# Covid Political



## Happy Paws2

Is this the best they can do, not a good example is it..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58993387


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## £54etgfb6

It is a bit hypocritical that downing street recommend and have even _urged_ wearing masks in "crowded and enclosed spaces" but these MPs do not follow the recommendations they themselves make. But is it surprising? After the ex health minister himself was caught going to his holiday home or whatever while we were in lockdown and people were being FINED for walking "too far away from their house" and then being caught having an affair when masks were still law in England. Also, how does one judge if an area is crowded anyway? It's so subjective the public should not be expected to make choices like this when most people have no understanding of viral transmission rates or the fact that one person being in the same room as you is enough to infect you, let alone enough to be "crowded".


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## 3dogs2cats

Savid was uncomfortable when he was asked at the briefing why minister where not wearing masks in the HoC. It does seem a bit odd to have a government urging the public to wear masks in crowded places but they and the backbench are not. 
Back when most office staff where preferring to remain working from home, the government - well Rees-Mogg anyway said all civil servants should return to their offices and MPs should all return to sit in the Commons rather than via video link to set an example to the public that is was safe to return to normal working conditions. I feel the lack of mask wearing is a similar situation, the government want to look like business as usual to the public but now we are in a bit of a muddle because the health secretary is having to address the public to ask them to wear masks as they are clearly concerned about the rise in cases and potential effect on NHS.
They are going to have to sort this out, either they think the wearing of masks is useful in preventing the spread of C19 or they don't. Its a bit wishy washy to say in some circumstances, human nature being what it is we need clear guidance, we can argue that we shouldn't and can make up our own minds but that doesn't alter the fact that we do by large follow rules if they are clear.


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## MollySmith

I'm going to put this here in the front of the thread as it's an independent fact checker site so we can be mindful of being correct in anything we share

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus/?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=trending


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## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> It is a bit hypocritical that downing street recommend and have even _urged_ wearing masks in "crowded and enclosed spaces" but these MPs do not follow the recommendations they themselves make. But is it surprising? After the ex health minister himself was caught going to his holiday home or whatever while we were in lockdown and people were being FINED for walking "too far away from their house" and then being caught having an affair when masks were still law in England. Also, how does one judge if an area is crowded anyway? It's so subjective the public should not be expected to make choices like this when most people have no understanding of viral transmission rates or the fact that one person being in the same room as you is enough to infect you, let alone enough to be "crowded".


I am always of the mindset lead by example.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Is this the best they can do, not a good example is it..
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58993387


The assertion that Labour's conference didn't enforce mask wearing is childish - this is the sort of behaviour on all sides I hate . Rees-Mogg could easily check the guidance which asked attendees to wear a mask when moving around, I found it easily. It'd petulant and avoids the question by attempting to divert blame elsewhere for an optional law his own party brought it. I've always thought the way Covid is managed should be cross party to stop pointless blame gaming like this.

These are the Labour conference rules which are a lot tighter than most business events I've been invited too (and declined or taken up the online option)


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## O2.0

Personally I think politicizing the pandemic has been the worst thing that could happen. Certainly it's true on this side of the pond. 
People are deciding whether to get vaccinated, wear a mask, isolate or not based on political leanings and it has become a completely ridiculous conversation. We should be basing our behavior on the evidence about this virus. But even what evidence is allowed to be shared has become politicized which has in turned ruined any trust the public has in our agencies. 
I mean, we're in a pandemic and the CDC and WHO are contradicting themselves. You don't know who to listen to! 

Vaccines do work though. The evidence from hospitals is overwhelming. 98+ % of those hospitalized are unvaccinated. 


Personal pet peeve right now is the animosity related to how people choose to deal with the whole situation. The virtue signaling maskers who jump at the chance to shame anyone not wearing a mask, the anti maskers who jump at the chance to attack those wearing masks as fear mongers and sheep... I'm just exhausted of it all.


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## kimthecat

They should set by example . Wednesdays questions , a lot of MPs weren't wearing masks .


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## MollySmith

What makes me despair about the U.K. is how the government give the impression - to me anyway - of ignoring scientists and researchers from the start. I don’t understand why they do that, it should be science and medicine lead and politics last with the laws made from science and medical evidence. All this pandemic has down is shown - globally - how stupid politics is.


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## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> What makes me despair about the U.K. is how the government give the impression - to me anyway - of ignoring scientists and researchers from the start. I don't understand why they do that, it should be science and medicine lead and politics last with the laws made from science and medical evidence. All this pandemic has down is shown - globally - how stupid politics is.


I cannot agree with this enough!!!! Aspects of the virus outside of the science behind it have their place and are undeniably important but I full-heartedly believe health must come first. I am not asking for billions of pounds to be diverted to the NHS to alleviate the stress of treating covid patients but keeping mask-wearing the law, and reminding people of it, costs nothing! The fact that at the start of all of this our prime minister suggested herd immunity instead of restrictions/lockdowns is insane to me. Honestly, it makes my skin crawl that the government seem, in my opinion, okay with people needlessly dying. Deaths are going to happen regardless of any interventions taken but so many of the deaths _have_ been preventable. Throughout this whole pandemic, the government have been too afraid or too unwilling to go into the deep end and so we have been dipping our toes into the pool back and forth. Nobody is going to operate a country perfectly, especially during a situation we have not experienced in a while, but the lack of care for the advice from the NHS and research scientists is mind-boggling. The fact that Plan B has apparently not even been discussed? Are they going to wait until it is potentially too late? Vaccines are not going to cure the issue we still need restrictions in place and everyone is tired of them yes but are health and lives not more important? It disappoints me so much sorry for this ranty paragraph.


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## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> What makes me despair about the U.K. is how the government give the impression - to me anyway - of ignoring scientists and researchers from the start. I don't understand why they do that, it should be science and medicine lead and politics last with the laws made from science and medical evidence. All this pandemic has down is shown - globally - how stupid politics is.


Exactly right now we have the NHS saying help and the government saying we don't need plan B.

@O2.2 I'm not sure in the U.K. we are following the advice of the party we affiliate with more people are so disillusioned they are hopping on the internet and getting advice on Facebook honestly I don't feel any party represents me.


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## MollySmith

I was going to edit the above but I won’t as it’s been quoted but to add that you all know I hate Boris and his lot - hell you must be tired of that - but I mean the above as a cross party comment. Yet too many excuses are made about it being unprecedented- to a point I agree - but the parliamentary report (cross party) show that it should have been handled better and the opposition parties need to do better at getting the answers.

We can vent here but one reason I refrained from starting this thread and won’t spend much time here is that I prefer to keep tabs on my MP and local councillors too, I can’t stress that enough. Even if you didn’t elect your MP you can still ask them to act and be accountable. Direct that anger. It’s about the best and only thing to do - and remember all this when it comes to the elections. As if we can forget.


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## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I cannot agree with this enough!!!! Aspects of the virus outside of the science behind it have their place and are undeniably important but I full-heartedly believe health must come first. I am not asking for billions of pounds to be diverted to the NHS to alleviate the stress of treating covid patients but keeping mask-wearing the law, and reminding people of it, costs nothing! The fact that at the start of all of this our prime minister suggested herd immunity instead of restrictions/lockdowns is insane to me. Honestly, it makes my skin crawl that the government seem, in my opinion, okay with people needlessly dying. Deaths are going to happen regardless of any interventions taken but so many of the deaths _have_ been preventable. Throughout this whole pandemic, the government have been too afraid or too unwilling to go into the deep end and so we have been dipping our toes into the pool back and forth. Nobody is going to operate a country perfectly, especially during a situation we have not experienced in a while, but the lack of care for the advice from the NHS and research scientists is mind-boggling. The fact that Plan B has apparently not even been discussed? Are they going to wait until it is potentially too late? Vaccines are not going to cure the issue we still need restrictions in place and everyone is tired of them yes but are health and lives not more important? It disappoints me so much sorry for this ranty paragraph.


Thank you.


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## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly right now we have the NHS saying help and the government saying we don't need plan B.
> 
> @O2.2 I'm not sure in the U.K. we are following the advice of the party we affiliate with more people are so disillusioned they are hopping on the internet and getting advice on Facebook honestly I don't feel any party represents me.


it's been interesting in Cambridge as it's a small city. We have Astra Zeneca here, the researchers of both Universities and Addenbrookes so pretty much everyone knows someone affected in some way by the pandemic. We are also historically Labour or Lib Dem. Mask wearing is still high compared to when I went South West. I'm sure this has a bearing on attitude.

I don't think any one party does represent me either, I tend to fall between several and I think it's a case of voting on what is important - for me that's the planet, equality and diversity. I certainly don't do party for life.

EDITED What I cannot abide is the apathy party who arrive post voting to moan. I get not voting on principle though I do not do this but it's the folk who complain later venomously and one finds they didn't vote or engage but had they done so could've changed history.

The cynic in me is always asking if the current no-plan-B is a distraction from another failing around the climate emergency or the big B/shortages.


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## MollySmith

And here is the UK cross party report on the handling of the Covid pandemic and you can also see from the 'document' tab the scale of evidence collected here. It's a huge collection of data from December 2020. I don't think it's possible to have a conversation about Covid in the U.K. without reading this.

***But with the warning it's not an easy read, I found it distressing and like many have lost loved ones to Covid ***

https://appgcoronavirus.marchforchange.uk/publicinquiry


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## StormyThai

MollySmith said:


> Even if you didn't elect your MP you can still ask them to act and be accountable.


Our MP is the illustrious Matt Hancock...hmmmmmm....accountability you say? :Hilarious:Hilarious

Sorry, couldn't resist :Bag


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## MollySmith

StormyThai said:


> Our MP is the illustrious Matt Hancock...hmmmmmm....accountability you say? :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist :Bag


oh lord, the man even the UN don't want. Yeah, there's accountability - and impossibility....


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## kimthecat

StormyThai said:


> Our MP is the illustrious Matt Hancock...hmmmmmm....accountability you say? :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist :Bag


I can beat that. Guess who my MP is ? Clue - he has lots of children !


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## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> I can beat that. Guess who my MP is ? Clue - he has lots of children !


So many he's lost count? Can't use a hairbrush?

*this thread is surely for you and @StormyThai*


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## cheekyscrip

Let’s say … why Delta is so widespread in UK but not so much in other West European countries?

Politics….
If BJ says no plan B then it obviously means that soon enough…. 
I wonder if people still find him funny?


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## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> Personal pet peeve right now is the animosity related to how people choose to deal with the whole situation.


This 100%!!! so many people have had such sh*t to deal with & everyone finds their own way of coping.


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## kimthecat




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## O2.0

Cleo38 said:


> This 100%!!! so many people have had such sh*t to deal with & everyone finds their own way of coping.


Seriously 

Sometimes I wear a mask, sometimes I don't. In my head, my reasons make sense, I don't expect anyone else to understand, just not judge.

Someone shared a lovely photo of our community doing good things in a community page, and one person commented about how few people were wearing masks. How sad when you see a photo of good, caring things going on in your community and not only do you not see the good, you feel the need to make a negative comment on masks. That person could just have kept scrolling, but no, have to make a mask comment.


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## Lurcherlad

Tbf we all comment on (and criticise) lots of things.

I wondered this morning why, when shown on tv this morning, The Queen has been meeting lots of groups of people indoors without everyone wearing masks, including her?

Considering she’s 95 years old, it seemed a sensible precaution for everyone to take …..

She was taken to hospital for a check up a few days after these meetings.


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## Mrs Funkin

I have it so ingrained in me to wear a mask (well, full PPE) that I find it odd when people don't in enclosed spaces. You'll have all seen my comments about enforcing it in our department - but that is about protecting pregnant women who may have chosen not to be vaccinated (and I get that, too, our official guidance only changed in May and many are still anxious about it and will continue to be), so we are protecting them. I do appreciate that people are finding it strange that we are so strict in the hospital compared to everywhere else.

I've chosen to take myself out of my usual social life because nobody is wearing a mask in "our" sailing club, nor the pub we go to. That's my choice though, I don't go in there and moan that folk aren't wearing a mask, I just don't go. I'm trying to behave more normally but it really difficult when you've watched the army wheeling dead bodies down the corridor to a temporary mortuary in the car park 'cos we ran out of porters and mortuary space  I've been saying for weeks how much I'm failing to deal with the return to normality. It's been okay over summer due to being able to be outside but heck, it's chilly now and I suspect that this winter won't be quite the fun of, "let's all wrap up and sit in the garden with a mulled wine", it will be a case of just not seeing people. Interesting you say that about your SW holiday @MollySmith as the numbers in that part of the country are the highest in England I think according to the stats released yesterday on the weekly update. I don't know how I'm going to snap myself out of it. ETA: I'm glad so much of my social contact is outside due to it being to do with running. Without that I'd have gone daft I think.

I'm a lifelong Labour voting girl - I certainly don't have much desire to vote for them currently though. There's essentially no point voting where I live as it's blue through and through…I really think that party politics should stay out of pandemic management and we should actually listen to scientists and doctors. Much as I hate to say it, I actually was wishing yesterday that Jeremy Hunt was still in health, rather than Sajid Javid. That's saying something…


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## Jobeth

Where I live mask wearing has always been minimal even though the rates here have been in the top 10. Even at the height of the pandemic I’ve rarely seen anyone wear one going into the garage.


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## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> This 100%!!! so many people have had such sh*t to deal with & everyone finds their own way of coping.


yes this too.

I've been in a call this morning and there is mention of a Xmas gathering. I said tentative due to rates rising, and told I was too cautious, we have to 'live with it' . I gently said that I don't want to live with it for the sake of one gathering. People have to be respectful of mask wearing. As I said earlier, Cambridge is small with Astra Zeneca based here and Addenbrookes a huge research hospital and left/liberal so we mostly wear masks.


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## £54etgfb6

Lurcherlad said:


> Tbf we all comment on (and criticise) lots of things.
> 
> I wondered this morning why, when shown on tv this morning, The Queen has been meeting lots of groups of people indoors without everyone wearing masks, including her?
> 
> Considering she's 95 years old, it seemed a sensible precaution for everyone to take …..
> 
> She was taken to hospital for a check up a few days after these meetings.


Could be one of those "business as usual" situations mentioned earlier (not sure which thread) to try and "boost morale" by not appearing to be living in fear of the virus. Or it may be that she genuinely doesn't care. Either way it's incredibly irresponsible as even if the people meeting her are getting a PCR test prior to meeting (which I don't know if they are or if they're even taking lateral flows) it is still not 100% accurate. If anything, I do hope it's her choice and not the choice of those around her.


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## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> yes this too.
> 
> I've been in a call this morning and there is mention of a Xmas gathering. I said tentative due to rates rising, and told I was too cautious, we have to 'live with it' . I gently said that I don't want to live with it for the sake of one gathering. People have to be respectful of mask wearing. As I said earlier, Cambridge is small with Astra Zeneca based here and Addenbrookes a huge research hospital and left/liberal so we mostly wear masks.


And this is where we are all different. one of my friends is very high risk due to being severely asthmatic & when we have gone out recently & been in the same car I am more than happy to have worn a mask if she wanted me to (she didn't) but I don't wear them all the time when out.

I've been to London & Norwich recently & tbh most people on the trains didn;t wear masks so I didn't bother. I did on the underground tho as it's disgusting on there anyway with such poor ventilation


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## Happy Paws2

We went to Sainsbury's this morning All staff and most older people still wearing masks, not many younger people wearing them.


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## Mrs Funkin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59009284

Interesting figures (I know, it's BBC reported but it's ONS information). I am very pleased to see that according to these figures hand washing and mask wearing are both still at good levels (though it is all self-reported, hopefully people don't fib about it but who knows?).

The other interesting thing is that just under a third of people aren't sure when things will be back to normal (whatever the heck that is now!). That percentage has increased and combined with the 12% of people who believe things will never be normal again makes for quite a horrible statistic. I know that currently I am in that percentage of "never be normal again" - but I do feel sad about it. I didn't realise so many people felt like I do and I don't want us to feel this way.

I'm working on it. I'm hoping that having my booster tomorrow will help me a little in terms of moving forwards. I definitely improved once husband had had his second jab, so I felt like the risk I potentially cause him had reduced.

Oh and is it wrong that I'm chuckling at JRM's comments about the Tories being more convivial and knowing each other so don't need to wear a mask. Heh. Conviviality and familiarity, those well known enemies of Covid


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## O2.0

Lurcherlad said:


> Tbf we all comment on (and criticise) lots of things.


This felt more like out of context criticism.

If a poster shares a cute photo of their dog in a thread about cute photos, that's not the time to mention "BTW your dog is overweight." It may be true, it may be unhealthy for that dog, but it doesn't need to be said just then. 
In the same way, a photo of a community doing good things and people coming together for a good cause isn't the time to have your own little mask crusade.

Should more people have been masked in that context? Probably. And totally fair to wonder that to yourself. But that's not what the post was about nor was it remotely related to what the post was about. We seem to be losing common courtesy when it comes to pandemic related things.


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## Happy Paws2

Well it seem as if it's one way for the government to cull the population, the more old people die the less money they have to pay out of pensions and care homes ect.... 

Just a thought....


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## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well it seem as if it's one way for the government to cull the population, the more old people die the less money they have to pay out of pensions and care homes ect....
> 
> Just a thought....


Or maybe young people are spreading it so they don't have the burden of paying for us and revenge for voting Brexit. . :Nailbiting


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## Jaf

Yes I'm sure government doesn't mind getting rid of the sick and disabled either. Of course any poor people get worse outcomes and sick and disabled people are often poorer.


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## MollySmith




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## £54etgfb6

Jaf said:


> Yes I'm sure government doesn't mind getting rid of the sick and disabled either. Of course any poor people get worse outcomes and sick and disabled people are often poorer.


I am of the opinion that the government do not care as much about people who do not benefit them. I do not want to derail the thread into aspects of politics not related to covid but I feel like it is evident in everything the government do. They keep the outcry to a manageable level and make decisions that benefit the privileged. Elderly individuals make up a large percentage of our population and yet they are continually forgotten about.


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## MollySmith

This is one of the most enlightening posts I have read, it dates to Jan 2021 but speaks about attitude and communication and how the public needed information.

It's by Full Fact who are completely independent of political allegiance and have carried out an epic amount of work in fact checking sources of information around Covid, Brexit, EU.... you name it.. to ensure there is a source of actual information. A bit like how Simple Politics whose posts I share, also check information.

https://fullfact.org/blog/2021/jan/fix-information-failures-or-risk-lives-full-fact-report-2021/

Specially I want to highlight this extract (from the above link) which though dated Jan 2021, reflects a lot of the cross parliament report published this month. That second paragraph highlights trust.

Broken trust feels like a big theme. If - going back to my past comment - the government persist in not leading from medical and scientific evidence (at least since vaccines came in), it surely creates a sense of distrust in factual knowledge - then I guess one can sort of see a breakdown in trust. In one camp people following the government in not trusting the science as that is the impression they seem to give (if you look under Full Fact's Coronavirus tab they have corrected Conversative Woman and Allison Pearson lately) and the other camp is people who distrust the government, when we should be together, and equally informed because we trust in those in charge regardless of social media.


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## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> This is one of the most enlightening posts I have read, it dates to Jan 2021 but speaks about attitude and communication and how the public needed information.
> 
> It's by Full Fact who are completely independent of political allegiance and have carried out an epic amount of work in fact checking sources of information around Covid, Brexit, EU.... you name it.. to ensure there is a source of actual information. A bit like how Simple Politics whose posts I share, also check information.
> 
> https://fullfact.org/blog/2021/jan/fix-information-failures-or-risk-lives-full-fact-report-2021/
> 
> Specially I want to highlight this extract (from the above link) which though dated Jan 2021, reflects a lot of the cross parliament report published this month. That second paragraph highlights trust.
> 
> Broken trust feels like a big theme. If - going back to my past comment - the government persist in not leading from medical and scientific evidence (at least since vaccines came in), it surely creates a sense of distrust in factual knowledge - then I guess one can sort of see a breakdown in trust. In one camp people following the government in not trusting the science as that is the impression they seem to give (if you look under Full Fact's Coronavirus tab they have corrected Conversative Woman and Allison Pearson lately) and the other camp is people who distrust the government, when we should be together, and equally informed because we trust in those in charge regardless of social media.
> 
> View attachment 478331


Grim reading but spot on.


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## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Grim reading but spot on.


it is but I think our Parliament in the U.K. is the monster that will eat itself. I don't know enough about psychology to even begin to unravel it but it's like we've said elsewhere, it's this constant political one upmanship that all parties indulge in - I don't think smaller ones do but certainly Tory, Labour and Lib Dem's - and when a crisis this awful and tragic occurs, nobody knows what to because the monster only knows how to lie and bully. In practice, Labour should have a field day and walk the next election but they're too busy infighting to gain any trust.

And I'm afraid we've seen how Boris has lied or circumvented the truth, and he's only one - it seems to be a job requirement - but as the Prime Minster it's shocking and unforgivable at any time but when so many are dying it's criminal. And it puts the good MPs like Jo Cox and David Amess at risk.


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## Happy Paws2

I see the R no. has risen to 1.0 / 1.2 didn't we go into lock down last time. Hopefully we wont, but BJ needs to do something NOW not later on.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I see the R no. has risen to 1.0 / 1.2 didn't we go into lock down last time. Hopefully we wont, but BJ needs to do something NOW not later on.


I thought the R number had been given to Matt Hancock as a leaving present.


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## Mrs Funkin

Hehe *splutter*


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## Blackadder

Happy Paws2 said:


> Hopefully we wont, but BJ needs to do something NOW not later on.


Just asking... what would you like him to do?


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## Happy Paws2

Blackadder said:


> Just asking... what would you like him to do?


for a start make wearing masks compulsory and bring back social distancing.


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## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> for a start make wearing masks compulsory and bring back social distancing.


Masks would also help with flu and colds that are going to make people ill this year. I think also encouraging those who can to work from home.


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## Psygon

Looks like some local health authorities are doing exactly that:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-extra-covid-measures-in-break-from-guidance

Not sure that people will necessarily listen to this type of advice when it's not government mandated. And if you are someone who lives in one of the areas will your employer be ok with you saying 'my director of public health says I should work from home'.


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## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> Masks would also help with flu and colds that are going to make people ill this year. I think also encouraging those who can to work from home.


Wearing a mask and not going out very much last winter I never had a cough or cold and normally I really suffer with them, so wearing a mask does work.

I really don't understand why they don't make wearing a mask mandatory in crowded places, I really feel as if they don't care how many people get covid.


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## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> Wearing a mask and not going out very much last winter I never had a cough or cold and normally I really suffer with them, so wearing a mask does work.
> 
> I really don't understand why they don't make wearing a mask mandatory in crowded places, I really feel as if they don't care how many people get covid.


Let's not forget the first plan was herd immunity.


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## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> Looks like some local health authorities are doing exactly that:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-extra-covid-measures-in-break-from-guidance
> 
> Not sure that people will necessarily listen to this type of advice when it's not government mandated. And if you are someone who lives in one of the areas will your employer be ok with you saying 'my director of public health says I should work from home'.


It's so dammed tragic that they feel they have to and shows how isolated our public health bodies and their employees are - as comes across in @MRS Funkin's accounts and others who work in our caring and nursing professions


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## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> Let's not forget the first plan was herd immunity.


:Banghead


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## StormyThai

I'm feeling very despondent with it all tbh
Honestly at this point it's obvious that most now don't care, think that it is over and we just have to go on (cos the deaths only effect the old init) or have outlandish theories!
Apparently there were no flu last year...none at all so that shows that covid is just man made and a way to control us.....


Why is it so hard for people to actually research the facts?
How did we get to a point in society when many couldn't give a toss about their fellow human, so long as their own family is alright then that is ok?
Politics should have nothing to do with a medical pandemic...


/rant
Sorry but after someone claiming that Flu didn't happen, or that this is one big hoax on the same post as others that have lost family members, I am left with a bitter taste in my mouth 
Wouldn't it be lovely if all governments could work together to pull off such a big hoax though...I mean just think about how much could be achieved if governments were actually interested in the welfare of it's people instead of what they can claw together for themselves!!!


-hides back under rock-


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## David C

One of the scientific advisors for the government has just been on the news and told people to act now if we want to avoid a Christmas lockdown again. He said to wear masks social distancing, work from home if you can, avoid public transport if you can and then he said don't wait around for the government to take action.
I guess he was hinting at is the government is a waste of time and are screwing it up again.


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## Boxer123

StormyThai said:


> I'm feeling very despondent with it all tbh
> Honestly at this point it's obvious that most now don't care, think that it is over and we just have to go on (cos the deaths only effect the old init) or have outlandish theories!
> Apparently there were no flu last year...none at all so that shows that covid is just man made and a way to control us.....
> 
> Why is it so hard for people to actually research the facts?
> How did we get to a point in society when many couldn't give a toss about their fellow human, so long as their own family is alright then that is ok?
> Politics should have nothing to do with a medical pandemic...
> 
> /rant
> Sorry but after someone claiming that Flu didn't happen, or that this is one big hoax on the same post as others that have lost family members, I am left with a bitter taste in my mouth
> Wouldn't it be lovely if all governments could work together to pull off such a big hoax though...I mean just think about how much could be achieved if governments were actually interested in the welfare of it's people instead of what they can claw together for themselves!!!
> 
> -hides back under rock-


People are also ignoring historical pandemics were they a hoax to ? It's just silly we were due a pandemic it does happen.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Is it true that compulsory mask wearing in Scotland and NI is making no difference to their rates of infection? I can totally see why life has to go on as normal but can't understand what the big deal is with the Government not wanting to implement at least part of their plan B by reintroducing mask wearing laws. However I have read that in those areas of the UK where masks are compulsory there is still increasing levels of infection but im not sure if that is true or if it there might be other reasons for it?


----------



## Happy Paws2

In France you have to wear a face mask, if not you don't you get a135 euro fined.


----------



## MollySmith

My question of the day is do we, as regulars in putting the world to rights - share a ‘convivial, fraternal spirit’ that means we can hang without risk of infection?


----------



## MollySmith

3dogs2cats said:


> Is it true that compulsory mask wearing in Scotland and NI is making no difference to their rates of infection? I can totally see why life has to go on as normal but can't understand what the big deal is with the Government not wanting to implement at least part of their plan B by reintroducing mask wearing laws. However I have read that in those areas of the UK where masks are compulsory there is still increasing levels of infection but im not sure if that is true or if it there might be other reasons for it?


I haven't seen any news or fact checking on this so I doubt it's true, mostly because volume of people in any location has some bearing and what they do. Mask wearing is only one area and I think both have open travel to and from England.

But yeah, agree. It hardly feels like it's difficult unless the fear is that they have to backtrack again and seen to have screwed up. All the other reasons I can think of feel criminal and murderous.


----------



## MollySmith

StormyThai said:


> I'm feeling very despondent with it all tbh
> Honestly at this point it's obvious that most now don't care, think that it is over and we just have to go on (cos the deaths only effect the old init) or have outlandish theories!
> Apparently there were no flu last year...none at all so that shows that covid is just man made and a way to control us.....
> 
> Why is it so hard for people to actually research the facts?
> How did we get to a point in society when many couldn't give a toss about their fellow human, so long as their own family is alright then that is ok?
> Politics should have nothing to do with a medical pandemic...
> 
> /rant
> Sorry but after someone claiming that Flu didn't happen, or that this is one big hoax on the same post as others that have lost family members, I am left with a bitter taste in my mouth
> Wouldn't it be lovely if all governments could work together to pull off such a big hoax though...I mean just think about how much could be achieved if governments were actually interested in the welfare of it's people instead of what they can claw together for themselves!!!
> 
> -hides back under rock-


come back from your rock! I agree with everything. Esp if global governments worked as one to solve this. Too right.


----------



## Blackadder

StormyThai said:


> How did we get to a point in society when many couldn't give a toss about their fellow human, so long as their own family is alright then that is ok?


Haven't we always been like that? Certainly in recent times it's been a "stuff you Jack" attitude as seen by the recent fuel "shortage", people filling their tanks (whether they needed to or not) with no thought given to nurses/doctors/firefighters etc being able to get to work.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Wearing a mask and not going out very much last winter I never had a cough or cold and normally I really suffer with them, so wearing a mask does work.
> 
> I really don't understand why they don't make wearing a mask mandatory in crowded places, I really feel as if they don't care how many people get covid.





Blackadder said:


> Haven't we always been like that? Certainly in recent times it's been a "stuff you Jack" attitude as seen by the recent fuel "shortage", people filling their tanks (whether they needed to or not) with no thought given to nurses/doctors/firefighters etc being able to get to work.


Yes , there are anti vaxers and anti maskers out there influencing people . 

There is a film clip of an anti vaxer here.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451874991604211718


----------



## £54etgfb6

3dogs2cats said:


> Is it true that compulsory mask wearing in Scotland and NI is making no difference to their rates of infection? I can totally see why life has to go on as normal but can't understand what the big deal is with the Government not wanting to implement at least part of their plan B by reintroducing mask wearing laws. However I have read that in those areas of the UK where masks are compulsory there is still increasing levels of infection but im not sure if that is true or if it there might be other reasons for it?


I can't speak about Northern Ireland but Scotland has a lower infection rate at the moment than England. I think we will have an increase in infection rate as winter progresses as Scotland is colder than other parts of the UK and that lowers immunity. We also had a huge spike at the beginning of September but I feel like that is due to the easing of restrictions (eg- opening nightclubs) and the influx of university students.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19667218.covid-rates-scotland-compare-rest-uk/
^ This article does state that Northern Ireland has the lowest infection rate at the moment.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

@StormyThai I think despondent is absolutely the right word to use. Certainly describes how I feel currently.

I went to get my Covid booster today (at the hospital, we have to go there) and they asked me for ID to go in as last weekend they had anti-vaxxers causing trouble and had to close the vaccination hub. This is volunteers manning the hub, being attacked, providing a service that hospital staff are attending in a hospital. Disgraceful.

I have no answers. I wish I did. More mask wearing in places like supermarkets if you are able would be a great start for me - not just in terms of Covid.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Blackadder said:


> Haven't we always been like that? Certainly in recent times it's been a "stuff you Jack" attitude as seen by the recent fuel "shortage", people filling their tanks (whether they needed to or not) with no thought given to nurses/doctors/firefighters etc being able to get to work.


More so with every passing year it seems


----------



## Happy Paws2

My booster isn't due to next month......
So I've decided, I'm not going out until I've have it, I'll have to chance that Sainsbury's has anything I order.


----------



## O2.0

StormyThai said:


> Honestly at this point it's obvious that most now don't care,


I'm one of those who doesn't care.
I know, it sounds terrible, and I don't mean I don't care about the loss of life, I absolutely do, it's devastating and awful. In March of 2020 I lost a dear, dear friend to breast cancer. Five days after her funeral we went on lockdown. Nothing has been the same since. Part of me is resentful, that the world made this huge deal out of all the covid deaths, but my friend's death didn't 'count' because it wasn't covid related. I know it's ridiculous but feelings don't always make sense.

I'm also fast losing the will to care about keeping 'you' (general you) safe wearing a mask if you can't be bothered to get vaccinated. At this point, there has been enough time to get vaccinated, plenty of vaccines to go around, and it could not be more convenient (here in the US) you make an appointment online, show up, no wait, easy peasy.

It feels like some of us did everything we were told to do and now we're being asked to do more because some couldn't be bothered to do what they were supposed to do. And the petulant child in me is like "no, I did my part, you didn't do yours, I'm not doing more to make up for your slack."

Not sharing any of this to say we shouldn't be taking precautions and masking and doing all the responsible things, just wanted to share why some of us may seem to not care anymore.


----------



## kimthecat

If China had admitted it had a problem and bought lockdown in quicker , it would have made a difference. WHO still arent sure if it spread from the cruel live animal market or escaped from a Lab despite investigations.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> My booster isn't due to next month......
> So I've decided, I'm not going out until I've have it, I'll have to chance that Sainsbury's has anything I order.


Mine is due at the end of the month. I'm still ordering from Asda and they still reserve my slot for me. I never really liked food shopping .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Mine is due at the end of the month. * I'm still ordering from Asda and they still reserve my slot for me*. I never really liked food shopping .


 Same here, Sainsbury's are doing the same for us.


----------



## DogLover1981

As far as COVID-19 being political, everything could be said to be related to politics in one way or another. Politics and culture are greatly intertwined and it almost hurts to say I have really poor opinion of American culture at this point. I have noticed, too, that during this pandemic my country tends to "export" much of its shenanigans across the world, especially in the era of the internet and 24/7 news. American culture has a highly individualistic, rebellious and confrontational streak to it. Some of that is because of the revolutionary war, IMO, and it's amazing how much history impacts everything.


----------



## DogLover1981

The longer term consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic are depressing to think about and it could be quite impactful depending on how it plays out. There could be a great number of children and young adults that grow up really hating one or both of their parents due to their refusal of their parents' to take measures to prevent serious sickness from COIVD-19, especially if there are any nasty long term effects from COVID-19. I've read about people refusing vaccines for themselves and their kids.


----------



## DogLover1981

O2.0 said:


> Seriously
> 
> Sometimes I wear a mask, sometimes I don't. In my head, my reasons make sense, I don't expect anyone else to understand, just not judge.
> 
> Someone shared a lovely photo of our community doing good things in a community page, and one person commented about how few people were wearing masks. How sad when you see a photo of good, caring things going on in your community and not only do you not see the good, you feel the need to make a negative comment on masks. That person could just have kept scrolling, but no, have to make a mask comment.


From what I've seen locally, I think we're in a messy in between stage of returning to normal. Sometimes I wear a mask, sometimes I don't. Generally, I don't see people commenting about it one way or the other in public, even on the net.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I totally get that @O2.0 - one of the things I am most thankful for is that my mum in law died before Covid arrived, or she would have died alone. I hate that there were so many services affected (here, certainly, I guess it was the same in the States?) and I hate that the backlog is so ridiculous now I'm not sure how it will ever be cleared. Obviously, in my field, we have had to just carry on as we are somewhat time constrained but when I think of all the diagnoses that haven't been made because of services being so decimated it makes me angry.

As I was wearing my mask today in a meeting full of vulnerable old folk, who weren't wearing masks, I did think, "Why am I wearing one?"...I really did. I kept it on though, even though part of me actually wanted to go "sod it"! I couldn't allow myself to though.

Can't type any more now, my arm is too sore from my Covid booster


----------



## Cleo38

O2.0 said:


> I'm one of those who doesn't care.
> I know, it sounds terrible, and I don't mean I don't care about the loss of life, I absolutely do, it's devastating and awful. In March of 2020 I lost a dear, dear friend to breast cancer. Five days after her funeral we went on lockdown. Nothing has been the same since. Part of me is resentful, that the world made this huge deal out of all the covid deaths, but my friend's death didn't 'count' because it wasn't covid related. I know it's ridiculous but feelings don't always make sense.
> 
> I'm also fast losing the will to care about keeping 'you' (general you) safe wearing a mask if you can't be bothered to get vaccinated. At this point, there has been enough time to get vaccinated, plenty of vaccines to go around, and it could not be more convenient (here in the US) you make an appointment online, show up, no wait, easy peasy.
> 
> It feels like some of us did everything we were told to do and now we're being asked to do more because some couldn't be bothered to do what they were supposed to do. And the petulant child in me is like "no, I did my part, you didn't do yours, I'm not doing more to make up for your slack."
> 
> Not sharing any of this to say we shouldn't be taking precautions and masking and doing all the responsible things, just wanted to share why some of us may seem to not care anymore.


So sorry about your friend. I am still so angry about Covid taking priority over other other illnesses & people being cast aside & forgotten about during the pandemic. And as for the recent rises in Covid cases I feel that it's all very well producing statistics but who are the people who are being affected? Are they vaccinated? If not why not?

Personally I take precautions but am getting on with my life & am not going through another lockdown again regardless of any rules.


----------



## O2.0

I donate to MSF (Doctors Without Borders) and want to volunteer for them one day. Today there was a notice about the situation in northern Syria. Less than 3% of the population vaccinated, not because they don't want to but because there is no availability of the vaccine nor medical personnel. They have no way of isolating infected patients, treating them, no oxygen, no PPE to keep medical personnel safe, 
We're so lucky to live where we do, where I can drive to the local CVS and get a drive-through covid test at zero cost to me. Or get vaccinated at no cost. Where merchants hand out masks for free as you enter their store. 
And yet people complain. Complain about their 'rights' about having to wear a mask, about not wearing a mask. We have it good by comparison.


----------



## DogLover1981

Related to my other posts, I think some of the tendencies of American culture are counterbalanced somewhat by the fact that people tend to be more quiet and aloof in New England. Well, at least, where I live in New Hampshire. I don't even know any of my neighbors for example and there's positives and definite negatives with that. It can make you rather lonely at times. Through all of this pandemic no one has commented in public about me wearing or not wearing a mask. I'm curious about what it's like where you live, @O2.0


----------



## O2.0

DogLover1981 said:


> Related to my other posts, I think some of the tendencies of American culture are counterbalanced somewhat by the fact that people tend to be more quiet and aloof in New England. Well, at least, where I live in New Hampshire. I don't even know any of my neighbors for example and there's positives and definite negatives with that. It can make you rather lonely at times. Through all of this pandemic no one has commented in public about me wearing or not wearing a mask. I'm curious about what it's like where you live, @O2.0


I actually haven't had any issues. When I wear a mask it's no big deal, when I don't it's not either. We still have some rules, some businesses require masks, others don't, public/school busses do... I just go with whatever the majority is doing generally. Except outside, I tend to stay maskless outside even if others are wearing one.
Social media is another story though! 
NH is not a very population dense area, nor is where I am even though it's a thousand miles away. I think people in more population dense cities like NY and Atlanta are more aggressive about stuff. 
The UK is WAY more population dense than either of us can imagine, so I get people having less patience with people not social distancing etc.


----------



## DogLover1981

O2.0 said:


> Social media is another story though!


That's interesting. I don't really see much of that on social media, it must depend on where you visit. I used to see lots of discussions and posts encouraging people to wear masks during the beginning of the pandemic in 2020 but at this point, I only see very sporadic discussions related to COVID-19, mostly related to the vaccines and such.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Husband was telling me as I was falling asleep last night that there are now “rumours” of a sudden implementation of Plan B. The old “drop a rumour” tactic was used about the original lockdown and the Christmas changes too, so I’m fully expecting it to happen.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The problem is that since all restrictions have been dropped some people think it's all over and don't need to take anymore precautions, well they are wrong it's far from over, if we carry on like this we'll never get it under control and be living with it for years. the vaccine is working to a point but people are still getting very ill and dying even after having the jab.

We really need BJ to take a stronger line or we'll be back where we started with the NHS under more pressure and hundreds more deaths.

I get the feeling BJ is putting money before the health of the nation,


----------



## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> Husband was telling me as I was falling asleep last night that there are now "rumours" of a sudden implementation of Plan B. The old "drop a rumour" tactic was used about the original lockdown and the Christmas changes too, so I'm fully expecting it to happen.


I really hope it's true.
How can BJ continue to ignore the advice of his scientific advisors, health staff?!!


----------



## SbanR

Hahahahaha!
Best place for BJ!:Hilarious


----------



## StormyThai

SbanR said:


> How can BJ continue to ignore the advice of his scientific advisors, health staff?!!


At least he has been consistently ignoring the advice from his own advisors...
His actions and dithering are one of the main causes of the British general public throwing their hands up...if the sodding leader of the country can't be arsed to make up his mind and can't be arsed to put a sodding mask on when in public then why should people listen?
Maybe if he had done what he is paid to do and put his foot down (instead of taking part in dodgy deal after dodgy deal to make his friends richer) when he was advised to restrict movement to stop the spread we would be in a much better place...
But no, he half arsed it as much as possible so we end up in this continuing cycle... and people will still make excuses so we will never learn.

It's quite sad really


----------



## MollySmith

SbanR said:


> Hahahahaha!
> Best place for BJ!:Hilarious
> View attachment 478373


Probably send him back as space junk.


----------



## MollySmith

StormyThai said:


> At least he has been consistently ignoring the advice from his own advisors...
> His actions and dithering are one of the main causes of the British general public throwing their hands up...if the sodding leader of the country can't be arsed to make up his mind and can't be arsed to put a sodding mask on when in public then why should people listen?
> Maybe if he had done what he is paid to do and put his foot down (instead of taking part in dodgy deal after dodgy deal to make his friends richer) when he was advised to restrict movement to stop the spread we would be in a much better place...
> But no, he half arsed it as much as possible so we end up in this continuing cycle... and people will still make excuses so we will never learn.
> 
> It's quite sad really


True, consistently crap. At least we can predict.

sometime about end of next week, post Halloween because his deluded wife has organised a Halloween bash for offspring, Boris will tell us we're all naughty, it's our fault and bring in plan B (promoted from plan W in a bid to avoid the missing C-V). Whilst claiming back R which has been involved in a torrid affair with Matt Hancock. Meanwhile the Torygraph will start to publish articles on NHS investment plans later hailed by the Daily Wail as Dr Boris in bid to Carry On the NHS (looking more like Sid James than ever). And around Feb we'll find out it was one of his mates from the Spectator/Tory Party Donor/offshore dealing/cousin of Trump or Farage who gave the money. But is okay, it's Boris, he's harmless. Was lovely on Have I Got News For You......


----------



## Blackadder

Happy Paws2 said:


> The problem is that since all restrictions have been dropped some people think it's all over and don't need to take anymore precautions, well they are wrong it's far from over, if we carry on like this we'll never get it under control and be living with it for years. the vaccine is working to a point but people are still getting very ill and dying even after having the jab.


We won't ever control it, we can't! The whole world has been trying for nearly 2 years but it's still here & will be for years to come.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

That @MollySmith is brilliant. Just brilliant.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

As a slight side issue I wanted to punch the telly yesterday when Andrea Loathesome was on talking about the important investment from babyhood in the new "family hubs".

Errrm, fairly sure they already exist as Sure Start Children's Centres. Oh no. Wait. You closed a bunch of them a few years back. In fact 1300 of them were closed from 2010 - 2019.

FFS.

I guess they are announcing some more high profile budget measures this week in the attempt to hide Covid news - like Plan B.


----------



## willa

I was watching the MP’s in Parliament on Sky News & barely any were wearing a mask including BJ.

He hasn’t taken it seriously from the very start of this Pandemic. 
You’d think with him having been being very unwell with Covid, he’d take it seriously


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I get the feeling BJ is putting money before the health of the nation,


How do you look after the nations health without money?

This is sounding more and more like a Tory bashing thread.

Anyone got any ideas about how to manage covid that the whole of the world hasn't thought of yet?

You all seem to want to be treated like children, rather than take responsibility for yourselves! By the way, it's those ruddy kids that are doing most of the spreading now, and still parents don't seem to think they have to control the little brats. 
Such entitlement, while risking lives..........................

I know it's tough, tougher for some, but we can't hide from it any longer


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> How do you look after the nations health without money?
> 
> T*his is sounding more and more like a Tory bashing thread.*
> 
> Anyone got any ideas about how to manage covid that the whole of the world hasn't thought of yet?
> 
> You all seem to want to be treated like children, rather than take responsibility for yourselves! By the way, it's those ruddy kids that are doing most of the spreading now, and still parents don't seem to think they have to control the little brats.
> Such entitlement, while risking lives..........................
> 
> I know it's tough, tougher for some, but we can't hide from it any longer


No it's not, but I think he is are putting business before health at the moment.


----------



## Blackadder

Happy Paws2 said:


> No it's not, but I think he is are putting business before health at the moment.


I'm no Boris fan, far from it but he has to balance that very thing. While health is of great importance, so is business/the economy... one can't be funded without the other.

As someone once said "You don't make a nations health better by making it poorer". Even something so simple as social distancing has a huge damaging impact on the hospitality industry (big contributors to the Gov coffers)


----------



## StormyThai

rona said:


> This is sounding more and more like a Tory bashing thread.


I'm not bashing the party as a whole in this instance...BJ needs to be held accountable for all those important meetings that he missed, and consistently ignoring advice from his expert advisors...and anyone else that profited off a medical crisis (PPE contracts anyone?)

My response would have been the same no matter what party he was leading...as the Prime minister it is his job, it is what he was voted in for...to lead the country!
Instead he dithered and doodled, ignoring the experts and even going as far as to shake peoples hands and tell people that it was nothing to worry about until he could no longer ignore it.
He was given warnings, after warnings in the initial stages yet he continued to allow people to travel in and out of the country and continued to blame the public for the increase in infection rates.

When he has made good decisions based on science and followed the advice from the experts I have been the first to say well done...the problem is that those occasions have been few and far between during this pandemic.

So no, I am not Tory bashing...Politics should not have been a consideration during the pandemic, and that goes for all parties.


----------



## O2.0

Blackadder said:


> We won't ever control it, we can't! The whole world has been trying for nearly 2 years but it's still here & will be for years to come.


This. Even in countries where they have done everything "right" they still have issues. 
We have to learn to live with covid. 
People need to get vaccinated, vaccines need to be made readily available to everyone, not just rich western nations. 
We need to come up with viable cures/treatments for those who do get sick.
We need to encourage healthy behaviors, not just masking and vaccinating, but maintaining a healthy weight, not smoking, vitamin D exposure and supplementation...


----------



## Cleo38

Blackadder said:


> I'm no Boris fan, far from it but he has to balance that very thing. While health is of great importance, so is business/the economy... one can't be funded without the other.
> 
> As someone once said "You don't make a nations health better by making it poorer". Even something so simple as social distancing has a huge damaging impact on the hospitality industry (big contributors to the Gov coffers)


Agree, it's impossible to separate the economy & health. So many people are now suffering physically & mentally through money worries, fear of losing their job, their business, etc. I honestly don't think people could cope with yet more restrictions on their lives anymore so we have to think of new measures.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Blackadder said:


> I'm no Boris fan, far from it but he has to balance that very thing. While health is of great importance, so is business/the economy... one can't be funded without the other.
> 
> As someone once said "*You don't make a nations health better by making it poorer".* Even something so simple as social distancing has a huge damaging impact on the hospitality industry (big contributors to the Gov coffers)


You can't by making the rich, richer either.


----------



## O2.0

Happy Paws2 said:


> You can't by making the rich, richer either.


No but the restrictions don't affect the rich. Well, not here at least. 
Here it has been small businesses, the mom and pop stores that have been decimated by lockdowns and restrictions. 
Closing schools has been so destructive too. Not just to the parents who had to lose wages to stay home or find childcare options, but to the children who need the social interactions and stability of school. MH in school aged children is at an all-time low and suicide rates have skyrocketed since we shut down schools.

That's not to say political decisions aren't dictated by the richer donors and those with influence, they are.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> How do you look after the nations health without money?
> 
> This is sounding more and more like a Tory bashing thread.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas about how to manage covid that the whole of the world hasn't thought of yet?
> 
> You all seem to want to be treated like children, rather than take responsibility for yourselves! By the way, it's those ruddy kids that are doing most of the spreading now, and still parents don't seem to think they have to control the little brats.
> Such entitlement, while risking lives..........................
> 
> I know it's tough, tougher for some, but we can't hide from it any longer


Yeah I'm bashing a bit but you'd expect that from me and I'd expect this post from you but it's vaguely in jest because god knows it's too tragic otherwise.

Nevertheless, the Tories are the party in charge and have consistently put politics first whilst in their lengthy time in charge over successive elections and coalitions, devalued the NHS to the point it couldn't ever cope and hardly compelling staff to stay (as seen by awarding MPs a pay rise and scant rewards to nursing staff whilst encoring us to clapp....). If it was Lab or Lib Dems then they'd be getting a kick up the arse too.

Had the government attended and engaged with the pandemic at the start (see cross parliament report and the Full Fact report) and shared information and communicated better (both reports evidence this) we'd be in a better state. But if the opposition parties had more seats and were themselves better organised then the government would have been accountable earlier.

I don't have any answers because we don't have enough information (again as evidenced in the reports) and it's the role of parliament to take the information supplied by those who gather it from science and medicine, distil it, make it lawful and safe lives without ego or bribery which is so far all I can see.

And yes, taking very good responsibility for myself, but it's the government who have told parents kids must be in school even though it's one of the root causes and told us mask wearing is optional etc. What you'll find is that most contributors here are taking full responsibility by ignoring Boris and continuing to follow pre-July advice.

Edited to add that I maybe said at the start but certainly recently that the solutions may have been found in a cross parliamentary way so as to remove manifesto bias and alliances. I find it wholly frustrating that cross parties report after the event when it's all too dammed late because clearly the lessons learned aren't being acted on. The report being out for some weeks and no plan B. I had read it before the health minister...


----------



## Mrs Funkin

It's the same here @O2.0 small businesses have had a nightmare. I always think of Soho in London, as husband used to work there. Tonnes of little independent coffee and sandwich shops, all of whom have really been through the mill. Yes, there's been furlough and that's been enough for some to survive but not all. People needing to WFH put paid to many businesses, of that I am sure. Some of us have tried to support local businesses rather than the big supermarkets - but certainly in my village the small businesses have been largely deserted by these new customers that they so kindly stepped up to help. Those who used to shop there still do but I was hoping at least some new customers would have stayed with them.

I think that there will naturally be lots of Tory bashing - as they are the party in power. If Labour were in, they would be being slated. Now Labour have finally come out and said they want Plan B implemented, which I think is too late (as seems to be usual with this particular fence sitting opposition). I personally feel there should have been more specialist collaborative working, the government should have followed medical expert advice sooner. I am however onboard with Plan B implementation - as you might expect - but I also know that I am in the "lucky" position of working in the hospital and my husband has WFH for well over ten years anyway and we are both doubly vaccinated. So Plan B wouldn't affect me in any way whatsoever except I might actually feel safer and like I wanted to go out and about a bit more and so put some more money into the economy.

Would that there were an easy way of encouraging good behaviours like healthy weight, Vit D exposure, keeping fit. In this country looking at the obesity rates, that certainly is a losing battle. Sometimes in my job I have to have quite tough conversations with women - which at the moment are frequently including discussions about why they are declining vaccination for Covid. I am having to go through risk factors like obesity and pre-existing medical conditions and you'd honestly think some people had never heard that if you are obese with diabetes or asthma that you have a greater risk of becoming seriously ill from Covid - and that's before pregnancy. Have people just had their heads in the sand? I cannot make anyone have a vaccination but I am still stunned at the levels of people declining. Even when the figures came out from UKOSS and Mbrace about the numbers of unvaccinated pregnant women being affected, even THAT didn't seem to hit hard enough. If the pregnant woman is choosing not to be vaccinated, many times their partner hasn't been either. What's the answer? Maybe the only thing that will encourage younger people to be vaccinated is the Covid passport thing whereby you can't go to a club/gig unless you are double vaccinated. Maybe France had kind of the right idea by saying you couldn't go into any bar/restaurant without being vaccinated? It certainly encouraged many to get vaccinated. Some will say it's removing their freedom of choice. Well, if they choose to go to a nightclub, the choice is to be jabbed and go, or choose not. I have no choice but be surrounded by people who are not vaccinated through my working life which I have no control over, so as I said earlier I have chosen to remove myself from social situations to avoid that very issue. I'd like to be able to go to places and feel safer about going - and this may help that and I suspect many people feel that way.

I'm sure I was trying to make a point but I've forgotten what it was, sorry...I will stop now.


----------



## willa

I’m watching something about Lockdown 1.

To quote BJ in a press conference, “ I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were a few Coronavirus patients, and I shook hands with everybody “

Shambles


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> It's the same here @O2.0 small businesses have had a nightmare. I always think of Soho in London, as husband used to work there. Tonnes of little independent coffee and sandwich shops, all of whom have really been through the mill. Yes, there's been furlough and that's been enough for some to survive but not all. People needing to WFH put paid to many businesses, of that I am sure. Some of us have tried to support local businesses rather than the big supermarkets - but certainly in my village the small businesses have been largely deserted by these new customers that they so kindly stepped up to help. Those who used to shop there still do but I was hoping at least some new customers would have stayed with them.
> 
> I think that there will naturally be lots of Tory bashing - as they are the party in power. If Labour were in, they would be being slated. Now Labour have finally come out and said they want Plan B implemented, which I think is too late (as seems to be usual with this particular fence sitting opposition). I personally feel there should have been more specialist collaborative working, the government should have followed medical expert advice sooner. I am however onboard with Plan B implementation - as you might expect - but I also know that I am in the "lucky" position of working in the hospital and my husband has WFH for well over ten years anyway and we are both doubly vaccinated. So Plan B wouldn't affect me in any way whatsoever except I might actually feel safer and like I wanted to go out and about a bit more and so put some more money into the economy.
> 
> Would that there were an easy way of encouraging good behaviours like healthy weight, Vit D exposure, keeping fit. In this country looking at the obesity rates, that certainly is a losing battle. Sometimes in my job I have to have quite tough conversations with women - which at the moment are frequently including discussions about why they are declining vaccination for Covid. I am having to go through risk factors like obesity and pre-existing medical conditions and you'd honestly think some people had never heard that if you are obese with diabetes or asthma that you have a greater risk of becoming seriously ill from Covid - and that's before pregnancy. Have people just had their heads in the sand? I cannot make anyone have a vaccination but I am still stunned at the levels of people declining. Even when the figures came out from UKOSS and Mbrace about the numbers of unvaccinated pregnant women being affected, even THAT didn't seem to hit hard enough. If the pregnant woman is choosing not to be vaccinated, many times their partner hasn't been either. What's the answer? Maybe the only thing that will encourage younger people to be vaccinated is the Covid passport thing whereby you can't go to a club/gig unless you are double vaccinated. Maybe France had kind of the right idea by saying you couldn't go into any bar/restaurant without being vaccinated? It certainly encouraged many to get vaccinated. Some will say it's removing their freedom of choice. Well, if they choose to go to a nightclub, the choice is to be jabbed and go, or choose not. I have no choice but be surrounded by people who are not vaccinated through my working life which I have no control over, so as I said earlier I have chosen to remove myself from social situations to avoid that very issue. I'd like to be able to go to places and feel safer about going - and this may help that and I suspect many people feel that way.
> 
> I'm sure I was trying to make a point but I've forgotten what it was, sorry...I will stop now.


My feelings is that the small businesses (who I used before, during and now as I'm a small biz myself) would have stood a better chance of survival had the government acted in a responsible manner at the start. We've come all this way and there is a sense of being held to account maybe. That we all should have done better but had limited access to the truths. I've had no financial support, one of the 5m business owners who were not eligible for help, though I am running a biz and had to take on a long term contract which almost broke me as I wasn't looking after my mental health and working way way over a 50 hour week at one point to pay bills.

it feels like we are in an Orwellian nightmare of distrust - from anti-vax to people like me - I'm aware I'm highly cycincal of number 10 and wish I was not! And I've heard a lot about the vaccine and fertility in my community as you can imagine but most have recognised that it is important to be vaxed and all we can do is drum home the message.

In some respects I feel sorrow for the government as it came so hard on the heels of Brexit but as both proved, they had already broken trust, were working with a divided country and failed to regain that trust or rebuild it and social media 'experts' had a field day, and the platforms didn't help by not cutting off incorrect information. It's still out there, all manner of z-listers and Daily Wail journalists reporting incorrect info. We still are experiencing that distrust and it should have been resolved to a point - all parties included in this.

on the plus side lost 3 stone - some was stress - the rest was being terrified I'd catch it and dying as my immune system is pants - the reason I can't stay pregnant

Huge hugs to you, I think you're remarkably astute and clear in your posts given the circumstances.


----------



## lullabydream

Mrs Funkin said:


> It's the same here @O2.0 small businesses have had a nightmare. I always think of Soho in London, as husband used to work there. Tonnes of little independent coffee and sandwich shops, all of whom have really been through the mill. Yes, there's been furlough and that's been enough for some to survive but not all. People needing to WFH put paid to many businesses, of that I am sure. Some of us have tried to support local businesses rather than the big supermarkets - but certainly in my village the small businesses have been largely deserted by these new customers that they so kindly stepped up to help. Those who used to shop there still do but I was hoping at least some new customers would have stayed with them.
> 
> I think that there will naturally be lots of Tory bashing - as they are the party in power. If Labour were in, they would be being slated. Now Labour have finally come out and said they want Plan B implemented, which I think is too late (as seems to be usual with this particular fence sitting opposition). I personally feel there should have been more specialist collaborative working, the government should have followed medical expert advice sooner. I am however onboard with Plan B implementation - as you might expect - but I also know that I am in the "lucky" position of working in the hospital and my husband has WFH for well over ten years anyway and we are both doubly vaccinated. So Plan B wouldn't affect me in any way whatsoever except I might actually feel safer and like I wanted to go out and about a bit more and so put some more money into the economy.
> 
> Would that there were an easy way of encouraging good behaviours like healthy weight, Vit D exposure, keeping fit. In this country looking at the obesity rates, that certainly is a losing battle. Sometimes in my job I have to have quite tough conversations with women - which at the moment are frequently including discussions about why they are declining vaccination for Covid. I am having to go through risk factors like obesity and pre-existing medical conditions and you'd honestly think some people had never heard that if you are obese with diabetes or asthma that you have a greater risk of becoming seriously ill from Covid - and that's before pregnancy. Have people just had their heads in the sand? I cannot make anyone have a vaccination but I am still stunned at the levels of people declining. Even when the figures came out from UKOSS and Mbrace about the numbers of unvaccinated pregnant women being affected, even THAT didn't seem to hit hard enough. If the pregnant woman is choosing not to be vaccinated, many times their partner hasn't been either. What's the answer? Maybe the only thing that will encourage younger people to be vaccinated is the Covid passport thing whereby you can't go to a club/gig unless you are double vaccinated. Maybe France had kind of the right idea by saying you couldn't go into any bar/restaurant without being vaccinated? It certainly encouraged many to get vaccinated. Some will say it's removing their freedom of choice. Well, if they choose to go to a nightclub, the choice is to be jabbed and go, or choose not. I have no choice but be surrounded by people who are not vaccinated through my working life which I have no control over, so as I said earlier I have chosen to remove myself from social situations to avoid that very issue. I'd like to be able to go to places and feel safer about going - and this may help that and I suspect many people feel that way.
> 
> I'm sure I was trying to make a point but I've forgotten what it was, sorry...I will stop now.


Ooo am so with you on vaccinations. Can say I have cognitive dissonance over it. I get some people can't have the vaccine for medical reasons but honestly if you can why aren't you and don't even start me on footballers who are blooming role models


----------



## rona

willa said:


> I'm watching something about Lockdown 1.
> 
> To quote BJ in a press conference, " I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were a few Coronavirus patients, and I shook hands with everybody "
> 
> Shambles


When Diana did it too "plague" victims, she was hailed a heroine!



lullabydream said:


> Ooo am so with you on vaccinations. Can say I have cognitive dissonance over it. I get some people can't have the vaccine for medical reasons but honestly if you can why aren't you and don't even start me on footballers who are blooming role models


Fear, my sister is fearful


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> When Diana did it too "plague" victims, she was hailed a heroine!
> 
> Fear, my sister is fearful


The only scenario I can recall is HIV patients and it was an effort to show one could still touch someone with it and not being infected as there was a whole social hate campaign against people who suffered from it including children. HIV sufferers were seen as passing infection by touch which was misinformation, leading to stigma and judgement.

What she did was correct based on science and medicine; what Boris did was incorrect based on science and medicine unless you have another 'plague' in mind. HIV is not a plague.

Edited to say @Jobeth has posted below.


----------



## lullabydream

rona said:


> Fear, my sister is fearful


 I actually get the fearfullness. I remember when flu jabs came out as mainstay. My Gran's friend who we kept in touch with was scared. I totally get that, but with the younger generation who the majority will have been taught the pros and cons of vaccines and the pros being more than cons, I really don't get. The excuses I have heard is,too busy on the day(s), that type of excuse.


----------



## Jobeth

MollySmith said:


> The only scenario I can recall is HIV patients and it was an effort to show one could still touch someone with it and not being infected as there was a whole social hate campaign against people who suffered from it including children. HIV sufferers were seen as passing infection by touch which was misinformation, leading to stigma and judgement.


She was patron of the leprosy mission and wanted to show that you couldn't catch it through touch. I lived where there was leprosy. It did mean that I was ok with shaking hands with someone that had it. I still struggled with the thought that I could catch it and had to wash my hands afterwards. Sometimes no matter what the science says there is still some doubt you just can't overcome.


----------



## MollySmith

Jobeth said:


> She was patron of the leprosy mission and wanted to show that you couldn't catch it through touch. I lived where there was leprosy. It did mean that I was ok with shaking hands with someone that had it. I still struggled with the thought that I could catch it and had to wash my hands afterwards. Sometimes no matter what the science says there is still some doubt you just can't overcome.


ah thank you. I wasn't aware of that.


----------



## HarlequinCat

I'd say, maybe the gov didn't go the best route. But I think it's up to the individual to be accountable for themselves. We wore masks when the gov said it wasn't needed, and avoided busy places in the early days. We didn't touch money and all that. It takes common sense to realise if something spreads through coughs and sneezes like colds to keep surfaces clean etc.

With this Plan B, I hope they don't bring in covid passports, it takes away people's choice if the want to go places. It does nothing anyway. You can be jabbed but be asymptomatic and still pass it on even though you have a passport.
I know in Italy and another country there are huge protests about it because people will lose their jobs without a passport


----------



## MollySmith

Dr Rachel Clarke on Twitter, I defer to her experience and expertise, none of this is very difficult, well I already do it and fortunately can.


----------



## £54etgfb6

willa said:


> I'm watching something about Lockdown 1.
> 
> To quote BJ in a press conference, " I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were a few Coronavirus patients, and I shook hands with everybody "
> 
> Shambles


It's almost as if he entirely ignored all of the evidence stating that covid-19 was transmitted through droplets (now confirmed to be airborne). It's almost as if he was so consumed by arrogance that he thought he didn't need to take on the advice of the research scientists. In the section you quoted I really wonder what his intentions were by saying that- to come across as impressive? That Britain will not fall against anything?  The way that the government have professionals who have dedicated their lives to science showing evidence and saying the same earnings and then the gov go and ignore them is mind boggling to me.


----------



## £54etgfb6

HarlequinCat said:


> You can be jabbed but be asymptomatic and still pass it on even though you have a passport.


You could but if vaccine passports were in place then everyone else you'd be mingling with would be vaccinated and therefore everyone would have a decreased risk of contracting covid (if there was one person who was asymptomatic but had covid). If one person did contract it then they'd have a significantly lower risk of serious health complications or death. We have them in Scotland alongside mandatory PCR testing for some events.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> You could but if vaccine passports were in place then everyone else you'd be mingling with would be vaccinated and therefore everyone would have a decreased risk of contracting covid (if there was one person who was asymptomatic but had covid). If one person did contract it then they'd have a significantly lower risk of serious health complications or death. We have them in Scotland alongside mandatory PCR testing for some events.


i agree but I'm suspicious of the data collection. Dammit! See distrust but I don't put it past our lot to sell my data to some mate of a mate who is setting up Trump's new social media thing. But yes, the practice is right and it's good to hear from someone who has learnt to live with them. Has it changed how you go out or not (if you chose to of course!)?


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> i agree but I'm suspicious of the data collection. Dammit! See distrust but I don't put it past our lot to sell my data to some mate of a mate who is setting up Trump's new social media thing. But yes, the practice is right and it's good to hear from someone who has learnt to live with them. Has it changed how you go out or not (if you chose to of course!)?


I've never been required to show one as I don't have time to do anything other than study! The data collection is an issue but I feel like data collection is so pervasive I honestly do not even notice it anymore. Maybe it's because I was brought up with the internet. I am admittedly not educated enough to give an informed opinion on the topic. I absolutely forbid any alexa/google home/etc entering my house but I use social media sites which have been exposed for selling data for uses out with advertising. When it comes to covid I can personally put my grievances over potential data collection aside as I full heartedly believe the vaccine passports are beneficial to the health of others.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I see this morning the headlines that some scientists have now modelled a prediction of a massive drop in Covid cases, negating the need for the implementation of Plan B. They are saying it will be down to 5000 cases a day at Christmas.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Mrs Funkin said:


> I see this morning the headlines that some scientists have now modelled a prediction of a massive drop in Covid cases, negating the need for the implementation of Plan B. They are saying it will be down to 5000 cases a day at Christmas.


I'd like to think that was right, but how things are going I doubt it.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

According to this morning’s news the booster plan is going to see cases start to decline in November following in line with Israel who are slightly ahead of us.
Also the 6 month gap after second dose will be more effective than reducing it to 5months from a scientific point of view.


----------



## MilleD

David C said:


> One of the scientific advisors for the government has just been on the news and told people to act now if we want to avoid a Christmas lockdown again. He said to wear masks social distancing, work from home if you can, avoid public transport if you can and then he said don't wait around for the government to take action.
> I guess he was hinting at is the government is a waste of time and are screwing it up again.


But this is all still the advice, but the selfishness of the general public is staggering.

It really shouldn't need to be mandated for people to do the right thing by others.


----------



## MilleD

Mrs Funkin said:


> As a slight side issue I wanted to punch the telly yesterday when Andrea Loathesome was on talking about the important investment from babyhood in the new "family hubs".
> 
> Errrm, fairly sure they already exist as Sure Start Children's Centres. Oh no. Wait. You closed a bunch of them a few years back. In fact 1300 of them were closed from 2010 - 2019.
> 
> FFS.


I work in public finance - children's services and seeing the dwindling funding for areas like Sure Start and youth & community has been depressing to say the least.


----------



## David C

MilleD said:


> But this is all still the advice, but the selfishness of the general public is staggering.
> 
> It really shouldn't need to be mandated for people to do the right thing by others.


You right it shouldn't need to be mandated but in general the British public are selfish and don't give a toss about anyone but themselves. I'd be happy for the government to hand out £100fines for people ignoring it as well.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I've never been required to show one as I don't have time to do anything other than study! The data collection is an issue but I feel like data collection is so pervasive I honestly do not even notice it anymore. Maybe it's because I was brought up with the internet. I am admittedly not educated enough to give an informed opinion on the topic. I absolutely forbid any alexa/google home/etc entering my house but I use social media sites which have been exposed for selling data for uses out with advertising. When it comes to covid I can personally put my grievances over potential data collection aside as I full heartedly believe the vaccine passports are beneficial to the health of others.


Oh gosh, yes you're studying aren't you, I hope that's going okay?

I'm much the same as you - no Alexa etc here but I do use social media as wisely as I can. Yes, I can see your point, sometimes we have to set aside some of our worries in order to benefited the greater cause.


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> I see this morning the headlines that some scientists have now modelled a prediction of a massive drop in Covid cases, negating the need for the implementation of Plan B. They are saying it will be down to 5000 cases a day at Christmas.


It's kind of concerned that 5k a day is okay isn't it? Ah well, better than where we are now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Mrs Funkin said:


> I see this morning the headlines that some scientists have now modelled a prediction of a massive drop in Covid cases, negating the need for the implementation of Plan B. They are saying it will be down to 5000 cases a day at Christmas.


and how many deaths I wonder, or don't they count.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> How do you look after the nations health without money?
> 
> This is sounding more and more like a Tory bashing thread.


They are the party in power, and they are flunking the basics. If were any of the other parties, we'd be roasting them. Personally I think the oppositon are missing a trick by not turning up Parliament full masked and social distancing as much as possible.



rona said:


> Anyone got any ideas about how to manage covid that the whole of the world hasn't thought of yet?


The thing is, though, no-one is asking for anything that isn't already an available option and easy to implement. Mandatory masks in public spaces/on public transport, working from home where possible, and the return of social distancing isn't exactly rocket science, is it? And it's the doctors who are asking for this to be implemented - they should know about these things.

It will also help control the levels of flu and other common winter infections conditions, as evidenced by the extremely low levels of flu cases last year.

And if we do these things now, we might actually avoid more lockdowns and the damage they cause to both mental health and the economy.



rona said:


> You all seem to want to be treated like children, rather than take responsibility for yourselves! By the way, it's those ruddy kids that are doing most of the spreading now, and still parents don't seem to think they have to control the little brats.
> Such entitlement, while risking lives..........................
> 
> I know it's tough, tougher for some, but we can't hide from it any longer


Which is WHY we need the people in power to lead by example, not make excuses...


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> It's kind of concerned that 5k a day is okay isn't it? Ah well, better than where we are now.


 5k a day is acceptable for the whole of England, you cannot eradicate covid. It's silly to think you can. You need to let it mutate and grow weaker, that's the only way the serious cases will ease.


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> 5k a day is acceptable for the whole of England, you cannot eradicate covid. It's silly to think you can. You need to let it mutate and grow weaker, that's the only way the serious cases will ease.


My error, I misread that completely - you're absolutely right. As is @Mrs Funkin


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Oh gosh, yes you're studying aren't you, I hope that's going okay?
> 
> I'm much the same as you - no Alexa etc here but I do use social media as wisely as I can. Yes, I can see your point, sometimes we have to set aside some of our worries in order to benefited the greater cause.


I am in my 4th and final year so things are busy, to say the least! I am coping so far though thank you


----------



## Mrs Funkin

MollySmith said:


> My error, I misread that completely - you're absolutely right. As is @Mrs Funkin


I didn't say it was okay, I just said it was the number that had been modelled. I'll definitely take it compared to 40k a day though! Covid in't going to disappear, much as we wish it would **

** Do I get extra points for belonging to the Ministry for Stating the Blinking Obvious


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> My error, I misread that completely - you're absolutely right. As is @Mrs Funkin


I just find it impossible to eradicate covid altogether. And there are people who have totally put their lives on hold, too worried to go out because of all the doom and gloom pumped out by the media. Their mental health totally affected, and it angers me. Even when masks were mandatory and cases were low.

I know I'm a minority on here, but you have to balance being careful and taking care of yourself and the people you mix with. While also being as normal as you can, some sort of normality needs to come back now. Everyone is fighting about who is right and wrong. And to be honest this whole thing is tiring


----------



## Mrs Funkin

@HarlequinCat I'm one of those who has barely been out. Heck, we had only about our fifth takeaway in Covid (i.e. since March last year) this weekend. I've been into a pub and sat inside once since March 2020 (that was only about a month ago) and outside a pub fewer than ten times. We do see friends but generally in a group of just four of us.

I keep going around in circles with it all. I asked husband last night about how I was going to start to feel more normal, when was I going to want to do things like the annual dinner dance that we would normally go to He thinks maybe after Winter is over and we've got through to Spring with work I'll feel better. So that's what I'm aiming for  I do blame how I feel on the fact that I have to be in a protective bubble at work though - although many other NHS workers don't feel like I do and lots of my colleagues are happily going out and about and doing stuff.

I dunno. I think I currently just have to accept it and then try to reassess in Springtime


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> I just find it impossible to eradicate covid altogether. And there are people who have totally put their lives on hold, too worried to go out because of all the doom and gloom pumped out by the media. Their mental health totally affected, and it angers me. Even when masks were mandatory and cases were low.
> 
> I know I'm a minority on here, but you have to balance being careful and taking care of yourself and the people you mix with. While also being as normal as you can, some sort of normality needs to come back now. Everyone is fighting about who is right and wrong. And to be honest this whole thing is tiring


What I'm finding is a huge disparity. I'm getting invites to do this and that, and then the worry if I ought to go, takes over a little - even though my note to all, including myself, is to live within ones tolerances. I was shortlisted for an award recently and didn't attend the event as the stats were high and one night out plus train trip versus trying to manage my business and put my health at risk wasn't worth it but this week I am going to an art workshop with four others, so it's finding that mid-ground. Prior to July, it did help to have the government guidance as clarity to the more enthusiastic folk which I lack a little now. But I do see your point, we have to live with it but some folk are throwing caution to the wind and it's like it's never happened but they aren't people I want to mix with!



Mrs Funkin said:


> @HarlequinCat I'm one of those who has barely been out. Heck, we had only about our fifth takeaway in Covid (i.e. since March last year) this weekend. I've been into a pub and sat inside once since March 2020 (that was only about a month ago) and outside a pub fewer than ten times. We do see friends but generally in a group of just four of us.
> 
> I keep going around in circles with it all. I asked husband last night about how I was going to start to feel more normal, when was I going to want to do things like the annual dinner dance that we would normally go to He thinks maybe after Winter is over and we've got through to Spring with work I'll feel better. So that's what I'm aiming for  I do blame how I feel on the fact that I have to be in a protective bubble at work though - although many other NHS workers don't feel like I do and lots of my colleagues are happily going out and about and doing stuff.
> 
> I dunno. I think I currently just have to accept it and then try to reassess in Springtime


Much the same as you. I have been to one pub since March 2020 and that was earlier this month in the garden. We don't do takeaways much so that's not really measurable for us but any visits are outside and I'm pretty much bubbling as I was vulnerable and so is my husband due to his age though he's very fit and healthy. We did go away of course but I'm hugely aware that this highlighted my mental health which I thought was okay. Mostly it is, for me I've felt like I've been in worse places in my head but maybe I'd underestimated it. I certainly am avoiding any parties and like you, may be more adventurous in spring when I can meet outside. But you're not alone in going around in circle and I am sure that, in your work, you've seen all good reasons to be cautious.


----------



## Jobeth

HarlequinCat said:


> I just find it impossible to eradicate covid altogether. And there are people who have totally put their lives on hold, too worried to go out because of all the doom and gloom pumped out by the media. Their mental health totally affected, and it angers me. Even when masks were mandatory and cases were low.
> 
> I know I'm a minority on here, but you have to balance being careful and taking care of yourself and the people you mix with. While also being as normal as you can, some sort of normality needs to come back now.


I feel the same. That first lockdown was dreadful for the isolation that it caused and would have been fine if it had worked. I'm in close contact daily with children that don't wear masks so know that eventually I will catch it. It's better now that I can take a LFT before I see my parents but they decided that they wanted to carry on meeting up anyway.


----------



## Jesthar

Jobeth said:


> I feel the same. That first lockdown was dreadful for the isolation that it caused *and would have been fine if it had worked*. I'm in close contact daily with children that don't wear masks so know that eventually I will catch it. It's better now that I can take a LFT before I see my parents but they decided that they wanted to carry on meeting up anyway.


it did work - it prevented the NHS from being overwhelmed with cases and collapsing under the strain. It was never viable that it would wipe out Covid - theoretically it's possible, but some jobs need doing regardless so there will always be some risk, and of course there were and are too many numpties who either didn't/don't believe Covid is a thing, or don't believe the rules should apply to them - aided and abetted by utterly shambles that was the governmental lack of clear leadership...


----------



## rona

Are the numbers really high or are we just finding more because we test so much more? 
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-rate-select-countries-worldwide/

Also, if you look at hospitalisations, you then see the waves that seem to be a part of covid infections.
We seem to be on a different part of the wave. Many many times, we have been at the bottom. At the moment we are at riding that wave 
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/...ons-covid-per-million?time=2020-12-13..latest


----------



## MollySmith

WHO emergency committee have issued their guidance today 
https://www.who.int/news/item/26-10...-the-coronavirus-disease-(covid-19)-pandemic/


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Good grief.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59056316


----------



## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59056316


If there's any justice they should come down with Covid!


----------



## Psygon

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59056316


----------



## £54etgfb6

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59056316


Politicians really are exempt from the consequences of their actions huh


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59056316


 Honestly !


----------



## Happy Paws2

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59056316


Says it all, they think they different to everyone else


----------



## MilleD

HarlequinCat said:


> I just find it impossible to eradicate covid altogether. And there are people who have totally put their lives on hold, too worried to go out because of all the doom and gloom pumped out by the media. Their mental health totally affected, and it angers me. Even when masks were mandatory and cases were low.
> 
> I know I'm a minority on here, but you have to balance being careful and taking care of yourself and the people you mix with. While also being as normal as you can, some sort of normality needs to come back now. Everyone is fighting about who is right and wrong. And to be honest this whole thing is tiring


I think I might be in your camp.

I was told to shield last year and this year am not eligible for a booster apparently.

So I am just going back to normal as much as I can whilst wearing a mask, sanitising and staying away from people.

I know it's down to the individuals choice, but the economy just cannot stand for people to stay at home and not spend money anywhere.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I feel like I am in to different worlds at the moment, one where everyone is just getting on with lives. The other where I am not allowed to see my elderly mother because she is in hospital ( not with Covid) and visits are not allowed due to bloody covid. Its all very strange and sad.


----------



## Calvine

NHS Test and Trace criticised as 'eyewatering' waste of taxpayers' money (telegraph.co.uk)

So, £37 billion down the pan. Wow!


----------



## StormyThai

I thought I'd post the BBC article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56348558 just in case there are others that can't read the telegraph articles


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> NHS Test and Trace criticised as 'eyewatering' waste of taxpayers' money (telegraph.co.uk)
> 
> So, £37 billion down the pan. Wow!




So, my first question is: Why weren't these 'consultants' on zero hours contracts...? No work? No pay,,,


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Are the numbers really high or are we just finding more because we test so much more?
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-rate-select-countries-worldwide/
> 
> Also, if you look at hospitalisations, you then see the waves that seem to be a part of covid infections.
> We seem to be on a different part of the wave. Many many times, we have been at the bottom. At the moment we are at riding that wave
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/...ons-covid-per-million?time=2020-12-13..latest


Depends on the reliability of the source data. Both reports cited earlier have evidenced that the government was fluffing the figures by including tests not results and overflating the 'success'.

And the second source seems to read different from WHO here
https://covid19.who.int

And that's alarming because of the population and vaccine rollout in my amateur opinion. I would have thought we'd be lower as a Western country with access to our healthcare system and science. We've been in the top ten for cases for a long time with less well developed countries, I think according to the ONS.


----------



## MollySmith

Really sensible article by Laura Spinney, science journalist and the author of _Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World_ on why we have to have a _collective_ response to get to an endemic phase.
*****
As Cop26 gets under way in Glasgow this weekend, one collective action problem is taking centre stage against the backdrop of another. Covid-19 has been described as a dress rehearsal for our ability to solve the bigger problem of the climate crisis, so it seems important to point out that the pandemic isn't over. Instead, joined-up thinking has become more important than ever for solving the problem of Covid-19.

The endgame has been obvious for a while: rather than getting rid of Covid-19 entirely, countries will get used to it. The technical word for a disease that we're obliged to host indefinitely is "endemic". It means that the disease-causing agent - the Sars-CoV-2 virus in this case - is always circulating in the population, causing periodic but more-or-less predictable disease outbreaks. No country has entered the calmer waters of endemicity yet; we're all still on the white-knuckle ride of the pandemic phase.

In the pandemic phase, outbreaks are unpredictable and bad. There are simply too many people who remain susceptible to the virus, either because they're unvaccinated or because they haven't yet encountered the now-dominant Delta variant, which transmits even among the fully vaccinated. The virus will find most of them eventually - even if it does not cause them all to become seriously ill.

Only when such pools of susceptibility have dried up can we say the pandemic is over, the infectious disease modeller Adam Kucharski of the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine told me. From then on, the disease's spread will be sustained by gentler forces such as the gradual waning of immunity in the human population, and the emergence of relatively mild new variants. But nobody knows yet when that will happen, because there's uncertainty about how long a person remains immune to Sars-CoV-2 following natural infection or vaccination, and about the virus's capacity to generate variants that aren't mild.

One thing is clear: the transition to endemicity will happen at different times in different countries and regions. It's not unreasonable to think that the UK, with its high case numbers and vaccination rates, might be among those closest to the tipping point - which is why other countries are watching it closely.

Delta, which is around three times as transmissible as the original Wuhan variant of Sars-CoV-2, has yet to reach many countries, but since May it has been dominant in the UK, where it has spread like wildfire since "freedom day" on 19 July. That's why some scientists think the UK is entering its final pandemic wave, from which it will exit into the endemic phase next spring.

Others think the pandemic has several more waves left in it, even in the UK. The waves may be smaller than in the past, especially since vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisation to a large degree. But Britons may still be facing another year or more during which vulnerable people die in large numbers, others report the debilitating effects of long Covid, and health systems creak and potentially crack under the strain.

Every country will eventually reach endemicity, but the UK is heading there very fast - and there will inevitably be a human toll to pay. Letting the virus rip, even in a highly vaccinated population, carries other risks too. "The high case numbers in the UK at the moment can only increase the risk of emergence of variants of concern," the modeller Robin Thompson of the University of Warwick told me.

We have yet to see a Covid variant that causes severe disease even in the fully vaccinated. Touch wood, we won't. Virologist Didier Trono of the Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland is cautiously optimistic that SARSars-CoV-2 is nearing the limits of its capacity to adapt. Though new variants continue to emerge - such as AY.4.2, which recently started spreading in the UK - these have only been slightly more transmissible than Delta, at most, and the disease is not dramatically more severe now than it was in early 2020. But as immunity grows in the population, so does the selective pressure for the virus to mutate and escape that immunity. Vaccinologists are working hard to prepare for this risk.

It's a race to the finish, in other words, but a race that might not be won by the fastest. At this point, vaccines are protecting us individually, not collectively. But the form that the endemic disease will take will be shaped collectively. The future of Covid-19 could be as mild as a common cold, but it could be worse. The response to this future disease may need to be more onerous than the response to flu, which involves only an annual vaccination campaign. "I don't think we can rule out a situation where Covid, though endemic, puts overwhelming pressure on health systems in some years," Kucharski told me.

That's why the pandemic is still very much a collective action problem, and why the coming wave - whether or not it's the exit wave - should be met with masks, other light social distancing measures where and when required, and a high uptake of booster shots among those who are eligible. The strategy has to remain as nimble as the virus, which also means ensuring that there is no trade-off between booster campaigns in wealthy countries and the rollout of initial vaccine doses in poorer ones. Sars-CoV-2 may have been cornered, but it hasn't been tamed; it still has plenty of bite in it. And, as Cop26 reminds us, it's just the dry run.

Link to source


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith, sorry I can't read all that, far too much for me to take in.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> MollySmith, sorry I can't read all that, far too much for me to take in.


it is a lot! I found it helpful and thought others might


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> it is a lot! I found it helpful and thought others might


I hope you are right, just saying my brain doesn't take things in very easy now, which is very annoying.


----------



## kimthecat

@Happy Paws2 Mine too!


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> @Happy Paws2 Mine too!


Glad it's not just me


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I hope you are right, just saying my brain doesn't take things in very easy now, which is very annoying.





kimthecat said:


> @Happy Paws2 Mine too!


I find I have to read it out to myself for it to sink in. So I read all that out like my Nan used to do - she'd read from our local newspaper and we long for her to stop to have a ciggie so she'd pause. OMG I am my Nan... minus smoking!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I find I have to read it out to myself for it to sink in. So I read all that out like my Nan used to do - she'd read from our local newspaper and we long for her to stop to have a ciggie so she'd pause. OMG I am my Nan... minus smoking!


:Hilarious I think its good you put information here though for everyone to read. Ive found lots of info on forums over the years about cats and dog behaviour . Thats how I found this forum , I did a search and it came up.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I think its good you put information here though for everyone to read. Ive found lots of info on forums over the years about cats and dog behaviour . Thats how I found this forum , I did a search and it came up.


Oh thank you so much, that's so kind. I always try to find sensible/reassuring/truthful or fact checked sources as I'm very aware that we're found on Google. I'd hate to be spreading misinformation and also don't want people to get too worried either. Or bored!


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boris Johnson appears to says that it's okay to not wear a mask when you're around people you don't usually meet aka Sir David Attenborough at COP26 when Johnson was pictured without one. Attenborough was wearing a mask and so were others.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...to-95-year-old-david-attenborough-1281467/amp


----------



## Boxer123

Also looks asleep another example of our great leader leading by example ​


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> Boris Johnson appears to says that it's okay to not wear a mask when you're around people you don't usually meet aka Sir David Attenborough at COP26 when Johnson was pictured without one. Attenborough was wearing a mask and so were others.
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...to-95-year-old-david-attenborough-1281467/amp


Official advice on mask wearing. Boris must have an exemption then? He doesn't have to declare it but it's better to say he's exempt on medical grounds than lie...


----------



## MilleD

Pawscrossed said:


> Boris Johnson appears to says that it's okay to not wear a mask when you're around people you don't usually meet aka Sir David Attenborough at COP26 when Johnson was pictured without one. Attenborough was wearing a mask and so were others.
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...to-95-year-old-david-attenborough-1281467/amp


Isn't that the opposite of what he said? "Mr Johnson said: "I've been wearing masks when in confined spaces with people that I don't normally meet,"


----------



## Pawscrossed




----------



## MollySmith

What a total arsehole.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> What a total arsehole.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


>


I ran out of words and anything else I'd be banned :Bag


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> I ran out of words and anything else I'd be banned :Bag


You couldn't make it up.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> What a total arsehole.


Is moron acceptable? I don't normally call anyone that but he deserves the exemption


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I have no words. No flipping words.

I can't stand it.

I'm with @MollySmith in not being able to type what I'd like to, for fear of being banned.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> I ran out of words and anything else *I'd be banned *:Bag





Mrs Funkin said:


> I have no words. No flipping words.
> 
> I can't stand it.
> 
> I'm with @MollySmith in not being able to type what I'd like to,* for fear of being banned.*


I might as well!


----------



## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> Is moron acceptable? I don't normally call anyone that but he deserves the exemption


Effing, lying, scruffy, toe rag probably has some exemption for bribery and stealth infections. I imagine most have seen this

I don't think I've hated anyone quite so much.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Interesting read by an NHS Hospital Doctor.

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-have-we-doctors-been-silent/


----------



## £54etgfb6

HarlequinCat said:


> Interesting read by an NHS Hospital Doctor.
> 
> https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-have-we-doctors-been-silent/


Her article reads like fearmongering to me and for some reason, I feel like many that read that article will believe her simply because she's a doctor. Her writing is incredibly biased but then it is an opinion piece so I can't fault her for that. Transmission rates have generally been found to be lower in vaccinated individuals when compared to unvaccinated individuals, the primary exception to this is the Delta variant.

Additionally, the vaccines are not considered experimental (certainly not in the UK) as they are authorised for emergency use. As they have been authorised for use under these circumstances, they are not legally considered experimental. Her point about the Nuremberg code is obsolete due to this fact and using the holocaust as leverage for your (you as in the author) argument is sensationalism.

Her point about emerging side effects (some life-threatening) is a genuine concern but I'm not sure how she's forgotten that the known side effects for _any_ drug are not exhaustive. That's why the yellow card scheme exists because existing licensed drugs are continuously studied for efficacy and safety, and patient reports of side effects/complications help drive this research. A medication I was once on made me lose about 40% of my hair. I was never told that this could happen because it was not a listed proven side effect. That's not anyone's fault. The vaccines are new and like all newly authorised drugs (and drugs authorised long ago) the potential side effect list will keep growing.

Oddly, she berates other healthcare workers for not reading scientific literature but she appears to have failed to do this herself. If she has read the data, I'm presuming it's cherry-picked.


----------



## Siskin

bmr10 said:


> Her article reads like fearmongering to me and for some reason, I feel like many that read that article will believe her simply because she's a doctor. Her writing is incredibly biased but then it is an opinion piece so I can't fault her for that. Transmission rates have generally been found to be lower in vaccinated individuals when compared to unvaccinated individuals, the primary exception to this is the Delta variant.
> 
> Additionally, the vaccines are not considered experimental (certainly not in the UK) as they are authorised for emergency use. As they have been authorised for use under these circumstances, they are not legally considered experimental. Her point about the Nuremberg code is obsolete due to this fact and using the holocaust as leverage for your (you as in the author) argument is sensationalism.
> 
> Her point about emerging side effects (some life-threatening) is a genuine concern but I'm not sure how she's forgotten that the known side effects for _any_ drug are not exhaustive. That's why the yellow card scheme exists because existing licensed drugs are continuously studied for efficacy and safety, and patient reports of side effects/complications help drive this research. A medication I was once on made me lose about 40% of my hair. I was never told that this could happen because it was not a listed proven side effect. That's not anyone's fault. The vaccines are new and like all newly authorised drugs (and drugs authorised long ago) the potential side effect list will keep growing.
> 
> Oddly, she berates other healthcare workers for not reading scientific literature but she appears to have failed to do this herself. If she has read the data, I'm presuming it's cherry-picked.


Checking the website out where this article was published it would appear to be anti Covid and vaccine, I haven't read it all in detail, just an impression given by the other content. So I suspect as you have pointed out that it is fearmongering and largely coming from a biased agenda


----------



## HarlequinCat

Thing is a lot of people will be more likely to believe her than scientists at the press conferences because people will feel she has the more hands on role etc.

You could say the fear mongering goes both ways. Covid is now survivable by most people, particularly the younger, because they have been vaccinated.


----------



## Jesthar

HarlequinCat said:


> Interesting read by an NHS Hospital Doctor.
> 
> https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-have-we-doctors-been-silent/


Hmm, that feels disjointed and disingenouous to say the least, not to mention highy biased. Some of her points are very strange choices for a doctor - for example, she should know that the yellow card scheme exists for reporting POTENTIAL instances of side effects, and should never be taken as accurate raw data as, in many cases, correlation does not imply causation.

Plus she goes on to say that she hasn't had any involvement with the Covid effort (which she mocks by calling it "the 'fight' against coronavirus"), or the vaccinationprogram, so I'm guessing all those who have watched covid victims suffer and pass away would have something different to say.

Also, don't get me started on the argiment that the vaccine "not stop one contracting the virus, nor do they stop person-to-person transmission, they merely reduce the severity of symptoms" - well, duh. We've been here before with so many things - seatbelts, for example, don't stop people being killed or injured in car crashes, but they do drastiaclly reduce those numbers. Should we stop wearing seatbelts simply because they are not 100% effective?

And that line about obedience being fear based is utter codswallop! Most obedience is based on love and respect - there's a reason we use positive reinforcement training for animals nowadays.

Looking at the rest of the site they seem to be a bunch of Trump supportors, covid deniers and general Jingoistic chest beaters. Think I'll pass!


----------



## Siskin

It’s very easy to twist words to suit the narrative


----------



## Mrs Funkin

As a slightly different spin, it is also incredibly easy to find out her details (I found within less than a minute where she qualified, where she works and what she does) and I can’t imagine her workplace would be overly pleased by this public stance. Unfortunately when you work under an NHS contract, you are bound to certain things (such a recommending a vaccination if it’s in national guideline, whether you personally agree or not) - if you don’t want to be bound by that, then don’t work in the NHS. 

Have an opinion, fine - but please don’t abuse your position pretending to write an “evidence based” opinion piece as sadly people will see the first line of the piece and take it more seriously.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Jesthar said:


> Hmm, that feels disjointed and disingenouous to say the least, not to mention highy biased. Some of her points are very strange choices for a doctor - for example, she should know that the yellow card scheme exists for reporting POTENTIAL instances of side effects, and should never be taken as accurate raw data as, in many cases, correlation does not imply causation.
> 
> Plus she goes on to say that she hasn't had any involvement with the Covid effort (which she mocks by calling it "the 'fight' against coronavirus"), or the vaccinationprogram, so I'm guessing all those who have watched covid victims suffer and pass away would have something different to say.
> 
> Also, don't get me started on the argiment that the vaccine "not stop one contracting the virus, nor do they stop person-to-person transmission, they merely reduce the severity of symptoms" - well, duh. We've been here before with so many things - seatbelts, for example, don't stop people being killed or injured in car crashes, but they do drastiaclly reduce those numbers. Should we stop wearing seatbelts simply because they are not 100% effective?
> 
> And that line about obedience being fear based is utter codswallop! Most obedience is based on love and respect - there's a reason we use positive reinforcement training for animals nowadays.
> 
> Looking at the rest of the site they seem to be a bunch of Trump supportors, covid deniers and general Jingoistic chest beaters. Think I'll pass!





Mrs Funkin said:


> As a slightly different spin, it is also incredibly easy to find out her details (I found within less than a minute where she qualified, where she works and what she does) and I can't imagine her workplace would be overly pleased by this public stance. Unfortunately when you work under an NHS contract, you are bound to certain things (such a recommending a vaccination if it's in national guideline, whether you personally agree or not) - if you don't want to be bound by that, then don't work in the NHS.
> 
> Have an opinion, fine - but please don't abuse your position pretending to write an "evidence based" opinion piece as sadly people will see the first line of the piece and take it more seriously.


Thing is a lot of people will take it at face value with her being a doctor, and I think by now thousands will have seen it because it's been spread and shared a lot on places like Twitter etc


----------



## Calvine

''My concern over our professional passivity turned to alarm as our compliance required us to support the roll-out of an experimental vaccine to _a trusting population_.''

Not sure it was aimed at a ''_trusting population_''. Nearly everyone I spoke to had doubts, misgivings about having receiving a vaccination which had been so recently produced and whose long-term effects could not be known. But they could also see that there was actually no alternative (apart from ''herd immunity''). I don't think the general public was ''trusting'' at all. I certainly wasn't.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> View attachment 479287


I don't know about....

I'd like him to come and speak to me then I could tell him just what I think of him.....not saying what I'd say as I'd get banned.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Mrs Funkin said:


> As a slightly different spin, it is also incredibly easy to find out her details (I found within less than a minute where she qualified, where she works and what she does) and I can't imagine her workplace would be overly pleased by this public stance. Unfortunately when you work under an NHS contract, you are bound to certain things (such a recommending a vaccination if it's in national guideline, whether you personally agree or not) - if you don't want to be bound by that, then don't work in the NHS.
> 
> Have an opinion, fine - but please don't abuse your position pretending to write an "evidence based" opinion piece as sadly people will see the first line of the piece and take it more seriously.


I did wonder how she got off with mentioning (and why she mentioned) that she's a doctor specifically working for the NHS. The cynical part of me believes it's because the NHS (rightfully so) is near and dear to many. She could have easily mentioned she has an MD, DO, MBChB, BMBS, etc as proof that she is a doctor. Mentioning her full name and the company she works under seems risky imo. I don't think anyone on here would do this but giving away such personal information puts you at risk of harassment especially when you've posted on a political website.


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> Interesting read by an NHS Hospital Doctor.
> 
> https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-have-we-doctors-been-silent/


Ah yes, Conservative Women who were held to account by Full Fact the indie checking organisation about vaccines in August (https://fullfact.org/health/conservative-woman-article-falsely-claims-vaccines-dont-work/)

I'll wait to see if they review it, in fact.. I've asked them if they will.


----------



## kimthecat

Riots in Rotterdam 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/nov/19/riots-erupt-at-covid-19-protest-in-rotterdam/
THE HAGUE, Netherlands - Police fired warning shots, injuring an unknown number of people, as riots broke out Friday night in downtown Rotterdam at a demonstration against plans by the government to restrict access for unvaccinated people to some venues.

Police said in a tweet that "there are injuries in connection with the shots" during the violent unrest. Riot police used a water cannon in an attempt to drive hundreds of rioters from a central street in the port city.

Video from social media shown on Dutch broadcaster NOS appeared to show a person being shot in Rotterdam, but there was no immediate word on what happened.


----------



## mrs phas

HarlequinCat said:


> Interesting read by an NHS Hospital Doctor.
> 
> https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-have-we-doctors-been-silent/


Obviously an opinion piece, interspersed with a few facts 
Rather than a factual piece interspersed with a few personal opinions 
Large pinch of salt just flew over my shoulder


----------



## kimthecat

Riots in Belgium. i hope they dont decide on another lockdown here. I dont think the public will accept it . I hope the vaccinations will be enough.


----------



## willa

Please delete if In wrong section.

But what on earth is up with Boris. He was meant to be giving a really important speech today, instead he talked about Peppa Pig, and then lost his notes & didn’t know what to say.

We have been led through his Pandemic by a Clown


----------



## £54etgfb6

willa said:


> Please delete if In wrong section.
> 
> But what on earth is up with Boris. He was meant to be giving a really important speech today, instead he talked about Peppa Pig, and then lost his notes & didn't know what to say.
> 
> We have been led through his Pandemic by a Clown


And didn't he compare himself to a religious figure (Moses)? Yes… I'm sure there are some religious figures he resembles…. one stereotyped to have a pitchfork perhaps.

I view it as part of his "bumbling lovable relatable fool" gig. Act like an humorous idiot so people don't think you're a threat. I've met people who voted for him purely because they think he's funny and his "eccentric" behaviours come across as harmless. The guy's a wolf in sheep's clothing, ignored all of his advisories with a science degree at the beginning of all of this, and supported the idea of "herd immunity" which would intentionally and needlessly allow innocent people to die for the profit of the few at the top.

Apologies for my rant, can't stand him. How anyone can believe he has a modicum of concern over the well-being of the public beyond keeping people in line and money flowing is beyond me!


----------



## rona

https://www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre...-prime-ministers-speech-at-annual-conference/

CBI seemed to have a different take on the speech


----------



## StormyThai

"That mix of high of ambition and focused detail can provide a blueprint for how government and business can work together to turn political aspiration into boardroom action"

That just sounds like a load of buzz words strung together from someone out of a marketing course :Hilarious
Gave me a chuckle early in the morning anyway :Bag


----------



## rona

StormyThai said:


> "
> That just sounds like a load of buzz words strung together from someone out of a marketing course :Hilarious
> Gave me a chuckle early in the morning anyway :Bag


The press,, FB, Twitter and people actually believing it makes me perplexed and rather sad at the dumbing down of society


----------



## StormyThai

I don't think that society is dumbing down..
It's easier to sit in your own echo chamber these days... but I don't think that makes people dumber than they were in previous generations ☺


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> the dumbing down of society


 And the fact that, for some people, anything that appears on FB etc is gospel. Citing close-to-home examples, we have a couple on PF and whenever someone asks for advice, say about diet, they will give the most worryingly odd advice you ever saw in your life. When this ''advice'' is subsequently questioned by another member, there comes the answer: ''It's all over Facebook - _everybody _knows that such-and-such a cat food is fatal - there are cats dropping like flies all over the UK, vets are overwhelmed''. FB can, of course, be an amazing tool, say for searching for a missing cat or getting information for pets' health problems. But you have to be a bit selective in what you believe.


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> And didn't he compare himself to a religious figure (Moses)? Yes… I'm sure there are some religious figures he resembles…. one stereotyped to have a pitchfork perhaps.
> 
> I view it as part of his "bumbling lovable relatable fool" gig. Act like an humorous idiot so people don't think you're a threat. I've met people who voted for him purely because they think he's funny and his "eccentric" behaviours come across as harmless. The guy's a wolf in sheep's clothing, ignored all of his advisories with a science degree at the beginning of all of this, and supported the idea of "herd immunity" which would intentionally and needlessly allow innocent people to die for the profit of the few at the top.
> 
> Apologies for my rant, can't stand him. How anyone can believe he has a modicum of concern over the well-being of the public beyond keeping people in line and money flowing is beyond me!


I agree, I think his a bumbling buffoon that wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the face, he's just lies and broken promises and fudges any questions his of asked, I just don't understand why people still believe him!


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I agree, I think his a bumbling buffoon that wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the face, he's just lies and broken promises and fudges any questions his of asked, I just don't understand why people still believe him!


You don't have to believe him to realise that they are getting on with sorting many things that have been left for decades. Yes there are mistakes, there will be with so much change and upheaval, but look below the headlines. So much good is happening


----------



## kimthecat

willa said:


> Please delete if In wrong section.
> 
> But what on earth is up with Boris. He was meant to be giving a really important speech today, instead he talked about Peppa Pig, and then lost his notes & didn't know what to say.
> 
> We have been led through his Pandemic by a Clown


He could just be exhausted. I can imagine he doesnt get a lot of sleep.

hes promised a lot of changes in animal welfare and some will become law . he promised the shipping of livestock abroad would cease but I cant see that happening.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> You don't have to believe him to realise that they are getting on with sorting many things that have been left for decades. Yes there are mistakes, there will be with so much change and upheaval, but look below the headlines. So much good is happening


I'm sorry Rona but really, he says one thing then does another, the mans a idiot.

Even with Brexit he signed an agreement and now wants to change it, no wonder the EU are losing patience with us.


----------



## Jacknmack10

We have one of the highest death tolls in the world thanks to Johnson's incompetent handling of COVID. Tory donors and ministers have pocketed £billions of pounds of public money, money which could have been spent on the NHS. Plus he's a brazen liar. This video has viral, it exposes a few of those lies. It's what all media outlets should be doing.


----------



## Boxer123

rona said:


> You don't have to believe him to realise that they are getting on with sorting many things that have been left for decades. Yes there are mistakes, there will be with so much change and upheaval, but look below the headlines. So much good is happening


Pray do tell what good ?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> Pray do tell what good ?


Good question.. I'd like to know as well,


----------



## MilleD

I'm not fan of Johnson at the moment, but I do find it amusing that people think that anyone else could have done any better in an unprecedented worldwide pandemic.

Hindsight is a marvellous thing.

And before anyone mentions our death rates, on Worldometer we are currently 30th on the list of countries based on deaths per 1m population (any death is terrible I understand that). And that's before you take into account the difficulties in reporting rates in places like India and Africa, the difference in reporting numbers based on different criteria, demographics and population density and whether some country's figures are just utter rubbish. Like China.

Yes, mistakes have been made (track and trace for instance), and I appreciate the pressure the NHS has been under but those mistakes (and our vaccination programme - thank you NHS) actually look like we might be set up better to survive the winter than most other European countries Covid: Can UK avoid a Europe-style return to lockdown? - BBC News

If only we could now rely on people to follow the advice given to keep others safe, that would be a huge step forward.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> And the fact that, for some people, anything that appears on FB etc is gospel. Citing close-to-home examples, we have a couple on PF and whenever someone asks for advice, say about diet, they will give the most worryingly odd advice you ever saw in your life. When this ''advice'' is subsequently questioned by another member, there comes the answer: ''It's all over Facebook - _everybody _knows that such-and-such a cat food is fatal - there are cats dropping like flies all over the UK, vets are overwhelmed''. FB can, of course, be an amazing tool, say for searching for a missing cat or getting information for pets' health problems. But you have to be a bit selective in what you believe.


I think a lot of it is to do with many people don't think that most people would lie to them. I don't think it's a mark of intelligence but probably more to do with your experiences through life and your personality type. Some people are highly trusting of others and are happy to place this trust in someone's hands without question.


----------



## kimthecat

Jacknmack10 said:


> We have one of the highest death tolls in the world thanks to Johnson's incompetent handling of COVID. Tory donors and ministers have pocketed £billions of pounds of public money, money which could have been spent on the NHS. Plus he's a brazen liar. This video has viral, it exposes a few of those lies. It's what all media outlets should be doing.


Im not sure we have the highest total of deaths in the world . One reason is that deaths in the Uk are counted as covid if someone dies for whatever reason, say a heart attack but had covid . 
But tory sleaze , shocking .


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Even with Brexit he signed an agreement and now wants to change it, no wonder the EU are losing patience with us.


Ive lost touch of the situation , apart from The NI situation , what does he want changed.? The EU lost patience with us before he was PM ! 
Someone had to sign something , after years of no deal.


----------



## kimthecat

bmr10 said:


> . The guy's a wolf in sheep's clothing, ignored all of his advisories with a science degree at the beginning of all of this, and supported the idea of "herd immunity" which would intentionally and needlessly allow innocent people to die for the profit of the few at the top.


looking back , I thought he was to slow to bring in lockdown . But many people have lost jobs because of lock downs , business closed for good , suicide rates rose too so its not just about a few at the top profiting.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Ive lost touch of the situation , apart from The NI situation , what does he want changed.? The EU lost patience with us before he was PM !
> Someone had to sign something , after years of no deal.


I don't think the French fisherman like us either..


----------



## Blackadder

I'm sure we've seen this somewhere before.... people being transferred in Army trucks to "camps".
It's getting scarier by the minute!!


----------



## £54etgfb6

kimthecat said:


> looking back , I thought he was to slow to bring in lockdown . But many people have lost jobs because of lock downs , business closed for good , suicide rates rose too so its not just about a few at the top profiting.


I completely agree with the negative affects of lockdown on the economy and especially the well-being of everyone. We are social animals and being placed into isolation is i natural. However, I believe that if he had taken the words of the NHS and scientific researches more seriously, brought in the lockdown more swiftly and placed *effective* measures that limited people's movement and contained the known cases (such as closing the borders early) then we would not have had to have so many long, repeated periods of lockdown. We have went through this pandemic in a very staggered back and forth fashion as if we are seeing how far we could push transmission rates before we closed down everything again. I don't think the economy and people's health would have taken such a large hit if he had brought in restrictions that were stricter sooner.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think the French fisherman like us either..


 I'm pretty sure the agreement with the Eu about fishing wasn't changed after Boris signed it.


----------



## kimthecat

Boxer123 said:


> Pray do tell what good ?


That's a bit sarcastic  It could put people off from giving their opinions if they see this.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> That's a bit sarcastic  It could put people off from giving their opinions if they see this.


why it's true, what have they done?


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> why it's true, what have they done?


Yes. Why not just just say What good has he done ? Pray do tell is sarcasm.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Boxer123

kimthecat said:


> That's a bit sarcastic  It could put people off from giving their opinions if they see this.


.....


----------



## MilleD

Boxer123 said:


> .....


Got my notifications turned on so saw your post. Don't forget it's not just the person you reply to that sees what you post though.


----------



## kimthecat

Boxer123 said:


> .....





MilleD said:


> Got my notifications turned on so saw your post. Don't forget it's not just the person you reply to that sees what you post though.


 Good point.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think the French fisherman like us either..


I dont think their police do either. They're standing by watching refugees get into dangerous dinghies and do nothing to stop them and we get the blame for their tragic deaths.


----------



## StormyThai

kimthecat said:


> They're standing by watching refugees get into dangerous dinghies and do nothing to stop them


As these people aren't actually breaking any laws what would you suggest they do? It isn't illegal to buy a boat, nor is it illegal to take said boat out onto the water.
It only becomes a police matter if they commit crimes, and until they walk onto British shores they are not doing anything wrong...I mean they could try to stop them but you saw how people reacted to being told to wear a face covering, can you imagine the backlash from people that are actually fleeing for their lives?


----------



## Calvine

StormyThai said:


> As these people aren't actually breaking any laws


 Surely people trafficking is breaking the law? And loading 30 people on to a dinghy designed to carry, say, maybe twelve, must be against all the laws of common sense . . . and I thought the gendarmes were supposed to be ''patrolling'' to see that it didn't happen. It's what we pay them handsomely for.


----------



## StormyThai

Calvine said:


> Surely people trafficking is breaking the law?


It is...you can bet that the people organising the trafficking will not be the ones wandering through the towns with dinghies, and migrants are routinely threatened if they talk to the media...or anyone.
The issues with the gendarmes patrolling to "stop this" is that there are many, many places for migrants to hide when a patrol comes past...and even when patrols intensified they just moved to a more dangerous part of the coast. Gen Frantz Tavart, the gendarmes' regional commander has stated that it is like playing a game of chess with the smugglers always one step ahead.
Add to all that the fact that the gendarmes are outnumbered and these people are desperate especially as they have just spent their life savings on this trip.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Surely people trafficking is breaking the law? And loading 30 people on to a dinghy designed to carry, say, maybe twelve, must be against all the laws of common sense . . . and I thought the gendarmes were supposed to be ''patrolling'' to see that it didn't happen.* It's what we pay them handsomely for.*


Don't think we have, we still owe a lot of money.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Pray do tell what good ?


I'm utterly in the dark too, what good things @rona ? And keep in mind that the Torys have been in power for decades, I'm genuinely interested to know. It beats watching Newsnight and the news and we could all do with some hope that the government are doing something useful. I clearly have missed it. And there's no sarcasm here, I'm interested in hearing what hope you see about your party.


----------



## MollySmith

Please can I politely ask the thread to refer to the people in the boat that died, and all those before them as people. Enough of this de-humanising 'refugees' and 'migrants'. People - men, women, children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, daughters, sons. *People*.

- It's not a dig at anyone, the media and politicians create this phrases and they become habit, I'm guilty too I'm sure, but I think these - much like Covid death stats not names - disconnection us from the real fact that these are human beings.

Nobody could take this less seriously than Daddy Pig's ask Twitter approach. I'm surprised he didn't #AskTwitter and we could have had a go.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Don't think we have, we still owe a lot of money.


 I believe it was agreed to pay £54 million, but UK is now withholding some as they don't think it is being spent where it is needed. They also supposedly refused an offer to have UK police and Border Force over there to help.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't they would allow French Police over here if it was the other way round.

Maybe if we were still in the EU things might be different.


----------



## Calvine

StormyThai said:


> It is...you can bet that the people organising the trafficking will not be the ones wandering through the towns with dinghies, and migrants are routinely threatened if they talk to the media...or anyone.
> The issues with the gendarmes patrolling to "stop this" is that there are many, many places for migrants to hide when a patrol comes past...and even when patrols intensified they just moved to a more dangerous part of the coast. Gen Frantz Tavart, the gendarmes' regional commander has stated that it is like playing a game of chess with the smugglers always one step ahead.
> Add to all that the fact that the gendarmes are outnumbered and these people are desperate especially as they have just spent their life savings on this trip.


French police 'stood by and watched' migrants hours before deadly Channel crossing (telegraph.co.uk)
When so many are carrying something this size, I don't think they can run and hide themselves and the dinghy that easily.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I believe it was agreed to pay £54 million, but UK is now withholding some as they don't think it is being spent where it is needed. They also supposedly refused an offer to have UK police and Border Force over there to help.


There is an election soon in France so Macron is trying to act tough to impress his citizens. A shame some money isn't spent on better conditions for the refugees, I assume those that don't claim asylum in France are classed as illegal immigrants and they don't have to help them. I don't know what the EU stance is on this.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Macron is trying to act tough to impress his citizens


I read some time back that his popularity was abysmally low so that may be true. What I cannot get my head round is how something dreadful like this happens off Calais, but France seems to think it is not their fault at all, and in fact their Minister of the Interior blames it on the fact that ''UK is far too generous with the benefits they hand out so readily - if they gave them less, they would have no incentive to travel to UK''. (Unquote.)


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I read some time back that his popularity was abysmally low so that may be true. What I cannot get my head round is how something dreadful like this happens off Calais, but France seems to think it is not their fault at all, and in fact their Minister of the Interior blames it on the fact that ''UK is far too generous with the benefits they hand out so readily - if they gave them less, they would have no incentive to travel to UK''. (Unquote.)


 yet if we didnt give refugees benefits we'd be called cruel and people would protest.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> yet if we didnt give refugees benefits we'd be called cruel and people would protest


I think this country has always done its fair share where genuine refugees are concerned - most recently the ones from Afghanistan.


----------



## Jacknmack10

Calvine said:


> I think this country has always done its fair share where genuine refugees are concerned - most recently the ones from Afghanistan.


The government has closed official route s to refugees hun. Lord Kerr in the video below clearly and concisely exposes the myths.

One of those who perished worked with British soldiers in the Afghan army. He had to the dangerous route because this government failed to setup the Afghan resettlement scheme to help those who worked with UK forces.

"What drives us down this road is sheer political prejudice. Not the facts. Because the facts do not support a case for cruelty." 
,"The government is every bit as culpable for the deaths of the 27 as the people smugglers."

Lord Kerr destroys Priti Patel's narrative about refugees with three simple facts.


----------



## rona

Jacknmack10 said:


> The government has closed official route s to refugees hun. Lord Kerr in the video below clearly and concisely exposes the myths.
> 
> One of those who perished worked with British soldiers in the Afghan army. He had to the dangerous route because this government failed to setup the Afghan resettlement scheme to help those who worked with UK forces.
> 
> "What drives us down this road is sheer political prejudice. Not the facts. Because the facts do not support a case for cruelty."
> ,"The government is every bit as culpable for the deaths of the 27 as the people smugglers."
> 
> Lord Kerr destroys Priti Patel's narrative about refugees with three simple facts.


So. What was the reply to that?


----------



## Jacknmack10

MilleD said:


> I'm not fan of Johnson at the moment, but I do find it amusing that people think that anyone else could have done any better in an unprecedented worldwide pandemic.
> 
> Hindsight is a marvellous thing.
> 
> And before anyone mentions our death rates, on Worldometer we are currently 30th on the list of countries based on deaths per 1m population (any death is terrible I understand that). And that's before you take into account the difficulties in reporting rates in places like India and Africa, the difference in reporting numbers based on different criteria, demographics and population density and whether some country's figures are just utter rubbish. Like China.
> 
> Yes, mistakes have been made (track and trace for instance), and I appreciate the pressure the NHS has been under but those mistakes (and our vaccination programme - thank you NHS) actually look like we might be set up better to survive the winter than most other European countries Covid: Can UK avoid a Europe-style return to lockdown? - BBC News
> 
> If only we could now rely on people to follow the advice given to keep others safe, that would be a huge step forward.


When COVID first hit the UK he didn't need to rely on hindsight hun, he was given plenty of warnings. He locked down too late, allowing flights to come and go. Then he opened up too early (I wish he was more concerned with people dying than saving Christmas). He removed the wearing of masks in public spaces and social distancing despite the number of infections and deaths rising and ignored the warning of the BMA last month to move to planB.

The BMA have been scathing of the governments handling of the pandemic.
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2843

Apologies, excluding developing countries is what I should have said. After the USA we have the worst death rate in the world..

Test & trace wasn't a mistake hun, he's been dishing out contracts left right and centre to party donors and friends. It's corruption on a grand scale. The government have given £billions to Tory donor Dido Harding's firm Serco for the test and trace contract. Had that contract gone to the NHS they would have done it cheaply and efficiently. Now, have you noticed, conservative MPs and the media always make a point of calling it NHS test&trace? Not serco test & trace? They are laying the blame for it's failure at the feet of the NHS when they outsourced the contract to a private company.

Boris doesn't even follow his own advice. Just the other day he was snapped on a crowded train.......maskless.

.



kimthecat said:


> Im not sure we have the highest total of deaths in the world . One reason is that deaths in the Uk are counted as covid if someone dies for whatever reason, say a heart attack but had covid .
> But tory sleaze , shocking .


----------



## Jacknmack10

rona said:


> So. What was the reply to that?


I'll try to find the entire speech. But those are verifiable facts.


----------



## MilleD

Jacknmack10 said:


> When COVID first hit the UK he didn't need to rely on hindsight hun, he was given plenty of warnings. He locked down too late, allowing flights to come and go. Then he opened up too early (I wish he was more concerned with people dying than saving Christmas). He removed the wearing of masks in public spaces and social distancing despite the number of infections and deaths rising and ignored the warning of the BMA last month to move to planB.
> 
> The BMA have been scathing of the governments handling of the pandemic.
> https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2843
> 
> Apologies, excluding developing countries is what I should have said. After the USA we have the worst death rate in the world..
> 
> Test & trace wasn't a mistake hun, he's been dishing out contracts left right and centre to party donors and friends. It's corruption on a grand scale. The government have given £billions to Tory donor Dido Harding's firm Serco for the test and trace contract. Had that contract gone to the NHS they would have done it cheaply and efficiently. Now, have you noticed, conservative MPs and the media always make a point of calling it NHS test&trace? Not serco test & trace? They are laying the blame for it's failure at the feet of the NHS when they outsourced the contract to a private company.
> 
> Boris doesn't even follow his own advice. Just the other day he was snapped on a crowded train.......maskless.
> 
> .


Please don't call me "hun".

It's everyone else using the hindsight.


----------



## rona

Jacknmack10 said:


> Boris doesn't even follow his own advice. Just the other day he was snapped on a crowded train.......maskless.


Masks don't have to be worn at the moment...........You do know that?

Also, are you sure he wasn't eating?


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> It's everyone else using the hindsight.


Not really. Public infection control protocols are simple, long established, and highly effective when followed. Not perfect, granted, but they work.

The biggest problem is you need a good level of public compliance, and in order to get that you need consistancy and compliance from the people at the top. Which we didn't get. Public briefings were a mass of waffle and contradiction rather than concise explanation and direction. They delayed introducing measures until they had no choice (remember the whole 'Britain can take it on the chin' and other herd immunity rhetoric?), and then wasted shedloads of money on fictional PPE etc.

Yes, hindsight is 20:20, but given all the hindsight they now have, they don't seem to have learned anything...


----------



## cheekyscrip

BJ says Christmas parties are on…
Experts on the other hand…

But _who needs experts?

_


----------



## MollySmith

There are numerous reports on the behaviour of the Government. That I feel is important to note, yes Boris (currently trending on Twitter for the Last Leg Dick of the Year) and his own actions have been astonishingly disrespectful of the party and the public but there are _his personal actions_ (watching films in the Media Room, not attending Cobra meetings in Nov/Dec 2019, being told to wear a mask in a hospital and refusing to, Christmas parties last year...there are doubtless more) and those of the Government. They are different.

This link was on page 2 of this thread and sets out, by Full Fact who are independent, on issues around the pandemic
https://fullfact.org/blog/2021/jan/fix-information-failures-or-risk-lives-full-fact-report-2021/

There's also the parliamentary report from October, again already posted here https://appgcoronavirus.marchforchange.uk/publicinquiry

Clearly hindsight matters but this isn't the first time we've been in a pandemic. AIDS, SARS..and they had information long long before us. They are elected to _lead _based on the data and information they have from world-wide sources which included other island nations. AND we have an NHS, we could have done a lot better as is clear from these reports.


----------



## £54etgfb6

cheekyscrip said:


> BJ says Christmas parties are on…
> Experts on the other hand…
> 
> But _who needs experts?
> _


you'd think he wants to wipe out the vulnerable (and maybe he does!). A christmas party is so non-essential good god I know he doesn't take the pandemic seriously but you'd expect with the new variant he would have been advised to put a hold on easing restrictions? wow!


----------



## cheekyscrip

bmr10 said:


> you'd think he wants to wipe out the vulnerable (and maybe he does!). A christmas party is so non-essential good god I know he doesn't take the pandemic seriously but you'd expect with the new variant he would have been advised to put a hold on easing restrictions? wow!


Funny that he nearly died from it and learnt nothing from it…
Let's see if he can get it again…
By the way from the point of economy octogenarians are a pure luxury…Getting rid if the elderly and infirm makes great savings for the government…


----------



## £54etgfb6

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that he nearly died from it and learnt nothing from it…
> Let's see if he can get it again…
> By the way from the point of economy octogenarians are a pure luxury…Getting rid if the elderly and infirm makes great savings for the government…


Getting rid of any vulnerable population other than children is great for the government. They are always the ones hit hardest by government decisions. For someone who wants to privatise the NHS how ironic is it that he would use the emergency services provided *by* the NHS when he was ill with covid! It really is about what's best for them not for the public.


----------



## MollySmith

MollySmith said:


> There are numerous reports on the behaviour of the Government. That I feel is important to note, yes Boris (currently trending on Twitter for the Last Leg Dick of the Year) and his own actions have been astonishingly disrespectful of the party and the public but there are _his personal actions_ (watching films in the Media Room, not attending Cobra meetings in Nov/Dec 2019, being told to wear a mask in a hospital and refusing to, Christmas parties last year...there are doubtless more) and those of the Government. They are different.
> 
> This link was on page 2 of this thread and sets out, by Full Fact who are independent, on issues around the pandemic
> https://fullfact.org/blog/2021/jan/fix-information-failures-or-risk-lives-full-fact-report-2021/
> 
> There's also the parliamentary report from October, again already posted here https://appgcoronavirus.marchforchange.uk/publicinquiry
> 
> Clearly hindsight matters but this isn't the first time we've been in a pandemic. AIDS, SARS..and they had information long long before us. They are elected to _lead _based on the data and information they have from world-wide sources which included other island nations. AND we have an NHS, we could have done a lot better as is clear from these reports.


Dear Me. Don't be that generous about Boris and chums


----------



## rona

If you think getting rid of elderly is saving money while others are long term ill from covid.........you are just nuts.

I cared and lost my friend during covid, with no help until the very end. My sister hasn't been out of her house for 2 years because she's terrified. Still I don't ever think it's the governments fault.

We are in a pandemic for goodness sake.......................


----------



## Blackadder

rona said:


> My sister hasn't been out of her house for 2 years because she's terrified. Still I don't ever think it's the governments fault.


That's where we differ, I do think it's the Govs fault (along with the Media stoking up the fear)

The never ending flip-flop from one thing to the next, telling us to do things while blatantly doing the opposite, allowing SAGE to publish model predictions that have been hopelessly (damagingly) wrong for the duration of this pandemic, the shutting down of the NHS to anything other than Covid! I could go on... it's no wonder your sister is frightened.

What the public needed was clear & simple guidance, instead we got nonsense.


----------



## rona

Blackadder said:


> What the public needed was clear & simple guidance, instead we got nonsense.


Oddly, it all seems pretty clear too me. I cannot understand what's so confusing to people.

Take responsibility for your own safety in a manner that is appropriate to yourself.

When they locked us down people complained, when they opened things up people complained and now we are being given a choice, people still complain


----------



## Happy Paws2

Blackadder said:


> What the public needed was clear & simple guidance, instead we got nonsense.


We are never going to get that from BJ he just fluffs, stampers and shouts, no wonder everyone is confused..


----------



## Siskin

Can’t say I’m confused


----------



## Blackadder

rona said:


> Oddly, it all seems pretty clear too me. I cannot understand what's so confusing to people.
> 
> Take responsibility for your own safety in a manner that is appropriate to yourself.
> 
> When they locked us down people complained, when they opened things up people complained and now we are being given a choice, people still complain


It might be a little clearer now but surely you can remember the "scotch egg" malarky? Pubs couldn't open unless they served a "substantial meal" alongside alcohol but no clarification was given on what that meant... nobody knew what the rules were! It was a member of the Gov who suggested that a scotch egg "could" be considered substantial


----------



## Cleo38

Blackadder said:


> That's where we differ, I do think it's the Govs fault (along with the Media stoking up the fear)
> 
> The never ending flip-flop from one thing to the next, telling us to do things while blatantly doing the opposite, allowing SAGE to publish model predictions that have been hopelessly (damagingly) wrong for the duration of this pandemic, the shutting down of the NHS to anything other than Covid! I could go on... it's no wonder your sister is frightened.
> 
> What the public needed was clear & simple guidance, instead we got nonsense.


Exactly! And how people were bundled in to care homes at the start of the pandemic therefore infecting the existing residents, it was a bloody shambles. I think the elderly (in particular) have been treated so badly in all this. Yet again they were promised that they wouldn't be forgotten but they were & it was left to neighbours to set up support groups to help out the most vulnerable members of society


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> Exactly! And how people were bundled in to care homes at the start of the pandemic therefore infecting the existing residents, it was a bloody shambles. I think the elderly (in particular) have been treated so badly in all this. Yet again they were promised that they wouldn't be forgotten but they were & it was left to neighbours to set up support groups to help out the most vulnerable members of society


It really was awful. There was a whole forgotten elderly, those with no family at all. Our local football club rang up all the elderly season ticket holders to check up and for many they had no other contact. It was frightening to read that in our modern times many had no idea how to get online shopping or if they could, no way of being able to get a slot. It felt like everything is online when there is a substantial part of our society who are not by age or circumstances and it really ought not be so.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> It really was awful. There was a whole forgotten elderly, those with no family at all. Our local football club rang up all the elderly season ticket holders to check up and for many they had no other contact. It was frightening to read that in our modern times many had no idea how to get online shopping or if they could, no way of being able to get a slot. It felt like everything is online when there is a substantial part of our society who are not by age or circumstances and it really ought not be so.


Isn't that always the case though? I agree that it's been much more pronounced during the pandemic but accessibility to the internet has always been an issue in my opinion, for any age group. The internet is wonderful but when so many services move online you kind of wonder how people in Britain with limited/no internet access feel.

But! I do think we (societal we) treat older people not very great at all. Especially during the pandemic. The government, in my opinion, don't seem to care about improving quality of life for them.


----------



## rona

Siskin said:


> Can't say I'm confused


You have more reason than most, to be resentful of how things have gone.



Blackadder said:


> It might be a little clearer now but surely you can remember the "scotch egg" malarky? Pubs couldn't open unless they served a "substantial meal" alongside alcohol but no clarification was given on what that meant... nobody knew what the rules were! It was a member of the Gov who suggested that a scotch egg "could" be considered substantial


I,d like to see some here make decisions every few days about every aspect of life and get it all perfect! While dealing with a multitude of other issues, including a global pandemic!


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> It felt like everything is online when there is a substantial part of our society who are not by age or circumstances and it really ought not be so.





bmr10 said:


> Isn't that always the case though? I agree that it's been much more pronounced during the pandemic but accessibility to the internet has always been an issue in my opinion, for any age group. The internet is wonderful but when so many services move online you kind of wonder how people in Britain with limited/no internet access feel.


This is me, and I still only do basics online. If I can deal over the phone or by post I do.

I refuse to pay for anything online. If there's no other option, I don't have it


----------



## Lurcherlad

Siskin said:


> Can't say I'm confused


Like you, I think I've managed to understand the rules as we've gone along and pretty much followed them to the letter.

I don't think they've always been crystal clear though nor has everyone been totally confident that the authorities have got full control of the situation.

Such a serious issue shouldn't be "political" but it most definitely is from what I see… to all of our detriment.

I do think some people (maybe without instant access to the internet for easy clarification) have struggled to be sure of the latest rules. I've checked online many times. There have been so many changes and back tracks … and flouting by those "at the top" who should lead by example.

Then there are the element of society who have just ignored whatever rules don't fit in with their lifestyle.

I think masks in public indoor spaces, along with SD and hand sanitisers will be with me for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> I,d like to see some here make decisions every few days about every aspect of life and get it all perfect! While dealing with a multitude of other issues, including a global pandemic!


But that is their job & there are plenty of advisors from many sectors to help with decisions. There also should be plans in place for disasters/pandemics/terrorist attacks, etc so again it's not as if they were starting blindly. I accept that this is a global pandemic but some of the decisions made even I as a non-expert can see were madness.

I am still so angry about how badly some people were treated, how they were pushed to one side as if they weren't important, how people died or had failing health because they didn't have Covid so again weren't considered important, how people missed out on seeing loved ones in their final weeks & how so many people in positions of power benefited from back handed deals.

And btw I am not saying Labour would have done better (I am most definitely not a supporter after their latest policies)


----------



## Happy Paws2

Cleo38 said:


> But that is their job & *there are plenty of advisors from many sectors to help with decisions.* There also should be plans in place for disasters/pandemics/terrorist attacks, etc so again it's not as if they were starting blindly. I accept that this is a global pandemic but some of the decisions made even I as a non-expert can see were madness.
> 
> And btw I am not saying Labour would have done better (I am most definitely not a supporter after their latest policies)


True but they don't always take any notice of what t hey are been told.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> It felt like everything is online when there is a substantial part of our society who are not by age or circumstances


I know: my two immediate neighbours, both in their eighties, are completely unable to fathom anything like online shopping. Fortunately, though, one has close family and the other has a lady friend who looks after him and both are physically able to get out to the shops if need be.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> Isn't that always the case though? I agree that it's been much more pronounced during the pandemic but accessibility to the internet has always been an issue in my opinion, for any age group. The internet is wonderful but when so many services move online you kind of wonder how people in Britain with limited/no internet access feel.
> 
> But! I do think we (societal we) treat older people not very great at all. Especially during the pandemic. The government, in my opinion, don't seem to care about improving quality of life for them.


Yes, I agree.

The podcast that I co-present had an episode on ageing pre-pandemic. Our guests were women who had no children and caring for ageing parents whilst having to live with the thought that nobody would be there for them. That's another crisis that was highlighted in the pandemic as families became isolated from those they care for and that person reliant on a system with no support. It's different circumstances but if we are to live with Covid - and bearing in mind that Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of Wellcome Trust says the UK is closer to the start than the end - it's a conversation that needs to be had. One of many though.

I am going to age alone and as much as I can, I'm trying to put in place arrangements but it's so difficult.

BTW If anyone else is affected by ageing alone then there's a great charity called Ageing Well Without Children who are there for anyone who is childless not by choice, childfree or by estrangement and needs advice or support.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> I know: my two immediate neighbours, both in their eighties, are completely unable to fathom anything like online shopping. Fortunately, though, one has close family and the other has a lady friend who looks after him and both are physically able to get out to the shops if need be.


My husband. He's sailed through life and had to get online as it was the only way to watch his football team.. as you can tell food was not his main drive to get online...

In all seriousness, he does have me. Poor soul but I'm good for most online and tech.

Prior to the pandemic, I did some teaching at a local charity to get people online with a Mac or iPad and the waiting list was long (ironically my husband was my worse student but then isn' there a rule about never teaching someone you love to drive?!)

There's a term which is anyone born before 1985 is a digital immigrant as in online wasn't part of our lives. Those born after 1985 are digital natives, having grown up only in a world defined by the internet and smart devices.


----------



## Jacknmack10

MilleD said:


> Please don't call me "hun".
> 
> It's everyone else using the hindsight.


Oh dear. . I never meant to anger anyone, nor do I want to derail a thread. Calling people love or hun is a habit, never thinking it may be taken the wrong way, sorry.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jacknmack10 said:


> Oh dear. . I never meant to anger anyone, nor do I want to derail a thread. Calling people love or hun is a habit, never thinking it may be taken the wrong way, sorry.


I wouldn't worry about it, I think there is more important things going on at the moment than to worry about what someone calls you.


----------



## Jacknmack10

Just my opinion but while ever enough people jump to defend the government they will keep putting our lives in danger. It's a governments place to protect the public not shirk responsibility and dole out mixed messages. It's been difficult for governments across the world dealing with the pandemic but we had more time to prepare than many. Johnson's strategy was here immunity and, covertly, imo, it still is.

The government know they can get away with anything. Like giving access to the US private insurance industry to take over NHS budgets. How many more people will suffer and die before they'll be held accountable.


----------



## Jacknmack10

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, I think there is more important things going on at the moment than to worry about what someone calls you.


I know. Thank you.


----------



## kimthecat

Jacknmack10 said:


> I know. Thank you.


If you're not happy with something , you're allowed to point it out,


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> My husband. He's sailed through life and had to get online as it was the only way to watch his football team.. as you can tell food was not his main drive to get online...
> 
> In all seriousness, he does have me. Poor soul but I'm good for most online and tech.
> 
> Prior to the pandemic, I did some teaching at a local charity to get people online with a Mac or iPad and the waiting list was long (ironically my husband was my worse student but then isn' there a rule about never teaching someone you love to drive?!)
> 
> There's a term which is anyone born before 1985 is a digital immigrant as in online wasn't part of our lives. Those born after 1985 are digital natives, having grown up only in a world defined by the internet and smart devices.


I'm glad that there at teaching initiatives at colleges and libraries for this sort of thing. The issue I have is is that if we don't crack the technological education disparity between generations now, then it will continue on into the future. In 50 years time when I am 70 will I be up to date with whatever new technology there is? Will I have the access or ability to learn about it? With the world increasingly reliant on technology this will be a huge ongoing issue. I do not like the idea of excluding someone based upon age or accessibility.

And the issue about ageing alone is a huge deal. Especially as more and more people choose to not have children alongside those who are childless not by choice. Scotland's birthrate is tanking as are many other countries and our western societies keep pushing elderly people into isolation in care homes. While they have a place I think our relationship with ageing is dysfunctional. The pandemic has definitely highlighted this as many people seem to have realised how isolated some individuals are (also through factors other than ageing!).


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I'm glad that there at teaching initiatives at colleges and libraries for this sort of thing. The issue I have is is that if we don't crack the technological education disparity between generations now, then it will continue on into the future. In 50 years time when I am 70 will I be up to date with whatever new technology there is? Will I have the access or ability to learn about it? With the world increasingly reliant on technology this will be a huge ongoing issue. I do not like the idea of excluding someone based upon age or accessibility.
> 
> And the issue about ageing alone is a huge deal. Especially as more and more people choose to not have children alongside those who are childless not by choice. Scotland's birthrate is tanking as are many other countries and our western societies keep pushing elderly people into isolation in care homes. While they have a place I think our relationship with ageing is dysfunctional. The pandemic has definitely highlighted this as many people seem to have realised how isolated some individuals are (also through factors other than ageing!).


Totally agree on all counts. It's like the We'll Meet Again being sung in care homes... we're have Sex Pistol fans in the ageing demographic. 

The bit that frustrates me is that all those teaching programs are charity and donation led. And I struggle now, block chains WTF is that? And 50& of my business is digital. It's a hidden narrative along with the concept that we all have family support - one only has to look at the Xmas family oriented advertising to get an idea of how it's ignored in advertising. It's not sexy or saleable, there's no money to be made and it drops down the list. Yet.... as you say it will grow, not just because of medical or physical but choices due to the climate emergency and pandemic.


----------



## ForestWomble

MollySmith said:


> My husband. He's sailed through life and had to get online as it was the only way to watch his football team.. as you can tell food was not his main drive to get online...
> 
> In all seriousness, he does have me. Poor soul but I'm good for most online and tech.
> 
> Prior to the pandemic, I did some teaching at a local charity to get people online with a Mac or iPad and the waiting list was long (ironically my husband was my worse student but then isn' there a rule about never teaching someone you love to drive?!)
> 
> *There's a term which is anyone born before 1985 is a digital immigrant as in online wasn't part of our lives. Those born after 1985 are digital natives, having grown up only in a world defined by the internet and smart devices*.


That saying surprises me. I was born 1987 and I didn't even see a computer until I was about 10 years old, that was when the school first got computers, saying that though when we went to our very first lesson the teacher told us to turn our computers on and I'm thinking 'how?' while everyone else just pressed something. 
In Year 8 (13 years old) we had to do a history project and I was the only one that did the entire project by hand, apparently I was downgraded due to the fact that I never used a computer, my parents were told that I needed access to a computer as more work would need to be, at least, partially, done on one. 
Even now there isn't much I know how to do on a computer, my dad is better with computers then I am.


----------



## Lurcherlad

When I started work in 1977 aged 17 I had an Adler electric typewriter (in school I learned to type on a manual) and we were still using a Gestetner … a duplicating machine invented in 1879!


----------



## Siskin

When I started in the bank at the age of 18 I used a simple adding machine which was hand cranked. Statements were on a large card, 12” by 18”) which was posted into a special machine where the operator could add on any new debits or credits. If a mistake was made then the whole card would have to be redone on a fresh one. These statements cards were kept in the bank in big files. If a customer wanted to see their statement then one of the clerks (usually me) had to go upstairs, find the card, put it in a special leather envelope with a plastic window and run back down again to the customer. Once they had finished I had to do the above in reverse. 
Next job didn’t see the introduction of computers into offices until about 1975. We only had one which had its own room and kept under lock and key. If you needed to use it you had to ask permission, get the key and sign yourself in and out of the room. This was largely to do with where I worked which was bound by the official secrets act.


----------



## MollySmith

ForestWomble said:


> That saying surprises me. I was born 1987 and I didn't even see a computer until I was about 10 years old, that was when the school first got computers, saying that though when we went to our very first lesson the teacher told us to turn our computers on and I'm thinking 'how?' while everyone else just pressed something.
> In Year 8 (13 years old) we had to do a history project and I was the only one that did the entire project by hand, apparently I was downgraded due to the fact that I never used a computer, my parents were told that I needed access to a computer as more work would need to be, at least, partially, done on one.
> Even now there isn't much I know how to do on a computer, my dad is better with computers then I am.


It comes a report or study by some academic body or another. It doesn't necessarily mean that pre 1985 can't it's just that it wasn't part of the primary school curriculum I think… I probably need to find the link (ironic!)

edited - blimey it's a long study, here's a better, shorter summary (as a digital immigrant I reserve the right to say ooooh me eyes aren't so good anymore)

https://www.techopedia.com/definition/28139/digital-immigrant


----------



## MollySmith

Horribly appropriate but poignant post from Cold War Steve this week.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, I think there is more important things going on at the moment than to worry about what someone calls you.


Charming.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Charming.


True all the same.


----------



## Magyarmum

When I started work in 1956 we didn't even have a calculator. I wrote up all the company ledgers manually with pen and ink and had to add up the totals in my head. No room for errors! Invoices were hand written and statements done on a manual typewriter. A couple of years ago I spent time teaching my 25 year old granddaughter mental arithmetic, something she'd never been taught at school. Amazing really how we survived without smartphones and computers but then we were taught to exercise our brains.

My husband worked for IBM first for their typewriter division and was issued with a golfball typewriter to demonstrate to his customers which my 6 year old son and I learnt to type on. In 1975 he moved to their computer division and helped launch the "systems 32" computer in South Africa which was the size of a small cupboard. I didn't become computer literate until about 1988 and then only to do accounts As South Africa was later than the UK getting internet it wasn't until the mid 90's that I started to use it for work and pleasure. 

Even though I say it myself I'm pretty competent sorting out any problems I might have on my laptop but not so much on my mobile, but that's because having no signal in my village I only use it for emergency use.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> True all the same.


Yet we have a whole long thread about petty things we dislike.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Yet we have a whole long thread about petty things we dislike.


That's where this should be.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I,d like to see some here make decisions every few days about every aspect of life and get it all perfect!


I think the govt is taking the bashing, having themselves received poor advice. The example that comes to mind: Rishi Sunak, in a well-intentioned attempt to get restaurants back up and running came up with the ''Eat out to help out'' scheme which was great, and I don't know about anyone else, but in our neck of the woods people were queueing round the block on the days involved. The result was that the cases rocketed again because people were mixing and socialising much more than usual. In my opinion, one of the so-called ''experts'' should have had a word in his ear and said good idea, but . . . RS has no medical background but should have been advised by someone who had.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's where this should be.


Yes, either there or in a private message maybe would have been better?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Yes, either there or in a private message maybe would have been better?


What done is done and now should be left in the past.


----------



## StormyThai

Calvine said:


> RS has no medical background but should have been advised by someone who had.


The government had plenty of advice from plenty of people with medical backgrounds that the scheme was a bad idea...but the economy mattered more at that point in time.

"However, when asked if he had any regrets about the scheme, Sunak told the Sun: "Definitely not. We had an industry that I care deeply about because of employment. It's over two million people."

In early September, the i newspaper reported that Sunak's Eat Out to Help Out has cost £522m, and given the government around £250m in financial benefits."

The government have a whole panel of experts to draw from...it's not the experts fault if those in power choose to ignore the advice.


----------



## Calvine

StormyThai said:


> The government had plenty of advice from plenty of people with medical backgrounds that the scheme was a bad idea...but the economy mattered more at that point in time.
> 
> "However, when asked if he had any regrets about the scheme, Sunak told the Sun: "Definitely not. We had an industry that I care deeply about because of employment. It's over two million people."
> 
> In early September, the i newspaper reported that Sunak's Eat Out to Help Out has cost £522m, and given the government around £250m in financial benefits."
> 
> The government have a whole panel of experts to draw from...it's not the experts fault if those in power choose to ignore the advice.


OK


----------



## willa

So Boris Johnson has been dressed up as a Police Officer, going to a real life drugs raid.
Whatever next for this clueless clown

I though impersonating a Police Officer is illegal anyway


----------



## £54etgfb6

willa said:


> So Boris Johnson has been dressed up as a Police Officer, going to a real life drugs raid.
> Whatever next for this clueless clown
> 
> I though impersonating a Police Officer is illegal anyway


I don't know what use he would be there without formal training. If anything his life would be at risk during a raid and police officers would have to divide their efforts between the raid and protecting him. I saw No. 10 want to increase prison capacities to hold more drug addicts/dealers and also want to take passports away from drug addicts. This country will do anything but view drug addicts as humans. Prison sentences do not work in regards to rehabilitation and long-term abstinence. Treating addicts like criminals further dehumanises them, excludes them from society, and worsens the issue. It may not be relevant to covid but it is a topic I've long had issues with so these new proposals have gotten to me- a lot!


----------



## kimthecat

willa said:


> So Boris Johnson has been dressed up as a Police Officer, going to a real life drugs raid.
> Whatever next for this clueless clown
> 
> I though impersonating a Police Officer is illegal anyway


If he does actually do something about the drug dealing and Country lines problem , he can dress up as Minnie mouse for all I care .


----------



## kimthecat

bmr10 said:


> I don't know what use he would be there without formal training. If anything his life would be at risk during a raid and police officers would have to divide their efforts between the raid and protecting him. I saw No. 10 want to increase prison capacities to hold more drug addicts/dealers and also want to take passports away from drug addicts. This country will do anything but view drug addicts as humans. Prison sentences do not work in regards to rehabilitation and long-term abstinence. Treating addicts like criminals further dehumanises them, excludes them from society, and worsens the issue. It may not be relevant to covid but it is a topic I've long had issues with so these new proposals have gotten to me- a lot!


Have you a link to the full list of what they will be doing . I just saw a bit on the BBC red button and it says the Government is to provide rehab for 300,000 drug addicts and invest in combating Country lines though whether the money they are spending will be enough . Not all drug dealers are addicts, those that aren't deserve to be in prison for the misery they peddle.


----------



## StormyThai

bmr10 said:


> I don't know what use he would be there without formal training. If anything his life would be at risk during a raid and police officers would have to divide their efforts between the raid and protecting him. I saw No. 10 want to increase prison capacities


Nothing like a bit of virtue signalling with some press coverage to make one feel like one is making a difference 

Interesting to see that he still hasn't worked out how to wear a mask properly


----------



## Lurcherlad

Calvine said:


> OK


And this goes to show that we have no chance of deciding who to believe or trust in any of this.

No matter what anyone says, there always seems to be a counter argument 

:Bag


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> And this goes to show that we have no chance of deciding who to believe or trust in any of this.
> 
> No matter what anyone says, there always seems to be a counter argument
> 
> :Bag


 Exactly .


----------



## StormyThai

Lurcherlad said:


> And this goes to show that we have no chance of deciding who to believe or trust in any of this.
> 
> No matter what anyone says, there always seems to be a counter argument
> 
> :Bag


Personally I found the comment dismissive and a bit rude as it is easy enough to find out that the mp in question had countless experts to draw from (many more that average Joe has) but couldn't be bothered to respond at the time.
-shrugs-


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> No matter what anyone says, there always seems to be a counter argument


 Indeed - if you trawl for long enough you'll come up with a few facts and figures.


----------



## Calvine

StormyThai said:


> -shrugs-


In my opinion, this ^^^^^^ could be construed as extremely dismissive.


----------



## StormyThai

Yes brushing off a post that I find rude could be construed as dismissive


----------



## willa

Now apparently the Government held a Christmas party last December . Whilst 500 people died that day & all the public were told to stay at home. People died alone, yet the Government were partying


----------



## MollySmith

willa said:


> View attachment 480222
> Now apparently the Government held a Christmas party last December . Whilst 500 people died that day & all the public were told to stay at home. People died alone, yet the Government were partying


Conveniently in the news today as the Government try to get a third reading of the policing bill which has the power to close us all down from protest.

Of course they are wrong for their double standards but they can't change the past, but they can distract us - as usual - from other stuff. Much like Boris and his Benny Hill impressions, and the CBI talk distracted us from the first and second readings of the policing bill.

More on that here
https://www.bigissue.com/news/activism/how-you-can-resist-the-governments-draconian-policing-bill/


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


>


Brilliant


----------



## MollySmith

I predicted here and on social media that this government would let their electorate down and drag the rest with them, I never realised how callous and murderous they are. This has to be the end of Johnson but surely Rees-Mogg and most of the cabinet? For once I don’t think the PM should be the sole scapegoat.

I really try hard to see the good in anything but this is…. Good luck to anyone who wants to try and defend them. Perhaps hindsight is a closer relationship to ignorance than I had realised. Blood on their hands for it’s not just the double standard but how many more cases did partygate create


----------



## Jesthar

Stolen from social media:

"Other people obeyed the rules..."


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> I predicted here and on social media that this government would let their electorate down and drag the rest with them, I never realised how callous and murderous they are. This has to be the end of Johnson but surely Rees-Mogg and most of the cabinet? For once I don't think the PM should be the sole scapegoat.
> 
> I really try hard to see the good in anything but this is…. Good luck to anyone who wants to try and defend them. Perhaps hindsight is a closer relationship to ignorance than I had realised. Blood on their hands for it's not just the double standard but how many more cases did partygate create


The fact that they laugh in the leaked video as if it's a trivial matter. It's always been one rule for them and one rule for us but the joy they find in the knowledge that they are putting people at risk is deeply uncomfortable to watch. People will excuse it and then complain about the restrictions being introduced and the likely lockdown coming this year. As you said, how many more cases occurred as a result of their pointless meet up? And how many people went without seeing their families or friends last Christmas while the upper echelon stayed an almighty 2 inches from each other.

How anyone can think a political party, particularly the conservatives, has the public's best interests at heart amazes me and I'm convinced they're either under the effect of ignorance or Stockholm syndrome. In my opinion, the government would happily watch the public die (and planned to with herd immunity) as long as it didn't burn a hole in their pockets. We are nothing but a money making machine to them.


----------



## £54etgfb6

kimthecat said:


> Have you a link to the full list of what they will be doing . I just saw a bit on the BBC red button and it says the Government is to provide rehab for 300,000 drug addicts and invest in combating Country lines though whether the money they are spending will be enough . Not all drug dealers are addicts, those that aren't deserve to be in prison for the misery they peddle.


Whilst I agree that dealers who are not using drugs and purely doing so for money deserve harsh sentences this is really a rare occurrence. To get into the position of dealing you have to have a network of drug users, other dealers, and suppliers. Getting into the network without having built the connections from your own drug usage would be difficult and once in this network resisting the temptation to try any of the drugs would be even harder. Like you, his interview with the BBC is the only source I could/can find.

While what he is proposing in the video sounds well and good, the government's continuous privatisation and underfunding of the NHS says otherwise. Those most vulnerable to drug use are those facing hardships in life or experiencing mental health issues. There is no way this issue can ever be effectively improved if the underlying trigger is not addressed. Mental health issues are on the rise and this will only further the drug problem. The conservatives refuse to sufficiently fund the NHS, with waiting times for referrals/treatment over a year long. Within that time about a third will turn up at A&E as they have already reached crisis point. Prevention is better than rehabilitation and if someone's mental health issues cannot be properly addressed and treated then rehabilitation will not work anyway.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone watch PM questions, I've never heard such a disgrace with his answers, he just doesn't seem to realise how people feel about the behaviour at No.10 last Christmas as people were dying and obeying the rules they were having a party.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone watch PM questions, I've never heard such a disgrace with his answers, he just doesn't seem to realise how people feel about the behaviour at No.10 last Christmas as people were dying and obeying the rules they were having a party.


He says that disciplinary action will be taken if the claims turn out to be true- where was the disciplinary action when Hancock was caught breaking lockdown rules and unnecessarily travelling across the country to different homes? He only stepped down when public pressure got so severe. There is no disciplinary action taken against those at the top. They look out solely for their own. An investigation may be carried out but it will most likely lead nowhere and will be buried beneath other headlines purposefully created by the government to distract people.


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> He says that disciplinary action will be taken if the claims turn out to be true- where was the disciplinary action when Hancock was caught breaking lockdown rules and unnecessarily travelling across the country to different homes? He only stepped down when public pressure got so severe. There is no disciplinary action taken against those at the top. They look out solely for their own. An investigation may be carried out but it will most likely lead nowhere and will be buried beneath other headlines purposefully created by the government to distract people.


What he says and what he does are two different things, so we'll have to wait and see what and if he does do anything.

 _Edited for spelling _


----------



## MollySmith

He’s furious that someone has leaked it. He'll get a report throw some aides under a bus, continue to lock down the right to protest with the third reading of the police bill and the opposition parties are ineffective because too many people voted for the 'Christmas Party' and they have a majority.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> Like you, his interview with the BBC is the only source I could/can find.


Sound very much like the Christmas Party are trying to distract us again?

According to a few rumours, there was a BBC Journalist at Westminster last Xmas, and hacks from the Sun and Daily Wail. The Sun have completely avoided the party in their headlines today but seem to have given opposition parties some ammunition post COP26 over energy I believe - I refuse to click on any Murdoch owned paper or Daily Wail.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> He's furious that someone has leaked it. He'll get a report throw some aides under a bus, continue to lock down the right to protest with the third reading of the police bill and the opposition parties are ineffective because too many people voted for them and they have a majority.


Thank goodness they have. They can get on and govern rather than be hamstrung like Theresa was. Now that was a debacle, and the other parties were playing politics rather than allowing government to govern

Be careful what you wish for.........


----------



## willa

What a day this has been !

What a mess the Government are in. 
I watched PMQ’s, found myself shouting & swearing at the TV.

And now Johnson is doing a press conference at 6pm - some will see this as a distraction. Will the public even comply with Plan B ?


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Thank goodness they have. They can get on and govern rather than be hamstrung like Theresa was. Now that was a debacle, and the other parties were playing politics rather than allowing government to govern
> 
> Be careful what you wish for.........


_They can get on and govern _

That is what they were meant to be doing from the point of being elected. I admire your efforts at defence though. I don't imagine the relatives of the 500 people who died on the day this party is said to have been held which Boris says wasn't (possibly lying in parliament) feel the same.


----------



## MollySmith

willa said:


> What a day this has been !
> 
> What a mess the Government are in.
> I watched PMQ's, found myself shouting & swearing at the TV.
> 
> And now Johnson is doing a press conference at 6pm - some will see this as a distraction. Will the public even comply with Plan B ?


We have a plan B? I'm intrigued to know what that is given plan A seemed to be leading us to the slaughter whilst having a shindig.

I'm at a protest for the policing bill at the moment.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> They can get on and govern.


Sorry but really :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> _They can get on and govern _
> 
> That is what they were meant to be doing from the point of being elected. I admire your efforts at defence though. I don't imagine the relatives of the 500 people who died on the day this party is said to have been held which Boris says wasn't (possibly lying in parliament) feel the same.


Exactly! I was listening to Jeremey Vine on R" as I took the dogs out & heard the audio clip of Allegra Stratton giggling over the party as if it was just a bit of fun. Absolutely disgusting! Then there were stories of ordinary people who had lost relatives who they hadn't seen as they did obey the rules ..... I felt physically sick listening to this.

My mum died without her family around her as visitors weren't allowed due to Covid restrictions (which still haunts me every day) but I still consider myself luckier than some as I chose to ignore the rules & continued to see her when she was at home. Also the hospice she was inf for a while allowed a certain visitors, some people I know did not have this option

These absolute @rseholes in government have no idea what so many people have had to deal with & hearing about them breaking the rules yet again is a kick in the face for alot of people


----------



## MilleD

I don't understand how some people think that the prime minister knows exactly what goes on in every aspect of government work.

I work in local authority. I'm pretty sure my chief exec has not a clue what I do on a day to day basis.

Don't get me wrong, I'll treat the rules the same way as them if it's properly proven, but can't see where that info is going to come from.

No doubt someone who knows better will patronise me into the fact I know nothing.

But overall, despite people not caring, I will still endeavour to protect everyone around me.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> _They can get on and govern _
> 
> That is what they were meant to be doing from the point of being elected. I admire your efforts at defence though. I don't imagine the relatives of the 500 people who died on the day this party is said to have been held which Boris says wasn't (possibly lying in parliament) feel the same.


Exactly.

Do they have to be told?!


----------



## Pawscrossed

MilleD said:


> I don't understand how some people think that the prime minister knows exactly what goes on in every aspect of government work.
> 
> I work in local authority. I'm pretty sure my chief exec has not a clue what I do on a day to day basis.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'll treat the rules the same way as them if it's properly proven, but can't see where that info is going to come from.
> 
> No doubt someone who knows better will patronise me into the fact I know nothing.
> 
> But overall, despite people not caring, I will still endeavour to protect everyone around me.


It isn't about him knowing, crystal balls or hindsight which seems to be the most common defence. But it's about telling people what to do and leading by example! Families who were unable to meet, whilst Number 10 ignoring the rules. That has nothing to do with knowledge, it is the acts allegedly carried out by Boris, his cabinet and advisors.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Thank goodness they have. They can get on and govern rather than be hamstrung like Theresa was. Now that was a debacle, and the other parties were playing politics rather than allowing government to govern
> 
> Be careful what you wish for.........


Hilarious!


----------



## kimthecat

willa said:


> What a day this has been !
> 
> What a mess the Government are in.
> I watched PMQ's, found myself shouting & swearing at the TV.
> 
> And now Johnson is doing a press conference at 6pm - some will see this as a distraction. Will the public even comply with Plan B ?


I forgot to watch it . What did he say ?

ETA to add its Plan B what ever that is . Twitter saying the Government are doing this to distract from Partygate.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> I don't understand how some people think that the prime minister knows exactly what goes on in every aspect of government work.
> 
> I work in local authority. I'm pretty sure my chief exec has not a clue what I do on a day to day basis.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'll treat the rules the same way as them if it's properly proven, but can't see where that info is going to come from.
> 
> No doubt someone who knows better will patronise me into the fact I know nothing.
> 
> But overall, despite people not caring, I will still endeavour to protect everyone around me.


I heard somewhere that the PM put his head round the door where the party was and said it's bit crowded in here and went away.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> No doubt someone who knows better will patronise me into the fact I know nothing.


 Yep; bet yer life they will . . . there are a lot of colossal egos on this thread, @MilleD. And a lot of people who like to twist what you say so they can dismiss it!! Never mind, eh?


----------



## Blackadder

MilleD said:


> I don't understand how some people think that the prime minister knows exactly what goes on in every aspect of government work.
> 
> I work in local authority. I'm pretty sure my chief exec has not a clue what I do on a day to day basis.


Last week he denied a "party" had taken place & pretty much dismissed it. Today he's launching an investigation into a "party" that didn't happen?

He's had a week to find out exactly what went on, can anyone really believe he didn't know in his own back yard?

I'm pretty sure your chief exec doesn't know what you do during the work day but there's a small chance he/she would notice if around 50 people had a party in his/her house?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oh, BJ a liar? Two faced coward?
Who would have thought !!!:Banghead
So there are rules for the common people and no rules for them?
Surprise!!!!


----------



## MollySmith

The fallout is very frightening as it’s created a huge divide if social media is anything to go by.

The we will not comply camp who began as anti-vax and are being joined by those who have been vaccinated but are mistrusting of boosters and vaccine passports (if I’m completely honest, I’m not convinced of endless boosters, that can’t be sustained surely?). The more that group grow, so the virus does as they’re refusing to wear a mask or comply with government instructions. Currently trending on Twitter and the demographic is wide.

Add to this that The Wellcome Trust put us closer to the start not the end despite the vaccine, we’re pretty f**ked. At what point can a lack of confidence be declared in a government? Something has to change radically to get back control as it’s rapidly disappearing on all sides.

And meanwhile they are trying to pass - and because they have a majority likely will - the Nationality and Borders Bill and Police and Crime Bill. This all serves as a helpful distraction.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> I don't understand how some people think that the prime minister knows exactly what goes on in every aspect of government work.
> 
> I work in local authority. I'm pretty sure my chief exec has not a clue what I do on a day to day basis.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'll treat the rules the same way as them if it's properly proven, but can't see where that info is going to come from.
> 
> No doubt someone who knows better will patronise me into the fact I know nothing.
> 
> But overall, despite people not caring, I will still endeavour to protect everyone around me.


Yes, agree all we can do is protect those around us. Best we can do and I'm glad you said that, a good reality check.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Ha! Anyone seen the Ant & Dec thing on socials? Quite funny…


----------



## kimthecat

On the BBC news tonight , 5 out of 6 covid patients are unvaccinated .

The Government did wrong and should set by example , we could have done without this crises.

Understandably people are very upset but to say , I'm not going to wear a mask etc because of it is something a child should say .
It doesnt punish the staff who were at the party , it punishes people who will become sick and the staff who have to care for them .

@MollySmith said


> At what point can a lack of confidence be declared in a government? Something has to change radically to get back control as it's rapidly disappearing on all sides.


I dont know. What would happen if it was declared? Its just chaos now but would it help if it was declared.


----------



## MilleD

Blackadder said:


> Last week he denied a "party" had taken place & pretty much dismissed it. Today he's launching an investigation into a "party" that didn't happen?
> 
> He's had a week to find out exactly what went on, can anyone really believe he didn't know in his own back yard?
> 
> I'm pretty sure your chief exec doesn't know what you do during the work day but there's a small chance he/she would notice if around 50 people had a party in his/her house?


You know that downing Street isn't actually some ones house? It's a place of work. So no, if it was the same set up then my chief exec wouldn't have clue if something was going on

And what it looks like is that what he has done to look into into it has shown he doesn't know what goes on.

Don't forget there has still not actually been any proof of anything.

Don't worry though, if they didn't follow the rules, I won't be either, and that will fix everything right? 

.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> On the BBC news tonight , 5 out of 6 covid patients are unvaccinated .
> 
> The Government did wrong and should set by example , we could have done without this crises.
> 
> Understandably people are very upset but to say , I'm not going to wear a mask etc because of it is something a child should say .
> It doesnt punish the staff who were at the party , it punishes people who will become sick and the staff who have to care for them .
> 
> @MollySmith said
> 
> I dont know. What would happen if it was declared? Its just chaos now but would it help if it was declared.


Good point, it's hard to know what next. I mean look at page 1 of the Covid thread!

Maybe a new PM is enough but I guess that depends on fallout as he said he doesn't know so one has to accept it's truth until proven otherwise, but if the party... again assuming it happened.. involved the cabinet or senior ministers then that's big but how big. I guess that's when 1922 committee turn up. So far it's all alleged and I'm still of the mind the government are eeking it for the greater long term gain of the two bills. Make us all terrified about Omicron so we dare not protest about the bill and angry about party gate and next thing we're in a police state.


----------



## MilleD

Blackadder said:


> Last week he denied a "party" had taken place & pretty much dismissed it. Today he's launching an investigation into a "party" that didn't happen?
> 
> He's had a week to find out exactly what went on, can anyone really believe he didn't know in his own back yard?
> 
> I'm pretty sure your chief exec doesn't know what you do during the work day but there's a small chance he/she would notice if around 50 people had a party in his/her house?


What do you care if you think this anyway?



Blackadder said:


> The whole world has spent 2 years doing what it thinks it needs to do & where are we? Lockdowns don't work, I seriously doubt masks have any great effect, Covid passports are a complete nonsense.... the only thing that has had a big impact is the Vaccine!
> 
> To me, it's a case of Governments wanting to be seen doing something....whether it actually has a positive effect seems to be irrelevant.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> I heard somewhere that the PM put his head round the door where the party was and said it's bit crowded in here and went away.


Proof?


----------



## Jaf

MilleD said:


> You know that downing Street isn't actually some ones house? It's a place of work. So no, if it was the same set up then my chief exec wouldn't have clue if something was going on
> 
> And what it looks like is that what he has done to look into into it has shown he doesn't know what goes on.
> 
> Don't forget there has still not actually been any proof of anything.
> 
> Don't worry though, if they didn't follow the rules, I won't be either, and that will fix everything right?
> 
> .


I remember Boris renovating his downing street flat. So yes he does live there.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Proof?


Sorry....just heard it on the news the other day no sure what channel it was on.. there has been so much said about it.


----------



## kimthecat

Jaf said:


> I remember Boris renovating his downing street flat. So yes he does live there.


True. Its a massive place. It has a hundred rooms and his flat is on the third floor in case anyone is interested. .


----------



## MilleD

Jaf said:


> I remember Boris renovating his downing street flat. So yes he does live there.


He may have an abode there, but it still isn't someone's house, and it's just one place he can stay.

Plan b seemed to be not that much considering.

Wonder what plan b plus will be....


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> but to say , I'm not going to wear a mask etc because of it is something a child should say


I remember back at the beginning of the first lockdown people were saying how it was ''bringing out the best'' in people, but that also it was, in some cases, ''bringing out the worst''. I can understand people being infuriated at the hypocrisy they see (Dominic Cummings driving miles to ''test his eyesight'', Matt Hancock in a position that was clearly not socially distanced) but bringing oneself down to the same level is counter-productive to say the least. Also I find it a bit odd that DC himself didn't say something much earlier when he was bad-mouthing BJ. Others saying it was actually a ''Zoom'' party.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just seen this....
*
The Metropolitan Police says it is not investigating allegations No 10 staff broke Covid rules in December of last year due to "an absence of evidence".*

I'm sure if they tried hard enough they would.


----------



## kimthecat

People on media complaining about restrictions and saying they don't work, what does that leave , - erm , Herd Immunity ?  People complained about that though we do have vaccinations that a fair amount of people are refusing .
Round and round we go !

I feel a song coming on ,
Spandau Ballet
"Round and round it goes
And oh don't you know
This is the game that we came here for
Round and round it goes
And oh don't you know "


Talking of the flat at No 10
from the daily mirror 

"The Conservative Party was today fined £17,800 for breaching electoral law over the refurbishment of the Downing Street flat.
A long-awaited Electoral Commission probe found laws on the reporting of donations "were not followed" over the costly revamp.
The investigation found "serious failings in the party’s compliance systems," the Electoral Commission said.
The watchdog said: "The investigation found that the party failed to fully report a donation of £67,801.72 from Huntswood Associates Limited in October 2020. "


----------



## kimthecat

Carrie gave birth to a baby girl this a.m . Congrats to them. maybe Boris will take maternity leave.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Boris will take maternity leave.


Fingers crossed,eh?
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious My first laugh of the day, @kimthecat; thank you!
Nothing would surprise me any more.


----------



## Jaf

kimthecat said:


> True. Its a massive place. It has a hundred rooms and his flat is on the third floor in case anyone is interested. .


I've lived in massive council blocks. Can hear everyone when they have a party. Maybe some of the refurb money went on sound insulation?


----------



## Jaf

Just seen this.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jaf said:


> Just seen this.
> 
> View attachment 480286


Don't do that I nearly knock my glass over :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## ForestWomble

Don't know how true this is
Boris Johnson hints at compulsory Covid jabs in future (msn.com)

Copied from the link:

Boris Johnson last night hinted coronavirus jabs could eventually be made compulsory or Covid passes could be rolled out in wider society if a 'substantial proportion of the population' remains unvaccinated.

The Prime Minister announced the Government is now triggering its Plan B to reimpose work from home guidance, make masks compulsory in more indoor settings and require people to show a Covid pass to go to nightclubs.


----------



## Blitz

I never come on here as a rule but go to say what is wrong with England. Even the 'draconian' measures Boris announced do not quite bring them in line with the rest of the UK. I live in Scotland and we have to wear masks everywhere we go inside. You can take them off to eat and drink but have to put them on again when you stand up. It is automatic and no bother at all. We have to show passports at night clubs etc and that even includes something I was invited to (but am not going) at the local golf club because they will have music and bar open after midnight. A lot of older people are going so they have got their proof of vaccination for a one off use. No one minded. I would not go anywhere in England because there is no protection, at least in the rest of the UK there is a fighting chance you will not be coughed or breathed over and get covid when you are out enjoying yourself.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Blitz said:


> I never come on here as a rule but go to say what is wrong with England. Even the 'draconian' measures Boris announced do not quite bring them in line with the rest of the UK. I live in Scotland and we have to wear masks everywhere we go inside. You can take them off to eat and drink but have to put them on again when you stand up. It is automatic and no bother at all. We have to show passports at night clubs etc and that even includes something I was invited to (but am not going) at the local golf club because they will have music and bar open after midnight. A lot of older people are going so they have got their proof of vaccination for a one off use. No one minded. I would not go anywhere in England because there is no protection, at least in the rest of the UK there is a fighting chance you will not be coughed or breathed over and get covid when you are out enjoying yourself.


10000% yes!! I live in Scotland too and it boggles my mind how many of the public in England refuse to wear a mask when we've been doing it now for almost 2 years. I also cannot understand why the English gov decided to remove the requirement to wear them when they are not an issue to wear for most people in the first place. By looking at Scotland you can see that majority of people have been wearing masks with no issue so why can't the English public? I am so glad we have a devolved government and that the Scottish gov have kept up the enforcement of restrictions.


----------



## Magyarmum

Blitz said:


> I never come on here as a rule but go to say what is wrong with England. Even the 'draconian' measures Boris announced do not quite bring them in line with the rest of the UK. I live in Scotland and we have to wear masks everywhere we go inside. You can take them off to eat and drink but have to put them on again when you stand up. It is automatic and no bother at all. We have to show passports at night clubs etc and that even includes something I was invited to (but am not going) at the local golf club because they will have music and bar open after midnight. A lot of older people are going so they have got their proof of vaccination for a one off use. No one minded. I would not go anywhere in England because there is no protection, at least in the rest of the UK there is a fighting chance you will not be coughed or breathed over and get covid when you are out enjoying yourself.


I live in Hungary and we've had mandatory mask wearing for over a month now with more or less the same restrictions and rules that you've stated above. No one is complaining and a good percentage of people wear their masks walking in the street. Even though it isn't mandatory you also see a lot of young children wearing masks. Mask wearing seems to have become an accepted part of daily life here.


----------



## kimthecat

I wish Nicola Sturgeon was our PM . I've always been impressed by her .

The lunch time BBC news , there were other parties and a quiz night in November and December. :Jawdrop


----------



## Lurcherlad

I’m in England and happily wear a mask in crowded areas or indoors.

I don’t see why so many people have an issue with it.

Doctors and nurses have to wear them for whole shifts for goodness sake!

Twice recently I’ve walked into a cafe wearing a mask to be told by the owner I don’t need to …. Why would anyone say that?

I’m wearing the mask, so clearly don’t have an issue with it … so butt out! 

Masks should be encouraged …. not discouraged!

And Nicola Sturgeon? No thanks!


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> And Nicola Sturgeon? No thanks!


:Hilarious If Boris resigns or is ousted who would be capable of taking over ? There arent many, if any, that I trust.


----------



## MollySmith

ForestWomble said:


> Don't know how true this is
> Boris Johnson hints at compulsory Covid jabs in future (msn.com)
> 
> Copied from the link:
> 
> Boris Johnson last night hinted coronavirus jabs could eventually be made compulsory or Covid passes could be rolled out in wider society if a 'substantial proportion of the population' remains unvaccinated.
> 
> The Prime Minister announced the Government is now triggering its Plan B to reimpose work from home guidance, make masks compulsory in more indoor settings and require people to show a Covid pass to go to nightclubs.


Feels like a enforcement because he's lost control. It should be a positive thing, the vaccine but I can understand a reluctance to a small degree when the government's entire reliance is placed upon it against a backdrop of leaked stories about non-compliance. I am really uncertain that a three month vaccine is healthy or wise, or sustainable. There is a part of me that feels like some of us are test bunnies because of those who refuse to wear masks and muck about. If there was trust and science and medicine had been allowed to speak and lead, then perhaps there would be a level ground. But it's all hindsight which is a wonderfully frustrating thing.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious If Boris resigns or is ousted who would be capable of taking over ? There arent many, if any, that I trust.


My dog's bottom would do a better job.

I think Gove would be in with a chance maybe, at least he reads the briefing notes. Boris doesn't, I have on relatively good authority by someone who was once part of the Number 10 team when he was Foreign Secretary. Hence the CBI talk not being a surprise.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Lurcherlad said:


> And Nicola Sturgeon? No thanks!


She (and the SNPs) are definitely far from perfect in my opinion but I vote strategically each year to keep the conservatives out (which thankfully is not too difficult in Scotland) and I am grateful that, in general, Scottish laws are more progressive than the rest of the UK and I feel that there are worse people who could be leading our country currently. The Scottish gov seem to be keen to keep up restrictions so I'm hoping this continues, unfortunately I feel like this is a time of year that people are more likely to disagree with them (restrictions) though!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> My dog's arse would do a better job.


:Hilarious Imagine what PMs question time would be like.



> I think Gove would be in with a chance maybe, at least he reads the briefing notes. Boris doesn't, I have on relatively good authority by someone who was once part of the Number 10 team when he was Foreign Secretary. Hence the CBI talk not being a surprise.


perhaps but he stabbed Boris in the back and failed , I dont think I could trust a back stabber.


----------



## SusieRainbow

Just my own feelings here but I would hate this thread to be a newbies first impression of ths forum ! The language is quite offensive at times, is it really necessary?


----------



## rona

SusieRainbow said:


> Just my own feelings here but I would hate this thread to be a newbies first impression of ths forum ! The language is quite offensive at times, is it really necessary?


And insulting


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious If Boris resigns or is ousted who would be capable of taking over ? There arent many, if any, that I trust.


There's the rub


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious If Boris resigns or is ousted who would be capable of taking over ? There arent many, if any, that I trust.


Oh, 70 mln people and no one just?
Even Sodoma and Gomorrah fared better!!!
Why do we have to have a clown and a liar as a PM?
Same might have been said about Trump!!!
For me both are the same, lying, selfish demagogues.


----------



## SbanR

Lurcherlad said:


> And Nicola Sturgeon? No thanks


I would rather have Nicola than Boris


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Imagine what PMs question time would be like.
> 
> perhaps but he stabbed Boris in the back and failed , I dont think I could trust a back stabber.


Yes very true. Goodness it's not a lot of choice is it!

@SusieRainbow edited. I'm cross and Northern. The medieval behaviour of this _insulting_ government reduces me to medieval words.

I was being that cross I forgot to reply to your first comment @kimthecat - I don't think there would be a great deal of difference. She's going through an 'air biscuit' phase at ten years old so I imagine the sounds from the benches and my dog's bottom are difficult to distinguish. (put as politely as I can muster)


----------



## Lurcherlad

SbanR said:


> I would rather have Nicola than Boris


Neither appeal to me, frankly.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Imagine what PMs question time would be like.


It would probably make more sense, to be fair!


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> It would probably make more sense, to be fair!


Lady Molly thanks you very much (I don't think she realises how insulting that is, oh the bliss of being an upside down dog on a sofa)


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> It would probably make more sense, to be fair!


:Hilarious They'd have to have subtitles.


----------



## cheekyscrip

SbanR said:


> I would rather have Nicola than Boris


Yes. Absolutely. She has what he has not…


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> People on media complaining about restrictions and saying they don't work, what does that leave , - erm , Herd Immunity ?  People complained about that though we do have vaccinations that a fair amount of people are refusing .
> Round and round we go !
> 
> I feel a song coming on ,
> Spandau Ballet
> "Round and round it goes
> And oh don't you know
> This is the game that we came here for
> Round and round it goes
> And oh don't you know "


This popped up on my FB this evening, it made me give a little giggle, alsomade me wonder how many young people actually know the rythm to ' sing' it


----------



## MollySmith

Spoke to my mum last night and she wasn’t impressed by the partygate. 

They really ought to put her in charge of finding out, she was very good at this when I was a teenager.


----------



## rona

mrs phas said:


> This popped up on my FB this evening, it made me give a little giggle, alsomade me wonder how many young people actually know the rythm to ' sing' it
> 
> View attachment 480311


I'm an old person and I have no idea the rhythm to sing it too!!

What era does it come from?


----------



## MollySmith

What I thought sort of when I saw all the We Will Not Comply stuff but lack the intelligence to put into words. It's as much about the social fallout as the economic and medical.

A friend is reporting they have had 700 cover cancellations at his pub.


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> I'm an old person and I have no idea the rhythm to sing it too!!
> 
> What era does it come from?


Beats International - Dub Be Good To Me - YouTube

It was released in 1990.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Beats International - Dub Be Good To Me - YouTube
> 
> It was released in 1990.


Never heard of it


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> I am really uncertain that a three month vaccine is healthy


It's certainly healthy for Pfizer's profits . . . that's me being cynical, maybe.


----------



## mrs phas

rona said:


> I'm an old person and I have no idea the rhythm to sing it too!!
> 
> What era does it come from?


1990


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Spoke to my mum last night and she wasn't impressed by the partygate.
> 
> They really ought to put her in charge of finding out, she was very good at this when I was a teenager.


or my sister . She used to rat on me when I came home at 1 in the morning.


----------



## MollySmith

Former Speaker of the House of Commons John Bercow tells Great Morning Britain....that Boris Johnson "stinks in the nostrils of decent people". "The person in charge of the ship is charged with being a serial liar." "I've known several Prime Ministers in my time and Boris Johnson is the worst."

_Ouch_.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> or my sister . She used to rat on me when I came home at 1 in the morning.


My mum, your sister... sorted! My mum would know who was in the stationery cupboard with whom and behind the bike sheds by breakfast


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> A friend is reporting they have had 700 cover cancellations at his pub


And, in addition, the extra staff they had arranged to take on, expecting to need them, told they are no longer required. It's very sad. A friend of my son's from childhood, really lovely guy, is a restaurateur, took over a place which the previous owner had let slide, and has worked non-stop to get it where it is now - he's there in the early hours washing the floor and even the pavement outside. I just hope he can cope with all this. His father is in a position to help out financially if necessary; but not all people are so lucky


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> Former Speaker of the House of Commons John Bercow tells Great Morning Britain....that Boris Johnson "stinks in the nostrils of decent people". "The person in charge of the ship is charged with being a serial liar." "I've known several Prime Ministers in my time and Boris Johnson is the worst."
> 
> _Ouch_.


Well said John..


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> friend is reporting they have had 700 cover cancellations at his pub





Calvine said:


> And, in addition, the extra staff they had arranged to take on, expecting to need them, told they are no longer required. It's very sad. A friend of my son's from childhood, really lovely guy, is a restaurateur, took over a place which the previous owner had let slide, and has worked non-stop to get it where it is now - he's there in the early hours washing the floor and even the pavement outside.


My son, back at mine jic and still testing negative every morning, is in the same boat 
Started work as bar manager in September, (after being made redundant, when his previous employment went into administration after lockdown finally lifted for hospitality,)
October the pub was brought out by a private landlord, after the brewery decided to pull out.
He's now general pub manager, working 7 days a week, 14+hrs a day, no days off, doing everything from cellarman recieving deliveries at 6am, to cleaning after a 1am close, just him and chef, to keep the pub open and running 
Owner wants to employ new staff, but can't take the risk of having to lay them off straight away 
Plus,
No one wants to work hospitality anyway


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> My son, back at mine jic and still testing negative every morning, is in the same boat
> Started work as bar manager in September, (after being made redundant, when his previous employment went into administration after lockdown finally lifted for hospitality,)
> October the pub was brought out by a private landlord, after the brewery decided to pull out.
> He's now general pub manager, working 7 days a week, 14+hrs a day, no days off, doing everything from cellarman recieving deliveries at 6am, to cleaning after a 1am close, just him and chef, to keep the pub open and running
> Owner wants to employ new staff, but can't take the risk of having to lay them off straight away
> Plus,
> No one wants to work hospitality anyway


We went out on Monday to a very posh hotel for afternoon tea and the standard was awful. No staff around, impossible to pay... absolutely no point complaining as they were simply trying to do their best I think.

It's impossible I guess to know if Help Out To Eat Out was helpful or if it merely prolonged and escalated the infection, but it's extraordinary that people are currently guided to go to a shop with a mask on but go into a pub next door without. I don't think I'd feel like I was worth very much if I worked in hospitality.

I wish your son all the very best @mrs phas he must be exhausted. Pub work was already bad with power of the big breweries, and it's so much worse.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well said John..


What I don't understand is why he backed as a candidate for PM and voted in by the party. What little I knew of him wasn't very favourable and based on his TV stuff and some very strange column in... was it the Spectator? I forget. Unless they thought his connections with the media would be useful, they appear to have served him well until lately. The power of the media is frightening.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> It's impossible I guess to know if Help Out To Eat Out was helpful or if it merely prolonged and escalated the infection


The issue I had was that it rewarded being out in person instead of takeaways. Takeaways became more popular over lockdown anyway and they could have capitalised on this instead of encouraging people to go out into enclosed spaces.

If I were an optimistic person I'd say that perhaps they did it this way as people are more likely to spend money when in person but then clothing stores/gift shops were closed at the time so what exactly would these people be impulsively spending money on?

They could have definitely marketed healthy takeaways as a way to add excitement into lockdown life (providing you can afford it) but instead encouraged groups of people to meet in enclosed spaces. They missed the ball imo.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> The issue I had was that it rewarded being out in person instead of takeaways. Takeaways became more popular over lockdown anyway and they could have capitalised on this instead of encouraging people to go out into enclosed spaces.
> 
> If I were an optimistic person I'd say that perhaps they did it this way as people are more likely to spend money when in person but then clothing stores/gift shops were closed at the time so what exactly would these people be impulsively spending money on?
> 
> They could have definitely marketed healthy takeaways as a way to add excitement into lockdown life (providing you can afford it) but instead encouraged groups of people to meet in enclosed spaces. They missed the ball imo.


Yes, good point. I agree. I guess the only downside is the packaging with takeaway but less likely to have had cancellations and therefore money and food waste. And a friend began a business in Jan 2019 using completely natural products to create compostable takeaway containers and has done very well!

We have an amazing restaurant here whose waiting list is long and they went completely takeaway, the release of the bookings each week became a thing and I managed to get one for my birthday. I'd never had done that if it wasn't takeaway as we can't take our dog. Loads of opportunities came up for owners of nervous dogs or to eat from places that aren't dog friendly for practical reasons. I miss a few of them.


----------



## Psygon

bmr10 said:


> The issue I had was that it rewarded being out in person instead of takeaways. Takeaways became more popular over lockdown anyway and they could have capitalised on this instead of encouraging people to go out into enclosed spaces.
> 
> If I were an optimistic person I'd say that perhaps they did it this way as people are more likely to spend money when in person but then clothing stores/gift shops were closed at the time so what exactly would these people be impulsively spending money on?
> 
> They could have definitely marketed healthy takeaways as a way to add excitement into lockdown life (providing you can afford it) but instead encouraged groups of people to meet in enclosed spaces. They missed the ball imo.


The scheme had a policy intent to protect jobs in the hospitality sector. Which I would assume needs you to go to a location to eat rather than takeaway from it, since to run a restaurant it takes more staff than to run a takeaway. My understanding is that it did indeed increase the economic output in the industry and that less people in the hospitality sector were on furlough during that time - but whether it had any long term impact in terms of really protecting jobs I'm not sure.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Psygon said:


> The scheme had a policy intent to protect jobs in the hospitality sector. Which I would assume needs you to go to a location to eat rather than takeaway from it, since to run a restaurant it takes more staff than to run a takeaway. My understanding is that it did indeed increase the economic output in the industry and that less people in the hospitality sector were on furlough during that time - but whether it had any long term impact in terms of really protecting jobs I'm not sure.


Fair point I didn't consider waiting staff! It's similar to being stuck in a rock and a hard place. I still believe if the government had taken effective, timely, and appropriate actions then lockdown periods would have been reduced meaning less time/money spent on furlough. I don't want it to come across like I am blaming businesses however as I understand they have a requirement to make income.


----------



## MollySmith

I suppose it was only a matter of time. This is The Mirror with photos of Quiz Master Boris

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-pictured-hosting-number-25675443?123=


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> I suppose it was only a matter of time. This is The Mirror with photos of Quiz Master Boris
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-pictured-hosting-number-25675443?123=


*Cue fake apology from downing street*

words cannot begin to describe to lack of shock yet overwhelming anger I feel.


----------



## JANICE199

*The one thing i have learnt with BJ is this, if he says one thing, he means the opposite. He's a born LIAR. *


----------



## kimthecat

Was he actually there in the room ? The photo Ive seen online are taken from a screen . ( the link is playing up. I cant get rid of the I accept cookies bit)


----------



## MollySmith

Boris is on the telly tonight as we approach Level 4 (I keep wanting to type Level 42). 8pm. 

He'll be the bloke not wearing a party hat.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Boris is on the telly tonight as we approach Level 4 (I keep wanting to type Level 42). 8pm.
> 
> He'll be the bloke not wearing a party hat.


:Hilarious


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Was he actually there in the room ? The photo Ive seen online are taken from a screen . ( the link is playing up. I cant get rid of the I accept cookies bit)


It's being weird on Chrome for me too, okay in Safari.

It's the number of people in the room with him and who they are, because we were in household bubbles at the time. The Mirror claims 'In one office, the insider said, there were four teams, each made up of six people...' and 'London was then under Tier 2 regulations banning any social mixing between households - which Mr Johnson appeared to have breached by mixing with the aides.'

And 'The revelations seriously undermine Downing Street's claims last week that no parties had taken place in No10. Mr Johnson said last week: "I can tell you guidelines were followed at all times. I've satisfied myself that the guidelines were followed at all times." But after details emerged of the quiz, a source claimed: "It was just part of the culture. The PM turned a blind eye. He seemed totally comfortable with gatherings."

The Mirror understands staff were invited to the virtual quiz, raising funds for charity, a couple of weeks earlier.'


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029 Latest study in Omicron.

Ive not read all of it . I read this on the condensed red button

The uk is facing a substantial wave of Omicron infections without further restrictions.
The number of deaths from the variant by the end of April could range from 25,000 to 75 , 000 depending 
on how well vaccines perform. Scientists are still uncertain about the model .

Another scientist not linked to the study said the study's worst case scenarios are unlikely.

Ive already posted this in the other thread . It just goes to show that Scientists dont agree with each other. If they dont agree how are our MPs supposed to make the right choice, ?


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> *Cue fake apology from downing street*
> 
> words cannot begin to describe to lack of shock yet overwhelming anger I feel.


Given Scotland Yard said they won't investigate due to lack of evidence, one imagines that this would be enough? Starmer has called it on Andrew Marr this morning. I guess how far it goes also depends on Christmas recess Westminster and that'll also depend on whatever is announced this evening about level 4.

If Boris steps down it'll be a huge insult if it's over this party thing when he and his cabinet have ruined so many lives through other policies in my opinion (including the two bills being levered through at the moment and the vote on vaccine passports all being overshadowed by party gate, never mind all the rest.)


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *The one thing i have learnt with BJ is this, if he says one thing, he means the opposite. He's a born LIAR. *


he's crafty! he promised us he would vote against the 3rd runway before he was PM. What happened , he was conveniently out of the country when the v ote took placed.

he said he would lie down in front of a bulldozer if it goes ahead . :Jawdrop No comment !


----------



## kimthecat

I hope the rest of the world problems arent being ignored while this hoohaa carrys on.

Russia has amassed thousands of troops next to Ukraine Scary. !

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...meets-in-liverpool/ar-AARId5A?ocid=uxbndlbing


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## MollySmith

I believe that at Level 4 the questions get harder, but there's also a karaoke round.

Boris will be singing 'It's My Party and I'll Cry If I Want To'


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *The one thing i have learnt with BJ is this, if he says one thing, he means the opposite. He's a born LIAR. *


He certainly is, It's just one lie after another.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029 Latest study in Omicron.
> 
> Ive not read all of it . I read this on the condensed red button
> 
> The uk is facing a substantial wave of Omicron infections without further restrictions.
> The number of deaths from the variant by the end of April could range from 25,000 to 75 , 000 depending
> on how well vaccines perform. Scientists are still uncertain about the model .
> 
> Another scientist not linked to the study said the study's worst case scenarios are unlikely.
> 
> Ive already posted this in the other thread . It just goes to show that Scientists dont agree with each other. If they dont agree how are our MPs supposed to make the right choice, ?


That is easy - better safe than sorry?
Hope for the best prepare for the worst…
Scientists say all depends how much social mixing takes place…
They have no crystal ball…
Will Joe Blogg have a booster? Will he wear a mask and wash hands? Will he go clubbing etc…
Will government come with clear guidelines and follow them?
If the people in power cannot take own advice seriously who will?
As some people are happy to say " only elderly and sick die"… which is not true anyway …


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> That is easy - better safe than sorry?
> Hope for the best prepare for the worst…
> Scientists say all depends how much social mixing takes place…
> They have no crystal ball…
> Will Joe Blogg have a booster? Will he wear a mask and wash hands? Will he go clubbing etc…
> Will government come with clear guidelines and follow them?
> If the people in power cannot take own advice seriously who will?
> As some people are happy to say " only elderly and sick die"… which is not true anyway …


I agree with you. Better safe than sorry. This is what the government have been doing and they get crap for it. It keeps changing and i find it confusng myself but the guide lines have to be adapted to the current situation.
Im a bit shocked at how quickly Omicron has spread , despite an early warning and measures taken.


----------



## MollySmith

The other night non-compliance was trending and this evening it’s national switch off, people either too anxious about the announcements, annoyed it’s not a resignation or simply tired of the restrictions and refusing to watch. We haven’t got it in but I’m feeling a bit ropey after the booster.

I’m just wondering if this is now a complete loss of control. Actually I don’t want to wonder that, it’s very unpleasant.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> The other night non-compliance was trending and this evening it's national switch off, people either too anxious about the announcements, annoyed it's not a resignation or simply tired of the restrictions and refusing to watch. We haven't got it in but I'm feeling a bit ropey after the booster.
> 
> I'm just wondering if this is now a complete loss of control. Actually I don't want to wonder that, it's very unpleasant.


 Restrictions raent going down well in other countries. Theres been a mass protest in Vienna.

I really hope there will no demonstrations in this country. Im sick to death of them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm begin to think Booster is the only word Boris knows. Seems to be his answer to everything.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Restrictions raent going down well in other countries. Theres been a mass protest in Vienna.
> 
> I really hope there will no demonstrations in this country. Im sick to death of them.


The new policing bill, when passed, will stop any protest including any against the government. Ironically! One can bet the Met will arrest anyone whilst failing to realise their inactivity over the alleged but almost certainly took place party which is one reason why people might protest when they may not before.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029 Latest study in Omicron.
> 
> Ive not read all of it . I read this on the condensed red button
> 
> The uk is facing a substantial wave of Omicron infections without further restrictions.
> The number of deaths from the variant by the end of April could range from 25,000 to 75 , 000 depending
> on how well vaccines perform. Scientists are still uncertain about the model .
> 
> Another scientist not linked to the study said the study's worst case scenarios are unlikely.
> 
> Ive already posted this in the other thread . It just goes to show that Scientists dont agree with each other. If they dont agree how are our MPs supposed to make the right choice, ?


 Looking back to last March when BJ announced ''one three-week lockdown is all we need and it will all be over'' - as you say, it seems the whole thing has been a bit of a shambles since then with the so-called experts contradicting each other. The one thing that they seemed to get right was the vaccination programme, but now even ardent pro-vaxxers are having to admit that if it's going to be three or four a year, they don't want it. You can count me out.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Looking back to last March when BJ announced ''one three-week lockdown is all we need and it will all be over'' - as you say, it seems the whole thing has been a bit of a shambles since then with the so-called experts contradicting each other. The one thing that they seemed to get right was the vaccination programme, but now even ardent pro-vaxxers are having to admit that if it's going to be three or four a year, they don't want it. You can count me out.


agree with all this.


----------



## Dimwit

Calvine said:


> The one thing that they seemed to get right was the vaccination programme, but now even ardent pro-vaxxers are having to admit that if it's going to be three or four a year, they don't want it. You can count me out.


The problem is that the vaccine program was not run by the government but when it was successful they took the credit and therefore politicised it.
I have no problem with multiple boosters if that is what is needed, it is what we do for the flu vaccine. Unfortunately, while flu is seasonal and there is generally one predominant strain so we only need yearly booster, covid is evolving a lot more rapidly. This is to expected - it's how vaccines work and while the global population does not have a sufficient vaccine rate or strict controls to prevent the spread we are, unfortunately, selecting for new strains to evolve.
But most people don't realise this - they hear Boris mumbling about how vaccines have worked and we are 'winning the war' (which we never were) and then blaming the new strain/lack of vaccine efficacy for soaring infection rates to detract from the truth that it is our woeful biosecurity measures that have facilitated yet another tidal wave of infections...


----------



## rona

https://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/hea...s-severe-e1886dd4-9102-4c62-b795-2dcef06fd7f2


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> https://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/hea...s-severe-e1886dd4-9102-4c62-b795-2dcef06fd7f2


The South Africans have being saying that Omicron is far more transmissible but less severe for about a week.

See my post no #11882 dated 11/12/2021 on the Thread Covid Outbreak

Prof Salim Abdool Karim the South African Public Health Medicine Specialist, epidemiologist and infectious diseases specialist and Vice President of the International Science Council.has said the Omicron variant is highly transmissible but the symptoms are milder.

Apparently it's more like having a heavy cold.


----------



## Dimwit

Magyarmum said:


> The South Africans have being saying that Omicron is far more transmissible but less severe for about a week.
> 
> See my post no #11882 dated 11/12/2021 on the Thread Covid Outbreak
> 
> Prof Salim Abdool Karim the South African Public Health Medicine Specialist, epidemiologist and infectious diseases specialist and Vice President of the International Science Council.has said the Omicron variant is highly transmissible but the symptoms are milder.
> 
> Apparently it's more like having a heavy cold.


the problem is that you can't judge the long-term impact by initial symptoms. We are seeing long covid symptoms in patients with mild or even asymptomatic initial infection. That is what is so worrying about covid - we just don't know enough about what it does long-term


----------



## daveos

I would have thought that if Omicron was as bad as our government is saying we would have surely seen more deaths in South Africa by now after all they have less people vaccinated than we do HIV is very large which weakens immune systems also a lot of poverty in parts of South Africa with little access to healthcare.
I believe what the South Africans are saying I do not believe a word Boris is saying at the minute he is just trying to save his own skin.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> The new policing bill, when passed, will stop any protest including any against the government. Ironically! One can bet the Met will arrest anyone whilst failing to realise their inactivity over the alleged but almost certainly took place party which is one reason why people might protest when they may not before.


They're not banning demos or protests. if it stops the ones that go on for days and cause chaos then thats good. This government wont be in for ever , Id be surprised if they win another election.


----------



## MollySmith

Dimwit said:


> The problem is that the vaccine program was not run by the government but when it was successful they took the credit and therefore politicised it.
> I have no problem with multiple boosters if that is what is needed, it is what we do for the flu vaccine. Unfortunately, while flu is seasonal and there is generally one predominant strain so we only need yearly booster, covid is evolving a lot more rapidly. This is to expected - it's how vaccines work and while the global population does not have a sufficient vaccine rate or strict controls to prevent the spread we are, unfortunately, selecting for new strains to evolve.
> But most people don't realise this - they hear Boris mumbling about how vaccines have worked and we are 'winning the war' (which we never were) and then blaming the new strain/lack of vaccine efficacy for soaring infection rates to detract from the truth that it is our woeful biosecurity measures that have facilitated yet another tidal wave of infections...


Thank you for explaining.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> They're not banning demos or protests. if it stops the ones that go on for days and cause chaos then thats good. This government wont be in for ever , Id be surprised if they win another election.


We beg to differ on the bill - totally respectfully - but agree on the rest.


----------



## MollySmith

Source: Simple Politics (Facebook)


----------



## MollySmith

And the always odious Desmond Swayne MP has claimed road deaths were "certainly killing more people than Covid at the moment". UK road deaths in 2021: Under 2,000 UK Covid deaths in 2021: 70,000


----------



## Happy Paws2

I admire Sir Keir Starmer he could have tried to bring BJ down yesterday but he wasn't playing politics he was thinking about the country and has left BJ play the games.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> I admire Sir Keir Starmer he could have tried to bring BJ down yesterday but he wasn't playing politics he was thinking about the country and has left BJ play the games.


Pretty sure he is still playing games too.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Pretty sure he is still playing games too.


May be so, but not with the health of the nation as BJ and his cronies seem to be.


----------



## daveos

BJ is toast especially if they loose on Thursday a tory stronghold, Im not surprised his MPs rebelled he is not acting like a leader it was only the vaccine rollout that really saved him last time.
He says he follows the science but always reacts when to late.
Has no plan for end game we can't keep shutting down all the time that will destroy business.
He needs to listen to what other countries are saying about Omicron and to stop causing panic he needs to listen to Dr John Campbell rather than the current team of advisers.
If he was a decent person he would resign he is clearly out of his depth.


----------



## Lurcherlad

According to the BBC news App, it seems that Omicron is creating it's own shut down …. workers are going down like flies apparently, and some companies are struggling to function fully.

My DS works in The City of London in a stockbrokers and several colleagues have gone down with it and tested positive … he and his other colleagues have resorted back to working from home (thus avoiding public transport too) for the foreseeable future (despite the boss’s directive of being in the office).

I’m pretty sure though that his company have not been following strict practices within the building for some time now.

On the other hand, OH’s company have been very strict (including daily testing at the door), sanitising etc. and OH is the third to contract a cold there …. and he’s given it to me 

All their testing (and my own 3 tests at home) have all shown negative for Covid.


----------



## rona

Lurcherlad said:


> On the other hand, OH's company have been very strict (including daily testing at the door), sanitising etc. and OH is the third to contract a cold there


Well they obviously aren't are they...........or the workers aren't!


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't think anything we do will stop Omicron and when we do get control of it, it will just mutant again and again, what ever we do it's here for years.


----------



## Lurcherlad

rona said:


> Well they obviously aren't are they...........or the workers aren't!


I doubt anyone can be 100% perfect though …. they are only human 

Plus they are sharing the same office space for the whole day. I don't think masks are worn in the office … is that a requirement still? And, of course, people can be contagious before symptoms show.

The aircon was also adapted with top flight filtration, etc.

Even doctors have caught it on covid wards despite full ppe.

We can only limit our chances of infection, after all.

I am (and have been) really mindful of the precautions and genuinely been doing my best, but I can't say I'm perfect either


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Lurcherlad, post: 1065840880, member: 1356501"

We can only limit our chances of infection, after all.[/QUOTE]

and keep our fingers crossed that everyone does as they are told.


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think anything we do will stop Omicron and when we do get control of it, it will just mutant again and again, what ever we do it's here for years.


You're right, we will have to learn to live and adapt to various covid strains
Just like we have had to with colds and flu
The flu vaccine doesn't stop us getting the flu, it lessens the chance of it hospitalising or killing us, same as with covid vaccine,
covid however is still in its infancy,
and,
like a tantruming toddler,
is throwing everything at us, cos it wants what it wants,
that is to survive (not giving it sentience it's just doing what a virus does)
When it finally settles down
then, like the flu,
scientists will be able to pick the, likely, strain for X year
and, like the flu,
we will have just the one jab
In all the years man has struggled to eradicate one virus, any virus, we've never succeeded, covid will be no different

Edit to add: before someone says smallpox, it's only non present, there are still various strains kept for scientific study and as biological weapons, so not technically eradicated


----------



## Happy Paws2

Earthquakes, volcanos, fires, floods and a virus, the planet wants to get rid of us, and do you blame it.


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> In all the years man has struggled to eradicate one virus, any virus, we've never succeeded,


Sure we have. Smallpox has been eradicated (there may be a dormant version or two in a lab somewhere) but in the general population worldwide, you won't get it. So much so that most people born after the 60's don't have a smallpox vaccine scar.
Rabies has been eradicated in the UK has it not?
When was the last time you heard of someone getting polio?

Besides the massive political issues with the vaccines, my take is that because covid-19 is not that deadly, people are more hesitant to vaccinate. Yes, yes, I know it IS deadly and has been awful for many people who got it, but the vast, huge majority of people who have had covid had minor symptoms and recovered fully. That makes it hard to convince the general public of the need to vaccinate. 
When kids were dropping like flies from a polio outbreak and ending up in iron lungs and with permanently affected limbs, people were happy to take the 'risk' of a vaccine over the disease. Smallpox? Very deadly and if you were one of the lucky survivors you'd be scarred for life. The vaccine is worth the risk. 
It's hard to convince Joe Public to vaccinate against something that they have seen with their own experience to be minor. I'm not saying covid is a minor disease/virus, but for most people's experience, it has been. 
Combine that 'minor' illness experience with some really f-ed up politicking, and you get the huge numbers of people refusing to vaccinate in developed countries, with huge numbers of people unvaccinated in developing countries.

So yes, covid is here to stay. Unless someone can figure out a way to get more people vaccinated, we're going to be stuck with this virus for a long time. The good news, it is becoming less deadly as viruses like this tend to. And if nothing else repeated exposure means our bodies are adapting to it too.


----------



## David C

Remember the swine flu pandemic 2009. That affected mostly your people and your people died. They had an antiviral medication for that immediately. 8nfected were told to self isolate. How did that just vanish after two years. You never hear of it anymore.


----------



## MollySmith

I get the feeling that most people in the UK who wanted to be vaccinated are, certainly first, if not the second. We are in the _trying to persuade folk to vaccinated whilst our PM has lost credibility or sympathy_ _(having had Covid himself) for partying during lockdown_, set against the country with the highest number of case in Europe (I believe, we certainly have hit a high anyway). As @Dimwit said elsewhere on PF, the vaccine was created by science and then politicised and I think the uptake may have been higher had the NHS or science led the campaign to vaccinate.


----------



## Siskin

I’ve noticed in our area, which does have a high vaccine uptake, that there are more people having their first jabs. Don’t know who they are, but for some time the daily first jab figure was very low mainly single figures


----------



## MilleD

Does anyone else think the high number of cases might be to do with the government telling folks to get tested. The lateral flow tests ran out online (back available now though) so surely there is more testing going on which will obviously result in more positives.

Or is that totally off the mark?


----------



## rona

The numbers are still going down in my county. Seems London and East midlands are the ones being hit at the moment


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Does anyone else think the high number of cases might be to do with the government telling folks to get tested. The lateral flow tests ran out online (back available now though) so surely there is more testing going on which will obviously result in more positives.
> 
> Or is that totally off the mark?


Yep. 10,000 more cases for 300,000 extra tests. All approx figures


----------



## mrs phas

Sometimes I wonder why I bother to put addendum to my posts
When obviously some would rather have a pop than actually read them, which is why some are normally on ignore
Rabies is not eradicated in UK, every year a couple or so people are infected by, normally, bats
And
Polio is still rife in certain third world countries, where vaccines are either not available or too expensive, and even some countries that we might deem as minor first world ones, such as Pakistan
Strangely I do research before I post

Edit for autocorrect


----------



## Siskin

Spanish flu is still around although it would only affect people that have absolutely no incidence of the flu in previous generations.


----------



## stuaz

mrs phas said:


> Sometimes I wonder why I other to put addendum to my posts
> When obviously some would rather have a pop than actually read them, which is why some are normally on ignore
> Rabies is not eradicated in UK, every year a could or so people are infected by, normally, bats
> And
> Polio is still rife in certain third world countries, where vaccines are either not available or too expensive, and even some countries that we might deem as minor first world ones, such as Pakistan
> Strangely I do research before I post


i thought rabies in bats is not the same as rabies that you get from a dog for example and can't be passed from different species eg bat to human?


----------



## mrs phas

stuaz said:


> i thought rabies in bats is not the same as rabies that you get from a dog for example and can't be passed from different species eg bat to human?


Nope , although no one has died, I believe, it's mainly those licenced to handle bats, or those finding one on the floor, that get bit though.

Edit for darned phone autocorrecting


----------



## Arny

The uk is considered rabies free as the strain in our bats is not the same as mainland Europe etc.
I’m not sure if it were eradicated or if it just never took hold here in the first place.


----------



## mrs phas

From bat trust.

Bats and rabies
Some bats in the UK carry rabies viruses called European Bat Lyssaviruses (EBLV). EBLV are not the classical rabies virus which is usually associated with dogs; classical rabies has never been recorded in a native European bat species. The presence of EBLV in bats in the UK does not affect the UK's rabies-free status as this relates to classical rabies only.

Bats are not normally aggressive and will avoid contact with humans. This means that there is no risk if you do not handle bats. The rabies virus is transmitted via a bite or scratch from an infected animal, or from its saliva coming into contact with your mucous membranes (your eyes, mouth or nose). If you do need to handle a grounded or injured bat, always wear thick gloves to avoid getting bitten.

Edit for repeating myself unnecessarily


----------



## stuaz

mrs phas said:


> Nope , although no one has died, I believe, it's mainly those licenced to handle bats, or those finding one on the floor, that get bit though.
> 
> Edit for darned phone autocorrecting


Just did some Googling and your right.

it seems it's very rare for a bat in the UK to have it and then even rarer for it to transfer to a human and they have something called bat lyssavirus which is different to what a dog would have, which is why the UK can claim to be "rabies free".


----------



## MollySmith

"In the last six days, more than 650 people have cancelled their bookings at one of my restaurants. If that's happening to us - busy restaurants with a chef who has something of a public profile - then imagine what's happening to your local pub, coffee shop and the small independent restaurant around the corner. As soon as the government announced that people should work from home if they could, I began to lose sleep. For everyone in the hospitality business, it is looking like a bleak Christmas...."

Tom Kerridge


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> When obviously some would rather have a pop than actually read them, which is why some are normally on ignore


Wasn't having a pop, wasn't aware I was on ignore or I wouldn't have quoted you, nevermind, I don't care, gonna quote you anyway 

Anyway, my point was, some viruses do die out, some viruses we can and have eradicate through vaccination. Polio is not "rife" in certain developing countries, 140 total cases worldwide in 2020 is not 'rife' by any definition. And it's only in Pakistan and Afghanistan that it still exists. WHO has worked tirelessly with contact tracing and vaccination to get these numbers down to where they are. Which goes back to my point - vaccines work, when people get vaccinated. The problem is, covid isn't as scary as polio, or smallpox, or rabies. During outbreaks in the 50's if you got polio, you were going to be affected for life - if you recovered at all. Covid doesn't have that scare factor. Most people who get covid are fine, they have no long lasting effects, most didn't even get that sick. I think by now we all know someone who was badly affected by covid or sadly worse, but we know far more people who have had covid and were perfectly fine within weeks. That's makes it all the harder to incentivize people to vaccinate.
Plus covid is a different type of virus - it's a coronavirus like the common cold. They tend to mutate a lot and they tend to mutate in to less deadly versions of themselves as other viruses with high mutation rates do like the Spanish Flu, the Swine Flu, and others.


----------



## mrs phas

I will, therefore do in kind

I never said vaccines didn't/dont work, they quite obviously do 
When I was young it wasn't unusual to see people, old and young, using red and white sticks 
Rubella jabs came along, just for girls at first, then they caught on that boys can pass it on too
I cannot, hand on heart, say the last time I saw someone using a red and white stick.



O2.0 said:


> Covid doesn't have that scare factor. Most people who get covid are fine, they have no long lasting effects, most didn't even get that sick.


Most people are fine and those who catch it have no long lasting effects? Ever heard of long covid?
Most don't get that sick and it's not scary? Tell that to the nearly 5½ million who have died world wide and their families who are mourning and still sitting death watchs
Covid doesn't have a scare factor? Then why did I and Matt get government instructions, along with millions of others, to not go out for nearly 18 months, why are some on here still not going out? I now have to go out, but I never stopped wearing a mask
Obviously that will be cos they're *not* scared or worried about catching covid

That's not scaremongering btw, it's actual fact


----------



## O2.0

mrs phas said:


> Most people are fine and those who catch it have no long lasting effects? Ever heard of long covid?
> Most don't get that sick and it's not scary? Tell that to the nearly 5½ million who have died world wide and their families who are mourning and still sitting death watchs
> Covid doesn't have a scare factor? Then why did I and Matt get government instructions, along with millions of others, to not go out for nearly 18 months, why are some on here still not going out? I now have to go out, but I never stopped wearing a mask
> Obviously that will be cos they're *not* scared or worried about catching covid


I think we're talking past each other. 
I'm not denying that there is long covid, or that covid isn't deadly. I'm saying that in comparison to more deadly viruses like polio, covid doesn't seem as scary to the vast majority of the population. 
Most people who get covid end up fine. 
Most people who got polio were not fine. 
So from a Joe Public point of view, why bother getting vaccinated. I'm not agreeing with that point of view, simply presenting it as an explanation of why it has been so hard to get people to be compliant with mandates and get vaccinated.


----------



## Rafa

Diptheria?

When I was a kid, it was a killer. It has been eradicated really through vaccination.


----------



## kimthecat

Rafa said:


> Diptheria?
> 
> When I was a kid, it was a killer. It has been eradicated really through vaccination.


yes, my OHs aunt died as a child of this but his dad survived.


----------



## mrs phas

Rafa said:


> Diptheria?
> 
> When I was a kid, it was a killer. It has been eradicated really through vaccination.


Bacteria, not virus
And
From the mayo.clinic website



> Diphtheria rarely occurs in the United States and Western Europe, where children have been vaccinated against the condition for decades. However, *diphtheria is still common in developing countries* where vaccination rates are low


----------



## mrs phas

To save anyone else the bother
There are two virus' *technically* but not completely eradicated from the world
Smallpox and rindapest
But



> Eradiction can be hard to conceptualize. Infectious disease anthropologist Thomas Aiden Cockburn defined disease eradication as "the extinction of the pathogen that causes disease." By this definition, smallpox and rinderpest are not eradicated. Samples of both viruses still exist in the world: the United States and Russia have stocks of VARV securely stored, while samples of RPV remain in many facilities around the globe. Extinction would require the destruction of these stocks, a complex topic involving geopolitics and cultural norms, as well as microbiology.


When I said I do my research, I meant it


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> Sometimes I wonder why I bother to put addendum to my posts
> When obviously some would rather have a pop than actually read them, which is why some are normally on ignore
> Rabies is not eradicated in UK, every year a couple or so people are infected by, normally, bats
> And
> Polio is still rife in certain third world countries, where vaccines are either not available or too expensive, and even some countries that we might deem as minor first world ones, such as Pakistan
> Strangely I do research before I post
> 
> Edit for autocorrect


Rabies hasn't been eradicated in Europe. If it had my dogs wouldn't need to be vaccinated against it every year.

Vaccination is the only thing that is keeping it at bay.

My younger son died from complications caused by Hepatitis C for which there is no vaccine.

To quote from the WHO

Globally, an estimated 58 million people have chronic hepatitis C virus infection, with about 1.5 million new infections occurring per year.
WHO estimated that in 2019, approximately 290 000 people died from hepatitis C, mostly from cirrhosis and hepatocellular carcinoma (primary liver cancer).
Antiviral medicines can cure more than 95% of persons with hepatitis C infection, but access to diagnosis and treatment is low.
There is currently no effective vaccine against hepatitis C.


----------



## Pawscrossed

O2.0 said:


> I think we're talking past each other.
> I'm not denying that there is long covid, or that covid isn't deadly. I'm saying that in comparison to more deadly viruses like polio, covid doesn't seem as scary to the vast majority of the population.
> Most people who get covid end up fine.
> Most people who got polio were not fine.
> So from a Joe Public point of view, why bother getting vaccinated. I'm not agreeing with that point of view, simply presenting it as an explanation of why it has been so hard to get people to be compliant with mandates and get vaccinated.


The main stream press here in the UK are promoting fear of Covid and long term Covid as a reason to vaccinate. The approach of helping others was brief and long gone, hence the conversation regarding lack of empathy and everyone out for themselves in the UK at least (and possibly confined to England) elsewhere on the forum. The message, in my opinion, is constantly 'get vaccinated or you will probably die' and it's being backed up by worried hospital staff and our chief medical officer. I'm not saying it's the right way, but maybe attitudes towards it differ and that's also a cause of the misunderstanding here?


----------



## Pawscrossed

Liberal Democrats have taken Shropshire from Tory’s, was a safe seat.


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> Liberal Democrats have taken Shropshire from Tory's, was a safe seat.


The people are speaking.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Pawscrossed said:


> Liberal Democrats have taken Shropshire from Tory's, was a safe seat.


I can't believe it! N. Shrops has been true blue forever. I thought they might lose a fair bit of their majority but never thought they wouid lose the seat - wow!


----------



## SbanR

Pawscrossed said:


> Liberal Democrats have taken Shropshire from Tory's, was a safe seat.





Boxer123 said:


> The people are speaking.


Sadly I doubt it'll happen in my area. The current MP inherited the seat from his father. I don't see opposition parties uniting as happened in Shropshire


----------



## Boxer123

SbanR said:


> Sadly I doubt it'll happen in my area. The current MP inherited the seat from his father. I don't see opposition parties uniting as happened in Shropshire


I'm in a similar area but you never know Conservatives held the seat for nearly 200 years.


----------



## mrs phas

Boxer123 said:


> The people are speaking.


Unfortunately will never happen in my area of Suffolk
Too many landed gentry and the hunting shooting brigade to turn anywhere else
James Cartlidge MP is nothing but a Boris bum sniffer


----------



## Boxer123

mrs phas said:


> Unfortunately will ever happen in my area of Suffolk
> Too many landed gentry and the hunting shooting brigade to turn anywhere else
> James Cartlidge MP is nothing but a Boris bum sniffer


 Put so beautifully.


----------



## StormyThai

mrs phas said:


> Unfortunately will never happen in my area of Suffolk
> Too many landed gentry and the hunting shooting brigade to turn anywhere else
> James Cartlidge MP is nothing but a Boris bum sniffer


Not forgetting the racing fraternity too...it's no secret that the wonderful career politician Matt HanCOCK receives thousands of pounds in donations from wealthy owners and trainers.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> I'm in a similar area but you never know Conservatives held the seat for nearly 200 years.


Same here in the Royal Town of Sutton Coldfield it's been Conservative since the year dot.


----------



## O2.0

Pawscrossed said:


> The main stream press here in the UK are promoting fear of Covid and long term Covid as a reason to vaccinate. The approach of helping others was brief and long gone, hence the conversation regarding lack of empathy and everyone out for themselves in the UK at least (and possibly confined to England) elsewhere on the forum. The message, in my opinion, is constantly 'get vaccinated or you will probably die' and it's being backed up by worried hospital staff and our chief medical officer. I'm not saying it's the right way, but maybe attitudes towards it differ and that's also a cause of the misunderstanding here?


I think that's an issue too. The public has been lied to and things misrepresented to suit an agenda for so long that there is no trust left.

Again to use polio as an example. No one wanted to get polio because if you did you would be affected. So the message was get vaccinated and you won't get polio. Simple. 
Covid has been much different. Yes, ridiculous numbers of people have died, but not everyone who gets covid dies, in fact most people who get covid will not die. Most of us know plenty of people who had covid, mild to no symptoms, and were fine. 
The vast majority of people who have had covid have not been affected long term. Yes, there are cases of long covid, but it doesn't happen to everyone, not even close. So the fear mongering starts feeling like, well, fear mongering. No one likes to feel manipulated.

I am vaccinated not because I'm afraid of getting covid. But because I believe the vaccines to be safe and I believe vaccination is the best way to get a handle on this pandemic. 
But I was repeatedly exposed to it before vaccines came out and never got it - yes, I was tested repeatedly because that was our policy. I was in the same household with positive people and never got it. I've been in a vehicle with closed windows for 6 hours with someone who had it and didn't get it. Many of my friends and co-workers have had family members get it and they don't. I think there's a lot about transmission that we don't yet understand and again the mask up or you're killing someone fear mongering is just that.

I also think we need to stop judging one group by the standards of another. Organizations like WHO, NHS, and CDC need to stop making overarching recommendations and realize that what is happening in rural America doesn't apply to congested European cities and vice versa. Or even one part of the country to another.


----------



## MollySmith

*Christmas Party Quiz*

If you were asked to investigate the Christmas Party having an illegal Christmas party at number 10 and you had actually been to a gathering last Christmas in the same place, would you...
A Confess you'd been there pushing pineapples and Jive Talking so you can't investigate
B Say you were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar (closed) at the time
C Get Down Get Down (with Boris) and fib/forget/Careless Whisper and investigate and don't predict a riot


----------



## MollySmith

The answer is C and the winner is Simon Case. Get that man a raffle ticket outta here.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> *Christmas Party Quiz*
> 
> If you were asked to investigate the Christmas Party having an illegal Christmas party at number 10 and you had actually been to a gathering last Christmas in the same place, would you...
> A Confess you'd been there pushing pineapples and Jive Talking so you can't investigate
> B Say you were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar (closed) at the time
> C Get Down Get Down (with Boris) and fib/forget/Careless Whisper and investigate and don't predict a riot


 That was quick @MollySmith.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> That was quick @MollySmith.


Probably not as fast as Simon Case's swift exit from the inquiry!


----------



## Jacknmack10

kimthecat said:


> If you're not happy with something , you're allowed to point it out,


I appreciate that but I thought it was a bit rude to ignore and not accept my mistake and apologize. I just want to move forward now. It's made me more mindful now to be careful what I post. I don't want to say anything which might derail a thread.


----------



## Jacknmack10

Pawscrossed said:


> Liberal Democrats have taken Shropshire from Tory's, was a safe seat.


Their handling of COVID can't have helped but North Shropshire is predominantly rural with a large farming community. It's a vote leave area and many farmers voted leave on the lies Johnson and his mob sold them. Many are now facing ruin as the realities of leaving the single market hit home. It's incredible they voted for a remain party , but the government has screwed them over with it's Australia and New Zealand trade deal s. I'm sure the corruption and hypocrisy, they sewage scandal didn't help the government much either. The people of Shropshire have shown tactical voting is the way forward.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Oh yet more minutes from a SAGE meeting leaked, more restrictions needed very soon to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed with covid admissions according to their modelling. If wearing masks, passports and WFH caused a melt down I hate to think what the reaction to restrictions might be! The schools have broken up now I think, well they have here anyway, so hopefully that might bring the cases down a bit.


----------



## Blackadder

3dogs2cats said:


> Oh yet more minutes from a SAGE meeting leaked, more restrictions needed very soon to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed with covid admissions according to their modelling. If wearing masks, passports and WFH caused a melt down I hate to think what the reaction to restrictions might be!


Groundhog day! This is how they work... Boris says we have no plans to do xyz then "leaked minutes" & a couple of days later xyz is announced.

Just softening us up for the latest restrictions.


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59710649

*The Mayor of London has declared a "major incident" due to the rapid spread of the Omicron coronavirus variant in the capital.*

Sadiq Khan said Omicron was now the "dominant variant" in London and was having an impact on staff absences in the emergency services across the city.

He said London was the UK region with the largest number of Covid cases.

Latest government data shows there are 1,534 Covid patients in London hospitals - up 28.6% on last week.

Mr Khan said in the last 24 hours, London had seen the largest number of new cases since the coronavirus pandemic began - more than 26,000.

He added: "Hospital admissions are going up, but also staff absences are going up by a massive level.

"So I've taken the decision in consultation with our partners to declare a major incident today."


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59710649
> 
> *The Mayor of London has declared a "major incident" due to the rapid spread of the Omicron coronavirus variant in the capital.*
> 
> Sadiq Khan said Omicron was now the "dominant variant" in London and was having an impact on staff absences in the emergency services across the city.
> 
> He said London was the UK region with the largest number of Covid cases.
> 
> Latest government data shows there are 1,534 Covid patients in London hospitals - up 28.6% on last week.
> 
> Mr Khan said in the last 24 hours, London had seen the largest number of new cases since the coronavirus pandemic began - more than 26,000.
> 
> He added: "Hospital admissions are going up, but also staff absences are going up by a massive level.
> 
> "So I've taken the decision in consultation with our partners to declare a major incident today."


Gosh, those are big numbers.

What does that mean in actual practical terms? I saw on Twitter that people were protesting against lockdowns in London and all these politicians come out with the phrases but it's not often clear what we're meant to do.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Gosh, those are big numbers.
> 
> What does that mean in actual practical terms? I saw on Twitter that people were protesting against lockdowns in London and all these politicians come out with the phrases but it's not often clear what we're meant to do.


I dont know. Ive only just seen it on the Red button. Last year we were put into Level 4 so perhaps that will happen again.


----------



## SbanR

MollySmith said:


> Gosh, those are big numbers.
> 
> What does that mean in actual practical terms? I saw on Twitter that people were protesting against lockdowns in London and all these politicians come out with the phrases but it's not often clear what we're meant to do.


They're talking about it on BBC news now


----------



## Siskin

It's not clear whether the Covid admissions are down to Delta or Omicron or if they are in hospital due to Covid or for something else and were routinely tested and found to be positive. So let's not panic over numbers until it's made clear exactly what is going on.
I watch Dr John Campbell's YouTube videos which are almost daily at the moment for clarity regarding figures. @lullabydream recommended them recently, I just wish I had found him earlier.


----------



## kimthecat

Today,

https://www.rt.com/uk/543630-london-protest-covid-police/

Anti-vaxxers have clashed with police during a demonstration against anti-Covid measures in central London as officials admit they are "extremely worried" about the epidemiological situation in the UK capital.
A 'freedom rally' organized by several self-described '_resistance groups_' started at midday on Saturday at Parliament Square.

Its participants are protesting the vaccine mandate for NHS staff, the recent introduction of Covid-passports, and other pandemic-related measures. None of them are wearing masks or keeping social distance, with many holding banners against '_medical apartheid_' and '_tyranny_', along with hippie-style '_Love wins_'.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Latest government data shows there are 1,534 Covid patients in London hospitals - up 28.6% on last week.


Doesn't help with London venues putting pounds before rules 
Youngest took his gf to winter wonderland on Tuesday (which, personally, I believe should have been cancelled, again, this year 1000s of people herded into one place, not good) he had got tickets to ride the Ferris wheel and, as all signs said Corona virus restrictions were in place, and, that wandering around, in the fresh air, they were expected to wear masks, that it would be just them in the Ferris wheel car
Oh no! Them two and a 'family' of two adults with a small child were squished into one car and then moved off, whilst he was trying to object, neither of the other adults said a word.
When they got off he went to make a complaint, and was just told, 
"they got tickets too mate, what did you expect?"
He and girlfriend grabbed some lft's on the way back to the hotel 
They're back in Cambridge now, and so far so good 
Hopefully it stays that way


----------



## MollySmith

SbanR said:


> They're talking about it on BBC news now


Thank you, I'll catch up (been at the neighbourhood carol concert)


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh my crikey. Who has taken all these photos that are appearing, now of the garden at number 10 in May last year. It enrages me when I think to what people were going through at that time. Dying alone. Fecking well dying alone and they are sitting around drinking bloody wine. 

Ppppfffttt. Bastards.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Gosh, those are big numbers.
> 
> What does that mean in actual practical terms? I saw on Twitter that people were protesting against lockdowns in London and all these politicians come out with the phrases but it's not often clear what we're meant to do.


I wonder if it will be full lockdown. Absences due to Covid have badly affected staffing levels in the Fire Brigade and Police service as well as Hospitals which puts us in danger , Resources wasted on the protesters


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I’m tempted to say that tomorrow or Tuesday there will be tighter measures from Monday 27th. I think if the government tried anything for the Christmas weekend, there would be hell to pay.


----------



## Siskin

The theatre where my daughter works has just had to close as one of the cast has tested positive. She’s worried it may not survive this time


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Mrs Funkin said:


> I'm tempted to say that tomorrow or Tuesday there will be tighter measures from Monday 27th. I think if the government tried anything for the Christmas weekend, there would be hell to pay.


I think there will be hell to pay if Johnson tries to bring in restrictions at any time but I agree with you that it is very unlikely he would attempt anything this side of christmas, he won`t get it through Hoc. Not only would his own party be up in arms but a fair few in the opposition wouldn`t swallow it either.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> I wonder if it will be full lockdown. Absences due to Covid have badly affected staffing levels in the Fire Brigade and Police service as well as Hospitals which puts us in danger , Resources wasted on the protesters


Perhaps rather than looking at further lockdowns and restrictions they need to start thinking about removing the legal requirement to isolate for positive cases of covid? Obviously anyone feeling really ill wouldnt want to be at work anyway but so many people with either no symptoms or very mild symptoms are having to be off work which is just as damaging as a lockdown!


----------



## MollySmith

Cheese and wine at 10 Downing Street during May 2020 and sitting next to our PM is Carrie who holds no 'official' position so it has to be social. This is his speech on 10th May and the rules.


----------



## Arny

3dogs2cats said:


> Perhaps rather than looking at further lockdowns and restrictions they need to start thinking about removing the legal requirement to isolate for positive cases of covid? Obviously anyone feeling really ill wouldnt want to be at work anyway but so many people with either no symptoms or very mild symptoms are having to be off work which is just as damaging as a lockdown!


I've been thinking this but didn't want to be the one to say it.
A few months ago I read isolation could be scrapped next year but honestly can't see them doing it at the moment. Lockdown, even just a short one, is much more likely.


----------



## MollySmith

And he has skipped the Cobra meeting (I recall he also skipped the ones in December 2019 and January 2020), so has Sunack. I assume Javid went? Someone must have been there? This can't be entirely true.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arny said:


> I've been thinking this but didn't want to be the one to say it.
> A few months ago I read isolation could be scrapped next year but honestly can't see them doing it at the moment. Lockdown, even just a short one, is much more likely.


Once everyone had had a booster ( well all those that want it) maybe then they can look at removing the isolation rule.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> And he has skipped the Cobra meeting (I recall he also skipped the ones in December 2019 and January 2020), so has Sunack. I assume Javid went? Someone must have been there? This can't be entirely true.


 Johnson was too busy hosting a party at number 10 @MollySmith, preferably his bloody leaving party!


----------



## MilleD

Arny said:


> I've been thinking this but didn't want to be the one to say it.
> A few months ago I read isolation could be scrapped next year but honestly can't see them doing it at the moment. Lockdown, even just a short one, is much more likely.


That question was asked of javid on the Andrew Marr show yesterday. He was fairly unequivocal in his answer that to prevent further spread people must isolate. If they are still thinking hospital numbers will rise, I can't see them backing down on that anytime soon.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Cheese and wine at 10 Downing Street during May 2020 and sitting next to our PM is Carrie who holds no 'official' position so it has to be social. This is his speech on 10th May and the rules.


I'm just so cross at this point you were allowed to meet 1 other person outside. Do you remember the two young women who were fined for going for a walk because they had a cup of tea.

I would love to see my work colleagues for cheese and wine we haven't met in person for years now.

It's a kick in the teeth to NHS workers, to people who haven't seen loved ones, friends. People who have lost loved ones.

This is why we end up with demonstrations it feeds the conspiracy theories.


----------



## Cleo38

Boxer123 said:


> I'm just so cross at this point you were allowed to meet 1 other person outside. Do you remember the two young women who were fined for going for a walk because they had a cup of tea.
> 
> I would love to see my work colleagues for cheese and wine we haven't met in person for years now.
> 
> It's a kick in the teeth to NHS workers, to people who haven't seen loved ones, friends. People who have lost loved ones.
> 
> This is why we end up with demonstrations it feeds the conspiracy theories.


I completely agree. Some of the madness that went on initially even down to police forces using drones to target middle aged dog walkers was unbelievable.

I honestly can't see many people returning to isolating now after the revelations of government ministers. I certainly won't.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Cleo38 said:


> I honestly can't see many people returning to isolating now after the revelations of government ministers. I certainly won't.


I understand that, but if we don't things will just get worse and some of the most vulnerable of us are going to die.

We need to show BJ and his staff that we are better than them.


----------



## MollySmith

3dogs2cats said:


> Johnson was too busy hosting a party at number 10 @MollySmith, preferably his bloody leaving party!


Maybe they need to serve cheese and wine at Cobra meetings


----------



## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> I understand that, but if we don't things will just get worse and some of the most vulnerable of us are going to die.
> 
> We need to show BJ and his staff that we are better than them.


I'm an anti social bugger so following the rules haven't been to much of a hardship although it has been tough living on my own at times. Luckily I have boxers. I will follow any new measures and have been reducing my contacts anyway. One had to be at their physical peak to wrangle boxers. I'm an avid runner and am terrified of long Covid. On top of that I work with vulnerable children. I've been really careful all the way through. Regular LFT and have avoided large group gatherings.

However I can see why others won't essentially what the government are saying by all their partying is that the virus isn't that scary. Why were they happy to mingle at the height of the second wave ? It just gives such a terrible message. I know quite a few anti lockdown people and it's hard to disagree with them when you see these photos.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well to many quality street already.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Maybe they need to serve cheese and wine at Cobra meetings


Apparently it was an after work do because they work so hard. (Dominic Raab) interesting they didn't set up something similar for ICU nurses and doctors who have worked incredibly hard. They are just rotten to the core.


----------



## Cleo38

Happy Paws2 said:


> I understand that, but if we don't things will just get worse and some of the most vulnerable of us are going to die.
> 
> We need to show BJ and his staff that we are better than them.


But vulnerable people are already dying, not from Covid but other illnesses & they are dying (or suffering) alone because of rules to keep us 'safe'. Some people may have time to wait for things to get better but others do not. I have recently learned that two of my friends have been diagnosed with cancer. They are choosing to continue to see people (sensibly) & I have no intentions of letting rules set by our useless government stop from me from seeing them.

I will choose to do what I see fit & use my common sense


----------



## MollySmith

There was a thing I was reading about moralising of illness which happened an awful lot by governments in the HIV/AIDS outbreak. THis behaviour - don’t do this and moral judgement- lost a generation of men.

It got me thinking about how Covid is becoming a moral illness too. Them, us, you and me, what we can or can’t do is open to interpretation right now and therefore personal acts. If that makes sense?

It feels like it’s about individualism and not about collective action. And that isn’t ever going to cut it as we’ve found, in my opinion.

Governments and those in power are, as I understand from the human rights acts, meant to overcome individualism by creating rules (rightly or wrongly). They are responsible for all including those who decide not to vaccinate.

It feels to me like we have people in power who are consciously (or unconsciously) moralising Covid by being individualists, as demonstrated by the parties, Boris not wearing a mask etc. In most circumstances people might allow for it but when lives are at risk, one has to act collectively since what anyone here does, affects indirectly another.

that’s probably a whole bunch of waffle but at 2am when I laid awake worrying, that’s what my brain came out with.


And I suppose what I mean is that if any power make it retrospectively about rules so mandatory vaccines, restrictions and stuff are set against what looks like rule breaking with no sign of any apology or explanation, it starts to look a bit like fascism… and that’s when people might start to say no. On all sides, maybe. I hope I’m totally wrong but my scant knowledge of history tells me we have learned a lot about the power of vaccines and medicine but not a lot about the social impact.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Apparently it was an after work do because they work so hard. (Dominic Raab) interesting they didn't set up something similar for ICU nurses and doctors who have worked incredibly hard. They are just rotten to the core.


Rabb seems to skip from it being work to cover for the rules (I suppose it is running a country when most of us were trying to run businesses to support the economy via Zoom..!) to it being after work to cover for Carrie being there. After work just surely be social?


----------



## Arny

MilleD said:


> That question was asked of javid on the Andrew Marr show yesterday. He was fairly unequivocal in his answer that to prevent further spread people must isolate. If they are still thinking hospital numbers will rise, I can't see them backing down on that anytime soon.


But is isolation even working that well anymore when they say the others in the household don't need to if they're double vaccinated?
I know several vaccinated who contracted it, their partners decided to isolate at the same time (which isn't required) and a few days later showed up on tests for themselves, could they have spread it in the few days before being confirmed to have it if they hadn't isolated?


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Rabb seems to skip from it being work to cover for the rules (I suppose it is running a country when most of us were trying to run businesses to support the economy via Zoom..!) to it being after work to cover for Carrie being there. After work just surely be social?


Exactly it was against the rules to meet after work for cheese and wine even if you did work really hard (which let's face it I query with Boris)


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted added to post above


----------



## Happy Paws2

Cleo38 said:


> But vulnerable people are already dying, not from Covid but other illnesses & they are dying (or suffering) alone because of rules to keep us 'safe'. Some people may have time to wait for things to get better but others do not. I have recently learned that two of my friends have been diagnosed with cancer. They are choosing to continue to see people (sensibly) & I have no intentions of letting rules set by our useless government stop from me from seeing them.
> 
> I will choose to do what I see fit & use my common sense


Yes people are dying with other things as well as Cobvid and can't get a hospital bed because selfish people who haven't been vaccinated are taking up beds.

Sorry to hear about your friends hope everything does well for them.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> There was a thing I was reading about moralising of illness which happened an awful lot by governments in the HIV/AIDS outbreak. THis behaviour - don't do this and moral judgement- lost a generation of men.
> 
> It got me thinking about how Covid is becoming a moral illness too. Them, us, you and me, what we can or can't do is open to interpretation right now and therefore personal acts. If that makes sense?
> 
> It feels like it's about individualism and not about collective action. And that isn't ever going to cut it as we've found, in my opinion.
> 
> Governments and those in power are, as I understand from the human rights acts, meant to overcome individualism by creating rules (rightly or wrongly). They are responsible for all including those who decide not to vaccinate.
> 
> It feels to me like we have people in power who are consciously (or unconsciously) moralising Covid by being individualists, as demonstrated by the parties, Boris not wearing a mask etc. In most circumstances people might allow for it but when lives are at risk, one has to act collectively since what anyone here does, affects indirectly another.
> 
> that's probably a whole bunch of waffle but at 2am when I laid awake worrying, that's what my brain came out with.
> 
> And I suppose what I mean is that if any power make it retrospectively about rules so mandatory vaccines, restrictions and stuff are set against what looks like rule breaking with no sign of any apology or explanation, it starts to look a bit like fascism… and that's when people might start to say no. On all sides, maybe. I hope I'm totally wrong but my scant knowledge of history tells me we have learned a lot about the power of vaccines and medicine but not a lot about the social impact.


There are two big differences between the HIV epidemic and the Covid pandemic.

When it first appeared HIV was considered to be a gay man's disease an opinion that persisted long after it became obvious that it affected all sexually active people. Another contributing factor to the spreading of the disease was the condemnation of the Catholic church over the wearing of condoms.

And in common to what has happened in the UK and notably Trump's reaction to Covid, it certainly didn't help when President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa refused to accept the reality and spread of the disease in the country.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493153/

*HIV Is a Story First Written on the Bodies of Gay and Bisexual Men*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS

*Catholic Church and HIV/AIDS*

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1125376/

*The politics of AIDS in South Africa: beyond the controversies*


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> There are two big differences between the HIV epidemic and the Covid pandemic.
> 
> When it first appeared HIV was considered to be a gay man's disease an opinion that persisted long after it became obvious that it affected all sexually active people. Another contributing factor to the spreading of the disease was the condemnation of the Catholic church over the wearing of condoms.
> 
> And in common to what has happened in the UK and notably Trump's reaction to Covid, it certainly didn't help when President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa refused to accept the reality and spread of the disease in the country.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493153/
> 
> *HIV Is a Story First Written on the Bodies of Gay and Bisexual Men*
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS
> 
> *Catholic Church and HIV/AIDS*
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1125376/
> 
> *The politics of AIDS in South Africa: beyond the controversies*


And it's the moralising that created attitudes and stigma.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes people are dying with other things as well as Cobvid and can't get a hospital bed because selfish people who haven't been vaccinated are taking up beds.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your friends hope everything does well for them.


It doesn't make them selfish, there's all sorts of reasons people don't get vaccinated. I know I almost didn't want to. My OH had to reassure me. I'm phobic of needles, and medical places in general, and wouldn't have had it done on my own.


----------



## Boxer123

HarlequinCat said:


> It doesn't make them selfish, there's all sorts of reasons people don't get vaccinated. I know I almost didn't want to. My OH had to reassure me. I'm phobic of needles, and medical places in general, and wouldn't have had it done on my own.


It took me three attempts to get my second one I was so anxious now we are being asked to have a third


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> And it's the moralising that created attitudes and stigma.


Exactly and in the case of HIV many of them deadly!

One of the main arguments amongst the black male population was that "Real men don't wear condoms" and this was compounded because in many African cultures a woman isn't considered marriageable until she's proved herself to be fertile.

It was also widely believed you could be cured of HIV if you had sex with a virgin and and as a result young girls often as young as 18 months to 3 years of age were being raped, even sometimes gang raped.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> Exactly and in the case of HIV many of them deadly!
> 
> *One of the main arguments amongst the black male population was that "Real men don't wear condoms" and this was compounded because in many African cultures a woman isn't considered marriageable until she's proved herself to be fertile.*
> 
> It was also widely believed you could be cured of HIV if you had sex with a virgin and and as a result young girls often as young as 18 months to 3 years of age were being raped, even sometimes gang raped.


Scary stuff with terrible aftermath. I was astonished at some of the judgments made in the U.K. during the 80s when I watched a documentary about Freddie Mercury and how music tried to change attitudes.

Incidentally a friend of mine, Yvonne who wrote a book 'Finding My Plan B' writes and speaks about this and the myth of fertility in African culture as a childless woman. It's an sobering story of moral judgement.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I don’t think one can really compare covid with aids though.

One can be spread through particles in the air, whilst going about our daily life … the other isn’t (as far as I’m aware). 

I believe that was why Princess Diana made so much of touching aids sufferers to show it was safe. To help dispel the myths and prejudices.

The same can’t be said with covid… I’m sure she would have been wearing masks and following the rules, like most of us.

There was a lady on tv this morning, desperate for a life saving transplant op to save her from dying of Diabetes Type 1 complications and despite there being a suitable donor, there were no ICU beds as they were full of unvaccinated covid patients. So she has to wait … and hope her time doesn’t run out.

I can understand her despair.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes people are dying with other things as well as Cobvid and can't get a hospital bed because selfish people who haven't been vaccinated are taking up beds.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your friends hope everything does well for them.


*I haven't been vaccinated and i don't class myself as being selfish. I respect those that have chosen because that is their choice. But it's a shame that " some" of those that chose to be vaccinated don't show the same respect.So much for being a free country.*
*I might point out, this FOOL of a prime minister BJ has NEVER imo shown any regard to the dangers of covid.*
*We are led to believe, he was taken into hospital with covid, put in ICU, and then what does he do? He hasn't shown a bit of respect to those that treated him. He has visited hospitals without wearing a mask, had parties when he told us not to. His father and sister both broke the rules during loc down.*
*Now i ask this., would ANYONE else act like this?*


----------



## ForestWomble

Happy Paws2 said:


> I understand that, but if we don't things will just get worse and some of the most vulnerable of us are going to die.
> 
> *We need to show BJ and his staff that we are better than them*.


Exactly, just because someone breaks the rules or does something wrong, does not mean others should follow, if we all say *$%£ it, I'm not going to bother anymore, where does that leave us?

I understand, I do, we are seeing our government breaking the rules during a time where so many were/are suffering, but we need to collectively prove that we are better then them, that we care about our country and fellow people, continue to do whats right and hopefully we will finally see the turning point and things can improve and we can, as a nation, start to recover.
Then at the next election we can then show them how we feel.

But however much you (general you) want to just not bother any more, why follow the acts of someone you are angry with? Why make yourself as bad? Don't sink with them, rise above and feel proud that you are better than them.

*gets off box and hides behind rock*


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> There was a thing I was reading about moralising of illness which happened an awful lot by governments in the HIV/AIDS outbreak. THis behaviour - don't do this and moral judgement- lost a generation of men.
> 
> It got me thinking about how Covid is becoming a moral illness too. Them, us, you and me, what we can or can't do is open to interpretation right now and therefore personal acts. If that makes sense?
> .


There is a huge difference between HIV/AIDS and Covid though.

Your own actions mainly tended to dictate whether you were at risk of HIV/AIDS.

With Covid, you can take all the precautions under the sun to protect yourself and still catch it from someone who didn't.

'Open to interpretation' I don't buy either to be honest. Yes, the messages have been mixed on what was and was not _law _at any one time. But outside of that, we _all _know how to minimise risk to others. It's just that sometimes those actions don't tally with wanting to go to the pub, or round a friend's house, or to a party etc etc etc.

And I'm including myself in this, not having a pop at others.


----------



## Cleo38

ForestWomble said:


> Exactly, just because someone breaks the rules or does something wrong, does not mean others should follow, if we all say *$%£ it, I'm not going to bother anymore, where does that leave us?
> 
> I understand, I do, we are seeing our government breaking the rules during a time where so many were/are suffering, but we need to collectively prove that we are better then them, that we care about our country and fellow people,* continue to do whats right* and hopefully we will finally see the turning point and things can improve and we can, as a nation, start to recover.
> Then at the next election we can then show them how we feel.
> 
> But however much you (general you) want to just not bother any more, why follow the acts of someone you are angry with? Why make yourself as bad? Don't sink with them, rise above and feel proud that you are better.
> 
> *gets off box and hides behind rock*


But what is 'right'? We all have different interpretations & IMO no one is wrong. If we are going to be told households can't mix then that would mean I wouldn't be able to see my friends, two of which may not got long left. Why would follow 'rules' I thought were morally wrong & inhumane?


----------



## Magyarmum

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't think one can really compare covid with aids though.
> 
> One can be spread through particles in the air, whilst going about our daily life … the other isn't (as far as I'm aware).
> 
> I believe that was why Princess Diana made so much of touching aids sufferers to show it was safe. To help dispel the myths and prejudices.
> 
> The same can't be said with covid… I'm sure she would have been wearing masks and following the rules, like most of us.
> 
> There was a lady on tv this morning, desperate for a life saving transplant op to save her from dying of Diabetes Type 1 complications and despite there being a suitable donor, there were no ICU beds as they were full of unvaccinated covid patients. So she has to wait … and hope her time doesn't run out.
> 
> I can understand her despair.


I don't think we were comparing HIV with Covid in the way you're describing. What we were comparing were the attitudes, misconceptions and government indecisiveness that have surrounded both the diseases.

My son also suffers from Type 1 Diabetes. In August this year he was unexpectedly admitted to hospital to have a serious bypass op in an effort to save his leg from amputation. He spent 2 days in ICU plus another 8 days in hospital.

From what I understand it really depends on the part of the country you live in. When my DIL's mother who is 82 and lives in Edinburgh fractured her femur earlier this year she had to wait for 4 days before they could operate.


----------



## O2.0

JANICE199 said:


> I haven't been vaccinated and i don't class myself as being selfish.


Yes, this us vs them mentality between vaccinated and not has to stop. Comments like unvaccinated people being selfish, and the way the media in particular is treating those who don't want to get vaccinated is not helping anything.

When you are fully vaccinated and being told you still have to mask and take all the same precautions as anyone who isn't vaccinated, it does become a bit of "what's the point"? 
The other thing we're not talking about or admitting is that many people have had covid and still have immunity from the original infection as shown by their antibody levels. I can see why someone who had covid, recovered, and gets antibody tested could logically argue that they're just as 'safe' as someone who is vaccinated.


----------



## Magyarmum

I'm so lucky living in a country where the rules are clear and simple and above all apart from a little loosening or tightening from time to time, the regulations have remained consistent throughout the pandemic.


----------



## ForestWomble

Cleo38 said:


> But what is 'right'? We all have different interpretations & IMO no one is wrong. If we are going to be told households can't mix then that would mean I wouldn't be able to see my friends, two of which may not got long left. Why would follow 'rules' I thought were morally wrong & inhumane?


I am sorry to hear about your friends, but lots of us are in the same situation, I for one haven't seen my Gran since before the pandemic began, she has cancer and we didn't think she was going to see Christmas 2020, yet she is still here, I still don't know if I will ever get to see her again, if she will still be alive by the end of the pandemic, but as much as that hurts, I couldn't bare it if in my selfishness I visited her and gave her covid as there is a huge chance that that really would kill her (I'm very much a hermit and only go out with my dog, I haven't been to a shop since 2019 and am careful when out, but I do see my parents, it's hard to keep away from the neighbours as we live practically on top of each other and have had workmen in my home so there is a chance I could get unlucky).
Like you, some people might be fine with the risk but the problem there is if any of you got covid, how many others would you spread it to? It's not just about you and them, it's about everyone as a whole. If we all just decided to not follow the rules covid would spread uncontrolled, now we might get lucky and it'll mutate to get weaker and it'll just become a bad cold, but it could mutate to a deadlier strain and we could end up with an awful situation. However which ever way it goes, there is the danger that during that 'journey' we could end up with lots more unnecessary deaths because we did nothing to protect the vulnerable.
Yes, your friends might not have long left, but then again they might, cancer thank goodness is not always a death sentence these days, however, what would be their chances if they got covid?


----------



## HarlequinCat

I agree that if you have had covid there should not be a need for a booster. I think exposure to the actual virus gives you very good immunity naturally


----------



## HarlequinCat

ForestWomble said:


> I am sorry to hear about your friends, but lots of us are in the same situation, I for one haven't seen my Gran since before the pandemic began, she has cancer and we didn't think she was going to see Christmas 2020, yet she is still here, I still don't know if I will ever get to see her again, if she will still be alive by the end of the pandemic, but as much as that hurts, I couldn't bare it if in my selfishness I visited her and gave her covid as there is a huge chance that that really would kill her (I'm very much a hermit and only go out with my dog, I haven't been to a shop since 2019 and am careful when out, but I do see my parents, it's hard to keep away from the neighbours as we don't have private outdoor spaces and have had workmen in my home so there is a chance I could get unlucky).
> Like you, some people might be fine with the risk but the problem there is if any of you got covid, how many others would you spread it to? It's not just about you and them, it's about everyone as a whole. If we all just decided to not follow the rules covid would spread uncontrolled, now we might get lucky and it'll mutate to get weaker and it'll just become a bad cold, but it could mutate to a deadlier strain and we could end up with an awful situation. However which ever way it goes, there is the danger that during that 'journey' we could end up with lots more unnecessary deaths
> because we did nothing to protect the vulnerable.
> Yes, your friends might not have long left, but then again they might, cancer thank goodness is not always a death sentence these days, however, what would be their chances if they got covid?


Sorry to hear you've not seen your nan for a long time @ForestWomble . In better weather when it is warmer is it possible to meet her outdoors? There is little chance of passing it to anyone then. Plus if you are on your own with little exposure to other people you have much higher odds of not having it for her to catch to begin with. It might make you both feel better if you could see her at some point.


----------



## O2.0

ForestWomble said:


> Yes, your friends might not have long left, but then again they might, cancer thank goodness is not always a death sentence these days, however, what would be their chances if they got covid?


We actually have good data on your chances if you get covid  
Here in the US the CDC tracks cases and recovery and over 98% of people with known cases of covid survive. And that's known cases, many people in the US particularly get sick and don't get tested or get medical care because since we have to pay for doctor visits we tend to wait until we're dying to see a doctor (that's a whole 'nother story!)

But yes, the survivial rate for covid is going to be higher than 98%
"As of July 23, there were more than 34.3 million known cases of COVID-19 in the United States and 610,370 deaths, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. That means the case fatality ratio -- or the portion of known cases that result in death in the country -- is 1.8%. In other words, on average, 98.2% of known COVID-19 patients in the U.S. survive. Because the true number of infections is much larger than just the documented cases, the actual survival rate of all COVID-19 infections is even higher than 98.2%."
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-970830023526


----------



## ForestWomble

HarlequinCat said:


> Sorry to hear you've not seen your nan for a long time @ForestWomble . In better weather when it is warmer is it possible to meet her outdoors? There is little chance of passing it to anyone then. Plus if you are on your own with little exposure to other people you have much higher odds of not having it for her to catch to begin with. It might make you both feel better if you could see her at some point.


Thank you. It is something I hope could be a possibility.


----------



## ForestWomble

O2.0 said:


> We actually have good data on your chances if you get covid
> Here in the US the CDC tracks cases and recovery and over 98% of people with known cases of covid survive. And that's known cases, many people in the US particularly get sick and don't get tested or get medical care because since we have to pay for doctor visits we tend to wait until we're dying to see a doctor (that's a whole 'nother story!)
> 
> But yes, the survivial rate for covid is going to be higher than 98%
> "As of July 23, there were more than 34.3 million known cases of COVID-19 in the United States and 610,370 deaths, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. That means the case fatality ratio -- or the portion of known cases that result in death in the country -- is 1.8%. In other words, on average, 98.2% of known COVID-19 patients in the U.S. survive. Because the true number of infections is much larger than just the documented cases, the actual survival rate of all COVID-19 infections is even higher than 98.2%."
> https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-970830023526


Oh thank you so much for that!


----------



## Jobeth

ForestWomble said:


> Oh thank you so much for that!


This is a link to the data for England and was last updated in September. It shows how your risk reduces with each vaccination.


----------



## ForestWomble

Jobeth said:


> This is a link to the data for England and was last updated in September. It shows how your risk reduces with each vaccination.
> View attachment 480679


Thank you.


----------



## Siskin

Jobeth said:


> This is a link to the data for England and was last updated in September. It shows how your risk reduces with each vaccination.
> View attachment 480679


Blimey, that is a sobering set of numbers especially if you are not or only partially vaccinated


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I don't like myself for how I am feeling about people. I don't like being cross at people not wearing a mask, not having a vaccination, hosting a big party (or whatever else!). I really don't. But I find myself still feeling this way. I do at least acknowledge this and try to not let it out in how I speak to people. The "them and us" mentality is interesting to me. Very much "divide and conquer" which the ruling classes have been doing for years in many different guises. Let's blame the unvaccinated population for the spread, rather than ill-advised behaviours such as, oh I don't know, sitting in a garden drinking wine after work when people couldn't see loved ones dying, nor go to funerals, nor go for a walk with a mate 'cos you had a cup of tea with you and so it was a social gathering. The cynic in me keeps wondering 1) who took the photos (Cummings?) and 2) are they coming out now to try to sneak another lockdown under the radar? Have everyone really angry about the govt behaviour and *bing* there's another Lockdown starting on Monday.

So there's a Cabernet meeting now (hahaha, that did make me laugh when I saw it on twitter earlier), let's see what it brings.

Today I feel very sad about it all and am almost ready to just go, "Sod it, I'm going out drinking and dancing". The furthest I shall take it is actually going to the panto I have tickets for on Thursday night. I shall go, wearing my mask, see how it is. I suspect lots of people won't go, so there will be many empty seats.

I'm with @Boxer123 on the Long Covid thing. I reckon I would be okay with Covid, I'm pretty fit, had three jabs, no longer enormously overweight...but Long Covid frightens me - and this fear is what keeps me behaving the way I do.


----------



## Magyarmum

Mrs Funkin said:


> I don't like myself for how I am feeling about people. I don't like being cross at people not wearing a mask, not having a vaccination, hosting a big party (or whatever else!). I really don't. But I find myself still feeling this way. I do at least acknowledge this and try to not let it out in how I speak to people. The "them and us" mentality is interesting to me. Very much "divide and conquer" which the ruling classes have been doing for years in many different guises. Let's blame the unvaccinated population for the spread, rather than ill-advised behaviours such as, oh I don't know, sitting in a garden drinking wine after work when people couldn't see loved ones dying, nor go to funerals, nor go for a walk with a mate 'cos you had a cup of tea with you and so it was a social gathering. The cynic in me keeps wondering 1) who took the photos (Cummings?) and 2) are they coming out now to try to sneak another lockdown under the radar? Have everyone really angry about the govt behaviour and *bing* there's another Lockdown starting on Monday.
> 
> So there's a Cabernet meeting now (hahaha, that did make me laugh when I saw it on twitter earlier), let's see what it brings.
> 
> Today I feel very sad about it all and am almost ready to just go, "Sod it, I'm going out drinking and dancing". The furthest I shall take it is actually going to the panto I have tickets for on Thursday night. I shall go, wearing my mask, see how it is. I suspect lots of people won't go, so there will be many empty seats.
> *
> I'm with @Boxer123 on the Long Covid thing. I reckon I would be okay with Covid, I'm pretty fit, had three jabs, no longer enormously overweight...but Long Covid frightens me - and this fear is what keeps me behaving the way I do*.


It's all fine and dandy people saying 98% of people who've been infected with the virus will survive ...... but at what cost?

Studies have found that more than half the people who've recover from the virus suffer from Long Covid for up to six months after recovery.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211013114112.htm

*How many people get 'long COVID'? More than half, researchers find*


----------



## Cleo38

ForestWomble said:


> I am sorry to hear about your friends, but lots of us are in the same situation, I for one haven't seen my Gran since before the pandemic began, she has cancer and we didn't think she was going to see Christmas 2020, yet she is still here, I still don't know if I will ever get to see her again, if she will still be alive by the end of the pandemic, but as much as that hurts, I couldn't bare it if in my selfishness I visited her and gave her covid as there is a huge chance that that really would kill her (I'm very much a hermit and only go out with my dog, I haven't been to a shop since 2019 and am careful when out, but I do see my parents, it's hard to keep away from the neighbours as we live practically on top of each other and have had workmen in my home so there is a chance I could get unlucky).
> Like you, some people might be fine with the risk but the problem there is if any of you got covid, how many others would you spread it to? It's not just about you and them, it's about everyone as a whole. If we all just decided to not follow the rules covid would spread uncontrolled, now we might get lucky and it'll mutate to get weaker and it'll just become a bad cold, but it could mutate to a deadlier strain and we could end up with an awful situation. However which ever way it goes, there is the danger that during that 'journey' we could end up with lots more unnecessary deaths because we did nothing to protect the vulnerable.
> Yes, your friends might not have long left, but then again they might, cancer thank goodness is not always a death sentence these days, however, what would be their chances if they got covid?


Am sorry about your gran, & obviously don't know your whole situation. maybe your gran is also happy not seeing her relatives & isolating but many older people aren't & the lack of social interactions is crippling them. When my mum was still alive there was no question that I wouldn't see her. I always asked her obviously what she wanted & then took my guidance from that. She continued to see a couple of her friends & now I am glad she did.

Me seeing my mum wasn't due to my selfishness but asking her what she wanted. Same with my friends, I will abide by their wishes. if they want to go out then we will, if they want to meet up with friends then we will. Yes, they may get Covid but they have terminal cancer. They are going to die anyway,. what would be the point of sitting at home alone waiting to die? Maybe some people are ok with that but many aren't & I honestly don't blame them.

We take chances every day & I suppose we all do internal risk assessments. For me the thought of leaving loved ones to exist on their own if they are desperate for company is not something I would allow to happen


----------



## MollySmith

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't think one can really compare covid with aids though.
> 
> One can be spread through particles in the air, whilst going about our daily life … the other isn't (as far as I'm aware).
> 
> I believe that was why Princess Diana made so much of touching aids sufferers to show it was safe. To help dispel the myths and prejudices.
> 
> The same can't be said with covid… I'm sure she would have been wearing masks and following the rules, like most of us.
> 
> There was a lady on tv this morning, desperate for a life saving transplant op to save her from dying of Diabetes Type 1 complications and despite there being a suitable donor, there were no ICU beds as they were full of unvaccinated covid patients. So she has to wait … and hope her time doesn't run out.
> 
> I can understand her despair.


It is the moralising as in actions, so to cite the Royal Family to show them leading by action, which they've consistently done in as much I have seen. I wasn't attempting to compare them as viruses with their outcomes, they are different in their transmission and lots of other ways I'm not medically qualified to say.

I wasn't sure if I had articulated what was in my head at 2am!!

I don't think we're at the place of stigma as far as anti-vax or attitude but we're close.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> There is a huge difference between HIV/AIDS and Covid though.
> 
> Your own actions mainly tended to dictate whether you were at risk of HIV/AIDS.
> 
> With Covid, you can take all the precautions under the sun to protect yourself and still catch it from someone who didn't.
> 
> 'Open to interpretation' I don't buy either to be honest. Yes, the messages have been mixed on what was and was not _law _at any one time. But outside of that, we _all _know how to minimise risk to others. It's just that sometimes those actions don't tally with wanting to go to the pub, or round a friend's house, or to a party etc etc etc.
> 
> And I'm including myself in this, not having a pop at others.


I absolutely appreciate and agree with what you say, I'm very much of the mindset that we shouldn't have to get guidance from government to know what to do. But there is that bit of society which alarmingly does need it and then it becomes tangled in human rights and stigma.

I have been vaccinated, mask wearing etc but confess I look at some of the counter views and think fair point which I wasn't maybe a few months ago. I think my brain was trying to untangle that odd feeling to no real conclusion! Nothing new there!


----------



## ForestWomble

Cleo38 said:


> Am sorry about your gran, & obviously don't know your whole situation. maybe your gran is also happy not seeing her relatives & isolating but many older people aren't & the lack of social interactions is crippling them. When my mum was still alive there was no question that I wouldn't see her. I always asked her obviously what she wanted & then took my guidance from that. She continued to see a couple of her friends & now I am glad she did.
> 
> Me seeing my mum wasn't due to my selfishness but asking her what she wanted. Same with my friends, I will abide by their wishes. if they want to go out then we will, if they want to meet up with friends then we will. Yes, they may get Covid but they have terminal cancer. They are going to die anyway,. what would be the point of sitting at home alone waiting to die? Maybe some people are ok with that but many aren't & I honestly don't blame them.
> 
> We take chances every day & I suppose we all do internal risk assessments. For me the thought of leaving loved ones to exist on their own if they are desperate for company is not something I would allow to happen


That is different, with my comments above I was answering in the mindset that all involved could still have many years to live, terminal illnesses are completely different and I fully understand wanting to see them, in my mind for as long as you (general you) are sensible then I see no reason why you can't visit.


----------



## Cleo38

ForestWomble said:


> That is different, with my comments above I was answering in the mindset that all involved could still have many years to live, terminal illnesses are completely different and I fully understand wanting to see them, in my mind for as long as you (general you) are sensible then I see no reason why you can't visit.


Yes, but I think so many people will have similar situations so it's not as easy (IMO) as doing the right things as there are so many variations of this from a personal viewpoint. It is such a sad situation for so many people & I hate the thought of yet again people being denied human interactions.


----------



## O2.0

Magyarmum said:


> It's all fine and dandy people saying 98% of people who've been infected with the virus will survive ...... but at what cost?
> 
> Studies have found that more than half the people who've recover from the virus suffer from Long Covid for up to six months after recovery.
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211013114112.htm
> 
> *How many people get 'long COVID'? More than half, researchers find*


These were all unvaccinated individuals, *79%* of which had been hospitalized with covid.
"The researchers conducted a systematic review of 57 reports that included data from 250,351 unvaccinated adults and children who were diagnosed with COVID-19 from December 2019 through March 2021. Among those studied, 79% were hospitalized, and most patients (79%) lived in high-income countries. Patients' median age was 54, and the majority of individuals (56%) were male."

That doesn't even remotely equal saying that 50% of people who get covid will have long covid. 
This is a great example of scare tactic headlines and statistical skewing. 
The CDC says that unvaccinated people are 29 times more likely to end up hospitalized, and In the general population, I think hospitalization rates are around 2% or even less as not all covid cases are even reported or known about. 
So again, the vast majority of people who get covid will be fine. And now that people are vaccinated, even if you do get covid, odds are you will be just fine.

I'm not making light of the terrible death toll and those who are currently suffering with covid or long covid, but I do think we have to be much more realistic about this disease.


----------



## ForestWomble

Cleo38 said:


> Yes, but I think so many people will have similar situations so it's not as easy (IMO) as doing the right things as there are so many variations of this from a personal viewpoint. It is such a sad situation for so many people & I hate the thought of yet again people being denied human interactions.


Oh yes it's not easy. I am fully aware (personally) that due to the rules there was lots of suffering in lots of different ways and its not black and white, right and wrong etc.
I don't know what the answer is, people breaking the rules willy-nilly is not the way to go if we want to see an end to this, but also we can't allow the suffering (mental and physical) to continue either.

I guess, somehow the rules need to continue to keep people safe, but allow there to be some leeway (like the bubble thing last year).


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting interview with Professor Brendan Delaney

https://www.ips-journal.eu/intervie...211220&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

*'With Long Covid, there's a minimisation push'*

*As Omicron is spreading rapidly across Europe, Covid-19 is still treated as an acute condition only. That's wrong, says Professor Brendan Delaney*


----------



## O2.0

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting interview with Professor Brendan Delaney
> 
> https://www.ips-journal.eu/intervie...211220&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
> 
> *'With Long Covid, there's a minimisation push'*
> 
> *As Omicron is spreading rapidly across Europe, Covid-19 is still treated as an acute condition only. That's wrong, says Professor Brendan Delaney*


From your link:
"97-98 per cent of people who get Covid-19 are not going to end up with Long Covid if they've been vaccinated."

I do think long covid is and should be a concern, but also be realistic about how much of a concern it should be, and how beneficial it is to be vaccinated.


----------



## Jesthar

O2.0 said:


> I do think long covid is and should be a concern, but also be realistic about how much of a concern it should be, and how beneficial it is to be vaccinated.


The problem is we don't really know how big the impact will be yet. For some, long Covid may only be six months or so, for others it may never go away - one of my closest friends got Covid despite being very careful, and has been left with rheumatoid arthritis that can only be controlled with drugs so powerful they leave her immunocompromised. And permanent damage to organs like lungs needs to be taken into account as well.


----------



## O2.0

Jesthar said:


> The problem is we don't really know how big the impact will be yet. For some, long Covid may only be six months or so, for others it may never go away - one of my closest friends got Covid despite being very careful, and has been left with rheumatoid arthritis that can only be controlled with drugs so powerful they leave her immunocompromised. And permanent damage to organs like lungs needs to be taken into account as well.


Again, not discounting the impact, but many illnesses have long term effects. Something as simple as a case of strep throat which around here we have outbreaks of every winter, and no one thinks twice about, can leave you with permanent heart disease. 
Other contagious diseases and their effects we've forgotten about because they're not as trendy as covid:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02911-x
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4711


----------



## Jesthar

O2.0 said:


> Again, not discounting the impact, but many illnesses have long term effects. Something as simple as a case of strep throat which around here we have outbreaks of every winter, and no one thinks twice about, can leave you with permanent heart disease.
> Other contagious diseases and their effects we've forgotten about because they're not as trendy as covid:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02911-x
> https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4711


As I said, we don't yet know what the long term impact of long Covid is, whilst by now we have a good idea of the potential long term effects of most of those referenced there. It's worth noting that some of the biggies in those articles have very different transmissiion vectors too - HIV requires the exchange of bodily fluids in some way (including sharps), and malaria needs a specific species of mosquito. The closest analogue is probably flu, and we have long had vaccines to help with the control of that.

What we DO provisionally know is that so far the statistics seem to indicate getting vaccinated against Covid significantly reduces the chance of long term Covid. Obviously those statistics will be refined and developed as we learn more, but if the Penn State research of 50%+ of uvaccinated patients and the BMJ estimates of 2-3% of vaccinated patients turn out to both be in the right ballpark, that's a massive reduction in risk and overall severity for a relatively small outlay.


----------



## O2.0

Jesthar said:


> What we DO provisionally know is that so far the statistics seem to indicate getting vaccinated against Covid significantly reduces the chance of long term Covid. Obviously those statistics will be refined and developed as we learn more, but if the Penn State research of 50%+ of uvaccinated patients and the BMJ estimates of 2-3% of vaccinated patients turn out to both be in the right ballpark, that's a massive reduction in risk and overall severity for a relatively small outlay.


Exactly. 
We're not even remotely where we were this time last year. 
We have an incredibly effective vaccine, we have effective treatments that we didn't have initially. 
We have a much better handle on this virus and disease thanks to the hard work of scientists than we did when it first reared it's head. 
So why the doom and gloom? Why the expectation to behave as if none of the new science to fight covid exists? Why the fear mongering? Why the media (social and mainstream) obsession with making omicron sound like a great white circling the bay? It's a guppy in comparison.

There's a lot we don't know but there is a lot we DO know and we need to be using that knowledge instead of continuing to live in fear and disrupt lives in such significant ways. 
And no, I don't mean having to wear a mask or not go to the pub. I mean leaving dementia patients alone and confused without familiar visitors and leaving cancer patients to go through treatments alone. That kind of disruption.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

The announcement there will be no restrictions before the 25th seems to have helped my local high street, driving through earlier today it was heaving, could do without the awful traffic but nice to see people out and about and supporting local business, it had until day been very quiet for this time of the year so glad to see it busy. The reducing of isolation from 10 to seven days if tests are negative will also hopefully help get people back to work quicker. Hopefully once the demand for boosters dies down and it becomes obvious everyone who wants one has had one, a couple of weeks after that they do away with isolating completely.


----------



## kirksandallchins

I don't know how I feel about Covid!

It's sad that people have died and businesses have gone bankrupt, but I have to admit I love working from home.
I have asthma and a host of other health problems, and have now had all three jabs. I was paranoid about Covid 19 and have not had a social life for the best part of two years 

BUT I am starting to think the Government are to using Covid as a cover for bad news. Migrants and inflation were regularly top items on the news, but a new strain has appeared and given a scary sounding name (like something out of a Sci Fi movie) and suddenly boats crossing the Channel from France, parties at No. 10 and the rise in interest rates are not mentioned or just glossed over 
Now we are supposed to be grateful we can have Christmas and will accept restrictions afterwards. But if the Government was worried, new rules would be brought in now whether it was Christmas or not.

The longer Covid goes on the more sceptical I become.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Poland reported today 772 deaths.
73% of those had no vaccinations. 
Very few had all vaccinations and boosters, and those were elderly and unwell.

Poland has just above half of the population vaccinated.
Polish right wing government really sent messages.
Like openly supporting mass gatherings for National Day in November … 

I am afraid BJ does not send a clear message either…


----------



## MilleD

kirksandallchins said:


> I don't know how I feel about Covid!
> 
> It's sad that people have died and businesses have gone bankrupt, but I have to admit I love working from home.
> I have asthma and a host of other health problems, and have now had all three jabs. I was paranoid about Covid 19 and have not had a social life for the best part of two years
> 
> BUT I am starting to think the Government are to using Covid as a cover for bad news. Migrants and inflation were regularly top items on the news, but a new strain has appeared and given a scary sounding name (like something out of a Sci Fi movie) and suddenly boats crossing the Channel from France, parties at No. 10 and the rise in interest rates are not mentioned or just glossed over
> Now we are supposed to be grateful we can have Christmas and will accept restrictions afterwards. But if the Government was worried, new rules would be brought in now whether it was Christmas or not.
> 
> The longer Covid goes on the more sceptical I become.


Sceptical as in it isn't real??

All those things are still reported, you aren't looking in the right places.

The reason they haven't bought in measures before Christmas isn't because they are not worried, it's because they simply don't have the data on hospital admissions and serious illness to be able to justify any further restrictions. If they did that with no evidence, there would be uproar still - they can't do right for doing wrong - and you are messing with the economy and livelihoods with further restrictions.

It's not a scary sounding name, it's a letter in the Greek alphabet. Same as Alpha, Beta and Delta.


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> there were no ICU beds as they were full of unvaccinated covid patients.


Such a shame they did not have enough intensive care nurses to keep at least some of the Nightingale hospitals open after the amazing accomplishment of building them in record time.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MilleD said:


> The reason they haven't bought in measures before Christmas isn't because they are not worried, it's because they simply don't have the data on hospital admissions and serious illness to be able to justify any further restrictions.


They _are _introducing further restrictions across the rest of the UK to follow the new guidance from researchers and the NHS. England are not following the trend (as usual) but I'd be damned surprised if restrictions don't come into force in England after New Years (or even Christmas).


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> They _are _introducing further restrictions across the rest of the UK to follow the new guidance from researchers and the NHS. England are not following the trend (as usual) but I'd be damned surprised if restrictions don't come into force in England after New Years (or even Christmas).


I just wish BJ would get his act together and tell what the new rules are going to be after Christmas, the other Home Nations have.


----------



## MilleD

bmr10 said:


> They _are _introducing further restrictions across the rest of the UK to follow the new guidance from researchers and the NHS. England are not following the trend (as usual) but I'd be damned surprised if restrictions don't come into force in England after New Years (or even Christmas).


I'm in England so was talking about England.

People don't seem to understand the demographics difference between the home nations.


----------



## JANICE199

*I cannot understand for the life of me how we are being lied to and they get away with their lies. We ALL know our NHS is at breaking point, but what i want to know is this. *
*We were told about the nightingale hospistals being put in place, But what " I " didn't know was how much was given to private hospitals to help out. Worth a look at. " MPs are being urged to examine how UK private hospitals secured potentially billions of pounds to help the NHS during the pandemic but treated very few covid patients and delivered fewer NHS funded operations than usual."*
*https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2471*


----------



## £54etgfb6

MilleD said:


> I'm in England so was talking about England.
> 
> People don't seem to understand the demographics difference between the home nations.


I don't know where the original poster is from and I did not want them to assume that the entirety of the UK are not introducing restrictions.

Regarding demographic differences, what are you referring to? England has seen a rise in covid cases over the past few weeks similar to the rest of the UK. England have lagged behind in introducing restrictions and have eased them earlier than the rest of the UK because of their government, in my opinion.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just wish BJ would get his act together and tell what the new rules are going to be after Christmas, the other Home Nations have.


Andy Burham..........the guy that should be Labour leader agrees with the way Boris is handling this and doesn't think we should go to lockdown. The guy had integrity and isn't playing party politics like the currant leader


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> I don't know where the original poster is from and I did not want them to assume that the entirety of the UK are not introducing restrictions.
> 
> Regarding demographic differences, what are you referring to? England has seen a rise in covid cases over the past few weeks similar to the rest of the UK. England have lagged behind in introducing restrictions and have eased them earlier than the rest of the UK because of their government, in my opinion.


The rest of the UK have a stronger government than England, our PM is weak.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> The rest of the UK have a stronger government than England, our PM is weak.


You've not yet seen all the pictures of them having parties last year then?


----------



## O2.0

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/...000-profit-every-second-while-world-s-poorest

_"Based on company financial statements, the Alliance estimates that Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna will make pre-tax profits of $34 billion this year between them, which works out as over a thousand dollars a second, $65,000 a minute or $93.5 million a day. The monopolies these companies hold have produced five new billionaires during the pandemic, with a combined net wealth of $35.1 billion."
_
Does anyone wonder why the huge push for boosters but no one is being asked to get an antibody test to see if they even need a booster?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Andy Burham..........the guy that should be Labour leader agrees with the way Boris is handling this and doesn't think we should go to lockdown. The guy had integrity and isn't playing party politics like the currant leader


The only one playing politics is BJ and he has been ever since he became PM.

What ever happen to he millions the NHS was promised when we left the EU.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> The only one playing politics is BJ and he has been ever since he became PM.
> 
> What ever happen to he millions the NHS was promised when we left the EU.


Er.............Covid jabs...........LF tests.............PCR tests


----------



## Blackadder

O2.0 said:


> Does anyone wonder why the huge push for boosters but no one is being asked to get an antibody test to see if they even need a booster?


Maybe because Governments have, intentionally, frightened people so much that they can't see past what they are being told?

Antibody tests are a no-brainer instead of just boosting everyone, surely?


----------



## £54etgfb6

O2.0 said:


> Does anyone wonder why the huge push for boosters but no one is being asked to get an antibody test to see if they even need a booster?





Blackadder said:


> Antibody tests are a no-brainer instead of just boosting everyone, surely?


Antibody levels cannot be correlated to a determinable level of protection. There is no current scale to say what level of antibodies are sufficient enough for protection. 5 people can have varying levels of antibodies and be fine if they come into contact with COVID. On the other hand, those same 5 people could catch COVID and all fare badly. There are many variables other than antibody levels that go into predicting someone's health outcome when dealing with an infection.

We know that vaccination increases antibody levels, whether you already have some or not, and because testing for antibodies as a measure of protection is unreliable, boosters are currently all we have.


----------



## O2.0

Blackadder said:


> Antibody tests are a no-brainer instead of just boosting everyone, surely?


You would think. Particularly when poorer countries are clamouring for a first vaccine. 
Makes you wonder if there is more profit in vaccines or if more desirable people are profiting from vaccines.



bmr10 said:


> Antibody levels cannot be correlated to a determinable level of protection.


And yet it's antibody testing that is being touted as the reason for the need for boosters. 
"Moderna announced on Monday that its Covid vaccine boosters showed a significant increase in antibody levels against omicron in preliminary lab trials. Pfizer announced similar results earlier this month, "
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/omicron-expert-why-covid-vaccine-booster-shots-are-so-important.html
So antibodies matter or don't matter? If they don't matter why are we pushing for boosters. If they do matter, why aren't we testing for them?


----------



## Mrs Funkin

O2.0 said:


> You would think. Particularly when poorer countries are clamouring for a first vaccine.
> Makes you wonder if there is more profit in vaccines or if more desirable people are profiting from vaccines.
> 
> And yet it's antibody testing that is being touted as the reason for the need for boosters.
> "Moderna announced on Monday that its Covid vaccine boosters showed a significant increase in antibody levels against omicron in preliminary lab trials. Pfizer announced similar results earlier this month, "
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/omicron-expert-why-covid-vaccine-booster-shots-are-so-important.html
> So antibodies matter or don't matter? If they don't matter why are we pushing for boosters. If they do matter, why aren't we testing for them?


Possibly financial, for a change *tongue firmly in cheek here*. Perhaps a booster dose is cheaper than an AB test?


----------



## O2.0

Mrs Funkin said:


> Possibly financial, for a change *tongue firmly in cheek here*. Perhaps a booster dose is cheaper than an AB test?


Boosters here are free, AB tests you have to pay for, unless you donate blood then they'll do it for free. 
But either way whoever is producing the vaccines and AB tests is getting paid... The US government has paid Pfizer and Moderna upwards of *6 billion *each.


----------



## £54etgfb6

O2.0 said:


> And yet it's antibody testing that is being touted as the reason for the need for boosters.
> "Moderna announced on Monday that its Covid vaccine boosters showed a significant increase in antibody levels against omicron in preliminary lab trials. Pfizer announced similar results earlier this month, "
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/omicron-expert-why-covid-vaccine-booster-shots-are-so-important.html
> So antibodies matter or don't matter? If they don't matter why are we pushing for boosters. If they do matter, why aren't we testing for them?


Why aren't we testing for them? I answered this in my initial reply to you…….??? But i will explain again because maybe the wording was off. 
Antibodies are an integral part of innate immunity. Vaccines increase someone's antibody levels. However, while catching covid or having a vaccine will show an increase in antibodies via an antibody test there is currently no scale that can be referred to to tell you what _degree_ of protection someone has. There is no 0-10, no protection to full protection. What one number means for one individual is not transferable to another individual. Using an antibody test doesn't give you any way of knowing whether this individual's number of antibodies will be sufficient enough.

If you measure someone's antibodies in January and by May they have dropped, how do you tell whether that drop is significant enough to warrant a booster or whether it's enough to keep them safe? As above, there is no reference scale.

The idea with the boosters is to increase everyone's antibody levels progressively until case rates/death rates drop substantially enough to a point where we can then _assume_ majority of the population have a sufficient level of antibodies.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Ah yes, I meant the cost to the NHS here. I'm wondering which is cheaper for the government.


----------



## O2.0

bmr10 said:


> Why aren't we testing for them? I answered this in my initial reply to you…….??? But i will explain again because maybe the wording was off.
> Antibodies are an integral part of innate immunity. Vaccines increase someone's antibody levels. However, while catching covid or having a vaccine will show an increase in antibodies via an antibody test there is currently no scale that can be referred to to tell you what _degree_ of protection someone has. There is no 0-10, no protection to full protection. What one number means for one individual is not transferable to another individual. Using an antibody test doesn't give you any way of knowing whether this individual's number of antibodies will be sufficient enough.
> 
> If you measure someone's antibodies in January and by May they have dropped, how do you tell whether that drop is significant enough to warrant a booster or whether it's enough to keep them safe? As above, there is no reference scale.
> 
> The idea with the boosters is to increase everyone's antibody levels progressively until case rates/death rates drop substantially enough to a point where we can then _assume_ majority of the population have a sufficient level of antibodies.


You're making a compelling argument for more antibody testing. 
Isn't it better to find out more? So that we can better understand antibody levels and what levels offer protection? And in order to do that we need to do more antibody testing.
If we don't know, is the answer really more boosters or is the answer let's find out more?


----------



## O2.0

US's FDA has authorized both Merck and Pfizer's covid pills, antivirals to be given after infection. 
Should be interesting to see what effect this has on vaccines and boosters.


----------



## Calvine

O2.0 said:


> Boosters here are free, AB tests you have to pay for, unless you donate blood then they'll do it for free.
> But either way whoever is producing the vaccines and AB tests is getting paid... The US government has paid Pfizer and Moderna upwards of *6 billion *each.


 Last I heard, Pfizer were making $1000 a second from the covid vaccine. I also read that they charge different countries different amounts (maybe depending on how many doses they buy?).


----------



## SbanR

Calvine said:


> Last I heard, Pfizer were making $1000 a second from the covid vaccine. I also read that they charge different countries different amounts (maybe depending on how many doses they buy?).


But then if a country buys more, the cost per dose should drop surely?
Yet I remember reading an article which said Britain was paying the most per dose of any country (£22 per vial)


----------



## O2.0

SbanR said:


> But then if a country buys more, the cost per dose should drop surely?


I don't think that's how this is working sadly. 
US pays I believe $20 per dose. I don't think that number has changed.

And to think Jonas Salk never sought to profit from the polio vaccine...


----------



## Blackadder

O2.0 said:


> US's FDA has authorized both Merck and Pfizer's covid pills, antivirals to be given after infection.
> Should be interesting to see what effect this has on vaccines and boosters.


Wish I'd invested in Pfizer 18 months ago!


----------



## £54etgfb6

O2.0 said:


> You're making a compelling argument for more antibody testing.
> Isn't it better to find out more? So that we can better understand antibody levels and what levels offer protection? And in order to do that we need to do more antibody testing.
> If we don't know, is the answer really more boosters or is the answer let's find out more?


There isn't ever going to be a way to 100% understand what levels offer what degree of protection because fundamentally, the immune response differs between individuals. The level required is affected by the infection itself (is this the cold? the flu? what strain? etc), the risk of infection, the current health of the individual, the age of the individual, the individuals nutritional state, etc etc. These factors fluctuate (some continually) and the individual's own biochemistry (which is unique to them) plays a large role. Additionally, if you had 600 antibodies, not all 600 are capable of neutralising an infection and antibody testing kits do not take into account a person's own immune cells and their capabilities.

We could create an average but this is not all encompassing and does not negate the possibility of someone with an above average level becoming seriously ill from covid, likewise it does not negate the possibility of someone with a below average level catching covid and having no symptoms. Known antibody titres have taken years to develop are still only an approximation and not a guarantee.

Due to the regular emergence of new coronavirus strains and the factors listed above that affect an individual's ability to fight off infection, antibody testing is unreliable.


----------



## £54etgfb6

SbanR said:


> But then if a country buys more, the cost per dose should drop surely?
> Yet I remember reading an article which said Britain was paying the most per dose of any country (£22 per vial)


It really depends upon the deal that the country has made with the manufacturer. It's a business deal when it comes down to it. Countries buying larger amounts do tend to pay less you're right but a lot of it is dependent upon a country's previous relationship with the manufacturer, their negotiating abilities, any additional agreements (The EU pays less because they agreed to not publicise the prices they pay, though this didn't work out), and any potential PR stunts the manufacturer wants to pull.


----------



## O2.0

bmr10 said:


> There isn't ever going to be a way to 100% understand what levels offer what degree of protection because fundamentally, the immune response differs between individuals. The level required is affected by the infection itself (is this the cold? the flu? what strain? etc), the risk of infection, the current health of the individual, the age of the individual, the individuals nutritional state, etc etc. These factors fluctuate (some continually) and the individual's own biochemistry (which is unique to them) plays a large role. Additionally, if you had 600 antibodies, not all 600 are capable of neutralising an infection and antibody testing kits do not take into account a person's own immune cells and their capabilities.
> 
> We could create an average but this is not all encompassing and does not negate the possibility of someone with an above average level becoming seriously ill from covid, likewise it does not negate the possibility of someone with a below average level catching covid and having no symptoms. Known antibody titres have taken years to develop are still only an approximation and not a guarantee.
> 
> Due to the regular emergence of new coronavirus strains and the factors listed above that affect an individual's ability to fight off infection, antibody testing is unreliable.


For everything you've said here, the exact same thing can be said of vaccines. 
But we don't use the not knowing with 100% accuracy and surety as a reason to not vaccinate. 
Why then does this argument only apply as a reason not to antibody test? Surely the more we test, examine antibody levels and follow up with rates of infection, the more informed we are and that can only be a good thing?

This is a great example of trust the science, not always the scientists. 
The science is there to test antibody levels and rates of infection. That scientists don't want to do this or are not being funded to do this more accurately makes one wonder.


----------



## £54etgfb6

O2.0 said:


> For everything you've said here, the exact same thing can be said of vaccines.
> But we don't use the not knowing with 100% accuracy and surety as a reason to not vaccinate.
> Why then does this argument only apply as a reason not to antibody test? Surely the more we test, examine antibody levels and follow up with rates of infection, the more informed we are and that can only be a good thing?
> 
> This is a great example of trust the science, not always the scientists.
> The science is there to test antibody levels and rates of infection. That scientists don't want to do this or are not being funded to do this more accurately makes one wonder.


Vaccines in general raise antibody levels but no you're right they don't raise them for everyone and even those people that they do sometimes there is a very rapid decline in antibody levels that provides little protection at all. However, in general they do work and this has been proven over decades. Antibody tests work as in they show a level of the antibodies an individual currently has but for the reasons I listed this has no relevance or reliability in deciding whether someone should be recommended a booster vaccine or whether they have a sufficient level of antibodies to give them protection.

We could test antibody levels and then follow up those individuals and monitor whether they became reinfected and if so, how serious their symptoms were. Researches are doing this with covid currently, but to pool together enough data to create an average (that is still not all-encompassing) will take a long time from now and still, as I mentioned previously, not all of these antibodies will even be useful at neutralising coronavirus particles. The science is there, but in the context of covid it's unreliable and would involve a health professional purely guessing what level they deem sufficient enough for that individual.

An antibody titre for covid will eventually be created but until it is we have no scale to begin judging what level of antibodies we can _assume_ gives good enough protection. Without robust data behind us, we cannot begin to recommend boosters to people based upon their antibody level as it would be a complete hit and miss. We can't hit and miss with people's lives. Until that point, we have to keep increasing people's antibody levels through vaccination as we know this works.

Still, those that are recommended a booster are under no obligation to have one. The choice to vaccinate remains with the individual themselves.


----------



## O2.0

bmr10 said:


> An antibody titre for covid will eventually be created but until it is we have no scale to begin judging what level of antibodies we can _assume_ gives good enough protection. Without robust data behind us, we cannot begin to recommend boosters to people based upon their antibody level as it would be a complete hit and miss. We can't hit and miss with people's lives. Until that point, we have to keep increasing people's antibody levels through vaccination as we know this works.


You could use that argument and flip it around. Without robust data, how can we recommend boosters at all, especially given that worldwide, we're still struggling to get even a first dose out.

This is from the PEW Charitable trust (emphasis and bold mine):
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/resear...ody-tests-wont-tell-you-what-you-want-to-know

_"In general, the more antibodies, the better, Wells said. *But even with a low level of antibodies months after exposure or receiving a vaccine, the body can mount a stout defense against the virus* by generating new antibodies in response to a fresh infection. "There is more to your immune response than antibody levels," said Wells."_
But later on, they're using lowered antibody levels as a reason to recommend boosters. After having just said that lower antibody levels doesn't necessarily mean lowered immunity.
_"Maryland has done antibody testing on more than 500 nursing home residents and determined that 50% of them showed declining antibodies over time. *On the basis of those tests*, Republican Gov. Larry Hogan ordered boosters for all older Marylanders living in congregate housing."_

So on the one hand antibody tests don't mean anything. But on the other hand antibody testing is used as a reason to recommend boosters. 
Which one is it? Antibody tests don't mean anything? Then how do we know we need boosters?
Or is it that antibody tests *do* mean something, but only if it suits the get everyone boostered at $20 a pop agenda?

Can you blame me for being skeptical?


----------



## £54etgfb6

O2.0 said:


> You could use that argument and flip it around. Without robust data, how can we recommend boosters at all, especially given that worldwide, we're still struggling to get even a first dose out.


Covid vaccines are based on the three phase trials currently conducted. There is no such studies done for antibody tests on a comparably large scale, or done as elegantly. The covid vaccines are also based on our prior knowledge and evidence of efficacy regarding vaccines. Antibody testing is used for some infections but it is not nearly as widely used, is an approximation, and changes depending on the infection and strain of infection. The amount of evidence is not comparable currently.

For the latter half of your reply I have already answered those questions. I'm not really sure how to explain it in a more understandable way. I would assume the politician quoted ordered boosters for those select people on the basis that if there antibodies had decreased over time post-vaccination, then they were losing the protection the vaccines gave them. However, I'd disagree with his actions for the reasons I've outlined in my replies. Science is all about conflicting opinions, there is no unanimous view. I speak from the point of view of someone in my Honours year of physiology, a republican politician and Dr. Wells are unlikely to agree with me 100%. I'd lean on the side of the "doctors interviewed for this story" (whoever they are) in that as the antibody tests are an approximation at best and a random guessing game at worst (and currently we have no antibody titre so we are nearer worst) it's not a reliable enough method to determine whether vaccination is required.

And I don't blame anyone for being skeptical. Science is in itself, skepticism.


----------



## O2.0

bmr10 said:


> For the latter half of your reply I have already answered those questions. I'm not really sure how to explain it in a more understandable way.


I'm not struggling to understand your answers, my questions are largely rhetorical.



bmr10 said:


> Science is all about conflicting opinions, there is no unanimous view.


No, science is fact based, science is not opinions. Scien_tists _form opinions based on the facts they find, but the science is indeed unanimous. For example it's not a matter of opinion that covid 19 is a virus, that's a fact. Opinions about how to fight it based on what we know of other viruses will differ. 
I too speak from a university level science background


----------



## HarlequinCat

I've had my booster, but I've just read immunity from it will only last 10 weeks. They are already talking about a fourth. Why? If it only lasts a short time what's the point. Especially now omicron is weaker.


----------



## Calvine

SbanR said:


> But then if a country buys more, the cost per dose should drop surely?
> Yet I remember reading an article which said Britain was paying the most per dose of any country (£22 per vial)


 Yes, I'd have thought that more doses bought equals cheaper per dose - SA pay double what EU pays (supposedly). Apparently the shelf life is not wonderful and Nigeria has destroyed a million donated doses which is regrettable.


----------



## Siskin

I was hearing about types of antibodies recently. The vaccinations produce two different types, but actually having the virus produces another type which the vaccines can’t replicate (currently). This antibody is for protection immediately the virus is taken in, where as the other two become active once the virus has taken hold which I guess explains why the vaccinated do get the virus but don’t fall badly ill generally. This means if you have omicron your antibody level is not only boosted, but to a better type much like the protection given when we get a seasonal cold. Up until now no one wanted to have Covid, but with omicron being a milder illness it could be a bonus, and it it is highly likely we will all be infected by omicron as it’s so infectious unless you truly do live under a rock. Of course if you’re not fully vaccinated getting omicron is less likely to be so mild


----------



## O2.0

Yes I've also read that the best protection is a combination of convalescent antibodies from having been infected AND vaccination. So anyone who is both vaccinated and has had an infection is best protected. 


I'll be interested to see 10, 20 years from now, looking back with more knowledge what we did right and what we didn't do very right at all. Will also be interesting to see how much was $$$ driven and how much was public health driven....


----------



## £54etgfb6

O2.0 said:


> I'm not struggling to understand your answers, my questions are largely rhetorical.
> 
> No, science is fact based, science is not opinions. Scien_tists _form opinions based on the facts they find, but the science is indeed unanimous. For example it's not a matter of opinion that covid 19 is a virus, that's a fact. Opinions about how to fight it based on what we know of other viruses will differ.
> I too speak from a university level science background


I do not agree with this interpretation of my post, but to each their own  I said those words in the context of different people having different views on what treatment or testing is best for a patient- something there is always conflicting views on.

If the antibody testing prior to vaccination has already been used in America it may become widespread there, so if that's what you wish for I hope you get the chance to try it out.


----------



## Blackadder

O2.0 said:


> I'll be interested to see 10, 20 years from now, looking back with more knowledge what we did right and what we didn't do very right at all. Will also be interesting to see how much was $$$ driven and how much was public health driven....


You mean like we're now being told that the booster efficacy starts to wane after 10 weeks so a 4th booster might be required? Pfizer & Moderna, happy days!!


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## O2.0

Blackadder said:


> You mean like we're now being told that the booster efficacy starts to wane after 10 weeks


But antibody levels mean nothing


----------



## Blackadder

O2.0 said:


> But antibody levels mean nothing


I know & so do the people advocating what seems like non stop injections! Gotta keep the fear levels up somehow


----------



## MollySmith

Putting this here for those who may find it interesting. My MP has voted against the bill and I've written to Lord John Bird. Some of you may wish to do the same, or you may not but at least you know.
https://yournhsneedsyou.com


----------



## Cleo38

HarlequinCat said:


> I've had my booster, but I've just read immunity from it will only last 10 weeks. They are already talking about a fourth. Why? If it only lasts a short time what's the point. Especially now omicron is weaker.


Admittedly I haven't read that much but this worries me. I was so ill from the initial 2 shots & have booked my booster for 10th Jan No way was I doing it before Christmas as I didn't want to be unwell. I will have the booster I have booked but I am not happy to have one every 10wks especially if I am ill again.


----------



## Boxer123

Cleo38 said:


> Admittedly I haven't read that much but this worries me. I was so ill from the initial 2 shots & have booked my booster for 10th Jan No way was I doing it before Christmas as I didn't want to be unwell. I will have the booster I have booked but I am not happy to have one every 10wks especially if I am ill again.


I'm the same I'm waiting until January as I didn't want to be ill over Xmas. My sister was really ill after hers. I'm used to the flu jab making you a bit iffy the next day but not vomiting and really ill.


----------



## O2.0

Boxer123 said:


> I'm the same I'm waiting until January as I didn't want to be ill over Xmas. My sister was really ill after hers. I'm used to the flu jab making you a bit iffy the next day but not vomiting and really ill.


And there are people who literally can't afford not to work for 2 or 3 days every 10 weeks while they recover from a booster.


----------



## Boxer123

O2.0 said:


> And there are people who literally can't afford not to work for 2 or 3 days every 10 weeks while they recover from a booster.


Exactly I can understand the vulnerable needing boosters but not everyone surely. Every 10 weeks. Considering this version is milder and the vaccines don't seem to be slowing the spread. (Gets time foil hat and hides)


----------



## Siskin

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly I can understand the vulnerable needing boosters but not everyone surely. Every 10 weeks. Considering this version is milder and the vaccines don't seem to be slowing the spread. (Gets time foil hat and hides)


You're quite right, the vaccine isn't stopping the spread along with those that have had a dose of Covid previously, but it is preventing people from becoming seriously ill and ending up in hospital. Those Covid patients in hospital are mainly unvaccinated, but there are those that haven't had all three jabs that are getting quite sick as well.
It's highly likely that everyone will get omicron eventually whether vaccinated or not or having a natural immunity from previous infection. The less antibodies in a persons system the more likely they are to get very ill. Antibodies have been shown to be waning in those that are vaccinated which is why the booster has been offered to everyone in order to protect them from becoming more seriously ill when they get omicron.


----------



## O2.0

Boxer123 said:


> Considering this version is milder and the vaccines don't seem to be slowing the spread.


I think the vaccines are working. Fewer people are getting sick and those who do get sick are having a milder disease or even no symptoms at all. 
Considering that the best protection is both infected and vaccinated, I don't know why people are freaking out about infections in vaccinated people.


----------



## Boxer123

Siskin said:


> You're quite right, the vaccine isn't stopping the spread along with those that have had a dose of Covid previously, but it is preventing people from becoming seriously ill and ending up in hospital. Those Covid patients in hospital are mainly unvaccinated, but there are those that haven't had all three jabs that are getting quite sick as well.
> It's highly likely that everyone will get omicron eventually whether vaccinated or not or having a natural immunity from previous infection. The less antibodies in a persons system the more likely they are to get very ill. Antibodies have been shown to be waning in those that are vaccinated which is why the booster has been offered to everyone in order to protect them from becoming more seriously ill when they get omicron.


Don't get me wrong I'm not against vaccination I'm double jabbed and booked in for a third. I am uncomfortable with a jab every 10 weeks I can't put my finger on why.


----------



## Boxer123

O2.0 said:


> I think the vaccines are working. Fewer people are getting sick and those who do get sick are having a milder disease or even no symptoms at all.
> Considering that the best protection is both infected and vaccinated, I don't know why people are freaking out about infections in vaccinated people.


I suppose it's because many are getting jabbed so they can go about their normal business but we are now talking about further lockdowns. It's just a bit depressing I guess.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm not against vaccination I'm double jabbed and booked in for a third. I am uncomfortable with a jab every 10 weeks I can't put my finger on why.


At present a 4th booster is only being considered. It might never happen and if it does it might only be for the vulnerable ond the elderly.

https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-dose-awaits-ministry-green-light-2021-12-27/


----------



## O2.0

Boxer123 said:


> I suppose it's because many are getting jabbed so they can go about their normal business but we are now talking about further lockdowns. It's just a bit depressing I guess.


Which makes you wonder what's the point of boosters if we're just going to continue restricting people and having more lockdowns.

Harvard University has announced they will do remote classes the first 3 weeks of the spring semester and some other Universities have followed suit. 
One of my children has mandatory testing vaccinated or not every week at his university, and they're strict on masks, the University my other child is at doesn't require testing if you're vaccinated but they're also very strict about masks and who can come in and out of dormitories. Both have had less than 2% infection rate. 
Funnily enough, neither school required covid vaccination in the fall but both kids had to have a meningitis vaccine before being allowed to enroll.


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> At present a 4th booster is only being considered. It might never happen and if it does it might only be for the vulnerable ond the elderly.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-dose-awaits-ministry-green-light-2021-12-27/


I know but that's what they said about the booster then they changed their mind because of Omicron. I suppose the situation is ever changing.


----------



## Boxer123

O2.0 said:


> Which makes you wonder what's the point of boosters if we're just going to continue restricting people and having more lockdowns.
> 
> Harvard University has announced they will do remote classes the first 3 weeks of the spring semester and some other Universities have followed suit.
> One of my children has mandatory testing vaccinated or not every week at his university, and they're strict on masks, the University my other child is at doesn't require testing if you're vaccinated but they're also very strict about masks and who can come in and out of dormitories. Both have had less than 2% infection rate.
> Funnily enough, neither school required covid vaccination in the fall but both kids had to have a meningitis vaccine before being allowed to enroll.


For me there is also the moral question of whilst we are boosting away some countries haven't even had one.

What is the situation like in America we have a lot of cases and it's causing high staff absences so causing issues in the NHS.


----------



## O2.0

Boxer123 said:


> What is the situation like in America we have a lot of cases and it's causing high staff absences so causing issues in the NHS.


It's hard to say because it really depends on where in America you are. 
We live in a very rural area and covid is not a big concern really. Cases are not high at all and hospitals are not overwhelmed at all. But even in bigger cities I don't think hospitals are crowded with covid cases. 
Of course the other thing is that healthcare here is not free so people don't go to the doctor as readily as you guys tend to in the UK.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> I know but that's what they said about the booster then they changed their mind because of Omicron. I suppose the situation is ever changing.


I can't speak for the UK but I had my 3rd booster jab in August long before Omicron was even thought of.


----------



## Siskin

I understand that some parts of the US are against the vaccine and won’t have it, but that’s only what I’ve heard, however this is happening in many countries.

African countries have one of the lowest vaccination rates. AZ sent lots of vaccine to various countries there earlier this year, but Macrons badly made comments about AZ vaccine caused a number of African countries, particularly the French speaking ones, refuse to have it even when Macron retracted (sort of) his earlier statements. The other available vaccines like Pfizer have the issue of transport due to it having to be kept so cold and is also a lot more expensive.
It’s not totally known how many Africans have had Covid in the previous waves as testing isn't done so much and record keeping poor.


----------



## JANICE199

Siskin said:


> You're quite right, the vaccine isn't stopping the spread along with those that have had a dose of Covid previously, but it is preventing people from becoming seriously ill and ending up in hospital. Those Covid patients in hospital are mainly unvaccinated, but there are those that haven't had all three jabs that are getting quite sick as well.
> It's highly likely that everyone will get omicron eventually whether vaccinated or not or having a natural immunity from previous infection. The less antibodies in a persons system the more likely they are to get very ill.* Antibodies have been shown to be waning in those that are vaccinated which is why the booster has been offered to everyone in order to protect them from becoming more seriously ill when they get omicron*.


*So they say. I'm sorry but i just don't buy it. The body is a great protector IMO. I'm still not convinced all these vaccines are the way forward.*


----------



## Boggins

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly I can understand the vulnerable needing boosters but not everyone surely. Every 10 weeks. Considering this version is milder and the vaccines don't seem to be slowing the spread. (Gets time foil hat and hides)


The other variants are still around. Omicron may be less aggressive in making you ill but the others are still just as bad.
My wife is a manager in the NHS and she has not had any time off fir a long time as she administers the local Covid lines, collatingvthe data and organising the necessary steps to combat it in drs and hospitals etc. What a lot don't realise is the planning for more temporary wards, some in tents in hospital car parks and the extra mortuary space required for the worsening pandemic.
Frightening numbers may have left the news and the problems of the variants being apparently lessened but don't be fooled into not having the boosters, they are keeping numbers of cases down and do lessen the affects of the virus so ease, accept the side effects and keep getting jabbed: it 8s because of this that numbers becoming seriously ill are reduced from what they could have been.


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> I can't speak for the UK but I had my 3rd booster jab in August long before Omicron was even thought of.


In the U.K. they were doing the vulnerable I'm under 40 and only recently had the second so wasn't expecting a booster they reduced the age and rolled out to all with the arrival of omicron.

TBF i worry about everything so it stands to reason I'll worry about the booster.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> In the U.K. they were doing the vulnerable I'm under 40 and only recently had the second so wasn't expecting a booster they reduced the age and rolled out to all with the arrival of omicron.
> 
> TBF i worry about everything so it stands to reason I'll worry about the booster.


Here the 3rd jab has been offered to everyone who wanted it since the middle of October. To date, a third of the population has already had the booster.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm not against vaccination I'm double jabbed and booked in for a third. I am uncomfortable with a jab every 10 weeks I can't put my finger on why.


Me too.

I'm vaccinated and boostered and have no disrespect to those who worked on them, but surely the way forward is measures in place alongside the vaccines. As far as I can tell Boris will face a rebellion in the Tory party if he brings in measures, there are sufficient rumours in the media to say that he would not be supported so he's in the position of losing what's left of his political career either way. For once I feel a tiny (you'll need a telescope to see it) crumb of sympathy for him. And we've no idea what this vaccine will do long term to us.

The Royal Institution Christmas Lecture with England's Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jonathan Van-Tam should be interesting.
https://www.rigb.org/christmas-lectures/2021-going-viral-how-covid-changed-science-forever


----------



## MollySmith

Boggins said:


> The other variants are still around. Omicron may be less aggressive in making you ill but the others are still just as bad.
> My wife is a manager in the NHS and she has not had any time off fir a long time as she administers the local Covid lines, collatingvthe data and organising the necessary steps to combat it in drs and hospitals etc. What a lot don't realise is the planning for more temporary wards, some in tents in hospital car parks and the extra mortuary space required for the worsening pandemic.
> Frightening numbers may have left the news and the problems of the variants being apparently lessened but don't be fooled into not having the boosters, they are keeping numbers of cases down and do lessen the affects of the virus so ease, accept the side effects and keep getting jabbed: it 8s because of this that numbers becoming seriously ill are reduced from what they could have been.


Please thank your wife for all she's does and for you for supporting her too. I can't imagine how tough it has been.

I maybe naive but I assume that having restrictions or protective measures lawfully in place goes alongside the vaccine so that the cases don't rise in the first place. I am off the mindset that we don't need to be told, I've never stopped taking precautions and haven't been to a pub since Feb 2020 but there are many who think they and the amazing NHS are invincible.


----------



## HarlequinCat

I don't think they think they are invincible, or at least not all. I have been to a pub once since this all started, but I get why people meet at pubs or go to Christmas parties etc. There needs to be a certain amount of normality. Plus think of the people who would loose their jobs and livelyhoods if no one went to the pub, or the shops, or a cafe. Let the ones who feel happy to do that, do it. If it worries you, keep away from people you know who do.

Things like lockdown would be far too extreme at the moment. Masks are being worn by most, at least in my area. Hand gel is widely provided, as are wipes etc. I don't see what more could be done. It is cold and flu season. Omicron is much milder and is overtaking delta as the main variant, and I think that is good news, its a step in the right direction


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> I don't think they think they are invincible, or at least not all. I have been to a pub once since this all started, but I get why people meet at pubs or go to Christmas parties etc. There needs to be a certain amount of normality. Plus think of the people who would loose their jobs and livelyhoods if no one went to the pub, or the shops, or a cafe. Let the ones who feel happy to do that, do it. If it worries you, keep away from people you know who do.
> 
> Things like lockdown would be far too extreme at the moment. Masks are being worn by most, at least in my area. Hand gel is widely provided, as are wipes etc. I don't see what more could be done. It is cold and flu season. Omicron is much milder and is overtaking delta as the main variant, and I think that is good news, its a step in the right direction


I do see your point, but having friends who own a pub, they rather wish measures had been in place from the start to avoid long term loss of trade, closure due to staff illness, one death and simply no plan. Even keeping table service would have allowed them to plan, right now 700 meals cancelled and scant help. The package offered barely scratches the surface.

people are staying away as they are uncertain of everyone else. Btw I said measures not lockdown for clarity, I agree that's too much for the business trade to take as a business owner.


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> I do see your point, but having friends who own a pub, they rather wish measures had been in place from the start to avoid long term loss of trade, closure due to staff illness, one death and simply no plan. Even keeping table service would have allowed them to plan, right now 700 meals cancelled and scant help. The package offered barely scratches the surface.
> 
> people are staying away as they are uncertain of everyone else. Btw I said measures not lockdown for clarity, I agree that's too much for the business trade to take as a business owner.


What measures would they be? If your pub owner wanted surely he could put his own measures in place. Such as table service etc. 700 meals were probably cancelled because of the alarmist way the government handled the news of omicron, rather than listening to South Africa who said the effects were much milder. Was the death before or after vaccinations?

Oh I know, you didn't mention lockdown, but a lot have that's why I mentioned it. It was partly in response to what you said but I didn't quote you directly because it was a more general observation


----------



## Cleo38

HarlequinCat said:


> What measures would they be? If your pub owner wanted surely he could put his own measures in place. Such as table service etc. 700 meals were probably cancelled because of the alarmist way the government handled the news of omicron, rather than listening to South Africa who said the effects were much milder. Was the death before or after vaccinations?
> 
> Oh I know, you didn't mention lockdown, but a lot have that's why I mentioned it. It was partly in response to what you said but I didn't quote you directly because it was a more general observation


The pub I go to has implemented this throughout the pandemic & it works well. They are definitely quieter which is such a shame as the food & service is fantastic.

I sort of feel obligated to go to the pub atm to help out small businesses .... well, that's my excuse anyway!


----------



## Lurcherlad

We went to the cafe/pub we often use (and did so all through Lockdown via takeaway) this lunchtime, and it was mobbed inside.

I popped in briefly to order takeaway and waited outside in the fresh air. 

It felt far too crowded and stuffy to hang around inside for any time at all tbh.

I want to continue to give my custom but without high risk to health.

We sat in the car to eat and drink… the weather was not conducive to alfresco dining today but inside was a big fat no no for us.


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> What measures would they be? If your pub owner wanted surely he could put his own measures in place. Such as table service etc. 700 meals were probably cancelled because of the alarmist way the government handled the news of omicron, rather than listening to South Africa who said the effects were much milder. Was the death before or after vaccinations?
> 
> Oh I know, you didn't mention lockdown, but a lot have that's why I mentioned it. It was partly in response to what you said but I didn't quote you directly because it was a more general observation


Unfortunately there isn't any government advice to back up measures and if he offers table service but down the road the other twenty pubs in the city* don't (and there isn't any extra help to employ the staff to do the table service) people go elsewhere or complain very loudly and not very politely. Even a request to wear a mask currently not advised by the government is often met with objection. And none of this is unique to his pub. It's a story being reported by CAMRA across the country. I imagine it varies from location to location and across the country but that's his story and it's echoed by others in our city. He can't, like many afford to lose the custom though as a freehouse as more flexibility (though more risk), others tied by breweries are less fortunate and have less choice. @mrs phas mentioned her son on another thread who is working all hours in a pub. (I'm sure it's you Mrs P apologies if I've got that wrong!)

One only has to look at the figures to know the current approach isn't working but there has to be a halfway point so we do avoid lockdown. That could be as simple as going back to table service for all, masks in hospitality so it's a level playing field. Anyway I've recorded Jonathan Van Tamm as the programme information says he discusses public health measures. I'm interested to find out what he says.


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> Unfortunately there isn't any government advice to back up measures and if he offers table service but down the road the other twenty pubs in the city* don't (and there isn't any extra help to employ the staff to do the table service) people go elsewhere or complain very loudly and not very politely. Even a request to wear a mask currently not advised by the government is often met with objection. And none of this is unique to his pub. It's a story being reported by CAMRA across the country. I imagine it varies from location to location and across the country but that's his story and it's echoed by others in our city. He can't, like many afford to lose the custom though as a freehouse as more flexibility (though more risk), others tied by breweries are less fortunate and have less choice. @mrs phas mentioned her son on another thread who is working all hours in a pub. (I'm sure it's you Mrs P apologies if I've got that wrong!)
> 
> One only has to look at the figures to know the current approach isn't working but there has to be a halfway point so we do avoid lockdown. That could be as simple as going back to table service for all, masks in hospitality so it's a level playing field. Anyway I've recorded Jonathan Van Tamm as the programme information says he discusses public health measures. I'm interested to find out what he says.


I suppose it depends on the clientele tho. The pubs I go to round here dont seem to have many objections from people or have needed to take on extra staff.
They seem to have implemented their own rules & one has never dropped mask wearing (when entering) despite guidelines changing.

Am going out a few times in the coming week & hope the pubs are busy despite the challenges they are facing.


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> Unfortunately there isn't any government advice to back up measures and if he offers table service but down the road the other twenty pubs in the city* don't (and there isn't any extra help to employ the staff to do the table service) people go elsewhere or complain very loudly and not very politely. Even a request to wear a mask currently not advised by the government is often met with objection. And none of this is unique to his pub. It's a story being reported by CAMRA across the country. I imagine it varies from location to location and across the country but that's his story and it's echoed by others in our city. He can't, like many afford to lose the custom though as a freehouse as more flexibility (though more risk), others tied by breweries are less fortunate and have less choice. @mrs phas mentioned her son on another thread who is working all hours in a pub. (I'm sure it's you Mrs P apologies if I've got that wrong!)
> 
> One only has to look at the figures to know the current approach isn't working but there has to be a halfway point so we do avoid lockdown. That could be as simple as going back to table service for all, masks in hospitality so it's a level playing field. Anyway I've recorded Jonathan Van Tamm as the programme information says he discusses public health measures. I'm interested to find out what he says.


At least he has work to go to at the moment . What is the halfway point then? Even with table service, people are still breathing in confined spaces together. I know people who have caught it while sat at a pub drinking and eating with friends, or wearing masks sat at a slimming world meeting even. Boris has suggested working from home where you can. 
From the figures, many people have tested positive but hospitalizations etc are way below what they were. Is that not encouraging? 
Wales and Scotland have stricter measures but still have a very high infection rate.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> @mrs phas mentioned her son on another thread who is working all hours in a pub. (I'm sure it's you Mrs P apologies if I've got that wrong!)


He worked 80hrs in the week upto christmas day, then was back in at 7am boxing day 
All the run up to christmas and until Monday was spoiled due to waiting to see if Boris would follow Sturgeon et al in bringing in restrictions from boxing day 
They are running a skeleton crew as it is, some days just him and chef, but had Boris made table service mandatory, for drink (they already do table service only for food) he just hasnt the staff, nor permission, from on high, to employ more.
Yes hard work is part of the work, but his work life balance is so askew, it's beyond belief 
Outside of the NHS and emergency services, hospitality has been hit the hardest from day one, even tattooists opened before hospitality, and let's face it, a tattooist is a more intimate situation than serving a beer


----------



## ForestWomble

HarlequinCat said:


> At least he has work to go to at the moment . What is the halfway point then? Even with table service, people are still breathing in confined spaces together. I know people who have caught it while sat at a pub drinking and eating with friends, or wearing masks sat at a slimming world meeting even. Boris has suggested working from home where you can.
> From the figures, many people have tested positive but hospitalizations etc are way below what they were. Is that not encouraging?
> Wales and Scotland have stricter measures but still have a very high infection rate.


What I understand is it's not just how many patients are coming in with Covid, but also if lots of people are catching it and need time off, that in itself causes issues for, not only the NHS, but everything as a whole.
Just seeing how many are in hospital is only looking at a tiny amount of the whole picture.
If we don't have the nurses, doctors, OTs, physios, cleaning staff, kitchen staff etc etc because they are off with covid, that's just as damaging (maybe more so?) as if ICU were full of covid patients.


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> At least he has work to go to at the moment . What is the halfway point then? Even with table service, people are still breathing in confined spaces together. I know people who have caught it while sat at a pub drinking and eating with friends, or wearing masks sat at a slimming world meeting even. Boris has suggested working from home where you can.
> From the figures, many people have tested positive but hospitalizations etc are way below what they were. Is that not encouraging?
> Wales and Scotland have stricter measures but still have a very high infection rate.


it's his livelihood and the house comes with the place so hardly any choice. It's about keeping the cases low because business is suffering. I've got client books waiting to be printed because they have no staff well enough so consequently bills aren't being paid (mine or theirs), football matches cancelled as players are sick so no income there. And back to my landlord friend, barely any staff to open a pub. If one hasn't got sick pay, it can lead to job loss and or poverty. It's wide reaching. I've seen it at the food bank I volunteered for and with Big Issue vendors. Measures - I don't know what they might be, that's the science and medicine and government who need to unite to say what those are. But it's not working as it is now.

I'm pleased you are encouraged by the figures I'm much less so. It's causing a strain on supply chains, income, staff…. And yes I'm sure the stock reply is well that's a result of lockdown and won't measures make it worse etc. I get that. I've no idea.

We agree to disagree as many do when it comes to Covid. I can only share what I know as a business owner and the people I know, as do you. We all have different views and I'm aware I'm very cynical about this government.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> He worked 80hrs in the week upto christmas day, then was back in at 7am boxing day
> All the run up to christmas and until Monday was spoiled due to waiting to see if Boris would follow Sturgeon et al in bringing in restrictions from boxing day
> They are running a skeleton crew as it is, some days just him and chef, but had Boris made table service mandatory, for drink (they already do table service only for food) he just hasnt the staff, nor permission, from on high, to employ more.
> Yes hard work is part of the work, but his work life balance is so askew, it's beyond belief
> Outside of the NHS and emergency services, hospitality has been hit the hardest from day one, even tattooists opened before hospitality, and let's face it, a tattooist is a more intimate situation than serving a beer


I'm so sorry. And then there's mental health too. That really can't be overlooked.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

ForestWomble said:


> What I understand is it's not just how many patients are coming in with Covid, but also if lots of people are catching it and need time off, that in itself causes issues for, not only the NHS, but everything as a whole.
> Just seeing how many are in hospital is only looking at a tiny amount of the whole picture.
> If we don't have the nurses, doctors, OTs, physios, cleaning staff, kitchen staff etc etc because they are off with covid, that's just as damaging (maybe more so?) as if ICU were full of covid patients.


Lots of people are stuck at home having to self isolate but feel perfectly fine, if the prediction that virtually everyone, unless living under a rock, is going to come into contact with Omicron then requiring people to isolate seems pointless. I understand at the moment there are still people getting their boosters but once it becomes clear that everyone who wants a booster has had one the isolation rule needs to be removed.


----------



## Jesthar

3dogs2cats said:


> Lots of people are stuck at home having to self isolate but feel perfectly fine, if the prediction that virtually everyone, unless living under a rock, is going to come into contact with Omicron then requiring people to isolate seems pointless. I understand at the moment there are still people getting their boosters but once it becomes clear that everyone who wants a booster has had one the isolation rule needs to be removed.


The point of isolation is to try to keep the spread limited to a rate slow enough that the NHS isn't overwhelmed at any point. Omnicronmay be relatively mild in most people but it can still be bad, and the other more severe strains are still out there. The husband of someone I know has been taken to ICU today.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> I'm so sorry. And then there's mental health too. That really can't be overlooked.


Thank you x 
we had them to us, finally, today for a mum's Christmas dinner 
Things were so tense it felt like walking on eggshells, just the fact his brother, my youngest, carved some meat for his stepchild, rather than allow him to do it, almost caused a row, 
so yes 
his mental health is shot right now,
and
I feel for his partner, even if I'm not keen on her
we're all trying to give him leeway, as, just two months ago, he was only the bar/cellar man, (after his previous bar/doorman place of work went into post lockdown liquidation) and was catapulted, into pub manager post, when the previous company pulled out, and everyone 'above him' left 
But 
It's blooming hard, even when you love them

3 members of staff, today, have phoned in with positive tests, so that 3 down for NYE, at least, so all his balls are in the air again

He desperately needs some down time, but when is anyone's guess

*Sorry for rattling on, but I can't talk about this to anyone/where else, so feel to accuse me of whinging and pass by


----------



## Psygon

MollySmith said:


> As far as I can tell Boris will face a rebellion in the Tory party if he brings in measures, there are sufficient rumours in the media to say that he would not be supported so he's in the position of losing what's left of his political career either way. For once I feel a tiny (you'll need a telescope to see it) crumb of sympathy for him. And we've no idea what this vaccine will do long term to us.


I see your point about feeling a bit of sympathy for him, but what I keep wondering is are no extra measures being brought in because we genuinely don't need any or because he doesn't want his political career to be over.

I really hope it's the former (and so far the data seems to be saying that), but a little part of me keeps wondering about that political career…

Guess time will tell.


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> I see your point about feeling a bit of sympathy for him, but what I keep wondering is are no extra measures being brought in because we genuinely don't need any or because he doesn't want his political career to be over.
> 
> I really hope it's the former (and so far the data seems to be saying that), but a little part of me keeps wondering about that political career…
> 
> Guess time will tell.


I agree, it's certainly the rumours gong around the press as per usual. The 1922 committee do not support more restrictions.

I'm trying to see the good in people. On an 'at home' retreat at the moment and really shouldn't be on PF - I ought be in rural Shropshire but the pandemic means our Buddhist centre has to run on Zoom again. A very small issue compared to others. Anyway I tried think kindly of Boris in my morning meditation.... I like to give myself a challenge.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> Thank you x
> we had them to us, finally, today for a mum's Christmas dinner
> Things were so tense it felt like walking on eggshells, just the fact his brother, my youngest, carved some meat for his stepchild, rather than allow him to do it, almost caused a row,
> so yes
> his mental health is shot right now,
> and
> I feel for his partner, even if I'm not keen on her
> we're all trying to give him leeway, as, just two months ago, he was only the bar/cellar man, (after his previous bar/doorman place of work went into post lockdown liquidation) and was catapulted, into pub manager post, when the previous company pulled out, and everyone 'above him' left
> But
> It's blooming hard, even when you love them
> 
> 3 members of staff, today, have phoned in with positive tests, so that 3 down for NYE, at least, so all his balls are in the air again
> 
> He desperately needs some down time, but when is anyone's guess
> 
> *Sorry for rattling on, but I can't talk about this to anyone/where else, so feel to accuse me of whinging and pass by


Goodness me, you use this space. crikey people have come here to talk about all sorts of things. We can learn from this.

On the retreat I'm taking, we're exploring the primary experience - what we know to be true (the facts and the real first hand experiences). And how the secondary stuff (other people's assumptions, judgements, social media, advertising, social expectations) can alter what we know to be true and rattle us as others seek to tell us because they have expectations.

I'm reading your post and your first hand account of your son and it is another example how tough it is. It's not just your son, it's his whole family. I just wish none of you had to be in the position and he must be exhausted.

We've been thrown into a mess this week as a relative is intent on travelling from Singapore with three under 10 year olds and husband. Under current laws, we believe that she can do this.. They have to quarantine for 10 days because her children are not vaccinated, they're only just second vaxed themselves. In practice however it's a logistically and morally dubious in my opinion. She's a huge fan of Boris (still) and thinks it's all fine - so her political persuasion has some bearing here (her secondary experience I suppose!) She is expecting to do a road trip around the UK to see friends and family. She's now kicking up as she wants to see us all and we're all saying no, too risky as our primary experiences tell us it's not worth the risk! I haven't seen my brother since Feb 2020 as my sister in law is a nurse. We've tried but we've had illness and we've had to keep my parents and my sister in law's mum safe. My other sister in law has non-curative cancer so there's not a chance I'm seeing my relative from Singapore. The other issue of course is flight cancellations due to lack of staff through Covid infections. I'm rather hoping that will stop her coming over, but if not there's every chance they maybe stuck here. *sigh*


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> Goodness me, you use this space. crikey people have come here to talk about all sorts of things. We can learn from this.
> 
> On the retreat I'm taking, we're exploring the primary experience - what we know to be true (the facts and the real first hand experiences). And how the secondary stuff (other people's assumptions, judgements, social media, advertising, social expectations) can alter what we know to be true and rattle us as others seek to tell us because they have expectations.
> 
> I'm reading your post and your first hand account of your son and it is another example how tough it is. It's not just your son, it's his whole family. I just wish none of you had to be in the position and he must be exhausted.
> 
> We've been thrown into a mess this week as a relative is intent on travelling from Singapore with three under 10 year olds and husband. Under current laws, we believe that she can do this.. They have to quarantine for 10 days because her children are not vaccinated, they're only just second vaxed themselves. In practice however it's a logistically and morally dubious in my opinion. She's a huge fan of Boris (still) and thinks it's all fine - so her political persuasion has some bearing here (her secondary experience I suppose!) She is expecting to do a road trip around the UK to see friends and family. She's now kicking up as she wants to see us all and we're all saying no, too risky as our primary experiences tell us it's not worth the risk! I haven't seen my brother since Feb 2020 as my sister in law is a nurse. We've tried but we've had illness and we've had to keep my parents and my sister in law's mum safe. My other sister in law has non-curative cancer so there's not a chance I'm seeing my relative from Singapore. The other issue of course is flight cancellations due to lack of staff through Covid infections. I'm rather hoping that will stop her coming over, but if not there's every chance they maybe stuck here. *sigh*


To be honest I can see why she wants to! It must be hard not being in the same country and visiting, though to book the trip without getting everyone's agreement is on the selfish side! And a waste of money and plane ride if no one wants to see her anyway.

Everyone has their own struggles. I have health anxiety so at the beginning of the pandemic I think I was OTT with keeping away from everyone. Even outside I was leaving over 2m between me and a stranger. I'm still cautious, but it's tiring being worried all the time.
Everyone needs to make their own decisions, I am careful, but I can understand why others are less so. I think a lot of people are fed up of the government telling them to do one thing, then thinking it doesn't apply to themselves. I think after 3 yrs of this people are just fatigued, and fed up of it all. There is light at the end of the tunnel though


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> To be honest I can see why she wants to! It must be hard not being in the same country and visiting, though to book the trip without getting everyone's agreement is on the selfish side! And a waste of money and plane ride if no one wants to see her anyway.
> 
> Everyone has their own struggles. I have health anxiety so at the beginning of the pandemic I think I was OTT with keeping away from everyone. Even outside I was leaving over 2m between me and a stranger. I'm still cautious, but it's tiring being worried all the time.
> I only just saw my sister this month after not seeing her since Sept 2019. I still haven't seen my mum especially now as I have had to get a job dealing with so many public, during the sales there are lots more people where I work. And I don't want to risk taking anything up to mum because she is housebound and unable to get a booster. She takes medication that suppresses her immune system too.
> Everyone needs to make their own decisions, I am careful, but I can understand why others are less so. I think a lot of people are fed up of the government telling them to do one thing, then thinking it doesn't apply to themselves. I think after 3 yrs of this people are just fatigued, and fed up of it all. There is light at the end of the tunnel though


Yes, it's a bit mad (she has a £1m house off Greenwich Park so I expect she can afford to do it but still... !). I think she's hoping we'll all be so thrilled we'll change our minds.

I'm so sorry, you've really had it tough haven't you? It must be awful not to see your mum. Let's hope that it does end soon, I agree we're all fed up, tired and jaded by it all. Take good care of yourself.


----------



## ForestWomble

3dogs2cats said:


> Lots of people are stuck at home having to self isolate but feel perfectly fine, if the prediction that virtually everyone, unless living under a rock, is going to come into contact with Omicron then requiring people to isolate seems pointless. I understand at the moment there are still people getting their boosters but once it becomes clear that everyone who wants a booster has had one * the isolation rule needs to be removed*.


Gosh I hope it doesn't!
We need the isolation rule to try to keep cases down and to protect those who can't have the jabs.

It's not good for business, carers, NHS etc at the moment, but we need more restrictions to protect everyone, slow the spread, which in turn means less people needing to be off.

What's happening right now isn't working and I think not doing anything, or removing the isolation rule is madness!


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just come out of Hospital and I over heard a few of the staff saying they have had got close three wards down because of staff shortages, they have asked for Army help and been turned down.


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> Every 10 weeks.


Totally agree: I don't see the point if they are not working and I'm not having more than the original two which I have had. I am being bombarded with texts from NHS and my GP but I just delete them. But on the plus side, it's making the pharma companies as rich as Croesus.


----------



## Cleo38

HarlequinCat said:


> *Everyone has their own struggles*. I have health anxiety so at the beginning of the pandemic I think I was OTT with keeping away from everyone. Even outside I was leaving over 2m between me and a stranger. I'm still cautious, but it's tiring being worried all the time.
> *Everyone needs to make their own decisions*, I am careful, but I can understand why others are less so. I think a lot of people are fed up of the government telling them to do one thing, then thinking it doesn't apply to themselves. I think after 3 yrs of this people are just fatigued, and fed up of it all. There is light at the end of the tunnel though


Completely this! There are so many considerations. People & their situations are so complex so nothing is B&W IMO. I am careful atm but am just getting on with things. I work from home so am lucky that I am not in a busy office anymore, I live on my own so my contact is very limited.

As I am healthy & have limited contact I choose to go out &socialise occasionally & have friends round. Some people may not be comfortable doing this, one of my friends is in the vulnerable group so I take guidance from her of what she feels happy doing.

Edited to add: I agree @Calvine . I have had so many NHS texts lately so have blocked the sender. i am still considering whether to go for my booster. If they really are only valid for 10wks then it seems pointless tbh as I will not be having one that often.


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> requiring people to isolate seems pointless.


Yes, I rather think it's better to let people get it instead of this rubbish about non-stop testing and vaccinations (and that's on top of the regular annual flu jab that many people have). I remember when I was a child, if you were lucky you would be invited to a ''measles party'' so that you would hopefully not get it when older with more serious side effects like pneumonia and bronchitis. I imagine there were possibly chicken pox parties too, though I managed to get chicken pox without going to one.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> am being bombarded with texts from NHS and my GP but I just delete them. But on the plus side, it's making the pharma companies as rich as Croesus.


I know I'm feed up with Texts saying I need a booster NO I don't, I've had one, leave me alone.:Banghead


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news...ynes-theatre-during-panto-performance-3509899


Parents have taken to social media to complain about anti vax demonstrators who 'forced their way in' to a pantomime performance at MK Theatre this afternoon.

They say the protesters created a disturbance and scared children who had gone to watch the Jack and the Beanstalk show as a festive treat.

The disruption came shortly after an anti vax mob, believed to be from the same group, stormed into the Covid test centre at CMK, carrying placards and chanting "shame on you'.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news...ynes-theatre-during-panto-performance-3509899
> 
> 
> Parents have taken to social media to complain about anti vax demonstrators who 'forced their way in' to a pantomime performance at MK Theatre this afternoon.
> 
> They say the protesters created a disturbance and scared children who had gone to watch the Jack and the Beanstalk show as a festive treat.
> 
> The disruption came shortly after an anti vax mob, believed to be from the same group, stormed into the Covid test centre at CMK, carrying placards and chanting "shame on you'.


How awful and frightening. And cowardly, if they wanted to make a point then they could have staged a peaceful protest at the OU where the PM was.


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news...ynes-theatre-during-panto-performance-3509899
> 
> 
> Parents have taken to social media to complain about anti vax demonstrators who 'forced their way in' to a pantomime performance at MK Theatre this afternoon.
> 
> They say the protesters created a disturbance and scared children who had gone to watch the Jack and the Beanstalk show as a festive treat.
> 
> The disruption came shortly after an anti vax mob, believed to be from the same group, stormed into the Covid test centre at CMK, carrying placards and chanting "shame on you'.


They stole equipment and wrecked the testing site as well.

Not often I find myself agreeing with a Tory MP but I think Ben Everitt said it right on Twitter:

"what a bunch of d1ck heads".

All of this drama because Boris was in the city.


----------



## kimthecat

It seems the same protesters stormed a covid test site as well . piers corbyn was there,

https://news.topnotch.works/news/ar...b-storm-Covid-testing-site-Milton-Keynes.html

ETA Sorry, @stuaz already posted


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> It seems the same protesters stormed a covid test site as well . piers corbyn was there,
> 
> https://news.topnotch.works/news/ar...b-storm-Covid-testing-site-Milton-Keynes.html
> 
> ETA Sorry, @stuaz already posted


Apparantly they thought the testing site was a vaccination centre. You know its very confusing with all the large yellow signs they put up everywhere saying "Vaccination Centre this way" or "Testing Centre this way" 

Feel sorry for the innocent people caught up in there rubbish.


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> Apparantly they thought the testing site was a vaccination centre. You know its very confusing with all the large yellow signs they put up everywhere saying "Vaccination Centre this way" or "Testing Centre this way"
> 
> Feel sorry for the innocent people caught up in there rubbish.


:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

Someone is worried even if BJ isn't....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59823652


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Someone is worried even if BJ isn't....
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59823652


They are going to be small hubs for those needing minimal care, like those about to be discharged. It's something that should/could have been put in place every winter to for the last 20 or so years to take the strain off the NHS, but they couldn't get the funding until Covid!


----------



## StormyThai

-pops head in-

So how do they plan to staff these "hubs" 
The nightingale farce was a great idea until they realised that staff didn't just appear out of nowhere so it couldn't be used.



-hides back under a rock before being accused of having an ego again-


----------



## £54etgfb6

StormyThai said:


> -pops head in-
> 
> So how do they plan to staff these "hubs"
> The nightingale farce was a great idea until they realised that staff didn't just appear out of nowhere so it couldn't be used.
> 
> -hides back under a rock before being accused of having an ego again-


Sounds like it'll go nowhere or a lot of overseas workers will be required as perhaps the Britain is realising immigrants are essential for our workforce.


----------



## Guest

bmr10 said:


> Covid vaccines are based on the three phase trials currently conducted. There is no such studies done for antibody tests on a comparably large scale, or done as elegantly. The covid vaccines are also based on our prior knowledge and evidence of efficacy regarding vaccines. Antibody testing is used for some infections but it is not nearly as widely used, is an approximation, and changes depending on the infection and strain of infection. The amount of evidence is not comparable currently.
> 
> For the latter half of your reply I have already answered those questions. I'm not really sure how to explain it in a more understandable way. I would assume the politician quoted ordered boosters for those select people on the basis that if there antibodies had decreased over time post-vaccination, then they were losing the protection the vaccines gave them. However, I'd disagree with his actions for the reasons I've outlined in my replies. Science is all about conflicting opinions, there is no unanimous view. I speak from the point of view of someone in my Honours year of physiology, a republican politician and Dr. Wells are unlikely to agree with me 100%. I'd lean on the side of the "doctors interviewed for this story" (whoever they are) in that as the antibody tests are an approximation at best and a random guessing game at worst (and currently we have no antibody titre so we are nearer worst) it's not a reliable enough method to determine whether vaccination is required.
> 
> And I don't blame anyone for being skeptical. Science is in itself, skepticism.


I think I understand what you are saying @bmr10. Scientists opinions and theories can and do change as more information becomes available.
Science changes, as what we know about things changes.


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> Sounds like it'll go nowhere or a lot of overseas workers will be required as perhaps the Britain is realising immigrants are essential for our workforce.


Just proves that stopping Immigration is ruining the country, we need these people what ever the government say.


----------



## O2.0

J. Dawson said:


> I think I understand what you are saying @bmr10. Scientists opinions and theories can and do change as more information becomes available.
> Science changes, as what we know about things changes.


Science as in the method is fact-based and sound. 
Scien_tists_ interpret the facts differently and have different opinions about scientific findings. 
There is also a lot of arrogance among scientists these days, it used to be that the 'secret handshake' among scientists was excessive humility. Statements started with "I could be wrong..." and "as far as the data shows..." no one spoke in absolutes nor scoffed and rolled their eyes when being questioned.

Scientists are human and subject to human failings. We've been told to trust the science but what that really means is trust the scientists who are in favor. Perfect example:
https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-antibody-test-should-i-get-one-booster-vaccine-expert-2021-11

FDA disagrees. Hmmm... Because the FDA has shown itself over the years to be so very immune to financial and political pressures... /sarcasm.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> They are going to be small hubs for those needing minimal care, like those about to be discharged. It's something that should/could have been put in place every winter to for the last 20 or so years to take the strain off the NHS, but they couldn't get the funding until Covid!


And how are they going to Staff them as they are closing wards due to lack of staff, they closed three wards while I was in hospital due to Staff shortages.

Something has to be done, we can't just rely just on jabs and boosters.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> And how are they going to Staff them as they are closing wards due to lack of staff, they closed three wards while I was in hospital due to Staff shortages.
> 
> Something has to be done, we can't just rely just on jabs and boosters.


The UK isn't unique! The rest of Europe is facing exactly the same problem.

Gwylim's breeder is administrator for 53 group dental practices covering a good part of Hungary. Even before Covid they were having difficulty recruiting dental surgeons. When I spoke to him a week ago he told me that they were having to recruit from as far away as Iran and Egypt in order to fill vacant posts.


----------



## Guest

@O2

I think that is basically what I said. What we consider 'facts' sometimes does change with more knowledge. Not all scientists agree (well doh ). 

I am picking up, that you seem to like to argue for the sake of it and I won't engage further.


----------



## Calvine

J. Dawson said:


> I am picking up, that you seem to like to argue for the sake of it


NO! Surely not! You could have fooled me. :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> And how are they going to Staff them as they are closing wards due to lack of staff, they closed three wards while I was in hospital due to Staff shortages.
> 
> Something has to be done, we can't just rely just on jabs and boosters.


Agree, we can't boost our way out of it. However, a record number came over from Calais this year. Assuming many of them want to stay and work here, is there no way some of them can be given training?


----------



## O2.0

Okay that’s me told, message received


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> Agree, we can't boost our way out of it. However, a record number came over from Calais this year. Assuming many of them want to stay and work here, is there no way some of them can be given training?


As in medical training regarding being a doctor or training in any aspect of healthcare staff? You'd have the difficulty of a lot of immigrants coming from places where education is not easily accessible and so they may not be prepared for training to be a nurse, doctor, physicians assistant, etc etc. Language barrier for these roles is a major major obstacle too. I'm not comfortable with pretending I know enough about the barriers surrounding getting immigrants into employment so I won't pretend I know everything but I would like to see a future where working in healthcare was more accessible to everyone.

Additionally, being a doctor in the UK is underpaid, difficult to get into/progress through, expensive, and demanding. Even if someone's heart is in the best place it can be an unappealing future and many people are opting to practice abroad in places like Australia or study to be a physicians assistant/nurse. If there were more specialist training places for doctors and they were paid more I think we would not have as severe a shortage as we do.


----------



## Calvine

bmr10 said:


> As in medical training regarding being a doctor or training in any aspect of healthcare staff? You'd have the difficulty of a lot of immigrants coming from places where education is not easily accessible and so they may not be prepared for training to be a nurse, doctor, physicians assistant, etc etc. Language barrier for these roles is a major major obstacle too. I'm not comfortable with pretending I know enough about the barriers surrounding getting immigrants into employment so I won't pretend I know everything but I would like to see a future where working in healthcare was more accessible to everyone.
> 
> Additionally, being a doctor in the UK is underpaid, difficult to get into/progress through, expensive, and demanding. Even if someone's heart is in the best place it can be an unappealing future and many people are opting to practice abroad in places like Australia or study to be a physicians assistant/nurse. If there were more specialist training places for doctors and they were paid more I think we would not have as severe a shortage as we do.


One doesn't have to be a doctor to work for, and take the load off NHS though. And if they are planning to live and work here, they will be surely be learning English - like the ones who come from the EU to work here - I'd imagine so anyway. And there will be many who already have some knowledge of English surely?


----------



## SusieRainbow

mrs phas said:


> Thank you x
> we had them to us, finally, today for a mum's Christmas dinner
> Things were so tense it felt like walking on eggshells, just the fact his brother, my youngest, carved some meat for his stepchild, rather than allow him to do it, almost caused a row,
> so yes
> his mental health is shot right now,
> and
> I feel for his partner, even if I'm not keen on her
> we're all trying to give him leeway, as, just two months ago, he was only the bar/cellar man, (after his previous bar/doorman place of work went into post lockdown liquidation) and was catapulted, into pub manager post, when the previous company pulled out, and everyone 'above him' left
> But
> It's blooming hard, even when you love them
> 
> 3 members of staff, today, have phoned in with positive tests, so that 3 down for NYE, at least, so all his balls are in the air again
> 
> He desperately needs some down time, but when is anyone's guess
> 
> *Sorry for rattling on, but I can't talk about this to anyone/where else, so feel to accuse me of whinging and pass by


Please don't apologise for off-loading here!
I'm in the middle of a sibling disagreement between my 2, it's caused me a lot of heartache over the holiday. It's _because _you love them that it's hard.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I know not so many people aren't dying but hospitals are still struggling and closing wards and going critical, emergency services struggling, transport cancelling services and *he* does nothing.


----------



## Blackadder

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know not so many people aren't dying but hospitals are still struggling and closing wards and going critical, emergency services struggling, transport cancelling services and *he* does nothing.


I don't think there is anything anybody can do! Look at what the rest of Europe are trying with no success. Basically we can't stop it & with this variant I doubt very much that we can even slow it down.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know not so many people aren't dying but hospitals are still struggling and closing wards and going critical, emergency services struggling, transport cancelling services and *he* does nothing.


*And why would he? He has make a laughing stock of the NHS ( the very people he said, saved him.). He has flaunted just about every rule he set out for us, and NHS staff. But as long as he can get away with it he will. *
*In all my years i have NEVER seen a PM in OUR act so irresponsible and selfish. *


----------



## Boxer123

JANICE199 said:


> *And why would he? He has make a laughing stock of the NHS ( the very people he said, saved him.). He has flaunted just about every rule he set out for us, and NHS staff. But as long as he can get away with it he will. *
> *In all my years i have NEVER seen a PM in OUR act so irresponsible and selfish. *


Wanted to like this twice.


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *And why would he? He has make a laughing stock of the NHS * *( the very people he said, saved him.).* *He has flaunted just about every rule he set out for us, and NHS staff. But as long as he can get away with it he will. *
> *In all my years i have NEVER seen a PM in OUR act so irresponsible and selfish. *


I bet they wondered they they did.


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *And why would he? He has make a laughing stock of the NHS ( the very people he said, saved him.). He has flaunted just about every rule he set out for us, and NHS staff. But as long as he can get away with it he will. *
> *In all my years i have NEVER seen a PM in OUR act so irresponsible and selfish. *


I don't think there is much more they can do in terms of the NHS? In addition to the Conversative manifesto here, there was the £350bn that was on the side of the Brexit Bus. But I would assume that if that money was spent - assuming it existed- one can argue that it was taken up by the pandemic which perhaps science did predict (in the Panorama programme on the vaccine, scientists said they knew it was going to happen, they didn't know how) but no party could have for-seen the scale. It's true to a point but in 2011, the Government did a training exercise based on a lethal flu pandemic. The outcomes were not updated, but they did a repeat exercise in 2017. A 2019 report by the Global Health Security Index rated the U.K. as one of the most secure countries in terms of handling a pandemic but this goes against the study in 2016 commissioned by the NHS that warned then - 6 years ago - that they lacked the ICU capacity to deal with a pandemic. It was ignored apparently according to this from the LSE.

I guess it depends on how one felt the NHS was supported pre-pandemic, if the pandemic is the end of the NHS as we know it and if one thinks the lack of words from No 10 is because of a potential leadership challenge (the 1922 committee said they oppose more restrictions) or if it's all a distraction from the Health and Care Bill that will either save the NHS or go part way to privatising it..!

My sister in law works at Guy's and St Thomas' NHS hospital where the PM was treated and is not allowed to talk about it.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know not so many people aren't dying but hospitals are still struggling and closing wards and going critical, emergency services struggling, transport cancelling services and *he* does nothing.


What do you want him to do? A lot of the staff are off sick.
He pushed through boosters , people having them on Christmas day , the army have been helping them out , they did my sisters at the local hospital . They're building Nightingale hospitals , children back at school wearing masks.

Scotland and Wales have high covid rates as well despite restrictions .


----------



## David C

He spent billions building Nightingale hospitals only to close them all to now say oh let's do it again, ffs we are a complete laughing stock.


----------



## £54etgfb6

kimthecat said:


> Scotland and Wales have high covid rates as well despite restrictions .


I agree with you but I just want to point out that in Scotland majority of the high case load is in rural areas not in the city's. There is a serious disparity between the spread in rural areas vs built up areas, with more spread being found in the former (the opposite of what you'd expect). We have had stricter restrictions than England for the entirety of the pandemic but for some reason they are not adhered to in rural areas. I think there are many reasons behind this but that's another conversation. If the restrictions were adhered to in rural areas Scotland would have much lower cases overall. I would presume this is the same story in Wales as much of it is rural too.


----------



## Jesthar

David C said:


> He spent billions building Nightingale hospitals only to close them all to now say oh let's do it again, ffs we are a complete laughing stock.


They must have known even before they built them we didn't have the staff for them, too...



Blackadder said:


> I don't think there is anything anybody can do! Look at what the rest of Europe are trying with no success. Basically we can't stop it & with this variant I doubt very much that we can even slow it down.


Stop it, no. Slow it down, definitely. And, as usual, it's the simple measures (and enforcing them) that will help the most - social distancing, wearing masks when out in public, hand washing and sanitising, and not treating being vaccinated/boosted as an excuse to stop doing any of the above. A virus can only travel to a new host if there are new hosts to be had. Limit the availablility/proximity of new hosts, and you limit the spread of the virus.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> What do you want him to do? A lot of the staff are off sick.
> He pushed through boosters , people having them on Christmas day , the army have been helping them out , they did my sisters at the local hospital . They're building Nightingale hospitals , children back at school wearing masks.
> 
> Scotland and Wales have high covid rates as well despite restrictions .


Maybe trouble/quibble is that staff are sick from Covid because there are folk who feel they need to be told what to do in the form of restrictions - to wear a mask and be vaccinated etc - stuff most of us (!) here already do. My sister in law is one of two well enough to work in a team of 10. And primary schools are struggling.

To be honest I've totally given up on waiting for Covid advice. I am resigned to the fact that I'll get it at some point and do all I can to survive it - me, my family and my business. I shall wear my mask and all the regular stuff. It feels defeatist put like that


----------



## MollySmith

Then there’s pile of poop. I understand from Twitter that the article goes onto explain how an LFT positive is prized. I am not a subscriber to the Independent so I can’t see the full thing. Unlikely to be with headlines like that!


----------



## Jaf

I know someone who works in in special needs school, in the UK. Because it's a special needs school there are a lot of staff. Some of those staff are not vaccinated and are sent home for 10 days during an outbreak. The vaccinated staff carry on working, just get tested every morning.

System seems broken.


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> Wanted to like this twice.


 Wasn't there a facility at one time where you could give a post a 5-star or A+ or something similar (maybe before the forum was ''upgraded''?


----------



## Calvine

Does anyone know (out of interest) - all these people unable to go to work because of positive tests - bus/tube/train drivers, bin men, NHS staff, and no doubt shortly, teachers and many others: do they have to prove that they have had positive tests? Or is the situation open to abuse by those who simply fancy a few days off?


----------



## JANICE199

MollySmith said:


> I don't think there is much more they can do in terms of the NHS? In addition to the Conversative manifesto here, there was the £350bn that was on the side of the Brexit Bus. But I would assume that if that money was spent - assuming it existed- one can argue that it was taken up by the pandemic which perhaps science did predict (in the Panorama programme on the vaccine, scientists said they knew it was going to happen, they didn't know how) but no party could have for-seen the scale. It's true to a point but in 2011, the Government did a training exercise based on a lethal flu pandemic. The outcomes were not updated, but they did a repeat exercise in 2017. A 2019 report by the Global Health Security Index rated the U.K. as one of the most secure countries in terms of handling a pandemic but this goes against the study in 2016 commissioned by the NHS that warned then - 6 years ago - that they lacked the ICU capacity to deal with a pandemic. It was ignored apparently according to this from the LSE.
> 
> I guess it depends on how one felt the NHS was supported pre-pandemic, if the pandemic is the end of the NHS as we know it and if one thinks the lack of words from No 10 is because of a potential leadership challenge (the 1922 committee said they oppose more restrictions) or if it's all a distraction from the Health and Care Bill that will either save the NHS or go part way to privatising it..!
> 
> My sister in law works at Guy's and St Thomas' NHS hospital where the PM was treated and is not allowed to talk about it.


*Thank you so much for your post, i've found it most interesting. *
*I will add this thought, i do not believe this country doesn't have the money to fully fund the NHS if it wanted to. Also, we need to keep in mind that when we are told how much this pandemic has/is costing the NHS, we are forgetting they talk as if everyone sick person is being treated, ie. cancer patients ect. which we all know they are not.*
*I also think that the NHS can be restored to the great institute that it was. It just needs the right government to do it.*


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> They must have known even before they built them we didn't have the staff for them, too...
> 
> Stop it, no. Slow it down, definitely. And, as usual, it's the simple measures (and enforcing them) that will help the most - social distancing, wearing masks when out in public, hand washing and sanitising, and not treating being vaccinated/boosted as an excuse to stop doing any of the above. A virus can only travel to a new host if there are new hosts to be had. Limit the availablility/proximity of new hosts, and you limit the spread of the virus.


I live in "the rest of Europe" and if the figures are correct the number of new infections in Hungary are decreasing. They've gone down from around 6500 people a day a month ago to about 2500 yesterday.

Hungary began giving a 3rd vaccination at the beginning of August and to date a third of the population has had the booster. It also began vaccinating teens and younger children sooner than its European counterparts, something that's ongoing. We've been told that our hospitals will be able to cope with any increase due to the new varient which at present is affecting some 11% of those infected.

Mask wearing has been mandatory since the beginning of November and it's very rarely you'll see anyone not wearing one even outside. Nobody thinks twice about it any longer and it seems to have become an accepted way of life.

I think the big difference between us and the UK ( and many other EU countries) is that the regulations have always been explained in a clear cut way and over the past two years haven't varied all that much.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Mask wearing has been mandatory since the beginning of November and it's very rarely you'll see anyone not wearing one even outside. Nobody thinks twice about it any longer and it seems to have become an accepted way of life.


That's what we should be doing here, it's very rare to look outside and see someone wearing one in the street. I'm not sure how many are in shops as I haven't been brave enough to go out for about six weeks.


----------



## Lurcherlad

JANICE199 said:


> *Thank you so much for your post, i've found it most interesting. *
> *I will add this thought, i do not believe this country doesn't have the money to fully fund the NHS if it wanted to. Also, we need to keep in mind that when we are told how much this pandemic has/is costing the NHS, we are forgetting they talk as if everyone sick person is being treated, ie. cancer patients ect. which we all know they are not.*
> *I also think that the NHS can be restored to the great institute that it was. It just needs the right government to do it.*


If only….


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *Thank you so much for your post, i've found it most interesting. *
> *I will add this thought, i do not believe this country doesn't have the money to fully fund the NHS if it wanted to. Also, we need to keep in mind that when we are told how much this pandemic has/is costing the NHS, we are forgetting they talk as if everyone sick person is being treated, ie. cancer patients ect. which we all know they are not.*
> *I also think that the NHS can be restored to the great institute that it was.*_* It just needs the right government to do it.*_*[*/QUOTE]
> 
> *And we don't at the moment.[*/QUOTE]


Sorry for the big print


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> the regulations have always been explained in a clear cut way


Whereas here, everyone complains they are confused by Plan This, Level That, Tier The Other. All this talk about Plan B, most people I know still don't know what plan A was.


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *Thank you so much for your post, i've found it most interesting. *
> *I will add this thought, i do not believe this country doesn't have the money to fully fund the NHS if it wanted to. Also, we need to keep in mind that when we are told how much this pandemic has/is costing the NHS, we are forgetting they talk as if everyone sick person is being treated, ie. cancer patients ect. which we all know they are not.*
> *I also think that the NHS can be restored to the great institute that it was. It just needs the right government to do it.*


I wish but I feel that unfortunately there is too much apathy in the past (maybe overwhelm now). At polling stations with voting turn out, and the scale of the NHS. And maybe - controversially- a population who perhaps don't look after themselves so well (junk food etc) and Covid precautions. We citizens also have to be diligent in how we act.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Whereas here, everyone complains they are confused by Plan This, Level That, Tier The Other. All this talk about Plan B, most people I know still don't know what plan A was.


So much lingo isn't there?!

A is for Astra Zeneca 
B is for bubble or booster or Barnard 
C for Covid or Castle or Cobra (missed meetings)
D for Dominic....


----------



## JANICE199

MollySmith said:


> I wish but I feel that unfortunately there is too much apathy in the past (maybe overwhelm now). At polling stations with voting turn out, and the scale of the NHS. And maybe - controversially- a population who perhaps don't look after themselves so well (junk food etc) and Covid precautions. We citizens also have to be diligent in how we act.


*I have said over the years on this forum i had never voted in my life. Then Jeremy Corbyn came along and i voted. I will not vote again until i see someone else with his values. As for us citizens, i'm with you on that. I'm by no means lead a " healthy " life, but i do use my common sense". I use and have used a mask whenever i've been in shops ect. Coughs and sneezes spread diseases was ingrained in me as a child. *
*I will add this, i hate wearing a mask when in shops, i ALWAYS feel ill the next day.*


----------



## Pawscrossed

JANICE199 said:


> *I have said over the years on this forum i had never voted in my life. Then Jeremy Corbyn came along and i voted. I will not vote again until i see someone else with his values. As for us citizens, i'm with you on that. I'm by no means lead a " healthy " life, but i do use my common sense". I use and have used a mask whenever i've been in shops ect. Coughs and sneezes spread diseases was ingrained in me as a child. *
> *I will add this, i hate wearing a mask when in shops, i ALWAYS feel ill the next day.*


It is a party you vote for not a person. Not voting doesn't help the NHS.

And imagine how nurses and doctors feel wearing a mask all the time.

I agree with @MollySmith. I'm being responsible which included my vaccinations as I am not exempt, is also a big part of looking after the NHS. I have begun running again, eating healthy foods and keeping my old bones in good shape, and leading by example to my family. My stepson would exist on crisp sandwiches given free reign


----------



## JANICE199

Pawscrossed said:


> It is a party you vote for not a person. Not voting doesn't help the NHS.
> 
> And imagine how nurses and doctors feel wearing a mask all the time.
> 
> I agree with @MollySmith. I'm being responsible which included my vaccinations as I am not exempt, is also a big part of looking after the NHS. I have begun running again, eating healthy foods and keeping my old bones in good shape, and leading by example to my family. My stepson would exist on crisp sandwiches given free reign


*Sorry i don't agree. I voted for the person I believed in, which was JC. I can't stand the new leader and i hated all but JC before him.*
*As for doctors and nurses having to wear masks all of the time, i would never want to be in their situation. I still refuse the jab, but then i believe that is my choice which should be respected if others want me to respect their choice.*


----------



## Pawscrossed

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry i don't agree. I voted for the person I believed in, which was JC. I can't stand the new leader and i hated all but JC before him.*
> *As for doctors and nurses having to wear masks all of the time, i would never want to be in their situation. I still refuse the jab, but then i believe that is my choice which should be respected if others want me to respect their choice.*


When people voted for the Tory party, they didn't vote for Boris Johnson. The Tory party members voted in the leader, likewise with the Labour Party - all parties.

When you voted, the polling card would have said Labour. And the manifesto would have been decided by the party. That is the political system in the UK. It's not really a point we can disagree on but a fact  but I completely appreciate the confusion as UK politics seems very driven by personalities, especially those head to head interview TV shows which remind me of presidential elections.

As much as we would like to blame a person, we can't really blame Boris no more than any other leader as it's a party, not a president.

But we do disagree on vaccines. I find it somewhat confusing to claim we need to protect the NHS and you haven't done the one thing that could help. Your choice of course, but I can't profess to understand or respect it.


----------



## stuaz

JANICE199 said:


> *I have said over the years on this forum i had never voted in my life. Then Jeremy Corbyn came along and i voted. I will not vote again until i see someone else with his values. As for us citizens, i'm with you on that. I'm by no means lead a " healthy " life, but i do use my common sense". I use and have used a mask whenever i've been in shops ect. Coughs and sneezes spread diseases was ingrained in me as a child. *
> *I will add this, i hate wearing a mask when in shops, i ALWAYS feel ill the next day.*


If you feel the candidates are not suitable, why not spoil your ballot instead? It's essentially the same as "none of the above". Not voting simply means your voice is never heard.


----------



## MollySmith

stuaz said:


> If you feel the candidates are not suitable, why not spoil your ballot instead? It's essentially the same as "none of the above". Not voting simply means your voice is never heard.


Or get involved to find a solution. Mind you that's exhausting.I take the view that if the manifesto matches most of my ethics and they are okay on a local level then I'll vote since no party is 100% match.

Much like dating I guess. If they metaphorically leave the toothpaste top off and the loo seat up, I can deal with it, but if they didn't flush the loo, then that's a no way. But I'm a terrible cheat as I don't believe in a party for life. I have no idea where I'm going with this metaphor…

But non voters have a huge power. I'm not sure I dare mention the B word here but that could've been very different had everyone voted. Well, every election. I don't understand not voting but none of my business and an ancestor was a Suffragette so I feel it's a hard won right.


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *I have said over the years on this forum i had never voted in my life. Then Jeremy Corbyn came along and i voted. I will not vote again until i see someone else with his values. As for us citizens, i'm with you on that. I'm by no means lead a " healthy " life, but i do use my common sense". I use and have used a mask whenever i've been in shops ect. Coughs and sneezes spread diseases was ingrained in me as a child. *
> *I will add this, i hate wearing a mask when in shops, i ALWAYS feel ill the next day.*


@Pawscrossed pretty much said what I would've said. It is a party we vote for, not a person. A leader is only temporary but the core values of a party, and how it '"leans" tend to be the same. Jeremy Corbyn is still a member of the Labour Party. Theoretically the manifesto should still be the same as it was at the election.


----------



## Psygon

Calvine said:


> Does anyone know (out of interest) - all these people unable to go to work because of positive tests - bus/tube/train drivers, bin men, NHS staff, and no doubt shortly, teachers and many others: do they have to prove that they have had positive tests? Or is the situation open to abuse by those who simply fancy a few days off?


Where I work (public sector) we don't ask for proof... But then the people I line manage all wfh at the moment and have been back working within the 5 day self certification period (and can finish off self isolation while working). I've never had to check the rules for anyone that's gone over that... I might look at what the rules say...


----------



## £54etgfb6

I agree with voting for the party not the person. I would always vote SNP on the principle that I want Scottish independence (I am not inviting a debate about Scottish independence) but would vote Labour if my constituency was a tie between Conservatives and Labour (I would not like conservatives in power- surprise). Do I adore Nicola Sturgeon? No but she is the person the SNP party have voted best represents their party. This could be because they find her good at public speaking, likeable, persuasive, god at negotiations, responsible, etc etc. Whichever reason benefits the party most. Any political taken is not undertaken by her alone as that would be a dictatorship. Any opinion and change in regulation/law still has to go through parliament in Holyrood. Out of all the parties in Scotland I side most with the SNPs but other parties still have seats in parliament and so still have a say in what goes on. However, voting decides which party has the majority.

It may sound harsh but I am a firm believer that if you take no action to improve situations then you can't really complain about them. While one person cannot change the world, taking actions however small still has a progressive effect. Politics is often voting for the lesser evil in my opinion but I understand some people cannot be done with it. I still find it hard to sympathise when they complain about laws/how the government handles things when they have made zero effort to exert the control that they _do_ have over these things. The public have more power than those at the top.

Disinterested non-voters is what many politicians rely on in order the get a seat and it is part of the reason why there is a huge push to get young people to vote as politicians do not represent us and they don't need to because we aren't pressuring them to through our votes.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I said on the other Covid thread that hospital staff where I work who are declining vaccination will now be dealt with by the legal team, rather than their manager. They have until February 3rd to get their first vaccination. I think it’s better to be dealt with by someone you don’t actually work alongside. 

As for PCRs, I think (I’ve not done one) at the hospital you need to arrange your PCR via a certain route, which is hospital based, so I think that’s the “proof positive” as it were.


----------



## MilleD

Psygon said:


> Where I work (public sector) we don't ask for proof... But then the people I line manage all wfh at the moment and have been back working within the 5 day self certification period (and can finish off self isolation while working). I've never had to check the rules for anyone that's gone over that... I might look at what the rules say...


Same in my team, we don't ask for proof. But as you say, working from home, if they are not 'ill', they can work whilst isolating.


----------



## Psygon

bmr10 said:


> I agree with voting for the party not the person. I would always vote SNP on the principle that I want Scottish independence (I am not inviting a debate about Scottish independence) but would vote Labour if my constituency was a tie between Conservatives and Labour (I would not like conservatives in power- surprise). Do I adore Nicola Sturgeon? No but she is the person the SNP party have voted best represents their party. This could be because they find her good at public speaking, likeable, persuasive, god at negotiations, responsible, etc etc. Whichever reason benefits the party most. Any political taken is not undertaken by her alone as that would be a dictatorship. Any opinion and change in regulation/law still has to go through parliament in Holyrood. Out of all the parties in Scotland I side most with the SNPs but other parties still have seats in parliament and so still have a say in what goes on. However, voting decides which party has the majority.
> 
> It may sound harsh but I am a firm believer that if you take no action to improve situations then you can't really complain about them. While one person cannot change the world, taking actions however small still has a progressive effect. Politics is often voting for the lesser evil in my opinion but I understand some people cannot be done with it. I still find it hard to sympathise when they complain about laws/how the government handles things when they have made zero effort to exert the control that they _do_ have over these things. The public have more power than those at the top.
> 
> Disinterested non-voters is what many politicians rely on in order the get a seat and it is part of the reason why there is a huge push to get young people to vote as politicians do not represent us and they don't need to because we aren't pressuring them to through our votes.


In local elections I always try to vote for who I think will make the most difference locally. Party politics come into it a bit, but it matters to me that the local / ward councillors understand the area and have ideas and plans to make things better. I always hate to see people standing for election that don't live, and have never lived, in the ward they are standing in.

When it comes to national elections I go for the party I believe could make a difference nationally (not the person).

So I think I am contradictory!


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I agree with voting for the party not the person. I would always vote SNP on the principle that I want Scottish independence (I am not inviting a debate about Scottish independence) but would vote Labour if my constituency was a tie between Conservatives and Labour (I would not like conservatives in power- surprise). Do I adore Nicola Sturgeon? No but she is the person the SNP party have voted best represents their party. This could be because they find her good at public speaking, likeable, persuasive, god at negotiations, responsible, etc etc. Whichever reason benefits the party most. Any political taken is not undertaken by her alone as that would be a dictatorship. Any opinion and change in regulation/law still has to go through parliament in Holyrood. Out of all the parties in Scotland I side most with the SNPs but other parties still have seats in parliament and so still have a say in what goes on. However, voting decides which party has the majority.
> 
> It may sound harsh but I am a firm believer that if you take no action to improve situations then you can't really complain about them. While one person cannot change the world, taking actions however small still has a progressive effect. Politics is often voting for the lesser evil in my opinion but I understand some people cannot be done with it. I still find it hard to sympathise when they complain about laws/how the government handles things when they have made zero effort to exert the control that they _do_ have over these things. The public have more power than those at the top.
> 
> Disinterested non-voters is what many politicians rely on in order the get a seat and it is part of the reason why there is a huge push to get young people to vote as politicians do not represent us and they don't need to because we aren't pressuring them to through our votes.


This 100%


----------



## Lurcherlad

I vote for the party usually, but have been having my own little private protest with my local MP.

He is on the opposite side of the fence to me on some important issues including fox hunting and the badger cull (I’m vehemently against both!) and I can’t in all conscience vote for such a man.

His party have a massive majority and my vote won’t really make much difference, so I have voted Green the last couple of times.

Given that women died to get me the vote, I feel very strongly that I should use it.

“None of the above” is always an option too.

Tbh none of the parties fill me with any confidence they would do a good job on every aspect.

I’m probably a Liberal or Green in practice but I’m not convinced they could do the whole job well enough.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I am really worried, my mum was advised by her moronic GP not to get a booster because natural defences are the best. 
Her cardiologist told her to get it, of course!
My mum is nearly 80 and her health is not the best.
She just had a bad flu (was tested negative).
Maybe if doctors who do not want their patients to get vaccinated should not be paid by tax payers?
It is in Poland, no wonder half of the population not vaccinated and death rates scary though only half of it reported.


----------



## MollySmith

This on NHS overwhelm by the wife of a man who died in December in Nottingham. It isn't an easy read.
https://centralbylines.co.uk/is-the-nhs-overwhelmed-jakes-last-friday-on-earth/


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> This on NHS overwhelm by the wife of a man who died in December in Nottingham. It isn't an easy read.
> https://centralbylines.co.uk/is-the-nhs-overwhelmed-jakes-last-friday-on-earth/


That's awful  I have no words.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> That's awful  I have no words.


((hugs)) tough read but so moving.

I thanked her on Twitter but it didn't feel anything like enough. But it sums up how we have to protect the NHS by taking good care of ourselves


----------



## MollySmith

Over 360 people died on 20th May whilst Downing Street held a party with the PM's knowledge (having deflected the questions previously). My friend was burying her father on that day.

https://bigissue.com/news/more-than...F3OLIugS800WmrnTpL19PQxaOgEJKzIHccjcdxcFgknRA


----------



## Lurcherlad

@MollySmith



:Rage

No words


----------



## Psygon

MollySmith said:


> Over 360 people died on 20th May whilst Downing Street held a party with the PM's knowledge (having deflected the questions previously). My friend was burying her father on that day.
> 
> https://bigissue.com/news/more-than...F3OLIugS800WmrnTpL19PQxaOgEJKzIHccjcdxcFgknRA


I was particularly unimpressed with the MP, Michael Fabricant, who gave some defence on Twitter. Like these people were all key workers, working in the same building, working hard, no outside guests etc so it wasnt a flagrant breach of the rules. Wonder what would have happened if an NHS Hospital let all its key workers who were working hard and all in the same building have a party in their grounds with no outside guests on 20 May 2020... or maybe all the staff at a Tesco, who were all working hard to make sure everyone else could buy food... hmm


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> I was particularly unimpressed with the MP, Michael Fabricant, who gave some defence on Twitter. Like these people were all key workers, working in the same building, working hard, no outside guests etc so it wasnt a flagrant breach of the rules. Wonder what would have happened if an NHS Hospital let all its key workers who were working hard and all in the same building have a party in their grounds with no outside guests on 20 May 2020... or maybe all the staff at a Tesco, who were all working hard to make sure everyone else could buy food... hmm


I have yet to work out if I think his hair is worse than Boris.

I hate to resurrect this thread but I feel we need to remember all this when it comes to the General Election, as if we can't forget. I hope we don't.


----------



## ForestWomble




----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Over 360 people died on 20th May whilst Downing Street held a party with the PM's knowledge (having deflected the questions previously). My friend was burying her father on that day.
> 
> https://bigissue.com/news/more-than...F3OLIugS800WmrnTpL19PQxaOgEJKzIHccjcdxcFgknRA


Lmaooo and yet there were people fined for going on a walk "too far" from their house during that same time period. Not a single one of them will be held accountable. If they are _somehow _found guilty no action will be taken. What a lovely bunch.


----------



## Cleo38

I was planning my mums' funeral during the week those b*stards at Downing Street held yet another party. I had to make lots of difficult phone calls to her friends telling them they couldn't attend due to Covid restrictions on numbers of guests yet evidently those rules didn't apply to those in government. Am not really surprised tbh but it still makes me feel sick to the stomach thinking of how people have sacrificed so much.

I was listening to R2 earlier & a woman was in bits describing how she had missed seeing her dad in his final months due to restrictions & the guilt she felt over this. I was in bits listening to her as it was all so dreadfully sad


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> I am really worried, my mum was advised by her moronic GP not to get a booster because natural defences are the best.
> Her cardiologist told her to get it, of course!
> My mum is nearly 80 and her health is not the best.
> She just had a bad flu (was tested negative).
> Maybe if doctors who do not want their patients to get vaccinated should not be paid by tax payers?
> It is in Poland, no wonder half of the population not vaccinated and death rates scary though only half of it reported.


 GPs in UK (so I read) were paid £15 per vaccination. Not sure if that was for the primary course or for each of the two jabs included in the primary course; if this is true, then UK GP's would not be talking people out of it I imagine? Or is that me being a tad cynical?


----------



## Calvine

Cleo38 said:


> the week those b*stards at Downing Street held yet another party


 It's not just the fact that they did it (as we are so used to the: ''Don't do as I do, do as I say'' that it no longer shocks. But that they add insult to injury by assuming that it will never be found out and that they will not be held accountable for their hypocrisy. That we will sit back and take it.
Sorry about your mum. XX


----------



## Lurcherlad

Calvine said:


> It's not just the fact that they did it (as we are so used to the: ''Don't do as I do, do as I say'' that it no longer shocks. But that they add insult to injury by assuming that it will never be found out and that they will not be held accountable for their hypocrisy. That we will sit back and take it.
> Sorry about your mum. XX


indeed.

Not to mention the smirk on BJ's face when confronted.


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> indeed.
> 
> Not to mention the smirk on BJ's face when confronted.


They are a disgrace.


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> I was planning my mums' funeral during the week those b*stards at Downing Street held yet another party. I had to make lots of difficult phone calls to her friends telling them they couldn't attend due to Covid restrictions on numbers of guests yet evidently those rules didn't apply to those in government. Am not really surprised tbh but it still makes me feel sick to the stomach thinking of how people have sacrificed so much.
> 
> I was listening to R2 earlier & a woman was in nits describing how she had missed seeing her dad in his final months due to restrictions & the guilt she felt over this. I was in bits listening to her as it was all so dreadfully sad


((hugs)) I don't think (outside PF), that I don't know of a single family unaffected by the loss, grief and isolation of the lockdowns and then add to that the anguish of sacrifice. Then I come on here and read more loss and it's heartbreaking. Especially when you were worried yourself about what to do and meanwhile...


----------



## MollySmith

Lurcherlad said:


> indeed.
> 
> Not to mention the smirk on BJ's face when confronted.


It makes me think of Blackadder and Stephen Fry's character who sat behind a desk directing the war and the distance between Blackadder and those in charge. That was largely based on fact but you'd like to think that in 2020 we'd be past that sort of divide.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

When I think of what people went through, I can't vocalise how angry I am.

At that time I made some pretty awful phone calls to people and women had awful things happen, all on their own.

Never mind all the poor families not able to be with their loved ones who were dying, we needed to have after work drinks. B*******.

So sorry @Cleo38  I'm so sad you had to go through all this.

I've never voted Conservative in my life and never would - but blimey. I do wonder how they'll wriggle out of all of this.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> GPs in UK (so I read) were paid £15 per vaccination. Not sure if that was for the primary course or for each of the two jabs included in the primary course; if this is true, then UK GP's would not be talking people out of it I imagine? Or is that me being a tad cynical?


I cannot look this up right now as I am at uni but this is surely only in England as the rest of the UK pay GP surgeries via block contract meaning they get a certain amount of money each year and if they need more they can ask for more. England pay GPs via payment by result meaning hospital trusts and GP surgeries are paid for each service they provide, per service they provide (if that makes sense). This would not go into the GP's pocket though as most GPs at a surgery are not a partner. If they were a partner this would still not be their own money but perhaps surplus could be used to improve the surgery (which would give them an incentive to encourage vaccinations??).

Not too sure about the last part as I am not as well versed about the healthcare system in England.

However, the doctor in question is… questionable in my opinion. This is not evidence based medicine and arguing that they have the patients best interests at heart would be difficult as the evidence contradicts this.


----------



## Boxer123

Sorry for your loss @Cleo38 how awful.

I attended a lockdown funeral in the summer virtually watching on my laptop on my own.

I'm disgusted with this government. A gathering of that many people I'm sure they would have spread the virus then some of them would have got on public transport, visited the shops and spread it further.


----------



## Blackadder

Lets be honest, if Boris needs the result of an investigation to decide if he was/wasn't at a party at his residence/office/place of work then surely something is sadly wrong!


----------



## MollySmith

Johnson will still have to sign off the inquiry before it is released to the public and could request "clarifications". That can delay the publication - it took six months to publish the bullying report against Patel and she's still part of the Cabinet. It does make me wonder what on earth one has to do to be sacked and how much responsibility the party as a collective or the Cabinet take, given they elected him into power. I can't imagine the actives at Number 10 are so top secret that nobody knows. And the Met's complicity in this too... do they still have a police officer outside Number 10, if so where did they think these people were going with bottles of wine?

One of the threads that I have followed is Andrew Male on Twitter whose wife Collette died on 9th April very suddenly, probably from Covid. She ran a cafe called Nico and he's a journalist for Guardian, Sunday Times and MOJO. I've followed him as I love his tweets and music reps, and found the last two years so moving as he's spoken about the devastation of watching his wife of a few years die via Zoom. This is the link to his feed if you're on Twitter and the sadness of a young, vibrant woman who left behind a devoted husband and a much loved animal family including Nico their dog.


----------



## Happy Paws2

PM Question Time at 12.30 today could be interesting.


----------



## Blackadder

Happy Paws2 said:


> PM Question Time at 12.30 today could be interesting.


Indeed it will but I would have preferred Angela Rayner to be asking the question rather than "Mr Dull" Starmer.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Blackadder said:


> Indeed it will but I would have preferred Angela Rayner to be asking the question rather than "Mr Dull" Starmer.


That's just we were saying this morning.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> do they still have a police officer outside Number 10, if so where did they think these people were going with bottles of wine?


Do you think we will be told exactly who was there?; I wonder if anyone had the sense to think it was not a good idea and turned the invitation down?


----------



## Arny

Calvine said:


> Do you think we will be told exactly who was there?; I wonder if anyone had the sense to think it was not a good idea and turned the invitation down?


I heard about 100 were invited but only around 30 attended. 
There were messages that pretty much said 'what are you thinking' so its nice to know they're not all idiots.


----------



## Jesthar

I wish the opposition were allowed to substitute Jeremy Paxman and/or Anne Robinson...


----------



## JANICE199

*He makes my skin crawl with his lies.*
*https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk...edium=email&pure360.trackingid={~TrackingId~}*


----------



## MollySmith

Blackadder said:


> Indeed it will but I would have preferred Angela Rayner to be asking the question rather than "Mr Dull" Starmer.


He really needs to get back to his ruthless early day and take the entire shower of a government down. He's got legal background and all the evidence. I wish, but this is so much more than Starmer. All eyes on Boris and it's tragic. And if the Tory's don't get rid of him now, it speaks volumes about how they view us all and those who elected them.

I cannot believe what he said. How many parties do they have at number 10 during lockdown for him to be so confused as to the purpose?!


----------



## MollySmith

In case you didn't want to waste popcorn.. (I can't see how the gathering came under any guidance tbh)


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> In case you didn't want to waste popcorn.. (I can't see how the gathering came under any guidance tbh)
> 
> View attachment 482568
> 
> 
> View attachment 482569


What kind of work event involves food and alcohol anyway? Wouldn't a work event be around a table and professional? Enjoying drinks and food with colleagues is an out of work affair in my opinion but perhaps in some places you're allowed to get boozed up while on the job? :Yawn I'm still not allowed to eat in my staff room if another person's already inside so then I have to eat my food in our bloody stock room and yet under work conditions they were allowed a party?


----------



## Magyarmum

bmr10 said:


> What kind of work event involves food and alcohol anyway? Wouldn't a work event be around a table and professional? Enjoying drinks and food with colleagues is an out of work affair in my opinion but perhaps in some places you're allowed to get boozed up while on the job? :Yawn I'm still not allowed to eat in my staff room if another person's already inside so then I have to eat my food in our bloody stock room and yet under work conditions they were allowed a party?


Lunches and dinners with food and alcohol are a common business practice.


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> Lunches and dinners with food and alcohol are a common business practice.


In normal times maybe but we were meant to be working virtually where possible. I've not seen some of my colleagues in person since the start of the pandemic we certainly haven't had get togethers.

This man is such a liar it is scary he is in charge of the country. He has to go.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Magyarmum said:


> Lunches and dinners with food and alcohol are a common business practice.


Surely alcohol is not conductive to business? Sounds very informal and more like a casual get together. If I were hosting a meeting I wouldn't personally want food there as I'd rather limit distractions and alcohol certainly wouldn't be permitted. Perhaps my view is because I don't have experience in business but I still don't see how any business gets done with alcohol and snacks involved.

Getting together out of work for a meal or at a bar is not a work activity either imo. Even if business plans are discussed. I have done this in my current work and viewed it as a casual meet up with colleagues and managers.


----------



## Boxer123

bmr10 said:


> Surely alcohol is not conductive to business? Sounds very informal and more like a casual get together. If I were hosting a meeting I wouldn't personally want food there as I'd rather limit distractions and alcohol certainly wouldn't be permitted. Perhaps my view is because I don't have experience in business but I still don't see how any business gets done with alcohol and snacks involved.
> 
> Getting together out of work for a meal or at a bar is not a work activity either imo. Even if business plans are discussed. I have done this in my current work and viewed it as a casual meet up with colleagues and managers.


Seems our government spent most of the pandemic having boozy lunches is it any wander we got hit so hard.


----------



## MollySmith

Pubs were shut during May 2020 with many staff laid off and as I've mentioned here, landlords wondering if they would still have a business. We had support bubbles. I had worked from home since 4th March and hadn't seen anyone, not even my parents as my brother and I discussed bubbles and I wondered if I would see him again. I remember every single network group I belong to closing and those that did remain open being full of people on Zoom wondering how they'd do business. If we all managed to cope somehow one would like to think they could without drinkies. By mixing, they were against their own guidance.

And it's not the situation, to me, so much as that it had to be found out/leaked otherwise we'd never know (which makes me think what else) and the awful non-apology. It's an insult.

Other news happened today (last time party gate hit the news the policing bill was being heard)

https://www.edie.net/amp-news/11/UK...ero-Strategy-and-Heat-and-Buildings-Strategy/


----------



## Jaf

It seems to me that either Boris is lying or telling the truth. I don't know which is worse. If lie then he really doesn't get a toss about morals, he thinks he can do as he pleases. If truth then he is so stupid/ incompetent that he didn't understand rules that he wrote.


----------



## Blackadder

People were dying, alone & prevented from having loved ones with them in their last hours! Boris had a party....

Let that sink in!


----------



## £54etgfb6

Jaf said:


> It seems to me that either Boris is lying or telling the truth. I don't know which is worse. If lie then he really doesn't get a toss about morals, he thinks he can do as he pleases. If truth then he is so stupid/ incompetent that he didn't understand rules that he wrote.


Did he not initially claim to have no knowledge about the party? And then changed his tune to say that yes he was aware but did not attend? And now he is admitting he attended but claiming he thought it was allowed under guidelines?

Why would someone be so defensive and evasive if they were telling the truth? If he genuinely believed it was permitted under guidelines, and if he had good reason to back up that belief, then he would say from the start in my opinion instead of changing tune three times (so far).

I am not optimistic to trust a word that comes out his mouth in any scenario, least of all this.


----------



## Arny

bmr10 said:


> Did he not initially claim to have no knowledge about the party? And then changed his tune to say that yes he was aware but did not attend? And now he is admitting he attended but claiming he thought it was allowed under guidelines?


I think that was a different one..


----------



## MollySmith

Arny said:


> I think that was a different one..


One wonders if he'll know what a leaving party is? Can we call the Tory Party, the Party Party ?


----------



## MollySmith

Sharing with the *Trigger* that this maybe upsetting, Rory Kinnear on his sister's funeral on 20 May
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...N5k9stgu5zBnHRaorOGKuAO9cc#Echobox=1641993863


----------



## Jaf

I see that the High Court has ruled that the VIP fast track scheme for PPE contracts given to Boris's mates was unlawful. Bunch of utterly terrible people. PPE that couldn't even be used! Making money of of death and misery.

(In The Independent newspaper)


----------



## MollySmith

Meanwhile the Chancellor sat next door working how to make the poor even poorer and didn't report the events in number 10...










And on the PM in waiting who was in Devon 'looking at local jobs' (his own presumably too), let's not forget he was a supporter of Cummings who also broke the rules but his Private Secretary appears to believe the PM has done enough! What planet are these people on?!


----------



## Boxer123




----------



## £54etgfb6

Arny said:


> I think that was a different one..


losing count at this point


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Meanwhile the Chancellor sat next door working how to make the poor even poorer and didn't report the events in number 10...
> 
> View attachment 482575
> 
> 
> And on the PM in waiting who was in Devon 'looking at local jobs' (his own presumably too), let's not forget he was a supporter of Cummings who also broke the rules but his Private Secretary appears to believe the PM has done enough! What planet are these people on?!
> 
> View attachment 482576
> 
> 
> View attachment 482577


Britain's vaccine programme did not lead the world so why this person is claiming that it did I do not know. Israel had already vaccinated almost a quarter of it's population while we had vaccinated under 5%. We lagged behind several middle eastern countries for weeks. What is the obsession with "Great" Britain (or the west in general) being the best. Our vaccine programme has had major success but in no way was it the first successful programme and thus it did not lead the world.

Just a very big pet peeve of mine. If people want our country to prosper then let us be honest about what we have done well and also about what other countries have done well. Israel had to overcome a huge proportion of vaccine fear/concern particularly in religious groups and this should not be discounted. /: /:


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> Britain's vaccine programme did not lead the world so why this person is claiming that it did I do not know. Israel had already vaccinated almost a quarter of it's population while we had vaccinated under 5%. We lagged behind several middle eastern countries for weeks. What is the obsession with "Great" Britain (or the west in general) being the best. Our vaccine programme has had major success but in no way was it the first successful programme and thus it did not lead the world.
> 
> Just a very big pet peeve of mine. If people want our country to prosper then let us be honest about what we have done well and also about what other countries have done well. Israel had to overcome a huge proportion of vaccine fear/concern particularly in religious groups and this should not be discounted. /: /:


Agree with you, worryingly this tweet was by Simon Clarke. Sunak's secretary. And it's the science created it and lead the world with a cure and the government who then had to deliver the vaccine and tried to own it and make it a point scoring, political piece that's now divided a country. I do feel we'd have less anti-vaccinators had science and medicine had the freedom to speak.

And it's alleged that Sunak lives at the flat at 10 and it's Boris at 11 as the flat at 11 is larger than 10. That's been common place for a few terms apparently.


----------



## JANICE199

*After watching the PM spinning his latest excuses last night, i turned over to watch Peston. I learnt something i didn't know and that is, The PM cannot be sacked by ANYONE other than HIMSELF  How on god's earth can that even be right? :Rage*


----------



## MilleD

JANICE199 said:


> *After watching the PM spinning his latest excuses last night, i turned over to watch Peston. I learnt something i didn't know and that is, The PM cannot be sacked by ANYONE other than HIMSELF  How on god's earth can that even be right? :Rage*


A PM can be removed by a vote of no confidence.

It's only if Labour are in power that a PM can choose to ignore that vote of no confidence.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

JANICE199 said:


> *After watching the PM spinning his latest excuses last night, i turned over to watch Peston. I learnt something i didn't know and that is, The PM cannot be sacked by ANYONE other than HIMSELF  How on god's earth can that even be right? :Rage*


To be sacked it needs enoughTory Mps to send in letters of no confidence to the chair of 1922 to trigger a no confidence vote, if Johnson lost that vote he wouid have to stand down as PM and a leadership battle would begin. I think following the Thathcher vote of no.confidence the Conservatives changed their rules to prevent the PM from being a candidate in a new leadership campaign.


----------



## JANICE199

3dogs2cats said:


> To be sacked it needs enoughTory Mps to send in letters of no confidence to the chair of 1922 to trigger a no confidence vote, if Johnson lost that vote he wouid have to stand down as PM and a leadership battle would begin. I think following the Thathcher vote of no.confidence the Conservatives changed their rules to prevent the PM from being a candidate in a new leadership campaign.


*I understand what you are saying, but standing down is not the same as being sacked ( as i see it. ) I only mentioned it as it was news to me. *


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> It's only if Labour are in power that a PM can choose to ignore that vote of no confidence.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

JANICE199 said:


> *I understand what you are saying, but standing down is not the same as being sacked ( as i see it. ) I only mentioned it as it was news to me. *


I know it does seem odd but the PM is leader of the Conservative leader as voted by the party so only they can remove him as their leader. They won't of course he is thier pin up boy, everyone loves big bumbling Boris don't they


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> I know it does seem odd but the PM is leader of the Conservative leader as voted by the party so only they can remove him as their leader. *They won't of course he is thier pin up boy, everyone loves big bumbling Boris don't they *


At one time they would forgive him almost anything but I think he's now on borrowed time.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> A PM can be removed by a vote of no confidence.
> 
> It's only if Labour are in power that a PM can choose to ignore that vote of no confidence.





3dogs2cats said:


> To be sacked it needs enoughTory Mps to send in letters of no confidence to the chair of 1922 to trigger a no confidence vote, if Johnson lost that vote he wouid have to stand down as PM and a leadership battle would begin. I think following the Thathcher vote of no.confidence the Conservatives changed their rules to prevent the PM from being a candidate in a new leadership campaign.


Only 4 Tory MPs have written to the 1922 committee according to Bloomsberg and The Spectator as of this morning with no confidence vote, which pretty much sums up the uselessness of all involved. Let's not forget that Gray's report is commissioned by the PM and signed off by him, it's not a smoking gun so right now nobody in the Tory party apart from 4 MPs are asking him to go via official means.

(NB Under the different rules in place in 1990, Thatcher defeated Heseltine by 204 to 152 in a vote of Tory MPs after he challenged her position.But the margin of her victory was just short of 15% required so a second ballot was triggered. Initially she intended to contest another ballot. She is the only Prime Minister to be removed from office by a party leadership ballot among her own MPs.)


----------



## MollySmith

Today is operation save Boris.

Jacob Rees-Mogg has said that the rule were too tight in lock down
_"I think everybody understands that people were obeying the rules and these rules were very hard for people to obey." He told MPs that he had been contacted by a friend who was unable to go to the funeral of his two-year old granddaughter during lockdown. "We must consider as this goes to an inquiry and we look into what happened with Covid whether all those regulations were proportionate or whether it was too hard on people," he added._​
Number 10 is not backing up this claim which completely changes the narrative, implies Chris Whitty and Patrick Valance (and the now very sadly resigned Jonathan Van Tamm) were wrong. Also implies Rees-Mogg has feelings and compassion.

And Rees-Mogg has 
_"dismissed the Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross as a "lightweight" within the party, after he called for the prime minister's resignation. Mr Ross said Boris Johnson should step down after he admitted attending a Downing Street party during lockdown. Jacob Rees-Mogg said Mr Ross was a "lightweight figure", and the PM had the support of more "important" MPs." _​Meanwhile the FT and the Times said that 
_Within minutes of delivering a "heartfelt" apology to the Commons for attending a drinks event in the garden of No 10 during the first lockdown, Boris Johnson had a somewhat different message for Tory MPs in the tearoom.

The prime minister was, according to those present, far from contrite. He told colleagues that "we have taken a lot of hits in politics and this is one of them", adding: "Sometimes we take the credit for things we don't deserve and this time we're taking hits for something we don't deserve."

Douglas Ross, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said that Johnson took a similar tone when he spoke to him yesterday afternoon. He said that the prime minister told him that he "believes he didn't do anything wrong"._​
Polls suggest that Kier Starmer is 51% more trustworthy; some Tory candidates are thinking of denouncing Johnson before May local elections and unfortunately Carrie didn't give birth to distract us from her husband's career nosedive but someone in his family got Covid so he can't go to Burnley and won't be seen in public for a while... handy timing all round.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Today is operation save Boris.
> 
> Jacob Rees-Mogg has said that the rule were too tight in lock down
> _"I think everybody understands that people were obeying the rules and these rules were very hard for people to obey." He told MPs that he had been contacted by a friend who was unable to go to the funeral of his two-year old granddaughter during lockdown. "We must consider as this goes to an inquiry and we look into what happened with Covid whether all those regulations were proportionate or whether it was too hard on people," he added._​
> Number 10 is not backing up this claim which completely changes the narrative, implies Chris Whitty and Patrick Valance (and the now very sadly resigned Jonathan Van Tamm) were wrong. Also implies Rees-Mogg has feelings and compassion.
> 
> And Rees-Mogg has
> _"dismissed the Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross as a "lightweight" within the party, after he called for the prime minister's resignation. Mr Ross said Boris Johnson should step down after he admitted attending a Downing Street party during lockdown. Jacob Rees-Mogg said Mr Ross was a "lightweight figure", and the PM had the support of more "important" MPs." _​Meanwhile the FT and the Times said that
> _Within minutes of delivering a "heartfelt" apology to the Commons for attending a drinks event in the garden of No 10 during the first lockdown, Boris Johnson had a somewhat different message for Tory MPs in the tearoom.
> 
> The prime minister was, according to those present, far from contrite. He told colleagues that "we have taken a lot of hits in politics and this is one of them", adding: "Sometimes we take the credit for things we don't deserve and this time we're taking hits for something we don't deserve."
> 
> Douglas Ross, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said that Johnson took a similar tone when he spoke to him yesterday afternoon. He said that the prime minister told him that he "believes he didn't do anything wrong"._​
> Polls suggest that Kier Starmer is 51% more trustworthy; some Tory candidates are thinking of denouncing Johnson before May local elections and unfortunately Carrie didn't give birth to distract us from her husband's career nosedive but someone in his family got Covid so he can't go to Burnley and won't be seen in public for a while... handy timing all round.


How can someone sanely compare a child's funeral and a party? Regardless of whether restrictions were fair or not, these are incomparable situations. How laughable and yet worrying that someone would think the need to/benefit from attending a funeral is the same as the need to/benefit gained from attending a party.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> How can someone sanely compare a child's funeral and a party? Regardless of whether restrictions were fair or not, these are incomparable situations. How laughable and yet worrying that someone would think the need to/benefit from attending a funeral is the same as the need to/benefit gained from attending a party.


Absolutely agree. It's an inflammatory comment and so very strange the more one pulls it apart. He's the oddest man, I wonder if they think eccentricity is endearing...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> GPs in UK (so I read) were paid £15 per vaccination. Not sure if that was for the primary course or for each of the two jabs included in the primary course; if this is true, then UK GP's would not be talking people out of it I imagine? Or is that me being a tad cynical?


It was not in UK, sadly.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> Only 4 Tory MPs have written to the 1922 committee according to Bloomsberg and The Spectator as of this morning with no confidence vote, which pretty much sums up the uselessness of all involved. Let's not forget that Gray's report is commissioned by the PM and signed off by him, it's not a smoking gun so right now nobody in the Tory party apart from 4 MPs are asking him to go via official means.
> 
> (NB Under the different rules in place in 1990, Thatcher defeated Heseltine by 204 to 152 in a vote of Tory MPs after he challenged her position.But the margin of her victory was just short of 15% required so a second ballot was triggered. Initially she intended to contest another ballot. She is the only Prime Minister to be removed from office by a party leadership ballot among her own MPs.)


Only 50 more MPs to put their letters in then I wonder if the is 4 from this particular mess or 4 in total, I think a letter sent in stays in unless the MP retracts it so possibly a few more in the ` The PM is a bloody idiot` pigeon hole.


----------



## MollySmith

3dogs2cats said:


> Only 50 more MPs to put their letters in then I wonder if the is 4 from this particular mess or 4 in total, I think a letter sent in stays in unless the MP retracts it so possibly a few more in the ` The PM is a bloody idiot` pigeon hole.


I hate to mention the Brexit word, but that's why they voted him in, maybe that's part of it? Or fear?

They've removed the whip from Anne Marie Morris, a Devon MP. She voted this week in a favour of a Labour motion on the rising cost of living by challenging MPs to stick with promises on cutting VAT. The government had a majority of 90, with Morris being the only Tory MP to rebel. She said she rebelled in the best interests of her constituents...

Who'd be an MP?! If they say no confidence in Boris, they're punished, if constituents complain, they're punished too. (And as the murders of Sir David Amess and Jo Cox have sadly shown, they are vulnerable at surgeries)


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Only 4 Tory MPs have written to the 1922 committee according to Bloomsberg and The Spectator as of this morning with no confidence vote, which pretty much sums up the uselessness of all involved. Let's not forget that Gray's report is commissioned by the PM and signed off by him, it's not a smoking gun so right now nobody in the Tory party apart from 4 MPs are asking him to go via official means.
> 
> (NB Under the different rules in place in 1990, Thatcher defeated Heseltine by 204 to 152 in a vote of Tory MPs after he challenged her position.But the margin of her victory was just short of 15% required so a second ballot was triggered. Initially she intended to contest another ballot. She is the only Prime Minister to be removed from office by a party leadership ballot among her own MPs.)


So? I was answering the question that only the pm can remove the pm. Which isn't true.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


>


I know, it's true though.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> So? I was answering the question that only the pm can remove the pm. Which isn't true.


I _think_ the 1922 committee can force removal or advise it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sutton Coldfield Tory's last night voted that BJ should resign.


----------



## Calvine

BJ must love Prince Andrew: Whenever the shit hits the fan for Boris, Andrew's there to take over the headlines, albeit briefly.


----------



## MollySmith




----------



## Calvine

Made me laugh!


----------



## Calvine

This too. If you didn't laugh you'd top yourself. BJ's face is a picture!


----------



## MollySmith

OMG and more parties. Must be part of the job description under that bit that says 'and administrative duties as requested' which means making tea and fixing photocopier

This party was on 17 Dec 2020 for head of Covid rules task force leaving do….this is not the Simon Case party (Simon Case was the chap who was originally appointed by Boris to investigate the party on 17th until it was discovered he was at the party..). It's another party. 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...d-responsible-covid-rules-held-boozy-leaving/


----------



## Blackadder

I think it might be easier to post the dates when they didn't have a party?


----------



## £54etgfb6

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...kes-dig-snp-defending-downing-street-parties/

What does the party an MP come from have to do with the validity of their concern about the prime minister breaking restriction laws to attend a party? How immature to call a party by the wrong name and discount their opinion purely because you dislike the fact that they stand for independence… professionalism clearly isn't part of the job description?


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...kes-dig-snp-defending-downing-street-parties/
> 
> What does the party an MP come from have to do with the validity of their concern about the prime minister breaking restriction laws to attend a party? How immature to call a party by the wrong name and discount their opinion purely because you dislike the fact that they stand for independence… professionalism clearly isn't part of the job description?


And no apology to the family of Paul. Unless that was not reported (benefit of the doubt). I'm still baffled that he has as many kids as he apparently has.. he's turning into Walter Mitty...


----------



## HarlequinCat

To be honest they're all a bunch of hypocrites. There's now a video of starmer having a beer at a party with staff during restrictions too


----------



## Pawscrossed

HarlequinCat said:


> To be honest they're all a bunch of hypocrites. There's now a video of starmer having a beer at a party with staff during restrictions too


Legally slightly different as it was allowed. I had a drink with two colleagues in May 2021 and we definitely checked those rules before meeting up. Mixing between households was allowed if it was a work scenario or something like that and we remained socially distanced.

It's not possible to tell from the photos about distance. I recall many images in the first months where photographers were claiming people were not socially distanced. I went to a BLM event and it was in the local papers with a photographer claiming it wasn't distanced and it most certainly was!

It smacks of desperation by the Conservatives for me. Let's dig some dirt on someone else rather be decent ourselves and it's not really dirt at all. I can't be alone in legally gathering in May 2021. I detest this blame culture in politics.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> Legally slightly different as it was allowed. I had a drink with two colleagues in May 2021 and we definitely checked those rules before meeting up. Mixing between households was allowed if it was a work scenario or something like that and we remained socially distanced.
> 
> It's not possible to tell from the photos about distance. I recall many images in the first months where photographers were claiming people were not socially distanced. I went to a BLM event and it was in the local papers with a photographer claiming it wasn't distanced and it most certainly was!
> 
> It smacks of desperation by the Conservatives for me. Let's dig some dirt on someone else rather be decent ourselves and it's not really dirt at all. I can't be alone in legally gathering in May 2021. I detest this blame culture in politics.


Agree. And there's a massive difference between 2020 and 2021 with Covid. All parties need to clean up their own mess first but this nitwit MP is hardly helping The Government, them in charge. It's pathetic when compared to this below.

(Also bear in mind The Express who published this story about Starmer are a right leaning Conservative paper and James Slack mentioned below now works for the Sun, neither paper has been gunning for Boris but the Torygraph and Times have taken a dim view, both historically right leaning press..)


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> Agree. And there's a massive difference between 2020 and 2021 with Covid. All parties need to clean up their own mess first but this nitwit MP is hardly helping The Government, them in charge. It's pathetic when compared to this below.
> 
> (Also bear in mind The Express who published this story about Starmer are a right leaning Conservative paper and James Slack mentioned below now works for the Sun, neither paper has been gunning for Boris but the Torygraph and Times have taken a dim view, both historically right leaning press..)


So when indoor mixing between households, unless it was for work, was not allowed, it was OK for starmer to have a drink with colleagues?
I think both sides have broke, twisted and bent the rules. Tories seemingly more so than Labour. 
A lot people in politics think rules don't apply to them, no matter what party they are


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> So when indoor mixing between households, unless it was for work, was not allowed, it was OK for starmer to have a drink with colleagues?
> I think both sides have broke, twisted and bent the rules. Tories seemingly more so than Labour.
> A lot people in politics think rules don't apply to them, no matter what party they are


If they broke the rules of course it's wrong. I agree with you. I would much rather every political party came clean (no chance I know!) and paid attention to cleaning up their acts than this pointless blame game. I'm sure they've all broke rules to some point and it's not right whomever one is. I've said before on PF that even the way the House of Commons is set up encouraging slanging matches.

I was invited out last May to a pizza night and didn't go as the hosts kids were cooking and we'd have to go inside the house to use facilities. It felt too risky. I can't remember if that was before or after the May rule change. I think after would have been okay but I honestly can't remember. I think a lot of people got confused but one expects those who set them rules to follow them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If those who make the rules and expect us to follow them and then they break them, then they should resign, no if and buts about it, they should go. 

It's as simple as that..


----------



## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> To be honest they're all a bunch of hypocrites. There's now a video of starmer having a beer at a party with staff during restrictions too


 Nothing surprises any more. . . nothing at all. Am I right in thinking that the invitation to these hundreds of parties were sent brazenly by email? If anyone should know what was lawful and what was not it should have been Starmer - he's a lawyer isn't he?


----------



## rona

If you are still innocent enough to think any politician is not in some way corrupt, then you are living in a fairy tale.
The people who do not break the law or take advantage themselves are still covering for those that do. The system is geared to line their pockets after all.............
Even local politics are corrupt. It was amazing how my old boss, who was always short of cash, became rather flush when acting as a Councillor, and even more so when leader of the council...........then suddenly Bankrupt soon after he left, in very odd circumstances. But it was all hush hush. No one knew why he'd had to leave!


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> If you are still innocent enough to think any politician is not in some way corrupt, then you are living in a fairy tale.
> The people who do not break the law or take advantage themselves are still covering for those that do. The system is geared to line their pockets after all.............
> Even local politics are corrupt. It was amazing how my old boss, who was always short of cash, became rather flush when acting as a Councillor, and even more so when leader of the council...........then suddenly Bankrupt soon after he left, in very odd circumstances. But it was all hush hush. No one knew why he'd had to leave!


No one makes a lot of money without been corrupt in some way or another, the more money and power they have the more corrupt they are.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> No one makes a lot of money without been corrupt in some way or another, the more money and power they have the more corrupt they are.


I'm sorry HP but I have to strongly disagree with you there. I've known many very rich people, and some would be as annoyed as myself at underhand people.
Just because you have money, it doesn't make you bad, just as not having any makes you good!


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I'm sorry HP but I have to strongly disagree with you there. I've known many very rich people, and some would be as annoyed as myself at underhand people.
> Just because you have money, it doesn't make you bad, just as not having any makes you good!


I so agree. My father who was a miner's son started his own business just after the war. He and my mother worked hard and often went without whilst he was building it up. He ended up being a very wealthy man with a beautiful house and a Rolls Royce and when he retired he sold the business to a large American Corporation.

He was one of the most honest men you could ever meet. As he always said he had to look at himself in the mirror every morning


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> then suddenly Bankrupt soon after he left,


 It's starting to look as if the whole lot of them are morally bankrupt anyway.


----------



## ForestWomble

Not sure which covid thread to put this in, but wanted to share.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...new-excluded/ar-AASMPoq?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I'm sorry HP but I have to strongly disagree with you there. I've known many very rich people, and some would be as annoyed as myself at underhand people.
> Just because you have money, it doesn't make you bad, just as not having any makes you good!


I'm sorry..... I meant multimillionaires and the very powerful, no way can they have got there without a little corruption on the way.

Let face it most of the cabinet are multimillionaires.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> If you are still innocent enough to think any politician is not in some way corrupt, then you are living in a fairy tale.
> The people who do not break the law or take advantage themselves are still covering for those that do. The system is geared to line their pockets after all.............
> Even local politics are corrupt. It was amazing how my old boss, who was always short of cash, became rather flush when acting as a Councillor, and even more so when leader of the council...........then suddenly Bankrupt soon after he left, in very odd circumstances. But it was all hush hush. No one knew why he'd had to leave!


I do not see anyone here claiming any politician is not able to be corrupt. I merely hope they are not all so otherwise it would lead to a lot of cynicism and nobody would vote. There being a difference between not agreeing on a manifesto and corruption. I do think Westminster is very complex and I think it's designed to be so, in order to confuse us public.


----------



## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm sorry..... I meant multimillionaires and the very powerful, no way can they have got there without a little corruption on the way.
> 
> Let face it most of the cabinet are multimillionaires.


They are just in a completely different world than the rest of us. Look at the millionaires battling to go to space think of what that money could do here on Earth.

I think a lot of politicians come from old money their lives are mapped out they have so much more choices than many. It's different if you have worked for what you have.

The controversy caused by live islands Milly mae saying we all have the same 24 hours. We don't we really don't. Prince Harry telling us we should leave a job if it doesn't make us happy? Doesn't work in practice when you have bills to pay.

Of course some MPs are from working class backgrounds I believe Angela Raynor is. I quite like her.


----------



## MollySmith

I have been reading Simon Burall who is on Twitter and he's part of Involve. They are a charity whose website mission statement is: _"... want to build a more vibrant democracy, with people at the heart of decision-making. We need to make important choices as a society. But politics often doesn't work as it should. Decision-makers struggle to get things done. People are frustrated the system isn't working for them. And everyone is left feeling divided, distrustful and powerless. But things can be different. We have a vision of a vibrant democracy, with people at the heart of decision-making."_

Simon has multiple sclerosis and caught Covid in February 2021. He wrote about it here. 

He shared this week that Michael Gove told Conservative MPs at the 1922 Committee that_ "Boris Johnson "gets the big calls right". Of Covid and Plan B restrictions, he said: "It's fair to say I was at the bedwetter end of the spectrum... the PM said no, and turned out to be right._"

Simon's observation was that

....policy in general, nor covid policy in particular is a choice between the strong (dare I say manly) policy and the weak, or 'bedwetting' and that neither should the needs of people who want the economy open completely. Both sets of needs are valid and both need to be taken into account. It is impossible to achieve some sort of consensus that leaves everyone satisfied. But I really resent the implication that having fears for my health makes me weak and a 'bedwetter'.

I think we should all be worried if a cabinet minister thinks of themselves in these terms. It means they are narrowing the choices they can make, and will end up making choices which make them feel more like a man. This isn't a political point, it's a point about our democracy. Gove's statement positions a perfectly valid and reasonable policy position at the 'wrong' end of an absurd spectrum. This spectrum constrains policy choices and leaves people worried about stating some types of policies for fear of being called a 'bedwetter'. A healthy democracy has a high deliberative capacity. This means that many different view points are visible, interacting and influencing each other

Gove's "man <---> bedwetter" spectrum has the effect of restricting views that people are willing to make public. It therefore restricts policy choices and should have no place in government. As an aside, the term 'bedwetter' is also highly indicative of the type of education and socialisation that public schools provide.​
I wanted to share this here because it's about the most sensible thing I've read about democracy, language and class for a long time. There's an awful lot of chest beating behaviour coming out this week.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm sorry..... I meant multimillionaires and the very powerful, no way can they have got there without a little corruption on the way.
> 
> Let face it most of the cabinet are multimillionaires.


What do you define as "corrupt" because It's a very sweeping generalisation to assume someone with money is "corrupt".


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm sorry..... I meant multimillionaires and the very powerful, no way can they have got there without a little corruption on the way.


A couple in the next small town over to us won £75,000,000, +change, on the lottery
That amount makes them multimillionaires
In your view
It also makes them corrupt 
In my view 
It makes them more than a little lucky 
So, sorry 
But
I don't get the correlation


----------



## £54etgfb6

mrs phas said:


> A couple in the next small town over to us won £75,000,000, +change, on the lottery
> That amount makes them multimillionaires
> In your view
> It also makes them corrupt
> In my view
> It makes them more than a little lucky
> So, sorry
> But
> I don't get the correlation


I think HP was referring to business tycoons and those in "official" positions like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, politicians etc. These people have a trail of human rights violations, harsh working conditions, offshore accounts, slavery, betrayal, etc littered throughout their history. It is a generalisation and in no way could someone argue it is 100% correct but I would also think that someone in that position is more likely to be a less than good person than the average Joe. Once again, this is a generalisation however.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I think HP was referring to business tycoons like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, etc. These people have a trail of human rights violations, harsh working conditions, offshore accounts, slavery, betrayal, etc littered throughout their history. It is a generalisation and in no way could someone argue it is 100% correct but I would also think that someone in that position is more likely to be a less than good person than the average Joe. Once again, this is a generalisation however.


I agree, I don't think @Happy Paws2 meant otherwise.

She may have meant Matt Hancock's millionaire mistress and adviser Gina Coladangelo, sister of Roberto Coladangelo (strategy director at Partnering Limited which has received multiple NHS contracts), and hired as an adviser by Hancock on taxpayers money.Or maybe Tory donor Lord Brownlow who donated money that went towards £840 a roll wallpaper spent on the flat reburb. Then there's Paul Walsh who is the millionaire owner of the Compass Group who is a Tory Party donor who provided the school meals of canned beans, bananas and a slice of cheese to school kids apparently worth £30 and _not_ the mililionnaire Marcus Rashford.... Or one of the party's 16 treasurers and 22 donors who were offered peerages since 2010. *Those* millionaires.

But I'm sure she can confirm herself that it's a generalisation  unless HP mixes in high circles when not here! Unfortunately I've yet to get my million so I cannot confirm that I am corrupt in that way - I'll keep trying @mrs phas  I'm sure it's a Euromillions rollover soon.


----------



## mrs phas

bmr10 said:


> I think HP was referring to business tycoons and those in "official" positions like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, politicians etc. These people have a trail of human rights violations, harsh working conditions, offshore accounts, slavery, betrayal, etc littered throughout their history.


I'm sure HP was 
But 
One has to be cautious who one includes when throwing out accusations
To use an ancient saying 
It's like throwing the baby out with the bath water 
Yes theres a lot of dirt around 
But 
When use generalised accusatory remarks 
The good get lumped in with the bad 
It seems almost that people, these days, prefer to look at the bad, however small, however far back in their past
than find the spark of humanity and goodness within them now 
Take my old MP, Tim Yeo. 
Personal morals lower than the belly of a snake 
But 
Worked tirelessly for his constituents
He is/was a conservative, so I would never vote for him in a general election 
Would I have voted for him in a local council election, as the person to do his best for the town?
You bet I would 
I do agree that, as, speaking general, political advancement gets greater, along comes lower personal and moral standards 
But 
I can't agree that all, or even most, political members, of whatever standing, are corrupt or liars 
There's a lot of back benchers and councillors, who work damned hard, for very little, if any, acknowledgements


----------



## £54etgfb6

mrs phas said:


> I'm sure HP was
> But
> One has to be cautious who one includes when throwing out accusations
> To use an ancient saying
> It's like throwing the baby out with the bath water
> Yes theres a lot of dirt around
> But
> When use generalised accusatory remarks
> The good get lumped in with the bad
> It seems almost that people, these days, prefer to look at the bad, however small, however far back in their past
> than find the spark of humanity and goodness within them now
> Take my old MP, Tim Yeo.
> Personal morals lower than the belly of a snake
> But
> Worked tirelessly for his constituents
> He is/was a conservative, so I would never vote for him in a general election
> Would I have voted for him in a local council election, as the person to do his best for the town?
> You bet I would
> I do agree that, as, speaking general, political advancement gets greater, along comes lower personal and moral standards
> But
> I can't agree that all, or even most, political members, of whatever standing, are corrupt or liars
> There's a lot of back benchers and councillors, who work damned hard, for very little, if any, acknowledgements


I agree with you and I do not think that most politicians are corrupt. When I was at college our local MSP wrote to my college to request that a teacher stop bullying me for using the toilet frequently during class (I have IBD). It was my grandparents that went to him about it and I was shocked that an issue with very little gain for him was of such interest that he felt compelled to take action.

I do know that there are extremely rich people who are not awful. I think the reason why people do generalise however is that positions of power often draw in power-hungry people. Having a hunger for power is not a good thing and left unchecked leads to lies, selfishness, betrayal, etc etc. That is how I view the situation. I don't like the English government that's currently in power at all but aside from that I don't look at politicians and automatically think they are bad people just because bad people are drawn to positions of power statistically. Likewise, I don't look at every police man and think they're dangerous just because murdered are drawn to positions of law enforcement. However, in both scenarios I do view this person as being more _likely _to be bad/dangerous respectively.

However, I am a very cynical person and I have very bad trust issues. I wouldn't trust a politician to look out for me the same as I wouldn't trust anyone to look out for me. I can completely appreciate that most people probably do not see the world as doom and gloom as me and while I can't understand it I do recognise it. Perhaps some people seem to only see the bad in things because they have lived a life where they have learnt to be hyper aware of potential danger.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I didn't say MP's I said the cabinet are mostly multimillionaires. I know most MP's are hard working.



bmr10 said:


> I think HP was referring to business tycoons and those in "official" positions like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, politicians etc. These people have a trail of human rights violations, harsh working conditions, offshore accounts, slavery, betrayal, etc littered throughout their history. It is a generalisation and in no way could someone argue it is 100% correct but I would also think that someone in that position is more likely to be a less than good person than the average Joe. Once again, this is a generalisation however.


Those are the sort of people I'm talking about and legs face it, you can't make a fortune without thread a on few toes on the way up.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Happy Paws2

Brilliant... :Hilarioussaw this yesterday on Cat Chat,


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Let face it most of the cabinet are multimillionaires.


I read that Rishi Sunak's father-in-law is one of the richest men in India - Jeremy Hunt supposedly absolutely loaded too after selling a company at some point - though no suggestion of any impropriety . . . it does sometimes looks a if politics is the preserve of the very wealthy. But not everyone who went to a private school (half the Tory cabinet?) has a wealthy background. Many parents do without luxuries to send their child to what they consider the most appropriate school.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> Of course some MPs are from working class backgrounds I believe Angela Raynor is. I quite like her.


She does, I think she would make a good leader for the Labour Party.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I agree with you and I do not think that most politicians are corrupt. When I was at college our local MSP wrote to my college to request that a teacher stop bullying me for using the toilet frequently during class (I have IBD). It was my grandparents that went to him about it and I was shocked that an issue with very little gain for him was of such interest that he felt compelled to take action.
> 
> I do know that there are extremely rich people who are not awful. I think the reason why people do generalise however is that positions of power often draw in power-hungry people. Having a hunger for power is not a good thing and left unchecked leads to lies, selfishness, betrayal, etc etc. That is how I view the situation. I don't like the English government that's currently in power at all but aside from that I don't look at politicians and automatically think they are bad people just because bad people are drawn to positions of power statistically. Likewise, I don't look at every police man and think they're dangerous just because murdered are drawn to positions of law enforcement. However, in both scenarios I do view this person as being more _likely _to be bad/dangerous respectively.
> 
> However, I am a very cynical person and I have very bad trust issues. I wouldn't trust a politician to look out for me the same as I wouldn't trust anyone to look out for me. I can completely appreciate that most people probably do not see the world as doom and gloom as me and while I can't understand it I do recognise it. Perhaps some people seem to only see the bad in things because they have lived a life where they have learnt to be hyper aware of potential danger.


The same.

Our local MP is great, his scorecard (you can get your MP scorecard here https://www.theyworkforyou.com) is what I want it to be and he's been re-elected many times. Even in our city, we know who he is. I may not agree with everything he does, but it matches the manifesto both locally and UK wide for his party.

That's not corruption.

I don't imagine anyone voted in Matt Hancock and thought he'd be handing out PPE to his mates. That is corruption, morally and politically. Though I think the latter wasn't every proved or agreed? I forget. He didn't leave over it, he left because of the snogging and that's hardly the reason to leave. The PPE was the worst crime imo.

I imagine it's a tough job being a politician and whilst I dislike the party in power because of their manifesto which has very little I agree on (and I do review each General Election as I'm not a party for life person), I don't assume corruption but the current state of affairs does make me think again. In my experience, leaders lead by example and lapses in judgement or poor morals and ethics are systemic. At least they are in the couple of ad agencies I've worked at where the owners were ruthless and their teams likewise as they employed people who thought the same. That so few Torys have approached the 1922 committee is more evidence for me.

But then you have the awful murder of Sir David Amess who seemed very well liked and respected. MPs who don't have second jobs like Owen Patterson (whom Johnson backed of course) and give a lot to their constituents. Devon Tory MP Annie Marie Morris whom I mentioned earlier put her community first and was punished. It seems that there is very little room for humanity in this Government, or humility.

It's not the corruption for me, but the attitude that means corruption happens in the first place. It's not the parties so much as the assumption they could celebrate doing the job paid to do, that they were never going to be found out - and I'm specifically referred to the Tory party and their many parties as they made the rules not the opposition parties - and that they have made money from death through PPE and bribery and not once have I heard a genuine apology. I do feel very sorry for the Tory MPs who are honest, I'm sure they have some, and those who voted in good faith. I may not agree with that vote, but I can't imagine how let down people must feel.

Boris shouldn't be leaving over parties, he should be leaving for the collective disaster, imo. We're in danger of being distracted by the parties and to repeat, it's _his_ report, commissioned by him and will be approved by him to appease the opposition parties. If they didn't call for it, I don't imagine there would be one.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Boris shouldn't be leaving over parties,


He wouldn't be leaving over parties though would he, he'd be leaving over the lies since.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> He wouldn't be leaving over parties though would he, he'd be leaving over the lies since.


And the ones before. Brexit was a huge lie (as a Leave voter)


----------



## Pawscrossed

*****I thought this was posted this week, it is dated from 2013******

I wasn't sure where to post this but I had to as it feels like this is another one of those distraction posts but also so incredibly ignorant.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> He wouldn't be leaving over parties though would he, he'd be leaving over the lies since.


I didn't phrase it very clearly. I meant to say 'not just because of'. Thanks for correction


----------



## Lurcherlad

…


Pawscrossed said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this but I had to as it feels like this is another one of those distraction posts but also so incredibly ignorant.
> 
> View attachment 482776


Well, she clearly needs new specs, as they look nothing alike to me.


----------



## mrs phas

Pawscrossed said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this but I had to as it feels like this is another one of those distraction posts but also so incredibly ignorant.
> 
> View attachment 482776


You do realise this is from 2013 don't you 
Whilst I agree it is incredibly ignorant, and lord knows how she's still a MP, let alone a front bencher
It's long before covid was around (if we are to believe it appeared out of nowhere in 2019)
So hardly a distraction post relevant to today


----------



## Pawscrossed

mrs phas said:


> You do realise this is from 2013 don't you
> Whilst I agree it is incredibly ignorant, and lord knows how she's still a MP, let alone a front bencher
> It's long before covid was around (if we are to believe it appeared out of nowhere in 2019)
> So hardly a distraction post relevant to today


Oh goodness! I had no idea it was 2013  I have edited my comment.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Delete - trouble with my phone.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> Oh goodness! I had no idea it was 2013  I have edited my comment.


It's 2019 on the dated reply which aren't easy to read on a mobile screen so it's been doing the rounds for years and prob popped up again because Nadine is distracting everyone by defunding the BBC who provided all that free education for kids during the lockdown.  Now they're bullying CH4 news, and after Beeb so that's most media owned by some fat cat.

It's probably to distract us from the protest about the police bill which has another reading making protest a crime. Or Boris is also distracting us.. it's hard to know what's the worse crime but the policing bill isn't get enough news as it will change so much. Scary stuff.

Twitter is doing great on sharing how marvellous thr Beeb it is - and it is amazing- but ironic how this includes loads of highly paid presenters like Gary Lineker who'll be out of a job if Govt go head in 2027 (assuming the Tory Party wins the next election?!)


----------



## MollySmith

Results of the UCL Citizens Assembly report which addresses all political parties - all about integrity.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-...iticians-act-integrity-says-citizens-assembly


----------



## mrs phas

Pawscrossed said:


> Oh goodness! I had no idea it was 2013  I have edited my comment.


Don't worry, you're not the only one to be caught out, my FB is full of it 
It's probably been highlighted because she's poked her head over the parapet, re the BBC licence fee 'scrapping'


----------



## JANICE199

*I've just seen this. I thought they didn't have any money.  *

*https://bylinetimes.com/2022/01/14/...KbT-xhL6tz7L4cqXsKq13GE8SvhlVoTbXgZDDJYb7nsz0*

Health and Social Care Secretary Sajid Javid has authorised a £1 billion windfall payment to 150 private hospitals without them having to provide a single operation to the NHS.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> Don't worry, you're not the only one to be caught out, my FB is full of it
> It's probably been highlighted because she's poked her head over the parapet, re the BBC licence fee 'scrapping'


This from Susie Dent (who agrees with you @Pawscrossed!)


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *I've just seen this. I thought they didn't have any money.  *
> 
> *https://bylinetimes.com/2022/01/14/...KbT-xhL6tz7L4cqXsKq13GE8SvhlVoTbXgZDDJYb7nsz0*
> 
> Health and Social Care Secretary Sajid Javid has authorised a £1 billion windfall payment to 150 private hospitals without them having to provide a single operation to the NHS.


That's bribery surely - break the NHS by providing no security net for Covid and then push for privatisation with 'evidence' (also see BBC) - edit to add it's not the action so much as the assumption it can be done by Javid. That culture again.

_Quizzing Sir Chris Wormald, Permanent Secretary at the Department for Health and Social Care, Clifton-Brown made his scepticism clear. "I do not have the papers in front of me as they only just emerged this afternoon, but as I understood it from what the chair was asking, the NHS has contracted with the private sector for £75 million a month - that is £1 billion a year - before a single service is even given by the private sector. That sounds like a very expensive insurance policy, doesn't it?" he asked, rhetorically._


----------



## JANICE199

MollySmith said:


> That's bribery surely - break the NHS by providing no security net for Covid and then push for privatisation with 'evidence' (also see BBC)
> 
> _Quizzing Sir Chris Wormald, Permanent Secretary at the Department for Health and Social Care, Clifton-Brown made his scepticism clear. "I do not have the papers in front of me as they only just emerged this afternoon, but as I understood it from what the chair was asking, the NHS has contracted with the private sector for £75 million a month - that is £1 billion a year - before a single service is even given by the private sector. That sounds like a very expensive insurance policy, doesn't it?" he asked, rhetorically._


*The " best" of it isn't the first time it's happened. The private sector were paid millions when the pandemic started. In all of my 72 years i have NEVER known such corruption.*


----------



## Blackadder

Oh dear! Dom seems to be twisting the knife.....

Dominic Cummings

@Dominic2306

Updated blog: PM was told about the invite, he knew it was a drinks party, he lied to Parliament


----------



## MollySmith

Blackadder said:


> Oh dear! Dom seems to be twisting the knife.....
> 
> Dominic Cummings
> 
> @Dominic2306
> 
> Updated blog: PM was told about the invite, he knew it was a drinks party, he lied to Parliament


His substack page is a curious read. He sort of says that Boris either can't give a rats dodah about what anyone thinks of him or does but can't fix it without spinning a yarn, much like Dominic himself! They really are both doing their best to not be employable. I don't think Dominic is doing this because he cares about us all, he'd have turned the tables way back when he had that eye test. And now, it's fairly obvious why he thought he was okay to drive to Barnard Castle!


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> doing their best to not be employable.


 Boris was earning absolute megabucks before being PM and apparently often laments this fact - he took a massive pay cut, apparently. Whether his latest shenanigans will make him more or less employable: who knows? He seems to wriggle out of every unsavoury episode like a greased piglet (he looks a bit like one, too).

What does Boris Johnson get paid? £670,000 less for more hours and more stress | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Arny

Calvine said:


> Boris was earning absolute megabucks before being PM and apparently often laments this fact - he took a massive pay cut, apparently. Whether his latest shenanigans will make him more or less employable: who knows? He seems to wriggle out of every unsavoury episode like a greased piglet (he looks a bit like one, too).
> 
> What does Boris Johnson get paid? £670,000 less for more hours and more stress | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)


They take the job for the money they earn afterwards.
Cameron and Blair get far more money now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Blackadder said:


> Oh dear! Dom seems to be twisting the knife.....
> 
> Dominic Cummings
> 
> @Dominic2306
> 
> Updated blog: *PM was told about the invite, he knew it was a drinks party, he lied to Parliament*


He has lied to Parliament, he was at least at one parties, they do say he was at others, so he should resign.


----------



## Boxer123

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60039868

Our prime minister the man who has access to nuclear codes.

Creates rules but doesn't understand them.
Needs to be told what is a party and what is work.

Is he having a laugh ?


----------



## MollySmith

Mother of God.....

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ty-led-by-donkeys_uk_61e6ba49e4b0c6802eebda2c


----------



## Calvine

Arny said:


> They take the job for the money they earn afterwards.
> Cameron and Blair get far more money now.


The 'after dinner speeches' I understand bring in amazing amounts, even for really boring old farts like Major. And Tony Blair . . . ?
£330,000 for a 20-minute speech at a world hunger event? Tony Blair is an inspiration to us all | The Independent | The Independent
I wouldn't pay a quid to listen to him.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Boris was earning absolute megabucks before being PM and apparently often laments this fact - he took a massive pay cut, apparently. Whether his latest shenanigans will make him more or less employable: who knows? He seems to wriggle out of every unsavoury episode *like a greased piglet (he looks a bit like one, too)*.
> 
> What does Boris Johnson get paid? £670,000 less for more hours and more stress | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)


I'm back to _that_ episode of Black Mirror... :Arghh


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> Mother of God.....
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ty-led-by-donkeys_uk_61e6ba49e4b0c6802eebda2c


Darn you woman!
I just come to share 
Funny, but so true:Hilarious


----------



## willa

Not read the whole thread, so, sorry If i’m repeating what others have said.

I just cannot understand why we have a PM who can’t understand his own rules .

Young children would do better than him


----------



## Blackadder

Boxer123 said:


> Our prime minister the man who has access to nuclear codes.
> 
> Creates rules but doesn't understand them.
> Needs to be told what is a party and what is work.
> 
> Is he having a laugh ?


I watched the full interview (16 mins) & it was embarrassing... he categorically denied being told it was a party & it broke the rules, he was asked if Dom Cummings was therefore lying...he wouldn't answer!

Full interview here...


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> Darn you woman!
> I just come to share
> Funny, but so true:Hilarious


I thought you'd like it! Great minds and all that!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

So it’s beginning at work, the pressure to be vaccinated. I am vaccinated and boosted and wish everyone would be but I STILL don’t understand why healthcare staff have to be vaccinated in order to protect those who won’t be? That seems to be the reasoning. I know there are some who can’t be vaccinated but the vast majority of unvaccinated people I see in my work life (women and partners) are unvaccinated because they choose not to be. I can’t refuse to have them in the building but the trust will soon be able to sack people who’ve not been vaccinated. 

I’ve signed the petition against compulsory vaccination for healthcare staff. There are nearly 170,000 signatures so it’s due to be debated in parliament later this month. 

As I say, and you all know from my posts about wanting pregnant women to be vaccinated, I’m absolutely not anti-Vax but I feel this is wrong.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> Mother of God.....
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ty-led-by-donkeys_uk_61e6ba49e4b0c6802eebda2c


Brilliant 
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

Blackadder said:


> I watched the full interview (16 mins) & it was embarrassing... he categorically denied being told it was a party & it broke the rules, he was asked if Dom Cummings was therefore lying...he wouldn't answer!
> 
> Full interview here...


''Recollections may vary,'' as the Queen would say! Even if ''nobody told me it was against the rules'', he should have had a fair idea; he can't be that thick.


----------



## MollySmith

From Twitter, Kathryn Samson, Scotland Tonight

_One senior Tory has messaged me to say they are hearing there might be a statement from Sir Graham Brady first thing tomorrow morning and that the PM has been told tonight. Not confirmed - but there's a sense of real movement tonight. #DowningStreetParties
_
PMQs could be very entertaining, I may have to get more popcorn. Frankly it's appalling that it's taken the Tory Party Party this long.


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> So it's beginning at work, the pressure to be vaccinated. I am vaccinated and boosted and wish everyone would be but I STILL don't understand why healthcare staff have to be vaccinated in order to protect those who won't be? That seems to be the reasoning. I know there are some who can't be vaccinated but the vast majority of unvaccinated people I see in my work life (women and partners) are unvaccinated because they choose not to be. I can't refuse to have them in the building but the trust will soon be able to sack people who've not been vaccinated.
> 
> I've signed the petition against compulsory vaccination for healthcare staff. There are nearly 170,000 signatures so it's due to be debated in parliament later this month.
> 
> As I say, and you all know from my posts about wanting pregnant women to be vaccinated, I'm absolutely not anti-Vax but I feel this is wrong.


Agree. I have no beef with the vaccine but why vaccinate to protect those who do not, it's not as if the Government don't already have metaphorical blood on their hands already. I'm also a bit undecided on the vaccine passports. I find it odd that Labour are saying not to voter ID but back vaccine passports.... anyway another thread/digression!


----------



## Pawscrossed

Today is getting worse, Bury MP defects to Labour minutes before PMQs. 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/christian-wakeford-tory-mp-labour-b1996178.html

I'm not a massive fan of Starmer but he's a lot better than anything on offer on the other side. Yes, I know we don't vote on people but policies  He is walloping Boris whom I am surprised didn't walk before PMQs. I imagine this day must be bittersweet _and_ cathartic.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://planetradio.co.uk/pulse1/uk...dzKORqB58sV8hNCUHl5P7u7gUTmhMppWzfO69yFyTn4XQ

*Boris Johnson announces easing of Covid restrictions*

The easing of restrictions will take effect from next week


----------



## Mrs Funkin

See. I'm not a royalist but I blooming love the Queen - and this sums up why.










What a woman. The useless man we have in charge of our country should be ashamed of himself and his party members who behaved so atrociously.


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> See. I'm not a royalist but I blooming love the Queen - and this sums up why.
> 
> View attachment 482973
> 
> 
> What a woman. The useless man we have in charge of our country should be ashamed of himself and his party members who behaved so atrociously.


I'm not a royalist but that made me cry.

god what a day. I'm scared about 27 Jan and 24 March when nobody has to self isolate. It's telling that Van Tamm went and I wonder what Whitty and Vallance think. It feels like Boris said all this on a whim to distract us from the parties because he can't continue to keep rules he is culpable of breaking, so there's no trust. Or he's kicked back and sending us off to the unknown. His reply about the Bury MP was to say they would get the seat back under 'this prime minister'.

I'd just like a moment when I can go to a cafe without fear, a gallery or dinner. I just don't think, for us vulnerable, that we've been considered.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I think masks in public enclosed places should stay. I shall carry on with mine for the foreseeable future.

The big rise in cases coincided with widespread Xmas gatherings surely, so there could be another peak.

School pupils can now remove them in class which I think is right, to aid learning. It is difficult to hear and communicate properly with them.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> It feels like Boris said all this on a whim to distract us from the parties because he can't continue to keep rules he is culpable of breaking, so there's no trust. Or he's kicked back and sending us off to the unknown.


I thought he changed the restrictions to increase his popularity, tbh. Nobody likes the restrictions (even if you believe they are beneficial they're still not enjoyable) but many, many people will overlook his... mishaps.. as he has freed them from the jail cell that is (supposedly) mask-wearing. Some people won't be bothered about the parties anyway because they themselves were having parties all throughout the pandemic. The way I see it is that it's a move to gain popularity back from those who are uninformed or simply agree with his actions. He'll be a godsend in some people's eyes now that they have been released from restrictions- covid will officially be over for them.


----------



## JANICE199

bmr10 said:


> I thought he changed the restrictions to increase his popularity, tbh. Nobody likes the restrictions (even if you believe they are beneficial they're still not enjoyable) but many, many people will overlook his... mishaps.. as he has freed them from the jail cell that is (supposedly) mask-wearing. Some people won't be bothered about the parties anyway because they themselves were having parties all throughout the pandemic. The way I see it is that it's a move to gain popularity back from those who are uninformed or simply agree with his actions. He'll be a godsend in some people's eyes now that they have been released from restrictions- covid will officially be over for them.


*My personal opinion of him lifting the restrictions is his way of throwing in the towel, and telling us to sort it out between ourselves.*


----------



## Dimwit

This pretty much sums it up...


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> *My personal opinion of him lifting the restrictions is his way of throwing in the towel, and telling us to sort it out between ourselves.*


Partly that, but I thought it was also to appease the moaners and try to elicit a smidgen of popularity and possibly raise abysmal ratings. As always, he managed to evade the real issue and kept telling anyone who wanted to listen what miracles the Conservatives had performed while in office.


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> I think masks in public enclosed places should stay


 Khan says he still wants them on TFL public transport.


----------



## JANICE199

Calvine said:


> Partly that, but I thought it was also to appease the moaners and try to elicit a smidgen of popularity and possibly raise abysmal ratings. As always, he managed to evade the real issue and kept telling anyone who wanted to listen what miracles the Conservatives had performed while in office.


*Time for the " captain " to leave his sinking ship, i think.*


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *Time for the " captain " to leave his sinking ship, i think.*


Well yes but... .also the culture. This isn't, I don't think entirely Boris though every leader is said to create the culture but with the outbreak of the black mail story today, it's not going away.

But, it's the huge risk. I think that's what really upset me and made me angry yesterday about all this. It's throwing the vulnerable and those who have been isolating into the fire with absolutely no regard to mental health. I've had five people contact me today (I'm a mental health first aid responder) - I get that much in a month during the pandemic - needing support over their mental health and at the heart of each one was the news yesterday.

The culture and the outcome of the last election and the actions of our government have become somewhat of a battle for survival for many. Brexit caused a lot of problems with poverty, the pandemic made that worse and the cuts to universal credit, but many could empathise but may not experience it. Covid brings this to all our doors.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I thought he changed the restrictions to increase his popularity, tbh. Nobody likes the restrictions (even if you believe they are beneficial they're still not enjoyable) but many, many people will overlook his... mishaps.. as he has freed them from the jail cell that is (supposedly) mask-wearing. Some people won't be bothered about the parties anyway because they themselves were having parties all throughout the pandemic. The way I see it is that it's a move to gain popularity back from those who are uninformed or simply agree with his actions. He'll be a godsend in some people's eyes now that they have been released from restrictions- covid will officially be over for them.


Yes, true. Either way it's not to benefit the public whom he's meant to have in mind. It's all about saving his backside.

He is vermin. I can't think of any words beyond that.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Yes, true. Either way it's not to benefit the public whom he's meant to have in mind. It's all about saving his backside.
> 
> He is vermin. I can't think of any words beyond that.


I frequently have to remind myself that the world that *I* live in is not the world that most people do, least of all politicians. The risk a simple infection (out with covid) poses to me is not something these people have to consider.

Of course, in your previous post it is possible that people can empathise without having experienced something themselves. I think Boris elects not to do this. I think those in power, generally, elect not to do this. If something does not benefit them then it isn't of genuine importance. Poor people become poorer, people become sicker, benefits are cut, etc etc. It is always the vulnerable that suffer when really, they make up the majority of the population and therefore should be the priority.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I frequently have to remind myself that the world that *I* live in is not the world that most people do, least of all politicians. The risk a simple infection (out with covid) poses to me is not something these people have to consider.
> 
> Of course, in your previous post it is possible that people can empathise without having experienced something themselves. I think Boris elects not to do this. I think those in power, generally, elect not to do this. If something does not benefit them then it isn't of genuine importance. Poor people become poorer, people become sicker, benefits are cut, etc etc. It is always the vulnerable that suffer when really, they make up the majority of the population and therefore should be the priority.


Survival of the richest. 

Thank you for a well worded and sensitive reply.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bojo staying put is the best chance Labour will get…

I think that it is far too early to lift restrictions with over 100 k new cases daily!!!

At least let the wave pass!!!
Morons.


----------



## StormyThai

Personally I'm still struggling to understand why it is so hard for the muppets in parliament to understand (maybe they do, but don't care... it's only us vulnerable to complications that need to worry after all) that it is better to reduce (stop) restrictions so that people can start to get back to normal but still keep masks inside busy areas... and then consider dropping mask wearing once we see what happens.... but no, let's just drop everything at once!

I will continue to wear my mask for the foreseeable around crowded areas and will go back to avoiding large crowds and shopping at rediculous times.


----------



## Magyarmum

StormyThai said:


> Personally I'm still struggling to understand why it is so hard for the muppets in parliament to understand (maybe they do, but don't care... it's only us vulnerable to complications that need to worry after all) that it is better to reduce (stop) restrictions so that people can start to get back to normal but still keep masks inside busy areas... and then consider dropping mask wearing once we see what happens.... but no, let's just drop everything at once!
> 
> I will continue to wear my mask for the foreseeable around crowded areas and will go back to avoiding large crowds and shopping at rediculous times.


I honestly don't know what the UK government is thinking!. Like the rest of Europe the new infection rate in Hungary is rocketing but despite that life is back to fairly normal. The big difference is that it's mandatory here to wear a mask virtually everywhere which most people seem to be able to do without much difficulty.

It's not ideal but it does give one a certain measure of security knowing that when you're in the supermarket or coffee shop, like you, everyone else is "masked up".

https://visithungary.com/articles/general-regulations


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well Boris is thinking it’s his only chance to not get booted out, I suspect. 

Welsh first minister Mark Drakeford is publicly querying why “the science has been abandoned”. I must confess I’ve been very impressed with him, his team and how they’ve kept Wales’ population so safe compared to England.


----------



## MollySmith

Well this is extraordinary! I don't know what to make of Rory Stewart being so brutal but I have never seen stuff like this. Thatcher was determined not to go but the majority of it was played in private, this is dirty laundry in public.


----------



## MollySmith

StormyThai said:


> Personally I'm still struggling to understand why it is so hard for the muppets in parliament to understand (maybe they do, but don't care... it's only us vulnerable to complications that need to worry after all) that it is better to reduce (stop) restrictions so that people can start to get back to normal but still keep masks inside busy areas... and then consider dropping mask wearing once we see what happens.... but no, let's just drop everything at once!
> 
> I will continue to wear my mask for the foreseeable around crowded areas and will go back to avoiding large crowds and shopping at rediculous times.


Me too. 7am at the mini market with my mask *sigh*


----------



## Lurcherlad

MollySmith said:


> Well this is extraordinary! I don't know what to make of Rory Stewart being so brutal but I have never seen stuff like this. Thatcher was determined not to go but the majority of it was played in private, this is dirty laundry in public.
> 
> View attachment 483052


Tbf his party chose their leader.

I didn't vote Tory in the last election btw


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> Well this is extraordinary! I don't know what to make of Rory Stewart being so brutal but I have never seen stuff like this. Thatcher was determined not to go but the majority of it was played in private, this is dirty laundry in public.
> 
> View attachment 483052


I rather like Rory Stewart. A very capable man. He's long had aspirations to be PM.


----------



## MilleD

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well Boris is thinking it's his only chance to not get booted out, I suspect.
> 
> Welsh first minister Mark Drakeford is publicly querying why "the science has been abandoned". I must confess I've been very impressed with him, his team and how they've kept Wales' population so safe compared to England.


Although his full words were kept Wales safe and "open".

There's a fair few Welsh people who would disagree with that last bit.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

MilleD said:


> Although his full words were kept Wales safe and "open".
> 
> There's a fair few Welsh people who would disagree with that last bit.


Hmmm, yes I don't think Wales has been overly "open" but I do think folk in Wales have been safer than those of us in England (certainly from the conversations I've had with friends who live in Wales).


----------



## MollySmith

Lurcherlad said:


> Tbf his party chose their leader.
> 
> I didn't vote Tory in the last election btw


Oh of course, I thought he was independent but yes he was Tory and wasn't he in the leadership race?


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> Oh of course, I thought he was independent but yes he was Tory and wasn't he in the leadership race?


He stood as a candidate for Leader of the Tory Party and Prime Minister in the 2019 leadership contest. He was knocked out in the 3rd round.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48696619


----------



## StormyThai

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60072080

Pretty much 
Now I know why I received a PCR test, back to being a hermit I go -sigh-


----------



## £54etgfb6

StormyThai said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60072080
> 
> Pretty much
> Now I know why I received a PCR test, back to being a hermit I go -sigh-


It is horrible. "Omicron has less severe effects" in *general? * And what about vulnerable people who could not be vaccinated due to health reasons? Do we expect them to lock themselves away? Or those who simply chose not to be vaccinated? Due to fear, pressure, lack of education, etc. Regardless, for those of us chronically ill or with disabilities being unwell hits us harder because our baseline is not the same as everyone else's.

For those in a caring position this removal of restrictions and guidelines will put them and those they care for at risk. Sickness, even mild, can have a serious effect on some peoples lives.

We are expected to stay off work/school when unwell from any acute contagious condition such as tonsillitis, stomach bug, etc. I know this is not always possible but it *is* the expected ideal. Why is covid different?

They have returned to their herd immunity tactic, which they fiended for back in spring 2020. They have had 2 years to think about the devastating effects this move could have and they have either acknowledged it and don't care or they have sat on their backsides and looked the other way.

Edit: Some people may think this is dramatic but I am very sick and tired of living in a world that does not acknowledge people with ill health unless forced to. We all become ill eventually.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-60100369

Crikey. NZ have been fully "on it" regarding lockdowns. I wonder what they think of our numbers.

Had a message from a friend in the States yesterday (she was due to come over last Spring but obviously couldn't), she is now planning to come in August but it sounds so frightening. She lives in the 6th worst State for vaccination levels and says the cases are crazy.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Mrs Funkin said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-60100369
> 
> Crikey. NZ have been fully "on it" regarding lockdowns. I wonder what they think of our numbers.
> 
> Had a message from a friend in the States yesterday (she was due to come over last Spring but obviously couldn't), she is now planning to come in August but it sounds so frightening. She lives in the 6th worst State for vaccination levels and says the cases are crazy.


What a responsible prime minister. This should really be the bare minimum and yet I am genuinely shocked. Good on her.


----------



## Siskin

Mrs Funkin said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-60100369
> 
> Crikey. NZ have been fully "on it" regarding lockdowns. I wonder what they think of our numbers.
> 
> Had a message from a friend in the States yesterday (she was due to come over last Spring but obviously couldn't), she is now planning to come in August but it sounds so frightening. She lives in the 6th worst State for vaccination levels and says the cases are crazy.


The trouble is that when NZ and Western Australia open their borders again which they will have to do eventually they will have a huge amount of omicron cases as everyone else is. They are well vaccinated countries so shouldn't fair too badly, it's those countries who are unvaccinated who could be in serious trouble.
You can't lockdown countries forever, it would be an economic death sentence.


----------



## ForestWomble

bmr10 said:


> What a responsible prime minister. This should really be the bare minimum and yet I am genuinely shocked. Good on her.


Fully agree. NZ prime minister is an excellent example of being responsible, good for her.



Siskin said:


> *The trouble is that when NZ and Western Australia open their borders again which they will have to do eventually they will have a huge amount of omicron cases as everyone else is.* They are well vaccinated countries so shouldn't fair too badly, it's those countries who are unvaccinated who could be in serious trouble.
> You can't lockdown countries forever, it would be an economic death sentence.


Not necessarily. I have no idea how much longer they can keep their borders closed, but I like to think they will be able to keep numbers low even when they open up again, I imagine entry into these places will be quite strict with quarantining and taking tests etc, before being free to be let loose into the country.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Siskin said:


> The trouble is that when NZ and Western Australia open their borders again which they will have to do eventually they will have a huge amount of omicron cases as everyone else is. They are well vaccinated countries so shouldn't fair too badly, it's those countries who are unvaccinated who could be in serious trouble.
> You can't lockdown countries forever, it would be an economic death sentence.


I would assume they are opening borders again to foreigners in April because the prevalent variant of covid is currently less severe than past ones. I think they've played it out well by waiting until severity is lower. They will have to open borders eventually and doing so will cause a lot of people to become unwell, miss work, use health services, etc but with omicron these negative effects _will_ be less severe than they previously would have been.

As more and more people around the rest of the world catch Omicron they will be less likely to become infected again due to recent infection. Perhaps NZ is waiting for most of their tourists to have a lesser risk of infection. They will no doubt have strict testing and isolation measures in place for anyone travelling into the country too.


----------



## CollieSlave

MilleD said:


> Although his full words were kept Wales safe and "open".
> 
> There's a fair few Welsh people who would disagree with that last bit.


That may be so, BUT a perusal of the covid distribution map suggests that cases per 100,000 in Wales are far less than in England, perhaps thanks to Drakeford's measures!
Have a look at the distribution map - scroll down on this website 
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/


----------



## grumpy goby

ForestWomble said:


> Fully agree. NZ prime minister is an excellent example of being responsible, good for her.
> 
> Not necessarily. I have no idea how much longer they can keep their borders closed, but I like to think they will be able to keep numbers low even when they open up again, I imagine entry into these places will be quite strict with quarantining and taking tests etc, before being free to be let loose into the country.


The plan currently is to open to Australia next month I think, then the rest of the world slowly depending on country as far as I know.
Omicron is here now, masks are a way of life in Auckland (can't speak for the rest of the countries compliance level.. haven't visited recently!) and the use of the vacc pass.
I think they are hoping that a slower controlled spread of omicron will help us get into a better position when those borders open (which is imminent), and encourage boosters (been slower than they hoped I think at about 60% eligible booster take up).

It's important to note that this is not a lockdown, it's hardly much different realistically to day to day life… just more masks, more vacc pass usage and number caps indoors. I went to bars and restaurants yesterday in Auckland under this level. Previously it would have been a total closure of those places.

masks on public transport has been a constant for the last year or so, even when we had zero cases. In general it has felt safe.

People do find the drop in restrictions alarming, but right now I think they are just bracing for our own surge (they are speaking 2k a day expected) - I have no idea how the health system will cope… hopefully there isn't a big strain on it!


----------



## MollySmith

Party on 19/6/20, my parents golden wedding. We ‘celebrated’ online and my deaf mum could not hear us very well on Zoom. I had a self indulgent cry this evening as the unfairness. I’m lucky to have my parents but I remember all of us struggling to help mum.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Party on 19/6/20, my parents golden wedding. We 'celebrated' online and my deaf mum could not hear us very well on Zoom. I had a self indulgent cry this evening as the unfairness. I'm lucky to have my parents but I remember all of us struggling to help mum.


I am so sorry to hear this.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> Party on 19/6/20, my parents golden wedding. We 'celebrated' online and my deaf mum could not hear us very well on Zoom. I had a self indulgent cry this evening as the unfairness. I'm lucky to have my parents but I remember all of us struggling to help mum.


I refuse to give in and feel sorry for myself. I haven't seen my son and DIL since May 2019 due to Covid and the lockdown. The last member of my family I saw was my granddaughter who spent Christmas 2019 with me.

Fortunately I'm a fit and healthy 82 year old, and being a stubborn old git am determined to outlive the virus. I reckon if I've lasted this far and coped with all the "sticks and arrows" of life that have been thrown at me along the way then I can cope with this..


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I haven't seen my son and DIL since May 2019 due to Covid and the lockdown. The last member of my family I saw was my granddaughter who spent Christmas 2019 with me


I remember back then when we were told, ''Three weeks of lockdown and it will all be over'' . . . yeah, right!


----------



## Siskin

Magyarmum said:


> I refuse to give in and feel sorry for myself. I haven't seen my son and DIL since May 2019 due to Covid and the lockdown. The last member of my family I saw was my granddaughter who spent Christmas 2019 with me.
> 
> Fortunately I'm a fit and healthy 82 year old, and being a stubborn old git am determined to outlive the virus. I reckon if I've lasted this far and coped with all the "sticks and arrows" of life that have been thrown at me along the way then I can cope with this..


I feel the same way. Had an awful two years with medical issues on top of lockdown, but I refuse to let it get me down and sit in a great sobbing heap however tempting. 
There are many others worse off then me, I count myself one of the lucky ones health wise as my cancer was dealt with despite Covid and I've had a tough wont take no for an answer surgeon looking after my broken femur.
I may be 70 with a cancer history, but I'm not beaten yet


----------



## Arny

Magyarmum said:


> I refuse to give in and feel sorry for myself. I haven't seen my son and DIL since May 2019 due to Covid and the lockdown. The last member of my family I saw was my granddaughter who spent Christmas 2019 with me.
> 
> Fortunately I'm a fit and healthy 82 year old, and being a stubborn old git am determined to outlive the virus. I reckon if I've lasted this far and coped with all the "sticks and arrows" of life that have been thrown at me along the way then I can cope with this..


I do think in some ways its easier for those of us that aren't close, in terms of proximity, to family. 
We're used to not seeing them for months/years and so its nothing new. Those that see family every week probably found lockdown much harder.


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I am so sorry to hear this.


thank you. Your reply is much appreciated.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> I refuse to give in and feel sorry for myself. I haven't seen my son and DIL since May 2019 due to Covid and the lockdown. The last member of my family I saw was my granddaughter who spent Christmas 2019 with me.
> 
> Fortunately I'm a fit and healthy 82 year old, and being a stubborn old git am determined to outlive the virus. I reckon if I've lasted this far and coped with all the "sticks and arrows" of life that have been thrown at me along the way then I can cope with this..


I am angry at them, not feeling sorry for myself.

i am pleased you've found ways to manage, and @Siskin too. Good for you both

But I feel I have to add that a bad mental health day doesn't make anyone less of a person and that's how I felt a bit to be honest reading your replies. I've been through life too. But largely estranged from my wider family due to Covid at a point where we were making small steps to healing, now forgotten so I'm even more isolated .

I do not think that was your intentions at all based on what I know and admire of you both, but I did find it hard to read and I'd say I'm mostly level headed and experienced in mental health work. Yesterday was a crap day, another death in my circle of friends and other private stuff and then the government being snotty rags (the polite version!)


----------



## MollySmith

Anyway love to those who are struggling and those who are not. We're all a diverse bunch aren't we?

Here's something funny and probably not entirely unexpected


----------



## ForestWomble

*Hugs* @MollySmith

As you say a bad mental health day does not make someone any less of a person, but I would like to add to anyone that needs this, that a bad mental health day, week, month, year ........ whatever the length of time, does not make you weak or anything like that, in fact, being able to get through the seconds, minutes, hours, day, the week etc makes us stronger because we have fought through it, even if you feel you haven't, just letting yourself have that cry, or just spending a day in bed, you've still made it through that time to hopefully have a better tomorrow. (figurative you, not meaning anyone in particular).

I've been needing to remind myself of things like that as I've found this winter the hardest of the pandemic so far, we aren't in a nation wide lockdown, but my parents and I are in our own lockdown as there isn't a safe way for us to meet up at the moment (last saw them end of November, so hasn't been that long really, but it feels long), I miss them terribly and my anxiety is the worst it has been since having Bungo in my life (not due to our lockdown, just due to the Govs. decisions), but I'm trying to remind myself that it won't be much longer before the weather warms up enough to have the windows open inside again and we can see each other again.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> thank you. Your reply is much appreciated.


It's okay I could relate a lot to your post. I missed my birthday, christmas, and both my grandparents birthdays in 2020. They didn't understand that I didn't feel comfortable visiting them (even though I rarely left the house apart from to go to the library). I felt very guilty having to explain why I couldn't share their birthdays or christmas with them. They raised me and before covid I saw them 3-4 times a week. They are both very very unwell and approaching 80. I do a few tasks for them when I am over like changing their bedding or putting clothes and towels away into the cupboards and I worried that during the pandemic they'd die or they'd force themselves to do these things and make themselves unwell. I shouldn't need to have these conversations with myself while a bunch of rich, unprofessional fools live in their glass bowls far-detached from reality having parties. I mean, imagine being admitted to A&E with covid, using up NHS services, and then attending multiple, illegal parties????  Does a sense of mortality OR morality exist for these people?


----------



## Cleo38

MollySmith said:


> I am angry at them, not feeling sorry for myself.


I don't think anyone should feel bad if they do 'feel sorry for themselves', we can't always have strong days 

I often feel down about things that have happened in the past with my mum, I am full of regrets & have days when I am consumed by it all especially when hearing about the socials happening at No. 10.

So sorry @MollySmith, hope you can see your mum & dad soon. It's so difficult some days


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> I am angry at them, not feeling sorry for myself.
> 
> i am pleased you've found ways to manage, and @Siskin too. Good for you both
> 
> But I feel I have to add that a bad mental health day doesn't make anyone less of a person and that's how I felt a bit to be honest reading your replies. I've been through life too. But largely estranged from my wider family due to Covid at a point where we were making small steps to healing, now forgotten so I'm even more isolated .
> 
> I do not think that was your intentions at all based on what I know and admire of you both, but I did find it hard to read and I'd say I'm mostly level headed and experienced in mental health work. Yesterday was a crap day, another death in my circle of friends and other private stuff and then the government being snotty rags (the polite version!)


It wasn't intended to demean you in any way, and I'm sorry you took it the wrong way. I was speaking about myself and how I refuse to feel upset about not having seen my family for so long. It was written from the perspective of an elderly woman who is acutely aware that at 82 she might die before she gets to see her family again.

A sobering and rather unpleasant thought and one I refuse to indulge myself in.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> It wasn't intended to demean you in any way, and I'm sorry you took it the wrong way. I was speaking about myself and how I refuse to feel upset about not having seen my family for so long. It was written from the perspective of an elderly woman who is acutely aware that at 82 she might die before she gets to see her family again.
> 
> A sobering and rather unpleasant thought and one I refuse to indulge myself in.


 I honestly didn't think your post was demeaning or aimed at anyone in particular and you were simply relating your own situation, your attitude to it and how you manage to cope; I ''liked it'' because you described yourself as a ''stubborn old git'' which made me laugh. But one thing I can say - so many people I know have said: ''I'd have gone mad during lockdown if it hadn't been for my cat, my dog - or whatever''.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Calvine said:


> I honestly didn't think your post was demeaning or aimed at anyone in particular and you were simply relating your own situation, your attitude to it and how you manage to cope; I ''liked it'' because you described yourself as a ''stubborn old git'' which made me laugh. But one thing I can say - so many people I know have said: ''I'd have gone mad during lockdown if it hadn't been for my cat, my dog - or whatever''.


It is often the tone of things and I think @MollySmith 's reply was incredibly honest and open, having often looked at replies on here and wondered if it were a competition, not merely the replies but the likes which appear cliquey. A dose of empathy to everyone goes an awful long way. Or as my late mum said, if one has nothing kind to say; say nothing. It is difficult times for us all, age or family notwithstanding.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> It wasn't intended to demean you in any way, and I'm sorry you took it the wrong way. I was speaking about myself and how I refuse to feel upset about not having seen my family for so long. It was written from the perspective of an elderly woman who is acutely aware that at 82 she might die before she gets to see her family again.
> 
> A sobering and rather unpleasant thought and one I refuse to indulge myself in.


Thank you and hugs to you x


----------



## Boxer123

I watched an interesting discussion on the effects of Covid and MH. 

We have all been through a collective trauma not one person hasn’t been effected. Our bodies have gone into fight or flight and shouldn’t be in that state for as long as we have. I have had days where I thought I’m doing ok and others where I’ve sat and sobbed. 

It’s ok to not be ok. Big hugs to everyone who has shared there experiences. 

Now onto the government we should be angry. I followed the rules partly because I am the sort of person who does and partly because I was scared. I was scared of contracting the virus and speeding it to others. Even when restrictions relaxed I haven’t socialised a great deal. 

Then we see the government partying all the way through. We’re they not worried about the virus ? Passing it on to more vulnerable people? Clearly not. It feeds directly into conspiracy theories,
Rather than being cross with anti vaxers look at the leadership. 

I am shocked this man is still in power. War is looming and we are wasting energy on BJs birthday party. Imagine what the history books will say about this time.


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> Now onto the government we should be angry


I can see why people are unbelievably angry; they've really had us all for prize mugs. Totally and absolutely, I see that. But as far as I am concerned, anger, for me, is such a very negative emotion which does not help anything and certainly does not make me feel any better about the situation or myself. I far prefer to receive a few hysterically funny WhatsApps a day showing BJ as a totally comedic character (and the rest of them) and have a good laugh at them all. If I got angry and gave it all the serious thought it merits, I'd never sleep and my blood pressure would be sky high. I try also not to hate anyone as that does me no good either. But, of course, we all react differently and that is fine.


----------



## Boxer123

Calvine said:


> I can see why people are unbelievably angry; they've really had us all for prize mugs. Totally and absolutely, I see that. But as far as I am concerned, anger, for me, is such a very negative emotion which does not help anything and certainly does not make me feel any better about the situation or myself. I far prefer to receive a few hysterically funny WhatsApps a day showing BJ as a totally comedic character (and the rest of them) and have a good laugh at them all. If I got angry and gave it all the serious thought it merits, I'd never sleep and my blood pressure would be sky high. I try also not to hate anyone as that does me no good either. But, of course, we all react differently and that is fine.


A good point however I do hope people remember this come the next election. And I can't disagree he has given memes and comedians enough rich material to last another 2 years.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Boxer123 said:


> A good point however I do hope people remember this come the next election. And I can't disagree he has given memes and comedians enough rich material to last another 2 years.


Monster Raving Loonies look like the best bet tbh


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> I can see why people are unbelievably angry; they've really had us all for prize mugs. Totally and absolutely, I see that. But as far as I am concerned, anger, for me, is such a very negative emotion which does not help anything and certainly does not make me feel any better about the situation or myself. I far prefer to receive a few hysterically funny WhatsApps a day showing BJ as a totally comedic character (and the rest of them) and have a good laugh at them all. If I got angry and gave it all the serious thought it merits, I'd never sleep and my blood pressure would be sky high. I try also not to hate anyone as that does me no good either. But, of course, we all react differently and that is fine.


I think there is a balance to be struck and I think it is very true that absorbing yourself in anger 24/7 would lead to burnout. It's healthy to avoid the news and interact with certain people who provoke these emotions in us sometimes as it would be a detriment to our own mental health. At times I struggle to let things go that I really have no control over such as a news article about someone being murdered or some form of injustice (in my eyes). Your perspective is interesting and I wish I had a bit more of that in me!


----------



## Boxer123

Lurcherlad said:


> Monster Raving Loonies look like the best bet tbh


I'm not sure even they could party as much as the tories  tires me out just thinking about socialising that much.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Boxer123 said:


> I'm not sure even they could party as much as the tories  tires me out just thinking about socialising that much.


Johnson will no doubt come out of this smelling like roses because no crap ever sticks to him, he doesn't have a huge majority though, personally I mean not mps in parliament, so at next election all the fun candidates, Lord Buckethead etc need to get together and feild a candidate for the ' let's all have a party' party. Reckon they would do well!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Boxer123 said:


> I'm not sure even they could party as much as the tories  tires me out just thinking about socialising that much.


I bet the local M&S has seen their sales sky rocket though, all that party food, cheese and wine flowing into Downing Street!


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> no crap ever sticks to him


No, he never seems to be held accountable for f*** all, does he! And he looks as though he genuinely believes the lies he tells (but then most of them do).


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Anyway love to those who are struggling and those who are not. We're all a diverse bunch aren't we?
> 
> Here's something funny and probably not entirely unexpected
> 
> View attachment 483259


Astonishing collaboration between Cressida and Boris.


----------



## Pawscrossed

3dogs2cats said:


> I bet the local M&S has seen their sales sky rocket though, all that party food, cheese and wine flowing into Downing Street!


It's not just M&S food, it's Downing Street party food....


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boxer123 said:


> I watched an interesting discussion on the effects of Covid and MH.
> 
> We have all been through a collective trauma not one person hasn't been effected. Our bodies have gone into fight or flight and shouldn't be in that state for as long as we have. I have had days where I thought I'm doing ok and others where I've sat and sobbed.
> 
> It's ok to not be ok. Big hugs to everyone who has shared there experiences.
> 
> Now onto the government we should be angry. I followed the rules partly because I am the sort of person who does and partly because I was scared. I was scared of contracting the virus and speeding it to others. Even when restrictions relaxed I haven't socialised a great deal.
> 
> Then we see the government partying all the way through. We're they not worried about the virus ? Passing it on to more vulnerable people? Clearly not. It feeds directly into conspiracy theories,
> Rather than being cross with anti vaxers look at the leadership.
> 
> I am shocked this man is still in power. War is looming and we are wasting energy on BJs birthday party. Imagine what the history books will say about this time.


I am very sorry you've had tough days, me too. No reason but the general frustration of it all and I can't say I care much about what little family have left. I'm worried about being ill too, though vaccinated as it's mostly just me here.

I can't recall a time when a Government in this country was under investigation by the police (however timely the circumstances) and remained in power. Surely that's a call for a General Election? A rhetorical question, I can't imagine anyone knows the answer!


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> I am very sorry you've had tough days, me too. No reason but the general frustration of it all and I can't say I care much about what little family have left. I'm worried about being ill too, though vaccinated as it's mostly just me here.
> 
> I can't recall a time when a Government in this country was under investigation by the police (however timely the circumstances) and remained in power. Surely that's a call for a General Election? A rhetorical question, I can't imagine anyone knows the answer!


I know it seems unreal he's had to apologise the queen and is being investigated by the police. It seems unreal.

Luckily I have boxers who have helped me through the difficult times.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boxer123 said:


> I know it seems unreal he's had to apologise the queen and is being investigated by the police. It seems unreal.
> 
> Luckily I have boxers who have helped me through the difficult times.


It does seem incredible. I have been watching a thread on Twitter by Joe Politics who have shared an enlightening film by Ian Hislop and Private Eye educating MPs on transparency over select committees using their own committee as an example. We do a good job of claiming corruption in other countries including the EU when it's rife here. It is here if anybody would like to watch. I could watch Ian Hislop tie politicians in verbal knots for hours.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486042072117354497
I love your profile photo, I love a boxer!


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> I can see why people are unbelievably angry; they've really had us all for prize mugs. Totally and absolutely, I see that. But as far as I am concerned, anger, for me, is such a very negative emotion which does not help anything and certainly does not make me feel any better about the situation or myself. I far prefer to receive a few hysterically funny WhatsApps a day showing BJ as a totally comedic character (and the rest of them) and have a good laugh at them all. If I got angry and gave it all the serious thought it merits, I'd never sleep and my blood pressure would be sky high. I try also not to hate anyone as that does me no good either. But, of course, we all react differently and that is fine.


I admire your approach. In Buddhism they call anger unskillful. I try to follow that as much but feel a bit pants when I get cross!



bmr10 said:


> I think there is a balance to be struck and I think it is very true that absorbing yourself in anger 24/7 would lead to burnout. It's healthy to avoid the news and interact with certain people who provoke these emotions in us sometimes as it would be a detriment to our own mental health. At times I struggle to let things go that I really have no control over such as a news article about someone being murdered or some form of injustice (in my eyes). Your perspective is interesting and I wish I had a bit more of that in me!


Me too. There is a thing about the zone of control and I refer to it - a lot these days! We can control our responses to situations that drive us mad even if we can't control the situation itself but it is testing my patience!

There was a good meditation on Calm about meditating when angry, I may find it!


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> I admire your approach. In Buddhism they call anger unskillful. I try to follow that as much but feel a bit pants when I get cross!
> 
> Me too. There is a thing about the zone of control and I refer to it - a lot these days! We can control our responses to situations that drive us mad even if we can't control the situation itself but it is testing my patience!
> 
> There was a good meditation on Calm about meditating when angry, I may find it!


I feel there are different nuances to anger, personally. Feeling angry about something but having a boundary in regards to how emotional it makes you feel or how much space it takes up in your life is okay, in my opinion. I think having that control can be a good thing. Anger fuels a lot of my decisions in life. People suffering makes me angry, people being being embarrassed about their health conditions makes me angry. These are two of the motivators making me pursue medicine. Politically, favouritism of the privileged angers me and this is what keeps me from giving up with voting. My determination in a lot of situations stems from feeling anger at the current situation or possible consequences of not taking action. Stopping this anger from overcoming me takes control as you say but it definitely is difficult at times!


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> Monster Raving Loonies look like the best bet tbh


count binface got my vote out of these two, 










At the moment I'm more worried about the situation in Ukraine.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> At the moment I'm more worried about the situation in Ukraine.


Yep, these silly party issues could pale into insignificance once war starts, and they are certainly doing a lot of posturing


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> because no crap ever sticks to him,


You know, in that respect he reminds me of the Donald; and interestingly they both have hair like something out of _The Midwich Cuckoos_. They most probably communicate telepathically like the ones in the book. According to DM (the thinking man's Bible) - so believe it or not - there is a real chance that Boris will be interviewed _under caution_ by the police so I look forward to a few more WhatsApps. How long before BJ's name is mentioned in the Maxwell case! Certainly this has kicked Prince Andrew off the front pages.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> Johnson will no doubt come out of this smelling like roses because no crap ever sticks to him,


Same as Teflon Tony Bliar !


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I feel there are different nuances to anger, personally. Feeling angry about something but having a boundary in regards to how emotional it makes you feel or how much space it takes up in your life is okay, in my opinion. I think having that control can be a good thing. Anger fuels a lot of my decisions in life. People suffering makes me angry, people being being embarrassed about their health conditions makes me angry. These are two of the motivators making me pursue medicine. Politically, favouritism of the privileged angers me and this is what keeps me from giving up with voting. My determination in a lot of situations stems from feeling anger at the current situation or possible consequences of not taking action. Stopping this anger from overcoming me takes control as you say but it definitely is difficult at times!


That makes sense. Keeping the boundaries so it doesn't overtake is very good concept. Good anger can fuel protest and empowerment. Medicine is very lucky to have you.

I was comparing my mental health to being elastic in a chat with a counsellor friend. That before several crises - one where I was suicidal - the elasticity stretched and it won't go back to its old shape. IVF failure changed me but the mental health impact was the bigger wallop as between the whammy, it's impossible to snap back!


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Same as Teflon Tony Bliar !


I feel Boris the Cake Ambusher has exceeded any other politician for stupidity, ignorance, disrespect and utter disregard for anyone outside his very big social bubble, although this survey from June 2021 says May was Britain's worst PM.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> I feel Boris the Cake Ambusher has exceeded any other politician for stupidity, ignorance, disrespect and utter disregard for anyone outside his very big social bubble, although this survey from June 2021 says May was Britain's worst PM.
> 
> View attachment 483310


I note that Maggie was classed as one if the best


----------



## MollySmith

If anyone was eagerly waiting to be hit with a Dorset knob and watch Boris get turned over by an apple pastry, not today. Parliament has adjourned so he survives another day.


----------



## Blackadder

Yet more....



> Whistleblower emails have raised further questions over Boris Johnson's insistence that he did not intervene to assist animal charities during the evacuation of Afghanistan.
> 
> Last December the *prime minister* dismissed claims made by a former Foreign Office official that the government prioritised animals over people *as "complete nonsense"*.
> 
> But new emails released by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, which is conducting an inquiry into the government's handling of the *Afghanistan* crisis, suggest Mr Johnson did personally authorise rescue efforts for pets and animals.


https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...nistan-foreign-office-emails-suggest-12525830

Prompts the old joke...
How can you tell Boris is lying?
His lips are moving.

Edit: This tweet made me laugh....

No dogs were evacuated. I didn't evacuate any dogs. I did evacuate some dogs but I didn't know they were dogs.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> I note that Maggie was classed as one if the best


_Successful _at implementing her policies. She was certainly best at dividing a country. Like Johnson. She believed her own hubris. Like Johnson. My step kids thought she was the head of state  She also liked to think that too.


----------



## Pawscrossed

kimthecat said:


> count binface got my vote out of these two,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the moment I'm more worried about the situation in Ukraine.





rona said:


> Yep, these silly party issues could pale into insignificance once war starts, and they are certainly doing a lot of posturing


Compounded by a PM who lies and was hardly a success as Foreign Secretary. I imagine he's still looking at his father's map of the world wondering where Ukraine is. Plotting how to escalate this political situation so he can use it as a distraction from his government's indirect murder of millions of innocent people by failing to act according to the law that was set out by those who broke it.

I also vote Count Binface. He is wearing a mask.


----------



## catz4m8z

rona said:


> Yep, these silly party issues could pale into insignificance once war starts, and they are certainly doing a lot of posturing


yeah, Im deliberately not thinking about Ukraine...or rocketing gas prices...or the state of the Health Service...etc. It would just give me an ulcer, then Id have to worry about that too!
Far easier to just think about the parties!! I was willing the let the first couple go (stressful environment, letting off steam, etc) but at this point its just taking the p**s. They've lost my trust mainly due to the sheer stupidity of having parties at work and not thinking they would get caught...I mean they didnt even hold them in an abandoned warehouse with secret coded Evites or anything!:Wideyed


----------



## £54etgfb6

Pawscrossed said:


> Plotting how to escalate this political situation so he can use it as a distraction from his government's indirect murder of millions of innocent people by failing to act according to the law that was set out by those who broke it.


I did hear in his q&a today that he deflected a question by saying that a more important issue was the situation between Ukraine and Russia. I really am not sure why so many people on this planet cannot grasp the concept of having conversations on different topics and that every human on earth does not need to dedicate a period of time to discuss the same topic in unison. Absolutely hate people deflecting arguments with "I think ___ is a more important concern right now".


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> That makes sense. Keeping the boundaries so it doesn't overtake is very good concept. Good anger can fuel protest and empowerment. Medicine is very lucky to have you.
> 
> I was comparing my mental health to being elastic in a chat with a counsellor friend. That before several crises - one where I was suicidal - the elasticity stretched and it won't go back to its old shape. IVF failure changed me but the mental health impact was the bigger wallop as between the whammy, it's impossible to snap back!


I understand what you mean. There have been bad things that happened in my life that forever changed who I am as a person, how I cope with difficulties, how I see the world, etc. Some good changes but most bad. I don't know if I'm far enough along in life to know how to deal with these changes. I've always viewed myself as different people before and after these changes (metaphorically). Whether that's effective I'm not sure. It is a difficult thing to deal with. I guess we are all making our own way through a confusing world.

Edit to add: Also, thank you for the comment regarding medicine. I am really, really hoping I get in this year but if not I will keep trying!! My ultimate dream is to go into gastroenterology and work with patients, hospitals, councils, papers, whoever will have me to try and break down the stigma surrounding gastro conditions. I get very disappointed when people say "ew" to my chosen speciality especially when they know that I myself have Crohn's and an ileostomy lol!


----------



## MollySmith

June it was cake, this week rhubarb, next week broccoli (hopefully with a side of humble pie)


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> June it was cake, this week rhubarb, next week broccoli (hopefully with a side of humble pie)


Also BJ fat shamed the whole nation telling us to lose weight at the start of the pandemic and has literally done nothing but eat cake. Hypocrisy thy name is Boris.


----------



## Calvine

catz4m8z said:


> the sheer stupidity of having parties at work and not thinking they would get caught.


The sheer stupidity . . . but also the total arrogance that they would not be caught . . . and that if it did come to light, so what, they would get away with it. How many of them!!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Boxer123 said:


> Also BJ fat shamed the whole nation telling us to lose weight at the start of the pandemic and has literally done nothing but eat cake. Hypocrisy thy name is Boris.


And cheese lots of cheese! 
And for the love of dog Johnson, stop attaching a flexi lead to your dogs collar whilst jogging, get him a harness for goodness sake!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Blackadder said:


> Yet more....
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...nistan-foreign-office-emails-suggest-12525830
> 
> Prompts the old joke...
> How can you tell Boris is lying?
> His lips are moving.
> 
> Edit: This tweet made me laugh....
> 
> No dogs were evacuated. I didn't evacuate any dogs. I did evacuate some dogs but I didn't know they were dogs.


But if he actually maybe helped to save some dogs this is one and only thing I can forgive him… quite easily, think what you want of me…


----------



## MollySmith

catz4m8z said:


> yeah, Im deliberately not thinking about Ukraine...or rocketing gas prices...or the state of the Health Service...etc. It would just give me an ulcer, then Id have to worry about that too!
> Far easier to just think about the parties!! I was willing the let the first couple go (stressful environment, letting off steam, etc) but at this point its just taking the p**s. They've lost my trust mainly due to the sheer stupidity of having parties at work and not thinking they would get caught...I mean they didnt even hold them in an abandoned warehouse with secret coded Evites or anything!:Wideyed


It isn't Ukraine or parties which worry me but the lack of trust in the government.

Yeah, I know I've been open in my dislike, but way back in March 2020 I told myself to trust them, in as much as one can. I felt empathy at times but it feels like - on social today - that we have camps of those who are vulnerable/elderly/protecting NHS and will keep wearing masks, pitched against those who thought Boris was right and following the rules/Boris was an idiot, it was all rubbish/anti vaccination. And the first demographic are completely out numbered.

No trust in those in power historically leads to politically and socially worrying situations. Worse, they could face serious consequences due to the policing Bill which the Tory party are pushing through or they pass on the Covid virus as there are now no restrictions. It's a sad country.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> I understand what you mean. There have been bad things that happened in my life that forever changed who I am as a person, how I cope with difficulties, how I see the world, etc. Some good changes but most bad. I don't know if I'm far enough along in life to know how to deal with these changes. I've always viewed myself as different people before and after these changes (metaphorically). Whether that's effective I'm not sure. It is a difficult thing to deal with. I guess we are all making our own way through a confusing world.
> 
> Edit to add: Also, thank you for the comment regarding medicine. I am really, really hoping I get in this year but if not I will keep trying!! My ultimate dream is to go into gastroenterology and work with patients, hospitals, councils, papers, whoever will have me to try and break down the stigma surrounding gastro conditions. I get very disappointed when people say "ew" to my chosen speciality especially when they know that I myself have Crohn's and an ileostomy lol!


I wish you all the very best. I've learned a lot from your posts


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I note that Maggie was classed as one if the best


I was wondering recently what Maggie would have thought of the recent shenanigans in general and what on earth she would have thought of Boris in particular.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> I was wondering recently what Maggie would have thought of the recent shenanigans in general and what on earth she would have thought of Boris in particular.


She would have been disgusted by it all. There's one thing you could say about Maggie, she was always up front, even if it wasn't popular


----------



## MollySmith




----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> View attachment 483387


Ah yes, government were a bit concerned when it was "leaked" by comedian Joe Lycett


----------



## MollySmith

On joe's Twitter today, frankly anyone thinking he was causing mayhem needs to look at Johnson.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh! I'd not seen this and the last sentence made me laugh and cry all at the same time. admittedly I'm feeling a touch emotional at the moment but that's a great post from him. Thanks for sharing @MollySmith


----------



## mrs phas

In a similar vein as @MollySmith post.

Open and go to 99 blue buffoons

https://www.tiktok.com/@mel.moon.comedian?lang=en

It's both funny and tragic


----------



## Cleo38

Saw this on FB & now my brain feels dirty ..... :Hungoverummy


----------



## MollySmith

Cleo38 said:


> Saw this on FB & now my brain feels dirty ..... :Hungoverummy
> 
> View attachment 483416


Oh mine too, I felt a bit queasy.


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh! I'd not seen this and the last sentence made me laugh and cry all at the same time. admittedly I'm feeling a touch emotional at the moment but that's a great post from him. Thanks for sharing @MollySmith


I love Joe Lycett.

((hugs)) sounds like you need them.


----------



## Pawscrossed

He’s ruthless, Johnson. Utterly cold and completely disenfranchised, it’s frightening. I thought Thatcher had a cold heart, he has none whatsoever. Watching him in Westminster now.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> He's ruthless, Johnson. Utterly cold and completely disenfranchised, it's frightening. I thought Thatcher had a cold heart, he has none whatsoever. Watching him in Westminster now.


A friend who buried her mum that day in May said it's like living it all over again. My heart breaks for her.

The report is really nothing unknown, it fails to name anyone breaking the law by being there - who might oust Teflon Boris the Shamless and is equally as culpable in my view. It's 12 pages of stuff we knew already and has his sticky paws over it. No surprises at all. If anyone wants confirmation of what we knew, it's here. 
https://assets.publishing.service.g...emises_during_Covid_restrictions_-_Update.pdf


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> He's ruthless, Johnson. Utterly cold and completely disenfranchised, it's frightening. I thought Thatcher had a cold heart, he has none whatsoever. Watching him in Westminster now.[/QUOTE
> ]
> 
> Just stood there laughing it's disgusting.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> A friend who buried her mum that day in May said it's like living it all over again. My heart breaks for her.
> 
> The report is really nothing unknown, it fails to name anyone breaking the law by being there - who might oust Teflon Boris the Shamless and is equally as culpable in my view. It's 12 pages of stuff we knew already and has his sticky paws over it. No surprises at all. If anyone wants confirmation of what we knew, it's here.
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...emises_during_Covid_restrictions_-_Update.pdf


Was the big Bojo not asked by another MP to confirm that the investigation report would be unedited and he danced around the answer blithering about. What _is_ the purpose of this report if it is biased and doctored? What benefit does this provide to anyone?


----------



## MollySmith

What was the Jimmy Saville reference? That was a very desperate jibe at Starmer about failing to prosecute the inhuman scrote (whom Thatcher campaigned for his knighthood) when Starmer wasn’t part of the CPS. Surely that’s common knowledge for anyone involved and tantamount to slander. And utterly irrelevant to the investigation.

Theresa May wants to know if “Number 10” (notably not just Johnson) thought the rules didn’t apply or they didn’t read them.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> Was the big Bojo not asked by another MP to confirm that the investigation report would be unedited and he danced around the answer blithering about. What _is_ the purpose of this report if it is biased and doctored? What benefit does this provide to anyone?


It kept him in a job for longer, someone out there still likes him. If he fell out of a window he'd land right side up.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> What was the Jimmy Saville reference? That was a very desperate jibe at Starmer about failing to prosecute the inhuman scrote (whom Thatcher campaigned for his knighthood) when Starmer wasn't part of the CPS. Surely that's common knowledge for anyone involved and tantamount to slander. And utterly irrelevant to the investigation.
> 
> Theresa May wants to know if "Number 10" (notably not just Johnson) thought the rules didn't apply or they didn't read them.


I except the haircut wasn't adequate distraction.


----------



## Tallinn

Sorry - will try again!

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-prime-minister-tells-the-truth-says-nadine-dorries


----------



## StormyThai

Oh how convenient for the police to start an investigation into the same things as the report... there is nothing like an ongoing police investigation to gag people...
We just need a bit more time to "calm down" and forget things...BJ won the Tories their hugest majority, many politicians want to protect that!


----------



## £54etgfb6

What is UP with people saying "it's just a party there are bigger things to deal with right now". How do you fail to see the bigger picture, put things into perspective, and realise that this is part of a _long_ history of Boris lying and committing illegal acts?????

This attention should have been placed on him before but parties have been the tipping point because it is a topic relatable to most people who have been forced to make sacrifices during the pandemic.

I listen to BBC radio 2 and while I believe people should have freedom of speech, I fail to see how "there are bigger issues right now" is a justifiable or logical argument and so I don't see why these people are invited onto the show to speak! Is life a competition of which issue is the worst?


----------



## MollySmith

It’s alright, he’ll pull his pants over his tights and save us from Ukraine disaster assuming he knows where it is, he’s off for talks today....... terrifying. 

Whilst we could say Ukraine is a bigger issue, it’s Boris leading the negotiations with his track record. His attitude to the parties, Covid and Brexit (two years today we left and ain’t it all just wonderful... I’ve seen no benefits whatsoever regardless of Covid which is constantly used as an excuse for more lies) hardly instills confidence.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> What is UP with people saying "it's just a party there are bigger things to deal with right now". How do you fail to see the bigger picture, put things into perspective, and realise that this is part of a _long_ history of Boris lying and committing illegal acts?????
> 
> This attention should have been placed on him before but parties have been the tipping point because it is a topic relatable to most people who have been forced to make sacrifices during the pandemic.
> 
> I listen to BBC radio 2 and while I believe people should have freedom of speech, I fail to see how "there are bigger issues right now" is a justifiable or logical argument and so I don't see why these people are invited onto the show to speak! Is life a competition of which issue is the worst?


They needed him to take the responsibility for Brexit of which he was the architect, I think it was known apart from some of the public who thought him a comedic, gentle stand in on Have I Got News For You and the careful cultivation of an image with his hair. He never win a beauty contest or Mastermind so they've created one that is cuddly Boris with a bit of naughty, all the kids so he's Dad Boris. It's exhausting I imagine being a charade and inevitable that he'd be a victim of his own hubris but unfortunately nobody worked out how to get rid of him.

I thought he was oblivious but his cold manner and ability to laugh was cruel yesterday and I do believe that is the real Boris. He's a monster up there with worst committers of democide.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> They needed him to take the responsibility for Brexit of which he was the architect, I think it was known apart from some of the public who thought him a comedic, gentle stand in on Have I Got News For You and the careful cultivation of an image with his hair. He never win a beauty contest or Mastermind so they've created one that is cuddly Boris with a bit of naughty, all the kids so he's Dad Boris. It's exhausting I imagine being a charade and inevitable that he'd be a victim of his own hubris but unfortunately nobody worked out how to get rid of him.
> 
> I thought he was oblivious but his cold manner and ability to laugh was cruel yesterday and I do believe that is the real Boris. He's a monster up there with worst committers of democide.


My dad has always said Boris is aware of the image he creates and to be honest, with a man as intelligent as he is I don't think he would miss capitalising on the potential a harmless, clumsy, funny, oaf act has in terms of popularity votes. Boris is aware that many of the public view politicians (especially conservatives) as untrustworthy and he is smart enough to understand that lots of people will vote for someone who seems relatable, comedic, and friendly rather than someone who is cold, strict, and unrelatable, regardless of political manifesto. His whole persona is an act and so, to me, it's entirely unsurprising that he would lie to parliament, officials, and the public to get what he wants.

My nana still loves him for the exact reasons you've mentioned- "aw but he's so funny!". No words!!!


----------



## Dave S

Ok, this is where 2 similar cultures collide;



bmr10 said:


> My dad has always said Boris is aware of the image he creates and to be honest, with a man as intelligent as he is I don't think he would miss capitalising on the potential a harmless, clumsy, funny, oaf act has in terms of popularity votes. Boris is aware that many of the public view politicians (especially conservatives) as untrustworthy and he is smart enough to understand that lots of people will vote for someone who seems relatable, comedic, and friendly rather than someone who is cold, strict, and unrelatable, regardless of political manifesto


Correct to a point but whilst we voted him in and knew hew is a buffoon and all the above, and he was a better alternative than Corbyn, the Americans voted for exactly the opposite and voted Trump in and ended up in riots.

I am sure that Boris is very intelligent and plays the fool quite well but he is not in control of the party or his MP's. He should without a doubt stopped all the parties and everything else that he was aware of to cement his "kerb appeal".

Instead his old mate Demonic is now doing a hatchet job on him. Why was he not stopped by security when he left and his box of souvenirs looked at?

Personally I would rather have a Conservative government than Labour as they Labour do not have any fixed policies. Covid happened on Boris's watch and he has not done a bad job so far getting vaccines distributed etc. Admittedly there have been hiccups but being as there has been nothing like this for over 100 years he is writing the rules book as he goes.
.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Dave S said:


> Ok, this is where 2 similar cultures collide;
> 
> Correct to a point but whilst we voted him in and knew hew is a buffoon and all the above, and he was a better alternative than Corbyn, the Americans voted for exactly the opposite and voted Trump in and ended up in riots.
> 
> I am sure that Boris is very intelligent and plays the fool quite well but he is not in control of the party or his MP's. He should without a doubt stopped all the parties and everything else that he was aware of to cement his "kerb appeal".
> 
> Instead his old mate Demonic is now doing a hatchet job on him. Why was he not stopped by security when he left and his box of souvenirs looked at?
> 
> Personally I would rather have a Conservative government than Labour as they Labour do not have any fixed policies. Covid happened on Boris's watch and he has not done a bad job so far getting vaccines distributed etc. Admittedly there have been hiccups but being as there has been nothing like this for over 100 years he is writing the rules book as he goes.
> .


I think this is matter of your political allegiance as I personally vote for the party, not the person. I, if English, would have voted for Labour because I don't agree with any of the conservative manifesto and to me Labour is the lesser of two evils. Obviously that is the opposite to you.

While Boris does not control parliament or the conservative party at all, he did have the option to attend the parties or not and like you said, he should have opted out. Many MPs did not attend. This conservation is not about which party is better it is about a man finally being investigated for the repeated lies he has told. For those who voted him in as they viewed him as a lesser evil then, while I don't agree I respect the decision. For those, like my Nana, who voted for him based upon the caricature he has carefully constructed to manipulate both politicians and the public then, I have little sympathy.


----------



## MollySmith

Dave S said:


> Ok, this is where 2 similar cultures collide;
> 
> Correct to a point but whilst we voted him in and knew hew is a buffoon and all the above, and he was a better alternative than Corbyn, the Americans voted for exactly the opposite and voted Trump in and ended up in riots.
> 
> I am sure that Boris is very intelligent and plays the fool quite well but he is not in control of the party or his MP's. He should without a doubt stopped all the parties and everything else that he was aware of to cement his "kerb appeal".
> 
> Instead his old mate Demonic is now doing a hatchet job on him. Why was he not stopped by security when he left and his box of souvenirs looked at?
> 
> Personally I would rather have a Conservative government than Labour as they Labour do not have any fixed policies. Covid happened on Boris's watch and he has not done a bad job so far getting vaccines distributed etc. Admittedly there have been hiccups but being as there has been nothing like this for over 100 years he is writing the rules book as he goes.
> .


Several corrections to make. I believe public voters of the Tory party voted in Theresa May. The Tory party themselves voted in Boris to replace her. It is not the person, it's the party.

And it's an impossible hypothesis arguing Labour or any other party (all of whom have a manifesto and policies). They are not in power. Who knows. The Tory party had no choice but to steal a vaccine from science and medicine and use it as a political weapon (see sacking NHS staff unvaccinated and now the u-turn) because they've ignored the advice of the science and medicine to reduce the spread and over decades in power reduce the NHS. It's vaccine or probable death, from a man who let Cheltenham go ahead, didn't attend Cobra meetings and partied before the vaccine and as Demonic says seems to have created a culture in which it was acceptable to do so. I except it would be different under May as we've learned that culture feeds from the PM in recent months.

I admire your defence of him but I disagree, entirely with respect.


----------



## Jesthar

bmr10 said:


> While Boris does not control parliament or the conservative party at all, he did have the option to attend the parties or not and like you said, he should have opted out. Many MPs did not attend. This conservation is not about which party is better it is about a man finally being investigated for the repeated lies he has told. For those who voted him in as they viewed him as a lesser evil then, while I don't agree I respect the decision. For those, like my Nana, who voted for him based upon the caricature he has carefully constructed to manipulate both politicians and the public then, I have little sympathy.


He should not only have refused to attend the parties, he should have stopped them in their tracks and insisted his own staff abide by the rules. Although I guess we already knew how likely THAT was thanks to someone's little trip to Barnard Castle...

The man is a pathalogical liar, and I don't see how there can be many things MORE important to talk about when he's the one in charge of the country...


----------



## Pawscrossed

bmr10 said:


> I think this is matter of your political allegiance as I personally vote for the party, not the person. I, if English, would have voted for Labour because I don't agree with any of the conservative manifesto and to me Labour is the lesser of two evils. Obviously that is the opposite to you.
> 
> While Boris does not control parliament or the conservative party at all, he did have the option to attend the parties or not and like you said, he should have opted out. Many MPs did not attend. This conservation is not about which party is better it is about a man finally being investigated for the repeated lies he has told. For those who voted him in as they viewed him as a lesser evil then, while I don't agree I respect the decision. For those, like my Nana, who voted for him based upon the caricature he has carefully constructed to manipulate both politicians and the public then, I have little sympathy.





MollySmith said:


> Several corrections to make. I believe public voters of the Tory party voted in Theresa May. The Tory party themselves voted in Boris to replace her. It is not the person, it's the party.
> 
> And it's an impossible hypothesis arguing Labour or any other party (all of whom have a manifesto and policies). They are not in power. Who knows. The Tory party had no choice but to steal a vaccine from science and medicine and use it as a political weapon (see sacking NHS staff unvaccinated and now the u-turn) because they've ignored the advice of the science and medicine to reduce the spread and over decades in power reduce the NHS. It's vaccine or probable death, from a man who let Cheltenham go ahead, didn't attend Cobra meetings and partied before the vaccine and as Demonic says seems to have created a culture in which it was acceptable to do so. I except it would be different under May as we've learned that culture feeds from the PM in recent months.
> 
> I admire your defence of him but I disagree, entirely with respect.


Well said, both of you.

If it is a discussion of culture, then any party but the one responsible for Boris Johnson. I bitterly regret that I was swayed by his arguments before he was PM.


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> Well said, both of you.
> 
> If it is a discussion of culture, then any party but the one responsible for Boris Johnson. I bitterly regret that I was swayed by his arguments before he was PM.


They say it better than me. Couldn't agree more. it's not just about parties it's about having a government who have knowingly broken the law.

It's not silly to all the people who couldn't be with their loved ones whilst they were dying, the women who gave birth and lost babies alone. The NHS staff who moved out of their own home so they didn't infect their families. All whilst our government partied.

It's not just this issue. We are facing a living cost crisis. Rather than tax the rich we raise NI which will disproportionately effect the poor. Allegations of racism in the Conservative party. The policing and borders bill.

Do we want a man who quotes Peppa pig in negotiations with Russia?

This is the most correct government I've ever known.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Jesthar said:


> He should not only have refused to attend the parties, he should have stopped them in their tracks and insisted his own staff abide by the rules. Although I guess we already knew how likely THAT was thanks to someone's little trip to Barnard Castle...
> 
> The man is a pathalogical liar, and I don't see how there can be many things MORE important to talk about when he's the one in charge of the country...


Or whistleblowed? There must be a policy in place and while I read in the report that many staff felt scared to raise concerns, surely the top dog must feel this fear to a lesser extent? And when it's not just one party, but more and more and more, then at some point, your moral compass must trump your fears? I'd have ratted them out lol and the fact that the police investigation most likely won't name those who attended is shocking.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Boxer123 said:


> They say it better than me. Couldn't agree more. it's not just about parties it's about having a government who have knowingly broken the law.
> 
> It's not silly to all the people who couldn't be with their loved ones whilst they were dying, the women who gave birth and lost babies alone. The NHS staff who moved out of their own home so they didn't infect their families. All whilst our government partied.
> 
> It's not just this issue. We are facing a living cost crisis. Rather than tax the rich we raise NI which will disproportionately effect the poor. Allegations of racism in the Conservative party. The policing and borders bill.
> 
> Do we want a man who quotes Peppa pig in negotiations with Russia?
> 
> This is the most correct government I've ever known.


I expected nothing less from ERG government.
Putin must be quaking in his valonki.
ERG has very close business ties with Russian oligarchs so I would not hold my breath …

Surely they will send a strongly worded note of condemning the invasion … then Carry on Partying…


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> Or whistleblowed? There must be a policy in place and while I read in the report that many staff felt scared to raise concerns, surely the top dog must feel this fear to a lesser extent? And when it's not just one party, but more and more and more, then at some point, your moral compass must trump your fears? I'd have ratted them out lol and the fact that the police investigation most likely won't name those who attended is shocking.


That is worrying too. Whips cracking so to speak and being removed which is bullying and that isn't leading by example at all. It's not culture or policy it's morals and decency isn't it? I don't necessarily like Starmer, May or Blackford but they were bang on yesterday.


----------



## Calvine

Scottish Government suggests chopping the bottom off classroom doors to tackle Covid in schools | The Scotsman

Whatever next.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Calvine said:


> Scottish Government suggests chopping the bottom off classroom doors to tackle Covid in schools | The Scotsman
> 
> Whatever next.


Very odd. Wouldn't they be fire doors? I'd have thought that would not be great in the event of a fire, all those draughts.....


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> Scottish Government suggests chopping the bottom off classroom doors to tackle Covid in schools | The Scotsman
> 
> Whatever next.


Chopping the bottom off of doors is hilarious lmao!!!! Just _open_ the door?! Why would you remove a part of it what kind of fire safety hazard is that!

I do remember at my secondary school we had no ventilation in a very large granite building. The windows could not be opened regardless of the time of year because they were single-paned and attached to the window via a pivot in the middle. The pivot allowed them to rotate 360 degrees (why I don't know). This meant that if opened, these 6-foot tall windows would rotate wildly due to the wind and either take out someone's head or smash. I remember in summer we had to do classes outside sitting on the playground fairly often. I didn't mind it very much aside from the enforcement of wearing blazers in what is essentially a very large suntrap. Still, we didn't cut down any doors.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Scottish Government suggests chopping the bottom off classroom doors to tackle Covid in schools | The Scotsman
> 
> Whatever next.


...and then the schools will prompty be closed by the H&S inspector due to having chunks missing from fire doors... 

Also, handy thing about doors - they do this trick known as _opening_...


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Also, handy thing about doors - they do this trick known as _opening_...


You mean - a bit like windows normally do?


----------



## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> . Wouldn't they be fire doors?


 Many of them certainly will be.


----------



## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> Very odd. Wouldn't they be fire doors? I'd have thought that would not be great in the event of a fire, all those draughts.....


As you said:
Cutting up school doors for ventilation is a fire risk, Sturgeon told | Scotland | The Times


----------



## HarlequinCat

Calvine said:


> As you said:
> Cutting up school doors for ventilation is a fire risk, Sturgeon told | Scotland | The Times


Ahhh what is it with politicians. They just don't think. She would have wasted at least £300,000 on some hair brained scheme :Wacky


----------



## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> Ahhh what is it with politicians. They just don't think. She would have wasted at least £300,000 on some hair brained scheme :Wacky


And put lives at risk! And, to be honest, even if it had been a brainwave, it's about two years too late.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The hospitals are very still worried, no sign of them letting in visitors any time soon and all patients having a covid test ever other day.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I must confess I smiled at this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-60271059

I also smiled at this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60268378

This is my MP. Not that he's bitter about losing his ministerial last Autumn position or anything 

I've been thinking about Boris - to go or not to go. What concerns me if he goes is that Rishi (I assume he would be the natural successor) will manage to convince the country to vote Tory again, whereas maybe if Boris is still in charge, that may change the votes. I don't know.


----------



## stuaz

Mrs Funkin said:


> I've been thinking about Boris - to go or not to go. What concerns me if he goes is that Rishi (I assume he would be the natural successor) will manage to convince the country to vote Tory again, whereas maybe if Boris is still in charge, that may change the votes. I don't know.


Although the next general election is a way off yet and I'm not sure Joe Public will still remember what Boris and his government has done at the moment…

As the saying goes: "a week is a long time in politics".


----------



## Jaf

A local anti vax family/ b&b business have all got covid. Proudly announced that healing themselves with fire cider and ..... the horse wormer stuff! 

Funny how they're happy to take any meds when poorly.


----------



## stuaz

Not strictly covid related but -

https://news.sky.com/story/keir-sta...our-leader-to-safety-near-parliament-12535748

Regardless of your political alignment this kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

Based on what they were shouting, it's a reminder to those of a certain position in society to be careful what they say in public especially when untrue as you don't know what kind of nut jobs are out there listening to use it to fit there agenda.

Good thing the police were able to act quickly as it could of been ugly.


----------



## MollySmith

Apparently 10 of the MPs who wrote to Graham Brady expressing no confidence in Boris, will withdraw if the total gets towards 54 to slow down the vote until after May elections. Apparently the same thing happened with Theresa May. Murky world politics... 

It’s a bit like the loan to ‘help’ with fuel. Offset now means paying back later without addressing the root cause, so we all pay a price be that extreme poverty, people were just managing now tipped over into food banks and support or for others worse.

If you are struggling please ask if you feel you can.


----------



## Boxer123

stuaz said:


> Not strictly covid related but -
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/keir-sta...our-leader-to-safety-near-parliament-12535748
> 
> Regardless of your political alignment this kind of behaviour is unacceptable.
> 
> Based on what they were shouting, it's a reminder to those of a certain position in society to be careful what they say in public especially when untrue as you don't know what kind of nut jobs are out there listening to use it to fit there agenda.
> 
> Good thing the police were able to act quickly as it could of been ugly.


It's just jaw dropping that Boris thinks he can continue after this.


----------



## MollySmith

Life lessons…. Apologies for language in image if offended


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I am stunned at what is happening with food prices and petrol and heating and other bills - we aren't "cash rich" and just doing my normal shop I am noticing a massive difference. We are lucky in that these rises don't mean the difference between choosing to eat or heat our house but for many people that is the choice they are making. We just literally got our house insurance quote through as I was typing this - and it's £235 more than last year, over 20% increase. We've made one home insurance claim of £300 in 25 years. Of course, if you can't afford to pay it all in one go, you'll be penalised in terms of increased cost for paying in instalments. Seems as though increased costs due to Covid will be being used as an excuse for a long time to come - for home insurance it's being justified by "increased rebuild costs due to Covid". 

I'm so angry about it all - and I'm even more angry that voter apathy will probably mean the Conservatives will get in again next election and continue widening the divide between the haves and the have-nots.


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> Not strictly covid related but -
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/keir-sta...our-leader-to-safety-near-parliament-12535748
> 
> Regardless of your political alignment this kind of behaviour is unacceptable.
> 
> Based on what they were shouting, it's a reminder to those of a certain position in society to be careful what they say in public especially when untrue as you don't know what kind of nut jobs are out there listening to use it to fit there agenda.
> 
> Good thing the police were able to act quickly as it could of been ugly.


This was an anti-lockdown gang? I may be missing something, but I do not consider myself to be in any kind of lockdown right now, nor do I think Jimmy Savile has anything to do with any (non-existent) lockdown. Looks to me like the usual rent-a-mob having another fun day out.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...-mobbed-keir-starmer-amid-jimmy-savile-slurs/

Husband told me one of Keir Starmer's attackers was a former Conservative councillor. Honestly, the lot of them are disgraceful.


----------



## stuaz

Calvine said:


> This was an anti-lockdown gang? I may be missing something, but I do not consider myself to be in any kind of lockdown right now, nor do I think Jimmy Savile has anything to do with any (non-existent) lockdown. Looks to me like the usual rent-a-mob having another fun day out.


Anti lockdown, anti vaccine, and a bunch of other right wing stuff. One of them was even carrying a noose if that's an indication of the type of people they were…..


----------



## rona

I do not agree with Savile being brought up as it was, but I do agree with the No10 statement on the rationale behind it.

Whether that was the intention, or an argument after the event I couldn't hazard a guess. One would be acceptable if it had been pointed out at the time, and one most definitely not


----------



## Lurcherlad

Mrs Funkin said:


> I am stunned at what is happening with food prices and petrol and heating and other bills - we aren't "cash rich" and just doing my normal shop I am noticing a massive difference. We are lucky in that these rises don't mean the difference between choosing to eat or heat our house but for many people that is the choice they are making. We just literally got our house insurance quote through as I was typing this - and it's £235 more than last year, over 20% increase. We've made one home insurance claim of £300 in 25 years. Of course, if you can't afford to pay it all in one go, you'll be penalised in terms of increased cost for paying in instalments. Seems as though increased costs due to Covid will be being used as an excuse for a long time to come - for home insurance it's being justified by "increased rebuild costs due to Covid".
> 
> I'm so angry about it all - and I'm even more angry that voter apathy will probably mean the Conservatives will get in again next election and continue widening the divide between the haves and the have-nots.


Ring up about the quote and get them to drop it … renewal offers are always inflated.

Try compare the meerkat, etc. I got much cheaper quotes for mine recently, asked for a reduction, they couldn't get near the new quotes so I dumped them and went with the cheaper quote … cover was the same.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh yes @Lurcherlad we have a cheaper deal elsewhere - but the new rules are in place now, whereby a renewal is meant to be the same price as a new customer. I do wonder how many folk have no home insurance at all now due to the in-affordability.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> I do not agree with Savile being brought up as it was, but I do agree with the No10 statement on the rationale behind it.
> 
> Whether that was the intention, or an argument after the event I couldn't hazard a guess. One would be acceptable if it had been pointed out at the time, and one most definitely not


What was the rationale, is there a press release?


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> What was the rationale, is there a press release?


That the person in charge can not be held responsible for everything


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> That the person in charge can not be held responsible for everything


Ironic of them. They need to apply that to their own and get Johnson out. Munira Mirza's resignation letter was spot on.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boxer123 said:


> It's just jaw dropping that Boris thinks he can continue after this.


It is the lack of apology and thought to the consequences, a habitual flaw of the prime minister. He was told it was incorrect and would inflame the situation. It plays into the hands of these awful and dangerous groups.

My partner and I have been verbally abused in the street and had to call the police and whilst their attack on us is racist, they really don't care. It's professional abuse and an occupation. If it's not race, it is misplaced crime, Europe or sexual. Johnson has made it a credible form of abuse by leading by example. It's not new behaviour, he's got past form on this before he was PM.


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> It is the lack of apology and thought to the consequences, a habitual flaw of the prime minister. He was told it was incorrect and would inflame the situation. It plays into the hands of these awful and dangerous groups.
> 
> My partner and I have been verbally abused in the street and had to call the police and whilst their attack on us is racist, they really don't care. It's professional abuse and an occupation. If it's not race, it is misplaced crime, Europe or sexual. Johnson has made it a credible form of abuse by leading by example. It's not new behaviour, he's got past form on this before he was PM.


Didn't want to like this sorry you have been through these experiences. I couldn't agree more about Boris. A rent a mob using his words he's a disgrace.


----------



## MollySmith

According to Boris we are in ‘a different world’. Free testing ends soon, as do restrictions leaving vulnerable and those who cannot afford to pay or have jobs where they can’t isolate unsupported. 

And where are Chris Whitty and Patrick Valance?


----------



## MollySmith

What happened to Sue Gray? Where is the final partygate report? Presumably this will be hidden until after May’s local elections?


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well, conveniently for Boris, the whole Partygate report and issues around it will no doubt just be hidden under the awful situation in the Ukraine. Covid is already essentially forgotten, it’s like the 143,000 excess deaths haven’t happened. It feels very disrespectful to me.


----------



## StormyThai

MollySmith said:


> What happened to Sue Gray? Where is the final partygate report? Presumably this will be hidden until after May's local elections?


Teflon Boris strikes again:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60620289

At this point I am pretty certain that he could go out and stab someone and people would still excuse him :Banghead
I missed 3 funerals, I couldn't spend time with my gran in her final days (in fact she was left confused and frightened in hospital because us visiting was too much of a risk) and didn't see my dad for 2 years (and I know that I am not alone at all) but yeah...who cares now huh?!?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Yes, this war has saved his neck for now, with luck when things settle down he'll get what coming to him.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes, this war has saved his neck for now, with luck when things settle down he'll get what coming to him.


*I wouldn't bank on it. Tony Blair has been let off scot free.*


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *I wouldn't bank on it. Tony Blair has been let off scot free.*


He - well his party - subjected us to 12 or is it 14..... feels like a lifetime, of Conservative rule. But ones hopes people will decide for themselves in May and the next General election and vote for the appropriate party as this could be washed away. I think it's a tactical move - we will find out in June.


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> He - well his party - subjected us to 12 or is it 14..... feels like a lifetime, of Conservative rule. But ones hopes people will decide for themselves in May and the next General election and vote for the appropriate party as this could be washed away. I think it's a tactical move - we will find out in June.


I'm not sure it's as simple as it just being Tony's fault, though he was bad for the Labour Party. The main problem is a lot of former Labour voters just don't vote for Labour now, either because of week leadership like Ed Millibannd or Gordon Brown, or because the party isn't about helping the working class like with Corbin.
Or the fact that it's supposed to be the voice of the working class and you have millionaires in charge that don't know what financial hardship is like - people can't relate to them at all. Even when Boris was floundering the polls didn't increase much for Keir/Labour


----------



## JANICE199

HarlequinCat said:


> I'm not sure it's as simple as it just being Tony's fault, though he was bad for the Labour Party. The main problem is a lot of former Labour voters just don't vote for Labour now, either because of week leadership like Ed Millibannd or Gordon Brown, or because the party isn't about helping the working class like with Corbin.
> Or the fact that it's supposed to be the voice of the working class and you have millionaires in charge that don't know what financial hardship is like - people can't relate to them at all. Even when Boris was floundering the polls didn't increase much for Keir/Labour


*Corbyn was the only person i ever voted for. The Labour party is no longer what it use to be.*


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I'm so so sorry @StormyThai  I know it doesn't help but many of us do care and I am so saddened to read what you went through.

Not the nobheads in power, obviously, They don't give a fig about anyone except themselves.


----------



## £54etgfb6

HarlequinCat said:


> or because the party isn't about helping the working class like with Corbin.
> Or the fact that it's supposed to be the voice of the working class and you have millionaires in charge that don't know what financial hardship is like - people can't relate to them at all.


But you have to wonder- who _are_ they voting for?? The conservatives don't represent or care about the working class and what other party has a strong enough lead to vote for? Do a lot of English ex-Labour voters just not vote at all?


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *Corbyn was the only person i ever voted for. The Labour party is no longer what it use to be.*


You were voting for the Labour Party manifesto not Corbyn. He is lurking around doing some independent thing I think.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> But you have to wonder- who _are_ they voting for?? The conservatives don't represent or care about the working class and what other party has a strong enough lead to vote for? Do a lot of English ex-Labour voters just not vote at all?


Maybe Lib Dem? But I think they were so persuaded by the Tory party promise with stuff like HS2 and levelling up so it'll be interesting to see what gives next GE.


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> I'm not sure it's as simple as it just being Tony's fault, though he was bad for the Labour Party. The main problem is a lot of former Labour voters just don't vote for Labour now, either because of week leadership like Ed Millibannd or Gordon Brown, or because the party isn't about helping the working class like with Corbin.
> Or the fact that it's supposed to be the voice of the working class and you have millionaires in charge that don't know what financial hardship is like - people can't relate to them at all. Even when Boris was floundering the polls didn't increase much for Keir/Labour


Yup, but then again my city has swathes of £1-5m homes all voting Labour judging by the window stickers and boards.

(I sometimes read Miliband and Brown and think they impart more wisdom now than in politics and wonder what constraints are placed on people. Ones that Johnson may evade, rightly or wrongly.)


----------



## MollySmith

Sunak and Johnson to be fined
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61083402


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Sunak and Johnson to be fined
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61083402


Just as I was typing what a selfish bunch of hypocrites they are on the other thread.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Sunak and Johnson to be fined
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61083402


But how much will the fines affect them? I have a serious gripe with the fining system in the UK. I fully believe it should be a proportion of your income rather than a set amount for everyone. A £150 fine will affect someone earning £12,000 per year a lot more, and therefore deter them a lot more, than someone earning £400,000 per year. Our judicial system punishes the poor and allows the privileged to escape consequence.


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> But how much will the fines affect them? I have a serious gripe with the fining system in the UK. I fully believe it should be a proportion of your income rather than a set amount for everyone. A £150 fine will affect someone earning £12,000 per year a lot more, and therefore deter them a lot more, than someone earning £400,000 per year. Our judicial system punishes the poor and allows the privileged to escape consequence.


I think that on top of TaxGate... their career and reputation. Well it should do. But even then barely touches the sides. Sunak wanted PM, and I guess yay..... it'll be the Liz Truss show. Yippee dammed do eh?


----------



## MollySmith

But it never ceases to amaze me at how people will defend them, so probably barely touch the sides I suspect.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> I think that on top of TaxGate... their career and reputation. Well it should do. But even then barely touches the sides. Sunak wanted PM, and I guess yay..... it'll be the Liz Truss show. Yippee dammed do eh?


 I was just thinking I bet team Truss are very happy! With the situation in Ukraine I doubt Johnson will be facing a vote of no confidence any time soon so Liz will have to wait a bit longer for the top spot.


----------



## MollySmith

He lied in parliament though I have to say I find that very odd accusation since I view most MPs as, well not necessary liars but 'embellishing the facts' maybe? But either way, it's impossible to wriggle out of it. He's broken the laws of parliament.

The other issue is that Johnson did mention lockdowns in an interview at the weekend and that he hasn't ruled them out. Who on earth will follow any rules about it when he's failed to follow them. But the only possible way he could maybe persuade anyone to follow those rules is presumable to de-politise Covid and allow medicine and science to lead as it should have in my amateur opinion, because he's pretty much undermined his own rule making as the leader of the party in power. And that's really destabilising this country which is already on its knees with grief over Covid, cost of living crisis and governed by a man and his cabinet who have repeatedly lived by their own rules. 

There's enough people who have been affected by losses at the time, and since who were unable to mourn and my heart really goes out to them.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> He lied in parliament though I have to say I find that very odd accusation since I view most MPs as, well not necessary liars but 'embellishing the facts' maybe?


It's so sad when it's a well-accepted fact that politicians, regardless of party, lie. The bar is so low for them :Arghh


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> It's so sad when it's a well-accepted fact that politicians, regardless of party, lie. The bar is so low for them :Arghh


Yes, agree. Sir David Amees seemed like a good chap and our MP here in Cambridge is great. I feel sorry for those who do good stuff in their parties whatever side and see this. It's so disappointing. I attended a debate years ago in Westminster Hall as a member of the public on NICE funding in the NHS for infertility investigations and it was a cross party one so there were Tory, Labour, Green and Lib Dem MPs there and all were very aware that those of us who attended had been through infertility and I was really moved and impressed by their efforts.


----------



## Pawscrossed

_50 fines._ It is not merely the Chancellor and the PM, it is the rest of the party who have not thus far demanded a resignation through the 1922 committee. Truss, Rees-Mogg and that awful Fabricant (who said that Boris was only following what nurses do and offended them so much the RCN have issued a statement) are defending.


----------



## Jobeth

This is the response from the RCN and hopefully the teacher unions will respond to the insult as well.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

There will be no vote of no confidence. The Tories will get in again. There’s so much voter apathy. Young people where I live, many of whom are in the lowest income bracket, just don’t vote. Without them voting out long standing Tories, there’s no chance. Tories are turning the whole Fabricant thing on its head and complaining about NHS staff doing TikTok videos. Jeez.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Apparently the Chancellor was ready to resign but BJ talked him out of it, it would look bad if he went and BJ didn't.

If he had any dependency (if that's how you spell it) he would be a man and resign want ever BJ says or does.


----------



## Boxer123

Agreed @Mrs Funkin I'm shocked how many people stand up for them. I had an argument with my nanny who was insisting poor Boris expected to deal with all of this. There are enough voters who are wealthy enough they are not effected. How much more damage can they do ? Most Covid deaths in Europe, NHS on its needs, cost of living crisis.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Mrs Funkin said:


> There will be no vote of no confidence. The Tories will get in again. There's so much voter apathy. Young people where I live, many of whom are in the lowest income bracket, just don't vote. Without them voting out long standing Tories, there's no chance. Tories are turning the whole Fabricant thing on its head and complaining about NHS staff doing TikTok videos. Jeez.


There is SUCH a huge "all politicians are bad so what's the point of voting" mentality amongst young people. I think they have grown up seeing and hearing adult's criticisms on politicians and just decided that voting is a futile endeavour. I wish it was not like this. So many young people believe there is no point in trying because the world is hopeless. I think it's also caused by the high amount of media and news young people are exposed to- it causes emotional burnout.

My sister has always asked *me* who she should vote for, despite being 4 years older than me. She says she finds politics depressing and avoids reading up about the news at all. It's kind of depressing.


----------



## StormyThai

Personally I think that BJ and his cronies are very lucky that we had a global pandemic and then a war... easier to blame those than it is to accept responsibility!

Unprecedented times... mumble, mumble, cough, cough...no one would have done any better... mumble, mumble...he had such a hard time, he deserves to relax after a busy day running the country... mumble, mumble...oh we have far more to worry about than the politicians we voted in having broken laws (that they set)...I mean who would have done any better?

Cough, cough....


----------



## Boxer123

StormyThai said:


> Personally I think that BJ and his cronies are very lucky that we had a global pandemic and then a war... easier to blame those than it is to accept responsibility!
> 
> Unprecedented times... mumble, mumble, cough, cough...no one would have done any better... mumble, mumble...he had such a hard time, he deserves to relax after a busy day running the country... mumble, mumble...oh we have far more to worry about than the politicians we voted in having broken laws (that they set)...I mean who would have done any better?
> 
> Cough, cough....


Exactly can you imagine if that had been accepted in WW2 poor Neville he's doing his best. No he resigned and Churchill took over.


----------



## simplysardonic

bmr10 said:


> But how much will the fines affect them? I have a serious gripe with the fining system in the UK. I fully believe it should be a proportion of your income rather than a set amount for everyone. A £150 fine will affect someone earning £12,000 per year a lot more, and therefore deter them a lot more, than someone earning £400,000 per year. Our judicial system punishes the poor and allows the privileged to escape consequence.


Fines are pocket change to the very wealthy so not a deterrant at all.

I remember a notorious local slum landlord who owned a lot of rentals on the coast (years ago, so unsure if things have changed) being fined for not bringing his properties up to an acceptable standard for habitation.

I said 'well that'll get it sorted at last'

An older, wiser friend told my young, naive self 'nah, he's been doing this for years, it's cheaper to be fined enow & then than it would be to renovate the properties.'


----------



## Calvine

simplysardonic said:


> Fines are pocket change to the very wealthy


And yet, depending on the severity (I guess how fast you were driving) a speeding fine can be means tested and you pay something like 175% of your weekly income. happened to my (well-paid) neighbour. This was a couple of years back - may have changed by now. What's the point fining a barrister £60? As you say, it's no deterrent whatsoever.


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## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *I wouldn't bank on it. Tony Blair has been let off scot free.*


I never had a real problem with him, it's the I don't care about anyone else but me attitude BJ has that really gets to me.


----------



## MollySmith

StormyThai said:


> Personally I think that BJ and his cronies are very lucky that we had a global pandemic and then a war... easier to blame those than it is to accept responsibility!
> 
> Unprecedented times... mumble, mumble, cough, cough...no one would have done any better... mumble, mumble...he had such a hard time, he deserves to relax after a busy day running the country... mumble, mumble...oh we have far more to worry about than the politicians we voted in having broken laws (that they set)...I mean who would have done any better?
> 
> Cough, cough....


That's the act he's cultivated for so long isn't? The comedy Boris with his silly harness on that ride like an overgrown child designed to make us roll our eyes ummy1 then there's Boris the fertile father and lover of women :Cigar and Boris the host with the most on Have I Got New For Your, such a witty chap :Angelic taking it on the chin from Paul and Ian. There's a Boris for everyone apart from the cynics who saw through it from the start.

My words to my cousin when he was elected PM (as an ex-pat in Singapore with a house in Greenwich she's the native rich comedy Boris fan) were 'he's a lying bar steward who will be victim to his own publicity show and will out live us like the Keith Richard of politics, unsackable and unaware.'

*oh I used some new emojis, that's why they're here!


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I never had a real problem with him, it's the I don't care about anyone else but me attitude BJ has that really gets to me.


I don't especially like Blair, he pops up with a holier than thou comment but one can't compare them or anyone to this shower. @JANICE199 the point being that Boris is the only - only - PM charged by the police for breaking the rules he made up with absolutely no real apology. I suspect he turned up for Brexit because nobody else wanted it and has found himself still here.

His entire statement yesterday is an exercise in how to not apologise. If he'd said way back 'I screwed up' then I think I'd have a degree of respect but to deny evidence and the outcome is remarkable. It's actually quite amazing to see someone so utterly self assured and if he wasn't the PM I'd find it utterly fascinating.


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## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> _50 fines._ It is not merely the Chancellor and the PM, it is the rest of the party who have not thus far demanded a resignation through the 1922 committee. Truss, Rees-Mogg and that awful Fabricant (who said that Boris was only following what nurses do and offended them so much the RCN have issued a statement) are defending.


They won't though will they, they'll hang on in there until the General election. After all, they can skim off a few more million before then


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## MollySmith

And a reminder that if you want to vote - and why would you not - at the local elections then today is the day when you have to register.


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## Happy Paws2

he lies about party and has been fined* BUT* he lied to parament which is worse he has got to resign.


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## Jobeth

One of the teachers' unions has replied as well.


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## rona

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliament-public-vote-of-no-confidence-in-pm-johnson


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## Mrs Funkin

Heh. I especially like the line, "Teachers were in bubbles, not drinking them".


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## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> Heh. I especially like the line, "Teachers were in bubbles, not drinking them".


Oh hello. I thought you'd be on the razz with a bottle of Baby Cham in the staff room.


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## Mrs Funkin

If we 1) had had the energy to lift a glass to our mouth 2) had a staff room and 3) wouldn’t be sacked for having alcohol with us, I’m sure we’d have been all over it  

As an aside, I blooming love Babycham haha!


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## £54etgfb6

Reviving the thread because many of us were worried partygate and the Tory handling of the pandemic would be forgotten about. Looking at the election results tonight it seems like people have not forgotten!! 

The conservative leader in Scotland has said: "they are not happy with the prime minister, they are not happy with partygate" in reference to the huge loss of councillors (63 seats) the Scottish conservative party experienced. Tories now stand as the third-largest party in terms of local councillors (Labour has risen to 2nd and SNP remains first).


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## Mrs Funkin

Yes but sadly in 2018 a similar thing happened under JCs Labour leadership (even worse losses for the Tories IIRC) but they still won the general election a year later…now Keir is under investigation, that could be troublesome for the Labour Party. If he’s issued a fine, he will surely have to resign after calling for Boris to after he was fined. 

What gives me a small hope is that lots of “never been Labour before” councils like Worthing and Wandsworth are now Labour. Though how much good could be done by Labour with the country in the state it is now, even if it got two terms of office, I’m not so sure.


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## rona

bmr10 said:


> Reviving the thread because many of us were worried partygate and the Tory handling of the pandemic would be forgotten about. Looking at the election results tonight it seems like people have not forgotten!!
> 
> The conservative leader in Scotland has said: "they are not happy with the prime minister, they are not happy with partygate" in reference to the huge loss of councillors (63 seats) the Scottish conservative party experienced. Tories now stand as the third-largest party in terms of local councillors (Labour has risen to 2nd and SNP remains first).


Although I think they wanted to give Boris a bloody nose, I feel that 50% of their vote loss is to do with losing Ruth Davidson as leader in Scotland


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## Calvine

Mrs Funkin said:


> now Keir is under investigation,


The hypocrisy and lies from both sides is totally staggering - not one of them could lie straight in bed.


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## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> Yes but sadly in 2018 a similar thing happened under JCs Labour leadership (even worse losses for the Tories IIRC) but they still won the general election a year later…now Keir is under investigation, that could be troublesome for the Labour Party. If he's issued a fine, he will surely have to resign after calling for Boris to after he was fined.
> 
> What gives me a small hope is that lots of "never been Labour before" councils like Worthing and Wandsworth are now Labour. Though how much good could be done by Labour with the country in the state it is now, even if it got two terms of office, I'm not so sure.


If he is found guilty then I imagine he'll go but at least with Rayner and others, there's better people to take over but it's so damming or well timed accusation. Very disappointing whichever way one looks at it.

Greens did well in Cambridge, we're now Green/Labour in my ward with Green the majority which is what I had expected.


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## £54etgfb6

.


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## £54etgfb6

.


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## cheekyscrip

At the moment we can say both parties seem to break the COVID rules.
Boris is not resigning so why Starmer should?

The real problem is now Putin.
Threat to the world much more serious than even COVID.
Russia is on the war path with the West.

I think that Tories broke rules on much bigger scale.


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## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> At the moment we can say both parties seem to break the COVID rules.
> Boris is not resigning so why Starmer should?
> 
> I think that Tories broke rules on much bigger scale.


Starmer was having a working lunch not a bring your own drinks party or a large gathering in the garden with his wife and there were other gathering in No 10.


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## MollySmith

Until the police release their report it's all - as it was with Boris - conjecture.


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## HarlequinCat

cheekyscrip said:


> At the moment we can say both parties seem to break the COVID rules.
> Boris is not resigning so why Starmer should?
> 
> The real problem is now Putin.
> Threat to the world much more serious than even COVID.
> Russia is on the war path with the West.
> 
> I think that Tories broke rules on much bigger scale.


If it turns out the curry and beer, and Angela Rayner being there did break the rules, it shows that Starmer, who has been quite relentless in demanding the resignation of Johnson, has done no better and has been very hypocritical. Starmer was in full support of harsh lockdowns, but if this was shown to be a party or get together he is as at fault as much as Johnson for socialising when he was all for people being unable to visit ill or dying relatives too.

The state of politics in this country.....


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## Arny

This was already investigated and he was found not breaking the rules so why are they investigating again?


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## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> Starmer was having a working lunch not a bring your own drinks party or a large gathering in the garden with his wife and there were other gathering in No 10.


I have to say I agree it bothers me less than what the stories were up to laughing about it, having parties the night of Prince Philips funeral.


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## Happy Paws2

Arny said:


> This was already investigated and he was found not breaking the rules so why are they investigating again?


0

Because the tories and the daily mail are trying to get attraction away from the petrol and gas prices going up and the cost of living spiralling out of control.


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## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> 0
> 
> Because the tories and the daily mail are trying to get attraction away from the petrol and gas prices going up and the cost of living spiralling out of control.


This exactly


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## MollySmith

Arny said:


> This was already investigated and he was found not breaking the rules so why are they investigating again?


Apparently the police have new evidence which was shared to them on the eves of the 5th May elections. It's more dirty politics regardless of the outcome. That timing matters because if the Tories are planting evidence then that is wrong, if Labour are withholding to get votes also wrong and it's wrong wrong wrong morally.

It's not just the issue of if Starmer is guilty - though bear in mind Boris broke his own rules - it's the fact that parties claiming 'we did this , you did that' is playground behaviour and more attention needs to be paid to getting a solution to the spread of Covid and the NHS back on its feet since there are still deaths and infections every day.

I despair of them all.


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## Happy Paws2

Never really believer much of what come out of the House of Parliament and nothing in the daily mail.
The only MP I really like is Ian Blackford Leader of the Scottish National Party, If I lived in Scotland he'd get my vote.


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## MollySmith

It gets a more sordid - politically.

The video was filmed by Ivo Delingpole. He's the student son of the Breitbart writer James Delingpole. The video was then shared to that great orator of sanity, Laurence Fox and then the right wing press got it, namely the Daily Wail. James Delingpole is an Oxford University contemporary of Johnson’s in the 1980s. He has written for the rightwing Breitbart and other outlets such as the Spectator and the Telegraph. He has a podcast which featured several anti-lockdown activists, including Fox.Yet when the video of Starmer first circulated last April, he tweeted about it without mentioning that his son had filmed it.


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## £54etgfb6

.


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## Calvine

Arny said:


> This was already investigated and he was found not breaking the rules so why are they investigating again?


 I believe photographs have emerged which might suggest that he and his crew were not quite as goodly as they would have us believe and which contradict what was previously said. All as bad as each other, let's face it. I can't be bothered to vote any more to be frank..


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## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> It gets a more sordid - politically.
> 
> The video was filmed by Ivo Delingpole. He's the student son of the Breitbart writer James Delingpole. The video was then shared to that great orator of sanity, Laurence Fox and then the right wing press got it, namely the Daily Wail. James Delingpole is an Oxford University contemporary of Johnson's in the 1980s. He has written for the rightwing Breitbart and other outlets such as the Spectator and the Telegraph. He has a podcast which featured several anti-lockdown activists, including Fox.Yet when the video of Starmer first circulated last April, he tweeted about it without mentioning that his son had filmed it.


It's quite sad really. There's always a hidden agenda and self interest in the revealing of these things. The same with Johnsons gatherings. Why sit on it and wait until a year on so later to reveal. Why not at the time of the lockdowns?

I honestly don't think any politician has the best interests of the public at the forefront of their minds


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## £54etgfb6

HarlequinCat said:


> I honestly don't think any politician has the best interests of the public at the forefront of their minds


I feel like it's all a game to most of them. I don't even believe a lot of them care about their manifestos either but simply hit the key topics (NHS funding, School funding, things affecting older/poor people) to get as much votes as possible. Why _is it_ that so many politicians are liars or selfish? Why does the career attract people like this or is just that most people aren't that nice after all??


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## Happy Paws2

Before I die, I'd like just one politician to knock on by door to ask my opinion, I'm 74 OH is 78 and so far either of us have ever spoken one.


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## £54etgfb6

.


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## Happy Paws2

Brilliant :Hilarious


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## Cleo38

Happy Paws2 said:


> Before I die, I'd like just one politician to knock on by door to ask my opinion, I'm 74 OH is 78 and so far either of us have ever spoken one.


They used to years ago but then expenses scandal came out & none of them dared venture out as I think the hatred for politicians at that time was off the scale


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## Happy Paws2

Cleo38 said:


> They used to years ago but then expenses scandal came out & none of them dared venture out as I think the hatred for politicians at that time was off the scale


They say they do, they say they have been knocking doors and that's how they get the opinion of the people.


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## Deguslave

My MP was in my street and his rep knocked my door so we called the MP over. Nothing was done about my complaint and since the lockdown and the closed golf club, he's been seen so seldom that most of us have forgotten we EVEN HAVE an MP.


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## Cleo38

Happy Paws2 said:


> They say they do, they say they have been knocking doors and that's how they get the opinion of the people.


I have never anyone out in years & don't know anyone who has. I would bloody love one of them to come here


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## Happy Paws2

Cleo38 said:


> I have never anyone out in years & don't know anyone who has.* I would bloody love one of them to come here *


And me, I'd love Andrew Michell MP to knock on my door I'd have a lot to say to him.


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## HarlequinCat

bmr10 said:


> I feel like it's all a game to most of them. I don't even believe a lot of them care about their manifestos either but simply hit the key topics (NHS funding, School funding, things affecting older/poor people) to get as much votes as possible. Why _is it_ that so many politicians are liars or selfish? Why does the career attract people like this or is just that most people aren't that nice after all??


I'd like to think most people are decent humans. But there's something about running a government that attracts a certain sort of person.


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## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> It's quite sad really. There's always a hidden agenda and self interest in the revealing of these things. The same with Johnsons gatherings. Why sit on it and wait until a year on so later to reveal. Why not at the time of the lockdowns?
> 
> I honestly don't think any politician has the best interests of the public at the forefront of their minds


I think a few do, but they are the minority. I think back to John Smith who passed away before he made an impact, Michael Portfolio who left the Tory part and wonder what they may have done but it's so hideous at the moment, it's hard to recall a time when it was decent. Agree, it's very sad and feels better suited to playground not a house of democracy that is elected by people to work for them - last bit seems to be omitted from the job description of the latest lot.


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## £54etgfb6

.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Before I die, I'd like just one politician to knock on by door to ask my opinion, I'm 74 OH is 78 and so far either of us have ever spoken one.


They're like flies over poo here. Apart from the 'Local' Conservative whom I've never seen and didn't even pop in a leaflet. Again dirty politics I suspect as he's trying to divide the votes. Why stand if they can't be bothered to talk to the people.

My parent's MP, Conservative (replaced by Lib Dem last week) got to my parents door last month, took a look at my mum and said 'oh yes I remember you.'


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## Mrs Funkin

Husband has a childhood pal who is an MP. He seems to be very well respected by his constituents - and he appears to be what I would want in an MP. Having said that he was a bit annoying on Question Time, trying to turn answers around to the "party line" which I know is kind of what they are meant to do but it was a bit gggrrrr making.


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## £54etgfb6

.


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## Mrs Funkin

I'm with your Dad, to be fair...I also wouldn't have thought much of Michael Gove! Peter is a pretty decent man. Deffo not a Gove type.


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## Boxer123

Prince Charles talking about the cost of living whilst sat on a gold throne yesterday


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## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> Prince Charles talking about the cost of living whilst sat on a gold throne yesterday


True but not his words but BJ's and he didn't look happy about what he had to say.


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## Jesthar

Boxer123 said:


> Prince Charles talking about the cost of living whilst sat on a gold throne yesterday


Technically, it's not gold, it's gilded wood. It's also been around for well over 150 years, so it's hardly a modern frivolity 

I do appreciate the irony, of course, but I would imagine it's presence is one of the big draws for Parliament tours, so it probably earns it's keep to a far greater degree than most MPs


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## Boxer123

Jesthar said:


> Technically, it's not gold, it's gilded wood. It's also been around for well over 150 years, so it's hardly a modern frivolity
> 
> I do appreciate the irony, of course, but I would imagine it's presence is one of the big draws for Parliament tours, so it probably earns it's keep to a far grater degree than most MPs


Of course but I just think the ruling elite are completely clueless we need a panel of people who have their feet on the ground in this crisis.


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## Jesthar

Boxer123 said:


> Of course but I just think the ruling elite are completely clueless we need a panel of people who have their feet on the ground in this crisis.


Depends if you are talking about the Royals or MPs as the ruling elite. The Royals have no actual power, and MPs and the cabinet write and approve the speech


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## Boxer123

Jesthar said:


> Depends if you are talking about the Royals or MPs as the ruling elite. The Royals have no actual power, and MPs and the cabinet write and approve the speech


I know this but I do lump them altogether in my brain. We need people who understand and we don't.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> True but not his words but BJ's and he didn't look happy about what he had to say.


I don't think any of the royal family are that in tune but he seems a bit more than most. He looked a bit incredulous.

I think there was a King who spat out his teeth in horror.

Anyway here's something good Black Rod set to ACDC's Thunderstruck

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...rance-to-acdc-music-and-its-wonderful-322112/


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## Mrs Funkin

Good grief, Boris is literally lying through his back teeth. I'd love to think that the public will remember this by the time the next election comes along...alas I fear they won't


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## Boxer123

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief, Boris is literally lying through his back teeth. I'd love to think that the public will remember this by the time the next election comes along...alas I fear they won't


I'm surprised at the amount they drink ! How can they run the country ?


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## StormyThai

Boxer123 said:


> I'm surprised at the amount they drink ! How can they run the country ?


It's honestly amazing how much alcohol swills around the "Old boys clubs"
What with business lunches and the like...can't possible talk business without a good stiff drink in ones hand!


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## rona

Boxer123 said:


> I'm surprised at the amount they drink ! How can they run the country ?





StormyThai said:


> It's honestly amazing how much alcohol swills around the "Old boys clubs"
> What with business lunches and the like...can't possible talk business without a good stiff drink in ones hand!


And we pay for it..................


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## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> I'm surprised at the amount they drink ! How can they run the country ?


Doesn't look like they can at the moment, now we know why.


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## Happy Paws2

Mrs Funkin said:


> Good grief, Boris is literally lying through his back teeth. I'd love to think that the public will remember this by the time the next election comes along...alas I fear they won't


The voting public have short memories


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## Happy Paws2

It's not all the parties he had in No.10 breaking the rules, if he'd admitted it right from the start maybe he could stay, it's the fact that he lied to parliament more than once, you can't have PM who openly lies in the Houses of Parliament, can we ever believe him anymore.


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## Happy Paws2

Now this should be interesting...


Sue Gray's final report into parties in and around Downing Street during the pandemic has been handed to the prime minister
The report will be published soon - it includes photos of gatherings
Boris Johnson will give a statement to the Commons at 12:30 BST


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now this should be interesting...
> 
> 
> Sue Gray's final report into parties in and around Downing Street during the pandemic has been handed to the prime minister
> The report will be published soon - it includes photos of gatherings
> Boris Johnson will give a statement to the Commons at 12:30 BST


But is he going to;

1. Shift the blame,
2. Deny it was going on and it was all a dream,
3. Deny it was him in the photos,
4. Order a new report as a delaying tactic, or,
5. Resign.

My moneys on any of the above BUT no.5.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Deguslave said:


> But is he going to;
> 
> 1. Shift the blame,
> 2. Deny it was going on and it was all a dream,
> 3. Deny it was him in the photos,
> 4. Order a new report as a delaying tactic, or,
> 5. Resign.
> 
> My moneys on any of the above BUT no.5.


6. Blame it on not understanding the rules 
7. Deny breaking the rules 
8. None of it matters, cos my MPs will support me
9. None of it matter because my people love me, I could piss up the Covid memorial wall wearing nothing but a party hat and blowing a party whistle and people will just say " oh bless Boris he is so funny"


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> 8. None of it matters, cos my MPs will support me
> 9. None of it matter because my people love me, "


But I'll never understand Why!


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## Deguslave

@3dogs2cats noooooo, just the thought of no.9 gives me nightmares! Lol.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

@3dogs2cats I know it's not a laughing matter but that made me chuckle 

We weren't even allowed to sit in the same room to have lunch at work in the hospital at the height of Covid - let alone be knocking back the fizz and having a party...!


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## Boxer123

Vote of no confidence today.


----------



## David C

I'm not holding my breath


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## 3dogs2cats

Johnson is expected to win and with ease but regardless the discontent in his leadership is not going to go away!


----------



## stuaz

I think he will win this vote but the numbers will be very telling. After all Theresa May won the vote of no confidence but was gone months later…

Conservative Leaders don’t have great track record with these votes!


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## Deguslave

Unfortunately I think he'll win, but I also think they'll have to remove him if they want to win the next election. His MPs might support him, but I don't think the general public do; the boos from the crowd as he walked into the cathedral at the weekend should be enough to convince them of that.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Blooming heck, it's coming to something when I agree with Jeremy Hunt!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Mrs Funkin said:


> Blooming heck, it's coming to something when I agree with Jeremy Hunt!


Damn you Johnson this is what you do to people, make them nod along in agreement with idiots! If my MP should vote for no confidence it will be the first time I have ever agreed with him on anything, I'm safe though the chances of that happening are exceedingly low!


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## Mrs Funkin

Well, that was worse than they thought I reckon...148 against is more than Theresa May has before she resigned a few months later.


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## Happy Paws2

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well, that was worse than they thought I reckon...148 against is more than Theresa May has before she *resigned a few months later*.


Lets hope the same things happen now, sooner than later.


----------

