# Muzzle advice please



## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

i have a 3 year old gsd bitch who when out on walks if she sees a dog she doesnt know will show her teeth at them due to being bitten by two chihuahuas when she was five months old, she has never bitten another dog i think she does it to tell them "go away". Anyway today in the woods we saw my neighbour approaching with her huskey who she has always hated since she was a puppy for no apparent reason he is a lovely dog, i put her on lead while we passed each other and she just lunged at him and tried to attack him so obviously he reacted back resulting in a 3 second fight i apologised to his not too impressed owner but it shook me up she isnt usually an aggressive dog and has always been a big baby but i was wondering if anyone could recommend a suitable muzzle she could wear just for when we are out on a walk and still let her be off lead, she has very good recall but i dont want to risk this happening again. Sorry for the long post


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I wouldn`t rely on a muzzle - it`s not going to stop the behaviour. Instead, put your dog on lead and detour. Keep space between her and the other dog. That way you are teaching her a different strategy and also calming the situation. Reward her when she is calm again.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

A well fitting basket muzzle like a Baskerville would be your best bet. They are comfortable and will allow her to drink and pant.

Make sure you desensitise her to it first, don't just shove it on


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

A nylon muzzle is very good. The dog can still pant in it so its not too restrictive. There is also the baskerville muzzle.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Baskerville, easy to get hold of, not expensive and worked well with Rupert for several years before it started to fall apart. There's also the Baskerville Ultra but I've no experience of those.

Whatever muzzle you go with it needs to be the basket type rather than the fabric sort that holds the mouth shut. Those ones aren't suitable for wearing while exercising. 

A muzzle will not stop her doing what she does though, all it does is stop her being able to actually bite. She could still frighten another dog or cause another dog to retaliate. Have you done any work with her on her problems with other dogs?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Superash said:


> i have a 3 year old gsd bitch who when out on walks if she sees a dog she doesnt know will show her teeth at them due to being bitten by two chihuahuas when she was five months old, she has never bitten another dog i think she does it to tell them "go away". Anyway today in the woods we saw my neighbour approaching with her huskey who she has always hated since she was a puppy for no apparent reason he is a lovely dog, i put her on lead while we passed each other and she just lunged at him and tried to attack him so obviously he reacted back resulting in a 3 second fight i apologised to his not too impressed owner but it shook me up she isnt usually an aggressive dog and has always been a big baby but i was wondering if anyone could recommend a suitable muzzle she could wear just for when we are out on a walk and still let her be off lead, she has very good recall but i dont want to risk this happening again. Sorry for the long post


To begin with please do not excuse your dog's behaviour by saying she was bitten by two Chis when she was 5 months old.

She is now 3 years old, so you have had 2.5 years to deal with this correctly; so either you have not or the dog has a very poor temperament indeed.

ALL dogs are capable of aggressive behaviour, so it is pointless saying she is not an "aggressive dog"; She has exhibited aggressiveness by trying to attack another dog.

So you can either start something you should have done a long time ago, ie follow a programme of systematic desensitisation and counter conditioning or you can put up with what you have got and just keep her on a lead and muzzle.

Remember, this behaviour could put her and you at risk under the DDA.

As for letting her off the lead with a muzzle on, a dog and human can be badly hurt by a dog wearing a muzzle and they can come off.

The best muzzle for exercising a dog is the Baskerville design, the new one is made of much better plastic and is neoprene lined, has a two straps and the dog can take titbits whilst wearing it, drink and pant.

I would recommend seeking the advice of an experienced trainer and/or behaviourist if you wish to tackle the underlying cause for her behaviour.


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

thanks all for your replies. I havent done any work with her really co i never saw it as a problem she never approaches other dogs but just shows her teeth but she has been bitten a couple of times for doing this and came back to me crying with her tail between her legs she really is a mard arse! Its just this particular dog he passes the house 6 times a day and she goes mad i dont know why she hates him he has only ever been nice i just. Wanted a muzzle that she couldnt actually bite through i cant really avoid him coz we use the same woods as its on our doorstep, oh works shifts so when hes on earlies i take the dogs there .


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smokeybear- whilst informative, clear and I'm sure well intentioned, your post seems a little harsh in the way it is written 

To assume that the dog has a poor temperament without meeting her or likewise that the owner has not worked hard enough is not fair. 
I don't know whether the OP was using the fact that her dog was attacked by other dogs a while back as an excuse for her problems with other dogs. To me it seemed more of an explanation of how and why the fearful and reactive behaviour first started; what the trigger was, how it was reinforced etc...

OP- your suggestion of using a muzzle is a sensible one. In fact it may well be incredibly useful in dissading owners of exhuberant dogs from allowing their dogs to rudely approach yours. People tend to give people with muzzled dogs more space and for DINOS (Dogs In Need Of Space) this is incredibly useful. With this new found space you can work on desensitizing and counter-conditioning her emotional response to other dogs.

In the short and long term, you need to think about her thresholds. What distance can she deal with the presence of another dog, without panicking and reacting? Keep to that distance on walks, in every case possible. Keep her safe. Walk away, cross sides of the road... body block any offlead approaching dogs and ask their owners to recall them. Sounds pedantic but your contract is with your dog, not with someone else who wants their dog to interact and play with everyone and everything.

In the long term I'd definitely think about contacting a decent behaviourist. Go for someone who uses positive methods, NOT someone who suggest dominating and putting her in her place. 
The APBC and APDT are good places to start:
The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

You may find that methods/programmes such as BAT in addition to standard desensitization and counterconditioning may be recommended by your behaviourists. All about teaching the dog to make better, more socially desirable choices in difficult social situations, to the point where they become relaxed in such a setup and are no longer fearful and need to react reactively or aggressively.

Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA

With regards to muzzle types:

The material, nylon ones are not suitable for exercising the dog in- they restrict breathing too much and do not allow the dog to drink. Only really suitable for emergency type use- e.g. emergency vet exam etc...

I'd suggest the baskerville muzzles. They come with an extra grid bit in the middle which can be removed to feed treats into more easily.

Large plastic lurcher/greyhound muzzles often also fit many non-sighthounds too (collie types for example).

Similarly there is the new Baskerville Ultra muzzle, which comes in a wide variety of sizes for different breeds and muzzle shapes and has a nice shape at the front which is good for fitting treats into for training. 

Baskerville Ultra Muzzle - YouTube

Good luck and keep us updated


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I really would advise you to contact a local behaviourist and soon. A GSD with fear aggressive tendencies is an accident waiting to happen. 
Please do not allow this dog off the lead for two reasons: One being an accident could accur and 2 you are not close enough to protect your dog when she feels threatened. Your dog is fearful because she has been attacked before, her growls were her way of protecting herself and that got her attacked as well. In a situation where your dog growls, you should be by her side to block her from anything she perceives as a threat. You need to show her that you can control the situation and that she dosen't need to fight for herself. 
I put my dog behind me when an aggressive dog approaches us, Rio dosen't even grunt because I will deal with it and she trusts me. 
Your dog was probably sending you a lot of signals as you walked towards the husky but you might not of picked them up. She was above her threshold and since the growling didn't work, she needed to escelate her behaviour. That is where the lunge and bite came from. 
A behaviourist can teach you to manage this dog and her behaviour safely. 
Hope this helps


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

​. I'm sorry i posted this now, i think you are all going over the top. None of you know my dog and i do she isnt people aggressive i have really young kids next door who she plays with and they adore her she is great with dogs she knows ie jack russell staffie inuit and as for dda according to smokeybear she dont know nowt it is just the one dog who she hates forget it i only asked for advice about a muzzle which i got some helpful replies off some people thank you to them. But you always get the high and mighty knowalls on here well in future i will just look at the good pics and comments


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I had a problem with Roxy snapping at people who got too close when she was leashed so did get a muzzle for my own peace of mind.

I got one of these as I was a bit worried that the basket style would make her look even more fierce. This just looked like a big halti, yet allowed her to pant still drink when she was wearing it but we did only use it for shorter walks.

Reviews, Tests of Trixie Nylon Muzzle Band

Completely agree with Lemmsys post regarding thresholds, not always easy,I know from experience. ALso maybe (if you can) try & seek a behaviourist or even a class or someone you can walk your dog with. Honestly I never thought Roxy would be able to walk with another dog but we have manged it now. Although we haven't been able to overcome her problems (it will still be a while) we are gradually getting there :thumbup1:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I personally wouldn't use one of those. If the dog can open its mouth enough to pant and drink then it can open its mouth enough to nip. I use a leather and metal basket muzzle myself as Rupert tends to snap bits of the plastic ones with his launching himself down onto his face to roll  

I would also agree with Lemmsys post about working on the behaviour and keeping her under threshold. For her sake as well as anyone elses. If she's showing her teeth at other dogs then she's stressed about how close they are and the fact that she's been bitten several times because of doing it isn't going to help her anxiety about other dogs. 

Rupert doesn't have the most stable of temperaments, he's extremely anxious, fearful and reactive, and has had a lot of bad experiences with dogs so we've not gotten very far with desensitizing him but simply keeping him at a distance and practicing avoidance has helped massively on the rare occasion we've had no choice about getting a bit too close to another dog.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I have used both the nylon and the basket muzzles!
We HAVE to muzzle on of ours at the vets,! he can still give a nasty nip with the nylon one whereas with the basket one he can't


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

Superash said:


> ​. I'm sorry i posted this now, i think you are all going over the top. None of you know my dog and i do she isnt people aggressive i have really young kids next door who she plays with and they adore her she is great with dogs she knows ie jack russell staffie inuit and as for dda according to smokeybear she dont know nowt it is just the one dog who she hates forget it i only asked for advice about a muzzle which i got some helpful replies off some people thank you to them. But you always get the high and mighty knowalls on here well in future i will just look at the good pics and comments


With all due respect, I think people are concerned that the dogs behaviour could land you and her in trouble. Fear aggression is very difficult to treat and a muzzle wont fix that. Most of the replies (IMO) were trying to help with underlying cause for the aggression so you could move to a place where the muzzle wont be needed. A muzzle may escalate the issue as your dog will still be scared but also feel vulnerable if you dont deal with the bigger issue. 
You are very correct in saying that we dont know your dog but we were only going off the information you have given us. 
Please dont call the members that have taken the time to reply "Know it alls". The only reason they posted a reply is because they care about you and your dog.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Catz1 said:


> With all due respect, I think people are concerned that the dogs behaviour could land you and her in trouble. Fear aggression is very difficult to treat and a muzzle wont fix that. Most of the replies (IMO) were trying to help with underlying cause for the aggression so you could move to a place where the muzzle wont be needed. A muzzle may escalate the issue as your dog will still be scared but also feel vulnerable if you dont deal with the bigger issue.
> You are very correct in saying that we dont know your dog but we were only going off the information you have given us.
> Please dont call the members that have taken the time to reply "Know it alls". The only reason they posted a reply is because they care about you and your dog.


good point!
And another thing to remember, if you do muzzle your dog, and there is a incident, and that could be something silly like the dog jumping up someone you COULD have problems with you insurer OP! It may be an idea as catz1 says to try and et to the root of the problem and cure it!

Re the example I have given, know personally of a lady who used to muzzle her dog because it was a scavenger!! it ate a condom on the park once! the Dog jumped up a child once - NOT nasty - was playing, and the woman went to the police! There's a long story goes with this, and sharn;t bore you!


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

. Thanks for your response but we aint talkin about cujo here like i said i'll stick to looking at piccies and make the odd comment this is supose to be a PET friendly forum for a lot of unianitated people, i have owned dogs for the past 25 years so i am not stupid so if you lot have to rely on dog trainers/behaviourists then that shows you cant do it yourselves you obviously have nothing better to do than critisise other people i am happy with my dogvi know and everyone who knows her knows she has a wonderful temperment and is a great dog! How dare smokeybear even say she has a "poor temperament" when she doesnt even know her ! Like i said knowalls who know nothing


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Well us knowalls who know nothing do not have dogs that get bitten by others, bare their teeth at all other dogs they do not know or attack other dogs whilst on a lead.

You are the one with the problem but as YOU know it all, you do not need to come onto a forum for advice do you?

Shame that in the 25 years you have owned dogs you appear to have learned nothing, shame that is for your dog and those which belong to others.

NO genetically sound, sufficiently socialised and habituated dog of ANY breed, ends up with a life long issue with strange dogs because it was bitten by two chihuahuas at 5 months of age.

If you wish to keep on making excuses for your dog's behaviour, that is your prerogative, it does not, however, make the behaviour any more appropriate or excusable.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As for dog owners not being able to modify behaviours by themselves, and require help; you yourself have demonstrated that this ability is beyond your grasp as well.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Superash said:


> . Thanks for your response but we aint talkin about cujo here like i said i'll stick to looking at piccies and make the odd comment this is supose to be a PET friendly forum for a lot of unianitated people, i have owned dogs for the past 25 years so i am not stupid so if you lot have to rely on dog trainers/behaviourists then that shows you cant do it yourselves you obviously have nothing better to do than critisise other people i am happy with my dogvi know and everyone who knows her knows she has a wonderful temperment and is a great dog! How dare smokeybear even say she has a "poor temperament" when she doesnt even know her ! Like i said knowalls who know nothing


From what I have read, you should get a behaviourist in to help, or at least to show you some common ways of desensitising and counterconditioning. Not for your sake, but for your dogs! That's the most important thing here.

I would recommend, as others, a baskerville style muzzle. You can do all sorts of rewards based training using food still too.

Because your dog hasn't bitten yet, I would not classify this as fear aggression straight off. Some simple work to help your reactive dog, who becomes uneasy with approaching dogs, could do wonders. Check out clicker training.

Just because you've owned dogs for 25 years doesn't mean you know everything. I'm sorry, but that argument is completely flawed. We're here to help you, and have helped you. But if you're not willing to take this advice for what it is and, better yet, insult us because of it, then you might as well not post again. :mad5:


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

yep i'll stick to cute puppies and kittens:biggrin:


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