# Hip score



## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

HI 
I have just received my dogs hip score and it s 7/6. i have a Hungarian Vizsla and I am pretty sure the breed average is 12 (typical) Does this mean I should definitely not breed from her. I would not want to be irresponsible.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

You need to talk to a breeder really and see what they say as some breeders may use higher hip scores if they can offer other things to the breed, do vizla's have any other things that need to be tested for?
I would definatly talk to a breeder though x


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

The latest figures I have are 2004 and 2005 and the Breed Mean Score for Vislas is 12. You should have got the 2007 figures when you got your result but I'll just use what I have to hand as they won't be much different.

Firstly, well done for havng her hip-scored.
The figures for Vizlas show that 930 individuals have been scored under the KC/BVA Scheme since 1983 so lets call it a twenty year period as I have the 2005 figures. It's important to note that out of this total, 140 dogs were hip scored in the year between the 2004 and 2005 figures, roughly 1/6 th of the twenty year total, so Vizla owners/breeders are taking the issue seriously.

The Scheme notes say _*Breeders wishing to reduce the risk of hip dysplasia should choose stock with scores WELL BELOW the breed mean scores (BMS)*_. 
Your bitch is on the BMS so I expect this is why you are wondering whether to breed her.

My understanding of the hip dysplasis problem is that it is a 'nature and nurture' situation with hereditary factors and environmental factors (feeding, exercise etc) both playing a part. So a single hip score gives only a limited amount of information. What is far more important is to look at the pedigree of your bitch both in length and breadth.
Length - see if her parents, grandparents etc have been hip scored.
Breadth - see if litter mates and earlier progeny of the sire & dam have been hip scored.
Your breed club may well be able to help with this. 
What you are looking for is a range of good scores with her relatives, because if that range is there, the risk of hip dysplasia is very much reduced, compared to looking at the risk based on one score only.

Also, bear in mind that only the really caring breeders/owners would be willing to hip-score. They are the tip of the iceberg. So the figures actually do not reflect the true Breed Mean Score because of the number of unscored dogs.

Let me give you an example from my breed, ESS. In the same year that 140 Vizlas were hip-scored, only 65 ESS (and two of them were mine). But an average of 15,000 ESS are registered each year with the KC and lets say about another 5000 (conservative estimate) born but 'no papers'. So 65 out of 20,000 in one year or a total of 627 ESS over twenty years, a figure somewhere over a quarter of a million. So the figures are not indicative of the true situation of the risk of hip dysplasis in ESS.

But back to your young bitch. Take all the breeding points into consideration, hip score is just one of many, and this is where experienced breeders of Vizlas can help you. And if she makes the grade on the other points, go ahead when you and she are ready.

On the hip-score alone I would have no qualms about breeding her - and I would only not do so if the family trend was badly adverse.

Sgurr


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

vizzy24 said:


> HI
> I have just received my dogs hip score and it s 7/6. i have a Hungarian Vizsla and I am pretty sure the breed average is 12 (typical) Does this mean I should definitely not breed from her. I would not want to be irresponsible.


thats a pretty good score the lower the numbers are the better.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Well, for me, hip score _alone_ would mean I would _not_ breed from her. One of the aims of breeding is to improve the breed as a whole, and part of that is aiming to bring down the BMS for hips.

Having said that, if all other health tests had good results, and the bitch was a good example of the breed and had done well in the show ring, plus I could find a stud dog that suited her with a lower hip score, then yes, I would consider breeding from her.

I agree with what sguur has said about loking into the hip scores of her parents/grandparents, siblings etc.


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## chiangel (Sep 12, 2008)

Personally i would not breed from her, anything over 10 in total is a bad score in my opinion. The aim of breeding is to improve the health also, this wouldn't be the case with your bitch. You may well get a puppy with good low hip scores if bred to a sire with low hip scores, but you could also have pup with even higher scores than your bitch. 

Im not having a go, but there are too many breeders out there ruining dogs health.


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

I think you have to keep the question of hip scores in context of the overall situation with the breed.
Again, let me speak of ESS as I know that situation best. For the year I quoted earlier, 65 ESS were hip scored and there are around 20,000 ESS born annually. Now ESS have two lines - show lines and field trial lines and it's been like that since about the 1930's.
The majority of breeders doing any testing (hips, eyes, dna) are from the show lines so their studs are not suitable for my ESS bitch, hip score 13 which is the Breed Mean Score.
There is a well respected field trial line breeder in Devon who has been health testing ESS for 20 years and she has a good stud currently with hip score 8. I know of one other breeder with a stud, hip score 9, in Essex and one breeder in the north of England who is 'thinking about hip scoring'. And that's it for field trial and just a few more for show lines.

So 20,000 dogs per year and lets say only 10% of them are bred, 2000 breeding dogs, 50% are bitches say, (probably more but lets keep the numbers easy) so that's 1000 ESS bitches breeding per year. And I have one of the only 4 hip scored bitches I can find in the UK (on the internet) and I should not breed from her as her hip score is the BMS and not significantly under it.

Well I have bred from her. She is a lovely bitch with a beautiful temperament and an excellent pedigree. She's also dna clear both genes for the three identifiable genetic conditions that affect ESS so none of her pups will be affected by Fuco, PFK and PRA.
The sire was 4/3 and dna clear both genes for those conditions, so in fact the pups were hereditarily clear.

Now my view is that hip scores are just part of the big picture and current thinking is leaning towards the environmental issues as having far more importance than genetic predisposition. You can have a dog with much higher than BMS hip scores that can produce pups with very good hip scores - the depth and breadth of the pedigree is much more important than an individual score. How do you assess the pedigree in a breed such as ESS where hip displasia is an issue but very, very few of us hip score. Well you have to start somewhere - so I bred the bitch and I'm encouraging the people who have her pups to get them hip scored. I would say I am making (in a very small way) a more significant contribution to improve the ESS breed by breeding from a health checked bitch, rather than not using her on the basis of an average hip score.

Sgurr


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks for all of your advice. I have spoken to a couple of people in the vizsla world about the scores as well. They advised me that as it was a fairly even score then it's not too much of a worry. They also advised that If I do breed from her then to try and make sure I find a sire with a low hip score. There are many things that I will consider nearer to the time so my mind is far from made up at the moment. I do love her dearly and I think she is a good example of the breed but I am biased so I will be getting someone much more qualified than myself to have a look at her. I think the hip scores are a serious consideration but they must also be weighed up against all the aspects of my dogs confirmation/genes/temperament etc. I suppose this is my worse case scenario (apart from the fact she may have suffered later in life) as far as hip scoring was involved. If it was 12 its within the bms but does 1 point make all that difference? Well I suppose we could all go round in circles with this one, after all there is a bms for a reason. I must admit its a tricky one.Thanks for your advice it does help to hear other peoples opinions.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I would go ahead and breed from her it is a good score as they go and if you do your homework and use a dog with either a low score OR a dog known to be a 'hip improver' you should be fine


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Don't forget an even score of 7/6 is better than a score of 7/0 . Even though added together the 7 would seem better than 13.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Tollisty said:


> Don't forget an even score of 7/6 is better than a score of 7/0 . Even though added together the 7 would seem better than 13.


Agree with that totally


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

I got the info yesterday and the KC 2008 Breeders Symposium has a presentation on hip and elbow scoring - I hope to go (Glasgow) anyone else?

Sgurr


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2008)

Tollisty said:


> Don't forget an even score of 7/6 is better than a score of 7/0 . Even though added together the 7 would seem better than 13.


Can you explain that for me please. I presume it's to do with them being even?


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

Essentially if the scores are so uneven, the dog will have problems on one side that are more difficult to cope with than balanced problems later in life - very simply put, a one sided limp and arthritis sets in (as it will) because the dog is likely to favour one side. If one back leg fails it is harder for the dog than both back legs having similar problems due to the later effects of HD. But it may be six or seven years before the problem becomes apparent without doing a hip score to see the potential. Dogs are very stoical.

Sgurr


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

I was interested to read that a couple of people have stated (or agreed with the statement) that a score of 7:6 is better than a score of 7:0. I really disagree with this statement, I'm afraid . 

If I'm looking at a dog as "breeding stock" (all of mine are pets first and foremost  ), then I would much prefer to see a score of 7:0. To me, 7:6 indicates a possible weakness in the hips (not phrasing this very well, I know, and being very simplistic!) whereas 7:0 would possibly indicate a genetic predisposition to good hips, with perhaps a bit of damage to one hip.

As a matter of interest, I've had a bitch with a score of 24:3 (knocked down whilst a puppy, very lame for ages afterwards). Once she was sound and fit, she never showed any weakness on that hip. In fact, she was still winning at very high levels as an old girl and winning on her movement (BOB Crufts 1996, age 9, bitch CC Crufts 1998, age 11, BIS Club show at 10 etc!!)

Having said all this - I would not dismiss a really good quality bitch, with a very good temperament, from a breeding programme for being slightly over the breed average, but I would be very careful about my choice of stud, looking for consistently low scores on his pedigree and investigating the scores of his progeny.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Ridgielover said:


> I was interested to read that a couple of people have stated (or agreed with the statement) that a score of 7:6 is better than a score of 7:0. I really disagree with this statement, I'm afraid .
> 
> If I'm looking at a dog as "breeding stock" (all of mine are pets first and foremost  ), then I would much prefer to see a score of 7:0. To me, 7:6 indicates a possible weakness in the hips (not phrasing this very well, I know, and being very simplistic!) whereas 7:0 would possibly indicate a genetic predisposition to good hips, with perhaps a bit of damage to one hip.
> 
> ...


The difference is that you know where the uneven hip score came from, we had one with an uneven score that had had an accident and it is a shame that they dont take that into account when scoring them, especially when the damage was there to see, as the vet asked me where the scarring on the hip originated from, but also know of one that had an uneven hip score with no accident and turned out to need a hip replacement in later life.

Just trying to say that you need to know the background well on these dogs before using them


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

_"Just trying to say that you need to know the background well on these dogs before using them  "_

Couldn't agree with you more


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks for that, very informative.


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

I find the Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals (in the USA) very helpful for hip information, much more so than the BVA/KC.
OFA awards seven grades to the radiograph of the hips:

Excellent Good Fair (all classed as normal)
Borderline
Mild Moderate Severe (all classed as displastic)

The following quote is from their breeding guidelines

_Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect.

OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals

Breed normals to normals 
Breed normals with normal ancestry 
Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD 
Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD 
Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average _

So the Vizla bitch with a score of 7/6 (13) rates as OFA Fair (BVA/KC 11 to 18)
Up to December 2007 there were 11,015 Vizlas rated of which 15.8% were classed as excellent and 7.2% as Dysplastic

I looked up two or three other breeds that people on the forum have, just out of interest, again the figures are to December 2007.

Vizla 11,015 dogs 15.8% Excellent 7.2%Displastic
ESS 12,388 8.0% 13.6% 
Cavalier KC 4349 4.0% 11.7%
Basset 194 0.0% 37.6%
Pug 346 0.0% 62.1%

If you want to check for your breed, Google OFA and pick out Hips from the box on the left -fairly easy site to navigate. The KC Accredited Breeder Scheme recommends (not requires) hip scoring for ESS but the Pug does not even get on their list.

I apologise in advance if the columns come out funny - I never can do tables on a forum

Sgurr


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2008)

Tollisty said:


> Don't forget an even score of 7/6 is better than a score of 7/0 . Even though added together the 7 would seem better than 13.


How does this work out?? sorry to sound thick but my dog has a 0/0 hip score - I thought that was perfect - am I wrong?


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2008)

Sorry re my above post - just realized what you are saying!


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

Congratulations on having a 0/0 hip scored dog! What is the breed?

Sgurr


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2008)

Weimaraner - and sorry but I mislead you there - my dog is not old enough for a hip score yet - but HER MOTHER has the 0/0/ hip score - that is why I chose her. And yes I am as proud of punch seeing it in black and white on her pedigree.
regards
sue


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