# Dog whisperer - shocked at his methods



## Charlieboy1980 (Aug 10, 2010)

I watched my 1st ever episode of the dog whisperer and i was sat open mouthed at certain point in the programme!

He was dealing with a St Bernard who was afraid of stairs, the family wanted him in their rooms but the dog was so scared he couldnt go up  The family seemed very dedicated and wanted to do all they could to help the 11 month old pup.

So in comes CM and tries a few methods to get him to go up, then ran around the block a few times to get the momentum, then he basically drags the poor pup up the stairs, CM nearly breaks his neck and is sweating really badly. He does this over and over again until the pup is doing it ok. I was gobsmacked that that was his methodology at getting the pup over his fear. He was so aggressive with it and the pup was obviously frightened 

I an not saying i would have know how to get the dog up the stairs without brut force. Then he goes onto say that only a professional should do it. What the hell!!!

Anyway just thought i would share and my husband and I were so shocked, mesmerised but shocked nevertheless.:eek6:

Not too sure I really like his ideas thats for sure!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*My husband and watched the same programe and didn't feel Cesar was cruel.But loads on here will tell you how cruel he is.*


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## Charlieboy1980 (Aug 10, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *My husband and watched the same programe and didn't feel Cesar was cruel.But loads on here will tell you how cruel he is.*


I see your a fan, i suppose it was the way he pulled him up the stairs, no encouragement or praise when he did it.

Each to their own i suppose


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

anyone else for some?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> anyone else for some?


*:lol::lol: lol i hope you've got bucket loads.*


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> anyone else for some?


Ooh, me please!!!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Here you go ladies


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Here you go ladies


*:thumbup: I hope we get one of those each.:lol:*


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *:thumbup: I hope we get one of those each.:lol:*


Ha, ha-I was just gonna say the same thing!!! :thumbup:


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## Charlieboy1980 (Aug 10, 2010)

:lol: is this a frequent debate on here...


New here, maybe should not have opened can of worms...sorry


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Charlieboy1980 said:


> :lol: is this a frequent debate on here...
> 
> New here, maybe should not have opened can of worms...sorry


*Don't be sorry there are those of us that like him others hate him.And yep its a very frequent debate.*


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## Lindseyb88 (Jan 27, 2010)

I have also seen that eposide. Sorry to the person who likes CM but i agree, very agressive often without any need. 

He has no mothed thats the problem. Makes it up as he goes along, thats why he has to come back all the time to his cliensts as his "methods" are unrelistic for anyone. Whats the point in it if hes the only one able to shape the behaviour?

It makes me laugh when he talks about energy! As if keeping calm and in charge is soming new. ALL dog trainers willl tell you to keep yor emositions in check at the early stages but this is not a method in itself! If I am upset i can walk my dog and he behaves because I have taught him how to behave. CM clients dogs dont learn the difference between right and wrong as they get no rewards, just negative, negative negative.

My partner always says that a man like CM must have nothing downstiars thats why he feels the need to go on and on and on about dominant behaviour to make himself feel large and in charge 

I think the eposide when he finds out one of his clients had the dog put to sleep because CM "methods" didnt work reallly sums up that he doesnt use realistic methods for the average JO!


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## Charlieboy1980 (Aug 10, 2010)

Lindseyb88 said:


> I have also seen that eposide. Sorry to the person who likes CM but i agree, very agressive often without any need.
> 
> He has no mothed thats the problem. Makes it up as he goes along, thats why he has to come back all the time to his cliensts as his "methods" are unrelistic for anyone. Whats the point in it if hes the only one able to shape the behaviour?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your opinion, CM just seemed lost and like he was making it up as he went along. Thats awful about the dog being put to sleep


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lindseyb88 said:


> I have also seen that eposide. Sorry to the person who likes CM but i agree, very agressive often without any need.
> 
> He has no mothed thats the problem. Makes it up as he goes along, thats why he has to come back all the time to his cliensts as his "methods" are unrelistic for anyone. Whats the point in it if hes the only one able to shape the behaviour?
> 
> ...


*:lol: Typical man,thinking of whats in his trousers.
Strange how people never mention the good Cesar does.But i guess shouting from the roof tops,oh CM kicks dogs or strangles them gets more replies.I'll sit and wait for the 1st person to mention how white his teeth are AGAIN.*


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'll sit and wait for the 1st person to mention how white his teeth are AGAIN.*


i think you just did! :arf:


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## BigBearsRule (Jun 24, 2009)

I take my hat off to him and his pearly white teeth, for his stamina. I would not like to try and drag a Saint up and down the stairs repeatedly.
There is no mention here that theSaint should not be going up or down the stairs. Its a giant breed and stairs can cause untold damage to joints in later life. As an owner of 3 giant breed, I thought that rule was one of the first you are told.
Maybe CM needs to read Dog Ownership for DUMMIES


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> i think you just did! :arf:


*haha ok the 2nd person.The popcorn is going to come in handy.:lol:*


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Hopefully there's still some popcorn left. :scared:

I'm a CM fan though think he's too old for me to marry so i'll leave that to Janice :thumbup:


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

If he wasn't allowed to use prong / choke collars nothing he does would ever work. Funny that. 

If he kicked my dog I would knock his very white teeth out, then tell him that I used my energy as pack leader to do it.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

keirk said:


> If he wasn't allowed to use prong / choke collars nothing he does would ever work. Funny that.
> 
> If he kicked my dog I would knock his very white teeth out, then tell him that I used my energy as pack leader to do it.


Interesting that because he was dealing with a feral dog and all he used was several $1 leashes, fair bit she bit through most of 'em but there was no force, no choke chains, no prong collars etc.

Amazing how you can't find this video on youtube though.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

keirk said:


> If he kicked my dog I would knock his very white teeth out, then tell him that I used my energy as pack leader to do it.


Love it!!!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

anyone need a top up?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> anyone need a top up?


Yes, please :thumbup:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

:Yawn:

You may have been shocked and appalled at his methods but you watched his programme o the end didn't you? Will you watch another episode to see what he does next time?

Love him or loathe him his first priority is always to get people to watch, it is a TV show and nothing is more important to it than ratings. Whether you approve of his methods or not do not forget this simple fact.

Despite the many good works he may have done for dogs there are still occasions where he uses pain, fear or aggression to achieve the results he requires and for that reason alone, his programmes are banned in my house.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2010)

BigBearsRule said:


> I take my hat off to him and his pearly white teeth, for his stamina. I would not like to try and drag a Saint up and down the stairs repeatedly.
> There is no mention here that theSaint should not be going up or down the stairs. Its a giant breed and stairs can cause untold damage to joints in later life. As an owner of 3 giant breed, I thought that rule was one of the first you are told.
> Maybe CM needs to read Dog Ownership for DUMMIES


Good Post it was the first thing I was told about owning a big dog that they shouldn't do stairs too especially when young as damage to growth plates etc, but hey Ceaser knows best (note the sacastic tone)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have always been a fan of SOME of his methods, but this would have infuriated me as well. Firstly, an 11 month old giant breed dog should not be climbing stairs in the first place. Secondly, giant dogs don't do stairs! My newfies are not afraid of the stairs, they just cannot get up them. It is not possible. I, too, would love to have them in my bedroom, but I know they would not want to even try to get up, and their needs come first, as these selfish owners of this St Bernard should be doing.

I hope when they go back to CM in a year or so wondering why the dog has bad legs and hips, he will at least give them a refund and pay the vets bills.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

BigBearsRule said:


> I take my hat off to him and his pearly white teeth, for his stamina. I would not like to try and drag a Saint up and down the stairs repeatedly.
> There is no mention here that theSaint should not be going up or down the stairs. Its a giant breed and stairs can cause untold damage to joints in later life. As an owner of 3 giant breed, I thought that rule was one of the first you are told.
> Maybe CM needs to read Dog Ownership for DUMMIES


I hadn't read your post when I posted mine. Any decent behaviourist or trainer would find out about the breed before even going near it. He obviously did not such thing. If I had been asked to try to get a growing giant breed upstairs just so the owners could have them in their room, I would have told them to grow up and think of the dog. This thread has put me right off him!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Did the programme go on to show how they got the dog down the stairs as well? That would be the miracle, I would have thought.


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## Charlieboy1980 (Aug 10, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> :Yawn:
> 
> You may have been shocked and appalled at his methods but you watched his programme o the end didn't you? Will you watch another episode to see what he does next time?
> 
> ...


So true i will watch another episode because it was very interesting to see the end result! Plus i am watching anything with dogs in it to learn as much as i can:thumbup:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Charlieboy1980 said:


> So true i will watch another episode because it was very interesting to see the end result! Plus i am watching anything with dogs in it to learn as much as i can:thumbup:


My worry is that despite all the warnings shown not to try his methods at home without proper supervision, that is exactly what people will do, often with no idea of the long term consequences.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

A true dog whisperer! Turid Rugaas!

Just Found: "Mythologies and Commodifications of Dominion in CM/DW"

Is it really cruel to perform an 'alpha roll' on your dog?

Article (Daily Mail)-Dominate or Treat as equals (Vic Stilwell vs. Cesar Millan)

'Are the Dog-Whisperers Methods Safe?', Globe and Mail

the CM / DW public-relations empire

This topic has already been much discussed on the links above. 

I and others do not 'hate' him as the CM fans assume we do.  We don't know him personally so how can we hate him??? :confused1: We do dislike the fact that he is promoting the use of ancient, discredited methods, particularly Ye Olde Dominance style training though resulting in owners (in need of a quick fix) copying his more forceful methods (alpha rolls and jabbing) and causing more problems with their dogs.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> I and others do not 'hate' him as the CM fans assume we do.  We don't know him personally so how can we hate him??? :confused1: We do dislike the fact that he is promoting the use of ancient, discredited methods, particularly Ye Olde Dominance style training though resulting in owners (in need of a quick fix) copying his more forceful methods (alpha rolls and jabbing) and causing more problems with their dogs.


There's people here on this forum have expressed their wish to kill, maim and cause various things to him so i'm pretty sure they hate him


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> There's people here on this forum have expressed their wish to kill, maim and cause various things to him so i'm pretty sure they hate him


Really? Well that's just silly behaviour and does nothing for healthy debate. Some people really have no idea how to conduct themselves in discussions.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Lindseyb88 said:


> It makes me laugh when he talks about energy! As if keeping calm and in charge is soming new. ALL dog trainers willl tell you to keep yor emositions in check at the early stages but this is not a method in itself! If I am upset i can walk my dog and he behaves because I have taught him how to behave. CM clients dogs dont learn the difference between right and wrong as they get no rewards, just negative, negative negative.


Its shocking how many people DONT know that a dog actually needs exercise every day or they became destructive and troublesome, exactly like children when bored
I know if i didnt walk my dog every day there would be dire consequences



SpringerHusky said:


> Interesting that because he was dealing with a feral dog and all he used was several $1 leashes, fair bit she bit through most of 'em but there was no force, no choke chains, no prong collars etc.
> 
> Amazing how you can't find this video on youtube though.


I agree with you there.
Sadly people are normally only interested in what someone does wrong 

I think he is right in _exercise, discipline, love_
and although i am totally against prongs etc i think the fact that he can help a dog with little more than a piece of string is very encouraging :thumbup:


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## scarlet_rain (Mar 11, 2009)

I have fostered quite a few greyhounds in the past couple of years and 1 in 3 didn't know how to climb stairs at first and in order to get into our house there is a flight of stairs. What I did was to stand over the dog and support it under its belly and walk the dog up the stairs, i found doing this 5-6 times was enough for the dog to realise the stairs wern't anything to fear. i would praise the dog with treats and fuss when he or she had reached the top and bottom on their own. Also I would lift the dog sometimes and put them half way up the stairs and then they would have no choice but to move up or down. I havn't seen this program yet but unless the dog was wearing a harness which gives more support I would never drag a dog up the stairs incase it cause neck injury.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Really? Well that's just silly behaviour and does nothing for healthy debate. Some people really have no idea how to conduct themselves in discussions.


I agree, this often why things get so out of hands.

I have no quarrels with people who dislike his methods, everyone has their own choice but it's saddening to hear the real disgust people have for him when agreed they do not know him personally and yet some people want him dead :confused1:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> I agree, this often why things get so out of hands.
> 
> I have no quarrels with people who dislike his methods, everyone has their own choice but it's saddening to hear the real disgust people have for him when agreed they do not know him personally and yet some people want him dead :confused1:


There are a lot of personalities that I really cannot bear to even watch, but I would never want them dead. But there are some strange people about. I once had a pupil who told me it would be really good if J.K. Rowling got killed because he didn't like the Harry Potter novels!

Wanting someone dead should surely be reserved for someone you know personally and really, really hate and is causing you aggro.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> There are a lot of personalities that I really cannot bear to even watch, but I would never want them dead. But there are some strange people about. I once had a pupil who told me it would be really good if J.K. Rowling got killed because he didn't like the Harry Potter novels!
> 
> Wanting someone dead should surely be reserved for someone you know personally and really, really hate and is causing you aggro.


I agree completely :thumbup:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I once had a pupil who told me it would be really good if J.K. Rowling got killed because he didn't like the Harry Potter novels!
> 
> Wanting someone dead should surely be reserved for someone you know personally and really, really hate and is causing you aggro.


I agree. It is a really disturbed way of thinking.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> I agree. It is a really disturbed way of thinking.


He was really disturbed! He was always making wierd comments like that and I was glad to see the back of him when he finally passed his test.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Can I recommend The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson as an alternative please. 
This article: Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan is excellent about the subject of this thread.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Can I recommend The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson as an alternative please.
> This article: Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan is excellent about the subject of this thread.


Agreed. That lady is a REAL expert, not a carefully managed and manufactured one. Sadly she doesn't have the gimmicky celeb factor though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have just been reading through the link and I have to say, though I have watched many of the Dog Whisperer programmes, I have never seen Caesar Millan use these methods. Do they not show these programmes in the UK or have I just missed them?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

A few of the more notorious clips here - YouTube - AntiCesarMillan's Channel

No. I do not run that Youtube channel either.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for the link, but I couldn't watch it all. 11 month old giant breed on a high energy run? WTF! I would say that dog is not afraid of the stairs, he just knows, like mine, that they cannot manage them. And it is not even a straight staircase, but a spiral one! I am a bit scared of those myself. That is it; I have gone right off him now.

The methods of his that I have found helpful are mostly the positive thinking, which really does work, but many on here have told me they are not his methods, but tried and trusted ones used for years.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Thanks for the link, but I couldn't watch it all. 11 month old giant breed on a high energy run? WTF! I would say that dog is not afraid of the stairs, he just knows, like mine, that they cannot manage them. And it is not even a straight staircase, but a spiral one! I am a bit scared of those myself. That is it; I have gone right off him now.
> 
> The methods of his that I have found helpful are mostly the positive thinking, which really does work, but many on here have told me they are not his methods, but tried and trusted ones used for years.


*But the dog did go back up the staircase?*


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I thought young giant breed dogs should be discouraged from running up and down stairs....:confused1:

tbh that`s not training is it?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I thought young giant breed dogs should be discouraged from running up and down stairs....:confused1:
> 
> tbh that`s not training is it?


That is just what we are saying. Extremely bad for their limbs when they are growing, as is a high energy run, and practically impossible for a full grown dog. It is like trying to get a cow up the stairs! They say you can get one upstairs, but never down again.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But the dog did go back up the staircase?*


I am sure someone strong enough to force my dogs upstairs as well, but they know it is not a good idea which is they resist. If this St Bernard does ever get into the habit of running up and down a spiral staircase, he will probably be crippled by the time he is 3


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I thought young giant breed dogs should be discouraged from running up and down stairs....:confused1:
> 
> tbh that`s not training is it?


No. It's coersion.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *My husband and watched the same programe and didn't feel Cesar was cruel.But loads on here will tell you how cruel he is.*


Why the endless need to slate people who provide positive images of dog care whatever there methods.:thumbup:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Most of us who are a little better educated in canine behaviour and training tend to slate the old dominance methods and despair of them being promoted to millions of easily impressed owners desperate for a quick fix. I think that's reasonable. As for slating him personally, I wouldn't because I don't know him and he might be a perfectly nice chap, albeit lacking in upgraded canine knowledge. If he 'crosses over' and updates his learning, adopting a more intelligent approach to canine rehabilitation then we would welcome him aboard like any other.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I've not seen the episode, can't comment on whether it was cruel or not.

Did the owners live in a flat or something? I see no reason why the (giant breed) pup would need to go up and down the stairs at their age. I hope it doesn't cause any damage.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sequeena said:


> I've not seen the episode, can't comment on whether it was cruel or not.
> 
> Did the owners live in a flat or something? I see no reason why the (giant breed) pup would need to go up and down the stairs at their age. I hope it doesn't cause any damage.


the episode is on the Youtube link. No, they don't live in a flat. They just had a fancy for having the dog in the bedroom with them. As I said at the beginning, totally selfish and giving no consideration whatsoever to the dog's needs. He should have told them that, instead of forcing a still growing giant breed up a spiral staircase. Personally, I think this behaviour outweighs any of the other methods of his which have been criticised. You have to be extremely careful with giant breed puppies and here he is, showing millions of unsuspecting viewers, how to force a dog like this into a situation which will most definitely do it damage.

It is the sheer ignorance of the breed that has got me so mad. He should know better.


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 28, 2010)

I've just watched the link and the poor dog is that scared it pulls him off the stairs at one point. I've never seen any of his stuff until tonight... not too keen on seeing it again either


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I have a friend who lives in a flat with his giant breeds 2 bernese and a great dane.

He has a hoist thing fitted to their balcony incase of fire, and they use the lift for walks.

Surely EVERYONE who has a giant breed or workes with one would know about the risks of stairs?


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

-The dog shouldn't have been going upstairs, Star is olny a bit bigger then a lab and we were told she shouldn't climb anything as a puppy.
-There are many better ways using reward and motivation which would have got the dog WANTING to go up, not doing it because it felt it had no choice (something I'm sure the owners would have preffered)

>>I don't hate cesar, I think he is misinformed.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Well there's no excuse for ignorance and there is loads of info out there for CM to peruse if only he would. He would be better thought of by his peers if he upgraded his knowledge instead of sticking with old fashioned ideas about pack leadership etc etc blah blah that have since been discredited even by their originators! 

Link to explain - *THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PACK LEADER*

Trouble is though, some people don't bother reading up on things that they already think they are an expert in.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

keirk said:


> If he wasn't allowed to use prong / choke collars
> nothing he does would ever work. Funny that.


actually, in his 1st-season he used almost-exclusively what are called in the trade, *kennel-leads * - 
super-cheap, thin nylon-tape or polypropalene slip-leads that run 49-cents to 79-cents apiece; 
the tape-versions can be PRINTED with the vet's clinic + phone, or the shelter-name, etc...

they are cheap, harsh on hands [i've been CUT by tape versions and BURNED by poly-types when dogs pulled] 
and harsh on necks - and just like choke-chains or slip-collars, *they close to infinity - * 
U can shut-down the airway by elevating the dog's head + neck, forepaws do not need to be suspended 
to strangle a dog: *show handlers can be frequently seen to 'string-up' their dogs by skinny show-leads*, 
and when the poor thing tries to swallow their saliva, they almost audibly go *ger-LUNK... *on the videos.

:nonod: whenever U see a dog paddling along on their tip-toes in the forehand, with head near-vertical 
and jawline at a near-right angle to the spinal column, and a hackneyed gait, 99.9 times of 100 
dogs and handlers, that dog is being strung-up as they move. (shrug) a real shame, and very unnecessary.

it looks like H*** and is very uncomfortable for the dog; they cannot swallow, pant, cool effectively, 
BREATHE properly, and so on. :thumbdown: the dog also cannot possibly gait properly while hung like a puppet.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Did the programme go on to show how they got the dog down the stairs as well?
> That would be the miracle, I would have thought.


i think it was a hot-air balloon in the cathedral-ceiling living-room, tethered to the banister... :skep: 
or maybe it was an airplane-escape inflatable ramp out the 1st-floor [Euro] or 2nd-floor [USA] window at the stairhead?

i forget.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Very educational episode that one I felt.

1) As others have said, that dog should NOT be doing stairs anyway, due to the risk of serious crippling damage to its joints. ANY trainer / behaviourist / breeder / vet etc worth their salt should know this.

2) Putting a thin steel noose around the most sensitive part of the dog's neck, running it up the street to build momentum, then physically dragging it up the stairs is NOT training. It is abuse.

3) The risk of injury here is massive - from the leng term joint damage of a young StB doing stairs, to the risk of injury from choke chain abuse (trachea damage, ataxia, etc), to the mimediate risk of the dog slipping / stumbling and thus injuring itself on the stairs..... VERYhigh risk strategy all round.

4) This wasn't a "red zone" dog, the alternative was not euthansia, and none of his other usual excuses are appropriate here either. This was a young dog that was dragged in a painful, dangerous manner for NO REASON.

Now, don't get me wrong I don't wish the guy dead or anything. However - he is NOT innocent here. He has been presented with all the evidence the rest of us have. He knows about alternative methods, he knows that pack theory has been disproved, he knows that safer, more humane methods exist and yet he CHOOSES to abuse dogs in the name of training. That isn't ignorance - it is deliberate cruelty in my opinion and that really does get me riled.

Maybe he finds it fun to suspend dogs in midair until they pass out, or does he enjoy wathcing dogs being PTS because they are crippled by HD at the age of three thanks to overdoing the exercise and stairs???

I'm sure he feels like a big macho man when he sees a young dog pi$$ itself with fear while grovelling before him.

If he laid a finger on a dog of mine he would find himself in A&E, as would any other scumbag who tried to abuse my dog.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I can't stand the man, I would never let him near a dog of mine.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I hate the man's methods and that episode really disturbed me. Poor puppy . Not the most disturbing episode that was the jindo but still. Really don't like his methods especially where there are no good excuses like the dog is dangerous. He was forcing a scared dog onto a treadmill by a choke chain in the last episode I saw because the owners wanted him on the treadmill no actual valid reason. I wouldn't let him near any dog


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colette said:


> Very educational episode that one I felt.
> 
> 1) As others have said, that dog should NOT be doing stairs anyway, due to the risk of serious crippling damage to its joints. ANY trainer / behaviourist / breeder / vet etc worth their salt should know this.


True. So why did he do such an irresponsible thing and do that to a young giant breed for TV? I would love to know but I doubt he could give me a satisfactory explanation.



Colette said:


> 2) Putting a thin steel noose around the most sensitive part of the dog's neck, running it up the street to build momentum, then physically dragging it up the stairs is NOT training. It is abuse.
> 
> 3) The risk of injury here is massive - from the leng term joint damage of a young StB doing stairs, to the risk of injury from choke chain abuse (trachea damage, ataxia, etc), to the mimediate risk of the dog slipping / stumbling and thus injuring itself on the stairs..... VERYhigh risk strategy all round.


Yes but his fans cannot foresee that so it's ok.  I am tongue-in-cheek here of course.

He really does need to go back to 'school' and learn his subject more thoroughly IMHO.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> ...I would never let him near a dog of mine.


i have said precisely this about many people over the years - not all men, either, in some cases it was _'her'_.

some were vets, some were groomers, some were "handlers..."  like CM/DW, or dog-walkers, pet-sitters, 
vet-techs, U name it; if they are hard-handed, rough, ignore signs of fear or anxiety, *they don't touch my dog - 
the DOG might not bite them, but > I < very-well might leave a dental impression. *

some of the people i have said this about were family-members  too bad, folks - 
blood does not count when it's my dog, and her or his comfort + sense of safety with a person. 
all too democratic, :lol: 
- terry


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi, just had to let Janice and billyboysmamma they gave me a real chuckle this morning with the popcorn lmao. Only read the first few pages but I love CM :thumbup:


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *My husband and watched the same programe and didn't feel Cesar was cruel.But loads on here will tell you how cruel he is.*


I watched it too a little while back. I was amazed at the size of their house! They must be VERY rich! 



billyboysmammy said:


> anyone else for some?


Do you have any larger bags?



billyboysmammy said:


> Here you go ladies


Thanks! That's better!


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

Jindo episode?? -wnats to see-

I remember one where he pinned down a dog that had been trapped in a garage for a while whilst it was trying to bite him.

First i had a hard time seeing what was wrong with his methods, but now, I know, he says he's been bitten many times, and I'm thinking 'why?!' the dog should respond because it wants to, not because it feels too threatened to do anything else. And his theories are outdated. 

What bugs me most about this was not his method, it was the fact he didn't disagree to perform his 'training' despite the fact every dog person knows big breeds don't climb, he's way more interested in the money. And yeah, I'm not really a 'YAY LET'S THROTTLE A DOG' kinda person.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Daggre said:


> Jindo episode?? -wnats to see-
> 
> I remember one where he pinned down a dog that had been trapped in a garage for a while whilst it was trying to bite him.
> 
> ...


I'm a ceaser fan so i'm not going against him but sadly some of his clients are idiots.

The one you saw with the Am.Eksimo, well the owner had the dogs teeth removed at the end, instead of continuing to work with the dog


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I'm a ceaser fan so i'm not going against him but sadly some of his clients are idiots.
> 
> The one you saw with the Am.Eksimo, well the owner had the dogs teeth removed at the end, instead of continuing to work with the dog


Obviously another Ceasar Milan success story then.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> The one you saw with the Am.Eksimo, well the owner had the dogs teeth removed at the end, instead of continuing to work with the dog


Oh charming they obviously love it so much, but then again wathcing Cesar they probs felt there was no hope 

Where do ylou find out what happens after, because obviously they didn't say that on the show..did they?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Obviously another Ceasar Milan success story then.


*You can't blame Cesar Milan for every thing.How many time i've heard him say,the owners are at fault.*


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

> You can't blame Cesar Milan for every thing.How many time i've heard him say,the owners are at fault.


So he didn't know taking big breeds up stairs wans't good?? In which case he clearly would have no clue about dogs.

Or, he would rather get the money then not cripple a dog? I mean he could at leats have warned them before starting...


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You can't blame Cesar Milan for every thing.How many time i've heard him say,the owners are at fault.*


Doesn't he constantly claim that he rehabilitates dogs and trains people? He is definitely on the right road there but if the owners he has trained then go on to have a dogs teeth removed in order to stop it from biting them then I would class that as a pretty big failure.

Using the example in the original post, can I blame him for dragging a St Bernard up stairs when someone in his position absolutely should know better, can I blame him for agreeing to the owners selfish reasons for doing it in the first place, well sorry if anyone disagrees with me but yes, I damn well can blame him for that.

The man is seen by millions around the world and is portrayed (by his own TV show of course) as the answer to many dog owners prayers, therefore he has a tremendous amount of influence on people who don't know any different, who are exactly the kind of people who are likely to experience the kind of problems he puts on his show anyway.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

As I said in my original reply, he should have told them that giant breeds don't do stairs, especially growing ones. I probably didn't know. His total qualification has been growing up with packs of dogs, but he does not seem to grasp the idea that not all breeds are the same.

On another note, though, isn't there some happy medium here? Everyone cringes at the words "pack leader", but about 25 years ago I contacted a young lady who was advertising as a dog trainer. She spoke a lot about pack leader and the pack leader eating first, etc, but she never once tried to force the dog to do anything. It was all praise and treats and she was wonderful! Obviously cared a lot about dogs.

I don't think the words mean a lot; it is the principle behind them. Not that you are the "pack leader" but you have to be the leader.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daggre said:


> I remember one where he pinned down a dog that had been trapped in a garage for a while whilst it was trying to bite him.


if U and i are both thinking of the same episode, *daggre,

the dog who had been living in the garage was an Aussie-Shepherd tricolor, 
who was pinned, stress-panting and whale-eyed, for an extended period to the concrete floor - 
the Aussie's owners also had a small coop with free-roaming chickens, that the [*herding breed?*] dog 
was supposed to SPONTANEOUSLY leave-alone, not chase, molest, grab, bite, or kill... 
which IMO demands a lot of an un-trained herding-type from a breed well-known for predatory impulses, 
and naturally prone to chase and grab.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2010)

I am a CM fan. 

I think the good he does far outweighs the bad, dogs are all over the world being put to sleep because of a lack of control/training on the owners behalf. CM has saved a good few dogs from being just another body thrown into the ever growing pile. 

I agree sometime's it looks uncalled for but anyone who has watched his show for a while will agree that its for the greater good. I have seen him be bitten to the point were he bled, he didnt do anything to that dog yet he kept calm, I dont know many people who would take being attacked by someone elses dog so calmly. 

Also to add, hes rather handsome too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> the dog who had been living in the garage was an Aussie-Shepherd tricolor,
> who was pinned, stress-panting and whale-eyed, for an extended period to the concrete floor -
> the Aussie's owners also had a small coop with free-roaming chickens, that the [*herding breed?*] dog
> was supposed to SPONTANEOUSLY leave-alone, not chase, molest, grab, bite, or kill...
> ...


Which is just what I was saying in my last post; does this man know that not all breeds are the same? Apparently not.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I am a CM fan.
> 
> I think the good he does far outweighs the bad, dogs are all over the world being put to sleep because of a lack of control/training on the owners behalf. CM has saved a good few dogs from being just another body thrown into the ever growing pile.
> 
> ...


Where is the greater good in forcing a growing, giant breed dog up a spiral staircase just because the owners have a fancy to have it sleeping in their bedroom?

Anyone who works with animals should expect to get hurt and remain calm. We once used a blacksmith who, whilst he was shoeing the horses back foot, was savagely kicked in the face by that said horse. He stood up, face covered in blood, went around to the front of the horse and said: now what did you do that for?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I am a CM fan.
> 
> I think the good he does far outweighs the bad, dogs are all over the world being put to sleep because of a lack of control/training on the owners behalf. CM has saved a good few dogs from being just another body thrown into the ever growing pile.
> 
> ...


*lol i agree but some people "think" they know best.*


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Where is the greater good in forcing a growing, giant breed dog up a spiral staircase just because the owners have a fancy to have it sleeping in their bedroom?
> 
> Anyone who works with animals should expect to get hurt and remain calm. We once used a blacksmith who, whilst he was shoeing the horses back foot, was savagely kicked in the face by that said horse. He stood up, face covered in blood, went around to the front of the horse and said: now what did you do that for?


I agree CM was wrong for forcing any growing dog up stairs however the owners are at more fault...what idiots force a dog to sleep in their bedroom? Fair enough if the dog wants to but if it doesnt want to why force it?

Many of the cases I have seen CM deal with are completely reasonable. I agree not all are however 98% are.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I hope he's happy to pay the vet bills when the pup develops HD 

It's ridiculous to expect any giant breed pup to go up and down the stairs! It's basic knowledge that they should not be allowed near stairs at all as pups. I could give a stuff about CM's alleged abuse against dogs etc. I'm no behaviourist/dog whisperer myself and even I know it's wrong!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> The man is seen by millions around the world and is portrayed (by his own TV show of course)
> as the answer to many dog owners prayers, therefore he has a tremendous amount of influence
> ...


sadly, yes - the fan-base is overwhelmingly pet-dog owners. 
no vet-behaviorist or CAAB is praising pinning, poking, bitey-hands, *TsssT!* interruptors, etc; 
let alone the whole pack-theory _*me-human, U-dog... *_ Neanderthal theory of behavior in dogs.

let's just skip the *"correct energy can cure aggression"* theory altogether. 

*M sports-figures who abuse drugs, beat-up their wife or child, get into screaming matches of invective on the field, 
and so forth, are scorned In Part because kids look up to and mimic them - and they are failing to provide 
a wholesome role-model, by public displays of crude temper-tantrums, domestic violence in their homes, 
cheating with doped-performances, or using recreational, illegal drugs.*

i see no reason why we should not likewise hold CM/DW to a higher standard of public performance: 
he is taken as a role-model - if we cannot DO THIS at home, then it should not be shown as acceptable, 
in our living-rooms - especially when the show is promoted in ads as 'family entertainment'. 
i for one do *not* want kids imitating what he does - not with an innocent pup, nor with any adult-dog.

raising the bar, 
--- terry


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I agree CM was wrong for forcing any growing dog up stairs however the owners are at more fault...what idiots force a dog to sleep in their bedroom? Fair enough if the dog wants to but if it doesnt want to why force it?
> 
> Many of the cases I have seen CM deal with are completely reasonable. I agree not all are however 98% are.


I have been a fan for a long time and his book has helped me sort out a few problems with Ferdie. I have only seen him use a shock collar twice, once to stop a dog from chasing tractor wheels and killing himself, the other stop a dog from going after rattlesnakes, and again killing himself. It is this one episode which has upset me so much, probably because, giant breeds who are growing need to be treated as tenderly and carefully as young babies. I have done everything to be so careful with Joshua, my two year old newfie, and yet he still has arthritis in his front knees.

So what would have happened to him had I called in Caesar Millan because he kept lying down halfway through his walk? He probably would have forced him to his feet and made him run, causing untold damage.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I have been a fan for a long time and his book has helped me sort out a few problems with Ferdie. I have only seen him use a shock collar twice, once to stop a dog from chasing tractor wheels and killing himself, the other stop a dog from going after rattlesnakes, and again killing himself. It is this one episode which has upset me so much, probably because, giant breeds who are growing need to be treated as tenderly and carefully as young babies. I have done everything to be so careful with Joshua, my two year old newfie, and yet he still has arthritis in his front knees.
> 
> So what would have happened to him had I called in Caesar Millan because he kept lying down halfway through his walk? He probably would have forced him to his feet and made him run, causing untold damage.


I completely agree with you. 
My family kept saints for a very long time and the amount of delicate care they need because of their size is demanding.

I think his books are great. I just recently bought his puppy book but Scorcher ate it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> ...dogs [worldwide] are... put to sleep because of a lack of control/training [by] the owners...
> CM has saved a good few dogs from being just another body thrown into the ever growing pile.


hey, SL! :--) 
just to point out: over 90% of the dogs on CM/DW are in no danger whatever of being euthanized. 


shetlandlover said:


> ...sometimes it looks uncalled for but anyone who has watched his show for a while will agree that its for the greater good.


funny - 
i watched every episode from the 1st-show of the 1st-season, thru Sept-2009 when i moved, and don't get Natl-Geo... 
and i =still= have the same reaction: *it does not just look "un-called for", it Is Uncalled-For.*


shetlandlover said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I have seen him be *bitten to the point were he bled, he didnt do anything to that dog yet he kept calm*,
> I dont know many people who would take being attacked by someone elses dog so calmly.


since he was the one who triggered the bite, most trainers and most vets will tell U the bites were 'justified' - 
a *justified bite* is one delivered when the dog had a legitimate reason to bite.

if i put a dog in pain or fear and continue to push them past their ability to cope, i EXPECT to be bitten.

amazingly, after over 10-years working with dogs in general, and since 1985 with problem-behaviors, 
and since 1990 with dogs who have bite-histories, i have been *bitten just once - 
by a 12-WO GSD-pup who was the progeny of Czech + East-German border-patrol parents. * 
did that puppy belong in a suburban pet-home, with a 20-something 'teenaged-male' as his FIRST dog? 
absolutely not! did i CAUSE the bites? yes - by removing a 6-inch long dead pine-twig the puppy was chewing 
and EATING from his mouth - he was swallowing all the splinters.

was that a 'justified' bite? IMO, no - he bit me 3 times, each with increasing force, quite deliberately AFTER 
i had already tossed the stick away. it took almost 3-weeks for the last bruises to fade from my hand - 
a definite over-reaction.  besides, without even getting up he could have duplicated the stick with another - 
it was not 'rare' or 'special', we'd had a windy rainstorm a day or 2 before, and the ground was littered.

his 'owner's' mother, who owned the house and lived with this little monster, had both arms black + blue 
and punctured, almost to her shoulders.  charmer, he was - 
SAPPHIRE KENNELS bred, sold + air-shipped this pup - who was BTW cryptorchid, as well.

if i tease, hurt, scare or threaten a dog, or intrusively push a dog around, i should expect a bite - 
that's what happens; it is very predictable, and usually easily avoided in training situations. 
JMO + IME, 
--- terry


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I have two dogs that would have been put down. They`re fine now. I didn`t kick, strangle, roll or in any way hurt them to change them. I used old fashioned dog training. Reward when they do right, prevent them for doing wrong. The same way trainers all over the world do. But they don`t have the multi-million dollar PR machine. 
If you believe this man `cures` dogs you are being taken in by the PR. He doesn`t rehabilitate dogs. He makes TV programmes. What happens to those dogs afterwards is kept extremely quiet.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

It never ceases to amaze me how those who have proved worthy enough of a TV show are constantly condemned and criticised by those who haven't.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zaros said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how those who have proved worthy enough of a TV show are constantly condemned and criticised by those who haven't.


Did I miss a thread where everyone was criticising Victoria Stillwell? Or Barbara Woodhouse? Or any other trainers on tv for that matter.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Did I miss a thread where everyone was criticising Victoria Stillwell? Or Barbara Woodhouse?
> Or any other trainers on tv for that matter.


has anyone seen reams of critical comment on *Barking Mad*? 
which BTW was IMO the best mutli-species training program i have ever seen - 
i was so sorry when Animal-Planet stopped showing re-runs.

how about *Good-Dog U*? lots of critics? [no.] 
* andrea arden * on *The Pet-Dept*, FX Emmy-winning show? 
many complaints? criticism? [no.] *Breed All About It*? [no.]

or *UnderDog to Wonder-Dog*? major controversy? angry words? [no.] 
*One Man and His Dog*? [no.] *Cell Dogs*? [no.]

*Petsburgh, USA*? [no.] *Dogs With Jobs*? [no.] gee... i guess he can take it personally, then - 
it really *is* *cesar's* handling that we object to...  not his ethnic background, 
personal history, celebrity-status, or any other trivial details - *it's what he does.*

along with, of course, the *similarly criticized Dog Borstal and End Of My Leash - *
which amazingly, use similar techniques and tools on screen, gee-whiz , who'd a thunk it? 

JMO + IME, 
- terry


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Terry, you do make me laugh! I've never heard of half these programmes; are they shown in the UK or just in the States?

If any devotees of Caesar Millan are interested, I feel a bit deflated and having to change my opinion of him as I have been following his programme for years. Never took much notice of what he was actually saying, so the dominance bit totally went over my head. No big surprise; a lot of things do! But I am not "following the herd" and just being influenced by the obvious dislike of the man on this forum. It was really this episode about the St. Bernard puppy, and I watched it on You Tube and thought "the man is an idiot"!!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I have dealt with countless aggression cases, both dog/dog aggressive and dog/human aggressive. Never had to resort to Ye Olde Dominance methods aka CM tactics to get a positive and long lasting result. I'm not bragging, just stating simple facts. 'Love' him all you like and let your adulation blind you to his ignorance of even the most basic canine behaviour but know this - no knowledgable, well respected training body or veterinary association advises or condones his methodology. :nonod: Welfare in Dog Training

The more you know about dog training and behaviour rehabilitation (some folks do not even read books on it yet 'love' him???) the less you will admire CM's tactics. Most enlightened pet dog owners and people who actually work with problem dogs are not so easily impressed.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

All I did was read a lot and ask for advice. I listened to my dog and worked up to her most stressful situations (full on contact with strange dogs). It wasn't a quick fix, I'm still working at it (been working at it now for about 10 months). It's frustrating at times and I get very down because I wish she could just be like my shepherd - easy going and eager to make friends.

It's rewarding though  I walk my girl with a half check collar and either a chain lead or a fabric lead. Nothing else. She weighs over 100lbs.

I find it very sad that collars like this are being used so willy nilly without any real effort put in to solve the actual problem 

Don't get me wrong I'm no expert, I am your average dog owner.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I've never heard of half these programmes; are they shown in the UK or just in the States?


just for U, hun -  seeing they are mostly USA-product -

U should know *Barking Mad*, i think - BBC program? 
Barking Mad Season 1 Episode Guide on TV.com

Good Dog U - had 2 trainers as hosts over the years - 
the first, *jay Stutz*, was by far the better IMO; *joel silverman* took over later. 
Meet Joel Silverman

The Pet-Dept - 
The Pet Department TV Show FX|The Pet Department Online Series Summary

Breed All About It - 
Watch Breed All About It Episodes - Watch full episodes of Breed All About It in the Online Video Guide | TVGuide.com

UnderDog to WonderDog - 
Watch Underdog to Wonderdog Online - Full Episodes, Latest Seasons, Stream Videos & Clips - Yidio

One Man And His Dog - 
YouTube - One Man & His Dog 1

Cell Dogs - 
highlighted the work of the *Prison Pet Partnership* which gave dogs who were unadoptable to prison-inmates 
for training; inmates must earn the right to work in the program, stay clean and not fight, etc; 
the dogs after B-Mod and/or training, are adopted to new homes.

Petsburgh, USA - 
Petsburgh USA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dogs With Jobs - 
Dogs With Jobs | National Geographic Channel 
i think among my faves were the Lab who herded trout in New-England, and the Malinois who searched-out 
MERCURY traces in schools, businesses, and other buildings. [Sweden? Norway?] 
there was also a USA-lab who found leaks in gas-lines, underground or above-ground. 
*THAT* was a worthy Natl-Geo dog-oriented program: real dogs, doing real jobs, in many countries.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Charlieboy1980 said:


> I watched my 1st ever episode of the dog whisperer and i was sat open mouthed at certain point in the programme!
> 
> He was dealing with a St Bernard who was afraid of stairs, the family wanted him in their rooms but the dog was so scared he couldnt go up  The family seemed very dedicated and wanted to do all they could to help the 11 month old pup.
> 
> So in comes CM and tries a few methods to get him to go up, then ran around the block a few times to get the momentum, then he basically drags the poor pup up the stairs, CM nearly breaks his neck and is sweating really badly. He does this over and over again until the pup is doing it ok. I was gobsmacked that that was his methodology at getting the pup over his fear. He was so aggressive with it and the pup was obviously frightened


Coming back to this, now look at how this St Bernard was persuaded that getting in a bath and staying there was a good thing to do.  This same method could be used to persuade such a dog to use stairs? CM ought to be shown this then he would know how to do it. 
*http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/home/stubborn*

(Not that I think St Bernards should even be using stairs, especially at a young age!)
http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/home/stubborn


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

gotta congratulate you guys! this thread hasnt been locked, modded or deleted yet!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

That's because most of us know how to debate a topic without getting nasty and attacking other members because they don't agree with us.


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## painter24 (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm fairly new to this forum, but have participated in many different types of forums over the years, from video gaming to football, photography and music engineering. Without fail, there is always some contentious issue which seems to split people right down the middle and cause peoples' ego glands to go into overdrive. I never for the life of me thought i'd see it on a pet forum, lol.

But anyway, as for CM, some of his methods I would fully endorse, others nope. I don't get this whole aversion to the "dominance/submissive" concept. I think people see/hear the word "dominance" and think of bent coppers thumbscrewing a confession out of a suspect, or Hitler for a more extreme example. "Submission/being submissive, is something we all do everyday, whether it be with our bosses at work, or our wives.husbands . We submit to our governments rules, as otherwise, there would be anarchy. Likewise, we bring a dog into our homes, he/she has to "submit" to our rules, boundaries, whatever you want to call them, or again, there would be anarchy. I am the one setting the rules/boundaries so am I not the dominant figure in my house hold of 2 cats and a dog? 

As for the St. Bernard, it may be cruel to force him up the stairs due to the joint problems they now potentially can suffer with. But, am I mistaken in saying these fabulous beasts used to be mountain rescue dogs, and that the only reason they now suffer with these potential problems is the vanity, selfishness, arrogance and pure short sightedness of breeders and KC standards.

I've seen tonnes of posts on here, and other dog forums regarding the wrongness, cruelty of this training method or that training method, but this all seems like sheer hypocrisy when you look at the twisted and contorted shapes some of our breeds have ended up in due to breeding, not to mention some of the less visible problems that occur.

Anyway, that's my 2 penneth. *runs off and dons asbestos suit*. :scared:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

painter24 said:


> ...as for CM, some of his methods I would fully endorse, others nope.
> 
> I don't get this whole aversion to the "dominance/submissive" concept.
> I think people see/hear the word "dominance" and think of bent coppers thumbscrewing a confession
> ...


i will answer this, but won't bother with the flamethrower -  
for one thing, i want to get back to sleep, and getting irate would only upset me after a short, restless night. 

* most [if not all] of the stuff CM/DW *says* which is patently true, is also patently not 'original material' - 
he's not the author, he's just saying stuff that has been in general circulation for a good long while - they are hoary truisms. 
dogs need exercise, dogs need rules, begin as U mean to go on, be consistent, yadda yadda... 
this is not merely *my opinion*, but is shared by a large group of folks who are dog-pros, so i feel quite comfy 
making this statement: _"if it's true, dollars to donuts i've been hearing versions of it all my life."_

* overwhelmingly, the silly *verbal nonsense* is unique IMO to CM/DW - *but some of this is dangerous if ppl act on it - * 
like saying _"the right energy cures aggression", :blink:_ or that a dog who just p*ssed himself _"is being dominant"..._ :skep: 
if U were to BELIEVE those statements and act with them as a guide, very-bad things could happen... 
*which is why the legal-Beagles of Natl-Geo have that prominently-displayed disclaimer at the beginning 
of the show, + after the commercial break - they don't want liability if someone imitates what they see, 
or accepts what is said as gospel-truth.*

* the biggest problem of all? *way-worse than verbal? it's what he DOES, IMO that is most hazardous.*
nobody hangs a disclaimer on It's Me Or The Dog with *stilwell, or on Good Dog U with *stutz, 
or UnderDog to WonderDog with *andrea arden... WHY? 
cuz the things they do are very unlikely to cause serious fallout, even if they are not very well-done. 
OTOH if U are not =fit= with good reflexes, upper body-strength and good balance, and have *handling skills-* 
not 'training savvy'  - and try to mimic CM/DW as demonstrated, very bad things could happen.

re hierarchy and status in humans 
yup, we vest power in authorities - the state, church hierarchy, the government, county officials, Boy Scout leaders... 
it's everywhere. *hierarchy is vastly important to humans.* that does not mean it's inevitably important to domestic-dogs.

* no one dog can TELL other dogs what _"we ought"_ to do - let alone, _*"we Must..."*_
they can show them what they WANT to do, and the other dog may or may not join in: strike a hot scent, 
set off on it baying, and hopefully for the hunter, the rest of the pack follow and work the scent, too.

* if dogs disagree, they generally exhaust peaceful ritualized-aggro *signals* before violence commences - 
they posture, stare, hackle, freeze, growl, etc. *might does not necessarily make right, either - * a dog on home-turf 
has a huge psych-advantage over their opponent, whatever the size-difference or other factors. 
most puppies are never challenged by normal adult-dogs over such precious items as food, bones, or treats; 
if it is in their possession, it is *theirs*, and very few grown-ups will steal or torment a pup to make em 
give it up - even tho they could, easily, take it away.

* dogs rarely exit or enter a door in any 'hierarchy' - whoever is closest, passes thru first -  very democratic.

* what humans want from dogs [or cats or...] is not worship or appeasing anxiety, but *compliance with rules, 
or compliance to cues - * _don't chew stuff that's mine, chew Ur own_ - and _Come to me when i call Ur name._ 
_*teaching the dog [or other non-human] is the most effective way to get that willing compliance.*_ 
bullying them rarely succeeds in doing much beyond creating needless stress, IMO + IME.

i can get compliance without ever once eating before the dog; or exiting /entering before the dog; 
or consigning the dog to the floor, and only humans may sit on the furniture. *it does not matter.* :thumbup: 
for one thing *the deck is stacked in my favor - * our home is mine; the food, social opps, toys, etc, *-I-* provide. 
*every resource the dog desires that i control, is another good reason to comply: for access.*  
hey, blackmail works...  why not use it?

the dog wants to exit and potty? fine - ASK or tell me, _"i gotta go..."_ and i provide... but i may ask the dog 
in turn, to SIT before i open that door so that i can recon the yard for invading cats, or to clip the leash, 
or just to establish some calm self-control in a bumptious dog - and i can do that, WHY? because i taught the dog what 
SIT means, and i rewarded compliance. :001_cool: *dogs do what is rewarding to them - they stop doing 
whatever behaviors cease to be rewarding.*

cheers, and this is IMO + IME, 
--- terry


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

painter24 said:


> As for the St. Bernard, it may be cruel to force him up the stairs due to the joint problems they now potentially can suffer with. But, am I mistaken in saying these fabulous beasts used to be mountain rescue dogs, and that the only reason they now suffer with these potential problems is the vanity, selfishness, arrogance and pure short sightedness of breeders and KC standards.
> 
> I've seen tonnes of posts on here, and other dog forums regarding the wrongness, cruelty of this training method or that training method, but this all seems like sheer hypocrisy when you look at the twisted and contorted shapes some of our breeds have ended up in due to breeding, not to mention some of the less visible problems that occur.
> 
> Anyway, that's my 2 penneth. *runs off and dons asbestos suit*. :scared:


You are quite right - St Bernards are mountain rescue dogs and they have been bred to be bigger and bigger, which is why, I believe, they have such a short lifespan. However, I doubt any of the trainers who taught these dogs to go up mountains and rescue people ever let a growing dog do so. Newfoundlands, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Pyranean mountain dogs, are all rescue dogs, but they all have delicate limbs whilst they are growing. Newfies and Bernese have the longer lifespan because they have not been bred for their size.

Either way, St. Bernards are what they are today and today they should not be climbing stairs!


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Just wondering, why on Earth would you want to get your dog upstairs anyway? :confused1: :confused1:

If the pup doesn't like going upstairs, then what valid reason did they have to force it to go upstairs?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> Just wondering, why on Earth would you want to get your dog upstairs anyway? :confused1: :confused1:
> 
> If the pup doesn't like going upstairs, then what valid reason did they have to force it to go upstairs?


Well, that was the sheer selfishness of it all and the point Caesar Millan should, in my opinion, have made. The only reason they had was because they wanted him in their bedroom. And it was a spiral staircase, quite a wide one admittedly, but still a scary thing.

I watched the video and I don't think the dog was afraid of the stairs; he just knew it wasn't a good idea and was behaving like my two would if asked to go upstairs (not that they would be). Anyway, if he wasn't afraid of them before, he most certainly will be now.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

YouTube - Cesar's Rules by Cesar Millan - Book Trailer :001_cool:

Does this mean CM might be wanting to learn something at last? This seems to throw his mantra of 'I am not a dog trainer' out of the window? Could we be witnessing a tentative attempt at 'crossing over' to the positive side? Or is that wishful thinking?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Lmao!! Our newfie Bronson does the exact same thing when he's told to go out a room, or in a room, or off the couch - you see where i'm going lol? If you attempt to drag him he will lie down and point blank refuse. It's a very comical thing to watch and Bronson doesnt seem to feel afraid or scared or bullied lol. We don't normally do it - it's easier to just leave him a little line of ham instead - and faster ! I didn't think that video was anywhere near as bad as people are making out. I did think the dog needed a drink though, that was the only problem i had with it. x


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, he has called his book Caesar's Rules, but they don't appear to be his rules, do they? Just everybody else's. Pity he didn't consult some of these proper experts before he made himself famous teaching people to dominate their dogs and roll them on the floor.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> YouTube - Cesar's Rules by Cesar Millan - Book Trailer :001_cool:
> 
> Does this mean CM might be wanting to learn something at last?


no, IMO he is merely trying to add to his market-saturation - 
appealing to folks who know + trust *dunbar, Hollywood k9-actors, 
or have heard of the Florida trainer [ex-cop] who trained his Schnauzer to alert on cancer-cells
and so on - he's e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g his appeal :lol: 


CarolineH said:


> This seems to throw his mantra of 'I am not a dog trainer' out of the window?
> Could we be witnessing a tentative attempt at 'crossing over' to the positive side?
> Or is that wishful thinking?


IMO, definitely wishful thinking - this is just using clips for promo.

to convince me that he is wiling to use pos-R, and KNOWS how to use pos-R, 
he will have to *verbally repudiate forceful handling* [flood, pull, jerk, intimidate, roll, pin...] 
and ** *Do!* ** *real-time, on-camera, positive-reinforcement training* and/or *pos-R B-Mod.* 
he would have to *say*, _"i don't believe flooding, forcing, coercing... is OK anymore"_ 
and then *show me* that he knows how to use pos-R to shape + reward in training, 
and how to use pos-R to re-train problem behaviors, fears and triggers.

i have only ever seen him attempt to use food 2x on camera, and both times he failed abysmally - 
offering food to a dog who was overwhelmed already, and wanted only to flee - 
so he has a very long way to go, before i think he 'gets it' - let alone think he's committed to pos-R.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> no, IMO he is merely trying to add to his market-saturation -
> appealing to folks who know + trust *dunbar, Hollywood k9-actors,
> or have heard of the Florida trainer [ex-cop] who trained his Schnauzer to alert on cancer-cells
> and so on - he's e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g his appeal :lol:
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head Terry. I would *love* to think that he was at last improving his knowledge and upgrading his methods but I think talking to Dr Dunbar was just a PR stunt to help to promote yet another mediocre book.

I shan't be recommending it in a hurry.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> ...I would *love* to think that he was at last improving his knowledge and upgrading his methods
> but I think talking to Dr Dunbar was just a PR stunt to help to promote yet another mediocre book.
> I shan't be recommending it in a hurry.


i'm gonna look at the contents in the bookstore, and see not only *who he quotes* 
but *what he suggests as tools + methods.* if he actually suggests * early, pos-R training for pups, 
* rewarding desired behavior when offered [with whatever: treat, toy, real-life reward, activity...], 
and * shaping adult-dogs toward improved behavior, *then i will be encouraged! * :thumbup:

so i am going to check it out, see what he suggests, then decide if it's just a sales-tactic 
or some actual moderation of his previous tools + methods, as demonstrated. 
[i am not expecting to be delightedly shocked  but i am hoping - for improvement.]


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

*Dr Dunbar has now written about his 'contribution' to CM's new book.:001_cool:*

*My Contribution to Cesar Milan&#039;s New Book | Dog Star Daily*

*My Contribution to Cesar Milan's New Book
September 16th, 2010 by Dr. Ian Dunbar *

September 16th, 2010 by Dr. Ian Dunbar

Cesar Millans new book  Cesars Rules  features a number of trainers describing a variety of reward-based dog training techniques. The book is both comprehensive and representative with chapters on history of training and learning theory (Bob Bailey), training dogs for TV and film (Mark Harden), off-leash lure/reward training (myself), gentle physical prompting (Martin Deeley), and cancer detection dogs at The Pine Street Clinic. Cesar Millans name and fame now showcase reward-based training techniques of other trainers to the dog-owning public. Its kind of like a vestigial book version of Dog Star Dailys Americas Dog Trainer.

Kelly, Jamie and I gave it a lot of thought before agreeing to volunteering our time to be interviewed  weighing up the pros and cons of association versus exposure. Obviously, any book with Cesars name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content. Since any content is guaranteed enormous exposure, we thought, why not have reward-based training techniques get the exposure. I was very reassured to find out that my respected colleague and good buddy Bob Bailey was also involved and I finally agreed to be interviewed and filmed after being given full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming. However, with the exception of the photo (mentioned below), veto-power was unnecessary. In all the times that I have been interviewed and filmed, I have never had my words and actions presented so accurately  almost word for word.

I have always thought, that I can do so much more good for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongly disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir. Having read the book, I am glad that I decided to be involved. I was given free rein to say what I liked and do what I liked  an extremely unusual arrangement when dealing with television production companies. I mentioned over and over that I consider touching a dog to be an earned privilege rather than a right and that training should always be off-leash and hands-off. I have always taught people, to never touch a dog to force him to comply but rather, to touch him afterwards as a reward if thats what he enjoys. I have always taught people to try and see the dogs point of view and to be patient and give the dog time when resolving behavior and temperament problems.

I sincerely hope that through this book so many more dog owners will be exposed to reward-based training techniques and specifically that they will get to enjoy the rewards of reward-based training. Namely, that people learn how to proactively teach their dogs what they would like them to do, rather than providing no instruction and then feeling the need to punish their dogs for breaking rules that they didnt even know existed.

The interview was filmed and hopefully, it will show on TV so that Hugos speed and Dunes reliability can help advertise the easiest, quickest and most enjoyable way to teach off-leash verbal control  lure/reward training. Cesar lure/reward trains his dog Junior using first food (not very effective) but then a tennis ball that instantly transforms the dog into a motivated guy. Then Cesar got to work with Hugo, starting with basic luring by teaching him in Spanish.

I have only two criticisms about the book. First, I dont like the title because I usually let owners decide on their own rules for their own dog. I consider household and lifestyle rules to be a very personal choice. However, publishers, and not authors, choose book titles and obviously they want to choose a title that will sell the book. Second, there is a really silly choice of photo in the chapter on Hands-Off Dog Training with my hands on Dunes collar. Duh!?! It looks like I am forcibly restraining Dune from goosing Cesar. I have been assured that this photograph will be replaced after the first printing.


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## smeggy (Sep 13, 2010)

he's ok he gets the job done but he seems like he is on smack or something some of the faces he pulls are just weird lol


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Dr. Ian Dunbar:
> 
> ...there is a really silly choice of photo in the chapter on Hands-Off Dog Training with my hands
> on Dunes collar. Duh!?! It looks like I am forcibly restraining Dune from goosing Cesar.
> I have been assured that this photograph will be replaced after the first printing.


 :001_tt2: oh, dear - oops.


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## Merenwenrago (Sep 5, 2010)

Ive used some of his methods on my unruly dogs and they seem to work well. They dont seem to charge in house as much anymore and sleep exactly where i want them to sleep when i just point my finger .


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I've borrowed one of his books to read, just out of curiosity as I've watched the show a few times and been pretty amazed at the results with the dog, but since being on here have heard lots of different, conflicting views about him.

I must say I tend to agree with some of his views/methods, but not others. I suppose it can be dependant upon your dog?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I have five dogs at present and have used none of his 'methods' on them yet funnily enough they all do as I want them to, when I want them to etc?


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Hes a very good trainer, but some of the things he does are not good.

A quick example is, he never trains the dogs road sense. On the shows you will often see him walking dogs on the leash in the middle of roads, just walking in the middle of roads with the dogs. That don't teach the dogs to know the roads at all and if they ever got of the lead they are liable to get run over due to running around on the road. All my trained dogs are taught road sense, and allot taught to know the roads of a leash. (Allot of my trained dogs know the roads like a human)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I must say I tend to agree with some of his views/methods, but not others.
> I suppose it can be dependant upon your dog?


hey, H+H! :--) 
the biggie is that a lot of what he *says* that is true, is not 'his' creation - it's been around for decades, 
if not centuries  _"dogs need exercise" - _ what vet hasn't said that till their face is blue?

and conversely, much of what he says that IS his, Is not True - 
_"the right energy"_ will not 'Cure' aggression, and yes, he said that on an episode. 

the overwhelming objections to CM/DW are to his handling [tools + methods both] and outdated 'pack-theory', 
which he spouts so often; labeling dogs 'dominant', reiterating that we must be pack-leaders, etc. 
what he *does* is nearly always the flash-point: jerks, chokes, floods, forces, etc, IMO; 
he may say a nice old hoary truism, then follow it with a Not-Nice old hoary jerk on a choke or prong, 
or use a 'modern' shock-collar - which only dates to the 19650s.  new controls mean diddley - 
shock-collars then as now, are intended to punish wrong-behavior, at its simplest. 
that has not changed a whit. 

dragging an unwilling, fearful, fluffy little-white-dog down the street, away from the house, 
is no less traumatic than dragging a Saint up an open spiral flight of stairs, 
or a fearful Dane across shiny, slippery lino - flooding is flooding, coercion is the same in all cases. 
JMO + IME, 
- terry


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

This thread has been so interesting to read!
I must be simple, but I just put liver cookies I had baked on all of the stairs when my Puppy (and/or) foster dogs couldnt manage, or were frightened/confused by the stairs, worked really quickly and no pushing and pulling necessary! 

Some of Cm's work is ok, and some of it just makes me scared senseless and I cringe to watch it, the more that I learned about dog training over the years, the more I disagreed with some of his methods of doing things. However I do respect that he has been a really positive influence in some dogs lives, but I certainly wouldnt pay for him to train my dogs, no 'shhhht' or pushing and pulling going on in my house and I like to think that my dogs are (mostly) always well behaved.
I guess for some people Cm has raised awareness that dogs do need attention and training, I just hope that they also explore other methods too.

Thanks for the pop-corn by the way, my favourite food!!

PS- just watched some of the anti-cesar u-tube clips, awful!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

daisy34 said:


> I must be simple, but I just put liver cookies I had baked on all of the stairs
> when my Puppy and / or foster dogs couldnt manage, or were frightened / confused
> by the stairs, worked really quickly and no pushing and pulling necessary!


:thumbup: simple is fine - :001_cool: it need not be complicated, just kind, + work without force. 
i like it - good on ya. *want a TV-show of Ur own? :thumbsup: * i'd write-in to support U!


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## olga1uk (Sep 17, 2010)

I dont really watch his show as much as i would like to but i really think he deals with the owners really well as it must be difficult as some owners create the problems within their home and find it difficult to accept they are half the problem interesting post though.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

I'll throw something into the debate that hasn't been highlighted yet.

What about the producers, the editors and the directors of the TV show? How much of the blame lies at their feet?

Who, out of the many of the CM haters here, have ever been involved in the making of a TV show? Please reply and let us know about it.

I'll start by saying that I was involved in a scripted drama when I was younger ( a TV show called Byker Grove), a regular chat show that was aired weekly for Royal Caribbean, and 2 reality TV shows (Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares and Channel 4's Wife Swap).

The latter 2 really opened my eyes a lot. Reality TV is even more Unreal than the scripted drama in my opinion. I was quite heavily involved in the filming for Wife Swap, and I can tell you that what ended up being shown on TV for Wife Swap (and Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen nightmares) was shown "out of sequence" and painted a completely distorted picture compared to what actually happened.

In one hour, the viewer was meant to be shown a weeks worth of filming. I can tell you that it went something like this: 10 minutes of Monday, 30 seconds of Wednesday, 5 minutes of Tuesday, 10 minutes of Saturday (with voice-over interview from Friday) and so on. The nice bits were left on the edit room floor and the rest used to create a montage of gripping drama.

Let's face it...that's what drama is...real life with the boring bits cut out.

When I went to see Caesar Milan LIVE, in person, on a stage, unscripted...guess what? He didn't once half choke any dog to death, alpha roll a dog over or any of that stuff. What he did do though was use food as a reward for positive behaviour, go over the basics of responsible dog ownership, covered bringing a new puppy home...from the point of view of the puppy (very cleverly done with a camera as the puppy's view, and Caesar as the cat) etc. The bloke clearly understands dogs and animals.

But then again, I suppose that anyone who's met my friend would also say that she's not really anything like the person they thought she'd be from watching Wife Swap.

So, I'll end the thread by asking again, have any of the more prolific CM haters here ever been involved in filming a reality TV show/documentary? If so, did you feel that the final edit represented a fair portrayal of the actual events you personally witnessed? :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> What about the producers, the editors and the directors...?
> How much of the blame lies at their feet?


what did they do, classix? :huh: put a prong-collar on *cesar + MAKE him drag the Saint up the steps? 
did he wear 4 or 5 shock-collars linked round his waist, under his clothes, and the director would _ZAP!_ him 
when he took too-long to force the dog to do X on camera?  awww... poor *cesar.

did they fake the film-footage of *cesar kic... errrmm, TAPPING various dogs with his foot? 
did they use stand-ins to 'lift' the dogs by skinny slip-leads... _"that wasn't REALLY *cesar, it was his stunt-double!"_ 
or to hoist the dog by a choke-chain? _*cesar would never do that... :eek6: it's all a fake!"_


classixuk said:


> Reality TV is even more Unreal than the scripted drama IMO.
> ...what ended up being shown on TV... was shown "out of sequence" and painted a completely distorted picture
> [re] what actually happened. In one hour, the viewer was meant to [see] a week's...filming. I can tell you...
> it went something like this: 10 mins of Mon, 30 secs of Wed, 5 mins of Tues, 10 mins of Sat (...voice-over... from Fri)
> and so on. ...bits were left on the edit room floor and the rest [created] a montage of gripping drama.


several of the couples who appeared on CM/DW have stated that clips were shown out of sequence, 
to heighten the drama or to exaggerate the behavior; one woman said that her dog was made to look 
much-more aggressive than s/he actually is; then we have *cesar claiming that editing is minimal, 
ACCORDING * TO * HIS * FAN-CLUB --- to the best of my knowledge, *cesar has never claimed 
that editing is minimal, sequencing is real time-line, and that no deliberate provocation is used 
to get the dogs to react more intensely on-camera + add *'more color'.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from the per-reviewed journal article, 
Volume VII Issue 1

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Just Found: "Mythologies and Commodifications of Dominion in CM/DW" 


> EXCERPT - *bold added - *
> 
> _ Each episode is constructed as follows:
> the dog is filmed performing his problem behavior, a male human voice-over
> ...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

daisy34 said:


> This thread has been so interesting to read!
> I must be simple, but I just put liver cookies I had baked on all of the stairs when my Puppy (and/or) foster dogs couldnt manage, or were frightened/confused by the stairs, worked really quickly and no pushing and pulling necessary!


Exactly the same way I eventually got my newfoundland up the ramp into the car! But a giant breed walking up a ramp is not the same as forcing him to climb stairs, which is why I am right of CM.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tomorrow morning (Sunday) at 10 am on Sky 3 we have, according to the write up, Victoria Stillwell sorting out a 6ft Great Dane on Its Me or The Dog USA. I am looking forward to watching this: I doubt there will be any forcing, prong collars, e-collars or high energy runs involved.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Tomorrow morning (Sunday) at 10 am on Sky 3 we have, according to the write up, Victoria Stillwell sorting out a 6ft Great Dane on Its Me or The Dog USA. I am looking forward to watching this: I doubt there will be any forcing, prong collars, e-collars or high energy runs involved.


Think I've seen this one... or was it the British one? Either way it was good!


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

classixuk said:


> What about the producers, the editors and the directors of the TV show? How much of the blame lies at their feet?


And what about the people who watch the show/buy the books and DVD's? How much are they to blame? Who is responsible for adding the ridiculous disclaimers saying that people should not try this at home when they know full well that that is exactly what they are going to do?



classixuk said:


> In one hour, the viewer was meant to be shown a weeks worth of filming. I can tell you that it went something like this: 10 minutes of Monday, 30 seconds of Wednesday, 5 minutes of Tuesday, 10 minutes of Saturday (with voice-over interview from Friday) and so on. The nice bits were left on the edit room floor and the rest used to create a montage of gripping drama.
> 
> Let's face it...that's what drama is...real life with the boring bits cut out.


Very true, very true, however, I don't think DW is meant to be a drama or even reality TV, it is meant to be entertaining obviously, but is the point not to educate people? If that is indeed the programmes intention then should it not at least be based on facts?



classixuk said:


> When I went to see Caesar Milan LIVE, in person, on a stage, unscripted...guess what? He didn't once half choke any dog to death, alpha roll a dog over or any of that stuff. What he did do though was use food as a reward for positive behaviour, go over the basics of responsible dog ownership, covered bringing a new puppy home...from the point of view of the puppy (very cleverly done with a camera as the puppy's view, and Caesar as the cat) etc.


Were those dogs that he had brought with him or were they from the audience? As you explained earlier what we see on TV are edited highlights and the techniques you mention here are not the 'quick fix' solutions that the programme would have us believe. They take time and can often give very unpredictable results, depending on the individual dog. Positive reinforcement however can get good results very quickly and works on ALL dogs.



classixuk said:


> The bloke clearly understands dogs and animals.


I think he understands how to read body language but it is his interpretations of the motives behind that body language that are so often misguided. Understanding what a dog is thinking and understanding how to force it to do what you want are two very different things.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

classixuk said:


> I'll throw something into the debate that hasn't been highlighted yet.
> 
> What about the producers, the editors and the directors of the TV show? How much of the blame lies at their feet?
> 
> Who, out of the many of the CM haters here, have ever been involved in the making of a TV show? Please reply and let us know about it.


The production company and directors dictate what format the show will take so yes, they bear a lot of the blame for the false impressions these programmes give. But then, any person with an ounce of sense and a modicum of knowledge will realise how contrived these shows are and that they are filmed for entertainment, not education.

I was filmed in my capacity as a dog behaviourist and trainer for a Pet Rescue Episode once. It was so scripted and fake I refused to do it again - especially as the RSPCA sheleter we filmed at were naff all useless as well. The presenter herself irritated me as she was useless at handling the dog and it was like having to supervise a six year old child! I expected better from an animal show presenter I suppose. :001_cool: The programme itself came out ok but made me realise how false and contrived these programmes are - I lost count of the times we were filmed simply coming through a door! On another occasion, I was also filmed alongside Carolyn Menteith for some dog related series which visited shows and open days. My class were doing a demonstration at an open day and Carolyn was flimed walking along with me discussing training methods etc and then they filmed my class doing the demo. That wasn't bad and was quite non-scripted as far as I recall. I was also filmed for a dog care related video - well my class was during training anyway! The late John Fisher was also on the same video though we never met him as he was filmed elsewhere. I cannot recall what the name of the video was though and my copy has disappeared somewhere in the house.  No video player now anyway! 

Yes, tv programmes are not always what they seem but as ever, the gullible public are taken in and believe it all happens just like that and that the trainer is a hero who works wonders with dogs, whether he knows much or not!! I'd be damned if I would rehearse a dog savaging me whilst I alpha rolled it though! I wonder how many takes that takes to get 'right'? 

Oh and I think the term 'CM Hater' may apply to a few maybe, who look at things in a childish way, but as I do not know the guy I cannot say that I 'hate' him. I disagree with his methods and despair of his lack of basic knowledge but I don't hate him. The word 'hate' does not apply in my case I assure you.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

All I know about the making of a tv programme was that my son appeared in a channel 4 series about disabled children and sports. It took them a whole weekend to film and lasted for fifteen minutes! I have never thought it happens "just like that" but I do think it is dangerous to put the wrong message across.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I for one would not choose his methods, especially with aggressive dogs. Have you seen the one with the aggressive Malamute? It certainly gave him a run for his money, ripped his shirt to shreds and his arm but he stuck with it and it was so much better afterwards that I believe he has "something" which the vast majority of us haven't - courage if nothing else! At least the owners could handle this Mal afterwards but for how long who knows?

I do believe in his calm approach with dogs though and by that I mean the owner being calm as it has worked with me and Flynn - this boy knows when i'm scared and acts upon it, so I have to stay calm and it's not always easy for someone like me - if I even begin to react in a negetive way he picks up on it immediately.

As for prong/e collars/electric fencing - it seems common place in the States, on joining a dog forum there I was amazed just how much these things are used!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Yes, tv programmes are not always what they seem but as ever, the gullible public are taken in and believe it all happens just like that and that the trainer is a hero who works wonders with dogs, whether he knows much or not!!
> I'd be damned if I would rehearse a dog savaging me whilst I alpha-rolled [the dog,] though!
> I wonder how many takes that takes to get 'right'?


thanks :lol: i am wiping-off my laptop-screen as i type,  it was worth it, i have tears in my eyes :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> At least the owners could handle this Mal [mix] afterward, but for how long, who knows?


on a more-serious note  Shadow's owners, despite saying _how much they loved him,_ etc, 
gave him up to a Malamute-rescue later. he has been adopted, but no update on his behavior. 
i wish him a better life, now, and hope his adopter help him with his on-leash reactivity.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> what did they do, classix? :huh: put a prong-collar on *cesar + MAKE him drag the Saint up the steps?
> did he wear 4 or 5 shock-collars linked round his waist, under his clothes, and the director would _ZAP!_ him
> when he took too-long to force the dog to do X on camera?  awww... poor *cesar.
> 
> ...


I'm just reading the replies, and this is the first one I've come to.

I need to ask though...Terry, why do you quote me but then change parts of my post within the quote tags? Like this...



> Originally Posted by classixuk View Post
> Reality TV is even more Unreal than the scripted drama IMO.
> ...what ended up being shown on TV... was shown "out of sequence" and painted a completely distorted picture
> [re] what actually happened. In one hour, the viewer was meant to [see] a week's...filming. I can tell you...
> ...


Why all the dots and square brackets? :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Why all the dots and square brackets? :confused1:


ellipses make it shorter - the full-length, every word post is right there for reference.  
... = i skipped sumthin; [brackets mean i inserted sumthin].
cheers, 
- t


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> ... it is his interpretations of the motives behind that body language that are so often misguided.


yes - 
when i watched his episodes [from #1 thru August-2009, every single one] it often felt as tho he + i should 
have been seeing two very-different dogs - listening to his voice-over or the dialogue as he described the dog, 
and while i watched the dog, was often an utter mismatch.

it was like watching a muted football-game on TV while a baseball-game is play-by-play over the radio - 
:crazy: no congruence! :eek6: _and why do i know this?_ because a M college-friend used to do that, 
O-M-G it made me nutz, i finally told him either turn-off the TV or turn-off the radio, 
*or don't invite me over while U do this,* cuz the sensory collision made me itch mentally. 
yeesh  listen AND look - preferably at the same thing.

*cesar constantly referred to dogs as 'being dominant' when the dog was scared spitless, 
tail-down, ears airplaned, head turtled and rump lowered - it was incredible to me that *what he said* 
was meant to caption *what i observed*, which when it came to emotional-state or the dog's intention, 
often was completely incongruous - not just 'a different impression' or 'mild disagreement', 
but flat-out misinterpretation and misstatement, IMO, over months + years as an audience-member.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> ellipses make it shorter - the full-length, every word post is right there for reference.
> ... = i skipped sumthin; [brackets mean i inserted sumthin].
> cheers,
> - t


But how can it be a quote if you insert things? :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> But how can it be a quote if you [put in] things? :confused1:


because i don't change the sense of the quoted material.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> ...I rather fancy Classixuk if I'm honest...he's kinda hot looking...gets my engine roaring. I reckon I could POS-R him with a few doggy style tricks of my own


:eek6: :eek6: :eek6:


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> on a more-serious note  Shadow's owners, despite saying _how much they loved him,_ etc,
> gave him up to a Malamute-rescue later. he has been adopted, but no update on his behavior.
> i wish him a better life, now, and hope his adopter help him with his on-leash reactivity.




aww didnt know that 
Malamutes can be tough breeds, this boy was an extreme example of course, but it shows you _really _need to know what you are getting into

Hope the mally is ok x



classixuk said:


> :eek6: :eek6: :eek6:


and where have you been hiding? You better have a good excuse young man!


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Starlite said:


> and where have you been hiding? You better have a good excuse young man!


I think it is one...been working on a website development (not a pet one) LOL. It's nearly finished though, hence me finding a bit of time to get back into my old routine and meet back up with my friends on here.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

What is with these people anyway?

Dogs shoudn't be FORCED go to upstairs anyway, regardless of what breed - if a dog doesn't like stairs it shouldn't be that big a deal - unless of course those people have a house where stairs lead to go down and out to the front when they need to take him for a walk but really! I used to like CM but when i started watching Victoria Stilwell on Its Me or the Dog i preferred her methods better than CM!


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

ad_1980 said:


> What is with these people anyway?
> 
> Dogs shoudn't be FORCED go to upstairs anyway, regardless of what breed - if a dog doesn't like stairs it shouldn't be that big a deal - unless of course those people have a house where stairs lead to go down and out to the front when they need to take him for a walk but really! I used to like CM but when i started watching Victoria Stilwell on Its Me or the Dog i preferred her methods better than CM!


And being prone to joint problems i certainly wouldnt be making a st bernard use stairs, i have never let my big breed dogs use stairs. theres no need for them to come upstairs and if there is ive carryed them (for baths etc)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Just watched Victoria Stillwell on Its me or the dog USA. The people had this enormous great dane who was totally out of control and she managed to get him exactly where they all wanted him (i.e. not in charge of the whole household), without a single forceful tool or anything else. Just firm commands and treats and loads of patience. She is great!


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I gave up watching CM after I saw him use the prong collars and choke chains. Dominating dogs is how things were done in the 50s and 60s, and we've come a long way since then.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jetsmum said:


> Dominating dogs is how things were done in the 50s and 60s, and we've come a long way since then.


one would hope, :thumbup: but some of us haven't, sadly for the dogs - 
and also IMO for their families. 
- terry


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## DanaK (Sep 27, 2010)

I see Shadow at our neighborhood dog park almost daily. Shadow was adopted by a wonderful man who has at least four other husky/malamute mixes. Shadow is one of the four dogs he brings to the park. At the park, Shadow is off leash, walking around the park, interacting peacefully and playing with other dogs, getting affection from strangers and doing all the other normal dog stuff you'd expect. Beautiful, sweet dog! (And a perfect example of how the dog whisperer's methods do not work on all dogs)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DanaK said:


> ...Shadow was adopted by a wonderful man who has at least four other Husky/Mal mixes.
> Shadow is one of the four dogs he brings to the park. [he] is off leash, walking around the park, interacting peacefully
> and playing with other dogs, getting affection from strangers and doing all the other normal dog stuff you'd expect.
> Beautiful, sweet dog! (And a perfect example of how the dog whisperer's methods do not work on all dogs)


_Wonderful! :thumbup:_


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> _Wonderful! :thumbup:_


My own little ESS is another case.......

Harsh handling got him NO WHERE. Except a quivering wreck and made his ''behaviour'' worse.......with added extra ones. That took me a very long time to sort out.. it included: time lots and lots and lots, tons of patience, giant sized loves and cuddles and plenty money! Some problems will stay with for life though :frown: :frown:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

DanaK said:


> I see Shadow at our neighborhood dog park almost daily. Shadow was adopted by a wonderful man who has at least four other husky/malamute mixes. Shadow is one of the four dogs he brings to the park. At the park, Shadow is off leash, walking around the park, interacting peacefully and playing with other dogs, getting affection from strangers and doing all the other normal dog stuff you'd expect. Beautiful, sweet dog! (And a perfect example of how the dog whisperer's methods do not work on all dogs)


So he did not need the treatment that the so called *Dog Whisperer* put him through. He just needed owners with the time and patience needed to help him over his problems without force or punishment. So much for him being 'dominant' eh?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Seen this?

My Contribution to Cesar Millan&#039;s New Book | Dog Star Daily


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I've avoided this thread for a while and simply lurked but now I feel sort of compelled to post.

I, like Caroline and leashedforlife hate the so called "dog whisperer", Cesar Millan's methods. Contrary to what many CM fans will say I do not hate him (it's not like I know the man personally), what I despise is the way he treats dogs.

Why is this?
I feel disheartened that someone with so little knowledge of how dogs really work is able to fool the public and indeed himself into believing that dogs are these animals that crave dominance and need harsh treatment in order to keep them in line. 
It's not only the dogs that feature in his programme that suffer this treatment, but millions of other dogs worldwide whose owners have been fooled into believing that their dog is some kind of power crazy creature and is trying madly to control every situation that meets them in life. Honestly, dogs DO NOT want to rule the world!

In some ways it's not only his belief in this incredibly flawed theory that is the worst thing, I will come on to that in a moment.
Indeed dominance theory is, as just mentioned, an incredibly flawed, outdated theory and a grave misunderstanding and interpretation of canine behaviour. It is based on flawed wolf studies, where wolves where placed into captivity and so called "zoologists" observed their behaviour. They claimed that the wolves formed a pack, where an alpha male established himself as leader and obtained control of the main resources as well as asserting his authority upon those in his social group. It has since been confirmed that several of these findings where made up, and that furthermore wolves in the wild, their natural habitat, do not form "packs" with an alpha as leader. On the contrary, they tend to form small familial groups, much like humans, with the young only moving on when mature to start their own familial group. The wolves in the original "dominance" study had been put in a very unnatural environment with other wolves that were not members of their familial group. They were unable to perform normal behaviours; hunting is just an example and instead where given their food by humans- so is it any surprise that they performed more extreme resource guarding behaviours (which the "zoologists" misinterpreted and claimed as "dominant" behaviours). 
Despite the amount of evidence that disproves the original "dominance" wolf studies, many still support it and claim that as dogs are "related" to wolves and so perform the same "dominant behaviours". Unfortunately these people are unable to understand the following two assumptions in understanding canine (and to a certain extend, wolf) behaviour:

1. Many so called "dominant" wolf type behaviours that are seen in dogs are *adaptive*! What does this mean? The purpose they serve is to ensure the survival of the animal and/or their offspring! Nothing to do with dominance! Let's take resource guarding as an example. Resource guarding, is as the name would suggest when dogs guard high value resources. A dog or wolf that resource guards is not a dominant one. It is an animal that is responding to environmental cues about it's likelihood of survival and/or the value of the resource. The behaviour derives from a time when, for wild canines, food resources where scarce and so, there was never any guarantee of frequent opportunities to feed. Feeding meant survival and so guarding behaviours were needed in order to ensure that the food was not stolen by another animals. It's survival of the fittest at it's simplest form! When we see these behaviours in dogs it is because we are dealing with innate behaviours. I could go on and on but the following article explains more:
https://sites.google.com/site/lucysdogblog/articles/resource-guarding

2. *Dogs are not wolves!* 
Whilst they share several innate behaviours (which yep have nothing to do with dominance!) and are related to the wolf (canis lupus). Canis familiaris, (the latin name given to domestic canines) are very different to wolves. Why? Because we have selectively bred them for thousands of years to produce an animal that can aid our survival and live among us. It is said that dog's are the natural companion for the human race. They have evolved to read our body language, which is something that is totally unseen in every other species:
Dogs have evolved 'face reading' skills to detect if their owner is happy or sad | Mail Online
We have selective bred them to produce a dog that has specific skills that have helped us to evolve as a race. Taking retrievers as an example: How many wolves do you think there are that would retrieve game? Now sheep dogs: how many wolves are there that would herd a flock of sheep into a fenced area on command? The answer to that question is none! In both cases the game (even if already dead) would meet a messy end, as would the sheep. Dogs are not wolves! Yes they share some *innate hard wiring* but *they are not the same* species and they should not be treated as such. To suggest that they are is an injustice to them and their intelligence, breeding and working abilities.

As I mentioned earlier, it is not only CM's insistence in dominance ideas that I find most upsetting. It is the methods that accompany such beliefs. Many of you will have seen how he terribly misinterprets dogs' behaviour, brands them as "dominant" and then jabs, kicks, alpha rolls and totally floods them, completely ignoring all calming and appeasement signals (no doubt because he has little or no ability to recognise them in any case) to the point where the poor dogs, no longer able to cope, either totally shut down (which is what he calls "calm submissive energy"- apparently this is what he aims for!!! ), petrified or display extremely reactive behaviours in a fit of pure panic and fear, totally unable to cope (at which point they are branded aggressive  Poor things!) ! 

Many suggest that he is successful in turning dogs around, who otherwise would have been PTS. I do not believe this. I don't doubt that there was a chance that the dog may have been PTS but I do not agree that his methods were in any way successful in rehabilitating the dog. For starters he is aiming for what he calls "calm submissive energy" - which is really the dog shutting down. That is not rehabilitation and does not solve anything. If anything the dog may regress further!
What should be aimed for is a dog that shows a calm, non-reactive, confident response to the previously feared stimulus. Positive reinforcement trainers do not achieve this by flooding, hitting and cruelly man-handling a dog. They do so by positively changing the dog's emotional response, very gradually at the dog's pace. The result- a happy dog 

So just to conclude, I have nothing against the bloke personally but what I absolutely HATE is his methods and the way that joe public are using them on their own dogs (whether in an attempt to simply explain behaviour or "change" it). I HATE the way that more and more people are refering back to a flawed theory in an attempt to explain and change their dog's behaviour!! Until the introduction of his show, the dog training world had been making positive steps away from dominance and towards understanding how dogs really work. Thanks to so-called "trainers" such as CM, we have seriously regressed


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2010)

And just when you think it is safe to come out!!!

Lemmy makes a post:scared::scared::scared:

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
lol
DT


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And just when you think it is safe to come out!!!
> 
> Lemmy makes a post:scared::scared::scared:
> 
> ...


*BOO!*  :lol: (did I scare you!)


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> *BOO!*  :lol: (did I scare you!)


you've got me running like hell! for cover from the onslaught of the fans that follows the toothpaste man AKA CM around!

:scared::scared::scared:


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> you've got me running like hell! for cover from the onslaught of the fans that follows the toothpaste man AKA CM around!
> 
> :scared::scared::scared:


:lol: 
:scared: :scared: :scared:

*** Ducks for cover***


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

You took the words right outta my mouth there Lemmsy - agreed with every one.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, I will go one further because, if I don't like someone's beliefs and weird ideas, then I don't like them. So no, I don't like his methods and I don't like him either. It is high time he watched a few of Victoria Stilwell's programmes, studied some up to date books and behaviour studies and got himself into the 21st century.

His methods all rest on the fact that he was raised on a farm with various packs of dogs and his training methods come from copying those dogs. Dogs know the different between a human and a dog, and whilst his intentions might have been good to begin with, he needs to revise his thinking.

I used to be a huge fan, but I will never forgive him for dragging that poor St Bernard puppy up a spiral staircase.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The st bernard episode is on nat geo wild now if anyone wants to watch it. The herding dog chasing people around that run and scream... it's clearly dominant. I'm with the little kid who says he's mean and doesn't want him to hurt her dog.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> The herding dog chasing people around that run and scream... it's clearly dominant


I not really sure which episode you are referring to or whether indeed this is a serious comment (so sorry if I have misinterpreted) but I would seriously disagree with the idea that a herding dog that chases (HERDS!!!- hence the name!) is a dominant dog! 
What we are dealing with in a herding breed that chases people who are moving quickly and highly aroused is nothing to do with dominance. We are dealing with selectively bred hard wiring and lack of impulse control, which is something we need to condition and desensitize to. Fearful behaviour may also play a part depending on the dog!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with dominance.
Remember dogs don't do dominance- they don't have perception of self, it's not on their wave length. What they DO do is respond to environmental cues and previously reinforced behaviours!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's the same episode as the saint bernard. A little herding mix that when people come to the house chases and barks at them but has never bit before Cesar "trained" it. He said it was displaying territorial dominant aggression


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> He said it was displaying territorial dominant aggression


I would seriously challenge that!!!

What is the name of the episode??
Wouldn't mind taking a look at this "dominant" dog!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Tobi and Riley. He did say some of it was the herding part of it but most of it was dominance. It's on Nat Geo Wild right now


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> A little herding mix that when people come to the house chases and barks at them
> but has never bit before Cesar "trained" [her/him]. He said [the dog] was displaying *territorial dominant aggression*.


the dog is *dominant* to the ground it stands on? :crazy: that does not sound right... 
then again, info and its source?...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It was in the Tobi and Riley episode. He didn't even train him pawned him off on his protege the woman who runs second chance rescue.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I didn't realise they were trying to get the St Bernard puppy upstairs from 4 months . Surely that's going to hurt his joints a lot.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Ok. Watching the extract of Toby just now.

Behaviour observations:

- Visitor comes in. Tobi immediately tenses up, raised tail, moves slowly away, behind a chair. Looking very non-confrontational here. He really does not want to react- he would much rather "flee" or avoid the situation. 
- He is behind the chair, the visitor walks past very close to the left of him. Tobi's body language is pure panic although, until this point he is unreactive. The owner jabs or pushes him backwards. This sets him high above his reactivity threshold, although not that he does not try to lunge until the visitor is ahead and not facing or looking at him. All the signs of a highly underconfident dog 
More corrections from owner and CM and the dog makes a dash for it, up the stairs and after the visitor. He gets to the room where he thinks the visitor is. Pauses there with an erect, raised tail. Owner stamps on lead, gives a "correction". Tobi pants, eye blinks. 
CM lets visitor out, owner jabs and tells Tobi "NO!" repeatedly despite a non-reactive response. He is looking at him but does not bark, despite an erect tail and tense body.
Owner returns down the stairs with Tobi in front. They return to the hall/entrance way (an area of high tension, where Tobi has previously been reinforced for defensive, reactive behaviour). He barks as visitor passes closer by him, owner jabs. This stresses him and he becomes very reactive lunging and growling. CM takes Tobi jabs him, visitor has left. Note Toby's slow wagging tail, a sign of internal conflict. He is unsure how to react. Stressed.
...
_Cesar begins jabbering on about him being a red zone case, the dog needing more help. About him needing to understand his place as a follower. Cesar claims he needs to establish the "source" of his aggression. Tells them he is a liability. _

My opinion:

This is far from a "dominant" dog. Tobi is clearly highly stressed by visitors coming into the house. The jabbing corrections by CM and owner, only serve to bring him further above his reactivity threshold and make him more reactive. 
During the episode he displays several calming and avoidant behaviours. Clearly he does not want to engage in reactive, "aggressive" behaviours but he is given no alternative. 
Neither owner or CM use any form of positivity when Tobi displays non-reactive behaviour!

If this were my dog I would do the following:

1. Avoid exposing him to situations that he is unlikely to be able to deal with, especially whilst you, the owner are still unclear on how you will handle the dog in such situations. Leave him in another room with a kong toy or something to keep him occupied and relaxed. Remember that avoidance of rehearsal of undesirable behaviours is a good thing!
2. I would be working on counter-conditioning and desensitizing him to the situation of visitors to the house. You need to change his emotion response to this stimulus. Visitors means good things happen. Start reinforcing calm non-reactive behaviours way beyond his reactivity threshold. Only begin moving closer once he is 100% successful at that level. If at any time he regresses, take it back a stage and reinforce calm, non-reactive behaviours at that level and take a more gradual step towards the next level. Eventually you should be at the point where a visitor can enter in a high arousal environment without a reaction. Visitors should also be able to pass by the dog (with the dog on the lead) with the dog happily taking food from the owner and displaying calm, non-reactive behaviour. It is once they are at this point that you ask the visitor to toss food on the floor for them. Not touch them or pet them or hand feed them. Everything has to be incredibly gradual but you get the idea. Gradually move on to a raised hand, then possibly hand feeding. 
I would also desensitize and counter-condition for cues such as the doorbell so that the dog shows a non-reactive response to this, especially as you do not want a high aroused stressed dog before they even enter.

Anyway before I go off on a tangent! Far from a dominant dog IMO, more of an underconfident one who has been far from helped by the owner's management of the situation!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

At the end Cesar has him sit with the kid he was chasing. He's avoiding eye contact, panting, licking his lips and Cesar says look how calm and happy he is now . He's far from happy.

He's clearly a collie/sheltie/akita/lab mix isn't he?


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> At the end Cesar has him sit with the kid he was chasing. He's avoiding eye contact, panting, licking his lips and Cesar says look how calm and happy he is now . He's far from happy.


 

Poor lad 



> He's clearly a collie/sheltie/akita/lab mix isn't he?


LOL!

TBH I thought I saw a fair bit of beardie in there?
But that wasn't mentioned 

Or is it just me :confused1:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He was stressed out the whole way through. He had the kid walk him maybe a good idea show the kid he wasn't bad and was telling him to give leash correction etc. I always wondered why the calm-submissive dogs were always panting before I knew it is a stress signal


I thought maybe some terrier from the coat or maybe some beardie maybe pyrennean sheepdog . But no way is there any akita or lab.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> anyone else for some?


I don't know where you found that little animation thingy... but he's so cute!!!!


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

Charlieboy1980 said:


> I see your a fan, i suppose it was the way he pulled him up the stairs, no encouragement or praise when he did it.
> 
> Each to their own i suppose


It is usually those who cry "Millan pulled a dog upstairs" also the ones who put their dogs to sleep just because their experts can't help them with eggresice behaviours, which I suppose is also humane.
It is usually able psychologists who sill push you when you need to overcome certain fears, otherwise you'll never ever make that transition due to sweaty hands....
It is the same with dogs, and I don't mean to say that I always agree with Millan.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't put a dog to sleep because it was aggressive unless I had tried to rehabilitate him first. Not every dog Cesar works with is going to be euthanised. The dalmation puppy that stole food and ran out the firehouse door, the standard poodle that spun in circles when it saw cars, the rottweiler that the owner never walked that tried to herd her horses? None of these dogs were on death row. I was reading his book about the first few series and so many of the dogs were rehomed AFTER he "rehabilitated" them because the owners couldn't cope. Can't accuse the book of anti-Cesar bias he presumably had a hand in writing it


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

delir said:


> It is usually those who cry "Millan pulled a dog upstairs" also the ones who put their dogs to sleep just because their experts can't help


Don't agree, the dog owners I know wouldn't Let this guy near their dogs, me neither ... not all of us have/have had perfect dogs, but we aren't the type to pts either


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> It is usually those who cry "Millan pulled a dog upstairs" also the ones who put their dogs to sleep just because their experts can't help them with eggresice behaviours, which I suppose is also humane.
> It is usually able psychologists who sill push you when you need to overcome certain fears, otherwise you'll never ever make that transition due to sweaty hands....
> It is the same with dogs, and I don't mean to say that I always agree with Millan.


We are not talking about any ordinary dog here; we are talking about a giant breed puppy, still growing, who is NOT afraid of the stairs but has more sense than to try to attempt them. As a professional, CM should have told the owners not to be so bloody selfish, they would damage his joints. There was no good reason for the dog to be climbing stairs. Are you saying that any dog who does not do precisely what the owners want, is going to be given up on? What utter BS

I have phobias, but I have never been to a psychologist because it is easy for me to avoid what I am scared of. However, I do not believe that forcing a scary situation on to anyone, human or dog, is going to cure the fear; it is going to make it a lot worse. Dogs brains do not work like human brains; we can tell ourselves that our fears are irrational and we go to get a cure voluntarily, because we want it. Nobody is forcing it on to us. Dogs don't rationalise - dogs need to associate something good with their fear in order to overcome them. Force them into facing a terror and they become even more afraid and even more aggressive.


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Don't agree, the dog owners I know wouldn't Let this guy near their dogs, me neither ... not all of us have/have had perfect dogs, but we aren't the type to pts either


You are just confirming what I've stated:

It is usually the ones who don't want Millan near their dogs and take them to experts, the ones who use the non-outdated methods who usually put to sleep dogs which they can't help and DESERVE TO LIVE!

Thanks for confirming my beliefs!


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> We are not talking about any ordinary dog here; we are talking about a giant breed puppy, still growing, who is NOT afraid of the stairs but has more sense than to try to attempt them. As a professional, CM should have told the owners not to be so bloody selfish, they would damage his joints. There was no good reason for the dog to be climbing stairs. Are you saying that any dog who does not do precisely what the owners want, is going to be given up on? What utter BS
> 
> I have phobias, but I have never been to a psychologist because it is easy for me to avoid what I am scared of. However, I do not believe that forcing a scary situation on to anyone, human or dog, is going to cure the fear; it is going to make it a lot worse. Dogs brains do not work like human brains; we can tell ourselves that our fears are irrational and we go to get a cure voluntarily, because we want it. Nobody is forcing it on to us. Dogs don't rationalise - dogs need to associate something good with their fear in order to overcome them. Force them into facing a terror and they become even more afraid and even more aggressive.


Apparently your phobias are not the crippling type of phobias. Tell that to someone who is afraid of open spaces. Of course, we all do have our manageable phobias, but that's not anything that even needs `professional help.

"CM should have told the owners not to be so bloody selfish, they would damage his joints."

There you go again crying "animal abuse" just because Millan pulled him gently upstair. Did he mercilessly yank at the leash? Hell no! Is he going to destroy his joints? :lol: Obviosly you have no clue what animal abuse is.

I have a friend who suffered from fear of open spaces, Agoraphobia. This was a crippling condition and I and you may smile at the situation but we indeed do not suffer from such condition and are not in this persons' shoes.
He consulted a psychiatrist, took medicine for a long time but one day the physician told him:
You must face your fears one way or another: If you don't do it now with my help and the help of medication you will never overcome this condition.
We cannot generalise, granted, but as you saw in Millan's case, the dog DID overcome his fears.
Why is it that you people tend to make a simple situation into a Wagnerian type of tragedy?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

delir said:


> ...those who cry "Millan pulled a dog upstairs" [are] also [those] who [euth] their dogs...
> just because their experts can't help them with [aggressive?] behaviours, which I suppose is also humane.


i'm one of those Cesar-critics, and i am also in good company; Dodman, Dunbar, AVSAB, AHA, et al. 
i'm also a trainer, and my clients with aggro-dogs Did Not put their dogs down; nor do i suggest euthanasia 
for fixable problems, myself; as it happens, i don't do basic-training, i do B-Mod for often-serious problems. 


delir said:


> It is usually able psychologists who [will? still?] push you when you need to overcome
> certain fears, otherwise you'll never ever make that transition due to sweaty hands....
> It is the same with dogs, and I don't mean to say that I always agree with Millan.


B-mod done properly does not make exciting-TV; it goes step by step, the *subject* sets the speed, 
and most of all, it is about long-term success - not running up a flight of steps and using the momentum 
to drag a terrified Great Dane across a slick floor, which is not going to 'help the dog get over it', but convince 
the dog he is helpless and has no options; he is forced to go where he fears to tread, *but he feels no safer.* 
as a matter of fact, his faith in people - his trust - has just been violated, if not destroyed.

_teaching a dog to conquer their fears is not about coercion. 
it's teaching a new emotional response - confidence._


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I have phobias, but I have never been to a psychologist because it is easy for me to avoid [my triggers].
> However, I do not believe that forcing a scary situation on to anyone, human or dog, is going to cure the fear;
> it is going to make it a lot worse. Dogs brains do not work like human brains; we can tell ourselves that our fears
> are irrational and we go to get a cure voluntarily, because we want it. Nobody is forcing it on to us.
> ...


rep! :thumbup: brilliant summary.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

delir said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> There you go again crying "animal abuse" *just because Millan pulled him gently [upstairs].*


gently? :scared: he used a choke-chain and the dog was resisting massively.


delir said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Did he *mercilessly yank at the leash*? Hell no! Is he going to destroy his joints? :lol: Obviosly you have no clue
> what animal abuse is.


'yank' implies short and abrupt - *haul* like a tow-boat on a barge, seems more accurate, in this instance?

and Giant-breed pups have bigger bodies with the same cartilaginous joints as smaller breeds, with more bone 
and more mass; yes, they are at higher risk for joint injury than a toy, medium, or large-breed pup.


delir said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> We cannot generalise, granted, but as you saw in Millan's case, *the dog DID overcome his fears.*
> Why is it that you people tend to make a simple situation into a Wagnerian type of tragedy?


'giving up' is not becoming confident - and Dawg-Wrassler is ALL ABOUT drama, tragedy, etc. 
_it's about ratings, folks! the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat - 
the confrontation of man vs wolf, civilization vs the Wild, society vs anarchy!..._  ri-i-ight...


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> I think the eposide when he finds out one of his clients had the dog put to sleep because CM "methods" didnt work reallly sums up that he doesnt use realistic methods for the average JO!


May I ask you, who put to sleep the dog? That has been my major concern about people who just bash millan and consider summarily executing dogs preferable to giving him another chance to live.
wasn't it logical to take this dog to a "real" expert to save this dog or was it the end of the rope? 

I'm really confusedddddd.


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> My partner always says that a man like CM must have nothing downstiars thats why he feels the need to go on and on and on about dominant behaviour to make himself feel large and in charge






> I think the eposide when he finds out one of his clients had the dog put to sleep because CM "methods" didnt work reallly sums up that he doesnt use realistic methods for the average JO!


Admittedly your methods didn't work either, right?
Apparently it is `preferable to execute dogs than to help them and in the process accuse Millan of being as incompetent as your experts.

My comment would be: Poor dog!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Not every dog Cesar works with is going to be euthanised.
> The Dalmation puppy that stole food and ran out the firehouse door,
> the standard Poodle that spun in circles when it saw cars,
> the Rottweiler that the owner never walked, [who] tried to herd her horses? None of these dogs were on death row.


yes - claiming it's always *"death by euthanasia, or Cesar!"* is a wild exaggeration. 


Nicky10 said:


> I was reading his book about the first few series and so many of the dogs were rehomed
> AFTER he "rehabilitated" them because the owners couldn't cope. Can't accuse the book of anti-Cesar bias -
> he presumably had a hand in writing it


i read Cesar's Way, i have not read about the first series - what is the title, please?


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

This I think:
Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan: The Ultimate Episode Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Jim Milio, Melissa Jo Peltier: Books

Went through a lot of the early episodes explained the backstory, what he said was wrong with the dog, what he did and what happened afterwards. So many said rehomed because owner couldn't cope or owner learned to live with it


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

thanks for the link, nicky! :thumbsup: will have to see that - i have to get to Borders to spend my accrued rewards. 
[i won't be buying this one, tho.  ]


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I was waiting for a friend in a bookshop had a spare hour or so to kill and decided to see if any of it made sense. Very little of it did although some of it obviously was right like your dog is bored out of it's mind and hyper because oh yeah you never walk it


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> Thanks for your opinion, CM just seemed lost and like he was making it up as he went along. Thats awful about the dog being put to sleep


What logically follows is: If there are experts in the canine world that have credentials, that care about dogs, that do have the expertise and science, not just bosh as Millan does, why was this dog put to sleep?
The conclusion is that Millan couldn't help him...Apparently nobody could so the assertions that Millan is a fraud are meaningless...

I also say: That's awful about the dog being put to sleep!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> You are just confirming what I've stated:
> 
> It is usually the ones who don't want Millan near their dogs and take them to experts, the ones who use the non-outdated methods who usually put to sleep dogs which they can't help and DESERVE TO LIVE!
> 
> Thanks for confirming my beliefs!


What are you on about now? You have just quoted someone who is saying they would NOT have their dog pts if the problem could not be cured, then tell us that the dog would definitely be pts. And you think that is confirmation? Perhaps you should learn to read


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> Strange how people never mention the good Cesar does.But i guess shouting from the roof tops,oh CM kicks dogs or strangles them gets more replies.I'll sit and wait for the 1st person to mention how white his teeth are AGAIN


In this case it is more than self evident that the people who do have credentials couldn't do anything for the dog either, or is it that they enjoy executing dogs?
Cesar does lots of good things but that is not the purpose of this thread, I suppose.


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> What are you on about now? You have just quoted someone who is saying they would NOT have their dog pts if the problem could not be cured, then tell us that the dog would definitely be pts. And you think that is confirmation? Perhaps you should learn to read.


Thanks, perhaps you can recommend a good school so I can learn not how to read but how to interpret something that is self-evident.

Who put the dog to sleep? Wasn't out there an expert who could help this dog and this is my beef about the people who just bash Millan but on the other side of the fence don't have adequate answers either to help the dogs brutalized by Millan...After all what matters is dogs, not Millan nor experts, not anybody's reputation.
Or is it that anybody can execute their dogs at will? Gee, I'd be angry with the owners not Millan since there are so many good experts out there who will use the correct, the academically proven methods, etc, etc etc.

Is this self evident or not?


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

BigBearsRule said:


> I take my hat off to him and his pearly white teeth, for his stamina. I would not like to try and drag a Saint up and down the stairs repeatedly.
> There is no mention here that theSaint should not be going up or down the stairs. Its a giant breed and stairs can cause untold damage to joints in later life. As an owner of 3 giant breed, I thought that rule was one of the first you are told.
> Maybe CM needs to read Dog Ownership for DUMMIES


I'm no dog expert but Saint Bernards are supposed to be rescue dogs and I don't think they will always find smooth and level ground in which to wlak always.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> Apparently your phobias are not the crippling type of phobias. Tell that to someone who is afraid of open spaces. Of course, we all do have our manageable phobias, but that's not anything that even needs `professional help.
> 
> "CM should have told the owners not to be so bloody selfish, they would damage his joints."
> 
> ...


Giant puppies should NOT be climbing stairs at all. That is why sensible owners put stairgates at the bottom to stop the dog from trying to get up there. Yes, it most certainly will damage his joints, no question, though why you should think that funny with your LOL symbol I cannot imagine.

Yes he did yank the dog upstairs, a dog who did not overcome his fears because he wasn't particularly frightened of them in the first place.

I did not mention animal abuse.

No, my phobias are not crippling. I am terrified of birds for no logical reason so my answer is simple: I stay away from them. If I did have a crippling phobia, like agoraphobia, I would probably consult a psychiatrist who would probably advise that I venture outside and try to overcome my fear. I want to overcome my fear, or I wouldn't have consulted a psychiatrist, so yes I will venture outside and I will assure myself of the truth of the situation; that there is nothing to fear.

A dog is afraid of something, no matter whether it affects his life or not, he does not know it is an irrational fear, he cannot think like that. All he knows is that he is scared and forcing him (against his will, as he is quite happy avoiding what he is afraid of) to face what terrifies him is not going to improve it.

As to the St Bernard, I wonder if he went up those stairs willingly after Caesar's "cure", or whether he avoided them even more. The answer is obvious to me and anyone who understands dogs.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> I'm no dog expert but Saint Bernards are supposed to be rescue dogs and I don't think they will always find smooth and level ground in which to wlak always.


Obviously, you are no dog expert. Saints are rescue dogs, all giant mountain dogs are, but the working ones are FULL GROWN. Nobody is saying a giant breed should not climb stairs at all, but they should certainly not do it whilst they are growing. This Saint was 11months old and will continue to grow until it is about 18 months. This last growth spurt is the most delicate of all.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't get the point about Cesars way or death still....

IF it were a simple case that CM and all the trainers using similar methods / theories were totally anti-pts, but that all other trainers (humane, dominance free, etc) automatically pts then perhap[s you would have a good point. 

But this is not the case. OK, CM himself is very much against destroying dogs for behaviour problems. Good luck to him for that. Many trainers or self-proclaimed "whisperers" that use the same theories and methods however DO still suggest euthanasia in some cases.
At the same time, there are many trainers that use different theories and methods, but that do not pts willy nilly.

Do you even know who made the decision about the dog on the rescue programme you saw? Do you know if that individual was one of the pro-dominance, yank and stomp (aka CM style trainers) or a Positive reinforcement, no dominance style trainer? Or something else entirely?

To me, it sounds like you are trying to claim CMs theories are correct, and his methods not only acceptable but the on'y ones that work - because all others trainers / behaviourists just kill dogs!? Again, this just makes no sense. 

As for people copying CMs techniques without understanding what he is saying - I have two problems with this:

1) CM is selling a show that seems to be on air all day every day, plus all his books etc. all telling people that he knows best, and that this is how to treat your dog. Of course people are going to act on this. And this is dangerous - for both owners and their dogs.

2) It doesn't really matter if people understand what he is saying, ie the theories behind his methods - because they themselves are inaccurate. The dominance theory as preached by CM has been disproved time and time again, not just recently but for decades!! A huge amount of the things he claims are totally false - they simply have no basis in fact whatsoever. Some of it is to the point of ludicrous; e.g a dog beig dominant over light, or "its shaking because its learning". 

Finally, I want to comment on the issue of his "credentials".

I am a strong believer in education as well as experience. Of course there are many people working with dogs as trainers, behaviourists etc with no formal qualifications; and many do so with fantastic success.

However, when it comes to teaching people about dog behaviour, body language, etc. education IS vital. A thorough understanding of animal behaviour is difficult, almost impossible, to gain without some background info - otherwise it is nothing more than assumption.

For example; CM raves on about how the pack leader always walks in front, always eats first, and dominates the others by physical force. These 3 things are well established to be false - they are not true in wolves, they are not true in dogs. In a wolf pack who eats first depends upon the circumstances at the time - small kill or large kill, whether there are pups present or a pregnant female, etc. And can you imagine how effective a wolf pack would be at taking down a buffalo if they always had to walk in a linear order? He may as well say that dog behaviour is controlled by the fairies - as there is about the same amount of evidence to back that up!

The behaviourists and trainers I most respect, and most trust, are those that have BOTH extensive experience with dogs (inc training and behaviour modification) AND a good level of education about canine behaviour, welfare, etc.

CM has NO formal qualifications, so willingly preaches theories that have long sine been debunked. This allows him to make claims based only on his biased interpretation of behaviour, rather than fact. 

I would not go to a doctor or a vet that had not studied their subject, so why would I put my dogs behaviour, its welfare, and even its life in the hands of an unqualified, self proclaimed "whisperer"?:confused1:


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> Giant puppies should NOT be climbing stairs at all. That is why sensible owners put stairgates at the bottom to stop the dog from trying to get up there. Yes, it most certainly will damage his joints, no question, though why you should think that funny with your LOL symbol I cannot imagine.


Oh yes, I'm also a dog abuser! Get away from me!
Interesting though that you don't bash in the same harsh way against the owners of the dog put to sleep because Millan couldn't help him. I wonder if Millan was their only last option or there were others who could help the dog ? Are you serious?



> Yes he did yank the dog upstairs, a dog who did not overcome his fears because he wasn't particularly frightened of them in the first place.


Lots of dogs have fears and just becaus you pull them (gently so you won't misconstrue my comments), will resist. My Basset was afraid of beans and he didn't go near them It was a sily situation so I had to show him nothing happened. I used the brutal methods shown by millan and now my dog plays with beans.



> I did not mention animal abuse.


If you prefer to execute a dog, it is. The worst there is.



> No, my phobias are not crippling. I am terrified of birds for no logical reason so my answer is simple: I stay away from them. If I did have a crippling phobia, like agoraphobia, I would probably consult a psychiatrist who would probably advise that I venture outside and try to overcome my fear. I want to overcome my fear, or I wouldn't have consulted a psychiatrist, so yes I will venture outside and I will assure myself of the truth of the situation; that there is nothing to fear.


That's easy to say but phobias are triggered by the subcosncious. t may not be logical to fear for example open spaces but this is just a symptom of something deeper. The fear is just the tip of the iceberg.



> A dog is afraid of something, no matter whether it affects his life or not, he does not know it is an irrational fear, he cannot think like that. All he knows is that he is scared and forcing him (against his will, as he is quite happy avoiding what he is afraid of) to face what terrifies him is not going to improve it.


My Beagle needed drops for his red eyes, recommended by the vet. It was a must but he was absolutely non-cooperating. At one point I had to play with him and showed panic. I talked to him and finally he accepted the drops.
I had to force him at one point cause the vet tried everything and it was dangerous cause I could hurt his eyes with the tip of the eyedropper.
Later it was just routine, and as a good child  He sometimes didn't want his drops.



> As to the St Bernard, I wonder if he went up those stairs willingly after Caesar's "cure", or whether he avoided them even more. The answer is obvious to me and anyone who understands dogs.


I don't allow my Basset to climb on my bed because they also have problems with their joints and are not supposed to jump as other dogs do. I didn't know that Bernard's were not supposed to do it either because of their joints.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I have just seen this and wanted to respond:



> There you go again crying "animal abuse" just because Millan pulled him gently upstair. Did he mercilessly yank at the leash? Hell no! Is he going to destroy his joints? Obviosly you have no clue what animal abuse is.


1) If a person who knew nothing about dogs encouraged a young giant breed to climb stairs then this would not be abuse, because they do not know any better. Of course, I would argue that they should not have got a dog without doing some research first - and when it comes to giant breeds this is one of the first things you would learn. CM however is a self professed "expert" on dogs so has no excuse. He is also a celebrity, and this show was aired showing that this was all fine and dandy. If CM knew anything at all about large / giant dogs he would have simply told the owner that such a dog should not be doing stairs anyway because of the risks. That is what a responsible, caring, educated professional would have done.

2) When you see dogs being pts or having hip replacement surgery, or facing a lifetime on pain relief and restricted exercise, due to joint problems you may feel less amused by this incident. Going up and down stairs CAN cause serious damage in dogs like this. Permanent, painful, damage.

3) The show I saw did not show CM pulling the dog "gently" anywhere. CM tried a few times to physically drag this pup up the stairs, using nothing but a skinny choke chain and his own brute force and ignorance. When this failed, he ran the dog first to build up momentum. This dog was not "encouraged" in any way, and there was nothing gentle about it at all. This dog was physically dragged up the stairs by a collar that tightened around his neck causing pain and constricted air supply.

Even if this was an adult, medium sized dog for whom stairs themselves would not pose a threat - why the violent methods? Could have not have encouraged the dog with treats or a favoured toy? Used systematic desensitisation, perhaps starting with something easier like a single step, followed by a case of three steps, etc. Obviously not. Straight in with the choking and dragging.


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Obviously, you are no dog expert. Saints are rescue dogs, all giant mountain dogs are, but the working ones are FULL GROWN. Nobody is saying a giant breed should not climb stairs at all, but they should certainly not do it whilst they are growing. This Saint was 11months old and will continue to grow until it is about 18 months. This last growth spurt is the most delicate of all.


Thnaks for letting me know that you are an expert.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> Oh yes, I'm also a dog abuser! Get away from me!
> Interesting though that you don't bash in the same harsh way against the owners of the dog put to sleep because Millan couldn't help him. I wonder if Millan was their only last option or there were others who could help the dog ? Are you serious?
> 
> Again, what on earth are you talking about? I have no idea why you call yourself an animal abuser and I do not know the dog pts that you are talking about
> ...


Well, now you've learned something


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> Thnaks for letting me know that you are an expert.


You are very welcome. When it comes to dogs, nobody is an expert - they are all different, regardless of breed, but I do know a thing or two about giant breeds because I own two myself.


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> I agree, this often why things get so out of hands.
> 
> I have no quarrels with people who dislike his methods, everyone has their own choice but it's saddening to hear the real disgust people have for him when agreed they do not know him personally and yet some people want him dead :confused1:


I understand you are one of those, for wanting to knock out his teeth, You must be a very immature bloke also.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

delir said:


> I understand you are one of those, for wanting to knock out his teeth, You must be a very immature bloke also.


You have the wrong end of the stick and i'm not a bloke either.

I actually LIKE CM  you might want to re-read what I put since your gonna drag up old posts


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> You have the wrong end of the stick and i'm not a bloke either.
> 
> I actually LIKE CM  you might want to re-read what I put since your gonna drag up old posts


:lol::lol::lol::lol: Oh dear.....you man you.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> I understand you are one of those, for wanting to knock out his teeth, You must be a very immature bloke also.


Again I have to ask, what on earth are you on about? Unless I am very much mistaken SpringerHusky is a fan of Caesar Millan. I could be wrong, it has been known on rare occasions, but I don't think I am.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Again I have to ask, what on earth are you on about? Unless I am very much mistaken SpringerHusky is a fan of Caesar Millan. I could be wrong, it has been known on rare occasions, but I don't think I am.


I am a fan :lol: and i'm not a bloke either :scared:

I'm not one of those avid omg he's an amazing, you people are dumb for thinking wrong :lol: everyone has their own opinions.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol: Oh dear.....you man you.


I know they say there's no females on the internet but I was so sure I was born female :scared: :lol:


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> I am a fan :lol: and i'm not a bloke either :scared:
> 
> I'm not one of those avid omg he's an amazing, you people are dumb for thinking wrong :lol: everyone has their own opinions.


Very true.
I am not a fan nor love him, I used to like him but after watching more and more decided that I didnt agree with some of his..... techniques.

I still find his books interesting to read and for some reason I think he's pretty attractive.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> I know they say there's no females on the internet but I was so sure I was born female :scared: :lol:


Or maybe you are a bloke and dont know it.:lol:

I cant say I have ever been mistaken for a man on the internet. :arf:


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Very true.
> I am not a fan nor love him, I used to like him but after watching more and more decided that I didnt agree with some of his..... techniques.
> 
> I still find his books interesting to read and for some reason I think he's pretty attractive.


I've only read one book, the library doesn't like me right now 'cause i'm a year over due on a book and too scared to return it, I don't feel like buying his dogs.

Yes, there's allot of things I don't agree with, the same with VS. I've always enjoyed the show and like watching it, some of his methods and ideas are good but others, not so much.

Personally i'd rather watch Zak george (youtube dog trainer now has he own show on animal planet) but I still am a Ceaser fan, I don't hate anyone whoose not. I'd rathr not go bashing people because they have thier own choices :scared: god forbid we all must be sheep


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Or maybe you are a bloke and dont know it.:lol:
> 
> I cant say I have ever been mistaken for a man on the internet. :arf:


I get it a few times mostly on here :scared: maybe I should tell them I have a very girly name off this computer :lol:


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

> Do you even know who made the decision about the dog on the rescue programme you saw? Do you know if that individual was one of the pro-dominance, yank and stomp (aka CM style trainers) or a Positive reinforcement, no dominance style trainer? Or something else entirely?


Do you know? That is bothersome because anybody can just dispose of a dog and that is OK apparently. No anger about that just about Millan and his methods.



> To me, it sounds like you are trying to claim CMs theories are correct, and his methods not only acceptable but the on'y ones that work - because all others trainers / behaviourists just kill dogs!? Again, this just makes no sense.


Makes no sense? So you prefer to "destroy" to put it mildly, dogs? What side are you? I care about dogs, regardless of Millan or anybody.



> As for people copying CMs techniques without understanding what he is saying - I have two problems with this:
> 
> 1) CM is selling a show that seems to be on air all day every day, plus all his books etc. all telling people that he knows best, and that this is how to treat your dog. Of course people are going to act on this. And this is dangerous - for both owners and their dogs.


He claims that it's his way, not the only way, you are lying.



> 2) It doesn't really matter if people understand what he is saying, ie the theories behind his methods - because they themselves are inaccurate. The dominance theory as preached by CM has been disproved time and time again, not just recently but for decades!! A huge amount of the things he claims are totally false - they simply have no basis in fact whatsoever. Some of it is to the point of ludicrous; e.g a dog beig dominant over light, or "its shaking because its learning".


You might have a ball with this member: jconline
In the Dog training-Leicester area

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/22525-dog-training-leicester-area.html

He will disprove your claims regarding dominance thories not being correct.



> Finally, I want to comment on the issue of his "credentials".
> 
> I am a strong believer in education as well as experience. Of course there are many people working with dogs as trainers, behaviourists etc with no formal qualifications; and many do so with fantastic success.
> 
> However, when it comes to teaching people about dog behaviour, body language, etc. education IS vital. A thorough understanding of animal behaviour is difficult, almost impossible, to gain without some background info - otherwise it is nothing more than assumption.


Nobody claims that not having an education is alway a plus but time has proven that some people may have a gift in certain areas, in music, in science that have never ever set foot on a University, much less earned a degree and today we look up to them. I'm referring to higher accomplishments not only dog training. Edison for example.
I don't compare Millan to Edison, believe me. But this shows that your claim is not totally correct.



> For example; CM raves on about how the pack leader always walks in front, always eats first, and dominates the others by physical force. These 3 things are well established to be false - they are not true in wolves, they are not true in dogs. In a wolf pack who eats first depends upon the circumstances at the time - small kill or large kill, whether there are pups present or a pregnant female, etc. And can you imagine how effective a wolf pack would be at taking down a buffalo if they always had to walk in a linear order? He may as well say that dog behaviour is controlled by the fairies - as there is about the same amount of evidence to back that up!


There are scientits who will agree with you, others will not.
Go and have a chat with jconline



> The behaviourists and trainers I most respect, and most trust, are those that have BOTH extensive experience with dogs (inc training and behaviour modification) AND a good level of education about canine behaviour, welfare, etc.


I would too.



> CM has NO formal qualifications, so willingly preaches theories that have long sine been debunked. This allows him to make claims based only on his biased interpretation of behaviour, rather than fact.


Not according to many recognised scientists. Go and have a chat with jconline



> I would not go to a doctor or a vet that had not studied their subject, so why would I put my dogs behaviour, its welfare, and even its life in the hands of an unqualified, self proclaimed "whisperer"?:confused1:


My beef with this last comment is that experts do euthanise dogs, why?
Why not try to help them all they can since they are the ones who hold academic titles and scientific knowledge, and I'm referring to behavioural problems not health problems.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Ok can we deal with the troll already? :lol:


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## delir (Feb 1, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Ok can we deal with the troll already? :lol:


I'm asking questions, sorry for interrupting. (sarcastic)


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I know each to their own, but I can't see the attraction of this man, he always seems so false, and as I've said before I wouldn't let him get anywhere he my dog.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

delir said:


> I'm asking questions, sorry for interrupting. (sarcastic)


well all your doing is answering on ceaser threads nothing else! and called me a bloke at that! :scared:


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

Seems like a bit of a man hunt on poor cesar! I don't think any of us know really if he ruined or abused as some of u say the dogs he helped alot of the owners at the end who all seem like dog lovers seem very happy I'm not moron or I don't practice his methods but I think he has rescued or helped 100's of dogs which would have been PTs or sold x


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

delir said:


> I'm asking questions, sorry for interrupting. (sarcastic)


You are not asking questions. Collette asked who decided a dog should be euthanised, you answered it with "do you know?" Is that the sort of question you are referring to? She never did get a sensible answer.

So you have found someone on another thread who agrees with you? Well done, but I do not see how this person is going to prove dominance theory when it is not provable. It has been disproved, many times, by many experts. All this person can do, like everyone else, is give her opinion.

So, after all the gibberish we are left with your opinion that anyone of us who does not agree with you, would have our dog euthanised. I have no idea how you came up with this garbage, but it is all you keep repeating, with no backing whatsoever.

Indeed you are a troll, and a troublemaker. You are trying to get every thread closed that does not think Caesar Millan is brilliant. You sound like a toddler throwing things out of your pram because someone is telling you no, you are wrong.

Grow up.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

delir said:


> You might have a ball with this member: jconline
> In the Dog training-Leicester area
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/22525-dog-training-leicester-area.html
> He will disprove your claims regarding dominance thories not being correct.
> ...


Spam - _jcOnLine_ is not a scientit - nor a 'recognized scientist'.


delir said:


> My beef with this last comment is that experts do euthanise dogs, why?
> Why not try to help [dogs] all they can, since [the experts] ...hold academic titles and scientific knowledge,
> and I'm referring to behavioural problems not health problems.


yes - dogs are euthanized by credentialed behaviorists, rarely; but this is *after* they evaluate 
the dog and find there is a medical reason - tumor, metabolic abnormality, etc - which is untreatable, 
or *after* they have attempted B-Mod with owner and dog, and it is apparent that either 
this dog is irreparable, the owner lacks the ability to keep the dog or others safe, or it is too dangerous to continue 
the B-Mod. *they don't just announce, "kill the dog", while on the first phone call with the new-client.* :thumbdown:

if that's what U think or believe, U are very unfamiliar with behaviorists or trainers skilled in B-mod.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

1) I never said that I don't feel anger about dogs being killed for behaviour problems. I certainly do. But as this is a thread particularly about Cesar Milan, I think I am entitled to say how I feel about him and his methods. And whilst I do not want dogs pts for behaviour issues, I still don't think it is ok to yank, choke, hang, prod, kick, drag, shock, or otherwise carm fear, pain and distress - to "dominate" a dog in order to "cure" its problems.

2) From what I have seen (and this is something I have studied in some depth) the evidence against CM style dominance theories far outweighs any evidence for it.
Funny isn't it - how the animal behaviour taught up to and including Masters Degree level acknowedges this.

3) You still haven't told me - how exactly do you know the person who recommended the dogs death in that programme was one of the educated, qualified professionals? I'm guessing you don't, They could just as easily been one of the dominance brigade.


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## kocker (Mar 4, 2011)

> leashedForLife
> Spam - jcOnLine is not a scientit - nor a 'recognized scientist'.


Since when do you need to be "recognized" to generate useful ideas in this world?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

kocker said:


> Since when do you need to be "recognized" to generate useful ideas in this world?


Do read the posts properly. Nobody said that you had to be a recognised scientist.


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