# advice needed regarding my pu who is 31 days gestation



## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

hi im just asking on some advice please,my pug bitch is 31 days gestation and she has started to loosed a brownish mucus,this has been intermittent all day,we have an appointment with our vtes today at 3.30 with her,has anyone else experienced this?? and could know the possible cause and also what treatment she would be given,we are also due to have he scanned on sunday to check the amount of puppies she is carrying,we are only allowing our pug one little then she is to be spayed as she is a family pet,thanks in advance Jacquie.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Perhaps someone else has experienced this but I never did, although I did breed a number of litters.

Your vet is definitely the best person to advise as to what the cause may be.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Let us know what the vet says.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

thanks guys will let you know what the vet says at half three xx


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

hi all now back from the vets!! our pug is fine we have been told this can sometimes happen without any explanation as it can in adults,our pug was checked all over she is top health apart from a little skin infection on her neck from an insect bite to which fuciderm cream has been given to use,cost us £52 but worth it,we have been told she is definitely in pup and are having a scan sunday verts was £90 lol so getting done else where for £25 xxx


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## Badwolfe (Jul 19, 2014)

You'll find that most private scanners (if correctly trained) will probably do a lot better job of the scan than your vet will anyway and for a much smaller cost :blush:


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2014)

hi ive found a lovely lady that is going to come and scan my bitch on sunday,she is trained too which is a bonus,i cant believe what vets charge for things lol:blush:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> ive found a lovely lady that is going to come and scan my bitch on sunday,*she is trained too which is a bonus*,


I would have thought that was essential not a bonus!

I use a sheep scanner because they have much more experience scanning. Although they are cheaper, cost doesn't really come into it. You seem a little concerned about costs so I hope you have a some put by. Pugs are not easy whelpers and often need C-sections which could cost you around £1500. They are also not particularly good mothers so will need a lot of help and support.

Is this your first litter? Do you have an experienced breeder of pugs helping you?


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2014)

rocco 33 money is no object when it comes to my pets!!! so please don't bring that into all of this when it isn't necessary!! we have experience breeding cocker spaniels previously,this is our pugs first littler of puppys and will be her last litter before she is spayed as she is a family pet not a breeding machine!!! and we have got lots of help at hand should it be needed,she is one of four pets and other black pug and two Pomeranians all of which are loved and very well cared for!!! so just an update lola is now 44 days in pup and is still bleeding on and off very frustrated with the vets as we have been advised to allow nature to take its course,lola is eating very well and her bump is growing there is no smell what so ever from the blood as we have been told to watch out for a change in smell as this could mean she has an infection,her infection on her head has now cleared not convinced this hasn't caused the bleeding in our pug as she was fine until this happened,we have been back and forwards to the vets with lola and each time just advised to monitor her but vets have said each time she is happy and well in herself,it could be that she has been carrying a large little and has aborted some of the pups,the discharge changed from brown to red again vets have been adised about this but with no treatment offered to her,ive read on many threds of pregnant dogs bleeding like lola has and gone on to have healthy puppys at full term,mum is our absoloute priority as she is our beloved pet,people come to ask for advice and get grief for no reason what so ever,but I have gone to the vets with my pug and got no treatment for her,i will keep people updated with lolas progress,she was scanned and we were told between 3&5 puppys but could be more as lola didn't like being scanned!!xx


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

With all due respect you were the one that brought money into it and balked at the cost of the vet and how much cheaper you had found it.

You may well have had a litter before (somehow I don't doubt it), but pugs are a different kettle of fish - they are not easy whelpers, often have difficulties and require c sections and don't make great mums. Of course, I'm sure you have done your research and already know this. Which, bets the question, why didn't you find a vet who has more specialist knowledge regarding whelping and pregnancy, particularly in a breed known to have difficulties, rather than rely on your regular vet!


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2014)

seriously what is your problem rocco???? we have bred dogs previously I have no reason to lie so don't call me a liar!! people ask for advice and your the exact reason why others don't bother because of your judgmental rudeness!!!! I was mearly saying the cost of the vets compared to someone experienced that came to the home is a massive difference!! I don't penny pinch when it comes to my pets never have and never will!! I don't know what planet your on suggesting finding a vet that deals with just pugs??? there is no such thing,a vet is trained in all animals not just one breed!! well that's the case in west Yorkshire!! please don't bother replying quite frankly you seve no purpose but be very carefull who your calling a liar mr know it all been there and got the tshirt of dogs and breeding!!!!


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> seriously what is your problem rocco???? we have bred dogs previously I have no reason to lie so don't call me a liar!!


Actually, rocco said "somehow, I *don't* doubt it". Have a re-read?


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2014)

yes he did which is saying he dobt I have bred a bitch previously which would mean ive lied about it!! which I have not!! you know what I wont ask for advice again on here cant do with key board warriors who wish to insult other members!! seen it many a time on here a poor woman who added a picture of her dogs was said some terrible things about her dog!! its so uncalled for,people ask for advice nothing more!!!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lizz1155 said:


> Actually, rocco said "somehow, I *don't* doubt it". Have a re-read?


Funny how one little word can totally change the meaning of what's being said. Although, judging from the forthrightness of their last post I suspect the subtle comment may have gone over the top of their head.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> yes he did which is saying he dobt I have bred a bitch previously which would mean ive lied about it!! which I have not!! you know what I wont ask for advice again on here cant do with key board warriors who wish to insult other members!! seen it many a time on here a poor woman who added a picture of her dogs was said some terrible things about her dog!! its so uncalled for,people ask for advice nothing more!!!!


Obviously I'm not speaking for rocco, however the conclusion you've drawn actually isn't what's being implied. So it's a tad melodramatic and unnecessary to be offended by it. Maybe have a look back at some old threads in Dog Breeding for, um... insight?


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## Badwolfe (Jul 19, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> (somehow I don't doubt it)


What Rocco has put there is known as a double negative which basically means she DOES believe what you are saying. Quite simple to read all the meanings of what is being said there if you read it carefully enough


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> seriously what is your problem rocco???? we have bred dogs previously I have no reason to lie so don't call me a liar!! people ask for advice and your the exact reason why others don't bother because of your judgmental rudeness!!!! I was mearly saying the cost of the vets compared to someone experienced that came to the home is a massive difference!! I don't penny pinch when it comes to my pets never have and never will!! I don't know what planet your on suggesting finding a vet that deals with just pugs??? there is no such thing,a vet is trained in all animals not just one breed!! well that's the case in west Yorkshire!! please don't bother replying quite frankly you seve no purpose but be very carefull who your calling a liar mr know it all been there and got the tshirt of dogs and breeding!!!!


Well, you're all upset because you think Rocco may have said something you don't like, but your posts aren't exactly polite.

People will offer you help on this forum, but not whilst you're being so rude I'm afraid.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

all rocco was trying to point out is that most vets do not understand the complexities of a natural whelp- they are trained for c-sections etc, not how to advise whether a dogs pelvic opening is wide enough for a litter- especially when it comes to pugs and bulldogs. (no offense to any vets of course- but not many will admit their lack of knowledge on breeding- even more so with the toy and bulldog breeds)

there really was no need for such an outburst.

so i will ask the very valid question... do you have an experienced PUG breeder on hand to help with the whelp and help you notice any danger signs which may be shown differently in your pug than other breeds?


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2014)

as ive previously stated in the threads yes we do have an experienced breeder of pugs at hand with any help and advice if in fact our pug gets into any difficulties during labour and after,i would not breed from her not knowing anything about the breed at all, any bitch can get into trouble during pregnancy and labour but I understand this is more so in pug breeds, the vet ive used was recommended to me threw a breeder im not convinced by them and is now trying to get a vet who can reassure us, this is our pugs first and last litter and im standing by that as I don't want to put her threw this ever again its not fare, we decided to let her have a littler because of her temperament and her stunning looks and colouring but never for a minute did I think I would experience the difficulties we have with lola.shifts have been changed at work in order for her to have someone with her at all times day and night incase she is needing to be rushed into a vets but yes I am not happy with the vets I have used,and the lady we used to scan is a breeder of French bull dogs for many years and has also given support and advice regarding our pug,but ultimately I would hope that a vet could do her job and advice better than she has done,we just get sent home each time with a huge bill and still a pug not have a good pregnancy, because she is eating and so well in herself the vet doesn't see that there is a problem, so from my point of view what am I suppose to do hence asking for advice on here from possible breeders of pugs with knowledge if they have ever experienced this,what I didn't expect is to be suggested that I have an issue with money regarding my pet when it couldn't be further from the truth,i have yet to find a vet that specialises in the pug breed!!!


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## wst (Sep 12, 2010)

you will be very hard pushed to find a vet with hands on experience of breeding dogs let alone a specific breed!
what you really need is a mentor with experience in the pug breed,although breeding pugs is no different than breeding any other dog.I have bred pugs and apart from the possibility of the bitch being a bad mother i had no problems!my own pug was very aloof with her litter ie she would feed and clean them but that was it,she did not "mother"them,and by 5 weeks old she showed no interest in them at all!
can i just ask have both parents at least been screened for h/v,pde and l/p,pll?
and have you check the coi of the mating of the litter these two dogs might produce,as the pug gene pool is limited to say the least.
as for roccos post as others have said i think you have mis-read it,and was in no way in my opinion were you being called a "lier"i think in this instance an appology is required.We are after all only here and advise and help where we can!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

wst said:


> you will be very hard pushed to find a vet with hands on experience of breeding dogs let alone a specific breed!
> what you really need is a mentor with experience in the pug breed,although breeding pugs is no different than breeding any other dog.I have bred pugs and apart from the possibility of the bitch being a bad mother i had no problems!my own pug was very aloof with her litter ie she would feed and clean them but that was it,she did not "mother"them,and by 5 weeks old she showed no interest in them at all!
> *can i just ask have both parents at least been screened for h/v,pde and l/p,pll?*
> and have you check the coi of the mating of the litter these two dogs might produce,as the pug gene pool is limited to say the least.
> as for roccos post as others have said i think you have mis-read it,and was in no way in my opinion were you being called a "lier"i think in this instance an appology is required.We are after all only here and advise and help where we can!


BIB I'll be very interested to hear the response from the OP. So many Pug litters I've come across have no health screening in place.


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## trudy (Oct 26, 2011)

what do you expect your vets to do actually as you have not even allowed them to perform a scan which would enable them to check the vitality of the pups but you prefered the cheeper option from some breeder.

if your bitch doesn't show any other signs of illness and you limit your vet there is little what they can do other then advice to wait for any changes or the birth itself.

I would also be interested to know if the cutness and lovely character of your pug are the only "health tests" which have been performed.

trudy


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

trudy said:


> what do you expect your vets to do actually as you have not even allowed them to perform a scan which would enable them to check the vitality of the pups but you prefered the cheeper option from some breeder.
> 
> if your bitch doesn't show any other signs of illness and you limit your vet there is little what they can do other then advice to wait for any changes or the birth itself.
> 
> ...


I'd support the OP in limiting input of the vet over that of an experienced scanner or mentor. Unfortunately few vets are experts in breeding.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

A couple of full stops wouldn't go amiss either.

My head hurts after reading that!


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2014)

both mum and dad have been screened,my bitches mother was also screened and paperwork shown before we bought her,our friends have all the other puppys from the litter of my bitches,apart from one having a minor skin condition when it was young that has now cleared up they have all grown into very healthy pugs,two of our friends whom own our pugs sisters had both of theirs spayed as didn't enjoy the times when the bitches came into heat,our bitch and the three other bitches are un spayed,lola will be spayed after this litter of puppys as previously stated several times she is a pet not an animal to throw litters out everytime she comes on heat,our Pomeranian dog and bitch are both neutered and spayed because the bitch is tiny and the dog standard,and the bitch is a therapy dog for children who are placed into our care threw fostering,our black pug bitch is getting spayed as she has a hernia and we don't know if this was down to mum or inherited from her parents and also the dangers of breeding from a bitch with a hernia again she is a pet along with the other dogs,i didn't get lola scaned at the vets as she wasn't 35 days at the time we visited the vets,lola was pretty fed up with the vet messing about with her,the vet checked her all over and said she was in brilliant health,gave us some antinbiotic cream for a small soar on her head and sent us away,lola was weighed at 9.7 kilos he ideal weight is 9kilos so the gain is down to her having puppys,we have been hand feeding lola for a month now so that we can get her to eat,given her other food choices to have in order for her and her babys to be healthy.i have rung around dozens of vets in west Yorkshire and not one specialises in pug breeds and said we would struggle to find one,so because we are having lots of advice from the stud dog owner and another breeder of pug we are more than happy to continue with this and oly take lola to the vets if its needed,this will prevent her picking anything nasty up from the vets and also stressing her when she doesn't need to be,an update on lolas bleeding for anyone who is interested!!!! her bleeding is very minimal now and is very faint in colour compared to the dark red/brown colour it has been for the last couple of weeks,she is continuing to gain weight,her appetite is greatly improved although she still needs some encouraging at first from our hand,lola is also now starting to produce milk her back four nipples more so than the rest of them!! if I have miss understood someones comment then I do apologise for this,but please don't make me feel like a backyard breeder who doesn't care for her animals,my animals are loved like my four children are and have been threw life,money is set aside if its needed for the birth and also vet checks,injections worming etc etc,these babys will not be going to anyone who isn't checked firstly and we are fully certain the new owners intentions with the puppy,nor will they be going to people who work fulltime and have no knowledge of the breed!! I have been into the loft and got back out my book of the bitch to refresh ourselves with whats to come in the next two weeks,this book was a god send with us breeding our cocker spaniel and her litter of puppys,we also have everything ready for when the puppys make their appearance,mum is also still sleeping in her welping box in our room and will continue to until we are confident her and babys are safe to stay in the main house again!! I really don't think there is any more I can say to be honest,ohhhh I have used comers rather than full stops if that's ok with peoples reading!! I will update further when lola has her babys for those who are interested!! there are also pictures on my profile of lola I don't know how to put them on this thred!!!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

iamafostermummy said:


> both mum and dad have been screened,my bitches mother was also screened and paperwork shown before we bought her,our friends have all the other puppys from the litter of my bitches,apart from one having a minor skin condition when it was young that has now cleared up they have all grown into very healthy pugs,
> 
> two of our friends whom own our pugs sisters had both of theirs spayed as didn't enjoy the times when the bitches came into heat,our bitch and the three other bitches are un spayed,lola will be spayed after this litter of puppys as previously stated several times she is a pet not an animal to throw litters out everytime she comes on heat,our Pomeranian dog and bitch are both neutered and spayed because the bitch is tiny and the dog standard,and the bitch is a therapy dog for children who are placed into our care threw fostering,our black pug bitch is getting spayed as she has a hernia and we don't know if this was down to mum or inherited from her parents and also the dangers of breeding from a bitch with a hernia again she is a pet along with the other dogs,
> 
> ...


Sorry, just split it up a bit so it's easier to read, rather than one big block of text.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2014)

thanks for doing that for me,was busy typing away before I went to work lol thanks again xx


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

What's wrong with people working full time and owning dogs? If I didn't work full time (and my partner) I wouldn't be able to afford to care for my dog!


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2014)

hi I don't know who the post was for regarding working fulltime and having pets,can I just say my husband and I foster children,i am at home all day every day with the pets and children,my husband works fulltime in car hire along with fostering,i also work 5-9 on an evening working with a Chinese family just up the road from my house so can be home in minutes,my older daughters are 22,19 and 18 and live at home apart from the 22 year old,their college and work fits around us all in the home,bet when I do go to work my husband is always at home as is the older children,i don't have to work on an evening but chose to do so for many reasons including my sanity and me time,we don't party or have people in and out of the home,a very private family that's more than content to spend our time with children and our animals!!xx


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

I was referring to your vetting of the new owners of the pups



iamafostermummy said:


> these babys will not be going to anyone who isn't checked firstly and we are fully certain the new owners intentions with the puppy,nor will they be going to people who work fulltime and have no knowledge of the breed!!


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2014)

well im very sorry but I dont want any pup of mine being left all day alone in a house!! pugs love company,how is a pup supposed to be fed and walked if both work full time?? my pugs will be going to family homes where there will be someone around to care for them!! sorry if you don't agree but I know many breeders who do just the same!! nor will be allowing anyone to take a pup that will have it outside all day stuck in a kenel!! but thanks for your imput!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> well im very sorry but I dont want any pup of mine being left all day alone in a house!! pugs love company,how is a pup supposed to be fed and walked if both work full time?? my pugs will be going to family homes where there will be someone around to care for them!! sorry if you don't agree but I know many breeders who do just the same!! nor will be allowing anyone to take a pup that will have it outside all day stuck in a kenel!! but thanks for your imput!!


So why breed in the first place? If you're worried about where pups might end up, what is your point in producing pups that *could* end up being left alone? Not a dig, but your posts have confused me, including the one about prices of pups, not sure why you would charge more for bitch pups over dogs, and I've never heard of some of the colours in your post, but being involved with Labs am highly aware of some of the shades of registerable colours that are being bandied about as being rare, and therefore more desirable.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> well im very sorry but I dont want any pup of mine being left all day alone in a house!! pugs love company,how is a pup supposed to be fed and walked if both work full time?? my pugs will be going to family homes where there will be someone around to care for them!! sorry if you don't agree but I know many breeders who do just the same!! nor will be allowing anyone to take a pup that will have it outside all day stuck in a kenel!! but thanks for your imput!!


I don't really think you can generalise that way and say only 'stay at home' people are fit to care for a puppy.

I would always judge each case on it's merits. How many hours a day are the people at work, what arrangements there were for someone to come in at midday and would the time spent with the pup be quality time?

I sold a puppy to a family with three teenage Sons. The Parents were Teachers, so were out of the house from 8.30 until 4.00. p.m. through the week. They used to walk the dog for an hour first thing in a morning and paid someone to come in at lunchtime and walk her again for thirty minutes. The whole Family used to come home around 4 0' Clock and, after tea, they took her out again for another hour.

During the day, she had the freedom of the house. All three Sons played football, so weekends were spent around and about at football matches and the dog used to love it all.

They adored her and gave her the best of everything. She lived to seventeen and never ailed a day.

I think it was a wonderful home for any dog. Not everyone has the luxury of not having to work and I don't believe that should mean they can never own a dog.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2014)

I work full time and use punctuation. 

*tiptoes quietly away from thread*


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> well im very sorry but I dont want any pup of mine being left all day alone in a house!! pugs love company,how is a pup supposed to be fed and walked if both work full time?? my pugs will be going to family homes where there will be someone around to care for them!! sorry if you don't agree but I know many breeders who do just the same!! nor will be allowing anyone to take a pup that will have it outside all day stuck in a kenel!! but thanks for your imput!!


My dogs have always been fine? My current dog is left alone for varying lengths of time, as while I work set hours, my partner works shifts. The most my dog is left is 5 hours one week, 3 hours the next week, then not at all the following week when my partner is on nights.

What does my dog do wpthe whole time we're out? Enjoy the peace and quiet and sleep! (Or steal food like he did yesterday )


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2014)

yes and I responded with if both owners will be working full time then they wont be buying one of my puppys!! I feel very strongly about this and sticking to my guns!! we wouldn't own our four dogs had we both worked full time!! the breeders made certain of this!! im not going to get into anything else regarding this litter as I cant say rite for wrong!! and im put out with some comments by way of nit picking at every thing,im going do do whats the best for my animals and puppys!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> yes and I responded with if both owners will be working full time then they wont be buying one of my puppys!! I feel very strongly about this and sticking to my guns!! we wouldn't own our four dogs had we both worked full time!! the breeders made certain of this!! im not going to get into anything else regarding this litter as I cant say rite for wrong!! and im put out with some comments by way of nit picking at every thing,im going do do whats the best for my animals and puppys!!


I'm sure you think you are, but why do you charge more for bitches? Why would that be the best thing for the puppies?


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I work full time and have dogs and a horse... I must be the most awful person ever!!! What kind of breeder and rescue entrusted me with their dogs?!! :yikes:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> yes and I responded with if both owners will be working full time then they wont be buying one of my puppys!! I feel very strongly about this and sticking to my guns!! we wouldn't own our four dogs had we both worked full time!! the breeders made certain of this!! im not going to get into anything else regarding this litter as I cant say rite for wrong!! and im put out with some comments by way of nit picking at every thing,im going do do whats the best for my animals and puppys!!


I just wonder though, is it best for your pug bitch to have a litter of pups? Why would that be "best" for her?

I'm a little baffled by why you're actually breeding from her and why you've bred Cockers? If your bitch is an excellent specimen of the breed and you've used a carefully chosen stud, in order to try and breed pups that are better examples of the Breed than their Parents, then that is a reason to breed, in my opinion.

I don't understand either why you're charging £100 more for a bitch pup than for a dog pup.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> well im very sorry but I dont want any pup of mine being left all day alone in a house!! pugs love company,*how is a pup supposed to be fed and walked if both work full time??* my pugs will be going to family homes where there will be someone around to care for them!! sorry if you don't agree but I know many breeders who do just the same!! nor will be allowing anyone to take a pup that will have it outside all day stuck in a kenel!! but thanks for your imput!!


I can understand the concerns of a potential owner not having time to walk the dog or interact with him/her, but feeding? How hard is it to feed a dog that someone who works full time would struggle with that?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

my beloved cocker spaniel had one litter 11 years ago, sadly she was stolen from us, she had puppys as she was from working stock and her pedigree was full of championships, as for the colouring I was referring to how the prices vary in pugs and the ridiculous prices people charge for the colours, my cockers bitches were priced higher than the dogs and also because of the colours she had, ranging from chocolate, blue roan and black, but also because some pups showed more potential than others regarding making good working dogs, she would of only ever had one litter had she not been stolen as one of the pups had a slight over shot jaw so wouldn't want to be producing litters of pups with this defect.

as for lola our pug we are referring to keeping one of her bitches back is purely because I prefer bitches around the children to dogs our personal preference, and if she is anything like her mum she will make an excellent companion for the many children whom come to live with us, as I have said previously we wont be breeding from any of our pugs in the future due to the stress our pug has gone threw with this her first and last litter.

regarding working I want any of our pugs to go to a home where they are going to have people around them, to train them play with them walk them and feed them, if we worked away from the home fulltime we wouldn't own a dog again my personal choice if people agree or not with this.

my farther has bred britany spaniels for over 15 years, my brother in law breeds cocker spaniels, labradores and golden retrievers oh also springer spaniels, there dogs are all working dogs.they are both fortunate to work from home and able to give the dogs everything they need.my cocker spaniel was from working stock but she made a fantastic pet,her puppys went to pet homes and working homes.

again post comments have got personal and not picking once again,but hey I suppose that's the nature of forums!!!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Genuinely wanting to know:
Why would different colours command different prices? I can somewhat understand in show stock dogs with marking/colour faults etc being cheaper, but why different prices for 'acceptable' colours and/or colours in pet/working bred dogs? It's still the same dog underneath...

Neither of my breeds are particularly common, but do come in different colours.
Rory's and Sam's breeders asked the same price for each of their pups, regardless of colour and markings
I doesn't make sense to me and had they been different prices, I probably would have looked elsewhere - not directed at you, but it just screams 'greed' to me


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

iamafostermummy said:


> my beloved cocker spaniel had one litter 11 years ago, sadly she was stolen from us, she had puppys as she was from working stock and her pedigree was full of championships, as for the colouring I was referring to how the prices vary in pugs and the ridiculous prices people charge for the colours, my cockers bitches were priced higher than the dogs and also because of the colours she had, ranging from chocolate, blue roan and black, but also because some pups showed more potential than others regarding making good working dogs, she would of only ever had one litter had she not been stolen as one of the pups had a slight over shot jaw so wouldn't want to be producing litters of pups with this defect.
> 
> *as for lola our pug we are referring to keeping one of her bitches back is purely because I prefer bitches around the children to dogs our personal preference, and if she is anything like her mum she will make an excellent companion for the many children whom come to live with us, as I have said previously we wont be breeding from any of our pugs in the future due to the stress our pug has gone threw with this her first and last litter.*
> 
> ...


So why does the cynic in me scream that you're keeping a bitch back to breed on from her, too and that it has nothing to do with preferring bitches around children? :sosp:

What if your litter is all male?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sorry but there's absolutely no reason why someone who works full time can't arrange to home a puppy, to handle those first few weeks where you need to be around pretty much all the time, down to arranging a dog walker/sitter to pop in once they are back to work full time. In fact in my experience, having a set routine helps with the dogs, they know when my work clothes go on, they are off to bed for a sleep. I would rather have an owner with a good means of income take a pup, than one who relies on *sidelines* when it comes to making a living. 

Do you show your pug? When you say health checks I'm hoping you've had her screened, and that the stud dog is also screened using health tests to ensure the pups will not have the propensity to develop any problems. 

Just because a cocker is from working strains, doesn't mean they need to have a litter, so I'm still just as confused as ever for your reasons for breeding. And I'm also alarmed to see different prices mentioned for different colours, not sure if you're saying this is something that's done, or that you've done, but simply put, whether a dog or bitch, or whether they are an *unusual* colour, the price for a pup in my books is the same across the board. Once you start developing fashions for unusual colours and markings, and they become fashionable, or you big them up as being rare, the dogs are always exploited to death, literally.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Perhaps by working full time the op means something like our the policy we have at the rescue for rehoming pups ... Which in reality means we would not rehome a pup where it will be left for long periods home alone from day 1 as can be the case with often people who are out for much of the day working full time enquire for the pups. 

However it's a different story if people work full time but say do split shifts or different days days or have children at home or can take some time off or have someone around for them to pop in a couple of times a day etc etc. 

It's no slight in those who have a dog and work full time the people on this forum are dedicated dog owners and there are those out there but there are a lot if families who enquire who think it is ok to leave a young pup home alone and work full time and who are not as dedicated to spending time outside of work on their dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

EmCHammer said:


> Perhaps by working full time the op means something like our the policy we have at the rescue for rehoming pups ... Which in reality means we would not rehome a pup where it will be left for long periods home alone from day 1 as can be the case with often people who are out for much of the day working full time enquire for the pups.
> 
> However it's a different story if people work full time but say do split shifts or different days days or have children at home or can take some time off or have someone around for them to pop in a couple of times a day etc etc.
> 
> It's no slight in those who have a dog and work full time the people on this forum are dedicated dog owners and there are those out there but there are a lot if families who enquire who think it is ok to leave a young pup home alone and work full time and who are not as dedicated to spending time outside of work on their dogs.


I completely agree with ensuring you have enough time set aside to allow a new pup/dog to settle in. But there's plenty of ways of letting a new pup/dog settle in, whether or not you work full time or part time. It's a generalisation that I find really frustrating, and I know a few breeders who simply rule out any enquiries from people who work full time. I would never have had Indie if the breeder had that criteria, and as I work full time myself it's something that just annoys the heck out of me. Apols to the op for going a bit off topic but worth pointing out that generalisations like this can exclude a whole set of actually very good homes for pups/dogs.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

when I posted on the forum regarding pricing on certain breeds I was stating the price I see advertised and the different colours regarding the princes not my prices of £3000 I couldn't justify this nor a liking to the pure white pugs my preference!!!

regarding keeping a bitch back from this litter personal choice!! nothing to do with breeding what so ever!! I prefer bitches around my children and the foster children I care for!! ive had my other bitch and dog neutered and spayed could of bred from them chose not to do so!!

my black bitch pup is due to be spayed in two months time due to a hernia but she is also my 20 year olds dog not mine but she is living at home still!! so still a family pet!! she will go with my daughters once she has her home sorted out but will spend the day time with us when she is at university and working!!

if someone comes to our home regarding one of lolas puppys and shift patterns work out to where a dog isn't left 6-12 hours a day all alone and that they are buying a pup for genuine reasons and we visit their home and feel completely happy that a pup is going to a good loving forever home then I will sell to that person only if we are happy with the vetting!!

I don't want a puppy left hours at a time to avoid not being fully socialised, puppys left alone get into trouble chewing soiling nipping hence then for sale a few months down the line, i want to avoid this as much as possible I want the same home provided as the home they start their life off with us, if I could I would keep every single one of the puppys, sadly I don't have the space nor does fostering allow you to have many dogs in the home, that way would guarantee the puppys will get everything they need.

I see many breeders charging different prices for breeds of dogs with certain colouring and markings and also the different in the sexes of their puppys, we paid more for our bitch than what the males were priced for but never questioned it all as seen and known this to happen, but we didn't buy a uk breed pug she is from polish stock and I don't regret making this decision, same with our Pomeranian from Ireland.

we have seen over the years some terrible litters thrown from pugs and other breeds to get that designer dog and its purely shocking, i hope the pups my bitch has are all healthy and a true reflection of the breed. we never know as dog owners if our bitch we allow to have a litter from is going to get into difficulty. I know of people continuing to breed from a bitch that doesn't whelp very well and throws puppys with serious health conditions!! I am not one of those people!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> my beloved cocker spaniel had one litter 11 years ago, sadly she was stolen from us, she had puppys as she was from working stock and her pedigree was full of championships, as for the colouring I was referring to how the prices vary in pugs and the ridiculous prices people charge for the colours, my cockers bitches were priced higher than the dogs and also because of the colours she had, ranging from chocolate, blue roan and black, *but also because some pups showed more potential than others regarding making good working dogs*, she would of only ever had one litter had she not been stolen as one of the pups had a slight over shot jaw so wouldn't want to be producing litters of pups with this defect.
> 
> as for lola our pug we are referring to keeping one of her bitches back is purely because I prefer bitches around the children to dogs our personal preference, and if she is anything like her mum she will make an excellent companion for the many children whom come to live with us, as I have said previously we wont be breeding from any of our pugs in the future due to the stress our pug has gone threw with this her first and last litter.
> 
> ...


Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. As someone who both works and competes with my working gundogs you would be laughed at by anyone who knows anything about gundogs for charging more for 8 week old pups showing more potential -  :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. As someone who both works and competes with my working gundogs you would be laughed at by anyone who knows anything about gundogs for charging more for 8 week old pups showing more potential -  :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes, Id LOVE to hear how you assess an 8 week old gundog for working potential


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

that field is down to my brother in law and father considering my pups didn't leave my home until they were 16 weeks old!! it was blatantly obvious which would do well as working dogs and which didn't cut it!!

I would say after 15 years in breeding and then training gun dogs/working dogs I could trust my fathers input into which were the ones with the most potential!! 

I know other breeds that are trained in various things from working to blind dogs or dogs for people with disabilities are seen at a young age and chosen from a young age!!

to be honest too the ones that went to working homes were firstly chosen because of the pedigree they held with over 52 field trial champions in, none of the pups that went to working homes have not been very successful as have their litters from them. i don't work any of my dogs they are pets only, apart from my bitch Pomeranian she is a therapy dog for certain children with challenging complex needs, she has changed outcomes of many a child with the work she has done with them.

she wont be doing this for much longer as she is getting old now and just wants to sit in the lap and be petted by everyone. she is moving to brighton with our other Pomeranian to live with my daughter and enjoy lovely walks on the beach for the rest of her days, we are hoping the pup we keep back will be able to become a therapy dog for future children placed with us but not sure yet.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. As someone who both works and competes with my working gundogs you would be laughed at by anyone who knows anything about gundogs for charging more for 8 week old pups showing more potential -  :lol: :lol: :lol:


 clearly you have jumped to the conclusion that my pups are sold on at eight weeks!! my father and brother in law are very successful in breeding working and gun dogs and pull thousands of punds for their litters of pups!!!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> clearly you have jumped to the conclusion that my pups are sold on at eight weeks!! my father and brother in law are very successful in breeding working and gun dogs *and pull thousands of punds for their litters of pups*!!!


And there it is


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> I'm sure you think you are, but why do you charge more for bitches? Why would that be the best thing for the puppies?


ive not said it would be in the best interest of the pups charging more for a bitch than a dog, if you read my response ive said ive always paid more for a bitch than I have for a dog, in all breeds we have owned!! colouring in certain breeds can demand a much higher price!! I paid more for my bitch in pup than I did for our black pug!!

I see many adverts for litter of pups where bitches can be upto double the price of a dog from the same litter as I also see with colouring!!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> clearly you have jumped to the conclusion that my pups are sold on at eight weeks!! my father and brother in law are very successful in breeding working and gun dogs and pull thousands of punds for their litters of pups!!!


Well, that's about the only believable explanation you've come up with so far as to why you and your Family are breeding so many pups.

Money. We've never heard that one before. 

After all, your excuse that you produce superior working dogs can't really apply to a litter of Pugs, now can it?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> ive not said it would be in the best interest of the pups charging more for a bitch than a dog, if you read my response ive said ive always paid more for a bitch than I have for a dog, in all breeds we have owned!! colouring in certain breeds can demand a much higher price!! I paid more for my bitch in pup than I did for our black pug!!
> 
> I see many adverts for litter of pups where bitches can be upto double the price of a dog from the same litter as I also see with colouring!!


And, by the way. The reason some breeders charge more for bitch pups is quite simple.

It's nothing to do with colouring. It's because bitch pups can be bred from. Simple as that.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> clearly you have jumped to the conclusion that my pups are sold on at eight weeks!! my father and brother in law are very successful in breeding working and gun dogs and pull thousands of punds for their litters of pups!!!


From working gundogs in the north? They must be doing a lot of breeding to make thousands of punds (I assume you mean pounds), but then that doesn't surprise me either. Being involved with the gundog world I know exactly the sort of breeder they are 

And 16 weeks makes no difference. If they have a working pedigree with plenty of champions (as most good working dogs do so nothing special about having a pedigree full of red) then unless the breeding is poorly thought out they should be a pretty even litter.

But, you do surprise me about one thing - I've yet to come across a northerner who will pay over the odds for a working cocker LOL - they can't be northerners :laugh:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> ive not said it would be in the best interest of the pups charging more for a bitch than a dog, if you read my response ive said ive always paid more for a bitch than I have for a dog, in all breeds we have owned!! colouring in certain breeds can demand a much higher price!! I paid more for my bitch in pup than I did for our black pug!!
> 
> I* see many adverts for litter of pups where bitches can be upto double the price of a dog from the same litter as I also see with colouring*!!


Which, as I suspected, your 'research' consists of going through the freeads online 

I don't even know why you are bothering - you are simply digging the hole even deeper. My initial impression of your back yard breeding has only been confirmed by comments.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> but we didn't buy a uk breed pug she is from polish stock and I don't regret making this decision, same with our Pomeranian from Ireland.


:yikes:

(and typing to adhere to minimum word limit...)

Actually - I'm sorry if I'm wrong, I know nothing about pedigrees and Kennel Club etc. as all my animals are rescues - if mummy pug is polish, does that mean you're hoping to fetch £750/£850 for non KC-registered pups? Just out of interest, as I have no idea how these things work. Never owned a pedigree in my life! Do non-registered pups sell for that much? Never paid for a dog in my life either, so literally have no idea.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

omg who is getting personal now regarding people being northerners and paying prices for a pup????
seriously how helpful do you think you are being,my brothers in law is called alan Jarvis he lives in Doncaster he has sold his working pups all over the country,some he sells as pups some he trains up himself where you live has nothing to do with the price people pay for the specific dog,my dad also makes gun stocks for hunters he sells them world wide!! I suppose this is wrong too!!

I don't get involved in the prices my brother in law and father sell their working pups/dogs for its none of my business what so ever!! but my brother in law breeds and trains working dogs only no other work does he do that I know of!! but my brother in law it is his job and main source of income!! not for me to question nor you or anyone else

my cockers when they were sold at 16 weeks they sold for £575 which wasn't over priced considering their pedigree that came with them. pugs are very different to working breed dogs for the obvious reason,i am very proud of my roots this has nothing to do with my pets or their litter of pups!!

I would think enough has been said but more than likely more insults will be sent my way because of a difference of opinion, keep throwing them it doesn't affect me or my pets its just showing what shallow minded individuals you really are!!!!!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> Which, as I suspected, your 'research' consists of going through the freeads online
> 
> I don't even know why you are bothering - you are simply digging the hole even deeper. My initial impression of your back yard breeding has only been confirmed by comments.


then you are a fool,i don't sit going threw adds on here what so ever didn't know there were adds on here!!

most of my enquiry's have been threw other owners/breeders and friends.

just so you do know the gun dogs were advertised in the gun dog magazines and not on your local free adds!!! back yard breeder please, ive owned a cocker she had one litter of pups, i own a pug who is on her first litter of pups, hardly a back yard breeder considering ive had dogs 23 years ive been married!!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> omg who is getting personal now regarding people being northerners and paying prices for a pup????
> seriously how helpful do you think you are being,my brothers in law is called alan Jarvis he lives in Doncaster he has sold his working pups all over the country,some he sells as pups some he trains up himself where you live has nothing to do with the price people pay for the specific dog,my dad also makes gun stocks for hunters he sells them world wide!! I suppose this is wrong too!!
> 
> I don't get involved in the prices my brother in law and father sell their working pups/dogs for its none of my business what so ever!! but my brother in law breeds and trains working dogs only no other work does he do that I know of!! but my brother in law it is his job and main source of income!! not for me to question nor you or anyone else
> ...


I'm from the North too, but that doesn't really serve as a reason to keep breeding pups.

I know you've been asked whether your bitch has had all the appropriate tests/screening for her breed and whether your chosen stud dog has been similarly tested, but you don't appear to have answered.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

Sweety said:


> I'm from the North too, but that doesn't really serve as a reason to keep breeding pups.
> 
> I know you've been asked whether your bitch has had all the appropriate tests/screening for her breed and whether your chosen stud dog has been similarly tested, but you don't appear to have answered.


I replied on the first page regarding tested bitch and stud dog!!

then with regards to being from here and breeding?? I suppose this goes for other breeders then not just me??? I have allowed my bitch pug one litter of pups not several!! ive neutered my other dogs so as for them not to be breeding!!!!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

Are there sites in the UK that publish health testing results like we do here? For example, a breeder can publish health testing results either on PennHip, OFfA, or CHIC where anyone doing pedigree research can see? Its also a way of seeing if those claiming to have health tested stock really do


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Are there sites in the UK that publish health testing results like we do here? For example, a breeder can publish health testing results either on PennHip, OFfA, or CHIC where anyone doing pedigree research can see? Its also a way of seeing if those claiming to have health tested stock really do


Yes, the kennel club, although they don't publish results for all laboratories. So for example, if you use ECVO instead of the BVA for an annual eye test, it won't show up. Also, they only record certain health tests for different breeds, so Rhuna's elbow grade may not show up on there, but her hip scores will.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just for info, the KC recommends pugs be hemivertibrae tested before breeding, there's also more info about the health tests available on the link, quite a few!!

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/14688/dnatestsworldwide.pdf


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Are there sites in the UK that publish health testing results like we do here? For example, a breeder can publish health testing results either on PennHip, OFfA, or CHIC where anyone doing pedigree research can see? It's also a way of seeing if those claiming to have health tested stock really do


Yes, but it only publishes individual results for UK KC registered dogs - the OP has said that her pug is not from the UK but from Poland! so there won't be any publicly held records - how convenient


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Yes, but it only publishes individual results for UK KC registered dogs - the OP has said that her pug is not from the UK but from Poland! so there won't be any publicly held records - how convenient


But you can register imported dogs with the UK KC, I've never done it but Rhuna's dam came from abroad. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But you can register imported dogs with the UK KC, I've never done it but Rhuna's dam came from abroad. Or maybe I'm just an eternal optimist.


You can if the dog is a member of the originating countries KC. Are you saying that you think the OP would have registered them with the UK KC?!?! Someone who buys from Poland and Ireland?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

iamafostermummy said:


> then you are a fool,i don't sit going threw adds on here what so ever didn't know there were adds on here!!
> 
> most of my enquiry's have been threw other owners/breeders and friends.
> 
> just so you do know the gun dogs were advertised in the gun dog magazines and not on your local free adds!!! back yard breeder please, ive owned a cocker she had one litter of pups, i own a pug who is on her first litter of pups, hardly a back yard breeder considering ive had dogs 23 years ive been married!!


Ads online - not on this site. You know - Gumtree, Preloved, etc?

And a BYB is someone who breeds one or more litter of pups for no other reason than money. They may love their dogs, they may rear the pups in their homes with them, but they breed - or let "nature take its cause" because "it's every bitches/stud's right to have a litter", "because we wanted him/her to experience the miracle of having babies". And yes, frankly, "We'll do what's best for the bitch/puppies" is often heard in these threads, mainly by BYB. Probably because reputable breeders accept that it's not in the bitch's best interests to have puppies, nor does the bitch care if she has puppies or not.

If your brother in law breeds dogs as a main source of income, it suggests he's a puppy farmer and not a reputable breeder. Googling his name doesn't show anything up regarding breeding dogs, but plenty of racing links - and even then it seems his career is down the pan.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> You can if the dog is a member of the originating countries KC. Are you saying that you think the OP would have registered them with the UK KC?!?! Someone who buys from Poland and Ireland?


I like to look on the brighter side of things, despite continually being proven wrong.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Not sure why not leaving the house before 16 weeks is a bragging point 
I'm also still really confused on the colour/price point. 'Other people do it' isn't a great reason...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

BlueJay said:


> Not sure why not leaving the house before 16 weeks is a bragging point
> I'm also still really confused on the colour/price point. 'Other people do it' isn't a great reason...


TBH, I would be very worried if a litter was still with the breeder at 16 weeks for a number of reasons.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> TBH, I would be very worried if a litter was still with the breeder at 16 weeks for a number of reasons.


It's far too long, in my opinion.

By sixteen weeks they should be in their new homes, fully inoculated and being socialised, getting one to one attention from their new owners, I think.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2014)

Who's bragging about them leaving at16 weeks??' it was a response to a question being asked!!!
And as for colour and prices I was saying many breeders charge different prices for colours!!!
But obviously that's my fault speaking about it!!!
No matter what I say everything is turned into something negative and twisted!!
Im a good person that loves my pets and thought I was doing the rite thing asking a simple question being worried about my pet!! Big mistake it's enabled people to be cruel about me where I live and my pets not to mention my family!! I hope no one asks anything to certain members to avoided a witch hunt!! I'm tough I have be because Lethem nature of my employment but never have I cone across such nastiness!! Hope your pleased with yourselves!! I hope the mod removes this whole thread then I don't have to see such horrible comments again!!!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> Who's bragging about them leaving at16 weeks??' it was a response to a question being asked!!!
> And as for colour and prices I was saying many breeders charge different prices for colours!!!
> But obviously that's my fault speaking about it!!!
> No matter what I say everything is turned into something negative and twisted!!


Twisting what now? 



iamafostermummy said:


> my beloved cocker spaniel had one litter 11 years ago, sadly she was stolen from us, she had puppys as she was from working stock and her pedigree was full of championships, as for the colouring I was referring to how the prices vary in pugs and the ridiculous prices people charge for the colours, *my cockers bitches were priced higher than the dogs and also because of the colours she had, ranging from chocolate, blue roan and black*, but also because some pups showed more potential than others regarding making good working dogs, she would of only ever had one litter had she not been stolen as one of the pups had a slight over shot jaw so wouldn't want to be producing litters of pups with this defect.





iamafostermummy said:


> that field is down to my brother in law and father considering *my pups didn't leave my home until they were 16 weeks old!!* it was blatantly obvious which would do well as working dogs and which didn't cut it!!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> Who's bragging about them leaving at16 weeks??' it was a response to a question being asked!!!
> And as for colour and prices I was saying many breeders charge different prices for colours!!!
> But obviously that's my fault speaking about it!!!
> No matter what I say everything is turned into something negative and twisted!!
> Im a good person that loves my pets and thought I was doing the rite thing asking a simple question being worried about my pet!! Big mistake it's enabled people to be cruel about me where I live and my pets not to mention my family!! I hope no one asks anything to certain members to avoided a witch hunt!! I'm tough I have be because Lethem nature of my employment but never have I cone across such nastiness!! Hope your pleased with yourselves!! I hope the mod removes this whole thread then I don't have to see such horrible comments again!!!


Yes, we know that many breeders charge higher prices for bitch pups or 'rare' colours, but that isn't right and it isn't a reason for you to do it.

To be fair, several of us have asked you why you're charging more for bitch pups and all you seem to say is that other Breeders do it. That isn't really a good reason or an explanation as to why you're doing it.

That can appear to some that you don't really know what you're doing and I still don't understand why you've bred this litter of Pugs.


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

I have been lurking on this thread but not posting, yet to get my own pup let alone be able to comment on breeding

_However_ I think I can comment on what we looked for in a breeder. someone who hasn't done all the health tests they should be doing to ensure the health of the puppies, as well as the well being of the bitch and her capacity to cope with pregnancy would make me walk away.

Add to that the breeder charging more for a certain sex/'rare colour' and my opinion would change from 'not the sort of breeder I would want a get puppy from' to unscrupulous, money making BYB 

I am sorry if that offends you, but I am just being honest. As for the comments on here, they are born out of frustration and sadness after seeing situations like yours over and over.

I am sure in other areas in your life you are wonderful, kind and much loved by many. If the comments are upsetting you so much, stop reading, make a cup of tea and accept that your views and the views of most on here will differ greatly. It's a forum and people are going to question questionable breeding.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> Who's bragging about them leaving at16 weeks??' it was a response to a question being asked!!!
> And as for colour and prices I was saying many breeders charge different prices for colours!!!
> But obviously that's my fault speaking about it!!!
> No matter what I say everything is turned into something negative and twisted!!
> Im a good person that loves my pets and thought I was doing the rite thing asking a simple question being worried about my pet!! Big mistake it's enabled people to be cruel about me where I live and my pets not to mention my family!! I hope no one asks anything to certain members to avoided a witch hunt!! I'm tough I have be because Lethem nature of my employment but never have I cone across such nastiness!! Hope your pleased with yourselves!! I hope the mod removes this whole thread then I don't have to see such horrible comments again!!!


Nobody has denied that you love your pets, I'm sure you do, however, your breeding practices leave a lot to be desired. It is not done to be nasty but irresponsible breeding practices are not likely to be welcomed on a dog loving forum and from what you have written your breeding practices fall very short of being an adequate breeder, much less a good breeder. Loving your dog has nothing to do with good breeding practices.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> If your brother in law breeds dogs as a main source of income, it suggests he's a puppy farmer and not a reputable breeder. Googling his name doesn't show anything up regarding breeding dogs, but plenty of racing links - and even then it seems his career is down the pan.


I actually know someone who bought a dog from him....:thumbdown:


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> If your brother in law breeds dogs as a main source of income, it suggests he's a puppy farmer and not a reputable breeder. Googling his name doesn't show anything up regarding breeding dogs, but plenty of racing links - and even then it seems his career is down the pan.


If you're talking about Alan Jarvis the racehorse trainer, I believe he is based down south and not in Doncaster. Unlikely to be the same person.

I would imagine 'Alan Jarvis' is a reasonably common name.

ETA: I put 'Alan Jarvis dog breeder' into Google and the first thing that came up was this gundog breeder, so actually quite easy to find.

Home - A WebsiteBuilder Website


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## trudy (Oct 26, 2011)

Found a gun dog homepage for Alan Jarvis and was shocked to see pet rabbits pictured on the "rabbit pen training" add,is this actually legal?
think it's cruel and horrible for the poor rabbits.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I think that's pretty standard for training gundogs.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

trudy said:


> Found a gun dog homepage for Alan Jarvis and was shocked to see pet rabbits pictured on the "rabbit pen training" add,is this actually legal?
> think it's cruel and horrible for the poor rabbits.


Yes it is - what is cruel and horrible about it?


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## trudy (Oct 26, 2011)

I find it horrible for the rabbits to be used as training objects for dogs it might be standard for the dogs,not sure how the rabbits feel about this,well actually I can imagine it!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> If you're talking about Alan Jarvis the racehorse trainer, I believe he is based down south and not in Doncaster. Unlikely to be the same person.
> 
> I would imagine 'Alan Jarvis' is a reasonably common name.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Sorry, not with it today.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> Thanks for that. Sorry, not with it today.


I used to be with it. Then they changed what 'it' was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

trudy said:


> I find it horrible for the rabbits to be used as training objects for dogs it might be standard for the dogs,not sure how the rabbits feel about this,well actually I can imagine it!


I can't imagine they feel great about it.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

trudy said:


> I find it horrible for the rabbits to be used as training objects for dogs it might be standard for the dogs,not sure how the rabbits feel about this,well actually I can imagine it!


Like most animals, the rabbits get used to canine presence. I know a number of dogs that live happily with rabbits.
The rabbit pens are used for steadiness training. The rabbits just go about their business as they would if they were in someone's garden.

While I can appreciate living in a family home may be preferable, I'm not sure why it is considered cruel. Many pet rabbits are put in hutches in the garden - at least these have large pens to run around in.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

It doesn't take long to find freeads with said breeder on. However yes seem to be on gundog sites too. So the OP was not totally wrong.


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## foxy81 (Jan 19, 2010)

theres also this alan jarvis who is from doncaster, if you read description he enjoys breeding his dogs on his farm in his spare time.... 
Alan Jarvis | ZoomInfo.com

Alan has experience of commercial vehicles. In his spare time, he enjoys rugby, cooking and walking the dogs he breeds on his farm where he lives with wife Beverley and children James and Olivia.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

foxy81 said:


> theres also this alan jarvis who is from doncaster, if you read description he enjoys breeding his dogs on his farm in his spare time....
> Alan Jarvis | ZoomInfo.com
> 
> Alan has experience of commercial vehicles. In his spare time, he enjoys rugby, cooking and walking the dogs he breeds on his farm where he lives with wife Beverley and children James and Olivia.


No, he only _walks_ them in his spare time. It doesn't specify when he breeds them. :lol:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Just as an aside, Cash came to me at just under 16 weeks old , but then I imported him so he had to. However, as long a breeder is committed to socialising the puppy, vaccinating, and starting basic training I see no issues with a pup leaving that late. Although only in certain circumstances I think. Toy breeds tend to stay longer with their breeder anyway, don't they?


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> clearly you have jumped to the conclusion that my pups are sold on at eight weeks!! my father and brother in law are very successful in breeding working and gun dogs and pull thousands of punds for their litters of pups!!![/QUOTE
> 
> Have only just read this post, sorry Op , but we always say they are only. two sorts of breeders.
> 
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> my beloved cocker spaniel had one litter 11 years ago, sadly she was stolen from us, she had puppys as she was from working stock and her pedigree was full of championships, as for the colouring I was referring to how the prices vary in pugs and the ridiculous prices people charge for the colours, my cockers bitches were priced higher than the dogs and also because of the colours she had, ranging from chocolate, blue roan and black, but also because some pups showed more potential than others regarding making good working dogs, she would of only ever had one litter had she not been stolen as one of the pups had a slight over shot jaw so wouldn't want to be producing litters of pups with this defect.
> 
> as for lola our pug we are referring to keeping one of her bitches back is purely because I prefer bitches around the children to dogs our personal preference, and if she is anything like her mum she will make an excellent companion for the many children whom come to live with us, as I have said previously we wont be breeding from any of our pugs in the future due to the stress our pug has gone threw with this her first and last litter.
> 
> ...


Honestly, have you read your posts? You charge more for unusual colours despite the fact the bitch produced what you consider a serious defect in your pups. Does that not sound just a tiny bit hypocritical?

I'm glad you won't be breeding on from your pug, I still live in the vain hope she's been KC registered but I'm doubting it more and more. There is absolutely no need to be breeding on from unregistered dogs, there are thousands of them put to sleep each year, no reason to add to that number.



iamafostermummy said:


> that field is down to my brother in law and father considering my pups didn't leave my home until they were 16 weeks old!! it was blatantly obvious which would do well as working dogs and which didn't cut it!!
> 
> I would say after 15 years in breeding and then training gun dogs/working dogs I could trust my fathers input into which were the ones with the most potential!!
> 
> ...


Really? I have a two year old I'm still not sure I might be able to compete with, but then that's the show breeding in there. All the breeds you mention have a very natural drive, you don't train them to retrieve or hunt, it's in there, and it certainly isn't always apparent by 16 weeks of age. I know a lot of breeders of working/field trial bred litters don't even choose their pup, but just keep what's left after everyone else has chosen because they know the working bit is in there.

Fifteen years is a drop in a very large ocean, I've owned and bred Labradors for ten years, producing just one litter and consider myself very much as a learner. What matters to me (and many others) is quality, not quantity, and if I ever find myself in the position where I find I'm unwilling to learn, I hope one of my very good friends gives me a hefty kick up the posterior and tells me either to buck up or give it up.

You've never answered if your girl has any of the tests in place I posted about, and seem to have this indignant manner that we're all ganging up on you wrongly. No-one's ganging up on anyone in reality, members are always genuinely concerned for the dogs involved, and the people who make the decisions on behalf of these dogs are questioned. If you cannot answer questions on behalf of your dog, who never made the decision to have a litter, then that begs the question whether you know really what you're putting your girl through, and if you know you've skimped on some of the things you could, and should have done.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> If you're talking about Alan Jarvis the racehorse trainer, I believe he is based down south and not in Doncaster. Unlikely to be the same person.
> 
> I would imagine 'Alan Jarvis' is a reasonably common name.
> 
> ...


Alan Jarvis the gun dog breeder in Doncaster married to Beverly Jarvis children Olivia and James.lives in a detached house set back in fields from the motor way going to Doncaster.don't know about a horse trainer named the same.... Health. Checks done on ky bitch her parents the stud dog also.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> Alan Jarvis the gun dog breeder in Doncaster married to Beverly Jarvis children Olivia and James.lives in a detached house set back in fields from the motor way going to Doncaster.don't know about a horse trainer named the same.... Health. Checks done on ky bitch her parents the stud dog also.


You still havent said *which* health tests you have had done on your bitch. And didnt you say the stud was health checked also? Again, which tests were done?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> .... Health. Checks done on ky bitch her parents the stud dog also.


A health check is not the same as a test. A health check is someone looking at a dog, and saying they've got a heart beat and intact reproductive system, waggy at one end, licky at the other.

It's easy enough to say but you've offered no proof as to these health tests, I can easily tell you my flatcoat bitch passed her BVA eye test, including gonioscopy. Whether or not anyone believes me is irrelevant, as I have the paperwork, so could either post copies, or point people in the direction of the KC website where it will, eventually, show up on their database. Same for my now spayed bitches, where there is proof of testing, and the results for anyone to see.

It is of course, entirely up to you, it's not illegal to breed without health tests in place. But it's sad to see yet another thread where the OP is defensive about their situation probably because they realise coming onto a forum of animal lovers, who genuinely care about the problem with over breeding of all animals at the moment, and posting about their reasons for breeding being because your bitch is a fabulous example of the breed, yet you have no evidence for this other than it's your opinion, nor offered any evidence she's been registered with the UK KC, or had the relevant health tests done for the breed, other than your word for it, wasn't perhaps the wisest of moves.

To be honest, I wouldn't put as much info about my family on open forum like that, if I were you I'd edit your post to remove some of the personal info you've put on with names etc.


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## boxermadsam (Nov 30, 2011)

I just wanted to go back to the issue of breeders charging more for bitch puppies or puppies who are a particular colour if I may.

The 2 breeders Naz and Ozzy came from charged a flat rate same price for every pup in the litter, it never occurred to me that any other way existed until I spent more time online looking at puppies. I always wondered why.

At Crufts this year I was playing with a beautiful Bullmastiff. Another couple were picking the breeders brains as they wanted a puppy and wanted to be sure they knew what they should be looking for.

They mentioned that every litter they had seen had different prices for different colours and I swear the breeder nearly blew a gasket!! He told this couple to ''avoid those breeders like the plague'' and when asked why he simply said ''it costs no more money to raise a red puppy than a brindle puppy in the same litter. Those breeders are out for the money and when money is their main interest that's when you walk away''

Just wanted to mention it


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Honestly, have you read your posts? You charge more for unusual colours despite the fact the bitch produced what you consider a serious defect in your pups. Does that not sound just a tiny bit hypocritical?
> 
> I'm glad you won't be breeding on from your pug, I still live in the vain hope she's been KC registered but I'm doubting it more and more. There is absolutely no need to be breeding on from unregistered dogs, there are thousands of them put to sleep each year, no reason to add to that number.
> 
> ...


my bitch is cream/fawn the stud is fawn,so her litter is not charged on her colour of pups,again I will inform you I was referring to post on the price of breeds that people sell pugs from £650 to £3000 depending on their colour how that's implicating me I just don't get it???? but as for cocker spaniels yes prices can and do vary on the colours of the litters,blue roans chocolate and lemon fetch a higher price,my bitch had blue roan and chocolate as both were bitches along with one black and white and one pure black the price for them was exactly the same price!!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

when I get a minute I will add what test my bitch has had and the stud dog,her dna and both her parents were done prior to me buying her,but will add ive not avoided the answer as ive said many times she has had screaning done before she was mated,but for some reason its been over looked,and yes she is full pedigree important again as not to have mated her with a close relative,given her blood lines are all polish and the stud dogs are all English we have avoided this with our bitch.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Yes, we know that many breeders charge higher prices for bitch pups or 'rare' colours, but that isn't right and it isn't a reason for you to do it.
> 
> To be fair, several of us have asked you why you're charging more for bitch pups and all you seem to say is that other Breeders do it. That isn't really a good reason or an explanation as to why you're doing it.
> 
> That can appear to some that you don't really know what you're doing and I still don't understand why you've bred this litter of Pugs.


I want my bitches lines to be introduced here in the uk,she is from Poland not uk breed lines,hence breeding from her this one and only time,ive never had to justify why ive sold my bitches for more than a male puppy and wont start doing this now,as pointed out by another member many breeders charge more for their bitches.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> when I get a minute I will add what test my bitch has had and the stud dog,her dna and both her parents were done prior to me buying her,but will add ive not avoided the answer as ive said many times she has had screaning done before she was mated,but for some reason its been over looked,and yes she is full pedigree important again as not to have mated her with a close relative,given her blood lines are all polish and the stud dogs are all English we have avoided this with our bitch.


See, this is where the BS-o-meter in me goes off...

Why do you need a minute to post what health testing your dog has had done?

Im not even a breeder and I can easily rattle off the health tests needed for my breed. I dont have to look them up, theyre at the tip of my tongue, OFfA hips or PennHip, OFfA eye and heart testing, and thyroid testing that should be repeated yearly.

I dont happen to know off hand what tests are needed for pugs, but in two clicks on my computer I can look them up. Again, no need for in a minute. So Im not sure why its so hard for you to be able to say my bitch has had ___, ___, and ___ tested and her results were ____.

Unless youre BSing. 
And PF members re not stupid.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> I want my bitches lines to be introduced here in the uk,she is from Poland not uk breed lines,hence breeding from her this one and only time,ive never had to justify why ive sold my bitches for more than a male puppy and wont start doing this now,as pointed out by another member many breeders charge more for their bitches.


Before you say you want your bitches' lines introduced into this Country, do you have any idea what those lines are? Were her Parents and Grandparents excellent specimens of the Breed and fully health tested clear?

Have you spoken to someone with a real, indepth knowledge of Pugs as to whether those lines are worth preserving and will add something to the lines being bred from in this Country?

It only takes one dog on her pedigree to not be healthy or passing on a serious fault and you could be doing way more harm than good.

I see also you 'won't' justify why you're charging more for bitches than dogs.

I'm more inclined to believe you can't justify it, because there is absolutely no valid reason for what you're doing and no reputable breeder would do so.

Still waiting now for you to post about health checks carried out on Mum and Dad.

Are they both Kennel Club Registered?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There's a very simple way to prove everything, give her pedigree name and and that of the stud dog.  

The bitch I had a litter out of was Chapelrose Lala Tau of Tarimoor, the bitch I had spayed was Chapelrose Indian Princess (elbow grade is 2:1 which is too high), my flatcoat is Arrowhill Stargazer for Tarimoor, and the bitch pup I kept back is Tarimoor Dark Opal. Simples. 

Indie was hip scored and had her elbows graded, also optigen tested for PRA before I decided to spay her, hips 3:3, elbows 2:1 and clear/normal for PRA, as well as a clear eye cert which has obviously expired. 

Tau was hip scored, had her elbows graded, two BVA eye certs (will do another next year before I start testing her daughter), and tested for PRA and CNM. Her hips are 0/0, elbows 0, and all clear for the other tests. The stud dog I used was also tested clear for EIC. 

Rhuna has had her gonioscopy and eye test, she is booked in to have her plates taken for hips and elbows on 23 September, her dam is probably one of the few flatcoats in the UK with an elbow grade. 

Zasa is clear by parentage for PRA, but will retest to confirm this status along with hips, elbows, current clear eye cert, CNM and EIC. 

I didn't look at one piece of paper, all in my head, ok, so I can't remember the hip scores and elbow grades of all their parents as well, obviously with the exception of Zasa's mum


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

iamafostermummy said:


> but as for cocker spaniels yes prices can and do vary on the colours of the litters,blue roans chocolate and lemon fetch a higher price,my bitch had blue roan and chocolate as both were bitches along with one black and white and one pure black the price for them was exactly the same price!!


This isn't true....only poor breeders charge more for different colours, I've had the different colours and only ever paid the same price, but then I've either bred them or bought from good breeders.

Male and female should also be the same price....it's rubbish to charge more for bitches....it's really just money grabbing!!

OP you need to copy how good breeders breed their litters, not bad ones who don't health test and charge more for colours and sex.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

ok, sorry- i need to chip in here!


iamafostermummy said:


> when I get a minute I will add what test my bitch has had and the stud dog,her dna and both her parents were done prior to me buying her,but will add ive not avoided the answer as ive said many times she has had screaning done before she was mated,but for some reason its been over looked,and yes she is full pedigree important again as not to have mated her with a close relative,given her blood lines are all polish and the stud dogs are all English we have avoided this with our bitch.


i think everything i had wanted to say to this bit has already been covered tbh, but i'll go ahead anyway!
it hasn't been overlooked- you've mentioned them being 'health tested' 'health checked' and now 'screened'... for what? that's what people have been asking- and as SL said, it should be on the tip of your tongue (or fingertips) if they've been done since it will have been recently.
i am genuinely interested in her bloodlines though? could you name a few even in PM for me? i have a few friends considering a well bred, healthy pug so have asked me to look into it.
and when you say continuing her bloodlines, does that mean you are going to campaign your keeper so people know they exist? do you have any exhibitors or well known ETHICAL breeders lined up to have a look at the litter and/or take a pup? just wondering how this one litter is meant to widen a gene pool enough to mention.



iamafostermummy said:


> I want my bitches lines to be introduced here in the uk,she is from Poland not uk breed lines,hence breeding from her this one and only time,ive never had to justify why ive sold my bitches for more than a male puppy and wont start doing this now,as pointed out by another member many breeders charge more for their bitches.


i've sold pups from litters at different prices. it was actually the 'teacups' (god i hate the term) i sold for a different price than the good sized ones, and you know what? i sold them CHEAPER. not because there was anything wrong with them, but because i knew it was a possibility as they get older if they don't have the proper care- so i ensured they insured them and reduced the purchase price to accommodate that a little. now those pups i could have doubled the normal price and still sold them a dozen times over. but i didn't- because the people coming to me knew what they were looking for, and varying prices without a good reason is what they had been told to avoid (though i was able to explain to everyone why the little ones where a little less if asked, even when i knew they weren't the suitable home for the tiny pup.

so yes, prices *can* vary within a litter- the pup with a bad jaw could be cheaper, the one who is the wrong colour is a little cheaper, the one that is too leggy may even be a little cheaper, but i have yet to hear a valid reasoning for bitches and dogs varying in price, and it sounds a bit dodgy to me. and to charge More for a 'rare' colour is a huge red flag to me, and 'rare' often means 'wrong'.

so you see, no one is attacking you in any shape or form. we asked questions, which got deflected so asked again, then got a different answer so asked again, then got shouted at some more for being mean... they were genuine and valid questions.


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## wst (Sep 12, 2010)

there is only two reason's that a "breeder" would charge more for a bitch puppy than a dog puppy first MORE MONEY,second the puppy is sold for breeding in the future!
my own litter were all the same price! but then i did endorce all my pup's!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> See, this is where the BS-o-meter in me goes off...
> 
> Why do you need a minute to post what health testing your dog has had done?
> 
> ...


Exactly - I have a number of bitches and I know exactly what tests they have had and the results/scores for all of them - I know them by heart and could recite them instantly I don't need any time at all to recall them. The OP seems to spend a lot of time writing long posts, but needs time to list the health screens that her 'one' bitch has had?

Yep, the BS-o-meter going off big time!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

According to my little list, pugs need testing for the following:
- hemivertebrae
- primary lens luxation (PLL)
- degenerative myelopathy (DM)
- pug encephalitis
- pyruvate kinase deficiency (PKD)
- May-Hegglin anomaly (MHA)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> According to my little list, pugs need testing for the following:
> - hemivertebrae
> - primary lens luxation (PLL)
> - degenerative myelopathy (DM)
> ...


They can also have the Chiari Malformation that leads to Syringomyelia.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> They can also have the Chiari Malformation that leads to Syringomyelia.


That indeed.

When I was a student, neuro ward was always full of pugs.  We saw more pugs than any other breed.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> According to my little list, pugs need testing for the following:
> - hemivertebrae
> - primary lens luxation (PLL)
> - degenerative myelopathy (DM)
> ...


So many don't test though. Just have a look at the heaps of Champdogs Pug litters advertised. It's incredibly hard to find a litter from health tested parent's.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Pugs are rarely hip scored, but the BMS is fairly high - at 24. 

In the USA, the OFA statistics show 80.2% of all pugs that it evaluated born between 2006 and 2010 were dysplastic.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Before you say you want your bitches' lines introduced into this Country, do you have any idea what those lines are? Were her Parents and Grandparents excellent specimens of the Breed and fully health tested clear?
> 
> Have you spoken to someone with a real, indepth knowledge of Pugs as to whether those lines are worth preserving and will add something to the lines being bred from in this Country?
> 
> ...


actually yes I do know the breed lines of my bitch and her generations as got a full pedigree with breed lines on so know exactly what she is,look I don't have to justify my bitch her breeding my reasons what health checks she has had etc etc,considering I am busy with children all day I work 5-9 on a night seven days a week I have reports to write up every single night,so don't have names at the top of my head like asked!!!! ive just finished work now I have reports to complete,food to prepare for my bitch and other pets,and school things to sort out for the morning if that's ok!!!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

ouesi said:


> See, this is where the BS-o-meter in me goes off...
> 
> Why do you need a minute to post what health testing your dog has had done?
> 
> ...


and as for bull ****!! you can take yours and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!!!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> and as for bull ****!! you can take yours and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!!!


Oh honey, the sun shines ALL over this body 

So, I take it thats a no on legitimate health testing?


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2014)

Training - A WebsiteBuilder Website my brother in laws website all about him and his breeding of gun/working dogs!! as for me I am having no more to do with the pathetic threds from the pathetic members!! believe what you want make of it what you want!! im not a back yard breeder nor am i a bulsshitter as said by another member,ive got more important things to with my time like care for my children and pets!! so make what you want out of what you want!!!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> actually yes I do know the breed lines of my bitch and her generations as got a full pedigree with breed lines on so know exactly what she is,look I don't have to justify my bitch her breeding my reasons what health checks she has had etc etc,considering I am busy with children all day I work 5-9 on a night seven days a week I have reports to write up every single night,so don't have names at the top of my head like asked!!!! ive just finished work now I have reports to complete,food to prepare for my bitch and other pets,and school things to sort out for the morning if that's ok!!!


Best of luck caring for and properly socialising your litter for 8 - 16 weeks with your busy schedule 

You dont have to justify yourself to anyone here (though am wondering what there is to hide? A breeder doing all the right things should be proud!), but you should most _definitely_ feel 100% responsible if *any* of the pups from your litter end up with a hereditary defect, or if any of them end up in rescue or passed around from pillar to post


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

iamafostermummy said:


> Training - A WebsiteBuilder Website my brother in laws website all about him and his breeding of gun/working dogs!! as for me I am having no more to do with the pathetic threds from the pathetic members!! believe what you want make of it what you want!! im not a back yard breeder nor am i a bulsshitter as said by another member,ive got more important things to with my time like care for my children and pets!! so make what you want out of what you want!!!


I did look at that site (I was the one who found it - some mistake over the racehorse trainer of the same name). I think it's incomplete at the moment - there's nothing about the stud dogs or breeding bitches on there.

I couldn't find any mention of health testing; I'm hoping the tests are done because spaniels of all types, Labradors and Goldens are all prone to a number of health issues which can be eliminated or reduced in litters through testing the parents.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> actually yes I do know the breed lines of my bitch and her generations as got a full pedigree with breed lines on so know exactly what she is,look I don't have to justify my bitch her breeding my reasons what health checks she has had etc etc,considering I am busy with children all day I work 5-9 on a night seven days a week I have reports to write up every single night,so don't have names at the top of my head like asked!!!! ive just finished work now I have reports to complete,food to prepare for my bitch and other pets,and school things to sort out for the morning if that's ok!!!


Having the pedigree for your bitch simply means you know the names of her ancestors.

It doesn't mean you know who bred those dogs, whether they were healthy and free from faults or inherited diseases, or how good or bad they were.

It's just a list of names and that's all.

You seem to have plenty time to insult members of this forum, but you don't have time to say what health tests your bitch and the stud dog have had.

You won't say why you're charging more for bitches than dogs and you won't say whether these two are K. C. Registered?

It doesn't matter what your Brother does, it's about what you're doing now.

I hope you've read the list of inherited diseases Shoshannah has posted and I do sincerely hope these pups are born healthy and remain healthy.

From what I've seen here, the odds are stacked against them.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> Training - A WebsiteBuilder Website my brother in laws website all about him and his breeding of gun/working dogs!! as for me I am having no more to do with the pathetic threds from the pathetic members!! believe what you want make of it what you want!! im not a back yard breeder nor am i a bulsshitter as said by another member,ive got more important things to with my time like care for my children and pets!! so make what you want out of what you want!!!


I won't say much except I know of this man....

Also, I'm at a loss to understand how someone who is breeding from their bitch doesn't know their own dog's KC name. Believe it or not, other people are equally, if not more, busy and we still know the details of our dogs, potential breeding stock or otherwise.

Good luck with finding time to raise the puppies.


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

Ok, your last couple of posts just shifted from me from 'he/she hasn't got much of a clue' to 'money making, selfish BYB.

Has this thread been some convoluted plan to surreptitiously promote family members as 'breeders'?

Seriously, I'm confused?

You haven't got time to post about test results, instead you would rather spend time posting about the fact you haven't got time? 

Really? 

No one is believing your crapola anymore I suspect. Pity your poor puppies. You'll probably ignore this post as trolls often do when they have to actually put their money where their mouth is. Oh forgive me I forgot, you get your money from puppy love struck folks instead. 

Trolling or BYB, shame on you.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LOLcats said:


> Ok, your last couple of posts just shifted from me from 'he/she hasn't got much of a clue' to 'money making, selfish BYB.
> 
> Has this thread been some convoluted plan to surreptitiously promote family members as 'breeders'?
> 
> ...


Darn it, you mean they wouldn't have time to put into raising pups properly? And there was me hanging on for pedigree names......


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Darn it, you mean they wouldn't have time to put into raising pups properly? And there was me hanging on for pedigree names......


But your pup would be raised in bliss till 16 weeks and it's lines are like the best polish pugs have to offer! Never mind about actually _knowing_ about the background/lines. It will look super cute!

If you want a bitch it will be 100 extra as it's pedigree name will be more exotic and I haven't got time to think up exotic names what with work an' all so you'll have to pay for my thinking time.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2014)

werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!

this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
it turns out its both male and female!!
soick horror every genetic test done paper work saying it had been sexed by the top vets there is whois trained with the pug breed!!

so she has paid top wack for what she thought a top pug that's got a number of health issues!! I will sleep easily at night me being a back yard breeder knowing nothing of the breed,breeding purely for mony,being a bull shitter a liar oh and a comonor from west Yorkshire!!! others words not mine!!

the buyer has solicitors involved now as this woman owns many awards for crufts!! and sells mutts with a lovely designer price tag to her litters!!

the buyer is coming to view my litter of pugs when they come along,oh and the buyer knows as much as there is to know about pugs hence buying from one of the top breeders!! she has seen all my bitches paper work and pedigrees and agrees it means naff all now given whats happened to her!! oh and my prices are justified also!!

so take ya clever comments and once again shove them where the sun doesn't shine and concentrate on your own pets!! have fun key board warriers!!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


So I take it from that, your bitch isn't registered with the UK KC, and no health tests are in place. More fool the person on your waiting list who did no research once bitten, should be twice shy, but there you go, ya can't educate pork.

What good is your girl gonna do if you do not register her with the UK KC, and you do not prove her, not one bit what so ever. What does that make you? A byb, accept it, because nothing you have said proves anything different.

Ignore list may grow.......


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't consider my comments about health testing clever.  I keep a list of the tests recommended for each breed and use this list to advise my clients accordingly. I always advise health testing as I don't see what harm can come of it - only good can come of it.

I'm sorry your friend purchased a hermaphrodite pug. This is an unfortunate chromosomal defect that can happen in any animal or human at any time, and is not hereditary and not testable for. So whether you are a BYB or a breeder using every health test under the sun, there is an equal chance of this happening.

Your post kind of makes me assume you didn't test your dog after all, now that you are suddenly rubbishing the health tests and laughing at those who were asking about it.

If this is true, then may the gods of the forum have mercy on your soul...  :crying:

*hides*


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!


With respect, that's not something that *CAN* be tested for and *ISN'T* and is merely a freak of nature which occurs in every species (including humans).

In humans it occurs in one in 150,000 births, so when you consider that probably this many Pugs are born worldwide every year, you could have had one turning up in *your* litter.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I must also add that most pugs have multiple health problems, because they are pugs.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

How do you train to be a pug vet anyway? :huh:


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I've said 'pug' too much now. It's gone weird.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


Oh NOW I see the light. Because a pup has developed a condition that nobody could possibly predict or test for, it's okay for you to breed from an untested bitch from unknown Parentage. Two wrongs do make a right then.

And as for this poor woman who bought this pup and is now coming to look at your litter, well that's just proof that some people never learn.

Thank you for your advice to concentrate on our own pets. We do. We concentrate on them very hard and we don't breed indiscriminately from them, to make wads of cash, without a care for the poor pups who will be extremely lucky, in your case, if they don't suffer from a host of debilitating conditions.

Yes, you have every reason to be proud of yourself. The very fact that you have resorted to flinging insults around, instead of posting details of the health tests you 'supposedly' had done on your bitch says everything about you.

A litter of pups due any day. No health tests carried out on either parent. Bitch of unknown Polish parentage and only £850 each! Well done. Your dog breeding family must be proud of you.

I truly hope your pups have inherited better genes than those you have.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


So she knows as much as there is to know about pugs, but is willing to support your pricing guide, yep, right, I have two legs, pull the other one.

PS, I will never ever for one minute ever in my life say I know EVERYTHING about the breeds I own, because the minute you know it all, in my books, you know nowt.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> How do you train to be a pug vet anyway? :huh:


Only the pugnacious really bother...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> I've said 'pug' too much now. It's gone weird.












Wow Shoshannah, nice to meet you at last!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Wow Shoshannah, nice to meet you at last!


That's just scary


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


Well, of course your prices are justified dear. You can justify anything to yourself if you try hard enough.

Well done also for your unbridled happiness and gloating about the poor pup which has suffered so much. After all, that little pup's misfortune has made you feel even more pumped about yourself.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Well, of course your prices are justified dear. You can justify anything to yourself if you try hard enough.
> 
> Well done also for your unbridled happiness and gloating about the poor pup which has suffered so much. After all, that little pup's misfortune has made you feel even more pumped about yourself.


By crikey, I mean, without such reasoned advice how on earth would they know they were entirely justified, or perhaps they'd just ignore anything and justify anything


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, it's just uplifting that we have such wonderful advice being thrown forcefully at us on the forum.

Apparently, it you can find a case where a puppy, bred by someone else, has developed a condition that couldn't possibly have been predicted or tested for in advance, that's all the justification you need to breed a litter of pups from non health tested Parents, of 'iffy' Polish breeding.

You can then charge the thick end of £1000 pounds each for them, but that's neither here or there.

It's not about the money you see.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


Well I have to say OP, I don't think I have ever come across anyone so rude or illiterate as yourself, words fail me.

I'm confused as to why you came on this website in the first place as you state your father and brother in law have bred so many letters from differerant breeds, suerly they could have advised you.?
I presume they have a breeders license and that they pay tax on all these thousands you willingly stated they have made from breeding, which IMO is shocking..


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


So iamafostermummy, despite your repeated assertions that you indeed did have your bitch health tested, you in fact did not? Is that correct?

Had you actually health tested or knew anything about it, you would know that there is no test to prevent producing a hermaphrodite pup. But there are many health issues in pugs that ARE preventable with responsible breeding practices.

Sorry to hear youre not interested in preventing those health issues


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Forgot to say OP, even though Idon't agree with this mating, I do hope your poor bitch whelps safely and that her and her pups do well.
Also as you say you have so much to do , I do hope you find the time to look after them properly, as a litter of pups is very time consuming.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

iamafostermummy said:


> werll for all those clever clogs know it alls abour testing for pugs!! I was speaking to a lady today she bought a pug £1600 for it and im saying it for a very good reason!!
> 
> this so called pug with its so called testing and so called paper work and so called kc,taken to a so called top vets in the uk!!
> it turns out its both male and female!!
> ...


*Puts on best David Attenborough voice*...

And now, we see a prime example of a subspecies of the Human Race - the Uneducated Ignoramus. Unusually in the animal kingdom, this female is proudly boasting her short-comings, in a collection of ways, perhaps, unaware of just how foolish such boasting appears to other sub-species, such as the Greater Educated and the Willing To Learn sub species of the Human Race. One can only hope that the Uneducated Ignoramus female blunders her way to a healthy litter of so-called much loved pugs.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> *Puts on best David Attenborough voice*...
> 
> And now, we see a prime example of a subspecies of the Human Race - the Uneducated Ignoramus. Unusually in the animal kingdom, this female is proudly boasting her short-comings, in a collection of ways, perhaps, unaware of just how foolish such boasting appears to other sub-species, such as the Greater Educated and the Willing To Learn sub species of the Human Race. One can only hope that the Uneducated Ignoramus female blunders her way to a healthy litter of so-called much loved pugs.


Laughed so much at the: 'And now, we see...' part. :lol:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> *Puts on best David Attenborough voice*...


*Puts on Steve Irwin voice*

"Crikey!!!
This puppy is 10 months old and has been referred to a specialist vet because it has gone lame; appears to have breathing difficulties, and a region of pain around the spine.

The owners contacted the breeder, but he/she answered that nothing was wrong with puppy at point of sale, so they take no responsibility."

Specialist vet says "It's a PUG! but some of its health issues could have been avoided by the breeder choosing to make sure their puppies would be free from these defects by testing before breeding."

It goes to small claims court and breeder is found guilty, £850 refund on price of puppy and £900 for specialist vets fees, plus compensation and court costs.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So I take it from that, your bitch isn't registered with the UK KC, and no health tests are in place. More fool the person on your waiting list who did no research once bitten, should be twice shy, but there you go, ya can't educate pork.
> 
> What good is your girl gonna do if you do not register her with the UK KC, and you do not prove her, not one bit what so ever. What does that make you? A byb, accept it, because nothing you have said proves anything different.
> 
> Ignore list may grow.......


my bitch is health tested as she is kc registered!! was saying doeant matter what tests and papers you have this can still get you a dog that's got so many health conditions and not what it appears on the paperwork!! its a well known fact that many breeds for showing is being in bred to get that perfect show dog!! ive known many a barbaric breeding in certain breeds and to me its in humane and this tends to be you crufts entires!!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Honeys mum said:


> Forgot to say OP, even though Idon't agree with this mating, I do hope your poor bitch whelps safely and that her and her pups do well.
> Also as you say you have so much to do , I do hope you find the time to look after them properly, as a litter of pups is very time consuming.


thankyou for this post,there will be four adults at home to ensure my btich and her pups get more than enough support,i work evernings and day time I work from home,my bitch could have her pups any day now as pugs can go into early labour,i also have a vet at hand should they be needed and a lovely lady also here for support during the labour and birth again if needed,ive also bought today vitamin tablets to give calcium on my vets advice,and lactol milk,although I did get this when my cocker had her litter and didn't need it but best to have just incase.

everything else has been steralised ready for the impending birth,good news is my bitches bleeding is almost no existent now,so quite certain she had lost a pup or maybe more.but thankyou for the heads up regarding the hard work involved in a litter of pups.we have also asked no visitors now to the home until pups arrive and they have got to four weeks in order to minimise any nastys in the home,my bitch is also well away from my other three dogs,upstairs sleeping in my room and very settled.thanks again!!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Honeys mum said:


> Well I have to say OP, I don't think I have ever come across anyone so rude or illiterate as yourself, words fail me.
> 
> I'm confused as to why you came on this website in the first place as you state your father and brother in law have bred so many letters from differerant breeds, suerly they could have advised you.?
> I presume they have a breeders license and that they pay tax on all these thousands you willingly stated they have made from breeding, which IMO is shocking..


contact my brother in law on if he pays taxes on his breeding!! I was hoping another owner that has been breeding pugs would be able to advise why my bitch was bleeding given the vet couldn't say why,i was also informed to get a vet who specialises in pugs??? as far as I was concerned after dozens of calls there isn't any!! wrong I was because the lady who got her pug with heath problems from had indeed be informed this is the vet that sexed her puppy and gave paperwork to say so!! how can that be the case when its clear that pup isn't rite what so ever!!

end of the day my pugs are exactly as they should be nothing more nothing less,with kc registered papers and paperwork on the health tests done,im also seriously considering having dna testing to pass on to the buyers.i can not guarantee that who buys the pups will keep them for all of their lives but will have papers signed to say if for any reason a pup has to be rehomed I will be informed and offered to pup back to me!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> contact my brother in law on if he pays taxes on his breeding!! I was hoping another owner that has been breeding pugs would be able to advise why my bitch was bleeding given the vet couldn't say why,*i was also informed to get a vet who specialises in pugs??? *as far as I was concerned after dozens of calls there isn't any!! wrong I was because the lady who got her pug with heath problems from had indeed be informed this is the vet that sexed her puppy and gave paperwork to say so!! how can that be the case when its clear that pup isn't rite what so ever!!
> 
> end of the day my pugs are exactly as they should be nothing more nothing less,with kc registered papers and paperwork on the health tests done,im also seriously considering having dna testing to pass on to the buyers.i can not guarantee that who buys the pups will keep them for all of their lives but will have papers signed to say if for any reason a pup has to be rehomed I will be informed and offered to pup back to me!!


No you weren't!  You were advised to go and find a vet that had experience breeding - many don't. My own vet doesn't and (with her knowledge and blessing) I see another vet regarding my bitch's when having a litter.

Perhaps if you were to actually read what has been written it may help.  All I have seen is you get up on your high horse and rant, often about things that have no relevance - without a full stop in sight too 

In doing so you have dug a hole for yourself and nothing you have said, Including the protestations that your bitch is health tested (the bull***t meter is still going on that one) you are still a back yard breeder. The number of litters is irrelevant as is the love you have for your dogs. It's still bad breeding practice. You charge different prices for different colours (in cockers ffs!), you charge more for bitches, and you don't even know what colours the breed that you are having a litter from comes in! That is disgraceful - you are breeding a breed of dog you clearly have no idea about. 

You can protest as much as you like, it won't change that.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> my bitch is health tested as she is kc registered!!


Then why cant you easily say which tests she has had done? You dont even have to give her registered name and results, just say which tests you have had done on her. They should be right a the tip of your tongue, yet you wont say... Why?



iamafostermummy said:


> was saying doeant matter what tests and papers you have this can still get you a dog that's got so many health conditions and not what it appears on the paperwork!! its a well known fact that many breeds for showing is being in bred to get that perfect show dog!! ive known many a barbaric breeding in certain breeds and to me its in humane and this tends to be you crufts entires!!


With responsible breeding practices you do NOT produce unhealthy, unsound dogs. Because responsible breeding isnt just about health testing. Its also pedigree research and knowledge of what is behind that dog and what that dog is likely to produce when combined with another well-researched dog.



iamafostermummy said:


> end of the day my pugs are exactly as they should be nothing more nothing less,with kc registered papers and paperwork on the health tests done,im also seriously considering having dna testing to pass on to the buyers.i can not guarantee that who buys the pups will keep them for all of their lives but will have papers signed to say if for any reason a pup has to be rehomed I will be informed and offered to pup back to me!!


Again, WHAT tests have you had done? What paperwork do you have? I have paperwork on the health tests frankly doesnt mean jack $hit. But its a great line to feed unsuspecting buyers who would never think to ask you to actually produce that paperwork only to realize its a note from the vet saying this dog is fit to breed. That is NOT health testing.


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## wst (Sep 12, 2010)

to the op please tell me how you know that your bitch wont produce a hermaphrodite pup?


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

hemivertebre screaning done on my bitch,also tested for Pug dog encephalitis also patella luxation,parents of my bitch dna tested,as for how do I know my bitch wont throw the same kind of puppy the lady I spok to yesterday I don't know that she wont nor does anyone else,although very unlikely as there is no history with her or the stud dogs.nothing more to say what so ever on the subject,oh and also my bitch was swabbed to make sure she had no infections in her before she was mated.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

wst said:


> to the op please tell me how you know that your bitch wont produce a hermaphrodite pup?


I don't 100% know she wont throw one,nor does anyone else who breads a litter,no history in her lines nor the stud dogs,and if she does then she does and will have what ever operation is recommend by my vet,but wont be sold on either to anyone,kept behind and offered to a family member.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

iamafostermummy said:


> hemivertebre screaning done on my bitch,also tested for Pug dog encephalitis also patella luxation,parents of my bitch dna tested,as for how do I know my bitch wont throw the same kind of puppy the lady I spok to yesterday I don't know that she wont nor does anyone else,although very unlikely as there is no history with her or the stud dogs.nothing more to say what so ever on the subject,oh and also my bitch was swabbed to make sure she had no infections in her before she was mated.


What was the patella luxation test?


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> my bitch is cream/fawn the stud is fawn,so her litter is not charged on her colour of pups,again I will inform you I was referring to post on the price of breeds that people sell pugs from £650 to £3000 depending on their colour how that's implicating me I just don't get it???? but as for cocker spaniels yes prices can and do vary on the colours of the litters,blue roans chocolate and lemon fetch a higher price,my bitch had blue roan and chocolate as both were bitches along with one black and white and one pure black the price for them was exactly the same price!!


OP was your cocker bitch a working or show type cocker.?, to have produced those colours you mentioned she must have had both parti coloured and solid lines in her pedigree,which is not ideal, and any decent breeder wouldn't think of doing.
Don't you know that you do not mix parti colours and solids together.?
And please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, because I bred, showed and judged cockers for thirty years,only having a litter when I needed a new puppy to show.
I now prefer to involve myself in rescue dogs, in which I find very rewarding.

you seen to be digging yourself deeper and deeper into a big hole with your remarks most of which you know nothing about.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> What was the patella luxation test?


I was wondering about that myself.

I'd love to hear what form that particular 'test' took.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

If your bitch was a Polish import and you registered her with the UK Kennel Club, does that mean you got to choose her name? We had great fun picking the KC name for my mums dog when she registered her for agility


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Honeys mum said:


> OP was your cocker bitch a working or show type cocker.?, to have produced those colours you mentioned she must have had both parti coloured and solid lines in her pedigree,which is not ideal, and any decent breeder wouldn't think of doing.
> Don't you know that you do not mix parti colours and solids together.?
> And please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, because I bred, showed and judged cockers for thirty years,only having a litter when I needed a new puppy to show.
> I now prefer to involve myself in rescue dogs, in which I find very rewarding.
> ...


she was full working was my cocker and she was chocolate,the stud dog was full lemon also working dog,ive not said you don't know what your talking about,it was 11 years ago my bitch had her litter of cockers,the stud dog we used we travelled down to duram three times,i will dig out her kn papers and list her family history as its all in there along with the 52 ftc,still have her full pedigree just stored away in the loft along with other paper work,but I will produce is,not calling me a liar any longer!!!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Little P said:


> If your bitch was a Polish import and you registered her with the UK Kennel Club, does that mean you got to choose her name? We had great fun picking the KC name for my mums dog when she registered her for agility


she was 16 weeks when we got her home with us and already registered,name we chose for her is lola her pet name her being a pet,she isn't an agility dog she is a pet only.my husband does all the registration with all or pets as he did with the mating, tests, vets visits,but the cocker litter we had my father and the stud dog owner with my husband chose their kennel club names for them.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> she was 16 weeks when we got her home with us and already registered,name we chose for her is lola her pet name her being a pet,she isn't an agility dog she is a pet only.my husband does all the registration with all or pets as he did with the mating, tests, vets visits,but the cocker litter we had my father and the stud dog owner with my husband chose their kennel club names for them.


Is she registered with the Kennel Club as Lola? What is her Registered name?


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> What was the patella luxation test?


grade one on that test,will need to speak with my husband regarding every single detail he dealt with the testing and everything else,at work until 11 tonight as half day taken to attend a funeral,so will be tomorrow,saying that my husbands advice was no need to justify anything to anyone regarding our pets!!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

iamafostermummy said:


> grade one on that test,will need to speak with my husband regarding every single detail he dealt with the testing and everything else,at work until 11 tonight as half day taken to attend a funeral,so will be tomorrow,saying that my husbands advice was no need to justify anything to anyone regarding our pets!!


Not asking for justification, was just wondering how the test was carried out. 

Shame she's not clear for patella luxation.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I can't believe this thead is still going on :lol: :lol: :lol:

iamafostermummy, you don't honestly think you are convincing people that you are anything other than a byb do you :laugh:


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Is she registered with the Kennel Club as Lola? What is her Registered name?


lola is her pet name and I am not disclosing her kc name on here!!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Not asking for justification, was just wondering how the test was carried out.
> 
> Shame she's not clear for patella luxation.


it was done rotating her joints!!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> .... my husbands advice was no need to justify anything to anyone regarding our pets!!


If they are purely pets, then no- I quite agree.

But you are breeding from them, so they aren't purely pets - and any form of illness, disability or health issue is your responsibility as a responsible breeder, so people are quite justified in asking.

I do hope the sire of the litter has no patellar luxation. Be a shame if these puppies went lame and needed surgery - it's not cheap, either. Will you be telling the new owners about the grade 1 patella?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> lola is her pet name and I am not disclosing her kc name on here!!


And she has Grade One Patella Luxation? That will very likely be passed on to her pups and, if severe enough, will require surgery.

That alone should have been reason not to breed from her.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2014)

my vet said there was no reason to breed from her,the stud dog owner said there was no reason to breed from her,the breeder of my bitch said there was no reason to breed from her,there is no history of problems in breeding lines,one pup from her litter had a minor skin infection and cleared after treatment,i will not post my bitches kennel club name on here,you asked what tests she has had ive told you what,i don't see anyone else who has had a litter of pups having to justify every single thing and I am not no more,im going to concentrate on whats needed now and not key board warriors wanting their pound of flesh!!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

iamafostermummy said:


> *my vet said there was no reason to breed from her,the stud dog owner said there was no reason to breed from her,the breeder of my bitch said there was no reason to breed from her*,there is no history of problems in breeding lines,one pup from her litter had a minor skin infection and cleared after treatment,i will not post my bitches kennel club name on here,you asked what tests she has had ive told you what,i don't see anyone else who has had a litter of pups having to justify every single thing and I am not no more,im going to concentrate on whats needed now and not key board warriors wanting their pound of flesh!!!


PMSL :laugh: so why are you breeding if everyone said there was no reason to :laugh:

This is getting ridiculous. I would take your husband's advice and quit LOL - you don't seem to realise the big hole you have dug for yourself. You can protest as loudly as you like, you can look up stuff and come up with answers that you now realise sound plausible, but you won't change any minds about being a byb. I'm amazed someone as busy as you are is spending so much time on the internet trying to justify yourself and cover up the fact you are a byb.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> my vet said there was no reason to breed from her,the stud dog owner said there was no reason to breed from her,the breeder of my bitch said there was no reason to breed from her


:laugh:

Oh dear


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

iamafostermummy said:


> my vet said there was no reason to breed from her,the stud dog owner said there was no reason to breed from her,the breeder of my bitch said there was no reason to breed from her,*there is no history of problems in breeding lines*,one pup from her litter had a minor skin infection and cleared after treatment,i will not post my bitches kennel club name on here,you asked what tests she has had ive told you what,i don't see anyone else who has had a litter of pups having to justify every single thing and I am not no more,im going to concentrate on whats needed now and not key board warriors wanting their pound of flesh!!!


But what about her luxating patellae?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Knee Problems In Your Dog - Patellar Luxation - Luxating Patella

_*Should I Breed My Pet If It Has This Problem ?*

T*hat would not be a good idea.

We know that dogs that have this problem tend to pass it on to their puppies. Most dogs that develop luxating patellas appear normal at birth and as puppies. But the genes they inherited from their dame and sire make it likely the problem will occur later. *If you are a serious breeder or a conscientious occasional breeder, have your dogs certified free of the trait by the OFA or ,at the very least, have your veterinarian thoroughly examine your pet for a tendency to patellar luxation before considering breeding. A technique that measures Q-angle might be helpful in choosing dogs least likely to pass on patella luxation tendencies. _​


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

iamafostermummy said:


> lola is her pet name and I am not disclosing her kc name on here!!


Why not? Nobody can use that information for anything, it's HER Registered name, right?

I don't believe you have had any health tests carried out and I don't believe your bitch from Poland is registered with the British Kennel Club.

Therefore, her progeny can't be registered.

Can I just ask, what was the point of having her vet checked for Patella Luxation when, after a positive diagnosis, you went ahead and mated her anyway?

You have lost any little bit of credibility you may once have had on this forum.

Your Husband is right. Put the shovel down. Stop digging.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

I think that you're all missing the point here - she has 4 legs, a head and a tail. Whether or not she looks like a Pug is irrelevant really. If the OP advertises them as Pugs, then sadly there will be people out there who will give her money! That's all that matters really.......


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## SpringerLover (Jul 25, 2014)

Luxating pataella? Oh dear. 

Coming out of lurk mode to say, I had a sweet little tiny Yorkshire Terrier bitch who came, quite a lot of years ago now, from a conscientious show breeder. In those days, I don't think tests for this condition existed.

My little Poppy developed it very severely at about the age of five. It crippled both her back legs. She had thousands of pounds of surgery and could, after this, hobble a bit. I hope she wasn't in discomfort, but she spent the rest of her life as an invalid. No walks, little play, no real joy in life.

I have a Springer Spaniel now who you can be certain I obtained from fully health tested parents, and I would never ever buy a puppy of a breed susceptible to this condition without making sure that both parents were clear of it.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Gone running to the Champdogs forum now, have we?

The dog forum world is very small... You should keep that in mind before spouting of about everyone on here and how mean we are


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> Gone running to the Champdogs forum now, have we?
> 
> The dog forum world is very small... You should keep that in mind before spouting of about everyone on here and how mean we are


Champdogs? And she thought she was given a hard time here LOL


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Champdogs? And she thought she was given a hard time here LOL


We're cute fluffy kittens compared to them lol!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

So no health tests, no KC registration, otherwise what on earth would you be worried about putting her KC name on here? Simple fact is, you've posted the details of your family on here, which is much more harmful, and if you knew the first thing about showing dogs, you'd know your dog's name is published regularly in catalogues, as is your own name, address is optional.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> Gone running to the Champdogs forum now, have we?
> 
> The dog forum world is very small... You should keep that in mind before spouting of about everyone on here and how mean we are


LMAO! She's so obvious that it took longer for me to find the Champdogs site than her thread :lol:

All I can say is ... Popcorn, anyone?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

OP, you're a liar, plain and simple. Pugs should not be bred unless they have had all possible health tests, IMO, it's simply not ethical. I sincerely hope your dog does not produce puppies born to suffer, because you seem to want the money.

Had she been health tested, you would be proudly displaying the results, as other conscientious breeders do on here. 

Your spelling is atrocious. Yes, I feel like being a bitch having read your total bull$hit over the past few pages.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> she was full working was my cocker and she was chocolate,the stud dog was full lemon also working dog,ive not said you don't know what your talking about,it was 11 years ago my bitch had her litter of cockers,the stud dog we used we travelled down to duram three times,i will dig out her kn papers and list her family history as its all in there along with the 52 ftc,still have her full pedigree just stored away in the loft along with other paper work,but I will produce is,not calling me a liar any longer!!!


OP if you read my post properly I did not call you a liar,(although I'm sure you are from reading your posts) along with being a byb who is only in it for the money, and not in the interest of the breed.
You have bred from a bitch that should never have been bred from, which is totally irresponceable and unaceptable.
I'm pleased to see that Champdogs have sussed you out already,even under a different name,one wonders where will you go next for advice, perhaps to your family, who according to you know everything.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

OP I forgot to mention, that if your four bitches you stated you have on Champdogs, haven't been spayed I wonder if you have a breeders licence, because you may need one, depending on the area you live in.


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## wst (Sep 12, 2010)

just read the thread on champdog's and then all of a sudden all the post's relating to this thread had gone!

so please anyone from here who is going to post on there please dont mention this thread! we dont want anyone getting into trouble.(seeing as in her words we treated her horrendously and were nasty to her)


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## astra (Sep 27, 2010)

I know nothing about dog breeding, but read this section of the forum with interest.

But what I do think is disgraceful, is breeding a dog knowing it has a health problem. 

My Mum took on a little dog thinking it would be nice to have a little companion, (she's in bad health herself due to kidney failure). 

But sadly as lovely as what he is, and we wouldn't change him for the world, he has health problems, he has allergies to the point he has to wear a cone 24/7, and has luxating patella in both his back legs. At the moment it's mild, with one leg being slightly worse, but to see him occasionally hopping along is heart breaking enough, and we are aware he may need surgery further down the line.

So OP, for you to breed your poor little dog, knowing you could pass health problems on to those poor little puppies, and cause heart break to the potential owners. Shame on you, how do you sleep at night?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

wst said:


> just read the thread on champdog's and then all of a sudden all the post's relating to this thread had gone!
> 
> so please anyone from here who is going to post on there please dont mention this thread! we dont want anyone getting into trouble.(seeing as in her words we treated her horrendously and were nasty to her)


I'm not sure if the same applies to Champdogs but I believe it is against the rules on most forums to post links to other forums. I suspect that is the case on champdogs and I think it would be the same on this forum.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2014)

astra said:


> I know nothing about dog breeding, but read this section of the forum with interest.
> 
> But what I do think is disgraceful, is breeding a dog knowing it has a health problem.
> 
> ...


I sleep very well at night thanks for your opinion,as ive said on the other thred I have made mistakes and will learn from my mistakes as I will learn form other members of forums,am I going to do word for word of my mistakes ??? no not at all there would be no point in doing so!! im not perfect my pets are not perfect also I don't think there is a perfect person or pet!! but my pets are loved and well taken care of as are my children and my family!! but if and I mean if there is a problem with any of my bitches pups they will receive treatment and wont be sold on as a perfect pet to a buyer,and if I have to keep any of the pups in the family and get spayed/neutered then this will also be done too,so we will leave it as it is thankyou though for your concerns and oppinions!!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2014)

Honeys mum said:


> OP I forgot to mention, that if your four bitches you stated you have on Champdogs, haven't been spayed I wonder if you have a breeders licence, because you may need one, depending on the area you live in.


I had a working cocker spaniel who had one litter of eight pups 11 years ago,i own a male Pomeranian neutered by ourselves,i own a female Pomeranian spayed by ourselves,two pugs not speyed yet,one waiting on her litter,the other having her hernia done then spayed,i don't need a licence for my pets,i do need a licence for my employment which I do have,and I will be having my annual inspection tomorrow to continue with my work I do,oh I live in Yorkshire don't have kennels.


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## spoiltmadam (May 21, 2013)

iamafostermummy said:


> I sleep very well at night thanks for your opinion,as ive said on the other thred I have made mistakes and will learn from my mistakes as I will learn form other members of forums,am I going to do word for word of my mistakes ??? no not at all there would be no point in doing so!! im not perfect my pets are not perfect also I don't think there is a perfect person or pet!! but my pets are loved and well taken care of as are my children and my family!! but if and I mean if there is a problem with any of my bitches pups they will receive treatment and wont be sold on as a perfect pet to a buyer,and if I have to keep any of the pups in the family and get spayed/neutered then this will also be done too,so we will leave it as it is thankyou though for your concerns and oppinions!!


Unfortunately it is not you that will suffer from the mistakes you will learn from though is it!


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Why (and how) is this thread still going...


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2014)

spoiltmadam said:


> Unfortunately it is not you that will suffer from the mistakes you will learn from though is it!


obviously not,trying my best to rectify and we learn by our mistakes,better it be mine than other peoples,ive followed peoples advice and been and got calcium tablets for my bitch should she need them,im also going back to the vets tomorrow to see if they will give her some antibiotics that I now know should of been given the first day she bled,she isn't now,infact she is just wanting to nest and is off her food,so ive asked advice of someone on what to do as I don't want this to harm her!!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

iamafostermummy said:


> obviously not,* trying my best to rectify and we learn by our mistakes,* better it be mine than other peoples,ive followed peoples advice and been and got calcium tablets for my bitch should she need them,im also going back to the vets tomorrow to see if they will give her some antibiotics that I now know should of been given the first day she bled,she isn't now,infact she is just wanting to nest and is off her food,so ive asked advice of someone on what to do as I don't want this to harm her!!


what? just what.
you have knowingly bred from a bitch with a knee problem. you did that knowingly, not accidentally. it wasn't a mistake, it was a choice. or have we missed something?

just for goodness sake don't give her the calcium until after the birth unless she shows signs of needing it (go do some reading on those signs in your free time spent at the computer...)


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## astra (Sep 27, 2010)

iamafostermummy said:


> I sleep very well at night thanks for your opinion,as ive said on the other thred I have made mistakes and will learn from my mistakes as I will learn form other members of forums,am I going to do word for word of my mistakes ??? no not at all there would be no point in doing so!! im not perfect my pets are not perfect also I don't think there is a perfect person or pet!! but my pets are loved and well taken care of as are my children and my family!! but if and I mean if there is a problem with any of my bitches pups they will receive treatment and wont be sold on as a perfect pet to a buyer,and if I have to keep any of the pups in the family and get spayed/neutered then this will also be done too,so we will leave it as it is thankyou though for your concerns and oppinions!!


The problem is you may not know what health problems the pups will have from birth.

My Mum's dog was 18 months when she took him on. His previous owners had split up, and the husband worked long hours, so he rehomed his dog. For the first 8 months he was fine, and then the chewing, biting and scratching started. We took him to the vet, it's been a long slow process, but we now know he has storage and dust mite allergies.

I can't put into words how upsetting it is to see this poor dog, whimpering as he really wants to self mutilate himself, or hopping along because of his bad legs.

My Mum can't always have him, so I share the care of him, as he can keep us awake all night with the noise of scratching his plastic hood, and crying with the frustration of not being able to itch himself. He's worse at the moment as he's having the allergies introduced into his system in hope of curing him, but if that doesn't work he will spend the rest of life in a plastic cone, and yet more tablets pumped into his system.

The contract he came with looked great, and the breeders came across as kind and caring. I can see why his previous owner was fooled. But to look at Mum's dog you can see straight away he's been badly bred  and of course when I contacted the breeders to tell of his problems, they didn't give two flying hoots, and I expect they will still breed and churn out unhealthy pups.

It's too late for your girl now, but hopefully after reading all this advice you will never breed again, and certainly not one with a known health problem.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

iamafostermummy said:


> but my pets are loved and well taken care of


But they aren't, are they? No-one who truly loves their pet would potentially exacerbate the bad knee by deliberately breeding. No-one who cared would breed from a dog with known problems as you have. Don't give us the 'I love my pets' line, regularly trotted out by BYBs, because you don't love them _enough_ to bother doing health tests. You're not breeding to improve the line, you're breeding because it will give you money, plain and simple, from a breed which commands stupid money and if it's not your dog which will have problems, the puppies likely will. You won't be able to hold back pups with problems because they probably won't display until the dogs are older. Utterly selfish.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Calcium tablets? Please do not give her any calcium supplements while she's pregnant.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Funny how the spelling has suddenly improved.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

To the OP- have you found out yet where to buy KY Jelly?


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2014)

At least you have learned from your mistakes , Please tell us how the Pups are doing (preferably on a different thread because this one's too long) Make sure her pups do not have a sharp nature (that is not a health problem, therefor won't be in the vet record for your dog or their ancestors) and if they do have a sharp nature please advise the potential buyers of this as they cannot be bred because they can turn on their litter. My Nan works for a woman who has a lot of Papillions and turned on her pups, causing one of the puppies to almost die. When the fight was broken up the puppy's head was tilted to one side and it was bitten in the eye (pup is fine now, mum has been re homed.) Anyway good luck on re homing the pups and best wishes for you and your family.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> To the OP- have you found out yet where to buy KY Jelly?


Yes - she's sending her hubby for it because she always stays away from that sort of aisle. 

Doubt she'll be back though, tbh. We're all nasty and offensive, after all


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> Yes - she's sending her hubby for it because she always stays away from that sort of aisle.


No paracetamol for headaches then, and god knows what happens when it's that time of the month.


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