# Help with a dominant dog



## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi, I am new here and wanted to seek any ideas or advice to help me with my dog. It's a very long story so I do apolsgise but I would be grateful if anyone can offer me any advice.

So 6 years ago me and my mom got a rottweiler x border collie puppy (Amy). This was our first dog and we had read how you should have the puppy between 6-8 weeks old. So we went to visit our puppy at 5 weeks just to see how she was and when we got there we found that the puppies were in an awful state as the woman had 11 of them and just couldn't cope with them all. She asked us to take our puppy that day and it was a very difficult situation because obviously 5 weeks was too young, but they were in a bad way. So the heart strings pulled and we took her home at 5 weeks, obviously I know what a mistake this was now but didn't at the time.

We wanted to do everything the right way and so took her puppy classes as soon as she was old enough. We took her to a kennel club approved class and as we went through the weeks we could not get her to heal. The people who ran the class even took her off my mom and even they couldn't get her to heal. Anyway, test day comes and she does everything except for walking to heal, but they passed her anyway, which i believe they should not have done. 

To continue on the right path we decided to do the bronze level training class. It was here that our dog, only about 5/6 months old started to attack other dogs. She even did it in the classes but nobody ever said a word about it. Test day came and of course she failed her bronze, she didn't do anything. Obviously at the time, being novice dog owners myself and my mom had no idea why she was attacking other dogs.

We didn't try doing the bronze again but generally Amy wasn't a badly trained dog and so we just carried on with life. In the midst of all this (please don't ask me why, we know how stupid it was now) but we got a rottweiler puppy, bu tthis time at 8 weeks old. Unfortunately our rottweiler puppy (Jade) had food poisioning at only 8 weeks old due to the breeder feeding her the raw food diet. She became very ill and we couldn't take her to puppy classes but we did what we could with her at home from what we had learnt from taking Amy to puppy classes.

After Jade got over the food poisioning, she then had her cruciate ligiments in both her back legs snap (at different times, but within a short space of each other) and so she went through major surgery and has had arthuritis since the age of 2. It was at the age of 2 years old that Jade finally recovered from all her illnesses and during all this time it meant we couldn't train her properly and we were struggled with two large dogs.

During all this illness with Jade, Amy became worse and started attacking every dog in sight (although she never actually hurt them). We knew this was becoming a big problem and so decided on getting a dog behavourist in. Amy is very border collie like in her nature generally and so we called in a behavourist who had border collie's herself and had a diploma in canine behaviour. 

The lady came out to see us and diagnosed Amy as being fear agressive. She said that because Amy had missed crucial socialisation as a puppy because we had her at 5 weeks she didn't understand how to behave properly around dogs and so attacked them to keep them away. Amy had also been attacked numerous times by other dogs when she was a puppy and the behaviourist felt this had all had an effect on her. She prescribed a pet detterent spay that just psrays out air and stops the dog from attacking because they don't like the noise of it. 

So we did everything we were told and for the first 2 weeks it worked. Then she started to attack dogs again. This was all having an effect on Jade too and she started to copy Amy. At this point we were at our wits end but luckily a friend told us of a behaviourist she knows who is very good and works with rehabilitating dogs at the local kennels so that they can be rehomed. Straight away we phoned this lady and she came to visit us.

As soon as she walked in, she said Amy's dominant. She said how Amy was staring at her and challenging her, which she was. Both me and my mom had watched programmes such as The Dog Whisperer and It's Me or The Dog and knew a bit about dominance but it never occured to us that Amy was dominant because she never ever growled at us or bit us. The behaviourist said how because she is such as friendly nice dog (which she is, she loves people and has never bitten a person) she didn't need to use agression to get what she wanted. Amy just gave the sad puppy dog look and we would give in. The behaviourist gave us a lot to work on such as making sure we walk through the door first and pretend to eat out her dog bowl first etc... we did everything for two weeks and the behaviourist came back to visit us again.

In the two weeks there had been some improvement. For the first time ever, Amy walked to heal. The technique was to walk out the door, if she pulled stand still, continue to do this but if she pulled 3 times then bring her back home and wait 20 mins before trying again. Within days Amy was walking to heal. The main technique to help with the dog attacks was to use the leave it command. The behaviourist had said how because for 3 years Amy had been allowed to do what she wanted it could take a while before she accepts us as pack leaders. So for the next year or so we continued to work on all the techniques and the behaviourist came to see us numerous times.

In the summer of 2009 Amy had come on so well that we were able to take her out to dog shows (where she won many rosettes), agility classes and obedience classes where she never attacked a dog once. From May that year through til December she was the model dog. We had even warned the obedience school that she had issues, but they didn't believe me because she was so well behaved.

Then it happened. In Decemeber 2009, I did everything I was supposed to and Amy attacked a dog. This also made Jade go for the dog too and damage was caused. Obviously the owner was not happy and he works closely with a behaviourist, long story short we arranged to go and see yet another dog behaviourist.

This behaviourist said Amy was dominant and that we were 90% there with her, but just not quite. Obviously after 2 years of trying to become the pack leader it was very deflating to hear we still weren't in charge. This behaviourist technque was to hit the dog with the end of the lead when she went to attack. Also to tug the lead hard when she walked with her tail up high. I didn't agree with the hitting but thought that we would try to tug her (not as hard as the lady did) when her tail was up. After trying this for months I just don't think Amy understood what we wanted from her because she never put her tail down and started to look more frightened. We felt that this just wasn't working and resorted back to the second behaviourist techniques which had seemed to work the best.

Unfortunately, Amy attacked more dogs and caused more damage and we even had a visit from the police. We had no other choice but to muzzle both of our dogs at this point.

So for a year they were muzzled and we continued to try and be the pack leader. I then two months ago moved out of my moms into my own place. I took Amy with me as she was my dog primarily and my mom kept Jade. I have moved in with my partner who undertsands Amy completely and does the same techniques as myself. I had hoped that with the move she may improve because both me and my partner are a bit toughter and more assertive than my mom was.

Since moving it seems that Amy respects my partner but not me. 3 years down the line, I am still not the pack leader and still have to muzzle her when I take her out. 99% of the time, she will not go for a dog, but once in a while she will go for one and I can't take the risk of her hurting another dog because if she does she could be put down. Overall, she is a lovely dog who respects me in the house but as soon as I take her out, I seem to lose some control. She still walks to heal, slightly behind me even. She sits when she's told and does all the right things but if there is one dog she decides she wants to bully then I have no control.

It's been 3 years, and I really don't know what to do anymore. Has anyone got any advice on how I can get her to completely stop attacking dogs so that she doesn't have to wear a muzzle and I can take her to dog shows again.

Thanks for reading, sorry for the long story.


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

No really advice - but didn't want to read and run. I think its going to be difficult for anyone on this forum to offer real advice without seeing your dog in person.

You clearly love your dog and have worked hard to help her, and unfortunately it seems you've received some real duff advice from some so called experts.

Can I recommend a book for you to read which provides some valuable advice on leadership and the relationship with your dog - it called "Bones would rain from the sky" and its available from Amazon (Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs: Amazon.co.uk: Suzanne Clothier: Books)

Remember you are the entire world for her and even if she never is able to be completely trustworthy around other dogs she will always be your faithful companion.

Good luck for the future.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. 

I did guess that I may not get any answers, but I just don't know what to do anymore. We had bad advice and just got off on the wrong foot from the beginning and I do feel like it's not going to get any better to what it is now. 

The second behaviourist we had has been the best and has remained a friend of ours but even she didn't know what else to suggest to us. She even said she would have our dog of us if she hadn't got so many already. I would never rehome her or put her in kennels because I know it would only make her worse and I love her to bits. It's just quite depressing when you have put so much effort and work in to and she still attacks dogs. People think we haven't trained her or anything but they couldn't be more wrong.

I will be sure to check out the book, thanks.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

I have few questions:
Do you believe that if you become a pack leader, it stops a dog aggression?
And what for you means: a pack leader?


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

I think it depends on what is wrong with the dog. I think if you have a dog that is frightened then being a pack leader may not sort that problem out, but in my case I'm dealing with an extrememly dominant dog and every day is a battle with her. The second behaviourist had said she hadn't come across a dog as dominant and intelligent as ours. She has pulled some tricks in the past to get what she wants believe me.

A pack leader from what I've learnt is the person in charge. I don't believe you have to beat the dog to get that, I just believe in firm, consistent, calm and assertive handling with lots of praise and positive reinforcements when the dog has done something correct. I don't beat her if she has done something wrong, I was told that dogs live in the present and there's no point ignoring your dog ten hours later as it won't know what you're ignoring it for. If she does do something wrong, I've been taught that what's done is done, there's no point yelling at her after and the best thing to do is prevent the incident from happening in the first place.

At the end of the day though, I can only go by what I've learnt from my expriences of having this dog.


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm sure more people will be along to provide more detailed advice, but I'll just say a few points. Firstly, I think you need to stop blaming yourself for not being a hard enough 'pack leader'.

If you read around on this forum, you'll notice not many people here subscribe to the 'Old School' approach to dog training, which tells you that your dog's behavioural issues are arising because it is attempting to be the pack leader. This is a really unhelpful and backward-thinking way to analyse your dog's behaviour. Before I got my puppy, I didn't realised there was a massive rift in the dog-training world, or that there was a way to teach/rehabilitated a dog without all the dominance garbage - you can use positive reinforcement to get a desired behaviour, and the dog will learn to enjoy performing the behaviour because of the positive association, rather than out of fear that if it doesn't, it will be punished.

From what you've written, it sounds like you've been given a lot of old school advice which by following, may have actually made your dog's reactivity to other dogs worse. The spray bottle in particular is something I can't see helping your dog. When your dog sees another dog, what you would like is for your dog to associate it with something good, so that its response to the dog is calm - you don't want your dog associating the sight of another dog with something unpleasant or frightening, like a blast of air in the face!

So on the one hand, you can punish your dog for doing something undesirable (going after another dog), OR you can teach your dog that only good things happen other dogs are around.

As others will probably say, you're not likely to get all the help you need from this forum alone, but I would definitely recommend searching for a good behaviourist who implements positive methods for dog rehabilitation - this means this kind of thing: [link], *NOT* this kind of thing [link]

I'd also suggest you get hold of some books on how best to help a dog-reactive dog, using positive methods - like Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

The problem is that we did all of this positive reinforement training too. When she sees a dog I give her the command to leave it and most of the time because she does I give her a treat. We've been to numerous classes where it's all about treats but none of this has improved her behaviour either. She get's lots of praise, treats and toys and I don't punish her when she's done something wrong. If she didn't leave the dog, I don't hit her or punish her in anyway, she just doesn't get the treat, because she hasn't done what I asked. I completely believe in rewarded the dog when it's done something right and not punishing it.

So please don't think that I hit my dog or punish her because I don't. I also cannot afford to pay for any more behaviourists at the moment, I have easily spent £500 on behaviourists already and just can't afford another at the moment.

I know about the whole old school pack leader debate and everything else too. But at the end of the day, I can only go from my personal experiences. I've dedicated everything to trying to solve the problem, but no one seems to be able to help me, whether they believe in being a pack leader or not. I've tried both ways and am at my wits end with what to do.

Oh and we've tried clicker training too, everything I can think of we've done. and why is it that she doesn't attack dogs when my partner walks her? but she does with me? surely that's a dominance issue? He treats her exactly the same way, and heonly met my dog when she was 3 years old.


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

It is very frustrating and anyone would find it difficult to deal with having tried so many options. I'm sorry I can't offer more help, but would definitely recommend the Parsons book as something to look into. 

And did you look at the Podee Aggression video? Have you tried doing what Dr Sophia Yin is doing with that dog? She is continually capturing his attention and not allowing him the opportunity to fail. I don't think it's a matter of simply giving the dog treats and not punishing it when it does get aggressive - it's about managing the dog's focus and consequently its reaction to other dogs.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

We have taught her the watch it command and always try to get her focused on us instead of the dog but it is near impossible, it doesn't matter whether you try waving her favourite treat infront of her or squeaking her favourite toy or whatever it is, if she decides she wants to attack a dog then it doesn't seem to matter what you do. We get her to sit just like the video if we are presented with a dog up close. She is very attentive and watches me and I give her treats when she does. Sometimes she keeps looking towards the dog and I correct her but when the dog walks past if she decides she wants to attack it, she would just dodge round you quick as a flash and still attack the dog, so that method doesn't seem to work for me.

Treats, paise or toys don't seem to make any difference to her. When she wants to attack that's it. As I say, what else do i do? Feel like I've tried every method possible, and I'm not even 100% sure why she is doing what she is doing because I've been told so many different reasons.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Yours is a very long post, but I have tried to pick out the most important factors.
Amy Rottie/collie cross at 5 weeks out would have missed out on a good portion of the canine socialisation period which is around 3 to 7 wks approx.
Pups bite bark chse and play games, learning how to interact, with mum to teach discipline when the bite each other two hard or go too over the top.
Missing that she has missed out on a good porrtion of this. Pups also have a fear impact period around 8 to 11 weeks they have a preprogrammed fearfullness that stops them getting into situations they cannon deal with, any bad experiences during this period can become fixed in the dogs mind.

You said that at puppy class the only problem seemed to be walking to heel, and that the trainers took her off your mum and they couldnt get her to walk to heel either. You dont mention, what methods they used. Did happen to be the lead jerking and rough handling by any chance?

You say that at 5/6mths she started attacking dogs and was going to bronze class and this wasnt picked up on. Did they use any rough handling methods at this bronze class? Her attacking dogs would have co-incided with Fear of the Unknown period 6 to 14mths approx. Where even dogs that were confident before can start to react again to sights sounds and situation again with fear. Any scolding or rough handling will heighten the fear, any petting and soothing will reward it and can make it worse. Depending on how this stage was dealt with it could have caused further problems. In the midst of this as you said you also introduced a 8 weeks pup, who owing to her food poisoning and cruciate damage and ops would have missed out on a lot of socialisation and habituation when going through her own fear and other developemental stages.

I agree with your first behaviourist I think Amys problem was lack of socialisation canine wise and therefore manifested in fear agression. Dogs will bounce of each other emotional wise, so part of Jades problems may have been caused by Amy, but she would have had issues of her own too because of what she missed out on. Why your behaviorist 1 suggested a detterent spray on a dog she had diagnosed with fear aggression and a breed that is half collie known to be sensitive to stimulus though god only knows. You do not use this method on a fear aggresive dog. It may have worked for awhile,
but usually in the end just exacerbates fear problems and makes them worse.

Behaviourist 2 seems to have made her assumption that Amy was Dominant on the fact that she staring at her challengingly when she entered. She is part collie they "eye" she may have been fixing her gaze on her because of fear and uncertainty. Wouldnt you if someone then went on to tug you about hard on a lead and hit you with it when you barked at other dogs. That would just teach her, that dogs mean, you are rough handled and hit, when you are barking at them, trying to get them to go away. Dogs have a limited response to things that frighten them. Run away Flight (On a lead they cant)
Avoidence showing appeasement with body language (Again on a lead they are hampered and havent a lot of space) Or lastly FIght, bark,growl look scary, hoping the dog will go away, or if that doesnt work, then attack and hope they get the message. If Jade joined in too it could be part back up 2 Amy (They are a pack) or Jade herself had missed out on a lot too, coomunication wise because of her own illnesses.

You say Amy is fine in the house, but outside 99% of the time she is ok and will not go for other dogs just occasionally and she walks to heel. Its possible that certain dogs frighten her or makes her feel threatned she therefore then reverts to her previous behaviour. If you are unconfident and dont remain calm then that will transfer to her. The only Pack leadership you need to worry about, Is firm but fair handling, on going reward based training, and building the dogs trust in you by being consistent, calm and in control.


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

Whereabouts are you?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> We have taught her the watch it command and always try to get her focused on us instead of the dog but it is near impossible, it doesn't matter whether you try waving her favourite treat infront of her or squeaking her favourite toy or whatever it is, if she decides she wants to attack a dog then it doesn't seem to matter what you do. We get her to sit just like the video if we are presented with a dog up close. She is very attentive and watches me and I give her treats when she does. Sometimes she keeps looking towards the dog and I correct her but when the dog walks past if she decides she wants to attack it, she would just dodge round you quick as a flash and still attack the dog, so that method doesn't seem to work for me.
> 
> Treats, paise or toys don't seem to make any difference to her. When she wants to attack that's it. As I say, what else do i do? Feel like I've tried every method possible, and I'm not even 100% sure why she is doing what she is doing because I've been told so many different reasons.


Quite honestly, I am horrified. Members of this forum will usually tell you to call in a behaviourist if you have a problem, but you seem to have already had three of them who do not know what they are doing. The first one seems to have been the best, until she came up with the pet corrector idea. If the dog was afraid of the other dogs, how is a blast of air going to make her any less afraid? What has happened is that she sees another dog, something bad happens, she sees the other dog as the cause of that bad thing, so she hates them even more.

The one who told you to hit her with her lead needs stringing up. You should never, ever hit your dog at all, but what will happen when she sees her lead? She will run and hide. Again, dog appears bad things happen.

You will never, ever be your dog's pack leader. Why? Because you are not a dog. The idea of going through doors first makes no sense, because dogs in the wild do not go through any doors. The idea of eating first also makes no sense, because in the wild, if food is scarce, it is the babies who eat first not the pack leader, even supposing there is such a thing. Dogs do not want to dominate people and if she has had all these things done to her by strange people, I would have thought it was a wary stare.

I really feel for you and your dogs. Of course the puppy should have stayed with her littermates until at least 8 weeks old, in order to learn dog body language and bite inhibition and all sorts of things they learn from each other. All too late now.

You say you have watched Victoria Stillwell? Have you noticed how, when dealing with a dog aggressive dog, she will sit it down and distract it with treats before the dog notices there is another dog there. She will hold the treats in her hand, so that the dog licks at them, then give the treat when the danger has passed. Sometimes she will turn the dog away, or body block him so that he does not see the other dog at all until it is on its way passed. Soon the dog looks for these treats when another dog appears, and it is possible to let the dog see and still keep his concentration on the treats. It is all to do with timing and getting her attention before she reaches the stage of wanting to aggress.

I would not say that you will ever be able to allow her free access to other dogs, but at least you can keep her calm enough to observe them. It is best to start off from a great distance, and as she feels more comfortable very gradually move a little closer.

I hope no one suggests you call in a behaviourist; you have been there, done that, got bad advice and got absolutely nowhere.

Good luck to you; you are going to need all the patience you can muster with this poor doggie. I am very impressed that you have persevered this far - you obviously love your dog.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Sled_Dog_Hotel - the classes i took her to did not in anyway use harsh treatment infact they were the opposite. Handful of treats were given when they did something correct. Since leaving home, Jade has stopped attacking other dogs because Amy isn't there. Behaviourist 2 never ever used harsh treatment, she never hit or tugged Amy (that was the third behaviourist). Behaviourist 2 believes in firm but fair handling with lots of positive reinforcement with the dog. I am calm when I see I dog because I know I have to be.

London_Dogwalker - I am in Staffordshire

newfiesmum - "You say you have watched Victoria Stillwell? Have you noticed how, when dealing with a dog aggressive dog, she will sit it down and distract it with treats before the dog notices there is another dog there. She will hold the treats in her hand, so that the dog licks at them, then give the treat when the danger has passed. Sometimes she will turn the dog away, or body block him so that he does not see the other dog at all until it is on its way passed. Soon the dog looks for these treats when another dog appears, and it is possible to let the dog see and still keep his concentration on the treats. It is all to do with timing and getting her attention before she reaches the stage of wanting to aggress."

We have tried this numerous times, if she wants to attack, she'll attack. Doesn't matter if you have fresh chicken in your hand or block her view she'll find a way around you. I feel like I've been battling for 6 years and I know most people would have given the dog up by now but I won't give up, i'll keep trying, but I don't think I'll ever find a solution.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> Sled_Dog_Hotel - the classes i took her to did not in anyway use harsh treatment infact they were the opposite. Handful of treats were given when they did something correct. Since leaving home, Jade has stopped attacking other dogs because Amy isn't there. Behaviourist 2 never ever used harsh treatment, she never hit or tugged Amy (that was the third behaviourist). Behaviourist 2 believes in firm but fair handling with lots of positive reinforcement with the dog. I am calm when I see I dog because I know I have to be.
> 
> London_Dogwalker - I am in Staffordshire
> 
> ...


But she can't attack if the dog is too far away, can she? And this is what I am suggesting now, that you do not take her close to other dogs, but far enough away so that you can distract her before she see it. I know you feel that you are fighting a losing battle and I can imagine how frustrated you are, but I do not think there is anything else to be tried but letting her see them from a distance. It is a pity, but your dog can live a good and happy life without ever having to be close to what scares her most - other dogs. It might sound a stupid question, but what is she like if she sees dogs on tv? Is she one of those dogs who takes no notice, or does she show an interest and if so what sort? For instance, one of my dogs wants to go play with them so nearly knocks the tv over. The other doesn't notice. I was think that crufts is on this week and if she also gets edgy about dogs on tv, it could be a good time to start teaching her that dog = treat, without endangering anybody except your telly. Just an idea.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

We can't avoid dogs though, sometimes a dog comes around the corner and we live in a flat which means dogs can meet in the hallways too. She doesn't bother when dogs are on the tv. She knows dog means treat too because if she doesn't react badly when one walks past (whether across the road from us or close up) she gets a treat, but it doesn't seem to matter to her. We've been doing this method for years but it hasn't made her think if I sit and watch my owner I get a treat, she knows that but it doesn't stop her attacking a dog if she wants to.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Here's an example. My partner has just took Amy out for her walk and while walking her a Shar-pei came bolting out someones front door and running over to Amy. The shar-pei was a young female, abt 6-12 months old. Amy just stood there not reacting at all, they both sniffed each others bums, Amy wagged her tail, the shar-pei wanted to play with Amy but Amy didn't play back but neither did she attack it.

If this had happened to me, Amy would have been more likely to attack the dog, but not necessarily. It would have been a gamble as to whether she would have reacted the same way with me or not.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> Here's an example. My partner has just took Amy out for her walk and while walking her a Shar-pei came bolting out someones front door and running over to Amy. The shar-pei was a young female, abt 6-12 months old. Amy just stood there not reacting at all, they both sniffed each others bums, Amy wagged her tail, the shar-pei wanted to play with Amy but Amy didn't play back but neither did she attack it.
> 
> If this had happened to me, Amy would have been more likely to attack the dog, but not necessarily. It would have been a gamble as to whether she would have reacted the same way with me or not.


Can you honestly say that you are not relaying feelings of anxiety to your dog when this sort of thing happens. You are expecting her to attack; it is very difficult to suppress that expectation so that the dog doesn't pick up on it.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't think she is going to attack. I was told by one of the behaviourists not to think that way otherwise it will translate down the line to her and she will. So I always believe that she won't attack and stay calm because I know that I have to do this.


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## HD55 (Mar 2, 2011)

Hi

I do not pretend to know very much about dog aggression but from a quick read of these posts I would ask whether your dog is actually trying to protect you from the perceived threat that is another dog? If this is the case every time it does it is reinforcing its own behaviour?

Does she attack other dogs when both you and your partner are walking her? 

I would set up a few situations with some other friendly dog walkers. Walk the dog with your partner and as you come towards an oncoming dog hand your dog to your partner (on the lead) and ask your partner to stand still. Meanwhile you walk towards the other dog, petting it or making a fuss of it when you reach it. If your dog shows any sign of protective behaviour, even just a change of stance, your partner can correct it and reward non protective bahaviour. Your dog will also learn, first hand, that other dogs are not a threat to you.

This is purely what I would do it it were me. I am not a dog trainer by any stretch of the imagination, just someone with a passion for my dogs.

Howard

Oh, and I meant to say that I wouldn't interpret this as any form of dominance - it is purely a dog doing what it has been bred to do - look after stock (not that I am inferring you are stock of course )


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

I find this all very sad indeed. You've tried so hard to do what's best for your dog, and really you've done everything right.

The sad thing about it all is the advice you've been given. None of it is wrong per se, and there's some very good advice in with it all. The trouble is, its all very contradictory and you've ended up with a very scared, confused dog.

One of the behaviourists (sorry lost track which one!!) got it right, she is fearful hence why she is being aggressive. You've got a mix of 2 very reactive breeds, and it wasn't best for her to leave her mum at 5 weeks (which you know) and although you tried with the socialisation she obviously didn't get enough for her. Fair enough, lot's of dogs have this problem. The problem then though is to deal with her fear, you've had advice for spray collars and yanking her, which will only serve to make her think there is something to be fearful of. The adversives become a sign of something bad happening and make her more worried. So instead of helping her deal with her fear and learn how to make the dogs go away in a non-confrontational manner she has infact been rewarded for aggressive behaviour, as she aggresses the other dogs always go away. Slowly over the years this has been proved time and again to her.

I don't feel I can advise you what to do over the net. As has already been said, everyone would advise a behaviourist, it's just so sad you've been misled by 3 of them already. I think you need professional help, but you simply cannot use adversives to make her more fearful, she needs to learn how to deal with her fear and make the other dogs go away in a non-confrontational manner. I'd recommend you use someone who is affiliated with the COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists (check out coape.org)


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi  afraid I can't help with your situation as i've never experienced it quite this bad myself but what I would say is you are one hell of a good owner and have shown that by all the hard work you've put into your dog.

My dog Flynn is reactive to other dogs but he is fine with the dogs at home and with dogs outside, if they're not too near, so nowhere near as bad as your situation. What I do know is no matter how much I try to fool myself that i'm being calm and cool and not pre empting a situation he still reacts with me. He has even reacted to his own reflection in a window, yet if one of my daughters take hold of him he can actually walk amongst other dogs with no reaction at all. So he is feeding off of my negetive energy. With Flynn I am going to take him group training again to bulid my confidence, as with him i'm pretty certain I am the cause.

I hope you can get something sorted as you and your dog really deserve it. Wish you the very best of luck.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I agree with Malmum. I too was struggling with a dog that was picking up on my tension, still does infact. I was trying really hard to stay calm, singing happy songs and looking stupid, anything to keep calm when other dogs came into view. After several sessions with behaviourists that gave some good advice, some not so good in our particular case, i was still in despair that it would ever get better. I was lucky enough to find a behaviourist quite recently that showed me a lot about body language, of both me and my dog. I thought I was calm but wasn't and the tiniest amount of tension that you don't even think is there is picked up by your dog. Things have come on in leaps and bounds since that session, so keep trying until you find the way that works for both of you. You have done wonders already and kept going when many others would have given in. It may even be the fact that you are so close to your dog and her to you that is making this a little more difficult, maybe she is so attuned to you that she feels things even more, I don't know, I am no behaviourist. But good luck to both of you, you will get there, you certainly deserve to.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks for all your advice everyone, the only thing is I don't know what advice to take. I can't afford another behaviourist for a start, I know that much. I personally don't feel that she is frightened of other dogs because her tail isn't tucked between her legs, it's very high and it touches her back which I was lead to believe certainly isnt fear, but again this is what I've been told.

She's such a perfect dog in everyway except with other dogs. Shes super friendly with people and very good around children, very obedient when it comes to basic training such as sit, down, stay etc she waits on her bed to be called to take her food, she knows not to come into the bedroom or bathroom (we live in a ground floor flat) we can leave a steak on the coffee table and go out the room and she wouldn't touch it. I just find it hard to understand what the problem really when she's so well behaved otherwise.

I don't think she's protecting me either because she's shown in the past when I took her to dog shows that I could stroke any dog and she didn't react. I don't understand either how for 7 months straight she never attacked a single dog and then all hell broke loose. We never did anything different either, it really confuses me.

It has really put me off having dogs in the future because of the amount of work and effort i've had to put into Amy. I know she probably isn't the best crossbreed to have for a first dog, but I could have picked any of the 11 puppies and may have ended up with a different dog. My partner is desperate for a border collie in the future (we couldnt have another dog while Amy is like this) but I've been really put off by it, and I know every dog is different but I just worry I'll end up with another problem dog.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Okay, I have read most of the whole thread and a couple of things stick out for me like sore thumbs.

1. Have you got your dog checked for medical issues? In six years and the effort you've put in, I am guessing you have, but to my knowledge you haven't mentioned it. This may be having an effect.

2. When Amy is with you, does she go for _every_ dog? It appears that she can be okay with some dogs (you mentioned a couple of times that the 'watch' and focus exercises worked), so I would really have a think to see if it is a particular size or personality of dog that frightens her.

These might have no bearing at all, but they just seem to me to be anomolies at the moment.

You obviously care a lot for your dog and have been through a lot. So has your dog. Amy, I'm 99.9% certain, is fearful around other dogs- despite her 'confident' body language. If you were bullied at school, the first few times you'd be scared and maybe show anxiety, plead with bullies not to hurt you etc., but as it goes on, you may begin to take matters into your own hands and lash out as soon as they go to bully you. Amy has no need, after many years of being frightened by other dogs and after many years of being taught that attacking= scary dogs move away, to show anxious and fearful body language. She's completely missing out calming and distance increasing signals that are ways in which dogs communicate, on a body language continuum, that they're becoming more and more uncomfortable. But Amy has no need for this as, in her experience, it hasn't worked. Thus, she's resorting to straight attack.

This is difficult, but you can make improvements. I think it's unlikely that she will be happy around other dogs, but I do not think it is impossible to get her calm enough to walk with a muzzle around other dogs and not attack.

From your consultations with behaviourists, keep all the positive reward training methods and ideologies and throw out the dominance, pack leader bull$%^&. It is not the reason she is acting like this; your intuitions were correct.

Do you know of a place where you can see dogs at a distance, with very little chance of meeting them close up? I know that may be a difficult question but if you do know of such a place, this is where to start behaviour modification. It will be a long road (metaphorically speaking), but from starting here and, say, for a week feeding your dog her meal from hand when other dogs pass by and slowly bringing her closer over many months, she can be helped. Of course, it's impossible to tell how much.

I'm sure I wanted to say more, but I think I'll leave it there. Hope I've reinbursted some of your motivation.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I agree with Rottiefan - perhaps taking a meal of dry food out, not feeding her beforehand (so as she's hungry) and getting her to focus on you is a great way to get her to accept dogs being in her vicinity. I know this because it has worked with Flynn in the past. On one of our walks I came to an area, by a church, were there are four different roads all leading up to the church. From one road came a woman with two dogs, my first action is usually to turn and dissapear down another road - however another dog walker came out of that, then the other two roads, all at once we were surrounded by eight dogs - my worst nightmare! I had no option but to get Flynn to sit and focus on me, giving him his most highly valued treats - dolly mixtures! He handled it brilliantly, didn't even care about the dogs -I did but he didn't. So it works I can tell you.

Emmastace is also right in the closeness you may share with your girl. In the house Flynns behaviour is impeccable and all the training I do with him indoors and in the garden is done with hand signals alone, no words come from my mouth - he knows what i'm asking of him and seems to know my thoughts. It's no wonder he knows how I feel when I see another dog like I said no matter how I try to disguise it.

Flynn and I have had a setback due to him having a hip replacement and not seeing dogs for a long time due to restricted walks and crate rest and is having his second op on 11th April, so he hasn't been training yet, no point as he'll be out of action again soon but as soon as he's recovered we'll start again. I know what you mean about it not being cheap. I agree about forgetting the pack leader stuff too, she isn't out to control if she were she wouldn't be as good in the house as she is.

I also agree for a vet check, just to be sure your girl doesn't have an underlying condition that you may not be aware of.

All you can do is try lots of different methods, as I have with Flynn and hopefully you'll find one that works - eventually.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Tail position is not enough to say about dogs body language. Some breeds have high tuck tails, some low.
If your dog is fearful, that can be fearful aggression - and you wouldn't see fear only aggression. So you should read this:

Help for Your Fearful Dog: A Step-by-Step Guide to Helping Your Dog Conquer His Fears: Amazon.co.uk: Books

But book isn't cheap. 
How bad is your dog aggression. Did she bite? How bad she bite - if she bite?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Like Andromeda ^^, I wanted to ask how bad the attacks were? I know she's went for many dogs, but really think about it- how many had to have veterinarian treatment? Was there blood- and from where if there was? 

These are very important questions as many dogs who have 'gone' or 'attacked' other dogs usually have nothing to show for it- which usually means they have great bite inhibition. Now, since your girl was taken from her mother early, I'd expect her to had had trouble with nipping and bit inhibition, but how much damage she has done to other dogs will be a good indication.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Suffice to say, I agree with many of comments in responses but will try to share personal points that may be helpful to you, ather than "me to" everything.

Now I'm afraid whilst I am saddened by your experiences with behavourists, it is not uncommon going by the experiences related by Dog walking companions, often with rescues who benefit from walking along with my dog, as he doesn't act over eager and maintains a space with dogs that aren't comfortable closer.

On the whole Dominance & Pack Leader stuff, the best explanation I have found is at AVSAB - Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behaviour Modification of Animals



Fuzzy_moo said:


> I personally don't feel that she is frightened of other dogs because her tail isn't tucked between her legs, it's very high and it touches her back which I was lead to believe certainly isnt fear


My socialised Border Collie (BC) will do similar sometimes, when he's meeting a dog that he doesn't know and is uncertain about for some reason. He's alert and aroused, tense and making himself seem bigger, generally in response to a tense interest by the other dog. It's his call if he goes close, when he feel's intimidated by say a big dog glaring with a dominant body language, he maintains a distance. This seems very healthy and sensible to me, those who have puppy impulse to rush up to every dog are more likely to have incidents.

The Pet Corrector spray, should have been used as an interruptor and then followed up with a desirable behaviour, like moving rapidly off for a game of tug as you remove her from the situation. With time you notice the signs and avoid the stress situations pro-actively.

So for instance, one rescue has been trained to come close, where there's any risk of "unpredictable" behaviour, whether he's off or on leash. His handler cannot every drop her vigilance approaching strangers, the problem is not lack of training; but the basic survival based emotions & drives, responding to perceived threats.



Fuzzy_moo said:


> We have tried this numerous times, if she wants to attack, she'll attack. Doesn't matter if you have fresh chicken in your hand or block her view she'll find a way around you. I feel like I've been battling for 6 years and I know most people would have given the dog up by now but I won't give up, i'll keep trying, but I don't think I'll ever find a solution.


Naturally, same as if you are in middle of berating your partner for his failings, you aren't slowed down by him producing a box of chocolates, they're only interesting later, once you are calmer.



Fuzzy_moo said:


> Since moving it seems that Amy respects my partner but not me. 3 years down the line, I am still not the pack leader and still have to muzzle her when I take her out. 99% of the time, she will not go for a dog, but once in a while she will go for one and I can't take the risk of her hurting another dog because if she does she could be put down. Overall, she is a lovely dog who respects me in the house but as soon as I take her out, I seem to lose some control. She still walks to heal, slightly behind me even. She sits when she's told and does all the right things but if there is one dog she decides she wants to bully then I have no control.





Fuzzy_moo said:


> If this had happened to me, Amy would have been more likely to attack the dog, but not necessarily. It would have been a gamble as to whether she would have reacted the same way with me or not.


You & Amy have more and longer history, I think the "Pack Leader" idea is holding you back, she has habits with you and is unpredictable. Amy hasn't done it yet, with your partner but that isn't a reason to beat yourself up about failings. What you've acheived already with Amy is impressive.

May be you feel overwhelmed in a threatening situation, and need to calmly carry through a positive plan to redirect Amy that you have prepared to take her away from the risk factors as soon as you see sign of her reacting badly to dog from afar.

Avoid her emotions over powering the training, and her reacting out of a fear-aggressive survival instinct (then attacking pre-emptively a perceived threat).

Carrying a walking stick, might help veer off an unwanted onrushing dog, leading them off to side; rather than risk a fight.



Fuzzy_moo said:


> My partner is desperate for a border collie in the future (we couldnt have another dog while Amy is like this) but I've been really put off by it, and I know every dog is different but I just worry I'll end up with another problem dog


No you won't, because you'll find a healthy pup from good breeder, take to puppy play opportunities early, train early and with all your experience now, and even the forum helps to mull over issues you have and avoid the problems growing into unmanageable difficult ones.

You & your partner sound like great dog owners to me, and you have learned much from experience even the bitter ones.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Attacks have been mixed. Some attacks she never actually leaves a mark on the dog but we have had some where she has bit the dog and we've had to pay the vet bills and the police have been involved. My mom has been threatened numerous times when Amy had bit a dog and had to pay for all the vet bills. The attacks therefore can be very bad but not everytime.

She deffinately has no health issues, she was checked each time before seeing each behaviourist to rule this out.

She doesn't go for one specific breed as such. She hates greyhounds the most i'd say and is more likely to attack a female than a male. All her doggy friends are males. Particularly big calm male dogs e.g. golden retrievers, gsd's, and rottweilers

When a dog goes for her, more often than not she won't actually react back. She tends to go for the dogs that don't do anything to her.

She also used to attack more dogs with my mom than with me, and she attacks more with me than my partner.

While in the house, she often sits pawing to get people's attention too and when we have guests she finds in difficult to control herself and to wait on her bed. She cries her eyes out with excitement to get to the person.

We even had a dog growl and lunge for her today, she didn't react at all. Both me and my partner were together and my partner told her to leave it and we walked on by without Amy doing a single thing. Obviously she was very well rewarded as per usual afterwards.

It's 50/50 as to whether the watch me thing works for me, I find that telling her to leave the dog and walking on by with a treat at the ready works the best so far.

My mom also bought Jade over to my new flat for the first time yesterday and both dogs were fine with each other. Very happy to see each other but I don't know if anyone is good with dog body language but Amy's tail was wagging low for the majority of it and she sniffed Jade's bum and visa versa. Twice Amy pinned her ears back slighty, raised her tail up and stood tall over Jade's head - any guesses to what that might be?

Oh and she usually attacks a dog from behind. She wait for the dog to pass mainly rather than attack the dog head on, which i was told was cowardly. So most of the injuries on other dogs have been on their back legs. She is very border collie like and in play with Jade always nipped the back of her legs and Jade learnt to copy this! So we have a rottweiler that nips at the back of dogs legs like a border collie ¬_¬ Amy actually bought Jade down to the floor by doing this though and that caused one of her cruciate ligments to snap, so after that we told Amy no when she tried to play with Jade in that way.

Can't think of any more information to tell you all, but thanks again for all your replies, they are much appreciated.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

This is really quite an interesting case actually, despite how hard it must be for you 

So she sounds like she's into herding the other dogs that she goes for- if she wanted to do real damage, I think she would be going straight for the neck and throat. Dogs have lost a lot of the their predatory instincts obviously but many still remain intact. 

Have you tried fulfilling the Border Collie part of her? Like doing some dog sports with her or even real herding? It would be interesting to find out.

A low wagging tail is generally a sign of deference and, basically, friendly and wanted no trouble from the other party. Standing over another dog is often a sign of tension, but then sometimes dogs will freeze and jump around, freeze and jump in play. So there's a number of things. The common explanation is that the dog is trying to dominante/show higher rank than the other dog but thankfully we know different now.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Well we did take her to agility and flyball but she wasn't very enthuasiastic about either as hard a we tried. Now I've moved I can't drive and so can't get to any agility or flyball classes. I've never tried herding, but I wouldn't know where to go or anything? Like I assume there isn't classes for it?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> So she sounds like she's into herding the other dogs that she goes for- if she wanted to do real damage, I think she would be going straight for the neck and throat. Dogs have lost a lot of the their predatory instincts obviously but many still remain intact.
> 
> Have you tried fulfilling the Border Collie part of her? Like doing some dog sports with her or even real herding? It would be interesting to find out


A Collie nip is often called a grip, and my BC can do it to me when I'm on cycle, or if I dash about. It feels more like a pinch and is quite gentle, but obviously that's with a dog with full bite inhibition in place. The prelude to it, tends to be dashing about in front or at side, trying to "head off" and over excitement.

I have seen one close up do lunges in frustration and nip like that, and the dog was under habituated and socialised. It would do that, as some kind of discplacement activity; very much like clips where 2 dogs are being walked on lead, 1 of them wants to go for another dog but can't, and so they nip at each other.

I'd be worried about dog sport training, as I've met several people who were advised to go, and then found the group sessions were too over whelming and set back their non confident dog. Given the history it sounds rather risky to me.  For instance one deaf dog was constantly nipped on rear by established pack of Collies, disgracefully allowed to maraud around by Club and owners.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

When I did take her, she behaved perfectly at flyball and agility. She just wasn't ethusiastic about it. She does collie nip, but she fully bites as well - she is half collie and half rottie - a very bad mix!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> I've never tried herding, but I wouldn't know where to go or anything?


Is the dog mad keen on fetch? The dogs learn herding, basically by chasing the sheep at first to move them and then learn to control them by going around, directed by trainer to lift them off fences and field corners where sheep like to gather, when a dog's about.

So when you see all those Collie owners, playing fetch endlessly, they're "fulfilling the Collie" to some degree, it's not just the running but the gathering up and organising.



Fuzzy_moo said:


> She does collie nip, but she fully bites as well - she is half collie and half rottie - a very bad mix!


Well unfortunately both breeds need good socialisation, so it's unfortunate. I notice Rotts tend to stare at times, as do Collies when they're fixated and it can really wind up some dogs, who don't like it, if the Collie's circling though it might have just seen a ball held by the other dogs owner.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

She doesn't circle like a collie, and she doesn't really have the collie stare/glare/eye either. She does like to play fetch, I wouldn't say she as obsessed as some collies get. The best way I can describe her is like a toned down collie. When she's next to/around a full border collie, it makes Amy look chilled out, but next to a Rottweiler, she's physcotic.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I have no advice from a behaviour point of view but I would say please consider muzzling Amy when walking near other dogs. Its not fair to others to have their dogs attacked when you know there is a possibility she may bite them.
Also would it be such a bad thing if she had to enjoy her walks whilst wearing a muzzle?? It sounds like for the most part she is a lovely dog that you get alot of enjoyment out of. Even if she is running the gauntlet of strange dogs for 4 hour walks a day (which would be husky style walks!!) that still leaves 20 hours when you have a nice companion.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

She is muzzled


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I have no advice from a behaviour point of view but *I would say please consider muzzling Amy when walking near other dogs*. Its not fair to others to have their dogs attacked when you know there is a possibility she may bite them.
> Also would it be such a bad thing if she had to enjoy her walks whilst wearing a muzzle?? It sounds like for the most part she is a lovely dog that you get alot of enjoyment out of. Even if she is running the gauntlet of strange dogs for 4 hour walks a day (which would be husky style walks!!) that still leaves 20 hours when you have a nice companion.


Can I just say that on the face of it muzzling a dog could seem like a good idea if they have been known to bite but sometimes that is not a good thing for the dog you are trying to help. I have considered that but the one thing the behaviourists I have seen have agreed on, in Mia's case that would increase her anxiety and make her problem worse. Yes it would mean that she had no opportunity to bite, but she wouldn't ever get better either and that isn't fair to her. Not giving the opportunity to bite by controlling the situation and not letting her close enough to other dogs unless I am sure it will be OK is the fairer way in my opinion.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Flynn is uncertain with dogs, probably fear aggressive - not sure as he never gets close enough to interact, just in case but I use a harness and a dogmatic head collar with a double ended lead so as I know he can never slip the head collar and take off. If she's on a secure collar and possibly a harness too, you know she'll never be able to get any closer to a dog than you allow. Gives me so much peace of mind walking Flynn this way.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Flynn is uncertain with dogs, probably fear aggressive - not sure as he never gets close enough to interact, just in case but I use a harness and a dogmatic head collar with a double ended lead so as I know he can never slip the head collar and take off. If she's on a secure collar and possibly a harness too, you know she'll never be able to get any closer to a dog than you allow. Gives me so much peace of mind walking Flynn this way.


She doesn't like to wear a harness, she hates been restricted in anyway, but she is never allowed to get close to the dog, but unfortunately sometimes it's an unavoidable situation.

Today we walked past several dogs. There was a lady walking 5 smooth collies (she breeds them) and she always steps to one side to let us come past anyway because there isn't much room to get past her with all five dogs! Amy didn't react to any of those. Then we walked past a spaniel, she didn't react to that. Then we came across a doberman, she stared at that with a high tail and pricked ears, we got her to sit to one side and tried to get her to watch us. For the most part she did. Finally we came across a border collie which was off lead. It kept staring at Amy, which I don't think Amy liked and she reacted in the same way staring back at it. The field was big enough for us to keep a distance though and to carry on walking by without too much trouble.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Next time when you will see a dog do what collie lady does. Step on side and ask Amy to sit and keep her focus on you by giving her food. Don't wait for people to make room for you, try to arrange it by yourself of course there still can be situation when you cannot step on side -remember you always can change direction of walk.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Andromeda said:


> Step on side and ask Amy to sit and keep her focus on you by giving her food.


That's what we did with the doberman, the only reason we didn't do it with the smooth collie lady is because she beat us to it, soon as she saw us she turned around and walked back to a side bit before we could do anything. So we thanked her and walked on.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Molly Moo - You seem to have been doing so well over the last few days while you have been posting on this thread. You are both having positive experiences and every one of those helps. From everything you have said you are doing good things so keep it up, give both of you a break and try and take some pressure off yourselves. I am really impressed with you both xxx


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry Fuzzy Moo, I had a senior moment with your name xxxxx


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks, means a lot. This is normal Amy behaviour though since behaviourist 2 came along and I could not have her do anything for half a year and then one day she might go for a dog, that's the bit I'd like to completely cure, but maybe that isn't possible to completely cure her and I'm asking too much. It just bothers me that because she might go for a dog she has to be muzzled with me and it would be nice to be able to let her off the lead to play, which is what she loves to do but she can't incase another dog comes along. I wish I lived on a big farm so I could fence off some land and let her run until her heart was content with no worries of other dogs.. that's the dream :biggrin:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> Thanks, means a lot. This is normal Amy behaviour though since behaviourist 2 came along and I could not have her do anything for half a year and then one day she might go for a dog, that's the bit I'd like to completely cure, but maybe that isn't possible to completely cure her and I'm asking too much. It just bothers me that because she might go for a dog she has to be muzzled with me and it would be nice to be able to let her off the lead to play, which is what she loves to do but she can't incase another dog comes along. I wish I lived on a big farm so I could fence off some land and let her run until her heart was content with no worries of other dogs.. that's the dream :biggrin:


Sometimes it is not possible to completely trust a behaviour in a situation like this, and it just has to be managed instead, which is what you seem to be doing very well. How is her recall? I have seen lots of dogs playing off lead with a basket muzzle on and the owners have said they could bite either people or other dogs; doesn't stop them playing.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> Thanks, means a lot. This is normal Amy behaviour though since behaviourist 2 came along and I could not have her do anything for half a year and then one day she might go for a dog, that's the bit I'd like to completely cure, but maybe that isn't possible to completely cure her and I'm asking too much. It just bothers me that because she might go for a dog she has to be muzzled with me and it would be nice to be able to let her off the lead to play, which is what she loves to do but she can't incase another dog comes along. I wish I lived on a big farm so I could fence off some land and let her run until her heart was content with no worries of other dogs.. that's the dream :biggrin:


We are in similar positions with similar dreams. All I want is to be able to exercise Mia properly and for her to enjoy being a dog. I am hoping things improve next month when we start social walking classes. They are only for dogs with this problem and the aim is that by the end of it they will be able to be let off lead. Inbetween controlled meeting and greeting we will be working on recall and calming. Each session is £12 for two hours and it is open fields so a similar environment to a walk and allows dogs to be a long way away from each other and gradually get closer over the weeks.
Maybe there is something like this in your area.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> We are in similar positions with similar dreams. All I want is to be able to exercise Mia properly and for her to enjoy being a dog. I am hoping things improve next month when we start social walking classes. They are only for dogs with this problem and the aim is that by the end of it they will be able to be let off lead. Inbetween controlled meeting and greeting we will be working on recall and calming. Each session is £12 for two hours and it is open fields so a similar environment to a walk and allows dogs to be a long way away from each other and gradually get closer over the weeks.
> Maybe there is something like this in your area.


No, but for £12 a time for basically nothing more than going on a walk with lots of dog owners, I think I will start one!


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> We are in similar positions with similar dreams. All I want is to be able to exercise Mia properly and for her to enjoy being a dog. I am hoping things improve next month when we start social walking classes. They are only for dogs with this problem and the aim is that by the end of it they will be able to be let off lead. Inbetween controlled meeting and greeting we will be working on recall and calming. Each session is £12 for two hours and it is open fields so a similar environment to a walk and allows dogs to be a long way away from each other and gradually get closer over the weeks.
> Maybe there is something like this in your area.


I wish there was! It would be great practice and it would mean meeting other people with similar problems meaning that you wouldn't get yelled at if your dog did something wrong.

In terms of letting her off lead with a muzzle, we can do this because her recall is petty good. But with a muzzle it just means she can't play with her toys or anything, people also run a mile from you and have a go at you if your dog wonders there way because it's muzzled, even though I'm doing the responsible thing (unlike a lot of dog owners I see and meet!)

Amy is deffinately managable at the moment, it would just be nice for her to just enjoy life without a muzzle and enjoy other dogs company etc...


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

I also happened to find this today:

Emma Collings | 

This behaviourist is just about local enough for her to travel to me I think and she is recommended by Victorial Stillwell. If (and that's a big IF) I could ever afford or want to have another dog behaviourist in to look at Amy, I wondered what you guys thought about this one?

I also found these two local to me:

Janice Olbrechts - Dog Trainer / Dog Listener - Market Drayton Shropshire - Improving the relationship between you and your dog(s)
Pet Psychology - Home Page

Let me know what you think of them

Thanks


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> I also happened to find this today:
> 
> Emma Collings*|*
> 
> ...


The first one, definitely. Getting Victoria Stilwell's trademark on your website is not as easy as simply paying the money, she wants references, assessments and all sorts. If she is a VS trainer, you won't hear any pack leader rubbish or dominance stuff. If you search for Victoria Stilwell Trainer, you will find a wealth of information on her website.

Don't touch the second one with a barge pole. Dog Listener/Jan Fennell = ignore the dog. No matter what the problem, ignore the dog. Another of her favourites if the dog pulls is "don't walk it then".

If you feel you still need help, get the VS one, but I think you are doing fine at the moment.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Fuzzy_moo said:


> I wish there was! It would be great practice and it would mean meeting other people with similar problems meaning that you wouldn't get yelled at if your dog did something wrong.


That is exactly the reason I am doing it. Everyone in the same boat, all there knowing the other dogs and owners need help from us as much as we need help from them and a behaviourist controlling it all and seeing exactly what is going on. I know I need some time out walking with Mia where I am not going to be judged or screamed at. Jana who is doing the classes has done more for Mia and I than anyone, most importantly giving me confidence. She has spent the last few months assessing all the dogs and only putting three in each class that she believes will be the best mix. She is also taking two people that are friends of hers with really steady dogs (one is Jana's own). I can only see if it helps.


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## Fuzzy_moo (Mar 9, 2011)

Sounds like you have an excellent trainer there, I just wish we had something similar in my area that I could get to.


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## portiaa (Dec 10, 2010)

cant really mention anything to help im afraid-but didnt want to read and run.

You seem to have got really far with amy! so well done,keep at it -it cant be easy. if you still need more help in the future and can afford it- behaviourist 'emma collings' reccomended by Victoria Stillwell looks quite good and as newfies mum said its not easy getting a victoria stillwell's trademark! 
keep at it - you certainly seem to be a great dog owner,many would have just given up. 
sending well wishes to the future. well done!


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