# Ignorant ill mannered dog!



## jakey01 (Oct 9, 2010)

Hi all, Firstly, great web site. My problem is my 2 yr old black lab. On the whole he's a well behaved lovely family dog and great with my children, but over the last year he really has become difficult. He just seems dominant in the way he acts in general, not at all aggressive, but for instance if he wants petting he will with force nose on you, barge you out of the way to get through a door, when outside will not listen to callback if something interests him.
We joined a dog training group and after the 4th session I was told my dog was ignorant, ill mannered and rude! The trainer didn't explain why and because I was in front of 11 other dog owners , very embarrased. I never returned.
Just to top it off I was playing with him the other night (crouched down on the floor) suddenly he cocked his leg and peed on me!!
Go ahead, laugh, lol. 
I've owned 3 dogs in the past and nothing has been like this. We also have a springer spaniel of the same age who is totally the opposite. I know its a rank thing going on, but how do I solve it?Many thanks in advance.


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

i always use this method........nilf nothing in life is free works very well for me 

is better for u to google it as i cant explain it as well


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

ddb said:


> i always use this method........nilf nothing in life is free works very well for me
> 
> is better for u to google it as i cant explain it as well


:scared: No No No NO!!! this is a horrid method and very cruel, this is awful and I can not abide it, it's made up by some moron who could do witha good kick in the balls 

OP-Sounds like you had a moron of a trainer, I would recommend looking into ADPT find someone registered with them in the local area.

Also has he been snipped as this sounds like might be a case of too much testosterone also.

Someone whose not half a sleep should be able to help you more but please stay away from NILF


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> :scared: No No No NO!!! this is a horrid method and very cruel, this is awful and I can not abide it, it's made up by some moron who could do witha good kick in the balls
> 
> not sayin its the the best in the world but cant see where it can be called VERY CRUEL..................i never shout or use physical force


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> :scared: No No No NO!!! this is a horrid method and very cruel, this is awful and I can not abide it, it's made up by some moron who could do witha good kick in the balls
> 
> OP-Sounds like you had a moron of a trainer, I would recommend looking into ADPT find someone registered with them in the local area.
> 
> ...


Why is it cruel? Nothing in my life is free


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

How is NILIF cruel? Sure if you don't give the animal the things they need but you're teaching the dog a polite way to ask for things.

Look for a positive trainer, ignore anyone spouting dominance/pack leader crap it's well crap and isn't reality. Teach him to sit and stay before you open the door. When he goes to move shut the door again. 

The whole point of recall is to make yourself more interesting than anything else. Use a long lead on a harness not a collar and call him back. Treats, huge amounts of praise make a big fuss. It has to be the best thing ever for him to come back to you.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Why is it cruel? Nothing in my life is free


I'm of to bed and falling asleep so asking me the wrong time to explain but here's a minor article I came across some time back.

COAPE - Centre of Applied Pet Ethology


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's how I understand it. You ask the dog to sit before feeding it/putting the lead on/going for a walk/getting petted whatever. The dog quickly learns it wants something it sits. Unless of course it's evil to ask a dog to do anything. I don't see anything cruel in that unless of course you refuse to give the dog anything


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## jakey01 (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you so much for the replys guys.Some of the above i have tried,example,i let my other dog go off leash and keep my lab leashed,to train my lab I have with me moms best roast chicken in gravy sauce to make me more attractive,,he just ignores it!!!he just wants to go?


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Here's how I understand it. You ask the dog to sit before feeding it/putting the lead on/going for a walk/getting petted whatever. The dog quickly learns it wants something it sits. Unless of course it's evil to ask a dog to do anything. I don't see anything cruel in that unless of course you refuse to give the dog anything


apparently its mental torture...............


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

jakey01 said:


> Thank you so much for the replys guys.Some of the above i have tried,example,i let my other dog go off leash and keep my lab leashed,to train my lab I have with me moms best roast chicken in gravy sauce to make me more attractive,,he just ignores it!!!he just wants to go?


That's why you keep him on a long lead it gives you a bit more control


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## jakey01 (Oct 9, 2010)

Sry i should say he HAS had the snip.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ddb said:


> apparently its mental torture...............


Utterly ridiculous. The dog is learning to communicate to you that it wants something in a much better way than barking or whatever


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Did you have him from a pup and did you do any previous training with him apart from the failed attempt with the idiot trainer where you took him? Basically now hes a yob. Has he just started getting worse recently?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Ive just re read your post and i did miss a few things. I see you said hes been doing it for a year and his 2 now. Problem is all dogs go through a stage where they try to assert their freedom and it figures thats why it started at a year. Even dogs that recalled before that were previously well trained can go through a wonky stage and stop recalling and listening. However if he had no or little formal training before this time and wasnt checked when he started it ie pushing his boundaries and getting away with it he will carry on doing it thanks very much. He will do it because he can. You need to start basic training with him. Might be a good idea to do some individual training and some walks with him alone. Even if you do 10 to 15mins a day in the garden. Teaching him to sit down wait etc. Use treats labs are usually food driven. Another thing you can try is recall to a whistle. Just walk around with the treats and whistle. You should find he will have attention on you then just blow the whistle treat whistle treat as your walking. After a couple days let him in the garden stay inside and when hes been out a min or too blow the whistle and see if he comes for the treat. Do this for a few days. Then take him out on an extending lead and see if he will come back with the whistle. Then progress to a long line. Cant give you time factors play it by ear. Then hopefully you can progress to enclosed area and so on. Just keep up the training be consistant. Make him sit before his dinner. Dont let him shove his way through doors make him sit and wait. Another good way to gain attention and make it fun. Is play with a toy or ball but he sits before you throw it. Then progress to sit wait before you throw it. Then get him to bring it back. Later then teach drop. Then sit wait before you throw again. This way hes learning several commands and impulse control and a way to learn from play. Its also a crafty way to teach recall. Also i would try to find a training school and take him again. He will benefit. Hope this helps.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My puppy doesn't have to sit for everything. He does have to sit for his toys to be thrown-stops him jumping up, to go through a door-he was scratching and if he barks I ignore him until he sits-calms him down. I wouldn't think it was cruel though?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I think it's all a matter of degree.

Certainly, going too far with NILIF and making a dog earn EVERY SINGLE THING can't be nice for a dog. IMO only a real control freak would go that far anyway though. 

I think that maybe the term is slightly offputting; perhaps if it were renamed "Responding To Cues Gets Dogs Things They Like!" it would sound less, I dunno, unfriendly. 

I try to randomly give my dog cues throughout the day; apart from the practical ones I'll occasionally ask her to drop into an emergency down, especially if I've got my back to her, or she's in another room but still in my sight. We practise recall. If she gets the trimmings off the Sunday roast, she has to maybe come into heel position before she gets it. I think it makes sense to keep them attentive to cues, especially when they hear your voice all day and there's the possibility that you might just end up being background noise. And having them sit and wait before going through doorways etc is a good way to remind them that rewards don't HAVE to be edible. 

But I'm just imagining living in an environment where I wasn't in control of anything. Where, for example, I couldn't just spontaneously go up and give my OH a hug if I felt like it. Before anyone jumps on me, yes I am fully aware that dogs aren't people but I'm fairly sure that any living creature would find a world where they could NEVER do anything just because they felt like it fairly depressing.


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## ghengis (Oct 17, 2010)

ya know i think we all have different ideas on how we train our dogs,me perosnaly i like to take a little from everything and put it together the nilf way is good like getting them to sit for food and putting leash on, helps to keep them calm, and if you have food aggression. well you can see it can be important there.

i hope you are able to retrain your lab and enjoy the fun of having one too


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

NILIF if taken to excess can be extremely stressful for a dog. No attention, no food, no warmth. no company, no bedding no... anything. Unless the dog `performs` Except that the dog is probably not sure what is needed. The dog is made to feel unwanted and insecure to get a particular trick or behaviour. 
I prefer to go at it the other way - reward the behaviour I want - that way the dog gains confidence and self-control. You can couple this with ignoring bad behaviour, but I prefer to prevent it where possible as the dog learns faster. 

So- with your dog, I`d train him in the house first. Teach him that certain behaviours are good. Get a reliable recall in the garden before trying it on a line outside. Use a whistle if you`ve been using your voice because he has learned that badly. 
Have a read of Jean Donaldson`s The Culture Clash for basic behaviour & training.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have never heard of NILIF. I am going to google it now.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

What a load of old codswallop! I can see the point of making him sit for his lead, door open or even his dinner, but if my dogs want a cuddle, they can damned well have one! Any time they like. This sounds like the Jan Fennell idea of ignore the dog.


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> What a load of old codswallop! I can see the point of making him sit for his lead, door open or even his dinner, but if my dogs want a cuddle, they can damned well have one! Any time they like. This sounds like the Jan Fennell idea of ignore the dog.


never said my dogs dont get lots of cuddles or love and care..........and my dogs are happy and are always pleased to see me


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ddb said:


> never said my dogs dont get lots of cuddles or love and care..........and my dogs are happy and are always pleased to see me


I wasn't talking about you, just the methods on the website. Some of what they say would be good, but not for everything.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

jakey01 said:


> Hi all, Firstly, great web site. My problem is my 2 yr old black lab. On the whole he's a well behaved lovely family dog and great with my children, but over the last year he really has become difficult. *He just seems dominant in the way he acts in general*, not at all aggressive, but for instance if he wants petting he will with force nose on you, barge you out of the way to get through a door, when outside will not listen to callback if something interests him.
> We joined a dog training group and after the 4th session *I was told my dog was ignorant, ill mannered and rude!* The trainer didn't explain why and because I was in front of 11 other dog owners , very embarrased. I never returned.
> Just to top it off I was playing with him the other night (crouched down on the floor) *suddenly he cocked his leg and peed on me!!*
> Go ahead, laugh, lol.
> I've owned 3 dogs in the past and nothing has been like this. We also have a springer spaniel of the same age who is totally the opposite. *I know its a rank thing going on, but how do I solve it?Many thanks in advance*.


Hi there,

Firstly I would say that you were unlucky with the trainer you chose. Anyone who calls a dog that needs work "ignorant, ill mannered and rude" and then doesn't allow you back or offer an explanation shouldn't be training dogs. Period. 
Plus 11 plus dogs per class?! Sounds far too many to me!

Sounds like you had a lucky escape. That's why IMO it's really important to look for a trainer who you know is well trained, only uses positive reinforcement and modern methods and preferably is recognised and affiliated with a reputable board or association, the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) or the APBC for example.

Take a look at their sites here, you can look for local trainers on their sites:
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK
The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Could you give us some more info on your lab and situation please?
Have you had him since a pup?
How does he get on with the springer? (Same/ different ages?)
What is he fed on?
How often is he walked?
Have you done any training with prior to your recent negative experience with the rubbish trainer?
Is he intact/neutered?
How does he get on with other dogs/people?

I've bolded the parts of your post and your perception of your dog's behaviour that most worry me.
You claim he acts in a dominant nature? : I really would try and forget dominance theory. It is a very outdated, misleading and flawed theory which has been disproved time and time again. Dog's have no perception of self and so have no ability to perceive themselves as superior to others. They are simply opportunists and will do what they can get away with.If they have never been taught how to behave, they will perform rehearsed and reinforced bolshy OTT behaviours.They don't what else to do, so why not?
It really does sound like you just need to teach your dog some self-control and manners, but do so in a kind, super positive way. 
You mentioned he peed on you when you were playing? Could that just not be because he got over aroused and over-excited?

I would try and seek the advice of a decent positive reinforcement only (preferably APDT) behaviourist who should be able to help you.

In the meantime here are a few ideas:


> if he wants petting he will with force nose on you


Sounds like he is bored and wants some attention! Perhaps interacting with him more and encouraging to "work" for his toys, treats and your attention might be a good idea? Can he sit or do any basic behaviours? I would also reinforcing him around the house for just chilling out and doing nothing- IMO it is good for high energy breeds to learn to just have some down time. 
If he puts his nose on you for attention, then just ignore him totally until he settles down, then fuss him once he is being a little bit more polite. Reward the good, ignore the bad! :thumbup:


> barge you out of the way to get through a door


Again nothing to do with dominance. Does he do this when he is onlead about to go out? Why not do some fun lead work training with him so that he doesn't barge so enthusiastically out of the door and walks on a more slack lead. It makes no difference to him with you go out first or he does, the only factor is that he wants to get somewhere (out walking). You need to teach him how you DO want him to behave rather than the opposite.


> when outside will not listen to callback if something interests him


Have you ever taught him to recall? Again it's very much a case here of him never being taught how he should behave. Naturally he'll find the distraction more interesting, so you need to become more exciting and interesting. I would also suggest keeping him on a long line on walks if you feel he won't recall whilst you are teaching a recall. You are setting the dog up to succeed and not to rehearse going after interesting distractions. 
Have a read of this article:
Why wont my dog come back?  David Ryan CCAB

The following articles on how dogs learn and a positive reinforcement method called clicker training may also be of interest:
How Dogs Learn

Clicker Training 

Keep us updated :thumbup:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Firstly; Your trainer should take at look at herself as I think what she said about your dog applies to her. Does she think he's human and trying to get back at you? Ridiculous thing to say for a trainer!
Secondly; my Malamute, Flynn was just like that and he's now 2 1/2. I know I spoilt him and he'd get things for nothing, so he eventually started to take advantage and demand things by nudging me, even harder if I ignored him.
Thirdly; There is absolutely nothing wrong in teaching your dog he has to do what you want him to. It'll be hard for him but he'll soon learn - Flynn has and I thaught him with the "nothing in life is free" technique. As soon as he realised he had to do something in order to get something he was very keen to oblige. Even being let out in the garden my dogs heve to sit, it makes them so much more calm.
So i'd say give Nothing in Life is Free a try - you've nothing to lose and I think saying it's mental cruelty is mental in itself!

Sniffer dogs only sniff because they get something for it - they work, they gain - simples!

Just to add - my guys don't have to work for kisses and cuddles though!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I've never heard of NILIF until I read this thread and so I googled it to have a look ........ and guess what? Sounds just like the way I have trained my dogs for years! It's just a fancy name for normal dogs training. 

Can someone explain to me why it is cruel to tell five dogs to "sit" while I put five bowls of dog food down, or to tell five dogs to "sit" before I give them a treat? The command I use at mealtimes is "Right, let's have some good manners" and the five of them sit in a semi-circle until the bowls are down. Surely this is better than having them jumping about all over the place, knocking bowls out of my hand, growling at each other so that they can be first to get at the bowls etc etc? Similarly with making them sit before we go out the door (surely a must to stop us tripping up over a tangle of five dogs all trying to get out of the door at once?) or training them to get off the bed/settee etc when we say so - why is any of it cruel?

All my five are happy, loving, much-loved, well-adjusted dogs who love cuddles and get so much attention my mother was constantly coming out with the old-wives tale of "It's a wonder you don't give those dogs mange the way you're always petting them".

Now I must admit I only read the first couple of articles I googled and so there could be more to this than meets the eye at first glance - so am I missing something here about this NILIF business or what?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I've never heard of NILIF until I read this thread and so I googled it to have a look ........ and guess what? Sounds just like the way I have trained my dogs for years! It's just a fancy name for normal dogs training.
> 
> Can someone explain to me why it is cruel to tell five dogs to "sit" while I put five bowls of dog food down, or to tell five dogs to "sit" before I give them a treat? The command I use at mealtimes is "Right, let's have some good manners" and the five of them sit in a semi-circle until the bowls are down. Surely this is better than having them jumping about all over the place, knocking bowls out of my hand, growling at each other so that they can be first to get at the bowls etc etc? Similarly with making them sit before we go out the door (surely a must to stop us tripping up over a tangle of five dogs all trying to get out of the door at once?) or training them to get off the bed/settee etc when we say so - why is any of it cruel?
> 
> All my five are happy, loving, much-loved, well-adjusted dogs who love cuddles and get so much attention *my mother was constantly coming out with the old-wives tale of "It's a wonder you don't give those dogs mange the way you're always petting them".*Now I must admit I only read the first couple of articles I googled and so there could be more to this than meets the eye at first glance - so am I missing something here about this NILIF business or what?


That must be the only old wives' tale my mother didn't know! Never heard that one before! I think the basic concept is fine and, as you say, how most of us will train our dogs to do most things. I think the argument against it is that they seem to be saying they should do something before anything is given, even a cuddle. Ferdie always comes and lays his head on my lap. Am I supposed to ignore him till he goes away? I couldn't possibly.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

jakey01 said:


> Thank you so much for the replys guys.Some of the above i have tried,example,i let my other dog go off leash and keep my lab leashed,to train my lab I have with me moms best roast chicken in gravy sauce to make me more attractive,,he just ignores it!!!he just wants to go?


Well... how would you feel if your friends were running about having fun and up until now you were alowed to join in, but suddenly you have to stay very close to your parent and while they are trying to make you pay attention... all the while you are thinking you want to run?? 

You need to build up in these situations. 
You have to start off with your dog somewhere there are NO distractions. 
THEN build up to minor distractions and Very gruadually work up to bigger distractions. You can't just expect him to suddely want to pay attention.

Working on the recall, in the house, just say his name (when he is not looking at you) then when he looks, give him the treat. Have a treat that is Only for teaching this.
Then when he is getting it, start randomly calling his name from another room and giving him the treat.

Also dog 'ping pong' is quite good for teaching come, but you need two people for this and call the dog to eachother and treating and increasing the distance. Its particularly helpul out in the field you can start off with him on a long line (or I use a plastic coated washing line attached to the end of a lead, cos its longer) and walking along keep practicing calling him to eachother.

When he is getting the hang of it, you can start doing it around your other dog too.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> That must be the only old wives' tale my mother didn't know! Never heard that one before! I think the basic concept is fine and, as you say, how most of us will train our dogs to do most things. I think the argument against it is that they seem to be saying they should do something before anything is given, even a cuddle. Ferdie always comes and lays his head on my lap. Am I supposed to ignore him till he goes away? I couldn't possibly.


Ah, didn't realise that was part of it. I agree with you - I could not possibly ignore any of my dogs if they wanted a bit of loving.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Ferdie always comes and lays his head on my lap. Am I supposed to ignore him till he goes away? I couldn't possibly.


No but if he was a dog that jumped all over you you would ask him to sit nicely first


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

when i had 2 bull mastiffs it didn't take long using NILF until you didnt need to use the sit command the dogs start to do it anyway, as soon as i picked the leads up and call them they would come over and sit (tails wagging). the same with feeding them


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Like I said it worked with Flynn - you just can't have a 57kgs dog nudging you and getting his own way all the time. With a known dominant breed that would be asking for trouble later on.

If he comes up for a nice calm cuddle though that's a different matter. He also never goes out of the door for a walk if he's excited, I wait til he's calm or he'd drag me all over the place.

Patience is a virtue and that applies to dogs too, lol.


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

i could both of mine at same time, had both leads in 1 hand and they were about 17 stone between them 
was nice to see the gangs of yobs hanging about just part to make the path way clear for me lol


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ddb said:


> i could both of mine at same time, had both leads in 1 hand and they were about 17 stone between them
> was nice to see the gangs of yobs hanging about just part to make the path way clear for me lol


I know that feeling! Not only are they clearing a pathway, but apologising for getting in the way as well! If only they knew they are only endanger of being licked to death.

What sort of dogs do you have?


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I know that feeling! Not only are they clearing a pathway, but apologising for getting in the way as well! If only they knew they are only endanger of being licked to death.
> 
> What sort of dogs do you have?


yea if any had asked they could of give the dogs a fuss no probs

had bull mastiffs few years back now got a retriever x witch was my partners dog and we just got a dogue de Bordeaux puppy


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