# What is the difference between slip leads/collars and choke chains..



## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I think the only real difference it's how they are used 
A Check or Choke Chain is often used to correct a dog physically
Where as a slip lead is often used on a dog that can walk without pulling but is easier to put on and off when working.

I can't use a slip lead on my lot they would pull until they passed out


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Slip leads should NEVER be used on pulling dogs - if using them in that manner, then they create the same inhumane choking action that a choke chain does. The rope is not really any softer or kinder than chain when it is tightening around the dogs throat...

I use slip leads on Alfie, Blue and Harvey because they walk nicely on a loose lead, and I can easily have them in my pockets 99% of the time when they're offlead, but just quickly slip them over their heads when we're passing through fields with livestock. But I wouldn't dream of using on on Ozzy, who can pull and lunge from time to time, or Jake who too, can pull a bit when excited and he has a delicate sighthound neck. 

They're designed to be used to be easy on/easy off lead - not as an anti-pull aid.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Guess it depends how they're used. If they're just put on the dog in the hope of a magical cure for pulling then there is no difference imo, either will choke the dog just as effectively. 

Most people who use slip leads seem to use them for convenience with a well trained dog who doesn't pull. Most who use choke chains either jerk their dogs around or expect it to miraculously cure the pulling.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Both are tools, both can be useful, both can be misused.

Also in some cases, Slip leads are socially acceptable where as Choke Chains are not. 

There is really no difference if you look at their structure. 

I use Slip leads for all mine. The reason is - it's easy to put them on a lead. If they start pulling too much I can fashion my own head halter with one, meaning they don't strangle themselves and my arm doesn't take the pain nor does their neck.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There isn't a difference, and you can still check a dog on a slip lead. There are different sizes and some have a stop to prevent the lead becoming too loose. I've got rolled leather slip leads without a stop, if needs be, you can either form a quick halti to stop a dog pulling, or drape the end of the lead across the dog's chest, if it's long enough, as they don't like pulling into something across the top of their legs. But there's no better alternative to training.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Not wanting to spoil your fun but what if Spencer sees a tasty squirrel, will he not then pull, Ginge will walk lovely on a slip lead as its the only kind of restraint she was walked on before we got her, but that was only very occasionally. 

They are essentially the same as a choke, I soon realised how bad they were on those occasions when something took her fancy, she would pull until she near killed herself. 

Harnesses are the same as any tool when used correctly you can get a dog to walk nicely and are IMO the kindest thing to a dogs neck if they have any pulling power at all, even if only in extremis.

Its true, if you allow it a harness can encourage pulling, and will strengthen the muscles across the chest and neck to allow them to pull harder, but ninja now understands if they lead is attached front and back she walks nicely, if its just attached at the back she is free to pull my arm out the socket as we are on exciting smell walks .

Its like all these things though they take time and a bit of effort to implement .


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

IMO there is no difference apart from the material they are made from.


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

have you tried head collars ? (as in halti , dogmatic ect) these seem to be the best thing to help teach a dog not to pull


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I use a slip lead but make a figure of eight and loop it over Lilly's nose.
it works like a head collar then.

like this


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

hippymama said:


> have you tried head collars ? (as in halti , dogmatic ect) these seem to be the best thing to help teach a dog not to pull


Forgive me if I am wrong but I don't think head collars actually 'teach' a dog not to pull, they stop the dog pulling while they are wearing them. The only way to teach a dog not to pull its to, well, teach it 

They do offer a lot more control, especially for owners of very reactive and very strong dogs, but they wont work miracles once the head collar is removed they will likely still pull on a collar (I know there is bound to be an exception )

And for anyone thinking of using a head collar, please introduce them very carefully, as carefully as you should a muzzle, they are a very different concept and a lot of dogs are not keen to begin with.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

One's usually used by gun dog owners and is socially acceptable while the other is used by chavs and is an evil contraption.

I think they're both the same thing.


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> Forgive me if I am wrong but I don't think head collars actually 'teach' a dog not to pull, they stop the dog pulling while they are wearing them. The only way to teach a dog not to pull its to, well, teach it
> 
> They do offer a lot more control, especially for owners of very reactive and very strong dogs, but they wont work miracles once the head collar is removed they will likely still pull on a collar (I know there is bound to be an exception )
> 
> And for anyone thinking of using a head collar, please introduce them very carefully, as carefully as you should a muzzle, they are a very different concept and a lot of dogs are not keen to begin with.


sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like they will instantly fix pulling just that they can help and are kinder and more effective than choke chains ect , as you say they give you more control . obviously as well as training  but just helps them break the habit of pulling


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Can anyone tell me the difference between slip leads and choke chains?...
> 
> After nearly two years of being dragged down the road, I've decided that enough is enough now Spencer is strong enough to pull alot. I've always used harnesses with both dogs and tried all the usual walking to heel things, but never had any joy and had pretty much admitted defeat with Rufus. But decided to give it another try now I have them both pulling. *I read somewhere last week that harnesses actually help them to pull, and now I've read that, it's totally obvious!..*
> 
> ...


That was my problem with having a husky, he used his harness to push against, making pulling worse 

I then got him a lupi harness:



It worked wonders with my boy :thumbsup:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

hippymama said:


> sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like they will instantly fix pulling just that they can help and are kinder and more effective than choke chains ect , as you say they give you more control . obviously as well as training  but just helps them break the habit of pulling


I didnt really think you did, just wanted to make sure other people realised though, and used your post to quote .


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Sadly there are no short-cuts in training dogs to walk nicely on a lead at heel. It's lots of hard work and consistency IMO.

I only use slip leads for my dogs when we're doing agility, easier to slip on and off at a minute's notice. 

Rope slip leads can burn dog's necks just as easily as chain leads can damage the wind-pipe, so unless your dog walks nicely beside you and ignores distractions, I'd think about more training. :thumbsup: But I would say that wouldn't I.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

SammyJo said:


> That was my problem with having a husky, he used his harness to push against, making pulling worse
> 
> I then got him a lupi harness:
> 
> ...


I had one of these when Zipper was young - he just kept pulling didn't matter that the harness tightened he's a determined little sod 
Gald it worked for you though - when we find something that works it makes life so much easier 

I think it can be a bit of trial and error to find what works for you and your dog - Like I said earlier I can use a sliplead in a figure of 8 to stop Lilly pulling but Zipper would be out of it in a second he has a dogmatic - but I only use them when we are in a high 'traffic' area and I need extra control - all of mine can walk perfectly nicely they just chhose not to when all together


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Fleur said:


> I had one of these when Zipper was young - he just kept pulling didn't matter that the harness tightened he's a determined little sod
> Gald it worked for you though - when we find something that works it makes life so much easier
> 
> I think it can be a bit of trial and error to find what works for you and your dog - Like I said earlier I can use a sliplead in a figure of 8 to stop Lilly pulling but Zipper would be out of it in a second he has a dogmatic - but I only use them when we are in a high 'traffic' area and I need extra control - all of mine can walk perfectly nicely they just chhose not to when all together


I was wary of it at first, it looks fine on the JRT in the pic, but a 40kg husky is a bit different :laugh: I didnt think they would be strong enough, but it worked 

As you say, all dogs are different, if i put the lupi on my golden retriever she would probably cry and never look at me again :laugh:


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I agree with the others. I will use slip leads sometimes but only on my dog that walks perfectly without pulling. I do use them with my puller but ONLY when we are actively training, never when we are just out for a general walk or she would literally choke herself to death if she saw a cat or squirrel.


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> That was my problem with having a husky, he used his harness to push against, making pulling worse
> 
> I then got him a lupi harness:
> 
> ...


Surely this is just the same as a slip lead/choke chain? Except that it tightens around their chest instead of their throat - how is that any better?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I would only ever use a slip lead on a dog that walked really nicely. I have seen dogs being walked on these and the dogs are practically garotting themselves.

Have you thought about trying a headcollar? Your local vet may well stock the Gentle Leader, for example.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Wyrekin said:


> Surely this is just the same as a slip lead/choke chain? Except that it tightens around their chest instead of their throat - how is that any better?


Its different because it doesn't throttle the dog :laugh:

It doesn't tighten on him at all or I wouldn't use it. It only tightens if you push the cords together and push down the plastic thing above the dogs back to make it fit the dog (like a halti).


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Wyrekin said:


> Surely this is just the same as a slip lead/choke chain? Except that it tightens around their chest instead of their throat - how is that any better?


I had one - it didn't tighten fully like a slip lead more comparable to a half check.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I use a slip lead with Pippa. It is good for slipping on and off also as we do gundog training, it makes us look the part! 

I've used chains in the past - can be an excellent tool if used properly - although, unless you are sure on how to use one, don't use one. 


One thing I hate is seeing dogs pulling on slip leads and chains.


The preferred method these days is stopping everytime the dog pulls, it soon learns pulling gets it no where. All it takes is a little commitment, and the pulling usually ceases. If you have a particular stubborn dog, turning around too works really well.


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> Its different because it doesn't throttle the dog :laugh:
> 
> It doesn't tighten on him at all or I wouldn't use it. It only tightens if you push the cords together and push down the plastic thing above the dogs back to make it fit the dog (like a halti).





Fleur said:


> I had one - it didn't tighten fully like a slip lead more comparable to a half check.


So is there a way of adjusting it to prevent it from tightening too much? The ones I've seen haven't had this but they were used so could have been missing bits.

I personally do not like the stringyness of them. Just the thin rope like material must surely cause some form of discomfort to the dogs?

I use a dogmatic with a double ended lead attached to a harness for my big lungy dog. When he's walking nicely the lead is lose if he starts to pull the pressure is put on his head collar to bring him back and reward for llw but if he lunges I can put the pressure on his harness so he doesn't hurt himself.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I know the only real solution is to teach them not to pull, but what happens if you've tried and tried and tried but it doesn't make a bit of difference. My two are fixed on getting to the good bit so they can have their lead off and can run around. No amount of lead training or the tastiest of tasty treats makes a difference.


My dog is/was similar - walks are so exciting that at the start he doesn't care about treats. The only thing that has worked for him is being absolutely consistent that pulling on a collar/lead NEVER works for him. If I am walking him on the collar and lead then we do not move if the lead is taut - as soon as it slackens we move. It took a fair amount of walking round in circles in front of my house but he is getting much better.

I would never have used a slip lead on him when he was really bad as he pulled so strongly and also lunged that he could have easily injured himself. Now I do often use a slip lead as his walking is so much better and if he starts to get a bit keen, I can make it into a headcollar which just limits how much stuff I have to carry around on walks.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Wyrekin said:


> *So is there a way of adjusting it to prevent it from tightening too much?* The ones I've seen haven't had this but they were used so could have been missing bits.
> 
> I personally do not like the stringyness of them. Just the thin rope like material must surely cause some form of discomfort to the dogs?
> 
> I use a dogmatic with a double ended lead attached to a harness for my big lungy dog. When he's walking nicely the lead is lose if he starts to pull the pressure is put on his head collar to bring him back and reward for llw but if he lunges I can put the pressure on his harness so he doesn't hurt himself.


Yes, like the adjusters on a halti - nothing like a slip lead/choke chain.

I personally wouldn't use lupi on a short haired dog (because it is ropey) the husky has very dense solid fur, it doesn't bother him at all, it doesn't even go near his skin.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> My two are fixed on getting to the good bit so they can have their lead off and can run around. No amount of lead training or the tastiest of tasty treats makes a difference.


Mine doesn't get there if he doesn't walk nicely, it's as simple as that for me. If he misses out on getting to run around off leash then tough luck. I refuse to be pulled all the way there and then reward that behaviour by letting him off.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I don't use either slip leads or choke chains - ach! to the latter, has anyone put one of them things round their own wrist and given it a yank?, not for me. 

Never had the need to use one and never will, though back in my day they were DE RIGUEUR, nobody used anything else if they were 'training' a dog. I use ordinary collars on my dogs and never had a puller yet, but then my dogs view me as being in charge so politely step back and allow me to go first, if that sounds pompous I apologise, but that's just the way it is. I've never tried walking a Husky though - I would probably need to put a harness on and a belt round my waist to walk one of those. Anyway, I thought choke chains were 'in the past' rarely see folks I meet using one on their dog these days. 

IMO Choke chains, slip leads or ordinary collars can all be used in the wrong way, saw a hefty bloke with a German Shepherd hauling his poor dog round using an ordinary leather collar the other day, swung the poor lad right off his feet he did. He saw me looking and quickly walked away with a sheepish look on his face.


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> Yes, like the adjusters on a halti - nothing like a slip lead/choke chain.
> 
> I personally wouldn't use lupi on a short haired dog (because it is ropey) the husky has very dense solid fur, it doesn't bother him at all, it doesn't even go near his skin.


Are you thinking of a gentle leader? Halti's don't, to my knowledge, except in the neck area.

If you are thinking of a gentle leader the the clip bit on that is to stop it loosening too much so the dog can't get it off their nose.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Does he understands that? I've thought about doing that or just not letting them off the lead, but how will they understand that this is a result of pulling?


I think the point is that they quickly learn that taut lead = going nowhere and slack lead = keep moving so they learn that good things happen when they walk nicely and nothing happens when they don't.
I don't think that when I spent an entire "walk" just going round in circles in front of my house, my dog realised that if he hadn't pulled he could have gone to the park and had a run around but he certainly learnt that when he did pull it got him nowhere. 
He is still not perfect (probably because he got away with pulling for so long that he always thinks there is a chance it will work) but at least now he stops much sooner and even when he does pull it is more of a token affort...


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Wyrekin said:


> Are you thinking of a gentle leader? Halti's don't, to my knowledge, except in the neck area.
> 
> If you are thinking of a gentle leader the the clip bit on that is to stop it loosening too much so the dog can't get it off their nose.


Yeah that's the one, I had one for my GR years ago when she was a pup - same concept - the lupi one stops the dog getting out of it.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Does he understands that? I've thought about doing that or just not letting them off the lead, but how will they understand that this is a result of pulling? It's not like telling the naughty kids in the back of the car "if you don't behave we'll turn around and go home.." I don't see how a dog could put the two things together and learn from it.


I don't think they 'learn' anything as such, it just removes the incentive to pull. You're right you can't make the promise of a future reward to a dog, like you can a child. Your dogs may pulling to get to the park where you let them off the lead, just pulling out of sheer excitement, expecially if they pull harder and harder the nearer you get to the park. If you don't let them off the lead at all when you finally get to the park, it is supposed to remove the incentive for them to pull to get there, i,e the park is no longer a 'fun' place to be so what's the point of pulling.

Or you could try taking a different direction to the park if that's possible, try to confuse them a little, of course there will only be a certain number of times you can do this. Or, perhaps don't go to the park at all for their walk, try walking somewhere else occassionaly, that can work also. Or when you get to the park, find a bench and sit on it for 5mins or so without releasing them, until they calm down.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I've tried this method before.. Didn't make a difference. Weeks of stopping, starting, going round in circles with no improvement.. It just didn't click in...


I'd encourage you to buy Turid Rugaas' 'My Dog Pulls, What Do I Do?' Very positive and quite fast working method for loose leash walking. When I have the energy to use it when walking Kes she walks like a dream.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I'd stop thinking in terms of going to the park , or that lovely foot apth walk you've seen and for now think in terms of we have x amount of time we will go as far as the time allows, we only move when you dont' pull. It takes commitment it may take a while because i've let them practise pulling and it's worked before so they are liable to keep trying for a while.

I'd work with them individually so x dog isn't being penalised for y dog's behaviour it will make it harder

There are many methods you can use but the one thign you have to do is commit to it... by sometimes letting them pull and sometimes trying your chosen method you are setting yourself, your method and your dogs up to fail.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Does he understands that? I've thought about doing that or just not letting them off the lead, but how will they understand that this is a result of pulling? It's not like telling the naughty kids in the back of the car "if you don't behave we'll turn around and go home.." I don't see how a dog could put the two things together and learn from it.


No, they don't learn that they don't go to the park or woods or whatever if they pull. You tie it in with training so that they learn that pulling = not getting to go forwards, keeping the leash loose does. It's not a spiteful "right, you pulled so no off leash time for you!" it's simply not letting pulling work for the dog.

Just stopping or turning didn't work with Spen at first. I used the silky leash method to teach him to yield to pressure on the leash then the choose to heel method which we're still using. I fully admit I'm lazy when it comes to loose leash walking training. I don't mind a taut leash as long as I'm not actually being pulled. So I mostly have Spen on a harness, ignore the light pressure, stop if it gets to be real pressure and click and treat when he's in the right place. It's working for me, others wouldn't find it acceptable and would want it fixed quicker but I HATE training loose leash walking.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> I'd stop thinking in terms of going to the park , or that lovely foot apth walk you've seen and for now think in terms of we have x amount of time we will go as far as the time allows, we only move when you dont' pull. It takes commitment it may take a while because i've let them practise pulling and it's worked before so they are liable to keep trying for a while.
> 
> I'd work with them individually so x dog isn't being penalised for y dog's behaviour it will make it harder
> 
> There are many methods you can use but the one thign you have to do is commit to it... by sometimes letting them pull and sometimes trying your chosen method you are setting yourself, your method and your dogs up to fail.


This really. Set a time limit rather than a destination (I did 5 minutes several times a day) and just work at it.

Dogs can learn that one piece of equipment means one thing and another means another so I use a harness when I have to get from A to B or just want to enjoy a walk without worrying about undoing all my effort and a collar when I'm going to insist the leash stays completely loose. A behaviourist I had out recommended that to me with Rupert as there were times I needed to get to the vets or wherever and couldn't take the time to work on it. It's not ideal and I'm sure they'd learn quicker if NEVER allowed to pull but that isn't practical for me really.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> This really. Set a time limit rather than a destination (I did 5 minutes several times a day) and just work at it.
> 
> Dogs can learn that one piece of equipment means one thing and another means another so I use a harness when I have to get from A to B or just want to enjoy a walk without worrying about undoing all my effort and a collar when I'm going to insist the leash stays completely loose. A behaviourist I had out recommended that to me with Rupert as there were times I needed to get to the vets or wherever and couldn't take the time to work on it. It's not ideal and I'm sure they'd learn quicker if NEVER allowed to pull but that isn't practical for me really.


Snap, same here too and it was MV that drummed it into me.

As I said I just use two points of connection when I want nice walking, one when she can do what she likes.

We cant do walks to the vets yet sadly, but it was vital to me that I got there with LLW as I felt that she would be far less stressed with life if she could walk nicely. We did exactly what MV says we never set a time or distance limit and if we just walked round our little triangle of grass that didn't matter, gradually I moved it further afield and we are getting there, I even get it offered on occasion now!


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

This is the best headcollar i've used Headcollars - HoundStuff


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Any piece of equipment can be abused, and become something that causes pain, but in my opinion, many of the headcollars are uncomfortable for dogs, and rub up into their eyes, and/or cut round their muzzle too tightly. They aren't a teaching aid at all, they just prevent a dog from being able to pull because they are painful when they do. 

LahlLahsDogs, if you wanted to come up when I'm training my lot you're more than welcome. You'll see how slip leads work, and actually, once your dog is walking at heel and you're training, I find they walk to heel better completely off lead, not viable when walking by the side of the road, but it just goes to prove that actually putting *anything* round a dog gives them something to pull into, not just a harness.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Any piece of equipment can be abused, and become something that causes pain, but in my opinion, many of the headcollars are uncomfortable for dogs, and rub up into their eyes, and/or cut round their muzzle too tightly. They aren't a teaching aid at all, they just prevent a dog from being able to pull because they are painful when they do.
> 
> LahlLahsDogs, if you wanted to come up when I'm training my lot you're more than welcome. You'll see how slip leads work, and actually, once your dog is walking at heel and you're training, *I find they walk to heel better completely off lead, not viable when walking by the side of the road,* but it just goes to prove that actually putting *anything* round a dog gives them something to pull into, not just a harness.


I find the same too.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I personally dislike slip leads or anything that will have unlimited tightening potential around a dog's neck. 

I personally don't like walking dogs that might pull on a plain flat collar and lead either. 

The neck is a very fragile/sensitive area, hence using anything like this (especially anything that has unlimited tightening potential), especially so with dogs that are pullers away, is problematic for various reasons:

1. Opposition Reflex.
When someone pulls us by our jumper/ shirt collar, our instinctive reaction is to pull away. The same thing happens in dogs and is particularly strong around the neck. This response is also often cued with rehearsed pullers when they are walked on harnesses that attach behind (between the shoulder blades). 
Opposition reflex causes dogs to pull more against any resistance around their necks. When this resistance is a slip lead with no inner stopper, the neck loop will become tighter and tighter and soon begins to restrict the dog's airway.
Some trainers often use opposition reflex to wind their dogs up and increase motivation and speed in dog sports (flyball dogs in their harnesses etc).

2. In the scenario the OP supplied whereby her dogs began pulling less after several walks on the slip leads with lots of coughing, they did so because the sensation of tightening around their airway was unpleasant enough for them to resist opposition reflex. 

3. Collars and even more so slip leads are a very bad idea for use on reactive dogs because if the dog were to lunge forward at something, all of that pressure will go on one small point of their trachea. If the force with which they hit the end of the lead was strong enough they could risk damage to their trachea, neck and spine (I know of a dog with permanent damage to his trachea due to slip leashes and chain chains being used). 

4. Stress hormones- as a dog pulls or when they rapidly hits the end of a lead, they cause stress hormones to be released. The rapid chemical changes in the brain as a result of this and release of these hormones, causes increased reactivity, arousal and stress and impacts the dog's ability to learn at that time. 

I personally prefer to use front fitting harness (harnesses with a clip at the chest), with double ended leads. 

Reason being if a dog does pull on a front fitting harness:

1. Potential for opposition reflex reaction reduced. 
2. Avoids stress hormones being released and restricted airway. 
3. Re-orientation- if the dog pulls, because of the position of the ring on the harness the dog is automatically reorientated towards you. This gives you more opportunities for rewardable behaviours. 
4. Useful for reactive dogs- because of the front-fitting element- which allows you to teach the dog to turn away from triggers using minimal pressures and gives you more opportunities to reward calm non-reactivity. 

If a front fitting harness is unavailable, using a regular harness attached at the back to a double ended lead, with the other end of the lead being used to form a loop (double ended leads have two or more handle or length options) around the dogs neck so that it sits below the collar and on the chest. The loop that rests at the chest is what you use to give the dog but since this is fixed (not slip/does not tighten) you must have the other end of the lead attached to the harness for safety. This is commonly used in t-touch.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> There are many methods you can use but the one thign you have to do is commit to it... by sometimes letting them pull and sometimes trying your chosen method you are setting yourself, your method and your dogs up to fail.


This exactly! The main point my trainer made was that you have to set yourself up to succeed and never let pulling work. Which meant that when I didn't have time/couldn't face having this battle my dog was walked on a harness or with a gentle leader. They did nothing to help with the not pulling but they did mean that he never got to practise pulling on the lead. As I said it has taken time, probably because he got away with it for so long but it is really starting to pay off


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't think there is a great deal of difference tbh, if your dog is a puller they can both choke it. Although the slip lead may 'look' kinder it's still a noose which ever way you look at it! Not my bag at all either of them!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

No difference between the two IMO. 

Wouldn't use either as a regular lead/ collar 

But I do own a slip lead , which is in my car Incase of an emergency .


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2013)

Well it's all been said really. I am not a fan of slip leads because I rarely see them being used well (not to say they can't be - I just don't see it often!). I see many agility dogs choking themselves on them, which makes them just as bad a choke chains IMO


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Both slip leads and choke chains give you a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage on the dogs neck... Any force you apply will be doubled. Their action is the same and both can do a hell of a lot more damage than a flat collar. If you yanked as hard as you possibly could on a flat collar and yanked as hard as you possibly could on a slip lead/choke chain the dogs neck would experience twice as much force on the slip lead/choke chain than on the flat collar. A light tug on a slip lead/choke chain is equivalent to quite a firm tug on a flat collar in terms of the dogs neck but the human doing the tugging can then congratulate themselves that they aren't pulling _that_ hard. I don't, personally, believe that such a device _can_ be used "correctly"


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I know the only real solution is to teach them not to pull, but what happens if you've tried and tried and tried but it doesn't make a bit of difference. My two are fixed on getting to the good bit so they can have their lead off and can run around. No amount of lead training or the tastiest of tasty treats makes a difference. So far, this is the only thing that has ever had any effect on pulling... I feel quite mean, but it's a very short period of meaniness and discomfort and the problem looks to be solved..
> 
> As for still pulling when Spencer see's a squirrel or something.. This is another thing I'm on a major mission with. I've discovered that when Spencer has a ball, he's not in the least bit interested in squirrels. So maybe he can carry his ball whilst on lead and hopefully that will keep him amused.  although we only use the lead on road areas and never seen any wildlife there..


I guess I'm just stingier. We don't walk if they pull. We don't get let off the lead in good places if they pull. In fact, if they pull - we just hang around until they stop. If I'm in a rush and can't do that, Ringo has a front clip harness - and Rosie would have a headcollar - but she just doesn't pull now. If we want a quick run around with no loose lead walking before it, we go in the car!

When they were younger, my boyfriend always walked Rosie and he refused to move a step if she pulled, now she simply doesn't do it.

I always walked Ringo and he did pull and I didn't prevent it - but I did try and train loose lead, but when I wasn't actively training him I let him pull. He didn't learn to walk on a loose lead.

I realised this was silly and annoying so I adopted a zero tolerance policy. And we invented a word which means "you can sniff" as a reward if we needed a break. It worked.

If you really really really really wanted to - you could make them do it - it would be a lot of separate training - but if you're fine with it as you are then that's fine too


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> Both slip leads and choke chains give you a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage on the dogs neck... Any force you apply will be doubled. Their action is the same and both can do a hell of a lot more damage than a flat collar. If you yanked as hard as you possibly could on a flat collar and yanked as hard as you possibly could on a slip lead/choke chain the dogs neck would experience twice as much force on the slip lead/choke chain than on the flat collar. *A light tug on a slip lead/choke chain is equivalent to quite a firm tug on a flat collar in terms of the dogs neck* but the human doing the tugging can then congratulate themselves that they aren't pulling _that_ hard. *I don't, personally, believe that such a device can be used "correctly*"


Wow, really? What evidence do you have for this?

I would have thought a light tug on a slip lead, (although that shouldn't be needed on a well trained dog) would give even pressure around the dog's neck , whereas a firm tug on a normal lead and collar would exert all the pressure on the front of the neck where the trachea is.

In answer to your last point; yes it can.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

I cant see a difference between choke chains and slip leads, eg, when I was training some 30yrs ago we always used choke chains that was the norm then in those days, never hurt any of my dogs, apart from breaking the hair around the neck sometimes, now slip leads are the rage theres no difference, still strangles the dog if not used in the right way


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

samuelsmiles said:


> Wow, really? What evidence do you have for this?
> 
> I would have thought a light tug on a slip lead, (although that shouldn't be needed on a well trained dog) would give even pressure around the dog's neck , whereas a firm tug on a normal lead and collar would exert all the pressure on the front of the neck where the trachea is.
> 
> *In answer to your last point; yes it can.*


I agree. I don't know where tugging or yanking the lead comes into it? if anyone has to tug or yank the slip lead, their dog isn't the right candidate for walking on one.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> Wow, really? *What evidence do you have for this?
> *


Erm. Physics.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> Erm. Physics.


Surely Physics would give this... - ''a light tug on a slip lead, (although that shouldn't be needed on a well trained dog) would give even pressure around the dog's neck , whereas a firm tug on a normal lead and collar would exert all the pressure on the front of the neck where the trachea is.''


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2013)

I don't know nothing about the physics, but what's a bit of strangulation if your dog pulls?


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Well I've just put the emergency slip lead on Hugo and gently tightened it and if the dog is leaning into the pressure you get the same trangle on non-contact at the back of the neck as you do on a tightened flat collar. If the slip is pulled from the side at all, a more even pressure (at twice the force applied by the handler) is put arong the neck. A flat collar from the side gives a sideways pressure. It is something of a moot point to me as my dogs are not walked on their collars as I don't want any pressure on their necks if I can possibly help it and my actual point was that there is very, very little difference between a slip and a choke - while people who use slips feel justified in grumbling about chokes.

And how does the dog get to the point of "well-trained" to not need pressure on the slip to walk nicely? As far as I can tell the OP is discussing slip/chokes as a training aid rather than as decoration.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

dandogman said:


> Surely Physics would give this... - ''a light tug on a slip lead, (although that shouldn't be needed on a well trained dog) would give even pressure around the dog's neck , whereas a firm tug on a normal lead and collar would exert all the pressure on the front of the neck where the trachea is.''


How would that be possible? Seriously, you are pulling on the lead - the force means that the part of lead that forms the collar nearest you is pulled away from the neck (even with a stopper) - therefore the pressure is concentrated at the front. It can't exert an even pressure - that isn't possible , you would need an equal force pushing against you on the lead at the back of the dogs neck.

I don't think a slip lead is an appropriate training tool if your dog pulls - it is just strangling them in that case and more recent studies (i.e over the last 20 years!) of dog anatomy shows that a dog's neck is not particularly robust and that checking and pulling can cause long term damage.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

L/C said:


> How would that be possible? Seriously, you are pulling on the lead - the force means that the part of lead that forms the collar nearest you is pulled away from the neck (even with a stopper) - therefore the pressure is concentrated at the front. It can't exert an even pressure - that isn't possible , you would need an equal force pushing against you on the lead at the back of the dogs neck.
> 
> *I don't think a slip lead is an appropriate training tool if your dog pulls* - it is just strangling them in that case and more recent studies (i.e over the last 20 years!) of dog anatomy shows that a dog's neck is not particularly robust and that checking and pulling can cause long term damage.


But it's not a training tool; it's perfectly designed to get a dog back on lead damn quick if needed. A normal collar can cause as much, if not more, damage if the dog pulls. If you can't train a dog to walk nicely on a lead, use a harness.

Hey, cheese can be cruel if too much is used in the process of training a dog with treats. Maybe that's why there are so many fat dogs about (and people to be honest)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think you have to be sensible as well, slip leads are not suitable for the build of some breeds who have a much slimmer less muscled neck if that dog is going to pull. In general, they aren't suitable for any dog that pulls, but you are always going to make some contact with any lead of any kind, so using that argument, no lead/collar is suitable. Again, it's being sensible, my dogs don't always walk perfectly to heel, I don't ask them or expect them to 100% of the time, but when I do want them to, I expect the lead to be completely loose. 

If a slip lead is only making contact at the front of the neck then it's not a very good slip lead, it's more like a non-slip lead


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

L/C said:


> How would that be possible? Seriously, you are pulling on the lead - the force means that the part of lead that forms the collar nearest you is pulled away from the neck (even with a stopper) - therefore the pressure is concentrated at the front. It can't exert an even pressure - that isn't possible , you would need an equal force pushing against you on the lead at the back of the dogs neck.
> 
> I don't think a slip lead is an appropriate training tool if your dog pulls - it is just strangling them in that case and more recent studies (i.e over the last 20 years!) of dog anatomy shows that a dog's neck is not particularly robust and that checking and pulling can cause long term damage.


The pressure is spread around the whole neck - not just the front like a flat collar.

I agree with your last statement.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> But it's not a training tool; it's perfectly designed to get a dog back on lead damn quick if needed. A normal collar can cause as much, if not more, damage if the dog pulls. If you can't train a dog to walk nicely on a lead, use a harness.


But the OP _is_ using a slip lead as a training lead on dogs who pull.

I just dug out the old choke chain I still have and checked myself the way I was taught. The pain and the bruise it's left is on the underside of my arm, nothing on the side away from my body, nothing on top, all underneath. I would think the same holds true for a dogs neck. And I would guess that the throat is FAR more sensitive than my arm. Perhaps all the pressure is equal but what pressure doesn't hurt in one part of your body can be agonising in another. Just my opinion, I'm certainly no scientist.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I'm not.... I didn't intentially buy it to strangle my dogs into not pulling. I bought it because it was soft and thought it'd be better than having a lead attached to a collar. Easy to put on/take off, and made from a material that wouldn't rub Rufus. I didn't buy it to use as a training tool. I expected to buy a normal lead and continue with the lead training techniques I have been trying (without success) for the last two years nearly.


But intentional or not I'm afraid it's what you've done. You put a slip leash on dogs who pull and the strangling sensation/pain is what's stopped them pulling. It might not have been what you intended but it's what's happened.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

dandogman said:


> *The pressure is spread around the whole neck - not just the front like a flat collar.*
> 
> I agree with your last statement.


It isn't - that isn't possible. For the pressure to be spread equally around the neck force would have to be applied from multiple places. The only way it can spread pressure across the whole neck is if it is continually tightening - like a noose.

I have no problem with slip leads used in a reasonable manner - I use one myself when training. I do have a problem with them being used as a training tool (a la the OP) and with the laws of physics being misrepresented. 

Pulling on the lead, jerking your dog, exerting continual pressure and force on your dog's neck can lead to injury. Neck and back injuries in dogs are also linked quite strongly to behavioural issues which is correlated to pain and thyroid dysfunction (damage to the thyroid can cause hypothyroidism - this is clearly proven in both dogs and humans, hypothyroidism can cause aggression).

This is a complete online version of one of the studies considered to be the most comprehensive. I have links to others but they are abstract only and so less useful.

Again - no problem with slip leads but there is no context in which jerking/checking, allowing your dog to pull etc is not a risk of injury. It doesn't matter how muscular the dogs neck - indeed Sarah Fisher presented some interesting evidence at a seminar I attended suggesting that one reason pitbulls and aggression are linked in the states is due to the amount that are chained in the yard. There is a link between being chained by the neck and thyroid dysfunction, pitbulls present with a higher rate of thyroid issues then other breeds. If it is trauma based hypothyroidism then that would suggest that no matter how muscular a neck that damage is being done. Now this is the collection of data from several studies and there isn't a conclusive link but it is certainly thought provoking.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Be interesting to see if they continue the good walking with their old collars or revert back to pulling! I don't think you've done anything wrong, nobody intentially goes out to harm their dog, their are far worse methods people do use on purpose!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Maybe so... but this was all done in a two minute walk, no lasting effects, they're both happy to have the leads back on (infact Spencer launches himself into it like he did with his harness), they're still happy dogs. Ok we had a couple of minutes of "omg, what have I done?".. but since then everything is rosey. Imo, that's not such a problem really. I wouldn't go telling everyone to go buy a slip lead to teach their dog to walk nicely, but for me it has very quickly and effectively solved the problem with no ill effects.


Well if you're fine with what you've done then fair enough. For me the means matters just as much as the end result and so it's not a route I'd go down personally but each to their own.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Be interesting to see if they continue the good walking with their old collars or revert back to pulling! I don't think you've done anything wrong, nobody intentially goes out to harm their dog, their are far worse methods people do use on purpose!


But that's exactly the problem - slip leads 'seem' ok and people don't stop to think that really they're no better than a choke chain! I'm sure LahLah would never dream of using a choke chain, but slip leads are acceptable for some reason. So dogs end up unintentionally hurt through ignorance.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

From what I see slip leads tend to be used on well trained dogs and check chains in the hope of training a dog..!

Both can be used to check so the principle is the same, its just what they're made from. Most gun folk I know use slip leads but they also have very well trained dogs. Rupert gets on well with a slip lead but its so built up around here I don't use one. Always have them by the door or in the car in case of emergency though. I think people think slip leads are more acceptable but they are just the same. I'm happy to admit I use one though because I know I use it in what I deem is an acceptable way.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> I think people think slip leads are more acceptable but they are just the same.


I have met a couple with a 5 month old puppy a few times who they have on a slip lead (no collar or tag ) who bounces around all over the place on the lead. I hate to think the damage they are potentially doing to this poor pup


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Ok, it's not the best way to get to a dog who walks nicely.. there are better ways (non of which have worked before now) I get that. But, I have no option but to be fine with what has happened. This was done accidently, so I could either spend my time worrying about it and feeling terrible (despite having two happy dogs that don't care).. or I could just draw a line over it and be happy that I have two dogs who don't drag me down the road though.
> 
> Maybe if i'd of gone out with the intention of making my dogs uncomfortable, maybe then I should take a long hard look at myself.. But that is not the case.


You are getting a bit of a hard time here - what's done is done and it's not like they're still pulling on them. You didn't intend to hurt them, it was pure ignorance. Now you know better and hopefully a lot of people reading this thread know better too


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> I have met a couple with a 5 month old puppy a few times who they have on a slip lead (no collar or tag ) who bounces around all over the place on the lead. I hate to think the damage they are potentially doing to this poor pup


:nonod:

What annoys me most is people who think its OK for a dog to pull on a flat collar. Its still bad for the dog, I wish people understood the need to teach dogs to walk to heel full stop. Milo is a puller, but I think for the majority of dogs out there you can teach them to not pull from pups. Some are more difficult but I think some times people just aren't interested (like who you saw, they just haven't read into anything have they ).

Milo came at 16 months in a check chain, its still in the cupboard because all he came with was that, a lead, and an old ice cream tub with a few biscuits in! Never been used because he's a puller but don't really want to chuck it out.

I do love slip leads I think they're great. Don't think they are suitable for a lot of dogs though. Like I said out of my two only Rupert would ever go in one.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

McKenzie said:


> But that's exactly the problem -* slip leads 'seem' ok and people don't stop to think that really they're no better than a choke chain*! I'm sure LahLah would never dream of using a choke chain, but slip leads are acceptable for some reason. So dogs end up unintentionally hurt through ignorance.


Slip leads. The best and safest leads for your dog.

Everyone has needed, on some occasion, to get their dog on lead pronto. In the middle of winter when you're wearing gloves and your fingers are numb it's the simplest way to get your dog back under your control. No fiddling about with cold metal clips.

Any type of collar will cause damage if continually yanked. Making the lazy association between slip leads and neck injuries in dogs is, quite simply, wrong. No evidence.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

samuelsmiles said:


> Slip leads. The best and safest leads for your dog.
> 
> Everyone has needed, on some occasion, to get their dog on lead pronto. In the middle of winter when you're wearing gloves and your fingers are numb it's the simplest way to get your dog back under your control. No fiddling about with cold metal clips.
> 
> Any type of collar will cause damage if continually yanked. Making the lazy association between slip leads and neck injuries in dogs is, quite simply, wrong. No evidence.


Where is your evidence then that slip leads are the best and safest leads for your dog? 
"Best and safest" is a bit absolute wouldn't you say? Absolutes in dog training have a way of biting you in the butt 

I'm thinking a slip lead, in any capacity, would not be either "best" or "safest" for a dog with mega-E, collapsed trachea, laryngeal paralysis, wobblers...


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

samuelsmiles said:


> Slip leads. The best and safest leads for your dog.
> 
> Everyone has needed, on some occasion, to get their dog on lead pronto. In the middle of winter when you're wearing gloves and your fingers are numb it's the simplest way to get your dog back under your control. No fiddling about with cold metal clips.
> 
> Any type of collar will cause damage if continually yanked. Making the lazy association between slip leads and neck injuries in dogs is, quite simply, wrong. No evidence.


I think that depends on your dog. My dog hates having things put over her head, and if I try to put a slip lead on her she would not make it easy. If I need to get my dog under control I will either pick her up or make her sit so I can put her lead on. So no, it's not the best or the safest lead for my dog.

Have you read this thread? Lots of people have provided evidence about how slip leads can cause neck injuries. Yes, a dog on a flat collar that is constantly yanked could be hurt, but that same dog on a slip lead that is constantly yanked is likely to suffer much worse damage.

Do you, or would you, use a choke chain on your dog?


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

I think slip leads can be extremely useful in some situations when you need to get a lead on your dog quickly, they use them at the daycare we send Izzy to and I dont have a problem with that. 

I wouldnt feel happy using them as a training tool on a dog that pulls though, they are no different to a choke chain and if I had major problems with Izzy pulling I would look at using either a head collar or a front attaching harness combined with training.

It took a good 3/4 months for Izzy to walk nicely on the lead, we used a specific collar and lead set when we were doing loose lead training. If we were going somewhere exciting where I knew she would pull then I didnt set her up to fail and would drive us there or if away from main roads would use a harness and flexi so she could associate that specific collar/lead with walking nicely. 

With the actual training if she pulled I turned and walked the other way (standing still didnt work for us as she would quite happily just potter around at my feet sniffing everything so the stopping was almost like a reward to her for pulling). At first we would never get very far but gradually the pulling lessened in frequency and now is very rare and she on the whole walks beautifully. The way I hold my lead I think helps, I kind of loop it so I have a firm hold of it but also have a small loop of the lead which I hold between my thumb and forefinger so I could feel even the slightest pressure/tightening of the lead and change direction.

OP I see you are happy with the results you have got from the slip lead but are you 100% confident they wont pull or lunge at something they see over the road (cat/squirrel etc). It could really hurt them


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Ok, it's not the best way to get to a dog who walks nicely.. there are better ways (non of which have worked before now) I get that. But, I have no option but to be fine with what has happened. *This was done accidently, *so I could either spend my time worrying about it and feeling terrible (despite having two happy dogs that don't care).. or I could just draw a line over it and be happy that I have two dogs who don't drag me down the road now.
> 
> Maybe if i'd of gone out with the intention of making my dogs uncomfortable, maybe then I should take a long hard look at myself.. But that is not the case.


I cant agree it was an 'accident', ignorance yes, and thats not me having a dig, before everyone gets up in arms. What I mean you didn't realise the damage a slip lead could potentially have 'in your circumstance' because you didn't think or research it before you used it, something we are all guilty of on occasion I am sure, i know I have been. But even if you had you would have likely found lots of positive spin about them.

Yes whats done is done but that doesn't mean to say that we should all say 'oh well never mind', personally I believe dogs should be trained/walked on a harness as there is so much less chance of potentially fatal damage being done in extreme circumstances, and hell my dog is proof that you can teach LLW on one, sure its not perfect yet but we are getting there, I am under no illusion that the lack of perfection is because I am not consistent with the training.

However my personal opinion and the OP's experience aside, the fact remains, and I don't think any of those who do use slip leads and advocate the use of them would disagree. They should *never *be used on a dog who pulls, as the potential for damage is just too huge, that choking cough the OP heard was the dogs trachea being squashed, try it on yourself, its not a pleasant experience.

In that situation they are no different to the use of a choke chain which is what the OP was asking.

I just feel that needs to be made clear for anyone else reading this.

As for getting your dog on lead quick, any lead can be made into a temporary slip lead if need be, I used to carry my standard lead with the straight end looped through the handle for that very reason, so I could easily, for convenience to me, not through need, slip it over my old dogs head when approached by another person or dog to give re-assurance, he was also walked on a harness.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

I know this is slightly off topic but it's just got me thinking.. is damage caused by pulling always apparent? Or can there be damage that you don't realise?
I've been known to let Tia pull when she's been on a normal flat collar when she was younger because I didn't really realise the potential for damage (I don't anymore, she's been walked on a harness for ages now and has recently got the hang of LLW  ) but I feel worried that it may have hurt her now and I never had the guts to ask before in case everyone shouted at me..


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> I know this is slightly off topic but it's just got me thinking.. is damage caused by pulling always apparent? Or can there be damage that you don't realise?
> I've been known to let Tia pull when she's been on a normal flat collar when she was younger because I didn't really realise the potential for damage (I don't anymore, she's been walked on a harness for ages now and has recently got the hang of LLW  ) but I feel worried that it may have hurt her now and I never had the guts to ask before in case everyone shouted at me..


Its not always apparent right away, no. I wouldn't worry too much with whats done, millions of people get away with it, but there are also thousands who don't and that is the point of the warning.

Imagine if you wore a collar, and some one pulled it or you pulled away, it would hurt and choke you, you would have the sense to say 'ok ok, I will stop', but a dogs opposition reflex means they will often pull harder (its why flexis arent a good training aid either, the dogs collar is under constant, if only slight pressure whenever its releases and straining against the spring) that can cause a collapse trachea, it can cause damage that only becomes apparent as they get older. Imagine if the pressure is applied every day it will get weaker and weaker. Damage to the spine if extreme might be obvious straight away, but can be accumulative.

This is interesting and explains lots of the potential reasons any restraint around the dogs neck is not good (this is only my opinion as well as that of many others )
Dogmantics Dog Training Blog: Is it harmful to attach a leash to your dog's neck?

A little extract from this article which illustrates the reason .....

_Yes, perhaps there is a dog out there, that will never ever pull suddenly towards a smell in a bush, food on the ground, an old friend or another dog. But there might be some time in that dogs life that the dog might need to be pulled, perhaps a car mounts the sidewalk and you need to jerk your dog out of the way or perhaps a car back fires and your dog runs forward. We would never attach a leash to a childs neck to keep him safe, why would we attach a leash to a dogs throat when there is the option of a harness. In the same way a humans neck could get severely damaged if we fell forward onto a collar attached to a lead, a dog can suffer the same harm. _


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks.. I know you're not going to get everything right with a first dog but I'm really p*ssed off with myself about that.. I totally get why it's harmful now, I just never realised at first. So there could be something wrong but it just isn't obvious? That just makes me want to cry tbh.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> Thanks.. I know you're not going to get everything right with a first dog but I'm really p*ssed off with myself about that.. I totally get why it's harmful now, I just never realised at first. So there could be something wrong but it just isn't obvious? That just makes me want to cry tbh.


Please dont  there is very little likelihood and if there is you wont know for years hopefully so just enjoy her, you know now and can do the best cant you!.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I personally wouldnt walk any dog on a slip lead as standard. Especially not a monster like mine- his pulling is just mad at times, and although he has a fat arsed neck I reckon he would do himself an injury. Other dogs? even those who walk perfectly? I still wouldnt because of the chance that they suddenly see a squirrel and lunge towards it at warp speed 9, hitting what is effectively a noose around their neck with force......


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Where is your evidence then that slip leads are the best and safest leads for your dog?
> "Best and safest" is a bit absolute wouldn't you say? Absolutes in dog training have a way of biting you in the butt
> 
> I'm thinking a slip lead, in any capacity, would not be either "best" or "safest" for a dog with mega-E, collapsed trachea, laryngeal paralysis, wobblers...


If a dog has a collapsed trachea, then any, or all collars will not be suitable if used incorrectly.

I'm thinking a normal collar, in any capacity, when yanked, will have the same, if not more adverse affect on a dogs' throat area.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> I personally wouldnt walk any dog on a slip lead as standard. Especially not a monster like mine- his pulling is just mad at times, and although he has a fat arsed neck I reckon he would do himself an injury. Other dogs? even those who walk perfectly? *I still wouldnt because of the chance that they suddenly see a squirrel and lunge towards it at warp speed 9, hitting what is effectively a noose around their neck with force*......


Ah, but I'm sure every owner knows what their dog is or isn't capable of. My Labrador is one of those dogs who walks perfectly on the lead. He is 10 years old and I can categorically say he has zero interest in lunging after anything, thus is the perfect candidate for walking on a slip lead.

Any tool can be abused and it isn't the fault of tool but the person on the end of it. I've seen dogs lunging into slip leads sure, but I've also seen dogs choking themselves on regular collars, young puppies/dogs pulling like freight trains into terribly designed harnesses and countless dogs with terribly fitted head collars.

Slip leads were NEVER designed to stop pulling, but to have a 'handle' on working gundogs who do not require a collar for safety. It just seems that they have caught on as a training tool to stop pulling, possibly thanks to the likes of Cesar Millan who advocate them?


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

samuelsmiles said:


> If a dog has a collapsed trachea, then any, or all collars will not be suitable if used incorrectly.
> 
> I'm thinking a normal collar, in any capacity, when yanked, will have the same, if not more adverse affect on a dogs' throat area.


Exactly. So if ANY collar is not safe for a dog with a collapsed trachea, then it stands to reason that a slip lead is NOT the safest option for a dog with a collapsed trachea.

And let's not forget, the yanking doesn't have to be purposeful. I can use a slip lead as "correctly" as humanly possible and still have an accidental yanking. This morning in fact I managed to slip going downhill on some gravel and in falling yanked pretty hard on one of my dogs' lead.

But I'm a klutz. That's why my dog's leads are attached to body harnesses.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Exactly. So if ANY collar is not safe for a dog with a collapsed trachea, then it stands to reason that a slip lead is NOT the safest option for a dog with a collapsed trachea.
> 
> And let's not forget, the yanking doesn't have to be purposeful. I can use a slip lead as "correctly" as humanly possible and still have an accidental yanking. This morning in fact I managed to slip going downhill on some gravel and in falling yanked pretty hard on one of my dogs' lead.
> 
> But I'm a klutz. That's why my dog's leads are attached to body harnesses.


And I know a dog which, because it hadn't been well trained on a lead, always wore a harness. This dog went missing for quite some time and was found, with it's harness caught up in the undergrowth and unable to free itself. Lucky dog.

It's fun to throw in random instances. Don't you think?


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

samuelsmiles said:


> And I know a dog which, because it hadn't been well trained on a lead, always wore a harness. This dog went missing for quite some time and was found, with it's harness caught up in the undergrowth and unable to free itself. Lucky dog.
> 
> It's fun to throw in random instances. Don't you think?


But thats about training the dog in question and not accidental happenings which are out of our control.

That or removing the harness when the dog is off lead, but then it has no ID  but wait its wearing a collar for that  but then its collar gets caught on the undergrowth, is that why gundog owners use slip leads on their dogs  oh but do they wait until their dogs have a decent level of training


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

samuelsmiles said:


> And I know a dog which, because it hadn't been well trained on a lead, always wore a harness. This dog went missing for quite some time and was found, with it's harness caught up in the undergrowth and unable to free itself. Lucky dog.
> 
> It's fun to throw in random instances. Don't you think?


Not comprable examples. Law states my dogs have to be on a leash where we walk. There is no law that states your dog has to be off leash while wearing a body harness.
When we get to where the dogs can be off leash, I take off their harnessess (which I would think is common sense ).

You also may want to consider that just because a dog is wearing a harness, doesn't mean that dog is not well trained.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I would t use a slip lead on sophie, if she sees a squarril its warp speed an she has done it fast enough to snap a plastic buckle on her collar as a pup.

I use a harness for walks were she'll have open space for running around or trail walking, this in combination with the flexi. The only places here you are allowed to let dogs off is only dog parks but seeing as we don't go to them I do let her off in areas that are safe but I still wouldnt use a slip lead as I don't see them as being secure. I'd worry she back out of it and I also would not trust family members to use it properly.

Sophie has a normal buckle collar on and then for walks she has a martingale on so effectively she has to collars on. I love the martingale as its secure and stronger that she can't snap the buckle.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Not comprable examples. Law states my dogs have to be on a leash where we walk. There is no law that states your dog has to be off leash while wearing a body harness.
> When we get to where the dogs can be off leash, I take off their harnessess (which I would think is common sense ).
> 
> You also may want to consider that just because a dog is wearing a harness, doesn't mean that dog is not well trained.


...................and then I looked out of my window, saw the sun shining on the new growth of Spring in my garden; both Percy and Maggie snoozing contentedly on the grass, and realised it's time soon to take a ride to the woods for the evening walk. Off leash, of course. :cornut:


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