# Working trials/ Schutzhund



## tomds87

Hi Everyone,
I am new to the forum and am interested in doing some kind of working trials/schutzhund training. My dog is 2.5 year old Australian Kelpie who I rescued around 1 year ago. He initially came to us with very little training and was, to be honest, a complete nightmare!! 1 year on with some serious training and he is now getting there. He has good drive and and loves playing playing tug, which makes me hopeful that he would be able to do the protection stuff for schutzhund. We have also started doing some tracking stuff as well.
My main question is really if anyone out there now doing this already has succeeded with a rescue dog and also if schutzhund would be suitable or not?

Kind regards,

Tom


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## Jenny Olley

Hi Tom, lots of people compete in working trials with rescues, Kelpies are not a commonly seen breed in trials. 
sorry I don't know anything about Schutzhund, Trials also has manwork once you have qualified to enter PD, and we would see a dog who likes to play tug as a good start to teaching it.


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## Guest

tomds87 said:


> My main question is really if anyone out there now doing this already has succeeded with a rescue dog and also if schutzhund would be suitable or not?


I know a gal who has a kelpie mix who does SchH. He's the dog who got her in to the sport, now she also has two malinois LOL!
A friend of mine does SchH with her rescued pit bull and she does quite well. I believe she has a SchH2 at this point. 
Another friend has a deafie bully breed mix who has his BH. I don't know how far she plans on going with him, he doesn't have much drive, but they're still both having a blast training.

It all depends on what you mean by success doesn't it?
Being competitive is much less likely to happen with an off-breed rescue. There is a reason people choose certain breeds of certain lines to do this sport 
But having fun training and playing with your dog? Totally.

The biggest thing with SchH is that the dog have the right temperament for the protection part. I don't know how things are there, but here, there are a ton of charlatans who will happily take your money and help you "train" your dog in protection without taking in to account if the dog has a temperament suited for protection or not. I would be *very* careful about selecting a club.


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## tomds87

Thanks for the response, I would love to get a shepherd but sadly the other half won't allow at the moment lol. I will be sure to do my research before joining a club.


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## smokeybear

tomds87 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> I am new to the forum and am interested in doing some kind of working trials/schutzhund training. My dog is 2.5 year old Australian Kelpie who I rescued around 1 year ago. He initially came to us with very little training and was, to be honest, a complete nightmare!! 1 year on with some serious training and he is now getting there. He has good drive and and loves playing playing tug, which makes me hopeful that he would be able to do the protection stuff for schutzhund. We have also started doing some tracking stuff as well.
> My main question is really if anyone out there now doing this already has succeeded with a rescue dog and also if schutzhund would be suitable or not?
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Tom


As Jenny has said, there are plenty of dogs in Working Trials which are rescue dogs, but only one or two kelpies but then the breed is not that common/popular in any case.

Obviously it is not necessary to participate in manwork in Working Trials as you can make up a WT Ch in TD (Tracking Dog).

The good thing is that in the lower stakes (and even in ticket) most people are after the letters after their dog's name and winning is not important except in PD/TD Championship where two wins under two different judges makes your dog up.

There are one or two "other" breeds competing in Schutzhund in the UK, not many.

However if your dog has the aptitude and you can access a receptive club there is no reason why you cannot put some titles on your dog.

Have you looked at the BAGSD and GSDL- WDG sites to see which of the clubs are nearest to you?

Ask if you can go along and watch, I do not think that any Kelpies have a BH in the UK, so that would be a start.

Good luck.


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## Vicki

ouesi said:


> The biggest thing with SchH is that the dog have the right temperament for the protection part.


Yes, and it's also important to be aware of the drives that you set in motion when you start Schutzhund training. I'm not very interested in that kind of work (tracking and obedience is more my thing), but I let my Mali try it at a camp that her breeder arranged. He wanted to see if she was cut out for that kind of work to be able to avaluate his breeding (apparently she is a natural Schutzhund).

From the start it was obvious that _that_ was what she was bred for. She's normally quite obedient, but after getting a taste of it she was almost out of hand. In her world I was reduced to "that person at the end of the lead stopping me from doing what I do best" and if she could she would have done this: :dita:

The drives that are necessary to succeed with this kind of work makes a dog difficult to handle. In the beginning of the training the dog can be hard to control, but it's of course a matter of training. But you have to be quite commited to the training. I know people with high drive dogs that have started Schutzhund training and then quit (or have been training only sporadically) and those dogs have been very difficult, because strong drives have been awakened but they quit before they had the means to control the drives. In Sweden, where I live, you have to have a license to compete and preferably also for training, which is to ensure that people with this kind of dogs are serious and commited to the training. It's a result of a dangerous dogs- debate that's been going on (just as it has in many countries in recent years) and personally I think it's a good idea.

My dog tried Schutzhund training four times, at that weekend camp, and it took me about four weeks to regain full control over her. And still, she gets a bit hard of hearing at the mere sight of a bite wedge.

But of course, a Kelpie probably doesn't have as strong drives as a Mali and is probably a lot easier to control. But I think it's important to know that what obedience you feel that you have, it probably will go away when you start Schutzhund training.


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## Guest

Vicki said:


> The drives that are necessary to succeed with this kind of work makes a dog difficult to handle.


Im certainly no expert, but I think the above has more to do with HOW the dog is trained than anything.

Good trainers install an off button in addition to more horsepower in the motor


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## tomds87

Many thanks for the replies, some interesting points raised. I was recently told by a police dog handler that a gsd will do anything you ask it, but a Mali will have already done it before you've opened your mouth lol.


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## Vicki

ouesi said:


> Im certainly no expert, but I think the above has more to do with HOW the dog is trained than anything.
> 
> Good trainers install an off button in addition to more horsepower in the motor


To some extent I think so too, but it's not that simple. A dog can be well trained and have an off-button normally, but that doesn't do you any good while dealing with drives this strong. It's not unusual for the same thing to happen to young border collies when they are introduced to sheep- a formerly obedient dog can run after the sheep and don't listen to anything the handles says (or more often, shouts ). I've seen it happen.

But it's of course easier to come to terms with this if the dog is obedient to start with than if it's not; then a slightly disobedient dog may become next to uncontrollable. So it's definitely an advantage to start with an already obedient dog (should be a requirement before accepted for training, in my opinion).

Last summer I was at an IPO demonstration and the impression I got was that they add more drives (although, what they call drive I call stress in many cases) without the off-button and I believe that's quite common in most the different disciplines of bite work (IPO, Schutzhund, different ringsports). So there I can agree that HOW you train is important (personally I don't want to much stress in a dog and I'm careful of what level of energy she has before I reward her etc. to avoid to much stress).


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## Vicki

tomds87 said:


> Many thanks for the replies, some interesting points raised. I was recently told by a police dog handler that a gsd will do anything you ask it, but a Mali will have already done it before you've opened your mouth lol.


Yes, that's a true description of a Mali


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## tomds87

This is probably a really stupid question BUT... In what way would the dog become stressed and why? Also surely training the obedience side of schutzhund would result in the dog being more obedient than unruly, or are the comments above relating to bite work?
Apologies for all the questions, but new to all this and really don't want to mess my dog up!!!!


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## Jenny Olley

tomds87 said:


> This is probably a really stupid question BUT... In what way would the dog become stressed and why? Also surely training the obedience side of schutzhund would result in the dog being more obedient than unruly, or are the comments above relating to bite work?
> Apologies for all the questions, but new to all this and really don't want to mess my dog up!!!!


I assume they are talking about bitework too, a dog which is high in drive is more difficult to control, however as you have got something the dog really wants, when you do control it, it is very powerful.

I have also seen dogs people think are full of drive, when actually they are full of unfocussed hype.

We train for working trials, so the manwork is different from Schutzhund, so the type of dogs taking part tends to be different.


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## Guest

Vicki said:


> To some extent I think so too, but it's not that simple. A dog can be well trained and have an off-button normally, but that doesn't do you any good while dealing with drives this strong. It's not unusual for the same thing to happen to young border collies when they are introduced to sheep- a formerly obedient dog can run after the sheep and don't listen to anything the handles says (or more often, shouts ). I've seen it happen.
> 
> But it's of course easier to come to terms with this if the dog is obedient to start with than if it's not; then a slightly disobedient dog may become next to uncontrollable. So it's definitely an advantage to start with an already obedient dog (should be a requirement before accepted for training, in my opinion).
> 
> Last summer I was at an IPO demonstration and the impression I got was that they add more drives (although, what they call drive I call stress in many cases) without the off-button and I believe that's quite common in most the different disciplines of bite work (IPO, Schutzhund, different ringsports). So there I can agree that HOW you train is important (personally I don't want to much stress in a dog and I'm careful of what level of energy she has before I reward her etc. to avoid to much stress).


IME the term "drive" means different things depending on who's using the term 
If a dog becomes uncontrollable in the face of a reward, be it a bite sleeve, a rabbit, or a herd of sheep, it is my opinion that that is a training issue, not a "drive" issue. Drive to me does not equal out of control, unthinking dog.

I LOVE this Suzanne Clothier article about it, and how those drives need to be addressed both in training and in breeding:
Drive and brakes and steering | Suzanne Clothier
The whole article is worth a read, below is just a part of it:


> Many handlers and breeders who talk about "working" lines are big on having a powerful engine (often referred to as "drive"). Unfortunately, some of these same handlers and breeders miss the important part about brakes and steering.
> 
> What I've often seen as a result of drive without brakes and steering:
> 
> The required skill to train & handle this kind of dog makes this dog unsuitable (and potentially even dangerous) for many handlers & families
> In an attempt to deal with the extreme arousal, handlers may feel the need to resort to using measures such as heavy duty physical corrections, special equipment, e-collars, etc.
> Intense management of the dog as seen in the "take them hostage" approach used by some top trainers who recommend isolation, deprivation, plenty of crate time and limited freedom/play with other dogs and/or people
> Unacceptable, imbalanced behavior is excused as being the expression of "high drive"
> A misguided belief that putting strong behaviors under control will ruin the dog's drive (kernel of truth: punishing instinctive behaviors can really confuse the hell out of a dog, and make him very unwilling to work for you, but punishment is not synonymous with controlling behavior)
> What is unfortunate is that these trainers seem to miss is that the animals with these big engines sometimes succeed in spite of having poor brakes or steering, not because of these unwanted qualites. Consequently, they see a top winning dog and want one "just like that dog!" without understanding that much of what they see may actually get in the way of training and performance, not contribute to success. *These trainers mistake out of control, non-productive, dysfunctional arousal for talent/drive*.


While I have also heard of folks worrying that "awakening" certain drives will lead to a dog not listening, I disagree with that notion based on my own experience with "drivey" dogs. I have a dog with a lot of prey drive. He is allowed to chase and hunt, and it has not created an uncontrollable dog. However, I can absolutely see how it could depending on the training (or lack there of).


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## Kc Mac

> My dog tried Schutzhund training four times, at that weekend camp, and it took me about four weeks to regain full control over her. And still, she gets a bit hard of hearing at the mere sight of a bite wedge.
> 
> But I think it's important to know that what obedience you feel that you have, it probably will go away when you start Schutzhund training.


Sorry but I feel I need to address these comments .

The first paragraph makes schutzhund sound like only bite work which we both know it is not . I would also comment that from that statement, your dog was tested for her bite, not doing schutzhund training. Yes, they often get over excited with bite/sleeve work which is why there is such importance put into the obedience phase of training 

The second paragraph is totally ridiculous  schutzhund is all about obedience  any decent club will not start sleeve/bite work (except puppy ragging) until a decent level of obedience is achieved . The club I attended didn't even do bite work every week as they said it was more important to work on the other phases 

OP

I trained my rescue Staffordshire Bull Terrier with a schutzhund club and he came on amazingly . Other than finding difficulty holding the correct heelwork position, he surprised everyone with his abilities and drive . He even excelled at bite work - he had a correct and solid straight bite  The downside was a few people did not welcome his breed and as I was training to better ourselves and improve our relationship and have fun, I swapped schutzhund for pet obedience, agility and flyball where we are welcomed 

I now also have a German Shepherd who I am attending Working Trials with 

I personally prefer WT as I find it much more fun, relaxed and friendly . However I loved the SchH training but it was too slow and precise for Buddy, especially the tracking phase  

I would encourage you to go and visit a few schH and WT clubs so you can see first hand how they work and which would suit you and your dog better 

Good Luck


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## tomds87

Thanks for all the advice people. I am finding this post very informative. For anyone that's interested I have started a blog called Kane the Kelpie. I have done the blog purely for motivation purposes and also so that I can monitor our progress. I am including what I am doing with my dog, be it right or wrong, in the view that I can learn things and also so that other people can offer advice. 
You can view the blog from the following link, let me know what you think!!
Kane the Kelpie


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## smokeybear

Speed is not an issue with Schutzhund tracking (although many people believe it is) what IS required is consistency of speed.

You can do both sports (Schutzhund and WT) successfully with the same dog with no problems.


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## Moobli

I started working trials training a couple of months back with my working line GSD and we are both really enjoying it. 

Like you, I was also interested in IPO but unfortunately all the clubs are too far from me to make attending viable for us. 

Working trials suits us and, fingers crossed, we might even be ready to enter our first competition next April (eeek!).

I agree with the earlier poster, go along to both schutzhund and working trials clubs and see which you fancy.

As your dog is a kelpie, have you considered training him to work sheep?


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## tomds87

I'm not sure id trust him with a sheep lol!


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