# why dont some people understand?



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I see a advert for 3 ragdolls 'unrelated' (well, who knows?) all the same age for 'breeding' no papers no health tests   forsale due to 'ill health'

I contacted them asking about health tests and begged them not to sell them for breeding and to please neuter them as a BYB breeder would buy them.

They contacted me back thanking me for advice and have decided to keep and breed them instead?! so much for the 'ill health' reason then 

She contacted me today (dont know why) to 'check out her advert'

She is selling the kittens for £100 no papers   they arent even due for 4 months?? (which makes no sense) 

I just sent her a email back saying to Please neuter them and if she wants to breed to just do it proplery.

I wish there was some sort of way to stop this, esp as it is ragdolls, my breed  it hurts even more.

If I had the money Id buy them from her and neuter them, but I just dont have it or the room, incase they are ill.

I hope she thinks about my email and neuters them 

Edit: oh no i just checked her advert she sold the boy to be a stud cat in essex : ( no paperwork, no health tests, dont even know if his a pedigree 

Edit: They just said to me now the kittens have paperwork and vacs, even though the advert says they dont?
They also said that they will be selling their kittens for £100 OR they will give them away to take money away from greedy breeders pockets......ah dear!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

and this is when I get up the noses of a great many pet forum members....

as long as people buy kittens like this, unscrupulous breeders will keep churning them out. We (kitten buyers) create a demand which unscrupulous breeders are only to happy to fill. We keep buying, they will keep churning out litter after litter. 

I admire you efforts TB, trying to talk some sense into these people, I doubt though it will have any effect. I truly do think the best way to "cure" this problem is by educating the kitten-buying public.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Tje said:


> I truly do think the best way to "cure" this problem is by educating the kitten-buying public.


I agree, but it will never happen IMO.
It is all too easy to breed from a cat, there is no regulation and anyone can let their cat out and become a "breeder" tomorrow. 
It is easy to get a kitten as there is always someone's cat having "just the one litter" or is having "kittens by mistake" or is being bred for some extra money and there are plenty of kittens for sale everywhere, moggie and pedigree.
So your average kitten buyer is spoiled for choice, so why would they feel the need to be "educated"?
Some pedigree breeders are hardly any better, so although we are rightly appalled by the BYB mentality, some pedigree breeders are "churning them out" just the same as any BYB, with little knowledge or care. The only difference is a piece of paper.

In order to make an impact on the cat population and the abuse of cats and the number being pts or in rescue, then there needs to be a shift away from the expendable attitude that many have towards their cat. 
So while some have the idea that cats are on a pedestal and spend their lives researching them and looking after them, a lot of people do not hardly think about them at all, apart from "have you fed the cat?" or "its time it went outside" or "we need a new one".


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Just thinking outside the box here & I may be completely wrong...

Wasn't it the case that a few years ago, with more neutering being done & kitten prices being so low (one of my cats was actually £5 - I don't know why they bothered asking for that tbh) that there were fewer kittens than there is now? That due to the fewer kittens & higher demand people started asking for £150 for a moggie? This is the impression I got as when I was looking at getting a kitten about four or five years ago for my sister there were NONE. We looked in all the freeads in MAY & there was nothing. Thankfully, for her, there was a litter at the RSPCA. Since then it seems to be a "boom" perhaps with people thinking they can ask for what they like & make £££.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

they def arent pedigree 2 of them have short hair and only 1 has long hair 

I tried my best, who the hell as bought it as a 'stud cat'  I really hope that I dont see him being advertised, poor boy  

There isnt anyway to police any laws though put upon breeders? I really wish that they would make it a 'law' to not let them go before 12weeks and be vet checkced twice and fully vac and wormed, that should hopefully make some of the the 5-8week kitten breeder think again, and some sort of neutering campayin or something.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> Just thinking outside the box here & I may be completely wrong...
> 
> Wasn't it the case that a few years ago, with more neutering being done & kitten prices being so low (one of my cats was actually £5 - I don't know why they bothered asking for that tbh) that there were fewer kittens than there is now? That due to the fewer kittens & higher demand people started asking for £150 for a moggie? This is the impression I got as when I was looking at getting a kitten about four or five years ago for my sister there were NONE. We looked in all the freeads in MAY & there was nothing. Thankfully, for her, there was a litter at the RSPCA. Since then it seems to be a "boom" perhaps with people thinking they can ask for what they like & make £££.


I think there are plenty of kittens to go about, alot of good breeders dont advertise on the free ads, i advertise on a couple, I think that good breeders should with all the proper info and let the public decide what type of pet they want, a well reared health tested one, or one that is cheap (cant see any other reason)

I just think that people charge these prices through greed with little to no care of the kittens or the cats that they have, also with dogs.

there is a litter for sale near me at the mo, 10 pups, mum is a collie x rottie, dad is a rotti x gsd i think it said, why have they bred them? £250 each.

also see a chinchilla kitten 8 weeks old £600, someone bought it aswell! then british cross ragdoll, £350-375, 8weeks old, yet pedigree rags fully vacv etc etc werent selling?

crazy worlds gone mad, have also seen some people coming up with names for cats, maine coon cross ragdoll = racoon,  both breeds suffer with HCM, so Why breed them together? I can only think of one answer


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I agree, but it will never happen IMO.


it won't happen overnight no, and it won't be a total cure no, but educattion is the key to changing norms. I can name at least 5 posters from this forum who have bought kittens in the last 12 months from dodgy breeders, those 5 people are now better educated and wouldn't buy from this type of dodgy breeder in the future.



lauren001 said:


> So your average kitten buyer is spoiled for choice, so why would they feel the need to be "educated"?


well like I just said above, not ALL will want to be educated, many people though do buy these kittens then learn, then think "well now I know better I will act better in the future". Like I say, I can name at least 5 from the petforum alone.



lauren001 said:


> Some pedigree breeders are hardly any better, so although we are rightly appalled by the BYB mentality, some pedigree breeders are "churning them out" just the same as any BYB, with little knowledge or care. The only difference is a piece of paper.


Absolutely, and you ever hear me disagreeing with that. Just because a kitten comes from a registered breeder does NOT mean it is ethically bred or raised.



lauren001 said:


> In order to make an impact on the cat population and the abuse of cats and the number being pts or in rescue, then there needs to be a shift away from the expendable attitude that many have towards their cat.


but isn't that just another form of education? While I absolutely don't disagree with you (in fact I strongly agree with you), whether we educate people not to treat their cats as expendable objects, or educate them to buy ethically -- both are similar forms of education.

What makes you think people don't/won't want educating on buying ethically, but will want educating on not treatimng pets as disposable commodities?


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I bought a kitten from a bad breeder a few months ago. Just your average Ginger cat. I normally wouldn't have but I caught a glimpse of this wee face on gumtree... He looked exactly like my old cat from when I was growing up. Couldn't help myself and he was the last one to go.. That was the cat's 3rd litter apparently. Bet you the money didn't go to getting her spayed like he said! What really gets to me is seeing adverts for designer dogs. Labradoodles. One ad on gumtree was looking for £700 for each pup!!! No health testing of course! Really despise people who just use animals to make money...


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Tje said:


> What makes you think people don't/won't want educating on buying ethically, but will want educating on not treatimng pets as disposable commodities?


I don't think either can be "educated" easily, no one can make a person think more of their pet, nor tell them where to get a pet from.

I feel that it is a losing battle. Just about everyone "knows" about puppy farmers and kitten mills yet they still toddle off along to pet shops, still look to buy kittens from hell holes of properties, still ignore the basic principles of cat care in their search for a cheap one, or a bargain pedigree one. It just seems that few really care, as long as they have the kitten they want, for the price they want it, when they want it and where they can get it.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Sadly so true Lauren, but. Its a (verrrrrrrry) slow process but I am convinced things are changing. OK, no noticeable difference compared to last year or even 5 years ago, but compared to 20 years ago, then yes I see differences. 

Then again, lol, maybe I am just "cup half full" for my own sanity. :arf:


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Tje said:


> it won't happen overnight no, and it won't be a total cure no, but educattion is the key to changing norms. I can name at least 5 posters from this forum who have bought kittens in the last 12 months from dodgy breeders, those 5 people are now better educated and wouldn't buy from this type of dodgy breeder in the future.


I am one of the "better educated" who bought a kitten from a dodgy breeder and not only will I never make that mistake again,I will carry the banner promoting ethical breeders.I made a genuine mistake,not because the kitten was cheaper,it wasnt,I still had to pay for vaccs ect ,I just wanted a kitten,saw the ad.and that was it.Dont get me wrong ,I would never part with him,but he has been a prime example of all the reasons "not " to buy from BYB's.He had serious behaviour issues which brought me to tears on many occasions,but we survived.He is never going to be a "typical" ragdoll, but ,I love him to bits,warts and all.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> I am one of the "better educated" who bought a kitten from a dodgy breeder and not only will I never make that mistake again,I will carry the banner promoting ethical breeders.I made a genuine mistake,not because the kitten was cheaper,it wasnt,I still had to pay for vaccs ect ,I just wanted a kitten,saw the ad.and that was it.Dont get me wrong ,I would never part with him,but he has been a prime example of all the reasons "not " to buy from BYB's.He had serious behaviour issues which brought me to tears on many occasions,but we survived.He is never going to be a "typical" ragdoll, but ,I love him to bits,warts and all.


hehehee, ok, you were 1 of the 5 I was thinking of. 

and that's exactly what I meant... you (and others) knew no better, so you bought from dodgy/less than ethical breeders. Now you do know better, you will (in the future) buy better. And I do think that we can all help by educating the kitten buying public in this way. OK, sure, a Satchi & Satchi slick add campagne on national tv and newspapers would be better and quicker, but I still think a forum like this is as good as any manner of getting the message out there.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

35 yrs ago it was the norm to "let them just have 1 litter" now it's not.

Hopefully 30 years from now people will buy from more ethical breeders.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I thought I may have been, so just wanted to agree with what you said.Even if only a few, learn not do it again,they will as you said hopefully help to prevent others from making the same mistakes.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

that's basically my way of thinking Buffie. 

I remember my mum telling me 35 years ago to save my breath trying to convert the neighbours to get their female cats neutered... as much as my mum loves cats, she really did think I was pi$$ing in the wind and wasting my time ... but fast forward 35 years and it still happens (that some cats have opps litters), but nowhere near as much as it used to. I really do think it will be the same with buying ethically, it will change, and hopefully with communuication today being so much more accessible than it was 35 years ago, it will happen faster too. 

*yes, my galss is half full, lol*


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

I saw this advert on another site the other week and it makes you want to jump up and down in frustration especially the claim about "_shorter thicker haired types don't need grooming and better if you have allergy_"...type of thing...ARRGGHHH and the difference in prices! Thing is they have wormed and Frontlined them and at least they have kept them until 11 weeks so why not vaccinate? There was a link to a FB page of photos - and their cats were a pretty mixed bunch and definitely some crosses there.

_Cost: £ 275 each ONLY 1 REMAINING
Ragdolls are fun. The best pet you could ever wish for. Lively loving and full of fun.
They are house cats but enjoy a session in the sun. The long hair types need daily grooming and will shed a little. The shorter thicker haired types don't need grooming and are better if you have an allergy I have blues seals and bi colour.
They are large cats and mature later than other cats.
1 Long Haired seal mitted female £350.00 Sold
1 long haired bi-coloured female £350.00 
1 Seal Mitted Female £275.00 Sold
1 Blue Pointed Male £275.00 Sold
1 Blue Mitted Male £275.00 SOLD
All kittens are home bred as pets and live with the family, children and dogs. Litter trained eating normal food, wormed and frontined.
Kittens need vaccinating at 3 months old. Parents fully vaccinated and can be seen
The kittens are 11 weeks and are well grown and ready to go_

Sometimes if I am perusing ads and see one for a Raggie being sold on entire - for whatever reason - I will drop them an e-mail and suggest they consider surrendering the cat to the Ragdoll Rehome Group if they want the cat out of the house...falls on deaf ears but at least we try...!


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

William cost me a whole forty pounds and came to me at a mere 5 weeks and 5 days old. The woman I bought him from clearly made her living from breeding animals and benefits; I didn't buy him due to the price, (am I right and thinking this price is fairly standard for a moggy that hasn't come from a rescue?) but as I had been refused by the shelters in my area I felt, at the time, that I had no other choice. I could add more to the story by stating what would have happened if I hadn't got him and he'd gone with someone else at four weeks bla, bla, bla......but the reality is that in hindsight I really do feel that the circumstances in which *I willingly made the choice * to buy William were shameful. Suffice to say I don't feel proud of myself when thinking of it and I wouldn't ever make the same mistake again (so thank you PF!!)  
I really do think that if more people were educated, many of them wouldn't be making the same mistakes.

Of course this isn't to say that I regret getting William or don't love him dearly and think he's utterly perfect, that just goes without saying 

Sparkles
x


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## allycatsiamese (Jun 29, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I think there are plenty of kittens to go about, alot of good breeders dont advertise on the free ads, i advertise on a couple, I think that good breeders should with all the proper info and let the public decide what type of pet they want, a well reared health tested one, or one that is cheap (cant see any other reason)
> 
> I just think that people charge these prices through greed with little to no care of the kittens or the cats that they have, also with dogs.
> 
> ...


I just had this happen today . I was browsing on a free classified site in my area and saw someone selling Siamese kittens for $350. I know registered breeders who sell their kittens for that price! In her ad she stated "No Papers, No Shots, No BS."

I watch the ads on this site all the time, February last year BYB kittens with no vaccinations were selling from $200-$285. Prices keep going up and up and up. It's ridiculous!

So many people have been selling their kittens (and probably puppies, too) so young that the website has actually posted notices that kittens shouldn't be rehomed until 8 weeks at the earliest, and that it is illegal to sell them younger. Kittens birthdate is now required to post an ad. It wasn't uncommon before they did this to see people selling kittens at 5 weeks.

I also know of a Scottish Fold BYB who sells her kittens for crazy prices, knowingly full of worms!!! She doesn't bother to deworm, so I doubt she's vaccinating either.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I have a question and hope I wont be shot down in flames (tho I am wearing my airplane fighters hat dont ask  ) but what about people who want a mixed bred/moggie but dont want to or cant adopt but dont want a purebred?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I have a question and hope I wont be shot down in flames [....] but what about people who want a mixed bred/moggie but dont want to or cant adopt but dont want a purebred?


I don't quite understand your question. Though I will try to respond.

Why would someone not *want to* adopt? (especially if a crossbreed was their cat or kitten of choice?)

Not being _*able to*_ adopt, well, while I am the first to agree that many rescue centers have insane and way too strict rehoming policies, many don't. So if I was looking to adopt, and one rescue centre turned me down, and I was convinced this was a baseless decision, then I would fight it tooth and nail. An easier alternative though would be to go to other rescue orgs with less rigid rehoming rules.

Any kitten (moggy, cross bred or purebred) can be ethically bred and properly raised and rehomed at the correct age with the correct vaccinations, worm and flea treatments and vet checks.

Granted I have never ever come across ethically _bred_ moggies. But I do _raise_ shelter kittens AFTER they have been unethically and irresponsibly bred. I can't do much about how they were bred, but I can assure they are extremely well raised and responsibly and ethically rehomed at no younger than 12 weeks, no lighter than 1200grams and with at least 3 vet checks, worm treatments, flea treatments, microchips and home checks.

My desire to have ethically bred and reared cats FAR outstrips my wish to have a particular breed. So just for the sake of it, say I wanted a maine coon and I couldn't easily find an ethically bred/reared MC, but could find ethically bred Siamese or Burmese, then Siamese or Burmese it would be!! Or I would travel far further afield for the MC that meets my standards (breeding and rearing wise).

The same of course is true for cross breeds, they _*can*_ be ethically bred, it's your duty as the buyer (if ethics are important to you) to buy ethically bred and reared kittens. I can't for the life of me imagine why I would even want a cross breed but not a pure breed, but for the sake of this discussion just say I did, well it's my responsibility as a buyer to ensure they are ethically bred/reared, if they're not, it's my responsibility to refuse to buy. Irrespective to how much I wanted that red maine coon male crossed with a black and white female moggie. Surely animal welfare ethics are more important than our wishes for colour/breed combos???????

So the simple answer to your question is… what is more important to you,

a) ethically bred kittens of a breed that possibly isn't your first choice, or 
b) unethically bred kittens of the exact cross combination of your choice

???

For me it's a no-brainer.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Sparkles87 said:


> Suffice to say I don't feel proud of myself when thinking of it and I wouldn't ever make the same mistake again (so thank you PF!!)
> I really do think that if more people were educated, many of them wouldn't be making the same mistakes.


and it's people like you (and Buffie) that convince me it's worthwhile to keep spreading the "buy ethically" message. :thumbup:

which is not to say that every poster on the PetForums are as receptive as you and Buffie are. Some people simply never will admit to making a mistake, or just don't care enough to buy ethically:... but there are plenty of genuine people out there who would happily do differently if only they knew differently. So I agree, if people were educated many of them would make far better (far more animal friendly) decisions.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Dogs, not cats, but the same either way... I agree it's very hard to educate people and change their mindset. My own sister recently bought a husky puppy; she'd already bought the pup when she told me this... no health checks on parents; none of the dogs KC registered,the bitch was actually a rescue dog; the pup (she was told) had had a digestive upset and at my sister's request the breeder agreed they would, together, take the pup along to a vet for check priror to purchase where they were told the pup had a heart murmur. The breeder discounted the pup £100 and the purchase went ahead.

I've since seen the puppy - they've had her a few months now - and VERY fortunately for them the heart murmur has disappeared and she's a beautiful, playful, friendly and healthy little thing. But it could have been SO different and usually is in those sort of circumstances.

And why did they buy this particular puppy? Because the breeder lived 5 minutes down the road, the pup was undeniably beautiful, they didn't have to go on a waiting list for months or years and the pup was several hundred pounds cheaper than a (better advised) alternative. My sister's a smashing, very caring person and certainly no idiot... but as with so many people - they want it now.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> And why did they buy this particular puppy? Because the breeder lived *5 minutes down the road*, the pup was undeniably beautiful, they didn't have to go on a waiting list for months or years and the pup was *several hundred pounds cheaper *than a (better advised) alternative. My sister's a smashing, very caring person and certainly no idiot... but as with so many people - *they want it now*.


yep, sadly cheap and easy are very high on a lot of buyer's priority lists.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

I think a lot of it has to do with the status of pedigree animals in our horrible consumer driven world and people and that some view a pedigree pet in the same way as a designer handbag and if you can a 'cheap knock off' then you feel all smug and proud because you got a bargain. If you look you see a pattern of trendy breeds hitting saturation point and becoming very common so a new more 'exciting' or 'exotic' breed comes along so the back yard breeders start on the next big thing, I mean how many people come on here with pure bred bengals which are just a pretty tabby.

Also you have to deal with (I include myself here because I knew better) that go and see cats/kittens in less than desirable conditions and so give the money just to get the cat out of the situation, which then just encourages the breeder* or in my case the rescue to keep churning the cats out because it pays.

*By saying breeder I mean byb's and the moggie owners that churn out kittens


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

> Tje
> Re: why dont some people understand?
> 
> and it's people like you (and Buffie) that convince me it's worthwhile to keep spreading the "buy ethically" message.
> ...


Yup, as usual you're right my dear  It's a shame the we get the occasional newbie (or sometimes not so occasional) that won't admit fault in buying a 6 week old kitten (moggie or otherwise) even when they've been told of the pitfalls. I don't doubt that these people love the kittens in question, but many of them just don't love them enough to put in the time and effort required with a kitten so young (in my opinion). I always remember that Becki girl you told me about when I joined and feel horribly sad at the fact that so many kittens will be treated this way due to no fault of their own :frown: William is no angel and is probably more 'bitey' in play than kittens who were afforded the time to socialise with mum and siblings, but I know full well that this isn't his fault. If anything, it is mines!



> GreyHare
> Re: why dont some people understand?
> 
> Also you have to deal with (I include myself here because I knew better) that go and see cats/kittens in less than desirable conditions and so give the money just to get the cat out of the situation, which then just encourages the breeder* or in my case the rescue to keep churning the cats out because it pays.
> ...


This was the exact situation I found myself in. The lady was a 'breeder' of moggies, and the conditions in which I saw William were pretty awful. I remember thinking I couldn't live with myself if I left him there to be bought at 4 weeks old, but I am now fully aware that in the bigger picture I was simply encouraging people such as her to keep producing kittens. Not good.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

GreyHare said:


> I think a lot of it has to do with the status of pedigree animals in our horrible consumer driven world and people and that some view a pedigree pet in the same way as a designer handbag and if you can a 'cheap knock off' then you feel all smug and proud because you got a bargain. If you look you see a pattern of trendy breeds hitting saturation point and becoming very common so a new more 'exciting' or 'exotic' breed comes along so the back yard breeders start on the next big thing, I* mean how many people come on here with pure bred bengals which are just a pretty tabby*.
> 
> Also you have to deal with (I include myself here because I knew better) that go and see cats/kittens in less than desirable conditions and so give the money just to get the cat out of the situation, which then just encourages the breeder* or in my case the rescue to keep churning the cats out because it pays.
> 
> *By saying breeder I mean byb's and the moggie owners that churn out kittens


I agree, the Bengal is a much maligned breed and is very easy to reproduce as many just see a brown tabby and immediately think it must be a Bengal. So Bengal crosses are very common. How many actually have Bengal in them is questionable. It is not really helped by some some breeders breeding poor quality pure Bengals.
This is a real quality Bengal 









What many breeders are selling are as you say just brown tabbies.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Tje said:


> I dont quite understand your question. Though I will try to respond.
> 
> Why would someone not *want to* adopt? (especially if a crossbreed was their cat or kitten of choice?)
> 
> ...


Thanks. I just know of several people who currently own cats or have had cats were if they wanted another I know they wouldnt want to adopt or that they would get turned down.

So if a person wants a mixed breed cat and doesnt want to adopt you would recommend them swifting through ads and try and find an ethically raised kitten.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Thanks. I just know of several people who currently own cats or have had cats were if they wanted another I know they wouldnt want to adopt or that they would get turned down.
> 
> So if a person wants a mixed breed cat and doesnt want to adopt you would recommend them swifting through ads and try and find an ethically raised kitten.


When you say mixed breed do you mean an average mog or a part pedigree/exotic mixed with a mog ? but yes there are ethical breeders out there of mogs, I know that my vet would reccommend a few as they did when I asked about kittens and they have a lady that breeds moggies that are beautiful healthly and so friendly but she does tend to have a waiting list for kittens, so me being me went down a bad route


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Thanks. I just know of several people who currently own cats or have had cats were if they wanted another I know they wouldnt want to adopt or that they would get turned down.
> 
> So if a person wants a mixed breed cat and doesnt want to adopt you would recommend them swifting through ads and try and find an ethically raised kitten.


well no........

I would first want them to explain to me why they didn't want to adopt. Or why they were getting turned down to adopt. Someone like myself (who raises shelter kittens) is going to be every bit as demanding of a new owner as a person with pedigree kittens is. The only real difference I can see is, I have to accept that many of my kiitens won't be indoor-only kittens, which is far more of the norm for pedigree kittens. But in support of that, peds are stolen a lot more than moggies or crosses. Just because my kittens are moggies does not mean I let them go to any Tom, Dick or Harry. They got to good homes or they don't go at all. I have a say in that, as does the shelter rehoming coordinator.

I know a fair old bit about cats and kittens... and I simply would not know where to go if I wanted an ethically bred moggy or cross. In all my years of rescue I have simply never came across ethically bred moggies or crosses. NEVER!!

Now I might find someone who has a litter of moggy x ragdolls because their female ragdoll escaped and got impregnanted by the neighbourhood tom cat. But I would still have to satisfy myself that this was a 100% genuine mistake and not just a laid-back-to-the-point-of-being-horizontal breeder who just lets their out of season females wander at random.

I don't think you (or your friends) have an easy task looking for an ethically bred cross or moggy.... it would be much easier to look for an ethically bred pure breed.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

This is a big reason why we early neuter our cats at 14 weeks, there is no way anyone could use any of our cats for breeding, we've had emails asking for kittens un-neutered, never hear from them again after we tell them no. You can vet your buyers till the cows come home but some people know this and they become your perfect pet owner until they have their kitten, then you never hear from them again, best you can try is too get the prefixes of the cats being used by a BYB and tell the breeder what they are doing.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Tje said:


> well no........
> 
> I would first want them to explain to me why they didn't want to adopt. Or why they were getting turned down to adopt. Someone like myself (who raises shelter kittens) is going to be every bit as demanding of a new owner as a person with pedigree kittens is. The only real difference I can see is, I have to accept that many of my kiitens won't be indoor-only kittens, which is far more of the norm for pedigree kittens. But in support of that, peds are stolen a lot more than moggies or crosses. Just because my kittens are moggies does not mean I let them go to any Tom, Dick or Harry. They got to good homes or they don't go at all. I have a say in that, as does the shelter rehoming coordinator.
> 
> ...


The reason I can think of are

- Dont like people coming in who are strangers looking around the house

- Live on a hobbie horse type farm and cats are mainly outdoors and only really come in when they sneak in and then stay hidden because the family dog doesnt like them.

- Dont like the idea of contracts

- Cant afford the price of a rescue (I myself have seen some for 250$ at a local sspca centre)

- Dont believe in getting the cat its shots every year besides rabies.

Theres probably a few more. Im not trying to start an argument I just want to know what a person who has these feelings should do if they wanted a mixed cat instead of a purebred but dont want to rehome or cant.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

GreyHare said:


> When you say mixed breed do you mean an average mog or a part pedigree/exotic mixed with a mog ? but yes there are ethical breeders out there of mogs, I know that my vet would reccommend a few as they did when I asked about kittens and they have a lady that breeds moggies that are beautiful healthly and so friendly but she does tend to have a waiting list for kittens, so me being me went down a bad route


Yup I mean your average house cat (Moggie is British term I believe)

I think there a was a lady on here at one time that bred your common house cat, dont think she is here anymore tho :confused1:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> The reason I can think of are
> 
> - Dont like people coming in who are strangers looking around the house


well my ethically raised kittens wouldnt be going to them. How else am I supposed to judge if these people are suitable owners if they wont let me into their home??



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> - Live on a hobbie horse type farm and cats are mainly outdoors and only really come in when they sneak in and then stay hidden because the family dog doesnt like them.


I wouldnt rehome my kittens as mainly outdoor to a home with a cat hating dog. I doubt if many ethical breeders would. Unless people are desperate to get rid of their kittens, I dont see why they would settler for kittens that arent part of the heart of the family home. And good breeders are never desperate for a home, they would rather keep their kittens than settle for a home like your friend can offer.



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> - Dont like the idea of contracts


Again, their loss, not mine. Contracts are there for the cat/kittens benefit and I would imagine that all ethical breeders sell/rehome their kittens with contracts. The very fact a potential new owner was anti-contract (as well as anti home check) well. Its not making your friends look like that great a prospect for cat-owner-of-the-year award. 



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> - Cant afford the price of a rescue (I myself have seen some for 250$ at a local sspca centre)


*cant afford* rescue centre prices but* can afford *to buy unvaccinated (un chipped, not wormed or flea treated) cross breeds. That would make every alarm bell I have ring. And absolutely not in a positive sense. 



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> - Dont believe in getting the cat its shots every year besides rabies.


This on its own wouldnt be a deal breaker for me as long as the potential new owner could give me a half coherent reason why they didnt want annual boosters. Too often people only have this stance in order to save money, and that for me is a warning signal not to send my kitten to them. Other people who are well versed on vaccination (and can prove that to me in the manner they present their objections) well thats a different matter entirely.



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Theres probably a few more. Im not trying to start an argument I just want to know what a person who has these feelings should do if they wanted a mixed cat instead of a purebred but dont want to rehome or cant.


And Im not trying to start an argument when I say that most good ethical responsible breeders will not want your friends to become the new owners of their kittens.  I sure wouldnt. Trust is a two way street, I want a breeder to trust me with their kitten, I have to trust them and their home visit and their contract and their reasoning for their many and varied questioning. I actually welcome a thorough vetting by breeders and would never take a kitten from a breeder who didnt vet me properly, because that for me is the very definition of dodgy breeder. By the sounds of your friends, they probably are just people ideally suited to buying kittens from dodgy ads from dodgy breeders. And I really dont mean that to sound horrid, its just the reality as I see it. :



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I think there a was a lady on here at one time that bred your common house cat, dont think she is here anymore tho:confused1:


When you say this woman bred moggies do you mean she just let her unneutered female cat outdoors to mate with any neighbourhood Tom, or do you mean someone who actually did it ethically and had studs and queens tested and health checked, kept kittens till they were vaccinated, wormed them and deflead them, had them all health checked by a vet, raised all the kittens to a high level of socialization, vetted potential new owners? These are namely the things that generally split ethical breeders from unethical breeders. Anyone can just let their cat out to get pregnant and raise a litter of kittens in a slipshod manner. Ethical and responsible breeders are FAR removed from this.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> The reason I can think of are
> 
> - Dont like people coming in who are strangers looking around the house
> 
> ...


Can I ask, out of interest,why would such a person want a cat, and more to the point why would they think anyone would be willing to let them have one.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> Can I ask, out of interest,why would such a person want a cat, and more to the point why would they think anyone would be willing to let them have one.


I agree. And can I just add to that, for MissPuddyCat, I understand you are trying to help your friends, but don't you think your time would be better spent trying to talk some sense into them? I mean their expectations are far from realistic, and far from cat-friendly. And surely as a friend you are best placed to tell them that.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

blimey didnt reaslise this had so many replys, someone is selling raggies naer me, lovely looking, £350 each, full vac, which is good, but no paperwork, so then could be birman cross raggies? who knows.

you can get them with paperwork for that price.

mind you the people on my waiting/contact list for this litter, one of them doesnt want any paperwork, she isnt bothered, she will still get it though lol


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Tje said:


> well my ethically raised kittens wouldnt be going to them. How else am I supposed to judge if these people are suitable owners if they wont let me into their home??
> 
> Im not sure, some people (me and my mom for instance, as well as a family friend) arent comfortable with strangers coming in and having a look around.
> 
> ...


I believe she did it ethically but this was when I had first joined and your talking to someone with the memory of your common goldfish.

I think her Named started with an S or something when I have time Ill see if I can find her.



buffie said:


> Can I ask, out of interest,why would such a person want a cat, and more to the point why would they think anyone would be willing to let them have one.


 Your asking the same question I have had in my head about my friends family. They are a very..... :confused1: hmmm cant think of a word to descibe them. Basically my friends parents grew up way in the country and therefore animals to them are just that animals.



Tje said:


> I agree. And can I just add to that, for MissPuddyCat, I understand you are trying to help your friends, but don't you think your time would be better spent trying to talk some sense into them? I mean their expectations are far from realistic, and far from cat-friendly. And surely as a friend you are best placed to tell them that.


 I have known this family for 5 to 6 years (I dated one of their sons for 5 years. I have been banned from the house and not liked because of my social background. Maybe thats way there was a traintrack going across town and I lived on one side and he the other. Basically nothing I say will make a difference to them. I saw them this past christmas and as I walked in I said Hi and Merry christmas I got a grunt and snort and later told they were surprised to see me.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> ]




resuces dont come and and look over your home, they come in and sit on your sofa in your lounge or kitchen and they ask you 'if you have had cats before' and other normal questions, they dont ask things like 'do you go out partying and dress up in womens clothes' cos that wouldnt affect a cat! 

breeders dont often come to your home but they will ask questions...if they dont? then they could give a toss whether you are going to sell it on or feed it to a snake  the type I mean are more like 'theres the kitten do you want it' or offer to deliver so you dont have to ever see the litter or mum...if she even exsists.

good breeders will say things like 'have you owned cats before or this breed of cat that you are looking for?' 'do you work full or part time'? as if its full you may wish to consider 2 kittens for company, 'do you have a dog is it cat friendly'

its isnt exactly the 3rd degree is it? if someone walked away from those questions? id be bloody happy that i never sold them a kitten! cant answer simple questions? cant have akitten...simples!

edit: goldfish have quite good memorys...thats a myth


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

I have to admit i brought my kittens at 8 weeks old. It wasnt until i joined this forum that i realised my gut instinct to pay the 'breeder' to look after them for another couple of weeks was right. 

I regret getting them so early however i have done everything in my power and several hundreds of pounds to make sure they are healthy.

There are alot of people out there thinking 8weeks is the norm and i dont think it helps that rescue centres are willing to let kittens go at 8 weeks also. I now know better and any future cats will be a minimum of 13 weeks. However there will always be people like myself where they only get educated on the facts once it is too late and they have the kitten.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> resuces dont come and and look over your home, they come in and sit on your sofa in your lounge or kitchen and they ask you 'if you have had cats before' and other normal questions, they dont ask things like 'do you go out partying and dress up in womens clothes' cos that wouldnt affect a cat!


Depends on the rescue the large country wide rescue that I got mine from arrived with the cats when she did the home check and this was consisted of signing a form and giving her cash, she was in my kitchen for no more than 5 minutes 

I grew up on farms and we always had cats but some where house cats but several were proper farm cats/ferals that lived in the barns, a lot of rescues are usually crying out for farms to take on rescue ferals.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> resuces dont come and and look over your home, they come in and sit on your sofa in your lounge or kitchen and they ask you 'if you have had cats before' and other normal questions, they dont ask things like 'do you go out partying and dress up in womens clothes' cos that wouldnt affect a cat!
> Yeh I dont mean question like that but I have looked up rescues, have read the requirements and read stories. Some make me uncomfortable. Also its not me that uncomfortable I would be willing to give it a go but I know its a no go with my mom and I can see my friends family be unliking of the idea
> 
> I like dress up,got me my airplane hat
> ...


 True Ive seen them to tricks in tanks but I meant the saying


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MissPC -- sorry but you are not doing a good job of selling this friend of yours to me. Hehe. To be honest, your friends sound like the last type of person a good and ethical breeder would want their kittens to go to. They sound scarey. They sound like the last person I would want my kittens to go to, and I honestly think I am as realistic, down to earth and open-minded as they come with rehoming kittens (and still having a healthy interest in where and with whom my kittens end up). 

As for your own (or your mums) objections to rescue (or breeders) home checks well I guess you have to weigh up what is important to you, privacy versus the welfare of an animal. I value my privacy, but I also value animal welfare so welcome all forms of vetting for any pets I take on. I honestly wouldnt want a cat from a breeder or a rescue that didnt want to make me jump through some (reasonably sized, hehe) hoops.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

GreyHare said:


> Depends on the rescue the large country wide rescue that I got mine from arrived with the cats when she did the home check and this was consisted of signing a form and giving her cash, she was in my kitchen for no more than 5 minutes
> 
> I grew up on farms and we always had cats but some where house cats but several were proper farm cats/ferals that lived in the barns, a lot of rescues are usually crying out for farms to take on rescue ferals.


well I wouldnt even call them a rescue  ive been 'home-checked' for a fair few different rescues and have to say that all were pretty good, didnt want to go through me house did look in the back garden fora fence as this was to foster dogs, didnt want them getting out!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Annie2610 said:


> I have to admit i brought my kittens at 8 weeks old. It wasnt until i joined this forum that i realised my gut instinct to pay the 'breeder' to look after them for another couple of weeks was right.


awww that makes me so incredibly happy to read that!!!!! It kinda means that all our collective harping on is getting through 



Annie2610 said:


> I regret getting them so early however i have done everything in my power and several hundreds of pounds to make sure they are healthy.


that too, lol. Kittens are put on this earth to make us work and to cost us money. It is their sole objective 



Annie2610 said:


> There are alot of people out there thinking 8weeks is the norm and i dont think it helps that rescue centres are willing to let kittens go at 8 weeks also. I now know better and any future cats will be a minimum of 13 weeks. However there will always be people like myself where they only get educated on the facts once it is too late and they have the kitten.


I know, it is hard to try and talk moggy breeders into keeping their cats till they are 12-13 weeks when rescues are rehoming them at 8. All I try to do is tell people rescues aint doing this because they want to rehome them at 8 weeks, they simply don't have the money and foster homes to keep them for another 5 weeks. BUT... I agree... it IS mixed signals and those are NEVER good.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> well I wouldnt even call them a rescue  ive been 'home-checked' for a fair few different rescues and have to say that all were pretty good, didnt want to go through me house did look in the back garden fora fence as this was to foster dogs, didnt want them getting out!


I shall name and shame them it was my local Cats Protection, the fosterer had the kittens in an outside pen which was a converted avairy and it had at least eight kittens in it and there was I discovered as I was about to leave also 4 very young ferals in the bedding area that she had collected that morning and put them in a pen with young kittens that were up for rehoming, which I knew was bad but the kittens all looked sad and skinny, so having had my heart strings well and truely tugged I said I would have them, they both had tummy trouble, mild flu symptoms,chlamydia/conjunctivitus and were very under weight, Monty I don't think had ever been in a home enviroment because he was so strange when he first encountered carpet.

She also insisted that they were best friends and had to go together well they didn't seem that close and also I feel hugely irresponsible to rehome two unrelated kittens of the opposite sex before they were neutured as I would/could have had my own little moggie breeding factory right there, and even though they gave me a sheet to post to them when I got them done I didn't as I lost it when me moved so they don't where I am and if they ever got done. Oh and I let her know that they were ill and she really didn't seem to care and never phoned to check on them.

When my vet first saw them she knew where they came from and she advised me to take them back as they were sickly little blighters, but I didn't because they had wormed they way into my heart, but I know two local vets that both disapprove of the local Cat Protection 

Sorry that turned into a huge rant but this is a reason I really don't like some rescue centres but I know that there are some that are good but they are few and far between :frown:


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Tje said:


> MissPC -- sorry but you are not doing a good job of selling this friend of yours to me. Hehe. To be honest, your friends sound like the last type of person a good and ethical breeder would want their kittens to go to. They sound scarey. They sound like the last person I would want my kittens to go to, and I honestly think I am as realistic, down to earth and open-minded as they come with rehoming kittens (and still having a healthy interest in where and with whom my kittens end up).
> 
> As for your own (or your mums) objections to rescue (or breeders) home checks well I guess you have to weigh up what is important to you, privacy versus the welfare of an animal. I value my privacy, but I also value animal welfare so welcome all forms of vetting for any pets I take on. I honestly wouldnt want a cat from a breeder or a rescue that didnt want to make me jump through some (reasonably sized, hehe) hoops.


Im not trying to sell them ya kidding :scared: My mom wanted to kidnap the two cats that went missing. But they will have cats in the future.

Well just have to wait and see how it goes when I start contacting breeders later this year.

Can we do free style jumping?


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

Tje said:


> that too, lol. Kittens are put on this earth to make us work and to cost us money. It is their sole objective


indeed but i dont mind i love them and enjoy every day with them. we have just moved house and the cats have behaved so well that i have just brought them a new bora bora cat tree as a thank you 

they are very spoilt :thumbup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

GreyHare said:


> When my vet first saw them she knew where they came from and she advised me to take them back as they were sickly little blighters, but I didn't because they had wormed they way into my heart, but I know two local vets that both disapprove of the local Cat Protection
> 
> Sorry that turned into a huge rant but this is a reason I really don't like some rescue centres but I know that there are some that are good but they are few and far between :frown:


geez louise, what a horrid story. I am the same with many rescues..... I wouldn't go near them with a ten foot bargepole. Neither to adopt one of their cats/kittens or to act as foster parent for them. Some of them really do more harm than good. Well intentioned or not, they often create more problems than solutions. Buttttt, it's not a popular stance to take, lol, so I had better shut up before the pink fluffies get me


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