# early spay /neuter, does anyone currently do this ?



## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Hi 
I was just wondering how many breeders practice early neutering with their kittens before sale. It is commonly done in America but not so much over here.
If anyone does do it would love to know your thoughts!


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

The rescue centre I volunteer at does early spay and neuter, not as early as the US but a little earlier than normal.

We generally say 12 weeks for males and 16 weeks for females.

The guideline given to us from the antional RSPCA is to try and get it down to 8 weeks for males and 10 weeks for females depending on weight and size but the vets will not yet do it this early, we need to 'wean' them in so to speak by asking them to do it a week earlier each time until we are at our target age.

It seems to work well and I have not seen any negatives from it at all.

In terms of the kittens that I breed myself I dont do it early but would be willing to if a local vet would perform the op for me.

I don't see any problem with it.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

We early spay/neuter our kittens - usually around 14 weeks as fortunately we have a vet who is happy to do it. We keep the boys for a week and the girls for about 10 days afterwards and following a final check up they can go to their new homes. Initially we were against this idea but after the explosion of BYBs decided it would take the worry away if we could have this done. We did look into it quite a bit and spoke to our vet several times before we went ahead. I have to say I was totally amazed at how quickly the kittens recovered - much more so than being done at six months. Touch wood we haven't had any problems to date with any of the kittens done (we have had 4 litters neuted/spayed early now). Our vet, who is a New Zealander, says it is the size rather than the age of the kitten. Our kitten owners appreciate it too.

If you can find a vet to do it then I would say go ahead though do speak to them first and discuss any concerns you have.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

The Cat Group: Timing of neutering

http://catvet.homestead.com/Early_Age_Altering_Kittens.pdf

some info


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

thanks for all the useful advice. I was seriously considering it anyway but was worried re: anaesthetic combinations in such young cats and recovery rates/complications etc but from what I can see there are less complications if done before/around 12 weeks and the best anaesthetic regime would be pre emptive analgesia and Isoflurane as less risks and quick recovery. I have spoke to breeders in America who do it and some rescues are now doing it over here so I am guessing it will eventually become more common.

I would probably get the vaccs done first then go for op at 13 weeks then rehome boys a week later and the girls two weeks later, so it will mean keeping hold of them alittle longer but I am sure owner wont mind if they know the kitten is all sorted before collection. Do breeders who do this find kitten owners appreciate it and do you charge slightly more with the op having been done in advance?

It certainly would give me peace of mind that none of my kitties would go on to be used in some byb program and abused which would be horrendous. Contracts are all well and good but they are very difficult and costly to enforce so atleast anyone trying to decieve me by buying a kitten in the hope of later breeding without my consent will definately not want one of mine if they find out they will be altered before sale.

I have printed of the info and will take it into work with me. One of our vets did spay his little girl early as she had to have surgery anyway and there where no problems so he is happy doing it but just concerned re the difficulty getting drug doses etc right as you have to be very careful so that is something we will need to discuss well in advance.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I do not particulary agree with it.............they haven't had time to mature. However, thats just my opinion.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

ChinaBlue said:


> We early spay/neuter our kittens - usually around 14 weeks as fortunately we have a vet who is happy to do it. We keep the boys for a week and the girls for about 10 days afterwards and following a final check up they can go to their new homes. Initially we were against this idea but after the explosion of BYBs decided it would take the worry away if we could have this done. We did look into it quite a bit and spoke to our vet several times before we went ahead. I have to say I was totally amazed at how quickly the kittens recovered - much more so than being done at six months. Touch wood we haven't had any problems to date with any of the kittens done (we have had 4 litters neuted/spayed early now). Our vet, who is a New Zealander, says it is the size rather than the age of the kitten. Our kitten owners appreciate it too.
> 
> If you can find a vet to do it then I would say go ahead though do speak to them first and discuss any concerns you have.


Everyone I have spoke to say exactly the same about how much quicker they recover and there does seem to be alot of advantages re less tissue damage and faster healing rates etc. Plus they are in a familar environment surrounded by litter mates when they recover so it has got to be less stressful that way.
What does your vet use anaesthetic wise and does he do subcutaneous stitches etc?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I do not particulary agree with it.............they haven't had time to mature. However, thats just my opinion.


I think in cats it does not pose any problems with their development the only difference is apparently the growth plates of the long bones close alittle later than in an entire cat but no adverse health risks, now if we are talking dogs thats a different matter as early neutering pre first season in large breed dogs has been shown to increase the risk of urinary incontinence later in life (not too sure about small breed dogs).
But everyone will have different opinions from what I have seen aslong as the vet is familar with the risks i.e potential for hypothermia and hypoglycaemia and use the appropriate anaesthetic whilst taking precautions for the above then I dont see much problem with it. Advantage for me I suppose is that I will be there monitoring the kitten and looking after them throughout the whole procedure so I will be able to control and hopefully prevent problems and I will know exactly what is being done, although some may not see it as an advantage I suppose. It has been done for awhile now in rescue centres in America without complications and alot of breeders over there now do it aswell.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I think in cats it does not pose any problems with their development the only difference is apparently the growth plates of the long bones close alittle later than in an entire cat but no adverse health risks, now if we are talking dogs thats a different matter as early neutering pre first season in large breed dogs has been shown to increase the risk of urinary incontinence later in life (not too sure about small breed dogs).
> But everyone will have different opinions from what I have seen aslong as the vet is familar with the risks i.e potential for hypothermia and hypoglycaemia and use the appropriate anaesthetic whilst taking precautions for the above then I dont see much problem with it. Advantage for me I suppose is that I will be there monitoring the kitten and looking after them throughout the whole procedure so I will be able to control and hopefully prevent problems and I will know exactly what is being done, although some may not see it as an advantage I suppose. It has been done for awhile now in rescue centres in America without complications and alot of breeders over there now do it aswell.


Thanks for that, but its my opnion and i disagree with it. I do not like the thought of taking such maturing parts of any animal out to soon.

It does play some part to the maturing process, maybe as owners/breeders people do not think so, but i believe in nature it does.

I will agree with castrating/spaying young kittens but not any younger than 6 months.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I do not particulary agree with it.............they haven't had time to mature. However, thats just my opinion.


See thats what I am like with Soda when they wanted her fixed at 5 months I felt she was to tiny and way to skinny for an opt. She could just see over the steps on the stairs!

Even now she is bigger but is still really skinny no matter what she eats, I'll be a very nervous mommie next week


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Well everyone has there opinions which is appreciated. If they are too small and underweight then I would not do it and I am still wary about the girls being done but there has been alot of success in America with it in rescue. If it helps contol the over population problem then that has to be a good thing, but thats a whole different debate I suppose. For me the reason I want to do it is because I am terrified of a kitten getting into the wrong hands and being bred from indiscriminately. I would always wonder until proof of neutering came back to me, this way If she/he is done before rehoming then I can be 100% sure this will never happen and hopefully put off people with other intentions from getting one of my kittens. Anyone can put on an act and imply they want the kitten to be a loving indoor pet and then go against this later on and even with a contract in place there is not much you can do about it.

An example would be of something I read on a chinchilla breeders website re byb's. She sold a very small girl with a heart problem that she explained to the new owner, at a greatly reduced rate because they only wanted a loving pet and not to breed. She then found out that this poor little girl was running free in this womans home with an entire silver persian who was mating freely with all the cats including her. She is tiny and chinnys being finer boned than persians means there is potential there for huge kittens from a very small girl who could possibly have difficulties and end up needing a caesarian or worse dying from giving birth especially with the heart problem aswell. When she contacted this person She was told to basically get lost and it was none of her business what she did with the cat as it was now hers and there is nothing she could do about it. This person now practices neutering before re homing and never has to worry about her little babies being abused, she could not believe how she was decieved by this person as she seemed so genuine so it can happen to anyone of us breeders. If I can stop this happening with little risk to my babies then im all for it.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> I do not particulary agree with it.............they haven't had time to mature. However, thats just my opinion.


I agree with you. I stewarded for a senior judge and there was a very small for his age kitten in a class that had already been neutered and she remarked what a shame it was as he would never reach his full potential.

All breeds and individuals within that breed develop at different rates, and some aren't even ready at 6 mths let alone 12-14 weeks old. I have read all the pros and cons for early neutering and although I appreciate there appears to be no quantifiable long term affects, like all these sorts of things - how much study was actually done and for how long? Really unless you have a genetically identical twin to that kitten that wasn't neutered young no one can say definitively that it didn't have a detrimental affect on that kittens growth and development.

I understand breeders reasons for early neutering in attempting to protect their kittens, but any sale of a kitten comes down to trust. It does take longer and more effort to find those perfect homes with people you trust completely and it takes time to build up a relationship with those people and not so easy to have them all booked by the age of x weeks. BYBs looking for a kitten are looking for an easy sale, they are not interested in waiting for a particular pedigree, type or colour just an easy sale, the harder you make that process then the less likely they will be to proceed surely. That may well be a naive view and I am sure everyone has a horror sale story they can repeat but in the scale of things, what percentage of overall sales do those cases represent.

Any young animal/human will recover quicker from ops/injury etc but I would question whether its worth the risk when its not necessary to stress their immune systems even more when they are already being pumped with vaccine, moving to a new home to add a GA and op into that mix. Most may well come out the otherside seemingly unscathed, but there will also be those that don't do so well. Is that percentage of that risk comparable to the percentage risk of those kittens being abused by a BYB ?

At the end of the day surely if a breeder does not trust an individual not to breed unscrupulously from a kitten, then that is not the right home for that kitten - period!!! Just my take on things.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

My vet has neutered my kittens at 13-14 weeks or so for the past 6 and a half years. I could not be more pleased at how well it has worked - I must have had around 70 kittens neutered by now and have only had one minor problem ( a girl with a minor post op infection). They recover very quickly, even in comparison with a 6 month old kitten. This year I've also changed my vaccination protocol to 11 and 15 weeks rather than the usually quoted 9 and 12 weeks, and that's worked well too, because the neutering can be done in between the 2 vaccinations. It doesn't bother me at all to keep the kittens longer than the "regulation" 13 weeks - personally I think 13 weeks is too young to let them go anyway.

When I first started the early neutering I increased my kitten price by £50, but since then I've always stated that neutering and chipping are included in the price, and it hasn't increased for around 4 years now. I pay £35 for boys and £45 for girls. Apart from one potential owner telling me it was cruel to neuter kittens, (utter nonsense!) all my owners have been more than happy that they don't have to worry about it.



Clare Ferris said:


> thanks for all the useful advice. I was seriously considering it anyway but was worried re: anaesthetic combinations in such young cats and recovery rates/complications etc but from what I can see there are less complications if done before/around 12 weeks and the best anaesthetic regime would be pre emptive analgesia and Isoflurane as less risks and quick recovery. I have spoke to breeders in America who do it and some rescues are now doing it over here so I am guessing it will eventually become more common.
> 
> I would probably get the vaccs done first then go for op at 13 weeks then rehome boys a week later and the girls two weeks later, so it will mean keeping hold of them alittle longer but I am sure owner wont mind if they know the kitten is all sorted before collection. Do breeders who do this find kitten owners appreciate it and do you charge slightly more with the op having been done in advance?
> 
> ...


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Clare Ferris said:


> Well everyone has there opinions which is appreciated. If they are too small and underweight then I would not do it and I am still wary about the girls being done but there has been alot of success in America with it in rescue. If it helps contol the over population problem then that has to be a good thing, but thats a whole different debate I suppose. For me the reason I want to do it is because I am terrified of a kitten getting into the wrong hands and being bred from indiscriminately. I would always wonder until proof of neutering came back to me, this way If she/he is done before rehoming then I can be 100% sure this will never happen and hopefully put off people with other intentions from getting one of my kittens. Anyone can put on an act and imply they want the kitten to be a loving indoor pet and then go against this later on and even with a contract in place there is not much you can do about it.
> 
> An example would be of something I read on a chinchilla breeders website re byb's. She sold a very small girl with a heart problem that she explained to the new owner, at a greatly reduced rate because they only wanted a loving pet and not to breed. She then found out that this poor little girl was running free in this womans home with an entire silver persian who was mating freely with all the cats including her. She is tiny and chinnys being finer boned than persians means there is potential there for huge kittens from a very small girl who could possibly have difficulties and end up needing a caesarian or worse dying from giving birth especially with the heart problem aswell. When she contacted this person She was told to basically get lost and it was none of her business what she did with the cat as it was now hers and there is nothing she could do about it. This person now practices neutering before re homing and never has to worry about her little babies being abused, she could not believe how she was decieved by this person as she seemed so genuine so it can happen to anyone of us breeders. If I can stop this happening with little risk to my babies then im all for it.


Would you never sell to someone who wanted to breed?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I agree with you. I stewarded for a senior judge and there was a very small for his age kitten in a class that had already been neutered and she remarked what a shame it was as he would never reach his full potential.
> 
> All breeds and individuals within that breed develop at different rates, and some aren't even ready at 6 mths let alone 12-14 weeks old. I have read all the pros and cons for early neutering and although I appreciate there appears to be no quantifiable long term affects, like all these sorts of things - how much study was actually done and for how long? Really unless you have a genetically identical twin to that kitten that wasn't neutered young no one can say definitively that it didn't have a detrimental affect on that kittens growth and development.
> 
> ...


you have made fair points and yes I suppose they all develop differently. My first sibby who was purchased as a pet and occassional show cat. He was done before hand and he has gone on to develop wonderfully and he is definately not small at nearly 6kg. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that sexual hormones not being present stunt growth. You wont get the big jowls with a neuter than entires get but even if done at 6 months you dont get that either. I have seen older boys one plus who are like this but who wants to keep a boy to that age as a pet?

It is always my intention to vet new owners properly and I agree people wanting an easy sale wont wait hence why I have not sold to people who just phone me up ask have I got kittens and then go elswhere when I say no. They dont want to go on a waitlist so they dont get a kitten. But people can be very clever in deceiving others and someone can come across as really nice but unless you can read minds or see into the future I would always still wonder. Obviously I will have to be 100% happy to sell a kitten but it still has no guarantees. As I think you said earleir the price of siberians may also attract alot of byb's wanting to make money so I have that added pressure also to deal with.

If they are being fed a good diet and cared for they will develop well eventually I have an entire girl who is not big. I am willing to give it a go and see how it works out. There have been alot of good things said about early neutering and how they heal quicker than even a 6 month old. A nurse I work with had her foster kitten operated on at about 8 weeks because he swallowed a teat from the bottle ... he was a very vigorous feeder and she could not believe how quick he was awake and running round completely after it.

Obviously not for everyone I suppose but I do believe it wont cause major harm otherwise I would not do it just for my piece of mind.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> As I think you said earleir the price of siberians may also attract alot of byb's wanting to make money so I have that added pressure also to deal with


Surely thats a reason to resolve that issue price wise rather than put a kitten at risk from a GA to resolve it, and as I am sure you are aware all GAs carry a risk no matter how small, at a time when a lot of other stress factors are being thrown at a kitten


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Would you never sell to someone who wanted to breed?


Yes I probably would but not yet. I am new to breeding and I need to develop my own lines and see which cats produce the best kittens. I would only really want to sell good girls for breeding with a contract in place. I would however only sell to another registered breeder who I had met through showing or had referred to me from someone I knew well who also could recommend the person as being ethical. Or someone who contacted me that maybe I did not know but got to know over a long period who could prove to me that they were registered and had the necessary basic knowledge and ethics as me. So a serious breeder wanting my lines who would be willing to wait and do everything properly, not someone wanting a girl now from just anyone.
So basically I would not sell to someone who phoned or emailed me saying have you got any girls for breeding which has happened alot already. I even had a breeder ask me to sell him a stud boy. Now this would almost certainly be a no. Not without knowing the person very well and having restrictions on the boy they buy. But to be honest when you are paying a few thousand to import a boy as I am going to be doing who is from a new line not currently in this country it would be very silly to then go and sell someone a boy for stud so it would also be done to protect my lines.

I am all for helping new breeders get started once I have more experience behind me but they must also be in it for the right reasons and not as a way of making money at the cats expense.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Surely thats a reason to resolve that issue price wise rather than put a kitten at risk from a GA to resolve it, and as I am sure you are aware all GAs carry a risk no matter how small, at a time when a lot of other stress factors are being thrown at a kitten


The price issue I dont think I can control alone. My prices are based on what others charge so I dont charge high prices. When the overall price comes down which I am sure it will eventually when they become more popular, then that may help. But I think if I lower my price alot then I may get more byb's approaching me as they would think they can get a registered sibby for half the price everyone else charges. I suppose also other breeders/pet owners may look at my price and think well she is very cheap what's wrong with her kittens, they must not be pure bred. Its a difficult one which I cant contol alone. I am sure if you charged half the normal price for yours or any other breeder for that matter you would get similar responses. 
I am well aware of the GA risk also regardless of the age but there are things that can be done to reduce these risks before and during surgery. I would do vaccines and then a week or so later the op. I would then probably rehome the boys a week later the girls two weeks later once the stitches are out. I have heard arguments that the stress levels are greatly reduced as the kittens are going back to a familiar environment with mum and litter mates were they feel secure to recover fully so that could go in their favour. It means rehoming alittle later but I dont mind this.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

You say about lowering your 'prices' will encourage more BYB's...........your right. 

BUT, is it not your reponsibilty to vet the potential owners? You should only home your kittens to people whom you trust, and you put your trust in to ahere to your contact? 

This is where keeping in contact with the new owners come in..........

Never mind taking bits out of babies at such a young age to make sure they don't breed, but how about trusting your instincts about potential new owners? And vetting to such a position that BYB's and irresponsible owners would not bother with?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You have complete control over what you charge. Sensible pricing has to start somewhere. Bengals are a prime example, I am sure that all started with well they charge that so I will etc. They are currently really suffering from that early must have designer label being sold for a premium. Surely its better to resolve that issue whilst the breed is in its infancy than wait until it gets so out of hand no one has contol over it.

Decent pet owners are also just as likely to be attracted to sensibly priced kittens. As I said BYBs are not interested in jumping through hoops no matter how much you charge.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Saikou said:


> You have complete control over what you charge. Sensible pricing has to start somewhere. Bengals are a prime example, I am sure that all started with well they charge that so I will etc. They are currently really suffering from that early must have designer label being sold for a premium. Surely its better to resolve that issue whilst the breed is in its infancy than wait until it gets so out of hand no one has contol over it.
> 
> Decent pet owners are also just as likely to be attracted to sensibly priced kittens. As I said BYBs are not interested in jumping through hoops no matter how much you charge.


I agree! So if breeders make sure there are ''hoops'' to get through then BYB's will be less inclined to go through them!

Well said.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> You say about lowering your 'prices' will encourage more BYB's...........your right.
> 
> BUT, is it not your reponsibilty to vet the potential owners? You should only home your kittens to people whom you trust, and you put your trust in to ahere to your contact?
> 
> ...


Its all well and good but I am sure if you go and speak to other breeders who have been fooled into selling a pet that then went onto breed they would tell you it is not that easy. I respect your views but it is the only sure way of it never happening. There has been no evidence to say it is of detriment to the cat and I am sure thousands of cats have been done already if not millions throughout the world. You can never 100% trust everyone to do the right thing even if they act as though they will in the beginning once they have that cat it is a different story. It may only happen once in a breeders lifetime but thats one to many times imo. As for keeping intouch with people not that easy, if all you have is a phone number or address they could easily move or fall of the radar. Life just aint that simple
for the record I dont make it easy for owners to buy a kitten and you can create as many hoops as you want but if someone is determined then I dont think it will matter, yes most would still be put of but not all I am sure. As for sensible pricing Im not about to start selling cheap kittens incomparison to everyone else. The price will fall in its own time when the breed is more established I am sure. I could argue that by early neutering then I am preventing the lure of backyard breeders. If we all breed responsibly and are careful what we sell then hopefully we wont have alot of byb's developing. I think with bengals the attraction was the look of a wild cat that so many found attractive hence a good selling point, just like with your common breeds, I know for a fact there are alot of byb's of persians out there and they are one of these cheapest, most long standing breeds there is. Sphynx and pixie bobs are very expensive £1000+ and thats just for a pet double atleast for a breeding animal yet I cannot say I have seen many byb of these breeds. Pet owners also need to be educated on what to look for in a responsible breeder so they dont buy from byb which I hope one day will put them out of business. Hence why I have so much info on this on my website for people who are keen to know what to look for. I believe this is a very important part of the problem also.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Bengals may have had their 'wild cat' hook, but I have seen siberians marketed as being hypo allergenic -not a hook used by all admittedly - and aren't some breeders charging for sending out hair samples 

Sokokes in this country are probably in smaller number in this country but are being sold for more normal kitten prices, so its not all new breeds exploiting that fact. In fact one breeder over here who was in the process of importing them from a breeder in Europe had that transaction halted when the seller found out the UK breeder had the intention of charging £2000 per kitten!!

To my mind, it doesn't make sense to charge an above average price for a breed where the enthusiasts wish to promote that breed's popularity and increase a small gene pool. Surely logic would say if a breed was more expense than profit then that would put off any byb - which come in registered format just as much as unregistered - as there is nothing in it for them, plus it makes those kittens more accessible to genuine pet homes. Surely any new breed wants to ensure they are attracting true lovers of the breed and not just those who think they can make a quick buck from that breed.

I personally think anything done to a kitten/cat where there is an element of risk, has to be done for true benefit of that kitten/cat and not to control a market for the breeders benefit or to try and prevent something happening to that kitten/cat that can be controlled in other ways ie not making them financially attractive to bybs or by the breeder putting more effort into finding the right homes for their babies.

I think you asked for peoples opinions on the subject having already made your mind up on the subject. Just in the same way that you would not consider changing your views, neither will those of opposite opinion


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I would simply not be comfortable now if my kittens left without being neutered - I'd feel I had not fulfilled all my responsibilities as a breeder. Nothing to do with not trusting the owners - of course I wouldn't sell to someone I wasn't happy with.



Acacia86 said:


> You say about lowering your 'prices' will encourage more BYB's...........your right.
> 
> BUT, is it not your reponsibilty to vet the potential owners? You should only home your kittens to people whom you trust, and you put your trust in to ahere to your contact?
> 
> ...


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## Yestin (Jan 9, 2010)

I have recently rescued a 2 yr old Irish Soft Coated Wheaton. I want to have him nuetered, but I was told his fur would possibly change if I did. He is so soft & silky, I'd hate to have it change.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening. My vet isn't familiar with the breed, so no sense asking him.
Thanks in advance for yr reply.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I think thats a question for the dog section, but a friend has a cocker and she read the same about them, that their coats change after being neutered and goes woollier.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Bengals may have had their 'wild cat' hook, but I have seen siberians marketed as being hypo allergenic -not a hook used by all admittedly - and aren't some breeders charging for sending out hair samples
> 
> Sokokes in this country are probably in smaller number in this country but are being sold for more normal kitten prices, so its not all new breeds exploiting that fact. In fact one breeder over here who was in the process of importing them from a breeder in Europe had that transaction halted when the seller found out the UK breeder had the intention of charging £2000 per kitten!!
> 
> ...


Whatever you charge you will get byb and the fact is no one can tell in advance what someone will later do with the kitten if they are altered already then they dont get much choice. I would imagine most pet owners would be happy for it to be done as it is one less thing for them to worry about. Breed prices vary wheter it be dog, cats or whatever, at the moment what I charge is the norm for this breed I dont think it is expensive really and there are breeders with more common breeds charging more then average for whatever reason. Anyway cost is not really what I wanted to talk about. I posted the thread to get the opinion of others who have experience doing it and their experience of it good and bad before I truely make my mind up.

Yes I was leaning more towards doing it anyway but if I came across alot of problems that occured later in the cat then ofcourse I would change my mind.
Siberians are marketed as being hypoallergenic because they are! The breeder where 3 of my cats came from has a husband with allergies. They used to breed persians until he could nolonger cope with the cats being around she switched to sibbys a few years back for this reason and they must have about 15 of them now and he has never had a problem with them. It does not guarantee everyone will be fine as different lines produce different responses and it depends on the severity of the persons allergies but it is believed sibbys have less of the Fel D1 allergic protein in their saliva which is why so many people can tolerate them. It is also one of the reasons I got into breeding them because I thought it would be nice for someone who wants a cat but has never been able to have one before through allergies to finally get the oppertunity to have a pet.

I think breeders charge for allergy sittings and sometimes fur samples but this generally comes of the cost of a kitten. I am sure if a well known breeder did every allery sitting for nothing it would prove very costly and time consuming the allergy sitting takes a couple of hours and when you are busy to have alot of people coming round and no guarantess they are buying a kitten then thats why they do it, to cover the time it takes. It is normally only a small fee and I would not have a problem paying it really.

I think a breeders responsibility is to do the best by their cats and if someone believes in the benefits of early neutering then aslong as its not harming the cats it really is their choice I suppose. I have alot more research to do before I decide fully and I wont have a litter ready for that till the summer anyway so plenty of time.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Yestin said:


> I have recently rescued a 2 yr old Irish Soft Coated Wheaton. I want to have him nuetered, but I was told his fur would possibly change if I did. He is so soft & silky, I'd hate to have it change.
> Has anyone ever heard of this happening. My vet isn't familiar with the breed, so no sense asking him.
> Thanks in advance for yr reply.


I work in a vets and so many people ask will it change them or their coats. I have never heard of it changing the coat but I do know of some breeders who show who have said it does, not with your breed I think it was Irish setters. Is your dog a show dog? To be honest you have to weigh up the pros and cons and if all you are worried about is his coat texture changing then think about the risks with an entire dog. From a medical point of view entire male dogs are at risk of testicular tumours mainly benign but the treatment is catration anyway which in an old dog is risky. Perineal hernias are also common due to the hormone testosterone. This is where the muscles around the anus weaken due to testosterone and rupture so the dog cant go to the toilet properly and faeces collect in a pocket around the anus insted of being passed. It is a very difficult operation to repair and because of the nerve endings in this area you can risk them becoming incontinent. Certain skin tumours I think can be linked to entire dogs also. Plus they are more likely to fight and be aggressive especially towards other dogs, stray to find a mate and risk getting ran over etc.

I personnally believe in preventative healthcare like neutering. It is also less risky to put a younger dog under anaesthetic than an older one so if you do it best to before they get too old. Only draw back with it is they can put weight on which is easily resolved by feeding a low fat food and not overfeeding it and plenty of exercise. Both my dogs are done girl and boy and I had no problems but they are short coated crosses so could not tell you if there coats changed much, but even if it had it does not matter when you are talking about their overall health which I think is more important.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

My understanding is not all siberians are hypoallergenic as the levels of Fel d 1 differ per line. Its still a marketing hook, as is the allergy samples/sittings. All of which just give profitering bybs more to be interested in. How very nobel of siberian breeders to breed just to benefit those with allergies.

Its pointless going round the houses about bybs, the fact is they are attracted to those breeds who are seemingly being bred at a profit, that they can exploit. Yes you can early neuter, but that doesn't stop their interest in that breed, which I would have thought would be the primary aim of any breed group. An individual breeders aim should also be to vet very carefully any new home and ensure that they have complete trust in those kitten buyers.

As I said before anything that's done to a cat/kitten, especially where there is risk involved whatever the level of that risk, should be done for the sole benefit of that cat/kitten alone and not for the benefit of the breeder.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> My understanding is not all siberians are hypoallergenic as the levels of Fel d 1 differ per line. Its still a marketing hook, as is the allergy samples/sittings. All of which just give profitering bybs more to be interested in. How very nobel of siberian breeders to breed just to benefit those with allergies.
> 
> Its pointless going round the houses about bybs, the fact is they are attracted to those breeds who are seemingly being bred at a profit, that they can exploit. Yes you can early neuter, but that doesn't stop their interest in that breed, which I would have thought would be the primary aim of any breed group. An individual breeders aim should also be to vet very carefully any new home and ensure that they have complete trust in those kitten buyers.
> 
> As I said before anything that's done to a cat/kitten, especially where there is risk involved whatever the level of that risk, should be done for the sole benefit of that cat/kitten alone and not for the benefit of the breeder.


I did say it depends on the lines thats why the breeders advise sittings with the parents first and then the kitten or can send fur samples if this is not possible but it gives people hope. A back yard breeder could see any pedigree cat as a way of making profit if they have very little expenses i.e vaccs, blood/health testing parents, good food, registration etc. They would just leave it upto mum to feed them then wean then on cheap chrap and then ship them of at 6-8weeks having paid out next to nothing. I do also think they look at the popularity of the breed also as this means more sales.
Theres no point going with an expensive breed if they cant sell them.

Sorry but I detect a hint of sarcasim in your post, correct me if im wrong. I am not sure what you are trying to imply with regards to siberian breeders advertising them as hypoallergenic and breeding so that people with allergies can also enjoy having a much loved pet. I am sure if you had allergies and loved cats it would break your heart not being able to have one, would you not hold some hope in the fact that maybe there was a breed you may be able to tolerate. That is certainly the message I get from allergy sufferers anyway.

Well I do think vetting is very important and with all the best intentions in the world we cant read minds. I am sure it does give breeders piece of mind but they could also say it is of benefit to that cat as they will be neutered anyway and it is preventing a life of misery and abuse should that nice, vetted owner turn out to be something else, i.e byb.

Can I ask have you ever had any situations occur when a kitten you sold as a pet was bred from without you knowing or any new owners fall of the radar when it came to checking up re neutering etc. Can you always be 100% sure when you sell a kitten they are genuine?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I am highly suspicious of any marketing hooks placed on kittens sales - period. Even more so in a new breed looking for a niche in the market. From what I have read, only a 1/3rd of siberian lines have reduced levels of fel d1 in their saliva and even at those levels can only benefit those with mild allergies. Apparently there has also been no official study to prove that siberians are anymore hypoallergenic than any other breed of cat.

Fact is, stated by most articles you read, than no cat is truely hypoallergenic and most owners with allergies build up a tolerance to their own animals over time, it just depends on how long they are willing to tolerate symptoms of that allergy and how bad that allergy is to begin with.

True that any breed can be utilised by a byb for profit, but you only have to look at the adverts to see that most are targetting those high priced breeds. Back to the original subject the small risk of encountering a byb, for me, does not warrant the risk of giving very young kittens GAs at an already stressful times in their lives. For those breeders that do carry out early neutering and have done successfully good for them if they have found something that works for them and their kittens. To my mind there are other ways round the issue of bybs if that is your sole reason for practicing early neutering, as now been discussed at great length 

In answer to your question, as I only have a couple of litters a year I can afford to be incredibly fussy as to where those kittens go. I disregard a good 90% of all kitten enquiries, if I have the slightest doubt I do not persue the matter. I have not lost contact with anyone prior to their neutering and am still in contact with the vast majority, even if its just to exchange a christmas card and have the odd update. I am very well aware that you can not guarantee to keep in contact with people long term, I believe that point was made to you in another thread!!! So far this has worked for me. If others prefer to early neuter for peace of mind, thats their business, as I have stated above, I am yet to be convinced that the risk of one of my kittens falling into the hands of a byb is greater than the potential risk of a GA etc for a very young kitten.

You have obviously decided that early neutering is for you, and if you have found a vet that is willing to carry it out then you are all set. Good luck I hope it works out for any future babies you may have. If thats your chosen weapon against the byb, great, I prefer a different course for the reasons already stated and that works for me


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

well they are a new breed here but they have been around a very long time well before any other long hairs infact some believe that is where most long hairs originated from. The fact is that alot of allergy suffers cope well with the breed. And yes no one cat is truely hypoallergenic but they dont need to be for people to be able to tolerate them. You only have to look at my friend who's husband has allergies, most of here cats where imported and they were not able to do allergy sittings first they just had to have faith that as a breed they produce less allergic response. I dont know the exact percentage of cats that are hypoallergenic and yes not all lines are but I would think it was more than a 1/3rd. Yes there have not really been any studies as such into this but people have looked at the allergen in some cat breeds and moggies and compared this to the siberian and they were found to have the lowest level of Fel D1 especially if neutered. 

For me the proof is in the pudding so to speak, if allergy suffers can tolerate them then why should they not have a cat. Some individuals do get used to most cats after a while but may always have a slight allergic response to them. If they can have a breed that potentially produces little if no reaction then I am sure life will be much more comfortable.
It is not a marketing hook, not everyone chooses the breed for this quality, I did not. You make it sound as though breeders are making false claims about the breeds qualities! Some people like them for what they are very nice loving cats regardless of any hypoallergenic claims, not everyones likes the look of your traditional breeds or what has happened to them. But it is all down to personal choice, we all like different things otherwise the world would be a very boring place. I still dont think it entirely true that byb target expensive breeds they could target anything that has a market for selling well. Any breeder no matter what they breed is at risk.

Well I wish I had your faith in human nature, for me even well vetted owners does not equal a genuine person no matter how long you get to know them for? You obviously can be very fussy where youre kittens go, maybe it is a skill acquired with experience. What exactly puts you off a owner out of interest, how do you decide that yes this person is genuine? or how do you know for sure? Did you not have any dodgy owners in your early days that turned out to be not what you thought or any bad experiences in ths area? Ofcourse I would not sell someone a kitten I did not think could provide a loving home but I see it all the time in work. People coming in with animals and they are nice well mannered people who say well we may just have a litter or two from her before spaying! did these people get their animals without restrictions or are they just thinking well the breeder will never know. I would imagine they are getting them from people who do not have contracts but for me even the most genuine person can turn out not to be. There would be 100% certainty in my mind if sold altered there would be no breeding of that animal, but like I say I would love to be able to mind read and know for sure peoples true intentions. It is the main reason for me wanting to do it before sale and if it has no major health risks then I dont see the problem, but ofcourse not everyone will agree. Well I hope it works out also, thanks


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well there is certainly a very good advertisement for early neutering on the other thread!

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

When breeders are making money by having allergy sittings and selling hair samples, then yes, its definitely a marketing hook. If the articles I have read are true and they have stated only 1/3 have the reduced fel d1, are breeders testing their lines before marketing their cats as hypoallergenic. Have you for instance? Can you say definitively that the lines you bought in fall in to that category and back that up with scientific proof ?

Funnily enough I have very little faith in human nature, sad as that may seem, but in this instance maybe thats a good thing - it has certainly worked for me. To my mind I don't see how anyone can say they trust a kitten owner enough to entrust that kittens life and welfare to that person, and then in the same breath state that you don't trust them not to breed from the kitten. If believed they have the potential to lie about their intention to breed then why wouldn't they lie about their intention to keep the kitten in the best of health, not to pass on the kitten without the breeders knowledge etc etc.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> When breeders are making money by having allergy sittings and selling hair samples, then yes, its definitely a marketing hook. If the articles I have read are true and they have stated only 1/3 have the reduced fel d1, are breeders testing their lines before marketing their cats as hypoallergenic. Have you for instance? Can you say definitively that the lines you bought in fall in to that category and back that up with scientific proof ?
> 
> Funnily enough I have very little faith in human nature, sad as that may seem, but in this instance maybe thats a good thing - it has certainly worked for me. To my mind I don't see how anyone can say they trust a kitten owner enough to entrust that kittens life and welfare to that person, and then in the same breath state that you don't trust them not to breed from the kitten. If believed they have the potential to lie about their intention to breed then why wouldn't they lie about their intention to keep the kitten in the best of health, not to pass on the kitten without the breeders knowledge etc etc.


Firstly I don't market my cats as hypoallergenic and no other breeders do this is simply not possible what might be hypoallergenic to one person may not be to the next. I tell people to have a sitting to see if they react. There is no point rehoming a kitten for it to be returned later so surely for the kittens sake it is best to see if the owners react to that line first. I hardly think they make money of allergy sittings to be honest especially when it comes of the price of the kitten if they get one. But I suppose there could be some byb claiming to have a siberian and having people visit and charge for this knowing they will have a reaction hence making money that way. Although I hardly think they will get rich doing that. The hypoallergenic market cannot be that big! No I cannot say my lines fall into this category for everyone hence why breeders have allergy sittings. Well you seem to have done alot of research on the breed then, I certainly have never come across that statement or others I work with???

There is a difference between entrusting a kitten to someone and not wanting them to breed from it? They may want to breed with all the best intentions in the world, but do I want anyone breeding from my lines that I have worked hard to produce and paid alot of expense for and hopefully had success showing? No. Not Without my consent. As I do not want them being bred in a way that is of detriment to their health. The point I am trying to make is you may sell the kitten as a pet, not for breeding but a contract wont stop people from doing it anyway if they have their mind set on it. They could very well fall of the radar and sell the cat on it is another risk breeders take. Not everyone is as lucky as you and has your inate capabilities of being able to 100% guarantee the kitten will be looked after in the way you intend. You have certainly been very lucky that none of yours have fell into the hands of byb's.

I may never have a problem with them if I vet people carefully but what I am saying is even with being extremely fussy there are no guarantees. I dont want to take the risk tbh. Anyway we are just going around in circles here. You dont agree with it others do or want to give it a go. I am sure if you put your argument out there to breeders in America they would love to hear it, seen as nearly all breeders there practice it with no problems.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> There is a difference between entrusting a kitten to someone and not wanting them to breed from it? They may want to breed with all the best intentions in the world, but do I want anyone breeding from my lines that I have worked hard to produce and paid alot of expense for and hopefully had success showing? No. Not Without my consent.


Ah so its not for the benefit of the kittens health and welfare its for you as a breeder


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well there is certainly a very good advertisement for early neutering on the other thread!
> 
> Liz


Maybe I should start a new thread...Are Siberians really hypoallergenic or are breeders riping people off!


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Ah so its not for the benefit of the kittens health and welfare its for you as a breeder


its for the benefit of both me and the kittens and you could say the owner as it saves them the worry of getting it done later


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Clare Ferris said:


> There is a difference between entrusting a kitten to someone and not wanting them to breed from it? They may want to breed with all the best intentions in the world, but do I want anyone breeding from my lines that I have worked hard to produce and paid alot of expense for and hopefully had success showing? No. Not Without my consent.


I suspect this is the actual reason most breeders choose to early spay/castrate...


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> I suspect this is the actual reason most breeders choose to early spay/castrate...


I am sure it is one of many reasons also the fact that you may have a kitten with a defect or health problem that you dont want bred from for health reasons as was the case with the chinchilla breeder, you sell it at a reduced rate because of the problems and you end up with the kitten getting into the wrong hands. If she had neutered that kitten first then I am sure that person would not have wanted it. Anyone who is genuine would not have a problem with it. It is to protect the kitten and yes the breeder but this is not the main reason. I believe it also benefits the breed as a whole as only the best, strongest individuals should go on to contribute to the gene pool not animals sold as pets that may not be good enough. My breed is a very hardy breed at the moment with no known problems and ethical breeders would like it to stay that way.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Any byb unregistered breeding would never end up back in the breed gene pool, as the kittens can not be registered. That remains within the control of the registered breeders.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

personally i think people should be able to choose whether to neuter or not, rather than have the decision made for them.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mollythecollie said:


> personally i think people should be able to choose whether to neuter or not, rather than have the decision made for them.


Well they do have the choice to buy or not!

Liz


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Iam seriously considering early neutering my next litter, I just wonder how they would develop looks wise compared to a cat neutered at 6-12 months?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Any byb unregistered breeding would never end up back in the breed gene pool, as the kittens can not be registered. That remains within the control of the registered breeders.


 Are there not registered and unregistered breeders? If cats of below breeding standard where bred from then eventually you would have cats of poor quality with problems out there being passed of as unregistered siberians which would give the breed a really bad rep and whilst they may not end up back in a registered breeders breeding program they are still out there and people are still buying them. They could be bred with non pedigree longhairs, persian or whatever. Some breeders are concerned re other cats being added into the gene pool which is affecting the hypoallergenic qualities of the breed. This would certainly cause problems with that trait if unregistered and breeding was unchecked.
Not everyone buying a kitten has the knowledge to go to a ethical, registered breeder unfortunately and some just are not aware of the difference. They see a cute kitten and dont think of the consequences of buying from a byb, I see it all the time unfortunately.
Take the case of persians I have seen alot of unregistered kitties with awful problems with eyes, breathing etc. Now I am sure reg breeders do their best to help ensure the above is not a problem but the breed as a whole is renowned for being unhealthy. There is even talk of the breed standard being changed because of it. I dont know if anyone saw the program that was on th BBC about dog breeds and their health issues but that sparked alot of talk and demands for breed standards to be rewritten for certain unhealthy breeds. I have heard people saying that the same thing could happen in the cat breeding world. It has certainly been in the veterinary press recently!
The fact is Persians are now targeted because of the potential health problems they have partly brought about probably by byb breeding wrecklessly and to the extreme with little regard for health imo. and also the breed standard I would imagine in some registries? I feel if I have some control of which animals are being bred and who is breeding from mine then it makes it more difficult for byb to get a hold of them for the purpose of making money with no regard for health. I would imagine that is the aim of all ethical breeders isn't it.? to protect their kittens and the future of the breed as a whole


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Jen26 said:


> Iam seriously considering early neutering my next litter, I just wonder how they would develop looks wise compared to a cat neutered at 6-12 months?


My first siberian was neutered at 12 weeks and he is now 18 months old, nearly 6kg and a big, heavy boy. It certainly has not stunted his growth. I have not seen any evidence either to say it does? I am not sure with your breed as I know they like the boys to have big jowls is that right? unneutered boys I would imagine have this more so than neutered but I dont think getting them done at 12 or 6 months would make much difference to this. I know some bsh breeders who advise owners to wait till 12 months so they can develop this as they mature more? You have to weigh up the reasons for wanting to do it against the risks. If you have read the thread then you will know my reasons and the reasons are similar for most breeders that do it already, worldwide. So it is upto you really. Although if a cat is going to be shown I do not know if it would be better for them to develop and get it done at 12 months incase it does affect their facial features?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> personally i think people should be able to choose whether to neuter or not, rather than have the decision made for them.


People make the choice when they approach you for a kitten. They tell you there and then what they want the kitten for pet, show, breed. The breeder then sells them the best kitten for this. Buying a kitten *does not *automatically equal breeding rights. Most wont sell to anyone just phoning round looking for a cat to start breeding with. Especially breeders with the top show winning lines. For me to sell a kitten for breeding to a newbie they would have to prove themselves as being serious and their reasons for wanting to do it and even then I would have to get to know them very well before I would even consider it. Most breeders wont just allow their cats to go for breeding. The only reason I got mine is because I had known her over a year and stayed intouch. I got a show, neutered boy first and she felt my intentions where good ones. Otherwise I would not have got a cat from her for breeding. She is very fussy about who she sells to for this to protect her lines as one of my girls has come from a very good, show winning line which the breeder has spent thousands of pounds trying to achieve. Of course there are probably people out there who will sell a kitten for breeding even if it is not good enough as it means more money from the sale as they normally cost more


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't think you can say it hasn't stunted his growth as you have no idea what size he would have grown to if neutered later. At nearly 6kg he is at the lower end of average for a male neuter siberian - is he not ?

With regard to this thread demonstrating that



> If you have read the thread then you will know my reasons and the reasons are similar for most breeders that do it already, worldwide.


  I see very few agreeing with early neutering and certainly not from worldwide contributors 

With regard to unregistered cats affecting the gene pool I think you misunderstand the term pedigree - if a cat is unregistered it is NOT a pedigreed cat!! If there is no register of that cats parentage then it can not be classed as a pedigree merely a pedigree look a like. A 'breeder' could produce generations of those pedigree look alikes but they will never enter back in to the gene pool of registered pedigrees.

With regard to the dillution of their supposed hypoallergenic status, if only 1/3 of siberian lines can claim that status to begin with, then they are already in the minority. I fail to see how unregistered breeding can dilute those lines further - see above. If routine testing of fel d1 levels is not carried out by siberian breeders then any registered breeder could be doing the same. You may well be working with lines that have high fel d1 levels and a unregistered breeder just happen to aquire a line with very low fel d1 - not that they would ever enter back into the pedigreed gene pool - see above.

Also just to clarify, unregistered does not automatically mean byb - just as registered doesn't automatically mean not a byb!!

The clear message I get from this thread is the main reason for early neutering is to protect the breeders business, and nothing to do with being in the best interest of the kitten.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I don't think you can say it hasn't stunted his growth as you have no idea what size he would have grown to if neutered later. At nearly 6kg he is at the lower end of average for a male neuter siberian - is he not ?
> 
> With regard to this thread demonstrating that
> 
> ...


You can take whatever message you like from the thread and if it makes you feel better then so be it. I know my reasons and I dont have to explain myself time and time again. You are obviously always right so what point is there in carrying this on. Time and time again the same old same old:nonod:
Im sorry but since when where you an expert on the breed or anything for that matter. I dont think you are in any position to comment on my cats and the breed you are not familar with. My boy is a baby at only 18 months and since you are such an expert you should also know that it takes upto 5 years for them to fully mature. 6kg in the moggy world is big! I have seen many a judge pick him up and comment on his size and weight in relation to it being heavy. not what a shame he was neutered early its stunted his growth. Yes I dont know if he would be heavier now had the breeder waited or if he is heavier for being neutered early you dont know that and can never prove it even with siblings. Its not all about weight but his condition and health which imo is good. !

Again I never said the thread everyone agreed with it or that there where worldwide contributers to this thread as was referring to breeders in general who practice it! I do wish you would stop going on about the whole hypoallergenic thing. It has not been proven or disproven and I still dont know where you are getting the 1/3rd thing from. All I say is dont believe everything you read. If you bred these cats, which you don't, then you would have more grounds for a debate on the amount of owners that react etc.

As regards un reg cats I am well aware that if they dont have a pedigree then they cannot be that but there are alot of unregistered cats out there that may be contributing to the overall health problems in one breed. If all vets see are sick cats from a certain breed they dont care if reg or not they just see that breed with alot of problems. It may be that bred properly the health problems are not an issue. So they see the poorly bred, examples of the breed.

I fail to see what use testing of FelD1 has at this point in time. what would the readings mean and how can you then transfer that data over to your screening of people with allergies. No one person will know how they react until they have a sitting. I dont even know if there is such a test yet more research needs to be done with this very young breed. I really dont think you are in a position to be discussing this subject when you have no experience of the breed or allergy sufferers. Just as I wont start stating so called facts on the siamese.

I also fail to see why any reputable breeder would not register their cats, but can see alot more byb not doing it or infact being unable to as they have probably acquired their breeding cats under false pretence. Yes there may be exceptions to this but they are probably in the minority. Do you register your cats since you only have two litters a year?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> The fact is Persians are now targeted because of the potential health problems they have partly brought about probably by byb breeding wrecklessly and to the extreme with little regard for health imo. and also the breed standard I would imagine in some registries?


I rather doubt that unregistered breeding is responsible for extreme type in persians - just have a look at the adverts, the ones advertised as unregistered are invariably very open type. It's the show winning lines that are extreme and that, I'm afraid, is down to judges' refusal to implement the GCCF veterinary defects list.

Liz


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

There's only one real way that a BYB may affect lines is if a breeder uses any cat, registered or not, to breed with a registered cat & registers the kittens saying that the unknown cat is a different but registered cat. I would imagine that is highly unlikely to happen. No doubt that people register kittens with false sires sometimes but to bring in an unregistered cat..? 

BYB & their poor lines only affect the pet market as any inbred health issues cannot be passed back into registered lines unless a registered breeder does the above.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> There's only one real way that a BYB may affect lines is if a breeder uses any cat, registered or not, to breed with a registered cat & registers the kittens saying that the unknown cat is a different but registered cat. I would imagine that is highly unlikely to happen. No doubt that people register kittens with false sires sometimes but to bring in an unregistered cat..?
> 
> BYB & their poor lines only affect the pet market as any inbred health issues cannot be passed back into registered lines unless a registered breeder does the above.


What does it matter what market it affects someone is being fooled into buying a pedigree without papers and potential health problems. I have to say that only half if not less of the young so called pedigree animals I come across are reg but most owners dont care as they get convinced if you just want a pet its not important or will end up costing them more. Its about the health of individual cat. The above could happen as I am sure there are dodgy reg breeders who may need to outcross but lie about this in the pedigree, I have heard other breeders say this and the fact the pedigree is only correct provifing it is actually those cats that have been used. Unless you do a DNA parentage test how would you know? highly unlikely but anythings possible.
The point I was making way back at the beginning before this thread got way out of hand was I dont want one of my kittens ending up in a byb program hence early spay. I honestly cant even remember how we got onto this current topic


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

lizward said:


> I rather doubt that unregistered breeding is responsible for extreme type in persians - just have a look at the adverts, the ones advertised as unregistered are invariably very open type. It's the show winning lines that are extreme and that, I'm afraid, is down to judges' refusal to implement the GCCF veterinary defects list.
> 
> Liz


It could be responsible for health problems wheter down to extreme type or not. They dont have to be extreme for some health problems like PKD. Then theres eye problems etc which I have seen alot in cheap bought unregistered cats, breathing problems, uneven bite the list goes on and on and you see a mix of extreme and longer noses or I do anyway maybe thats just because I see all the sick ones. I have seen some horrendous looking unreg persians in my time and its enough to put anyone of the breed. Hence why I didnt go into them.
Pkd for instance I doubt that byb breeders test for this or anything else for that matter. So I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was saying they were responsible for the extreme type ofcourse not it was probably reg breeders breeding only for show success and the judges who are then controlling the overall type by choosing more extreme cats as winners.
But these cats then get in the hands of byb who breed with no regard for health further worsening things.
Besides what would a reputable breeder do if they produced a cat with an uneven bite? would they sell as a pet, probably I highly doubt they would breed from it, but then what happens if that owner then does not keep to the agreement and it is mated to an equally defective male, they produce kittens which are then more than likely to have defects and will go on to be sold to pets owners knowing no better or to the next byb for the highest price so the problem goes on and on??? and it all started with a reg breeder selling a kitten as a pet to someone who did not neuter but then went onto breed. If altered already this would have been halted in its tracks so doing something to protect the breed and all those kitten owners that may have bought from the byb somewhere down the line.
Or you could ofcourse sell the kittiy to what seems a responsible home and hope for the best, I personnally would be worried sick until I got proof of neutering back about what was going to happen with the kitten.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

This is a debate Clare, one that you started!! I fail to see why you feel the need to be so aggressive - AGAIN  

I don't think I have said anywhere I am an expert, but just because I don't breed a particular breed does not exclude me from knowing bits and pieces about them. If you want to get personal, then I don't think you are in a position to call yourself an expert on the breed. According to what you have written you first saw the breed in a magazine. The oldest of your siberians is only 18mths old and therefore have owned the breed for no more than 15mths. You have only exhibited siberians at a handful of shows under one registry, and had one litter which resulted in one kitten ! Very much a novice in all respects.

Registering kittens does not make a reputable breeder! What makes a reputable breeder is the way they maintain their breeding cats and bring up their kittens. The ultimate aim of any breeder should sure be to have healthy, well adjusted babies with fabulous personalities. If those kittens are sold health checked, vaccinated etc why is that breeder not reputable simply because they do not pay to have their kittens registered. As I have said before, unregistered does not necessarily mean byb, nor does registered mean not a byb!!!!

I fail to see what relevance whether I register my kittens or not has to do with this discussion. Nor why the fact I don't flood the market with kittens ie only have a couple of litters a year would have any bearing on whether they were registered or not. You have only had one kitten - did you register him seeing as he was the only one   Are you now trying to imply I am a byb because I do not early neuter my kitten :nonod: :nonod: :huh:

Just to clarify a point under the GCCF, the breeder is not registered the breeders prefix is registered. I suspect TICA is the same.


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

i can see the point in early neutering in kittens that have the "defects" if they are able to be operated like the kitten you mentioned with the heart defect however i personally am not keen on the idea in general personally


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Pediatric neutering does not sit comfortabally with me either, a case of too much too soon. For me, the ultimate question is this; if person you trusted asked you for one of your kittens and you knew, without the _slightest_ doubt, that they would have him/her neutered at around six months - would you still choose to early neuter? Because the point is, if the only reason you decided to early neuter is because you cant trust the people you are selling to then I would suggest you find a better method of screening your potential kitten owners. Dont get me wrong, Im sure its an extremely tough job and its a shame you cant just take people at face value, but why should those unscrupulous bybs and the like have such an effect on breeders and their kittens, forcing them into doing something they wouldnt otherwise choose?

As I said, my personal view is that it is too much too soon. When you think about what a kitten goes through in its first 13 weeks of life - putting him/her under a general anesthetic for an operation on top of that just seems too much. I have read a few articles about early neutering and the overall impression I got was that the practice of it was simply a necessity in response to either controlling feral populations or kittens that had found their way into shelters. Whereas many people said that they felt early neutering might not cause the long-term effects that where first feared, neither did I see any real bonuses other than to control the numbers of cats which had not known the luxury of being a part of responsible breeding/ownership. Surely in the private sector, i.e. where someone wanting a kittens goes directly to a breeder, we have much more of an opportunity to control the problem of welfare? If people feel that early neutering is being forced upon them as the only solution, then its clear other measured need to be thought of. For instance, what about more home checks and vet references, to name but a few possible options? Surely back yard breeders would get put off even making an enquiry if they knew they were going to have to jump through hoops for a kitten? I just think surely this is not the only option?

Both my cats where neutered around the 6/8 months mark, and it just seems a more appropriate age to me. I read some vets saying that younger kittens recover very well after the procedure, but I would ask compared to what? as my two where trying to bounce off the walls as soon as they got home! The only other point I feel is that, those vets that agree to neuter young kittens from breeders, may (as cynical as this sounds) be motivated by the fact that they feel the money is better off in their pocket rather than if that kitten is neutered in a few months after he/she was gone to a new home and under a different veterinary practice - just a thought!

I would also say that I personally would not opt for a kitten which had been neutered so early.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> This is a debate Clare, one that you started!! I fail to see why you feel the need to be so aggressive - AGAIN
> 
> I don't think I have said anywhere I am an expert, but just because I don't breed a particular breed does not exclude me from knowing bits and pieces about them. If you want to get personal, then I don't think you are in a position to call yourself an expert on the breed. According to what you have written you first saw the breed in a magazine. The oldest of your siberians is only 18mths old and therefore have owned the breed for no more than 15mths. You have only exhibited siberians at a handful of shows under one registry, and had one litter which resulted in one kitten ! Very much a novice in all respects.
> 
> ...


I know it is a debate and I am not being aggressive, maybe alittle frustrated at the constant disagreements from you on almost everything I say I am entitled to say what I feel but what point is there bringing up things that are nothing to do with this thread i.e. statements about a breed you are not familiar with. 
I have been interested in the breed for over two years I waited a year before getting my first cat and I have done alot of research and got advice from other breeders. I am well aware I am no expert on the breed but I know enough and I am still learning.

You are forever bringing up the fact that I have had only 1 kitten ....so what! everyone has to start somewhere having 20 kittens does not make someone better. I had two kittens actually but lost one after a constant slog of hand rearing for over two weeks fighting to keep her alive if you must know, something I do not like talking about as it is too upsetting. I have started out with alot more knowledge than others so the fact I have had one pedigree kitten does not mean I have limited experience rearing kittens, I have reared alot of kitten in the 10 years I have been in practice, many with health problems that were strays that had been dumped which does make the whole process alot harder. I have been up every two hours feeding kittens whilst in a fulltime job and had to cope with loosing kittens a few weeks down the line after putting in alot of hard work, which is heart breaking. I have had to cope with the difficult aspects of rearing kittens more so than most breeders who may have not had many problems so I feel alittle annoyed and upset by your constant implying I have hardly any experience when you have no idea the work I have put in for years with stray kittens.

I asked if you register yours because I got the impression you didn't. It does not make anyone less careing because of it but if you are selling pedigrees then dont you have a duty for them to be registered and go with a pedigree? If not then can you actually say you are selling pedigree cats? For the record ofcourse I registered him, why wouldn't I when I have a registered prefix. All my kittens will be registered as I sell pedigrees.

Can I just ask what you mean by your last point about the prefix being registered and not the breeder. Is the breeder not linked to the cattery on my cattery reg it says I am the owner of this prefix and that I agree to abide by the breeder code of ethics! Or do you mean that the breeder is not subject to spot checks and their breeding practice is not monitored hence just because they have a prefix does not mean they are reputable? Well I am sure there are reg breeders also who act like byb, hence why we need to educate owners on what to look for in a good breeder, but I dont see why people would not register their kittens if the parents are registered, maybe you could explain please as it does not cost that much and is not that much hassle, well for U.K registries I would imagine it isnt, but it is a dam pain when you have to send everything to America to be told they have not recieved it or something is wrong and they send everything back for you to start the whole process again.

My kittens dad was not reg for almost a year as it took them that long to sort it out, being an early generation siberian with direct russian origin there was alot of questioning re early generation cats in his pedigree so it went on forever, such a pain, anyway back to the thread. I do think it is alot to put a kitten through but I do think it has it's benefits and if you space things out and hold onto the kittens alittle longer which most do then I dont think it is like you are doing everything at once. But people will obviously not always agree with it, its like anything new people dont like change and get into the habit of doing things a certain way. I could very well try and vet new owners more but I would still always wonder if people fell of the radar, why and what they were doing with the kitten etc.I did trust my kittens new owner and he was not neutered and I hope he will be when he is 6 months, but going to the vets where I work means I can keep tabs on her, lol so to speak


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Otterwhiskers said:


> Pediatric neutering does not sit comfortabally with me either, a case of 'too much too soon'. For me, the ultimate question is this; if person you trusted asked you for one of your kittens and you knew, without the _slightest_ doubt, that they would have him/her neutered at around six months - would you still choose to early neuter? Because the point is, if the only reason you decided to early neuter is because you can't trust the people you are selling to then I would suggest you find a better method of screening your potential kitten owners. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's an extremely tough job and it's a shame you can't just take people at face value, but why should those unscrupulous bybs and the like have such an effect on breeders and their kittens, forcing them into doing something they wouldn't otherwise choose?
> 
> As I said, my personal view is that it is too much too soon. When you think about what a kitten goes through in it's first 13 weeks of life - putting him/her under a general anesthetic for an operation on top of that just seems too much. I have read a few articles about early neutering and the overall impression I got was that the practice of it was simply a necessity in response to either controlling feral populations or kittens that had found their way into shelters. Whereas many people said that they felt early neutering might not cause the long-term effects that where first feared, neither did I see any real bonuses other than to control the numbers of cats which had not known the luxury of being a part of responsible breeding/ownership. Surely in the 'private sector', i.e. where someone wanting a kittens goes directly to a breeder, we have much more of an opportunity to control the problem of welfare? If people feel that early neutering is being forced upon them as the only solution, then it's clear other measured need to be thought of. For instance, what about more home checks and vet references, to name but a few possible options? Surely back yard breeders would get put off even making an enquiry if they knew they were going to have to jump through hoops for a kitten? I just think surely this is not the only option?
> 
> ...


I could very well ask for references from their vet etc if they are registered with one and have had animals previously but if they havenot what then. I am not in a position to be travelling all around the U.K doing spot checks on peoples homes so that is out of the question unfortunately. I had hoped that by witholding pedigrees until after neutering proof would put breeders off but how do you put of the byb with this when they could still breed unregistered cats. I do hope to god I dont have much of a probelm with it and alot of people who have approached me for breeding cats have vanished once I started asking questions which is a good thing so atleast I can have some control over that sector but it is just pet owners I am finding a difficult one. I would only sell if I thought they were being looked after but some pet owners just have it in their head that cats have to have a litter before spay, obviously I would educate them otherwise but they may still decide to do it even if it means without registering them. I may wean myself into it slowly by just doing the boys and see how that goes as it is less invasive and depending on how they grow and develop I may go on to spay the girls at a slightly older age.
Its a difficult one and what scares me is the horror stories of the abuse some breeders kittens get when ending up in these homes, I could never forgive myself if I knew one of my babies was being subjected to that. It may only happen on rare occassions or never but theres no sure way of knowing. Yes it is sad that I feel I may have to do this to protect my kittens.
I dont think any vet would push a breeder to do it for monetary gain and that just sums ups people view of vets on the whole I think which is sad. They do the job because they love animals because it certainly is not for the money despite what people think, when I tell people what vets really get paid they are shocked at how little it is. Anyway I should not be talking about that but I just think it wrong to imply they would recommend something not of benefit to an animal for money


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## Mochali (Sep 29, 2008)

Would love to but my vet wont!


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> They do the job because they love animals because it certainly is not for the money despite what people think, when I tell people what vets really get paid they are shocked at how little it is. Anyway I should not be talking about that but I just think it wrong to imply they would recommend something not of benefit to an animal for money


I would have to strongly disagree with you there. Yes, I'm sure there are many vets who have the animals welfare at heart, but there are _plenty_ that do not - I have met some, unfortunately.:nonod: With all due respect, as much faith as you might have with the vets you work for you don't have the authority to speak for the veterinarian body as a whole nor to dismiss a view which another person has based on their own experiences.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I know it is a debate and I am not being aggressive, maybe alittle frustrated at the constant disagreements from you on almost everything I say I am entitled to say what I feel


I think if you look back you will find I joined this thread responding to someone elses comments not yours. Since then everytime I have posted you have quoted what I have said and commented!!! Yet supposedly I am the one having constant disagreements with you   Looks the other way round to me  You have done this on every thread, and then when you run out of argument start with the personal comments and making out you are being attacked. I too am entitled to say what I feel and have every right to respond to your comments made directly to me.



Clare Ferris said:


> but what point is there bringing up things that are nothing to do with this thread i.e. statements about a breed you are not familiar with.


You have no idea what I am familiar with and what I am not!!! My interest in pedigree cats does not just stop with my own breeds that would be a little sad.

If you look back at the beginning, you mentioned your breed first I hadn't mentioned breed or price



Clare Ferris said:


> As I think you said earleir the price of siberians may also attract alot of byb's wanting to make money so I have that added pressure also to deal with.


The subsequent debate was not irrelevant as you stated you are to early neuter to prevent bybs, I pointed out there are other ways to deal with bybs being interested in particular breed, as you had already bought siberians into the mix, that was used as an example nothing more!!!!!



Clare Ferris said:


> You are forever bringing up the fact that I have had only 1 kitten


Not true!! I mentioned it in relation to your inexperience with the breed, and 2 yrs is nothing in experience terms, and with regard to your inexperience with kitten sales. In both instance that is relevant - I have not questioned your ability to raise a kitten. I am well aware you had 2 kittens in that litter, but was sensitive enough not to mention the second kitten!!!



Clare Ferris said:


> I asked if you register yours because I got the impression you didn't.


Yet again a false impression!!! Just because I don't like breeders that take this elitist stance that because they register their kittens they are better breeders than everyone else, are doing everything correctly blah blah blah does not mean I do not register mine, it just means I am able to put into context just what registration really means!!! I have seen many a bad kitten farmer hide behind their registered prefix.



Clare Ferris said:


> For the record ofcourse I registered him, why wouldn't I when I have a registered prefix. All my kittens will be registered as I sell pedigrees.


 Did you think Saikou was my christian name :lol: Sorry to disappoint you.



Clare Ferris said:


> Can I just ask what you mean by your last point about the prefix being registered and not the breeder.


Exactly that. Your prefix is registered not you as an individual.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Mochali said:


> Would love to but my vet wont!


Can I ask why you want to please, just interested


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I think if you look back you will find I joined this thread responding to someone elses comments not yours. Since then everytime I have posted you have quoted what I have said and commented!!! Yet supposedly I am the one having constant disagreements with you   Looks the other way round to me  You have done this on every thread, and then when you run out of argument start with the personal comments and making out you are being attacked. I too am entitled to say what I feel and have every right to respond to your comments made directly to me.
> 
> You have no idea what I am familiar with and what I am not!!! My interest in pedigree cats does not just stop with my own breeds that would be a little sad.
> 
> ...


ok... do you know what your right again ofcourse. how silly of me to post such utter nonsense, I obviously dont know what I am talking about


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## Mochali (Sep 29, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> Can I ask why you want to please, just interested


1. I would know the kitten was neutered, so the cat wouldn't get pregnant accidentally...its not just pregnancy they could get but diseases, etc from straying unprotected cats.
2. The owners of my kittens have said it would be so much easier for them as then they would only have to see the vet for the next lot of immunisations. Less stress on the cat.
3. My own peace of mind


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

You said your own vet wouldn't do the procedure - did they explain to you their reasons why?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> ok... do you know what your right again ofcourse. how silly of me to post such utter nonsense, I obviously dont know what I am talking about


Thanks :thumbup:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Well i have to say that for the majority of cats and kittens i am very pro early neuter/spey.

The only reasons i would wait would be a preexisting health condition, or perhaps if my boy was to be a show-cat. In which case neutered cats dont often develope the larger "tom" head and jowells. In such cases i would wait until fully mature at around 12mo.

Other than that... sooner the better. My vets will neuter from 12 weeks and i tend to get my fosters done at 14 weeks if they havent been homed by then. They recover so much quicker, and i havent observed any detrimental effects with early neutering.

I am opposed to the idea in dogs though, because they mature differently and developmentally.

Hope it helps, and these are just my thoughts.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

having just read the rest of this thread, 

wow am shocked at such an argument!

only two things to say

1 - my opinions are based on my experienced in the rescue network

2 - utter codswollop - cats being hypoallergenic/more tollerant to allergies.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Well i have to say that for the majority of cats and kittens i am very pro early neuter/spey.
> 
> The only reasons i would wait would be a preexisting health condition, or perhaps if my boy was to be a show-cat. In which case neutered cats dont often develope the larger "tom" head and jowells. In such cases i would wait until fully mature at around 12mo.
> 
> ...


So its ok to leave it because of 'showing' but its not ok to leave it for the benefit of the kitten??

Gosh the showing world of all animals has a lot to answer for.

Of course early spaying and neutering will affect them in some way, you'll be taking out a major part of their anatomy way to early.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> So its ok to leave it because of 'showing' but its not ok to leave it for the benefit of the kitten??
> 
> Gosh the showing world of all animals has a lot to answer for.
> 
> Of course early spaying and neutering will affect them in some way, you'll be taking out a major part of their anatomy way to early.


woooooahhh

re-read.

IF you have a show male then the show cats need to have the large joweelly look... its fairly simple. A pet kitten doesnt need to become sexually mature and develope the jowels.

*Please dont verbally attack me.*

your opinion is that it is too early, i respect that, however my opinion is very different.

Having worked in rescue for a good many years, and fostered countless pregnant mums many of which are 6mo kittens themselves i am very pro early neutering. Too often boys are sexually mature before 6mo, too often they begin to spray and so end up in rescues because their owners turf them out, too often a female cat gets pregnant at 5/6/7 mo and dies due to being too young to be a mother, too often a young cats kittens die because she is too young to breed.

I'm afriad you wont change my opinion on that unless you can furnish me with hard facts and scientific studies which contra-indicate it. The studies i have read have all been positive, the ONLY things that indicate a difference would be the final growth size of the male cats (there appears to be no difference in the female cats), and the slightly longer (i believe the one study i read had it at 3 weeks longer) time period it took for the growth plates to mature in the long femur bones.

If you are so keen on them being fully mature....

then male cats wouldnt be neutered until 18mo-2 sometimes older in some cases, and females from 12-24mo once they have stopped growing. Neutering at 6mo is still a kitten, still with alot of growing and maturing to do.

In that time a female could easily have had 6 litters, be calling every 4 weeks and the boy fathered countless more.... not exactly responsible ownership for the majority of pet owners who let their cats roam!!!


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> IF you have a show male then the show cats need to have the large joweelly look... its fairly simple. A pet kitten doesnt need to become sexually mature and develope the jowels.


I can only talk from personal experience, but my Black Oriental was neutered at 7 months old and is long and lean and you certainly couldn't mistake him for a big jowelly stud cat. He sailed through to become an Imperial.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> They recover so much quicker, and i havent observed any detrimental effects with early neutering.


This is my big worry about it - no detrimental affects initially, but what long term studies have been done ? What happens long term ? Are males more likely to suffer UTI etc. For me there has not been enough research done into the long term affects.

I can also see no verbal attack made on you, just someone stating their opinion


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

I have read that some people believe that the stress of the experience of early neutering _could, in some cases_, bring about FIP in young kittens . I really don't know anything about the link between the two, only people who have experience in the matter first hand would be able to share their views. However it does strike me that when you read information about the pros of early neutering there doesn't seem to be much regard to the kitten as a whole, rather just reference to the technical side to the procedure. Perhaps the long term effects are more complicated that the initial recovery time?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

with all due respcet saikou your breed is not exactly the large headed jowelly type. Not when compared to the BSH, Exotic, etc. As i keep on saying again and again, i am speaking from my experience of years in rescue. I have not witnessed any long term or short term adverse effects, but like you i would be interested in such a study, should one be available.

The studies i have read have shown no adverse effects, other than the slightly longer maturing time for the femur growth plates. 

Still havent had my questions answered though by the other poster. 

Neutering at 6mo is still neutering before maturity and still as kittens. The cats are still growing and developing at this age.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Saikou! I did not verbally attack anyone.

BBM, 6months old is the equivilant of a 10 yr old human. So the kitten is well on the way to being fully mature.

I know they are still a kitten but its sure as hell better to neuter at 6 months rather than a baby.

Thats the difference, a baby or a teenager? This is why i would go with 6 months old. (although personally i would wait longer as i wouldn't need to be in any rush to have them done)

With regards to the show males not being neutered early, then there is a loop hole for ''wanna be'' BYB's? Because they can request they want a show male and therefore get them intact rather than asking for a pet male and having him done.

So in reality if early neutering was made more ''public'' knowledge than BYB's would simply use the ''i want to show him'' line.

I do respect your opinion, i respect everyones opinions. But i have my own and i do not agree with taking such major parts out of a baby. I agree in terms of maturity 6 months is not ideal but its certainly much better.

I think 6 months neutering came around because this is when cats get sexually mature.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Cat Fanciers' Association: Early Spay/Neuter in the Cat

some key points

1 - The studies of body composition and body fat indicated that Group 1 (neutered at 7 weeks) and Group 2 (neutered at 7 months) were identical and were generally fatter than Group 3 (neutered at 12 months, after they were sexually mature). Investigators point out that by 12 months, the male cats in Group 3 were already exhibiting the normal adult male characteristics of decreased weight and the development of jowls, which accounts for some of the differences.

2 - There was no difference observed in the growth rates in all three groups, although the males grew faster in all groups. Increased long bone length was observed in both males and females in Groups 1 and 2. This appeared to be due to the fact that physeal closing (closure of the bone growth plate) was delayed in Groups 1 & 2. This explains why cats neutered and spayed as kittens are frequently larger (longer and taller) than unaltered cats or cats altered later in life. This seems to be particularly true for males.

3 - In terms of behavior, after 7 months, the cats in Group 3 were noticeably less affectionate and more aggressive prior to altering than the cats in Groups 1 and 2. Contrary to popular opinion, neutered animals were as active as their unaltered age mates.

4- Observations of urinary tract development showed no differences between the three groups other than the differences related to sex and these were consistent across all groups. The investigators measured the diameter of the urethra in the male kittens only and found no differences between the groups. Concerns have been raised that early neutering would result in smaller diameters in the urinary tract, resulting in an increased incidence of cystitis and related problems. This does not appear to be the case. The main differences observed between the groups occurred in the comparison of secondary sex characteristics. Males were examined for differences in the development of the penis and prepuce (skin covering the penis), as well as for the development of penile spines. The penile spines were absent in Group 1, smaller than normal in Group 2, and normally developed in Group 3. In the examination of the female kittens, investigators found that the vulvas were more infantile in Groups 1 and 2 and normal in Group 3. None of these differences had any impact on the ability to catheterize the kittens. *Concerns that development of the urinary tract might be arrested or impaired by early spaying and neutering proved unsupported. *

5 - The results of this study so far indicate that the differences between cats neutered at 7 weeks and 7 months are insignificant. The differences observed between animals in Groups 1 and 2 and the animals in Group 3, while in some cases statistically significant, are not differences which appear to affect the health of the animal in a negative way.

This was from the winn foundation study.

another summary of one of their studies and others here... along with the veterinary associations that support early neutering.

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Pages/Early_Age_Altering_Web.pdf

Some other studies to read include...

1.Aronsohn MG, Faggella AM. Surgical techniques for neutering 6- to-14-week-old kittens. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 202(1);53- 55, 1993. 
2.Chalifoux A, Niemi G, Fanjoy P, Pukay B. Early spay- neutering of dogs and cats (letter). Canadian Veterinary Journal Vol 22; 381, 1981. 
3.Faggella AM, Aronsohn MG. Anesthetic techniques for neutering 6- to-14-week-old kittens. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 202(1);56-62, 1993. 
4.Hosgood G. Anesthesia and surgical considerations in Hoskins JD (ed) Veterinary Pediatrics - dogs and cats from birth to six months, Philadelphia, WB Saunders Co., p. 561, 1995. 
5. Land TW Favors Early Spay/Neuter. Journal ot the American Veterinary Medical Assoc. Vol 216 (5) 659-60 2000
6.Lieberman LL. Advantages of early spaying and neutering (letter). Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 181(5);420, 1982. 
7.Lieberman LL. A case for neutering pups and kittens at two months of age. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 191(5);518-521, 1987. 
8.Root MV, Johnston SD, Johnston GR, Olson PN. The effect of prepuberal and postpuberal gonadectomy on penile extrusion and urethral diameter in the domestic cat. Veterinary Radiology & Ultrasound Vol 37(5);363-366, 1996. 
9.Stubbs WP, Bloomberg MS. Implications of early neutering in the dog and cat. Seminars in Veterinary Medicine and Surgery (Small Animal) Vol 10(1);8-12, 1995. 
10.Stubbs WP, Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS. Early neutering of the dog and cat in Bonagura JD, Kirk RW (eds) Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XII Small Animal Practice, Philadelphia, WB Saunders Co., p. 1037, 1995. 
11.Theran P. Early-age neutering of dogs and cats Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 202(6);914-917, 1993.

Basically all the studies which are now up to date and the longest running is now 9 years old and still continuing with follow ups.

show that there is no significant differences between kittens of either age when neutered. So why are you all so against it?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I think 6 months neutering came around because this is when cats get sexually mature.


NOPE!

It was the earliest that veterinary surgeons could reasonably controll a safe anaesthetic. At the time, it was very difficult to anaesthatise a very small animal, but science has moved onwards and upwards.

There is no evidence anywhere that suggests that the conventional neutering age was suggested because they were more mature.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> with all due respcet saikou your breed is not exactly the large headed jowelly type. Not when compared to the BSH, Exotic, etc.


Whooaaa back at you - where did I mention my breed, jowels or the like   I just asked about studies on long term affects. You have waded into this debate all guns blazing firing out accusations left right and centre 

You also seem to have contradicted yourself. You say you have seen no detrimental affects then admit that it does affect the overall development of the cat, albeit only for show purposes.

From what I have read, you don't breed pedigrees yet but are planning to. Once you have chosen your breed, and if it happens to be one of these that need added maturity to be successful on the show bench, what happens to that early neutered kitten that was sold as a pet but turns out to have fantastic show potential and the owners would love to show him. By your own volition you would have prevented him from ever reaching his true potential and competing with the "big boys".


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Whooaaa back at you - where did I mention my breed, jowels or the like   I just asked about studies on long term affects. You have waded into this debate all guns blazing firing out accusations left right and centre
> 
> You also seem to have contradicted yourself. You say you have seen no detrimental affects then admit that it does affect the overall development of the cat, albeit only for show purposes.
> 
> From what I have read, you don't breed pedigrees yet but are planning to. Once you have chosen your breed, and if it happens to be one of these that need added maturity to be successful on the show bench, what happens to that early neutered kitten that was sold as a pet but turns out to have fantastic show potential and the owners would love to show him. By your own volition you would have prevented him from ever reaching his true potential and competing with the "big boys".


you mentioned your black oriental 

the only overall development i have mentioned is the jowels - where on earth would that effect the cats health?   Just the looks!

As for breeding my own pedigree cats... i am years and years away from that.

As for the kitten if i had sold him as a pet, then a pet he would stay. Surely every breeder must occasionally recieve pictures of their kittens and think... damn what a looker... you take it on the chin. People who buy a pet quality kitten arent expecting or planning on taking their cat to shows.

So nooo, no contradtictions. And no, not all guns blazing, just sticking to the facts based on scientific studies. Not anecdotal rumours, but hard facts.

I give my opinion based not only on the studies but also from my field in rescue, and my personal experiences with early neutering.

If you could furnish me with some studies, like i asked at the beginning which showed any negative health effects from early neutering i would be very very interested.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

apologies saikou it was the other lady who posted the pic of the oriental... my mistake


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> you mentioned your black oriental


I suggest you re read back, I think you will find that I didn't!!!!!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

i sugest you read back too

i have already apologised for my mistaken identity.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

This is what gets me.......its ok for show people to keep the cats sexual organs for LOOKS alone........but its not ok for anyone else? Some people don't like the thought of their baby kitten having bits taken out so young. I certainly don't.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> This is what gets me.......its ok for show people to keep the cats sexual organs for LOOKS alone........but its not ok for anyone else? Some people don't like the thought of their baby kitten having bits taken out so young. I certainly don't.


but your baby kitten is still a baby kitten at 6mo

it is not a mature adult cat

if your baby kitten was actually healthier, recovered quickly and had no other long term health effects compared to being neutered at 7mo.... then why not?

Oh and yes... it may be sexually mature at that age, others may not... so you would still be neutering an immature kitten who had not reached sexual maturity.

i fail to see the difference, other than the positive benefits for the majority of pet kittens.

For the show people.... i wish the rules would change, and that judges favoured the early neutered boys with their more immature looks, but until that happens then those in the show world are unlikely to change their policies.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

i wont bother posting on this thread again it is going nowhere, unless someone can find some hard facts on the detrimental effects of early neutering i am still going to be a big supporter of it.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> but your baby kitten is still a baby kitten at 6mo
> 
> it is not a mature adult cat
> 
> ...


But i have already said, i know that 6 months is not ideal when condiering maturity.
But in my opinion its much better than 14 weeks or so.

There is a difference...........one is a baby the other is a teenager in cat years.

With regards to the showing thats what i meant in my first post to you when i said ''the show world has a lot to answer for''


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> the only overall development i have mentioned is the jowels - where on earth would that effect the cats health?   Just the looks!


That they know of! As it has already had a visual effect, who knows what other effects it has had on the animals development.



billyboysmammy said:


> So nooo, no contradtictions. And no, not all guns blazing, just sticking to the facts based on scientific studies. Not anecdotal rumours, but hard facts.
> 
> I give my opinion based not only on the studies but also from my field in rescue, and my personal experiences with early neutering.
> 
> If you could furnish me with some studies, like i asked at the beginning which showed any negative health effects from early neutering i would be very very interested.


All you need to do is google, plenty out there to read  Pros and cons, you just have obviously made up your own mind. For me there is not enough evidence to make the risk to the kitten outweigh the small risk of meeting a byb 

I think any breeder would be over the moon if they found a kitten they had sold as a pet turned out to be a wonderful show cat. Even more so if those owners then wanted to show them as well - a huge compliment.

I would just like to add, the purpose of these threads surely is to discuss the pros and cons, NOT to badger people into agreeing with you. As I have said there is plenty out there to read for both camps, each person has to make up their own mind on the subject as they are the ones that have to live with the consequences.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> But i have already said, i know that 6 months is not ideal when condiering maturity.
> But in my opinion its much better than 14 weeks or so.
> 
> There is a difference...........one is a baby the other is a teenager in cat years.
> ...


with regards to the show world having alot to answer for.... now that i completely and wholeheartedly agree with you on x


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Saikou said:


> That they know of! As it has already had a visual effect, who knows what other effects it has had on the animals development.
> 
> All you need to do is google, plenty out there to read  Pros and cons, you just have obviously made up your own mind. For me there is not enough evidence to make the risk to the kitten outweigh the small risk of meeting a byb
> 
> I think any breeder would be over the moon if they found a kitten they had sold as a pet turned out to be a wonderful show cat. Even more so if those owners then wanted to show them as well - a huge compliment.


i have googled 

not one scientific study has shown any adverse effects. The longest running has been going for 9 years now with 6monthly follow ups on development and health.

The average kitten on the street does not come from a caring breeder who has their cats best interests at heart. They are nearly all from unplanned matings because flossy got it on with the local alleycat. Early neutering would prevent so many of these cats and kittens.

Early neutering would have prevented me being broken hearted time and time again when a queen loses a litter or dies because she is too young. It would prevent a huge amount of suffering.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

So in effect this would ''sort'' out the problems of pedigree cats having unplanned matings.

But what about the Moggies? I can't see all moggie breeders doing this!

So it wouldn't help a lot of the rescue crisis's......sadly


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> i have googled
> 
> not one scientific study has shown any adverse effects. The longest running has been going for 9 years now with 6monthly follow ups on development and health.
> 
> ...


I understand the arguments for feral or unwanted moggies ie careful population control - but the discussion on here was mainly around the early neutering of pedigrees from 'caring' breeders. The same arguments don't apply in that instance.


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> with all due respcet saikou your breed is not exactly the large headed jowelly type. Not when compared to the BSH, Exotic, etc.


Absolutley, but you originally said that male neutered have to be jowelly, and that's why I added that not all breeds do! I neutered my boy at the age I considered best for his health, with no thought to any effect this might have on any show career - nothing should come before health, I think we can all agree.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

We are never going to agree on this

But of course it applys....

Flossy doesnt have to be a moggie... she just has to be a very young cat in her first call escaping from her new owners home. Everyone with an unneutered cat will tell you how insistant and clever they are. Those experienced in it will never have a problem, but for the average owner... it happens all the time.

How often are there threads like this on the forum? hundreds! Often the poor girls get out again after the first litter too, because there wasnt enough time between weaning and calling for the owner to get them speyed.

Who is responsible? You bred the mother, you homed her without being speyed, and the owner let her out. OK so the owner should now be responsible for being a prize plonker, but.... a cat you bred is responsible for adding to the unplanned kitten population. She could be suffering, she could be far far to young, she could die.

It happens!

3 of the 4 cats i have here are rescued pedigrees, who came in scared, young and pregnant. I even have the papers and pink slips for two of them! Oh and the breeders didnt want to know!!! They were of the opinion that it wasnt their fault. Well if a cat of mine was in danger like that... then i would sure as hell want to know! The other... well she did have papers etc, but the owner was to embarrassed to go back to the breeder to tel them what had happened. Eventually i tracked down the breeder and we are now good friends. She decided her baby girl could continue to live with me as she was so happy here, but she funded all her and her babies vet bills through the rescue.

I have a foster girl upstairs who is a pedigree 7mo and severely underweight with a litter of 5 babies. wrong wrong wrong wrong. 

As for the rescue population. Well that is the area i am involved in. I would prefer it if all of our kittens were neutered before going to their new homes, and i know some rescues do do this, unfortunatly we dont have the funds to do it for every case yet, but it is something that we are trying to do.

I agree most moggie owners wont even think about it, but when the rescues get their pregnant cats, then they have the opportunity of doing it before they are homed.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

As has already been said probably everyone can come up with "but what if" x, y and z happens. ANYTHING is possible, as I have said its each individual breeders responsibity to weigh up the risk of one of those what ifs against the risk to the kitten and long term effects on the cat.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Saikou said:


> As has already been said probably everyone can come up with "but what if" x, y and z happens. ANYTHING is possible, as I have said its each individual breeders responsibity to weigh up the risk of one of those what ifs against the risk to the kitten and long term effects on the cat.


and i am still asking

what extra risks to the kitten?

still havent been supplied or found any real facts yet? plenty of anecdotal rumoured, opinions, but no facts.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Obvious risks, GA at a young age - there is a risk with any GA you wouldn't have to sign a consent form otherwise - not anecdotal - FACT!!! The op is done at a time when the kittens immune system is already under assault from vaccination and moving to a new home - again those stresses are FACT

You have no way of knowing what effect those stresses have on an individual kitten - and neither does any study!! FACT I know of a number of breeders who have lost kittens suddenly after first vaccs because their bodies could not cope with the 5 in 1 vaccine!!! I am sure you wouldn't find that in any studies either!!!

This is a pointless conversation really, you have no wish to change your mind which is your prerogative as is mine not to change mine.


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

I absolutely see where you are coming from, especially in regards to rescue cats. 

Its unfortunate that there are many ways a cat, or any animal, can be abused once in their new homes. Yes abuse by over breeding a cat is one possibility, but then so are physical and emotional mistreatment - to name but two more. Just because you have eliminated one potential abuse surely does not mean that you would be less diligent in the screening potential owners for the others - so does it really change any of the things you would do? Surely you are still in the same boat at the end of the day - trying to pick loving and responsible owner? I agree that, for breeders, stating on your website that kittens will go out neutered may stop the initial byb from making enquiries, but for those that still want a kitten you would still be having to apply the same questions, possible checks and instincts in making sure you are selling to the best homes possible. So why not forgo the neutering and rely upon those methods to make sure you find decent people who are going to be responsible to that cat in all areas of welfare, not just pregnancy? 

Maybe it is about time people needed a license to have animals and have them micro chipped - maybe we need to add more accountability for those who mistreat cats and something to act as a deterrent to those who are less than sincere?


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> still havent been supplied or found any real facts yet? plenty of anecdotal rumoured, opinions, but no facts.


I think sometimes when those 'anecdotal rumors' start they are sometimes a better indication of what is really going on that the 'official' things that are written. To me I can never understand why people are reluctant to believe what those with real experience of a situation have to say. As I said before there have been some breeders who feel the stress of the procedure bought about FIP in their kittens - it might not be true, but it's still something I'd want to ask about if I were considering it. As one individual who runs a feral center in the USA said (and she is pro early neutering in regards to shelter kittens)

"I think some of it stems from vets saying "Hey, we haven't had any problems
so far." But since they often aren't the vet who sees the kitten if
it falls ill, or the kitten doesn't see any vet at all (kitten dies,
but caretakers merely stews and complains to others and never
notifies the shelter or the vet) I do not believe the feedback
system is very good."


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> 3 of the 4 cats i have here are rescued pedigrees, who came in scared, young and pregnant. I even have the papers and pink slips for two of them! Oh and the breeders didnt want to know!!! They were of the opinion that it wasnt their fault. Well if a cat of mine was in danger like that... then i would sure as hell want to know! The other... well she did have papers etc, but the owner was to embarrassed to go back to the breeder to tel them what had happened. Eventually i tracked down the breeder and we are now good friends. She decided her baby girl could continue to live with me as she was so happy here, but she funded all her and her babies vet bills through the rescue.


A salutary tale of three breeders, one well worthy of the name and two who deserve to be slung out of their clubs 

Liz


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Otterwhiskers said:


> You said your own vet wouldn't do the procedure - did they explain to you their reasons why?


Alot just have no experience spaying something so small. They may not also have done any research on the operation at that age so feel more comfortable with the traditional 6 months!
It has been going on in rescues especially in America and by breeders over there awhile so considered more normal there I think, but give it time I am sure more will become familiar with it. My vet said to me the reason alot arent happey doing it is because they just dont have the experience!


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Thanks :thumbup:


its not a compliment ... I just could not be bothered with the pointless conversation anymore


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> having just read the rest of this thread,
> 
> wow am shocked at such an argument!
> 
> ...


well I have read your thread and have to say I agree with the fact there is no evidence of health problems. As for stress on the immune system as someone else said one breeder I know has said they recover better being with mum and litter mates in a familar environment so less stress. So whilst the surgery may provide extra stress to the body it generally does not stress the kittens out and they go about things as normal, they recover quicker aswell, thats her opinion so I can see where she is coming from. 

As for hypoallergenic qualities of my breed I would say for you to go and speak to the many allergic pet owners who can now happily own a cat and see what they say. I know a breeder who has over 15 of them and lives happily also with her husband having cat allergies. They were breeding other breeds for many years with reactions,of which he did not become tolerant of so the fact that someone who previously said by tolerating cats for long enough may mean a reduction in allergies is not true in all cases, but no such reaction with these cats!! so you can say what you think ofcourse but I dont think breeders or allergy sufferers will agree with you at all in fact they as I do may find it very insulting dont knock something you are not familar with!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Clare Ferris said:


> As for hypoallergenic qualities of my breed I would say for you to go and speak to the many allergic pet owners who can now happily own a cat and see what they say. I know a breeder who has over 15 of them and lives happily also with her husband having cat allergies. They were breeding other breeds for many years with reactions,of which he did not become tolerant of so the fact that someone who previously said by tolerating cats for long enough may mean a reduction in allergies is not true in all cases, but no such reaction with these cats!! so you can say what you think ofcourse but I dont think breeders or allergy sufferers will agree with you at all in fact they as I do may find it very insulting dont knock something you are not familar with!


i can door knock as much as i like

I have a son with severe allergies, a father with severe dog and cat allergies, i am a veterinary nurse and one of the breeds i own is often touted to be hypoallergenic!

Allergies in humans differ

saliva
dander
hair
undercoat
skin oils

even a cats earwax or the secretions around their claws can cause a reaction.

Without question there will be people who do not react to one form or another. Perhaps your breed has less dander, perhaps it sheds less, perhaps the oils on the skin are more tolerable.... however for the person who is allergic to something different... then the allergy will still be there!

My father can tolerate a few dog breeds, chihuahuas, whippets, cresties... but not others. why? i dont know without testing exactly the substances which cause his allergies. However its safe to say that those breeds obviously produce less of the "compound" he is allergic to. Funnily he cannot tolerate those breeds often perported to be hypoallergenic - the non shedding terriers, poodles and bichons.

My cornish girl is of a breed often touted to be hypoallergenic as they dont have the guard hairs which often cause allergies. However for the person allergic to saliva its scant compensation.

Siberians are purportedly missing a protein from their saliva which would help the dander and saliva allergies. This however has never been tested to my knowledge! Its again, all hearsay! It would make no difference to the person allergic to the fur, undercoat or skin oils!

So you see

any animal will only be hypoallergenic to a person providing they are lacking in that persons specific allergy trigger. You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT ever pretend that your breed as a whole is hypoallergenic.

Doing so, supplying this person with a kitten and someone having a severe reaction (e.g. ending up in hospitalisation) could land you in some very very hot water.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I just could not be bothered with the pointless conversation anymore


 and yet you still felt the need to reply


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Ive enjoyed reading the various viewpoints on this thread and it has spurred me on to finally register and post instead of just lurking and reading. Im not a breeder and I dont show my cats, Im just a good, caring and very responsible owner.

I really dont want to buy a kitten from someone who doesnt trust me enough to take me at my word when I say I dont want to breed. I welcome with open arms any and all forms of vetting a breeder wishes to expose me to. Do they want to visit my home, they can - phone my vet for references, be my guest - get the details of previous breeders whose kittens have become mine - theyre welcome to them. I dont however want to play a part in having a kitten neutered at such a young age for reasons that appear to me to be of far more benefit to the breeders than to the kittens. In fact, I am hard pushed to find a single reason why early neutering would be _beneficial_ to a young kitten.

12 weeks old (or 14 weeks or whatever age certain breeders are advocating) is for me personally way too young. This is already such a traumatic time in a kittens life (immunizations, separation from mother and siblings, moving to a new home) that I just think the GA and the whole upheaval of the operation is something that can be better left until the kitten is stronger, has a better developed immune system and is safely ensconced in his/her forever home. Ive had experience of foster cats of mine getting infections after a neuter, and Im sure all other factors being equal that a 6 or 8 month old cat is in a far better position to fight a post op infection than a 12 week old kitten is.

I think at some point this will become a question of supply and demand if people are happy to buy early neuter kittens the practice will continue and probably become more widespread (like it has in the states). However, if potential new owners who have similar opinions to me refuse to buy from breeders who practice early neutering then surely it wont ever become the norm. Im hoping that people like myself stick to breeders who are willing to go the extra mile while checking out my suitability as an owner, and if those breeders have the tiniest doubt that I am not a suitable owner then really, they shouldnt be sending their much loved kittens off to live with me.

I hasten to add, for the street cat/shelter cat population I think its a whole different matter and I can see the benefits of early neutering. Shelters generally dont have the resources to carry out thorough vetting of potential new owners and (at least where I come from) shelters generally arent anywhere near as selective in where their kittens go as good breeders are.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

hear hear TJE an unbiased voice of reason :thumbup1:


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Excellent post, Tje - I agree 100% with you!:thumbup1:


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

That is exactly my point of view on the matter, too!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Great post Tje!! I 100% agree. Thanks for posting that. x


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> i can door knock as much as i like
> 
> I have a son with severe allergies, a father with severe dog and cat allergies, i am a veterinary nurse and one of the breeds i own is often touted to be hypoallergenic!
> 
> ...


They are believed to have less of the FelD1 protein in their saliva that triggers allergies so as you say people who are allergic to this may often be fine. 
And this has been measured in comparison with other breeds and moggies so the part about less Fel D1 in the breed is true!! No kitten will ever be placed with a severe allergy sufferer and all owners with mild allergies are advised to spend time with the cats and kittens before adopting them. I dont say to people with allergies that they will be fine and I dont use this as a selling point it is merely something that has been reported in this breed, but it has nothing to do with why I got them or why many other non allergy sufferers have them. They choose to own them for the love of the breed and nothing else.
As for rex breeds and hairless breeds they are no use to someone who is allergic to saliva so they also cannot be marketed as hypoallergenic. From what I have read the above breeds including mine are mentioned in atricles on the subject in relation to being a possible solution for allergy sufferers and not a definitive answer to the problem.
But thanks for your post I was not aware people could be allergic to things like ear wax. But not having allergies myself or anyone in my family for that matter it is not a subject I have great knowledge on, all I know is the breed can be a possible solution for some owners, note the word 'possible' not definate!
Also what does 'hypoallergenic' mean? I thought it meant low allergic response. Not 'Non allergenic' which would mean no allergic response. No one is saying that they are non allergenic.


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## MichelleA (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't ,by any means know as much as most of the people involved in this thread but what I do know is that In november I had my cat spayed at 6 monthes and after a severe reaction to the anaethetic she lost 15% of her body weight in 2 days.Had she been any smaller she would have surely died.whilst I know this is very rare, nothing would induce me to have any future kittens "done"any sooner than 6 monthes


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

MichelleA said:


> I don't ,by any means know as much as most of the people involved in this thread but what I do know is that In november I had my cat spayed at 6 monthes and after a severe reaction to the anaethetic she lost 15% of her body weight in 2 days.Had she been any smaller she would have surely died.whilst I know this is very rare, nothing would induce me to have any future kittens "done"any sooner than 6 monthes


Thanks for posting that. And i hope your cat is ok now. xx

It might be rare but it still does happen so therefore its still a risk when it comes to early neutering. Obviously all neutering brings risks but the younger the animal the more likely they are to be more severe/dangerous.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Clare Ferris said:


> Hi
> I was just wondering how many breeders practice early neutering with their kittens before sale. It is commonly done in America but not so much over here.
> If anyone does do it would love to know your thoughts!


I have posted my original thread again just to remind people what it is meant to be about as I think it is just getting silly now and way of topic. I am asking for people with experience on the subject for information. 
Some who have posted on here have not offered their experience of the subject just how much they disapprove of it, this is not relevant to the intial question...If someone who disapproves of it because they have had experienced problems when carrying out early neutering wants to post then they are welcome. So can future posters please just stick to the thread in question, or maybe they could start a new thread on pro and cons of early neutering
Thanks


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

I see both sides of the story and for years I was of against early neutering - just the very concept. However no matter how hard you grill prospective kitten owners they will always tell you what they think you want to hear and anyone who knows us will tell you we do insist on a lot of contact with prospective kitten owners before we allow them to have one of our kittens. We also homecheck too!
Initially we didn't early neuter - just made sure they were expected to have them done by 6 months (it was in the contract too) and I usually rang them up around that time to either remind them or check to see if this had been done. But I did have one owner who didn't spay the girl until she was nearly 14 months old and I was tearing my hair out as I knew that girl was calling regularly. I knew that the people weren't planning on breeding from her but were just quite laid back and it was always oh it will be next month, and so on. I even offered to pay for it myself but that wasn't the issue with them. I eventually printed off a load of stuff about the dangers of the unspayed females calling and not mated etc. Within 2 weeks they had her spayed. But this made me think twice. Plus the fact I help with a rehome group for our breed and we have had quite a few girls sold as "pets" by trusting breeders to people who promised to have them neutered but who were then used as breeding girls (BYBs)and handed in to us in a pitiful state. These breeders thought the people they were selling to were on the level. Even the most experienced breeders can get taken in. It is also worth noting that a good 25% of the cats we get in for rehoming are unneutered (both sexes) and we are constantly having to fundraise to pay vet bills involved for neutering, etc. I would imagine this is a similar situation across all the breed rehoming groups.

So after many indepth conversations with other breeders and several long chats with our vet we have gone down the early neuter route. Touch wood we have not had any problems with any of the kittens neutered to date; their growth hasn't been stunted - several of our "kits" are in the 15lb-19lb range - which is about right for their build. They certainly recovered from their ops amazingly quickly.

I class myself as a caring responsible breeder and always have the welfare of my kittens at heart *totally*. I would not knowingly ever put any of my kittens health at risk. Obviously everybody has their own views but I don't think breeders who early neuter should be given a hard time for it because we believe we are doing the responsible thing; just as those who don't early neuter believe they are doing the right thing. It is a case of agree to disagree.

Tje - with the greatrest respect I don't see how you can say it is alright to early spay/neuter moggies (which are often done as young as 8-9 weeks) but not the pedigrees which would be done at 13-15 weeks as basically the principle is the same.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ChinaBlue said:


> I class myself as a caring responsible breeder and always have the welfare of my kittens at heart *totally*. I would not knowingly ever put any of my kittens health at risk. Obviously everybody has their own views but I don't think breeders who early neuter should be given a hard time for it because we believe we are doing the responsible thing; just as those who don't early neuter believe they are doing the right thing. It is a case of agree to disagree.


Quite, its all a matter of personal choice. Just as those that do early neuter don't wish to be given a hard time, neither should those that don't have to put with the implication that they are being irresponsible for not doing it.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I have posted my original thread again just to remind people what it is meant to be about as I think it is just getting silly now and way of topic. I am asking for people with experience on the subject for information.
> Some who have posted on here have not offered their experience of the subject just how much they disapprove of it, this is not relevant to the intial question...If someone who disapproves of it because they have had experienced problems when carrying out early neutering wants to post then they are welcome. So can future posters please just stick to the thread in question, or maybe they could start a new thread on pro and cons of early neutering
> Thanks


Maybe you could make it clearer in your next thread that you only want those who agree with you to post on your threads


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

ChinaBlue said:


> I see both sides of the story and for years I was of against early neutering - just the very concept. However no matter how hard you grill prospective kitten owners they will always tell you what they think you want to hear and anyone who knows us will tell you we do insist on a lot of contact with prospective kitten owners before we allow them to have one of our kittens. We also homecheck too!
> Initially we didn't early neuter - just made sure they were expected to have them done by 6 months (it was in the contract too) and I usually rang them up around that time to either remind them or check to see if this had been done. But I did have one owner who didn't spay the girl until she was nearly 14 months old and I was tearing my hair out as I knew that girl was calling regularly. I knew that the people weren't planning on breeding from her but were just quite laid back and it was always oh it will be next month, and so on. I even offered to pay for it myself but that wasn't the issue with them. I eventually printed off a load of stuff about the dangers of the unspayed females calling and not mated etc. Within 2 weeks they had her spayed. But this made me think twice. Plus the fact I help with a rehome group for our breed and we have had quite a few girls sold as "pets" by trusting breeders to people who promised to have them neutered but who were then used as breeding girls (BYBs)and handed in to us in a pitiful state. These breeders thought the people they were selling to were on the level. Even the most experienced breeders can get taken in. It is also worth noting that a good 25% of the cats we get in for rehoming are unneutered (both sexes) and we are constantly having to fundraise to pay vet bills involved for neutering, etc. I would imagine this is a similar situation across all the breed rehoming groups.
> 
> So after many indepth conversations with other breeders and several long chats with our vet we have gone down the early neuter route. Touch wood we have not had any problems with any of the kittens neutered to date; their growth hasn't been stunted - several of our "kits" are in the 15lb-19lb range - which is about right for their build. They certainly recovered from their ops amazingly quickly.
> ...


So you are basicaly saying that you have not noticed any differences in development of your kittens when early neutered compared to those that were done later? I assume you keep intouch with past owners? have they seen any problems with their kitties or their size, development etc, are they getting more health problems because of it?
What would you say is the general response from people enquiring about a kitten when you tell them they will be neutered before sale?
Im still 80/20 in favour of it but I just wonder what kitten owners say and if they are disgusted by the practice or welcome it. 
Have you had any problems with the little girls post op and is the healing time of 10 days for s/o the same with the young kittens?
Thanks for a reply that is on thread
I agree with you why should street cats be neutered early and not pedigrees? They are all cats just the same and one could argue that peds are brought up in a healthier environment and generally healthier than cats living rough who may be carrying contagious disease/illness therfore in a better state to cope with an anaesthetic and surgey!


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Maybe you could make it clearer in your next thread that you only want those who agree with you to post on your threads


The thread is asking for information from people who carry out early neutering and their experiences of it. The thread has gone of topic many times and turned into a debate about who agrees and who does not agree with it. I am all in favour of people not agreeing with it if they have had problems with it, hence they can back it up with reasons etc from personal experience.
It has got nothing to do with wanting people who agree with me only to post. I asked for info on the subject from people who have experience of it as I was looking into doing it myself for the same reasons others do it currently.
I am sorry you did not find the thread clear enough but when i read it I can see clearly what it is about

and no one is saying people who dont carry out early neutering are any less careing or responsible, but I do get the impression others who are against it try and imply breeders who do it are doing it for their own means and not for benefit to their cats, so are you not implying that these people dont care about their cats well being?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

If you are trying to make up your mind on the subject, then surely having points of views from all sides should be welcome.

You can not dictate to people what they post on a particular thread, nor dictate what you feel is relevant and what isn't!!!!


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> If you are trying to make up your mind on the subject, then surely having points of views from all sides should be welcome.
> 
> You can not dictate to people what they post on a particular thread, nor dictate what you feel is relevant and what isn't!!!!


As I said if people have info on good and bad experiences of early neutering that is relevant to the thread then great, but I feel just saying you agree/disagree with no experience of early neutering is causing things to get unpleasant. I am well aware people who dont like the idea wont be doing it so have no experience of it, just there opinions, we are all intitled to them, but I would like to hear actual experiences, otherwise it is getting silly.
I am not dictating anything, just merely pointing out what the thread is in relation too...breeders experiences (good or bad) of early neutering


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Then peoples opinions of why they wouldn't do it for x, y and z reasons is just as relevant  Just because they don't have practical experience of early neutering does not mean they do not have practical experience of something else that would make them not want to early neuter.

After 10 pages of debate, I do find it funny that you suddenly decide to take this tack after tje made a very good case against, which a number of people agreed with!!! Or is just that a coincidence


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Then peoples opinions of why they wouldn't do it for x, y and z reasons is just as relevant  Just because they don't have practical experience of early neutering does not mean they do not have practical experience of something else that would make them not want to early neuter.
> 
> After 10 pages of debate, I do find it funny that you suddenly decide to take this tack after tje made a very good case against, which a number of people agreed with!!! Or is just that a coincidence


I decided to repost the initial thread after reading posts over the last day or so and feel it is turning into a silly argument over who agrees and who does not. People are stating their personal feelings and I want facts thankyou, peoples opinions on personal feelings are not helping me and they are just that and everyone will never agree on all things, it has nothing to do with her post, she is one person who says she would not buy a kitten already altered, well thats upto her. If I came across people with that opinion then obviously they could not have one of mine.
Again it is personal feeling coming in the way of this thread creating arguments which I dont want to be part of hence why I asked for people to please stick the the original thread. otherwise I would have asked do you agree with early neutering?


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> So you are basicaly saying that you have not noticed any differences in development of your kittens when early neutered compared to those that were done later? I assume you keep intouch with past owners? have they seen any problems with their kitties or their size, development etc, are they getting more health problems because of it?
> What would you say is the general response from people enquiring about a kitten when you tell them they will be neutered before sale?
> Im still 80/20 in favour of it but I just wonder what kitten owners say and if they are disgusted by the practice or welcome it.
> Have you had any problems with the little girls post op and is the healing time of 10 days for s/o the same with the young kittens?
> ...


We have been early neutering for the last three years and to date there have no issues arising with any of those cats. I am fortunate to keep in touch all ALL of our kitten owners (some just do the Christmas card thing with photos - others more regular updates). We hold onto the boys for a week and the girls for 10 days and they go back to the vets for a final check up before going to their new homes.

All the kittens done to date have certainly grown as I would have expected - the first girl I had done 3 years ago is around 13lb according to her owner which is quite respectable and the oldest boy neutered is around 16lb; we have a boy from 2 years ago who is 18lb (different lines). Another kitten who went to a friend 2 years ago and whom we did not neuter - she had done at 6 months is 19lb so I cannot see there is a huge difference in the growth. None of the kitten owners with the early neuters have mentioned any problems with UTIs or similar; I have asked them to contact me if they do as I obviously want to keep track of the situation.

I would say that a fair number of Ragdoll breeders are choosing this route now, who previously hadn't considered it, as there has been an absolute explosion of BYBs in the last 3-4 years - particularly in the North West and Scotland.

When we advertise the kittens they are done so as being neutered; so people wanting an unneutered kitten don't bother ringing! The kitten owners who have had the neutered kits have all expressed relief at not having to have this done themselves later on. Quite a few will ask why we are doing it and I explain our reasons; if they were unhappy with those (to date this *hasn't* happened) I would be more than happy to give the name of breeder friends who don't practice early neutering.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

ChinaBlue said:


> Obviously everybody has their own views but I don't think breeders who early neuter should be given a hard time for it because we believe we are doing the responsible thing; just as those who don't early neuter believe they are doing the right thing. It is a case of agree to disagree.
> 
> Tje - with the greatrest respect I don't see how you can say it is alright to early spay/neuter moggies (which are often done as young as 8-9 weeks) but not the pedigrees which would be done at 13-15 weeks as basically the principle is the same.


ChinaBlue, in response to these two points you raised: where I come (where I live) the street cat population is a massive problem. Moggies are seen as expendable, many people dont get them neutered. Shelter contracts arent worth the paper they are written on. The street cat population is increasing year on year at an alarming rate. Would early neutering of these cats be my ideal solution? No it wouldnt. I would rather another solution was available, it isnt. The stray cat colonies are increasing so much in numbers that the local council just round them up, keep them for a day or two (if they have enough space to keep them even that long) then put them down. The shelters simply dont have the time and or resources to screen in a more in-depth manner than they do at the moment. Early neutering of feral and shelter cats is the lesser of two evils as this is a drastic problem so drastic measures are called for.

Whereas (again, here, where I live) purebred cats going on to be bought by BYB and treated in hideous manners is not a massive problem, in fact its quite an insignificant problem. Im not saying it doesnt exist, but most breeders get around it with going that extra mile in their vetting. Your mileage may vary, but here BYBs are not that big a problem, its practically unheard of, but still many breeders want to early neuter to protect their lines. So I dont support it as the problem it is purported to solve, isnt that big a problem.

Where a big problem with a big risk is present I am a supporter of drastic invasive procedures, where little or risk is present my approach is less drastic.

A bit like with humans really. I have a friend who carries the breast cancer gene, she has a very high risk of contracting breast cancer as her mother, grandmother, two aunts and a sister all had it, and she herself has the gene that could traigger it at any moment. She opted for a preventative double mastectomy. I support that decision as she is in a real high risk category. I wouldnt however advocate that every woman should have a double mastectomy just so they can avoid the relatively small risk of breast cancer that is present in the general population. I would only advocate it where the risk is high. I take a similar approach with cats. 
Big risk = more open to drastic procedures and practices
small risk = less open to drastic proedures and practices

And I dont think I ever advocated giving breeders who practiced early neutering a hard time. All I said was I didnt approve of it and I would avoid purchasing a cat from them, and I would tell them my reasons why. And I would hope that everyone else with the same opinion had the same courage of their convictions, as at the end of the day its a question of supply and demand and if breeders are left with litters of kittens they cant sell because they are early neutered then obviously the market will dictate that this practice will either cease to exist completely or remain a niche market.

I dont support kittens or puppies being sold in pet shops; I boycott those pet shops as I dont agree with their practices. I wouldnt buy as much as a tin of cat food from such a pet shop, I take my business elsewhere. I dont however smash their windows or slash their car tyres. So I really dont know where youre getting the giving breeders a hard time bit. What do you suggest I do when I come across a breeder whose practices in animal rearing I dont support? Should I just turn a blind eye and buy regardless? Or should I stick to my guns and only buy from people I consider responsible breeders and whose practices I support? If I told a breeder I planned to let their gorgeous kitten roam free in the streets (because I might - mistakenly - believe that is in the cat's best interest), he or she most likely wouldnt sell to me, that is their prerogative as a sellers, and I wholeheartedly support their right to only sell to those they deem good enough. It is also my prerogative as a buyer to say I wont buy from breeders who practice early neutering. In fact, I would go as to say its a moral obligation.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MichelleA said:


> I don't ,by any means know as much as most of the people involved in this thread but what I do know is that In november I had my cat spayed at 6 monthes and after a severe reaction to the anaethetic she lost 15% of her body weight in 2 days.Had she been any smaller she would have surely died.whilst I know this is very rare, nothing would induce me to have any future kittens "done"any sooner than 6 monthes


I have similar experience with a young 6 month old perfectly fit female foster cat, although she was a cat that was quite prone to stress, but nothing too out of the ordinary. She went off to be neutered and came back with lack of appetite. Initially we werent that worried as she had no fever or anything like that. As they days went on her lack of appetite turned into to a total refusal to eat, in fact she became anorexic, and the weight literally fell off her. She was then diagnosed with Feline Hepatic Lipidosis. (I think its also known as fatty liver syndrome? not 100% sure). I am no expert, but according to the vet the onset of this disease is usually related to (or triggered by) some traumatic event in the cats life. He said they often see cases of FHL after a cat has been staying in a cattery while the owners are on holiday or some situation like that deemed stressful to the cat. Anyway, despite being admitted the vet hospital for 24-7 care and tube feeding, this little lady didnt make it and died in the vet hospital. It was very sad. From the neuter till her death I think was only a matter of 5 weeks, 6 at most. Although she ultimately didnt make it, I still think her age gave her more of a fighting chance than had she been 12 weeks old. It's also made me sway in the other direction and where possible wait till cats are even older than 6 months.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> I have posted my original thread again just to remind people what it is meant to be about as I think it is just getting silly now and way of topic. I am asking for people with experience on the subject for information.
> Some who have posted on here have not offered their experience of the subject just how much they disapprove of it, this is not relevant to the intial question...If someone who disapproves of it because they have had experienced problems when carrying out early neutering wants to post then they are welcome. So can future posters please just stick to the thread in question, or maybe they could start a new thread on pro and cons of early neutering
> Thanks


Clare, I dont think this has actually gone off topic at all. It started about early neutering and on the whole it has remained about early neutering. By internet forum standards, it has remained amazingly *on*-topic.

If I post a question about can anyone who has smoked 2 packs per day for 40 years tell me their experiences on how smoking has affected their health  I may get a few responses from hardened smokers, but I am also very likely to get many more responses from people who opted not to smoke because they knew the risks of smoking or lost family members due to smoking related illnesses. Because someone doesnt smoke does mean they are not qualified to have an educated opinion on why smoking is bad idea healthwise. Some people choose not to smoke as they are well versed in the risks involved. In the same way some people choose not to early neuter as they are well versed in the risks involved and have alternative ways to ensure they kittens dont go to BYBs. _*Just because they dont practice it does not mean that they dont have a valid opinion.*_

When you start a topic like this you cant dictate what slant the thread will take. In this instance, granted, more people seem to be anti than pro early neutering. But that is the nature of the beast when you ask questions on public forums, you get all points of view, even those youd rather not hear.

Sorry, but I don't think it's your job to judge relevance. Isnt that what forum moderators are for? To judge what is and isnt allowed? I have enjoyed reading all the posts, pro and con, and I consider them all relevant to the matter at hand.

Its a bit like those courtroom dramas, where the defense lawyer shouts out irrelevant your honour when the prosecution witness is talking , but its ultimately the judge who decides what is and isnt relevant, not the lawyers, because the lawyers have vested interests and the judge is impartial.

I think it would be in the best interest of open debate if you left the moderating of this thread to the moderators, that is after all their job, not yours.


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## Mochali (Sep 29, 2008)

Otterwhiskers said:


> You said your own vet wouldn't do the procedure - did they explain to you their reasons why?


He said that it would affect the urethra, if I remember rightly...I will ask him again when i am there next ?


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

At the end of the day you can produce _nth_ number of articles in favour of neutering at six months and an equal number for early neutering. There will be kittens neutered at six months who will sadly have problems as there will be kittens early neutered the same - the vast majority of each will no doubt be fine.

We could debate on and on but basically we each have to balance all of the circumstances and do what we each feel best for our kittens.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> People are stating their personal feelings and I want facts thankyou, peoples opinions on personal feelings are not helping me and they are just that and everyone will never agree on all things, it has nothing to do with her post, she is one person who says she would not buy a kitten already altered, well thats upto her. If I came across people with that opinion then obviously they could not have one of mine.


I think Tje has said it perfectly -



> * Just because they dont practice it does not mean that they dont have a valid opinion. *


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I have posted my original thread again just to remind people what it is meant to be about as I think it is just getting silly now and way of topic. I am asking for people with experience on the subject for information.
> Some who have posted on here have not offered their experience of the subject just how much they disapprove of it, this is not relevant to the intial question...If someone who disapproves of it because they have had experienced problems when carrying out early neutering wants to post then they are welcome. So can future posters please just stick to the thread in question, or maybe they could start a new thread on pro and cons of early neutering
> Thanks


Your yourself have no experience of early neutering but are seeming to continue to post your views on the subject throughout this thread just fine!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I have read a few posts so thought I would put my two cents in as a future pedigree cat owner. When I do start looking in a few years and a breeder has early spayed and neutered their kittens it'll put my mind at rest. After Soda's scare this week (might not have been a big thing in all but it was to me) when she was spayed it diffently put me on pins and needles.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

once again I asked for peoples experiences of early neutering, not what people think might happen. Post op infections can occur with any animal at any age just as can any post op problem. Yes I have no experience of early neutering well aprt from one when one of the vets did it with his cat as she was having surgery so he spayed her at the same time, when I asked him how she was doing he said she was fine and had no problems. He is the one who may be willing to do it for me. Thats is why I wanted to know the experiences of other people who have done it to see if they had any problems and I hope they would be open enough to tell them. I know it is not upto me to dictate what people post and whilst it may be about early neutering I was more hoping for peoples experiences on it not a slanging match!
I do appreciate everyone opinions especially from pet owners as they are after all the people buying the cat, it is no good protecting the cat from byb and then not being able to sell them so it is interesting to know what pet owners think aswell!
I would wonder though if someone wanted the cat unspayed their reasons for it, could they have other intentions down the line, you just dont know?
As for the example of smoking I fail to see how you can compare the two, there is proof that this damages health but none as yet to say early neutering does? unless anyone can find some hard evidence to prove otherwise that is, I would be very interested to see that!
I have been involved in hundreds of cat neuterings and been there taking the stitches out of some and nearly all of them have been fine with no problems. Infact the only cats I can think of that had a reaction or swellings along op site where those that did not have their collars on so you could argue that the cats interfering with the wound aggravated the problem? I also see cats coming in for pregnant spay at 6 months because they were allowed out or escaped or coming in after a litter of kittens at a very young age. These being rescue cats that should not have been allowed out in the first place.

So once again is there anyone out there who can share their experiences of early neutering...please good or bad!!!

I think china blue comes from a similar area to me, there are alot of byb's in my area which is worrying


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I have read a few posts so thought I would put my two cents in as a future pedigree cat owner. When I do start looking in a few years and a breeder has early spayed and neutered their kittens it'll put my mind at rest. After Soda's scare this week (might not have been a big thing in all but it was to me) when she was spayed it diffently put me on pins and needles.


Well thats nice to know! so you think it takes the worry off pet owners later on? would you say that owners who worry about the procedure put it off or might never do it?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Hey hang on, by your own "instructions" for the thread, you can not discuss things further with Miss PuddyCat as she has no experience of early neutering. Or is it only because she happens to agree with you, so therefore she is permitted to have a voice!!!  Or are we getting down to the real reason. It has nothing to do with practical experience you only want people who agree with you to post - Good luck with that one


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Clare Ferris said:


> Well thats nice to know! so you think it takes the worry off pet owners later on? would you say that owners who worry about the procedure put it off or might never do it?


I think other posters on here have stated that it does take off the worry for their kittens owners and it would for me as well. I think it is one of the contributing facters as to way people put it off or dont get it done 

Even if the breeder didnt have their kitten spayed or neutured at a young age I would still have one of their kittens if I was happy with everything else, but it would take the worry off if it was done.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Even if the breeder didnt have their kitten spayed or neutured at a young age I would still have one of their kittens if I was happy with everything else, but it would take the worry off if it was done.


Even if you found that your early neutered kitten ended up with problems when he/she was older - like an increased chance of UTIs in a male?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Tje said:


> I have similar experience with a young 6 month old perfectly fit female foster cat, although she was a cat that was quite prone to stress, but nothing too out of the ordinary. She went off to be neutered and came back with lack of appetite. Initially we werent that worried as she had no fever or anything like that. As they days went on her lack of appetite turned into to a total refusal to eat, in fact she became anorexic, and the weight literally fell off her. She was then diagnosed with Feline Hepatic Lipidosis. (I think its also known as fatty liver syndrome? not 100% sure). I am no expert, but according to the vet the onset of this disease is usually related to (or triggered by) some traumatic event in the cats life. He said they often see cases of FHL after a cat has been staying in a cattery while the owners are on holiday or some situation like that deemed stressful to the cat. Anyway, despite being admitted the vet hospital for 24-7 care and tube feeding, this little lady didnt make it and died in the vet hospital. It was very sad. From the neuter till her death I think was only a matter of 5 weeks, 6 at most. Although she ultimately didnt make it, I still think her age gave her more of a fighting chance than had she been 12 weeks old. It's also made me sway in the other direction and where possible wait till cats are even older than 6 months.


Sorry to hear about this cat, stress can be a major contributer affecting the healing process and development of other illnesses, hepatic lipidosis is often brought about by long periods of inappetance or extreme dieting in a cat as you are probably aware. Pain can also result in lack of appetite or maybe she had a post op infection. I see your point about age helping them cope better with an anaesthetic but I suppose you have to look at the overall health of a cat. I suspect this cat may have had issues with any stressful situation regardless of age? You say she was a foster cat so was she a stray originally? there may have been underlying issues like FeLv or FIV which can stay hidden in the back ground until stress is put on the immune system.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> I do appreciate everyone opinions especially from pet owners as they are after all the people buying the cat, it is no good protecting the cat from byb and then not being able to sell them so it is interesting to know what pet owners think aswell!
> 
> As for the example of smoking I fail to see how you can compare the two, there is proof that this damages health but none as yet to say early neutering does? unless anyone can find some hard evidence to prove otherwise that is, I would be very interested to see that!


Clare, I wasnt comparing the risks of smoking with the risks or early neuter, I was demonstrating a point that you dont need to do something to be able to have a valid opinion on it.

And the reason I said that is because at that point in the discussion you stated quite clearly that you only wanted to hear from people who had actually had a kitten neutered at a young age. You didnt want to hear from those of us who decided against it, however qualified we were, however much research wed put into the subject, you specifically asked that we refrain from posting further comments as to the pros and cons of it as we didnt have the real hands-on knowledge that you were looking for. You actually went as far as to suggest we start a whole new pros & cons thread because our points of view didn't fit into the narrow parameters you wished your thread to have.

Now youre changing the boundaries again and saying you did/do want to hear all opinions.

You seem to do that quite a lot change your opinion depending on how the current wind is blowing.

whatever !


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Hey hang on, by your own "instructions" for the thread, you can not discuss things further with Miss PuddyCat as she has no experience of early neutering. Or is it only because she happens to agree with you, so therefore she is permitted to have a voice!!!  Or are we getting down to the real reason. It has nothing to do with practical experience you only want people who agree with you to post - Good luck with that one


I knew you would say that I have also replied in relation to the other posters comment tje is it? aswell even though she is against it as a pet owner, I have still taken it on board after all they are the people buying my cats! So it is good to know what potential owners think although yes she has no experience of it. I think she is basing her decision on the fact she has had problems with neutering in general?
You make a point about uti's in males can I ask why you think they are more likely to have problems? From what I have read the diameter of the urethra is the same in cats neutered at ny age and there have been studies on this so why would they be more likely to have a uti problem, just curious??


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's just me but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that did early spay/neuter. I would get mine done of course but at 6 months I just don't feel comfortable neutering/spaying such a young animal. I've heard the arguements for and against and I just wouldn't do it


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Even if you found that your early neutered kitten ended up with problems when he/she was older - like an increased chance of UTIs in a male?


I havent dived right into the whole subject or researched completly into. I based what I said on what my first thoughts were about the subject. But when the time comes in a few years to introduce a new family member I will research completely into the subject and way the pros and cons of early neutering and spaying then. I can see right now from what I have read on here some of the pros and cons for each side.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Tje said:


> Clare, I wasn't comparing the risks of smoking with the risks or early neuter, I was demonstrating a point that you don't need to "do" something to be able to have a valid opinion on it.
> 
> And the reason I said that is because at that point in the discussion you stated quite clearly that you only wanted to hear from people who had actually had a kitten neutered at a young age. You didn't want to hear from those of us who decided against it, however qualified we were, however much research we'd put into the subject, you specifically asked that we refrain from posting further comments as to the pros and cons of it as we didn't have the real hands-on knowledge that you were looking for. You actually went as far as to suggest we start a whole new pros & cons thread because our points of view didn't fit into the narrow parameters you wished your thread to have.
> 
> ...


I stated it because the postings are getting silly sometimes, I have taken your opinion on board as I dont want to come across rude by ignoring people hence why I have commented on peoples post even if they dont have experience first hand, but I dont want it to turn into a thread with a load of comments on personnal feelings. 
There have also been mentions of things that are no relation what so ever to the thread ie comments about my breed which I find offensive and these certainly are NOT welcome! If you can remember back to the first thread I am a breeder considering it with my kittens of which I have a litter due in a couple of months hopefully, I wanted to know if people had experience of it (particularly breeders) who could offer their take on it. You are a person considering the view point of a pet owner, fair enough also as they are the market most of the kittens will be going to, but there are also people who would find less stressfull if they got a cat altered from what I can see.
If the cat was already done then how does that make a difference to the pet owner if there are no long standing health problems from it being done?? or is it because you dont agree with the principal?
That is something I am interested in ...has anyone found there cat to sufferer health problems later on etc

well whatever right back at ya


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> It's just me but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that did early spay/neuter. I would get mine done of course but at 6 months I just don't feel comfortable neutering/spaying such a young animal. I've heard the arguements for and against and I just wouldn't do it


Well thanks for your opinion, taken on board what you have said as a pet owner even though you dont agree with it for whatever personal reasons


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> Sorry to hear about this cat, stress can be a major contributer affecting the healing process and development of other illnesses, hepatic lipidosis is often brought about by long periods of inappetance or extreme dieting in a cat as you are probably aware. Pain can also result in lack of appetite or maybe she had a post op infection. I see your point about age helping them cope better with an anaesthetic but I suppose you have to look at the overall health of a cat. I suspect this cat may have had issues with any stressful situation regardless of age? You say she was a foster cat so was she a stray originally? there may have been underlying issues like FeLv or FIV which can stay hidden in the back ground until stress is put on the immune system.


she was fiv negative and was vaccinated for FeLV and had no underlying heath problems at all (thats not just my personal opinion, that was the vets professional opinion). She was never a stray herself. Her mother (who was a stray) came to me heavily pregnant. The mother was neutered and released back on to the streets when shed weaned the kittens and I managed to home her 4 siblings. This little girl stayed with me longer basically because she wasnt the prettiest flower in the vase and moggies looking for homes are ten a penny in this part of the world, and the less beautiful ones are terribly hard to find a good home for, if not impossible. Her appetite was fantastic up until the neuter. She was always above average weight for her age  she was sterilized at 28 weeks and weighed 3.4 kilos. Her overall health was tiptop and she was lively playful and quietly confident. When I said she was more prone to stress, I meant in a relatively minor way - normally my kittens are outrageously outgoing, this lady was a bit more laid back and a little bit more prone to hide under the couch when a bunch of kids came to visit or the electric drill made an appearance, that kind of thing (not unusual in the offspring of street cats). The only stressful things she experienced in her short life was vaccinations and chipping (normal stress and totally forgotten about an hour later) and the neuter which was followed by a few days of low appetite which was immediately followed by complete anorexia and the Feline Hepatic Lipidosis which led to her death. Of course I will never know for sure if the neuter was the trigger, but the vet seemed pretty sure it was, even though he was the one who carried out the neuter. He (and his colleagues at the vet hospital) were pretty convinced the neuter was the trigger, as was the totally independent vet we consulted for a 2nd opinion. Apart from the neuter there had been no stressful happenings in her short life. Of course Ill never know for sure if she would have survived the operation at 8 or 9 months, but I do think she would have stood a far better chance, and I do think shed have stood no chance at all had we had her neutered at 12 or 14 weeks.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> I have also replied in relation to the other posters comment tje is it? aswell even though she is against it as a pet owner, I have still taken it on board after all they are the people buying my cats! So it is good to know what potential owners think although yes she has no experience of it. I think she is basing her decision on the fact she has had problems with neutering in general?


I absolutely *do not* have a problem with neutering in general. I would go as far as to say I am a massive advocate of neutering!

Please be careful when you make this kind of ungrounded assumption. You are *so* far off the mark!

I reached my current opinion by; 
-talking with many vets in the many different countries I have lived
-talking with (and working with) many different rescue organizations in many different countries
-having years and years of experience with rearing kittens 
-weighing up the risks of the early neutering versus the risk of potential backyard breeding
-speaking with breeders on both sides of the fence
-taking part in discussions like this one
-reading everything I can find on the matter
-thinking what the kitten would want if he/she could talk
-a general belief that as kittens grow older and approach maturity they are better able, both physically and mentally, to cope with trauma 
-a general belief that the 12 week mark is generally a very traumatic time for most kittens (vaccinations, chipping, seperation from mother and siblings, going to a new home) add to that the trauma of a major operation and a GA and I think it's adding unnecessary risks at an already risky period in their young lives
-a general belief that early neutering is more advantageous to the breeders than to their kittens, and the "I'm just doing it protect my kittens from BYBs" is used too often when breeders actualy (some, not all) do it to protect their breeding lines.
-no data is available about the long term effects early neuters may have. I don't want my cat to be a guinea pig only to find out 10 years from now that early neutering wasn't such a good idea after all.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Tje said:


> I absolutely *do not* have a problem with neutering in general. I would go as far as to say I am a massive advocate of neutering!
> 
> Please be careful when you make this kind of ungrounded assumption. You are *so* far off the mark!
> 
> ...


I meant you are against early neutering which is what the thread is about!
I want to do it to protect the kittens from future pregnancies wheter planned or not and byb as I have seen what can happen, as I said earlier these are rife in my area. As for protecting my lines it is an added bonus but not one that I would soley consider on its own. The reasons I am interested in doing it are to prevent my kittens ending up being bred from by unscrupulus breeders, I stupidly thought that by with holding papers till proof of neutering that alone would deter people but no such look if they are unregistered as people will by from these breeders so it makes no difference to them wheter the cat has papers or not, these days you can even forge them and as seen as most pet owners would not have a clue they would probably end up selling them at registered prices.
Your opinions like others are taken on board but I highly doubt any careing breeder would put their kittens through it just to protect their lines if they thought it did not benefit the kittens in some way.:nonod:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Personally i wouldnt say its the BYB's who are the problem... sorry but those should be weeded out in the vetting procedure.

Calling female cats are very very very crafty, look through the rest of this forum and see how many unplanned pregnancies there are (and more to come as we head back into kitten season in a couple of months).

"she got out the window"
"she slipped through the door when the kids came in"
"she slipped out when i was putting the bins out"
"she must have escaped as i was going out to work, i didnt see her but she is definatly pregnant"

blah blah blah....

Its makes no difference what breed the cat is, just about every female cat is the same when in call.

A female kitten can call as early as 4mo, although i am aware its more common between 6-12mo for the first. Still again look through this forum, how many people have very young kittens becoming parents themselves. Now remember... this forum tends to be populated with those who have a deep deep love for their animals. Its a very small skewed snapshot of the general population

Now most moggie "breeders" wont ever consider early neutering, few even consider proper vet checks, diet, flea and worming treatments. However a good pedigree breeder feels responsible for their cats for life. For me (when i begin breed rather than foster pregnant rescues) i feel that part of the responsibility is to ensure those kittens sold as pets remain so, and cannot be bred from intentionally or otherwise. 

It could easily be any of your babies who have slipped out the door, got pregnant at such a tender age, and is now suffering due to it. Pregnancy in such young cats is dangerous. As the breeder.... you are responsible.


As for the comment on UTI's .... THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS WHATSOEVER! I can completely understand peoples reasons and opinions when it comes to the potential stress on the immune system as its around the same time vaccinations take place, they are valid points, but there is no evidence at all about damage or problems with the uretha or bladder.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

If it is so difficult to keep a calling queen inside, how the hell do breeders manage it. They have families, young kids yet the vast majority manage to not let their calling queens or any other of their indoor cats out!!! I would say in reality the actual number of those pregnancies where the cat "escaped" is very small - most were deliberate let outs who did not want to be criticised. I am not saying mistakes don't happen, but the real mistakes v the deliberate let outs very small number!! Again of all those "escapees" how many of those are pedigrees, where the owner had been grilled and educated prior to purchase leaving home with a comprehensive contract that carefully details that the cat should not be bred from ??? Is that really a good enough reason to put a young kitten at risk ?? Not for me. Surely education is a far better tool in those circumstances.

As for the comment on UTIs, seeing as you are so fond of rudely shouting  - I SUGGEST YOU DO A BIT MORE RESEARCH - because it is a commonly held believe by vets THAT IT DOES!! If there is no evidence to support that in what ever study you have read, then I would suggest that study did not go far enough and monitor those early neutered cats into middle age. All those rescue kittens you have had early neutered with supposedly no ill effects - how old is the oldest of those and are you still in regular contact with the owner(s) knowing exactly what medical conditions that cat has developed. I think it would be hard for a pedigree breeder to maintain that kind of contact let alone someone who was merely fostering kittens for a rescue!

Its obviously been a tad quiet on the other board recently.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Personally i wouldnt say its the BYB's who are the problem... sorry but those should be weeded out in the vetting procedure.
> 
> Calling female cats are very very very crafty, look through the rest of this forum and see how many unplanned pregnancies there are (and more to come as we head back into kitten season in a couple of months).
> 
> ...


Yes I agree they should be an if people were honest about their intentions then they would stand no chance of getting one of mine for breeding, but people lie and decieve others and it can happen when you think they are going to a nice pet home and it turns out to be a kitten farm, see my previous thread on the chinchilla breeder for example, unless you can read minds as I have said previously then you have no way of knowing for sure. Your point is a valid one cats can be very persistent and what is a lovely home with a responsible owner does not mean accidents cant happen so by spaying already then you remove that risk, but also the risk of a indoor cat escaping on call and getting ran over in the process due to them having no road sense etc. All possibilities that some say may never happen but some just dont want to take that risk if there are ways of preventing it
so I dont get accused of replying only to posters in favour of it, can I ask your experience of early neutering, just so we stay on thread ofcourse ?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> If it is so difficult to keep a calling queen inside, how the hell do breeders manage it. They have families, young kids yet the vast majority manage to not let their calling queens or any other of their indoor cats out!!! I would say in reality the actual number of those pregnancies where the cat "escaped" is very small - most were deliberate let outs who did not want to be criticised. I am not saying mistakes don't happen, but the real mistakes v the deliberate let outs very small number!! Again of all those "escapees" how many of those are pedigrees, where the owner had been grilled and educated prior to purchase leaving home with a comprehensive contract that carefully details that the cat should not be bred from ??? Is that really a good enough reason to put a young kitten at risk ?? Not for me. Surely education is a far better tool in those circumstances.
> 
> As for the comment on UTIs, seeing as you are so fond of rudely shouting  - I SUGGEST YOU DO A BIT MORE RESEARCH - because it is a commonly held believe by vets THAT IT DOES!! If there is no evidence to support that in what ever study you have read, then I would suggest that study did not go far enough and monitor those early neutered cats into middle age. All those rescue kittens you have had early neutered with supposedly no ill effects - how old is the oldest of those and are you still in regular contact with the owner(s) knowing exactly what medical conditions that cat has developed. I think it would be hard for a pedigree breeder to maintain that kind of contact let alone someone who was merely fostering kittens for a rescue!
> 
> Its obviously been a tad quiet on the other board recently.


Sorry couldn't help but asking why you think it is a commonly held belief by vets that uti's are more common? what in realation to early neutered cats.??? I certainly have never heard that.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I certainly have never heard that.


 Oh well it can't be true then


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Although I have never mentioned the risks of UTIs in this thread, the problem with early neutering is the lack of proper controlled studies on the longterm effects it could have on the animals. Any study has to encompass certain criteria to be classed as proper controlled scientific study. Sadly there just isnt sufficient data as yet available on the longterm effects of early neutering. 

I really would like to embrace early neutering for shelter cats and trap/neuter/release cats in the part of the world I live (because it really is a DIRE situation here). So would the vets at the shelter. They are put off, not by the fact that they dont want to embrace new procedures, no, in fact one of the shelter vets is American and has carried out countless early neuters) they are put off by the obvious risks posed at an already traumatic life stage and by the lack of proper scientific data on the long-term effects of early neutering. 

Correct me please if I am wrong. But the data available is as much for it as against it. As far as I am aware (what I have been told by various vets in at least 3 different countries) there have been no proper studies carried out anywhere on the long term effects. By proper studies I mean studies that meet the proper scientific criteria for them to be classed official and trustworthy. 

But I am more than willing to stand corrected. If anyone has access to study data detailing the longterm health effects, then please share it. 

As with many new drugs or new medical procedures where controlled long term trials havent been carried out, time is needed to become aware of any long term risks. I really just dont want a cat of mine to fall into the guinea-pig category of suck it and see, certainly because I am a good caring and very responsible owner who would never dream of breeding from my cats and the chance of my cat escaping out an open window and accidentally getting pregnant is about as remote as me winning the lottery next week.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> see my previous thread on the chinchilla breeder for example,


Your one anecdotal piece of evidence for early neutering really isn't a good one. For a start just because the owner had entire cats running together, does not necessarily make that home a kitten farm, just screams ignorance to me. If the nature of the kittens condition had been truely explained, I fail to see any byb wanting to take the risk of paying for a cat who may never be able to breed or could die during birth. However, more importantly the kitten would not have been a candidate for early neutering had the breeder practiced that anyway, being severly undersized with a heart condition!!

If early neutering is genuinely being done for the kittens benefit only, seeing as there is an increased risk because of the kittens age and other stresses that happen at that time - why not keep the kittens until they are 6mths old, neuter them and rehome them then. Far more beneficial for the kitten and achieves your objective


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Tje said:


> Although I have never mentioned the risks of UTIs in this thread, the problem with early neutering is the lack of proper controlled studies on the longterm effects it could have on the animals. Any study has to encompass certain criteria to be classed as proper controlled scientific study. Sadly there just isnt sufficient data as yet available on the longterm effects of early neutering.
> 
> I really would like to embrace early neutering for shelter cats and trap/neuter/release cats in the part of the world I live (because it really is a DIRE situation here). So would the vets at the shelter. They are put off, not by the fact that they dont want to embrace new procedures, no, in fact one of the shelter vets is American and has carried out countless early neuters) they are put off by the obvious risks posed at an already traumatic life stage and by the lack of proper scientific data on the long-term effects of early neutering.
> 
> ...


I understand it has been carried out for along time in America someone told me that a vet from Newzealand has been doing it for 30 years or more. I understand some vets reluctance to do it as like anything new it can be scarey but it has been carried out for a long time in certain countries and like everything the U.K always seem to be the last to catch on. I am sure these countries have monitored cats for years after the surgety, but yes if anyone can find any long term studies of cats post surgery that have been monitored I would love to read it.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Saikou said:


> If early neutering is genuinely being done for the kittens benefit only, seeing as there is an increased risk because of the kittens age and other stresses that happen at that time - why not keep the kittens until they are 6mths old, neuter them and rehome them then. Far more beneficial for the kitten and achieves your objective


Actually, that's a brilliant point and one I have never ever thought of.

It really is the best of both worlds.

no risk of pregnancy... no risk of BYBs.... and no added health risk for the kitten due to being neutered too young!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> I understand it has been carried out for along time in America someone told me that a vet from Newzealand has been doing it for 30 years or more. I understand some vets reluctance to do it as like anything new it can be scarey but it has been carried out for a long time in certain countries and like everything the U.K always seem to be the last to catch on. I am sure these countries have monitored cats for years after the surgety, but yes if anyone can find any long term studies of cats post surgery that have been monitored I would love to read it.


I am sorry, but one vet carrying out countless early neuters does not constitute a scientific study.

Thats what I meant there are no proper studies available (as far as I am aware). I am not being a deliberate snob by the use of my word proper  but none of us would try a new vaccine or ground breaking new surgery techniques just because one doctor in New Zeeland said it was great. The medical community deems what constitutes a proper scientific study and as far as I am aware, there are no studies at all covering the long term effects of early neuter.

You might _assume_ the countries where this is most common (the US) have carried out extensive studies, but delve a little deeper I think youll find they havent.

The vets I have discussed this issue at length with are not UK vets and as I have already stated their reluctance to perform early neuters has nothing to do with their reluctance to embrace new procedures. I stated above why they were reluctant to do it.

But if anecdotal evidence from one vet is acceptable one of our shelter vets is an American and has carried out umpteen early neuters when he was doing his training as he gained lots of surgery hours volunteering for (I think) it was the Humane Society of the US - something like the RSPCA. He is dead set against it except as a tool to control feral/street cat populations.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Tje said:


> I am sorry, but one vet carrying out countless early neuters does not constitute a scientific study.
> 
> Thats what I meant there are no proper studies available (as far as I am aware). I am not being a deliberate snob by the use of my word proper  but none of us would try a new vaccine or ground breaking new surgery techniques just because one doctor in New Zeeland said it was great. The medical community deems what constitutes a proper scientific study and as far as I am aware, there are no studies at all covering the long term effects of early neuter.
> 
> ...


I use it as an example I am sure there are more than a small handful of vets doing it. When you say there is no real studies being carried out...what exactly do you mean. I am sure breeders who have been doing it in other countries for a long time who keep upto date with owners would know if there where any reaccuring problems in early neutered cats. I think it is best I go off and do more research myself as seen as no one can come up with any studies having been carried out or any follow up info on early neutering.
Keeping cats till 6 months and neutering them then would in an ideal world be the best option but I dont think for most breeders it is a feasable option, expense, housing of the cats for that length of time, finding homes for older kittens etc. I dont live in a large house and when you have 3 girls soon to be 4 it is not possible to have older kittens running around with younger ones and soon to be born litters, just not possible for my situation. Plus the risks of spread of disease should they occur with that many kittens all of different age groups is a recipy for disaster I think. It's neuter at 13 weeks or send to new homes and hope for the best.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Your one anecdotal piece of evidence for early neutering really isn't a good one. For a start just because the owner had entire cats running together, does not necessarily make that home a kitten farm, just screams ignorance to me. If the nature of the kittens condition had been truely explained, I fail to see any byb wanting to take the risk of paying for a cat who may never be able to breed or could die during birth. However, more importantly the kitten would not have been a candidate for early neutering had the breeder practiced that anyway, being severly undersized with a heart condition!!
> 
> If early neutering is genuinely being done for the kittens benefit only, seeing as there is an increased risk because of the kittens age and other stresses that happen at that time - why not keep the kittens until they are 6mths old, neuter them and rehome them then. Far more beneficial for the kitten and achieves your objective


It is not my only piece of evidence it is used as an example I have heard of others who have been in a similar situation, why would I post something that was untrue or risk doing something to my kittens that I thought would harm them???
the fact is it happens and if you call someone having entire cats running together and breeding kittens, selling them etc not a byb then I would love to know wht was. When this person was contacted she did not say it was an accident or whatever, she told the breeder where to go and it was none of her business etc. I admit I ould not put a young kitten with problems like that under anesthetic, I would in that case hold onto them, but for the majority of cats of good size, weight and health, I dont see it being I problem from what I have heard from others doing it


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

I am not getting into the right or wrongs of this, as someone said, it is really a matter of personal circumstances, preference and choice, but I DO have personal experience of early neutering in one of our non-peds, a rescue kitten neutered at 12 weeks, and a Selkirk Rex neutered at 13 weeks, plus a host of other mogs neutered between 5 and 12 months and another 2 Selkirks neutered after 6 months. I can honestly say that there have been no problems that we have encountered yet because of early neutering, nor any major differences between those early, normal or late neutered. 

The non-ped is now 13 1/2 years old, is a strapping big lad, and, until recently, has been one of the fittest cats we had. I say until recently as, sadly, he now has CRF but that is age related rather than early neutering related and he is being treated for it. The Selkirk was the first Premier of his breed and the first grand Premier so I don't think it has done him any harm either, but he is younger, 2 1/2. Neither, again so far, has suffered from urinary problems at all.

I am not putting forward any opinions, just pure facts from personal experience, which is, I think, what the OP requested.

Carol


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> Keeping cats till 6 months and neutering them then would in an ideal world be the best option but I dont think for most breeders it is a feasable option, expense, housing of the cats for that length of time, finding homes for older kittens etc. I dont live in a large house and when you have 3 girls soon to be 4 it is not possible to have older kittens running around with younger ones and soon to be born litters, just not possible for my situation. Plus the risks of spread of disease should they occur with that many kittens all of different age groups is a recipy for disaster I think. It's neuter at 13 weeks or send to new homes and hope for the best.


Then I am sorry then you should not be breeding!! You should not have any litter if you couldn't afford, financially or space wise, to keep that entire litter for one reason or another. Nor should you have the number of queens that means you have constant over lapping litters. Don't you keep all your cat outside during the day ?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Then I am sorry then you should not be breeding!! You should not have any litter if you couldn't afford, financially or space wise, to keep that entire litter for one reason or another. Nor should you have the number of queens that means you have constant over lapping litters. Don't you keep all your cat outside during the day ?


errm excuse me but what position are you in to tell me I should not be breeding cats because I said I can't keep ALL my kittens till 6 months of age??? I try not to have more than one litter at a time but there will be a slight overlap when you have a few girls even if it is a few weeks the older kittens stay well away from the newborns (well thats the plan) to reduce risks of infections etc and will be gone by the time the newborns are moving around hence why it is not an option to keep kittens that long unless I absolutely have to. No I dont keep all my cats outside during the day they have access to a run and if they want to go out in it they can but sometimes in the colder weather they like to stay indoors.
I find this comment utterly disgusting and extremely offensive to be honest


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

carolmanycats said:


> I am not getting into the right or wrongs of this, as someone said, it is really a matter of personal circumstances, preference and choice, but I DO have personal experience of early neutering in one of our non-peds, a rescue kitten neutered at 12 weeks, and a Selkirk Rex neutered at 13 weeks, plus a host of other mogs neutered between 5 and 12 months and another 2 Selkirks neutered after 6 months. I can honestly say that there have been no problems that we have encountered yet because of early neutering, nor any major differences between those early, normal or late neutered.
> 
> The non-ped is now 13 1/2 years old, is a strapping big lad, and, until recently, has been one of the fittest cats we had. I say until recently as, sadly, he now has CRF but that is age related rather than early neutering related and he is being treated for it. The Selkirk was the first Premier of his breed and the first grand Premier so I don't think it has done him any harm either, but he is younger, 2 1/2. Neither, again so far, has suffered from urinary problems at all.
> 
> ...


Thankyou for that information based on experience...so can I ask why they were neutered young in both cases and was your ped from a breeder, if so why did they choose to do it?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> errm excuse me but what position are you in to tell me I should not be breeding cats because I said I can't keep ALL mykittens till 6 months of age???


Not me, GCCF sensible advice to new breeders. Maybe TICA have lower standards. There are no guarantees any litter is going to be completely saleable or that you have homes lined up for them at 13 weeks old. It is plain old common sense!!!! If you are offended by that, then thats really your problem!!!



Clare Ferris said:


> No I dont keep all my cats outside during the day they have access to a run and if they want to go out in it they can but sometimes in the colder weather they like to stay indoors.


I got that information from your own website!



> My cats when not rearing kittens enjoy time outside in a secure, purpose built outdoor enclosure in the day and are brought indoors of a night.


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

Clare Ferris said:


> Thankyou for that information based on experience...so can I ask why they were neutered young in both cases and was your ped from a breeder, if so why did they choose to do it?


The mog was on the vet's advice as it was intended to take him into the small rescue we ran at the time and the vet just thought it was as well to do it while he was there (he had been dumped on their doorstep) - in the event we kept him as he was not the friendliest kitten in the world and his greeting was to bite first and ask questions later LOL.

The Selkirk was done because the breeder believed in early neutering and he had been done by the time we saw him on her website and asked about him. As we did not, and do not, intend to breed, it made no difference to us and did save us having to do it later. However, she allowed us to have his younger half brother unneutered as we intended to show both and wanted to keep them apart in showing terms as long as possible. She trusted us enough to allow us to leave the half brother as long as it suited us and was OK for him.

In the event we neutered him at 11 months and would have left it longer as he was no problem at all, was very clean and not at all agressive, but the breed were after ICs to gain championship status at the time and it became "political" to neuter him at that point as it helped the breed (there were more than enough entires and not enough neuters on the bench at the time and we needed as many qualified cats as possible before a deadline unless we wanted to wait another year) and again it made no difference to us as we were not breeding from him.

Carol


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Not me, GCCF sensible advice to new breeders. Maybe TICA have lower standards. There are no guarantees any litter is going to be completely saleable or that you have homes lined up for them at 13 weeks old. It is plain old common sense!!!! If you are offended by that, then thats really your problem!!!
> 
> I got that information from your own website!


I honestly can say I do not like your attitude one bit!!!!!! I think thats all I could actually say to you on here without getting banned put it that way!
I am well aware that there may be instances when I cannot sell a kitten at 13 weeks for whatever reason but there is a big difference between holding onto the odd kitten/litter than keeping ALL kittens till 6 months of age, I dont know any breeder with more than a couple of cats that is in a position to do that, should they not be breeding either???? You comments are way of mark and I have completely had it with you
Yes you are right it does say my cats enjoy time outside in the day but that does not mean everyday, sounds like you have been scouring through my site with a fine tooth comb looking for anything to use against me


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You can feign as much outrage as you like..............the fact remains that it is common sense NOT to have a litter unless you can keep them all until they are 6mths or beyond, because with the best intentions in the world of having them rehomed by 13 weeks old, you may have to.

Getting back to the topic, on that basis then keeping an entire litter to 6mths old should not be a problem.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

to the person who asked for the scientific studies...

I posted a list of them earlier in the thread... have fun reading!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Saikou said:


> You can feign as much outrage as you like..............the fact remains that it is common sense NOT to have a litter unless you can keep them all until they are 6mths or beyond, because with the best intentions in the world of having them rehomed by 13 weeks old, you may have to.
> 
> Getting back to the topic, on that basis then keeping an entire litter to 6mths old should not be a problem.


I have to agree here!

You dont breed a litter unless you are prepared to keep them ALL! You have to be able to afford them and keep them should it become necessary to do so. Equally i believe you should be prepared to have any one of your cats returned to you at any age. You bred them so you should be responsible for ensuring they do not end up adding to the already overwhelmed rescue situation.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> to the person who asked for the scientific studies...
> 
> I posted a list of them earlier in the thread... have fun reading!


Hi, that was me who asked.

I read the two articles you posted earlier on and have discussed the findings of one of your links (and very many other similar reports) with various different vets who seriously question the effectiveness of these studies. In fact many discounted them out of hand. The one thing you posted isnt even a study, its just an article. The CFA article you posted about the Winn study only consisted of a study group of about 30 cats split into 3 different age groups for neuter and the study only took a year to complete. The follow up on this study is incomplete (and they admitted that in the report). Apart from the number of animals studied being very small, the time studied being very short, they still dont know what the long-term effects are as the follow ups are incomplete.

I dont want to get into the debate over what constitutes a good scientific study. (but those criteria are laid down by veterinary schools and veterinary organizations anyway, not by lay people like me. And no proper study has been carried out, or at least thats what I have been led to believe by umpteen different vets).

What I will say is, I can take your word for it that this one study by the Winn foundation is perfect and base my future neutering decisions on it, or I can do what I chose to do and that is to discuss it with various different vets and use their training and professional experience to help me reach my decision, and thats what Ive done.

I am an expat, I generally move country every 2 or 3 years, in each country I work closely in the animal rescue circles (so I have access to the vets used by the rescue organizations) and I always have different vets for my own two cats. So generally speaking, I come into contact with more vets than most people do, and generally a more diverse group of vets (regards nationality, training and cultural norms). I have yet to meet one vet who is pro early neutering (with the exception of some vets willing to use it as a tool to curb the feral cat population or for shelters rehoming kittens in areas of the world where sterilization is not widely practiced). And to clarify, I dont just ask a vet hey are you pro or anti early neutering and get yes or no answer and leave it at that. I question them further on why they are against it.

Ive been doing that for years now and while I can t say that all vets I have dealt with are in total agreement on all angles of early neutering, I will say enough vets have enough serious doubts about it that I have reached the conclusion that its not for me or my cats.

But I hasten to add, I would LOVE a proper controlled study to be carried out with proper follow ups.


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

I have not read the whole thread but the posts asking for papers prompted me to look at messybeasts website. Go to the end of the article for papers:

EARLY AGE NEUTERING IN THE 21st CENTURY  INCREASING ACCEPTANCE


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I have to agree here!
> 
> You dont breed a litter unless you are prepared to keep them ALL! You have to be able to afford them and keep them should it become necessary to do so. Equally i believe you should be prepared to have any one of your cats returned to you at any age. You bred them so you should be responsible for ensuring they do not end up adding to the already overwhelmed rescue situation.


Im not stupid and perfectly aware that I may not sell my kittens at 13 weeks or may have them returned to me etc, infact I insist on it!!! part of breeding responsibly hence why I say in my contract that all of my cats MUST be returned to me should a new owner not be able to look after them for rehoming. I dont just sell them and then not care what happens later on if I did not care about the kittens welfare why the hell would I be even considering early neutering ????
For the record tica do have a breeder code of ethics aswell which I try to follow. Its not just the GCCF big on kitten welfare!
BIG, BIG difference there from keeping ALL kittens till 6 months and then rehoming after neutering that is a completely impractical solution for most breeders otherwise I am sure the breeders doing early neutering would wait till later. Dont need lectures on what I should be doing thankyou I am perfectly happy with how I manage things at the moment and know what I am doing. Plus how many owners would want to wait till their kitten was 6 months before rehoming?
Well I have all the info I need from this thread, thanks for all the positive comments and thanks china blue for all your helpful advice on and off this thread certainly has made me more infavour of it but I think I need to go and do some more online research!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Clare:

What happens if say you have a litter of 6 kittens from cat A and a litter of 4 from B a few weeks later and 2 kittens do not sell.......and then you have 2 returns??

You say you can't have all those cats including your own. So what would you do? Ok you'll try to sell them again but what if that takes a long long time or never??

Would you give up breeding because of the amount of cats and cost etc etc?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

in a worst case senario - yes I expect most breeders have a limit and would have to stop breeding if numbers got too high. But the chances are this won't happen - you test the market, having 'waiting' lists etc. There are people that want older cats not kittens etc, so any that 'return' would probably find new good homes. In a way - breeding is a gamble, you vet homes and expect that the cats will stay there, and I expect 95% either do or the owners move them on without informing you. Much as you would love every owner to stay your best friend forever, i'm sure there are a percentage that just can't be faffed after a while. From my last two kittens I have one owner that is in touch regularily and another that needs hard prodding to get info from. Nice couple just busy with their own lives and not mine. Lots of people are embarrassed if they can't manage with a kitten they spent hundreds on and don't go back to the breeder either, and by the time the breeder finds out it is too late. We do what we feel is best and hope that we manage it. Doesn't mean we shouldn't breed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Clare:
> 
> What happens if say you have a litter of 6 kittens from cat A and a litter of 4 from B a few weeks later and 2 kittens do not sell.......and then you have 2 returns??
> 
> ...


There's a simple solution which I have had to do several times in the past couple of years - you just reduce the price until they do sell. If that means you end up giving them away as adults then that is what you do.

Liz


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Clare:
> 
> What happens if say you have a litter of 6 kittens from cat A and a litter of 4 from B a few weeks later and 2 kittens do not sell.......and then you have 2 returns??
> 
> ...


I would nt have another litter a few weeks later would try and have atleast a couple of months inbetween but get your point, well in the case of not having homes in this case then ofcourse I would keep them or reduce my price on the older kittens that I could not sell, but what I am trying to say is deliberately keeping ALL my kittens till 6 months just to neuter them with new owners waiting is not possible as I would be over run with kittens, not to mention the risks of kittens mating with each other as can happen before 6 months of age. if I only had 2 girls then fine I could space the matings out more but I do plan on keeping a home bred girl later in year and buying possibly one more so that will take me upto 5 girls, then if I keep antmore in future it would be more girls down the line. It is a risk we all take breeding cats and if it happened regularly then I may have to rethink the whole thing or reduce my numbers, but nearly all the established breeder friends I know have around 8-10 cats in total some more. I can hold on to whatever cats I have to but not for the sake of it so I can neuter them later and I dont think most breeders would be willing to do this either hence why they early neuter?
I was referring to the post that said why dont I keep all my kittens til 6 months and neuter then rehome and that just is not possible im afraid


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> For the record tica do have a breeder code of ethics aswell which I try to follow. Its not just the GCCF big on kitten welfare!


Its strange that you were so outraged at my suggestion then  If you do as many about turns in a day as you on here you must be permanently screwing yourself into the ground  



Clare Ferris said:


> BIG, BIG difference there from keeping ALL kittens till 6 months and then rehoming after neutering


Sorry but I don't see the difference. If you have to have a contingency that allows you space and finance to keep each litter should you have to, what is the difference between that and actually doing it!!!


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

spid said:


> in a worst case senario - yes I expect most breeders have a limit and would have to stop breeding if numbers got too high. But the chances are this won't happen - you test the market, having 'waiting' lists etc. There are people that want older cats not kittens etc, so any that 'return' would probably find new good homes. In a way - breeding is a gamble, you vet homes and expect that the cats will stay there, and I expect 95% either do or the owners move them on without informing you. Much as you would love every owner to stay your best friend forever, i'm sure there are a percentage that just can't be faffed after a while. From my last two kittens I have one owner that is in touch regularily and another that needs hard prodding to get info from. Nice couple just busy with their own lives and not mine. Lots of people are embarrassed if they can't manage with a kitten they spent hundreds on and don't go back to the breeder either, and by the time the breeder finds out it is too late. We do what we feel is best and hope that we manage it. Doesn't mean we shouldn't breed.


Thanks spid...completely agree with you, I had a lovely enquiry from someone wanting an older cat, retiree? as she could not afford a kitten and loved the breed so much that she wanted one nomatter the age, unfortunately all my cats are young and hopefully have a few years left in them before retiring so I could not help her, first enquiry I had about this but then only had my website up about 6 months so I imagine you get atleast one/two a year like this plus you can also advertise or older cats for rehoming at a reduced price, I dont expect to have big problems as there are not a huge number of breeders around in my breed yet they do seem to be growing in popularity. I do however know of a couple of breeders with kittens they could not sell and they just reduced the price until they sold. If you have a waiting list also then you can hopefully be sure you will rehome atleast half of them in each litter. The what if's are endless I just take it as it comes and will try to find my own way. Also I believe alot of established breeders hardly need to advertise as once you have sold so many kittens you always seem to get those owners if they are happy with their breeder coming back for more and giving out recommendations etc so it is difficult starting out but once I am established I think it will get alittle easier.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Its strange that you were so outraged at my suggestion then  If you do as many about turns in a day as you on here you must be permanently screwing yourself into the ground
> 
> Sorry but I don't see the difference. If you have to have a contingency that allows you space and finance to keep each litter should you have to, what is the difference between that and actually doing it!!!


It is the way you so politely put it that got my back up..I am not doing any about turns but thanks for that if you dont see the difference then thats your problem, I see a BIG, BIG difference in keeping a whole litter when you dont need to, not selling them then yes you need to keep them, having them returned etc....Im not going to thrown them out at 13 weeks if I dont have homes. You throw your opinions round alot judging me and you have no right too, just my take on things, I can see exactly what you are trying to do and wont play right into your hands


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> It is the way you so politely put it that got my back up..I am not doing any about turns but thanks for that if you dont see the difference then thats your problem, I see a BIG, BIG difference in keeping a whole litter when you dont need to, not selling them then yes you need to keep them, having them returned etc....Im not going to thrown them out at 13 weeks if I dont have homes. You throw your opinions round alot judging me and you have no right too, just my take on things, I can see exactly what you are trying to do and wont play right into your hands


Then you are imagining things!!!! I merely suggested to avoid the stress factors all at once it is more beneficial for a kitten to be neutered later. If it was indeed the kittens welfare that you are concerned with, then you can achieve your objectives of foiling that byb that may approach you for a kitten, at the same time as safeguarding your kittens welfare by neutering them at a later date!!!!! Despite your protestations to the contrary, you obviously are very keen to ensure you do not end up keeping kittens beyond 13 weeks as that will interfere with your plans.

YOU are trying to turn this into something it isn't. No where have I been rude to you, or falsely accused you of anything or posted untruths about you supposedly supplied by a 3rd party - can you say the same :nonod: :nonod: If you feel you are being judged - maybe that's your guilty conscience


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Just wanted to say

For the record. I have contacted a couple of the universities which are still doing the long term studies. One is over 3000 cats of each group (7-10 weeks, 5-7mo and 12-18mo), and has been following up this study now for 18 years!!!!!! I didnt realise it was so long or so many.

Anyway, the head of their research department has forwarded all my queries to the guys actually doing the research. My queries cover things along with the physical effects, the mortality rate immediatly around surgery (within 6 weeks of surgery) for all groups and any other stress indicators such as times the kittens were vaccinated compared to the surgery.

Hopefully this study and the other which although just as big is only 11 years old, should help to answer some of the unanswered questions.

There have been no long term physical effects that i have been able to see, and the studys initial report (from the first university) which was published 10 years after starting had no higher mortality rates or illness rates amongst kittens neutered at either age.

This same study has gone into great depths of the types of anaesthetics used, why they were used, what the pre and post op care was. 

The downside of the 2nd study is that although perfectly valid, the surgeries were carried out by vet students, and so the operations took on average 15min longer than with an experienced vet. However the same questions have been posed to them.

I have also taken the liberty to contact two large animal charities in the usa. One who practices early neutering, and another who does not. To find out their reasons behind their decision, if it has made a difference on population controll and if they have come across any short or long term risks with the surgery.

Oh and for anyone interested, i have asked for the post op infection rate of any illness. Whether that be FIP, catflu, feline bordatella etc etc etc. Again to try and see if the stress is an indicator within the 3 groups.

If you can think of any other questions to pose then please please let me know and i will forward them on.

thanks


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Thankyou v v much BBm, I look forward to reading the replies


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> For the record. I have contacted a couple of the universities which are still doing the long term studies. One is over 3000 cats of each group (7-10 weeks, 5-7mo and 12-18mo), and has been following up this study now for 18 years!!!!!! I didnt realise it was so long or so many.


Wow that's impressive. If these studies have been going for 11/18 years how come none of their research is out on the net anywhere. You can usually find things referred to even if the study hasn't been actually published there. The only study consistently regurgitated is the one carried out by the Winn foundation. Ihave a few questions :


Where did you find out about this study?
Can you paste your email here so we can see exactly what has been asked?
How many of that original group of 3000 is still alive ? Considering cats seem to be classed as 'senior' by the time they are 8yrs old, they could surely have some reasonable findings to report 10 yrs ago?
What proportion of the study groups are pedigrees and what breeds are represented?
Are these 3000 cats kept in laboratory conditions or in a home environment? If in a home environment how have they maintained contact with the owners to collect data?
What diet are these cats on?
Do they have a control group?
Who/what is their study funded/sponsored by?
What was the initial objective of the study?
If their opinion is that early neutering is not detrimental to the kitten, what benefits are there to the kitten?


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Im sure the replies you receive from those involved in the study will be very reassuring to those that are pro-early neutering as I imagine they will simply reflex those findings in the Winn Foundation study which have been accessible to the public via the Internet for sometime.

However, I would be interested to know about the breeds of cats used. I note in write ups of that particular study that, Controlled studies into the short- and long-term effects of early neutering have been sadly lacking until recently. While there had been numerous anecdotal reports of early spaying and neutering, these cases were generally uncontrolled from the scientific viewpoint. Most reported cases were random bred, unrelated animals from a variety of backgrounds and no attempt was made to control for these variations. and therefore 7 purpose bred litters were used in the study - but isnt that the problem? It doesnt take into account the difference between operating on a moggie kitten to a pedigree one (or even the difference, say, between a Norwegian or a Siamese at that age). If you take one of the concerns about early neutering, that of FIP, many studies have shown that purebred cats are far more likely to develop FIP that non-pedigree cats (and on top of that certain pedigrees have been found to be more predisposed to the disease than others Inherited disorders in cats - INFECTIOUS CONDITIONS ). Did the studies take that into account? The FIP information out there _does_ link neutering, worming, vaccinations and then re-homing as serious contributions to the likelihood of the virus mutating in young kittens/cats. Ive been on a few Siamese and Oriental boards in the last few years, and whereas I cant think of a case of someone letting their cat get accidentally pregnant before being spayed, I do unfortunately know of a few young cats/kittens being lost to FIP.:nonod:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

hiya saiku i have forwarded your questions, once i get a reply will post the whole conversation for you.

As to the studies. I listed a number of them and another poster linked to the messybeast website which has a list of the studies and reports used for their post.

The rescues, i googled, and emailed a number to see what their nutering policy was, what age they nutered and how long their current reigeme had been running for. I only probed further with the ones who had either been doing standard nutering or early nutering for 10 or more years.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

otterwhiskers i will ask about the breeds of cats used, and how they were initially bred or obtained.

Its a good point, however hopefully the so called anecdotal evidence from the rescues which have been carrying this out will be able to shed some light, as i wouldnt think any of those kittens have been particularly well bred and would potentially have come into contact with all sorts of disease or illnesses.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> As to the studies. I listed a number of them and another poster linked to the messybeast website which has a list of the studies and reports used for their post.


The only study mentioned was the one funded by the Winn Foundation, the rest are articles written by individuals - not scientific studies. The same with the messybeast link - that is an article written by one individual. The list of references underneath are either those used in the article to prove a point, or contain information that the author deems pertinent.

I could probably write a similar article taking the opposing view, but selecting pieces from the same articles that prove my point.

To my mind, none of that can be deemed to be a study.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Billyboysmammy, can you say which university (is carrying out) has already studied 3000 early neuter cats over a period of 18 years?

Im asking this because so many vets have told me there have been no studies, and when I have confronted them with something Ive found on the net, theyve pointed out that whatever I had thought was a study, was nothing more than anecdotal evidence, that there was nothing scientific about it. Or something that calls its self a study which I present to them, they then tell me studies have parameters and criteria and controls that they must meet to be classed as a scientific study and what I was presenting them with wasnt good enough. 

Sorry if I sound a total snob :blush2:, I honestly dont mean to, I am just trying to explain what I have been told by numerous vets. 

Thats why I would like to know the university that has studied 3000 over an 18 yr period then I can run that by my vets here and see what they say about it.

Thanks in advance.


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

Any academic paper will reference papers that the author has read to inform their opinion. Don't see a problem with that - in fact it would be much more of a problem if none were referenced (plagarism).


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Janee said:


> Any academic paper will reference papers that the author has read to inform their opinion. Don't see a problem with that - in fact it would be much more of a problem if none were referenced (plagarism).


isn't there a big difference between using the results of controlled scientific studies to back up an opinion article, versus using other opinion articles as back up?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Saikou said:


> The only study mentioned was the one funded by the Winn Foundation, the rest are articles written by individuals - not scientific studies. The same with the messybeast link - that is an article written by one individual. The list of references underneath are either those used in the article to prove a point, or contain information that the author deems pertinent.
> 
> I could probably write a similar article taking the opposing view, but selecting pieces from the same articles that prove my point.
> 
> To my mind, none of that can be deemed to be a study.


But that's what the vast majority of university degrees entail.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Tje said:


> isn't there a big difference between using the results of controlled scientific studies to back up an opinion article, versus using other opinion articles as back up?


Depends who wrote them! Sometimes study is based on theories rather than results.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Hiya

The university that has been completing studies and following up since 1993 is the university of melbourne in conjunction with the cats protection society of victoria. Approximatly 3000 cats for each group have been monitored for any post op negative side effects.

Since 1992 the cats protection society of victoria has neutered over 56000 (numbers correct as of 2006) in its early neutering programme. These cats have not been purposefully bred and are all members of the rescue, therefore there is a wide variety of parameters where they could have come from.

The other person i have contacted is lisa howe, whob is associated with the university of texas where she completed her long term studies. Her studies were in both cats and dogs, but have so far been followed since 1998 and therefore well worth looking into. I am still waiting to hear back from them. Her original study was into the short term effects (up to post op 7 days) of early neutering compared to traditional, and she has since followed that at 12mo and now every 5 years. That should mean a follow up was done this last year sometime.

Shelters i have contacted:

massachusets spca as they did a follow up survey on all their early neuter patients in 1998, as did oregon ASPCA. 

I am awaiting confirmation or denial from 15 other shelters to get a less publicised view on both early or traditional age neutering.

Faggella and aronsohn completed a small study on 100 cats for early nutering, but i am as yet unable to find their report! any help? Their study was based more on the techniques needed, and anaesthesia methods which should be used for maximum safety, however i am still truggling to find the report!? Ive found plenty of websites which quote and publish the results but i prefer to read the original article.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

There is a common theme to everything you have mentioned there. Its all about rescue/feral cases where most people would agree early neutering is a *necessary evil* for population control. Nowhere in there does it suggest that any of the information coming back from them has any relevance to pedigree kittens whose forever homes are supposedly careful selected by caring breeders!

I wonder what they would say if you asked them whether early neutering in that circumstance was a justified risk to prevent



Clare Ferris said:


> anyone breeding from my lines that I have worked hard to produce and paid alot of expense for and hopefully had success showing?


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Saikou said:


> There is a common theme to everything you have mentioned there. Its all about rescue/feral cases where most people would agree early neutering is a *necessary evil* for population control. Nowhere in there does it suggest that any of the information coming back from them has any relevance to pedigree kittens whose forever homes are supposedly careful selected by caring breeders!
> 
> I wonder what they would say if you asked them whether early neutering in that circumstance was a justified risk to prevent


One of many reasons and not the most important reason, infact thinking about it I doubt byb's non reg cat would do much to affect my lines in the reg, show world, as was also pointed out on here, but what I am concerned about is the welfare of a kitten who may be used for breeding when sold as a pet. I would only sell breeding cats to people deemed fit to breed responsibly. I have come across many threads on here of people acquiring ped cats (probably as pets on none active reg) and breeding from them not registered and then asking advice on kittens and pedigrees etc? how did they get these cats in the first place by lying or from someone who does not care what happens to the kittens they sell, well your guess is as good as mine? but I would say 50/50! if they can do it so can any clever byb.
its one thing sitting here and saying well if you vet owners proply it wont ever happen, that is an extremely stupid thing to say and the fact is no one breeder out there can ever be sure no matter how well they think they vet people. What does it take for people to see that, maybe one of their cats ending up in that hopeless situation! Fact is early neutering is being practised and has been for a long time if any of these stidies are anything to go by. I have spoke to many a breeder here and abroad about it and can honestly say none have had problems and if they were having major problems I am sure being careing people with their cats welfare at heart would stop practising it. Thats not to say everyone agrees on it, theres not one thing in this world everyone agrees on, thats life you make your own choices and live with the consequences. As regards fip you could also argue that inbreeding and genetically weak kittens are also a major contributing factor to overall weakness of the immune system which can be a contributing factor to those kitties that go on to develop fip, so why dont breeders start breeding for health as well and stop the practice on inbreeding so much?
The fact is we could all sit her arguing for and against this for weeks and post as many studies in favour of it but is that going to convince everyone on here... I doubt it! Some may want to resort to implying that if breeders vetted properly byb's getting hold of their kits would not be a problem, or silly suggestions like keep them all till 6 months and neuter then, well I wish it was that simple. Its getting pointless and I think we should just all agree to disagree, no one is going to change someones mind if they have their hearts set on doing it! which might I add they believe is for the right reasons


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Got this info sent on tica yahoo group ( for sibby breeders/show people) today about a byb in America who used to breed dogs and got banned from breeding/keeping animals for the horrendous condition the dogs where kept in, many had to be put down and the state she was selling puppies in. Her ban has now lapsed and she is starting again this time with cats and has already acquired siberians. It was sent as a heads up to sibby breeders not too sell any cats to this person as she is posing as a pet owner trying to falsy acquire breeding cats.
See below to read comment from poster and then click on link to see info on her previous conviction which can I add again *has now lapsed!*!! so she is free to carry on as before abusing animals for monetary gain.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/1372/WA/US/

''If breeders would only spay/neuter pets
before they went to "pet (in this case...supposedly)
homes"! Sigh, when will we ever learn?
Susan Levine

Barbara Graff wrote:
> I am posting this information as a heads up for all breeders. The pet
> abuse link below will give you all the information you need to know that
> these people are not ones you want to sell your kittens to.
> Unfortunately, the information available tells us they are starting up
> again, this time with cats. They have purchased a large number of cats
> from several breeders (mostly Siberians), many purchased as pets, not
> for breeding, and they are now advertising for spring litters.
>
> http://www.pet- abuse.com/ cases/1372/ WA/US/
>
>
> Barbara Graff
> NACHREL American Bobtails
> BOLD BEAUTY Siberians
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Absolutely disgusting and yes it is in America but does not mean it cannot happen anywhere even if it is on a smaller scale, certainly makes me very nervous about my pet kitten sales, dont know about anyone else, its utterly disgusting and reason enough in my eyes and also that of the poster ( and many other american cat breeders) to early neuter ALL pet kittens. So you see many would say it also helps prevent animal suffering and cruelty!

Clare


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> its one thing sitting here and saying well if you vet owners proply it wont ever happen, that is an extremely stupid thing to say


It seems to me that no matter how diplomatically people try to express themselves on this topic, you feel completely unburdened by any form of manners or civility!:nonod:

Fine, if you feel that simply vetting a potential new owner can't guarantee that a kitten wouldn't end up being bred from, how are you going to ensure against other forms of potential abuse - if vetting owners is so unreliable? What other fail proof methods are you going to put in place for those? So you _wouldn't_ trust a new owner not to look after that kitten until neutering at an older age, but you _would_ trust them in other aspects of welfare? That's interesting.



Clare Ferris said:


> As regards fip you could also argue that inbreeding and genetically weak kittens are also a major contributing factor to overall weakness of the immune system which can be a contributing factor to those kitties that go on to develop fip, so why dont breeders start breeding for health as well and stop the practice on inbreeding so much?


The kittens I have personally known of who have succumbed to FIP were not inbreed. But, yes, I absolutley agree with you, anything that can increase the risk of FIP, be that inbreeding or early neuetering is something that needs to be looked in to.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Agreed.


I lost a beloved kitten to FIP, not inbred, not early spayed. It broke my heart to see how the illness progressed and realise there was nothing that could save her. Her breeder had not experienced FIP in her kittens before and had no way of predicting it would occur.

Responsible breeders DO breed for health, there are plenty out there that value health and happiness in their kittens more than/ as much as show success.

I think I'm right in saying that research into FIP mutation is ongoing in UCW Davies? Someone correct me if I'm wrong? But so far there are NO genetic markers detected even though a genetic susceptibility may be suspected.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Billyboysmummy, thanks for the info. I sent an email to one of our shelter vets, an Australian expat living here, and this is more or less what he said:

its law in some states in Australia to neuter before 12 weeks so a vet would be breaking the law if he stated openly that his honest professional opinion was that it was better to wait until 20-28 weeks. He also hinted that in his opinion vets in favour of early neuter were often looking at if from a profit point of view. According to him it is much cheaper and much quicker to neuter a 12 week old than it is to neuter a 26 week old so vets charging the same amount for 9 week neuters as they do for 26 week neuters can in theory make 3 times as much money in any one day spent neutering.

As this is one persons opinion (purely anecdotal) I didnt know how much I should trust it. But if what he said is true, then they are very pertinent points when it comes to trusting the impartiality of any early neuter info coming out of Australia. So I just did some searches on google and I did find this one article that seems to support both points he raised.

Feline Neutering - All About Male Cat Desexing.

see section 3a & 3b for the two quotes copied below

_"IMPORTANT - because of the rising problems of pet and feral animal overpopulation, it is now the law in many states (e.g. Canberra, Australian Capital Territory) for kittens to be desexed prior to 12 weeks of age. What this means is that early age desexing is now compulsory, regardless of any (minor) anaesthetic risks to the animal, and veterinarians who advise desexing at 5 months of age onward are breaking the law. Owners of cats (and dogs) need to check their local state laws on pet neutering ages".

"From a veterinary anaesthesia and surgery perspective, the duration of surgery and anaesthesia is much shorter for a smaller, younger animal than it is for a fully grown, mature animal. I take about 1 minute to neuter a male kitten of about 9 weeks of age compared to about 3-5 minutes maximum for an older tom."_

The whole article is quite interesting to read, especially the "advantages and disadvantages" section (points 3a & 3b). I felt on the whole it was a balanced article. But again it is heavily biased towards fixing the feral and shelter cat problem, which I maintain is a whole different kettle of fish than pedigree bred cats.

If you put cats into 2 groups, 
group1 - pedigree bred cats and 
group 2- shelter/feral cats
accidental/irresponsible breeding is undeniably a *much* bigger problem in the second group than it is in the pedigree bred group. I support the more drastic approach for the 2nd group because it is a drastic problem (necessary evil as Saikou earlier on in the thread put it), but using early neuter to solve the problem of irresponsible/accidental breeding in pure bred cats is still in my opinion the equivalent of buying an elephant to swat your mosquitos.

I am still enjoying this thread, my thanks to those posters who can accept different points of view and argue their side in a civil and polite manner! And to the one person who continually resorts to being rude, well. Can you at least _try_ to keep a civil finger on your keyboard?


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

I agree.

For me, my objections are not so much about early neutering in a feral or rescue situation when trying to control overpopulation, even the Winn study use that as the reason behind the practice. My specific concerns are whether this was ever meant to be adopted into the pedigree breeding/ownership arena. Dr. Deanna Kraft, DVM, wrote in an article

_Most veterinarians who advocate early-age sterilization recognize that there may be some future risk to the patient. However, they also recognize the enormity of the pet overpopulation problem, the tragedy of using euthanasia as a means of control, and the miserable failure of our previous system of waiting until the pet is older. Most of them, myself included, are of the opinion that, while a cat or dog may experience a (manageable) health problem such as urinary incontinence later in life, this possibility pales in comparison to the very real and everyday occurrence of death by euthanasia of millions of healthy cats and dogs every year in this country._

And Im not sure anyone who disagree with early neutering in the right environment, even with any risks involved, if it were between that or being put to sleep due to not being able to be homed. However I am uncomfortable with the idea of pediatric neutering being used indiscriminately across the board. I wonder if some breeders havent hijacked this practice and cited the same socially acceptable welfare argument, when in fact not all the reasoning is so altruistic. As one poster on here wrote;



Clare Ferris said:


> do I want anyone breeding from my lines that I have worked hard to produce and paid alot of expense for and hopefully had success showing?


I wonder if there wont be breeders out there adopting this reason for the sole purpose of early neutering, to protect the exclusivity of their product.

Even the back yard breeder concern, while Im sure not completely unfounded, I wonder get their hands on pedigree kittens from serious and responsible breeders? I would have thought the majority of BYBs actually get their cats from other BYBs or people of the same elk. Take for example one advert for a Siamese kitten being sold on Preloved at 12 weeks old with no vaccinations so sellin cheap, in the words of the advert, for £170 . I cant help but think poor cats like that are more likely to be sold to unscrupulous people than kittens from decent breeders are going to be asking questions and vetting potential owners carefully? Why go through hoops to get a pedigree kitten when you can go to someone who is also selling the breed youre after, except charge half price and wont care who you are?

There are a list of differences you can talk about when it comes to feral/rescue/moggie cats and that of pedigrees - i.e. How many pedigree cats do you know who are allowed to wander the street to get pregnant before being neutered, (even after being neutered?). If you are talking about a rescue centre with hundreds of cats and dogs needing homes, then maybe early neutering is their only real route, but can a breeder who has a litter at a time claim to be in the same impossible situation - there surely must be better methods in place. I still think the idea of home visits are a good idea, and if you don't wish to travel to the other side of the Country to do so....don't sell your kittens that far away then!

Leah100 - so sorry to hear about your poor kitten.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> its one thing sitting here and saying well if you vet owners proply it wont ever happen, that is an extremely stupid thing to say and the fact is no one breeder out there can ever be sure no matter how well they think they vet people. What does it take for people to see that, maybe one of their cats ending up in that hopeless situation!


I don't think anyone has said it won't EVER happen - the point made was IS the risk of that happened greater or smaller than the potential risk to the kitten being early neutered.

By careful, extensive vetting you CAN minimize the risk of your kitten ending up in a byb breeding program. If that vetting is carried out _properly_!



Clare Ferris said:


> Fact is early neutering is being practised and has been for a long time if any of these stidies are anything to go by.


Yes it has in feral and rescue situations - not in the pedigree cat world, for the reasons stated above.



Otterwhiskers said:


> Fine, if you feel that simply vetting a potential new owner can't guarantee that a kitten wouldn't end up being bred from, how are you going to ensure against other forms of potential abuse - if vetting owners is so unreliable? What other fail proof methods are you going to put in place for those? So you _wouldn't_ trust a new owner not to look after that kitten until neutering at an older age, but you _would_ trust them in other aspects of welfare? That's interesting.


I completely agree here, no breeder can claim to trust a new owner over one issue but distrust them over another. If I had the slightest doubt over anything to do with a prospective kitten owner I wouldn't proceed, no matter how small that doubt.



Otterwhiskers said:


> I wonder if there won't be breeders out there adopting this reason for the sole purpose of early neutering, to protect the exclusivity of their product.


Precisely!!

Clare I have to wonder, if you are so pro early neutering to the point where you can not take on board anyone elses point of view unless it agrees with you, *why *you didn't early neuter the one kitten you have bred and sold ? Surely that would have been an ideal test case for you. I think on another thread you said that the kitten owner was already a client of the surgery you work at.  Wouldn't that have given you an ideal opportunity to monitor any health aspects long term ?

OR did you only come to the conclusion that early neutering was the way to go after deciding to import a stud cat from the US?



Clare Ferris said:


> I am going to be getting an excellent show quality stud from America end of next year. It will cost me a fortune as he will have to go into quarantine but it will mean I will be self sufficient then and not have to worry about going to outside stud. Like most breeds nearly all breeders are closed stud and would not consider selling a boy without loads of restrictions hence my reasons for going abroad.


( http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/77467-how-when-why-did-you-start-breeding.html#post1245720 )

which ties in with your admission above



> do I want anyone breeding from my lines that I have worked hard to produce and paid alot of expense for and hopefully had success showing?


I have to wonder whether this is truely more about protecting the exclusivity of your lines as opposed to kitten welfare, which makes me ponder on a couple of things:

1. As you have now finally agreed that byb breeding can not end up in the ped gene pool, and by the very nature of the beast they are not interested in lines/colours per sey just is the kitten easily accessible complete with uterus or balls as per their requirements - who are you trying to protect your lines from ? Other siberian breeders? Does this show a mistrust of your fellow breeders who may be dishonest enough to acquire a pet kitten through the back door and use it in their lines for the genes alone, attributing the resulting offspring to a registered cat in their own name   or is purely because you want to be able to market your kittens as coming from imported lines that no one else in the UK has as a good marketing hook

2. If as you are seeking to try and prove, there absolutely is no risk what so ever to the kittens immediate and long term health care, they recover so quickly then don't even notice etc etc then why hide behind the welfare issue. Surely if early neutering is such an insignificant minor occurance in the kittens life it wouldn't matter what reason you were doing it for, that would just be down to personal choice and no need to hide behind the welfare issue for the purpose of being more socially acceptable.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Tje said:


> Billyboysmummy, thanks for the info. I sent an email to one of our shelter vets, an Australian expat living here, and this is more or less what he said:
> 
> its law in some states in Australia to neuter before 12 weeks so a vet would be breaking the law if he stated openly that his honest professional opinion was that it was better to wait until 20-28 weeks. He also hinted that in his opinion vets in favour of early neuter were often looking at if from a profit point of view. According to him it is much cheaper and much quicker to neuter a 12 week old than it is to neuter a 26 week old so vets charging the same amount for 9 week neuters as they do for 26 week neuters can in theory make 3 times as much money in any one day spent neutering.
> 
> ...


You are quite right it is law in certain territories in australia. However does that mean that the experiences of those vets and shelters should be ignored?

Those people who have been neutering their cats early for decades would surely be the most experienced in the field?

I do however completely agree that for a vet, there could easily be a higher profit margin. I will dig out one of the articles i found on the different types of anaesthesia reccomended for neutering early vs traditional, because i know that they are different. I wonder if that and the other pre-post op differences would impact somewhat on the profit ( i suspect a little but not much).

I still stand by that if you produce a kitten you are responsible for ensuring that unless "qualified" (i.e on the active register to an experienced home), that kitten doesnt produce more kittens, and so inadvertantly and unintentionally add to the rescue population.

My experience as a foster mum to pregnant cats cannot be unique. I cannot be the only person who has had a number of pregnant pedigrees through my doors! Those cats were bought somewhere, and should never have been bred from. Yes two of mine i still have were from crappy breeders themselves, the other was not. So... accidents can and do happen... frequently!

As the original breeder you are responsible. Well... thats how i feel about it. There is also some significant health risks for an underage queen to be going through pregnancy and birth, would you want that of one of your babies?

We will all do what we consider is to be the right thing. There is no point in argueing, but a good debate is interesting.

I am still waiting for all the replies, and i have forwarded your other questions along too. will keep you posted. x


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Otterwhiskers said:


> I agree.
> 
> For me, my objections are not so much about early neutering in a feral or rescue situation when trying to control overpopulation, even the Winn study use that as the reason behind the practice. My specific concerns are whether this was ever meant to be adopted into the pedigree breeding/ownership arena. Dr. Deanna Kraft, DVM, wrote in an article
> 
> ...


Thankyou Otterwhiskers, I know many of us have suffered the loss of a beloved kitten this way.....

I can see personally that where population control is an issue, and the risk of disease etc very high, then early neutering can be seen as a necessity.

If the studies can prove conclusively that there is no detriment to kittens who are neutered early, I certainly wouldn't object to owning or buying an early neutered kitten [IF it was shown to make no difference healthwise] It would indeed be a relief to know that all surgical interventions had been done and I wouldn't have the worry in the future, I know mishaps with neutering ops are rare, but a couple of my friends have tragically lost beloved girls in 'freak mishaps' 

After seeing some of the ads on Preloved etc when it is very obvious that cats have been bred ignorantly by people who never prepared themselves for the responsibility of breeding, and who DON'T have their cats' needs as their first priority, I can see how tempting Early Neuter could be, especially if you were a responsible breeder who found that you had been lied too, and one of your own bred cats abused and sold on......

What I CANNOT agree with is this business of 'protecting lines' as a reason. It seems completely spurious, and as many beloved breeds are actually in need of their gene pool expanding, not restricting, seems detrimental to any breed in the long run.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Leah100 said:


> What I CANNOT agree with is this business of 'protecting lines' as a reason.


Completely agree with you there.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Billyboysmummy, 

I never meant their opinions meant nothing, just more along the lines of well, a lot of people would be willing to sacrifice ethics if it meant they could treble their daily earnings  and we have to consider 'alternative motives' when we consider the opinions of vets whose earning potential are increased considerably by performing early neutering. 

And with the law being that cats must be neutered before 20 weeks, well, it hardly allows vets to give impartial advice  if they did so theyd be breaking the law (or aiding and abetting or what ever the legal term is). Again, it just makes opinions from these vets harder to trust. 

I think none of us dispute the need for some effective measure to curb the breeding of feral and shelter cats (where all of the information on early neutering comes from) and where it is proving to be a brilliant solution. 

I just think in the arena of the pedigree bred cat that early neutering is a sledgehammer to crack a nut solution. 

However, I actually respect the fact that you stand so steadfastly behind your own opinions (and understand your reasons why) and respect the fact that youve obviously spent a lot of time and effort doing your homework. Sure, your opinions and the conclusions you reach are different than mine, but Im sure you respect my opinion to stick to breeders who dont early neuter and understand my reasons why. And I totally agree, good debate is healthy and interesting and forces us to think about why were doing (or not doing) something. It avoids the stagnation of thought!

Im not (and never have been) a breeder and I only have two pedigree cats of my own at any one time, and Im not into showing or anything like that. I do foster and have done for years but I have never had a pregnant pedigree or even pedigree kittens through my door. Only once have I come across something like that when I fostered 4 disastrously bred Persian adults found abandoned in the street and the local shelter took them on. Most likely they were the result of this new trend for breeding tea cup Persians (dont know if this problem exists in the UK breeding tiny little Persian cats that look like kittens? My ones were fullygrown adults and weighed between the 1000grams and 1500grams when they came to me, really awful to see, even after 4 months of intensive care they only gained a small amount of weight, they left me weighing between 1300 and 1700grams with no more growth potential). I can honestly say with my hand on my heart that despite years of rescue work, (trapping ferals and strays, rehabbing ferals, TNRing of ferals, fostering mothers and litters, fostering orphaned kittens, manning feeding stations and so on) that I have never ever came across one single stray pedigree cat on the streets  unless you count those 4 teacup Persians. Every cat rescue I have been involved in has been of the moggy cat variety. But maybe things in the UK have gone way down hill in the years Ive lived abroad and stray pregnant pedigrees are a bigger problem in the UK than I thought.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Tje said:


> Billyboysmummy,
> 
> I never meant their opinions meant nothing, just more along the lines of well, a lot of people would be willing to sacrifice ethics if it meant they could treble their daily earnings  and we have to consider 'alternative motives' when we consider the opinions of vets whose earning potential are increased considerably by performing early neutering.
> 
> ...


yes i dont know what it is, but there has been an explosion. Certain breeds and certain colours of those breeds seem to be more common. Silver tabby BSH, Blue BSH, Russian blues, siamese, oriental, ragdolls, persians (particularly dilute colours), bengals and rexes. I would think this is due to their higher popularity in the media, and so there are more of them around than say another pedigree breed.

Its also not so much that they are found stray, but are handed over pregnant from owners who were ignorant as to how insistant a calling girl can be! Occasionaly yes they are found, my rex girl i found tied in a bag in a skip on a building site, could hear this cat yelling and couldnt find it, took me hours of searching before i pinpointed her calls.

The ownership of pedigree cats is also gaining popularity. Its now not so unusual or considered bonkers to spend £500 on a cat, even though there are still some who believe it is.

i have to run, late for the school run will come back to this in a min! didnt realise the time!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I cannot be the only person who has had a number of pregnant pedigrees through my doors! Those cats were bought somewhere, and should never have been bred from. Yes two of mine i still have were from crappy breeders themselves, the other was not. So... accidents can and do happen... frequently!


Sorry, but I don't understand how the fact that you have had a few rescued peds who were pregnant proves the argument for EN in this instance and proves that carefully vetting of homes doesn't work.

For a start without necessary pedigree and registration forms, those cats can not be proven to be pedigrees, and I doubt very much if the person handing in that cat to rescue would also have handed over all the documentation to go with that cat.

Without that documentation you can not definitively say that those cats were in the hands of bybs who were breeding with cats not on the active register. Either way I would imagine the chances of those cats having been bred by a responsible breeder who vetted all prospective kitten owners is infinitesimally small. More than likely they were acquired from breeders with/without registered prefix, who didn't give a damn where those kittens went or who had them just as long as they had the cash.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Sorry, but I don't understand how the fact that you have had a few rescued peds who were pregnant proves the argument for EN in this instance and proves that carefully vetting of homes doesn't work.
> 
> For a start without necessary pedigree and registration forms, those cats can not be proven to be pedigrees, and I doubt very much if the person handing in that cat to rescue would also have handed over all the documentation to go with that cat.
> 
> Without that documentation you can not definitively say that those cats were in the hands of bybs who were breeding with cats not on the active register. Either way I would imagine the chances of those cats having been bred by a responsible breeder who vetted all prospective kitten owners is infinitesimally small. More than likely they were acquired from breeders with/without registered prefix, who didn't give a damn where those kittens went or who had them just as long as they had the cash.


please read back and you will see that i have already answered your queries on this!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Sorry I can not see anywhere in that post that you state you have the paperwork, which would be highly surprising and very unusual that one they would provide that to the rescue in the first place and that the rescue would pass that documentation on !!!

That aside, as you state "Those cats were bought _somewhere_" you still can not comment on the vetting procedure of the breeder who sold them and for the purpose of this argument bearing in mind where and how those cats ended up that vetting was more than likely non existent.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> yes i dont know what it is, but there has been an explosion. Certain breeds and certain colours of those breeds seem to be more common. Silver tabby BSH, Blue BSH, Russian blues, siamese, oriental, ragdolls, persians (particularly dilute colours), bengals and rexes. I would think this is due to their higher popularity in the media, and so there are more of them around than say another pedigree breed.


I've not seen siamese or orientals used in the media. Most people have no idea what an oriental short/long hair is! Siamese and persians have always been popular easily recognised breeds.

I agree with some breeds like the silver tabby BSH and Russian blue because they were used in adverts had peeks of popularity. Bengals are still victims of their "designer label". The rest seems a bit of a sweeping statement.

I know there is huge problem with the Bengals because of their hype and high price tag they have made themselves more open to bybs, but thats types with registered prefixes as much as without. They are just looking to make a profit and do not care who they sell to.

In all these instances unless you are advocating compulsory EN of all pedigree kittens, then all they really serve to prove is that some breeders' vetting procedures leave alot to be desired.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

This might be a very naïve question, but obviously a lot of you on this thread are breeders;

have any of you breeders ever in the past had the situation arise where a kitten of yours went on to become pregnant through accident, or was deliberately mated (when that was specifically disallowed in the sale contract), or was left to wander the streets, or the new owners were too lazy to get it neutered, or a male kitten went on to become the neighbourhood stud pairing with moggies

or anything at all like that, that would warrant you now being more likely to look at early neuter as a solution to avoid it reoccurring?

I am just trying to grasp something here.

are people who are pro-early neuter of pedigree kittens doing so because there _*is*_ a big problem (big risk) of irresponsible breeding in the pedigree kittens being sold as pets?

or are these people just overreacting to a small problem in a drastic manner?

or on the flip side, those who dont early neuter, are they just very good at vetting or do they have their heads in the sand about the reality of where their kittens end up?


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

As I've said before, I think early neutering has its place - although I don't like the idea of it being used across the board AND feel that, while protecting a cat from possible abuses from over breeding, will not protect them from other forms of abuse. I'd personally like to see other methods tried first for the general problem of irresponsible breeding/ownership. I saw this subject being spoken about, albeit regarding dogs, but it could work with cats too. This article outlines the ideas. What do you think?

Microchipping dogs: a good idea or unworkable control freakery? - Telegraph Blogs


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I've not seen siamese or orientals used in the media. Most people have no idea what an oriental short/long hair is! Siamese and persians have always been popular easily recognised breeds.
> 
> I agree with some breeds like the silver tabby BSH and Russian blue because they were used in adverts had peeks of popularity. Bengals are still victims of their "designer label". The rest seems a bit of a sweeping statement.
> 
> ...


iams... have a look at their advert


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I can only speak for myself but in 8 yrs of breeding I have not had a case of a kitten being misused for breeding or allowed to wander the streets unneutered. I am incredibly fussy where the kittens go and will only consider homes where that kitten is going to be cared for in a manner I feel is appropriate. I certainly do not have my head in the sand about where my kittens end up. I think its quite easy to get a feel for people and spot disingenuity.

I do have a contract, with a neuter/spay form that the owners vet completes and the owner sends back. I appreciate that although there are clauses about neutering these are potentially uninforcable, I use the contract mainly to prove that a discussion about the difference between active and non active has taken place and that the owner has agreed and understood that the kitten is non active. The contract is based on a sample provided by the GCCF that was approved by their solicitors.

You do hear of the odd case where kittens have fallen into the wrong hands but they do seem to form a minute % of the total kitten sales where the breeder does care what happens to that kitten. So I do think that EN does form an overreaction to a small problem in a drastic manner.

If it happened to one of my kittens, unless there were further facts and long term studies to convince me that there was *absolutely no *risk to the kittens immediate or longterm health, I would not consider EN.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> iams... have a look at their advert


I think you will find thats a burmese AYSHA-ZEN CATS - Lazzy the IAMS TV Advert Cat - Ayshazen Lazzyruss Chocolate Burmese.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Otterwhiskers and Salikou, thanks for your responses. I only know 4 breeders well, 2 family members and 2 breeders I have bought from and kept in touch with over the years. They all have similar opinions on EN (necessary evil in rescue circles, and sledgehammer for cracking nuts in pedigree circles). I'm just too out of touch with the 'on the ground' situation in the UK to have any valid opinions of my own. 

Otterwhiskers, I read the article you posted. And I have zero problems with the big-brother angles of this chipping. If it promotes animal welfare and its not bigger or more painful to insert than the current chips, then Id say I am all for it. But, how would it work? How would it be policed? I mean, what if loads of people just decided not to get it done, would it just be yet another measure that only seems to affect us responsible owners (who I suppose its not aimed at in the first place). If I could expect policemen/animal wardens out on the beat to be stopping random dogs out for their daily walks and swiping to check theyre chipped, then confiscating dogs without chips, then yes I am all for it. And the same for cats of course, any cat on the street without a chip is confiscated, (neutered if necessary) and rehomed with a chip. Brilliant idea! But if the authorities arent going to properly sanction irresponsible owners, if theyre just going to get a slap on the wrist or a verbal warning when their pets arent chipped, or worse yet the scheme isnt policed at all, then Im not so happy about it as I feel it would only be the responsible owners who would abide by the new law. 

All in all, I really like the sound of it as long as it was actively policed.


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

I suppose it would only work if it became law that all animals needed to be chipped - and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that. The information said that the chipping was used in conjunction with animal licenses (in regards to Australia), again, something I'd be up for. I think its about time that breeder/owner accountability be introduced. I suppose the devil will be in the detail.

What Id personally like to see is that, on top of people having to prove their suitability to keep a pet, an agreement to neuter by a certain age - and ideally that cats are not allowed to roam unless they are neutered and vaccinated first.


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## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

Sorry I do feel as though people are taking one statement I made about lines to the extreme I may have hastenly posted that not fully thinking, if it was a case of protecting my lines from competition then It would only be other reg breeders I would need to worry about and I dont think these people would try and acquire a cat as a pet to later breed, people in the show world and even though I have only been showing a year I know nearly all reg sibby breeders so I dont think they would do this they would just ask for a breeding cat if they wanted the line.
As I have said before that is not my reason for doing it, I want to protect the kittens from being bred indiscriminately. And you may think I am using a sledge hammer approach but if thats what it takes to prevent even one of my babies ending up in this situation then so be it, if their is no evidence to say it harms health. My evidence is many breeders doing it for many years with no detriment to health, thats all I need people with experience. As for fip it still occurs in non en cats so how did they get it? fact is doctor pederson of UC Davies in America has devoted his whole working life to trying to find a cure for it and is still not there and is at retirement age soon if not now! There is no evidence to prove en causes fip!
A byb may find it easier to buy a kitten from another byb but it all started with a reg breeder how else would that breed have got into the country i.e sibbies were brought in from Russia and america 8 yrs ago by a couple of reg breeders. It spirals out of control i.e you sell as a pet the cat gets pregnant and that owners sells them to maybe what they feel are loving homes and one of them could be a byb and then they get bred and so on etc. Wheter it is a big problem or not it is still a problem. I have not seen any evidence to state I am harming a kitten by en. I still feel the following statement from my previous thread that no one commented on is hitting the nail on the head:

''If breeders would only spay/neuter pets
before they went to "pet (in this case...supposedly)
homes"! Sigh, when will we ever learn?

May seem like less of a problem but thats because 90% of the cat population are mogs and only 10% pedigree, so 1 cat in this small number I still feel is significant.
I decided to do it after looking into it more and I already had my first kitten sold by then. They have no interest in breeding and I trust them, I will know when the kitten is neutered as they use my vets, I am having kitten back next month to look after for the new owners whilst they are on hols and he will then be booked in shortly after for neutering. The reason I am considering it now is because I will have 3 litters this year and probably bound to have girls in there so would want to do it for these kittens and in the future.
As for my stud I wont have him till next year so it is nothing to do with that suggestion of protecting my lines. Or wanting to be exclusive, there are many breeders in the U.K who have exclusive imported cats and they dont early neuter. I do feel this thread is being twisted and made out to be a way of protecting lines and nothing about cat welfare I also find it funny that *not one* person has commented on the tica thread I posted re byb.
The people now posting are against neutering of peds so ofcourse you will pick snipits of info which go towards making your opinions with stand more ground. Pedigree/ non pedigree what does it matter any cat can fall in to the wrong hands fairly easily. I got my rescue persian entire and found wandering the streets in a mess luckily not pregnant but she has had previous litter so obviously came from a breeder or pet owner who failed to get cat neutered. I have voiced my reason of why I want to early neuter and once again to protect the kittens welfare, thats all their is to it, if this is meant to be a friendly debate then why the ganging up on a few people who want to do it or already do for what they believe are the right reasons. This is not a debate just a group of people who all agree trying to make their opinions seem right. It is only right in your own minds and not everyone elses. You dont agree so dont do it but dont try and make others feel guilty who want to and PLEASE dont imply we do not have the cats best interests at heart.:nonod:
note: if it was only about lines then I would not sell ANY for breeding or be considering a friend use him with her girls. I would sell to ethical breeders only having known them for years through showing and I would not be restricting the gene pool I have every intention of my best examples of the breed going on to further develop the breed is that not one reason for breeding properly?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> Sorry I do feel as though people are taking one statement I made about lines to the extreme I may have hastenly posted that not fully thinking,
> 
> I still feel the following statement from my previous thread that no one commented on is hitting the nail on the head:
> 
> ...


You made the statement about protecting your lines through early neuter Clare, you brought your own integrity in to question through your own words. Now you want people to pretend like it was never said?

As for the ganging up on people who are pro EN, where is this happening?

I disagree with Billyboysmummy, she disagrees with me - there is no ganging up, just respectful debate. I havent felt the need to call her or her points of view stupid and she hasnt felt the need to resort to that kind of language with me either. Normal rational adults can disagree politely.

The same cannot be said for your debating techniques. You are continually rude. You pack peddle at an alarming rate. You try to stifle the debate when youre not getting the type of replies you want. You get openly outraged when people disagree with you. Your 'tone' leaves a lot to be desired.

Everyone else on this thread is managing to get their points across in a polite, diplomatic non-offensive manner; youre the only one chucking the rattle out the pram.

Now youre moaning because no one has responded to some post you copied from some other internet group about one persons experience with a BYB. Maybe you should take a leaf out of Billyboysmummys or Janees book and find some credible material to debate. I might not totally agree with the messybeast article or some of the veterinary studies these ladies posted, but they do have substance and are worthy of debate. The same cant be said of using an anecdotal post from an individual on an internet to forum to support your argument.

To be perfectly honest youre acting like a petulant child.

I found it difficult to take you seriously in the first place, now Im finding it nigh on impossible.


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## Otterwhiskers (May 22, 2008)

Tje - yet again, I agree with everything you have said.



Clare Ferris said:


> Sorry I do feel as though people are taking one statement I made about lines to the extreme I may have hastenly posted that not fully thinking, if it was a case of protecting my lines from competition then It would only be other reg breeders I would need to worry about and I dont think these people would try and acquire a cat as a pet to later breed


So basically what you're saying is that you _did_ think about early neutering to protect your lines but, as it had to be pointed out to you, it turned out to be a moot point - but it doesn't detract from the fact that not only had you thought about it, but wrote it on here for everyone to read. Are you really surprised that people picked up on that and voiced their concerns about such attitudes. :nonod:

If you are so happy with early neutering and feel that there are zero chances of risk to the kittens, when why say that ......



Clare Ferris said:


> Im still 80/20 in favour of it


Why have any doubt, considering 'your evidence' shows no problems with the practice? And why constantly criticise other people who also share doubts, albeit to a higher percentage?



Clare Ferris said:


> I decided to do it after looking into it more and I already had my first kitten sold by then. They have no interest in breeding and I trust them


Yet only a few pages ago you labeled others who spoke about trust and the vetting of potential owners as "extremely stupid" and something that couldn't be relied on.



Clare Ferris said:


> this is meant to be a friendly debate


And yet I have seen several times on this and other threads people, including myself, having to ask you to refrain from being rude. In fact you are the only person I would say is unfriendly and incapable of being able to express themselves in a grown up manner. You constantly contradict yourself, are guilty of the very things you accuse others of and try to dominate any debate. Ironically, of all the people that communicate on here, you are the person whose views I have grown least interested on reading.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> Sorry I do feel as though people are taking one statement I made about lines to the extreme I may have hastenly posted that not fully thinking


If your case for EN was truely for the benefit of the cat then protecting lines would not have occurred to you, even if you posted in haste not fully thinking. It simply would not have come into the equation.



Clare Ferris said:


> My evidence is many breeders doing it for many years with no detriment to health


I only know of a handful of breeders that EN and they have not been doing it long enough to monitor cats into old age. Although they reportedly may not have encountered any issues immediately post neutering, they can not make statements or provide evidence on long term effects. Indeed as has already been noted - you can not guarantee to keep in contact with those pet buyers. If a EN cat started having persisten issues with UTIs age 5 + - how many pet owners would think to inform the breeder they last spoke to x number of years ago or get the odd christmas card from!!!



Clare Ferris said:


> As for fip it still occurs in non en cats so how did they get it? fact is doctor pederson of UC Davies in America has devoted his whole working life to trying to find a cure for it and is still not there and is at retirement age soon if not now! There is no evidence to prove en causes fip!


But there is evidence to prove that FCoV mutates into FIP at times of stress ie going to a new home, neutering at any time. Vaccinations - stress factor, worming - stress factor. Start adding up those stress factors and the chance of any FCoV infection mutating to FIP is greatly increased!!!! FCoV is a very common viral infection in cats. Even cats with FCoV who test titre negative can develop FIP.



Clare Ferris said:


> A byb may find it easier to buy a kitten from another byb but it all started with a reg breeder how else would that breed have got into the country i.e sibbies were brought in from Russia and america 8 yrs ago by a couple of reg breeders. It spirals out of control i.e you sell as a pet the cat gets pregnant and that owners sells them to maybe what they feel are loving homes and one of them could be a byb and then they get bred and so on etc. Wheter it is a big problem or not it is still a problem.


All that makes a HUGE assumption that the registered breeder selling the pedigree kitten operated a stringent vetting of prospective new owners and that failed. Unless you were there at that point of sale you can not comment on that.

The problem bengal breeders have now, is not from bybs although I am sure they form apart of the issue, but from breeders with a registered prefix, who got into breeding bengals for the wrong reasons. They saw £/$ based on the high price of breeding cats and the easy to use marketing hook. I am sure coming in with all the right answers etc, registered prefix claims of wanting to do it all right and that tired old "further the breed" line, they convinced a reputable breeder to sell them active cats. Now to recoup their initial outlay asap they sell to whoever, they are not interest in the homes the kittens go to just as long as they have the cash. Those sorts of people attract like for like and so the problem grows and gets out of control. In those situations EN makes no difference!!! Your theory of bybs assumes they are all unregistered trying to do it on the cheap and con a responsible caring breeder with stringent vetting procedures out of a pet cat that they then abuse.

I have not seen any evidence to state I am harming a kitten by en.[/quote]

Nor is there any hard and fast evidence out there to say it categorically doesn't. If they were, then vets would be more willing to practice EN, when in reality those happy to do it are few and far between. One has to wonder why ? and why you are so keen to rebuke people for not listening to the experts on other subjects but are disregarding their opinions yourself in this instance because it suits you to do so.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm now closing this thread.


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