# advice please



## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I rehomed a 4 year old female cat on the 4th may. On the 10th of may she escaped and came home on the 17th of may. She hasn't been spayed and was previously living with an unneutered tom. She has had a litter of kittens before she came to me that were rehomed on the 25th of April. So I've gathered she is pregnant due to being extremely affectionate, eating more, staying in all the time and she is getting rounder in the belly area. How do I work out far along she is and what do I need to prepare for her kitten arrival? Thank you


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

izziestars said:


> I rehomed a 4 year old female cat on the 4th may. On the 10th of may she escaped and came home on the 17th of may. She hasn't been spayed and was previously living with an unneutered tom. She has had a litter of kittens before she came to me that were rehomed on the 25th of April. So I've gathered she is pregnant due to being extremely affectionate, eating more, staying in all the time and she is getting rounder in the belly area. How do I work out far along she is and what do I need to prepare for her kitten arrival? Thank you


A typical cat pregnancy lasts 65/66 days but up to 70 days is not uncommon. I cannot believe that your cat was mated between the 10th-17th May and is already getting rounder. At three and a half weeks the kittens have only recently implanted so cannot have become large enough to be visible. Was she calling when she escaped? If not and she is pregnant it happened before you adopted her. You need to contact the previous owner and find out when your girl was last calling. Then you could get a rough idea of when kittens could be expected. To check if she really is pregnant have a look at her teats. They usually become pinker and larger at three weeks.

In your situation I think I would ask the vet to check her. If she is not too far into a pregnancy it is possible to spay and abort at the same time especially since it will put a strain on her body to have another litter so soon after the previous one.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Sad that she hadn't been spayed before now
Assuming she mated during the seven days she was absent kittens will be due around July 17th/21st - average length of pregnancy is 65 days. You may not be too late to get her spayed now.
However if you let her have this litter you should be able to see her nipples 'pinking up' over the next few days. I would be surprised if she is starting to look rounder yet as the embryos will only be marble sized balls at this stage
Cross posted with QOTN whose advice is more detailed than mine


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I too am surprised she looks rounder - it's normally 4-5 weeks when that happens. Personally would have booked her for spaying as soon as I rehomed her - surprised that anyone is rehoming without spaying. 

I think she was already pregnant when she was rehomed to you. 

If she was mated at the end of the time she was out she would probably be pinking up any day now (not all cats do), looking rounder in a couple of weeks and due around July 21st.

If she was mated more like the 10th May she should have pinked up a day or so ago and would be due about the 14th July.

If she was pregnant when you got her, she would have pinked up a week ago or so, and would be due about the 8th July.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Thank you for your advice. She was booked in to be spayed 2 days after she went missing. Unfortunately due to personal circumstances I havnt been able to get her booked in to be spayed again. I will book her in for a vet appointment to see what they say. I don't have the heart to have her spayed while pregnant. But she will be spayed as soon as kittens have been born and the vet agrees. I have tried to contact her previous owners to no avail and have now found they have blocked me on facebook and my number. So I don't think I'm going to get any information from them now.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm so glad you don't have the heart to spay whilst already pregnant. I know it's a common piece of advice given on here, but personally I don't think there is a need for aborting potentially healthy, viable kittens. Yes, it will be a strain on her, but she's lucky to have you to care for her throughout pregnancy, and feed her plenty of good quality food. You say she has had a litter before, and her previous litter were rehomed, so she knows how to give birth and her kittens weren't deformed, so presumably the entire tom she was living with wasn't for instance her brother or similar close relation? If you feel confident you can be around to help during birth if she needs you (work from home/retired/fulltime parent etc) I would let her birth naturally, but if you think there's a chance you won't be around (work commitments) I'd get an idea from the vet of when he thinks she's due, and nearer the time try and get as accurate an idea as possible and maybe caesarean and spay at the same time. It all comes down to risk - giving birth quietly at home with someone to hold her paw is better for her, but a caesarean is better than being left alone during a difficult labour (big kitten, awkward position etc). Vets usually prefer a planned spaying a month or so after the birth to allow all the blood vessels to shrink back to normal, but caesarean and spay at same time aren't uncommon. Besides which, if you followed advice to spay whilst pregnant, the blood supply to the uterus would be well developed anyway. Have compassion on the unborn kittens and don't abort unless you have reason to believe they might be deformed. I know there's lots of unwanted kittens, but it's not something I would feel comfortable doing either. Of course either caesarean and spay, or give birth naturally and spay in a month, but don't kill the kittens that already exist inside her. I know I'm going against of the advice of a lot of other breeders, but I see abortion as the last resort in desperate cases (kittens will be deformed, mother in real danger), not a means of population control. Spaying on the other hand I'm 100% saying you should do as soon as safe to do so after the birth. Like the arguments for abortion versus birth control in people, except you don't normally spay people. Best of luck with it, and remember you can get lots of advice on here about giving birth or feeding kittens if there's anything you're not sure about.


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## smoking guns (Feb 24, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> I'm so glad you don't have the heart to spay whilst already pregnant. I know it's a common piece of advice given on here, but personally I don't think there is a need for aborting potentially healthy, viable kittens. Yes, it will be a strain on her, but she's lucky to have you to care for her throughout pregnancy, and feed her plenty of good quality food. You say she has had a litter before, and her previous litter were rehomed, so she knows how to give birth and her kittens weren't deformed, so presumably the entire tom she was living with wasn't for instance her brother or similar close relation? If you feel confident you can be around to help during birth if she needs you (work from home/retired/fulltime parent etc) I would let her birth naturally, but if you think there's a chance you won't be around (work commitments) I'd get an idea from the vet of when he thinks she's due, and nearer the time try and get as accurate an idea as possible and maybe caesarean and spay at the same time. It all comes down to risk - giving birth quietly at home with someone to hold her paw is better for her, but a caesarean is better than being left alone during a difficult labour (big kitten, awkward position etc). Vets usually prefer a planned spaying a month or so after the birth to allow all the blood vessels to shrink back to normal, but caesarean and spay at same time aren't uncommon. Besides which, if you followed advice to spay whilst pregnant, the blood supply to the uterus would be well developed anyway. Have compassion on the unborn kittens and don't abort unless you have reason to believe they might be deformed. I know there's lots of unwanted kittens, but it's not something I would feel comfortable doing either. Of course either caesarean and spay, or give birth naturally and spay in a month, but don't kill the kittens that already exist inside her. I know I'm going against of the advice of a lot of other breeders, but I see abortion as the last resort in desperate cases (kittens will be deformed, mother in real danger), not a means of population control. Spaying on the other hand I'm 100% saying you should do as soon as safe to do so after the birth. Like the arguments for abortion versus birth control in people, except you don't normally spay people. Best of luck with it, and remember you can get lots of advice on here about giving birth or feeding kittens if there's anything you're not sure about.


But at the moment, they are only embryos, and once born they will be contributing to cat overpopulation, especially as they weren't planned and haven't got homes lined up already. Will OP be able to keep on any kittens that don't get rehomed? Will OP be willing to neuter/spay kittens before they go, so the same thing doesn't happen to them? If OP can't or won't, for whatever reason, it would be kinder to spay her whilst pregnant.

Also it is ridiculous to compare this to human abortion/humans not being spayed. Cats don't choose to get pregnant, it's not because they _want_ to raise kittens. People do, and if they are accidentally pregnant, it isn't up to other people to say they shouldn't abort just because the baby is viable.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> I'm so glad you don't have the heart to spay whilst already pregnant. I know it's a common piece of advice given on here, but personally I don't think there is a need for aborting potentially healthy, viable kittens. .


What so more kitten will need home and potentially take up rescue spaces


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I was not considering the problem of cat over-population when I made the suggestion to spay and abort at the same time. I was anxious about the girl's welfare. If she is already 5 weeks pregnant which is possible since she is looking 'rounder in the belly area' and her kittens were, say, 8 weeks old when they were rehomed, she would be having these kittens only about 4 months after the last litter. I think that is far too soon and could have an impact on her future health. Of course she may be perfectly fine but, if she were my girl, I would not want to take that risk unless it were unavoidable.

If her kittens were 13 weeks when they went to their new homes, it would still be too short a time between litters but not quite so much of a worry especially if she is only 3 weeks pregnant which is another possibility.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Cookieandme said:


> What so more kitten will need home and potentially take up rescue spaces


I'm sorry that doesn't make sense. Women abort their babies for many reasons, but to not take up orphanage room is never one I've heard of. This cat already has a round belly, kittens will be well developed and capable of feeling pain. Now if the mum was at Death's door, or there was a previous history of deformed kittens, suggesting inbreeding, there may be a case for it on medical grounds, but not to save rescue places. One might just as well say kill the cats that come into rescue to make more room for those still on the streets. Besides, as you would know very well if you had either worked or volunteered at a rescue place, kittens don't stay on the shelf for long, it's the elderly, the black ones, the timid ones who wait for their forever homes a long time. And even if the whole litter ended up in rescue, they would take up one pen between them as a family. Mum will look after them just fine for the first few weeks, if she struggles that's what Cimicat milk powder, and this forum, are for. Stick to your gut instincts Izziestars, and ask for help when you need it. And get her spayed ASAP afterwards.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

smoking guns said:


> But at the moment, they are only embryos, and once born they will be contributing to cat overpopulation, especially as they weren't planned and haven't got homes lined up already. Will OP be able to keep on any kittens that don't get rehomed? Will OP be willing to neuter/spay kittens before they go, so the same thing doesn't happen to them? If OP can't or won't, for whatever reason, it would be kinder to spay her whilst pregnant.
> 
> Also it is ridiculous to compare this to human abortion/humans not being spayed. Cats don't choose to get pregnant, it's not because they _want_ to raise kittens. People do, and if they are accidentally pregnant, it isn't up to other people to say they shouldn't abort just because the baby is viable.


They are not embryos, they are foetuses. And it is absolutely up to society to say what is acceptable as to legal age limits and reasons given for abortion if the "mother" is incapable of making an ethical decision. There are many reasons given for human abortion, some well thought out, reasoned arguments, some knee jerk panic, and it is absolutely right that a civilised society has laws regarding this. However we are talking about cats at the moment. Cats don't "choose" to become pregnant, true, they mate because their instinct is to reproduce. Similarly they cannot make a "choice" as to whether their bodies should undergo major surgery at a time the blood vessels to that part of their body are very well developed, increasing risk of haemorrhage. Neither can they "choose" to have their kittens killed or saved, that is the choice, and responsibility, of their human carer. We are not going to agree the same course of action, I can see, but Izziestars asked for advice, and this is mine, for better or worse : Izziestars, go with your heart. I don't seem able to post links, but Google development of 5 week kitten foetuses and click on the links and vet descriptions of what is there. At 5 weeks these are NOT clumps of cells, they have brains, eyes (though closed), ear flaps are developing and they are kicking other kittens for more space. The cat is 4 years old, fully grown, and has had kittens before, she might lose condition on a temporary basis, but she is going to be spayed anyway after this litter, she will regain it. Killing unborn kittens for medical reasons is one thing, to not take up rescue space is another.

As a final aside, I used to work in rescue, only for a few years before becoming disillusioned. I went in with a degree in science and a heart full of enthusiasm, and it was slowly eroded away. My first dog was from there as he was an "unhandleable" GSD with nervous aggression. I remember our policy was that a cat could be spayed up to 3 weeks before giving birth (i.e.at 6 weeks development). We who worked with the cats tried to object and were overruled. One morning I put a mother to be in her basket for the vet's trip, giving her an extra cuddle as I had a bad feeling. Later that day I was quite matter of factly asked if I could clean out her pen as she had died, and there would be another cat arriving shortly. Thinking back, that must have been about 18 or 19 years ago now, but the pain, and guilt I didn't fight harder for her remain. Izziestars, you don't have to fight that battle with a blinkered manager, this is YOUR decision.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sadly cats die being neutered from time to time, regardless of gender or if they are pregnant or not. Some cats (like some people) have bad reactions to anaesthetics, and plenty of other things can go wrong regardless of gender etc. 

It's a great shame you missed her spay appointment.

If the kittens ended up at a rescue yes, they would only take one pen, but it's highly unlikely they would all be rehomed to one house.

Cats are not humans, kittens are not babies, rescues don't have unlimited resources. Neither does the NHS, but it has a great deal more than a rescue for humans would.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Poor girl, at 4 years old she has probably had many babies. Thank goodness she has now found you and will be spayed after these next kittens and can lead a happy stressfree life! 
Sounds to me that her previous 'owners' couldn't give a damn about her, probably kept the cute kittens and got rid of the Mum because they couldn't be arsed to get her spayed. They can't care too much about her if they have blocked you from contacting them.
Good luck with mum and forth coming litter, look forward to hearing more about them x


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Can we not turn this into pro/anti abortion debate please.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I do not have statistics showing the dangers of an operation under anaesthetic as compared to the dangers of pregnancy, labour and lactation but even cats who have given birth successfully before can and do have problems which can be life-threatening. I would think this more likely if they are allowed to reproduce before they have had a chance to recover fully from a previous litter. It is not always possible to tell from their appearance. The advice I gave was an attempt to minimise risk, and was definitely not part of any personal crusade.

Izziestars, I hope all goes well with your girl.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sadly cats die being neutered from time to time, regardless of gender or if they are pregnant or not. Some cats (like some people) have bad reactions to anaesthetics, and plenty of other things can go wrong regardless of gender etc.
> 
> It's a great shame you missed her spay appointment.
> 
> ...


Now hang on a minute. Izziestars didn't miss her appointment, the cat went missing. She hasn't asked how to rehome the cat now she thinks it's pregnant, she's asked for our help in preparing for the kittens, and we owe it to her, and her cat, to help, not have little digs at her. She's trying to do the right thing in the situation she finds herself in. I would have thought a BREEDER, would have been more aware of the value of those tiny lives, and I don't mean in monetary terms. This is your post below isn't it, from 10 May this year? I guess it doesn't matter if you're "inundated" if you can guarantee a good home for all kittens. I mean people who buy your pedigrees are responsible owners, and people who buy moggies don't give a damn am I right?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

moggie14 said:


> Poor girl, at 4 years old she has probably had many babies. Thank goodness she has now found you and will be spayed after these next kittens and can lead a happy stressfree life!
> Sounds to me that her previous 'owners' couldn't give a damn about her, probably kept the cute kittens and got rid of the Mum because they couldn't be arsed to get her spayed. They can't care too much about her if they have blocked you from contacting them.
> Good luck with mum and forth coming litter, look forward to hearing more about them x


Thank you for supporting someone who came on here for help. These may have been accidental kittens, but they are here (or nearly here) now, and I for one will be looking forward to hearing about their progress.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Thank you for supporting someone who came on here for help. These may have been accidental kittens, but they are here (or nearly here) now, and I for one will be looking forward to hearing about their progress.


Not a problem, I'd rather people got support from the forum than felt alienated for letting their girl get pregnant. I'm all for educating and not judging x


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> Now hang on a minute. Izziestars didn't miss her appointment, the cat went missing.


Doesn't really matter if an appointment was missed or not, being 4 years old she should have been spayed long ago and certainly not allowed outside by the new owner.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

izziestars said:


> I have tried to contact her previous owners to no avail and have now found they have blocked me on facebook and my number. So I don't think I'm going to get any information from them now.


Considering they dumped a pregnant cat on you I'm not surprised.

Oh please do get her spayed. The poor little thing, going through pregnancy and labor again is the last thing she needs.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> Doesn't really matter if an appointment was missed or not, being 4 years old she should have been spayed long ago and certainly not allowed outside by the new owner.


Cat was homed on 4th May, booked for spay appointment 12th May, what more do you want? New owner booked operation for a week and a day after getting the cat. She'd have been on the phone to the vet a day or so after getting her, probably reasoned that she'd give the cat a few days to make herself at home and trust her before having her operation, which seems sensible to me, given the cat might need post op care or try to hide herself away under dusty cupboards. Cat escaped, not everyone has cages for their cats, not even nice big outside cages. Cat not being spayed by 4 years is not the responsibility of the new owner, she booked her in as soon as she got her. In all probability cat was already pregnant when she arrived, but even if she wasn't, the fact is she is now, and her owner came on here to ask for our help. Get off your pedestal and stop being so judgemental.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

What do cages have to do with anything??
Entire cats are easily kept inside by simply not letting them walk out the door.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> What do cages have to do with anything??
> Entire cats are easily kept inside by simply not letting them walk out the door.


 Or run ( cat had only been there a week), or get let out by a visitor, or open a window catch. Hope it never happens to you, you won't get a lot of sympathy.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Still not following why a run is required?

Or why I'd have visitors over who'd let my cats out.
unless the cats have some secret tool box i don't know how they'd be sneaking out windows


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I appreciate everyone's concern. I didn't let her out. When I cane home she must have been waiting by the door as soon as I opened it she did a runner. I tried to find her and went out looking every day! I even dragged my poor 4 year old out in torrential rain to look for her. I will defiantly be getting her spayed once kittens have been born and the vets say it is safe to do so. The reason I didn't book her in to be spayed immediately is because she was very shy and untrusting the first few days. I thought it would be too much stress having her kittens rehomed and then moving into a house with new people and 3 other cats. I work from home so will be with her all the way through this. I already have 3 homes lined up with family and friends for potential kittens. I will home check all potential adopters. Female kittens will be spayed before going to new homes. And I will happily take kittens back of the new owner can not keep them. I will even pay to have then back. If I cant find homes I will happily keep all the kittens for the rest of their lives. I want the best for my girl, like I do for all my other cats. I know I can care for them and give then amazing lives (I have 2 black 18year olds) my cats are my life. The reason I do not have the heart to spay while pregnant is because I know that o can provide all care she and they will need including any vet treatments etc. The kittens didn't choose to be born. But I will make sure they are all loved and cared for no matter what.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Still not figured how to 'quote' with the new style forum :/

I don't want to get into the pregnant spay debate but very much disagree with this, Catharinem - _"If you feel confident you can be around to help during birth if she needs you (work from home/retired/fulltime parent etc) I would let her birth naturally, but if you think there's a chance you won't be around (work commitments) I'd get an idea from the vet of when he thinks she's due, and nearer the time try and get as accurate an idea as possible and maybe caesarean"_

I don't believe that the possibility of not being around for the birth warrants an elective c-section with the associated risks of major surgery. Separately, someone inexperienced with breeding or pregnant cats/cats giving birth and so on is, naturally, highly unlikely to be able to gauge with any kind of reasonable accuracy, especially in this case where there is confusion over the apparent size of her tummy versus when she *could* have become pregnant. Moreover, vets are notoriously bad at predicting when a cat is due. That isn't a criticism of vets but just statement of fact that, if you don't know mating dates, it can be incredibly difficult to predict with any reasonable accuracy - many an occasion I have known breeders panicked into asking their vet to perform a section, only for it to be discovered that the kittens weren't quite full term. I had the "pleasure" last year of taking on someone's litter of marginally premature kittens (they couldn't take time off work), none of which survived past a few days.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Still not figured how to 'quote' with the new style forum :/
> I don't want to get into the pregnant spay debate but very much disagree with this, Catharinem - _"If you feel confident you can be around to help during birth if she needs you (work from home/retired/fulltime parent etc) I would let her birth naturally, but if you think there's a chance you won't be around (work commitments) I'd get an idea from the vet of when he thinks she's due, and nearer the time try and get as accurate an idea as possible and maybe caesarean"_
> I don't believe that the possibility of not being around for the birth warrants an elective c-section with the associated risks of major surgery. Separately, someone inexperienced with breeding or pregnant cats/cats giving birth and so on is, naturally, highly unlikely to be able to gauge with any kind of reasonable accuracy, especially in this case where there is confusion over the apparent size of her tummy versus when she *could* have become pregnant. Moreover, vets are notoriously bad at predicting when a cat is due. That isn't a criticism of vets but just statement of fact that, if you don't know mating dates, it can be incredibly difficult to predict with any reasonable accuracy - many an occasion I have known breeders panicked into asking their vet to perform a section, only for it to be discovered that the kittens weren't quite full term. I had the "pleasure" last year of taking on someone's litter of marginally premature kittens (they couldn't take time off work), none of which survived past a few days.


I was also surprised at the inconsistency of the advice given. Surely any breeder wishes to avoid a caesarean if possible.The thought of booking one in advance horrifies me. One of the arguments given against spaying and aborting at the same time was the risk of the operation. How much worse it would be for the girl to have a caesarean apart from the risk of the anaesthetic to the kittens.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I couldn't understand the inconsistency either.

I don't wish to sound harsh and I do understand that work and family commitments don't just go away, but I think that having made the decision not to spay (in early pregnancy) you assume the responsibility of being there, for as much time as humanly possible, for whatever 'window' of possible due dates can be fathomed.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm not for elective caesarians as a general rule, I would ALWAYS be there for my girls if at all possible. But even breeders get caught out, read Heartbroken by Tigermoon. However, at the time I posted I wasn't aware of Izziecats day to day routine. I was suggesting that an elective caesarean , ACCURATELY predicted by a proper vet exam nearer the time ( which is why I said get a rough idea now, then get a more accurate picture later on), might be preferable to either spaying whilst pregnant enough to already be showing, or leaving a cat alone during labour even if the cat was experienced. Not quite sure why the problem with that? This wasn't a conscious decision to breed, but an accident, and not all bosses are that understanding about short notice holidays. IF the owner can't be around for the birth ( which I stated was preferable to elective caesarean), then it has to be better to be at the vets for an accurately booked caesarian than to leave her alone, maybe with a breech, for hours at a time. If the owner can be there for the birth that is preferable in all ways. As for not knowing signs of labour, this might be true for early on, but at the point contractions are coming hard it would be difficult to miss. If kittens are coming regularly that's good, if she's pushing for ages and nothing happening then the vet should be able to advise. Get a vet who has an out of hours surgery. Either way, best for mum, having got to where we are now, and not closing the door after the horse has bolted, is to be at home with her owner watching carefully, with a vet at hand if needed. If the owner can't be there, then an elective caesarean would be better than leaving her alone and hoping. Hope that makes sense. It's like the Irish joke about asking how to get somewhere " well, I wouldn't start from here!"


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> Still not following why a run is required?
> 
> Or why I'd have visitors over who'd let my cats out.
> unless the cats have some secret tool box i don't know how they'd be sneaking out windows


Sorry, assumed your cats had a run/enclosure following your comments on "owners who don't bother with their cats":

that's what enclosures and cat proof yards are for  no need to be roaming around the neighbourhood.

But when I posted "or run" it was suggesting the cat ran, not "walked out the door" as you had said. 2 meanings of run
1) to go fast, as in did a runner
2) enclosure.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> I was also surprised at the inconsistency of the advice given. Surely any breeder wishes to avoid a caesarean if possible.The thought of booking one in advance horrifies me. One of the arguments given against spaying and aborting at the same time was the risk of the operation. How much worse it would be for the girl to have a caesarean apart from the risk of the anaesthetic to the kittens.


I've said the best thing for mum is to be at home with someone holding her paw. Obviously avoid a Caesarean IF POSSIBLE, at the time of posting we didn't know the owner's routine, or if she'd already used up this year's annual holiday allowance - possible if she'd had a big holiday over Easter instead of summer). Human caesareans are also booked in advance occasionally (elective caesareans). The cat's tummy is already rounded, already has a good blood supply to the uterus, caesarean or mid term/late abortion (don't fool yourselves 5 weeks is "early") risk to mum about the same at an experienced vet. And anaesthetic risk to kittens is just that, a risk. Abortion is a death sentence. I'm not saying it's ideal, I've said it is preferable to abortion or leaving mum to be in labour alone.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> <snip>
> I was suggesting that an elective caesarean , *ACCURATELY predicted by a proper vet exam* nearer the time
> <snip>


That's not possible with cats, unlike with humans.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry, still cannot agree that an elective section is to be preferred over a natural birth even if it does mean that you absolutely cannot guarantee that you'll be around for when it happens.

I still maintain that it is not possible, _in these circumstances_, to predict accurately when the kittens are due. Accurate to within a week? Maybe. Even with repeat vet visits to check progress, a scan, milk in the teats, etc, I personally still wouldn't feel that I was accurately predicting anything. In any event, if 'you' were of the opinion that you had accuracy, surely you would simply be around for your pinpointed dates waiting for delivery. A section because a cat is running into trouble at a given point is one thing, an elective section quite something else.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Still not figured how to 'quote' with the new style forum :/
> 
> .


Click the reply option in the post you are quoting - for some reason it is now reply and not quote  (Trying to be supportive)


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Cookieandme said:


> Click the reply option in the post you are quoting - for some reason it is now reply and not quote  (Trying to be supportive)


Ah, thank you, I think I've got it!


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Catharinem said:


> I'm not for elective caesarians as a general rule, I would ALWAYS be there for my girls if at all possible. But even breeders get caught out, read Heartbroken by Tigermoon. However, at the time I posted I wasn't aware of Izziecats day to day routine. I was suggesting that an elective caesarean , ACCURATELY predicted by a proper vet exam nearer the time ( which is why I said get a rough idea now, then get a more accurate picture later on), might be preferable to either spaying whilst pregnant enough to already be showing, or leaving a cat alone during labour even if the cat was experienced. Not quite sure why the problem with that? This wasn't a conscious decision to breed, but an accident, and not all bosses are that understanding about short notice holidays. IF the owner can't be around for the birth ( which I stated was preferable to elective caesarean), then it has to be better to be at the vets for an accurately booked caesarian than to leave her alone, maybe with a breech, for hours at a time. If the owner can be there for the birth that is preferable in all ways. As for not knowing signs of labour, this might be true for early on, but at the point contractions are coming hard it would be difficult to miss. If kittens are coming regularly that's good, if she's pushing for ages and nothing happening then the vet should be able to advise. Get a vet who has an out of hours surgery. Either way, best for mum, having got to where we are now, and not closing the door after the horse has bolted, is to be at home with her owner watching carefully, with a vet at hand if needed. If the owner can't be there, then an elective caesarean would be better than leaving her alone and hoping. Hope that makes sense. It's like the Irish joke about asking how to get somewhere " well, I wouldn't start from here!"


I have watched this thread with interest but now concern has prompted me to respond to the above as I am incredibly worried that anyone with a pregnant cat might consider an elective c section for a pregnant cat is the ideal solution to get around work commitments and time constraints.

I would like to draw attention to the fact that current feline antenatal and post natal treatment is in its infancy compared to what we are lucky to have available to us as people - even ultrasound scans are frequently wrong, in my own case couldn't identify a serious hole in the heart in the scanned kitten and there are numerous cases on here where scans have been inaccurate on number of kittens in utero etc. I seriously doubt any vet even carrying out ultrasound and radiography of the kittens in the womb could accurately identify the day of gestation exactly, especially with the lack of knowledge of actual mating dates and any breeder on here will tell you how sadly literally a single day too early by a natural birth can leave you with the heartbreak of unviable kittens due to underdeveloped lungs as the line between viable and unviable is incredibly tiny.

I have never been offered an elective c section by any vet in 20 plus years, due to the risks involved with any surgery this procedure is kept for medical emergency situations where intervention is the only possible outcome in all surgeries I have used.

I have tragically lost a much loved girl due to a massive stroke likely from a post surgery blood clot from her operation a week before and would never put convenience first and ask for elective and non-medically needed surgery to be done if there were another course of action possible...in this case to let the girl give birth naurally, to me its morally wrong to even consider it.

Commitment and preparation and putting your life on hold is part and parcel of looking after any pregnant cat and kittens regardless of breed and personal circumstances. OP can you sound the options out in advance so that if you know you are going to have trouble being there for your girl you can get your Plan B into place to have someone else knowledgeble and responsible up to speed and on standby to cover.

Hope this helps.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Sorry, still cannot agree that an elective section is to be preferred over a natural birth even if it does mean that you absolutely cannot guarantee that you'll be around for when it happens.
> 
> I still maintain that it is not possible, _in these circumstances_, to predict accurately when the kittens are due. Accurate to within a week? Maybe. Even with repeat vet visits to check progress, a scan, milk in the teats, etc, I personally still wouldn't feel that I was accurately predicting anything. In any event, if 'you' were of the opinion that you had accuracy, surely you would simply be around for your pinpointed dates waiting for delivery. A section because a cat is running into trouble at a given point is one thing, an elective section quite something else.


Absolutely, I would be around. But I was trying to appreciate that not everyone has the same ability as us to be there 24 hours for our cats. Suppose the owner had been working an 8 hour day, with a 1 1/2 hour commute either side? I wouldn't leave my cat for 11 hours and hope she was ok when I got home. But neither would I be spaying my cats at 5 weeks pregnancy. As I've said, in post 6, _"It all comes down to risk - giving birth quietly at home with someone to hold her paw is better for her, but a caesarean is better than being left alone during a difficult labour (big kitten, awkward position etc)"._ If you read my post through properly you'll see I previously said, just before that, _"I'd get an idea from the vet of when he thinks she's due, and nearer the time try and get as accurate an idea as possible and maybe caesarean and spay at the same time." _If the vet thought kittens were a reasonable size, and a reasonable risk, then a natural birth might still be preferable to an operation (especially in a cat who had given birth before). However, if there was a big kitten/kittens he might advise a caesarean as the best option. I didn't say "do this" I said "get as much info as possible and discuss with a vet". Now we know that the owner can be there, and the cat took a while to settle in, my advise is let her birth naturally with the owner holding her paw, which was actually my preferred option originally: _giving birth quietly at home with someone to hold her paw is better for her_


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

To give an example. One of my own girls was mated multiple times over a three day period and then, unfortunately due to my error, on a single occasion 6 days after the last of the three days. Experience and balance of probability would tell you that those kittens were due, depending upon how you count gestational days, 65 days from the initial 3 days mating. Her due date came... and went. Many conversations with the vet later, scan having been ruled out as we could still see lots of kitten movement and, besides which, the vet (more than one vet actually) said he would not be able to pinpoint with the accuracy we needed, the kittens' size, we decided to wait. A nail biting 10 days later she delivered seven healthy kittens, clearly not overdue and of average weight. Many breeders, I believe, would have pushed the vet to perform a section days before resulting in premature births.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

lisajjl1 said:


> I have watched this thread with interest but now concern has prompted me to respond to the above as I am incredibly worried that anyone with a pregnant cat might consider an elective c section for a pregnant cat is the ideal solution to get around work commitments and time constraints.
> 
> I would like to draw attention to the fact that current feline antenatal and post natal treatment is in its infancy compared to what we are lucky to have available to us as people - even ultrasound scans are frequently wrong, in my own case couldn't identify a serious hole in the heart in the scanned kitten and there are numerous cases on here where scans have been inaccurate on number of kittens in utero etc. I seriously doubt any vet even carrying out ultrasound and radiography of the kittens in the womb could accurately identify the day of gestation exactly, especially with the lack of knowledge of actual mating dates and any breeder on here will tell you how sadly literally a single day too early by a natural birth can leave you with the heartbreak of unviable kittens due to underdeveloped lungs as the line between viable and unviable is incredibly tiny.
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. I've never had to have a caesarean in my queens, but have had 2 myself, for medical reasons, not because "too posh to push". One was emergency, was an elective as she had a big head, and was a big baby, but it turned into an emergency when she started to make an appearance 2 weeks before her elective date! This is why I said MAYBE, have a planned caesarean, following discussion with a vet. I hope vets would be giving the same advice you are, i.e. electives for cats aren't at that stage yet, and come up with other options.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> To give an example. One of my own girls was mated multiple times over a three day period and then, unfortunately due to my error, on a single occasion 6 days after the last of the three days. Experience and balance of probability would tell you that those kittens were due, depending upon how you count gestational days, 65 days from the initial 3 days mating. Her due date came... and went. Many conversations with the vet later, scan having been ruled out as we could still see lots of kitten movement and, besides which, the vet (more than one vet actually) said he would not be able to pinpoint with the accuracy we needed, the kittens' size, we decided to wait. A nail biting 10 days later she delivered seven healthy kittens, clearly not overdue and of average weight. Many breeders, I believe, would have pushed the vet to perform a section days before resulting in premature births.


Yes, I get your point. I've had an overdue queen, but went on vets advice to wait and not do anything. The important thing is to have a good vet, and trust them. I would never push my vets to do anything, I have enormous respect for their opinions.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> I'm not for elective caesarians as a general rule, I would ALWAYS be there for my girls if at all possible. But even breeders get caught out, read Heartbroken by Tigermoon. However, at the time I posted I wasn't aware of Izziecats day to day routine. I was suggesting that an elective caesarean , ACCURATELY predicted by a proper vet exam nearer the time ( which is why I said get a rough idea now, then get a more accurate picture later on), might be preferable to either spaying whilst pregnant enough to already be showing, or leaving a cat alone during labour even if the cat was experienced. Not quite sure why the problem with that? This wasn't a conscious decision to breed, but an accident, and not all bosses are that understanding about short notice holidays. IF the owner can't be around for the birth ( which I stated was preferable to elective caesarean), then it has to be better to be at the vets for an accurately booked caesarian than to leave her alone, maybe with a breech, for hours at a time. If the owner can be there for the birth that is preferable in all ways. As for not knowing signs of labour, this might be true for early on, but at the point contractions are coming hard it would be difficult to miss. If kittens are coming regularly that's good, if she's pushing for ages and nothing happening then the vet should be able to advise. Get a vet who has an out of hours surgery. Either way, best for mum, having got to where we are now, and not closing the door after the horse has bolted, is to be at home with her owner watching carefully, with a vet at hand if needed. If the owner can't be there, then an elective caesarean would be better than leaving her alone and hoping. Hope that makes sense. It's like the Irish joke about asking how to get somewhere " well, I wouldn't start from here!"


My original suggestion was to take the girl for a vet check in an attempt to discover how far advanced the pregnancy was and then, if feasible, to have her spayed. My concern was, as always, the cat's welfare. I had two caesaraeans in 20 years of breeding and that was two too many. I still maintain that a spay would be better than putting her through another pregnancy etc straight after her previous litter. You were advocating a combined caesarean/spay which is not a pleasant thing for any girl to go through or a spay when the kittens were a month old? I definitely would not contemplate either course of action myself and I consider my original despised suggestion would impact far less on the girl.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> My original suggestion was to take the girl for a vet check in an attempt to discover how far advanced the pregnancy was and then, if feasible, to have her spayed. My concern was, as always, the cat's welfare. I had two caesaraeans in 20 years of breeding and that was two too many. I still maintain that a spay would be better than putting her through another pregnancy etc straight after her previous litter. You were advocating a combined caesarean/spay which is not a pleasant thing for any girl to go through or a spay when the kittens were a month old? I definitely would not contemplate either course of action myself and I consider my original despised suggestion would impact far less on the girl.


Yes, you were talking originally about early spaying if not too advanced. Something I still feel very uncomfortable about, but possibly justified depending on the overall health of the cat. Not something I'd be happy doing, but wouldn't villify others if they made a different choice. Talk then turned to the maths and how she could well be around 5 weeks pregnant, to me the balance shifted towards saving the lives of kittens that, although not perfectly formed, are capable of feeling pain. I would not contemplate spaying a cat 5 weeks pregnant, unless it was to save the life of the mum ( of course if she died the kittens would die with her anyway). My first choice was, and is, that she go through the pregnancy having reached this stage, giving birth at home with someone with her and the number of an on - call vet close to hand . Spaying would then be done at a future point after the blood vessels had shrunk back, on the best advice of a vet as to timing, which would itself be based on the information given by the owner - kept in or otherwise, living with toms or otherwise etc. I did indeed suggest a combined caesarean/spay as a better alternative to being left alone in labour, possibly over many hours, but stand corrected as to the accuracy of predicting exact stage of pregnancy as to having a good chance of kitten survival. I'm very happy to change my opinion if there is good evidence that I should do so. So if an owner could not be with their cat ( for any number of reasons, and not in this case anyway) I would instead say try to have someone you can trust stay in the house with her (again with a vet on- call), or even book into the vet as an inpatient to give birth. I'm afraid I still don't believe aborting at 5 weeks is the right advice to give, especially to an owner who came onto this forum asking for advice as to how to prepare for the kittens arrival.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I have stayed in a friends house to sit with her expectant cat, and ended up helping the cat as she tended to have babies all over the place and not pay them any attention until she had finished. Her cat knew me, and was happy for me to gather babies onto a heat pad and also break cords when she had two dangling from her vulva, kittens delivered but not the afterbirth.

However I would most certainly NOT book a cat as an in-patient to give birth. Firstly there will be sick cats around that she and/or the kittens could pick up an infection from, secondly cats are like women and a strange place can retard delivery (cats are very good at that), thirdly many vet surgeries are not manned 24x7, fourthly there's no guarantee that whoever is there knows anything about cats giving birth. 

The best thing IMHO if one is sure of the expected due date (which is usually only the case with a planned mating) is to take the week off work.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Yes, you were talking originally about early spaying if not too advanced. Something I still feel very uncomfortable about, but possibly justified depending on the overall health of the cat. Not something I'd be happy doing, but wouldn't villify others if they made a different choice. Talk then turned to the maths and how she could well be around 5 weeks pregnant, *to me the balance shifted towards saving the lives of kittens that, although not perfectly formed, are capable of feeling pain. *I would not contemplate spaying a cat 5 weeks pregnant, unless it was to save the life of the mum ( of course if she died the kittens would die with her anyway).


I do not usually speak so bluntly on this forum but how on earth do you rationalise the idea of saving kittens (who might or might not survive to term depending on many factors including, as you say, the mother's health,) simply because they can, theoretically, feel pain which they would never experience anyway if the mother was spayed, when you seem to have no concern for the mother's pain in any of the alternative scenarios you envisage?

To repeat, as far as I am concerned, any decision must put the cat already in existence before all other considerations and her welfare must come first.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Completely agree with QOTN. This cat should not have to endure another pregnancy/labor/birth.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Completely agree with QOTN. This cat should not have to endure another pregnancy/labor/birth.


Too late for this one I think.

I used to work in a Neo Natal Unit, and there is no doubt that babies born at 26 weeks feel pain. However it's also worth noting that the anaesthetic used for the mother for a c-section (if GA) crosses the placenta and affects the foetus, which might be partly why epidurals are often used for humans.


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

I am afraid 5 weeks gestation isn't a safe point at all for any expected kittens - quite the opposite, I have found if a girl is going to reabsorb her kittens its usually about this time or slightly later, l believe the skeletons of the kittens calcify in the last stage of pregnancy, in the last week of pregnancy I think but correct me if I am wildly wrong on this, for a girl who has kittens recently and who's reserves are already depleted I would think in my own opinion and from what I have actually seen in pregnant rescues here that there is a real possibility of the risk being increased - natures way of protecting the depleted mother.

The feline reproductive system is so rapidly different to ours that I find it quite confusing that we try to humanise discussions about feline pregnancy?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> I do not usually speak so bluntly on this forum but how on earth do you rationalise the idea of saving kittens (who might or might not survive to term depending on many factors including, as you say, the mother's health,) simply because they can, theoretically, feel pain which they would never experience anyway if the mother was spayed, when you seem to have no concern for the mother's pain in any of the alternative scenarios you envisage?
> 
> To repeat, as far as I am concerned, any decision must put the cat already in existence before all other considerations and her welfare must come first.


Because I feel abortion at that stage to be abhorrent, unless it is a life or death situation for the mother. Are you saying kittens wouldn't feel pain at 5 weeks development if the mother was spayed? I totally disagree, from a science degree background, including modules on reproductive development. If you are saying they wouldn't feel pain if they didn't exist because the mother had ALREADY been spayed, then I agree, but not relevant to this particular case. I have every concern for the mother's pain, abortions, spaying and caesareans are all pretty major operations. I've had 2 caesareans myself, and also have experienced labour pains. IF a caesarean was needed, then spaying at the same time would mean she would only be under anaesthetic once, instead of twice, and have one scar to heal. Ditto if she were to be aborted and spayed at the same time as is your preferred option. As for the pains of labour, yes it will hurt, and yes, a bad delivery could be risky for her, which is why I said she should not be left alone for hours. But I think the risk of labour, in a cat who has given birth previously, is less than the risk of complications in aborting a cat at that stage. I have already stated that at a rescue I worked we "lost" a pregnant mum I had fought not to have spayed, her welfare was my responsibility but I was overruled, with tragic consequences. If you are seriously suggesting she has an abortion to prevent labour pains then you need to apply the same argument to pedigree breeders, who breed deliberately, and whose queens' pregnancies are not the result of an accident. The owner came to us on this forum for advice on preparing for the kittens, and she is being told to abort them - she may well feel she can't come back for more advice when the kittens are born.

I have accepted that elective caesareans for cats are not at the stage we are with human elective caesareans, and this would not be an option. If the owner were not able to be at home I would no longer suggest that as a possible ( even when I did I suggested it as a "maybe" after consultation with a vet as to accuracy of predicting due dates). So other alternatives would need to be found to ensure the cat was not left alone in labour. To me, abortion is still not an option.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Remember the GA affects the kittens as well as the mother. When their nervous is developed enough to feel pain I reckon it's also developed enough to be affected by a GA.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Because I feel abortion at that stage to be abhorrent, unless it is a life or death situation for the mother. *Are you saying kittens wouldn't feel pain at 5 weeks development if the mother was spayed? I totally disagree, from a science degree background, including modules on reproductive development*.
> *But I think the risk of labour, in a cat who has given birth previously, is less than the risk of complications in aborting a cat at that stage. * *I have already stated that at a rescue I worked we "lost" a pregnant mum
> The owner came to us on this forum for advice on preparing for the kittens, and she is being told to abort them - she may well feel she can't come back for more advice when the kittens are born.*


Kittens at that stage of development would not survive a spaying operation. The placenta is their lifeline. Their lungs are nowhere near developed enough to be able to breathe on their own. I was only trying to highlight the absurdity of considering their pain as more significant than any the mother would feel in pregnancy, labour and birth etc.

I cannot argue about the relative risk of aborting at that stage compared with labour in a cat whose condition and history is unknown. That would be up to the vet concerned to evaluate. As has been stated in another post, many girls lose their pregnancy at this stage anyway. Depending on the reason, most will not have subsequent complications. Indeed it is often not possible to know if the pregnancy has actually ended until later.

You cite the instance of the rescued cat who died but you do not say what the cause of death was. Again it has already been stated that anaesthetic does carry a risk but all the possibilities being discussed here involve an anaesthetic at some point. It is likely that tragedy has no bearing on this case.

The owner was given information about pregnancy and also another course of action which she may not have previously considered. She has apparently decided to allow her girl to have the kittens but she has made that decision with more awareness of the risks involved. I hope she will not be deterred from asking for help in future. It was certainly not *my* intention to dictate her course of action.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

izziestars said:


> When I cane home she must have been waiting by the door as soon as I opened it she did a runner..


Train her not to run at the door, I use sit/stay with mine but you could just settle for training her not to dash. Be prepared as she can come into heat again soon after having kittens and you won't want her getting out again, for my girls they call 1-3 weeks after birth.

Wonderful you will be spaying females before rehoming  please get the males done as well though.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> Kittens at that stage of development would not survive a spaying operation. The placenta is their lifeline. Their lungs are nowhere near developed enough to be able to breathe on their own. I was only trying to highlight the absurdity of considering their pain as more significant than any the mother would feel in pregnancy, labour and birth etc.
> 
> I cannot argue about the relative risk of aborting at that stage compared with labour in a cat whose condition and history is unknown. That would be up to the vet concerned to evaluate. As has been stated in another post, many girls lose their pregnancy at this stage anyway. Depending on the reason, most will not have subsequent complications. Indeed it is often not possible to know if the pregnancy has actually ended until later.
> 
> ...


Of course kittens at that stage of development wouldn't survive a spaying operation. But they would feel pain being aborted and left to die, outside their mother's womb. I do NOT think considering their pain as they die is absurd, neither do I agree with your assessment that it is absurd to consider their pain as more significant than the mother's pain in pregnancy ( none of my queens have shown even discomfort during their pregnancies, and I loved both mine, as did many friends), labour and birth is the same thing, giving it 2 names doesn't double the emphasis. Labour pains are horrid, but come and go in spasms, and most mums forget them as soon as they have babies to nurse. I've had queens straining with a contraction and cuddling and washing her already born ones as soon as the spasm is over. How can you compare that ( which breeders put their queens through deliberately), with a kitten cut out of it's mothers womb and, as you yourself describe, be unable to breathe through their under developed lungs. The rescued cat who did not survive was under my day to day care, was spayed in the same sort of stage of pregnancy ( we spayed up to 6 weeks gestation), despite my pleadings with the manager not to. She died of massive haemorrhaging on the operating table. It was one of the many reasons I became disillusioned with the charity ( I'm not allowed to "bring The XXXXX into disrepute, according to my contract, but let's just say things behind closed doors weren't what the public would expect their money to be spent on).
The owner has thankfully reached a compassionate decision, not just for unborn kittens but in the best interests of her queen too, and I hope she will stick around for more advice if needed. The thing about forums is you can get a mix of information and advice, you digest the information and then make your own informed choices.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Remember the GA affects the kittens as well as the mother. When their nervous is developed enough to feel pain I reckon it's also developed enough to be affected by a GA.


Lets hope they stay under the entire length of time it takes them to die then. And let's hope the queen doesn't haemorrhage to death as her blood supply rich uterus is removed, as happened to a cat in my care whilst working for a charity. And hope the hormone levels in her blood settle quickly too, so she doesn't "miss" ( but not in a conscious way, let's not humanise this) the kittens her body has been preparing for.

It surprises me to hear this attitude from a fellow breeder, one who should value kittens' lives. Agreed, if owners don't want their cats to breed, or don't have the time, facilities etc, get them spayed BEFORE pregnancy, or even in the very first few days. I'm amazed, and a little disappointed, to find unborn kittens treated as unfeeling objects. I hope to God if you had a premature litter or underweight kitten you would do everything in your power to give them the very best chance of survival possible.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I do not think any of the recent argument is helpful to the OP. Closing this


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