# Cross Breeding...



## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Whilst looking through various sites, I 've noticed quite a few Ragdoll X Persian, Ragdoll X BSH... etc etc

I didn't think you were supposed to cross Ragdolls (amoungst other breeds) to try and preserve the breed and to try and keep the characteristics and personality of which the Ragdoll is famous for?


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## Kay73 (Mar 26, 2008)

i think that applies to registered ragdolls on the active breeding register!


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Sadly Bee, there are people who will cross breed to make a quick buck!! Registered Breeders would'nt dream of crossing their breed, but then you can't anyway, it's just not the done thing. We are here to preserve our cats, not cross them with whatever we want just to make some money. Sadly people will pay the rediculous prices for them, just because they have a breed name or they look like a partuicular breed that they're crossed with. You expect to pay at least £400 upwards for registered breeds, from reputable breeders.*


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *Sadly Bee, there are people who will cross breed to make a quick buck!! Registered Breeders would'nt dream of crossing their breed, but then you can't anyway, it's just not the done thing. We are here to preserve our cats, not cross them with whatever we want just to make some money. Sadly people will pay the rediculous prices for them, just because they have a breed name or they look like a partuicular breed that they're crossed with. You expect to pay at least £400 upwards for registered breeds, from reputable breeders.*


Totally agree Selk-put really well and from the heart


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## MrsNik (Dec 5, 2007)

I have a BSH cross (who actualy looks more like a maincoon) and her mum was a moggy. Didnt pay a penny for her...just wanted to say that not ALL crossbred kittens are for people to make a quick buck. In this situation mummy cat was booked in to be spayed and found to be pregnant (had been a housecat that decided to bolt out the door!!).


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Sorry, but if you read my post properly I did'nt say everyone. I said sadly there are people who will do it for a quick buck. One of my cats was free from a similar situation, her dad is a Maine Coon, total accident, which happens to the best of people*


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

I agree with everything Selk67U2 says. You should do your research, ring around a few breeders for a chat, if possible get recommendations from them and so on...... 

So many people getting ripped off buying "crosses" and pay through the nose for them....it's a shame and at the end of the day it is not the cat's fault!


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## juelexi (Oct 10, 2008)

people CROSS bred different cats to MAKE the kind of kitten that is so expensive... look at the ocicat for example... Cross breed a siamese with an Aby and you got an ocicat... guess what? the siamese and the Aby are two different reregistered cats!

look at the Bengal now, that is not only cross breeding different kinds of cats, but it's crossing SPECIES!

so honestly, i don't think breeders, or anyone for that matter, should have any say about not cross breeding... when it is what they are all about.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

juelexi said:


> look at the Bengal now, that is not only cross breeding different kinds of cats, but it's crossing SPECIES!


What do you mean?


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Bit excessive for a first post
My breed was not cross bred to get it, just for the record *


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## juelexi (Oct 10, 2008)

Bengal's were created to look like the Asian leopard, with a domestic cats behavior. they are created by breeding small wild cats with regular domestic cats. 

sorry for starting off with a bang so to speak  

i love the bengal species personally, just trying to state some facts about breeding.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2008)

All cats and dogs were ORIGINALLY crossed but then thats not what bee was asking


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

juelexi said:


> Bengal's were created to look like the Asian leopard, with a domestic cats behavior. they are created by breeding small wild cats with regular domestic cats.
> 
> sorry for starting off with a bang so to speak
> 
> i love the bengal species personally, just trying to state some facts about breeding.


I know there origin i have 2 of them.

They are origianally alc x domestic shorthair both are cats and the same SPECIES as you call it, both FELINE.

get your facts right before you state them.

and welcome to the forum


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## Aud's_Mum (Aug 4, 2008)

There are so many people advertising persians on preloved etc.. and they are quite clearly not persians but cross breeds!! 

Have stumbled across a few of the Persian x Ragdoll as well and i just dont get it - surely you have a persian because of its looks and temperament etc and the same for a Ragdoll?? Why cross the two? they have their own personalities without mixing it up elsewhere 

_*counts to 10 and sits back..*_

Sorry for the rant!!


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

grrr backyard breeders bug me. we have an add on the board at work for siamese crosses. the add reads... litter trained, fleaed, wormed (not vaccinated!!) and they want £50 for them!!! they are basically moggies!!!!! for £50 with no vaccs. they must be high... they prolly fleaed them with bob martins too... 


i know some cross breeding can be good for the breed and i know some are due to research on breeds and making 'heathier' cats... i mean we wouldn't have the Ocicat, Bengal, and many others if it wasn't for some cross breeding. but now there are Cheetohs(bengalxocicats) and toygers(bengalxDSH) meh i donno... where do you draw the line?


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Aud's_Mum said:


> There are so many people advertising persians on preloved etc.. and they are quite clearly not persians but cross breeds!!
> 
> Have stumbled across a few of the Persian x Ragdoll as well and i just dont get it - surely you have a persian because of its looks and temperament etc and the same for a Ragdoll?? Why cross the two? they have their own personalities without mixing it up elsewhere
> 
> ...


Thats what I was wondering really.. I know the Ragdoll in particular is most famous for his/her personality.. that is the reason I chose this breed.

So I just dont know why people would cross them, because without that personality they arn't really a true Raggie!


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Just came across this £300 birman x ragdoll

Ragdoll X Birman in Gillingham, Kent ( Cats For Sale )

2 adds down Gccf reg ragdolls £300, i know which id go for


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

jens4cats said:


> Just came across this £300 birman x ragdoll
> 
> Ragdoll X Birman in Gillingham, Kent ( Cats For Sale )
> 
> 2 adds down Gccf reg ragdolls £300, i know which id go for


lol madness isnt it


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## Aud's_Mum (Aug 4, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Thats what I was wondering really.. I know the Ragdoll in particular is most famous for his/her personality.. that is the reason I chose this breed.
> 
> So I just dont know why people would cross them, because without that personality they arn't really a true Raggie!


Absolutely! A Persian is a Persian and a Raggie is a Raggie! Two amazing breeds of cat and i cant understand why people want to cross the two?


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Super Ragdoll X Exotic Kitten in Bradford, West Yorkshire ( Cats For Sale )

This is even more strange, doesnt look like either breed to me.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> grrr backyard breeders bug me. we have an add on the board at work for siamese crosses. the add reads... litter trained, fleaed, wormed (not vaccinated!!) and they want £50 for them!!! they are basically moggies!!!!! for £50 with no vaccs. they must be high... they prolly fleaed them with bob martins too...
> 
> i know some cross breeding can be good for the breed and i know some are due to research on breeds and making 'heathier' cats... i mean we wouldn't have the Ocicat, Bengal, and many others if it wasn't for some cross breeding. but now there are Cheetohs(bengalxocicats) and toygers(bengalxDSH) meh i donno... where do you draw the line?


I paid £50 for half siamese not vaccinated kittens. They are fine cats and I think it was a good price since some people try charge alot more. Sometimes accidents happen.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

what is wrong with bob martins? at least the owners are trying to do what is best for the kittens in giving them some flea protection.


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

This is one thing I really don't get... although I'm not very well read up on the subject, so maybe I can't comment.

...I'm a moggie lover, always have been, always will be, but I don't see what the harm is in crossing or not crossing.

When a ped breeder says they breed to preserve/improve their breed, I think thats great, but that to me is a reason to do it their way, it is not a reason not to do it another way...if ya get what I mean.
To try and clarify, I don't understand why it is bad to cross, I only understand why it is good to pure breed.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

oh................


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> This is one thing I really don't get... although I'm not very well read up on the subject, so maybe I can't comment.
> 
> ...I'm a moggie lover, always have been, always will be, but I don't see what the harm is in crossing or not crossing.
> 
> ...


yes exactly where do you draw the line?



fluffypurrs said:


> what is wrong with bob martins? at least the owners are trying to do what is best for the kittens in giving them some flea protection.


Bob Martin's is flea repellent not flea killer so unless you are dosing yourself and your house and everything else that comes in, you aren't really protecting anything. they can still breed in your house and be eaten by your pets and cause worm infections. their wormers don't cover the worms they need to and can lead owners to believe they do. not to mention bob martin's doesn't make it clear about using the dog and cat versions and many cats come in with dog treatment and don't make it out of the vets.  ask any vets office or anyone that works with animals professionally Bob Martins is a waste of money.



fluffypurrs said:


> I paid £50 for half siamese not vaccinated kittens. They are fine cats and I think it was a good price since some people try charge alot more. Sometimes accidents happen.


I even wonder if the Siamese is a pure bred. this said 'breeder' has been told off a few times for over breeding one of her queens as well. you should see the state of the poor thing. they finally were convinced to let us spay her as she was in horrible state, she was a chinchilla cross and was being bred with a moggie to make chinchilla cross kittens to sell for even more than the Siamese crosses! I would even doubt that the Siamese only mated with one of her 'studs' ...toms.
i can understand accidents happen but these are not accidents. just money makers.
__________________
-Steph


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Alot of those cross bred cats come from cats that were sold as pets, i wouldnt want a kitten i sold as a pet to be bred from.

They might of been sold as pet only for a reason, 

My kittens are B blood group, if a female was bred to a moggy or another breed with an A blood, those kittens would almost certainly die a terrible death.

If a male B was bred to an A ,Those kittens would carry B, if they were then bred to an A probably around half would die.

I dont think these people who cross breeds even bother to look into things like blood grouping.


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

fluffypurrs said:


> oh................


i know   makes me mad but i can't say anything and my boss can only advise her not to do it. he can't make her it really upsets the lot of us working there.


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> yes exactly where do you draw the line?


but why do we need to draw a line?


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Alot of those cross bred cats come from cats that were sold as pets, i wouldnt want a kitten i sold as a pet to be bred from.
> 
> They might of been sold as pet only for a reason,
> 
> ...


is the blood grouping only with certain breeds? this is new to me and i'm very interested in learning about it. even working where i work we don't get many breeders in as some breeders don't 'need' the vets really unless there are issues. we have a couple but they are either really busy and i never see them or they always have problems and i don't really want to ask them!! lol


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> i know   makes me mad but i can't say anything and my boss can only advise her not to do it. he can't make her it really upsets the lot of us working there.


Couldnt you tell her your not going to put her adds up any more, i know it wont stop her but if people see an add in a vets surgery it might give them the impression they are well bred kittens or something.

just a thought


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> but why do we need to draw a line?


because some of the breeding is beneficial and some of it has horrible results and is un researched and just done for kicks or to make money.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Sorry *high horse* alert. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but labeling anyone who does not have a litter of pure bred, registered pedigree cats as a BYB or BSB is utterly ridiculous. I can think of plenty of breeders mass producing registered pedigree kittens, who are underweight, inter bred, poorly socialised and sick from day one  those are BYBs in my eyes.

If someone has a mistake litter, or has 2 pedigree cats that they wish to breed from, where both have been bought with the breeders permission that they can be bred from, what does it matter if they mix breeds? Those resulting kittens can never end up back in a pedigree line. I dont see what the problem is as long as the kittens are healthy, well socialized and not mis represented in any advert and the breeder properly vets any prospective owner, what difference does it make. If someone is stupid enough to pay a ridiculously high price for a cross breed kitten that is unvaccinated, and people must be or they wouldnt be charging that price then more fool them. Its the kitten and cats welfare that is surely the most important thing. BYBs are people with or without registered prefixes that mass produce poorly kittens as described above, just advertising a litter of cross breed kittens does not make that person a BYB out for making a quick buck.


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Couldnt you tell her your not going to put her adds up any more, i know it wont stop her but if people see an add in a vets surgery it might give them the impression they are well bred kittens or something.
> 
> just a thought


i sometimes take them down... but they usually come back up again she even used one of our envelopes to write on the back for one!!!!  tacky and trashy imho but it's still not my place to tell her anything. it would be up to my boss and he doesn't feel its going to make any difference.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> is the blood grouping only with certain breeds? this is new to me and i'm very interested in learning about it. even working where i work we don't get many breeders in as some breeders don't 'need' the vets really unless there are issues. we have a couple but they are either really busy and i never see them or they always have problems and i don't really want to ask them!! lol


I know british shorthairs are A an B groups, pretty sure its the same for devon rex, selkirks, somalis, maybe even persians and exotics but iam not 100% on that.

Iam pretty sure all bengals are A so you will be ok


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Sorry *high horse* alert. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but labeling anyone who does not have a litter of pure bred, registered pedigree cats as a BYB or BSB is utterly ridiculous. I can think of plenty of breeders mass producing registered pedigree kittens, who are underweight, inter bred, poorly socialised and sick from day one  those are BYBs in my eyes.
> 
> If someone has a mistake litter, or has 2 pedigree cats that they wish to breed from, where both have been bought with the breeders permission that they can be bred from, what does it matter if they mix breeds? Those resulting kittens can never end up back in a pedigree line. I dont see what the problem is as long as the kittens are healthy, well socialized and not mis represented in any advert and the breeder properly vets any prospective owner, what difference does it make. If someone is stupid enough to pay a ridiculously high price for a cross breed kitten that is unvaccinated, and people must be or they wouldnt be charging that price then more fool them. Its the kitten and cats welfare that is surely the most important thing. BYBs are people with or without registered prefixes that mass produce poorly kittens as described above, just advertising a litter of cross breed kittens does not make that person a BYB out for making a quick buck.


If some one wanted one of your kittens to breed with there moggy, no matter how well they were going to do it would you sell them one?


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Sorry *high horse* alert. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but labeling anyone who does not have a litter of pure bred, registered pedigree cats as a BYB or BSB is utterly ridiculous. I can think of plenty of breeders mass producing registered pedigree kittens, who are underweight, inter bred, poorly socialised and sick from day one  those are BYBs in my eyes.
> 
> If someone has a mistake litter, or has 2 pedigree cats that they wish to breed from, where both have been bought with the breeders permission that they can be bred from, what does it matter if they mix breeds? Those resulting kittens can never end up back in a pedigree line. I dont see what the problem is as long as the kittens are healthy, well socialized and not mis represented in any advert and the breeder properly vets any prospective owner, what difference does it make. If someone is stupid enough to pay a ridiculously high price for a cross breed kitten that is unvaccinated, and people must be or they wouldnt be charging that price then more fool them. Its the kitten and cats welfare that is surely the most important thing. BYBs are people with or without registered prefixes that mass produce poorly kittens as described above, just advertising a litter of cross breed kittens does not make that person a BYB out for making a quick buck.


yes i agree but these kittens are not healthy and are misrepresented and still trying to be sold as £50 - £300 because they are related to a recognised pedigree it's unfair to the punters that have no clue and think they are getting this new hybrid designer pet. which really is just going to cost them a fortune or die in medical issues.


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> I know british shorthairs are A an B groups, pretty sure its the same for devon rex, selkirks, somalis, maybe even persians and exotics but iam not 100% on that.
> 
> Iam pretty sure all bengals are A so you will be ok


thank you!


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Sorry *high horse* alert. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but labeling anyone who does not have a litter of pure bred, registered pedigree cats as a BYB or BSB is utterly ridiculous. I can think of plenty of breeders mass producing registered pedigree kittens, who are underweight, inter bred, poorly socialised and sick from day one  those are BYBs in my eyes.
> 
> If someone has a mistake litter, or has 2 pedigree cats that they wish to breed from, where both have been bought with the breeders permission that they can be bred from, what does it matter if they mix breeds? Those resulting kittens can never end up back in a pedigree line. I dont see what the problem is as long as the kittens are healthy, well socialized and not mis represented in any advert and the breeder properly vets any prospective owner, what difference does it make. If someone is stupid enough to pay a ridiculously high price for a cross breed kitten that is unvaccinated, and people must be or they wouldnt be charging that price then more fool them. Its the kitten and cats welfare that is surely the most important thing. BYBs are people with or without registered prefixes that mass produce poorly kittens as described above, just advertising a litter of cross breed kittens does not make that person a BYB out for making a quick buck.


Well I think I sort of agree with you.
If someone is breeding a healthy litter (registered or unregisterd / moggie, cross or ped / free, cheap or expensive), I really cannot see what the problem is.

I also don't think the cost of these kittens has anything to do with it, you might think £50 is an expensive price to pay for an unregistered un vaccinated kitten, and you might think people are silly for apying it, but I tell you something, as much as all these peds look lovely, I certianly wouldn't pay £400 for one when I can fall in love with a free/cheap moggie just as well.


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> yes i agree but these kittens are not healthy and are misrepresented and still trying to be sold as £50 - £300 because they are related to a recognised pedigree it's unfair to the punters that have no clue and think they are getting this new hybrid designer pet. which really is just going to cost them a fortune or die in medical issues.


How do you know they are not healthy? And more so, how do you know a ped is???


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> If some one wanted one of your kittens to breed with there moggy, no matter how well they were going to do it would you sell them one?


I wouldn't sell any of my kittens for breeding unless I know the person well enough to know that they have the same breeding ethics that I do, thats my own personal choice, but I wouldn't condemn someone else if they did. As long as that person had litters responsibly.

I did make the point that if those people selling cross breed kittens had the respective breeders of the parents permission to breed from those cats then that does not automatically make them a BYB


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> Well I think I sort of agree with you.
> If someone is breeding a healthy litter (registered or unregisterd / moggie, cross or ped / free, cheap or expensive), I really cannot see what the problem is.
> 
> I also don't think the cost of these kittens has anything to do with it, you might think £50 is an expensive price to pay for an unregistered un vaccinated kitten, and you might think people are silly for apying it, but I tell you something, as much as all these peds look lovely, I certianly wouldn't pay £400 for one when I can fall in love with a free/cheap moggie just as well.


exactly there are so many lil moggs that need homes that will be sold for £30 or for free pay more just for the x of a pedigree makes me sad  it's like they are using the cat for money when they do it like that. i could understand wormed, litter trained, de fleaed and 1st vaccination £50 easy but with out vaccs £30 is all i would be willing to pay.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

helz said:


> How do you know they are not healthy? And more so, how do you know a ped is???


How do you know they are?, at least if theve had one vacs theve been checked over, but most of these crosses arent


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> yes i agree but these kittens are not healthy and are misrepresented and still trying to be sold as £50 - £300 because they are related to a recognised pedigree it's unfair to the punters that have no clue and think they are getting this new hybrid designer pet. which really is just going to cost them a fortune or die in medical issues.


You are talking about a specific person who is known to you. Doesn't mean everyone who has a litter(s) of crosses falls into the same category! As I said I can think of a few breeders with registered prefixes happily breeding poor queens into the ground.


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

Saikou said:


> You are talking about a specific person who is known to you. Doesn't mean everyone who has a litter(s) of crosses falls into the same category! As I said I can think of a few breeders with registered prefixes happily breeding poor queens into the ground.


i am referring to a specific person and using also my experience of some others that i have witnessed. not all and i'm not claiming all. but this is the point i'm making there's no real regulation and where do you draw the line. what can be done to help keep the breeding healthy? it seems that's what the GCCF and Tica were trying to do but it's just so vast that they just can't control them all  not preaching just discussing here. i don't really know enough yet to really have a full opinion myself just like hearing about others opinions on the topic. as i have seen some horrible instances


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

I think selling on the breeding register is fairly meaninless now, because people have case law on their side... not sure of the name of the case, or how many there have been but an owner took a breeder to court because they decided they wanted their pet cat on the breeding register and the court forced the breeder to do so.

I don't like the idea of breeders being able to decide whether their cats can or cannot be bred from either. I think once you have sold the cat, it should be up to the new owner to do what they want with it.
Besides, you are not saying it cannot be bred from, you are saying they cannot register the off spring... aren't you?


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> and to answer your question on a more general note. you're not to know they are healthy until you have them checked or until they go ill.


Yeah, I see what your saying, but because some crosses are unhealthy, you cannot possibly say that all are.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

helz said:


> I think selling on the breeding register is fairly meaninless now, because people have case law on their side... not sure of the name of the case, or how many there have been but an owner took a breeder to court because they decided they wanted their pet cat on the breeding register and the court forced the breeder to do so.
> 
> I don't like the idea of breeders being able to decide whether their cats can or cannot be bred from either. I think once you have sold the cat, it should be up to the new owner to do what they want with it.
> Besides, you are not saying it cannot be bred from, you are saying they cannot register the off spring... aren't you?


It depends, alot of breeders neuter before they go, that way those people that would mislead you and say they want a pet when they have every intention of breeding soon change their mind


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> I think selling on the breeding register is fairly meaninless now, because people have case law on their side... not sure of the name of the case, or how many there have been but an owner took a breeder to court because they decided they wanted their pet cat on the breeding register and the court forced the breeder to do so.
> 
> I don't like the idea of breeders being able to decide whether their cats can or cannot be bred from either. I think once you have sold the cat, it should be up to the new owner to do what they want with it.
> Besides, you are not saying it cannot be bred from, you are saying they cannot register the off spring... aren't you?


yes i'm actually worried myself about knowing if my bengal kittens are going to be worthy of breeding or not. i mean i can follow the ideals online and ask other breeders but what real proof is there that they will or will not be good gene carriers? it's like every county would need a supervisor to come and check all the litters and say they are breedable or not. which would be a nightmare!!! lol


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> It depends, alot of breeders neuter before they go, that way those people that would mislead you and say they want a pet when they have every intention of breeding soon change their mind


Well if one does that, then they are certainly stopping them from being bred from, but at what risk...??? What age are these kittens being sold? The reason my vets will not spey younger than 6 months is because of the effects of anesthetic on small kittens... surely putting a kitten at risk like that is pretty bad? and for what reason, why do they not want their kittens bred from?


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> yes i'm actually worried myself about knowing if my bengal kittens are going to be worthy of breeding or not. i mean i can follow the ideals online and ask other breeders but what real proof is there that they will or will not be good gene carriers? it's like every county would need a supervisor to come and check all the litters and say they are breedable or not. which would be a nightmare!!! lol


Yeah, sure sounds like it would be.
But it seems to me that every statment that is made on this topic, seems to make me ask why.

Why do breeders need to be so careful? Where did these risks come from?
I cannot beleive that nature put them there, otherwise we would see it in every species... wouldn't we?
I made this statment in the dog forum not so long ago, and I will say it again here, when was the last time you went out on a date with someone and checked out their 'breeding line' for compatability? Something must have made this mess in the first place.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

helz said:


> why do they not want their kittens bred from?


Because alot of time , effort , money, research goes in to breeding a litter of kittens as close to the breed standard as possible.

For what, so some money grabber can ruin all that to produce what is esentially a moggy.

IMO


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Because alot of time , effort , money, research goes in to breeding a litter of kittens as close to the breed standard as possible.
> 
> For what, so some money grabber can ruin all that to produce what is esentially a moggy.
> 
> IMO


How are they runining the breeders hard work by cross breeding?
The are not reducing the numbers of the particular breed out there, they are just increasing the amount of other breeds (or not so breeds as the case may be). And what is wrong with breeding a moggy?


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> Yeah, sure sounds like it would be.
> But it seems to me that every statment that is made on this topic, seems to make me ask why.
> 
> Why do breeders need to be so careful? Where did these risks come from?
> ...


don't you ever wonder why you fancy someone? do you seriously believe it's just their personality or aesthetics? surely its how they adapt to things in life and how they handle danger and how strong they are and how healthy they are? you're choosing someone to procreate with! surely you want the fittest of the fit no? and we do see with over breeding the effects of crossing unhealthy genes causes birth defects and deaths.


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> i am referring to a specific person and using also my experience of some others that i have witnessed. not all and i'm not claiming all. but this is the point i'm making there's no real regulation and where do you draw the line. what can be done to help keep the breeding healthy? it seems that's what the GCCF and Tica were trying to do but it's just so vast that they just can't control them all  not preaching just discussing here. i don't really know enough yet to really have a full opinion myself just like hearing about others opinions on the topic. as i have seen some horrible instances


http://www.petforums.co.uk/318376-post15.html with the comment about BYBs making you angry was in response to an advert about persian ragdoll crosses bred by someone who you had no knowledge of.

There is no real regulation of breeding within the GCCF, no maximum inbreeding coefficient, nor defined maximum number of litters per year. Nothing to stop people using lines that are known to carry serious health problems etc


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> How are they runining the breeders hard work by cross breeding?
> The are not reducing the numbers of the particular breed out there, they are just increasing the amount of other breeds (or not so breeds as the case may be). And what is wrong with breeding a moggy?


why breed a moggie and sell it for your own profit when there are so many lil guys that need homes in the rescue centres????


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> don't you ever wonder why you fancy someone? do you seriously believe it's just their personality or aesthetics? surely its how they adapt to things in life and how they handle danger and how strong they are and how healthy they are? you're choosing someone to procreate with! surely you want the fittest of the fit no? and we do see with over breeding the effects of crossing unhealthy genes causes birth defects and deaths.


No, I think all the good looking people get the good people, the average looking people get the average looking ones, and the ugly people pick up the ugly ones that are left...

On a serious note, I think it has very little to do with 'good matches' as far as genetics is concerned, scientific tests have shown that we are attracted to people with easy to process features. But aswell as having a high demand for what people look like, we drop them if the do not have a personality or are not going to be able to provide for us/with us. And we keep things mixed up.


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

Saikou said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/318376-post15.html with the comment about BYBs making you angry was in response to an advert about persian ragdoll crosses bred by someone who you had no knowledge of.
> 
> There is no real regulation of breeding within the GCCF, no minimum inbreeding coefficient, nor defined maximum number of litters per year. Nothing to stop people using lines that are known to carry serious health problems etc


ah ok cheers for the clarification.

as for regulation i know there isn't much of it now but the question is... should there be?


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> why breed a moggie and sell it for your own profit when there are so many lil guys that need homes in the rescue centres????


But the same applies to breeding peds, if there were not so many peds around, maybe the people that originally wanted a ped would get themselves a moggy from the rescue centre.
...so that doesn't really answer my question


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Most definitely but it would be an administrative nightmare.


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> But the same applies to breeding peds, if there were not so many peds around, maybe the people that originally wanted a ped would get themselves a moggy from the rescue centre.
> ...so that doesn't really answer my question


but the peds are bred for their aesthetics, health and temperament. moggies can't be determined as always having the same characteristics where the peds can.


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## firestormkitty (Apr 27, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Super Ragdoll X Exotic Kitten in Bradford, West Yorkshire ( Cats For Sale )
> 
> This is even more strange, doesnt look like either breed to me.


That just looks like a normal moggy to me


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> but the peds are bred for their aesthetics, health and temperament. moggies can't be determined as always having the same characteristics where the peds can.


...yeah...erm i guess this is because I am a moggie lover...but...so what???

basically i cannot understand someone preferring one type of cat over another, my moggies all have complelty different looks and personalities but I love them each just as much. Oh and peds end up in rescue centres too.
Plus if you were looking for a particular personality, then go to a rescue centre and they will match you to one they ahve got.


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## firestormkitty (Apr 27, 2008)

Cant get my head round cross breeding cats. Why would you wanna do it, you have a perfect healthy normal cat why ruin it. Next people would be cross breeding cats with rabbits or something daft just to gain big ears


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Iam a moggy lover too, i have one , leo , but hes frightened of everything, i think something happened to him as a kitten, he also has a heart murmour, if he had his 1st vacs before i had him i would of known about it, 

Thats why i would only have a pedigree cat now, i want to know when their birthday is who there dad was, etc.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

firestormkitty said:


> Cant get my head round cross breeding cats. Why would you wanna do it, you have a perfect healthy normal cat why ruin it. Next people would be cross breeding cats with rabbits or something daft just to gain big ears


They would be called Cabbits, pmsl!!!

I wonder how much we could sell them for


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

firestormkitty said:


> Cant get my head round cross breeding cats. Why would you wanna do it, you have a perfect healthy normal cat why ruin it. Next people would be cross breeding cats with rabbits or something daft just to gain big ears


I have heard this statement before, how are they runining anything?
They are not changing any existing peds, they are not reducing the amount of peds, they are increasing the amount of moggys.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

With some of the inbreeding that goes on in certain lines, I would guess that a moggie is probably healthier than those pedigrees. Take my breed Siamese are supposed to be long lived, it seems nowadays you are lucky if you can get a modern type meezer beyond the age of 10yrs. Its very sad.

Temperament is more down to the way they are bought up and how well they are socialised. There's a whole new debate - nature over nurture


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*I have Peds & a Mog. I would never dream of crossing my Norwegians with another breed. Although sadly there seems to be a canny few Norwegian crosses for sale lately Makes me mad because MOST of us are trying to preserve these beautiful cats*


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *I have Peds & a Mog. I would never dream of crossing my Norwegians with another breed. Although sadly there seems to be a canny few Norwegian crosses for sale lately Makes me mad because MOST of us are trying to preserve these beautiful cats*


My same question/statment goes to you then Selks, what I cannot get my head round, is why you think they are doing anything to not preserve your breed.
They are increasing the amount of moggies and not decreasing the amount of peds.


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## firestormkitty (Apr 27, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> They would be called Cabbits, pmsl!!!
> 
> I wonder how much we could sell them for


lol  Least they would hear you if you called them wonder what they would eat cat food or carrots


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

There seems to be a lot of people selling british shorthairs un reg too, probably bred from pet quality cats, most of them dont even look like a british


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## firestormkitty (Apr 27, 2008)

Before poo hits fire lets have group hug


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

> My same question/statment goes to you then Selks, what I cannot get my head round, is why you think they are doing anything to not preserve your breed.
> They are increasing the amount of moggies and not decreasing the amount of peds.


*How can they be preserving the breed if they are crossing it Norwegian Forest cats are a natural breed, not man made*


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

firestormkitty said:


> Before poo hits fire lets have group hug


((((((big hug)))))


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## firestormkitty (Apr 27, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *How can they be preserving the breed if they are crossing it Norwegian Forest cats are a natural breed, not man made*


I agree with you selk


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

firestormkitty said:


> Before poo hits fire lets have group hug


0
<
1

...thats supposed to be my arms outstreatche...


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## firestormkitty (Apr 27, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> ((((((big hug)))))


Yay lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

helz said:


> 0
> <
> 1
> 
> ...thats supposed to be my arms outstreatche...


LOL.....


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *How can they be preserving the breed if they are crossing it Norwegian Forest cats are a natural breed, not man made*


Because they are not affecting any existing Norwegian, nor are they stopping any new Norwegiens being born.
They are effectivly making extra moggies, so its no different to someone breeding two moggs. It has the same implication on your breed... none.

(These are genuine questions btw, I only have a partly formed opinion on this, and as I said in the begining, I am not very well read, so you may well come out with something I didn't know about/hadn't thought of).


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Well, you have your opinions but I also have mine and to me and most other Norwegian breeders crossbreeding is a big no, no I would think the same goes for the other pedigree breeders too*


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Okay... let me give a really obscure example of what I mean... lets talk about apples.

I have 100 apples, I am going to give you one, and tell you, you are not allowed to plant the seeds and make any more apples.

I have 99 apples, and you go off with your apple quite happily.

As you are not allowed to make apples with it, you decide to plant to seeds and turn the produce into apple puree.

I still have the same amount of apples, you still have you original apple, the only difference is, there is a load of puree in the world too. You haven't done anything to my apples, or any other farmers apples.

Do you see my point, of have I just made you all think I'm a bit crazy... about apples.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *How can they be preserving the breed if they are crossing it Norwegian Forest cats are a natural breed, not man made*



Unless they are passing off a cross as a NF then they are doing nothing to the NF breed surely? Even if they were trying to pass off a cross as an NF its more an issue for trades description. That offspring would never end up back in an NF breeding line as he/she would have no papers.


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Not really no, because apples are meant to be made into lots of things, preserving animals is another matter*


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Unless they are passing off a cross as a NF then they are doing nothing to the NF breed surely? Even if they were trying to pass off a cross as an NF its more an issue for trades description. That offspring would never end up back in an NF breeding line as he/she would have no papers.


Oooo I think someone understand me....


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

You mad apple woman,lol

only 4 more posts to vip


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *Well, you have your opinions but I also have mine and to me and most other Norwegian breeders crossbreeding is a big no, no I would think the same goes for the other pedigree breeders too*


tbh, I don't really have a proper opinion yet, I am just asking questions and trying to form a well thought out one.
Its the 'whys' I am having problems with.


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> You mad apple woman,lol
> 
> only 4 more posts to vip


Oh wow, I didn't even realise that.
About time, I been hanging around this forum for ages!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *Well, you have your opinions but I also have mine and to me and most other Norwegian breeders crossbreeding is a big no, no I would think the same goes for the other pedigree breeders too*



I own a UK Gr Pr oriental black who is 7 generations from a moggie kitten found with her Mum under a gooseberry bush. A line of siamese and orientals were created (above board all registered with the GCCF) from that moggie. He is a pedigree with hopefully a nice bit of hybrid vigour behind him - he is 10yrs old now and still looks the same as he did when he got his UK at the age of 3yrs.


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## Sungold-Bengals (Mar 10, 2008)

There clearly are no right or wrong answers here - it's a matter of opinion and preference.

I like moggies but I don't class persian x siamese (for example) as moggies that is a deliberate mix. I see moggies as produce of a cat of unknown origin, mother isn't clearly indentified as a breed and father is unknown.

I know my personal choice is 'pure' whatever the breed. I don't want something that almost looks like something - I want the real thing.

It's a bit like diamonds & diamonique, they may look similar but you know they're not 

I just don't see why people don't breed the same 'type' of breeds together, perhaps it's a mental thing, when I see ads for crosses of anything it makes me feel that they just couldn't be bothered to look after them properly or it wouldn't have happened. I know accidents happen when you keep multi breed households. Most of these crossbreeds are purposely bred. So even if people are going to breed un-reg cats why can't they be of the same breed?

Just my thoughts not aimed at anyone in particular


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Sungold-Bengals said:


> I just don't see why people don't breed the same 'type' of breeds together, perhaps it's a mental thing, when I see ads for crosses of anything it makes me feel that they just couldn't be bothered to look after them properly or it wouldn't have happened. I know accidents happen when you keep multi breed households. Most of these crossbreeds are purposely bred. So even if people are going to breed un-reg cats why can't they be of the same breed?


Yeah that makes alot of sense.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

if these people want to breed moggies for the love of it then let them breed a moggy with another moggy, oh no.wait a minute.thats no good, they wont make any cash, thats why they do it..............LETS KEEP ALL PEDIGREE CATS PURE........thats my arguement. ............best wishes............Chris.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

The Ocicat came about because a breeder in the US (Virginia Daly) was attempting to breed an "aby pointed Siamese" (i.e. a ticked tabby pointed Siamese) - a legitimate experiment if you ask me, although of course tabby pointed Siamese came about by a different route in the end. She was very surprised when a spotted kitten appeared, but then saw the potential to develop a spotted breed, a wild cat lookalike with NO wild ancestry. Hence the Ocicat was born. [

The classic UK example of cross breeding developing into a unique new breed is of course the Asian, whiich started from an accidental (atlhough some would say deliberate!) mating of a Burmese to a Chinchilla.

QUOTE=juelexi;318319]people CROSS bred different cats to MAKE the kind of kitten that is so expensive... look at the ocicat for example... Cross breed a siamese with an Aby and you got an ocicat... guess what? the siamese and the Aby are two different reregistered cats!

look at the Bengal now, that is not only cross breeding different kinds of cats, but it's crossing SPECIES!

so honestly, i don't think breeders, or anyone for that matter, should have any say about not cross breeding... when it is what they are all about.[/QUOTE]


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

dpeends what you mean by pure......... Asians can be mated to Burmese, Orientals can be mated to Siamese, Persians to Exotics.... etc.



raggs said:


> if these people want to breed moggies for the love of it then let them breed a moggy with another moggy, oh no.wait a minute.thats no good, they wont make any cash, thats why they do it..............LETS KEEP ALL PEDIGREE CATS PURE........thats my arguement. ............best wishes............Chris.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

yes it's only a problem with certain breeds. e.g BSH, birman, DEvon Rex. There is a good article on a website somewhere that explains all about it but I can't find the link now 



ErbslinTrouble said:


> is the blood grouping only with certain breeds? this is new to me and i'm very interested in learning about it. even working where i work we don't get many breeders in as some breeders don't 'need' the vets really unless there are issues. we have a couple but they are either really busy and i never see them or they always have problems and i don't really want to ask them!! lol


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Neutering kittens prior to sale solves that problem nicely 



helz said:


> I think selling on the breeding register is fairly meaninless now, because people have case law on their side... not sure of the name of the case, or how many there have been but an owner took a breeder to court because they decided they wanted their pet cat on the breeding register and the court forced the breeder to do so.
> 
> I don't like the idea of breeders being able to decide whether their cats can or cannot be bred from either. I think once you have sold the cat, it should be up to the new owner to do what they want with it.
> Besides, you are not saying it cannot be bred from, you are saying they cannot register the off spring... aren't you?


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

What effects? If a vet couldn't put a kitten under anaesthetic at less than 6 months, what would happen if it had a serious condition requiring immediate surgery (i think we've had this discussion before!) My kittens are netuered at 13-14 weeks and they are absolutely fine, they recover quicker even than a a 6 month old.



helz said:


> Well if one does that, then they are certainly stopping them from being bred from, but at what risk...??? What age are these kittens being sold? The reason my vets will not spey younger than 6 months is because of the effects of anesthetic on small kittens... surely putting a kitten at risk like that is pretty bad? and for what reason, why do they not want their kittens bred from?


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Just to say i'm well aware that some registered, all above board breeds are a mix from other breeds. I was on about Natural breeds such as the Norwegians, Maine Coons, Siberians ect. But never the less I would'nt get say a Siamese and breed it with any of the above. *


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

I am with Helz on this one (to a certain extent). 

I can see why a breeder of a pedigree line would not want 'pet designated' kittens cross bred, but, in the end, if they were bred from all that would be produced is a moggie that could not be registered or shown as a ped. 

As far as buyers go, I do think that there is a certain quodos in owning an unusual cat - a designer cat if you want. Most kitten buyers won't want to show and most won't want to breed from the kitten, but may want to boast they have a yyyyy*xxxxxx cross breed.

Also, as has been pointed out, some pedigree breeds are 'pure' - NFC, Maine Coon, but others have originated from cross breeding. So if experimentation in cross breeding is condemned does that mean that there won't be any new recognized breeds?

Also I have read and only partially understood, I admit, the technique that some breeders employ to ensure strengthening of the gene pool in their particular breed. As I understand it (and I might have got the wrong end of the stick) a breeder may introduce a 'foundation' cat into a particular pedigree line. For instance in MCs, a cat that is not a pedigree, but is a 'moggie' that shows the characteristics of a typical MC.

That is cross breeding but for a particular purpose and is very specialised.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

ive seen some recent ads offering a ragdoll x siamese and asking £200 and calling them ragamuffins.....its complete nonsence.......or ragdoll x bsh again called ragamuffins... this business makes me so mad


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

raggs said:


> ive seen some recent ads offering a ragdoll x siamese and asking £200 and calling them ragamuffins.....its complete nonsence.......or ragdoll x bsh again called ragamuffins... this business makes me so mad


An example of my point about 'designer' cats (and cheaper than a ped of either breed).


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

I looked up RagDoll on Wikapedia - now I know that this source isn't always gold standard as it can be edited and added to by anybody, but I thought it made interestig reading as it seemed to me that 'RagDoll' was to all intents and purposes almost produced and marketed as a 'brand' by the original 'founder':



> Some of the original stock consisted of hardy, free-roaming street cats. Ms. Baker created the foundations of the Ragdoll breed by selecting kittens out of Josephine, a semi-feral longhaired white female Persian/Angora type, sired by several unknown male Birman-like or Burmese-like cats, one with Siamese type markings. Out of those early litters came Blackie, an all black Burmese-like male and Daddy Warbucks, a seal point with white feet. Daddy Warbucks sired the founding bi-color female Fugianna, and Blackie sired Buckwheat, a dark brown/black Burmese-like female. Both Fugianna and Buckwheat were daughters of Josephine. All Ragdoll and RagaMuffin cats are descended from Ann Baker's cats through matings of Daddy Warbucks to Fugianna and Buckwheat. By selecting individuals with the look and temperament she wanted for her breeding program, Ann Baker created the standard Ragdoll type.
> 
> Baker, in an unusual move, spurned traditional cat breeding associations. She trademarked the name "Ragdoll," set up her own registry-International Ragdoll Cat Association (IRCA)-and enforced stringent standards on anyone who wanted to breed or sell cats under that name.[4] The Ragdolls were also not allowed to be registered in other breed associations. In 1975, a group broke rank with IRCA with the aim of gaining mainstream recognition for the Ragdoll. This group, which included Denny and Laura Dayton eventually developed the Ragdoll standard currently accepted by major cat registries. The breed was selectively bred over many years for desirable traits, such as large size, gentle demeanor, and a tendency to go limp when picked up, as well as the striking pointed coloration. In 1994, a second group decided to leave the IRCA and form their own group due to increasingly strict breeding restrictions. This group later established the Ragamuffin breed. Keep in mind at this point that the ragdoll has a name that no one could use until Ann Baker's trademark on "Ragdoll" was not renewed by her in 2005.[5] Due to how the ragamuffins are bred (every 5th generation with certain other cats including the ragdoll), they are two distinct breeds of cats. Even though ragamuffins are in-bred with ragdolls to keep a similar ragdoll temperament they may show behavior and physical differences.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Yes, the Ragdoll is a very interesting mix - certainly a bit of cross-breeding there! And Ms Baker was somewhat strange by all accounts.



Janee said:


> I looked up RagDoll on Wikapedia - now I know that this source isn't always gold standard as it can be edited and added to by anybody, but I thought it made interestig reading as it seemed to me that 'RagDoll' was to all intents and purposes almost produced and marketed as a 'brand' by the original 'founder':


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Didnt the origional breeder at one point drown a load of cats???for some reason.or at least threaten to...


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

helz said:


> Okay... let me give a really obscure example of what I mean... lets talk about apples.
> 
> I have 100 apples, I am going to give you one, and tell you, you are not allowed to plant the seeds and make any more apples.
> 
> ...


pedant... but if you plant an apple seed from your apple you won't get the same apple you would get a cross...

oh and (((((BIGHUG))))) *giggle*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> What do you mean?


She's perfectly correct, the Bengal started as a hybrid between the domestic cat and the Asian leopard cat.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> They are origianally alc x domestic shorthair both are cats and the same SPECIES as you call it, both FELINE.


No Jen, sorry, Felis is the genus not the species.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> not sure of the name of the case, or how many there have been but an owner took a breeder to court because they decided they wanted their pet cat on the breeding register and the court forced the breeder to do so.


Really? Do you know any more of the background at all?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> Yeah, I see what your saying, but because some crosses are unhealthy, you cannot possibly say that all are.


All else being equal, a cross is likely to be healthier. It's called hybrid vigour.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

helz said:


> My same question/statment goes to you then Selks, what I cannot get my head round, is why you think they are doing anything to not preserve your breed.
> They are increasing the amount of moggies and not decreasing the amount of peds.


I have to agree. If the cat they bought was on the non-active register then it could not have been used to breed registered pedigrees anyway. On the other hand if it was on the active register then it is hard to imagine that anyone would deliberately use the cat to crossbreed with a different breed when they could get more money from using a stud of the same breed. 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> There seems to be a lot of people selling british shorthairs un reg too, probably bred from pet quality cats, most of them dont even look like a british


In some of these cases I think the owners are genuinely confused and use the term "British shorthair" to mean "domestic shorthair" ie. Moggy.

Liz


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## ErbslinTrouble (Sep 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> I have to agree. If the cat they bought was on the non-active register then it could not have been used to breed registered pedigrees anyway. On the other hand if it was on the active register then it is hard to imagine that anyone would deliberately use the cat to crossbreed with a different breed when they could get more money from using a stud of the same breed.
> 
> Liz


why would they pay the £500 for a stud when they could just use ol' tom from down the lane! or even better their new un neutered moggie that they got from the kitty mill down the lane next to the puppy mill man? for NOTHING! then turn a profit! shoot! ££££

lol


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I've just gone through all this thread - a bit late at night to get my head round some of it! But I'm wondering if it relates to my problem of having 'silver' in the pedigree of my Siamese. She has orientals in her family tree - is that cross breeding?


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## juelexi (Oct 10, 2008)

why would cross breeding a ped destroy the breed? The ped you bought from the breeder is still the same ped! lol, now you just have some cute little kittens that would other wise not be around, and someone (without a 1000$ to spend on CAT!) can enjoy a kitten that LOOKS like the kind of ped they would want!

honestly people will ALWAYS breed/cross breed there cats... wether intentional or not... especially if there is some money in it.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> why would they pay the £500 for a stud when they could just use ol' tom from down the lane! or even better their new un neutered moggie that they got from the kitty mill down the lane next to the puppy mill man? for NOTHING! then turn a profit! shoot! ££££
> 
> lol


Because you get far far less money for moggy kittens! And most breeds' stud fees are nowhere near £500.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> I've just gone through all this thread - a bit late at night to get my head round some of it! But I'm wondering if it relates to my problem of having 'silver' in the pedigree of my Siamese. She has orientals in her family tree - is that cross breeding?


That is an accepted cross.

Liz


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

this was a Burmese breeder - I had heard about it too.



lizward said:


> Really? Do you know any more of the background at all?
> 
> Liz


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> I've just gone through all this thread - a bit late at night to get my head round some of it! But I'm wondering if it relates to my problem of having 'silver' in the pedigree of my Siamese. She has orientals in her family tree - is that cross breeding?


Siamese purists would have you believe so, but I do not think of a siamese with oriental in his/her pedigree as being a "cross breed" nor vice versa, nor does the GCCF, they are seen as pedigree. Those genuinely "pure" siamese lines tend on the whole to be quite inter bred, so orientals in a line add a bit of hybrid vigour, that's my opinion anyway


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> this was a Burmese breeder - I had heard about it too.


Could you tell us all (without naming names) what actually happened, what the argument was, etc? I mean, if this is how it is, then there is really no point at all in trying to sell entire kittens on the non-active.

Liz


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

lizward said:


> Could you tell us all (without naming names) what actually happened, what the argument was, etc? I mean, if this is how it is, then there is really no point at all in trying to sell entire kittens on the non-active.
> 
> Liz


I will try and find out a bit more about it, but the only thing I would say is, even if this is the way it is, the person with the 'pet' has got to be willing to take the breeder to court, which will obviously be costly, so not every Tom, Dick and Harry will do that.

Slightly different case I know, but didn't Saffron tell us about one not so long ago, where the contract was found to be not legally binding as it had not been written using the correct legal terms???


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

helz said:


> I will try and find out a bit more about it, but the only thing I would say is, even if this is the way it is, the person with the 'pet' has got to be willing to take the breeder to court, which will obviously be costly, so not every Tom, Dick and Harry will do that.
> 
> Slightly different case I know, but didn't Saffron tell us about one not so long ago, where the contract was found to be not legally binding as it had not been written using the correct legal terms???


There is a downloadable 'model agreement' now on the GCCF site which I think has actually been drafted by their solicitors to make sure it is properly worded?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I remember reading about the case on another group, and I am sure the crux of the matter was that the conversation about the difference between non active and active etc was just that a conversation. The purchaser was a solicitor and claimed that she had never been fully appraised about the basis of sale, and as there was no proof she won. Surely no matter how it is worded, if you have a contract that explains that the cat is on the non active register and what that means, and that is signed by both parties, then that document acts as proof that the purchaser did understand that the kitten was purchased on a non active basis.


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## binxycat (Mar 15, 2008)

ErbslinTrouble said:


> don't you ever wonder why you fancy someone? do you seriously believe it's just their personality or aesthetics? surely its how they adapt to things in life and how they handle danger and how strong they are and how healthy they are? you're choosing someone to procreate with! surely you want the fittest of the fit no? and we do see with over breeding the effects of crossing unhealthy genes causes birth defects and deaths.


I just plain fancied the pants off my Oh from across a crowded bar.


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