# Mating without a tie/lock?



## jadiee-x

Hi, 
A week ago I bred my labmaraner bitch Meg to a weimaraner stud, Balou.
Right away Balou was very attracted to her, within 2 seconds of first seeing her, he tried mounting her, of which we pulled apart as we didnt quite want them doing their business in the middle of the kitchen!

Well, Meg is 2 and half years old, on her 3rd season. For the first couple of hours, Meg just wanted to play, after a wile she allowed Balou to mount her but he just wasnt aiming properly.
We left them alone for a little while as they were a bit distracted and kept looking at us, just like a child would do when they meet new friends. Please note there was someone on hand, just not me or the studs owner.

Well, when my mum checked up on them she did notice what she believed to be semen dripping out of Meg after Balou had mounted her. However this wasnt very long atall, we arent sure just how long this lasted but they werent left out of our sight for more than 5-10 minutes. However we are very certain they hadnt tied atall.

For two dogs to mate without tying, how quick could this last for a successful litter. I hear they can concieve without tying.

48 hours after, we tried again, this time at the studs house. The two dogs tried once and my girl pulled away, the boy didnt even try to mount after and they just werent interested in eachother, so we came back home.

Meg was showing some strange behaviour after the first 'mating' she was just moping around feeling sorry for herself and just wasn't her usual self.
Since she has bucked up a bit and is almost her normal self, but she is getting very weary of our 5 year old, whom she usually tolerates completely no matter what he does to her. 
Ive noticed too, that since she has been bred when she get protective her fur rises on her scruff and her back. Ive seen this on other dogs, but for meg this is a new thing! 

We dont have our hopes up as we know its very unlikely for her to have concieved, but she has just been acting strangely since. The day after the first time also, she wouldn't eat her meat in her dinner either, completely didnt wanna know anything. Which i believe was the VERY first time she has ever turned down tinned dog food!! :scared:

This was indeed our first time breeding and have researched as much as we can, but tings like this just cant be found without asking others that have been through the experience of a possibly pregnant bitch.

Any help will be absolutely great!! 
Thank you :arf:


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## swarthy

A bitch can get pregnant from a slip mating, but to leave what sounds like two maiden dogs alone to mate is sheer stupidity and quite irresponsible, you are lucky you don't have a seriously injured stud, bitch or both. In fact, to leave any two dogs alone for mating is quite irresponsible. 

It sounds like you weren't even there, what would you have done if they had tied, and the bitch had panicked - the consequences could have been VERY serious. What if the dog had got stuck turning on the tie and panicked? 

Dogs don't have the same emotions as humans, and quite often to get a successful tie, you need to get pretty personal with the dog, hence why owning a stud dog is not for the faint hearted


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## dexter

er why pull them apart in the kitchen? where they tied?? why put then there in the first place to mate??


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## jadiee-x

I completely understand what that must of sound like, but I myself was not there for those 5 minutes, they were with my dad who was on the full understanding that if they just happened to tie during that time to hold Meg still and not let her panic
He just isnt aware of how long Balou had managed to get his way with our girl, as everytime he was mounting her he was missing completely.

Secondly Balou the stud, is an experienced stud not a maiden dog. 

Im here to be given adivce and not to be called irresponsible, yes tell me they shouldnt have been left alone, but you dont have to tell me im stupid and irresponsible for doing it. The stud dogs owner was the one to tell us to leave them for 5 minutes, meaning me and them, as we seemed to be the ones that were looked upon by the dogs every 30 seconds. We were just in the next room out of the dogs way.


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## Nicky10

It's entirely possible for her to get pregnant from a slip mating all that's required is some semen to enter her which it sounds like has happened. But I thought you didn't leave mating dogs alone...


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## leoti

My friends bitch had aslip mating resulting in 13 puppies so yes they can catch i would get her scanned once she is 30 days from the slip mating at least you will know


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## jadiee-x

dexter said:


> er why pull them apart in the kitchen? where they tied?? why put then there in the first place to mate??


No no dexter, they weren't tied atall, it was a case of meg being introduced Balou in the kitchen, we expecting sniffing and a little meet and greet so kept Balou on the lead but straight away he mounted her within literally seconds, we thought it would be best for them to have the run of the garden out of kids way rather than in a dingy kitchen with a young child wanting to see and stroke this new dog that have turned up. :001_cool:


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## swarthy

jadiee-x said:


> Im here to be given adivce and not to be called irresponsible, yes tell me they shouldnt have been left alone, but you dont have to tell me im stupid and irresponsible for doing it. The stud dogs owner was the one to tell us to leave them for 5 minutes, meaning me and them, as we seemed to be the ones that were looked upon by the dogs every 30 seconds. We were just in the next room out of the dogs way.


So the stud dog owner was with the dogs all the time then? he must be another version of Arnie to be confident of holding two mating dogs if they tie.

I'm sorry, I will tell you you are irresponsible, and I say that because people need to be aware that this is NOT the way that dogs should be mated - it's not human flowers and hearts and roses, it is nature at it's most basic - and even experienced stud dogs need help to be directed to where they need to go at times.

Maiden bitches can go into a serious panic when they tie - and they cannot physically be separated - cue two potentially very seriously injured dogs.


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## rocco33

As has been said, it is perfectly possible to have a litter from a slip mating - time will tell. What day of her season was she on? did you premate her? how did you know what day to take her to the stud?

I have to agree with both Swarthy and Dexter - while it may be acceptable to stay a discrete distance, someone should have been watching them all the time.



> The stud dogs owner was the one to tell us to leave them for 5 minutes, meaning me and them, as we seemed to be the ones that were looked upon by the dogs every 30 seconds. We were just in the next room out of the dogs way.


I think then that the stud owner leaves a lot to be desired, however, there are as many irresponsible stud owners as there are breeders, and I suspect you won't find it easy finding a good stud dog if you are breeding a crossbreed.


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## sequeena

Considering they were left alone could it be possible the stud has hurt her and that's why she's acting differently?


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## jadiee-x

Thanks guys, 
Ive had try to clear a few bits up here, my initial post did indeed sound like the dogs were left completely by themselves, they hadn't been. They had been left with my dad who was left with clear instructions if they were to tie, including to literally call our names, seeing as it was only a wall that separated us from the garden. 

I was just wondering if there were any, perhaps, non text book early signs of pregnancy coming from experience. Like how the girl behaves, the little things.


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## Nicky10

Not every bitch is going to show textbook signs. Take her to the vet they will be able to tell if she or not.


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## sequeena

I don't think there are many signs, if any especially so early on.


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## rocco33

> No no dexter, they weren't tied atall, it was a case of meg being introduced Balou in the kitchen, we expecting sniffing and a little meet and greet so kept Balou on the lead but straight away he mounted her within literally seconds, we thought it would be best for them to have the run of the garden out of kids way rather than in a dingy kitchen with a young child wanting to see and stroke this new dog that have turned up.


Why on earth were they introduced in the kitchen instead of where the mating was to take place?

I'm sorry, but from what you have said this is a sad situation. I can only hope that if she has caught (not the best outcome) that you do some serious research and learning fast and get a knowledgeable experienced breeder (not the stud owner) to act as a support.


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## luvmydogs

swarthy said:


> he must be another version of Arnie to be confident of holding two mating dogs if they tie.


I'm quite confident with holding my dog and bitch, and I have held 2 Bullmastiffs on my own at times. (although there was always someone there just in case)


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## luvmydogs

In answer to your question OP, yes she could be pregnant, but there is no guarantee. All you can do is get her scanned.

ffs, the mating (or not) has already happened, no point in going on about what should have been.....


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## rocco33

> Well, when my mum checked up on them she did notice what she believed to be semen dripping out of Meg after Balou had mounted her. However this wasnt very long atall, we arent sure just how long this lasted but they werent left out of our sight for more than 5-10 minutes. However we are very certain they hadnt tied atall.





> my initial post did indeed sound like the dogs were left completely by themselves, they hadn't been. They had been left with my dad who was left with clear instructions if they were to tie, including to literally call our names


,

So which one was it? If they had been left with your dad he would have seen whether it was a tie or a slip mating. If, as you originally say it was just your mum noticing what was semen dripping out of her, why did your dad not see what had happened.


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## jadiee-x

rocco33 said:


> ,
> 
> So which one was it? If they had been left with your dad he would have seen whether it was a tie or a slip mating. If, as you originally say it was just your mum noticing what was semen dripping out of her, why did your dad not see what had happened.


Why are you trying to catch me out?
I came on here asking for advice not for people to show their claws.

As i mentioned we KNOW it was not a tie mating. The dogs were mounting on and off for hours, but each time we could see he was not aiming in the right direction. Obviously, my dad wasn't aware that the stud had actually managed to enter her, thus not recalling how long he was inside her, it could have been 10 seconds, it could have been 5 mintues. We were called and the dogs unmounted, this is when my mum saw this.

Please may I also re-mention this was a first time mating experience. Im not a breeder and I'm not going to be doing everything the way experts like to do it. I done research and also took advice from the stud owner, as Balou has had several litters. Yes I made mistakes and was a tad clumsy, but I would never ever put my dog at risk on purpose.


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## jadiee-x

luvmydogs said:


> In answer to your question OP, yes she could be pregnant, but there is no guarantee. All you can do is get her scanned.
> 
> ffs, the mating (or not) has already happened, no point in going on about what should have been.....


Thank you, I really appreciate that.
One negative comment and they spiral, on every single chat forum you go on its the same thing.


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## sequeena

jadiee-x said:


> Thank you, I really appreciate that.
> One negative comment and they spiral, on every single chat forum you go on its the same thing.


As you say it happens everywhere but I'm glad you have come for advice. That in itself shows you want to do the right thing by mum and puppies


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## rocco33

> Please may I also re-mention this was a first time mating experience. Im not a breeder and I'm not going to be doing everything the way experts like to do it.


You are a breeder - you only need to breed once to become a breeder. No one expects only experts to breed, but even novices and first timers should have enough knowledge not to put the dog and bitch at risk. Clearly you haven't. Others have commented that the mating has taken place so we should not comment - well that may be but you still have the pregnancy and whelping to go through and if your approach and knowledge is at the level of the mating I only hope your bitch gets through it without needing help.



> Why are you trying to catch me out?
> I came on here asking for advice not for people to show their claws


I'm not trying to catch you out nor show my claws - I'm just disgusted at the casual attitude people have to breeding from their dogs (which is purely for selfish reasons) and are prepared to put their dog/bitch at risk in the process.


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## alaun

It is possible she's pregnant, but without having seen what has happened it's difficult to say - only time will tell. Later on you will be able to have her scanned - I suggest a sheep scanner rather than your vets,; they are more accurate.


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## jadiee-x

sequeena said:


> As you say it happens everywhere but I'm glad you have come for advice. That in itself shows you want to do the right thing by mum and puppies


Thank you,
it's really made me feel sick to my stomach being questioned whether im a poor owner, i absolutely love my dog more than i love life itself. I'ld never ever purposely harm a hair on her body.


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## jadiee-x

alaun said:


> It is possible she's pregnant, but without having seen what has happened it's difficult to say - only time will tell. Later on you will be able to have her scanned - I suggest a sheep scanner rather than your vets,; they are more accurate.


Thank you for that tip 
I hear vets scanners can be unreliable after reading many posts on here, I will strongly reccommend this to my parents


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## sequeena

jadiee-x said:


> Thank you,
> it's really made me feel sick to my stomach being questioned whether im a poor owner, i absolutely love my dog more than i love life itself. I'ld never ever purposely harm a hair on her body.


I hate to say this but if you don't have a proper mentor, are not health testing etc then you ARE putting your girl at risk (of course you put her at risk by breeding anyway). I am sure you're a lovely owner it comes across in your posts but you really need to be careful when you step into the world of breeding.

Good luck and stick around. You WILL get negative comments, it's inevitable and people are allowed their opinions but you will also get some brilliant advice  x


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## alaun

Can I also recommend you get a copy of The Book of the Bitch - you will find it very useful.


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## swarthy

People don't show their claws, they get frustrated and cross because people don't do their research before getting into all this.

You have found a stud dog who has been allowed to be used on a cross-breed - this in itself brings into question the owners knowledge and responsibility.

It sounds like the dog came to your house - where was the stud dog owner?

Usually, the bitch owner takes her bitch to the dog where the owners are in attendance at ALL times - there to ensure the dogs don't get hurt, that the mating takes place and you get the best opportunity for a tie.

Has your bitch been hip and elbow scored? has she got a current clear eye certificate? Has your bitch been tested for PRA?

Has the stud dog been hipscored?

Personally, I hope your bitch isn't pregnant - if that sounds harsh I make no apologies.

If she is and you are not prepared to give the anti-mate injection, I suggest you invest in the Book of the Bitch by JM Evans and Kay White and read it from cover to cover.

Book of the Bitch: Amazon.co.uk: J.M. Evans, Kay White: Books

I suggest you go and find yourself a knowledgeable and responsible mentor who can advise you on the care of your bitch, dietary requirements, to be there on the end of a phone whenever you need them - particularly during whelping and when raising the litter.

The vet will be able to confirm pregnancy from around 28 days after the second mating by scan - they won't usually be able to tell you how many pups she is having - and even when I have heard of counts, they seldom seem to be accurate.

---------------------

For the record, ANYONE who mates their bitch puts it at risk because bitches can and DO die during whelping, and some from complications afterwards.


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## luvmydogs

sequeena said:


> I hate to say this but if you don't have a proper mentor, are not health testing etc then you ARE putting your girl at risk (of course you put her at risk by breeding anyway). I am sure you're a lovely owner it comes across in your posts but you really need to be careful when you step into the world of breeding.


In what way is she putting her dog at risk? (apart from the obious risks of whelping when hopefully she will at least have the vet at the other end of the phone)


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## archiebaby

jadiee-x said:


> Thank you,
> it's really made me feel sick to my stomach being questioned whether im a poor owner, i absolutely love my dog more than i love life itself. I'ld never ever purposely harm a hair on her body.


hi jadiee, i am not here to post any negative comments but i also love my dogs and one of my little dogs did die during her whelpingi will never forgive myself but it was the choice i made to breed her so it was it my opinion completely my own fault,i cannot change what happened but sometimes things do go wrong even with a experianced breeder it is a chance you take the moment you decide to mate themquite often it is puppies that die before your eyes and the very worst mum as well it is very dangerous to leave two dogs alone to mate even for a minute the worse can and does happen but you were lucky and nothing happened this time


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## sequeena

luvmydogs said:


> In what way is she putting her dog at risk? (apart from the obious risks of whelping when hopefully she will at least have the vet at the other end of the phone)


I meant to add the risk to the pups health wise, my finges type too fast for my brain to keep up


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## luvmydogs

archiebaby said:


> hi jadiee, i am not here to post any negative comments but i also love my dogs and one of my little dogs did die during her whelpingi will never forgive myself but it was the choice i made to breed her so it was it my opinion completely my own fault,i cannot change what happened but sometimes things do go wrong even with a experianced breeder it is a chance you take the moment you decide to mate them


Of course these things happen. But as you say, they happen to health tested bitches with very experienced breeders, too. Thankfully rarely with young fit bitches.


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## archiebaby

luvmydogs said:


> Of course these things happen. But as you say, they happen to health tested bitches with very experienced breeders, too. Thankfully rarely with young fit bitches.


that is true, my girl was a fit young healthy girl who died during the c section when anyone mates a dog you have to be prepared for anything and everything however heartbreaking it is? it is not just about cute puppies


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## rocco33

> Thankfully rarely with young fit bitches.


While death of a bitch is not that common (but it does happen more than one thinks) it is not uncommon to have problems which could, without intervention, lead to death and not just during whelping, but post whelping too. It has much more to do with the experience and knowledge of the breeder as to when intervention and possible vet care is needed.


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## luvmydogs

archiebaby said:


> that is true, my girl was a fit young healthy girl who died during the c section when anyone mates a dog you have to be prepared for anything and everything however heartbreaking it is? it is not just about cute puppies


True, sad things do happen. Sorry it happened to you. But it is rare.


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## archiebaby

luvmydogs said:


> True, sad things do happen. Sorry it happened to you. But it is rare.


thank you just a pity we cant turn back time eh?


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## jadiee-x

swarthy said:


> People don't show their claws, they get frustrated and cross because people don't do their research before getting into all this.
> 
> You have found a stud dog who has been allowed to be used on a cross-breed - this in itself brings into question the owners knowledge and responsibility.
> 
> It sounds like the dog came to your house - where was the stud dog owner?
> 
> Usually, the bitch owner takes her bitch to the dog where the owners are in attendance at ALL times - there to ensure the dogs don't get hurt, that the mating takes place and you get the best opportunity for a tie.
> 
> Has your bitch been hip and elbow scored? has she got a current clear eye certificate? Has your bitch been tested for PRA?
> 
> Has the stud dog been hipscored?
> 
> Personally, I hope your bitch isn't pregnant - if that sounds harsh I make no apologies.
> 
> If she is and you are not prepared to give the anti-mate injection, I suggest you invest in the Book of the Bitch by JM Evans and Kay White and read it from cover to cover.
> 
> Book of the Bitch: Amazon.co.uk: J.M. Evans, Kay White: Books
> 
> I suggest you go and find yourself a knowledgeable and responsible mentor who can advise you on the care of your bitch, dietary requirements, to be there on the end of a phone whenever you need them - particularly during whelping and when raising the litter.
> 
> The vet will be able to confirm pregnancy from around 28 days after the second mating by scan - they won't usually be able to tell you how many pups she is having - and even when I have heard of counts, they seldom seem to be accurate.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> For the record, ANYONE who mates their bitch puts it at risk because bitches can and DO die during whelping, and some from complications afterwards.


Both bitch and stud have been tested, also their mother and father on both sides have also been tested. My girl was a first generation cross between weimaraner and labrador, both of which had exceptional lines. It just happened that these pups were an accidental mating due to a neighbouring dog getting into the field of where the bitch lived.

We have taken Meg to the vets for every booster, every little thing she has ever needed. She was hipscored and eyes were examined. We spoke to the vet about the possibilty of breeding and he suggested which tests should be done, all of which were.

Balou did come to our house, with his two owners who stayed the full 5 hours. We suggested going there, but they insisted on coming to us due to the studs preferences, he has never been interested in his own home. If it were to fail then to go to them, of which we did, which proved he really wasnt atall interested.

Look right i COMPLETELY understand what you are saying in your posts. All I am guilty of though im afraid, is crossbreeding. There was someone on supervision at ALL times, this keeps getting brought up.
I just dont understand why you have got to give the tone you have been giving, you don't know me, my dog, the stud owners or their dog. You could give me this advice and give all the points you have given me in a more pleasant manner, of which ild grately take on board and be very grateful for your time. 
It just seems as if you have came about in a very agressive manner.


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## sequeena

I really have to say well done for doing all the testing!


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## jadiee-x

archiebaby said:


> hi jadiee, i am not here to post any negative comments but i also love my dogs and one of my little dogs did die during her whelpingi will never forgive myself but it was the choice i made to breed her so it was it my opinion completely my own fault,i cannot change what happened but sometimes things do go wrong even with a experianced breeder it is a chance you take the moment you decide to mate themquite often it is puppies that die before your eyes and the very worst mum as well it is very dangerous to leave two dogs alone to mate even for a minute the worse can and does happen but you were lucky and nothing happened this time


Im so sorry to hear that, must be absolutely dreadful. Everything we do in life comes with a risk im afraid, its the way things are eh? 
You can't even cross the road without the risk of being run over, you can look both ways but there is nothing to stop a speeding driver hitting you.


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## luvmydogs

I reckon an apology is in order from certain people - but I doubt you'll get it.


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## haeveymolly

Just to say what has been done had been done, so all you need now is good positive advice and i hope you get it, i know nothing about breeding so just want to say hope it all goes well ime sure it will and look forward to seeing some lovely puppy pics.


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## swarthy

luvmydogs said:


> I reckon an apology is in order from certain people - but I doubt you'll get it.


Why? the dogs were left alone to mate - in any book that is irresponsible. If the owners don't actually know what happened and there was someone present all the time, and they don't know whether a tie took place, then they shouldn't have been there alone because they clearly didn't know what to expect.

I am glad your dogs have been hipscored - you make no mention of elbows, eye certificates or PRA tests - I assume they have been done on your bitch as well?

===============

As for being there five hours - did the stud not come back 48 hours later for a second mating?


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## jadiee-x

haeveymolly said:


> Just to say what has been done had been done, so all you need now is good positive advice and i hope you get it, i know nothing about breeding so just want to say hope it all goes well ime sure it will and look forward to seeing some lovely puppy pics.


Thank you very much 
If she conceived, im pretty sure these pups will be absolutely gorgeous. She is about the size of a labrador, with the build of a weimaraner, a charcoal grey colour with blue eyes. The stud was very gorgeous, big sturdy lad he was with the most stunning smile lines in his face. :001_cool:


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## haeveymolly

She sounds stunning ime sure the pups will be too, good luck.


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## rocco33

> I reckon an apology is in order from certain people - but I doubt you'll get it.


Why and what for? 

There are a few things that have been mentioned that cause me concern that this has been done responsibly and some of which haven't even been commented on and other things which don't add up. As far as I'm concerned the comments were valid. However, I will bow out now


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## jadiee-x

swarthy said:


> Why? the dogs were left alone to mate - in any book that is irresponsible. If the owners don't actually know what happened and there was someone present all the time, and they don't know whether a tie took place, then they shouldn't have been there alone because they clearly didn't know what to expect.
> 
> I am glad your dogs have been hipscored - you make no mention of elbows, eye certificates or PRA tests - I assume they have been done on your bitch as well?
> 
> ===============
> 
> As for being there five hours - did the stud not come back 48 hours later for a second mating?


WE KNOW THAT A TIE HAD NOT TAKEN PLACE HENCE THE QUESTION TO BEGIN WITH!!
This has been mentioned more than enough times.

I tell you what swarthy, when I have time, I will pull out all records of the testing she has had done just to make you a tad happier.
The vet we go to is a family friend, we took every suggestion he threw at us. If I can get a vets approval, someone in a career where all they tell you is to 'neuter neuter neuter,' why am i looking for approval from you?

And Yes the dog was taken to the studs whereabouts 2 days after the initial meeting, which too has already been mentioned.


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## Ducky

hope it goes well for you, your dog sounds lovely. x


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## Spellweaver

jadiee-x said:


> Thank you very much
> If she conceived, im pretty sure these pups will be absolutely gorgeous. She is about the size of a labrador, with the build of a weimaraner, a charcoal grey colour with blue eyes. The stud was very gorgeous, big sturdy lad he was with the most stunning smile lines in his face. :001_cool:


If she is pregnant you may need to be prepared for a Cesarian section. Labs are smaller than weimaranars, so if your bitch is the size of a lab but with the build of a weimaranar, and the stud is a "big sturdy lad" (who may sire large pups) she may have difficulty is giving birth naturally. Hope she doesn't, but it never hurts to be prepared just in case .....

My niece (who is a vet nurse) was in tears the other day because they had a springer spaniel brought in who had been mated with a lab and the pups were too large for her to give birth naturally - they performed an emergency cesarian but the owner had left it too late for the vet to save the pups and it was touch and go whether or not the bitch lived


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## jadiee-x

Spellweaver said:


> If she is pregnant you may need to be prepared for a Cesarian section. Labs are smaller than weimaranars, so if your bitch is the size of a lab but with the build of a weimaranar, and the stud is a "big sturdy lad" (who may sire large pups) she may have difficulty is giving birth naturally. Hope she doesn't, but it never hurts to be prepared just in case .....
> 
> My niece (who is a vet nurse) was in tears the other day because they had a springer spaniel brought in who had been mated with a lab and the pups were too large for her to give birth naturally - they performed an emergency cesarian but the owner had left it too late for the vet to save the pups and it was touch and go whether or not the bitch lived


We picked Balou specifically due to him being smaller than the average weimaraner, he was just very lovely built. When i stroke meg, she wobbles from side to side, but what i just loved about the lad was the fact he stood dead still if when stroking him rough. 
When we took meg to the studs house, a neighbour brought her boy weim around and he was twice the size of Balou!! We kept Meg well away from him!! lol.

Aww thats absolutely heart breaking, wow you hear of 'springadors' being born all the time. Must of been a big lab to breed with her or a smaller springer, they are usually quite compatible. Poor things 

But yes, we have prepared funds which have been put aside for whatever may head our way. I just hope i can afford these things emotionally, money is no object when it comes to our girl


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## jadiee-x

Ducky said:


> hope it goes well for you, your dog sounds lovely. x


Thanks ducky 
If she is half as good being mother as she is to her toys, then she will be the most loving mother ever. x


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## swarthy

jadiee-x said:


> I tell you what swarthy, when I have time, I will pull out all records of the testing she has had done just to make you a tad happier.
> 
> The vet we go to is a family friend, we took every suggestion he threw at us. If I can get a vets approval, someone in a career where all they tell you is to 'neuter neuter neuter,' why am i looking for approval from you?


I didn't realise you were, if you are, and feel you have to justify yourself, that's more about your conscience than anything else.

I am surprised you need to 'dig out any paperwork' on hip scores etc and what tests have taken place to know what they are. I know every one of my dogs, the tests they've had the dates they had them, the results and the results of the dogs they've been bred with, not to mention many of their offspring.

=====================

As a general question not aimed at the OP, but to those in the know - for KC registered dogs, the eye specialists will only give you the results if the KC paperwork is there to endorse.

How exactly does this work with cross breeds where there is no paperwork to endorse?


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## Sleeping_Lion

I know the hip scores, elbow grades, eye tests, pra and cnm status of my two girls without digging them out. I had Indie spayed because she wasn't suitable breeding material, partly because of her elbow grades, partly because of a cruciate injury. If I don't have the opportunity to breed from Tau, I will have her spayed too, despite spending nearly £1,000 on health testing, I will always put my dogs first, they rely on me to make the best decisions on their behalf. 

I've never bred a litter, I would never leave a bitch alone with a dog, and I wouldn't use a dog that stood still if I stroked him rough. I would use a dog that gives me what I lack in my bitch, to try and aim for something that might *fill* the parts I currently find lacking. 

I'm sorry, but I'd have to agree, if you haven't already considered the mismate, think about it, think about what you actually want from pups, and then go from there and plan a mating appropriately with stud dog owner that can mentor you properly.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've never bred a litter, I would never leave a bitch alone with a dog, and I wouldn't use a dog that stood still if I stroked him rough. I would use a dog that gives me what I lack in my bitch, to try and aim for something that might *fill* the parts I currently find lacking.


This is the right way to breed - but how can someone 'know' what parts are lacking in a cross-breed to be able to pick the stud in the first place?


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## Sleeping_Lion

I suppose someone cross breeding would aim for some thing more general, so perhaps you aim for a specific conformation of a stud dog, to try and improve on the conformation from your bitch, as well as taking into account all the other attributes and health testing. Someone producing a cross breed, may want a small companion, that's lively and fluffy. For me, there are enough pedigree breeds to choose from, but for some, they may want to generally combine two or more breeds to try and perhaps get a slightly larger bichon, with a longer coat and snout, so use what they think might give them that??? I think that's where the HUGE grey area in breeding is, some people who produce cross breeds do take all the other criteria into account, health test, use animals with a good temperament etc, etc, but they are few and far between, by far the vast, vast majority are people who at best put two dogs together thinking it will be nice to have pups from *those* two dogs, and at the other end you get people hoping to make money from it and really don't give two hoots what comes out, either pedigree or cross breeding, I've seen the most abismal examples of chocolate Labradors, simply because they are such popular pets. And the only thing I can put that down to is the word *chocolate*, it seems to be a draw factor, perhaps if they were called brown or liver they wouldn't be so attractive?? 

Apols for going slightly OT but an interesting discussion.


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## nfp20

I assume the stud you used is Bulphan Maximus Shadow in Kent??

In which case as far as I am aware and I would have to check but he isn't hip scored. Certainly doesn't have a record with the Kennel Club and his owners are irresponsible if they are breeding to a crossed bitch. Neither is he a very experienced stud certainly not within his own breed although he is cheap at stud which is usually the price of a puppy.

So what do you know about the Bulphan dogs?? How much research have you done??

If your vet is a family friend whose asked you to do numerous tests on your bitch do you think he might have been trying to persuade you not to breed?

You can get an eye test done without KC papers but you won't get a published result unless your dog is registered under the activity scheme same for any of the other tests available including hip scoring which is not just a quick check of the dogs movement to see if they can walk but a proper xray scan of the hips.

With size you do not just look at the stud you need to look at the dogs within his pedigree and your bitches siblings as the bitch line can throw a larger puppy if her own siblings or ancestors are large in size. It is certainly no unusual. A smaller dog maybe smaller because of illness whilst it was developing (prior to 18 months of age) in which case you would also be carrying the potential hereditary issues with the puppies.

The damage is done now, a tie can take minutes don't expect it to be a long drawn out thing and the dog in all likelihood wasn't interested not because it was in his own home but because your bitch was no longer peak and of interest to him as a stud.

If he was at it for hours I have to say that is irresponsible on the part of his owners because a stud is easily exhausted some have died. You should have premated tested to make sure your bitch was at peak and then after a short introduction popped a lead on to her and to the the stud if necessary helping to guide him in to complete the tie and once complete helped him to turn if necessary (a shorter dog than the bitch can be dealt with by mating on a slight incline with the dog higher than the bitch to help him) and then the two should have been held together until the mating is finished and the dog has released himself.

If its your bitches first mating and she was not ready but you still allowed to mating to occur then I would suggest that you go and see your vet and have her checked over to make sure that she is not damaged internally it is easily done. You should be going anyway to have her wormed and checked. If she is in pain then I am not surprised she is struggling to tolerate your child in which case you should give her some space. Sadly even the best dogs can bite when they are in pain and it is no fault of their own.

One thing so many people fail to take into account is the change in temperament that a bitch can go through during and after she has been mated and had a litter. Not all bitches change but many do not just towards people but to other dogs which is such a shame. It is also something to consider bitches certainly don't need to be bred.

If you have not done your research previously you should do it now if you know the pedigree information of the Weimaraner (its KC name) that was used to create your bitch post it here along with the KC name of the other breed. You can easily research the lines and if you contact the respective breed clubs they will help you although they will not be happy you are cross breeding.

For Weimaraners there is a very good pedigree website you can start your research on Weimaranerpedigrees.com - iFrames if your dogs information is not there then please let me know and I will add it. The stud is.

If she is successfully mated then I suggest that you find someone locally who is experienced with breeding to act as mentor if you cannot find someone locally find someone on the net and set up an internet web connection via something like skype or MSN using a webcam so that you have at least some aid. Phone your vet and make sure that they are able to support you when the time comes. learn the basics of canine first aid for puppies IT IS VERY IMPORTANT as time is a real factor.

Don't think a bitch can whelp on her own, sometimes they can't and puppies can be born hours after the birth of the others, placentas can be left behind resulting in an infection that can if you are not quick result in the loss of your bitch. Have you learnt how to revive a puppy??? Do you know the signs of fading puppy syndrome?? Have you asked your vet to teach you to hand feed?? Worked out your worming program? What you will do if your bitch rejects or tries to kill her puppies?? Not all bitches are natural mothers.

Breeding is not for the faint hearted it is expensive both in time, emotions and financially if you do it properly as you have to feed a good diet, advertise your puppies in the right places, vet your owners carefully, socialise them, health check your pups with the vet (I do mine every two weeks) microchip and vaccinate them etc. And if your a decent breeder put together your breeder pack (food, how to feed, how to train etc etc free insurance, petplan will still offer it for non pedigrees look on their site) thats without the care of your bitch and the cost of scans etc.

have you checked that your insurance covers breeding??? If not you need to change it because otherwise you will be left with any vet bills which can be several thousands of pounds if things go wrong. Most insurance companies exclude breeding bitches within the smalll print so even if she gets an injury whilst pregnant they may fail to pay out leaving you with the bill.

Have you got a waiting list for puppies?? At the moment puppies are failing to sell and alot of litters are ending up in rescues for an example Weimaraner rescue have a litter of pups at the moment and dogs are being surrendered earlier and earlier alot still in the puppy phase. Many reputable breeders are failing to find homes, in this financial climate selling puppies is not easy. Can you cope with your litter of puppies if they are still with you past 9 weeks??? Will your child cope being mauled by a litter?? Unless you can seperate the two its going to be very difficult for you to cope.

There is help available its is a good thing that you have asked here, you should expect a few tempers but split milk has to be dealt with just the same as a planned litter at least you can do your best for them now.

If you ever want to find out if a KC registered dog has been health tested at least those collected by the KC you can use this easy tool http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/health/search/Default.aspx just enter the KC name of the dog concerned.


----------



## Hobnob biscuit

swarthy said:


> I didn't realise you were, if you are, and feel you have to justify yourself, that's more about your conscience than anything else.
> 
> I am surprised you need to 'dig out any paperwork' on hip scores etc and what tests have taken place to know what they are. I know every one of my dogs, the tests they've had the dates they had them, the results and the results of the dogs they've been bred with, not to mention many of their offspring.
> 
> =====================
> 
> As a general question not aimed at the OP, but to those in the know - for KC registered dogs, the eye specialists will only give you the results if the KC paperwork is there to endorse.
> 
> How exactly does this work with cross breeds where there is no paperwork to endorse?


Eye testing can be done using the dogs microchip number


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## dexter

Hobnob biscuit said:


> Eye testing can be done using the dogs micro chip number


can it? how long has this been the case??


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## Hobnob biscuit

dexter said:


> can it? how long has this been the case??


I have a dog that is not KC registered and I had her eye tested using her microchip details. That was 18 months ago.


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## Guest

Hobnob biscuit said:


> I have a dog that is not KC registered and I had her eye tested using her microchip details. That was 18 months ago.


Well I have never heard that before, thought it needed the vet to examine the eye using specialist equipment!

Not suggesting you are daft but could it have been something to do with DNA testing that involved the microchip?


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## Hobnob biscuit

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I have never heard that before, thought it needed the vet to examine the eye using specialist equipment!
> 
> Not suggesting you are daft but could it have been something to do with DNA testing that involved the microchip?


No. She was tested under the KC/BVA scheme at a clinic. He put her microchip number on the certificate. It was the annual test, not the Optigen.


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## swarthy

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I have never heard that before, thought it needed the vet to examine the eye using specialist equipment!
> 
> Not suggesting you are daft but could it have been something to do with DNA testing that involved the microchip?


 The poster never said they didn't have the eye test with specialist equipment.

As of Jan 2010 it is a mandatory requirement for all KC registered dogs using the BVA/KC schemes to be microchipped 

As we discovered today, my boys has gone wandering off down one of his shoulders after me blasely saying that apart from my eldest, none of the others have had chips that have moved 

He certainly won't be the only one - let's just hope the dog wardens / RSPCA / Rescues etc are scanning dogs all over as they are meant to


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## Guest

swarthy said:


> The poster never said they didn't have the eye test with specialist equipment.
> 
> As of Jan 2010 it is a mandatory requirement for all KC registered dogs using the BVA/KC schemes to be microchipped
> 
> As we discovered today, my boys has gone wandering off down one of his shoulders after me blasely saying that apart from my eldest, none of the others have had chips that have moved
> 
> He certainly won't be the only one - let's just hope the dog wardens / RSPCA / Rescues etc are scanning dogs all over as they are meant to


I know of a dog whose chip has moved as it happens! The owner knows this! it has moved way down the shoulder!! Returning to the UK they had to insist that the scan were repeated until it were found! Maybe that person will come along and tell the full story soon if she reads this thread!


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## swarthy

nfp20 said:


> Neither is he a very experienced stud certainly not within his own breed although he is cheap at stud which is usually the price of a puppy.


 You are not kidding he's cheap - scary 



DoubleTrouble said:


> I know of a dog whose chip has moved as it happens! The owner knows this! it has moved way down the shoulder!! Returning to the UK they had to insist that the scan were repeated until it were found! Maybe that person will come along and tell the full story soon if she reads this thread!


Yes, my eldest girl's has moved, but she's nearly 7.5 now, and touch wood, until the boy, we've not had a problem with any of the others despite the fact all my pups are chipped at 8 weeks (or younger).

I must confess to having been a bit lax with his, as I normally get them checked at least once a year, but he had his hips and elbows done a few months back, and the vet then didn't mention it


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## Guest

swarthy said:


> You are not kidding he's cheap - scary
> 
> Yes, my eldest girl's has moved, but she's nearly 7.5 now, and touch wood, until the boy, we've not had a problem with any of the others despite the fact all my pups are chipped at 8 weeks (or younger).
> 
> I must confess to having been a bit lax with his, as I normally get them checked at least once a year, but he had his hips and elbows done a few months back, and the vet then didn't mention it


I have my girl hips scored last year! and to my knowledge the vet I used did not check the the chip!


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## swarthy

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have my girl hips scored last year! and to my knowledge the vet I used did not check the the chip!


Mine have always had their chips checked at my request and their details added to the paperwork - however, as posted above, from *January 2010 *it is a mandatory requirement (or a legible tattoo) - so if you didn't ask for it last year, there is no reason why the vet would have done.


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## Guest

swarthy said:


> Mine have always had their chips checked at my request and their details added to the paperwork - however, as posted above, from *January 2010 *it is a mandatory requirement (or a legible tattoo) - so if you didn't ask for it last year, there is no reason why the vet would have done.


Nope! I didn't ask for it!! but have thought about having their chips checked!!
That said!! don't think we would ever be lucky enuff to lose this particular dog


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## momentofmadness

Im just wondering why you would breed a lab x weimaraner.. 

As you have previously said that she was an accident.. so then why would you go out on purpose and breed this dog... You have also previously said you don't agree with people adding things like labs to another breed to produce colour....

Im not getting at you I am very curious.. 

I have read your other thread about your dog.. think on cross breeds and you discuss how she can be bolshy and not do as she is told...

And I don't know any responsible stud who would allow you to use there stud to breed with a xbreed as it isn't good for their breed or the dogs reputation.....

But yes they can get preggers from a slip mating..


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## nfp20

Chips do move they are a pain when they do especially if you travel abroad because if they don't find it first time they start asking all sorts of questions. 

I had to buy a scanner in the end because my eldest bitches chip has moved from her neck to her left shoulder and has slowly made its way down her left leg. It seems to have settled again now but its worth getting them checked regularly. The scanner has come in handy for rescues so its not a total extravagance... at least thats what I tell my OH :lol:


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## swarthy

nfp20 said:


> I had to buy a scanner in the end because my eldest bitches chip has moved from her neck to her left shoulder and has slowly made its way down her left leg. It seems to have settled again now but its worth getting them checked regularly. The scanner has come in handy for rescues so its not a total extravagance... at least thats what I tell my OH :lol:


LMAO :lol: :lol:

I am looking at doing a chipping course, as it cost me a fortune to chip my last litter through the vets - even with a discount


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## Tanya1989

Have you not got a chipper in your area? They often do litter discounts (big discounts)

ETA: Sorry my mistake, I'm thinking of tattooing


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## swarthy

Tanya1989 said:


> Have you not got a chipper in your area? They often do litter discounts (big discounts)
> 
> ETA: Sorry my mistake, I'm thinking of tattooing


Don't start me off on tattooing  - I wanted to get my first litter done, our nearest tattooist is 35 miles away - I did everything in my power to try and get hold of them to no avail - the website details were wrong.

I then tried the register owners themselves, who thought such difficulties were hilarious  needless to say, my babies left not tattooed 

I've always chipped mine, but now do the pups as well, out of sheer frustration at the amount of people who say, oh - but it hurts  (yes, very occasionally for about a second it does - but the extra piece of mind is surely worth it for on those rare occasions one gets a minute squeak out of a puppy that is quickly forgotten with a treat?)


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## Tanya1989

Like you I'd sooner inflict a second of pain if it means a life time of security (in most cases).


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## Freyja

Tanya1989 said:


> Like you I'd sooner inflict a second of pain if it means a life time of security (in most cases).


A whippet that I bred was stolen in march last year and was returned to his owner 2 weeks ago thanks to his chip. When the person tried to sell him the new owners vet scanned him and the chip was flagged as a stolen dog.:thumbup:


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## nfp20

if you do the chipping course you need willing volunteers to chip if you don't have a litter or your own dogs available rabbits are a good alternative option. Some ask that you have known the animal for a period of time but I struggled to find dogs that I knew for that length of time that didn't already have a chip implanted so I missed my course.

Have to say I would never not have one of mine done now even though they move. I had a cat stolen whilst I was at university that was staying with my parents, he was gone for over 2 years and I have to say I was totally gutted. More like a dog than a cat. I got a phone call from a vet to say that they had found him but he was unwell and sadly he died before I could get there, I duely buried him in my parent garden just pleased he'd been returned home. Then 6 months later I got a telephone call from a second vet to say that they had found my cat!!!! Talk about pet cemetary, couldn't be my cat he was buried less than a few feet from where I was standing. Anyway I went thinking well I'll go see just in case and low and behold it WAS my cat and he was so pleased to see me, in a dreadful state matted to hell and stinking! 

I had actually buried one of the littermates who'd also gone missing several years before and was presumed dead but was actually taken by one of their neighbours, they had left my name on the chip as a contact. So I didn't get just one cat back I got two and had four lovely years with him before he died. The chipping paid for itself.


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## sammiemacey2010

hi i have tryed to breed my english bull bitch with an english bull stud but althoe he is doing the job for sum reason he doesnt seem to get lockd this has happend 4 times now and dont quite understand where going wrong can any one help and does this mean there is still a chance she could be pregnant


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## dexter

maybe she's not ready yet? are they both maidens?


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## sammiemacey2010

yeah they r he is doing it and she is letting him they just dont seem to be locking together when he is finsisd his locking nuts r out so dont understand


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## SpringerHusky

sammiemacey2010 said:


> yeah they r he is doing it and she is letting him they just dont seem to be locking together when he is finsisd his locking nuts r out so dont understand


In english? :confused1:

Dog's nuts don't lock, they have a medium size ball called a Knot on thier penis. I'd be worried if the dog's nuts were going in :scared:


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## celicababe1986

SpringerHusky said:


> In english? :confused1:
> 
> Dog's nuts don't lock, they have a medium size ball called a Knot on thier penis. I'd be worried if the dog's nuts were going in :scared:


;

I just read this and the image in my head had my laughing for ages !:thumbup:
:lol::lol::lol:


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## paddyjulie

celicababe1986 said:


> ;
> 
> I just read this and the image in my head had my laughing for ages !:thumbup:
> :lol::lol::lol:


yeah it did make me giggle a little when i read it...:lol:

juliex


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## Luvdogs

celicababe1986 said:


> ;
> 
> I just read this and the image in my head had my laughing for ages !:thumbup:
> :lol::lol::lol:


Me too conjured up some right images!! :lol:


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## archiebaby

they are known as the locking nuts though


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## SpringerHusky

archiebaby said:


> they are known as the locking nuts though


I have never heard of that, what a weird thing to say. :confused1:


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## archiebaby

SpringerHusky said:


> I have never heard of that, what a weird thing to say. :confused1:


its because it is the bit that goes into the bitch which then swells and locks them together


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## SpringerHusky

archiebaby said:


> its because it is the bit that goes into the bitch which then swells and locks them together


The knot, yeah I get that but why call it the nuts? just sounds like dog drove his nuts in and tied that way :lol:


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## archiebaby

its just referred to as the dogs locking nuts


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## SpringerHusky

archiebaby said:


> its just referred to as the dogs locking nuts


Well you learn something new every day


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## archiebaby

SpringerHusky said:


> Well you learn something new every day


 you certainly do, i just learnt something new on another thread, curesy of rona


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## sammiemacey2010

yes i thought i new they was called locking nuts well now u understand does and one no y they dond seem to be getting locked together and could my dog still be pregnant


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## archiebaby

sammiemacey2010 said:


> hi i have tryed to breed my english bull bitch with an english bull stud but althoe he is doing the job for sum reason he doesnt seem to get lockd this has happend 4 times now and dont quite understand where going wrong can any one help and does this mean there is still a chance she could be pregnant


yes, she could still be pregnant witout a tie ( slip-mate) but most people like to see a tie?she may be not ready, how is she reacting to the dog when he tries to mount her? is he actually getting inside her and doing the 'happy feet' dance as this is when he releases the sperm?


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## ClaireandDaisy

oh dear . I might be a horrible person here but an inexperienced owner/ first time breeder and a similar owner of the stud sound like a recipe for a disaster to me. You would be better calling a a vet or talk to an experienced breeder... or even a book. I recommend you get `The Book of the Bitch`, and talk to a professional dog breeder. 
If you want to abort the mating, you can speak to your vet. If you want to wait and see, you can also ask you vet to do a test.
(I have edited out my initial reaction . lol. )


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## gypsybitch

hi i was just wondering what the result was of this mating the op was a few month ago i hope if she was preg she is safe and sound now.
i understand your frustration, but i also understand other peoples too. 

every 'breeder' started off somewhere so dont take to much to heart, the people on here are animal people and are just concerned for the welfare of your dog is all. 

i was at a preplanned breeding of a staffy to staffy a while ago and i didnt know what to expect but i got through it, they locked and it took an hr for him to release her they tried to pull apart but we all held them together. 

i hope you dog had no problems with the birth if she was preg and i hope all the puppies are in and stay in great health 

good luck with everything


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## sammiemacey2010

i do no what im doing i allso have a staffy bitch and have bred her and she has had 2 helthy liter they didnt have a problem locking together and now with my english bull bitch the mail doesnt seem to be geting locked thats all so im not irasponable at all i just wasnt ecspeting this and as for the other question yes he is getting it in and doing the dancing feet his locking nuts cum out then he slips out ?


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## tinkerhell!

oh my goodness, thank god people evolved to help dogs mate or they would be extinct.....!!!! seriously i appreciate your concerns but injury whilst mating really is a minority !


----------



## tinkerhell!

jadiee-x said:


> Hi,
> A week ago I bred my labmaraner bitch Meg to a weimaraner stud, Balou.
> Right away Balou was very attracted to her, within 2 seconds of first seeing her, he tried mounting her, of which we pulled apart as we didnt quite want them doing their business in the middle of the kitchen!
> 
> Well, Meg is 2 and half years old, on her 3rd season. For the first couple of hours, Meg just wanted to play, after a wile she allowed Balou to mount her but he just wasnt aiming properly.
> We left them alone for a little while as they were a bit distracted and kept looking at us, just like a child would do when they meet new friends. Please note there was someone on hand, just not me or the studs owner.
> 
> Well, when my mum checked up on them she did notice what she believed to be semen dripping out of Meg after Balou had mounted her. However this wasnt very long atall, we arent sure just how long this lasted but they werent left out of our sight for more than 5-10 minutes. However we are very certain they hadnt tied atall.
> 
> For two dogs to mate without tying, how quick could this last for a successful litter. I hear they can concieve without tying.
> 
> 48 hours after, we tried again, this time at the studs house. The two dogs tried once and my girl pulled away, the boy didnt even try to mount after and they just werent interested in eachother, so we came back home.
> 
> Meg was showing some strange behaviour after the first 'mating' she was just moping around feeling sorry for herself and just wasn't her usual self.
> Since she has bucked up a bit and is almost her normal self, but she is getting very weary of our 5 year old, whom she usually tolerates completely no matter what he does to her.
> Ive noticed too, that since she has been bred when she get protective her fur rises on her scruff and her back. Ive seen this on other dogs, but for meg this is a new thing!
> 
> We dont have our hopes up as we know its very unlikely for her to have concieved, but she has just been acting strangely since. The day after the first time also, she wouldn't eat her meat in her dinner either, completely didnt wanna know anything. Which i believe was the VERY first time she has ever turned down tinned dog food!! :scared:
> 
> This was indeed our first time breeding and have researched as much as we can, but tings like this just cant be found without asking others that have been through the experience of a possibly pregnant bitch.
> 
> Any help will be absolutely great!!
> Thank you :arf:


my bithch didn't tie with the stud dog, in fact he only penetrated her 3 times but she had 6 pups exactly on time 9 weeks later.


----------



## we love bsh's

DoubleTrouble said:


> I know of a dog whose chip has moved as it happens! The owner knows this! it has moved way down the shoulder!! Returning to the UK they had to insist that the scan were repeated until it were found! Maybe that person will come along and tell the full story soon if she reads this thread!


some chips can even migrate to the paws on some animals it has been known before,when this does happen and the chip is located petlog or who the chip was registered to must be contacted so it can be added to the pets notes. x


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## noushka05

tinkerhell! said:


> oh my goodness, thank god people evolved to help dogs mate or they would be extinct.....!!!! seriously i appreciate your concerns but injury whilst mating really is a minority !


 i have heard of dogs and bitches suffer serious damage and ive Known bitches get very aggressive!....only the most irresponsible breeder would take a risk however small!!!


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## pearltheplank

tinkerhell! said:


> oh my goodness, thank god people evolved to help dogs mate or they would be extinct.....!!!! seriously i appreciate your concerns but injury whilst mating really is a minority !


That may well be true but I wouldn't leave it to chance. Only on Saturday, my friends dog died just before the mating took place


----------



## we love bsh's

sammiemacey2010 said:


> i do no what im doing i allso have a staffy bitch and have bred her and she has had 2 helthy liter they didnt have a problem locking together and now with my english bull bitch the mail doesnt seem to be geting locked thats all so im not irasponable at all i just wasnt ecspeting this and as for the other question yes he is getting it in and doing the dancing feet his locking nuts cum out then he slips out ?


I just wondered if you knew that staffys are the main breed that are currently filling up the rescue centers and rescue centers are that over run with them that every day there are lots of staffys been pts,im not having a dig just politly giving you some info as any pups you have or will breed may just be one of these poor staffys getting pts one day as there is not enough homes for them all. x


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## swarthy

tinkerhell! said:


> oh my goodness, thank god people evolved to help dogs mate or they would be extinct.....!!!! seriously i appreciate your concerns but injury whilst mating really is a minority !


It is, because in the main - responsible owners ensure it is done properly - also how do you know that - I suspect such news doesn't hit the papers very often.

Once dogs are tied, they are tied - if a bitch bolts or a dog tries to pull away and those dogs aren't being held - then there is HUGE capacity for injury.

Yes, dogs ancestors mated in the wild - have you done a comprehensive study on how many died during / after mating and while giving birth / raising their young? no I suspect not. Likewise - MANY MANY wild animals die during mating season and while giving birth - in one species across the board - statistically 4 out of 5 generations are wiped out at birth - luckily for them the species numbers are so high - the remaining one generation of species are sufficient to keep it from extinction.

In the wild you also have the male on male aggression that comes with mating seasons and also leads to the death of the weaker pursuing suitors.

The simple fact is presumably owners love their pets who are members of their family first and foremost - so why on earth would owners want to place their beloved pets at even more risk?

It's not about humans evolving to ensure dogs can mate properly, it's about people caring enough to minimise the risks of anything happening to their beloved pets.

Whether they were once primitive wild animals is immaterial - they are now wholly domesticated and it remains a fact that they need assistance with both mating and whelping to maximise the chance of survival and minimal damage to the dogs and the bitch's offspring.


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## Tapir

sammiemacey2010 said:


> i do no what im doing* i allso have a staffy bitch and have bred her and she has had 2 helthy liter *they didnt have a problem locking together and now with my english bull bitch the mail doesnt seem to be geting locked thats all so im not irasponable at all i just wasnt ecspeting this and as for the other question yes he is getting it in and doing the dancing feet his locking nuts cum out then he slips out ?


says it all


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## Taylorbaby

what a 'labmaraner' ?


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## XxZoexX

A lab crossed with a wiemy i think


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## Taylorbaby

XxZoexX said:


> A lab crossed with a wiemy i think


ahhhhh ok lol! just looked at the pics on her profile, they were shocked that the litter werre all solid colours? from 2 solid dogs... I wouldnt be that shocked!


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## hazel pritchard

Taylorbaby said:


> what a 'labmaraner' ?


I think its just "another crossbreed "


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## Devil-Dogz

Taylorbaby said:


> what a 'labmaraner' ?


A stupid name - to make something seem, something its not!


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## Pointermum

this threads a year old ... still sad reading it though


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## midnightvelvet

Tapir said:


> says it all


Good grief!! What am I reading here??? On second thoughts, don't tell me!
A friend of mine - and experienced breeder I believe, has just lost her bitch after a disastrous mating which resulted in the bitch hemorrhaging.

I have no idea what could have happened to cause that as I have no experience other than what I've heard and read but as I plan to breed a litter in about 2 yrs from my bitch, I am quite worried.

I would also like to mention the way in which the poster who originated this topic was barracked was somewhat rude and uncalled for. I agree that she was irresponsible but surely, talking to people in that manner only serves to make them stop asking questions - however silly they may sound - which in turn is a bigger risk to an animal. At least if they are given an explanation, a medical emergency might be avoided.


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## hazel pritchard

jadiee-x said:


> I completely understand what that must of sound like, but I myself was not there for those 5 minutes, they were with my dad who was on the full understanding that if they just happened to tie during that time to hold Meg still and not let her panic
> He just isnt aware of how long Balou had managed to get his way with our girl, as everytime he was mounting her he was missing completely.
> 
> Secondly Balou the stud, .
> 
> Im here to be given adivce and not to be called irresponsible, yes tell me they shouldnt have been left alone, but you dont have to tell me im stupid and irresponsible for doing it. The stud dogs owner was the one to tell us to leave them for 5 minutes, meaning me and them, as we seemed to be the ones that were looked upon by the dogs every 30 seconds. We were just in the next room out of the dogs way.


I feel i have to ask why would someone with a "is an experienced stud not a maiden dog " want it to mate with a x breed bitch???


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## SpicyBulldog

jadiee-x said:


> Why are you trying to catch me out?
> I came on here asking for advice not for people to show their claws.
> 
> As i mentioned we KNOW it was not a tie mating. The dogs were mounting on and off for hours, but each time we could see he was not aiming in the right direction. Obviously, my dad wasn't aware that the stud had actually managed to enter her, thus not recalling how long he was inside her, it could have been 10 seconds, it could have been 5 mintues. We were called and the dogs unmounted, this is when my mum saw this.
> 
> Please may I also re-mention this was a first time mating experience. Im not a breeder and I'm not going to be doing everything the way experts like to do it. I done research and also took advice from the stud owner, as Balou has had several litters. Yes I made mistakes and was a tad clumsy, but I would never ever put my dog at risk on purpose.


What I don't understand is why did you just not get the breeding done?! 

He was mounting on and off for hours.


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## midnightvelvet

Taylorbaby said:


> what a 'labmaraner' ?


A labereiner or whatever its called is another cross breed, - a mongrel for want of a better word.


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## gayle38

midnightvelvet said:


> A labereiner or whatever its called is another cross breed, - a mongrel for want of a better word.


I see we have some stuck up people on here.
There is nothing wrong with crossbreeds or mongrels.
But alot wrong with pure breeds. In-breeding for starters.
Also cruel as many beeds suffer so they conform to the breed standard.:mad2:
Down with the Kennel Club.


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## ClaireandDaisy

This thread is 2 years old.......
any reason it keeps getting dragged up?


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## dexter

gayle38 said:


> I see we have some stuck up people on here.
> There is nothing wrong with crossbreeds or mongrels.
> But alot wrong with pure breeds. In-breeding for starters.
> Also cruel as many beeds suffer so they conform to the breed standard.:mad2:
> Down with the Kennel Club.


welcome to PF ....................... a nice first post 

oh yeah i forgot its the school holidays


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## dexter

ClaireandDaisy said:


> This thread is 2 years old.......
> any reason it keeps getting dragged up?


its school holidays


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## gayle38

dexter said:


> its school holidays


Its been a long time since I was at school.


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## Guest

I have to say it: there is no such thing as a *'labmaraner'......!*

I presume you mean a Lab x Weim?

Given how many Labs end up in rescue, and that there are more than a few Weims needing new homes too, I personally don't think it's right to create yet more puppies. Yes, I know the thread was not about this but I'm sorry, I think it needs to be said.

Haven't read the whole thread so my apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

******just realised this thread is an old one........!*


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## Mind urs

swarthy said:


> A bitch can get pregnant from a slip mating, but to leave what sounds like two maiden dogs alone to mate is sheer stupidity and quite irresponsible, you are lucky you don't have a seriously injured stud, bitch or both. In fact, to leave any two dogs alone for mating is quite irresponsible.
> 
> It sounds like you weren't even there, what would you have done if they had tied, and the bitch had panicked - the consequences could have been VERY serious. What if the dog had got stuck turning on the tie and panicked?
> 
> Dogs don't have the same emotions as humans, and quite often to get a successful tie, you need to get pretty personal with the dog, hence why owning a stud dog is not for the faint hearted


Wow so judge mental .... just answer their question and if you don't got it move a long. I'm sure when god created dogs he didn't add the assistance of humans to help conceive their pups.... lol so stop giving this person a hard time in stead of being a rude irresponsible person why not help since that's why people are on here.


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## Calvine

Mind urs said:


> Wow so judge mental .... just answer their question and if you don't got it move a long. I'm sure when god created dogs he didn't add the assistance of humans to help conceive their pups.... lol so stop giving this person a hard time in stead of being a rude irresponsible person why not help since that's why people are on here.


Have you seen how ancient this thread is (think it started seven years ago) . . . plenty of newer ones for you to reply to!!
Welcome to the forum by the way.


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## Mind urs

jadiee-x said:


> I completely understand what that must of sound like, but I myself was not there for those 5 minutes, they were with my dad who was on the full understanding that if they just happened to tie during that time to hold Meg still and not let her panic
> He just isnt aware of how long Balou had managed to get his way with our girl, as everytime he was mounting her he was missing completely.
> 
> Secondly Balou the stud, is an experienced stud not a maiden dog.
> 
> Im here to be given adivce and not to be called irresponsible, yes tell me they shouldnt have been left alone, but you dont have to tell me im stupid and irresponsible for doing it. The stud dogs owner was the one to tell us to leave them for 5 minutes, meaning me and them, as we seemed to be the ones that were looked upon by the dogs every 30 seconds. We were just in the next room out of the dogs way.


I wouldn't explain to anyone unless they are trying to help. I hate judge mental people. Hope you get the answer you were trying to find.


Calvine said:


> Have you seen how ancient this thread is (think it started seven years ago) . . . plenty of newer ones for you to reply to!!
> Welcome to the forum by the way.


Haha I'm well aware thank you lol


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## Calvine

Mind urs said:


> Haha I'm well aware thank you lol


Most of the people who posted on the thread are no longer active on the forum as far as I can see . . . so consequently won't see your post.


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## simplysardonic

Mind urs said:


> I wouldn't explain to anyone unless they are trying to help. *I hate judge mental people.* Hope you get the answer you were trying to find.
> 
> Haha I'm well aware thank you lol


Hate is a strong word, but as it's the one you have chosen, I 'hate' people who breed animals indiscriminately, give them silly names & sell them for large amounts of money.

I reserve the right to pass judgment on such people because their animals get no choice in this matter.

I take it by the aggressive tone of your first post you are either a backyard breeder, puppy farmer, or someone who thinks it's acceptable to buy from such people.


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## LinznMilly

I think it's about time this thread was allowed to die and rest forever in the annals of cyberspace. 

:Locktopic


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