# deliberatly breeding 'moggies'



## Guest (Apr 25, 2010)

hope its okay to ask this but i just wondered what are cat breeders opinions on the subject?, i use to work at a cat rescue and so i obviously am very much against it.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

We had a major row on here about this last week and the moderators deleted the entire thread, so be warned!

My view? It entirely depends on the area you live in. If you live in an area where demand for kittens exceeds supply (which seems to be the case in London and the South East) then I don't see any problem with it as long as you do it properly - people will say everyone should rescue, but until shelters are far more realistic about who is allowed to have one of their cats, that isn't going to happen.

By doing it properly, I mean that the kittens do not leave home until at least 8 weeks and the breeder is prepared to take back any kitten where the buyer discovers an allergy (there are plenty of ads on places like preloved where buyers claim to be selling on a kitten they have had for just a couple of days - of course it is possible that they picked up the kittens for nothing and decided to make a quick profit). And you do not produce kittens with the idea that the shelters are there as a back-up if you can't home your ktitens.

If you live in an area where supply of kittens exceeds demand and the shelters are full then no you should not breed moggies because you are likely to add to the problem.

One interesting question is, why can't shelters in in the South East do regular runs to pick up kittens from the North or Wales? That has certainly happened with dogs in the past. Of course it may be that right now they are all full because people have been dumping their adult pets for the last couple of years, and the difference is that in the North the ones least likely to be rehomed are simply destroyed because the shelter has to cope with regular influxes of very homeable kittens. If shelter workers tell me that is the case then I will be happy to revise my opinions.

Liz


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2010)

ive only just joined so i didn't know there had already been a thread on the subject i don't want to start an argument or anything just genuinly interested in other people opinions, thanks for yours


in answer to your question about picking up cats from other areas its probably to do with cost, the rescue i helped out at was run on a shoe string. But was always full to bursting anyway:frown:


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## Katinkia (Nov 30, 2009)

Well I'm doing it but I've waited a long time to do so. I don't want to breed cats but I want my family to experience a litter of kittens. I've rescued many cats and spent thousands on vet fees for cats i've only ended up having for a short time.

The bottom line here is I personally think I've done my bit and I am not doing it for profit or anything else and we are keeping all the offspring. I wouldn't approve really of breeding them to make what £30 a kitten?


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## serenitylove (Nov 23, 2008)

iv bred 4 litters of moggie kittens the latest being born friday  i have had a list of people wanting them for each litter and although i have decided this is our last one iv not once regreted it but im lucky i live in an area that kittens are not in such supply if i did things would be different knowing they would have homes befor hand was a big factor but as i have 5 cats myself id happily keep any anyways x


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

I too wish there could be a "supply" run to areas where cats and kittens are in short supply. Up here the RSPCA has stopped taking in, the CP has a 3 month waiting list for cats to come in and even the little rescues are so full that the best they can do with some is neuter and return to where they were if someone is feeding the stray until they have space. So here I would be VERY much against it.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't want a pedigree cat as I want mine to be able to be outdoor cats, and not be kept indoors. So I would always look for moggies so if I didn't want to rescue, then I would like a breeder. I personally think breeding moggies as pets is fine as long as the queen is healthy and is vet checked.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

I am only against breeding moggies when there are rescues full of unwanted cats and kittens, and when some people just cant be arsed getting there cat sterilized and let it breed continuously.


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## Katinkia (Nov 30, 2009)

There's no law against letting pedigrees outside. I always let my persians out and currently let my british shorthair out with my other cats (moggies). I live at the end of a cul-de-sac though and I have nice neighbours. I believe in letting cats out but don't impose it on others. Each to their own.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I feek its ok aslong as the queen isnt over bred one litter a year is enough I feel obviously she would have to be a house cat and I belive if your going to breed moggies then they should be house cats for her own safty. I dont agree with letting an un neuterd queen wonder the streets because not only would she be at rosk of infections, but the males may also fight for the right to mate. Aslong as the breeder will ensure the kittens have a good up bringing and be wormed/vet checked before leaving and like others say offer to have the kitten back if the home falls through.


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## Baby British (Jan 24, 2010)

Katinkia said:


> There's no law against letting pedigrees outside. I always let my persians out and currently let my british shorthair out with my other cats (moggies). I live at the end of a cul-de-sac though and I have nice neighbours. I believe in letting cats out but don't impose it on others. Each to their own.


I don't let me BSH out as my neighbours aren't particularly nice (plus both have dogs roaming round the garden) and there is a particularly large unneutered cat population (both mine are done incidentally) in my area. Last year I took a pitiful looking stray to the vets who was diagnosed with the advanced stages of the feline aids virus (sorry not sure of the correct term!) and had to be PTS.

On the subject of the OP I think it's important to keep in mind that whether moggie or pedigree they are all cats at the end of the day. I don't see a problem in breeding if you can 100% guarantee good homes for the kittens or have the space to keep them yourself. Sadly I know that many people allow their cats to breed a) just for the sake of having cute kittens around with little thought as what to happens next b) to make a quick buck or c) just haven't been bothered to neuter their pet. On the flip side many unscrupulous breeders also allow pedigrees to reproduce continually with scant regard for either the sort of homes the kittens will go to or the welfare of the queen.

In an ideal world everyone would adopt form rescues but I agree that many rescues don't make it easy. I once wanted to adopt a kitten from a local rescue and was told no because my children were too young  If breeders were to demonstrate an ethical approach to cat breeding (either by ensuring good homes for the off spring or neutering in the first instance) then rescues wouldn't be so full. Sadly this isn't likely to happen any time soon.

And so the arguement rumbles on......


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I think if its done all correctly just like that of a purebreed cat breeder whos responsible and your not just churning out kittens for the sake of it.

My mom has stated that even though she likes a few breeds (BSH,Maine coon, Scottish fold) She would rather have your common run of the mill (no pun intended) cat.


Also as much as I'd be fine with rescueing I dont like the idea of some stranger coming in and have a look around. So I dont think rescueing is for me. I would privatly rehome through an ad though.


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

I have no objection to breeding moggies as a general rule?! Depending im afraid on who is doing it. I own British short hairs (one has access outside he is a neuter and only wanders as far as my neighbours garden and they love him!) but have also owned moggies all my life.

I find the difference between them vast both in temperment and the care they need. British shorthairs are much more social and need love and affection much more than my old moggies used to. This is a problem for some people when buying a cat they need to know what they are buying, some people expecting a nice cuddly kitty may get a fiercely independent outdoorsy cat who will only tolerate affection on their terms. 
Pedigree Breeders go to great lengths to make sure their kittens go to suitable homes and many good breeders ask to have the kitten/cat back if rehoming is necessary. In my opinion if breeders of moggies did the same many of today's problems would not occur. If the new owners were properly checked out and informed of all the facts some may decide agaisnt the idea obviously you will always get people with changing circumstances etc which is understandable. 

Also I do not agree with people charging a lot of money for a moggies or indeed cross breeds as many people refer to them now. I regularly see people selling British shorthair crosses an asking £200+ each for them. They are unflead, unwormed and unvaccinated. These are the reasons pedigree animals cost what they do. 

My brother brought 2 kittens from someone who regularly has accidents as she calls them (not much of an accident when it happens twice a year every year) He rang me distressed one day as they were suffering with runny tummy's and shaking their heads. I went down to check them out and found them infested with ear mites and they needed worming. It is people like this im afraid who spoil breeding your beloved cat for people like you Katinkia who will take care of them and offer them all loving homes.

I think it has to be a personal choice for everyone those breeding the cats and those buying them. I would not condemn anyone who raises healthy kittens who go to loving homes.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2010)

becbec31 said:


> Pedigree Breeders go to great lengths to make sure their kittens go to suitable homes and many good breeders ask to have the kitten/cat back if rehoming is necessary. In my opinion if breeders of moggies did the same many of today's problems would not occur. If the new owners were properly checked out and informed of all the facts some may decide agaisnt the idea obviously you will always get people with changing circumstances etc which is understandable.
> 
> Also I do not agree with people charging a lot of money for a moggies or indeed cross breeds as many people refer to them now. I regularly see people selling British shorthair crosses an asking £200+ each for them. They are unflead, unwormed and unvaccinated. These are the reasons pedigree animals cost what they do.
> 
> I think it has to be a personal choice for everyone those breeding the cats and those buying them. I would not condemn anyone who raises healthy kittens who go to loving homes.


thanks to everyone for your input

on the whole i agree with this post

i believe people should take responsibility for all animals they have produced at anytime in their lifetime(wether its cat/dog/rabbit etc), so those who breed many litters should always be certain they can accomodate their breedings at least until they find them suitable new homes should the need arise. Unfortunatley where i worked the cats were predominantly moggies or crossbreeds so this is why i posted this thread,

imo all animals should be micro chipped so they can be traced back to the breeder!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Shamen said:


> thanks to everyone for your input
> 
> imo all animals should be micro chipped so they can be traced back to the breeder!


i forgot to add that bit - I agree with you


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> i forgot to add that bit - I agree with you


same here that is a priority imo


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

All my cats are microchipped and my dog and i always recommend it to new owners. I also insist if people are buying purely for pets that they neuter/spay the cat before it is a year old. I would prefer a 9month rule but with British Shorthair the males particularly develop better face shape etc if they are left entire for a while (or so i have been recommended by other breeders and show people) I make them sign a contract which has been legally verified that if they fail to produce proof of this i can legally repossess the animal due to breach of contractual agreement. Something i haven't had to do yet but I think it deters people looking to make a fast buck!!


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2010)

becbec31 said:


> All my cats are microchipped and my dog and i always recommend it to new owners. I also insist if people are buying purely for pets that they neuter/spay the cat before it is a year old. I would prefer a 9month rule but with British Shorthair the males particularly develop better face shape etc if they are left entire for a while (or so i have been recommended by other breeders and show people) I make them sign a contract which has been legally verified that if they fail to produce proof of this i can legally repossess the animal due to breach of contractual agreement. Something i haven't had to do yet but I think it deters people looking to make a fast buck!!


it would be nice to think that all breeders had such good ethics as yourself...i totally agree with contracts, i think they are the mark of a responsible breeder...usually


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Yes they can be a mark of responsibility but unfortunately they have also been high-jacked by breeders attempting to control their bloodlines. In some cases this can be necessary if there is a problem in a bloodline although if it was me I wouldnt knowingly breed from an animal who has a possibility of passing on any condition to its offspring.
Some breeders i have come across are insisting people buying active reg animals sign contracts stating that any offspring from the animal can only be sold for pets and you cannot keep boys for breeding. This is apparently to protect bloodlines however i sometimes feel it is for financial reasons, it seems unfair to me to sell an animal for breeding and then put restrictions on the new owner. Often people may a lot of money for an active reg cat and it shoudl be up to them what they do with it offspring. And of course you are starting to restrict gene pools if you keep protecting your lines.

i wouldn't personally bu a cat that was contracted in such a way. Sorry gone off on a tagent a bit there but it would be interesting to see what other people think of these contracts.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I don't believe contracts are worth the paper they are written on, hence there being so many BYB. When do you ever hear of someone taking their cat back, or going to court ? As for the contract stating you cannot sell any off-spring from your stud you could simply have a boy from the stud, retire the contracted stud and continue as you please with the offspring. 

I think there has to be a certain amount of trust involved, I don't trust easily which why I choose to early neuter.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

This is a hard one for me - but I think I'm finally decided on where I stand....

Generally speaking I am very pro-rescue. I would always prefer to adot rather than buy and I encourage others to do the same. the overpopulation of dogs and cats in the UK horrifies me.

I have heard many people claim that all breeders of moggies / crosses etc are BYBs and that only champion, health checked pedigrees should be allowed to breed. I do not agree with this. There are a few breeds of cat I quite like, but being honest I like moggies best. For me they exactly what a cat should be, and they win hands down. I wouldn't want to think we could end up only being allowed pedigrees, and moggies being wiped out!

Of course, I don't like anyone breeding purely for profit, or putting the animals (parents or offspring) at risk. I think health checks, proper vet care, proper breeding and rearing practices are far more important than pedigree.

I also agree that it depends on the area. Being around London, there were few kittens available when I was looking. And of course most of the rescues wouldn't touch us with a barge pole, we don't meet the ridiculous criteria. No way would I pay stupid prices for a mog - this to me screams "in it for the money". But I paid a fair price for my boys from a family home. They obviously cared about the kittens, they were very well handled and the little boy cried when he realised we were there to collect them.

Overal, I would think a lot of the problem would be eased if the rescues could accept that very few cat lovers (or dog lovers for that matter) are filthy rich, home all day, no kids or other pets, massive enclosed garden in the country types. Believe me, there would be far fewer animals in rescue if "normal" people were allowed to adopt.


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

I have heard of one person who took a cat back from a new owner and rightly so. I know someone who sold a non active cat to a lady who happened to live really close to another breeder she knew, to cut a long story short the lady starting breeding unregistered animals from this cat and as there was a reason she was pet only she became unwell. (had a tummy condition and didnt need the added stress of motherhood) So she decided to drop in to see her friend who lived nearby and knocked on the ladys door who had her cat, to find a litter of undernourished kittens with dirty faces and bottoms and a mother cat who was skin and bone. After a lengthy conversation with her she told her she would be prepared to seek legal advice over it and involve the RSPCA the mother and all kittens were returned to breeder.

This is my worst nightmare situation.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes I agree Becky, I would have to take the cat back and I can be quite hot-headed at times so it would not be ideal, hence the early neutering. It would make my blood boil to find out someone was breeding from a pet girl.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I feel if breeders become too strict it will make people buy from BYBs. I will never buy an early neuterd kitten, I like all my animals to grow with natural hormoans I would respect the breeder and never breed the kitten if it was bought as a pet, so if all breeders early neuterd i'd have to go to byb


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## Themis (Dec 18, 2009)

Most rescue centre's that I looked at were asking for far too high a "donation". One place wanted £150 per kitten! I was looking for young kittens so they wouldn't have been neutered and I couldn't have afforded that on top of a £300 "donation".

I found mine from an ad and I still consider that I "rescued" them, because who knows where they would have ended up otherwise? I got them from a student house where they were kept in the cluttered and filthy kitchen. They were slightly underweight and had fleas.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Themis said:


> Most rescue centre's that I looked at were asking for far too high a "donation". One place wanted £150 per kitten! I was looking for young kittens so they wouldn't have been neutered and I couldn't have afforded that on top of a £300 "donation".
> 
> I found mine from an ad and I still consider that I "rescued" them, because who knows where they would have ended up otherwise? I got them from a student house where they were kept in the cluttered and filthy kitchen. They were slightly underweight and had fleas.


you have rescued them in my eyes too you have saved them from neglect. well done you .


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## Themis (Dec 18, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> you have rescued them in my eyes too you have saved them from neglect. well done you .[/
> 
> I just hope their 3 brothers found good homes too.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Themis said:


> DKDREAM said:
> 
> 
> > you have rescued them in my eyes too you have saved them from neglect. well done you .[/
> ...


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Katinkia said:


> Well I'm doing it but I've waited a long time to do so. I don't want to breed cats but *I want my family to experience a litter of kittens. * I've rescued many cats and spent thousands on vet fees for cats i've only ended up having for a short time.
> 
> The bottom line here is I personally think I've done my bit and I am not doing it for profit or anything else and we are keeping all the offspring. I wouldn't approve really of breeding them to make what £30 a kitten?


Why not just adopt or foster a pregnant cat? Or take them to a farm?

I am against all breeding of family pets. *All.*


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

I personally dont early neuter my kittens but i am very selective who they go to as you wouldn't believe the amount of people who buy pet pedigree animals and breed crosses its unreal! There is very often a reason a cat is pet only!

I can understand why some people early neuter.

I think rescue centres can be too picky on who they will re-home to. I looked for a rescue kitten a few years ago and was told I couldn't have a kitten under 9 months due to the fact i had a golden retriever. Nonsense in my opinion.

I also can see why they charge a high fee as the cost of keeping kittens in good health is high but can also see why it is off putting to people. Its a tough one.

It is the main reason i decided to wait and go for a pedigree BSH. I had always admired the breed and after a lot of research brought my first pet only male neuter he was fully vacc and wormed etc etc. Well worth every penny.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

becbec31 said:


> I personally dont early neuter my kittens but i am very selective who they go to as you wouldn't believe the amount of people who buy pet pedigree animals and breed crosses its unreal! There is very often a reason a cat is pet only!
> 
> I can understand why some people early neuter.
> 
> ...


I can too see why some early neuter but i dont personally agree with it I feel aslong as the cat dosent get abused/suffer then the owner has the rights to house the animal how they like i.e be intact or neuterd. I will never buy a pedigree under contract again, through a bad expierence and been ripped off and left heart broken.


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## Katinkia (Nov 30, 2009)

Fostering is an interesting proposition but since most rescue places don't like the fact I have three children, I'm not sure who would give me a pregnant cat to look after.

I accept that people wont agree with what I'm doing but all the offspring will be neutered and kept within my family. We are very much looking forward to it.


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Please don't take offense. I do not personally disagree with you breeding your pet as long as you like you have said take care of them and they will have nice homes.

I applaud you the prospect of potentially having 6 or 7 kittens running around for a year whilst they grow up is a daunting one.

I think some people have strong views because they have perhaps been burnt by less caring people or have seen suffering.

good luck with your kittens and please let us know how you get on.


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## Katinkia (Nov 30, 2009)

Well I admit, I'm hoping she has 4 or less lol! We are used to kittens and have a large house so I'm not worried. We are a crazy cat family. We have four cats at the moment and sadly lost two last year. My persian died and my feral wildcat died. Before Christmas I got a BSH boy who is beautiful (and neutered!).


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Oh lovely i have BSH's myself. They are a fabulous breed.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

I got accused of this by someone i know even though the cat i have thats pregnant was wandering around outside for 2 years as a very young cat I could stroke her and give her love but she wouldnt come in the house.. its only now at the age of 2 i have managed to coax her in my house and shes relised shes better of here with the warm fire and snuggly beds. Took her to get spayed (under protest lol) and he said she was about 5 weeks in kitten! So I am expecting a litter of 'moggies' any time now and she *will* be spayed when the kitties are weaned


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## becbec31 (Jun 26, 2009)

Well done for looking after her, in cases like these you are doing a great thing, it is the person who let her be stray and vulnerable that is at fault here not you. 

Good luck with your litter.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

becbec31 said:


> Well done for looking after her, in cases like these you are doing a great thing, it is the person who let her be stray and vulnerable that is at fault here not you.
> 
> Good luck with your litter.


Most likely she is the victim of someone allowing their family pet to breed. Kittens get dumped out side. Happens all the time.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't honestly think there is any great moral difference between breeding moggies or pedigree cats. Although pedigree breeders do so for the love of the breed, none of us do so because we hate it. we get a certain enjoyment from it or we wouldn't continue.

However, there are huge expenses involved in breeding pedigree kittens and it's a hobby which costs a lot of money. The taxman, local councils and other authorities know this as it's all been thoroughly investigated. Pedigree breeders breed with the hope/intention of producing cats to continually improve a particular breed and are lucky enough to recoup *some* of the expense through selling pet kittens. If you breed moggies with the sole intention of producing goods for sale then you *are* running a business and will have no defence if HMRC or your local council decide to question your activities.


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## Katinkia (Nov 30, 2009)

becbec31 said:


> Oh lovely i have BSH's myself. They are a fabulous breed.


Mine is called Banjo and is a brown spotted tabby I think the patterns called. He is my lap cat. Seems to have a detector for when I have a sit down cos he'll come out of nowhere and jump up. THen I have others on the back of the chair and the arms lol. It's very funny.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2010)

havoc said:


> I don't honestly think there is any great moral difference between breeding moggies or pedigree cats. Although pedigree breeders do so for the love of the breed, none of us do so because we hate it. we get a certain enjoyment from it or we wouldn't continue.


im afraid quite a lot do it because they cant be bothered to get their animal neutered, think they can make a bit of money etc, and they take no responsibility for the kittens once they are sold on.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> im afraid quite a lot do it because they cant be bothered to get their animal neutered, think they can make a bit of money etc, and they take no responsibility for the kittens once they are sold on.


I don't disagree with you and I wanted to make the point that those who produce goods for sale are laying themselves open to investigation. They are acting as a business and are therefore subject to all aspects of the Sale of Goods Act, are running a business from a residential dwelling and should be filing tax returns. They'd have no choice but take responsibility for the goods they sold if a buyer wished to take a complaint to the appropriate authorities.


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## dharma66 (Oct 25, 2009)

Rather than hijack this thread, I have a question about BSH for becbec31, or anyone else who knows the breed (alansw8 not the least).

Please see the thread: BSH and Neutering, in the 'health and nutrition section'.

Thanks.


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## ness1982 (Apr 26, 2010)

Shamen said:


> im afraid quite a lot do it because they cant be bothered to get their animal neutered, think they can make a bit of money etc, and they take no responsibility for the kittens once they are sold on.


I have to say I disagree. I have a moggie cat who has had a litter (planned and all had homes before hand), and I'm very picky about who 'qualifies' to own them. My baby is heavily pregnant now and again I have good homes for them (people I know and trust). I do not make any money from them and they are always wormed, flea'd and vaccinated. One of the owners of the impending litter is concerned about allergies and I have told her that if it doesn't work out I want the kitten back for my own peace of mind. It's been just over a year since her last litter and I personally don't see the problem all the while the owner is doing it for the right reasons and is responsible about it.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2010)

ness1982 said:


> I have to say I disagree. I have a moggie cat who has had a litter (planned and all had homes before hand), and I'm very picky about who 'qualifies' to own them. My baby is heavily pregnant now and again I have good homes for them (people I know and trust). I do not make any money from them and they are always wormed, flea'd and vaccinated. One of the owners of the impending litter is concerned about allergies and I have told her that if it doesn't work out I want the kitten back for my own peace of mind. It's been just over a year since her last litter and I personally don't see the problem all the while the owner is doing it for the right reasons and is responsible about it.


maybe if you'd worked in rescue as i have you'd change your mind.

good that you care about your kittens though


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ness1982 said:


> I have to say I disagree. I have a moggie cat who has had a litter (planned and all had homes before hand), and I'm very picky about who 'qualifies' to own them. My baby is heavily pregnant now and again I have good homes for them (people I know and trust). I do not make any money from them and they are always wormed, flea'd and vaccinated. One of the owners of the impending litter is concerned about allergies and I have told her that if it doesn't work out I want the kitten back for my own peace of mind. It's been just over a year since her last litter and I personally don't see the problem all the while the owner is doing it for the right reasons and is responsible about it.


Do you spay and neuter all those kittens from your little kitten factory before you give them to all these "good homes"? If not, you are responsible for every single kitten that comes from them, and the kittens that come from those kittens, and so on.

Please, stop adding to the problem. Not to mention what you are doing to your poor cat. With every litter she is at greater risk for pyometra, uterine cancer and breast cancer.

Poor little thing. There *are no right reasons* for breeding a family pet.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

lorilu said:


> Do you spay and neuter all those kittens* from your little kitten factory* before you give them to all these "good homes"? If not, you are responsible for every single kitten that comes from them, and the kittens that come from those kittens, and so on.
> 
> Please, stop adding to the problem. Not to mention what you are doing to your poor cat. With every litter she is at greater risk for pyometra, uterine cancer and breast cancer.
> 
> Poor little thing. There *are no right reasons* for breeding a family pet.


there was no need for that coment!x


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lorilu said:


> Do you spay and neuter all those kittens from your little kitten factory before you give them to all these "good homes"? If not, you are responsible for every single kitten that comes from them, and the kittens that come from those kittens, and so on.
> 
> Please, stop adding to the problem. Not to mention what you are doing to your poor cat. With every litter she is at greater risk for pyometra, uterine cancer and breast cancer.
> 
> Poor little thing. There *are no right reasons* for breeding a family pet.


In saying that are you referring to the UK only?

Because where i live we have only ONE rescue shelter (the one other has closed its doors) and we not inudated with cats. Yes we have recently had an influx of cats :frown: but nothing at all like the UK or anywhere else.

The shelter are so strict on re-homing (and i do not disagree) but i have been refused a cat or kitten because i have a young daughter, a dog, a cat, a rabbit, and a gerbil. I live in a house with a large garden and can keep cats indoors if thats is what is needed, But i still do not qualify.

Also over here there are only a handful of pedigree breeders, in ratio to kitten buyers. So should a lot of great homes remain catless?

The only other way of getting a kitten/cat is travelling to the UK to meet the breeder, then back again to pick the kitten up. A lot of people can afford a cat/kitten and its lifetime care but can not afford £200 plus each journey to travel to the UK as well.

So ''Moggie breeding'' does happen over here. I did it myself (i stopped a long time ago) but i did it just as well as any of the pedigree breeders. I still have contact with ALL my past kittens owners.

However i will also be the first to admit that there are very naive people over here and also downright ignorant people.

But please do not tar everyone with the same brush. Some members on here come from different places. And our ''rescue crisises'' are also different.

Just for math purposes there are over 60,000 people that live on this Island and ONE shelter that operates now. Only a fraction of these 60,000 breed pedigree cats...........


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## ness1982 (Apr 26, 2010)

lorilu said:


> Do you spay and neuter all those kittens from your little kitten factory before you give them to all these "good homes"? If not, you are responsible for every single kitten that comes from them, and the kittens that come from those kittens, and so on.
> 
> Please, stop adding to the problem. Not to mention what you are doing to your poor cat. With every litter she is at greater risk for pyometra, uterine cancer and breast cancer.
> 
> Poor little thing. There *are no right reasons* for breeding a family pet.


I didn't personally get the kittens spayed/neutered but that was part of the criteria when rehoming, and as they went to people I know, I still see the kittens and I know they have all been fixed.

Also there's a short supply of cats in the area, not to mention the high criteria the shelters have for the few cats they do have. I know people who have tried to rescue but been turned down because they have children. I understand they have rules for a reason but these are true cat lovers who can't rescue. I also would like to add that my queen is expecting her second litter, with over a years gap between the two. This is also going to be her last litter.


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## serenitylove (Nov 23, 2008)

ness1982 said:


> I didn't personally get the kittens spayed/neutered but that was part of the criteria when rehoming, and as they went to people I know, I still see the kittens and I know they have all been fixed.
> 
> Also there's a short supply of cats in the area, not to mention the high criteria the shelters have for the few cats they do have. I know people who have tried to rescue but been turned down because they have children. I understand they have rules for a reason but these are true cat lovers who can't rescue. I also would like to add that my queen is expecting her second litter, with over a years gap between the two. This is also going to be her last litter.


you dont have to justify yourself you are a responisble owner who has had kittens same as i have and weather pedigree or moggie most people on this part of forum breed some people for whatever reason seee the worst in everyone hope your litter arrives saftely


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## HelloKittys (Apr 16, 2009)

I agree,my moggie has just had a litter,and while she was pregnant,i found homes for all kittens,all going to family,except 1 that i might keep but if not,my mum wants her.they are wormed etc...The mum is getting spayed as soon as we can after kitty's no longer need her.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

This thread is an interesting read!



becbec31 said:


> I have heard of one person who took a cat back from a new owner and rightly so. I know someone who sold a non active cat to a lady who happened to live really close to another breeder she knew, to cut a long story short the lady starting breeding unregistered animals from this cat and as there was a reason she was pet only she became unwell. (had a tummy condition and didnt need the added stress of motherhood) So she decided to drop in to see her friend who lived nearby and knocked on the ladys door who had her cat, to find a litter of undernourished kittens with dirty faces and bottoms and a mother cat who was skin and bone. After a lengthy conversation with her she told her she would be prepared to seek legal advice over it and involve the RSPCA the mother and all kittens were returned to breeder.
> 
> This is my worst nightmare situation.


This story sounds very farmiliar to one I was told by the the lady I got Rilly from. Did the breeder taking back the cat and kittens live near the Lincs East Coast?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Having worked in rescue for many years, and having fostered many many many pregnant cats throughout the rest of their pregnancy and raised their kittens i am 100% AGAINST the breeding of "pets" whether that be unregistered pedigrees, peds on the non active, x bred peds or moggies (before anyone comments yes i know that breeders cats are pets too but there is a significant difference). I am also a supporter of early neutering, however thats entirely a different discussion and one thats been done to death on here. I dont say its necessary to early neuter, but to me its preferable.

Now i realise that there are some smaller uk islands which do not have a cat population problem, and there i can see that there might be a need to breed moggies, but only if its done correctly. Are the cats fully tested? are they fully vaccinated?, are the kittens kept until all the initial vaccinations are completed? or as is more common are they tossed to their new homes somewhere between 6-8 weeks old? (this is not aimed at any individual).

As for the comment about not being allowed to foster? what utter rubbish! If you qualify to home one of the cats you would qualify to foster! I have 2 young children, one of whome is disabled, i'm a single parent (i can see the sneers on some of your faces now), i have 2 dogs and my own cats. If you really really want to foster, there will be a rescue who's rules are adaptable on an individual basis.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> As for the comment about not being allowed to foster? what utter rubbish! If you qualify to home one of the cats you would qualify to foster!


And many many people do not qualify to home animals from the great majority of rescues, that is the problem. Two of the best homes I could ever imagine for a dog were turned down when they wanted to adopt a dog. In one case the shelter just kept making excuses about why none of the dogs was suitable until they finally got the message The reason? possibly that the couple concerned were in their early 60s, or possibly because one of them looked a bit odd, being heavily into tattoos and body piercing. Their dogs got four walks a day, two of them long walks, and they had a large enclosed garden and used the most expensive vet in the area, begrudging no expense. In the other case the single retired lady was told she could not have even a small dog because she lived in a flat - this despite the flat having its own private enclosed garden. She too was into going for long walks with the dog in open fields. There are vast numbers of similar stories. I daresay I would have been refused a cat from rescue when I got my first "own" cat 18 years ago because I was a tenant living in a Housing Association flat. Until rescues become MUCH more flexible, there will remain a demand for moggy kittens.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

and as usual you have missed the END of my post! There will be a rescue out there who's rules are adaptable to fit for you!

Not every rescue is so inflexible!


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Of course not all rescues have the long list of rules - but most have at least some, especially if you are after a kitten.

When we were looking only a few rescues would have turned us away on every count - but with all of them there was at least one thing wrong. Some are no renters. Some no workers. Some no flats / indoor homes.
So as we work and live in a flat under the shared ownership scheme nobody wanted to know.

The fact our flat is cat friendly, we have written permission from the landlord, our working hours overlap due to OH shiftwork so they're NOT left all day every day, we wanted 2 kittens anyway to keep eachother company, OH has had cats before (also in flats) and the fact that being indoors the cats would not be at risk of RTAs, anti-freeze or other poisoning, getting attacked by other animals or stuck up trees or in sheds, etc. None of this mattered.

Believe me I would have rescued my kittens - would have freed up two more spaces in a rescue, and paid an extortionate adoption fee for the priveledge - but not one deemed us "good enough".


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Colette said:


> Of course not all rescues have the long list of rules - but most have at least some, especially if you are after a kitten.
> 
> When we were looking only a few rescues would have turned us away on every count - but with all of them there was at least one thing wrong. Some are no renters. Some no workers. Some no flats / indoor homes.
> So as we work and live in a flat under the shared ownership scheme nobody wanted to know.
> ...


This is precisely what I faced when I decided I wanted a cat. So I went to a reputable breeder of a purebred breed & got a kitten that way. I also had to have a kitten that was okay with a dog & it worked out fantastically.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> and as usual you have missed the END of my post! There will be a rescue out there who's rules are adaptable to fit for you!
> 
> Not every rescue is so inflexible!


Maybe not, but by the time people have been turned away by two or three, it's hardly surprising that they go elsewhere, is it?

Liz


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> Maybe not, but by the time people have been turned away by two or three, it's hardly surprising that they go elsewhere, is it?
> 
> Liz


i know what you mean as I was and also i felt they asked too much for donation moggies you can pick up for 10-15 pound if not even free I feel rescues make a rod for their own back they are too strict maybe if not then people would choose to adopt more.


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 28, 2010)

Im still waiting for a phonecall from the cats protection. Passed the home-check (OH is disabled so home all day and i work part-time) and was told they'd call thursday to let me know if they had a cat the age i would like in shelter. 

I know they have because i was there a few weeks ago with my mum when she went to get hers, they had LOADS between 6 and 12 months. 

That was on thursday so OH called today and left a message.. 

If i haven't heard anything in 4 weeks im going to look for a moggie kitten bred at home by someone. I know its leaving a poor kitty in a cage but i can't exactly walk in and take one from the shelter can i? 

Catch 22


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't see an issue with breeding moggies, as long as :


the breeder stands by every kitten they allow to be born. That would include fighting tooth and nail to do everything possible for those kittens ie hand feeding them every 2hrs for the first 4 weeks of their lives of required - which also means educating themselves as to what to expect and how to deal issues before they mate their cat
all kittens are sold as healthy as possible, well socialised and preferably vaccinated for their own protection to forever homes where the new owners clearly understand the hopefully 15yr+ committment they are making
for a planned mating the Mother is not just allowed to wander the streets mating any Tom, Dick or Harry exposing her to a variety of diseases and dangers
 Mum is not left to be bare pawed and pregnant her whole life churning out kittens for profit
the cost of the kittens recoup the cost of their upbringing only

I agree its the owners right whether to neuter/spay their cat, but they are completely irresponsible if they then allow that cat to wander the streets unchecked. If you prefer to keep a cat entire, keep him/her contained in your house and garden.

I think in some areas/Countries rescue situations are at crisis point. However, just how many of those cats/kittens were placed in there for reasons of genunine need where the owner had no other option having exhausted all other avenues? I am willing to bet a very small percentage. The rest will be placed there simply because the owners can no longer be bothered and thats the easiest option.

Its not conscientious breeders that are responsible for filling rescues its the grown adults that buy the cute kitten without giving full thought to the responsibility they are taking on. We seem to live in a disposible society and that sadly there a large group of people that apply that to living beings as much as objects.


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

:thumbup: great post - well said!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

sootisox said:


> :thumbup: great post - well said!


Very true and nice to see you back too. Not that I had noticed you were gone......


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

As someone who has owned two "rescue" Maine Coon's. First Maine Coon was offered spayed due to her not being a suitable size for breeding (she was very small for being a Maine Coon) and the second was her cousin twice removed who was offered to me spayed after she had complications giving birth and all the kittens died along with a very heavy vet bill for the breeder. 

So it isnt just the Moggie cats of Britain that have suffered at the hands of people breeding just because they can. Yet I am not against breeding in any form.

I am strong believer that the average moggie represents something much older and much more valuble than pedigree cats that have been selectivly bred indoors for generations. 

Moggie's represent the natural history of all cats, the very reason for them evolving from the African Wild Cat into the species the domestic cat has become. The one true purpose of a cat throughout human history is to keep rodent populations under control. 

Spayed feral cats today are offered to farmers around the Country as quality vermin control. All the farmer has to do in return is ensure the cat has access to water, food, verterinary care (if needed) and somewhere on his land as a suitable shelter. 

In the cities and towns domestic, strays and ferals help control rat and mice populations and personally I am certain that without the average Moggie we would have major verim problems across the country. (Most people who own a pedigree won't allow them out to face the risk of getting stolen or taking in by a stranger)

The only way to ensure the Moggie's skills and diversity survives into the future alongside mankind is to let them be as natural as possible without neglecting them.

Countless Moggie owners allow them to breed randomly which in my eyes is their own decision as owners but them owners should take the same responsability as a pedigree breeder.

They should never allow a cat to breed that has genetic defects.

They should never let a kitten leave their care under 8 weeks.

They should be prepared for the costly care of a cat that needs veterinary emgergency care

They should be prepared to take kittens/fully grown cats back that can no longer be cared for

Sadly too many Moggie breeders don't follow the pedigree breeders rules and that is why so many unwanted cats are in shelters and that is why so many breeders question if the Moggie should ever be allowed to continue to be bred...

:aureola:


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

This thread is ancient


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

I don't have a problem with Moggy breeding as such, as there are people out there that do not want a pedigree. 

My problem with Moggy breeders are the ones that think they can cut corners, not care for the mums or their babies properly. That look at their cats and kittens as being a "nice little earner" 

it upsets me to see poor sickly kittens advertised as rare or special, that are being kept in squalid conditions, or girls that are bred and bred and bred.

Im not saying that every moggy breeder out there is so callus and uncaring but I rather think its of the majority rather than the minority.

just noticed that this is a very old, thread...oh well


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm rather surprised people haven't bred 2 different breed cats and given them a daft name to earn a few quid... similar to the designer dog polava


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

Dingle said:


> I'm rather surprised people haven't bred 2 different breed cats and given them a daft name to earn a few quid... similar to the designer dog polava


I believe the Seregheti (cant spell it) is a real breed but a person local to me was selling "Serengettie's" a litter of kittens crossed between the bengal and the siamese for £450 each

Mother was the bengal and father was the siamese


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

geordiegaviino said:


> I believe the Seregheti (cant spell it) is a real breed but a person local to me was selling "Serengettie's" a litter of kittens crossed between the bengal and the siamese for £450 each
> 
> Mother was the bengal and father was the siamese


The Serengeti Is a breed in its own right, it is a cross between the Bengal & oriental, and breeders have several generations of them already, NO Siamese were ever used in that cat!!

And the daft name, yes its already started: raggamese (ragdoll x Siamese £400) Ragcoons (ragdoll x maine coons £350) pixegals (pixie bob x Bengal £600 each!!!!!!) (they were actually moggies they had about 30 of them)

however you don't know if the parents are pedigree and no health tests are ever done :frown2:

This thread is so old! I don't know or have heard of anyone breeding moggies in a good way, all seem to be random matings for a bit of cash, given away early or 'accidents'


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Closed this old thread


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