# Advice on hand rearing



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

If anyone has been following the thread about blood group incompatibility i have now found out that 25% of my litter is at risk.

Does anyone have any advice on hand rearing and what i will need?

I currently have cimicat and a catac foster bottle.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I use these:

Mikki Mothering Kit-Hyperdrug

find that kits take to them better than bottles, also this:

Col-late Cat Breeder Nutri-Drops 30ml-Hyperdrug

cimi-cat

I buy all this everytime I have alitter anyway just incase so its always good to have around.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I am very choosy about the type of bottles I use... I prefer the squeezable plastic ones with small teets (hate the hard plastic ones) ...but many people prefer those banana shaped "open top" glass bottles, especially with newborns with a weak sucking reflex, these can be far better. But again this is all personal choice.. I just know if I hadn't hand reared before I would be wanting a selection of bottles and teets for the first time.

oh and just incase... have syringes at hand. No bigger than 2.5 ml. If you can get the really skinny ones that vets use to to get medicine out of bottles (you know when you stick the syringe into a medicine bottle then flip the bottle upwards then suck the fluid down into the syringe) well those are very good for syringing very young kittens. And a dropper (bulb dropper I think they are called) is also something i woudl have on hand... if the kitten has no sucking reflex and you're not having much success with syringng (I am not a fan of syringing very small kittens) then a bulb dropper can be a life saver.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

like TJE i would suggest you buy the

lactol/sherleys/beaphar bottle (same bottle just different brand names). 

Its much easier to control the flow and much easier to master as a newbie. TJE is also right that i personally always reach for the glass bottles, but they take quite a bit of mastering and not something i would suggest for your first time at feeding!

My favourite milk for handrearing is the royal canin.

Can i offer some friendly advice? Get hold of your nearest rescue (who uses foster mums), and see if they will put you in touch with a foster mum experienced in hand rearing. I am 100% positive that for a small donation you could have someone on hand who has all the experience you need. They will have dealt with handrearing much much more than your average breeder, and be in the best position to help you. Editing to add, that if any of the kittens are weaker then its quite possible that a foster mum for rescue will be experienced with tube feeding and so could very well save their lives!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I like Royal Canin milk too ... used to use KMR but now I've got used to Royal Canin I really like it. I never get any lumps.

But I hate their bottles with a passion. Useless stupid things they are.

The Lactol / Shellys / Beaphar ones... yep, those are my favourites. 

Do you have a reliable heat source for the kittens ??? 

Also make sure the environement they're kept in isn't too dry or you could get skin problems .... what with central heating and everything sealed fro draughts ... rooms can get very dry. A soaked face cloth usually does the trick, or one of those "hang on the radiator" thingies filled with water.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

yep moist atmosphere is essential

as is a good heat mat


ooh and some cotton wool (face pads) for cleaning up milky chops and stimulating bowels


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If the only issue is blood group you will only have to feed those kittens for 24 hours, not hand rear them. The gut won't absorb the antibodies after that time and they can safely feed from their mother. Has anyone suggested you get in some colostrum for them? They won't get any from their mum because you'll need to remove them during that crucial time when the gut will absorb antibodies.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Alison, if you haven't read this yet, I think you should: The Cat Breeders Handbook - Google Books

It's from _The Cat Breeder's Handbook_. I have the book, but I found the two pages from the section on feline blood types and neonatal isoerythryolysis, and it includes a few ways of handling the kittens for the first 24 hours.

I would also consider making a wrap for her out of a few layers of old stocking, or even better (less likely to be pushed out of the way) a converted babygrow, so that you don't have to separate her from the kittens, especially as this is her first litter.

It really would be a pity if she ended up rejecting the whole litter because she didn't get to bond with them when her hormones are at their peak soon after birth, and then you would end up hand-rearing the entire litter, which is not only exhausting and difficult, but you are more likely to lose some or all of them if you have to do it.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Ive hand reared many tiny pups over the years , yorkies and papps and they are terrible for getting them to suck , much harder than kittens and the best bottle to use in my opinion is the shirleys beapher bottle , the teats are softer than any of the others so feel a bit more natural for them and you can slightly squeeze the bottle a bit if you need to to get them going , the glass bananna shaped ones are ver difficult to control if you have never done it before so id say stay clear of these or you could easily end up aspirating the kittens .

As atlantys has said get something to make some kind of body stocking for the mum so the kittens can still stay with her and she can bond with them plus she'll do all the cleaning they need to stimulate their bladder and bowels , when ive had a bitch in the past with eclampsia and she has not been allowed to feed the pups ive used a pair of tights around the bitch so i could feed the pups and then put them back with her .


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Echo the advice re colustrum etc I used a tiny syringe when I had to handfeed millie for a few days before she latched on as I found the bottles tricky and so did she so my advice would be to have allsorts of supplies at hand!

Lots of hugs and best wishes on this Alison - touch wood all the babies will be fine :thumbup:


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Can i offer some friendly advice? Get hold of your nearest rescue (who uses foster mums), and see if they will put you in touch with a foster mum experienced in hand rearing. I am 100% positive that for a small donation you could have someone on hand who has all the experience you need. They will have dealt with handrearing much much more than your average breeder, and be in the best position to help you. Editing to add, that if any of the kittens are weaker then its quite possible that a foster mum for rescue will be experienced with tube feeding and so could very well save their lives!


Although i appreciate your advice and i could see how it would be helpful for some people, it's not for me. I used to work in my local animal shelter and do have a lot of experience with many kinds of animals. 
I have hand reared chinchillas and guinea pigs before so have a good idea of what i'm doing, just never cats.
I am also quite a private sort of person when it comes to my home etc.

I just want to be absolutely sure i've got all areas covered!!

I will get the feeding bottle recommended and will also get the col-late breeder drops and a tub of kitten colostrum.

I'm not sure about the stocking or babygrow idea, sounds good but im not sure how this would work, suppose i'll have to try. I'd be so worried that it moved and one or more of the kittens got to a nipple, id be up all night!! (i'm going to be anyway lol)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

About the milk, do you just feed them as much as they will take?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> About the milk, do you just feed them as much as they will take?


I don't.... I stick pretty religiously to the instructions on the pack (each make has slightly different feeding guidelines) ... obviously if they weren't gaining enough then I'd up the amount... but I don't think that's going to apply to you as your's if I understand it correctly are only going to be bottle fed for the first 24 hours.

You _can_ overfeed kittens and it's just as dangerous as underfeeeding... so especially in the early days (week) I personally stick to the feeding guidelines on the pack... but, another very experienced foster mum of orphan kittens that I know... she doesn't, she plays everything by ear and by feeling (and I must say I have never known any one better than her at hand-rearing). But I stick to feeding guidelines.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I will follow the instructions to be on the safe side.

I take it as it's only 24 hours i won't need to use the milk, just the colostrum and col-late drops?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

hmmmmm, I don't live in the UK (I live in Holland) so bear in mind we could be using totally different products... the colustrum I have here is for the first 36 hours. But I have used other stuff in the past that you mixed through the normal KMR milk, and yet other stuff that was given in a syringe after bottle feeding KMR. I have a feeling it's going to vary product by product... my gut feeling says (again, lol) to follow the instructions on the pack. 

(sorry that sounds really like I don't want to help you... I don't mean it that way at all.... I just don't know a definitive answer as I have used different products in different countries at different times).


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I will just follow all instructions on the packets.

Thanks to every person who has given their advice, it really is very much appreciated.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I forgot about the colostrum (the one i use is colate colostrum) - so apologies for missing that out.

SOOO PLEASED to hear you have experience in handrearing... so many people dont (not that its a failing not to, but it makes it so much easier that you do!)

As you are only planning on feeding for the first 24 hours, I would think you can get away with just the nutridrops and colostrum (and if you have some - lectade incase they become dehydrated or constipated). You already have some milk replacer, jsut dont forget to get some decent bottles.

xx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I suspect they would probably be perfectly OK with nothing at all for 24 hours and I understand that is exactly what many British breeders do if they have blood type incompatability - newborns are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for and there is someone here whose kittens almost certainly got nothing at all for the first 40 hours and now they are huge. It is common for milk not to kick in until the last kitten is born which can be a delay of many hours. I have heard two stories (both from reliable sources) of newborns who cannot possibly have had more than 24 hours with their mothers being found alive three days later. So, I wouldn't worry too much.

I use a 2ml syringe and feed as much as they will take.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> I suspect they would probably be perfectly OK with nothing at all for 24 hours and I understand that is exactly what many British breeders do if they have blood type incompatability - newborns are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for and there is someone here whose kittens almost certainly got nothing at all for the first 40 hours and now they are huge. It is common for milk not to kick in until the last kitten is born which can be a delay of many hours. I have heard two stories (both from reliable sources) of newborns who cannot possibly have had more than 24 hours with their mothers being found alive three days later. So, I wouldn't worry too much.
> 
> I use a 2ml syringe and feed as much as they will take.
> 
> Liz


Seriously liz???

Just because a kitten CAN survive 24 (or even up to 90) hours without any form of food or hydration, does that mean it WILL? or SHOULD?

So many variables here, how many kittens in the litter, what day are they born on, what is their body condition like, how well hydrated was mum (has she eaten or drunk anything in the last few days - many queens dont)?, what are their weights like?, how warm are they being kept?

FFS Ive heard of human babies surviving a fall from a hotel balcony, but that doesnt mean i would let my kids play out there!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I have heard two stories (both from reliable sources) of newborns who cannot possibly have had more than 24 hours with their mothers being found alive three days later. So, I wouldn't worry too much.Liz


sorry but a study group of 2 cats.....

that's not exactly wide.

I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary... i.e. kittens that do die.

I would NEVER leave newborn kittens unfed for 24 hours. NEVER!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I suppose it depends what you mean by unfed. I'd consider nutridrops and colostrum only 'unfed' but presumably many, if not most kittens are only getting colostrum for the first 24 hours in the natural course of things anyway. I don't think I'd be happy simply leaving newborns for that first 24 hours but I strongly suspect that's my sensibilities rather than the true need of the kitten.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

the definition of unfed I disagreed with was the "do nothing at all" for the first 24 hours as put forward by Liz.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I suppose everyone has different views and ways of doing things, what works one time may fail with another litter.

I agree that there are many variable factors involved. A low birth weight litter would be very likely to perish left with nothing, but a larger, stronger litter would probably be ok.

I wouldn't be able to leave my litter with nothing, even for just the 24 hours, i would be too worried they would perish.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Seriously liz???
> 
> Just because a kitten CAN survive 24 (or even up to 90) hours without any form of food or hydration, does that mean it WILL? or SHOULD?
> 
> So many variables here, how many kittens in the litter, what day are they born on, what is their body condition like, how well hydrated was mum (has she eaten or drunk anything in the last few days - many queens dont)?, what are their weights like?, how warm are they being kept?


If you are asking, would I do it, no I would not. But I rather doubt that there would be any major problems if they didn't get fed properly. Assuming they are warm, of course. I don't think Mum's diet before birth has anythign to do with the condition of the kittens except in extremis - the unborn kittens simply take what they need!

Liz


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

lizward said:


> I don't think Mum's diet before birth has anythign to do with the condition of the kittens except in extremis - the unborn kittens simply take what they need!
> 
> Liz


I would tend to agree with this. If a queen isn't fed well then she will lose condition and weight compared to one that is well fed on good food who would be a healthy weight.

I know of a breeder who feeds low quality foods and her queens are very thin after a birth.

It makes sense that if good food is fed that the queen will retain her weight and size after the birth.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> . I don't think Mum's diet before birth has anythign to do with the condition of the kittens except in extremis - the unborn kittens simply take what they need!
> 
> Liz


I did not mention her DIET, I asked how well hydrated she was. A dehyrated queen WILL give birth to dehydrated kittens - its something I have seen happen a few times!


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Is the only way to test this by their skin?

I'll get some Lectade just in case, always better to be prepared for everything


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

alisondalziel said:


> Is the only way to test this by their skin?
> 
> I'll get some Lectade just in case, always better to be prepared for everything


in kittens look for

dry mouth - tongue gets stuck to roof of mouth or dry appearance
sunken eyes (even when closed they look sort of sunk in an shrivelled). The gums should be wet and shiny not dry and dull.

gums - the capillary refil time is extended, so when pressed takes longer than nomal to pink up again (is also a sign of shock so not necessarily indicative in the first 24 hours from birth)
constipation (again not necessarily going to be obvious in a newborn)

During birth signs which can indicate possible dehydratin include excessive or markedly decreased birth fluids (excessive if there is a problem with the placenta, kittens can be dehydrated not mum - not really applicable in this case).

Skin test is useful for mum, but in kittens they tend to have a little excess skin so its harder to tell - still useful though.

Lethargy, the cycle starts. Kitten is dehydrated, gets weak, hunger dissapears so dehydration continues.

Urine, more yellow than normal, sometimes stronger smelling but not always.

None are definate on their own, but should always be ringing warning bells for any breeder/owner.

xx


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks, i'll keep an eye out for those signs.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I did not mention her DIET, I asked how well hydrated she was. A dehyrated queen WILL give birth to dehydrated kittens - its something I have seen happen a few times!


I've never had a dehydrated queen, surely this would only happen in extremis. It's hardly likely to happen to a healthy queen in a domestic setting.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> I've never had a dehydrated queen, surely this would only happen in extremis. It's hardly likely to happen to a healthy queen in a domestic setting.
> 
> Liz


Liz please stop being so laxadaisical towards things. Yes its unlikely to happen but it COULD. Its always better to be prepared. The op wanted to know the risks, and she got them.

I'm surprised that you dont consider all the risks associated with breeding to be important. The more information the breeder has about what could happen and what to look out for the better surely?

Its not about scaremongering its about informing people, and if they know what to do when things go wrong then i fail to see how that can be a bad thing?

You are experienced enough to know these signs, but the majority of posters asking the questions on here are not. Personally I would rather be safe than sorry.

For the record:

Dehydration in queens can come from a variety of sources. The three main ones are as follows;

1 - diarrhoea. So common in queens in the last week that its considered normal. If the queen isnt a big drinker or also loses her appetite (again so common in the last days its considered nomal) dehydration very quickly sets in.

2 - Kidneys, pregnancy puts extra strain on the kidneys, and sometimes they malfunction and produce more urine than normal which dehydrates the queen.

3 - lack of appetite for food (wet food i mean not dry) or water. (see number 1)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I've been breeding for 18 years and have never come across this, so I rather doubt it is common. In my experience queens drink vast amounts before birth. However, if you've experienced something else then of course you should alert new breeders to the possibilities. I just find the constant scaremongering on this forum over the top, that's all. Cats have been giving birth successfully for thousands of years!

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> I've been breeding for 18 years and have never come across this, so I rather doubt it is common. In my experience queens drink vast amounts before birth. However, if you've experienced something else then of course you should alert new breeders to the possibilities. I just find the constant scaremongering on this forum over the top, that's all. Cats have been giving birth successfully for thousands of years!
> 
> Liz


so have humans, but without the modern medicines the mortality rate was much different!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I've been breeding for 18 years and have never come across this, so I rather doubt it is common. In my experience queens drink vast amounts before birth. However, if you've experienced something else then of course you should alert new breeders to the possibilities. *I just find the constant scaremongering on this forum over the top, that's all. Cats have been giving birth successfully for thousands of years!*Liz


Liz, the flip side of this is... what you see as some poeple scaremongering.... well other people see you as being so laid back that you could be accused of being horizontal.

Like I said on the other thread, there's a fine line between being relaxed but responsible and being downright lacsadaisical.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think that there is a place for "scaremongering", but that is perhaps the wrong word.

I think realism is a better word.
There are better vet facilities and care nowadays and I think also that the internet is a fantastic resource too. The internet can put you in touch with so much info that previously you could only learn from vets or from buying large tomes or subscribing to specialist magazines. It puts you in direct contact with people who have wide ranging experiences too.

The days of the pregnant moggie who will manage "all by herself", or the breeder's lore learnt at shows with no basis in fact, should be gone. It is now possible to save sickly kittens and pregnant mums suffering with extra knowledge and not just to put all losses down to bad luck. The more "scaremongering" there is can in fact save lives and for that it is no bad thing, IMO.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

My queen, Bibi's milk didn't come in for 2hrs after the birth of the last kitten and 7hrs after the first one. 

I panicked and thought - 'oh no she has no milk', but I rang two other breeders and they assured me the kittens sucking would most likely bring it in and it did eventually. 

In the days after the birth, I did try to top the kittens up with hand feeding a few times but they were having absolutely none of it, no matter what I tried teat/bottle wise, so I left it to mum in the end and they all developed well.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I think that there is a place for "scaremongering", but that is perhaps the wrong word.
> 
> I think realism is a better word.
> There are better vet facilities and care nowadays and I think also that the internet is a fantastic resource too. The internet can put you in touch with so much info that previously you could only learn from vets or from buying large tomes or subscribing to specialist magazines. It puts you in direct contact with people who have wide ranging experiences too.
> ...


Thank you so much for that Lauren.

I dont like the word scaremongering used against people like myself and BBM and Aurelia. I do agree realism is a far better word.

as they say

_one mans meat is another mans poison
one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist_

well I think its much the same in this breeding-rearing lark

Lizward views some of us as scaremongering panic merchants

and some of us view Lizward (and at times some other breeders) as being so laid back that at times her (their) advise verges on the irresponsible/lacsadaisical.


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