# Desparate for help with Lori getting territorial



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Apologies in advance, this is going to be very long, but I just don't know what to try any more to get Lorelei and Charlie-girl to be friends, or at least content.

I've had Lori for nine months since she was 12 weeks old; she's just turned one. She lived in my bedroom for a while and then I let her and Charlie mix when I was at home before letting them mix full time. We seemed to be going OK, although Lori wanted to play all the time and Charlie is not the playful type and would hiss at her a lot. It's made more difficult by the fact my house is has an open plan ground floor with a U shaped kitchen and open side stairs, so lots of corners to hide around and pounce out of that I simply can't do anything about.

So I started Charlie on Zylkene, increasing the dose accordingly, which she's still on. I got Lori loads of toys, invested in a Tigga Tower, tried to play with her lots - although thats not always useful as sometimes the more she plays, the more she wants to play and she starts harassing Charlie again. But although things weren't 100% harmonious, we seemed to be at least stable and slowly getting places, if not quite so well as when they first met.

We've had our ups and downs along the way, mainly with Lori getting even more boisterous and Charlie getting more teed off. But generally things have settled back down given a few days for things to pass.

Except for the last few weeks, when things have gone sharply downhill - and just kept on going.  I've been letting Charlie out again several nights a week and at weekends for a while now, but she started to not want to come back in if Lori was near. Then she'd come back in only if I held Lori, and after that only if I shut Lori away. She stopped purring at all and would growl and moan if I even tried to stroke her, let alone pick her up. Nights on her own in the bedroom with me didn't restore her happiness like they used to, she refused any attempt to interact with her. I tried an evening of separating the pair of them every time they interacted negatively - I didn't sit down all night, and it had no effect whatsoever. I tried giving Charlie 24 hours in my room on her own, she still wasn't speaking to me except to swear at me, and carrying her up there she was snarling at me so viciously I was afraid she was going to attack - this is the girl I can do anything with, and who has only ever shown her teeth to me once in all the time I have had her, which was when the vet was shaving her tail and bursting infected abcesses after that tom cat bit her last year. I honestly didn't know what to do with her any more to get her to accept Lori...

...and then I commented to Carly in a (rather emotional) phone call that Lori had just charged the closed glass back door (Lori hasn't been allowed out to roam yet) and smacked at it hard when she saw Charlie appear on the other side, and Carly promptly enlightened me that such behaviour meat Lori was trying to take over the house as her territory. I hadn't realised, I just thought she was playing again 

So I decided to try confining Lori to my room and - what do you know - within 24 hours I had my cuddly, purry, lap loving, face rubbing Charlie-girl back again! She's something special, she really is 

So now I have the correct perspective on what is going on, but still a comprehensive set of problems. I obviously can't keep Lori in my bedroom forever, it's way too small for any cat, let alone the bundle of energy that is Lori. On the other hand, I can't have her keep trying to take the whole house as her turf and chase Charlie out of it - Charlie was here first. I've tried Pet Remedy, but have stopped using it as the spray seems to make Lori hyper, and the diffuser was plugged in under the Tigga Tower just BEFORE all the latest territorial behaviour kicked off, so it's obviously not helping any and probably making things worse!

And yet at the same time, they will share litter trays, eat side by side with their bowls touching (circling round each other if they are hungry enough!), sleep on the same Tigga Tower (different beds), even on the top of the sofa or my bed/bedroom windowsill (opposite ends).

The only big thing I haven't yet done is get Lori insured and let her outside to explore on her own. I've been preparing her for it by taking her for walks in a Pet-A-Roo and letting her explore the cul-de-sac (I live right at the end of one) and the garden on a harness (plus I've also started doing things like taking her to Church socials to get her interacting with lots of humans), but next door are currently building an extension so I'd not wanted to let her out totally whilst there are cement mixers and piles of building stuff and scaffolding around. But I'm starting to think I have no choice but to do it, as if I can't get these territorial issues resolved I'm going to have to think about re-homing Lori.  And I already feel like I'm failing them both...

Help!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Jesthar, I sympathise with you hun, having been there myself when trying to integrate my rescued stray male with my other 2 boys

The fact Lori and Charlie are able to spend some time together amicably is a good sign. If every contact they had was 100% negative the prognosis for them getting along would be much more gloomy.

I think basically the aim now should be for the 2 cats to be able to tolerate each other when they meet in passing, but mostly to live independent lives within their home. It may be the case they will never be friends, but at least if they can get to the stage of ignoring each other and getting on with their own lives it will be a big step forward. 

I agree Lori should not be shut in one room all the time, she has developed beyond the stage where she would tolerate that without getting frustrated and miserable. 

But at the same time Charlie has to have ownership of at least some parts of the house, in order for her to feel secure. 

I understand it's difficult to divide the house up when the GF is open plan, but if you have stairs then a temporary door, either at the top or the bottom of the stairs can work well. I have installed one in my house, made of mesh in a wood frame. (my OH made it). It didn't cost a lot. It goes from floor to ceiling and is fitted on hinges onto strips of wood attached to the walls either side.

By using this method the cats are able to see and smell each other through the mesh, but each has their own territory within the house, and there is no chance of fighting or chasing. 

I would not leave the cats separated all the time, but for parts of the day, certainly when you are out. Also perhaps every afternoon and certainly always over night. As Charlie goes outdoors she would be best to have the GF so she has access to the cat flap for the present, whilst Lori is upstairs. 

If Charlie has been used to sleeping on your bed at night, then continue with this arrangement and settle Lori downstairs for the night. You will have the closed bedroom door and the temporary door on the stairs closed in case Lori objects to being downstairs on her own.

In spite of the fact you have observed the 2 of them eat together without fighting, I would not feed them together. I believe cats (once past kittenhood) are generally happier with their own space when they eat. I'd start by feeding them separately in their own part of the house, and then after a while feed them in the same room, but at different heights, e.g Charlie on a shelf or table and Lori on the floor. preferably at opposite sides of the room. Supervise meals and don't allow them to push in on each other's food. 

Basically what you will be doing overall is creating space between the 2 cats, so Charlie can feel she is less encroached upon by Lori, and Lori can have fewer opportunities to upset Charlie. 

If Lori has less contact with Charlie she is less likely to continue seeing her as a potential rival. And as Lori will have her own part of the house she will see less need to bully Charlie into moving out (which may be a bit of what is happening at present) 

I would not let Lori and Charlie outdoors at the same time until you are sure they can tolerate each other. The last thing you want is for Lori to chase Charlie away and maybe even stop her coming in through the cat flap (has been known I'm afraid, in some cases). 

Once they become more tolerant of each other, with the passage of time and 
also Lori reaching adulthood, hopefully they will be fine outdoors together, will just keep out of each other's way and share the cat flap amicably. 

If there are arguments over 'ownership' of the cat flap, then it is a fairly simple matter to install another flap, e.g. in an outer wall, away from the original one in the door. 

I had to do this once, when one of my cats kept hiding and pouncing on the other cat when she came in through the cat flap. It worked a treat having 2 cat flaps - the cats each took ownership of one cat flap and from then on only used their own.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Thanks for replying CM.

They're already being fed separately again, Lori in the bedroom, Charlie downstairs. I work full time, so I'm only in in the evenings.

The cat flap won't be a problem - I don't have one! Don't have _room_ for one - literally the only bits of spare wall I have is the adjoining wall with the neighbours! The back door is full length double glazed glass and cost a small fortune, so I'm not risking one in that! And I wouldn't have one anyway, I prefer to choose when my cats go out and know that no bully cat can force it's way in. So Charlie comes and goes via the back door.

Unfortunately a mesh door probably won't be possible without major alterations, as the side of my stairs is totally open all the way up, as you can just about see in this pic of Lori using me as a climbing frame:










And at the top the landing doubles back on itself to over a foot further back from the top of the stairs:










If you look carefully you can see there is a floor gap in between the staircase and the bannister, too. So I'd have to have some pretty major wall work done to get an extra door in anywhere.

Incidentally, the black fabric you see half hanging over my bedroom door is from when I made my own FlatCat to cover the door so Lori and Charlie could see each other safely. Unfortunately it didn't work for long as Lori first of all managed to keep scratching the bottom velcro loose from the floor, then when I made that stronger she would literally sit and claw at it until she managed to open the velcro - she very nearly clawed a hole in the mesh, too... 

I just wish I knew what had brought on this sudden attitude change. Do cats have a teenage phase? 

Oddly, when we got back from the show late Saturday and I put Lori down briefly downstairs whilst I shut the front door, Charlie came over and sniffed at her, and Lori sniffed back, without any hissing or growling from either of them. And just now Charlie went to investigate when she hear Lori meowing in the bedroom. But I'm just so nevous about letting them either see each other at the moment, even though when Lori has slipped past me and made it downstairs a couple of times (she's like quicksilver! ) Charlie has just watched from the Tigga Tower,


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh dear  as someone with cats who now have to be separated 24/7 you have my utmost sympathy

Archie had been spending more & more time outside but as it was summer I had put it down to the nice weather (as he does tend to like to be out then anyway) and hadn't realised just how much he'd started to feel insecure in his own house - really until they were separated and he started to stay in again as he must've started to feel safer 

Your stairs look pretty similar to mine & I've not yet managed to come up with a solution to being able to split the house in 2 either 


I now operate a 1 in / 1 out system - not ideal by any shot BUT both seem happy, must feel secure (as there is no aggression from Mia & it was horrific before) - and oddly enough share the whole house (minus 'their' room) quite happily - even though they must smell each other 

I have to say that, this time of the year especially, it's a PITA as normally I'd just leave the back door open all day & both cats & the dog could go in / out as they pleased ....

Wishing you the best of luck moving forwards and keeping everything crossed they can at least get to a tolerate stage


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Great reply from CM but I'm going to take a different angle. I think Lori underlines my case for why kittens should be carefully introduced to the garden as soon as they are settled in the home and bonded with the humans. I realise it's now the accepted wisdom to keep them in for a year but I strongly disagree with it. 

By the age of 12 months a kitten would be fully independent from its mother. Estimates varyabout how long kittens stay with their mother in the wild, but it's between 5 months and a year. So at a year old your cat is no longer hard wired to learn from its mother, or you as surrogate mother. Between 3 and 6 months, a kitten is still young enough and impressionable enough to be taught basic safety outdoors and that all important recall, not for food but because it's been asked to come to you. 

At a year old the only thing it's still hard-wired to do is leave home and establish its own territory. Or stay in the colony if it's born into a feral group and establish its place in the colony. Either way, it's like a teenager trying to make its own way in the world, and that is a very bad time to be opening the door to a new world full of potential hazards it has never been taught to handle. 

Anyway - that's background - what about Lori? Her world is the house. The only place she has to establish a territory is in the house - with you so far Jesthar. But there is already a cat who owns this territory and isn't going to give it up part of it easily, hence the tension you have identified. But Charlie has access to outside, Lori doesn't, so not only does Lori have enormously more energy due to her youth, she has the frustration of seeing Charlie go out and come back in, smelling of things Lori is not allowed to experience, and having left the territory vacant for however long she's been out. That weakens Charlie's position, and only goes one way, since Lori cannot take her turn at going out. 

Lori must be so frustrated. In my opinion she should have been going out supervised a long time ago and should by now have been able to go out on her own. I think a combination of separating them so Charlie gets enough time to be her loving self, then urgently give Lori more time outdoors and more freedom, and hopefully this can be resolved as soon as possible. I hope they get on better when Lori can let off some energy outside and have her own territory.

Play won't help at this stage. There are different drives and you can't satisfy the urge to establish herself by distracting her with toys.#

eta just to add that yes I do think they have a teenage phase and it would be about now!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Good points FH - definitely food for thought there.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

chillminx said:


> Good points FH - definitely food for thought there.


And you too, fingers crossed something in all that will help!


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

best wishes in finding a solution jestharxx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Mmmm very interesting FH and makes perfect sense - ive never thought about it like that before  

It might also explain some of our problems too as Mia certainly viewed the house as hers & basically didn't want Archie in it at all! 

She rarely goes out (her choice at that point) so that could enforce this view


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

That was my advice too, FH, that Lori needs to urgently expand her territory, and that that in itself will probably ease the tension in the house in that it then becomes both their territories or part of it, and not Lori's which she solely patrols 24-7.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

carly87 said:


> That was my advice too, FH, that Lori needs to urgently expand her territory, and that that in itself will probably ease the tension in the house in that it then becomes both their territories or part of it, and not Lori's which she solely patrols 24-7.


I have to say that it's the scenario which makes the most sense.

Until recently, Lori hasn't really shown much interest in the outdoor world despite being introduced to the garden for a while now, even to the point where when my Mum came to stay a month or so ago, we had her out in the garden on the harness and the only things she was interested in was 1) eating grass and 2) getting back inside at the earliest opportunity. We even left the back door open for extended periods of time, and the most she did was sit inside it looking out, but retreating back into the house whenever anyone approached. Even when I started taking her for walks in the Pet-a-roo she was always eager to get back inside - until one day about 2-3 weeks ago when all of a sudden all she wanted to do was explore the neighbours drive and not go back in at all. Which is about the same time the trouble started, I suspect.

Anyway, I fitted her with an Ancol collar this morning, which she totally ignored, so I'm hoping it will still be on tonight. I need to order a name tag for it (or get a details cylinder - could do that tonight from Pet at Home), plus sort her insurance, and then we can begin.

Any suggestions for her first free forays? Or on how to manage alternating her and Charlie if the idea is to have them out at different times? Would taking the Flying Frenzy out there be a plan, maybe - she LOVES that toy. And I know she'll come running every time for a shaken tub of Whiskas Temptations...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds like a plan Jesthar:thumbup1: I'd take her out on the garden with the Flying Frenzy for starters. You may find she's more interested in exploring and sniffing everything than playing, but at least you have the Frenzy to hand to distract her if need be.

If it were me I would have the two of them out separately for the time being, until Lori is confident at being outside. I have to do this with 2 of mine as they fight when they meet each other. One boy sleeps all afternoon, so I use that time for the other boy to go out for a couple of hours. Then he has a couple of hours out in the evening.

As Carly & Foreverhome have said, it may well be the answer and Lori will become less aggressive towards Charlie once Lori has a larger territory for herself. If so, then it would be Ok for the cats to be outdoors at the same time, as hopefully they will both go off and do their own thing and not bother with each other.

Definitely practice calling Lori back. I started with 20 minute intervals, then increased to an hour, and by the end of the second week was allowing them to be gone for 2 hours. I have never left them longer than that, and still call all mine back if I haven't seen them for 2 hrs. Sometimes they just get given a reward and then I let them go out again. I find it helps to keep reinforcing the rules!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I have successfully taught kittens to keep away from roads, as mentioned before at 3-6 months, I'm doubtful it will work with Lori though because she is that much older and has already started to go where she wants. 

The idea behind it is for the first ventures out, you go with the kitten, every time it goes somewhere undesirable you call them away, quite forcefully. Every time they go in a good direction, encourage. Practice recall regularly and not for treats, just so they get used to it being positive as a social thing, but again all this is best at an age when they would still expect this kind of guidance from mum. Lori may be too old to accept that kind of guidance from you. It helps to have a map in your head of how far you are prepared to let them go towards danger - in my last case there was a busy main road at the end of our garden so my recall point was about 15ft before the road. Lori may already be too much of a belligerent teenager, but by all means try, it can't do any harm.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Until recently, Lori hasn't really shown much interest in the outdoor world despite being introduced to the garden for a while now, even to the point where when my Mum came to stay a month or so ago, we had her out in the garden on the harness and the only things she was interested in was 1) eating grass and 2) getting back inside at the earliest opportunity. We even left the back door open for extended periods of time, and the most she did was sit inside it looking out, but retreating back into the house whenever anyone approached. Even when I started taking her for walks in the Pet-a-roo she was always eager to get back inside - until one day about 2-3 weeks ago when all of a sudden all she wanted to do was explore the neighbours drive and not go back in at all. Which is about the same time the trouble started, I suspect.


This is interesting.

So despite her confidence in the house on her territory and with Charlie, she was still fearful of the scary big new outside world. Perhaps that in itself has been a source of frustration and stress for her? If she has been feeling restricted, yet fearful of expanding her horizons, perhaps this frustration might have led her to become aggressive towards Charlie?


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## Ely01 (May 14, 2014)

ForeverHome said:


> I have successfully taught kittens to keep away from roads, as mentioned before at 3-6 months, I'm doubtful it will work with Lori though because she is that much older and has already started to go where she wants.
> 
> The idea behind it is for the first ventures out, you go with the kitten, every time it goes somewhere undesirable you call them away, quite forcefully. Every time they go in a good direction, encourage.


Out of interest FH, what age is too late, and how often do you take them out on training trips?

I'm a bit indecisive about letting Oleg (7 months) out, for different reasons, have taken him out in the garden 3 times to spend time out under supervision, never out to the street side tho. 
Note : the last time in the garden was last week and he wasn't shy to explore as he had been the first 2 times, I kind of regretted taking him out just after dinner


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Ely01 said:


> Out of interest FH, what age is too late, and how often do you take them out on training trips?
> 
> I'm a bit indecisive about letting Oleg (7 months) out, for different reasons, have taken him out in the garden 3 times to spend time out under supervision, never out to the street side tho.
> Note : the last time in the garden was last week and he wasn't shy to explore as he had been the first 2 times, I kind of regretted taking him out just after dinner


The last kitten I had was 26 years ago, as far as I remember we started as soon as she had her kitten jabs so must have been 3-4 weeks after we got her. I brought her home 1st July and by August we were spending lots of time in the garden together. The idea behind it is to take over where mum left off as a kind of surrogate mum, so that there is no gap in their education. I went back to school in September and I don't think she had free range yet, I can't remember exactly when she got to come and go by herself as she pleased.

I think we were out daily - it wasn't an organised and planned thing, just that I was home and enjoying time outdoors with my kitten! I would imagine it should be most effective at 3-6 months and by a year they would be too independent to listen - but I haven't had the chance to test this out. Since then our cats have come as adults and apart from Henry have stayed close to the house, and even Henry was shy of our very quiet cul-de-sac, so I haven't had to worry about it since then.

If you have a garden side away from the street that's so much better, hopefully Oleg will see there is nothing very interesting where the road is and keep away.

Aw yes they do say to let them out before feeding time so they are hungry and don't go too far 

What's your reservations about Oleg going out? I think you have to be comfortable with whatever you do, otherwise if things do go wrong you take it extra hard because you went against your own better judgement, if that makes sense.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> So despite her confidence in the house on her territory and with Charlie, she was still fearful of the scary big new outside world. Perhaps that in itself has been a source of frustration and stress for her? If she has been feeling restricted, yet fearful of expanding her horizons, perhaps this frustration might have led her to become aggressive towards Charlie?


Possibly - at least until a few weeks ago when she decided to explore next door's drive.

Since that sudden change (when the problems really started, too), she's seemed quite eager to be outside - I took her to a church afternoon even on Sunday, and she was quite happy mooching round the manse garden on her harness merrily ignoring about 40 people. Didn't want to go back in her carrier after, either, she must have been enjoying herself!

Anyway, just insured her, so tonight might well be the night to try her outside with the Frenzy for the first time, though I do need to let Charlie out for a bit first, and I'm out some of the evening, so it might be tomorrow evening...

My, but I'm getting nervous! Should I put her harness on her, do you think, or just the collar?


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## Ely01 (May 14, 2014)

ForeverHome said:


> If you have a garden side away from the street that's so much better, hopefully Oleg will see there is nothing very interesting where the road is and keep away.
> 
> Aw yes they do say to let them out before feeding time so they are hungry and don't go too far
> 
> What's your reservations about Oleg going out? I think you have to be comfortable with whatever you do, otherwise if things do go wrong you take it extra hard because you went against your own better judgement, if that makes sense.


Reason of my question :
The garden is enclosed by buildings so there is no real access to the street once in the garden, but it's HUGE (several patches/gardens separated by mere fences, cats and children can freely travel from one garden to the next, larger humans can access only some of them) so if Oleg is out it's be better if he was trained to respond to calls. He's not really.

And the reason I'm a little indecisive about him going to the garden is I'm on the second floor of what they call a tenement building, with a busy-ish street at the front, and the garden at the back. If I want to let him have fun in the garden I either have to take him down myself (that's what I did the 3 times he was there), OR get catflaps for my door and the door to the garden and let him go by himself but then the risk would be for him to get out the door to the street if somebody happens to come in when he's about to go out (he's the inquisitive, sociable and confident type).

Perhaps with a bit of training I could teach him not to go through that door/onto the street, if it's not too late. He responds to "nt nt" and to "no" a little (in some circumstances) but I haven't trained him to anything much apart from not climbing the paper lamp and the plants. He's a prince!

So 2 late training needs : respond to calls, not to go onto the street.

Yes I think confident as he's growing next time I take him out it will when he's on an empty stomach. The first 2 times I took him out he was very shy and stuck to a tiny bush, the last time however he was properly exploring, head high and trotting around


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Ely01 said:


> Reason of my question :
> The garden is enclosed by buildings so there is no real access to the street once in the garden, but it's HUGE (several patches/gardens separated by mere fences, cats and children can freely travel from one garden to the next, larger humans can access only some of them) so if Oleg is out it's be better if he was trained to respond to calls. He's not really.
> 
> And the reason I'm a little indecisive about him going to the garden is I'm on the second floor of what they call a tenement building, with a busy-ish street at the front, and the garden at the back. If I want to let him have fun in the garden I either have to take him down myself (that's what I did the 3 times he was there), OR get catflaps for my door and the door to the garden and let him go by himself but then the risk would be for him to get out the door to the street if somebody happens to come in when he's about to go out (he's the inquisitive, sociable and confident type).
> ...


The garden situation sounds ideal! But I understand your concern about his getting out the wrong door.

Would it be an option to have a ramp from your window all the way doen into the garden? Or a series of steps he can jump up and down? I'm 2nd floor too and I couldn't because of the landlord, but it's worth considering maybe.

Would Oleg be happy to be let out and then miaow to let you know he wants to come in? And would you be happy with that long term? He might settle into a routine of going out once or twice a day and all be well. The other thing to consider with cat flaps is if say a dog appeared in the stairs, how would Oleg react?

Personally I try not to use treats to train cats, but then I don't do all that much training with them. I feel that I am tricking them to come to me for food and then taking them indoors against their will. I prefer them to know I'd like them to come in please and decide to cooperate, or lead me a merry dance if they really want to. But treats I'm sure make it all a lot easier.

Have you done much recall work in the flat with him? If not you can start with "calling" him when he is coming to you anyway, like if he is coming towards you to get on your lap, call him and encourage him. He then associates you calling him with getting a fuss. Progress to calling him when he isn't coming towards you already. Then call him just because he is in another room - whether you want to do this with treats or cuddles doesn't matter, as long as it's positive no matter how long he takes to come. Outside, I would think that as long as he gets enough time to do what he wants he (hopefully) shouldn't mind coming in when you ask, but that's for the two of you to negotiate!

I had Bobby trained to come and greet me at the door but since Molly arrived he has been more concerned with her being anxious because the door has been opened, than coming to greet me :frown2: but he still does if I've been away for a long time.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Well, it looks like that, barring bad weather, tonight is going to be the night. I have fresh supplies of Temptations and Dreamies, a details canister for her collar all filled out, and she hasn't managed to remove the collar!

Charlie will have to be allowed out first for a while, and then I'll have to swap them over when she comes back for Lori to have a turn. Hopefully she'll enjoy a good session with the Frenzy, as she hasn't seen it for nearly a week!

In a moment of possible madness, I also bought a clicker and I'm going to try clicker training with Lori - she's a very intelligent cat and very treat oriented too, so hopefully she should take to it quite quickly.

I'm still not sure how to approach having them non-separated in the house again, though - any suggestions?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Re: the temporary mesh barrier door I mentioned earlier - when my kittens first arrived I had them in one room upstairs and instead of shutting the door on them, my OH fitted a DIY mesh door in the opening, so the kitties could see through it and the adult cats could see them. There was no need to remove the existing door as the temporary door was fitted on the outside of the door jamb and opened the opposite way to the wooden door (if you follow me?)

After a few weeks, we moved the mesh door so that it was fixed across the landing (not near the stairs). This gave the kitties access to 2 bedrooms and part of the landing, which was great for them. At night time they are still restricted to their part of the house, by us closing the mesh door across the landing. 

Even with your open bannister at the top of the stairs is there not some way of erecting a barrier beyond that? i.e. do you have more than one room located beyond the open bannister? I remember at my last house we blocked off the open bannister at the top of the stairs with mesh, for safety reasons, as I was concerned about my cats falling off it to the hall below.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

No, there are no more rooms upstairs - I was standing in the bathroom to take the photo on the first page, that tiny square you see is all the landing I have. My house is a one bedroom semi-detached, and there are only three internal doors in the entire place - the bedroom, the bathroom and the one between main downstairs and the front door (the 'hall' is a square just big enough to allow the front door to open!). So I'd have to get someone in to do proper structural stuff to do anything of that kind (I don't have an OH to help...), especially given the open sided stairs.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> The one between main downstairs and the front door (the 'hall' is a square just big enough to allow the front door to open!). So I'd have to get someone in to do proper structural stuff to do anything of that kind (I don't have an OH to help...), especially given the open sided stairs.


Does this door separate the upstairs and the downstairs? We live in a 2 bed semi and as you open the front door you walk into a square hall big enough for the door. Ahead of you are the stairs and to the left is a door so I cam separate the upstairs from the downstairs which is ideal for our situation at the moment.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

oggers86 said:


> Does this door separate the upstairs and the downstairs? We live in a 2 bed semi and as you open the front door you walk into a square hall big enough for the door. Ahead of you are the stairs and to the left is a door so I cam separate the upstairs from the downstairs which is ideal for our situation at the moment.


No, the stairs open off the downstairs, you can see them behind Lori in the earlier photo of me downstairs with her


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## Ely01 (May 14, 2014)

ForeverHome said:


> The garden situation sounds ideal! But I understand your concern about his getting out the wrong door.
> 
> Would it be an option to have a ramp from your window all the way doen into the garden? Or a series of steps he can jump up and down? I'm 2nd floor too and I couldn't because of the landlord, but it's worth considering maybe.
> 
> ...


We're too high up for a ramp, from flat to street it's 2nd floor but garden is further down so from flat to garden it's like 3 floors, pretty high. 
Cat flaps - I hadn't thought about dogs...he spent the first few weeks of his like with a big family friendly doggy, but I guess all dogs are different!

Will try and train him to respond to calls so when I take him to the garden, it's easier to get him back after he's had his bit of fun.

Bobby - aren't they sweet when they come and greet you at the door? 
I was away the other weekend and Oleg stayed with my flatmate but she was out quite a lot. Oleg is so used to having company most days (I work from home)...when I got home in the evening he was at the door and I had the most cuddly kitten in the whole wide word all evening.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Well, Lori was out for about an hour in total, 20 minutes the first tine, 40 minutes the second. Plenty of playing with the Frenzy and plenty exploring, although she showed no sign of any interest in trying to scale the fence (yet!)

She and Charlie also saw each othr briefly when I swapped them round, with no hissing on either part, so I'm hoping that's a good sign.

On the other hand, Lori showed no interest in recall for treats at all :mad2: Any ideas how else to teach her recall?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds like good progress Jesthar! :thumbsup:

With regard to recall - did you leave Lori in the garden on her own, whilst you went indoors? She needs to be out of your sight for recall to work, otherwise she will wonder why you're calling her. 

Have you been practicing recall in the house, i.e. with you going to another part of the house out of her sight and then calling her to you, (I also tap a food dish) then rewarding her with a meal or treats?

If she does not come for treats then you let her out before a meal, when she is hungry, and when you call her tap her food dish a few times and call her name, so she knows it is time for her meal.

Eventually you will be able to call her in successfully without giving a treat or food every time. But I always praise them and make a fuss of them when one of my cats comes home promptly when called.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Jesthar and Ely - I've never had to use the lure of treats or food, I don't really know what I do. I have ones who just look at me sometimes as if I'd landed from Planet Zog then deliberately ignore me, but those are just cats deciding today they won't play ball. All have come when called as far as I can remember, even if sometimes they choose to blow me a raspberry. 

All I can think is as Chillminx says practice in the house, not as a planned structured thing but when you find yourself alone in a room and think of it, call. It will take time. Don't get frustrated. I think it's Pat Parelli the natural horsemanship trainer who says if you act like you have 10 minutes it will take all day; if you act like you have all day it will take 10 minutes. Animals sense our frustrations and that stops them understanding what we want, confuses them or makes them wary.

eta of course free fed cats will be harder to train with food than mealtime cats, but there's always Dreamies! Personally I'm reluctant to use treats because some day there has to be that first time you ask them to do it, they do it right and get no reward. I prefer to give cuddles and praise or hey let's go over to this part of the garden let me show you something! That's just me


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Sounds like good progress Jesthar! :thumbsup:
> 
> With regard to recall - did you leave Lori in the garden on her own, whilst you went indoors? She needs to be out of your sight for recall to work, otherwise she will wonder why you're calling her.
> 
> ...


Charlie has (nearly!) always come when called when outside (it's 50/50 when she's indoors), so all this is new to me! 

Lori is difficult to practice with when indoors at the moment, as that would mean giving her the run of the house whilst Charlie is out, which risks her starting to charge the back door again. As Charlie grumbled when she saw her yesterday on swap round, I don't think we're there yet with potentially allowing them to mix again, so I really don't want to risk her chasing Charlie. But inside she normally comes running straight away at the rattle of the Temptations box. Outside, she's just not been interested, even if I am out of sight (tried that several times last night, she sort of responded the first time but didn't want a treat and ignored calls from then on ). So I went with putting down a lot of treats when I brought her in and then feeding her straight away instead.

Would dropping her breakfast, or at least greatly reducing it, so she's really very hungry when it comes to outside time be worth considering?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Charlie has (nearly!) always come when called when outside (it's 50/50 when she's indoors), so all this is new to me!
> 
> Lori is difficult to practice with when indoors at the moment, as that would mean giving her the run of the house whilst Charlie is out, which risks her starting to charge the back door again. As Charlie grumbled when she saw her yesterday on swap round, I don't think we're there yet with potentially allowing them to mix again, so I really don't want to risk her chasing Charlie. But inside she normally comes running straight away at the rattle of the Temptations box. Outside, she's just not been interested, even if I am out of sight (tried that several times last night, she sort of responded the first time but didn't want a treat and ignored calls from then on ). So I went with putting down a lot of treats when I brought her in and then feeding her straight away instead.
> 
> Would dropping her breakfast, or at least greatly reducing it, so she's really very hungry when it comes to outside time be worth considering?


Don't give up working on recall. Start in the same room if that's the situation, just call her over for no reason other than to stroke her or even to say hello. Build up slowly from there.

When you call her name (without rattling treats) does Lori raise her tail or respond in any way?

Bobby comes when called ... except if I'm calling him for his food. Then he knows it's food and if he's not hungry he will ignore me. If I call him without food, he comes. If he hears the Webbox packet he also comes without fail. They are intelligent and if Lori doesn't fancy a treat and knows that's what's on offer, bah. But if she learns to want to come because you're inviting her to, well that's a result 

My issue with treats (apart from the first time they get it right and get no reward) is that I find it hard to make the transition from doing it for the treat to doing it because they want to. I fond it easier to go straight to doing it because they are willing to please me, and that's why I'm prepared to negotiate on everything with a cat, because we're reaching agreement.

I also have a real problem with using treats to bait a trap. I think if I put treats inside the pet carrier, for example, then shut the door and take them to the vet, the cat will remain suspicious of the carrier and also become suspicious of the treats, and eventually of me. I'd like to get Molly to walk into the carrier on command, but it's very important that I never, ever shut the door on her when she walks in of her own accord without a command from me. I want her to feel free to go in it without anything happening.

I think it's an honest way to deal with a cat and it's an absolute ideal that I'm sure nobody is ever going to achieve - but that's my aim. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with these couple of examples, it's a funny little ideology, but if anything in it works for you you're welcome to it.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Well, Lori has been going out for abou an hour most days now, and I've gradually been letting her get on with her own exploring more and more, although we do have a good Frenzy session as part of it. So far no interest has been shown in tring to scale any of the fences, either, which I'm glad about - that will probably change, but at least she's really getting to know the garden first. She's also coming back when called more, too 

On the downside, I decided to try letting her downstairs for half an hour before letting her out tonight, and Charlie went straight back into grouch mode, despite being held and Lori not getting too near  So I think Lori's going to be stuck with the bedroom for some time yet


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Great news she's exploring a bit more - that's bound to help in the long run & also get a bit more energy off her.

It will take Charlie a while to come around - he's probably got to the point that when he sees Lori he expects something to happen and he needs to re-learn that she's actually OK!

Good luck


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Lots of positive in there though and you never know, as long as your garden is interesting (from a cat's eye point of view of course) spending this time with her in it will be a kind of soft training giving her the message that this is a good place to be. Not saying she won't go wandering, but may be less likely to, because of this time you're investing in being with her in the garden. 

Maybe when reintroducing them it might work better with Charlie coming to the bedroom door rather than Lori coming downstairs? That way it would be Charlie coming to Lori's room and not the teenager who tried taking over the world being up to her old tricks again, if you see what I mean?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Oh, I hope my garden is interesting for cats - it's not huge but has a good amount of lawn to romp on, a patio set to jump and sleep on, and a raised border and quite a few bushes in the borders to hide under and explore. I have toyed with the idea of planting some cat grass and/or catnip just for hoots and giggles 

I decided to try letting Charlie-girl into the bedroom for a few minutes before letting Lori out last night, and the results were a bit mixed. On the one hand, Charlie went straight into grump and growl mode, on the other she jumped straight up on the windowsill and parker herself slap bang next to Lori (as in touching distance) with only a thin curtain separating them - I don't understand this girl sometimes!  Lori was cornered right in the corner wall of the windowsill, but somehow thought better of moving until Charlie did, which I wasn't expecting - I was sure she'd try and interact and set Charlie off, but she must have thought better of it... After that I let Lori out, but did make the mistake of trying to cheer up Charlie with a bit of fuss, which only made her worse of course - I keep forgetting cats aren't kids and can't be comforted... 

After that I wasn't planning on trying the experiment again so soon, but Charlie came uipstairs of her own volition this morning and it was too good an opportunity to miss. The outcome was somewhat similar, growly-hissy from Charlie but straight up onto the windowsill, with a bit more grouching when Lori went up there too (I didn't let her get too close, but Lori backed off herself and jumped down after a minute), but she did come to me for cuddles downstairs after she'd had her breakfast. Suspect we're in for a long haul with this, then...


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

The dynamics of their relationship have changed though, haven't they? Lori doesn't have the upper hand any more, she has to wait for Charlie to let her get off the window sill, she can't just approach, she seems to have respect for Charlie's space. 

You know when cats nonchalantly sit in a doorway or just somewhere seemingly innocent? It's not always so innocent, it can be a strategic position and cause major disruption. Molly and Bobby are always at it, Bobby lying across my path (taking ownership of me) or lying on the edge of the bed (same thing) or sitting out in the hall after they've been playing chase because Molly has "won" the living room. I let it go as long as it's a game and goes both ways. The moment Bobby becomes clingy, or Molly sits casually in the way while Bobby is outside the door, then I look up at them both and ask what's going on. The words mean nothing to them of course but they both look at me and get that I'm really saying now children behave! and both move in the next few seconds. 

Some of the nuances of cat interactions are so subtle but even just sitting with their back, front or side towards you or another cat can be loaded with meaning. I find nothing more fascinating than getting to know each cat or pair of cats' language. 

Growling for instance can be Charlie growling at Lori to go away, or warning Lori that she can stay put but not move any closer, or it could be a general grumble without any particular target. It could even be telling Lori she isn't allowed to do anything at all while Charlie claims the window sill as her own territory. You get to know the differences in the end, but it's hard to just observe without getting emotionally involved or letting our own fears for one cat's safety get in the way. 

But it's worth it  Because you learn to step in only when necessary, and let them pretty much work it out themselves while you just supervise. I believe that makes each cat feel more autonomous, rather than the human trying to dictate everything. If you had removed Charlie as soon as the growl started, they wouldn't have had the opportunity to have this little exchange that probably did a lot for them to "discuss" their role and place.

Just my observations, I'm no expert


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> when cats nonchalantly sit in a doorway or just somewhere seemingly innocent? It's not always so innocent, it can be a strategic position


This is so true FH!:biggrin:


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

chillminx said:


> This is so true FH!:biggrin:


They are funny to watch sometimes.

Should have added - if Bobby is on the edge of the bed and Molly by the door, but I have a clear line of sight between Molly and me, that's fine. If he moves 6 inches up the bed so he is blocking Molly's direct line to me, I move him. It's such a subtle change but it tells her she is equal in my eyes although I respect their positions with each other, and it tells Bobby I love him but he does not own me. I've had to pay close attention to these nuances of language because Molly is so people-shy and Bobby so attched to one person (me) and it really helps. If I'm stroking Molly and he walks past us I acknowledge him and carry on. If he walks between us or complains, Molly backs away because she knows her place with him, but I walk away from the pair of them so that I'm not dropping her for him, which would give him permission to keep doing it. If Bobby is on my lap and Molly cries for attention, I acknowledge her but I would never move Bobby and go to her. They have to understand who was there first, as long as they are polite about it they get an acknowledgement, if they are stroppy about it they get nothing.

I hope this all makes sense, cats are such complex creatures!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

FH, you are so right, and it makes me really sad in a way. I, like you, get cats all the way down, but am so limited in what I can do re body language as I miss out on so many of these subtle signs through not seeing them. I suspect that I could really kerb some of the aggression that we're currently getting in the house if i could do what you've been chatting about, as mine are so responsive to my voice that it's ridiculous. I've only to tell them to be nice and everything stops (if I catch it at the right moment), but I rely on grumpy grannycat mouthing off before she charges so I can nip it in the bud.

I think cat body language should never, ever be underestimated.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

carly87 said:


> I think cat body language should never, ever be underestimated.


 I completely agree Carly! I too am fascinated by it.

Like your cats mine are also amazingly responsive to my voice, e.g. if one cat is being a bit narky with another, they will stop immediately if I calmly but firmly tell them to stop.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

If only we didn't have to work and could catwatch all day long eh


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If only we had working peepers!


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## Isisini (Jun 3, 2014)

Hey OP,

I've been talking to a behaviourist about my territorial cat, and thought some of her advice might be pertinent or helpful to you too. Of course her advice was specific to my situation (my cat has turned into a spray monster since the kitten arrived.. but we think this could actually be to do with other cats in the area) but I thought the general guidance was very sound. 

She talked a lot about the importance of reminding your adult cat that they are not losing anything by having the kitten in their territory - by providing lots of toys/trees/litter trays/water bowls, to create the feeing of abundance.

She also mentioned that while roughhousing is scary, if my older cat (who weighs 5kg) really wanted to hurt the kitten, given the size and strength difference he probably would have done so by now.. so suggested that what I was perceive as violence is probably just big cat/little cat discipline and rough play.

That said, she suggested making sure there were loads of places of the little one to hide and the big one to perch in the home, to ensure that things cannot get too out of hand and that if either cat is too stressed by the encounter they have somewhere to retreat to. One idea was to fill a room with cardboard boxes of different sizes, some to jump on, some to hide in. She emphasised the importance of 'good clutter', i.e. spaces that naturally prevent chasing and allow cats an opportunity to break eye contact. Clear hallways, for example, are a natural chasing run. 

Her advice was not to separate the cats too much, as while they are small you have an excellent window to integrate them and as they get older this becomes harder. But create lots of positive experiences for your cats when they are together, like giving them treats they love that aren't part of their base diet. But make sure each has a core territory in the home - in my case, the kitten will always spend nights in the study, and the big cat has the bedroom.

I'm going to be practicing this advice myself a lot over the next few weeks but thought I'd share in case any of this helps you too!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Well, we had a bit of a palaver last night!

Lori was having her turn in the garden, and I was just calling her in for food, when suddenly Charlie appeared at the back door coming the other way! I have NO idea how she managed to get my bedroom door open, especially as it opens inwards so she couldn't just push her way out, but she did! 

Bit of a hiss from Charlie as they came face to face, and before I could grab either one Charlie decided to try and trot away, which caused Lori to trot after her, which caused Charlie to run, and of course Lori followed in a play chase, and they ran two laps of the garden before I finally managed to intercept them! Charlie bunked over the fence as I was taking Lori in, but was back in a few minutes for tea, so I'm hoping she's not too traumatised!

I'm _fairly_ certain Lori was just looking to play, as we've been playing chase with the Frenzy a lot out there, and she also chases flies and bees. She certainly wasn't growling herself. Charlie was certainly not interested in reciprocating, although she did restrict herself to a few hisses and a minor grumble. But it wasn't exactly the carefully planned first joint foray into the garden I'd hoped for  Goodness knows where that leaves progress so far!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

That doesn't sound bad to me. I think if Lori was looking to chase Charlie away I'd have expected some fluffing up, ears flat, arched back, tip-toe walking - and from Charlie a bolt rather than a trot. But that could be how the pattern of chase and run became established, maybe?


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> Well, we had a bit of a palaver last night!
> 
> Lori was having her turn in the garden, and I was just calling her in for food, when suddenly Charlie appeared at the back door coming the other way! I have NO idea how she managed to get my bedroom door open, especially as it opens inwards so she couldn't just push her way out, but she did!
> 
> ...


aww so sorry but that sounds quite funny, it's the way you tell em , best wishes xx


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> That doesn't sound bad to me. I think if Lori was looking to chase Charlie away I'd have expected some fluffing up, ears flat, arched back, tip-toe walking - and from Charlie a bolt rather than a trot. But that could be how the pattern of chase and run became established, maybe?


Oh, aside from when Lori started to charge the back door, the chase and run thing has pretty much always been Lori pouncing Charlie and Charlie not wanting any part of it, partocularly if Charlie has been moving away at the time. Once in a blue moon they have actually played proper play chase together for a while, but that's a rarity.

Just one more of the joys of a small house - lots of corners to hide around for little kittens! 



moggiemum said:


> aww so sorry but that sounds quite funny, it's the way you tell em , best wishes xx


Heh, I know what you mean - I'd have found it funny if I hadn't been so worried at the time!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Right, I have a friend coming round tomorrow night, and I'm hoping to give Lori lots of time with her in the quest to help her learn that other people are nice and not scary. She really wants to meet both the cats, so I'm hoping to make the most of a second person being around, so any suggestions for things to try are welcome!

The other thing I'm not sure of is how to work Charlie into this equation. Having them together downstairs may not be a good plan, but letting Charlie out and shutting the back door may not be helpful either as if Lori sees her in the garden she may start charging the back door again, which is one of the things which kicked all this off in the first place. On the other hand, to shut her up in my room (Lori's room) for half the evening seems a bit unfair on Charlie.

I have been carrying on trying to have them both together in my bedroom for a while, which is going OK, although I do have to keep a sharp eye on Lori in case she starts eying up Charlies twitching tail for a pounce. That's one of the bigger problems I've got, as when Lori is fixated on something, very little will distract her short of physical intervention. That's not too hard when I'm sitting on the bed doing nothing, but a lot tricker when downstairs and trying to get things done as well as keep track of where all the cats are (even I can't see round corners... )


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Would you be happy to let Lori stay in her room and have your friend come to meet her there? I'm thinking if Lori is in her safe place she has a better chance of feeling relaxed enough to come and investigate a new person.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Would you be happy to let Lori stay in her room and have your friend come to meet her there? I'm thinking if Lori is in her safe place she has a better chance of feeling relaxed enough to come and investigate a new person.


Possibly, although I can barely get in my room at the moment, I've got all the crud from the rest of the house hidden in there!  Lori being in the bedroom is more about Charlie being less stressed at the moment, she'd be more than happy to still have the rin of the house!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Well, my friends visit went well, I split the time downstairs about 50/50 with them, and Lori played with toys like a good 'un 

But we had a bit of a major incident last night - just Lori, not Charlie. 

I've been taking Lori out on her harness and lead and tethering her the last few evenings whilst Charlie roams free, to try and get them used to being out there together. Charlie had been handling that quite well, even sitting within leash range of Lori, so as whilst free roaming Lori has often accompanied me whilst I water the veg with my hosepipe (trigger spray), and has been content to swipe at the moving hose whilst I drag it round the garden, I figured I'd take her with me on the harness as I watered to get Charlie used to her moving around

BIG mistake. I'm not sure if it was being on the harness, but the instant I triggered the spray, Lori went into panic mode. I managed to calm her down and get her to sit on my lap and watch me water a gro bag, but the instant I moved on to the raised bed and she was back on the ground she went mental again, and it was an absolute blessing I'd clipped her claws before we went outside, as when I bent down to try and still her she was climbing up me and trying to bury herself into my shoulder - it still hurt like the blazes and I have scratch marks everywhere, but at least I'm not sliced to ribbons. To compound matters I dropped the hose trigger to attend to her, and as we had to pass it to get back to the house I couldn't get her to go back down, but the way she was flailing carrying her was impossible. In the end I had to let her loose, and she bolted most of the length of the garden before coming to a stop and waiting for me to retrieve her.

Charlie was just padding around watching all of this (she's not bothered by the lawnmower, let alone the hose!), but she did seem a little sympahetic to Lori after - probably me anthropomorpising, but she did stay quite close during the whole event and immediately after, and even came inside when I took Lori in, something she normally refuses to do even if I'm holding Lori. In fact, it's pretty much the closest voulntary tolerance I've seen them since the last time I had the Sucky Monster (vacuum cleaner!) out.

I'm not sure where this will leave Lori in the confidence stakes, though - she seems to be getting more nervous, not more confident.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Well, I thought I'd give quick update.

We're having our ups and downs, but we do seem to be making some progress. Lori still spends a lot ot time in my room, but in the evenings when i get home I'm bringing her down on her harness so they meet at the back door when I let Charlie out. We've had one or two days when this has resulted in growling or hissing from Charlie, but more often we've had ignoring in the eagerness to be out (sometimes even with purring!), or even quick face rubs!

I then have one or two places I can safely tether Lori in the garden whilst Charlie roams - both seem happy enough with that. This weekend we went a step further, as when I'm in all day and the weather is nice the back door is also open all day, and Charlie will come in after a while to sleep on the Tigga Tower or the sofa (or me!) for an hour or two, so I decided to let Lori roam freely through the house and garden whenever Charlie did that, and re-tether her when Charlie decided she wanted some outdoor time.

And I'm not saying it too loudly, as I don't want to tempt Murphy, but it seemed to go OK. We didn't have chasing from Lori (though I was watching carefully to try and make sure she didn't), she didn't try and leave the garden, and although we had a couple of hisses from Charlie, we also had one 'free range' nose sniff and rub when they met at the back door, and a few times when they walked past each other without hissing or incident. So hopefully we're moving in the right direction 

Lori still has major confidence issues when it comes to other people, though. My best friend and her hubby popped round for quick visit a couple of nights ago as they hadn't met Lori yet (my friend has mobility probs and my house isn't the easiest to access), and Lori was very nervous and didn't really want to go near them. She has got a lot better with loud noises, though, as next door are building an extension, so I'm hoping we can overcome the people phobia too


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