# children should always have supervising adults present with dogs....sad reminder news



## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

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my view is the breeds are irrelevant, family pets that have never attacked or bitten are irrelevant, a pack of dogs or any dog can turn aggressive, maybe the dogs got into a dogfight and in their rage as dogs often do turned on anyone trying to separate them...whatever the reason...the young child was alone with several powerful jawed dogs...unable to defend herself and now dead.

A teenager has been found dead in a house in Manchester by police who were confronted by a number of "aggressive and out of control" dogs.

The body of the girl, thought to be 14 years old and named locally as Jade Lomas-Anderson, was found at the property in the Atherton area of the city.

Armed police killed four dogs, while a fifth was securely contained.

A spokesman for Greater Manchester Police said two of the dogs are thought to have been bull mastiffs and two may be Staffordshire bull terriers.

Superintendent Mark Kenny said: "First and foremost, our thoughts are with the family of the girl who has tragically lost her life.

"I understand this is an extremely distressing incident for all concerned, including the community, and we will work hard to establish the full circumstances that led to this tragedy.

"There will be a significant police presence in the area, which will remain this afternoon and evening. We will be there to carry out an investigation and address any concerns residents may have.

"It would be too early for us to speculate about what has happened, and further information will be released when it becomes available."


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## Gruggly (Mar 26, 2013)

I think they should make it law for dog owners to be liscenced.
What did the owner want 5 powerful bull breed dogs for?


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Gruggly said:


> I think they should make it law for dog owners to be liscenced.
> What did the owner want 5 powerful bull breed dogs for?


Licensing relies on people being honest about the dogs they have. Chances are the irresponsible ones wouldn't be licensed and would probably never be caught either


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Gruggly said:


> I think they should make it law for dog owners to be liscenced.
> What did the owner want 5 powerful *bull breed* dogs for?


ALL dogs can bite you know, best not to leap to conclusions


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

Gruggly said:


> I think they should make it law for dog owners to be liscenced.
> What did the owner want 5 powerful bull breed dogs for?


Absolutely nothing wrong with owning 5 bull breeds if someone wants. It's how any dog is kept and trained that is the issue. Until all the facts come out all you can do is speculate.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Gruggly said:


> I think they should make it law for dog owners to be liscenced.
> What did the owner want 5 powerful bull breed dogs for?


is that all dog owners that you want to see licenced?
We had that in the sixties and the seventies and it was a joke!
What we need is stiffer penelties for muppet owners!
The so called 'hard' man with his status dog!
Its such a shame that the poor staffie is yet again to be dragged through the coals!

A reminder! there are no bad dogs - just bad owners
Stay calm


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

DT said:


> is that all dog owners that you want to see licenced?
> We had that in the sixties and the seventies and it was a joke!
> What we need is stiffer penelties for muppet owners!
> The so called 'hard' man with his status dog!
> ...


Can I add "and bad breeders" to that bit in bold?

I'm sure certain breeders are selecting for aggression in their "status" dogs, along with all those muppet breeders who just see ££ signs. These poor pups end up with muppet owners and its a recipe for disaster.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Gruggly said:


> I think they should make it law for dog owners to be liscenced.
> What did the owner want 5 powerful bull breed dogs for?


They are not the typical staffy owner imo!
They would no doubt be in breach of their tenency agreement!
The book should be chucked at them!
But please dont persecute the poor staffy!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

all comments made in reaction to this horrible tragic event have a valid foundation if not the whole truth....it is true that image of aggressive powerful jawed dogs as pets appeals often to the wrong kind of macho type owner...and it is true breeders due to there being a market no matter how small fo this breed for these traits....it is not fair to blame a general breed of dog for what lack of control the owners or breeders have bred them for have done to them....it is true that licensing is some control over dog owners and it is unfortunately true bad owners will avoid registering their dogs...

and i of course come back to my point saying DOGS OF ANY BREED need to be SUPERVISED BY ADULTS PRESENT when young kids are around. i mentioned it could have been ANY DOG or ANY BREED maybe that turned on a person to defend food or get it as now seems to be the news on this case coming out....dogs in a pack often behave more aggressively than when alone also i believe...

if this turns out to be indeed as some suggest and based on experiences of such accidents in the past...be a case of nutter humans liking macho dogs as pets...this unfortunately reinforces generalisations about the dog breed again...unfortunately i say for the dogs ! i have met UNREGISTERED PITBULLS that were DELIGHTFUL dogs calm non agressive ! unregistered i say because officially on the DANGEROUS DOGS LIST owners need to CASTRATE them not breed them under fr laws...so ? only those NOT breeding them or not having outta control dogs register them ! Not all unregistered pitbulls are agressive is my point made, but i would be foolish to GENERALISE and say that ALL PITBULLS not registered are like the ones i have met ! it is in fact more true to say the majority of unregistered dangerous classified dogs are of owners with reasons to not want to register their dogs due to being trained to bite etc outta control

my dogs have played with amstaffs, many of the so called dangerous breeds with no problems. i held my breath i admit sometimes, knowing if those dogs bit my dogs they would do serious damage due to their massive jaw powers...But i trusted the dogs and their chatted with owners more than my fear of that....and the dogs not trained to be biting or attacking were fine with my pups and now adult dogs i was delighted to see them playing well together bite playing lightly as dogs do in play not seizing hard.

it is a tragedy for the girl dead most of all. and letting any dog alone with young kids is not advisable. attacking for food is now being reported as the reason the dogs leapt on the stranger to the house child. we will never really know because we cant interview the dogs ! know what was in their minds...maybe they were hungry ? or disliked a stranger in the house without owners present ? those like all explanations are just guess work no one ever knows what is on the mind of any dog really with any certainty as they dont talk in our language.

maybe the owners are a stereotype rough type human liking macho dogs...that will do the breeds again no good publicity of course...but there are enough of that type of owner for people to make such generalisations as owning a dog is not like owning a gun you dont need a license and no one will report you if they see you with a dog to have it checked out by anyone.

maybe the owners are not rough types but just had a pack of dogs ! outta control ! 

i do think it should be a necessity to register a dog, pass a social test even in order to have one, and it be a checked up thing at random even. they are not invisible items ! paying for the cost of public streets clean up of dogpooh would be funded by that even ! would it prevent such a case happening again ? not if owners keep their dogs a secret unregistered unsocial tested no of course not. 

it can only reduce the general risk not eliminate the risk totally.

and i repeat, even social caracter tested registered dogs or any individual dog can turn on someone suddenly, it is foolish to think even a trained dog is totally predictable especially if ALONE WITH A CHILD like this ! so supervision of dogs by responsible adults is to be stressed to all dog owners...if these owners are not rough macho types then they will be mortified of course at what has happened, maybe being told more strongly that NO DOG SHOULD BE WITH A YOUNG CHILD ALONE was needed. DOGS ARE NOT TOTALLY PREDICTABLE ! ever ! trained or not trained ! anyone who thinks their mutt is the nicest dog on the planet incapable of doing something unpredictable is wrong ! it is an animal with thoughts and motives of its own that can with teeth be dangerous !

the child was a STRANGER to the dogs...the OWNER was not present...so dogs more likely to do things that cannot be controlled is obvious. in the presence of owners, dogs can be ordered and controlled better, this child had no chance against even 1 dog of even 20 kilos size ! never mind that they were breeds with massive jaw powers.


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Sad story... but it has nothing to do with breed. Mastiff breeds do need alot more training IMO or they can get out of control alot more easily than other breeds, especially with more than one. But any dog could have been responsible for a situation like this. Its unfortunate that the dogs did not have the training they required or lifestyle possibly.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

not trying to pick an arguement and I agree that this whole incident is a tragedy - but 14 years old is not what I would call a young child - I know a lot of 14 yr olds who are bigger than some adults, perfectly mature around dogs and sensible.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

She was 14 so hardly a young child. At what point are children ok with dogs? What if she was 16? Her stature might not be much different, she might not be any stronger or any more able to fight off four dogs. She could get married, leave home but to allowed to be alone with dogs? If four strong dogs were intent on over powering me I'm not sure I'd be able to sufficiently fend the off any better...how many of us would be?


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

Pixieandbow said:


> She was 14 so hardly a young child. At what point are children ok with dogs? What if she was 16? Her stature might not be much different, she might not be any stronger or any more able to fight off four dogs. She could get married, leave home but to allowed to be alone with dogs? If four strong dogs were intent on over powering me I'm not sure I'd be able to sufficiently fend the off any better...how many of us would be?


Very good insight really, I know that I would struggle with 4 dogs trying to attack me, it would only take one of them to get a good bite and that's it.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

err i fail to see any suggestions as to what could be good precautions to take in this case specifically ????

so we know teenagers that are fine with dogs

so we know big jaw force dogs that are fine with kids

so we know BABIES under one year old even safe with dogs !

we can all give examples like that hey ! that are true ! many dogs even with babies alone never bite them !

so the point in replies made here is the age of the teenager it seems...and 14 is considered old enough to have knowledge of how to deal with dogs not her own in a large number without adult owners present to give orders to their own dogs ? so it was OK for this teenager to be faced with a pack of dogs alone who have jaw strengths to kill her fast ....it was ok for the owners of the dogs not to be there because this was a teenager who at that age should know how to deal with such dogs.

that seems to be the jist of the replies here...

as well as saying even an adult faced with several dogs could not fight them off !

well the point is that for sure even ONE dog of medium size could do even an ADULT serioous injury if it wanted to ! but the OWNERS of the dogs are those best able to control them whether for an adult or baby or teenager !

I personally dont think TEENAGERS with other peoples dogs are as reliable no as a real adult....let us call adult what the law calls an adult for voting just for taking a number then which is 18

now the fact many kids have dogs of their own younger than age 18 can be said to be an argument to say it is ok to be alone without adult supervision with dogs...but...these were NOT HER DOGS ! even if known as a visitor to them they were NOT her dogs ! so more dangerous to her or anyone as a risk

and how many TEENAGERS own such high jaw force dogs ? give it a guess ??? what kind of parents buy such dogs for TEENAGERS ???? i suggest NOT MANY ! ok tell me you know a few ! even a dozen !!! and generalise on that hey !

these dogs were high jaw power dogs that attacked even the police arriving at the door raving mad....

if people want to leave their babies alone with any dogs that is their choice and teenagers other adults etc etc but someone elses dogs with other peoples children is putting other peoples children and yes a teenager is a child under the law and mentally ....

*this TEENAGER would NOT have died HAD THE DOG OWNERS BEEN AROUND in all likelihood !!! unless you think that is a wrong assumtion also ???*


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Getting away from the children issue, which is absolutely right, I wouldn't even leave my mild tempered mini Dachshund alone with my grandsons ! 
Does anyone remember the news story a couple of years ago about a woman having her nose bitten off by her greyhound as she slept ?I imagine she was snoring and the dog felt threatened. No-one would ever consider a greyhound a dangerous breed , and I'm sure it was totally out of character.


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> err i fail to see any suggestions as to what could be good precautions to take in this case specifically ????
> 
> so we know teenagers that are fine with dogs
> 
> ...


No one has said that the 14 year old knows how to deal with them? Where did you pull that from? All that was said is where do you call the line on when you leave people alone with dogs. 14? 15? 18? 30? 4 dogs could do equally as much damage to an adult any age in the same situation.

There is no way to control this, if you bring in licensing people will only break it, if you make it a law, there will be dogs traded on the black market for money. Unfortunately, you will not be able to control irresponsible owners.

In regards to your question about under 18's owning strong jawed dogs, the answer is 1000's & 1000's. But you are missing the point of it all, ANY dog can do the damage and 4 of any reasonable sized dogs can kill anyone which is what people are saying. Even a group of small dogs can kill someone it doesn't really matter on the power of the jaw.

You have completely missed the point of everyone's replies and stereotyping dogs like mastiffs and staffs for having strong jaws... Most dogs have the ability to do equally as much damage if given the chance.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

According to the papers the owner and her daughter were present at the time of the incident.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> err i fail to see any suggestions as to what could be good precautions to take in this case specifically ????
> 
> so we know teenagers that are fine with dogs
> 
> ...


Excuse me???

You know that for sure do you???

So the dog that killed a child a few years ago while ALL the family were around including its owner...what of that???

Personally I suspect one dog attacked and some sort of pack type instinct kicked in...in which case it wouldn't have matter if the person was 14, 40 or 400. The outcome would probably have been the same

Incidentally, the worst injury I received from a dog bite as a jack Russell...are they a strong jawed dog too?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

jack russel didnt kill you did it as you are on the forum lol !!!

seems there is a great politically correct need for dogggie people to defend generalisations people make about some breeds with the strongest jaw powers not being the most risky if they bite...sigh...now i dont see what is wrong with saying that the stronger jaw grip a dog or any animal has the greater damage it will cause...

and in the RARE yes cases of DEATHS caused and VERY SERIOUS INJURIES yes it is the strong jaw grip dogs that do the greatest RARE FATAL injuries the most !

having a pack of them made it many times more possible.

whether the dogs were untrained or possibly even trained to attack by father owner of the dogs as who knows who was the person the dogs listened to or took orders from...it is obvious they were outta control dogs...with massive jaw powers...and to make that obvious to anyone statement is not <<having a go>> at specifics breeds to say the entire dogs of that breed are dangerous but that more precautions are needed with strangers and young people when around dogs that do not belong to them are around.

if many people do not think dogs need to be treated with caution and not totally dependable around young people or strangers then that is a risk they are taking at others expense in my view. and if your dog has such powerful jaws for all the damage of course a bite from a jack russel could do it is NOT as bad as a much stronger jawed animal. cant be ! just logic !

now 500 000 official bites of dogs per year in say France and triple that for the unofficial ones is proof yes many dogs can do bites...KILLING someone however is not that often ! and why pretend that it is not the strong jawed dogs that do kill when they end up in such yes rare but fatal cases !?

meaning more care needs to be taken around them. muppet owners muppet breeders seem to be attracted to vicious dogs...and occasionally here is the result of it !

this even if rare case is justifiably going to make the general public even more fearful of dogs and want stronger controls...Whether some think that will not reach the muppet avoider types so not prevent such rare occurrences happening again is irrelevant...these people were not breaking any laws for not having dog licenses dogs trained properly or having their dogs classified as unsuitable for their ownership...strong prison sentences for owners of such dogs has been suggested elsewhere here...not here yet as the focus here is more on discussing the defense of the breed of dog than things like that ! but i agree that if there are not stronger laws and punishments for muppet owners or just people owning dogs that bite then people will not take precautions...it has to hit finances to have some effect...money talks....then those thinking other peoples teenagers are safe around their dogs might think again about their policies of how they manage their dogs a bit better !

the public will not stand for this...it is bad news not just for the dead girl most of all but ALL the dogworld forget the whines of breed specific sensitivies leaping to defend a particular breed ! ALL dogs are going to be perceived less favourably after such events ! and their owners ! and the public may have a view especially the NON DOG OWNERS that ALL DOG OWNERS are MUPPETS ! and their view may be valid ! as valid as those of us that call some dog owners muppets !

if dog owners witter on too much about how their breed is really nice when such things happen like a DEATH i suggest the non dog owning public are quite entitled to think all dog owners are muppets caring more about dogs than people and taking risks with other people thinking their beloved dogs are not at all capable of doing harm ! the prob with dog owners is like being a parent your own kid or dog can do no wrong !

oooh he was misunderstood ! the parent of little jonney who nicked from the shops said ! lol ! he is a good boy really ! lol !

Could not be avoided...accidents happen...well i and others suggestions here was just trying from what facts i had read to try and see SOME precautions possible that might have avoided this and future accidents whether not totally effective for all cases but deterents ...but i am sure the powers that be will take some measures now anyway...it would be nice if the doggie world could suggest some themselves rather than say DO NOTHING sigh...

certain breeds seem to attract muppets...and some of the public would say DOGS attract muppets if they read some comments of us doggie people !

ps i add what i put on another thread on this subject here too...As it is a suggestion for possible changes in mentalities...

one of i agree the MUPPET OWNER OF MACHO PERCEIVED DOGS problems is..i suggest...that they see professionals doing dog attack human activites like police dogs, see amateurs doing attack human sports with diplomas in IPO say who are proud to have dogs trained to attack even though it is against the law for dogs other than police dogs to leap and hang onto people...and so ? image perception and DESIRE of BEING IN THAT LEAGUE is a human frailty and vanity that leads yes TOTALLY unsuitable muppet humans to have high bite possibility dogs that they train in private clubs of just by themselves from books they read on the topic or whatever and hey presto we have dogs that have learnt not to just nip and give bites without letting go but to hang on in there and kill if possible ! and if something snaps in a reduced bite control dog like that and daddy or the control learnt fails then someone gets killed. in this case possibly a young teenager. so macho images and ecouraging dogs to be attack dogs is to be discouraged as too many muppets do it.

ps and yes i do think it more tragic that such a young person a teenager child under the law was killed more than if it had been an adult. do i think it more likely such a young person would be killed like this than an older person ? yes. for sure an adult has not much chance against a dog attack, but even less so a teenager. and mentally experience of lifewise she had less than an older person. and because it was not her dog yes i criticised the lack of control of the dog owners with a young person not their child around as i believe they are more at risk from dog attacks or bites. and in this case death.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

It is absolutely shocking - disgraceful that yet another young person has lost her life because of irresponsible owners.

It requires more than just and adult supervising a youngster. The dogs need to be trained and properly socialised. I don't care what breed, I wouldn't own an aggressive dog period.

I think its about time there was a dog owners register lets face it we are almost there with the mirco-chipping. Owners such as these should be banned from owning dogs period and the register should reflect this.

Okay they can still acquire a dog from the local neighbourhood's litter but if found to be owning a dog they should be sentenced to prison, personally I would prefer them to hang.

I am sick and tired of this type of crime and it is a criminal act. Don't tell me they didn't know the dog(s) were aggressive. I'd like to see their puppy socialising certificates and obediance training certificate because these beautiful dogs have now paid with their lives while the owners will walk away scott free, they won't even get a fine because I bet a penny to a piece of sh*t they are on benefits. All because they couldn't be bothered to train the dogs properly they prefer to portray the "macho image" - absolute scum of the earth.

What about the young girl and her family, my heart goes out to them. How do you get over the loss of a child and under such appalling circumstances.

Apologies this has really upset me, I'm off on a doggy walk to calm down.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I think it is fair to say that the larger the dog, the more damage it can inflict. A lab could do more damage than a chihuahua, a newfie (one of the gentlest breeds around) could do considerably more damage than a lab. Simply picking out certain breeds as being more dangerous doesn't work, unless we restrict all large dogs.

I also completely agree that some breeds do tend to attract farmore numpty owners. 
You only have to look at some of the other recent dog related deaths to see the common denominators. 

A pit bull, bred and owned illegally, known and encouraged to be aggressive by its criminal, druggie owner, poorly treated, pumped full of steroids, and physically abused kills a child known to have previously tormented it, whilst in the care of a drunk, drugged up adult who should have known better.

A pair of rottweilers kept as "guard" dogs, no socialisation, poorly cared for, encouraged to be aggressive, unknown backgrounds, and a baby left alone.

Of course there is likely to be far more to this particular tragedy than we will ever know. Like ssmick I would be curious to know what sort of owner and breeder these dogs had, if they were socialised, trained, exercised, etc. Perhaps they too had been drugged, abused, and neglected like the pit bull was? We don't know. 

Its too easy to blame the breed. The other death that springs to mind is the older gentleman who died whilst walking his rottweiler. The papers had a field day with the story of how this dog "turned" on his owned and mauled him to death. Very few later published the truth - that the man had actually died of a heart attack and his dog had become distressed, pawing at him and then biting him, presumably trying to rouse him.

This story is a tragedy whatever the whole truth may be. It is inexcusable that a young girl lost her life. I actually have no problem with the dogs being killed - this was a fatal attack after all (as far as we know). But unless all these dogs suffered from an undiagnosed medical problem like a brain tumour; somewhere along the line a human being is somehow responsible. Maybe the owners, maybe their breeders, maybe both. And because of human cock ups an innocent child is dead.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> jack russel didnt kill you did it as you are on the forum lol !!!
> 
> seems there is a great politically correct need for dogggie people to defend generalisations people make about some breeds with the strongest jaw powers not being the most risky if they bite...sigh...now i dont see what is wrong with saying that the stronger jaw grip a dog or any animal has the greater damage it will cause...
> 
> ...


You seem to think my reference to jack Russell's is a little silly...but since one killed a baby in England recently I don't think it is. I just don't think that only supposedly strong jawed dogs do damage


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Its a tragic story, and the full story may never be known about what fully happened. 

I would not allow any stranger in my house to be left alone with my dogs, the dogs dont fully know them and the child or person does not know the dogs. Regardless of age, stupidity can occur at any age. Even if the child had been around the house before, she may have not been a regular visiter and therefore she is reguarded as a visiter or stranger to the house. 

We dont know the history of the family or the dogs, the owners could of had no idea about dog behaviour and problems could have been going on for a long time beforehand without the owners paying attention. 

The breed of dog has nothing to do with it, yes the mastiff breed has alot more powerful jaws than other breeds but smaller breeds could potentially cause fatal injuries too. To have more than one of these breeds in the same house requries alot of training IMO as they are not the easiest breed when in a group. 

The full story may never be known, and its very easy to judge from reading the newspaper or listening to the news, usually certain things are made up or exagerated. 

Its a tragic story which could have potentially be avoided but hopefully more dog owners will learn from this and understand the need to understand dog behaviour and management more and the dangers.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

update just read in another thread with link...

the girl WAS ALONE ...the dogs attacked as she ate a meat pie. the dogs were known to be aggressive by neighbours. an accident waiting to happen....too many dogs in such accomodation...may her tragic avoidable death help lead to prevention of others being injured and dying like her in the future....

yes a few threads on this out of shock appeared here...and reading your link with more details than the link on yahoo i found initially it seems a tragedy that could have been avoided ...*her brother quote...

<<Kimberley's brother Anthony last night posted a message on Facebook saying it had been 'madness' to leave Jade alone with 'aggressive' dogs*

Read more: Jade Anderson death: Atherton girl, 14, was eating MEAT PIE when 4 snarling dogs mauled her to death | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook>>

may the steps to be taken by powers that be be as fast as possible with chipping dogs maybe as i read having limits on the numbers of dogs owned...just looking at pictures of the accomodation so many dogs with such little space ...

and the girl eating pie set the dogs off...just food...and dogs known to be aggressive by neighbours....

people owning dogs in this way can be monitored....the legality of the breeds is being looked into i read also....

'Last month the Government announced that the law is being changed to cover attacks on private property.

this is hopeful news for the future. there are other situations just like this one out there and accidents waiting to happen without trying something to address this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...IE-4-snarling-dogs-mauled-death.html#comments

sigh.

reading the comments posted by the general public on that article is sobering ....people are very angry...and rightly so. and many make the point that dogs are not reliable they are animals some compare them to guns...let us not focus on any individual BREED image here...the ENTIRE DOG POPULATION is badly perceived and rightly so. the motives of people owning such bad behaviour dogs are the triggers.

i hope that this tragic death in such to any reasonable person avoidable circumstances leads to controls and measures that reduce the risk for the future for others like this young girl with all her life in front of her cut short. For every death or extreme case like this are many more near misses and general terrorisations. Owners should be made aware and legally responsible for the risks their dogs represent to strangers and young people in particular.


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> reading the comments posted by the general public on that article is sobering ....people are very angry...and rightly so. and many make the point that dogs are not reliable they are animals some compare them to guns...let us not focus on any individual BREED image here...the ENTIRE DOG POPULATION is badly perceived and rightly so. the motives of people owning such bad behaviour dogs are the triggers.


That's what people here have been saying all along it is not just about strong jawed dogs. Any dog can cause the damage within reason...

I don't think the entire dog population is badly perceived at all. Certain dogs are, yes, but not all of the population.

Certain dogs are just in the spotlight at the moment, in previous years it has been Doberman's & German Sheppard's. Now at the moment the focus is on Pitbulls, Staffs and Mastifs. In a few more years it will be another breed.

There will doubtingly be a way in the future to control this kind of thing. Dogs will be bred for the wrong purpose like fighting etc. As soon as a law will be introduced to control such a thing, it means that people will do it more to profit from it by selling & breeding illegally.

I know at the moment nothing drastic will happen because of the state of the economy, the governments cant even afford to run the country as it is let alone spending millions trying to control the dog population and breeding


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

people here have said that jaw strength makes a difference to the amount of damage done to anything which is a logical statement to make.

a jack russel killed a baby, not a grown adult or teenager. 

a baby is very small and defenseless. 

a larger dog with more powerful jaws is going to kill damage more seriously a teenager than a jack russel. certainly several of those dogs together.

fact. 

supevision therefore of such large powerful numerous together dogs by responsible adults when non owners especially young people are around them is more important therefore logically.

any contradictions opposing those general logical supported by others here also comments made ?
..............

if one took the rare yes nowadays cases of deaths caused by dog attacks the MAJORITY of those cases are yes caused by the breeds with powerful jaws. a MINORITY by dogs with less powerful jaws or not in packs of dogs.

................

what the trying to be HELPFUL thread here is trying to do is suggest ways of preventing more of such risks, not saying ALL risk will ever be removed totally.

...............

Supervision by adults of powerful jawed dogs especially when numerous is to me and others REASONABLE as such a positive suggestion. 

Now to disagree with this GENERAL statment suggestion saying oh well some teenagers people know are fine around dogs, know how to deal with them, own such dogs...is i suggest NOT being helpful to this case...those SAME known good with dogs kids would NOT have been able to deal with these dogs in this instance i dare suggest ! only their OWN unagressive dogs !

...............

Saying it is the OWNERS not the DOGS that are to blame is not helpful unless suggesting that LAWS be brought in to punish the owners that are harsher than current ones, and the fact the government hasnt money in the view of some peole to deal with this idea on their minds officially is suggesting it is not going to help or try to reduce the risks out there...we should ENCOURAGE any laws that might reduce unecessary deaths like this and not say well teenagers can deal with dogs when in this case NO TEENAGER NO GENERAL TEENAGER could reasonably have done so !
...............

all i started by saying was DO NOT LEAVE DOGS ALONE WITH KIDS ! and suggest that be advice to ALL dog owners ! but ESPECIALLY yes owners of powerful jawed dogs !

that statement was immediately seized on by someone who said THE DOGS WERE NOT ALONE with the kid that got killed ! well SURPRISE SURPRISE ? they were ! i made the comment that had the owners the dogs recognise first and foremost as their controllers been there this girl would be still alive ! and the SON of the owners has admitted they were not there now ! and the POLICE certainly did not find the owners there when they had to SHOOT the dogs to even get to the dead kid !

if we cant even agree that as a general rule kids with dogs especially other peoples kids should not be unsupervised alone with dogs especially powerful dog trying to find cases exceptions know that no such accidents happened in and saying at that age some kids have married etc had lives when OBVIOUSLY this girl did NOT have the chance to get married etc as she is DEAD VERY YOUNG never mind the EXACT NUMBER OF YEARS she had lived...well to me and i think most reasonable people that is not being helpful with any suggestions to defend the weaker humans of this world in the future !

why is it so controversial to say A STRONG ANIMAL is more likely to inflict serious damage and kill a less strong animal ??? because it suggests a BREED is in question ? what BREED did i mention using those general words ? NONE ! the i suggest OVERSENSITIVE WILL DEFEND THE BREED types because they own a nice one are NOT being fair or reasonable to the REST of those put like this poor young child girl teenager in a position ANY child or teenager was at great risk from !

the fact SOME of the public rant and blame yes the NAMED ACCURATELY BREEDS involved seems to offend saying that makes the NAMED RESPONSIBLE BREED unpopular with reasonable people !!! lol ! excuse me laughing at this because JACK RUSSELS have been named ! i dont see jack russel owners jumping up hhere in annoyance their breed is named if it kills a baby in this case ! i DARE suggest JACK RUSSEL OWNERS are maybe logically therefore NOT SO INSENSITIVE as to do so ! they ACCEPT naming criticism or even GENERALISATIONS of that breed more easily than other breed owners ! IF JACK RUSSELS WERE THE BREEDS DOING THE MAJORITY OF THE KILLINGS that breed yes would have been on a list of dangerous perceived dogs, based on MAJORITY OF CASES RESULTING IN DEATHS and very serious injuries breeds.

...............

NOw i like many hope as stated for, that generally people supervise dogs around kids more, especially OTHER PEOPLES KIDS no matter how nice their dogs are. 

and that message i encourage to be passed on as standard by all dog sellers to those buying.

I like many hope as stated that tougher laws be brought in to punish irresponsible owners of dogs that do such terrible damage whether on private property or not.

I like many hope that licensing laws additionally make it more difficult for people to have too many dogs in unsuitable premises as is the case here and opinions given by officials and the public.

unfortunately tax payers will be funding again matters that self regulation by humans of their dogs is failing in. the fact that this is costly and the government has limited funds etc is REGRETABLE but NOT to me a good thing to point out as if that means nothing can or will be done to TRY and REDUCE THE RISKS of this happening more frequently again. 

I DARE suggest the BANS that ended up eventually on pitbulls being bred or imported yes REDUCED the number of current deaths nowadays from such breeds as it made it more difficult to have such dogs imported ! and if such ideas as LICENSING and DOG SCHOOLING as compulsory and checks on dog owners had been in place BEFORE maybe the ban would not have come into place ! 

and whatever some valid views held are about pitbulls as a breed being not the issue but the owners, the DRACONIAN yes DETRIMENTAL to pitbull breed laws REDUCED DEATHS ! no one was even suggesting strongly maybe as i am here that AS A GENERAL RULE dogs around kids need supervising strongly especially when in presence of powerful dogs ! which could yes i dare say have helped avoid some of those past deaths 

This suggestion of mine is a LITTLE yes NON LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE suggestion made by me and others to just try and find something positive to suggest to improve and reduce risks for the future !

but i PRAISE the additional suggestions of others here and certainly the public that DO NOTHING is NOT AN OPTION and i will not make excuses saying i know dogs that are nice so we dont need to advise caution with dogs or not bring in more punishment laws for owners with outta control dogs ...

ps just adding ref breeds of the past that were listed as problems...alsations for example...yes that is very correct and they were a problem as breeding for aggression was very much done to provide images and types of guard dogs that people fancied and changing the ATTITUDES of what dogs are for is part of the need for changes, and i have read breeds that had per experts yes far too aggressive types in them were gradually differently bred to get a safer less aggressive dog type. no different to the now perceived need to change the showdog standard of the alsation also due to physical probs. 

some of the public comments made were very very valid...that when naming specific unmentionable by me here breeds, the ORIGINAL PURPOSE of the breeds was reminded saying ATTACK DOG BREEDS are not acceptable in norma society nowadays. there is no criticism by me or most normal people of that point being made...i agree...unles the breed original purpose nature is changed to a more acceptable purpose then the breed has no place in reasonable normal public. and this is what breeders can address and have addresed in the case given of the alsation. the fact there will always be a market for those doing cock fighting êven dog fighting is not a reason to say laws are not needed to make sure the breed nature as a whole is not selected on such qualties if it is to have chance of survival in the longrun in a changed world.

ppss i was on another thread recently here regarding original breed purpose tests being needed maybe for showdogs...now if we took that question and possibility to its logical conclusion we would have pitbulls fighting dogs mastiffs attacking humans as part of their need to be in the showring ! and of course i dont think ANYONE wants that hey ! or do we ? i dare answer for ALL of us here NO !

pppsss...lol excuse me i didnt answer a valid point above saying not ALL dogs suffer from negative perception when such things happen only certain breeds...i say no that is unfortunately not completely even if partially true...i agree in the BLAME SPECIFICS need reasonably the ACTUAL BREED DOING the harm is targeted...but...ALL dogs become the issue...and as the suggestion is to be more careful with ALL dogs alone with kids i think i am trying to be inclusive of ALL dogs in teh suggestion not targeting only but saying yes more care with powerful dogs in large numbers alone with kids...and i am not going to whine about the BAD IMAGE OF DOGS to the NON DOG LOVER OR NON DOG OWNING public no, but i do say they will generalise and say as they do more strongly...DOG OWNERS AS A WHOLE are nutters, not people likers more than dog lovers and dogs in general are a nuissance and be more afraid of them.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> We had that in the sixties and the seventies and *it was a joke!*


I know, I was there, I live in London & find it quite amusing to think of cop cars screaching to halt to ask some elderly Yorki owner to show their dog licence:idea:


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> people here have said that jaw strength makes a difference to the amount of damage done to anything which is a logical statement to make.
> 
> a jack russel killed a baby, not a grown adult or teenager.
> 
> ...


For starters, I didn't mention the jack Russell incident. That was another member. I am only agreeing with what she said because it holds a lot of sense that only particular breeds of dogs are getting all of the criticism.

Secondly, I do not currently own a strong jawed breed. I had a Staff for 14 years however, and like you said I will defend him because it isn't a breed specific problem.

That being said, I also have a young daughter and who is 3 now, and when the Staff was alive, they were never ever left alone together.

I currently own a springer and a flat coat now, and again I would never leave any child alone with them.

Everything anyone has said is their own opinion on the situation at hand, none of it will be taken any further.


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## ChewieFudge (Jul 6, 2012)

This is so awfull and the owners of these dogs are totally responsible.

It is so frustrating that the same breeds always come up in these tragic accidents.

My personal view (as a Mastiff and CKCS owner) is that there should be some sort of training course or license for ALL dog owners who should carry this with them like a driving licence. Therefore, if a dog causes an injury as a result of no correct training or socialisation and the owner *knows* the dog *should* have been trained in a certain way, they could be prosecuted more efficiantly for not following/ignoring their dog license training.

The problem with large Mastiff breed dogs, or any other powerful breeds is that ALL their behaviours which are the same as any other dog, are exhibited in a larger way.

For instance, if a Mastiff pulls on a lead, it could pull you over. Where as if a Jack Russell pulls, you could almost if you wanted to, ignore the behaviour as its physical size in this situation does not effect you.

Good training and socialisation of both dogs and their owners I believe, is the way forward.

I agree with the comment of the poster asking why would this owner want 5 powerful bull breeds. I believe in order for these 5 dogs to be a well rounded, stable pack, each one would have had to have been socialised and individually trained as a pup which I doubt they were. As for walks, you would need hours and hours of individual and pack training sessions for 5 large dogs to walk together. Due to this, I can't see how they were ever walked properly/at all or given enough excercise. The poor girl was the target of 4 very frustrated dogs.

The girl who was killed may never have owned a dog and therefore did not recognise any warning behaviours. I also read that she was a timid character, which may have made her seem weaker to the pack.

Unfortunately, the girl and dogs have now paid with their lives due to the owners inability or ignorance to meet the needs of her dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DT said:


> [Are] *all* dog owners [to be] licenced?
> We had that in the 60s & 70s, & it was a joke! What we need is stiffer penelties for muppet owners!
> The so called 'hard' man with his status dog [for instance]. It's such a shame that the poor Staffie
> is, yet again, to be dragged through the coals!


i think testing ppl on a general knowledge of dogs, dog-behavior, & their handling or rearing is good; 
dogs are so common & such an everyday presence that IMO ppl *forget* that they're not human,
they don't think as we do, react as we do, don't have the same expectations, & so on.


DT said:


> ...there are no bad dogs - just bad owners
> Stay calm


i'm sorry to say i'd have to disagree.  There aren't MANY bad-dogs; but they do exist, & weren't made 
that way by a human's maltreatment, ignorance, neglect, or other actions, OTHER THAN possibly breeding
their parents.

Some of the very-very few 'bad dogs' came from 2 good parents; those are even more rare. :nonod:


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

I f the girl was alone in the house the truth will never be known. 
Maybe she was eating and the dogs attacked.
Maybe she was feeding some to the dogs and they got out of hand,
Maybe a couple of the dogs started on each other and she intervened,
Maybe..maybe...


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

A "bad" dog can almost always be put down to a human.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> Does anyone remember the news story a couple of years ago... a woman [had] her nose bitten off
> by her Greyhound as she slept...


Where did this occur, do U know? 

i ask b/c the Frenchwoman who received the world's 1st face-transplant was bitten by her own Lab, 
as she slept; the dog removed her nose & a hunk of cheek as well.

of course, it is perfectly possible that a Grey also bit someone's nose off - particularly as i likely 
missed the whole story, :lol: - my access to news has been very limited.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

delca1 said:


> I f the girl was alone in the house the truth will never be known.
> Maybe she was eating and the dogs attacked.
> Maybe she was feeding some to the dogs and they got out of hand,
> Maybe a couple of the dogs started on each other and she intervened,
> Maybe..maybe...


Excellents post there are far too many assumptions going on in this thread and in the press in general.
I agreed its the training and breeding not specifically the breed although some breeds are generally more predisposed to certain behaviours than others but this is where breed knowledge and training comes in.

My understanding is that the breed responsible for the most dog bites in the UK is the labrador so where does that leave breed specific legislation.

Why is it the labrador? Simply because this is the most popular dog breed in Britain.

This wasn't a child at 14 they are teenagers/ young adults they can leagally be left alone for a certain number of hours. However she wasn't a member of the dogs family/ pack and as such shouldn't have been left alone with them.

Nobody should be leaving a visitor alone with their dogs.

Re size and strength people misjudge the strength of a small dog like a terrier they are bred to hunt and kill vermin. My own dog a Fox terrier cross was bred traditionally to hunt fox and badger. The strength in her jaws and shoulders far exceeds that of my large Rough Collie and yet she is small.

Instead of arguing breed specifics, perhaps we should be coming up with workable suggestions for the future. The current outcry of all dogs should be micro-chipped seems to me to be entirely useless.

My ideas and they are just randomly thrown together:

We need to firstly have all dog trainers on a national register instead anyone can set up dog training classes.

Bring back and increase the powers of the dog warden including a traning and formal qualifications.

All dog owners should complete a course with a nationally registered dog trainer and by 1 year old all dogs/ dog owners/ walkers should have a visible means of proving they have been through such a course when they are out in public.

Only breeders who breed for health and temperament should be allowed to breed and advertise puppies for sale. Perhaps your dog should have identity papers to prove this? In a similar way docked dogs have to have papers?

Do we need a national ban on any dogs being bred for say 2 years to allow for rehoming of some of the dogs in rescues around the country?

I'm just throwing ideas out there if all we dog lovers actually brain stormed we will eventually come up with something that will work. If we don't we are likely to end up with horrific laws even worse than the current breed specific legislation.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

children should always have supervising adults present with dogs....sad reminder
...this thread i started when i saw news on btyahoo of Jade Death. The Kennel Club Statement issued following that took up the issues generally around that case as well as many details of the dogs living conditions owner and the child age 14 being known to be afraid of the dogs even the neighbours were afraid of.

The girl was alone with several large dogs who bit her to death. The police arrived and faced an in fury pack of dogs and put most of them down at once to even get to the girl.

details i am sure many have read from news that spread even to France i add.

so i was active on the KC thread on this forum but return here to put a final post by me related only to this thread title...CHILDREN SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE SUPERVISING ADULTS PRESENT when with dogs...

because another thread i got involved in here on this forum was a non dog owning lady whose kids had been bitten by a friends dog who didnt bite its own kids and the dog owner was saying it was the fault of the friends kids...

we dog owners need to be more careful not to blame in particular other peoples kids too fast...in that instance there were no details to suggest the kids did anything incorrect to the dog other than annoy it just by being there strangers not usually there...

and so i asked not finding information on books that this lady could give to her friend to avoid having rows personally too much seeing how she did not accept responsibility for her dog when kids were around...a dog that has bitten kids or anyone is not reliable....the bite drew blood...poor bite control to use a doggie world techie term...something pups need to learn usually...

and so i thought if the title of this thread attracts others seeking any training for dogs with kids needs....i dont have kids myself i add...of course my dogs meet kids and seem to like them more than adult humans as many dogs do i add...but i am careful to be always around with my dogs if kids are playing with them of course...not having read the books or links here i add...just natural caution to me...dogs have teeth...kids are vulnerable...strangers to dogs are more vulnerable than us owners...we need to take care...supervise...train...and control situations where our dogs are in contact with others. kids in particular.

my thanks to the posters that provided the following links and books...

Re: anyone out there know of a book on training dogs specifically on kids issues ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a book but here's some links.
Victoria Stilwell Positively*|* The Safety Guide for Children and Dogs

Why Dogs Bite Children: A Lesson in Preventing Dog Bites in Kids*|*Victoria Stilwell Positively
sarah1983
https://www.dreamdogproductions.com/...thkidsanddogs/

..............

Not a book, but this is one of my favorite dog/kid safety blogs:
ouesi

Blog | Dogs and Babies

Chock full of good information on how to keep both children safe from dogs, and dogs safe from children!

..................

and SMOKEYBEAR OVERDOSED ME ! but it is never enough to have good stuff to read on this SO IMPORTANT ISSUE !

the KC ended its Jade statement saying words to the effect that kids around dogs needed supervision, dogs and kids, words like that...so it is an important last thing to have in mind for sure....the most important thing relating to this tragic avoidable loss of a young life where the dogs in the plural ...owner was just not around and hard even to find after the death...i felt sorry and admiring of this owners son even on facebook stating his mother was outta order with her dogs and that Jade was afraid of them...for a son to criticise his own mother takes some doing...he was in shock...and i am sorry for him if in the future some might associate him and his sisters and brothers if any with this event as the major association...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/Th...oneHandout.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/ch...dogs doc.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/pr...t_for_baby.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/dogsandbabies.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/te...tobegentle.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/whydogsbite.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/th...fdogsafety.pdf
KCRA Dog Bite Prevention I drsophiayin.com - YouTube
http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...and Dogs.pdf
http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/...e_sheet_13.pdf

Safety Around Dogs Information | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

APBC Safety Around Dogs 
Safety Around Dogs Information | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Blue Cross - Be safe with dogs
Blue Cross - Be safe with dogs

The Blue Dog 
All you ever wanted to know about dogs - The Blue Dog

Dog Bite Prevention in Children
Welcome to our Dog Bite Prevention Website -- UT College of Veterinary Medicine

Doggone Safe
Doggone Safe - Home

The Dogs Trust - Learn with Dogs
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/_resourc...tnewbaby10.pdf

Learn with Dogs

Family Paws Parent Education
Family Paws-New parent classes dog and baby

The Kennel Club Safe and Sound Scheme
The Kennel Club Safe and Sound Portal

Living with Kids and Dogs
https://www.dreamdogproductions.com/...thkidsanddogs/

Books

And Baby Makes Four
Penny Scott-Fox

The Canine Commandments
By Kendal Shepherd

Childproofing your Dog 
Brian Kilcommons

Happy Kids, Happy Dogs
Barbara Shumannfang

Puppy Training for Kids
Sarah Whitehead

Your Dog and your Baby
Sylvia Hartmann-Kent

Kids and Dogs 
Ruth Weston and Dr Catriona Ross

Parenting with Pets
Christine Hamer and Margaret Havel

Living with Kids and Dogs - without losing your mind
Coleen Pelar

CDs

Sounds Good Baby

Sounds Good CD-Baby: Legacy Canine Store

this was the thread where the posters gave me us the books and links.

Please pass on by emails etc to friends etc with kids if you think it useful ! i admit i didnt read in books like the culture clash or perfect puppy what i thought were good chapters if any at all on this so important subject. those books had some good and bad other advice i thought but i dont recall anything much about kids and how to train dogs and kids together.

I do hope...that the FEAR OF DOGS generally that will of COURSE increase out in especially the NON DOG OWNING PUBLIC a HUGE number of people in fact...does not mean too many more difficult and unnecessary on the whole anti-dog laws...i do hope laws to prosecute owners of dangerous dogs to others on private property are brought in fast...to addresss such cases and circumstances as the JAde case...and dog registration and dog socialiation tests for dog owners etc...anything helps...

dogs can be dangerous...meaning ? they can bite ! is that such a controversial thing to say or write ??? i dont think so ! cars can be dangerous ! so ? dogs can bite !

people do not NEED to own dogs like they own cars ! so it will NEVER be acceptable to DIE like this ! so young ! or anyone ! if DOGS BECOME LIKE THEIR OWNERS !.... a common expression you will aggree ! with much common sense in it ! then just LOOK at what happens ! people who can be nasty aggressive are bound to want to turn their dogs into nasty aggressive creatures also ! people AFRAID of life people etc are often going to encourage dogs to be aggressive ! others just let their dogs PLAY too hard ! think it FUN for them to bite humans in play ! all kinds of reasons for dogs becoming like their owners or how their owners want them to be !

i do not intend to pursue the WHYs here further...and will not return to this thread.

children like i was once can get SUCH ENJOYMENT from dogs ! i dont want to see them FEARFUL of them ! be encouraged to be fearful if they see or hear dogs attacking humans ! dogs SMELL FEAR also ! take care ! the ancient instincts of wolves that killed mostly injured sick animals as they were poor hunters may play a role here ! the SMELL OF FEAR can make dogs more likely to attack ! if for that reason or another i do not claim to know why...but fearful of dogs people are yes more at risk than those that do not fear dogs i have noticed...dogs often back off avoid conflict if an unafraid of dogs person confronts them unless they feel cornered... but a FEARFUL of dogs person ? well i dont make conclusions but i know fear has a smell.

this is what i like to see...dogs playing with kids..under supervision of responsible adult...my bitch...playing ball with kids. ..i am not visible in the video i am filming close by...but my voice is talking as i am obviously there, controlling supervising the play...as i felt i should...so that everyone enjoyed it well...video...and just one photo of some other kids, my FEJA the black dog and kids not known to her before just met in passing using a throw-ball stick to throw balls for her to fetch ...another white dog in the pic is a Coton de Tulear bitch dog...one my dog played with a few times in passing on chance meetings...both dog owners were there watching supervising...and the parents also nearby...FEE NOIRE is my bitch French name...FEJA JUODA s Lithuanian...it means BLACK FAIRY.

feja juoda FEE NOIRE et enfants jeu balle, kids and dog ball play - YouTube


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## Gruggly (Mar 26, 2013)

Beth17 said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with owning 5 bull breeds if someone wants. It's how any dog is kept and trained that is the issue. Until all the facts come out all you can do is speculate.


Yes and I'm suggesting that those 5 dogs were not cared for properly, that's what led to an attack


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> Where did this occur, do U know?
> 
> i ask b/c the Frenchwoman who received the world's 1st face-transplant was bitten by her own Lab,
> as she slept; the dog removed her nose & a hunk of cheek as well.
> ...


Greyhound bit off my nose... but I love my new face, says former model savaged by her own dog | Mail Online daily mail I'm afraid... but it was only the first hit on google so I suspect there are more. Aug 2009.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JAChihuahua said:


> Greyhound bit off my nose... but I love my new face, says former model savaged by her own dog | Mail Online
> 
> daily mail, I'm afraid... but it was only the first hit on google, so I suspect there are more.
> Aug 2009.


thanks - i did miss that story entirely, it was the month after a death in my family.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> thanks - i did miss that story entirely, it was the month after a death in my family.


Sorry to hear that LFL xxx


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