# Regular upset stomach



## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Since we rehomed pickles over a year ago (age two) he has had fairly regular diarrhoea. We Initally thought this was linked to feeding him half dry Arden grange and forth glade wet food. We stopped the wet food and didn't have an upset stomach for almost 2 months. Over Christmas, he had severe diarrhoea, including mucus and blood - we think linked to worms and the tablets. The vet suggested it was colitis and have him tablets and pro kolin. This cleared up his stomach immediately. On Wednesday of this week he had diarrhoea. I starved him over night, then he did a completely normal poo on Thursday morning. I have his white fish and rice Thursday evening, then did a small but normal poo this morning. Having thought he was better, gave him half his normal dry food and we are back to full on diarrhoea again.

Vets appointment booked tomorrow 11am. Any thoughts on what can cause such instant diarrhoea and then back to normal the next day? I've fed him fish and rice tonight so he will give us a fresh stool sample at vets tomorrow. I am going to ask for them to test worms and giardia- should I ask for anything else?

Thanks


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Once the tummy is upset it's always advisable to keep them on a bland diet for about 3 days after it clears. Not only has the diarrhea to stop, but the lining of the stomach will be inflamed and needs to settle too. 

It does sound as if Pickles has a very sensitive tum and any little thing could tip it into spasm. 

Does he occasionally pick things up on walks or get tiny treats at home or eat something (maybe dropped by birds) in the garden?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

If the food has rice or other cereals, try cereal free. If that doesn't work try a different protein source such as venison or rabbit.

If you haven't had a campylobacter test, get one of those too.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I think we are going to get the vet to confirm/rule out any bacterial or worm reasons for diarrhea tomorrow and then look at his diet.

He doesn't get many treats at home- only natural things like carrot, cheese or chicken left overs. He does however 'snuffle' a lot when out. He loves sniffing and can pick things up when off lead. I have joked we should put a muzzle on him to stop!

I've given him fish and rice tonight and will get some chicken to boil for the next few days. I am actually halt considering a raw diet as this is something we've been considering for a while.

Thank you for your replies


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Have you used chicken before to settle this?

My boy can have one meal of chicken but any more than that and he has an upset tum 

I always have to use white fish


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I used chicken at Xmas when he was ill. Perhaps I'll stick to fish (its cheaper anyway!)


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Hopefully it's nothing too worry about. A vet check will put your mind at rest.

I had a similar situation with Heidi. An upset left her tummy sensitive and whenever I tried to put her back onto kibble, it would recurr. Initially when she was only partly weaned back onto it and when she was on it 100%, it would recurr at regular intervals.

Kibble is much harder to digest and more likely to be the problem than Forthglade I would think. Once I put Heidi onto wet food along with Bionic Biotics supplement it was sorted. Prior to that I was back at the vets for my meds and making things worse trying lots of different kibbles.

Chappie original is great for upset tums. May be an idea to wean her onto that after her bland diet and keep her on it until her tum hardens up a bit.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

What wet food did you use mum2heidi? They said he was fine on kibble before we got him, but am happy to change to whatever food suits him! I just feel sorry for him as he's his normal self, typical bouncy lab and doesn't understand why he keep setting starved!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> What wet food did you use mum2heidi? They said he was fine on kibble before we got him, but am happy to change to whatever food suits him! I just feel sorry for him as he's his normal self, typical bouncy lab and doesn't understand why he keep setting starved!


You really do need to find what suits him and stick to it. What works for one doesn't always work for another.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

rona said:


> You really do need to find what suits him and stick to it. What works for one doesn't always work for another.


I agree, but I am not sure Arden grange is suitable. It is quite possible it irritates him, rather than the wet food he was on before. I asked because then I can research different foods and perhaps consider that we need to change his diet.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

How is he on fish? You could try Arden grange sensitive dry or wet.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> What wet food did you use mum2heidi? They said he was fine on kibble before we got him, but am happy to change to whatever food suits him! I just feel sorry for him as he's his normal self, typical bouncy lab and doesn't understand why he keep setting starved!


I used Wainwrights wet trays but it was a while ago and they've changed. Forthglade make them and is probably just as good these days. Naturediet is another good food altho Heidi never did as well on it.
Good old tinned Chappie original is all some dogs with sensitive tums can tolerate. Worked for Heidi before I changed to WW. I wouldnt have changed but the cereal in the Chappie made her itch.

Keep changing food wont help the situation. It made Heidi worse but you have to change to find something suitable. Darned it you do and if you dont!

Ness at Arden Grange is v helpful. She would probably suggest their Partners Sensitive wet food.

Sorry if I've confused you but dogs are all different and there is no set rule of thumb.

Plenty of suggestions for you to look at. I hope you soon get it sorted (Bionic Biotics is v good!)


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Thank you. I shall see what the vets says and then if he gets the ok, try some probiotics to see if they help. I shall keep a list of other foods to try if not.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Thank you. I shall see what the vets says and then if he gets the ok, try some probiotics to see if they help. I shall keep a list of other foods to try if not.


The most important thing when you are trying food is to just feed that food, no treats, no tidbits and no scavenging. It's the only true way to see if a food works


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Our dog used to suffer pancreatitis which caused diarrhoea and we changed her food to Burns Penlan wet and added Bionic Biotics and we haven't looked back since. Try the Bionic Biotics, it should start working pretty quickly.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Visit to vets this morning. Gave them stool sample and results will be here on Wednesday. They are checking for any parasites etc.

She gave us a course of worming tablets to check that is completely sorted after he had them before Xmas. I've been to pets at home and bought some bionic biotics. We are feeding him small amounts of fish and rice and gave him some of the biotics on his lunch just now.

We are going to stick with Arden grange for now and see what the results say and try to help him with the biotics. I don't want to change too much after your advice!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Results came back clear, so no parasites in his stomach. Since Saturday we've given him rice and fish until Wednesday when I introduced about 1/6 kibble. We are now back to half kibble and half fish and he stomach his fine and back to normal 

The bionic biotics seem to be helping, so will see how he goes. Incidentally we remembered that on the Sunday before he was ill we had a roast chicken and have him scraps on Sunday and Monday. By Wednesday he was ill- so I suspect he may have an allergy to chicken or its too rich. Anyhow, chicken is banned from his diet.


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## winter (Dec 16, 2012)

Glad he's alot better.
My current gsd kept getting bouts of diarrhoea and allergy tests showed him to be allergic to chicken and beef so I changed his diet and put him on grain free food and he hasn't had diarrhoea since.
Denes digest aid is good for diarrhoea as well.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Results came back clear, so no parasites in his stomach. Since Saturday we've given him rice and fish until Wednesday when I introduced about 1/6 kibble. We are now back to half kibble and half fish and he stomach his fine and back to normal
> 
> The bionic biotics seem to be helping, so will see how he goes. Incidentally we remembered that on the Sunday before he was ill we had a roast chicken and have him scraps on Sunday and Monday. By Wednesday he was ill- so I suspect he may have an allergy to chicken or its too rich. Anyhow, chicken is banned from his diet.


I have a 12 yr old bitch who has suffered from food intolerance most of her life.

The food which suited her best, apart from hydrolised single source protein veterinary diets, was Arden Grange ocean white fish and potato sensitive.

Ness Bird, the vet/nutritionist at AG would send you a sample if you email her or you could purchase a 2kg bag for about £8.00 to try.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

After leaving him with rice and fish for five days we slowly introduced the Ag lamb and rice kibble. He was fine with a mix of fish and rice and kibble but had a bit of an upset stomach on Sunday, so we've gone back to rice and fish. AG sensitive just ordered (2kg) bag so will slowly introduce that as vet said he would be better to change food protein rather than brand.

I think we will move from fish and rice to kibble very slowly to give him tum plenty of time to adjust.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> After leaving him with rice and fish for five days we slowly introduced the Ag lamb and rice kibble. He was fine with a mix of fish and rice and kibble but had a bit of an upset stomach on Sunday, so we've gone back to rice and fish. AG sensitive just ordered (2kg) bag so will slowly introduce that as vet said he would be better to change food protein rather than brand.
> 
> I think we will move from fish and rice to kibble very slowly to give him tum plenty of time to adjust.


You will probably find you need to soak the kibble to make it easier for him to digest. Sometimes that doesnt work. It didnt for Heidi. I had to resort to wet food for her tum to get properly better.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

How's the tum holding up?


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Since Saturday he's been having white fish and rice and been fine. I gave him a few of the Arden grange sensitive biscuits with his dinner last night and just now for breakfast. We will do this until Saturday and if hes ok, up the kibble amount to about 1/6 of his normal amount. We are going very slowly and hope we can sort it this time! Shame we have two full bags of lamb and rice sitting in our dining room!


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## bay20 (Aug 14, 2013)

I hope the Arden grange sensitive works for you. We had a year of consistent recurring poorly tim with our dog and this is the first food that seems to agree with him. 8 week on and he's been great on it. You say you joked about a muzzle but that's the route we've had to take with ours as he to shuffles and picks up anything he can find. All the bet hope it works out for you


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Since Saturday he's been having white fish and rice and been fine. I gave him a few of the Arden grange sensitive biscuits with his dinner last night and just now for breakfast. We will do this until Saturday and if hes ok, up the kibble amount to about 1/6 of his normal amount. We are going very slowly and hope we can sort it this time! *Shame we have two full bags of lamb and rice sitting in our dining room!*




You could always sell it on Ebay - buyer collects.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> [/B]
> 
> You could always sell it on Ebay - buyer collects.


Or donate to your local rescue


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Another set back- he has had an upset again just now. He has been fine and back to normal on fish and rice and a small amount of AG sensitive. He was fine this morning. We had been cutting out all other treats, but my sister gave him a different biscuit about 1 o'clock today (harringtons I think)- supposed to improve his smelly breath and by the time I returned home 2 and half hours later he had pooped on kitchen floor. 

Could a small biscuit really do this much damage?


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Another set back- he has had an upset again just now. He has been fine and back to normal on fish and rice and a small amount of AG sensitive. He was fine this morning. We had been cutting out all other treats, but my sister gave him a different biscuit about 1 o'clock today (harringtons I think)- supposed to improve his smelly breath and by the time I returned home 2 and half hours later he had pooped on kitchen floor.
> 
> Could a small biscuit really do this much damage?


Yes it could. My bitch with food intolerance doesn't get any tit-bits, dog chews, etc. because they would give her raging diarrheoa.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

He is still poorly today so have given him some pro-kolin. His poop has become mucusy with small amounts of blood- looking like the colitis he had at Christmas.

He seemed to be doing well on fish and rice, is there any harm in giving this to him all the time? The only thing that is frustrating is the time taken to cook it. Does rice have to be cooked fresh or do you think I could cook a batch in advance and give it a zap in microwave to kill any bugs?

We want to stabilise him again (he went almost 2 weeks with one day diarrhoea) so will be feeding just fish and rice and the bionics for some time.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Another set back- he has had an upset again just now. He has been fine and back to normal on fish and rice and a small amount of AG sensitive. He was fine this morning. We had been cutting out all other treats, but my sister gave him a different biscuit about 1 o'clock today (harringtons I think)- supposed to improve his smelly breath and by the time I returned home 2 and half hours later he had pooped on kitchen floor.
> 
> Could a small biscuit really do this much damage?


One small biscuit could have done it yes  
Try and find out exactly what it was and try and find out the ingredients. It could help in the future to know what to avoid



Dubuss said:


> He is still poorly today so have given him some pro-kolin. His poop has become mucusy with small amounts of blood- looking like the colitis he had at Christmas.
> 
> He seemed to be doing well on fish and rice, is there any harm in giving this to him all the time? The only thing that is frustrating is the time taken to cook it. Does rice have to be cooked fresh or do you think I could cook a batch in advance and give it a zap in microwave to kill any bugs?
> 
> We want to stabilise him again (he went almost 2 weeks with one day diarrhoea) so will be feeding just fish and rice and the bionics for some time.


Fish and rice is not a balanced diet as far as I know. If you find that it is the only thing that works then you will probably have to add supplements.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

rona said:


> One small biscuit could have done it yes
> Try and find out exactly what it was and try and find out the ingredients. It could help in the future to know .


It was a harringtons dental biscuit and the second or third ingredient is poultry so that goes back to our thinking of chicken allergy.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> He is still poorly today so have given him some pro-kolin. His poop has become mucusy with small amounts of blood- looking like the colitis he had at Christmas.
> 
> He seemed to be doing well on fish and rice, is there any harm in giving this to him all the time? The only thing that is frustrating is the time taken to cook it. Does rice have to be cooked fresh or do you think I could cook a batch in advance and give it a zap in microwave to kill any bugs?
> 
> We want to stabilise him again (he went almost 2 weeks with one day diarrhoea) so will be feeding just fish and rice and the bionics for some time.


I feel for you. It's a nightmare trying to stabilise them.

I would think you could probably keep him on the fish and rice for about two weeks but I don't know whether he would be getting all the nutrients he needs to feed it to him permanently. It might also be a good idea to add a green vegetable; something like runner beans. Do it very gradually though.

When I contacted the Natural Dog Food Company two/three years ago, I was told to put Leafy on brown rice, fish and a green vegetable for two weeks and if she was OK to then gradually change her onto their sensitive food.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> It was a harringtons dental biscuit and the second or third ingredient is poultry so that goes back to our thinking of chicken allergy.


Well, I hope you've given your sister a good talking too?


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Thank you for your replies. What about peas? I can chuck them in with the rice boiling and just add in a few to start with.

We are just feeling so frustrated that we seem to start making progress and then it goes wrong again. He is normal in himself still and wanting to eat at least.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Thank you for your replies. What about peas? I can chuck them in with the rice boiling and just add in a few to start with.
> 
> We are just feeling so frustrated that we seem to start making progress and then it goes wrong again. He is normal in himself still and wanting to eat at least.


If it was just the biscuit, then I'd be tempted to return to what you were doing, once you've got the tum under control again


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## lisaslovelys (Jun 7, 2013)

Does wet food upset his tummy as well ? I don't think that just fish and rice have enough nutritional value for him to have it indefinately ..


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Could/should we add some yoghurt in to his diet or does the bionic biotics do the same?


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

lisaslovelys said:


> Does wet food upset his tummy as well ? I don't think that just fish and rice have enough nutritional value for him to have it indefinately ..


Not sure about wet food really. We did feed him forth glade back last year and he seemed off with the fish version but ok on the tripe one. He got intermittent diarrhea around this time and assumed it was the wet food. However, it's quite possible it was the start of his intolerance towards the kibble? It's just too difficult to pinpoint what's wrong. Since we have the AG sensitive I think we will keep giving him small portions of that in his fish and rice and see how it goes on we get him back on track in the next few days. How long should we trial a new food for without any other treats? I am now keeping a diary to try to keep track of what we are doing and when he is getting ill too.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Not sure about wet food really. We did feed him forth glade back last year and he seemed off with the fish version but ok on the tripe one. He got intermittent diarrhea around this time and assumed it was the wet food. However, it's quite possible it was the start of his intolerance towards the kibble? It's just too difficult to pinpoint what's wrong. Since we have the AG sensitive I think we will keep giving him small portions of that in his fish and rice and see how it goes on we get him back on track in the next few days. How long should we trial a new food for without any other treats? I am now keeping a diary to try to keep track of what we are doing and when he is getting ill too.


Personally, with all the trouble you've had, I wouldn't worry about treats for a very very long time.
If the AG seems ok after a month or two, I'd use that as treats

Dogs don't need treats


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

rona said:


> Personally, with all the trouble you've had, I wouldn't worry about treats for a very very long time.
> If the AG seems ok after a month or two, I'd use that as treats
> 
> Dogs don't need treats


Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear- I meant just giving him kibble and nothing else at all to check his allergies as we really need to trial one food!


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear- I meant just giving him kibble and nothing else at all to check his allergies as we really need to trial one food!


Personally I keep him on the fish and rice for a week and then gradually (and I mean very, very gradually) start adding the AG Sensitive.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

An update- we ended back up at the vets Thursday before last as the pro kolin wasn't helping much and got the same tablets as last time. He's been on fish and rice for a week and we've just started adding in a few AG sensitive biscuits. I've put hot water on the biscuits and mashed them up, so will see how he goes. He was starting to look very slim but he's put it back in now mostly after a week of improved stools.

We sent another stool sample off , this time collecting from 3 stools to check in case something is in his body and not coming out every time. Results should be back any day now.

I do wonder if he has worms again, nothing obvious in his poo, but it's rather orange like last time. What makes their stools orange and mucusy other than worms?


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## kristianr12 (Feb 26, 2014)

My little Cocker Spaniels are constantly coming down with tummy problems. A few spoonfuls of plain pumpkin seems to help settle things and help with loose stools.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Oops - repeated previous post


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> An update- we ended back up at the vets Thursday before last as the pro kolin wasn't helping much and got the same tablets as last time. He's been on fish and rice for a week and we've just started adding in a few AG sensitive biscuits. I've put hot water on the biscuits and mashed them up, so will see how he goes. He was starting to look very slim but he's put it back in now mostly after a week of improved stools.
> 
> We sent another stool sample off , this time collecting from 3 stools to check in case something is in his body and not coming out every time. Results should be back any day now.
> 
> I do wonder if he has worms again, nothing obvious in his poo, but it's rather orange like last time. What makes their stools orange and mucusy other than worms?


Its better if they do a three day faecal 3 samples on 3 consecutive days, as there is less chance of missing anything, even if you had one before there is a chance something might have been missed.

It might not be just worms there are whats called protozoan parasites like coccidian and giardia, and that will cause ongoing diarrhoea, you can also get persistent bacterial infections like campylobacter that needs a more prolonged course and specific antibiotics to shift it completely.

Giardia and coccidia can make the stools yellow/orange, bacteria will sometimes and also bile, and even things like malabsorption of certain things in the diet. See how you go with the 3 day fecal hopefully they will show something, if not there are blood tests for general over all health and to make sure everythings working as it should and there are also gut condition specific ones you can have done to check how that's working and to look for specific causes/problems.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh poor wee button - you just feel so sorry for them don't you

Fingers crossed you get a diet sorted for him soon

Maisie has colitis and it took ages to get her tum stabilised when I got her - pleased to say she's pretty good now  she's fine with a fish & rice kibble (soaked) and is having turkey & rice or chicken & rice wainwrights wet mixed

I did try a few different wets recently & tried fish & potato kibble but she started to itch badly (instead of the upset tummy) so its back to basics for us

Fingers crossed she does pretty well - she had the most useful tum last week but I'm pretty sure that was down to something she picked up and ate rather than her main diet

Good luck - its very frustrating but you will find something that works for him

I also added pro fibre Protexin Pro Fibre For Dogs 500g - Animed Direct for a long time & am positive this helped as its got good bacteria's etc which help the gut work better


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Its better if they do a three day faecal 3 samples on 3 consecutive days, as there is less chance of missing anything, even if you had one before there is a chance something might have been missed.
> 
> It might not be just worms there are whats called protozoan parasites like coccidian and giardia, and that will cause ongoing diarrhoea, you can also get persistent bacterial infections like campylobacter that needs a more prolonged course and specific antibiotics to shift it completely.
> 
> Giardia and coccidia can make the stools yellow/orange, bacteria will sometimes and also bile, and even things like malabsorption of certain things in the diet. See how you go with the 3 day fecal hopefully they will show something, if not there are blood tests for general over all health and to make sure everythings working as it should and there are also gut condition specific ones you can have done to check how that's working and to look for specific causes/problems.


Worm Count | Wormcount.com will test for coccidian and giardia if you request it.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

£8 is certainly cheaper than making a vets appointment! I phoned them this morning and the results aren't back yet, mainly because I got confused. Last time they came back in 2 days because they did a simple test. This time they are doing an expanded check and growing the culture from what I understood and takes 5-7 days so should know by Tuesday or Wednesday. I hope it shows something so we know what it is rather than it being his diet and trying to eliminate different foods


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> £8 is certainly cheaper than making a vets appointment! I phoned them this morning and the results aren't back yet, mainly because I got confused. Last time they came back in 2 days because they did a simple test. This time they are doing an expanded check and growing the culture from what I understood and takes 5-7 days so should know by Tuesday or Wednesday. I hope it shows something so we know what it is rather than it being his diet and trying to eliminate different foods


It sounds like they didn't do the culture last time and just checked for parasites, but even then on just one sample things can sometimes be missed.
For bacteria and things like yeasts too, they have to do a culture to allow any bacteria to grow and if it does they can then identify also the specific bacteria so if it is present then the right and a long enough course of antibiotics can be prescribed. Things like campylobacter I mentioned before needs a prolonged course to make sure its completely eradicated. Its worth doing the full test and culture because if there is anything underlying then you could be chopping and changing food forever and not getting anywhere.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

After a few days of AG sensitive (10- 15 biscuits at most) we have an upset tum and blood. Grrr so frustrating!!

1) He's had a really bad tum since we think he had worms in dec, so he may have that but we won't know until results come back

2) he has something else bacterial which is as above

3) he is ok on kibble for a few days and then it all gets too much. I think the kibble is the issue, either on its own or alongside 1) & 2). Since his first bout of colitis, his stomach/intestines can't deal wih kibble despite being soaked down.

I am going to give him fish and rice for a few days to stabilise him and then try a wet food. Either chappie as I know it's recommended for sore tums- but hating the ingredients, either forthade or similar.

Thoughts on a wet food? Should I definitely stabilise him (just one lot of diarrhoea ) or try adding in something wet to rice and rice straight away?

Thank you, your help has been invaluable.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh dear  so sorry to hear he's got an upset tum again

You need to find a 'base' food that he's fine with an you know doesn't upset him tum - say the fish & rice

He needs to be on this - IMHO - at least 2 weeks & have a totally stable tum with no upsets in that time before you even think of trying / adding something else 

When you do, it needs to be 1 thing only. Again, feed this (with the fish & rice) for a couple of weeks (providing tum stays ok) and, if everything's still OK, you go back to the bland food and then try something else (again just one extra thing & the fish & rice) and see how that pans out

Any upsets, straight back to the fish & rice and discount the other thing added to it - wait at least another couple of weeks until tum's stable again and try something else

This really is the only way of building up a few different foods and finding out what he can / can't tolerate

It takes a long time, is very frustrating  but you will find something he can tolerate & do well with


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> Oh dear  so sorry to hear he's got an upset tum again
> 
> You need to find a 'base' food that he's fine with an you know doesn't upset him tum - say the fish & rice
> 
> ...


Great advice, thank you. I just feel so frustrated and rubbish at the whole thing to be honest


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> After a few days of AG sensitive (10- 15 biscuits at most) we have an upset tum and blood. Grrr so frustrating!!
> 
> 1) He's had a really bad tum since we think he had worms in dec, so he may have that but we won't know until results come back
> 
> ...


Chappie has been known to sort a lot of dogs out. In fact years ago before all the prescription diets vets used to actually recommend either chappie wet or the good old skinless chicken and rice, or fish and rice.

Mine do well on the Natures menu tinned, they do a chicken and vegetable too with no grains, and have just bought out a grain free tinned range that I want to try too. Pets at home do the Natures Menu tinned range, but as yet haven't got the Country Hunter grain free in yet or hadn't last time I looked. The pet shop who orders my Natures menu tins for me, hasn't been able to get the Country Hunter Grain free as yet, But I think its because his relevant supplier has been out of stock for the last couple of weeks.

If you want to have a look at Natures Menu see Link. I tried their pouches though and mine don't seem to like the texture.

Pets at home have a large Natural section of wet food now, that's separate to the other normal wet section or mine does I should imagine that they have the same format. There was another I was looking at think its called fishmongers finest that contains things like white fish and potato no grains that looked quite good.
Might be worth trying him on something like that, especialy if he does well on home cooked chicken or fish.

As mentioned though, if there is an underlying problem then it may not make a difference.

http://www.naturesmenu.co.uk/category-cans--pouches.aspx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

It took me around 4 months to get Maisie's tum settled & find a combination of foods that she's OK with - it is a long haul I'm afraid BUT it's soooooo not worth trying to rush things or you do just end up with them having another upset tum and being back at the beginning again


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## Buddybudweiser (Jun 1, 2013)

Buddy spent the best part of his first 6 months of his life back and forth from the vets with various tummy issues and tests being taken weekly. In the end we decided it had to be chicken related and moved him onto JWB lamb and rice. whist he hasn't been perfect since and regularly has very loose stools, he has at least put on some weight and appears relatively healthy. we do give him Pro kolin regularly and that helps. sometimes i think we probably over react a bit through worry and perhaps have to accept the odd bout?!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Buddybudweiser said:


> Buddy spent the best part of his first 6 months of his life back and forth from the vets with various tummy issues and tests being taken weekly. In the end we decided it had to be chicken related and moved him onto JWB lamb and rice. whist he hasn't been perfect since and regularly has very loose stools, he has at least put on some weight and appears relatively healthy. we do give him Pro kolin regularly and that helps. sometimes i think we probably over react a bit through worry and perhaps have to accept the odd bout?!


Yes- he's always had a delicate tum really. Maybe once a month he'd get an upset tum. To be honest, I'd be happy with that right now since we can't go from week to week without an incident!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

To make things even worse, he's just been sick. In all his time, it's all been from his bum end and he's never been sick. Up came his breakfast, whole bits of rice and brown kibble  this is such a worry. He's been fine all morning and had been pestering me for his walk. Maybe he picked something up but he stayed close as he loves his ball.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> To make things even worse, he's just been sick. In all his time, it's all been from his bum end and he's never been sick. Up came his breakfast, whole bits of rice and brown kibble  this is such a worry. He's been fine all morning and had been pestering me for his walk. Maybe he picked something up but he stayed close as he loves his ball.


There does seem to be a lot of sickness and/or diarrhoea bugs going about, these have all had one recently, and when I was talking to my vet last week when I phoned to discuss Nans thyroid results when they were back, he said they have seen loads of it, most dogs are otherwise well, but sickness and or diarrhoea that seems persistent in some cases. So possible he has picked up a bug.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

We starved him Sunday night as he'd been sick, then fed small amount of fish and rice Monday morning and since he kept that down, in the evening and today. He did an ok poop this lunchtime on his walk but not great this evening. Orangey, bit bloody and almost a bit like angel delight?

Vets came back with culture negative of any bacterial or worm type infections. They are keen to do a blood test to rule out anything like EPI, which from looking online all seems a bit scary- but I suppose he has a few of the symptoms, like he has symptoms of a food allergy! We are taking him back in tomorrow to do this. How much might it cost? We may consider claiming from pet plan as this is getting expensive! We considered not bothering with a blood test but I guess at least we can then rule out anything medical and just concentrate on lifestyle reasons eg. Diet, where he's walking


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Fingers crossed you get an answer soon - I don't think you've got anything to lose by having the tests done - at least it would rule out anything medical (fingers crossed) as you say

Personally, I would claim if it's getting to the expensive point - I've never bothered if it's been say a couple of hundred in total (as I'm conscious that some insurers will hike prices after a claim - thankfully PetPlan don't seem to be one of them) - and, even if you don't claim, it would still be an excluded condition should you change insurers so you might as well get everything ruled out now... if that makes sense?


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Blood tests came back. All seemed fine, no signs of sibo or EPI. One marker was just outside the normal range, but nothing to raise huge concerns. Vet has given antibiotic, rather than anti-inflammatory, which he's been having since last Wednesday. He's been ok since, although stools are bright yellow now! I guess side effect of meds? Since been on fish and rice. We are going to continue this until it's been a week off tablets (about 2 weeks time ) and if all ok, try the naturediet fish wet food and see how it goes


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Great news the results are OK & fingers crossed he continues to do well


Wishing you luck with the fish wet foods - Maisie would just about take my arm off for them she loves them so much  BUT I'm afraid I just can't stomach the smell  (prob OK if you're using the whole tub/tray at once - but not to put in the fridge for later on!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

In that case ill be turning the fridge in garage on and it can go out there!!


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## Yorkiemorkiemum (Jun 14, 2012)

Had the same issues with my Yorkie Sammy. He has always had a funny tummy but settled on half Royal Canin half boiled chicken breast. Then when my Morkie took ill with meningitis I wanted to get them on a more balanced diet. So I tried Simpsons sensitive, he would touch it. So back to Royal Canin and I gave Natures Diet but he wouldn't touch the sensitive as it had fish in it ( he hates fish) then he would only eat the turkey and rabbit. Then they both wouldn't touch it and I was told to add a tiny bit of warm water to it to make it smell better. They eat it but both ended up with terrible diahorea, then I found bits of rubber in the natures diet so changed their wet food to Wainwrights and as the grain free was recommended I bought that. Unfortunately, this has loads of peas in it and he begrudgingly eat it but only a little ever since he has had diahorea and vomiting and the vet thing he may have had pancreatitis and the food is too rich. So back to boiled chicken only until his tummy settles down and I've been told to ignore all the advise and listen to my dog. It's about what suits him I gather! I'm also concerned that some people are talking about putting a dog with a sensitive tummy on Chappie? Have you seen the which report on chappie?
It's got more junk in it than anything!
,


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Exactly why I am apprehensive about chappie! The ingredients sound awful. However pickles has lost almost 3kg since Christmas due to ongoing diarrhoea that I am willing to try anything to fatten him up a bit 

Have you tried forth glade trays? Pickles had then last year but we stopped as we thought thy were making him ill, when it was more likely to be the kibble. Pickles really likes them and I think we may well try them again with the issues surrounding natures diet and plastic? I can't remember if there were peas in them though.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Don't knock tinned Chappie. Yes, the ingredients look rubbish, but there's just something about it that works for an awful lot of dogs with dodgy tums.

Be prepared for elephant poos though.

My old boy used to go twice a day, regular as clockwork when he was on the Royal Canin Sensitivity Control (despite the awful looking ingredients), but was going between 4 and 6 times a day when he had to move onto just tinned Chappie, and I swear the volume was larger coming out than what was going in.


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## Yorkiemorkiemum (Jun 14, 2012)

You know I beginning to think your right! What we think of good isn't always is it? The natures diet on paper looks one of the best but they didn't put the bits of various gunk that leaks into it on the ingredients list did they? LOL! My sister had to feed one of her GSHds on Chappie as anything else made his fur fall out! A few of the staff at my vet feed chappie to their large dogs, much to our vets despair, as nothing else suits. I've been feeding Sammy Royal Canin for years and it was the amount of boiled chicken I fed him that gave him runny poo. My fed said yesterday that whilst it's good to try to give them the best everything has it's price and these companies are trying to make as much money as possible.
I will take a look at those trays and see what's in them even of its for Denzil's fussy nose! Thanks for that!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Exactly why I am apprehensive about chappie! The ingredients sound awful. However pickles has lost almost 3kg since Christmas due to ongoing diarrhoea that I am willing to try anything to fatten him up a bit
> 
> Have you tried forth glade trays? Pickles had then last year but we stopped as we thought thy were making him ill, when it was more likely to be the kibble. Pickles really likes them and I think we may well try them again with the issues surrounding natures diet and plastic? I can't remember if there were peas in them though.


Im sorry your dogs been so ill - Re the Chappie I wouldnt worry to much in the short term.

I had Millie on it for a few weeks over Christmas time as she had a bug of sorts.

Was the only thing she could keep in.

Its not great nutritionally but it is bland which enabled her to cope with it. and enabled me to move her onto a wet food I was happier to feed. You could then slowly introduce a new food over a couple of weeks.

I was abit hesitant to move my dog to 100% wet but I wouldnt go back to kibble now - She love sher food and she is looking great on it.

I feed Natures Menu Tins mainly at present:

Cans & Pouches - Natural dog food

It has a nice consistency - its not wet its more of a pate and you can see all the ingredients. Its steam cooked within the can which also appealed to me ie they try to do minimal processing.

I do feed NatureDiet to but I prefer Natures Menue as the NAturediet does look more heavily processed - ie more smooth and you can see veg etc inthere so much like in Natures Menu.

I tend to swicth between the two - It depends which I can get cheaper 

Hope you manage to find a food which suits soon.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Yorkiemorkiemum said:


> Had the same issues with my Yorkie Sammy. He has always had a funny tummy but settled on half Royal Canin half boiled chicken breast. Then when my Morkie took ill with meningitis I wanted to get them on a more balanced diet. So I tried Simpsons sensitive, he would touch it. So back to Royal Canin and I gave Natures Diet but he wouldn't touch the sensitive as it had fish in it ( he hates fish) then he would only eat the turkey and rabbit. Then they both wouldn't touch it and I was told to add a tiny bit of warm water to it to make it smell better. They eat it but both ended up with terrible diahorea, then I found bits of rubber in the natures diet so changed their wet food to Wainwrights and as the grain free was recommended I bought that. Unfortunately, this has loads of peas in it and he begrudgingly eat it but only a little ever since he has had diahorea and vomiting and the vet thing he may have had pancreatitis and the food is too rich. So back to boiled chicken only until his tummy settles down and I've been told to ignore all the advise and listen to my dog. It's about what suits him I gather! I'm also concerned that some people are talking about putting a dog with a sensitive tummy on Chappie? Have you seen the which report on chappie?
> It's got more junk in it than anything!
> ,


Well don't be concerned for Me for using chappie as I'm more than happy to use it....as are many more here are

I've alway's got chappie origanal tins in the cupboard for those upset tum day's


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Another vote here for Chappie.

It's all some dogs can eat.

Great for upset tums, sometimes where all else fails. 
The ingredients aren't the best but if it's the only food your dog can tolerate, there's no option. 

Not one that I would choose to feed long term but it has it's place and should be recognised


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Antibiotics finished Friday night. He just done a normal coloured poop for the first time since Christmas!! Wooooo- let's hope the tablets and /or natural yoghurt we've been adding to his food has helped!

Still going slowly - we will wait until the end of the week and try adding small amounts of a wet fish food and see how we go.

In more news the arden grange food we can't give him has been bid on eBay for only £10 less than we paid and still a few days to go!!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

He's been off the tablets for 7 days. Still formed stools although they seem to be getting slowly softer and more orange/yellow. Not sure what to make of this  either way its 17 days so far without an upset tum !

Although he is just still on fish and rice which is soft food I suppose. I don't know whether to keep him on F&R for longer to check he is stable (I worrying slightly his poops are deteriorating again) or try chappie or similar. I am off in 2 weeks time for Easter holidays so am tempted to leave him on F&R until then as I will be off to really monitor him.

I know sometimes I post and no one replies but this a really hand electronic diary of what is happening!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Glad to hear things are going well - I found writing things down really helpful too for keeping an eye on Maisie's tum

Id be tempted to leave things as they are on the F&R just now as to get a real idea of triggers tum must be absolutely stable before trying anything new & it sounds as if you may not be quite sure its stable yet


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> He's been off the tablets for 7 days. Still formed stools although they seem to be getting slowly softer and more orange/yellow. Not sure what to make of this  either way its 17 days so far without an upset tum !
> 
> Although he is just still on fish and rice which is soft food I suppose. I don't know whether to keep him on F&R for longer to check he is stable (I worrying slightly his poops are deteriorating again) or try chappie or similar. I am off in 2 weeks time for Easter holidays so am tempted to leave him on F&R until then as I will be off to really monitor him.
> 
> I know sometimes I post and no one replies but this a really hand electronic diary of what is happening!


If you think they are deteriorating again on food that he has been ok on, it might be the best idea too keep him on it a bit longer. I know you said that the 3 day fecal and EPI test came back normal, but there are other gut specific tests they can do. There is something called a B12/folate, which helps to access how the guts working, and there is an in house test for Pancreatitis if they have it, my vets have the in house snap test, that tells you if its positive or negative, it doesn't tell you to what degree further bloods have to go off for the full test to the lab to run the numbers so to speak. I know with pancreatitis they are not always very ill, you can have mild moderate and severe bouts of it. It can re-occur, some dogs can have a one off acute bout, and you can also get chronic ongoing version. So as there are various severities and re-occurances of it, it doesn't look like there is one cast iron pattern to that. Nanuq recently had the in house test, as they thought that could be what she had, it turned out not to be in the end but that's how I know about it and the different forms.

Just a though too but have the run the general full bloods to check for general health and to see if there are any clues Nan had those all done too.

If he seems to clear up on antibiotics and OK for awhile off them, then it re-occurs on the same food then that would make me a bit suspicious too.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I've just looked at the symptoms of Pancreatitis and don't feel his symptoms really fit. He is not tired, reluctant to eat and doesn't appear to have any form of discomfort. However, I will ask the vet about this and see if they have the test in-house. 

As you say, it is a bit suspicious that the antibiotics seemed to help give him brown stools back, rather than a yellow/orange colour, which I understand to be the bile being able to take the 'goodness' out of the food he is eating? Am I understanding this correctly? I will mention this to the vet when I call later and see what they think.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> I've just looked at the symptoms of Pancreatitis and don't feel his symptoms really fit. He is not tired, reluctant to eat and doesn't appear to have any form of discomfort. However, I will ask the vet about this and see if they have the test in-house.
> 
> As you say, it is a bit suspicious that the antibiotics seemed to help give him brown stools back, rather than a yellow/orange colour, which I understand to be the bile being able to take the 'goodness' out of the food he is eating? Am I understanding this correctly? I will mention this to the vet when I call later and see what they think.


You can get something called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, the small intestine is where all the nutrients are sucked out of the food amongst other things as part of the digestive process, if you have SIBO then that interfers with digestion. I think a B12/folate is one blood test that can throw up the suspicion as well as check how the digestive system is working in general.

There are persistent bacterial infections like campylobacter that take a long and prescise cause of ABs to get on top of which would explain it but as far as Im aware if he has had a 3 day fecal and culture I would assume that it would have showed up or should have. They weren't stupid enough to do the fecal and culture while he was on antibiotics did they, or not long just finished a course? I know when Ive had them done in the past, the vets have given me the sample jar and told me not to start giving the ABs until Ive got the samples as it can throw off the cultures.

Some dogs can have food intolerances, and IBD Irritable bowel syndrome, where things just set off the loose motions and diarrhoea, often things like certain food and stress, so it may just be that.

The only problem though is if there is something that's causing it depending on what health/medical wise I mean then you can be trying foods for ever.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> You can get something called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, the small intestine is where all the nutrients are sucked out of the food amongst other things as part of the digestive process, if you have SIBO then that interfers with digestion. I think a B12/folate is one blood test that can throw up the suspicion as well as check how the digestive system is working in general.
> 
> There are persistent bacterial infections like campylobacter that take a long and prescise cause of ABs to get on top of which would explain it but as far as Im aware if he has had a 3 day fecal and culture I would assume that it would have showed up or should have. They weren't stupid enough to do the fecal and culture while he was on antibiotics did they, or not long just finished a course? I know when Ive had them done in the past, the vets have given me the sample jar and told me not to start giving the ABs until Ive got the samples as it can throw off the cultures.
> 
> ...


He was tested for SIBO/EPI with the previous blood test, which had one marker slightly raised. Think the normal is between 23-30 and he was 30.4. The vet suggested the recurring colitis is suggesting it is from the large intestine, rather than the small.

The stool samples were both done when no tablets were being, or were recently adminstered. They both came back negative, but I do wonder if something like giardia is actually there as I've how difficult it is to see it when screening is being done.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> He was tested for SIBO/EPI with the previous blood test, which had one marker slightly raised. Think the normal is between 23-30 and he was 30.4. The vet suggested the recurring colitis is suggesting it is from the large intestine, rather than the small.
> 
> The stool samples were both done when no tablets were being, or were recently adminstered. They both came back negative, but I do wonder if something like giardia is actually there as I've how difficult it is to see it when screening is being done.


Collitis is usually the large intestine its caused by inflammation. I knew a lot of the causes but in case there was ones I hadn't thought of had a look.

What causes colitis?

The causes of colitis include stress, infections (including Salmonella, Clostridium, and E. coli), and parasites (including, Giardia, Cryptosporidium and whipworms), trauma, allergic colitis and primary inflammatory bowel disease (lymphoplasmacytic, eosinophilic, granulomatous and histiocytic types). Colitis may also occur after ingesting contaminated food, being in contact with infected dogs or after chronic exposure to a wet environment.

Learn the Signs and Treatment of Colitis in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospitals

Whipworms can be a cause too, and apparently they are difficult to find on fecal tests, so might not be the case but as a thought, does his wormer cover whipworms?

In dogs, whipworms are difficult to confirm by fecal floatation testing (this test detects worm eggs and whipworms only periodically release their eggs). It may be prudent to deworm the dog for whipworms and see if the problem resolves. In addition or instead of deworming, a course of metronidazole, sulfasalazine, or tylosin may be prescribed and/or a new diet may be recommended as a trial.

The one that comes from above looks pretty comprehensive and gives a lot of management tips too.

01 Colitis: An FAQ - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

It seems though it can be due to Irritable bowel disease. which has just reminded me of something, Milk thistle is usually used to protect the liver and used to help with liver damage and also useful in epileptic dogs on medication as the meds particularly phenobarbital have an effect on the liver, but I remembered also seeing that its apparently a useful herb in dogs with Irritable bowel syndrome. There is a link all about it below.

MILK THISTLE
Dorwest do milk thistle tablets for cats and dogs.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Pickles had an accident Saturday night. I went to my parents for dinner (OH at work). I left the tub of porridge oats at the back of the counter and when I got in, pickles can got to them. To get to them, he'd even knocked the kettle onto the floor and dented it!

I reckon he ate about 1/4 of a box, maybe up to 1/3. He left the rest, deciding he didn't like them I guess. I waited for an upset tum, but instead we have huge poops (3 per day), but a fairly nice consistency! I wonder if he is missing fibre in his diet, since he's been on fish and rice for 3 months now? Could I add a spoonful of oats to his dinner and breakfast to see if it helps? Should I add them to water first? Any thoughts would be appreciated!


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

Adding oats can't hurt,l would try it soaked first just to make sure he can cope with it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Pickles had an accident Saturday night. I went to my parents for dinner (OH at work). I left the tub of porridge oats at the back of the counter and when I got in, pickles can got to them. To get to them, he'd even knocked the kettle onto the floor and dented it!
> 
> I reckon he ate about 1/4 of a box, maybe up to 1/3. He left the rest, deciding he didn't like them I guess. I waited for an upset tum, but instead we have huge poops (3 per day), but a fairly nice consistency! I wonder if he is missing fibre in his diet, since he's been on fish and rice for 3 months now? Could I add a spoonful of oats to his dinner and breakfast to see if it helps? Should I add them to water first? Any thoughts would be appreciated!


It certainly wouldn't hurt having a trial with fibre. You can actually buy oat bran maybe adding a spoonful or two of that. Protexin who make the pro Kolin for when they have an upset stomach do something called protexin pro-fibre that you can add to their meals too.

Some dog foods do have an amount of oats in them, I think Burns does or did.
As you say you can try adding a couple of spoonfuls of oats even.

A friend of mine sorted her dogs iffy loose poops with something called Nutrifibre I think it was called not even sure they still make that one, but it did the trick on hers when they could find nothing else wrong, so its worth a go.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Certainly worth a try if you've not already done so - Maisie is fine with a few oats but a lot upsets her tum

Might be worth trying something like Prokolin Profibre - Maisie got it for a few months while I was getting her tum sorted & sure it did help


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

He is currently having bionic biotics added to his food- how different is the pro kolin pro fibre or do they essentially do the same thing?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Not tried it - they're probably similar if it's got pro-biotics in?

How long have you been trying it?

Just wondering if it's worth trying something new when you've finished the pack you've got


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## Aloe Vera North Wales (Apr 1, 2014)

How about trying the Aloe Vera Drinking Gel, it is great for any digestive disorders, please feel free to ask any further questions


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Googling aloe Vera for dogs suggests it can be useful for stomach irritations and colitis. I will keep in mind.

However, Pickles has been stable for 4 weeks tomorrow! His stools, whilst are not necessarily 'normal' they haven't really changed in the last 2-3 weeks. To be honest, with a diet of rice and fish for almost 3 months, I'm not sure why I'm expecting them to be like they were! His changed diet will be affecting his stools, but since they haven't really changed we are happy.

We are going to try a wet food Saturday night (assuming there is no change in the next few days) as I will be off for the Easter holidays and can keep an eye on him. Still not sure which food to try - naturediet fish concerns me from the other thread in here. He seems ok on lamb, so might try a lamb based food I found in local pet store as no chicken in it either and ingredients seem natural. We had him on forthglade fish for a while about a year ago and found the 'sloppiness' didn't really agree with him. He is still having natural yoghurt and bionic biotics added to his food, as well as oats!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhhh that's fantastic news! 

Fingers crossed it continues & introducing a wet food sounds good - I know I won't need to say this BUT start with a tiny bit mixed with his fish & rice 

This should be fine frozen in say an ice-cube tray if you're worried about it going off before you can get through the whole tray


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> Ohhhhh that's fantastic news!
> 
> Fingers crossed it continues & introducing a wet food sounds good - I know I won't need to say this BUT start with a tiny bit mixed with his fish & rice
> 
> This should be fine frozen in say an ice-cube tray if you're worried about it going off before you can get through the whole tray


Excellent idea about freezing it! I was wondering what to do about a whole tray which I would be starting off with a tea spoon!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

If you've got a £land near you .....

Food Storage Mini Containers 8 Pack - Storage - Around The Home - Home & Garden

(£world have them too)

I use these for Mia's wet food (the big tins are a lot more economical but she can't get through one herself quick enough - Archie won't touch anything decent)

I freeze in 50g portions (with a little room left in the tub - you could get a bit more if you squashed it down) so may be worth a try if it's successful and you want to build up gradually long term


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Its better if they do a three day faecal 3 samples on 3 consecutive days, as there is less chance of missing anything, even if you had one before there is a chance something might have been missed.
> 
> It might not be just worms there are whats called protozoan parasites like coccidian and giardia, and that will cause ongoing diarrhoea, you can also get persistent bacterial infections like campylobacter that needs a more prolonged course and specific antibiotics to shift it completely.
> 
> Giardia and coccidia can make the stools yellow/orange, bacteria will sometimes and also bile, and even things like malabsorption of certain things in the diet. See how you go with the 3 day fecal hopefully they will show something, if not there are blood tests for general over all health and to make sure everythings working as it should and there are also gut condition specific ones you can have done to check how that's working and to look for specific causes/problems.





GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Worm Count | Wormcount.com will test for coccidian and giardia if you request it.


Thank You SDH and Goldon Retrieverman 

Millie had a funny tummy for a week - Wasnt sure if the Pro Kolin really helped so as she was due it anyway had her Worm Tested and they tested for Giardia / Coccidian to. (She was due a worm test anyways as its been a year since her last one).

Ironicly the night I purchased the test she firmed up 

All tests came back clear to 

So Thank You for reminding me to worm test and realise they can test for other things as well


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

We started the new food Sunday evening. He's been fine since then stool wise, but this morning has an upset stomach. Sorry to be rather graphic, but it's orange, very mucusy and quite large for him. Some of it is formed, just rather squishy. I believe it has to be his food. 

We've been giving Him a spoonful in his breakfast and dinner and when mixed in with everything it's hardly any. Should I keep trying with the food as I've heard that sometimes you need to persist with it as it can be worse before it gets better. Or should I go back to rice and fish to stabilise him again for a few weeks and try something else? so sad after having a good couple of weeks  maybe I should add it in only once per day?

I should add its a lamb based wet tray, just lamb,rice, veg in it


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

Have you had any allergy tests done. If the lamb upset it that badly l would suspect an allergy or over delicate stomach


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

No we haven't- although the vet did suggest that before. He was previously on Lamb arden grange kibble before this major flare up following worms at Xmas. That's why we tried a lamb food this time :s


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> We started the new food Sunday evening. He's been fine since then stool wise, but this morning has an upset stomach. Sorry to be rather graphic, but it's orange, very mucusy and quite large for him. Some of it is formed, just rather squishy. I believe it has to be his food.
> 
> We've been giving Him a spoonful in his breakfast and dinner and when mixed in with everything it's hardly any. Should I keep trying with the food as I've heard that sometimes you need to persist with it as it can be worse before it gets better. Or should I go back to rice and fish to stabilise him again for a few weeks and try something else? so sad after having a good couple of weeks  maybe I should add it in only once per day?
> 
> I should add its a lamb based wet tray, just lamb,rice, veg in it


Mucos usually means a touch of colitis meaning the bowel is inflamed. So it sounds like something has irritated the gut. If he has had very little and your introducing it slowly, then it shouldn't have really.

When Nanuq used to get the problem in hot weather, I used to stabalise her with chicken and rice and give her pro kolin for a day or two depending on how quickly it become normal and back on the normal food. I guess you could stabalise him but only keep him on the light easily digestible resting diet for as short as possible then try what you are doing again. if it flares up again when you do it looks like there is the answer.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Mucos usually means a touch of colitis meaning the bowel is inflamed. So it sounds like something has irritated the gut. If he has had very little and your introducing it slowly, then it shouldn't have really.
> 
> When Nanuq used to get the problem in hot weather, I used to stabalise her with chicken and rice and give her pro kolin for a day or two depending on how quickly it become normal and back on the normal food. I guess you could stabalise him but only keep him on the light easily digestible resting diet for as short as possible then try what you are doing again. if it flares up again when you do it looks like there is the answer.


Yes these are our thoughts. We are not convinced it is linked to an allergy as his problems seem to occur from his colon- which I would have thought isn't linked to an allergy?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> We are not convinced it is linked to an allergy as his problems seem to occur from his colon- which I would have thought isn't linked to an allergy?


Not necessarily - I have Crohn's and lots of food intolerances sadly

Lets take eggs (as I love these but sadly they are on my intolerance list)

I can often get away with eating them once BUT if I then had them a 2nd day running, I'd be unwell

Also, you can have things that you might be borderline with & if you have that on it's own, you might be fine - but add in a 2nd thing that is borderline too and you'd be ill

I'd go back to the fish & rice, wait until he stabilises and try the lamb again

If the same thing happens - that's a no food

If he's OK then it might be he's picked something up when you've been out somewhere


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

My Rosie has IBD and I find that lamb is one of the foods she just can't tolerate, as well as liver or venison.

She's fine on chicken or white fish. Would you be able to try him with a chicken based food, rather than lamb based?

I think lamb can be quite difficult for some dogs with stomach/bowel problems.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Vet given us pro- kolin and suggested to trial lamb food again and if it upsets, then avoid in future. I think chicken sets him off too, so that leaves fish. Although the wet fish food in the past was quite sloppy and didn't really agree with him


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Also I can't really get my head around why when we first got him we tried every treat going to work on his recall and he was fine. He had liver, ham, sausages, chicken strips etc. he was fine on lamb arden grange for ages and now he seems so intolerant to everything?


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## bay20 (Aug 14, 2013)

Dubuss said:


> Vet given us pro- kolin and suggested to trial lamb food again and if it upsets, then avoid in future. I think chicken sets him off too, so that leaves fish. Although the wet fish food in the past was quite sloppy and didn't really agree with him


Have you tried Arden grange sensitive which is a dry fish based food? This is the only thing that agrees with my dog. We had. A year of bad tummy until we finally found this one which works for him. We tried lamb and chicken based and neither worked for him either. Wet food also doesn't sit well with him. Sensitive boy that he is


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

We tried the fish and potato kibble from Arden grange back in jan, but he got an upset tum again. I noticed they do a tinned one though which I might look at.


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## bay20 (Aug 14, 2013)

Dubuss said:


> We tried the fish and potato kibble from Arden grange back in jan, but he got an upset tum again. I noticed they do a tinned one though which I might look at.


Could be worth a trygood luck!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Well the good news is he hasn't had any further tummy troubles yet, in fact, not been at all since yesterday morning, so we are hoping the pro kolin has got him back on track quickly , fingers crossed!


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Still back on track! We are going to run out of bionic biotics shortly. I am not sure how effective it is- he's been in it since January and had flare ups during that time. Pro-kolin seems to really help him so am tempted to try one by protexin veterinary. Either the bio-premium or pro-fibre. Has anyone used either of these before? If not I'll just plump for one! Can't decide if would benefit from fibre or healthy bacteria more?!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

We used this one when I was trying to get Maisie's tum settled Protexin Pro Fibre For Dogs 500g - Animed Direct

Hope that works as on tablet & useless at links on it

Protein profibre if it hasn't!

Great he's doing better

The AG chicken one goes down well here so would imagine the fish would be smilar


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> We used this one when I was trying to get Maisie's tum settled Protexin Pro Fibre For Dogs 500g - Animed Direct
> 
> Hope that works as on tablet & useless at links on it
> 
> ...


Wow! So impressed with animed direct. Came within 36 hours and I didn't pay for the extra delivery cost. Will order from them in future as found vetmeds has been taking much longer recently.

We've started introducing the lamb- evening only, with a bit of pro kolin and so far ok. Although it's only been a couple of days. You can see in his stools that he is really benefiting from the nutrients he's been missing for so long. I've also got a sample of the partners sensitive from Ness at AG serving shortly to try instead if we get another flare up.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Animed Direct are good, aren't they?

For info, I had our old boy on the Protexin Enterogenic sachets as these are the best strength probiotics - but even my vet warned it could take months before they showed any effect. If it's even the probiotics your dog needs.

Fingers crossed...


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Small update.... We gave up with the lamb and have tried the AG partners fish and potato. He got a slight upset stomach on day 3 of having a spoonful, although this was different to usual and was not colitis like, almost like the food went straight through him. With the dose of pro kolin this cleared up and he's been fine since. We started with one spoonful per day and now after almost 2 weeks we are on two spoonfuls and all ok. Fingers crossed I haven't jinxed this by writing this! Long term plan is to get converted to wet partners and hopefully over to the sensitive kibble.

Also, we claimed from Pet Plan and they covered it all (£350) within 5 days of them receiving the paperwork :thumbup1:


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## bay20 (Aug 14, 2013)

Dubuss said:


> Small update.... We gave up with the lamb and have tried the AG partners fish and potato. He got a slight upset stomach on day 3 of having a spoonful, although this was different to usual and was not colitis like, almost like the food went straight through him. With the dose of pro kolin this cleared up and he's been fine since. We started with one spoonful per day and now after almost 2 weeks we are on two spoonfuls and all ok. Fingers crossed I haven't jinxed this by writing this! Long term plan is to get converted to wet partners and hopefully over to the sensitive kibble.
> 
> Also, we claimed from Pet Plan and they covered it all (£350) within 5 days of them receiving the paperwork :thumbup1:


Great news!!! As I said a while back we had a whole year of upset tummies trying everything and AG sensitive kibble is literally the first thing to ever sit well with him. We went from 5 poos per walk to 3 a day within 3 weeks. Chicken and rice doesn't even sit well with mine! Fingers crossed for you that it continues!


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## Bellaboo1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Glad your boy is improving, my lurcher is very sensitive and has bouts of colitis the only kibble she is ok on is Burns lamb. Instead of giving chicken and rice when she has a bout I give plain white fish (cheap basics sainsburys or the like) and either sweet potato or normal, usually does the trick


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

We've avoided chicken for months too as incidentally we had roast one Sunday, gave him some scraps and then he was ill. May have been a coincidence but I'm too scared to try it and since he is fine with fish we are sticking to that! Vet mentioned that chicken is a very common allergy, but its a hidden ingredient in so many foods.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I hate how the hide things 

Maisie can have chicken but beef  

Found a new high quality wet food I thought we might try ...... marketed as Chicken & Rice and when checking their was beef in it  - and at the same quantity as the Chicken 

So ... why is it not marketed as Chicken, Beef & Rice


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Just throwing it out there cos it might help someone else following this thread with the same problem but no answers- but when Mylo was a pup and for most of his first year he had intermittent bouts of bloody/mucous poos that were orange. It turned out to be nothing to do with food but tiny foreign bodies that were irritating him. Once was a lemon pip, another time a little bit of plastic bag, tiny bit of coat hanger he had chewed, cherry stone etc etc etc. Mylo grew out of it and can now eat a rubbish tip without it affecting him but if he was more sensitive he would probably still have problems with it. He seemed to be able to find stupid things to eat that we didn't even know had been in the house. Inspecting every poo to see if something was in it was a nightmare but there was always something however tiny so we were pretty sure it was that.

On the same vein but much more serious - a friends Spinone was really poorly with mucous and blood poos that eventually turned into being sick too - she had to have the camera put down to see what was going on inside and it was a tiny piece of very thin plastic bag that had stuck itself to the side of her intestine. It was so thin and well stuck that the food was passing over it without moving it on. The irritation was causing her upset.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Hmm, well I jinxed it. Let him out first thing (6am) and he was fine. On our morning walk he's done a mucusy poop x2. First one ok, just a bit bad at the end. It was when he went to do his second I knew it wasn't going to be good  he hasn't eaten anything when walking as he's been on a short lead as he's cut his carpal pad too. 

We had started giving him the pro kolin every other day, so will give him some more tonight and see what happens. So upset as I thought we were finally making progress.

I suppose the good thing is the lamb food gave him mucus poops within 3 days. He's been on the AG fish for 2 weeks so I think it's worth persisting with this food.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

He's had an upset stomach again tonight and I suspect he may have worms. Just a couple of white specks in there like before Xmas. I hadn't wormed him since January because we found that the worming tablets gave him even more of an upset tum and thought we would treat for worms as and when, despite them probably being the cause of these tummy troubles. He does have flea treatment so not sure how he's got worms again. He's not been scratching that I've noticed either

I am tempted to collect a sample first thing tomorrow, give him some drontal and give the sample to the vets on Tuesday, as I'd quite like confirmation that the most recent upset is worms not the food.


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## solo (Mar 26, 2014)

My lab had funny tummy for months, we took away a thing at a time regarding foods, that didn't work !! We then put her on part chappie original and skinners duck and rice its gluten free and hypo allergenic also tool away her bonios and now has carrot sticks frm pets at home, there like bonios but better for her tum she is now great,poos good no more runs, it took a while but worth the trying things out. Good luck


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Thank you Solo. We found we had to start with fish and rice as our base food and introduce foods when he was stable to eliminate foods that upset him.

I am assuming tapeworms again. He has very small white sesame seeds in his stool. They don't look exactly like ones online as they aren't so big and not connected in a worm like shape. Do the tapeworms release the eggs out in their stool? Is there anything else that causes tiny white seeds in their stool? I looked up the date of his last worming tablets, which was Feb 1st. So, with the 3 month recommendation before repeating worming tablets, he would have got worms anyway as we are now beginning of May. Can worming tablets be given more regularly? 

He seems very susceptible to tapeworm. He has advocate more regularly now its Spring, probably every 6 weeks. We were advised advocate for its purposes elsewhere, heartworm, lungworm etc, but I am not sure it is protecting him from fleas since he has got tapeworm again. Incidentally I've been bitten on my arm and twice on my thigh  the only way my thigh is out on show is in the shower though?! My understanding is that he needs to be bitten by a flea to get tapeworm? Should I be giving him a different flea treatment or maybe some flea shampoo when I get round to bathing him?

Also, obviously in the garden there are several areas which are now contaminted with eggs. Does anyone have a recommendation about clearing this up? I think I asked before but I can't remember.

thank you all. At least we have a food likely to help him get back on the mend as the Arden Grange was successful until this.


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## solo (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi. Glad your getting on ok, regarding the worms, i worm by lab every 6 weeks as she eats fox poo ! Ive tries every thing to try and stop her but no luck so i give her drontal this kills most worms including tate worm and it doesn't upset her tummy either


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

So, to cut a long story short (you may have seen my other thread), it seems the tapeworm segments we thought he had in his stools are actually fatty lipids. I got the vet to tell me the results for the EPI test which indicates a bacterial overload in his intestines. 

Vet gave us a 15 day course of metronidazole after this was effective last time this occurred ( Early March). We've now finished this course and is still fine. We are undecided what to do next.

Either, we can wait to see if the symptoms reoccur (last time it took 2 months to flare up again after the antibiotics). Or, we do a full blood test to check for an underlying condition, a further EPI test to check if the result has dropped, ultrasound to check for blockages, even a sample of his gut to be sent off for analysis. This would all be covered by the insurance, so cost isn't involved, but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily when it's possible he's on the mend.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

mmmmmm difficult one - on the one hand, he's been having problems with his tum for ages so it would be good to get to the bottom of the problem BUT I can also see why you wouldn't want to have tests done if he's now sorted

I guess the 'easy' solution would be to wait and see if it reoccurs again - and then I'd def be wanting the tests done BUT then I guess you're risking that it could flare up again *sigh*

Glad to hear he's a bit better now


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## winter (Dec 16, 2012)

Glad you've got some answers.
Hope it doesn't happen again.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> mmmmmm difficult one - on the one hand, he's been having problems with his tum for ages so it would be good to get to the bottom of the problem BUT I can also see why you wouldn't want to have tests done if he's now sorted
> 
> I guess the 'easy' solution would be to wait and see if it reoccurs again - and then I'd def be wanting the tests done BUT then I guess you're risking that it could flare up again *sigh*
> 
> Glad to hear he's a bit better now


Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. The vet just called me actually and I am taking him tomorrow for a weight check, a further two week course of metronidazole and a B12 injection as his levels are really low and should be much higher. She said to monitor him after that and then if it reoccurs try the other tests.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I meant to add, he's still on boiled fish& rice, but we are also now on 1 can per day of AG partners sensitive and he seems happy on it :thumbup:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. The vet just called me actually and I am taking him tomorrow for a weight check, a further two week course of metronidazole and a B12 injection as his levels are really low and should be much higher. She said to monitor him after that and then if it reoccurs try the other tests.


If his vitamin B12 is low that would explain a lot, it does a lot in the body including digestive health and brain function and I think that especially along with folate is used in red blood cell production. In fact it is because I had a weird MCV result and was tested for B12 and Folate too and dogs are not that different. My re test from the MCV came back OK put down to a glitch, and the B12 ad folate was OK, but if it hadn't been I would have had to have the injections too.

Low B12 can come with EPI and also small intestinal bacterial overgrowth as it causes the gut to not be able to absorb that and other nutrients from the food.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> So, to cut a long story short (you may have seen my other thread), it seems the tapeworm segments we thought he had in his stools are actually fatty lipids. I got the vet to tell me the results for the EPI test which indicates a bacterial overload in his intestines.
> 
> Vet gave us a 15 day course of metronidazole after this was effective last time this occurred ( Early March). We've now finished this course and is still fine. We are undecided what to do next.
> 
> Either, we can wait to see if the symptoms reoccur (last time it took 2 months to flare up again after the antibiotics). Or, we do a full blood test to check for an underlying condition, a further EPI test to check if the result has dropped, ultrasound to check for blockages, even a sample of his gut to be sent off for analysis. This would all be covered by the insurance, so cost isn't involved, but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily when it's possible he's on the mend.


Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth does often come with EPI as a matter of course in a lot of cases. B12 and/ or B12 and folate deficiency as I mentioned also comes with it because of the lack of ability to absorb it and other things from the diet. Giving B12 injections will provide the body with the needed B12, the metronidoloze will or should hopefully kill off the small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, so take care of that part of the Malabsorption problems, but if he does have EPI as well then that means that the pancreas isn't making the digestive enzymes also needed to break down and absorb the food and nutrients. Different enzymes break down different components some fats, some proteins, some carbs etc.

In short its a bit what come first the chicken or the egg has he just got SIBO alone which in itself will cause inability to absorb things like B12 and other nutrients, or has he got EPI too. If he has got EPI then he will need the enzymes in an artificial form given to him to do the job completely as well.
So if he has EPI as well as SIBO, then the antibiotics will only be dealing with half the job. The B12 injections will solve the B12 immediate problem but he wont be able to absorb any still from his food as he wont be able to do other nutrients and things either.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If his vitamin B12 is low that would explain a lot, it does a lot in the body including digestive health and brain function and I think that especially along with folate is used in red blood cell production. In fact it is because I had a weird MCV result and was tested for B12 and Folate too and dogs are not that different. My re test from the MCV came back OK put down to a glitch, and the B12 ad folate was OK, but if it hadn't been I would have had to have the injections too.
> 
> Low B12 can come with EPI and also small intestinal bacterial overgrowth as it causes the gut to not be able to absorb that and other nutrients from the food.


Yes, his B12 is right at the low end of the normal range and his folate is well above the normal range. The EPI test was fine, so vet has diagnosed SIBO, but neither of us are really sure what's causing it yet  we won't unless we do the further blood tests, but we are going to wait and see if the antibiotics clear it up first


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Yes, his B12 is right at the low end of the normal range and his folate is well above the normal range. The EPI test was fine, so vet has diagnosed SIBO, but neither of us are really sure what's causing it yet  we won't unless we do the further blood tests, but we are going to wait and see if the antibiotics clear it up first


We are in exactly the same position as you with our Chessie. He's been on B12 injections for a few months now and they haven't worked. The vet changed him to the human B12 injections on the advice of the Lab, and we are just awaiting blood tests results.

We honestly don't know where to go if these don't work


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rona said:


> We are in exactly the same position as you with our Chessie. He's been on B12 injections for a few months now and they haven't worked. The vet changed him to the human B12 injections on the advice of the Lab, and we are just awaiting blood tests results.
> 
> We honestly don't know where to go if these don't work


There may be an explanation Rona that may be worth discussing with the vet If she hasn't thought about it. B12 cant be absorbed into the intestines or the blood either without something called instrinsic factor. The intrinsic factor has to bind with the B12. The intrinsic factor is made in the pancreas. If the person or dog hasn't got sufficient intrinsic factor then they have further problems absorbing B12. It can be a production problem and the body can also make antibodies to the intrinsic factor. As antibodies seem to be able to be made against most things, it maybe possible that it can make antibodies to B12 itself, don't know for sure haven't checked about B12 antibodies. As said though might be worth asking about intrinsic factor and if its worth checking.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

rona said:


> We are in exactly the same position as you with our Chessie. He's been on B12 injections for a few months now and they haven't worked. The vet changed him to the human B12 injections on the advice of the Lab, and we are just awaiting blood tests results.
> 
> We honestly don't know where to go if these don't work


I am sorry to hear your troubles, but also relieved to know that someone else is in the same position. What are you feeding out of interest?

Look at Chemeyes, you can purchase B12 tablets with the intrinsic factor in them. They are quite pricey, but I was going to discuss them with the vet tomorrow. Also there is tonnes of info on SIBO and b12 on the EPI dogs forum.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> I am sorry to hear your troubles, but also relieved to know that someone else is in the same position. What are you feeding out of interest?
> 
> Look at Chemeyes, you can purchase B12 tablets with the intrinsic factor in them. They are quite pricey, but I was going to discuss them with the vet tomorrow. Also there is tonnes of info on SIBO and b12 on the EPI dogs forum.


Apparently intrinsic factor is different for different species.
Cobalamin: Diagnostic use and therapeutic considerations - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences

We found a very long time ago that Chappie original tins was the only food that keeps Muddy alive.....................We cannot risk putting anything through his tummy. Even some drugs from the vet send him haywire

He's had this issue for 7.5 years now and we nearly lost him at 18 months through it


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

We are currently feeding Arden Grange Sensitive wet food as like you its the only thing he's settled on. Has Chessie always been like it, or did he develop it later on?

I don't really understand why it's suddenly come on?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> We are currently feeding Arden Grange Sensitive wet food as like you its the only thing he's settled on. Has Chessie always been like it, or did he develop it later on?
> 
> I don't really understand why it's suddenly come on?


He was a big strapping fellow up to about 15 months when it started, ended up like a skeleton. We'd discussed PTS and gave it 2 weeks to turn around. Put him on Chappie as a last ditch and it worked.

He was more or less fine for about 6.5 years as long as he didn't scavenge anything, but he's recently having a relapse, though no where near how he was when he was young.
We are hoping it's stabilized again with B12 injections.

We also use Buscapan to relax his tummy when it's bad and he's in pain.

Canacur seems to help a little.

He has prednisolone injections when he's starting the throw up or has diarrhea


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Yay! He's finally put some weight on! Put on 1kg and now weighs 23.5kg, first time he's put weight on in months. Think it's due to tablets and the nutrients he is getting from the AG.

We've got a further 15 day course of metronidazole and a B12 shot. We are goin to see how we get on. Since he's putting on weight and seems healthy at the moment we are going to leave it and see if it reoccurs.

Last time after 10 day course of tablets, it took 2 months for his symptoms to reappear, so it is possible he needs a longer course.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dubuss said:


> Yay! He's finally put some weight on! Put on 1kg and now weighs 23.5kg, first time he's put weight on in months. Think it's due to tablets and the nutrients he is getting from the AG.
> 
> We've got a further 15 day course of metronidazole and a B12 shot. We are goin to see how we get on. Since he's putting on weight and seems healthy at the moment we are going to leave it and see if it reoccurs.
> 
> Last time after 10 day course of tablets, it took 2 months for his symptoms to reappear, so it is possible he needs a longer course.


Great news. Hopefully it is just SIBO and the B12 deficiency that's causing the problems then and with the metronidazole and now the injections that will be all that's needed.


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Hi I've just read through this thread with great interest, as my pup has gone through a very similar thing that started out of the blue last October when he was 4 months old. 

He had several blood tests and faeces samples tested and every time the results came back clear.l Antibiotics stopped the diarrhoea but when each course came to an end, within a few days he was back with terrible diarrhoea again.

Eventually he was diagnosed as having Primary ARD - Antibiotioc Responsive Diarrhoea, which is another name for SIBO. 
He was then given daily Metronidazole and a cobalamine (B12) injection every week for 6 weeks. He was given Hills i/d low fat and nothing else to eat.

My boy will be a year old in a few days and is still on antibiotics. My vet hopes that as he matures now, he will actually grow out of it but has warned me not to get my hopes up as it is very possible that he will not grow out of it and will have to stay on a low dose of metronidazole for the rest of his life.

For the past three months or so he has been a happy and healthy pup, with a good appetite, boundless energy and no-one would guess that if we stopped his medication , within 2/3 days he would have this awful diarrhoea again.

In a couple of weeks he will have another cobalmine and folate test, and if those results are still normal; as they were a couple of months ago, we will think of slowly over a period of time cutting down on the Metro until he's off it. Then, if he is still well I shall try to , again very slowly, get him back onto a more normal diet.
I was told that this condition had nothing to do with his feeding regime or the food he ate, and as they could find no primary cause of it it was impossible to really say why it is that it happened in the first place.
The only suggestions were that it could in his case have been a developmental problem as he was a very tiny puppy at birth and not expected to survive.

Sorry this is so long, but hope it helps.

Kathy J.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi

We had a few weeks of this with Finn not so long ago, his stools were fine one days and horribly slimy and mucousy the next.....our vet did stool samples after antibiotics, which were all clear, we wormed him and he still had trouble.

We fed him scrambled egg and boiled rice (alternatively each meal) for five days then introduced original Chappie kibble and his stools have been fab ever since! (He was on Burns before)

We are waiting for a full allergy blood screen for environmental and dietary triggers as Finn has skin problems too and I won't be at all surprised if his diet is the problem.

Hope you get sorted soon. X


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Thank you both for your supportive posts  feeling more positive these days regarding a good outcome. We still don't know what is causing the intestinal overload, but I am hoping the antibiotics & b12 help :smile5:

Kathy- what breed is your dog and what are you feeding him? The only thing that doesn't cause an upset for Pickles is boiled rice, white fish & we are now using 1 and half cans of Arden Grange sensitive canned food per day. Whenever we tried to put him back on kibble him symptoms flared up, so we gave up with it.


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> Kathy- what breed is your dog and what are you feeding him?


He's a cavalier - and a super little lad (but of course I would say that wouldn't I!)
At present he's on Hills i/d low fat kibble which he's been on for about three months now with nothing else at all. I use part of his daily allowance to set aside as treats and training rewards.
He was weaned onto Purina Beta puppy and I kept him on that as he did well on it with absolutely no problems until he was about 4½ months old (18 weeks) when suddenly one night he woke me up crying - something that had never happened before with him as he had slept through every night without a problem. We were up 3/4 times that night and each time he had a bout of diarrhoea. This proved to be the start of the problem.
As I mentioned he was fine as soon as he was given a course of antibiotics, but every single time he finished the course the same thing happened within a few days. He was active and happy and healthy the whole time otherwise.

I discussed changing his food with his vets just to see if that made any difference - each time he was bad I'd given him Hills i/d canned food for a day or two before getting him back onto his Beta again. So my vets suggested that as he was used to that we change him slowly onto the Hills i/d kibble.
Again he did well on this and with no problems at all until the antibiotics were stopped, when the diarrhoea returned.

Then my other cavalier (7 years old) became ill and was diagnosed with Chronic low grade pancreatitis - when she was moved onto Hills i/d low fat kibble we put Bili on that too as it's easier to feed them both on the same kibble at the moment.
Again he's been fine and doing well on that but the diarrhoea returned when we tried him without antibiotics.
So really it appears that he has no issues with whatever with what we feed him as long as he is on the antibotics.
He has been well now -on a/b's for about three months and he is due for another folate and cobalamine test next week. Depending on what that shows, we hope to very slowly cut his a/b's down and stop them altogether ..... and then stand back with fingers crossed to see what happens.
He might have grown out of this. But I will keep him on this Hills i/d low fat kibble for a good while afterwards before considering trying to get him back onto another food.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Muddys results came back positive. The new B12 injections have worked and his levels are high.

Tuesday he has a very bad tum again, the second time in 3 weeks


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rona said:


> Muddys results came back positive. The new B12 injections have worked and his levels are high.
> 
> Tuesday he has a very bad tum again, the second time in 3 weeks


Glad the B12 levels are fine now and the injections have worked.

Sorry though that poor Muddy has had another pad turn. Have they checked him to see he hasn't got an enzyme insufficiency too or small intestinal bacterial owergrowth too? Some times all three can even come together.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Well, Pickles finished the Metronozidale and has been fine off them for a week and a bit. He had diarrhea yesterday morning, not that bad, but unformed. We continued feeding him, with the plan to take him back to the vets today. However, we waited for him to do another poo, which he did in the evening, last night and this morning, which are formed again 

The one this morning was however, almost shiny blue/grey  the vet thinks he may have some irritation of the stomach lining/ulcer forming as she did warn us long term antibiotics can cause this (he was on them for 4 weeks). 

We are taking him in tomorrow for a weight check and some tablets to remove gassy deposits from his stomach I think she said.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's just an ongoing nightmare that stabilizes, then come back to scare you again


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

rona said:


> It's just an ongoing nightmare that stabilizes, then come back to scare you again


Sudden urge to sing One Direction... 'Story of my life..!'

Ashamed to know it, but hey!


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## Yorkiemorkiemum (Jun 14, 2012)

I wouldn't worry my boy has had five lots of ten hour chemo been on thirty odd tabs plus four lots of eye drops given twenty minutes apart and an eye op for a year now and his fur has fallen out in massive patches as well as me undergoing surgery and treatment for a throat tumour and spinal injury and I'm still here and about 50% still sane! So hang on in there my little dude is still greasing people with a saggy tail and a kiss haha


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Well, the good news is his stools are back to normal and weigh in at vets shows he's gained another kg! Up to 24.5kg so we are very pleased. Going to keep piling it on for a bit, I'd rather he be a little overweight as he suddenly drops so much when he's ill. At least he'll have a little to fall back on. I think once he's up to 26kg, ill try to maintain it.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I haven't given an update in ages, so thought I would.

Pickles is still doing ok. He had an upset stomach last Sunday, but it returned to normal straight away and he's been ok since. I'm not overly happy with the consistency of his stools, sometimes they are great, other times, a bit soft, but still formed. 

He's occasionally had white specks in his stools, but they are not accompanied by diarrhea. I've considered investigating these, but the whole time he's not got an upset stomach we are happy.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Pickles has been ok again for the last couple of weeks until this morning. I totally jinxed it again 

He did his usual poo this morning at 6am. I even said to my OH it was 'really nice' - unfortunately we do often have conversations about this 

Then, on his walk at 10am, he had diarrhoea and again just now. Not overly mucousy. He did have a slight upset tum on June 22nd and July 13th looking at his diary, both have lasted one poo and then been back to normal. 

The fact he has been twice now is not looking good, but hoping it still might just be a 24 hr thing. Maybe the heat


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhhhh darn it  it's so frustrating when you think you've cracked it and then ... boom 

Sorry if you've mentioned earlier (have a memory like a sieve ) - does he scavenge when you're out?

Now we've finally (touch wood) got a reasonable rotation of foods going with Maisie - it's def the scavenging that's causing her upsets .. just now anyway


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Phoned vets after his 4th poo of the day, three of which were very soft. They've given us another 2 week course of Metronozidale.

He said to speak to the normal vet who sees Pickles regarding further tests as she knows his history.

I might push for another EPI/ SIBO test. Interested to see if the EPI result has dropped significantly. I've noticed in the past week or so he's been really really interested in eating other dogs (and cat) poo- a symptom of EPI. At least we could see if his folate has gone down or b12 up and maybe give him a course of b12 injections. Would this need to be done after the tablets have finished? This is also important since the vet thinks its fat lipids in his stools not tapeworm segments.

The vet tonight did say the only way we'd probably find out what's wrong is an intestinal biopsy, but explained this is obtrusive and not without risk. Our usual vet has suggested an ultrasound which may be better? This would all be covered by the insurance so we don't need to worry about costs.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Lilylass said:


> Ohhhhhh darn it  it's so frustrating when you think you've cracked it and then ... boom
> 
> Sorry if you've mentioned earlier (have a memory like a sieve ) - does he scavenge when you're out?
> 
> Now we've finally (touch wood) got a reasonable rotation of foods going with Maisie - it's def the scavenging that's causing her upsets .. just now anyway


The only thing he's been scavenging suddenly in the last week is dog poo. He doesn't always do thus- it appears to be doing input in the run up to an upset


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm not often able to come on and read and post anything much so was interested today to rad your updates Dubuss. I'm sorry you're still having these problems.

My little lad has just had another bout of this ....... after 6 months totally free of any tummy upset still on the Hills i/d low fat diet only, and half dose of Metronidazole every morning, we decided to stop the metronidazole and see what happened. A week later he had a blood test that came back with everything normal.
12 days after stopping the metronidazole (this last weekend) he suddenly started again ..... one very soft motion at teatime, another small one at bedtime, and at 3 o clock in the morning started with full blown liquid diarrhoea three times in 4 hours.
I had some metronidazole in and put him straight on that, half twice a day, and canikur twice daily, after a chat with the vet - not his ususal vet.
The diarrhoea stopped after the first day.

After a chat with my usual vet later in the week and at his instruction, I stopped the canikur and cut the metronidazole down to half daily and I am to restart the canikur today and stop the metronidazole tomorrow. He will have just the canikur until wednesday and then I will stop that also, and then see how it goes.
He also wants me to use only the canikur if it flares up again to see if we can stop the diarrhoea using just the diet amd the canikur.

I'm not trying to hijack your thread here - just letting you know how we are managing with a very similar problem to yours in the hope that it may help you with Pickles.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> The vet tonight did say the only way we'd probably find out what's wrong is an intestinal biopsy, but explained this is obtrusive and not without risk. Our usual vet has suggested an ultrasound which may be better? This would all be covered by the insurance so we don't need to worry about costs.


So frustrating isn't it? 
Muddy had an intestinal biopsy, in his case apart from showing that the lining of his stomach was in a terrible state (no surprise) it was of no help at all 



Dubuss said:


> The only thing he's been scavenging suddenly in the last week is dog poo. He doesn't always do thus- it appears to be doing input in the run up to an upset


We can tell when Muddy is about to have an episode now because he starts to scavenge.

Hoping you get on top of this episode quickly


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> I might push for another EPI/ SIBO test. Interested to see if the EPI result has dropped significantly. I've noticed in the past week or so he's been really really interested in eating other dogs (and cat) poo- a symptom of EPI.


Just out of interest, does he actually eat any poo?

My previous dog used to get the runs for a day or two every time he did this. I know you have a lot more going on with yours, but do you think it may be this that's triggered the latest bout rather than anything more sinister?


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Kathy J said:


> I'm not often able to come on and read and post anything much so was interested today to rad your updates Dubuss. I'm sorry you're still having these problems.
> 
> My little lad has just had another bout of this ....... after 6 months totally free of any tummy upset still on the Hills i/d low fat diet only, and half dose of Metronidazole every morning, we decided to stop the metronidazole and see what happened. A week later he had a blood test that came back with everything normal.
> 12 days after stopping the metronidazole (this last weekend) he suddenly started again ..... one very soft motion at teatime, another small one at bedtime, and at 3 o clock in the morning started with full blown liquid diarrhoea three times in 4 hours.
> ...


No, you are not hijacking the thread. Your thoughts and advice is very welcome. With pickles, he had a 4 week course of metronidazole and then the symptoms appeared 2 months later. This has happened on two occasions. It's almost like the tablets help him stomach and then the effect wears off and the problems return. He has been diagnosed with SIBO, so the bacteria must grow back slowly. This is just my own interpretation. I need to catch up With my normal vet and ask her thoughts, we've been out of contact as pickles was doing well. He had a slight upset tum on 22nd June and 13th July, but his stools returned to normal straight away. This time I knew it was different as he went 4 times yesterday. Got the tablets last night. No more poos yet, now I've given him one and a dose of pro kolin. Our saving grace is knowing the tablets have the impact we need. Have you ever given b12 shots?


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

PennyGSD said:


> Just out of interest, does he actually eat any poo?
> 
> My previous dog used to get the runs for a day or two every time he did this. I know you have a lot more going on with yours, but do you think it may be this that's triggered the latest bout rather than anything more sinister?


This is a reply to Rona as well! He started scavenging last weekend. When this happens, his recall goes out he window and he runs off to eat poo. It's like his completely mesmerised by the smell, almost like a cartoon  he ate dog/cat poo last weekend, but hasn't eaten any since Tuesday looking at when I text my OH. I clearly sent him a text on wed and Thursday saying his recall was fab and he didn't eat any poo. Which means he last ate it that I know on Tuesday and then was ill by Friday. Unless his eaten something I haven't seen, not convinced as I watch him constantly and am in the garden with him, it's almost like a Trigger and I know he's going to get ill. Like he's missing nutrients and needs to eat it. It's interesting as my OH said he hasn't been eating poo in ages and suddenly he does


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Unlikely this episode was caused by the poo eating in that case - although you never know what nasties may have been in there hanging around and multiplying to cause trouble yesterday.

I have to admit, Jack would get the runs within a few hours of poo eating.

There does seem to be a link between his scavenging and about to get an upset tum. Could you maybe head this off in future by giving some prokolin/slippery elm etc when he has a bout of scavenging - or extra nutritional supplement?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Try adding the contents of a couple of slippery elm capsules (Holland & Barret) to his meals. Richard Alport (dogs today vet suggested this) and I did it recently when Kali was on a grass eating bonanza. It's what the vet gave us when Marty had pancreatitis and is a good tummy settler - as is a couple of teaspoons of manuka honey (10+ at asda) twice a day. 
Having a stomach ulcer myself I know these two things work because I don't like taking drugs from the gp unless really necessary. Worth a try.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

He has yumpro tablets twice a day, which I do think helped to stop the diarrhoea from the dog poo. Giving him pro kolin is a good idea and will do that next time. 

I suppose the good things are he's no where near as ill as he was. He's lost a little more weight since the last weight check, now 23.1kg, but I'm a teacher, so he's been getting a proper run every day since we broke up (2 weeks ago) which I do think has contributed. We have been giving him a bit more rice to help battle the weight loss, but not quite enough. Although I do find once he gets as stomach upset, his weight drops dramatically. 

We're also noticing patterns now, such as eating poo prior to a flare up thanks to the diary were writing. At least now we can maybe try to combat the next episode.


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> . He has been diagnosed with SIBO, so the bacteria must grow back slowly. This is just my own interpretation. I need to catch up With my normal vet and ask her thoughts,


. 
BB was diagnosed with SIBO and I asked my vet why the metronidazole quickly stopped the diarrhoea, suggesting to me that it was doing it's job and killing off the bad bacterial overgrowth, yet within a very short period after finishing the course ( no matter how long or short that was) the diarrhoea came back with a vengeance suggesting that it wasn't really touching the bacterial overgrowth.
My vet then told me that another name that is being used for SIBO is Antibiotic Responsive Diarrhoea (ARD) because that describes exactly what happens in this condition.
My vet even went so far as to say that he thought they could be two very similar but separate conditions - SIBO, which apparently is difficult to positively diagnose in dogs as that needs several biopsies taken from different parts of the bowel wall ... not something that you really want to be doing in my opinion as it's not always conclusive, and ARD, that no-one really knows exactly what causes it, which is characterised by the fact that it clears up with antibiotics and returns at some point when they are stopped.
Now that one I could understand as it described perfectly what my lad was going through.
Would be interested to know what your vets thoughts are on this.



Dubuss said:


> Have you ever given b12 shots?


Yes, when the SIBO diagnosis first came through his B12 levbels were extremely low as well. He was treated with the metronidazole and B12 injections once weekly for 6 weeks, a blood test after the 6 weeks confirmed that his B12 levels were as they should be.. 
Then after a month without we did a second blood test to check that the b12 was still normal. 
We may check the B12 levels once a year if he continues to have the diarrhoea.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I will speak to his usual vet on Monday and see what her thoughts are on this. He's still be ok this morning. Just taken him for a quick walk and no poo yet. It's amazing really how quickly the tablets work. I also agree regarding the ARD as it does only clear up with antibiotics.

I think I will ask them to retest his folate and b12, as well as the test for EPI. I suppose we need to wait until his off the tablets for this however?


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> I think I will ask them to retest his folate and b12, as well as the test for EPI. I suppose we need to wait until his off the tablets for this however?


Do you mean off the metronidazole? I think it's ok to do the tests while still on that.
As far as I can remember we've fasted BB for most if not all his tests, taking him in for 9:00am for the blood to be drawn, before being given his breakfast and first tablet of the day about ½ hour later when we got home. 
He had been on the tablets without a break for the whole six months prior to stopping them three weeks ago. So all tests up to that point were done while on them.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Great- I will ask vet for a retest in the week. I'd like to see what his levels are like and if it hints towards EPI in any way, or just the SIBO.


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

SIBO/ARD can be either a primary condition on its own where you may never know the cause, or secondary to another condition such as EPI, so always worth checking in these cases for any other conditions that are there.
If it's secondary to something else then treating the other primary problem will usually resolve the SIBO


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

I went out with him first thing and another animal had done a poo in our garden. Guessing a cat, as we used to have foxes, but not seen one for at least a year. I picked it up so to ensure he didn't eat it and it had maggots in it 

With that sort of thing in the garden, it's no wonder he gets ill. We go it with him every time to ensure he doesn't eat anything, so will have to keep doing it.


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Ugh! Cat poo is the worst for attracting dogs, I reckon. Every singl dog I ever had would eat it if given the chance!


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## Prince001 (Aug 5, 2014)

You really need to give him what he suits. Sometimes lack of water cause it. and Raw food diets are controversial like raw meat, bones, fruits, and vegetables etc.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Prince001 said:


> You really need to give him what he suits. Sometimes lack of water cause it. and Raw food diets are controversial like raw meat, bones, fruits, and vegetables etc.


Did you actually read all 17 pages of this thread or just add a comment at the end?! I'm not sure what the reference to the raw diet is about?  Considering he's been diagnosed with SIBO and had fatty deposits in his stool, I'm not convinced its a lack of water that's causing all his tummy troubles...


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> Did you actually read all 17 pages of this thread or just add a comment at the end?! I'm not sure what the reference to the raw diet is about?  Considering he's been diagnosed with SIBO and had fatty deposits in his stool, I'm not convinced its a lack of water that's causing all his tummy troubles...


Lol. How amazing would that be. Get him to drink more and all your problems will be solved. How on earth would vets make a living.

I also love the advice to 'give him what suits'. Fantastic advice. Bet you hadn't thought of that earlier and are now feeling guilty about not bothering to investigate!


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Kathy J said:


> After a chat with my usual vet later in the week and at his instruction, I stopped the canikur and cut the metronidazole down to half daily and I am to restart the canikur today and stop the metronidazole tomorrow. He will have just the canikur until wednesday and then I will stop that also, and then see how it goes.
> He also wants me to use only the canikur if it flares up again to see if we can stop the diarrhoea using just the diet amd the canikur.
> .


Ah well - the best laid plans ........

This was last Saturday and Bilbo had his last metronidazole dose on Sunday.... he's been having the canikure twice a day since Saturday and today was his last day before stopping that as well.
Yesterday afternoon he passed a rather soft yellowish motion. Then at about three o clock this morning the diarrhoea started .... right on cue two days after his metronidazole stopped!!

He's back on it again now for the forseeable future - as my vet said 'I think we have to give in now and just accept that he has to have the metronidazole' and I agree. 
We will try and cut him down to the smallest dose that keeps him clear in about three months or so. We may also possibly in the distant future, try him without again, but we both feel that it will be a waste of time and he is probably always going to have to have the antibiotic.


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Sorry to hear this. At least we both know we can rely on these drugs. My vet did say that some dogs are on these tablets for life. Hopefully you can cut the dose down over time.

The vet called me back this morning. She is going to double check with the lab about testing when on antibiotics and we can look to do that soon. His stools were slightly soft yesterday but ok again today. His symptoms reoccur every 2-3 months so I might discuss with the vet doing a week long course every 8 weeks to keep it at bay.


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## Kathy J (Jun 1, 2012)

Dubuss said:


> His symptoms reoccur every 2-3 months so I might discuss with the vet doing a week long course every 8 weeks to keep it at bay.


That sounds like a good idea to try to me - I might suggest , a further down the line when we have BB on the lowest dose that works, perhaps trying him with it every other day.
Thanks for the idea Dubuss!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Muddy has just had a bad attack. It progressed to bloody stools within 5 days.

The vets didn't mess around this time and gave him 3-4 days of Sulfasalazine alongside the usual buscopan and pro kolin .
By day two he was virtually back to normal :thumbsup:


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## Dubuss (Nov 14, 2012)

Oh dear, but I am glad the tablets worked.

Pickles had another epi/ sibo test, which again showed no epi, but SibO. Too much bad bacteria. He's been ok for a month and a half. Two slight upset tums each lasting one day before being back to normal. We are giving him bionic biotics as it contains b12 so hoping this might help.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dubuss said:


> Oh dear, but I am glad the tablets worked.
> 
> Pickles had another epi/ sibo test, which again showed no epi, but SibO. Too much bad bacteria. He's been ok for a month and a half. Two slight upset tums each lasting one day before being back to normal. We are giving him bionic biotics as it contains b12 so hoping this might help.


Glad they've been quickly sorted. With Muds, it did get better and less severe gradually, but now he's older, it seems to be more of an issue again 
Muddy is on monthly B12 injections at the moment. OH is injecting him. I think he'll be tested again in a couple of months time


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