# I have just seen the most awful photo...



## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Someone on my facebook has just posted a link....i really wish i hadn't seen it. 
It is a picture that is going to haunt me....i am lost for words...Gosh i won't be able to sleep tonight after seeing this. 
It is a little cavalier that is being attacked....it is awful. Please don't look if you don't want to be really upset.

Please be aware, this link is not nice, and very upsetting....

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...11065051103.2159450.1106163270&type=1&theater


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

How awful! Why on earth would anyone enjoy sharing that photo on Facebook...? 

Personally I'd be trying to help separate the dogs rather then stand around taking pictures..? 

Yet again the dog is blamed and not the owner 

ETA: ok so the person taking the pictures was the owner, the only people attempting to separate the dogs is men walking the terrier... According to the rest of photos anyway


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I was wondering why someone took the time for a pic....

It's the cav's face....i can't get it out my mind now....i could cry. Never seen anything so awful.

Wish i hadn't seen it now as i'll be upset for days over that.

Yep...dog got the blame, instead of the twatty owner! 

Hope the poor cav is going to be ok....mentally it will probably be scarred! 

I feel sick...


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh gosh, that is horrible.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

You hear about these sorts of things.....but seeing that shows just how horrific it actually is....

I don't know how i'd cope if that happened to one of mine. 
I would physically shove myself in the dogs mouth to save my dogs. 

See....this is why i fecking HATE humans!!! How could anybody on this earth want to see their dog do this to another animal?!!! WHY would you let that happen!!!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Im not going to watch it!
BUT can you report is?
Is it in the UK?
and why was it filmed?

I just cannot understand humans no more


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I am not going to look.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

It's a picture....apparently an owner was walking her cav when it was attacked by a 'pitbull', and has been rushed to the emergency vets....it's no anybody i know personally. Just a pic and story shared on fb. 
I certainly hope it has been reported to the police....


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

If that was my dog being attacked I would have stamped on it's head or used my keys in its eye. I don't think I could stand and take pics while it's happening.

The Cavalier in the pics is home, no major injuries just puncture wounds. Very very lucky dog.

The owner got bit too and she's also had her wounds treated.


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## heartagram (Oct 12, 2012)

Didn't click it but I hate this sort of thing on facebook! saw a picture of boiled alive dogs in china the otherday on my feed and it just left me in a flood of tears, for stuff like that I would like to remain ignorant for my own sanity tbh, because in the reality of things humans are evil and theres not much I can do about it.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Honestly....you really don't want to. 
I feel so upset.....that's why i came on here....i can't get it out of my head now. I'm on the verge of tears from it. Never seen a pic so terrible before :crying:


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

DT said:


> Im not going to watch it!
> BUT can you report is?
> Is it in the UK?
> and why was it filmed?
> ...


As far as I can tell DT it was pictures taken by the owner or someone with the owner to ensure she could Identify the person and warn others.

The police are apparently aware.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I know! It horrible!!

It's like all the damage was leggy, the owner even took the time to photograph the cav after the attack instead of rushing it to the vet!?

Poor poor dog, I'd be beside myself if I was ever in that situation! Thankfully Rossi is big, bulky and can hold his own. Still heart breaking


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> If that was my dog being attacked I would have stamped on it's head or used my keys in its eye. I don't think I could stand and take pics while it's happening.
> 
> The Cavalier in the pics is home, no major injuries just puncture wounds. Very very lucky dog.
> 
> The owner got bit too and she's also had her wounds treated.


Oh where did you hear that? 
Hope it's true, poor, poor little dog. What a scary thing to encounter.

I don't know who took the pic....but you can see both owners holding their dogs in the pic, so there was obviously someone else there....maybe getting the pic for evidence? no idea.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Oh where did you hear that?
> Hope it's true, poor, poor little dog. What a scary thing to encounter.
> 
> I don't know who took the pic....but you can see both owners holding their dogs in the pic, so there was obviously someone else there....maybe getting the pic for evidence? no idea.


They where not owners of each dog. Both men where with the terrier. This is evident from the other pictures uploaded :/

Looks like owner literally did just stop and take pics??


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

oh was there more pics? 

Seems odd, but who knows what happened in the heat and panic of the moment? 
Maybe the owners instinct was to get a pic as evidence.....i know my instinct would be....save my dog, then worry about the police etc later. But who knows. 

Just hope the little guy/girl is ok.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> If that was my dog being attacked I would have stamped on it's head or used my keys in its eye. I don't think I could stand and take pics while it's happening.
> 
> The Cavalier in the pics is home, no major injuries just puncture wounds. Very very lucky dog.
> 
> The owner got bit too and she's also had her wounds treated.


If it were my dog the owner would be in A&E
NOt that I watched it! I daren't


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

I don't understand how any one would think to get their camera out to take a pic while their dog was being attacked. Give the attacking dog some good boots until it gets off and then take some pics if you want evidence.. 

The comments about Staffs (or pit bulls as they're calling them) are upsetting too. Another dog getting a load of flack because of his idiotic owner.. 

Glad the Cav is ok though..


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I don't understand how any one would think to get their camera out to take a pic while their dog was being attacked. Give the attacking dog some good boots until it gets off and then take some pics if you want evidence..
> 
> The comments about Staffs (or pit bulls as they're calling them) are upsetting too. Another dog getting a load of flack because of his idiotic owner..
> 
> Glad the Cav is ok though..


I wouldn't even think about my camera either! I don't care about evidence or who is going to cover vet fees etc. my priority would be my dog!

When Rossi and scooby had their first serious scuffle I had loads of adrenaline and literally thought about nothing other then Rossi right there and then!


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Oh where did you hear that?
> Hope it's true, poor, poor little dog. What a scary thing to encounter.


The owner has posted updates under the pic.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Unfortunately I have seen far worse, as Im interested in banned breeds (Dogs, Pitbulls) and also CAOs you get alot of their Holy day fights, its what they do over there for "fun". However I can safely say had this happened to my dog here i wouldnt have taken a picture, Id have had that dog with tha balls dragging it off


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I must say, i do fear one of the little pair getting attacked more than the labs, because, especially Sidney, 1 vicious snap, and he'd be gone! At least the labs are big enough to hold their own while i helped....Sidney and Skye wouldn't stand much of a chance. 

It is sad that these owners give the staffies/pit types a bad name! 
Marley is so soft...he gets bossed around by Sidney, we have made damn sure that he has been brought up properly and knows how he is expected to behave. 
I'd be mortified if my dogs attacked another dog. 

It's a sad thing that people are getting scared to walk their dogs, either from being attacked like this, or theft.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

It just doesnt add up,if that was your dog in another dogs mouth you would be in there trying to do something..time for pics in heat of the moment ,the cav looks as though its almost out of it with the pain,poor dog.

I dont even want to think about what else could be going on here.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> It just doesnt add up,if that was your dog in another dogs mouth you would be in there trying to do something..time for pics in heat of the moment ,the cav looks as though its almost out of it with the pain,poor dog.
> 
> I dont even want to think about what else could be going on here.


i was thinking bait dog tbh


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

But then why would the owner have updated about the dog? 

It does seem a little odd....but the dog is ok, which is most important.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

DollyGirl08 said:


> But then why would the owner have updated about the dog?
> 
> It does seem a little odd....but the dog is ok, which is most important.


Your dog has a bull breed locked onto it. Do you

A: try and get it off

B: take a pic to express you horror while your dog SCREAMS

no brainer for me.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Starlite said:


> i was thinking bait dog tbh


Agree only a pair of feet by the cav 


DollyGirl08 said:


> But then why would the owner have updated about the dog?
> 
> It does seem a little odd....but the dog is ok, which is most important.


maybe its a story to get the pics shown?


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I know what I'D do....but people all react different. 
It does seem very odd. 
But i'm confused if it was set up...why has the 'owner' updated on how the dog is doing and about the police having been for a statement etc?


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Really don't know.....there does seem to be a large amount of Asian people.....

Feel terrible for that poor little dog. That pic where the tongue is blue is what is stuck in my head....awful...just awful.

Also feel sorry for the bully, it must be so frustrated, obviously being goaded into going after other animals.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> *Agree only a pair of feet by the cav *maybe its a story to get the pics shown?


shows upset and desperation, doesnt it?


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## heartagram (Oct 12, 2012)

playing the devil's advocate here but perhaps they were failing to get the dog off and in a panic decided to take pictures to make sure there was evidence to prosecute the guy or whatever? I guess everyone reacts differently under extreme stress?

I hate dog attacks they're my number 1 fear when I walk out the door for a walk, as like dolly says, chi's wouldn't stand 5 seconds!!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Starlite said:


> i was thinking bait dog tbh


Same


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

On the plus side..it appears that the cav has recovered and will be ok, physically at least.

Maybe one of these days the government will get off their ar$e long enough to do something serious to stop these things happening....perhaps like having REAL consequences for it.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

heartagram said:


> playing the devil's advocate here but perhaps they were failing to get the dog off and in a panic decided to take pictures to make sure there was evidence to prosecute the guy or whatever? I guess everyone reacts differently under extreme stress?
> 
> I hate dog attacks they're my number 1 fear when I walk out the door for a walk, as like dolly says, chi's wouldn't stand 5 seconds!!


Really hope so


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

heartagram said:


> playing the devil's advocate here but perhaps they were failing to get the dog off and in a panic decided to take pictures to make sure there was evidence to prosecute the guy or whatever? I guess everyone reacts differently under extreme stress?
> 
> I hate dog attacks they're my number 1 fear when I walk out the door for a walk, as like dolly says, chi's wouldn't stand 5 seconds!!


Unfortunatley my dog has been attacked more than a few times. My last Malamute was same sex aggressive and a local neighbour thought it would be funny letting their bossy male Yorkie out to run at him, thinking I could hold him back. Nero was 105lbs, a male dog however small lunged at his throat, the resut waas horrific. I had rope burn from the lead being torn out my hands, I saw my dog shake this Yorkie side to side and heard it screaming. My first reaction was to get my dog to LET GO.
4 people ran out of my neighbours screaming, I threw myself on my dog and others wrestled his mouth till he let, go. The dog was limp and blood was everywhere. Thankfully after 3 weeks in the vets the Yorkie survivrd but ive never forgotten the fear and utter terror.

How do you photograph it or worse, enjoy it?


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

See, that wasn't your fault, you had your dog on a lead, the man shouldn't have allowed his dog to run at yours, he could have had his dog killed! Idiot.

That is something i can't understand, how people do this as a 'sport', and enjoy it. This is what would give me nightmares. It is one of the worst things that could ever happen. 

I remember when Sandy went to pick up a ball off the grass and a staffy 'had her', just a bite to her nose, a bit of a gash, but i was shaking and crying. A full blown attack, i don't know what i'd do. Certainly NOT even consider getting pictures anyway.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

DollyGirl08 said:


> See, that wasn't your fault, you had your dog on a lead, the man shouldn't have allowed his dog to run at yours, he could have had his dog killed! Idiot.
> 
> That is something i can't understand, how people do this as a 'sport', and enjoy it. This is what would give me nightmares. It is one of the worst things that could ever happen.
> 
> I remember when Sandy went to pick up a ball off the grass and a staffy 'had her', just a bite to her nose, a bit of a gash, but i was shaking and crying. A full blown attack, i don't know what i'd do. Certainly NOT even consider getting pictures anyway.


As Ive said unfortunately due to my interest in CAOs ive had people add me on FB and alot of their fights pop up. Its normal to them. I cant see any good in it it, but they film it to show off their dogs. Did any of you ever see the Argintino that was muzzled and held by 2 people? He had a "name" like 360, he was held that way because he had gotten hold of a little boy that got to close and killed him. They dont even go for human friendly, just killers!


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Gosh no...sounds terrible though! 

I just can't understand the mentality of these people, like, what kind of wiring does their brain have for them to be like this? 

I could never hurt an animal, i feel guilty for shouting at mine! 

Makes me speechless


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Someone on my facebook has just posted a link....i really wish i hadn't seen it.
> It is a picture that is going to haunt me....i am lost for words...Gosh i won't be able to sleep tonight after seeing this.
> It is a little cavalier that is being attacked....it is awful. Please don't look if you don't want to be really upset.
> 
> ...


I've stopped looking at links like this, coz I know how much it would upset me.

Please don't think I'm having a go at you, but I wondered why you put this link up, knowing it would upset people? Fair enough you put a warning, but people don't take warnings seriously as sometimes they can just be to a funny dog pic, with a silly caption.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

In all the years i've dealt with dog fights (I mean I deal with handbags almost daily and serious fights once every few weeks at work) not once have I ever stood there and taken a photo. I have seen a fight between a DA bull terrier and a Staff, it was not nice and went on for almost 10 minutes as the owners tried desperately to get them apart (it was at a dog show, the bull terrier owner was a judge and the dog had escaped from his car) the bull terrier owner ended up using a metal pole to knock out/kill (I have no idea, I just know the dog was on the floor after it). Not once did anyone stand there and take a photo, people tried to help get these dogs apart.

I'm sorry but you take photos or video AFTER you have got the dogs apart, not between. It just doesn't sit right with me that you'd take a photo of your dog being attacked.

I feel bad for the cavalier and the staff. :nonod:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Didn't look at the link, saw one of a dead cat on FB last night, three 'men' proudly holding it - makes me so mad these things are posted. My daughter said people post them to get the perpetrators recognised and hopefully get their comeuppance but I'd rather not see them and you can't avoid it while scrolling down. 

Those kind of people are sick and a danger to humans as well as animals when they begin to tire of animal torture, just as many series killers have.


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## shamans (Jun 15, 2012)

I can understand how tough that picture must be for some of you guys to see.

Unfortunately, I'm used to far worse considering where I live. Stray dogs suffer the worse.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Starlite said:


> i was thinking bait dog tbh


My overall suspicions were that this photo was staged.

Not enough hands on (intervention) in the picture.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Stupid idiots who share these things.

I didn't click it because dogs being hurt upset me. Not many things do.


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## purpleskyes (May 24, 2012)

I have to agree with others that it actually looks like ckc is being used as a bait dog. To me in the picture it looks like it's being held tight to the legs of that guy by the lead in place for the other dog to attack?


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> It just doesnt add up,if that was your dog in another dogs mouth you would be in there trying to do something..time for pics in heat of the moment ,the cav looks as though its almost out of it with the pain,poor dog.
> 
> I dont even want to think about what else could be going on here.





Starlite said:


> i was thinking bait dog tbh





purpleskyes said:


> I have to agree with others that it actually looks like ckc is being used as a bait dog. To me in the picture it looks like it's being held tight to the legs of that guy by the lead in place for the other dog to attack?





Zaros said:


> My overall suspicions were that this photo was staged.
> 
> Not enough hands on (intervention) in the picture.


It crossed my mind too, but when you read the comments from the owner and her friends and look at her profile, i'd be sure that it was a genuine attack and she wanted to get some evidence. A bit of a stupid thing to do while your dog is being attacked imo. To be honest, she looks like the type of woman who would leave those two men to sort the fight out and meanwhile she could take some pics for evidence.. (She looks very lady like... lol sorry if that offends anyone) Ok, maybe two guys could handle a powerful staff better than she could, but if that was my dog being attacked i'd be in there like a savage beast kicking ass and not giving a crap if I get bitten to save my boys (and I am very soft and placid normally.. wouldn't say "Boo" to a goose stylee).. In the heat of the moment with adrenaline pumping I doubt i'd even notice any injury to myself and definitely wouldn't have the thought to get a camera out. But hey ho.. what's done is done, and the Cav is ok... That's the main thing.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

If someone repeatedly shares distressing photos on my FB I block them. Simples. It`s not necessary. It does no good. It is gratuitous violence. 
I think the fact the CKCS suffered only minor injuries tells us a lot. If one dog seriously attacks another I would expect major tearing and crushing, particularly if the aggressor were a lot bigger.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

DollyGirl08 said:


> *Honestly....you really don't want to*.
> I feel so upset.....that's why i came on here....i can't get it out of my head now. I'm on the verge of tears from it. Never seen a pic so terrible before :crying:





DollyGirl08 said:


> *Someone on my facebook has just posted a link....i really wish i hadn't seen it. *
> It is a picture that is going to haunt me....i am lost for words...Gosh i won't be able to sleep tonight after seeing this.
> It is a little cavalier that is being attacked....it is awful. Please don't look if you don't want to be really upset.
> 
> ...





sezeelson said:


> *How awful! Why on earth would anyone enjoy sharing that photo on Facebook...? *


I haven't looked so don't know the full extent, but I have to say, in the nicest possible way, if it's so upsetting, if you wish you hadn't seen it, if people are wondering why anyone would share it on facebook... Why share it here?

I understand wanting to expressing distress but sharing the link seems to be doing exactly what the people sharing it on facebook are doing.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Come up on my facebook feed too

No idea why this guy hasn't been prosecuted? Anyone actually bothered to contact the police?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

It never occurred to me stand there and take a photo when my dog was attacked. Had he been seriously injured then obviously photos of the wounds would have been taken but not photos of the actual fight itself! My priority was to get the dogs apart, not take pics of them. Seems a very odd thing to do.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Facebook has a report function. I'd report it.

I clicked through the rest of the pictures and the whole thing is highly suspect IMO. Especially given that the caption reads:


> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places


Funny that her dog is at the e-vet yet he was standing there for a photoshoot after they got the "pit bull" off him. I can see taking pictures at the vet or after he gets patched up, but you'd think that they'd be in a hurry to load the dog up and rush him to the vet if he were that badly off. Yet instead they're wasting time taking pictures. Strange...


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Im sorry but that cavs owner is just a complete and utter tw*t!! Even if she did want to raise aweness, do it after you have your dog at the vets. 

Pictures would be the last thing on my mind if a dog got hold of mine, i love all animals but i would do what ever i could do to get said dog of my baby


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Really don't know.....there does seem to be a large amount of Asian people.....
> 
> Feel terrible for that poor little dog. That pic where the tongue is blue is what is stuck in my head....awful...just awful.
> 
> *Also feel sorry for the bully, it must be so frustrated, obviously being goaded into going after other animals*.


Not necessarily, some of them are aggressive to other dogs without being 'goaded'. Friends of mine, decent couple, church-goers, had a Staffy who would attack other dogs. They'd had him from a pup, he was well socialised, taken to training classes but it didn't make any difference. Their other Staffy is a total sweetheart, as was the new one they got after the aggressive one died from old age. They kept him leashed and muzzled to protect other dogs.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Defo needs looking into and i guess the only way for that to be done is reporting it.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Facebook has a report function. I'd report it.
> 
> I clicked through the rest of the pictures and the whole thing is highly suspect IMO. Especially given that the caption reads:
> 
> Funny that her dog is at the e-vet yet he was standing there for a photoshoot after they got the "pit bull" off him. I can see taking pictures at the vet or after he gets patched up, but you'd think that they'd be in a hurry to load the dog up and rush him to the vet if he were that badly off. Yet instead they're wasting time taking pictures. Strange...


I did look.. it does seem strange.. and for a body language reading expert like you  the blokes don't seem that fussed about getting their dog off... leaning in rather than back ? And who has their personal FaceBook page open to the public these days ?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> Defo needs looking into and i guess the only way for that to be done is reporting it.


I have reported it, there are young people who use fb and i know my nieces would be very upset if that popped up and they saw it


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Not necessarily, some of them are aggressive to other dogs without being 'goaded'. Friends of mine, decent couple, church-goers, had a Staffy who would attack other dogs. They'd had him from a pup, he was well socialised, taken to training classes but it didn't make any difference. Their other Staffy is a total sweetheart, as was the new one they got after the aggressive one died from old age. They kept him leashed and muzzled to protect other dogs.


I'll second this. Not everyone who has an aggressive dog wants it or deserves it and as long as they manage it properly don't deserve the rough-ride they can get from others.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

diefenbaker said:


> I'll second this. Not everyone who has an aggressive dog wants it or deserves it and as long as they manage it properly don't deserve the rough-ride they can get from others.


My OH has a boxer cross staff, she is lovely but is very DA, she is from the rspca and he has tried everything to help her but nothing is working, i think now it is just a case of managing it


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

In regards to taking pics of him after the attack, she may have taken them while waiting for someone to go collect the car? I know in the comments under the pics she said he was unable to walk.

Not defending, as I said I would have stopped at nothing to get the dog off my dog and then I would have given the owners a what for too, but everyone reacts differently when panic strikes.

If any of our dogs get hurt my hubby stands there frozen with panic while I'm straight in to sort it out.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

diefenbaker said:


> I'll second this. Not everyone who has an aggressive dog wants it or deserves it and as long as they manage it properly don't deserve the rough-ride they can get from others.


I'll third it. The last thing I wanted was an aggressive dog and I certainly never encouraged Ruperts behaviour or goaded him to attack. He became aggressive thanks to situations like this one. One too many attacks landed me with a dog who'd get in there first.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> It crossed my mind too, but when you read the comments from the owner and her friends and look at her profile, i'd be sure that it was a genuine attack and she wanted to get some evidence. A bit of a stupid thing to do while your dog is being attacked imo. To be honest, she looks like the type of woman who would leave those two men to sort the fight out and meanwhile she could take some pics for evidence.. (She looks very lady like... lol sorry if that offends anyone) Ok, maybe two guys could handle a powerful staff better than she could, but if that was my dog being attacked i'd be in there like a savage beast kicking ass and not giving a crap if I get bitten to save my boys (and I am very soft and placid normally.. wouldn't say "Boo" to a goose stylee).. In the heat of the moment with adrenaline pumping I doubt i'd even notice any injury to myself and definitely wouldn't have the thought to get a camera out. But hey ho.. what's done is done, and the Cav is ok... That's the main thing.


That's what confused me, the comments and updates seem genuine.

I can't stop thinking how scared the poor cav must have been


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

jetsmum said:


> I've stopped looking at links like this, coz I know how much it would upset me.
> 
> Please don't think I'm having a go at you, but I wondered why you put this link up, knowing it would upset people? Fair enough you put a warning, but people don't take warnings seriously as sometimes they can just be to a funny dog pic, with a silly caption.


I posted it because i saw it when scrolling up on my fb, and it really upset me. So who else to talk to than people who understand the horror of what happens and will understand why i was upset, and talking on here made me feel a bit better. 
I wish i hadn't seen it, but somebody had shared it on fb. 
I put the warning and said it was terrible so people could decide not to look if they didn't want to.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I'll third it. The last thing I wanted was an aggressive dog and I certainly never encouraged Ruperts behaviour or goaded him to attack. He became aggressive thanks to situations like this one. One too many attacks landed me with a dog who'd get in there first.


I agree with that.

I mean that this one seems like it is encouraged to be aggressive, obviously can't be sure, but it seems like it.

I did report and block the picture.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I have seen this on 2 or 3 of my 'friends' walls on FB - I believe it was in Biddenham Bedfordshire looking at the location on the photos. 

Quite frankly disgusting. 

This is why I like walks in the middle of nowhere.

If that was Millie I would not be taking photos. There's a reason my dog walking willies are steel toe capped.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Playing devils advocate:

It's possible neither owner saw it coming, a spat that rapidly escalated.

The owner's of the bull breed look like they're doing all they can to separate. The lad with the dog on the lead in the last picture looks visibly shocked

Lastly if it's true the little dog was OK after a vet visit, the Bull breed was holding back.

Horrible thing to happen, but not ready to condemn either owner as "Thugs", There's no reason to suppose that after this, the other owner's won't take the appropriate precautions.

Recently a woman in the park lost the end of her finger trying to separate two dogs. They were both hers. Doubt she saw that coming either.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sosha said:


> Playing devils advocate:
> 
> It's possible neither owner saw it coming, a spat that rapidly escalated.
> 
> ...


Iv not seen any more photos are there any more you can post so i can see them?


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## Weezawoo (Aug 5, 2012)

I haven't looked at the photo because I just can't 

I see these pictures on facebook so often and they really upset me. Some people share it because they are 'trying to do good' by making people aware but I just find it so distressing to look at I scroll as fast past as possible.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well I didn't open the link but it's on my fb too so have seen it.  It's in Bedfordshire somewhere.

She took photo's because the guy was threatening to run off and leave their dog, two men were trying to separate them. She initially tried to stop the attack and got bitten by the attacking dog which held the cav for 25 mins. There was nothing she could do and wanted the pics as evidence because this dog has done similar before. Bear in mind the cav owner had already been bitten so she was powerless to do anything further. It's known in the area and people want it destroyed, as it has bitten a person now the police are involved. It wasn't deliberately set on the cav, it's just not controlled and that's why people want it off the streets - understandable. 

The pics have been posted to show the gen pub in order that someone knows where the guy and dog live so as police can take action.

Don't know what he's doing holding it's ears  he'd have been better off lifting it's back legs and using the wheelbarrow technique. The person who posted on my fb has a Staff herself and is fed up with owners like this getting her dog a bad name!


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I didn't open the link but I definitely would not be standing around taking photos. I would be doing everything in my power to rescue my dog, even if it meant seriously injuring the attacker.

ETA: cross posted Malmum.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Hrm... those are some pretty steady shots for someone who had been bitten...


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

The usual hysterics are having flights of fancy on FB. It is now a Bait Dog with people Cheering it On. 
Do these people not have lives?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Well I didn't open the link but it's on my fb too so have seen it.  It's in Bedfordshire somewhere.
> 
> She took photo's because the guy was threatening to run off and leave their dog, two men were trying to separate them. She initially tried to stop the attack and got bitten by the attacking dog which held the cav for 25 mins. There was nothing she could do and wanted the pics as evidence because this dog has done similar before. Bear in mind the cav owner had already been bitten so she was powerless to do anything further. It's known in the area and people want it destroyed, as it has bitten a person now the police are involved. It wasn't deliberately set on the cav, it's just not controlled and that's why people want it off the streets - understandable.
> 
> ...


Do you know this to be fact or is this just what people have been saying in comments etc?

In the photos the cav is in multiple different positions and owner is still taking photos. In one pic the bull terrier has the cav by the tip if the paw and the only people attempting to seperate the dogs seem to be the men with the bull terrier?

When I serperated a fight I got badly bitten and I didn't even realise until I had managed to get the dogs apart and both where safe. With all that adrenaline and desperation to save the animal you don't stop to think until it is all over.

I still think something is not quite right about all of this.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok another devils advocate post here..

If the owner had been bitten why not post pics of that too? Surely you would want pics of everything?

Sorry something about this doesn't sit right at all with me.

I just hope that the dogs involved recover well. Going by the pics of the cav after the vet the wounds don't look as bad as they could have been. That bully was most certainly holding back


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Ok another devils advocate post here..
> 
> If the owner had been bitten why not post pics of that too? Surely you would want pics of everything?
> 
> ...


Oh definitely! The cav only suffered puncture wounds to the legs, thankfully no breaks and is recovering! Bloody lucky cav!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> Do you know this to be fact or is this just what people have been saying in comments etc?
> 
> In the photos the cav is in multiple different positions and owner is still taking photos. In one pic the bull terrier has the cav by the tip if the paw and the only people attempting to seperate the dogs seem to be the men with the bull terrier?
> 
> ...


Yeah... my BS-o-meter is going off big time...

From what I can tell the attempts by the terrier's owner to get their dog off the cav seem genuine. Meanwhile the cav's owner is taking pictures instead of tending to her dog. I just can't fathom that...

The caption on the initial picture has changed too. Now it's a staffyX and the dog was deliberately set on the cavalier?

First caption:



> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places


Now changed to:


> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull cross with a staffie??. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of agressive behaviour! they should not be aloud out off their leads, nor be pets and not walked in public places. Dog fighting is againts rules and clearly this dog was set up for it! the owner must take resposibility!! do you know him?


BTW, I'm not saying for a minute that the terrier's owners aren't irresponsible for not controlling their dog and of course they should take responsibility. 
I'm just really confused as to how the cav's owners are handling this...


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I would like to say it wasn't a bait dog if you look at the rest of her pics, it's sat on the sofa with her 2 kids and there was more than 2 people at the scene.

Can't see somebody that bakes lovely cakes be involved with something like that, to my reckoning scum don't bake!!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

I had noticed the title change too, seems all a bit odd to me really.

At least the cav hasn't got stitches or anything (none are visible in the pic) so hopefully it will be a quick recovery.

I know people cope with shock in different ways, but this doesn't seem like a shock reaction to me. Too much doesn't sit right...

But then without being there who knows what actually happened.
As they say there are always 3 sides to the story :nonod:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Maybe the Cav owner is a normal average Joe owner and just didn't have a clue how to react?

The staffs owner took control and she let him? (I can imagine she didn't want to go near it!)

I think the whole situation is very very sad.  Even more so as its really not far from me. 

I hope if this dog is known locally for not being under control then the owner gets what for. He is certainly now all over FB 

You never know when a relaxing walk could turn nasty - its so important to have an idea of what to do. Whether in the heat of the moment you do or not is another thing but to be aware of the risks. 

This is why I always avoid walking in parcs and recreation grounds as there usually a higher concentration of dogs and I prefer walks where I don't see a soul


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I prefer walks where I don't see a sole


Walking barefoot is not advised.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

I very rarely believe anything/ photos or otherwise on Facebook!


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I think this is just going to turn into the usual hate campaign 

I actually cannot believe someone would stand and take photos of their dog being attacked! Disgusting! Whether they were bitten or not, also it isn't just one photo she quickly took, there are a number. When Jake cut his side open, I didn't even think of taking a pic... my first, and main concern, was getting him to the vets... not to take a pic! Obviously pics help in a situation such as this for evidence, but to take them DURING the attack??? 

Also, the dogs injuries were relatively minor considering the kind of damage this dog could have inflicted... So, I don't believe this was a savage attack especially if it apparently did go on for so long... I also wonder if the woman was bitten, there is a pic on her page of her finger wrapped up because she cut it on a slicer... I certainly hope she doesn't pass that off as a bite to the police. I'm not saying she will, but I find it odd that she posts a pic of her finger when it has been cut from a slicer, but not when she has been bitten...

It also does look as though it is the attacking dogs owner who is the actually trying to stop the attack! They might have been irresponsible for having the dog off lead, but at least they didn't stand back and do nothing! I do not, and will not, believe the comments written by her friends, and people she knows... they have an obvious bias. 

I am glad the dog is ok, and I hope this doesn't affect him mentally.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Does all look abit suspicious doesnt it? Although alot of people are welded to their camera phones these days (even stopping to take pictures in disasters) so maybe it was a natural reaction for that person to take pictures?
Also if it was a straightforward attack then not panicking and holding the dogs rather then pulling them apart probably saved the cav from worse injury.
Still, not a nice thing to put on a public forum.....


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Iv not seen any more photos are there any more you can post so i can see them?


You can, or could scroll backwards - show previous.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

My Max was a lovely friendly dog until one day in the park this shar pei mix dog came running up to him then full attack. I wasn't there but my OH was. He managed to get the dog off. Now Max is a different dog,he will go for any dog. I have to be very careful with him. He is never off lead in parks..In fact I have to tell people to keep their dogs away if they are off lead and coming up to max. Diesel was different never looked for trouble but if a dog decided to come up to him, he would let them know he wouldn't back down. When we took them both out together...Well it was a pack thing. Dogs Never came near.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Taken from the owners facebook profile.



> Thank you for all of those that have shared my dog photos. Spot is home. He is not very happy and clearly in pain. Has had several stitches in different parts of his body and is severely sedated. He hasn't moved much since 6 pm. I have just managed to give him some treats and he ate them. Still had nothing to drink. I will be back at the vets tomorrow morning. For those interested I took the photos because I was bitten while trying to separate the dogs. The staffer locked on my dog for over 25 minutes and no matter of force could get him out. There were 2 man that come and helped when one of them said " this dog is going to dye " my first instinct was I need proof of what is happening here so I got my phone out and snapped away. There wasn't much else I could do at that point. The 2 men also have forced this guy to come forward to I could take his picture as he was ordering to run away with his beast. I have reported to the police because I don't think dogs aggressive like this one should be out loose without a collar nor a muzzle. I am in shock and my dog is crying his eyes out in his bed.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Then why is she posting pictures of the two men that came to HELP as the ones to watch out for and report?! Oh I'm so confused by her posts!!

And if the cav was being savaged for 25 minutes, how is he still alive?!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Then why is she posting pictures of the two men that came to HELP as the ones to watch out for and report?! Oh I'm so confused by her posts!!
> 
> And if the cav was being savaged for 25 minutes, how is he still alive?!


Exactly! A very vicious bull breed could kill a cav in no time, the injuries do not look amazingly horrific, nor do they look like it was being attacked continually for almost HALF AN HOUR!!! I mean really.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think they meant that the staff grabbed hold of the cav and it took 25 minutes for them to be able to prise it away.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I know it all seems very strange and i myself couldnt take pics in heat of the moment like that but say its ligit then them photos are going to come in handy.

Iv only seen the one photo on here so i cant comment on the other photos your have seen.

I wonder if the attack looks worse than it was in the pic as like your all saying 25 minute attack there would be no cav left or very seriously ragged.

Maybe the tiltle was changed fro pit to pit x as people have been saying 'how do you know it was a pit?' so she had to change it?

I dont know but its very sad,and i feel sorry for the attacker dog what life could this dog have with idiot owners.


I have just been shoping and there was a woman with a 6 month old ddb x it was massive it was pulling to greet everyone who walked past,there was a man with a tiny yorkie the woman with this big dog let the dog go over to the yorkie :nonod:.The man with the yorkie looked very worried the stupid woman did nothing to get her dog under control and if that big dog had wanted to it had ample chance to kill that yorkie.

I just thought it was very stupid she was obviously trying to socialise the dog but i would not invade someone eles space like that we all know yorkies can be snappy little lions so if it had done that how would that big dog have reacted?Could have been very scary silly silly woman.

Then she let this dog pull right over to my 4 year child i mean wtf i dont want to have my child near a huge dog dont know i told my husband to move my child asap,i dont know what she thought to that i hope she took a hint tbh,she just turned round and rewarded her dog with a treat ..good dog for what? doing as it pleases?

I said to OH with a idiot owner like that it will prob only end in tears for the dog.

This dog was massive it looked much bigger than a ddb it looked like an over grown pit bull if that makes sense really was huge.

Sorry for the long post


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Okay, she has a picture of a man with very muddy pants captioned, "If you ever see this guy please stay away and report his dog." Yet in the subsequent pictures, this same man is clearly one of the two men trying hard to get the terrier off the cav. 

I don't know what really happened, but I'm having a very hard time giving this person much credibility. I know people respond to shock differently, but that is a lot of time to stop and take pictures - there are several both during and after - instead of tending to your own injured dog....


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

And to add... that photo of the man with muddy pants now has over 2200 shares. If he was one of the two men who came over to HELP her, not the owner, poor guy is sure learning a lesson about no good deed going unpunished...


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

It's a horrific picture. 

The look on the Cavs face is heart breaking. 


I also think maybe just holding the pit, was probably one of the best things that could have been done, if it was tugged, pulled, kicked etc... it would grip on more and cause more damage... maybe the photo was taken for evidence?


Sorry (not sorry), but I hope that dog is destroyed. There is no place for a dog like that in this world.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Im sorry but i smell bullshit. I had rope burns on both hands and was still trying to get my dog off, adrenaline gets you through.
You would have keys, stab its eyes, wheelbarrow it by the balls, you dont stand for 25 minutes watching your dog like this. You just dont.

FYI I have no issue with bull breeds (im in love with Pitts actually), I dont care what breed the dog is


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the things I am struggling to understand is that on FB people are saying that he is involved in dog fighting, has trained his other dogs to attack etc... Yet at the same time they are appealing to people to find out who he is... So, how do they know he is involved in dog fighting if they don't even know who he is??


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

dandogman said:


> It's a horrific picture.
> 
> The look on the Cavs face is heart breaking.
> 
> ...


I have a dog similar to this, would kill given the chance. That cav would have been far worse had my dog got hold of it.

There is places in this world for dogs like that thank you, they are just as loving to their humans as the next and I'm slightly offended by what have said here.

It's down to the owner to be responsible and to respect the dogs needs/issues. My dog has not attacked another dog since he has been in my care and the OWNER of this dog should be punished for this incident not the poor dog...


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

It's all just a bit.... odd  Something not quite right here with the entire story. 

My first thought on seeing just the first photo was "WTF is she doing, just stood there taking a photo?" and my thought now, after reading more and seeing the rest of the photos is exactly the same.

It just beggars belief that she stood there, snapping away while her dog was being attacked like that. It's poor little face 

All very strange indeed.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

dandogman said:


> Sorry (not sorry), but I hope that dog is destroyed. There is no place for a dog like that in this world.


Right...

Because you're aware of the entire sequence of events and all the information surrounding what happened. Of course you're qualified to assert which dogs should should be destroyed.


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## alice2012 (Oct 6, 2012)

Who in there right mind would stand there and take a picture of that = (


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

just had a link on FB 
Watch out for this man with his fighting dog when out on a walk with your dogs, he gets his dog to attack, in Bedfordshire area. Share!










also 
WARNING - 15th March'13 - Dog Attack, Ouse Valley Golf Course, Biddenham, Bedfordshire.

WANTED - The man holding the dog lead in the blue coat.

Crime Reference Number - JH/9478/2013 
Call 101 reporting the CRN

This was an unprovoked attack on a spaniel by a dog that was loose off the lead. The dog looks like a pit/staff type dog. The Police are involved as the man gave false details. If you recognise any of the people in these photos please contact Mafalda Clewlow.

Updates on Spot from Mafalda the owner:- 
Just got a call from the vet. He is awake and apart from several deep wounds there is no major damage to his leg or his lungs. He was a very lucky dog. The vets reckons its a miracle after the way he arrived at the surgery earlier today. I am picking him up at 6pm and will let you know. Thank you all for the support. I am reposting this picture to the local papers as this guy did not give me his correct details. Spot is in shock and with strong pain killers and antibiotics but at least we are having him back!

Just back from the vet after spending a night with him crying...he had another injection of morphine to take away his pain and I saw the x rays. Scary to just how much tissue has been damaged in his leg and under his body. Poor little dog was totally ripped apart in his skin. The vet said he is like a piece of cheese his skin with to many little holes! He is calm again now with the morphine.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I dont know what others think but when i see that photo of that guy he looks like an idiot who would make his dog the way it is.The poor dog will pay the price.The fact he gave false details sounds alarm bells.That is one bloomin clear photo.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

sianrees1979 said:


> just had a link on FB
> Watch out for this man with his fighting dog when out on a walk with your dogs, he gets his dog to attack, in Bedfordshire area. Share!
> 
> also
> ...


Oh super, another Facebook witch hunt... marvellous 

Just because it's on Facebook doesn't <gasp> _automatically_ make it true. There seems to be some confusion over whether the chap in the muddy jogging bottoms is one of the people that actually *helped* or the owner of the attacking dog. If he is the former then I'm sure he's going to be delighted that his photo is now spread all over Facebook with calls for his blood.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> I dont know what others think but when i see that photo of that guy he looks like an idiot who would make his dog the way it is.The poor dog will pay the price.The fact he gave false details sounds alarm bells.*That is one bloomin clear photo*.


Isn't it? God forbid he might be innocent of any wrong doing...

Personally I think the guy looks utterly shell shocked but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions...


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I haven't read all the post sorry if I'm repeating anything.

First I heart goes out to the poor little Spaniel it was so like when Dillon was attacked we were lucky Dillon is much bigger and his thick coat saved him.

I didn't think it looked like a Pitbull it seemed to small, I thought it was a Staffy.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Isn't it? God forbid he might be innocent of any wrong doing...
> 
> Personally I think the guy looks utterly shell shocked but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions...


He probably is shocked at what just happened.Its just why give false details if hes dont nowt wrong.Then again its all hear say isnt it.Leave it for the police to sort.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm sorry but the description of the wounds do not match the picture of the dog after seeing the vet.

It has also gone from not having the owners details to now he gave the wrong details 

And after the owner has called for a complete cull of all staffs and pits I'm finding it hard to have any sympathy for her.

Yes this is a terrible thing to happen for the dogs involved, but to use it as an excuse for a witch hunt is a pretty low thing to do :nonod:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I would have though seen as the police are involved , it's not particularly a wise thing to have it posted all over FB


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

What I find disgusting is some of the comments towards this guy when none of us know what exactly happened. So many of us (not PF us bt generally us, including FB) believe in Deed Not Breed... yet so many are willing to make assumptions on this guy based on how he looks. That is just as wrong IMO.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

The impression I get looking at the photos is that it is genuine, and not some bait dog or staged. The owner of the CKCS probably took a backseat from helping her dog because, IMO, the fellas in the photos look like they could do a far better job of getting the bull breed off than the owner of the CKCS. I think if my dog was being attacked and some blokes came over to help, I would let them handle it and risk them getting bitten, plus men are generally stronger than women (physically). Maybe the female owner, in a moment of clarity, decided that rather than stand there and do nothing whilst the blokes tried to separate the dogs, she'd actually get some evidence.

I'm not so sure why there is a witch hunt against the men. Incidents like this happen all the time, dogs get attacked every day and although it's wrong and irresponsible and we shouldnt have to fear our dogs getting attacked, I cant help but think the men seemed to have been a big help in the situation. They could have just run off and left the female owner to try and sort it out but they didnt, they helped save the dogs life.

That sounds like i'm sticking up for the men and assuming they are the ones who are responsible for the bull breed, the incident should never have happened in the first place, so i'm not sticking up for them, I just dont necessarily agree with the hate campaign.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> The impression I get looking at the photos is that it is genuine, and not some bait dog or staged. The owner of the CKCS probably took a backseat from helping her dog because, IMO, the fellas in the photos look like they could do a far better job of getting the bull breed off than the owner of the CKCS. I think if my dog was being attacked and some blokes came over to help, I would let them handle it and risk them getting bitten, plus men are generally stronger than women (physically). Maybe the female owner, in a moment of clarity, decided that rather than stand there and do nothing whilst the blokes tried to separate the dogs, she'd actually get some evidence.
> 
> I'm not so sure why there is a witch hunt against the men. Incidents like this happen all the time, dogs get attacked every day and although it's wrong and irresponsible and we shouldnt have to fear our dogs getting attacked, I cant help but think the men seemed to have been a big help in the situation. They could have just run off and left the female owner to try and sort it out but they didnt, they helped save the dogs life.
> 
> That sounds like i'm sticking up for the men and assuming they are the ones who are responsible for the bull breed, the incident should never have happened in the first place, so i'm not sticking up for them, I just dont necessarily agree with the hate campaign.


A breath of fresh air - Rep for you!!!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> What I find disgusting is some of the comments towards this guy when none of us know what exactly happened. So many of us (not PF us bt generally us, including FB) believe in Deed Not Breed... yet so many are willing to make assumptions on this guy based on how he looks. That is just as wrong IMO.


This is probably aimed at me and to be fair you are right and i shouldnt have said what i thought he looked like as you cant possibly know that from a pic i truly hope i am wrong.

I dont know i just hope it gets sorted one way or another.

Does anyone feel the staff/pit has a grim future if caught been called a pit? I mean wont the owner have to prove it isnt one?


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## lucyandsandy (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't need to look as my husband showed me earlier, apparently it happened in the town next to mine. Even my husband was shocked and he doesn't like dogs, doesn't even like Sandy most the time!


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> The impression I get looking at the photos is that it is genuine, and not some bait dog or staged. The owner of the CKCS probably took a backseat from helping her dog because, IMO, the fellas in the photos look like they could do a far better job of getting the bull breed off than the owner of the CKCS. I think if my dog was being attacked and some blokes came over to help, I would let them handle it and risk them getting bitten, plus men are generally stronger than women (physically). Maybe the female owner, in a moment of clarity, decided that rather than stand there and do nothing whilst the blokes tried to separate the dogs, she'd actually get some evidence.
> 
> I'm not so sure why there is a witch hunt against the men. Incidents like this happen all the time, dogs get attacked every day and although it's wrong and irresponsible and we shouldnt have to fear our dogs getting attacked, I cant help but think the men seemed to have been a big help in the situation. They could have just run off and left the female owner to try and sort it out but they didnt, they helped save the dogs life.
> 
> That sounds like i'm sticking up for the men and assuming they are the ones who are responsible for the bull breed, the incident should never have happened in the first place, so i'm not sticking up for them, I just dont necessarily agree with the hate campaign.


My thoughts too. It does seem genuine and I reckon the op has pointed out the owner even though he did stay around and help get his dog off the other because at the end of the day he needs to be found and made to muzzle his dog in public. It could be a 'first time the staff type has ever done this' who knows? There always is a first time. He just needs to make sure there isn't a second time.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Oh super, another Facebook witch hunt... marvellous
> 
> Just because it's on Facebook doesn't <gasp> _automatically_ make it true. There seems to be some confusion over whether the chap in the muddy jogging bottoms is one of the people that actually *helped* or the owner of the attacking dog. If he is the former then I'm sure he's going to be delighted that his photo is now spread all over Facebook with calls for his blood.


He deserves to be caught, if only to keep the dog on lead AND pay the vet bills. Why should an owner like this get off scott free?

Don't know about the fb stories, it's been shared on my page three times now, prob because I'm on three Mal groups I suspect and have lots of dog owner friends. Some say he was about to leave his dog, other's he set the dog on it but either way it was off lead which it shouldn't be. Admitted he got his dog off but isn't that expected?

The guy up the road knows his dog is DA after the attack on Flynn but still walks it without a collar or lead, saw him yelling at it to come back a couple of days ago when it was chasing a cat and he's fast too. Another idiot who doesn't give a damn about anyone else's pets!


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't believe the other men were just passing by, I believe they were with him... I think the women is just trying to make the dogs owner look worse... What she has said doesn't add up. Just my opinion, of course.


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I really don't know what to think now. 

I do know that the pic where the cav has it's tongue hanging out and it's going blue is a pic i wish i hadn't seen, i really just can't get that image out of my head now,
The pics of it with the cone on it's head recovering shows that the wounds don't look too severe, i think maybe the pics of the attack looked worse than it was, as the actual wounds luckily don't look severe. 
Hope the poor little guy recovers ok, but i reckon it might have alot of fear of other dogs now.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think just in the fact that the guy gave false details shows what kind of person he is!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Malmum said:


> I think just in the fact that the guy gave false details shows what kind of person he is!


Or he could have been incredibly flustered after breaking up a dog fight and handed out a wrong phone # or other by mistake.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Or he could have been incredibly flustered after breaking up a dog fight and handed out a wrong phone # or other by mistake.


Tbh i doubt this,iv know my details for 27 years and i couldnt forget my name or dob.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> Tbh i doubt this,iv know my details for 27 years and i couldnt forget my name or dob.


Or maybe he panicked thinking his beloved pet could be seized and put to sleep for the incident. Most people do not know the law on dogs in detail.

We shall never know...


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> Or maybe he panicked thinking his beloved pet could be seized and put to sleep for the incident. Most people do not know the law on dogs in detail.
> 
> We shall never know...


Now this i can believe.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Tbh i doubt this,iv know my details for 27 years and i couldnt forget my name or dob.


Or the woman who took the pictures could have written the information down wrong. It's pretty easy to hear one thing and write something else down entirely - even when you're not flustered.

Either way, I certainly don't think it's fair to judge someone based on the information given out by ONE person who clearly has an agenda.

I don't think the pictures are staged, but the way everything has been presented is really uncool IMO.

I for one would be hugely interested in the terrier owner's version of the events.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Or the woman who took the pictures could have written the information down wrong. It's pretty easy to hear one thing and write something else down entirely - even when you're not flustered.
> 
> Either way, I certainly don't think it's fair to judge someone based on the information given out by ONE person who clearly has an agenda.
> 
> ...


Yep,well innocent till guilty.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Yep,well innocent till guilty.


Not on FB apparently! Yikes! The picture has over 6000 shares now. Crazy. And we don't even know for sure what *really* happened. He's being called a dog fighter, that he set his dog on the cav intentionally, that he gave out wrong information which "proves" his guilt... It could all be true, OR it could all be the hysterical rantings of an upset dog owner. Or something else entirely. For all we know, the cav could have started it all!

Point is, we simply don't know. But plenty seem prepared to throw the book at this guy and destroy his dog based on a few photos.... Just sad all around


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Tbh i doubt this,iv know my details for 27 years and i couldnt forget my name or dob.





ouesi said:


> Not on FB apparently! Yikes! The picture has over 6000 shares now. Crazy. And we don't even know for sure what *really* happened. He's being called a dog fighter, that he set his dog on the cav intentionally, that he gave out wrong information which "proves" his guilt... It could all be true, OR it could all be the hysterical rantings of an upset dog owner. Or something else entirely. For all we know, the cav could have started it all!
> 
> Point is, we simply don't know. But plenty seem prepared to throw the book at this guy and destroy his dog based on a few photos.... Just sad all around


Precisely!

This owner had already said a number of things that do not add up, so I for one am not believing anything she says... I think a lot of what she says is just to make the other dog owner look bad, and she (and many others) is calling for SBTs to all be killed, and that people shouldn't own them! (and pits too but I haven't included them since they are already illegal... well, 'pit type'). Too many things seriously don't add up for me...


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Off topic from facebook

"Photo not removed
DetailsThank you for your report. We carefully reviewed the photo you reported, but found it doesn't violate our community standard on graphic violence so we didn't remove it."

Ok so my friends photos of breast feeding are seen as too shocking and are removed but this isnt? hmmm


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

This story is now featuring in a story in the mail on Sunday online. The owner, who was briefly interviewed for this, seems pretty certain the guy in the pictures is the owner of the dog...she was there so should know surely?


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I couldn't understand why anyone would put those pics up either. If they are looking for the man, just the one with him and his dog would do. I worried it's the man spreading it looking for work!? In a 'look at what my dog did isn't it hard' kind of way?

If someone's dog has just attacked your dog, or maybe if you are a passerby, do you then run round to the front of him to take a photo when he's got a dog like that??


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## Dwavid (Apr 28, 2012)

Right I've read all of these comments, the comments on FB and the news article on the Mail online. And the story just does not add up!

1. If the man is not know then how does anyone know he trains dog for fighting? The police, RSPCA and other dog organisations all say that the difficulty in stopping dog fighting is that it is a very close nit group and difficult to get into in order to get evidence. Yet this woman who does not know this man knows he fights dog! that I fine odd.

2. All these comments and no one has raised the issue of whether the pitbull/staffy/staffy X started the fight! We only have her word that it was unprovoked. All too often the staffy gets the blame when 2 dogs fight. I know I have 3x staffies and have had dogs attack mine and I've had the owner of the other dog make comments about mine when theirs started the fight.

3. The man in the photo she says is the owner is the same as the one of the two she says were passing by and stopped to help. That doesn't add up.

4. If a dog fighter who had trained his dog to fight set his dog upon a normal pet dog then the fight would not last for 25 minutes, it would be much shorter and the pet dog would be dead.

5. Also why would a dangerous dog fighting bloke allow his picture to be taken, would it not be easier for him to of 'taken' her phone/camera after all its not like he couldn't of taken it from her is it. 

6. Gave the wrong details? why would a criminal dog fighter stand around giving details over? 

With points 5 & 6 I'd like to stress that I've know some criminal types e.g. drug dealers, burglars and your common thug. and not one of them would of stood there allowing you to take pictures of them nor would they or given you any details.


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

Only the people there know what happened and to be honest any one of the theories could be wrong (or right).
Basically, the poor little dog was injured, but thank God injury wise is ok now. Hopefully with love and care will get his confidence back, poor thing.
I personally don't think it was a fighting dog as the KC would have been ripped to pieces.
I really love Face book, but it can be a dangerous and sick thing. A while ago up to date photos of the Jamie Bulger killers on there, How could anyone be certain it was them and not someone innocent,who would then be persecuted (the police have actually threatened action on anyone who even shared those photos).
FFS even people putting pictures of their own injuries and operation scars on there, I find that kind of twisted???
Also I was following one young boys story who had DMD (my friends son has this awful disease) and next thing the father had put photos of his son, who had passed away, in his coffin in the funeral home, I couldn't believe it, I had glanced before I realised what they were and that is burned in my brain now....
So I try to only have people on there I know, and hope they dont share sick stuff.....


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Not on FB apparently! Yikes! The picture has over 6000 shares now. Crazy. And we don't even know for sure what *really* happened. He's being called a dog fighter, that he set his dog on the cav intentionally, that he gave out wrong information which "proves" his guilt... It could all be true, OR it could all be the hysterical rantings of an upset dog owner. Or something else entirely. For all we know, the cav could have started it all!
> 
> Point is, we simply don't know. But plenty seem prepared to throw the book at this guy and destroy his dog based on a few photos.... Just sad all around


Horrific as the incident is, I agree that there's no way of knowing which dog started it. Every time I see a report of a dog on dog attack, I by and large wonder which dog was the aggressor. The SBT has a couple of puncture wounds by its eye, the ear looks damaged and possibly the neck. Usually it seems to be the winning dog that gets the blame.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Horrific as the incident is, I agree that there's no way of knowing which dog started it. Every time I see a report of a dog on dog attack, I by and large wonder which dog was the aggressor. The SBT has a couple of puncture wounds by its eye, the ear looks damaged and possibly the neck. *Usually it seems to be the winning dog that gets the blame.*


That's what I was told by the owner of the dog that went for Beauty. That I was just upset and wanting my bills paid as my dog lost!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

BoredomBusters said:


> That's what I was told by the owner of the dog that went for Beauty. That I was just upset and wanting my bills paid as my dog lost!


I'm not familiar with the incident, apologies if you'd mentioned it earlier in the thread as I can't recall it. Reading my post back it's unclear what I meant. I was referring more to when these incidents are reported in the media or are put forward by one party as in this one. Your situation is different as you were there yourself and the other dog owner was an idiot with no common decency. I certainly would not agree with what they said.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

If the guy on the pictures is innocent (and I accept he may well be) he needs to get his side of the story out before someone decides he needs some of the same treatment the little dog got


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> Horrific as the incident is, I agree that there's no way of knowing which dog started it. Every time I see a report of a dog on dog attack, *I by and large wonder which dog was the aggressor. The SBT has a couple of puncture wounds by its eye, the ear looks damaged and possibly the neck.* *Usually it seems to be the winning dog that gets the blame.*


On the pictures she posted on FB, there is a clear shot of the CKC getting a good bite on the SBT's face while the SBT has his leg.

I too wonder how this all started. Not for nothing, it seems the CKC was off leash too. I can tell you as the owner of "scary" dogs, mine have been accosted on several occasions by "cute" breeds. Twice by chihuahuas, and once by a yorkie.

The yorkie incident was particularly interesting because it happened in the rally ring, and the yorkie was dismissed from the show and reported, meanwhile my 80 pound big, scary looking black dog was commended by the judge, spectators, AND the yorkie's owner for his composure. 
In other words, the fact that he did NOT retaliate was seen as exceptional. 
It would have been well within the range of normal had my dog responded with teeth to the yorkie's behavior, and this is a dog who could have killed that yorkie with one bite. He dispatches rabbits bigger than that!

So here's the thing, I'm not your average dog owner, my dog has more than potty training under his belt, and the incident happened right under the nose of 2 other not-average dog people who intervened instantly and effectively. 
Put that same incident at the local park with average dog owners with average experience, and you have a lovely Daily Mail story about a vicious "pit bull" type dog attacking a poor innocent yorkie. Make me an ethnic looking man in his twenties and now my dog is a fighting dog.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Dog owner took pictures of her King Charles Spaniel being mauled by pitbull and posted them on Facebook in a bid to catch attacker's owners | Mail Online


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2013)

shetlandlover said:


> Dog owner took pictures of her King Charles Spaniel being mauled by pitbull and posted them on Facebook in a bid to catch attacker's owners | Mail Online


I just tried to comment on that, it seems my comments are being moderated tho


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2013)

Hrm... this is interesting. On one of her profile pics of the cav, she says the dog came up to hers, her dog wagged his tail and went to sniff the other dog's butt, THEN the dog launched itself at hers. That's a far cry from her claim that the dog was set on her dog...



> its started from nowhere! my dog was snigging the grass on the ground about 5 metres from me! and this dog come running from a different area! *spot went on to wag his tail and sniff his bottom* as he does and the other dog went mad for him and lounched attack!! it was crazy stuff


versus



> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull cross with a staffie??. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of agressive behaviour! they should not be aloud out off their leads, nor be pets and not walked in public places. *Dog fighting is againts rules and clearly this dog was set up for it!* the owner must take resposibility!! do you know him? I would like to thank the 2 great men that were crucial in saving spot. i don't know your names but your honour and help was essential to my dog's life. please let me know your names so I can thank you personally.


(Bolded mine)
So, if Spot had time to walk up to the dog and sniff his bottom, how was the other dog set up to attack Spot?

FWIW, PLENTY of dogs will object to having a nose shoved up their bum.


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## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

It's about time that serious action was taken against owners when there dog is allowed to attack another. At present it's not taken seriously until a person gets bitten.

The owner is responsible for the dog, if the dog is likely to cause such serious injury to another animal then it should be muzzled. If the owner doesn't have the intelligence to do this then they have no business owning a dog.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2013)

WhatWouldSidDo said:


> It's about time that serious action was taken against owners when there dog is allowed to attack another. At present it's not taken seriously until a person gets bitten.
> 
> The owner is responsible for the dog, if the dog is likely to cause such serious injury to another animal then it should be muzzled. If the owner doesn't have the intelligence to do this then they have no business owning a dog.


It's not that simple. I highly doubt one dog was "allowed" to attack another. Sure, I suppose it's _possible_ the owners of the terrier intended for their dog to attack the cav, but IME a far more likely scenario is that they are your typical ignorant, irresponsible dog owners who were just as surprised by their dog's behavior as the CKC's owner was.

And FWIW, that wasn't *that* bad of an attack. I know it looks horrific in the moment, but I don't see any pictures of drains or stitches, and considering the photos the CKC's owner is so quick to share, I would think she would be more than happy to show photos of more gory injuries if there were some. As it is, all I see are a few punctures and scrapes. My males did worse than that to each other when we first rescued our male dane. Now they're best of buds...

Speaking of, all 3 of my dogs are more than capable of causing serious injury to another dog. "Likely" is a relative term. If your dog is acting inappropriately, the "likelihood" of mine causing damage just increased. So when you say "*if the dog is likely to cause such serious injury to another animal then it should be muzzled*," I say not so fast. 
a) define "serious" injury,
b) define "likely."

That said, owners need to be held responsible, absolutely. In this case it could be that BOTH owners were being irresponsible.


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## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

My opinion is that if your dog is likely to attack another dog which approaches it then it should be muzzled. It's the responsible thing to do.

I don't agree with the argument that others should not approach you. I'm not saying its perfectly ok for people to let there dogs run up to yours, in a perfect world they would check with you and have a great recall, but if your dog is the one that might cause harm to another then it should be muzzled.

I'm not going to argue the point further because I've found from experience that people are very defensive of their view and the conversation goes nowhere, like discussing religion or politics.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

WhatWouldSidDo said:


> My opinion is that if your dog is likely to attack another dog which approaches it then it should be muzzled. It's the responsible thing to do.
> 
> I don't agree with the argument that others should not approach you. I'm not saying its perfectly ok for people to let there dogs run up to yours, in a perfect world they would check with you and have a great recall, but if your dog is the one that might cause harm to another then it should be muzzled.
> 
> I'm not going to argue the point further because I've found from experience that people are very defensive of their view and the conversation goes nowhere, like discussing religion or politics.


I agree that if you know your dog is DA it should be muzzled, but what if this was the first time the SBT has attacked? How do we know that was the one to start it? Are you saying that all dogs who are physically able to inflict damage should be muzzled?


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

WhatWouldSidDo said:


> My opinion is that if your dog is likely to attack another dog which approaches it then it should be muzzled. It's the responsible thing to do.
> 
> I don't agree with the argument that others should not approach you. I'm not saying its perfectly ok for people to let there dogs run up to yours, in a perfect world they would check with you and have a great recall, but if your dog is the one that might cause harm to another then it should be muzzled.
> 
> I'm not going to argue the point further because I've found from experience that people are very defensive of their view and the conversation goes nowhere, like discussing religion or politics.


I aIso agree... The dog should of been muzzled, no question about that. If I let my rottie off lead knowing that he is capable of attacking another dog That is my fault. My rottie is stronger then most small dogs.He could kill another dog.So therefore I always think what could happen. It is my job not to let my dog hurt any other dogs.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> (Bolded mine)
> So, if Spot had time to walk up to the dog and sniff his bottom, how was the other dog set up to attack Spot?
> 
> FWIW, PLENTY of dogs will object to having a nose shoved up their bum.


I know that Hannah objects to this and doesnt enjoy the experience at all. The difference is that she objects by growling and then air snapping, she has never bitten another dog for it or latched onto it and needed to be pulled apart!!
IMO if this is how your dog responds to another dog (esp a smaller, weaker one) being a little bit rude then you should keep it under control!
Its like those chavvy types that go to punch you coz you supposedly looked at them funny!!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

DollyGirl08 said:


> Someone on my facebook has just posted a link....i really wish i hadn't seen it.
> It is a picture that is going to haunt me....i am lost for words...Gosh i won't be able to sleep tonight after seeing this.
> It is a little cavalier that is being attacked....it is awful. Please don't look if you don't want to be really upset.
> 
> ...


*Report it an whoever posted that on your news feed delete them. x*


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

momentofmadness said:


> *Report it an whoever posted that on your news feed delete them. x*


It has been reported. 
I won't delete the person who posted it as she's a friend, and posted it thinking it would help catch the person who owns the dog. 
It's a shame these pics have to be taken in the first place.

I'm just glad the little dog is ok.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2013)

rottieboys said:


> I aIso agree... The dog should of been muzzled, no question about that. If I let my rottie off lead knowing that he is capable of attacking another dog That is my fault. My rottie is stronger then most small dogs.He could kill another dog.So therefore I always think what could happen. It is my job not to let my dog hurt any other dogs.


But ALL dogs are capable of attacking another. Does that mean that you think all dogs over a certain size need to be muzzled?



catz4m8z said:


> I know that Hannah objects to this and doesnt enjoy the experience at all. The difference is that she objects by growling and then air snapping, she has never bitten another dog for it or latched onto it and needed to be pulled apart!!
> IMO if this is how your dog responds to another dog (esp a smaller, weaker one) being a little bit rude then you should keep it under control!
> Its like those chavvy types that go to punch you coz you supposedly looked at them funny!!


Hrm... Perhaps the terrier did growl and air snap and would have left it at that, but then the cav snapped back, instead of appeasing and backing down, which in turn caused the situation to escalate to the point of the terrier out and out fighting?

Of COURSE all dogs need to be kept under control. ALL dogs.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rottieboys said:


> I aIso agree... The dog should of been muzzled, no question about that. If I let my rottie off lead knowing that he is capable of attacking another dog That is my fault. My rottie is stronger then most small dogs.He could kill another dog.So therefore I always think what could happen. It is my job not to let my dog hurt any other dogs.


Do you keep your rottie on lead and muzzled at all times just because he is capable of attacking another dog? Surely by that rationale all dogs should be on lead and muzzled? It is all of our jobs to safeguard both our own and others' dogs, but muzzling just because they have teeth seems a little over cautious....


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

If a dog came up to Chester and shoved its nose in his danglies..he will kick off . ..but I will never muzzle him because of it


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## Lel (Mar 21, 2012)

I've seen these photos shared on my newsfeed too 

I do not know what kind of owner gets a phone/camera out to take photos of their dog being attacked. It seems like she left it for strangers to try and help  If it were me I would be doing all I could to separate them or at least be ready to scoop my dog up when the attacker had released its grip.

I also note it is another case of *that breed* being demonised which is a real shame as no one really knows what led to the attack.

In addition the injuries to the CKCS seem to be relatively minor. A powerful dog like that is bound to cause some injury if a scrap breaks out but the fact that the wounds were so minor suggests that either the dog was not intending to cause serious injury or the owner was able to get the dog under control quite quickly.

The news article says the attack went on for 25 minutes; I would not expect many dogs to live after that kind of ordeal so I do doubt her story is entirely accurate.

Also I feel for the men whose face has been published all over Facebook when according to the owner these men were simply trying to save her dog.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I am in Bedfordshire the county where this incident is meant to have happened. 

Its all over social media  not only individuals fb pages but businesses to. People are reporting it every few hours so it constantly in peoples news feeds. 

I'm not sure what I think about it to be honest. 

I certainly haven't and won't be sharing it


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

This happened somewhere close to me! I was out with the dog walker early afternoon and she told me about it then! It's terrible! Apparently the owner of the cav couldn't get them apart so took pics of thE other owner and incident as evidence! It's terrible :-(


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

some of the comments that are being made on some of the groups its shared on are amazing. everything from all bull breeds should be banned down to the owners race and how he should go back to his own counrty  

havent shared because something doesnt seeem right. 

someone said the cav went up to sniff the dog is that right? but then on other pics someone else is saying the dog was set told to attack. 

i havent commented on the pics and am doing my best to ignor them when they show on my time line because i wasnt there and therefor i dont know the full story.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

People with vested interests seem to be making up the events as they go along. I don't believe any sourcable information is out there saying the Cavalier went for a sniff . . . just someone suggesting that is what might have happened. If anyone know differently please correct me.

As someone who has had my dogs set upon numerous times without them sniffing anything I hate that assumption. Dogs do attack unprovoked. Anyone in denial of this are fooling themselves.

For me this is not about breed, but it is about deed. Mine have been attacked, unprovoked, by a St. Bernard, a Pyranees and as well a status dog mix. I have no problems with any of those breeds. I do have problems with those individual dogs if they are not under strict control, and, in the two cases where there was a history, their owners as well for knowing about their dogs and not managing that properly.

Don't know if this account has been posted yet -

"A terrified dog owner took pictures of a horrific 25-minute attack on her beloved King Charles spaniel - as she desperately tried to drag a pitbull off her pet.

Mafalda Clewlow believed her dog, Spot, was just moments from death, clamped in the pitbull's jaws, and wanted to capture evidence of the ordeal and the dog's owner so he could later be traced.

The 40-year-old mother-of-two, married to Ade, 46, a former lieutenant colonel in the British Army, had been walking her dog on a public footpath when it was suddenly set upon in the vicious attack.

The shocking incident, near Ouse Valley golf course, Biddenham in Bedfordshire, only came to an end after two good Samaritans stepped in to help wrench the dogs apart. . . "​
Dog owner took pictures of her King Charles Spaniel being mauled by pitbull and posted them on Facebook in a bid to catch attacker's owners | Mail Online

CC


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I would not muzzle my dog, he has been attacked more times than I care to remember, all these dogs have approached us. If I muzzled my dog how can he protect himself?

If a socialable dog approaches mine, mine is okay. If a dog approaches mine that is challenging then mine will react. imo the responsibility is on the owner whose dog approaches another dog without invitation.

There have been times when the other dog has been on a lead and lunged for Duke barking being very vocal, but Duke hasn't reacted. These dogs usually calm down over time and we end up walking together. The latest one is a CKC, he is fine with Duke now.

Any and every dog is likely to react badly to another dog. As I was told by the police dogs fight that's what they do. My argument is the police will only intervene with dogs that are aggressive with other dogs if the aggressor is a powerful breed, other than that they will not intervene unless a dog any breed bites a person.

Of all the dogs that have attacked Duke none have been a powerful breed. Now if the roles were reversed and Duke attacked these dogs, owners would want my dog pts. It makes me angry that other owners with benign breeds think its okay for their dogs to chew on mine - and have the audacity to tell me to muzzle my dog.

At the end of the day I am entitled to walk my dog in a public park - but I don't because I was fed up with Duke being attacked.

Having said all that there is nothing worse than being there when your dog is being attacked and I hope the owner and her dog are okay.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> People with vested interests seem to be making up the events as they go along. I don't believe any sourcable information is out there saying the Cavalier went for a sniff . . . just someone suggesting that is what might have happened.


Actually it was the cav's owner herself who said it. I copied & pasted straight from her FB.



> its started from nowhere! my dog was snigging the grass on the ground about 5 metres from me! and this dog come running from a different area! spot went on to wag his tail and sniff his bottom as he does and the other dog went mad for him and lounched attack!! it was crazy stuff
> Yesterday at 6:25pm


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> its started from nowhere! my dog was snigging the grass on the ground about 5 metres from me! and this dog come running from a different area! spot went on to wag his tail and sniff his bottom as he does and the other dog went mad for him and lounched attack!! it was crazy stuff


Thankyou for the source - so a sniff was had. It also establishes the attacking dog was the approacher.

So then the attacking dog is off the hook because the Cavalier didn't read its body language and went for a sniff?

Why?

My dogs are spaniels. As a generally friendly type if a dog runs up to them they expect a friendly dog and are not looking at the others body language closely for an attack stare. They will immediately offer their butts for a sniff and go for one themselves.

That can happen in the split second it takes a dog to decide to attack.

If I am out and a dog is off lead and approaches my dogs I also have a FULL expectation that dog can handle a sniff.

To suggest then that the Cavalier sniffing gave it responsibility in its own attack is off base IMHO.

CC


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> Thankyou for the source - so a sniff was had.
> 
> And you took that to mean that the dog didn't attack and is off the hook because the Cavalier didn't read its body language and went for a sniff


Nope. Nowhere did I say that. Nowhere have I said either dog is "off the hook". 

That's the thing, I'm not suggesting ANYTHING as far as what happened. I'm simply suggesting that we don't KNOW what happened. 
You can't build a case based on one very upset person's account. Just the fact that her dog was hurt is going to cloud her view of events tremendously.
Add in all the assumptions being made based on the dog's breed and the owner's ethnicity, and yeah... It's a mess.

Can you imagine being one of those good samaritans who's picture got over 6000 shares with the words "dog fighting" attached to it? She later recanted and clarified that the guys in hats were the helpers, but guess how many shares *that* post got? 61. Yup a measly sixty one posts saying "oops not those guys" compared to 6 THOUSAND posts painting them in a horrible light.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Originally Posted by comfortcreature 
Sorry. As I read backwards on the thread (which I am still doing) I got the impression from your post on page 14 that you believed this dog had reason to attack.



> "So, if Spot had time to walk up to the dog and sniff his bottom, how was the other dog set up to attack Spot?
> 
> FWIW, PLENTY of dogs will object to having a nose shoved up their bum."


What the photos DO show is that a dog was mauled by another. We DO know that much.

CC


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> Sorry. As I read backwards on the thread (which I am still doing) I got the impression from your post on page 14 that you believed this dog had reason to attack.
> 
> What the photos DO show is that a dog was mauled by another. We DO know that much.
> 
> CC


I said "object" not "attack". Plenty of dogs will _object_ to having their butt sniffed. That does not mean an attack is justified. It just means that the cav might not have been sitting there innocently minding his own business as suggested.
Because it's a cav vs. staffie we think the staffy must have been 100% the aggressor, and the cav must have been 100% innocent. But what if.... What if the cav stuck his nose up the staffie's butt, staffie growled, cav overreacts and launches at the staffie, and then the staffie overreacts to the cav and launches back? Why is no one considering this possibility?

My own two dogs: New rescue dane crashes in to resident dog while running by him. Resident dog objects, rescue dane objects to the objection, attacks, and gets a bite in. Resident dog counter attacks and leaves the dane worse off than himself. Resident dog is half the size of the dane, but strong and agile and knows how to handle himself. Who's the bad guy here? Or is it just a run of the mill dust-up that happens when you have more than one dog?

And no, we don't see a dog *mauling* another. That kind of extreme language is what I object to. Show me Spot's stitches and drains and broken bones, then we can talk maulings. Right now I see scratches and punctures, on BOTH dogs, which to me equates with a run of the mill dog-fight like the one between my own two dogs.

Just because a dog will give as good as he gets in a fight does not make that dog DA. Neither of my males wear a muzzle in public, because they don't NEED one. They both are perfectly fine with other dogs, will give fair warning if they're not, and are perfectly controlled.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Ouesi I have had a DA dog. I have managed this before (muzzled every time she was out) and I have little patience for those that make excuses for dogs that will maul another.

What the photos show is a mauling. I see a mauling. A mauling does not have to mean stitches and blood and gaping holes and large wounds. My dog that had both lungs punctured had barely a wound that could be seen. I have seen dogs killed that had not a bit of blood showing.

The word mauling indicates this was prolonged, that the biting was repeated . . . that it was hard to pull one off. Don't tell me it needs to mean an abundance of obvious broken bones and bloody wounds.

This was not a scuffle.

If the Cav peed off the other dog and there was a quick exchange the photos wouldn't show what they do.

This was not a quick scuffle with a couple back and forth bites. The photos show a prolonged mauling - a dog that wouldn't give it up and had to be pulled off - at least three times from the rear of the Cavalier from the photographs - and blood and punctures as well.

CC


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

The photos show the staffie biting the cav's leg. They also show the cav getting a pretty good bite in himself. 

Photos don't show duration. They don't show how effective (or not) the people involved were in breaking it up. For all we know they grabbed the wrong dog first and the other dog took the chance to jump back in - that happens in fights a lot too. 

You simply can't make these kind of determinations off of a few photos. 

We don't KNOW what happened. That's really all I'm trying to say. 
You know... the innocent until proven guilty thing? 

Seriously - if the staffie had been a cocker spaniel and the owner had been a white woman, like, show the SAME images, just change the staffie to a spaniel and the man to a white woman. Do you really think we would even be having this conversation?

I don't.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Why is no one considering this possibility?


Probably because we are familiar with this scenario in the UK. This is the very type of owner / dog that gives this lovely breed a bad name. I'm not saying he isn't the exception, but it is all very familiar and typical. Why, for instance, isn't the dog wearing a collar - something that is illegal in the UK.

We can split hairs and suggest what ifs, and I do feel for staffie owners, but they really need to stand back and realise that this type of owner/dog partnership is a real problem and common in the UK. That is the reason people jump to the conclusions they do.

I would also add that the lady owner is Portuguese so English is not her first language so reading things into her words (particularly under such emotional circumstances), is probably a bit of a red herring.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> The photos show the staffie biting the cav's leg. They also show the cav getting a pretty good bite in himself.


Where. I have them open on facebook right now.

I know that we don't know exactyly what happened.

What I am trying to say is that any dog that will jump back in or continue to hold on when someone is pulling it off is a problem. Period. In this case I can see with my own eyes which dog was jumping back in and which dog needed to be hauled off.

CC


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> This was not a scuffle.
> 
> If the Cav peed off the other dog and there was a quick exchange the photos wouldn't show what they do.
> 
> ...


not always true. my dog once had a scuffle with a ambull. it was lexis fault she jumped over the ambull twice -i was blocking and tryign to grab her - the third time she went to jump the bull grabbed her round the back leg pushed her on the floor and wouldnt let go. not the ambulls fault my fault for not getting her and lexis for not understanding the dogs growling ment p off (she still doesnt) the other dog wouldnt let go for about 10min. lexi faught back at first then gave up. lexis back leg after ward was a right mess and she needed stiches. looked like a lot of damage for a dog that was just holding her.

to me it was a scuffle no way a mauling.

again not saying this is what happened here with the cav.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

. . . and I would call that 10 minute encounter a mauling. It doesn't matter whose fault it is.

CC


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

why was it a mauling? she needed few stiches and was upwalking the next day. infact im pretty sure the only reason she needed stiches was because she was moving other wish he wouldnt of broken the skin. 

i guess i have a diffrent idea on what a mauling is to people on here.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> Where. I have them open on facebook right now.


Cavalier getting a good bite in (not that I blame him seeing as the other one has a hold of his leg):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...11065051103.2159450.1106163270&type=1&theater

Results of that bite now clearly visible:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...11065051103.2159450.1106163270&type=1&theater

The other thing I don't get is when the track pants got all muddy. During the fight they're clean, still clean as he's breaking up the fight, then the shot with his dog on leash show tons of mud. Where are the rest of the pictures that show how his pants got muddy?


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> why was it a mauling?


Because the dog would not let go of grip for 10 minutes and wouldn't let her go when she tried to escape.

That is not a scuffle.

CC


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree with CC. I would not dismiss such behavious as understandable. A dog may be fed up with another's behaviour, but a telling off is usually sufficient. To escalate it to do such damage so quickly and hold on (even if all the dog was doing was holding on) for 10 minutes is unacceptable.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> Because the dog would not let go of grip for 10 minutes and wouldn't let her go when she tried to escape.
> 
> That is not a scuffle.
> 
> CC


How do you know it was 10 minutes? Were you there? If so you should contact the police and let them know what you saw


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I agree with CC. I would not dismiss such behavious as understandable. A dog may be fed up with another's behaviour, but a telling off is usually sufficient. To escalate it to do such damage so quickly and hold on (even if all the dog was doing was holding on) for 10 minutes is unacceptable.


I'm pretty sure no one said it was understandable or acceptable. Just that we don't know for sure what actually happened.


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> Because the dog would not let go of grip for 10 minutes and wouldn't let her go when she tried to escape.
> 
> That is not a scuffle.
> 
> CC


she wasnt tryin to escape she was attcking back.



rocco33 said:


> I agree with CC. I would not dismiss such behavious as understandable. A dog may be fed up with another's behaviour, but a telling off is usually sufficient. To escalate it to do such damage so quickly and hold on (even if all the dog was doing was holding on) for 10 minutes is unacceptable.


not saying its acceptable but in no way is it a mauling. and he did tell her of but she paid no attention. as i said i did my best to get her to stop but she didnt. part of the reason shes on lead.



ouesi said:


> How do you know it was 10 minutes? Were you there? If so you should contact the police and let them know what you saw


there talking bout me i believe


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

ouesi said:


> How do you know it was 10 minutes? Were you there? If so you should contact the police and let them know what you saw


I was speaking about this.



littleangel01 said:


> not always true. my dog once had a scuffle with a ambull. it was lexis fault she jumped over the ambull twice -i was blocking and tryign to grab her - the third time she went to jump the bull grabbed her round the back leg pushed her on the floor and wouldnt let go. not the ambulls fault my fault for not getting her and lexis for not understanding the dogs growling ment p off (she still doesnt) the other dog wouldnt let go for about 10min. lexi faught back at first then gave up. lexis back leg after ward was a right mess and she needed stiches. looked like a lot of damage for a dog that was just holding her.
> 
> to me it was a scuffle no way a mauling.
> 
> again not saying this is what happened here with the cav.





littleangel01 said:


> she wasnt tryin to escape she was attcking back.


At first you said she gave up.

CC


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> I was speaking about this.
> 
> At first you said she gave up.
> 
> CC


what i said was - lexi faught back at first then gave up - meaning she was attacking him then she stop.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

. . . and it continued for 10 minutes, and her leg was a mess and needed stitches. Is that not right?

CC


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

the whole thing lasted 10min, she attacked his face front legs anything that was in her reach, he held her leg. she stopped two min after she was still he let go. she needed stiches because of how bad she was rolling around. he also needed one in his ear. 

didnt go into detail at first cuz i hate typeing on my phone,


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Was he holding her leg the full time? Would you not expect her to bite back at anything she could if he was latched on to her leg?

Again, I call that a mauling. I don't care if the dog is attacking back in defence of itself. A dog gripping and holding on and not letting go and causing wounds is mauling another dog.

If they are having a quick dust up . . . it is just that. A couple of short exchanges. I have six dogs. We have corrections here from one to another regularly. There is, however, no gripping, no holding and no rips, holes or tears. Usually teeth don't meet anything more than air.

I had two dogs that used to full out scrap - my Husky and another not appreciating each other - and we never had a single rip or hole.

My dad took a single gripped bite (with pull in the desire to rip) to his own thigh and was left bruised from his hip to his toe, bruises which took three weeks to heal, and we called that a mauling as well.

CC


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## littleangel01 (Jul 3, 2011)

he held her leg because she was attacking. she stopped he let go. and yes i expect her to defend her self i call that a fight not a muling.

as i said we have diffrent views on mauling. as i also said i wsnt there with the cav so no idea what happend (far as i no dog could of been set on him or the cav could of started it - id dont know). 

however the right amount of time has passed for me to be able to sleep with out having to worry about my concussion so im of to bed.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

This thread has once again become ridiculous. A guy who gives the wrong details is misheard, the situation is misread because of what the attacking dog was and now the race card is being played. For goodness sake get a grip, an innocent dog has been viscously attacked, its owner terribly traumatised and all anyone can do is protect the offending party. Now that's prejudice against the victims if ever I heard it!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> Thankyou for the source - so a sniff was had. It also establishes the attacking dog was the approacher.
> 
> So then the attacking dog is off the hook because the Cavalier didn't read its body language and went for a sniff?
> 
> ...


This; Kilo will get grumpy with prolonged pestering if he's on lead, but a sniff is fine. Grumpy being sitting down, walking away with me, growling, an air snap, barking if the dog is STILL there.



littleangel01 said:


> why was it a mauling? she needed few stiches and was upwalking the next day. infact im pretty sure the only reason she needed stiches was because she was moving other wish he wouldnt of broken the skin.
> 
> i guess i have a diffrent idea on what a mauling is to people on here.


I would call what happened to Lexi a mauling and what happened to the dog that's the subject of this thread a mauling, not a scuffle. Any wounds needing veterinary treatment that have been inflicted aggressively and aren't the result of one quick bite I would call a mauling. If either of those things had happened to one of my dogs I wouldn't hesitate to say they'd been mauled.

The Oxford Dictionary defines maul as:

(of an animal) wound (a person or animal) by scratching and tearing:
a man was mauled by a lion at London Zoo

treat (something) savagely or roughly:
the body was badly mauled in battle


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

Malmum said:


> This thread has once again become ridiculous. A guy who gives the wrong details is misheard, the situation is misread because of what the attacking dog was and now the race card is being played. For goodness sake get a grip, an innocent dog has been viscously attacked, its owner terribly traumatised and all anyone can do is protect the offending party. Now that's prejudice against the victims if ever I heard it!


Um, hello? Race card being played?! Have you not read the comments on the Daily Mail and the pictures? It's disgraceful!

The men who tried to HELP have their picture plastered all over FB with the suggestion that they're dog fighters.

Six THOUSAND shares incriminating these men, and a measly sixty two shares saying "oops, not those men, just the one without a hat."

Does nobody else have a problem with this?!

Does nobody else wonder what happened between the clean track pants picture and the dirty one?

Why is it far-fetched that she would have misheard the information or written it down incorrectly? I wrote down a number just yesterday writing a check and put a 9 instead of a 6. I wasn't even recovering from breaking up a dog fight. Heck I'm still putting 2012 on things - doesn't make me devious, just means I'm human.

All we have is ONE version of events. It may very well be exactly what happened, or there may be much more to the story. Generally one would reserve judgement until you have both versions of the story. That's not victim blaming, that's being fair.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

Malmum said:


> This thread has once again become ridiculous. A guy who gives the wrong details is misheard, the situation is misread because of what the attacking dog was and now the race card is being played. For goodness sake get a grip, an innocent dog has been viscously attacked, its owner terribly traumatised and all anyone can do is protect the offending party. Now that's prejudice against the victims if ever I heard it!


Who is defending anyone 

The WHOLE point is NONE of us know what happened... FFS that picture of the bully clamping on could have been a few seconds, it could have been minutes....The cav could have started it, the bully could have started it.... The cav could have escalated it, the bully could have escalated it...

No one knows, ALL we have is the muddled account of someone that is close to the dog that came off worse... That is ALL we know...

The story has been changed so much throughout the whole of this that I can't take anything as gospel........

But why not all jump on the bandwagon and convince ourselves we know who the "victim" was just by a few pics taken in the heat of the moment by someone that will be distressed :crazy:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

Not for nothing, there was a thread on here recently where a northern breed bit a *child* in the face, then went back for a second bite.

Posters wondered if the child had done anything to provoke the dog (like crying or making funny noises). Nobody called it victim blaming.

Posters wondered if the general excitement of the moment could have led to the bite. No one called it making excuses for aggressive behavior.

The owner of the dog wasn't accused of creating a vicious dog.

The story didn't end up in the Daily Mail.

The thread had 44 replies.
This thread has over 180.

I wonder why that is?


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Um, hello? Race card being played?! Have you not read the comments on the Daily Mail and the pictures? It's disgraceful!
> 
> The men who tried to HELP have their picture plastered all over FB with the suggestion that they're dog fighters.
> 
> ...


Completely, 100% agree with this. With bells on.

Re: the bit in bold. Yep, I too have a huge problem with this.

Sorry so short, just off out with Alfie but wanted you to know you're not alone in your thoughts. There's plenty of us here who feel the way you do.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I wonder why that is?


I don't normally comment on these kind of threads because they always end up divided between 'poor dog' or 'poor victim' depending on the stance of the poster.

But, from memory, perhaps the reason that the thread you mentioned didn't end up in the Daily Mail (or wherever) was because the owners of the child seemed to be understanding and didn't consider it an attack themselves. Weren't they at a rally?

TBH, I found the excuses given for the behaviour (that the child may have done something) just as wrong. But sometimes (quite often actually) you see the way the thread is going and it's pointless to post


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

Coffee said:


> Completely, 100% agree with this. With bells on.
> 
> Re: the bit in bold. Yep, I too have a huge problem with this.
> 
> Sorry so short, just off out with Alfie but wanted you to know you're not alone in your thoughts. There's plenty of us here who feel the way you do.


Thank you


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> What the photos show is a mauling. I see a mauling. A mauling does not have to mean stitches and blood and gaping holes and large wounds. My dog that had both lungs punctured had barely a wound that could be seen. I have seen dogs killed that had not a bit of blood showing.
> 
> The word mauling indicates this was prolonged, that the biting was repeated . . . that it was hard to pull one off. Don't tell me it needs to mean an abundance of obvious broken bones and bloody wounds.
> 
> ...


The photos prove nothing. The owner of the cav took the photos so could be vary biased to makes sure her dog looked completely innocent. No one knows what happened and no one is sticking up for anyone. It's all theory, a bit of story telling. That's all. You cannot determine the cause or results from these pictures or the owners comments.



comfortcreature said:


> Because the dog would not let go of grip for 10 minutes and wouldn't let her go when she tried to escape.
> 
> That is not a scuffle.
> 
> CC


Mauling: wounds caused by sctratching and/or tearing. Not from holding on? This is not a mauling in either case.

Your also forgetting different breeds have different attack styles. Bull terriers will hold on due to powerful jaws and the act of 'pinning' which is how they where bred a long time ago. Not generalising and not every bull terrier is the same but that extinct is still there in some.

This is no way a 'mauling' by definition and only your opinion so please accept that others will disagree.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

To all those who think the Cav may have been at fault and the staffy's response was understandable (assuming it wasn't an attack), then all I can say is I hope I never come across your dogs if that's what you see as the way dogs behave! 

No wonder we are become and anti dog nation and in danger of more legislation!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> To all those who think the Cav may have been at fault and the staffy's response was understandable (assuming it wasn't an attack), then all I can say is I hope I never come across your dogs if that's what you see as the way dogs behave!
> 
> No wonder we are become and anti dog nation and in danger of more legislation!


I think the confusion here is that no one is sure which dog actually instigated the fight rather then people sticking up for the bull breed and thinking its actions where understandable.

You can't blame a dog for acting like a dog and I personally believe it is reasonable for a dog to retaliate and protect itself should it feel the need. It's up to us humans to protect our dogs and prevent situations like this.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> I think the confusion here is that no one is sure which dog actually instigated the fight rather then people sticking up for the bull breed and thinking its actions where understandable.
> 
> You can't blame a dog for acting like a dog and* I personally believe it is reasonable for a dog to retaliate and protect itself should it feel the need*. It's up to us humans to protect our dogs and prevent situations like this.


Not to the extent that it's not - there is no place for that degree of injury inflicted being acceptable defence. Which is why I said no wonder people become anti dog when they hear people saying it is.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Not to the extent that it's not - there is no place for that degree of injury inflicted being acceptable defence. Which is why I said no wonder people become anti dog when they hear people saying it is.


I completely accept that,

But again we have no idea what happened. The cav only suffered puncture wounds which for the dogs involved i think says a lot.

For all we know this was a spilt second attack, the bull bit the cav, the cav bit the bull and the bull *threw a few more in being serperated.*

I've bolded this as this is no longer protecting itself. If you (the owner) cannot control your dog in situations of conflict like this then yes it is totally unacceptable and this is why I believe the bull owner, regardless of who or what caused this event, needs some education and a talking to. Also the fact that the dog had no collar on etc.

Personally I accept no forms of physical defence/offence from my pets. I promote growls and air snaps as acceptable warnings, largely due to my dogs aggression when I rescued him and having no warning as to when it would happen! 

I love bullies and I am upset by all of this as yet again it will reignite bully hate and justify people's fears of them. If you can't be responsible get a gold fish!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I will not look...do not the point of posting upsetting photos to anyone..except if itis a petition etc..?

and why someone was taking pictures instead of helping to save the smaller dog?
I would probably if having nothing else handy tried to use the shoe to whack or just tried to get hold of bulls lhind legs..if owner could get holed of the biting part...


this is how I saved my dog long time ago from GSD attack...


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Please use some imagination when considering how and why pictures were snapped. I find it incredulous that people keep going back to this point and can't figure it.

I have been in this exact situation, where there were larger people available to separate dogs and I had to move out and stand back as I was in the way.

If back then I had had a phone camera it would have been put to use.

CC


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Not to the extent that it's not - there is no place for that degree of injury inflicted being acceptable defence. Which is why I said no wonder people become anti dog when they hear people saying it is.


I'm not hearing anyone say that degree of injury is acceptable. 
Saying something is normal dog behavior doesn't mean you find it acceptable.

It's normal for dogs to mark things, doesn't mean you have to accept your male dog marking in your house. 
I certainly did not find it acceptable when my two males poked holes in each other. However, their behavior towards each other was well within the range of normal dog behavior and doesn't make them vicious monsters who need to be PTS. We simply worked on their impulse control, thresholds, and behavior around each other. Now they're fine. We havent' had any issues in years.

We tend to lose reason when it comes to dogs biting, but biting is just as normal a behavior as marking and humping and pulling on a leash.

Do people freak out over a greyhound who kills a cat? Do you know how hard that GH had to bite to kill the cat?
What about a hound who kills a rabbit? They're not air snapping that rabbit to death.

Biting, and biting hard is not only normal, it is bred for and desired in many breeds. Plenty of working breeds are prized for their bite.

I wouldn't condemn this dog just because of the way he bites. But then, nor would I condemn a person just because they look a certain way or speak with a certain accent.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

The BBC Look East lunch time news covered this story, there were 2 men who were trying to get this dog off the ladies dog(they were passer bys) the lady took the pics so the man and dog could be identified, it was these 2 men that probly saved the dogs life, 
Hopefully the man with the dog is caught very soon,


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> The BBC Look East lunch time news covered this story, *there were 2 men who were trying to get this dog off the ladies dog*(they were passer bys) the lady took the pics so the man and dog could be identified, *it was these 2 men that probly saved the dogs life, *
> Hopefully the man with the dog is caught very soon,


And for their efforts their faces are now all over facebook with a caption about dog fighting being illegal. I bet they're thrilled.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> The BBC Look East lunch time news covered this story, there were 2 men who were trying to get this dog off the ladies dog(they were passer bys) the lady took the pics so the man and dog could be identified, it was these 2 men that probly saved the dogs life,
> Hopefully the man with the dog is caught very soon,


But one of the people pictured trying to get the bully off is also pictured holding the dog on the leash....

So which was it, two passers by and she snapped a picture of one of them holding the dog (for what ever reason)

Or is it one passer by and the owner of the bully that is helping stop the fight?

On the picture of the man holding the dog on leash it says



> If you ever see this guy please stay away and report his dog!


Indicating he is the owner, that man is also one of the men trying to stop the fight...

Just to reconfirm that I do not find the "fight" acceptable, nor do I find the level of damage acceptable..
However I refuse to lay blame on anyone or any dog until some clear facts come out.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Biting, and biting hard is not only normal, it is bred for and desired in many breeds.


And that is why the government had a kneejerk reaction and brought in DDA banning certain breeds. And I think it's entirely understandable to question why a dog like this is necessary as a pet.

The bottom line is that this owner is probably typical of the average pet owner in the UK. She had one of the easiest breeds, she obviously loves her pet, but quite likely, that is the extent of her interest in dogs. I doubt she visits dog forums, doubt she spends most of her spare time training, competing, helping with rescue like most of the dog mad members on here do, so it's unrealistic to expect her to understand half of what posters on here are putting across. I've had people who claim they know dogs and have dogs all their life show an amazing lack of understanding of dog behaviour and body language. The ignorance of most pet owners is astounding, but that doesn't mean they can't take them for walks and enjoy them in peace, without the knowledge of dog behaviour that some on here are expecting. If you read between the lines, this is a typical pet owner response when faced with something as distressing as the attack.

The photo is now on Bedfordshire Police's facebook page with an appeal for information about him (and it has also been stated that the men wearing hats in the photograph were helping). So it is now in the hands of the police.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

And just to add, through their facebook appeal, Police now have the identity of the dog owner and can proceed with their enquiries.

Dare I suggest that without the facebook appeal they may well have still been looking and it would have faded away and nothing done?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> But one of the people pictured trying to get the bully off is also pictured holding the dog on the leash....
> 
> So which was it, two passers by and she snapped a picture of one of them holding the dog (for what ever reason)
> 
> ...


I agree b3rnie,why is the man pictured holding the dog if he was a passer by? Where was the owner then?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> And just to add, through their facebook appeal, Police now have the identity of the dog owner and can proceed with their enquiries.
> 
> Dare I suggest that without the facebook appeal they may well have still been looking and it would have faded away and nothing done?


No one is saying the Facebook appeal was bad, it was the way it was handled that was wrong.

Innocent men pictured and promoted as dog fighters and comments on how horrible and viscous bull breeds are and should 'not exist'.

That is what I think is wrong about the whole situation.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

we love bsh's said:


> I agree b3rnie,why is the man pictured holding the dog if he was a passer by? Where was the owner then?


If you go to the facebook page of the owner of the Cavalier here - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0.1106163270&type=1&theater#!/mafalda.clewlow - you will see a group of three photos a little ways down the page. In the photo on the right there is a man - no hat - holding the attacking dog by the ear and two men, in hats. In the comments (from Saturday) it mentions that the men in the hats are the ones helping.

CC


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> No one is saying the Facebook appeal was bad, it was the way it was handled that was wrong.
> 
> Innocent men pictured and promoted as dog fighters and comments on how horrible and viscous bull breeds are and should 'not exist'.
> 
> That is what I think is wrong about the whole situation.


I agree people shouldnt be taring all bull breeds with the same brush.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> If you go to the facebook page of the owner of the Cavalier here - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0.1106163270&type=1&theater#!/mafalda.clewlow - you will see a group of three photos a little ways down the page. In the photo on the right there is a man - no hat - holding the attacking dog by the ear and two men, in hats. In the comments (from Saturday) it mentions that the men in the hats are the ones helping.
> 
> CC


I know but that is not made clear on all the photos that have been shared well over 5000 times.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> If you go to the facebook page of the owner of the Cavalier here - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0.1106163270&type=1&theater#!/mafalda.clewlow - you will see a group of three photos a little ways down the page. In the photo on the right there is a man - no hat - holding the attacking dog by the ear and two men, in hats. In the comments (from Saturday) it mentions that the men in the hats are the ones helping.
> 
> CC


Thats a shame as i dont have fb.

In this case the woman should have got pics of the owner not helpers as how will that help trace the owner.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> Thats a shame as i dont have fb.
> 
> In this case the woman should have got pics of the owner not helpers as how will that help trace the owner.


The picture was of the owner holding the dog on lead. One of the helpers (wearing a hat - as both helpers were) was standing in the background and can be seen on a number of the photos.

Given the injuries and the attack, I suspect most members of the public would have stood back and not wanted to wade in. The owner did seem to be making a half hearted attempt to get his dog off (the dog was not wearing a collar), but for all we know, this didn't happen until the two passerbys tried to help (by this time the owner had already been bitten trying to get her dog away).


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> I know but that is not made clear on all the photos that have been shared well over 5000 times.


Are we reading the same posts? Seemed pretty clear to me when I first read it!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> And that is why the government had a kneejerk reaction and brought in DDA banning certain breeds. And I think it's entirely understandable to question why a dog like this is necessary as a pet.


rocco, the dogs where biting and biting hard are prized and bred for include not just the dreaded bully breeds, but also GSDs, dobermans, rottweilers, boxers, malinois, belgians, etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps you would like to question the members who own these breeds why they feel it's necessary to have a dog "like that" as a pet?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Are we reading the same posts? Seemed pretty clear to me when I first read it!


Could you link me please?

I genuinely cannot find where it says that? Unless its hidden somewhere in the comments?

Also, it really is not hard to scribble over someone's face on paint to make sure their identity stayed anonymous. I, would of been gutted if my face had been plastered all over Facebook regardless of what it was pictured with!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> If you go to the facebook page of the owner of the Cavalier here - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0.1106163270&type=1&theater#!/mafalda.clewlow - you will see a group of three photos a little ways down the page. In the photo on the right there is a man - no hat - holding the attacking dog by the ear and two men, in hats. In the comments (from Saturday) it mentions that the men in the hats are the ones helping.
> 
> CC


The original picture that was shared showed the two dogs and three men. It had the following caption


> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places


Which was later changed to:


> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull cross with a staffie??. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of agressive behaviour! they should not be aloud out off their leads, nor be pets and not walked in public places. Dog fighting is againts rules and clearly this dog was set up for it! the owner must take resposibility!! do you know him?


Then changed a third time to what it shows now - can't get to FB from this computer othewise I'd quote it.

But it doesn't matter. The picture with the above descriptions is the one that was shared over 6000 times, incriminating all three men in the shot. Completely unacceptable IMO.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> The picture was of the owner holding the dog on lead. One of the helpers (wearing a hat - as both helpers were) was standing in the background and can be seen on a number of the photos.
> 
> Given the injuries and the attack, I suspect most members of the public would have stood back and not wanted to wade in. The owner did seem to be making a half hearted attempt to get his dog off (the dog was not wearing a collar), but for all we know, this didn't happen until the two passerbys tried to help (by this time the owner had already been bitten trying to get her dog away).


A half hearted attempt? In one photo he has a large chunk of the dogs skin! I think his 'half hearted' attempt properly helped this Cav have less severe injuries, if he yanked and pulled the dog around he could have caused the dog to rip the other dog.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

hazel pritchard said:


> The BBC Look East lunch time news covered this story, there were 2 men who were trying to get this dog off the ladies dog(they were passer bys) the lady took the pics so the man and dog could be identified, *it was these 2 men that probly saved the dogs life,*
> Hopefully the man with the dog is caught very soon,


I don't believe that. In the pics, the only one who is actually doing anything to get the attacking dog off is the OWNER! Not these two 'heroes'. I am still dubious as to whether they were actually passersby.

His identity is apparently now known, so I expect he has or will be getting questioned.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> A half hearted attempt? In one photo he has a large chunk of the dogs skin! I think his 'half hearted' attempt properly helped this Cav have less severe injuries, if he yanked and pulled the dog around he could have caused the dog to rip the other dog.


Actually let me change that... I have just looked back at the pics and in ALL of the pics of the actually attack, this owner has chunks of the dogs skin! Half hearted attempt my rear end!


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

ouesi said:


> The original picture that was shared showed the two dogs and three men. It had the following caption
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you read that how do you translate it in your mind?

What I understand from 'this sort of dogs" is the sort of dogs that will initiate a prolonged attack ESPECIALLY as I have full understanding she is emotional as she is typing this up. I believe ANYBODY reading should and would have the common sense to understand that the person typing was probably in shock.

I take it you believe she meant Pit Bulls in general? I take it that in the same circumstances you believe you would have the presence of mind to watch all of your politically correct p's and q's and make sure your words were so specific as to not upset anybody who might be defensive of a breed or type and easily offended? I'm glad you are so stoic. I know I would not be.

CC


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lozzibear said:


> A half hearted attempt? In one photo he has a large chunk of the dogs skin! I think his 'half hearted' attempt properly helped this Cav have less severe injuries, if he yanked and pulled the dog around he could have caused the dog to rip the other dog.


Oh please.... the dog had no collar on, this was only after the owner had been bitten. I agree that it is a possibility the 'passersby' were not just passersby, however, the owner has said they were and she was in a better position as she would have been there from the start. The photos were taken towards the end of the attack, not during it.

It has been said that this is not the only time this dog has attacked several other dogs recently- if the owner was so 'helpful' where was the collar, why was the dog not on a lead and where was the muzzle.

I understand people not liking their favoured breed taking a bashing, but you need to get real, defending dogs and owners like this doesn't do the breed any favours.

And I hope if your dogs are ever attacked people show you and your dog a lot more sympathy and less criticism than many of the posters on this thread have shown the owner of the poor cav!


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Has the Cav owner put up any pictures of the bite she received?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> When you read that how do you translate it in your mind?
> 
> What I understand from 'this sort of dogs" is the sort of dogs that will initiate a prolonged attack ESPECIALLY as I have full understanding she is emotional as she is typing this up.
> 
> ...


I think she means the sort of dog that so many youngsters get and use as weapons and to appear 'tough' here in the UK. Guns are illegal here, even carrying knives is an offence so a whole culture has developed aroundn owning 'tough' dogs and training them to attack. Bull breeds, particularly staffy crosses are favoured.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> When you read that how do you translate it in your mind?
> 
> What I understand from 'this sort of dogs' is the sort of dogs that will attack ESPECIALLY as I have full understanding she is emotional as she is typing this up.
> 
> ...


First off, your first sentence above translates in my mind as condescending 

Second of all, the comment about "this sort of dogs" is neither here nor there.

The issue is that there were three men pictured in this photo and there was absolutely no clarification as to their role in the whole thing. We are left to believe that they are connected to the attacking dog, not there to help, and their faces are now shared all over facebook as the "bad guys", the kind of people who fight dogs, the kind of people who set their dog on a poor inocent pet just for $#1ts and giggles. 
How would you feel if you were one of those men who stopped to help?

I would be devastated if someone took a shot of me jumping in to break up a dog fight between dogs that I had no connection to and shared the photo as if I were somehow connected.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> And I hope if your dogs are ever attacked people show you and your dog a lot more sympathy and less criticism than many of the posters on this thread have shown the owner of the poor cav!


My dogs have been attacked thank you, and I didn't stop to take pictures and share them all over the internet, leaving far too much information out, making innocent people look like villains.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

ouesi said:


> First off, your first sentence above translates in my mind as condescending
> 
> Second of all, the comment about "this sort of dogs" is neither here nor there.
> 
> ...


You are not 'left' to believe. You decide to believe and that is on you if you don't look further into it.

Not at any time looking at those photos did I consider connecting all in the photos to the attacking dog. If I did that would have been my mistake . . . not the mistake of the owner for posting the photos.

If I had been one of those people I would not give being in the photos a second thought.

CC


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I would be devastated if someone took a shot of me jumping in to break up a dog fight between dogs that I had no connection to and shared the photo as if I were somehow connected.


Even though the photo showed two men (with the male 'helper' in the background) the owner wrote if you see this MAN, she didn't write if you see these MEN!

Some may have such sensibilities as CC says, when you are in that situation, people don't always think straight. If you are sensitive to this, imagine how the dog's owner is feeling thinking her dog is going to be killed. Personally, I would be more concerned about the dogs and doing what I could to ensure no other dogs were attacked by this dog.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Even though the photo showed two men (with the male 'helper' in the background) the owner wrote if you see this MAN, she didn't write if you see these MEN!
> 
> Some may have such sensibilities as CC says, *when you are in that situation, people don't always think straight.* If you are sensitive to this, imagine how the dog's owner is feeling thinking her dog is going to be killed. Personally, I would be more concerned about the dogs and doing what I could to ensure no other dogs were attacked by this dog.


I love it! So it's okay to make allowances for the white woman with the cute cavalier not thinking straight, bless her, poor innocent victim... But it's not okay to make allowances for ethnic-looking men who clearly must be chavs with their big bad bully breed. 
Yes, by all means let's have sensitivity and compassion for the woman. Let's imagine how it must feel to be her. But not the men. Don't take a minute to think how they must feel with their picture plastered everywhere. No. Let's throw the book at the men and convict them before we have all the facts. Hilarious. 

I'm done, ya'll have fun with your self-righteous ethnocentrism.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

What in all good graces are you speaking about?

What insensitivity has been shown to these men?

I happen to be mixed race, btw, and my OH is mixed race as are our kids, and I can't see what in hell you are talking about. Why the 'white' woman mention came up above completely perplexes me.

No books are thrown at anybody. No one has convicted anyone.

All of the photos specifically speak to a single 'guy' and that single 'guy' happens to be the owner. How does that implicate the men standing around?

What I have seen from the start of this thread is a rush to blame the victim, questionning the actions she took in a deliberate turn to focus on her, and I find it sickening.

CC


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> What in all good graces are you speaking about.
> 
> What insensitivity has been shown to these men?
> 
> ...


I have no idea, it seems to have turned into a vendetta against the owner of the dog that was attacked for not taking into account everyone's sensibilities before she posted! Although the debate about whether or not the cav might have provoked the attack seems to have been forgotten


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

sorry im confused now, the guy in the blue coat holding the dog on a lead is he thought to be the owner?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Oh please.... the dog had no collar on, this was only after the owner had been bitten. I agree that it is a possibility the 'passersby' were not just passersby, however, the owner has said they were and she was in a better position as she would have been there from the start. The photos were taken towards the end of the attack, not during it.
> 
> It has been said that this is not the only time this dog has attacked several other dogs recently- if the owner was so 'helpful' where was the collar, why was the dog not on a lead and where was the muzzle.
> 
> ...


How can you say all this as though it is fact that the owner got bitten and fact that the photos where taken towards the end of the attack??

Where you there? Otherwise I don't see how you can make statements like that...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> How can you say all this as though it is fact that the owner got bitten and fact that the photos where taken towards the end of the attack??
> 
> Where you there? Otherwise I don't see how you can make statements like that...


OK, well let's just say this first to get it out of the way. If there had not been a human bite, the police would not be taking on the case. Dog on dog attacks are not the domain of the police and they are not interested.

That aside, I, like CC, find it quite offensive that people are turning this around to blame the victim. As an observer, it would appear because they don't want anything said against the staffy breed, which is rather sad, because if they really do want to improve the breed's image, they are not doing it any favours by starting a vendetta against the victim of a dog attack.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> When you read that how do you translate it in your mind?
> 
> What I understand from 'this sort of dogs" is the sort of dogs that will initiate a prolonged attack ESPECIALLY as I have full understanding she is emotional as she is typing this up. I believe ANYBODY reading should and would have the common sense to understand that the person typing was probably in shock.
> 
> ...


Well, there have been many comments with people slagging on bull breeds, saying they should be banned etc and she has agreed... So, I certainly believe she meant bull breeds.



rocco33 said:


> Oh please.... the dog had no collar on, this was only after the owner had been bitten.


What has the dog not wearing a collar to do with this?? Yes, the dog should have worn a collar, but that is nothing to do with your comment on the 'half hearted' attempt.

Oh yes, that mystery bite. It is funny that she has posted photos of the attack, the dogs wounds afterwards... and even a photo of her injured finger a few days before... but no photo of this 'bite' has appeared... I wonder why... I didn't believe she was bitten from near the beginning, and the fact it wasn't mentioned in that newspaper makes me believe it even less! Surely a devil dog pitbull biting someone would be mentioned??? But no, not a whisper about it... Because it is s****!



rocco33 said:


> It has been said that this is not the only time this dog has attacked several other dogs recently- if the owner was so 'helpful' where was the collar, why was the dog not on a lead and where was the muzzle.
> 
> I understand people not liking their favoured breed taking a bashing, but you need to get real, defending dogs and owners like this doesn't do the breed any favours.
> 
> And I hope if your dogs are ever attacked people show you and your dog a lot more sympathy and less criticism than many of the posters on this thread have shown the owner of the poor cav!


I am not saying the owner wasn't in the wrong, he was. The dog should have had a collar on AND been on a lead... HOWEVER, that doesn't mean he is the root of all evil and various rumours should be spread about him. For a while the owner didn't know who he was (apparently they know now) yet right from the beginning people were saying the dog and owner have a history... bull**** IMO. It is the usual with people jumping on the bandwagon and sensationalising things.

This has nothing to do with my favoured breed, I just do not like the way this has been handled. I saw a post on a group I am on claiming the guy is involved in dog fighting, I challenged this accusation and was told that the person who set up the group had received a PM telling them so... of course! It must be true then  THAT is how these rumours start, one person says something and then all of a sudden it is reposted all over the place and it suddenly becomes fact.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> OK, well let's just say this first to get it out of the way. If there had not been a human bite, the police would not be taking on the case. Dog on dog attacks are not the domain of the police and they are not interested.
> 
> That aside, I, like CC, find it quite offensive that people are turning this around to blame the victim. As an observer, it would appear because they don't want anything said against the staffy breed, which is rather sad, because if they really do want to improve the breed's image, they are not doing it any favours by starting a vendetta against the victim of a dog attack.


All a person needs to say is that a dog made them feel threatened for the police to act, the dog doesn't even need to touch them.

Also, the police should act on dog on dog attacks too... most people just don't fight it enough to get them to follow up on it.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> OK, well let's just say this first to get it out of the way. If there had not been a human bite, the police would not be taking on the case. Dog on dog attacks are not the domain of the police and they are not interested.
> 
> That aside, I, like CC, find it quite offensive that people are turning this around to blame the victim. As an observer, it would appear because they don't want anything said against the staffy breed, which is rather sad, because if they really do want to improve the breed's image, they are not doing it any favours by starting a vendetta against the victim of a dog attack.


I know but what if she had claimed to be bitten when actually it was not a bite? Or a slight nik of the skin? What if the bite came from her own dog in the confusion?

With the publicity this has received, it looks good on the coppers to do something about it. Who specifically has blamed the owner? As I'm aware no one has blamed her for the incident, just feel mistakes where made, by both parties.

There is so many angles at which to view the whole scenario and with 4-5 pictures and a few comments from one person of which 4 where involved no one has the right to think they know what has happened or who is the victim etc.

I feel for this lady I really do, her poor dog needed veterinary treatment  that's not fair in any case! But just as people where slating the lad it is only fair to think about it from his side as well.

We could keep this open for the next five years, we will never agree and we will never know the truth.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lozzibear said:


> All a person needs to say is that a dog made them feel threatened for the police to act, the dog doesn't even need to touch them.
> 
> Also, the police should act on dog on dog attacks too... most people just don't fight it enough to get them to follow up on it.


Do you live in the real world 

Sorry, I'm finished with this thread now, but I will repeat, all the time dog owners / lovers of these breeds take this stance, they will get little sympathy from the general public and will be doing nothing to help the breed, only damaging it further. Fortunately, not my breed otherwise I might be a bit more vocal. As it is I'll leave it to those who want to satisfy their sense of injustice.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Do you live in the real world
> 
> Sorry, I'm finished with this thread now, but I will repeat, all the time dog owners / lovers of these breeds take this stance, they will get little sympathy from the general public and will be doing nothing to help the breed, only damaging it further. Fortunately, not my breed otherwise I might be a bit more vocal. As it is I'll leave it to those who want to satisfy their sense of injustice.


Yes, funnily enough. I do! Maybe you need to check the law...


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Do you live in the real world
> 
> Sorry, I'm finished with this thread now, but I will repeat, all the time dog owners / lovers of these breeds take this stance, they will get little sympathy from the general public and will be doing nothing to help the breed, only damaging it further. Fortunately, not my breed otherwise I might be a bit more vocal. As it is I'll leave it to those who want to satisfy their sense of injustice.


See, the real world 

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Most of this has been about the actions of the people involved NOT the dog breeds...


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

Havent read through the whole thread but im aware of some arguement is going on.

Not getting involved in that - just wanted to say that the pics make me feel sick and bring back all sorts of traumatic memories for me as the attacking dog is the spitting image of the dog that attacked and killed my cocker who was the same colouring as the cav that was attacked. Could even be the same dog as the police couldnt have given a toss about my case even though i was bitten as well.


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## Tropical Fish Delivered (Sep 25, 2012)

I cant even look because i know it will be heart breaking


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

leannelatty said:


> Havent read through the whole thread but im aware of some arguement is going on.
> 
> Not getting involved in that - just wanted to say that the pics make me feel sick and bring back all sorts of traumatic memories for me as the attacking dog is the spitting image of the dog that attacked and killed my cocker who was the same colouring as the cav that was attacked. Could even be the same dog as the police couldnt have given a toss about my case even though i was bitten as well.


 I'm so sorry

They are horrible pictures and wish they had never been plastered all over facebook. Hope you are ok.


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> I'm so sorry
> 
> They are horrible pictures and wish they had never been plastered all over facebook. Hope you are ok.


Im ok but it does make me sad. And the attack on Sasha was sooooo much worse. I think, in a way, that its good for them to be on fb bcos it draws awareness in a graphic memorable way to what some disgusting people allow their dogs to do with no repercussions. I do think its a shame that it always seems to be staffys and pits though. Such amazing creatures in the right hands.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> And just to add, through their facebook appeal, Police now have the identity of the dog owner and can proceed with their enquiries.
> 
> Dare I suggest that without the facebook appeal they may well have still been looking and it would have faded away and nothing done?


Glad to read that and glad the police, like me weren't confused as to who the owner was, since the tiile 'If you see THIS man' explained it all! 



we love bsh's said:


> I agree people shouldnt be taring all bull breeds with the same brush.


I don't think people are - just this one!



rocco33 said:


> I understand people not liking their favoured breed taking a bashing, but you need to get real, defending dogs and owners like this *doesn't do the breed any favours*.
> 
> And I hope if your dogs are ever attacked people show you and your dog a lot more sympathy and less criticism than many of the posters on this thread have shown the owner of the poor cav!


So very true and then they wonder why people are prejudiced against the breed. The Cav is the victim here, not the staff or it's owner!



rocco33 said:


> That aside, I, like CC, find it quite offensive that people are turning this around to blame the victim. As an observer, it would appear because they don't want anything said against the staffy breed, which is rather sad, because if they really do want to improve the breed's image, they are not doing it any favours by starting a vendetta against the victim of a dog attack.


I wonder if responses would have been the same had the attacker been another breed. Whatever breed it is, another dog has suffered because of it's actions. If it has bitten the Cav owner, as has been said a few times on fb, hopefully it will be destroyed because then it will be a danger to no one. IMO it's dangerous enough as it is but in the eyes of the law dog on dog doesn't count - unfortunately!


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

It shouldnt matter what breed is involved, no matter what dogs have been injured in this and thats all that matters.

would this story of gotten as much attention if the bull type was considered the victim? i think not, the whole argument of publicity is fully based on breed prejudice and without all of the facts its difficult to make a full conclusion on the situation that occurred.

forget the breed, it should be about the dog, and only the dog.


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Okay, I'm not a regular Dog Chatter so am prepared to be shot down *takes deep breath and clears throat*

I have seen a lot of breedist attitudes on here lately and I'm disappointed to see that this thread has ended up as such, too. (I'm not particularly surprised, though).

The fact is, NOBODY knows what has gone on. It's purely speculation. Had it been the other way round, I doubt there would have been newspaper reports and the general publicity it has received.

Who's to say the cav didn't initiate the fight? I'm not saying it's okay by any means- quite the opposite, it's horrendous- but the fact is, we don't know the full story. 

Plus, the fact that they took pictures is rather alarming. I would imagine most owners would be trying in vein to release the dog's grip, without even thinking about producing photographic evidence!!!

I just know that this bully is likely to meet a sad end, due to discriminatory attitudes :nonod:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I just know that this bully is likely to meet a sad end, due to discriminatory attitudes


I think you'll find that IF he does meet a sad end it will be due to his behaviour


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> I think you'll find that IF he does meet a sad end it will be due to his behaviour


Yes and no.

I think it's a combination of the two, to be honest. 1) He's attacked another dog and 2) he's a bull breed.

Attacks like this must happen relatively often- not necessarily always a bull breed- but like I said before, most don't make the headlines. Why? Because they don't fit the newsworthy breed type...

Had this been a Cav attacking a Bully. Or a Cav attacking a Cav,or even a Bully attacking a Bully, I don't think the responses would have been so heightened.

It's all to do with breeds and how they are perceived. That's my opinion, anyway.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I think you'll find that IF he does meet a sad end it will be due to his behaviour


Yey! We agree on something


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

on a news article i read about this the attact apparently lasted 25 minutes. I would expect some serious damage to the dog after a 25 minute attack. My staffordshire bull was attacked for barely a minute and had to have stitches to his face.

Dog owner took pictures of her King Charles Spaniel being mauled by pitbull and posted them on Facebook in a bid to catch attacker's owners | Mail Online so it's states but im not surprised the dailymail has jumped o this story.

Dog on dog attacks happen everyday, most can be avoided, as in this case. Yes the dog should have had a collar on and im baffled as to why it did not. However i the pictures the only person stopping the dog, is the owner, who has possibly wrongly been labelled as a dog fighter. I'm hoping he was just stupid, possibly naive and will be much more careful and responsible in the future.

Also the cav owner took photos of her dog lay on the ground in blood, not something i'd do, maybe when the dog was in the vets hands then i'd quickly snap one. Also the bite to her, it was on her hand was it not? The dog could have bitten whilst she was trying to split them up, if she attempted to. In which case that happens often, it's happened to me, why demand for a dog to be put to sleep for that? A dog can bite a person when there being seperated, people panick and don't think about where there hands are going, the dog doesn't realise what it is etc. The woman also cut her hand with a knife a day or so before (its on her facebook) as she seems to very anti bull breeds maybe that got exaggerated.

I find it odd. I do feel so sorry for the cav and it appears to be making a really good recovery.

I'm not sticking up for the bull owner, he;s an idiot for the dog not having a collar on. But the point im trying to make is most are making assumptions when only half a story is being told. Noone but them were there. The dog could have slipped his collar for example, or for whatever mad reason the owner could have took it of. Some dogs like dogs and take a dislike to the odd one every so often. Some of the comments i've read have been quite harsh. I reserve opinion, i wasn't there. I do feel sorry for the cav and what it has been through.

The fact the dog involved was a bull breed shouldn't be commented on in my opinion. The fault and irresponsibility as an owner should be the main focus.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

From the Cavalier owners timeline

_"If I see anymore comments on my fb page about creating a dog hate club, or racist comments *along with the thoughts of me standing there doing nothing just taking pictures while watching my dog suffer for my own advantage *, I will block that person and report you to fb for abuse. It was not your dog, you weren't there to see what happened nor you can even imagine what I went through with my dog. Stop assuming when you don't know the facts and Just to mention once again I DON'T DO DOG POLITICS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. For all of those that have put nice comments I have really appreciated every single one of them and I thank you for your support. All I want is to catch the guy and his dog. HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND. Thank you."​_
and the comment.

So sorry you're being put through this, Malfalda. An utter disgrace. There are no excuses for this revolting behaviour towards you.​
I concur.

CC


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Oh poor baby  Hope he recovers well and that the owner of the other dog is brought to book.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> From the Cavalier owners timeline
> 
> _"If I see anymore comments on my fb page about creating a dog hate club, or racist comments *along with the thoughts of me standing there doing nothing just taking pictures while watching my dog suffer for my own advantage *, I will block that person and report you to fb for abuse. It was not your dog, you weren't there to see what happened nor you can even imagine what I went through with my dog. Stop assuming when you don't know the facts and Just to mention once again I DON'T DO DOG POLITICS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. For all of those that have put nice comments I have really appreciated every single one of them and I thank you for your support. All I want is to catch the guy and his dog. HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND. Thank you."​_
> and the comment.
> ...


hmmm hmmmm... Cos the owners recount of the event has been solid as a rock the whole way through..... Of course there wasn't a comment calling for all bully's to be put down, and goodness me she never once said that bullies shouldn't be kept as pets... She didn't announce all over fb that the owner of the bully was into dog fighting, when in reality she has no bloody idea......

Nope, no, of course not 

People are entitled to have an opinion on a story that changes more than most change their panties when it is posted on a public domain :hand:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

B3rnie said:


> hmmm hmmmm... Cos the owners recount of the event has been solid as a rock the whole way through..... Of course there wasn't a comment calling for all bully's to be put down, and goodness me she never once said that bullies shouldn't be kept as pets... She didn't announce all over fb that the owner of the bully was into dog fighting, when in reality she has no bloody idea......
> 
> Nope, no, of course not
> 
> *People are entitled to have an opinion on a story *that changes more than most change their panties when it is posted on a public domain :hand:


They are indeed. What they don't realise is it says more about them than it does about the owner, the attack or the dogs.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> They are indeed. What they don't realise is it says more about them than it does about the owner, the attack or the dogs.


In your opinion maybe, personally I see people questioning things after the story has been changed several times... Nothing wrong with that in the slightest..

And there is most certainly nothing wrong with people not wanting to condemn someone from a few pics taken in the moment...

Please do keep up with the holier than tho attitude


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Right I know what I want to say but don't know the best way to put it! 

I love ALL breeds of dog including bull breeds!

Regardless of what the owners are doing the pics are of two dogs, a Cav and a bull breed! From the pics it's clear that the bull breed is chewing on the Cavs leg, the Cav doesn't look like it's fighting back. Of course when there is a dog fight including a bull breed all bull lovers are going to stick up for that dog and the breed and all the people against the bull breed are going to slag it off. If these pics were going around the internt but instead of it being a bull breed holding onto the Cavs leg it was a ESS (example) would all the people that are defending the bully dog at the min defend the ESS?

To me it doesn't matter what breed the dogs are, the pics are awful and make me feel sick! I would hate to see my dogs leg hanging out of another dogs mouth, I certainly wouldn't be taking pics of it, I would be doing everything in my power to get that dog off of my dog.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> Right I know what I want to say but don't know the best way to put it!
> 
> I love ALL breeds of dog including bull breeds!
> 
> ...


Yes I would, especially if everyone was jumping on the bandwagon without all the facts... The breeds of the dogs make no difference to me, unfortunately the same can't be said for some...
And there is a pic of the cav fighting back, just so you know


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

B3rnie said:


> Yes I would, especially if everyone was jumping on the bandwagon without all the facts... The breeds of the dogs make no difference to me, unfortunately the same can't be said for some...
> And there is a pic of the cav fighting back, just so you know


Really I didn't see any pics of it fighting back! Just one of the men walking off with the bull breed and one with the Cavs leg in the bulls mouth.  maybe there are different lots of pics going around?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Unfortunately some of the owners of these dogs are themselves to blame for the bad press they receive. Saw one yesterday when leaving our field, dog with him, no collar or lead. The one that attacked Flynn who lives down my road still no collar or lead and guy shouting after it the other day as it raced after a cat, had I been out with Flynn again we'd have had another fight on our hands. The same dog tried to belt up at Flynn a couple of months before it actually attacked him. On that occasion I managed to get in my house just in time - second time I didn't. 

So many times we see this breed off lead round here and I can't fathom why they won't leash them like the rest of us do. My own Staffs were always on lead in the street, just like my dogs now, as I imagine members dogs on here are. Not even a collar to grab if they do run up to your dog and that in itself is surely illegal, aren't all dogs supposed to have ID on their collar? Just - why?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Typical Bull breed thread.....the blame is shifted to the victim. If it is were any other breed type I guarantee that people wouldn't be so desperate to instigate that the other party 'may have started it'. 

All this talk of stereotypes makes me laugh too. We are human, we stereotype. If I saw those men or to be honest, anyone, coming towards me with that dog I would be getting well out of the way. I wouldn't give a sh*t if I hurt their feelings, I trust my gut instinct and in this instance it would almost certainly be correct.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Typical Bull breed thread.....the blame is shifted to the victim. If it is were any other breed type I guarantee that people wouldn't be so desperate to instigate that the other party 'may have started it'.


Exactly, and constant criticisim of the victim and some of the accusations that have been made are unbelievable. Talk about chips on shoulders - more like a forest!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

labradrk said:


> Typical Bull breed thread.....the blame is shifted to the victim. If it is were any other breed type I guarantee that people wouldn't be so desperate to instigate that the other party 'may have started it'.


I have to agree. This forum in particular seems to be so pro bull breed that they can never do any wrong. I have no prejudice against them whatsoever and do agree that, within society, they have an unjustifiably 'bad' reputation - but we do tend to take it to the other extreme on here. I am well used to being on the receiving end of unfair comments based purely upon the breed of dog I have, so do understand to some extent how responsible owners of these breeds may feel and the drive to defend your own breed- my own mother has believed a horror story that she was told about a RR and has gone from loving Kilo to being afraid of him and he has never been with me to visit again.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> Really I didn't see any pics of it fighting back! Just one of the men walking off with the bull breed and one with the Cavs leg in the bulls mouth.  maybe there are different lots of pics going around?


There is 3 pics of the actual fight and in one pic the cav looks to have grabbed the bullies mouth and then in the following pic you can see bite wound to the bullies muzzle.

That doesn't mean that it makes it ok :nonod:, and I don't find the level of aggression acceptable at all :nonod:
None of us know what happened, but as the cav's owners' account has changed on several occasions (for example, when the pics were first posted it was because they didn't have the bullies owners details, to then he gave the wrong details. Also at first the account was the owner of the bully was ordered to attack, to then the cav sniffed the bullies bum and then he launched an attack), and then to make comments like the ones I mentioned in a previous post, I personally can't take anything said as fact I'm afraid.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I personally can't take anything said as fact I'm afraid.


Fortunately, you don't have to. It's in the hands of the police now! 
If it took a facebook campaign for that to happen then I think that's a good thing. Too many times this sort of thing is accepted as a part of owning a dog.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Those awful pics have been shared to my FB page three times and in all the pics I haven't seen the Cav fighting back tbh. If you were to go and inflict pain on your dog right now you'd probably get a reaction, maybe even a snap but that's not fighting back. Fighting back is what Flynn did to his attacker and whether anyone believes me or not Flynn did not instigate that fight - FACT! He'd met many dogs at training school and seemed actually quite happy to see it for a split second. 

If the Cav had tried to fight back it must've been very short lived judging by all the pics I've seen!  I'm wondering if that statement is again meant to suggest the Cav actually instigated this attack, I'd wager it didn't no more than Flynn did!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

Malmum said:


> If the Cav had tried to fight back it must've been very short lived judging by all the pics I've seen!  I'm wondering if that statement is again meant to suggest the Cav actually instigated this attack, I'd wager it didn't no more than Flynn did!


Not even close 
For all you know the WHOLE attack was short lived, pictures are a moment in time, nothing more, nothing less.

And once again (getting bored of repeating this ) I am not saying that the bully is blameless, I am not saying that the level of aggression is acceptable, what I am saying is NONE OF US KNOW THE TRUTH :huh:


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't think this thread is pro bull breed. 

I think what people have said has been read into abit. No one can make accusations, as I said before it is all theory. Thinking about it from all the different angles! A bit of csi! 

Yeah, the chances of a women going out for a stroll with her cav when a dog aggressive bull breed noticed the cav and went for it, resulting in the puncture wounds seen in the pictures is probably the most likely and the most common thing to of happened here.

I would be just as upset if her comments about bull breeds where aimed at boxers? GSD's? Even Chihuahua's!? No breed deserves that kind of public treatment.

And there is every possibility that the events played out on that day where completely different as to how suggested by the photos. 

Regardless, bull owner has done wrong and as far as I am aware the police have the mans details and I hope they take it seriously! Spot the cav, thankfully is making a good recovery bless him and hope he doesn't suffer to much when he starts to socialise again


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

leannelatty said:


> I do think its a shame that it always seems to be staffys and pits though. Such amazing creatures in the right hands.


Unfortunately they are the legal breed of choice by many with the 'wrong hands'. Just imagine if these same people were allowed to legally acquire pitbulls and other breeds with aggressive traits. How many more dog on dog attacks would occur? How many more poor dogs would be kept caged and frustrated in appalling conditions and only let out to vent their pent up aggression in a dog fighting pit?? I for one am totally for BSL and am glad that pitbulls are controlled. Obviously in the right hands they can be great dogs but why have rescue centres filled with staffies AND pitbulls when rescues already can't cope with the number of staffies discarded by the type of people who would only be to keen to get a pitbull if they were legal.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Haven't read the whole thread but I can gather the jist.

I'm not going to justify the staff/pits behaviour/reaction, aggression should NOT be tolerated in ANY breed. I do also think being a bull owner myself that this forum can go OTT on the defence of such breeds, however the comments I've seen on the shared pictures on Facebook how "These dogs should not be pets" "They should all be destroyed" and the keeness of some to jump on bashing them on here is appalling.

This Mafalda womans story seems to be ever changing. She claims she couldn't get the dog off hers so she took pictures instead, during the fight, before the man gave her "false details. If that were me I wouldn't stop until my dog was free. We were not there, the cav could be innocent, it could of instigated it, she could be one of them ditzy owners that just lets their dog say hello to everyone because "he's friendly" we've all encountered them.

Whatever happened we will never know for sure a but tarring a breed a person an owner with the same brush is ridiculous. Its a shame it happened but it has. She should have dealt with it properly with the people involved instead of creating hysteria online.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Unfortunately they are the legal breed of choice by many with the 'wrong hands'. Just imagine if these same people were allowed to legally acquire pitbulls and other breeds with aggressive traits. How many more dog on dog attacks would occur? How many more poor dogs would be kept caged and frustrated in appalling conditions and only let out to vent their pent up aggression in a dog fighting pit?? I for one am totally for BSL and am glad that pitbulls are controlled. Obviously in the right hands they can be great dogs but why have rescue centres filled with staffies AND pitbulls when rescues already can't cope with the number of staffies discarded by the type of people who would only be to keen to get a pitbull if they were legal.


I think people that want a pit - type dog often want them _because_ they are a banned type. Adds to the kudos. Make them legal and much of that is removed and they become less desirable. I've lived in a place where pit types are commonplace and didn't witness the kinds of horrors you talk about. Most of them were just left to wander and didn't pounce on dogs or people willy nilly.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Unfortunately they are the legal breed of choice by many with the 'wrong hands'. *Just imagine if these same people were allowed to legally acquire pitbulls and other breeds with aggressive traits. How many more dog on dog attacks would occur? How many more poor dogs would be kept caged and frustrated in appalling conditions and only let out to vent their pent up aggression in a dog fighting pit?? I for one am totally for BSL and am glad that pitbulls are controlled.* Obviously in the right hands they can be great dogs but why have rescue centres filled with staffies AND pitbulls when rescues already can't cope with the number of staffies discarded by the type of people who would only be to keen to get a pitbull if they were legal.


And there we go again 

These same people could also get a patterdale (for example) and do exactly the same for goodness sake....
Shall we ban all dogs? I mean we might as well, the wrong people could get hold of them as it stands


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Unfortunately they are the legal breed of choice by many with the 'wrong hands'. Just imagine if these same people were allowed to legally acquire pitbulls and other breeds with aggressive traits. How many more dog on dog attacks would occur? How many more poor dogs would be kept caged and frustrated in appalling conditions and only let out to vent their pent up aggression in a dog fighting pit?? I for one am totally for BSL and am glad that pitbulls are controlled. Obviously in the right hands they can be great dogs but why have rescue centres filled with staffies AND pitbulls when rescues already can't cope with the number of staffies discarded by the type of people who would only be to keen to get a pitbull if they were legal.


Firmly disagree with this- the owners you talk of are drawn to the pit because it is illegal - oh must be a bit dangerous- i'll get me one of those to make me look 'ard. Remove the fact it is illegal- dog somewhat looses its appeal.

People are allowed to legally acquire dogs with aggressive traits - seeing as ANY dog can show aggression. BSL is utterly useless- it has not reduced dog attacks - and is just akin to racism- judging something solely by the way it looks........

I also imagine more folk would be keener to adopt a bull breed IF they were not going to be subjected to the fear of having said dog taken off them due to BSL nonsense.

The Breed of dog has naff all to do with this attack- could have easily been a rotttie/ GSD that landed in the hands of this total pleb of an owner who thinks having an aggressive dog is funny. The little cav and its owner did not deserve this, and I really hope something is done to the owner of the other dog- the dog should also probably be PTS- but i would be saying that if it had been a lab/spangle/GSD/yorkie!!!


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

The worst dog on dog attacks I've ever seen were a lab killing a toy poodle and a great Dane shredding the neck of a sprollie... I've had a dog who was attacked by a staffie - it was nothing compared to either of those two.

It really doesn't matter at all what breed it is - would that wee cav be any better off if it had been bitten by a lab or a great Dane?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I think people that want a pit - type dog often want them _because_ they are a banned type. Adds to the kudos. Make them legal and much of that is removed and they become less desirable. I've lived in a place where pit types are commonplace and didn't witness the kinds of horrors you talk about. Most of them were just left to wander and didn't pounce on dogs or people willy nilly.


What about in America where they are legal in many states and dog fighting is widespread and attacks on dogs and people from roaming pits is far more commonplace than in the UK. Why are they the chosen breed of criminal gangs even when not illegal if legalising them makes them lose their appeal? I have yet to see gangs in USA with Patterdale Terriers. If pitbulls were legalised then (IMO) plenty of morons would be dumping their staffies for an upgrade. Obviously there are other breeds that people prejudge as aggressive but if all breeds are equal then why don't you see dogfighters using rotties or GSD in fights? Must be something in the breed that appeals to people who like aggressive traits in dogs otherwise why not put Pomeranians in the ring?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> And there we go again
> 
> These same people could also get a patterdale (for example) and do exactly the same for goodness sake....
> Shall we ban all dogs? I mean we might as well, the wrong people could get hold of them as it stands


110% agree with this

If agression was a genetic trait then it is highly unlikely their behaviour could ever be successfully modified by a professional.

As it stands, they can be successfully rehabilitated in most cases and I know of pit bull types who have grown up in a kind and responsible family unit who show no agressive traits what so ever. One of them is a first time dog owner, nothing special, was unaware of bsl before getting the dog etc.

It all comes down to us and the fact that we need more education and knowledge in regards to dog ownership! This is why I want to become an educational speaker at schools and clubs to promote responsible dog ownership.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> What about in America where they are legal in many states and dog fighting is widespread and attacks on dogs and people from roaming pits is far more commonplace than in the UK. Why are they the chosen breed of criminal gangs even when not illegal if legalising them makes them lose ppeal? I have yet to see gangs in USA with Patterdale Terriers. If pitbulls were legalised then (IMO) plenty of morons would be dumping their staffies for an upgrade. Obviously there are other breeds that people prejudge as aggressive but if all breeds are equal then why don't you see dogfighters using rotties or GSD in fights? Must be something in the breed that appeals to people who like aggressive traits in dogs otherwise why not put Pomeranians in the ring?


These dogs do attract certain types of people, yes. But do stop using the term aggressive traits. There isn't an aggressive bone in my staffs body. They are a reactive dog and largely do the things they do out of fear. A dog becomes that way from neglect. Any dog. Staffs and pits have been found to be more of a stable temperament than cockers, chihuahuas and jack russels. Also car accidents kill much much more people every year. Should we ban cars? Much more parents kill their own children than these dogs do a year.... Should we ban reproducing? Ridiculous narrow minded views.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> What about in America where they are legal in many states and dog fighting is widespread and attacks on dogs and people from roaming pits is far more commonplace than in the UK. Why are they the chosen breed of criminal gangs even when not illegal if legalising them makes them lose their appeal? I have yet to see gangs in USA with Patterdale Terriers. If pitbulls were legalised then (IMO) plenty of morons would be dumping their staffies for an upgrade. Obviously there are other breeds that people prejudge as aggressive but if all breeds are equal then why don't you see dogfighters using rotties or GSD in fights? Must be something in the breed that appeals to people who like aggressive traits in dogs otherwise why not put Pomeranians in the ring?


Pit bulls have gone through massive changes over in the states And I have all
Ways thought it is very much the same if you compare the numbers. Pits are SO common out there, not just gangs but family pets. There are more happy and loved pitties then there are stray and troubled ones.

Also, there culture in many parts is very very different compared to over here. Cock fighting seems to be very common as well dog fights and god knows what else! They have a much higher stray dog problem then we do especially in the poorer areas and they have changed the common pit into a huge chunky showy dog, these certainly are not fighters! They are far to fat to fight properly! But they look all butch and threatening. Pitties are also used for competition sports a lot out there like pulling and that one they jump up as high as possible.

I don't think it is fair to compare to the USA as like I said, it is very very different out there in so many ways and again it all comes down to us humans and our lack of knowledge and responsibility.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

sezeelson said:


> Pit bulls have gone through massive changes over in the states And I have all
> Ways thought it is very much the same if you compare the numbers. Pits are SO common out there, not just gangs but family pets. There are more happy and loved pitties then there are stray and troubled ones.
> 
> Also, there culture in many parts is very very different compared to over here. Cock fighting seems to be very common as well dog fights and god knows what else! They have a much higher stray dog problem then we do especially in the poorer areas and they have changed the common pit into a huge chunky showy dog, these certainly are not fighters! They are far to fat to fight properly! But they look all butch and threatening. Pitties are also used for competition sports a lot out there like pulling and that one they jump up as high as possible.
> ...


This; comparing two very different cultures is a little fruitless. Where I lived Pit type dogs were the yard protection dog of choice, dog fighting was common and I was often picking up the pieces of gang and drug related machete attacks etc. Literally . All that sounds bad, but conversely most people had dogs as 'pets' in the loosest sense in that they hung about to be fed then spent their day out and about wandering around loose. I used to encounter dozens of loose dogs per day and never saw or treated anyone for an attack by these animals, the vast majority of which were pit type dogs.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Ridiculous narrow minded views.


Yes my views are different to yours and in my posts I have qualified what I have said by adding IMO therefore I do not expect anyone to start getting rude or personal in their replies by saying thet my views are ridiculous and narrow minded - just different to yours honey!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> Yes my views are different to yours and in my posts I have qualified what I have said by adding IMO therefore I do not expect anyone to start getting rude or personal in their replies by saying thet my views are ridiculous and narrow minded - just different to yours honey!


You're right. It is your opinion and you're entitled to it. It's just my opinion that your opinion is narrow minded  we shall agree to disagree.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> What about in America where they are legal in many states and dog fighting is widespread and attacks on dogs and people from roaming pits is far more commonplace than in the UK. Why are they the chosen breed of criminal gangs even when not illegal if legalising them makes them lose their appeal? I have yet to see gangs in USA with Patterdale Terriers. If pitbulls were legalised then (IMO) plenty of morons would be dumping their staffies for an upgrade. Obviously there are other breeds that people prejudge as aggressive but if all breeds are equal then why don't you see dogfighters using rotties or GSD in fights? Must be something in the breed that appeals to people who like aggressive traits in dogs otherwise why not put Pomeranians in the ring?


These links may be of interest:

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/230603563_Pit Bull Placebo.pdf

http://www.pitbullguru.com/InheritedDogAggression.pdf

http://www.pitbullguru.com/soundnessaggression.pdf

Some extracts from this book here Unleashed: The Phenomena of Status Dogs and Weapon Dogs - Simon Harding - Google Books


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> These links may be of interest:
> 
> http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/230603563_Pit Bull Placebo.pdf
> 
> ...


Thank you, it is good to see someone who is able to back up their opinions with fact and to be willing to share these facts with others rather than just berating and belittling the opinions of others. There is plenty to read there and when I get round to it my opinions may well change but at least my decisions/opinions will be well informed.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> These links may be of interest:
> 
> http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/230603563_Pit Bull Placebo.pdf
> 
> ...


Really interesting reads, thank you for sharing!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

Since we're bringing pit bulls in the US in to this, and I am actually IN the US, I thought I'd share some info 

APBT and AmStaffs are indeed very popular breeds here. Owned by people of all walks of life, much like you would see all sorts owning a lab. They're just a very "all-American" dog. Historically they were used as all purpose work dogs, on the farms and ranches, doing everything from protecting the ranch from predators, helping bring the cattle in, and then at night be a "nanny" dog for the kids. One of our most iconic pits was "Petey" the dog with the circle around his eye on the tv show "The Little Rascals". He was the kids' constant companion.

Today APBT do everything from breed ring to weightpull to agility to obedience to dock dogs. I honestly can't think of a dog sport where you won't see an APBT/AmStaff - even coursing has a title non-sighthounds can do! They're drivey, tenacious, athletic, biddable dogs which is part of what makes them so crazy popular. They'll literally do anything!

And yes, people do still fight them even though dog fighting is illegal in all 50 states. The same traits that make them good at every other sport also makes them good fighters. NOT because they are inherently aggressive, but because they will do whatever you ask them to and they will do it with zeal.

The one thing pits tend to not be good at is guard dogs. They have been selected for so long for being so hugely tolerant of human handling, even when in pain or aroused. They tend to be really people oriented dogs. Unlike many other breeds who tend to be aloof with strangers and uninterested in anyone outside of their family, pits don't care, they tend to thing all humans are lollipops.

For a while there shady people were getting them to scare off other shady people, more and more these types are figuring out that it takes a lot of "work" (read: abuse) to make pits human aggressive, so the trend now it towards other breeds who are easier to turn in to reactive leash lungers.

I've posted this before, but worth repeating, especially for those who like statistics and scientific evidence. 
The CDC (centers for disease control) and the AVMA (American veterinary medical association) did a 20 year study on dog bites in the US and found that no one breed is inherently more dangerous to humans than another.

_________________________________________________​
As to the OP, I think a lot of what I and others have said has been taken to mean an extreme, out of context POV. To clarify:
One dog attacking another, biting another, fighting with another is absolutely not okay.
Irresponsible ownership, regardless of breed, should be penalized. *Not having control over your dog is inexcusable whether you knew if your dog was DA or not.*

Did the terrier bite the cav? Yes. Clearly. 
Was the terrier not controlled? Yes. Clearly. 
Was the terrier's owner irresponsible for not controlling his dog? Yes. Absolutely. 
Should he be held responsible for his dog's behavior? Yes. Absolutely.

However, we do NOT know that he is/was a dog fighter. 
We do NOT know that he intentionally set his dog on the cav. 
We do NOT know that he intentionally gave out wrong information. 
*Making public accusations without solid evidence is also inexcusable whether you intended to cause harm or not.*

Nevermind the poor "good samaritans" who got lumped in with the whole thing too


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

IMHO the owner was to blame 100%. I don`t understand the hatred of bull breeds. I have had the pleasure of meeting Pitties in the States and they are the sweetest dogs and they are very patient, kind dogs. Staffies are one of my favourite dog breeds so loving, loyal and kind. All the Staffies I have met have had nothing more fearful in mind than giving kisses. One of my dream dog breeds is a Rottie. Why does Joe public assume that any bully type dog that is acting remotely out of control is a APBT? IMO BSL achieves NOTHING but a hatred against certain kinds of dogs. I think it is ridicolous the owner and others saying all bull breeds should be destroyed. Yes think about the bigger picture; why is the dog like this? It isn`t always the owner either some dogs have issues which can have a huge effect on their behaviour and "aggression". What would killing all bullies achieve other than murdering innocent family dogs? SOME may get these breeds to make them look tough but many are much loved, adored, well behaved and under control family pets. Just because they are a Bullie although they MAY be DA doesn`t automatically make them DA. Bailey is friends with Staffies. Even if a dog is DA doesn`t mean it is going to bite and maul some child.  HA and DA is completley different. A DA dog may be the sweetest dog with people. 
I have had issues with Irish Setters but I dont say all Irish Setters should be destroyed. Because many are loved, under control family pets. If owners start taking more responsibility for their dogs and keeping them under control- ALL BREEDS maybe we might achieve something.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Was talking about this thread with my 24 year old daughter last night and she was nearly in tears. Our last dog was a beautiful red Staff - Dorelu Red Jasper - Floyd to us. He was the gentlest boy we have ever owned, fills me up just thinking about him. But as she said he was loved, cared for and never left to roam, knew nothing but kindness and gave it all back a million fold. Sadly some of these poor dogs are not treated like Floyd was and know no better than to do what this boy has done, goodness knows what his home life is like.

It saddens me to now feel fear if I see a Staff when out with my dogs, especially if they are off lead (not mine) it saddens me because of Floyd and his memory but having been on the receiving end my fears have been realised. 

If the poor dogs were all loved and known nothing but kindness we would all see a different behaviour but because of owners like this guy unfortunately we don't. Of course it's the owners fault but there's nothing we can do about that, so the prejudice will just grow and ultimately the dogs will suffer.

Sorry Floydie!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

Malmum, are you saying that it's the dogs who are not loved and have a bad home life end up dog reactive and dog aggressive?


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> hmmm hmmmm... Cos the owners recount of the event has been solid as a rock the whole way through..... Of course there wasn't a comment calling for all bully's to be put down, and goodness me she never once said that bullies shouldn't be kept as pets... She didn't announce all over fb that the owner of the bully was into dog fighting, when in reality she has no bloody idea......
> 
> Nope, no, of course not
> 
> People are entitled to have an opinion on a story that changes more than most change their panties when it is posted on a public domain :hand:


Here you go spinning and claiming her story is in continous change when it is not. The owners account of the event has been as solid as most accounts of these types of events after they occur. I also read the comment about bullies. Are you possibly suggesting she is responsible for the comments of others?

She absolutely said that the guy was a 'thug' and he was 'dodgy'. That is what she thought of him and she has every right to relate that but for some reason you believe she can't relate her own interpretation of events or who she was dealing with on her own facebook page less someone come along and decide to spin them.

Quotes from her original photo and comments:

"If you ever see this guy please stay away and report his dog!"

"He gave me his details but only because the other 2 big guys forced him to. That's why I took pictures"

"We have been attacked by a Pitt bull cross with a staffie??. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of agressive behaviour! they should not be aloud out off their leads, nor be pets and not walked in public places. Dog fighting is againts rules and clearly this dog was set up for it! the owner must take resposibility!! do you know him? I would like to thank the 2 great men that were crucial in saving spot. i don't know your names but your honour and help was essential to my dog's life. please let me know your names so I can thank you personally."​
This is the original version according to someone on here- not the least bit objectionable unless someone wants to read into it meaning that is not there.

"We have been attacked by a Pitt bull. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places"​
More
"please share the photo to raise awareness againts agressive violent dogs! they should not be pets. not walk of lead or witthout a muzzle. its all about their owners."

"I got loads of photos because the guy was dodgy they are to horrendous to even see I got a photo of him too"

"His details weren't real but police is coming to talk to me Sunday I knew he wasn't good honest bloke he is a thug"

"Aggressive dog let loose! Stupid owner"​
Another post:

"I need to thank the 2 men that helped me with saving Spot yesterday. Without them I am not sure my dog would be alive. Please don't include them in the mix they were my greatest help and not to be mixed with the dog owner. thanks you"

"he was with his girlfriend!! the other to men were walkers buy that come running to help me when they heard me screaming! they were great!"​
Another post:

"Thank you for all of those that have shared my dog photos. Spot is home. He is not very happy and clearly in pain. Has had several stitches in different parts of his body and is severely sedated. He hasn't moved much since 6 pm. I have just managed to give him some treats and he ate them. Still had nothing to drink. I will be back at the vets tomorrow morning. For those interested I took the photos because I was bitten while trying to separate the dogs. The staffer locked on my dog for over 25 minutes and no matter of force could get him out. There were 2 man that come and helped when one of them said " this dog is going to dye " my first instinct was I need proof of what is happening here so I got my phone out and snapped away. There wasn't much else I could do at that point. The 2 men also have forced this guy to come forward to I could take his picture as he was ordering to run away with his beast. I have reported to the police because I don't think dogs aggressive like this one should be out loose without a collar nor a muzzle. I am in shock and my dog is crying his eyes out in his bed."​


Patterdale_lover said:


> Haven't read the whole thread but I can gather the jist.
> 
> I'm not going to justify the staff/pits behaviour/reaction, aggression should NOT be tolerated in ANY breed. I do also think being a bull owner myself that this forum can go OTT on the defence of such breeds, however the comments I've seen on the shared pictures on Facebook how "These dogs should not be pets" "They should all be destroyed" and the keeness of some to jump on bashing them on here is appalling.
> 
> ...


Please explain how you figure Mafalda's story is 'ever changing'. It has been consistent, and fully and easily understandable, from the first time I read it.

Please explain anywhere, as well, that she called for a bull breeds to be put to sleep as has been commented by some here that she did.

I have followed her facebook page. I see false accusations and assumptions continuing here again about what she has said and posted, including some pushing the idea she 'implicated' others when it is clear she did not.

Absolutely shameful.

The owner involved gave the wrong information, if someone doesn't remember that, and facebook helped the owner be traced.

SHE is not responsible for hysteria whipped up over dog attacks on the fact she made a facebook posting about it happening and attempted to ID the owner. Slating her for posting about what happened and claiming she is then responsible for whipping up hysteria, as if she should have kept herself muffled, is obnoxious.

CC


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I did see it when it was first posted. Wording has now changed. Used to say this with a prefix of PB and SBT now that's ommited and says " they should not be aloud(sic) of their leads, nor be pets and not be walked in public spaces."


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I did see it when it was first posted. Wording has now changed. Used to say this with a prefix of PB and SBT now that's ommited and says " they should not be aloud(sic) of their leads, nor be pets and not be walked in public spaces."


Please put those words into context. What I remember reading at one point is VICIOUS PBs and SBTs should not be aloud off their leads.

So people are upset she has changed her wording as some took exception and attacked her? Can't win for losing with some that can't be satisfied unless a story is muffled or unless they can reverse this and blame the victim for daring to be upset and report and post what has happened to their dog and actually have the opinion that an aggressive dog should be kept on lead.

This is the original version according to ouesi on page 8 of this forum - not the least bit objectionable unless someone wants to read into it meaning that is not there.

"We have been attacked by a Pitt bull. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places"​
This is the ammended version according to ouesi on page 8 of this forum - again not the least bit objectionable unless someone wants to read into it meaning that is not there.

"We have been attacked by a Pitt bull cross with a staffie??. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of agressive behaviour! they should not be aloud out off their leads, nor be pets and not walked in public places. Dog fighting is againts rules and clearly this dog was set up for it! the owner must take resposibility!! do you know him?"​
For some reason, already on page 8 of this thread, this change is already being used to slate Mafalda. I mean, how dare she think more clearly and consider rewording on her facebook page. The gall.

CC


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

comfortcreature said:


> Please put those words into context. What I remember reading at one point is VICIOUS PBs and SBTs should not be aloud off their leads.
> 
> So people are upset she has changed her wording as some took exception and attacked her? Can't win for losing with some that can't be satisfied unless a story is muffled or unless they can reverse this and blame the victim for daring to be upset and report and post what has happened to their dog and actually have the opinion that an aggressive dog should be kept on lead.
> 
> ...


I don't see any mention of certain breeds being viscous in your quote. I wrote it as best as I could remember it. Yours/hers does seem anti- breed though.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> I don't see any mention of certain breeds being viscous in your quote.


My quote is from memory. I went back and found where ouesi had quoted them.



> I wrote it as best as I could remember it. Yours/hers does seem anti- breed though.


That is just what I'm talking about.

"Seeming" antibreed by your perception doesn't mean it is antibreed.

I don't perceive it as anti breed in the least. I perceive it as anti loose viscous dogs. I don't find that the tiniest bit unreasonable.

It is not on Mafalda to try to figure out how others want to spin and interpret her words especially if they are those that are ready to read 'anti breed' very quickly into wording.

On top of that even if she WAS antibreed there would be NOTHING wrong with her posting the events on facebook as she saw them.

CC


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Malmum, are you saying that it's the dogs who are not loved and have a bad home life end up dog reactive and dog aggressive?


Not all dogs will, even some who are raised well can have issues but if they are bred for their reactiveness, from parents who too are particularly unstable then the two together can create an unstable dog.

Nature AND nurture both determine the character of any animal, dogs being no exception. But if someone sets out to deliberately want a reactive dog, I think how its raised plays an important part.

Floyd was carefully bred by people who knew what they were doing, his grandparents featured (probably still do) in many SBT books, breeder wanted me to show him. That kennel bred for temperament as well as looks and he was a true ambassador of his breed. Unfortunately so many breed them now just to earn cash or pass on to mates in exchange for material value. Is it any wonder some turn out unpredictable when they are bred for quantity and not quality?

ETA - I am not anti breed BUT I am breed wary these days and although I know it may not be the dogs fault when a dog is sinking its teeth into another you cannot help but dislike THAT dog as well. It's not right to walk a dog on the street without a collar/lead, it's not right for a dog to wilfully attack another without reason, its not right that its owner is careless enough for this to happen, it's not right that if it does the owner isn't equipped with the knowledge of how best to get the dog off but most of all its not right that other dog owners should have to walk in fear of other dogs who are out of control and in the hands of irresponsible, feckless owners. Whatever breed!


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## titann (Mar 20, 2013)

Oh poor dog. I'm feeling very sad


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Not all dogs will, even some who are raised well can have issues but if they are bred for their reactiveness, from parents who too are particularly unstable then the two together can create an unstable dog.
> 
> Nature AND nurture both determine the character of any animal, dogs being no exception. But if someone sets out to deliberately want a reactive dog, I think how its raised plays an important part.
> 
> ...


Interesting you should say that it's the owner who holds responsibility for ending up with a reactive and or aggressive dog. 

You might have a point, IDK... We have 3 dogs from irresponsible breedings and iffy backgrounds, two of which we did not raise ourselves. Not a one has ended up reactive and/or aggressive. Go figure...


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't believe genes are soley to blame. 

Genetics predispose dogs to certain behaviours and traits but its what the dog is exposed to during its upbringing that determines what behaviours it will show. 

In one of my books (can't remember which, will look) it explains how a stud dog was renowned for getting into cupboards to get things out. One of his pups started to exhibited the exact same behaviour as the stud, couldn't of been learnt as pup never met the stud. It's wasnt that pup inherited the ability to get into cupboards it's that pup was genetically predisposed to higher curiosity. Pup was able practice curiosity and learnt to get into the cupboards by chance. Why did non of the other pups learn to do it to?

Dogs are never born to bite. Yeah, it may be genetically predisposed to higher anxiety levels or fear or its flight, fight, avoid instinct but its all down to nurture, it's upbringing and life.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

comfortcreature said:


> This is the original version according to ouesi on page 8 of this forum - not the least bit objectionable unless someone wants to read into it meaning that is not there.
> 
> "We have been attacked by a *Pitt bull*. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. *Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places*"​




Are you joking? The comment clearly states that Pitbulls shold not exist or be be pets. It's a generic blanket comment covering an entire breed/type based on the incident and therefore quite anti-breed. It's not an interpretation on my behalf, more an understanding of the grammar and dictionary definitions of the words used. If you or anyone else can somehow interpret that as not being a comment directly aimed at pitbulls then please enlighten me.​


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

comfortcreature said:


> So people are upset she has changed her wording as some took exception and attacked her? Can't win for losing with some that can't be satisfied unless a story is muffled or unless they can reverse this and blame the victim for daring to be upset and report and post what has happened to their dog and actually have the opinion that an aggressive dog should be kept on lead.
> 
> CC


Please do get over yourself, no one has attacked the owners.  Well apart from announcing on fb that the owner of the bully is a dog fighter, cos you can tell that by looking at someone you know 

You obviously haven't been watching all of the fb activity, you obviously haven't noticed the comments that have been deleted, you haven't noticed that the owner of the cav hasn't only posted on her own pics. Lets not forget about the mysterious bite that she received :hand:

I (I being the key word here, this is MY opinion of the matter, you don't have to accept it, you don't have to agree with it, but for goodness sake stop with the patronising tones in your post ) don't think the accounts add up.. I am entitled to believe that when I DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS, YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS, NONE OF US WERE THERE.........


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

I take everything I read and see on the internet with a pinch of salt - as unless you were an actual witness you will never know, as they saying goes there are 3 sides to a story your side, their side and the truth x

as to demonising certain breeds - well by now you would think most intelligent and knowledgeable people would know its total twadle, I am wary when out of *ALL* dogs!!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I was referring to the comments underneath her picture which caption stated "these dogs should not be let off lead nor be pets or walked in public places" That said "these dogs should be destroyed".

However I find Mafalda's caption to her picture just as appalling. So I shouldn't let my SBT enjoy his life, enjoy his walks and keep him in solitude for what he is? :huh: My SBT who has been attacked by a springer, jack russel, chihuahua, labradoodle and labrador and not reacted on any occasion? My SBT who was kicked full force by a running child and still did not react? Tar him with a dirty brush because of a minority?

I will also comment how she said "I took the pictures because he gave me false details" or something like that. She took the pictures during the fight and they seemed quite clear and close up shots. How did he not notice her? Maybe because he was actually trying to get the dog off instead of fannying around taking pictures. How did she know he would give her false info during the fight?

Her story doesn't add up to me and that's just my opinion. A shame what happened to her dog all the same.

I'm sorry if I come across OTT but when you constantly have prejudice towards something you love so much and has never done anything wrong in his life you can understand my frustration at people who throw comments into the wind without knowing anything about the dog, apart from negative press.

I really do not understand humans sometimes. This breed is unfortunately preyed upon by awful types of people merely on how they look, are raised awfully and then blamed and destroyed for something they cannot help. Surely you should feel sad for them, sympathetic as dog lovers.

I do not care what anyone says there would NOT be this much hype around it if an older gentleman's border collie had attacked her dog. There just wouldn't.

It's like that saying "First they came for the german shepherds, then the rottweilers, now the pitbulls/Staffordshires...What happens when they come for your dogs?"


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> Are you joking? The comment clearly states that Pitbulls shold not exist or be be pets. It's a generic blanket comment covering an entire breed/type based on the incident and therefore quite anti-breed. It's not an interpretation on my behalf, more an understanding of the grammar and dictionary definitions of the words used. If you or anyone else can somehow interpret that as not being a comment directly aimed at pitbulls then please enlighten me.


No it certainly does not say Pitbulls should not exist as or be pets!!!

It does not say that at all!!!

That is exactly what I mean when I say some reading are putting their very own interpretation on it.



> We have been attacked by a Pitt bull. Spot is in emergency vet . Please pray for him. Please share this photo to raise awareness againts this sort of dogs! they should not exist, not be pets and not walked in public places"


You are interpreting the phrase 'this sort of dogs' to mean all Pitbulls. Patterdale Lover above has taken it to mean SBTs shouldn't be allowed to enjoy life.

Why are you doing that? Patterdale Lover has suggested it is because when owning these dogs you feel prejudiced against. I owned a German Shepherd at the height of the time when people had it in for them, a DA mixed breed that had to be out on muzzle (Collie/Spaniel mostly) and then a Husky. If you feel prejudiced against recognize it and deal with it then rather than attacking out.

I am interpreting the phrase 'this sort of dogs' to mean 'the sort of dog that would attack like this one did'. As Rocco suggested earlier in the thread. _"I think she means the sort of dog that so many youngsters get and use as weapons and to appear 'tough' here in the UK. Guns are illegal here, even carrying knives is an offence so a whole culture has developed aroundn owning 'tough' dogs and training them to attack. Bull breeds, particularly staffy crosses are favoured."_

I happen to agree with her. Dogs that the irresponsible want to keep and use as weapons so they can appear tough should NOT be kept as pets and should NOT be walked in public places off lead without a collar on.

Deciding that she means ALL Pitbulls or SBTs without asking for clarification from her is ridiculous. The on top of that to SPIN the idea that you THINK she doesn't like Pitbulls or SBTs to suggest her story does not add up and start attacking HER and her credibility, as has been done on this thread, is completely inexcusable.

IF someone thinks that she means she doesn't like all Pitbulls she has an open facebook page. Go ask her.

As she has clarified she was speaking about viscious dogs in posts following I think it would be a useless exercise.The fact that no one on here did ask her and decided to say the things they did about her without even asking is telling.

CC


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

'They should not exist'.

I don't understand how you can't interpret that as completely discriminatory and blanketed. It has very clear connotations that Pit Bulls should not ever have been bred. That they should not be alive. 

Or maybe, I just need to get new glasses. Perhaps I'm not seeing it clearly


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> 'They should not exist'.


Jordanrose because she did not specify what she meant by 'they'.

The ones who seem to easily feel 'prejudice' on this thread are all deciding 'they' means ALL Pitbulls and SBTs.

I believe ANY reasonable person would take her meaning to mean exactly what Rocco suggested above. I belive ANY reasonable person, if they felt she meant something different, but weren't sure, would ask. As she clarified MANY times after on her page it becomes easy to see what she meant even if there were doubts from the start.

So YOU read one way and others read another way and YOU want to insist you know what she meant!!!

Again - instead of condemning and gossiping, if you don't like the clarity she has given of how she feels since go ask her on her page!

Don't sit here and attack on a whisper of what you might think is evidence. It really is awful of people to do so.

CC


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## BottlePop (Feb 3, 2013)

labradrk said:


> I am not going to look.


I'm not either!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> Jordanrose because she did not specify what she meant by 'they'.
> 
> The ones who seem to easily feel 'prejudice' on this thread are all deciding 'they' means ALL Pitbulls and SBTs.
> 
> ...


No, after all that's in the thread you have chosen to look at it in a different light as much as you can.

Every single person I have discussed the caption with, without telling them what it is all about, have all take it as she is talking specifically about pitbulls and not all aggressive dogs.

I feel, had you read the same sentence without any of the hype and discussion it has recieved you would have perceived it as everyone else had...


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## Jordansaurus (Jan 7, 2013)

Can I just say ....

Yes this man and his dog need to be dealt with. 
There is no way that the man involved got any sort of pleasure from the whole experience, just the look on his face says it all. 
He needs to be given some sort of a slap on the wrist for letting his dog be off the lead in a public place if he knew what his dog was like around other dogs. 
No doubt he knew this dog was dog aggressive, impossible not to know if your out walking your dog all the time, constantly running into other dog walkers. 
The bloke did not purposefully set his dog onto another, he is clearly trying to get the dog off spot, and is clearly distressed at the situation too. 
The dog needs to be assessed by the appropriate people. If it turns out to be "type" then appropriate action needs to be taken e.g. PTS or licencing. 

Take another view ....

You are the owner of a dog that is dog aggressive, up until now you have let your dog loose in this area knowing that at that particular time of day no dog walkers are around. A quick run off the lead shouldn't hurt?
To your horror your dog spots another in the distance, and goes at it, before you even have the chance to retrieve your dog. 
You find yourself in the situation that this bloke was in, desperately trying to get your dog off another. 

- in this case we would all give the correct details, offer to pay for vet treatment etc etc. 

This person however is obviously an irresponsible dog owner, knew he would get in alot of trouble and have his dog taken from him and so he panics gives false details. 

IF HE HAD ANY OTHER BREED THIS PHOTO WOULD NOT HAVE GONE VIRAL. 
People need to understand that attacks like these happen every single day, involving numerous breeds. 

Because this is a bull type dog that throws every one off "OMG THAT DOG SHOULD BE PTS , ALL DOGS LIKE THAT SHOULD BE DESTROYED"
That dog could be a wonderful people dog at home, and could be a much loved pet.

What im trying to get at .....

These situations happen
This man should come forward and admit his mistakes and pay the price
Lets remember that any dog can be dog aggressive
Dont put the bull breeds down, they are amazing family pets when in the right hands
And for god sake I hope spot recovers soon, and his owners get justice soon. 

COME FORWARD , HAND YOURSELF IN , YOU CANNOT LET THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Jordansaurus said:


> Can I just say ....
> 
> Yes this man and his dog need to be dealt with.
> There is no way that the man involved got any sort of pleasure from the whole experience, just the look on his face says it all.
> ...


100% agree x


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

comfortcreature said:


> No it certainly does not say Pitbulls should not exist as or be pets!!!
> 
> It does not say that at all!!!
> 
> ...


Funny that when I emailed the original quote to everyone at work they all understood it in the same way - that pitbulls should not exist and not be kept as pets. Same as the several likes I have.

I am not "interpreting" it all. Like everyone else who understands it, I am reading it at face value and understanding it's literal meaning. The only person who is interpreting, or rather misinterpreting it, is yourself. You are making an assumption that is simply not inferred in the text, which seems to be influenced by her revised response and Rocco's assumption, changed following the fb comments due to the easily recognisable (for the majority) anti-breed message in the original comment.

Not sure where you're getting that I'm "attacking out" or "attacking her and her credibility". Are these just another misinterpretation on your behalf?


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> Jordanrose because she did not specify what she meant by 'they'.
> 
> The ones who seem to easily feel 'prejudice' on this thread are all deciding 'they' means ALL Pitbulls and SBTs.
> 
> ...


With due respect, you were not there either 

We are entitled to our own opinions- I, like many others here, take the stance that she feels these dogs are ALL dangerous; that NONE should be kept as pets.

In fact, a small minority are dangerous (and that's not just bullies, but all breeds).

There's no such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners.

Nobody's saying the incident is at all justified. We are unanimous that it is a horrendous situation, but like you have said yourself, nobody can know what happened.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

The owner has been found dog has been seized and a destruction order is being pushed forward for the dog.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Dogs Today Magazine
13 minutes ago · 
The police have made this announcement on the Cavalier dog bite incident and the subsequent Facebook search: "Bedfordshire Police have today seized the dog that was responsible for an attack on Spot the spaniel which occurred on the footpath around Ouse Valley Gold Club, Biddenham on Friday March 15.

"Enquiries to identify the owner of the animal were made via Bedfordshire Police Facebook page and the local media which resulted in the dog being brought into Greyfriars police station voluntarily by the owner this morning (Wed March 20).

"The dog is now the property of the RSPCA and an application for a destruction order will be made. The owner is not under arrest but further enquiries by Bedfordshire Police are now underway to establish the exact breed of the dog so that appropriate action against the owner can be taken.

So it looks like the dog is found guilty and is responsible for the attack not the man who owned the dog. Without a trial - just the death sentence being called for. The dog appears to be most guilty of having an irresponsible owner and I'm guessing probably inadequate training and socialisation but his human is not under arrest so far. The police called the dog a Staffie earlier when they were looking for the dogs owner... but few people can afford to defend a case where a dog is accused of being 'type' - if that is what this is turning into.
It looks likely though a dog will die as a result of this incident, just can't help thinking that the focus should be on the lack of responsible supervision and on humans being punished, not the dogs.
Unlike·Comment·Unfollow


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

'These kind of dogs' meaning any dogs that will attack in such a wilful manner surely! That's how I interpreted it anyway, not 'this breed of dog' because that wasn't what was said. 

I do think when its a bull breed that's involved people tend to read into it with negativity - have seen the same on many occasions before. Shame really as that causes friction when it needn't.


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## Jordansaurus (Jan 7, 2013)

RockRomantic said:


> Dogs Today Magazine
> 13 minutes ago ·
> The police have made this announcement on the Cavalier dog bite incident and the subsequent Facebook search: "Bedfordshire Police have today seized the dog that was responsible for an attack on Spot the spaniel which occurred on the footpath around Ouse Valley Gold Club, Biddenham on Friday March 15.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately theres not much the police can do in the case of the owner, all they can do is determine if the dog is dangerous and is to be destroyed. The fact that he came in voluntarily obviously means hes cracked under the pressure and has come to his senses.

I just hope that there is the best possible outcome, with all beings involved getting justice. Even if the dog is dangerous and pts, then that is best outcome for him in the end, who would want to live a life constantly at the end of a heavy chain, strangling itself for the chance to tear apart another dog  poor thing.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Jordansaurus said:


> I just hope that there is the best possible outcome, with all beings involved getting justice. Even if the dog is dangerous and pts, then that is best outcome for him in the end, who would want to live a life constantly at the end of a heavy chain, strangling itself for the chance to tear apart another dog  poor thing.


I do feel sad for the dog, but I just knew that it would be pts if found due to the publicity it has gathered 

I have to say though, just because a dog is DA, it doesn't mean it will be choking itself to get at other dogs for the rest of its life.

If the attack really did last 25 minutes then I honestly feel like a bit of hard work and training would do this dog wonders. There would be nothing left of that cav had my dog gotten hold of it  but he is well managed and receives loads of training. He walks happily by my side when I pass other dogs or walk along side a park full of dogs. He rarely bats an eyelid now  there is always room for improvement.


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## Jordansaurus (Jan 7, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> I do feel sad for the dog, but I just knew that it would be pts if found due to the publicity it has gathered
> 
> I have to say though, just because a dog is DA, it doesn't mean it will be choking itself to get at other dogs for the rest of its life.
> 
> If the attack really did last 25 minutes then I honestly feel like a bit of hard work and training would do this dog wonders. There would be nothing left of that cav had my dog gotten hold of it  but he is well managed and receives loads of training. He walks happily by my side when I pass other dogs or walk along side a park full of dogs. He rarely bats an eyelid now  there is always room for improvement.


Yes, I mean't this in a way as if he had stayed with his owner, and that this attack never did happen. You can imagine what he was like in this persons hands, and better pts than with him.

I do agree that some work would do him wonders, but this thought just hasnt come soon enough, he has been a victim of yet another irresponsible owner. Unlike you who has nipped this problem in the bud, before a situation like this arose for you, and turned your dog into a happy one


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It does state, RockRomantic, enquiries are being made so that appropriate action can be taken against the owner, so looks like he will be held accountable. 

Had a policeman call at my house yesterday evening, (no problems just a van I was suspicious of) and we were talking about the DDA. As he said and many know, you only have to feel sufficiently threatened by a dog, no bite or physical injury, for the police to seize it. In fact he said I should have reported the attack on Flynn because although its dog on dog and a civil matter, if any one person is traumatised by an attack it may be considered a seizable offence. So if I encountered a run in with said dog again, purely because it is off lead and out of its owners control, it should be reported. At the end of the day if people realised their dog could be taken just because it has attacked another dog and left the owner of the attacked dog feeling traumatised/threatened, maybe irresponsible people would take more care. He went on to say, these things are happening more and the public need to feel safe - quite agree. 

I don't think it would be seized in a one off attack but a second offence may not be taken lightly. From what I've read (and who knows if its true on FB as many quotes aren't), this dog has run ins before. If that's the case then the owner should have been more careful, as should the Mal owner who had two offences that I knew of. Not out right aggression but injuries with its claws to two people on separate occasions by jumping up. Another incident of it chasing after a dog leaving the other owner 'petrified' was also taken into consideration. The people complained and the second time it was seized, put in kennels for six month until cleared by a court because the injuries were considered accidental. As the PC said 'it only takes a complaint by a member of the public for us to HAVE to take action' - quite frightening really! Just two reports which anyone who didn't like you could make up. Of course the dog is assessed and hopefully would be deemed friendly if this dog is only handleable by the owner - if that is true I think it will be destroyed.

After the Mal case I decided to only let people my dogs know pet them because it seems they can be taken so easily, they don't have to be 'type' at all.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I have just seen this on Bedfordshire Police Page -

*20 March 2013

Dog Bite Incident Update

Bedfordshire Police have today seized the dog that was responsible for an attack on Spot the spaniel which occurred on the footpath around Ouse Valley Gold Club, Biddenham on Friday March 15.

Enquiries to identify the owner of the animal were made via Bedfordshire Police Facebook page and the local media which resulted in the dog being brought into Greyfriars police station voluntarily by the owner this morning (Wed March 20).

The dog is now the property of the RSPCA and an application for a destruction order will be made. The owner is not under arrest but further enquiries by Bedfordshire Police are now underway to establish the exact breed of the dog so that appropriate action against the owner can be taken.

*

I am pleased he has come forward - Done the decent thing - He should of done days ago.

BUT if this was a dog on dog attack how come a destruction order can be applied for?

Bitter sweet -  Not quite sure how I feel about it. Although I do know I wouldnt have wanted to bump into him on a walk.

Poor Dog - Another one let down by society.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have just seen this on Bedfordshire Police Page -
> 
> *20 March 2013
> 
> ...


Because the dog is of "type".


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Because the dog is of "type".


But the order of destruction will be made, stated before even determining the 'type'?


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> But the order of destruction will be made, stated before even determining the 'type'?


It's obvious what "type" the dog is, but during the application process they will be able to get their tape measures out just to check 
If they deem the dog to be a pit or a pit cross then they can prosecute the owner.

Due to the level of aggression it is probably for the best tbh because even if the dog can be rehabbed (given time and the right person I believe that is possible) not many people would be willing to home a dog with his history, so rather than having a lifetime in kennels it is probably for the best.

If this was another breed the destruct order wouldn't have been applied for this quickly.. Just my opinion of course as I can't read minds


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

Malmum said:


> As he said and many know, you only have to feel sufficiently threatened by a dog, no bite or physical injury, for the police to seize it.


For real? That's all it takes is for someone to "feel" threatened by a dog and the dog can be seized?? Holy cusswords, that's INSANE!! I've had people feel threatened by my dogs just walking them down the street at heel on a leash!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> It's obvious what "type" the dog is, but during the application process they will be able to get their tape measures out just to check
> If they deem the dog to be a pit or a pit cross then they can prosecute the owner.
> 
> Due to the level of aggression it is probably for the best tbh because even if the dog can be rehabbed (given time and the right person I believe that is possible) not many people would be willing to home a dog with his history, so rather than having a lifetime in kennels it is probably for the best.
> ...


I wouldn't say the dogs 'type' is obvious. He is quite short and stocky. Pitties are taller and leaner. Yeah he clearly bully breed, staffy cross, not necessarily an y pit in it. But yeah when it all comes down to it, it is what the tape measure says.

I feel this dog could be rehabilitated very easily but you are right, not many people want a dog with that kind of history and he is definitely better off leaving now then having a lifetime in kennels  so sad


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

sezeelson said:


> I wouldn't say the dogs 'type' is obvious. He is quite short and stocky. Pitties are taller and leaner. Yeah he clearly bully breed, staffy cross, not necessarily an y pit in it. But yeah when it all comes down to it, it is what the tape measure says.
> 
> I feel this dog could be rehabilitated very easily but you are right, not many people want a dog with that kind of history and he is definitely better off leaving now then having a lifetime in kennels  so sad


You don't have to look anything like a pit to be of type. Look at poor Lennox, and he didn't even bark at anyone 

But yes it is all very sad that irresponsible people have let this poor dog down.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Yeah, good point!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

The staffie was not `seized`. The owner went to the police station and handed the dog in because of the witch hunt orchestrated by this woman who stood taking photos and then embroidered a fabulous story about it. 
The police are going to have the staffie put to sleep. 
The spaniel is fine. The injuries were not serious. The spaniel`s owner has her photo in the tabloids. She has said that all staffies should be put down so I expect she`s happy.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> The staffie was not `seized`. The owner went to the police station and handed the dog in because of the witch hunt orchestrated by this woman who stood taking photos and then embroidered a fabulous story about it.
> The police are going to have the staffie put to sleep.
> The spaniel is fine. The injuries were not serious. The spaniel`s owner has her photo in the tabloids. She has said that all staffies should be put down so I expect she`s happy.


I'm not questioning you, but I sort of am  Do you have links or sources? 
I'm just floored and honestly rather confused by the latest updates...


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

ouesi said:


> For real? That's all it takes is for someone to "feel" threatened by a dog and the dog can be seized?? Holy cusswords, that's INSANE!! I've had people feel threatened by my dogs just walking them down the street at heel on a leash!


The wording in the legislation is this

(a)it injures any person; or .
(b)there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will do so,

just feeling scared is not enough


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I'm not questioning you, but I sort of am  Do you have links or sources?
> I'm just floored and honestly rather confused by the latest updates...


I'm trying to find more on it..

I just stumbled onto a thread I really with I hadn't


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have just seen this on Bedfordshire Police Page -
> 
> *20 March 2013
> 
> ...


Dogs Act 1871 covers dog on dog attacks, they can make a ciivil application using that.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

ouesi said:


> For real? That's all it takes is for someone to "feel" threatened by a dog and the dog can be seized?? Holy cusswords, that's INSANE!! I've had people feel threatened by my dogs just walking them down the street at heel on a leash!


That's what I was told yesterday by the Constable, off lead and considered 'out of control in a public place' and therefore could pose a threat to a member of the public, if someone complains or states fear of the loose dog its an entirely different matter. If its on a lead its under control and even if someone feels scared the dog presents no real danger.

Bedfordshire Police have made an official statement that the dog was seized. I believe the owner went to the police station but hadn't heard he did so with his dog, however it could just be a terminology of when a dog is taken (by whichever means) under the control of the police and not necessarily that they went to the house to take it. I agree with other posts though that its probably better off being pts rather than languishing in a kennel for months only to be destroyed later. I hope he doesn't die in vain and other owners take heed of what can happen if they don't control their dogs, at the very least by having them on leads. I wonder if this dog had had a lead and collar attached to it whether the outcome would have been different, don't know if it did but I see many here that do not, so think that's pretty common.

To me this dog def doesn't look 'type' too short and thick set, more Staff but just being a bull breed lessened its chances I feel. Although if it already has history, or owner known to the police it was doomed anyway.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

JordanRose said:


> With due respect, you were not there either
> 
> We are entitled to our own opinions- I, like many others here, take the stance that she feels these dogs are ALL dangerous; that NONE should be kept as pets.
> 
> . . .


Yes, we are all entitled to opinions, and have differing opinions but when ones opinion includes stating a person has the opposite belief from what they have stated themselves then that is far past just having an opinion.

What you are doing is contesting what she has stated herself and saying she feels the opposite of what she has openly stated.

No matter what you FEEL she has meant if she has offered and explanation and it is counter, it is her explanation that is the FACT. People seem to want to refuse to accept her own explanation and they keep substituting with what they FEEL she meant.

These are her own words on her facebook page:

_"I need to put a afew things right! my dog's photos have gone viral and I am getting crazy comments all day and night long. *Please be aware of the following: I am not here to support nor offend any specific dog breed.* I am not here to insult dog owners not their dogs. I merely want justice done and this dangerous dog cought. I want its owner made responsible. I am not here to offend bull/staffies owner either.* I respect your dogs as much as any others as long as you all are responsible dog owners.* I also have not spent the whole time taking pictures. I have been bitten trying to separate the dogs and the whole episode lasted for about 20/25 minutes when I realised my dog could dye I got the phone out as I felt i needed the proof to make sure this dog was going to be caught and the same for the owner. The 2 men in wholly hats were there to help me and they were essential to save spots life. It took me less then 1 minute for the photos to be taken. I suffered just as much emotionally as my dog did. Don't insult me, you might not know me! don't assume, please ask! THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT" - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0.1106163270&type=1&theater#!/mafalda.clewlow_​
. . . yet people keep repeating to others that she feels these dogs are ALL dangerous even though she has stated differently and had clarified already on March 16th.

It does not matter HOW MANY people might want to misinterpret what she has said. It does not matter one jot how many people thought she meant ALL pit bulls even though there was not once that she typed ALL pit bulls.

She clarified it her very self and posters on here are continuing anyway.

That is LYING. That is a horrendous thing to do to a person and there is no justification.

CC


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> That's what I was told yesterday by the Constable, off lead and considered 'out of control in a public place' and therefore could pose a threat to a member of the public, if someone complains or states fear of the loose dog its an entirely different matter. If its on a lead its under control and even if someone feels scared the dog presents no real danger.
> 
> Bedfordshire Police have made an official statement that the dog was seized. I believe the owner went to the police station but hadn't heard he did so with his dog, however it could just be a terminology of when a dog is taken (by whichever means) under the control of the police and not necessarily that they went to the house to take it. I agree with other posts though that its probably better off being pts rather than languishing in a kennel for months only to be destroyed later. I hope he doesn't die in vain and other owners take heed of what can happen if they don't control their dogs, at the very least by having them on leads. I wonder if this dog had had a lead and collar attached to it whether the outcome would have been different, don't know if it did but I see many here that do not, so think that's pretty common.
> 
> To me this dog def doesn't look 'type' too short and thick set, more Staff but just being a bull breed lessened its chances I feel. Although if it already has history, or owner known to the police it was doomed anyway.


Your constable is completely wrong and should read the legislation regarding this. Had the same argument with my friend in the Met,turned out I knew more about the DDA than they did.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Agree cc and wonder why this woman is still being slated for the dog attacking her dog. The fact that she got bitten is cause in itself for a destruction order, especially if she presses charges.

The thread I put up recently http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/294072-anyone-heard.html had a very different outcome because the mother (in her own words on FB, although own words seem not to count ) dropped charges because she didn't want this rescue Mal destroyed. It seems ridiculous to me but the dog was reprieved, goodness knows how!

It seems the DDA can be flouted and cases taken on merit according to how any particular police force deems fit. If in doubt destroy the dog.

Having said that the Mal was on lead, just being handled by a very lackadaisical person and very out of character in present climes, no doubt that will change as they become popular amongst feckless people - hope that doesn't happen with such large dogs.

At the end of the day the camera never lies and people can be as defensive as they like but anyone can see this dog was a threat, a danger to other dogs, bit a person regardless of circumstance and the majority of the general public will be relieved to see measures taken against such parties. It may be the owners fault but ultimately it was the dog who inflicted injury and as such that had to be addressed - however harsh that seems.

It's worrying how this case has attracted so much defence from forum members when we see almost daily how off lead dogs running up to on lead ones causes outrage. Replace the off lead dog with a bully viscously attacking another which it likely would have killed had it not been stopped and on this occasion the Cavs owner is having to defend herself. That is so hypocritical!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I can't believe that someone whose dog has been attacked is being made to feel like the guilty party! Nor can I believe that people not only make excuses for the vicious dog, but think it should/could be rehomed! FFS who in the right mind would want that in their home? A ticking time bomb would be a safer choice! Should be put down instantly, no ifs, no buts, its not safe, it mauls other dogs. Making excuses for dogs, especially that sort of dog biting beggars belief! Dogs shouldn't bite, not like that, any that bite like that should be destroyed, their not safe and not fit to be around people or other animals. NO excuses should be made for a dog seriously biting someone, its a line that shouldn't be crossed, and once it has there's no way back. If it bites it goes end of. If I'd seen someone with a dog like that walking I'd have gone back out of the park instantly. For the record, I do think the cav owner meant bull types, and as unpopular opinion as it may be, I fully agree with her. My honest opinion of those dogs is their not safe, their not sane, they aren't fit to be loose without a muzzle and on a lead, and they are no nice family pet, no matter what anyone says. I wouldn't have one in the house or even the garden. Yes it won't go down well, but that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to, same as the cav's owner. Oh and I seriously doubt a little ten pound odd cav could start a fight or hold its own with a crazed bloody pitbull.


What a load of uneducated anti-breed crap.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Agree cc and wonder why this woman is still being slated for the dog attacking her dog. The fact that she got bitten is cause in itself for a destruction order, especially if she presses charges.
> 
> The thread I put up recently http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/294072-anyone-heard.html had a very different outcome because the mother (in her own words on FB, although own words seem not to count ) dropped charges because she didn't want this rescue Mal destroyed. It seems ridiculous to me but the dog was reprieved, goodness knows how!
> 
> ...


The camera will lie as much as you want it to, or at least what you want it to show. That's always been my experience working with directors and actors.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Agree cc and wonder why this woman is still being slated for the dog attacking her dog. The fact that she got bitten is cause in itself for a destruction order, especially if she presses charges.
> 
> The thread I put up recently http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/294072-anyone-heard.html had a very different outcome because the mother (in her own words on FB, although own words seem not to count ) dropped charges because she didn't want this rescue Mal destroyed. It seems ridiculous to me but the dog was reprieved, goodness knows how!
> 
> ...


Interesting to see you say that after one of your dogs tore apart another. What measures have you taken to stop that happening to other dogs? I'm assuming that by your comments that the dog had to suffer for inflicting injury and you addressed it in a harsh manner, which I would assume by your rationale is to be pts, or are you a complete and utter hypocrite?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/273482-bruce-marty-had-fight-injury-pics.html


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I can't believe that someone whose dog has been attacked is being made to feel like the guilty party! Nor can I believe that people not only make excuses for the vicious dog, but think it should/could be rehomed! FFS who in the right mind would want that in their home? A ticking time bomb would be a safer choice! Should be put down instantly, no ifs, no buts, its not safe, it mauls other dogs. Making excuses for dogs, especially that sort of dog biting beggars belief! Dogs shouldn't bite, not like that, any that bite like that should be destroyed, their not safe and not fit to be around people or other animals. NO excuses should be made for a dog seriously biting someone, its a line that shouldn't be crossed, and once it has there's no way back. If it bites it goes end of. If I'd seen someone with a dog like that walking I'd have gone back out of the park instantly. For the record, I do think the cav owner meant bull types, and as unpopular opinion as it may be, I fully agree with her. My honest opinion of those dogs is their not safe, their not sane, they aren't fit to be loose without a muzzle and on a lead, and they are no nice family pet, no matter what anyone says. I wouldn't have one in the house or even the garden. Yes it won't go down well, but that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to, same as the cav's owner. Oh and I seriously doubt a little ten pound odd cav could start a fight or hold its own with a crazed bloody pitbull.


Put your brain in gear next time you post something 

Think your on the wrong forum love, this ones for animal lovers huh, Which clearly your not .

Then again by your past posts this post does not surprise me in the slightest!!!

Oh nearly forgot. ' in my opinion '. And yes, I'm being sarcastic!


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

An update

Look East news is reporting that the dog that attacked the little cavalier was handed into police yesterday


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> For the record, I do think the cav owner meant bull types, and as unpopular opinion as it may be, I fully agree with her. My honest opinion of those dogs is their not safe, their not sane, they aren't fit to be loose without a muzzle and on a lead, and they are no nice family pet, no matter what anyone says. I wouldn't have one in the house or even the garden. Yes it won't go down well, but that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to, same as the cav's owner. Oh and I seriously doubt a little ten pound odd cav could start a fight or hold its own with a crazed bloody pitbull.


Wow. I can't believe I just read that. In fact I read it 3 times to make sure I was reading it right. I'm speechless actually.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I can't believe that someone whose dog has been attacked is being made to feel like the guilty party! Nor can I believe that people not only make excuses for the vicious dog, but think it should/could be rehomed! FFS who in the right mind would want that in their home? A ticking time bomb would be a safer choice! Should be put down instantly, no ifs, no buts, its not safe, it mauls other dogs. Making excuses for dogs, especially that sort of dog biting beggars belief! Dogs shouldn't bite, not like that, any that bite like that should be destroyed, their not safe and not fit to be around people or other animals. NO excuses should be made for a dog seriously biting someone, its a line that shouldn't be crossed, and once it has there's no way back. If it bites it goes end of. If I'd seen someone with a dog like that walking I'd have gone back out of the park instantly. For the record, I do think the cav owner meant bull types, and as unpopular opinion as it may be, I fully agree with her. My honest opinion of those dogs is their not safe, their not sane, they aren't fit to be loose without a muzzle and on a lead, and they are no nice family pet, no matter what anyone says. I wouldn't have one in the house or even the garden. Yes it won't go down well, but that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to, same as the cav's owner. Oh and I seriously doubt a little ten pound odd cav could start a fight or hold its own with a crazed bloody pitbull.


1. The cav owner is not being made to feel like the guilty party. She is absolutely right to report the incident. I have repeatedly seen on here the recommendation to report it to the dog warden or police when something like this happens to forum members. 
Where she was wrong - in my opinion - was to insinuate that the dog's owner was a dog fighter, and had deliberately set the dog on hers. 
Additionally, her careless wording also make it look like the gentlemen helping her were involved in dog fighting. Yes, she recanted, but the damage was already done. Just looking at some of the comments on her pictures and the daily mail story show how those men were condemned by the general public. What a thanks they got!

2. Many people would want a "dog like that" and honestly, most dogs, without proper training and proper socialization, ARE "like that". Breed is irrelevant. Aren't you the one who posted about your dog who "nips" at people when they go to pet her? Why would YOU want a dog who nips? Oh yeah, because your dog is a great dog with a few issues that you're working on? Or then again, if your dog has shown willingness to put teeth on skin, maybe she's not fit to be loose without a muzzle? Maybe she's not fit to be a family pet?

3. I'm going to guess that cav weighs more than 10 pounds. But even so, size doesn't matter. Worst bite I ever got was from a toy breed. Meanwhile my dog who looks like a bully breed (don't know what he is, he's a rescued mutt) had a child fall on top of him while he was eating dinner, pulled himself out from under the child, licked the kid on the face, and went back to finish his meal. Can you say your collie - you know, the one who puts teeth on people - would do the same?

4. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled to my opinion that just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it. Not all opinions need to be shared  Especially not if they're hateful, bigoted, and mean spirited.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Agree cc and wonder why this woman is still being slated for the dog attacking her dog. The fact that she got bitten is cause in itself for a destruction order, especially if she presses charges.
> 
> The thread I put up recently http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/294072-anyone-heard.html had a very different outcome because the mother (in her own words on FB, although own words seem not to count ) dropped charges because she didn't want this rescue Mal destroyed. It seems ridiculous to me but the dog was reprieved, goodness knows how!
> 
> ...


To repeat what I posted above, the woman is not being slated for her dog getting attacked. Personally I don't even care if she's anti-bully breeds or not. Plenty of people don't like dogs, let alone bully breeds, and as far as I'm concerned, they're entitled to that opinion as long as it doesn't encroach on my rights as a dog owner. 
For me the issue is the assumptions being made based on a few pictures. Not just the assumptions the cav owner made (that the man must be a dog fighter), but the assumptions posters on this thread and the FB ones have made.

1. We don't know from the pictures that the dog was off lead. We just know he was off lead at the time of the fight. It's a safe *guess* that he was off lead, but it is also possible the dog slipped his collar and blew his recall - which has happened to many members here. 
2. We don't know from the pictures what led to the two dogs fighting. Most of us are going to assume the terrier started it, but again, for all we know, the cav ran up to the terrier barking and snarling and the terrier responded. I'm not saying it's okay what the terrier did, I'm just saying we can't tell from the pictures what led up to it.
3. We can't tell from the pictures that the terrier's owner is a dog fighter. Unless you want to judge him based on what he looks like which apparently some do. And here I thought we were in the 21st century....
4. People are defensive because of post like wobbles' above. I don't think that one needs any further explanation.

Malmum, forgive me for singling you out for a minute, but this is just a really good example of what I'm trying to say about double standards based on what breed the dog is and who owns the dog.

You say pictures don't lie. Let me present you with some pictures.



















If I told you that these injuries were caused by a larger dog who could have easily killed a dog the size of the injured one, would you think the larger dog showed restraint?
Can you conclude from these pictures that the dog who caused these injuries is a threat to other dogs?
Would you say the dog who caused these injures is a threat to humans?
(BTW, the dog who did this has also bitten his owner when she tried to stop him from going after prey. According to the owner it was a minor bite but it bled a lot and hurt a lot.)
Can you tell from these pictures who started the fight? What the fight was about? 
Would you assume the owner of the dog who did this is an irresponsible, feckless owner who allows their dog to run amok?
How you think a dog who can do this amount of damage should be "dealt" with?

Speaking of hypocrisy, it was your dog who caused those injuries above, wasn't it?

On another thread, a lovely forum member said about another incident "*there but for the grace of something go any of us*." I agreed, and commented that I wish more forum members understood this.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks Ouesi- saved me typing that reply


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm kinda with wobbles on this one. If you have a dog that can harm a member of the public or their dog it should be PTS end of. If you can't keep your 'dog on dog aggressive' pet muzzled, on a lead 24/7 outdoors it should be PTS. The owner of the attacking dog is 100% to blame when an aggressive dog or typed dog is envolved, the guys in the pic know darn well what their dog was like & what it was capable of, ((stereotyping absolutely!)) They allowed the situation to occur! May be out of ignorance, not caring, intentionally or otherwise. I will always cross the road, field, beach if I see a 'type' dog as I would never take the risk. 
If I'd seen those guys and their dog approaching I would of turned round/ picked up my dog/ exited the area.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I'm kinda with wobbles on this one. If you have a dog that can harm a member of the public or their dog it should be PTS end of. If you can't keep your 'dog on dog aggressive' pet muzzled, on a lead 24/7 outdoors it should be PTS. The owner of the attacking dog is 100% to blame when an aggressive dog or typed dog is envolved, the guys in the pic know darn well what their dog was like & what it was capable of, ((stereotyping absolutely!)) They allowed the situation to occur! May be out of ignorance, not caring, intentionally or otherwise. I will always cross the road, field, beach if I see a 'type' dog as I would never take the risk.
> If I'd seen those guys and their dog approaching I would of turned round/ picked up my dog/ exited the area.


And there it is folks. Note the plural. 
Good samaritans get lumped in with the dog owner.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I'm kinda with wobbles on this one. If you have a dog that can harm a member of the public or their dog it should be PTS end of..


ANY (yes absolutely ANY) dog has the capability to harm a member of the public and or their dog, they all have teeth, they all have a threshold over which they react...... so we are euthanising ALL dogs are we? really?


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> ANY (yes absolutely ANY) dog has the capability to harm a member of the public and or their dog, they all have teeth, they all have a threshold over which they react...... so we are euthanising ALL dogs are we? really?


No, just ones that HAVE bitten members of the public or attacked the general publics pets.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> No, just ones that HAVE bitten members of the public or attacked the general publics pets.


That is not what you wrote originally


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

If your horse or cow kicks a hiker walking through a field..
would you have the animal shot? 
If not - why? 
Perhaps because it was acting in a normal way for that animal. 
So... if you own a cat and it mangles a bird or mouse and happily brings it to you do you have the cat put down? 
Why not? 
You drive your car.. you knock over a child. Do you have the car crushed? 
Why not? 
People who have animals are under the obligation to prevent harm to others. The animal simply behaves as an animal. 
Very few dog bite incidents are clear cut. There are chains of causality, involving many factors. If a child fell over on to your dear ickle puppy and the puppy in pain bit the giant who was crushing him to death, would that be a reason to kill the puppy? Or is it more a question of the adults around taking the blame.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I'm not questioning you, but I sort of am  Do you have links or sources?
> I'm just floored and honestly rather confused by the latest updates...


BBC News
...............


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> That is not what you wrote originally


I said 'if you have a dog that can...' None of my dogs would ever attack another dog, I very very very much doubt any of them would even fight back if under attack. I can safely let them off in the knowledge the public & their pets around us are safe from harm 100%. If I had a dog with known breed traits/ potential/ knowledge of its behaviour and danger/ harm it could cause/ dog on dog aggressive it would be muzzled & on lead 24/7 (I would never own such a dog but if I did I would take no risks ever) they are animals and as owners you have control of the situation, the people, the places you take your dog. If your dog can't be trusted out in public it shouldn't be their.
I don't think a dog attacking another dog can be classed as normal behaviour (if that's the dogs normal behaviour it shouldn't be out in public) I'm not blaming the dog at all it's the owners!!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> None of my dogs would ever attack another dog, I very very very much doubt any of them would even fight back if under attack. I can safely let them off in the knowledge the public & their pets around us are safe from harm 100%.


Oh cool, you have a rare, jaw-less, tooth-less type of dog?

But seriously, can you really say "never"?

The few times my dogs have been attacked, you know what the shocked owners say? "He's NEVER done that before!"


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Oh cool, you have a rare, jaw-less, tooth-less type of dog?
> 
> But seriously, can you really say "never"?
> 
> The few times my dogs have been attacked, you know what the shocked owners say? "He's NEVER done that before!"


Yes I can, I would happily bet my life on it.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I said 'if you have a dog that can...' None of my dogs would ever attack another dog, I very very very much doubt any of them would even fight back if under attack. I can safely let them off in the knowledge the public & their pets around us are safe from harm 100%. If I had a dog with known breed traits/ potential/ knowledge of its behaviour and danger/ harm it could cause/ dog on dog aggressive it would be muzzled & on lead 24/7 (I would never own such a dog but if I did I would take no risks ever) they are animals and as owners you have control of the situation, the people, the places you take your dog. If your dog can't be trusted out in public it shouldn't be their.
> I don't think a dog attacking another dog can be classed as normal behaviour (if that's the dogs normal behaviour it shouldn't be out in public) I'm not blaming the dog at all it's the owners!!


You best start muzzling your dogs pretty quick then, they have teeth, they have the ability to do damage.. Just because you don't think they will do any damage makes no odds, unless you can read minds through pictures then you have no idea if the owner of the bully knew his dog was going to react in the way that he did...

Funny how "hear say" is so easily believed when it involves certain breeds  It's also funny how anyone that tries to point out that we don't actually know what happened is labeled as trying to shift blame :hand:

As for Wobbles rant, well lets just say I was expecting it :nonod: Her dog is ok, she is a collie so won't ever "turn" :nonod:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Yes I can, I would happily bet my life on it.


Then you have not thought it through............ given a certain set of circumstance, it is quite possible your dogs would bite.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Then you have not thought it through............ given a certain set of circumstance, it is quite possible your dogs would bite.


 sorry I know my dogs, what they react to what they don't, their personalities inside out, their temperaments, that of their lineage. I can understand if you have a dog with issues, breed traits, problems some people may not understand how I could 110% say my dog will never attack but I can...and I'm 100000% times sure 

Under pressure in an alien environment, accidentally trod on, scared, jumped from behind, pestered by an off lead dog, taunted & taunted....they would not attack/ bite.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I don't think a dog attacking another dog can be classed as normal behaviour!


Actually... it is. For dogs. If a dog feels threatened it is absolutely normal. 
Animals have the Fight / flee / freeze choice. They do not wail and expect Mummy to sort it out because they are not humans. 
Your dog will bite if that is the best option. Yes, even your dog. 
Your dog is a carnivore. He has no Morality. He knows no Laws. He reacts to what is happening in the way that works. 
I suggest you start watching David Attenbrough programmes. It will help you understand animal behaviour. 
We train dogs using their natural drives and instincts. Which are to hunt and kill. (Yes, even your dog!)Your dog would survive on a desert island. You wouldn`t. In fact you may well be eaten by him. 
We control everything in their lives, true - but their basic nature is animal.

And tbh that`s why I like them


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Hey MaisyMoomin, check out this article about cocker spaniels in one county in the US  
Beware The Bite Of `Excitable` Cocker Spaniels - Sun Sentinel



> Cocker spaniels accounted for only 59 of 2,234 bites, far less than German shepherds, which accounted for 301 bites. *But officials said that 23.6 percent of the cocker spaniel bites were severe enough to require stitches or hospitalization while only 13.8 percent of the German shepherd bites were considered severe.*


Interesting huh?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> sorry I know my dogs, what they react to what they don't, their personalities inside out, their temperaments, that of their lineage. I can understand if you have a dog with issues, breed traits, problems some people may not understand how I could 110% say my dog will never attack but I can...and I'm 100000% times sure
> 
> Under pressure in an alien environment, accidentally trod on, scared, jumped from behind, pestered by an off lead dog, taunted & taunted....they would not attack/ bite.


Really.............. :huh::huh::huh:

Yes you can say the circumstances would have to be extreme, yes you can say that you know your dogs, yes you can say that you are 99.9% sure they would not react in any circumstance, but to say NEVER is IMO just blinkered.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

FFS - I can't believe this thread it still going with people arguing against the victim of an attack. 

If this had been any other breed of dog that attacked, I suspect the victim and their dog would have received the utmost sympathy. 

Instead, they have been accused of being untruthful about the attack, raising hysteria! Facebook is used for all sorts of reason to raise awareness - and she used it to find the owner of the dog that attacked hers. So what - I get plenty of posts trying to find the owners of lost dogs etc. Can't see anything different in this case - simply someone using a networking site to track down the owner 

I used to have sympathy for staffie lovers because the breed was vilified by people who knew no better, but I'm beginning to lose that sympathy because of comments like the ones on this thread. 

You need to wake up and realise you are doing yourselves and the breed no favours by taking this stance. By all means promote the good in the breed, but by attacking and accusing the victim of an attack of being dishonest will lose any support you had. And if that comes from a dog lover, how do you think the non-dog loving public will see it


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Really.............. :huh::huh::huh:
> 
> Yes you can say the circumstances would have to be extreme, yes you can say that you know your dogs, yes you can say that you are 99.9% sure they would not react in any circumstance, but to say NEVER is IMO just blinkered.


I had a friend that trusted her animals 100%, we tried to get her to understand that you can never trust an animal 100% but she wouldn't have it..

She was trampled in a field by her horse because she spooked when the owner was sitting on the floor beside her :nonod:

I trust my cat, however I won't allow small children to rub her belly because she is a cat and those claws can do a lot of damage even by accident...


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Hey MaisyMoomin, check out this article about cocker spaniels in one county in the US
> Beware The Bite Of `Excitable` Cocker Spaniels - Sun Sentinel
> 
> Interesting huh?


Sorry but I'm not even going to open the link & waste my time reading it especially when it's US based.
It won't tell me anything about my dogs


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

hmmm there are things I know I can trust my dogs on, and then there are things I just dont chance, I dont allow my minded children alone with my dogs because I cant protect my dogs/the children for those unpredictable instances ........................... by the way my dogs are spaniels x

*ALL* dogs carry the propensity to react in an aggressive way x


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Maisymoomin you never fail to astonish me in your blinkered views .

I sincerely hope you are never proved wrong :nonod:


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> sorry I know my dogs, what they react to what they don't, their personalities inside out, their temperaments, that of their lineage. I can understand if you have a dog with issues, breed traits, problems some people may not understand how I could 110% say my dog will never attack but I can...and I'm 100000% times sure
> 
> Under pressure in an alien environment, accidentally trod on, scared, jumped from behind, pestered by an off lead dog, taunted & taunted....they would not attack/ bite.


No one can safely have that level of trust over an instinctual animal. You 'think' you know someone and they turn around and amaze you. And this is a person, the same species as us.

My raven is bullet proof, never socialised with horses, cow, sheep etc. but when we come across them she acts like nothing is there. Apart from socks you can take anything away from her. The first sign of trouble her instinct is to bolt and approached and cornered she lowers her head an 'takes it'. The kids have near tortured her, she plays along happily or rather willingly. She won't even play with small toys as she will have to bite close to my hands. And all the things you mention in your post.

She has never growled (bar the socks, and even this is more a playful growl) nipped or reacted defensively in any any way what so ever.

Do I trust her 100% in situations she has proven herself well in?

Never, personally I think only a fool would.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> No, just ones that HAVE bitten members of the public or attacked the general publics pets.


Have bitten

Suggesting there HAS been a first time.

What if this was the staffs first time? Why should any dog be taken notice of AFTER they have already bitten?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> I can't believe that someone whose dog has been attacked is being made to feel like the guilty party! Nor can I believe that people not only make excuses for the vicious dog, but think it should/could be rehomed! FFS who in the right mind would want that in their home? A ticking time bomb would be a safer choice! Should be put down instantly, no ifs, no buts, its not safe, it mauls other dogs. Making excuses for dogs, especially that sort of dog biting beggars belief! Dogs shouldn't bite, not like that, any that bite like that should be destroyed, their not safe and not fit to be around people or other animals. NO excuses should be made for a dog seriously biting someone, its a line that shouldn't be crossed, and once it has there's no way back. If it bites it goes end of. If I'd seen someone with a dog like that walking I'd have gone back out of the park instantly. For the record, I do think the cav owner *meant bull types, and as unpopular opinion as it may be, I fully agree with her. My honest opinion of those dogs is their not safe, their not sane, they aren't fit to be loose without a muzzle and on a lead, and they are no nice family pet, no matter what anyone says*. I wouldn't have one in the house or even the garden. Yes it won't go down well, but that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to, same as the cav's owner. Oh and I seriously doubt a little ten pound odd cav could start a fight or hold its own with a crazed bloody pitbull.


Cant quite believe I have read this. 

What a sweeping breedist comment from someone who quite obviously knows very little about dogs.

Im quite frankly speechless - And thats coming from a non bull breed owner.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> Oh and I seriously doubt a little ten pound odd cav could start a fight or hold its own with a crazed bloody pitbul


Oh I can assure you that a 10lb dog is just as capable of starting a fight as a 100lb dog is. Hold it's own? I doubt that _very_ much but it could certainly still start it.

And no, I'm not saying that's what happened in this situation. Just annoys me that so many people think it's never the small dog or the dog who came of worst at fault.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm quite breedist.. 

When ever I see a staffie or type looking dog playing and having a great time, I almost always have to approach  I can't just cross the road or give it a wide birth. It's so stressful watching my dog have a great time and energetic play! I mean both could turn at any minute right? Both being bully's.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Sorry but I'm not even going to open the link & waste my time reading it especially when it's US based.
> It won't tell me anything about my dogs


Then how can you expect a negative Facebook story to tell you about everyone else's bull breed 

And actually my father breeds working cockers and know a lot of cocker people.... Most will tell you cockers have high snapping statistics. Higher than SBTs I think.... and that's in good ole blighty.

Jus sayin


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## ch4r1ie (Feb 14, 2013)

This is a post from Beds Police in reply to someones question of why the owner has not been arrested:

"while the owner is not yet under arrest an investigation to establish the breed of the dog will now be done. If it is an illegal breed a charge will be brought under the Dangerous Dogs Act - if it is a cross breed and the DDA does not apply then other legislation will be used to prosecute the owner. This takes time to establish which is why no immediate action has been taken against the owner - but as the statement says enquiries continue and action WILL be taken."

Although the dog has proven itself to be a danger, regardless of provocation or not, I do not believe it is because he is a certain breed. I completely blame the owner, and the owner should be punished. This attack happened just a few miles from my home. It is amazing the amount of chavs in Bedford, who choose to own these "type" dogs, usually staffies, and train them to act aggressively just so they can look hard. It makes me sick, and sad


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

of course they would never suffer with this !!

CSC/Cocker Questions/Rage Syndrome

(a UK link)


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Then how can you expect a negative Facebook story to tell you about everyone else's bull breed
> 
> And actually my father breeds working cockers and know a lot of cocker people.... Most will tell you cockers have high snapping statistics. Higher than SBTs I think.... and that's in good ole blighty.
> 
> Jus sayin


You'll be telling me solids are more prone to suffering rage next hmy: :lol:


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> of course they would never suffer with this !!
> 
> CSC/Cocker Questions/Rage Syndrome
> 
> (a UK link)


:lol: :lol: :lol: you beat me :lol: that's so funny!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

So you know more than anyone else in history about ALL cockers do ya? WOW


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> So you know more than anyone else in history about ALL cockers do ya? WOW


I know more than a quick blinkin search on google :lol:

****

Edited: is that frantic google searching I hear!! I really really have no need or want or will even look at copied & pasted links about outdated poor research from the 1980's, usa or other... so I really wouldn't bother


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I know more than a quick blinkin search on google :lol:


of course thats assuming that I dont own a Springer or a Cocker nor have I bred either dog!!

more fool you there x

no just grappling with photobucket!! doh!!!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I know more than a quick blinkin search on google :lol:
> 
> ****
> 
> Edited: is that frantic google searching I hear!! I really really have no need or want or will even look at copied & pasted links about outdated poor research from the 1980's, usa or other... so I really wouldn't bother


It's awesome that you are privy to everyones experiences and knowledge base... The fbi could really use someone like you :hand:


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> of course thats assuming that I dont own a Springer or a Cocker nor have I bred either dog!!
> 
> more fool you there x
> 
> no just grappling with photobucket!! doh!!!


You really really really should know alot better then  not sure what a springer has to do with it or breeding for that matter, tonnes of uneducated people breed.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> You really really really should know alot better then


What, that ANY dog can bite and cause harm


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> You really really really should know alot better then  not sure what a springer has to do with it or breeding the for hat matter, tonnes of un educated people breed.


What are you trying to do defend exactly?

And they say pro bully people get defensive!?

No breed is more aggressive then the next

No breed is less aggressive then the next.

I have met some nasty cockers in my time, but also some very sweet ones.

I still think it is very naive to think you can ever trust an animal 110%. That's how accidents happen


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

B3rnie said:


> What, that ANY dog can bite and cause harm


Exactly this! If you say that you're dog would never bite then either you do not have a dog, but instead a plushie toy or you have little grasp on a dogs threshold level.

One day you may be bitten. How much are you willing to bet your first words will be "It was unprovoked!" if it was your own dog??


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

None of the above, posting a link about rage by a cocker owner (although looking at the pic it's most definitely not 100% cocker in my opinion) is just plain silly 

I'm a responsible, educated owner  I trust my dogs fact! Im more than happy with that.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> You'll be telling me solids are more prone to suffering rage next hmy: :lol:


Seeing as these people breed some of the best working cockers in this country I think they know their stuff.

Edit to add lets hope people see how thinking all bull breeds should be confined or kept in solitude are just as idiotic as you think the people in the 80s were about cockers


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> What are you trying to do defend exactly?
> 
> And they say pro bully people get defensive!?
> 
> ...


And how the, "s/he's never done that before!" people are created .


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Gemmaa said:


> And how the, "s/he's never done that before!" people are created .


EXACTLY!!! Urgh, people are idiots at times!


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## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

A distressing scenario indeed. For anyone who unfortunately has to handle an affray such as this, do not GRAB the victim dog, try to remain calm and simply deal with the culprit, in this case it looks to be a Staff/cross. Securing the victim can in many cases make matters worse, creating a tug of war and increasing the damage to the victim.
Don't beat the culprit dog, scream or shout, that is how fighting dogs are trained and it increases their excitement and desire to continue.
There are ways of removing the jaw of the culprit from the victim, but this is best addressed with a professional trainer, experienced in such matters.
If you were to say, poke the eye of the offending dog with a stick you run the risk of offending its' owner who will not take kindly to such action and probably let the dog continue whilst you are assaulted. Dogs do, after all reflect in many cases, their owners.
Avoiding confrontation is best practice.
When walking my dogs I always wear stout shoes, have a support stick for my stability and a length of brush stale around 8 inches long. (To throw for the dogs of course)
This is unfortunately a fact of animal life and it happens, but with correct training it needn't.
Willylee


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ch4r1ie said:


> This is a post from Beds Police in reply to someones question of why the owner has not been arrested:
> 
> "while the owner is not yet under arrest an investigation to establish the breed of the dog will now be done. If it is an illegal breed a charge will be brought under the Dangerous Dogs Act - if it is a cross breed and the DDA does not apply then other legislation will be used to prosecute the owner. This takes time to establish which is why no immediate action has been taken against the owner - but as the statement says enquiries continue and action WILL be taken."
> 
> Although the dog has proven itself to be a danger, regardless of provocation or not, I do not believe it is because he is a certain breed. I completely blame the owner, and the owner should be punished. This attack happened just a few miles from my home. It is amazing the amount of chavs in Bedford, who choose to own these "type" dogs, usually staffies, and train them to act aggressively just so they can look hard. It makes me sick, and sad


Thanks for that - I concur.



> No breed is more aggressive then the next


I think the point is that some breeds are more reactive than others 

Never mind, Maisiemoomin - if nothing else, you appear to have redirected the wrath of those away from attacking the victim of the attack


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

The pictures are awful. Dog attacks must be every dog owners worst nightmare  Well I know it is one of mine anyway. 
It is tragic that out of this situation one dog has suffered pain and terrific trauma, whilst the other will likely lose its life. 

What this thread has taught me more than anything is that if something like this ever did happen to me- I wouldn't post or go public about it. The amount of presupposition, judgement and pass remarkable comments have been crazy. On every side of the argument! I doubt I could handle it on top of the incident itself.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Never mind, Maisiemoomin - if nothing else, you appear to have redirected the wrath of those away from attacking the victim of the attack


No one has attacked anyone, maybe you should actually read the responses.. Much can be missed when you only read what you want to


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Seeing as these people breed some of the best working cockers in this country I think they know their stuff.
> 
> Edit to add lets hope people see how thinking all bull breeds should be confined or kept in solitude are just as idiotic as you think the people in the 80s were about cockers


Wow! please feel free to copy & paste where I said that???......

Do you know their are at least 10 other breeds that suffer from so called rage syndrome?...How vets misdiagnose? Is it down to reduced hormone? Seizure? Inherited? Is it mental relapse aggression? In fact their is no conclusive evidence. I'd be interested to see what conclusion the working cocker breeders have come up with? Do you have some links? Or is it verbally you've found out your findings on rage via them?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I think the point is that some breeds are more reactive than others


What's with the  all the time! I keep reading your comments as sarcasm? Lol

But yeah I guess to an extent. But still, happy, healthy upbringing and knowledgable training will unlikely produce a dog that reacts negatively.

Some loved staffs and staff X's are some the most stable and non reactive dogs I have met where most people have said they are more reactive to other dogs.

In November a friend of mine was walking her 4 staffie dogs. One of her dogs was attacked by a pack of three dogs and not once did her dog bite back in defence and all 3 other dogs immediately recalled without getting involved. The damage was so bad that he still may have his leg amputated nearly 4 months after the attack.

My staff is reactive because is was crated 90% of his baby life, when out of the crate he was picked on and attacked by various older and adult dogs. This situation, in any case would make a dog more reactive.

I might have completely misunderstood your comment though?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> No one has attacked anyone, maybe you should actually read the responses.. Much can be missed when you only read what you want to


You continue to live in your little bubble, but it won't do your beloved breed any good. - that's all I can be bothered to say


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Never mind, Maisiemoomin - if nothing else, you appear to have redirected the wrath of those away from attacking the victim of the attack


Also, you seem to be the only person still bringing the owner of the cav up?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> You continue to live in your little bubble, but it won't do your beloved breed any good. - that's all I can be bothered to say


Err, I love ALL breeds thank you. I like my bubble in that case tho, I would much prefer to be somewhere that doesn't jump because someone, somewhere on the interwez said it was so :nonod:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> Also, you seem to be the only person still bringing the owner of the cav up?


   Because that's what the thread's about??? LOL But, I can't be bothered anymore so will leave you to your fun.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

That poor little mite.  How horrific for the owners, everyone's worst nightmare.

The argument can go on forever about nature/nurture etc.

I do have one genuine question though. If it is foolhardy to make a blanket statement such as my dog would never bite, is it not just as foolhardy to say that an aggresive dog is NEVER down to the breed? 

It is not always the upbringing or owner that makes a dog act the way it does, genetics does come down to it _sometimes_, just like it does when a dog naturally flushes or herds, they may not be trained to do it, but they still do.

Rough collies haven't worked for generations, yet there are many, mine included who have the herding instinct.

OK bring on the attack, I'm ready!!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Wow! please feel free to copy & paste where I said that???......
> 
> Do you know their are at least 10 other breeds that suffer from so called rage syndrome?...How vets misdiagnose? Is it down to reduced hormone? Seizure? Inherited? Is it mental relapse aggression? In fact their is no conclusive evidence. I'd be interested to see what conclusion the working cocker breeders have come up with? Do you have some links? Or is it verbally you've found out your findings on rage via them?


I said nothing about "cocker rage" hun  I said that cockers actually tend to have a higher snapping rate than SBTs but thanks for the education


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I said nothing about "cocker rage" hun  I said that cockers actually tend to have a higher snapping rate than SBTs but thanks for the education


Ahh I see I thought you were implying some working cocker breeders new their stuff?!? Must of miss read hun.

Snapping rate :lol: certainly less likely to rip your pals pet to bits!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> That poor little mite.  How horrific for the owners, everyone's worst nightmare.
> 
> The argument can go on forever about nature/nurture etc.
> 
> ...


I'm not attacking! I am just keen on the genes  so no insult or anything meant by my post!

As I mentioned before, genes will predispose an animal to a certain feeling/behaviour. Curiosity, Oooo what's in the bush!? Omg that was so satisfying! And the behaviour is self rewarding so becomes more common. It's nature that determines curiosity levels and nurture as to how that curiosity is expressed. What if the flushing breed dog never sees a park in its life? After a certain age it is unlikely to suddenly start flushing when it sees a bush.

I think the breed determines how a dog would cope with stress for example and how it would more likely release that pent up energy? But it's down to nurture whether or not that dog will ever suffer with stress.

I hope that makes sense lol?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> I'm not attacking! I am just keen on the genes  so no insult or anything meant by my post!
> 
> As I mentioned before, genes will predispose an animal to a certain feeling/behaviour. Curiosity, Oooo what's in the bush!? Omg that was so satisfying! And the behaviour is self rewarding so becomes more common. It's nature that determines curiosity levels and nurture as to how that curiosity is expressed. What if the flushing breed dog never sees a park in its life? After a certain age it is unlikely to suddenly start flushing when it sees a bush.
> 
> ...


But then every dog suffers stress to a greater or lesser degree. Depends what triggers a dog.

I suppose some may say the dog was stressed when he attacked the other one but some dogs cower when stressed and others attack.

Like I said if it ignorant to say your dog will never attack, in the reverse, it must be ignorant to say no dog attack is because of the breed.

Genetics play a big part in every dog, all of Alfies relatives act so similar to each other with their herding and tipping food and water bowels and begging people to rub their belly, all things their sire does too.

I also know that people roll their eyes at those who say their dog would never bite, but I have had a dog you could do absolutely anything to, anyone could, including an arm shoved up his bum and bathing of mouth wounds and the dog never one turned his lip up. He never even nipped as a puppy either and it was always like he had no teeth. He would never, ever of bit anyone or any dog and never did in fourteen and a half years.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> But then every dog suffers stress to a greater or lesser degree. Depends what triggers a dog.
> 
> I suppose some may say the dog was stressed when he attacked the other one but some dogs cower when stressed and others attack.
> 
> ...


Yes but that fight/flight/freeze instinct is a dog thing, it is not a breed thing.

And yes, when a dog attacks another its stress levels are likely to be high. Why would a dog attack another if it was happy? It is survival, if it feels threatens it will retaliate. Human beings get stressed and lash out, sometimes physically.

It is nurture that determines this. You may of seen it? But I watch a doc on human genetics phycology. Then brain or killers where scanned and their brains where structures differently - genetics 
But, a man had the brain scan matching those of the killers and had never murdered anyone, happy man with a wife and kids - nurture

Nature predisposed him to all the traits and make up that is clearly in people who have killed another human being but it was nurture that determined whether or not he would be a murderer.

My point it is, no matter what breed and genes you are born with it is ultimately you nurturing that determines what traits and genes will shine through. I know genes play a massive part in it or all dogs will be very much the same!

There are breed differences in behaviour yes just as there are families.

ETA: yes raven is very much like that, she had a 12inch gash down her shoulder which I had to clean, poke and prod. Nothing from her even when the stitches where removed. She has her anal glands expressed every two months, again nothing and she knows it coming as have been doing this for over a year. She literally would not hurt a fly! I am still not naive enough to presume how she will act in every single circumstance though. Maybe it's because I have handled aggressive dogs so I know how quickly things can go wrong and how much damage they can do so I'm naturally earring on the careful side?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> It is nurture that determines this. You may of seen it? But I watch a doc on human genetics phycology. Then brain or killers where scanned and their brains where structures differently - genetics
> But, a man had the brain scan matching those of the killers and had never murdered anyone, happy man with a wife and kids - nurture
> 
> Nature predisposed him to all the traits and make up that is clearly in people who have killed another human being but it was nurture that determined whether or not he would be a murderer.


Yes I have seen this, however my thoughts were and are, 'not yet', he hasn't killed yet or that we know of. One day he could wake up and, god forbid, kill his family as others have done out of the blue.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> ETA: yes raven is very much like that, she had a 12inch gash down her shoulder which I had to clean, poke and prod. Nothing from her even when the stitches where removed. She has her anal glands expressed every two months, again nothing and she knows it coming as have been doing this for over a year. She literally would not hurt a fly! I am still not naive enough to presume how she will act in every single circumstance though. Maybe it's because I have handled aggressive dogs so I know how quickly things can go wrong and how much damage they can do so I'm naturally earring on the careful side?


I would just enjoy her for the placid dog she is tbh, but that's just me. Like I said I knew just how Billy would be with everything and everyone, placid as anything. He never felt threatened or defensive, he just 'was' if that makes any sense.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Yes I have seen this, however my thoughts were and are, 'not yet', he hasn't killed yet or that we know of. One day he could wake up and, god forbid, kill his family as others have done out of the blue.


'That we know of' haha that's a scary thought :/ lol

You do have a very good point though and it is quite an extreme example. Maybe if the brains of dogs could be scanned and truly determine if there are in fact similar differences in breed? I would so love to study that!

I still don't believe breed is to blame though when it comes down to it. It is up to us do our research and provide our dog with what it needs to grow up into a happy healthy dog.

Raven is a Labrador, the dog that wouldn't hurt a fly. Yet the most aggressive/dangerous dog I have come across was also Labrador.

Pitbulls - where killed if they so much as growled at its handler because it was vital these dogs could be handled while ramped up and also after injury. So how come pitbulls are killing/injuring humans now? This goes completely against there genetics.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I would just enjoy her for the placid dog she is tbh, but that's just me. Like I said I knew just how Billy would be with everything and everyone, placid as anything. He never felt threatened or defensive, he just 'was' if that makes any sense.


Oh I really do enjoy having a such a placid dog! She is so easy but it does not mean I treat her differently to how I treat my other dogs. Yes lol that makes total sense to me  she makes life very easy for me 

But rules in this house, no dogs near baby for example. I know raven would never do anything to her and even Rossi turns to jelly around her but this is just the rules in my house.

Maybe if I only had raven things might be a little more relaxed? But all my dogs are equal here


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Personally, I think the owner of this dog, who trained him or treated him in such a way too cause this aggression needs putting down. I see both dogs as victims in this situation...that's just my opinion though


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Pixieandbow said:


> Personally, I think the owner of this dog, who trained him or treated him in such a way too cause this aggression needs putting down. I see both dogs as victims in this situation...that's just my opinion though


I agree with your opinion


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Pixieandbow said:


> Personally, I think the owner of this dog, who trained him or treated him in such a way too cause this aggression needs putting down. I see both dogs as victims in this situation...that's just my opinion though


The owner may be a good guy, we don't really know anything about him do we? Doesn't mean he 'trained' his dog to be this way, it could be in the dogs heritage, the parent dogs.

If humans have mental illness/diseases that run in families I don't see why dogs can't have the same. It could just be down to irresponsible breeding and nothing to do with how he was raised at all, although of course that could also play a part if he were abused in some way!


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Malmum said:


> The owner may be a good guy, we don't really know anything about him do we? Doesn't mean he 'trained' his dog to be this way, it could be in the dogs heritage, the parent dogs.
> 
> If humans have mental illness/diseases that run in families I don't see why dogs can't have the same. It could just be down to irresponsible breeding and nothing to do with how he was raised at all, although of course that could also play a part if he were abused in some way!


I see what you are saying...but if he knew his dog was prone to this behaviour why not take precautions against it? Why not keep it on lead and muzzle it? I understand that some dogs are unpredictable, and all of them can take us by surprise...but from what I can gather on Facebook, our local news and our local radio station, this dog has done this before


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Pixieandbow said:


> . . . I see both dogs as victims in this situation...that's just my opinion though


Absolutely agree with this.

CC


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

The comment about people wanting 'a dog like that' were regarding the breed / type I think. No normal person wants an aggressive dog, but most bull breeds are NOT aggressive. The vast majority are loving, stable family pets no more dangerous than any other dog. 

As for what the reports say don't believe everything you read in the Sun! The media go wild for bull breed stories, but don't bother with 'nice' breeds biting, they rarely even make local news. All the genuine studies done over many years have shown that bull breeds are no worse than any other breed.

And as for one bite and that's it, the dog has turned... What old fashioned, inaccurate nonsense. You'll be saying feeding them raw meat turns them savage next!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Pixieandbow said:


> I see what you are saying...but if he knew his dog was prone to this behaviour why not take precautions against it? Why not keep it on lead and muzzle it? I understand that some dogs are unpredictable, and all of them can take us by surprise...but from what I can gather on Facebook, our local news and our local radio station, this dog has done this before


Seems to some people that is not important  as I have said on here the one that attacked Flynn is still off lead and yards ahead of it's owner. They yell at it but it takes absolutely no notice, so I now walk my dogs in a private field to avoid them. TBH I even scan the whole street before I take them literally twenty yards from my door to car, that's how worried I am of seeing it when I'm with the dogs. It's not fair to feel so intimidated by any dog/owner but not much else you can do other than avoid. If he does it again I've been told to phone the police and let them know but don't know what they'll do and because the owners are [email protected] you wonder about reprisals towards your own dogs if you do report them. They are in a win win situation but I hope they know about this case and think what could happen if their dog is ever in the position to bite a person during an attack, it can easily happen with a dog fight.

I had read that this was not a one off incident with this dog and I would imagine there are many dog owners in that area who are now relieved of the outcome. When it happens to you and your dog you don't consider how the other dog has been raised, you just want it our of the area for the safety of your own.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Is anyone else concerned about the bullie? 

With the reaction it's got, he might be scared to take it out and thus it might not get walked or let outside.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Seems to some people that is not important  as I have said on here the one that attacked Flynn is still off lead and yards ahead of it's owner. They yell at it but it takes absolutely no notice, so I now walk my dogs in a private field to avoid them. TBH I even scan the whole street before I take them literally twenty yards from my door to car, that's how worried I am of seeing it when I'm with the dogs. It's not fair to feel so intimidated by any dog/owner but not much else you can do other than avoid. If he does it again I've been told to phone the police and let them know but don't know what they'll do and because the owners are [email protected] you wonder about reprisals towards your own dogs if you do report them. They are in a win win situation but I hope they know about this case and think what could happen if their dog is ever in the position to bite a person during an attack, it can easily happen with a dog fight.
> 
> I had read that this was not a one off incident with this dog and I would imagine there are many dog owners in that area who are now relieved of the outcome. When it happens to you and your dog you don't consider how the other dog has been raised, you just want it our of the area for the safety of your own.


I know. Bow is muzzled and on lead all the time. The muzzle will come off when I'm confident he's friendly, but he may always be on lead. We went to a pet store at the weekend and there was a staffy cross there, it was growling and barking at everyone...and the owner was a young lad who looked like he wanted to be tough.

The thing that made me sad is that I know staffies and similar are lovely. My OH dog sits one called Max (who adores me and who can blame him ) but from being a puppy he's been trained well and treated with love and kindness. I hate seeing staffies and crosses that aren't treated as well. Unfortunately max is 13 and not well though :crying:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

sharloid said:


> Is anyone else concerned about the bullie?
> 
> With the reaction it's got, he might be scared to take it out and thus it might not get walked or let outside.


The owner handed his dog into his local Police station yesterday morning.

The Police have applied for a destruction order I believe.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

emmaviolet, your questions are valid. Breed traits are indeed very real. There is a reason cowboys don't herd cattle with bloodhounds while riding zebras 

ALL dogs are predators. From a sweet little papillon pouncing on a squeaky toy, to a pointer pointing, to a collie penning sheep, to a greyhound racing after a lure, to a working line GSD taking down a fleeing suspect, it's all on a continuum of predation. 
We have taken that instinct to kill prey and honed it in to the myriad of different jobs we ask our dogs to do. But it's all founded on the fact that our dogs are predators at heart. 

Additionally, dogs use their mouths much like we use our hands. The human who can play the most beautiful concert on the piano, is just as capable of turning those pianist hands in to fists and punching with them. Same with dogs. The service dog with a mouth soft enough to remove his handler's socks, is still perfectly capable of using those same teeth to crush bone (like if he's fed a raw diet).
Dogs are capable of an incredible range of control over their mouths, so just because a dog has bitten another and done damage, doesn't mean he's a threat to ALL dogs, or people. There are just so many factors that go in to the severity of a dog bite.
And just like a raw-fed dog won't turn in to a bloodthirsty baby killer, a greyhound who kills the neighbor's pet cat isn't going to go for the neighbor's toddler next.

Are certain breeds more likely to bite? Yes, I think you can say that as long as you remember that all dogs are still individuals. 
But again, tons of factors contribute to the severity of the bite. It's not just a question of "Will this dog bite?" but also a question of what will provoke this dog, how much provocation will it take, what kind of retraint will the dog show if he bites etc., etc., etc. 
One bite does not a monster make.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

..............


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> The owner handed his dog into his local Police station yesterday morning.
> 
> The Police have applied for a destruction order I believe.


Ah, didn't know that. Did he give his version of events?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> BIB 1: Oh really? So you think people would want an aggressive dog that rips into others. Seriously? Mauled a dog, what's to say it won't tear a little kid apart?


Wobbles, educate yourself PLEASE. Dog aggression =/= human aggression. Do you also think that if your dog eats raw he will turn on you and eat you next?



Wobbles said:


> There is no place for dangerous dogs who savage people and other animals.


Again DA =/= HA. As for dogs who savage other animals, shall we shoot every hunting dog out there now? Every sighthound, every ratter?



Wobbles said:


> Dogs shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. Dogs should not bite people, exept in self defence. Any dog that badly bites someone should be put down. You can't trust them again. My aunt's got a fluffy soft soppy dog. She says if it ever attacks one of her kids, it'll be gone straight away. *Another aunt has a sheep farm, one of her dogs turned and attacked the sheep. It was shot immediately - because she couldn't trust it not do it again.* Once the trust has gone, nothing will ever put it back.
> 
> Good. People should not be afraid of walking about outside because of a dog.


Your post literally made me sick to my stomach  I have a dog who was shot - twice. He was preying on goats (before he came to us). Despite the treatement he has received at the hands of humans, he is the sweetest, gentlest, most loving, forgiving dog you could imagine. He is a therapy dog who loves everyone he meets. 
This is the dog someone tried to kill with a gal he had just met:









Your attitude is seriously sickening and I can't believe posts like yours are allowed on a dog LOVERS forum


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

sharloid said:


> Ah, didn't know that. Did he give his version of events?


The news reports have just said he's handed the dog in. I think they are trying to evidence if its something that comes under the dangerous dog act or not...there will be repercussions for him though I should think


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Anyone who says they can read a dog is lying. All those canine psychologists are lying. _No one_ can truly read a dogs mind. It's an animal, that comes from a wild animal and you can never really get in its head to know what it's thinking or going to do.
> 
> As for any breed being dangerous, yes maybe, but there are some that are that bit worse. Time and time again the reports show this.


I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous.. No one says they can read a dogs (or any animal) mind, BUT they can read the body language and interpret what that means. I know my animals body language like the back of my hand, and 99.9% of the time I can work out what they are "saying", I can assure you my dear that I am not lying 

Just because you can't read body language, doesn't mean that no one can read body language.. If you remember right I managed to get a lot of your personality traits right just from your posting style 

As for the last paragraph, I suggest you stop reading the tabloids


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> BIB 1: Oh really? So you think people would want an aggressive dog that rips into others. Seriously? Mauled a dog, what's to say it won't tear a little kid apart?


Yes, actually. I did exactly this  and I love him! He is great with all humans old or young, small or big. It is rare that a dog will be DA and HA and of they are there is usually something else causing the aggression (injury?)

Oh, and I did the exact same thing with a HA dog  I must be mental?



> My dog is not ok, I never said she wouldn't turn. I'm not stupid, I know full well she could turn, and whilst I love her more than life itself, if she badly injured someone, I'd have her put down immediately. Because I would never ever trust her again or feel safe around her. There is no place for dangerous dogs who savage people and other animals. There's enough nice friendly dogs need homes, so why should a savage beast take one of their places? A dog badly biting someone is the ultimate no go area for one, once its gone there, that's it, a one way trip to the vets beckons.
> 
> Anyone who says they can read a dog is lying. All those canine psychologists are lying. _No one_ can truly read a dogs mind. It's an animal, that comes from a wild animal and you can never really get in its head to know what it's thinking or going to do.
> 
> As for any breed being dangerous, yes maybe, but there are some that are that bit worse. Time and time again the reports show this.


Reading a dog and getting into its head are two very different t things. I can read Rossi very well and know when things are getting out of hand and I need to step or step away. I would never say i know what he is thinking ect. But I can definitely read him to an extent.

Scooby is more complex and I haven't worked on him as hard as Rossi as he wasn't lunging at me on a daily basis but I still have a good understanding of his moods and when something is to much for him.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

So the dog has been handed in its a shame the dog will most probably face a sad end,imo all cause the owner didnt have i under control..very sad.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> So the dog has been handed in its a shame the dog will most probably face a sad end,imo all cause the owner didnt have i under control..very say.


It will definitely be pts. The rspca have made a destruction order and the police are pushing it because of how public the story has been.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> It will definitely be pts. The rspca have made a destruction order and the police are pushing it because of how public the story has been.


rspca say no more


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Dogs shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. Dogs should not bite people, exept in self defence. Any dog that badly bites someone should be put down. You can't trust them again. My aunt's got a fluffy soft soppy dog. She says if it ever attacks one of her kids, it'll be gone straight away. Another aunt has a sheep farm, one of her dogs turned and attacked the sheep. It was shot immediately - because she couldn't trust it not do it again. Once the trust has gone, nothing will ever put it back


All this is based on your level of trust. It has nothing to do with the dogs. Just because it bit once doesn't mean it will do it again, especially if you provide the correct training and care that the dog clearly needs.

Trust it built, earned and received between a dog / handler pair. I personally wouldn't give up on a dog if I could help it but that's just me i guess..?


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Pixieandbow said:


> ...there will be repercussions for him though I should think


I thought the police refused to act on dog on dog aggression? :/


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

.............


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

sharloid said:


> I thought the police refused to act on dog on dog aggression? :/


It's been very very public though. The news report tonight repeated how vicious the attack was, how public the campaign has been and finished with spot running around with his buster collar looking cute. I guess they have to be seen to be doing something


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> No, there is a difference between hunting dogs, and ones who tear into pet owners dogs whilst their out walking!
> 
> Its not unusual, I live in sheep country. I was upset because she was my favourite dog, but I could also see why it was done. Any dog caught attacking sheep here would be shot on the spot. Any farmer with a rogue dog, would take it in the barn and shoot it. It's horrible, but its their livelihood, they can't take chances that it won't happen again.
> 
> ...


couldnt she have just, you know, kept the dog away from the sheep. Like most of us, walk the dog on a lead, don't let it roam. Surely preferable to shooting it.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Yes Bernie, but a human can understand another human. A dog can understand another dog. But no matter how much we want to, we can not and will not ever speak an animal's language. Yes you can read body language, but you can't get in its mind.


I never said I can get into their minds, I never said I could speak their language... But I can read body language and determine from that what is going on, until you truly understand body language and study animal behaviour you will never understand... People that can read body language are not lying, they are just doing what you can't.

It's good to know that you think that the Animal Psychology Degree is a lie tho


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> I never said I can get into their minds, I never said I could speak their language... But I can read body language and determine from that what is going on, until you truly understand body language and study animal behaviour you will never understand... People that can read body language are not lying, they are just doing what you can't.
> 
> It's good to know that you think that the Animal Psychology Degree is a lie tho


Exactly.

The ability to read a dogs body language is vital when it comes to over coming aggression.

You have to understand when the dog is getting uncomfortable or getting ramped up and you must keep the situation below the dogs threshold but not so low that you are not making any real change.

I'm no expert, which is why it took roughly three months to get a hold of Rossi's HA and I could feel safe walking about my flat without him locked away. I could over come it because I learnt his signal, I learnt when I could approach him and when I should definitely back away, I learnt when he was approaching me with good intentions or bad intentions. My ability to read him not only made me feel a lot more comfortable but it clearly made him a lot more comfortable that someone was finally listening to him and we continued to progress from there. I'd trust him a baby, that's how much he has changed.

No, he never said a word to me, he didn't look into my eyes and suddenly I understood him. It takes time to get to know a dog and learn there moods and gestures. I soon learnt that a lot of what I learnt through dealing with a HA dog I could apply to a DA dog!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

RockRomantic said:


> couldnt she have just, you know, kept the dog away from the sheep. Like most of us, walk the dog on a lead, don't let it roam. Surely preferable to shooting it.


Or trained the dog? You know, like we manage to train dogs not to chase prey and respond to a recall? Amazing concept this training business...

And yes, I know all too well that the "shoot the dog" mentality is not that unusual. It's also archaic, cruel, and unnecessary.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Or trained the dog? You know, like we manage to train dogs not to chase prey and respond to a recall? Amazing concept this training business...
> 
> And yes, I know all too well that the "shoot the dog" mentality is not that unusual. It's also archaic, cruel, and unnecessary.


Okay i should have mentioned the first bit to, smartass  

totally agree!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2013)

RockRomantic said:


> Okay i should have mentioned the first bit to, smartass
> 
> totally agree!


I wasn't trying to be a smartass to you  Mostly to those who would shoot a dog instead of training and managing the dog, and wobbles who seems to think this is okay.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I wasn't trying to be a smartass to you  Mostly to those who would shoot a dog instead of training and managing the dog, and wobbles who seems to think this is okay.


i was only kidding  it's baffles me to be honest, i get it's livestock and how they make money, but to shoot a dog it's just ridiculous, theres so many options, don't let it roam around loose, have it on a leash, training, rehoming, to just shoot the dog instantly after its been done is just so sad. So not one life is lost (or however many) but an extra one. A life for a life.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

..............


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> I never said I can get into their minds, I never said I could speak their language... But I can read body language and determine from that what is going on, until you truly understand body language and study animal behaviour you will never understand... People that can read body language are not lying, they are just doing what you can't.
> 
> It's good to know that you think that the Animal Psychology Degree is a lie tho


I can read a dogs mind. When I'm holding a pigs ear.. Dief is thinking "give me that [email protected]!ng pigs ear". Simples. Drink helps too.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

As I said throughout this thread, there are always two sides of the story...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/steff-novell/enzo-two-sides-to-every-story/10152647522635632


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Oh look...

Funny that huh!?


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

TBH, the whole thing has been so exaggerated and sensationalized that I'm having trouble fully believing this version too. Though I did have a suspicion that there were more pictures - hence why I kept mentioning the lapse between the clean pants and muddied pants. I'd say the truth is somewhere between the two versions. Definite ignorance on both sides, and the dogs are the ones paying the price for their owner's ignorance. 

Just sad....


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> TBH, the whole thing has been so exaggerated and sensationalized that I'm having trouble fully believing this version too. Though I did have a suspicion that there were more pictures - hence why I kept mentioning the lapse between the clean pants and muddied pants. I'd say the truth is somewhere between the two versions. Definite ignorance on both sides, and the dogs are the ones paying the price for their owner's ignorance.
> 
> Just sad....


Definitely agree, it's sad how things panned out really


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

Does anyone know if this has been shared with the cav's owner? I'd be interested in what her response is...


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

I wonder, if spots owner hadn't been the middle class owner of a spaniel if the press would have paid as much attention. If she had been Enzo's owner, would there have been such a witch hunt...


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Does anyone know if this has been shared with the cav's owner? I'd be interested in what her response is...


Doesn't look like it has yet no, the cav looks well in recent pics which is good.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> As I said throughout this thread, there are always two sides of the story...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/steff-novell/enzo-two-sides-to-every-story/10152647522635632


b3rnie whats it say, i dont have fb.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

B3rnie said:


> As I said throughout this thread, there are always two sides of the story...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/steff-novell/enzo-two-sides-to-every-story/10152647522635632


Bernie, what do you think about starting a whole new thread with this link? I think people need to consider it, and I have a feeling that many (maybe even those who need to see this most) have stopped reading this thread as it has gotten too long and a bit off topic.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Pixieandbow said:


> I wonder, if spots owner hadn't been the middle class owner of a spaniel if the press would have paid as much attention. If she had been Enzo's owner, would there have been such a witch hunt...


Are you referring to the quest to get the attacking dog and his owner identified a witch hunt?

That is very offensive.

CC


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> Are you referring to the quest to get the attacking dog and his owner identified a witch hunt?
> 
> That is very offensive.
> 
> CC


After everything that has been said I think by now 'offensive' has gone out the window...


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Bernie, what do you think about starting a whole new thread with this link? I think people need to consider it, and I have a feeling that many (maybe even those who need to see this most) have stopped reading this thread as it has gotten too long and a bit off topic.


Done 

we love bsh's in the new thread I quoted what was said for people without fb


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