# How are you doing in the fight against the climate crisis?



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

This graphic has some really useful ideas and it's so simple but effective. I hope you find it useful as we can all make small impacts even though I know it feels a bit bonkers out there.

I'm somewhere in the Learning Zone and moving to the Growth Zone having spent a long time in Comfort. And it's a happier place in Learning and Growth for me.

*I hope we can keep this thread proactive, away from XR bashing, and politics as much as we can (even though how you vote and kick your MPs arse matters) and in Learning and Growth, it's not a place for denial as there's way too much evidence now, that huge carbon guzzling ship has sailed. And please be respectful and kind to each other. It's been a hellish 2 years, we're all a bit strung out on emotions and if not for each other then for our long suffering mods.*


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Hmmm. This is interesting. I live by the sea, we are by all accounts going to get a big wind farm off "our" beach - there is one just up the coast in Worthing. I have no issue with it - and you know, it gets windy here so if we can harness that, that's great. It will change our view, that's for sure, so no doubt there will be much opposition. 

On a "living my life in a better way" basis, well, I realistically in a normal week only drive my car (which is an ecoboost) to work and to the supermarket. Everywhere else I go is by power of my own legs - when we've gone out recently a few miles away, we've gone by foot to the train station, then on the train, then by foot again at the other end. 

I recycle a LOT (and even more after our visit to the recycling plant on Monday! Oh so interesting) and we have a water meter and a water butt and try to re-use as much stuff as possible. I'm not great though at "eco" cleaning products, I should look at that really. In terms of food waste, we thankfully have barely any as my slow cooker is very useful for using up a bendy carrot or two  

I think changes need to be easy to understand and implement. Take the recycling thing, for example, I think we are pretty good at recycling but still we learnt lots on our Monday trip and now my recycling behaviours have already changed - hopefully meaning that the amount I can contribute to recycling will increase. It's quite confusing. I don't know what the answer is long term - is it engaging with children and getting them interested in climate and environment and even cooking their own food rather than eating loads of ready meals which produce more plastic waste? Certainly things like going to school by power of their own legs rather than being driven? 

As for the graphic, I think I'm mostly in the Growth Zone (except for the "I practice gratitude to Mother Nature" - I do that every day, there is rarely a day that goes by that we don't visit the sea and be so thankful of the amazing place that we live) though I don't think I'm very "good" in terms of my behaviours if I look at what some other people do.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2021)

I use low energy light bulbs, do alot of recycling, give old clothes and belongings to charity so someone else gets use out of them and I walk alot as opposed to using public transport, taxis or a car or motorcycle.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> Hmmm. This is interesting. I live by the sea, we are by all accounts going to get a big wind farm off "our" beach - there is one just up the coast in Worthing. I have no issue with it - and you know, it gets windy here so if we can harness that, that's great. It will change our view, that's for sure, so no doubt there will be much opposition.
> 
> On a "living my life in a better way" basis, well, I realistically in a normal week only drive my car (which is an ecoboost) to work and to the supermarket. Everywhere else I go is by power of my own legs - when we've gone out recently a few miles away, we've gone by foot to the train station, then on the train, then by foot again at the other end.
> 
> ...


I had a visit years ago to a recycling plant and it was fascinating. I think it needs to be mandatory.

I get the impression from my teenage god daughters that it's much more on the agenda in now and maybe we're the generations that got forgotten and those before us because we didn't know any better and changing behaviours is harder. I recall the hole in the ozone layer and thinking I didn't want to give up my hairspray... how silly! But also having worked on a series of educational materials for a well known academic publisher and these books go into schools worldwide, I can confidently say that the education is getting through to the kids and in turn my client the publisher in their own actions. One can hardly publish and not show examples. I think kids are less of the issue but the generations before and hopefully they will be teaching from the bottom up. I hope so. (and I'm deliberately avoiding the topic of birth strike and others for my own mental health!)

And cleaning materials.. Ethical Superstore do giant packs of most products but avoid Method and Ecover who are owned by S C Johnson who are one of the worse polluters. All are on the Ethical Consumer boycott list. Bio D and Ecoleaf are good brands. That said when we ran out of things during lockdown we were really frugal about what we replaced as lots of products do more than one job and discovered laundry eggs which are great.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

The always brilliant East Ruston Cottages shared this today. I'd add - ask if you really really need it?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm all over the map on that graphic. And it depends on the day too. 
Some days I just get overwhelmed and I don't care anymore, other days I'm the queen of green. 

I'd say I practice gratitude to Mother Nature every day, every moment, but I don't know how that helps practically. I don't even know what horizontal hostility is, but I'm pretty sure I don't do it. I'm not a fan of "don't" goals anyway. 

Where we live it's easy to be sustainable in some ways, near impossible in others. I can't help but drive every day. Electric cars are not affordable right now, and with the distances I would be driving and the lack of chargers not feasible anyway. I do have a smaller car that uses less gas and I keep it maintained to make sure its gas mileage stays low. 
I won't stop flying. I think travel is an integral part of global citizenship in many ways, and it opens your mind and heart to other people. I don't fly often though.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm sort of forced into not travelling far since I had a stroke and we decide to give up the car I use a mobility scooter, everything we need is within one mile of us anything else we need I admit to buying in line and to be honest the thought of going very far doesn't appeal to me anymore.

We recycle as much as we can and try to cut down on waste.

On saying all that, I'm not spoiling what I have left of my life If I really want something I'll have it.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

For me the problem I find is that I’m not a wealthy women im a single income household so it’s tight. A lot of things I would like to do I can’t afford; shop local, electric car, having a greener home (I rent and literally have no instillation)

I don’t fly or eat meat. I may fly again in the future but it would likely be a one off. I re cycle although I’m not always sure I get it right. My goal for this term is to run to more appointments.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Oh I do mainly shop at Sainsbury’s.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I’m a mix really. On that graph I’d say stepping out of Fear and into the Learning zone.

I don’t eat meat, eggs or dairy but buy for my boys… opting only for British and free range.

I do drive a lot but need to reduce that for sure.

I recycle religiously but our collections are lacking in certain areas. I use plant milks and they don’t accept the cartons …. and there’s nowhere locally I can take them, otherwise I would.

I have 3 compost bins and rainwater butts but should increase rain collection off sheds roofs too.

I try to keep as much out of landfill at the recycling centre but again, there are areas they could improve our options.

I use Freecycle.org to pass on useful household stuff I no longer need.

I can definitely do better though.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

It is how I live normally. Very simply as my age and income and beliefs teach me. There is truly no more I can do given my limits re shopping. ie housebound and on a small island. It was not chosen for ethical reasons; just how I vastly prefer to live. At my age and with my background it really is second nature. And eg the no washing machine is not my choice. I have one but cannot get it plumbed in. About to order a camping washing machine for winter as washing sheets outside in a huge bucket...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I would say I'm in the Learning Zone, although I do find it difficult not to become frustrated with others when I see so many people around me not even making small changes that require little effort.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

simplysardonic said:


> I would say I'm in the Learning Zone, although I do find it difficult not to become frustrated with others when I see so many people around me not even making small changes that require little effort.


We were always taught to keep our eyes on our own page, rather than elsewhere. I have enough to do in my own small sphere and nothing more I can do. and in fact it leads me to greater efforts. But then I am alone; and maybe others can lead more by example than by anything else.

And I refuse to let others disturb my peace.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Thank goodness buzzwords arent bad for the environment or else that chart would be an environmental disaster!LOL:Hilarious

I think Im like most people...I try to do what I can but I could always do better.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> For me the problem I find is that I'm not a wealthy women im a single income household so it's tight. A lot of things I would like to do I can't afford; shop local, electric car, having a greener home (I rent and literally have no instillation)
> 
> I don't fly or eat meat. I may fly again in the future but it would likely be a one off. I re cycle although I'm not always sure I get it right. My goal for this term is to run to more appointments.


Similar for myself. I live in a rural location so driving is a must (there is no public transport). I drive a diesel van (kitted out for the dogs so we can attend training events) & there is no way I could afford an electric car. The prices are unbelievable & way out the price range of most people.

My house was built in 1890 & is pretty well insulated, but I have a wood burner which I think is now considered bad. I buy one tank of oil a year for heating, etc but if that runs out then that's it. I don't have the heating on much & if I do then it's on minimum.

I recycle alot & never have food waste ... vegetable scraps, etc go to the chickens.

I buy second hand clothes mainly (except undies & outdoor stuff), I always check FB market place, Ebay, etc for stuff before buying new but if I do buy new than I use Amazon (whcih i know are a sh*tty company) but their prices are good, it means I can shop at home.

I have tried many eco washing powders & maybe I get dirtier than most but I have never found one that is as effective as regular washing detergent..

Maybe I can do better but tbh I try to do my bit but I'm not stressing about it like I used to.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Similar for myself. I live in a rural location so driving is a must (there is no public transport). I drive a diesel van (kitted out for the dogs so we can attend training events) & there is no way I could afford an electric car. The prices are unbelievable & way out the price range of most people.
> 
> My house was built in 1890 & is pretty well insulated, but I have a wood burner which I think is now considered bad. I buy one tank of oil a year for heating, etc but if that runs out then that's it. I don't have the heating on much & if I do then it's on minimum.
> 
> ...


I'm going work clothes shopping for the first time in years tomorrow I rarely buy new stuff and wear until its falling apart.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxer123 said:


> I'm going work clothes shopping for the first time in years tomorrow I rarely buy new stuff and wear until its falling apart.


I treated myself to a dog sport jacket for Christmas that came for the Netherland. OMG, it is amazing & so practical for what I need. Those sorts of things I do spend money on as you don't get them second hand (or unless I buy ex army water proofs which are the BEST) ..but normal clothes I buy second hand.

I went to my sisters for Christmas & we always dress up On the day. I had a lovely sequinned dress form Monsoon. Second hand but new (with tags) that I paid £6.90 for (inc PP). My sister as amazed as her Ted Baker dress was a couple of hundred quid. Tbh i rarely wear things like that so no point spending a fortune on them .


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Cleo38 said:


> Similar for myself. I live in a rural location so driving is a must (there is no public transport). I drive a diesel van (kitted out for the dogs so we can attend training events) & there is no way I could afford an electric car. The prices are unbelievable & way out the price range of most people.
> 
> My house was built in 1890 & is pretty well insulated, but I have a wood burner which I think is now considered bad. I buy one tank of oil a year for heating, etc but if that runs out then that's it. I don't have the heating on much & if I do then it's on minimum.
> 
> Maybe I can do better but tbh I try to do my bit but I'm not stressing about it like I used to.


As I live on a small island. when I was able to go over as we say; the ferryman takes us to the slipway in a minibus. I had a car that was parked at the quay over the ocean but it died. 
When I went fast to hospital over a year ago, it was by chopper and back by bus to the pier.
So now I just stay home. Supposed to have been given an island car ie that is fine but not subject to testing but they have let me down .., as I cannot walk far at all I am housebound ie in prison.... sigh…
Groceries come in every two weeks for me from the mainland as there is a specific shopping ferry for folk every week as we have no shop, and we get postal deliveries a couple or three times a week. Apart from, just the post but these days that is grand.

I live rented; a demountable dwelling and there is a solid fuelstove that heats the water. I burn turf bought from my neighbour. That way the money stays on the island. Cooking is bottled gas; a cylinder lasts three months. Like you I use little heating and it serves many purposes

If I buy coal, it is the processed eggs.

Hate overheated places.

I think remote places do far better than cities; and this is about as remote as can be, Love it...


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Well in my mission to improve what I do after my recycling visit, I have today tracked down the “soft plastics” bins in Tesco and Sainsburys (on the hunt for something for Oscar). So I’m pleased about that as I can now recycle bread bags etc.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Oh gosh! As of two days ago the soft plastics is at all large Tesco stores and it includes pet food pouches! Wow! the link is from March but the scheme was expanded this week. The list of what you can recycle in soft plastics is huge. I feel a bit excited about it.

https://www.tescoplc.com/news/2021/...network-of-recycling-points-for-soft-plastic/


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

I think I'm all over that graph! 

I've not had children, the planet is over-populated with consumers. 
(But the environment was not in the top 5 reasons why I didn't have children, so it wasn't any kind of altruistic lifestyle choice). 
I shop at charity shops.
I know I could do better. 

I do try and recycle as much as I can, however, I see the amount of clinical waste I have to throw away at work that gets burned and I just despair at it. It's the same with other industrial waste, individuals barely have an impact in comparison. I think large corporations need massive regulation when it comes to their waste production.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

I think the same @Jackie C - when our instruments for deliveries and sections changed to be single use instead of autoclaving, I thought it wasn't the best choice. The amount of stuff we chuck in hospital is scary. The waste with covid is mad in our out patient department (antenatal clinic). Each day two masks and two visors each as they are sessional, then an apron and gloves with each patient - even if you're only sitting talking to them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Isolette said:


> As I live on a small island. when I was able to go over as we say; the ferryman takes us to the slipway in a minibus. I had a car that was parked at the quay over the ocean but it died.
> When I went fast to hospital over a year ago, it was by chopper and back by bus to the pier.
> So now I just stay home. Supposed to have been given an island car ie that is fine but not subject to testing but they have let me down .., as I cannot walk far at all I am housebound ie in prison.... sigh…
> Groceries come in every two weeks for me from the mainland as there is a specific shopping ferry for folk every week as we have no shop, and we get postal deliveries a couple or three times a week. Apart from, just the post but these days that is grand.
> ...


 Wow, sounds perfect living on a small island. I did look at moving to the Shetland Islands despite never having been there as it looked amazing & I would definitely have been suited to the lifestyle. I worked with someone who was from there so was always quizzing her.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Cleo38 said:


> Wow, sounds perfect living on a small island. I did look at moving to the Shetland Islands despite never having been there as it looked amazing & I would definitely have been suited to the lifestyle. I worked with someone who was from there so was always quizzing her.


I lived ten years on a small Orkney island before I came to Ireland and when I stopped the work I was doing here? checked out all the West Coast islands in turn. 
Thought of Shetland at one stage too.. Islands have been a passion since I was about sixteen. 
This one is depopulating and few services but it suits me perfectly and should last my lifetime. Others have so many services etc you may as well be on the mainland. 
The simplicity and peace and privacy I have here. No one fusses. After I made it clear that I did not want any old folk facilities etc.. lol...


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Isolette said:


> I lived ten years on a small Orkney island before I came to Ireland and when I stopped the work I was doing here? checked out all the West Coast islands in turn.
> Thought of Shetland at one stage too.. Islands have been a passion since I was about sixteen.
> This one is depopulating and few services but it suits me perfectly and should last my lifetime. Others have so many services etc you may as well be on the mainland.
> The simplicity and peace and privacy I have here. No one fusses. After I made it clear that I did not want any old folk facilities etc.. lol...


It sounds wonderful. I would miss a lot, it's not for me. But, sometimes, with the stress of work, etc, it sounds a perfect retreat......


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Jackie C said:


> It sounds wonderful. I would miss a lot, it's not for me. But, sometimes, with the stress of work, etc, it sounds a perfect retreat......


The thing is it is not a retreat. Period. It is a totally different way of life to be embraced as such. Sure there are things to be missed. But there are wherever we live. I miss shopping.... lol,. When I came to Ireland I had not been near a shop for years. Oh the pleasure of a well stocked supermarket.. lol...And when they get things wrong when I email my list in... Just now trying to get dried milk eg marvel to supplement milk...

If you see it as a retreat? Folk do and they do not last. A whole life style . In Orkney I had chickens a goat for milk and cheese etc etc etc. Jacobs sheep for wool etc.

We have summer people here. As we did in Orkney. We had folk buy a house in summer - then when winter came they vanished. That first autumnal gale.

For me it is the way I love living. In its entirety. Warts and all as they say. I would never go back over to live. And just now it is the safest place in the safest country in the world. As my family in Canada keep assuring me.

One day I was chatting at the laneside with a visitor and my neighbour the ferryman and he paid me such a compliment when she asked if I lived here full time.. He said that they soon realised I was not soft, but a bit tough ,like. . lol. 
I write a weblog
islandanchoress,blogspot.com

But of course the UK govt kindly pay me a pension in my old age.. lol... Great people...


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Isolette said:


> The thing is it is not a retreat. Period. It is a totally different way of life to be embraced as such. Sure there are things to be missed. But there are wherever we live. I miss shopping.... lol,. When I came to Ireland I had not been near a shop for years. Oh the pleasure of a well stocked supermarket.. lol...And when they get things wrong when I email my list in... Just now trying to get dried milk eg marvel to supplement milk...
> 
> If you see it as a retreat? Folk do and they do not last. A whole life style . In Orkney I had chickens a goat for milk and cheese etc etc etc. Jacobs sheep for wool etc.
> 
> ...


Oh, I get it's not a retreat, it's a lifestyle choice. Sorry if it sounded patronising or stupid, that wasn't my intent, but I couldn't think of another way of putting it.  It sounds wonderful, but just something I couldn't do.


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## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Jackie C said:


> Oh, I get it's not a retreat, it's a lifestyle choice. Sorry if it sounded patronising or stupid, that wasn't my intent, but I couldn't think of another way of putting it.  It sounds wonderful, but just something I couldn't do.


Hey it is OK and I meant it for others as much as you.... I know how stressed and overbusy life out there is. You are NOT patronising or stooopid. Just seeking peace. 
And yes, not for everyone. The art in life is finding that out. 
I remember one summer day in Orkney when I was at the beach chatting to day visitors and they were rightly raving about the sheer loveiiness and how wonderful to live there. My neighbour and I winked at each other, thinking of three day gales up to a hundred and twenty miles an hour. 
But the beauty is here FOR refreshment as well as full time. 
For me it has always been the lifestyle I sought. Hoping for many years more here. 
They are so funny re old age though; wanting to tidy us all away in prisons... lol... aka homes, Shudders. 
There are problems here as there are everywhere. That is always so. But here I can choose who and what comes into my peace. 
And I am thrilled that the latest needy cat arrived here.... lol... My role as a cat lady. 
I could not live town or city . Just could not.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

The learning zone for me. I knew I could do better and by far, the biggest area of growth is learning about companies and brands. 

For example Coca Cola is the worlds biggest polluter; how Asda’s clothing range uses cotton from Uzbekistan which had forced labour and pesticides. I didn’t realise how badly rated Tea Pigs are. That sort of thing or how awful my energy company are. I am making changes and it’s good.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I don’t know if anyone saw GMB this morning Laura the meteorologist broke down in tears regarding climate change and the melting of the ice caps. We should be very worried .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't know if anyone saw GMB this morning Laura the meteorologist broke down in tears regarding climate change and the melting of the ice caps. We should be very worried .


I don't watch daytime tv but yes, we should be as worried about this as the pandemic. Enjoy life whilst we have it is how I think of it now because one will get us and right now it's the climate emergency. Yet the prevalent attitude is that it's down to some higher being - politicians mostly - but we put them there. How we've still got the worst party in power when it comes to environment says it all when it comes to how important it isn't and how it should be, to us and for the next generations.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

List of MPs who voted for and against the bill to allow sewage to be disposed in the water supply. If your MP voted for it, give them a soaking over it

https://evolvepolitics.com/heres-a-...to-continue-dumping-raw-sewage-in-our-rivers/


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

It's been terrible down here but the water company have said it's cheaper to just pay the fines from dumping raw sewage into our sea than to find an alternative. We have had some days where the sea has looked disgusting. When the site is working again (resource limit reached, you've broken the interwebby thing @MollySmith !!) I will check how our MP voted.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> It's been terrible down here but the water company have said it's cheaper to just pay the fines from dumping raw sewage into our sea than to find an alternative. We have had some days where the sea has looked disgusting. When the site is working again (resource limit reached, you've broken the interwebby thing @MollySmith !!) I will check how our MP voted.


Woohooo I broke the interweb!

Actually bloody good, shows how important it is. And so it should be. It's a sorry state of affairs when the law the EU plut in place to protect our wildlife and we were told would be upheld post Brexit is reversed by greed. Humankind is awfully unkind.


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## Lyracollie (Mar 20, 2014)

I would like to do better, but I currently live in a house with multiple people and we do unfortunately produce a lot more waste than I'd like. If I ever get my own place I plan on going as plastic and waste free as possible. 

I had a look at bio-safe detergents for washing machines the other day and they were £12 for a small bottle, surely if they want people to make the swap then they need to lower the prices of things like this.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Well I've tweeted our MP:

Dear @NickGibbUK would you enlighten your seaside constituents why you voted against the Lords Amendment 45 placing legal requirement on water companies to improve their sewerage systems. Not sure how long the sea will be as blue as in your banner pic when it's full of raw waste.

His banner pic is a beautiful blue sea and sky.

Thanks for the link @MollySmith - I know that they are under the whip re: voting but they are still able to vote another way or indeed explain why they've voted a certain way which may seem at odds with what would be expected.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lyracollie said:


> I would like to do better, but I currently live in a house with multiple people and we do unfortunately produce a lot more waste than I'd like. If I ever get my own place I plan on going as plastic and waste free as possible.
> 
> I had a look at bio-safe detergents for washing machines the other day and they were £12 for a small bottle, surely if they want people to make the swap then they need to lower the prices of things like this.


I've looked at products that are more eco or have less/better packaging & the prices are staggering in some instances. There is a great shop ina nearby town that sells pulses, pastas, etc that you take your own container to so avoiding unnecessary packaging but the pircs are three times (or more) more than that of a supermarket. I realise that they are an independent shop & don't have access to the bulk buying that big stores have but it still means that this type of shopping is just not affordable for many.

Same with shampoos/conditioners/moisturisers in non plastic containers .... just so expensive


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well I've tweeted our MP:
> 
> Dear @NickGibbUK would you enlighten your seaside constituents why you voted against the Lords Amendment 45 placing legal requirement on water companies to improve their sewerage systems. Not sure how long the sea will be as blue as in your banner pic when it's full of raw waste.
> 
> ...


Agree I hope he explains himself.

And apologies to PF for bringing back a bit of dead thread. I didn't want to create a new one and for probably obvious reasons didn't want to add to the one created by Samuel Smiles…


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## Lyracollie (Mar 20, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I've looked at products that are more eco or have less/better packaging & the prices are staggering in some instances. There is a great shop ina nearby town that sells pulses, pastas, etc that you take your own container to so avoiding unnecessary packaging but the pircs are three times (or more) more than that of a supermarket. I realise that they are an independent shop & don't have access to the bulk buying that big stores have but it still means that this type of shopping is just not affordable for many.
> 
> Same with shampoos/conditioners/moisturisers in non plastic containers .... just so expensive


We have a store similiar to that in the next town over, I think it's a great idea and the owner seemed lovely but as you say everything is far too expensive for most people to keep up with. 
Even popular stores like Lush that sell refillable shampoo containers seem extortionate.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Here's a list of refill shops in the U.K.
https://ecothriftyliving.com/2019/10/over-100-zero-waste-shops-in-the-uk.html

though do Google refill shops near you as it's missing 4 shops near me!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lyracollie said:


> We have a store similiar to that in the next town over, I think it's a great idea and the owner seemed lovely but as you say everything is far too expensive for most people to keep up with.
> Even popular stores like Lush that sell refillable shampoo containers seem extortionate.


Yes, I was looking at their products as I really wanted to buy plastic free stuff but the prices were unbelievable


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

You can also buy in bigger sizes to reduce plastic - Ethical Superstore sells 5 litres of most products etc. But avoid Method and Ecover as they are owned by S C Johnson who are very very far from eco-friendly 
https://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Had a big shed clear out and managed to save quite a lot of items from landfill.

The local recycling centre (tip) has a book collection container and one for reusable household items.

In the past, everything would have had to go in the landfill container.

Also managed to give away half a dozen useable items on Freecycle so they will have a second life.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Article in The Guardian today on recycling and furnishing with links. We've cleared loads using these sites and I've managed to get a gorgeous Abbess desk on Freecycle which I still use for my business.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/23/buy-more-stuff-skips-freecycle-save-money


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Fergal Sharkey on #torysewageparty which is really hitting Twitter at the moment. *yes this is a hashtag but with good reason as the list of MPs who voted to allow companies to dump waste in our rivers was predominantly Tory.*

It is certainly worth tagging and tweeting your MP to ask why, lots of folk supporting each other in this effort to hold MPs to account. It's also interesting to note that water companies are privately owned - Southern Water is one - so why aren't shareholders paying for the disposal of sewage.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Recycling plastic does not work PM tells children

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59039155

Yes I totally agree cutting down in the use of and one day eradicating plastic entirely (blue sky thinking going on there Bojo)
But telling children they're wasting their time by recycling 
Can't be right, can it?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Recycling plastic does not work PM tells children
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59039155
> 
> ...


I think...... in fairness to BJ, he's fluffed his lines again and he means less single use plastic and the media have gone ...._ ooh soundbite that's a bit controversial_. Luckily. think children of today are more savvy but goodness this must be sad to read if you're a youngster and worried about this. Poor kids.

*I should really send a copy of the latest book I've designed for the AQA syllabus that's all about climate friendly to Number 10. It's Stage 2 so he might understand it.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Panorama on Coca Cola & plastic pollution. The soft drinks industry uses *470 BILLION *single use plastic bottles per year Most are not recycled, they are out there killing animals, fish, poisoning our environment. Sell soft drinks in money back glass bottles! This is maybe what Boris means.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0010zxs/panorama-cocacolas-100-billion-bottle-problem

There's more on the dodgy ethics of this company on The Ethical Consumer here


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> New Panorama on Coca Cola & plastic pollution.


This was so interesting and eye opening

Maybe I'm being a little naive, or even, more likely, a little stupid
But
Why not just go back to glass bottles? I think we're all used to using bottle banks or other glass recycling projects or even take them back to the shop, for sending back to the manufacturer, when new stock is delivered (yes I'm old enough to remember getting 1d for a returned pop bottle, non left laying around in those days, i remember gangs of kids, Banding together, with loads of pop bottles in someone's pram, the pennies used to buy sweets) , I'm sure I remember one of those bbc info programmes (potters wheel, morning train etc) showing milk being delivered, empty bottles collected, being sterilised, refilled, ad infinitum
Surely glass, whilst costing a bit more per bottle, is the most recyclable thing in the world, even broken it can be melted into new bottles and reused


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Viewer discretion advised (few bits make you jump)
But 
This award winning short film is brilliant

Hybrids 
_When marine life has to adapt to the pollution around it, the rules of _survival change ...........


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

When we visited the recycling facility (I know, I'm sad but it was great!) and glass is actually recycled by very few recycling plants. It's very expensive to buy recycled glass, apparently, to then use. At the end of it all, it's about money I guess


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I think there is also a responsibility on the consumer to return the glass. But…. Coca Cola have such an awful history of ethics and green washing from palm oil, worker rights, tax avoidance it's just incredible that they are allowed to trade.

The other trouble is box ticking. Pepsi who are equally guilty and Coca Cola, McDonalds et al will work towards all packing from recycled products because that's the guidance but it absolves them from what happens to the packaging next. In short not their problem…. Unless consumers stop buying but unfortunately people don't. *sigh*

And yes plastic is cheaper and easier to ship. Glass breaks.

More here 
https://thedieline.com/blog/2020/7/...ig-beverage-brands-ditch-the-plastic-bottles?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> When we visited the recycling facility (I know, I'm sad but it was great!) and glass is actually recycled by very few recycling plants. It's very expensive to buy recycled glass, apparently, to then use. At the end of it all, it's about money I guess


yes. Also see sewage as we said. It's so sad that our planet is seen as too expensive to save.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Oh @MollySmith  It makes me so very sad. Sometimes I feel like there's no point to keep trying to recycle/reuse. I mean, Southern Water are chucking poo in the sea 90 seconds from my front door. What can I do about it? Will they listen? Nope.

I do of course know that I will carry on with the little bits of behaviour that I hope contribute to a marginally better world. Flipping heck though.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

We don't deserve our planet it's screaming at us to stopped abusing it and we aren't listening, so let it kill us with it gases, earthquakes, volcanos and it's storms, then when we have all gone, it can in time heal it's self.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> Viewer discretion advised (few bits make you jump)
> But
> This award winning short film is brilliant
> 
> ...


wow, that was super disturbing and yes...brilliant!

TBH one of the (many!) reasons Im glad I dont have kids is the thought of what kind of world they will be left with. There is a good chance that the mass extinction of the oceans will happen within the lifetime of kids born today and they will be struggling to find resources and live through more and more extreme weather conditions. And yet so many countries refuse to reduce emissions or improve their footprint.
I know people moan about the insulate Britain protesters/ecowarrior types but I really do think that that level of panic is warranted!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Happy Paws2 said:


> We don't deserve our planet it's screaming at us to stopped abusing it and we aren't listening, so let it kill us with it gases, earthquakes, volcanos and it's storms, then when we have all gone, it can in time heal it's self.


yup I agree.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> wow, that was super disturbing and yes...brilliant!
> 
> TBH one of the (many!) reasons Im glad I dont have kids is the thought of what kind of world they will be left with. There is a good chance that the mass extinction of the oceans will happen within the lifetime of kids born today and they will be struggling to find resources and live through more and more extreme weather conditions. And yet so many countries refuse to reduce emissions or improve their footprint.
> I know people moan about the insulate Britain protesters/ecowarrior types but I really do think that that level of panic is warranted!


I agree.. whilst I'm childless not by choice, I'm sometimes a little relieved but still worried. I get a bit frustrated by XR but I can understand why they feel they have to. So many including Prince Charles say to get people on side by not being so disruptive but if the world won't listen to Saint David Attenborough then one can see why action is needed.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh @MollySmith  It makes me so very sad. Sometimes I feel like there's no point to keep trying to recycle/reuse. I mean, Southern Water are chucking poo in the sea 90 seconds from my front door. What can I do about it? Will they listen? Nope.
> 
> I do of course know that I will carry on with the little bits of behaviour that I hope contribute to a marginally better world. Flipping heck though.


It's so grrrrrrr...... and not as if we can change water suppliers. However positively the House of Lords have kicked arse. I hope they keep kicking,


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Terrorised my family not to use any electricity or water , detergents, etc in vain…
Recycling stuff , trying to waste not , use the car less etc… go for holidays just locally…
Ditched ironing… nearly…
That is not much …I know…


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Better than Boris


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Pawscrossed said:


> Better than Boris
> 
> View attachment 478782


That's most people!

How about being better than Westminster? No wonder the Government want to shut Channel 4 down or control it. This was Dispatches tonight
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/how-green-is-the-government-dispatches/on-demand/72915-001


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

We need to take to the streets en masse and Force governments to act.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Jacknmack10 said:


> We need to take to the streets en masse and Force governments to act.


During a pandemic? Not sure that's the best idea.


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

MilleD said:


> During a pandemic? Not sure that's the best idea.


. I don't think we have many options left, we're in a terrible predicament & time is no longer on our side. I'd like to think protest organisers urge protesters to wear masks etc. 
On the subject of masks, did you see the photo of maskless Johnson sat by the side of 95 years old David Attenborough? That man is totally irresponsible.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Jacknmack10 said:


> We need to take to the streets en masse and Force governments to act.


yes and no. In any other circumstances I'd say it's worth thinking of but it's incredibly dangerous in the current pandemic. People need to feel safe and it'll play into the hands of climate change deniers who have a very large presence. Best action I think in my amateur opinion long term is to vote and keep shaming/demanding from MPs and remove them from power at the polls but for there to be a credible alternative to elect.

At the last general election it wasn't their environmental polices that got the Tories in as they had the worst eco manifesto- that's partly my judgement because I studied them as I'm not a one party for life - but also the judgment of qualified climate scientists. The difference one hopes is that the next election that important and much forgotten Earth in which we place a huge amount of faith in to keep going might actually be on the public voting agenda. I live in hope, I'm old enough to remember when we only had a hole in the ozone layer and have watched successive governments ignore climate change until we reach emergency level.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Maybe they forgot people might be looking for leading by example. This is also astonishing. The food menu at COP26 and it's carbon footprint

https://www.bigissue.com/news/envir...stainable-dish-at-glasgow-climate-conference/


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)




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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

I'm well into the growth zone. I use natural products where I can to not taint soil or water. Cruelty free. Been vegan a year and half now I think. I buy local where I can and avoid plastics as much as possible. For example when getting veg I'll always opt for loose rather than pre packed. I grow my own veg too, well mostly things like beans, potatoes, salad stuff and pig veggies.

I keep 'wild' areas in my garden to encourage wildlife and plant bee friendly plants too. We also have a few water butts for watering. I'm thinking of doing composting but I don't quite know where to put the compost bin. Other than the lawnmower we have no electrical tools (haven't had any petrol ones for years). Outdoor lights are all solar powered.

I recycle and pick up litter. I do try and take part in activism/awareness when I can but currently due to disability and COVID it's mostly online stuff rather than boots on the ground. Maybe one day.

It's quite disheartening when politicians go to these meetings in their privet vets to talk about climate crisis then follow it up by eating a meat based meal. It's like their not taking any of it seriously.

Sorry for the ramble

Also if anyone's interested in where their food comes from and the impact it has on the environment/climate: https://vbcamp.org/GV


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....scar-famine-drought-un-news-b1950604.html?amp

This is the first I have heard about this how heartbreaking. It is the wealthiest countries causing climate change and the poorest suffering.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Extreme recycling .....


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I have just received shampoo and conditioner bars, plus a deodorant cream in a tin to try.

They are all palm oil, plastic, sls, paraben, vegan and cruelty free.

First use today … so far impressed.

Interested to see how long they last and therefore value for money in comparison to previous “non-eco” products I’ve been using.

Happy thanksgiving pay out more to be greener though.

Not sure my boys will join me though.

Going to consider seriously the green replacements for the other household products I use currently too.

Last shopping trip I bought loo roll made from recycled paper (with a paper wrapper rather than plastic) but do need to check if it’s truly greener.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> I have just received shampoo and conditioner bars, plus a deodorant cream in a tin to try.
> 
> They are all palm oil, plastic, sls, paraben, vegan and cruelty free.
> 
> ...


Just so you know re shampoo/conditioner bars, it will take a few weeks for your hair and scalp to adjust. Also rather than rubbing the bar on your hair, lather it and put the suds on your head, can help prevent your hair feeling waxy


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> Just so you know re shampoo/conditioner bars, it will take a few weeks for your hair and scalp to adjust. Also rather than rubbing the bar on your hair, lather it and put the suds on your head, can help prevent your hair feeling waxy


Thanks 

I had been using a different shampoo bar for a few weeks which didn't leave any residue and on first use, no issues with the new one.

The new company advises using their conditioner bar sparingly on the tips to avoid a waxy residue, which seemed to work this morning.

I've looked online at the little net bags you can buy to hang them in the shower cubicle (as opposed to being left festering in a pool of water in a soap dish ) and rather than buy any, I shall make some out of voile offcuts I have. Will help with lathering too I think 

I use a magnetic holder for the normal soap bar at the bathroom and kitchen sinks, but the metal magnet seems too big in comparison to the size of these eco soaps.

Thinking too if maybe drilling a hole through the middle, using the little ribbons often inside clothes to stop them slipping off hangers and turning them into "soap on a rope".

After 14+ hours, the deodorant has impressed me.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

IF our new local milkman finally manages to find me (don't ask! ), I will be switching to them for my oat drink and fruit juices. They also do fruit and veg boxes, washing up liquid in glass bottles _and _their refills, same for laundry detergent, so they could end up with a decent order from me.

I also plan on getting eco friendly toothpaste when my current tube is running low.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> After 14+ hours, the deodorant has impressed me.


I use 2 natural deodorants, once just a ball of that rock stuff. I use that when I come out the shower (if I remember)

I also use mainly mornings a cream one, that's supposed to be ethical. I just like my armpits smelling of strawberries amongst other scents.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

While researching soap and shampoo bars came across this site … some interesting reading. Just these two screenshots have made me more aware.

Will be looking in more detail at what they say on their website about all the companies and their products. So many now slap the word Vegan on the label of a few products and we assume all is hunky dorey … I think many of them are far from green or vegan as a company.

I will be going through all my products now and finding truly green alternatives.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> While researching soap and shampoo bars came across this site … some interesting reading. Just these two screenshots have made me more aware.
> 
> Will be looking in more detail at what they say on their website about all the companies and their products. So many now slap the word Vegan on the label of a few products and we assume all is hunky dorey … I think many of them are far from green or vegan as a company.
> 
> ...


I like weleda, never thought lush was that ethical but shampoo bars are amazing from there. Can't get on with Faith in Nature products and Neal Yards I just thought was influencer popular. You learn something new everyday!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> While researching soap and shampoo bars came across this site … some interesting reading. Just these two screenshots have made me more aware.
> 
> Will be looking in more detail at what they say on their website about all the companies and their products. So many now slap the word Vegan on the label of a few products and we assume all is hunky dorey … I think many of them are far from green or vegan as a company.
> 
> ...


im so pleased you found Ethical Consumer, they are my go to and the subscription is worth it.

Method and Ecover are others who green wash.

I use Who Gives a Crap as I wasn't able to find any eco loo rolls, happy to share my affiliation code but others are on here.
https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/home-garden/shopping-guide/toilet-paper


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> I use 2 natural deodorants, once just a ball of that rock stuff. I use that when I come out the shower (if I remember)
> 
> I also use mainly mornings a cream one, that's supposed to be ethical. I just like my armpits smelling of strawberries amongst other scents.


Salt of the earth? If so I use that one too. Took a while for my body to 'detox' and get used to it but it works wonders and lasts such a long time.

While we're on the topic of deodorants, I also like Pure Chimp's deodorant balm. All natural, vegan and cruelty free, comes in a glass jar and smells like bubble gum. Downside is some people react to it as it contains bicarb. 5% of profit goes to charity too if I remember rightly. I've also used their lip balm and it's currently the only one I use. They also have a shampoo bar but I've never tried it. It contains beer and my skin and body reacts to wheat/barley so I thought best not.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> Method and Ecover are others who green wash.


Oh dear, I've been green washed  
Been using Ecover for a year now and thought it was ok.

Other than Smol, are there any brands that have eco friendly laundry? I've tried Eco egg which is ok for my clothes but I have guinea pigs on fleece and the egg isn't strong enough to get rid of pee/poo smell. I know about micro plastics but I can't win. Microplastics in water or cut down a forest with the knowledge of what phenols can do to the system. I have thought about paper bedding which I use for small furries but guinea pigs pee and poop a lot more.

Any ideas would be appreciated


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Engel98 said:


> Oh dear, I've been green washed
> Been using Ecover for a year now and thought it was ok.
> 
> Other than Smol, are there any brands that have eco friendly laundry? I've tried Eco egg which is ok for my clothes but I have guinea pigs on fleece and the egg isn't strong enough to get rid of pee/poo smell. I know about micro plastics but I can't win. Microplastics in water or cut down a forest with the knowledge of what phenols can do to the system. I have thought about paper bedding which I use for small furries but guinea pigs pee and poop a lot more.
> ...


easily done! You have to look really hard for that detail on their website.

This link might be helpful. I use Bio-D as a local cooperative food store does refills but i have used Faith In Nature.
https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/home-garden/shopping-guide/ethical-laundry-detergents


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> Salt of the earth?


No not that one but they are all about the same and last forever...am going to get just a ball one from a stall at our farmers market if this deodorant ever runs out.

For nice smelling deodorant I use Wild. It's very much influencer led but love all the smells so far, it also lasts longer than 4-6 weeks. Love the metal tin in purple I chose. I mean who doesn't want armpits smelling of strawberries, or toffee apple? Am still unsure about deodorant that's in a jar not, in a stick. I just remember lush terrible deodorant..might have improved but they were terrible for me!


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

MollySmith said:


> yes and no. In any other circumstances I'd say it's worth thinking of but it's incredibly dangerous in the current pandemic. People need to feel safe and it'll play into the hands of climate change deniers who have a very large presence. Best action I think in my amateur opinion long term is to vote and keep shaming/demanding from MPs and remove them from power at the polls but for there to be a credible alternative to elect.
> 
> At the last general election it wasn't their environmental polices that got the Tories in as they had the worst eco manifesto- that's partly my judgement because I studied them as I'm not a one party for life - but also the judgment of qualified climate scientists. The difference one hopes is that the next election that important and much forgotten Earth in which we place a huge amount of faith in to keep going might actually be on the public voting agenda. I live in hope, I'm old enough to remember when we only had a hole in the ozone layer and have watched successive governments ignore climate change until we reach emergency level.


 I've been thinking carefully about this post and how best to reply as I don't wish to upset anyone. I accept your point that protesting isn't ideal during a pandemic but due to this governments reckless handling of COVID, according to experts, COVID is now endemic in the population so it's never going to be completely safe. The children led by Greta are doing it right imho. We're out of time so we must force politicians to act now by taking direct action. The climate emergency is the difining issue of our time, it's here, it's happening right now and it's only going to get much worse if we don't act with urgency to decarbonise.

We've been in a climate crisis for decades so the Tory manifesto doesn't matter at the polls to many peoples. Even after the sewage scandal they increased their lead by 2 points in the ipso Mori poll. I think we missed the best opportunity to remove politicians with our votes. We could be transitioning to a green economy now under the rather environmentally aware Jeremy Corbyn. The status quo saw him as a threat so the establishment systematically destroyed his reputation and even his own centrist MPs worked to undermine him. I believe this will always be the case if a progressive politician had a chance to lead this country. The green party are the obvious choice for the planet but I can't see us getting a green PM, can you? I really do think Greta is right by urging us to take to the streets.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Jacknmack10 said:


> I've been thinking carefully about this post and how best to reply as I don't wish to upset anyone. I accept your point that protesting isn't ideal during a pandemic but due to this governments reckless handling of COVID, according to experts, COVID is now endemic in the population so it's never going to be completely safe. The children led by Greta are doing it right imho. We're out of time so we must force politicians to act now by taking direct action. The climate emergency is the difining issue of our time, it's here, it's happening right now and it's only going to get much worse if we don't act with urgency to decarbonise.
> 
> We've been in a climate crisis for decades so the Tory manifesto doesn't matter at the polls to many peoples. Even after the sewage scandal they increased their lead by 2 points in the ipso Mori poll. I think we missed the best opportunity to remove politicians with our votes. We could be transitioning to a green economy now under the rather environmentally aware Jeremy Corbyn. The status quo saw him as a threat so the establishment systematically destroyed his reputation and even his own centrist MPs worked to undermine him. I believe this will always be the case if a progressive politician had a chance to lead this country. The green party are the obvious choice for the planet but I can't see us getting a green PM, can you? I really do think Greta is right by urging us to take to the streets.


Thank you for taking the time to rely with such care and I agree with much of what you say. I'm being very careful in my responses as threads like this have been known to get taken over my those who deny the emergency or have huge frustrations with people who obstruct. I'd hate for those sorts of replies to cause this thread to close but I wanted to say, yes I agree.

I have been moved to tears by some of the contributors to social media from COP26 who are from younger generations, it's incredible and I can't imagine the frustration that they must feel. However we are in a pandemic which makes it all so much more difficult and not so easy to agree. Our political system is hopeless and I do wonder how many tragedies have to happen to cause the planet to be the reason for change, I fear something major and much closer to home.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Arable farmers come in for a lot of stick due to using chemicals. There is a swing towards non till crop planting which means the land is not ploughed after harvest and a new crop is sown into the the stubble. Positives of this is that the earth is not disturbed, worms are allowed to break down the stubble and continue their valuable work in the soil, the soil remains in situ and doesn't get swept away in heavy rainfall as ploughed fields suffer from, the ground doesn't become compacted from heavy vehicle use, and less diesel is burnt - a tractor pulling a plough moves more slowly and uses up more fuel. Most importantly the carbon sequestered into the soil remains there and not released into the atmosphere as with ploughing. Downside is that more chemicals in the shape of weed killers need to be used to stop weed growth which ploughing used to remove to a large degree. Research is looking into the use of low growing companion crops to smother weed growth, however this is likely to affect yield. Allowing weeds to proliferate within a crop will greatly reduce yield and potentially more fuel will be used to separate the crop from weed seeds. There is a particularly nasty weed called black grass which is the dread of arable farmers and is particularly difficult to get rid of in fields.
I'm putting up a video from Harry's Farm which I thought was particularly interesting especially the last part where he raises a question of sequestration and what works best. I've been following Harry and his farm this year and have learned a lot about arable farming and low or no till methods as a way of preserving soil health and carbon sequestration. He is a very good speaker and talks to you not at you. He puts up a video every few weeks as to what has happened on the farm and the whys and wherefores of what he does


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

To be honest, I'm not doing anything now that's different to anything I've done over the last 30 years.
I switch things off when I'm not using them, my house is as insulated as a house can be, I only drive when I have too etc... not to protect the climate but to protect my bank balance!

I remain far from convinced that there is a climate "emergency/crisis" & the antics surrounding COP26 haven't helped....

Joe Biden flying his "entourage" along with 20 very large SUVs (averaging 8mpg) from the states to Glasgow & back.
Prince Charles flying to Rome on a private jet for a meeting with the Pope to discuss climate change 
Boris flying back from Glasgow on a private jet so he could have dinner with a friend.
Sadiq Khan driving 2-3 miles in his 5 litre DIESEL Range Rover, followed by his security in another RR, so he could walk his dogs in the park.
There are many more examples of this blatant hypocrisy which suggests, to me at least, that there is an us & them attitude at work (isn't there always).

The cost of Boris's current (unworkable) plans is forecast to be Trillions of pounds over the next decade or so & when the general public realise that it's going to be us paying for it with higher taxes, higher energy bills, higher food prices... I can guarantee that there will be a cooling in the current enthusiasm.

To me, the only way to solve this is through science, technology & innovation... we should be throwing money at that & not things like heat pumps that cost a fortune & don't work.
To back that up I give you Elon Musk/Tesla, it was he who kicked the car industry up the back side & got them investing in battery tech! Look where we are now, almost every car maker offers electric vehicles... 

A rather disjointed post I know.... sorry


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Don't apologies @Blackadder I appreciate your sentiments.

I got a bit exacerbated about this today.... an award for young people got me cross as I don't think anyone of that demographic needs it. All the educational material I work talk about climate change and I think by nature of their future, they know. It's the publishers who shop at Amazon, print offshore using air miles and waste resources in production that need the award as a kick up the bottom towards better practice.

And dog tv. A welfare issue that I'm sure Dog Chat will pick up on, but leaving the tv on all day. Fantastic energy saving there.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Arable farmers come in for a lot of stick due to using chemicals. There is a swing towards non till crop planting which means the land is not ploughed after harvest and a new crop is sown into the the stubble. Positives of this is that the earth is not disturbed, worms are allowed to break down the stubble and continue their valuable work in the soil, the soil remains in situ and doesn't get swept away in heavy rainfall as ploughed fields suffer from, the ground doesn't become compacted from heavy vehicle use, and less diesel is burnt - a tractor pulling a plough moves more slowly and uses up more fuel. Most importantly the carbon sequestered into the soil remains there and not released into the atmosphere as with ploughing. Downside is that more chemicals in the shape of weed killers need to be used to stop weed growth which ploughing used to remove to a large degree. Research is looking into the use of low growing companion crops to smother weed growth, however this is likely to affect yield. Allowing weeds to proliferate within a crop will greatly reduce yield and potentially more fuel will be used to separate the crop from weed seeds. There is a particularly nasty weed called black grass which is the dread of arable farmers and is particularly difficult to get rid of in fields.
> I'm putting up a video from Harry's Farm which I thought was particularly interesting especially the last part where he raises a question of sequestration and what works best. I've been following Harry and his farm this year and have learned a lot about arable farming and low or no till methods as a way of preserving soil health and carbon sequestration. He is a very good speaker and talks to you not at you. He puts up a video every few weeks as to what has happened on the farm and the whys and wherefores of what he does


Thank you. I will watch these and share with my dad who I've gently persuaded to give up chemicals on his allotment.

do you know of Charles Dowding? Similar approach on a domestic garden with no dig and soil health.

https://charlesdowding.co.uk/


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Blackadder said:


> To be honest, I'm not doing anything now that's different to anything I've done over the last 30 years.
> I switch things off when I'm not using them, my house is as insulated as a house can be, I only drive when I have too etc... not to protect the climate but to protect my bank balance!
> 
> I remain far from convinced that there is a climate "emergency/crisis" & the antics surrounding COP26 haven't helped....
> ...


I agree with the hypocrisy it's another case of the rich telling the little people what to do but not following it themselves. The royal family love to tell us how many children to have and not to fly and yet travel all over the world, their land has become the topic of protest recently.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....s-royal-family-to-commit-to-rewilding-estates

However I do think it's important we do our bit just because our government is rotten to the core doesn't mean the people have to be.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> However I do think it's important we do our bit just because our government is rotten to the core doesn't mean the people have to be.


I think the public will do their bit, when that bit is seen to be workable & affordable. As it stands, it isn't!
You can't decide to ban something (eg fossil fuel cars) unless you can provide a viable alternative. At the moment we don't have the infrastructure to meet the demand for thousands more electric cars, the generating capacity isn't there... let alone charging points.
No more gas boilers by 2030, to be replaced with what?

I realise that technology is moving quickly but we're talking only 8 years to find solutions that work without penalising the very people who have to make it work....us!. Until any changes are affordable (& work) there will be a kick back.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Blackadder said:


> I think the public will do their bit, when that bit is seen to be workable & affordable. As it stands, it isn't!
> You can't decide to ban something (eg fossil fuel cars) unless you can provide a viable alternative. At the moment we don't have the infrastructure to meet the demand for thousands more electric cars, the generating capacity isn't there... let alone charging points.
> No more gas boilers by 2030, to be replaced with what?
> 
> I realise that technology is moving quickly but we're talking only 8 years to find solutions that work without penalising the very people who have to make it work....us!. Until any changes are affordable (& work) there will be a kick back.


Absolutely everyone is being squeezed more and more even the suggested products on here are more expensive than the less ethical ones.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Just found out there is a sustainable store opened up near us.

I can take my own clean containers and fill them with various things … foods, toiletries and cleaning products.

Will head there next week (with clean, recycled containers) and have a nose … hopefully, at least some of the products will suit.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

Blackadder said:


> I think the public will do their bit, when that bit is seen to be workable & affordable. As it stands, it isn't!
> You can't decide to ban something (eg fossil fuel cars) unless you can provide a viable alternative. At the moment we don't have the infrastructure to meet the demand for thousands more electric cars, the generating capacity isn't there... let alone charging points.
> No more gas boilers by 2030, to be replaced with what?
> 
> I realise that technology is moving quickly but we're talking only 8 years to find solutions that work without penalising the very people who have to make it work....us!. Until any changes are affordable (& work) there will be a kick back.


Oh yes EVs are more carbon intensive to manufacture than petrol cars too. 
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...s-carbon-intensive?srnd=opinion&sref=ZtdQlmKR


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Having eaten and enjoyed a plant burger, I don’t eat beef burgers as I don’t like the taste. However I find the list of ingredients in a plant burger worrying and I wonder how many air miles plus irrigation etc is used in order to produce that plant burger.
Cattle spending all year outside on sustainably farmed organic grasslands feeding on a blend of natural grasses and herbs thereby reducing methane output, slaughtered locally at 3 years of age and made into a burger at the local butchers with very little additions, does seem a low carbon product


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Vegan Dogs said:


> Trivial quantity in reality can't feed the nation.


What? I've no idea what you've just said.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Globally, animal agriculture is responsible for more greenhouse gases than all the world's transportation systems combined.

It takes an enormous amount of water to grow crops for animals to eat, clean filthy factory farms, and give animals water to drink. A single cow used for milk can drink up to 50 gallons of water per day-or twice that amount in hot weather-and it takes 683 gallons of water to produce just 1 gallon of milk. It takes more than 2,400 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of beef, while producing 1 pound of tofu only requires 244 gallons of water.

Animals raised for food in the U.S. produce many times more excrement than does the entire human population of the country. According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), animals on U.S. factory farms produce about 500 million tons of manure each year. With no animal sewage processing plants, it is most often stored in waste "lagoons" (which can be seen in aerial views of factory farms) or it gets sprayed over fields.

Runoff from factory farms and livestock grazing is one of the leading causes of pollution in our rivers and lakes. The EPA notes that bacteria and viruses can be carried by the runoff and that groundwater can be contaminated.

Factory farms frequently dodge water pollution limits by spraying liquid manure into the air, creating mists that are carried away by the wind. People who live nearby are forced to inhale the toxins and pathogens from the sprayed manure. A report by the California State Senate noted, "Studies have shown that [animal waste] lagoons emit toxic airborne chemicals that can cause inflammatory, immune, irritation and neurochemical problems in humans."

Using land to grow crops for animals is vastly inefficient. It takes almost 20 times less land to feed someone on a plant-based diet than it does to feed a meat-eater since the crops are consumed directly instead of being used to feed animals. According to the U.N. Convention to Combat Desertification, it takes up to 10 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat, and in the United States alone, 56 million acres of land are used to grow feed for animals, while only 4 million acres are producing plants for humans to eat.

More than 90 percent of all Amazon rainforest land cleared since 1970 is used for grazing livestock.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

There is a huge difference between factory raised cattle in a huge ranch in the US compared to outdoor grass fed cattle in the UK. It is something to bear in mind when quoting statistics.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Siskin said:


> There is a huge difference between factory raised cattle in a huge ranch in the US compared to outdoor grass fed cattle in the UK. It is something to bear in mind when quoting statistics.


There was a programme on "Feast to save the Planet" (or something like that) a vegan thought she was being virtuous by choosing asparagus in one of the meals. Turned out it came from Peru by air freight so equivalent CO2 was huge.

Sea freight items such as bananas were a lot lower. But short life produce that comes by air was horrendous.

I think seasonality and local produce is key.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Siskin said:


> Cattle spending all year outside on sustainably farmed organic grasslands feeding on a blend of natural grasses and herbs thereby reducing methane output, slaughtered locally at 3 years of age and made into a burger at the local butchers with very little additions, does seem a low carbon product


In the UK, the words 'grass-fed' can be used to describe food from animals that have spent only part of their time out grazing in the fields or eating conserved grass. The rest of the time they will have been fed other less natural feeds, such as cereals or the by-products of human food manufacturing like bread and biscuit waste.

all cows raised for beef begin their lives eating grass, most calves are not moved to feedlots until they are around 12-18 months old. Cows who are "grass-finished" are the only ones who forgo the feedlot and spend their entire lives grazing in pastures. Seems ideal, right? Except, finding space for the hundreds of cattle who are grass-finished can be a difficult task. Humans have bred and produced cattle for our own use, so they do not have a "native" environment as such. Rather, today grazing cattle compete with other (actual native) animal species for public lands. It's estimated that cattle grazing on public lands in the U.S. threatens 14 percent of endangered animals and 33 percent of endangered plant species. When cattle graze on public lands, they don't leave it in pristine conditions. Almost half of lands used for cattle ranching are overgrazed and subject to high erosion rates. Soil erosion poses a threat to local waterways and can cause entire ecosystems to degrade and eventually deteriorate. Aside from the fact that cows compete for space and disturb native ecosystems, they also produce an incredible amount of methane. While some studies assert that feeding cows a diet of soy and corn causes them to produce more gas and consequently belch more methane than they normally would, recent findings show that grass-fed cows actually 40 to 60 percent more methane.

Hopefully you can see it's not necessarily what the animal eats or kept that causes issues but also the damage cattle cause to the land, water and ecosystems. Not trying to cause argument or anything like that, but they're still high carbon, they'll never be carbon neutral no matter what.

Also cattle are normally slaughtered at 22 months, the latest 

Also re plant burgers, they're alright but more as a treat. Technically the water/land use is less thus better for the environment in that respect and a more sustainable option to beef burgers. Mock meats are also a good product for someone transitioning to a more plant based diet and wants something 'meaty' to help with the transition. In the beginning I know I did, now I'd much rather have rice, veg and scrambled tofu though.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I visited the Sustainability Store I mentioned and they have quite a lot of products I will try.

The household products are from Fillrefill, which I had started to research on price, ingredients, eco and welfare aspects (must be vegan and cruelty free) and had looked for a stockist near me.

Bar shampoo, conditioner etc. I shall trial too. One or two foodstuffs might suit.

Need to sort and wash out some suitable containers to start using


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Siskin said:


> There is a huge difference between factory raised cattle in a huge ranch in the US compared to outdoor grass fed cattle in the UK. It is something to bear in mind when quoting statistics.


While there is, where do you think most meat comes from here in the UK? Huge factory farms.

Also remember that cattle cause so much damage to soil and ecosystems even if 100% grass fed. Neither way is sustainable when you take that into consideration


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

Engel98 said:


> In the beginning I know I did, now I'd much rather have rice, veg and scrambled tofu though.


Apparently rice produces twice the greenhouse gases than wheat, but less than veg and fruit and accounts for around 10% of food production. I think the process releases a lot of methane.

People can reduce the amount they eat meat wise, though most will not give up meat altogether. But no matter what you eat or produce there will always be greenhouse gases produced. Intensive crop farming causes the soil to degrade quickly too.
The problem really, is overpopulation. Too many people cause too much demand.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

HarlequinCat said:


> Apparently rice produces twice the greenhouse gases than wheat, but less than veg and fruit and accounts for around 10% of food production. I think the process releases a lot of methane.


Yes I believe it's something to do with the bacteria present in the rice fields. Because rice is grown in flooded fields allowing this bacteria to thrive and it's the bacteria that creates methane.

Here's an infographic, I think that's what it's called, on CO² and foods 









But yes everything produces methane. Maybe that's why so little is done about COVID? They saw an opportunity and are taking it; culling us. What was it Boris supposedly said? Let the bodies pile high?

(Sorry off topic I apologize)


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Engel98 said:


> While there is, where do you think most meat comes from here in the UK? Huge factory farms.





Engel98 said:


> But yes everything produces methane. Maybe that's why so little is done about COVID? They saw an opportunity and are taking it; culling us. What was it Boris supposedly said? Let the bodies pile high?


Honestly!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> Yes I believe it's something to do with the bacteria present in the rice fields. Because rice is grown in flooded fields allowing this bacteria to thrive and it's the bacteria that creates methane.
> 
> Here's an infographic, I think that's what it's called, on CO² and foods
> View attachment 478970
> ...


Please check sources, the study is USA based and clearly states in the study it's found by the USA. It's not to be generalised to other countries per se, you can't compare farming here to the USA. Different geography and democratic.

Honestly it's people like you that makes me want to run to McDonalds and order the entire menu that isn't classed as vegan!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

rona said:


> Honestly!


I know

Engel98, have you had anything to do with farming in the uk? Have you spoken to farmers? Do you understand the British farming industry or are you just quoting things from internet sources dedicated to ER?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Engel98 said:


> In the UK, the words 'grass-fed' can be used to describe food from animals that have spent only part of their time out grazing in the fields or eating conserved grass. The rest of the time they will have been fed other less natural feeds, such as cereals or the by-products of human food manufacturing like bread and biscuit waste.
> 
> all cows raised for beef begin their lives eating grass, most calves are not moved to feedlots until they are around 12-18 months old. Cows who are "grass-finished" are the only ones who forgo the feedlot and spend their entire lives grazing in pastures. Seems ideal, right? Except, finding space for the hundreds of cattle who are grass-finished can be a difficult task. Humans have bred and produced cattle for our own use, so they do not have a "native" environment as such. Rather, today grazing cattle compete with other (actual native) animal species for public lands. It's estimated that cattle grazing on public lands in the U.S. threatens 14 percent of endangered animals and 33 percent of endangered plant species. When cattle graze on public lands, they don't leave it in pristine conditions. Almost half of lands used for cattle ranching are overgrazed and subject to high erosion rates. Soil erosion poses a threat to local waterways and can cause entire ecosystems to degrade and eventually deteriorate. Aside from the fact that cows compete for space and disturb native ecosystems, they also produce an incredible amount of methane. While some studies assert that feeding cows a diet of soy and corn causes them to produce more gas and consequently belch more methane than they normally would, recent findings show that grass-fed cows actually 40 to 60 percent more methane.
> 
> ...


This is utter tosh when referring to UK based beef. Certainly a few uneducated farmers will feed grain, but one of the main ingredients for winter cattle feed, be that beef or dairy in the UK is still grass, In the form of silage


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Engel98 said:


> But yes everything produces methane. Maybe that's why so little is done about COVID? They saw an opportunity and are taking it; culling us. What was it Boris supposedly said? Let the bodies pile high?
> 
> (Sorry off topic I apologize)


What absolute nonsense.

Are you really suggesting that Boris Johnson deliberately embarked upon a campaign to murder thousands of people?

I've seen and heard some ridiculous conspiracy theories, but this takes the biscuit.

What exactly do you mean by "Boris supposedly said" "Let the bodies pile high"? Do you have any evidence that there is a shred of truth in this? To whom did he 'supposedly' say it?


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Rafa said:


> What absolute nonsense.
> 
> Are you really suggesting that Boris Johnson deliberately embarked upon a campaign to murder thousands of people?
> 
> ...


I said it more tongue in cheek, sorry if I've offended. It was on the news a few months back. https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...eard-pm-say-let-the-bodies-pile-high-12317584


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I find it quite a shocking accusation to make against one man when you do it 'tongue in cheek' and have absolutely no proof he ever said such a thing. Awful.

I would choose your words more carefully.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

It wasn’t obvious at all that it was a tongue in cheek remark and frankly it was an awful thing to say


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

rona said:


> This is utter tosh when referring to UK based beef. Certainly a few uneducated farmers will feed grain, but one of the main ingredients for winter cattle feed, be that beef or dairy in the UK is still grass, In the form of silage


I would post film and photos but I understand that it may be upsetting/disturbing for some so I'll post links for people to view if they want.

Please know I'm NOT trying to upset, offend or anything. I didn't realise this stuff was happening in the UK until last year. Just sharing, maybe opening eyes for some, whatever you want to call it. I'm sorry if this upsets.

https://naturewayfarm.co.uk/nutriti...ing-grass-fed-beef-grass-fed-beef-101-series/

https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk

Also, admittedly pigs, this is what happens. This is in Wakefield, Yorkshire filmed this year. 





Chickens/ducks- https://thefoultruth.org/ again, in the UK.

Cattle 




Also the counties with the most mega farms here in the UK
https://www.ciwf.org.uk/factory-farm-map/

I'm sorry guys


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Honestly it's people like you that makes me want to run to McDonalds and order the entire menu that isn't classed as vegan!


Go for it. It's up to you what you eat.:Happy


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> Go for it. It's up to you what you eat.:Happy


So stop with your cut and pasted posts and upsetting people here.

You are ignoring members, who quite frankly know a lot more than sensationalised headline stories. As that's what you are doing 'pushing your so called proof' on to others but not actually listening to what others are asking. Come back and educate when you have primary experience of a real life farm. Not what websites told you


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Oh and a recent article with source of information, which relates to the UK,and touches on air miles making things just as bad to consumers or worse. Also explains about British farms,and debunks what @Engel98 stated about them. Which I think @Siskin was trying to explain but was totally ignored


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> So stop with your cut and pasted posts and upsetting people here.
> 
> You are ignoring members, who quite frankly know a lot more than sensationalised headline stories. As that's what you are doing 'pushing your so called proof' on to others but not actually listening to what others are asking. Come back and educate when you have primary experience of a real life farm. Not what websites told you


Ive just shared videos recording the inside of actual farms here in the UK. The very same ones that people are claiming don't exist. I know people who went to some of these and I watched them live. I also watched as the farmer beat the shit out of everyone in the street. Shall I link that too? No probably not. You're all talk here. Say you want to do something to help climate, help animals yet your actions don't align with your words. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

You ask me a question, I answered. You asked for proof, I gave you proof of what happens on OUR land, in OUR country. Yet you believe it's a ton of shit.

Berryfield Farm, Oakland livestock centre, Sussex, Northampton, Wakefield, Buitelaar; just to name a few. Huge farms right here in the UK.

Your 'grass fed' cattle























Your 'free range' hens
















Your 'bacon'























Farrowing crates, rearing sheds, fattening units. It's all the same.

So yes these farms do exist here in the UK. If you seriously say no they don't then you're clearly indenial. Want to actually make a difference to climate, remember to look at what's on your plate and where it comes from. USA, UK, Australia. Same practices apply


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

In many parts of the country cows need to come into housing during the winter for several reasons. Left out they will need supplementary feeding as the grass will not be growing much if at all, the ground will be getting wet and the cows will poach the land turning it into a muddy pot marked mess. The cows will be getting mucky too and that does distress them, also cows much prefer to be out of the rain and will choose to come in out the cold and wet. Left out when it really gets cold then they will suffer from cold stress and lose condition
Where I live high on the Cotswolds, the cattle can stay out probably to about January unless it’s very wet, but then it starts to get much colder and we often have heavy frosts and snow. The cattle are best indoors in light airy sheds with good ventilation. Milkers tend to be on straw or sawdust and these days more farmers are investing in special mattresses for the cows to lie on. There will also be loafing areas and feeding areas.
Young cattle will often be in on straw and sawdust bedding which will be scraped out weekly and replaced. 

The sheds need to be fairly open with good air movement and a lot of research and careful planning and siting of sheds will be undertaken. Natural light is necessary but care needs to undertaken that rooflights are placed correctly so that on a sunny day heat doesn’t come in via the roof lights and endanger heat stress in the cows. 

Cattle are mucky creatures. Unlike some animals they don’t have a midden system and lift there tails whenever they need to go so good management prescribes regular scraping down and removal to middens which will later be put onto the grass as fertiliser.

This is written by me, not lifted from the internet.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Siskin said:


> In many parts of the country cows need to come into housing during the winter for several reasons. Left out they will need supplementary feeding as the grass will not be growing much if at all, the ground will be getting wet and the cows will poach the land turning it into a muddy pot marked mess. The cows will be getting mucky too and that does distress them, also cows much prefer to be out of the rain and will choose to come in out the cold and wet. Left out when it really gets cold then they will suffer from cold stress and lose condition
> Where I live high on the Cotswolds, the cattle can stay out probably to about January unless it's very wet, but then it starts to get much colder and we often have heavy frosts and snow. The cattle are best indoors in light airy sheds with good ventilation. Milkers tend to be on straw or sawdust and these days more farmers are investing in special mattresses for the cows to lie on. There will also be loafing areas and feeding areas.
> Young cattle will often be in on straw and sawdust bedding which will be scraped out weekly and replaced.
> 
> ...


Ah well aren't they lucky. Intensive dairies are kept inside around 250 days a year while their calves are left outside in hutches.

Doesn't take away the fact that theyre in cramped quarters sometimes left without feed for 24hr+ have little or only dirty water. Pumped full of antibiotics and produce a lot of gas contributing to the 50-60% of all greenhouse gas emissions from animal agriculture globally.

Nevermind just better practices, it needs to be reduced in general.

The runoff from fertilizer can taint waterways. The breakdown of bedding produces gas, even the making of the bedding and the feed as well as the transportation of these goods. Apparently 90% of all soy is animal feed. Dairy cattle for example have their calves taken away and are fed on soy so we can have the milk. They're bulked up using soy before slaughter. Ect. Transportation causes a lot of emissions as we know. Ultimately cattle aren't that sustainable no matter how you house them, how you feed them.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

So you are condemning all farmers due to the ones you have seen online. Have you any experience of fami g in this country like working on one or visiting one?
And no they aren’t the lucky ones, what I have written is more the norm


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Siskin said:


> So you are condemning all farmers due to the ones you have seen online. Have you any experience of fami g in this country like working on one or visiting one?
> And no they aren't the lucky ones, what I have written is more the norm


No never worked on one but visited many. The most memorable one was a smallish one and they had a cottage they rented out which was kitted out with lots of eco stuff in it. I must have been about 8 or 9 but that's the most memorable.

I go past a lot of farms when traveling to appointments and I can hand on heart say they look exactly the same as the ones I've visited and seen online. My niece's dad is a farmer and his was the same too. Rarely outside, normally in a barn type in pens.

On ethical grounds (which has nothing to do with this thread I know) as well as climate reasons I don't agree/like them. This is something that stems back long before I became vegan. Note, its their jobs rather than the individual themselves. I can't look at what they do and say, 'yes this is ok'. Just like when people go hunting for fun or fishing for fun.

Please keep in mind I've eaten meat. I've drank milk, I've eaten eggs and worn leather. I've been fishing, I've tried shooting. I'm not saying I'm a saint, I'm far from perfect. Would I do any of those things again, no. If I could go back in time to change the suffering and damage I've caused? Absolutely.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Farrowing crates are in the process of being phased out right now! Having worked with pigs, this isn't something I am totally in agreement with.

You cannot change a whole system overnight. Animals have to be cared for in the time it takes (20_30 weeks) to convert a system

Even without legislation or any clarity from the government on what will be acceptable alternatives, many farmers are already changing their systems.

Oh, and pigs lie piled together for warmth.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

The pictures of black and white cows are a normal picture of dairy cows overwintering in a barn and yard. Probably just before or just after clear out. Though one of those pictures seem to show either the sick cow pen, animals get poorly just as much as humans or it's the cull pen

Correction, they look more like dairy produced beef animals, you know,the ones that everyone tells you gets culled at birth?

Also some of the pics 
of so called yards look awfully like livestock markets!

One of the best farmers I know of and have watched grow for almost all of my life is a so called mega dairy, the cows and stock there are out at grass, 1000s acres of the stuff and the roads are often held up by tractors doing silage runs in the summer, to feed them all through the winter.
Yes, if the winter is long and wet, they may need to suplimentary feed but that is an expensive exercise and not at all what any farmer would want to do if there was an alternative


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I must admit that the totally indoor systems for cattle and fowl sickens me, there is just no need.
Pigs are a little different as they will suffer and do suffer much more outdoors unless kept in very large areas, something to do with their rootling tendencies.

Just go to Knepps 1500 acres to see what just 10 sows and prodigeny can do!

Pigs suffer from sunburn and hate being cold, so the UK climate is not good for them and I often see outdoor pigs either in bare sun drenched pens or up to their bellies in freezing mud

I still stand by that most cattle in the UK are grass fed, and outside as long as weather permits.
Why would you want them inside with all the health issues that go with that? It"s why they have open barns and yards during the winter


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Chicken sheds are an abomination and not a lot better than cages, unless the chickens have proper acces to open areas, but again, like the pigs, it needs to be the right kind of outdoor area. No good if it's just an extension of the conditions inside the shed, or even worse when wet!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I'm quite surprised by the turn of this thread I thought it was common knowledge that meat in particular beef is damaging to the environment. 
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/why-meat-is-bad-for-the-environment/

It was on the news just the other day discussing the methane that cows produce. Of course flying in your veg isn't great either eating locally is best.

Whilst I except some farms do have the animals welfare at heart I have read and seen some pretty grim articles in the past. We need to be realistic about where are meat comes from and the conditions the animals are in. Where does cheap/ cut price meat come from? You can taste the difference between organic or not.

I say this as a failed vegan I think reducing your meat intake is important lots of people I know do at least a few nights meat free.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It is important, that's why you should buy local if you can and where you can see how the animal is reared, if not, for sure buy British and organic if you can afford it.

Those pics and videos will always show the worst. That doesn' t mean it's the norm


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

,.....


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't think anyone denies some farmers aren't good to their animals, but you can't tar a whole industry just for a few bad apples.

There's a farm near where I walk sometimes, the cows and sheep are always out eating the grass or are gathered around the hay the farmers put out to feed them. 

If it's carbon emissions we want to cut, stop the billionaires flying here there and everywhere in their private jets. That small percentage pumps out passive amounts of greenhouse gases


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

HarlequinCat said:


> I don't think anyone denies some farmers aren't good to their animals, but you can't tar a whole industry just for a few bad apples.
> 
> There's a farm near where I walk sometimes, the cows and sheep are always out eating the grass or are gathered around the hay the farmers put out to feed them.
> 
> If it's carbon emissions we want to cut, stop the billionaires flying here there and everywhere in their private jets. That small percentage pumps out passive amounts of greenhouse gases


I don't disagree the rich and powerful can make the most difference. I'm just surprised @Engel98 is getting such a hard time every paper I read says we should reduce the meat we eat. Every single one is that wrong ?

With regards to treatment of animals I don't think farmers are deliberately mean but the industry is brutal especially with supermarkets pushing prices down. I eat meat sometimes but am realistic it's not all animals frolicking in the fields. What about battery hens ? The dairy industry? Where does the incredibly cheap meat in Asda come from ?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> I don't disagree the rich and powerful can make the most difference. I'm just surprised @Engel98 is getting such a hard time every paper I read says we should reduce the meat we eat. Every single one is that wrong ?
> 
> With regards to treatment of animals I don't think farmers are deliberately mean but the industry is brutal especially with supermarkets pushing prices down. I eat meat sometimes but am realistic it's not all animals frolicking in the fields. What about battery hens ? The dairy industry? Where does the incredibly cheap meat in Asda come from ?


The problem was how it was copied and pasted.

Animal welfare group has their biases, and this is why you should look at other sources. Driving past a farm is a snap shot of how the cows/ sheep/ pigs are kept.

We have had this argument before and this isnt how you change people's mind. You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. This is so true for this thread.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> I'm just surprised @Engel98 is getting such a hard time every paper I read says we should reduce the meat we eat. Every single one is that wrong ?


https://www.countrysideonline.co.uk...riendly-farming-the-facts-about-british-meat/

https://www.nfuonline.com/nfu-online/sectors/dairy/mythbuster-final/

Even McDonalds is getting involved
https://www.farminguk.com/news/mcdonald-s-uk-hailed-for-regenerative-beef-project-work_58471.html

Like a lot of other industries, the farming sector is adapting and keen to do so.

My main problem was the total lack of understanding of British farming, and the sensational rubbish that goes alongside that.

When I worked on the pig farm, a national paper came to do "an article". The lies that they printed were an eye opener. Also, I saw a film about pigs at a later date that was spun so much, that to the untrained eye it looked dreadful, but to someone who knows pigs and pig behaviour, there was nothing much wrong

I just hate lies and propaganda


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

A lot of farmers particularly the younger more media savvy ones are writing blogs and filming vlogs in order to show what British farming is like currently warts and all. One of the major issues is flooding and the difficulties this causes. I’m sure we’ve all seen pictures of a flooded field with a flock of sheep stranded on a small bit of higher ground and felt sorry for the farmer and his animals in that moment. But have you thought what happens after the floods recede? It will take a long time, months and months, possibly years, for the land to recover and become useable again for either crops or as grazing. If sewage contamination has been found then the land has to be taken out of production until tests have shown it’s safe. Animals won’t eat grass that is coated with sewage nor should they. The soil structure will have broken down as the water lying on the fields will have compressed the soil which prevents grass roots from penetrating and growing, the grass often dies off and the land will need to be prepared by tillage and reseeded, fertilisers will likely have to be used as soil fertility will be down due to it being washed away. Then there’s all the microbes and worms that will have drowned in prolonged flooding, worms can only survive for a short time in water and will be unable to escape. Do not underestimate how important worms are to soil health. 

Flooding events are not solely down to climate change, but often comes about due to housing and roads being built on land that once was flood plain. For a long time heavy rainfall was absorbed by fields in the area, land can take an awful lot of water before it becomes ‘full up’. Reduce the acreage of land by building on it and covering with tarmac and concrete reduces the flood plain so that the remaining fields become full up quicker and flooding occurs bringing misery to those living in properties as well as the farmer trying to make a living. 

For those willing to be educated by forward thinking farmers who are trying to improve their farms and animal welfare there is a lot to view and read online rather then just sticking to a one sided vegan and climate warriors viewpoint who are against any form of livestock farming. One side effect of farmers showing and writing about their farms is that there is a small income stream from advertising, so diversification at work.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

rona said:


> The pictures of black and white cows are a normal picture of dairy cows.


Dairy=Beef

Also those images are from the farms mentioned that supply Morrisons, Tesco, Sainsbury's ect.

Also it's the boys that are typically culled at birth in the dairy industry as they're not useful. Or they go into veal/beef industry.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Depends what breeds the dairy cows are. If they are Holsteins then quite often the male calves are slaughtered and I don’t suppose that is an enjoyable prospect for the farmer. An increasing number now will be sold on and raised for rosy veal, not the white vest favoured in parts of Europe where the calf is raised in a darkened area and fed on milk and slaughtered when still very young, rosy veal calves are often out on grass, weather and age permitting amd don’t go for slaughter until older.
Farmers are moving towards raising crossbreed dairy cows dairy crossed with either a beef breed or dual purpose breed such as the the Brown Swiss) and then mating with one of the beef breed bulls like an Angus in order to produce beef cattle to raise. It all depends on the farm and farming methods employed there.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

Slightly off topic but what are peoples thoughts on eco bricks?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> Slightly off topic but what are peoples thoughts on eco bricks?


Not enough places around here to see their usefulness. Although I only get bottles at Christmas so bit useless really. Don't have a lot of recycling either considering there are 4 adults in the household.

Plus it's only Quorn products in plastic in my freezer, oh and mice comes in plastic non recyclable.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Not enough places around here to see their usefulness. Although I only get bottles at Christmas so bit useless really. Don't have a lot of recycling either considering there are 4 adults in the household.
> 
> Plus it's only Quorn products in plastic in my freezer, oh and mice comes in plastic non recyclable.


No there isn't many places. I can't help but think what's the point? The plastic is going to degrade anyway and go into the soil like when at landfill :/ doesn't really solve the problem.

Also does anyone know where the soft plastics go when 'recycled' at shops. My Tesco has now got a big bin type thing to recycle plastic bags and the like but doesn't say where it goes/what happens to it.

(Well off topic. Mice? I didn't know you kept reptiles?)


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

We have a lovely market store near our new place where you bring your own containers. The food products are locally sourced and seasonal so you never know what you’ll find as it changes day by day. They offer a wide variety of products and their gift-shop style items (think cards and dried flowers) are all handmade by a person that owns a shop a few doors down. It’s lovely and the ever changing rotation of food items has meant we’ve been trying out new recipes. It sells household goods too so we no longer have to buy plastic bottles each time we need washing up liquid 

The only issue I have (and it’s a big issue) is that the access to these kinds of stores is a privilege. The previous area I lived in was in a SMID3 zone whereas the area we live in now is a SMID10 zone. This is a ranking system scotland uses to evaluate the deprivation of residents within an area (it is based on numerous factors), with 1 being the most deprived and 10 being the least deprived. In my previous area the only shop was a spar and an ASDA a 20 minute drive away. In our new area we have butchers, food markets, gift shops, florists, a bakery, etc all selling locally sourced and organic food. This isn’t something that could be widely found in my previous area and I have an issue that ethically sourced, organic, more environmentally friendly, and healthier foods/products are a privilege. I think (and it has been proven) that industries are the main culprit when it comes to environmental damage but how can the public be expected to “do their part” when locally sourced, ethical, organic options are not accessible to the majority of people? 

Sorry for rant it is just something I feel very personally!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> We have a lovely market store near our new place where you bring your own containers. The food products are locally sourced and seasonal so you never know what you'll find as it changes day by day. They offer a wide variety of products and their gift-shop style items (think cards and dried flowers) are all handmade by a person that owns a shop a few doors down. It's lovely and the ever changing rotation of food items has meant we've been trying out new recipes. It sells household goods too so we no longer have to buy plastic bottles each time we need washing up liquid
> 
> The only issue I have (and it's a big issue) is that the access to these kinds of stores is a privilege. The previous area I lived in was in a SMID3 zone whereas the area we live in now is a SMID10 zone. This is a ranking system scotland uses to evaluate the deprivation of residents within an area (it is based on numerous factors), with 1 being the most deprived and 10 being the least deprived. In my previous area the only shop was a spar and an ASDA a 20 minute drive away. In our new area we have butchers, food markets, gift shops, florists, a bakery, etc all selling locally sourced and organic food. This isn't something that could be widely found in my previous area and I have an issue that ethically sourced, organic, more environmentally friendly, and healthier foods/products are a privilege. I think (and it has been proven) that industries are the main culprit when it comes to environmental damage but how can the public be expected to "do their part" when locally sourced, ethical, organic options are not accessible to the majority of people?
> 
> Sorry for rant it is just something I feel very personally!


I agree so much with this. Where I live is packed with eco-shops and cooperatives (one is relatively affordable) but for many across town, it's easier to go to the most un eco-friendly supermarket of the lot - Asda.

This article talks about eco-shaming. I'm sure The Big Issue covered this too but I can't find the link
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...nmentalism-inequality-farmers-market-go-green


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> (Well off topic. Mice? I didn't know you kept reptiles?)


Just one snake, he's a suboc blonde variety!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

The link below is useful to read about what to eat. Published today. Maybe the 'beg to differ' approach is that we all know to be nosey about what we eat and the impact and try to be a bit more plant based, a bit more veggie, a bit more ethical with the meat (if one eats it) and much more savvy about air miles, fair trade and palm oil?

I'm vegetarian, I have been for years and plant based most of the time but I'm very careful about airmiles, production, packing and palm oil. I'm passionate about checking the provenance of any brand to see if it's really better for the planet and myself. I think that's the best one can do. I'd never eat meat again but if my husband who does eat it sometimes wants it, I won't cook it but I make sure it's from a sustainable source. But often those sources are more expensive and I feel that supermarket have a long way to go ethically. As @bmr10 says, it shouldn't be elitist but it feels like it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/20...-seaweed-in-my-week-eating-a-climatarian-diet
_
What is clear is that we certainly need to eat less meat and dairy. Imperial College's climate change centre, the Grantham Institute, includes this as one of its "nine things you can do about climate change", which is good enough for me. On Giki Zero, a personal impact calculator, moving from "eat everything" to a "mainly plant based" diet saves 949kg of carbon annually. Co-founder James Hand, who was responsible for the data crunching behind the tool (the methodology is on the site), confirms: "A mainly plant-based or a mainly vegetarian diet does the bulk of the savings. It's absolutely crystal clear."

Patrick Holden, director of the Sustainable Food Trust, organic pioneer and a regenerative farmer since the 1970s, views things differently. "This mantra of moving to a plant-based diet is just plain wrong. We should ask which plants we should eat, and which animals and animal products." Industrial chicken, pork and dairy production, Holden argues, are only possible because of environmentally unsustainable grain monocultures; stop these and cheap, polluting meat production would end." _


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Just one snake, he's a suboc blonde variety!


Not familiar with many snake varieties kept as pets. Is it a rat-snake?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

And the always brilliant Dr Rupy with his Doctor's Kitchen podcast on 'meat me halfway' - link to Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/episode/24VUTwQMmxp1kyppEMOfPy?si=DfBo1LYSSf-wAPkLJ7ua1g


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Engel98 said:


> Not familiar with many snake varieties kept as pets. Is it a rat-snake?


Yes, trans Pecos rat snake is it's other name. I really want another western hognose, as mine passed away. They are the cutest snakes ever!


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

lullabydream said:


> Yes, trans Pecos rat snake is it's other name. I really want another western hognose, as mine passed away. They are the cutest snakes ever!


They do look pretty cute.


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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

I've found a seasonal food calendar for anyone interested: https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/seasonal-calendar


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

MollySmith said:


> Thank you for taking the time to rely with such care and I agree with much of what you say. I'm being very careful in my responses as threads like this have been known to get taken over my those who deny the emergency or have huge frustrations with people who obstruct. I'd hate for those sorts of replies to cause this thread to close but I wanted to say, yes I agree.
> 
> I have been moved to tears by some of the contributors to social media from COP26 who are from younger generations, it's incredible and I can't imagine the frustration that they must feel. However we are in a pandemic which makes it all so much more difficult and not so easy to agree. Our political system is hopeless and I do wonder how many tragedies have to happen to cause the planet to be the reason for change, I fear something major and much closer to home.


It's crazy isn't it, that this non contentious subject is made so contentious by deniers? There is absolutely no contention on climate science. I admit I have had to temper my own responses when engaging with deniers (and delayers) as they frustrate the hell out of me. The best thing to do is block them or walk away. So thanks for the warning, I would hate to get this thread closed.

I weep for our dying planet. If the public mobilised we could save it, but when I look around it's clear too many people have no clue to the gravity of the situation. I blame the media for that. When the ozone was at risk the media got through to the public but they have failed miserably on the climate. As one leading NASA climate scientist said; "I don't think we're nearly angry enough about rich people burning down our planet irreversibly so they can get a little richer".

So, predictably, COP has been a complete farce. There were over 500 fossil fuel lobbyists there, larger than any single official delegation at the conference. Our government are shameless. With corrupt governments like ours plus so many people in denial I don't think we have a hope in hell of transitioning to a sustainable system to save our planet. Even after the raging fires in Australia the number of climate deniers barely changed. They are more afraid of carbon taxes and system change than all the devastation. It's very frightening.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-59232599
More less biased piece about farming, how UK farms are definitely different. How say the beef industry isn't just cut and dry as making a high impact as people state.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-59232599
> More less biased piece about farming, how UK farms are definitely different. How say the beef industry isn't just cut and dry as making a high impact as people state.


I apply this philosophy to it all because it's better than nothing at all.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Jacknmack10 said:


> It's crazy isn't it, that this non contentious subject is made so contentious by deniers? There is absolutely no contention on climate science. I admit I have had to temper my own responses when engaging with deniers (and delayers) as they frustrate the hell out of me. The best thing to do is block them or walk away. So thanks for the warning, I would hate to get this thread closed.
> 
> I weep for our dying planet. If the public mobilised we could save it, but when I look around it's clear too many people have no clue to the gravity of the situation. I blame the media for that. When the ozone was at risk the media got through to the public but they have failed miserably on the climate. As one leading NASA climate scientist said; "I don't think we're nearly angry enough about rich people burning down our planet irreversibly so they can get a little richer".
> 
> So, predictably, COP has been a complete farce. There were over 500 fossil fuel lobbyists there, larger than any single official delegation at the conference. Our government are shameless. With corrupt governments like ours plus so many people in denial I don't think we have a hope in hell of transitioning to a sustainable system to save our planet. Even after the raging fires in Australia the number of climate deniers barely changed. They are more afraid of carbon taxes and system change than all the devastation. It's very frightening.


it's tremendously frustrating to realise that many won't embrace changes to save the planet. I think the language is all wrong never mind the actions. I had to switch off it was too awful. For once I feel a little grateful not to have children of my own but I worry for my godchildren I really do.


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

lullabydream said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-59232599
> More less biased piece about farming, how UK farms are definitely different. How say the beef industry isn't just cut and dry as making a high impact as people state.


Your article makes a crucial point about biodiversity. We have to tackle the climate emergency and the biodiversity loss crisis simultaneously. Both are the result of our current unsustainable system. So leaving climate aside, grass fed animals are extremely destructive to biodiversity. It wouldn't be feasible for meat eaters to switch to grass fed livestock as there isn't enough land. It would mean using even more land than the current system.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)




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## Engel98 (Oct 7, 2018)

https://consult.defra.gov.uk/animal...e/consultation/subpage.2021-09-07.4166968809/


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

rona said:


> Farrowing crates are in the process of being phased out right now! Having worked with pigs, this isn't something I am totally in agreement with.
> 
> You cannot change a whole system overnight. Animals have to be cared for in the time it takes (20_30 weeks) to convert a system
> 
> ...


It appears it's the EU commission which has pledged to phase them out, there's no plan to phase them out here now. I stumbled upon this CIWF campaign, but having problems sharing the petition on here. The petition needs about 20,000 more signatures for phasing out cages to be debated in parliament. Let's get behind it and sign and share.

Can anyone find it and post the link?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's already been debated several times
They are being phased out by 2027!

Are you looking at their 2020 Petition?

The pig industry wants longer, the animal rights wants quicker.

It will be a huge expense and upheaval for the pig industry, and I think 2027 is about the right time frame.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/pigs/advice-on-switching-to-temporary-crating-as-pressure-grows


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## Jacknmack10 (Sep 21, 2021)

rona said:


> It's already been debated several times
> They are being phased out by 2027!
> 
> Are you looking at their 2020 Petition?
> ...


There have been many debates on the subject the last debate being earlier this year. No o legislation has come from those previous parliamentary debates. The farmers weekly article doesn't appear to contradict that hon.

.This is a new petition. And I've just figured out how to copy and paste on my tablet! 
_
The European commission plans to ban cages for all farmed animal s potentially by 2027, and will prohibit the import of food from caged systems. This would result in the UK lagging behind the EU and possibly damaging the whole British farming sector.

The UK government must work to secure by 2027, across the UK , a ban on the use of:

barren, enriched and Combi cages

farrowing crate's for sows

Individual calf pens

_

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/593775


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I just pondered over longevity - it is not eco friendly or climate wise really?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124190/
Just thinking….
Maybe my best friends input will be living dangerously ?
Jokes aside it is good question….
Obviously if you are well that is not a problem but once you are totally dependent on medication and care?
Yet for someone who does not believe in afterlife in any form… prolonging life is the ultimate goal?
Just thinking, late night…wishing you all best health for many years to come…


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Just watched The Social Presents: The Reluctant Environmentalist on BBC iPlayer.

Zarah Hill does a month’s experiment trying to live more sustainably .. using refill shopping, cutting down on food waste etc.

It was interesting to watch.

It does work out more expensive shopping wise but I shall be making some changes on certain household products to start with … choosing alternatives that avoid harmful chemicals and are cruelty free. Worth paying extra for imo.

Also going to try the cornflakes as the normal packaging seems excessive for the amount inside.

I have my recycled containers washed and ready to go!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I've been using Refill's laundry liquid, softener, all purpose cleaner, liquid hand soap, bathing soap bar, herbs & spices and cornflakes and really pleased with them 

I love too that the cleaning and beauty products are green, vegan and cruelty free … triple win!

Over the year, this is going to mean I am buying far fewer plastic containers … yay!


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