# Should I be letting my dog off lead?



## Ambers Mum (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi,

I have a 6 month old boxer bitch, she is very energetic so I like to let her off lead when I take her out for a walk, I have fields near my house.
She runs around but follows where I go as we walk. However if she sees another person or dog she runs off to them to play, she ignores me and will not come back.
This has happened twice, so what I do is let her off lead but if I see someone in distance approaching I get her back on lead.
Should I be letting her off the lead if she hasn't learned to come back to me with distractions around. 
How do people teach recall? Do they not let their dogs off lead at all untill they know they will always come back?
My only worry with this is that she wont burn off her energy!

Thanks


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

Hi, I've been having a hard time with my dog's recall - he's 8 months old, and very keen on other dogs, and much like yours, he'll stick close throughout a walk, but if he spots another dog approaching, he'll be off to investigate and it's been a challenge trying to get his recall working once he's made contact.

I had a trainer work with me and her advice was to use a long line, let the line trail behind the dog, and periodically call the dog to you and reward with play (or a treat - my dog prefers tug games when we're out)

When another dog approaches, take up the end of the long line and let the dogs sniff each other, then urge your dog to leave the dog and follow you and immediately treat or play tug when he does. The idea being to narrow the 'window' where the dog is switching off to you, and try to make coming back to you fun.

I have to say, I really didn't get on with this method at all - walks were really unpleasant, I'd be hauled along by the dog at times when he wanted to run to another dog, or else people tend to keep their dogs at a distance when they see your dog is on a long line.

Here's what I've been doing the last few weeks, and it's been working really well for me: I stopped walking my dog so much on the beach and walk him instead where there are lots of little hills and tussocks with grass. Whenever he gets too far ahead, I'll duck down out of view and wait for him to notice he's 'lost' me. I'll then blow on my whistle (which I've been using at home to call him in from the garden), and he comes straight to me. I've been trying to do this _before_ he runs to other dogs, so he'll associate coming to the whistle with impending play time with dogs. It's been going pretty well, and I've found the key is to tap into his need to keep me in sight. When he hears the whistle and turns and can't see me, he'll leave off what he's doing to find me. As your dog is also young and wanting to stick near you (when there're no distractions around), I think you can tap into this too.

Of course, he still has his moments of deafness (when he's started a big game with another dog for example), but I've noticed a big improvement using this method.

Hope that helps, different dogs respond to different things, so if you can persevere with the long line that might work better for you - I personally found it nightmarish & much prefer the hide & whistle method.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Ambers Mum said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a 6 month old boxer bitch, she is very energetic so I like to let her off lead when I take her out for a walk, I have fields near my house.
> She runs around but follows where I go as we walk. However if she sees another person or dog she runs off to them to play, she ignores me and will not come back.
> ...


6mths or so is the age when dogs often do this, even ones that came before can start to be more interested in other things. They can also come into season or be getting ready for it in the next month or too, and hormones and things deffinately doesnt help the situation. If they learn to run off and avoid you now, you can have an ongoing battle.

I would keep her on either a long line or a flexi giant extendable (The ones with the wide webbing all the way through) while you are practicing recall training. If she has already become deaf to being called, then sometimes training with a whistle can help.

Start indoors, with the whistle and some treats, high value ones like cheese,chicken sausages and hot dogs are usually good, Keep these for recall only. Just walk around, and every time you whistle treat her immediately
she should follow you. After you have had a few sessions indoors, try it when she is in the gaarden sniffing about, stand by the back door and whistle and treat when she comes. Then try it from inside the house. If all that goes ok then try outside, on the long line or extendable. Start where there are few distractions and if and as she gets better, do it where there are more and build up.

Keep whistling her back periodically throughout the walk, After treating send her away again with go play. Sometimes when you get her back, throw a ball a couple of times, or play tug before sending her to go play again. This should teach her being called and coming isnt end of walk, and also keeps her interest and focus as she doesnt know what she is going to get a game or treat or both for coming back.

Never run after her to catch her, they get wise to it and think its a game of catch me if you can. Try whistling and running in the other direction instead,
it then becomes a chase me game, You can do this anyway as a game and reward. You can also hide behind things and whistle, and when she comes to find you treat. If there is two of you any time, you can both have treats or balls or tug toys, calling her backwards and forwards between you to keep her focus and recall.

Never just take her somewhere, let her off and dont recall her until its time for lead and home. They get wise to that too, and are more likely to run off.
You can even try, calling her back, practicing a few minutes walking with you and then sending her away again to go play in between.

Hope this will help.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

We call Holly back numerous times of a walk. Half just for recall practice and treats, half for back on lead, so that way she doesn't know which reason she's coming back, just that she gets a treat


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## Chihuahua Clothes Mikey (Mar 28, 2011)

I'll ofter a little different perspective here. Personally, I'm not ok with my dogs not coming when called. I really believe in the pack leadership mentality, and if my dog runs off in front of me on his own will, then that is very clearly a sign that he is not following me and sees himself as the leader in our pack of me and him. In nature, you would _never_ see a dog running off in front of his leader--he would get his ass kicked for that. That's the instinctive rule that dogs have between the leader and the followers, and I tap into that. Every dog belongs to a pack, and every pack has a leader. And that leader is me. I condition my dogs to stick by my side, regardless of what is going on around us. It's never ok for them to get distracted out of that "migrating" mode where we're traveling together on a walk.

That's the perspective I live by. It's not one I see many other owners living, but it works well for me. Hope that helps in some way!


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## sunshine80 (Jan 25, 2010)

I suppose it depends alot on how busy an area you walk your dog in. Sonny has unrealiable recall around people and other dogs so if I see someone coming then he gets called back and put on the lead. I still let him off lead when there is no one else about though and he can run about as he pleases as long as he comes back when called.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

My dog follows, even if he's ahead, aside or behind; I can recall him. Obedience is nothing to do with Pack Leader stuff but conditionaing, consistency, bonding & play and rewards based training. What I did was ensure plenty of play with pups & dogs when he was young, and have him refocus on me to calm. I have him closer when we pass on leash dogs, we don't know and he stays out of trouble.

At puppy stage, when he would rush up to ppl and to greet dogs in a group that met regularly, then I would avoid recalling him, until I thought he would come back. If the situation wasn't safe (had to watch out for joggers etc who might get him chasing them), then I'd have him on long leash, with extended training line. So recall got solid before he teethed and started any teenage stage. I worked hard on having him learn to ignore things that he liked to chase, and soon I could tell he wasn't trying to shoot off after them, so he was off leash more and more of the time.

Just kept working hard on it, making sure it was reinforced with play, praise and also occasionally food rewards.

From what you are saying, probably meeting more dogs & people, will make the strangers less interesting, and she'll be easier to control. That's not meant to contradict Sled Dog Hotel, kaisa264 & Pineapples suggestions.

I don't like calling the dog back, to just put them on the lead. Far better to have a quck game of tug and then do it


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

I think at this age they are like teenagers and when do they do as they are told just keep at it and you will succeed. Even if you will feel a bit down at times somehow you will hit on the one thing your dog will come back for.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> I'll ofter a little different perspective here. Personally, I'm not ok with my dogs not coming when called. I really believe in the pack leadership mentality, and if my dog runs off in front of me on his own will, then that is very clearly a sign that he is not following me and sees himself as the leader in our pack of me and him. In nature, you would _never_ see a dog running off in front of his leader--he would get his ass kicked for that. That's the instinctive rule that dogs have between the leader and the followers, and I tap into that. Every dog belongs to a pack, and every pack has a leader. And that leader is me. I condition my dogs to stick by my side, regardless of what is going on around us. It's never ok for them to get distracted out of that "migrating" mode where we're traveling together on a walk.
> 
> That's the perspective I live by. It's not one I see many other owners living, but it works well for me. Hope that helps in some way!


Cesar? J Fennell?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> ...if my dog runs off in front of me on his own will, then that is very clearly
> a sign that he is not following me and sees himself as the leader in our pack of me and him. In nature, you would
> _never_ see a dog running off in front of his leader--he would get his ass kicked...
> That's the instinctive rule that dogs have between the leader and the followers, and I tap into that.
> Every dog belongs to a pack, and every pack has a leader. And that leader is me.


:lol: dogs don't form 'packs'; the *pair-bond* is the foundation of any pack, and dogs are not monogamous. 
* male dogs don't co-rear their pups 
* male dogs don't feed the bitch when she is denning 
* packs of dogs don't co-operatively rear a single litter


Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> It's never ok for them to get distracted out of that "migrating" mode where we're traveling together on a walk.


dogs don't *migrate*, either - they are territorial & stay in a general area, often with a pretty 
regular schedule of scavenging here, get a drink there, nap in the shade around X time... 


Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> That's the perspective I live by.


at a guess, i'd say U have overdosed on the Dawg-Wrassler, who is not a scientifically accurate source.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Never had much of a problem really with any of mine and i have done exactly the same with them all, let them off lead the first time out so around 12 weeks and taught recall before that, what i have never done is put them on a lead when ive seen someone approaching as i think they quicky realise this and dont stay near as they know the lead will go on, ive always used distraction, luckily our regular walk which i tended to stick too till they got better i knew more or less all the dogs so knew if they did ignore me they wernt in any danger.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Tummel did this and i felt exactly the same, he's a lab X rhodesian ridgeback so it's extremely important for him to get enought exercise. He wouldn't ever come back if there was a distraction but one day i called his bluff and walked away...he followed me! Everytime we're now having an offlead walk off the farm and some walks on the farm(i put him onlead when i know theres a risk of him getting into livestock...i live on a cattle farm so it's for his own safety) i now completely ignore any distraction(including the farm collie who is dog aggressive), and any wrong turns Tummel may take and he actually does follow. I see it as him going "we're going this way now" and by refusing to follow him he gives in and follows me....i'm his source of food, affection, play and warmth so why would he choose to leave that?

Even now he has his bad days where he refuses to listen and come back....i solve this by turning around and heading home no matter how far away we are...even if it's just 10 feet from the gate i make it clear i will not leave the house if he isn't prepared to listen to me...then for any other walks that day it's strictly onlead as he has "days" rather than walks where he acts up :blink:

So anyway....try calling her bluff in an empty space and see what she does...if all goes well you can progress to having distractions around. Tummel will now run off to greet a dog, watch me walk past(i can now actually interact with dogs as well and still have him walk away with me) then follow me to carry on walking.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> dogs don't migrate, either - they are territorial & stay in a general area, often with a pretty
> regular schedule of scavenging here, get a drink there, nap in the shade around X time...


Oh, don't spoil it! I was quite enjoying the mental image of a majestic flock of Poodles swooping by, their yapping barely audible over the whirring of their little propeller tails.....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Oh, don't spoil it! I was quite enjoying the mental image of a majestic flock of Poodles swooping by,
> their yapping barely audible over the whirring of their little propeller tails.....


:lol: [narrator] _"the biannual migration of the Poodles of the Serengeti, filmed by National Geographic..." _


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

But do be fair!



> Location: Mexico, Canada, Thailand


If they head south for the winter, north for the summer then they may be a migrating pack. I don't know how the dogs would detour to Thailand though, beats me, may be they build rafts from sticks and old tug toys?


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## Chihuahua Clothes Mikey (Mar 28, 2011)

hey sorry Ambers Mum, I tried to help. Didn't mean to attract the haters into your discussion  For your sake and to be brutally clear, by "migrate", I mean "go somewhere"; and by "pack", I mean the common term we use to describe a _group _of dogs, haha. The jokers will be jokers.

Like I said, I know a lot of people get riled up over this advice, but speaking from years of experience working with many very difficult dogs at shelters all over the world, both as full time work and volunteering, and working with dogs in almost every way imaginable, I've become very strongly convinced that it's both faster and more effective to tap into the instinct that already exists in a dog, instead of installing an understanding of obedience commands in them. I've used both, but after testing out what I do now with dogs and giving it each my best, seeing how much more quicker it works and how consistently the dogs follow it, I don't see myself going back any time soon.

I hope you find a solution for this case with your dog! :001_smile:


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

No retractiion of the fallacy "In nature, you would never see a dog running off in front of his leader--he would get his ass kicked...". What makes your advice credible, if you play fast & loose on your assertions?

Why do you think that training a dog using positive-reinforcement isn't equally "tapping into the instinct that already exists"?

How many people, find untrained feral dogs behaviour eg) Wild Dingos or Indian Rubbish Dump dogs, a suitable model for a pet?

This is not about "Haters", your label, this was about what works well for us. I can assure you that the dogs I meet from shelters without obedience commands causes great inconvenience and difficulty for their loving owners. They find they do need to train them.

On "Migrate" Migration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you'll see that "Animal migration, the travelling of long distances in search of a new habitat " would be the generally accepted definition, and not "go somewhere".

If the DW does not care about accuracy, then what other advice is going to be wildly wrong?

Are you seriously implying that the solution to a recall problem of a young dog is


Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> I condition my dogs to stick by my side, regardless of what is going on around us. It's never ok for them to get distracted out of that "migrating" mode where we're traveling together on a walk.


So how would you suggest that is actually done? How are the play & socialisation needs of this dog to be fulfilled, when it is so conditioned, and how if you permit the dog to run around, does this conditioning mean it knows that you recall?

Dogs were bred to do jobs and many of those required speed running, without solid trained recall, your "never leave side" dog will not be a fit, healthy example but a stifled and frustrated creature without outlets.


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> I've become very strongly convinced that it's both faster and more effective to tap into the instinct that already exists in a dog, instead of installing an understanding of obedience commands in them. I've used both, but after testing out what I do now with dogs and giving it each my best, seeing how much more quicker it works and how consistently the dogs follow it, I don't see myself going back any time soon.


While I think that your ideas - almost word for word from the CM himself - are utter nonsense, I've don't doubt they work.

But, not because you are "tapping into the instinct" of the dog - more dogs are so adaptable they will almost put up with any old crap from us - as long as you keep feeding them.

It's proven that feral domestic dogs (we are not talking about wolves here) *will not* form packs. Dogs are social animals, yes - pack animals, no.

So recall has nothing to do with the "pack". Nor how much the dog loves you. Nor anything else. Its a skill you have to teach. Simple operant conditioning. The dog doesnt come back when you recall because you've not taught him to _in that situation_.

To the OP - you teach recall, like any other skill, firstly in an area where there are no distractions, from a short distance, and reward the dog (with something of value _to the dog_ - my dog will work for hot dog in the house - but food is of less value in the park - but tennis balls rule everywhere). Then add distance. Then add distractions (other people / a new area / other dogs) gradually (ie the dogs are far away / or the new area does have many interesting smells (like a tennis court)). If you end up in a situation where you know the dog will ignore the command - go and get them or use a long line.

Hope that helps.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> No retractiion of the fallacy "In nature, you would never see a dog running off in front of his leader--he would get his ass kicked...". What makes your advice credible, if you play fast & loose on your assertions?
> 
> Why do you think that training a dog using positive-reinforcement isn't equally "tapping into the instinct that already exists"?
> 
> ...


My springers will walk by our side, thats not to say they dont get the right exercise a springer would go crazy if all it did was walk by our sides but they will are able to do when needs must and as you never know when you are going to need this to happen is always a good idea to at least try and train this, i really cant understand tho why mine will/can do this but pull like trains when on the lead oh well thats springers for ya.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...I know a lot of people get riled up over [Cesar Millan's] advice, but speaking from years of experience
> working with many very difficult dogs at shelters all over the world, both as full time work & [volunteer], & working
> ...


since the instincts U refer to and count upon don't, in fact, exist -- the reason it works is because dogs are very plastic, 
and manage to cope with a lot of frank junk: a huge spectrum running the gamut from mostly-decent teaching with 
some bad stuff popping up, to mostly-mediocre with a lot of bad stuff, to appallingly bad with much harsh handling.

_commands_ AKA _*cues*_ are neither more nor less than a label for an action - i say X, U do Y - 
and cannot come into play until *after the dog knows the behavior:* there is no point in shouting, _*sit! Sit! SIT!...*_ 
when the dog has no bloody idea what the heck U want - teach the behavior, then label the action [add the cue]. 
i can *teach* dogs that i never touch in a shelter-run to come to the front & *sit* as a default, it's easy 
and requires no *"cue"* whatsoever - the person arriving at the gate or door *is the cue*.

re bad training, poor grasp of behavior science, etc -
the number of really-good teachers & trainers is growing, but there are plenty of *dawg-wrassler wannabes* 
as well as shock-the-dog/pup-into-compliance franchisees & barf-bluster or lisstner franchisees, around the world - 
by the time we add the classic-Koehler crowd & other *punish the dog into good behavior* drill-sargeants, 
there's a slew of misapprehension, misinformation & balderdash out there. 


Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> I've used both, but after testing out what I do now with dogs and
> giving it each my best, seeing how much more [quickly] it works & how consistently the dogs follow it,
> I don't see myself going back any time soon.


this myth that *real training takes a long time* is just that - teaching is fast & simple, if done well - 
any naive dog can learn at an incredible rate, given clear direction & being rewarded for right-behavior. 
it's about eliminating or reducing the odds of wrong-answers [management] & setting the dog up for success: 
*make the wrong answer difficult or impossible, make the right-answer easy or inevitable, and make 
the right-answer pay off... while wrong-answers give no rewards.*

good teaching of naive dogs or pups is quick, but needs practice to become habitual & fluent - if they are taught, 
and then the taught behavior is not practiced or the cue/behavior maintained, it will fade-away & die. 
so practice & maintenance are critical to retain learned behaviors, & not have them evaporate over time.

*behavior modification* takes longer simply because UNlearning means disassembling old habits, & then 
teaching the new desirable preferred-behavior, so it inevitably takes longer than teaching a naive dog or pup.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> i really cant understand tho why mine will/can do this but pull like trains when on the lead oh well thats springers for ya.


It's probably association, they learnt to pull or race each other on lead, and the tensions back encourages a heave forward, like the sled dog tendency. One advantage of switching from flat collar to harness with pullers is breaking association, even if the product is not designed to stop it.

My dog can walk at my side to at varying distances, or in a loose heel position  He also trots next to my cycle. But I do allow him to go on ahead, or jump on me on cue, without it undermining my control via trained commands. I am sure he knows he's a hell of a lot faster than me, so tends to go out on the flanks and ahead, when we round up Frisbees together 

He's tolerant of my physical handicaps bipedal and a slow coach compared to him. Though he now prefers if I go by cycle, rather than dawdle on foot.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> this myth that *real training takes a long time* is just that - teaching is fast & simple, if done well -
> any naive dog can learn at an incredible rate, given clear direction & being rewarded for right-behavio


Hear, hear!!! In my exerience the limitting factor is the number of trained behaviours you can proof with the dog at one time, not the dog's learnign capacity (though I'm used to BC's).

What I must add, is that good training is fun, for both owner and dog; the reasoni I described some of it as hard work, is the care of consistency and patience, because at times things don't go as you hope and then you need calm persistence to try the next day, and the next. A lot of the training I do, comes for free, as part of play and exercising the dog.

Often, people say their dog doesn't learn or stubborn, but I often see them learning things rather quickly if treated calmly and they're "profiting" by the experience.

Putting in the effort to train, is easier than religiously following hokum rules no matter how incovenient (eg) eat before your dog, tire them out with physical exercise) and it is a lot more fun, and done right the dogs love it!


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## Chihuahua Clothes Mikey (Mar 28, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> No retractiion of the fallacy "In nature, you would never see a dog running off in front of his leader--he would get his ass kicked...". What makes your advice credible, if you play fast & loose on your assertions?
> 
> Why do you think that training a dog using positive-reinforcement isn't equally "tapping into the instinct that already exists"?
> 
> ...


:001_smile: I'm not here to win arguments and this will be my last post in here because we're getting way off the mark here and I don't think this is helping the original poster. But I'll indulge this last time:

first, the dog never going in front of his leader when they're on a mission of some kind (like hunting for food, migrating to a new territory) isn't my advice, it's a mere observation.

Positive reinforcement and the whole motivation to move towards pleasure thing is an intuitive, universal that all animals seem to respond to, dogs included; but on a more specific dog-level, you have a dog's pack instinct. You can call it what you want, you can deny this if you like, but if you ever get a chance to see a pack of wild dogs yourself and how they operate, as you get to quite often when you live in Mexico or other less-developed countries, I think you're going to have a hard time denying that the pack dynamic doesn't exist and that there is one dog in that pack who is running the show and calling the shots.

As for the feral dogs, dingos, ...I don't know what you're talking about. The topic here is dogs, but if you were to put in the work to earn the respect of one of those, I'm willing to bet you could lead them too and have them as pets. It would take a lot of work, but people have done this with animals of every kind, even lions and other crazy, bizarre combinations of animals.

As for being haters, I don't mean to label anyone, but it certainly _feels _that way. It's not it what you're saying, more in _how _you're coming at this. But enough about that:

I agree about interacting with your dog in a calm, relaxed way, and making it fun. I agree with most of what's been said in here, and I'm suggesting there's more than one way to do things. And I'm not speaking in scientifically perfect terms here, for those reading these posts with a magnifying glass: just in the common language terms that a lot of dog owners will be familiar with, so don't waste time quoting Wikis for me, lol.

I use positive reinforcement when applicable, I use Cesar Millan advice in other situations, and the advice of other trainers at other times. To be great at something, you're going to have to use a collection of techniques an methods and apply the most effective in whatever situation you're faced with. Through a ton of varied experiences, you become sharp at identifying when one method will work better than others in particular situations.

To those who don't seem to like certain trainers like Mr. Millan who use physical touch as part of their communicating with the dog, I'm not sure why: these are _dogs_ we're talking about; they're pretty strong, and they communicate and dicipline each other via energy, body language, and yes: touch. I'm not a "fan" of his, but I find it hard to believe anyone who watches more than just a couple of his shows with an open mind could disagree with the guy's methods; he gets results, and his methods--the main one being simply being mindful of your energy and to work to embody a calm-assertive energy when around your dog--work very consistently.

I'm not here for a pages-long debate on the subject, I'm here to provide some practical suggestions from my experience--experience where I've actually used both in many different contexts over the past few years. Sorry if what I say bothers you; so be it. As the people of one of this planet's countries say, "unity in diversity (not in concensus)". Cheers.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Thank you for being so gracious to indulge us once again, very magnanimous of you.


Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> first, the dog never going in front of his leader when they're on a mission of some kind (like hunting for food, migrating to a new territory) isn't my advice, it's a mere observation


That is by observation not true. During cooperative predatory chase behaviour a younger subordinate dog that is faster, will head off on flank and go "ahead". I have experienced this myself many times whilst running, and also watched dogs guard their home. It's not the top dog that does the most running. The whole point of a pack, is that the fresher individuals harry during a pursuit, and the leader appears at a decisive moment, whilst tending to hang back avoiding injury before that point.

How do you explain that Working Sheep Dogs are not in open revolt and in defiance of the shepherds, the Border Collie may be 1/2 a mile in front of the handler, and even work out of sight independantly. Are these dogs in open revolt? How could they drive the sheep industry, if that were so?

Most people who observe WSD, notice an amazing biddability and cooperation, the shepherd and dogs act as a team.


> Positive reinforcement and the whole motivation to move towards pleasure thing is an intuitive, universal that all animals seem to respond to, dogs included;


No it's not intuitive, it's based on real solid science in the behavioural research. This is about efficient way to promote desirable behaviour, without risking the "fall out" of unwanted adverse side effects.


> if you ever get a chance to see a pack of wild dogs yourself and how they operate, as you get to quite often when you live in Mexico or other less-developed countries, I think you're going to have a hard time denying that the pack dynamic doesn't exist and that there is one dog in that pack who is running the show and calling the shots.


Have you not understood? Canis Familiaris unlike wolves do NOT when feral form packs which are family groups lead by pair bonded senior individuals. Domestic dogs form looser less cohesive short term groupings.


> I use positive reinforcement when applicable, I use Cesar Millan advice in other situations, and the advice of other trainers at other times. To be great at something, you're going to have to use a collection of techniques an methods and apply the most effective in whatever situation you're faced with.


That is great, but unfortunately you seem to have evaded the specific questions, to address the concerns raised by the "pack leader mentality" you advocated.


> I find it hard to believe anyone who watches more than just a couple of his shows with an open mind could disagree with the guy's methods; he gets results, and his methods--the main one being simply being mindful of your energy and to work to embody a calm-assertive energy when around your dog--work very consistently


The programs are upsetting if you understand the subject dog's body language, this is what distresses the people you call "Haters".

I watch them, basically because Cesar is amusing and seems to get bitten alot, I end up shaking my head at what goes on. It is no way something to emulate or copy, by any rational dog owner; dysfunctional dog handling makes better telly!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Chihuahua Clothes Mikey said:


> ...I find it hard to believe anyone who watches more than just a couple of his shows
> with an open mind could disagree with the guy's methods; he gets results, and his methods -- the main one... simply being
> mindful of your energy and to work to embody a calm-assertive energy when around your dog -- [works] very consistently.


when i began watching the Dawg-Wrassler, with episode One of Season One, back when he had 20-mins or airtime 
[after commercials were deducted] of non-prime-time slot, *i did have an open mind - * & i continued to watch 
every episode up to Sept-1st, 2009, when i moved & could no longer get Natl-Geo Channel; i watched every episode 
very carefully, most of them 3 to 4 times each, at least once each with the sound muted, in order to focus on 
body-language & events, with no voice-over or 'shark-week' dramatic musical scores to tweak emotional impact 
on the viewer/listener.

i do not claim to watch without any critical judgment - i do watch critically, but Cesar's besetting weakness 
IMO has been his "one-trick pony" knee-jerk declaration that this, that & the other dog is *'dominant'.* 
* dominance is INTRAspecies, not INTERspecies 
* dominance is an event - not a character trait or lifestyle 
* dominance is over *resources -* not status, rank, popularity, or any other supposed goal.

cheers, 
- terry


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> at a guess, i'd say U have overdosed on the Dawg-Wrassler, who is not a scientifically accurate source.


It works for Chihuahua, does it matter what source, if any, he has used to get it to work for him.

Anybody can get a dog to 'follow/migrate/walk on a lead nicely" 'with them, the question to ask is, "is that dog really with them or just being obedient", these are two distinct modes. My first dog did competition obedience but would bugger off over the hills when left to free run - she sure was obedient, but in context and most definitely 'not with me', and in hindsight neither in nor out of the ring.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> It works for Chihuahua, does it matter what source, if any, he has used to get it to work for him


Knowing when someone is following a school of thought, does help in understanding their outlook. The problem is, when a "way of life with the dog" is advocated that does not actually address in any way the practical problem the owner & dog was having (unreliable recall in prescence of other dogs).

Whilst DW/anti-DW views is often seen as a battle, and personalised against CM polarisging things, I don't see why people shouldn't chip away and hope to plant seeds of doubt. There's no harm in someone doing more research and taking in the work from more sources, is there? If it improves quality of life and saves some people from dog bites, and less checking and phsyical corrections, isn't that a good thing?



Irish Setter Gal said:


> Anybody can get a dog to 'follow/migrate/walk on a lead nicely" 'with them, the question to ask is, "is that dog really with them or just being obedient", these are two distinct modes. My first dog did competition obedience but would bugger off over the hills when left to free run - she sure was obedient, but in context and most definitely 'not with me', and in hindsight neither in nor out of the ring.


But very many owners can't, I see a huge number battling with strong dogs on flexi-leads, or requiring head collars to avoid pulling.

I do agree on your last point. When my dog explores ahead or to side, he looks regularly to check on me, and responds if I inform him of a change in route. Whether the dog is truly under effective control has nothing to do with if they are ahead or behind you. I do think behind is safer on many routes, so there's a place for training off leash heeling to in addition to solid recall; but not insisting on it 100% of the time.


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## bradray (Mar 9, 2011)

We helping you decide when it's time to trust your dog off-lead.
ChemistDirect


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