# Mouse culling



## Le Loup

I learnt something dreadful yesterday! 

I found out that people who breed mice kill the babies!!!  

They do it because they want big mice, nice marked mice or they don't want males!!! how horrible!!!!!!

To think i was going to buy from a breeder!!! 

Well not now, i'm going to get rescues. I'm disgusted at this act of cruelty.


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## Guest

Well maybe if you go to a mass producing breeder they might cull the "undesirables" but tbh I REALLY wouldn't want to buy from someone that mass produces anyway!! Finding out they cull babies doesn't really shock me  Disgusts me, yes, shocks, no. I imagine you'll probably find that they likely then sell on the dead babies as food for other pets.

Find yourself a nice hobby breeder and you'll be fine!

I like your idea of rescuing better though


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## ringses

I think it happens with lots of animals not just mice. Dalmation puppies are sometimes put down if they don't have enough spots, its so sad to think healthy animals are killed for no good reason. I guess thats the way they make the most money. It's not just anyone who breeds them though, people who breed for a hobby like me love their animals (check out my pics of my harvest mice babies).


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## Mischievous_Mark

At the risk of everyone disliking me.

I cull down litters. I take the numbers down to 3-5 because its less stressful for the mother, i take out all the boys then any females that are small. this allows the other babies to grown much bigger and healthier.

The babies i take out and cull do not go to waste, i dont throw them away and i dont make money from them. I give them to my friends who have reptiles so they can be fed a healthy mouse rather than a frozen mouse from a petshop that has no history of health ect.

I repeat the babies i cull go to feeding snakes because snakes have to eat too.

Edit : Also the reason many breeders like myself cull down on males is because they are a lot harder to rehome, Not many people like the musky smell of male mice. They cant be rehomed in pairs as in the future they are likely to fight and kill eachother.


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## ringses

Mark is it easy to tell the difference between male and female when they are born, I ask because I have just started breeding Harvest mice and can't tell the difference till they get near maturity, wondered if you can tell me how you tell with normal mice?


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## Mischievous_Mark

Its the distance between the anus and genitals, For pinkies you need to get a lot of practice in ive just started to get 100 % right out of my past 2 litters.

I had to use pictures which are on another forum which i can link you to if you wish.

I wait until they are 3 days old this stimulates the milk flow of the mother, and if im unsure i wait till nipples start to show then its much eaiser.


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## Le Loup

at the riskof anyone disliking you!?

What the...? Thats horrible!? You cull them so you get fatter mice. not so the female can cope better. Rats can have 22 babies and i don't know ANY rat breeders that murder the babies.

If you can't manage the litters then don't breed. How can you live with yourself?


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## Mischievous_Mark

The babies are "culled" for a reason, To feed snakes and other reptiles. Admittedly its males that go for snake food but like i have explained they are becoming harder and harder to rehome. My mice are healthy and well cared for. Im even putting my own education at risk here as i have no money to go to college thursday and friday just so my mice and rats can get the best diet for them.

Surely you wouldnt want an animal to go hungry would you?


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## SeaThreePeeO

Lets not forget that there are valid reasons for culling babies in breeding all species of animals.

Reasons such as stated above large litter sizes and of course deformities and abnormalities that would prevent the animal from leading a happy and healthy life.

It also happens in farming.

Of course if it was left to nature the balance would be address by disease and preditors.


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## Le Loup

yes well i'm vegan so i don't agree with farming animals for our pleasure! I alsodo not see why killing baby mice can be for the best. I have 10 rats, a rabbit and am soon getting rescue mice. I wouldn't kill them if something drstic happened and i couldn't afford them!

This is seriously sick. Talking as if it's "for the best" who are you kidding? The rat breeders did say mice breeders weren't as nice as rat breeders. As i said before rats have the same size litters as mice yet rat breeders don't murder the babies. 

Rat breeders don't actually breed for money, they breed because they like rats. Culing mice must be for mone. You get money for selling the murdered bodies of the babies and you tell yourself it's for the good of the mother and your other animals. Well you know fine well it isn't. Wild mice cope perfectly ok, yes they lose some due to natural selection but domestic mice cope fine. I've never heard of rats or mice struggling due to normal sized litters. Mice are built to cope with large litters, i've seen many wild baby mice running around my garage, ones which have survived in the wild and ones which have been in huge litters.


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## Mischievous_Mark

I can esure you i dont sell the babies that i have culled i give them to friends to feed there animals.

Do some reseach first you cant make a profit from breeding mice, You spend more raising a litter, or at least i dont make money from them yes i sell them but the money goes straight back into the mice.

As for rat breeders saying mice breeders are worse for culling, I know a rat breeder and she says that rat breeders arent that much better either and that some can be quite rude.

Moneywise im sure rat breeders make a lot more money from breeder than mice breeder do.

I sell my mice at £3 each, To my left ive got 4 female rats that cost me £10 each, Behind me ive got 2 males that cost £10 for the pair as i rescued them from being snake food ( this was when i didnt care much about snakes but now my attitude has changed and i dont mind them or the fact that they eat mice )


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## Le Loup

Rat breeders don't make money from selling rats most of the time and they do not make much of a profit. Being rude is slightly different from killing your own pets. 

Why breed something you can't rehome?


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## ringses

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Its the distance between the anus and genitals, For pinkies you need to get a lot of practice in ive just started to get 100 % right out of my past 2 litters.
> 
> I had to use pictures which are on another forum which i can link you to if you wish.
> 
> I wait until they are 3 days old this stimulates the milk flow of the mother, and if im unsure i wait till nipples start to show then its much eaiser.


That would be great if you could link it Mark, I am still very new to breeding them and I don't want to get it wrong and start getting the babies in-breeding with each other.


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## Fade to Grey

i'mconfused because people have to breed mice for repitle food, so is this wrong?
should my snakes have to die because there'snot food, surely this is just the same as one rat dying.


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## ringses

Fade to Grey said:


> i'mconfused because people have to breed mice for repitle food, so is this wrong?
> should my snakes have to die because there'snot food, surely this is just the same as one rat dying.


I think Le Loup is against anything dying, e.g. you should make your snake a nice nut roast to eat......lol


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## Le Loup

I think its very cruel to rear animals and then kill them for food. Snakes and reptiles is a touchy situation because yes snakes have to eat. In an ideal world if you have to kll an animal to feed an your pet you shouldn't have it as a pet. But obviously you will dissagree with that because you like snakes. 

Being vegan i don't believe in raising animals for food...for ANY species.

And i certainly don't agree with people breeding mice and murdering the young and telling people its because snakes need to eat. the next step is feeding the snakes live mice!


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## Mischievous_Mark

Le Loup said:


> I think its very cruel to rear animals and then kill them for food. Snakes and reptiles is a touchy situation because yes snakes have to eat. In an ideal world if you have to kll an animal to feed an your pet you shouldn't have it as a pet. But obviously you will dissagree with that because you like snakes.
> 
> Being vegan i don't believe in raising animals for food...for ANY species.
> 
> And i certainly don't agree with people breeding mice and murdering the young and telling people its because snakes need to eat. the next step is feeding the snakes live mice!


Live feeding is horrible and illegal over here.

The mice i raise for food have a good diet, a healthy size are not over bred. I use the two most humane methods causing less stress as possible.

"True animal lovers, Love all animals not just selected species" a little quote ive heard somewhere dont ask me where because it was long ago but it just sticks in my mind.

I know you can get snakes that eat bird eggs only,do you believe that is also wrong.

Do you also believe that nature is wrong aswel ? animals eat animals deal with it. If people chose to keep an animal that eats other animals then its there responsiblity to find the best food source avaiable.

Im sure if i was to breed my rats id make more money than i am at the moment breeding mice.

i keep my mice in a shed, which is well isulated, lighted, heated and has a good airflow. I spend £100-£150 a month on stuff for my mice and rats.

I only have about 27 mice at the moment and 6 rats ( thinking about rescuing some more females as the 4 i have all came from breeders )


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## Le Loup

Feeding animals to animals is completly different to animals hunting and catching their prey in the wild. in the wild the mice that your snakes eat don't get killed by a human and fed to the snake. They have to use their ingenuity to find and cath the food, then the mice have just as much chance escaping as they do getting caught. You can't possibly compare that to you feeding a mouse you killed to a snake.

Also can i add i opened this topic because i was horrified of what mouse breeders do. I do not want a discussion about how you can justify you murdering baby mice so you can look cool owning a snake. 

Please if you going to argue with me constantly on how "moral" and how "humane" it is to cull down litters then i'd like a moderator to close this thread because it's just advertising cruelty in everyway. 

Do you go about culling down kittens and puppies too? i bet you don't so don't try to tell me that killing baby animals is right and perfectly ok.


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## Roborovski

This is quite similiar to choosing between owning a pig, feeding him up and eating him or buying frozen meat from Tesco. Either way a pig dies and gets up on my dinner table, but I prefer not to know what happens to that poor little piggy so I opt for Tesco.

So if I owned a snake, I would probably deem it more acceptable to buy frozen mice from a pet shop and feed that, rather than breed my own mice. Its just about morals at the end of the day.


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## Mischievous_Mark

Roborovski said:


> This is quite similiar to choosing between owning a pig, feeding him up and eating him or buying frozen meat from Tesco. Either way a pig dies and gets up on my dinner table, but I prefer not to know what happens to that poor little piggy so I opt for Tesco.
> 
> So if I owned a snake, I would probably deem it more acceptable to buy frozen mice from a pet shop and feed that, rather than breed my own mice. Its just about morals at the end of the day.


Frozen mice are horrible from pet shops they are over bred are not in the best of health.

You dont have to breed your own mice to feed your snake, you can look for other breeders of mice that sell them as snake food.

Healthy mouse = Healthy snake.

________________________________________________

I dont have a snake, but in the near future i will be getting one and id rather give them healthy mice rather than pet shop mice.

Maybe you didnt open this as a discussion but thats what youve got as youve just said how horrible people are for doing it you havent researched the pros it only the cons.

Also not every mouse breeder culls down on litters and not every rat breeder tells to truth about not culling as im sure some do otherwise people wouldnt be able to by frozen rats or rat pups and rat pinkies.


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## Sungold-Bengals

Le Loup said:


> Do you go about culling down kittens and puppies too? i bet you don't so don't try to tell me that killing baby animals is right and perfectly ok.


This thread has been quite interesting.
I had never thought about where all the frozen mice & chicks had come from in the local pet shops.

I think you are being unfair with your quote about kittens & puppies.
Mark has made no mention of culling kittens & puppies.

If I owned a snake I would like to buy the food from someone who had cared for them beforehand. As long as he treats his animals well & culls them in a humane way - I see no problem.

Snakes have to eat, so let them eat Mark's mice.

I think you will just have to agree to disagree on this one & give the moderators a break, they have enough to do.


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## Mese

One thing that interests me Le Loup and I mean no disrespect , its just a question thats occured to me

You have dogs dont you ?
do you feed them meat or deny them their natural diet because of your own beliefs ?


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## guineapigqueen

You can not tarnish all mice/rat/small breeders with the same brush.

My friend breeds mice for her own enjoyment and she does cull on occasion due to the high amount born in litters. I think she has culled 4 out of a litter of 18! and the mother killed 4 more.

Mother nature also cull and you say nothing about that. I used to have a small collection of mice a few years ago and my first girl gave birth to 14, when they were ready to leave only 8 was alive. I remember finding one and it was dragged from the nest and half eaten, I could not see anything wrong with it but obs to the mother something was a miss. 

I have Guinea Pigs and I know of some evil breeder that will kill any male(boar) that is born because he doesn't want people getting their hands on his show 'stock', I also know this man doesn't have a pig in his shed over 2yrs old. 

It happened within any breeding process, dogs, cats, rabbits, small rodents, farm, wild animals. Sometimes its unnecessary due to the animal being the wrong sex or markings but if an animal is born with an illness is it right to keep it alive? We have the option to terminate children with Downs etc, so what is the difference?

Emma x


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## Mischievous_Mark

Ive only culled down on my last 3 litters as i still have 4 males from my 1st show litter. Thankfully they all get along so they can all live in the same tub, Yes that right i said tub as in storage tub converted into a cage.


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## Roborovski

guineapigqueen said:


> You can not tarnish all mice/rat/small breeders with the same brush.
> 
> My friend breeds mice for her own enjoyment and she does cull on occasion due to the high amount born in litters. I think she has culled 4 out of a litter of 18! and the mother killed 4 more.


I think this is where I would probably start agreeing with the statement of don't breed if you don't have the space. If it's healthy then it should live. This is a questionable act on your friends behalf.



guineapigqueen said:


> It happened within any breeding process, dogs, cats, rabbits, small rodents, farm, wild animals. Sometimes its unnecessary due to the animal being the wrong sex or markings but if an animal is born with an illness is it right to keep it alive? We have the option to terminate children with Downs etc, so what is the difference?
> 
> Emma x


As for this, I completely agree that on the grounds of deformaties etc it is more than acceptable to cull (and feed to your snake, per say) but sadly I do not think we were talking just about necessary cullings.


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy

a snake in the wild wouldn't be picky about it's next meal, it would just go and kill it, so why the hell do you need the mice to be just perfect before you cull them?

Unfortunately, we live in a society where killing animals is normal, i'm a big believer, that if it's humanely killed, then fine. but i don't agree on killing animals that are 'runts' or not deemed good enough.

There is also evidence that mice as well as other rodents get stressed or depressed when they loose their young, so when people kill pinkies for reptile food, how do you know that the mum isn't feeling the pain and grief.

Rodents in general are far more intelligent than people will realise.

Le Loup- i'm sorry, i know how hard this for you to read when your a vegan. I hope this topic hasn't upset you too much *hugs*


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy

> Live feeding is horrible and illegal over here.


i think you'll find that alot of reptile owners feed their snakes/lizards etc live mice, rats, rabbits, chinchillas, guinea pigs etc


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## u-look-like-a-hamster

Le Loup i totally agree with u on this!!

I MEAN CUMON!!!!

If u was expecting triplets would you 'cull'

two of them . and then pass it on to a lion tamer for the lion to

eat 

SAME PRICIBLE!!


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## Mischievous_Mark

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> i think you'll find that alot of reptile owners feed their snakes/lizards etc live mice, rats, rabbits, chinchillas, guinea pigs etc


Well they should be reported and they are only putting there animals at risk feeding live.

As ive already said i cull to take out the males, yes it harsh but as ive already said its hard enough to find homes for females but males are far worse befor elong id end up with a shed full of male mice, I would rather the mice i cull be fed to a snake and not just thrown a way like rubbish this way they have a purpose.

As for cull you take them away over a period of a week to 10 days not all at once. Ive never culled anything over 10 days old.


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## u-look-like-a-hamster

MARK HOW DO YOU CULLTHEM??

i just wanna know 

why the hell breed em if u cant find homes anyway 

STICK WITH SOMTHING THAT WILL SELL or just keep em and DONT BREED!!


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## Guest

Mischievous_Mark said:


> as ive already said its hard enough to find homes for females but males are far worse


Can I ask you why you are breeding if it's that hard to find homes for the mice you breed??
Everyone was up in arms at the Rhodesian Ridgeback breeder on Pedigree Dogs Exposed, as she was culling any pup that was ridgeless.

How is this any different?! You're culling males and anything that doesn't look like you want it to. Mice are just as important as dogs. You can't just kill them because you're breeding more than there is a market for


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## Mischievous_Mark

If you have mice/want mice

Would you rather get one from a pet shop where you dont know its history, Will have health problems, In-bred, Not that socailable and very small sickly looking or from a breeder with healthy mice, which is planned breeding, the history is know and they are very healthy.

Like i have already said the males i culled are used as food so they have a purpose, as for markings i really dont care what comes out aslong as they are health.

as for how i cull them i refuse to say as it will only be seen as cruel when it isnt really and is over within a matter of seconds. do some research and youll find the methods then you can judge yourself how humane they are.

I am not a freeder breeder nor do i produce mass litters and the moment i have been sticking to just one litter every couple of month, this is the only time i have 2 does pregnant.

As for Ridgebacks they are killing the healthy ridgeless ones for the unhealthy ridges


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## Guest

You're killing potentially healthy male mice and leaving females that you assume to be healthy but that still might not be?

Also yeah, I prefer to buy from a hobby breeder like yourself, but preferably one that gives all the babies an equal chance to survive. Most people that go out to buy mice would just go to a pet shop I think.

I never suggested you were mass breeding, however you yourself voiced that it is hard to sell them... which leaves me confused as to why you're breeding.

I bred one litter of hamsters a few years ago, realised it was very hard to get people interested when there are so many in pet shops, and didn't breed any more after that. 
My hamster had a large litter and NATURE culled 2 of the babies and Mummy hammy coped just fine with the remaining ones.


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## Guest

As a side note, it's been a few years since I owned any mice, but I had 4 girls, and they STANK! Do boys seriously smell worse than this?! All my hamsters have smelt just as bad as eachother too..

Is, what I can only imagine to be a minor smell improvement if anything, really worth killing off the males for? Also I always find my male rodents to be friendlier than my females.. what are your thoughts on this?

Next time I talk my OH into some small furry creature (he knows it's coming some day lol) I'll almost certainly get a male...


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## Mischievous_Mark

All the mice i have are very friendly both male and female i currently have 8 male mice they really do smell as they just scent mark everything, i have a group of 4 brothers and they smell worse than the group of 6 females i have.

My female rats are way more friendly than my boy rats.

The males are used as food which i keep saying so they do serve a purpose, i do cull females that look unhealthy, If you have healthy parents which you knwo the background of your more than likely to get healthy offspring.


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## Guest

Would you be happy if you'd been born into this "purpose"?  And if your friends didn't have reptiles to give the babies to, you'd still be culling them, right?

Anyway, I'll stop picking on you, thanks for explaining things  Still don't agree with it, but, there ya go lol. Can't please everybody eh?


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## Mischievous_Mark

I can honestly say that i wouldnt cull them if they didnt go for snake food, whether people believe that or not its upto them its not going to affect me in anyway.

I dont think of you as picking on me, i dont mind people asking questions its when they become too heated thats when the trouble starts.


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## Guest

Glad I haven't offended  You wouldn't believe that in person I'm the quietest meekest person ever... this forum has made me confrontational  lol. Keep getting myself into trouble with my opinions 

Got any pics of your mice?


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## Mischievous_Mark

HelloKittyHannah said:


> Glad I haven't offended  You wouldn't believe that in person I'm the quietest meekest person ever... this forum has made me confrontational  lol. Keep getting myself into trouble with my opinions
> 
> Got any pics of your mice?


Its okay im sure ill end up with a bit of a bad rep on this forum anyway, doesnt really matter tho i have an opinion much like everyone else.

and im not that easily offended


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## Purrrrfect

Some owners also breed mice purely for snake food. Surely there is an alternative to killing these baby mice or even buying frozen. Such as if you have a terrapin like i did many years ago i could buy freeze dried granulated fabricated food for it. rather than a live/culled version.  I used to have a barn owl and hated feeding her young mass culled day old chicks.


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## Fade to Grey

if i had twelve kids i'd definatly kill a few off, i mean think of the cost to feed them.


I can see where you're coming from but there's a natural order to things, everything kills something to survive, be it fruit and veg or meat. its all the same. lions kill to survive cavemen killed to survive humans eat cows. trees scream when you chop them down, apparently so what about them?


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## Fade to Grey

Purrrrfect said:


> Some owners also breed mice purely for snake food. Surely there is an alternative to killing these baby mice or even buying frozen. Such as if you have a terrapin like i did many years ago i could buy freeze dried granulated fabricated food for it. rather than a live/culled version.  I used to have a barn owl and hated feeding her young mass culled day old chicks.


you can't feed snakes soy.


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## Mischievous_Mark

Snakes eat mice, People arent just going to stop keeping snakes because they eat mice.


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## Fade to Grey

i hate feeding them mice but it has to be done, and i love keeping snakes, they're beautiful creatures


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## Guest

if you had 12 kids and couldn't afford em you'd stick em up for adoption or foster care realisticly.

If you cant afford them - don't breed. simple as.


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## Mischievous_Mark

SazzyB said:


> if you had 12 kids and couldn't afford em you'd stick em up for adoption or foster care realisticly.
> 
> If you cant afford them - don't breed. simple as.


I can afford them  nothing was said about not being able to afford them.


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## Guest

Mischievous_Mark said:


> T Im even putting my own education at risk here as i have no money to go to college thursday and friday just so my mice and rats can get the best diet for them.


nothing was said not affording them? your risking education over mice and rats and you kill the babies?!


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## Mischievous_Mark

SazzyB said:


> nothing was said not affording them? your risking education over mice and rats and you kill the babies?!


I spend the wage i get from working on my mice, I should be getting EMA for college this is what i mean.

Still didnt say i couldnt afford to keep and breed the mice if i couldnt afford them i wouldnt breed them i spent 2 years researching and getting myself ready to be able to breed mice some for show some as hobby admittedly i havent shown anything yet as i dont have time at the moment to show or the money to travel, I dont "kill" all the babies i sell them as pets and give the ones ived "killed" to friends snakes and lizards ect.


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## Guest

but your not. and your still risking education over mice and rats that you cull....


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## Guest

I don't care for snakes, don't know anything about them either but if I did have one I would feed it what it needed to be fed, even if that was a mouse.

Fadie - have you heard of any Dalmations being culled for not having the right markings recently? 

Le Loup - not everyone is Vegan on here and I for one find your posts very rude and your signature is annoying , you're entitled to your opinion as everyone is but do you really have to force feed it to everyone?

Mark - do you breed to show?


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## Mischievous_Mark

AJ said:


> I don't care for snakes, don't know anything about them either but if I did have one I would feed it what it needed to be fed, even if that was a mouse.
> 
> Fadie - have you heard of any Dalmations being culled for not having the right markings recently?
> 
> Le Loup - not everyone is Vegan on here and I for one find your posts very rude and your signature is annoying , you're entitled to your opinion as everyone is but do you really have to force feed it to everyone?
> 
> Mark - do you breed to show?


Yes i do have show line mice which i have bred but i havent had the time or the money to travel to show them yet, ive been to shows to check them out.

Sazzy i would be able to get to college if i got the EMA i am toposed to recieve for being at college.


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## Guest

I know what EMA is


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## Mischievous_Mark

SazzyB said:


> I know what EMA is


Never said you didnt know


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## Guest

if i couldn't get to college cos my EMA hadn't come through - I'd use my wage....education seems to get me further than mice...


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## Mischievous_Mark

Its okay now i still dont have EMA but ive managed to get to college since posting that one


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## Sungold-Bengals

SazzyB said:


> if you had 12 kids and couldn't afford em you'd stick em up for adoption or foster care realisticly.


Would you ? I thought you (as in people) just claimed more benefit & got re housed into a bigger home.
When you watch tv about how families struggle - they never mention putting their children up for adoption or foster care. 

If Mark is risking his education by breeding & culling the occasional mouse then he will only have himself to blame, as I'm sure he knows.

Back to topic - some Mouse breeders cull the occasional male & sickly baby mice.

Its a shame but it happens.


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## Guest

Sungold-Bengals said:


> Would you ? I thought you (as in people) just claimed more benefit & got re housed into a bigger home.
> When you watch tv about how families struggle - they never mention putting their children up for adoption or foster care.


Yea I would  And I dont want kids full stop anyway and i think its sick that people have kids just to get more benefits.


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## Sungold-Bengals

SazzyB said:


> Yea I would  And I dont want kids full stop anyway and i think its sick that people have kids just to get more benefits.


I quite agree


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## Mischievous_Mark

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Its okay now i still dont have EMA but ive managed to get to college since posting that one


Just fort id point it out


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## Le Loup

wow this post has really taken off. If anyone doesn't like my signature then simply don't read it. 

Views from both sides. Yes people have an opinion but i just want to ask those who slander me constantly for my views and for trying to stop bad things like this.
If you saw somebody kicking a puppy in the street would you keep quiet and not say anyting? or would you try to rescue that puppy? 

Now i know your all gunna say it's completly different but to me it isn't. An animal is an animal, it's a living, sentient being and no animal deserves to be killed because we think fit.

Humans do not need to cull... if the litter is too big then the young will die, it's up to the mother animal not the human. How can we possibly know how many babies a mother can handle?


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## Guest

Le Loup said:


> Now i know your all gunna say it's completly different but to me it isn't. An animal is an animal, it's a living, sentient being and no animal deserves to be killed because we think fit.


What pets have you got Le Loup? Do you feed them a vegan diet too?


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## ringses

Mese said:


> One thing that interests me Le Loup and I mean no disrespect , its just a question thats occured to me
> 
> You have dogs dont you ?
> do you feed them meat or deny them their natural diet because of your own beliefs ?


Has Le Loup answered this question?


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## vet-2-b

i think i would have to agree about the cow thing and children 

i agree with the they dont look pretty anuff if you were a true animal lover you would love animals but im a bit unsure snakes have to feed but ... killing one type because its not bigger anuff or its a boy does seem to be wrong not sure 

p.s sorry about the spelling im dislexic


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy

ringses said:


> Has Le Loup answered this question?


there is a vegitarian option for dogs and cats which contains a taurine subsitute which is exactly the same as normal dog/cat food, except no animals have been killed for it.

I don't have anything against Le Loups signature, it's very true and the idea is to shock people into understanding. I eat dairy products yes but it's all free range.

Instead of people pushing le loup into a corner and thinking the worst because of being a vegan, look at yourselves for once! Most of you would never be able cope without dairy/meat, i think le loup is doing a very positive thing.

Also, humans don't need meat anymore, we have other ways of obtaining vitamins and minerals for cell growth and repair.

And humans have no right to play god and kill animals who we deem to be not good enough. 
I know of a mouse breeder who does not cull any of his young, that is breeder i'd go to if i wanted mice.


----------



## vet-2-b

im only young but i think this my open some eyes to younger people how to deal with diffrent thoughts (also might help some adults) it will show them every thing isnt sweet which one day they will haveto under stand when its getts personal thats when it goes to far


----------



## JANICE199

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> there is a vegitarian option for dogs and cats which contains a taurine subsitute which is exactly the same as normal dog/cat food, except no animals have been killed for it.
> 
> I don't have anything against Le Loups signature, it's very true and the idea is to shock people into understanding. I eat dairy products yes but it's all free range.
> 
> Instead of people pushing le loup into a corner and thinking the worst because of being a vegan, look at yourselves for once! Most of you would never be able cope without dairy/meat, i think le loup is doing a very positive thing.
> 
> Also, humans don't need meat anymore, we have other ways of obtaining vitamins and minerals for cell growth and repair.
> 
> And humans have no right to play god and kill animals who we deem to be not good enough.
> I know of a mouse breeder who does not cull any of his young, that is breeder i'd go to if i wanted mice.


humans may not NEED meat but some of us enjoy it..as you brought god into this, your bible says its fine to eat meat..i agree if you dont want to eat then dont..but its not right to put others down that do like it.


----------



## Mese

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> there is a vegitarian option for dogs and cats which contains a taurine subsitute which is exactly the same as normal dog/cat food, except no animals have been killed for it.
> 
> Also, humans don't need meat anymore, we have other ways of obtaining vitamins and minerals for cell growth and repair.


But its not natural 
a dog is a carnivore therefore meat should be given , not a meat substitute because of the owners beliefs ... in my mind thats depriving the animal of a basic right and making them conform to what you desire ... its *against* nature

As for being able to use vitamins etc in place of meat ... thats not natural either
Id much prefer to chomp down on a nice healthy steak and get all the good stuff I need that way than pop a pill thats been artificially made from gawd knows what
next thing you know we'll have all the vegetable rights people telling us we cant eat a carrot cos it screams when its picked


----------



## Guest

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> there is a vegitarian option for dogs and cats which contains a taurine subsitute which is exactly the same as normal dog/cat food, except no animals have been killed for it.


I disagree, the most important ingredient of dog and cat food is meat, without meat it is not appropriate. It is not at all fair to feed a carnivore a substitute, they need to eat meat. If you aren't prepared to feed a cat or dog meat you shouldn't own one in my opinion.


----------



## ChrisTheGerbilGuy

i think you'll find that it's the taurine found within dog food that's the important bit (which is in meat subsitutes )

and as for my bible? i don't believe in god, never have.


----------



## vet-2-b

i agree a dog is a meat eater it needs meat if you dont whant to eat meat fair anuff but for a dog that is not a fair choice

THEY NEED MEAT

that is a cruel as staving a dog


----------



## Le Loup

OK The dog food issue has nothing to do with mouse culling but as your all talking about it i totally disagree that the dogs NEED this meat.

Your calling it "meat" ever read the ingredients? It says "animal derivatives" now you think thats meat? no it's not its the guts, horns, teeth, and the bits of the animal which isn't "fit for human consumption" Is that natural? Is that nutritious? No it isn't. A dog would never CHOOSE to eat the teeth of an animal or the horns of an animal.

Also there has been thousands and thousands of cases of poisoning in dogs that eat dog food.

I have examples:

"COLUMBIA, S.C. - The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reports that at least 76 dogs nationwide are believed to have died as a result of eating contaminated Diamond Pet Foods."
Toxic pet food kills dozens of dogs - Pet health - MSNBC.com /

"ALBANY, N.Y. - Pet owners were rechecking their cabinets and threatening legal action after state officials said rat poison was found in pet food blamed for the deaths of at least 16 cats and dogs."
Experts: More pet food deaths are likely - Pet health - MSNBC.com

This is what your dogs are eating.. but you can throw a few "retired" race horses and unwanted riding ponies in there as well. Although in the U.K it may be illegal to use dead dogs and cats in dog food who says they can't import dog food that comes from places which do use dead dogs and cats?

"When cattle, chickens, lambs, swine, and other animals are slaughtered for food, its common that just the lean muscle is cut and used for human consumption. The left over carcass is then sent to a rendering plant, along with all the other waste that is around. This foul mess is rendered and will soon become bad dog food. What this amounts to is an appalling mixture of chicken feet, dead animals, euthanized dogs and cats, lungs, ligaments, beaks, teeth, intestines, and more. This bad dog food is cleaned up with the all-encompassing label of meat-and-bone meal and by-products on the outside of the bag"
Bad Dog Food:

On top of this alot of the "big names" such as "pedigree" and the worst "Iams" actually test on animals. They feed dogs or cats the food they want to put on the market for a length of time then kill the animals, cut them open and see what happened inside them. Do you really want to be promoting this?

"in 2003 IAMS/Eukanuba were exposed again - dogs kept in shocking condition had been force-fed vegetable oil, had chunks of muscle removed from their thighs, and been 'de-barked' by having their voice-boxes cut out in a painful and bloody procedure. The damning evidence confirmed IAMS' 'research policy' to be nothing more than a sham."
IAMS and animal testing

I'm not lying, the evidence is there.

To ChrisTheGerbilGuy thankyou. It is very ironic that they are complaining about my signature when they are discussing the murder of animals so freely and saying thats ok. I could put on very graphic pictures, or disgusting facts about milk but i don't. The idea of my signature is to show you what your drinking. Not just a liquid, but breast milk from a cow, a calves food. If my picture disgusts you then don't drink milk.


----------



## ColeosMummy

I could never kill baby mice is i had mice and they had babies x


----------



## Mese

You are assuming everyone feeds their dogs tinned meat ... My dog is fed raw meat and bones fresh from the butcher every day 

Argue your case for feeding your dogs to follow YOUR beliefs all you like, but its going against their nature not to allow your dogs meat , I bet they'd love it and if they could speak would choose raw meat over veg stuff anyday

If you dont believe me put down some raw meat and and watch them go nuts for it


----------



## ChrisTheGerbilGuy

yes, dogs do need meat but raw meat can be dangerous. Here's why...

There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.

I agree that raw meat is better to give than tinned meat. at least you know then that it's fit for human consumption, so no crap.

I feed my cats meat, i won't deny them it because of the way i feel.

Anyway, this has gone completely off topic.


----------



## Mese

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> yes, dogs do need meat but raw meat can be dangerous. Here's why...
> 
> There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.


what a load of ... well im too much a lady to say what I think of that statement on a public forum ... but geez


----------



## Le Loup

That is enough of everything. Can't you stick to mouse culling? people ran out of excuses or something?


----------



## tashi

closing this one for moderating will be re instated shortly


----------



## tashi

now re-instated but please keep on topic and no flaming 

thanks


----------



## carol

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> yes, dogs do need meat but raw meat can be dangerous. Here's why...
> 
> There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.
> 
> I agree that raw meat is better to give than tinned meat. at least you know then that it's fit for human consumption, so no crap.
> 
> I feed my cats meat, i won't deny them it because of the way i feel.
> 
> Anyway, this has gone completely off topic.


sorry but thats is a load of rubbish that dog who eat raw meat are going to attack.
my old boy used to have raw from a pup and he never attacked or did any of my others, as well as friends dogs who have been on raw for over 30 years.


----------



## Guest

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> i think you'll find that it's the taurine found within dog food that's the important bit (which is in meat subsitutes )


I think you are confusing dogs with cats regards taurine. Raw meat provides more than just taurine. A substitute does not provide the same nutrients in the same form as the real thing. Cat's by definition are obligate carnivores which means they must eat meat to thrive. 



ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> yes, dogs do need meat but raw meat can be dangerous. Here's why...
> 
> There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.


Have you got anything to back that statement up? 



Le Loup said:


> OK The dog food issue has nothing to do with mouse culling but as your all talking about it i totally disagree that the dogs NEED this meat..............


I get REAL MEAT and REAL BONES from the BUTCHERS for my dogs so that is completely irrelevant. Everyone knows how crap commercial foods are, everyone knows about IAMS testing, you're not telling us anything we don't know. 



Le Loup said:


> That is enough of everything. Can't you stick to mouse culling? people ran out of excuses or something?


I don't need to give you excuses because I don't cull mice but I'm not sure why you think anyone needs to justify themselves to you!?!


----------



## vet-2-b

about the dog thing well alest its not going to waste that animals has died and its been wasted im not saying its right but its better then it going to waste


----------



## vet-2-b

sorry le loup just read the rest of your letter i didnt relise what they use in it


----------



## Fade to Grey

AJ said:


> Fadie - have you heard of any Dalmations being culled for not having the right markings recently?


no i haven't but it wouldn't suprise me.but it would be worse it takes 2/3 weeks before you see the spots.


----------



## Fade to Grey

SazzyB said:


> if you had 12 kids and couldn't afford em you'd stick em up for adoption or foster care realisticly.
> 
> If you cant afford them - don't breed. simple as.


obviously you don'tknow a joke when you see one.
idontintend to havekids fullstop


----------



## Fade to Grey

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.


i'm sorry but where did you get that fact from? i think its a load of %(£*$&$ to be honest.


----------



## Lambchop

hmmm, back to mouse culling...... if they are being culled to feed another animal and the killing is humane as possible then its fine cos snakes have to eat meat, le Loup, pretty sure they dont do mouse flavoured quorn!


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

Please this has gone on long enough lets stick to the topic " Mouse Culling" im sure this thread was not posted to start throwing insults at each other.


----------



## vet-2-b

Lambchop said:


> hmmm, back to mouse culling...... if they are being culled to feed another animal and the killing is humane as possible then its fine cos snakes have to eat meat, le Loup, pretty sure they dont do mouse flavoured quorn!


i dont no about culling i mean snakes have to fed but i can see the point of le loup

i thought when le loup put if it was left to natuar and they would week then they would die so why should we judge i can tottaly see where your coming from


----------



## emmar

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Please this has gone on long enough lets stick to the topic " Mouse Culling" im sure this thread was not posted to start throwing insults at each other.


gotta agree there


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

vet-2-b said:


> i dont no about culling i mean snakes have to fed but i can see the point of le loup
> 
> i thought when le loup put if it was left to natuar and they would week then they would die so why should we judge i can tottaly see where your coming from


Okay,
If they were left to died naturally they may become too big for baby snakes to eat, leading to them going hungry then dieing. 
If the mother was left to decided on the culling youd end up with no babies they eat the whole body to keep away predators or you could end up witha lot of half eaten babies which would be full of bacteria and then you wouldnt be able to feed them to a snake again youll get a hungry snake which would die.


----------



## JANICE199

ok i know nothing about mice.but from what ive read on this thread,i can't see whats wrong if mice are culled to feed another animal..just my oppion.


----------



## vet-2-b

no i mean when people kill them because they "dont have the look"


its very diffcult 
imean 

lu loup i can c were you are coming from

and mark you to 

all animals are buitiful whether its "the look or not"


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

vet-2-b said:


> no i mean when people kill them because they "dont have the look"
> 
> its very diffcult
> imean
> 
> lu loup i can c were you are coming from
> 
> and mark you to
> 
> all animals are buitiful whether its "the look or not"


I breed mice i dont cull for colour tho, it really doesnt matter of what colour they are. I can see where you are coming from tho some breeders so cull for colour which i think isnt right.


----------



## Lambchop

By the way Mark, I think its very sensible that when you cull you choose to cull the males. That way you are enuring the surviving mice have more chance of getting and keeping a good home. 

Also, with all this talk of things being natural, its really not natural for people to keep pets in cages at all. I mean I dont see how people can argue that farming and culling is playing god when they think it is ok to keep another animal entrapped for their own pleasure! (This is not my opinion btw, I'm just throwing in another way of looking at it).


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

Lambchop said:


> By the way Mark, I think its very sensible that when you cull you choose to cull the males. That way you are enuring the surviving mice have more chance of getting and keeping a good home.
> 
> Also, with all this talk of things being natural, its really not natural for people to keep pets in cages at all. I mean I dont see how people can argue that farming and culling is playing god when they think it is ok to keep another animal entrapped for their own pleasure! (This is not my opinion btw, I'm just throwing in another way of looking at it).


True true, thats a whole different debate should animals be kept in cages, with or without free running time is it still seen as wrong.


----------



## cmullins

quote:

There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.

lmao!!!
where did you hear that from???
the closest thing iv heard to that is in rabbits lol


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

cmullins said:


> quote:
> 
> There have been cases across the USA and UK of dogs being fed raw meat and then attacking and killing their owners. Why? because they had the taste of blood.
> 
> lmao!!!
> where did you hear that from???
> the closest thing iv heard to that is in rabbits lol


Ive never heard anything like it ever not even in college :S


----------



## Roborovski

It's lunacy in this day and age to bring up the idea of not letting all the animals run free. Thats fine in certain parts of the world, but if we were to let cows and the sort run round - they'll just end up on the road and die, along with the driver of the poor sod who hit it. In effect we are infact acting as conservationists. 

And this thread has become a place for "self justification".


----------



## Le Loup

Right ok let me get one thing straight. I opened this thread to express the horror that people culled mice to get fat, nice looking mice and because male mice aren't "worth" having in their eyes. I did not mention that i was horrified at mice being killed soley to feed snakes, although i don't agree with it.

I was talking about people who breed mice for pets, people culling them for no reason other than they don't think they deserve to live. 

Which, Mark, is what your doing, weather or not you give them away to your friends snakes or not has nothing to do with it. You don't cull them FOR the snakes you cull them because you don't think they deserve to live. It's as simple as that. 

Stop going off track onto dog food and other things, stop talking about snakes and their food, that has nothing to do with what i'm horrified at. I know people kill mice for snakes.. how else would snakes eat but i don't agree with it. Don't ask me "well, how will snakes eat then?" i don't care, this thread isn't about that. If you want to discuss snake food then open a different thread in the reptile section. If you want to talk about dog food then talk about that in the dog section. This is about MICE!


----------



## Guest

I don't know much at all about mice and snakes but I can't really see anything wrong in snakes being given mice that have been bred and culled. I can't understand why people cannot accept that this is what nature is about - certain animals (human beings included) are carnivores and are designed to eat and digest meat. Choosing not to eat meat is a personal moral decision based on emotion rather than scientific principles. For us to impose our morals upon an animal's natural diet is actually immoral, in my opinion.

However, I must take issue with arguments re dalmations and ridgebacks that have been put forward to support culling. Despite what a recent travesty of a program reported, dalmations are not culled because they have no spots, and ridgebacks are not culled if they don't have a ridge.

Le Loup, you are as entitled to your beliefs as any person on this forum. But when you post threads attacking other people's beliefs, you have to accept that people will post back attacking yours.


----------



## tashi

Le Loup said:


> Right ok let me get one thing straight. I opened this thread to express the horror that people culled mice to get fat, nice looking mice and because male mice aren't "worth" having in their eyes. I did not mention that i was horrified at mice being killed soley to feed snakes, although i don't agree with it.
> 
> I was talking about people who breed mice for pets, people culling them for no reason other than they don't think they deserve to live.
> 
> Which, Mark, is what your doing, weather or not you give them away to your friends snakes or not has nothing to do with it. You don't cull them FOR the snakes you cull them because you don't think they deserve to live. It's as simple as that.
> 
> Stop going off track onto dog food and other things, stop talking about snakes and their food, that has nothing to do with what i'm horrified at. I know people kill mice for snakes.. how else would snakes eat but i don't agree with it. Don't ask me "well, how will snakes eat then?" i don't care, this thread isn't about that. If you want to discuss snake food then open a different thread in the reptile section. If you want to talk about dog food then talk about that in the dog section. This is about MICE!


I am sorry but it is all relevant Mark has told you the reason that he culls his mice, and I do know of rat breeders that cull as well, we all know of your beliefs and respect what you say, do, how you eat etc., but when you put a thread like this on a forum you would expect the replies that you have had, which is simply people telling you why they cull them!!


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

Le Loup said:


> Right ok let me get one thing straight. I opened this thread to express the horror that people culled mice to get fat, nice looking mice and because male mice aren't "worth" having in their eyes. I did not mention that i was horrified at mice being killed soley to feed snakes, although i don't agree with it.
> 
> I was talking about people who breed mice for pets, people culling them for no reason other than they don't think they deserve to live.
> 
> Which, Mark, is what your doing, weather or not you give them away to your friends snakes or not has nothing to do with it. You don't cull them FOR the snakes you cull them because you don't think they deserve to live. It's as simple as that.


How rude are you to be telling me how i see my mice, i think the world of my mice if i didnt why would i be spending upto £150 a month to care for them, If i had a scanner id get my vet receit up to show you how much i dont care! my mice are treated from fleas,mites and ticks monthly,fed on the best diet ( they also eat meat aswel as a treat, so are my rats ) If i didnt cull for the snakes i would have no reason to cull therefore i wouldnt do it. Every living thing deserve to live but in order to live some need to eat other animals "simple as that" !


----------



## StolenkissGerbils

spellweaver said:


> I don't know much at all about mice and snakes but I can't really see anything wrong in snakes being given mice that have been bred and culled. I can't understand why people cannot accept that this is what nature is about - certain animals (human beings included) are carnivores and are designed to eat and digest meat. Choosing not to eat meat is a personal moral decision based on emotion rather than scientific principles. For us to impose our morals upon an animal's natural diet is actually immoral, in my opinion.
> 
> However, I must take issue with arguments re dalmations and ridgebacks that have been put forward to support culling. Despite what a recent travesty of a program reported, dalmations are not culled because they have no spots, and ridgebacks are not culled if they don't have a ridge.
> 
> Le Loup, you are as entitled to your beliefs as any person on this forum. But when you post threads attacking other people's beliefs, you have to accept that people will post back attacking yours.


AMEN! This is the most sense I have read on this entire *bleeping* thread.


----------



## Roborovski

"dalmations are not culled because they have no spots, and ridgebacks are not culled if they don't have a ridge"

This is a very, very ignorant view. Just like to point out.


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

Roborovski said:


> "dalmations are not culled because they have no spots, and ridgebacks are not culled if they don't have a ridge"
> 
> This is a very, very ignorant view. Just like to point out.


I would just like to say that there is a chance that there are some breeders that do cull their litters with or without people knowing.


----------



## Guest

Roborovski said:


> "dalmations are not culled because they have no spots, and ridgebacks are not culled if they don't have a ridge"
> 
> This is a very, very ignorant view. Just like to point out.


No, this is a very, very accurate, factual view. Just like to point out.


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

spellweaver said:


> No, this is a very, very accurate, factual view. Just like to point out.


You will never know this tho yes breeders can say they dont cull but are they just telling you what they want you to hear. Are you there to see how many puppies a bitch will actually have ?


----------



## StolenkissGerbils

I think the breeders who do cull these dogs that don't meet the standard are getting much fewer now because "why cull a pup you can sell for three-quarters the usual price?" Isn't that the general view? I know that white Boxers are rarely ever culled anymore (I'm somewhat involved in Boxers as I hope to own one someday). Most people just aren't comfortable with culling based purely on colour in Boxers anymore.


----------



## Mischievous_Mark

StolenkissGerbils said:


> I think the breeders who do cull these dogs that don't meet the standard are getting much fewer now because "why cull a pup you can sell for three-quarters the usual price?" Isn't that the general view? I know that white Boxers are rarely ever culled anymore (I'm somewhat involved in Boxers as I hope to own one someday). Most people just aren't comfortable with culling based purely on colour in Boxers anymore.


Yep there maybe fewer breeders who cull down but there will still be the ones who do continue to do this.

Again this subject is off topic.


----------



## Guest

Mischievous_Mark said:


> You will never know this tho yes breeders can say they dont cull but are they just telling you what they want you to hear. Are you there to see how many puppies a bitch will actually have ?


Ok I can sort of accept your point because obviously I don't know every single breeder of every single dalmation and ridgeback. However, I do know enough to know that * if *it does happen at all, it is extremely rare and the breeder would be ostracised by the breed clubs and the whole dog showing community. I'd love to discuss this further but we are at risk of hijacking the thread.


----------



## cmullins

lol, its life


----------



## tj1980

i think theres right and wrong on both sides, but ive learnt loads from this thread, its great that everyone can have an adult debate. its a shame that a few people have 2 get a bit irrate but hey its a touchy topic


----------



## Le Loup

ok clearly you've all totally missed what i said. I didn't start this post to start an argument. i started it to tell people how horrified i was that people killed mice. NOT FOR SNAKE FOOD!!!!!!!!!! but for the way they look. 

I've been critisized for being vegan on here. I'm sick of it. I haven't once critisized anyone on here for eating meat. 

I haven't said anything personal about anybody on here but a select few have said personal things to me.

I'm sick of being targeted, i haven't insulted anyone but people sure have insulted me, yes not everyone, people have stuck up for me, but when people are patronizing me and insulting me then thats going to far. 

I've said more than enough times that this post is about mice, not snake food, not dog food and not people who kill mice to feed snakes. The moderator has told you to keep on topic so keep on topic. 

The few individuals who can't accept me for being vegan spoil this forum alot. 

I feel i have been treat unfairly indeed. I didn't want a debate. In fact im shocked that people even agree to this. Fair enough, i can see people agreeing with snake food. But not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about mouse breeders who kill the males coz they can't sell them and the small mice coz they aren't big enough. 

I don't want an argument. I was informing people that some mouse breeders kill the babies as i thought people might want to know. The last thing i wanted was for somebody like who agree's with murdering animals to post on here. If it was a post AGAINST mouse culling then why start an argument? 

I don't want to hear you trying to justify yourselves. You cant. Full Stop. 
It's not an opinion, it's an animals life. No you do not have the right to take an animals life. You have about as much right to do that as to take a childs life. 

Stop going off topic. If you want to post about dogs post in the dog section. 

For the last time, i'm not talking about snake food i'm talking about PET MICE.


----------



## Guest

Le Loup said:


> I've been critisized for being vegan on here. I'm sick of it. I haven't once critisized anyone on here for eating meat.
> 
> I haven't said anything personal about anybody on here but a select few have said personal things to me.


Oh no your signature isn't critical of meat eaters at all is it? 



Le Loup said:


> I feel i have been treat unfairly indeed. I didn't want a debate. In fact im shocked that people even agree to this.


This is a forum if you don't want a debate you're in the wrong place! It would be a very boring place if everyone agreed on everything all the time.


----------



## JANICE199

Le Loup said:


> I think its very cruel to rear animals and then kill them for food. Snakes and reptiles is a touchy situation because yes snakes have to eat. In an ideal world if you have to kll an animal to feed an your pet you shouldn't have it as a pet. But obviously you will dissagree with that because you like snakes.
> 
> Being vegan i don't believe in raising animals for food...for ANY species.
> 
> And i certainly don't agree with people breeding mice and murdering the young and telling people its because snakes need to eat. the next step is feeding the snakes live mice!


just my oppion....but in this post you yourself went off topic...because you said you think its cruel to rear animals and kill them for food..perhaps thats why people are not sticking to just mice.


----------



## Mese

i havent seen anyone critisize you for being vegan , if thats a choice of lifestyle you enjoy then fine, you are happy and I have no problem with it. 
I choose to eat meat as I feel humans , as Omnivores , were designed to eat fruit, veg and meat for a balanced diet , thats my lifestyle choice, yet your sig is damning my choice 
not quite fair that is it 
can I claim now to be victimised on here?

I do however have a problem with you pushing YOUR lifestyle choice on two defenceless dogs who given half a chance would wolf down a good healthy meal of fresh meat 
that is their natural diet , you are denying them their basic animal rights ... for an animal rights enthusiast thats nothing but hypocracy

IMO if vegetarians and vegans dont want their animals eating meat then they shouldnt buy and keep the type of animal that prefers meat as its food


----------



## Guest

Le Loup said:


> ok clearly you've all totally missed what i said. I didn't start this post to start an argument. i started it to tell people how horrified i was that people killed mice. ............... I feel i have been treat unfairly indeed. I didn't want a debate. ...............I don't want an argument. ................The last thing i wanted was for somebody like who agree's with murdering animals to post on here


This is an open forum. You cannot dictate to people what they can and can't write. You post something and people respond to your post, and then you reply to their response and so on and so forth.



Le Loup said:


> I've said more than enough times that this post is about mice, not snake food, not dog food and not people who kill mice to feed snakes. The moderator has told you to keep on topic so keep on topic.


And the mod has also explained to you that the replies about which you are complaining are all valid replies to your posts.



Le Loup said:


> The few individuals who can't accept me for being vegan spoil this forum alot.


I've not seen anyone on here criticise you for being vegan - although I have seen you complain that they do several times. You remind me of the "only gay in the village" character on Little Britain who so desperately wants people to be against him for being gay


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## Mischievous_Mark

I for one have never said anything about you being vegan, i have never once insulted you.

You have insulted me by saying i dont care about my mice and i just kill them for the fun of it basically.

So dont go throwing false facts ou tthere just justify yourself.

What are you the only one allowed to have an opinion and if people dont agree (as the saying goes) "spit your dummy out"


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## u-look-like-a-hamster

AJ said:


> Oh no your signature isn't critical of meat eaters at all is it?


And yours isnt to Vegans!!!

IM VEGAN TOOOO TARGET ME INSTEAD !!!!!

Le loup is a good person

THIS HAS GOT OUT OF HAND.

Every one has thier own oppinion!!!!!!!!!!

STOPPPPPPP FIGHTING!!!!! Its silly and immature , especially through the computer,

LOL i might have to throw my keybord at each and everyone of you!!


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## Lambchop

This is a healthy debate and is exactly what these forums are all about: everyone getting their opinions across. I think its fun!!


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## Mischievous_Mark

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> And yours isnt to Vegans!!!
> 
> IM VEGAN TOOOO TARGET ME INSTEAD !!!!!
> 
> Le loup is a good person
> 
> THIS HAS GOT OUT OF HAND.
> 
> Every one has thier own oppinion!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> STOPPPPPPP FIGHTING!!!!! Its silly and immature , especially through the computer,
> 
> LOL i might have to throw my keybord at each and everyone of you!!


Agreed with the sigs, Is anyone attacking Le Loup about being a Vegan or that they just putting a point across.

Also why type in CAPITALS and have pointless exclamation marks !!!!!!!!!! its very immature and annoying.


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## Mese

I believe AJ just took offence at Le Loups sig , as I have if im honest , and being told by Le Loup not to look at it if you dont like it is next to useless and just disrespectful to the members who have told her its offensive to them ... if you read her comments you see her sig , theres no choice 

maybe she should tone it down a bit , at least take the cow part of it out as thats the part that offends me the most and I have seen one other post where she was told it was offensive


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## Guest

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> And yours isnt to Vegans!!!
> 
> IM VEGAN TOOOO TARGET ME INSTEAD !!!!!


Well if Le Loup's isn't then mine isn't, end of.

There are plenty of vegan's and vegetarian's on this forum who don't feel the need to put critical signatures and avatars up, so why does Le Loup? I think Val hit the nail on the head with the "only gay in the village" reference. Nobody has made a big deal about vegan's apart from........ Le Loup!! I have nothing against vegans and I've never said anything that suggests I have but if Le Loup wants to keep their signatures, that a lot of people find critical of their lifestyle, then I think I'll keep mine too. 



Mese said:


> I believe AJ just took offence at Le Loups sig , as I have if im honest , and being told by Le Loup not to look at it if you dont like it is next to useless and just disrespectful to the members who have told her its offensive to them ... if you read her comments you see her sig , theres no choice
> 
> maybe she should tone it down a bit , at least take the cow part of it out as thats the part that offends me the most


Totally agree, it's actually Le Loup's previous avatar that I find most offensive, which suggests that if you're not vegan then you don't love animals. 

Anyway Le Loup if you feel like answering any of the posts that are relevant to the topic feel free but I won't hold my breathe.


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## JANICE199

Mese said:


> I believe AJ just took offence at Le Loups sig , as I have if im honest , and being told by Le Loup not to look at it if you dont like it is next to useless and just disrespectful to the members who have told her its offensive to them ... if you read her comments you see her sig , theres no choice
> 
> maybe she should tone it down a bit , at least take the cow part of it out as thats the part that offends me the most and I have seen one other post where she was told it was offensive


lol let it go over your head. i love meat and make no excuses for eating it.
as for someones sig. whatever.i'm not botherd.they have teir oppions and i have mine...by the way i'm looking forward to my sunday roast.yummmy


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## Mischievous_Mark

JANICE199 said:


> lol let it go over your head. i love meat and make no excuses for eating it.
> as for someones sig. whatever.i'm not botherd.they have teir oppions and i have mine...by the way i'm looking forward to my sunday roast.yummmy


Off topic yes but im looking forward to mine aswel, its the only time i really eat red meat , I dont eat a lot of Iron so im always pale, however i do eat a lot of chiciken and fish.

anyway back to the topic
I have some pregnant mice that are going to pop any time within the next few days am i allowed to cull the litter to feed a snake or do i have to let the snake starve? just thought i check


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## Guest

Mischievous_Mark said:


> anyway back to the topic
> I have some pregnant mice that are going to pop any time within the next few days am i allowed to cull the litter to feed a snake or do i have to let the snake starve? just thought i check


lol - you feed the snake! Perhaps you ought to have a poll about it .........


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## Mischievous_Mark

spellweaver said:


> lol - you feed the snake! Perhaps you ought to have a poll about it .........


Well i just thought id ask what to do with my own mice so i dont affend anyone.



O and heres a picture of a breeder that did an experiment sort of thing. Both mice are arround 10-15 days old one from a culled litter and one left alone. I have no idea of the sex of either mice and Woodland Mousery are not the people that did it, Its just a watermark to stop copyright.


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## Mese

I dont like a big sunday roast dinner , I still have to cook one for the family but usually dont bother having more than a bit of veg on a plate myself , ironic huh , lol

Mark - feed the snake , Id love to see a pic of it by the way , I adore snakes


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## Mischievous_Mark

Mese said:


> I dont like a big sunday roast dinner , I still have to cook one for the family but usually dont bother having more than a bit of veg on a plate myself , ironic huh , lol
> 
> Mark - feed the snake , Id love to see a pic of it by the way , I adore snakes


I wont see the snake eating as all i do is "kill" them because i dont care about them then just throw them into a bag slam them in the freezer and wait for my friend to come and collect them  well at least thats how its being portaid (not sure if thats the right word but i dont care lol ) on this thread 

O they will also be going to a bearded dragon aswel.

Once i get my baby corn ill post some pictures of him eating ( its a him because i want a him )

P.S im even that horrible to my mice ive brought them out of the shed ( which is very warm as its insulated ) into my bedroom so that i can keep an eye on them


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## Mese

noooo , I dont want to see them eating , I just want to see the snake ... and the bearded dragon if poss

and im sure no-one really believes you dont love your mice hun


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## Mischievous_Mark

Its intresting to see them eat the size of the mouse compared to there head. Its even more amazing to watch an egg eating snake eat.

I dont think ill be able to get a picture of the bearded dragon but ill see what i can do.


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## Mese

any old pic of any reptile will do , lol
as I said I adore reptiles, but my OH hates 'em with a passion


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## Mischievous_Mark

Im going to see if i can whip the beared dragon into shape anyway because apparntly its aggressive 

I dont mind aggressive animals there cute  but they do need taming i will will be the one to do it 

Im at work tomorrow back with the strange dogs so ill probly have a bite wound or two which i could post to show people 

Now i think we need to go back to topic even tho i dont think there any more to say on the matter becaus ei think everything has been said ive treid to educate people on the matter without being insultive


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## u-look-like-a-hamster

Mischievous_Mark said:


> Agreed with the sigs, Is anyone attacking Le Loup about being a Vegan or that they just putting a point across.
> 
> Also why type in CAPITALS and have pointless exclamation marks !!!!!!!!!! its very immature and annoying.


BEACUES I WAS ANNOYED AND WAS SHOUTING (at the comp screen)

DONT JUDGE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mischievous_Mark

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> BEACUES I WAS ANNOYED AND WAS SHOUTING (at the comp screen)
> 
> DONT JUDGE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you dont wan tto be judge dont judge others simple.

"DONT JUDGE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" i suppose this is the computer screen aswel , i dont see how a computer screen can affect anyones typing after all its the person controlling it.

Or you could try and not push this button 









Back to topic, Is this thread over and done with ? and agreed that everyone has an opinion and they shouldnt be judge,told its wrong or that they dont care about their animals ?


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## u-look-like-a-hamster

no im shouting NOT AT THE COMP AT YOU!/Other people 

when

somthing is in capitals it means ur SHOUTING!!!!!!!!!

Actually i press the SHIFT button!!!!


TUT ur such an arrogant butcloth


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## Selk67U2

*I'm closing this thread until it can be sorted by one of the MODS*


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## Vixie

this thread will be checked and sorted through tomorrow and then a decision will be made in regards to its suitability to be re-opened or not

thank you


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