# girl of 6 savaged in dog attack



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

just read this on yahoo news hope she makes a speedy recovery

Girl, six, is savaged in dog attack - Yahoo!


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

i have left many comments on peoples replies,so sick of peopple saying that these dogs are savage and should be wearing muzzles.
i do hope the girl makes a quick recovery but the owner is at fault here


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

this is just by where i live and it is awful. 

it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.

i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Bet the Daily Mail are already looking through their archives for the photo of the snarling dog they usually use.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


Im sorry but I don't believe that. Yes there are a lot of instances of these incidents that involve bull breeds, but IMO that is only because bull breeds are idiot owners breed of choice at the moment?? I have no doubt that if all the chav dickheads decided they were all getting Yorkshire terrier to make them look hard, then bull breed incidents would soon be replaced by Yorkshire terrier incidents


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It doesnt sound like it was a staffie or a pit bull type. It was a bull terrier. Very sad and I hope the owner is caught and the dog is put to sleep. And the owner should be definitely put in prison.

Absolutely disgusting.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I do hope the poor little girl is ok .
Another prick on 2 legs that needs putting to sleep!


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is *usually one type of dog that does it*.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


Not quite just one type.

Of the top of my head, I can name a few types that have resulted in injury or death.

Jack Russell
Lab
Staffie
Pitbull
Akita
German Shepherd
Husky
Rottie


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

Poor girl, I hope she makes a speedy recovery. And I also hope the stupid idiot owner that thought it was ok to walk away is found and locked up!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

The article said it was a bull terrier (so in my mind, that means an English Bull Terrier, as I'm sure it would mean to others). But on BBC News, they said it was a pit bull terrier.  Do they not know, so are they just saying pit bull to scare people?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Kivasmum said:


> Im sorry but I don't believe that. Yes there are a lot of instances of these incidents that involve bull breeds, but IMO that is only because bull breeds are idiot owners breed of choice at the moment?? I have no doubt that if all the chav dickheads decided they were all getting Yorkshire terrier to make them look hard, then bull breed incidents would soon be replaced by Yorkshire terrier incidents


yes, i understand the idiots who get them and this happens but there are instances of long standing family dogs suddenly turning and attacking.

there is a difference too as a yorkie could never get that much strength on a child, the parents gave an interview and said both of them couldnt pry the dog off the little girl.

the owner is to blame but the dog is responsible too.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


 hmy: hmy: *shakes head* can't think of anything to say to be honest...

hope the little one makes a speedy recovery


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Sorry to keep blurting in 

For anyone (not aimed at anyone in particular, but more in advance than anything) who is automatically going to assume it was a staffie, or indeed if it does turn out to be a staffie and then we get the anti-staffie brigade.

Go find me two breeds of dog that the KC note their great suitability with children.



Or you could just save time and realise there is only one breed where the KC do make such remarks...................The Staffordshire Bull Terrier.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> , i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i.


That is not always true! And sure that owners get sick to the back teeth of hearing this said!

When I was a child and someone was bitten by a dog it would always be a 'black lab' type! YET it seldom was!

I think unless people know for sure the breed of the dog they should be more careful in how they describe it!

Just my view!

And for the the information of some small dogs CAN do damage too, my mothers toy poodle (and yep! I know it were a full toy poodle) attacked my elderly mother whislt she sleep and caused a hell of a mess, my mother passing out!

ALL DOGS CAN BITE

That off my chest! hope the little girl makes a full recovery and is not left scared either mentally or physically

BUT Disgusting the owner did a runner!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

lets not assume it's any particular breed.....it could be a bleeding Donkey for all the papers would know

best lock mine away now...just in-case she savages my daughter


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

All breeds can bite, ive seen a little yorky really go for it! They are very quick and can do a lot of damage in a very small space of time. 
I still stand by it is the owners that are at fault. 
Really hope this little girl gets well soon.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Poor little girl, what an absolute coward of an owner.
I know some people will say it's a certain 'type' of dog, but I think there is a high correlation between idiots (as in the sort of people who shouldn't be allowed to have responsibility for a potted plant let alone an animal) being drawn to these dogs, probably not helped by the media. I'm not a bull breed owner myself, but I love all dogs & feel for these breeds & their owners (the majority of who are responsible) who are getting made scapegoats because of some muppets


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> lets not assume it's any particular breed.....it could be a bleeding Donkey for all the papers would know
> 
> best lock mine away now...just in-case she savages my daughter


((((hugs)))) to you & Mavis, I've yet to meet a nasty bull terrier xx


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> ((((hugs)))) to you & Mavis, I've yet to meet a nasty bull terrier xx


Thanks xx

it just really pisses me off big time... ..as i guess it does, most resposible bull breed owners ...

wonder if it had been a different breed ...would there have been as much attention, probably not


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## harrys_mum (Aug 18, 2010)

how on earth did the owner see this attack on the girl and walk away.
michelle x


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

round here there have been several (though not many major) Husky attacks recently - the reason? all the eejit BYB selling poorly bred/inbred sometimes even cross bred 'huskies' to idiot owners who are completely unsuitable but it's the 'ard dog of choice' with the chavs now

In the past year there have been 14 husky types in the local pound unclaimed because people don't understand they are an on-lead only dog

There has been one road fatality because they hit a husky type

The 'attacks' on various people in some cases did a lot of damage - they are biggish dogs with a lot of power so it only takes one snap to inflict a lot of damage

All this does not mean that I think huskies are dangerous - their idiot owners should at least be neutered and their kids too to prevent the Eejit Gene spreading further

I really hope the little girl is better and that her parents make sure she is exposed to friendly, gently dogs to prevent a phobia developing


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> Thanks xx
> 
> it just really pisses me off big time... ..as i guess it does, most resposible bull breed owners ...
> 
> *wonder if it had been a different breed ...would there have been as much attention, probably not*


I don't believe so. if it was a german shepherd, it would still be in the news. if it was a lab, it would still be in the news. a girl has been mauled, so whatever breed, it would have been reported.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> ((((hugs)))) to you & Mavis, I've yet to meet a nasty bull terrier xx


Same from me too!


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Plus to be fair we do not know the background to the story.

From reports it happened in a park (which is not the norm with these stories, which usually happen at home with the family or the "uncles" dog)"

Did the victim's parents also have a dog which could of got into a scuffle and the victim was in the way?

Did the victim do anything to provoke the attack, such as tease the dog and then not take note of any warning from the dog? Of course by that I am not saying she deserved it, at 6 years old she would not know when a dog is getting wound up etc and when to back off.

Could be a number of reasons etc.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

The stigma attached to all bull breeds is a joke!!! The post man always rushes at my house, regardless of mine not flinching My kids have pulled, pushed, sat on just to name a few, and never had a reaction from them. 
Must admit, i am starting to meet some lovely people on my walks with them that are actually allowing their pooches to come and sniff  But was completely different a couple of months ago, they would walk in a different direction from me  Looks like it will all start again!!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I hope the little girl makes a good recovery and the dog and owner get caught.


Any type of dog is capable of biting the question is do the girls parents know what breeds look like or have they just said bull type because it is always highly publised when these breeds do bite.

As a child I was bitten by a beagle that dog chased and tried to bite me every time it saw me but never chased anyone else. What did I do to it? Nothing I delivered his owners newspaper and never had a problem until their other dog came into season.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

there's also the classic - dog may not be great with kids but not actually agressive so not muzzled - screaming 6 year old suddenly hugs dog, dog panics = disaster

however the owner should have either given contact details for police even if he had to get the dog away or stayed until they arrived - *if* there was a 'valid' reason for the dog to attack then he should have told the police


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

All they know is that the dog is black and white. Everything else is built on eye witness testimony which is notoriously unreliable, and guess work/assumption. 

If in doubt, blame in on a bull breed. Keeps the BSL BS alive and kicking.

I do hope the poor girl makes a full recovery.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't believe so. if it was a german shepherd, it would still be in the news. if it was a lab, it would still be in the news. a girl has been mauled, so whatever breed, it would have been reported.


I don't agree, my friend's daughter was attacked by a border collie, she had nasty lacerations to her face & the bite narrowly missed her eye, it didn't make the local papers let alone the national ones.
People love a scapegoat & the media enjoys whipping up a frenzy (it's their bread & butter after all), what better way to do it than cause a rift in the dog owning populace, ie owners of certain breeds are all bad & irresponsible, the dogs are a menace etc etc
I can't remember the last time a lab made the nationals for attacking a child, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

look at which picture the Sun has chosen to use in their article:

Girl, 6, loses ear in dog attack | The Sun |News


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


Am shocked by this from a fellow dog owner.

Why is it happening because arseholes have got there hands on bull breeds and using them as weapons, this is not the bloody dogs fault that it has been raised by a **** and should not be responsible for anything, if the owner had his dog under control it would not have happened.

Lying dormant that is utter crap.

Any dog can bite even your precious dogs could if brought up incorrectly so please. all dogs can bite from yorkshire terriers too great danes why do the smaller dogs attacks not get put in the press because yes the damage they do is not as bad as the damage a bigger dog can do dosnt mean it cant attack thou does is. 
Mine have been attacked by small dogs and never gone back at them so i think that tells you something for starters

being the owner of 2 staffys and knowing plenty of people who have staffords and none of which are human agressisive.

I really am utterly shocked at this statement.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Think the owner should of stayed regardless who is to blame etc, not done himself any favours by leaving the scene.

But I am trying to think what I would do if I was the owner of a dog who had just attacked someone.

It is easy to think I would stay, but unless I was actually in that situation I am not sure. Maybe the thought of "they are going to take my dog off me and put him/her to sleep" would make me get away as soon as possible.

However I would like to think if I did leave, my guilt would make me then hand myself and the dog in to the police at a later stage.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't believe so. if it was a german shepherd, it would still be in the news. if it was a lab, it would still be in the news. a girl has been mauled, so whatever breed, it would have been reported.


I agree of course it would. The thing is there is so many staffie attacks not because of the staffie as a breed itself but the fact they look the "part" for these "wannabe"hard men.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

when doing my Animal Management course we found out the 5 top breeds (technically 6 breeds) for causing hospital treatment in 2009 were

(in no particular order)

Yorkshire Terrier
Labrador Retriever
Cocker Spaniel/Springer Spaniel (were combined as people confused the breeds when reporting bites... *how*?)
Jack Russel
Staffie


The reason these are the top 'dangerous' breeds? they are the most common breeds kept in the UK! the vast majority of hospitalised injuries were fall related, dogs taking their owners feet from under them. Only 18%-22% of dog related injuries treated in A&E were bites

These are only rough figures as I don't have all the figures to hand

I'm only 27 but when I was a kid all the media 'dog attacks' were 'of german shepherd type' regardless of actual breed


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't believe so. if it was a german shepherd, it would still be in the news. if it was a lab, it would still be in the news. a girl has been mauled, so whatever breed, it would have been reported.


yes i believe so too its just what has happened, im sure if a rough collie had bitten an ear of of a little girl it would be reported.

also to who said their postman rushes past their bull type dog, our postman is scared of our rough collie and our delivery man, they are both just petrified of dogs!

also when people say they love a frenzy, how many attacks on other dogs are not being reported in the news, i believe very many as many cant even be reported to anyone.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> look at which picture the Sun has chosen to use in their article:
> 
> Girl, 6, loses ear in dog attack | The Sun |News


Fantastic! Why would I have expected to see anything else? I didnt even need to take a look really.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Just look at the related stories on the Sun's coverage (link posted earlier by another member).

A Malamute and a German Shepherd.............not a bull type in sight


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

BullyMolly said:


> The stigma attached to all bull breeds is a joke!!! The post man always rushes at my house, regardless of mine not flinching My kids have pulled, pushed, sat on just to name a few, and never had a reaction from them.
> Must admit, i am starting to meet some lovely people on my walks with them that are actually allowing their pooches to come and sniff  But was completely different a couple of months ago, they would walk in a different direction from me  Looks like it will all start again!!


I understand what you are saying, but i have to be honest here and i know all dogs can do damage if they wanted to but i would feel much easier walking down someones path to be faced with a lab,springer ect than a bull breed, yes because of what we hear i suppose, its going to take a lot for this stigma to disappear, i walk my dogs with 3 other staffies quite a lot and ile be honest have never had any cause to worry for myself or my dogs the dogs are lovely and so are the owners, other than the one that attacked molly in december and 1 look at the owner you wouldnt be suprised the dog is like it is.

Police attitudes could help with this problem more.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2012)

I hope the little girl is ok.

I'm shocked the owner just went off, it's the owner who is too blame in my eyes not the dog.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes i believe so too its just what has happened, im sure if a rough collie had bitten an ear of of a little girl it would be reported.
> 
> also to who said their postman rushes past their bull type dog, our postman is scared of our rough collie and our delivery man, they are both just petrified of dogs!
> 
> also when people say they love a frenzy, *how many attacks on other dogs* are not being reported in the news, i believe very many as many cant even be reported to anyone.


As in dog-on-dog attacks? There was one recently involving a Rhodesian Ridgeback that was in the news IIRC, as for unreported ones my own dogs have been attacked once (lab ripped my GSD's ear open) & nearly attacked (by another lab), from those deductions it would appear (to me) that labs are dog aggressive, which obviously isn't true as I have common sense enough to realise that not all labs are like that. Dog aggression being different to people aggression asides, how much of the media reading population, especially those who aren't dog owners or involved with dogs, would bother to dig deeper to look for solid facts, rather than just accepting what's written at face value


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I understand what you are saying, but i have to be honest here and i know all dogs can do damage if they wanted to but i would feel much easier walking down someones path to be faced with a lab,springer ect than a bull breed, yes because of what we hear i suppose, its going to take a lot for this stigma to disappear, i walk my dogs with 3 other staffies quite a lot and ile be honest have never had any cause to worry for myself or my dogs the dogs are lovely and so are the owners, other than the one that attacked molly in december and 1 look at the owner you wouldnt be suprised the dog is like it is.
> 
> Police attitudes could help with this problem more.


I have to agree here. although most staffies I come across with Ollie are fantastic dogs, my heart does race when we meet a staffie, whereas it wouldn't if we met a lab or springer.  But I do let Ollie meet staffies, i don't avoid them unless the owner wants to avoid us, at which point, I do walk in a different direction (but I would do this with any breed of dog).


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Am shocked by this from a fellow dog owner.
> 
> Why is it happening because arseholes have got there hands on bull breeds and using them as weapons, this is not the bloody dogs fault that it has been raised by a **** and should not be responsible for anything, if the owner had his dog under control it would not have happened.
> 
> ...


im sorry to offend, i didnt mean your dogs were vicious. when i was walking with someone in the park she said she used to own some bull breeds but she was still wary of them around her dogs as as she said 'they can always turn'.

what you said is what i mean they do far more damage then other dogs.

'even your precious dogs could if brought up incorrectly' i didnt say anything about my precious dog, i didnt bring other breeds into it, i dont know what breed did this and im sure everyone on here thinks their dog is precious anyway. i just think its awful is all.

maybe though some breeds if not brought up responsibly do more harm then others who are not. say if a bichon wasnt brought up well it maybe wouldnt do very much in the way of attacking.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> Think the owner should of stayed regardless who is to blame etc, not done himself any favours by leaving the scene.
> 
> But I am trying to think what I would do if I was the owner of a dog who had just attacked someone.
> 
> ...


Ive been in that position, we had adog that went for 3 children in total bit 2 and i made the decision to put him to sleep myself, no way should any dog live if it attacks children for no reason at all.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I understand what you are saying, but i have to be honest here and i know all dogs can do damage if they wanted to but i would feel much easier walking down someones path to be faced with a lab,springer ect than a bull breed, yes because of what we hear i suppose, its going to take a lot for this stigma to disappear, i walk my dogs with 3 other staffies quite a lot and ile be honest have never had any cause to worry for myself or my dogs the dogs are lovely and so are the owners, other than the one that attacked molly in december and 1 look at the owner you wouldnt be suprised the dog is like it is.
> 
> Police attitudes could help with this problem more.


I do agree with what your saying, me and the other half have just been discussing this and for people with certain breeds it may be beneficial to do more checks on the owners and ensure they responsible owners. Ive seen many "fools" with bull breeds and it infuriates me  But for the best part bull breeds, as you have said, are lovely. My girl has a very poorly paw at the moment and Ive told my kids to give her space and not bug her. What has she done. . . . . come and lay on my six year olds lap for comfort!!! Still, and will always stand by "its the owners fault".


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> Just look at the related stories on the Sun's coverage (link posted earlier by another member).
> 
> A Malamute and a German Shepherd.............not a bull type in sight


'Child attacked after she playfully pulled the dogs tail' So you can hurt a dog and then get shocked when it retaliates. I blame the owners once again!

Enough said, no matter what breed or reason, I just hope the poor child is ok. She will be very traumatised along with anyone else who saw it happen.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> im sorry to offend, i didnt mean your dogs were vicious. when i was walking with someone in the park she said she used to own some bull breeds but she was still wary of them around her dogs as as she said 'they can always turn'.
> 
> what you said is what i mean they do far more damage then other dogs.
> 
> ...


First they wont just turn!!!!!!!

Yes they can do more damage than other breeds but the fact is brought up incorrectly any dog is a ticking time bomb yorkie, staffy or other breed.
FInd this funny only yesterday i was walking my 3 and i came accross a bloke with a small terrier yapping and pulling whilst my 3 just stood at the side not even interested in the dog. 
We reguly walk past a big bloke with a small chi the dog barks yaps trys too get too mine again mine ignore and carry on.
So its not in there blood/genes/laying dormant too attack another animal or dog its how a dog is raised.

No you didnt bring your dogs into it by i did because i was making a point that your dogs have the potential too attack if in the wrong hands.

Im sure a bichon could cause a fair bit of damage, maybe not too the amount of a staffy or similar breed but it could still mean someone needing surgery.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I saw my nans elderly neighbour attcked by a dog, everyone was saying that it was a bull breed, i was there and saw the dog and told everyone it was a black lab  the bloke who had the dog told it to attack the man and his chi, when there are royal dickheads like that walking around no one is safe. It seems that everyones reaction to a dog attack these days is to blame bull breeds


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

haeveymolly said:


> Ive been in that position, we had adog that went for 3 children in total bit 2 and i made the decision to put him to sleep myself, no way should any dog live if it attacks children for no reason at all.


Yeah I agree if there was no reason for the attack.

But like I said earlier in this instance we do not know if there was a reason, the girl why of been teasing the dog etc . Again I stress this does not make her at fault for the dogs actions.

But yes if I was the owner and there was no reason I guess I personally would make the same decision you did. But I still would not know unless I was in the same position as this owner concerned whether I would stay or leave the scene, but with a good chance I would hand myself in at a later stage. I would like to think I would stay though, but guess the parents would not want you that near by i.e " Get that &*^%ing dog away from here" so maybe wait out of sight until the police arrived or something.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I think it normal is a bull breed because the chav type owners seem to think its ok to train them this way  More so then the breed its self. 

Staffs are so commen more and more people are breeding them without any care or consideration of the breed Many arent walked, socialised and treated like poop by these type of owners. 

its the type of owner that needs the blame not the dog breed  I love staffs we have recently had the pleasure of meeting a lovely bitch thats helped my own dog with his problem with them (hes been attacked by them before again the owners are to blame!) 

My daughter was growled at by a lab the other day even tho the owner said it was fine, But was licked to an inch of her life by a huge staff whos only damage to you wouldve been whip lash by his tail lol! Nearly all the staffs here are amazing with Kids!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

BullyMolly said:


> I do agree with what your saying, me and the other half have just been discussing this and for people with certain breeds it may be beneficial to do more checks on the owners and ensure they responsible owners. Ive seen many "fools" with bull breeds and it infuriates me  But for the best part bull breeds, as you have said, are lovely. My girl has a very poorly paw at the moment and Ive told my kids to give her space and not bug her. What has she done. . . . . come and lay on my six year olds lap for comfort!!! Still, and will always stand by "its the owners fault".


 Awwwww bless her. The owners fault, i always see it that way and what actually infuriates me is that the poilce dont see it that way, they have told me that they dont do anything with a dog on dog attack, well that isnt the rule that all depends on them,themselves, but when we described the owners reaction and attitude to his staffie attacking my springer, i think alarm bells should ring, because you know what it could be someone like that this poor little girl next.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> Yeah I agree if there was no reason for the attack.
> 
> But like I said earlier in this instance we do not know if there was a reason, the girl why of been teasing the dog etc . Again I stress this does not make her at fault for the dogs actions.
> 
> But yes if I was the owner and there was no reason I guess I personally would make the same decision you did. But I still would not know unless I was in the same position as this owner concerned whether I would stay or leave the scene, but with a good chance I would hand myself in at a later stage. I would like to think I would stay though, but guess the parents would not want you that near by i.e " Get that &*^%ing dog away from here" so maybe wait out of sight until the police arrived or something.


No i wasnt meaning this dog attacked for no reason, i was refering to mine none of the children did anything to him at all was no where near him the first time, he was just extremely badly bred........again a humans fault, bless him he was a beautifull dog i have to say he was rehomed the day he was booked in to be pts he was only 11 months old and he lived a wonderfull life till he was 14 yrs old, anyway thats taking this off topic sorry.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Awwwww bless her. The owners fault, i always see it that way and what actually infuriates me is that the poilce dont see it that way, they have told me that they dont do anything with a dog on dog attack, well that isnt the rule that all depends on them,themselves, but when we described the owners reaction and attitude to his staffie attacking my springer, i think alarm bells should ring, because you know what it could be someone like that this poor little girl next.


Thank you, and yes they still should look into dog on dog attacks. A friend of mine was walking his shar pei and bull terrier, and a pit bull was wondering over for a sniff (thats all!) but the owner let out an almighty sream at her dog, a pit bull, so then in turn went into attack mode and ripped holy hell out of the shar pei  My friend quickly removed the bull terrier, them went on to seperate the two all the while the pit bull owner was just shouting and screaming!! Luckily my friends pooch is ok, but once again, bad owner


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

BullyMolly said:


> Thank you, and yes they still should look into dog on dog attacks. A friend of mine was walking his shar pei and bull terrier, and a pit bull was wondering over for a sniff (thats all!) but the owner let out an almighty sream at her dog, a pit bull, so then in turn went into attack mode and ripped holy hell out of the shar pei  My friend quickly removed the bull terrier, them went on to seperate the two all the while the pit bull owner was just shouting and screaming!! Luckily my friends pooch is ok, but once again, bad owner


The staffies owner that attacked molly was laughing all the time molly was screaming and had blood pouring from her mouth, they are the ones that have done all this damage to the bull breeds.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Well most of you know I adore the staffy and bull breeds and have MET plently of them, only twice - we have had run in's with them, BOTH full staffies I add, and that is out of plenty of miles walking!

The first, NOT really an attack an 'obvious' summer day walker, dressed up to the nines tottering in the field on high heels! The dog raged towards us like a bull we had three weimys with us, my son (yep hes stong hauled one of ours (that would have had a go) up about his head but the staffy stopped dead in front of me then just continued to show agression but NO contact was made, the dog completely ignored the owner and when she finally caught up she apolygised profusely - I do remember putting this on here as old DT when this happened.

The next time - also put on the forum before.
Out will just milly, met a lovely guy (not a thug) and milly and his little staffy were playing great together! Same the same man a week or so later when we had two dogs out, it too charged towards us, but this time did go for my other do.

I add there was no damage done EITHER times.

My oldest dog however has been bitten (not attacted) several times and it have ALWAYS been by smaller lap 'type dogs! the owners often older people, laughing about how tuff their little dog is! BLOODY good job some of these don't own bigger dogs is all I'll say

The problem is that these breeds DO fall into the wrong hands, and its a crying shame!

Do I trust staffies NO not hundred percent i don't no! BUT I wouldn't trust ANY dog 100%

Also - there is a member on here who i have met She has a lovely little staffie cross rescue - we met up when my milly was a year old and she was bouncy and wild and leapt al over this dog! She was only playing but plays rough it would have served her right if he had told her off but he never ever warned her!
That little dog is a credit to its owner and I seem to remember they passed the 3rd KC citizen a while back!!
Shows what can be done with these lovely dogs in the RIGHT hands!

just to add JRT, ESS and a Border Collier have also had a go at my boy - they seldom bother milly though!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> First they wont just turn!!!!!!!
> 
> Yes they can do more damage than other breeds but the fact is brought up incorrectly any dog is a ticking time bomb yorkie, staffy or other breed.
> FInd this funny only yesterday i was walking my 3 and i came accross a bloke with a small terrier yapping and pulling whilst my 3 just stood at the side not even interested in the dog.
> ...


thats all i meant they do much more damage.

i never said it like my dog was perfect, although rough collies would hardly ever attack, even in defence, they really cant be trained that way.

saying its how its raised, i do know some da staffs who are in the same homes and raised as other non aggressive ones so i think a bred for temperament should come into it, there are some awful breeders producing dogs with ill temperaments.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> The staffies owner that attacked molly was laughing all the time molly was screaming and had blood pouring from her mouth, they are the ones that have done all this damage to the bull breeds.


Makes your bloody blood boil!

Think I would have gone for them!
Sorry your poor molly had to suffer this HM xx


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi everyone, 

I've just joined to have a yarn about this subject and the way the media portray and the general ignorance surrounding these incidents gets my back up! I'll copy below a comment I made on the metro's article about this poor girl.

It's so awful and no one should have to go through such an ordeal. I hope the girl makes a full and speedy recovery. What makes me angry is the irresponsible owner and the way that it's the dog that gets villified. Balanced dogs (and even a lot of imbalanced dogs too) don't just attack unprovoked. They just don't, it's not in their nature. What some humans view as provocation however can be very different from what actually provokes an imbalanced dog - just excitement like a child running and jumping for example can be perceived as danger in the eyes of a dog. The sad thing is, the dog has obviously not been raised properly by a knowledgable owner and must have seen the girl as a threat for what ever reason so was just acting to protect himself and his owner. The girls' parents then probably only did what comes naturally to humans and panicked which anyone who understands dog psychology will know would only escalate the situation by making the dog sense more fear which translates into more of a perceived threat to the dog. The fact that the owner fled the scene and hasnt owned up just says it all. He's clearly too irresponsible and ignorant to be in charge of an animal. In the right hands a dog (ANY breed - it's not a breed thing) can be the least threatening, most gentle and loyal companion in the world however in the wrong hands (again, any breed) they can become fearful then aggressive and a danger to themselves and others. Getting a dog is not something to do lightly, they are not humans and don't think like us, if people actually studied dog psychology before becoming an owner then these awful things wouldn't happen. People who don't have dogs can help keep themselves safe too by just keeping quiet, calm and relaxed when around dogs and by just totally ignoring any dog they don't know.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> The staffies owner that attacked molly was laughing all the time molly was screaming and had blood pouring from her mouth, they are the ones that have done all this damage to the bull breeds.


Thats awfull  Like you say, its those that destroy the name of the breed.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> thats all i meant they do much more damage.
> 
> i never said it like my dog was perfect, although rough collies would hardly ever attack, even in defence, they really cant be trained that way.
> 
> saying its how its raised, i do know some da staffs who are in the same homes and raised as other non aggressive ones so i think a bred for temperament should come into it, there are some awful breeders producing dogs with ill temperaments.


To be fair they will do no more damage than another other dog of similar head size- a Lab for instance. SBT's do not have some sort of bionic jaw- they will exert the same level of bite force as any other dog with the same sized head.

ALL breeders should take temperament into consideration when breeding. Just heard this reported on the radio as a "pitbull attack"- so sad that the owner was not responsible enough to take action.

I do wonder though HOW a staff bit a kids ear off, without jumping up, or was the child bent down tormenting the dog? Unacceptable either way.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> Makes your bloody blood boil!
> 
> Think I would have gone for them!
> Sorry your poor molly had to suffer this HM xx


He didnt even walk down to where it was happening just laughed at a distance, a BIG man ya see, my hubby was actually walking them.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

just seen this:

BBC News - Man arrested after girl mauled in Chingford dog attack


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

I know most will disagree but I really do believe this man did something very brave, not everybody would have turned themselves in especially knowing what would happen to their dog, he made the wrong choice but he's turned himself if which imo deserves respect.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Well, I've just come back in from walking my devil dog and every person we met and wanted a fuss said "Oh, he's so friendly. Isn't he gorgeous?" In fact, I believe the man we met in Pets at Home is possibly still drying himself off from Terence's ferocious licking. 

As for dog-on-dog attacks: When we go to the park, who have we had issues with? Labs, mainly, JRTs and various types of "Oodles". Do I believe any of those dogs are dog-aggressive? No, because I am not a tool and know to take every dog on it's own merit. And what does Terence do when dogs go for him? He rolls over. So much for roughty-toughty "hard" Staffies.

BUT: It really bugs me that there are people on this forum who believe that there is something in Bully-types that makes them nasty somehow. You might as well just sign off on the whole BSL BS. When I hear "I love all dogs really, BUT..." , it really makes my blood boil.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Well, I've just come back in from walking my devil dog and every person we met and wanted a fuss said "Oh, he's so friendly. Isn't he gorgeous?" In fact, I believe the man we met in Pets at Home is possibly still drying himself off from Terence's ferocious licking.
> 
> As for dog-on-dog attacks: When we go to the park, who have we had issues with? Labs, mainly, JRTs and various types of "Oodles". Do I believe any of those dogs are dog-aggressive? No, because I am not a tool and know to take every dog on it's own merit. And what does Terence do when dogs go for him? He rolls over. So much for roughty-toughty "hard" Staffies.
> 
> BUT: It really bugs me that there are people on this forum who believe that there is something in Bully-types that makes them nasty somehow. You might as well just sign off on the whole BSL BS. When I hear "I love all dogs really, BUT..." , it really makes my blood boil.


Ive only noticed unless ive missed some of the posts that people on this forum are actually blaming the owners and not the dogs.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Well, I've just come back in from walking my devil dog and every person we met and wanted a fuss said "Oh, he's so friendly. Isn't he gorgeous?" In fact, I believe the man we met in Pets at Home is possibly still drying himself off from Terence's ferocious licking.
> 
> As for dog-on-dog attacks: When we go to the park, who have we had issues with? Labs, mainly, JRTs and various types of "Oodles". Do I believe any of those dogs are dog-aggressive? No, because I am not a tool and know to take every dog on it's own merit. And what does Terence do when dogs go for him? He rolls over. So much for roughty-toughty "hard" Staffies.
> 
> BUT: It really bugs me that there are people on this forum who believe that there is something in Bully-types that makes them nasty somehow. You might as well just sign off on the whole BSL BS. When I hear "I love all dogs really, BUT..." , it really makes my blood boil.


Brilliantly said.

Not sure why it still shocks me animal and 'dog lovers' be so judgemental towards bull breeds. If that's a dog lover what hope is there to alter the view of these dogs to non dog lovers!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree *but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them* and sometimes lying dormant.


Even if statements like that are said slightly misguidedly and in a light-hearted fashion they only fuel the general public's perception. And, as a responsible owner of a Stafford, it really infuriates me.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Even if statements like that are said slightly misguidedly and in a light-hearted fashion they only fuel the general public's perception. And, as a responsible owner of a Stafford, it really infuriates me.


Pretty much what I said on my first post on this thread! Great minds eh


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## LottieLab (Jan 2, 2012)

I think both dog and owner are at fault. Dog was probably a little bit rough/aggressive when he was a pup and owner probably encouraged that.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> To be fair they will do no more damage than another other dog of similar head size- a Lab for instance. SBT's do not have some sort of bionic jaw- they will exert the same level of bite force as any other dog with the same sized head.
> 
> ALL breeders should take temperament into consideration when breeding. Just heard this reported on the radio as a "pitbull attack"- so sad that the owner was not responsible enough to take action.
> 
> I do wonder though HOW a staff bit a kids ear off, without jumping up, or was the child bent down tormenting the dog? Unacceptable either way.


I have always understood (from staffie owners) that a staffie's jaw will lock. Their jaws are a completely different shape from a lab.
Anyway it was not a staffie by the sound of it. The Sun even had quotes from the English Bull Terrier club then showed the mad staffie/pit bull photo 
And dont you think it rather likely that the dog knocked the child down and savaged it!



terencesmum said:


> Well, I've just come back in from walking my devil dog and every person we met and wanted a fuss said "Oh, he's so friendly. Isn't he gorgeous?" In fact, I believe the man we met in Pets at Home is possibly still drying himself off from Terence's ferocious licking.
> As for dog-on-dog attacks: When we go to the park, who have we had issues with? Labs, mainly, JRTs and various types of "Oodles". Do I believe any of those dogs are dog-aggressive? No, because I am not a tool and know to take every dog on it's own merit. And what does Terence do when dogs go for him? He rolls over. So much for roughty-toughty "hard" Staffies.
> 
> BUT: It really bugs me that there are people on this forum who believe that there is something in Bully-types that makes them nasty somehow. You might as well just sign off on the whole BSL BS. When I hear "I love all dogs really, BUT..." , it really makes my blood boil.


Of course well brought up dogs of fighting and guarding breeds are fine - but they have much more propensity to attack, they are bred for it. Yes, any dog can attack but certain breeds and individuals among these breeds are more likely to not only attack but inflict damage than individuals from some other breeds. 
If that was not true then the police would use labradors as police dogs. It is horses for courses and every breed of dog has its own skills.

I tell you something though, staffies will get banned at some time. And all dog laws with tighten up to our detriment.
How many gun attacks did there have to be before leisure gun users were banned from owning or using their guns. ONE. How many dog attacks have there been - HUNDREDS.

And before anyone has a go at me about saying some breeds are more likely to attack - I have looked after a staffie for years - and I trusted him 100percent with my child, my dogs and my visitors.
The English bullies I have known are just soft lumps. There used to be a lot of very touchy GSDs and rotties about but they seem to be much much better now.
JRTs can be very aggressive because they are kept as pets with no stimulation but they will seldom inflict a lot of damage.

I have a friend with a rare breed that has a reputation for being none too friendly. She is supposedly a very good dog owner and her dogs are well looked after and well trained. But she treated her first dog with kid gloves. Was soooo careful about anyone touching it. Shut it away when visitors came (even me, who had known it from a puppy and knew how soft it was) and never let it mix with other dogs. What way is that to treat a dog.
Then she got another one , and it attacked someone quite seriously but she still kept it and still did not socialise it.
So it is not just 'ignorant' people that make a thing about certain breeds having traits that are likely to come out at any time!


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

One reader of the Daily Mail thinks all Staffie owners are on benefits, so go figure all UK Staffie owners. 

With that in mind get off here and go look for a job 

Some people do like to sterotype people, then again I sterotype DM readers as ****'s


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

DT said:


> Pretty much what I said on my first post on this thread! Great minds eh


Sorry, just had to get this off my chest.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

IndysMamma said:


> I'm only 27 but when I was a kid all the media 'dog attacks' were 'of german shepherd type' regardless of actual breed


I was going to say this same thing. Im 30, but I remember the different 'fads' of breeds that were all over the papers. German shepherds, dobermans, rotties, its just the staffy's turn now.

Now, you rarely hear about GSD attacks on kids, or at least, not a fraction as often as you hear about it from staffies. And I can't remember the last time I heard a dobe attack story. 
But these dogs still exist, lots of people still have them, so what's happened? And its simple, there are two reasons: they're not the current fashionable breed, therefore, the number of morons owning them for the wrong reasons is lower, therefore, less attacks.
And also, the media aren't concerned with those breeds any more. Its all bull breeds now. 
These two things combined mean a you just don't really hear about attacks from these breeds any more. Yet you'll notice that neither one concerns the actual dog themselves; they're still the same dogs they were back when we were always hearing reports of attacks, they're just not owned by as high a percentage of morons now, nor does the media have as much interest in covering stories involving them.

I got bit by a westie when working at the vet. No one batted any eye-lid. In fact, we all kinda laughed it off, because it was 'just a westie'. 
But if a staff had done that to me, or a rottie, well, you can imagine.

Its frustrating. I worked in vet nursing, and we had a lot of different dogs in every single day, day in and day out, in a variety of conditions. Some for routine neutering, others for more serious issues, so lots were scared or in pain. And I can tell you that I NEVER had any aggression issues with the breeds the media tells you will be nasty. 
Never met a nasty staffy, never got growled at or lunged at by a rottie or a dobe, never had a GSD give me trouble.
The dogs I was often lunged at, snapped at, growled at and was most concerned about having to deal with were overwhelmingly the smaller breeds. 
Yorkies, jack russells, westies, little cross-breeds; they always scared me!
Most of them just seemed to either hate me, or have serious attitude issues. 
I'd always much rather go into the big walk in kennel with a rottie than stick my hand in the cage of a yorkie!
Obviously, they weren't all that way. But they were the only breeds, bar the shar-pei, that ever gave me trouble.

Now I know they don't do as much damage.....to an adult. But to a child, a small breed can do a LOT of damage. Yet we still don't hear about it. 
Its just not an 'exciting' story to hear of a yorkie biting a kid's ear off as it is a staffy


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

PaulRyan said:


> I know most will disagree but I really do believe this man did something very brave, not everybody would have turned themselves in especially knowing what would happen to their dog, he made the wrong choice but he's turned himself if which imo deserves respect.


I agree with this totally.

Who knows why he legged it yesterday.... panic, worry over what would happen to his dog.... we may never know. None of us were there.

Credit to him now for doing the right thing


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

LottieLab said:


> I think both dog and owner are at fault. Dog was probably a little bit rough/aggressive when he was a pup and owner probably encouraged that.


I don't think it's fair to say the owner encouraged the dog to be aggressive, maybe a lack of knowledge or training but it just seems a bit harsh especially as he has taken responsibility, I actually feel very sorry for all involved.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> *I have always understood (from staffie owners) that a staffie's jaw will lock.* Their jaws are a completely different shape from a lab.
> Anyway it was not a staffie by the sound of it. The Sun even had quotes from the English Bull Terrier club then showed the mad staffie/pit bull photo
> And dont you think it rather likely that the dog knocked the child down and savaged it!
> 
> ...


 Well, since Staffies were initially bred to attack Bulls, I feel all children are perfectly safe from any viciousness in him! In fact, if I ever meet a bull that is charging towards me, I would positively encourage Terence to go back to his roots.

As for the ban on Staffs, I feel, you might be right. It is very sad, but I also fear this. :001_unsure:


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

As for the "locking jaw". Urban myth, just as I suspected.

The Locking Jaw

About Dogs - American Pit Bull Terrier - APBT

Pet Myths: Do certain dog breeds have "locking jaws?" | Tails Of The City | an SFGate.com blog


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

and this is why i love this site, finally some people who speak some sense-the comments after the article on the site were making me mad mad mad!!!

my gsd's were 'killer dogs' of the 90s and our next door neighbour at the time (was only 5 or 6) had one who seemed to fulfil all the necessary requirements of a savage dog a part from when we were invited in and played with the dog and fused her and that's when i fell in love with the bread

all fighting breeds, all hunting/rat catcher breeds, all large/heavy breeds, all small nippy yappy breeds can do a lot of harm if they want to and they don't know any better -is there a bread which isn't described in that little lot, probably not. you'd have just as hard a time getting a JR off a kid if it latched on as a staff or pit, we bred them to do that at the end of the day

can't stand all these people jumping up and down saying all dogs should be muzzled, all dogs should be on the lead at all times in public spaces


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

The most aggressive dog ive encountered was a silky terrier lol, all the bull breed ones I know are loving and sooky. Owners make the dog and Im sick of hearing ignorant peeps sterotyping a breed cos they believe what the media spins.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Actually shocked by the level of ignorance amongst people that should know better.

Then again probably 6 or 7 out of 10 'dog lovers' I meet don't actually understand dog psychology at all sadly. 

Humans have bred dog to do certain jobs, breeding certain traits into them to suit the job so yes, fighting or guard breeds like Staffies, English bull terriers, Shar Peis, Dobermans, etc are generally braver and will fight rather flight if put in a situation where they feel threatened to a higher degree than those breeds that were bred for other purposes. It's like how Labradors and spaniels tend to love water more than others or why Beagles mostly have their noses glued to the ground but all dogs whatever the breed are exactly that, a dog. They're not human and don't think consciously like we do (much as we like to think they do!) they simply react to their surroundings.

ANY dog no matter what breed can be the most loving, loyal and gentle creature in the world given the right environment and direction in the same way any dog can become dangerous through no fault of their own when exposed to the imbalance of humans and incorrect treatment. 

Whoever said a loyal family dog can just one day snap and become a savage is wrong, very wrong. It doesn't happen, that dog will have been giving out signs and signals for help that were not picked up on by the humans.

We have bred these animals and all they want to do is please us, the least we can do is educate ourselves to ensure we have the knowledge to treat them the way they deserve to be treated and communicate with them in a language they understand instead of trying to make them understand us; we are after all supposed to be the most intelligent ones!


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

How awful  I hope the little girl makes a quick recovery and isn't left too emotionally and physically scarred by this horrible attack, my thoughts go out to her family too...as a parent I can't even begin to imagine how horrific it must be for them to try to deal with.

I don't know the full details of what happened so it isn't for me to judge anybody or place blame.

However, it does infuriate me that the media immediately jump on the bull breeds and they are once again made out to be vicious child killers (the photo in The Sun is exactly what I would expect and so very wrong), I understand it is human nature to want to place blame somewhere but I do feel sorry for these breeds and their (responsible) owners, once again you are the scapegoat...when will this end  ...well it won't end will it, it will just move onto another breed that will end up being blamed instead.

I remember growing up and back then it was GSD and Great Danes that were the "well 'ard" breed to own, of course they fell into the wrong hands and consequently became feared, blamed, dumped in rescue or PTS.

My aunt owns a little dog, a Yorkie I think but I'm not 100% sure which breed it is...due to the fact that I've never been able to see it because every time someone knocks on the door it has to be locked in the bedroom as it will attack instantly, she is the last person in the world that should own a dog because she isn't capable of training one, her dog is treated like a baby and rules the house, one day my other elderly aunt was there who suffered some brain injury some years ago which has left her speech and co-ordination severely affected, she was left in the room on her own with the dog and it attacked her...it was going for her face but due to her limited physical capabilities she was unable to protect herself properly, eventually someone managed to get there to help, but not before my aunt had suffered many bites on her throat and left hand, but the biggest injuries were on her right hand and arm, they had been pretty much ripped to shreds as she tried to defend herself.

If I had to make a choice to be locked in a room with one of the bull breeds or my aunt's Yorkie....I know which I'd choose!

I'm sorry if I have offended anybody with a Yorkie by writing the above story, please understand that I am not picking on this breed at all....they are fantastic little dogs, my intention is just to highlight that any dog is capable of attacking and causing serious injury if not owned by a responsible owner.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I have always understood (from staffie owners) that a staffie's jaw will lock. Their jaws are a completely different shape from a lab.
> Anyway it was not a staffie by the sound of it. The Sun even had quotes from the English Bull Terrier club then showed the mad staffie/pit bull photo
> And dont you think it rather likely that the dog knocked the child down and savaged it!
> 
> .


Lock?? HOW? they do not have a different jaw to any other dog- as someone else has posted above- it is a myth.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> look at which picture the Sun has chosen to use in their article:
> 
> Girl, 6, loses ear in dog attack | The Sun |News


What a ******* joke. A bullterrier "like" the one    why dont they show a kid like chucky and say it was a kid like that which got attacked. Same thing really.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> What a ******* joke. A bullterrier "like" the one    why dont they show a kid like chucky and say it was a kid like that which got attacked. Same thing really.


Oooh, controversial! :ihih:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

It is not true what they say about they locking jaws!
Think about it if it were true - then any bite would be clean and deep, and quite easily I would suppect certainly with a small child could remove a oimb


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> Oooh, controversial! :ihih:


Not really lol, if they are gonna exaggerate one side of the story they may as well do both.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I cannot believe that certain members/people think "there's a certain type of dog..." WHAT? *No there isn't!*  There is however a certain type of person  the problem is not the sharp end of the lead, it's the plank holding it.

I've still got scars on my hand given to me by a fluffy golden retriever, my neighbour's bichon attacked the plumber - again, and was pts.

Stop blaming the dogs, start blaming the people.

I am so sorry for this little girl and her family and there is just no excuse for this attack, I'm disgusted that the person who owned the dog left the scene, it's a very sad day for all dog owners, not just us who have a breed that is perceived by the public to be dangerous, but one day, it might just be all breeds of dogs need to be muzzled and kept on leads in public.

But, saying all that, (slightly off topic I know, but could be relevant) I have earlier today read a thread on here with someone who has a problem with a recall and their large dog; the advice given? Get a long-line and work on recall! Absolutely nothing about going to training classes and learning how to have better control of their dog. So, am I surprised, no, not in the least.

Owning a dog involves training and damned hard work, not just typing a question onto a forum IMO.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

PaulRyan said:


> I know most will disagree but I really do believe this man did something very brave, not everybody would have turned themselves in especially knowing what would happen to their dog, he made the wrong choice but he's turned himself if which imo deserves respect.


Brave? not too sure about that, he did what any responsible dog owner should do and thats take responsibility for what his dog had done, in my mind so he should have turned himself in.


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Brave? not too sure about that, he did what any responsible dog owner should do and thats take responsibility for what his dog had done, in my mind so he should have turned himself in.


Sometimes even doing what is expected of us take a great deal of guts, he could have easily kept his head down and stayed quite. Yes people SHOULD take responsibility but many don't.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


I do agree with you.

However well brought up they are, the bull breeds were breed to fight and kill. At some point *a few of them* are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.

I know other breed have attacked but mostly it's a bull type of dog.

On BBC News 24 at 14.00hrs, they said it was a Pit Bull type.

I do hope this little girl will recover quickly and is not left badly scared.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

PaulRyan said:


> Sometimes even doing what is expected of us take a great deal of guts, he could have easily kept his head down and stayed quite. Yes people SHOULD take responsibility but many don't.


Oh ye certainly agree with that too many dont, ime just not sure them that do i would deem as brave thats all.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I have always understood (from staffie owners) that a staffie's jaw will lock. Their jaws are a completely different shape from a lab


simply not true , watch this bite force video , i`ll think you`ll be surprised to see which dog came first and it weren`t the pit bull.

[youtube_browser]qb1vT_t4EL4[/youtube_browser]


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Oh ye certainly agree with that too many dont, ime just not sure them that do i would deem as brave thats all.


Maybe brave was the wrong choice of words but I do respect him for it.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

diablo said:


> simply not true , watch this bite force video , i`ll think you`ll be surprised to see which dog came first and it weren`t the pit bull.
> 
> [youtube_browser]qb1vT_t4EL4[/youtube_browser]


Been looking for that- thank you!!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I do agree with you.
> 
> However well brought up they are, the bull breeds were breed to fight and kill. At some point *a few of them* are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.
> 
> ...


I *think* you will find the statistics beg to differ depending on where you look, and what constitutes an attack, and whether it was dog human or dog dog.


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

8tansox said:


> There is however a certain type of person  the problem is not the sharp end of the lead, it's the plank holding it.


well said!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

8tansox said:


> But, saying all that, (slightly off topic I know, but could be relevant) I have earlier today read a thread on here with someone who has a problem with a recall and their large dog; the advice given? Get a long-line and work on recall! Absolutely nothing about going to training classes and learning how to have better control of their dog. So, am I surprised, no, not in the least.
> 
> Owning a dog involves training and damned hard work, not just typing a question onto a forum IMO.


i don't understand what's wrong with this. Isn't it better that they came onto the forum for advice, and people instructed to have the dog on a long line? That's what i would advise, on a long line and work on recall. If they can do this, why go to training classes?


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## Barryjparsons (Nov 27, 2011)

You do realise that you are speculating on an event that you have no knowledge of, no idea of the prior events leading up to it or of the aftermath. All you have is the sketchiest of ideas from a few reports usually skewed by media hype and sensationalism. 

This dog could have been a fantastically trained family pet or a trained psycho. The owner could have spent his time loving and caring for him/her or kicked it every day. 

Eg first report owner was 30-40..... The man who handed himself in was in fact 56.

So perhaps it would be better to wait until the full facts come out before commenting further. Just a thought


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i don't understand what's wrong with this. Isn't it better that they came onto the forum for advice, and people instructed to have the dog on a long line? That's what i would advise, on a long line and work on recall. If they can do this, why go to training classes?


Quite simply, good training classes can prevent problems occurring in the first place, and someone who has a dog who has "some" problems, would do well to explore all that is on offer, problems can be nipped in the bud so to speak, and to be honest, using a forum for advice is laziness.  It can be a good tool for ideas and suggestions, but the bottom line is the dogs are out of control is usually down to the owner not having enough practical experience, not reading or interpreting their dog's body language correctly, not understanding what could be developing, but simply posting questions on forums and reading replies and "hoping" it all goes well.

Back to topic now....


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

_One suprising conclusion of several studies is the fact that many varieties of dogs have been involved in a fatal human attack for one reason or another. Topping the list of deaths by dog in a twenty year period is the Pit Bull and Pit Bull mix at 66 human deaths. The Rottweiler and Rottweiler mix was responsibe for 39 human deaths. The German Shepherd dog and mix were responsible for 17 human deaths. The Husky type dog was responsible for 15 human deaths as was the Malamute responsible for 12 human deaths. The Chow Chow was responsible for 8 deaths while the Doberman was responsible for 9 human deaths. The Saint Bernard was responsible for 7 human deaths and the Great Dane was also responsible for 7 deaths. The Akita killed 4 people, the Bulldog 2, the Mastiff 2, the Boxer 2 and believe it or not the Labrador Retriever was responsible for 1 death while Lab mixes were responsible for 4 deaths. The following dogs were responsible for killing one human each during these twenty years: The Bullmastiff, Cheasapeake Bay Retriever, West Highland Terrier, Japanese Hunting Dog, Newfoundland, Coonhound, Sheepdog, Rhodesian Ridgeback and cocker Spaniel._

The above is from a US study of deaths caused by dogs between 1979 and 1998. Should we ban all the above mentioned breeds? Of course not, though I am aware the first breed mentioned already is in the UK 

So in that 20 year period less than 250 people were killed by an array of breeds, at the same time on average 150 people died from coconut related deaths, and still do to this day. I say lets ban coconuts before banning any breed of dog. 

That study of course does not take into account injuries/maulings or indeed more recent breeds which have killed humans such as the JRT who killed a baby in 2008.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Well, since Staffies were initially bred to attack Bulls, I feel all children are perfectly safe from any viciousness in him! In fact, if I ever meet a bull that is charging towards me, I would positively encourage Terence to go back to his roots.
> 
> As for the ban on Staffs, I feel, you might be right. It is very sad, but I also fear this. :001_unsure:


This is why I would imagine the myth (if in fact it is a myth) about jaws locking came about. A dog has to have incredibly strong jaws to be able to hang on to a bulls nose when it is chucking it about. Surely the jaws must have been developed to have some sort of ability that a normal dogs jaw would not have.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I would suggest banning humans as they seem to account for a far higher number of deaths, than any animal (non human)..

BBC - Mark Easton's UK: Map of the Week - Murder UK

Even the most anti dog site cant come up with fatality figures anywhere near those caused by human to human attacks


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

The latest BBC report has deleted any mention of breed, which is good. They are obviously unsure, so until they know for certain, they shouldn't sensationalise.

They are stopping short of saying what happened...they don't say it was unprovoked, but don't say she did provoke him either. Just that she was walking with her family.

I hope that she is okay. I also hope that they deal with the dog in a kind manner - if it needs to be PTS, then fair enough, but the owner's responsibility in this should not be ignored, and all the circumstances should be taken into consideration before a decision on the dog is made.


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

It doesn't matter what breed the dog is, it was dangerouslky out of control. The latest news is the dog has been siezed and the owner, a 56 yr old man, arrested.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Sky News mentioned the owner gave his name and address to the parents before leaving the scene. However the details turned out to be incorrect.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> However well brought up they are, the bull breeds were breed to fight and kill. At some point *a few of them* are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.


No words really. :nonod:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

OllieBob said:


> It doesn't matter what breed the dog is, it was dangerouslky out of control. The latest news is the dog has been siezed and the owner, a 56 yr old man, arrested.


I read that the man walked into a polic e station to hand himself in and was THEN arrested!


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> some point *a few of them* are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.


:mad2::mad2::mad2:.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Since there is so much talk about the "types" of dog that attack and their "nature" and "character", I thought I'd post a link to the breed standard.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=3080

In case some people can't be bothered to read it, I will post this which is a direct quote from said breed standard.

*Characteristics
Traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity. Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children.

Temperament
Bold, fearless and totally reliable.*


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I do agree with you.
> 
> However well brought up they are, the bull breeds were breed to fight and kill. At some point *a few of them* are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.
> 
> .


But many dogs were taught to *hunt*, and kill - 
the weimaraner breed for instance were bred originally in Germany to hunt large game which they would bring down with their hind legs prior to I assume going to the throat for the kill.

Hunts used to hunt and kill too! (cave men days) but the majority have ceased doing such!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Since there is so much talk about the "types" of dog that attack and their "nature" and "character", I thought I'd post a link to the breed standard.
> 
> The Kennel Club
> 
> ...


and here is another

This time the staffie

Staffordshire Bull Terrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


Any dog can attack regardless of breed. There have been instances of Labradors attacking children but that never makes it in the news. The problem lies with the press only being interested in certain breeds attacking and with dog owners who do not take proper care of their dogs


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes, i understand the idiots who get them and this happens but there are instances of long standing family dogs suddenly turning and attacking.
> 
> there is a difference too as a yorkie could never get that much strength on a child, the parents gave an interview and said both of them couldnt pry the dog off the little girl.
> 
> the owner is to blame but the dog is responsible too.


Of course a Yorkie can damage a child all dogs have teeth !!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

DT said:


> and here is another
> 
> This time the staffie
> 
> Staffordshire Bull Terrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The one above WAS for the Staffie.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> Any dog can attack regardless of breed. There have been instances of Labradors attacking children but that never makes it in the news. The problem lies with the press only being interested in certain breeds attacking and with dog owners who do not take proper care of their dogs


ain;t that the truth! there is a hardened set out their that would like nothing more then seeing some of these poor breeds banned!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I have always understood (from staffie owners) that a staffie's jaw will lock. Their jaws are a completely different shape from a lab.
> Anyway it was not a staffie by the sound of it. The Sun even had quotes from the English Bull Terrier club then showed the mad staffie/pit bull photo
> And dont you think it rather likely that the dog knocked the child down and savaged it!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I have to say it, I've never read such a load of old bunkum in my life re staffies. Their jaws do not lock, and they are the only KC breed that is recommended for families with children, in the breed standard.

As for your friend who treated her dog with kid gloves, locked it away, there's your answer, the poor bl**dy thing hadn't a clue what to do with other humans and dogs from the sounds of it, is it any wonder it attacked someone, it was probably frightened to death of the outside world and new people by that stage.

I really find it hard to believe from some of your posts that you were a vet nurse for so many years when you come out with such daft urban myths and reasoning


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Originally Posted by Happy Paws View Post
some point a few of them are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.

This is true of any breed not just bull breeds. Dogs are decsendants of wolves at the end of the day and there could always be a time when any dog could return to basic instincts.

Breed Bashing is not the way
.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

It says staffie here

Girl, 6, has ear bitten off by 'pit-bull-type dog' in park attack as she walked with parents | Mail Online


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Nothing at all to do with breeds I have a foster at the moment who is a cross Collie hates kids would bite them I know he would hates men think it was one that caused him to be like this,so if he had been passed onto new owners and taken to the park a child would have been bitten and know doubt the media would have turned him into a Bullyx when he is a colliex lab.I actually hold no hope of him ever moving on as I have private land for him to walk on so he is safe and people are safe


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

The myth that dogs such as Staffies lock their jaw comes from the fact they were bred to not let go of the bull, call this stubborn if you like, then again they are terriers.

Their jaw structure is no different to any other breed of dog, however they do have strong muscles in this area compared to some breeds.

They also on the whole do one bite, then hold on as if it's life depended on it. Where as most non bull breeds will do more than one bite. This is again mistaken for Lock Jaw. Police Attack Dogs are trained to do exactly the same, one bite, hold on and shake.


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

> Witnesses told how the girl's father repeatedly punched the animal in the head in a bid to save his daughter. She was screaming "mummy, mummy, help me".


They are saying wounds mainly to the neck and shoulder now, and on the local radio they have said she was chasing and playing with the other dogs.

I guess until the whole story comes out it's difficult to form an idea of what happened, and even then we probably won't get the full story.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

So no witnesses to what triggered the attack, just the aftermath ? For all we know the dog may have had its eye poked lol, Id bloody bite as well. If not then nvm


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> It says staffie here
> 
> Girl, 6, has ear bitten off by 'pit-bull-type dog' in park attack as she walked with parents | Mail Online


LOL they changed their snarling dog pic to one of a staffie smiling.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I am all in favour of bringing in a dog licence, much like a gun licence. For all breeds. Ban people, not breeds.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I do agree with what everyone has said in defense of the staffie and i also agree that any dog can bite and cause some damage, but we cant lose sight of the fact that some breeds are very different when it comes to a bite or an attack and will when showing any aggression be treated differently.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I do agree with what everyone has said in defense of the staffie and i also agree that any dog can bite and cause some damage, but we cant lose sight of the fact that some breeds are very different when it comes to a bite or an attack and will when showing any aggression be treated differently.


I can't see how considering all dogs have teeth


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> Originally Posted by Happy Paws View Post
> some point a few of them are going to snap and the nature of the dog will come to the surface and will attack.
> 
> This is true of any breed not just bull breeds. Dogs are decsendants of wolves at the end of the day and there could always be a time when any dog could return to basic instincts.
> ...


i have never seen or heard of a rough collie attacking anyone. there are also lots of breeds where there are no attacks too.

also the rough collie in most standards are highly recommended with children too, all the standards i have.

to people who say it is the time where the media are causing a stir in the 70's my mother had a rough collie and whilst in the park completely unprovoked a staff grabbed him, knocked him down and had him around the throat, drawing much blood, the dog didnt know what to do so my mother pulled the dog of to no use and her dog was now bleeding badly so she stepped right in and the dog grabbed her leg and would not let go, she still has the scars and the dog was traumatised for life.

this was before chavs and the media portrayal of the breed.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

haeveymolly said:


> I do agree with what everyone has said in defense of the staffie and i also agree that any dog can bite and cause some damage, but we cant lose sight of the fact that some breeds are very different when it comes to a bite or an attack and will when showing any aggression be treated differently.


Explain attacks by labs, a breed bred to be gentle with its mouth?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Dober said:


> I am all in favour of bringing in a dog licence, much like a gun licence. For all breeds. Ban people, not breeds.


How would that work? surly irresponsible owners would pay the licence fee and still be irresponsible owners who dont train there dogs or do train them in the wrong way.


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

suewhite said:


> How would that work? surly irresponsible owners would pay the licence fee and still be irresponsible owners who dont train there dogs or do train them in the wrong way.


Or not pay the license fee and own the dogs illegally.

I think a dog license is a good idea in theory. I've been quite involved with the idea currently being backed by the Dogs Trust et al. Unfortunately, the previous dog license showed a number of large flaws, and I don't think we have the way to fix these yet.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I do agree with what everyone has said in defense of the staffie and i also agree that any dog can bite and cause some damage, but we cant lose sight of the fact that some breeds are very different when it comes to a bite or an attack and will when showing any aggression be treated differently.


yes and a lot more experience and training is required for certain breeds of dog and not 1st time owners or ones unwilling to train to the full.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

EllesBelles said:


> Or not pay the license fee and own the dogs illegally.
> 
> I think a dog license is a good idea in theory. I've been quite involved with the idea currently being backed by the Dogs Trust et al. Unfortunately, the previous dog license showed a number of large flaws, and I don't think we have the way to fix these yet.


I agree I dont mind paying for a dog license but cant see what it would achieve with dogs biting people, to me it would just put more money in the goverments pot


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes and a lot more experience and training is required for certain breeds of dog and not 1st time owners or ones unwilling to train to the full.


i was a first time owner many years ago... there was no problem here


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> yes and a lot more experience and training is required for certain breeds of dog and not 1st time owners or ones unwilling to train to the full.


The thing is how would you monitor if someone was a first time owner or indeed has the experience and training?

Maybe something like a scheme or licence is needed, but then again not sure that would work.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

Seems to be going round in circles to me. Majority are defending their breed, and rightly so. What i see is that the owners are to blame. I knew before getting my EBT that they are stubborn and strong, amongst other things. But i also looked at the pluses of owning an EBT ie great with children (especially small children), loving and such fun to be around. Therefore could i be even more stubborn during training, would i be strong enough to manage her etc, etc. I can very happily say that she has turned into my perfect little pooch and would i recommend the breed, yes!!! Do i trust her 100%, no! 99.9% yes! But i don't trust ANY dog 100% At the end of the day we can keep defending our own breeds and attacking others but i still stand by its how they are raised.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

BullyMolly said:


> Seems to be going round in circles to me. Majority are defending their breed, and rightly so. What i see is that the owners are to blame. I knew before getting my EBT that they are stubborn and strong, amongst other things. But i also looked at the pluses of owning an EBT ie great with children (especially small children), loving and such fun to be around. Therefore could i be even more stubborn during training, would i be strong enough to manage her etc, etc. I can very happily say that she has turned into my perfect little pooch and would i recommend the breed, yes!!! Do i trust her 100%, no! 99.9% yes! But i don't trust ANY dog 100% At the end of the day we can keep defending our own breeds and attacking others but i still stand by its how they are raised.


Agreed. 100% agreed.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Well yes, obviously any laws can and will be broken. Pot is illegal and people still do it, but in my opinion it could be used to regulate who can own and breed dogs. 

I know nothing about making and reinforcing laws, so I dont know who would fund or reinforce it, but if I were making it I would say everyone needs a dog licence which would need to be renewed yearly. Initially to get a dog licence, you must pass a written exam and need to prove that you have adequate knowledge, income and premises suitable for the dog of your choice. If you have had any prior criminal convictions, I wouldnt let you have a dog. 

To renew your dog licence, you would need show recent proof signed by a vet, which states you have been appropriately looking after your pet. 

In my opinion, owning a dog is a privilege, not a right.


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## Mici (Nov 13, 2011)

I see a problem with conditions of getting a licence and which people would determine if you have appropriate home.
For example in our country breeders long refused to sell GSD to people who would have them in home. They needed to be in kennels! So if the ones who were responsible for approving your dog licence were of such thinking than what? 

or imagine you have had the same dog for 10 yrs and you have to move from a house to an apartment without garden. And the breed is considered very active... And than, as you said you would want the dog license to be renewed yearly than what? Would you be just abe to part with your beloved dog just because you have fallen on maybe a bit harder times and had to move to an apartment? 

I for one am sure that my 12 year old 50 kg dog who now lives with me in a big house with fenced in yard and regular walks would much rather be with me in a small apartment with regular walks, truly loved and given a good treatment even if I wont eat for a few days than be in a shelter where no one loved him.

Think about the possible flaws of such license laws. Afterall governments never pass any laws primarily to help people, it is primarily to earn money... Even if some people who suggest new laws are well intentioned!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> i was a first time owner many years ago... there was no problem here


As is everyone at sometime or another!


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

At the moment, the proposed conditions of the dog license are that the name and breed are registered, and a fee is paid each year. The dog must also be microchipped, and vaccinated.

The fee is something like £15 a year per dog which is paid to the vet on annual health check.

As mentioned, though, there are huge flaws with this, and there is currently no way to get passed the matter that some people disagree with microchipping, and the scheme has no chance of success without it. 

It is a work in progress however, so I hope that they'll come up with a system which works and which holds owners responsible, rather than dogs.


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## Big Guy (Oct 9, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> i have never seen or heard of a rough collie attacking anyone.


I am sorry to say that my son Andy was attacked by a rough collie when he was aged 4.

It was my brother-in-laws dog and Andy was lying on the sofa with the dog lying on the floor beneath him. As he reached across the dog to take his drink from the coffee table, the dog jumped up and gripped him in the face. Due to the size of the dogs jaw, Andy had punctures to the bridge of his nose, down to under his chin. It took a minute or two for the dog to release.

I was sitting next to my son at the time and the dog had appeared to be asleep.

The reason given for the attack - he had been a rescue and severely beaten before my brother-in-law had taken him in. "The dog must have though Andy was going to hit him."

Luckily Andy grew up wary, but not scared of dogs and the collie went on to have a long and happy life. My brother-in-law just took extra special care so that dog and child encounters were always leashed and supervised.

I believe that ALL dogs can turn. As responsible owners, we have to train and care for them to the best of our ability to prevent this from happening. When we fail these needs, it is hard to expect an animal not to return to their "natural" breed instincts


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> i have never seen or heard of a rough collie attacking anyone. there are also lots of breeds where there are no attacks too.
> 
> also the rough collie in most standards are highly recommended with children too, all the standards i have.


My best friend grew up on a farm in ireland as a kid. She was bitten by a rough collie. And a JR. 
Also, how do you know there are lots of breeds with no attacks? How do you account for attacks that aren't reported by the family? Or attacks the media don't bother picking up on? Just because we haven't heard about them, by no means means they haven't occurred. Unless you know all individual dogs of all breeds in the world, then you absolutely cannot say there is a single breed with no attacks to its name. 
I'd go as far as to speculate the other way: there is more likely to not be a single breed that HASN'T attacked a human at some point, somewhere.

Also, staffies are also recommend as brilliant with kids.....


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> also the rough collie in most standards are highly recommended with children too, all the standards i have.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> So are Staff's- known as the nanny dog......


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dober said:


> I am all in favour of bringing in a dog licence, much like a gun licence. For all breeds. Ban people, not breeds.


The problem with that is how are they going to enforce it, it will only be responsible owners who will both to get one.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rotties4eva said:


> I can't see how considering all dogs have teeth


I say this because of my own experience, we had an extremely badly bred dog that was showing a lot of aggression at a very young age, anyway long story but if he had been a small dog and i hadnt got children i would never have made the decision to be pts i could have managed him, but at 12 months old no way could i handle him, so there is a big difference in having an aggressive toy breed to a large breed dog.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

I have known many a jack russell cause enough damage to hospitalize an adult,so god knows what they would do to a child.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog. A dog bite is a dog bite. It doesn't matter what size or breed of dog it is.

A licence just would not work, as it's been said many times, the responsible person will comply, the idiots will not.

*The bottom line is that all breeders should be more careful when they sell their puppies and not just look at the ££££££ signs;* they should have contracts in place that the dog should go back to them if there is a problem, proper training - irrespective of breed, is a definite "must-do" and neutering where appropriate should be addressed.

Again, it's only the reputable breeders that do this, and the poor Joe Public have to deal with the fallout, again and again and again. Until people actually do some thorough research into their required breed (and not rely purely on posts on forums...) these people will continue going to BYB's for their dogs. There lies some of the problems.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I say this because of my own experience, we had an extremely badly bred dog that was showing a lot of aggression at a very young age, anyway long story but if he had been a small dog and i hadnt got children i would never have made the decision to be pts i could have managed him, but at 12 months old no way could i handle him, so there is a big difference in having an aggressive toy breed to a large breed dog.


Is that not saying that because YOU could not handle him- no one could? Bit blinkered IMO.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I think its better to actually put an aggressive dog to sleep sometimes, They arent suitable homes all the time that wont come in to contact with children e.t.c Some people would say if she had rehomed him she'd be passing on the problem so she cant win either way can she?!


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## WaveRider (Sep 8, 2009)

"A recent study carried out on 6,000 dogs and their owners found out 33 of the most aggressive dogs, and also those which have good temperaments."

Dangerous Dog Breeds « Dog Bite Claims


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Is that not saying that because YOU could not handle him- no one could? Bit blinkered IMO.


In defence of HM that is a decision she made! Based on THAT dog and THAT situation!
I think you may find that HM is a well 'able' dog owner!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> Is that not saying that because YOU could not handle him- no one could? Bit blinkered IMO.


I couldnt handle him thats what ime saying there is a difference in the type of dog with aggression. Ime not blinkered at all think you misunderstood, he was far too strong for anyone to be safe he decided to go then there would have been nothing i could have done about it and i also had 5 children here and i couldnt have risked them, a smaller dog would have been very different. He actually went on to have a wonderful life, we were very lucky that eventually well the day he was going to be pts someone that had heard about him came forward but even then he could never be trusted with humans.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

EllesBelles said:


> At the moment, the proposed conditions of the dog license are that the name and breed are registered, and a fee is paid each year. The dog must also be microchipped, and vaccinated.
> 
> The fee is something like £15 a year per dog which is paid to the vet on annual health check.
> 
> ...


Here in NI there is a license required (dog registered with the council) and microchipping is compulsory from April this year. Half the dogs that I see out and about don't even have a collar on, never mind tags and a license tag....

I like the idea of a license in principal; but it is just the responsible owners who comply, those who don't give a monkey's about their dog aren't going to pay for one / go on a course / answer a questionnaire etc.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

WaveRider said:


> "A recent study carried out on 6,000 dogs and their owners found out 33 of the most aggressive dogs, and also those which have good temperaments."
> 
> Dangerous Dog Breeds « Dog Bite Claims


hardly scientific as they only had 11 breeds of dog in the control group and an online survey hardly gives accurate info either.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

IndysMamma said:


> there's also the classic - dog may not be great with kids but not actually agressive so not muzzled - screaming 6 year old suddenly hugs dog, dog panics = disaster


I nearly had this today. Louie isn't so good around children, not that he would intentionally hurt one, but he is nervous around them, he's not sure about children. Walking around the woods a woman had her toddler out of the pram and was walking, I didn't see the child until she came into view and was about to squeal and hug Louie who was just passing at a wide berth - not keen on prams either, so I walked very quickly over to Louie and just led him away - I had the woman looking at me as if her child was diseased and I'd sent my dog away for that reason, when I explained he can be a bit nervy around kids, she gave me - it should be on a lead then look. So she got the "it should be in a pram" look..

I hope the girl makes a speedy recovery and there has to be a reason behind the attack, dogs don't attack for no reason - no matter what the breed. Oh and I know of a yorkie that has put an elderly lady in the hospital with a torn ligament before.. not a clean wound to dress either.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> thats all i meant they do much more damage.
> 
> i never said it like my dog was perfect, although rough collies would hardly ever attack, even in defence, they really cant be trained that way.
> 
> saying its how its raised, i do know some da staffs who are in the same homes and raised as other non aggressive ones so i think a bred for temperament should come into it, there are some awful breeders producing dogs with ill temperaments.


From that statement that is saying your breed of choice is well "perfect" sorry but any breed including your rough collie can be nasty if brought up incorrectly just like my dogs if in the wrong hands they could be agressive.

Im truly fed up with people who insist that bull breeds are dangerous dogs, if people control their dogs then they are under control and will not be able too attack dog or human.

Your dog is no better than mine or anyone elses as mine are not better than anyone elses either.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> i have never seen or heard of a rough collie attacking anyone. there are also lots of breeds where there are no attacks too.
> 
> also the rough collie in most standards are highly recommended with children too, all the standards i have.
> 
> ...


I understand why you defend your breed; we all do.

I have noticed though that you always say on every thread with any discussion of aggression that a rough collie will never show aggression to dogs, people etc. I sincerely hope that you never experience a rough collie that is aggressive, but it seems to be a bit of a blinkered view really as all dogs can be aggressive for all manner of reasons. The only dog that my Mum has ever been bitten by (touch wood!) was a rough collie - rare perhaps, but not impossible.

The breeder that I obtained my pup from has never had one of her dogs bite anyone, and I have never met a RR who has bitten anyone - but I am well aware that he has the capacity for aggression and always remember that it could happen (although i would of course be devastated).


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Dogs can and will bite regardless of breed! The KC can put all they like about being good with kids, but it's down the to breeding, the training and the physical and mental health of that dog. Surely most on a dog forum would know that and not feel the need to defend any of their dogs due to the breed of them? 

My Uncles OES was fantastic, she settled me when I started crying, no one could fault her, then several months later (after she'd stopped me crying) she turned and mauled my Uncle.. it was a tumour in her brain.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I am sorry if this offends but if your dog is not good with children then under no circumstances should it be off lead and un muzzled in any situation whereby it could encounter a child.

Children are unpredictable and have every right to be out of a pram. Yes they should be taught not to approach an unknown dog but in reality that has an age limit on it and under the age of 3/4 it's just not possible to teach in most children.

The consequences for a child and subsequently the dog if they come together and it goes horribly wrong are just too awful to take the risk.

There have been many times (because i chose to walk in a public park) when i have had a small child approach Oscar un checked and yes it does irritate me the assumption that he is ok (which he is) BUT if i thought for one minute he wasn't he would be muzzled. No way on earth i wouldd take that risk with a childs face OR my dogs likely death.

Incidents of dogs biting children in the news will be the end of dogs being able to be off lead in regular parks, i guarantee it.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am sorry if this offends but if your dog is not good with children then under no circumstances should it be off lead and un muzzled in any situation whereby it could encounter a child.
> .


I don't like dogs off lead with children, unless its the families own dog.

Children are loud, unpredictable, in the dogs face, inappropriate and in a dogs eyes, a threat.

I never, ever allow my boys to be off lead around kids, i just dont think the risk is worth it. I trust my boys, but i dont trust kids. And after a few experience with how badly behaved kids can be, i feel justified.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am sorry if this offends but if your dog is not good with children then under no circumstances should it be off lead and un muzzled in any situation whereby it could encounter a child.
> 
> Children are unpredictable and have every right to be out of a pram. Yes they should be taught not to approach an unknown dog but in reality that has an age limit on it and under the age of 3/4 it's just not possible to teach in most children.
> 
> ...


Eh, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this at all.
If you are in an area where dogs are off lead, as a parent, you have to make sure your child is under control, just like you have to make sure your dog is under control. And I am a parent of a 3- and a 1-year-old.
There should be a mutual respect for each other. As a parent, you can't go round saying "my child has a right to roam free in the park and can do whatever it likes"!! :nonod:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am sorry if this offends but if your dog is not good with children then under no circumstances should it be off lead and un muzzled in any situation whereby it could encounter a child.
> 
> Children are unpredictable and have every right to be out of a pram. Yes they should be taught not to approach an unknown dog but in reality that has an age limit on it and under the age of 3/4 it's just not possible to teach in most children.
> 
> ...


Think i must have missed the post that you seem to be refering to, but i have to agree children have to come first and be allowed to walk around without the risk of been attacked or bitten, luckily mine dont pay any attention to children they walk or run straight passed them thats how i have brought them up because our first springer was very bouncy as a youngster and jumped and knocked a child over just through fussiness, so from then ide call him to me and walk him straight past childrenand i did that from day 1 with my other 2. They are fine with them and if a child asks to stroke them i can call them to me and they will stand and be stroked and love it.BUT children have to be the main priority of any dog owner.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am sorry if this offends but if your dog is not good with children then under no circumstances should it be off lead and un muzzled in any situation whereby it could encounter a child.
> 
> Children are unpredictable and have every right to be out of a pram. Yes they should be taught not to approach an unknown dog but in reality that has an age limit on it and under the age of 3/4 it's just not possible to teach in most children.
> 
> ...


I don't know if you have seen the edit - but Louie was giving the pram a WIDE berth. I thought the child was in the pram - she was behind the woman - I couldn't see her neither could Louie. And it was the child that was about to run up to my dog.. not the other way around.

AND I did say he is nervous - he would flight rather than fight - he has shown he will do this with my neice when she gets too close to him (of which there is always a babygate inbetween)

I know my parents had a rein for me when I was a toddler and couldn't fully understand the world or why I couldn't approach that dog over yonder. So I could be out of a pram and be safe but under control. And I know for a fact they still exist.

I'm not going to muzzle my dog because some idiot parent allows their child to run up to strange animals, what would you say to any of the horse riders around the same walk - to tie the horses feet together so they can't kick any child that came near them because of their stupid parent? Bloody ridiculous!

And I'm especially not going to muzzle Louie because he gives children and prams a wide berth - he always has. And I hope my telling her that my dog isn't that good will wake up some sense in her to realise that not all dogs like a squealing toddler running up to them!


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Here in NI there is a license required (dog registered with the council) and microchipping is compulsory from April this year. Half the dogs that I see out and about don't even have a collar on, never mind tags and a license tag....
> 
> I like the idea of a license in principal; but it is just the responsible owners who comply, those who don't give a monkey's about their dog aren't going to pay for one / go on a course / answer a questionnaire etc.


Just like here, this year Microchipping has come in to force and I'm all for it but who's going to police it?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Eh, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this at all.
> If you are in an area where dogs are off lead, as a parent, you have to make sure your child is under control, just like you have to make sure your dog is under control. And I am a parent of a 3- and a 1-year-old.
> There should be a mutual respect for each other. As a parent, you can't go round saying "my child has a right to roam free in the park and can do whatever it likes"!! :nonod:


Of course there should be a mutual respect however children are just as unpredictable as dogs yet dogs have the ability to do far more damage than the child does. Equally an owner should be in full control of its dog and if a dog is unhappy round children and could bite a child if a child approached then that owner is NOT capable of controlling its dog. A dog that bites is hardly "in control".

My kids love a walk round the woods and enjoy the freedom that comes with that. If my child is 20 yards ahead of me in full view and we round a corner and meet an off lead dog that cant be recalled from the child quickly enough and subsequently bites the child then hell yes i would have something to say about it. Dogs are generally quicker that the average 2 year old and it doesn't matter what a dog owner sais the reality is that if that dog bites that child the owner just signed its death warrant. I wouldn't take that risk with my dog.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

BBC News - Microchip call after Kirsten Barrett's guide dog mauled
Yet another staffie type, try explaining this with statistics. Going round in circles saying small and toy breeds are more aggressive, that may be true but they do less damage.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> BBC News - Microchip call after Kirsten Barrett's guide dog mauled
> Yet another staffie type, try explaining this with statistics. Going round in circles saying small and toy breeds are more aggressive, that may be true but they do less damage.


a rottweiler *and* a Staffordshire bull terrier cross !!!!

Police believe that the dogs had been dumped by their owners!!!

yet again bad owners !!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

SLB said:


> I don't know if you have seen the edit - but Louie was giving the pram a WIDE berth. I thought the child was in the pram - she was behind the woman - I couldn't see her neither could Louie. And it was the child that was about to run up to my dog.. not the other way around.
> 
> AND I did say he is nervous - he would flight rather than fight - he has shown he will do this with my neice when she gets too close to him (of which there is always a babygate inbetween)
> 
> ...


Horses are an obvious risk to parents. An OFF LEAD dog is not. It would never occur to me that someone would let a dog offlead in an area where there were likely to be children if it had an issue with children.

Why should my child be "on lead" (reins) in a community park it is not a danger to anyone


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> I have known many a jack russell cause enough damage to hospitalize an adult,so god knows what they would do to a child.


I think theres a lot of judgemental people on this thread, none of us were there yesterday to see what happened to this poor young girl. We know nothing about the dog or its owners. 
If I commented on this thread about Bull breeds like that I'd be shot down in flames- and rightly so. Dont bash other breeds- just to defend 1.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> BBC News - Microchip call after Kirsten Barrett's guide dog mauled
> Yet another staffie type, try explaining this with statistics. Going round in circles saying small and toy breeds are more aggressive, that may be true but they do less damage.


No owners in site for the staffie x and rotty thought too be dumped irresponsible owners, not undercontrol no statistics needed so please take your arse out of your head.

We all know bigger breeds including labs etc can cause more damage than a small dog its not rocket science.

I would never say small breeds are more agressive than any other breed its how you bring them up.

What do you suggest would you like all bull breeds too be banned is that what you would like ?


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> Just like here, this year Microchipping has come in to force and I'm all for it but who's going to police it?


If it's similar to the suggested scheme here, then it will be checked at the vets, and by dog wardens.

Dog's without chips will be given one week to become chipped, then the owners will be fined and the dogs seized until microchipping occurs.

Although this is all in consultation at the moment, and I'm not sure if its the same system used elsewhere.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

EllesBelles said:


> If it's similar to the suggested scheme here, then it will be checked at the vets, and by dog wardens.
> 
> Dog's without chips will be given one week to become chipped, then the owners will be fined and the dogs seized until microchipping occurs.
> 
> Although this is all in consultation at the moment, and I'm not sure if its the same system used elsewhere.


And what about dogs that never go to the vets???


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

The American Temperament Test Society conduct independent tests to assess the soundness of temperament towards humans across all breeds having tested tens of thousands of dogs. The pass rate for APBTs, SBTs and AmStaffs is higher than many "safe dogs" - Golden Retrievers, Collies, Lhasas to name a few. Labradors are higher, mine are lower. I see their results as reliable as they are conducted without prejudice and in controlled conditions.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> And what about dogs that never go to the vets???


Or ever see a dog warden; never seen one in my life!


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> BBC News - Microchip call after Kirsten Barrett's guide dog mauled
> Yet another staffie type, try explaining this with statistics. Going round in circles saying small and toy breeds are more aggressive, that may be true but they do less damage.


I do believe that microchipping should be compulsory for many reasons but not sure how this claim would work "it will change the culture of dog ownership, *and stamp out the back-street breeders*." as suggested in this article


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> From that statement that is saying your breed of choice is well "perfect" sorry but any breed including your rough collie can be nasty if brought up incorrectly just like my dogs if in the wrong hands they could be agressive.
> 
> Im truly fed up with people who insist that bull breeds are dangerous dogs, if people control their dogs then they are under control and will not be able too attack dog or human.
> 
> Your dog is no better than mine or anyone elses as mine are not better than anyone elses either.


i only said as much because of you saying 'even your precious dog' in such a way!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

SLB said:


> I don't know if you have seen the edit - but Louie was giving the pram a WIDE berth. I thought the child was in the pram - she was behind the woman - I couldn't see her neither could Louie. And it was the child that was about to run up to my dog.. not the other way around.
> 
> AND I did say he is nervous - he would flight rather than fight - he has shown he will do this with my neice when she gets too close to him (of which there is always a babygate inbetween)
> 
> ...


The fact is, should a child run up to your dog there is NOTHING you can do. If your dog isnt 100% with children and in shock bites there IS something the parent can do. The dog would be destroyed. Its not even about respect its about protecting your own pet.

I love dogs but children come first at all times. I have to agree with Rainy, if there are any doubt IMO an owner should muzzle. Its as much about protecting your dog as protecting others.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> BBC News - Microchip call after Kirsten Barrett's guide dog mauled
> Yet another staffie type, try explaining this with statistics. Going round in circles saying small and toy breeds are more aggressive, that may be true but they do less damage.


No need for stats to proof anything, the story itself beats anything stats could. Try saying small dogs do less damage to the parents of children killed by small dogs. Also like the way you singled out the staffie, when there was another breed of dog involved.

I say all this and I am not a staffie owner, so have no need to stick up "for my breed". Indeed I do not even have a dog at present, but will gladly stand up for any breed. All dogs have teeth, so can bite, all sizes of dogs have killed people.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> i have never seen or heard of a rough collie attacking anyone.
> 
> My friend was attacked by one. The reason you don't hear is because the press don't like to pick on your breed!!


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

PaulRyan said:


> I do believe that microchipping should be compulsory for many reasons but not sure how this claim would work "it will change the culture of dog ownership, *and stamp out the back-street breeders*." as suggested in this article


Microchipping is a waste of time when you consider that when someone's dog is attacked by another dog and then the vet refuses to give the owners details on the dogs microchip!!!


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> i only said as much because of you saying 'even your precious dog' in such a way!


From something another member posted about your past posts i think you believe your dog breed is better than anoyone else, breaking news love its not.

I put about your "precious dog" because you appear too think that your dog dosnt have the capability too attack, in the wrong hands it does any breed does.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I understand why you defend your breed; we all do.
> 
> I have noticed though that you always say on every thread with any discussion of aggression that a rough collie will never show aggression to dogs, people etc. I sincerely hope that you never experience a rough collie that is aggressive, but it seems to be a bit of a blinkered view really as all dogs can be aggressive for all manner of reasons. The only dog that my Mum has ever been bitten by (touch wood!) was a rough collie - rare perhaps, but not impossible.
> 
> The breeder that I obtained my pup from has never had one of her dogs bite anyone, and I have never met a RR who has bitten anyone - but I am well aware that he has the capacity for aggression and always remember that it could happen (although i would of course be devastated).


a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, they do not have an aggressive side. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.

this is what i know of the breed, i do bring it up as it is just a face as sbt owners bring up the fact they are nanny dogs too. in the breed book it states in the war when trying to train dogs to be aggressive they couldnt get rough collies to react.

i'm sorry your mum got bitten by one but its not very common, especially a mauling type bite.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> From something another member posted about your past posts i think you believe your dog breed is better than anoyone else, breaking news love its not.
> 
> I put about your "precious dog" because you appear too think that your dog dosnt have the capability too attack, in the wrong hands it does any breed does.


well dont the posters who state that sbt are the best breed think so too, i think everyone on here loves the breed they choose for certain reasons and to go on what someone else said about posts is not to go on the truth.

i love my breed of course but there are many other great breeds out there i love and would love to own.

also my dog was attacked twice and never retailiated like most of my others who have been attacked.

i dont see why launcing on me for liking my own breed is to the point of a child being attacked!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, they do not have an aggressive side. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.
> 
> this is what i know of the breed, i do bring it up as it is just a face as sbt owners bring up the fact they are nanny dogs too. in the breed book it states in the war when trying to train dogs to be aggressive they couldnt get rough collies to react.
> 
> i'm sorry your mum got bitten by one but its not very common, especially a mauling type bite.


I know of 2 aggressive Rough Collies that we encounter on our walks. My Cassie spots them a mile off.... they are always off lead too


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Horses are an obvious risk to parents. An OFF LEAD dog is not. It would never occur to me that someone would let a dog offlead in an area where there were likely to be children if it had an issue with children.
> 
> Why should my child be "on lead" (reins) in a community park it is not a danger to anyone


Okay, you probably won't like this, but an "unpredictable" free-roaming child IS a danger, exactly for the reason you mentioned. 
My children would never be 20 yards away from me in an area with off lead dogs. I would never trust my 1-year old around dogs, especially not dogs I don't know. So, he doesn't run around far away from me when dogs are off lead. Simples, really.
In our house, we make sure Terence is happy first, ie no poking, prodding or similar misdemeanours when he is present. They don't get away with whatever they feel like doing to him or around him. I believe that's called being a responsible parent and dog owner.
Why this responsibility should stop once I have left my own home, I really don't understand.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> The fact is, should a child run up to your dog there is NOTHING you can do. If your dog isnt 100% with children and in shock bites there IS something the parent can do. The dog would be destroyed. Its not even about respect its about protecting your own pet.
> 
> I love dogs but children come first at all times. I have to agree with Rainy, if there are any doubt IMO an owner should muzzle. Its as much about protecting your dog as protecting others.


So I have to muzzle and leash my dog because parents don't have control over their children?

Nice one! My dog who was minding his own business, walking past relatively far away from her has to now be leashed and muzzled around a woodland which is very popular with dog walkers and horse riders because of people's children? Fan-bloody-tastic - makes perfect sense, so much so that I am going to go and have a glass of wine to celebrate because I have seen the light and I now know what I am doing wrong! What a load of tosh! As for the reins, mine were quite long - like a long line for children. :sosp:

I don't see how my teaching my dog to give children a wide berth because he has this fear of them has anything to do with that parents child. I am responsible for my dog and my dog has been taught to move away from children - therefore the stupidity lies with the parents.

And just so you know - he'd walked past dozens of children today without incident due to his training!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, *they do not have an aggressive side*. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.
> 
> this is what i know of the breed, i do bring it up as it is just a face as sbt owners bring up the fact they are nanny dogs too. in the breed book it states in the war when trying to train dogs to be aggressive they couldnt get rough collies to react.
> 
> i'm sorry your mum got bitten by one but its not very common, especially a mauling type bite.


I don't deny that it is probably uncommon, but do find the statement that I have added bold to a little disturbing and certainly blinkered especially after a few folk on here saying that they / a relative has been bitten by one.


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> And what about dogs that never go to the vets???





Dogless said:


> Or ever see a dog warden; never seen one in my life!


It's not my scheme! 

I was just explaining it as I understand it, in response to the dog licensing argument. I don't think it would make a difference in incidents such as these ones, personally.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

There are not many breeds that aren't capable of doing serious damage if they attack however it is a sad fact that certain sectors of society have "adopted" certain breeds as status symbols and bring those dogs up to behave in a certain way, Golden retrievers are big powerful dogs capable of inflicting serious damage in the wrong hands but don't have the street cred a staffie does. Not* ALL * owners of these breeds own them for this reason but you cant ignore the problem. This enables the media to target these breeds when in fact we all know it's the owners that should be targeted.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, they do not have an aggressive side. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.
> 
> this is what i know of the breed, i do bring it up as it is just a face as sbt owners bring up the fact they are nanny dogs too. in the breed book it states in the war when trying to train dogs to be aggressive they couldnt get rough collies to react.
> 
> *i'm sorry your mum got bitten by one but its not very common, especially a mauling type bite*.


Similarly, it is not very common that a bully should bite. It just gets reported. I believe that is all that Dogless is trying to say.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> well dont the posters who state that sbt are the best breed, i think everyone on here loves the breed they choose for certain reasons and to go on what someone else said about posts is not to go on the truth.
> 
> i love my breed of course but there are many other great breeds out there i love and would love to own.


Of course we all believe our breeds are the best dosnt make them any better than any other breed thou just means they are the best breed for that person.

I would never say that a staffy wouldnt attack of course we all now different but all breeds have the potential too attack whatever breed you may think rough collies wont but i think we all know raised incorrectly they can. They are dogs after all can't get away from that.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

EllesBelles said:


> It's not my scheme!
> 
> I was just explaining it as I understand it, in response to the dog licensing argument. I don't think it would make a difference in incidents such as these ones, personally.


I know, not attacking; just discussing pitfalls as I see them .

I agree that I don't think it would have made any difference in incidents such as the subject of this thread.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

There is alot of breed bashing going on  arent we all here to defend breeds and keep them from being labelled as 'dangerous'?? I love all dog breeds and imo all dogs have the abilty to bite and hurt someone, no breed is perfect.


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

I was more thinking for lost or stolen dogs


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> There are not many breeds that aren't capable of doing serious damage if they attack however it is a sad fact that certain sectors of society have "adopted" certain breeds as status symbols and bring those dogs up to behave in a certain way, Golden retrievers are big powerful dogs capable of inflicting serious damage in the wrong hands but don't have the street cred a staffie does. Not* ALL * owners of these breeds own them for this reason but you cant ignore the problem. This enables the media to target these breeds when in fact we all know it's the owners that should be targeted.


Now, this I agree with completely!
Unfortunately, in my area, the new street cred dogs are husky and akita types.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> In defence of HM that is a decision she made! Based on THAT dog and THAT situation!
> I think you may find that HM is a well 'able' dog owner!


I did not say she was not able generally- but with that dog, in that situation obviously not, so no need to go on the defensive. As it turns out dog was handled by someone else in a different situation just fine and was not PTS.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

SLB said:


> So I have to muzzle and leash my dog because parents don't have control over their children?
> 
> Nice one! My dog who was minding his own business, walking past relatively far away from her has to now be leashed and muzzled around a woodland which is very popular with dog walkers and horse riders because of people's children? Fan-bloody-tastic - makes perfect sense, so much so that I am going to go and have a glass of wine to celebrate because I have seen the light and I now know what I am doing wrong! What a load of tosh! As for the reins, mine were quite long - like a long line for children. :sosp:
> 
> ...




Then you don't have a problem dog and i am not really sure what you are going on about 

However if a child does come round a corner and "suprise" your dog accidently and it does bite the child then thats your call. We all weight up the risks when walking our dogs off lead.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Okay, you probably won't like this, but an "unpredictable" free-roaming child IS a danger, exactly for the reason you mentioned.
> My children would never be 20 yards away from me in an area with off lead dogs. I would never trust my 1-year old around dogs, especially not dogs I don't know. So, he doesn't run around far away from me when dogs are off lead. Simples, really.
> In our house, we make sure Terence is happy first, ie no poking, prodding or similar misdemeanours when he is present. They don't get away with whatever they feel like doing to him or around him. I believe that's called being a responsible parent and dog owner.
> Why this responsibility should stop once I have left my own home, I really don't understand.


Its the same with parents and dog owners, some are good and some are bad. Like you, I am strict with my children. Even my youngest who is 4 would ask before approaching a strange dog. It doesnt mean all children will do the same, often like dogs they can be unpredictable and they do make mistakes.
This doesnt mean all parents are the same. 


SLB said:


> So I have to muzzle and leash my dog because parents don't have control over their children?
> 
> Nice one! My dog who was minding his own business, walking past relatively far away from her has to now be leashed and muzzled around a woodland which is very popular with dog walkers and horse riders because of people's children? Fan-bloody-tastic - makes perfect sense, so much so that I am going to go and have a glass of wine to celebrate because I have seen the light and I now know what I am doing wrong! What a load of tosh! As for the reins, mine were quite long - like a long line for children. :sosp:
> 
> ...


The stupidity may lie with the parent but the facts are if anything did happen the responsibilty would lie with you regardless of what the child did and the dog put to sleep. Unfortunatly these are facts. Enjoy your wine


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> also my dog was attacked twice and never retailiated like most of my others who have been attacked.


My SBT X has been bitten twice- once breaking the skin resulting in a nasty puncture wound, the other a dog got hold of his scruff HE as an SBT did not retaliate AT ALL- it is about INDIVIDUAL dogs NOT breeds.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> I know of 2 aggressive Rough Collies that we encounter on our walks. My Cassie spots them a mile off.... they are always off lead too


We see one too Claire, but never had no problems with them personally, perhaps we do the same walk Claire  We tend to walk the other way if we spot them!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> Its the same with parents and dog owners, some are good and some are bad. Like you, I am strict with my children. Even my youngest who is 4 would ask before approaching a strange dog. It doesnt mean all children will do the same, often like dogs they can be unpredictable and they do make mistakes.
> This doesnt mean all parents are the same.
> 
> The stupidity may lie with the parent but the facts are if anything did happen the responsibilty would lie with you regardless of what the child did and the dog put to sleep. Unfortunatly these are facts. Enjoy your wine


Agreed. It is all very well claiming a dogs "rights" but that doesn't alter the facts and the way society/the law in general would view an incident where a child was bitten.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> [/B]
> 
> Then you don't have a problem dog and i am not really sure what you are going on about
> 
> However if a child does come round a corner and "suprise" your dog accidently and it does bite the child then thats your call. We all weight up the risks when walking our dogs off lead.


I was confused by that if there is no problem with the dog and training is solid why the aggression from the poster????


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

tashax said:


> There is alot of breed bashing going on  arent we all here to defend breeds and keep them from being labelled as 'dangerous'?? I love all dog breeds and imo all dogs have the abilty to bite and hurt someone, no breed is perfect.


Just what im trying too get accross .

I wouldnt bash another breed i love dogs all dogs and thought others here did too but finding it hard too believe with some posts. People may not want too own a certain breed fair enough but too bash them is wrong.

Would be silly for anyone too think their breed is perfect, we arnt perfect so are dogs cant be either imo.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

DT said:


> We see one too Claire, but never had no problems with them personally, perhaps we do the same walk Claire  We tend to walk the other way if we spot them!


It may be the same one Sue we saw it last at Berry Hill, Its extra mean. Cassie sees it walk on the field from miles away, she always remembers it. It pulls an old fella round.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Just what im trying too get accross .
> 
> I wouldnt bash another breed i love dogs all dogs and thought others here did too but finding it hard too believe with some posts. People may not want too own a certain breed fair enough but too bash them is wrong.
> 
> Would be silly for anyone too think their breed is perfect, we arnt perfect so are dogs cant be either imo.


Just for the record, i wasn't bashing ANY breed, whatever i wrote would apply to a yorkie, lab, staffie or any dog that is known to be unpredictable with children.

I would definately say i come across more "other" breeds that i wouldn't let my kids approach (from observing body language etc) than i do the so called "dangerous" breeds


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, they do not have an aggressive side. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.
> 
> this is what i know of the breed, i do bring it up as it is just a face as sbt owners bring up the fact they are nanny dogs too. in the breed book it states in the war when trying to train dogs to be aggressive they couldnt get rough collies to react.
> 
> i'm sorry your mum got bitten by one but its not very common, especially a mauling type bite.


I've seen first hand rough collies chasing and attacking children on 2 different occasions, one child ended up in hospital, I've met way more SBT than rough collies and have only seen 1 aggressive incident and that was dog on dog. I should add these events doesn't make me think the breed of either dog are better or worse than each other. 1 incident of 1 dog shouldn't tarnish the breed... unless the media are involved of course..


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Please have a peek at my so called dangerous breed








My 5 year old Akita Cassie on the tram at crich tramway musiem


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Whatever breed of dog it was,why was it off lead when near children are playing? i count both my dogs as child friendly, but if i am out over the country park where many people walk there dogs, i will put my dogs on lead if i come across children playing,, children shout/scream/etc when playing, they could also fall over onto a dog, in my view dogs off lead and children playing in a park is a no no.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, they do not have an aggressive side. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.
> 
> this is what i know of the breed, i do bring it up as it is just a face as sbt owners bring up the fact they are nanny dogs too. in the breed book it states in the war when trying to train dogs to be aggressive they couldnt get rough collies to react.
> 
> i'm sorry your mum got bitten by one but its not very common, especially a mauling type bite.


You might want to make google your friend, your new friend will help you find proof that Rough Collies have attacked many a fellow 4 legged animal.

You seem to be stuck on the fact that Rough Collies are extremely hard to train to attack on command, this does not make them any safer than any other breed of dog. It just means they are harder to get to train to attack, then again even if they could be trained to do so, as with the "easy to train attackers" it is humans who train them. That is the point many here have been making, the human's training (or lack of) has alot to do with a dog's actions.

You seem a good dog owner, who has a well behaved Rough Collie. Why is he so well behaved? It's because of the effort you have put in. That said does that mean he is 100% not going to attack anyone. Bet if I was there pulling its tail or poking it with a stick (like a child would) and continued to do so while I ignored its warning bark or etc, he would attack me. Doubt he would leave me continue just because he is what you consider a safe breed.

This scenerio of course could be done with any breed, no breed will just sit there and let someone wind them up. A Collie will react in exactly the same way as a Staffie, a Lab, a Yorkie, and so on either through lack of control,training or to being teased etc. Not to mention the dogs who attack due to neurological reasons.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> I did not say she was not able generally- but with that dog, in that situation obviously not, so no need to go on the defensive. As it turns out dog was handled by someone else in a different situation just fine and was not PTS.


Thats ok understood now, he went to a small holding, spent his life guarding, had lots of room to roam around and was happy he was bred to guard that was the main problem, he thought he had to guard us anyone approach even if they were just walking past he would attack, 3 behaviourists saw him and couldnt believe what they were seeing from such a young dog, he actually with 1 pull brought down a fence panel trying to get to our neighbours he went or a leaflet delivery man as he passed the leaflet to me in the street,a little girl on the street who knows me shouted and waved and he dragged me and clawed a hole n her jacket he we had a hellish time with him and i could go on, now this is what i was meaning by a small breed with the same intentions as him been very different. Our only option was to have him pts in the end.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> a rough collie that shows any aggression IS very few and far between, i have been around very many was raised with them and seen them all my life, they do not have an aggressive side. having had many in our family we have all never been bitten, they have never bitten anyone or another dog even in retaliation.


I believe that you've never had this problem because you and your family have brought them up well, been great dog owners, treated them with care and respect, included them as part of your family and trained them appropriately, therefore ending up with excellent canine companions 

I really hope that my dogs will never bite anyone or any dogs. I see no reason that they would because I work hard to make them the best that they can be - and I am always awake when I take them out - I never take their good natures for granted.

Naomi x


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Just what im trying too get accross .
> 
> I wouldnt bash another breed i love dogs all dogs and thought others here did too but finding it hard too believe with some posts. People may not want too own a certain breed fair enough but too bash them is wrong.
> 
> Would be silly for anyone too think their breed is perfect, we arnt perfect so are dogs cant be either imo.


That wasnt aimed at anyone, its just i was thinking i am on an animal lovers site and to have people say 'i am a dog lover' and then say 'but maybe not this breed' is ridiculous tbh. I have owned staffys, JRs, collies, GSD, rottie, whippet and a dobbie and none of them have ever bitten or show aggression towards anyone apart from a JR that i used to own who didnt like men (was for good reason). Frey is terrified of kids and will run away from them if she sees them, if i thought she was a danger i would muzzle her when walking her but i dont walk her near kids. Only because there arent alot of them down the fields. I know for a fact that frey and harvey and kylo have the capacity and the means to bite someone and do some serious damage, doesnt mean their going to.

Here we are saying the DDA should be removed and that all these new laws they are thinking of bringing out to have stricter control on breeds such as staffs shouldnt be here buts its people that label them as dangerous that are causing all the damage. No doubt there has been just as many attacks by a different breeds but when people go on and on in the media and else where about it being a bull breed and they should be banned it just adds fuel to the fire, 'dog lovers' should not be adding more fuel imo.

P.S my first dog was a staff, i got her at 14 and she moved out with me when i turned 15 she was barely a year old and not 'completely' trained. She was a perfect first dog and was amazing with everything and everyone she met (bar hedgehogs)


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

hazel pritchard said:


> Whatever breed of dog it was,why was it off lead when near children are playing? i count both my dogs as child friendly, but if i am out over the country park where many people walk there dogs, i will put my dogs on lead if i come across children playing,, children shout/scream/etc when playing, they could also fall over onto a dog, in my view dogs off lead and children playing in a park is a no no.


Very good point. Dex would be put on a lead- (if he was an offlead dog!) around kids as the squealing, running behaviour of kids could be WAY too exciting, and I could not ensure he would not knock them over in his OTTness, and then lick them to death!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Agreed. It is all very well claiming a dogs "rights" but that doesn't alter the facts and the way society/the law in general would view an incident where a child was bitten.


It is not about claiming dogs rights rainybow! none of us know what happened prior to THIS attack, and reading between the lines probably nothing - it was unprovoked!
But that said there are instances where a child, not properly supervised has lets say clung onto the dogs ears to pull itself up! That imo is human error ! why should a dog be labelled a savage because of such?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> Whatever breed of dog it was,why was it off lead when near children are playing? i count both my dogs as child friendly, but if i am out over the country park where many people walk there dogs, i will put my dogs on lead if i come across children playing,, children shout/scream/etc when playing, they could also fall over onto a dog, in my view dogs off lead and children playing in a park is a no no.


There are 2 very distinct areas in my park, onlead area (kids main playing area) and off lead in the woods. In the offlead area i expect parents to be ok with my dog being offlead (some aren't even though he is fine round kids and pays them no atttention ) However if he wasn't ok with kids there is no way i would have him offlead in either area. The risks to both parties are too great.

There is no way i would put the life of my dog in the hands of some of todays parents.

i have had my heart in mouth several times at the cafe where i haave turned round to find a toddler draped all over Oscar and a numpty parent smiling inanely, thinking it is super cute  Oscar is pretty bombproof but even my heart skips a beat.

People who don't own dogs don't understand dogs therefore will not apply the same rules a dog savvy parent would.

Wether you agree or like it or not it doesn't change the fact


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Thats ok understood now, he went to a small holding, spent his life guarding, had lots of room to roam around and was happy he was bred to guard that was the main problem, he thought he had to guard us anyone approach even if they were just walking past he would attack, 3 behaviourists saw him and couldnt believe what they were seeing from such a young dog, he actually with 1 pull brought down a fence panel trying to get to our neighbours he went or a leaflet delivery man as he passed the leaflet to me in the street,a little girl on the street who knows me shouted and waved and he dragged me and clawed a hole n her jacket he we had a hellish time with him and i could go on, now this is what i was meaning by a small breed with the same intentions as him been very different. Our only option was to have him pts in the end.


It is actually very brave to accept you are not the perfect owner for a dog and rehome to someone who is.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> There are 2 very distinct areas in my park, onlead area (kids main playing area) and off lead in the woods. In the offlead area i expect parents to be ok with my dog being offlead (some aren't even though he is fine round kids and pays them no atttention ) However if he wasn't ok with kids there is no way i would have him offlead in either area. The risks to both parties are too great.
> 
> There is no way i would put the life of my dog in the hands of some of todays parents.
> 
> ...


How about we have a rule whereby parents keep their children under control! That would suit me nicely Very nicely infact!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> It is actually very brave to accept you are not the perfect owner for a dog and rehome to someone who is.


thats perhaps because she is perhaps a ' better 'owner then 'many;


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

DT said:


> How about we have a rule whereby parents keep their children under control! That would suit me nicely Very nicely infact!


Hehe, I agree with this. I like my own kids, but other people's are just a tad annoying sometimes.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> thats perhaps because she is perhaps a ' better 'owner then 'many;


Arent we all?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

DT said:


> How about we have a rule whereby parents keep their children under control! That would suit me nicely Very nicely infact!


It would work very nicely for all DT. Problem being you only have to watch Jermery Kyle to see the sort of moron that are firing kids out here, there and everywhere to see why children being undercontrol just wont happen lol.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> It may be the same one Sue we saw it last at Berry Hill, Its extra mean. Cassie sees it walk on the field from miles away, she always remembers it. It pulls an old fella round.


This is walked by an elderly lady, We have not seen it for a while though and fear the the old lady may be ill!

My aunt and uncle used to live off Berry Hill! Intake Drive, or Intake avenue, summat like that!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

DT said:


> This is walked by an elderly lady, We have not seen it for a while though and fear the the old lady may be ill!
> 
> My aunt and uncle used to live off Berry Hill! Intake Drive, or Intake avenue, summat like that!


Its a lovely walk there, around the pond and through the woods. Nice little park too for the monsters


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

tashax said:


> That wasnt aimed at anyone, its just i was thinking i am on an animal lovers site and to have people say 'i am a dog lover' and then say 'but maybe not this breed' is ridiculous tbh. I have owned staffys, JRs, collies, GSD, rottie, whippet and a dobbie and none of them have ever bitten or show aggression towards anyone apart from a JR that i used to own who didnt like men (was for good reason). Frey is terrified of kids and will run away from them if she sees them, if i thought she was a danger i would muzzle her when walking her but i dont walk her near kids. Only because there arent alot of them down the fields. I know for a fact that frey and harvey and kylo have the capacity and the means to bite someone and do some serious damage, doesnt mean their going to.
> 
> Here we are saying the DDA should be removed and that all these new laws they are thinking of bringing out to have stricter control on breeds such as staffs shouldnt be here buts its people that label them as dangerous that are causing all the damage. No doubt there has been just as many attacks by a different breeds but when people go on and on in the media and else where about it being a bull breed and they should be banned it just adds fuel to the fire, 'dog lovers' should not be adding more fuel imo.
> 
> P.S my first dog was a staff, i got her at 14 and she moved out with me when i turned 15 she was barely a year old and not 'completely' trained. She was a perfect first dog and was amazing with everything and everyone she met (bar hedgehogs)


Totally agree i know you wernt aiming it at anyone i was just saying my bit lol


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

I think also some of these ideas are to do with the sheer number of dogs of a given breed...

Rough collies (to use the example given earlier) are really not that common. My great-grandfather bred them, and my mum's family owned them until the 1950's...but I think I have only met two in my whole life, and being a dog owner (and dog fanatic) I think I'd have noticed, and I do visit a lot of doggie areas. As they are not that common, to obtain one, would, generally speaking require a bit of effort. I couldn't go out tomorrow and come home with a pup tomorrow evening.

Staffies on the other hand...are rather more common. I could go into work tomorrow, and by the time I come home again (if I took some money with me) I could come home with puppies from at least 6 different households - and that's just the ones I know about. I know of a lot of litters in the area where I work. When something is easy to obtain, and costs very little, it will be come more widespread - some owners will be amazing, some may have bought on a whim, some may be well meaning but clueless, some may be badly bred and badly treated. Surely this, to some extent explains why we have maybe met more ill mannered or poor natured dogs of more common breeds...than less common breeds.

It's like saying my dogs have been bombed by more labradors than curly coated retrievers so labradors are an ill-mannered breed of dogs. It may be that labradors like to do this, it's really that I see more of them...I've never even met a curly coated retriever. If there are more SBT's in one area, than there are anything else, it would be weird if they didn't have the most "incidents". Just like in the 90's there seemed to be loads of rotties, or in the 80's GSD's or the 70's Dobermann - think it's more to do with the current dog fashion than anything else...

Hope this makes sense?!
Naomi


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DT said:


> How about we have a rule whereby parents keep their children under control! That would suit me nicely Very nicely infact!


But the simple fact is they don't.

I still cannot understand walking a dog offlead that is known to be aggresive to children in area where children are "loose".


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> But the simple fact is they don't.
> 
> I still cannot understand walking a dog offlead that is known to be aggresive to children in area where children are "loose".


Rainy! anyone walking an agressive dog should NOT be doing so in public anyway, at least without a muzzle. I know !!! but I was of the understanding this dog was leashed! feel free to correct me if I;m wrong!
but in the same vain spupid parents should not allow their spogs to approach a dog wether it be on or off a lead!
OK! that comment has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this thread!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DT said:


> Rainy! *anyone walking an agressive dog should NOT be doing so in public anyway, at least without a muzzle.* I know !!! but I was of the understanding this dog was leashed! feel free to correct me if I;m wrong!
> *but in the same vain spupid parents should not allow their spogs to approach a dog wether it be on or off a lead!* OK! that comment has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this thread!


I agree.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> Rainy! anyone walking an agressive dog should NOT be doing so in public anyway, at least without a muzzle. I know !!! but I was of the understanding this dog was leashed! feel free to correct me if I;m wrong!
> but in the same vain spupid parents should not allow their spogs to approach a dog wether it be on or off a lead!
> OK! that comment has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this thread!


Scuse my ignorance but where do you walk an aggressive dog then if not in public?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I agree.


Good

coz not got time for an Rainybow DT dingdong


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I hope this poor little girl recovers quickly.


rotties4eva said:


> Of course a Yorkie can damage a child all dogs have teeth !!


Not a Yorkie but a Pomeranian killed a baby
Pomeranian Kills Baby | Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog - Los Angeles Times

And a Dachshund chewed a 4 month olds genitals off.
Dachshund Mutilates Boy's Genitals -- Zootoo Pet News

ANY dog of ANY size and ANY breed can cause serious damage. Sure, a bigger dog is able to do more damage more quickly but don't dismiss the smaller dogs, they can kill and maim too.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Scuse my ignorance but where do you walk an aggressive dog then if not in public?


Excuse me too, read my post!
I said you do not walk an agressive dog in public unless muzzled!

that is a known agreesive dog of course so room for argument there!


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> No owners in site for the staffie x and rotty thought too be dumped irresponsible owners, not undercontrol no statistics needed so please take your arse out of your head.


I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then. Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then. Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


Your very cocky and there was no need for that


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes, i understand the idiots who get them and this happens but there are instances of long standing family dogs suddenly turning and attacking.
> 
> there is a difference too as a yorkie could never get that much strength on a child, the parents gave an interview and said both of them couldnt pry the dog off the little girl.
> 
> the owner is to blame *but the dog is responsible too.*


I'm sorry but I completely disagree. The dog attacking the child is obviously just wrong and tragic. But the poor dog is not responsible at all. The owner is 110% responsible. The dog felt it had to attack the child for whatever reason and it was valid in the dogs mind, regardless of breed.

I am not saying that makes it okay in any way, shape or form. But the man should have had his dog under control. I don't know if the dog had been trained to be aggressive to people or if the child provoked the attack maybe by accidently hurting the dog, but I am sure the man must have had some inkling his dog was HA or not good around kids.

Most of us on here know whether our dogs like kids or not. So we muzzle them, keep them on leads, away from children etc. That man has ruined one life and destroyed another as I expect the poor dog will be PTS.

That dog was the mans responsibility. The dog did what he saw fit (unless he has some sort of medical condition to make him act out aggressively, in which case that's completely different)

Yet again the 2 innocents pay the highest price and the stupid t**t owner will probably get a slap on the wrist and have another dog before you know it.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then. Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


I think that's just rude.
Michelle feels very passionately about BSL and, thus, gets irate when people spout the usual untrue cr*p.
I have children and a SBT and I share her opinions.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> Excuse me too, read my post!
> I said you do not walk an agressive dog in public unless muzzled!


Well no you said- "anyone walking an agressive dog should NOT be doing so in public anyway, at least without a muzzle."

That does not say Unless muzzled. The joy of the written word- open to so many interpretations. My bad if I read it wrong. :001_unsure:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then. Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


Nah mistaken ID, that would be Me

Seriously! some times things go around in circles that much that some of us to resort to sarcasm and norty words

Please lets keep this thread going! least till bedtime


----------



## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

tashax said:


> Your very cocky and there was no need for that


So someone tells me to take my head out of my arse and I am the one being cocky? No I think not, merely defending my right to comment on a subject without being abused.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies *Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then.* Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


Can you explain the bit in bold please ?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Well no you said- "anyone walking an agressive dog should NOT be doing so in public anyway, at least without a muzzle."
> 
> That does not say Unless muzzled. The joy of the written word- open to so many interpretations. My bad if I read it wrong. :001_unsure:


Slap my wrists! my grammer ain;t upto scratch!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> It is actually very brave to accept you are not the perfect owner for a dog and rehome to someone who is.


Thanks, no he was never going to be a pet dog, we were lied to about his breed, his parentage and age, there was only 2 people to blame here and its not the dog it was me for letting my heart rule my head and the idiots that actually bred him, it took months to track them down, but i did the police broke into the lock up and they ended in court and actually did time. proper miss marple i turned out to be but i as determined to find out where these pups had originally come from.

When i found out where i was told they might be i went in pretending to be lost and wanted directions ive never seen anything like it in my life, 12 dogs in total all on chains,lunging and snarling as many as i could make out was 4 possibly 5 pregnant bitches, 2 pups around 7 months ish and the rest adult males, it was digusting and thats where my dog had come from,maybe 1 of them was his mum i dont know but barney(my dog) suffered and nearly lost his life because of these idiots.

So not the breed HUMANS everytime.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

When we are standing outside a supermarket Dillon loves the attention he gets from most people and he loves children making a fuss of him although he is bigger than most of them. 

But walking him with children around I'm am more careful as they run around screaming and then pushchairs coming at him can make him nervous, if I can I move into a drive or a gap get him to sit and let them go past us, which is easier for me and them plus he gets a treat for been a good boy. I would never let him off lead when children are around.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I think that's just rude.
> Michelle feels very passionately about BSL and, thus, gets irate when people spout the usual untrue cr*p.
> I have children and a SBT and I share her opinions.


So telling me to get my head out of my arse is not rude? Who was the first to sling insults? I think you will find it was not me


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> Slap my wrists! my gammer ain;t upto scratch!


PMSL!  and whats gammer LOL LOL LOL


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> So someone tells me to take my head out of my arse and I am the one being cocky? No I think not, merely defending my right to comment on a subject without being abused.


So what are you saying?? Or at least trying to say?? That once she has children her dogs will attack them?? Or once she has children she wont love her dogs as much?? Please explain your reasoning behind that???


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> No owners in site for the staffie x and rotty thought too be dumped irresponsible owners, not undercontrol no statistics needed so please take your *arse out of your head*.
> 
> We all know bigger breeds including labs etc can cause more damage than a small dog its not rocket science.
> 
> ...


That made me laugh so hard I've got stitch


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then. Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


Rude and agressive maybe. I will stick up for any dog not just "staffies"

HOw was yours an oppion you were stating that we wouldnt be able too get statistics for that attack on that dog yet none where needed all was said i n the link.

Yes they are precious as everyones dogs are but i dont think my dogs are any better than anyone elses thats the difference.

My boys n girl will still be precious when or if i have kids thanks i wont be pushing them out.

Shows how much you know staffies dont have a jaw that locks!!!!

Do your research first.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> PMSL!  and whats gammer LOL LOL LOL


Who are you? my ex English teacher?


----------



## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

EllesBelles said:


> That made me laugh so hard I've got stitch


Lol i only saw this when reading through pmsl


----------



## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> So telling me to get my head out of my arse is not rude? Who was the first to sling insults? I think you will find it was not me


Yes it was rude but i think called for atleast in my opinion


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> Who are you? my ex English teacher?


ahahaha your edit wasn't quite quick enough!!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Have a strange feeling another one is about to!!!

Queen - Another One Bites The Dust - YouTube


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> So telling me to get my head out of my arse is not rude? Who was the first to sling insults? I think you will find it was not me


Well, I won't tell you to take your head out of your arse, but retaliating by slinging another insult is just childish. Something, I would really discourage in my 3-year old. Since I have reason to believe you are older than 3, you should really not be retaliating. :hand::hand:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> ahahaha your edit wasn't quite quick enough!!


My fingers can be as slow as my brain sometime!
But don't be fooled!!! I am all there


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> Can you explain the bit in bold please ?


Yes, people who become rude and aggressive so easily. Perhaps they need something else to occupy their time and then they might put things into perspective eg looking after a family as well as their pets and families.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

am i a bad mother


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Well, I won't tell you to take your head out of your arse, but retaliating by slinging another insult is just childish. Something, I would really discourage in my 3-year old. Since I have reason to believe you are older than 3, you should really not be retaliating. :hand::hand:


OOOOHH slap my wrists


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Yes, people who become rude and aggressive so easily. Perhaps they need something else to occupy their time and then they might put things into perspective eg looking after a family as well as their pets and families.


Well, you'll find I am very busy with 2 small children, a job and a dog. And I still have time to think that BSL and breed-bashing is just ignorant.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> am i a bad mother


I love EBT. Can anyoe remember Loe and her EBT ethel. the stories were so funny, ethel was such a character


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> am i a bad mother


Terrible! the poor dog should be rehomed with me seeing as you are too mean to buy it a bloody pillow!


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> am i a bad mother


How dare you!! Remove that vicious dog right away before it bites your child!!


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't know the full story however I really do hope the little girl makes a speedy recover.

imo a dog (irrespective of breed) should not be given the opportunity to lick a stranger never mind bite one, irrespective of the victim's age. If the dog was off lead then the blame lays firmly at the door of the dog owner. If the dog was leashed then the blame lays firmly with the parents.

I have encountered various scenarios, one child stood screaming, Duke was alert and reactive to the screams. I kept reassuring Duke everything was okay, take a chill pill, He was focused on the child's father tbh. I have had a scenario whereby three young children made a bee line for Duke. Whilst I knew Duke would be okay with the children, their parents didn't, nor were they aware that the children were running towards Duke.

As an owner I am responsible for my dog and therefore he is always leashed in public areas, especially where there are a lot of people - not because he is aggressive but if an incident did occur he would be the one who would ulmitately pay with his life.

I will be honest I don't take my dog to the Local Park anymore because of the number of irresponsible dog owners who let their dogs off lead without any consideration for anyone else in the Park. The times I have had to prevent a dog fight, to be told its my fault for owning a Bull Breed.

To have a law whereby all dogs should be leashed is wrong imo too, some owners can control their dogs off leash, most however can't and its those owners who are going to spoil it for everyone else.

I only wish irresponsible owners were pts - problem solved.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> I love EBT. Can anyoe remember Loe and her EBT ethel. the stories were so funny, ethel was such a character


i think it was just before i arrived here  i will have to do a search sometime as i have heard her mentioned a few times  all fun its seems


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> am i a bad mother


No because your dogs are beautiful and clearly not a risk to children 

My points still stand. ANY dog (regardless of breed) that is known to have issues with children should be walked responsibly and with great care and that is for the good of BOTH parties involved.

What kids/parents SHOULD do and what happens in reality are a world apart.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> am i a bad mother


Am I a bad mother?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> No because your dogs are beautiful and clearly not a risk to children
> 
> My points still stand. ANY dog (regardless of breed) that is known to have issues with children should be walked responsibly and with great care and that is for the good of BOTH parties involved.
> 
> What kids/parents SHOULD do and what happens in reality are a world apart.


Personally rainybows I think children should only be allowed out the home during school hours then should be leashed at all times

good job you know me!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

DT said:


> Terrible! the poor dog should be rehomed with me seeing as you are too mean to buy it a bloody pillow!





tashax said:


> How dare you!! Remove that vicious dog right away before it bites your child!!


:lol: :lol: :lol:



RAINYBOW said:


> No because your dogs are beautiful and clearly not a risk to children
> 
> My points still stand. ANY dog (regardless of breed) that is known to have issues with children should be walked responsibly and with great care and that is for the good of BOTH parties involved.
> 
> What kids/parents SHOULD do and what happens in reality are a world apart.


Thankyou xx


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I'll provide evidence of my terrible parenting skills as well, if you want.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Yes, people who become rude and aggressive so easily. Perhaps they need something else to occupy their time and then they might put things into perspective eg looking after a family as well as their pets and families.


Not easaily i am fed up with this kinda rubbish when this is meant too be a forum for dog lovers!!!!!!!! This is something i am constantly trying too get through too people that dogs are what we as owners make them got nothing too do with their breed. so when i see posts like yours yes it riles me up big time.

Haha so i should have a family too occupy time!!!!!! ok that makes sense.

First off im not ready for human kids.

Second i work full time

and thirdly i have enough too occupy my time.

How me having kids came into i dont know!!!!!!

If i do have kids then the dogs will be part of that not pushed out and the child brought up too respect all animals.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> Am I a bad mother?


No....but its not about German Sheperds is it....its about bull breeds


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Well, you'll find I am very busy with 2 small children, a job and a dog. And I still have time to think that BSL and breed-bashing is just ignorant.


Yes and my conversation was with someone else not you and that someone does not have kids so butt out nosey


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sskmick said:


> I don't know the full story however I really do hope the little girl makes a speedy recover.
> 
> imo a dog (irrespective of breed) should not be given the opportunity to lick a stranger never mind bite one, irrespective of the victim's age. If the dog was off lead then the blame lays firmly at the door of the dog owner. If the dog was leashed then the blame lays firmly with the parents.
> 
> ...


I refuse to let Oscar greet any dogs that would be classed as "dangerous".

And the reason ????

HE can be dog reactive onlead and i would expect ANY dog to potentially retaliate and i would hate to be the cause of any more negativaty towards so called dangerous breeds because MY spaniel is a bolshy bugger.

I spend my life apologising to the owners and and making sure they know it's not because of their breed of choice


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I'll provide evidence of my terrible parenting skills as well, if you want.


You and PJ should be sacked as mothers, terrible lot you are


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Yes and my conversation was with someone else not you and that someone does not have kids so butt out nosey


Now, now. I can defend Michelle, if I want to, and that's what I am doing.

Her opinion is not invalid, because she doesn't have children.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Lots of negative remarks, time to brighten the mood:

This thread has a lot of likes doesn't it?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I'll provide evidence of my terrible parenting skills as well, if you want.


OMG ...now that's precious !!!!!


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> Lots of negative remarks, time to brighten the mood:
> 
> This thread has a lot of likes doesn't it?


I was just thinking that, everytime I look it got a extra 70-100


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Yes, people who become rude and aggressive so easily. Perhaps they need something else to occupy their time and then they might put things into perspective eg looking after a family as well as their pets and families.


The way your post read was that anyone with children will have a different opinion. I have two EBT's and two young boys. I have always made sure that the poochies are not startled by them. My children have fed them, and even put their hands in their food and taken it away from them to make sure they were never aggressive towards children. I have even made my kids wake them up so they are never aggressive towards children. The kids have even gone inside their crates! Then in turn i have told my children how to be around other dogs and to treat them as if they could be bitten untill they can read a dog. I believe my kids have a healthy respect for dogs. I hope as they grow, they will treat all dogs with the respect they deserve. Same with my dogs, but as said earlier in this thread it is down to the owners. And by no means am i a perfect owner, and nor will i claim to be. But i certainly cant understand the breed bashing that is happening


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> I see you revert to your usual aggressive and rude manner when anyone offers an opinion on something that differs to yours. You certainly fire up easily when anyone dares to say anything which you disagree with about your precious staffies Just wait till you have a few kids to look after and see how precious your boys are then. Judging by your attitude to other people on this post you probably have a locking bite too


Staffs don't have locking bite....that's a myth


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> Lots of negative remarks, time to brighten the mood:
> 
> This thread has a lot of likes doesn't it?


It does..i've done quite well out of it today :lol: :lol:


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Another example


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Now, now. I can defend Michelle, if I want to, and that's what I am doing.
> 
> Her opinion is not invalid, because she doesn't have children.


Ha ha got to go now, but I don't think Michelle is in need of anyone to defend her


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> View attachment 82783
> 
> 
> View attachment 82784
> ...


lovely  love the first one


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

paddyjulie said:


> am i a bad mother


Definitely not. This is how a dog and children should be, and I like to think I too am a responsible bull breed owner.

















What breaks my heart is that little girl who will be no doubt physically and mentally scared for life, because some toe-rag hasn't a flicking clue.

While, responsible bull breed owners have to deal with the media and public hostility against bull breeds.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

*NEWSFLASH*​*A recent decline in the sales of pillows has seen the UK's last pillow manufaturer close its doors for the last time due to the lack of sales![/SIZE]

a spokesman for the company said - we do not know what has caused this decline!!

Shall we let em into a secret?????*


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

sskmick said:


> Definitely not. This is how a dog and children should be, and I like to think I too am a responsible bull breed owner.
> 
> View attachment 82780
> 
> ...


awwww.....that first one is just :001_wub::001_wub:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I'll provide evidence of my terrible parenting skills as well, if you want.


Those pics are actually too cute :001_wub:


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Well, all the pictures have certainly brightened my evening.
Haven't we all got lovely doglets?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Clare7435 said:


> Staffs don't have locking bite....that's a myth


Why do they need breaking sticks then to release their bite? Call it locking jaw or just a very strong hold it still creates a problem if it is wrapped around a 6 year old's ear


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

DT said:


> *NEWSFLASH*​*A recent decline in the sales of pillows has seen its last pillow manufaturer close its doors for the last time due to the lack of sales![/SIZE]
> 
> a spokesman for the company said - we do not know what has caused this decline!!
> 
> Shall we let em into a secret?????*




:lol: they both look very comfy  lovely x


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Why do they need breaking sticks then to release their bite? Call it locking jaw or just a very strong hold it still creates a problem if it is wrapped around a 6 year old's ear


Thought you was going:sosp:


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

If we're playing this game - I would like to join in!









(It's an old picture though)


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Now, now. I can defend Michelle, if I want to, and that's what I am doing.
> 
> Her opinion is not invalid, because she doesn't have children.


I do think haaving children makes you understand how unpredictable they can be and also how easy it is to take your eyes off them for a second and just how far they can get in that second 

I also think borrowing a couple of 3 or 4 year olds for a week might be quite enlightening  Watch them spiral if they are only taken out in a pushchair or on reins :ihih: Kids need a good run just as much as dogs do.

I mind kids for a living (as well as having my own) so have to be supremely vigilant. My kids are walked with dogs nearly every day and are taught doggy laws from very early on but i couldn't hand on heart guarantee that their brains wouldn't fall out their left ears in an instant and do something totally daft like stroke a passing dog without asking first.

Kids are as unpredictable as dogs but kids don't bite  well mostly


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Why do they need breaking sticks then to release their bite? Call it locking jaw or just a very strong hold it still creates a problem if it is wrapped around a 6 year old's ear


I posted some links earlier in the thread about this myth. There is also a very interesting video, if you get the chance. 
Try getting open the jaw of a GSD and you'll find it equally hard.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I posted some links earlier in the thread about this myth. There is also a very interesting video, if you get the chance.
> Try getting open the jaw of a GSD and you'll find it equally hard.


Won't find it any harder if you know where to stick your fingers (I don't mean the bum!!)


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

PaulRyan said:


> Thought you was going:sosp:


Sorry to disappoint you all but I can't resist a good scrap even if it is only words


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

Im a bad mum also


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Hehe, don't know how to get the pic up, so I'll just post the link,

http://jokideo.com/wp-content/uploa...9083465_129446698464_11224335_810296632_n.jpg


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I posted some links earlier in the thread about this myth. There is also a very interesting video, if you get the chance.
> Try getting open the jaw of a GSD and you'll find it equally hard.


I have to bargain with Tex my gsd to give him his worming tablets because I have no change of opening his gob lol....Fizz my staff x is a walk in the park compared to him....the hardest to open the mouth of?this little sod


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

SLB said:


> If we're playing this game - I would like to join in!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lovely x i so love looking at pictures of children and dogs 



BullyMolly said:


> Im a bad mum also


naughty step with me !!!


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> Why do they need breaking sticks then to release their bite? Call it locking jaw or just a very strong hold it still creates a problem if it is wrapped around a 6 year old's ear


Put your copy of the Daily Mail down and google it. If you still haven't figured it out by tomorrow I'll tell you.


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

> The dog owner said the girl and her younger brother had been unnerving his pet, a black and white bull terrier.
> He then stormed off, leaving a false name and address while the girls father was left to search the area for the ear in the hope surgeons could sew it back on.
> Part of it was found by walkers yesterday as the girl was recovering in hospital.


Latest update.

I think 'unnerving' needs to be defined - but her parents seemed to defend her on the news, saying she "just wanted to play".

Not that I'm saying she needed to be defended, by the way, just that they came across that way.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Why do they need breaking sticks then to release their bite? Call it locking jaw or just a very strong hold it still creates a problem if it is wrapped around a 6 year old's ear


So does a rope if they decide to wrap on of then round their necks and then play bungee out the bedroom window

children are as unpridtable as dogs and need supervision 24/7


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

All this breed debate aside, fault aside, if your dog bites a kids ear off, don't storm off, get on your hands and knees and help find the ear you f*****n low life


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

Definately. Giving a false name and address and storming off is disgusting behaviour, and he will have a hard job to convince anyone that he did his best to control his dog now, even if the dog was on a lead. Especially as he had already told the parents to control their children.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> All this breed debate aside, fault aside, if your dog bites a kids ear off, don't storm off, get on your hands and knees and help find the ear you f*****n low life


But please take the time to secure the dog in some way first otherwise it's probably gonna be more than the ear you're looking for!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> Why do they need breaking sticks then to release their bite? Call it locking jaw or just a very strong hold it still creates a problem if it is wrapped around a 6 year old's ear


As does any dog wrapped around a 6 yr olds ear....To each bull terrier attack there are possibly 20 other breed attacks...the difference is that for some reason these other attacks don't hit the papers...fair? not really. I've seen more bites from my sisters dog and she's a toy yorkie....


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

redginald said:


> All this breed debate aside, fault aside, if your dog bites a kids ear off, don't storm off, get on your hands and knees and help find the ear you f*****n low life


To be fair would you as the parents want the dog owner around helping? I wouldn't, I would be telling him to get away with his dog.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> To be fair would you as the parents want the dog owner around helping? I wouldn't, I would be telling him to get away with his dog.


True...if that where one of my kids the dogs owner would have been on his hands and knees looking for his nackers on the floor by the time I'd finished with him....


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> But please take the time to secure the dog in some way first otherwise it's probably gonna be more than the ear you're looking for!


Well yeah I'm not getting involved in the blame game or the breed debate, he walked off and lied, his dog didnt bite another dog, it didnt nip somebody, it bit a Childs ear off. one thing is clear, this person was a bottom feeder. The parents/owner could be at blame but that should be irrelevant when your stood with a kid in pain and lacking an ear, poor kid hope they recover fully.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ooooh so many comments so little time....

Firstly....I have a full time job, my hubby has a full time job, we own our home, I have a 7 year old step daughter and yep you guessed it I own a staffie. 
Me and OH were talking about this earlier as Lexi, my staff is always on lead around children out on walks, not because she would ever ever hurt them, but because she jumps up (try as I might I can not stop her although she gets down on command) and she loves to give kisses, now because she is a staff all hell would break loose if she did this to a kid so we avoid this happening.
We also commented that the only children that ever appear to have sense around dogs are the children brought up with dogs, and these are the kids I am quite happy to allow to greet me kids, the stupid parent with no sense pulling their screaming 4 year old away from my waggy tailed staff but allow them to run toward my rescue patterdale who is looking wary at best at the people I actively avoid, they have no idea about dog body language and can't see that Lexi is ready to greet with her waggy tail but Bos needs to come round a bit.
Oh and staffies and their amazing wonderous locking jaw....would someone like to tell my mums jack russell that because her grip is and always has been so much stronger than Lexis, Lexi has very little jaw strength even in comparrision to Bos, she obviously missed the killer locking jaw memo!!
Going back a hell of a lot of pages, growing up my grandad had a very aggressive rough collie.....he bit my grandad 4 time in his life twice needing stitches.....why??? He was badly bred, but ANY dog canbe agressive.
I really feel for this little girl and the owner of the dog....well he should have never left the scene but watching sky news earlier and an eye witness was saying all the owner could say when the incident happened was she shouldn't have done that she scared him, he was just scared....so it does bring rise the question what exactly had the girl done to scare the dog? I'm not saying how the dog reacted was right, but if the dog was scared and feeling threatened maybe its not the cold blooded out of the blue attack its been made out to be!!!!


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

SLB said:


> If we're playing this game - I would like to join in!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok not a bull breed but can I join in too? 

Scott with my daughters...


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

LisaZonda said:


> Ok not a bull breed but can I join in too?
> 
> Scott with my daughters...


oh flip..hes bloody huge ....but...can you send him to me please ...


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ooooh so many comments so little time....
> 
> Firstly....I have a full time job, my hubby has a full time job, we own our home, I have a 7 year old step daughter and yep you guessed it I own a staffie.
> Me and OH were talking about this earlier as Lexi, my staff is always on lead around children out on walks, not because she would ever ever hurt them, but because she jumps up (try as I might I can not stop her although she gets down on command) and she loves to give kisses, now because she is a staff all hell would break loose if she did this to a kid so we avoid this happening.
> ...


Very well said.

No stories ever have the full goings on and it makes you wounder.....


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


If people want to get involved in breed bashing or anything else, please show us some evidence first.

Animal behaviour, breed typical behaviours, motor patterns, epigenetics...before we can begin to comment on what makes dogs do this and make the assumption that these incidents are more common in bull terriers because they are bull terriers, we need to respect the fields of study and scientific knowledge behind such topics. Without it, it becomes a dribbling mess...suitable for the daily mail.

Also, ears are incredibly fragile. Sensationalist wording aside, the dog could have been hard-mouthing and took the girl's ear off!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

LisaZonda said:


> Ok not a bull breed but can I join in too?
> 
> Scott with my daughters...


It is good you have posted this to highlight the dangers of the Newfoundland, he could clearly fit 2 children in his tummy and you wouldn't even know :001_tongue:


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> oh flip..hes bloody huge ....but...can you send him to me please ...


 Scott was such a big, soft adorable bear...sadly I lost him a couple of years ago but the girls and I have such wonderful memories to treasure 

I'll get another one day...when I do I'll send him over to yours for a cuddle


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

I just spent the last 20 minutes reading comments on the daily mail web site (stupid idea, but curiosity got the best of me), genuinely made me feel sick, so much dog hate out there, people can be so aggressive..


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

PaulRyan said:


> I just spent the last 20 minutes reading comments on the daily mail web site (stupid idea, but curiosity got the best of me), genuinely made me feel sick, so much dog hate out there, people can be so aggressive..


I wouldn't wipe my backside with the Daily Mail, and have very little respect for people who consider it a reputable paper. So, they can say whatever they like on there. :w00t:


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> To be fair would you as the parents want the dog owner around helping? I wouldn't, I would be telling him to get away with his dog.


Fair one, I dont know to be honest, his actions appear sub human to me. If you were driving your car and a kid jumped in front of you and you injured them you wouldn't drive off, even though it was their fault!!, this is no different!


Clare7435 said:


> True...if that where one of my kids the dogs owner would have been on his hands and knees looking for his nackers on the floor by the time I'd finished with him....


I was thinking of something similar to say but didnt want to get the thread shut down, well worded


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

Was it ever discovered if the dog was on lead?


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

They said on the news that the dog was originally offlead but was put on lead when the children began being boisterous and the man told the parents to control the kids. So allegedly on the lead at the time of the attack.

Different places seem to think different things, though, so I don't know if it's true!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

oh.....well its a goodnight from me 

deed not breed...........what else can i say !!!!!!

at the moment its bull breeds that are being slated by the press...it could be yours next !!!!!! remember that


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

The owner is due in court later today.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> oh.....well its a goodnight from me
> 
> deed not breed...........what else can i say !!!!!!
> 
> at the moment its bull breeds that are being slated by the press...it could be yours next !!!!!! remember that


My prediction is they will start with laws prohibiting some breeds from being off lead in public they (will possible insist on a muzzle too) and local authorities will find this impossible to enforce (how do you apply it to a staf x x cocker or lab ??) so the authoritiess will put blanker onlead laws inn place.

There is less and less tolerance out there for dogs (thanks to the gutter media). I can already see the early rumblings in my local park and they have relatively little trouble from dogs there, generally it is just some grumpy walkers (generaly ones with kids ad no dogs themselves who come out on a weekend dressed in high heels and white jeans and look horrified if my dog shakes water from being in the lake ) and fishermen who leave bait boxes open, fish in a public park and then moan about the dogs bothering them .

On the flip side i have seen excitable dogs jumping around in the middle of groups of kids totally out of control and leaping up and the owner just sais "oh he is "friendly" and i have seen dogs being allowed to trash through a fishermans kit doing damage and wrecking his fishing. Neither of these sorts of things help the cause either. Dogs are just seen as a "nuisance" 

These stories just add more weight to the argument for dogs being onlead at all times even if the dog was onlead during the attack.

I have caught a kid poking Oscar with a stick before while the parent sat 10 yds away drinking coffee and i got a "look" for telling the kid off


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ooooh so many comments so little time....
> 
> Firstly....I have a full time job, my hubby has a full time job, we own our home, I have a 7 year old step daughter and yep you guessed it I own a staffie.
> Me and OH were talking about this earlier as Lexi, my staff is always on lead around children out on walks, not because she would ever ever hurt them, but because she jumps up (try as I might I can not stop her although she gets down on command) and she loves to give kisses, now because she is a staff all hell would break loose if she did this to a kid so we avoid this happening.
> ...


I am in no way against staffies mine play on a regular basis with some lovely ones it just happens they have fab owners, but when you say about parents that cant read a dogs body language that will pull their child away from a staffie but let it walk up to a little patterdale, well other than letting my child just walk up to any dog, i would have pulled mine away from a staffie when they were small in those days i couldnt read body language, people that dont own dogs dont go to body language lessons and whether i would be wrong for doing that, we go on what we know and unfortunately the bad press these dogs have had over the years a parent isnt going to trust their child to luck its a natural reaction for any parent to protect their child. I would actualy do it now if ime honest not because ime against staffes but because ime against these idiot staffie owners and if i dont know the owner then i wouldnt trust the dog.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I am in no way against staffies mine play on a regular basis with some lovely ones it just happens they have fab owners, but when you say about parents that cant read a dogs body language that will pull their child away from a staffie but let it walk up to a little patterdale, well other than letting my child just walk up to any dog, i would have pulled mine away from a staffie when they were small in those days i couldnt read body language, people that dont own dogs dont go to body language lessons and whether i would be wrong for doing that, we go on what we know and unfortunately the bad press these dogs have had over the years a parent isnt going to trust their child to luck its a natural reaction for any parent to protect their child. I would actualy do it now if ime honest not because ime against staffes but because ime against these idiot staffie owners and if i dont know the owner then i wouldnt trust the dog.


I think that is very ignorant.
There are at least 12,000 registered Staffie pups in the Uk every year and god many knows how many unregistered ones. Are you trying to say the vast majority of these dogs are owned by idiots? :huh:
To the contrary, I would have thought. 
And as for the "little" Patterdale. Bos is actually the same size as Lexi, so not really that little.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> this is just by where i live and it is awful.
> 
> it is happening far too often now, i do know people say it is the owner but it is usually one type of dog that does it.
> 
> i know a lot of people will passionately disagree but with some of these dogs that attack it is somewhere in them and sometimes lying dormant.


One type of dog that bites! What a load of tosh. I know of lots of different breeds of dogs that have bitten, its not just bull breeds.

As for these dogs traits lying dormant, Ive never heard such a ridiculous comment. I have a 12 year old x-staffie and he has never bitten anyone. Your more likely to be licked to death than bitten by him. Before him I had a female SBT. Again, she never bit anyone, never attacked another dog. She was a wonderful dog. I also own an AB who is excellent with other dogs and kids.

I have 7 nephews and one niece ranging from 6 months of age to 13 years. When they come to visit, my dogs are great with the kids. The kids get the dogs to sit and give them a treat each. They play with the dogs and the dogs love the attention they get off the kids.

With regards to the girls ear being bitten off. This is a tragic incident and I hope she will be okay and does not suffer long lasting physical and psychological damage.

With regards to the owner and the dog involved. It is totally the owners fault and *NOT* the dogs fault. If dog has been brought up correctly i.e socialised properly with kids and dogs, then this would not have happened. The same applies to kids. Bring kids up to be delinquents and thats what theyll be. Its is no different for dogs. Just like kids need discipline and boundaries put in place, so do dogs.

*REMEMBER DEED NOT BREED*


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

have found a way to say 'one type of dog bites'

the 'alive ones'

I have never heard of a cuddly toy dog, picture of dog or model of dog biting someone - though they may still prove a trip hazard


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

don't know if it's true but in the daily mirror today it says a couple walking their jack russell dogs found the ear yesterday afternoon as they walked in pole hill, joan young 44, said we noticed rolo was sniffing round something on the floor, at first we didn't think anything of it, then when we looked closer we saw it was the top part of someone's ear, also says police are deciding whether to apply to have the dog destroyed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just wanted to add: Dr. I. Lehr Brisbin, PhD - Professor of Ecology at the University of Georgia and a scientist for the US Department of Energy Savannah River Ecology Labratory in the field of animal behavior, states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of "locking mechanism" unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

Dogs do not have locking mechanisms in their jaws, it's an absolute myth, some have more powerful muscle structures to hold and grip, but they do not lock!


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

For what it's worth, my husband spent six days in hospital over the new year period from being attacked by a labrador. I won't go into the whole affair as it is rather upsetting and personal to me. I just wanted to point out that I know from sad and bitter experience a labrador can do a great deal of damage and we shouldn't forget that i.e. any breed of dog is capable. The hospital asked what breed the dog was and I was suprised to hear they'd had a few people in from wounds resulting from labs. I think this is probably more to do with the fact that they are the number one dog breed where I live. In addition a few years ago my then 7 year old niece was mauled by a springer spaniel and required plastic surgery on her face. She made a good recovery in the end as has my husband thankfully.

Neither my husbands or my niece's story hit the headlines because of course they were never reported in the first place and this is part of the problem to me, because reading about fluffy spaniels and andrex puppies does not make good news stories for the media. They would in fact rather demonise what they consider to be the tougher looking dogs and pray on peoples insecurities around these breeds, further heightening peoples fear etc.

Its a dangerous game because it means many of us forget that ANY breed of dog can attack and drop our guard around certain breeds of dogs that we deem to be 100% safe. Although thank goodness such dog attacks are rare events and for most of us we will never be on the receiving end.

Not long after we moved house many years ago to a very rural area, we received a letter from a near neighbour which stated I owned breeds of dogs that could kill a child. It was a horrifying and upsetting letter to receive. It was not their fault, they had been fed tosh from the media and had children, never owned dogs themselves, and were understandably wary. I am happy to say they now think very differently of the EBT (RIP) and staffie breeds we owned and their children love/d them dearly.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I think that is very ignorant.
> There are at least 12,000 registered Staffie pups in the Uk every year and god many knows how many unregistered ones. Are you trying to say the vast majority of these dogs are owned by idiots? :huh:
> To the contrary, I would have thought.
> And as for the "little" Patterdale. Bos is actually the same size as Lexi, so not really that little.


Any dog in the charge of an idiot can be a danger , but I will say idiots do tend to have an attraction towards the poor SBT type breeds.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for your input, and thank you, I forgot to put that the info posted in my bit above wasn't from me, but from a friend with much more experience with bull breeds than me


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for your input, and thank you, I forgot to put that the info posted in my bit above wasn't from me, but from a friend with much more experience with bull breeds than me


Dunno if you have seen it SL but their is a link above testing the force behind a dogs bite
Of the three tested, Rotti, EBT and GSD the Rotti returned the most powerful bite, almost twice that of the EBT


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DT said:


> Dunno if you have seen it SL but their is a link above testing the force behind a dogs bite
> Of the three tested, Rotti, EBT and GSD the Rotti returned the most powerful bite, almost twice that of the EBT


Yes I have, I'm not keen on the video, but it's a while since I've seen it.

I really wish this misconception about breeds would get knocked on the head. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening, it's the same as puppy farming, as long as there are folk out there ignorant enough, all the bad things about dog ownership etc will be perpetuated


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

That videos not very accurate (if its the one im thinking of) as they test just one of each breed. Maybe one individual showed greater bite inhibition compared to the others.

In order to get a more accurate result, they'd have to test a larger quantity of each breed to find the average. Otherwise, its just a competition between 3 individual dogs, in which one is the "winner".

In all honesty, i dont think it proves anything.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> That videos not very accurate (if its the one im thinking of) as they test just one of each breed. Maybe one individual showed greater bite inhibition compared to the others.
> 
> In order to get a more accurate result, they'd have to test a larger quantity of each breed to find the average. Otherwise, its just a competition between 3 individual dogs, in which one is the "winner".
> 
> In all honesty, i dont think it proves anything.


Fair comment! but perhaps they did test more in the initial tests but just showed the three, just as a coparison


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> That videos not very accurate (if its the one im thinking of) as they test just one of each breed. Maybe one individual showed greater bite inhibition compared to the others.
> 
> In order to get a more accurate result, they'd have to test a larger quantity of each breed to find the average. Otherwise, its just a competition between 3 individual dogs, in which one is the "winner".
> 
> In all honesty, i dont think it proves anything.


The video demonstrates what has been scientifically proven, that bite force increases with head size.

Cranial dimensions and forces of biting in the domestic dog - Ellis - 2009 - Journal of Anatomy - Wiley Online Library

There are other factors, but the maximum acheivable power of a dog's bite will be determined by the size of it's head.

There's a another video which combines more footage to the same effect:

Which dog has the highest bite force in the world? It comes down to the larger domestic dogs. - YouTube


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> If people want to get involved in breed bashing or anything else, please show us some evidence first.
> 
> Animal behaviour, breed typical behaviours, motor patterns, epigenetics...before we can begin to comment on what makes dogs do this and make the assumption that these incidents are more common in bull terriers because they are bull terriers, we need to respect the fields of study and scientific knowledge behind such topics. Without it, it becomes a dribbling mess...suitable for the daily mail.
> 
> Also, ears are incredibly fragile. Sensationalist wording aside, the dog could have been hard-mouthing and took the girl's ear off!


Are we talking about english bull terriers or staffies, as their jaws are completely different. I cant imagine either dog are naturally human aggressive but if they do turn on a person they have been bred to have a fairly powerful bite with the ability to hang on for dear life - literally, or they would be killed by the bull.

I give no credence to scientific studies. I was googling something today and came up with two scientific studies that actually totally contradicted each other. You can prove anything if you try hard enough.

I understand the little girl had neck and shoulder injuries as well so it was not a passing bite that was unlucky enough to take an ear off - which would be easy enough for any size of jaw to do by mistake.

I am not trying to follow it in the papers or news a lot but it does seem quite likely that the child was misbehaving around the dog. The problem is though that the dog reacted as it did. And am I right that it was on the lead at the time so the reaction was even worse, to inflict that damage while on the lead.
I imagine it will have to be put to sleep, whether it was the dogs fault or not how could the owner ever take it out again knowing it could react like that, and anyway he would not be very popular if he did.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Are we talking about english bull terriers or staffies, as their jaws are completely different. I cant imagine either dog are naturally human aggressive but if they do turn on a person they have been bred to have a fairly powerful bite with the ability to hang on for dear life - literally, or they would be killed by the bull.
> 
> I give no credence to scientific studies. I was googling something today and came up with two scientific studies that actually totally contradicted each other. You can prove anything if you try hard enough.
> 
> ...


I don't believe they are competely different, surely all dogs jaws work the same, the difference , and where the power comes from being in the width of the jaw and the shortness of muzzle - looking at it from a non scientific view it is the same with anything - a stick for example is more likely to snap at its narrowist point


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i really do agree that all dogs can bite.

the difference is what that dog does when they do bite.

to say all dogs have teeth so all dogs can harm is only true in a way as the difference in strength of the jaws is what really matters and the fact that some dogs wont let go either. 

all animals have teeth from a hamster to a lion and i know which one i would rather receive a bite from.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

I would love to know exactly what breed the dog is. At present its speculation that it was a Stafford but many people wouldn't know a real Stafford if it walked passed them in the street.

Problem is there are many unregistered dogs that are passed off as Staffords but clearly are not. 

Many of these dogs that attack are cross's yet the Stafford takes the fall for their mistakes 

As already stipulated in this thread, any dog can bite. I myself nearly lost my eye to a GSD when i was a child for walking passed it whilst it was eating - it never made me hate the breed or fear them instead they were always our chosen family pet for many many years after the event 

The way i see it is just because there are dogs that do unfortunate things it doesn't mean that the entire breed should be condemned as they are all individuals and should be treated as such.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> to say all dogs have teeth so all dogs can harm is only true in a way as the difference in strength of the jaws is what really matters and the fact that some dogs wont let go either.


There are some very strong dogs out there of many breeds. I understand what you and others are saying, I think, in that there probably is a link between the size of head and jaws and strength of bite a dog *could* deliver.

What I don't accept is sterotyping dogs, nor do I believe you can predict, ever, what a certain dog breed may or may not do when provoked, or otherwise, to attack. In the case of my husband, the labrador did not want to let go and getting him to do so was incredibly hard. He was a very fit and young dog who had a lot of power behind him. It was a very upsetting event for many reasons. The result was nearly a week in hospital and two operations by plastic surgeons. Would you have predicted that sort of behaviour from a labrador, not the attack so much but that the dog was capable of a sustained attack and significant damage? No I don't think so. What would you have me do now, campaign for all labs to be muzzled ???

I adore labradors as it happens, as I do all dog breeds, and very much understand that you take such sad events case by case and not dog breed by dog breed.


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

Maistaff said:


> I would love to know exactly what breed the dog is. At present its speculation that it was a Stafford but many people wouldn't know a real Stafford if it walked passed them in the street.





> The animal - a black and white bull terrier - has also been seized.


Although there are no pictures, and reports of what happened are very varied.

Maybe we'll know more after he goes to court?

The little girl is supposed to be okay, anyway. Still in hospital, but in good spirits.


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

EllesBelles said:


> Although there are no pictures, and reports of what happened are very varied.
> 
> Maybe we'll know more after he goes to court?
> 
> The little girl is supposed to be okay, anyway. Still in hospital, but in good spirits.


"bull terrier" is quite a vauge description too vauge IMO for the media or anyone to narrow it down to a specific breed.

I hope we do find out more once it goes to court. It would also be nice to know if the dog turns out to be a Stafford was it a "true" stafford or a cross which had Stafford in it.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

Maistaff said:


> "*bull terrier" is quite a vauge description too vauge IMO for the media or anyone to narrow it down to a specific breed.*
> 
> I hope we do find out more once it goes to court. It would also be nice to know if the dog turns out to be a Stafford was it a "true" stafford or a cross which had Stafford in it.


I agree totally. It is too vague.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

The breed Bull Terrier is what i have..she is a Bull Terrier nothing else :nonod:....When i see the term Bull Terrier used i automatically think its what i have ..not a Staffordshire Bull terrier or anything else just a Bull terrier ..as that is what she is 

Mavis is registered as a Bull Terrier


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

The poor girl.

As soon as I heard this on the news I thought, oh great, here we go. Another reason to bash the bull breeds. And the press/papers havent disappointed! 

Regardless of what happened, the owner needs to be ashamed. Walking away from a poor child like that is a disgrace. However, at least he has handed himself in. 





DT said:


> And for the the information of some small dogs CAN do damage too, my mothers toy poodle (and yep! I know it were a full toy poodle) attacked my elderly mother whislt she sleep and caused a hell of a mess, my mother passing out!!


 
I only have one dog bite scarand that was from a Pug. Right horrible little dog it was as well. Thats now muzzled when I see it on walks but it still has a do at Roo! He growls at it and just walks off. (Im proud of him for not going for it. It really hurt him when he was younger!)

Harvey was bitten by a Yorkie and ended up with stitches in his ear, poor mite. And he never once snapped back. Just because a smaller dog can do less damage doesnt excuse it. I couldnt believe how strong the one that got hold of Harvey was. It took me a lot of effort getting its mouth open. Having said that, Roos mouth isnt one for prying open when it comes to worming.

I asked Newfies mum the other month how much damage her breed would do if biting, she said significantly more than a staff. But because the breed looks cuddly, they are not stigmatised! Would your heart race if meeting one of them?

Ive had dog on dog attacks now from a pug, a yorkie and a lab (that Roo saw off when it went for Harvey). NEVER encountered another vicious bull breed yet. Had a dodgy DDB growl at my two, and that did **** me up but his owner quickly called him back. And that was AFTER the growl. Didnt even cross my mind before it. Im happy enough not to stigmatise any breed.

The looks I get when I put Harvey back on his lead when someone is walking their dog the other way towards us and it clearly doesnt want to play/is on a lead. I hastily explain Ive done it because I dont want him jumping on their dog and squashing him, but they still give Harvey such a dirty look and bustle off. And my heart breaks for the poor boy, as all he wants is to say hello and get a pat.

And you know what the daft thing is. None of mine would bite unless seriously pushed to do so, but if one was going to go first, it would be my terrier, not my staffie.
 


terencesmum said:


> BUT: It really bugs me that there are people on this forum who believe that there is something in Bully-types that makes them nasty somehow. You might as well just sign off on the whole BSL BS. When I hear "I love all dogs really, BUT..." , it really makes my blood boil.





Amen, its the kind of Im not racistbut statement isnt it?! You know a load of prejudice ******** is going to tumble out.

Your Terence sounds like a sweety. Can he come and play with my killer staff??!!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I understand the little girl had neck and shoulder injuries as well so it was not a passing bite that was unlucky enough to take an ear off - which would be easy enough for any size of jaw to do by mistake.


Could those be from paws? If she got bit in the ear, paws would just be at the right level to do damage around the neck and shoulder area?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> i really do agree that all dogs can bite.
> 
> the difference is what that dog does when they do bite.
> 
> ...


So whats your solution, cull the ones that are capable of more damage, just cos they "might" attack.  Cull the owners first I say.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

See now Im confused- some seem to be convinced of this Staff locking jaw nonsense- they do not have a mechanism that enables their jaw to lock- this is just fact.

They do have strong jaws- but like the bite force video indicates no more so for their size than a Lab, why is this so hard to understand? Are you confusing bite force with tenacity (so unwillingness to let go?).....?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> So whats your solution, cull the ones that are capable of more damage, just cos they "might" attack.  Cull the owners first I say.


My nanna (RIP) was petrified of rough collies, she got bitten by a farmers RC on the face as a child. An attack which she accepts was her fault as they were stealing apples off a tree, but still. Goes to show, they can, AND WILL attack!

When she was older and lived with my granddad, she owned a staff. His name was Ben, well he was my granddads dog really, but he got her over her fear of all dogs, but she never shook off that fear of Rough Collies.



Lexiedhb said:


> See now Im confused- some seem to be convinced of this Staff locking jaw nonsense- they do not have a mechanism that enables their jaw to lock- this is just fact.
> 
> They do have strong jaws- but like the bite force video indicates no more so for their size than a Lab, why is this so hard to understand? Are you confusing bite force with tenacity (so unwillingness to let go?).....?


I think so...and then the tenacity becomes "lock jaw" which is total crap.

You want to see how tenacious Roo is. I can pick up his rope tug with him attached on one end and carry him round the house and he will STILL be hanging on.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I have just got to say peeps dont come to my house or you will get mauled to death by this


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I have been through the big scary archives of my laptop and have found pics of what the lab did to my nans elderly neighbours dog.
Last pic is him with frey, just wanted to show everyone that it was an unprovoked attack and he is a very placid dog, even frey likes him which is a one in a million thing


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

i think our hamsters have injured us more than our dogs , yes all animals have teeth and you have to be careful regardless of their size or generally cute nature

this thread has been really interesting


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

ooo, its on the itv news on +1 now


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

seeing as they have not officially identified the breed of dog only that it is black and white i reckon its a collie!


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

they didnt say much, just that he's back to be sentenced later on. the girl was bit on the black, then neck and ear and the mother couldn't get it off, only when the girl's father kicked and hit the dog did it get off and that's when the owner turned up so he was no where near his dog 

(even when mine are in the park and off the lead they're never for from me for their safety as well as anyone elses)

the dog will be out down and the owner will mostly likely get between 6 months and 2 years but it wasn't specified if it was be a custodial sentence and there was nothing said about whether this man would have any sort of ban from owning a dog in the future

there was no mention on the breed of the dog so i'm guessing there now won't be so best not to just assume


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> The breed Bull Terrier is what i have..she is a Bull Terrier nothing else :nonod:....When i see the term Bull Terrier used i automatically think its what i have ..not a Staffordshire Bull terrier or anything else just a Bull terrier ..as that is what she is
> 
> Mavis is registered as a Bull Terrier


Me to however you know what the media are like !

Mavis is stunning BTW


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Have not read all of this as to be honest was a bit sickened. A little girl has been badly hurt, probably scarred for life and most just seem concerned about jumping to the defence of their breeds and one or two even seem to suggest she may have done something to provoke it. :nonod: Its this sort of attitude that does give dog owners a bad name.

Any news I have heard they have not made any mention of breed at all - don't read trashy papers like the Sun if you don't like the trash they come out with. To me what breed it was is totally irrelevant - I would imagine the little girl and parents don't want any dog within a mile of them after this.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Have not read all of this as to be honest was a bit sickened. A little girl has been badly hurt, probably scarred for life and most just seem concerned about jumping to the defence of their breeds and one or two even seem to suggest she may have done something to provoke it. :nonod: Its this sort of attitude that does give dog owners a bad name.
> 
> Any news I have heard they have not made any mention of breed at all - don't read trashy papers like the Sun if you don't like the trash they come out with. To me what breed it was is totally irrelevant - I would imagine the little girl and parents don't want any dog within a mile of them after this.


I think what you find people are actually sick of is the description that is automatically supplied by the press - in this instance a bull terrier 'type' Until the exact breed in know perhaps the words girl attacked by dog would have sufficed!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

there is a goaty smell in the air..something is hiding under the bridge!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

In case any of you are wondering posts quoting another insulting remark have all been deleted


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Have not read all of this as to be honest was a bit sickened. A little girl has been badly hurt, probably scarred for life and most just seem concerned about jumping to the defence of their breeds and one or two even seem to suggest she may have done something to provoke it. :nonod: Its this sort of attitude that does give dog owners a bad name.
> 
> Any news I have heard they have not made any mention of breed at all - don't read trashy papers like the Sun if you don't like the trash they come out with. To me what breed it was is totally irrelevant - I would imagine the little girl and parents don't want any dog within a mile of them after this.


I'm sick of the constant blame on any breed for attacks. Dogs don't attack just because they find it fun. This dog, if it did actually attack, has been let down by the owner big time. At the same time, the young girl (by all accounts) was aggravating the dog- she has also been let down by her parents.

People need to become educated about dog behaviour and how it develops. If they did they would not be so quick to demonise dogs, as dog behaviour is not driven purely by genetic predispositions. Environmental input shapes behaviour massively, within the developmental constraints of genetic predisposition.

I am sorry for the girl and sorry for the dog.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> In case any of you are wondering posts quoting another insulting remark have all been deleted


For once it WEREN'T me:thumbup::thumbup:[


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## JonoBeagle (Nov 1, 2011)

The problem is there is a lot of misinformation and sensationalist mumbo-jumbo that gets paraded in the media to sell their produce. That is the problem of living in a society where we are able to obtain information but we have to look for it; it is easier to read or watch what is put in front of you, rather than doing any proper research but this sort of thing can happen in any instance. 

For example; in the park some kids were playing with a ball... Boris loves balls and will pick them up in the hope that the owner will chase him of come and say hello. The kids got upset and were about to chase Boris. I immediately said "Don't chase him, he will think you are playing and run around!". Luckily the parents had the good grace to say to the kids, let the dog's owner get it for you and a simply recall led to them getting their ball back! 

Annoyingly, what does that family think? That Beagles are crazy, love to play but are gentle... No, Boris is calm because he gets enough stimulation and doesn't need to charge around, but that is true of any dog including toy breeds. 

Let us flip this around! The kids don't listen to me or their parents! They chase Boris... He runs around like a lunatic, the kids eventually get to him and try and rip the ball out of his mouth. He growls, clamps harder on the ball, all because he is enjoying the game that the kids created by not listening to the adults. They get the ball and he goes to grab it again, not hard but the teeth show and touch some skin, all the time with his play growl... Now what do the family think; the dog is uncontrollable, the dog is aggressive and badly behaved, should be muzzled and on lead. Again, No... It is normal dog behaviour! Any dog will do that... In both cases, that family are now misinformed by what is in front of them. 

OK, so a bit of thread drift, but it is one way of explaining why bull breeds get a bad rap when something happens, it doesn't help if the owner is a moron who shouldn't have a dog when these things happen; of course one can only speculate because the media will paint this awful story how they want and rarely with the whole truth. The only truth we know, is:

1) girl is attacked by dog, ear is bitten off.
2) man walks off with dog and later turns himself in. 

OK, so some places are saying it is a bull breed, but that isn't really relevant at all. A dog has clearly been aggressive and the owner was unable to control it. Why the dog was aggressive could be for a number of reasons... It may have been a rescue with some sort of trauma; a child is smaller and the fear is easier to release. It may be the owner was actually a moron and didn't train the dog to either not to bite or to have "bite inhibition" and so play has led to injuries. At the end of the day, the law states that a dog has to be under-control in public spaces. So regardless, whether the dog was provoked or not, and everything is simply speculation, it is the owner who is at fault for not understanding is dog or controlling it. 

Again, misinformation as I have exampled above leads to stigma against a breed when there should be none...


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> For once it WEREN'T me:thumbup::thumbup:[


You look bloody daft in that halo DT


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Having had dogs all my life I believe the owner is to blame for any attacks as any responible owner should know what their dog is like and what it does and doesn't like ect. Yes some dogs are more aggressive than others even when treated same but the owner should keep any dog on lead and maybe muzzled when in public if there is any chance the dog may attack anyone or another dog.

I got a girl corgi cross jack russel a few years back from a rescue centre she was about 7 and could tell she had been spoilt and allowed on beds and settees with her previous owner so expected us to let her and when we didn't she would growl and snap at us as we got her down. But I now have a spoilt boarder terrier cross jack russel and we do let him on beds and settees (we did not have the girl dog at all since we got this dog) and he is honestly the best temperment dog I've known. you can get him off beds or settee and he shows no aggression at all even with food he lets you chase him with it as a game. He has habbit of chewing things he shouldn't and twice I've got him and took things from his mouth thinking it was something he shouldn't have and its been food, he didn't growl or anything like most dogs would. Once I saw it was food I did let him have it.

I don't believe there is any certain breed that is aggressive though some are more likely to be aggressive but its down to the individual dog. I've met lovely friendly Rotweiler and Staffys both are known as aggressive, Ok I am more wary of certain breeds when out with my dog but main reason being because Staffys and bigger dogs are stronger and would do more damage if they did turn on my dog.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I wouldn't wipe my backside with the Daily Mail, and have very little respect for people who consider it a reputable paper. So, they can say whatever they like on there. :w00t:


Its better than that izal


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Have not read all of this as to be honest was a bit sickened. A little girl has been badly hurt, probably scarred for life and most just seem concerned about jumping to the defence of their breeds and one or two even seem to suggest she may have done something to provoke it. :nonod: Its this sort of attitude that does give dog owners a bad name.
> 
> Any news I have heard they have not made any mention of breed at all - don't read trashy papers like the Sun if you don't like the trash they come out with. To me what breed it was is totally irrelevant - I would imagine the little girl and parents don't want any dog within a mile of them after this.


Well if some people on this thread didnt start calling bull breeds, then people wouldnt feel the need to defend their dogs on this thread!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I think that is very ignorant.
> There are at least 12,000 registered Staffie pups in the Uk every year and god many knows how many unregistered ones. Are you trying to say the vast majority of these dogs are owned by idiots? :huh:
> To the contrary, I would have thought.
> And as for the "little" Patterdale. Bos is actually the same size as Lexi, so not really that little.


The number doesnt have to be vast, it doesnt take many of these wannabe hard men parading their staffie,encouraging the bahaviour that sadly many people think is the behaviour of "all" staffies to stand out as the majority.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Of course we all believe our breeds are the best dosnt make them any better than any other breed thou just means they are the best breed for that person.
> 
> I would never say that a staffy wouldnt attack of course we all now different but all breeds have the potential too attack whatever breed you may think rough collies wont but i think we all know raised incorrectly they can. They are dogs after all can't get away from that.


I agree they are dogs at the end of the day and you should never judge a dogs temprament by it's breed!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I wouldn't wipe my backside with the Daily Mail, and have very little respect for people who consider it a reputable paper. So, they can say whatever they like on there. :w00t:


Well thanks for that!
now show me a paper that ALWAYS gets ALL the facts right!


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Staffies and pits were bred to have the correct meatsuit for fighting, this doesn't necessarily mean they will have the temprament to fight or want to fight.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

As Cesar Milan says : Animal first then dog then breed


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Well,well,well i hope there arnt any newbies coming on here for advice for first time dog ownership and "which dog," i really wouldnt know what to reccommend labs,jrt,yorkies, putting people i hospital, biting faces the lists endless, my god think ime going to rehome my 2 before they savage me in my sleep.  but then no ones slated springers so i might just be safe.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> You look bloody daft in that halo DT


Got a gut feeling it COULD be in grave danger of slipping in the not too distant future


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Well,well,well i hope there arnt any newbies coming on here for advice for first time dog ownership and "which dog," i really wouldnt know what to reccommend labs,jrt,yorkies, putting people i hospital, biting faces the lists endless, my god think ime going to rehome my 2 before they savage me in my sleep.  but then no ones slated springers so i might just be safe.


I would deffo recommend rotties


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rotties4eva said:


> I agree they are dogs at the end of the day and you should never judge a dogs temprament by it's breed!!!


or looks........................


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

He pleaded guilty, which is the best he could have done in the circumstances, I suppose.



> The girl's father told BBC London: "She'd always been scared of dogs - it's like her biggest nightmare.
> 
> "I can't imagine her ever going to the park again.
> 
> ...


No news on what will happen to the dog.

I do feel for her. I think that goes without saying, though. Whatever happened, it is such a shame that it ended like it did, and I hope she is offered therapy and help to stop her phobia from taking over her life, and that the reconstructive surgery is a success.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> Got a gut feeling it COULD be in grave danger of slipping in the not too distant future


thats better


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rotties4eva said:


> I would deffo recommend rotties


:001_tt1: my brother has 2


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> thats better


And when it does I will proberly trip myself up
It's hard work being this nice you know


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

As a dog lover I love all dogs no matter what breed but the press aren't helping the alarming number of staffies in rescue at min by constantly blaming them. It wasn't even a staffie that attacked her was it


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> :001_tt1: my brother has 2


I have three rotties one staffy and one CKCS:001_tt1:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

EllesBelles said:


> No news on what will happen to the dog.


I would have thought death was a forgone conclusion tbh. Im surprised it hasnt been destroyed already.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> As a dog lover I love all dogs no matter what breed but the press aren't helping the alarming number of staffies in rescue at min by constantly blaming them. It wasn't even a staffie that attacked her was it


Don;t think it has been confirmed yet nor that anyone knows for sure!
Yesterday it was a bull terrier type
Today it is a SBT
So really don't know


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> See now Im confused- some seem to be convinced of this Staff locking jaw nonsense- they do not have a mechanism that enables their jaw to lock- this is just fact.
> 
> They do have strong jaws- but like the bite force video indicates no more so for their size than a Lab, why is this so hard to understand? Are you confusing bite force with tenacity (so unwillingness to let go?).....?


I've spoke about the Jaw lock myth with 2 people yesterday and both were in complete denial, 1 said I was misinformed and drew me a diagram and explained in detail what happens to the jaw.  The other person preceeded to speak to me like I was 4 and tried telling me they seen it happen.. god knows how you can see it. some people refuse to change their mind about certain things especially if many others join them in ignorance.


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> I would have thought death was a forgone conclusion tbh. Im surprised it hasnt been destroyed already.


Yes, I suppose that was rather naive.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

PaulRyan said:


> I've spoke about the Jaw lock myth with 2 people yesterday and both were in complete denial, 1 said I was misinformed and drew me a diagram and explained in detail what happens to the jaw.  The other person preceeded to speak to me like I was 4 and tried telling me they seen it happen.. god knows how you can see it. some people refuse to change their mind about certain things especially if many others join them in ignorance.


I'd love to the see the picture.


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> I'd love to the see the picture.


God knows where the pictures are now, they was on a tissue napkin. gist was the back of the jaw apparently breaks and becomes level with the front open mouth (kind of like when a snake is about to eat something large) then clamps, although she also said they cannot choose when to do this, I feel sorry for her staffie.. If I find the napkin I'll be sure to wipe my back side with it


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Education is vital. Owners on how to keep dogs and also children on the dangers of strangers dogs...and parents to keep their kids close by and safe.

Not saying the girl did anything but if in schools children were taught the dangers of approaching strange dogs just how they are taught about crossing the road then maybe, just maybe we will have fewer injuries.

Breed is irrelevant.

To those that believe some breeds have in them, lying dormant somewhere..excuse me guys but you need to wake up as ALL dogs can bite.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

PaulRyan said:


> God knows where the pictures are now, they was on a tissue napkin. gist was the back of the jaw apparently breaks and becomes level with the front open mouth (kind of like when a snake is about to eat something large) then clamps, although she also said they cannot choose when to do this, I feel sorry for her staffie.. If I find the napkin I'll be sure to wipe my back side with it


Oh, how daft. If they actually were able to do this they would have to be classified as a different species. Probably also worth telling her that snakes don't do that or dislocate their jaws either. The lower jaw isn't joined at the front which enables it to open it's mouth so wide. Each side of their jaws can act independently as it creeps along its prey. I have a smallish snake and it is bizarre to watch them eat.


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Oh, how daft. If they actually were able to do this they would have to be classified as a different species. Probably also worth telling her that snakes don't do that or dislocate their jaws either. The lower jaw isn't joined at the front which enables it to open it's mouth so wide. Each side of their jaws can act independently as it creeps along its prey. I have a smallish snake and it is bizarre to watch them eat.


I've decided to stay clear of dog talk with her in future, I fear nothing more than another one of her informative lectures. :001_tongue:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

PaulRyan said:


> I've spoke about the Jaw lock myth with 2 people yesterday and both were in complete denial, 1 said I was misinformed and drew me a diagram and explained in detail what happens to the jaw.  The other person preceeded to speak to me like I was 4 and tried telling me they seen it happen.. god knows how you can see it. some people refuse to change their mind about certain things especially if many others join them in ignorance.


WOW- you met someone with X-ray vision who can see through a dogs skin, and muscle to see the little locking mechanism click into place- AMAZING!! :001_tongue::001_tongue::001_tongue:

and they also reckon that a dog with a broken jaw would be able to lock it somehow? Impressive- where do these people read these things!!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> WOW- you met someone with X-ray vision who can see through a dogs skin, and muscle to see the little locking mechanism click into place- AMAZING!! :001_tongue::001_tongue::001_tongue:
> 
> and they also reckon that a dog with a broken jaw would be able to lock it somehow? Impressive- where do these people read these things!!


The Daily Mail.  :w00t:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> The Daily Mail.  :w00t:


..... and there you have it! :huh:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> WOW- you met someone with X-ray vision who can see through a dogs skin, and muscle to see the little locking mechanism click into place- AMAZING!! :001_tongue::001_tongue::001_tongue:
> 
> and they also reckon that a dog with a broken jaw would be able to lock it somehow? Impressive- where do these people read these things!!


oddly enough I once worked with someone who (please dont be sick) boiled dogs heads of different sorts of skull shapes and studied the differences. I dont mean he did this all the time  It was just a study he was doing.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blitz said:


> oddly enough I once worked with someone who (please dont be sick) boiled dogs heads of different sorts of skull shapes and studied the differences. I dont mean he did this all the time  It was just a study he was doing.


V O M :huh:

Bet he did not find a tiny locking mechanism in the heads of Bull breeds though!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Blitz said:


> oddly enough I once worked with someone who (please dont be sick) boiled dogs heads of different sorts of skull shapes and studied the differences. I dont mean he did this all the time  It was just a study he was doing.


Although some may find it sick, this is a very interesting and essential task in learning about dog behaviour and evolution!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> V O M :huh:
> 
> Bet he did not find a tiny locking mechanism in the heads of Bull breeds though!


Tiny little padlock type devices that they can lock and unlock on cue.

Just for the record....i just tried to 'dislocate' Lexis jaw. I got a very bemused looking staffie and lots of kisses. Jaw didn't do anything special though!!!

Someone said a few pages back that it is becoming harder to differentiate what a true staffie is. On three seperate occasions I have been asked if Lexi is a mini-staff (!!!!!) as she is 15.5" to the shoulder. She is 14.5kg, she tapers in at the waist has good muscle mass but is athletic. No-one believed me that she is what a staffie SHOULD look like.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> Education is vital. Owners on how to keep dogs and also children on the dangers of strangers dogs...and parents to keep their kids close by and safe.
> 
> Not saying the girl did anything but if in schools children were taught the dangers of approaching strange dogs just how they are taught about crossing the road then maybe, just maybe we will have fewer injuries.
> 
> ...


Exactly, but I think there are more well behaved dogs than children.

I am feed up with children running and screaming at Dillon when I'm walking him or standing outside a shop.

Screaming at a dog is not a very good idea, it can spook them and they could react and then it will the dogs fault not the screaming child. :mad5:

Dillon is child friendly and children do make a fuss of him which he loves, but if they come running up to him with a parent yards behind, I will never let them touch him, and if they go stroke him without asking, again I will not let them touch him.

Yes all dogs can bite, but not all breeds were breed to fight and kill.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> Exactly, but I think there are more well behaved dogs than children.
> 
> I am feed up with children running and screaming at Dillon when I'm walking him or standing outside a shop.
> 
> ...


There are very few dogs that are not bred to kill or have been bred to perform a function that is derived from their prey drive.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Exactly, but I think there are more well behaved dogs than children.
> 
> I am feed up with children running and screaming at Dillon when I'm walking him or standing outside a shop.
> 
> ...


I do agree with most of the above, however no breed is bred to fight and kill humans (I know thats no what your post says) but actually quite a lot of breeds were bred to kill.....nearly all the terriers, ridgies, wolfhounds to name a few all have 'killing' in their history, its not just bull breeds.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> I do agree with most of the above, however no breed is bred to fight and kill humans (I know thats no what your post says) but actually quite a lot of breeds were bred to kill.....nearly all the terriers, ridgies, wolfhounds to name a few all have 'killing' in their history, its not just bull breeds.


Ridgies were bred to bay as far as I know....not kill. But I do see your point!!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Manchesters were bred to Kill


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Ridgies were bred to bay as far as I know....not kill. But I do see your point!!


Sorry!!! I'm sure I was told they were used to hunt lions but I may have made that up!!!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> Manchesters were bred to Kill


I don't know how you find your two but i have a patterdale and a bull breed....I know who has the greater prey drive and kill instinct and it isn't the bull breed.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Yes all dogs can bite, but not all breeds were breed to fight and kill.


Bred to fight and kill?

Well that would include.....

ALL terriers
ALL hounds (both scent and sight hounds)
ALL "bull breeds" and various others that were developed for fighting / baiting or have been bred for such since.

And what has that got to do with it anyway? Staffies were bred to fight other dogs yes - but not to randomly savage children, or in fact show aggression towards people at all.

Of course, we could always demonise the breeds that have caused human fatalities - all those scary staffie-types, rotties, etc. AND the huskies, pomerians, dachshunds.....

Or we could look at the APBC statistics for which breeds are most frequently referred for human-aggression problems (ie biting), which include the old favourites - labs and collies.

I think all the info we need in this case is in the fact the dogs owner ALLOWED this to happen without doing anything.

IMO any person capable of watching a child get savaged without caring has something seriously wrong with them. Not just an irresponsible owner - but a heartless psycho with no empathy or morals at all. If he could allow that to happen to a child can you imagine how he probably treated his dog???

As for a much earlier suggestion that it seems to be "this type of dog" so often... can we really wonder why?

2 reasons IMO:

1) The media is hugely biased. Dog bites are not news. The vast majority of bites will never make it into even the local rag - but just a few make national headlines. The difference? Breed. Plain and simple. Had the dog in this case been a lab or a collie or a jack russell we would never have heard about it. Anything on their shortlist of "devil dogs" and suddenly its news. It doesn't mean staffies bite more than any other breed - just that we only hear about bites from certain breeds.

2) In all the cases I've followed over the last few years, there has been an obvious owner issue. This dogs owner was clearly a moron. The pit bull that killed a child a couple of years back on new years eve was obtained and owned illegally by a known criminal and drug dealer. The dog was abused, pumped full of steroids.... then locked outside on one of the worst nights of the year for a dog before being let in around a child known to tease it, under the supervision of a person off their face on drugs and booze. But it must be the breed right? How about this - how many morons go out and buy a lab, or a poodle, or a collie as a pen!s extension to make themselves look 'ard? None. How many buy such a dog to intimidate thier neighbours and impress their equally violent stupid mates? None. They buy bully types, or guarding breeds.

ANY bull or guarding breed can be an angel in the right hands. And ANY breed would be a liability in the hands of a$$holes like these.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

emmaviolet said:


> i have never seen or heard of a rough collie attacking anyone. there are also lots of breeds where there are no attacks too.
> 
> also the rough collie in most standards are highly recommended with children too, all the standards i have.
> 
> ...


My mother as a child was attacked by a Rough Collie, and ended up with stitches. That attack never hit the headlines - wrong breed, not sensational enough.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Sorry!!! I'm sure I was told they were used to hunt lions but I may have made that up!!!


Yes Ridgies went with the hunters, they cornered the lions and kept them at bay until the hunters came and shot the lions. The dogs didn't kill the lions.

Sorry to go OT


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I feel so sorry for this poor child.
As much as we debate deed not breed we all in our hearts know at the end of the day it is all of us as caring responsible dog owners who will in the long run suffer. We hear daily of dogs never being allowed off leads, this council bringing in rules, that authority not allowing tenants to own dogs. We all know that on our next walk past a group of school children, one child or mother will shriek. And all of us wether we own a SBT, a Ridgie or a Dalmatian will be watching our dogs extra careful if a child comes by, just in case....

Having a Dalmatian almost every day I have a child thrust in my dogs face. If I say anything I am the "dog snob" but what happens if one day he is scared and hurt at the same time he can't shout "oui f*** off"...... 

I am not for one moment saying this is what happened in this case and the owner should be punished ! Above all else I hope the little girl recovers quickly..


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Polimba said:


> Yes Ridgies went with the hunters, they cornered the lions and kept them at bay until the hunters came and shot the lions. The dogs didn't kill the lions.
> 
> Sorry to go OT


Ahhhh that makes more sense, I was only a kid when I was told this by a guy walking his 3 ridgies, i was maybe 12 or 13 and its just a random fact that stuck with me.


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## Longton Flyball (Nov 6, 2011)

Ok no-one will like this but I'm not a fan of staffie's only because my beloved Duke was attacked by one and poor Clover was attacked by two last weekend but I do blame the owners.

Unfortunately when Duke was attacked the idiot let the dog off even though he later said that he had not had the dog long and didn't know it but when I was on the floor pulling the dog off Duke the man didn't help and let it go a second time then walked off leaving me and Duke bleeding.

When Clover was attacked by the two both the male, female and young girl denied what their dogs were doing to Clover and didn't help my husband or Duke get the dogs off Clover.

People are idiots and unfortunately it's usually children or innocent dogs that get hurt.

The papers should really explain more about the owners that own these dogs when they attack and make the public aware that it isn't entirely the dogs fault.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Longton Flyball said:


> Ok no-one will like this but I'm not a fan of staffie's only because my beloved Duke was attacked by one and poor Clover was attacked by two last weekend but I do blame the owners.
> 
> Unfortunately when Duke was attacked the idiot let the dog off even though he later said that he had not had the dog long and didn't know it but when I was on the floor pulling the dog off Duke the man didn't help and let it go a second time then walked off leaving me and Duke bleeding.
> 
> ...


I think that is half the problem, Lexi has been attacked by 2 labs and 2 boxers in her life, I don't tar all labs or all boxers with the same brush, infact one of her bestest friends is a lab, but there are just so many idiots with staffies now that it is hard for people to judge.
We all know when you are out walking your dogs and you see a dog approaching you have a snap decision to make, I have learnt to live with the fact that, unless they know Lexi 95% of people will put their dog on a lead.
To be honest this now works to my advantage as Bos can be a little dog reactive and I know if I didn't have Lexi we would have far more dogs running over to us.
Realitically when writing the horror stories about these devil dogs, to do it properly they should be writing about the dogs history, its training if any, its daily routine and exercise regime and looking in WHY this happened....but where is the drama in that? Far easier to write EVIL BULL TERRIER MAULS CHILD, than "terrified abused dog cornered by child lashes out in fear" (not saying that is what happened here just an example) Not quite so much knee jerk shock horror reaction in the second story.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Completely agree with LexiLou2

The pit bull on new years eve:

Purchased and kept illegally (owner deliberately got a banned breed)
Owner was a known criminal and drug dealer
Not socialised or properly trained
Encouraged to be aggressive / used to intimidate and frighten the neighbours
Physically abused and given steroids
Teased / tormented by the child it later killed
Owner had been previously told by his vet that the dog had issues and needed to see a behaviourist - he didn't bother
Dog was locked outside alone on a freezing cold night with fireworks going off
Dog was let in and both dog and child were "supervised" by a woman wrecked on a mix of medicines, drugs and alcohol

The rottweiler that made national news (papers and TV) for killing its owner when out on a walk...

The owner died of a heart attack when out walking the dog
The dog tried to wake the owner - pawing at him then biting, and became distressed
Tried to guard his owner from the authorities when they arrived.
Whilst the original story was plastered across newspapers and TV screens nationwide, only one or two papers bothered with a tiny article correcting the mistakes.

Stories about dog abuse, irresponsible owners, PFs and BYBs, etc. don't sell papers. Sensationalist bulls!t does.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I remember watching a programme on animal planet animal cops (based in america) ther was a huge story across the papers of a pit bull that ate its owner, animal cops got a call from the vets holding the 'beast' to ask if the could help, they said they would go assess the dog and see if they could help....they turned up to find a 4 month old pit bull pup, full story she had been owned by a homless man who had got himself (and the dog locked in a shed the man died in there and out of pure starvation the dog started to eat her owner to survive. But that story although extremely sad and desperate does not shock you like Pit Bull eats Owner!! (they did get the gorgeous little pup a new and loving home)


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

Colette said:


> Completely agree with LexiLou2
> 
> The pit bull on new years eve:
> 
> ...


Congrats on your 2,000th post! Off topic I know but still..

Just read the post and now feel a little celebration may have been inappropriate, still a very valid and true post, the second part was especially sad


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

I get defensive because people believe what they read without knowing the facts and finding out for themselves by asking Responsible owners its very tragic what happened but i will not blame the dog, i would take the blame if any of mine ever hurt anyone.

We fit the classic young owners want a tuff dog image!!!! far from it though looks are deciving and we are all too quick too judge.

I dont think i should have too keep defending my dogs because they are the same breed of a dog that has a dick of a owner which has resulted in an incident.
My mum use too be one reading and beliving the rubbish about staffies in the press, until i got stanlie which to begin with she wasnt too happy about until i brought him home and now if anyone says anything bad about them she would be there in their defense before i even got the chance. She says they are her grandchildren, my brother has a staffy too which is stans half brother.

Do these look agressive too you !!!!!









We choose too have dogs they are our responsibility and we are the ones who control them, we know our dogs and know what their temps are like others dont.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> I get defensive because people believe what they read without knowing the facts and finding out for themselves by asking Responsible owners its very tragic what happened but i will not blame the dog, i would take the blame if any of mine ever hurt anyone.
> 
> We fit the classic young owners want a tuff dog image!!!! far from it though looks are deciving and we are all too quick too judge.
> 
> ...


I think we can clearly see from that photograph, that they are all devil dogs (from the eye shine), however, what worries me is the cat, who has his/her eyes closed, must have laser eyes 

(tongue firmly in cheek post, for those who might wonder)


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## PaulRyan (Aug 17, 2011)

Do these look agressive too you !!!!!









I see a spy amongst them!:001_tongue:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> I get defensive because people believe what they read without knowing the facts and finding out for themselves by asking Responsible owners its very tragic what happened but i will not blame the dog, i would take the blame if any of mine ever hurt anyone.
> 
> We fit the classic young owners want a tuff dog image!!!! far from it though looks are deciving and we are all too quick too judge.
> 
> ...


the one in the forfront looks the meanest


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

PaulRyan said:


> Do these look agressive too you !!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


opps! sorry!
replied to the wrong person!
the one in the forfront looks the meanest!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> I get defensive because people believe what they read without knowing the facts and finding out for themselves by asking Responsible owners its very tragic what happened but i will not blame the dog, i would take the blame if any of mine ever hurt anyone.
> 
> We fit the classic young owners want a tuff dog image!!!! far from it though looks are deciving and we are all too quick too judge.
> 
> ...


Hmmmmmm, I don't want to alarm anybody but I believe they may have possibly eaten you, im no Sherlock homes but it appears they have taken your sofa, stolen clothes, and gained control of your laptop, writing posts about how innocent they are :sosp: Clearly all the collies idea :idea: or maybe the cat?? The collie is obviously doing the typing though, the staffies couldn't do it, that would be stupid, staffies can't spell... i'm phoning the mirror, it's been a while since they got my last exclusive


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

redginald said:


> Hmmmmmm, I don't want to alarm anybody but I believe they may have possibly eaten you, im no Sherlock homes but it appears they have taken your sofa, stolen clothes, and gained control of your laptop, writing posts about how innocent they are :sosp: Clearly all the collies idea :idea: or maybe the cat?? The collie is obviously doing the typing though, the staffies couldn't do it, that would be stupid, staffies can't spell... i'm phoning the mirror, it's been a while since they got my last exclusive


Pmsl  Was all the cats idea hahahahahaha


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Pmsl  Was all the cats idea hahahahahaha


That confirms it, the collies typing


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Ridgies were bred to bay as far as I know....not kill. But I do see your point!!


Nope, Ridgebacks were used to hunt and kill wild boar.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Nope, Ridgebacks were used to hunt and kill wild boar.


Where did you get that from? I would be interested to know...as far as I have read they are bay dogs, not catch dogs in wild boar hunts but would like to learn more.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Where did you get that from? I would be interested to know...as far as I have read they are bay dogs, not catch dogs in wild boar hunts but would like to learn more.


Did a little research before i decided to get an Akita. Cant find the exact place but if you read breed history on wikipedia it quotes a book by a woman called Sue Fox. This however doesnt state that RR's kill wild boar but it does state RR's can kill baboon independently, without the help of human hunters. I'l try and find the stuff on killing wild boar and get back to you on that 

By the way, just going off topic. I saw a RR x Pitt female over the weekend, gorrrrrrrrgeous looking dog 

I also know a RR x Rottie, amazing looking but totally hates me and Sammy. Apparently was very friendly till it hit 18-24 months and then it became very dog aggressive. Funny thing is its fine with me if im just with Lucky lol


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

redginald said:


> Hmmmmmm, I don't want to alarm anybody but I believe they may have possibly eaten you, im no Sherlock homes but it appears they have taken your sofa, stolen clothes, and gained control of your laptop, writing posts about how innocent they are :sosp: Clearly all the collies idea :idea: or maybe the cat?? The collie is obviously doing the typing though, the staffies couldn't do it, that would be stupid, staffies can't spell... i'm phoning the mirror, it's been a while since they got my last exclusive


I laughed so hard at this!

Shelly_stanlie beautiful pictures, I'm very much like you, I'm very defensive about staffs I was never keen on them until we got our first staff George, then Buster followed years later  I think when people think of a stuffy owner they must picture someone very alike to my husband, tattooed skinhead. Whereas I dress in skinny jeans, Tshirts sometimes a hoody and heels or converse trainers. I'm aware people might get the wrong impression of us, they make us look tough or whatever - which makes me giggle as right now I'm watching American Dad in bed husbands asleep with George and buster cuddled under duvet either side of him like babies, soft gits


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Did a little research before i decided to get an Akita. Cant find the exact place but if you read breed history on wikipedia it quotes a book by a woman called Sue Fox. This however doesnt state that RR's kill wild boar but it does state RR's can kill baboon independently, without the help of human hunters. I'l try and find the stuff on killing wild boar and get back to you on that
> 
> By the way, just going off topic. I saw a RR x Pitt female over the weekend, gorrrrrrrrgeous looking dog
> 
> I also know a RR x Rottie, amazing looking but totally hates me and Sammy. Apparently was very friendly till it hit 18-24 months and then it became very dog aggressive. Funny thing is its fine with me if im just with Lucky lol


I know - we have been there with the Sue Fox / baboon thing before haven't we and the Wiki page?  . It does state they are capable of killing baboon....not that they were used for killing baboon. But I take your point.

I have done loads (and am still doing loads) of research as I find it fascinating and found lots of instances of them being used to hunt wild boar; but always in a baying capacity. None of the many books I have seem to mention them being anything but a bay dog either. It's something I discussed quite a lot with kilo's breeder just out of interest and I would like very much to know what your sources are as you seem very certain that I have my facts totally wrong and have promised me the wild boar sources before!!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I know - we have been there with the Sue Fox / baboon thing before haven't we and the Wiki page?  . It does state they are capable of killing baboon....not that they were used for killing baboon. But I take your point.
> 
> I have done loads (and am still doing loads) of research as I find it fascinating and found lots of instances of them being used to hunt wild boar; but always in a baying capacity. None of the many books I have seem to mention them being anything but a bay dog either. It's something I discussed quite a lot with kilo's breeder just out of interest and I would like very much to know what your sources are as you seem very certain that I have my facts totally wrong.


I will try and find the stuff for you if i can 

Its quite interesting how they came about with their roots firmly associated with the khoi khoi hunting dogs and Van Rooyen's dogs.

I think many people labels dogs like RR's and Akitas just because of what they have read in the media or what they have seen with idiotic owners.

These breeds are as loving as any other and as gentle as any other if brought up correctly.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> I will try and find the stuff for you if i can
> 
> Its quite interesting how they came about with their roots firmly associated with the khoi khoi hunting dogs and Van Rooyen's dogs.
> 
> ...


Won't argue with the labelling point, that is for sure and nor will the owners of many breeds of dogs!! .

I must admit I do get really irritated now when you tell me that I am wrong each time anyone asks about ridgies and their original purpose  . I don't mind being wrong as I know very, very little compared to most folk but do read a lot and am trying to improve my knowledge - but if you are going to contradict me every time with your "nope, you're wrong" I really wish you would qualify it.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Won't argue with the labelling point, that is for sure and nor will the owners of many breeds of dogs!! .
> 
> I must admit I do get really irritated now when you tell me that I am wrong each time anyone asks about ridgies and their original purpose  . I don't mind being wrong as I know very, very little compared to most folk but do read a lot and am trying to improve my knowledge - but if you are going to contradict me every time with your "nope, you're wrong" I really wish you would qualify it.


Erm, excuse me dogless but i didnt say you were wrong. Im simply stating what iv read.

Ridgebacks are as you have stated bay dogs. However, as they are pack dogs in groups of two or more were used to hunt and kill small game such as baboon, pig and wild boar. Notoriously individuals would show too much fealessness and often get killed by large game such as lions. Individuals that did show these traits were removed from the hunt and used as guard dogs to protect property and livestock.

But im guessing you know all that.

Like i said, before i got Sammy i was very interested in RR's and thoroughly looked into the breed. If i can find the stuff i read i shall pass it on to you but i dont need to qualify everything i write on here.

Anyway why are you getting so irritated? Because im saying your breed of dog is more than a bay dog?


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I'm sick of the constant blame on any breed for attacks. Dogs don't attack just because they find it fun. This dog, if it did actually attack, has been let down by the owner big time. At the same time, the young girl (by all accounts) was aggravating the dog- she has also been let down by her parents.
> 
> People need to become educated about dog behaviour and how it develops. If they did they would not be so quick to demonise dogs, as dog behaviour is not driven purely by genetic predispositions. Environmental input shapes behaviour massively, within the developmental constraints of genetic predisposition.
> 
> I am sorry for the girl and sorry for the dog.


Which accounts say the girl was aggravating the dog? Not being in the UK I can't see all the tv news but nowhere in the papers or BBC website does it say anything like this. They all say she was using a telescope she had been given as a present at Christmas and the dog charged at the family.

In the Telegraph it says the dog had been acting aggressive earlier on in the week which suggests the owner is to blame. He knew his dog was aggressive and yet let it off and allowed it out of his sight with no control. Obviously, you can't believe all that you read but I do think blaming the girl with no evidence is a bit off!

The blame lies 100% with the dog owner IMO.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

BlueBeagle said:


> Which accounts say the girl was aggravating the dog? Not being in the UK I can't see all the tv news but nowhere in the papers or BBC website does it say anything like this. They all say she was using a telescope she had been given as a present at Christmas and the dog charged at the family.
> 
> In the Telegraph it says the dog had been acting aggressive earlier on in the week which suggests the owner is to blame. He knew his dog was aggressive and yet let it off and allowed it out of his sight with no control. Obviously, you can't believe all that you read but I do think blaming the girl with no evidence is a bit off!
> 
> The blame lies 100% with the dog owner IMO.


I wondered the source of that information too.

I read someone came forward that the dog had attacked their dog earlier in the day.

I also read the owner had not had the dog long.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Nope, Ridgebacks were used to hunt and kill wild boar.


To me; you are just saying I am wrong like you do each time the topic arises. I know you don't need to qualify everything you write, but it would be nice when you argue to back up your argument with fact.



5rivers79 said:


> Erm, excuse me dogless but i didnt say you were wrong. Im simply stating what iv read.
> 
> Ridgebacks are as you have stated bay dogs. However, as they are pack dogs in groups of two or more were used to hunt and kill small game such as baboon, pig and wild boar. Notoriously individuals would show too much fealessness and often get killed by large game such as lions. Individuals that did show these traits were removed from the hunt and used as guard dogs to protect property and livestock.
> 
> ...


I do know that and am glad that the websites that come first in the Google searches are serving you well. I get irritated not because you say the RR is more than a bay dog at all - more for the reason that I have given beneath your first quote. No you don't need to qualify anything, but if you are going to pick someone up for what they are saying then it is courtesy really.

Anyhow, think this topic is done now...again.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Just been watching BBC Breakfast and they were interviewing a mother of a boy who was killed by the families pit bull, she is calling for all dogs to be muzzled at all times, in public and in the home!! They also said the father of the girl who had part of her ear bitten off the other day has been in touch with the program this morning to say he is going to start lobbying for staffy bulls to be added to the dangerous dogs list. My blood is boiling! So much so I want to start a petition and think we should all start lobbying our MPs in opposition to this nonsense. I don't have the time today but as soon as I do I'll start a petition and post the link on here. Anyone else think this would be a good idea?

Also another thought, since most areas have parks where there are child only play areas how about lobbying for dog only parks like they have in the US?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Galadriel17 said:


> Just been watching BBC Breakfast and they were interviewing a mother of a boy who was killed by the families pit bull, she is calling for all dogs to be muzzled at all times, in public and in the home!! They also said the father of the girl who had part of her ear bitten off the other day has been in touch with the program this morning to say he is going to start lobbying for staffy bulls to be added to the dangerous dogs list. My blood is boiling! So much so I want to start a petition and think we should all start lobbying our MPs in opposition to this nonsense. I don't have the time today but as soon as I do I'll start a petition and post the link on here. Anyone else think this would be a good idea?
> 
> *Also another thought, since most areas have parks where there are child only play areas how about lobbying for dog only parks like they have in the US?*


I absolutely hate the idea of dog parks I must admit. The thought of loads of over excited dogs all put together seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I like to be able to take my dog wherever I can within reason and to be able to use my own common sense; children that I don't know or lots of people about and he is on a short lead and headcollar, somewhere where a lead is required but is quiet, he is on a longer lead and somewhere safe for offlead he is off. I do think that only those who currently observe regulations would use the dog parks anyway - that section of dog owners who do as they please will most likely continue to do as they please.

I do agree with play areas where no dogs are allowed for kids to just be kids without any worries.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

So I take it he is now confirming that the dog was a staff or a bull breed?? :nonod:

I feel for that poor girl, I really do, but why oh WHY is it always the dogs fault.

If this does get a petition going, I'll support any anti-campaign going. I hate the thought of staffs being on that list.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I think problem owners and their dogs are a symptom of a much wider social problem. 

Where some people have no sense of community, no care of anything beyond 'them and theirs' where everything can be bought (and sold) gratification is instant there is no sense of growing, nurturing, investing time, patience and love. Commitment is fleeting, until it becomes difficult until it requires sacrifice. This covers all areas of life from the food eaten, to relationships. to parenthood, to pet ownership.

Well thats depressing I need a coffee


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I absolutely hate the idea of dog parks I must admit. The thought of loads of over excited dogs all put together seems like a recipe for disaster to me. *I like to be able to take my dog wherever I can within reason and to be able to use my own common sense; children that I don't know or lots of people about and he is on a short lead and headcollar, somewhere where a lead is required but is quiet, he is on a longer lead and somewhere safe for offlead he is off*. I do think that only those who currently observe regulations would use the dog parks anyway - that section of dog owners who do as they please will most likely continue to do as they please.
> 
> I do agree with play areas where no dogs are allowed for kids to just be kids without any worries.


I agree with what you've said that I've 'bolded' and I do the same but I do think dog parks that have a good code of practice would be great for dogs to have fun with other dogs without owners having to be on constant lookout for unruly children in the same way it's good for kids to be able to play without parents having to be on the lookout for dogs. It's not necessarily in response to what happened the other day to that poor girl either as I think that kind of incident is very rare, most attacks happening in the home as I understand. Just maybe in the name of fairness really.

In response to preventing irresponsible owners and just in response to some other comments on this thread, I don't think dog licences in the way they are currently being proposed would help at all. The focus needs to be on educating people on dog psychology but a good first step in my opinion would be to ban puppy farms and ban breeding of dogs amongst unlicensed breeders. Most 'problem' dogs come from puppy farms and people that breed just to make money and don't give a damn who they're selling to.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

LexiLou2 said:


> I do agree with most of the above, however *no* *breed is bred to fight and kill humans* (I know thats no what your post says) but actually quite a lot of breeds were bred to kill.....nearly all the terriers, ridgies, wolfhounds to name a few all have 'killing' in their history, its not just bull breeds.


That may be true, but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

If we could just have the right to roam in this country most folk with dogs would not even be in a park!!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> That may be true, but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.


:nonod: :nonod: *major Palm face*


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> I think problem owners and their dogs are a symptom of a much wider social problem.
> 
> Where some people have no sense of community, no care of anything beyond 'them and theirs' where everything can be bought (and sold) gratification is instant there is no sense of growing, nurturing, investing time, patience and love. Commitment is fleeting, until it becomes difficult until it requires sacrifice. This covers all areas of life from the food eaten, to relationships. to parenthood, to pet ownership.
> 
> Well thats depressing I need a coffee


Just want to say that this is spot on!....well said moonviolet :thumbup1:

Also wondering, do we have any confirmation as yet regarding what breed the dog that attacked is?

I know I could look online but I'm staying away from looking at all the bulls**t media hype, I'm also refusing to watch the daytime tv debates about the so called "vicious child killing dog breeds"...I have a headache already this morning and if I read/watch any breed bashing then my head will explode with anger and frustration


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> If we could just have the right to roam in this country most folk with dogs would not even be in a park!!


Ooo now there's another can of worms! lol I disagree with the right to roam because of yet again more irresponsible people; my grandparents have a small farm that has a public footpath running through their fields and the amount of trouble that causes is bad enough. Rubbish is left, gates are left open endangering people and animals, chickens are often killed and other livestock have been injured by dogs not under control. Plus people still think they have the right to roam when the don't and end up wandering all over the fields and round the house then try and have a go at me when I politely ask if they would stick to the path/keep the dog under control/take their rubbish home with them. I've even had a woman trying to start a fight with me because I'm playing ball with my three dogs on my grandparents' own land away from the footpath because her dogs were too scared to walk through the field! (Whilst this was going on my dogs were totally focused on me and the ball completely ignoring her two toy dogs who were barking, spinning and bareing teeth!)

Sadly another example of a minority spoiling it for the majority :|


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> That may be true, but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.


Sorry but how the hell do you come to that conclusion? Not all children attacked by dogs were screaming at the time, in fact I doubt many were, until the dog was actually attached to them with its teeth. Any dog which is frightened/provoked into attacking will do so regardless of breed. There is no little microchip or anything else stupid in say a Collie, that activates when a scream is heard that goes "Do not respond it's only a scream, I know you may not know what one is but it is a natural sound when near children. Your silly owner even knows you hate loud noises, thank god I was fitted or you would not be offlead now".

Or am I missing something in the history of dogs bred to fight or kill where they were trained by using the sound of children screaming? Sort of stage one, attack the screaming child, when successful the dog would then move onto a bull.

:nonod:

Your point is almost the same as saying if you walked along the beach with a Lab and it spotted some fish or some fishing nets it would have a high chance of retrieving them all because it's in the breeds history. Difference is my examples do have a part in the breeds history, screaming children have no part in any breeds history.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> That may be true, but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.


Little terriers are bred to kill, are there a significant number of attacks on screaming kids?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

DoggieBag said:


> Sorry but how the hell do you come to that conclusion? Not all children attacked by dogs were screaming at the time, in fact I doubt many were, until the dog was actually attached to them with its teeth. Any dog which is frightened/provoked into attacking will do so regardless of breed. There is no little microchip or anything else stupid in say a Collie, that activates when a scream is heard that goes "Do not respond it's only a scream, I know you may not know what one is but it is a natural sound when near children. Your silly owner even knows you hate loud noises, thank god I was fitted or you would not be offlead now".
> 
> Or am I missing something in the history of dogs bred to fight or kill where they were trained by using the sound of children screaming? Sort of stage one, attack the screaming child, when successful the dog would then move onto a bull.
> 
> :nonod:


You can't talk to a closed mind.

I've had my say, if you understand that's you not me.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> That may be true, but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.


Probably the most uninformed post on this thread so far.

I previously posted a link to the American Temperament Test Society who independently test large numbers of dogs within breeds to assess amongst other things, their level of aggression and response to stimulus with humans. Pitbulls have a higher than average pass rate, higher than "safe" dogs like a Golden Retriever (for example). Fighting pitdogs were bred to never show aggression to humans.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Not a closed mind at all, just one that hates stupid comments. And as I have already said I have no reason to stick up for Bull Breeds, Collies, RR's, GSD's, Yorkies, etc etc, because I do not own a dog. Nor do I have experience with any of those I mentioned.

I would jump to any breeds defence, regardless if I had personal experience of the breed or not.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Dogless said:


> To me; you are just saying I am wrong like you do each time the topic arises. I know you don't need to qualify everything you write, but it would be nice when you argue to back up your argument with fact.


I know nothing much about the breed, apart from they are gorgeous looking dogs and as they are big and powerful, like all other big and powerful dogs they need a responsible owner. But I always understood they were bred for baying lions. Looking at a website though I see they are used in other countries now for hunting other animals - which I suppose makes sense. After all, if you want a dog that has the skills to hunt and bay and you dont happen to have local lions why not turn that skill towards hunting other animals.
It does not alter their original use though, I dont think there should be any argument about that. Very few dogs are used solely , if at all, for what they were originally bred for.

I would also rather think that a responsible owner of a breed has researched it and will have the facts at their fingertips.



Lexiedhb said:


> If we could just have the right to roam in this country most folk with dogs would not even be in a park!!


We do have the right to roam, but you cant walk on crops, near livestock or past buildings so it does not just automatically open up the countryside.
I never walked my dogs around other dogs except for one park that I had to go through or would walk round for a quick walk. And at one time I was all over the country and always found nice places to walk. But you do have to have a car, and a lot of people dont have one - plus if you walk 'wild' it is often very muddy and dirty.

Back to the original topic. Has the breed of dog actually been confirmed. There seem to be so many stories. The owner of the child say the dog charged up to them from nowhere, the owner of the dog says is it was on the lead and he had asked the parents to keep the child under control.
I dont suppose we will ever know the truth, except that under no circumstances should ANY dog attack a human.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

YOu know if i can remember a long time ago i read that one of the reasons these breeds of dogs were used to fight(which i don't think any of is denying)..., was that it was very rare that they would actually bite People if they had to go in the pit whilst they were fighting....i'm not saying this is fact...just what i read 

This thread is just going round in circles...and to be honest some of the comments are just bloody stupid...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

And I do agree that a lot of dogs will 'attack' a screaming arm waving child, and the 'guard' breeds and collies are the most likely to do so (not the bull breeds though). After all dogs that are of the breeds that are easy to teach to attack , that is how they are taught. Well not with children I trust, but with a man.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> That may be true, *but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Ignorance is bliss! Lots of dogs were breed to kill, that does not mean they will then go out to kill a child just because a child screams.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> And I do agree that a lot of dogs will 'attack' a screaming arm waving child, *and the 'guard' breeds and collies are the most likely to do so (not the bull breeds though). *After all dogs that are of the breeds that are easy to teach to attack , that is how they are taught. Well not with children I trust, but with a man.


I'd better keep Buster away from my nephews and nieces then, they like to scream a lot and run about and he has tried to kill them, by licking them to death!!!!!!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

This is not massively relevant to the debate but there seems to be alot of discussion about children being at fault.

I was in the park recently having a coffee with some doggy friends.

A group came over to the cafe who were on an outing with children with severe learning difficulties.

Without warning one of the older children grabbed my arm and began squealing. It was simply a communication noise from the child who was enjoying the walk and excited by all the dogs. 

Oscar didn't react but one of the other dogs in the group (who is perfectly child friendly) stood up immediately alert and concerned by the childs actions. I remained calm and spoke to the child until the adult in charge was able to remove them from my arm (which wasn't that easy as the child was enjoying the chat) and the dog settled down (probably due to my response).

This was not a toddler, the child was not out of control or deliberately upsetting the dogs and it was adequately supervised by the adult in charge but the dog saw it as a threat. 

Now if i had a dog that was reactive to children i dread to think what could have happened if it had been un muzzled.

It just shows how quickly something can happen and turn into a disaster. 

If you own a nervous or reactive dog and you walk it in a public place it is your responsibility to ensure the safety of all concerned because ultimately it is your dog that will pay the biggest price.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Some of these status dogs are beat to an inch of their lives by people visiting their homes when they are young and unable to defend themselves... time after time an idiot(visitor) will enter the house stub **** out on the dog, batter it with a stick anything to inflict it pain...then just walk out...the dog eventually learns to attack first before its hurt by anyone who walks into the house.....

Bad devil dogs eh :nonod: devil people IMO


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> That may be true, but any dog breed to fight or kill hearing a child screaming is more lightly at attack than other breeds.


Most dogs react to shrirks , squels and screams, as they do to noises that they are not familair with, mine most certainly do, For starters their hearing is much more sensitive then ours.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

We all love our chosen breed mine is Border Collies some of which can be very nasty we defend our chosen breed to the end as we judge the breed on our own dogs and how we handle and train them, but many owners are not like that and very likely would not be members of this forum.If my child was attacked by a certain breed then I suppose that breed would be on my hit list that I think is human nature.I live in an area where poor staffies are trained by hanging them from trees getting them to swing on lumps of wood,but do I hate the breed no I hate the owners who churn out pups and then dump the bitches for people like me to pick up the pieces and try and re home them,so lets not argue about breeds lets venge our feelings on the owners theres no such thing as a bad dog just a bad owner.Suex


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The main issues for me here are:

1) Dogs are rarely used, and thus not genetically selected, for the jobs they were originally bred for, 

2) The act of inbreeding, crossing breeding & hybridization make huge genetic leaps in a short space of time, 

3) A dog's behaviour does not come straight from its genes or who it is bred from. This is an uninformed position! Even so called innate motor patterns can be changed in dogs depending on the developmental environment.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> :nonod: :nonod: *major Palm face*


I skipped the face palm and smacked my head straight on the desk..

They are not bred to fight humans so why would a dog bred to fight react more to a child screaming???? 

What a load of tosh.

ANY DOG could react to a screaming child, not just a dog bred to fight!!!!!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> Just been watching BBC Breakfast and they were interviewing a mother of a boy who was killed by the families pit bull, she is calling for all dogs to be muzzled at all times, in public and in the home!! They also said the father of the girl who had part of her ear bitten off the other day has been in touch with the program this morning to say he is going to start lobbying for staffy bulls to be added to the dangerous dogs list. My blood is boiling! So much so I want to start a petition and think we should all start lobbying our MPs in opposition to this nonsense. I don't have the time today but as soon as I do I'll start a petition and post the link on here. Anyone else think this would be a good idea?
> 
> Also another thought, since most areas have parks where there are child only play areas how about lobbying for dog only parks like they have in the US?


Personally no I don't think its a good idea it would just come across as totally insensitive to a knee jerk reaction from an understandably very very angry parent. A better idea would be to start lobbying for making people responsible for their dogs actions



Horse and Hound said:


> So I take it he is now confirming that the dog was a staff or a bull breed?? :nonod:
> I feel for that poor girl, I really do, but why oh WHY is it always the dogs fault.
> If this does get a petition going, I'll support any anti-campaign going. I hate the thought of staffs being on that list.





DT said:


> Most dogs react to shrirks , squels and screams, as they do to noises that they are not familair with, mine most certainly do, For starters their hearing is much more sensitive then ours.


Its got to be the fault of both owner and dog, wouldn't the majority of dogs shy away from a screaming child if that noise disturbed them? just because a dog is startled/disturbed/scared does not make it acceptable to attack a child and rip its ear off surely?


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Personally no I don't think its a good idea it would just come across as totally insensitive to a knee jerk reaction from an understandably very very angry parent. A better idea would be to start lobbying for making people responsible for their dogs actions
> 
> "]Its got to be the fault of both owner and dog[/B], wouldn't the majority of dogs shy away from a screaming child if that noise disturbed them? just because a dog is startled/disturbed/scared does not make it acceptable to attack a child and rip its ear off surely?


Please can you clarify your point highlighted in bold?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Jugsmalone said:


> Please can you clarify your point highlighted in bold?


If a dog, (I mean any dog of any breed) attacks a child there is something wrong with the dog tempremant wise. It may ultimately be the fault of the owner but you can't really just punish the owner and let the dog loose to do it again because it "wasn't the dogs fault".

If my dog ripped off a childs ear I would be devastated and I would have him put to sleep. I don't see children playing, squeeling being unpredictable can be used as an excuse, its what children do.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Its got to be the fault of both owner and dog, wouldn't the majority of dogs shy away from a screaming child if that noise disturbed them? just because a dog is startled/disturbed/scared does not make it acceptable to attack a child and rip its ear off surely?


No, you are right and I understand that, in fact I don't think I've said any different. If my dog attacked a person like that, I would most likely have it put to sleep.

HOwever, I wouldn't let my dog get into that state though. IMHO it is the owners fault for putting that dog in the position where it would do such damage.

And just because this particular dog did it , doesn't mean that ALL that breed of dog will do it, which is the knee jerk reaction I don't approve of.



DoodlesRule said:


> If my dog ripped off a childs ear I would be devastated and I would have him put to sleep. I don't see children playing, squeeling being unpredictable can be used as an excuse, its what children do.


Nope, again, you are correct. IT is what children do. However, dogs are dogs. They are unpredicatble, no matter what the breed which is why I will and would NEVER let my dogs off leash where there are children playing, and I would never leave them alone with a child.

A child can prod, poke, pull a dogs tail, or react in a way the dog is scared of. Then you end up with a nasty and potentially dangerous situation on your hands. The dog will snap, growl, bite...is it the dogs fault the child has poked him, or done something he is scared of?

Thing is, the dog in this instance may have had a temperament issue and this might have been triggered by something that the child did, or it might not have done. None of us know the facts. But the insistance that some dogs "just have it in them" is utter crap.

2 innocent lives wrecked by the careless attitude of one person.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I know nothing much about the breed, apart from they are gorgeous looking dogs and as they are big and powerful, like all other big and powerful dogs they need a responsible owner. But I always understood they were bred for baying lions. Looking at a website though I see they are used in other countries now for hunting other animals - which I suppose makes sense. After all, if you want a dog that has the skills to hunt and bay and you dont happen to have local lions why not turn that skill towards hunting other animals.
> It does not alter their original use though, I dont think there should be any argument about that. Very few dogs are used solely , if at all, for what they were originally bred for.
> 
> I would also rather think that a responsible owner of a breed has researched it and will have the facts at their fingertips.


Absolutely what I was saying Blitz - I know that they are used for hunting many types of animal; my point was more that they bay lions, wild boar etc and are sometimes used to bring down smaller animals. I am not sure whether or not you are calling me an irresponsible owner? I have researched whatever I can and continue to do so out of fascination with the breed - was just genuinely interested in where 5 got his info from!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Its got to be the fault of both owner and dog, wouldn't the majority of dogs shy away from a screaming child if that noise disturbed them? just because a dog is startled/disturbed/scared does not make it acceptable to attack a child and rip its ear off surely?






DoodlesRule said:


> If a dog, (I mean any dog of any breed) attacks a child there is *something wrong with the dog tempremant wise*. It may ultimately be the fault of the owner but you can't really just punish the owner and let the dog loose to do it again because it "wasn't the dogs fault".
> 
> If my dog ripped off a childs ear I would be devastated and I would have him put to sleep. I don't see children playing, squeeling being unpredictable can be used as an excuse, its what children do.


Biting or attacking is a hazard-avoidance behaviour. Other hazard-avoidance behaviours are freeze and flight. These are 'threshold' behaviours, i.e. all animals have them, but it takes a certain level of stimulus or arousal to trigger their response.

Through domestication (both natural and artificial selection) dogs have been selected and bred for a reduced flight distance to humans, i.e. they are not as scared of humans, even seeking out human attention. Compare this to a wild animal, for example, who has a greatly reduced threshold for flight.

Aggression is costly form of behaviour, there is no point putting the energy into aggressing or attacking if there is a better option that is less costly or dangerous to engage in. When animals, including dogs, are scared or threatened, their first option will most likely be to freeze or run away from whatever is scaring them. If this option is not available to them- to how the animal perceives the situation- then aggression is more likely to be used.

Now, a dog who is not socialised with little children will naturally be more wary of them because they are a novel or unhabituated stimulus. This means the dog may be more inclined to run away or aggress towards children. More specifically, if this tendency is rewarded, e.g. when a dog aggresses towards a child, the child moves away, the dog has been positively reinforced for this behaviour. The more it is reinforced or if the dog is heavily reinforced through one incident, the more likely they will aggress in similar situations as this is both the best and least costly strategy to avoid the hazard (child).

Putting this altogether then, dogs are not some maniacs who attack things down to temperament. Temperament is inherited traits, which doesn't make much genetic sense these days as behaviour is always epigenetic, i.e. a result of both the genes and the developmental environment. You can't have nature without nurture, they are inseparable.

So, for this dog, to attack was completely sensible as the dog had not been adequately socialised with children or had some bad experience. The dog was just defending itself in a situation that it perceived as so dangerous that it had to attack. What's more, the dog will have only bit the child once or twice I'd imagine and may be not that severely- ears are very fragile!

The fault, for me, is with the stupid owner or whoever is responsible for the dog's upbringing. The dog did not attack because it was a Staffy, or genetically aggressive (that makes no sense anyway), it attacked because it was the only option to it at the time (according to the dog, not us).


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Warning if you are easily shocked, but this photo may provide evidence to back up certain peoples views on "Bull Breeds".

Remember you have been warned, so do not do mouthing off at me for the grusome image. If prepared and brave enough then go ahead and click on the link.

http://itsthepitsrescue.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/bull-terrier-pit-bull-extreme.jpg


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> Warning if you are easily shocked, but this photo may provide evidence to back up certain peoples views on "Bull Breeds".
> 
> Remember you have been warned, so do not do mouthing off at me for the grusome image. If prepared and brave enough then go ahead and click on the link.
> 
> http://itsthepitsrescue.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/bull-terrier-pit-bull-extreme.jpg


I thought shall!! I what am I going to see


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

DoggieBag said:


> Warning if you are easily shocked, but this photo may provide evidence to back up certain peoples views on "Bull Breeds".
> 
> Remember you have been warned, so do not do mouthing off at me for the grusome image. If prepared and brave enough then go ahead and click on the link.
> 
> http://itsthepitsrescue.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/bull-terrier-pit-bull-extreme.jpg


I love that pic have seen it before  x


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Just read in the telegraph online (sorry don't know how to link to it) report of the court appearance. Shame about the picture but the report itself is less sensational than other papers, simply says:

Prosecution say family were preparing to go home, children walking a little ahead of them & dog game out of no where, knocked the little girl to the ground and started biting her back. Mum was trying to protect child and was also bitten on her arms. Owner turns up and was kicking the dog to try and get it off her. He gave parents a false address & left, defence say he was deeply shocked hence gave wrong address, pleaded guilty, had the dog for four months and its never done anything like that before. Police applied for a destruction order on the dog, that is being considered. Sentencing on 13th February


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Just read in the telegraph online (sorry don't know how to link to it) report of the court appearance. Shame about the picture but the report itself is less sensational than other papers, simply says:
> 
> Prosecution say family were preparing to go home, children walking a little ahead of them & dog game out of no where, knocked the little girl to the ground and started biting her back. Mum was trying to protect child and was also bitten on her arms. Owner turns up and was kicking the dog to try and get it off her. He gave parents a false address & left, defence say he was deeply shocked hence gave wrong address, pleaded guilty, had the dog for four months and its never done anything like that before. Police applied for a destruction order on the dog, that is being considered. Sentencing on 13th February


I don't see how the child could have provoked the attack. The owner had only had the dog for four months, so who knows what the dog's history is.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Absolutely what I was saying Blitz - I know that they are used for hunting many types of animal; my point was more that they bay lions, wild boar etc and are sometimes used to bring down smaller animals. I am not sure whether or not you are calling me an irresponsible owner? I have researched whatever I can and continue to do so out of fascination with the breed - was just genuinely interested in where 5 got his info from!


I know it was what you were saying, I was backing you up! and saying I would believe what you say as a RESPONSIBLE owner.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Just read in the telegraph online (sorry don't know how to link to it) report of the court appearance. Shame about the picture but the report itself is less sensational than other papers, simply says:
> 
> Prosecution say family were preparing to go home, children walking a little ahead of them & dog game out of no where, knocked the little girl to the ground and started biting her back. Mum was trying to protect child and was also bitten on her arms. Owner turns up and was kicking the dog to try and get it off her. He gave parents a false address & left, defence say he was deeply shocked hence gave wrong address, pleaded guilty, had the dog for four months and its never done anything like that before. Police applied for a destruction order on the dog, that is being considered. Sentencing on 13th February


Does anyone still think the family are lying ?? In a court of law ??


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

aww how cute is that pic


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

RAINYBOW said:


> Does anyone still think the family are lying ?? In a court of law ??


To be fair they could be. Slightly different to the story they gave the papers (if indeed they themselves are true. Plus the differences against witness statements (again if are true). I have come across many people who lie in court or at least stretch the truth.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I know it was what you were saying, I was backing you up! and saying I would believe what you say as a RESPONSIBLE owner.


That's how I read it Blitz, but didn't want to speak for you.

My understanding is the same as Dogless, that's from talking to lots of breeders, the breed club and my husband being brought up around Ridgies in Africa.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Polimba said:


> That's how I read it Blitz, but didn't want to speak for you.
> 
> My understanding is the same as Dogless, that's from talking to lots of breeders, the breed club and my husband being brought up around Ridgies in Africa.


It is mine too now.......now that I have read it properly!! .


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> To be fair they could be. Slightly different to the story they gave the papers (if indeed they themselves are true. Plus the differences against witness statements (again if are true). I have come across many people who lie in court or at least stretch the truth.


I just don't buy it.

The alternative is just too far fetched. I am just looking at what is the more "likely" scenario rather than just what they said


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Does anyone still think the family are lying ?? In a court of law ??


Well tbh rainybows I have NOT read anything related to it since the initial report, So cannot really comment on the question you asked in this instance.

BUT! it would not be the first time a person has lied in court! Is IS odd as it may sound a regular occurance (does anyone think that those charged with murder and plead innocence REALLY are all innocent?)

What has become a faze of late is exaggeration in the hope of a HUGE insurance payoff! NOT for one moment saying that this is evident in this instance.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> I have come across many people who lie in court or at least stretch the truth.


ONLY MANY! would suggest that could be an understatement!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DT said:


> Well tbh rainybows I have NOT read anything related to it since the initial report, So cannot really comment on the question you asked in this instance.
> 
> BUT! it would not be the first time a person has lied in court! Is IS odd as it may sound a regular occurance (does anyone thing that those charged with murder and plead innocence REALLY are all innocent?)
> 
> What has become a faze of late is exaggeration in the hope of a HUGE insurance payoff! NOT for one moment saying that this is evident in this instance.


I know all that DT i just don't buy it in this instance.

Will be interesting to see who is right


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I know all that DT i just don't buy it in this instance.
> 
> Will be interesting to see who is right


Erm, The public will have already drawn a colcusion about what they THINK happened, and what the punishment should be! Due to the media they WILL be baying for blood!
I have seem this happen once before !


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Of course you would think they would be telling the truth (just like you would when the father repeatly said he had to punch the dog off.....no mention of that in court), nor did he mention his wife got involved until court, or indeed that the owner was kicking the dog off. Again their story has changed from the one that the girl was stood near them with her new telescope.

So I would hazard a guess somewhere some lies are being told, or like I said an attempt to stretch the truth.

Their story is also does not fit in with the statement of an eldery couple who were passed by the owner and dog as they left the scene.

Someone is not telling the truth, how do you know for sure it is not the family sticking up for their daughter, their legal team omitting certain details but still trying to get the story across, maybe that old couple misheard the owners comments. Either way unless you were there, I do not think you can justify comments with words such as "Anyone think the family are lying now???, in a manner which comes across as "they must be telling the truth so why doubt them."

But like I said they *could* be lying. Remember I did not say they were


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Just to add, of course there is the chance (a good one I suspect) that alot more was said in court by all parties that are not mentioned in that Telegraph piece. Maybe parts that do tie in with earlier accounts from the family and others connected. Who knows???

Guess we will have to wait until next month and the next court appearance.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> This is not massively relevant to the debate but there seems to be alot of discussion about children being at fault.
> 
> I was in the park recently having a coffee with some doggy friends.
> 
> ...


Now you have hit the nail on the head, you and I know our dogs and If the dog was reactive to children our dogs would be muzzled. If we are uncertain our dogs are kept on a lead. Boils down to responsible dog ownership.

I don't blame the child or dog under any circumstances, its either the dog owners fault for not having the dog under control or the parents fault for allowing the child to approach a leashed dog.

Having said all that, I trained Duke so he was familiar with sudden noises and loud bangs, a baby's crys, a child's screams. What I am unable guarantee is recall once a chase is on. Fortunately I have only encoutered this with other dogs, he is very much - I'm off to play mum see you soon. Because I know this, I cannot allow him to run towards people, now if he were a little fluffy doggy no-one would bother that much unless they don't like dogs but a Staffie running towards you, sun in his eyes mouth wide open is intimidating to say the least, and whilst I own a Staffie, I wouldn't be happy if someone else's Staffie came hurtling towards me.

Consideration towards others is all that is required, I walk Duke on the grass verge to let people pass on the footpath, more often than not I get a thank you. People have a right to walk on the public highway, local Park or other public place in safety and as dog owners we have a duty to ensure our dog is not a nuisance, and under full control and we can all enjoy our doggy walks and family outings without incident.

Is there any news as to the little girls progress.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't see how the child could have provoked the attack. The owner had only had the dog for four months, so who knows what the dog's history is.


:wink: exactly, 
I'm doubtful he only had the dog four months, feasible reason why he didn't know it would react like it did, lesser punishment may be.

Why would anyone not knowing how the dog will react in any paricular situation walk the dog in a public area off lead. :nonod:

After only four months I would be concerned the dog wouldn't respond to recall and I would lose him. tbh


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sskmick said:


> Now you have hit the nail on the head, you and I know our dogs and If the dog was reactive to children our dogs would be muzzled. If we are uncertain our dogs are kept on a lead. Boils down to responsible dog ownership.
> 
> I don't blame the child or dog under any circumstances, its either the dog owners fault for not having the dog under control or the parents fault for allowing the child to approach a leashed dog.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.

In all honesty though people are becoming less tolerant of off lead dogs in general, regardless of breed. I witnessed a huge row last month in the counntry park between 2 families. One had an off lead collie who seemed perfectly well controlled but a guy in the other party had taken exception and was insisting they put it on a lead. I didnt see the build up so have no idea if the collie had caused a problem but it really didnt seem so yet this guy was getting really aggressive with the dog owners.

I don't let Oscar off in our local park on a weekend anymore because of the attitude of some people and he couldn' give a toss about inteacting with them.

I had one bad incident where he walked passed a couple who had a kid who was clearly terrified of dogs. Oscar didn't run over or anything was just mooching passed, the kid screamed so Oscar looked over and before i could call him in the woman started shaking a plastic bag at him which then freaked him out so he barked at the group. Totally not his fault, or mine or the kids. Shows just how easy something can escalate and he is a spaniel.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

There you go Rainybow, your dog reacted to a bag being waved at him. How do you know this dog didn't react to something as stupid as what colour coat the child was wearing?

As stupid and bad as it may seem, that might be all it took for the dog to freak out, especially if the owner as he is claiming has "only had it 4 months". He has no idea about the poor dogs history.

Dogs have trigger points. And some may have shorter tolerance spans than others.

But as this thread seems to suggest, that some dogs just go out ready to lunge at kids??? 

Its a crying shame, from a board of "dog lovers" too.

I actually cried last nigth, when I was sat with my big soft lump on my knee, thinking that if the knee jerk reaction is actually given credence, he could very likely be classified as a "dangerous dog" and where does that leave him? 

Destroyed or destined to live his life out, in public muzzled and on a leash.

:crying:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> In all honesty though people are becoming less tolerant of off lead dogs in general, regardless of breed. I witnessed a huge row last month in the counntry park between 2 families. One had an off lead collie who seemed perfectly well controlled but a guy in the other party had taken exception and was insisting they put it on a lead. I didnt see the build up so have no idea if the collie had caused a problem but it really didnt seem so yet this guy was getting really aggressive with the dog owners.
> 
> ...


I had an incident a while ago where we used to live. I was out with Toby in a small wood that was a verey popular place for dog walkers. As we strolled around we saw a young girl & her mother, I smiled & went to say hello, Toby was nearby sniffing a tree & showing no interest to either of them. All of a sudden the girl screamed, started running around waving her arms followed by her mother doing excatly the same  For a split second I thought Toby may think it was a game & start running after them but luckily he couldn't be bothered & continued to sniff about for squirrels!

Next thing the father comes running over telling me to put my dog on a lead as his wife & child were terrified of dogs. I did try to explain but he was having none of it. In the end I was quite rude back 

What I couldn't understand was why visit a place that you know if a popular dog walking area if you were that scared of dogs. (Btw this was made obvious as there were signs up about dog mess, warning where livestock was for dog walkers, etc). Why not visit a park there were plenty where I lived or somewhere where dogs had to be leashed?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

l


Horse and Hound said:


> There you go Rainybow, your dog reacted to a bag being waved at him. How do you know this dog didn't react to something as stupid as what colour coat the child was wearing?
> 
> As stupid and bad as it may seem, that might be all it took for the dog to freak out, especially if the owner as he is claiming has "only had it 4 months". He has no idea about the poor dogs history.
> 
> ...


But he didn't bite the childs ear off :confused1: That is the difference. Jesus if a dog reacts like that to such low level stimulus as the colour of a persons coat then damn right it should be muzzled and on lead.

If you re read the threads you will see very very little breed bashing going on (quite the opposite in fact). Just people aware of the responsibilities that come with owning a dog.

I don't see many people who think a nervous/aggressive dog should have some sort of "right" to be off lead either. That is just bonkers because ultimately the dog will pay the price.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I had an incident a while ago where we used to live. I was out with Toby in a small wood that was a verey popular place for dog walkers. As we strolled around we saw a young girl & her mother, I smiled & went to say hello, Toby was nearby sniffing a tree & showing no interest to either of them. All of a sudden the girl screamed, started running around waving her arms followed by her mother doing excatly the same  For a split second I thought Toby may think it was a game & start running after them but luckily he couldn't be bothered & continued to sniff about for squirrels!
> 
> Next thing the father comes running over telling me to put my dog on a lead as his wife & child were terrified of dogs. I did try to explain but he was having none of it. In the end I was quite rude back
> 
> What I couldn't understand was why visit a place that you know if a popular dog walking area if you were that scared of dogs. (Btw this was made obvious as there were signs up about dog mess, warning where livestock was for dog walkers, etc). Why not visit a park there were plenty where I lived or somewhere where dogs had to be leashed?


I agree. In our park there is an onlead and offlead area and i will defend Oscars right to be offlead as IMO he is perfectly safe.

Sadly i do feel that alot of places will just insist dogs are onlead because it is less hassle for them


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I think people think it is a right for their dog to be off lead. It isn't. Only well behaved and obedient dogs should be off lead. If you haven't trained your dog or its nervous, fearful or aggressive, then it should be on lead.

I think its seen as a right to have your dog off lead, when it should be a privilage that you earn through training your dog. If more people kept their dogs on lead than let them off (when the dogs are either not trained, not socialised or have behaviourial issues), then there may be less problems with dogs and less attacks.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I had an incident during the summer that with another dog could have had an awful outcome. I'm not saying it's anything like what happened in this case. Just highlighting that there is insufficient child education and often insufficient supervision.

I was walking on MOD land and i heard a group of very hyper children I put Tink *on lead *and adjusted my route so we wouldn't encounter them. A, because they sounded so wound up and the screaming was going right through me. B, because while Tink is happy to meet and do a trick for calm children I thought this group would be a step too far.

The path I took ran through the trees what I considered to be a fair distance away I could see there were adults sitting on a blanket ( odd spot for a picnic with training soldiers firing guns, there's an award winning park not a 5 min walk away, but each to their own) Next thing I know we're are being run toward by 5 of the children all squealing. we are surrounded or should i say Tink is surrounded. 10 hands pawing at her. Trying to be polite, they're only kids. I asked them to step back give her space they only seemed to make them paw at her more. I got firmer and firmer and firmer in the end shouted at the picnicing adults " recall these children now." (I know you don't recall children, but these ones really should have been on lead!) It really was scary and frankly if Tink had snapped there was no one to blame but the adults responsible for these children although, of course it wouldn't have been the case now would it. I feel I have a right to walk my dog in the countryside (and i'm not saying the parks with the childrens play areas) and not be mobbed by a pack of marauding children!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

sskmick said:


> Is there any news as to the little girls progress.


I think you are the only person to have asked after the little girl, how sad:crying:



SEVEN_PETS said:


> I think people think it is a right for their dog to be off lead. It isn't. Only well behaved and obedient dogs should be off lead. If you haven't trained your dog or its nervous, fearful or aggressive, then it should be on lead.
> 
> I think its seen as a right to have your dog off lead, when it should be a privilage that you earn through training your dog. If more people kept their dogs on lead than let them off (when the dogs are either not trained, not socialised or have behaviourial issues), then there may be less problems with dogs and less attacks.


Agreed - my dog is not nervous fearful or agressive yet if I see people without dogs or with children I still clip him back on lead, they may not like dogs and be fearful of off lead dogs, or if children come over to make a fuss (as they frequently do) I have control of him, simply because he is big and could easily knock a small person over. I think its just a matter of consideration for others and being responsible, maybe if everyone was more considerate to others than demanding their rights we would all have a lot less problems


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> l
> 
> But he didn't bite the childs ear off :confused1: That is the difference. Jesus if a dog reacts like that to such low level stimulus as the colour of a persons coat then damn right it should be muzzled and on lead.
> 
> ...


No, he didn't bite the childs ear off, I was using it as an example of how he reacted to something.

And yes, if that is how it reacts to something so simple it should be at the very least muzzled (and to be honest on a lead as well).

Don't think I've said any different.

Not the dogs fault that it wasn't though. Which is what I'm getting at and pretty sure you're saying the same thing.

And there has been some breed bashing on here, saying they are bred to fight therefore will attack...???

Neither of my two would bite a child, but if I see a group of kids or a family with toddlers walking with them mine ALWAYS go back on the lead to avoid any potential missunderstandings, and Harvey would bowl them over. However, that's common sense.

Sadly it doesn't occur to all people.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> No, he didn't bite the childs ear off, I was using it as an example of how he reacted to something.
> 
> And yes, if that is how it reacts to something so simple it should be at the very least muzzled (and to be honest on a lead as well).
> 
> ...


Shame everyones not like us then there wouldn't be a problem


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Shame everyones not like us then there wouldn't be a problem


Agreed, and its always the ruddy dogs and poor children like this that suffer.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Agreed, and its always the ruddy dogs and poor children like this that suffer.


Thats because people simply dont understand the consequences of their irresponsibility.

Non dog savvy parents have no idea how dangerous it is to allow their kids to approach strange dogs and what suprises me most is the number of dog owners who don't seem to realise the risk they put their dog at with their irresponsibility 

Sadly the idiots that cause the problem won't abide by any new laws that are introduced so the responsible people and their lovely dogs will pay the price for these ignorant twats. Thats what makes me angry


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

To be quite honest, and sorry to go off subject! But I am sick to the back teeth of all these proposed laws that these waste of space do gooders are trying to get passed!

NO repsonsilbe dog owner in their right mind would take a KNOWN human agressive dog into as area that was densly populated by adults let alone children!

BUT! Many dog owners are GOOD RESPONSIBLE dog owners, with placid , well behaved dogs! Why the hell should we always HAVE to be aware that just around the corner on the walk there just could be some molly coddled kid thats scared to death of dogs and will run shrieking and screaming at the mere site as on!

OK NO ONE wants to see of a child scared, mauled of hurt by a dog - but do folk really want to see ALL dogs muzzled in public and NEVER allowed off the lead!

Because I'll tell you this for sure , and I have NEVER ever broken the law, but if EVER such a day arises I will then CEASE to be a responsible dog owner any longer! I never had my dogs for them to be muzzled 24/7 nor keep leashed for their entire lives.

Dog owners have rights too! 

Back to the subject - hope the little girl continues to recover!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

And can I just point out!
Again sorry to be way off track!

The emphasis her tend to be on Idiot Irresponsible dog owners!

LEts not forget there are some pretty idiotic parents out there to! So what are we going to do with these unruly kids from these idiot parents then? Demand they be kept on reins and never allowed out of the house unless accoumpanyied by a RESPONSIBLE adult!


NOT RELATED to the OP I know - but something we are often reminded!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DT said:


> And can I just point out!
> Again sorry to be way off track!
> 
> The emphasis her tend to be on Idiot Irresponsible dog owners!
> ...


I don't think anyone was denying that  Had to save Oscar from a crawling one year old today while Mum was having coffee. The baby then spent the rest of the time "playing" at the top of a seriously steep flight of stairs  I had my heart in my mouth the whole time i was there trying to have a meeting with the Rangeer while keeping an eye on HER kid. FFS it's my day off


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I can remember last year when I was just unloading the dogs from the car and there was a father with his 2 children I did wonder what he was doing but he was picking up stones and as I got the dogs out of the car (none of whom are in least interested in kids)he told the kids "If they come near you throw these at them filthy Bl***y dogs"as I walked past what did the boy do but threw a stone and hit one of the dogs,this is just an example of how dog hating parents can teach there children to be the same


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I don't think anyone was denying that  :


No, not on here Rainybows I don' thiink there are, but we are a forum mostly united in our love of animals!
But sadly, in the real world there ARE those that are calling for extreme measures! Same as when the law was passed regarding the dangerous breeds! What is happening now is that the whole area surrounding dog ownership has moved up a gear!


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

I remembered once hearing someone having a go at a St Bernard owner for having a dangerous breed all because it is a breed on the banned and restricted list over in the US.

This memory has just prompted me into looking this list up. It is surprising what breeds are on there:

List Of 75 Banned Or Restricted Breeds Is your Dog On The New List??You Might Be Suprised.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

suewhite said:


> I can remember last year when I was just unloading the dogs from the car and there was a father with his 2 children I did wonder what he was doing but he was picking up stones and as I got the dogs out of the car (none of whom are in least interested in kids)he told the kids "If they come near you throw these at them filthy Bl***y dogs"as I walked past what did the boy do but threw a stone and hit one of the dogs,this is just an example of how dog hating parents can teach there children to be the same


Id have pretended the stone hit me and reported the dad for assault.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> I remembered once hearing someone having a go at a St Bernard owner for having a dangerous breed all because it is a breed on the banned and restricted list over in the US.
> 
> This memory has just prompted me into looking this list up. It is surprising what breeds are on there:
> 
> List Of 75 Banned Or Restricted Breeds Is your Dog On The New List??You Might Be Suprised.


What sort of a fook, halfwit, pratt ejjit did that?

coming is at!! 45. GOLDEN RETRIEVER

Gorra be extracting the urine surely!

you COULDN'T make it up could you


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

To add to my above post:

The bans and restrictions vary by state.

Here is a little more information (scroll down to USA)

Breed-specific legislation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems weird to me that you can a type of dog freely in one part of the US but not another.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Interesting read - Who do we fear more


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

This happened about 2 weeks before the incident relating to this thread. Wonder why the nationals did not use this story???? 

Woman, 65, attacked by dog (From Bucks Free Press)


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

I cannot believe an English Springer Spaniel is on the list!

Also shocked about the golden retrievers & labs, but Springers aren't very big! Shocking.

& hope the girl is doing okay now bless her.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

DoggieBag said:


> This happened about 2 weeks before the incident relating to this thread. Wonder why the nationals did not use this story????
> 
> Woman, 65, attacked by dog (From Bucks Free Press)


Not sensationalist enough.

They can't use their fave, evil dog photo.

And anyway, a cuddly lab, that's not bred for fighting couldn't ever do anything like this...

:nonod:


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> I remembered once hearing someone having a go at a St Bernard owner for having a dangerous breed all because it is a breed on the banned and restricted list over in the US.
> 
> This memory has just prompted me into looking this list up. It is surprising what breeds are on there:
> 
> List Of 75 Banned Or Restricted Breeds Is your Dog On The New List??You Might Be Suprised.


Newfoundland....seriously the NEWFOUNDLAND??!!! Is this typing error???? 

WTF! I am stunned beyond belief, I have never read anything so utterly ridiculous in my entire life!

Obviously I don't know every single Newfoundland in the world...but I must say that Scott the Newfie I owned spent the first 3 years of his life chained up in a yard and was mistreated, not properly socialised and probably the prime example of a dog that is potentially going to have serious behavioural/possibly aggression issues....but no, after settling in and gaining some trust in humans even he was the most gentle, loving and calm dog I have ever known, he was bubbly, confident, fun and incredibly patient, so patient in fact that I couldn't have asked for a better dog to have around my 2 young children!

Anyway, thats going off track...I just feel fed up with all the hype and media attention that follows a dog attack, actually I'll rephrase that, I mean the hype and media attention that follows a bull breed attack because lets face it, when another breed attacks it doesn't get anywhere near the same media coverage, it does make me wonder what the statistics are for children being killed by abuse/neglect, or by drunk drivers....which of course is truly horrible but it doesn't get the same coverage even though the figures are more than likely far higher.

My heart goes out to anyone, child or adult, that has been through the horrific experience of being attacked by any dog and as a parent myself, I can't even begin to imagine what the little girl and her family have gone through....my thoughts are with them and I wish her a quick and speedy recovery, both mentally and physically.

I'd just wish some people would see the bigger picture a bit more before breed bashing.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Totally gobsmacked!! Newfies, stbernards and im sorry but pugs???


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

tashax said:


> Totally gobsmacked!! Newfies, stbernards and im sorry but pugs???


Pugs just made me laugh so much.

(Before anyone says it, I know any dog can do damage. It's just the idea of a cute little pug looking angry....:001_wub


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

EllesBelles said:


> Pugs just made me laugh so much.
> 
> (Before anyone says it, I know any dog can do damage. It's just the idea of a cute little pug looking angry....:001_wub


Im not trying to cause an argument but some ill-bred pugs can hardly breathe?? let alone savage someone. Yes the can bite and hurt but seriously pugs????


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

EllesBelles said:


> Pugs just made me laugh so much.
> 
> (Before anyone says it, I know any dog can do damage. It's just the idea of a cute little pug looking angry....:001_wub


Seriously DO NOT underestimate The Pug 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/207134-killer-dog-country-park-mauls-man.html


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I think they base things on size......... with the exception of the pug LOL


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

sskmick said:


> Now you have hit the nail on the head, you and I know our dogs and If the dog was reactive to children our dogs would be muzzled. If we are uncertain our dogs are kept on a lead. Boils down to responsible dog ownership.


Even if you know your dog they can suddenly react to something they've never reacted to before. I'd had Rupert 7 years, knew he was wary of toddlers but fine with older children and I was very on the ball about his body language because of his behaviour problems. One day I had him out front of the flat for a toilet walk and he went absolutely ballistic at a group of 3 children, 2 girls and a boy. Now these kids were doing nothing to provoke him, they were just standing around, yet he was lunging and barking and behaving very aggressively towards them. He had _never_ done this before, nor did he ever do it again and to this day I don't know what triggered it. A very upsetting incident although he never made contact with the kids as he was leashed and muzzled. We were very careful around children after that but he never reacted badly to any others


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Even if you know your dog they can suddenly react to something they've never reacted to before. I'd had Rupert 7 years, knew he was wary of toddlers but fine with older children and I was very on the ball about his body language because of his behaviour problems. One day I had him out front of the flat for a toilet walk and he went absolutely ballistic at a group of 3 children, 2 girls and a boy. Now these kids were doing nothing to provoke him, they were just standing around, yet he was lunging and barking and behaving very aggressively towards them. He had _never_ done this before, nor did he ever do it again and to this day I don't know what triggered it. A very upsetting incident although he never made contact with the kids as he was leashed and muzzled. We were very careful around children after that but he never reacted badly to any others


I agree. A few months ago whilst out with Toby (who is a calm & steady dog) a fisherman suddenly appeared on the bank we were walking & startled us. I sort of gasped as the man had walked up the steep bank & apeared from some bushes but good old Toby who is fine with everyone went ballistic, ran over to the man & stood there barking quite aggressively at hm.

Luckily the man remained calm & didn't move. I recalled Toby, he came over & I put him on his lead. I couldn't apologise enough to the poor man who was so good about it all. He realised that he had startled us both hence Toby's reaction (we had seen him previously on our walks & always said hello so he knew Toby wasn't some 'devil dog').

Toby has never reacted like that before with anyone & it really did suprise & shock me.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree. A few months ago whilst out with Toby (who is a calm & steady dog) a fisherman suddenly appeared on the bank we were walking & startled us. I sort of gasped as the man had walked up the steep bank & apeared from some bushes but good old Toby who is fine with everyone went ballistic, ran over to the man & stood there barking quite aggressively at hm.
> 
> Luckily the man remained calm & didn't move. I recalled Toby, he came over & I put him on his lead. I couldn't apologise enough to the poor man who was so good about it all. He realised that he had startled us both hence Toby's reaction (we had seen him previously on our walks & always said hello so he knew Toby wasn't some 'devil dog').
> 
> Toby has never reacted like that before with anyone & it really did suprise & shock me.


That' s not "being aggressive for no reason" if you ask me.

Your dog might have picked up on your gasp or himself been startled.

And for all those "mocking" the dangerousness of the Pug...the only scar I have from a dog bite is from one of those little gremlins.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> That' s not "being aggressive for no reason" if you ask me.
> 
> Your dog might have picked up on your gasp or himself been startled.
> 
> And for all those "mocking" the dangerousness of the Pug...the only scar I have from a dog bite is from one of those little gremlins.


Oh no, I can see why Toby acted like that & understand why - he's not a robot so acted as he was probably scared initally. It did shock me though as to what may have happened had the man acted badly towards this then the situation may have escalated. I know it's a 'what might have been' but still worried me a bit

I was lucky that the man was understanding as many people would not have been.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Battersea Dogs & Cats Home response to Essex dog attack - Battersea Dogs & Cats Home


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I had my first experience of Lexi reacting, she is such a people loving dog but had them both out on my own the other day and out from behind a tree a man appeared all in black wearing a balaclava and sorted of walked behind us.
No being honest his sudden appearence and his 'dress' made me nervous along with the fact he was walking quite close behind us. Well Lexi started to growl, one bark and continued to growl, a deep throaty growl and would not walk forwards she walked backwards looking at him the whole time he was behind us.
In a way it made me feel 'safer' as I wasn't sure on his intentions but still did shock me that she reacted that way.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> I had my first experience of Lexi reacting, she is such a people loving dog but had them both out on my own the other day and out from behind a tree a man appeared all in black wearing a balaclava and sorted of walked behind us.
> No being honest his sudden appearence and his 'dress' made me nervous along with the fact he was walking quite close behind us. Well Lexi started to growl, one bark and continued to growl, a deep throaty growl and would not walk forwards she walked backwards looking at him the whole time he was behind us.
> In a way it made me feel 'safer' as I wasn't sure on his intentions but still did shock me that she reacted that way.


TBH. I would expect my dog to react like that under those circumstances and he would. I trust my dogs instinct in those sort of circumstances and it certainly would have made that guy think twice.Oscar has reacted to men before, usually if they are wearing a hoodie because of an idiot teenager who thought it was funny to try and spook him outside the cafe once, he got more than he bargained for when the cutesy fluffy spaniel went ballistic at him , he jumped 4 ft in the air and i didn't apologise, infact i told him he deserved that and in future maybe he will show dogs a bit more respect


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

just read on yahoo news, the owner of the dog was spared jail & has been given a 12 week suspended sentence also placed under curfew for 6 weeks Man spared jail for girl dog attack - Yahoo!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think that is a good result.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

That is a good result


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree. 

Was trying to think what effect the curfew would have/why was it imposed. But guess it will effect his freedom, which I guess why it was handed out.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

DoggieBag said:


> I agree.
> 
> Was trying to think what effect the curfew would have/why was it imposed. But guess it will effect his freedom, which I guess why it was handed out.


He is on electronic tag so wont be allowed out of his home between the hours of 7pm and 7am (dont quote me on that but its usually tag hours) which is really going to affect his freedom.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

tashax said:


> He is on electronic tag so wont be allowed out of his home between the hours of 7pm and 7am (dont quote me on that but its usually tag hours) which is really going to affect his freedom.


Yeah just did not hit me as a obvious punishment for not having control of a dog (like the other parts of his punishment). But yes the 11 hours he has to stay indoors will effect his freedom of movement.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

No not an obvious punishment but i dont think he walked out the house and decided that he wanted his dog to attack a little girl so i think the judge has been lenient on the grounds that it wasnt a purposeful attack and he handed himself in


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

between the curfew, compensation he has to pay and the ban on owning animals for 10 years oh and 200 hours community service hopefully he has learnt his lesson

by restricting his freedom in such a public manner and being forced to pick up dog mess or whatever the council have him doing - it's far more of a 'lesson' than going to prison for 12 weeks

as Tashax says - he didn't *intend* to harm anyone and apart from initial panic did turn himself in - he was just an idiot and sadly a little girl is traumatised and scarred for life and a beautiful dog has lost it's life

I do really like what the judge said though



> The judge said Hindley was not doing his duty by his dog or by others around him and added that all pets must be properly controlled.
> He said: "Buddy was not well-trained, not well-looked after and not well-supervised."


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Right result but a shame poor Buddy had the wrong owner and paid with his life


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I think the judge got it spot on to be honest with you.


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