# Cesar Milan-Debate continues



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

For the life of me I cannot understand why Cesar Milan has been accused of cruelty, by using a choke chain in the following circumstances

Dog Whisperer | Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | National Geographic Channel

What is the man supposed to do? I saw the episode in question and I thought he dealt with the said dog in a professional and kind manner.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Is that a wolf mix? Or one of the inuit or whatever breeds. Has he even got a choke on the dog is it not just the end of the lead? He did well to get it down like that even if we probably didn't see some of it. I'm not a fan of the man don't like most of his methods but some of the dogs he works with well he seems to work miracles with dogs that otherwise would be put down.


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> For the life of me I cannot understand why Cesar Milan has been accused of cruelty, by using a choke chain in the following circumstances
> 
> Dog Whisperer | Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | National Geographic Channel
> 
> What is the man supposed to do? I saw the episode in question and I thought he dealt with the said dog in a professional and kind manner.


I know ALOT of ppl dislike cesar and his methods, as many ppl have different opinions of dog trainers and there methods, be it TV dog trainers or not.

I personally agree with alot of his methods, however I used a check chain on my lurcher cross for the first 2 yrs of his training. As instructed by the behaviourist, and now Tyler has been sadly left with damage to his throat and coughs when put under stress or excited so now I can only put him on a harness, I believe this is down to the chain and now would never use one on my dogs.

Halti's have been a godsend for me personally, and I know the choke or check chains should be used to "correct" and when used properly should no choke or hard the animal, that is not the idea of it, and i certainly was told I was using it properly yet the damage to tylers throat remains and after many yrs of consulting with the vets, and no remedy I wouldnt risk using one again.

But back to the Cesar topic, I generally like his methods but would never truly follow one certain dog trainers ways I would always try several methods and what works for me and assists me in training my dogs, then I use that


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

He'd have probably done much better keeping the dog on a shorter lead, possibly with a head halti, there was no need to resort to the measures he had to gain control of the dog in my opinion he was just using the wrong equipment.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

There is a warning not to use his techniques without consulting a professional. I agre with his techniques but don't use them. I'm a massive Cesar Millan fan. I've been bullied and attacked for likeing him on this site but lets not go into that please. I just want a healthy friendly debate.
Danielle.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Nicci said:


> He'd have probably done much better keeping the dog on a shorter lead, possibly with a head halti, there was no need to resort to the measures he had to gain control of the dog in my opinion he was just using the wrong equipment.


Had he used a shorter lead he would have undoubtedly been bitten (in my opinion).

Also agree with Danielle regarding consulting a professional before using any TV techniques.

Danielle, there is NO place for bullies on this forum. If people want to disagree of course it is there prerogative, but healthy debate makes for a good forum.


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## Marlon (Jul 8, 2009)

dis guy deals wid silly dog let him cum to my area and try n tame dogs hell get his arm ripped off

good program doe


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Nina said:


> Had he used a shorter lead he would have undoubtedly been bitten (in my opinion).


Doubtful if he's as good as he proffesses to be


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

danielled said:


> There is a warning not to use his techniques without consulting a professional. I agre with his techniques but don't use them. I'm a massive Cesar Millan fan. I've been bullied and attacked for likeing him on this site but lets not go into that please. I just want a healthy friendly debate.
> Danielle.


Too true, Ive read alot of debates on here ppl hate him and so on and I agree the debate should remain friendly if poss.

You should not try any methods you see on tv without consulting your own behaviourist no matter what.

When it comes to breeding/dog trainers/dog food/everything everyone has the own opinion and theres always ppl out there who think they are right, but ppl have to realise they're entitled to there opinion as is everyone else, so theres never any need for bullying/nastyness simply because you dont agree, its whatever works for the owner and there dog I think

:001_tt2:


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Marlon said:


> dis guy deals wid silly dog let him cum to my area and try n tame dogs hell get his arm ripped off
> 
> good progrom doe


Oh no he won't. Ok he has been bitten but he still manages to calm dogs down. I'm a huge fan of his and Daddy and Junior are so cute.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

danielled said:


> There is a warning not to use his techniques without consulting a professional. I agre with his techniques but don't use them. I'm a massive Cesar Millan fan. I've been bullied and attacked for likeing him on this site but lets not go into that please. I just want a healthy friendly debate.
> Danielle.


*As most on here know i'm a great fan of cesar and i know he's not popular with some people, but i respect they are entitled to their oppions as we are.
As for the video clip well i'd hate to have been in his shoes and i didn't see him being cruel.but perhaps thats because he can't do any wrong in my eyes.*


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Nicci said:


> Doubtful if he's as good as he proffesses to be


Did you see that episode Nicci, his jumper was ripped to shreads as it was


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

ColliePower said:


> Too true, Ive read alot of debates on here ppl hate him and so on and I agree the debate should remain friendly if poss.
> 
> You should not try any methods you see on tv without consulting your own behaviourist no matter what.
> 
> ...


AND SO SAY ALL OF US


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> he can't do any wrong in my eyes.[/B][/COLOR]


and he is yummy :wink5::001_tt2:


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

He's been bitten quite a few times by dogs


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

this dog started off after cesar gave him a little tip in his behind..... now we dont know this dogs problem nor history. is it a dog with anxiety or a nervouss aggression? Then tipping it on its behind in an already nervous situation results in makeing the dog even more nervous and anxious resulting in cesar being bitten. He as an expert should have known better in this situation.

Also that 1 minute 50 took probably something like half an hour or even longer behind the scenes, the dog lying on the floor looks very much nearly strungled and trying to gasp some air....again he probebly was hanging the dog longer than this 1 minute 50 shown here.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

We had an American Bulldog with aggression problems she behaved just like that on a lead wasn't nothing that couldn't be sorted out by a man called Les Price he didn't resort to using a choke chain on her (not that I really have an opinion on them) he just used a head halti and a shorter lead very effectively


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Might just be me but i just hated watching that! You can clearly see the dog gasping for a breath!
Seems the higher Cesar pulled the lead up the more angry the dog was getting! Mind you if i had that round my neck strangling me i would lash out too!
I hate choke chains!!!


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Might just be me but i just hated watching that! You can clearly see the dog gasping for a breath!
> Seems the higher Cesar pulled the lead up the more angry the dog was getting! Mind you if i had that round my neck strangling me i would lash out too!
> I hate choke chains!!!


I felt uncomfortable watching that too, but I guess he had to do what he had to do to prevent injury


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

choke chain can be very usefull if used correctly by the right people....ur meant to check and release and NOT hang the dog .....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nicci said:


> I felt uncomfortable watching that too, but I guess he had to do what he had to do to prevent injury


...he put that dog into that state in the beginning making it worse by trying to hang it...to me it looked more like the dog tried to fight for its life at the end and not acting dominant...


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Natik said:


> choke chain can be very usefull if used correctly by the right people....ur meant to check and release and NOT hang the dog .....


I know nothing about choke chains and because of that i would NEVER use one!
Everything i have seen of a choke chain i have hated so it clearly hasnt been used correctly!

So maybe i should have said i hate what i have seen of them instead of hate them as i have never seen one used correctly!!


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Natik said:


> ...he put that dog into that state in the beginning making it worse by trying to hang it...to me it looked more like the dog tried to fight for its life at the end and not acting dominant...


Yes i agree! I mean if i was that dogs owner i would have lost the plot!
you can clearly see the dog is stressed! and getting more and more worked up!
until it has to give up because theres nothing else it can do! imo this is not a way i would want one of my dogs trained


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## Bex190 (Jun 30, 2009)

Is it just me or was the choke chain on the wrong way round? If you put it one way the chain will check and release but if you put it the other it will just keep getting tighter. It looked as though Cesar was having to manually loosen the chain at the end of the clip.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I think that once an opinion has been formed, it can become bias.

Any form of equipment used in the wrong way, can be harmful. I have used a choke chain in the past, but prefer to use a gentle leader on Luika now, simply because, he can react to certain dogs when on lead.

I would have no hesitation on taking a dog to see Cesar Milan. My understanding is, that he has saved many a dog from death row and I have never witnessed cruelty of any kind in his programmes.


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

he will never do anything that everyone agrees with. we all have our own levels or what we think is fair and not. but from what i've seen he's done what he thought is best for each case and got results, i can't dispute that.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> I think that once an opinion has been formed, it can become bias.
> 
> Any form of equipment used in the wrong way, can be harmful. I have used a choke chain in the past, but prefer to use a gentle leader on Luika now, simply because, he can react to certain dogs when on lead.
> 
> I would have no hesitation on taking a dog to see Cesar Milan. My understanding is, that he has saved many a dog from death row and I have never witnessed cruelty of any kind in his programmes.


nina ur right...and he definitly uses this equipment the wrong way...or do u say that a choke chain should be used to hang a dog?

My opinion is not biased...after having spent time seeing the right people dealing with aggressive dogs i have gained a better understanding of dog behaviour...thankfully!


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Natik said:


> ...he put that dog into that state in the beginning making it worse by trying to hang it...to me it looked more like the dog tried to fight for its life at the end and not acting dominant...


I felt really uneasy watching that and don't agree with the method used to gain control of the dog, the dog looked totally breathed out at the end in other words "broken" I don't like seeing that, I'll never agree with his methods but it's been done to the death on here, you either love him or hate him or sit in the middle and have no opinion. I can't watch the man although I understand why some people do.


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> this dog started off after cesar gave him a little tip in his behind..... now we dont know this dogs problem nor history. is it a dog with anxiety or a nervouss aggression? Then tipping it on its behind in an already nervous situation results in makeing the dog even more nervous and anxious resulting in cesar being bitten. He as an expert should have known better in this situation.
> 
> Also that 1 minute 50 took probably something like half an hour or even longer behind the scenes, the dog lying on the floor looks very much nearly strungled and trying to gasp some air....again he probebly was hanging the dog longer than this 1 minute 50 shown here.


You could be right there Natik hun....we dont know the full story.

As much as I agree with his methods Im sure we haven't seen the full length of the training on tv and yes we have no idea of dogs backgrounds, not fully anyway.

So I think when watching these things you have to have a open mind.

I certainly dont watch these things thinking "wow he did that in 1 minute wow hes a genius" theres always so much more to what we see.

However, what I see of his methods and Jan fennels I actually think seem very effective. Still, as i said i think you need to have a open mind and not be quick to judge or praise, as we're not actually "there"


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nicci said:


> I felt really uneasy watching that and don't agree with the method used to gain control of the dog, the dog looked totally breathed out at the end in other words "broken" I don't like seeing that, I'll never agree with his methods but it's been done to the death on here, you either love him or hate him or sit in the middle and have no opinion. I can't watch the man although I understand why some people do.


i used to watch him alot and stopped the day he classed an gsd being a red zone case because it didnt go on with the cat in the household .... the music they played in the background was like u would only hear in a horrorfilm...but i suppose that was to picture the dog in a bad way than it really was.


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

Nicci said:


> I felt really uneasy watching that and don't agree with the method used to gain control of the dog, the dog looked totally breathed out at the end in other words "broken" I don't like seeing that, I'll never agree with his methods but it's been done to the death on here, you either love him or hate him or sit in the middle and have no opinion. I can't watch the man although I understand why some people do.


I agree Nicci...I can also see why others dont like what he does sometimes, and then why ppl love him. I think alot of his and other trainers' methods are fantastic, but as I said earlier, you got to watch them with an open mind as we are not "there" we haven't seen behind the scenes.

I myself hated watching that dog panting and look slightly "choked" hence I hate those chains with a vengeance, but on the other hand IF the owner is happy with his method and agrees with what he did thatswhat matters as its her who's letting cesar handle her dog.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Natik said:


> i used to watch him alot and stopped the day he classed an gsd being a red zone case because it didnt go on with the cat in the household .... the music they played in the background was like u would only hear in a horrorfilm...but i suppose that was to picture the dog in a bad way than it really was.


Was that when he used an E-Collar on it and the dog went and lay under the table scared to even look at the cat ?


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Was that when he used an E-Collar on it and the dog went and lay under the table scared to even look at the cat ?


Thats the one i saw and have never watched it since! Made out the dog was the worse dog ever!
I have to admitt most of the ones i had seen i was un-comfy watching!
But each to our own


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Was that when he used an E-Collar on it and the dog went and lay under the table scared to even look at the cat ?


i cant remember this detail, i didnt have much knowledge about ecollars at that time, plus it was a time where i didnt know as much as i do now about dogs and i still sat there thinking "what the hell, he cant be serious"... the cat was the bigger problem, hissing screaming and scratching not wanting to be forced into the dogs face. The dog was only standing at the door barking...thats all it did. But i guess u can make out of anything a big issue to make it more interesting for the viewers.


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> nina ur right...and he definitly uses this equipment the wrong way...or do u say that a choke chain should be used to hang a dog?
> 
> My opinion is not biased...after having spent time seeing the right people dealing with aggressive dogs i have gained a better understanding of dog behaviour...thankfully!


Thats brill Natik...I like to think having my own behaviourist I too have gained more of an understanding of dog behaviour

But it is true also that there are ppl that will hate/disagree with his ways and ppl who love his ways, but we need to remember we dont see the whole story, we're watching it on a tv screen we cant possibly judge the whole situation.

I also think like another poster (sorry forgot there username) any training devices can be cruel and harmful if not used properly.

Its a opinion and we all are entitled to voice them, just hoping this debate created by OP stays friendly 

On a happy note i truly APPLAUD what he has done saving dogs life.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Is it my eyesight or what? And yes i want the truth, that doesn't look like a choke chain to me, more like a slip lead.*


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## Ty-bo (Jun 27, 2009)

I cant stand the guy-good for him if he has saved dogs from being destroyed but that was uncomfortable to watch.
Was it a normal choke chain or his favorite weapon, the one with prongs on the inside he used to half hang the dog? I saw an episode where he used the prong type on a JRT that hated its owners motorbike and its throat was red raw after trying to escape the bike.
I agree, we dont know the full history but it looks to me like he was making the dogs behavior worse and think Nicci is right-shorter lead and headcollar would have been fairer.
If it was my dog being hung I would not have been standing there like a muppet.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Is it my eyesight or what? And yes i want the truth, that doesn't look like a choke chain to me, more like a slip lead.*


now u mention this.... to me it looks like a normal leather lead being used as a slip lead but then the quality of the vid makes it more a guess than knowledge.

Which of course would be even worse as slip leads are not a training aid whatsoever and should only be used on already trained dogs!!!


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

I hate slip leads too, but IMO that does not look like a choke chain but you cant see properly just watching the video


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Weather a choke chain or not,Hes clearly strangling the dog! and i dont agree with what he did in that video


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Slip-lead/choke-chain, the end result is the same; a dog unable to breathe, and oxygen unable to reach the cells. He "controlled" that dog by cutting off its air supply. He put it in a situation where is was able to escape, and therefore had no option other than to fight back. That animal was panicing, it wasnt being aggressive. I could do that to my dog, and get the same result as that.

If he thought the dog was so dangerous and dominant, why the hell wasnt it muzzled? He DELIBERATLY puts these dogs in postions where they are forced to react. Any dog will defend itself when threatened and cornered, any idiot can work that one out and coem up with the goods for the camera.

Then to have the audacity to be holding the poor gasping creature down, and say that a protruding penis is the ultimate sign of "dominance" just proves this man hasnt a clue what he is talking about when it comes to animal behaviour.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

As I said, people either love him or hate him, and if you hate him opinion will never change regardless.


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

No, it does seem a little rough from where I'm sitting and not the way we think we'd handle it.....but how we would react, goodness knows, we're not there!

Its easy for us to say we wouldn't do that (and i probably wouldn't) but what I would do, and whether it would work I don't know!

As long as the owners ok with it, and the dog is ok his welfare is all im bothered about.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Slip-lead/choke-chain, the end result is the same; a dog unable to breathe, and oxygen unable to reach the cells. He "controlled" that dog by cutting off its air supply. He put it in a situation where is was able to escape, and therefore had no option other than to fight back. That animal was panicing, it wasnt being aggressive. I could do that to my dog, and get the same result as that.
> 
> If he thought the dog was so dangerous and dominant, why the hell wasnt it muzzled? He DELIBERATLY puts these dogs in postions where they are forced to react. Any dog will defend itself when threatened and cornered, any idiot can work that one out and coem up with the goods for the camera.
> 
> Then to have the audacity to be holding the poor gasping creature down, and say that a protruding penis is the ultimate sign of "dominance" just proves this man hasnt a clue what he is talking about when it comes to animal behaviour.


Couldnt agree more Nonnie!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Slip-lead/choke-chain, the end result is the same; a dog unable to breathe, and oxygen unable to reach the cells. He "controlled" that dog by cutting off its air supply. He put it in a situation where is was able to escape, and therefore had no option other than to fight back. That animal was panicing, it wasnt being aggressive. I could do that to my dog, and get the same result as that.
> 
> If he thought the dog was so dangerous and dominant, why the hell wasnt it muzzled? He DELIBERATLY puts these dogs in postions where they are forced to react. Any dog will defend itself when threatened and cornered, any idiot can work that one out and coem up with the goods for the camera.
> 
> Then to have the audacity to be holding the poor gasping creature down, and say that a protruding penis is the ultimate sign of "dominance" just proves this man hasnt a clue what he is talking about when it comes to animal behaviour.


*Well i didn't see what you did.But i will say this, if i had been in his shoes i probably would have reacted a damn sight worse.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> As I said, people either love him or hate him, and if you hate him opinion will never change regardless.


going from that its a choke chain he used nina...do u think he used this aid correctly on the dog?


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Slip-lead/choke-chain, the end result is the same; a dog unable to breathe, and oxygen unable to reach the cells. He "controlled" that dog by cutting off its air supply. He put it in a situation where is was able to escape, and therefore had no option other than to fight back. That animal was panicing, it wasnt being aggressive. I could do that to my dog, and get the same result as that.
> 
> If he thought the dog was so dangerous and dominant, why the hell wasnt it muzzled? He DELIBERATLY puts these dogs in postions where they are forced to react. Any dog will defend itself when threatened and cornered, any idiot can work that one out and coem up with the goods for the camera.
> 
> Then to have the audacity to be holding the poor gasping creature down, and say that a protruding penis is the ultimate sign of "dominance" just proves this man hasnt a clue what he is talking about when it comes to animal behaviour.


Excellent post


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

ColliePower said:


> No, it does seem a little rough from where I'm sitting and not the way we think we'd handle it.....but how we would react, goodness knows, we're not there!
> 
> Its easy for us to say we wouldn't do that (and i probably wouldn't) but what I would do, and whether it would work I don't know!
> 
> As long as the owners ok with it, and the dog is ok his welfare is all im bothered about.


but the dog was not ok...it was struggling to breathe


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> going from that its a choke chain he used nina...do u think he used this aid correctly on the dog?


Natik, aggression is one of the main reason dogs that dogs are euthanised. When people seek help from this guy a good percentage of dogs are at the last chance saloon and I believe that this dog was one of them.

At the start of the video, both Cesar and the dog are walking together with no problems, then the dog attacks. I can see no other way of addressing that aggression.

The dog was restrained and his energy played out. How would you have addressed this problem?

Dog aggression usually starts when the dog reaches maturity, hence the importance of early socialisation and training. I do not believe that this was done - hence the aggression.

They key is prevention, rather than cure


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Nina said:


> At the start of the video, both Cesar and the dog are walking together with no problems, then the dog attacks. I can see no other way of addressing that aggression.


Cesar taps the dogs bum with his foot before the dog starts attacking!
Now even i know you dont touch a dog from behind! and if the dog has already got problems then of course its going act like that!!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Ok i KEEP watching the same clip and i'm sorry to say this but i think some people are not watching the whole thing.Listen to what cesar says,he is TRYING to explain at the end this is NOT an aggressive(sp) dog its a domminent dog.Try to watch with an open mind. i might think he's the bee's knees but i only go by what i see.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> Natik, aggression is one of the main reason dogs that dogs are euthanised. When people seek help from this guy a good percentage of dogs are at the last chance saloon and I believe that this dog was one of them.
> 
> At the start of the video, both Cesar and the dog are walking together with no problems, then the dog attacks. I can see no other way of addressing that aggression.
> 
> ...


He taps the dog on the behind nina and that kicks the dog off!

There are different kinds of aggression, dog to dog aggression, fear or nervous aggression or people aggression. All has its different characteristics and they should be dealt with individually.

U dont tap a nervous aggressive dog on its behind while its alreday in a stressfull situation. And thats what cesar did! He put that dog into its state and then punishes it through strangeling. What does the dog actually learn from that?

Imagine u are scared of heights standing on a cliff and someone runs from behind giving u little push, u react with anger or panic to that surely and as a result to ur beheaviour this person starts strangleing u. Would this help u to overcome u fear of heights?

And u still havent answered my previous question nina


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

The man is a bully.
What I saw watching that clip ( you can watch it full screen if you click the wee yellow box at the bottom of the clip ) was a dog looking at another dog, Milan then brings his foot up and gets it in it's genitals, it then reacts and Milan starts to throttle it. I wonder if they tried a few times to get the dog to do something and when it didn't he decided to '' help the programme along ''. If that was my dog I'm afraid it would have been him with something around his neck.

The Humane Society of America asked National Geographic to pull his programmes a few years ago as they "expressed dismay over the numerous inhumane training techniques advocated by Cesar Millan on Dog Whisperer.

'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful

Terri


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

I am not a big a fan of his Dominance methods myself, I much prefer reward based methods.
The dog didn't really have a choice to fight back, i really dislike alpha rolling dogs......very dangerous.
If he used his methods on my fear aggressive girl, it really would break her!

Each to their own


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Kinski said:


> The man is a bully.
> What I saw watching that clip ( you can watch it full screen if you click the wee yellow box at the bottom of the clip ) was a dog looking at another dog, Milan then brings his foot up and gets it in it's genitals, it then reacts and Milan starts to throttle it. I wonder if they tried a few times to get the dog to do something and when it didn't he decided to '' help the programme along ''. If that was my dog I'm afraid it would have been him with something around his neck.
> *
> Sorry but i don't know where your genitals are but mine are no where near where Cesar TAPS the dog.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

He gets it just behind the front leg, so the dog reacts. He then proceeds to cut off the air supply, and thats why the dog kicks off. 

Hes lucky he didnt kill that animal. Ive seen one turn blue and pass out after having a catchpole used incorrectly on it. The dog is gulping and struggling to breath, and PANICING. You'd react like that if someone were choking you.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> He gets it just behind the front leg, so the dog reacts. He then proceeds to cut off the air supply, and thats why the dog kicks off.
> 
> Hes lucky he didnt kill that animal. Ive seen one turn blue and pass out after having a catchpole used incorrectly on it. The dog is gulping and struggling to breath, and PANICING. You'd react like that if someone were choking you.


*
I'm sorry but you are SO wrong. for anyone that hates Cesar Milan all i ask is watch the guy.How could a guy so full of love for dogs want to harm them? i might be old but i'm not stupid.....yet. lol*


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## slakey (May 9, 2009)

That's not a choke chain... it's the handle of a *what looks like* a normal leather lead... You can see the clip near Cesar's hand.

Alot of people are saying he handled the dog wrong, but in that situation, what would you have done?


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Kinski said:
> 
> 
> > The man is a bully.
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I'm sorry but you are SO wrong. for anyone that hates Cesar Milan all i ask is watch the guy.How could a guy so full of love for dogs want to harm them? i might be old but i'm not stupid.....yet. lol*


janice, i dont hate him and i dont love him.....

And to the why the answer is viewers numbers rule if a programm continues and of course keeps the money coming in  And nobody would watch something which involves time, effort and no dramatic and nail biting scenes


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I'm sorry but you are SO wrong. for anyone that hates Cesar Milan all i ask is watch the guy.How could a guy so full of love for dogs want to harm them? i might be old but i'm not stupid.....yet. lol*


I use to watch Cesar alot, i saw a few series of his i didnt like and rather upset me so i stopped watching him!! I wouldnt say i hated him(Much lol) but i certainly hate some of the methods and techniques hes chooses to use and they way he address some situations!!


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I like him, but it was uncomfy to watch the dog struggling to breathe


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> janice, i dont hate him and i dont love him.....
> 
> And to the why the answer is viewers numbers rule if a programm continues and of course keeps the money coming in  And nobody would watch something which involves time, effort and no dramatic and nail biting scenes


*
FAIR play to you Natik, i've just shown the clip to my hubby who to be honest couldn't care a hoot. but he says the same as i do.But this much i do know, i've owned 2 gsd and both had "issues". now my hubby is no small guy but could he change their charactor? nope! had cesar been in this country i would have welcomed him with open arms.*


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> i've just shown the clip to my hubby who to be honest couldn't care a hoot. *


I've shown it to my oh as well, oh has nothing to do with training the dogs and is very much of the old school in everything he does , my oh turned around and said '' what an a***, he deserves to get bitten''.
You've still not said what the dog did in the clip to warrant what Milan did to him nor have you commented on The Humane Society wanting him taken of the air.

Terri


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Janice im with you on this 

I think the thing is we all have different interpretation about what we see...we see the same thing but interpret differently...

I think we should all meet Cesar in person - a big petforum meeting LOL and then we can "judge" his methods! 

xx


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nicci said:


> Doubtful if he's as good as he proffesses to be


The proof is in the pudding. He successfully manages 30-40 dogs at any one time. Most of them troubled rescue dogs.

Then again, people will probably say he beats the dogs to keep them in line, or it is trick photography!

Rather than accept that he has a genuine talent.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> The proof is in the pudding. He successfully manages 30-40 dogs at any one time. Most of them troubled rescue dogs.
> 
> Then again, people will probably say he beats the dogs to keep them in line, or it is trick photography!
> 
> Rather than accept that he has a genuine talent.


No, he doesnt...he has a big team and staff which stays behind the camera watching the dogs, interfering incase some behaviours escalate, they feed them, they clean up after them, they walk them, they play with them .... but all the viewers get to see is cesar


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> this dog started off after cesar gave him a little tip in his behind..... now we dont know this dogs problem nor history. is it a dog with anxiety or a nervouss aggression? Then tipping it on its behind in an already nervous situation results in makeing the dog even more nervous and anxious resulting in cesar being bitten. He as an expert should have known better in this situation.
> 
> Also that 1 minute 50 took probably something like half an hour or even longer behind the scenes, the dog lying on the floor looks very much nearly strungled and trying to gasp some air....again he probebly was hanging the dog longer than this 1 minute 50 shown here.


Hanging the dog! lol The reason he was gasping was because he was knackered trying to attack cesar.

Always amazes me, how people see things differently!

The dog was dominant and aggressive as his owners had said.

He acheived the end result and if you saw the show, you can see the dog does not suffer any psychological damange after.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Hanging the dog! lol The reason he was gasping was because he was knackered trying to attack cesar.
> 
> Always amazes me, how people see things differently!
> 
> ...


he was fighting for his life that poor dog, not even understanding WHY and WHATS just happening to him !!!! 
That wasnt dominance...that was FEAR!

Im sure they wont show failings on his show or else that would damage his so undeserved rep!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> No, he doesnt...he has a big team and staff which stays behind the camera watching the dogs, interfering incase some behaviours escalate, they feed them, they clean up after them, they walk them, they play with them .... but all the viewers get to see is cesar


Of course, it is nothing to do with Cesar. WE've all been fooled! What are your comments to how he managed his pack BEFORE he got famous? He had no staff then, just him and his wife. He started off with 15 rottweilers in the beginning. How do you explain that?  A stroke of luck perhaps???


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> he was fighting for his life that poor dog, not even understanding WHY and WHATS just happening to him !!!!
> That wasnt dominance...that was FEAR!
> 
> Im sure they wont show failings on his show or else that would damage his so undeserved rep!


How can you say it was fear, when you were not there in person? None of us can truly say what issues the dog had, either way it began attacking him so he couldn't do much else. Give in to a dominant dog and they become more dominant and psychologically powerful.

The tapping on the back end of a dog is to snap it out of what it is doing. I do it with my guys quite often, they focus on another dog for example and they need to be "snapped out of it". It's not cruel, just provides a distraction!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Of course, it is nothing to do with Cesar. WE've all been fooled! What are your comments to how he managed his pack BEFORE he got famous? He had no staff then, just him and his wife. He started off with 15 rottweilers in the beginning. How do you explain that?  A stroke of luck perhaps???


I havent investigated his past or how he started


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> He taps the dog on the behind nina and that kicks the dog off!
> 
> There are different kinds of aggression, dog to dog aggression, fear or nervous aggression or people aggression. All has its different characteristics and they should be dealt with individually.
> 
> ...


I think on this one, we will have to agree to disagree

I have worked with so many dog trainers Natik and each has their individual opinion as to how to address problems. Sadly, each one thinks that theirs is the correct way.

As Janice stated previously, each person is putting their own interpretation on what they see and the debate will continue.

At no point in the clip would I consider Cesar's actions to be strangulation. I see this as 'restraining' the dog. Prevention from being bitten. I also think that you would need to see the programme in its entirety which would include hearing the dogs history, something which is not shown here.

His behaviour, modification and dog obedience training are I believe, based on classical and operant conditioning techniques (meaning having an influence or effect). This is where conditioning techniques can be divided into reward techniques and or aversive techniques. No I didn't swallow a dictionary folks, it was explained to me by Roger

Personally, I think from watching Cesar Millan, he mainly uses aversive techniques, which some people consider to be overly harsh or cruel. However, some of Cesar Millan's most effective dog training techniques do turn out to be reward based, even though they do not seem presented as such.

While I admit to finding some of Cesar's methods questionable, I cannot argue with his results and dogs will continue to be saved from euthanasia. He cares when others don't


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> How can you say it was fear, when you were not there in person? None of us can truly say what issues the dog had, either way it began attacking him so he couldn't do much else. Give in to a dominant dog and they become more dominant and psychologically powerful.
> 
> The tapping on the back end of a dog is to snap it out of what it is doing. I do it with my guys quite often, they focus on another dog for example and they need to be "snapped out of it". It's not cruel, just provides a distraction!


how can u say the dog was dominant when u were not there in person either?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> While I admit to finding some of Cesar's methods questionable, I cannot argue with his results and dogs will continue to be saved from euthanasia. He cares when others don't


And thats the whole problem.... beating a dog stops it from barking most likly too so hey, who cares as long it works  

Most of the dogs he handles have everyday problems made into something they arent on tv like my previous example proves.

Would u nina consider a dog which doesnt go on with a cat as a red zone case having to be pts?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Because that was the diagnosis from cesar and I believe, the owners.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> And thats the whole problem.... beating a dog stops it from barking most likly too so hey, who cares as long it works
> 
> Most of the dogs he handles have everyday problems made into something they arent on tv like my previous example proves.
> 
> Would u nina consider a dog which doesnt go on with a cat as a red zone case having to be pts?


Are you saying that Cesar advocates euthanasia, for dogs who are cat aggressive  It seems that this debate is now sadly deteriorating and I was really hoping it would remain a friendly discussion - sigh


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Slip-lead/choke-chain, the end result is the same; a dog unable to breathe, and oxygen unable to reach the cells. He "controlled" that dog by cutting off its air supply. He put it in a situation where is was able to escape, and therefore had no option other than to fight back. That animal was panicing, it wasnt being aggressive. I could do that to my dog, and get the same result as that.
> 
> If he thought the dog was so dangerous and dominant, why the hell wasnt it muzzled? He DELIBERATLY puts these dogs in postions where they are forced to react. Any dog will defend itself when threatened and cornered, any idiot can work that one out and coem up with the goods for the camera.
> 
> Then to have the audacity to be holding the poor gasping creature down, and say that a protruding penis is the ultimate sign of "dominance" just proves this man hasnt a clue what he is talking about when it comes to animal behaviour.


ive just caught up with this thread & i completely agree with you Jenna x

just to add watching that made me really uncomfortable, plus that dog reminded me of my own dog Shadow


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> Are you saying that Cesar advocates euthanasia, for dogs who are cat aggresive


Dogs arent cat aggressive lol 

They either follow their instinct to hunt and chase and see a cat as prey or they fear the cat.

Would u consider this as a red zone case urself??????


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> Dogs arent cat aggressive lol
> 
> They either follow their instinct to hunt and chase and see a cat as prey or they fear the cat.
> 
> Would u consider this as a red zone case urself??????


Grrrrrr Natik, you are making me delerious If I watch that darn video again I will scream or go completely ut:

My last word on this subject is simply, that we will agree to disagree - end of


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> Grrrrrr Natik, you are making me delerious If I watch that darn video again I will scream or go completely ut:
> 
> My last word on this subject is simply, that we will agree to disagree - end of


lol  well, my unanswered questions still stand and feel free to answer them anytime u want


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> lol  well, my unanswered questions still stand and feel free to answer them anytime u want


Okay Natik, you asked for it. Nina slaps Natik around the legs with a wet kipper :001_tt2:


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## *WillsTillsBills* (May 12, 2009)

I personally love Cesar Milan, if I thought he was cruel, I wouldn't watch... I personally have tried using a choke chain, we walked half way up the road and came straight back, I felt cruel! but I do think he has the right principles. As for the video, I can't see how we can judge, as we wern't there...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> Okay Natik, you asked for it. Nina slaps Natik around the legs with a wet kipper :001_tt2:


hehehe ..... :smilewinkgrin:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

I have watched this videoe a few times. What upset me is the fact the Dog was walking past the other one note the tail wagging and Milan just kicked its back leg Now that is when the dog went Berserk and I do not blame it one bit. As for the choke chain if he did not upset the dog he may have never needed to use it in the barbaric way he did 
ps Watch it with no sound


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

Actually that is exactly the role of the professional, to take the risks for others in dangerous situations. That is one of the key reasons why they keep saying use a professional AND make a point to show the bites - all of them- even in slow motion if needed.

if you watch the show, all key elements are kept in. If it takes a while, what they have done in many episodes is show a clock moving quickly to show the actual time taken with that exercise to change the dog's behavior.
CJ Anderson



Natik said:


> this dog started off after cesar gave him a little tip in his behind..... now we dont know this dogs problem nor history. is it a dog with anxiety or a nervouss aggression? Then tipping it on its behind in an already nervous situation results in makeing the dog even more nervous and anxious resulting in cesar being bitten. He as an expert should have known better in this situation.
> 
> Also that 1 minute 50 took probably something like half an hour or even longer behind the scenes, the dog lying on the floor looks very much nearly strungled and trying to gasp some air....again he probebly was hanging the dog longer than this 1 minute 50 shown here.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*LOL ok i've watched the video AGAIN ( and it has nothing to do with my crush on cesar ). Now if you watch it without the sound how can you get the message? Cesar actualy states the body language of the dog also for those who might think its not strictly as we see it, ie they leave bits out, notice its cesar thats out of breath not the dog.*


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## ColliePower (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> Are you saying that Cesar advocates euthanasia, for dogs who are cat aggressive  It seems that this debate is now sadly deteriorating and I was really hoping it would remain a friendly discussion - sigh


Since reading through the discussions I have to agree with you there Nina, the thread is deteriorating and people seem to not be letting others have there opinions and its getting a little tense...

We all have our own feelings, none of are were there, we can all assume what we think we can see or what he did, but if Im right Nina started this so we can have a friendly discussion, each to there own, I agree with all have to agree to disagree on each others views, otherwise this thread will probably get closed


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

ColliePower said:


> Since reading through the discussions I have to agree with you there Nina, the thread is deteriorating and people seem to not be letting others have there opinions and its getting a little tense...
> 
> We all have our own feelings, none of are were there, we can all assume what we think we can see or what he did, but if Im right Nina started this so we can have a friendly discussion, each to there own, I agree with all have to agree to disagree on each others views, otherwise this thread will probably get closed


PLEASE DO NOT CLOSE THIS THREAD. I guess I knew it may deteriorate when I started the darn thing, but so far I do feel that feelings have been restrained 

I made a decision not to comment further since circles came into mind  Everyone has their own feelings about Cesar Milan and I am like ColliePower, all for healthy and friendly debate.

I will just say ONE more thing on this subject of which I HOPE we are all in agreement. Cesar Milan has done wonders to promote the reputation of Pit Bull Terriers. Junior and Daddy are both shining examples :thumbup:

Now I really will slap legs with wet kippers if anyone disagrees with that :001_tt2:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*lmao Nina i now have a bigger problem with you and these kippers you keep on about.*


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmao Nina i now have a bigger problem with you and these kippers you keep on about.*


Yes, and they stink an all


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## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

I am not an avid fan, nor do I hate, Caesar. I am somewhere in-between.

Watching the clip of Shadow (I've not seen this particular episode), I believe Caesar is using his infamous tap to re-direct Shadow's attention before he becomes fixated on the collie; unfortunately his tap provoked Shadow to attack him. Normally the reaction from the dog is more of "Huh? Why'd you do that?", and it gets them to look away from the stimulus. Casesar could have easily requested that his encounter with Shadow not be aired. He probably knew it would be controversial.

I think I am seeing a brown, leather(?) collar around Shadow's neck - it is the collie who is wearing a choke chain. As with all Caesar's cases, he uses what the owner feels works for them. Caesar does, occasionally, swap what the owner uses for his "Illusion" collar - not sure how I feel about that; I don't profess to know enough to make an informed decision.

I was uncomfortable watching the attack and the subsequent "pinning down". We don't know how much of this was edited out. Caesar looked amazingly calm, considering the situation; isn't it possible Shadow was exhausted after what he'd just done?

I think I am seeing Caesar using food, treats and toys more frequently in his recent shows. Perhaps you can teach an old dog new tricks


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> * Now if you watch it without the sound how can you get the message? *


Because without his glib talk in the background you can really see what's happening, Milan would make a great talk show host.
Can any of you that like him please comment on what you think of The Humane Society wanting his programmes pulled .

Terri


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Kinski said:


> Because without his glib talk in the background you can really see what's happening, Milan would make a great talk show host.
> Can any of you that like him please comment on what you think of The Humane Society wanting his programmes pulled .
> 
> Terri


My comment would be that they should focus on animals which really need help rather than somebody who has done a wonderful job of rehabilitating dogs.

I have not heard of this so cannot comment further.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> My comment would be that they should focus on animals which really need help rather than somebody who has done a wonderful job of rehabilitating dogs.
> 
> I have not heard of this so cannot comment further.


I put a link on earlier, I'll shove it on again . It was from 3 years ago.

'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful

Terri


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

"The training tactics featured on Cesar Millan's Dog Whisperer program are inhumane, outdated and improper, according to a letter sent yesterday to the National Geographic Channel by American Humane, the oldest national organization protecting children and animals. 

In the letter, American Humane, which works to raise public awareness about responsible pet ownership and reduce the euthanasia of unwanted pets, expressed dismay over the numerous inhumane training techniques advocated by Cesar Millan on Dog Whisperer.

Several instances of cruel and dangerous treatment -- promoted by Millan as acceptable training methods -- were documented by American Humane, including one in which a dog was partially asphyxiated in an episode. In this instance, the fractious dog was pinned to the ground by its neck after first being hung by a collar incrementally tightened by Millan. Millans goal -- of subduing a fractious animal -- was accomplished by partially cutting off the blood supply to its brain. 

The letter requests that National Geographic stop airing the program immediately and issue a statement explaining that the tactics featured on the program are inhumane, and it encourages National Geographic to begin developing programming that sets a positive example by featuring proper, humane animal training. In its letter, American Humane said: We believe that achieving the goal of improving the way people interact with their pets would be far more successful and beneficial for the National Geographic Channel if it ceased sending the contradictory message that violent treatment of animals is acceptable.

As a forerunner in the movement towards humane dog training, we find the excessively rough handling of animals on the show and inhumane training methods to be potentially harmful for the animals and the people on the show, said the letters author, Bill Torgerson, DVM, MBA, who is vice president of Animal Protection Services for American Humane. It also does a disservice to all the shows viewers by espousing an inaccurate message about what constitutes effective training and appropriate treatment of animals. 

Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German shepherd were jeopardized in one episode by the use of an electric shock collar, which forced the tormented dog to redirect its aggression at its owner, biting her arm. Furthermore, the television audience was never told that Mr. Millan was attempting to modify the dogs behavior by causing pain with the shock collar, he said."


Copied for those who dont usually click on provided links


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

I haven't seen the video, and am not a fan of Ceasar Milan's methods but regardless, just want to point out that this is a TV show first and foremost. 

This means that what you see on the final programme (or in this video clip) is not how it has happened in reality. There will be much that has happened before to get to this stage, this is one reason why it is so dangerous to take what he does at face value.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *LOL ok i've watched the video AGAIN ( and it has nothing to do with my crush on cesar ). Now if you watch it without the sound how can you get the message? Cesar actualy states the body language of the dog also for those who might think its not strictly as we see it, ie they leave bits out, notice its cesar thats out of breath not the dog.*


I've got a crush on Cesar too. Your dead right Cesar is the one who is out of breath not the dog. I think he did really well with Shadow.


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## Amelia_87 (Oct 15, 2008)

I think that Cesar is very good, although i can understand people will disagree over his methods. Before seeing the show, I had never thought of treating a dog in a purely instinctual manner - I had never really thought that they dont act and think in the way that humans do, as they can be humanized and can have human type characteristics and personalities. 

However, regarding the humane society - if Cesar didnt help some of the dogs in question, they would almost certainly be put to sleep as many of the handlers and owners had previously no clue how to handle them and the dog would never have improved and have been written off as dangerous. So in this case, Im guessing the humane society would be moaning about how so many dog breeds are being labelled and being put down due to their agressiveness - there is the whole idea of blaming the deed and not the breed (which I think is correct, as a breed should not be labelled, i mean look at cesars dog Daddy, i love him!! That breed is banned in the UK!). Theres no way of winning in the situation. I do see it as helping the dogs though, if they were left, the owners wouldnt understand the dog and would keep treating it the same and the dog would continue with its aggresive ways and so on!!

Ive watched many episodes, inclding the original clip at the start of this thread, and have never particularly thought any of his methods were cruel. The only thing I will say, is that when he uses his foot, Im guessing someone whos never seen him using it, if they saw a person doing it, they would think it was cruel and see it as kicking your dog - not everyone thinks of dogs in the same way, so there will always be a debate about him, thats how I see it.
Some people use them as working dogs - so will not humanize them, some people do, as they have them as companions, some people believe them to be their babies and spoil them and dress them up and so on, and some people will adopt cesars technique. Everyone is different in the way they bring up their dog - much the same as people disagreeing over the way to raise a child really!!

What i want to say, that is sort of related (hehe), the one thing that bothers me with breeds is that some people (some of the people on his show also did this) believe that smaller dog agression issues are cute and funny, and that when a small dog bites you, it doesnt matter and the dog was just barking and being funny. I DO NOT agree with this behaviour as if a larger dog did it, it would not receive the same response, and would probably be put down. 
Its just a pet hate of mine, as i do think a lot of smaller dogs manage to get away with agressive behaviour and it drives me mad!!

Haha, ok, Ill stop babbling now! Hehe

x


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

ColliePower said:


> Since reading through the discussions I have to agree with you there Nina, the thread is deteriorating and people seem to not be letting others have there opinions and its getting a little tense...
> 
> We all have our own feelings, none of are were there, we can all assume what we think we can see or what he did, but if Im right Nina started this so we can have a friendly discussion, each to there own, I agree with all have to agree to disagree on each others views, otherwise this thread will probably get closed


The best thing for us all to do is to agree to disagree. Lets all have a nice friendly discussion about Cesar Millan.


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## iibao (Jul 3, 2009)

I disagree with him on using a choke chain.
I dislike choke chains, because most dogs just keep pulling choking
and get choked so badly. The only collars I believe that should be used 
for training is just normal collar or a prong.
He has change minds of many people on pitbulls, including me.
So if it wasn't for him, I would of been one of the idiots for BSL.

I have actually worked with an aggressive siberian husky.
The siberian husky was adopted by a family, but was returned 
because he bit of their kid. When I had him, he bit one of our smaller dog.
Positive training did not work for him. After having for around 2 weeks, 
he change so much. He got placed in a house with someone that understand hims. That person also used some of Cesar's method. He got the husky better
behavior than I ever could.



Kinski said:


> The Humane Society of America asked National Geographic to pull his programmes a few years ago as they "expressed dismay over the "numerous inhumane training techniques" advocated by Cesar Millan on "Dog Whisperer."
> 'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful
> Terri


I wouldn't really listen to what the Humane Society Of America says. They will mostly put down most of the dogs, or won't accept them.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I am quite a big fan of this guy and would happily hand my dogs over to him anyday, I am actually joined to part of a group who are requesting him to come to the uk.

I have watched that video countless times from the whole thing to the clip seen on the video, I again see nothing wrong.

I am also a fan of Victoria, and she herself has stated that so much is cut off when it's placed on tv that you do not see what really happens, and everyone only gets a quickly formed perception of what's going on.

I, myself use a variety of techniques from ceaser to victoria to thing's I have learnt from other trainers and working with my own dogs. In truth it is a tv show and if you do not like it, do not watch it. You have the choice of how you train your dog and in truth if it works for you, then it can't be all that bad?

We all agree to disagree on various things, I am not very trusting to vets and would not ask them for advice, where as other people would lap up anything said to them.

I feel that you should meet somebody and spend the time with them and THEN decide, not based on either a book or a television program or even what someone else has said.

In an example of something that is true to life; I had heard of this one trainer who was part of ADPT (I think it's that?), now I had heard only good things of ADPT so automatically assumed that this person was a great trainer. Now others had said she was good but I found my opinion was soon to change after she was presented with an 10 month old springer spaniel who's ball obsession was wreaking havoc, how you say? well he would attack other dogs for or over a ball, would knock people over and climb all over them to get one, he would destroy items like bags that possessed balls in them and when he had a ball he would never let it go and I don't mean by possessive, i mean by if you placed it somewhere he would not move or do everything in his power to get it back.

After 6 weeks of training we got no results, would you believe what she suggested? to euthanize him as there was no way it could ever get better and son he would attack people. I can tell you now I was in horror and i'm pleased I never followed her advice as barney although still ball obsessed, i found If I used it to work him then all our problems were solved

I do not believe that you can accuse someone or something unless you know the real truth.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I cant watch the video, it wont open for me. I dont watch his programme because the odd bits I have seen have horrified me. And I am 'old school' and believe in check chains and discipline and making a dog do as it is told but not ending up with the closed off reaction he gets.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I have mixed feelings on this guy, as for the choke chains, no I would not use a spike one that I have seen him use but the standard chains used correctly they can be an aid to training. Problems can start when people use them incorrectly, for instance are you aware that if the chain is on correctly and you allow the dog to swop sides with you then the chain is being worn incorrectly.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Nicky09 said:


> He's been bitten quite a few times by dogs


Well all I can say is it serves him right, any one who puts a choke chain or any sort of barbaric collar on a dog deserves to get bitten. I have no time for his type of training in fact I think he is cruel and a bully.:mad5:

I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch he new series on the telly, but he gets me so mad I just can't watch him.:cursing:

Lots of kindness, patience, time and reward is the only way to train a dog.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> Well all I can say is it serves him right, any one who puts a choke chain or any sort of barbaric collar on a dog deserves to get bitten. I have no time for his type of training in fact I think he is cruel and a bully.:mad5:
> 
> I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch he new series on the telly, but he gets me so mad I just can't watch him.:cursing:
> 
> Lots of kindness, patience, time and reward is the only way to train a dog.


*
I used a choke chain on both of my gsd and the collie i used to own and i'd use another one tomorow if i had a large dog.And i'm sorry you think people are bad for using them.Used properly i'd prefer a choke chain to a leather collar.But each to their own.*


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I used a choke chain on both of my gsd and the collie i used to own and i'd use another one tomorow if i had a large dog.And i'm sorry you think people are bad for using them.Used properly i'd prefer a choke chain to a leather collar.But each to their own.*


I do agree with you there. A check/choke chain used correctly is far kinder than a plain collar on a pulling dog.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> choke chain can be very usefull if used correctly by the right people....ur meant to check and release and NOT hang the dog .....


I totally agree that the choke chain was not being used properly here BUT what was he supose to do at that moment in time? The dog was attacking him! He done what he had to do.

Im not a fan of choke chains and would never use one nor am i a fan of haltis etc. I used a long line and a clicker with treats for most of my training and i now have a very obedient 20 month Rottweiler that makes me proud.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I used a choke chain on both of my gsd and the collie i used to own and i'd use another one tomorow if i had a large dog.And i'm sorry you think people are bad for using them.Used properly i'd prefer a choke chain to a leather collar.But each to their own.*





Blitz said:


> I do agree with you there. A check/choke chain used correctly is far kinder than a plain collar on a pulling dog.


I use a nylon check collar on Amber but *only* because she has a long coat and I don't want to rub her fur away or tangle it as a leather one would, I *never *use it tight enough to be used as a check collar. I took her to training as a puppy and have never found the need to use any other type of collar. She is a large dog she weighs 41 kilos and if she wanted to pull I'd have no chance of holding her, but her *training *is still working 9 years after her last lesson.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> Well all I can say is it serves him right, any one who puts a choke chain or any sort of barbaric collar on a dog deserves to get bitten. I have no time for his type of training in fact I think he is cruel and a bully.:mad5:
> 
> I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch he new series on the telly, but he gets me so mad I just can't watch him.:cursing:
> 
> Lots of kindness, patience, time and reward is the only way to train a dog.


Just out of interest..... how many damaged/red zone dogs have you rehabilitated?


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## iibao (Jul 3, 2009)

My lil Babies said:


> I totally agree that the choke chain was not being used properly here BUT what was he supose to do at that moment in time? The dog was attacking him! He done what he had to do.
> 
> Im not a fan of choke chains and would never use one nor am i a fan of haltis etc. I used a long line and a clicker with treats for most of my training and i now have a very obedient 20 month Rottweiler that makes me proud.


He isn't using a choke chain here, but he has used it and properly.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Just out of interest..... how many damaged/red zone dogs have you rehabilitated?


The thing is though, he isnt dealing with "red zone" dogs on his show. He is dealing with everyday household pets, that have had poor training. I dont believe the methods he uses are appropriate for majority of cases.

Sadly people want a quick fix, and revere Cesar as some sort of God and allow him to abuse their dogs, without a though to the animals psychological wellbeing.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I just had a look at some other videos lol (couldnt resist)

He is taking the mickey out of the dogs and then punishes them for it ....

Dog Whisperer | National Geographic Channel

Maybe i just miss something here, but certainly he provokes the dog, in the above video, into this behaviour and then punishes it by choking it (must be his favourite lol) ... i dont see a need in what he is doing at all with this dog and surely a simple leave command would solve the problem too....  
This dog above doesnt need rehabilitation, it needs simple training!

Funnily the dog didnt bother about the tissues showing no dominance at all, but was showing a little bit teeth while there were no tissues in sight (i wonder what they did to that dog to provoke this teeth showing for the camera?) Shows u how the tv is manipulating to show u only what they want u to see....


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

Kinski said:


> Because without his glib talk in the background you can really see what's happening, Milan would make a great talk show host.
> Can any of you that like him please comment on what you think of The Humane Society wanting his programmes pulled .
> 
> Terri


I'm a huge Cesar Millan fan and I can't believe they want his programmes pulled. They won't be pulled. He has reached and celebrated his 100th episode. I don't think the humane society understand why he uses the methods he uses properly. They should cut Cesar some slack.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

danielled said:


> I'm a huge Cesar Millan fan and I can't believe they want his programmes pulled. They won't be pulled. He has reached and celebrated his 100th episode. I don't think the humane society understand why he uses the methods he uses properly. They should cut Cesar some slack.


Your right they won't be pulled, only because they make far to much money for national geographic, I'm sure if they started to lose them money they would be taken of the air.
Terri


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I use a nylon check collar on Amber but *only* because she has a long coat and I don't want to rub her fur away or tangle it as a leather one would, I *never *use it tight enough to be used as a check collar. I took her to training as a puppy and have never found the need to use any other type of collar. She is a large dog she weighs 41 kilos and if she wanted to pull I'd have no chance of holding her, but her *training *is still working 9 years after her last lesson.


but a check chain should never be tight and the dog should never pull if it is used correctly. It is for training the dog, not for choking it.


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## MuddyPuppies (Jun 24, 2009)

What ceaser does is fine. It is good that some of his techniques inflame the dogs. Better they snap at him than some child. Supervised or not kids can be little teases. I think his techniques are still a lot softer than what is practiced in most living rooms in the UK.

As for the choke collar being cruel. I would go one step further and say that a normal collar and lead can be just as cruel if used incorrectly. 
If a dog pulls, it shouldn't be harnessed by the neck.


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## Ty-bo (Jun 27, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Well all I can say is it serves him right, any one who puts a choke chain or any sort of barbaric collar on a dog deserves to get bitten. I have no time for his type of training in fact I think he is cruel and a bully.:mad5:
> 
> I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch he new series on the telly, but he gets me so mad I just can't watch him.:cursing:
> 
> Lots of kindness, patience, time and reward is the only way to train a dog.


Sorry, but I agree with you, he is a bully and like Nonnie says he does provoke dogs into reacting so he can then go on to punnish them whilst the disillusioned owners stand there fawning and telling Ceasar how great he is!!!!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Just out of interest..... how many damaged/red zone dogs have you rehabilitated?


*None* and I never said I had, but the dogs we see on TV are someones pets.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> I just had a look at some other videos lol (couldnt resist)
> 
> He is taking the mickey out of the dogs and then punishes them for it ....
> 
> ...


i agree Natik hes just provoking that spaniel & then choking it!! you can clearly see the dog is trying to spit the tissue out but its stuck in its mouth no wonder the poor thing got so distressed, it was clearly very frightened & bewildered, i would be livid if someone did that to my dog!


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

What this man does to dogs makes me so sick and cross that i can't watch anything he does now


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I used a choke chain on both of my gsd and the collie i used to own and i'd use another one tomorow if i had a large dog.And i'm sorry you think people are bad for using them.Used properly i'd prefer a choke chain to a leather collar.But each to their own.*


I agree janice. We use a halti on Cassie but my parents always used choke chains on there labradors and they were much better


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

claire said:


> I agree janice. We use a halti on Cassie but my parents always used choke chains on there labradors and they were much better


*
I think too many people think that because a choke chain is being used on a dog the dog is automaticly being choked, which is not the case.I've seen loads of dogs with wide thick leather collars and in my oppion thats worse than a choke chain.And yes i did say my oppion,each to their own.*


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Nina said:


> PLEASE DO NOT CLOSE THIS THREAD. I guess I knew it may deteriorate when I started the darn thing, but so far I do feel that feelings have been restrained
> 
> I made a decision not to comment further since circles came into mind  Everyone has their own feelings about Cesar Milan and I am like ColliePower, all for healthy and friendly debate.
> 
> ...


I agree with you there with you totally on that. Cesar has done wonders to promote the reputation of pit bull terriers. Look at how friendly Daddy and Junior are and they are both pit bulls. I love them. They are cute.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I think too many people think that because a choke chain is being used on a dog the dog is automaticly being choked, which is not the case.I've seen loads of dogs with wide thick leather collars and in my oppion thats worse than a choke chain.And yes i did say my oppion,each to their own.*


I used on on my sringer Was shown how to use it properly. When his not working i have him on a half check, him and my lab have slip lead's.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

danielled said:


> I agree with you there with you totally on that. Cesar has done wonders to promote the reputation of pit bull terriers. Look at how friendly Daddy and Junior are and they are both pit bulls. I love them. They are cute.


i do agree with this tho! he has done a lot dispel the aggressive pit bull myth


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Im intrigued though, why, if his pitbulls are such wonderful, stable and rehabiliated creatures, does he insist on using the same dogs over and over again?

Could it be that Daddy is so arthritic and old (not to mention fat), that he is now a calm and docile dog. I havent watched every episode, although i have watched a fair amount. And ive seen him use the same dogs over and over again, especially Daddy. I believe Daddy was a humanely reared pet, and was never used for fighting or encouraged to be aggressive. Maybe thats why he is the kind, calm dog he is now, rather than having been rehabilited by Cesar.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Im intrigued though, why, if his pitbulls are such wonderful, stable and rehabiliated creatures, does he insist on using the same dogs over and over again?
> 
> Could it be that Daddy is so arthritic and old (not to mention fat), that he is now a calm and docile dog. I havent watched every episode, although i have watched a fair amount. And ive seen him use the same dogs over and over again, especially Daddy. I believe Daddy was a humanely reared pet, and was never used for fighting or encouraged to be aggressive. Maybe thats why he is the kind, calm dog he is now, rather than having been rehabilited by Cesar.


*He uses daddy because of his calm nature.Daddy was origanaly sent to cesar to be rehabilitaded(sp) by his then owner a rapper called redman.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *He uses daddy because of his calm nature.Daddy was origanaly sent to cesar to be rehabilitaded(sp) by his then owner a rapper called redman.*


At just 4 months of age. The dog could barely have had many major issues at such a young age. So "rehabilitated" seems a rather useless word on this context.

According to Cesar all his dogs are "calm and submissive" so why does he only use a select few for demonstrations? Could it be that his many retrained dogs are still unpredictable?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

"Since Cesar raised him from four months of age, Daddy was used to being around dogs of all sizes."

he didnt rehabilitate him


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> At just 4 months of age. The dog could barely have had many major issues at such a young age. So "rehabilitated" seems a rather useless word on this context.
> 
> According to Cesar all his dogs are "calm and submissive" so why does he only use a select few for demonstrations? Could it be that his many retrained dogs are still unpredictable?


*I was only answering your question as to why he uses daddy a lot.
As for all his other dogs watch all of his programes and you will get a better insight of his pack.But i appreciate he's not everyones cup of tea or his methods.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I was only answering your question as to why he uses daddy a lot.
> As for all his other dogs watch all of his programes and you will get a better insight of his pack.But i appreciate he's not everyones cup of tea or his methods.*


Ive watched plenty. His pack are pretty much self managed, as most packs of dogs are.

Like "dominant" i think Cesar over uses the word "rehabilitated".

I question the results of his harsh methods.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Ive watched plenty. His pack are pretty much self managed, as most packs of dogs are.
> 
> Like "dominant" i think Cesar over uses the word "rehabilitated".
> 
> I question the results of his harsh methods.


*lol ok we'll agree to disagree.*


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Ty-bo said:


> Sorry, but I agree with you, he is a bully and like Nonnie says he does provoke dogs into reacting so he can then go on to punnish them whilst the disillusioned owners stand there fawning and telling Ceasar how great he is!!!!


and giving him wads of cash.....I don't imagine he works for free on all his cases. Sure some will be done as part of the programme, but you can bet cases he does that don't go on the show, he gets well paid for.
Anyone else noticed how, whenever a dog damages something of his, it was always 'brand new'?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol ok we'll agree to disagree.*


You're blinded by his dazzling charm Janice 

I wonder if so many people would like him if he looked ugly.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> You're blinded by his dazzling charm Janice
> 
> I wonder if so many people would like him if he looked ugly.


*lmao oh so we agree he's handsom then.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmao oh so we agree he's handsom then.*


Lordy no!

He reminds me of a garden gnome.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Lordy no!
> 
> He reminds me of a garden gnome.


:lol::lol::lol:. your in trouble


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Doubtful if he's as good as he proffesses to be


He is very good in my opinion but he can do nothing wrong in my eyes.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Lordy no!
> 
> He reminds me of a garden gnome.


*pmsl OUCH! *


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Natik said:


> janice, i dont hate him and i dont love him.....
> 
> And to the why the answer is viewers numbers rule if a programm continues and of course keeps the money coming in  And nobody would watch something which involves time, effort and no dramatic and nail biting scenes


Calm down. Take a few deep breaths. Your entitled to your opinion but calm down. We don't want this thread closed. I don't want it closed anyway.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Lordy no!
> 
> He reminds me of a garden gnome.


:lol::lol::lol: We certainly agree on that


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

danielled said:


> Calm down. Take a few deep breaths. Your entitled to your opinion but calm down. We don't want this thread closed. I don't want it closed anyway.


..... huh


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Natik said:


> ..... huh


Let me explain. A forum has had to be closed due to problems with people bullying other people for having a different opinion. I don't want the same thing to happen here to. Trust me.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> Let me explain. A forum has had to be closed due to problems with people bullying other people for having a different opinion. I don't want the same thing to happen here to. Trust me.


Natic's not bullying you


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

danielled said:


> Let me explain. A forum has had to be closed due to problems with people bullying other people for having a different opinion. I don't want the same thing to happen here to. Trust me.


Natik wasnt bullying she was stating what she thought! witch she can do!!
You must be reading something different too me  LOL


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

danielled said:


> Let me explain. A forum has had to be closed due to problems with people bullying other people for having a different opinion. I don't want the same thing to happen here to. Trust me.


Thanks for explaining....we will try make sure that this doesnt happen


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## Ty-bo (Jun 27, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> and giving him wads of cash.....I don't imagine he works for free on all his cases. Sure some will be done as part of the programme, but you can bet cases he does that don't go on the show, he gets well paid for.
> Anyone else noticed how, whenever a dog damages something of his, it was always 'brand new'?


Yes, good point and when the 'starstruck' owners arent throwing their cash at him the tv company are bound to be-all the more incentive for him to abuse the dogs!

Just for the record, my wife thinks he looks like the back end of a pig too and wonders how much he pays to have such a neatly groomed goatie???


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

christine c said:


> Natic's not bullying you


I know I just want a friendly discussion that's all.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Natik said:


> Thanks for explaining....we will try make sure that this doesnt happen


You understand I'm just trying to protect you all don't you? Thankyou for understanding and I didn't mean to confuse you. Sorry about that confusion.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> I know I just want a friendly discussion that's all.


Oh that's good i'd hate for to get upset today, i understand what your saying about thread being closed though


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

christine c said:


> Oh that's good i'd hate for to get upset today, i understand what your saying about thread being closed though


I'm glad you understand. Tell you what. Go into the rainbow bridge section and click on my thread called my 3 year old cat Toby died. We can talk there too.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Just watched the video and it doesn't look lile a choke chain to me. When the dog's on the floor you can see the underside, just looks like a normal collar, nto a chain in sight. I know he does have a collar that has two collars on it - one at either end of the neck so the lead stays high on the neck.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Just watched the video and it doesn't look lile a choke chain to me. When the dog's on the floor you can see the underside, just looks like a normal collar, nto a chain in sight. I know he does have a collar that has two collars on it - one at either end of the neck so the lead stays high on the neck.


Your right it doesn't look like a choke chain does it?


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Do you know what I find most disturbing out this is that this is considered entertainment. 

I have no doubt that this was not Ceasar's first meeting with this dog, tv programmes aren't made that way (I know of someone who was filmed for Victoria Stilwell's tv show and I know the trainers that she goes to and the tv company wanted to film there).


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Do you know what I find most disturbing out this is that this is considered entertainment.
> 
> I have no doubt that this was not Ceasar's first meeting with this dog, tv programmes aren't made that way (I know of someone who was filmed for Victoria Stilwell's tv show and I know the trainers that she goes to and the tv company wanted to film there).


Your definitely right. I've read the first book and sometimes he walks a dog for miles before attempting anything to establish his leadership. i think the fact that he never shows how he establishes leadership is the programs shortcoming. I haven't seen them all by a long way, but my observation has been that having put himself into a position of leadership he simply tells the dog not to do it by a check or tap and the dog goes "ok" and stops. A lot of people seem to think you just do the tapping and checking and make the stupid noise and it works. There was an idiot at ringcraft a year or so back who insisted on doing this to the point of never giving instructions. His ridgeback was playing up to a friend's dozing ddb, but he still insisted on going through the Milan routine complete with noises to the bemused ddb while we stood around cringing with embarassment wanting to eat our fists.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

danielled said:


> Your right it doesn't look like a choke chain does it?


I'm not sure why its assumed its a choke especially as this thread is largely about it. I've seen dogs strung up by narrow choke show leads and they look a lot worse off than that one.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Well imo that dog is gasping for breath! So no matter what lead was used, it was used in-correctly!
In that clip i dont agree with what was done, Strangling a dog to submission is not my way of training a dog!


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Well imo that dog is gasping for breath! So no matter what lead was used, it was used in-correctly!
> In that clip i dont agree with what was done, Strangling a dog to submission is not my way of training a dog!


Strangleing the dog? Cesar wouldn't do that but he can do nothing wrong in my eyes. That's only my opinion though.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Is that a wolf mix? Or one of the inuit or whatever breeds. Has he even got a choke on the dog is it not just the end of the lead? He did well to get it down like that even if we probably didn't see some of it. I'm not a fan of the man don't like most of his methods but some of the dogs he works with well he seems to work miracles with dogs that otherwise would be put down.


I think Shadow was a husky but I can't remember.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

danielled said:


> Strangleing the dog? Cesar wouldn't do that but he can do nothing wrong in my eyes. That's only my opinion though.


Yes in my eyes that dog is being strangled! The dog then gives up fighting back because it has no choice it then lays on the floor struggling to breath!!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I was going to watch it again but the clip won't play now 

I wasn't sure whether he was holding it off to stop it biting until it went on all fours before trying again or whether he kept it in the air all the time. in the case of the former I would say the dog was strangling itself and in the latter he was strangling the dog. Can't get it to play though.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Ty-bo said:


> Sorry, but I agree with you, he is a bully and like Nonnie says he does provoke dogs into reacting so he can then go on to punnish them whilst the disillusioned owners stand there fawning and telling Ceasar how great he is!!!!


You think he is a bully? Why? He loves dogs. In my opinion I don't think he provokes dogs. That's only my opinion though.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> I was going to watch it again but the clip won't play now
> 
> I wasn't sure whether he was holding it off to stop it biting until it went on all fours before trying again or whether he kept it in the air all the time. in the case of the former I would say the dog was strangling itself and in the latter he was strangling the dog. Can't get it to play though.


From what i can see cesar is pulling the lead higher up.

But imo if he hadnt tap the dog from behind the dog wouldnt have kicked off!!

I honestly belive he does some of these things to look good on TV 
Just my views though


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

He definitly strangles that dog by pulling the lead that high that the dogs front legs have no contact with the ground... of course the dog will fight for survival in this situation without any understanding whats just happening to it and why!

...also the dog clearly gasps for air and is definitly not panting from exhaustion...there is a clear difference in those two things!!! If u watch ur dog panting after a run and watch this dog gasping for air u will see the clear difference urself !!!


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Natik said:


> He definitly strangles that dog by pulling the lead that high that the dogs front legs have no contact with the ground... of course the dog will fight for survival in this situation without any understanding whats just happening to it and why!
> 
> ...also the dog clearly gasps for air and is definitly not panting from exhaustion...there is a clear difference in those two things!!! If u watch ur dog panting after a run and watch this dog gasping for air u will see the clear difference urself !!!


Great post! rep for you!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*For the life of me i cannot see what some people are accusing him off. and people say the newspapers make up stories.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *For the life of me i cannot see what some people are accusing him off. and people say the newspapers make up stories.*


Janice...u might have to take ur eyes off cesar :001_wub: and look at the dog lol


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

We all know you love cesar but come on look at that dog  I find it awful to watch that video and if i was that dogs owner i would take a swing for cesar



JANICE199 said:


> *For the life of me i cannot see what some people are accusing him off. and people say the newspapers make up stories.*


Dont no about everyone else but i am accusing him of, strangling a dog to the fact the dog backs down and is laid on the floor stuggling to breath..All because the dog lashed out because cesar was that stupied to touch the dog from behind!!

I dont think this is anyway to treat a dog let alone train it..If i did that to one of my dogs witch i never would..Im sure they would be petrified of wearing a lead ever again and do you know what i wouldnt blame them!


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

Mmmmm,
I was wondering if any of us treated a dog in the way he does,how long would it take the relevant authorities to prosecute ?

I will say it again training a dog through dominant outdated methods,(dominance seems to be his favourite word), and fear will make a dog shut down and become unpredictable.

An unpredictable dog is a dangerous dog.

Myself I much prefer the training methods of Dr Ian Dunbar.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *For the life of me i cannot see what some people are accusing him off. and people say the newspapers make up stories.*


Can you honestly not see what he's doing to that poor dog . His methods of training went out with the likes of Barbara Woodhouse.

Terri


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## *WillsTillsBills* (May 12, 2009)

hmmmm.... I have to say I love Cesar, although I don't take on his methods, myself and oh have found a happy medium when training our pups. I do believe that you need to be very calm when training with your dog, that shouting at your dog just excites them are can make them more aggressive towards you. I just really don't think he was trying to hurt this dog? thats my opinion... I don't condone abusing any animals, I definately wouldn't watch it if thats what I thought he was doing. Pleeeease don't get angry now


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Mmmmm,
> I was wondering if any of us treated a dog in the way he does,how long would it take the relevant authorities to prosecute ?
> 
> I will say it again training a dog through dominant outdated methods,(dominance seems to be his favourite word), and fear will make a dog shut down and become unpredictable.
> ...


Here here


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2009)

iibao said:


> He isn't using a choke chain here, but he has used it and properly.


Just watched it again and No it isnt a choke chain. It looks like a slip lead. And a slip lead shuldnt be used in that way either.

whether hes used a choke chain correctly before or not, I still dont like them. They really are not needed. I havent been to one training class yet that allows anything other than a flat collar and lead for training. Plus clickers and treats. This method may take a little longer than correcting with a check, but positive reinforcement IMO is the best way to go.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

Natik said:


> Thanks for explaining....we will try make sure that this doesnt happen


I just thought you should know that's why I told you about the forum. I was the one being bullied too but I have had no problems since that thread on the forum was closed. Thanks for listening and letting me explain. Remember be careful. I don't want anybody to get in trouble or have trouble on here. After all it's meant to be a nice friendly place. It's doing well so far so lets keep it running nice and friendly. Who agrees with me.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

Kinski said:


> Can you honestly not see what he's doing to that poor dog . His methods of training went out with the likes of Barbara Woodhouse.
> 
> Terri


I can't see what he is doing to the dog. All I can see is him helping the dog and not hurting him.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I still think he is cruel and a bully.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*And i still think he works wonders.But as i've said time and time again each to their own.This debate about cesar will end the same EVERYTIME, you either like him or you don't.:nonod:*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

would any of you really allow Ceasar to do that to your dogs


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

I think his methods are outdated and try to watch all his videos with the sound off because often you get drawn into what is being said, or the way it is said, over what is happening. With the sound off all I see is a very stressed unhappy dog. 
But as I always say we cant say what happens off the camera, whether this is good or bad I cannot say but it makes a balanced judgement of his techniques very difficult.

I agree with his ideas around exercise, calmess etc but as for his direct actions towards the dogs I cannot condone what I see, and wouldnt let him anywhere near my dog.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> would any of you really allow Ceasar to do that to your dogs


I for sure wouldnt! and if he ever did that to one of my dogs i would have took that lead and strangled the man with it!

People might think hes a nice guy but to watch that video and say that is the way to train a dog in my eyes in mad! ut:


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

If anyone handled a dog of mine like that I would kick them straight in the love button


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Nicci said:


> If anyone handled a dog of mine like that I would kick them straight in the love button


He he LOL


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

Seriously though if I had to watch someone trying to gain control of a dog of mine in that way, I think the most sensible thing would be to say, now it's your turn. My husband has just watched the film and he's just said would he want 50/50 or phone a friend, he'd want to do the same to them he's just said


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

If he so much as looked at my dogs he would be strung up and then pinned to the ground, there is something about him that really gives me the creeps.

Terri


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

My lil Babies said:


> Just watched it again and No it isnt a choke chain. It looks like a slip lead. And a slip lead shuldnt be used in that way either.
> 
> whether hes used a choke chain correctly before or not, I still dont like them. They really are not needed. I havent been to one training class yet that allows anything other than a flat collar and lead for training. Plus clickers and treats. This method may take a little longer than correcting with a check, but positive reinforcement IMO is the best way to go.


I wouldnt go to a training class that had those methods. I dont see the point in clicker training and I see a lot of point in a well used check chain or slip lead. I dont like training with treats either and neither do my dogs. I think dogs, like children, need showing clearly what is wanted and praising when they do it and correcting when they dont. And correction can be as little as a raised eyebrow or as much as a smack for a child or correction with check chain for a dog depending on the temperament. And that is where people go wrong in my opinion, they stick to the same methods for every dog.

As for that video, well once he had made the mistake of booting it and setting it off he didnt have a lot of choice but to carry on as he did or get bitten. We havent seen what happened before he booted it so we dont know if it was attacking all the time and he needed to set it off to see what would stop it. I dont particularly like what he was doing but it could be essential for that dog, we dont know though because we werent there at the start. I dont like his methods on the whole though so would tend to feel that it was inappropriate.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Kinski said:


> If he so much as looked at my dogs he would be strung up and then pinned to the ground, there is something about him that really gives me the creeps.
> 
> Terri


If I were there you wouldn't be able to pin him to the ground. You would have to pin me to the ground first haha. I'm obsessed with Cesar.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> If I were there you wouldn't be able to pin him to the ground. You would have to pin me to the ground first haha. I'm obsessed with Cesar.


Hehe that made me laugh


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## princessx87 (Feb 26, 2009)

Nicci said:


> He'd have probably done much better keeping the dog on a shorter lead, possibly with a head halti, there was no need to resort to the measures he had to gain control of the dog in my opinion he was just using the wrong equipment.


Yes he did need to resort to these measures, as at the beginning of all his programmes he uses, what the owners do, again this is showing us, how the dog was able to get away with that in the first place!

Just think of the end result, is someone else was holding that dog, how many times would they have been able to hold on and keep the dog at bay..?


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## nerd of prey (Jun 5, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I wouldnt go to a training class that had those methods. I dont see the point in clicker training and I see a lot of point in a well used check chain or slip lead. I dont like training with treats either and neither do my dogs. I think dogs, like children, need showing clearly what is wanted and praising when they do it and correcting when they dont. And correction can be as little as a raised eyebrow or as much as a smack for a child or correction with check chain for a dog depending on the temperament. And that is where people go wrong in my opinion, they stick to the same methods for every dog.
> 
> As for that video, well once he had made the mistake of booting it and setting it off he didnt have a lot of choice but to carry on as he did or get bitten. We havent seen what happened before he booted it so we dont know if it was attacking all the time and he needed to set it off to see what would stop it. I dont particularly like what he was doing but it could be essential for that dog, we dont know though because we werent there at the start. I dont like his methods on the whole though so would tend to feel that it was inappropriate.


Surely he would have to provoke the dog at some point otherwise he could not correct the behaviour so I don't see the problem with this. Watching the video I see nothing wrong with what Cesar is doing, it is a big dog and Cesar seems to be restraining him rather than allowing the dog to bite. There are probably other ways to achieve this but once that dog was on the attack some kind of physical restraint was required. I also don't think the dog looked strangled at all and it was only panting because it had just launched a high energy attack. The obvious solution would be to train the dog properly when it was young so these kind of behaviours cannot develop but this isn't always possible e.g. with rescue dogs. I have no problem with the dog whisperer as a program but I can see why people would as the trend is more towards positive reinforcement than negative nowadays.


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## princessx87 (Feb 26, 2009)

nerd of prey said:


> Surely he would have to provoke the dog at some point otherwise he could not correct the behaviour so I don't see the problem with this. Watching the video I see nothing wrong with what Cesar is doing, it is a big dog and Cesar seems to be restraining him rather than allowing the dog to bite. There are probably other ways to achieve this but once that dog was on the attack some kind of physical restraint was required. I also don't think the dog looked strangled at all and it was only panting because it had just launched a high energy attack. The obvious solution would be to train the dog properly when it was young so these kind of behaviours cannot develop but this isn't always possible e.g. with rescue dogs. I have no problem with the dog whisperer as a program but I can see why people would as the trend is more towards positive reinforcement than negative nowadays.


I totally agree with you!
Its not just these bug dogs that can bite too though.
There is another C-M-D-W, show where the woman had scars all over her hands where her pom attacked her is she was going to place food, Walks ect..

Another one:-

A woman has some small dog (Think it might have been a pug ut: )
She allowed her dog to bite her son, rather dealing with the dog in hand!
Cm held the dog to the floor again and it made these loud nosies like it was being hurt...!

But i tend to agree with CM i would rather my dog make 5 mins or noise then rushing my child to AE for dog bite!!!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

princessx87 said:


> Yes he did need to resort to these measures, as at the beginning of all his programmes he uses, what the owners do, again this is showing us, how the dog was able to get away with that in the first place!
> 
> Just think of the end result, is someone else was holding that dog, how many times would they have been able to hold on and keep the dog at bay..?


I'm sorry I don't agree, I've owned some dogs that have been double my bodywieght for almost 18 years, and never once had to resort to those tactics.
I'm not a lover of Ceaser Millan, but then again I have no opinion of him, can't bare him, don't have time for him and never will.

I've owned aggressive dogs, again, never once had to resort to those tactics, I don't agree with pinning dogs down to the point they are beat into submission and I certainly don't agree with someone strangling the hell out of a dog because someone has done something to provoke it into behaving that way. In my opinion CM deserved to get bitten and scratched a lot worse than what he actually did.
I can actually see him killing someones dog with the methods he uses, which will provide someone with a nice big fat lawsuit.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nicci said:


> I'm sorry I don't agree, I've owned some dogs that have been double my bodywieght for almost 18 years, and never once had to resort to those tactics.
> I'm not a lover of Ceaser Millan, but then again I have no opinion of him, can't bare him, don't have time for him and never will.
> 
> I've owned aggressive dogs, again, never once had to resort to those tactics, I don't agree with pinning dogs down to the point they are beat into submission and I certainly don't agree with someone strangling the hell out of a dog because someone has done something to provoke it into behaving that way. In my opinion CM deserved to get bitten and scratched a lot worse than what he actually did.
> I can actually see him killing someones dog with the methods he uses, which will provide someone with a nice big fat lawsuit.


Just out of interest.... how would you deal with a dog who was trying to attack you? Forget the bit that proceeded it and whether he provoked it. But how would you deal with a dog that wanted to bite you?


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Just out of interest.... how would you deal with a dog who was trying to attack you? Forget the bit that proceeded it and whether he provoked it. But how would you deal with a dog that wanted to bite you?


My answer to that because I have done it, is simply a situation where I've clipped the lead onto their collar and removed them from the situation in a calm, controlled, peaceful manner, doing my utmost best to hold on to my temper and sanity in light of whatever circumstances. I've never pinned any of my dogs, never strangled them with their own lead and collar - just calmly removed lead them out of that situation to calm down after whatever circumstances.
My husband had been bitten numerous times by one of our dogs that is now at the bridge and I've learned through all the years of owning large powerful breeds to fight fire with fire certainly don't help the dog or yourself as an owner. Some larger dominant breeds certainly become de-sensitised to situations where you as an owner use what I see as punishment as a correction (ie, pinning, strangling a dog to the point of submission) and once that happens, not only do you loose the trust and loyalty of your dog you will also have an unruly one (because of what you have allowed yourself to do to it) you could also have a very dangerous one on the other end of the lead, some breeds are not that forgiving and certainly don't forget.
I can honestly say, hand on my heart, I've owned a problem dog, never once was she tapped, smacked, choked off with her lead and collar and she was never pinned down to correct behaviour we did not want, I learned with her as dog owner to know her body language and put a stop to situations before they started. 
Now my own problem dog was seen many times by animal behaviorists due to aggression issues, one even suggested using a pinch and prong collar on her, others simply lost the will to live with her until we eventually found someone to work with her and all her issues, someone who totally understood and dealt with my dog with the utmost respect and compassion and should I ever have a problem again, I wouldn't hesitate in calling him in again, he worked wonders with her - something I honestly thought we would never see, everyone we dealt with until we met this man and I don't mind name dropping (Les Price) insisted that our dog shoud be put to sleep.
She sadly lost her battle with cancer and is now at the bridge - her life and ours was completely turned around and I'm glad and relieved to say she lived out her last few years as a happy, calm, confident dog.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

The thing with that clip is that Milan wasn't ''correcting'' the dog for the behaviour the owner called him in for, he was correcting it for lunging at him after he tapped/kicked/jabbed or whatever you want to call it, so really he's not helping the dog get over the original problem ( don't think he was helping the poor lad at all ). What he might have done is give the dog more problems by making the dog wary of people walking him, he might just be wondering if the person that's holding him is going to do what that bully did to him for no reason.

Terri


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Just out of interest.... how would you deal with a dog who was trying to attack you? Forget the bit that proceeded it and whether he provoked it. But how would you deal with a dog that wanted to bite you?


first of all, if i would have an aggressive dog which is likly to go for people or even other dogs i would have him muzzled while out or would limit its excersise to the garden before the issue would be assessed and be dealt with appropriate with an knowledgeable person.

Then i would ensure i dont provoke him being even more nervous and aggressive than he already is by putting him in situations he feels threatend and then frighten him by tapping his behind while he is already under stress.

Also inflicting pain on the dog (in this case strangleing) can only make him more aggressive, as he will identify u as the source of his pain, so certainly i would avoid doing this.

Point is, he is a so called professional which should be able to read and understand dog behaviour and he should have known not to tap this dog on its behind in first place. Im no professional, but my common sense tells me that this would make the dog worse.....


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Just out of interest.... how would you deal with a dog who was trying to attack you? Forget the bit that proceeded it and whether he provoked it. But how would you deal with a dog that wanted to bite you?


When I was a kid there was a dog that we had to pass to get to school. It used to run out of the garden and try to bite any children that went by. I think it liked all the screaming, running and panic it caused . One day it ran out at me and nipped my bum. Instead of running I turned round and smacked it on the nose. It looked very shocked and ran back into its garden. It never chased me again but I think it still barked at other kids! (By the way - there were very few "responsible" owners where I used to live )
I was only young and would not recommend this method but I think I acted on instinct.


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## princessx87 (Feb 26, 2009)

I think Cesar Milan is good at what he does.
And i have to ask myself, If he does cause injury to animals, then why aint there been a law suit before now?
Why aint local rescues making a complaint?
Why is he still able to trade?

Most people don't agree with his way of getting control of a dog,
But he doesn't hurt them or even cause long-term injury to any animal.

I can remember when we got our staffy, the man everyone told me to see used all his ways of training.
Never one was a dog "pinned" the dog was held to the ground to stop aggesstion.

My boy must of loved it now, because when i go to stop his behaviour he lays on the ground legs in the air, wanting a belly rub for being naughty.! lol

My question is, 
If he is so mean to animals, and they are so frightened of them, why does daddy and all of the other dogs he has are so loving towards him??


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

princessx87 said:


> I think Cesar Milan is good at what he does.
> And i have to ask myself, If he does cause injury to animals, then why aint there been a law suit before now?
> Why aint local rescues making a complaint?
> Why is he still able to trade?
> ...


Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

princessx87 said:


> I think Cesar Milan is good at what he does.
> And i have to ask myself, If he does cause injury to animals, then why aint there been a law suit before now?
> Why aint local rescues making a complaint?
> Why is he still able to trade?
> ...


I found this:

"LOS ANGELES (AP)  A television producer is suing dog trainer Cesar Millan, star of TV's The Dog Whisperer, claiming that his Labrador retriever was injured at Millan's training facility after being suffocated by a choke collar and forced to run on a treadmill. 
In a lawsuit filed Thursday in Superior Court, 8 Simple Rules producer Flody Suarez says he took 5-year-old Gator to the Dog Psychology Center on Feb. 27 to deal with fears of other dogs and strangers.

Hours after dropping the dog off at the facility, Suarez claimed a worker called to inform him the animal had been rushed to a veterinarian. He later found the dog "bleeding from his mouth and nose, in an oxygen tent gasping for breath and with severe bruising to his back inner thighs," the lawsuit claims.

The facility's workers allegedly placed a choke collar on the dog, pulled him onto a treadmill and forced him to "overwork." Suarez says he spent at least $25,000 on medical bills and the dog must undergo more surgeries for damage to his esophagus.

A call to the Dog Psychology Center, also named as a defendant, was not immediately returned. A spokesman for National Geographic Channel, which airs Millan's show, declined comment.

"As of this time, the National Geographic Channel has not been served with either lawsuit, and we do not comment on pending litigation," said Russell Howard, the channel's vice president of communications.

The complaint claims breach of contract, fraud, animal cruelty and intentional infliction of emotional distress, among other allegations. It seeks more than $25,000 in damages."

'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan sued by TV producer - USATODAY.com


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Natik said:


> I found this:
> 
> "LOS ANGELES (AP) - A television producer is suing dog trainer Cesar Millan, star of TV's The Dog Whisperer, claiming that his Labrador retriever was injured at Millan's training facility after being suffocated by a choke collar and forced to run on a treadmill.
> In a lawsuit filed Thursday in Superior Court, 8 Simple Rules producer Flody Suarez says he took 5-year-old Gator to the Dog Psychology Center on Feb. 27 to deal with fears of other dogs and strangers.
> ...


I was just reading that when looking for lawsuits filed against him


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> Hehe that made me laugh


My comment made me laugh too but I wouldn't let anybody hurt Cesar. My dogs Chance and Dixie say woof woof which means hello in dog language. I like to have a laugh with people.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> My comment made me laugh too but I wouldn't let anybody hurt Cesar. My dogs Chance and Dixie say woof woof which means hello in dog language. I like to have a laugh with people.


haha tell them i said hello back


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Natik said:


> I found this:
> 
> "LOS ANGELES (AP)  A television producer is suing dog trainer Cesar Millan, star of TV's The Dog Whisperer, claiming that his Labrador retriever was injured at Millan's training facility after being suffocated by a choke collar and forced to run on a treadmill.
> In a lawsuit filed Thursday in Superior Court, 8 Simple Rules producer Flody Suarez says he took 5-year-old Gator to the Dog Psychology Center on Feb. 27 to deal with fears of other dogs and strangers.
> ...


Wasn't that a long time ago, and nothing came of it?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> Wasn't that a long time ago, and nothing came of it?


it was 2007 so it says on the link.... its just what i found online


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

rona said:


> Wasn't that a long time ago, and nothing came of it?


I read somewhere that it was settled out of court and that nothing was being disclosed about the settlement.

Terri


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Kinski said:


> I read somewhere that it was settled out of court and that nothing was being disclosed about the settlement.
> 
> Terri


rona is right. This happened a while back and I believe that the case involved a member of Cesar's team.

This thread has emphasised one thing. You either love Cesar Milan or you hate him, and no amount of debate will change a persons mind that views him as being cruel.

Yes, he is controversial and probably always will be, if forums are to be believed. Yes, he continues to make a bucket load of money  But, let us not forget his passion for helping rescue centres and highlighting animal welfare.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nina said:


> rona is right. This happened a while back and I believe that the case involved a member of Cesar's team.
> 
> This thread has emphasised one thing. You either love Cesar Milan or you hate him, and no amount of debate will change a persons mind that views him as being cruel.
> 
> Yes, he is controversial and probably always will be, if forums are to be believed. Yes, he continues to make a bucket load of money  But, let us not forget his passion for helping rescue centres and highlighting animal welfare.


Excellent post Nina and very balanced. He does do a lot of good for rescue centres and educating people on the importance of exercising their dog and providing clear leadership. I understand why people look at clips and see it as cruel, but if he got "shut" down tomorrow, how would that help?

I have repped you for this! x


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

goodvic2 said:


> Excellent post Nina and very balanced. He does do a lot of good for rescue centres and educating people on the importance of exercising their dog and providing clear leadership. I understand why people look at clips and see it as cruel, but if he got "shut" down tomorrow, how would that help?
> 
> I have repped you for this! x


Thank you, just trying to be practical.

I watched a wonderful episode where Cesar took in orphaned dogs caught up in hurricane Katrina. He regularly visits prisons who participate in rehabilitating dogs and those who train as utility dogs for people with disabilities.

It's a shame that people are so eager to see the worst in people, rather than the good they do x


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Nicci said:


> I was just reading that when looking for lawsuits filed against him


Read that sometime back! Think I have posted it on te forum before, seems they settled out of court!
DT


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> This thread has emphasised one thing. You either love Cesar Milan or you hate him, and no amount of debate will change a persons mind that views him as being cruel.
> .


i dont think this is about u either love him or hate him ....i dont love and i neither do hate him. Its not about him as a person... 
I simply disagree with his way of provoking and then punishing this poor dogs in a very unnecessary way using training equipment wrong and claming all the issues are down to dominance (where i seen so often that its a case of the dog never being walked and then suddenly reacting with aggression towards other dogs, where its simply fear due to lack of socialization) .....


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Instead of listening to Cesar as he talks the good talk about his love for dogs etc., try watching the dogs body language when they are interacting with him. They are often SCARED! Tucked tails, slinking bodies that are close to the floor, lip licking, whale eyes (where you can see the whites). These are all signs of fearful dogs IMO of course


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Okay I have watched this vid again and does anyone else notice the colour of that poor dogs tongue when it is slammed onto the road??? I see it being Blue!!


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Nina, you are absolutly right that so much of the problems are about lack of exercise! There is a mistake here however you would know if you watched the show (and can be verified by looking at the Dog Whisperer Season 1-3 Episode Guide at any bookstore) That Cesar addresses many times of problems including fear, including agression (which is different from dominance you are right on that too). What you see on the show are extreme problem dogs that have different solution reactions he applies and explains, he has very different techniques for "good dogs" that one can learn from his Leadership DVDs.



Natik said:


> i dont think this is about u either love him or hate him ....i dont love and i neither do hate him. Its not about him as a person...
> I simply disagree with his way of provoking and then punishing this poor dogs in a very unnecessary way using training equipment wrong and claming all the issues are down to dominance (where i seen so often that its a case of the dog never being walked and then suddenly reacting with aggression towards other dogs, where its simply fear due to lack of socialization) .....


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi, 
Many dogs have a blue tongue. I am not sure which episode you are referring to. Making a dog stop his agression is not slamming him and there is no documentation from any vet, any clinic or hospital that shows that any dog has been harmed by Cesar Millan.

If my dog wants to run into the street to get a squirrel, and I have to hold him to where he starts coughing, am I choking him? The moment he stops pulling and sits down, he stops coughing.



clueless said:


> Okay I have watched this vid again and does anyone else notice the colour of that poor dogs tongue when it is slammed onto the road??? I see it being Blue!!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

CJAnderson said:


> Hi,
> Many dogs have a blue tongue. I am not sure which episode you are referring to. Making a dog stop his agression is not slamming him and there is no documentation from any vet, any clinic or hospital that shows that any dog has been harmed by Cesar Millan.
> 
> If my dog wants to run into the street to get a squirrel, and I have to hold him to where he starts coughing, am I choking him? The moment he stops pulling and sits down, he stops coughing.


Emmm I am referring to the Vid that this thread started with!! The dog is not a breed that has a Blue tongue and it is not blue at the end of Vid after it has been lying panting on the ground


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> Okay I have watched this vid again and does anyone else notice the colour of that poor dogs tongue when it is slammed onto the road??? I see it being Blue!!


OMG youre right Lynda!! just as it hits the road you can clearly see its tongue is blue!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

CJAnderson said:


> Hi Nina, you are absolutly right that so much of the problems are about lack of exercise! There is a mistake here however you would know if you watched the show (and can be verified by looking at the Dog Whisperer Season 1-3 Episode Guide at any bookstore) That Cesar addresses many times of problems including fear, including agression (which is different from dominance you are right on that too). What you see on the show are extreme problem dogs that have different solution reactions he applies and explains, he has very different techniques for "good dogs" that one can learn from his Leadership DVDs.


i gueass u were referring to me and not nina as u quoted my post 

What u see on the show are pet dogs not being trained and unsozialized due to laziness. Pet dogs which just need guidance and some rules and training in their lifes and not being hanged until they loose their will to live ....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Emmm I am referring to the Vid that this thread started with!! The dog is not a breed that has a Blue tongue and it is not blue at the end of Vid after it has been lying panting on the ground


this made me feel sick inside and those are those "little" things people oversee......


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> OMG youre right Lynda!! just as it hits the road you can clearly see its tongue is blue!!


Yeah IO watched it 3 times in a row and that tongue is defo Blue Poor Dog


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

clueless said:


> Yeah IO watched it 3 times in a row and that tongue is defo Blue Poor Dog


omg lynda, you are so right it is!!  
Oh and for the person that said dogs can have normal blue tounges, look at the begining the dog does not have a blue tounge!!!!
and i agree that most of the dogs are scared of him! and i belive some of his methods only work through the fear the dog has of him! Like i said in earlier posts 
You know i hate watching that video and the more i watch it the more i dis like this man!!
Dog trainer my back side!!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Kez If you hated watching that video Try watching the one on this link Ask Why? Say NO! to Punitive Dog Training, Whispering and Outdated Behaviour Therapy Its near the bottom from Komonews


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## iibao (Jul 3, 2009)

Well most people to agree putting down dogs like that.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Kez If you hated watching that video Try watching the one on this link Ask Why? Say NO! to Punitive Dog Training, Whispering and Outdated Behaviour Therapy Its near the bottom from Komonews


OMG there was the dog where they forced that scarred to death cat into its face  And then punished the dog for it ::nonod: I feel very very upset and disgusted that people agree with those techniques :crying: :nonod:

This guy is a lair as well....its not an opinion that he strungles them....its a FACT!!!!

Heres the link for those who cant find the vid 
KOMO News - Video - Video - Are the Dog Whisperer's methods harmful?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

The more i see of this man the more i hate the way he thinks it right to train dogs through fear because that is what hes doing and anyone that think differently is clearly watching something else!!
They hit the nail on the head "These methods are ok for the short term" Thats all cesar needs is for it to work on TV then thats it he doesnt really care what happens after he leaves!

I can honestly say this man would never lay a finger on my dogs..

His training methods are not positive and in no way helping the dog imo.

I watched the one on TV where he used the E collar and had watched many of his series before but after i saw that one i stopped watching him!! If im truely honest i have no respect for the guy!!!

There are plently of other trainers out there that are willing to put there time,love and postive training methods into dogs that need it! Shame i feel i cant say the same about cesar..These other trainers wont ever get a chance just because they havent got the publicity that Cesar has!


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## clayrelouise (Jul 15, 2009)

I absolutley LOVE Cesar Milan, i have dog whisperer set to series link on my v+ box and never miss an episode!!

I think he is amazing...i think his techniques are great and the way that he communicates with dogs is just mesmorizing! 
He always says that it is not the dogs fault but the owners fault which is so true when you actually sit and think about it....most of the problems that the owners on his show come to him for are caused by lack of exercise which is such a shame...
Animals dont think like us, they live in their own little bubble and take every day as it comes!..its a shame we cant be more like them in some ways!

I think Cesar is fantastic and cant understand why people wouldnt like him? I have never seen him harm or blame a dog for anything..?
Maybe i have missed something?

At the end of the day everyone has different opinions and techniques when raising dogs the same as they do children.
What works for one person may not work for another.

But in my opinion Cesar Milan gets a HUGE thumbs up!!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*As cesar said in that video clip, some will agree with his methods and some won't.I stil think the good he does outways any bad rep he might have.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

does anyone ever think what happens to a dog if it "kicks off" one day in the future most likely because of the way it has been treated by cesar? Do u think he will be made responsible by its owner? (i very so doubt it !!!) 
No, it will be the dogs fault with its "dominance issues" probably being pts anyway!!!!! But trust me!!!...U wont see and hear any of that on his show !!!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> does anyone ever think what happens to a dog if it "kicks off" one day in the future most likely because of the way it has been treated by cesar? Do u think he will be made responsible by its owner? (i very so doubt it !!!)
> No, it will be the dogs fault with its "dominance issues" probably being pts anyway!!!!! But trust me!!!...U wont see and hear any of that on his show !!!!


What would you like to see happen with CM? Serious question :wink5:


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Natik said:


> does anyone ever think what happens to a dog if it "kicks off" one day in the future most likely because of the way it has been treated by cesar? Do u think he will be made responsible by its owner? (i very so doubt it !!!)
> No, it will be the dogs fault with its "dominance issues" probably being pts anyway!!!!! But trust me!!!...U wont see and hear any of that on his show !!!!


Agreed!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> What would you like to see happen with CM? Serious question :wink5:


His show should be taken off the screens and he should get a banned from handling dogs! ....


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

clayrelouise said:


> I absolutley LOVE Cesar Milan, i have dog whisperer set to series link on my v+ box and never miss an episode!!
> 
> I think he is amazing...i think his techniques are great and the way that he communicates with dogs is just mesmorizing!
> He always says that it is not the dogs fault but the owners fault which is so true when you actually sit and think about it....most of the problems that the owners on his show come to him for are caused by lack of exercise which is such a shame...
> ...


He does not communicate with dogs, he bullies and terrorises them.
In no way was he the first trainer ( I use that word very loosely when referring to him ) to blame people for their dogs behaviour, or to say that dogs need exercise.
Did you not see him with the dog in the clip on the first post ?, if that's not harming a dog then I dont know what is.



Natik said:


> does anyone ever think what happens to a dog if it "kicks off" one day in the future most likely because of the way it has been treated by cesar? Do u think he will be made responsible by its owner? (i very so doubt it !!!)
> No, it will be the dogs fault with its "dominance issues" probably being pts anyway!!!!! But trust me!!!...U wont see and hear any of that on his show !!!!


Good post and who knows it might have already happened.



goodvic2 said:


> What would you like to see happen with CM? Serious question :wink5:


 Strung up by his gonads ( can I say that ) with an e collar around them, serious answer .

Terri


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

I love watching cesar and he only does to a dog what another dog would normally do. People might see it as cruel but hes alot better at it than some other people I've seen on tv!!!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> he only does to a dog what another dog would normally do.


Your kidding right ?

Would a dog electrocute another then ?
How's about hanging it with it's lead ?

Clever dogs you know who are capable of that


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> I love watching cesar and he only does to a dog what another dog would normally do. People might see it as cruel but hes alot better at it than some other people I've seen on tv!!!


Another dog wouldnt be able to strangle another dog!! 
Or place an E-collar around its neck!!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Your kidding right ?
> 
> Would a dog electrocute another then ?
> How's about hanging it with it's lead ?
> ...


hahaaaa....SNAP


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> hahaaaa....SNAP


What would you all say if a bitch was trying to mount another bitch????


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

And it is an owners fault if a dog is out of control. Your the leader of the pack you act like it!!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> His show should be taken off the screens and he should get a banned from handling dogs! ....


This is why this thread will go on and on and on........ If people genuinely feel this strongly whilst others think he is god, then there is no middle ground.

For me, this is my last comment. I think it is a shame he is so mis-interpreted. His cases are not always about dominance, there are many that deal with obsessional behaviour, fear, aggression and with no mention of dominance. However people believe what they believe....

He has been a huge help to me and I put down my success to his logic and understanding, which has encouraged me to delve deeper into canine psychology. Indirectly I believe that he has enabled me to work with my first two problem dogs and this has enabled me to rescue a third. I am not sure whether I would have been able to have kept Max and Lilly without using his techniques and getting the motivation from his show.

Over and Out of this thread!


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> This is why this thread will go on and on and on........ If people genuinely feel this strongly whilst others think he is god, then there is no middle ground.
> 
> For me, this is my last comment. I think it is a shame he is so mis-interpreted. His cases are not always about dominance, there are many that deal with obsessional behaviour, fear, aggression and with no mention of dominance. However people believe what they believe....
> 
> ...


Well said and I agree


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> What would you all say if a bitch was trying to mount another bitch????


I really don't see the comparison between the above and another dog using an E-Collar,or another dog attempting to strangle the other with a lead.
Perhaps you could give us an explanation ?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> What would you all say if a bitch was trying to mount another bitch????


I would let them get on with it unless one was upset, it's quite natural behaviour


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I really don't see the comparison between the above and another dog using an E-Collar,or another dog attempting to strangle the other with a lead.
> Perhaps you could give us an explanation ?


Was just asking if anyone new what a bitch mounting another bitch meant!! I would never use an electric collar!!! Cos the person starting this thread should know dogs inside out if they can tell a dog trainer they are'nt very good!!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

rona said:


> I would let them get on with it unless one was upset, it's quite natural behaviour


I was just about to post something to similar effect, if it don't bother the dogs in question, why worry about it?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> Was just asking if anyone new what a bitch mounting another bitch meant!! I would never use an electric collar!!! Cos the person starting this thread should know dogs inside out if they can tell a dog trainer they are'nt very good!!


I'd put it down to a hormones, especially if one of them was due in season.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> Was just asking if anyone new what a bitch mounting another bitch meant!! I would never use an electric collar!!! Cos the person starting this thread should know dogs inside out if they can tell a dog trainer they are'nt very good!!


Im totally lost!!!


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

rona said:


> I would let them get on with it unless one was upset, it's quite natural behaviour


No it does'nt upset me because its dominating within the pack not bonking!!! See you did'nt even know that!!!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> No it does'nt upset me because its dominating within the pack not bonking!!! See you did'nt even know that!!!


Explain why two of my girls used to take it in turns on one another? I wouldn't put that down to dominance.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> What would you all say if a bitch was trying to mount another bitch????


 I'd call a policeman  what would you do


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> I'd call a policeman  what would you do


Phone a friend


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Explain why two of my girls used to take it in turns on one another? I wouldn't put that down to dominance.


I am not getting into an argument now!! Its to do with dominance look it up and read about wolves cos thats what your dogs are domesticated wolves!! And if people like cesar and victoria and barbara were'nt around to help you...and dog borstal..lol...your dogs would be out of control!!!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

My JRT is spayed and she loves a good old hump of anything she can grab old of!!!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> I am not getting into an argument now!! Its to do with dominance look it up and read about wolves cos thats what your dogs are domesticated wolves!! And if people like cesar and victoria and barbara were'nt around to help you...and dog borstal..lol...your dogs would be out of control!!!


My dog's are out of control then coz they don't help me


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*With all thats been said he's still my no1........lets lighten this up.:001_tt2::001_tt2:*


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

My dogs are very well behaved and they havent been strangled by Cesar to make them be good!!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I am not getting into an argument now!! Its to do with dominance look it up and read about wolves cos thats what your dogs are domesticated wolves!! And if people like cesar and victoria and barbara were'nt around to help you...and dog borstal..lol...your dogs would be out of control!!!


Really - whose dogs are you referring to ???

I don't watch or follow any of the above trainers and my dogs are very much in control thank you!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> My dogs are very well behaved and they havent been strangled by Cesar to make them be good!!


LOL,
Mine have been electrocuted cos they were been dominant


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *With all thats been said he's still my no1........lets lighten this up.:001_tt2::001_tt2:*


OMG is that dog dead. sorry jan i couldn't help it


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> OMG is that dog dead. sorry jan i couldn't help it


lol....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> OMG is that dog dead. sorry jan i couldn't help it


*omg i'm pmsl...i've just said to my hubby i wonder who would be the 1st to say that.no he's just chilling as i would be in that possition.*


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> LOL,
> Mine have been electrocuted cos they were been dominant


Ah well you need to show them who the leader is dont you!!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *omg i'm pmsl...i've just said to my hubby i wonder who would be the 1st to say that.no he's just chilling as i would be in that possition.*


well it's lightened it up i was going to ask would you do that in a pool with him


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> I am not getting into an argument now!! Its to do with dominance look it up and read about wolves cos thats what your dogs are domesticated wolves!! And if people like cesar and victoria and barbara were'nt around to help you...and dog borstal..lol...your dogs would be out of control!!!


No, if *I* wasn't around then perhaps it would happen


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Really - whose dogs are you referring to ???
> 
> I don't watch or follow any of the above trainers and my dogs are very much in control thank you!


For gods sake I'm not saying about anyones dog in peticular!! I am just saying about eveyone in general. Cesar does'nt strangle dogs!! If you took time and watch your dogs playing they hold each other down by the throat!! Thats all hes doing. Go learn and watch your dogs tonight playing!! You'll learn alot.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> well it's lightened it up i was going to ask would you do that in a pool with him


*i sure would, no question about it.*


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> For gods sake I'm not saying about anyones dog in peticular!! I am just saying about eveyone in general. Cesar does'nt strangle dogs!! If you took time and watch your dogs playing they hold each other down by the throat!! Thats all hes doing. Go learn and watch your dogs tonight playing!! You'll learn alot.


OMG we must be deluded because we don't advocate strangling our dogs


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> For gods sake I'm not saying about anyones dog in peticular!! I am just saying about eveyone in general. Cesar does'nt strangle dogs!! If you took time and watch your dogs playing they hold each other down by the throat!! Thats all hes doing. Go learn and watch your dogs tonight playing!! You'll learn alot.


Dogs beeing pinned down by another dog is 1000000% different than haveing their oxygen supply cut off, by a silly man trying to prove a point


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

flufffluff39 said:


> For gods sake I'm not saying about anyones dog in peticular!! I am just saying about eveyone in general. Cesar does'nt strangle dogs!! If you took time and watch your dogs playing they hold each other down by the throat!! Thats all hes doing. Go learn and watch your dogs tonight playing!! You'll learn alot.


he is electrocuting them...have u missed that point?  And he is hanging them or else the dogs front paws would be touching the ground and they certainly arent!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

You know im right dont you! 


Oh and i will not be leaving on your request ta very much!!!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

The day I HAVE to turn to Cesar in order to learn how to hande my dogs is the day i'll admit defeat and give up keeping dogs ! For ever!
lol
DT


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> For gods sake I'm not saying about anyones dog in peticular!! I am just saying about eveyone in general. Cesar does'nt strangle dogs!! If you took time and watch your dogs playing they hold each other down by the throat!! Thats all hes doing. Go learn and watch your dogs tonight playing!! You'll learn alot.


Techniques like the alpha roll and scruff shake are purportedly based on the behavior of dogs ancestor, the wolf. Studies done in the wild years ago reported that wolves use the alpha roll to discipline and control other pack members. In later years, those studies were disproved. What ethologists found was that when a wolf wanted to dominate another, he would "muzzle pin," i.e. place his own muzzle, mouth wide open, teeth bared, gently over the muzzle of the other. The pinned wolf would then roll over and submit voluntarily. Thats an important distinction. In fact, if a wolf forcefully slams another to the ground, teeth around his neck, staring hard, chances are he means to kill that animal. Is that really the message you want to send to your dog?
Dominance vs. Leadership


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I can't believe what i'm reading here, i thought we were all adults.
If cesar isn't bothered what people say then why are some getting out of their prams?ut:*


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

Thread Closed for moderating.


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

OK.. if we can get back on track here i will now leave this thread open.. i have removed the problem, so can we all start with a nice comment here please!!!
Keep it nice peeps *please*. i've had a hard day! 
** kisses to you all**


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *i sure would, no question about it.*


I like that mick on dog borstal


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I think that some of Ceaser's methods are good and effective, and i think some are a bit much, yet i do not think he should be accused of cruelty. 

Flufffluff bitches mounting one another isn't always dominance, it can be that they are playing.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

3 red dogs said:


> OK.. if we can get back on track here i will now leave this thread open.. i have removed the problem, so can we all start with a nice comment here please!!!
> Keep it nice peeps *please*. i've had a hard day!
> ** kisses to you all**


Thanks Red...Il pass on the kisses though ta very much :001_tt2:


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Thanks Red...Il pass on the kisses though ta very much :001_tt2:


LOL you got no sense of adventure!! lol


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I think that some of Ceaser's methods are good and effective, and i think some are a bit much


I am on the same wave length as yourself. I do think though when some are a bit much they are really OTT. Can I ask anyone on this thread who agrees with Cesar's ways---Have you ever/ or even tried to string your dog up by a choke chain/ lead until its feet are completely off the floor??


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

No Never!!:cursing: hanging a dog is not 'training' it!!

& as for agreeing with Ceasars methods......his tv program even warns NOT to try these techniques at home! Great advice!!....so i'll go with that!:thumbsup:


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## Hb-mini (May 20, 2009)

I love Cesar, i think his techniques are very effective and not at all cruel. It all makes sense i think. How it explains it is brilliant. His books are great and he cares a lot about dogs welfare. 

xx


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## iibao (Jul 3, 2009)

Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

iibao said:


> Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


Yes,I have.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

iibao said:


> Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


Yep! sure have!!
DT


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Hb-mini said:


> I love Cesar, i think his techniques are very effective and not at all cruel. It all makes sense i think. How it explains it is brilliant. His books are great and he cares a lot about dogs welfare.
> 
> xx


I love Cesar too. One thing is for sure. His techniques work.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

3 red dogs said:


> OK.. if we can get back on track here i will now leave this thread open.. i have removed the problem, so can we all start with a nice comment here please!!!
> Keep it nice peeps *please*. i've had a hard day!
> ** kisses to you all**


You've removed the problem? I'm confused. Could you explain to me what problem you are talking about please? Thank you.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> You've removed the problem? I'm confused. Could you explain to me what problem you are talking about please? Thank you.


There was someone posting yesterday who became very abusive, so they are now banned and the offending post has been removed


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## clayrelouise (Jul 15, 2009)

I completley agree Hannah...his methods are very effective and i think he is great and explains everything very well.
If you are a watcher of dog whisperer you will know that Cesar himself has said that he dosn't like using choke collars....he much prefers just using a standard lead...however some dog owners with very unbalanced and aggresive dogs feel more comfortable using a choke collar as it gives them more control and that is when he recommends using one.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

iibao said:


> Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


Yes



clayrelouise said:


> If you are a watcher of dog whisperer you will know that Cesar himself has said that he dosn't like using choke collars....he much prefers just using a standard lead...


What about the illusion collar, what do you think of that.

Terri


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

iibao said:


> Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


i personally havent but have followed others close by dealing with people and dog aggressive dogs ....


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

iibao said:


> Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


Yes, on multiple occassions.


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## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

This just never ends, does it? 

I've looked at some of the other CM video clips on National Geographic's website (click on the link in Post 1, then click on "Need more Dog Whisperer? Watch your favorite videos") - some were uncomfortable to watch (use of e-collar, mobile groomer needing help [such a confined space!]), others were applaudable (highlighting the problem of puppy mills; visiting the kennels of licensed breeders, handling rescued dogs); others left me with mixed feelings (Ali the German Shepherd).

I invite you to research other trainers/behaviourists and see how much of their techniques you agree/disagree with. You would probably form opinions, both positive and negative, of people such as Dr. Ian Dunbar, Lesley McDevitt, Jan Fennell, Stan Rawlinson, Colin Tennant, et al.

Cesar provokes a lot of controversy because he has such a high profile.


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## Cuddypuppy (Jan 15, 2009)

Hb-mini said:


> I love Cesar, i think his techniques are very effective and not at all cruel. It all makes sense i think. How it explains it is brilliant. His books are great and he cares a lot about dogs welfare.
> 
> xx


Me too! I enjoy watching him. :blushing:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clayrelouise said:


> I completley agree Hannah...his methods are very effective and i think he is great and explains everything very well.
> If you are a watcher of dog whisperer you will know that Cesar himself has said that he dosn't like using choke collars....he much prefers just using a standard lead...however some dog owners with very unbalanced and aggresive dogs feel more comfortable using a choke collar as it gives them more control and that is when he recommends using one.


Of course his methods work, if someone would strangle u to submission im sure u would be too scared to do anything either....

And its not about him using a check collar, its about him using this training aid in a very wrong and dangerous way!!!
Check collars are there to CHECK and RELEASE (im kinda shocked how many people dont seem to undertand this) and not pull it that high up until the paws are off the ground and that the airsupplies are shut off and the dog basiclly looses the fight for its life  
No responsible dog behaviorist/trainer would ever ever use a check collar in this way!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

The secret to training any dog is being able to read its body language!!!
Sad to admit something I failed to read myself just the other day! But would I engage CM's tactics???? about as much as I would stick my head in the fire!
That said! I have actually enjoyed watchin a few of his programmes of late!! He is the guy on the toothpaste commercial I assume!!!


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

iibao said:


> Has any of you deal with an aggressive dog ?


Yes I have too, and especially with one of them if i had of used his tactics i am sure i would have been bitten myself.


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## iibao (Jul 3, 2009)

For everyone had has deal with an anggressive dog, how did you guys handle it ?
I am an open-minded person, I would like to hear about all the other methods. And how it worked out.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Depends what triggers the agression! in our case it is 'fear' agression is dog tha I rescued! he had been badly abused and does NOT trust men!

What type of agression are you talking!


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## iibao (Jul 3, 2009)

I understand fearful dogs, they are difficult to work with.
Ones that just want to attack/kill something or someone.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

iibao said:


> I understand fearful dogs, they are difficult to work with.
> Ones that just want to attack/kill something or someone.


Aggression always stems from somewhere. Its nearly always fear based.

Aggression for no reason is extremely rare.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

iibao said:


> For everyone had has deal with an anggressive dog, how did you guys handle it ?
> I am an open-minded person, I would like to hear about all the other methods. And how it worked out.


Certainly by not using harsh methods like CM,afterall what does that actually teach a dog,to be fearful of humans as they cause fear and pain ?

We had to go right back to basics,start to build up trust,etc using postitive reinforcement.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Aggression always stems from somewhere. Its nearly always fear based.
> 
> Aggression for no reason is extremely rare.


I had a JRT that had no fear at all, right little vicious devil.
But he was a working dog, so it was possibly a learnt response


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I understand fearful dogs, they are difficult to work with.
> Ones that just want to attack/kill something or someone


This is the problem with watching someone and using their methods - there is no 'one size fits all' method and it depends on the triggers. Most of the dogs I've seen CM work with are like that due to have incompetent owners. A dog that just wants to attack/kill something or someone without any apparent cause, is just as likely to have a temperament problem (probably inherited) - it is not in a dog's nature to actively provoke violence, in which case, I'm afraid the best and kindest solution would be pts.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Certainly by not using harsh methods like CM,afterall what does that actually teach a dog,to be fearful of humans as they cause fear and pain ?
> 
> We had to go right back to basics,start to build up trust,etc using postitive reinforcement.


Totally agree!

Teaching fear brings distrust too


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

You may find this useful! I am not saying that I agree with the pts option! but all in all this passage offers good basic advice! and re-inforces what Sally says that you cannot treat agression with agression!

Many trainers have different methods! It's identifying the problem and finding the most effective method to suit your cause!

regards
DT

Dog Owner's Guide: Canine Aggression

ps if you go to the home page there are many other areas covered!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> I had a JRT that had no fear at all, right little vicious devil.
> But he was a working dog, so it was possibly a learnt response


Maybe he had a reason, but it wasnt apparent.

I think its highly unlikely that a dog would just turn around and try to savage someone/thing for no reason whatsoever. Although im sure it can and does happen, albeit rarely.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I think its highly unlikely that a dog would just turn around and try to savage someone/thing for no reason whatsoever. Although im sure it can and does happen, albeit rarely.


Yes very rare... but in these rare cases the dog should be PTS inmho


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Dingle said:


> Yes very rare... but in these rare cases the dog should be PTS inmho


Often in these cases there are underlying health issues
regards
DT


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Dingle said:


> Yes very rare... but in these rare cases the dog should be PTS inmho


I agree. If you dont know why a dog is acting like it is, then you cant do anything to remedy and help the problem.

You cant "cure" an animal, when there is no cause. Euthanasia is the only option.


----------



## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Dingle
> Yes very rare... but in these rare cases the dog should be PTS inmho
> 
> Often in these cases there are underlying health issues


Absolutely or it could be inherited. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen unfortunately, and IMO it is not responsible to keep such a dog in society.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

I wonder how many of these problem dogs he deals with ever have a vet check ?


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

I think he's just purely brilliant, he has a fantastic manner with the dogs.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I wonder how many of these problem dogs he deals with ever have a vet check ?


Before or after he's seen them .

Terri


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Kinski said:


> Before or after he's seen them .
> 
> Terri


Wanted to give you rep for that but given out too much already


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Kinski said:


> Before or after he's seen them .
> 
> Terri


Good point,I suspect both


----------



## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

only just spotted this thread, wish i hadnt, i am possibly one of the biggest CM haters ever, the dog in that clip behaved IMHO appropriatly because the idiot kicked him. I really cant believe anyone would let such a pillock handle their dogs, his tv programme has often made me cry because of the terrible things he has put dogs through, (yet for some strange reason i cant turn it off) he should not be allowed anywhere near animals and if i ever meet him he'll be dead!!! he is possibly the one person i would kill.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

rona said:


> Wanted to give you rep for that but given out too much already


Thank you for thinking of doing it :blushing:



sallyanne said:


> Good point,I suspect both


That's what I was thinking as well.

Terri


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> only just spotted this thread, wish i hadnt, i am possibly one of the biggest CM haters ever, the dog in that clip behaved IMHO appropriatly because the idiot kicked him. I really cant believe anyone would let such a pillock handle their dogs, his tv programme has often made me cry because of the terrible things he has put dogs through, (yet for some strange reason i cant turn it off) he should not be allowed anywhere near animals and if i ever meet him he'll be dead!!! he is possibly the one person i would kill.


Hey whoa, I'm a huge Cesar Millan fan and I think he is awesome. He is just fantastic.hmy:


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I agree. If you dont know why a dog is acting like it is, then you cant do anything to remedy and help the problem.
> 
> You cant "cure" an animal, when there is no cause. Euthanasia is the only option.


Leave euthanasia out of it. Only reason is I've just had to have my hamster euthanased today.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

rona said:


> There was someone posting yesterday who became very abusive, so they are now banned and the offending post has been removed


They were being abusive? We will have none of that please. I'm glad you removed the post and they are now banned. We only want a friendly discussion right?


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

These are a good couple of links if anyone is interested,

Bristol University | News from the University | Dog behaviour and training

Nonlinear Dogs


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Does CM still use those barbaric E-collars...


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Personally don't like the man myself or his methods. :nono:


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Dingle said:


> Does CM still use those barbaric E-collars...


I'm not sure,perhaps he prefers to strangle them with leads now instead 

I caught a little of his programme last week or the week before he had a Rottie herding sheep,as it's a natural thing to do,both myself and O/H could see what was going to happen,dog was getting wound up and eventually caught and bit the sheep.
We could see it a mile off,yet the dog trainer and I use that term loosely allowed it to happen.

Does anyone ever see his dogs acting like dogs, actually playing and showing natural dog behaviour ?
It seems to me that the lights are on,yet no one is in.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> haha tell them i said hello back


the dogs are hyper today. Uhoh Dixie just triedto jump on my knee. She always does that. She thinks she is a lap dog. Cesar gets a gold star of me. He is great.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Cesar will use anything on TV to make him self look good!!!

If hes as good as everyone thinks he is then why does he have to use these E-collars and what ever else he uses to "so call train" these dogs in the first place!!!!!!????


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> only just spotted this thread, wish i hadnt, i am possibly one of the biggest CM haters ever, the dog in that clip behaved IMHO appropriatly because the idiot kicked him. I really cant believe anyone would let such a pillock handle their dogs, his tv programme has often made me cry because of the terrible things he has put dogs through, (yet for some strange reason i cant turn it off) he should not be allowed anywhere near animals and if i ever meet him he'll be dead!!! he is possibly the one person i would kill.


Your not on your own I can't stand the man or he's so called training methods, I know some people don't like Victoria Stilwell but her idea of rewarding good behavior and ignoring bad and letting the dog work things out for her/he's self is much better. Training is not a quick fix and as she says you need lots of time, patience, Not shouting and bullying them.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Cesar will use anything on TV to make him self look good!!!


EXACTLY!! IMO he would be far better in a toothpaste commercial!!! 
lo
DT


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> EXACTLY!! IMO he would be far better in a toothpaste commercial!!!
> lo
> DT


Thats true DT..and i couldnt agree more!!!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> the dogs are hyper today. Uhoh Dixie just triedto jump on my knee. She always does that. She thinks she is a lap dog. Cesar gets a gold star of me. He is great.


That made me laugh what breed is she?. I'll give your dog's gold star's but not Cesar sorry


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> EXACTLY!! IMO he would be far better in a toothpaste commercial!!!
> lo
> DT


I like it.:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

well iv never seen this man but i dont see how any of that was cruelty!! can anyone explain why the dog just lay on the ground afterwards tho?? and didnt get up?? im confused with that part! lol


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> EXACTLY!! IMO he would be far better in a toothpaste commercial!!!
> lo
> DT


Thought you might be interested in this DT,
American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: AVSAB Letter to Merial | Facebook
Dear Dr. Line,

The executive board of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior is deeply troubled to learn that Merial, a leader in the veterinary healthcare industry, is using Cesar Millan in a promotional campaign for Heartgard and Frontline. We are even more disturbed to find that Merial is cross-promoting Mr. Millan's behavior video as part of this campaign. Merial's executives may not be aware of the fact that the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT) have uniformly spoken out against the punishment-based techniques employed by Mr. Millan on his television show "The Dog Whisperer."

At best, the show is entertaining but misleading to pet owners. At worst, Mr. Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. As practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter. Merial claims to "enhance the health, well-being, and performance of animals. The use of Mr. Millan as part of an advertising campaign speaks otherwise.

In these difficult economic times, it may be understandable that Merial would want to use a "celebrity" to advertise its products in a direct-to-consumer fashion. However, had Merial taken the time to investigate, it would have found that Mr. Millan's philosophy runs counter to the standard-of-care promoted by veterinary behaviorists and taught at veterinary schools.

We are deeply saddened that Merial's executives are not more supportive of the veterinary behavior community and its efforts to promote knowledgeable, scientifically-based, humane training methods. We remain concerned that your company's support of Mr. Millans controversial training methods through the distribution of his video and financial support of his show will contribute to the number of difficult dogs and injured owners that we have to eventually console, counsel, and reeducate. Perhaps Merial would like to support our efforts to counteract the negative impact of this unfortunate marketing choice that may ultimately serve to alienate educated veterinarians, dog trainers, and owners alike.

Sincerely,

E. Kathryn Meyer, VMD (President)
John Ciribassi, DVM, DACVB (Immediate Past President)
Karen Sueda, DVM, DACVB (President Elect)
Kari Krause, DVM
Kelly Morgan, DVM
Valli Parthasarathy, PhD, DVM
Sophia Yin, PhD, DVM
Laurie Bergman, VMD, DACVB


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> well iv never seen this man but i dont see how any of that was cruelty!! can anyone explain why the dog just lay on the ground afterwards tho?? and didnt get up?? im confused with that part! lol


Because it cant breath and has no other choice!!!! Sorry but if you dont see strangling a dog as cruelty then god help this world!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> well iv never seen this man but i dont see how any of that was cruelty!! can anyone explain why the dog just lay on the ground afterwards tho?? and didnt get up?? im confused with that part! lol


It had had its air supply cut off. When the bodies cells are starved of oxygen, then become very weak and tired, and take time to recover.

Basically the dog was exhausted and physically unable to move anymore.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

:O !!! OMG cruelty...yeh he should get done poor dog omg i look at that completly difrent now!! just chekd out a few of his other videos on the same site the OP posted look at "baby girl" the dog obviously hates the water and he resolves nothing by the end of it!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Cesar will use anything on TV to make him self look good!!!
> 
> If hes as good as everyone thinks he is then why does he have to use these E-collars and what ever else he uses to "so call train" these dogs in the first place!!!!!!????


*Yet again i will state cesars words not mine, HE DOES NOT TRAIN DOGS.
And as for the E-collars yes he has used them, but he's not the 1st and won't be the last do so.the way some of you talk you'd think he was using 240volts.*


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yet again i will state cesars words not mine, HE DOES NOT TRAIN DOGS.
> And as for the E-collars yes he has used them, but he's not the 1st and won't be the last do so.the way some of you talk you'd think he was using 240volts.*


Well imo he does nothing to the dogs apart from put fear into them!!

I would say the same about any one using an E-collar or any of the other methods i dis like of his!!

and to be honest when i am watching these video's im watching at the dogs body laungue and how the dog is being treated i am not watching it to look at Cesar or anyone else!!! So to me it doesnt matter who is doing it i dont agree with it!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> * HE DOES NOT TRAIN DOGS.
> *


Too right,he terrorises them,strangles them,kicks them,electrocutes them,as far as I'm concerned he has taken dog training back to the dark ages.

This quote from Ian Dunbar made me smile,
Dogs arent wolves, Dunbar says, generations
of evolution separate the two animals. Learning from wolves to interact with
pet dogs makes about as much sense as, I want to improve my parenting  lets see how the chimps do it!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Too right,he terrorises them,strangles them,kicks them,electrocutes them,as far as I'm concerned he has taken dog training back to the dark ages.
> 
> This quote from Ian Dunbar made me smile,
> Dogs arent wolves, Dunbar says, generations
> ...


Brilliant quote! :001_tt2:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Well imo he does nothing to the dogs apart from put fear into them!!
> *
> I would say the same about any one using an E-collar or any of the other methods i dis like of his!!
> 
> ...


*

Thats fine your entitled to your oppion as are others.


sallyanne said:



Too right,he terrorises them,strangles them,kicks them,electrocutes them,as far as I'm concerned he has taken dog training back to the dark ages.

This quote from Ian Dunbar made me smile,
Dogs arent wolves, Dunbar says, generations
of evolution separate the two animals. Learning from wolves to interact with
pet dogs makes about as much sense as, I want to improve my parenting  lets see how the chimps do it! 

Click to expand...

Now that way ott..and once again why use the term dog training?*


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I was watching It's me or the dog, and Victoria went to a house to help train a dog, whose own had been told by a trainer to use a E-Collar she went mad, the own said that the collar had burned the dogs neck, so Vitoria put it on a low setting and put it on the owners arm, she was horrifed and said if she had known the shook was so strong and the problem was it was only set on 2 and trainer had told her to use it on 8 it was a wonder the poor dog was still a live and it was that frighten about been shocked it was frighten to go in the garden as they were using it to stop him jumping the fence.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Thats fine your entitled to your oppion as are others.
Now that way ott..and once again why use the term dog training?


Thats right we are  We are just going to have to agree to dis agree on this one!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

who is cesar milan sound like a tin a cat meat:smilewinkgrin:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Thats fine your entitled to your oppion as are others.
> Now that way ott..and once again why use the term dog training?
> 
> Thats right we are  We are just going to have to agree to dis agree on this one!


* thats good then its hardly worth falling out over.*


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

borderer said:


> who is cesar milan sound like a tin a cat meat:smilewinkgrin:


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

borderer said:


> who is cesar milan sound like a tin a cat meat:smilewinkgrin:


Oh bordie, go on admit it you miss his picture in my sig.:001_tt2:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

If he is not training then why is he using training equipment??? (but maybe because he is not training he is using those so wrong and in such a dangerous way!)

I very much doubt that any one supporting him would let him strungle their own very much loved dog in such a way knowing that its acting that way because, as an example, u failed to train the dog to leave!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Oh bordie, go on admit it you miss his picture in my sig.:001_tt2:


is he a poofter with false teethhmy::smilewinkgrin:


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Thats fine your entitled to your oppion as are others.
> 
> Now that way ott..and once again why use the term dog training?[/B][/COLOR]


I don't think it's OTT,
That is what I and many other's see.If he's so fabulous at what he does why has he been bitten so many times ?
Why are other trainers and vets concerned,vets are concerned as they are seeing the problems that man is creating.
You think he's the only person to have dealt with red zone dogs ?
Other trainers with qualifications have too,those that understand dog behaviour for what it is,instead of putting it down to dominance.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> * thats good then its hardly worth falling out over.*


No it isnt 

hahaaa bordie!! :001_tt2:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


borderer said:



is he a poofter with false teethhmy::smilewinkgrin:

Click to expand...

He might be bordie, either way i find him sexy and very moreish.:001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:



sallyanne said:



I don't think it's OTT,
That is what I and many other's see.If he's so fabulous at what he does why has he been bitten so many times ?
Why are other trainers and vets concerned,vets are concerned as they are seeing the problems that man is creating.
You think he's the only person to have dealt with red zone dogs ?
Other trainers with qualifications have too,those that understand dog behaviour for what it is,instead of putting it down to dominance.

Click to expand...

How people choose to interpret what they see is down to them, but remember the ped.dog.ex. programe? apparently what we saw wasn't true.*


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> * thats good then its hardly worth falling out over.*


Jan do you love CM then  only trying to lighten it up again. But do you love him?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Jan do you love CM then  only trying to lighten it up again. But do you love him?


*pmsl if your serious hun the answer is no.but do i like his looks and what he does yes.:*


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl if your serious hun the answer is no.but do i like his looks and what he does yes.:*


you want him you loose womanhmy::smilewinkgrin:


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl if your serious hun the answer is no.but do i like his looks and what he does yes.:*


Okies Janice the love struck one  Tell me if it was any other person apart from cesar doing this would you still find it acceptable Honestly!!!??


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

borderer said:


> you want him you loose womanhmy::smilewinkgrin:


*
damn was it so obvious?:blushing::001_tt2:*


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> He might be bordie, either way i find him sexy and very moreish.:001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:
> 
> How people choose to interpret what they see is down to them, but remember the ped.dog.ex. programe? apparently what we saw wasn't true.*


Yep,however we are not talking about that programme were talking about an idiot.
What is the point of a programme that tells you not to try this at home over and over ?
Why does it state that,so what he does is infact dangerous and he pushes dogs to the extreme,I wonder if he's worried about been sued if while using his methods you were to get bitten.
Take the video on the first page of this thread,Would you let anyone including him treat YOUR dogs in that manner ?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Okies Janice the love struck one  Tell me if it was any other person apart from cesar doing this would you still find it acceptable Honestly!!!??


*Honestly, if i had got to watch anyone else do the same thing with the same results the answer would be yes.I joke about cesar and my "crush" on him but thats why i like this forum, but i still have a serious side.*


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Honestly, if i had got to watch anyone else do the same thing with the same results the answer would be yes.I joke about cesar and my "crush" on him but thats why i like this forum, but i still have a serious side.*


so its serious thenhmy:hmy::smilewinkgrin:


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Yep,however we are not talking about that programme were talking about an idiot.
> What is the point of a programme that tells you not to try this at home over and over ?
> Why does it state that,so what he does is infact dangerous and he pushes dogs to the extreme,I wonder if he's worried about been sued if while using his methods you were to get bitten.
> Take the video on the first page of this thread,Would you let anyone including him treat YOUR dogs in that manner ?


*I have seen loads of programes that state, do not try this at home.its not just cesar milans programe.Probably because you can't do much these days without someone thinking about health and safety.*


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Honestly, if i had got to watch anyone else do the same thing with the same results the answer would be yes.I joke about cesar and my "crush" on him but thats why i like this forum, but i still have a serious side.*


I never laugh at you only with you.And i'd say you've forgotten more than some of us no. i do respect you realy.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Badger's Mum said:



I never laugh at you only with you.And i'd say you've forgotten more than some of us no. i do respect you realy.

Click to expand...

Oh bless ya hun thats so sweet of you.and i sure know you were joking, i think we have the same sence of humour.
ps. and a lot of what i've forgotten wasn't worth remembering.:001_tt2:*


----------



## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Oh bless ya hun thats so sweet of you.and i sure know you were joking, i think we have the same sence of humour.
> ps. and a lot of what i've forgotten wasn't worth remembering.:001_tt2:*


hehe my kid's tell me that all the time


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> I am on the same wave length as yourself. I do think though when some are a bit much they are really OTT. Can I ask anyone on this thread who agrees with Cesar's ways---Have you ever/ or even tried to string your dog up by a choke chain/ lead until its feet are completely off the floor??


Any Cesar Fan willing to answer this?????


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

clueless said:


> Any Cesar Fan willing to answer this?????


I am a fan of CM but would never copy anything he does as it says only to be performed by proffessionals


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'm a fan too,but i'd be too scared to handle the dogs cesar does.But if i was bigger and stronger and the need arose the answer would be yes.*


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

I dont understand why you have to be a "proffessionals" to strangle a dog!! If i strangled a dog like he did in that clip i would acheive exactly the same result as him!


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Another link,
Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer, Proof that this Guy's a Putz « The Spirit Dog

The more I see of this guy the more I feel he has not got a clue!


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

claire said:


> I am a fan of CM but would never copy anything he does as it says only to be performed by proffessionals


So can I ask you Do you know of any other Proffessional Trainer that as much as tells you not to use their methods


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

I wouldnt say its my fav therory of CM however I wonder how many dogs he has successfully rehabilitated!!! i should imagine it to be many and that speaks for its self


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

clueless said:


> So can I ask you Do you know of any other Proffessional Trainer that as much as tells you not to use their methods


IMO no good trainer would tell anyone to use there methods without personally seeing the dog themselves. Each dog is different and requires an individual opinion


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

claire said:


> I wouldnt say its my fav therory of CM however I wonder how many dogs he has successfully rehabilitated!!! i should imagine it to be many and that speaks for its self


And I wonder how many people and owners alike have been bitten as a result ?
One owner was bitten on his show,
He's not the only one to have rehabilitated dogs,but others use more humane methods.


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Another link,
> Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer, Proof that this Guy's a Putz « The Spirit Dog
> 
> The more I see of this guy the more I feel he has not got a clue!


omg!!! Sal i watched the one called "Persistence pays off" and that poor dog..Look at the fear in its eyes, look at the pure fear that its body is giving off!
The man is a plonker i know nothing about training but i can tell that dog is very nervose in the first place! and then to be shoved around like that and pinned to the floor is doing the dog no favours! what a joke!!!


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

claire said:


> IMO no good trainer would tell anyone to use there methods without personally seeing the dog themselves. Each dog is different and requires an individual opinion


True enough so have you noticed any other Professional Dog Training TV Programme state this


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*There a very simple answer to this debate, if you don't like cesar milan then don't watch him or try and do what he does.*


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

this guy is a nutter, i wonder how many dogs been pts anyway after being "rehabilitatet" on his show. But they wouldnt tell u, would they?


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *There a very simple answer to this debate, if you don't like cesar milan then don't watch him or try and do what he does.*


Aaaah Janice then we could not all have a good debate. Ya spoiling the Fun Girl lol


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> this guy is a nutter, i wonder how many dogs been pts anyway after being "rehabilitatet" on his show. But they wouldnt tell u, would they?


Makes me wonder too. If he bases his rehabilitation on fear how long will it take before the dog lashes out because it's so afraid? You back a dog into a corner for long enough and it will go for you!

This is why I stay well away from programmes like this, I can't bear it.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> this guy is a nutter, i wonder how many dogs been pts anyway after being "rehabilitatet" on his show. But they wouldnt tell u, would they?


*Many of the dogs cesar deals with are cases that others have said should be pts.but he didn't give up on them.*


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> omg!!! Sal i watched the one called "Persistence pays off" and that poor dog..Look at the fear in its eyes, look at the pure fear that its body is giving off!
> The man is a plonker i know nothing about training but i can tell that dog is very nervose in the first place! and then to be shoved around like that and pinned to the floor is doing the dog no favours! what a joke!!!


I just felt so sorry for that dog, and to be treated like that was apalling 

Nor are Cesars methods neccessarily humane. It is true that he does not condone yelling or hitting a dog, but his sharp jabs, pokes and prods are mentally damagingit creates a fearful, unsure dog. He also uses leash corrections for more aggressive dogs, which are not only painful to a dog, but may also cause extreme tracheal damage. He puts dogs face to face, forcing them to interact, which could be a dog fight in the making (and on several episodes, HAS resulted in dangerous dog fights). He also puts dogs through strenuous activities, which are meant to drain their negative energy. While I agree that exercise is good for a dogs mental well being, I have yet to hear him suggest that dogs should be checked by a veterinarian before being put through extreme physical strain. That, too, can be dangerous.

The ACP â¥ » Cesar Millan: Canine guru, or doggie dope?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Makes me wonder too. If he bases his rehabilitation on fear how long will it take before the dog lashes out because it's so afraid? You back a dog into a corner for long enough and it will go for you!
> 
> This is why I stay well away from programmes like this, I can't bear it.


and he probably brain washed the owners that much that they certainly wouldnt make him responsible for the dogs behaviour!!!


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

LOL i agree, ive followed this debate since it started, its been really good. However we cant all agree all the time can we, nice to see the different opinions tho


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> and he probably brain washed the owners that much that they certainly wouldnt make him responsible for the dogs behaviour!!!


Seems he can brainwash alot of the GP too.


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> and he probably brain washed the owners that much that they certainly wouldnt make him responsible for the dogs behaviour!!!


Makes me thankful for this forum tbh, I dread to think how I would have trained Sky if I wasn't informed!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I just felt so sorry for that dog, and to be treated like that was apalling
> 
> Nor are Cesars methods neccessarily humane. It is true that he does not condone yelling or hitting a dog, but his sharp jabs, pokes and prods are mentally damagingit creates a fearful, unsure dog. He also uses leash corrections for more aggressive dogs, which are not only painful to a dog, but may also cause extreme tracheal damage. He puts dogs face to face, forcing them to interact, which could be a dog fight in the making (and on several episodes, HAS resulted in dangerous dog fights). He also puts dogs through strenuous activities, which are meant to drain their negative energy. While I agree that exercise is good for a dogs mental well being, I have yet to hear him suggest that dogs should be checked by a veterinarian before being put through extreme physical strain. That, too, can be dangerous.
> 
> The ACP â¥ » Cesar Millan: Canine guru, or doggie dope?


Great post Sal as always...I seem to find myself agreeing with you more and more!!
Dare i click on that link


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Great post Sal as always...I seem to find myself agreeing with you more and more!!
> Dare i click on that link


It's just a link to the piece I posted


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

If that dog was behaving the way it was with Cesar with another dog.. jumping and biting at it, what do you think the other dog would have done ?????
I'm quite sure he'd have done a lot worse than anything Cesar did !!!!!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

to those who have said that CM doesnt train dogs he rehabilitates them. Its the same thing!! its like saying a counciller and a psychiotrist (sp?) are completly different, they have different job titles but they need the same basic knowledge and they do pretty much the same thing!!! 

im a dog behaviourist/trainer myself and have been studying dog behaviour for years and you need to understand dog behaviour to be a trainer and you need to understand how to train animals and the effects different methods have to be able to "fix" behavour problems. the two go hand in hand. after watching CM programmes i can honestly tell you he cannot read a dogs behaviour at all, where i can see a very fearful dog he will say its very dominant!!

and to those that think he is saving dogs that would otherwise be PTS i have seen and also used much kinder methods to save dogs lives and the dogs have been happy and IMO normal dogs. 

oh and those e-collars, i tried one on low round my neck, it really bloody hurts!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> If that dog was behaving the way it was with Cesar with another dog.. jumping and biting at it, what do you think the other dog would have done ?????
> I'm quite sure he'd have done a lot worse than anything Cesar did !!!!!


Anyone that says they would do worse than that to a poor dog doesnt deserve the previalge to have them!!


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## Rachh (Jun 24, 2009)

erm im not bothering to read all the debate just going to have my say.
LOL.
I don't see what other choice he had seeing as the dog was physially attacking him 

love rach xoxo


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> erm im not bothering to read all the debate just going to have my say.
> LOL.
> I don't see what other choice he had seeing as the dog was physially attacking him
> 
> love rach xoxo


Shouldnt have tapped its behind with his foot then should he!! Well all know you dont approach a dog from behind even more so if its already aggressive and nervouse!!!

Strangling a dog is no way to carm it down is it???

Anyone that thinks its acceptable to cut off a dogs oxygen supply imo should not be owning animals its barbaric

imo he deserved 10 times worse than a few sracthes...Blimmin moron he is


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## Rachh (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Shouldnt have tapped its behind with his foot then should he!! Well all know you dont approach a dog from behind even more so if its already aggressive and nervouse!!!
> 
> Strangling a dog is not way to carm it down is it???
> 
> Anyone that thinks its acceptable to cut off a dogs oxygen supply imo should not be owning animals its barbaric


erm dont have ago at me?
I was giving my opinion 
as far as im concerned, people who need someone else to control their dog shouldnt have dogs in the first place.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> erm dont have ago at me?
> I was giving my opinion
> as far as im concerned, people who need someone else to control their dog shouldnt have dogs in the first place.


I am not having ago at you and nothing in my post says i am 

I just giving my views on what you said!!! Called a healthy debate!!! No having a go


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## Rachh (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I am not having ago at you and nothing in my post says i am
> 
> I just giving my views on what you said!!!


Sure.. Don't quote what ive said in future then if it wasnt aimed at me?
:smilewinkgrin:


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Anyone that says they would do worse than that to a poor dog doesnt deserve the previalge to have them!!


I think you need to read what I actually typed before making such silly comments on it.
Another *DOG *would have done far worse not a person !!!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> Sure.. Don't quote what ive said in future then if it wasnt aimed at me?
> :smilewinkgrin:


It was aimed at you like i just said I WAS GIVING MY VIEWS ON WHAT YOU SAID!


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## Rachh (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> It was aimed at you like i just said I WAS GIVING MY VIEWS ON WHAT YOU SAID!


well in future, dont


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> I think you need to read what I actually typed before making such silly comments on it.
> Another *DOG *would have done far worse not a person !!!!!!


Yep i have re-read it and your right you did say that!! Sorry!!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

shazalhasa said:


> I think you need to read what I actually typed before making such silly comments on it.
> Another *DOG *would have done far worse not a person !!!!!!


at least if its another dog its a fair match. and another dog would not have kicked the dog in the ribs in the first place. also Ceaser is being rough and confrontational, a dog would have been able to read the signs and send calming signals, resulting in none of that fiasco anyways.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> well in future, dont


Last post to you tonight!!! I will quote who i want! If you dont like it i suggest you put me on ignore!
Also if you dont want people quoting you, why come on to a thread where something is being debated!!


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## Rachh (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Last post to you tonight!!! I will quote who i want! If you dont like it i suggest you put me on ignore!
> Also if you dont want people quoting you, why come on to a thread where something is being debated!!


honey get over yourself!
your not the big 'i am' you think you are.
im out  
ut:


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> honey get over yourself!
> your not the big 'i am' you think you are.
> im out
> ut:


I dont think i am a big i am at all...I have differnt view than you end of!!
I'll put you on ignore!  Nothing you have ever said on this forum has intrested me much anyway!! 

Good night!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Last post to you tonight!!! I will quote who i want! If you dont like it i suggest you put me on ignore!
> Also if you dont want people quoting you, why come on to a thread where something is being debated!!


Thank you for the bad rep on this post Rachh!! I dont need to grow up!
i will remember i cant have my own views when your around!


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## nat1979 (Jan 2, 2009)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:I think this bloke is great:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

nat1979 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:I think this bloke is great:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


I dont agree with the CM comment but on your siggy, the life without dogs bit, i have that on a t-shirt.

sorry, i know thats not relevant in anyway but i just found it amusing. lol. i must be tired.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> erm dont have ago at me?
> I was giving my opinion
> as far as im concerned, people who need someone else to control their dog shouldnt have dogs in the first place.


CM should stick to advertising toothpaste!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> CM should stick to advertising toothpaste!!


Here Here!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> as far as im concerned, people who need someone else to control their dog shouldnt have dogs in the first place.


I personally think that comment is a lot OTT.

People call in behaviorists for allsorts of reasons, it does not mean that those people shouldn't own a dog.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Rachh said:


> erm dont have ago at me?
> I was giving my opinion
> as far as im concerned, people who need someone else to control their dog shouldnt have dogs in the first place.





Rachh said:


> Sure.. Don't quote what ive said in future then if it wasnt aimed at me?
> :smilewinkgrin:





shazalhasa said:


> I think you need to read what I actually typed before making such silly comments on it.
> Another *DOG *would have done far worse not a person !!!!!!





Rachh said:


> well in future, dont





Rachh said:


> honey get over yourself!
> your not the big 'i am' you think you are.
> im out
> ut:


What is this??? Have a go a DD night!!! 
Goodnight folks!!!
DT


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

nat1979 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:I think this bloke is great:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Some think Hitler was!!!


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What is this??? Have a go a DD night!!!
> Goodnight folks!!!
> DT


Always is if you dont agree with them!!! DD isnt bothered she has her own views and shes sticking to them!!! I can accept others views no problem seems others cant!! Cant even answer question i ask just come back with silly little remarks and bad rep!! Whats rep going to do...erm not alot haha


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

nat1979 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:I think this bloke is great:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Great for/at what?

I see he's pretty great at strangling and hanging dogs with their own collars/check chains whatever you want to call them until their tongues turn blue and their eyes are popping out with the distress of being beaten into submission with his bully boy tactics, all for entertainment and t.v ratings of course, nothing more 

I'd take full responsibility for my actions if someone like him ever did that to a dog of mine, it wouldn't be pretty but I'd make sure they damn well paid.

Can I ask a question? What would you have done had that been YOUR dog he did that with ?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nat1979 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:I think this bloke is great:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


hes about as 'great' as Barbara Woodhouse!! with his outdated punishment based training methods!


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Natik said:


> and he probably brain washed the owners that much that they certainly wouldnt make him responsible for the dogs behaviour!!!


Reckon he blinds em myself Natik!!! dazzles em into dementure!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

what an amazing thread. How determined and single minded some of you are. I dont like the bloke and I think that was a stupid video to publicise BUT he didnt kick the dog, he touched it with his foot. Maybe, just maybe, one of the owners problems was that if they touched the dog accidentally he flew at them so CM tried it out. We dont actually know why it happened do we. Once the dog had kicked off he had no choice but to do what he did or get badly bitten. Maybe it wasnt one of his proudest moments. If I had set a dog off like that and had to hang it to stop it biting me then I wouldnt be too proud, that is for sure - but there would be no choice at that stage. The laying on the side bit I have never seen before, it did calm the dog, dont know how it works and I wouldnt like to see it except in an emergency. To be honest, unless he had been winding the dog up a very great deal out of camera and the dog had never attacked before I would say that dog should go on a one way trip to the vets. Whatever has caused its aggression and whoever is at fault it is now a dangerous dog.
How many of you who are so against what he did have ever handled a dog that has flown at you. It is very scary and you have to make a split second decision on how to handle it. I have had to hang a dog for a moment and fling it into a run and slam the door or get badly bitten. And there is no way to keep it away from you other than what he was doing. I have had a couple of dogs fly at me in fear and in those cases a soothing word has stopped them mid leap but I was taking a calculated risk that they would stop because they had gone past the stage of physically stopping them. I think one or two people on here want to forget about their sweet fluffy dog at home and imagine a dog that WILL hurt someone (never mind why, it is the fact that it is trying to at that moment that counts).


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Thank you for the bad rep on this post Rachh!! I dont need to grow up!
> i will remember i cant have my own views when your around!


I've green blobbed you, green goes nice with red! this is why i asked would you let your child on here. back on track anyway. wouldn't let the man train a snail.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Blitz said:


> what an amazing thread. How determined and single minded some of you are. I dont like the bloke and I think that was a stupid video to publicise BUT he didnt kick the dog, he touched it with his foot. Maybe, just maybe, one of the owners problems was that if they touched the dog accidentally he flew at them so CM tried it out. We dont actually know why it happened do we. Once the dog had kicked off he had no choice but to do what he did or get badly bitten. Maybe it wasnt one of his proudest moments. If I had set a dog off like that and had to hang it to stop it biting me then I wouldnt be too proud, that is for sure - but there would be no choice at that stage. The laying on the side bit I have never seen before, it did calm the dog, dont know how it works and I wouldnt like to see it except in an emergency. To be honest, unless he had been winding the dog up a very great deal out of camera and the dog had never attacked before I would say that dog should go on a one way trip to the vets. Whatever has caused its aggression and whoever is at fault it is now a dangerous dog.
> How many of you who are so against what he did have ever handled a dog that has flown at you. It is very scary and you have to make a split second decision on how to handle it. I have had to hang a dog for a moment and fling it into a run and slam the door or get badly bitten. And there is no way to keep it away from you other than what he was doing. I have had a couple of dogs fly at me in fear and in those cases a soothing word has stopped them mid leap but I was taking a calculated risk that they would stop because they had gone past the stage of physically stopping them. I think one or two people on here want to forget about their sweet fluffy dog at home and imagine a dog that WILL hurt someone (never mind why, it is the fact that it is trying to at that moment that counts).


There is though a vast difference in a TV programme that is intended to show owners 'how' to take control of a situation and the decisions that one has to make when faced with an attacking dog, Those decisions we make in a split second ! havn't seen the video that you are all refering to maybe someone would like to point me to the link! 
DT


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> There is though a vast difference in a TV programme that is intended to show owners 'how' to take control of a situation and the decisions that one has to make when faced with an attacking dog, Those decisions we make in a split second ! havn't seen the video that you are all refering to maybe someone would like to point me to the link!
> DT


its on Nina's original post Sue, the one where hes hanging the dog, which knowing its problem he should have muzzled it so he didnt have to string it up until its tongue went blue!


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Then have a look at this one,
Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer, Proof that this Guy's a Putz « The Spirit Dog


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

I'd like to see the bit's they don't show on tv


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> I'd like to see the bit's they don't show on tv


Noooo if he can do that infront of a camera, what the hell does he get up to off screen


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> That made me laugh what breed is she?. I'll give your dog's gold star's but not Cesar sorry


She is a golden retriever and so is Chance. Why she just licked the computer screen I don't know. She did it again. She is one strange retriever. I've had to put my hamster Peanut to sleep yesterday. Are you not keen on Cesar? That's fine but me I love him. I won't be moved or rehabilitated out of likeing him easily, get it? haha. There is a joke in there somewhere, did you get it?


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Rachh said:


> as far as im concerned, people who need someone else to control their dog shouldnt have dogs in the first place.


So in your opinion if I have a dog who was brilliant as a pup, he was then jumped on many times by other dogs which turned him fear aggressive, if I needed help with him I shouldn't own a dog ?.

I've been trying to find a clip of the prat with a sheltie who was scared of the toaster and his solution was to trap it in a corner and let the toaster pop continually to ''desensitise'' it. I've never been able to find it nor did I see it when it was broadcast, can anyone have a look and see if they can find it for me PLEASE .

Terri


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> She is a golden retriever and so is Chance. Why she just licked the computer screen I don't know. She did it again. She is one strange retriever. I've had to put my hamster Peanut to sleep yesterday. Are you not keen on Cesar? That's fine but me I love him. I won't be moved or rehabilitated out of likeing him easily, get it? haha. There is a joke in there somewhere, did you get it?


yes i did get the joke. could be she like's me sorry to hear about your hamster. you can alway's pm me if you want a chat


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

danielled said:


> She is a golden retriever and so is Chance. Why she just licked the computer screen I don't know. She did it again. She is one strange retriever. I've had to put my hamster Peanut to sleep yesterday. Are you not keen on Cesar? That's fine but me I love him. I won't be moved or rehabilitated out of likeing him easily, get it? haha. There is a joke in there somewhere, did you get it?


All retrievers are strange in their own way, that what makes them special, they have character. All mine have had something that they do that you can't explain, but love them for it


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

rona said:


> Noooo if he can do that infront of a camera, what the hell does he get up to off screen


That's my point!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I would like to know whats in that black bag on the bench 
And whos third dog is that trying to launch in while cesar is strangling it? Not very helpful that is i supposse???

The nervous dog is surrounded looks like it by several dogs, by several people, camera crews in its face while being strangled and a stranger trying to kill it (in the dogs mind).... thats not really the best of surrounding and ways to "rehabilitate" a nervous dog like this.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Natik said:


> I would like to know whats in that black bag on the bench
> And whos third dog is that trying to launch in while cesar is strangling it? Not very helpful that is i supposse???
> 
> The nervous dog is surrounded looks like it by several dogs, by several people, camera crews in its face while being strangled and a stranger trying to kill it (in the dogs mind).... thats not really the best of surrounding and ways to "rehabilitate" a nervous dog like this.


Totally agree with you.

Nervous fearful dogs need to build up trust in it's human's again or whatever they are frightened of,that isn't really the way to go about it,yes you may get instant results but only because the dog shuts down,what choice do they have under those circumstances.It doesn't actually cure the problem only suppresses it and who knows when the problem will resurface and it could be with dire consequences.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> to those who have said that CM doesnt train dogs he rehabilitates them. Its the same thing!! its like saying a counciller and a psychiotrist (sp?) are completly different, they have different job titles but they need the same basic knowledge and they do pretty much the same thing!!!
> 
> 
> > Actually psychiatrists and counsellers are completely different. Psychiatrists work largely through prescribing drugs and have to be a qualified doctor in order to do so. Anybody can call themselves a counseller and practice a 'talking cure', hopefully after doing a course.


----------



## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Kinski said:


> So in your opinion if I have a dog who was brilliant as a pup, he was then jumped on many times by other dogs which turned him fear aggressive, if I needed help with him I shouldn't own a dog ?.
> 
> I've been trying to find a clip of the prat with a sheltie who was scared of the toaster and his solution was to trap it in a corner and let the toaster pop continually to ''desensitise'' it. I've never been able to find it nor did I see it when it was broadcast, can anyone have a look and see if they can find it for me PLEASE .
> 
> Terri


Prat is about right!
His method of "desensitising" dogs by flooding them makes my blood boil!! :cursing: Its a quick fix, which results in dogs shutting down, and no doubt masking the problem until it blows up in someones face late down the line (when the cameras are long gone!!)

I helped buster overcome his fear aggression to dogs but it was a very slow, patient, process so he didnt feel stress or show discomfort throughout. Its like putting an agrophobe in a room full of spiders and expecting them to just go "Oh look lots of spiders, i feel much better now!" ...you wouldnt do it, they would just be a nervous wreck! Start small and build up, why should dogs be any different.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> I've green blobbed you, green goes nice with red! this is why i asked would you let your child on here. back on track anyway. wouldn't let the man train a snail.


Thank you ..I see what you mean! Some people ay..ut:


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Then have a look at this one,
> Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer, Proof that this Guy's a Putz « The Spirit Dog


I was about the watch the video, when I saw the E-Collar coming out so he could use it on the American Bulldog I had to switch it off I can't watch that 

Only one word, barbaric


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Blitz said:


> How many of you who are so against what he did have ever handled a dog that has flown at you. It is very scary and you have to make a split second decision on how to handle it. I have had to hang a dog for a moment and fling it into a run and slam the door or get badly bitten. And there is no way to keep it away from you other than what he was doing. I have had a couple of dogs fly at me in fear and in those cases a soothing word has stopped them mid leap but I was taking a calculated risk that they would stop because they had gone past the stage of physically stopping them. I think one or two people on here want to forget about their sweet fluffy dog at home and imagine a dog that WILL hurt someone (never mind why, it is the fact that it is trying to at that moment that counts).


iv had a couple of dogs leap at me, i turned my back and the dogs left it at that. in dog language, unless the dog has been taught to be aggressive, a calming signal is enough 99% of the time. no need to resort to strangling. and having watched that episode before yes he did kick the dog, it wasnt a full on kick but it was a jab, also there was no need for it at the time, IMO he did it just to set the dog off so he could show off that he could strangle it into submission.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> Actually psychiatrists and counsellers are completely different. Psychiatrists work largely through prescribing drugs and have to be a qualified doctor in order to do so. Anybody can call themselves a counseller and practice a 'talking cure', hopefully after doing a course.


What i meant was that they both need to be able to spot and understand the same symptoms, they might use different methods to cure it in this case but they still need to understand the same things.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I helped buster overcome his fear aggression to dogs but it was a very slow, patient, process so he didnt feel stress or show discomfort throughout.


That's what I had to do with Arran, so many dogs pounced on him when he was a pup he ended up with fear aggression, the dogs were being friendly but he didn't know that, it's taken me the best part of a year to get him to the stage where he won't try and attack other dogs that run at him. Maybe I should have just kicked him and tried to strangle him, that of course would have solved alllllllllll his problems within about 10 mins.

Terri


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> iv had a couple of dogs leap at me, i turned my back and the dogs left it at that. in dog language, unless the dog has been taught to be aggressive, a calming signal is enough 99% of the time. no need to resort to strangling. and having watched that episode before yes he did kick the dog, it wasnt a full on kick but it was a jab, also there was no need for it at the time, IMO he did it just to set the dog off so he could show off that he could strangle it into submission.


it depends on the dog and why it is attacking. If you have set it off then turning your back might well work. If it is really meaning to get you then you are braver than me to give it a chance to reach you.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Kinski said:


> That's what I had to do with Arran, so many dogs pounced on him when he was a pup he ended up with fear aggression, the dogs were being friendly but he didn't know that, it's taken me the best part of a year to get him to the stage where he won't try and attack other dogs that run at him. Maybe I should have just kicked him and tried to strangle him, that of course would have solved alllllllllll his problems within about 10 mins.
> 
> Terri


Savahi & myself could have recommended a trainer to do just that


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> yes i did get the joke. could be she like's me sorry to hear about your hamster. you can alway's pm me if you want a chat


I think she does like you because she only licks the screen when I tell her it's you replying to me or if she sees I'm writing back to you. See, she did it again. Dixie you are cute but I need the screen. That's her name, Dixie. Dixie is great with Chance. The shelter called her Dixie. Thank you for giving me permission to pm you. I might need to.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> I think she does like you because she only licks the screen when I tell her it's you replying to me or if she sees I'm writing back to you. See, she did it again. Dixie you are cute but I need the screen. That's her name, Dixie. Dixie is great with Chance. The shelter called her Dixie. Thank you for giving me permission to pm you. I might need to.


I like the name Dixie, pm anytime


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Shouldnt have tapped its behind with his foot then should he!! Well all know you dont approach a dog from behind even more so if its already aggressive and nervouse!!!
> 
> Strangling a dog is no way to carm it down is it???
> 
> ...


If he had approached horse from behind then he would have been kicked. That hurts too let me tell you. I've been kicked for no reason by a horse when I was grooming him that's how I know. Dogs don't hurt half as much as horses.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Rachh said:


> well in future, dont


Argumentative? ut:


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

danielled said:


> If he had approached horse from behind then he would have been kicked. That hurts too let me tell you. I've been kicked for no reason by a horse when I was grooming him that's how I know. Dogs don't hurt half as much as horses.


Yes i have been kicked by a pony!! i have also been kicked by deer!! so i know it hurts!!

But horses and dogs are different animals!! and not all horses would lash out and kick for no reason..

imo he deserved it he approached a fear ful dog from behind then punished the dog in the most vile way!!

He caused the problem and all the problems that dog will suffer behaviour wise in the futhur will be because of cesar but who will care?? No one because he will have had his bit of lime light!!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Diane&Mac said:


> Argumentative? ut:


And full of themselves


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes i have been kicked by a pony!! i have also been kicked by deer!! so i know it hurts!!
> 
> But horses and dogs are different animals!! and not all horses would lash out and kick for no reason..
> 
> ...


I think we can safely say that a horse would hurt more than a dog. I know they are two different animals but they both have four legs and one is bigger than the other. I don't think he deserved it. I believe Cesar is misunderstood in my opinion.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> I think we can safely say that a horse would hurt more than a dog. I know they are two different animals but they both have four legs and one is bigger than the other. I don't think he deserved it. I believe Cesar is misunderstood in my opinion.


I'd love to see Cesar try and 'train' a horse in the same way he's 'trained' those dogs! :yesnod:


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

danielled said:


> I think we can safely say that a horse would hurt more than a dog. I know they are two different animals but they both have four legs and one is bigger than the other. I don't think he deserved it. I believe Cesar is misunderstood in my opinion.


But i dont really understand what your trying to say!! Because we are talking about dogs not horses CM works with dogs not horses!

Both animals are completly different in the way they are trained and cared for so we really cant compare the two to the methods CM uses!


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes i have been kicked by a pony!! i have also been kicked by deer!! so i know it hurts!!
> 
> But horses and dogs are different animals!! and not all horses would lash out and kick for no reason..
> 
> ...


Jus wondering ? If that was a child that had approached the dog from behind and the dog did to the child what he did to CM what would you say then ?? what would you have done to reprimand the dog ?

CM IMO was making a point by what he did to the dog in question to try and teach it that what it did to him ( or anyone else ) was unacceptable behavior.
It got told off by , Yes perhaps restricting its breathing for a SHORT while, but only because he had to or he would have been severely hurt by the dog.

What would you have done in that situation ??? sometimes in situations such as this one a dog has to be handled with a bit of , dare I say, force as they are strong animals and can cause serious harm by attacking like this.

I like CM and do not think his methods are all that bad . He does not use this kind of approach all the time and believe in this case it was necessary . The dog had to be taught or it may have ended up severely hurting someone .

Also CM gets my vote as any person who can let a pack of 20-30 plus dogs or whatever run together and not fight , even if an other dog is introduced to them, is very clever indeed.

I think at times people forget that dogs are not people , they are animals and even though I love my dogs to bits and never miss treat them in anyway , this should allways be remembered . If a dog is not repremanded for agressive behavior it will only get worse. By holding the dog by the lead and collar the way CM did prevented it biting and showed it that CM was stronger . Yes I do believe in the pack leader thing even though it is dog and human against each other.

Some people have said that he kicks the dogs, he does not , it is a small tap or nudge. You would do the same to a Horse although stronger and I know they are different animals but they are animals !! and if they kick people they would also be reprimanded in some way or other depending on whether it was induced by fright or just sheer bad temper or every time someone went behind them they would just do the same thing .
Pussy footing around such a thing like that does not solve the problem . (have you watched Monte Roberts and Pat Pirelli ? ) I expect some people would say they were cruel as they chase the horses with sticks and flap "monsters " at the horses to stop them being frightened !?
Even if he did triger of the attack it was only done so that he ,CM ,could correct the agressive reactions of the dog.

Look at the way the dogs are with him in the programmes , do they cower away from him after he has done his thing ? no they are quite calm and stay beside him without being forced to do so. They are not being forced to sit and behave just for the cameras or they would indeed be very clever if people made them do this, they listen to him they respect him , he teaches the owners how to handle their dogs. And any way going by what the owners say after the initial " telling off " given by CM, the dog never has to be reprimanded in that way again and is more manageable and that is what it is all about.

If the dogs he handles were frightned by him they would run away from him and stay well clear and if you say that it is all edited for TV that is nonsence yes perhaps the time is edited and it does take a bit longer than they say , so what ?

CM also educates the dog owners by explaining what he is doing and why and the majority of the times it is owners who have caused the problems in the first place by letting their dogs rule the roost so to speak and not stoping bad behavior right from the word go.

Goodness what a rant I have had but then this is a place to air your views !!

Pleas be gentle with your replys to my post or I might just cry hmy:but I do think that everyone is entitled to their say and well I have had my say 

And he is handsome just a weeeee bit short , and what lovley teeth he has !!:001_tt2:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> CM IMO was making a point by what he did to the dog in question to try and teach it that what it did to him ( or anyone else ) was unacceptable behavior.
> It got told off by , Yes perhaps restricting its breathing for a SHORT while, but only because he had to or he would have been severely hurt by the dog.


You do not need to make a dog aggressive to prove a point! You also should not reprimand a dog when YOU are the one that set it off deliberately!

It's my opinion that dogs should be trained properly and children should be taught how to act aorund dogs so this scenario will never happen!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I can honestly say i have not read this post all the way through. In fact i have not long started to try too. But i have read a lot of them.

I now have read enough!!! I do not agree with this ''trainers'' methods. I would never say anything against anybody who liked his way of 'dealing' with dogs. But i have living proof that these so called ''training'' technique's don't work. 

My boy has so many issues, still has and, sadly, i think always will. If i raised my voice a little in the same room (not even at him, ever) he used to squirt urine submissively. Even now it is occasionally  If i ever tried to take his neck area (i have only gone for his collar when he was about to run off under the fence when i first had him home) he yelps and curls up. Just the start. His many owners wanted to be ''pack leader''

If you have ever experienced anything like this it is absolutely heartbreaking. 

I can say i don't watch his programmes. But to me it is all about ''submission'' and the human 'ruling the roost' my boy is part of my family, he now is learning rules, taught to him in reward based methods. And he is slowly grasping them. I don't care how long it takes him, of if he even does learn these rules fully, i would protect him, from ever being that scared again. 

Some might say ''what if a dog is aggressive?'' fine, good point, but before Ceaser, most other pet dogs did just great if not better (certainly happier) with reward based, patient dog trainers????? It might well take months but surely a dog, any dog (or animal in that fact) deserve's to learn ''society'' rules, as humanely as possible??? Nothing should ever have to feel scared or intimidated. And as humans we can stop this with all of our pets if we chose too.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

I am going to put my two pennenth in again!!! (for the tenth time). First! I am not, ever have been and never shall be a CM fan!

All yhe comments I have mae on this thread were made prior to watching the clip!

Well now I have watched it!! Over and over and over!! And to be honest I cannot see a obvious kick! Yes! He did jab the dog with his foot! And for the life of me I cannot see why! The dog did not appear to be doing anything that needed checking in my opinion!
So I ask why? was CM just trying to assert his position prior to any undesirable behaviour being displayed? What ever the reason as others have said approaching/checking a dog from behind , especially an unknown one is a big no no!! And an irresponbile move to make!
And as for the handling of this dog following the foot jab!! What we saw then was CM panicking!! I think he handled the situation badly! And am amazed that he has allowed this to be shown myself!
Had a person of less strength been in this situation and followed CMs lead the y would almost certainly have been badly bitten as the behavoir CM displayed was both confrontional and aggressive and could quite easily have provoked a frenzied attach had he have been unsuccessful in holding onto the dog! Albeit I can see that his reactions were based on instinct! 
So I will ask! What exactly would YOU have done had you have been in the same situation as CM!
Myself! I would never have jabbed at the dog on the first place, If I had needed to check I would have first HALTED! Maybe the situation did not allow but when the dog had started the attack I would have totally turned my back on him, and rock stood still with my hands tucked into my armpits and my elbows in! OK you say this would have been irresponsible as it would have meant dropping the leash! But many people would not have succeeded in holding onto it anyway!
Just curious as to what you would have done if in this situation yourself!
DT


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

I would not have allowed the situation to occur in the first place.

All the video's I have watched I can clearly see the dogs fear,yet according to him it's dominance - absolute rubbish!

As for his pack of dogs - watch them,they are like robots,they do not display any natural dog behaviour,nor do you ever see them playing, probably because he's broken their spirit.

There is no need to poke,nudge,tap or string dogs up,watch other trainers,i.e Ian Dunbar,he never touches a dog when training.

He pushes and pushes dogs,he doesn't read their body language or he would clearly see the dog is stressed out,or he doesn't care.
He tries to copy the language other dogs give off,he can't do it,he's not a dog and dogs don't see him as a dog,just someone to be fearful of.

A dog trained through fear is highly likely to be unpredictable,an unpredictable dog is dangerous.

If any of us did that to a dog in the street and it was witnessed we would be on cruelty charges!
I think he's disgusting,a trainer,rehabilitater my A**e.He's a bully,dogs fear him,watch their body language,it's very clear for all to see!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

danielled said:


> If he had approached horse from behind then he would have been kicked. That hurts too let me tell you. I've been kicked for no reason by a horse when I was grooming him that's how I know. Dogs don't hurt half as much as horses.


I dont think you see many people in hospital undergoing plastic surgery after a horse attack. A dog in the attack mode will hurt you far far more than a horse that lashes out while you are grooming it!
And approaching a horse from behind is completely different from approaching a dog from behind.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Look at the way the dogs are with him in the programmes , do they cower away from him after he has done his thing ? no they are quite calm and stay beside him without being forced to do so.
> 
> And he is handsome just a weeeee bit short , and what lovley teeth he has !!:001_tt2:


In my mind and I don't know a great deal about dog training, the dogs that do that are appeasing him, they have learnt very quickly that if they sit and stay where they are then this wee insipid man won't cause them any more pain.
Sorry but in no way is he handsome and if I had the money he makes out of abusing dogs then I could afford to have teeth like that.

For anyone interested in learning a wee bit about canine body language I can recommend a book with that title by Brenda Aloff, I should send a copy to Milan he could learn a lot from it .

Terri


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

I am a strong believer in disaster prevention over what i would describe as "fire fighting"; preventing situations like this occuring while you work towards dealing with it, rather than dealing with it as and when the occur! I dont think making the dog react in this way, in this case by setting it off with a tap/kick/whatever, helps anything - just stresses the dog out unessesarily. His methods, in my honest opinion, just create a fearful dog, and by forcing them to supress their natural reaction creates a ticking timebomb. 

For example.
Instances where he has "punished"/alpha rolled a dog for growling at something/someone...why?? I want buster to growl at situation that make him uncomfortable...it tells me in no uncertain terms that he is unhappy. Forcing him to supress this urge/teach him growling is a bad thing will just remove the warning signs and possibly skip to step 2...a bite! 
So, if he growls at say a child, I know he isnt happy with the child being there or doing whatever it is the child is doing. We can remove the child from the situation until it is resolved later down the line and he is happy being around children, through a series of positive associations and desenstisation in small bites to build his confidence. Punish him for growling at the child, and how do we know he is uncomfortable in this situation? until he bites someone!


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I am a strong believer in disaster prevention over what i would describe as "fire fighting"; preventing situations like this occuring while you work towards dealing with it, rather than dealing with it as and when the occur! I dont think making the dog react in this way, in this case by setting it off with a tap/kick/whatever, helps anything - just stresses the dog out unessesarily. His methods, in my honest opinion, just create a fearful dog, and by forcing them to supress their natural reaction creates a ticking timebomb.
> 
> For example.
> Instances where he has "punished"/alpha rolled a dog for growling at something/someone...why?? I want buster to growl at situation that make him uncomfortable...it tells me in no uncertain terms that he is unhappy. Forcing him to supress this urge/teach him growling is a bad thing will just remove the warning signs and possibly skip to step 2...a bite!
> So, if he growls at say a child, I know he isnt happy with the child being there or doing whatever it is the child is doing. We can remove the child from the situation until it is resolved later down the line and he is happy being around children, through a series of positive associations and desenstisation in small bites to build his confidence. Punish him for growling at the child, and how do we know he is uncomfortable in this situation? until he bites someone!


Great post,totally agree.

A growl is a warning that should be taken notice of,stop the growling and you have no warning that the dog is not happy with the situation and as you rightly pointed out a bite or attack could happen with no warning whatsoever.

So a question is CM contributing to dog bites with his outdated methods by surpressing natural behaviour of dogs ?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Great post,totally agree.
> 
> A growl is a warning that should be taken notice of,stop the growling and you have no warning that the dog is not happy with the situation and as you rightly pointed out a bite or attack could happen with no warning whatsoever.
> 
> So a question is CM contributing to dog bites with his outdated methods by surpressing natural behaviour of dogs ?


I've tried to watch most clips I can't with some though, especially where the shock collars are involved 

Unknowingly he probably is contributing to a lot of unwanted behaviour, how many times is the dogs progress after he's been to "sort" them out is followed up on ? Probably it isn't ? Of course I am assuming and I can only go on what I have seen, but how on earth the man can call himself a doglover is beyond me and I personally can wait to see his programme taken of the air, I know it says "Do not attempt to do anything you see on this programme" but how many owners actually ignore that advice ?

I find that very worrying.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Great post,totally agree.
> 
> A growl is a warning that should be taken notice of,stop the growling and you have no warning that the dog is not happy with the situation and as you rightly pointed out a bite or attack could happen with no warning whatsoever.
> 
> So a question is CM contributing to dog bites with his outdated methods by surpressing natural behaviour of dogs ?


We dont know what happens once the cameras leave, but I do believe that _supressing_ natural reactions to things [out of fear for example] will only end badly somewhere along the line. Training these behaviours out by addressing the issue, removing the need to react in that way (i.e. over a period building confidence to remove the fear/anxiety or whatever, within the dogs comfort zone)


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I dont think you see many people in hospital undergoing plastic surgery after a horse attack. A dog in the attack mode will hurt you far far more than a horse that lashes out while you are grooming it!
> And approaching a horse from behind is completely different from approaching a dog from behind.


Oh you'd be surpried. I know lots of people who have been in hospital due to horse injuries. It's not the breed of dog like Cesar says. It's he way the dog is trained. He wants to help dogs that's all he wants to do. Just give him a chance.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> But i dont really understand what your trying to say!! Because we are talking about dogs not horses CM works with dogs not horses!
> 
> Both animals are completly different in the way they are trained and cared for so we really cant compare the two to the methods CM uses!


I'm not saying it right. I know they are both trained in different ways. Ok your right we can't compare the two methods he uses, horse wise. If I were in Cesear's shoes with the dog I would have checked the dog with the choke chain. I was just stateing that a horse would hurt more than a dog but forget I said that. I wasn't with it as I have had to put my hamster to sleep the other day. Forget I mentioned horses ok? can I try again?


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Crikey dont think some people agree with disciplining animals fullstop here! If the dog is going to react like that what happens when its a child that does it? I think Cesar has a wonderful understanding of dog behaviour, you only have to see that reflected in the dogs he has himself and the ones he has helped, i think they speak for themselves no matter what anyone says. I dont think he's cruel at all. 

Someone mentioned this kind of work with horses, well i can tell you none of mine kick they'd get well and truelly thumped if they did because its dangerous and they could potentially kill/seriously injure someone, it doesnt make them nervous animals. Im no animal behaviour expert but Id trust cesar with any of my animals I think he has a briliant calm but assertive attitude with them.

I understand this is emotive subject and have seen a few insults flying around which is sad, this should be a healthy debate and all opinions respected.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Jus wondering ? If that was a child that had approached the dog from behind and the dog did to the child what he did to CM what would you say then ?? what would you have done to reprimand the dog ?
> 
> CM IMO was making a point by what he did to the dog in question to try and teach it that what it did to him ( or anyone else ) was unacceptable behavior.
> It got told off by , Yes perhaps restricting its breathing for a SHORT while, but only because he had to or he would have been severely hurt by the dog.
> ...


I do agree with alot of what you said just now. Your right everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> I'm not saying it right. I know they are both trained in different ways. Ok your right we can't compare the two methods he uses, horse wise. If I were in Cesear's shoes with the dog I would have checked the dog with the choke chain. I was just stateing that a horse would hurt more than a dog but forget I said that. I wasn't with it as I have had to put my hamster to sleep the other day. Forget I mentioned horses ok? can I try again?


You dont need to ask to have another say  Just put your views across!!

But im not going to be part of debate any more..All im doing is just repeating myself.When really there is know need lol..
My views wont change, your views wont change and no ones elese will either!


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

crofty said:


> Crikey dont think some people agree with disciplining animals fullstop here! If the dog is going to react like that what happens when its a child that does it? I think Cesar has a wonderful understanding of dog behaviour, you only have to see that reflected in the dogs he has himself and the ones he has helped, i think they speak for themselves no matter what anyone says. I dont think he's cruel at all.
> 
> Someone mentioned this kind of work with horses, well i can tell you none of mine kick they'd get well and truelly thumped if they did because its dangerous and they could potentially kill/seriously injure someone, it doesnt make them nervous animals. Im no animal behaviour expert but Id trust cesar with any of my animals I think he has a briliant calm but assertive attitude with them.
> 
> I understand this is emotive subject and have seen a few insults flying around which is sad, this should be a healthy debate and all opinions respected.


It was me who mentioned being kicked by a horse. I had that bruise for 5 weeks. I agree with you, Cesar is not cruel to dogs. I've not been with it as the other day I had to put my hamster to sleep. Your right this should be a healthy debate. You have my support on that.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

crofty said:


> Crikey dont think some people agree with disciplining animals fullstop here! If the dog is going to react like that what happens when its a child that does it?


No child of mine would ever be allowed to treat a dog or any animal the way he does,ever.CM has been bitten countless time and in my opinion it serves him damn well right!
My kids have been brought up to repect animals and treat them accordingly.They are Humans,dogs are dogs etc.
There is no way we can copy a dogs body language,dogs are not as stupid,they know we are not dogs and they can't always read our body language it's totally different to theirs so why should we expect them to ?

So why don't CM's dog show any natural dog behaviour,why do they never play ?
Does he ever advise owners to seek vet advice before telling owners about what exercise they should give their dogs,what about overweight,lame dogs ?
I haven't seen any evidence of this have you ?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> No child of mine would ever be allowed to treat a dog or any animal the way he does,ever.CM has been bitten countless time and in my opinion it serves him damn well right!
> My kids have been brought up to repect animals and treat them accordingly.They are Humans,dogs are dogs etc.
> There is no way we can copy a dogs body language,dogs are not as stupid,they know we are not dogs and they can't always read our body language it's totally different to theirs so why should we expect them to ?


Also, I would add that if it is a child that doesnt belong to you (and may not be used to dogs), you manage the situation. You dont allow kids to sneak up / poke at/ nudge/ pull about a dog you know has these issues...its common sense. Dont put the dog, or child, in that situation. And even after the dog has recovered, if you achieve this, still manage the situation with children carefully to stop any old behaviours resurfacing.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> yes i did get the joke. could be she like's me sorry to hear about your hamster. you can alway's pm me if you want a chat


I'm always having a laugh with people. Dixie is licking the screen again. There is one thing I will say to her, Down. That worked. Oh I spoke to soon. She is doing it again. Later.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Always is if you dont agree with them!!! DD isnt bothered she has her own views and shes sticking to them!!! I can accept others views no problem seems others cant!! Cant even answer question i ask just come back with silly little remarks and bad rep!! Whats rep going to do...erm not alot haha


I still like Cesar Millan. I know every episode by heart. One of his first dogs he rehabilitated on the show was called Nunu. He was a chuauah.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Also, I would add that if it is a child that doesnt belong to you (and may not be used to dogs), you manage the situation. You dont allow kids to sneak up / poke at/ nudge/ pull about a dog you know has these issues...its common sense. Dont put the dog, or child, in that situation. And even after the dog has recovered, if you achieve this, still manage the situation with children carefully to stop any old behaviours resurfacing.


When we first had our boy i had to drill into my daughter that he isn't like the others dogs she knows. She has to be very gentle with him etc etc

He had never lived with young children so he had a lot to deal with!! But he did it so well, i honestly believe that if i used any of CM's techniques then he would been a lot worse.

I just can not see the need to help your dog become 'a good citizen' by making him submissive and scared.
When i first noticed CM i have to say i thought that it would be a great programme i didn't have sky tv so i couldn't actually watch it unless i went to my dads house etc

But once i realised his methods were damaging the dogs mental state my opinion changed. Beacsue that what it does. 
On telly to viewers this man works wonders he has 'cured' that dogs aggression/possesive/dominant problem, but in reality he has scared the bejesus out of them and the dog has shut down to become a robot. It might well be the dog isn't aggressive anymore but his mental state and health have gone down the pan..................is that fair??? Or is it nice???

Regardless what problem a dog has there is absolutely no need to do this to poor animal. They obviously have an issue that is causing them deep stress ofr them to behave like that.
Get to the root of the problem then work your way to solving it. CM doesn't ''solve'' problems in dogs he *masks over* them.

The world of dog training manged perfectly fine without him. Aggressive extremely dangerous dogs were turned into great family dogs and gold citizens. All of this acheived with and understanding of dog behaviour, getting to the root of the problem, using reward based methods and encourgement, patience and great passion for dogs and their welfare. So it can be, and still is done, without the need for e-collars, hanging, alpha-rolling etc


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> I still like Cesar Millan. I know every episode by heart. One of his first dogs he rehabilitated on the show was called Nunu. He was a chuauah.


And your aloud your own views if that means you like him its fine by me!!

He has a chinese crested that i want to steal


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I hate the man but he has some of the most gorgeous dogs I've ever seen if I had my way I would own Daddy and Junior and maybe half of the gsds.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> And your aloud your own views if that means you like him its fine by me!!
> 
> He has a chinese crested that i want to steal


Awww does he? What his own? He has fair dogs of his own. x


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

He has Louis the Chinese Crested one of the doggy stars of the show definately:
Cesar Millan - Pack Profiles - Archive
Just some of the dogs in the pack and that the crew etc own


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Awww does he? What his own? He has fair dogs of his own. x


Yes he does have a black and white hairless :001_wub: Janice did tell me the name but i forgot it 

He does have a lot of dogs..a right mix too


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Louis' profile Cesar Millan - Pack Profiles - Louis kind of cute but I don't really like the hairless variety.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Louis' profile Cesar Millan - Pack Profiles - Louis kind of cute but I don't really like the hairless variety.


Gorgeous dog!!:blushing: :blushing: need his face shaved though


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Well it's not like he's a show dog or anything. I actually think he hasn't got him anymore gave him to someone maybe they wanted him to help pick a new dog or something and Louis was perfect.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Well it's not like he's a show dog or anything. I actually think he hasn't got him anymore gave him to someone maybe they wanted him to help pick a new dog or something and Louis was perfect.


The stubble grows into their eyes!! No matter if showed or not it needs taking off!! 
May be he dont have it any longer i dont know anything about the dog just that its cute!!!


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Ah see I have no idea how you groom chinese cresteds but it might just be that picture I think he normally has a shaved face in the show he takes him along a lot.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Get to the root of the problem then work your way to solving it. CM doesn't ''solve'' problems in dogs he *masks over* them.
> 
> The world of dog training manged perfectly fine without him. Aggressive extremely dangerous dogs were turned into great family dogs and gold citizens. All of this acheived with and understanding of dog behaviour, getting to the root of the problem, using reward based methods and encourgement, patience and great passion for dogs and their welfare. So it can be, and still is done, without the need for e-collars, hanging, alpha-rolling etc


Absolutely spot on :smilewinkgrin:


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

Actually not spot on. 
They are about to enter the 6 season - 6 years that the show has been showing with hundreds of dogs and their owners helped with long term solutions that the owners could NOT get help from by other trainers. From the beginning, this has been a requirement to even get on the show - exhaustion of local "professional" help, and a through physical examination to rule out illness as a contributor.

It is ironic to me when people refuse to read the documentation by those dog's owners which are in the followup stories of the Dog Whisperer Season 1-3 Episode guide, not read through thousands of success stories on my open archive email list, or even look at the dogs that I have saved from being euthanized sometimes literally as the next dog up, by using Cesar's technqiues in a safe and effective way to rehab, then re-home those dogs.

But then~
there are so many people out there that would rather see those dogs euthanized then have problem behaviors changed so they can live long and happy lives.

Just last night, was an episode showing how Cesar worked for months to help a terrified dobie-greyhound mix that the local trainers could not help. This dog changed completely to a happy dog no longer spending his life cowering under the desk at every sound made.

Shortly after Cesar's last visit, it was discovered that this dog had bone cancer, a battle he recently lost.

I volunteer as a therapy dog team and public speaker for hospice to educate others about living, and dying with cancer. The tears in my eyes as I saw the final comments up on the screen - was NOT because this dog died of a disease consuming 52% of pets alive today (Animal Wellness June 06).

My tears were that thisrescued, once fearful dog, got to experience life as happy, fun, and full of wonderful experiences shared with her owner.

You can see episodes on hulu.com, joost and fancast.com or go to the Dog whisperer website on National Geographic channel to watch clips on how Cesar has dealt with many dog problems for free:
Dog Whisperer | National Geographic Channel
Hulu - Dog Whisperer: Stanley, Shoven and Leo - Watch the full episode now.

Originally Posted by Acacia86 
Get to the root of the problem then work your way to solving it. CM doesn't ''solve'' problems in dogs he masks over them.

The world of dog training manged perfectly fine without him. Aggressive extremely dangerous dogs were turned into great family dogs and gold citizens. All of this acheived with and understanding of dog behaviour, getting to the root of the problem, using reward based methods and encourgement, patience and great passion for dogs and their welfare. So it can be, and still is done, without the need for e-collars, hanging, alpha-rolling etc



sallyanne said:


> Absolutely spot on :smilewinkgrin:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CJAnderson said:


> Actually not spot on.
> They are about to enter the 6 season - 6 years that the show has been showing with hundreds of dogs and their owners helped with long term solutions that the owners could NOT get help from by other trainers. From the beginning, this has been a requirement to even get on the show - exhaustion of local "professional" help, and a through physical examination to rule out illness as a contributor.
> 
> It is ironic to me when people refuse to read the documentation by those dog's owners which are in the followup stories of the Dog Whisperer Season 1-3 Episode guide, not read through thousands of success stories on my open archive email list, or even look at the dogs that I have saved from being euthanized sometimes literally as the next dog up, by using Cesar's technqiues in a safe and effective way to rehab, then re-home those dogs.
> ...


I hope you're not trying to insinuate that the people against Cesar are those types who want dogs euthanised


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I just don't get why someone would want their already scared (hence the reason for most aggression problems) dog to be ''Alpha-rolled, hung by the collar, used e-collars on etc

I saw a clip on here with CM using and E-Collar on a dog that was possesive over food. You couldn't go near the bowl. How scared was that dog????? Seriouly you can not tell me that dog was happy or comfortable????
I live a on tiny Island and we have better trainers than that..................

His methods can be so outdated, ''dominance over the dog'' and all that! I mean yeah my boy is getting to know his rules but i do not and will not ever ''dominate'' him into any kind of submission. I want my boy to be truly and utterly *happy* and stable in mental health. My boy was so submissive when he came to me, and still is occasionally, he leaks urine when he feels even a little scared. How can any dog owner wish this on their dogs???? He gets very very upset by it and has not long realised i won't hurt him for doing it. After 6 months i am gaining his trust more and more. But i still have many many issues with him. But i am patient, understanding and use rewards based methods. So at the end of it all, i am happy, but more importantly he will have 100% trust in humans again, be happy, be trained and be mentally stable!

After having to deal with my boy the way he was, i would rather do a round the world marathon than let him near my pets.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I hope you're not trying to insinuate that the people against Cesar are those types who want dogs euthanised


Thanks Sequeena i forgot that bit.


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I would not have allowed the situation to occur in the first place.
> You may be able to prevent and teach your own children how to act around dogs but other peoples children or even adults may not be as well informed
> 
> All the video's I have watched I can clearly see the dogs fear,yet according to him it's dominance - absolute rubbish!
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> sallyanne said:
> 
> 
> > I would not have allowed the situation to occur in the first place.
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> As I asked before ,if you had a dog and it went for you , which could happen even if you think your dog would never do such a thing , how would you react, how would you prevent it from attacking you ? If you walked in to somones home and their dog went for you what would you do would you run away or would you reprimand it in some way ? or have you been lucky enough not to have ever been in that situation and never had to reprimand a dog ? Sometimes a firm NO ! does not work and other methods HAVE to be used It does not mean you are being cruel !


I have never been in that position so can't tell you how I would react,however my son was attacked badly by a large powerful rescue dog,we removed the dog from the situation,put him outside whilst we sorted out my son with emergency treatment,the dog was pts.
If I walked into someones house and a dog went for me then No One thing is for sure I would not run that is the worst thing you can do.Dogs usually have a reason for trying to bite so I would try and work out why the dog is behaving in such a manner,whether that be fear etc.
Yes I have repremanded my dogs however I only need to raise my voice,I don't need to kick,poke,tap,strangle them with leads,or use shock collars nor would I ever.

The day I turn to those such methods is the day I give up dog ownership.

I agree other methods can be used but there is absolutely no need to hang dogs with their leads or use shock collars etc.
I had an aggressive fearful dog come back to us,a dog we bred at no point did we use any of CM's methods that would have pushed the poor dog right over the edge.



lilacbabe said:


> Did you see the show that had a reunion of all the dogs and owners he had helped ? all the dogs were pleased to see him and he was very emotional so he is a caring dog lover . He just has to be firm with some dogs it may look a bit worrying but he is doing it for the welfare of the dog and the owners are all gratefull for his help.


Sorry I don't make a habit of watching him or his programmes,I don't subscribe to cruelty in any way shape or form.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> lilacbabe said:
> 
> 
> > With a greater understanding of behavior, today's behaviorists and trainers are now using positive methods to modify even the most extreme behaviors in dogs with great results. This includes dogs with severe aggression problems that may be facing euthanasia, or "red zone" dogs.
> ...


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> No child of mine would ever be allowed to treat a dog or any animal the way he does,ever.CM has been bitten countless time and in my opinion it serves him damn well right!
> My kids have been brought up to repect animals and treat them accordingly.They are Humans,dogs are dogs etc.
> There is no way we can copy a dogs body language,dogs are not as stupid,they know we are not dogs and they can't always read our body language it's totally different to theirs so why should we expect them to ?
> 
> ...


Of course i would not let children do what CM does, he is assessing the dogs attitude to something that happens alot with children and dogs, if you have a dog in your home you cannot keep your eye on them for every sec and as alot of people will say its that sec you take your eye off them that accidents happen which isnt the dogs fault but its something they need to be told is not acceptable. Anyone that has a dog and doesnt think it needs exercise is irresponsible in my opinion, once you decide to own any animal it should be thoroughly researched first, ignorance is never an excuse.

Its normally pretty obvious when a dog is lame and he does state at the beginning of every programme these techniques are not to be copied by people that do not know what they are doing. Maybe you should write to him and ask him whether they have veterinary examination before training? Ive seen countless programs where he allows the dogs to play with his group of dogs and encourages it?

From what Ive seen its CM showing people how to read their dogs body language and to react accordingly not the other way around. At the end of the day what evidence does anyone have that he has caused more problems... all ive seen is dogs that have clearly benefitted and have avoided been chucked in some rescue centre or put down.

Of course this is only my opinion based on what i have seen, im not about to get into an argument with anyone over it!! lol All my animals and my parents animals are very well behaved, appropriate discipline has never done them any harm and has worked. They are healthy happy nice animals, which is what matters.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Okay here is another one for the Milan Lovers and Haters LOL. Now imo all I see is a very over excited Pitbull who has tail wagging, maybe not socialised properly with other dogs but in no way Dog Aggressive. Listen to the noise it is making!!! No growling etc...
Maybe he ran out of Red Zone dogs to make this vid lol
Dog Whisperer: Cesar&#39;s Toughest Cases - MSN Video


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

crofty said:


> Of course i would not let children do what CM does, he is assessing the dogs attitude to something that happens alot with children and dogs, if you have a dog in your home you cannot keep your eye on them for every sec and as alot of people will say its that sec you take your eye off them that accidents happen which isnt the dogs fault but its something they need to be told is not acceptable.


Which is a part of why I had crates and trained mine,If I can't supervise them ALL of the time the dogs are crated.


crofty said:


> Anyone that has a dog and doesnt think it needs exercise is irresponsible in my opinion, once you decide to own any animal it should be thoroughly researched first, ignorance is never an excuse.


I agree,however I have never said no dog shouldn't be exercised,however before CM insists on exercise he should seek vet advice especially for lame or overweight dogs,as again to much can be dangerous to the dog.



crofty said:


> Its normally pretty obvious when a dog is lame and he does state at the beginning of every programme these techniques are not to be copied by people that do not know what they are doing. Maybe you should write to him and ask him whether they have veterinary examination before training? Ive seen countless programs where he allows the dogs to play with his group of dogs and encourages it?


I've seen his dogs greet others,however I have yet to see them play as in witnessing dogs playing in the park or the way mine do in the garden.Those dogs are like robots and in MY opinion do not show normal behaviour which I would expect to see.



crofty said:


> From what Ive seen its CM showing people how to read their dogs body language and to react accordingly not the other way around. At the end of the day what evidence does anyone have that he has caused more problems... all ive seen is dogs that have clearly benefitted and have avoided been chucked in some rescue centre or put down.


CM can't read dogs language,he puts everything down to dominance,even fear is dominance.
Are you saying that CM is the only trainer that has helped dogs so they have not been PTS,I would dispute that.
Other trainers deal with problem dogs to,but they deal with the issue,not by making the dog shut down by flooding,using shock collars or stringing them up with their leads.



crofty said:


> Of course this is only my opinion based on what i have seen, im not about to get into an argument with anyone over it!! lol All my animals and my parents animals are very well behaved, appropriate discipline has never done them any harm and has worked. They are healthy happy nice animals, which is what matters.


Good,your are entitled to your opinion,as I am mine,my opinion of CM won't change.
I have dealt with a fearful dog who showed aggression,I didn't need to resort to bully boy tactics to resolve his issues.Plenty of people including those in the breed advised us to have him PTS,we didn't we worked with him,it took a very long time to sort him out,we did it and then rehomed him.
He's had a long and happy life with his new owner.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Well it's not like he's a show dog or anything. I actually think he hasn't got him anymore gave him to someone maybe they wanted him to help pick a new dog or something and Louis was perfect.


Cesar was helping a man who was scared of dogs nad in the endthey got a dog and that dog was Louis. Listen guys, this will be my last post on this debate. It's nothing any of you have said. So don't think you have upset me because you haven't ok? If you want me to explain why I won't be posting on this debate anymore, please feel free to pm me. Please be gentle if you do pm me as I'm going through a sad time at the minute.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> And your aloud your own views if that means you like him its fine by me!!
> 
> He has a chinese crested that i want to steal


He doesn't have the chinese crested anymore and I do like him. I'm not going to be part of this debate anymore. No one has upset me so don't worry about that. Feel free to pm me though if you still want to talk to me.
Danielle.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Which is a part of why I had crates and trained mine,If I can't supervise them ALL of the time the dogs are crated.
> 
> I agree,however I have never said no dog shouldn't be exercised,however before CM insists on exercise he should seek vet advice especially for lame or overweight dogs,as again to much can be dangerous to the dog.
> 
> ...


We obviously watching different programmes then because ive seen dogs play lots of times, i do know the difference between playing and greeting 

Im not asking you to change your opinion at all just simply replying to your post. I dont believe his tactics are bullying and my parents never had to cage the dogs around us as children. But as i said before not going to be pulled into an arguement here, its great that you have had so much success doing things your way. We'll agree to disagree


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Well the following is what a vet said about the video posted on the first page of this thread,
dog training gone bad - Veterinary Community Blog post - Find it all here.
Many of you may be aware of a National Geographic television show featuring a charismatic individual who helps dog owners. I recently came across this video on the website and I urge you to watch it (preferably without the sound so as not to be distracted by his talking) and keep your eye on the dog. Here is what you will see:

Within the first 5 seconds, the handler kicks the dog in the abdomen. When the dog turns toward him he is jerked off his feet. A struggle ensues where the handler gets bitten several times and the dog is seen to be struggling for air. Finally he gets the dog onto the ground and the dogs tongue is blue and the dog is gasping for breath. When he finally gets the dog up it appears that there might be urine on the ground and that the dog voided his bladder in distress.

What you have witnessed is not dog training but abuse. Not only does the dog suffer, but clients are at risk if they attempt these interventions themselves. These are not appropriate measures and compromise the welfare of the dog and the safety of people. His explanations are false and not based on science as we know it. We as veterinarians must make our voices heard and let National Geographic and most importantly our clients know that these types of interventions are wrong and not in the best interest of dogs or people.

As a veterinary behaviorist I have dealt with behavior problems in companion animals for over 25 years and would never confront a dog this way. Not only would it be dangerous for me and the family, it would be harmful for the dog. My goal is diagnose the problem, and design humane treatment plans that help the family change the behavior of their dog so that they can safely live together. I hope all veterinarians can agree that this is the best approach.

I would love to hear your thoughts. Most importantly, go to the link and scroll down the page to contact us and click on that. Let National Geographic know what you think.

Thank you for your time

Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Now I've watched that video again and I'm almost certain I can see splashes of blood on the floor too


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Now I've watched that video again and I'm almost certain I can see splashes of blood on the floor too


BLOOD!!! are you telling me i got to watch this video again!! 
Sorry if im being stupied :blushing: but where would the blood have come from unless its a bit of blood off CM from the bites


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Here's another vid,
Isis & Tina, Nugget, and Katrina Dogs | National Geographic Channel
I have watched this with no sound as I do with all his video's,again I can sense that this dog is frightened,this is not a red zone dog but a frightened one.

And why does he feel it necessary to kick the dog at the end,Grrrrrr that man irrates the life out of me!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

I just watched the other one again and i cant see any blood! I hate watching it them poor dogs eyes its terrified!!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> BLOOD!!! are you telling me i got to watch this video again!!
> Sorry if im being stupied :blushing: but where would the blood have come from unless its a bit of blood off CM from the bites


I'm trying to watch it again, so I can get the exact timing, but I am sure when he pulls the dog up from the floor I saw a flash of red on the dogs neck it could quite possibly also be blood from the dogs feet as he's being dragged around by CM 

I'm trying to see again but look towards the end of the video as CM raises the dog from the floor


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Oh okies Nicci i was looking on the floor for blood not the actual dog gosh im dim some times

Sal that video is awful the man is a nut case the more i see of him the more i would like to strangle the guy!! and why does he kick the dog at the end...He uses collar and leads to yank dogs all over the place..That dog is blimmin terrified..look at when they zoom in on the dogs eyes!! Hes shutting these dogs down that dog couldnt even look away or move with out being shoved and poked around!! Then he gives a kick and it was a kick not a tap for no reason..


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Watching it again I can see that the dog is wearing a red tag on his collar, I'm still pretty certain that I could see blood, but then again the quality of the video isn't great and I can't make out whether it's raining or rained in the area that they are in.

Still I can't see how folks agree with treating a dog like that, it's wrong and it makes me really angry.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

What gets me is the way hes shows off the rips in his top like its something to be proud of!! I cant hear what hes saying because i turn sound off instead of filling my head with the crap he talks!! But from just watching it i get the sense hes proud of these bites!!
In other words he got the reaction he WANTED out of the dog!!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Watching it again I can see that the dog is wearing a red tag on his collar, I'm still pretty certain that I could see blood, but then again the quality of the video isn't great and I can't make out whether it's raining or rained in the area that they are in.
> 
> Still I can't see how folks agree with treating a dog like that, it's wrong and it makes me really angry.


I agree,he really infuriates me 



DevilDogz said:


> What gets me is the way hes shows off the rips in his top like its something to be proud of!! I cant hear what hes saying because i turn sound off instead of filling my head with the crap he talks!! But from just watching it i get the sense hes proud of these bites!!
> In other words he got the reaction he WANTED out of the dog!!


I turn the sound off to so I can concentrate on the dog and it's body language as you said instead of the rubbish he fills owners heads with!
He hasn't got a clue,me I would rather have a dog pts,than paper over the cracks or let him anywhere near my dogs.
He makes me sick!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

crofty said:


> We obviously watching different programmes then because ive seen dogs play lots of times, i do know the difference between playing and greeting
> 
> Im not asking you to change your opinion at all just simply replying to your post. I dont believe his tactics are bullying and my parents never had to cage the dogs around us as children. But as i said before not going to be pulled into an arguement here, its great that you have had so much success doing things your way. We'll agree to disagree


I sooo agree with you... we must be watching different programmes !! 

All the CM debates feel this way to me, people talk bullying, violence, pain, fearful submission etc and I do not see any of it when I watch it (sound on or off ) I hear people say he puts everything to dominance and I hear him explain that very few dogs are actually dominant, it is very often fear aggression but still linked to the lack of leadership (unstable state).

I know I've said it countless times but to me the root of the debates we keep having is simply that everyone has its own interpretation on things, we are not professionals (for most of us) on dog behaviour and even professional do not always agree (far from it), and all we see is a TV programme at the end of the day, not enough to be able to judge appropriately the methods used by CM. 
To judge him properly we would need to be physically present, to talk to him directly and see the dog he deals with and his dogs in person, and ideally know a great deal more about dog behaviour/body language than most of us know. 
I like CM's way of thinking and I can relate to what he explains, but at the end of the day it is only a TV programme; whilst the basic ideas can be taken away by pet owners (and people in general), the specific methods of rehabilitation are certainly not advised to be tried at home without supervision (and most of us will never need to even consider them, especially in the case of dogs owned and trained since puppyhood)!

xxx


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Oblada said:


> I sooo agree with you... we must be watching different programmes !!
> 
> All the CM debates feel this way to me, people talk bullying, violence, pain, fearful submission etc and I do not see any of it when I watch it (sound on or off ) I hear people say he puts everything to dominance and I hear him explain that very few dogs are actually dominant, it is very often fear aggression but still linked to the lack of leadership (unstable state).
> 
> ...


Oh good someone that thinks like me!!  I keep watching these vids looking for blood and urine and think i must be losing my eyesight because i just dont see it  I see what he is doing completely different to what other people are pointing out on this thread.

I completely agree with you, it states clearly throughout every programme these techniques are not to be used without professional advice first.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Oblada said:


> To judge him properly we would need to be physically present, to talk to him directly and see the dog he deals with and his dogs in person, and ideally know a great deal more about dog behaviour/body language than most of us know.


There are professional dog trainers out there that have major concerns about CM,these trainers have qualifications in dog physiology,behaviour training etc,what does CM have,absolutely nothing,he read a few books then claimed he was an expert. 


Oblada said:


> I like CM's way of thinking and I can relate to what he explains, but at the end of the day it is only a TV programme;


Exactly he is an entertainer, not a trainer 


Oblada said:


> whilst the basic ideas can be taken away by pet owners (and people in general), the specific methods of rehabilitation are certainly not advised to be tried at home without supervision


I agree however people do try this at home and end up getting hurt,why do they flash do not try this at home across the screen ?
Would it be because they don't want a law suit issued against them ?

I have watched a vid of him treating a dog who was resource guarding,he used an electric shock collar 
Was that necessary absolutely not!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I watched that pit bull one. What was he thinking of. It was a playful dog that was used to being allowed to lunge around on the end of the lead towards other dogs. He choked it half to death, what was that teaching it. How about teaching it some discipline, sitting on a loose lead while the other dog walks by , not making sure that next time it probably will attack another dog because it will associate a dog approaching with being strangled and wrestled to the floor. The man is totally nuts. I have never watched the tv programmes and have only seen odd clips but that one is a decider.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I watched that pit bull one. What was he thinking of. It was a playful dog that was used to being allowed to lunge around on the end of the lead towards other dogs. He choked it half to death, what was that teaching it. How about teaching it some discipline, sitting on a loose lead while the other dog walks by , not making sure that next time it probably will attack another dog because it will associate a dog approaching with being strangled and wrestled to the floor. The man is totally nuts. I have never watched the tv programmes and have only seen odd clips but that one is a decider.


Totally agree,
You need positive association,he doesn't use any,not that I have seen anyway.
What on earth was wrong with getting the dog to focus on him using a "watch me" command, praising and reward.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I watched that pit bull one. What was he thinking of. It was a playful dog that was used to being allowed to lunge around on the end of the lead towards other dogs. He choked it half to death, what was that teaching it. How about teaching it some discipline, sitting on a loose lead while the other dog walks by , not making sure that next time it probably will attack another dog because it will associate a dog approaching with being strangled and wrestled to the floor. The man is totally nuts. I have never watched the tv programmes and have only seen odd clips but that one is a decider.


Could'nt agree more..good post!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I wonder if CM would do the same to a smaller breed..shall we say my breed a "chinese Crested" because for sure it proberly would have had its neck broken being strangled and swung around like that!!!


Scarey! Very Scarey,doesn't bare thinking about does it ?

I saw one with the saint bernard pup, he wouldn't go upstairs,CM dragged him around as he does,I was so hoping he was going to pull CM down the stairs.

I also didn't think it was advisable for large breed dogs to go up and downstairs as pups because of joint damage.
He ain't got a clue!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Scarey! Very Scarey,doesn't bare thinking about does it ?
> 
> I saw one with the saint bernard pup, he wouldn't go upstairs,CM dragged him around as he does,I was so hoping he was going to pull CM down the stairs.
> 
> ...


No it doesnt bare thinking about its awful..I would only have to do half of what he does to them dogs with them leads to my dogs and they would'nt ware one again fact..they would be terrified..Makes me wonder what happens if that dog now kicks of on a walk and CM isnt there witch of course he wont be!! 
Poor dog will lose the plot and no doubt PTS because its lashed out.

He hasnt a clue your right!! and after seeing some of his programs its almost as if he makes these things up as he goes along! ut:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> To judge him properly we would need to be physically present, to talk to him directly and see the dog he deals with and his dogs in person, and ideally know a great deal more about dog behaviour/body language than most of us know.


I agree. TV programs can give very false impressions in all sorts of ways. Both good and bad.

All sorts of approaches to dog training can yield success and sometimes with a problem dog one approach will be highly successful from a trainer and sometimes it will need a quite different approach from a quite different minded trainer. 
I think had Caesar Milan's approach been deemed to be cruel, then he wouldn't have loads of folk with wayward pooches fawning over him in the way that they do after he has sorted out their dog's problem. The people he deals seem to be soppy dog lovers in the main, if they sensed any bit of real cruelty to their dog then I feel he would be out on his ear. 
A dog that is continually being shouted at angrily by its frustrated owner is not a happy dog. If a few hours "training" stops that then that can only be for the good.

I think that with certain dogs the treatment needs to be more forceful than others as their instincts to be forceful themselves is so much greater. Channelling that energy into more sociable acceptable behaviour will save some of their lives.

I have seen a lot of his programs and I must say that most of the time he just teaches the owners to be a bit more assertive and confident around their dog, so this bashing of his methods is perhaps a bit biased and not entirely based on looking at his entire philosophy.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

i know i get too angry when i get involved int hese debates and i swear i have been trying to stay out but what kind of person does this to a blind dog?? he pokes him, takes away his safe place and then pins him down. what could that possibly achieve??? if you dont want to wait hand and foot on a dog then ignore it!! its so simple there is no need to manhandle it when it cant see. thats sooo mean!!

If i was blind and some one did that to me i would behave a lot worse then this poor dog. some dogs do take a lot of crap from people and this has got to be one of them.

YouTube - Dog Whisperer: Blind Terrier


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> i know i get too angry when i get involved int hese debates and i swear i have been trying to stay out but what kind of person does this to a blind dog?? he pokes him, takes away his safe place and then pins him down. what could that possibly achieve??? if you dont want to wait hand and foot on a dog then ignore it!! its so simple there is no need to manhandle it when it cant see. thats sooo mean!!
> 
> If i was blind and some one did that to me i would behave a lot worse then this poor dog. some dogs do take a lot of crap from people and this has got to be one of them.
> 
> YouTube - Dog Whisperer: Blind Terrier


Another problem he caused!!  Dog trys to remove it self from a situation it didnt like but its wasnt allowed   why!!???

Hes a complete muppet!!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

This is interesting reading,
Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers

A few bits stand out for me,
However, at least half of the households we visit watch the show regularly and have attempted the methods on the show without success or with negative results.

HE TELLS PEOPLE NOT TO TREAT DOGS LIKE HUMANS

Well, there's nothing wrong with that ...except if the alternative is to treat dogs like wolves...not based on actual wolf behavior, but an inaccurate interpretation of such. Ambiguous terms like "pack leader" are supposed to refer to the way canine animals act in a pack. Except the explanations and recommendations on the show have very little to do with the way actual wolves behave in an actual pack. So, treating a dog's behavior with false theories of wolf pack behavior is no better than treating a dog like a human and could have the same problematic outcome.

BUT IT WORKS/IT WORKED ON MY DOG(S)

I have not seen much in the way of changed behavior on the show. I do, however, see dogs with suppressed behaviors; dogs walking on very tight leashes, dogs that are stiff and immobile after being rolled onto their sides by force, dogs that are in almost every case restrained or shut down in some form or another. If the dog is unable to perform without being restrained by a tight leash or otherwise, the behavior has not been changed, it has been suppressed. 
Suppression of a behavior is not changing the behavior, itself. If the owner has to continually repeat the "correction" the behavior isn't changing.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I wonder how he teaches recall?

I dont see how any dog would willingly want to go near him after he's already abused them.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I wonder how he teaches recall?
> 
> I dont see how any dog would willingly want to go near him after he's already abused them.


good point. iv honestly never thought about that before. he probaly electrocutes them everytime they go in the wrong direction. or keeps them on a long line and just drags them back

on another note, this is a great micky take

YouTube - The Dog Kicker: Episode 1


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Here's another vid,
> Isis & Tina, Nugget, and Katrina Dogs | National Geographic Channel
> I have watched this with no sound as I do with all his video's,again I can sense that this dog is frightened,this is not a red zone dog but a frightened one.
> 
> And why does he feel it necessary to kick the dog at the end,Grrrrrr that man irrates the life out of me!


i just watched the beginning of this one.

Anyone notice that when the dog (the brown one) hears cesar coming its tail goes straight underneath his bum and the whole body just tenses up ...its frightened of cesar. Then cesar makes his "shishh" noise and the dog shows fear again.

First of all, what did cesar do to that dog (behind the cameras!!!) that its scared of the shishh noise? I find people think that he is some sort of magician entering the screen, making "shishh" and the dogs magicly react to him how its expected by cesar.

I dont need to be there present to be able to judge him, the dogs are the best judges themselves. The dogs are frightened of him for a good reason and they are prove enough to me that this man is cruel and doesnt understand dog behaviour.

I dont understand how anybody can support those techniques regardless of who applies them.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

What really worries me, is that this man, because of his need to be infront of the camera, has probably made thousands of dogs suffer at the hands of their owners, rather than the few hundred that would have been terrorized had he stayed doing what he believes he is good at, dog training


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I dont see how any dog would willingly want to go near him after he's already abused them.


I think they would as it would be appeasing him in the hope that it wouldn't get another kick/jab/poke from him, how often have we seen dogs crawling over to owners who've abused them because if they didn't they would get another beating. I was concentrating on his body language in some of the clips, he reminds me of tin pot dictators and their henchmen in the way he moves, his body language to me is saying ''look at me *I* am important, you *will* do as I say''.

Terri


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Why then do the dogs that he has been working with , wag their tails at him , sit on his knee , give him kisses , jump in to swimming pools with him. If they were so afraid of him they would not come near him. They are not allways on leads when he is working with them and a dog of lead can run away from situations that they are unsure of but they do not
> 
> 
> > Dogs are extremely loyal. When you read about severe abuse to dogs in the papers on the news etc. The dogs still show their owner/abuser love and loyalty.
> ...


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Kinski said:


> I think they would as it would be appeasing him in the hope that it wouldn't get another kick/jab/poke from him, how often have we seen dogs crawling over to owners who've abused them because if they didn't they would get another beating. I was concentrating on his body language in some of the clips, he reminds me of tin pot dictators and their henchmen in the way he moves, his body language to me is saying ''look at me *I* am important, you *will* do as I say''.
> 
> Terri


Fear and loyalty will ensure the dog returns. Thats if the poor animal even has the confidence to actually go very far.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> good point. iv honestly never thought about that before. he probaly electrocutes them everytime they go in the wrong direction. or keeps them on a long line and just drags them back
> 
> on another note, this is a great micky take
> 
> YouTube - The Dog Kicker: Episode 1


thanks for that one, it is brilliant.

Having watched the blind dog one though, I am not too sure. He is on the right track I think. On these clips it doesnt actually explain the problem but am I right in assuming that the dog is diving back into its cage and then becoming aggressive. And the owner did says she couldnt put him on his back. Not too sure why she wanted to but it was obviously important to her. Of all the clips on this thread that is the one where I would say he has got it more or less right.


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*The thing that got me about this particular episode,if you all noticed before the wrestling match began, the dog was walking lovely and minding his own business and hey presto before you know it cesar does his famous back kick ever so softly though and i think thats what set the dog off!

Also, although i am too a great fan of Cesar, i dont think we will ever really see him on tv being cruel to dogs, but have you thought, i wonder how many he's not been able to cure, of tv????? just a thought lol.

(dont shoot me lol im being brave venturing down here lol ):smilewinkgrin:*


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Acacia86;828739Can i just ask anyone that does agree with his methods 2 things??
1. Would you stand there and watch and let CM hang your dog? Ues an e-collar? Pin him down?
2. What would be your very first thought if you were walking your dog in the park and you saw someone hanging their dog from his lead said:


> 1)No I wouldn't I'd be over to him like shot and get my dog as far away from him as possible, and gve him a kick,poke ,nudge or maybe even a shock in a sensitive area with an e-collar
> 
> 2)My first thought report them


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

.... the real cruel bits are probably cut out and the failed dogs dont even make it onto the screen at all .... just show success and the blind will follow


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> 1)No I wouldn't I'd be over to him like shot and get my dog as far away from him as possible, and gve him a kick,poke ,nudge or maybe even a shock in a sensitive area with an e-collar
> 
> 2)My first thought report them


in both cases id hit them with a big stick and take the dog. lol


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Can i just ask anyone that does agree with his methods 2 things??
> 
> 1. Would you stand there and watch and let CM hang your dog? Ues an e-collar? Pin him down?
> 
> 2. What would be your very first thought if you were walking your dog in the park and you saw someone hanging their dog from his lead, then a few minutes later he was pinned to the ground??


1) No. If anyone, not just him did that to my dog they'd have my size 7 boot right up their arse.
2) I'd be disgusted and would report them!


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Can i just ask anyone that does agree with his methods 2 things??
> 
> 1. Would you stand there and watch and let CM hang your dog? Ues an e-collar? Pin him down?
> 
> 2. What would be your very first thought if you were walking your dog in the park and you saw someone hanging their dog from his lead, then a few minutes later he was pinned to the ground??


1. He would not get near my dogs without me doing him some serious damage.

2. I have had a go at people in the park who I've seen hitting their dogs and verbally laid into them. One woman was beating a lab pup, I saw her from the other side of the park and started screaming at her to leave the ******* dog alone, other dog walkers that were walking with me all of a sudden disappeared and left me screaming at the woman about what I was going to do to her, the dog has now been re-homed to another dog walker from the park.

Terri


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Well folks I'm going to bow out of this debate now, as this seems to be forever going round in circles 

All I can say is I have no need to kick, punch, poke, hang, choke off or pin down my dogs they know their place and I know mine as their owner. Obviously those of us that don't do this things are seen by those that do these things as actually stark raving bonkers. As for CM the more and more I see of him, I think he's actually a cruel individual who takes great pleasure in seeing dogs submit to the awful things he does. Can't say I'll ever be his number 1 fan.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

iv finally found it.

since this debate first started iv been trying to find the viedo that really pushed me over the edge where CM is concerned. iv never been a big fan but the day i saw this was when i first really hated him. its taken me ages as i couldnt remember the name of the dog, whom i think is dead cute!!!!!

anyways here it is, sorry theres two parts i couldnt find a short version.

YouTube - Jonbee 1

YouTube - Jonbee 2

will try to stay out of this debate now because im worried i might upset someone if i keep reading. lol


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Well folks I'm going to bow out of this debate now, as this seems to be forever going round in circles
> 
> All I can say is I have no need to kick, punch, poke, hang, choke off or pin down my dogs they know their place and I know mine as their owner. Obviously those of us that don't do this things are seen by those that do these things as actually stark raving bonkers. As for CM the more and more I see of him, I think he's actually a cruel individual who takes great pleasure in seeing dogs submit to the awful things he does. Can't say I'll ever be his number 1 fan.


Ive bowed out of this debate long ago lol as have most people agreeing with CM eventually it seems and all that is left is something akin to a CM vendetta continuously going crescendo to the extent that I am at complete loss to see how on earth the link with CM was made at the first place 

Noone here approves, im sure, of kicking, punching, hanging and chocking a dog (poking I do not quite see the problem, my OH seems fine enough when I poke him but then he may well file for spousal abuse one day who knows  - and pinning is a different issue, the verb itself translates more force than what is meant in most cases) and nor would CM. 
But if people want to believe he does mean harm and violence to the dogs then it is their choice to so believe. 
I believe that violence is very far from most "CM's fans" mind so everybody's mind can be at rest on that.
We all try and mean our best for our dogs, regardless of the methods we choose to use and be influenced by.

I like CM and his way of thinking and will continue to regard him highly but if others prefer to ignore him and his techniques that is perfectly fine.
I don't think either side can convince the other (and what would be the point anyway?) as clearly some see abuse and violence where others see respect and trust.

xx


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## kazza1964 (Aug 21, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> iv finally found it.
> 
> since this debate first started iv been trying to find the viedo that really pushed me over the edge where CM is concerned. iv never been a big fan but the day i saw this was when i first really hated him. its taken me ages as i couldnt remember the name of the dog, whom i think is dead cute!!!!!
> 
> ...


I can't see anything wrong with this the dog wasn't hurt in any way shape or form & he wasn't being cruel, the difference he made to that dogs life is massive & has probably saved him from being put to sleep, lets not forget he's in America and rescues over there euthenise over the slightest aggression issues he gives dogs a second chance I would much prefer one of my dogs to go through that with Cesar than to have to have it put to sleep


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> iv finally found it.
> 
> since this debate first started iv been trying to find the viedo that really pushed me over the edge where CM is concerned. iv never been a big fan but the day i saw this was when i first really hated him. its taken me ages as i couldnt remember the name of the dog, whom i think is dead cute!!!!!
> 
> ...


all i can say about the treatment of Jonbee is OMG! 

& before i also bow out of this debate something else which has really annoyed me is this taken from underneath the video clip of Nina's opening post.... Shadow is a fully dominant dog who comes at Cesar like a wolf.

no wonder Wolves have such a bad name!!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

kazza1964 said:


> I can't see anything wrong with this the dog wasn't hurt in any way shape or form & he wasn't being cruel, the difference he made to that dogs life is massive & has probably saved him from being put to sleep, lets not forget he's in America and rescues over there euthenise over the slightest aggression issues he gives dogs a second chance I would much prefer one of my dogs to go through that with Cesar than to have to have it put to sleep


Totally agree with all you have said


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

there was no need for jonbee to have to go through that, they said he was perfectly fine until you tried to make him lie on his back indoors. i cant for the life of me think why he would need to. Rune has never in his life rolled on his back, it freaks him out and he is the softest tempered dog ever. there is no reason why a dog should need to be rolled over in the first place that is why anyone that would force him to go through that is IMHO evil. it was pure torture for jonbee to go through that, it was clear how stressful and scary that was for him, and there was no reason for it, he only got agressive because some idiot tryed to put him on his back, a dogs most vulnerable possition, which is unnatural anyway and he clearly didnt want to do it. 

many dogs also dont like being manhandled into different possitions either.

then again when in nature is any other animal manhandled into a vulnerable possition. never. the poor dog probably thought it was going to die. when i saw the real episode im sure the dog wet himself too but i cant see it on the one i posted.


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## kazza1964 (Aug 21, 2008)

I have owned 11 dogs in my lifetime & each and every one of them rolled onto their backs naturally without force so not "un-natural" at all

What would be un-natural to me was a dog that wouldn't feel comfortable rolling onto its back I would see warning signs in that immediately


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

I was shocked,the way the dog flipped over could have caused serious injury,including a broken back. 

Absolutely disgusting. 

My dogs roll onto their backs when I ask them if they want a belly rub,it's done voluntary not by force,CM forces dogs into that position a big big difference.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

kazza1964 said:


> I have owned 11 dogs in my lifetime & each and every one of them rolled onto their backs naturally without force so not "un-natural" at all
> 
> What would be un-natural to me was a dog that wouldn't feel comfortable rolling onto its back I would see warning signs in that immediately


So have mine!!! but they would object to being put their forcably! The is a vast difference between rolling on their backs willingly and being forced into the position!
DT


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

And for your information the reasons your dogs are rolling on their backs in the first place is because they are relaxed and feel UN threatened!
regards
DT


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

kazza1964 said:


> I have owned 11 dogs in my lifetime & each and every one of them rolled onto their backs naturally without force so not "un-natural" at all
> 
> What would be un-natural to me was a dog that wouldn't feel comfortable rolling onto its back I would see warning signs in that immediately


just to clafify i meant complelty on their back, iv met many dogs who will go so far over for a belly rub etc but not completly flat on their back, and all those dogs have been wonderful animals.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

in a strange enviroment and by a stranger my dogs would be reluctant to be rolled over on their back as well and no, they have no issues as such .....

Its a vulnearbale position for a dog and to be able to do that it needs to be relaxed, feel safe and have trust into the person wanting to roll it over.....


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

Natik said:


> in a strange enviroment and by a stranger my dogs would be reluctant to be rolled over on their back as well and no, they have no issues as such .....
> 
> Its a vulnearbale position for a dog and to be able to do that it needs to be relaxed, feel safe and have trust into the person wanting to roll it over.....


Spot on Natik! And much better put then by myself above!
Infact i'll add to it! try and put a dog onto it's back (in play) and it will put up one hell of a struggle!
DT


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## kazza1964 (Aug 21, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And for your information the reasons your dogs are rolling on their backs in the first place is because they are relaxed and feel UN threatened!
> regards
> DT


I don't need to know your information thank you I already know my dogs trust me and are balanced, I'm lucky I have an easy pack to live with but not all dogs are and some need help to get there

Do not patronise or lecture me because I don't agree with you


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

QUOTE=kazza1964;829629]I don't need to know your information thank you I already know my dogs trust me and are balanced, I'm lucky I have an easy pack to live with but not all dogs are and some need help to get there

Do not patronise or lecture me because I don't agree with you [/QUOTE]

No probs Barbara:bored::bored:


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## kazza1964 (Aug 21, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> No probs Barbara:bored::bored:


Shut up & Grow up bullying won't work this time me dearie


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

kazza1964 said:


> Shut up & Grow up bullying won't work this time me dearie


I got an infraction for telling some one to grow up!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

kazza1964 said:


> Shut up & Grow up bullying won't work this time me dearie


I lurve the age I am thank you!!! Obviously I am hiding it well.
Thank you so much that is possiby the best compliment you could have paid me.
Can I add you to my friends list please?


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

kazza1964 said:


> I don't need to know your information thank you I already know my dogs trust me and are balanced, I'm lucky I have an easy pack to live with but not all dogs are and some need help to get there
> 
> Do not patronise or lecture me because I don't agree with you


Im glad you have an easy pack to live with and ive agreed with alot of what you have said,

you shouldnt feel patronised just because your opinion differ from someone else


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And for your information the reasons your dogs are rolling on their backs in the first place is because they are relaxed and feel UN threatened!
> regards
> DT





claire said:


> Im glad you have an easy pack to live with and ive agreed with alot of what you have said,
> 
> you shouldnt feel patronised just because your opinion differ from someone else


Assuming you are referring to me Claire I do not see my post as being patronising ! more of a compliment actually by saying that the posters dogs obviously felt at ease to display such behavior! OK you didn't say that outright admitidly! but in my opinion this is just adding fuel to the fire!

I wasn't the one that started slinging the mud about! There had been many opinions cast, yet it seems that I am the only one to be accused of 'bullying' because of differing opinions!! Strange!!! but true!!!
DT


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

kazza1964 said:


> Shut up & Grow up bullying won't work this time me dearie


This thread imo was moving along nicely. Shamer some have to waste it with their silly remarks and flaming comments


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

clueless said:


> This thread imo was moving along nicely. Shamer some have to waste it with their silly remarks and flaming comments


I actually thought this was one of the most civilly debated topics!! Then the slinging started!!

I'm out............


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Ive bowed out of this debate long ago lol as have most people agreeing with CM eventually it seems and all that is left is something akin to a CM vendetta continuously going crescendo to the extent that I am at complete loss to see how on earth the link with CM was made at the first place
> 
> Noone here approves, im sure, of kicking, punching, hanging and chocking a dog (poking I do not quite see the problem, my OH seems fine enough when I poke him but then he may well file for spousal abuse one day who knows  - and pinning is a different issue, the verb itself translates more force than what is meant in most cases) and nor would CM.
> But if people want to believe he does mean harm and violence to the dogs then it is their choice to so believe.
> ...


Yip this thread is starting to get a bit boring . I am like yourself Oblada and its seems that it has started to turn in to a vendetta against CM .

IMO a dog who is frightened of someone i.e. CM ,they would not sit with him or act the way they do around him. Their ears would be down , tail between legs and cower if he touched them and I have not seen that at all.
All the people he has helped also are very greatfull to him too.

My last post as I like him and that is that . My Advice to those who do not is

Do not watch his programmes:idea:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Yip this thread is starting to get a bit boring . I am like yourself Oblada and its seems that it has started to turn in to a vendetta against CM .
> 
> IMO a dog who is frightened of someone i.e. CM ,they would not sit with him or act the way they do around him. Their ears would be down , tail between legs and cower if he touched them and I have not seen that at all.
> All the people he has helped also are very greatfull to him too.
> ...


I don't. I have not any point of being nasty or scarcastic to any person, and i still won't but can you answer the questions i put before???

These:

Can i just ask anyone that does agree with his methods 2 things??

1. Would you stand there and watch and let CM hang your dog? Ues an e-collar? Pin him down?

2. What would be your very first thought if you were walking your dog in the park and you saw someone hanging their dog from his lead, then a few minutes later he was pinned to the ground??


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Acacia,

To answer your questions just as respectfully from one who has saved around 40 last chance, about to be euthanized dogs using Cesar's way~

First I would check to see why that person was attempting to restrain their dog vs just publically torturing it for fun. Next I already know that just because someone seems to be trying to emulate Cesar doesnt mean they understand or are using his solutions correctly, so I would find out more about why, their back ground and watch their full technqiue for effectiveness.

Next as to the being pinned to the ground. - If the person is angry, made frustrated or any emotional reaction - then it is NOT Cesar's way. If the person is holding the dog down until he calms down, then I would have the same gratitude that I would if a child tried to attack me and their parent held that child until that child stopped coming after me - THAT is the reason for the "pinning motion", wait for dog to calm down because when he is upset, all he wants to do is GET that person/dog and nothing else gets through...not sit stay down or other commands.

Let me point out that there is not one piece of paper from a vet, a clinic or hospital showing that any dog helped by Cesar was harmed in any way. IIt is unfortunate when people will only allow one view about another's actions, even when it is expained.

So, what you dont see, is Cesar ltierally holding a dog off the ground with all four feet in the air by the collar. What you see is a dog trying to bite or charge at another dog or person who is being restrained by Cesar.

I know there are many people who think it is wrong to restrain a dog from biting others. That it would be better to let that dog go then hold him back if she starts coughing becuase he is pulling on the leash. If you will watch, the dog has completely control, when the dog stops pulling, the leash always goes loose. This is part of Cesar's way. People who do not do this are not practicing nor understand Cesar's way, no matter what they say.

The other element you asked about - the electronic collar.

Actually I HAVE put one on after watching Cesar demonstrate how to use one correctly and explain why it is so important that a professional use that only as a distraction too, to make sure the dog is NOT harmed. Even with the power turn up, it was an annoying tingle, like my leg waking up after falling asleep at the maximum setting.

The epsiode with Moly at the farm was beautiful to watch. 
This dog, who had already lost her eye and broken her jaw grabbing at tires of moving farm equipment, jumped when approaching the tire again. You see her look around like, what was that? Forgetting about the tires. She didnt yelp, she didnt fall to the ground writhing in pain. The e collar was used a second time with the same results - that was all that was needed. Now, she will leave moving equipment when called off which she wouldnt before.

Again, the alternative, was to let her die horribly by being crushed when her teeth would get caught in the tires, as had already happened.

So I hope this helps to clarify and that there is an open enough mind to see that maybe understanding is important to do a correction both safely AND appropiately.

Sincerely and respectfully.
CJ Anderson



Acacia86 said:


> I don't. I have not any point of being nasty or scarcastic to any person, and i still won't but can you answer the questions i put before???
> 
> These:
> 
> ...


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

CJAnderson said:


> Hi Acacia,
> 
> To answer your questions just as respectfully from one who has saved around 40 last chance, about to be euthanized dogs using Cesar's way~
> 
> ...


I do really appreciate your reply, i am not saying your wrong and i'm right. Or visa versa. It is healthy for people to differ on opinions..............or the world would a boring place!! 

Oooh can you guess i am in the red??? lol!!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

CJAnderson said:


> Hi Acacia,
> 
> To answer your questions just as respectfully from one who has saved around 40 last chance, about to be euthanized dogs using Cesar's way~
> 
> ...


Great post, explains things nicely!! 



claire said:


> you shouldnt feel patronised just because your opinion differ from someone else


I will second you on that Claire!


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## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

astro said:


> I invite you to *research other trainers/behaviourists and see how much of their techniques you agree/disagree with*. You would probably form opinions, both positive and negative, of people such as Dr. Ian Dunbar, Lesley McDevitt, Jan Fennell, Stan Rawlinson, Colin Tennant, et al.
> 
> Cesar provokes a lot of controversy because he has such a high profile.



Very interesting reading, although it's quite long. I've been reading it bit by bit whenever I get the chance.

I'm not saying Cesar is right or wrong, I'm simply trying to point out that some of you will feel that there are much better trainers/behaviourists than Cesar, and some will feel that there are also much worse.

ETA: how do make a link clicky?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar There ya go Astro


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

CJAnderson said:


> Let me point out that there is not one piece of paper from a vet, a clinic or hospital showing that any dog helped by Cesar was harmed in any way.
> practicing nor understand Cesar's way, no matter what they say.


If that is or was the case then why was a law suit filed against him and settled out of court ?


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Many of the programmes featuring CM's are covered by a blanket dislaimer!
Do nott try this at home!
Why is that I ask! if the are warning viewers not to try a particlur technique at home then why show it in te first place! As in my opinion it is only putting ideas into peoples heads!
Just curious!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Many of the programmes featuring CM's are covered by a blanket dislaimer!
> Do nott try this at home!
> Why is that I ask! if the are warning viewers not to try a particlur technique at home then why show it in te first place! As in my opinion it is only putting ideas into peoples heads!
> Just curious!


There are a lot of things on TV that should not be tried at home by the inexperienced viewer, surely this is not the originality of the Dog Whisperer show.

As for; why are such warnings needed (whichever the programme)? 
The answer is quite simple: No it is not because it would normally be dangerous to actually follow the precepts contained in a programme, that in itself is often quite irrelevant; its all a question of politics, health and safety regulations and the fear (especially in the US) of ridiculous law suits brought about by total idiots who think they are following the advice of a TV programme but are actually getting it totally wrong.
- cost of getting rid of a unfounded lawsuit; can be quite significant, take time, impact on reputation etc 
- cost of putting up a written warning at the beginning of a show; pennies. Simple. Its all about lawyers covering their back. Just like with any disclaimer/limitation of responsibility anywhere else.

xx


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Oblada said:


> There are a lot of things on TV that should not be tried at home by the inexperienced viewer, surely this is not the originality of the Dog Whisperer show.
> 
> As for; why are such warnings needed (whichever the programme)?
> The answer is quite simple: No it is not because it would normally be dangerous to actually follow the precepts contained in a programme, that in itself is often quite irrelevant; its all a question of politics, health and safety regulations and the fear (especially in the US) of ridiculous law suits brought about by total idiots who think they are following the advice of a TV programme but are actually getting it totally wrong.
> ...


Here is a good article imo

From Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist
Animal Behavior Clinic
Purdue University

I reviewed the four preview-videotapes kindly submitted to me by National Geographic. I very much appreciate having gotten the opportunity to see these tapes before the program goes on the air. I will be happy to review any programs that deal with domestic animal behavior and training. I believe this is a responsibility of our profession.

I have been involved in continuing education for dog trainers for over 10 years, first through the How Dogs Learn" program at the University of Guelph (Ontario Veterinary College) and then through the DOGS! Course at Purdue University. I therefore know very well where dog training stands today, and I must tell you that Millan's techniques are outdated and unacceptable not only to the veterinary community, but also to dog trainers.
*************The first question regarding the above mentioned tapes I have is this: The show repeatedly cautions the viewers not to attempt these techniques at home. What then is the purpose of this show? I think we have to be realistic: people will try these techniques at home, much to the detriment of their pets.********************

Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: Flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.

Positive punishment refers to applying an aversive stimulus or correction as a consequence of a behavior. There are many concerns about punishment aside from its unpleasantness. Punishment is entirely inappropriate for most types of aggression and for any behavior that involves anxiety. Punishment can suppress most behavior but does not resolve the underlying problem, i.e., the fear or anxiety. Even in cases where correctly applied punishment might be considered appropriate, many conditions have to be met that most dog owners can't meet: The punishment has to be applied every time the behavior is displayed, within ½ second of the behavior, and at the correct intensity.

Most of the theoretical explanations that Millan gives regarding causes of the behavior problems are wrong. Not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance. Not one of these dogs wanted to control their owners. What he was right about was that calmness and consistency are extremely important, but they don't make the presented methods appropriate or justifiable.

The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment? Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?

My colleagues and I and innumerable leaders in the dog training community have worked now for decades to eliminate such cruel, ineffective (in terms of true cure) and inappropriate techniques.


----------



## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

clueless said:


> DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar There ya go Astro


Thank you!


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

clueless said:


> Here is a good article imo
> 
> From Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist
> Animal Behavior Clinic
> ...


Great Article Clued up!
I rest my case!
DT


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

This is all really interesting. I have to admit the first time I saw Cesar Milan I was only half watching and thought he had done wonders with the dogs. The next time I saw it I atched it properly and it made me feel really unsettled so I did some reading up on him and watched some links with the sound off. I have to say I was so upset for the dogs.

I also think people watching that aren't experienced with dogs will watch him and see what they think is a quick fix and try it on their dogs. When it goes wrong and either they or the dog gets hurt the poor dog is the one that will suffer because the owners will decide its unfixable or dangerous and the poor dog will then either be put in rescue or worse pts. 

I know they say do not try this at home but most people will ignore that and try any way.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> Here is a good article imo
> 
> From Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist
> Animal Behavior Clinic
> ...


Don't know why you call yourself clueless cause you are far from it .
I googled part of that article and there is actually another bit after what you've put on.

The title "The Dog Whisperer" is particularly ironic. The title is of course taken from the horse whisperer. The training techniques of the horse whisperer are based on an understanding of equine behavior, and are non-confrontational and particularly gentle. Cesar Millan anything but "whispers"!

I think this series, if aired, would be a major embarrassment for National Geographic. It is not stimulating or thought-provoking, since none of the presented techniques are new. They are outdated and have long been abandoned by most responsible trainers, let alone behaviorists, as inappropriate and cruel. I very much hope National Geographic will pull the
plug on this program.
My colleagues and I and innumerable leaders in the dog training community have worked now for decades to eliminate such cruel, ineffective (in terms of true cure) and inappropriate techniques. It would be a major blow for all our efforts if National Geographic portrayed these very techniques as the current standard in training and behavior modification. National Geographic would be in a difficult situation because they would promote an individual practicing veterinary medicine without a license (at least compulsive disorder is a medical condition, and the diagnosis of any behavior problem is considered practicing veterinary medicine in the model veterinary practice act). I also would not be surprised if the large national animal welfare organizations were to sue National Geographic for promoting cruelty to animals. I can guarantee to you that they would have the support of all professional organizations involved in dog behavior and training.

Andrew Luescher DVM PhD DACVB
Director, Animal Behavior Clinic
School of Veterinary Medicine
Purdue University

Terri


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

To make a comment on Cesar Milan
National Geographic - Contact Us


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> To make a comment on Cesar Milan
> National Geographic - Contact Us


thanks for this Rona

i do think some people go along with Ceasars aversive training methods because of his celebrity status.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> If that is or was the case then why was a law suit filed against him and settled out of court ?





DoubleTrouble said:


> Many of the programmes featuring CM's are covered by a blanket dislaimer!
> Do nott try this at home!
> Why is that I ask! if the are warning viewers not to try a particlur technique at home then why show it in te first place! As in my opinion it is only putting ideas into peoples heads!
> Just curious!





clueless said:


> Here is a good article imo
> 
> From Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist
> Animal Behavior Clinic
> ...





Kinski said:


> Don't know why you call yourself clueless cause you are far from it .
> I googled part of that article and there is actually another bit after what you've put on.
> 
> The title "The Dog Whisperer" is particularly ironic. The title is of course taken from the horse whisperer. The training techniques of the horse whisperer are based on an understanding of equine behavior, and are non-confrontational and particularly gentle. Cesar Millan anything but "whispers"!
> ...





rona said:


> To make a comment on Cesar Milan
> National Geographic - Contact Us





noushka05 said:


> thanks for this Rona
> 
> i do think some people go along with Ceasars aversive training methods because of his celebrity status.


You lot still at it  

All the posts above are brill!! :thumbsup:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> *IMO a dog who is frightened of someone i.e. CM ,they would not sit with him or act the way they do around him. Their ears would be down , tail between legs and cower if he touched them and I have not seen that at all.
> All the people he has helped also are very greatfull to him too.*


Dogs live to survive, they wont show constant fear the way u expect them to after being abused!

An example (sadly a real one), a woman walks her dog off lead, happily (in other ppls mind) the dog runs about sniffing and looking. Then the woman approuches the dog (which still acts "normal"), it makes sit on command (shows no obvious signs as such of fear) and then she raises her arm in the air to scratch her head which straight away makes the dog to cower down, ears down in fear. Now what would anyone of u think seeing this in the local park??????????????? Surely that she must have been beating that dog, abusing in some way.

And that exact what happenes with cesar, the dogs act "normal" (in my eyes not really but for most of u they seem to do) until he makes the "shish" noise and any other movemts which trigger fear straight away because some sort of punishment had to follow this .....


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Yet another interesting article
http://4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

I said I wasn't going to post again, but found this newspaper article.



> For countless years dogs have been bred and nurtured to trust humans. They are by far the best friend of the human race -- they have protected us, worked for us, performed miraculous feats of courage: saving lives, rescuing people and pets, from flattened buildings (after Hurricane Katrina, and other disasters) when humans gave up because of the seeming impossibility of people surviving such daunting destruction...
> 
> And yet the dogs did not give up! If any animal is capable of unconditional love it is surely the canine: they are forgiving, caring, life-affirming creatures who humble us and teach us to be more human and compassionate. Also, let us never forget: specially-trained dogs help
> physically and mentally handicapped individuals have a much better lifestyle. Plus, when dogs visit hospitals they bring a healing presence to all those they come in contact with in ways humans cannot!
> ...


Link Richard Belzer: First Do No Harm


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

All those links are interesting.

I am totally amazed at the amount of people who actually see no harm in what he's doing.
If that is not the case why are behaviourists and vets concerned ?
Surely if we are seeing something which is been interpreted wrongly then there would be no concern from vets and behaviourists.Please don't tell me it's a case of the green eyed monster.
I did post a letter which was sent to the company behind Frontline.

Myself and O/H have retrained a fear aggressive dog,under no circumstances would we have trained like CM,I don't believe for one minute he addresses the root of the problem or changes the dogs behaviour.
He may well suppress the behaviour,however it is very likely that the problem behaviour will reoccur maybe even in a different form,or it will resurface with dire consequences.
There isn't any evidence to support this at present but I believe it will happen,if it hasn't already.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> All those links are interesting.
> 
> I am totally amazed at the amount of people who actually see no harm in what he's doing.
> If that is not the case why are behaviourists and vets concerned ?
> ...


People have already been hurt with CM using the methods that he does..

*Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German Shepherd were jeopardized in one episode by the use of a shock collar, which forced the tormented dog to redirect its aggression at its owner, biting her arm.*


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> Dogs live to survive, they wont show constant fear the way u expect them to after being abused!
> 
> An example (sadly a real one), a woman walks her dog off lead, happily (in other ppls mind) the dog runs about sniffing and looking. Then the woman approuches the dog (which still acts "normal"), it makes sit on command (shows no obvious signs as such of fear) and then she raises her arm in the air to scratch her head which straight away makes the dog to cower down, ears down in fear. Now what would anyone of u think seeing this in the local park??????????????? Surely that she must have been beating that dog, abusing in some way.
> 
> And that exact what happenes with cesar, the dogs act "normal" (in my eyes not really but for most of u they seem to do) until he makes the "shish" noise and any other movemts which trigger fear straight away because some sort of punishment had to follow this .....


That is so true, most people think if a dog was abused it would constantly be showing fear but this shows it's only at certain triggers.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

From that article quoted earlier ; DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar
"That means only one thing. Some people out there can't stand it when someone else with differing viewpoints, get so much media attention."

Sums up my view on this thread 
I rest my case LOL 

xx


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I feel that like children, dogs can respond to different methods of "training". Some respond to loving non-punitive environments while others need "boot camp " or prison to show them the error of their ways and turn them into good citizens. To say we should all be "nurtured" or all should be through "boot camp" is wrong as both types of upbringing can result in damaged individuals.

We love to knock anyone who puts themselves up as an "expert" or who seems to have some sort of extraordinary skill no matter what that may be.
CM is a case in point. I am sure that even Mother Theresa of Calcutta would have some academic knocking her practises/beliefs somewhere, if I looked hard enough.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I feel that like children, dogs can respond to different methods of "training". Some respond to loving non-punitive environments while others need "boot camp " or prison to show them the error of their ways and turn them into good citizens. To say we should all be "nurtured" or all should be through "boot camp" is wrong as both types of upbringing can result in damaged individuals.
> 
> We love to knock anyone who puts themselves up as an "expert" or who seems to have some sort of extraordinary skill no matter what that may be.
> CM is a case in point. I am sure that even Mother Theresa of Calcutta would have some academic knocking her practises/beliefs somewhere, if I looked hard enough.


would u send a child which aggressivly refuses to climb a hill because of its height phobia to a boot camp? 
I also dont believe a boot camp uses methods such a strangulation until the child turns blue.

People should critizise bad teqchniques in order to prevent those from being copied and in order for those being replaced by better once.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> would u send a child which aggressivly refuses to climb a hill because of its height phobia to a boot camp?
> I also dont believe a boot camp uses methods such a strangulation until the child turns blue.
> 
> People should critizise bad teqchniques in order to prevent those from being copied and in order for those being replaced by better once.


my thoughts exactly, sometimes a punishment may well be necessary but to me a near death experiance is a bit servere.

theres punishments and then theres down right mean!


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Oblada said:


> From that article quoted earlier ; DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar
> "That means only one thing. Some people out there can't stand it when someone else with differing viewpoints, get so much media attention."
> 
> Sums up my view on this thread
> ...


Yep I agree Im bowing out now too, cant be bothered to argue and go in circles, i can see why people think the way they do about some things but I see things in a different way obviously.

 xx


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Nicci said:


> People have already been hurt with CM using the methods that he does..
> 
> *Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German Shepherd were jeopardized in one episode by the use of a shock collar, which forced the tormented dog to redirect its aggression at its owner, biting her arm.*


Thanks Nicci,I had forgotton about that.


Oblada said:


> From that article quoted earlier ; DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar
> "That means only one thing. Some people out there can't stand it when someone else with differing viewpoints, get so much media attention."
> 
> Sums up my view on this thread
> ...


I myself would much prefer to take the advice of Dr Ian Dunbar,the guy who has various degrees in dog behaviour,training etc rather than some self proclaimed expert who has absolutely nothing.

Would you trust a GP with qualifications or would you take the advice of someone who claimed to be a DR yet had absolutely nothing to prove it.
I rest my case


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## charlene21122007 (Jul 22, 2009)

*hi can someone tell me where i can watch this clip thanks charlene*


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## charlene21122007 (Jul 22, 2009)

sorry didnt mean to make font so big


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

charlene21122007 said:


> *hi can someone tell me where i can watch this clip thanks charlene*


First post on the first page,there are various other cips throughout the thread too


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

lol you guys are still at it 

We can safely say nearly 60 pages later the anti-CM's arent ever gunna be fans and the CM fans are unlikely to ever change their mind either!

Im going to go set up my tent and campfire in the anti-CM camp! sausages anyone?


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> lol you guys are still at it
> 
> We can safely say nearly 60 pages later the anti-CM's arent ever gunna be fans and the CM fans are unlikely to ever change their mind either!
> 
> Im going to go set up my tent and campfire in the anti-CM camp! sausages anyone?


Sounds great but.........
O/H is cooking chilli for tea and making a mess in my kitchen!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Sounds great but.........
> O/H is cooking chilli for tea and making a mess in my kitchen!


Men and cooking = mess. fact of life.

Have you tried rolling him onto his back, or electricuting him, whenever he makes a mess?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Savahl said:


> lol you guys are still at it
> 
> We can safely say nearly 60 pages later the anti-CM's arent ever gunna be fans and the CM fans are unlikely to ever change their mind either!
> 
> Im going to go set up my tent and campfire in the anti-CM camp! sausages anyone?


Mmm please! :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> Men and cooking = mess. fact of life.
> 
> Have you tried rolling him onto his back, or electricuting him, whenever he makes a mess?


LOL,I've tried kicking him but it never had the desired effect,might try electrocuting him next me thinks....


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> LOL,I've tried kicking him but it never had the desired effect,might try electrocuting him next me thinks....


hmm yes...and i think rolling him on his back would actually make him make mess more often too on 2nd thoughts 

:idea:


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> LOL,I've tried kicking him but it never had the desired effect,might try electrocuting him next me thinks....


Now Now the program does state do not try this at home!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Now Now the program does state do not try this at home!


But it doesn't state anything about not doing it to humans


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> But it doesn't state anything about not doing it to humans


Okies i let you off this time!!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Now Now the program does state do not try this at home!


Now now DD! it;s standard practive to have such a disclaimer! Next time their is a cookery programm on TV!!! Watch out for the disclaimer! and DONT be tempted to try it at home!!!
lol
DT
Livinging the real world and laffing her head off!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Now now DD! it;s standard practive to have such a disclaimer! Next time their is a cookery programm on TV!!! Watch out for the disclaimer! and DONT be tempted to try it at home!!!
> lol
> DT
> Livinging the real world and laffing her head off!


omg you right!!! I will never ever try cooking at home again!!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Assuming you are referring to me Claire I do not see my post as being patronising ! more of a compliment actually by saying that the posters dogs obviously felt at ease to display such behavior! OK you didn't say that outright admitidly! but in my opinion this is just adding fuel to the fire!
> 
> I wasn't the one that started slinging the mud about! There had been many opinions cast, yet it seems that I am the only one to be accused of 'bullying' because of differing opinions!! Strange!!! but true!!!
> DT


You are wrong to assume i was aiming my comment at you! as i said i dont think people should FEEL patronised, I didnt say who if anyone i thought was doing it


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

claire said:


> You are wrong to assume i was aiming my comment at you! as i said i dont think people should FEEL patronised, I didnt say who if anyone i thought was doing it


If it were not aimed at me Claire then I apolygize! 
I felt that the remarks made by the poster to me were far worse then anything that I had said during the entire thread! Not that I am bothered by what people say about me! but it at the time look to me to be fuel for the fire! But! as I said if I go it wrong then I am sorry!
DT


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> If it were not aimed at me Claire then I apolygize!
> I felt that the remarks made by the poster to me were far worse then anything that I had said during the entire thread! Not that I am bothered by what people say about me! but it at the time look to me to be fuel for the fire! But! as I said if I go it wrong then I am sorry!
> DT


Nothing i said was connected to you i just agreed that no one should feel patronised for sharing there views cos after all thats why we are all here


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

I also found this,makes interesting reading,
http://www.ccpdt.org/document/09-06-24Merial Letter CCPDT.pdf

June 24, 2009
The Board of Directors for the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT) was surprised and
concerned to read about the promotional partnership between Merial and Cesar Millan pairing the use of
Heartguard and Frontline with Mr. Millan's behavior video. While we understand the marketing
perspective of using a celebrity to endorse a product, we feel that Merial has unwisely chosen a noncredentialed
dog training celebrity that does not demonstrate adherence to current science‐based
information and the standard of care recommended and followed by credentialed dog training and
behavior professionals. We join in voicing the objections you have already heard.
The Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers serves to establish and maintain a recognized level of
competence in dog training by certifying professional trainers through criteria based on continuing
education, experience, and standardized testing. Since 2001, the CCPDT has been the only independent
and psychometrically sound certification organization for professional dog trainers. Certification is granted
only after a candidate meets minimum experience‐based criteria and passes a psychometrically sound,
written examination proctored by independent agencies. Our certificants adhere to a strict code of ethics
and maintain the most up‐to‐date knowledge of the science of dog training by meeting minimum
continuing education requirements and maintaining their certification every three years. Our guiding
principles recognize the importance of adhering to current scientifically‐based, humane training methods.
Our certificants, Certified Professional Dog Trainers (CPDT) complete study in all domains on the
certification exam, including ethology and learning theory; must have verifiable experience in the field;
have references from colleagues, veterinarians and clients; and pass a certification exam verifying their
knowledge.* This is the only independent credential for professional dog trainers and is recognized by
several organizations including the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT; Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources). Mr. Millan does
not hold this credential. In fact, Mr. Millan holds no credentials. Many of his practices have been proven to
be dangerous and are not in line with the science‐based training that is practiced by today's credentialed
professionals. It should not be acceptable in Merial's view to use a non‐credentialed celebrity professional
to promote your products when there are credentialed professionals in the veterinary field who could
provide the same endorsement of your product.*
Merial should also be aware that non‐veterinary dog training professionals are strongly discouraged from
dispensing medical advice to clients, since this would inappropriately enter the realm of veterinarians and
veterinary behaviorists. To encourage Mr. Millan to cross the line into this medical realm is inappropriate at
best.
We do hope that you reconsider your marketing campaign with Mr. Millan. We would welcome the
opportunity to further discuss this issue with Merial.
Sincerely,


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Oblada said:


> From that article quoted earlier ; DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar
> "That means only one thing. Some people out there can't stand it when someone else with differing viewpoints, get so much media attention."
> 
> Sums up my view on this thread
> ...


Have you no comments for the rest of the article ??????


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Now now DD! it;s standard practive to have such a disclaimer! Next time their is a cookery programm on TV!!! Watch out for the disclaimer! and DONT be tempted to try it at home!!!
> lol
> DT
> Livinging the real world and laffing her head off!


Haha I never do try them at home


----------



## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I don't. I have not any point of being nasty or scarcastic to any person, and i still won't but can you answer the questions i put before???
> 
> These:
> 
> ...


Will just agree with cj anderson on this
but really is there any point in answering your questions as it is obvious that you would just argue against any answers given.

Each to their own opinion though but as said before topic has just turned in to a wee hate CM debate


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Will just agree with cj anderson on this
> but really is there any point in answering your questions as it is obvious that you would just argue against any answers given.
> 
> Each to their own opinion though but as said before topic has just turned in to a wee hate CM debate


Thanks for assuming i would argue 

I asked 2 simple questions and others could reply civilly! I don't mind that you don't want to answer but there was no need to assume that i would question your answers. 

Oh and it hasn't turned into a CM 'hate' thread at all, everyone has opinions. Its just that a lot have the same one.


----------



## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> Dogs live to survive, they wont show constant fear the way u expect them to after being abused!
> 
> An example (sadly a real one), a woman walks her dog off lead, happily (in other ppls mind) the dog runs about sniffing and looking. Then the woman approuches the dog (which still acts "normal"), it makes sit on command (shows no obvious signs as such of fear) and then she raises her arm in the air to scratch her head which straight away makes the dog to cower down, ears down in fear. Now what would anyone of u think seeing this in the local park??????????????? Surely that she must have been beating that dog, abusing in some way.
> 
> And that exact what happenes with cesar, the dogs act "normal" (in my eyes not really but for most of u they seem to do) until he makes the "shish" noise and any other movemts which trigger fear straight away because some sort of punishment had to follow this .....


Think you might be wrong there as my dogs have done this before and they are NEVER beaten . Just a reaction to movement You cannot assume this woman beat her dog just because it reacted in the way it did to her raising her arm.

Just the same as when I see my mums dog she rolls on her back and surrenders and I also have never done anything to make her fear me !!!


----------



## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Thanks for assuming i would argue
> 
> I asked 2 simple questions and others could reply civilly! I don't mind that you don't want to answer but there was no need to assume that i would question your answers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Acacia86 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for assuming i would argue
> ...


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

It bugs me how pro-CMers seem to think any debate is a CM hate campaign - which it isnt at all. Opinions are discussed from all sides; those for, those against and those on the fence who can see pros and cons. Just because one side may be heavier on numbers or references (websites/articles), doesnt make it a hate campaign...just a decent debate! And I think so far except a few little hiccups its been a good one!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> and its getting a bit too much for me you seem to be getting a bit upset too by peoples answers to your questions IE me .hmy:


If it is getting too much for you Why do you not just stop debating on this Thread??? I know I would


----------



## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Savahl said:


> It bugs me how pro-CMers seem to think any debate is a CM hate campaign - which it isnt at all. Opinions are discussed from all sides; those for, those against and those on the fence who can see pros and cons. Just because one side may be heavier on numbers or references (websites/articles), doesnt make it a hate campaign...just a decent debate! And I think so far except a few little hiccups its been a good one!


Sensible Observations Rep for ya


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Think you might be wrong there as my dogs have done this before and they are NEVER beaten . Just a reaction to movement You cannot assume this woman beat her dog just because it reacted in the way it did to her raising her arm.
> 
> Just the same as when I see my mums dog she rolls on her back and surrenders and I also have never done anything to make her fear me !!!


Again I agree - my bitch used to kind of cower sometimes when someone was holding a stick but she was certainly never beaten or abused in any way...



Acacia86 said:


> Thanks for assuming i would argue
> 
> I asked 2 simple questions and others could reply civilly! I don't mind that you don't want to answer but there was no need to assume that i would question your answers.
> 
> Oh and it hasn't turned into a CM 'hate' thread at all, everyone has opinions. Its just that a lot have the same one.


The way you've asked your question is not quite neutral and non-argumentative so its a reasonable assumption to make.

I would have to agree with CJ Anderson to start with.

Otherwise I can answer directly;

1. Would you stand there and watch and let CM hang your dog? Ues an e-collar? Pin him down?

I dont see CM hanging dogs so I dont think that could ever happen - if it did happen that ANYONE try to ACTUALLY HANG my dog i obviously would not allow it... its kind of a rhetorical question really...
Use an e-collar - if it was the last resort to save his life - Yes. 
Pin him down - if appropriate and without violence (as I see it being done in most circumstances by CM) again Yes.

2. What would be your very first thought if you were walking your dog in the park and you saw someone hanging their dog from his lead, then a few minutes later he was pinned to the ground??

It depends how it is done. 
Again I need to stress I have never seen CM advertising positively physically "hanging" the dog - if I saw a dog on a tight leash trying to pull ahead and be corrected by the owner I dont think I could judge them on that basis only. 
If i saw a dangerous dog being pinned to the ground in an efficient and pain free manner again I dont think I would judge them or challenge them.
I certainly would not report someone for using different techniques as I - it is really none of my business as long as the dog is not in pain. What kind of society is it where people start intervening into people's life just because others do not share the exact same views?



Savahl said:


> It bugs me how pro-CMers seem to think any debate is a CM hate campaign - which it isnt at all. Opinions are discussed from all sides; those for, those against and those on the fence who can see pros and cons. Just because one side may be heavier on numbers or references (websites/articles), doesnt make it a hate campaign...just a decent debate! And I think so far except a few little hiccups its been a good one!


I do feel it has become some kind of sarcastic vendetta, which is why most "pro-CMs" have stopped debating the subject - there is nothing to debate anyway as some see violence where others see respect - it is just a question of interpretation. 
And the "pro-side" do not need to come up with random references (if you knew the number of stupid articles - on others subjects - I come across each day!!) as they do not need to try to convince anyone including themselves. 
I take on board some of CM's thinking and apply it successfully, thats all that matters to me, not what others may turn his "teaching" into (thats more of a matter for him personally to deal with). We are all free to express our opinions, CM included, and free to decide what to do with our lives and in that case how to train our dogs, CM's "fans" and clients included.

xx


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

> I do feel it has become some kind of sarcastic vendetta, which is why most "pro-CMs" have stopped debating the subject - there is nothing to debate anyway as some see violence where others see respect - it is just a question of interpretation.
> And the "pro-side" do not need to come up with random references (if you knew the number of stupid articles - on others subjects - I come across each day!!) as they do not need to try to convince anyone including themselves.
> I take on board some of CM's thinking and apply it successfully, thats all that matters to me, not what others may turn his "teaching" into (thats more of a matter for him personally to deal with). We are all free to express our opinions, CM included, and free to decide what to do with our lives and in that case how to train our dogs, CM's "fans" and clients included.
> 
> xx


I wasnt suggesting the lack of referencing or articles makes your argument less valid - it just seems to be the way of this thread that one side has more reading material...maybe the anti CM camp feel the need to backup with evidence whereas the Pro-CM camp feel their dogs behaviour is evidence enough...who knows. 
There may have been a few jokes here and there, but its in the name of fun if anything, I dont see any nastiness here. I accept that some people like his methods and use them effectively, so long as they accept that I think it is alot of out dated methods and faulted theory. 
Not everyone buys into dominance theory, the same as not everyone buys into only using positive reinforcement... I use TTouch on buster and I am sure alot of people think that is mumbo jumbo, but it works for me so phooey to them 

I for one enjoy a good debate. I like hearing other peoples points of view and weighing up evidence pro and con on different things - without it turning into a cat fight and people getting stroppy because others disagree. It makes for an interesting thread. It is how we learn  and differences in people and their opinions are what give life colour xx


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Can anyone that likes Milan find any kind of article by a leading behaviourist or trainer that agrees with him and his methods, so far I've only seen ones from experts that disagree with him. I really would like to read a pro Milan article written by an expert.

Terri


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Kinski said:


> Can anyone that likes Milan find any kind of article by a leading behaviourist or trainer that agrees with him and his methods, so far I've only seen ones from experts that disagree with him. I really would like to read a pro Milan article written by an expert.
> 
> Terri


Good Idea It would even up the debate and maybe make some feel better lol Will go looky


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Cant find anything from a leading trainer but found this


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I for one enjoy a good debate. I like hearing other peoples points of view and weighing up evidence pro and con on different things - without it turning into a cat fight and people getting stroppy because others disagree. It makes for an interesting thread. It is how we learn  and differences in people and their opinions are what give life colour xx


I do enjoy a good debate too but I have one major issue with most CM debates; they are based on what we all see on the TV screen and we seem to have at least 2 major interpretations of what is happening miles away from us.

If I saw him actually hurting dogs I too would be "anti" CM but that is not what I see. If I thought he attributed everything to forceful dominance I too may disagree but I hear him explain that it is not so much dominance as lack of leadership, creating an unstable state for the dog (whether the dog himself is dominant or not is not the question - if the owner is not leading problems may occur because of that unstable state).

I hear the "anti" side come up with things about cruelty, blood, nastiness, violence, fear, strangling, punching, kicking and to be honest (and I am not alone!) I just dont see the link LOL so I dont see a point in debating (especially when it slides into sarcastic over the top comments - fun maybe - interesting no).

Nobody here is in favour of animal cruelty (regardless of what some would want to insinuate about "pro-CM" people lol). 
The only disagreement we have is about what CM actually does and on that we can only disagree as he is not here in person with us to show us properly


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Cant find anything from a leading trainer but found this


Not bad but it is a Blog and this part tends to put me off lol

**A fifth method Ive heard about is the alpha roll, although I have not seen it, this was described as rolling the dog on his **bag** and forcefully


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

gladwell dot com - What the Dog Saw


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Oblada said:


> The only disagreement we have is about what CM actually does and on that we can only disagree as he is not here in person with us to show us properly


My disagreement isnt about what he actually does (wrt cruelty etc etc) it is actually the whole thesis behind his method. I dont follow the dominance theory at all, dogs arent people, but nor are they wolves, nor do they see me as a dog/wolf, "pack leader" imo is a term used to describe behaviour within a pack and a true pack leader does not enforce its position, its a natural standing, anyway Im not a dog so I am lacking all the improtant canine language by walking on two legs and not having a tail or big teeth 

So regardless of whether he hurts dogs, the use of e-collars, alpha rolls etc, I just dont think that his methods or ideas are accurate - but thats just me


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I wasnt suggesting the lack of referencing or articles makes your argument less valid - it just seems to be the way of this thread that one side has more reading material...maybe the anti CM camp feel the need to backup with evidence whereas the Pro-CM camp feel their dogs behaviour is evidence enough...who knows.
> There may have been a few jokes here and there, but its in the name of fun if anything, I dont see any nastiness here. I accept that some people like his methods and use them effectively, so long as they accept that I think it is alot of out dated methods and faulted theory.
> Not everyone buys into dominance theory, the same as not everyone buys into only using positive reinforcement... I use TTouch on buster and I am sure alot of people think that is mumbo jumbo, but it works for me so phooey to them
> 
> I for one enjoy a good debate. I like hearing other peoples points of view and weighing up evidence pro and con on different things - without it turning into a cat fight and people getting stroppy because others disagree. It makes for an interesting thread. It is how we learn  and differences in people and their opinions are what give life colour xx


Great post you mkade there!
Sometimes a sense of humour lightens these type of threads up!
Appears to me some may be lacking this!
but hey! it takes all sorts to make the world go round! and I for sure ain't ready to get off yet!
lol
DT


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Think you might be wrong there as my dogs have done this before and they are NEVER beaten . Just a reaction to movement You cannot assume this woman beat her dog just because it reacted in the way it did to her raising her arm.
> 
> Just the same as when I see my mums dog she rolls on her back and surrenders and I also have never done anything to make her fear me !!!


Its a fear reaction when a dog cowers down, with ears down and a tensed up body. For whatever reason. I was only givin an example.

Can u explain to me why ALL the dogs on his show react with fear to the shish noise then? Because when i shish my dogs they dont even look at me nor do they show any reaction whatsoever.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> Its a fear reaction when a dog cowers down, with ears down and a tensed up body. For whatever reason. I was only givin an example.
> 
> Can u explain to me why ALL the dogs on his show react with fear to the shish noise then? Because when i shish my dogs they dont even look at me nor do they show any reaction whatsoever.


ive just tried the shish noise on my lot only ones bothered to even get up!! & shes just fussing me


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> ive just tried the shish noise on my lot only ones bothered to even get up!! & shes just fussing me


hehe ....


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

I just tried it too! they looked at me with their heads cocked to one side!! and the look of alertment in their eyes!! think they may have confused it with a new word for 'walk'


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I just tried it too! they looked at me with their heads cocked to one side!! and the look of alertment in their eyes!! think they may have confused it with a new word for 'walk'


Yep sshhh-ing my boy does absolutley bog all he tends to look up at me thinking what she on about and go back to whatever he is doing


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Thank you Oblada for answering my questions.

I respect your answers. Just because people don't agree in any way doesn't mean there has to any kind of anger and questionabilty of other people's choices.

I like a healthy debate! Its interesting to hear others answers.

I am actually very impressed with everyone who has posted on here. It has all gone very well considering most debates about something like this end up in mud slinging.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> Its a fear reaction when a dog cowers down, with ears down and a tensed up body. For whatever reason. I was only givin an example.
> 
> Can u explain to me why ALL the dogs on his show react with fear to the shish noise then? Because when i shish my dogs they dont even look at me nor do they show any reaction whatsoever.


Mine is more interested in my dinner than the shishing noise


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> Its a fear reaction when a dog cowers down, with ears down and a tensed up body. For whatever reason. I was only givin an example.
> 
> Can u explain to me why ALL the dogs on his show react with fear to the shish noise then? Because when i shish my dogs they dont even look at me nor do they show any reaction whatsoever.


I just tried it on mine and 2 of them stopped on the floor and just looked up at me, the other 3 came over thinking I was playing with them.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

i tried it on mine, one of them gave me a funny look before getting up for some fuss and the other just moaned and went back to sleep. he was not impressed and my calm assertivness.

must be doing it wrong!!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> i tried it on mine, one of them gave me a funny look before getting up for some fuss and the other just moaned and went back to sleep. he was not impressed and my calm assertivness.
> 
> must be doing it wrong!!


PMSL clearly something has gone wrong


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

I just thought Id post it again as nobody has taken any notice and I was assured this was a thread for a healthy and constructive debate and not just the vendetta I had unfairly accused it to be lol 
gladwell dot com - What the Dog Saw


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Oblada said:


> I just thought Id post it again as nobody has taken any notice and I was assured this was a thread for a healthy and constructive debate and not just the vendetta I had unfairly accused it to be lol
> gladwell dot com - What the Dog Saw


sorry, was going to read it but it looked to long, will read it when i have the time for it.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

to be fair, i havent read any of the articles regardless of side lol


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## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

Please read the articles mentioned; it's good to be informed.

Oblada - have read the entire article. Having a dance background, it was very interesting to read about movement and phrasing.

I wish Patricia McConnell had made a direct comment about Cesar, though.

Also, I'd like to know if the sessions mentioned where ones that were aired on TV, or ones where the journalist accompanied Cesar off-camera.

The bit about Cesar's relationship with Illusion was very interesting - I've never seen anything written about his marriage before.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I just thought Id post it again as nobody has taken any notice and I was assured this was a thread for a healthy and constructive debate and not just the vendetta I had unfairly accused it to be lol
> gladwell dot com - What the Dog Saw


But who was the person who wrote this article?
What knowledge or experience do they have?


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

rona said:


> But who was the person who wrote this article?
> What knowledge or experience do they have?


Good question! could be the Daily Sport!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

astro said:


> Please read the articles mentioned; it's good to be informed.
> 
> Oblada - have read the entire article. Having a dance background, it was very interesting to read about movement and phrasing.
> 
> ...


I thought the article was very interesting - everything on body language etc..things that are difficult to judge over a TV screen...

For the sessions - One mentioned in particular was the Jonbee one, which has been mentioned here as well, so its interesting to see a different point of view.



rona said:


> But who was the person who wrote this article?
> What knowledge or experience do they have?


You can research the background of everybody who gives their opinion if you want.
I do not always wish to, I prefer to read first and start making my mind on that basis first. I read enough articles written by "experts" which are complete bull**** and I have come across some written by complete "newbies" or students that are fantastic...
I could have said the same about every article mentioned - but then it is difficult to judge those things, professional titles can mean a lot or very little...


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Oblada said:


> You can research the background of everybody who gives their opinion if you want.
> I do not always wish to, I prefer to read first and start making my mind on that basis first. I read enough articles written by "experts" which are complete bull**** and I have come across some written by complete "newbies" or students that are fantastic...
> I could have said the same about every article mentioned - but then it is difficult to judge those things, professional titles can mean a lot or very little...


Yes but it could have been written by his wife or best friend


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I thought the article was very interesting - everything on body language etc..things that are difficult to judge over a TV screen...
> 
> For the sessions - One mentioned in particular was the Jonbee one, which has been mentioned here as well, so its interesting to see a different point of view.
> 
> ...


So professional titles do NOT count then! little confusing following your post on the lab thread stating the complete reverse!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So professional titles do NOT count then! little confusing following your post on the lab thread stating the complete reverse!


Thanks DT but I said; professional titles can mean a lot or very little - it depends on the situation.
On the other thread (although really this is irrelevant to this topic...but whatever) I stated that I can understand sb listening to a vet (someone she knows in person and to some extent trust with the life of her pets) over internet forumers (whom she does not know) - even though I agreed that it may actually happen to be the wrong decision - I too thought vets always knew best - and with time and experience I realised that it isnt true!

Rona - dont read the article if you do not want to, fine. 
I still think you can have a view over an article regardless of the credentials of who wrote it. You can think it is totally biased, fine. Or it can help you see things from a different perspective...


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

I use to like Cesar Millian then i opened my eyes and saw him for what he really was..an evil, stupied, man that claims he knows so much about dogs when the truth is he knows very little.... 

So i have seen it from both point of views!! Now i just choose to see it for what it really is!!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I use to like Cesar Millian then i opened my eyes and saw him for what he really was..an evil, stupied, man that claims he knows so much about dogs when the truth is he knows very little....
> 
> So i have seen it from both point of views!! Now i just choose to see it for what it really is!!


I see Cesar at brilliant really cut out for a job! and brilliant at it! he would make zillions!!! advertising toothpaste!
lol
DT
xx


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Rona - dont read the article if you do not want to, fine.
> I still think you can have a view over an article regardless of the credentials of who wrote it. You can think it is totally biased, fine. Or it can help you see things from a different perspective...


I did read quite a bit of it, but found it rather fanciful


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

OH was reading over my shoulder and wants to put his imput so i have to quote him

"hes american, of course hes wrong, i dont know anything about animals but even i can see hes an idiot, i could do a better job then him, end of argument"

sorry, hes very opinionated and he insisted!!! bless him.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> OH was reading over my shoulder and wants to put his imput so i have to quote him
> 
> "hes american, of course hes wrong, i dont know anything about animals but even i can see hes an idiot, i could do a better job then him, end of argument"
> 
> sorry, hes very opinionated and he insisted!!! bless him.


Tell him!
I believe him Cassie And that he speaks a lot of sense!!
lol
DT


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Oblada said:


> Thanks DT but I said; professional titles can mean a lot or very little - it depends on the situation.
> On the other thread (although really this is irrelevant to this topic...but whatever) I stated that I can understand sb listening to a vet (someone she knows in person and to some extent trust with the life of her pets) over internet forumers (whom she does not know) - even though I agreed that it may actually happen to be the wrong decision - I too thought vets always knew best - and with time and experience I realised that it isnt true!
> 
> Rona - dont read the article if you do not want to, fine.
> I still think you can have a view over an article regardless of the credentials of who wrote it. You can think it is totally biased, fine. Or it can help you see things from a different perspective...


There is absolutely no point Oblada. I bowed out of this debate back on page 30 something. If I honestly thought that my opinions on this subject would be listened to then I would give them. But people are absolutely obsessed. To the point where your link is not even read.

Obviously the millions and millions of people who do think he does a great job, obviously support animal cruelty???? There are far more CM supporters than anti (otherwise he wouldn;t be so successful), but there is no point try to debate a subject with people who cannot see where you are coming from, or refuse to - not sure which.

I just wanted to add my support to you, because you are a bit "on your own". But I am NOT getting into this debate again! x


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

I did start to read the link,however when I got to the Jonbee one I closed it,I couldn't read it after watching the horrendous video I saw, whereby that dog could have been seriously hurt.

Sorry


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> Its a fear reaction when a dog cowers down, with ears down and a tensed up body. For whatever reason. I was only givin an example.
> 
> Can u explain to me why ALL the dogs on his show react with fear to the shish noise then? Because when i shish my dogs they dont even look at me nor do they show any reaction whatsoever.


Were you shishing them for a reason ?? because it will only work when the dog knows why you are shishing them !!

i.e I could say to my dog woo woo and it would just look at me , why ? because it has not been taught what woo woo means


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> If it is getting too much for you Why do you not just stop debating on this Thread??? I know I would


Had to reply to posts that had quoted me


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> lilacbabe said:
> 
> 
> > Not at all!!! I am confident in my own opinion and yet still respect others.
> ...


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Were you shishing them for a reason ?? because it will only work when the dog knows why you are shishing them !!
> 
> i.e I could say to my dog woo woo and it would just look at me , why ? because it has not been taught what woo woo means


Exactly 'shishing' them will only work if they have been taught it means a 'bad' thing 

My poor boy has a lot of issues, many relating to the way he been treated before he came to me.

For instance: He pulls like mad on the lead.....would i have him 'trained' by methods that reduce him to walk beside me not through learning but by fear?? No i wouldn't.

He used to lunge at dogs, not aggressively, would i strangle him to 'teach him' no i wouldn't. (i have got past this through many months of reward based patient methods)

If he agressively went for another dog would i alpha-roll him? No i wouldn't. 
Simply because 1. It would extremely dangerous. 2. He would do it out of fear. 3. I would be no better than any of his previous owners. and 4. I want real true trust between us.

I strongly believe that true trust develops through patience, love, understanding and gentle treatment of the animal in question.

I truly do respect others opinions. I always have and always will. It is a way of life!!

But i would be very interested to know if in any CM training programme the dog he reduces to submission................urinates subconsiously?? Beau still does after months of being treated with respect, understanding and pure love.

Many dogs have this problem. I know, i deal with it first hand. It is heart-breaking to think that even after nearly 8 months he still doesn't 100% trust the fact i would never, ever, treat him without absolute love and softness.

Although i did understand after what the poor boy has been through it will take possibly years for real trust to develop.

But i will be honest in assuming i really thought he would never need to feel scared again. (in leaking a little urine when he is.....I.E when i even raise my voice a tiny bit, not even towards him) But once it is instilled in them it can last years........if not for life


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Acacia86 said:
> 
> 
> > No not too worked up and would take too long to answer thats why I just agreed with cj anderson . So really did answer your 2 questions just not in my own words.
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Exactly 'shishing' them will only work if they have been taught it means a 'bad' thing
> 
> My poor boy has a lot of issues, many relating to the way he been treated before he came to me.
> 
> ...


great post Acacia! dogs Can be trained extremely successfully using kind methods which build up trust, i dont like the idea of 'forcing' an animal to do something...

this is what the 4Paws University Dog Training has said about the 'Dog Whisperer'....

CONCLUSION

Is exercise important? Absolutely! Do dogs need rules and boundaries? Certainly! Do humans need to stop equating dogs to humans and gain a greater understanding of dog behavior? Definitely! But how these goals are accomplished are of equal importance.

A basic understanding of canine behavior can give dog owners the knowledge they need to determine the right training methods for their dog and avoid those methods that offer new age explanations or pop psychology to sell old and potentially dangerous methods in a new package.

The fact that the show's very foundation is flawed should be enough to make dog owners think twice before buying into the methods promoted. However, in our media-centric society, if it's on television, it must be true


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

This thread is going nowhere - thanks Goodvic by the way for your support 

I will just finish by saying this:
According to me CM's methods do not rely on fear but on trust - on being a calm, assertive pack leader - corrections are not followed because the dog is afraid but because he is clear about what is asked of him and who is in charge. Corrections are not the opposite of love, quite the contrary. Correcting allows the dog to know how he should behave, telling it in a clear way thus leading to a balanced dog.
And I need to say it again; according to me CM does not strangle dogs.
His methods are based on making it clear that he is in charge and thus gaining the respect and obedience of the dogs, getting them in a calm state of mind because they know he is in charge.

If you read the article I posted - its very long but skim through and look at the bit on Jonbee, when someone describes CM's body language, its very interesting.

CM also adapts his methods to each and every dog - it is probably why there is a need for a disclaimer as too forward techniques may be detrimental to a weaker dog...Almost anything to do with dogs involves some risk as it involves a live animal that can inflict injury.

Acacia - maybe your dog would be less fearful if you were a confident pack leader instead of trying to reassure him and thus showing him weakness which keeps him in an unstable state (just a wild assumption, dont take it personally I do not know you or your dogs, I am just using your example to make my point).

Anyway I will leave this here, it has gone on well and I can see some members are genuinely interested in a good debate.
However I also feel some are just here to add fuel to the fire hoping to egg on members enough to cause havoc. 

And finally according to me this debate has reached full circle anyway 

xx


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Don't see a problem with these type of threads myself, and however many times they are raised there will never ever be a final conclusion. CM is high profile at the moment, he is perhaps one of the best know dog trainers/handlers in the world! Had the forum been debating these subjects thirty years ago the subject would probably and been Barbara Woodhouse and the outcome would have been exactly the same, An ongoing circle!
DT


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Oblada said:


> This thread is going nowhere - thanks Goodvic by the way for your support
> 
> I will just finish by saying this:
> According to me CM's methods do not rely on fear but on trust - on being a calm, assertive pack leader - corrections are not followed because the dog is afraid but because he is clear about what is asked of him and who is in charge. Corrections are not the opposite of love, quite the contrary. Correcting allows the dog to know how he should behave, telling it in a clear way thus leading to a balanced dog.
> ...


How many times have you said you leaving this thread


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> How many times have you said you leaving this thread


OH MY GOD!! I said I was leaving a thread and I did NOT??? HOW AWFUL!! HOW TERRIBLE!! AND IM DOING IT AGAIN!

oh wait...
no its not an offence
last time I checked I was still free to do as I wanted
oh and yes it is only an internet forum...

mm sorry...   

And to answer your (very relevant obviously) question; not that many times if you care to check (cannot be bothered to be honest).

But thanks for that Badger's mum...

just want to add - sorry Badger's mum I did not spot at first the remark directed at me that you had inserted into my "quote" - to answer that - no it was not directed at myself however if you do have a specific problem with what I say on the forum I suggest you make it clear but possibly preferably by PM so as not to tarnish what looks like a "well-behaved" thread so far


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Oblada said:


> OH MY GOD!! I said I was leaving a thread and I did NOT??? HOW AWFUL!! HOW TERRIBLE!! AND IM DOING IT AGAIN!
> 
> oh wait...
> no its not an offence
> ...


No problem i'm alway's here to please:dita::dita: If only i could take the smile away


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Oblada said:


> OH MY GOD!! I said I was leaving a thread and I did NOT??? HOW AWFUL!! HOW TERRIBLE!! AND IM DOING IT AGAIN!
> 
> oh wait...
> no its not an offence
> ...


If you are genuinely not bothered I cannot see the point in your reply myself!
Sarcasm & barbed comments have never been my style personally! but then there are those amongst us......................that love to sit back and watch!!! After they have stirred the pot that is!!
DT


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> If you are genuinely not bothered I cannot see the point in your reply myself!
> Sarcasm & barbed comments have never been my style personally! but then there are those amongst us......................that love to sit back and watch!!! After they have stirred the pot that is!!
> DT


I agree do like this lady's coment's last thing at night better than pill's


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> If you are genuinely not bothered I cannot see the point in your reply myself!
> Sarcasm & barbed comments have never been my style personally! but then there are those amongst us......................that love to sit back and watch!!! After they have stirred the pot that is!!
> DT


I did not say I was not bothered - only that the debate itself was a bit circling around and therefore not wanting to continue the debate.

But I can still (thank you very much) react to direct personal comment (quite irrelevant to the debate itself), whether you see a point in it or not.
Sarcasm has never been your style? mm oki if you say so, i suppose its always tricky to interpret things correctly on an online forum.

I was not sarcastic on the actual debate nor did I try to stir anybody on - I want to keep the debate as peaceful as possible.

However the way I see it sarcasm can be answered by sarcasm, nothing wrong with that.

And Badger's mum - thanks for your rude comment on my input to this debate - uncalled for.

xx


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Looks like I am back just in the nick of time 

Now come on children, whats been going on in my absence. PLEASE play nicely otherwise the thread will be closed and I DETEST closed threads.

Anyway, I know you all love Cesar really


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Nina said:


> Looks like I am back just in the nick of time
> 
> Anyway, I know you all love Cesar really


Like a hole in the Bl**dy head Nina


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Nina said:


> Looks like I am back just in the nick of time
> 
> Now come on children, whats been going on in my absence. PLEASE play nicely otherwise the thread will be closed and I DETEST closed threads.
> 
> Anyway, I know you all love Cakes really


agreed!!!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Like a hole in the Bl**dy head Nina


So I take it that a plaster, or in your case DT, a bandage is required :001_tt2::lol:


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Nina said:


> So I take it that a plaster, or in your case DT, a bandage is required :001_tt2::lol:


Full body cocoon please!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Nina said:


> Looks like I am back just in the nick of time
> 
> Now come on children, whats been going on in my absence. PLEASE play nicely otherwise the thread will be closed and I DETEST closed threads.
> 
> Anyway, I know you all love Cesar really


I agree Nina good post x


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Natik said:


> Dogs live to survive, they wont show constant fear the way u expect them to after being abused!
> 
> An example (sadly a real one), a woman walks her dog off lead, happily (in other ppls mind) the dog runs about sniffing and looking. Then the woman approuches the dog (which still acts "normal"), it makes sit on command (shows no obvious signs as such of fear) and then she raises her arm in the air to scratch her head which straight away makes the dog to cower down, ears down in fear. Now what would anyone of u think seeing this in the local park??????????????? Surely that she must have been beating that dog, abusing in some way.
> 
> And that exact what happenes with cesar, the dogs act "normal" (in my eyes not really but for most of u they seem to do) until he makes the "shish" noise and any other movemts which trigger fear straight away because some sort of punishment had to follow this .....


Actually if i do this Bess cowers, its because she used to be beaten by her previous owner, not by me? I'm not beating or abusing her, its not the same in everycase  I see your point though


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Were you shishing them for a reason ?? because it will only work when the dog knows why you are shishing them !!
> 
> i.e I could say to my dog woo woo and it would just look at me , why ? because it has not been taught what woo woo means


I dont understand u? I was shishing them when i wanted to stop them chewing .... no reaction.

What does "shish" means to the dogs then on the show, as they all react with fear? Could u answer that?

When i say "leave" to my dogs they leave whatever they were doing but none of them will cower down in fear as as simple is that --> i have never used any kind of punishment to teach the "leave" command. Simple and Straight forward.....


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Precisely Natik! What does the Shish mean!!!
I have just tried it again! but this time I have altered my tone! One dog has remained laid on the sofa! All be it the her ears did prick up!
The other has come over to me!!! maybe to see why mum is making strange noises that they do not understand!

I did get a slightly more response from the grandson!! Whats up Nan!! he said!

So yep! if someone could explain what the 'shish actually represents, and why the dgos affected by is in such a way maybe It would give me ( for one) a better understanding!
regards
DT

I'll add! if I started to add this in our training class I am pretty certain they would be calling for the little yellow van to cart me away!!


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Precisely Natik! What do the Shish mean!!!
> I have just tried it again! but this time I have altered my tone! One dog has remained laid on the sofa! All be it the her ears did prick up!
> The other has come over to me!!! maybe to see why mum is making strange noises that they do not understand!
> 
> ...


shish DT......shish DT........


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> shish DT......shish DT........


whats that!!! a bl**dy kebab! it would have more effect guaranteed!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> whats that!!! a bl**dy kebab! it's have more effect guaranteed!


That is so funny!!


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> whats that!!! a bl**dy kebab! it would have more effect guaranteed!


PMSL......  a kebab always gets the dogs under control in our house...


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Can ask those who like CM why is, his body language so important ?

Dogs are dogs,not humans,not wolves,so why does CM expect dogs to read his body language,the dogs know he isn't a dog,he doesn't give off the same language.

I don't expect my dogs to read my body language,they can't do it,it's totally foreign to them,however I do expect them to do as they have been asked when they have been trained to do so.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Can ask those who like CM why is, his body language so important ?
> 
> Dogs are dogs,not humans,not wolves,so why does CM expect dogs to read his body language,the dogs know he isn't a dog,he doesn't give off the same language.
> 
> I don't expect my dogs to read my body language,they can't do it,it's totally foreign to them,however I do expect them to do as they have been asked when they have been trained to do so.


there have been studies that show that dogs do learn to read our body languages to a degree. Apparantly emotions show better on one side of your face (cant remember which) and dogs have picked up to look at this side when they great you to judge what mood your in, apparantly people do this too, subconsiously, the only difference is that if you trun a face upside down people can change which side they look at and still understand, a dog cant. its almost instinct, they learn it as young pups.

but i do agree with you, they dont understand human body language the way we do, just as we will never be able to fully understand dog body language, no matter how hard we try its still just a best fit guess.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Precisely Natik! What does the Shish mean!!!
> I have just tried it again! but this time I have altered my tone! One dog has remained laid on the sofa! All be it the her ears did prick up!
> The other has come over to me!!! maybe to see why mum is making strange noises that they do not understand!
> 
> ...


ita a load of shish dt


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Can ask those who like CM why is, his body language so important ?
> 
> Dogs are dogs,not humans,not wolves,so why does CM expect dogs to read his body language,the dogs know he isn't a dog,he doesn't give off the same language.
> 
> I don't expect my dogs to read my body language,they can't do it,it's totally foreign to them,however I do expect them to do as they have been asked when they have been trained to do so.


of course they understand body language, as do horses. If a dog is coming at you aggressively and you relax, dont have eye contact and turn sideways or turn your back the dog is highly unlikely to keep coming at you. If you make yourself big and puff yourself up most dogs will be intimidated. If the dog is nervous and you make yourself small and non threatening it is far more likely to relax and approach you. Just a few examples of when body language is important. And an obedience dog follows body signals (slightly different because it is trained to). A deep breath which raises your chest is enough to make your dog come in closer and do a straighter sit and also enough to get you marked down if the judge notices. A dropped shoulder will make the dog drop back in heelwork, a raised shoulder will get the dog to hold its position well - and again will lose you marks.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> there have been studies that show that dogs do learn to read our body languages to a degree. Apparantly emotions show better on one side of your face (cant remember which) and dogs have picked up to look at this side when they great you to judge what mood your in, apparantly people do this too, subconsiously, the only difference is that if you trun a face upside down people can change which side they look at and still understand, a dog cant. its almost instinct, they learn it as young pups.
> 
> but i do agree with you, they dont understand human body language the way we do, just as we will never be able to fully understand dog body language, no matter how hard we try its still just a best fit guess.


Thanks,
So another question why does CM then expect dogs to read his language,
Should we expect them ?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Precisely Natik! What does the Shish mean!!!
> I have just tried it again! but this time I have altered my tone! One dog has remained laid on the sofa! All be it the her ears did prick up!
> The other has come over to me!!! maybe to see why mum is making strange noises that they do not understand!
> 
> ...


Now imo the Shishhhh works on the dogs that Milan does it to because he has already been poking, prodding or kicking the dog whilst saying Shishhh So the dogs remember the hit with the Shishhh noise


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nina said:


> Looks like I am back just in the nick of time
> 
> Now come on children, whats been going on in my absence. PLEASE play nicely otherwise the thread will be closed and I DETEST closed threads.
> 
> Anyway, I know you all love Cesar really


Sorry Nina i won't do it again


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## princesspinky (Jul 28, 2009)

Just to let you know. When you see these videos with him training dogs in there home enviroment. They are NOT cesar's collars, they are the owners. Ceaser only likes to use those rope leash things. 
I am 100% for Cesar Milan!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> Sorry Nina i won't do it again


Fraid I can't make the same promise Nina! BUT! I shall watch my P's & Q's and respond to the posts tgo the best of my ability!!! Which it appears is somewhat lacking!!! poor DT maybe we should call her Peter Pan!!
lol
DT


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok I'm going to responde to this thread after debating whether I shou8ld or not for quite a while.

Just before I start, I'd like to clarify that I am NOT currently a dog owner. I have owned dogs in the past (parents dogs) but now I do not live with them so do not have a dog.

I have read about Cesar Milan, watched some of his shows (Please note though I have not seen many. Just enough to gain a general idea) and seen his methods. I agree with some people on here that yes, some of his methods are cruel. SOME of them.

What I don't understand is why people are either all for him and think the sun shines out of his a$$ and why others are all against him and think he is the devil incarnate.

Some of his methods are good, I watched one of his programs the other day (The one with the dalmation at the fire station?) and the methods he used in that program were, in my opinion, useful and worked well. Using simple distraction tecniques, that dog become a lot more obedient. I canlt honestly say how long it took for that change to occur, what with editing etc, but how can you say a method like that is cruel?

On the flip side of the coin, I have heard about methods in which he has used choke chains incorrectly, electric collars and basically scared the dog into submission. I cannot personally comment on these as I have never seen them in action. I can however say that these are methods I do not agree with, unless it is a very extreme circumstance.

Overall, I believe that his 'pack leader' mentality leaves no room for reward or praise, which is what dogs crave. I mean how can you expect your dog to do something if there is no praise or reward for it atall? I think that some of his methods would work far better if he were to implement positive reinforcement as well as the pack leader mentality. I'm sure some people will disagree and say you can only have one or the other, but I think that to praise a dog when it does something good is a good, long term solution to reinforcing that behaviour.

Right, I'm off to hide now. I haven't read through this thread but I know how they can get. *Waits for my opinion to be shouted down*

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Oblada said:


> This thread is going nowhere - thanks Goodvic by the way for your support
> 
> I will just finish by saying this:
> According to me CM's methods do not rely on fear but on trust - on being a calm, assertive pack leader - corrections are not followed because the dog is afraid but because he is clear about what is asked of him and who is in charge. Corrections are not the opposite of love, quite the contrary. Correcting allows the dog to know how he should behave, telling it in a clear way thus leading to a balanced dog.
> ...


I do not reassure him when he is fearful! He also knows his place in our house.

And while i do understand a lot of things our dogs do is related to instinct which in turn stems from where they came from, but on the other hand our dogs are not wild!! They have been domesticated for 100's of years, and have lived with humans in human houses and abiding by human rules. We have moulded them into what they are today. So i do believe that some things our dogs do are not related to the ''wild pack'' in any way shape or form!


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> lilacbabe said:
> 
> 
> > But that was not your answer was it? It was someone else you were using.
> ...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

On the flip side of the coin, I have heard about methods in which he has used choke chains incorrectly, electric collars and basically scared the dog into submission. 


Akai Chan I have taken the above line from your post as this is why I think Cesar is the "Devil Incarnate"
I find these things Cruel and it would only take me to see it once to know I did not like the person dishing it out


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I do not reassure him when he is fearful! He also knows his place in our house.
> 
> And while i do understand a lot of things our dogs do is related to instinct which in turn stems from where they came from, but on the other hand our dogs are not wild!! They have been domesticated for 100's of years, and have lived with humans in human houses and abiding by human rules. We have moulded them into what they are today. So i do believe that some things our dogs do are not related to the ''wild pack'' in any way shape or form!


There again I dissagree with you. The "wild Pack " is built in to all dogs , granted it may be stronger in some dogs . That is why even though I trust my dogs with small children I would never leave them alone with one.

Look at all the cases of dogs attacking babies why did they do that ?? Babies can make squeaking noises just like rats , mice, so the dogs instinct is to kill . Even though the dog has been a family pet for years.

An abandoned dog left to its own devices, after being domesticated will go back to its basic instincts that is to fight, kill etc to survive.

As for the shish noise you can all have a laugh but of course if your dog has not been trained to know what it means it will not work. How you train your dog and how I train my dogs will be totally different . For example ask my big girl to "leave" something doesent work but ask her to "give" and she does.

CM will nudge a dog and say shish when he wants it to do something ,then he eventually only needs to say shish and the dog will listen and respond just an alternative to no really quite simple:smilewinkgrin: And they do not react with fear , what do your dogs do when you tell them "no " they must react in some way ? well shish is the same.

Perhaps you all should watch the programmes and see how he uses it :idea:

You also say Acacia, that your dog knows its place in your house ? what exactly do you mean by that ? sounds as if you are the "pack leader " if not how do you see yourself in relation to your dog ?


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

clueless said:


> On the flip side of the coin, I have heard about methods in which he has used choke chains incorrectly, electric collars and basically scared the dog into submission.
> 
> Akai Chan I have taken the above line from your post as this is why I think Cesar is the "Devil Incarnate"
> I find these things Cruel and it would only take me to see it once to know I did not like the person dishing it out


I also find these methods cruel and I do not agree with them. I honestly do not like the man one bit, I just think that some of his training methods are still good and useful and could be a long term solution to behavioural problems if they are reinforced with positive training. I personally, would never use any of the aforementioned equipment/techniques (I use the term very loosely) on any dog I owned as I agree that they are cruel, harsh and unnecessary measures to use on any creature.

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

I've used a check chain but like cm does. I was shown how to use it. Maybe i should pass my trainer's no on the cm


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Can't seem to leave the thread alone! Don't know why I bother! but here I go again!

Forgetting any disclaimers (which I have already mentioned) But these are a load of old balony to me! I mean honestly!! who seriously watch'es a 'dog training/socializng clip and then thinks to themselves! heck that was good! but wait a minute! I can't try is at home!!! seriously !! who does! bit like having a cooking programme with a warning 'not to try at home!
A load of old tosh!!!

So here was are again, back to the old EC's when I first purchased mine almost ten years ago! They were almost unheard of!! and I doubt very much you would have found one on ebay! OK we know they have been around for many many years! but they were never so freely available as they are today!!!

OK some of you say ! they have their uses! REally are you certain of that I aSK!! wHY YES! for instance they can save a dogs life! you say! and how would that be I ask!!! Well you say! lets just say that a dog is chasing a car and is in sever danger of being run over, as nothing in the more conventional training methods had had any effect of thios habit! The only thing that worked was by using an ECollar!!! 

Really!! Well lets just look at it another way shall we! A dog is chasing a car down the road! you are approaching a busy cross road! no amount of shouting or yelling is going to stop the dog! yet in you hand you hold the key to stopping this! a little magic box!!! So you frantically press the button again and again and again! At the same time you notice a person in close proximity on a bicycle!! Oh dear! your dog just attaked them! I wonder why!

Don't take a genius to work it out does it!!!

Yes! there are very very rare cases when an EC COULD work! but accurate timing needs to be applied!! And this is a major flaw! to resort to using this contraption many are frantic, and as such apply the shocks in a frantic manner !!! Control is the key! and I very much doubt that in the above sinario that you would remain calm!!!! AND NO never would I use one!

In my opinion CM has been a major asset to the EC companies! he must have made the bl**dy millions! Look at the amount there are on ebay alone!! and lets face it! they must be good because CM approves of them!!

Yeah Right!!!
DT


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can't seem to leave the thread alone! Don't know why I bother! but here I go again!
> 
> Forgetting any disclaimers (which I have already mentioned) But these are a load of old balony to me! I mean honestly!! who seriously watch'es a 'dog training/socializng clip and then thinks to themselves! heck that was good! but wait a minute! I can't try is at home!!! seriously !! who does! bit like having a cooking programme with a warning 'not to try at home!
> A load of old tosh!!!
> ...


good post!


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can't seem to leave the thread alone! Don't know why I bother! but here I go again!
> 
> Forgetting any disclaimers (which I have already mentioned) But these are a load of old balony to me! I mean honestly!! who seriously watch'es a 'dog training/socializng clip and then thinks to themselves! heck that was good! but wait a minute! I can't try is at home!!! seriously !! who does! bit like having a cooking programme with a warning 'not to try at home!
> A load of old tosh!!!
> ...


Very good post!

I don't care who likes CM or who doesn't... IMHO... the use of E-collars is barbaric & no one will ever convince me otherwise...


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Dingle said:


> Very good post!
> 
> I don't care who likes CM or who doesn't... IMHO... the use of E-collars is barbaric & no one will ever convince me otherwise...


Wasn't it made in the first place to keep dog's away from snake's. I can understand them being used for that. But not as a lazy man's training tool. I like to think my dog's enjoy thier training as we have fun doing it I alway's thought training through fun work's best not pain


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can't seem to leave the thread alone! Don't know why I bother! but here I go again!
> 
> Forgetting any disclaimers (which I have already mentioned) But these are a load of old balony to me! I mean honestly!! who seriously watch'es a 'dog training/socializng clip and then thinks to themselves! heck that was good! but wait a minute! I can't try is at home!!! seriously !! who does! bit like having a cooking programme with a warning 'not to try at home!
> A load of old tosh!!!
> ...


Great post I agree,
Also wanted to add the dog could run straight into the path off an oncoming car anyway as it tries to escape or tries running away from the shock.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> Wasn't it made in the first place to keep dog's away from snake's.


That's certainly what Milan used one on Daddy for.
I've posted this before on this thread but for anyone wanting to understand dog's body language get Canine body language by Brenda Aloff BrendaAloff.com Homepage

Terri


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Kinski said:


> That's certainly what Milan used one on Daddy for.
> I've posted this before on this thread but for anyone wanting to understand dog's body language get Canine body language by Brenda Aloff BrendaAloff.com Homepage
> 
> Terri


I have no problem with it being used to stop them going near a snake as there's no second chance with a snake


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i still would like someone who supports cesar to answer me why ALL the dogs on his show cower down in fear when he "shishess" them. What does he do to train them to react this way?

Because whatever command i give from a - z i dont get this fear reaction from my dogs.....


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I've just "Shished" my dog for the first time and he has taken off at a rate of knots and brought me back his squeaky toy.


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## Lergy (Jul 30, 2009)

I am a newbie to the forum and very surprised to find out ppl do not like cesar and his mothods. What is the problem ? Almost all problems that dogs have are caused by bad handlers. If you have dogs with the extreme behavioural problems that these have what are you supposed to do ? Have them all put done or deal with the individual cases sensibly and effectively. Slip chains are a perfectly good way to teach a dog not to pull. In my opinion all harnesses should be burned. There are two exceptions which should wear a harness Huskies and Clydesdale horses as it TEACHES them to pull. When used correctly the dog is given a consequence for pulling and a reward for walking nicely as the slip tightens and slackens automatically unless of course you have it on upside down as a lot of people do not realise there is a right way and a wrong way to put them on.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

the problem with slip leads and check chains is that people missuse them, they yank on it, which can cause serious injury, or strangle them with it!!!! its an chep effective tool that can be brought by anyone to inflict torture on an animal, if used correctly its not so bad, but a lot of people dont!!!

also id rather my dog walked to heal because he wanted to not because it cut of his air supply if he didnt.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> the problem with slip leads and check chains is that people missuse them, they yank on it, which can cause serious injury, or strangle them with it!!!! its an chep effective tool that can be brought by anyone to inflict torture on an animal, if used correctly its not so bad, but a lot of people dont!!!
> 
> also id rather my dog walked to heal because he wanted to not because it cut of his air supply if he didnt.


including cesar himself..... he certainly doesnt know how to use those training aids properly.... but might be because he is not a trainer  lololol


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

this is going slightly off topic here but i just want to ask why people still believe in the pack theory???

dogs evolved form wolves, yes.....over 15000 years ago!! why do people still think they are the same when there are wild dogs (canis familiaris) in the world to day which behave almost nothing like wolves??? surely it is better to compare domestic dogs to wild dogs as opposed to wolves

people evolved from great apes, yes but that doesnt mean im going to start eating bugs and throwing my own poo!!!

ok people might have been evolved for a longer period of time but generationwise there is not so much difference, you can get more dog generations to one human one, and it only takes 4 dog generations to breed in or out a trait to a large degree.

i cant understand why people insist on being a pack leader and using wolves as an example after all those years. particually when wild dogs do not live in packs!! wild dogs are more like our foxes today, they are relativly solitary, occasionally living in family groups, ie mother and young, therefore no "pack mentality". they are scavengers first and foremost and so do not have very strong hunting instincts. 

i honestly do not understand why so many people seem to think they have a wolf in their livingroom, they are dogs, end of!!is it some kind of wierd fantasy people have, make things seem a bit more dangerous or some ego boost?? some one please tell me because it is something i have never understood and no one has ever tried to explain it for me.


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## princesspinky (Jul 28, 2009)

Lergy said:


> I am a newbie to the forum and very surprised to find out ppl do not like cesar and his mothods. What is the problem ? Almost all problems that dogs have are caused by bad handlers. If you have dogs with the extreme behavioural problems that these have what are you supposed to do ? Have them all put done or deal with the individual cases sensibly and effectively. Slip chains are a perfectly good way to teach a dog not to pull. In my opinion all harnesses should be burned. There are two exceptions which should wear a harness Huskies and Clydesdale horses as it TEACHES them to pull. When used correctly the dog is given a consequence for pulling and a reward for walking nicely as the slip tightens and slackens automatically unless of course you have it on upside down as a lot of people do not realise there is a right way and a wrong way to put them on.


I agree 100% with you!


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## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

Kinski said:


> That's certainly what Milan used one on Daddy for.
> I've posted this before on this thread but for anyone wanting to understand dog's body language get Canine body language by Brenda Aloff BrendaAloff.com Homepage
> 
> Terri


Hi Terri,

Is this book available to buy in the UK?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> Can ask those who like CM why is, his body language so important ?
> 
> Dogs are dogs,not humans,not wolves,so why does CM expect dogs to read his body language,the dogs know he isn't a dog,he doesn't give off the same language.
> 
> I don't expect my dogs to read my body language,they can't do it,it's totally foreign to them,however I do expect them to do as they have been asked when they have been trained to do so.


I think body language is extremely important Sally. The majority of us dog owners have long had the experience of simply looking towards a dog lead, to find that Rover is now headed for the door in anticipation of a walk! This may seem a normal occurrence to us, but it is significant to scientists since it is an indication to how a dog thinks. This also shows that dogs certainly do have the ability to read human body language. It also shows that dogs see our movements and gestures as containing important clues as to what will happen in their world.

My first GSD was incredibly sensitive to my feelings. In fact I did participate in a thread a while back on this very subject, which I believe, was how animals can help depression. He shared all manner of my emotions and read my body language better than my husband!

I know that Hertfordshire University have been studying "social cognition" in dogs. Researching how dogs read clues into the behaviour of others. Their studies show how all social mammals have evolved remarkably discriminating ways of reading the signals sent to them by their group members, normally members of the same species. However recent research shows that dogs are surprisingly good at reading certain types of social cues in humans.

I am taking CM out of this equation and using my own personal experiences here


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## MurphyMoo (Nov 29, 2008)

Im a big fan of cesar milan and i dont think he would ever be harsh to a dog and all of his techniques are very promising but as it says on the programe they should not be consulted without a profesional i only wish he could stop my doggy barking at every sound!.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

astro said:


> Hi Terri,
> 
> Is this book available to buy in the UK?


I bought it from Amazon at the beginning of the year, the pictures aren't of the best quality but the book is a good one.

Terri


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

LOL..you dont have to be a professional to strangle a dog! I could have done what he done in that video and got the same reaction..He is far from a professional in my eyes!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> i still would like someone who supports cesar to answer me why ALL the dogs on his show cower down in fear when he "shishess" them. What does he do to train them to react this way?
> 
> Because whatever command i give from a - z i dont get this fear reaction from my dogs.....


why does noone of the cesar supporters answer my questions?  :idea: 
The ones i asked in the past (nina  ) are being ignored too


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> i still would like someone who supports cesar to answer me why ALL the dogs on his show cower down in fear when he "shishess" them. What does he do to train them to react this way?
> 
> Because whatever command i give from a - z i dont get this fear reaction from my dogs.....


The reason I will not answer these questions, is because everytime you put a view forward, there are a number of people who jump on them straight away! It was actually your post where you said something along the lines of "he should never be allowed to work with dogs again", that made me pull out of the thread. With this attitude, you are not interested in our replies, merely on slating the man and his methods. This is why I am not debating the subject.

The anti-CM people who are still debating will not accept (or seem to accept) that any of his methods are ok. Instead you insist on pulling out every negative article ever written about him. If people were more reasonable and said things like "I like this about him, but I don;t like that", then a proper debate could be held. But you cannot debate with a brick wall, which is what this debate feels like.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

> The anti-CM people who are still debating will not accept (or seem to accept) that any of his methods are ok. Instead you insist on pulling out every negative article ever written about him. If people were more reasonable and said things like "I like this about him, but I don;t like that", then a proper debate could be held. But you cannot debate with a brick wall, which is what this debate feels like.


Yes we pull out these articals to back up what we are saying...feel free to pull out supportive aritcles about him and we will read them...:idea:


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The reason I will not answer these questions, is because everytime you put a view forward, there are a number of people who jump on them straight away! It was actually your post where you said something along the lines of "he should never be allowed to work with dogs again", that made me pull out of the thread. With this attitude, you are not interested in our replies, merely on slating the man and his methods. This is why I am not debating the subject.
> 
> The anti-CM people who are still debating will not accept (or seem to accept) that any of his methods are ok. Instead you insist on pulling out every negative article ever written about him. If people were more reasonable and said things like "I like this about him, but I don;t like that", then a proper debate could be held. But you cannot debate with a brick wall, which is what this debate feels like.


I like his roller blade's.
sorry couldn't resist that one


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> I like his roller blade's.
> sorry couldn't resist that one


ha ha ha...Well i love his teeth!  very white no doubt he paid for them though ha!!

I like nothing about him that involves the care and training of animals! 

Also does he charge for "his service"  If so does any one know how much! :idea:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Yes we pull out these articals to back up what we are saying...feel free to pull out supportive aritcles about him and we will read them...:idea:


Oblada pulled out a supportive article and the authenticity was questioned! There really is no point as there are some very anti CM supporters on here. I suppose we need to be researching everybody's background who has ever said anything good about him! x


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> The reason I will not answer these questions, is because everytime you put a view forward, there are a number of people who jump on them straight away! It was actually your post where you said something along the lines of "he should never be allowed to work with dogs again", that made me pull out of the thread. With this attitude, you are not interested in our replies, merely on slating the man and his methods. This is why I am not debating the subject.
> 
> The anti-CM people who are still debating will not accept (or seem to accept) that any of his methods are ok. Instead you insist on pulling out every negative article ever written about him. If people were more reasonable and said things like "I like this about him, but I don;t like that", then a proper debate could be held. But you cannot debate with a brick wall, which is what this debate feels like.


ok i like that he blames the owners and that he understands that dogs need exercise which some of the people arent giving them. i just dont like any of his methods or half the logic behind them.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Oblada pulled out a supportive article and the authenticity was questioned! There really is no point as there are some very anti CM supporters on here. I suppose we need to be researching everybody's background who has ever said anything good about him! x


Yes i saw that article but couldnt find who had writen it..please could you tell me who it was.!? Because for all we know it could have been his wife!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> The reason I will not answer these questions, is because everytime you put a view forward, there are a number of people who jump on them straight away! It was actually your post where you said something along the lines of "he should never be allowed to work with dogs again", that made me pull out of the thread. With this attitude, you are not interested in our replies, merely on slating the man and his methods. This is why I am not debating the subject.
> 
> The anti-CM people who are still debating will not accept (or seem to accept) that any of his methods are ok. Instead you insist on pulling out every negative article ever written about him. If people were more reasonable and said things like "I like this about him, but I don;t like that", then a proper debate could be held. But you cannot debate with a brick wall, which is what this debate feels like.


but my questions are not based on how someone views cesar or his teqchinices (i hate this world, cant spell it right lol ).

They are simply based on the hows .... how does someone achieve dogs being fearfull (doesnt matter who) of a "shish" noise and if people think that he uses training equipment (check chain for example) the correct way....

... simple questions really


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> ok i like that he blames the owners and that he understands that dogs need exercise which some of the people arent giving them. i just dont like any of his methods or half the logic behind them.


Any of his methods? You don't agree with being the "leader" of your pack? How can you not? What do you suggest? you are at the bottom, with the dog at the top?


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> why does noone of the cesar supporters answer my questions?  :idea:
> The ones i asked in the past (nina  ) are being ignored too


i have asked questons too which havnt been answed. when i studied philosophy we debated a lot and a debate is supposed to have two sides of people putting their point across, by answering questions about your beliefs you are supposed to reinforce you beliefs, because your fighting for them, either the CM likers dont believe enough to fight meaning the cm haters have won or they do not understand enough to to put a valid point across and answer questions.

so come on all you CM lovers, fight for him!!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> i have asked questons too which havnt been answed. when i studied philosophy we debated a lot and a debate is supposed to have two sides of people putting their point across, by answering questions about your beliefs you are supposed to reinforce you beliefs, because your fighting for them, either the CM likers dont believe enough to fight meaning the cm haters have won or they do not understand enough to to put a valid point across and answer questions.
> 
> so come on all you CM lovers, fight for him!!!!


for some reason they dont mind to comment on anything else and continue the debate....weird 

I agree with u there....


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

I asked questions about 30 odd pages back...LOL i just took it no one answered them because they could'nt!


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## Captain.Charisma (May 24, 2009)

I havent read all of the thread, but i think Cesar Milan is a great dog handler. I dont think hes cruel, hes just firm.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Any of his methods? You don't agree with being the "leader" of your pack? How can you not? What do you suggest? you are at the bottom, with the dog at the top?


i dont believe in the pack theory because wild dogs are mostly solitary, living occasionally in family groups. my dogs are a part of my family, there is no real hierarchy, at least not the way he thinks there is. i do not believe in comparing dog with wolves when there is such a large difference between the two just as i would not study human behaviour by studying primates.


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Natik said:


> but my questions are not based on how someone views cesar or his teqchinices (i hate this world, cant spell it right lol ).


Its techniques...............


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Any of his methods? You don't agree with being the "leader" of your pack? How can you not? What do you suggest? you are at the bottom, with the dog at the top?


U are already the leader by providing food and rules.... u dont need to be physically forcefull to get ur points through to a dog.

Usually its the weakest in the dog pack who show signs of aggression ... especially when taken out of the pack.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

animallover111 said:


> Its techniques...............


thank u... i will copy it and paste it in the future comments :smilewinkgrin:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> but my questions are not based on how someone views cesar or his teqchinices (i hate this world, cant spell it right lol ).
> 
> They are simply based on the hows .... how does someone achieve dogs being fearfull (doesnt matter who) of a "shish" noise and if people think that he uses training equipment (check chain for example) the correct way....
> 
> ... simple questions really


I use the shish noise. It is a noise I make that communicates to my dogs that I am not happy, or to interupt their train of though. It is not what you say, but how you deliver it. You may use a "no", some may say "oi". We all do our own thing. Why the hang up it?

You look at that clip and I believe you honestly see a dog being strung up. My way of looking at this clip is:
* CM was called in to deal with a dominant dog who had been aggrssive to that other dog
* Whilst walking him, the husky began to focus on the other dog. CM then tapped him on his hind quarters, to distract him (something I do all the time with my dogs). If he had not broken his concentration then no doubt the husky would have begun lunging and trying to get to him.
* The husky then turned to CM and began getting aggressive. He is a dominant dog who is not used to being corrected (hence CM being there in the first place)
* He had no choice but to stop the dog attacking him. Backing down to a dominant dog is not an option. 
* The alpha role is to calm the dog and to maintain your pack status.

Would I do this to my dog and allow this to be done by someone else - absolutely!

You are aware of the problems I have had with aggression. Using his methods have allowed me to cope and solve (still work to do) the greek dogs problems.

Am I cruel? Are my dogs badly treated? According to some people on here - yes. Which is why there is no point in me putting my views forward.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I use the shish noise. It is a noise I make that communicates to my dogs that I am not happy, or to interupt their train of though. It is not what you say, but how you deliver it. You may use a "no", some may say "oi". We all do our own thing. Why the hang up it?
> 
> You look at that clip and I believe you honestly see a dog being strung up. My way of looking at this clip is:
> * CM was called in to deal with a dominant dog who had been aggrssive to that other dog
> ...


u qouted my post but u havent answered my questions


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> wild dogs are mostly solitary


Can you back up that statement with examples?
I would be very interested.
I was always of the belief that most wild dogs live in packs


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Can you back up that statement with examples?
> I would be very interested.
> I was always of the belief that most wild dogs live in packs


raymond coppinger and his wife have studied dogs and other canids for over 40 years. they have discovered that wild dogs/village dogs are more closley physically and therefore more likely mentally to the first dogs then to wolves, like a link in the evolutionary chain, although they live closley and are relativly social it is very rare for them to live in groups other then mother and young. if times are hard they have been known to band together for short periods of time but not perminantly and they rarely fight amongst themselves, unless desperate.

they are more like dogs then wolves as they are not afraid to get close to people and will scavenge out of bins and even occasionally beg, some can be tamed into living in buildings, although the areas where these dogs live are not usualyy places where dogs are accepted as pets, more like we regard pigeons, pest but they clean up the mess, litter and food left on the floor, people dont bother with them either way, these dogs are not ferral as they never have been kept as pets before as it is not permited/accepted. therefore they must be wild and the link between dogs and wolves.

ray has done many studies into different types and breeds of dogs too and his book, although heavy going as it is written for scholars and professionals rather then the general public, is very interesting.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks Cassie, that is very interesting.

From the little I looked at it just now it seems that food is the key. When there is plenty food they split up and when food is not easy to find they band together as it is easier to hunt cooperatively, is that right?

I suppose African wild dogs, would have difficulty finding food too.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Thanks Cassie, that is very interesting.
> 
> From the little I looked at it just now it seems that food is the key. When there is plenty food they split up and when food is not easy to find they band together as it is easier to hunt cooperatively, is that right?
> 
> I suppose African wild dogs, would have difficulty finding food too.


yes food is the most important thing for most dogs so when food is short they will band together, cover more ground and share whatever they find.


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## princesspinky (Jul 28, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> LOL..you dont have to be a professional to strangle a dog! I could have done what he done in that video and got the same reaction..He is far from a professional in my eyes!


I think you a seriously exaggerating here. He has not strangled the dog, the dog would have been dead if he had strangled him! and also he would have got done for animal cruelty. ut:
Also if he is not a proffesional then why has he saved how many dogs from being put to sleep . When most normal dog trainers would have put to sleep most of the cases Cesar has saved

ut:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> i have asked questons too which havnt been answed. when i studied philosophy we debated a lot and a debate is supposed to have two sides of people putting their point across, by answering questions about your beliefs you are supposed to reinforce you beliefs, because your fighting for them, either the CM likers dont believe enough to fight meaning the cm haters have won or they do not understand enough to to put a valid point across and answer questions.
> 
> so come on all you CM lovers, fight for him!!!!


I will answer that;

CM "Lovers" dont live by defining themselves according to CM and do not spend their days figuring ways to convince others.
I dont need to anwer questions about my "beliefs" to reinforce them - I like CM I like his ways of seeing things and the little I have applied with my dog has worked wonders - I apply his philosophy and I like it (to be honest I dont need to apply much more than the basic "philosophy" as my dog is not a troubled dog, I have had him since puppyhood..)

I agree with Goodvic - Pro-CM seem to be labelled as cruel so whats the point of debating!
When serious arguments are presented they are often ignored and things are turned to jokes...
Some of the comments on "shish" made me wonder if some people had actually even seen a full episode ever and I dont want to start a debate for which such an amount of "background work" has to be done (lazy I know )

To answer your question Natik about dogs cowering in fear (I think its you)- I dont think they cower in fear when he "shish" them..see thats the problem of some of those question, they are kind of biased and rhetorical at the first place...We dont see the same things. I see do understanding him, respecting him as the one in charge, not fearful of him...but then again I am not there in person to judge properly.

The check chain, the E-collars etc are not CM techniques at all - Ive seen him use the E-collar once only and it was a last resort thing (someone said snake dont give second chance..well huge tractor rarely do too!). Otherwise he uses the "equipment" of the owner in most cases. I cant say whether he uses the equipment correctly, I would not know how to use it myself and I am not there in person to judge... But I look at the result, the dog and the happy owner 

xx


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

princesspinky said:


> I think you a seriously exaggerating here. He has not strangled the dog, the dog would have been dead if he had strangled him! and also he would have got done for animal cruelty. ut:
> Also if he is not a proffesional then why has he saved how many dogs from being put to sleep . When most normal dog trainers would have put to sleep most of the cases Cesar has saved
> 
> ut:


i dont know any trainer (and i know quite a lot) who would ever recomend having a dog pts, they would always recomend training first (not using CMs methods btw) and only offer having the dog pts as an option if the owner did not want to go through with any of the other suggestions!!!! trainers who see a dog and say no it needs to be pts imo are not trainers and are just too afraid to admit they cant deal with a problem, if they cant deal with it they should just say so and help find another trainer/behaviourist for their customers, thats what i would do!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> To answer your question Natik about dogs cowering in fear (I think its you)- I dont think they cower in fear when he "shish" them..see thats the problem of some of those question, they are kind of biased and rhetorical at the first place...


its not just me, i had also a discussion about this with several dog behaviorists and trainers (with years and years experience with aggressive dogs) and all of them say his ways are dangerous and the dogs act in fear....so no, its not just me 

I wonder if i should tell them to stick their experience somewhere else and ignore when someone shows up to training or a session with a massive prong collar on its dog as hey, thats whats the owner is using 

Do u agree with the average person using a prong collar?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> U are already the leader by providing food and rules.... u dont need to be physically forcefull to get ur points through to a dog.
> 
> Usually its the weakest in the dog pack who show signs of aggression ... especially when taken out of the pack.


See I dont think CM shows aggression to the dogs, or violence. But calm leadership. Physical contact may be required but not violence.
Usually very little is needed to assert leadership with a dog, just energy as CM would say it (and control of food and rules is part of it in a way), but some dogs may require more; CM says himself truly dominant dogs are a rarity and they need a bit more "assertive" behaviour to know their place.

To me, wolves or not wolves, there is always a need for some sort of hierarchy in a social group, animals, humans or mixed  and I want to be sure my dog knows his place and mine. Not by being forceful or physical but by behaving as a leader. Thats the way I see CM's ideas.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> See I dont think CM shows aggression to the dogs, or violence. But calm leadership. Physical contact may be required but not violence.
> Usually very little is needed to assert leadership with a dog, just energy as CM would say it (and control of food and rules is part of it in a way), but some dogs may require more; CM says himself truly dominant dogs are a rarity and they need a bit more "assertive" behaviour to know their place.
> 
> To me, wolves or not wolves, there is always a need for some sort of hierarchy in a social group, animals, humans or mixed  and I want to be sure my dog knows his place and mine. Not by being forceful or physical but by behaving as a leader. Thats the way I see CM's ideas.


imitating a bite is aggression and pinning a dog down is aggression in the dog world hanging a dog so it paws dont touch the ground is human aggression.
Im sure i also seen him walking on all 4 on a episode like a dog growling..... whats that?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Oblada said:


> The check chain, the E-collars etc are not CM techniques at all - Ive seen him use the E-collar once only and it was a last resort thing (someone said snake dont give second chance..well huge tractor rarely do too!). Otherwise he uses the "equipment" of the owner in most cases. I cant say whether he uses the equipment correctly, I would not know how to use it myself and I am not there in person to judge... But I look at the result, the dog and the happy owner
> 
> xx


I have seen CM use an E-collar twice,once to correct resource guarding of the food bowl,in my opinion totally the wrong way to go about resource guarding and the other was on a GSD,who then bit it's owners arm.
I did not see happy dogs,a happy dog would not direct it's aggression at it's owner.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

princesspinky said:


> I think you a seriously exaggerating here. He has not strangled the dog, the dog would have been dead if he had strangled him! and also he would have got done for animal cruelty. ut:
> Also if he is not a proffesional then why has he saved how many dogs from being put to sleep . When most normal dog trainers would have put to sleep most of the cases Cesar has saved
> 
> ut:


Yep he did strangle the dog i saw it with my own eyes..have you watched the clip on the orinigal post!?

He should be done for animal cruelty and i hope he is! 

Saved so many dogs!??? It might have looked like that in the 30 or so minutes you watched the show but what happens after the show that no one hears about!!! you dont know i dont know but i have a fair idea what happens the next time the dogs lashs out due to the the methods CM uses!!!....


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> its not just me, i had also a discussion about this with several dog behaviorists and trainers (with years and years experience with aggressive dogs) and all of them say his ways are dangerous and the dogs act in fear....so no, its not just me
> 
> I wonder if i should tell them to stick their experience somewhere else and ignore when someone shows up to training or a session with a massive prong collar on its dog as hey, thats whats the owner is using
> 
> Do u agree with the average person using a prong collar?


Some trainers say fear and some disagree.
I dont see the guy in person so its a bit difficult to judge. And I will admit to not being a real expert on the question. I suppose my view on that could be more "influenced" if I was to watch CM in person next to an expert showing me signs of fear etc...
In the article I put the view was that CM was very fluid and calm in his body language and the dogs were certainly not afraid of him.

I dont particularly agree with average owners using anything that could potentially be dangerous but I dont think CM encourages any of that, he simply uses whatever the owners are comfortable using or are already using unless wholly inappropriate...thats hes way of doing things, infringing as little as possible on the owners ways all the while trying to influence him with his philosophy...


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Yep he did strangle the dog i saw it with my own eyes..have you watched the clip on the orinigal post!?
> .


You saw it with your own eyes on a little screen, not in person...if really there was a problem and the dog had been inflicted pain I am pretty sure the owners would do/have done something about it... I sure would have.
I trust in a lot of cases happy owners/clients mean happy dogs...unless I am proven wrong but numerous lawsuits brought against the guy (so far as we've mentioned only 1 lawsuit we know about and CM was not the one dealing with the dog but his staff...and nothing was proven anyway)


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> U are already the leader by providing food and rules.... u dont need to be physically forcefull to get ur points through to a dog.
> 
> Usually its the weakest in the dog pack who show signs of aggression ... especially when taken out of the pack.


Physically forceful.... There comes the interpretation again. I believe that a "touch" to distract a dog, or an imitation "bite" is not a problem. Again I use it myself. The alpha role is to calm the dog, but at the same time it can only be done by a clear leader. If people who do not have this control over their dog and attempt it, then yes it is dangerous. It should not be done as a punishment and this is where the interpretation comes in.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> imitating a bite is aggression and pinning a dog down is aggression in the dog world hanging a dog so it paws dont touch the ground is human aggression.
> Im sure i also seen him walking on all 4 on a episode like a dog growling..... whats that?


I dont agree - aggression means hostility, provocation, attack.
A bitch correcting her pups is not aggressive.
A mother disciplining her child is not necessarily aggressive.
I dont see CM losing his cool. He is always calm and composed, he does not evoke hostility to me.

The bite imitation is discipline not aggression, it does not have to be done with violence and lost temper but with a calm state of mind directed at the goal (getting the dog to know his place, understanding his position and relaxing).
I dont think he "hangs" dogs...so...

xx


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> Some trainers say fear and some disagree.
> I dont see the guy in person so its a bit difficult to judge. And I will admit to not being a real expert on the question. I suppose my view on that could be more "influenced" if I was to watch CM in person next to an expert showing me signs of fear etc...
> In the article I put the view was that CM was very fluid and calm in his body language and the dogs were certainly not afraid of him.
> 
> I dont particularly agree with average owners using anything that could potentially be dangerous but I dont think CM encourages any of that, he simply uses whatever the owners are comfortable using or are already using unless wholly inappropriate...thats hes way of doing things, infringing as little as possible on the owners ways all the while trying to influence him with his philosophy...


 a good behaviorist/trainer always will insists of using safe methods and behaviorists/trainer who cant interprete fear in dogs they should start a new profession. Its not about agreeing or disagreeing that the dog is showing fear, its about knowing that the dog is showing fear.

im sure most owners continue using those methods after he left them as he certainly doesnt show them how to handle the dogs safely .....


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

CM turns unhappy, barking, frightened, aggressive dogs into dogs their owners can live with,
Many of these dogs would have been put down as the owners were at the end of their tether.

Like Oblada, I like his thinking.
The farm dog and the tractor would have resulted in a mangled if not dead dog, many farm dogs do suffer that fate, the E-collar stopped that.
It was not to get the dog off the sofa or to stop him grabbing food or some other trivial reason, it was, I consider a life or death situation and the dog came to no harm.

Other aggressive/dominant dogs as in the video have been tazored or put immediately on death row for doing a lot less than that dog did. The dog in question is fine he owes his life to some training. He was one scary dog and CM did very well to try and help him. Other "kinder" trainers may have given up and immediately suggested PTS, off camera of course.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Oblada said:


> You saw it with your own eyes on a little screen, not in person...if really there was a problem and the dog had been inflicted pain I am pretty sure the owners would do/have done something about it... I sure would have.I trust in a lot of cases happy owners/clients mean happy dogs...unless I am proven wrong but numerous lawsuits brought against the guy (so far as we've mentioned only 1 lawsuit we know about and CM was not the one dealing with the dog but his staff...and nothing was proven anyway)


No i dont belive this..the owner's head has already been filled with crap most problerly before we even see what goes on...

I saw enought on the screen to make me dis like the guy more than i did before...

I saw the dog in complete fear..I saw the dog get strangled into submission..
i saw the dogs oxygen supply cut off...i saw the dogs tounge go blue..!!

Im afraid to say imo that is no way to treat a dog..i would have knocked the sh!t out of him or any other so called trainer for doing that to my dog...

I want my dogs to be trained with postive inforcement and to trust me..

I dont want them to be trained through fear and be scared of me!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Physically forceful.... There comes the interpretation again. I believe that a "touch" to distract a dog, or an imitation "bite" is not a problem. Again I use it myself. The alpha role is to calm the dog, but at the same time it can only be done by a clear leader. If people who do not have this control over their dog and attempt it, then yes it is dangerous. It should not be done as a punishment and this is where the interpretation comes in.


but the dog doesnt calm down.... it surrenders, it gives up, it shuts down but certainly it doesnt calm down....


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> but my questions are not based on how someone views cesar or his teqchinices (i hate this world, cant spell it right lol ).
> 
> They are simply based on the hows .... how does someone achieve dogs being fearfull (doesnt matter who) of a "shish" noise and if people think that he uses training equipment (check chain for example) the correct way....
> 
> ... simple questions really


I don;t think the dogs are scared, I think they are respectful. I watch every episode (when I am not working) and I do not see this "fear". A lot of the times there is such a lack of discipline from the owners that the dogs are taken by surprise!

As for using his equipment...... The only thing he actively recommends are the 35cent leads or for dogs who are a bit of a handful, the illusion coller. He only ever uses a choke when the owners already use it as he wants to provide consistancy. The e-coller I have only seen him use a few times and I have never felt it to be inappropriate.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

I saw one where he used an E-collar because the dog didnt like that cat!!!!ut: He also classed it as a "red zone case"..
The mans lost the plot


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I don;t think the dogs are scared, I think they are respectful. I watch every episode (when I am not working) and I do not see this "fear". A lot of the times there is such a lack of discipline from the owners that the dogs are taken by surprise!
> 
> As for using his equipment...... The only thing he actively recommends are the 35cent leads or for dogs who are a bit of a handful, the illusion coller. He only ever uses a choke when the owners already use it as he wants to provide consistancy. The e-coller I have only seen him use a few times and I have never felt it to be inappropriate.


so cowering down, ears down, tense body and tail underneath the bum...thats what u call respect?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I saw the dog in complete fear..I saw the dog get strangled into submission..
> i saw the dogs oxygen supply cut off...i saw the dogs tounge go blue..!!




Well you see that and others dont clearly, even some physically present.
I dont really see how you can see (sorry for the repetition) the dogs tongue turn blue on the clips... or their oxygen supply cut off..

Natik - obviously not everyone agree so maybe dog body language is not a fixed science yet...I certainly would hope any behaviourist would insist on working with CM and his dogs and seeing it with his own eyes before passing judgment on the body language..


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I saw one where he used an E-collar because the dog didnt like that cat!!!!ut:


and the cat didnt like the dog. .. i was surprised they didnt put an ecollar on that cat either ut:


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> *No i dont belive this..the owner's head has already been filled with crap most problerly before we even see what goes on...*
> I saw enought on the screen to make me dis like the guy more than i did before...
> 
> I saw the dog in complete fear..I saw the dog get strangled into submission..
> ...


totally agree, its not hard to brain wash people. people have been using CMs methods for years and its amazing how many people will accept if if you can make them believe its best for the dog no matter how much they didnt like it. how do you think so many people go off and fight for wars, they are all brainwashed into thinking they are doing whats best for their country.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> a good behaviorist/trainer always will insists of using safe methods and behaviorists/trainer who cant interprete fear in dogs they should start a new profession. Its not about agreeing or disagreeing that the dog is showing fear, its about knowing that the dog is showing fear.
> 
> im sure most owners continue using those methods after he left them as he certainly doesnt show them how to handle the dogs safely .....


But you cannot possibly say that the dog is definitely scared, any more than we can say it is not. It is an opinion because WE are not there in person.

Furthermore, you do not know what happens when the camera stop rolling or at the consultation. How do you know what advice him and his team give? Just because it is not shown on tele.......


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> Well you see that and others dont clearly, even some physically present.
> I dont really see how you can see (sorry for the repetition) the dogs tongue turn blue on the clips... or their oxygen supply cut off..
> 
> Natik - obviously not everyone agree so maybe dog body language is not a fixed science yet...I certainly would hope any behaviourist would insist on working with CM and his dogs and seeing it with his own eyes before passing judgment on the body language..


well.. it might not be science but i for sure know what it means when a dog puts its tail underneath its bum and tenses up.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> so cowering down, ears down, tense body and tail underneath the bum...thats what u call respect?


Probably surprise at being confronted with someone who actually wants to be in charge...maybe some fear because the dog has had so little boundary this is new territory... 
Lowering of the body and "small" body posture can be respect yes - to tell the other you're not a threat.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Well you see that and others dont clearly, even some physically present.
> I dont really see how you can see (sorry for the repetition) the dogs tongue turn blue on the clips... or their oxygen supply cut off..
> 
> Natik - obviously not everyone agree so maybe dog body language is not a fixed science yet...I certainly would hope any behaviourist would insist on working with CM and his dogs and seeing it with his own eyes before passing judgment on the body language..


May be its worth watching the clip again and just as the dog is laid on the floor struggling to breath you will see the toung is also blue..You can clearly see the dog stuggling to breath...surely you can


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> But you cannot possibly say that the dog is definitely scared, any more than we can say it is not. It is an opinion because WE are not there in person.
> 
> Furthermore, you do not know what happens when the camera stop rolling or at the consultation. How do you know what advice him and his team give? Just because it is not shown on tele.......


oh, so he keeps the good advice away from being published for the public


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> but the dog doesnt calm down.... it surrenders, it gives up, it shuts down but certainly it doesnt calm down....


Of course it calms down. Then it gets up and walks away quite happily. I don;t see it curling up into a ball or running off to hide.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I saw one where he used an E-collar because the dog didnt like that cat!!!!ut: He also classed it as a "red zone case"..
> The mans lost the plot


I cannot comment on that because I did not see it. Are you saying that he went straight into using an e-coller before trying anything else?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> totally agree, its not hard to brain wash people. people have been using CMs methods for years and its amazing how many people will accept if if you can make them believe its best for the dog no matter how much they didnt like it. how do you think so many people go off and fight for wars, they are all brainwashed into thinking they are doing whats best for their country.


Alright then we are brainwashed! Everyone who works with and likes CM has been brainwashed, his satisfied customers have been brainwashed and the unhappy ones with whom brainwashing was not successful are too afraid to speak up.
Maybe the anti side has been brainwashed by other trainers jealous of his celebrity status


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> so cowering down, ears down, tense body and tail underneath the bum...thats what u call respect?


I cannot remember seeing a dog reacting that way. Even if it does, he doesn;t always get it right. I guess some dogs are very timid.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> Probably surprise at being confronted with someone who actually wants to be in charge...maybe some fear because the dog has had so little boundary this is new territory...
> Lowering of the body and "small" body posture can be respect yes - to tell the other you're not a threat.


ur absolutely wrong.....

i met a dog last time off lead and it showed respect to my dogs by laying down calmy waiting for them to move on.... it never showed any fear.

A dog only shows fear when there is a reason to be fearfull!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Of course it calms down. Then it gets up and walks away quite happily. I don;t see it curling up into a ball or running off to hide.


Agreed 100%!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Of course it calms down. Then it gets up and walks away quite happily. I don;t see it curling up into a ball or running off to hide.


I wouldnt blimmin dare move if i was that dog.. through fear the same would happen all over again!! Its not wonder if just lies there and walks off doing as its told....Its all down to fear..how can you look at them dogs eyes and say that is alright!!! I felt sick watching that video i felt very un-easy watching it...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Of course it calms down. Then it gets up and walks away quite happily. I don;t see it curling up into a ball or running off to hide.


it does when approuched by cesar again....


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> ur absolutely wrong.....
> 
> i met a dog last time off lead and it showed respect to my dogs by laying down calmy waiting for them to move on.... it never showed any fear.
> 
> A dog only shows fear when there is a reason to be fearfull!!!!


Laying down = small body posture = like I said respect.
There is more than one way to do things.

Alright then I am wrong...its an easy way out of a debate you asked for


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> oh, so he keeps the good advice away from being published for the public


It is a tv show, primarily to make money and provide entertainment. Your average viewer is unlikely to be interested in the "after care advice". The show has a following of milliions and most of them are not as interested as we are.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> ur absolutely wrong.....
> 
> i met a dog last time off lead and it showed respect to my dogs by laying down calmy waiting for them to move on.... it never showed any fear.
> 
> A dog only shows fear when there is a reason to be fearfull!!!!


yep..i agree!!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Of course it calms down. Then it gets up and walks away quite happily. I don;t see it curling up into a ball or running off to hide.


thats because its relieved to be let go, its just seen its life flash before its eyes,

now obviously i have never been a dog but if someone pinned me down on my back, and i cant move no matter how much i struggled, well id think i was about to die!!! and be so petrifed i wouldnt be able to think clearly. id only stop struggling when i gave up the will to live or was completly exhausted. i would be so far from calm it would be virtually none existant!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> Laying down = small body posture = like I said respect.
> There is more than one way to do things.
> 
> Alright then I am wrong...its an easy way out of a debate you asked for


laying down ...not curling down tensed up ears down tail underneath bum ....there is a difference u know 

Dogs usually have all the same way of showing fear....


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Oblada said:


> Alright then we are brainwashed! Everyone who works with and likes CM has been brainwashed, his satisfied customers have been brainwashed and the unhappy ones with whom brainwashing was not successful are too afraid to speak up.
> Maybe the anti side has been brainwashed by other trainers jealous of his celebrity status


i never said that im just saying its not hard to convince people something is right even if it isnt


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> May be its worth watching the clip again and just as the dog is laid on the floor struggling to breath you will see the toung is also blue..You can clearly see the dog stuggling to breath...surely you can


Struggling to breath does not mean oxygen supply cut off.
An intense mental and physical "challenge" can lead you to struggle to breath.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> It is a tv show, primarily to make money and provide entertainment. Your average viewer is unlikely to be interested in the "after care advice". The show has a following of milliions and most of them are not as interested as we are.


Thats exactly it and thats all CM cares about imo..


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Struggling to breath does not mean oxygen supply cut off.
> An intense mental and physical "challenge" can lead you to struggle to breath.


The blue tounge???

Being stung up by a lead can also make you struggle to breath witch is exactly what happened in the clip..Did you read the article from the vet about this clip that some one posted?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> It is a tv show, primarily to make money and provide entertainment. Your average viewer is unlikely to be interested in the "after care advice". The show has a following of milliions and most of them are not as interested as we are.


i cant see any entertainment in managing dogs with problems and maybe thats where it all goes wrong as there are those who actually enjoy it...

And all the made up silly titles are just to catch more of the viewers....


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> laying down ...not curling down tensed up ears down tail underneath bum ....there is a difference u know
> 
> Dogs usually have all the same way of showing fear....


tensed body posture can be a lot of things - associated with small body posture it could mean;
respect + stress induced by a new situation (someone being in charge) and yes maybe fear at what this newleader is up to as the dog is not used to that.
It does not mean CM's techniques are cruel.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

If you look at CM on that clip he is struggling for breath and he is in fact looking as shocked and scared as I have ever seen him.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> The blue tounge???
> 
> Being stung up by a lead can also make you struggle to breath witch is exactly what happened in the clip..Did you read the article from the vet about this clip that some one posted?


I did not see the blue tongue - cant be bothered to re watch the clip to be honest, i have seen enough to know what I think.
And no I dont remember precisely the article of the vet - but if that article was based on seeing the clip only and looking at the number of vets who know very little about dog behaviour I am not sure it would be enough to convince me


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

image of a fearful dog

http://www.moderndogmagazine.com/files/images/6fearful_worried.jpg

thats what i see when i watch these shows, i also see a lot of calming signals which ceaser ignores!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

You guys could definitely write some great headlines!

"Dog being strangled to death"
"CM fans - brainwashed!"
I wonder why it hasn't been written? Because it is not true!

You have to admit that the media are vultures when it comes to slating somebody. Why is he still so successful? Why have ex customers not come out of the wood work with their stories of how he treated their dog. The tabloids pay a fortune for these sorts of stories.

Why are we allowing him to show his TV show over here if he is so cruel? Because only a few people think so. 

Bottom line is, he is huge competition to so called "dog trainers". He has it spot on with dogs. It is not about "training" a dog. It is about understanding their psychology. It is jealously from the competition.

He came from no where. An illegal immigrant who jumped the border and followed his passion for dogs. His talent and talent alone has made him what he is today. The reason why others have not made it, because they do not have a natural talent. 

The green eyed monster will keep rearing it's ugly head and we will see more of this, because his success will keep growing. 

Way to go Cesar! :001_tt2:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> tensed body posture can be a lot of things - associated with small body posture it could mean;
> respect + stress induced by a new situation (someone being in charge) and yes maybe fear at what this newleader is up to as the dog is not used to that.
> It does not mean CM's techniques are cruel.


how come when my dogs are approuched by trainers with confidence they dont show this fear or tensed up behaviour but pay attention to the person by stopping whatever they were doing, waggling their tail and waiting for a command? And thats by a stranger in a unusuall situation......

would u say they are showing no respect?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I did not see the blue tongue - cant be bothered to re watch the clip to be honest, i have seen enough to know what I think.
> And no I dont remember precisely the article of the vet - but if that article was based on seeing the clip only and looking at the number of vets who know very little about dog behaviour I am not sure it would be enough to convince me


Well i clearly see a blue tounge if you choose not to watch it again then thats fine!
If you also choose not to read the article thats fine..
But im still to see a posative article from some one that knows what there talking about..Regarding CM's methods


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Well i clearly see a blue tounge if you choose not to watch it again then thats fine!
> If you also choose not to read the article thats fine..
> But im still to see a posative article from some one that knows what there talking about..Regarding CM's methods


I can't be bothered to be honest with you. His results and success speak for himself


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> how come when my dogs are approuched by trainers with confidence they dont show this fear or tensed up behaviour but pay attention to the person by stopping whatever they were doing, waggling their tail and waiting for a command? And thats by a stranger in a unusuall situation......
> 
> would u say they are showing no respect?


so every dog that approaches CM is fearful. Is it not generalising a bit?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I can't be bothered to be honest with you. His results and success speak for himself


But do they!!!????
But how do you know that like people have said WE are not there...WE do not see what happens before and after the clip is showed on the TV!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> how come when my dogs are approuched by trainers with confidence they dont show this fear or tensed up behaviour but pay attention to the person by stopping whatever they were doing, waggling their tail and waiting for a command? And thats by a stranger in a unusuall situation......
> 
> would u say they are showing no respect?


Natik to be honest its a bit difficult to be discussing theoretical dogs, dog body postures etc like that - if we were together in front of dogs behaving the way you mention maybe I could give you a clearer idea of my view.

What CM does is to show leadership - which the owner has been desperately lacking - they are often quite extreme cases - and the difference between CM and their owner's behaviour must be quite a shock to the dog. Some of those dogs will certainly not stop to pay attention to anyone unless it is put to them very clearly who is in charge.
Your trainers may be dealing with different dogs, for different reasons, with different goals.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> You guys could definitely write some great headlines!
> 
> "Dog being strangled to death"
> "CM fans - brainwashed!"
> ...


i have actually read several stories where the dogs he has successfully rehabilitated have later been pts for the same/worse behaviour. will try to find one now.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> You guys could definitely write some great headlines!
> 
> "Dog being strangled to death"
> "CM fans - brainwashed!"
> ...


because those customers (sadly) are those type of people who dont even get it that a dog has to be walked, they think a dog excists to look nice laying beside the fireplace or on the sofa.... i doubt they understand anything about dog behaviour and admire him because he actually manages to get the dog out of the house...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Well i clearly see a blue tounge if you choose not to watch it again then thats fine!
> If you also choose not to read the article thats fine..
> But im still to see a posative article from some one that knows what there talking about..Regarding CM's methods


Even if his tongue is blue, he had no choice but to restrain it like that. Forgetting about how he got into the situation in the first place. What would you have done, ONCE the dog had turned on you?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> because those customers (sadly) are those type of people who dont even get it that a dog has to be walked, they think a dog excists to look nice laying beside the fireplace or on the sofa.... i doubt they understand anything about dog behaviour and admire him because he actually manages to get the dog out of the house...


How can you speculate on this though? You make a lot of assumptions. Maybe the fact is, he has rehabilitated those dogs? God forbid he may have done!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Bottom line for me
Happy customers - balanced dogs - philosophy works brilliantly for me and makes sense - I need no more  until proven wrong 

Gotta go now! Nice talking to you guys


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Even if his tongue is blue, he had no choice but to restrain it like that. Forgetting about how he got into the situation in the first place. What would you have done, ONCE the dog had turned on you?


If i had an aggressive dog it would have been muzzled in the first place!..so i would never be in that situation!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> i have actually read several stories where the dogs he has successfully rehabilitated have later been pts for the same/worse behaviour. will try to find one now.


Then they were not rehabilitated in the first place. he can only do so much. If the owner does not maintain their pack status and stick to the rules, then yes the dog will act up.

I am sure you will find another article.......


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Even if his tongue is blue, he had no choice but to restrain it like that. Forgetting about how he got into the situation in the first place. What would you have done, ONCE the dog had turned on you?


that dog only reacted to him... if i would have done his MISTAKE then i would cower down with my arms protecting my face and im sure the dog would stop its rage as it wouldnt identify me as the source of pain and torture.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> If i had an aggressive dog it would have been muzzled in the first place!..so i would never be in that situation!


that as well!!!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> If i had an aggressive dog it would have been muzzled in the first place!..so i would never be in that situation!


If I remember rightly the dog was not aggressive, it was dominant and badly behaved.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> How can you speculate on this though? You make a lot of assumptions. Maybe the fact is, he has rehabilitated those dogs? God forbid he may have done!


i dont speculate.... i have seen more than enough of shows where the owners thought because the dog is a small size it doesnt need to see the outside world...


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> But do they!!!????
> But how do you know that????? like people have said WE are not there...WE do not see what happens before and after the clip is showed on the TV!


Another one of my questions ignored...gosh people ignore me alot hey ha ha


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> that dog only reacted to him... if i would have done his MISTAKE then i would cower down with my arms protecting my face and im sure the dog would stop its rage as it wouldnt identify me as the source of pain and torture.


Then this would make you a target and you would never be able to help that dog, because he is top dog.

I hope you are never put in that position because you cannot chance a big dog like that backing down.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> If I remember rightly the dog was not aggressive, it was dominant and badly behaved.


dogs dont behave badly lol


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> i dont speculate.... i have seen more than enough of shows where the owners thought because the dog is a small size it doesnt need to see the outside world...


And that is the basis for your assumptions, because owners think little dogs don;t need walking..... What about the owners of big dogs?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Then this would make you a target and you would never be able to help that dog, because he is top dog.
> 
> I hope you are never put in that position because you cannot chance a big dog like that backing down.


i would have never attempted to "rehabilitate" that dog in this matter anyway!!!! As im not into creating time bombs and puppets on strings....


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Another one of my questions ignored...gosh people ignore me alot hey ha ha


What is the question?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> dogs dont behave badly lol


It is a figure of speech :001_tt2:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> And that is the basis for your assumptions, because owners think little dogs don;t need walking..... What about the owners of big dogs?


well, more than enough which say they have no time or simply cant be a##sed.... i though u watch his show... dont u watch the beginning when he asks them about excersise???


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> It is a figure of speech :001_tt2:


of course :001_tt2:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> i would have never attempted to "rehabilitate" that dog in this matter anyway!!!! As im not into creating time bombs and puppets on strings....


He only tapped it on its hind quarters to DISTRACT it. I do it with my dogs and I would do the same with somebody elses, if I needed to distract it. Just because you wouldn;t do it, it doesn't make it wrong. There is more than one way to skin a cat!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> What is the question?


Here it is!



goodvic2 said:


> I can't be bothered to be honest with you. His results and success speak for himself


But do they!!!????
But how do you know that??? like people have said WE are not there...WE do not see what happens before and after the clip is showed on the TV!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> well, more than enough which say they have no time or simply cant be a##sed.... i though u watch his show... dont u watch the beginning when he asks them about excersise???


Yes I do and a lot of them are lazy. But this is not the only reason why they cannot continue with his work


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

found this!!! so he does refuse cases!!!! why?? cant he solve them?? did he recomend them pts??

Phoenix Dog Training Guru Fixes Problems That Cesar Millan, Dog Whisperer Fails At; TLC K9 Academy Director Bill Glatzel Issues the $5000.00 Charity Dog Training Challenge : Dog Service Network, LLC


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> He only tapped it on its hind quarters to DISTRACT it. I do it with my dogs and I would do the same with somebody elses, if I needed to distract it. Just because you wouldn;t do it, it doesn't make it wrong. There is more than one way to skin a cat!


yeah, but firstly he put that dog into a situation surrounded by strange people, tv crew with probably big microfons balancing over their heads and several dogs... not very clever ut:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Here it is!
> 
> But do they!!!????
> But how do you know that??? like people have said WE are not there...WE do not see what happens before and after the clip is showed on the TV!


He has 30-40 members of his pack. He brings in troubled dogs to his pack all the time. The day that there are problems within the pack is the day that I will agree he is not getting the results.

The day I see lots of people coming forward (not just the odd one) saying that his methods have done irrepariable (wrong spelling) damage, I will say his methods do not work.

The day that his methods do not work within my own pack, I will agree his mtehods do not work.

Until then, I will remain a loyal fan ! x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> found this!!! so he does refuse cases!!!! why?? cant he solve them?? did he recomend them pts??
> 
> Phoenix Dog Training Guru Fixes Problems That Cesar Millan, Dog Whisperer Fails At; TLC K9 Academy Director Bill Glatzel Issues the $5000.00 Charity Dog Training Challenge : Dog Service Network, LLC


It says "we get a COUPLE of CM cases every year". He deals with hundreds! Did you know he is also starting to give work to other behaviourist because he cannot cope with the volume of cases?

You cannot speculate as to why he doesn't take certain cases. Only CM knows that himself.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> yeah, but firstly he put that dog into a situation surrounded by strange people, tv crew with probably big microfons balancing over their heads and several dogs... not very clever ut:


That is what he does everytime. It takes camera and crew to make a film


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

*


goodvic2 said:



He has 30-40 members of his pack. He brings in troubled dogs to his pack all the time. The day that there are problems within the pack is the day that I will agree he is not getting the results.

Click to expand...

*


goodvic2 said:


> *The day that his methods do not work within my own pack, I will agree his mtehods do not work.*


*
How does he give all his dogs the one on one care EVERY dog need.!?We see what about 5 of his 30/40 dogs so know we cant say they are all well balanced trained dogs!*

*But the program clearly states you do not try these your self at home with out a professional!!  *

*Untill i can see him doing some good to these dogs i will remail a CM hater!*


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> It says "we get a COUPLE of CM cases every year". He deals with hundreds! Did you know he is also starting to give work to other behaviourist because he cannot cope with the volume of cases?
> 
> You cannot speculate as to why he doesn't take certain cases. Only CM knows that himself.


yes it might only say a couple but this is just one other behaviourst, how many others might end up with rejected Cm cases every year, im sure these are not the only two behaviourists in the country


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> That is what he does everytime. It takes camera and crew to make a film


for the sake of who?......


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Does anyone want a cup of tea? or some chicken in white wine


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> for the sake of who?......


To make money. That is what behaviourist do. I don;t see any of them work for free!

Anyway, I will be getting divorced at this rate. One hour on this bloody post, I said I was only checking email. he will begin to think I have a secret boyfriend.

Have a good day x x :wink5:


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> Does anyone want a cup of tea? or some chicken in white wine


I'll have a cuppa please, white no sugar


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Badger's Mum said:


> Does anyone want a cup of tea? or some chicken in white wine


Yes please.. 

Yes i would like to know why he feels the need to have his "work"(if you can call it that) put on TV!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan Sued For Dog Injury: Page 2 - Dog Pictures - Premium Dog Food

i didnt know this before!!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> To make money. That is what behaviourist do. I don;t see any of them work for free!
> 
> Anyway, I will be getting divorced at this rate. One hour on this bloody post, I said I was only checking email. he will begin to think I have a secret boyfriend.
> 
> Have a good day x x :wink5:


First and for most for a seriouse behaviourist that dogs comes first NOT money!!!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Does anyone want a cup of tea? or some chicken in white wine


that would be good, saves me from cooking!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> First and for most for a seriouse behaviourist that dogs comes first NOT money!!!


exactly! I know behaviourist they take so little they just manage to pay the petrol to get to that dog to help!!!! As thats their main concern, the dog and the persons safety and not the checke to pay for a new set of teeth :smilewinkgrin:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Just because he cannot "mend" all dogs doesn't mean he is a poor trainer.
That is ridiculous.

People who are good at their work, do get offers of television, he is charismatic, he has a interesting back story, he has a pack of dogs, he roller skates, he has a life philosophy, he "mends" dogs and is good at his work, he is good at teaching and puts his view across in a no nonsense manner and thus makes good television. Full stop.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> exactly! I know behaviourist they take so little they just manage to pay the petrol to get to that dog to help!!!! As thats their main concern, the dog and the persons safety and not the checke to pay for a new set of teeth :smilewinkgrin:


same here. i dont make anything, ok im not working at the moment
because i have other projects but still when i get back into it i wont be making much, people do these jobs because they have a passion if they are in it for the money well i personally wouldnt trust them


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> exactly! I know behaviourist they take so little they just manage to pay the petrol to get to that dog to help!!!! As thats their main concern, the dog and the persons safety and not the checke to pay for a new set of teeth :smilewinkgrin:


I know what i need to do then to have teeth like him!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I know what i need to do then to have teeth like him!


Richard Hammond springs to mind :001_tt2:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Richard Hammond springs to mind :001_tt2:


I dont know who that is.:blushing:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I dont know who that is.:blushing:


Have you never seen Top Gear? :yikes:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Have you never seen Top Gear? :yikes:


No i have never seen Top Gear! :001_tt2: But hey CM's teeth beat his in that pic!! 
see everyone i can be nice about CM..credit where credit is due and all that!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> No i have never seen Top Gear! :001_tt2: But hey CM's teeth beat his in that pic!!
> see everyone i can be nice about CM..credit where credit is due and all that!


It's the best British equivalent I can come up with :001_tt2:


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

sequeena said:


> It's the best British equivalent I can come up with :001_tt2:


simon cowell???


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> simon cowell???


Hahha when I think of him I think high waisted trousers :001_tt2:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> simon cowell???


ha ha ha...Yep He defo has better teeth than CM plus simon cowell is honest and straight up he makes me laugh!!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> ha ha ha...Yep He defo has better teeth than CM plus simon cowell is honest and straight up he makes me laugh!!


yup. i dont think id like to meet him though, he can be a bit rude


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> He has 30-40 members of his pack. He brings in troubled dogs to his pack all the time. The day that there are problems within the pack is the day that I will agree he is not getting the results.
> 
> The day I see lots of people coming forward (not just the odd one) saying that his methods have done irrepariable (wrong spelling) damage, I will say his methods do not work.
> 
> ...


Same here!! :thumbup:



DevilDogz said:


> *
> 
> How does he give all his dogs the one on one care EVERY dog need.!?We see what about 5 of his 30/40 dogs so know we cant say they are all well balanced trained dogs!
> 
> [*


*

My view is that a dog that belongs to a pack, spends all day with a balanced pack of dogs, goes every day hikking for 4 hours, plays balls, jump into a swimming pool when its too hot...cant be that unhappy 
I dont think every dog needs one to one human contact and care every minute of the day - some are happier in a group of 5 - 10 - 20
Anyway at CM's center some dogs (quite a lot I think) are only temporary resident - until they are better balanced and find the perfect home.

I am quite happy this thread has moved along relatively nicely.
I will note however that it is the "anti-side" (dont like to say things this way) who seem to get pretty worked up at times and when things get too much turn things into jokes...lol nothing wrong with that  but it was just my way of replying to the "remark" about the lack of reaction of the "pro-side"..

Anyway its gone well I think, better than I expected TBH :thumbup1:*


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> There again I dissagree with you. The "wild Pack " is built in to all dogs , granted it may be stronger in some dogs . That is why even though I trust my dogs with small children I would never leave them alone with one.
> 
> Yes i do believe there is a 'pack order' but between *dogs* not humans and dogs!!
> 
> ...


What i mean by he knows his place is that he is trained enough not to push his bounderies. For example: If he wants a treat say, he knows he has to be calm and not bounce around like a loon. If he wants to go out for the door he does so in a calm way and not barge past.
It really is simple enough with reward based training to get what you desire out of your dog!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Ay but you have got to have a laugh havent you cant be seriouse all the time...I can accept that we all have different views and i can understand those that do support him as i did up till not that long ago.


I do belive every dog needs some sort of one on one..But yes i agree they do not need human contact every mintue of everyday.
Im not sure what dogs are CM and what dogs are only there for a while i was just generally intrested on how he copes with the needs of all them dogs as well as the others he deals with..

I think its been a good debate and some very intresting views..But a debate i have nothing futhur to add too


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Oblada pulled out a supportive article and the authenticity was questioned! There really is no point as there are some very anti CM supporters on here. I suppose we need to be researching everybody's background who has ever said anything good about him! x


Why is it so so easy to find the bad not extremely hard to find any good??? ut:


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Why is it so so easy to find the bad not extremely hard to find any good??? ut:


Ive seen tuns of good things related to CM


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Why is it so so easy to find the bad not extremely hard to find any good??? ut:


Because the people who are looking for the articles are only looking for the bad. The CM supporters are not bothering to look for articles. I for one are not even going to try to look x


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Because the people who are looking for the articles are only looking for the bad. The CM supporters are not bothering to look for articles. I for one are not even going to try to look x


Don't agree with you but blobed you for standing by what you believe


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Oblada said:


> You saw it with your own eyes on a little screen, not in person...if really there was a problem and the dog had been inflicted pain I am pretty sure the owners would do/have done something about it... I sure would have.
> I trust in a lot of cases happy owners/clients mean happy dogs...unless I am proven wrong but numerous lawsuits brought against the guy (so far as we've mentioned only 1 lawsuit we know about and CM was not the one dealing with the dog but his staff...and nothing was proven anyway)


The camera never lies :001_tt2:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> It is a tv show, primarily to make money and provide entertainment. Your average viewer is unlikely to be interested in the "after care advice". The show has a following of milliions and most of them are not as interested as we are.


I have to say everyone i have spoken to would love to see what had happened say 6 months down the line!!

At the end of the programme they should have the re-visited part...........or is there something to hide in a lot of them? ut:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> You guys could definitely write some great headlines!
> 
> "Dog being strangled to death"
> "CM fans - brainwashed!"
> ...


The 'customers' might have to sign a disclaimer???

Declaring and signing that will not speak bad about him should his methods fail and the dog either being PTS or CM, just giving up.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> The 'customers' might have to sign a disclaimer???
> 
> Declaring and signing that will not speak bad about him should his methods fail and the dog either being PTS or CM, just giving up.


i too think there must be some sort of contract signed before making a show as in america they sue u for everything and anything .....


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## astro (Jan 20, 2009)

I found this on the National Geographic website, which I thought would be interesting to everyone. Cesar Milan himself addresses a lot of the criticism raised in this thread:

Dog Whisperer to Critics: My Techniques Are "Instinctual"


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I have to say everyone i have spoken to would love to see what had happened say 6 months down the line!!
> 
> At the end of the programme they should have the re-visited part...........or is there something to hide in a lot of them? ut:


At the end of each programme you do see the owners and dog and they do tell you how hey are getting on .

Do not remember how long down the line it is but some say things are great others say things are coming on niceley.

His 10 yr reunion show had all the dogs he had helped and I did not see any of them miss behave They were all lined up toghther as CM walked past and spoke to the dogs and their owners it was a great show !


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> At the end of each programme you do see the owners and dog and they do tell you how hey are getting on .
> 
> Do not remember how long down the line it is but some say things are great others say things are coming on niceley.
> 
> His 10 yr reunion show had all the dogs he had helped and I did not see any of them miss behave They were all lined up toghther as CM walked past and spoke to the dogs and their owners it was a great show !


All of them  

6 Months later would be better!!


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> image of a fearful dog
> 
> http://www.moderndogmagazine.com/files/images/6fearful_worried.jpg
> 
> thats what i see when i watch these shows, i also see a lot of calming signals which ceaser ignores!!


Some of my regular customers do this when they come in to get groomed ! 

dog that is not humans 

i must have something in common with CM !!!

NO honestly I dont "choke" the when I groom them and they do stand for me and end up dozing as they soon relax and enjoy it


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> All of them
> 
> 6 Months later would be better!!


yes most of them and some he would have rehabilitated more than 6 months before.

Did you not see the programme? It was great to see and CM was very emotional as he had become very attached to some of the dogs he had worked with.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> At the end of each programme you do see the owners and dog and they do tell you how hey are getting on .
> 
> Do not remember how long down the line it is but some say things are great others say things are coming on niceley.
> 
> His 10 yr reunion show had all the dogs he had helped and I did not see any of them miss behave They were all lined up toghther as CM walked past and spoke to the dogs and their owners it was a great show !


but that's because he "hung" them up before this show and they were so scared already, because he is such a terrible man!

I'm sure we'll hear this from somebody! :wink5:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> The 'customers' might have to sign a disclaimer???
> 
> Declaring and signing that will not speak bad about him should his methods fail and the dog either being PTS or CM, just giving up.


since when does that stop anybody talking? More speculation :wink5:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

astro said:


> I found this on the National Geographic website, which I thought would be interesting to everyone. Cesar Milan himself addresses a lot of the criticism raised in this thread:
> 
> Dog Whisperer to Critics: My Techniques Are "Instinctual"


Thank you for sharing that. Don't suppose you got the name, address, qualifications, height, dob, car they drive etc of the person who wrote it do you???? :001_tt2:

No doubt the credentials will be asked for!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

This thread is soooo funny. No one is every going to agree and some people are positively bigoted in their opinions. I have only watched odd bits of it, I dont like the bloke or the way the dogs react to him. I have nothing against the actual methods that are shown on the whole, nothing against being hard with a dog but I do find it odd that as most people on here seem to pussy foot round their dogs and find any discipline wrong that there are so many people approving his horrendously hard methods.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Blitz said:


> This thread is soooo funny. No one is every going to agree and some people are positively bigoted in their opinions. I have only watched odd bits of it, I dont like the bloke or the way the dogs react to him. I have nothing against the actual methods that are shown on the whole, nothing against being hard with a dog but I do find it odd that as most people on here seem to pussy foot round their dogs and find any discipline wrong that there are so many people approving his horrendously hard methods.


Ahh, so I am not the only one who sees some comments as being totally bigoted  I doubt it will change though


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## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Hey guys
was reading a mag last night and Guess what Alan Carr is a fan of Caesar:thumbup1:

Do you think it's because CM has nice teeth  LOL LOL

See we can have a laugh on this debate


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> Hey guys
> was reading a mag last night and Guess what Alan Carr is a fan of Caesar:thumbup1:
> 
> Do you think it's because CM has nice teeth  LOL LOL
> ...


I love Alan carr :001_wub: lol!!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

lilacbabe said:


> Hey guys
> was reading a mag last night and Guess what Alan Carr is a fan of Caesar:thumbup1:
> 
> Do you think it's because CM has nice teeth  LOL LOL
> ...


I read that mag too and that it was quite a coincidence :yesnod:


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

That is exactly my point. Dont you think that there would be an website with someone who Cesar helped featuring how he harm these dogs after over 100 epsiodes and six years?

I understand you have never seen really scared dogs. 
How wonderful that you have only been with good dogs who are easily teachable, rather then dogs like these that were so badm that owners would abandon to rescue or euthanize them.

Really scared dogs, pull back struggling to get away, the cower to the ground and cry or whine. When you watch the 100th episode, you see previously bad dogs walking on loose leashes without attacking other dogs or peoples, standing next to others on loose leashes with their owners watching the fun and not the dogs. You see dogs wagging their tails, ears up, head up, following their owner's commands without struggle or effort.

You are also mistaken in your assessment. Cesar did NOT show up to meet with the owners before the show cameras were turned on. Everyone assembled and met with eachother BEFORE Cesar arrived, his arrival was filmed from the time he got out of the vehical. So he didnt even see them from the last time he helped them months, or even years earlier.



goodvic2 said:


> but that's because he "hung" them up before this show and they were so scared already, because he is such a terrible man!
> 
> I'm sure we'll hear this from somebody! :wink5:


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

i think every dog forum in the world has this debate raging

the important thing, in my opinion is the relationship you form with your dog and, in my opinion
where the cesar programmes fall down is that you only see a snapshot

my advice would be go and learn all the techniques out there are choose what works for YOU....and I mean what works, not just what you want to work

after what i've learnt i would probably train my next pup or resuce differently 

a very expereinced and famous dog man once said to me "it takes 18 months to train a dog and 18 years to train a handler"........one thing is for certain is that cesar provides no quick fix


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## CJAnderson (Jul 10, 2008)

Outstandingly said, nickmcmeachem!

Cesar is the first to say "ALL ways are good that do NOT harm the dog", and that "one wants to use the LEAST energetic method possible". For the first 45 years of my life I only had "easy, good dogs" before I decided to take on other dogs that most people couldnt, (or wouldnt) help!

Even I have my line in the sand - the really big dogs who can over power 55 year college teacher me down to about the 60 pound level, for instance.

Also what I know, is that part of the agreement the participants of the show sign, (like having a health check for the dogs, having tried local professional sources for help, etc) includes the clear agreement that the changes that Cesar makes in behaviors will NOT be permenant unless the owners emulate the actions after Cesar is gone.

Cesar's team is clear to any last chance applicate - there IS no quick fix, there will be a life time of reinforcement of the behavior changes made!

Many people never think about how hard it must be for the producers who chose the dogs for the show, based on this willingness for human cange and follow through, knowing that many dogs not chosen, go right to the pound or vet for euthanizing, because the humans dont care enough to do something different, or that it is too much change, long term.

He is SO careful to teach the HUMANS how to replicate Cesar's behavior - scaling his skills down to their level. Just last night in a new epsiode, he showed a father and son how to keep their high energy dog from nipping at the boy in play. He showed a whole business family how to work with an agressive five legged chihuahua to be able to have visitors pet this very special dog, as a lesson in learning how to look beyond physical impairments to see the soul inside. What a give that lesson gives to help humans see beyond other's disfigurments human OR dog!

There is one story about a dog - Cotton, in the Dog Whisperer Episode Guide, where the owner was not committed enough to continue the human behavior changes that Cesar successfully made . She has acknolwedged the changes were made, and she has acknowledged her role in not continuing her agreement to follow through.

So her solution is to have the teeth filed down so that when she does bite, it doesnt cause harm. (A procedure costing around $1800. I dont judge that choice either).

AS far as I have come, yet have I so much more to learn. What I HAVE learned so far from Cesar, has given me both knowledge and skill to not only rehab the amost 40 dogs, rom being euthanized, but find forever homes with people who were willing to conitnue to changes made!

I watch other shows, and use those techniques where they will work as well!:idea:
<snip>

the important thing, in my opinion is the relationship you form with your dog and, in my opinion, cesar's techniques are a tool to use to form that relationship.

where the cesar programmes fall down is that you only see a snapshot, not the long term relationship between dog and handler.

sometimes cesar's techniques are appropriate, other times they are not

my advice would be go and learn all the techniques out there are choose what works for YOU....and I mean what works, not just what you want to work...some people will not use harsh corrections when approproiate and end up with their dog harming someone, others will not use positive reward as they think it doesn't work or is too soft

after what i've learnt i would probably train my next pup or resuce differently but i wouldn't hesitate to use any technique that works for both myself and dog

a very expereinced and famous dog man once said to me "it takes 18 months to train a dog and 18 years to train a handler"........one thing is for certain is that cesar provides no quick fix


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CJAnderson said:


> Outstandingly said, nickmcmeachem!
> 
> Cesar is the first to say "ALL ways are good that do NOT harm the dog", and that "one wants to use the LEAST energetic method possible". For the first 45 years of my life I only had "easy, good dogs" before I decided to take on other dogs that most people couldnt, (or wouldnt) help!
> 
> ...


Great post!

It is interesting to hear from you folks in the USA because you get to hear things that we don't, like the back stage stuff. Also you may know of people who have gone on to the show.

The trouble in the UK is that people only get to see the episodes and so become a big cynical.

x


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## dogz lover (Sep 26, 2009)

Cesar Milan is an entertainer, he knows very little about dogs and how to train them, dogs on his show display signs of stress and mentally shut down, his methods are dangerous and ineffective and his theories and beliefs are out-dated 

I would urge anybody who thinks they may try his methods to find themselves a qualified trainer who does know how to train dogs, a good starting point is the Association of Pet Dog Trainers 

The show is highly edited and many methods he uses may result in prosecution if they are used in the UK 

Choke chains cause lots of injuries to dogs and are not effective 

the alpha roll is dangerous and ineffective and the theories behind this practice have been exposed as incorrect


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## r_neupert (Jun 22, 2009)

You're bringing back all the old corkers tonight eh!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Apologies if this has already been posted....

The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2009)

hahahahahaha!!!! not this again!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> hahahahahaha!!!! not this again!


Exactly how i feel!


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## madferrit* (Sep 17, 2009)

wow what a debate!!! its took me a while to read all the posts and im really surprised at the level of feelings towards Cesar on either side!! I honestly didnt realise he provoked such strong feelings in people , i've watched The Dog Whisperer quite a bit and never thought CM's techniques were barbaric or violent but i suppose i can understand why some of you dont like them.
we all seem to have very strong opinions on how we like to teach our dogs so its no suprise we cant always see eye to eye!
A good thing that has arised from this debate is that you all have given me alternatives to teching my dog to be a good doggy citizen, theres no strict rules or just one way to teach her and i can take what i like and ignore the rest- so thank you all for posting, right now i'm using clicker training and its working a treat but very early days yet! (lucky me eh?)


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

dogz lover said:


> he knows very little about dogs and how to train them,


Neither do you, so how can you pass judgement?


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

funny this should arise again. i watched a film a few days ago, cant remember what it was called, but there was this woman dog trainer using CMs methods, even the shush!!! it was about 20 years old!!!


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Thought he had run of into the sunset with Janice! did they have a tiff?


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Who brought this thread back up? *sigh*


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Who brought this thread back up? *sigh*


Someone who has the hots for Cesar no doubt!! they should have gone to specsavers!!!!!!!!!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Double trouble said:


> Someone who has the hots for Cesar no doubt!! they should have gone to specsavers!!!!!!!!!


It might be to later even for that.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> It might be to later even for that.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


hahahahaha!!!


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> hahahahaha!!!


What you laffing at Columbo!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2009)

Double trouble said:


> What you laffing at Columbo!


Nothing honest! :001_tt2: :001_tt2:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Double trouble said:


> Thought he had run of into the sunset with Janice! did they have a tiff?


*lol i wish. good job my internet has allowed me to get back on for a now or i would have missed that remark.*


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