# Fox attacks baby



## dogandbone (Apr 21, 2010)

It was in the news this morning, a fox attacking a 4 week old baby in south east London. That really is shocking, although thankfully very rare.
Fox Bites Off Baby's Finger In Cot Attack

What amazes me though is how the fox gained entry to the house???? Surely it's asking for trouble leaving the back door open.
I know this is a very contentious issue, and don't get me wrong, I really feel sorry for the baby as what happened was dreadful beyond belief, but in defence of foxes I think they are just doing what comes natural, looking for food. To them there is no difference between a small baby and a coup full of chickens. The big problem is the ever growing human population and consequent need for towns to get bigger so they encroach on the fox's natural habitat, driving them into urban areas. They don't have a choice.
It's true, foxes do get used to humans, for the last six months I have been feeding a group of foxes and one of them eats virtually out of my hand.
Understandably, not everyone wants to feed foxes but then they must take responsible measures not to leave waste bags lying around. 
There's now talk of a culling programme for foxes, which I find would be rather drastic, all you need is commonsense.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Just heard about this on the news. I too question why the fox could/did gain entry. Who has their doors/windows open in this cold weather with a new baby in the house? Strange also how this happened on the 6th, 4 days ago but has only now been reported.*


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

watching sky news they showed an item about the problem of urban foxes getting into homes yet in the clip a bowl left on the floor with a raw chicken leg in it was clearly shown ..

People will demonise the animal whilst all the time ignoring the fact that they are them selves the problem.

The sheer amount of food rubbish left on city streets is appaling and bound to attract aniamls of all kinds looking for an easy meal. 
If food rubbish were kept to a minimum and people stopped feeding deliberatly then many foxes would return to natural habitats/life ..

People tell me we are overrun with foxes here yet Ive never seen one in town part of that might be due to strict rubbish controls wheelie bins and containers for commercial premises.

In screaming for culls and blood the people are showing what I call the chimp behaviour.If its scary or you dont understand it hit it with a stick .....

eerrrr tell me again how far advanced we are?????


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

It's terribly distressing for the parents. Baby won't remember it at least thats some comfort.

My place is like Fort Knox at night, back door and front door both locked, nothing is getting in here unless its let in.


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## HoneyFern (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't believe this story, as Janice said, you wouldn't leave your door open in his weather and the fact it's only just been reported is a bit strange.

I have foxes come into my garden and I go out to shoo them off with my four month old baby in my arms, when I tell people this they think I'm asking for something to happen. 

Articles like this are scaremongering.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

My back door is currently open - it's really mild down south so it's nice to air the house.
In fact my door is often open well into the evening -and yes we always had the kitchen window open even in winter and even when the kids were new born - I hate a stuffy house.

Foxes do better in Urban situations (shorter life spans but more prolific), people hand feeding them encouraging them up close to the back door etc are making them no longer scared of humans.
There is rubbish everywhere for them to eat.
I've been walking the dogs and a fox has stayed sat just inches away from us not batting an eyelid as we walked past (dogs were going mad for the fox) 
I love foxes I think they are amazing and resourceful animals
My Uncle and Son run a farm and they say the number of foxes in the rural areas seem to of dropped, they've never had problems with foxes and my Uncle is over 80 now, he has a live and let live attitude and is an active conservationist.

I don't know how 'true' this story is
But it is awful and traumatic for any family to go through


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

According to the artical I read the door was broken and would not shut properly and they were waiting for the council to repair it.

I don't encourage foxes in my garden, we had one that was full of mange and I did not want Holly to pick it up,the vet said it was possible so I try to play it safe.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

My back door is currently open, snow is falling, the dogs can go in and out while I get on with some work. Nice to see people jump onto the 'they must be lying' bandwagon because foxes can't *possibly* attack anything! That's not at all what they do?!!!


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't understand how the fox could have got in ?! , other countries seem to be able to live in proximity to much more dangerous wildlife than we have in this country , as long as people have a healthy respect for wild animals it is possible to live safely without demonising them .. , awful for the poor baby but the world is full of risks and accidents waiting to happen, it is a wild animal at the end of the day...it was proberbly just sneeking around looking for food and the baby probably startled it and it reacted as any wild animal would ...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My back door is currently open, snow is falling, the dogs can go in and out while I get on with some work. Nice to see people jump onto the 'they must be lying' bandwagon because foxes can't *possibly* attack anything! That's not at all what they do?!!!


*I do question the story, but then that's me. So this fox has found its way upstairs and the parent didn't hear anything until it was too late. As for doors being open, i questioned that, because this child is only 4 weeks old. And i'm in the south and its bloody freezing here today.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I do question the story, but then that's me. So this fox has found its way upstairs and the parent didn't hear anything until it was too late. As for doors being open, i questioned that, because this child is only 4 weeks old. And i'm in the south and its bloody freezing here today.*


So because it didn't happen in your house, it can't be true? If, as someone else has posted, the door doesn't shut properly, the parents didn't really have much choice. I have yet to come across a fox that rings door bells or announces they are there.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I do question the story, but then that's me. So this fox has found its way upstairs and the parent didn't hear anything until it was too late. As for doors being open, i questioned that, because this child is only 4 weeks old. And i'm in the south and its bloody freezing here today.*


I think it's good to question any news story - But if it's true I wouldn't expect to hear a fox, they are after all expert and silent hunters/scavengers.
The way my house the back door opens into the kitchen which has 2 doors one into the lounge/dinner and the other into the hall way with direct access to the stairs - if I didn't have the dogs it would be easy for something to enter and go straight upstairs without me seeing.


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't think the parents are lieing , accidents happen , wild animals are dangerous , I just don't see the point in demonising a wild animal and trying to make it seem like they sneak into peoples homes looking for babies to eat...

although at 4 weeks old my babies had never even been in their cots and were firmly attached to me 24/7  , babies at that age are not supposed to sleep in a room on their own


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I was brought up in a Council house and yes the Clerk of Works as it used to be called did take a while to deal with repairs. My parents and other neighbours used to deal with minor problems like broken windows, door locks themselves. If we needed a new door then we would have to wait like everyone else but our house was always secure.

The door must have been open during the night, if I couldn't afford door furnishings I would have blocked the door with an item of furniture or something because I wouldn't feel safe against burglars never mind wildlife and the house must have been extremely cold too.

I was skeptical about the fox attack back in 2010, I have to admit, but living here we appear to be over run with foxes. I have noticed they are much bolder. We can get quite close to them just a few feet before they slink off (not run) and even I have been concerned as to whether they will run or attack.

As they have a look of a dog it is tempting to beckon them to touch their lush fur but they are a wild unpredictable animal and we shouldn't forget that.

However one of our neighbours feeds them every night. Personally I don't have a problem with this, as we have a pet rabbit, so while ever the foxes bellies are full they hopefully will not search for food in our garden.

I think people have to start using some common sense. The urban Fox has been living with us for as long as I can remember but we never saw him. David Attenborough's documentary "The Urban Fox" in 1978 brought this to light. They are getting bolder and we have to take appropriate precautions.

We have meat in bowls on the floor for our pets but we ensure no other animal can get into our house and that our pets can't get out without being supervised. 

The mother of the young baby should have contacted her MP to get the Council to repair her door. The door was a security and health risk for her and her young family (I'm thinking of the cold alone, as it is, this baby is scarred for life - awful, absolutely dreadful).


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2013)

Ugh...same old story...




Yet again media hysteria... A fox bites a child (very questionable IMO, wonder if the family had a dog hmmmmmm. Foxes are scavengers so why creep past a kitchen full of food to go upstairs hmmmmmm) so now lets all kill all the urban foxes 


If people would stop feeding urban foxes then they won't be as tame....If people didn't feed them they wouldn't need to hang around....


Just my thoughts of course


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My back door is currently open, snow is falling, the dogs can go in and out while I get on with some work. Nice to see people jump onto the 'they must be lying' bandwagon because foxes can't *possibly* attack anything! That's not at all what they do?!!!


I don't think people are jumping on the "band waggon", but if the door had been repaired and shut properly this wouldn't have happened. I couldn't allow my external doors to be open 24/7, I don't like a stuffy house either but my door is closed and locked through the night. The Council is responsible for the repair of the door but a mother is responsible for the care and welfare of her new born child. Putting aside the fox attack how warm was that baby in house with the external door open.

Any animal even a cat could have got into the house and laid on the baby's face for warmth. This has happened in the past hence the need for pram cat nets later renamed pram fly nets.

I don't see a problem with putting a baby to bed in a room of its own. I didn't do that myself because I'm lazy my baby's cot was at the side of our bed - swing my legs out of bed drop the cot side see to baby, put him down and swing back into bed. I didn't fancy walking round the first floor to feed and change baby through the night.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

So they left the door unlocked.Thats sound about right to sell your story to the newspapers. How did this fox get the baby out of his cot while holding the baby. Also Bromley council are now to blame...Why because they had not fixed the door. I could not go to bed with a door that could let anyone in let alone a fox. Sorry but I don't get this story. If they cull the foxes then we will have more rats going in our rubbish.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Well if I had a child and a fox came into my house and bit them, I would blame myself! No way would I blame the fox. It would be my responsibility to make sure that my house was secure and that my child was safe! If my dog bit my child it would be my fault, it would also be my fault if a fox bit my child. 

It's always the mean old foxes fault!


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

The attack was during the afternoon school run so why would the doors and windows be locked.
Mine are not locked untill I go to bed, my back door is left open when I am cooking because it gets so hot in there, anything could slip in when I an not looking, a nieghbours cat has before now.
Holly is not allowed in there when I am cooking so did not see it, if a cat can slip in so can a fox


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Going off track but I am the only forum member who doesn't always shut/lock their doors?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

According to reports, the number of foxes in the country is dropping, but the number of urban foxes is rising.
Now why should this be?
Simply because idiots lure them with food waste in badly closed bins, or simply thrown out, because other idiots actually lure them into gardens by FEEDING them...

If you lure wild predators into urban areas and get them used to people, accidents WILL happen. Wildlife shoudl be encouraged to stay out in the wild, and the only way we can do that is by not providing food sources where we do not want them to go, NOT by enticing them in and subesquently culling them when we percieve them as a menace.

There should be a HUGE fine on throwing out food on the streets and feeding or luring wild predators. And the council should provide waste collection bins for food waste that cannot be opened or entered by predators, so people would have no excuse to leave food waste lying around. If there is no food for them to be found, they will not come in search for it and will go elsewhere, where they WILL find food.

We happen to share this planet with all manner of fauna and flora, so WE, being the ones able to see the implications, should be the ones to make sure we can live alongside each other without provoking 'unacceptable' behaviour from wildlife.
It is US who are behaving in an unacceptable manner by - through neglect and arrogance - creating an environment that lures wildlife into 'our' space.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Fleur said:


> Going off track but I am the only forum member who doesn't always shut/lock their doors?


*My back/ patio door is locked at all times unless i'm in the kitchen.*


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Fleur said:


> Going off track but I am the only forum member who doesn't always shut/lock their doors?


No you are not! I have nearly always got my back door open.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

3dogs2cats said:


> No you are not! I have nearly always got my back door open.


Me too........


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Firedog said:


> Me too........


Add me to the list as well


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

Bisbow said:


> According to the artical I read the door was broken and would not shut properly and they were waiting for the council to repair it.


Is it cynical of me to translate that as "we want some compensation"?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Foxes can get through cat flaps....

and are hunter killers, not cute little red things....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Its the 1st line I find hard to swallow...



> A fox dragged a one-month-old baby from his cot and mauled his hand, biting off one finger, it has been reported.


Ive not seen a cot that a fox could drag a baby out of...they are usually dropsides


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Its the 1st line I find hard to swallow...
> 
> Ive not seen a cot that a fox could drag a baby out of...they are usually dropsides


The Baby could of been in a moses basket or crib - both much shallower than a cot.
Or most modern cots have an adjustable base and you would set it higher for a small baby so in effect the sides aren't as tall. You then drop the base as the baby learns to roll etc .


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *My back/ patio door is locked at all times unless i'm in the kitchen.*


If the back door is open while we are upstairs (we only have a garage and garden room on the ground floor, the living room is upstairs), it is because we have forgotten to close it. I only leave it open when we are in the garden or garden room, and will normally keep the doors closed and locked, even though we have no back entrance through the garden, any burglar would have to climb our fence as well as the neighbours'.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

negative creep said:


> Is it cynical of me to translate that as "we want some compensation"?


Had not thought of that, could be possible


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

sskmick said:


> I don't think people are jumping on the "band waggon", but if the door had been repaired and shut properly this wouldn't have happened. I couldn't allow my external doors to be open 24/7, I don't like a stuffy house either but my door is closed and locked through the night. The Council is responsible for the repair of the door but a mother is responsible for the care and welfare of her new born child. Putting aside the fox attack how warm was that baby in house with the external door open.
> 
> *Any animal even a cat could have got into the house and laid on the baby's face for warmth. This has happened in the past hence the need for pram cat nets later renamed pram fly nets.*
> 
> I don't see a problem with putting a baby to bed in a room of its own. I didn't do that myself because I'm lazy my baby's cot was at the side of our bed - swing my legs out of bed drop the cot side see to baby, put him down and swing back into bed. I didn't fancy walking round the first floor to feed and change baby through the night.


the bit in bold, you'll be telling me cats are trying to steal your breath at night by lying on your chest :lol: Ive had 2 cats around my son as a baby, neother wanted anything to do with him. Cats can get the blame when SIDS is the culprit, very sad.

A fox can get in cat flaps as someone has said and I highly doubt you would hear one sneaking in. They will attack and kill smaller anials deemed prey so yes the fox could have attacked the child.
My worry is why a 4 week old was unsupervised when even guidelines suggest a minimum of 6mths old to reduce the risk of SIDS.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I agree you should never leave a child alone in the house, but to have it in the same room at all times sounds a bit over the top to me. How will you ever supervise a child 24/7 for 6 months?????

That is downright impossible and a little ridiculous.
Even if you keep it in the same room with you at all times, it will still not be supervised all that time, as you need to sleep, you need to use the bathroom, you need to answer the door........


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> I agree you should never leave a child alone in the house, but to have it in the same room at all times sounds a bit over the top to me. How will you ever supervise a child 24/7 for 6 months?????
> 
> That is downright impossible and a little ridiculous.
> Even if you keep it in the same room with you at all times, it will still not be supervised all that time, as you need to sleep, you need to use the bathroom, you need to answer the door........


the guidelines are for sleeping specifically to reduce the risk of SIDS (or cot death) baby should sleep in the same room as parents for at least the first six months , i had mine in the bed with me from birth as it was easier and some studies have shown it helps regulate babies breathing and temperature , also makes breastfeeding easier  i used to take mine with me to the loo ect i had a bouncy chair thingy in the bathroom and i just popped them in a sling if i needed to do jobs ect , mine used to scream if i put them down for the first few months  which to be fair is a good survival instinct in my opinion babies know they need mum to keep them safe 

i cant think of any other mammal that would leave its new-born offspring , especially other primates who's babies hang onto moms tummy for at least a few months


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Is it cynical of me to translate that as "we want some compensation"?
> Had not thought of that, could be possible


From whom? I don't think there is an urban foxes guild with a third party insurance policy in force.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> I agree you should never leave a child alone in the house, but to have it in the same room at all times sounds a bit over the top to me. How will you ever supervise a child 24/7 for 6 months?????
> 
> That is downright impossible and a little ridiculous.
> Even if you keep it in the same room with you at all times, it will still not be supervised all that time, as you need to sleep, you need to use the bathroom, you need to answer the door........


Many parents practice babywearing. I had twins and rigged something up where I could wear both babies at the same time  Not much you can't do with a baby attached, much as pregnant women learn to maneuver around their bellies, you learn to maneuver around the baby.

I grew up in a country where babies are routinely worn attached to the mom even after the child has started toddling. It's not unusual at all in many cultures, and certainly not impossible!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Starlite said:


> the bit in bold, you'll be telling me cats are trying to steal your breath at night by lying on your chest :lol: Ive had 2 cats around my son as a baby, neother wanted anything to do with him. Cats can get the blame when SIDS is the culprit, very sad.
> 
> A fox can get in cat flaps as someone has said and I highly doubt you would hear one sneaking in. They will attack and kill smaller anials deemed prey so yes the fox could have attacked the child.
> My worry is why a 4 week old was unsupervised when even guidelines suggest a minimum of 6mths old to reduce the risk of SIDS.


Sleeping cat suffocates baby - Telegraph

A cat suffocating a baby could happen too, about as likely and often as a fox attacking a baby. I've found 3 reports!!!
Babies are much more likely to be killed by their own parents in accidents


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

London: Fox drags 3-week-old baby out of cot, bites off his finger - World - IBNLive

*Another version of this story.*
"A fox has torn a four-week-old baby boy's finger off after dragging him out of his cot in what is believed to be the worst attack of its kind in Britain. The baby was attacked and injured by a fox in his home in Bromley in south-east London on February 6, the Metropolitan Police said.
The child's mother, in the next room, heard a piercing scream then a heavy thud as the four-week-old boy was flung to the floor by the fox. "


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> I agree you should never leave a child alone in the house, but to have it in the same room at all times sounds a bit over the top to me. How will you ever supervise a child 24/7 for 6 months?????
> 
> That is downright impossible and a little ridiculous.
> Even if you keep it in the same room with you at all times, it will still not be supervised all that time, as you need to sleep, you need to use the bathroom, you need to answer the door........


very easily actually. Have you ever co slept with a baby? You dont shut off properly, a wee bit of you is still on alert.



ouesi said:


> Many parents practice babywearing. I had twins and rigged something up where I could wear both babies at the same time  Not much you can't do with a baby attached, much as pregnant women learn to maneuver around their bellies, you learn to maneuver around the baby.
> 
> I grew up in a country where babies are routinely worn attached to the mom even after the child has started toddling. It's not unusual at all in many cultures, and certainly not impossible!


Im still babywearing at almost 2yrs, God Bless my Ergo!  I love attatchment parenting, ive skipped so many of the "normal" problems though it



rona said:


> Sleeping cat suffocates baby - Telegraph
> 
> A cat suffocating a baby could happen too, about as likely and often as a fox attacking a baby. I've found 3 reports!!!
> Babies are much more likely to be killed by their own parents in accidents


You'll note I said it CAN happen, but SIDS is more often the cause. If you look at the dates on the "attacks", you will see how truly rare it is


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

hmmmm SIDS will happen if you are in the room with the baby or not (*sudden* infant death syndrome!!), ask my friend her son died right beside her in bed x

mine were both 6 weeks when they left the room, I know I shall be smited by the yogurt knitters out there, and from 12 weeks both slept 8 hrs a night and at 6 mths were hitting 10-12 x but there was no way an animal could *access* their rooms x I do wonder how the fox was able to get anywhere near the infant, I know they are clever but window and door opening hmmmmm x


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2013)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> hmmmm SIDS will happen if you are in the room with the baby or not (*sudden* infant death syndrome!!), ask my friend her son died right beside her in bed x
> 
> mine were both 6 weeks when they left the room, I know I shall be smited by the yogurt knitters out there, and from 12 weeks both slept 8 hrs a night and at 6 mths were hitting 10-12 x but there was no way an animal could *access* their rooms x I do wonder how the fox was able to get anywhere near the infant, I know they are clever but window and door opening hmmmmm x


What's a yogurt knitter?


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

ouesi said:


> What's a yogurt knitter?


sorry a puerile joke I have with my mindees parents, round here its the competition mothers, who can knit a nappy quicker than the next, whos child can count in Swahili, whos 6mth old has just conquered Everest, but actually sits in Starbucks whilst their kids run amok


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> hmmmm SIDS will happen if you are in the room with the baby or not (*sudden* infant death syndrome!!), ask my friend her son died right beside her in bed x
> 
> mine were both 6 weeks when they left the room, I know I shall be smited by the yogurt knitters out there, and from 12 weeks both slept 8 hrs a night and at 6 mths were hitting 10-12 x but there was no way an animal could *access* their rooms x I do wonder how the fox was able to get anywhere near the infant, I know they are clever but window and door opening hmmmmm x


Actually the incedence of SIDS is increased when the baby is in a different room from mum because they "forget" to breathe. If they are in with mum their breathing starts syncing with yours so they dont "forget" half as much  Its not the cure for SIDS but does help.
I also had an Angelcare monitor mat which let off an alarm if Anton stopped breathing (never did thank God) as he was a Neonatal baby. This was when he started wanting his own space and me and OH were waking him up. Sad moment going into his own room


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> hmmmm SIDS will happen if you are in the room with the baby or not (*sudden* infant death syndrome!!), ask my friend her son died right beside her in bed x
> 
> mine were both 6 weeks when they left the room, I know I shall be smited by the yogurt knitters out there, and from 12 weeks both slept 8 hrs a night and at 6 mths were hitting 10-12 x but there was no way an animal could *access* their rooms x I do wonder how the fox was able to get anywhere near the infant, I know they are clever but window and door opening hmmmmm x


it can happen with you in the room yes but statistically it reduces the risk is all . also you are more likely to carry on breastfeeding for longer if baby sleeps in the same room/bed (statistically of course , im sure there are exceptions )

and :lol: at yogurt knitters , ateotd I just do what works as im sure you did 
I just think its a shame moms feel they've failed in some way if their baby dosent sleep 7-7 independently at a young age .... my kids have both moved out of my bed by about two and a half and im fine with that means I didn't have to get out of bed when they woke up


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

hippymama said:


> it can happen with you in the room yes but statistically it reduces the risk is all . also you are more likely to carry on breastfeeding for longer if baby sleeps in the same room/bed (statistically of course , im sure there are exceptions )
> 
> and :lol: at yogurt knitters , ateotd I just do what works as im sure you did
> I just think its a shame moms feel they've failed in some way if their baby dosent sleep 7-7 independently at a young age .... my kids have both moved out of my bed by about two and a half and im fine with that means I didn't have to get out of bed when they woke up


lol Anton never slept through till 2 days after his first birthday, he is a wired wee guy! 
No idea why I want to do it all again 

I was in my mums bed till 4yrs old as well, did me no damage and Im a big girl now


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

Starlite said:


> lol Anton never slept through till 2 days after his first birthday, he is a wired wee guy!
> No idea why I want to do it all again


my 2 and a half year old _nearly_ sleeps through Singing:  in my defence she starts the night in her own bed , she's getting there though , she's only stopped feeding in the last few months , cant belive how fast they grow up ...


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2013)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> sorry a puerile joke I have with my mindees parents, round here its the competition mothers, who can knit a nappy quicker than the next, whos child can count in Swahili, whos 6mth old has just conquered Everest, but actually sits in Starbucks whilst their kids run amok


Oh... gotcha. Kind of like you being proud that your child slept 8 hours at 12 weeks? 

I'm with hippymamma we all do what works


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Does anyone know how much weight a fox can lift? Just curious.*


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm sorry, but I'm with the "fox cull" people. Urban and rural foxes can be a real problem, and a real menace.

We back onto farm land and the number of new born lambs that have been savaged is unbelievable. We need to keep our chickens in roofed runs (albeit on a grand scale) to keep our loved poultry pets safe.

A neighbour of ours culls foxes for the farmer... In the past 12 months he's culled (shooting not hunting) over 200  The largest number ever, as the problem is steadily rising.

People don't think twice about culling rats (which domesticated make intelligent and loving pets) yet true vermin like foxes get away with it.

OK, I may have a harsher view in terms of my hens as pets, but to me foxes are becoming more and more of a menace and this needs addressing.

(would like to add whilst I am in favour of culling, I am in NO MEANS in favour f fox hunting which I think is cruel and barbaric)


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Does anyone know how much weight a fox can lift? Just curious.*


Depends on it's age, and health I would guess Janice.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> Depends on it's age, and health I would guess Janice.


when you think the largest fox shot so far has been 26lbs  . . .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Starlite said:


> when you think the largest fox shot so far has been 26lbs  . . .


*
The largest so far was 38lbs 1oz in Scotland.
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17270249

Most are no bigger than your average domestic cat..Which i why i can't see a fox flinging a child.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

The fox website: one site with all the answers about foxes


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## CanIgoHome (Oct 25, 2008)

I don't live to far from Bromley and the foxes round here I think is getting to be a problem I live next to 2 school and a few takeaways too
The foxes are bold round here out in daylight hours and I have to protect my cats and a friends cats from the foxes round here I've watch the foxes try to tag team  one of my cats and had to screen at the ****ing things :mad2:
and the foxes round here are rough


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> The largest so far was 38lbs 1oz in Scotland.
> "http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17270249
> 
> Most are no bigger than your average domestic cat..Which i why i can't see a fox flinging a child.*


sorry Janice but foxes are bigger than domestic cats ....

forget the word "flinging" that's just media sensationalism...

If they are hungry enough , they will take whatever they can get ...

I'm not a fox hater by any means ... but they are wild and we humans should take a step back , from thinking we can treat them as a domestic pet...


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Another pro-fox person here.

I can honestly say I've only ever seen 1 fox....it was running across a road going into a city. I live in the country side, I lived in the city for many years and was raised in the country side. I've never seen a fox out here, I've never seen a badger.....ever. 

I could not rest easy with my door unlocked or not properly fitted. I don't let the dogs out in my secure garden at night without me or my husband being there as I have no doubt there are foxes, not many, I would hate for my dogs to become a food source for a hungry fox. I wouldn't blame the fox, I would certainly blame myself if I left my dogs unattended or didn't close my door and allowed wild animals the chance to enter my home or worse, a thief or criminal to enter my home through an unlocked or unsecured door.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

tincan said:


> sorry Janice but foxes are bigger than domestic cats ....
> 
> forget the word "flinging" that's just media sensalisation ...
> 
> ...


*A the moment i can't find the page that i got the bit about cats., but i will look again in the morning.
However i did find this, 
How big is a fox?*

Red foxes are an optical illusion: they seem dramatically bigger when further away. These figures from the National Audubon Society Field Guide show just how tiny they really are:

Weight: 3.6 - 6.8kg (7 - 15lb)

Height: 38 - 41cm (15 - 16in)

Length: 90 - 103cm (35 - 41in)

British foxes are slightly shorter and heavier than their North American cousins.
The Sitting Fox


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

Call me a sceptic but I don't believe this story. Feel very sorry for the baby but don't believe a fox did it.

Wonder if the family had a pet dog, or one visiting.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

if its true its a freak occurance but must be very upsetting for the poor mother!

I do find the story odd.. we have a lot of urban foxes where I live and where I went to uni in London, and even if they were bold enough to come into the house, she had to fight it/kick it to get it off the baby??? now that is one very very brave fox. Whenever I have seen a fox savenging it has seen me quickly and legged it when I got closer... its never stuck to the bin long enough for me to get so close I could kick it.

potentially a very very brave fox...

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

dogandbone said:


> It's true, foxes do get used to humans, *for the last six months I have been feeding a group of foxes and one of them eats virtually out of my hand.*
> Understandably, not everyone wants to feed foxes but then they must take responsible measures not to leave waste bags lying around.
> There's now talk of a culling programme for foxes, which I find would be rather drastic, all you need is commonsense.





shetlandlover said:


> Another pro-fox person here.
> 
> I can honestly say I've only ever seen 1 fox....it was running across a road going into a city. I live in the country side, I lived in the city for many years and was raised in the country side. I've never seen a fox out here, I've never seen a badger.....ever.


I'm sorry OP, but I think feeding foxes is adding to the problem in urban areas.

I live in the country like shetlandlover and the only fox I've seen in two and a half years was very keen to get away from me. Foxes here are wary of humans, so far less likely to approach buildings, let alone enter one. I like foxes (despite keeping chickens), but they are less likely to cause any problems if they retain their natural fear of humans.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

From what I hear on the radio people are going stupid wanting all foxes killed,this to me is like the hate built up for staffies but for a wild animal.People on the radio are making it sound as if foxes are prowling around attacking on sight,we have lived here for 15 years built up area and behind my fence are a family of foxes never had any trouble with them even though I have many animals :rolleyes5:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suewhite said:


> From what I hear on the radio people are going stupid wanting all foxes killed,this to me is like the hate built up for staffies but for a wild animal.People on the radio are making it sound as if foxes are prowling around attacking on sight,we have lived here for 15 years built up area and behind my fence are a family of foxes never had any trouble with them even though I have many animals :rolleyes5:


*As i've said before sue, my friend has cats so do her neighbours. And one also has chickens. Foxes visit her garden every day and she has never had a problem.*


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

As Christ Packham said on the Beeb this am, What can you expect, when you build cities on their countryside.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

I still find it odd how the fox gained access to the child!!

"The attack happened after the fox entered the house through an open back door, which was apparently awaiting repair by the council." 

righty-o door open in the middle of winter ? was the child kept in the kitchen then ? very very odd, I know they will attack cats, small dogs and chooks and the ilk, but these are accessible prey to a degree x 

I have my own opinion on foxes, but whether I like them or not, I just cant see this - the twins that were bitten was during the summer - so they had a better chance of access x


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Not really about this story, but I think it was Jan questioning if a fox could pick up a baby. 
They can carry a goose, so a small baby shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Also.While looking for pictures of a fox carrying a goose, I came across this video that shows a fox burying excess food for consumption later 

Fox and Geese.MOV - YouTube

Just for those that think foxes just kill for fun


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## HoneyFern (Aug 27, 2009)

I have my bunnies in the garden and only see foxes about once a week, i'd rather they weren't in my garden but i don't want them dead. Like I said before, when I shoo them off I take my 4mth old as I can't leave her alone and I'm not the slightest bit worried they're going to come at us, if anything they're gone as soon as they hear me coming. 

I used to live in London, my family still do and while the foxes are bolder there they're still not a threat, my mum has five cats and two dogs and they're not bothered by each other, there's even a den at the bottom of the garden.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

havoc said:


> From whom? I don't think there is an urban foxes guild with a third party insurance policy in force.


no but the council didnt mend the door and have insurance....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I read that 6500 attacks are reported by dogs each year and almost none by foxes

I love em, we have one we see regular, i think there were cubs too judging by the 3 pairs of eyes reflecting at me one night but they are hunter killers, they take their chances and we take ours


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Urban foxes are getting braver in order to survive... had one last year come into the garden, it was caught by our Akita bitch... i don't think it will ever return... if it actually survived.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Lets get some Scrips...noy humane but canine detterants!!!



Rats etc..can also bite a baby...warning for allmums not to leave babies asleep in the garden or with door open...

Best just not to leave rubbish around!!
and think that foxes kill many rats and mice..not vrery welcome in our households!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Lets get some Scrips...noy humane but canine detterants!!!



Rats etc..can also bite a baby...warning for allmums not to leave babies asleep in the garden or with door open...

Best just not to leave rubbish around!!
and think that foxes kill many rats and mice..not very welcome in our households!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

People are soooo stupid.
On the one hand they want to live in a countryside environment and looooooove to see the wildlife in their own back yard, but the moment wildlife acts like the wild animals they are, we are shocked and want them killed.

People should learn to live alongside wild animals in a responsible way:
do NOT get them used to humans, if you see wildlife too close to houses, do not encourage them, but chase them away. Not just the predators, but their prey, too. Wildlife should perceive humans as a threat. If prey stays in the wild, so will the predator.

Do not leave food where they can get at it, and conceal the scent of food waste as well as possible. If you want to leave your door open in an area with predators, use a screen door, or fence off your garden.

If you have chicks or rabbits, make their environment safe from predators as best you can. Not just their cage or run, but preferably the entire garden, so the predator cannot even get close.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Is the Daily Fail pro repealing the foxhunting ban? I'm sure I read somewhere they were.
It's almost as if our Esteemed Leaders have some sort of agenda......


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Is the Daily Fail pro repealing the foxhunting ban? I'm sure I read somewhere they were.
> It's almost as if our Esteemed Leaders have some sort of agenda......


You know, this occurred to me, too....
There is a call to allow fox hunting again, and this would be just the kind of leverage they need to have their way.

Could be some conspiracy by pro-hunting groups, who offered the alleged victims a chance to claim a tidy sum from the council in the process....


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

I have a fox near me that has become less scared of humans. why you ask? because neighbours keep feeding him! it has now got to the stage where he relies on them for food so is very skinny and actually sits waiting to be fed. On a fair few occasions it has even lead to him attempting to get into my rabbit enclosures.

If humans stopped feeding them and also stopped building in places where it pushes them out of their homes we wouldnt have such problems.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Is the Daily Fail pro repealing the foxhunting ban? I'm sure I read somewhere they were.
> It's almost as if our Esteemed Leaders have some sort of agenda......


I was thinking this, work up this hate of foxes then slide in a lift on the hunting ban


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

suewhite said:


> I was thinking this, work up this hate of foxes then slide in a lift on the hunting ban


I smelled that RAT too...

(oops, sorry rat owners...)

as todoors! for pit sake..tillthey are repaired one can put on some latch?..or just a chair against them?...silly people really..one does not leave door ajar with a baby!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I want to know why people are calling for fox hunting to be allowed again and to kill them, after one or two extremely rare freak occurrences (which I personally don't believe anyway), yet they haven't banned those downright dangerous SBT devil dogs which actually tear little kids apart on a regular basis, not just bite their hands. Far more dangerous, far more out of control, far more of a problem that needs getting rid of, than the odd fox.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh jeebus, here we go


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)




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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)




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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I want to know why people are calling for fox hunting to be allowed again and to kill them, after one or two extremely rare freak occurrences (which I personally don't believe anyway), yet they haven't banned those downright dangerous SBT devil dogs which actually tear little kids apart on a regular basis, not just bite their hands. Far more dangerous, far more out of control, far more of a problem that needs getting rid of, than the odd fox.


If I were you I'd be more concerned about the number of pf members that are about to tear you apart


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


>


can i share your popcorn with u?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I want to know why people are calling for fox hunting to be allowed again and to kill them, after one or two extremely rare freak occurrences (which I personally don't believe anyway), yet they haven't banned those downright dangerous SBT devil dogs which actually tear little kids apart on a regular basis, not just bite their hands. Far more dangerous, far more out of control, far more of a problem that needs getting rid of, than the odd fox.


Goodness!! what you have just said about SBT is what people are now saying about foxes and neither is true in my opinion.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

MrRustyRead said:


> can i share your popcorn with u?


Help yourself, more on the go, this could get messy :sosp:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

I cant bare foxes tbh. 

I do believe the story is true...i dont think we should all live with our windows and doors closed in fear of foxes entering the house..tis a tad dramatic! 

If my child was bitten by a rat inside the house i would call pest control..same goes for a fox..i would make sure it was caught and gotten rid of.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I cant bare foxes tbh.
> 
> I do believe the story is true...i dont think we should all live with our windows and doors closed in fear of foxes entering the house..tis a tad dramatic!
> 
> If my child was bitten by a rat inside the house i would call pest control..same goes for a fox..i would make sure it was caught and gotten rid of.


These animals are attracted by our own wasteful lifestyles HB. I'm sure you don't leave anything lying around that would entice such creatures in.
If people as a whole stopped leaving temptation lying around these animals would not be tempted.
Fox's as a rule do not attack people.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I want to know why people are calling for fox hunting to be allowed again and to kill them, after one or two extremely rare freak occurrences (which I personally don't believe anyway), yet they haven't banned those downright dangerous SBT devil dogs which actually tear little kids apart on a regular basis, not just bite their hands. Far more dangerous, far more out of control, far more of a problem that needs getting rid of, than the odd fox.


And what, pray tell us, has this got to do with the subject at hand?

Or is this a somewhat feeble attempt at sarcasm?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

suewhite said:


> Goodness!! what you have just said about SBT is what people are now saying about foxes and neither is true in my opinion.


Well the only truth in the problem Sue is the human race. We breed the sbt and some deliberately raise or breed them to be nasty. Foxes are being driven into our gardens because we leave food rubbish lying around and their homes are being taken away by our constant redevelopment of countryside.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

By far the biggest threat to a child's life or wellbeing comes from its own family, rather than from any animal, wild or domesticated.

Let's get rid of parents, hunt the baby-killing vermin!


FFS, this thread took a totally demented turn with that one post.
:laugh:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> If I were you I'd be more concerned about the number of pf members that are about to tear you apart


Yesh! Just liek wun ov them vishuz devul dogz bul teriors! Wuf wuf!



harley bear said:


> *I cant bare foxes tbh*.
> 
> I do believe the story is true...i dont think we should all live with our windows and doors closed in fear of foxes entering the house..tis a tad dramatic!
> 
> If my child was bitten by a rat inside the house i would call pest control..same goes for a fox..i would make sure it was caught and gotten rid of.


They probably aren't that keen on us TBH, always building our 'dens' all over their dens


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> These animals are attracted by our own wasteful lifestyles HB. I'm sure you don't leave anything lying around that would entice such creatures in.
> If people as a whole stopped leaving temptation lying around these animals would not be tempted.
> Fox's as a rule do not attack people.


No i dont...BUT i live literally right on a nature reserve only separated by a fence and im sorry but if i caught anything attacking my kids be it animal or human i would more than likely rip it apart with my bare hands. 
Regardless of if we leave things out that may attract them or not we ourselves are animals too really and any animal would protect its young...its human nature.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> And what, pray tell us, has this got to do with the subject at hand?
> 
> Or is this a somewhat feeble attempt at sarcasm?


No, not sarcasm. Just a point that a wild animal, which rarely poses any threat to people, bites one person ( allegedly), and people want them all got rid of, yet another animal which maims and kills people, especially little kids, on a far too often occurrence, not just the odd one or so, is "misunderstood", "normally safe as houses" and " wouldn't harm a fly" Seems like one rule for one and another rule for another to me, foxes are "dangerous" so they should be banned, yet devil dogs are far worse, but their ok:sosp:.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

harley bear said:


> *i would make sure it was caught* and gotten rid of.


how?........


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Delete duplicate post!


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> No, not sarcasm. Just a point that a wild animal, which rarely poses any threat to people, bites one person ( allegedly), and people want them all got rid of, yet another animal which maims and kills people, especially little kids, on a far too often occurrence, not just the odd one or so, is "misunderstood", "normally safe as houses" and " wouldn't harm a fly" Seems like one rule for one and another rule for another to me, foxes are "dangerous" so they should be banned, yet devil dogs are far worse, but their ok:sosp:.


:thumbup:

But this is PET forums not Foxy forums.....so brace yourself


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> No, not sarcasm. Just a point that a wild animal, which rarely poses any threat to people, bites one person ( allegedly), and people want them all got rid of, yet another animal which maims and kills people, especially little kids, on a far too often occurrence, not just the odd one or so, is "misunderstood", "normally safe as houses" and " wouldn't harm a fly" Seems like one rule for one and another rule for another to me, foxes are "dangerous" so they should be banned, yet devil dogs are far worse, but their ok:sosp:.


They aren't devil dogs....they are raised or bred by devils. My dad had one when I was small and he lived for 16 or so years. Soft as shite he was. Its the breeders you should target not the dog.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Lavenderb said:


> They aren't devil dogs....they are raised or bred by devils. My dad had one when I was small and he lived for 16 or so years. Soft as shite he was. Its the breeders you should target not the dog.


it's nothing to do with breeders , especially ethical ones. it's everything to do with the morons at the end of the lead.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> *No, not sarcasm*. Just a point that a wild animal, which rarely poses any threat to people, bites one person ( allegedly), and people want them all got rid of, yet another animal which maims and kills people, especially little kids, on a far too often occurrence, not just the odd one or so, is "misunderstood", "normally safe as houses" and " wouldn't harm a fly" Seems like one rule for one and another rule for another to me, foxes are "dangerous" so they should be banned, yet devil dogs are far worse, but their ok:sosp:.


So, your collie isn't also capable of attacking a child then? I ask this because I have only witnessed one child bitten by a dog & it was a collie.

Any dog is capable of biting, why do you pick up on one breed?

Do furnish us with details for how you have arrived at this interesting conclusion, & maybe link us to some articles to back up your theories.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Nagini said:


> it's nothing to do with breeders , especially ethical ones. it's everything to do with the morons at the end of the lead.


I was referring to the type of people who seem to throw 2 dogs together for the money/looks rather than the ethical breeders.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> So, your collie isn't also capable of attacking a child then? I ask this because I have only witnessed one child bitten by a dog & it was a collie.
> 
> Any dog is capable of biting, why do you pick up on one breed?
> 
> Do furnish us with details for how you have arrived at this interesting conclusion, & maybe link us to some articles to back up your theories.


Yes, she is, but as you yourself have put, you have only witnessed one bite by a collie. Yes any breed is capable of biting, but none of them seem to do so as much as bull breeds especially sbt's. I'm not picking on one breed, I'm going by what my eyes and experience tell me, that their a dangerous dog. And I'm not just going off the papers, I've had first hand experience of them, none of them pleasant ones. Their not a nice dog, they appear to be very unstable and go nuts suddenly for no reason. I've not met one nice one, and by nice, I mean able to stop in the street and pet it without fear of having your hand ripped off. No dog is 100% trustworthy or safe, but most aren't to the extreme that they seem to be.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Lavenderb said:


> I was referring to the type of people who seem to throw 2 dogs together for the money/looks rather than the ethical breeders.


would be a complete waste of time targeting those , it would make very little difference because they simply don't care for what they produce or the people they sell to. i think the way certain litters are advertised needs a massive overhaul , no papers , no tests , no approved advert! lets face it , you can advertise a dog or pup anywhere with little or no comeback
type of news item wobbles is referring to , none have ever been proven to be exactly ''this'' or ''that'' quite often , more often then most , it's usually badly bred crossbreeds in the frame , crossed to create the ''ultimate'' man stopper usually a mish mash of many breeds not just one.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, she is, but as you yourself have put, you have only witnessed one bite by a collie. Yes any breed is capable of biting, but none of them seem to do so as much as bull breeds especially sbt's. I'm not picking on one breed, I'm going by what my eyes and experience tell me, that their a dangerous dog. And I'm not just going off the papers, I've had first hand experience of them, none of them pleasant ones. Their not a nice dog, they appear to be very unstable and go nuts suddenly for no reason. I've not met one nice one, and by nice, I mean able to stop in the street and pet it without fear of having your hand ripped off. No dog is 100% trustworthy or safe, but most aren't to the extreme that they seem to be.


every staffie i have ever met have been very pleasant , biddable dogs. put them in a home with responsible people , they are dedicated to their families and thrive on their companionship. my experience with these dogs has been very different to yours.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, she is, but as you yourself have put, you have only witnessed one bite by a collie. Yes any breed is capable of biting, but none of them seem to do so as much as bull breeds especially sbt's. I'm not picking on one breed, I'm going by what my eyes and experience tell me, that their a dangerous dog. And I'm not just going off the papers, I've had first hand experience of them, none of them pleasant ones. Their not a nice dog, they appear to be very unstable and go nuts suddenly for no reason. *I've not met one nice one, and by nice, I mean able to stop in the street and pet it without fear of having your hand ripped off*. No dog is 100% trustworthy or safe, but most aren't to the extreme that they seem to be.


That's quite odd  as I've yet to meet a nasty one.

Maybe you just live in an area where all the sh*t stafford owners we hear about in the papers live too.


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

the fox is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

bordie said:


> the fox is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


But so are cats, are we going to start killing them? better get my shot gun out to stop all the people with flaming torches coming after my ones haha


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

bordie said:


> the fox is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


same could be said about man,,,,,


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

bordie said:


> the fox is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


So do people Bordie you wind up merchant


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bordie said:


> the fox is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


*Now you and i both know bordie, foxes don't have a sense of humour, so how can they kill for fun?:rolleyes5:*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Here's a thought for anyone who cares. Don't you find it strange/ bias, that just a couple of days ago a police dog bit 4 people. But i haven't heard any more about it. But find some story about a fox and all hell breaks loose.*


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

ahhhh!! lets not mention rats huh!!!..................................

the quandary man invents fox hunting which is classed as barbaric, so man then attacks such participants with barbarity x

who knows the truth to the reason behind the bite story! but what is true is Man should sometimes stop running around in vicious circles x

a devil dog - again a man creation x (not that I believe in the 'devil dog' for 1 whole second)


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> ahhhh!! lets not mention rats huh!!!..................................
> 
> the quandary man invents fox hunting which is classed as barbaric, so man then attacks such participants with barbarity x
> 
> ...


:Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

bordie said:


> :Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:


 keeping you up am I?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

bordie said:


> the fox is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


I like to think of them as an adaptive opportunist. Until el 9bore comes along.

What were the parents thinking to allow their child to reach int he throat of a fox anyway?

On a more serious note, they might want to:

Tidy the garden to make it uninviting for rats and foxes.
If they know foxes are a pest in the area then keep your ground windows shut.
Get a dog - my Lucy hates foxes, she shows me.
Kick the fox harder - apparantly they have spotted a fox nearby the house today, it wouldn't be able to walk right well if they'd broke it ribs trying to get it off the kid.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

bordie said:


> the bordie is a born killer.he killes for fun and loves doing it


:ciappa:!!!

offff with badgers, foxes, seagulls, pigeons....

by the way..and those monkeys who run around our Main Street and nearly snatch Scrip few days ago...I was literally surrounded by them on both sides!!!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, she is, but as you yourself have put, you have only witnessed one bite by a collie. Yes any breed is capable of biting, but none of them seem to do so as much as bull breeds especially sbt's. I'm not picking on one breed, I'm going by what my eyes and experience tell me, that their a dangerous dog. And I'm not just going off the papers, I've had first hand experience of them, none of them pleasant ones. Their not a nice dog, they appear to be very unstable and go nuts suddenly for no reason. I've not met one nice one, and by nice, I mean able to stop in the street and pet it without fear of having your hand ripped off. No dog is 100% trustworthy or safe, but most aren't to the extreme that they seem to be.


I think that the reason for it commonly being bull breeds is because the irresponsible owners tend to prefer them - and they RAISE/TRAIN them to be vicious - I have about 5 neighbours around me ALL with SBTs and I can honestly say they are all sweethearts - I will admit before I joined this forum and started to understand irresposible ownership I was afraid of this type of dog too but now I know better - as the saying goes - "blame the deed not the breed"

As for young children being killed by them - it is awful and v v sad BUT the responsiblility HAS to lie with the parents of children and the owners of the dogs (if they are bred viciously) so many times in these stories very young babies are being left alone with dogs - IMO THAT is irresponsible and the parents fault not the dog.

As for foxes - agree with the majority - we have helped create a problem whereby foxes have to now hunt in our towns etc - they are doing what comes naturally to them - hunting - it is the job of the parent to protect their baby - if the door was not working I would have been on the phone everyday till the council came telling them I had a month old baby in the house! failing that I would have fixed it myself.....we cannot blame the fox even though it is awful for the poor baby

Also agree that the timing is very convenient to coinside with the appeal on withdrawing the ban on fox hunting


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Here's a thought for anyone who cares. Don't you find it strange/ bias, that just a couple of days ago a police dog bit 4 people. But i haven't heard any more about it. But find some story about a fox and all hell breaks loose.*


Maybe because the fox actually ripped the baby's fiinger off, maybe because the baby is only a month old therefore hasnt had its jabs and the fox that bit his finger off carries a whole host of disease that could quite easily have killed the child...poor child is probably still on drugs to fight any infections it could have given it even now.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Maybe because the fox actually ripped the baby's fiinger off, maybe because the baby is only a month old therefore hasnt had its jabs and the fox that bit his finger off carries a whole host of disease that could quite easily have killed the child...poor child is probably still on drugs to fight any infections it could have given it even now.


Even more reason then for the parents to have ensured the baby was not alone ...knowing they had a door that COULD be accessed from the outside .....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Maybe because the fox actually ripped the baby's fiinger off, maybe because the baby is only a month old therefore hasnt had its jabs and the fox that bit his finger off carries a whole host of disease that could quite easily have killed the child...poor child is probably still on drugs to fight any infections it could have given it even now.


*With respect, that's a lot of " maybe's"...
And " maybe" this is just another pr stunt to bring back fox hunting.*


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> And " maybe" this is just another pr stunt to bring back fox hunting.*


wouldn't be a bad idea IMO


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Re; "devil dogs", I've met a few bad ones and usually the bad ones are coupled with idiotic owners who I wouldn't like to pass in the street in the dark. 

There's a 80 year old lady who lives in the next village who has a elderly staffy and she's a wonderful dog.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> That's quite odd  as I've yet to meet a nasty one.
> 
> Maybe you just live in an area where all the sh*t stafford owners we hear about in the papers live too.


No, tiny place, back of nowhere in the middle of Wales, hardly the streets of central London or the big cities.

I genuinely am surprised when I hear people say they've only met nice ones. Because my experiences have been anything but. I don't like them, and I do think their dangerous and unstable, but not because of what's in the papers. I've had first hand experiences with them. One tried to attack my little dog when my dad took him for a walk, them tried to attack him when he tried to make it go away. Another went for me and Meg when she was a pup in the local park. It was growling and snarling, the owner could barely keep hold of it, god knows what would have happened had it got free as there was nobody around to help. I was so shaken it took me days to pluck up the courage to take her out, and weeks before I could go back to the park. There used to be four in the houses below us, they were horrendous, they'd charge out in a pack and chase me up and down the hill growling and snarling, totally out of control. I was so afraid of them I couldn't go past the entrance without someone with me. The one time I did have to, they appeared from nowhere and hoping they hadn't noticed me, I dashed down the hill, tripped in panic and nearly broke both knees landing on them. I couldn't walk properly for weeks, got a awful infection in them, and was unable to do school sports for the rest of the year. All these were exactly the same breed and happened well before reading about attacks in the paper became a common occurrence. My views on these dogs aren't because of what I've read about them, though I'll admit it has further nailed it in that my thoughts on them is true. I have never, ever met a nice friendly one, I saw one stood on a pavement with its owner once, I only walked past and it went for me. I love dogs, but I don't like sbt's, I am really frightened of them, to the point I'll cross the road if I see one, and I'd never be able to walk past one that was wandering around on its own. People's opinions are usually made up of their experiences, and mine are that their not nice safe dogs.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I honestly wish people would read up on foxes. They are not the enemy some think they are.
eta.. you have the www at your finger tips..give it a try.*


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> No, tiny place, back of nowhere in the middle of Wales, hardly the streets of central London or the big cities.
> 
> I genuinely am surprised when I hear people say they've only met nice ones. Because my experiences have been anything but. I don't like them, and I do think their dangerous and unstable, but not because of what's in the papers. I've had first hand experiences with them. One tried to attack my little dog when my dad took him for a walk, them tried to attack him when he tried to make it go away. Another went for me and Meg when she was a pup in the local park. It was growling and snarling, the owner could barely keep hold of it, god knows what would have happened had it got free as there was nobody around to help. I was so shaken it took me days to pluck up the courage to take her out, and weeks before I could go back to the park. There used to be four in the houses below us, they were horrendous, they'd charge out in a pack and chase me up and down the hill growling and snarling, totally out of control. I was so afraid of them I couldn't go past the entrance without someone with me. The one time I did have to, they appeared from nowhere and hoping they hadn't noticed me, I dashed down the hill, tripped in panic and nearly broke both knees landing on them. I couldn't walk properly for weeks, got a awful infection in them, and was unable to do school sports for the rest of the year. All these were exactly the same breed and happened well before reading about attacks in the paper became a common occurrence. My views on these dogs aren't because of what I've read about them, though I'll admit it has further nailed it in that my thoughts on them is true. I have never, ever met a nice friendly one, I saw one stood on a pavement with its owner once, I only walked past and it went for me. I love dogs, but I don't like sbt's, I am really frightened of them, to the point I'll cross the road if I see one, and I'd never be able to walk past one that was wandering around on its own. People's opinions are usually made up of their experiences, and mine are that their not nice safe dogs.


perhaps it's nothing to do with the dogs , probably it's because how you react around them.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

You are judging every Sbt by the ones you've had a bad experience with... I have met some really nice well behaved Staffies that have come face to face with my Akita's & our daughters Pony with no bother what so ever


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Nagini said:


> perhaps it's nothing to do with the dogs , probably it's because how you react around them.


I was just thinking the same thing, maybe you misread their body language as well, or perhaps you just give off some kind of 'chase me' pheromone, Wobbles


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Maybe its the way u are round them ...maybe u didnt hav control of yr own dog which triggered a reaction in the sbt ....


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I was just thinking the same thing, maybe you misread their body language as well, or perhaps you just give off some kind of 'chase me' pheromone, Wobbles


I have never had a problem with any other breed of dog. And I did absolutely nothing to them, all I did was walk past (or try to). I'm afraid if a dog goes for someone just for walking past them they are not safe.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Even more reason then for the parents to have ensured the baby was not alone ...knowing they had a door that COULD be accessed from the outside .....


Why? I know quite a few people who put their babies in the bedroom to sleep why they are downstairs and use baby monitors. Why should someone keep the doors and windows shut in the house indefinitely..its not as if they are expecting a fox to come into the house and tear fingers off their child is it?



JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, that's a lot of " maybe's"...
> And " maybe" this is just another pr stunt to bring back fox hunting.*


Well the child DID have his finger ripped off and he WILL be on a course of antibiotics at the very least.

there was a photo on the news of the poor little boy with his hand in bandages.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I have never had a problem with any other breed of dog. And I did absolutely nothing to them, all I did was walk past (or try to). I'm afraid if a dog goes for someone just for walking past them they are not safe.


 Sorry but i dont believe u were just walking by and they went to attack ...

anyway back to foxes .....

i just dont get how people can hate them  ...they r wild animals. ...we are in their habitats as they were prob there before congestion of houses and populatipn ....

What about people who live abroad who have coyotes spider racoons etc they dont ask fir a mass cull they ensure their properties are safe and secure and ensure child supervisipn im sure ....its all about minimising risk!


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## LDK1 (Oct 1, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I have never had a problem with any other breed of dog. And I did absolutely nothing to them, all I did was walk past (or try to). I'm afraid if a dog goes for someone just for walking past them they are not safe.


Maybe you should stop wearing that "I hate SBTs" t-shirt...

Sorry, couldn't resist


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Goodness!! what you have just said about SBT is what people are now saying about foxes and neither is true in my opinion.


Generalisations never are....

Although I make an exception for people who ..........


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Nagini said:


> perhaps it's nothing to do with the dogs , probably it's because how you react around them.


My thoughts exactly.
Dogs sense fear, disgust and aggression in humans very well.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I have never had a problem with any other breed of dog. And I did absolutely nothing to them, all I did was walk past (or try to). I'm afraid if a dog goes for someone just for walking past them they are not safe.


thats your opinion , statistic's show there are millions and millions of staffies loved and owned by families worldwide , they can't all be wrong...maybe you give off ''scared'' vibes....this is for a thread in dog chat really isn't it?

now back to foxes...


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

*Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, told The Mail on Sunday: "My thoughts are with the baby boy and his family. Thankfully this sort of attack, though terrible, is rare, but we must do more to tackle the growing problem of urban foxes.
"They may appear cuddly and romantic but foxes are also a pest and a menace, particularly in our cities. This must serve as a wake-up call to Londons borough leaders, who are responsible for pest control.
"They must come together, study the data, try to understand why this is becoming such a problem and act quickly to sort it out."
Chris Packham, the wildlife presenter, said rubbish left on streets had led to an increase in fox numbers.
He said: If you want fewer foxes in towns, then dont cull them, but stop getting people to throw food on the ground, and into bins, because thats whats helping their numbers rise."

*

Foxes are a pest according to Boris Johnson. What about the pests who took away their countryside in the first place.
They must come together and study the data as to why this is becoming a problem??
Is he for real......they have become a problem because of humans.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

OK I am so not going to trail through all the pages, but.

I have had my door open the last couple of evenings its been quiet mild in kent and i have enjoyed listening to the birds, secondly i totally think a fox has gone in and attacked this baby town foxes know no bounds and as for feeding these horrid things stop they have territories if you feed them their area gets smaller other foxes take over and it ends in fights to the death when these so called loving humans go on holiday and the foxes are left to fend for themselves.....:incazzato:

Last night mr fox finally managed to work long enough on the chicken run and beheaded all three of my girls didn't take them but took the heads. they are the most worst creatures for showing nature at its rawest .....

at least country foxes are nervous of humans.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Sorry but i dont believe u were just walking by and they went to attack ...


I was and they did. ALL of them. I stand by my opinion of them which is that their unstable (normal dogs don't go for people for walking by), and people make excuses just because their dogs.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I was and they did. ALL of them. I stand by my opinion of them which is that their unstable (normal dogs don't go for people for walking by), and people make excuses just because their dogs.


It's a shame you never got to meet my dad's SBT, he was a gentle soul, never hurt a fly in his life. Broke my dads heart when he died.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I was and they did. ALL of them. I stand by my opinion of them which is that their unstable (normal dogs don't go for people for walking by), and people make excuses just because their dogs.


perfectly normal dogs can do anything if they sense something isn't quite right. dogs do actually know and can associate very well with people that don't like them.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> It's a shame you never got to meet my dad's SBT, he was a gentle soul, never hurt a fly in his life. Broke my dads heart when he died.


to Lavenderb she whispers *maybe they found out about the rats*


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> to Lavenderb she whispers *maybe they found out about the *rats**


And there was me thinking it was a thread about foxes


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> It's a shame you never got to meet my dad's SBT, he was a gentle soul, never hurt a fly in his life. Broke my dads heart when he died.


Well I suppose had I met ones like that, my views on them would be different. We go by our experiences. You (generic you)might think the guy in the club is lovely, but the person he's just pinned against the wall won't think so. I've had terrible service off Yodel and refuse to use them now, yet others might have no problems with them. It depends what you experience, if you've only had negative experiences of something, your going to have negative thoughts on it.



Nagini said:


> perfectly normal dogs can do anything if they sense something isn't quite right. dogs do actually know and can associate very well with people that don't like them.


That's the point though, until they went for me I had no reason to dislike them, and therefore wasn't afraid of them. Yes dogs can sense if your afraid of them and don't like them, but if your not, they have nothing to sense. These literally went crazy at being walked past, which doesn't say stable pet to me.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

ooooops sorry x refocus back to foxes x


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

The facts about urban foxes by a real expert

They are as big as Alsatians and getting bigger. Their numbers are increasing and are out of control. They foul our gardens, they rip cats apart, they are getting bolder. It is simply a matter of time before they kill a baby. City-dwellers cannot let toddlers play in the garden for fear they will be mauled or killed. It's incredible how much hysteria the British press can generate about such a small, and largely inoffensive, animal as the fox.

In the war on the urban fox, truth is not so much a casualty as irrelevant. The fox "cub" recently pictured sitting on a child's bed in London was actually an adult in the terminal stages of mange. It had crept into the house to try to keep warm (foxes with mange lose most of their fur): it caused no problem and was removed by the RSPCA. A non-story and an everyday occurrence with stray cats. Similarly, the fox in the wardrobe. Having entered a house, it panicked and did exactly what foxes do when scared: it looked for somewhere dark to hide. Again it posed no threat and hardly warranted newspaper coverage.

In March the press hailed a fox shot on a Scottish farm as the biggest ever killed in Britain, claiming that such large foxes were unthinkable a few years ago. Yet foxhunts were killing foxes much the same size a hundred years ago. Every urban fox story quotes an "expert", most of whom have little or no expertise on urban foxes. Here an expert was quoted as suggesting that foxes are getting bigger because they are better fed in urban areas. All the more remarkable that the fox killed in rural Aberdeenshire was about as far away from urban influences as is possible in mainland Britain, and none of the recent reports of big foxes have been from cities. Extremes occur in all species, even humans. Since the biggest man in the world was five times taller than the shortest, why are we surprised to see a fox twice as big as normal? With the anticipated climate changes in Britain, foxes are likely to get smaller, not bigger, something not reported in the "giant fox" stories.

The first claim that foxes will kill a baby appeared in the Sunday Times in 1973: 40 years on, this still has not happened. While twins attacked in Hackney in 2010 sustained nasty injuries, much about this incident puzzles me. Their injuries were unlike anything I have ever seen from foxes. Yet despite being such an atypical event, it is repeatedly referred to in the press. In comparison, the seven children and five adults killed by dogs since 2005, and the hundreds more disfigured, receive far less coverage

Nor are urban fox numbers increasing, despite claims made by yet another "expert" on the recent Channel 4 programme. In many cities fox numbers have declined due to sarcoptic mange, an extremely unpleasant and fatal disease. In Bristol, the fox population is still recovering from the 1994 mange outbreak, which killed more than 95%. The same expert also claimed that Channel 4 had undertaken "the biggest fox survey ever"; previous surveys have involved vastly more people. Nor is there any basis for Channel 4 to claim there are now 40,000 urban foxes in Britain: this figure will undoubtedly dominate the press even though the only scientifically based estimate is 33,000.

*With all this misinformation, it is hard to believe that we know more about British urban foxes than foxes anywhere else in the world. We even know more about urban foxes than most other British mammals: just about every aspect of their lives has been studied in minute detail. The underlying problem is that anything to do with foxes has been politically charged since the upsurge of the hunting debate in the mid-1990s. Until then press stories about foxes were largely balanced. However, influencing public opinion on the need to kill foxes has been a key goal of the hunting lobby. Yet despite the subsequent 15 years of press hype, the vast majority of British people still like foxes, particularly urban foxes. The anti-fox campaign hasn't worked, and it's time to return to more factual, and balanced, reporting*.

Stop hounding Britain's urban foxes | Stephen Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Great post Noush! Will rep when i get on main computer


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I remember when I lived in London, my OH and I were astounded and enchanted to see urban foxes in the Docklands where we lived. There was also a pair living on the tracks at Tower Gateway DLR station. I mean you can't get much more urban than that! They are remarkable and adaptable creatures. Wild animals only become a nuisance due to habitat destruction (by humans, of course).


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I haven't read all the posts, haven't had chance as I've had a hectic few days and am about to go out on call. 

I'm saddened and dismayed to see people blaming the parents. Foxes *should* be wild animals, and should be fearful of humans. Why? Because they need to survive naturally. I think it's totally barbaric to encourage wild animals to live an unnatural life, eating from our hands, literally, and then not expect repercussions, ie foxes losing their natural fear and coming into conflict with humans. 

I would prefer to watch foxes from afar, and get a fleeting glimpse of one running for it's life (naturally) than see one eating out of someone's hand, or cat food from a dish.  One of the comments on the BBC news article sickened me, with someone who hand feeds foxes in their garden, declaring the fox was better trained than most dogs. How naieve can people be?!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

A little bit of media sense on the issue at last:

Urban foxes: Fact and fiction

The rat thing is interesting - anyone remember when Athens culled their feral cats before hosting the Olympics and was overrun with rats?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Great post Noush! Will rep when i get on main computer


Ta very much Suzy!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Chris Packham talking a whole lotta common sense ...unlike that buffoon Johnson!

BBC News - Wildlife presenter Chris Packham: 'Tolerance needed for foxes'


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

The parents of this child was interviewed this morning on tv. 
The father of the child had shut the door before leaving for the school run...the council had worked on the door prior and the door didnt shut properly but the father hadnt realised...the mother had gone upstairs for a minute and ran down stairs when she heard crying and the fox was heading out the house with the baby in its mouth! The only reason the mother was able to save her child was because it was holding the baby sideways and was struggling to get through the gap. 

This poor woman has been hounded by idiots across the internet who have been accusing her of having a dog and accusing a fox for a dog attack! 

I cant name anyone who hasnt left their baby asleep why they nipped to the loo or to quickly dart round the house and do a little housework why they have a second so how dare anyone condemn this woman?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

harley bear said:


> The parents of this child was interviewed this morning on tv.
> The father of the child had shut the door before leaving for the school run...the council had worked on the door prior and the door didnt shut properly but the father hadnt realised...the mother had gone upstairs for a minute and ran down stairs when she heard crying and the fox was heading out the house with the baby in its mouth! The only reason the mother was able to save her child was because it was holding the baby sideways and was struggling to get through the gap.
> 
> This poor woman has been hounded by idiots across the internet who have been accusing her of having a dog and accusing a fox for a dog attack!
> ...


Absolutely couldn't agree more.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

To be fair I also watched the interview, and didn't believe a word she was saying 

I love watching body language :lol:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> To be fair I also watched the interview, and didn't believe a word she was saying
> 
> I love watching body language :lol:


Really?

Would you like to know what i saw?

I saw two parents holding a baby covered in cuts and bruises who were just glad to have their beautiful baby alive!

Do you really think they would be flaunting themselves on tv if their dog attacked the child? They stated they didnt have a dog...surely the neighbours or someone they are known to would come forward and sell their story how they had a big mean man eating dog and how they were lying if they did!

OR maybe, just maybe the government have paid them off to tell this story so they dont have to have a ban on fox hunting


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

harley bear said:


> The parents of this child was interviewed this morning on tv.
> The father of the child had shut the door before leaving for the school run...the council had worked on the door prior and the door didnt shut properly but the father hadnt realised...the mother had gone upstairs for a minute and ran down stairs when she heard crying and the fox was heading out the house with the baby in its mouth! The only reason the mother was able to save her child was because it was holding the baby sideways and was struggling to get through the gap.
> 
> This poor woman has been hounded by idiots across the internet who have been accusing her of having a dog and accusing a fox for a dog attack!
> ...


Exactly,you cant strap a baby to your back while you go to the toilet,when mine were babies when they were asleep was the only chance i really had to do house work or sleep myself


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I dont know about condemning her - I think people are merely questioning the actual facts.

I will add however that I find it a tad strange that mere days after your month old baby has been attacked and a finger taken off and you are posing for pictures for the sun on the front page and doing interviews for TV??


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I dont know about condemning her - I think people are merely questioning the actual facts.
> 
> I will add however that I find it a tad strange that mere days after your month old baby has been attacked and a finger taken off and you are posing for pictures for the sun on the front page and doing interviews for TV??


I doubt they called the press themselves initially and if they want to do an interview now the baby is out of danger who are we to judge? That will be a nice lump sum in the bubs account or put towards something thats needed.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Do you really think they would be flaunting themselves on tv if their dog attacked the child?


Actually yes I do, I know my own mother would have for her bit of attention.

I actually watched the body language of the parents as they spoke, they were hiding something for sure IMHO of course.

Anyway regardless of this attack being factual or not, a rare fox attack (if it actually happened) does not mean we should kill all the foxes 
Stop people feeding the foxes, put measures into place so the foxes can't get into the rubbish... You know stop bloody well encouraging wild animals to live in our back gardens...

The answer is not to kill everything, that's what got us into the state we are in today


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Actually yes I do, I know my own mother would have for her bit of attention.
> 
> I actually watched the body language of the parents as they spoke, they were hiding something for sure IMHO of course.
> 
> ...


Is that poor baby not proof enough?!!!

How do you know they had rubbish in their garden? YOU DONT! How do you know that they were encouraging them by feeding them? YOU DONT!

I didnt say the answer was to kill everything.

People bang on about us building on their land etc well where the hell are we expected to build? 
In one breath someone is moaning that we are living on their territory and in the next breath they will be moaning that there are not enough houses in the country to house everyone


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Is that poor baby not proof enough?!!!
> 
> How do you know they had rubbish in their garden? YOU DONT! How do you know that they were encouraging them by feeding them? YOU DONT!
> 
> ...


No it isn't, yes the baby has been attacked by something...Only the mother and the baby know what it was...I don't believe the mum..sorry but I am fully entitled to not believe her if I wish 
I never said THEY had rubbish in their garden...please keep to the facts...

Also never said YOU said to kill them all...However Boris Johnson DID say that a cull was needed...I disagree which again I am entitled to....

As for building, maybe it was time we realised that we live on a tiny little island and we have no where else to build :idea:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Iv been sitting here thinking about this and i thought to myself i know people say we shouldnt feed them but if we did then maybe they wouldnt get as desperate for food to feel the need to come into peoples homes. 

Im not saying we should i just wondered what people thought about that idea?

Or do you feel it would make the problem worse as maybe it would lead to a bigger fox population as they would breed better with a constant food supply?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> No it isn't, yes the baby has been attacked by something...Only the mother and the baby know what it was...I don't believe the mum..sorry but I am fully entitled to not believe her if I wish
> I never said THEY had rubbish in their garden...please keep to the facts...
> 
> Also never said YOU said to kill them all...However Boris Johnson DID say that a cull was needed...I disagree which again I am entitled to....
> ...


Yet the borders are still wide open 

I cant help but wonder what the reaction would be of a fox sneaked into a house and attacked a sleeping cat or puppy.

Personally i think to even consider this is all a big conspiracy is just utter lunacy.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

PROOF - unless you see it with your own eyes you need to be subjective.

I dont believe them nor do I believe its a pro hunting conspiracy.

This decision I have concluded with what I have seen, read and from my own knowledge/learning, it is my opinion and its not the same as yours hey di ho.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Iv been sitting here thinking about this and i thought to myself i know people say we shouldnt feed them but if we did then maybe they wouldnt get as desperate for food to feel the need to come into peoples homes.
> 
> Im not saying we should i just wondered what people thought about that idea?
> 
> Or do you feel it would make the problem worse as maybe it would lead to a bigger fox population as they would breed better with a constant food supply?


See the way I see it is constant feeding will encourage more foxes into the area as their territory shrinks due to being fed in one area and then on top of that they become less scared of humans..
A scared wild fox will NOT come into peoples houses, but as people feed them humans aren't as scary anymore.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Yet the borders are still wide open
> 
> I cant help but wonder what the reaction would be of a fox sneaked into a house and attacked a sleeping cat or puppy.
> 
> Personally i think to even consider this is all a big conspiracy is just utter lunacy.


Not really relevant to this convo tho is it 
If a fox had attacked a cat or puppy there wouldn't be much left, and yes I would still say stop feeding the foxes..

I don't think it is all a big conspiracy, I just don't believe it happened the way it is being reported...big difference


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

A cull does not mean killing all of a species, it means limiting their numbers within an area. One positive aspect of culling, other than hopefully removing individuals that are less able to survive naturally, would be to increase their fear of man. But the terrible thought of animals being frightened of us and *shock horror* living naturally would most likely offend too many people. Best let their population get to the point where they die of disease and starvation and come into continual conflict with humans, then berate those who dare to report when such a conflict really happens.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Yet the borders are still wide open
> 
> I cant help but wonder what the reaction would be of a fox sneaked into a house and attacked a sleeping cat or puppy.
> 
> Personally i think to even consider this is all a big conspiracy is just utter lunacy.


My reaction would be the same - unfortunate and sad but NOT the foxes fault - why do people think it is the Foxes fault?? thats the question.

IMO the fox which is obviously an opportunistic hunter was doing what comes naturally - - if this is really true and just a freak accident - why is a mass cull being called for?? that IMO is where the story starts to unravel.....


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Iv been sitting here thinking about this and i thought to myself i know people say we shouldnt feed them but if we did then maybe they wouldnt get as desperate for food to feel the need to come into peoples homes.
> 
> Im not saying we should i just wondered what people thought about that idea?
> 
> Or do you feel it would make the problem worse as maybe it would lead to a bigger fox population as they would breed better with a constant food supply?


Feeding them encourages them to overcome their natural fear of humans. When that happens, they are more likely to approach human dwellings, since being fed by humans is far easier than hunting for food - this is what causes the problems, and in the long run makes them more likely to be killed when they become "pests".
If you care about foxes, you don't feed them, it's no good for them and will get them shot.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Not really relevant to this convo tho is it
> If a fox had attacked a cat or puppy there wouldn't be much left, and yes I would still say stop feeding the foxes..
> 
> I don't think it is all a big conspiracy, I just don't believe it happened the way it is being reported...big difference


The fox picked up the child to take it outside and eat it, so it would have done the same with a cat or small dog..if the owner of a cat or dog reported that they had to pull the cat/dog out the jaws of a fox then would people feel differently?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

lets just give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she isnt lying and the baby actually was attacked by a fox... What a shame, but it's pleasing that the kid is ok now.

To me thats all there is to be said - there's absolutely no need or reason to persecute foxes because of a freak incident like this.... unless of course, you have another agenda in which case you might see this babies trauma as an opportunity to further it. Shame on you for that.

I value the life of one single fox higher than that of a thousand fox hunters or hunt sympathisers.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Not really relevant to this convo tho is it
> If a fox had attacked a cat or puppy there wouldn't be much left, and yes I would still say stop feeding the foxes..
> 
> I don't think it is all a big conspiracy, I just don't believe it happened the way it is being reported...big difference





myshkin said:


> Feeding them encourages them to overcome their natural fear of humans. When that happens, they are more likely to approach human dwellings, since being fed by humans is far easier than hunting for food - this is what causes the problems, and in the long run makes them more likely to be killed when they become "pests".
> If you care about foxes, you don't feed them, it's no good for them and will get them shot.


Good points i see what you mean.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

harley bear said:


> The fox picked up the child to take it outside and eat it, so it would have done the same with a cat or small dog..if the owner of a cat or dog reported that they had to pull the cat/dog out the jaws of a fox then would people feel differently?


No, I have said I wouldn't have felt differently given the same evidence that I have with this case..

I have actually lived in close proximity to rural foxes for some time, we hear them barking out the back at night...
Not a single one has come near anyone's houses, no small animals have gone missing..nothing...
They aren't fed, so have no interest in their human neighbours.. funny that


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

a fox took all but 3 of my chickens and ducks last Jan, I have a fox trail that runs down the side of the garden, they drink from my pond, I have seen the cubs romp in the top of my garden - never have they been anywhere near my door, maybe they know they are not welcome? 

and for everyone out there who has slated hunters, well I am one - NO I do not want hunting with foxes to return, honestly its not the same, but for me more ethical - so please stop wishing that we die, the whole tarnishing with a brush thing is so passe!


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

a fox killed all my chickens and ducks he came back for more i shot him


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bordie said:


> a fox killed all my chickens and ducks he came back for more i shot him


*Surely that was your own fault for not having a fox proof shelter for them.If you know foxes are in your area why would you not fox proof?*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> A cull does not mean killing all of a species, it means limiting their numbers within an area. One positive aspect of culling, other than hopefully removing individuals that are less able to survive naturally, would be to increase their fear of man. But the terrible thought of animals being frightened of us and *shock horror* living naturally would most likely offend too many people. Best let their population get to the point where they die of disease and starvation and come into continual conflict with humans, then berate those who dare to report when such a conflict really happens.


Typical knee jerk reaction & culling doesnt work!

Tried and failed

People who call for a fox cull also forget or ignore the fact that it has been tried before, and failed. Foxes started to colonise our cities in the 1930s, when a house-building boom and suburban expansion created an ideal habitat for both people and foxes - lower-density housing with bigger gardens. From the late 1940s, the then Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries started trapping and shooting foxes in south-east London to try to curb the growing red menace. Yet fox numbers continued to increase and they spread into the inner suburbs.

In 1970 the responsibility for fox control passed to the London boroughs, and many in south and west London started trapping and shooting foxes, and gassing their dens with cyanide.

Bromley once had a full-time fox control officer who killed over 300 foxes a year, mostly by shooting them in people's gardens with a 12-bore shotgun. For two days a week he was assisted by another council employee. However, their combined efforts had no discernible impact on fox numbers and Bromley, along with the other London boroughs, ceased its fox control measures in the 1980s.

We could not even stop the early spread of foxes into London, let alone reduce numbers, an all-too-familiar story with foxes generally.

The lack of success was hardly surprising. In the city of Bristol in western England, when foxes are removed from a territory, others take their place in around four days. Studies in Scotland and Wales both suggest that killing foxes leads to a slightly higher breeding population the next year, probably because more foxes move in to contest the vacant area than were there in the first place.

Culling urban foxes just doesn't work - opinion - 13 February 2013 - New Scientist



harley bear said:


> The fox picked up the child to take it outside and eat it, so it would have done the same with a cat or small dog..if the owner of a cat or dog reported that they had to pull the cat/dog out the jaws of a fox then would people feel differently?


Rottweilers actually _Have_ killed babies & bite many more people than foxes do...So just out of curiosity, how does it make You feel when people demonise the entire breed because of a few isolated cases? Angry at their irrational hysteria maybe?

.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Girl bitten on the leg by a fox when she was jogging - Telegraph

Culling does ensure a healthy population, there's plenty of evidence for that. It also ensures a healthy natural fear of humans, if you read what I put above it doesn't say anything about reducing populations, my concern would be ensuring the present population was healthy, and also avoided conflict with humans. Our own emotions get the better of *us* and people tend to humanise wild animals, feeding them and trying to treat them, which is in my books cruel. Let wild animals be wild, they don't deserve humans putting them at risk by encouraging them to come into more and more conflict with situations like the little boy who was attacked, and the above attack on a teenager.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

[QUOTERottweilers actually _Have_ killed babies & bite many more people than foxes do...So just out of curiosity, how does ot make You feel when people demonise the entire breed because of a few isolated cases? Angry at their irrational hysteria maybe?

.[/QUOTE]

The big difference is humans chose to domesticate dogs..sooo if a dog attacks a child inside the house you have to question why the dog was left alone with the child.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Girl bitten on the leg by a fox when she was jogging - Telegraph
> 
> Culling does ensure a healthy population, there's plenty of evidence for that. It also ensures a healthy natural fear of humans, if you read what I put above it doesn't say anything about reducing populations, my concern would be ensuring the present population was healthy, and also avoided conflict with humans. Our own emotions get the better of *us* and people tend to humanise wild animals, feeding them and trying to treat them, which is in my books cruel. Let wild animals be wild, they don't deserve humans putting them at risk by encouraging them to come into more and more conflict with situations like the little boy who was attacked, and the above attack on a teenager.


*lol The story in the link happened in January, why report it now?
*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol The story in the link happened in January, why report it now?
> *


Why not? I'm not aware of any law against when people are allowed to share their stories to the news of things that have happened to them.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Girl bitten on the leg by a fox when she was jogging - Telegraph
> 
> Culling does ensure a healthy population, there's plenty of evidence for that. It also ensures a healthy natural fear of humans, if you read what I put above it doesn't say anything about reducing populations, my concern would be ensuring the present population was healthy, and also avoided conflict with humans. Our own emotions get the better of *us* and people tend to humanise wild animals, feeding them and trying to treat them, which is in my books cruel. Let wild animals be wild, they don't deserve humans putting them at risk by encouraging them to come into more and more conflict with situations like the little boy who was attacked, and the above attack on a teenager.


Well come on then SL...show us all this evidence to back up your statement then

Yeah & I predict they'll be lots more reports of fox attacks in the coming weeks

,


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why not? I'm not aware of any law against when people are allowed to share their stories to the news of things that have happened to them.


The government forced her, its all part of the governments plan to get everyone pro fox hunting! I thought that was obvious!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Well come on then SL...show us all this evidence to back up your statement then
> 
> Yeah & I predict they'll be lots more reports of fox attacks in the coming weeks
> 
> ,


Just google Baronsdown, that'll show you what a population looks like left to itself rather than culled to ensure healthy animals are predominant. Or are you disagreeing that culling unhealthy animals will ensure a population that is healthier overall at that current point in time?

Since the average lifespan of a *wild* fox is approx 2 years, culling unhealthy animals surely isn't necessarily cruel, leaving animals to suffer and die slowly is however in my books.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why not? I'm not aware of any law against when people are allowed to share their stories to the news of things that have happened to them.


*LMAO who said anything about law? My point is ( which i'm sure you know), why has this girl only just told her story? Perhaps she needs the money to replace her jeans.:lol::lol:*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

harley bear said:


> The government forced her, its all part of the governments plan to get everyone pro fox hunting! I thought that was obvious!


She'd obviously sprayed herself with fox pheremones before she left the house as well.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> The government forced her, its all part of the governments plan to get everyone pro fox hunting! I thought that was obvious!


*
tut tut, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.:001_unsure:*


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

It doesn't make sense to me that somebody would have a door that isn't secure, particularly with a newborn in the house, in the winter! Forget foxes and wildlife, what about some weirdo sneaking in your house

I've had children and left doors open in the Summer but if I'm not in the room with the baby (as in the baby is in his/her room, in their cot) then I secure their bedroom door, to make sure that baby is safe at all times. We don't have a fox problem where I am, purely because we've made the fences high and with trellis' but I still wouldn't leave doors open when I'm not about to keep an eye. Even with us in the room, we've had a Robin come in recently and a rat a month or two before that. 

The whole affair seems a little strange to me


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She'd obviously sprayed herself with fox pheremones before she left the house as well.


They sell it by the bottle in poundland 



JANICE199 said:


> *
> tut tut, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.:001_unsure:*


Well at least i have a sense of humor :001_tt2:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

chichi said:


> It doesn't make sense to me that somebody would have a door that isn't secure, particularly with a newborn in the house, in the winter! Forget foxes and wildlife, what about some weirdo sneaking in your house
> 
> I've had children and left doors open in the Summer but if I'm not in the room with the baby (as in the baby is in his/her room, in their cot) then I secure their bedroom door, to make sure that baby is safe at all times. We don't have a fox problem where I am, purely because we've made the fences high and with trellis' but I still wouldn't leave doors open when I'm not about to keep an eye. Even with us in the room, we've had a Robin come in recently and a rat a month or two before that.
> 
> The whole affair seems a little strange to me


The door was broken, the council tried, and failed to fix it (go figure) it was the middle of the day (school run time) and the father of the child did shut the door and didnt realise it hadnt caught properly.

The mother left her baby sleeping for a few minutes, she thought the house was secure, they have no animals that could hurt the baby in the property...they did nothing wrong.

they did not leave the door open.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

harley bear said:


> The door was broken, the council tried, and failed to fix it (go figure) it was the middle of the day (school run time) and the father of the child did shut the door and didnt realise it hadnt caught properly.
> 
> The mother left her baby sleeping for a few minutes, she thought the house was secure, they have no animals that could hurt the baby in the property...they did nothing wrong.
> *
> they did not leave the door open*.


what you mean is "they did not purposefully leave the door open". But they did in fact leave the door open.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

[


> QUOTE=harley bear;1062705017?
> 
> The big difference is humans chose to domesticate dogs..sooo if a dog attacks a child inside the house you have to question why the dog was left alone with the child.


[/QUOTE]

But the hysteria is Exactly the same! & plenty would love to add Rottweilers to the dangerous dogs list!

People really do need toget this fox incidence into some perspective & drop the hysteria!...you are far more likely to be struck by lightening then bitten by a fox!



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just google Baronsdown, that'll show you what a population looks like left to itself rather than culled to ensure healthy animals are predominant. Or are you disagreeing that culling unhealthy animals will ensure a population that is healthier overall at that current point in time?
> 
> Since the average lifespan of a *wild* fox is approx 2 years, culling unhealthy animals surely isn't necessarily cruel, leaving animals to suffer and die slowly is however in my books.


Why would i want to google Baronsdown? we're not talking about deer you already know my views on culling deer.

Im all for culling sick animals if it cant be saved...but this call to cull urban foxes is for a blanket cull!...& most wont reach 2 because theyre shot,snared,poisoned,run over, ETA ripped up by hounds...........


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> [


But the hysteria is Exactly the same! & plenty would love to add Rottweilers to the dangerous dogs list!

People really do need toget this fox incidence into some perspective & drop the hysteria!...you are far more likely to be struck by lightening then bitten by a fox![/QUOTE]
And where is the evidence for this?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

harley bear said:


> And where is the evidence for this?


_ Currently, about 30-60 people are struck by lightning each year in Britain of whom, on average, three may be killed. This compares with about 75 deaths in the much larger USA. The number of people killed by lightning each year has varied markedly. For example, the worst year in recent decades was 1982 when 14 people were killed whereas there were no deaths in 2000 or 2001 - the first years without lightning fatalities since 1937.

There are around 300,000 ground strikes by lightning every year in Britain. On average (based on a ten-year period), this means that someone is struck once every 6,000 strikes and someone killed once every 100,000 strikes. A 'thunderstorm day' may produce up to 10,000 ground strikes although the exceptional day of 24 July 1994 produced 85,000 ground strikes._
source : TORRO - Lightning Impacts

Admittedly i cannot find much information on the exact number of fox attacks per year but that is understandable since it would be a huge waste of money to set up an organisation which records how many fox attacks there are per year if that number is likely to be 0.01 or something similarly tiny.

But i feel like ive done my bit now. maybe you can produce the evidence which shows there are more than 30-60 fox attacks per year in the UK. Either that or you can just except what is bloody obvious to all but the most ignorant of fox haters.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

harley bear said:


> 1062705125]
> And where is the evidence for this?


[/QUOTE]

30-60 people are struck by lightening annually in the UK...compared to the handful of people bitten by foxes per year..which Always make the tory press & most of those arent verified attacks 

TORRO - Lightning Impacts

Disease & Aggression | The Fox Project

ETA thank you Porps for posting the info, im a bit slow as im in the middle of cooking tea lol

.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

harley bear said:


> The door was broken, the council tried, and failed to fix it (go figure) it was the middle of the day (school run time) and the father of the child did shut the door and didnt realise it hadnt caught properly.
> 
> The mother left her baby sleeping for a few minutes, she thought the house was secure, they have no animals that could hurt the baby in the property...they did nothing wrong.
> 
> they did not leave the door open.


They did HB. ......they just werent aware that they had left the door open.

We all make mistakes but this incident occurred due to negligence of the Parents. Anything could have happened to that baby and in the grand scheme of things a fox attack is not the worst thing that could have happened....considering who could have come through that door.....ie a child abductor.

I am a worrier and double check all my doors every time I close them. I am surprised that knowing the door was faulty....it wasnt double checked. Sounds like a lot of excuses have been made for what amounts to negligence.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

If i *knew* we had a *fox problem *and *faulty door *with a *new born *in my home i defo would *double check *that door isnt that common sense?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Yes, she is, but as you yourself have put, you have only witnessed one bite by a collie. Yes any breed is capable of biting, but none of them seem to do so as much as bull breeds especially sbt's. I'm not picking on one breed, I'm going by what my eyes and experience tell me, that their a dangerous dog. And I'm not just going off the papers, I've had first hand experience of them, none of them pleasant ones. Their not a nice dog, they appear to be very unstable and go nuts suddenly for no reason. I've not met one nice one, and by nice, I mean able to stop in the street and pet it without fear of having your hand ripped off. No dog is 100% trustworthy or safe, but most aren't to the extreme that they seem to be.


Not read the whole thread yet, but just had to stop and remark upon this. Staffies are no more dangerous than any other dogs. If your only experiences of this breed are unpleasant, and if you only know bad staffies, then all I can surmise is that you must move in some strange circles.

I have owned staffie crosses; I have several friends with staffies (some of whom also have children); I have seen staffies being shown at the shows where terriers are on the same day as pastoral; I have met staffies on walks; I have met staffies waiting outside shops - and I have to say that I have yet to meet one who isn't loving, happy, full of beans and very, very friendly.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Maybe if they didn't have so rubbish strewn around their garden (I'm going by the pic I saw in the Fail) they'd have less 'vermin' attracted into it.


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Surely that was your own fault for not having a fox proof shelter for them.If you know foxes are in your area why would you not fox proof?*


why should i wast money to protect my stock from vermin i dont have any foxes now


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Surely that was your own fault for not having a fox proof shelter for them.If you know foxes are in your area why would you not fox proof?*


mine where taken during the day, whilst I was out, in all the years chook keeping and all of my foxy knowledge this is a rarity - but it still happened - we think it was an injured fox taking a chance, obliterated my flock, and left all of the carcasses behind!! I do have a fox proof shelter, they have a hexagonal shed, concrete floor and soild door/sides x

I accept it as a risk of chook keeping but its heart breaking when you see the destruction and having to put pay to those chickens who were not quite gone x and I love my chooks like some love their cats/dogs x


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Of the previous 3 fox / baby incidents: two were proved to be perpetrated by family pets, and the investigation of the third (saliva test) was refused. 
I am still waiting to hear how a fox lifted a child out of a cot then gave him a black eye.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

chichi said:


> They did HB. ......they just werent aware that they had left the door open.
> 
> We all make mistakes but this incident occurred due to negligence of the Parents. Anything could have happened to that baby and in the grand scheme of things a fox attack is not the worst thing that could have happened....considering who could have come through that door.....ie a child abductor.
> 
> I am a worrier and double check all my doors every time I close them. I am surprised that knowing the door was faulty....it wasnt double checked. Sounds like a lot of excuses have been made for what amounts to negligence.


Oh come on! Lets get a grip!

She lived in a terraced house, it was daylight, i do not know anyone who locks their front and back doors during daylight hours! And its HIGHLY unlikely any child abductor would go round checking for doors that had been left unlocked  
They didnt know the door was still faulty because the council had been round and 'fixed' it!


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## LDK1 (Oct 1, 2010)

If the parents are to be believed, then this is just a set of freak circumstances that led to the incident. This is not a good enough reason to start culling foxes IMO.

Foxes can be a pain in the backside at times, but they are just 'dumb' animals (like every other 'dumb' animal on the planet) doing what they need to do to survive.

We (humans) are supposed to be intelligent and civilized. Can we not find a way to solve any problems we have with dumb animals other than by killing them?

A lot of the problems with urban foxes are man-made, why should the foxes have to pay the ultimate price?

I say this in a dispondent manner, and yes it's probably over-the-top, but human beings really suck sometimes!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

As many people have already said, I think this needs to be brought into perspective. 

Attacks by urban foxes are so rare that it is simply mass hysteria to start calling for a cull. Attacks by dogs are much more frequent - yet we don't hear of hysterical calls for culls on dogs.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Im not calling for all foxes to be culled..what annoys me is that a child has been severely injured and its 'the parents fault'!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Im not calling for all foxes to be culled..what annoys me is that a child has been severely injured and its 'the parents fault'!


I've no idea whether or not it was the parents' fault - I've not see any interviews and only skim read the original article (and I automatically don't believe anything in the Daily Wail anyway).

However, I do know that when we hear foxes barking in the fields behind our house, we make sure the animals are inside and the doors and windows are closed.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

bordie said:


> why should i wast money to protect my stock from vermin i dont have any foxes now


so in your opinion protecting your stock from vermin is a waste of money?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

porps said:


> so in your opinion protecting your stock from vermin is a waste of money?


Why bother protecting the stock when it's so much more fun to kill the vermin


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Im not calling for all foxes to be culled..what annoys me is that a child has been severely injured and its 'the parents fault'!


So whose fault is it ? The fox does not have a responsibility to protect the child ...the parents do ...if the house had not been accessible the fox wud prob not have got in ....


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Culling does ensure a healthy population, there's plenty of evidence for that. It also ensures a healthy natural fear of humans, if you read what I put above it doesn't say anything about reducing populations, my concern would be ensuring the present population was healthy, and also avoided conflict with humans. Our own emotions get the better of *us* and people tend to humanise wild animals, feeding them and trying to treat them, which is in my books cruel. Let wild animals be wild, they don't deserve humans putting them at risk by encouraging them to come into more and more conflict with situations like the little boy who was attacked, and the above attack on a teenager.


Culling foxes is not like culling deer as they're territorial - you kill one fox and another moves straight on in to take its place. One second you're saying 'let wild animals be wild' and then you say we need to interfere and cull them  Even the British pest control association are opposed to a cull and they're not exactly fox friendly.

I actually completely agree that a healthy 'respect' of people is in the foxes best interests but that can be achieved in so many ways without resorting to an ineffective cull. One of my very favourate wildlife management projects is the use of karelian bear dogs in North America to teach 'respect' to 'bad' bears that before would be certainly shot - Wind River Bear Institute - YouTube . Many non-lethal projects like this have an 80-90% sucess rate with a 500kg animal that can actually kill people. And you want to implement a cull to protect us from a 10kg animal that has yet to kill anyone....


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

harley bear said:


> Oh come on! Lets get a grip!
> 
> She lived in a terraced house, it was daylight, i do not know anyone who locks their front and back doors during daylight hours! And its HIGHLY unlikely any child abductor would go round checking for doors that had been left unlocked
> They didnt know the door was still faulty because the council had been round and 'fixed' it!


So they didnt check the door after a Council workman had said it was fixed......negligence.....like I said.

And I lock my backdoor if I go upstairs during the day...say to have a bath or something. My front door is not openable without a key from outside so I dont need to check it.

As incredible as you find it that people check that doors are secured.....I feel the same about people that dont......especially with a baby in the house.

And you know when Maddie McCann went missing.....I expect on weighing up the circumstances her Parents thought that the chances of a child abductor finding her was nil to none.....years later that little angel is still missing. So I will roll those eyes right back at ya


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> Culling foxes is not like culling deer as they're territorial - you kill one fox and another moves straight on in to take its place. One second you're saying 'let wild animals be wild' and then you say we need to interfere and cull them  Even the British pest control association are opposed to a cull and they're not exactly fox friendly.


While I agree with your first point and your second. I do feel that on occasion and for the protection of other wildlife and/or stock in our ever decreasing countryside, it is unfortunately necessary to practice predator control.

That isn't totally confined to foxes however
Fox
The consequences of predator control for brown hares (Lepus europaeus) on UK farmland - Springer

Grey Squirrel
Red squirrel appeal

Rats (not here but British) 
SGHT Habitat Restoration Project |

And when we get it wrong 
Hedgehog cull project fails to boost bird population | Highlands & Islands | News | STV


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

rona said:


> While I agree with your first point and your second. I do feel that on occasion and for the protection of other wildlife and/or stock in our ever decreasing countryside, it is unfortunately necessary to practice predator control.
> 
> That isn't totally confined to foxes however
> Fox
> The consequences of predator control for brown hares (Lepus europaeus) on UK farmland - Springer


Although now pretty much considered 'native' by many the brown hare is an introduced species that was probably brought here during roman occupation, the red fox was definately here first. Absolutely no doubt that foxes have an impact on hare populations but the two species have been around each other for a long time without wiping each other out, so what's changed? Either the fox has outcompeted the hare in the evolutionary arms race - a natural process or the more likely explanation is that something we've done has hammered the hare population so that the foxes have the upper hand.

It's pretty much certain that modern agriculture has had a big role to play in hare decline and it's also worth noting:

" Despite its decline, the hare is the only game species in Britain which does not have a shooting close season. Large, organised shoots in East Anglia during February and March can account for *40% of the entire national brown hare population.* And since the breeding season is well under way by February, orphaned leverets are left to die of starvation. Hares do have a remarkable ability to recover from such slaughter but the welfare implications of these shoots are clearly enormous" - Hare Preservation Trust

If we're shooting over 1/3 of our hare population each year for sport it seems a bit hypocritical to cull foxes for 'killing too many hares'.



rona said:


> Grey Squirrel
> Red squirrel appeal


Introduced species and also not a predator. The impact of an invasive species introduced into the UK is a completely different to a species that's been around since the last ice age (like the red fox...)



rona said:


> Rats (not here but British)
> SGHT Habitat Restoration Project |


Again an introduced species, also not really a cull but a complete erradication.



rona said:


> And when we get it wrong
> Hedgehog cull project fails to boost bird population | Highlands & Islands | News | STV


Which is why certain people shouldn't assume that culling is always a good thing.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> Although now pretty much considered 'native' by many the brown hare is an introduced species that was probably brought here during roman occupation, the red fox was definately here first. Absolutely no doubt that foxes have an impact on hare populations but the two species have been around each other for a long time without wiping each other out, so what's changed? Either the fox has outcompeted the hare in the evolutionary arms race - a natural process or the more likely explanation is that something we've done has hammered the hare population so that the foxes have the upper hand.
> 
> It's pretty much certain that modern agriculture has had a big role to play in hare decline and it's also worth noting:
> 
> ...


The reason the hare and fox interaction is a problem is most certainly the expansion of the human race. 

Does that mean we should let one potentially become extinct?

The grey squirrel doesn't predate birds? 
So an animal is only worthy if it's been here before another?


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> It's terribly distressing for the parents. Baby won't remember it at least thats some comfort.
> 
> My place is like Fort Knox at night, back door and front door both locked, nothing is getting in here unless its let in.


a grizzly wouldn't get in here with bruno and tyson about

in case you forgot


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, I'll make the point one last time so that people understand it 

Culling foxes will not reduce numbers. However, culling unhealthy foxes, and those with an unnatural lack of fear of humans, will help reduce conflict with us, and if/when other foxes move in to that territory, they will have a natural fear of what hunts them. 

Any clearer for those who are struggling to understand the concept of culling? 

And possibly provide free frontal labotomies for those who think it's acceptable to humanise wild animals and encourage them to come into conflict in the first place.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> The reason the hare and fox interaction is a problem is most certainly the expansion of the human race.
> 
> Does that mean we should let one potentially become extinct?
> 
> ...


I think the answer is to get to the real root of the problem and provide suitable habitat, give the hare protection from hunting...a closed season at the very least. As other foxes will only move into the space left by culled foxes...culling wil have to be pretty ruthless to make any difference on them predating hare.

Almost half our terrestrial species are non native, i think its awful the way we accept some species while treating others as vermin...like the grey squirrel for example, the recent 'robust' study by the BTO found there was no evidence that Greys (along with Avian predators) are responsible for song bird declines.. im all for removing them in areas where there are reds..but why want them erradicating everywhere? and some people do!



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, I'll make the point one last time so that people understand it
> 
> Culling foxes will not reduce numbers. However, culling unhealthy foxes, and those with an unnatural lack of fear of humans, will help reduce conflict with us, and if/when other foxes move in to that territory, they will have a natural fear of what hunts them.
> 
> ...


So you want a target cull then? How you propose to do this to ensure we ONLY kill the sick and overly tame?

.

.

.

.


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## LDK1 (Oct 1, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> So you want a target cull then? How you propose to do this to ensure we ONLY kill the sick and overly tame?


I was wondering about that too. I imagine it would take decades to try to modify the behaviour of the urban fox by culling - and even longer to modify the behaviour of humans not dump food everywhere and encourage foxes and other 'vermin'.

Also, what exactly is 'vermin'? Just an animal that is unintentionally interfering with the human way of life. Like 'weeds' are just plants that people don't want in their gardens.

I would have thought that the birds that we spend a fortune on trying to encourage into our gardens carry a fair few diseases themselves. Not to mention all the dropped bird food that feeds the rats and mice.

When we can no longer control the situation we created, the animal becomes 'vermin'.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sell your story to a magazine for money. Get cash for your life story

*Look in the yellow box on the right. Enough said.*


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Sell your story to a magazine for money. Get cash for your life story
> 
> *Look in the yellow box on the right. Enough said.*


:rolleyes5:
The human race keeps hitting new lows, doesn't it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

myshkin said:


> :rolleyes5:
> The human race keeps hitting new lows, doesn't it.


*It sure does, and the trouble is you wonder what's true and what's just hype.*


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *It sure does, and the trouble is you wonder what's true and what's just hype.*


It's just as bad as anyone who wins big on the lottery but wants to remain anonymous - the papers all have a line alongside the story "Do you know this person? Phone us on --------!"

The media are scum!!! :incazzato:

Simples!!!!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LDK1 said:


> I was wondering about that too. I imagine it would take decades to try to modify the behaviour of the urban fox by culling - and even longer to modify the behaviour of humans not dump food everywhere and encourage foxes and other 'vermin'.
> 
> Also, what exactly is 'vermin'? Just an animal that is unintentionally interfering with the human way of life. Like 'weeds' are just plants that people don't want in their gardens.
> 
> ...


The majority of urban foxes, though use to being around humans, are still nervous. My oh works in a foundry & he & his workmates often leave food for the local fox..they only ever catch a glimpse of it ...Unfortunately we have a lot of dreadful Anti fox press feeding peoples mindless paranoia by constantly demonising the animal...this is what brought about the demise of the wolf, its known as the Little Red Riding Hood syndrome, continually feeding peoples fears with monsterous lies until they are prejudice against an animal.

Vermin use to be a label given to animals which spread disease, its beyond me how anyone could look at such a beautiful animal as the fox and think of it as 'vermin'

This is really interesting as its by a pest control company

Pest Control Company Urge Householders Not to Panic over Fox Risk | localtraders.com

Despite a newborn baby being bitten by a fox in the past week, a Scottish pest control company is looking to spread some reassurance to worried people across the UK.

Kevin Newell works for Hawick Humane Wildfire Solutions and in the midst of fox mania following the attack on four-week-old baby Denny Dolan, who underwent surgery after being attacked by a fox, says that parents should not panic as fox attacks are extremely rare. He added that in general foxes are not naturally aggressive creatures but homeowners can take steps to keep foxes away from their homes.

Mr Newell commented that from his experience even feeding a fox has never caused an issue, in fact it would take months for the fox to build up the confidence to come near a window to feed. He added that to keep foxes away from your premises you must find out why they are attracted to your garden, it could be that they are finding food in the compost heap or scooping up food that has fell from a bird table. Many gardeners use fish bones in compost, which foxes are instantly drawn to.

The pest control expert also said that keep refuse areas in order also helps keep foxes at bay. They are however very inquisitive creatures, so Mr Newell recommends that bins are weighed down and kept tightly shut. It's not just food that will attract foxes to your garden; foxes will inhabit your outdoor space in search for shelter and take refuge in overgrown gardens, remove this attraction by keeping your lawn well maintained


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is Brilliant by Tony Parsons...thank god for a bit of quality journalism:arf:

It's a bit rich the NHS putting up Fox Alert posters when we are all far more likely to be killed by the NHS than by a fox.

I reckon our hospitals have *probably killed more people than foxes have killed chickens.

At Stafford Hospital, where 1,200 died in three years, 13 nurses are facing a lifetime ban for the neglect and abuse of patients.

NHS medical director Sir Bruce Keogh is investigating nine other hospital trusts and an estimated 10,000 needless deaths.

And watch out for that MRSA virus!

How many deaths does the fox population have on its paws? Er  none.

When did we become a nation of total hysterics?

What happened to four-week-old Denny Dolan, the South London baby who was attacked by a fox, was every parents worst nightmare.

But lets struggle to keep a little perspective.

If you want to control the urban fox population then you could start by getting local *councils to do the job they are paid for  cleaning up our filthy streets.

It should be carved in stone that every house in the land has its bins collected at least once a week.

And once the councils start doing their job, we could have a crackdown on all those slobs who treat our *pavements like a rubbish dump.

Nobody could fail to be distressed by the sight of that baby in his hospital bed.

But the fact remains that the fox population is not kicking down our doors to eat our children.

The fox wants to avoid human contact. I live in the heart of London and I spot a fox about once or twice a week.

True, they sometimes pause to look with interest at Stan, my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel  is he possibly some kind of sandwich?

But their primal instinct is to stay the hell away from me.

We  stupid, slobby humans who always expect somebody else to clean up after us  have brought the fox population to our door.

And I confess that I always enjoy seeing a fox. The sight of a fox makes my heart beat a bit faster.

It puts a smile on my face  even when they are giving Stan the evil eye.

No, I am not one of those city folk who believes the fox is some kind of cuddly, stuffed toy.

I know its not Basil Brush peering at us from the bushes. I know that if I tried to hug a fox he would cheerfully bite my nose off.

Boom boom!

The fox is wild. Thats what I like about him  the sight of a wild animal so close to home.

Spotting a fox always gives my day a lift  like having a little bit of David *Attenborough on my doorstep.

Calm down, Britain  you are losing your grip.

Dogs are more likely to hurt babies than foxes. And horrible human beings do more harm to children than dogs.

We all wish little Denny Dolan a full and speedy recovery.

The fox *apparently has a sweet tooth for baby poo and experts suggest thats what attracted the one that attacked Denny.

The family say it gained access to their home through a back door with a faulty lock, which they were apparently unable to get the council to fix.

Perhaps they should have fixed it themselves.

The fox is a wild animal. He always will be. But we still have more to fear from each other than we do the fox.

And what a miserable, antiseptic, sterile world this would be if it had no place for the wild fox.

As far as I can tell, the fox would prefer to have as little to do with us as possible.

He is only hanging around our neighbourhoods because human beings are such a bunch of slobs.

We would be far better off having a cull on human slovenliness than the fox population.

We scatter our streets with the remains of kebabs, chips and pizzas and then we wonder why wild animals treat our cities like one big buffet.

Save the fox  cull the slobs!

Tony Parsons on urban foxes: Hunt the slobs who treat our pavements like a rubbish dump - Tony Parsons - Mirror Online


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Last night, just sitting quietly watching tv, about 10ish, the securitl light went on. 

Strolling down the garden path was a fox, it wandered up to the patio door and looked in, looked at me and Holly, fast asleep in her bed thank God, she did not know it ws there.

It started to paw at the glass trying to find a way in. Not untill I got up, waved my arms about and ran across the room did it run away.

If it had been a warm summer evening the door would still have been open and it could have been in my lounge in a flash and who knows what would have happened.

And it was a lot larger than a domestic cat


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> Last night, just sitting quietly watching tv, about 10ish, the securitl light went on.
> 
> Strolling down the garden path was a fox, it wandered up to the patio door and looked in, looked at me and Holly, fast asleep in her bed thank God, she did not know it ws there.
> 
> ...


going by statistics probably Nothing

I would feel incredibly priviledged to have had this experience

.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> It's a bit rich the NHS putting up Fox Alert posters when we are all far more likely to be killed by the NHS than by a fox.


Really?! That's mental ut:


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> going by statistics probably Nothing
> 
> I would feel incredibly priviledged to have had this experience
> 
> .


I am afraid priviledge is the last thing I felt, I do not want foxes that close. I live in a fairly small village and have seen the damage they can do, It can stay in the surrounding farmland and hunt other vermin to survive


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Megan345 said:


> Really?! That's mental ut:


This proves the damage the junk press do by whipping up hysteria ...I know the pro hunt lobby have their own sinister agenda for demonising foxes...but im gob smacked that 'regular' people can be so gullible to be brainwashed by the propaganda

Wythenshawe hospital fox alert after they're spotted near the entrance - Manchester Evening News

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> I am afraid priviledge is the last thing I felt, I do not want foxes that close. I live in a fairly small village and have seen the damage they can do, It can stay in the surrounding farmland and hunt other vermin to survive


They pose practically zero threat to humans or dogs..or even cats, but hey ho.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Maybe, but what about chickens, rabbits etc. We had a goose taken by a fox, one tried to get into a rabbit hutch and steal the babby rabbits, and I have seen the carnage left after one got into the local school farm.

No, foxes should be in the open countryside, not in my garden causing threats to my old, infirm dog.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> Maybe, but what about chickens, rabbits etc. We had a goose taken by a fox, one tried to get into a rabbit hutch and steal the babby rabbits, and I have seen the carnage left after one got into the local school farm.
> 
> No, foxes should be in the open countryside, not in my garden causing threats to my old, infirm dog.


In this day & age we have the means to protect our rabbits & foul Securely from foxes (not to mention other predators like dogs) infact its totally irresponsible not to take precautions to protect them imho, you can hardly blame the fox if it stumbles upon easy pickings, its only trying to survive after all.

.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Bisbow said:


> Maybe, but what about chickens, rabbits etc. We had a goose taken by a fox, one tried to get into a rabbit hutch and steal the babby rabbits, and I have seen the carnage left after one got into the local school farm.
> 
> No, foxes should be in the open countryside, not in my garden causing threats to my old, infirm dog.


Your garden used to be part of their countryside until humans stole it.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I have kept out of this thread because I know my views would upset people but I entered the post about last night just to show that foxes are bcoming unafraid of people. 
This village has been here for hundreds of years, it is mentioned in the Doomsday Book. The only way to protect my garden would be to put a cage over it and dig about 3 feet under the soil.
Yes, foxes are beautiful to look at, but I still do not want them that close to me or mine.
I think I has better bow out now before I say something I may regret and upset too many people. That I do not want to do. I can respect their views and hope that they can respect mine


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> This proves the damage the junk press do by whipping up hysteria ...I know the pro hunt lobby have their own sinister agenda for demonising foxes...but im gob smacked that 'regular' people can be so gullible to be brainwashed by the propaganda
> 
> Wythenshawe hospital fox alert after they're spotted near the entrance - Manchester Evening News
> 
> .


* I am laughing like mad at the link...notice " the fox" was seen near the maternity unit? :lol::lol:*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

What next....robofox? Terminator 4 the fox returns.....the hysteria is amazing. Humans biggest threat is other humans.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

:


JANICE199 said:


> * I am laughing like mad at the link...notice " the fox" was seen near the maternity unit? :lol::lol:*


God i know...its that ridiculous that it is hilarious :lol:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> I have kept out of this thread because I know my views would upset people but I entered the post about last night just to show that foxes are bcoming unafraid of people.
> This village has been here for hundreds of years, it is mentioned in the Doomsday Book. The only way to protect my garden would be to put a cage over it and dig about 3 feet under the soil.
> Yes, foxes are beautiful to look at, but I still do not want them that close to me or mine.
> I think I has better bow out now before I say something I may regret and upset too many people. That I do not want to do. I can respect their views and hope that they can respect mine


I respect your opinion but do you have any proof of this? or are you just going on that one experience to come to that conclusion?

.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

OMG, I left the front door open and our sunday joint on the worktop, a fox came in and stole the joint.....



would this surprise anyone? not here cos foxy walks past every night....


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> * I am laughing like mad at the link...notice " the fox" was seen near the maternity unit? :lol::lol:*


That article has got to be one of the dumbest yet funniest things I've ever read


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Bisbow said:


> Maybe, but what about chickens, rabbits etc. We had a goose taken by a fox, one tried to get into a rabbit hutch and steal the babby rabbits, and I have seen the carnage left after one got into the local school farm.
> 
> No, foxes should be in the open countryside, not in my garden causing threats to my old, infirm dog.


Sounds like your garden is the foxes version of Sainsbury's, goose, rabbit, do you do beef lasagne?

Foxes are land sharks, the biggest predator we have (except for man)


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

We no longer are a foxes Sainsburys. We are now down to one dog and numerous fish in the pond, the fox likes to drink out of it. 

Digging the garden last year we came across a half eaten, rather large koy carp, newly buried because it was still shiny and fresh. Not one of ours, ours are common gold fish.

Was is a foxes dinner or a cats, no idea but I thought it a bit big for a cat


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

and if a farmer shoots a vixen and 5 fox cubs starve?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> We no longer are a foxes Sainsburys. We are now down to one dog and numerous fish in the pond, the fox likes to drink out of it.
> 
> Digging the garden last year we came across a half eaten, rather large koy carp, newly buried because it was still shiny and fresh. Not one of ours, ours are common gold fish.
> 
> Was is a foxes dinner or a cats, no idea but I thought it a bit big for a cat


If it was buried i would say it was a fox...but this doesnt mean it was the culprit that 'fished' the koi out of someones pond, it may have been dropped by a heron & found, died & someone buried in their garden the fox smelled it dug it up and cached it in yours...they are very resourceful little animals thats why they are one of natures survivors.


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## coral. (May 11, 2011)

im a fan of fox's, i do like them, i think there beautiful animals and fasinating!
but dont get me wrong, what happend to that baby is heart breaking beyond words and no family should ever have to go through that!
& i also dont like fox's eating chickens, as silly as it sounds i would rather humans & animals all be vegetarians


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