longer, but I like it so its staying until the end.  Hubs is having a sort out at the office over the weekend and if theres a spare desk that will fit into our small spare bedroom cum office cum sewing room then its coming here instead of us buying a new one. :thumbup:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

deb53 said:


> I am the most hypocritical person......
> 
> ......Yes I eat meat, Yes I enjoy it. I do try and buy English meat and think of the welfare of the animal...To be honest I don't think that I would be totally happy with surroundings etc of the animals I do eat. It would be great if they were bought up in a Rose Garden.
> 
> ...


To be honest it is almost impossible NOT to be a hypocrite when it comes to animal rights/welfare. Very very few people are genuine crusaders, most people pick and chose their causes.

I am careful about my meat but i know that alot of other stuff i use isn't necessarily cruelty free in terms of cosmetics/toiletries etc


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## EffyJiggy (Jul 6, 2010)

Im a veggie, but can handle some types of meat as my family all eat meat appart from me


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I do occasionally buy supermarket meat but i much prefer my local butchers who can tell you exactly where his meat has come from, and the price difference is negligable!


Very true, a lot of people would be amazed at the very little if any difference in price of supermarket and butchers (unless ofcourse theres offers on). But theres a lot of people that have grown up with getting their meat from a supermarket and so feel intimitated going to a butchers. Eldests friend being one of them, god alone knows why, theres nothing a butcher seems to like more than someone they can talk to and teach about the differing cuts etc, and whats the best for the way its going to be cooked.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

deb53 said:


> I am the most hypocritical person......
> 
> ......Yes I eat meat, Yes I enjoy it. I do try and buy English meat and think of the welfare of the animal...To be honest I don't think that I would be totally happy with surroundings etc of the animals I do eat. It would be great if they were bought up in a Rose Garden.
> 
> ...


My OH is a complete carnivore, loves his meat, grew up in the countryside, used to go shooting, not at all sentimental about it all .... except with deer so he won't/can't eat venison!!! I laugh that he has now become a right soft townie!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Nice to see there are a lot of people who do their best about where they buy things. I feel sorry for those who don't have any option but to go somewhere like Tesco's, I wouldn't even buy my petrol from them, and I am quite happy to say I don't know where there is a Tesco's near me since I moved last year, I won't be trying to find out either. 

I can't be bothered to multi quote, so bear with me, Deb53, I'm also a hypocrite, I keep dogs and I wouldn't eat one of those either. I also couldn't bring myself to eat budgies when I had them either, even though their name, comes from the Australian Aboriginal meaning 'good eating'  

I do, however, love the occasional rabbit stew when I have chance to get hold of fresh rabbit. 

Interesting what you say about bringing children up to be vegan or veggie, I was always given complete choice. The only thing I can't eat, never could, is offal, but I don't mind handling it or cooking it, the dogs get it a few times a week, and the OH loves lambs liver. I think that stems back to a nasty Aunty, who bought me pigs kidneys as a treat, and when I couldn't finish them, made me eat them with ice cream, yuck!

Rainybow, you are spot on with your comment, it is nigh impossible to be what you term a genuine crusader, and ensure your lifestyle fits with your beliefs when it comes to animal welfare. 

It's nice to read about a lot of people re-using furniture and making the most of other appliances and *things* in their lives. Is there such a thing as a new mobile, I've always had hand me downs :lol: 

My *newest* piece of furniture is a table, my parents bought it in Hong Kong when I was a nipper, so a long time ago now, it's probably real teak, with a huge engraved brass plate as the top of it, I love it!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I am kitting out our new beach chalet at the moment and it hasn't even entered my head to buy new furniture when there is so much fantastic 2nd hand stuff on e bay at a fraction the cost of new. I have got some amazing bargains so far


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't eat meat or fish - I used to and I loveeeeed it. I can handle raw meat, it doesn't bother me - but I couldn't skin an animal, not something wih fur or eyes and a head - it gives me the shivers lol. I don't eat meat anymore because I felt like I was sugarcoating it you know? I would think oh but it died quickly ect - but in reality death is death. An animal died unnecessarily to fill my belly and I couldn't be okay with that. I think if I could guarantee that the animal lived a happy, free life every single time I ate meat or fish then I would eat it again - but I can't really, even though I want to, I can't afford to. It's like disregarding your own personal morals because you can't afford to uphold them - which is sad . 

As for supermarkets - I do love them because they are cheap and convienent and when your working and have a lot to do they are the best option. I do understand why some people hate them - my mum much prefers going to the butchers ect than tesco but that option isnt always available. 

Furniture wise I won't lie we do have a pretty modern house - but we work hard for what we have and we never go into debt for it, we save up and we keep it until it's useless. I've always been taught to look after what I have. Saying that though hand me downs don't bother me at all providing I like them. My granny was forever giving me old chairs and curtains and mirrors ect - I like vintage so I made them work lol! I don't like seeing people on benefits who don't really have money but are going into debt for settees ect - if you give the charity shops a good look then you'll definately find something nice or something you can make nice for a fraction of the price! I know we did once apoun a time. 
xx


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Ok Here goes Ii am a weirdo.. I may be the person you are looking for..lol 


But My parents used to force me to eat all fish and meat.... Now it should be natural to me as I grew up on a beef farm..

But it aint.. I remember many hours sat there chewing and chewing the same piece of meat and gagging cause I didn't want to swallow it cause i didn't like it... My mum used to say I was lazy..

Anyways as i got older I virtually stopped eating meat apart from the [email protected], sausages... 

For xmas dinner I would just have a plate of veggies.. 

I can now eat chicken and pork chip, bacon. and minced beef if its in chili or bol sauce and must say I dont mind the taste.. But if you say to me you know your eating a chicken or serve me the meat on the bone it puts me right off..

Now I dont know whether its the thought I am eating an animal Im not sure...
But also I do not like handling raw meat and to dice raw chicken it makes me gag for england, Also I used to work for a furn company and had to go to the manufactors and went the bit into the where they make the leather sofa and the smell knocked me sick..

I als cant walk through a meat market as it knocks me sick.. When I was little my mum used to drag me in the market and I would cover my mouth so as not to breath in the smell and taste and would cover my eyes so I couldn't see..

Now I can't really explain where all this came from.. But I have no problem with others killing and eating what they like..

I do wonder if it was because when I was little I was forced to eat it..

I didn't like sprouts or brocoli when I was younger andnow have brocoli with most meals and can eat sprouts by the bucket load..


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm chuckling away at your post momentofmadness, what a terrible weirdo you are :lol: :lol: :lol:

I must admit, I don't particularly like the smell of raw meat, so when you're standing in the butchers, and you get a waft of dead animal, it can be unpleasant. But it doesn't affect me to the extent it does you. 

And I'm chuckling at the crap sausages, now that would make me gag, can't abide anything that's been minced up and remade into cheap burgers, sausages, fish cakes etc, I do eat them, but I am careful about which ones I eat. 

The broccolli and sprouts thing is fairly natural I think, there's something (can't remember what) in them, that makes them unpalateable for children, but as your palate develops, that changes. 

Rainybow, second hand can be good. When my Nan died, my Aunt was going to skip her two arm chairs, I said I would love them as I used to sit and play cards with my Nan, we used to cheat like anything, she never used to wear glasses when we played  They were in a pretty bad state, and my greedy Aunt, made my Mum pay £40 for them, I didn't find out until afterwards. My Nan had been incontinent, so they needed completely reupholstering, I sanded the legs down, turns out they are patent parker knolls and worth quite a bit of money, not that I'd ever part with them. 

Fuzzbugs, that's why I like game, when I can get it, lives free, dies pretty much instantly and hasn't been transported all over the country, or from another country even. But I can fully understand that with the way we live, not many people would be able to stand plucking and drawing, or skinning, to prepare their own food.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

with regards to the plucking drawing etc you dont always have to do it! If you live anwhere near a shoot then they usually bag more birds than they can handle. The birds are free, and a few fluttered eyelashes and a couple of quid bunged the way of the apprentice gamekeeper usually means he will do all the prep for ya!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> with regards to the plucking drawing etc you dont always have to do it! If you live anwhere near a shoot then they usually bag more birds than they can handle. The birds are free, and a few fluttered eyelashes and a couple of quid bunged the way of the apprentice gamekeeper usually means he will do all the prep for ya!


I am hoping to get an extra freezer this year, game birds can be very cheap, and they are so tasty!! Now I've got a good contact for getting them, I hope to get a few more this year.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm chuckling away at your post momentofmadness, what a terrible weirdo you are :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I must admit, I don't particularly like the smell of raw meat, so when you're standing in the butchers, and you get a waft of dead animal, it can be unpleasant. But it doesn't affect me to the extent it does you.
> 
> ...


Fortunately my brother in law is a part time game keeper so i get the horrid bits done for me


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I eat meat, my whole family does.
When we buy meat, we do tend to buy it from the supermarket and we're not always totally aware where it comes from.

The handling raw meat thing... I can do it, I dice chicken nearly every week, however, it always makes me think a lot about should I really eat meat. 

I'm not keen on all meat anyway, for a roast dinner we generally have chicken or turkey. But recently once it's cooked and I come to eat it, I just can't, I have a few bites and just leave it.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I dont really like to handle meat, but thats more to do with the feel of it not where it comes from.

I do all our shopping at Tescos so am limited to what meat I buy and to be honest I look at cost first as apose to where it came from.

I would love to buy all our meat from a local butcher but finances wont allow it.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I am a self-confessed food hypocrite. I love meat (not game though - flavourwise). I can handle it and regularly chop up raw meat for the dogs. But what I can't stomach is people talking about the meat that is about to enter mouth - my in-laws discuss what it was like when it was alive etc and it makes me feel so bad that it puts me off my food.

I want to buy free range and meat that has had a good life - but once it's cooked I'd rather think of it as a product only with no history. 

I know, I know - I am a hypocrite.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I eat meat but dont like to see it as a whole animal I like any meat but it has to be cut off the animal if you know what i mean.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I would love to be veggie again but I don't know how I'd supplement my diet (I am a really fussy eater) as I became very ill after 5 years of it, I could never be vegan as I am a big dairy eater (and I know the cows have a less than ideal life but I'd probably have to live off pistachio nuts & cucumber slices if I were to go vegan) I can handle chopping up meat & preparing it & plucking pheasants, although I don't like gutting stuff. We get stuff such as rabbit & pheasant from friends & my OH brings home some fish sometimes & I feel better about these as I know where they have come from & that they have had a life of freedom.
As for stuff in my home, even if I won the lottery I'd still go round junk shops, 2nd hand shops, car boot sales & charity shops for everything, I get a lot more satisfaction from finding a bargain than I do from buying something new


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm reading these posts and counting myself very lucky, although my local butchers isn't as cheap as supermarkets, they are good value for money, and often have good deals on making them nearly as cheap for much better quality meat. I can't remember there being that much difference for some cuts either, I'd be interested to know, what the cost of a couple of nice steaks is from a supermarket, I pay about £10-£12 for two very nice rib eyes, about an inch thick, and I don't think supermarket meat comes anywhere near for quality. Not all butchers are as good as others, my added bonus with the local butchers is free lamb bones for the dogs, which helps with the finances, I can justify spending a little extra not only because of the quality, but I'm saving on buying raw meat and bones for the dogs. 

Good to hear others too like to rummage around and find old things rather than just buy new for their homes and themselves.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

To be honest when i was buying from Higher Hacknell as long as i was really careful about the cuts i bought and made sure i didn't waste anything it was comparable with what i would have spent on Organic in Tesco. I used to order every 6 weeks and spend about £120. I used to ger 3 decent meals from one of their 2k chooks :thumbup:

Since we had to cut down we just eat less meat rather than lower quality.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> We both have been vegetarians for over 20 years now (oh god I am showing my age now ). We try to source our veg as locally and organically as possible. Where we can we buy fairtraded, organic coffees, sugars, teas etc (has anyone else noticed that when it comes to sugar it is often either organic or fairtraded but hardly ever both?).
> 
> We feed our cats raw as we believe that is how they would naturally eat. Again that meat is as local and organic as possible. While I couldn't kill an animal myself (though I fished with my dad when I was little and ate what he killed), I don't mind chopping the meat for my cats.


 bloody hell this could be me!:thumbupexcept ive never fished lol).. to add to this i buy mostly 2nd hand furniture and clothes, buav approved cosmetics and toiletries



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm chuckling away at your post momentofmadness, what a terrible weirdo you are :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I must admit, I don't particularly like the smell of raw meat, so when you're standing in the butchers, and you get a waft of dead animal, it can be unpleasant. But it doesn't affect me to the extent it does you.
> 
> ...


when you say game SL do you mean as in game birds like pheasents? because they are very cruelly reared, thousands are kept much like battery hens are, and the ones released dont have survival instincts of a true wild bird(also very environmentally damaging to release such a large number of one species in an area)


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sorry for coming back late, I don't feel very well 

I buy locally sourced meat/organic/whatever the hell it is. If I were eating battery chickens etc then yes perhaps I should rethink about eating meat but I try to buy as ethical as I can - if I can't kill myself this is the closest I will get and to me that's good enough.

As for your other question it's a bit of both. I don't like to think about the future and sometimes it just doesn't occurr to me to think where my table or whatever came from.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> bloody hell this could be me!:thumbupexcept ive never fished lol).. to add to this i buy mostly 2nd hand furniture and clothes, buav approved cosmetics and toiletries
> 
> when you say game SL do you mean as in game birds like pheasents? because they are very cruelly reared, thousands are kept much like battery hens are, and the ones released dont have survival instincts of a true wild bird(also very environmentally damaging to release such a large number of one species in an area)


Ummm, not the birds I've seen, they're fit healthy specimens, they're released but encouraged to stay in the area by feeding, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to shoot. But, they have more of a chance to escape than a battery hen hung by it's feet, stunned, waiting to have it's throat slit.

I think it's a huge generalisation to think that all game birds are reared in poor circumstances, people who make a living at selling poults couldn't sell poor quality, if they're not good birds and can't fly, they can't be shot, so they need to be healthy. And they're not just chucked out into the wild, it's a gradual release, much like rescued foxes are released back into the wild 

As for other game, rabbits are wild completely, as are grouse, and both taste lovely.

You and I will probably differ on opinions in this, I know people who raise game birds and they do not raise them in a cruel way, but by far in a better way than the vast majority of birds raised for our table. But, I'd rather not turn this into a discussion about shooting, it's more along the lines of how many people think about their life in general, the effect they have by buying whatever they need for their lifestyle.

Sequeena, thanks for coming back to respond, sorry you're not feeling well, hope you're feeling better soon.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ummm, not the birds I've seen, they're fit healthy specimens, they're released but encouraged to stay in the area by feeding, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to shoot. But, they have more of a chance to escape than a battery hen hung by it's feet, stunned, waiting to have it's throat slit.
> 
> I think it's a huge generalisation to think that all game birds are reared in poor circumstances, people who make a living at selling poults couldn't sell poor quality, if they're not good birds and can't fly, they can't be shot, so they need to be healthy. And they're not just chucked out into the wild, it's a gradual release, much like rescued foxes are released back into the wild
> 
> ...


i dont want to turn this into a debate about shooting either lol, but i know how strongly you feel about battery kept chickens and im sure that you would be just as upset to know that thousands and thousands of egg laying pheasents are confined to battery cages for the whole of their productive lives(around 2yrs)these cages have been condemned across Europe and will be banned in 2012 because they are inhumane, the birds suffer high incidence of emaciation,feather loss and backand head wounds where they have repeatedly lunged at their cage roofs in an attempt to escape:frown:...45 million pheasents and partridges are mass produced they are then moved into fattening pens to be hand reared before being released for the shooters.

91% of all game birds are reared this way (all except grouse) and of course the poults look great and the pheasents running around where i live look great, but these birds are far from wild they are naive birds released into an alien environment.

i really think its important to show the true side of the game bird industry because many believe its an ethical and eco friendlier alternative to other farmed meats and its neither.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Years ago supermarkets, like butchers, had tiles and pictures galore of animals...some showing where the cuts of meat come from...
Have you noticed how they have nearly all disappeared? It's as if the shops are trying to convince us that meat just appears from nowhere in little polystyrene dishes.
Someone somewhere made the decision that these pictures be removed...Sneaky sods supermarkets,they must have done it for a phsycological reason.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

poohdog said:


> Years ago supermarkets, like butchers, had tiles and pictures galore of animals...some showing where the cuts of meat come from...
> Have you noticed how they have nearly all disappeared? It's as if the shops are trying to convince us that meat just appears from nowhere in little polystyrene dishes.
> Someone somewhere made the decision that these pictures be removed...Sneaky sods supermarkets,they must have done it for a phsycological reason.


That's a very good point, I think some peope like to pretend that it's not really an animal, more of a product.

Wasn't there that story a few months ago when a school was fgoing to rear a lamb for meat (all was made clear at the start), it was going to be treated well but eventually slaughtered, everyone knew this. The it seemed that it was all too much for one of the parents & they demanded the lamb get a 'reprieve'. 
Would they much rather that it was all done behind closed doors in a factory environment so no one would really have to face the fact that meat does come from animals!!!!!


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I eat meat and I have to say, it really doesnt bother me that the animal has died, so long as it was treated well! Its what they were bred for and humans have been killing and eating animals for years, so its ''normal''. Plus, I tried to be a vegitarian once, and failed as I just love meat! Lol

I support local produce as much as I can, I use a butchers here that uses local farms, it is far better to get my ham from there as the ''real'' ham in the shops is so expensive! I prefer to have fresh mince from there it makes the spag bol so much better! 

I even take raw bones home for the dogs it really doesnt bother me.

Nor does the fact that there is a dog meat factory nearish us, I mean where is the use in wasting all the rest of the animal? Each of the butchers here has a special bin for the collections and it is all taken to the factory then supplied to factories like pedigree etc so they can add whatever it is.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> That's a very good point, I think some peope like to pretend that it's not really an animal, more of a product.
> 
> Wasn't there that story a few months ago when a school was fgoing to rear a lamb for meat (all was made clear at the start), it was going to be treated well but eventually slaughtered, everyone knew this. The it seemed that it was all too much for one of the parents & they demanded the lamb get a 'reprieve'.
> Would they much rather that it was all done behind closed doors in a factory environment so no one would really have to face the fact that meat does come from animals!!!!!


The lambs were raised at the school..common sense would dictate that the animals be sent to market.But the head wanted them slaughtered and fed back to the kids in school dinners.Not very intelligent...the kids had raised the lambs like pets for Gods sake.
Why should they have to see the dead carcasses...on a farm 50 years ago maybe...but not in this day and age with kids brought up in the towns..


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## Emmiiee (Jan 3, 2010)

I am very fussy with meat! I will only eat meat if I know the animal has been treated right as was not a result of intense farming ! we keep chickens, but i could not kill and it it once we've 'made friends' x


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

I eat meat, but if I ever had to kill it myself I wouldnt be able to do it, I can handle meat too really love the feel of liver, so I suppose Im a whimp really, If I had to fend for myself in the wild I would starve


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Can I just add.....

Someone mentioned sponges.. I gag at sponges can't touch them, also I dont drink milk and haven't since I was taken off baby milk, If a splash of milk touches my skin I freak out, dont like milkshake either dont drink brews.. .... I also dont eat cheese it stinks.

Someone did say to me once if they were going to torture me they would soak milk into sponges and chuck them at me... Now I will prob have nightmares re thinking about this..

I will have the odd yoghurt has to be ski though, and that is the odd one and the odd bit of rice pudding but it has to be the one with nutmeg or whatever in it so its slightly brown.... But here is the crazy part I put a bit of milk in my creamy mash potatoe... 

So i think I have just confirmed for defo I am a weirdo... :thumbup: 

And when i was a kid my dad would only by meat from the butchers at the abbatior 10 mins from our house..:thumbup:
And I used to play with there kids there.. You used to hear the livestock at night being boomed... The noise kinda travelled for miles... 

Infact the kids had a goat and someone fancied some goat meat and guess what asta la vista goaty... Gone


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't drink milk either, never liked it after I was weaned, and to make it worse my mum use to 'force' me to have half a glass before bed, for the calcium I wasn't allowed my choccy digestive if I never drunk it.
I once picked up a mug of what i thought was water (the inside of the mug was white, and it was dark) after a mouthful of milk I threw up everywhere!
I have milk on my cereal but always tip most of it off the spoon and never drink the last bit, I will only drink milkshake I have made so I know its got lots of flavour in it. I like hot choc but again only if I make it, otherwise it tastes too milky. I only like yogurt sometimes - ie sometimes the thought of eating it makes me gag but other times its ok 
I must be weird too


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

PoisonGirl said:


> I don't drink milk either, never liked it after I was weaned, and to make it worse my mum use to 'force' me to have half a glass before bed, for the calcium I wasn't allowed my choccy digestive if I never drunk it.
> I once picked up a mug of what i thought was water (the inside of the mug was white, and it was dark) after a mouthful of milk I threw up everywhere!
> I have milk on my cereal but always tip most of it off the spoon and never drink the last bit, I will only drink milkshake I have made so I know its got lots of flavour in it. I like hot choc but again only if I make it, otherwise it tastes too milky. I only like yogurt sometimes - ie sometimes the thought of eating it makes me gag but other times its ok
> I must be weird too


LOL I wouldn't even risk it for a choccy biscuit.. Yuk.. No cereal either.. I used to put it in a sandwhich bag and eat it dry one the way to school..lol


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i dont want to turn this into a debate about shooting either lol, but i know how strongly you feel about battery kept chickens and im sure that you would be just as upset to know that thousands and thousands of egg laying pheasents are confined to battery cages for the whole of their productive lives(around 2yrs)these cages have been condemned across Europe and will be banned in 2012 because they are inhumane, the birds suffer high incidence of emaciation,feather loss and backand head wounds where they have repeatedly lunged at their cage roofs in an attempt to escape:frown:...45 million pheasents and partridges are mass produced they are then moved into fattening pens to be hand reared before being released for the shooters.
> 
> 91% of all game birds are reared this way (all except grouse) and of course the poults look great and the pheasents running around where i live look great, but these birds are far from wild they are naive birds released into an alien environment.
> 
> i really think its important to show the true side of the game bird industry because many believe its an ethical and eco friendlier alternative to other farmed meats and its neither.


The ones i get aren't kept like this :confused1: Maybe it is like the chicken industry in that some are kept in bad conditions and some are not therefore it is up to the individual to take care where they are sourcing their produce from.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> The ones i get aren't kept like this :confused1: Maybe it is like the chicken industry in that some are kept in bad conditions and some are not therefore it is up to the individual to take care where they are sourcing their produce from.


I dont know where you get yours from so maybe the game birds you get are the rare 'lucky' ones but birds reared for shoots are kept like this im afraid.

check this out to find out what really goes on and the devestating predator control that is used to protect this mass concentration of birds!...Animal Aid: THE KILLING FIELDS - Pheasant shooting report


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> I dont know where you get yours from so maybe the game birds you get are the rare 'lucky' ones but birds reared for shoots are kept like this im afraid.
> 
> check this out to find out what really goes on and the devestating predator control that is used to protect this mass concentration of birds!...Animal Aid: THE KILLING FIELDS - Pheasant shooting report


I really don't want this to turn into a debate about how poults are raised, but this is a sweeping generalisation  You are bound to get some people in any industry that are not as ethical as others, I have never said that every person that hunts, shoots, fishes is beyond reproach, it would be simply untrue. The places where I have seen poults raised are by far and above better than anything, any chicken or turkey raised for the table lives to see.

Devastating predator control? Not sure what you mean by that, yes, foxes and other animals are killed where they are a nuisance, but I think you will find that people who live and work in the countryside, on shoots enjoy seeing wildlife in balance. Are foxes endangered, despite this control? No, they're in good healthy numbers. I wasn't going to post about this following your post a couple of pages ago, because I really don't want this to turn into a debate about shooting, or killing your own food, but I feel strongly that you are promoting a very one sided view with several of your posts, which just isn't true of everyone involved with the countryside.

One thing you do not seem to grasp is that nature left to itself in this little country will not balance out, it has been tried. The RSPB famously bought Langholm, a grouse moor, left it to itself and within four years it was barren, we do not live in a wild Britain, there is no such thing, and it's with the careful management and conservation of people who live and work in the countryside that others enjoy the benefit of a wide range of native species.

Unfortunately, in recent times this has been devastated by the release of mink and wild boar, both of which were released by those who are anti hunting. Now whilst I agree that keeping wild mink in cages simply for their skins is appalling, the act of releasing them into the British countryside was even more appalling. The effect they have had has been devastating on some of our native species; with wild boar there is simply no excuse!!!

That's all I am going to say on the matter, because you will always post one side, your view, which is unbalanced.

Alaun, I actually came on to say you've obviously not tried pheasant kiev, had it last night for tea, delicious. Although partridge would probably be better as the breast meat retains more moisture. Tonight it's pheasant risotto 

I am chuckling away at milk soaked sponges, momentofmadness, you truly are a weirdo :lol:


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> To be honest when i was buying from Higher Hacknell as long as i was really careful about the cuts i bought and made sure i didn't waste anything it was comparable with what i would have spent on Organic in Tesco. I used to order every 6 weeks and spend about £120. I used to ger 3 decent meals from one of their 2k chooks :thumbup:
> 
> Since we had to cut down we just eat less meat rather than lower quality.


Might be worth looking around closer to you, we stumbled onto the organic farm/shop by pure accident. We were driving past when it was one of their open days (only open 2 days a month) and decided to pop in a have a look. To give you an idea of what I get localish compared to having something delivered from a distance away. In the second week of June we spent £120 for which we got
Topside joint - which I cut into 3 and does 2 sunday meals for 6 of us the other just for me and hubs
Rolled Sirloin joint - cut into 6 steaks and still enough for a roast with 6 of us at the "wobbily" table
two Fillets 
Two lamb noisette cut joints - maybe a little cheaper as once the lamb season is over the cuts are frozen
4 barnsley cut lamb chops
6 beefburgers
Dozen sausage
Dozen beef and horseradish sausages
Unfortunately they dont do chicken and I'm not keen on pork as its quite a bland meat these days, although I keep promising myself that I will try a small pork joint next time I go, because the pork rind on the meat they have doesnt have that insepid look to it that everywhere else seems to have.

Ok the initial outlay makes me cry, but I still have a beef joint a lamb joint 2 sirloin steaks and 6 sausages in my freezer. Which will keep me going until they open again at the beginning of august:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

bird said:


> Might be worth looking around closer to you, we stumbled onto the organic farm/shop by pure accident. We were driving past when it was one of their open days (only open 2 days a month) and decided to pop in a have a look. To give you an idea of what I get localish compared to having something delivered from a distance away. In the second week of June we spent £120 for which we got
> Topside joint - which I cut into 3 and does 2 sunday meals for 6 of us the other just for me and hubs
> Rolled Sirloin joint - cut into 6 steaks and still enough for a roast with 6 of us at the "wobbily" table
> two Fillets
> ...


Just got some rare breed pork, it had been reared in a little paddock by someone who lives close by, and is absolutely delicious. But I agree, a lot of pork is bland nowadays, although I have to say that my butchers seem to get some nice stuff in.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I thought i would offer an alternative for anyone who would either love to grow their own meat, or who really really wants to know where their meat comes from!

Adopt-A-Pig

You choose your piglet, you see how its raised, you can visit, get email updates, log-on and see your pigs progress, and at the end.... you get the meat (all the meat - including offal if you want it).

Price is comparable to a high quality butchers but if people really want the assurance of how their meat is raised then this is certainly an option!


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just got some rare breed pork, it had been reared in a little paddock by someone who lives close by, and is absolutely delicious. But I agree, a lot of pork is bland nowadays, although I have to say that my butchers seem to get some nice stuff in.


To be honest I dont know why I didnt get a cut of pork last time I was there, I kept staring at it but never ordered any.  Think it was because the rind and flesh looked quite different to what I normally see in the shops. It was only as we had pulled off and was back on the main road I suddenly thought "I bet that pork would have been tasty". :lol: If I get chance to go next mth baring in mind I have grandmonster then, I think I'll get some.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Shaman i understand your perspective. There is certainly alot of mass game producers, but not all are of the same ilk.

I have two opposite ends of the spectrum less than 20 miles from me. 1 produces over 100,000 pheasant and partridge poults (including the disgusting practice of buying WILD eggs from spain!!!!!).

The other produces only enough for their estate, they are bred in open air pens, not overcrowded and the chicks are reared in the woods! Yes he loses alot to predators and yes i wont deny his gamekeeper is active in his skills are killing them, but there is a vast difference between the two. One is a battery farm for game, the other is a small scale similar to a smallholding.

I know which i would choose!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> I dont know where you get yours from so maybe the game birds you get are the rare 'lucky' ones but birds reared for shoots are kept like this im afraid.
> 
> check this out to find out what really goes on and the devestating predator control that is used to protect this mass concentration of birds!...Animal Aid: THE KILLING FIELDS - Pheasant shooting report


I understand the Government have already taken measures to improve this anyway.

I find it deeply hypocritical that there are probably a fair number of people who bang on about animal welfare issues yet still pop a couple of 2 for a fiver chickens in their trolley at Tesco. That may not be animal cruelty for sport but it is almost worse than that because it is supporting animal cruelty passively because it suits our needs.

Like i have said there are very few people who can wholeheartedly claim to truly live in a way that doesn't support animal cruelty in some way. I am sure you can but there are ways of "educating" people IMO and bashing them over the head with it isn't the best option.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

bird said:


> Might be worth looking around closer to you, we stumbled onto the organic farm/shop by pure accident. We were driving past when it was one of their open days (only open 2 days a month) and decided to pop in a have a look. To give you an idea of what I get localish compared to having something delivered from a distance away. In the second week of June we spent £120 for which we got
> Topside joint - which I cut into 3 and does 2 sunday meals for 6 of us the other just for me and hubs
> Rolled Sirloin joint - cut into 6 steaks and still enough for a roast with 6 of us at the "wobbily" table
> two Fillets
> ...


This is similar to what i used to do. It seems really expensive in one lump but divided over 6 weeks it wasn't bad. I am seriously considering getting back into it. I used to order joints like brisket of beef which are much cheaper and delish if slow roasted, and lamb shanks too. Like i said their chickens went alot further than even an Organic Tesco one and somehow you needed less of it because it was richer, maybe not pumped up with water 

Burgers and mince are always good value from places like this and i used to get the chicken quarters and drumsticks rather than breasts too :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just for Alaun, I'm having the one phessie kiev left over from tea last night for my lunch, with home grown rocket, british cherry tomatoes, and a potato salad made from locally grown produce. The kievs were made with a free range egg, and bread from the local co-op bakery, all fresh, all absolutely delicious, honest, give game another go


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

MY meat content has drasticly changed at the moment. I haven't ate pig since January/ Feburary and i don't intend to again basically as a result of their poor life styles.....

I have never ate rabbit and i don't intend too, i couldn't possibly eat an animal that i would class as a pet. It's like eating dog.... My animals are also restricted from chaseing, and i will prevent them as much as possible from killing.... Luckily enough it hasn't happened yet and i don't think i would be able to end its suffering if my dog did catch one.

Can't remember the last time i ate beef.

At the moment i eat fish such as tuna and i will only eat meat if it is free range... or i won't eat it at all.

I won't eat any exotic dishes ether.

I have only had my first flat for nearly 2 years and as a result the majority of my things are hand me downs. I have one problem though i do love leather, but the majority isn't true leather!


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

I only eat fish, i don't like he thought of eating meat, i used to be a veggie and not wear leather ect. But i got ill so started eating fish. However cutting up meat and handling it (for the dogs) doesn't in any way bother me, maybe because im not eating it. lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I love fresh fish, but my heart sinks when you see *quotas* and the waste that goes along with the fish industry. I love things like octopus and squid as well, although octopus takes a bit of preparing.


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I love fresh fish, but my heart sinks when you see *quotas* and the waste that goes along with the fish industry. I love things like octopus and squid as well, although octopus takes a bit of preparing.


Yeh i don't eat allot of it. But it is so yummy too. Crab is also nice. Its more of a treat.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I really don't want this to turn into a debate about how poults are raised, but this is a sweeping generalisation  You are bound to get some people in any industry that are not as ethical as others, I have never said that every person that hunts, shoots, fishes is beyond reproach, it would be simply untrue. The places where I have seen poults raised are by far and above better than anything, any chicken or turkey raised for the table lives to see.
> 
> Devastating predator control? Not sure what you mean by that, yes, foxes and other animals are killed where they are a nuisance, but I think you will find that people who live and work in the countryside, on shoots enjoy seeing wildlife in balance. Are foxes endangered, despite this control? No, they're in good healthy numbers. I wasn't going to post about this following your post a couple of pages ago, because I really don't want this to turn into a debate about shooting, or killing your own food, but I feel strongly that you are promoting a very one sided view with several of your posts, which just isn't true of everyone involved with the countryside.
> 
> ...


my views arnt unbalanced but maybe yours are....i think you'll find if you do your research the majority of poults are mass produced in this way i believe 50% are imported from France all of which are intensively and inhumanly reared, i really thought you were unaware of what goes on to produce all these birds so im a bit surprised at your reaction infact im really shocked you are defending the industry tbh,...... is it really 'fair game' to be killing a hand reared bird who is dumped into an alien environment?

yes there will be lots of predators move in, because they are attracted to these unnaturally dense concentrations of birds, birds who have practically no survival skills so are easy pickings, game keepers have the job of protecting them, guns ,snares,traps and poisons are often used, predator control of game birds is the reason the beautiful hen harrier faces extinction in this country.

Despite industry claims that current game production benefits wildlife, populations of many farmland birds, including the once abundant grey partridge, have declined by up to 80 per cent. The pheasant too may now be destined for extinction as a truly wild bird. Then theres the lead shot which is deposited all over the countryside, lead is a broad-spectrum metabolic poison producing toxic results in animal tissue. It attacks immune, behavioural, and reproductive systems, and it can kill. It is also the favourite shot of the game bird industry.

It is now accepted that significant numbers of wild birds die every year from ingesting spent lead shot deposited as a by-product of sport shooting. Lead shot in the body tissue of prey species may result in secondary poisoning of predatory birds and other animals.

i just want to make it clear i have nothing against killing and eating truely wild game nor am i against fishing so long as its done humanely and responsibly, at least these animals have lived a natural life.

and as for releasing mink then i feel just as angry at the stupid irresponsible idiots who did this, i dont know enough about the boars but they were an indiginous species and i know in Alladale in scotland they have reintroduced them, as they have other extinct native species and what a diverse wonderful place it is, fingers crossed they will get the go ahead to bring back our apex predators.

__________________



RAINYBOW said:


> I understand the Government have already taken measures to improve this anyway.
> 
> I find it deeply hypocritical that there are probably a fair number of people who bang on about animal welfare issues yet still pop a couple of 2 for a fiver chickens in their trolley at Tesco. That may not be animal cruelty for sport but it is almost worse than that because it is supporting animal cruelty passively because it suits our needs.
> 
> Like i have said there are very few people who can wholeheartedly claim to truly live in a way that doesn't support animal cruelty in some way. I am sure you can but there are ways of "educating" people IMO and bashing them over the head with it isn't the best option.


yes measures are in place to improve conditions and even if these changes are satisfactory what about the impact on the environment it wont do anything to improve that, and im certainly not perfect but i do try my best and if i did eat meat i certainly wouldnt want to contribute in any way to this industry.

also i thought i maybe was educating people, a lot dont realise what actually goes on in the game bird industry and the devestation it has on eco systems so i just thought it relevant to the thread to try and point it out...sorry if ive offended anyone.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> my views arnt unbalanced but maybe yours are....i think you'll find if you do your research the majority of poults are mass produced in this way i believe 50% are imported from France all of which are intensively and inhumanly reared, i really thought you were unaware of what goes on to produce all these birds so im a bit surprised at your reaction infact im really shocked you are defending the industry tbh,...... is it really 'fair game' to be killing a hand reared bird who are dumped into an alien environment?
> 
> yes there will be lots of predators move in, because they are attracted to these unnaturally dense concentrations of birds, birds who have practically no survival skills so are easy pickings, game keepers have the job of protecting them, guns ,snares,traps and poisons are often used, predator control of game birds is the reason the beautiful hen harrier faces extinction in this country.
> 
> ...


I'm chuckling away at your balanced view, and I feel like I'm repeating myself but here goes  I do not like large commercial shoots, these are the type of shoots that you're talking about. I have seen first hand birds raised to be released, they are healthy and happy looking birds, and I've already explained why this is the case. They are not hand reared, if they were, it would be a complete disadvantage to the shoot, as they wouldn't be afraid of humans.

They are released in a similar way as foxes that have been caught, so are you saying this is a bad way to release an animal or bird into the wild? They are then encouraged to stay in that area with food and water, as well as medication in some instances, so that they are healthy specimens.

Pheasants and partridge seem to have pretty good survival skills to me, I see enough of them out and about in the countryside that have survived, and there is actually a theory that shooting the high fliers leads to the low fliers surviving, thus passing on the better genes.

I don't know anyone in the shooting community that uses poisons or snares, anyone I know that kills rats, foxes, or crows, does so with terriers, humane traps, or use a gun, and they try to ensure it's done as quickly and humanely as possible.

The grey partridge is being preserved in shooting areas, it would be a great loss if the shooting community diminished and weren't able to support this beautiful bird by helping to breed more of them, providing the type of habitat they need. They also taste nice 

And I think you'll find this article on hen harriers and the management of grouse moors interesting, their numbers have increased significantly, and as the article explains, their conservation, along with that of grouse moors, seems to be a success. It explains what happened at Langholm, and why management for these areas is so important.

Countryside Alliance - Grouse Moors and their Management

Lead shot has been banned for wildfowling, and I think if you read up on the government report a little, you'll find that even though there are cases of lead poisoning, they really have no effect on overall mortality rates, the only case in my view is, as the report suggests, for use in areas where there are raptors and you may not be able to retrieve the game you've shot. As it's the job of the picking up team to try and ensure that there are no birds or ground game left out there, either dead or injured, then there shouldn't be any game with lead shot in it left to eat. Obviously you can't be 100% certain, but as certain as possible. So I think your 'significant numbers' bit isn't quite right.

FERA - Lead Shot - Review of evidence by Roger Quy

I don't know how many times I am going to have to repeat myself but you seem to have a sweeping generalisation when it comes to the hunting, shooting and fishing community, and cannot see the wood for the trees.

Now can we please debate the impact of our lifestyles rather than have a dig at one element of the population continually?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> my views arnt unbalanced but maybe yours are....i think you'll find if you do your research the majority of poults are mass produced in this way i believe 50% are imported from France all of which are intensively and inhumanly reared, i really thought you were unaware of what goes on to produce all these birds so im a bit surprised at your reaction infact im really shocked you are defending the industry tbh,...... is it really 'fair game' to be killing a hand reared bird who is dumped into an alien environment?
> 
> yes there will be lots of predators move in, because they are attracted to these unnaturally dense concentrations of birds, birds who have practically no survival skills so are easy pickings, game keepers have the job of protecting them, guns ,snares,traps and poisons are often used, predator control of game birds is the reason the beautiful hen harrier faces extinction in this country.
> 
> ...


The problem is you seem to always assume we are all total clueless numpties who need our eyes opening to the truth and to be honest A) i find that quite insulting and B) i am not convinced that the sources you get your information from are impartial and give an acurate reflection of the truth.

In my experience the game i eat has had a happy and healthy life and i refuse to feel bad about eating it, and the same goes for the other meat i put on my table.

The people i know who are responsible for the management of our countryside are kind considerate people who care deeply about the animals they keep and are conserving our countryside for generations to come and you do them a great diservice labelling them all the way you do. Countryside management is a way of LIFE not a cause, these people were born and bred to it and who the hell am i, the townie that i am, to tell them how to do their jobs.

Jumping on the choices people make will not educate, you must give people an alternative that they can manage. EG the whole chicken thing (to keep this on topic), rather than bang on about battery farmers blah blah blah surely to tell people how they can buy the most ethical meat they can taking into account that not everyone can afford Organic, massaged chickens who have lived in an apple orchard and been sung to sleep every night, is the way to go. Champion the local butcher, advise people that chickens that have been better reared will provide more meat making them more cost effective, help people to realise that maybe by having 2 meat free meals a week they could offset the cost of free range chickens etc. IMO thats how you make changes in the way people think about what they put in their trolly.


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## LaughingHeart (May 23, 2010)

When my ancestors hunted a bison [buffalo] they eat the meat, fed the dogs with the offal, used the hide for clothing and shelter, sewed with the sinew and crafted with the bone and horn. they made glue from the hoofs, and water carriers from the stomach....No waste, all fed and all happy!
Shame the life style eroded!! We are all too damn lazy for all that work now!
Buy it all in the mart!!
Paol. :confused1:


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

LaughingHeart said:


> When my ancestors hunted a bison [buffalo] they eat the meat, fed the dogs with the offal, used the hide for clothing and shelter, sewed with the sinew and crafted with the bone and horn. they made glue from the hoofs, and water carriers from the stomach....No waste, all fed and all happy!
> Shame the life style eroded!! We are all too damn lazy for all that work now!
> Buy it all in the mart!!
> Paol. :confused1:


Would be great if things could go back to those times. Would be amazing.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

LaughingHeart said:


> When my ancestors hunted a bison [buffalo] they eat the meat, fed the dogs with the offal, used the hide for clothing and shelter, sewed with the sinew and crafted with the bone and horn. they made glue from the hoofs, and water carriers from the stomach....No waste, all fed and all happy!
> Shame the life style eroded!! We are all too damn lazy for all that work now!
> Buy it all in the mart!!
> Paol. :confused1:


very true, there is alot to be said for that kind of ethos. It shows true respect for the animal IMO.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LaughingHeart said:


> When my ancestors hunted a bison [buffalo] they eat the meat, fed the dogs with the offal, used the hide for clothing and shelter, sewed with the sinew and crafted with the bone and horn. they made glue from the hoofs, and water carriers from the stomach....No waste, all fed and all happy!
> Shame the life style eroded!! We are all too damn lazy for all that work now!
> Buy it all in the mart!!
> Paol. :confused1:


It is a shame, and that's why I started the post in a way. I can't understand why people don't make more things like stock themselves, it tastes so much better.

From the brace of pheasants we had last night, I'll get another two or or three meals, make stock, and get a bit off them for the dogs. It isn't hard to do, and stock bubbles away while you're doing something else.

I also pick a lot of berries and wild fruit and nuts when I can. I found a hazel tree last year with some nuts on, brilliant!! And I've still got some brambles in my freezer, I have loads of different recipes, including ones for things like alcoholic drinks, damson gin, blackberry brandy, bilberry vodka etc. They're fab, because once the fruit has been used to flavour the alcohol, you can use it again!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It is a shame, and that's why I started the post in a way. I can't understand why people don't make more things like stock themselves, it tastes so much better.
> 
> From the brace of pheasants we had last night, I'll get another two or or three meals, make stock, and get a bit off them for the dogs. It isn't hard to do, and stock bubbles away while you're doing something else.
> 
> I also pick a lot of berries and wild fruit and nuts when I can. I found a hazel tree last year with some nuts on, brilliant!! And I've still got some brambles in my freezer, I have loads of different recipes, including ones for things like alcoholic drinks, damson gin, blackberry brandy, bilberry vodka etc. They're fab, because once the fruit has been used to flavour the alcohol, you can use it again!!


My husbands current mission is to make Marrow Rum :confused1: :lol: He planted Butternut squash but due to a cock up with the seed manufacturer we have a ton of marrow which we don't eat as much of so he has found out you can ferment it and make rum :lol: Will let you know how it goes :thumbup:

I am still eating apple crumble from my apples off the 3 trees in my garden from last year :thumbup: I also trade them when we get the inevitable glut. A mate of mine maked both my childrens birthday cakes each year in return for some of my apples


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Haha, I'm chuckling now at marrow rum!!! 

Another thing to do with fruit, is make something called fruit cheese, I made damson and bilberry cheese last year, you just push the fruit through a nylon sieve to get a clean pulp, pop it in a pan with a bit of water and sugar, here we go, copied from another forum I post on.....

Damson Gin - For each lb of damsons you need 75cl gin and 6oz white sugar. Wash and prick the fruit, and place in a wide necked 1ltr jar that you will be able to seal. Using a funnel add the sugar, and then the gin. Shake daily to dissolve the sugar, and do this for at least three months.

Damson Cheese - You need 1.4kg (3lb) damsons, preferrably, you will have made damson gin before hand with them. Put the fruit and 150-300ml to just cover in a saucepan, pop a lid on and simmer for about 15-20 mins until the fruit is very soft. Scoop out the stones with a slotted spoon as they come to the surface.

Using a wooden spoon press the fruit pulp through a nylon sieve and measure the purre. Return the puree to the pan and add 350g sugar for each 1pint puree. Heat gently until the sugar has dissolved, then bring to the boil and boil gently, stirring frequently for 30-40 mins until it is so thick that the wooden spoon leaves a clean line through the mixture when drawn across the bottom of the pan. Pot and cover the cheese, I do this in small earthenware pots, just lined with clingfilm that I can fold over. Leave to set and mature for two months. Slice and eat with cheese and crackers, I've still got some in the fridge from last year, including one made from bilberries, and it is really delicious!!!

You can use those amounts with other fruit, the end product is bloomin' lovely.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Haha, I'm chuckling now at marrow rum!!!
> 
> Another thing to do with fruit, is make something called fruit cheese, I made damson and bilberry cheese last year, you just push the fruit through a nylon sieve to get a clean pulp, pop it in a pan with a bit of water and sugar, here we go, copied from another forum I post on.....
> 
> ...


Sounds bizarre but interesting :thumbup: We don't get much of a glut with soft fruits because my kids eat them all straight off the plants, they have eaten a mountain of rasberries at the moment.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm chuckling away at your balanced view, and I feel like I'm repeating myself but here goes  I do not like large commercial shoots, these are the type of shoots that you're talking about. I have seen first hand birds raised to be released, they are healthy and happy looking birds, and I've already explained why this is the case. They are not hand reared, if they were, it would be a complete disadvantage to the shoot, as they wouldn't be afraid of humans.
> 
> They are released in a similar way as foxes that have been caught, so are you saying this is a bad way to release an animal or bird into the wild? They are then encouraged to stay in that area with food and water, as well as medication in some instances, so that they are healthy specimens.
> 
> ...


 how have you come to the conclusion that i seem to have a sweeping generalisation of the shooting and fishing community?

i didnt see in your previous posts where you condemned commercial shoots so sorry for missing that, but as the majority of birds are bred and reared for these shoots surely then you dont claim the majority of game birds to be a humane ethical source of meat? im pleased to hear your shoot is ethical but im afraid the pheasents round here arnt worldly wise its carnage on the roads and i dare say even i'd be able to shoot them, fox arnt released until they have reverted back to their wild state and they have their instinctive fear of humans.

i understand that grouse moors need to be managed to an extent but with regards to langholm i believe a shoot every 3yrs has been recommended? these links are very interesting on the plight of the hen harrierBrink of Extinction: Hen Harrier Numbers in England Crash. | Raptor PoliticsThe RSPB: Wild birds and the law: Bird of prey persecution

and this from Shootinguk on lead shot.....Has BASC given up on lead shot? | Home Feature | Shooting UK



RAINYBOW said:


> The problem is you seem to always assume we are all total clueless numpties who need our eyes opening to the truth and to be honest A) i find that quite insulting and B) i am not convinced that the sources you get your information from are impartial and give an acurate reflection of the truth.
> 
> In my experience the game i eat has had a happy and healthy life and i refuse to feel bad about eating it, and the same goes for the other meat i put on my table.
> 
> ...


im not looking for an argument...... just do your own reseach from whatever source you choose if you think my sources are bias! and i wasnt jumping on anyones choices i have been polite to you and SleepingLion ..as i said a lot of people dont realise what goes on in the industry thats why i posted.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/battery08.pdf


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I also pick a lot of berries and wild fruit and nuts when I can. I found a hazel tree last year with some nuts on, brilliant!! And I've still got some brambles in my freezer, I have loads of different recipes, including ones for things like alcoholic drinks, damson gin, blackberry brandy, bilberry vodka etc. They're fab, because once the fruit has been used to flavour the alcohol, you can use it again!!


I managed to get some hazelnuts last year too, and they tasted far nicer than what you can get in the shops. Unfortunately the wild raspberry seems to have totally disappeared.  However I'm keeping an eye on the blackberries, and they're coming on nicely. :thumbup:



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Haha, I'm chuckling now at marrow rum!!!
> 
> Another thing to do with fruit, is make something called fruit cheese, I made damson and bilberry cheese last year, you just push the fruit through a nylon sieve to get a clean pulp, pop it in a pan with a bit of water and sugar, here we go, copied from another forum I post on.....
> 
> ...


If I can beat one guy who harvests everything in the field/wood for his wines etc, to the damson trees in the field (used to be an orchard) I'll try the damson gin receipe. Did sloe gin last year (Off the sloe berries in the same field). Its been fermenting for nearly a year now. :eek6:



RAINYBOW said:


> Sounds bizarre but interesting :thumbup: We don't get much of a glut with soft fruits because my kids eat them all straight off the plants, they have eaten a mountain of rasberries at the moment.


None of our strawberries or raspberries make it to a dish either, picked and eaten within a minute. :thumbup:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> how have you come to the conclusion that i seem to have a sweeping generalisation of the shooting and fishing community?
> 
> i didnt see in your previous posts where you condemned commercial shoots so sorry for missing that, but as the majority of birds are bred and reared for these shoots surely then you dont claim the majority of game birds to be a humane ethical source of meat? im pleased to hear your shoot is ethical but im afraid the pheasents round here arnt worldly wise its carnage on the roads and i dare say even i'd be able to shoot them, fox arnt released until they have reverted back to their wild state and they have their instinctive fear of humans.
> 
> ...


I can see you are not looking for an argument, neither am i  just stating my opinion. Like i said i am happy that what i eat meats my own welfare requirements, You may not mean to jump up and down on peoples heads but that is what it feels like. Kind of "your way or no way" when actually i believe there are other ways. If you give people no alternatives or options i am afraid they tend to switch off, noone likes being preached at which regretfully is what it can feel like sometimes when someone is as passionate about things as you are  It is not realistic to expect everyone to live the way you must do if you truly make no contribution to animal cruelty 

My point is you assumed we didn't know where our game came from and insisted it was cruely treated when infact if you read back most of us very much do know where it came from.

To be honest given the ethos you appear to have on life i would have thought this was a thread you would have enjoyed and could have contributed to in a positive way  An opportunity to tell people how it CAN be done and what the alternatives are with regards food, cleaning products, cosmetics and waste, Now THAT IMO is a positive way of making changes to the way people think 

I am not challenging your cause i am merely trying to debate the way you deliver it and don't mean to offend in any way


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> how have you come to the conclusion that i seem to have a sweeping generalisation of the shooting and fishing community?
> 
> i didnt see in your previous posts where you condemned commercial shoots so sorry for missing that, but as the majority of birds are bred and reared for these shoots surely then you dont claim the majority of game birds to be a humane ethical source of meat? im pleased to hear your shoot is ethical but im afraid the pheasents round here arnt worldly wise its carnage on the roads and i dare say even i'd be able to shoot them, fox arnt released until they have reverted back to their wild state and they have their instinctive fear of humans.
> 
> ...


I haven't posted previously on this thread that I've *condemned* commercial shoots, nor any other thread that I'm aware, I have however expressed my distaste for the way they operate.

I don't have a shoot, I'm lucky enough to have been along to a few, and know people involved in several shoots, so the information is first hand. I have yet to come across a shoot that doesn't raise birds in a clean and ethical way. The same as I have yet to come across a shoot where they operate in an unethical way, in the way they raise their birds, and the way they control the population of the wildlife within the boundary of the shoot. I might also note they have abundant wildlife on the shoots I've been to, hare, foxes, rabbits, deer, to name a few, as well as those pesky released birds 

So you agree then, the way the birds are released that I've described, which is the same as foxes, means that they're released in a humane way? You don't shoot birds on the ground btw, or that are low or too close, that would be unsporting  You shoot the high birds, if you miss, they live another day. More of a chance I'd say than being stacked into a crate, transported (sometimes for many miles), hung by your feet, stunned (if you're lucky) and having your throat slit, which is how the majority of birds for our table are killed.

Grouse moor management involves bird counts and if the population has been hit, as it has this year by the late snow, then the shoot days are reduced accordingly, sometimes altogether.

Yes I had seen the BASC article, if you read the report on the use of lead shot, it shows no significant increase in the rate of mortality where it is used, so I'm not sure why you're asking? In fact there are higher rates of lead found where some forms of mining had taken place.

I hadn't seen the RSPB article, I'm not a fan of this charity that has taken a political stance to be honest. The article does mention overall numbers of hen harriers have increased, just because they haven't increased on grouse moors, does not indicate persecution on all grouse moors. The RSPB I believe noted no chicks from hen harriers on one of their moors within one breeding season, does this mean the RSPB are persecuting their own birds?

I have yet to see one post from you that accepts that shooting and hunting is ethical, unless I've missed them, and the vast majority of links seem to be from the anti hunting and shooting viewpoint, your signature really says as much about your beliefs. Your view *seems* to be that hunting and shooting is completely unethical, with a very small exception, and that all hunting and shooting should be stopped. Although I may be wrong about that, it's just how you come across on open forum


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

bird said:


> If I can beat one guy who harvests everything in the field/wood for his wines etc, to the damson trees in the field (used to be an orchard) I'll try the damson gin receipe. Did sloe gin last year (Off the sloe berries in the same field). Its been fermenting for nearly a year now. :eek6:
> 
> None of our strawberries or raspberries make it to a dish either, picked and eaten within a minute. :thumbup:


Damson gin is fab, nicer than sloe gin I think. My dogs love going brambling with me, they eat as much as they can!!!


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

I am a meat eater but I buy products that are not tested on animals!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> how have you come to the conclusion that i seem to have a sweeping generalisation of the shooting and fishing community?
> 
> i didnt see in your previous posts where you condemned commercial shoots so sorry for missing that, but as the majority of birds are bred and reared for these shoots surely then you dont claim the majority of game birds to be a humane ethical source of meat? im pleased to hear your shoot is ethical but im afraid the pheasents round here arnt worldly wise its carnage on the roads and i dare say even i'd be able to shoot them, fox arnt released until they have reverted back to their wild state and they have their instinctive fear of humans.
> 
> ...


I was thinking about this when I was out walking/training the girls, as an *industry* if you like, the way pheasants and other game birds are released is by far better than any farming method involving the rearing of birds, I think? If you could ask a chicken whether it could have a life of six months, raised in a cage, possibly a barn or free range if it's lucky, and know it was going to die at the end of that time, or whether it took it's chances, with the road, fox, illness, or getting shot, the answer to me would be obvious.

Obviously a chicken would prefer not to be eaten at all, but that's life 

I'd be interested to hear your wider views, rather than just the focus on shooting btw.


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was thinking about this when I was out walking/training the girls, as an *industry* if you like, the way pheasants and other game birds are released is by far better than any farming method involving the rearing of birds, I think? If you could ask a chicken whether it could have a life of six months, raised in a cage, possibly a barn or free range if it's lucky, and know it was going to die at the end of that time, or whether it took it's chances, with the road, fox, illness, or getting shot, the answer to me would be obvious.
> 
> Obviously a chicken would prefer not to be eaten at all, but that's life
> 
> I'd be interested to hear your wider views, rather than just the focus on shooting btw.


I don't think theres anything wrong with hunting as long as you know what your doing!! I often eat a shot rabbit thats bought in the butchers. With slaughter it takes to long and the animals have the chance to panic. I would prefer all the animals I eat to be reared well but its not always what is says on the packet!!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

rainybow, i know what you mean about shamen's posts.

shamen dunno how you do it mate but you always manage to get my back up.. i assume it's just how you phrase it which is no fault of your own really , that's obviously how you talk/type. you're right of course, not everyone on here has half a clue about some of the stuff going on in the world, and while i also find some of your links severly biased... it's up to us 'readers' to do further research.. not take other peoples opinions as fact.

we just have to mind that we can't see others facial expressions or know each other that well... pinch of salt, deep breath 

sleeping.. if you could ask a chicken that, i do believe you're right the answer would be obvious.. it would say,... "i'd take the gun and shoot the farmer myself, then start a chickens-for-freedom gang and go fox and human hunting for murdering and consuming my babies".
that's pretty much where you were going with that right?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

owieprone said:


> rainybow, i know what you mean about shamen's posts.
> 
> shamen dunno how you do it mate but you always manage to get my back up.. i assume it's just how you phrase it which is no fault of your own really , that's obviously how you talk/type. you're right of course, not everyone on here has half a clue about some of the stuff going on in the world, and while i also find some of your links severly biased... it's up to us 'readers' to do further research.. not take other peoples opinions as fact.
> 
> ...


:lol::lol::lol: I live in dread of the day then when chickens learn how to pull a trigger, not that I eat many of them, much prefer pheasant


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> :lol::lol::lol: I live in dread of the day then when chickens learn how to pull a trigger, not that I eat many of them, much prefer pheasant


i'd be stuffed (literally i assume, with my own hair or some sort of non-animal based stuffing material, certianly not down) as chicken is my staple meat followed closely by beef and very occasionally pork of certain quality forms.


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> :lol::lol::lol: I live in dread of the day then when chickens learn how to pull a trigger, not that I eat many of them, much prefer pheasant


I've never tasted pheasant only wood pigeon and rabbit. Is pheasant a dark meat??


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> I've never tasted pheasant only wood pigeon and rabbit. Is pheasant a dark meat??


It's a *white* meat, although not as light as chicken, and it can dry out if not cooked with stock, or covered when roasting. It's very tasty, but not as tasty as partridge, which I love. I've also tried grouse, woodcock, pigeon, rabbit, hare, goose and venison. Love all of 'em.


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Sounds delicious  I've seen them hanging but have never bought one. I think i'll try one now. May be expensive but well worth it


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If you want any recipes, give me a shout. Got loads.

I must admit, I didn't eat woodcock the way you're meant to, I ate the breast meat and some of the thigh meat, which is actually paler than the breast. You're traditionally meant to stick it's beak up it's bum (they have long narrow bills), and cook it whole, innards and all, just plucked. The innards you take out and spread on toast, but as I can't stand offal, could bring myself to eat that bit, fortunately, I know someone who loves it


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you want any recipes, give me a shout. Got loads.
> 
> I must admit, I didn't eat woodcock the way you're meant to, I ate the breast meat and some of the thigh meat, which is actually paler than the breast. You're traditionally meant to stick it's beak up it's bum (they have long narrow bills), and cook it whole, innards and all, just plucked. The innards you take out and spread on toast, but as I can't stand offal, could bring myself to eat that bit, fortunately, I know someone who loves it


Really thats interesting. I know what a wood cock looks like but never thought you had to cook it like that!! I suppose you could make a pate out of the offal


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> I've never tasted pheasant only wood pigeon and rabbit. Is pheasant a dark meat??


Pheasant makes a wonderful alternative to chicken in a pie & is IMO definitely a superior casserole meat to chicken


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

I bet the dogs will go mad when its being cooked  They drool over rabbit!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Pheasant makes a wonderful alternative to chicken in a pie & is IMO definitely a superior casserole meat to chicken


I think the majority of meat is superior to chicken, most of which is just tasteless because of the way they're reared. When you think of steak, the best steak to me is a nice well aged marbled rib eye, plenty of tasty fat, none of this lean crap.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I can see you are not looking for an argument, neither am i  just stating my opinion. Like i said i am happy that what i eat meats my own welfare requirements, You may not mean to jump up and down on peoples heads but that is what it feels like. Kind of "your way or no way" when actually i believe there are other ways. If you give people no alternatives or options i am afraid they tend to switch off, noone likes being preached at which regretfully is what it can feel like sometimes when someone is as passionate about things as you are  It is not realistic to expect everyone to live the way you must do if you truly make no contribution to animal cruelty
> 
> My point is you assumed we didn't know where our game came from and insisted it was cruely treated when infact if you read back most of us very much do know where it came from.
> 
> ...


people can and will do what they like i know that, but i just believe its important to know the majority of birds in shoots come from battery reared birds and 91% of them are hand reared, who knows maybe then someone reading this thread will do the research themselves to see if this really is an eco friendly meat that some claim it to be and nowhere have i said i make no contribution to animal cruelty, i said i try to do the best i can so theres no need to patronise me, i already commented on this thread about my life choices but im pretty sure everyone knows about vegetarianism and buying buav approved toiletries for example, again i only picked up on the game bird issue because many dont know what goes on.

sorry you dont like my style but hey ho you cant please everyone



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't posted previously on this thread that I've *condemned* commercial shoots, nor any other thread that I'm aware, I have however expressed my distaste for the way they operate.
> 
> I don't have a shoot, I'm lucky enough to have been along to a few, and know people involved in several shoots, so the information is first hand. I have yet to come across a shoot that doesn't raise birds in a clean and ethical way. The same as I have yet to come across a shoot where they operate in an unethical way, in the way they raise their birds, and the way they control the population of the wildlife within the boundary of the shoot. I might also note they have abundant wildlife on the shoots I've been to, hare, foxes, rabbits, deer, to name a few, as well as those pesky released birds
> 
> ...


if your birds are rehabilitated until they are truely wild like foxes then yes i hold my hands up because that is very commendable  but it is certainly unusual because the majority are a mass release of thousands of birds used to walking around looking for feeders and drinkers on the ground and are an open invitation to any predator, at least birds raised like yours do have a sporting chance.

you wont find any post of mine anywhere where i have said all hunting and shooting is unethical, even on this thread i have said so long as the game is truely wild and killed humanely and responsibly then i have no problem with it, but i dont think it matters what i say or what info i put on you'll read into it what you want too or dismiss it as bias

a couple of links of interest which have nothing to do with animal cruelty sites.. The gamebird code: what went wrong? | Shooting times http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/gamebirds/impact-assessment.pdf



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was thinking about this when I was out walking/training the girls, as an *industry* if you like, the way pheasants and other game birds are released is by far better than any farming method involving the rearing of birds, I think? If you could ask a chicken whether it could have a life of six months, raised in a cage, possibly a barn or free range if it's lucky, and know it was going to die at the end of that time, or whether it took it's chances, with the road, fox, illness, or getting shot, the answer to me would be obvious.
> 
> Obviously a chicken would prefer not to be eaten at all, but that's life
> 
> I'd be interested to hear your wider views, rather than just the focus on shooting btw.


deary me you always do this i dont see how comparing one inhumane act can justify another lol

pmsl i bet you'd love to hear some more of my views:lol:



owieprone said:


> rainybow, i know what you mean about shamen's posts.
> 
> shamen dunno how you do it mate but you always manage to get my back up.. i assume it's just how you phrase it which is no fault of your own really , that's obviously how you talk/type. you're right of course, not everyone on here has half a clue about some of the stuff going on in the world, and while i also find some of your links severly biased... it's up to us 'readers' to do further research.. not take other peoples opinions as fact.
> 
> we just have to mind that we can't see others facial expressions or know each other that well... pinch of salt, deep breath


blimey im starting to know how a fox feels................and i agree people should check things out for themselves but if no one disputes other opinions then some will just accept the one view as being gospel


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> if your birds are rehabilitated until they are truely wild like foxes then yes i hold my hands up because that is very commendable  but it is certainly unusual because the majority are a mass release of thousands of birds used to walking around looking for feeders and drinkers on the ground and are an open invitation to any predator, at least birds raised like yours do have a sporting chance.
> 
> you wont find any post of mine anywhere where i have said all hunting and shooting is unethical, even on this thread i have said so long as the game is truely wild and killed humanely and responsibly then i have no problem with it, but i dont think it matters what i say or what info i put on you'll read into it what you want too or dismiss it as bias
> 
> ...


I won't bother repeating myself about the commercial shoots, I don't like them, but they're there, the same as many other aspects of cruelty in our lives. I don't personally support them.

They're not my birds  as I've said, I've been a guest on a few shoots, and have talked to many of the people involved, and seen how they do things.

You see, this is where I differ in view completely from you, your view of truly wild, it just doesn't exist in this country. All animals in this country, except perhaps in remote Scotland, are exposed to human life, and become acclimatised to their presence. Depending on where they are, sometimes to a greater extent than others, there's still not a chance I, or any other person, could walk up to a released poult and pick it up, it's as wild as your released foxes.

What's the difference between wandering around looking for corn from a feeder, and wandering around looking for food, it's a food source. Surely it would be more cruel not to ensure they had food, access to clean water and were kept healthy?  They're not just released and left to starve, they are kept in the area by feeding them, otherwise there would be nothing to shoot.

As for comparing one cruelty to another, I am not sure what you mean? By comparing the way a chicken is raised for the table, or has a chance to life a *natural* life. It may die the day after it's set free, but it may live a long life, two or three years, as a bird already in the countryside would. So yes, I believe that this is definitely a better life, and a chance to live a more natural and longer life, that's surely common sense?

I would like to hear your views, but not just about hunting and shooting, I think everybody on the forum and any lurkers knows your views about that!


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I won't bother repeating myself about the commercial shoots, I don't like them, but they're there, the same as many other aspects of cruelty in our lives. I don't personally support them.
> 
> They're not my birds  as I've said, I've been a guest on a few shoots, and have talked to many of the people involved, and seen how they do things.
> 
> ...


i know theyre not actually 'your' birds lol, foxes are released when they can fend for themselves so of course its different from relying on humans to feed them, its like urban foxes people feed them so they naturally become less shy, and no i dont think they should be left to starve just as i dont think released foxes should be they should be rehabilitated to survive without human intervention....in effect 'your' birds arent the same as released foxes are they

omg are you saying that all the wild animals in our country arnt wild because we live alongside them?

theres no point going over the cruelties of the game bird industry, as ive said before i dont support the way battery hens are kept either, i cant choose one over the other because they are both inhumane imo.

yeah i think everyone does know my views ive had plenty of rep for them


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i know theyre not actually 'your' birds lol, foxes are released when they can fend for themselves so of course its different from relying on humans to feed them, its like urban foxes people feed them so they naturally become less shy, and no i dont think they should be left to starve just as i dont think released foxes should be they should be rehabilitated to survive without human intervention....in effect 'your' birds arent the same as released foxes are they
> 
> *omg are you saying that all the wild animals in our country arnt wild because we live alongside them? *
> 
> ...


Yes, (see bold bit) what I mean is many are not truly what I would term wild, some are probably tamer than a feral cat! The birds could fend for themselves, but what's the point of a shoot without any birds to shoot, hence the feeding to keep them in the area. Why aren't they the same as released foxes? Once they are able to fend for themselves outside pens, they're pretty much left, except for food being put out to keep them in the area, and other game keeping duties going on around where they may come into contact with humans, sounds pretty similar to me, except with the foxes you don't need to keep them in an area, so you don't put out an easy meal for them.

I'm surprised at your lack of understanding about shoots, I'd have thought you would have been more supportive of a more natural lifestyle for the birds, and the management of the shoot which makes a good habitat for many other animals. Yes, predators are controlled, but not eliminated, so many species have a chance to thrive, which is surely for the best?

I've had a fair bit of rep for my views too


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> people can and will do what they like i know that, but i just believe its important to know the majority of birds in shoots come from battery reared birds and 91% of them are hand reared, who knows maybe then someone reading this thread will do the research themselves to see if this really is an eco friendly meat that some claim it to be and nowhere have i said i make no contribution to animal cruelty, i said i try to do the best i can so theres no need to patronise me, i already commented on this thread about my life choices but im pretty sure everyone knows about vegetarianism and buying buav approved toiletries for example, again i only picked up on the game bird issue because many dont know what goes on.
> 
> sorry you dont like my style but hey ho you cant please everyone
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, (see bold bit) what I mean is many are not truly what I would term wild, some are probably tamer than a feral cat! The birds could fend for themselves, but what's the point of a shoot without any birds to shoot, hence the feeding to keep them in the area. Why aren't they the same as released foxes? Once they are able to fend for themselves outside pens, they're pretty much left, except for food being put out to keep them in the area, and other game keeping duties going on around where they may come into contact with humans, sounds pretty similar to me, except with the foxes you don't need to keep them in an area, so you don't put out an easy meal for them.
> 
> I'm surprised at your lack of understanding about shoots, I'd have thought you would have been more supportive of a more natural lifestyle for the birds, and the management of the shoot which makes a good habitat for many other animals. Yes, predators are controlled, but not eliminated, so many species have a chance to thrive, which is surely for the best?
> 
> I've had a fair bit of rep for my views too





RAINYBOW said:


> Shamen said:
> 
> 
> > people can and will do what they like i know that, but i just believe its important to know the majority of birds in shoots come from battery reared birds and 91% of them are hand reared, who knows maybe then someone reading this thread will do the research themselves to see if this really is an eco friendly meat that some claim it to be and nowhere have i said i make no contribution to animal cruelty, i said i try to do the best i can so theres no need to patronise me, i already commented on this thread about my life choices but im pretty sure everyone knows about vegetarianism and buying buav approved toiletries for example, again i only picked up on the game bird issue because many dont know what goes on.
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Shamen said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need to "research" i see things first hand so why would i rely on the internet for my information much the same as Sleeping Lion has said :confused1:
> ...


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

i want to try wood pigeon, need to find a nice recipe :thumbup:

i cant explain why i can shoot wild rabbits but like rabbits as pets :confused1: my mind simply seperates them

i grew up in a meat eating household apart mum who doesnt eat meat.

She says its nothing to do with the fact its a part of an animal, she just doesnt like the taste which is up to her


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

OK, although I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about game birds, the rearing of, and shooting, I also don't want to leave the answer open, with people reading and possibly thinking that *all* shooting is unethical. You see the use of 'all' there Shamen 

I was unsure of your reference to battery farming, but have had chance to talk to a few people tonight and can confirm that really, what you are talking about is complete nonsense. Birds are not raised in cages, yes birds are kept in cages, but that's the EU for you, the french will throw sheep at lorries to stop imports/exports, I don't see the animal rights activists after the French, as a whole for sheep throwing exploits.

What I have found out, is that eggs are imported, but not in the numbers you quote. What happens mainly, is that birds are rounded up at the end of the shooting season, and penned, so a cock bird will, unfortunately be penned with several hens. And under completely unnatural circumstances, because obviously a cock phessie will recognise whether his Barry White CD is missing, be forced to have sex and reproduce. Eggs are collected, and put into incubators. 

Poults are sold in one of two ways, usually. They are sold as day old chicks, or at eight weeks old, I'll get back to the sexually mistreated adult birds a bit later 

I'll do this backwards for a reason, the poults sold at 8 weeks of age, are put into pens, made used to their environment, and then released gradually, which includes feeding them and making sure they have access to clean water, outrageous!

The day old chicks, are raised in a shed, as many birds are, environmentally controlled, and are allowed, once mature enough, access to the outside world, much as free range chickens are. Again, they are fed and watered to ensure they are healthy, unhealthy birds are not in the interests of anyone rearing game, or meat, for the market  

So, what happens to those poor birds used to reproduce? Well, they're usually released back into the wild, and the poor mistreated birds that they are, live for several years. I heard a lovely tale from one person tonight, about driving up to the gamekeeper's house on an estate where there are game birds a plenty, roaming about, that have probably been doing so for a number of years.

Another anecdotal tale regarding the welfare of native species, the RSPB reportedly set up two cameras to keep an eye on two of it's hen harrier nests, in one instance the chicks were predated by foxes, in the other instance, the chicks were predated by a pair of eagle owls, a species introduced by the RSPB. 

Still think shooting is cruel?


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

no it sounds idylic:thumbup:


DEFRA nonsense.....

It is difficult to put a precise monetary value on the welfare benefit to the birds from the introduction of a code and this will be addressed in the work plan (Annex 1) by the development of a proportional assessment of the benefits of the proposal in terms of improved bird welfare. However the potential for improvement in the welfare of adult breeding pheasants and partridges, either by removing small barren cages and providing enrichment such as scratch pads and nest areas (Option 2) or by allowing them more freedom to display their normal behaviour by removing cage systems altogether (Option 3), is considerable. Current cage sizes for pheasant harems and partridge pairs provide less than 0.5 square metres floor area per bird with severe height restriction as the cages are generally less than one metre high. 

These birds have been bred to retain their semi-wild behaviour in relation to flying characteristics and thus may be more severely stressed by such close captivity than a domesticated species.

Pheasants are kept in their breeding housing for six months per year during the
laying season and are then moved to larger pens or released. They may be caught up again and recaged the following year. Partridges are generally kept in their pairs,in their breeding accommodation, continuously for two, and in some cases, three years before being released. The number of breeding birds currently housed in cages (estimated at 360,000 partridges and 100,000 pheasants), is a significant number in terms of adverse welfare effects on individual sentient animals.

The welfare benefit to the proposal would be reduced if a significant proportion of the farmers currently using cage systems left the industry under Option 3 and the shortfall in bird numbers reared for shooting could not be met by those farmers remaining who had changed to pen systems. The likely outcome would be that, despite encouragement to the shooting industry to use only birds sourced from farms compliant with this Code for their sport, the replacement birds would be imported from France.
The parents of these imported birds are likely to be housed in cages and, if the
French industry for production of hatching eggs and chicks expands to meet this demand, then there will be an adverse welfare outcome on the increased numbers of partridges and pheasants housed in cages.



and the eagle owl wasnt introduced by the RSPB


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> no it sounds idylic:thumbup:
> 
> DEFRA nonsense.....
> 
> ...


Posting and dashing cos I've got to get my girls out for their morning walk, but, the eagle owls were, in this instance, a pair introduced by the RSPB, on their land, that predated on hen harrier chicks  They don't publicise the fact very much, that they've released a large non native predator onto one of their sites, but they have. They do publicise that they've released purple herons, another non species, but that's not quite so controversial.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the cage thing, unless you're referring to an aviary type system, pheasants aren't kept in cages in this country, they are in France and Spain, but not the UK. They are kept in pens, a cock phessie is put with a few hens, pretty much as they would gather a harem in the wild, and then the eggs are collected on a regular basis. So they're not caged for any part of their lives, even as poults they are kept in rearing sheds, not cages


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Posting and dashing cos I've got to get my girls out for their morning walk, but, the eagle owls were, in this instance, a pair introduced by the RSPB, on their land, that predated on hen harrier chicks  They don't publicise the fact very much, that they've released a large non native predator onto one of their sites, but they have. They do publicise that they've released purple herons, another non species, but that's not quite so controversial.
> 
> I'm not sure where you're coming from with the cage thing, unless you're referring to an aviary type system, pheasants aren't kept in cages in this country, they are in France and Spain, but not the UK. They are kept in pens, a cock phessie is put with a few hens, pretty much as they would gather a harem in the wild, and then the eggs are collected on a regular basis. So they're not caged for any part of their lives, even as poults they are kept in rearing sheds, not cages


omg are DEFRA lying about this then like the RSPB are about the eagle owl

improvement in the welfare of adult breeding pheasants and partridges, either by removing small barren cages and providing enrichment such as scratch pads and nest areas (Option 2) or by allowing them more freedom to display their normal behaviour by removing cage systems altogether (Option 3), is considerable. Current cage sizes for pheasant harems and partridge pairs provide less than 0.5 square metres floor area per bird with severe height restriction as the cages are generally less than one metre high.

These birds have been bred to retain their semi-wild behaviour in relation to flying characteristics and thus may be more severely stressed by such close captivity than a domesticated species.

The RSPB: Species: Eagle owls in Britain


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> RAINYBOW said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should Rainybowbow!
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> DoubleTrouble said:
> 
> 
> > DT, we can only quote from our experiences in life and my objection in this thread has been that it was assumed the game i get is treated inhumanely which i know for a fact it isn't. I don't go to the shoots so am not relying on information from there i SEE the birds raised by my own brother in law and the ones i have seen have a SIGNIFICANTLY better life than the majority of chickens. I am happier eating one of my brother in laws birds than i am eating an RSPCA stickered bird from a supermarket because if you look closely enough at them that a joke.
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> DoubleTrouble said:
> 
> 
> > DT, we can only quote from our experiences in life and my objection in this thread has been that it was assumed the game i get is treated inhumanely which i know for a fact it isn't. I don't go to the shoots so am not relying on information from there i SEE the birds raised by my own brother in law and the ones i have seen have a SIGNIFICANTLY better life than the majority of chickens. I am happier eating one of my brother in laws birds than i am eating an RSPCA stickered bird from a supermarket because if you look closely enough at them that a joke.
> ...


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> RAINYBOW said:
> 
> 
> > okay i dont dispute that the birds you get are treated well, what i am trying to put across is that the majority of game birds arnt! and there is an impact of releasing all these birds on the environment in one way or another,
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Shamen said:
> 
> 
> > No because i have neither the experience or the true knowledge to make that statement and i do not rely on the internet for my information.
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The vast majority of game birds, from what I can gather, are raised in the way I've described. They are not particularly bright birds, a bit like the lemmings of the bird world, so great care is taken to ensure they have a happy and healthy life. It simply is not in the interests of a shoot to lose birds simply through bad practice, it would make them financially unviable, so you are wrong in assuming the majority of game birds are raised under poor circumstances, it would be the minority, by far 

Your quote from Defra Shamen, does not hold context, it does not say that all game birds are reared this way and this should be the improvements, it suggests improvements for birds reared in those circumstances.  I've posted quite comprehensively how birds are reared, from those that I know who shoot, and are involved with the rearing of birds, I have yet to come across one person who rears birds in cages, or keeps them in cages for breeding purposes. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as I've posted several times, you get good and bad in every walk of life, I'm sure there are veggies out there who abuse sprouts for instance 

So, are you not shocked by the RSPB allowing the release of a non-native species that then preys on an endangered and native species. After all, as you have posted many times, you can't justify one form of cruelty against another 

Also, you didn't respond to the posts I've made about the conservation efforts made by many shoots, to ensure native species thrive? Only yesterday, I was reading about one shoot, where they were weighing owlets, they've set aside a large patch of land (16 acres) as a traditional type meadow. As well as spot planting indigenous trees, again, to improve the environment for our wildlife. 

So, do you still think that the whole of the shooting community are cruel, and they should stop their evil practices in raising healthy birds that at least have a chance to survive, and doing that darn pesky conservation work to encourage native wildlife, good Lord, what are they thinking?!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> RAINYBOW said:
> 
> 
> > well i dont have to see cruelty 1st hand to believe it, if theres plenty of information from various sources out there than i tend to think theres some truth in it. At the end of the day i suppose some folk just choose to ignore certain forms of cruelty on a mass scale and some folk dont.....amen
> ...


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

just throwing this into the mix... taken as a direct quote from the very large pheasant and game farm nearby!



> The pheasant eggs and chicks are from Ring neck, Black neck, Melanistic or Michigan Blue species.
> 
> Each week from mid March, we send a vehicle to France to collect Red Leg partridge eggs, which are produced for us on an estate, where they bring eggs in from Spain each year, caught up in the wild, and then hatched in France as the parent flock, for the production of eggs the following year. The birds so produced are really wild and testing birds for the best of shots.
> 
> We hatch in excess of 50,000 day old chicks each week and these are delivered in our own vehicles throughout the United Kingdom. We also specialize in the export of game eggs and chicks, even as far as Brazil, Greece, Zambia and the Middle East.


50,000 chicks a week! including taking birds from the wild to be produced for game in another country.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

This is from a friend who is a gamekeeper, and gives a first hand account of how poults are raised 

Well we get our pheasants from a lady 30 mins away. The first thing of note is the distance. Young pheasants, like most animals, dont travel well; they get stressed really easily and long journeys can cause undue suffering, so it is important to find a local provider. We wouldnt buy in our pheasants from any further distance away from that.

The pheasants she rears are kept in immaculate conditions. Emotion aside, they have to be, as no one would buy them if they werent in tip top health. Pheasants are like sheep; the slightest bit of worry and they keel over! It is therefore not in anyones interest to rear them in any other way than a humane one. They are kept free range on grass runs, which is thought to be a more natural and healthier way both mentally and physically to rear pheasants.

At six weeks old, they make their way to us on the farm. The journey time is short for reasons already stated. They are never transported in extreme weather conditions; so driving rain and hot sun, as that alone can stress them out. We pick a nice calm and warm but not hot day.

In the meantime, we will have worked hard to get the Release Pens ready. A Release Pen is basically a HUGE, enormous run. We have three of these. Their total area is bigger than a football pitch. It is bounded by 7 high wire netting and an electric fence running all around its base to keep out predators. Every so often there are openings called pop holes, which is where the pheasants will eventually go in and out of the Release Pen at will.

The idea of the Release Pen is two fold; one to protect the young birds at this early stage from predators and secondly, to home them, just as you would do with many other birds such as doves, pigeons etc. The process of homing takes about two weeks by which time the poults are fully able to fly and escape predators. It would be hugely cruel to just release them at 6 weeks old onto open land where they will most likely perish thanks to Mr Fox, badgers and birds of prey.

The Release Pens include many drinks and feeders, trees and bushes to roost and space. Again it is so important to get the environment right otherwise they will get stressed. Space is really important.

After two weeks the pop holes are opened and they quickly find this out. They will spend their days in and around the Release Pens. At night, wherever they have wandered they always come back and roost in the trees in and around the area. It is my favourite part of the day, the early evenings, watching them make their way home and fly up to the trees making a real din. I will take my dogs out and walk round the boundaries of the farm to push the few stragglers home. The dogs do a great job searching for them and once theyve found one, will stand stock still whilst the pheasant gets up and flies towards the pens.

Gamekeeping is all about good animal husbandry and wildlife management. With the cover crops and feed rides weve added to the farm weve seen and delighted in return of a huge number of bird and mammal species. Many a day I can happily spend an hour watching the deer; barn owls; sparrow hawks and buzzards. Weve now got white egrets on the ponds since we started the Shoot three years ago, they are stunning.

We are not a big Shoot. Our bag (number of birds shot during a day) is small. We like it like that. All our birds at the end of a Shoot are taken 3 miles away to the Game Dealer where they are prepared and dressed. The next Shoot day they are ready for the Guns (those that Shoot on the day) to take home and put in their ovens. Our lunches are informal affairs and are always made from game shot on the land, be that venison, pheasant, partridge or pigeon. We have a lot of respect for our quarry, and believe that if you kill it you should eat it, otherwise it is a waste of a life.

After the Season is over at the end of January, we continue to feed the remaining pheasants. This is really important as the months of Feb and March are harsh and food is scarce. From April onwards the remaining pheasants are happy and healthy and wander around the farm finding their own food. In May it is a lovely sight to catch glimpses of the hen pheasants with their young ones. June and July we start preparing the land and pens for the arrival of the poults, and so it all begins again. 

I'll be getting some photos of these terribly treated birds a bit later, oh my, the shame of eating these birds that have had such an awful life!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> just throwing this into the mix... taken as a direct quote from the very large pheasant and game farm nearby!
> 
> 50,000 chicks a week! including taking birds from the wild to be produced for game in another country.


It is clearly a lucrative industry and like DT said there is always a dark side :frown: Much the same as chicken farming, now there are some horrific standards of welfare and noone can say they aren't aware of that given the TV campaigns over the last couple of years yet you still see Tesco shelves heaving with 2 for a fivers yet the Organic/free range section is tiny :frown:


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Shamen said:
> 
> 
> > You really aren't capable of listening at all are you
> ...


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> RAINYBOW said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Rainybowbow! Ain't that a bit OTT! IT ain't that long ago since I recall similar replies to Turkeylads posts ( who although I don't share ALL his views have the upmost respect for). The posse that persued him after that were relentless!
> ...


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> It is clearly a lucrative industry and like DT said there is always a dark side :frown: Much the same as chicken farming, now there are some horrific standards of welfare and noone can say they aren't aware of that given the TV campaigns over the last couple of years yet you still see Tesco shelves heaving with 2 for a fivers yet the Organic/free range section is tiny :frown:


completely agree!

However I dont think arguing that these practices dont exist is the right way to go about things. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of game birds in the uk are raised in industrial farms such as this. They can produce the overwhelming numbers to meet the demands of the sportsmen.

Arguing about whether it happens or not is a moot point. It does and its rife.

Ive just found another 3 large intensive farms nearby when i thought there was only the 1. Each of them producing a minimum of 30,000 chicks a week. Some raise the chicks to poults others sell them on at hatching but the principle is the same. Its a battery farm for game birds.

I enjoy game meat, but i choose the game meat for my table from a small estate nearby who breeds and raises their own birds from start to finish. I will however admit to taking advantage of the larger estates and shoots who bag far far far to many birds for the table and these go to my cats instead of being wasted.

Now, i am educated about the lifestyles of what happens, yet i still choose to exploit the excess birds for my own needs instead of them going to landfill. Very much the same as i will still occasionally buy supermarket meat rather than my ethical butchers if there is an especially good offer on. Its very hard to be as ethical as i would like to be, or at least the temptation not to is too great for my weak will. I suspect many others are in exactly the same situation!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> completely agree!
> 
> However I dont think arguing that these practices dont exist is the right way to go about things. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of game birds in the uk are raised in industrial farms such as this. They can produce the overwhelming numbers to meet the demands of the sportsmen.
> 
> ...


Thats kind of the point i have been trying to make hun x

I am not saying it doesn't happen but it is possible to easily acces game that has been treated humanely which is not the way it was being portrayed and TBH anyone who eats game is likely to know eher it came from because it is not an everday thing to eat to most people.

We are mostly ALL hypocrites, we mostly all exploit animals in some way or another which is why we should have a balanced view rather than a judgemental one.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> completely agree!
> 
> However I dont think arguing that these practices dont exist is the right way to go about things. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of game birds in the uk are raised in industrial farms such as this. They can produce the overwhelming numbers to meet the demands of the sportsmen.
> 
> ...


I've never argued that this type of practice doesn't exist, I've admitted openly on most threads that debate these type of issue, that there is good and bad, it's life I'm afraid. I've also said that I don't like the large commercial shoots, the one's I've experienced have fortunately been small shoots, that do have a positive effect on the environment.

But, just to counter what you're saying about 'battery farming' if you read how the poults are raised (see earlier post) they have to be done so in very well maintained surroundings, intensive possibly, but only for short periods. If they weren't kept in the right conditions, as said, they just do not survive, and it would not be a financially viable industry. Not the same at all as a battery farmed chicken.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've never argued that this type of practice doesn't exist, I've admitted openly on most threads that debate these type of issue, that there is good and bad, it's life I'm afraid. I've also said that I don't like the large commercial shoots, the one's I've experienced have fortunately been small shoots, that do have a positive effect on the environment.
> 
> But, just to counter what you're saying about 'battery farming' if you read how the poults are raised (see earlier post) they have to be done so in very well maintained surroundings, intensive possibly, but only for short periods. If they weren't kept in the right conditions, as said, they just do not survive, and it would not be a financially viable industry. Not the same at all as a battery farmed chicken.


by the battery farming i mean the eggs, where the eggs come from not how the poults are raised. Ive seen (and as a child in norfolk helped) with the raising, feeding, moving and releasing of the poults. As a general rule i have no objection to that side of the production. Its what happens beforehand.

I know many pheasant hatcheries are now using raised laying units. A cock and a few hens together in a wire cage. OK its inside, and the birds can at least stretch their wings, but it is very unnatural. Its the battery equivelant of hens eggs production. Overwinter most of the breeding birds are kept in closed sheds, similar to the way meat chickens are kept. High stocking density and no natural light. Again i dont like this side.










I do realise that not all the large commercial facilities use the same methods, like you i can only speak from my experience and the information that these large producers put on their web pages for advertising.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Some photos of those poor, terribly treated poults 

Poults at six weeks old, just arrived









Released into their *cage* 









Another view of their terribly confined conditions.....









Dogs inside the pen, that's a feeder behind









Twelve week old hen in the pen









And a twelve week old cock bird, they're just starting to be allowed outside the pen, and are feathering up nicely









'Dogging in', or going round the boundaries to gather up stragglers back in towards the pens









Well, this thread has really made me think, glad I started it. My views have changed entirely; off down the shops, they've got two for a fiver chickens and intensively produced eggs on offer, chuck out the old furniture and buy some handicrafted stuff from a guy who chops down trees in brazil to support his nearly extinct tribe, and I will be sporting a new wardrobe of sack clothing, what was I thinking!  :lol::lol::lol:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Pics reported to Bernard Mathews


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Pics reported to Bernard Mathews


:thumbup: :lol: :lol::lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Pics reported to Bernard Mathews


Darn, do I need to change my identity?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Darn, do I need to change my identity?


Change your name, fill the freezer with Norfolks finest and deny everything


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> by the battery farming i mean the eggs, where the eggs come from not how the poults are raised. Ive seen (and as a child in norfolk helped) with the raising, feeding, moving and releasing of the poults. As a general rule i have no objection to that side of the production. Its what happens beforehand.
> 
> I know many pheasant hatcheries are now using raised laying units. A cock and a few hens together in a wire cage. OK its inside, and the birds can at least stretch their wings, but it is very unnatural. Its the battery equivelant of hens eggs production. Overwinter most of the breeding birds are kept in closed sheds, similar to the way meat chickens are kept. High stocking density and no natural light. Again i dont like this side.
> 
> ...


Just noticed this, that's the problem though, unless we waited for an animal to keel over from old age, whatever method we use to reproduce and raise them can be argued to be cruel, as it isn't completely natural. It is a shame that these large commercial places exist, and I'm glad I haven't had any experience of them from the shoots I've seen and been lucky enough to go along to. What I do find annoying is the persecution a lot of hunting and shooting people get, because they're all tarred with the same brush, and whilst I, and others will admit, bad practices exist, as they do in every industry, it simply isn't fair to make a sweeping generalisation about the rest of them, and persecute them because of it. Whilst at the same time those saying how terrible it is, are keen to get their two for a fiver chickens, cheap eggs, and park their ar$e on a leather sofa that goodness knows only where the poor thing was brought up and died.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Change your name, fill the freezer with Norfolks finest and deny everything


Mmmmm, Bernard Matthews turkey breast roll, they're just sooooo tasty 

(Does that sound convincing???)


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Mmmmm, Bernard Matthews turkey breast roll, they're just sooooo tasty
> 
> (Does that sound convincing???)


Uck And double yuk wouldn't feed the reformed stuff to my dogs let alone put it anywhere near my own big gob


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Mmmmm, Bernard Matthews turkey breast roll, they're just sooooo tasty
> 
> (Does that sound convincing???)


Getting there. You might like to try some of the League Against Cruel Sports own venison, humanely killed by being stabbed and then having its neck broken


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Getting there. You might like to try some of the League Against Cruel Sports own venison, humanely killed by being stabbed and then having its neck broken


Absolutely agree, just emptying the freezer now of any game or that terrible locally produced meat from the butchers, I have well and truly learnt my lesson!!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just noticed this, that's the problem though, unless we waited for an animal to keel over from old age, whatever method we use to reproduce and raise them can be argued to be cruel, as it isn't completely natural. It is a shame that these large commercial places exist, and I'm glad I haven't had any experience of them from the shoots I've seen and been lucky enough to go along to. What I do find annoying is the persecution a lot of hunting and shooting people get, because they're all tarred with the same brush, and whilst I, and others will admit, bad practices exist, as they do in every industry, it simply isn't fair to make a sweeping generalisation about the rest of them, and persecute them because of it. Whilst at the same time those saying how terrible it is, are keen to get their two for a fiver chickens, cheap eggs, and park their ar$e on a leather sofa that goodness knows only where the poor thing was brought up and died.


agreed, there are always going to be good and bad, i have never said anything different!

However as important as it is to make sure that people know about the ethical producers they have to be able to understand the dark side of things in order to be able to recognise the good.

in any industry which surrounds animals there will be the ethical and the not. Just the same as there are good ethical breeders and there are puppy farmers. Anyone involved in the sport (myself indirectly included) NEED to be aware of where their eggs, and poults are coming from. Just like the person who buys a pup from a petshop needs to be aware of the practices behind the scenes that they are supporting, so do shoots need to be aware of what goes on in their industry.

I've never said i was perfect, far from it. I choose ethically produced game birds for my table, yet i still take advantage of the excess birds bagged on large commercial shoots for my animals. hypocrite? yes. I cant justify it other than i cant bear the thought of all that meat ending up on landfill when it could be put to so much better use.

The point is that at least i am aware that i am being a hypocrite. Many people involved in one way or another with the sport are not aware of how their birds came to be. Seeing them on the land they will be finishing their life, as young 8 week old poults running around lovely release pens is brilliant, but they started their life somewhere... people need to be aware of the practices that go on in some these places!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Maybe we should start a new club, hello,my names Joanne, and I'm a raving hypocrite, but at least I know it  

And, btw, the last sentence on my post was a sweeping generalisation, just in case anyone was wondering.


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## LaughingHeart (May 23, 2010)

This food thing.........................Simples!........................
If you don't like the look of it or the taste, or the way it's produced.
DON"T EAT IT!!
OK, own up. Who eats mass produced burgers, drinks fizzy pop, especially coke, has donas and junk food? Who's putting on weight and is none too healthy?
WAKE UP!! Make your own burgers with fresh minced steak and use your grill instead of the frying pan. Stay out of 'Takeaway' outlets and try some home made fruit drinks.
PRE PACKED....Go on, be lazy! Be fat, be unhealthy, or not! The choice is yours!
Just take a look at the 'average' American........YEH!...Wanna be like him/her?
Order a takeaway pizza now!

Good quality lean meat and fish [fresh, not frozen], free range chicken and fresh, steamed veg. No 'e' numbers, mononosodthestuff gloopimuck or chemical add ons etc. Fresh fruit, pulse, grain, rice, bulgur wheat etc, etc. It's all out there and costs less than takeaways, but you have to do some work!
Go on, pick up the phone and order then!..See if I care!...Hows your heart?
Paol, [on one!]


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LaughingHeart said:


> This food thing.........................Simples!........................
> If you don't like the look of it or the taste, or the way it's produced.
> DON"T EAT IT!!
> OK, own up. Who eats mass produced burgers, drinks fizzy pop, especially coke, has donas and junk food? Who's putting on weight and is none too healthy?
> ...


Chuckle, can't say I've never eaten burgers, fish fingers etc, but I never would now. Most of the food we eat in this house is prepared from scratch, and I grow a little bit myself. I really do not like waste, which is why my house is full of second hand furniture and odds and sods, even my crockery is Denby, from a second hand shop 

(PS except now obviously I'll be sticking to Bernard Matthews who produce lovely turkey type stuff  )


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

ok....

holds up hand...


had fish fingers for tea last night!






Better go put my head in the oven now


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> ok....
> 
> holds up hand...
> 
> ...


:lol::lol::lol: Was the holds hand thing up a play on words, fish fingers........

You can come and stick your head in my oven if you like, not sure how effective an electric oven would be though, and it needs cleaning.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> ok....
> 
> holds up hand...
> 
> ...


Oh no i had a burger :scared:, will go purge myself immediately :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Oh no i had a burger :scared:, will go purge myself immediately :lol:


And so you should you know what cr*p they put in those things
Rainy ate a willy, rainy ate a willy!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And so you should you know what cr*p they put in those things
> Rainy ate a willy, rainy ate a willy!


I just spat out my potato salad thanks to you :lol::lol::lol:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And so you should you know what cr*p they put in those things
> Rainy ate a willy, rainy ate a willy!


Whats one more!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Whats one more!


Look, I hate waste, stop making me spit food out!!!!

Shame on you lot :lol::lol::lol:


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Just seen this thread, interesting question.

I have changed my perspective so many time I honestly don't know whether I'm coming or going! I was vegetarian for ages, for health reasons AND because of what you say Sleeping Lion - I didn't like handling meat, didn't think I would be able to kill my own and thought it wasn't right to eat it if that was the case.

Then I went vegan after developing a lactose intolerance.

Then I delved deeper and discovered how hypocritical it all was and how impossible it was (I know some people do it but I'm not capable - it actually drives me insane) to completely avoid animal products.

Then I moved to the country and have actually got a lot closer to the meat production process and realised I'm not *that* against it all after all - I was just going along with some other people's opinions. And actually, yeah, I don't mind handling meat. If I was shown how to do it properly I could kill and prepare my own - I don't have to though because of the whole economy/skills trade/modern living thing we have going on but I suppose I'm more comfortable with the whole idea of the process.

I only buy and eat "happy" animal products and still don't have dairy obviously due to the intolerance but I'm less comfortable with the dairy industry than I am with the meat industry.

As for furniture... I rent so it's all c***. :lol:

Clothes - I just buy off the high street but now I can afford it I'm thinking about moving upmarket and sourcing more ethical clothing.

It's always going to be a compromise between lots of different factors e.g. what if the only place I can get "ethical" clothes is a 3 hour drive away, what about the petrol it takes to get there? (random, rubbish example but you get the idea).

Anyway, that was my 2 pence (probably more like 10 pence) worth.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And so you should you know what cr*p they put in those things
> Rainy ate a willy, rainy ate a willy!


Willies are ok not sure about the nobbly bits though :scared:



billyboysmammy said:


> Whats one more!


 Outrageous slur on my good name :lol:



Werehorse said:


> Just seen this thread, interesting question.
> 
> I have changed my perspective so many time I honestly don't know whether I'm coming or going! I was vegetarian for ages, for health reasons AND because of what you say Sleeping Lion - I didn't like handling meat, didn't think I would be able to kill my own and thought it wasn't right to eat it if that was the case.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great balance, much the same as my own. Sometimes the things you do seem like drops in the ocean but it is better than doing nothing


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Just seen this thread, interesting question.
> 
> I have changed my perspective so many time I honestly don't know whether I'm coming or going! I was vegetarian for ages, for health reasons AND because of what you say Sleeping Lion - I didn't like handling meat, didn't think I would be able to kill my own and thought it wasn't right to eat it if that was the case.
> 
> ...


Good Lord, have we got back on topic, lol. Great response, I too had a veggie, I hate everyone who kills animals phase, until my mother made my favourite tandoori chicken, damn her!!

It is difficult to weigh up *ethical* isn't it, sometimes it seems clear, at other times it isn't quite that black and white. I do my bit, I take stuff to the recycling bins as well, because they don't collect it where I am, but it probably still ends up in a landfill somewhere. I do keep paper and cardboard back to start fires with (in a log burner, just in case anyone was wondering  ).

I count myself very lucky to have the contacts I do, so that I can eat meat that's been reared locally, and even sometimes direct from the people who reared it.

It's so hard to track everything back to a point as well, where do the buttons on our clothes come from, shoe laces, eyelets, zips, etc, where they're all manufactured, it is as Rainybow has pointed out, absolutely impossible to be completely ethical, we can only really do our best, and of course that's where opinions will differ about what's best.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

A little bit more info from a gamekeeper on phessies, so it's nice to read first hand evidence that certainly not all shoots rely on the intensively produced poults, and I do know this is the sort of practice on a couple of other shoots I've been to, or where I've talked to people who work or shoot there....


It might be of interest to talk about wild pheasants. Pheasants as you may know were introduced into this country as early as the 11th century. For a long time after they were truly wild birds. I think wild pheasant shooting proper ceased to exist after the early part of the 20th century. You see wild populations have not responded well to modern farming practices. The amount of cover, protection from predators and food was vastly reduced and the pheasants suffered as a result.

From then on the population of pheasants in this country had to be managed to ensure their survival. It is interesting to note that since the introduction and adoption of the Countryside Stewardship in 1999; creating grass strips along arable field margins and providing insect-rich feeding areas for gamebird chicks  potential nesting areas and also buffering hedgerows from spray drift and suppressing weeds, populations of wilder pheasants have increased year on year. Studies have also shown that the numbers of songbirds, butterflies, bumblebees and other insects have done so also as a result.

From our own experience, each year we have bought in fewer poults. This is bcause the number of pheasants remaining after the shooting season have survived well throughout the years and have thrived on the habitat we have created for them. So we can now say that some of our birds are in fact wild.

An interesting fact on the numbers for you. 40% is the return rate that is the shooting industry average. That means for every 1000 birds that exist on a Shoot you would expect 400 of them to be shot. The remaining 60% survive on. Some will make it to subsequent years. I have one such fella, white tail (easilly identifiable), who is still down on the farm now. This will be his fourth year. Of course some of the unshot 60% will fall foul to natural predation from foxes, badgers, dogs and birds of prey from an early age or in maturity, such is nature.

Although you cant class the bought in poults as truly wild, they are far from pets. True they know the sound of my car; my dogs and me but they will not feed by hand from you for example and nor would I want them to, and they will also scarper quicker than you can say hi should any other person or vehicle present itself. Ring neck Pheasants and the like (non ornamental), cannot be truly domesticated, they are like guinea fowl in this respect whereby they retain, despite ones best efforts say, a true element of wildness about them. Of course just like other wild animals, and just as someone might regularly feed a fox in their garden for example, they will overtime get used to that routine and person but ultimately they remain aloof and ever ready to flee.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I bet almost as many pheasents end up as road kill as get shot.** They tend to be a bit dim in the face of traffic, bless them. 

** this is an entirely inaccurate statement.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2010)

ive been rather busy with work commitments so sorry for dragging this thread back to the surface:arf:

& apologies for causing offence i just get a little passionate about things and i have taken on board the way i come across, so i have put aside the environmental issues that releasing and protecting so many birds can have, because without independant scientific studies on the impact of predator control for example, by surveying the numbers of all predators from weasles upwards there is no way of knowing the effect random killings by gamekeepers are having.

so looking at the welfare of the gamebirds then, as Rainybow has asked me what are the most ethical places to source these birds, firstly find out where your eggs of poults come from, SL says those on her shoot they are imported well this = appalling intensive battery conditions for the breeding birds & tbh i only mentioned the cruelty involved in the gb industry in the first place because i thought SL felt so strongly about animals being intensively kept? but nevermind.
at the end of the day if people are truly concerned about game bird welfare its up to them to do their own research of their shoots and not just blindly accept what the gamekeepers tell them, dig a little deeper would be my advice. i accept the majority of us are hypocritical to varying degrees so its down to the indviduals conscience what they find acceptable, also SL i have no idea why you keep putting words in my mouth and twisting what i say with regards to the eagle owl lol

there, i hope that came across better its only my opinion i dont really mean to come on here to offend anyone, so this is me finished on this thread, for sure


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm a Hypocrite...I love Animals...Hate all Animal Cruelty..................But I eat Meat.....I know it's mixed messages


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

deb53 said:


> Anyhow talking about hypocritical I will not eat rabbit...Why???...because we have always kept rabbits as pets, from young childhood till now and I still even at my old age associate rabbit with being a pet


Do you know, I am glad there's just not me who feels like this! I've not read the whole thread yet, but just had to comment on this because it is so close to how I feel - and I too feel hypocritical.

I eat meat - but only some meat. Beef, lamb, chicken and pork are ok, for example, but I can't eat duck or rabbit becase I visualise the actual animals. How's that for hypocritical? I've tried to analyse why visualising cows and lambs and hens doesn't affect me in the same way, but so far haven't been able to come up with an answer.

I have thought several times of becoming vegetarian, but I actually enjoy eating meat. I'm lucky in that I can afford to buy meat and eggs from the local butcher who buys only from places where animals have been reared humanely - if I couldn't afford to do this, I think I would have to become vegetarian.

I have no difficulty in handling raw meat (except for liver - there's just something about the texture of liver that sets my teeth on edge) but - and again, I recognise that this is hypocritical of me - I don't think I could ever kill an animal myself - even a fish.

Excellent thread, Sleeping Lion - it is really making me question my values and beliefs. :thumbup:


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

This is So Strange I'm the same with Rabbits as I always kept them as a Child I Still could not think of eating one.

If also had people telling me that I don't love animals if I eat them But I DO

It's so difficult is'nt it? 

If you read my past posts on here you'll see I HATE animal Cruelity and would do ANYTHING to help an amimal BUT I Still eat meat :


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

If I could, I would rear my own animals...don't know if I could physically kill them as I have quite a sensitive disposition, but I could take them to be er...'prepared'. I have no problem handling raw meat and I'm very grateful to the animals I eat. I try and choose 'happy' meat from a local source too.


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## Vampyria (Dec 14, 2009)

Interesting topic! There have been some truly brilliant posts here, so I thought I'd throw my penny-worth's in:

I eat meat. I have no qualms holding raw meat, and like other members here I would possibly be able to kill, skin and prepare said meat if I was shown how to do it properly, and cause no pain to the animal.

I have always bought free range eggs and chicken meat, but all this is from the supermarket as there is no butcher around here. I would be much more comfortable buying from a local butcher as they'd have some idea where the meat has come from and how the animals were treated prior to death.

My sister is just the same. She has a 5 year old daughter and right from the start, my sister told her where meat comes from, and what types of meat come from which animal and such. For a while my neice went of certain meats (she loves pigs, so refused to eat pork), but I believe she will eat all meat again now  Its only fair to educate the next generation on where our meat comes from so they can respect it that little bit more.

I don't mind other things made from animals. My boots are made from leather, for example. I actually prefer that _all_ the animal is used, otherwise that animal has been wasted (this is just my personal feeling on the matter).

As far as household goods and such, I had never thought about it too much (never really replace anything unless its completely unusable), but after passing fill sites and factories that process this stuff each time I go visit my OH on the train...it makes one think. Mountains of wood and metal - and when the factories are working the hot, acidic, chemical smell pouring out of them is vile!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I eat meat and I have no problem handling raw meat. I would love to rear my own animals for meat hopefully getting some chickens to do just that along with eggs. I think if you eat meat then you do have to be happy to eat the animals not just some pre-packaged breasts or whatever from the supermarket. I've eaten rabbit I know evil and I've no issues with doing it again even with owning one. I do however try to eat free range meat wherever possible I don't agree with battery/intensive farming at all. I respect vegetarians that don't eat meat because they can't guarantee where it comes from but I could never not eat meat.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

I often wonder if the society we live in today is changing our perspective on animals for the worse, and how difficult it will be to rectify this.

It is quite common now for adults to 'not be able' to touch raw meat, and even not buy it unless in neatly packaged containers. Just look at the fact that many people throw away beef that looks brown - but this is the colour? The blood may have drained the redness into the bottom of the pack, but it's not off, yet many wouldn't dream of eating it.

Many have no true value of where it comes from (the supermarket right?) and imo are losing a fundamental part of being human. We are hunters right? Carnivorous mammals. We 'should' all be able to kill for our food, yet this is becoming rare. Whilst I am happy to handle meat, I would struggle to kill even a chicken, never mind a full grown cow, but I wouldn't exactly say that this is my own fault? It's just the world we live in sadly. 

What I wonder however, is whether this missing 'link' between animals and humans also heightens the problems we are seeing with animal cruelty?

I believe that the psychology behind being able to kill for our food, has a lot to do with understanding the part each creature plays in the food chain, and fundamentally respecting that animal. It's surely this lack of respect which ultimately leads to the cruelty, although I appreciate it's not this black and white. I just wonder if our attitudes towards live animals are linked closer than we think to food and our abilities to kill?

On another note - I have a lot of respect for vegetarians, whether they can handle meat or not. I think I am in fair in saying that most vegetarians truly appreciate animals and where meat comes from, and despite society making it easy for us to eat meat without being hunters, they still say no to it. That's more 'natural' than the rest of us eating this nicely packaged slab of animal imo.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I am a veggie but I dont mind handling and cooking meat for OH (not very often though)

I always buy free range eggs and whenever I buy meat for OH it is free range (mostly chicken TBH)

As for lifestyle....... TBH it has never really crossed my mind until recently.. I do try where possible to buy things from 'natural' sources, but I dont spend hours browsing packaging to find out 

Prob not a true veggie


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> ive been rather busy with work commitments so sorry for dragging this thread back to the surface:arf:
> 
> & apologies for causing offence i just get a little passionate about things and i have taken on board the way i come across, so i have put aside the environmental issues that releasing and protecting so many birds can have, because without independant scientific studies on the impact of predator control for example, by surveying the numbers of all predators from weasles upwards there is no way of knowing the effect random killings by gamekeepers are having.
> 
> ...


Shamen, will you please stop changing the things that I say, you know full well I don't have a shoot, nor do I go shooting, not even beating or picking up. I train my dogs to do a bit of gundog work as in working test, which doesn't involve game. The pieces of information I've posted are from a friend who is a gamekeeper on a small shoot, and describes where they get their eggs from, and how they raise their poults etc. I've accepted that yes, there are (as in all forms of food rearing) places that intensively hatch poults, however, you don't seem to accept that there are also shoots where this doesn't happen, they do get their eggs from much more ethical sources, where the birds that have survived the last year's season are rounded up, penned, and bred from to get the poults required.

I can't remember whether you mentioned the eagle owl first or not but the point was, the rspb allowed predation on an endangered species on one of their sanctuaries, by a non-native species, they have allowed to settle there, and yet the second any raptor is found dead, everyone immediately thinks it must be someone from the hunting and shooting fraternity out to poison or kill them, yet again, guilty until proven innocent as always for this section of society.

I'm not sure at all what weasels have got to do with anything, they may take a young poult or an egg, but I doubt if they have a huge impact on anything.

You also never responded to the counter evidence I gave about lead shot, which seemed to become such a huge issue suddenly.

You'll be glad to know btw, that I've also found an outlet to take the wings and a use for feathers for any game birds that make their way to me, so now I use everything excep the entrails, head and feet.

I'm not sure I like what you're implying about gamekeepers, are you saying they are all dishonest, that you have to set out to prove them wrong?

Anyway, glad you've decided to call it a day with this thread, personally, I'm off out to walk my dogs, see if they can eat some of those poor persecuted brambles along the roadside, surely brambles have feelings too


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if this has been brought up before.

I read daily on here from posters, stories of great loyalty re their pets and great acts of kindness, self sacrifice and service well beyond the realms of duty to keep alive all sorts of pet animal: animals sometimes that they do not even know. We also have people saving animals that have limited capabilities re intelligence or even being able to recognise their owners.

Yet when it comes to farm animals, which have been prove to be highly intelligent, highly sensitive, who are capable of forming close bonds with their own kind and their human keepers, there appears to be no qualms about killing them and eating them.

What is the psychology behind this?


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

Just in answer to your original post I am very much a ponderer about how my consumption effects other things. My mum says it's to the extreme and I shouldn't care as much as it would make everyday things like shopping much easier. However some things are more important than making an easy life. There are some brands that I will completely boycott, usually I get clothes and stuff from charity shops although that is equally about my lack of available money that I am prepared to spend on clothes as it is about recycling and generally trying to consume less 'stuff'. I look at what's in things, and look into brands and I dig and delve for information if I have to before I financially support it.

I don't eat meat, I've been a veggie for more years than I care to remember. It is a personal choice and I don't try to impress it on other people it's just that I don't actually need meat and I couldn't kill something unless I was in the scenario where there was no other way in which I could survive.

I am not into the whole concept that some people have that meat comes shrink wrapped from Waitrose. I think lots of people are detached from the process of what it looks like in it's former life and how it actually gets to the supermarket - many feel they don't need to know. That's right for them but it isn't right for me as I have an investigative nature and I tend to vote with my feet, if I don't like what I see or what I know about something I don't buy it. What else can you do? It's my mini form of protest 

However aside from that I do have a level of respect for people who actually use what they kill (humanely of course). I could not do it myself as I would not have any wish to take somethings life but I guess they know where it's come from they've killed and handled it themselves and they have used pretty much all of what they've killed to eat.

To me the crux is that I will not support cruel practices or industries that pay peanuts for people to manufature in squalid conditions to feed our (as I see it) all-consuming western lifestyles and our habit of 24hr shopping. I'd rather just consume less and especially when the VAT rise comes in I will be consuming even less - if that's possible (I don't think it is in my case).

Anyway it's an interesting thread and everyone very much to their own, what's right for the goose isn't necessarily right for the gander as they say.


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