# Wainwrights wet feeding guidelines. Trays Vs Pouches?



## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Out of interest I bought two pouches to go in the cupboard for the dogs and was surprised that their own feeding guide varies depending on the packaging the food is in?!

It seems much more feasible than the trays though.

Trays say:
Small Dog 5-12kg: ¼ to &#8531; Tray 
Medium Dog: 12-25kg: &#8531; to ¾ Tray
Large Dog 25-45kg: ¾ to 1 Tray
Giant 45-70kg; 1-2 Trays 

Pouches say:
Small Breeds (5-12kg): 4 Pouches;
Medium Breeds (12-25kg): 8 Pouches;
Large Breeds (25-45kg): 12 Pouches.

To be fair the pouches only seem to come in chicken and the trays more flavours, but I can't think the source of protein makes a vast amount of difference.

Just to clarify, trays weigh 395g, pouches 150g. For a giant dog (up to 70kg) the trays recommend 395-790g a day, the pouches (for dogs ONLY up to 45kg) recommend up to 1800g a day. Massive difference isn't it, I at least thought their own trays would be on par with their own pouches


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

A 12kg dog would starve on a third of a tray. Very odd as mostly you are encouraged to overfeed so they sell more. My 6kg dogs get dry food as well and share a tray a day. Without the dry food I imagine they would be on at least double the recommended rate for a dog twice its size and a 12kg dog would need about a tray and a half


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Blitz said:


> A 12kg dog would starve on a third of a tray. Very odd as mostly you are encouraged to overfeed so they sell more. My 6kg dogs get dry food as well and share a tray a day. Without the dry food I imagine they would be on at least double the recommended rate for a dog twice its size and a 12kg dog would need about a tray and a half


Henry is around 15.5kg and his RDA of wet food is 1.5 trays per day, when fed alone. The WW trays have "notoriously" low feeding guidelines on the forum - lots of people have mentioned it before.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Blitz said:


> A 12kg dog would starve on a third of a tray. Very odd as mostly you are encouraged to overfeed so they sell more. My 6kg dogs get dry food as well and share a tray a day. Without the dry food I imagine they would be on at least double the recommended rate for a dog twice its size and a 12kg dog would need about a tray and a half





henry said:


> Henry is around 15.5kg and his RDA of wet food is 1.5 trays per day, when fed alone. The WW trays have "notoriously" low feeding guidelines on the forum - lots of people have mentioned it before.


What I'm surprised at is how much more you are supposed to feed just because the food is in a pouch over a tray? That must mean one of them is just plain wrong and an error was made when the feeding guide was written...


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

The tins give Heidi's RDA as per most other wets - approx 400g per day so one can.

Trays recommend 1/4 - 1/3 tray so a lot less. [email protected] just say it's because the trayed food is more concentrated. Apparently they have 3 companies making their wet food:thumbup1:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> The tins give Heidi's RDA as per most other wets - approx 400g per day so one can.
> 
> Trays recommend 1/4 - 1/3 tray so a lot less. [email protected] just say it's because the trayed food is more concentrated. Apparently they have 3 companies making their wet food:thumbup1:


That seems really odd, I would have just assumed the same lot made it all. Funnily enough the pouches are made in Thailand. Have chucked them in the bin


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

hmmm, make me a bit suspicious really
does no one oversee these things?
its very strange


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

I didn't realise they came in trays. I will be looking out for them. Theres no way that Millie would eat three pouches a day! She gets a third of a pouch a day and she gets kibble also. She doesn't eat all of that most of the time either.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

The WW trays are much higher quality that the pouches (I was told this in PAH by the staff!). Trays are made in Devon and the pouches are outsourced to Thailand. I'd buy the trays, but not the pouches. 

Anyone with pouches who wants to exchange for trays - PAH do exchange without a receipt on their own brand foods.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Some months ago I contacted PAH as I feed Wainwrights and was also totally bemused by this issue.

I finally got put through to someone who did seem to know what she was talking about and she acknowledged that although it seems strange, the trays are actually* 'far better quality*' than the pouches...!!!

I was amazed that she actually said this but she was very candid and helpful.

I feed the trays but give my dog an entire tray each day, even though the feeding guide says he should be on three quarters of a tray. He would be permanently starving on that!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

TabithaJ said:


> Some months ago I contacted PAH as I feed Wainwrights and was also totally bemused by this issue.
> 
> I finally got put through to someone who did seem to know what she was talking about and she acknowledged that although it seems strange, the trays are actually* 'far better quality*' than the pouches...!!!
> 
> ...


That's very odd!

I used to feed Wainwrights & never actually went by the feeding guideline for Roxy as they seemed far too low. As we were trying to get weight on her I was feeding her double the amount the recommended amount - was costing me a fortune.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

But they are two completely different products within the same range and to be honest it all doesn't make much sense at all

*Trays: Turkey and Rice (couldn't find a chicken and rice tray)
*
Composition:

A Complete Pet Food For Dogs.
Turkey (min.65%), Turkey Liver (min. 5%), Brown Rice (min. 5%), Minerals, Seaweed, Chicory Root.

Additives; Nutritional Additives:Vitamin A:1,500µ/kg, Vitamin D3: 150µ/kg, Vitamin E (α-Tocopherol): 25µ/kg, Calcium 0.62%, Phosphorus 0.47%.

Analytical Constituents:

Protein 10.5%, Crude Fibre 5.1%, Oils & Fats 5.5%, Crude Ash 3%, Moisture 75%.

Analysis at DMA: Protein 42%, Fat 22%, Fibre* 20.4*%, Ash 12%, carbs 3.6%

*Pouches: Chicken and rice*

Composition

Chicken (Min 45%), Rice (min. 4%), Vegetables (including Peas min. 4%, Carrots min. 4%), Sunflower Oil, Vitamin and Mineral Supplements, Fish Oil, Seaweed Extract, Chicory Extract, Green Tea Extract. with Antioxidant EC Additives.

Additives

Vitamin A 5000iu/kg, Vitamin D3 200iu/kg, Vitamin E (a-tocopherol) 16iu/kg, Copper (Cupric Sulphate) 1mg/kg.

Analytical constituents

Moisture 83.5%, Protein 8%, Oils and Fats 4%, Fibre 1%, Ash 2.5%; carbs 1%

Analysis at DMA: Protein 48.5%, Fat 24.2%, Fibre 6%, Ash 15.1, carbs 6%

If you look at it from an *energy perspective*, the picture really doesn't become any clearer.

If you presume that a 25kg dog of normal activity level needs (just for _comparison purposes_ even if that figure isn't terribly accurate and of course will vary from dog to dog) 1060 kcal a day

~ then the trays contain _about _73kcal/100g, which means that just going by the macroanalysis info your dog would need to consume 1464gs of this food (not taking into account the minerals/vitamins)

~ then the pouches contain about 66kcal/100g, which means that just going by the macroanalysis info your dog would need to consume 1603g of this food (again not taking into account the minerals and vitamins).

So, true, from an energy perspective you would need to feed more of the pouches but not as much as the feeding guidelines would have you believe (largely because in this rather simplistic calculation you would need to feed substantially more of the trays than they reckon you should feed).


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

hobbs2004 said:


> But they are two completely different products within the same range and to be honest it all doesn't make much sense at all
> 
> *Trays: Turkey and Rice (couldn't find a chicken and rice tray)
> *
> ...


I agree, Hobbs - it is strange and I couldn't get satisfactory answers from PAH when I enquired about it. This led me to change to Naturediet, Natures Menu, Natures Harvest or Arden Grange Partners, as when I asked questions of these companies they seemed to know their products far better than PAH. Obviously PAH outsource their production, but surely they could have found out what I wanted to know for me.

So, I voted with my feet and changed brands. Not saying there's anything wrong with the trays - they look very good, but it was the lack of information that PAH were able to give me.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> hmmm, make me a bit suspicious really
> does no one oversee these things?
> its very strange


Lyceum and I did our best to get find out what ingredient gave the trays their high fibre. The trays are made by Forthglade. Lyceum (I'm sure she wont mind me saying) contacted Forthglade and their nutritionist was v interested. He mentioned that they are inspected by T Standards regularly and would ask. The feed back was (if I remember correctly) no more info than to say TS had ok'd WW trays.

I've spent lots of time/emails/phone calls to [email protected] They refer things to their nutritionist and come back with random answers that never clarify the point raised. Keeps coming back to chicory as a source of fibre I thought an ingredient in that quantity had to be listed but they are very vague with their answers and imply chicory contributes but isnt the sole source

Hobbs, as for the *20% Fibre*. That's a new one!!!. Both Lyceum and I had boxes of the duck that listed something like 47 instead of 4.7. (Bought different ends of the country and months apart). Ours was apparently a misprint but there was at least a connection to the original figure. 20% bears no resemblance to the 5.1% it should be.

Heidi does really well on the food and it sorts her dicky tum but I've shelved it for use only in emergencies. I want to know what my dog's eating.:mad5:


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Hobbs, as for the *20% Fibre*. That's a new one!!!. Both Lyceum and I had boxes of the duck that listed something like 47 instead of 4.7. (Bought different ends of the country and months apart). Ours was apparently a misprint but there was at least a connection to the original figure. 20% bears no resemblance to the 5.1% it should be.


M2H, the 20% of fibre in the trays refers to the proportion of fibre at dry matter analysis (ie. when the amount of moisture in the food has been accounted for). The 5.1% at crude analysis, with 75% moisture, means that when you take away the moisture that leaves you with 25% food. So 5.1/25 = 20.4%

Didn't mean to confuse you.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> M2H, the 20% of fibre in the trays refers to the proportion of fibre at dry matter analysis (ie. when the amount of moisture in the food has been accounted for). The 5.1% at crude analysis, with 75% moisture, means that when you take away the moisture that leaves you with 25% food. So 5.1/25 = 20.4%
> 
> Didn't mean to confuse you.


Ahh silly me!! I thought you were quoting from the packaging.
Either way, it's all as clear as mud and I'm opting for something I can understand and have faith in - good old Naturediet (wish they did a cat one)


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Ahh silly me!! I thought you were quoting from the packaging.
> Either way, it's all as clear as mud and I'm opting for something I can understand and have faith in - good old Naturediet (wish they did a cat one)


Oh yes, much better but appears to have quite a lot of carbs.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I take it the feeding guide for the tins could be quite largely different too then (haven't got time to go look).

Will make a point of saying WW TRAYS (not pouches) when people ask about the wet foods, the thailand thing puts me off too...


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Oh yes, much better but appears to have quite a lot of carbs.


Perhaps a mix of Zooplus brands that tend to be a bit offal dense(in my budget) but no carbs and ND with no offal will balance the scales a bit :biggrin:

Just read your earlier post and spotted my mistake. That'll teach me to start looking at what I'm reading and not scan aimlessly



GoldenShadow said:


> I take it the feeding guide for the tins could be quite largely different too then (haven't got time to go look).


If I remember correctly the RDA for them was approx 1 can per day for Heidi and they contain the same quantity as the trays or there abouts


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Perhaps a mix of Zooplus brands that tend to be a bit offal dense(in my budget) but no carbs and ND with no offal will balance the scales a bit :biggrin:
> 
> Just read your earlier post and spotted my mistake. That'll teach me to start looking at what I'm reading and not scan aimlessly


ND don't use any organ meat/offal? Did you ask what their definition of meat by-products is, which they say they don't use? Technically, a lot of organ meat/offal is fit for human consumption so could fall into their "quality meat" category.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> ND don't use any organ meat/offal? Did you ask what their definition of meat by-products is, which they say they don't use? Technically, a lot of organ meat/offal is fit for human consumption so could fall into their "quality meat" category.


ND too many carbs - poss cause for concern
Rocco too much offal another poss cause for concern (which was debated here a while ago)
By giving a mixture of both, I lessen the carb and offal. That was my point but mainly being light hearted. It all confuses me

 I had no idea ND contained meat/by products - off to have a gander:thumbup1:


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

henry said:


> The WW trays are much higher quality that the pouches (I was told this in PAH by the staff!). Trays are made in Devon and the pouches are outsourced to Thailand. I'd buy the trays, but not the pouches.
> 
> Anyone with pouches who wants to exchange for trays - PAH do exchange without a receipt on their own brand foods.


Awesome! I have never seen the trays. But I will be getting them from now on! She also has Natures Diet and JWB.


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