# Completely dejected



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

The pooing isn't stopping and I am getting more and more fed up every day. Over the last few months I have tried everything that has been suggested on here and from the behaviourist. 

I thought the kangaroo might do the trick but after nearly a week of nothing but kangaroo we have had 2 poos in the tray, the rest outside of it. 

The poo he did this morning was between 10am and 10.30am. Overnight the girls were shut downstairs with their food and he was upstairs with his with 2 clean trays, one open, one covered. I went down around 10am to let the girls out but shut the kitchen door so he couldn't get to their food. Around 10.30 I saw him in the tray Elsa had just used and then he went to the side like he was going to poo. I picked him up, took him into the office and placed him in the tray but he did a wee. I praised him anyway and thought I need to keep an eye on him but as I walked out I could smell poo and there was a big pile next to the covered tray.

Yesterday it was in the corner of the spare room, the day before it was next to the open tray on the top landing. If I stop access to one of his pooing spots he will just find somewhere else to go. 

I am sure his poo is still abnormally big, will add some photos when I have taken one. 

I may take him to the vets before we finish the kangaroo and plead with them to take some tests and hope the insurance pays out if it ends up being expensive. 

We are now quickly heading to the stage where there will all being well be a baby in the house. I will be sleep deprived and therefore lack patience which he will pick up on and make it worse. He is never shouted at or scolded for the pooing, I tried being all sad with him like Carly suggested and praising him for being in the tray but nothing works.

I know it's only been a week or so on kangaroo but by now there should be no other foods in his system which are causing him an issue. I am thinking now it is something medical not a food intolerance or a learned behaviour as he has gone from pooing on the floor once a week to everyday. 

I play with him, he gets lots of attention, I am going to start taking him for walks to stimulate his senses. He is such a lovely cat but the pooing is driving me mad. I know it could be worse but I don't want cat poo on the floor. 

Do I give him a 3rd or 4th tray overnight that is just for his use only? I am completely clutching at straws here as everything else I have tried just isn't working. 

I can't afford to chuck the kangaroo and replace it with another protein on the off chance it is the kangaroo. Once we have finished it then I can perhaps order a different lot and see how that goes.

Any advice would be great but I think this is more of a rant!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Attached pic of poo. It seems to be normal in terms of shape but there does seem to be a lot of it. He weighs around 4kg and eats between 200g and 400g of the kangaroo a day depending if he is having a hungry day or not.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh Oggers. I really do not have any advise to give but feel for you. Must be incredibly frustrating. Have you spoken to the breeder?

My thoughts are that quantities of poo can be different for each and everyone. And are you sure it is medical and not behavioural? 

Poo on the floor and babies are definitely not a good combination.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> Oh Oggers. I really do not have any advise to give but feel for you. Must be incredibly frustrating. Have you spoken to the breeder?
> 
> My thoughts are that quantities of poo can be different for each and everyone. And are you sure it is medical and not behavioural?
> 
> Poo on the floor and babies are definitely not a good combination.


His breeder is aware, in fact she visited the other day and got to see him in his home environment and she said he seemed very happy and not stressed. The behaviourist said the same thing also.

In terms of medical vs behavioural I haven't got a clue anymore. The only reason I am leaning towards medical is that every single thing to stop the problem if it is behavioural just isn't working.

I just don't know what to do, I can't keep buying things like extra trays, new litter, new food every month, it is costing me a fortune. If I knew buying xyz would be a sure fix the cost wouldn't be an issue but I don't want to keep buying stuff "just incase it works" as then it is a slippery slope where I buy something else and something else "in case it works"

I never get cross with him but he can probably sense my general air of frustration even if it isn't directed at him.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

oggers86 said:


> His breeder is aware, in fact she visited the other day and got to see him in his home environment and she said he seemed very happy and not stressed. The behaviourist said the same thing also.
> 
> In terms of medical vs behavioural I haven't got a clue anymore. The only reason I am leaning towards medical is that every single thing to stop the problem if it is behavioural just isn't working.
> 
> ...


Difficult one. But f it was medical. I don't see why he would poo on the floor and not n a tray? Don't make sense to me?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> Difficult one. But f it was medical. I don't see why he would poo on the floor and not n a tray? Don't make sense to me?


Association of discomfort in the tray usually or maybe he feels a sudden urge to go although the litter tray is usually cms away so I don't think that is it.

I have read that if they poo next to the tray it is the litter or the tray they don't like. I don't think it is the litter as when given a choice he uses clay 99% of the time. I don't think ut is the trays as we have a choice, likewise location. I tried moving the trays around to see if there was one tray in one location he liked but that hasn't worked either.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm really sorry  I know you've tried everything you can think of for him, I'm not surprised you're feeling dejected. 

You did try puppy training pads in his tray instead of litter didn't you?

And he's been locked in a big cage with his litter tray to try and re-train him? I think I remember seeing Carly? suggesting that.

The only other thing I can think of is for him to try living somewhere else for a couple of weeks and see if the same thing happens. If he was okay then at least you know its probably behavioural. Would his breeder agree to try it? Just a thought, I know its extreme but it would give you a break and a chance to re-group.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

I'm not going to be able to offer any help but I know how you feel. Going through similar myself at the minute (weeing and over grooming rather than pooing) and I'm at my wits end. I'll be working away a lot shortly and I can't allow it to continue as we just won't be able to cope but I don't know what to do to fix it.

I agree that it does look like about twice as much poo as mine do in one go so perhaps that is linked to the problem. I'd be tempted to try feeding him on just lightly boiled chicken for a week, perhaps with a bit of pumpkin but nothing else. See if that reduces the size of his poos - I know when I do that with mine then they start producing much less.

I don't believe that it is number of trays or types of litter - you have done all of that already.

I don't know what else to suggest - it sounds like you have to go down the medical route as you seem to have have covered all the psychological/behavioural/environmental bases. Or perhaps, there is simply just no reason as to why he does it, he just feels like it (well that's how it feels to me sometimes).

ETA - I agree with Jannor on the trying to get him to live elsewhere for a few weeks to see if that breaks the habit. I've thought of it myself but not gone down that route because a) I wouldn't want to inflict it on somebody else and b) I think it would just really stress her.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

How many times a week/day/how often does he 'go'?


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## Isisini (Jun 3, 2014)

Has he shown an interest in going outside? 

Wondering if it could be protest poo (sounds mad but I think cats are quite good at doing things we don't want to in order to get our attention about something they want. One of ours campaigned to be let out the front door for months ( we live in a terrace and he wasn't allowed out that way as there was no cat flap and we didn't see why he shouldn't just stick to the back - turns out he didn't want to compete with all the other cats in the road whose owners had the same idea).

We eventually decided to let him go. All behavioural problems stopped once he had 'conquered' the front garden.

Similarly my parents' cat used to dislike it when they went away. He used to poo on their bed while they were gone. Every time. Except once, where he left entirely and went to live in the park for a week. The people who came round to feed him were mortified that they had 'lost' the cat.

So I do wonder if it might be territorial, even the signs seem extremely subtle. If there is an element of middening to it, then letting him outside might solve the problem, or making some changes to his environment so he has clear owned territory. I know you mentioned that he was covering up so unlikely to be middening - our cat, when he used to spray, would then scratch the wall as if trying to cover up the smell. Always thought this pointed even more to the psychological confusion that must occur when a cat sprays in their safe space.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Jannor said:


> I'm really sorry  I know you've tried everything you can think of for him, I'm not surprised you're feeling dejected.
> 
> You did try puppy training pads in his tray instead of litter didn't you?
> 
> ...


I did consider that myself to see if it was an issue with us/the house/the cats. I suppose whilst I want to fix the problem I dont want it to come back that it is something we are doing and can not change in which case for his own good he needs to be rehomed 



rox666 said:


> I'm not going to be able to offer any help but I know how you feel. Going through similar myself at the minute (weeing and over grooming rather than pooing) and I'm at my wits end. I'll be working away a lot shortly and I can't allow it to continue as we just won't be able to cope but I don't know what to do to fix it.
> 
> I agree that it does look like about twice as much poo as mine do in one go so perhaps that is linked to the problem. I'd be tempted to try feeding him on just lightly boiled chicken for a week, perhaps with a bit of pumpkin but nothing else. See if that reduces the size of his poos - I know when I do that with mine then they start producing much less.
> 
> ...


I have debated sending him to his breeders for a couple of weeks to see if it is cat company he is missing. I could try send him t my mums for 2 weeks to see if it is being an only cat but with either of these options it means them having to deal with the poo if he still does it. It isnt really fair to expect them to clear it up every day or have it potentially stain their carpets, especially as my mum is now petless so enjoying not having to deal with the pet stuff



gskinner123 said:


> How many times a week/day/how often does he 'go'?


Usually once a day most days, seems to be in the morning lately. 



Isisini said:


> Has he shown an interest in going outside?
> 
> Wondering if it could be protest poo (sounds mad but I think cats are quite good at doing things we don't want to in order to get our attention about something they want. One of ours campaigned to be let out the front door for months ( we live in a terrace and he wasn't allowed out that way as there was no cat flap and we didn't see why he shouldn't just stick to the back - turns out he didn't want to compete with all the other cats in the road whose owners had the same idea).
> 
> ...


In terms of the outside if we left the door open then yes he would want to venture outside. He is very good at making a beeline for the door when we come in so he can have a wander outside which is why I want to start taking him for a walk in the small park next to the house and cat proof the garden (or at the very least add a small enclosure onto the house). Other than that he doesnt show any interest like the others do when they can not go outside like meowing or scratching at doors or windows, trying to follow the other cats through the cat flap etc. Letting him roam really is the last resort, I wanted an indoor cat for a reason, breed regardless and have tried to give him things that indoor cats need like tall cat trees, cat grass, play time and I have just started playing videos of stuff like mice and squirrels for him to watch.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

In an otherwise healthy cat, I don't see it as being that big a deal to go without vitamins for a few days, maybe even a week. You could always add Felini to it after a few days.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

rox666 said:


> In an otherwise healthy cat, I don't see it as being that big a deal to go without vitamins for a few days, maybe even a week. You could always add Felini to it after a few days.


I had a quick calculation and as you are not supposed to feed it for more than 20% of their diet that gives me 1.4 which I suppose I can round up to 2. Would felini not just potentially outweigh the benefits of feeding nothing but chicken for 2 days?


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> I had a quick calculation and as you are not supposed to feed it for more than 20% of their diet that gives me 1.4 which I suppose I can round up to 2. Would felini not just potentially outweigh the benefits of feeding nothing but chicken for 2 days?


Not in my experience. I've only used the boiled chicken thing when one has had diarrhoea problems. In that case I fed boiled chicken and butternut squash for 2 or 3 days without anything, and from then on supplemented with Felini. The poos were still tiny and once every couple of days. With the Felini you are only adding the essentials and not any bulking ingredients. I think the 20% thing is related to long term feeding and as this is just a short term experiment then I don't see what harm it can do.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

If he poos in the morning. Then my suggestion would be to watch him like a hawk...then when he looks like he is going to go...put him in the litter tray...and give lots of praise. May be he has forgotten and needs to go back to basics


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> If he poos in the morning. Then my suggestion would be to watch him like a hawk...then when he looks like he is going to go...put him in the litter tray...and give lots of praise. May be he has forgotten and needs to go back to basics


I think when I am around to watch him I will keep him in my sights at all times. When I am not around to supervise then he will go in or the crate with the litter tray until I can let him out. For longer periods i will keep him in one room with a couple of trays as I don't think it would be fair on him to keep him in the crate when we are both out at work all day.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Then don't bother with crate training as it will be a waste of time. For it to work, he needs to be in the crate with the tray 24-7, only being allowed out to sit on your lap initially, then progressing to 1 room while you watch him all the time. He can never be unsupervised, and must go right back to square 1 if he messes outside a tray, so it can be a long process. I've used it for wee, but don't see why it wouldn't work for poo once any medical issues have been ruled out. Are the poos still hard?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Then don't bother with crate training as it will be a waste of time. For it to work, he needs to be in the crate with the tray 24-7, only being allowed out to sit on your lap initially, then progressing to 1 room while you watch him all the time. He can never be unsupervised, and must go right back to square 1 if he messes outside a tray, so it can be a long process. I've used it for wee, but don't see why it wouldn't work for poo once any medical issues have been ruled out. Are the poos still hard?


Is it not cruel to keep him in it overnight and then again for 9 hours whilst we are at work? I don't do a huge amount of morning shifts but there is always the liklihood I might end up doing a run of them.

Poos are still firm the one this morning left a bit of a mark on the carpet but when I picked them up they didn't fall apart or feel squishy. They didn't feel rock solid either, didnt look dry and were a good size, it was the quantity that made me wonder.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you put him in the crate it will at least restrict the defecating to within the crate area, though he may still poo next to the tray. If he poos next to the tray whilst in the crate, then crating him is not going to change anything.

Keeping him in the crate all the time during this training period would be essential as Carly has said. But I agree it wouldn't be much fun for him to be cooped up for 9 hrs on his own whilst you were out at work.

Sending him to stay with your mum or the breeder for 2 weeks would give you a break. I am not sure it would have much effect on Elsworth's toiletting bearing in mind he would feel quite stressed being in a new place, and his soiling may be worse, or it may be better. But it may have no bearing on his behaviour once he returned to your home.

Perhaps if he were to stay in a new place for 6 months, so he could really settle in, then it may have a positive effect. But it would be unfair to uproot him after 6 mths and bring him home.

He does still seem to be passing a lot of poo in each evacuation but if he is eating as much as 400 grams a day, (a lot for an adult cat) then that could explain the big poos.

If it is behavioural, it might be nothing to do with the trays themselves, but instead perhaps a territorial behaviour caused by living with other cats. Some cats do sometimes poo to mark their territory instead of (or as well as) urinate.

I do understand you got Elsworth because you wanted a breed you could keep indoors and that you don't want another outdoor cat. Unfortunately cats come with their own agenda, which may not coincide with ours. It is sometimes necessary to review the original plan and adapt it in order to accommodate the cat's needs. A question really of compromising between what you want and what the cat wants.

As I have commented before, if Elsworth could go outside you may find the house soiling problem would be solved, simply because he would stop associating the house with his toilet. Then you would not have the worry of poo on the floor with a toddler in the house.

Having the garden fenced is probably the best idea, as long as it is genuinely escape-proof. I had my garden cat proofed some years ago (at great expense) for my 2 BSH cats (R.I.P.) but the neutered male managed to get over by climbing upside down like a monkey along the sloping top part of the fence, and dragging himself over the top. (It had to be seen to be believed!) Then one time he fell and injured himself trying to get back in.  So I took the sloping fencing down.

So if Elsworth is known to be a really good climber you need a fool-proof system of fencing.

Personally I would start with an outdoor enclosure attached to the house. It would be a lot cheaper than fencing your whole garden. Something like this:

Katy Outdoor Cat Run

If you make if from wood and chicken wire it will cost a couple of hundred ££s in materials.

Some people use aviary panels, which is a quicker/easier method if one is not great at DIY, but may not be a saving moneywise.

Aviary Panels for Rabbit Runs - The Rabbit House

As you say, all the money you've spent on different foods, new litter trays, different types of litter etc hasn't made much difference. I think a radical change such as an outdoor enclosure would be a better use of resources at this stage. If it were me I would want to try that, before considering rehoming him.

NOTE: if you do make an outdoor enclosure for him I would fit another microchip cat flap from the house and just scan Elsworth's chip in to the new flap so the pen is his space all for himself.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

WRT fencing the garden: If you put brackets at the top of the walls that support rollers rather than fencing mesh I doubt any cat would be able to climb over them.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok so I buy an 6ftx9ftx6ft enclosure for £200 which is probably less than the cost of doing the whole garden. It does mean convincing hubs as he hates the idea of an enclosure but if I can get around it by suggesting it is a temporary measure then he might not be so against it. 

If it doesn't fix the problem then I am no further ahead, then what do I do? Cat proof the garden or let him out properly?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

A couple more things: Recently over 2 days I found 2 small bits of poo nowhere near the main bit which had obviously dropped off when he left the area. Does this mean anything?

Also what if I put him in the crate over a couple of days just to see if he uses the tray or poos next to it. I can time ot so I am off or on lates so he wouldn't be in it too long. Will that tell me anything about his habits as at the minute he is pooing on the floor daily.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

> oggers86 said:
> 
> 
> > A couple more things: Recently over 2 days I found 2 small bits of poo nowhere near the main bit which had obviously dropped off when he left the area. Does this mean anything?
> ...


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry to hear things aren't any better  I knew it had to be getting to you more than you've let on previously as when things go on and on and there doesn't appear to be any logic / reason / nothing works - of course it gets to us all 


I have only 2 suggestions - both made before but may be worth trying to see if it does make any difference

1) the crate - it would certainly be interesting to see if he does still poo outside the tray in a very confined space. If so, then I honestly don't think the number of trays / location / type of litter is going to make a difference  

2) letting him out - I know that's not what you wanted but he must be aware the girls go out and maybe this is his way of showing he's not happy at not going out

Maybe some walking on a harness would be enough for him (my old next door neighbours used to walk their Siamese around the garden for 1/2 an hour each day and that was enough to keep her happy) - maybe he'll want to wander a bit more. Mia likes to go out (which is a complete nightmare for me in case she meets another cat) - but she doesn't stay out long and really just likes a wee dander around the garden to make sure it's all still there .... maybe Elsworth would be the same


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> > It might tell you only how he behaves in the crate. The behaviour might not necessarily transfer to his behaviour outside the crate unless you were to leave him in the crate 24/7 for a couple of weeks which might break his bad habits.
> >
> > I do have some time off in Feb and have no real plans to go anywhere so could be a useful time to test.
> >
> > ...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Nope. If the crate is going to tell you anything, then he needs to be in it full time. You'll know within a few days whether it will work or not. I'd say if he's still pooing outside the tray by the 3rd day then it's a lost cause. If you crate him in the living room, he'll still be able to see everything that's going on, so it'll be less boring for him, but stay in it he must. If it works, I recommend a solid week of no accidents before allowing access to a single room for supervised periods. If there's an accident, then I go back to the crate and wait for a further 2 clear days before trying again. This method has never failed me for naughty pee-ers.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

carly87 said:


> Nope. If the crate is going to tell you anything, then he needs to be in it full time. You'll know within a few days whether it will work or not. I'd say if he's still pooing outside the tray by the 3rd day then it's a lost cause. If you crate him in the living room, he'll still be able to see everything that's going on, so it'll be less boring for him, but stay in it he must. If it works, I recommend a solid week of no accidents before allowing access to a single room for supervised periods. If there's an accident, then I go back to the crate and wait for a further 2 clear days before trying again. This method has never failed me for naughty pee-ers.


Hope you have your ear plugs at the ready oggers 

Seriously, I'm so frustrated for you. Everything crossed this works
Big Hugs xx


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

I dont have anything especially useful to add to this thread, but you have my sympathy as it must be incredibly frustrating. Just thought id say if you do decide to DIY a run try freecycle, we got enough chicken wire from a couple of people on there to completely do our small run, OHs dad also had some spare wood so our run cost us a grand total of about £20, so its worth seeing what you can get.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Im in contact with someone on Ebay r.e. enclosure and looking at one 12ft long, 6ft wide and 7.5ft high. Just need to check it clears both the back door and patio then I can go for it. 

I will put an outdoor litter tray in there for him too and try and cheaply catify it


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oggers sorry as I can't remember this - did he do this at your old house as well or has it only been since you've moved?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Oggers sorry as I can't remember this - did he do this at your old house as well or has it only been since you've moved?


He did it at the old house too. First on the spare bed then it progressed to the litter mat, in his play cube and finally behind the TV downstairs. He was always kept apart from the others at night and when we were out until we moved house. From then we didn't need to keep them apart as the girls were indoors then we got a new cat flap.

He was ok the first night in the new house but on the 2nd night he pooed on the sofa downstairs. It then progress d's to the spare bed, bath mats, on the old carpet once or twice but since having the softer new carpet he always chooses carpet apart from once on the laminate.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

Sorry to hear that this is still happening Oggers 

I would first crate him for a few days. I really don't think that crating him for 2-3 days is going to be the end of the world, especially if it can rectify his behaviour for the rest of his life. It's likely that he already has a routine of sleeping for those 9 hours you are at work anyway. 

I really don't think he is protesting about not going outside. Has he ever been out in the garden? If not, I don't see how he would know what he is missing?

I really hope you get to the bottom of it (no pun intended!).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

This is clearly making you very, very miserable and I'm not surprised. It's quite possible Elsworth is miserable in some way as well.

I feel the best thing you can do is consult a behaviourist, one specialising in cats. You have had a lot of behavioural advice but none of us have seen your house, seen the cats interacting and so on, and none of us have had anything like the experience of poo problems a behaviourist will have. If you go this route do make sure to get a properly qualified one. You will need a referral from your vet, they might charge. The one that referred me for Minnie didn't as they were able to print out her health details from their computer, but the one I use for EN does as they still use a card system so have to put it all into a letter which takes time.

The RSPCA website has a page about behaviourists with links to the websites for the two main associations: Find a clinical animal behaviourist - Animal behaviour experts

It almost certainly won't be an instant fix as unfortunately quite often the longer behaviour has been going on the longer it takes to change. What normally happens is the vet refers you, they contact you to get more details, they pay a visit and provide a report with a plan of action, then you keep in touch by phone & email. Compared to your current misery I feel it would be well worth the cost.

If Elsworth is insured you can claim it back (maybe except for the excess) and if there is a referral charge I believe that can be included in the claim.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

alixtaylor said:


> Sorry to hear that this is still happening Oggers
> 
> I would first crate him for a few days. I really don't think that crating him for 2-3 days is going to be the end of the world, especially if it can rectify his behaviour for the rest of his life. It's likely that he already has a routine of sleeping for those 9 hours you are at work anyway.
> 
> ...


He goes out on his harness sporadically but he doesn't seem to crave the outdoors like the other cats do. He enjoys looking out of the window but he doesn't try and scratch at it to gey out.​


OrientalSlave said:


> This is clearly making you very, very miserable and I'm not surprised. It's quite possible Elsworth is miserable in some way as well.
> 
> I feel the best thing you can do is consult a behaviourist, one specialising in cats. You have had a lot of behavioural advice but none of us have seen your house, seen the cats interacting and so on, and none of us have had anything like the experience of poo problems a behaviourist will have. If you go this route do make sure to get a properly qualified one. You will need a referral from your vet, they might charge. The one that referred me for Minnie didn't as they were able to print out her health details from their computer, but the one I use for EN does as they still use a card system so have to put it all into a letter which takes time.
> 
> ...


I did have a behaviourist come in and all that was suggested for his pooing was extra litter trays and minimise stress. At the time Elise was very stressed so she said he might be picking up on that. Since November she is back to her normal self now that she has found her feet and accepted this is her home.

I have wondered if I should get another behaviourist in, the vets didn't seem to have a clue about getting a behaviourist last time but they gave me the name of the one they use who specialises in cats.

What is Vicky Halls like as a behaviourist? I have seen her name come up a lot.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

This is a rough drawing of the type of enclosure I am asking for. It will measure 15ft long by 6ft wide but there will be an added 3ft by 6ft safety porch to the side of it to allow easy access in and out. 

The downside is to add in the porch it creeps up the price, still cheaper than cat proofing the whole thing though and the porch means that if I want someone to come in and feed the cats for a weekend I wont have to worry about Elsworth escaping


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vicky Halls is very well known, you could read some of her books to see what she seems to be like. 

Did you ever go back to the original behaviourist to say the problem was still on-going?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Vicky Halls is very well known, you could read some of her books to see what she seems to be like.
> 
> Did you ever go back to the original behaviourist to say the problem was still on-going?


Yep but she wasn't really much help.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

alixtaylor said:


> > I really don't think he is protesting about not going outside. Has he ever been out in the garden? If not, I don't see how he would know what he is missing?
> 
> 
> To me the idea of him being able to go outside would because there is a fair chance he would then start toiletting outside, and the soiling indoors would stop.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Vicky Halls is a brilliant pet behaviourist but she is expensive. As I recall between £300 and £400 per home visit, though much cheaper if you consult her by email.

These people are excellent, and a good bit cheaper than Vicky Halls, if you can find one located near you:-

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> alixtaylor said:
> 
> 
> > To me the idea of him being able to go outside would because there is a fair chance he would then start toiletting outside, and the soiling indoors would stop.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

You could provide a couple of weatherproof outdoor covered litter boxes like these, and fill them with ordinary cat litter.

Great deals on cat toilets and litter at zooplus: Marchioro Freecat Maxi Litter Box

You'd need to remember to scoop them just as often indoor trays.


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## alixtaylor (Jan 24, 2013)

oggers86 said:


> I have wondered if I should get another behaviourist in, the vets didn't seem to have a clue about getting a behaviourist last time but they gave me the name of the one they use who specialises in cats.
> 
> What is Vicky Halls like as a behaviourist? I have seen her name come up a lot.


Maybe this list is useful?: Full Members of the APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## Isisini (Jun 3, 2014)

Vicky Halls helped us with our cats - she was great, really thorough, lots of following up and in fact correctly identified a problem I hadn't even thought of (in this case, that the source of my cat's stress was not our new kitten, but the cat heavy environment outside). I also felt she was quite realistic, she didn't sugar coat things. Her advice was practical. 

One helpful thing she was get us to fill out a floor plan of the whole house (I used floorplanner.com) and mark on it where all the cat 'resources' in the house were (e.g. beds, bowls, cat trees, water, etc. etc.) and also mark where the problems were happening and when. This helped us to identify a pattern.

She does do telephone consultations which are less expensive.

ETA: Her books are great too. She makes a very good point that in her experience behavioural wee/poo problems are almost always a 'cat thing' i.e. a relationship/territory issue between cats.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I am going to hold off on the behaviourist for a while unless I can get the insurance to pay for it. The cat run is definitely going ahead, it is just a matter of hubs checking my measurements and plans before sending them on. Should get it ordered on Monday and then delivered asap once it's made.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Cat run has been officially measured and details sent off, just waiting for the invoice. Need to order some artificial grass and an outdoor litter tray then I am good to go. For the moment he will have just one cat tree in there until I decide what else to do with it. It's not very big, only 6ftx9ft but as it's 7.5ft high it has plenty of vertical space. I would like to put a tall bird feeder in the main garden but am a bit unsure with my girls and next doors cats all having access to it. The birds may be put off and not use it which will be a waste..

I am off for a week in February so if we are not progressing with the poo then I will put him in the crate and see how we get on.


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