# Pictures of my mini lop kits at 5 weeks old - lots of pics



## MrsSmith (May 24, 2011)

This is my first litter of purebred, pedigreed mini lop kits. They will be five weeks old on friday, so two days from now. I plan to keep the REW buck. Though I wonder if the grey mark on his tail and the smudge on his nose and ears is a recognized color or not? Would like to keep him to breed with my solid black doe.

Here they are, kind of some random photos, some have one ear completely dropped other have both up, my buck usually has both down as does one of the broken agouti ones. When they are excited or really listening their ears go back up. What age will they no longer be able to hold them erect? Also what color of agouti are they?


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2011)

They are gorgeous.

I really hate to tell you but they aren't pure mini lops 

ETA: Not sure if you are aware or not but you really shouldn't allow your guinea pig in with your buns, rabbits carry bordatella which can be fatal to guinea pigs.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

i would say your REW is a VERY missmarked himi, and sorry but none of them are worth keeping back to breed from =/
the crowns on them all are way off, whats the crown like on the black doe you plan to breed him to, and waht colours would you hope to achive? himi wouldnt give you any showable colours, what are the genetics behind their parents

and sorry, but none of them look to be pure minilops either, i see very few minilop charactoristics

what are the reasons behind your breeding? as cute as these bunnies are, there is no way they will better the breed.
can i see pictures of their parents?

and please keep the guinea pig out of the run with them!
they can easily kill him with 1 accidental kick, or a happy binky
all rabbits carry bordatella too, which causes them no harm, but is lethal to piggies


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Can't further what has already been said.

But wow your agoutis are like cartoon bunnies...they are little perfect specimens (perfect in cuteness i mean)!!!


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

The white one is defo a mismarked Himi.
Agouti is a colour in its own right, there are no shades and variations on it.

I agree they are certainly not pure mini lops i'm afraid and non of their characteristics meet the breed standard to which they would be judged.

Nevertheless they are beautiful bunnies. I'd also be interested to hear your reasons for breeding rabbits. If it it for showing and breed improvement then you need to find some real pedigrees whos characteristics match that of the breed standard then very carefully ensure that you breed to improve on that. The sad thing is though that it just means more bunnies are being bred for pets and there are far too many needing homes as it is.

Very pretty though ...


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

jo-pop said:


> The white one is defo a mismarked Himi.
> *Agouti is a colour in its own right, there are no shades and variations on it.*
> 
> I agree they are certainly not pure mini lops i'm afraid and non of their characteristics meet the breed standard to which they would be judged.
> ...


What about the Chesnut, Opal or Chocolate Agouti


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Gorgeous buns, definitely please find the piggie alternative accomodation though, it's a myth that they can be kept together & it can end badly


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

jo-pop said:


> The white one is defo a mismarked Himi.
> Agouti is a colour in its own right, there are no shades and variations on it.


actually you are wrong, agouti is a pattern, not a colour, it refers to the banding on their hair shafts
there are a fair few different variations on the agouti (A) gene resulting in the many different "agouti" base coats
chestnut agouti, chocolate agouti, and also the colours known as opal, lynx and tan
we then also have the chinchilla, the squirel and even the frosted and such which are all agouti based, and fall under the agouti family!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

Lil Miss said:


> actually you are wrong, agouti is a pattern, not a colour, it refers to the banding on their hair shafts
> there are a fair few different variations on the agouti (A) gene resulting in the many different "agouti" base coats
> chestnut agouti, chocolate agouti, and also the colours known as opal, lynx and tan
> we then also have the chinchilla, the squirel and even the frosted and such which are all agouti based, and fall under the agouti family!


And that is what happens when you can be bothered to type it all out, unlike my response :lol:


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> And that is what happens when you can be bothered to type it all out, unlike my response :lol:


hey i could have gone into MUCH more details about A a and at i could have also gone on to explain the whole A-B-C-D (Agouti, Black/chocolate, Colour, Dense/Dilute, Extension) genotype of each and how it all works! buuuuuut i think thats too much, and besides, the op should know all that if they are breeding, so theres no point posting it just to confuse jo  :lol: :lol: :lol:

but then again, if the OP knew this, she would also know just what shade of agouti her kits are, and she would also know the "REW" is a miss marked himi.................


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

Lil Miss said:


> hey i could have gone into MUCH more details about A a and at i could have also gone on to explain the whole A-B-C-D (Agouti, Black/chocolate, Colour, Dense/Dilute, Extension) genotype of each and how it all works! buuuuuut i think thats too much, and besides, the op should know all that if they are breeding, so theres no point posting it just to confuse jo  :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> but then again, if the OP knew this, she would also know just what shade of agouti her kits are, and she would also know the "REW" is a miss marked himi.................


Ohh yes I agree, that's why my first post was so thin so to speak :lol:
We should be used to confusing people with the genetics behind colour tho


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Lil Miss,im actually jealous of your knowledge!!!  How do you know so much?? Do you only know rabbit things or other animals too??


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

zowie said:


> Lil Miss,im actually jealous of your knowledge!!!  How do you know so much?? Do you only know rabbit things or other animals too??


Feels deflated as knows just as much about genetics but couldn't be arsed to type it :crying:


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

zowie said:


> Lil Miss,im actually jealous of your knowledge!!!  How do you know so much?? Do you only know rabbit things or other animals too??


what can i say Litle Miss Know It All was too long to put in the box!!!! (i kid :lol

I know a fair bit about most animals, but there is always much more to learn, and to be honest, unless you plan on breeding, theres no real point in confusing your self with genetics, i only bother with them because they fascinate me, and its very handy to know when you are dealing with rescue animals, especially ones that are or could be pregnant, it helps you figure out what to expect

in my opinion though any one who plans to breed anything should have a pretty damn good understanding of genetics


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Feels deflated as knows just as much about genetics but couldn't be arsed to type it :crying:


i know you do hun  
how long have we spent working out genetics of certain animals :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

Lil Miss said:


> i know you do hun
> how long have we spent working out genetics of certain animals :lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh god now that would be telling 
Many a time I've had a confused Den look over my shoulder to a msn convo full of random letters as far as he is concerned :lol:


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Lil Miss said:


> actually you are wrong, agouti is a pattern, not a colour, it refers to the banding on their hair shafts
> there are a fair few different variations on the agouti (A) gene resulting in the many different "agouti" base coats
> chestnut agouti, chocolate agouti, and also the colours known as opal, lynx and tan
> we then also have the chinchilla, the squirel and even the frosted and such which are all agouti based, and fall under the agouti family!


Ahh sorry guys. I stand corrected. Learn something new every day


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Haha that is why I could not breed...how utterly confusing is all that! Well done Lil_Miss....and the silent Bernie


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## MrsSmith (May 24, 2011)

I first off want to say, that though I am new to mini lops I have bred and showed rabbits for 4 years as an adult, and had them most of my childhood as well. However for the majority of those 4 years we have raised and shown awesome Siamese satins. I have included a couple pictures of them, who do absolutely great in shows. Last year we added mini rex (a favorite from my childhood) and last spring where finally able to get a great quality mini rex buck who has done great in the show ring. My husband has wanted lops though, we where looking for Holland lops (what is called a mini lop in the UK) but found the mini lops (I believe they are called dwarf lops in the UK?) perhaps I should of mentioned that, I spend so much time on this site I forget that we are from so many different parts of the world!
Anyway we spent $40 on a great little buck - Alex - He hasn't been shown but has some winners in his history. Then we found a doe, not as great of quality but also has a great pedigree for $35 - Ninja. The black doe - Eva - I have was actually given to me from someone who rescued her from someone who had bought her for their kid and then just forgot about her in their back yard. She has a good pedigree though, multiple winners, an awesome personality and I like her head and ear carriage much better then my $35 doe Ninja.

Here are some pictures of the parents, I guess I did do a bad in picking the buck simply because of color. I know better, with my satin's its so easy to just pick the one that is the color you want, but instead you need to pick the ones with the best conformation, color comes later. I just love the color and the personality of this little guy, but you are right, if he is not good for my breeding program I shouldn't keep him.

My satins -Sage is the doe (top two pics) Buster is the buck (second two pics) they are moulting in these pics, so you can't really tell their coats or color as well as usual.
Sage- aka - Smith's Wise one
















Another Satin doe - Savannah - aka Smith's SD8








Buster - aka Ray's R9

















The lops
The buck - Alex - Coreley's Alex the great

The does - Ninja - MLD6 - sorry not the best picture









Eva - Cherish's Sugar plum 

















Just because I like to show them off
My mini rex pair
Jane - aka Smith's Nightmares








Dew- aka Cedar Bluff's Dew









Also, I didn't know that the guinea pig could get a disease from them, they don't live together all the time, I just sometimes let them run around in the grass pen together, I will stop though I sure don't want him to get sick.


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Feels deflated as knows just as much about genetics but couldn't be arsed to type it :crying:


Im so sorry!! Just seeing the genetics written down like that was impressive!! Although i must say i do find yours,Lil Miss' and Heidi's information really helpful and enjoy what you all put on here. Iv learnt a few good things in the short time iv been here!!:smile5:


Lil Miss said:


> what can i say Litle Miss Know It All was too long to put in the box!!!! (i kid :lol
> 
> I know a fair bit about most animals, but there is always much more to learn, and to be honest, unless you plan on breeding, theres no real point in confusing your self with genetics, i only bother with them because they fascinate me, and its very handy to know when you are dealing with rescue animals, especially ones that are or could be pregnant, it helps you figure out what to expect
> 
> in my opinion though any one who plans to breed anything should have a pretty damn good understanding of genetics


Well that would have been a long old name to put!!:lol:

But where do you learn everything from?? Is it just things that you experience over time? I think i could google til the cows come home and still wouldn't be no where near as knowledgeable!! Genetics fascinates me too but i wouldnt know where to start. I dont think my brain is designed for information like that!!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

We have mini's in the UK too as well as dwarf lops 

The history of the Miniature Lop originated in the Netherlands during the last 1940s when visionary Adrian de Cook had the idea of creating a miniaturised version of the large rabbit breed the French Lop. The Mini lop breed was originally developed from the cross mating of the Netherland Dwarf Rabbit, the English Lop & the French Lop.

After years of perfecting the combination of the three rabbit breeds in 1964 the Mini lop breed was accepted and standardized by the Dutch. In 1970 and then again in the 1990s Mini lops were imported to the UK and then were later introduced into Australia in 1998 from breeders in New Zealand. The Mini lop breed is now one of the most popular rabbit breeds in the world.
Our mini's aren't called Holland lops:wink:
Hollands aren't a recognised breed in the UK.

I love your satins (I won't go into your cage choice :wink 
I'm not too keen on Ninja's crown but bred to a good buck with an excellent might help balance her kits out. Although saying that she doesn't look great breeding quality to me 
Your right that your other doe has a better crown, but when you say she was rescued do you have her genetics? Do you know her parents and grandparents genetics?

I would definitely say that the buck you bred too has something other than lop in him, do you have any pics of him at all?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

zowie said:


> Im so sorry!! Just seeing the genetics written down like that was impressive!! Although i must say i do find yours,Lil Miss' and Heidi's information really helpful and enjoy what you all put on here. Iv learnt a few good things in the short time iv been here!!:smile5:
> 
> Well that would have been a long old name to put!!:lol:
> 
> But where do you learn everything from?? Is it just things that you experience over time? I think i could google til the cows come home and still wouldn't be no where near as knowledgeable!! Genetics fascinates me too but i wouldnt know where to start. I dont think my brain is designed for information like that!!


I learnt a lot of the basics at collage where I studied horse genetics. and then went on to breed welsh cob section D's, I gave that up because the market was getting saturated by grade horses and didn't want to be part of the problem.
But my thirst to learn wouldn't go away so I started looking into the genetic codes for rabbit colours and went from there


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## MrsSmith (May 24, 2011)

sorry I forgot to post the picture of Alex, he is a pure mini lop, has a pedigree and everything. I know that the Holland lop isn't a registered breed in the UK. I just read yesterday that the breed you guys have that looks like our holland lop is called a mini lop, and the breed that looks like our mini lop is called a dwarf lop over there. I could be wrong though, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Here is Alex









wanted to add I know the cages are not as large as they should be, we are slowly getting rid of the small old ones and adding in larger ones that give them a chance to get off the wire and to run and hop. They also all get time out of their cage every day, usually around an hour each to run and play in the grass in a large area.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

The baby buns are very cute! Hope you don't mind me saying but it seems a little sad that your cages are lined with mesh, don't the buns get sore paws?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

Ahhh I get you now, makes more sense.

When you say that they have a pedigree what do you mean by that?
Do you know their genetic make up? As in what colour they are genetically and what their parent/grandparents are?

So that you know what colours to breed to what colours? 
I hate to say it tho, none of your lops look breeding quality to me  (just my opinion)


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

no the mini lop over there and the mini lop over here are the SAME 

ninja doesnt look too bad, but the black doe is not worth breeding, also there is NO WAY alex is a pure mini, none at all, you would be better off neutering him and keeping him as a pet only, there is no point in breeding anything out of him.
i dont care what his "pedagree" says any one can forge a pedagree, they are only worth the paper they are written on

next issue is why on earth have you got the chickens so close to the rabbits, chickens carry cocidia which can KILL rabbits, just like rabbits carry bordatella which can kill piggies.
you NEED to keep all 3 well apart.

wire cages are also very bad for bunnies


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

I think the issues that have been raised are all valid points and the people mean well with them so sorry if they come as a shock or a little harsh.

You have a selection of great pet type mini lop rabbits. I would however look at having these neutered and not breeding from them again.

You mini rexes look a little chunky for my liking and I am concerned that they really shouldnt be kept on wire.

I also feel your 5 week old kids shouldnt be kept on the grass even for a quick clean out, this could cause them bloat and death.

In the UK the RSPCA state that the minimum hutch size should be 6ft by 2ft and at least the height of the rabbit on its tip toes. The permanently attached run should then be 6ft by 6ft. For a pair of rabbits. Rabbits unless they are purely for breeding should always be kept in at least pairs.

The RWAF is full of useful information 
this is a good video by them 
Why a hutch is not enough...inadequate rabbit accommodation - YouTube

For a reality check, think of spending all day in a room 2m by 2m, just long enough to stretch out in and stand up. You get cleaned out and given food daily. The rest of the time you wait impatiently for that person to provide you with food. You pace up and down on the wire floor, you sleep 90% of the time, you are lonely, you have limited muscles development to run and jump. This is all you have ever known


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## MrsSmith (May 24, 2011)

First of all, I want to say how much I love this forum and have great respect for all who live there. That said. Our rabbits may not have " the best" cages in the world, but that said they are about ten times better then most "breeders" around here use. Our rabbits also get to come inside almost every day where they get the run of the house and like to snuggle on the couch with us. Yes they are pets, but they are "working" pets. Our mini rex's that you call chunky have done awesome in shows. They have gotten multiple BOB and BOS at our local rabbit shows, once when up against over 25 other mini rex. The local breeders I work with have told me that Alex and Eva are much better representatives of the breed then Ninja is. They also have a much better personality, Ninja is great to pet but hates to be picked up, so we use a box to move her place to place. 
In response to "keeping chickens that close" first of all want to say me and many others I know have kept them in the same building even. With no problems what so ever. I know chickens can have cocidia but A. we have four chickens who all had the medicated feed (to prevent them from having that) and B. the chickens don't come in contact with the rabbits. The picture with the chickens in the background is deceiving anyway, there is a wall with plastic and chicken wire framed with wood between the rabbits side of the barn and the chickens side of the barn. Others I know have "barn" rabbits who run loose around the farm and sleep with the chickens with no issues what so ever, so though I appreciate you alerting me to this problem, I am not worried about the rabbits getting something from the chickens. We don't keep them that close anymore anyway, simply because we don't need to we have the facilities to keep them separate. During the summer the rabbits are in the back corner of our yard, where though there cages are small they have great ventilation, are in deep shade, they also have toys in their cages, toy balls, hanging treats etc. Which we swap around a lot to give them some variety. Our new cages we are building are 2 feet deep by four feet wide. They will have a wire floor, but will also have a carpet remnant, we have been saving them up every time they are on sale and so now have over 40 of them. The carpet piece is about 2' long by 18"wide. This piece will be changed as needed, cleaned when possible and disposed of when not.

Right now in the winter they are put in the barn (not with the chickens) but in a seperate area of the barn, where they are still in there "small" cages, but get to have the run of their half of the barn for an hour or so every day.

Our smallest cage (that we use daily) is 2'deep by 2'wide. Which is not that terribly small for the mini rex but is a bit small for the others, that is why we are building the bigger cages. The bigger cages will also have wooden sides that can be put on and taken off, depending on weather, thus allowing them to stay out year round, assuming we can deal with the snow issues anyway.

Thanks again for your suggestions. I will be showing Alex this spring, if I hear from the judge that he is not a good specimen he will be sold as a pet. and I will be having a major discussion with the breeder who I paid $40 to for him. We don't charge that much for our show quality satin's, so if I got a Pet quality buck at that price I am not going to be a happy lady.

Oh I have their pedigrees, its a piece of paper from the ARBA (American rabbit breeders association) saying who their parents are what color they are, their weights and any wins they have had. Of course sometimes you come up with colors that are unexpected. Like my miss marked himi's and in my mini rex litter I ended up with a broken black silver martin. I had to contact a ARBA judge just to figure out what color it was, its not yet a recognized color but they are working on it, so I sold him at a pet price, as it's not a color I am interested in working on.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

I'm sorry but 4ft x 2ft isn't big enough IMO
And I'll never agree on wire bottom cages, it just isn't comfortable for the rabbit. With the right husbandry there is no reason to not have solid floors IMO.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

4x2 is tiny


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

MrsSmith said:


> Our smallest cage (that we use daily) is 2'deep by 2'wide. *Which is not that terribly small for the mini rex but is a bit small for the others*, that is why we are building the bigger cages. The bigger cages will also have wooden sides that can be put on and taken off, depending on weather, thus allowing them to stay out year round, assuming we can deal with the snow issues anyway.


2x2 would be small for a blooming hamster, never mind a rabbit! It is not terribly small, I agree, it is cruelly small, neglectfully small...

4x2 is also not big enough at all, so if you have all the space you describe to keep your animals separate, I suggest you use some of that space to give your 'working' pets adequate room to live. Wire bottoms are terrible, why have a wire bottom? Theres just no need.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> 2x2 would be small for a blooming hamster, never mind a rabbit! It is not terribly small, I agree, it is cruelly small, neglectfully small...
> 
> 4x2 is also not big enough at all, so if you have all the space you describe to keep your animals separate, I suggest you use some of that space to give your 'working' pets adequate room to live. Wire bottoms are terrible, why have a wire bottom? Theres just no need.


Your right there. I think lab rabbits get more space than 2x2, and thats saying something.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I own a mini rex & he's not really that mini, a reccommended hutch is min 6x2x2ft with a run of at least 6x4ft attached
I also wouldn't keep chickens near buns, not because of what Lil Miss said as I didn't know that (thanks for the info!) but I've always thought there was a risk of spreading mites


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

They all look miserable.

Wire floored cages are cruel imo.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm not sure if its just me not knowing the breeds all that well but most of them look a little on the large side and in need of a good diet and lots of exercise.


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## MrsSmith (May 24, 2011)

Thank you all for all your help. Obviously we do things a lot different in the states. I do appreciate all your ideas and will take them all into consideration.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

MrsSmith said:


> Thank you all for all your help. Obviously we do things a lot different in the states. I do appreciate all your ideas and will take them all into consideration.


yes its a well known fact the states is well behind the UK in animal care ethics

why not make a stand, and do your best to do things correctly, make an example to everyone else over there


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

MrsSmith said:


> Thank you all for all your help. Obviously we do things a lot different in the states. I do appreciate all your ideas and will take them all into consideration.


With the best will in the world I can't imagine how you can look at a 2x2 box and think 'yeah that looks like a good place for my rabbit to live'


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## labyrinth001 (Aug 6, 2011)

I'm from the U.S. and don't think the quote "Obviously we do things a lot different in the States" is something I agree with. If you look on the U.S. Humane Society's site, it says cages with wire bottoms are not a good choice at all. They're bad for the bunny's feet  In fact, I know of a rabbit right now who is living in one, and I believe he has claw issues because of it. There's also a video on the Humane Society's site that stresses the need for very large cages (which you generally can't find in pet stores), and room to run.

Also, I can't imagine just letting your rabbits out for one hour a day is enough for them. Regardless of whether or not you're going to keep breeding them (I know nothing about breeding rabbits or how to tell what's purebred, pedigreed, etc...), if you could find a way to attach a permanent run for each of them I'm sure you'd see that they use every inch of it at different points of the day and definitely not just for an hour. I know you say that you provide them with toys and such, but unless they have enough room to use them, what's the point?

P.S. I'm not trying to sound mean. It's just sad to see an animal that loves to run and jump cooped up for most of the day with an uncomfortable place for their little paws. I hope you meant it when you said you would take everyone's comments into consideration. Everyone here cares very much about rabbits, obviously, and wants to see them live the happiest, healthiest lives possible.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

The REAL "Energizer Bunny" - YouTube

This is what a rabbit should be able to do 24/7 if it so wants. This is a sign of a happy rabbit. No way in hell can a rabbit do this in a tiny prison of 2x2.

Do you still think 2x2 is adequate space for a happy bunny?


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## nattylops (Jul 16, 2011)

Kammie said:


> The REAL "Energizer Bunny" - YouTube
> 
> This is what a rabbit should be able to do 24/7 if it so wants. This is a sign of a happy rabbit. No way in hell can a rabbit do this in a tiny prison of 2x2.
> 
> Do you still think 2x2 is adequate space for a happy bunny?


i LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEE this video, iv watch it so many times and it never gets old


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

My rabbits litter tray is bigger than 2x2


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Lovely bunnies but i really do hope for their sake you take on board what has been said, I know cristism is never an easy pill to swallow. I could never keep a bunny or any other bunny in a cage like that, I'm confused as to how anyone can think its ok?


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

zowie said:


> My rabbits litter tray is bigger than 2x2


My trio in the shed have the bottom part of an indoor cage as their litter tray, the 3ft one. Their bed is a 3ft dog kennel inside the shed, which they can come and go from as they please (usually they sleep on top of it).


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

sorry to bang on with what's already been said but the minimum requirements over here for rabbit housing is 24 hour access to a 48 square foot area with a solid floor.

Personally I would put a halt on building the new cages and re-asses what you could give them.

If you're short on space and insistent on breeding maybe choose one breed you want to stick with and have just a couple of does and bucks. That way you could give them good sized accommodation leading to happier bunnies that you'll enjoy more as pets. 

My rabbits litter tray, and indeed my mouse cage, is larger than 2x2. It makes me incredibly sad to think of any rabbit having to live in the small cage you have, and even more sad that you think it's not all that small.


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## daisyboo (May 19, 2009)

2 x 2 is disgusting simply wrong and cruel. i wish i hadnt read this thread now as i feel so sorry for your rabbits.


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