# FcoV testing



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Can someone please tell me, do many breeders test there girls/boys and they litters for fcov . Also if breeders have positive cats do they have to notify anyone and put them on a list so people buying from them know they have had fcov/fip etc


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills you need to make 25 posts before you can pm

Heres that list

Dr. Addie - FCoV tested Stud and Queen Register


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Thank you for the link . I will have a look


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

think someone has posted on your other thread.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Great.. More information the better.. Btw your babies are little cuties :001_wub:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lol thanx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

This list means nothing at all! One FCOV negative titre doesn't mean the cat is free. It just means they are free at that moment. It can be so easily reintroduced, on hands, shoes, if a cat is taken to stud or show. The only way you remain FCOV free is if you keep your cats in almost laboratory conditions, and that just isn't possible long term. Well, it is, but not all that good for the cats.

Here's another thing to consider. If you buy an FCOV free kitten then bring it home to a household that has or has had another cat in, the kitten has absolutely no immunity to the virus, having never been exposed to it. If no immunity exists, when the virus does come in contact, the reaction will be all the more violent as it won't be mediated by the immune system. I would very much woryr if I bought an FCOV free kitten, I really would.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't test at the moment. For me the jury is out on this one. I've not heard of a test that is reliable and as Carly says it is a snap shot of one day. The chances of FoCV mutating into FIP are very small. Doesn't mean you don't worry. But I do all I can to make sure my cats are healthy. However, paying out for tests that aren't reliable etc doesn't come into my equation AT THE MOMENT. See my previous thread about the cost of my last litter. If I started adding on extra costs I just couldn't do it. http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/289301-genetic-testing-costs-4.html Supposedly 80 - 90% of cats have been exposed to this virus. DOn't know why I stated that but . . .as I say for me, at the moment I don't.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Here's another thing to consider. If you buy an FCOV free kitten then bring it home to a household that has or has had another cat in, the kitten has absolutely no immunity to the virus, having never been exposed to it. If no immunity exists, when the virus does come in contact, the reaction will be all the more violent as it won't be mediated by the immune system. I would very much woryr if I bought an FCOV free kitten, I really would.


And yet, according to Pedersen


> If you can limit coronavirus exposure until 12-16 weeks of age,
> when the immune system is better developed, the likelihood of developing FIP will be less.


http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/local-assets/pdfs/PedersenFIPinterview9-10-08.pdf


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Thank you all for your honest replies... So as I understand it, most breeders will infact breed from fcov queens and studs and hope for the best it does not turn out to Fip. And if the litter does come into contact with FcoV in the long run it would be better for them .. In a so to speak way

I suppose it depends which way you look at it.. If the high percentage of cats have it whether breeders know about it or not we wouldn't have purebreds, as they just wouldn't breed from them... Ethical am still sitting on the fence with this one


Thanks guys


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So as I understand it, most breeders will infact breed from fcov queens and studs and hope for the best it does not turn out to Fip.


I'm not quite sure how you've reached that conclusion. How can two or three anonymous replies on an internet forum possibly translate into such a sweeping statement?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And if the litter does come into contact with FcoV in the long run it would be better for them


That's utter b*ll*cks too.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> That's utter b*ll*cks too.


So what do you suggest breeders do about FcoV positive cats in there breeding programs ????/


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I would assume that the cat has to be ill to even think of testing it. I won't breed from an ill cat. As far as I am aware none of my cats have ever had it. 

But no I wouldn't just continue to breed from an ill cat. And it is so easily transmitted from the environment, your clothes, your shoes etc (not just from an infected cat) that it is almost impossible to guarantee that a cat is titre 0 other than on the day the test is taken. 

FoCV comes and goes. As Carly says the only way to make sure negative cats never come into contact with the virus is to keep them in a sterile lab type environment - which might give you FoCV free cats but they would be very badly socialised and not a good family pet. 

We do our best as breeders, we test for what we can that is definitive, we don't breed if the cat is ill, take cats with genetic problems out of the breeding programme, offer buyer support, etc etc. There is actually only so much that you can do.

If you wanted one of my kittens and wanted it tested then that would be fine (if you paid for the test) as I am as sure as can be my cats are well. When a conclusive test becomes available I will use it, or a vaccine. BUt for the moment, I concentrate on having only 1 or 2 queens, no stud and a hygiene program that means my cats are as healthy as possible.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> I would assume that the cat has to be ill to even think of testing it. I won't breed from an ill cat. As far as I am aware none of my cats have ever had it.
> 
> But no I wouldn't just continue to breed from an ill cat. And it is so easily transmitted from the environment, your clothes, your shoes etc (not just from an infected cat) that it is almost impossible to guarantee that a cat is titre 0 other than on the day the test is taken.
> 
> ...


Spid if im wrong correct me  you say focv comes and goes,i was under the impression once a cat is infected with it then it will always carrie it is this correct or not so?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> So what do you suggest breeders do about FcoV positive cats in there breeding programs ????/


These are simply cats with antibodies to the virus, not cats that actually have it or are shedding it. They have been exposed to it, they might or might not still have it and so far as I know there is no test that can answer that question.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So what do you suggest breeders do about FcoV positive cats in there breeding programs


A cat doesn't remain FCoV +ve forever. Are you under the impression it does?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

From what I've read - some cat's keep shedding the virus all their lives (13%) but most shed for a year and then are clear (until they pick it up again - if they do)

Dr. Addie - How to prevent FCoV transmission

Here Dr Adie shows how cats shed for a while and then when their titre rate hits zero they are considered free.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> These are simply cats with antibodies to the virus, not cats that actually have it or are shedding it. They have been exposed to it, they might or might not still have it and so far as I know there is no test that can answer that question.





havoc said:


> A cat doesn't remain FCoV +ve forever. Are you under the impression it does?


This is the problem - you test a seemingly healthy cat - the result show it carries antibodies - it doesn't mean it actually has it or is infectious just that at some point it came into contact with the virus. As breeders we can't work with that. The only way would be to keep cats in *total* isolation until a proper viable test has been developed. And as Havoc says a cat doesn't remain FCov forever.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

thank you....spid.. Most helpful


some more questions.... I understand that FCOV comes and goes, can the cat fall ill ( down in the dumps ) for a few days or so while shedding the virus?


Also.. If you had say 4 female queens and they all had been tested positive for FcoV but there titre levels were totally different from one another, would to separate them all, keep them all together or separate the ones with the higher titre


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Spid if im wrong correct me you say focv comes and goes,i was under the impression once a cat is infected with it then it will always carrie it is this correct or not so?


Oh for the love of God! How can anyone be under such an impression?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Oh right interesting so for example a breeder who has a cat or cats fcov+ need to wait till the cat has 0 titre then it would be ok to use the said cat in the program?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> Oh for the love of God! How can anyone be under such an impression?


Think i have caught you on a bad day havoc.Feel free to correct me.

I hold my hands up and admit its taking some grasping.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> a breeder who has a cat or cats fcov+ need to wait till the cat has 0 titre then it would be ok to use the said cat in the program?


Absolutely! OrientalSlave has made a good point and one which I'd mistakenly assumed everybody realised. We refer to cats as FCoV +ve when we mean they are FCoV *antibody* positive. If you have a child with a contagious illness you wouldn't send it to school while it was ill but neither would you keep it off school forever because it had developed antibodies to the illness.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Think i have caught you on a bad day havoc.Feel free to correct me.


Frustration has got the better of me on this one I admit


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> Absolutely! OrientalSlave has made a good point and one which I'd mistakenly assumed everybody realised. We refer to cats as FCoV +ve when we mean they are FCoV *antibody* positive. If you have a child with a contagious illness you wouldn't send it to school while it was ill but neither would you keep it off school forever because it had developed antibodies to the illness.


Thanx havoc for clearing up the confusion


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> Frustration has got the better of me on this one I admit


:lol: im sorry


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

we love bsh's said:


> Oh right interesting so for example a breeder who has a cat or cats fcov+ need to wait till the cat has 0 titre then it would be ok to use the said cat in the program?


I suppose possibly - but as that cat would need to be totally isolated for a year or more is it fair on the cat?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> A cat doesn't remain FCoV +ve forever. Are you under the impression it does?


From what i have read the cat gets it. it can flight it off but might appear again if it come in contact with another Fcov+ cat or or its sheds every now and then or its a lifetime carrier and sheds all the time... is this correct?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> I suppose possibly - but as that cat would need to be totally isolated for a year or more is it fair on the cat?


I see your point spid.Unless that cat was used to cattery life i guess.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> From what i have read the cat gets it. it can flight it off but might appear again if it come in contact with another Fcov+ cat or or its sheds every now and then or its a lifetime carrier and sheds all the time... is this correct?


Cosmills no thats not it once the cat builds up antibodies it is free of Fcov.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

13% of cats that get the virus initially will shed the virus for the rest of their lives - see my previous answer for the source. Therefore 87% of cats will overcome the virus and may or may not get the virus again if they come into contact with it again. You just can't tell. Without testing each and every cat every month I don't see how you could ever say that a cat or cattery is FCoV negative.

It's a bit like us - we catch a cold we fight it off, if we come back into contact with that same cold virus we may or may not be able to fight it off completely (and never get the cold) or we may catch the same viral cold again. 

This is where my normal argument about risk comes into play. As a breeder I make sure that I do all I can to minimise the risk of my cat having FCoV, they aren't ill, I keep the litter trays clean, I use clumping litter, they have good food, exercise, are able to go out in the run, don't come into contact with other strange cats (the dog and chickens see them off) etc. I do show - but I wipe down the pen before my cat goes in it, there are sneeze guards etc on the pens, they have their own litter trays which are disinfected - so I minimise the risk as much as possible. When visitors visit young kittens I ask them to take off their shoes and disinfect their hands. It's difficult to stop every thing and take away all risk, but you do the best you can. SO you weigh up the risks and take your chances. 

What stops me testing is that it is just a snapshot of one day, and because the virus is so rife it's not really definitive. That list provides statuses of cats that were tested years ago - who knows whether they have encountered the virus since.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> From what i have read the cat gets it. it can flight it off but might appear again if it come in contact with another Fcov+ cat or or its sheds every now and then or its a lifetime carrier and sheds all the time... is this correct?


The only 'lifetime' carrier I've ever seen quoted was in Diane Addie's old study and he did clear but took significantly longer. As far as I'm aware, at the time of that study she could not test which cats were shedding. Nowadays we can.



> but as that cat would need to be totally isolated for a year or more is it fair on the cat?


Simply not necessary Spid. As we can test for a cat shedding the virus it's unnecessary to isolate cats until they show a zero titer as was done in Diane Addie's original study. It is reasonably easy to eradicate FCoV from a household and much, much easier to keep track of the results than it used to be.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> The only 'lifetime' carrier I've ever seen quoted was in Diane Addie's old study and he did clear but took significantly longer. As far as I'm aware, at the time of that study she could not test which cats were shedding. Nowadays we can.
> 
> Simply not necessary Spid. As we can test for a cat shedding the virus it's unnecessary to isolate cats until they show a zero titer as was done in Diane Addie's original study. It is reasonably easy to eradicate FCoV from a household and much, much easier to keep track of the results than it used to be.


Thanks Havoc - I was working off Dr Adie site - maybe the info is a bit in need of updating.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> That list provides statuses of cats that were tested years ago


That list provides the status of cats that were tested at Glasgow - read on past the list itself. Diane Addie would not accept results from any other lab. The whole idea never took off.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> From what i have read the cat gets it. it can flight it off but might appear again if it come in contact with another Fcov+ cat or or its sheds every now and then or its a lifetime carrier and sheds all the time... is this correct?


How would meeting another cat with antibodies infect a cat with FCoV? I have antbodies to all sorts of things but the people I meet don't get ill from my antibodies.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> How would meeting another cat with antibodies infect a cat with FCoV? I have antbodies to all sorts of things but the people I meet don't get ill from my antibodies.


Sums it up in a nutshell. However, let's make it very clear (because I feel we must )that a cat CAN both have a titer and shed the virus. It is the shedding of the virus which can infect other cats. The risk of that can be reduced substantially though the choice of cat litter and good husbandry. That's actually all it takes in many cases to become FCoV free.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Cosmills no thats not it once the cat builds up antibodies it is free of Fcov


If only it were that simple. If you get a cold it doesn't mean you'll never get another cold because the coronavirus is capable of mutating and we therefore get different strains.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

thanks for all your comment.. altho confussing at times lol

I am trying to get as much information as i can about this bloody thing..

My story

I am new to the world of breeding, something that i have not gone into likely.. I have studied for many many months and spoken to most wonderful breeders along the wayI felt the time was right to go ahead with my long time ambition of life with cats... i was fully aware of all the pro and cons to it, 

I gotmy first queens last year.. they are angels and true to breed, all fit and healthy , vet check and pkd tested.. things were looking super great

girls are set to go out to stud once they become of age and i feel sure that they are in tip top condition.. they are 6months now and looking super.. no problems at all and not a days illness.. no loose motions etc


A few months ago i decided i would have a stud boy so i could use him with my girls for 2014... i ask for advise and the general opinion was it was a good idea.. so the search began.. I wanted the perfect boy for my girls and he took some finding... He was adorable it every way perfect for my girls simalar in age, so they could grow up together.

The girls have always been in my home with us altho we do have a cattery outside for them which is weather boarded and sneeze barrers up, they are do to go out soon, when the weather picks up current ,

Anyway my boy arrived and the girls really took to him, He sleeps with us and the girls have there own house to sleep in .. perfect


2 months down the line my little lad just was not himself.. he was eating drinking and ok with his poo.. he was heat hugging and didnt really want to play.. sad face .. so off to the vets we go... He had a temp of 104.6 so drugs were given. the next day the vet wanted to see him to check temp, it had come down to 103.2.. ,the vet said about blood tests but i didnt have to have them but me being me i said i wanted him fully screen as afterall his was my new stud boy... We went back to the vet a few days later to get his temp check 100.5 perfect back to normal and he was alot happier in himself... some of the blood results were back FIV neg and Felv neg .. just awaiting FcoV results.. but all was looking fine

The horror day arrived.. my little man was Fcov+ with > 10240 reading the vet said its was probably FIP... I took my girls to get tested that night.. Separated him from the girls. we are still awaiting the girls results.. He is not happy that he is away from the girl and he look so unhappy , proper down in the mouth.. altho eating and drinking.. We are back on monday for another blood test and poo sample to find out more.

All litter trays have always been cleaned and litter removed everyday without fail, the girls generally only use there own litter and all food/dish get changedand dishwashered every night.. the house smells of milton.. i have OCD about gems

Whats the best pactice for him and if the girls come back positive, what impact is it going for have on my breeding program ????????

Sorry its a long one..


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

First of all you have to realise that FCoV antibody positive is not the same as FIP. Even if your boy does have FIP it doesn't mean your girls will serconvert even if they have had FCoV. Your girls are presumably from completely unrelated lines so may not have the same genetic susceptibility.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> First of all you have to realise that FCoV antibody positive is not the same as FIP. Even if your boy does have FIP it doesn't mean your girls will serconvert even if they have had FCoV. Your girls are presumably from completely unrelated lines so may not have the same genetic susceptibility.


 Yes I am aware havoc. And no the girls are not related in any way shape or form.... I personality think the vet is not really up to date and is putting the fear of god into me ... Yes he is not his self he has good days and bad days but am putting a lot of that down to missing the girls ... Trying to keep him stress free alone with the girl... But is stressing me out more... Two weeks on and I still don't know wot to do for the best ... Hopefully the girls will be fine.. Stay healthy even if there test come back that they have been infected with it... I just worry about him and if he does have fip. What's the best thing to do with him


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Obviously if he does have FIP there is nothing you can do and it would be better to pts sooner rather than later. 

Other than that hygiene management until he tests negative I suppose. Once he is negative then you can use him again. Havoc will have proper advice - i've got brain fog tonight and not thinking straight.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

carly87 said:


> The only way you remain FCOV free is if you keep your cats in almost laboratory conditions, and that just isn't possible long term. Well, it is, but not all that good for the cats.


There's a study that's just finished, raising kittens from FCOV free parents in a lab. Not sure of the point and what will happen when they leave the lab. 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/539250202766539/


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Well I cannot bear that at the min... When and if he stops eating drinking and I can see him suffering that will be the day


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

So those kittens are raised by people wearing lab coats, masks and gloves, no evidence of toys, no household noises, no carpet, kept in cages by the look of it - will be corona virus free if don't come into contact with the source - but no-one can guarantee that. And that is no way to raise kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Yes he is not his self he has good days and bad days but am putting a lot of that down to missing the girls ...


Here's the silly thing - if he does have FIP then it's most unlikely he's shedding the virus. If your girls turn out to be antibody +ve I'd not deprive the boy of their company. The difficult decision is if they're -ve.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There's a study that's just finished, raising kittens from FCOV free parents in a lab. Not sure of the point


Neither am I. Is there a stated aim anywhere?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> Here's the silly thing - if he does have FIP then it's most unlikely he's shedding the virus. If your girls turn out to be antibody +ve I'd not deprive the boy of their company. The difficult decision is if they're -ve.


After going through this with him I couldn't put myself or the girls if they were neg.. They will go out in the cattery together.. He will stay in with us .. If positive I will out him back until the time comes


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

spid said:


> So those kittens are raised by people wearing lab coats, masks and gloves, no evidence of toys, no household noises, no carpet, kept in cages by the look of it - will be corona virus free if don't come into contact with the source - but no-one can guarantee that. And that is no way to raise kittens.


Agree, it doesn't look very inviting or how I'd ever raise kittens.

Someone did ask on the page what the point was, hasn't been answered as yet.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

From what I gather, I'm guessing the point is to prove that it can be done, but we all know that it can already!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> If only it were that simple. If you get a cold it doesn't mean you'll never get another cold because the coronavirus is capable of mutating and we therefore get different strains.


Yeah i should have added unless it comes into contact with the virus again.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> From what I gather, I'm guessing the point is to prove that it can be done, but we all know that it can already!


Raising FCoV free kittens from FCoV free parents doesn't require laboratory conditions though. I could understand if someone were trying to replicate the experiment of raising FCoV free kittens from an FCoV +ve mother. What they're doing here proves absolutely nothing and is just unnecessary.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

My feeling exactly. It's putting th ekittens through a lot of things htat they don't need done to them, and I personally don't agree with htings like this unless there's something very, very positive that's likely to come from it.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Have to agree with that.. No life for them little ones.. Well thank you all for your advice and links.... I have a lot better knowledge of this bloody thing now... Hopefully my little man will be ok, although he is very down today. Not very mobile due to sore paw .. Will this boy have any luck


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Have to agree with that.. No life for them little ones.. Well thank you all for your advice and links.... I have a lot better knowledge of this bloody thing now... Hopefully my little man will be ok, although he is very down today. Not very mobile due to sore paw .. Will this boy have any luck


 I hope hes feeling better soon cosmills what did he do to his paw?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Know idea if am honest... Not like he has been running riot .. Will not let me look at it and I don't want to stress him out... So I have been playing nurse maid all day.. Hand feeding and syringe watering and taking him to the toilet as he will not put any weight on it


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Know idea if am honest... Not like he has been running riot .. Will not let me look at it and I don't want to stress him out... So I have been playing nurse maid all day.. Hand feeding and syringe watering and taking him to the toilet as he will not put any weight on it


Poor fella i hope he over comes it.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Poor fella i hope he over comes it.[/
> 
> Hope so... The house is abit more stress free... The girls have gone out!! So he can roam about abit more now ... Well not at the min with said paw lol


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Have you tried cooked chicken? He might eat it worth a try


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Have you tried cooked chicken? He might eat it worth a try


He has had chicken and fish today, he is eating ok, think it hurts him to stand for long... He lays down then try's to eat, so mum lends a hand.. As for the syringe watering not seen him drink so am giving him a helping hand


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> He has had chicken and fish today, he is eating ok, think it hurts him to stand for long... He lays down then try's to eat, so mum lends a hand.. As for the syringe watering not seen him drink so am giving him a helping hand


Its good hes eating you could try the stock off the chicken he might drink that as it will smell good


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Its good hes eating you could try the stock off the chicken he might drink that as it will smell good


Great idea .... He worried me yesterday he had not been for a poo for 30hrs . So not normal for him.. Thankfully today he went.. All okay phew ...


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Well im sending him healing vibes


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Well im sending him healing vibes


Thank you...

Do you know , if a cat was tested for Fcov has a minus titre result ie <20 has that said cat ever come into contact with it.... As we know now that a cat with a 0 result could have ... Wot about a minus result... Am asking myself far to many questions lol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

That isn't a minus result, it means the titer is less than 20. Some labs don't test right down to zero. It could be it's as low as they test. The 'number' on its own is a pretty useless thing unless you know which lab and their parameters.

Even a cat with a zero antibody titer could have had FCoV and cleared it. With an older cat you couldn't say. With a young cat/kitten it is more likely they've never had it as it can take a few months to clear.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

havoc said:


> That isn't a minus result, it means the titer is less than 20. Some labs don't test right down to zero. It could be it's as low as they test. The 'number' on its own is a pretty useless thing unless you know which lab and their parameters.
> 
> Even a cat with a zero antibody titer could have had FCoV and cleared it. With an older cat you couldn't say. With a young cat/kitten it is more likely they've never had it as it can take a few months to clear.


Well that's cleared that one in my head .... Thanks havoc your a star


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok looking to the future .. When I decide to bring another cat into my breeding program would it be best to get the breeder to test or leave well alone .. Obviously am not going to do this until I know for sure the girls are clear or there titre levels are down to 0


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