# Aggressive dogs!



## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

So I went to Sefton Park today with Dantè, we met a few lovely dogs including a Greyhound named Onion!

We then headed towards a couple who were chatting to a lady, they had a Cairn Terrier with them and the Cairn spotted us and ran straight towards us. The man then panicked screaming his dogs name "Hamish, Hamish" I then said "it's ok Dantè is only young" and the man and woman then shouted "no ours is not!?" (Erm.... Have it on a blooming lead then)

No sooner they said that, the dog repeatedly tried to bite Dantès legs and feet, poor Dantè was hopping in the air crying out and trying to get away. I screamed at the man to get his dog which he did and he could not have been more sorry, however I just made it clear to him that if it was Dantè whom had initiated it, then they would be quick to say something about my Dantè !!

Upon me walking away, he made a comment to a passer - by who could see the man was flustered saying "oh he doesn't like big dogs ha ha" I turned around and glared at him and he then scurried off. A lovely lady who witnessed it came over to check if Dantè and myself were ok as i was red with anger lol! She made a big fuss of Dantè which was lovely!

I must admit I don't mind little dogs I just don't appreciate people letting their little dogs run over when they clearly have issues for all he knew Dantè could have been reactive !


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Glad he was OK.

Some people are just idiots


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Thread title is a little misleading as it assumes you're tarring all little dogs as aggressive?

Glad Dante was ok however.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

The breed or size of the other dog is irrelevant. The problem is with the owners.

Glad your dog is ok though.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Not sure the relevance of the size of the dog except a bigger dog could have caused more damage. Whereabouts are you - I see your dog has cropped ears.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi everybody, thank you for your replies!

I will change the title I do apologise for the misleading title, I am also a small dog owner myself. 

I am in the UK Blitz. Dantè is an import from Serbia x


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi Admin, Is there a possibility you could change this thread to a more suitable title. Was not intending to offend anybody x

@simplysardonic


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

In fairness...at least the owner came and got his dog, and no damage was done.
Everyone can have a lapse in concentration, and most will try to brush off embarrassment with a jovial comment 

I'd probably recommend that you don't get so het up (unless they are a repeat offender) because you will find your walks very stressful after a while...If you are in a public place (especially in the holidays) then you will most likely end up with at least one dog making a nuisance of themselves. 
My walks became much less stressful once I started to just shrug and walk on lol


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi Stormy Thai.

I am usually not a confrontational person however I just seen the situation as if your small dog is not well behaved around others, why risk your dog potentially getting injured by letting it approach other dogs?

When walking away i could still hear his dog barking at others! X


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

You do seem to be very unlucky on your walks with dogs and people attacking your Dobie.

The size of the dog is irrelevant.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Good to hear your Dog is ok and did his best to avoid the other dog.
I think sometimes the comments owners make are often to cover their embarrassment at a situation they didn't handle very well.

Ludo loves big dogs - the bigger the better the game in his opinion.
It only takes a moments lapse in my concentration and he's trying to instigate a game of chase which tends to give the big dog owner a heart attack when their 50kg dog responds exactly as Ludo wanted and chases after 5kg Ludo!
I do keep on lead in busier places and use lots of yummy treats in our "safe" off lead areas but their have been occasions where I have got it wrong I must admit.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Sweety said:


> You do seem to be very unlucky on your walks with dogs and people attacking your Dobie.
> 
> The size of the dog is irrelevant.


Hi yes, unfortunately people spot Dantè and are so quick to judge him due to his appearance. He is not let off lead in busy areas as he still has to improve on his recall. I am forever having people dragging their children and other dogs away from him even when Dantè isn't paying attention to them. I had a little boy approach us today and the lady turned around and screamed hysterically at her son to "get away from THAT dog?" I walked away.

And I have asked an admin if they could change the thread title as stated above, as I was not intending to offend anybody by the title.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I've changed the title to just 'Aggressive dogs'.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> I've changed the title to just 'Aggressive dogs'.


Thank you x


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> In fairness...at least the owner came and got his dog, and no damage was done.
> Everyone can have a lapse in concentration, and most will try to brush off embarrassment with a jovial comment
> 
> I'd probably recommend that you don't get so het up (unless they are a repeat offender) because you will find your walks very stressful after a while...If you are in a public place (especially in the holidays) then you will most likely end up with at least one dog making a nuisance of themselves.
> My walks became much less stressful once I started to just shrug and walk on lol


This!

As you say, at least the owner cared, plenty don't bother. I'm generally not bothered if the owner comes and gets the dog and/or apologies, repeat offenders do bother me though. I was out with Bo and Tilly today and a big old GSD charged over barking and growling, the owner got the dog quickly and apologised. I said I had a GSD myself and know what gobshites they can be, and she looked totally relieved!

The term "aggressive dog" is thrown around way too much for my liking and seriously aggressive dogs just aren't that common. Lot's pushy little buggers, gobshites, cocky gits and bullies about, but genuinely aggressive dogs that just want to attack any dog that moves? no, not really.

I find you can prevent or at least control this sort of thing much easier if you have your dog on lead and have them next to you or behind you. And remember that one day when your dog matures and has his mature adult temperament it's unlikely he'll tolerant any 'roughing up' or real rudeness from other dogs, and rather than avoid or run off he'll retaliate. So yeah, I always err on the side of caution, and it's why I generally don't allow mine to meet many other dogs. It's not worth the bother.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

labradrk said:


> This!
> 
> As you say, at least the owner cared, plenty don't bother. I'm generally not bothered if the owner comes and gets the dog and/or apologies, repeat offenders do bother me though. I was out with Bo and Tilly today and a big old GSD charged over barking and growling, the owner got the dog quickly and apologised. I said I had a GSD myself and know what gobshites they can be, and she looked totally relieved!
> 
> ...


Hi,

I thinking maybe I did overreact, however it was just in the heat of the moment you see. Dantè was actually on a lead at the time. They were sniffing each other at first and it was when the owner told me that his dog was not good with others, that I then started to walk away and his little dog pounced.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi,
> 
> I thinking maybe I did overreact, however it was just in the heat of the moment you see. Dantè was actually on a lead at the time. They were sniffing each other at first and it was when the owner told me that his dog was not good with others, that I then started to walk away and his little dog pounced.


Fair enough. The owner should have been more mindful in that case if it "doesn't like big dogs".


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi yes, unfortunately people spot Dantè and are so quick to judge him due to his appearance. He is not let off lead in busy areas as he still has to improve on his recall. I am forever having people dragging their children and other dogs away from him even when Dantè isn't paying attention to them. I had a little boy approach us today and the lady turned around and screamed hysterically at her son to "get away from THAT dog?" I walked away.
> 
> And I have asked an admin if they could change the thread title as stated above, as I was not intending to offend anybody by the title.


To be fair, I've heard parents scream "get away from that dog" when it's been other breeds, and quite rightly so. Parents should be teaching their children not to approach ANY dog they don't know. I don't think it has anything to do with your dog being a dobe, we had one ourselves and never once received any hostility towards her for being a doberman


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think its more appropriate to moan about the idiot owners then the aggressive dogs....after all its the owners who cause the problems! Why on earth let your dog off lead around others if you know its going to attack them!?:Banghead
Frankly 3 of my little dogs dont like big dogs at all. However 2 of them will happily avoid them and the one who may bite isnt allowed off lead (and has a snazzy vest to tell people to keep way as well!).

The size is def immaterial though. I can remember coming across a guy in a park with a pack of 5 Dobies and Dobie crosses which could of been quite frightening. However they were wonderfully behaved and the owner had complete control. In fact as we were walking the same way and they were ignoring my lot we turned into a pack of 8 and even my littlest Chihuahua (who is normally terrified of other dogs) was quite happy!
Frankly I dont care if its a teeny fluffy Disney dog or a giant slavering hellbeast as long as it has decent doggy manners and a sensible owner!


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

labradrk said:


> And remember that one day when your dog matures and has his mature adult temperament it's unlikely he'll tolerant any 'roughing up' or real rudeness from other dogs, and rather than avoid or run off he'll retaliate.


Yup. Was going to post this, and you beat me to it  Thanks for saving me the typing.

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming what did you end up using for the pulling issue?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> We then headed towards a couple who were chatting to a lady, they had a Cairn Terrier with them and the Cairn spotted us and ran straight towards us. The man then panicked screaming his dogs name "Hamish, Hamish" I then said "it's ok Dantè is only young" and the man and woman then shouted "no ours is not!?" (Erm.... Have it on a blooming lead then)
> 
> No sooner they said that, the dog repeatedly tried to bite Dantès legs and feet, poor Dantè was hopping in the air crying out and trying to get away. I screamed at the man to get his dog which he did and he could not have been more sorry, however I just made it clear to him that if it was Dantè whom had initiated it, then they would be quick to say something about my Dantè !!
> 
> ...


Oh dear you do seem to have a lot of high arousal run ins with people don't you? What was the extent of the wounds incurred on his feet and legs?

I am afraid if you have certain types of dogs you may get certain reactions from other people.

I have a GSD and a BSD and over the 12 years I have had the GSD I am used to people crossing roads and being afraid of him.

You have a Dobermann with cropped ears which will no doubt cause the same reaction in others, we just have to suck it up.

If I have dogs which come over they get poked with my Nordic Walking Pole, works for me.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I sometimes think small dogs see large dogs as a challange, it's normally small dogs that will bark and bounce round on or off their lead when they see Dillon. Thankfully his has started to ignore them or just looks at them in disgust.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming what did you end up using for the pulling issue?[/QUOTE]

Hi Ouesi I went to a local trainer who taught him some loose leash walking he also gave me a half check for him to wear whilst on walks and as soon as he pulls he hears the noise of the rings on the collar and will drop back.



smokeybear said:


> Oh dear you do seem to have a lot of high arousal run ins with people don't you? What was the extent of the wounds incurred on his feet and legs?
> 
> I am afraid if you have certain types of dogs you may get certain reactions from other people.
> 
> ...


j

Hi Smokey Bear,

Fortunately he did not sustain any wounds.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

When we had our staffie (never walked off leash as she was uncomfortable with other dogs having been attacked by two when she was young), I used to get very angry at the number of owners of small dogs (especially jack Brussels for some reason) who seems to think that their dog was fantastic because it "would take anything on". We used to have to hold Grace back because although she was okay if other dogs ignored her, there was no way she'd tolerate being attacked. One idiot was actually laughing as I shouted to get hold of his dog - out wasn't until I threatened to let go of the lead that he did something about it. Yes - I could have muzzled her, but why should I? She wasn't a bad dog, she was on leash, so why should I prevent her from defending herself? 

At least the dog that attacked yours had a responsible owner, but I absolutely agree with you that it should have been on a lead if it was aggressive. If your Dante had responded in kind he could have killed it - then what would have been their response?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

None of us are perfect, or have perfect dogs and I certainly do try and give people the benefit of the doubt.

I can usually tell when an owner has a momentary (and occasional?) lapse of concentration and even assist them if I can and they need some help getting their dog back.

Unfortunately, there are so many occasions when owners clearly (even habitually) allow this behaviour. I do find also that *some* owners of little dogs do think their size excuses their behaviour.

I tend now to avoid loose dogs for the most part and head off in the opposite direction.

I'm still surprised though at the number of owners of dogs that cross a field the size of 2+ football fields to mug my dog who expect me to stand still and wait while they come and retrieve their dog 

I find "heading" for the nearest road galvanizes them into a quick sprint! 

I also now carry either a hiking pole or one of a number of long sticks that have been strategically left behind a tree anywhere that I might encounter any loose dogs.

Waving one of them about also has the desired effect! 

It's true that the term "aggressive" is used for dogs that are actually just being rude or gobby and have no intention of aggression, however, under Dog Law that could still be a reason to cause fear, especially if they are running at someone and their dog (particularly if on leash).

If someone has such a dog they should at least manage it.

The reaction of the dog being approached could effect the outcome of the interaction - just because the nuisance dog hasn't ended up causing a full scale fight before doesn't mean it never will.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming what did you end up using for the pulling issue?


Hi Ouesi I went to a local trainer who taught him some loose leash walking he also gave me a half check for him to wear whilst on walks and as soon as he pulls he hears the noise of the rings on the collar and will drop back.

j

Hi Smokey Bear,

Fortunately he did not sustain any wounds.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I was thinking you had gone with the prong since your dog seems to wear bandanas a lot 

The reason I ask, 
1) You have a cropped, docked doberman. Add in a prong collar and yup you're going to get reactions. As mentioned, suck it up buttercup. You chose the breed, you chose the cropped, you deal with the end result. And ideally you deal with it in a manner that DE escalates the situation. You have a doberman, do you really want him to learn that interactions with others are likely to quickly escalate?

2) Prong collars tend to agitate dogs. (Again, an escalation vs. de-escalation.) Right now your dog is a juvenile. He has not matured mentally or socially. Once he does though, he's not going to be as tolerant to agitated encounters with others, and that prong is just going to make him more agitated than not.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Hi Ouesi I went to a local trainer who taught him some loose leash walking he also gave me a half check for him to wear whilst on walks and as soon as he pulls he hears the noise of the rings on the collar and will drop back.
> 
> j
> 
> ...


Oh, I was thinking you had gone with the prong since your dog seems to wear bandanas a lot 

The reason I ask,
1) You have a cropped, docked doberman. Add in a prong collar and yup you're going to get reactions. As mentioned, suck it up buttercup. You chose the breed, you chose the cropped, you deal with the end result. And ideally you deal with it in a manner that DE escalates the situation. You have a doberman, do you really want him to learn that interactions with others are likely to quickly escalate?

2) Prong collars tend to agitate dogs. (Again, an escalation vs. de-escalation.) Right now your dog is a juvenile. He has not matured mentally or socially. Once he does though, he's not going to be as tolerant to agitated encounters with others, and that prong is just going to make him more agitated than not.[/QUOTE]

A prong?? Sorry where about in my post does it say that I use a prong? I have never and will never use such a dreadful tool. I said that I am using a "half-check" otherwise known as a Martingale collar I have attached an image of one. Him being cropped is not a reason for dogs to approach and try to bite him? He also wears bandanas as my other dogs do and I love them wearing the bandanas sorry what has a bandana got to do with a prong???


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

A half check/Martingale NOT a prong


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

lostbear said:


> I used to get very angry at the number of owners of small dogs (especially jack Brussels for some reason) who seems to think that their dog was fantastic because it "would take anything on".


I work with a guy just like that, he finds it highly amusing that his JRT snarls, growls & chases big dogs (not in a playful way)! Weird.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> * I do find also that some owners of little dogs do think their size excuses their behaviour.*


I find that a lot, they seem think bad behaviour is cute and funny as their little treasure tries at attack your dog or is running all over peoples gardens pooing and weeing all over the place on those blasted flexi leads. Some people should learn that a small dog should be trained to walk on a normal lead the same as large dogs.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Hi Ouesi I went to a local trainer who taught him some loose leash walking he also gave me a half check for him to wear whilst on walks and as soon as he pulls he hears the noise of the rings on the collar and will drop back.


@ouesi can I ask were about in the above paragraph do you see the word "prong" mentioned?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> A half check/Martingale NOT a prong


We have a half check for Dillon as well, we also use a Dogmatic head collar and a training lead attached to both collars.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> If I have dogs which come over they get poked with my Nordic Walking Pole, works for me.


Sounds good....as long as you dont have an owner to contend with as well! I was once threatened with physical violence by a huge 6ft plus bloke and his mates coz I waved my umbrella in front of his standard poodle which was repeatedly chasing my Chi (who was screaming, shaking and practically hysterical with fear).

I still maintain its 50/50 when it comes to small dogs vs big dogs. For every snappy, little ankle biter whose owner thinks its funny for taking on the 'big, scary dog' there will be a big, obnoxious bully whose owner thinks its cute that their dog is 'playing with' the little dog who is running in fear.
Most of us only see one side of the equation!


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

@Happy Paws

I am also looking at getting a dogmatic I found a lovely blue one online which I may order soon. I used to have a black halti but unfortunately people were mistaking the halti for a muzzle. I am thinking this blue dogmatic will hopefully look more appealing and not so much like a muzzle.

Dillon is stunning X


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Sounds good....as long as you dont have an owner to contend with as well! I was once threatened with physical violence by a huge 6ft plus bloke and his mates coz I waved my umbrella in front of his standard poodle which was repeatedly chasing my Chi (who was screaming, shaking and practically hysterical with fear).
> 
> I still maintain its 50/50 when it comes to small dogs vs big dogs. For every snappy, little ankle biter whose owner thinks its funny for taking on the 'big, scary dog' there will be a big, obnoxious bully whose owner thinks its cute that their dog is 'playing with' the little dog who is running in fear.
> Most of us only see one side of the equation!


I have had to contend with moronic bullies with all sorts of dogs and I do not differentiate between size of dogs; such idiots may have small, medium or large dogs, it is irrelevant; if they are out of control then they will be prodded away, if they are intent on damaging my dogs they get thwacked.

I would prefer to thwack the owners however that would be a police matter; protecting my own dogs is something I am legally entitled to do


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I have had to contend with moronic bullies with all sorts of dogs and I do not differentiate between size of dogs; such idiots may have small, medium or large dogs, it is irrelevant; if they are out of control then they will be prodded away, if they are intent on damaging my dogs they get thwacked.
> 
> I would prefer to thwack the owners however that would be a police matter; protecting my own dogs is something I am legally entitled to do


What if a clueless, but otherwise non threatening, puppy approached? I'd hope you wouldn't use the same technique.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> What if a clueless, but otherwise non threatening, puppy approached? I'd hope you wouldn't use the same technique.


I am not sure why you believe that prodding a clueless puppy away from my dogs is a technique that should not be used? What would you suggest is done instead? If I do not take control of the situation it is likely that my dogs will eventually take matters into their own hands which I do not want them to do.

If the owner will not protect their puppy I have to, or do you suggest I do nothing?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I could of course permit my dog(s) to be harrassed as per this video.

I could stand back and permit my dogs to chastise the dog themselves as per this video

However I prefer to step in myself which is for me the responsible action to take.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I am not sure why you believe that prodding a clueless puppy away from my dogs is a technique that should not be used? What would you suggest is done instead? If I do not take control of the situation it is likely that my dogs will eventually take matters into their own hands which I do not want them to do.
> 
> If the owner will not protect their puppy I have to, or do you suggest I do nothing?


Because I'd expect a 'prod' could be more harmful to a small puppy. Besides which as someone supposedly clued up on dog body language & training I would have thought you could deal with it non confrontationally. Especially in regards to a puppy who is not going to cause a fight scene.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Because I'd expect a 'prod' could be more harmful to a small puppy. Besides which as someone supposedly clued up on dog body language & training I would have thought you could deal with it non confrontationally. Especially in regards to a puppy who is not going to cause a fight scene.


Why on EARTH would a "prod" be harmful to a small puppy?

Do puppies not get "prodded" by other dogs, by their owners in all sorts of situations?

Will it break?

What on EARTH is confrontational about this??????????????

I repeat, what would YOU do that you believe is non confrontational and "better" for the puppy and your dogs?


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> I could of course permit my dog(s) to be harrassed as per this video.
> 
> I could stand back and permit my dogs to chastise the dog themselves as per this video
> 
> However I prefer to step in myself which is for me the responsible action to take.


What a terrific video example! Thank you for the share!

OH were out walking in town the other day (sans dogs) and a very young puppy was out playing in the font yard with the children of the house, no adults about. The puppy saw us and bee lined it towards us - out in to the street! I most certainly did not want to reward the puppy for that behavior with any kind of positive attention, but kids were watching, and I didn't want to scare them either, so I stomped my foot as the puppy and tried to shoo him off. No go. He kept coming, oblivious to the kids calling him. So I had to grab him as neutrally as possible and march him back to his yard. He still thought it was great to get attention from me though 
But yes, that would have been a case of prodding him back to his yard with a good walking pole. I'd rather he have a bad experience in the street with me than with a vehicle...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I could have course put a lead on a puppy which will then try to throttle itself jumping about and still means my dogs may be annoyed by this critter; not sure if that is less "confrontational" to the dog or less harmful to the puppy?

So prodding them with a pole to increase the distance between them and my dogs has, over several decades, proved to be the most effective method of controlling the situation IME


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Why on EARTH would a "prod" be harmful to a small puppy?
> 
> Do puppies not get "prodded" by other dogs, by their owners in all sorts of situations?
> 
> ...


Pups don't exactly don't stand still for you to 'prod'. I'd be worried about poking eyes & jabbing to hard. It's not confrontational? Okkkk then. I'd consider it quite confrontational myself. Just as I would if someone approached me jabbing a stick at me.

I'd deal with it as I do all loose dog encounters. Moving along at a quick pace, choosing walking spots I'm less inclined to meet off lead dogs and/or popping my youngest dog into a sit/stay behind me whilst I interjected the puppy  I have never had the need yet to use a stick or any other forceful means to keep a dog at bay. But obviously that is what you've found works for you. I just personally find it OTT and dramatic in the case of non threatening dogs.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Pups don't exactly don't stand still for you to 'prod'. I'd be worried about poking eyes & jabbing to hard. It's not confrontational? Okkkk then. I'd consider it quite confrontational myself. Just as I would if someone approached me jabbing a stick at me.
> 
> I'd deal with it as I do all loose dog encounters. Moving along at a quick pace, choosing walking spots I'm less inclined to meet off lead dogs and/or popping my youngest dog into a sit/stay behind me whilst I interjected the puppy  I have never had the need yet to use a stick or any other forceful means to keep a dog at bay. But obviously that is what you've found works for you. I just personally find it OTT and dramatic in the case of non threatening dogs.


Nowhere did I say I "jabbed" a dog! 

Nowhere did I say I was "forceful" (in the prodding situation)

That is what you have inferred. And like those owners of such dogs which require managing by others, I have no control of how you choose to interpret my posts; that is entirely up to you and of course your own personal agenda. 

It is neither OTT nor dramatic.

It is so wonderful that you can choose your walking spots where you are less inclined to meet off lead dogs, however as I travel all over the UK I often have to exercise my dogs in areas which I would not necessarily choose to if I was based in only one location. 

That is marvellous

As always there are many roads to Rome and one is not necessarily "better" than another; it depends on the individual, the environment, one's skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience.

In this sort of situation long experience has meant that I have selected the most effective and least damaging option at my disposal............. IME

But thank you so much for sharing


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You yourself have had to adopt the methods of controlling your own dogs which you find the most effective have you not? 

_Missy would dodge around your legs, half choke herself to death straining to see and it was awkward for me to maintain control with my hands all over the place behind me. I know some people teach their dog to go behind them, but I never managed it  A few years ago I discovered a much easier and safer way of dealing with any potential problems - picking her up! She is so much better these days anyway as I guess old age has mellowed her somewhat, but if I do have to pass an off lead dog on a path for example, up she comes, and we pass soundly.
_
This method would not work for me of course with a 40kg GSD and of course not necessary in my case, but I appreciate that many, like you, are unable to teach some things.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Maybe you could enlighten us to your stick prodding action then  A single prod or poke surely doesn't work for determined dogs which would surely mean you increase the amount of prods & level of force...otherwise what's the point? Although perhaps you've never truly needed to use it to it's full effect. 

Most normal dog owners/walkers would see it as OTT and dramatic as would I.

I'm glad my insight is welcomed 

...and here comes the stalking of previous posts to help prove your point :Hilarious

My next post was actually going to be about that so you saved me the bother 

But I'm off out now for my Birthday, so whatever questions/statements you want answers to will have to wait.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Maybe you could enlighten us to your stick prodding action then  A single prod or poke surely doesn't work for determined dogs which would surely mean you increase the amount of prods & level of force...otherwise what's the point? Although perhaps you've never truly needed to use it to it's full effect.
> 
> Most normal dog owners/walkers would see it as OTT and dramatic as would I.
> 
> ...


I love it, me being YOUR stalker! ROFLMAO

I wonder if I stalk you in the Working Trials arena too................. ROFLMAO even more.

Thank you for the best laugh I have had this week..................................... Screenwash moment!

I appreciate you do not understand how this might be used, really I do.  But it is ok


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I love it, me being YOUR stalker! ROFLMAO
> 
> I wonder if I stalk you in the Working Trials arena too................. ROFLMAO even more.
> 
> ...


Glad I could give you a laugh 

Why my accomplishments, or training, would be of any interest to you in the first place I'm not sure of. Perhaps stalking me _is_ of particular importance


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> I could of course permit my dog(s) to be harrassed as per this video.
> 
> I could stand back and permit my dogs to chastise the dog themselves as per this video
> 
> However I prefer to step in myself which is for me the responsible action to take.


I cant fault the behaviour of the GSD at all. She did well to put up with that for as long as she did.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dear God this is one of the reasons I seriously doubt I will bother to have dogs again in the future. When did we all become so INTOLERANT?

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming for future reference

The man then panicked screaming his dogs name "Hamish, Hamish" I then said *"it's ok Dantè is only young" *

I wouldn't tell people its OK your dog is only young or your dog is friendly. The owner might have acted faster and stopped his dog coming over in the first place if you hadn't said that.

In more than 30 years of dog ownership I have never felt the need to carry an implement to prod other people's dogs with and I've never had a dog of mine prodded with a stick either. If someone did that to a pup of mine I'm afraid that stick would be out of their hands and rammed up their backsides in record time. Happy Christmas.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> @ouesi can I ask were about in the above paragraph do you see the word "prong" mentioned?


I'm not sure why you think not mentioning a prong means you don't use one?
I'm just sharing information about prongs and their effect on the dog. If that doesn't apply to you feel free to ignore it.
If it does, know I don't judge anyone for their choice of training tool, however, I do think those choices should be informed ones.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I'm not sure why you think not mentioning a prong means you don't use one?
> I'm just sharing information about prongs and their effect on the dog. If that doesn't apply to you feel free to ignore it.
> If it does, know I don't judge anyone for their choice of training tool, however, I do think those choices should be informed ones.


I apologise if I have misinterpreted this however it appeared to me that you assumed I was using a prong collar on Dantè


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

So, this little dog came over and 'attacked' your Doberman, the owner tried to recall his dog but you announced it was "Alright" as Dante is only young?

I think some have a very skewed idea of what constitutes an attack.

I too send any dogs which approach mine packing and yes, even puppies.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Sweety said:


> So, this little dog came over and 'attacked' your Doberman, the owner tried to recall his dog but you announced it was "Alright" as Dante is only young?
> 
> I think some have a very skewed idea of what constitutes an attack.
> 
> I too send any dogs which approach mine packing and yes, even puppies.


This dog was sniffing Dantè at first and the owner started screaming the dogs name i then stated that Dante was only young assuming that the man was panicking because I had a dobermann. It was then when the man said no its not your dog it's mine he is not good with other dogs no sooner he said that his dog had a go


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

And nope he wasn't "attacked" the cairn was trying to get bites in but due to Dantè jumping in the air he luckily missed him.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sweety said:


> I too send any dogs which approach mine packing and yes, even puppies.


me too. In fact large breed puppies are probably what me and my dogs hate the most. Often they have no clue about how to behave and dont pick up on social clues which can be pretty dangerous if you have very small dogs.



Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> And nope he wasn't "attacked" the cairn was trying to get bites in but due to Dantè jumping in the air he luckily missed him.


It doesnt sound like there was much you could of done in this situation TBH. It was down to the other owner to control his dog, esp as he already knew it was likely to cause problems.
However....I would be working extra hard to make sure that Dante is as well behaved and socialized as possible. It isnt fair but he is a breed that many people have prejudices about and chances are he will get blamed for situations due to this.

Not that you can win againest some of the crazy weirdos out there. I once had a woman scream at me to keep my 'vicious' dog away whilst she scooped hers up to keep it safe....funny thing is Im pretty sure that her 'precious, little' Chihuahua was slighty bigger then my 'giant, scary' Chihuahua!LOL:Hilarious (although TBF mine might have been rolling in poop so maybe she had a point):Bag


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think if owners were not so precious about their dogs there would be a lot less trouble. Being fended off with a walking stick sounds ideal and would hopefully teach a lot of dogs that strangers and their dogs are not their best friends. I would LOVE someone to repel Toffee in no uncertain terms. It would make my walks in busy areas so much easier. Of course I would have had to let her disobey me in the first place - but sadly that does happen at times. It is a bit like jumping up, it is far easier for the person being jumped up on to teach the dog it is a bad idea, the owner is in the wrong place for correction.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I apologise if I have misinterpreted this however it appeared to me that you assumed I was using a prong collar on Dantè


I'm not making any assumptions 



Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> And nope he wasn't "attacked" the cairn was trying to get bites in but due to Dantè jumping in the air he luckily missed him.


FWIW, dogs don't generally "try" to get bites in. They either intend to bite and do, or don't intend to bite and don't.
If you re-watch that great video @smokeybear posted, that's a good example of a dog who has no intention of doing harm. The GSD's jaw was going as if she was biting, but she very purposefully did not make contact with her teeth. 
The carin may well have been air snapping at your dobe, it's very unlikely that your dog, any dog is able to dodge a real bite by jumping about. If a dog is intent on doing harm, they don't miss.

Honestly it sounds like you had an unfortunate encounter - again. If I were you, I'd ensure Dante has a lot of uneventful walks or he's going to start anticipating issues on walks and then you're really going to have your hands full. 
Since you're working with a trainer, perhaps they have some well behaved dogs he can "accidentally" meet on walks to remind him that not all encounters are going to be altercations?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Dear God this is one of the reasons I seriously doubt I will bother to have dogs again in the future. When did we all become so INTOLERANT?
> 
> @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming for future reference
> 
> ...


Finally! Couldn't have said it better myself. I think some people have become far to precious about their dogs and interacting with others and whilst I get the frustration of dogs bothering you, a puppy approaching for example should not result in such measures IMO and is OTT.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Dear God this is one of the reasons I seriously doubt I will bother to have dogs again in the future. When did we all become so INTOLERANT?
> 
> @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming for future reference
> 
> ...


If I had had a stout stick with me the day that dog stalked up to us (me, Bates and Breez) and was wholly undeterred by my big bad primate display, I most certainly would have used it. He meant harm. Dogs don't approach in stalking mode, head down, dead-set eyes and not making any noise for shits and giggles. That, and my dogs know the difference between a display and the real thing, and they were telling me this was the real thing.

If you haven't had to use force, consider yourself lucky. I have, and it sucks.

The only good thing that has come out of my experiences dealing with loose dogs who mean harm, is that it all gets filed away in the "what not to do next time" file in my head, so the more likely I am to be able to avoid those situations all together these days.

Though the irony of you chiding members for being intolerant while in the next breath threatening to ram sticks up people's backsides did give me a good giggle


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> I could of course permit my dog(s) to be harrassed as per this video.
> 
> I could stand back and permit my dogs to chastise the dog themselves as per this video
> 
> However I prefer to step in myself which is for me the responsible action to take.


Jeez, what an annoying dog, that GSD did well to put up with it as long as it did.

I had a situation the other day whereby a dog that is known not to be friendly was off lead playing with it's ball. It's owner had unfortunately fallen into the trap of thinking that because his dog was playing it would ignore other dogs but this particular day proved him wrong. It ran up to my dogs (whom were all right by my side as we were waiting for this dog to leave) and went straight in behind Flynn and bit his bum. Poor Flynn didnt even know it was there so he whirled round in surprise and this springer realised he was much bigger than it and so made Jessie, who is smaller, it's next target. Again it came in behind her and bit her back leg but she will fight back so I took matters into my own hands as i'd had enough of this dogs bad behaviour. I got rid of it just by shouting and walking towards it. I did have a rant about it on FB and I was more annoyed because the owner knows his dog isnt friendly but I shall just make a mental note for next time, and add it to the list of dogs to avoid, or be prepared to tackle if they approach.

My dogs werent injured and this dog was acting out of fear if anything, it had no intentions of starting a fight, it just wanted to take mine by surprise with a sneaky bite before backing off and preparing to flee. I dont quite know why it felt threatened by mine as they werent paying it any heed and were at what I thought was a safe distance. I just chalk it up to experience and assume that every dog is going to be unfriendly and that we we generally keep ourselves safe.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

TBH being prodded with a stick really isn't the worst thing that can happen to a dog, better that being on the receiving end of the dogs space it was invading teeth, and/or having anything escalate. I'm sure no one is suggesting they hit a dog as a matter of course, but rather use it is a barrier. 

Juno totally uncharacteristically bolted across to another dog a couple of weeks back, rather mortifying given that it's something I hate! she's not done that before, luckily it was an off lead dog, she sniffed and came bolting back, no harm done. But had the dog been on a lead, I certainly wouldn't get huffy if the owner had told her to bugger off, after all she was totally rude running up like that!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The dog that piled into Isla a few months ago ended up having itself kicked several times by my husband, it was the only thing that stopped its attack. It's owner was absolutely useless and seemed more bothered that his dog had got off the lead then what it was actually up to.

Neither of us want to kick a dog at all, but if it's the only way to get it off your dog, then so be it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

'Prodding' a dog that is threatening in its approach and/or your own dog has issues is completely different though and is why I used the example of a puppy approaching instead, a totally non threatening dog.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> 'Prodding' a dog that is threatening in its approach and/or your own dog has issues is completely different though and is why I used the example of a puppy approaching instead, a totally non threatening dog.


To me, the fact that a puppy is not threatening is immaterial.

If a pup runs at Rosie, she will ignore it for a short while, then she'll bite it.

I don't particularly want a pup to be bitten, nor do I want Rudi, who is young, to see and possibly imitate that behaviour, so I'll intervene.

If I have to give a pup a prod with a stick or even a shove with my foot, that is what I'll do.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

[


Sweety said:


> To me, the fact that a puppy is not threatening is immaterial.
> 
> If a pup runs at Rosie, she will ignore it for a short while, then she'll bite it.
> 
> ...


Which would fall into the category of your own dog having issues and you preventing your dog from reacting. Again a bit different. I'd not expect a normally sociable and well mannered dog to lose its head at an approaching puppy and hence there being no reason for me to physically stop the puppy approaching. We'd just continue walking, maybe allow a quick sniff, and that would be that.

If Missy was with me, I'd pick her up which is the advantage to having small dogs.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> [
> 
> Which would fall into the category of your own dog having issues and you preventing your dog from reacting. Again a bit different. I'd not expect a normally sociable and well mannered dog to lose its head at an approaching puppy and hence there being no reason for me to physically stop the puppy approaching. We'd just continue walking, maybe allow a quick sniff, and that would be that.
> 
> If Missy was with me, I'd pick her up which is the advantage to having small dogs.


Rosie is very well mannered indeed - she just objects to other dogs which aren't.

Rosie will ignore other dogs, give them a wide berth, and I've seen her step off a path to allow another dog to pass.

The fact that she dislikes other dogs barging into her space and ignoring warning signals to back off doesn't amount to her having issues, in my opinion.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Though the irony of you chiding members for being intolerant while in the next breath threatening to ram sticks up people's backsides did give me a good giggle


This always makes me laugh.

And of course prodding a dog out of the way has absolutely NOTHING to do with being intolerant.

But EVERYTHING to do with keeping all parties safe and avoiding a bad experience for ALL.

I certainly have not witnessed any puppy which I have prodded being in pain, injured or having post traumatic prodding disorder.

However of course if I JABBED it that could be the case. 

My youngest dog has spent three months in a crate followed by three months of lead only exercise convalescing from a very serious injury.

Now of course I could be extremely tolerant of any dog coming anywhere near her and jumping on her and potentially causing her to make sudden movement and thus putting back her recovery perhaps irrevocably, or I could choose to make sure that did not happen.

Unfortunately I have yet to walk down any road, lane, cul de sac byway, footpath, bridleway, street where there are absolutely NO dogs which means I have nothing to worry about

So I am afraid if it comes to a choice between the health and safety of MY dog versus the welfare of another, I make no apologies on siding with that of my own companion.

Intolerant? Hmmmm or just keeping my dog safe.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> Which would fall into the category of your own dog having issues and you preventing your dog from reacting.


I'll be the first to call Bates a jerkface because he is one, but I don't think it classifies as a dog having "issues" if they object to obnoxious puppy behavior and respond with an appropriate correction. Bates will correct much like the GSD in the video did, except he roars with an open mouth and doesn't teeth clack. But it's essentially the same message and if preceded with a proper warning, perfectly normal, and effective way to teach a pup manners.

Where I have an issue is one, it's not my dog's job to teach random puppies manners. He did have to teach Breez manners, with our help, but dogs he doesn't live with are not his responsibility. And two, most owners unsurprisingly don't take kindly to an 80 pound bull-breed looking dog roaring at their ickle puppy. So yup, even non threatening puppies get sent packing. By me 

A helpful side-effect of me shooing off approaching dogs is that through repetition, my dogs have learned to trust me to handle dog situations and thus, they don't get on-guard and worried that they might have to. I don't think it's a coincidence that even my jerkface dog can be in the midst of all sorts of dogs and stay relaxed about it.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I think the problem with puppies is that although they arent likely to be aggressive, they havent really learnt any canine etiquette and usually dont see any warning signals. It's rare indeed that we've come across any pups or youngsters whom have backed off at a growl or show of the teeth (I was impressed with a pair of Spinoni who came running up to Flynn, right in his face. Just a low warning grumble from him had them both lowering their bodies and slinking away, and they ignored him from then on). Of course, many dogs then have to escalate their behaviour to get the message across and it's the escalation that many of us want to avoid in our dogs, so it really doesnt matter if the dog is 4 months old or 4 years old IMO.

(I will add that the dogs in the photos are owned by friends whom we were walking with so different situation but strange puppies are a different matter).

Flynn telling off a pestering Pennie:


Jessie being pestered by a pup and giving it a firm telling off:


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Rosie is very well mannered indeed - she just objects to other dogs which aren't.
> 
> Rosie will ignore other dogs, give them a wide berth, and I've seen her step off a path to allow another dog to pass.
> 
> The fact that she dislikes other dogs barging into her space and ignoring warning signals to back off doesn't amount to her having issues, in my opinion.


I have to agree with you.

Georgina would ignore the other dog completely, irrespective of the dog's age or size.

Gwylim however, doesn't like dogs who invade his space, and would give them a warning growl. If the offending dog didn't take the hint and back off, he'd give another growl, but if that was ignored he'd try to bite them!

A couple of times that's happened, Georgina who's quite protective of her little brother, has stepped in front of him. Once with a puppy she shoved it out of the way with her nose and with a larger older dog she walked it quite some distance away from Gwylim.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

Leanne77 said:


> I think the problem with puppies is that although they arent likely to be aggressive, they havent really learnt any canine etiquette and usually dont see any warning signals. It's rare indeed that we've come across any pups or youngsters whom have backed off at a growl or show of the teeth (I was impressed with a pair of Spinoni who came running up to Flynn, right in his face. Just a low warning grumble from him had them both lowering their bodies and slinking away, and they ignored him from then on). Of course, many dogs then have to escalate their behaviour to get the message across and it's the escalation that many of us want to avoid in our dogs, so it really doesnt matter if the dog is 4 months old or 4 years old IMO.
> 
> (I will add that the dogs in the photos are owned by friends whom we were walking with so different situation but strange puppies are a different matter).
> 
> ...


That last picture is a great shot! Made me giggle, I must admit


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I don't think it classifies as a dog having "issues" if they object to obnoxious puppy behavior and respond with an appropriate correction.


Agree with this, Harley is not a fan of puppies but I definitely don't think of him as having 'issues'! My sister's pup has just turned six months old, and Harley has gotten much more tolerant of him lately, but he will still grumble and eventually air snap if Freddie won't leave him alone, though obviously we try not to let it get that far.

I can think of an instance or two where a stick to fend off other dogs might have been useful too. I remember walking a young dog (not mine) on lead, when we were approached by two off lead dogs. They seemed friendly at first and then the larger of the two started barking incessantly, and the smaller one started snapping at the dog I was walking. I couldn't let him off lead as he would have bolted, so he was just spinning in circles tangling both himself and me up with his lead in terror trying to get away from the snappy dog, while the owners just stood at the other end of the field watching! I ended up roaring at them to come and get their bloody dogs away from me. I had no idea I could shout so loud, I was so angry  I think if I'd had a stick they might have shifted a bit faster!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> If I had had a stout stick with me the day that dog stalked up to us (me, Bates and Breez) and was wholly undeterred by my big bad primate display, I most certainly would have used it. He meant harm. Dogs don't approach in stalking mode, head down, dead-set eyes and not making any noise for shits and giggles. That, and my dogs know the difference between a display and the real thing, and they were telling me this was the real thing.
> 
> If you haven't had to use force, consider yourself lucky. I have, and it sucks.
> 
> ...


To be clear I am absolutely not talking about an adult dog stalking another dog with the intent to cause harm. That is totally different from a puppy who may have wandered into your (general your) path by accident.

I'm very glad that me threatening to ram the offending stick that might have been used to prod a puppy where the sun doesn't shine gave you a giggle 

Also for the record I'm not suggesting puppy owners should be letting their pups off lead without good recall or let them run up to on lead dogs and bother them but sometimes accidents do happen and you come round the corner and are face to face with a dog you hadn't seen or heard coming. I think it is totally OTT and aggressive behaviour to prod such puppy with a stick and would not tolerate that :Grumpy I have to wonder why any dog lover would think that was an acceptable thing to do.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> This always makes me laugh.
> 
> And of course prodding a dog out of the way has absolutely NOTHING to do with being intolerant.
> 
> ...


How do you know whether a puppy you prodded has subsequently developed a fear of women with walking sticks and as a result has gone on to display inappropriate behaviour when meeting them in anticipation of receiving another "prod"?

I'm sorry your dog has just spent 3 months in a crate followed by 3 months of lead only exercise, I've been there many times with my current and previous rotties. Indie my current rottie had 5 consecutive orthopaedic operations between the age of one and two years. The period of on lead walking is always worrying but I managed perfectly well to avoid other dogs apart from on one occasion when I stupidly stopped off in a park on the way to the vets and a very OTT friendly Staffy tried to play/jump on her. Unfortunately his owner was rather obnoxious and refused to come and get him and told me in no uncertain terms if I had a dog that could not interact with other dogs I shouldn't have her in the park where there are lots of off lead dogs. Although it seemed very inconsiderate at the time he did have a point and so I avoided areas with other off lead dogs until she was fully recovered. It is more unusual to encounter off lead dogs walking on the roads of course.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I get fed up with dogs running over to mine at full pelt and I do body block them and if nesscary i will prod with the ball thrower I usually carry. If a dog is running over at full pelt I have no idea what this dogs intention is and whether it's a puppy or not is irrelevant, it's anti social whatever age. 

As for the OP you certainly have some action packed walks!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How do you know whether a puppy you prodded has subsequently developed a fear of women with walking sticks and as a result has gone on to display inappropriate behaviour when meeting them in anticipation of receiving another "prod"?
> 
> I'm sorry your dog has just spent 3 months in a crate followed by 3 months of lead only exercise, I've been there many times with my current and previous rotties. Indie my current rottie had 5 consecutive orthopaedic operations between the age of one and two years. The period of on lead walking is always worrying but I managed perfectly well to avoid other dogs apart from on one occasion when I stupidly stopped off in a park on the way to the vets and a very OTT friendly Staffy tried to play/jump on her. Unfortunately his owner was rather obnoxious and refused to come and get him and told me in no uncertain terms if I had a dog that could not interact with other dogs I shouldn't have her in the park where there are lots of off lead dogs. Although it seemed very inconsiderate at the time he did have a point and so I avoided areas with other off lead dogs until she was fully recovered. It is more unusual to encounter off lead dogs walking on the roads of course.


How lucky you are, unfortunately in my cul de sac alone, there are several dogs which are commonly offlead and not under control.

When she could only go a few yards at a time, short of a teleporter I had to walk her in the cul de sac My dogs can interact with other dogs and so can I but we live in an imperfect world itis true. 

Again it just demonstrates that the experience of one is not a universal one.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I dunno...I'd much prefer a puppy was dissuaded from approaching a strange dog by guiding (which is what I got from SB's post, maybe some are focusing too much on the word prod, I don't know) them away with a stick or having someone give a big bad primate display, than my dog practicing a correction.

-shrugs-


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would rather shoo or even push a puppy away than allow it to be bitten.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think it is totally OTT and aggressive behaviour to prod such puppy with a stick and would not tolerate that :Grumpy I have to wonder why any dog lover would think that was an acceptable thing to do.


Probably what you're envisioning with a "prod" is far worse than what was actually meant.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I'll be the first to call Bates a jerkface because he is one, but I don't think it classifies as a dog having "issues" if they object to obnoxious puppy behavior and respond with an appropriate correction. Bates will correct much like the GSD in the video did, except he roars with an open mouth and doesn't teeth clack. But it's essentially the same message and if preceded with a proper warning, perfectly normal, and effective way to teach a pup manners.
> 
> Where I have an issue is one, it's not my dog's job to teach random puppies manners. He did have to teach Breez manners, with our help, but dogs he doesn't live with are not his responsibility. And two, most owners unsurprisingly don't take kindly to an 80 pound bull-breed looking dog roaring at their ickle puppy. So yup, even non threatening puppies get sent packing. By me
> 
> A helpful side-effect of me shooing off approaching dogs is that through repetition, my dogs have learned to trust me to handle dog situations and thus, they don't get on-guard and worried that they might have to. I don't think it's a coincidence that even my jerkface dog can be in the midst of all sorts of dogs and stay relaxed about it.


But you see that's where I see the issue of people being to precious about their dogs interactions. I have no issues with an appropriate and well delivered correction from my dog. I'd trust a dogs judgement far more seriously than that of it's owner and don't see how that would be of more consequence to my dog or the other dog. Where as myself using force or physically engaging with an approaching dog could have a whole host of consequences ranging from the 'poked' dog redirecting it's frustration at me to it's much scarier owner charging at me threatening all & sundry. No thanks.

Just far to much intervention from us all the time in what is 9 times out of 10 not an issue in the first place.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> To be clear I am absolutely not talking about an adult dog stalking another dog with the intent to cause harm. That is totally different from a puppy who may have wandered into your (general your) path by accident.
> 
> I'm very glad that me threatening to ram the offending stick that might have been used to prod a puppy where the sun doesn't shine gave you a giggle
> 
> Also for the record I'm not suggesting puppy owners should be letting their pups off lead without good recall or let them run up to on lead dogs and bother them but sometimes accidents do happen and you come round the corner and are face to face with a dog you hadn't seen or heard coming. * I think it is totally OTT and aggressive behaviour to prod such puppy with a stick and would not tolerate that :Grumpy I have to wonder why any dog lover would think that was an acceptable thing to do*.


I do think forums such as these do not paint an accurate view of dog ownership amongst the majority. As you say, most would find it OTT and excessive to poke/prod/kick/shove etc etc a non threatening dog causing no other issues other than being in your way. Forums like this also indicate a great degree of dog intolerance IMO too which again, I don't think is representative of the vast majority of dog owning public.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> But you see that's where I see the issue of people being to precious about their dogs interactions. I have no issues with an appropriate and well delivered correction from my dog. I'd trust a dogs judgement far more seriously than that of it's owner and don't see how that would be of more consequence to my dog or the other dog. Where as myself using force or physically engaging with an approaching dog could have a whole host of consequences ranging from the 'poked' dog redirecting it's frustration at me to it's much scarier owner charging at me threatening all & sundry. No thanks.
> 
> Just far to much intervention from us all the time in what is 9 times out of 10 not an issue in the first place.
> 
> I do think forums such as these do not paint an accurate view of dog ownership amongst the majority. As you say, most would find it OTT and excessive to poke/prod/kick/shove etc etc a non threatening dog causing no other issues other than being in your way. Forums like this also indicate a great degree of dog intolerance IMO too which again, I don't think is representative of the vast majority of dog owning public.


The problem with allowing dogs to 'deliver a correction' is that the definition of that varies from dog to dog. You would not want a dog with a lower level of tolerance delivering a correction to a puppy, if only for the puppies sake. Then from the dogs perspective, if the dog is frequently bothered by space invaders and it is routinely allowed to 'correct' them, it becomes more of a learned behaviour that has the potential to escalate. A dog that's forced to apply corrections isn't a happy one at that moment, so if that can be avoided then IMO it should be avoided.

You also have to consider how appropriate allowing your own dog to deliver corrections is, particularly when there are breed perceptions. With many 'scary' breeds it doesn't matter if the other dog started it, if a 'scary' breed is involved it will always be your fault, so for your own dogs sake it's easier to deflect attention away from them rather than expect them to deal with it.....

I don't think anyone has suggested using force or physically engaging with a dog unless intent on doing harm? I find if I take mine by the collar and get them next to me/behind me, that's enough to deter most dogs, even cocky gits who run over guns blazing get bored when they aren't getting a reaction. On the very odd occasion I've had an even cockier git going for the legs like what happened to the OP, I've used my foot to try and remove said dog, not kicking but just as a barrier. I'd only use force if it was necessary, and thankfully it never has been......as I said earlier actual aggressive dogs that want to cause damage are pretty rare on the grand scale of things.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> But you see that's where I see the issue of people being to precious about their dogs interactions. I have no issues with an appropriate and well delivered correction from my dog. I'd trust a dogs judgement far more seriously than that of it's owner and don't see how that would be of more consequence to my dog or the other dog. Where as myself using force or physically engaging with an approaching dog could have a whole host of consequences ranging from the 'poked' dog redirecting it's frustration at me to it's much scarier owner charging at me threatening all & sundry. No thanks.
> 
> Just far to much intervention from us all the time in what is 9 times out of 10 not an issue in the first place.


I'm not getting into certain issues...at the moment I'm sleepy and what I want to say won't come across how I envision.

I do just want to address the "let the dog sort it out" mentality. I try to never let a dog get close enough for Fidget to have to get involved. That's because he feels that the appropriate reaction is to grab its face and go full batcrap crazy mode...and he's decided that this is appropriate based on his experiences with dogs. Previous experiences of dogs getting in his face has caused him to believe that every dog needs to be treated with a face grab and go nuts.

I don't want him to keep getting that belief reinforced, and I don't want some poor, clueless dog to be subjected to that. So I am usually a mega-b*tch towards approaching dogs! I am trying to get it spread all around that I will kick off if your dog approaches mine. Do I care what other owners think? Not one jot. I will protect their dog from mine however I have to. I've never used force yet, and when Fidgey got attacked it never entered my head to kick out at the other dog...but if I was rational at the time I may well have booted it to keep it away.

It's my responsibility as the owner to manage interactions as much as I can, I will never just leave my dogs to sort it out.

(This doesn't apply to their friends, I'm talking about uninvited dogs. Sara has told off her collie friend when she's got too boisterous and vice versa, but we have managed the introduction so we know they can accept being told to back off)


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Kimmikins said:


> I'm not getting into certain issues...at the moment I'm sleepy and what I want to say won't come across how I envision.
> 
> I do just want to address the "let the dog sort it out" mentality. I try to never let a dog get close enough for Fidget to have to get involved. That's because he feels that the appropriate reaction is to grab its face and go full batcrap crazy mode...and he's decided that this is appropriate based on his experiences with dogs. Previous experiences of dogs getting in his face has caused him to believe that every dog needs to be treated with a face grab and go nuts.
> 
> ...


But again, your dog has issues which means you intervene to prevent a more serious incident. Not what I was talking about or giving examples of.

Perhaps I do care more about what owners think as I have been threatened by another dog owner when standing up for my dog and myself. I left physically shaking and sick to my stomach after trying and thankfully succeeding to de-escalate a very aggressive situation. I thought I was going to be punched for sure, but thankfully the worst it got was being spat at. But as a result I know what response I could get and thus I know how these kind of things can quickly escalate. It only takes the wrong owner as it does for a loose dog to approach the wrong dog and things can be out of control before you know it.

This thread is an example of why I hate threads like this as it appears I'm vastly out of touch with the majority thinking on this forum in regards to dog interactions/encounters so I tend to bite my tongue when people start such threads. I guess we can all be happy we don't live close by and have to actually encounter each other on a walk.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

labradrk said:


> The problem with allowing dogs to 'deliver a correction' is that the definition of that varies from dog to dog. You would not want a dog with a lower level of tolerance delivering a correction to a puppy, if only for the puppies sake. Then from the dogs perspective, if the dog is frequently bothered by space invaders and it is routinely allowed to 'correct' them, it becomes more of a learned behaviour that has the potential to escalate. A dog that's forced to apply corrections isn't a happy one at that moment, so if that can be avoided then IMO it should be avoided.
> 
> You also have to consider how appropriate allowing your own dog to deliver corrections is, particularly when there are breed perceptions. With many 'scary' breeds it doesn't matter if the other dog started it, if a 'scary' breed is involved it will always be your fault, so for your own dogs sake it's easier to deflect attention away from them rather than expect them to deal with it.....
> 
> *I don't think anyone has suggested using force or physically engaging with a dog unless intent on doing harm? I find if I take mine by the collar and get them next to me/behind me, that's enough to deter most dogs, even cocky gits who run over guns blazing get bored when they aren't getting a reaction. On the very odd occasion I've had an even cockier git going for the legs like what happened to the OP, I've used my foot to try and remove said dog, not kicking but just as a barrier. I'd only use force if it was necessary, and thankfully it never has been......as I said earlier actual aggressive dogs that want to cause damage are pretty rare on the grand scale of things*.


I don't know. I'm pretty sure smokeybear said they don't discriminate which was what I was referring to initially anyway. That also doesn't surprise me either.

As I said, a dog approaching with serious intent is a different matter, or even a persistently annoying dog you just can't shake off I'd understand having to intervene eventually but it just makes me scratch my head sometimes at what others consider appropriate action.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Probably what you're envisioning with a "prod" is far worse than what was actually meant.


Yes possibly. I was going by this dictionary definition

verb (used with object), prodded, prodding.
1.
to poke or jab with or as if with something pointed:
I prodded him with my elbow.
2.
to rouse or incite as if by poking; nag; goad.
noun
3.
the act of prodding; a poke or jab.
4.
any of various pointed instruments used as a goad, especially anelectrified rod that administers a mild shock:
a cattle prod.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> How lucky you are, unfortunately in my cul de sac alone, there are several dogs which are commonly offlead and not under control.
> 
> When she could only go a few yards at a time, short of a teleporter I had to walk her in the cul de sac My dogs can interact with other dogs and so can I but we live in an imperfect world itis true.
> 
> Again it just demonstrates that the experience of one is not a universal one.


Yes It would seem I am/have been very lucky. We certainly don't have loose dogs off lead roaming in our cul de sac, I'm surprised you haven't reported them to the dog warden if they make it unsafe for you to walk your on lead dog down the road.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

So 'jabbing' was the correct definition too then. Seems I understood perfectly clear after all. But never mind, done with this thread now which will just keep going round in circles.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes It would seem I am/have been very lucky. We certainly don't have loose dogs off lead roaming in our cul de sac, I'm surprised you haven't reported them to the dog warden if they make it unsafe for you to walk your on lead dog down the road.


Oh I have and those who I know no longer do this but there are always others that I don't know who walk their dogs; unlike cars, dog walkers do not sport Registration plates for identification.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Probably what you're envisioning with a "prod" is far worse than what was actually meant.


Darn, I knew I forgot something, when I say prod I meant of course a cattle prod, you know those ones that give electric shocks as I find that entirely appropriate for puppies, and of course small children.

How have I lived so long without being arrested, beaten up, by other dog owners I wonder;or reported to the RSPCA etc? Or the Kennel Club?

It is is a miracle.

Just lucky I guess


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Darn, I knew I forgot something, when I say prod I meant of course a cattle prod, you know those ones that give electric shocks as I find that entirely appropriate for puppies, and of course small children.
> 
> How have I lived so long without being arrested, beaten up, by other dog owners I wonder;or reported to the RSPCA etc? Or the Kennel Club?
> 
> ...


LOL
I'm so sick of loose dogs in my area. Two are downright dangerous, have already caused issues with neighbors, and have been reported by myself twice, and two other neighbors. Nothing done.  And now those people have a puppy :Banghead:Banghead
I am seriously considering carrying mace with me, right now I'm just avoiding the area, but these dogs have a large range... 
Two of my neighbors have already promised to shoot them the next time they see them 



Dogloverlou said:


> I guess we can all be happy we don't live close by and have to actually encounter each other on a walk.


I'd be happy to encounter an owner like you on a walk, and I'm sure you'd be fine encountering me or many other PF members


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Can I ask those people who have dogs they believe would do damage to a puppy who happened into their space whether they feel it would be appropriate to muzzle their dogs?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I ask those people who have dogs they believe would do damage to a puppy who happened into their space whether they feel it would be appropriate to muzzle their dogs?


I know the question doesn't really apply to me as Phoebe has never shown any inclination to harm another dog. She is scared of most dogs she doesn't know, regardless of age/size/breed but she will turn to me to handle the situation for her. I prefer it that way as I don't want her to learn that if a strange dog/puppy approaches her, she can snap or bite and they'll leave her alone. If it got to that stage then yes, I'd have to muzzle her.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> @Happy Paws
> 
> I am also looking at getting a dogmatic I found a lovely blue one online which I may order soon. I used to have a black halti but unfortunately people were mistaking the halti for a muzzle. I am thinking this blue dogmatic will hopefully look more appealing and not so much like a muzzle.
> 
> *Dillon is stunning *X


*Thank You*

Dogmatics fit better as well, they don't ride up by their eyes. I have a red one and a gold one, I did buy one of their a training leads but but I find the Hulti training lead softer to hold.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Dear God this is one of the reasons I seriously doubt I will bother to have dogs again in the future. When did we all become so INTOLERANT?
> 
> @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming for future reference
> 
> ...


I never felt the need to carry a stick until after Jack was attacked.

I was alone with him and luckily the dog gave up before inflicting too much damage.

Had I been carrying a stick I might have been able to keep it at bay (lion tamer style) so it couldn't actually bite Jack.

I never want me or Jack to be so vulnerable again.

Hopefully, I won't ever have to use my stick, but if I do it won't be MY fault as I do everything humanly possible to avoid nuisance/aggressive dogs.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> *Thank You*
> 
> Dogmatics fit better as well, they don't ride up by their eyes. I have a red one and a gold one, I did buy one of their a training leads but but I find the Hulti training lead softer to hold.


That was another reason I stopped using the Halti, due to it riding up into his eyes. I also have the halti lead, I love it as you are able to give them a bit of range but then you are able to shorten the lead if walking by a busy road X


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> But again, your dog has issues which means you intervene to prevent a more serious incident. Not what I was talking about or giving examples of.
> 
> Perhaps I do care more about what owners think as I have been threatened by another dog owner when standing up for my dog and myself. I left physically shaking and sick to my stomach after trying and thankfully succeeding to de-escalate a very aggressive situation. I thought I was going to be punched for sure, but thankfully the worst it got was being spat at. But as a result I know what response I could get and thus I know how these kind of things can quickly escalate. It only takes the wrong owner as it does for a loose dog to approach the wrong dog and things can be out of control before you know it.
> 
> This thread is an example of why I hate threads like this as it appears I'm vastly out of touch with the majority thinking on this forum in regards to dog interactions/encounters so I tend to bite my tongue when people start such threads. I guess we can all be happy we don't live close by and have to actually encounter each other on a walk.


The only "issues" my dog has is that he has to be on lead in the open and he is totally submissive.

So, unless I intervened on his behalf he would be continuously mugged by other rude dogs running up to him (he would love to play with them, so very frustrating for him).

He would also just stand there while they sniff him, lick his genitals, clonk him with their paws, "bite" his face, etc.

He did once grumble at a dog 3 1/2 years ago when it clonked him with his dinner plate sized paw (while I had my head turned briefly whilst paying in a training class). It's owner couldn't control it BTW - both on lead and we had been trying to avoid the bloody thing all lesson .

And he might have turned on the dog that attacked him recently - I couldn't tell in the panic and fracas at the time.

So, I consider it is wholly my responsibility to protect him from nuisance/aggressive dogs because he probably can't/won't.

If I'm in a position to be waving a stick at a dog it's because the owner isn't close enough to be effective, therefore no immediate threat in themselves and Jack and I are already heading away but it's usually enough to galvanize the owner to recall their dog


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> But you see that's where I see the issue of people being to precious about their dogs interactions. I have no issues with an appropriate and well delivered correction from my dog. I'd trust a dogs judgement far more seriously than that of it's owner and don't see how that would be of more consequence to my dog or the other dog.


Perhaps I am being precious, I don't know, but I don't see it as my dogs job to correct someone else's puppy. As mentioned earlier, Harley isn't keen on puppies, so I would absolutely block an unknown one from approaching him. Not because I think he would maul them or anything, but because he would be uncomfortable with that encounter and I don't want him to feel like he has to resort to growling or air snapping. I see it as my job to protect my dog from being harassed like that. Harley is only small too, so a lot of puppies are bigger than him and can hurt him without meaning to.

With my sister's puppy I can't control every interaction they have and I wouldn't try to, but if the puppy is getting over the top and annoying him then again I would step in. The other day Harley got a full-on wallop in the face from a clumsy Freddie paw and just walked away, so my sister and I stopped Freddie from following him and distracted him with a game so it didn't go any further. I don't see that as precious, I see that as appropriate management of the situation. Maybe I'm wrong though?


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I ask those people who have dogs they believe would do damage to a puppy who happened into their space whether they feel it would be appropriate to muzzle their dogs?


Why should I have to muzzle my dog because others can't control theirs? I do everything in my power to avoid other dogs, I work bloody hard to work on his fears and issues, why should I have to add a muzzle to my repertoire too?

I know what you're trying to say, and I know you mean no offence by it, it just really gets my goat that muzzles get suggested for dogs like mine rather than others training their puppies!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I ask those people who have dogs they believe would do damage to a puppy who happened into their space whether they feel it would be appropriate to muzzle their dogs?


Not the same for me coz Alfie might bite a puppy but its very unlikely he could do much damage at his size! However I restrict his long line walks to areas where we are only likely to meet other on lead/controlled dogs like next to roads or verges, etc.
If I wanted to walk in popular areas with other dogs and I knew he might hurt another dog then I would consider a muzzle. If I didnt then I would be just as bad as those owners who let their dogs off knowing they cant control them.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can I ask those people who have dogs they believe would do damage to a puppy who happened into their space whether they feel it would be appropriate to muzzle their dogs?


I do muzzle one of my dogs if we are in a high traffic area due to people letting dogs of all ages and sizes run up to her. She has been attacked multiple times so reacts fearfully when a dog runs at full speed to her so I am now using the muzzle to slowly build her confidence back up, we are making progress. The sad fact is, if a dog happily and calmly walks up to her, she loves its, she wants to play as she will start play bowing and tail wagging at 100 miles an hour.

So unfortunately due to others not having the decency to control there dog, I have to use the muzzle to protect her.

I can't control other peoples actions and there dogs, but I can take steps (and have done) to block a dog or poke/prod whatever word you want to use, to stop any issues and I will continue to do so as long as people insist on letting dogs run up to mine.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Considering my dog has never laid his teeth on another dog whilst in my care then why on earth should he be muzzled? (Although I have muzzled in the past when needed)
I just don't want my dog to practice giving corrections, the last thing I want is for my dog to get back into a habit of "I bark like crazy = ******** dog goes away" so if I have to control someone elses dog to stop them harassing mine then I will.

I have worked too hard to get him to this stage for me to let gormless owners ruin it all...if I could find somewhere that meant I met no other dogs then I would be there like a shot, but the fact of life is I am surrounded by idiots


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Kimmikins said:


> Why should I have to muzzle my dog because others can't control theirs? I do everything in my power to avoid other dogs, I work bloody hard to work on his fears and issues, why should I have to add a muzzle to my repertoire too?
> 
> I know what you're trying to say, and I know you mean no offence by it, it just really gets my goat that muzzles get suggested for dogs like mine rather than others training their puppies!!


I know its an emotive issue, believe me I've been there and had to keep my last rottie Mabel muzzled around other dogs. My question was about dogs who would do serious harm to a puppy. So sorry but I do believe if your (general) dog would do serious harm to a puppy and you walk it in an area where there are off lead dogs/pups then it (general) should be muzzled. I also worked hard on my dog's issues but at then end of the day she was not safe so I considered it my legal and moral responsibility to muzzle her and keep her on a lead in places where there were a lot of dogs around. We are talking about puppies here so to berate owners for not training them seems a bit harsh, training a puppy takes time it doesn't happen immediately and there is always going to be that first time when you come across a situation and pup does something you didn't expect it to.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I know its an emotive issue, believe me I've been there and had to keep my last rottie Mabel muzzled around other dogs. My question was about dogs who would do serious harm to a puppy. So sorry but I do believe if your (general) dog would do serious harm to a puppy and you walk it in an area where there are off lead dogs/pups then it (general) should be muzzled. I also worked hard on my dog's issues but at then end of the day she was not safe so I considered it my legal and moral responsibility to muzzle her and keep her on a lead in places where there were a lot of dogs around. We are talking about puppies here so to berate owners for not training them seems a bit harsh, training a puppy takes time it doesn't happen immediately and there is always going to be that first time when you come across a situation and pup does something you didn't expect it to.


And I have to admit, although not a popular opinion obviously, if that dog was to cause injury or serious intent towards a puppy, or any dog for that matter, then that does equal a dog with issues IMO. Perhaps not exhibited in everyday situations but still not appropriate behaviour IMHO. Obviously we all have our definitions of the meaning of issues.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Considering my dog has never laid his teeth on another dog whilst in my care then why on earth should he be muzzled? (Although I have muzzled in the past when needed)
> I just don't want my dog to practice giving corrections, the last thing I want is for my dog to get back into a habit of "I bark like crazy = ******** dog goes away" so if I have to control someone elses dog to stop them harassing mine then I will.
> 
> I have worked too hard to get him to this stage for me to let gormless owners ruin it all...if I could find somewhere that meant I met no other dogs then I would be there like a shot, but the fact of life is I am surrounded by idiots


Who said your dog should be muzzled if he has never laid teeth on another dog? I suggested that a dog that would do serious "harm" to a puppy should be muzzled. Surely there is a considerable difference between the owner of an adult dog who habitually lets it harass other dogs and the owner of a puppy who is working through the socialisation and initial training involved with a pup. That is what I meant by my comments about intolerance, its like everyone forgets what having a pup and training it is like and expects all owners to have these perfect little robots who do everything they say immediately and never go near another dog unless invited by the owner.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I agree that if a dog would do serious harm then of course they should be muzzled. 
I'm just confused because I don't think anyone in this thread lacks tolerance, nor do they expect "robot" dogs...what I do expect is when a dog blows their recall that their owner makes an effort to get their dog.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> I agree that if a dog would do serious harm then of course they should be muzzled.
> I'm just confused because I don't think anyone in this thread lacks tolerance, nor do they expect "robot" dogs...what I do expect is when a dog blows their recall that their owner makes an effort to get their dog.


I think the thread went off at a tangent as they do with regards to the appropriateness or otherwise of prodding a puppy with a walking pole. As several people responded that they would prefer to poke a puppy than have their dog cause it harm I asked if those people who thought their dogs might harm a puppy thought it might be appropriate to muzzle their dogs. As comments were made about having to train other peoples puppies I suggested puppies are not robots and that it takes time to train them so a bit of tolerance wouldn't go amiss


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

Just to but in. Had two spaniel/border collie dogs sniff and then bite Bonnie on the bum on her lunchtime walk, owner was a good 50 metres away fannying on with ball flingers leads etc. Had to carry Bonnie as she was going to go in total meltdown so I shout at the dude to put his bloody dogs on a lead!! And what does he do try and do a nice introduction with his two dogs and Bonnie, eerr no mate I'm going this way you're going that way (Jeremy Kyle inspired talk)

Really buggered me off, also Bonnie's new red harness broke in the scuffle so now she doesn't match


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I suggested that a dog that would do serious "harm" to a puppy should be muzzled.


Any dogs that can do 'serious harm' should be muzzled. I'm not sure the age of the victim is actually relevant. Unless we are saying our dogs should recognise a puppies age and allow themselves to be harassed because it's a 'baby'? I think that is anthropomorphising. I'm not sure it works that way in nature ....

I also find that some people use the term 'puppy' when they mean adolescent ... I read threads about 'my 9 month old puppy' ....sorry, 9 months isn't a puppy ... I term puppies at 5 months and under and at that age I am massively protective and would be (was) very careful about allowing my pup to harass adult dogs. In fact my Lab will walk away from very small puppies. But if she is approached and bounced on by a 9 month old adolescent she is in her mind being harassed by an adult dog....so do not be surprised if she responds in an adult way.

I tend to avoid dogs on a walk as I like peace and quiet ...but yes, I will always send away dogs when mine are on the lead and do tend to block any dog I think may be out to cause trouble.

J


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who said your dog should be muzzled if he has never laid teeth on another dog? I suggested that a dog that would do serious "harm" to a puppy should be muzzled. Surely there is a considerable difference between the owner of an adult dog who habitually lets it harass other dogs and the owner of a puppy who is working through the socialisation and initial training involved with a pup. *That is what I meant by my comments about intolerance, its like everyone forgets what having a pup and training it is like and expects all owners to have these perfect little robots who do everything they say immediately and never go near another dog unless invited by the owner.*


Hah, not me, as I said earlier in the thread Juno bogged off to another dog a little while ago! if mine were robot like I'd have them off lead everywhere, sadly that's not the case, I wish!  most people who know me know my dogs are......umm 'characters'......which is why I'm very tolerant. I've had dogs on all end of the spectrum, overly friendly (aka rude gits!), assertive, nervous, grumpy, high-strung, you name it.....so I 'get' it from the various different perspectives. With the dogs I have now they don't appreciate being bombed up to on the lead, so yeah I'll block the dog(s) from approaching. I don't see that as being a big deal, nor do I make a big deal about it. Now if I have repeated run in's with the same space invaders, then IMO it's more of a big deal. Luckily where I live now it's not really an issue in the places I walk.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think the thread went off at a tangent as they do with regards to the appropriateness or otherwise of prodding a puppy with a walking pole. As several people responded that they would prefer to poke a puppy than have their dog cause it harm I asked if those people who thought their dogs might harm a puppy thought it might be appropriate to muzzle their dogs. As comments were made about having to train other peoples puppies I suggested puppies are not robots and that it takes time to train them so a bit of tolerance wouldn't go amiss


I didn't see anyone saying their dog would harm a puppy? correct it yes, harm it as in sink it's teeth in, nope. A correction from a less tolerant dog could be pretty scary for a pup, but that doesn't equal being physically harmed, just having a bad experience. If it's being blocked by a person (or stick!) or getting a correction off a less tolerant dog, I'd pick the person as far as experiences go......

Yes I agree with you that if you have dog that's likely to put holes in other dogs as a matter of course then yes, I think it should be muzzled.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Any dogs that can do 'serious harm' should be muzzled. I'm not sure the age of the victim is actually relevant. Unless we are saying our dogs should recognise a puppies age and allow themselves to be harassed because it's a 'baby'? I think that is anthropomorphising. I'm not sure it works that way in nature ....
> 
> I also find that some people use the term 'puppy' when they mean adolescent ... I read threads about 'my 9 month old puppy' ....sorry, 9 months isn't a puppy ... I term puppies at 5 months and under and at that age I am massively protective and would be (was) very careful about allowing my pup to harass adult dogs. In fact my Lab will walk away from very small puppies. But if she is approached and bounced on by a 9 month old adolescent she is in her mind being harassed by an adult dog....so do not be surprised if she responds in an adult way.
> 
> ...


Yes quite any dog that would do "serious harm" should be muzzled whatever the reason for its "issues". The age of the victim - ie. talking about a puppy arose purely because of the earlier discussion where one member asked another if they would still use their walking pole to "prod" a puppy and the answer was yes. That is why I stated that I viewed a puppy as being different to a rude/repeat offender adult dog and felt it intolerant to either prod or berate the owner of a pup trying to train it. I consider below 6 months of age a puppy and above an adolescent (a bit more for giant breeds) and who seriously hasn't had a pup below 6 months of age do something they either hadn't anticipated or got distracted for a moment and oops pup has bounded up to another dog that came out of the bushes or round a corner. So no I wasn't saying other dogs should be harassed by a pup more that the owner of the adult dog should be a bit tolerant of the owner and pup trying to get things right and not prod the pup with a stick or berate the owner for a brief entrance into their heavily guarded "space".


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I also find that some people use the term 'puppy' when they mean adolescent


Oh for sure! Once those needle teeth are gone, you don't get to say "puppy" anymore. That's now a juvenile dog. Who yes, have a lot of puppy traits, but they don't count as puppy, and most adult dogs will not see them as such either. Puppy license is well and done with by then.

I do consider it aberrant behavior for an adult dog to intentionally harm a puppy. Even those dogs who don't like puppies will not try to physically harm them. They might terrorize them emotionally, but they're not going to sink teeth in. If a dog is likely to do that, or has, to me that's unstable temperament and yes, the dog should be muzzled. And yes, I do expect a stable dog to know the difference between a puppy and a juvenile or adult dog and give the puppy more leeway. I don't think that's anthropomorphic, I think that's just normal dog behavior. But again, I'm talking puppy, not juvenile.

Bates will and has poked holes in rude dogs. However I don't muzzle him because a) he gives more than adequate warnings. Poking holes is not his first course of action. And b) since he does give so many warnings I have plenty of time to intervene before it gets to the poking holes point, and he listens well enough that I know he will back off if I tell him to. (And then that walking pole would come in handy for when I get my own dog under control and the other dog keeps coming!)



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think the thread went off at a tangent as they do


It did, and I'm sure the OP is glad for that


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

labradrk said:


> Hah, not me, as I said earlier in the thread Juno bogged off to another dog a little while ago! if mine were robot like I'd have them off lead everywhere, sadly that's not the case, I wish!  most people who know me know my dogs are......umm 'characters'......which is why I'm very tolerant. I've had dogs on all end of the spectrum, overly friendly (aka rude gits!), assertive, nervous, grumpy, high-strung, you name it.....so I 'get' it from the various different perspectives. With the dogs I have now they don't appreciate being bombed up to on the lead, so yeah I'll block the dog(s) from approaching. I don't see that as being a big deal, nor do I make a big deal about it. Now if I have repeated run in's with the same space invaders, then IMO it's more of a big deal. Luckily where I live now it's not really an issue in the places I walk.
> 
> I didn't see anyone saying their dog would harm a puppy? correct it yes, harm it as in sink it's teeth in, nope. A correction from a less tolerant dog could be pretty scary for a pup, but that doesn't equal being physically harmed, just having a bad experience. If it's being blocked by a person (or stick!) or getting a correction off a less tolerant dog, I'd pick the person as far as experiences go......
> 
> Yes I agree with you that if you have dog that's likely to put holes in other dogs as a matter of course then yes, I think it should be muzzled.


There have been a couple of mentions of dogs who would bite pups. So to clarify I'm not suggesting you (general) shouldn't try to block an incoming puppy if you think it will upset your dog, but I personally find a prod with a stick inappropriate and disproportionate. I'm also suggesting/asking why if an owner thinks their dog may do harm/damage to a pup they don't muzzle their dog. Seems like a reasonable question to me


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

labradrk said:


> Hah, not me, as I said earlier in the thread Juno bogged off to another dog a little while ago! if mine were robot like I'd have them off lead everywhere, sadly that's not the case, I wish!  most people who know me know my dogs are......umm 'characters'......which is why I'm very tolerant. I've had dogs on all end of the spectrum, overly friendly (aka rude gits!), assertive, nervous, grumpy, high-strung, you name it.....so I 'get' it from the various different perspectives. With the dogs I have now they don't appreciate being bombed up to on the lead, so yeah I'll block the dog(s) from approaching. I don't see that as being a big deal, nor do I make a big deal about it. Now if I have repeated run in's with the same space invaders, then IMO it's more of a big deal. Luckily where I live now it's not really an issue in the places I walk.
> 
> I didn't see anyone saying their dog would harm a puppy? correct it yes, harm it as in sink it's teeth in, nope. A correction from a less tolerant dog could be pretty scary for a pup, but that doesn't equal being physically harmed, just having a bad experience. If it's being blocked by a person (or stick!) or getting a correction off a less tolerant dog, I'd pick the person as far as experiences go......
> 
> Yes I agree with you that if you have dog that's likely to put holes in other dogs as a matter of course then yes, I think it should be muzzled.


I'm mostly agreeing with what you're saying here totally, but I'd actually disagree with a pup possibly having a worse experience receiving an appropriate correction from an older dog versus a person waving a stick in their direction/shouting/otherwise acting very threatening in their behaviour. I think there are quite a few pups that would find that the scarier experience and could possibly set them back regarding their socialisation and/or make them fearful. I know that doesn't matter one jot to the people who are likely to react that way, and yes people have commented here their dogs are likely to 'take matters into their own hands (paws? lol )' or 'bite' a puppy if confronted, which does signify a bigger issue IMO.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> There have been a couple of mentions of dogs who would bite pups. So to clarify I'm not suggesting you (general) shouldn't try to block an incoming puppy if you think it will upset your dog, but I personally find a prod with a stick inappropriate and disproportionate. I'm also suggesting/asking why if an owner thinks their dog may do harm/damage to a pup they don't muzzle their dog. Seems like a reasonable question to me


The thing is, that even if the dog is muzzled, it doesn't take away the potential to harm. It just stops teeth being used.
Surely a prod, poke or body block is better than the puppy receiving a correction from a less than tolerant dog?

Don't get me wrong. 
I'm not saying it's OK to hit or go bat crazy at any dog (be that puppy, adolescent or adult), neither am I saying that it's appropriate to walk an aggressive dog in an area where off leash dogs are going to be.

But for me, I would much rather a pup have a bad experience with me, than having a bad experience with another dog that could set them up to be over reactive (for want of a better word) and/or aggressive in the future.

But then as I have had people tell me that my dog should not be alive because he dared to growl at a dog that ran across a road to shove it's face up my dogs arse, I guess I'm a bit sensitive about it


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> And I have to admit, although not a popular opinion obviously, if that dog was to cause injury or serious intent towards a puppy, or any dog for that matter, then that does equal a dog with issues IMO. Perhaps not exhibited in everyday situations but still not appropriate behaviour IMHO. Obviously we all have our definitions of the meaning of issues.


I couldn't agree more. If an owner knows his or her dog is likely to inflict serious harm on a puppy that comes across to an on lead dog then that dog should be muzzled. It just isn't normal for a dog not to apply some restraint when dealing with a situation but in particular around a puppy. When I rescued a staffie found in our field a year or so ago it was behaving in exactly the same way with Duchess as the dog in the video in this thread. At no stage did Duchess make any attempt to hurt the staffie pup though. She knew the staffie was a young dog and behaved accordingly.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I do consider it aberrant behavior for an adult dog to intentionally harm a puppy. Even those dogs who don't like puppies will not try to physically harm them. They might terrorize them emotionally, but they're not going to sink teeth in. If a dog is likely to do that, or has, to me that's unstable temperament and yes, the dog should be muzzled.


I dont think its that cut and dried though TBH. I think we are all thinking about an average sized dog and a little puppy but what if its a giant breed/large, muscley pup vs a tiny toy breed or an elderly or injured dog??
Not all puppies listen to an adult dog and without owners stepping in they might get bitten if the other dog feels threatened. 
As always its down to the owners to anticipate behaviour based on what they of their dog and managing accordingly.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> I dont think its that cut and dried though TBH. I think we are all thinking about an average sized dog and a little puppy but what if its a giant breed/large, muscley pup vs a tiny toy breed or an elderly or injured dog??
> Not all puppies listen to an adult dog and without owners stepping in they might get bitten if the other dog feels threatened.
> As always its down to the owners to anticipate behaviour based on what they of their dog and managing accordingly.


That's why I specifically said "intentionally harm a puppy" 

*Most* puppies are ridiculously obnoxious and don't listen until an adult dog or a human owner steps in. And even when an adult dog puts a stop to behavior, they do it like the GSD in the video did. Without using teeth. This is normal dog behavior with young puppies.

FWIW, my giant breed dogs have never hurt a puppy. My large "muscley" dog has never hurt a puppy. My elderly dogs never hurt a puppy - even old grouchy dog who roared at puppies and hated them, never hurt them.

I stand by my assertion that it is aberrant behavior for an adult dog to intentionally harm a puppy - and by puppy I mean real puppy, not adolescent. 
Though I absolutely agree with you that it's up to owners to step in for the safety and wellbeing of all parties


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

Been reading this thread with interest. I've got a 15 month old entire male who has pretty poor manners with other dogs. He does respond to being growled at but he's very bouncy and in their faces. Mostly I avoid other dogs because he's a frustrated greeter, I will set up training sessions where he is taken near to other dogs and is fed for ignoring them. He's improving as he gets older and we do more training and I've got an excellent trainer supporting me with it.

So my question, is how do dogs learn manners? Is it something that naturally comes with maturity or is it something that needs to be specifically taught? I'm trying to teach him to ignore other dogs and I don't allow him to pester them like in that video posted a few pages back. Do I need to do more to teach manners or would it not matter so much if he'd been taught not to interact with other dogs/is kept away from other dogs


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2016)

evel-lin said:


> So my question, is how do dogs learn manners? Is it something that naturally comes with maturity or is it something that needs to be specifically taught? I'm trying to teach him to ignore other dogs and I don't allow him to pester them like in that video posted a few pages back. Do I need to do more to teach manners or would it not matter so much if he'd been taught not to interact with other dogs/is kept away from other dogs


Yes 

It's all of the above really. 
Some dogs seem born with great dog skills. Others don't "get" it no matter how many times you try and teach it. Most fall somewhere in the "learned" category. 
I like for my dogs to learn that random dogs we don't know are to be ignored. Then with dogs we do know, I'm selective about which ones and how they get to interact.

With puppies I really do think having a stable, sound temperament dog with good dog skills teach them backed up by a knowledgeable human is the best way. Granted, not everyone has that... 
There is a lot humans can teach pups, but really the best teacher is another dog who has good skills him/herself.

I've never raised a puppy without a stable adult on hand as well, and I don't ever intend to, so I'm probably not the best one to ask!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

See, I'm undecided on this now.. 

There was a cocker puppy (about 3 months old) on lead today doing typical crazy puppy stuff.. jumping about on the end of its lead, excited barking and trying its best to drag its humans towards us. Normally Phoebe would see a puppy as a fun new friend that's as bonkers as she is, but today she was really frightened, even though it didn't get anywhere near us.

If that puppy was let off lead and had ran towards her, I would have stepped in and chased it off. Phoebe won't hurt it, she won't even try to correct it, but she'll be petrified and the way she's been behaving for the last few weeks, it would probably effect her quite badly.

It's my job to protect her and if that means me scaring off a puppy rather than the puppy scaring her, then I'm going to do that. I'd feel really bloody awful for frightening a puppy.. especially as I know it doesn't know any better! But if it boils down to a puppy I don't know being emotionally traumatised, or my own dog being emotionally traumatised.. I'm going to look after my own dog as she's my first priority.

If that makes me "precious" about my dog, then so be it.. She is precious to me and I really hate to see her so anxious.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Nettles said:


> Normally Phoebe would see a puppy as a fun new friend that's as bonkers as she is, but today she was really frightened, even though it didn't get anywhere near us.
> If that puppy was let off lead and had ran towards her, I would have stepped in and chased it off.


This is often how my smaller dogs can react as puppies are often bigger then they are ....my Cavvies are anything but nervous but when approached by a big bouncy puppy trying to put its paws on them they initially do anything to get away (and are often at risk of being hurt) so I'm not of the 'suck it up girls it's only a puppy' school of thought I'm afraid ....and I really don't buy the 'they should know it's a puppy and not react' belief either. Two of my Cavvies will reprimand puppies for rude behaviour if I release them to do so. Even if those puppies are bigger than they are. And they have my blessing. But I tend to get in first and direct away .........



evel-lin said:


> So my question, is how do dogs learn manners? Is it something that naturally comes with maturity or is it something that needs to be specifically taught?


It's an interesting question. As Ouesi says, some dogs are born with better skills in this regard than others and different temperaments often mean that some need more 'training' than others. However, in general i would say that manners are taught ...both though training and through experience. What i will say though is that manners rarely simply come with maturity (I was told by an owner that she had been reliably told that Labradors 'grow out of' jumping up by the time they were two ...she's still waiting )

J


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Nettles said:


> See, I'm undecided on this now..
> 
> There was a cocker puppy (about 3 months old) on lead today doing typical crazy puppy stuff.. jumping about on the end of its lead, excited barking and trying its best to drag its humans towards us. Normally Phoebe would see a puppy as a fun new friend that's as bonkers as she is, but today she was really frightened, even though it didn't get anywhere near us.
> 
> ...


And fending off a dog or pup using a stick, pole, foot, etc. needn't be traumatic for them either.

I would only be extending it in their direction and gently sweeping from side to side so they can't get past and pounce on Jack, not smashing them over the head with it! 

...unless they attack, in which case no holds barred - my dog comes first 

Because Jack is always on lead in public, I'm happy for him to meet and greet puppies that are also on lead as he is so calm and friendly. He gives them a good experience but the owner is able to control their pup's behaviour/excitement. After a brief hello the pup can learn to settle and leave Jack alone while the owner and I chat.

I know some people don't like on lead meetings between dogs, but the reality is that not all dogs can be off lead and I've met a number of dogs who are "lead aggressive/reactive" so it's a valuable experience if the other dog is calm/friendly and they learn it's selective and with permission rather than bombing over to every dog they see. You can't always avoid other dogs, no matter how hard you try.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nettles said:


> See, I'm undecided on this now..
> 
> There was a cocker puppy (about 3 months old) on lead today doing typical crazy puppy stuff.. jumping about on the end of its lead, excited barking and trying its best to drag its humans towards us. Normally Phoebe would see a puppy as a fun new friend that's as bonkers as she is, but today she was really frightened, even though it didn't get anywhere near us.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't protect Phoebe if she is frightened or that you shouldn't try to deflect the puppy but I would take issue with trying to scare a young pup away or poking it with a pole. Imagine how you would have felt if someone had poked Phoebe with a pole when she was 3 months old. I know for sure if someone had done that to Indie who absolutely has no malice in her when she was 3 months old I would have been furious.



Lurcherlad said:


> And fending off a dog or pup using a stick, pole, foot, etc. needn't be traumatic for them either.
> 
> I would only be extending it in their direction and gently sweeping from side to side so they can't get past and pounce on Jack, not smashing them over the head with it!
> 
> ...


Of course we would all protect our own dog first in an attack situation and in those circumstances when another dog launches a full on attack you use any means at your disposal to break it up and protect your dog. Again no one is saying you shouldn't protect your dog if its under attack but how many people have genuinely had to prevent a *puppy* from attacking their dog? From what you said earlier I didn't get the impression Jack is frightened of other dogs/puppies so why would there be any need to use a stick or a pole or a foot on a puppy?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Just thought I'd point out that a foot or stick can be used in the same way as an arm or hand.
I used my legs as a barrier and my foot is used to guide the dog in the right direction. It's much easier and safer to use a leg or stick as a barrier than it is to bend down and use your arm IMHO

Meh, I'm happy with how I handle loose dogs, and the vast majority of the owners I meet have zero issue either


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> What i will say though is that manners rarely simply come with maturity (I was told by an owner that she had been reliably told that Labradors 'grow out of' jumping up by the time they were two ...she's still waiting )
> 
> J


I was told they stop being so obsessed with other dogs at that age too. I'm still waiting. Someone else has said 8 so I've got another 2 and a half years until he'll definitely have done so  We do work on it by the way and he's much, MUCH better than he was when I got him but it's like he's been programmed to see other dogs as amazing and nothing I've done has unprogrammed him if that makes sense.

But I see it a lot, people saying that dogs will grow out of this that or the other and they generally don't.

As for using a foot, stick, pole or whatever on a puppy, I've done it. Not to protect MY dog but to protect the puppy. Rupert would have seriously injured it and quite frankly being blocked or even pushed away with my foot was preferable to that. And brought the owner running to save her puppy from the horrible person kicking it, somehow that seems to bother them far more than their dog potentially being badly hurt by another one! Generally when blocking I use my legs and feet rather than my hands anyway, damned if I'm bending down and putting my face at the level of a potential bite! A stick would be better but I have my hands full without one.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't protect Phoebe if she is frightened or that you shouldn't try to deflect the puppy but I would take issue with trying to scare a young pup away or poking it with a pole. Imagine how you would have felt if someone had poked Phoebe with a pole when she was 3 months old. * I know for sure if someone had done that to Indie who absolutely has no malice in her when she was 3 months old I would have been furious. *


I guess the question here though is how does the person on the other side know that Indie has no malice? All they see is a dog running straight over to them. Yes you can tell by dog body language but often a dog running over happens so quickly you don't get a chance to so in that instance you have to react quickly so I will quite happily block that dog ether with my own body or a stick or ball thrower.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

stuaz said:


> I guess the question here though is how does the person on the other side know that Indie has no malice? All they see is a dog running straight over to them. Yes you can tell by dog body language but often a dog running over happens so quickly you don't get a chance to so in that instance you have to react quickly so I will quite happily block that dog ether with my own body or a stick or ball thrower.


I think the clue is in me saying when she was 3 months old. I quite understand now she is a huge lump of dog that people are often frightened by her even when her tail is wagging and she is whining with excitement at the mere thought that the person might say hello to her, therefore if someone shouted "no, go away" at her or blocked her with their legs I would just say sorry and call her away as fast as I could. Only the other day we played dodge some people with a little Westie who looked terrified of her and kept hiding in bushes, and picking their dog up if Indie so much as looked in their direction. We tried our hardest to avoid them and no doubt they were trying to avoid us but eventually our paths crossed and Indie was ready to run over to them (its the people not the dog she wants to say hello to), thankfully she didn't let me down and did a perfect "wait" while I went and put her lead on but had she gone full pelt at them I wouldn't have blamed them for shouting or blocking her from their little dog. However had she been a 3 month old puppy or a 5 month old puppy and they had poked her with a stick or their foot then I'm afraid I would have reacted in a very unladylike fashion indeed.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think the clue is in me saying when she was 3 months old. I quite understand now she is a huge lump of dog that people are often frightened by her even when her tail is wagging and she is whining with excitement at the mere thought that the person might say hello to her, therefore if someone shouted "no, go away" at her or blocked her with their legs I would just say sorry and call her away as fast as I could. Only the other day we played dodge some people with a little Westie who looked terrified of her and kept hiding in bushes, and picking their dog up if Indie so much as looked in their direction. We tried our hardest to avoid them and no doubt they were trying to avoid us but eventually our paths crossed and Indie was ready to run over to them (its the people not the dog she wants to say hello to), thankfully she didn't let me down and did a perfect "wait" while I went and put her lead on but had she gone full pelt at them I wouldn't have blamed them for shouting or blocking her from their little dog. However had she been a 3 month old puppy or a 5 month old puppy and they had poked her with a stick or their foot then I'm afraid I would have reacted in a very unladylike fashion indeed.


But again in the instance of a dog running over, its hard to tell the age of a dog, it would happen so fast so to use a foot or stick to block that dog and then you can establish easier its intent and reassess the situation.

But to use a foot to block the path of a 3 month old dog whereby you don't know its intention does not seem unreasonable in my view. Note that we are talking about using a foot or stick to block them. We are not talking about going bat s$!t crazy and start kicking the animal.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think the clue is in me saying when she was 3 months old. I quite understand now she is a huge lump of dog that people are often frightened by her even when her tail is wagging and she is whining with excitement at the mere thought that the person might say hello to her, therefore if someone shouted "no, go away" at her or blocked her with their legs I would just say sorry and call her away as fast as I could. Only the other day we played dodge some people with a little Westie who looked terrified of her and kept hiding in bushes, and picking their dog up if Indie so much as looked in their direction. We tried our hardest to avoid them and no doubt they were trying to avoid us but eventually our paths crossed and Indie was ready to run over to them (its the people not the dog she wants to say hello to), thankfully she didn't let me down and did a perfect "wait" while I went and put her lead on but had she gone full pelt at them I wouldn't have blamed them for shouting or blocking her from their little dog. *However had she been a 3 month old puppy or a 5 month old puppy and they had poked her with a stick or their foot then I'm afraid I would have reacted in a very unladylike fashion indeed.*


I think 'poked' and 'jabbed' and whatever other words that have been used in this thread have been taken out of context. When I've used a pole or my foot, it's been as a barrier, not jabbing the other dog with it. If the dog made contact with it then that's because they made contact with it of their own accord. I don't imagine for one minute anyone on here is jabbing a dog with anything unless of course it's a nasty git, in which case getting jabbed with a pole or foot certainly isn't the worse thing that could happen to it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> This is often how my smaller dogs can react as puppies are often bigger then they are ....my Cavvies are anything but nervous but when approached by a big bouncy puppy trying to put its paws on them they initially do anything to get away (and are often at risk of being hurt) so I'm not of the 'suck it up girls it's only a puppy' school of thought I'm afraid ....and I really don't buy the 'they should know it's a puppy and not react' belief either.


This sounds familiar! Even very young puppies can (and have) bowled my dogs over, trampled on them, chased them...even something like having their bottom sniffed can result in them being lifted up and even flipped over! Generally growling, air snapping, running from them makes no difference and I dont think Ive seen any of them brave enough to actually bite properly.
oh, and telling the owner to remove their puppy or that my dogs will bite if they dont take it away?? Usually results in being told to just let them be coz maybe their puppy will learn if it gets bitten!:Banghead
Frankly I wouldnt advocate anybody using any kind of force to shoo a puppy away, unless its as a last resort....unfortunately though Ive often come across situations where its either use physical force to keep a puppy away or work out how to remove yourself from the situation whilst holding their dog in one place!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Again, the responses being posted are completely off topic to what I originally meant. My dog is frightened, it would react, I'd defend them in an attack, I'm protecting the puppy....all examples I was not pointing out. If your dog has reason to be protected against a puppy, or any dog for that matter, than that's a very real reason.

My response was directed at smokeybear who I found rather odd to use such measures when she supposedly has such dog neutral non reactive dogs that a stick is overkill IMO. If I have a totally friendly, non reactive dog that is happy to meet & greet other dogs or ignore their approach I'm certainly not going to be waving sticks at it. Of course, carrying one as protection against a real attack is different, but that wasn't what was being said or meant initially.

I don't know though how popular defending your own dog really is though. I have never yet seen one other dog walker wave sticks/create hell at an approaching dog. In fact just the other week a loose dog approached both myself with both boys on lead & another dog walker walking along side us with their dog off lead playing fetch. This loose dog tore after the dog playing fetch repeatedly, no malice behind it, just chasing and joining in the game it looked like. Not once did the owners seem upset or bothered by the intrusion. I'm sure it does happen as evidenced in this thread, but I've just never seen it in person yet. Interesting thread though.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think the clue is in me saying when she was 3 months old. I quite understand now she is a huge lump of dog that people are often frightened by her even when her tail is wagging and she is whining with excitement at the mere thought that the person might say hello to her, therefore if someone shouted "no, go away" at her or blocked her with their legs I would just say sorry and call her away as fast as I could. Only the other day we played dodge some people with a little Westie who looked terrified of her and kept hiding in bushes, and picking their dog up if Indie so much as looked in their direction. We tried our hardest to avoid them and no doubt they were trying to avoid us but eventually our paths crossed and Indie was ready to run over to them (its the people not the dog she wants to say hello to), thankfully she didn't let me down and did a perfect "wait" while I went and put her lead on but had she gone full pelt at them I wouldn't have blamed them for shouting or blocking her from their little dog. However had she been a 3 month old puppy or a 5 month old puppy and they had poked her with a stick or their foot then I'm afraid I would have reacted in a very unladylike fashion indeed.


Is it better then for me to allow a persistent pup to push Rosie to the point where she bites it, or for me to use a stick or my foot to prevent the puppy getting into such a situation in the first place?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't protect Phoebe if she is frightened or that you shouldn't try to deflect the puppy but I would take issue with trying to scare a young pup away or poking it with a pole. Imagine how you would have felt if someone had poked Phoebe with a pole when she was 3 months old. I know for sure if someone had done that to Indie who absolutely has no malice in her when she was 3 months old I would have been furious.
> 
> Of course we would all protect our own dog first in an attack situation and in those circumstances when another dog launches a full on attack you use any means at your disposal to break it up and protect your dog. Again no one is saying you shouldn't protect your dog if its under attack but how many people have genuinely had to prevent a *puppy* from attacking their dog? From what you said earlier I didn't get the impression Jack is frightened of other dogs/puppies so why would there be any need to use a stick or a pole or a foot on a puppy?


This is all getting very confusing 

No, Jack isn't scared of dogs/pups per se and I have said I actually allow calm, quiet dogs (especially pups) to greet him, for their benefit as well as his.

But, since his attack an Airedale pup of more than a few weeks, running up to him would probably scare the cr*p out of him (and me) 

It also depends on the definition of pup. A full grown PITA field spaniel of 12 months+ was always excused by it's owner because "he's just a puppy" 

Likewise the "pup" Boxer or Rottie crosses, or yapping JR that run at us from 2 football pitches away as we head out of the field, whose owners are so far away and ineffective.

Do I stand and wait there while they jump all over my dog, and me until their owners saunter over and try to retrieve them? Do I try and hold their collar to stop them jumping on us? Do I just keep walking and risk those dogs following us onto the nearby road?

I usually manage to shoo them far enough with my voice and arm, but I don't think me gently sweeping my hiking pole back and forth a few times to redirect them away is going to scare them tbh. As I've said, it's likely to galvanise the owner if anything.

My friend's grey IS scared of other dogs (except the young pups) and she will tell off another dog if it gets in her face. Unfortunately, on more than one occasion the other dog has taken exception to that and then gone for her!

Like I've also said, I give most people (and dogs) the benefit of the doubt, and I've never scared a dog (or pup) with my "big stick" 

A few owners - yes!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Didn't care how old the dog was when it came to Shadow to be honest, if it came in fast it got blocked. A large breed 3 month old puppy could very easily knock him down just being a typical puppy. And with Rupert it was in the pups best interests to be kept away, even if it had meant being jabbed (it never came to that but I would use my legs to block and push it away!). If the owners don't like it...tough luck really. 

I'm a lot more relaxed with Spen but if a pup is really pestering him then I'll do the same because I really don't feel it's fair for him to put up with being jumped on, nipped and generally harassed just because it's a young pup and the owner is of the "he'll tell him when he's had enough" opinion. When it comes to puppies Spencer WON'T tell them. Not until they reach about 6 months anyway.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I don't know though how popular defending your own dog really is though ....This loose dog tore after the dog playing fetch repeatedly, no malice behind it, just chasing and joining in the game it looked like. Not once did the owners seem upset or bothered by the intrusion. I'm sure it does happen as evidenced in this thread, but I've just never seen it in person yet. Interesting thread though.


I think it makes a difference too if your dog is leashed or loose too, in most cases.

I was less bothered BEFORE Jack was attacked. Before, they were just a pest.

Since then, I am much more wary.

If Jack was running loose and charged up to someone and their dog, I would be confident that he bore no malice. They, on the other hand would not.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> I think it makes a difference too if your dog is leashed or loose too, in most cases.
> 
> I was less bothered BEFORE Jack was attacked. Before, they were just a pest.
> 
> ...


I understand that. It's only natural to become more wary after an actual dog attack.

I think the vast majority of owners do not see an approaching dog as a threat though which is why I do not see people reacting in the manners described here and those that are dog savvy would be able to read body language and act accordingly. I think forums such as this highlight the potential threats/dangers far more loudly and with more shock tactics which makes people feel there is a real issue about loose dogs in general. The only time I'm likely to create hell about a loose dog is if it's intent on attacking mine, at which point a stick would be unlikely to deter it anyway.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

stuaz said:


> But again in the instance of a dog running over, its hard to tell the age of a dog, it would happen so fast so to use a foot or stick to block that dog and then you can establish easier its intent and reassess the situation.
> 
> But to use a foot to block the path of a 3 month old dog whereby you don't know its intention does not seem unreasonable in my view. Note that we are talking about using a foot or stick to block them. We are not talking about going bat s$!t crazy and start kicking the animal.


Seriously how many 3 month old puppies have you met that give you cause for fear/anxiety. I also think there is a difference between advising someone to use their foot to "block" and using a stick to prod.



labradrk said:


> I think 'poked' and 'jabbed' and whatever other words that have been used in this thread have been taken out of context. When I've used a pole or my foot, it's been as a barrier, not jabbing the other dog with it. If the dog made contact with it then that's because they made contact with it of their own accord. I don't imagine for one minute anyone on here is jabbing a dog with anything unless of course it's a nasty git, in which case getting jabbed with a pole or foot certainly isn't the worse thing that could happen to it.


I think the intention of using a pole to prod was pretty clear back when it was first mentioned.



Sweety said:


> Is it better then for me to allow a persistent pup to push Rosie to the point where she bites it, or for me to use a stick or my foot to prevent the puppy getting into such a situation in the first place?


I think if your dog is likely to actually bite a puppy and you know that then a muzzle should be worn in areas where you are likely to encounter puppies.



Lurcherlad said:


> This is all getting very confusing
> 
> No, Jack isn't scared of dogs/pups per se and I have said I actually allow calm, quiet dogs (especially pups) to greet him, for their benefit as well as his.
> 
> ...


Yes its got confusing because I think some people have interpreted me saying I would stick the pole where the sun don't shine if anyone poked a young pup of mine simply for going up to them as meaning I don't think you (general) have the right to defend a dog being attacked. I too have an on lead dog and we rarely get harassed, yes we have a few off lead dogs run over but I don't feel the need to get worked up about that and start shouting at people or prodding their dogs with sticks or poles. It is that kind of behaviour that I find so intolerant these days and frankly selfish. If you (general) walk in public places populated by other users and other dogs then you do have to expect some interaction. Those who think all other dogs should stay out of their imagined space as their dog has issues are being unrealistic in the expectations of the general public.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Well I've got to admit, I'm confused... we've gone from aggressive dogs to the rights or wrongs of poking young puppies with sticks 
Forum threads never cease to amaze me


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously how many 3 month old puppies have you met that give you cause for fear/anxiety. I also think there is a difference between advising someone to use their foot to "block" and using a stick to prod.
> 
> I think the intention of using a pole to prod was pretty clear back when it was first mentioned.
> 
> ...


It's exactly the reasons I never take Missy on park walks. I could be totally selfish & feel it's 'my right' to walk anywhere I want, but why put my dog in that situation in the first place just to prove a point? We can quite realistically expect a dog to approach and as much as it's my right to walk where I wish, it's also others right to walk there too, most of which are not dog savvy like us here so who am I to start shouting the odds? Missy would be stressed, the other dog would be stressed/scared off, and I would be frustrated & stressed myself. Such a great walk! I can understand the dilemma faced if someone ONLY has a populated park to walk in day in and day out. That must be incredibly frustrating over time. But for the vast majority of us we can pick & choose our walking spots quite freely. I just don't get this 'I report anyone with a dog out of control' mentality or taking matters into their own hands as they're so defensive about their space being invaded. It's just OTT and as you say, intolerant. We was all newbie dog owners once and not one of us can sit here and say we have never made cock ups with our dogs, or that they've never strayed into the wandering path of another dog etc, and those that say that isn't the case are lying  I'd like to think I'm generous and understanding of other people and their dogs in most circumstances, especially one off encounters.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Those who think all other dogs should stay out of their imagined space as their dog has issues are being unrealistic in the expectations of the general public.


I don't think there should be anything unrealistic about expecting to be able to walk down the street without loose dogs rushing up. Which is exactly the situation I found myself in, I couldn't leave the house with Rupert in daylight hours without having other dogs rush him. I didn't expect to take my aggressive dog to the off lead areas I take Spen to. I've no objection to Spen being approached by other dogs in off lead areas, just to him being harassed by them and the owners not giving a damn then objecting when I intervene. It does annoy me in the street when it happens though.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I don't think there should be anything unrealistic about expecting to be able to walk down the street without loose dogs rushing up. Which is exactly the situation I found myself in, I couldn't leave the house with Rupert in daylight hours without having other dogs rush him. I didn't expect to take my aggressive dog to the off lead areas I take Spen to. I've no objection to Spen being approached by other dogs in off lead areas, just to him being harassed by them and the owners not giving a damn then objecting when I intervene. It does annoy me in the street when it happens though.


I think that is fair enough, it would annoy me if I was rushed at by loose dogs when walking down the street but I don't think that is what most people who complain about these so called "space invaders" mean. I too have had an extremely dog (and people) aggressive dog who needed to be muzzled/on lead around other dogs and people but I would no way have taken her around a busy park and shouted at everyone else to keep out of our way or waved sticks at them. If I couldn't have got to a decent place to walk her and had to use the park then I would have walked her in the middle of the night or hired a private field.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> It's exactly the reasons I never take Missy on park walks.


Count yourself lucky that you don't live in an area where walking a dog off leash next to roads is seen as a badge of honor .
FWIW I avoid the local park, I avoid many of the crop fields and pretty much any green space because they are used as free for all's...I will explain calmly and politely why my dog and many others don't want strange dogs running up to them or just completely avoid by diving into hedges if I have too.
Not because of Thai's behaviour anymore, but because selfish people refuse to control their dogs, and I don't think it is fair that Thai has to deal with that. So we avoid!

I still have at least one dog rush at us every single day, and the majority of repeat offenders think it is hilarious.
If I had used my arm to try to body block the spaniel that took a sudden dislike to Thai then I would have had a very nasty bite to my face, but because I automatically use my legs he got my thigh instead...if I had taken my hiking stick that day then I may not have got bitten at all


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

So, because my dog can't be let off in the open I should avoid all areas where loose dogs may be - parks, playing fields, bridleways, public footpaths, byways, country parks, beaches ........

I am now doomed to pound the pavements with Jack for evermore or pay for the hire of a private field. 

I manage 90% of the time to avoid unwanted interactions, without drama.

No getting wound up, no shouting, no stick waving, no dog/pup poking (the latter-never, so far).

I have no right to expect to be able to walk my dog, unmolested, anywhere I please - though everyone else does. 

Nor should I expect other dog owners to take reasonable steps to control their dogs and show due consideration to other people and their dogs.

I should count myself lucky that my dog isn't scared witless by approaching dogs, recovering from surgery, set back in his reactivity training by a bad experience, nor that I am old, infirm or phobic of strange dogs.

Giving way to pups, dogs in training and owners who occasionally lose concentration isn't enough, I should expect to be approached by dogs - period.

I have no right to complain about persistently inconsiderate owners and their dogs - I should just suck it up.

Being a member of a dog forum I can read the body language of every approaching dog too!

I am intolerant. I need to get over it.

OK

I can, apparently, use a stick to beat off an attacking dog. Phew - thanks!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think that is fair enough, it would annoy me if I was rushed at by loose dogs when walking down the street but I don't think that is what most people who complain about these so called "space invaders" mean. I too have had an extremely dog (and people) aggressive dog who needed to be muzzled/on lead around other dogs and people but I would no way have taken her around a busy park and shouted at everyone else to keep out of our way or waved sticks at them. If I couldn't have got to a decent place to walk her and had to use the park then I would have walked her in the middle of the night or hired a private field.


No, I have to admit I see a lot on dog groups on FB who seem to think that taking their dog to a busy area and sticking a vest or coat with "I need space" on it is all they need to do to make others give them space. Personally when I had a dog who needed space I saw it as my job to create that space, all I asked was that others respected it by not letting their dogs run over to us. Rupert was walked in the middle of the night in the end because even walking on busy roads we'd still have dogs rushing up to us.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer that dogs weren't allowed to just approach Spen but it's a fact of life where we live and walk and I don't make a big deal out of it. Until I get some tw*t who goes "oooh, you've got your hands full" while their out of control thug of a dog dances on Spens head and I'm trying to see it off before Spen resorts to snapping at it. They get a sharp comment about how my dog isn't the one making a nuisance of himself.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

And while I didn't walk Rupert in off lead areas I still took my elderly, infirm collie to the nearby field. I didn't see why he should miss out on a nice potter around because of the odd dog (which is all it is, most round here are actually pretty polite and just sniff and move on) who'd knock him down and trample him. Not my dog who was the problem, it was the out of control one who was.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> So, because my dog can't be let off in the open I should avoid all areas where loose dogs may be - parks, playing fields, bridleways, public footpaths, byways, country parks, beaches ........
> 
> I am now doomed to pound the pavements with Jack for evermore or pay for the hire of a private field.
> 
> ...


Who on earth said that? I don't let Arthur off lead either and I manage perfectly well. I've also had dogs recovering from major orthopaedic surgery and managed perfectly well. Also have a dog who is scared of other dogs and have had one who hated the sight of other dogs but seriously I've never come across the amount of drama described on this forum. No one said you should suck up inconsiderate owners but I don't believe any one of us has the "right" to walk our dogs in heavily populated areas and expect "space" and I definitely don't believe we have the right to go around prodding other peoples dogs for no good reason.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> *No, I have to admit I see a lot on dog groups on FB who seem to think that taking their dog to a busy area and sticking a vest or coat with "I need space" on it is all they need to do to make others give them space. Personally when I had a dog who needed space I saw it as my job to create that space, all I asked was that others respected it by not letting their dogs run over to us. *Rupert was walked in the middle of the night in the end because even walking on busy roads we'd still have dogs rushing up to us.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer that dogs weren't allowed to just approach Spen but it's a fact of life where we live and walk and I don't make a big deal out of it. Until I get some tw*t who goes "oooh, you've got your hands full" while their out of control thug of a dog dances on Spens head and I'm trying to see it off before Spen resorts to snapping at it. They get a sharp comment about how my dog isn't the one making a nuisance of himself.


This x1000000! does my head in. Followed by the appalled and outraged posts where they've DEMANDED people get their dogs on leads and away from them, can't you READ you fools?! honestly, it must be exhausting being in a permanent state of fury and rage. And then they wonder why they get less than favourable responses from some owners :Hilarious

Honestly I don't expect courtesy from anyone, but you usually get a lot more courtesy if you are polite and not a self entitled douche.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Could someone also define "Out of control" in terms of walking dogs in public spaces where there are a lot of other off lead dogs. Are we not talking about owners who lack empathy or understanding of why a dog who is on lead might need to be left in peace rather than one who has an out of control dog? For your average owner until you actually have a dog who can't mix with others because it is frightened and/or aggressive or one who is elderly and/or recovering from illness it doesn't enter their head that they are committing some kind of faux pas. I don't class that as being out of control more being an owner who lacks awareness.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Personally I think whether you encounter a lot of drama can very much depend on the area you live/walk in to be honest. I encountered drama very rarely in Germany where it was unusual to see more than one other person out with a dog once you got into the woods or fields. I could be out for several hours and never meet another dog walker. Here I can be out an hour and on a nice day see 50 or more dogs, both on the streets on the way to where Spen goes off lead and in off lead areas. Hell of a lot more encounters in one day than we had in a month in Germany.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Could someone also define "Out of control" in terms of walking dogs in public spaces where there are a lot of other off lead dogs. Are we not talking about owners who lack empathy or understanding of why a dog who is on lead might need to be left in peace rather than one who has an out of control dog? For your average owner until you actually have a dog who can't mix with others because it is frightened and/or aggressive or one who is elderly and/or recovering from illness it doesn't enter their head that they are committing some kind of faux pas. I don't class that as being out of control more being an owner who lacks awareness.


When someone can't or won't prevent their dog rushing, slamming, jumping on, nipping and generally pestering me or mine then I consider that dog to be out of control. Sure, it's the owner who's a d*ck really but that dog is still out of control. These same dogs are generally making a nuisance of themselves with other dog owners, cyclists, joggers etc as well and I feel they're a huge factor in why so many places are becoming more and more unwelcoming of dogs in general.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Personally I think whether you encounter a lot of drama can very much depend on the area you live/walk in to be honest. I encountered drama very rarely in Germany where it was unusual to see more than one other person out with a dog once you got into the woods or fields. I could be out for several hours and never meet another dog walker. Here I can be out an hour and on a nice day see 50 or more dogs, both on the streets on the way to where Spen goes off lead and in off lead areas. Hell of a lot more encounters in one day than we had in a month in Germany.


Yes I would agree with that. We are choose to drive about 13 mins from our house to the forest as the heathland right here opposite our house is too busy for our liking on narrow paths so its hard to avoid others. Even in the forest at busy times like Bank Holidays its harder to avoid people and dogs and we got caught out by going before dark on Monday and having to dodge loads of people who acted like they have never seen a rottie before, the rest of the week we've just waited until 5 pm when its dark and we have the place to ourselves again.



Sarah1983 said:


> When someone can't or won't prevent their dog rushing, slamming, jumping on, nipping and generally pestering me or mine then I consider that dog to be out of control. Sure, it's the owner who's a d*ck really but that dog is still out of control. These same dogs are generally making a nuisance of themselves with other dog owners, cyclists, joggers etc as well and I feel they're a huge factor in why so many places are becoming more and more unwelcoming of dogs in general.


So a dog just approaching you and your dog, perhaps having a sniff or making an attempt to play but going on its way again if your dog doesn't engage is not out of control is it?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So a dog just approaching you and your dog, perhaps having a sniff or making an attempt to play but going on its way again if your dog doesn't engage is not out of control is it?


I suppose technically it depends whether or not the owner can prevent it from doing so  But no, if a dog comes over as we get close or have to pass and has a sniff or invites Spen to play politely I wouldn't rant about it being out of control. However, I may well have done with Rupert if the owner either couldn't or wouldn't prevent it from coming over. So I guess it depends how you're looking at the situation as well. With Rupe though I'd have made huge efforts to avoid, with Spen I don't make any attempt to avoid other dogs unless they look to be an issue so that would factor in for me as well. And even with Spen I do not think a dog is under control if it's raced the length of a field to "say hello" since if anything does happen it's me stuck dealing with it because the other owner is miles away. So yeah, different situations of a dog approaching us may get a different reaction.

To be honest, I don't make a big song and dance about polite dogs as Spen is happy to meet and greet but there are things that do really bug me even with polite and friendly ones.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Could someone also define "Out of control" in terms of walking dogs in public spaces where there are a lot of other off lead dogs. Are we not talking about owners who lack empathy or understanding of why a dog who is on lead might need to be left in peace rather than one who has an out of control dog? For your average owner until you actually have a dog who can't mix with others because it is frightened and/or aggressive or one who is elderly and/or recovering from illness it doesn't enter their head that they are committing some kind of faux pas. I don't class that as being out of control more being an owner who lacks awareness.


I don't know, I'd say the majority of people we come across when they see mine on leads extend to courtesy (having a big dark GSD helps :Hilarious). Or if they don't bother they are usually the sort of dogs that aren't interested in approaching, which is fine by me, we walk around them. I'm lucky where we live now, I do mostly downland/hill walks where I can give things the wide birth. For me out of control would be rude dogs that are freely and routinely allowed to harass all they fit....as Sarah said chasing down other dogs, humping, jumping on, and/or being cocky obnoxious gits, with the owners not giving a monkeys claiming that diddums is only playing. OR even better, those with not desperately pleasant dogs and equally deluded owners. Like the Springer where I used to live who upon seeing another dog, would drop into a stalk, bare it's teeth and launch, with it's owner saying "he's usually ok......". No, he's clearly NOT ok! I'd always have Bo on a lead in the place we'd see them, as she would retaliate if I let her, she's a stroppy cow when she wants to be :Hilarious and could you imagine the flak owners of 'scary' breeds would get if their dogs were allowed to do that routinely to all they come across


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously how many 3 month old puppies have you met that give you cause for fear/anxiety.


If you're asking me, then the answer is none ....but if you are asking my Cavvies or my Chi then the answer is quite a few.

Interestingly enough my Cavvie told a 5 month old Labradoodle off this morning for bouncing all over her .....can't really blame her as it was probably the equivalent of you or I being bounced on by a baby elephant ..........

For me an 'out of control dog' is one that can't be called away when the owner see's it's attentions are unwanted.

J


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

It’s about balance really. I’m not going to overreact and create an issue where there isn’t one, but I’m also not going to under react and not avoid an issue when I have the power to do so. 
By the same token, I expect my dogs to ignore other dogs, and have purposely trained for that, so I don’t think it’s asking too much for others to ignore them.

I have no desire for my dogs to interact in any way with dogs I don’t know. 
95% of the time it’s a complete and total non-issue. Most of the time I walk in places where the likelihood of interaction is minimal, and for the times I walk in populated areas, I tell my dogs to “ignore” and because they don’t engage, most other dogs don’t engage either. Owners hear my “ignore” cue, get the hint, ignore back, and again, non-issue. 

Every once in a while we have issues. For us most of those issues involve loose dogs with no owner in sight. Again, most of the time it’s a non issue. My dogs have good skills and give off “I don’t want to interact” vibes and most dogs who live a life or roaming loose are also savvy enough to heed those vibes. For the ones that don’t, you bet I’m going to take matters in to my own hands. I am not friendly to these dogs, and quite frankly I don’t particularly care if they develop issues with people because of their encounter with me, and I am quite sure their owners don’t care about such things either. Developing reactivity issues is the least of these dogs’ worries. When they’re wandering out in to the road to come harass me and my dogs, getting hit by a car or shot by a farmer is what they should worry about. If I can make them more wary of people or being out in the road, I figure I’m doing them a favor.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So a dog just approaching you and your dog, perhaps having a sniff or making an attempt to play but going on its way again if your dog doesn't engage is not out of control is it?


I think alot of the problem is other dog owners being either oblivious to dog behaviour or just plain selfish. Its uite scary the amount of people who think its fine for their dog to have a sniff of another dog that is cowering in fear. Or where their dogs attempts at playing result in the other dog screaming in fear or otherwise traumatised.
I always wonder if these people really have no idea about dogs (even when it seems blatantly obvious a dog is unhappy) or if they just have such laser focus on their own dog that they dont see the other dog at all!


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously how many 3 month old puppies have you met that give you cause for fear/anxiety. I also think there is a difference between advising someone to use their foot to "block" and using a stick to prod.


Your missing the point. It's not a fear of a 3 month old, it's the fact it's an unknown when a random dog comes running over.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

labradrk said:


> could you imagine the flak owners of 'scary' breeds would get if their dogs were allowed to do that routinely to all they come across


Which is exactly why I prefer my dogs not give corrections even though they are both is fair and appropriate about them.

Then there are the people who say they *want* your dog to correct theirs. Uh.. no thanks. 
Or those who feel like you have some sort of responsibility to help improve their dog's behavior. Like the frustrated GSD owner who told me that if I would just let his dog meet mine his dog would calm down. Mind, this dog was leaping and lunging at the end of his lead doing an awesome GSD shriek/bark/wail thing and the man had to shout to make himself heard over the din. Yeah, that's a NO. No, your dog does not need to come anywhere near my dog with that kind of OTTness going on, nor should you be rewarding him for that behavior with a greeting either. But his over-aroused butt back in the car and start back from sane.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Personally I think whether you encounter a lot of drama can very much depend on the area you live/walk in to be honest. I encountered drama very rarely in Germany where it was unusual to see more than one other person out with a dog once you got into the woods or fields. I could be out for several hours and never meet another dog walker. Here I can be out an hour and on a nice day see 50 or more dogs, both on the streets on the way to where Spen goes off lead and in off lead areas. Hell of a lot more encounters in one day than we had in a month in Germany.


Much the same where I live in Hungary. The village dogs know mine and take no notice of them and it's only if I chose to walk them in the next village, which I don't, we'd be likely to encounter a problem with off leash and seemingly owner-less dogs!

I'm not sure whether it's just my imagination but it seems to me in general, Hungarian dogs are better balanced than their UK counterparts possibly because most of them spend far more time outside and live a more "natural" life.

A few months ago I had a lovely experience when I was waiting for my two to be returned from the groomer and watched about 20 dogs of all ages and sizes and their owners in a park. What amazed me was that all the dogs did their "own thing" without bothering one another. One was swimming in the stream, another played with a large stick it'd found and some where chasing balls. The smaller ones mainly followed their owners. The few puppies that were there were being walked by children supervised by their parents. .The thing that fascinated me was the way they all seemed to be enjoying themselves on their own without the need to interact or interfere with another dog, even those who belonged to the same owners.

Really interesting and gave me food for thought!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't protect Phoebe if she is frightened or that you shouldn't try to deflect the puppy but I would take issue with trying to scare a young pup away or poking it with a pole. Imagine how you would have felt if someone had poked Phoebe with a pole when she was 3 months old. I know for sure if someone had done that to Indie who absolutely has no malice in her when she was 3 months old I would have been furious.


I really don't know tbh RPH. I'd rather a human scared her off than a dog I don't know having to step in and correct her 
I wouldn't expect every human to be wielding a big stick at her if she went within a few metres of them or beating her with it, but a "poke or a prod" isn't overly aggressive or scary IMO. If she was intent on approaching an on lead dog, (which she did on a couple of occasions :Bag) and puppies are persistent little buggars so don't always listen to "gentle shooing," I'd understand if the owner took charge and prodded her away instead of allowing their dog to do it, and I'd be apologising to them for having to step in on my behalf.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I suppose technically it depends whether or not the owner can prevent it from doing so  But no, if a dog comes over as we get close or have to pass and has a sniff or invites Spen to play politely I wouldn't rant about it being out of control. However, I may well have done with Rupert if the owner either couldn't or wouldn't prevent it from coming over. So I guess it depends how you're looking at the situation as well. With Rupe though I'd have made huge efforts to avoid, with Spen I don't make any attempt to avoid other dogs unless they look to be an issue so that would factor in for me as well. And even with Spen I do not think a dog is under control if it's raced the length of a field to "say hello" since if anything does happen it's me stuck dealing with it because the other owner is miles away. So yeah, different situations of a dog approaching us may get a different reaction.
> 
> To be honest, I don't make a big song and dance about polite dogs as Spen is happy to meet and greet but there are things that do really bug me even with polite and friendly ones.


See I find that quite interesting because it seems to me that many owners define another dog being "out of control" according to the needs of their own dog, so the other dog isn't necessarily "out of control" its just not acting in a way that is acceptable to the dog we happen to be walking at the time.



Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> If you're asking me, then the answer is none ....but if you are asking my Cavvies or my Chi then the answer is quite a few.
> 
> Interestingly enough my Cavvie told a 5 month old Labradoodle off this morning for bouncing all over her .....can't really blame her as it was probably the equivalent of you or I being bounced on by a baby elephant ..........
> 
> ...


Fair enough that your Cavvie told the pup off, I would prefer that to a person giving it a poke with a stick or a shove with his boot. For me that is a grey area, yes an adult dog that won't return to its owner when called is out of control but I do think pups should be given a bit of extra allowance as they are being trained. We all have to learn and for me a pup running up all wiggly wanting to say hello and blowing a recall is not "out of control" .



stuaz said:


> Your missing the point. It's not a fear of a 3 month old, it's the fact it's an unknown when a random dog comes running over.


No I don't think I am missing the point - the point I have been making for pages now is about the appropriateness or otherwise of reprimanding someone elses puppy for running over. Most of us surely can recognise a 3 months old puppy when we see one?


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> the appropriateness or otherwise of reprimanding someone elses puppy for running over.


But if the puppy blew off the owner to go greet someone, isn't it better for the pup to be reprimanded (in an appropriate way) than rewarded for taking off and ignoring the owner? The reality is, most pups will be rewarded for that behavior which actually makes it harder on the owner.

But in the end it's quite simple really. 
If you don't want your dog reprimanded by other dogs or people wielding sticks or feet, then don't put your dog in a position to be reprimanded. 
Yes, we all lose our dogs from time to time, none of us are perfect owners with perfect dogs, but surely we have to accept that when we do lose a dog, we can't control how others are going to react.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> So, because my dog can't be let off in the open I should avoid all areas where loose dogs may be - parks, playing fields, bridleways, public footpaths, byways, country parks, beaches ........
> 
> I am now doomed to pound the pavements with Jack for evermore or pay for the hire of a private field.
> 
> ...


Persistently inconsiderate is the key word there. You yourself have said you give the benefit of the doubt to most dogs/owners you encounter. I'm talking about those one off encounters. A simple puppy/adult dog, non threatening, just ambling over in your direction not out to cause a fight or anything. That is what I questioned about people poking or prodding or whatever you want to call it. Unless your dog has issues which has been determined in this thread numerous times now, then surely poking/prodding that approaching dog wouldn't enter someone's mind as you'd have no reason to think otherwise. If waving a stick is still required just because you despise being approached/invaded, then yes, I do think that is very intolerant and OTT.



ouesi said:


> It's about balance really. I'm not going to overreact and create an issue where there isn't one, but I'm also not going to under react and not avoid an issue when I have the power to do so.
> By the same token, I expect my dogs to ignore other dogs, and have purposely trained for that, so I don't think it's asking too much for others to ignore them.
> 
> I have no desire for my dogs to interact in any way with dogs I don't know.
> ...


So you could realistically keep walking away from an approaching loose dog if your dogs are completely oblivious to it's presence? Unless they're deliberately causing a nuisance and pestering you and you're prevented from walking on.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> But if the puppy blew off the owner to go greet someone, isn't it better for the pup to be reprimanded (in an appropriate way) than rewarded for taking off and ignoring the owner? The reality is, most pups will be rewarded for that behavior which actually makes it harder on the owner.
> 
> But in the end it's quite simple really.
> If you don't want your dog reprimanded by other dogs or people wielding sticks or feet, then don't put your dog in a position to be reprimanded.
> Yes, we all lose our dogs from time to time, none of us are perfect owners with perfect dogs, but surely we have to accept that when we do lose a dog, we can't control how others are going to react.


But how is it your job to reprimand someone else's dog? In the same token you say it isn't your dog's job either. Up to the other owner what they do or do not want to reward surely?


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> So you could realistically keep walking away from an approaching loose dog if your dogs are completely oblivious to it's presence? Unless they're deliberately causing a nuisance and pestering you and you're prevented from walking on.


I don't understand the question. My dogs are not oblivious to other dogs.



Dogloverlou said:


> But how is it your job to reprimand someone else's dog? In the same token you say it isn't your dog's job either. Up to the other owner what they do or do not want to reward surely?


It's my job to protect my dogs. That may involve discouraging another dog from approaching which the dog would perceive as a reprimand.

And that GSD owner wanted to reward his dog with an interaction with my dog, and no, it's not up to the owner what they want to reward. Not when it involves my dog


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> But how is it your job to reprimand someone else's dog?


Which brings us back to blocking being better than having to intervene .....



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Fair enough that your Cavvie told the pup off,


I will add that the Labradoodle took more than one reprimand from my confident Cavvie .........whilst my smaller Cavvie was sat on .........and it only stopped when I intervened. Unfortunately next time I see them coming I will block the Labradoodle pup ......

Of course puppies aren't trained and I totally agree that we make allowance for that ......but just not at the expense of my own dogs welfare.

J


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

evel-lin said:


> Been reading this thread with interest. I've got a 15 month old entire male who has pretty poor manners with other dogs. He does respond to being growled at but he's very bouncy and in their faces. Mostly I avoid other dogs because he's a frustrated greeter, I will set up training sessions where he is taken near to other dogs and is fed for ignoring them. He's improving as he gets older and we do more training and I've got an excellent trainer supporting me with it.
> 
> So my question, is how do dogs learn manners? Is it something that naturally comes with maturity or is it something that needs to be specifically taught? I'm trying to teach him to ignore other dogs and I don't allow him to pester them like in that video posted a few pages back. Do I need to do more to teach manners or would it not matter so much if he'd been taught not to interact with other dogs/is kept away from other dogs


I have always had breeds that are perfectly happy to be with me and had no interest in other dogs but my current two are totally different and also different from each other. The 6 year old is completely nuts, goes hysterical with excitement wanting to greet both dogs and people and has no natural manners at all. She is made to walk to heel and not allowed to race up to people but sorry to say she does sometimes catch me out, mainly because we seldom walk in busy areas so each time I do I am starting again with the training. The 7 year old is a very naturally polite dog who is interested in other people and dogs and will quietly greet them and carry on.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think the clue is in me saying when she was 3 months old. I quite understand now she is a huge lump of dog that people are often frightened by her even when her tail is wagging and she is whining with excitement at the mere thought that the person might say hello to her, therefore if someone shouted "no, go away" at her or blocked her with their legs I would just say sorry and call her away as fast as I could. Only the other day we played dodge some people with a little Westie who looked terrified of her and kept hiding in bushes, and picking their dog up if Indie so much as looked in their direction. We tried our hardest to avoid them and no doubt they were trying to avoid us but eventually our paths crossed and Indie was ready to run over to them (its the people not the dog she wants to say hello to), thankfully she didn't let me down and did a perfect "wait" while I went and put her lead on but had she gone full pelt at them I wouldn't have blamed them for shouting or blocking her from their little dog. However had she been a 3 month old puppy or a 5 month old puppy and they had poked her with a stick or their foot then I'm afraid I would have reacted in a very unladylike fashion indeed.


I am the opposite, I would be so pleased if someone repelled my dog and I would be furious at an owner who got annoyed if I repelled theirs.



Nettles said:


> I really don't know tbh RPH. I'd rather a human scared her off than a dog I don't know having to step in and correct her
> I wouldn't expect every human to be wielding a big stick at her if she went within a few metres of them or beating her with it, but a "poke or a prod" isn't overly aggressive or scary IMO. If she was intent on approaching an on lead dog, (which she did on a couple of occasions :Bag) and puppies are persistent little buggars so don't always listen to "gentle shooing," I'd understand if the owner took charge and prodded her away instead of allowing their dog to do it, and I'd be apologising to them for having to step in on my behalf.


I agree.

At the same time I am horrified by the amount of dogs (or is the owners) who are so antisocial and bad mannered. Dogs should be sociable creatures who can mix well and sort out any problems among themselves. I find it desperately sad that so many are turned into something so different from what they should be.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I don't understand the question. My dogs are not oblivious to other dogs.
> 
> It's my job to protect my dogs. That may involve discouraging another dog from approaching which the dog would perceive as a reprimand.
> 
> And that GSD owner wanted to reward his dog with an interaction with my dog, and no, it's not up to the owner what they want to reward. Not when it involves my dog


You said your dogs are trained to ignore other dogs? So they wouldn't lose their head at an approaching non threatening dog? So the use for a stick or other means to prevent the approach would be redundant.

You said '_isn't it better for the pup to be reprimanded (in an appropriate way) than rewarded for taking off and ignoring the owner' _which isn't your job to determine. No you can't control other peoples responses and reactions, but some sympathy & understanding goes along way in these situations too and has a far more positive effect IME than confrontation.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See I find that quite interesting because it seems to me that many owners define another dog being "out of control" according to the needs of their own dog, so the other dog isn't necessarily "out of control" its just not acting in a way that is acceptable to the dog we happen to be walking at the time.


I think you've got that right.
My last dog didn't like other dogs, it was more nervous aggression rather then anything else. She would bark and chase them away if allowed to do so. So she spent a lot of time being hidden behind me. I found I was annoyed at all those friendly dogs that came over to say hello, wishing they were on a lead, fed up with the more lively ones and so on.
Now I have a dog exactly the opposite who is very friendly, never heard her bark or growl at another dog, wouldn't dream of telling another dog off however silly it's being and very happy to play with all and sundry. Luckily she's polite in her greeting and seems to be able to read other dogs pretty well and doesn't pester those that dont want to know. Consequently I now view approaching dogs not with fear of it all going pear shaped, but happily and with no worries


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Siskin said:


> I think you've got that right.
> My last dog didn't like other dogs, it was more nervous aggression rather then anything else. She would bark and chase them away if allowed to do so. So she spent a lot of time being hidden behind me. I found I was annoyed at all those friendly dogs that came over to say hello, wishing they were on a lead, fed up with the more lively ones and so on.
> Now I have a dog exactly the opposite who is very friendly, never heard her bark or growl at another dog, wouldn't dream of telling another dog off however silly it's being and very happy to play with all and sundry. Luckily she's polite in her greeting and seems to be able to read other dogs pretty well and doesn't pester those that dont want to know. Consequently I now view approaching dogs not with fear of it all going pear shaped, but happily and with no worries


That is very true.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Alrighty then. Question for those who believe it inappropriate to give a pup a shove with a stick.

A woman is a regular visitor to our park with a young pug cross, about ten months old. She lets him offlead as soon as she comes through the gate and he then proceeds to racket round the park, running up to every dog he sees. He isn't aggressive, but very overexcited.

The first time he did it to Rosie, she tried to carry on walking, which is what she always does. When he began bouncing on and off her, she stopped and growled. He carried on, so she air snapped at him. He jumped up with his paws on her head, so she nipped him in the face.

His owner observes all this behaviour from a distance, with happy cries of "he only wants to play".

Do I allow this pup to go through his regular routine and be bitten and allow him to irritate the hell out of Rosie, or do I warn him away, using a stick if necessary?

By the way, he's been practising this behaviour since he was twelve weeks old.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> You said your dogs are trained to ignore other dogs? So they wouldn't lose their head at an approaching non threatening dog? So the use for a stick or other means to prevent the approach would be redundant.


Okay, ignoring a dog is not the same as being oblivious to another dog. My dogs are AWARE of the other dog(s) but will ignore them which in turn usually dissuades the dog from continuing to approach. 
No, they don't lose their head, but that doesn't mean a stick is redundant. Granted I rarely carry a stick with me. My preferred tactic is to pick up a handful of gravel and throw it at the ground in front of the approaching dog. Sometimes I use treats instead of gravel. Which of course some owners have an issue with too because precious poochiekins can't eat anything but dehydrated unicorn steak. 
But bottom line, I deal with dogs so my dogs don't have to.



Dogloverlou said:


> You said '_isn't it better for the pup to be reprimanded (in an appropriate way) than rewarded for taking off and ignoring the owner' _which isn't your job to determine. No you can't control other peoples responses and reactions, but some sympathy & understanding goes along way in these situations too and has a far more positive effect IME than confrontation.


Which is why I said it's about balance. 
I do have a lot of sympathy for owners who can't/won't control their dogs. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. I also have sympathy for those dogs. I am the one who will make sure my dogs do not further arouse a reactive dog by making sure they look away, giving distance, and doing my best to make sure both I and my dogs de-escalate confrontations as much as possible. 
But, I ALSO have sympathy for my own dogs who don't deserve to be bombarded and harassed by random dogs just because they can take it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

And that is the key really - balance and keeping it rational.

I have to agree with RPH though, and It must be area dependent, but I have never encountered all of this drama described on this forum alone with consistently ill mannered dogs on every walk I take. But then maybe I'm not looking for it and something that might bother someone else goes unnoticed by me.

Also helps I walk in mostly isolated country fields daily which I understand is a luxury not everyone has on their doorstep.


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## Peanuts mum (Dec 24, 2016)

I have a small terrier, I live on a footpath so I rarely have her on a lead, she does however have a harness on with a handle on the top. Peanut loves everyone but is very submissive. Greeting people she will race up wag her tail give them a little lap around and then come back. With dogs she runs up then pauses and crawls the rest of the way so I don't generally worry if she heads over to say hello. However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control! Occasionally I havnt been able to grab her quick enough if she was far away but I always shout she friendly and generally her crawling towards the other dog wagging is enough to convince them ! And other dogs not to eat her


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> And that is the key really - balance and keeping it rational.
> 
> I have to agree with RPH though, and It must be area dependent, but I have never encountered all of this drama described on this forum alone with consistently ill mannered dogs on every walk I take. But then maybe I'm not looking for it and something that might bother someone else goes unnoticed by me.
> 
> Also helps I walk in mostly isolated country fields daily which I understand is a luxury not everyone has on their doorstep.


It's not often we meet other dogs when walking locally despite there being plenty living in the village. We deliberately choose to live here because of the huge amount of footpaths within the parish, so I guess we are all pretty much spread out and not often meeting up. We prefer to walk in quiet places so tend to steer clear of the busy spots and like you don't often meet up with what I read about on PF.
It took us a lot of years before we were able to afford to live here and I bless the day we moved in. There has been some problems, it's not been all sweetness and light, I feel very lucky with my lot.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Peanuts mum said:


> I have a small terrier, I live on a footpath so I rarely have her on a lead, she does however have a harness on with a handle on the top. Peanut loves everyone but is very submissive. Greeting people she will race up wag her tail give them a little lap around and then come back. With dogs she runs up then pauses and crawls the rest of the way so I don't generally worry if she heads over to say hello. However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control! Occasionally I havnt been able to grab her quick enough if she was far away but I always shout she friendly and generally her crawling towards the other dog wagging is enough to convince them ! And other dogs not to eat her


#

Why does an offlead dog mean it's good with other dogs? My dogs are usually offlead but I don;t think that warrants other people letting their dogs charge over to mine ... surely wiuth any unknown dog you would be cautious.

One of my dogs is oblivious to other dogs, one does not like oher dogs charging over & the older one couldn't careless ... all different types but personally I don't want any of them having other dogs running over ... & the older GSD makes this perfectly clear!


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I don't think I am missing the point - the point I have been making for pages now is about the appropriateness or otherwise of reprimanding someone elses puppy for running over. Most of us surely can recognise a 3 months old puppy when we see one?


Explain to me why, putting myself, my foot or a stick in between the unknown dog and my dog is a bad thing? What harm am I causing the other dog?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Peanuts mum said:


> I have a small terrier, I live on a footpath so I rarely have her on a lead, she does however have a harness on with a handle on the top. Peanut loves everyone but is very submissive. Greeting people she will race up wag her tail give them a little lap around and then come back. With dogs she runs up then pauses and crawls the rest of the way so I don't generally worry if she heads over to say hello. However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control! Occasionally I havnt been able to grab her quick enough if she was far away but I always shout she friendly and generally her crawling towards the other dog wagging is enough to convince them ! And other dogs not to eat her


Your observation that if a dog is offlead, it should be "good with other dogs and under control!" is very interesting, particularly as your offlead terrier clearly is not under control.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

As it stands now, it's rare we encounter any really annoying dogs but thats because I choose my locations carefully. If I was to walk on 2 of the local open spaces/parks/woods daily then i've no doubt we would encounter what I deem to be out of control dogs every single time. To me, out of control dogs are ones who wont recall, wont take the hint to get lost or run silly lengths just to come and say hello. That doesnt include dogs who are known to be partial to picking a fight yet are still allowed to invade other dogs space with the intent of doing just that.

I dont want to have to deal with that kind of behaviour if I can at all avoid it so we choose to walk less populated areas, places which give us enough view to see what is coming and room to move away from any dog we dont like the look of. On the very infrequent occasions we do use the local parks, due to time constraints, no fuel in the car or whatever, these annoying dogs bug the hell out of me and I really wish we didnt have to put up with it. But unless the dog is winding mine up to the point of retaliation and the owner couldnt care less, or the dog is trying to bite mine, or it's a repeat offender that I have previously asked to call their dog away, then I just inwardly sigh and dont make a deal out of it.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> And that is the key really - balance and keeping it rational.


Which is what I said 15 posts or more ago 


ouesi said:


> *It's about balance really.* I'm not going to overreact and create an issue where there isn't one, but I'm also not going to under react and not avoid an issue when I have the power to do so.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Peanuts mum said:


> I have a small terrier, I live on a footpath so I rarely have her on a lead, she does however have a harness on with a handle on the top. Peanut loves everyone but is very submissive. Greeting people she will race up wag her tail give them a little lap around and then come back. With dogs she runs up then pauses and crawls the rest of the way so I don't generally worry if she heads over to say hello. However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control! Occasionally I havnt been able to grab her quick enough if she was far away but I always shout she friendly and generally her crawling towards the other dog wagging is enough to convince them ! And other dogs not to eat her


"You should never assume. You know what happens when you assume. You make an ass out of you and me".

Just because another dog is off lead, does not make it ok for any dog to approach willy nilly. A dog doesnt have to be on a lead to be under control, and on the flip side being on a lead doesnt necessarily mean under control either.

All of my dogs are off lead and would probably be fine if you're dog approached submissively. However, rude dogs gets very short thrift and sent packing. Mine arent aggressive and I deem them to have good social skills but they dont like their space invaded and arent interested in meets and greets - far too keen on playing with me, sniffing, hunting etc. If I was training and had a toy out, or treats and your dog came over then expect it to get told off in a big way, regardless of whether it was polite or not.

There is little need for my dogs to be on a lead, they are all well behaved and dont interfere with anybody else so why should I keep them tethered to me just in case a dog runs over uninvited and gets snapped at, or bowled over, or seen off? We try to avoid people, I call my dogs to heel when we are passing others, we create as much space as possible to indicate we dont want to interact so if any negative interactions occur then I dont see we're at fault tbh.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See I find that quite interesting because it seems to me that many owners define another dog being "out of control" according to the needs of their own dog, so the other dog isn't necessarily "out of control" its just not acting in a way that is acceptable to the dog we happen to be walking at the time.


Not really. I say I wouldn't rant about a dog coming over with Spen whereas I might have done with Rupert, it doesn't mean the dog approaching Spen is actually under control though, it's just that with Spen it's not generally an issue so I see no need to make a mountain out of a molehill. I meet plenty of dogs I'd deem out of control with Spen simply because their owner can't call them away from other dogs or cyclists or whatever. Just because they're not a problem for me and Spen doesn't mean they're under control.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Peanuts mum said:


> I have a small terrier, I live on a footpath so I rarely have her on a lead, she does however have a harness on with a handle on the top. Peanut loves everyone but is very submissive. Greeting people she will race up wag her tail give them a little lap around and then come back. With dogs she runs up then pauses and crawls the rest of the way so I don't generally worry if she heads over to say hello. However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control! Occasionally I havnt been able to grab her quick enough if she was far away but I always shout she friendly and generally her crawling towards the other dog wagging is enough to convince them ! And other dogs not to eat her


I don't understand your logic. My two are always on lead when there are other dogs around or when we're walking in public. The reason being that as they spend most of their time off leash in an extremely large garden when we're out I like to use the time to keep up with their LL walking.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

With regards to the definition of an out of control dog, my definition would be the same regardless of the kind of dog I owned. Jed is a social butterfly and loves saying hello to other dogs (much to my annoyance!), Jessie wont even look at another dog and will totally ignore but will floor it if it pesters her by touching her and Flynn's default reaction is to grumble at the vast majority of dogs, and escalate it if necessary (in his eyes).

Often Flynn is on bed rest so I just take the collies out, who are really no bother when it comes to other dogs and dont create any issues for me, yet I still hate dogs coming over to us uninvited, it's an annoyance to me probably more than it is to any of my dogs. I dont want dogs jumping up me, trying to pinch treats from my bumbag, trying to get mine to play, trying to see if they are bigger and stronger than my older dogs etc - I just want to walk and be left alone!

So my definition is set, because it's dependent on me largely and not my canine companions.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Which is what I said 15 posts or more ago


Oops  To many posts to be keeping up with!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I used to have the same view about dogs off lead = fine/happy with other dogs....until I joined forum world that is  Again, a popular line of thinking amongst the vast majority of dog owners I would presume.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Alrighty then. Question for those who believe it inappropriate to give a pup a shove with a stick.
> 
> A woman is a regular visitor to our park with a young pug cross, about ten months old. She lets him offlead as soon as she comes through the gate and he then proceeds to racket round the park, running up to every dog he sees. He isn't aggressive, but very overexcited.
> 
> ...


At 10 months old I don't consider a Pug to still be a pup and if as a non pup the owner allows it to continue with its anti social behaviour and you have warned him that your dog will nip his dog if he continues to allow it to do that then fair enough I wouldn't have a problem with blocking that dog with my leg. I wouldn't however prod it with a stick or shove it with my boot unless it was actually attacking my dog.



ouesi said:


> But if the puppy blew off the owner to go greet someone, isn't it better for the pup to be reprimanded (in an appropriate way) than rewarded for taking off and ignoring the owner? The reality is, most pups will be rewarded for that behavior which actually makes it harder on the owner.
> 
> But in the end it's quite simple really.
> If you don't want your dog reprimanded by other dogs or people wielding sticks or feet, then don't put your dog in a position to be reprimanded.
> Yes, we all lose our dogs from time to time, none of us are perfect owners with perfect dogs, but surely we have to accept that when we do lose a dog, we can't control how others are going to react.


Personally I don't have an issue with a puppy "blowing a recall" while they are still puppies and being trained. I think it is intolerant and frankly mean to reprimand someone else's pup for making a mistake and coming up to another dog.



Blitz said:


> I have always had breeds that are perfectly happy to be with me and had no interest in other dogs but my current two are totally different and also different from each other. The 6 year old is completely nuts, goes hysterical with excitement wanting to greet both dogs and people and has no natural manners at all. She is made to walk to heel and not allowed to race up to people but sorry to say she does sometimes catch me out, mainly because we seldom walk in busy areas so each time I do I am starting again with the training. The 7 year old is a very naturally polite dog who is interested in other people and dogs and will quietly greet them and carry on.
> 
> *
> I am the opposite, I would be so pleased if someone repelled my dog and I would be furious at an owner who got annoyed if I repelled theirs.*
> ...


Surely that is a contradiction. You want someone to repel your dog and to be able to repel other dogs without their owner getting annoyed but you think dogs should be able to mix well and sort out and problems themselves. I find that confusing.



stuaz said:


> Explain to me why, putting myself, my foot or a stick in between the unknown dog and my dog is a bad thing? What harm am I causing the other dog?


For the hundredth time putting your foot or a stick between an unknown dog and your dog is not a bad thing, I didn't say it was. I said using a stick to prod or a foot/boot to shove a puppy or a dog not acting in an anti social "out of control" way is inappropriate and uncalled for. Put it another way, I don't like children and am quite intolerant of them. My problem not theirs. When walking in the park if a child comes in my space chasing after their ball or racing along on their new bike but in no other way interfering with me it would not be appropriate for me to bellow at them to clear off and get out of my space (or my dog's space) and it would not be at all appropriate for me to prod them with a stick or shove them with my boot. If I did I would entirely expect their parent to give me a slap.

I actually feel so sorry for people new to this dog owning malarkey, imagine the excitement of getting your first dog, you might be a young couple or a child and you've waited full of anticipation to take little Fido out on its first walk to the park (you've even checked it out to make sure its safe), you've got a lovely matching collar and lead and you think everyone is going to be delighted to meet Fido and Fido is going to make lots of friends with the regular dog walkers at the park. Reality check. You actually meet an owner from Forumland who expects Fido to stay well clear of their dog whether it is off lead or not. If Fido who is overcome with excitement to meet new people and new dogs happens to ignore you doing what it says in the books and making a high pitched excited noise whilst waving lamb chops in the air bounds up to them he gets prodded with a stick or shoved with a foot while the grumpy old Forumlanders shout at you to get your dog under control and stay out of their dog's space. You are confused as you thought the park was everyone's space but apparently not. You go home totally deflated as the reality dawns on you that walking Fido is not going to be quite so much fun as you imagined and is full of unspoken rules about which dog is allowed to go up to which and what is an acceptable means of repelling a dog who is actually doing nothing wrong. You can't wait for puppy classes to begin so you can ask the instructor to explain how you are supposed to socialise Fido with other dogs and people when it would appear the normal thing to do these days is shout at puppies to go away and poke them with a pole if they don't :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Just because they're not a problem for me and Spen doesn't mean they're under control.


This, very much so. 
Just because a particular dog tolerates and can handle antisocial behavior, doesn't make it okay.

I've been on both sides. I've been the owner of the antisocial dog, and I've been the owner of the dog with impeccable dog skills. It almost bothers me more when a dog with good dog skills is expected to put up with rude behavior. 
I have literally grabbed a dog who had jumped up on to Lunar's shoulder to bark in his ear, and unceremoniously handed him back to his owner, and the owner had the gall to be annoyed with me for manhandling her dog. Apparently if my own dog doesn't have a problem with it, I shouldn't either. Lunar had a longer fuse than me, but that doesn't make it okay.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Peanuts mum said:


> However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control!


Sorry I think I would make a mistake if I was walking my dogs on lead and met you asking this question. I think I may accidently admit my dogs are "friendly" without any thought you would assume your dog should be released to run up to them on lead!

Sorry my dogs being lovely girls has no relation to their desire to meet yours whilst they are in a situation to have no benefit (not exactly able to play are they) and no escape. I would still find it rude and inappropriate.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> At 10 months old I don't consider a Pug to still be a pup and if as a non pup the owner allows it to continue with its anti social behaviour and you have warned him that your dog will nip his dog if he continues to allow it to do that then fair enough I wouldn't have a problem with blocking that dog with my leg. I wouldn't however prod it with a stick or shove it with my boot unless it was actually attacking my dog.
> 
> Personally I don't have an issue with a puppy "blowing a recall" while they are still puppies and being trained. I think it is intolerant and frankly mean to reprimand someone else's pup for making a mistake and coming up to another dog.
> 
> ...


Yes, and very intimidating to a new dog owner too who is met with such distaste and judgement from someone who likely knows better and could advise with an experienced & sympathetic attitude rather than harshness. I know in my early days being shouted at to collect my dogs or my dog physically booted/poked/ etc etc would have likely had me in tears! You do toughen up quite quickly, but I'm very appreciative to all the people we have met who have been understanding and helpful when me & my dogs have been the ones at fault.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Alrighty then. Question for those who believe it inappropriate to give a pup a shove with a stick.
> 
> A woman is a regular visitor to our park with a young pug cross, about ten months old. She lets him offlead as soon as she comes through the gate and he then proceeds to racket round the park, running up to every dog he sees. He isn't aggressive, but very overexcited.
> 
> ...


Simple.

As you own a dog that doesn't love being jumped on, you shouldn't be walking your dog in places where you might encounter loose dogs, apparently! 

A local chap stopped walking his adolescent EBS over the playing fields because "there were too many nasty Jack Russell's over there". He said his dog would always cross the field to say hello when he let him off, and the JR's would have a go at him. "He's still a puppy". 

It was very clear which dog he thought was behaving inappropriately, namely NOT HIS! 

The JR's play happily on their own and are fearful of most other dogs who run at them. They are fine if left alone or approached calmly.

Their owner uses a wheeled walking frame so is restricted where he can go and coping with big problem dogs. He redirects his dogs away from other dogs and keeps to the opposite side of the large field.

Again, he should stick to walking on pavements away from anywhere that loose dogs may use


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Personally I don't have an issue with a puppy "blowing a recall" while they are still puppies and being trained. I think it is intolerant and frankly mean to reprimand someone else's pup for making a mistake and coming up to another dog.


I'm beginning to think you think the worst of your fellow forum members. 
What exactly are you envisioning when I say I would prevent a pup from being rewarded for blowing a recall with attention and interaction?
Do I really strike you as the type of person who would go out of my way to hurt a puppy? Do others on here strike you that way? I've certainly never gotten that impression from any of our members....

Here's an example. Bates and I are at the training building all the time, puppies around all the time. Puppy ignores owner to come approach us, I block the puppy, move my dog out of range, maybe even put a foot out to keep the puppy away, and thus make it easier for the owner to regain the pup's attention.

How on earth is that "mean"?!

Or like the example I gave earlier in this thread where a puppy ran out in to the road (you know, where vehicles drive?) to come greet me and OH. The last thing I wanted was for the pup to think running out in to the road was a good thing. So yes, I stomped my foot at the puppy trying to shoo him off. Unfortunately that didn't work so I had to grab him and return him to his yard. Which even though I tried to be as neutral as possible, he still found entertaining.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Simple.
> 
> As you own a dog that doesn't love being jumped on, you shouldn't be walking your dog in places where you might encounter loose dogs, apparently!
> 
> ...


Sadly this is actually a really common attitude for people to have. Shouldn't walk your dog where other dogs are if you don't want to be approached. Shouldn't run/cyle/ride a horse where dogs are if you don't want to be chased. Shouldn't picnic where dogs might be if you don't want your food stolen. Shouldn't take your pram out in public if you don't want it p*ssed on.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I actually feel so sorry for people new to this dog owning malarkey, imagine the excitement of getting your first dog, you might be a young couple or a child and you've waited full of anticipation to take little Fido out on its first walk to the park (you've even checked it out to make sure its safe), you've got a lovely matching collar and lead and you think everyone is going to be delighted to meet Fido and Fido is going to make lots of friends with the regular dog walkers at the park. Reality check. You actually meet an owner from Forumland who expects Fido to stay well clear of their dog whether it is off lead or not. If Fido who is overcome with excitement to meet new people and new dogs happens to ignore you doing what it says in the books and making a high pitched excited noise whilst waving lamb chops in the air bounds up to them he gets prodded with a stick or shoved with a foot while the grumpy old Forumlanders shout at you to get your dog under control and stay out of their dog's space. You are confused as you thought the park was everyone's space but apparently not. You go home totally deflated as the reality dawns on you that walking Fido is not going to be quite so much fun as you imagined and is full of unspoken rules about which dog is allowed to go up to which and what is an acceptable means of repelling a dog who is actually doing nothing wrong. You can't wait for puppy classes to begin so you can ask the instructor to explain how you are supposed to socialise Fido with other dogs and people when it would appear the normal thing to do these days is shout at puppies to go away and poke them with a pole if they don't :Hilarious:Hilarious


If only this was the case tho..... I do understand that for some peopleit is learning 'the rules' as I was one of them & made many mistakes, in no way do I hold myself up as being 'perfect'. 
However in one instance that spring to my mind with me (& in this instance I did evenutally kick the dog for constantly harassing my young GSD), explaining calmly why I did not appreciate their dog running over to mine, etc fell on deaf ears. It was only when I completely lost it, had a full on row that they finally grasped the idea that if their dog ran over again I would kick it again meant that they actually put their dog on alead when they saw me afterwards. It was a shame that it had to come to that & in some ways I deeply regret my behaviour but it worked & no amount of reasning previously had the desired effect (of keeping their dog away fromb mine)


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> For the hundredth time putting your foot or a stick between an unknown dog and your dog is not a bad thing, I didn't say it was. I said using a stick to prod or a foot/boot to shove a puppy or a dog not acting in an anti social "out of control" way is inappropriate and uncalled for. Put it another way, I don't like children and am quite intolerant of them. My problem not theirs. When walking in the park if a child comes in my space chasing after their ball or racing along on their new bike but in no other way interfering with me it would not be appropriate for me to bellow at them to clear off and get out of my space (or my dog's space) and it would not be at all appropriate for me to prod them with a stick or shove them with my boot. If I did I would entirely expect their parent to give me a slap.
> 
> I actually feel so sorry for people new to this dog owning malarkey, imagine the excitement of getting your first dog, you might be a young couple or a child and you've waited full of anticipation to take little Fido out on its first walk to the park (you've even checked it out to make sure its safe), you've got a lovely matching collar and lead and you think everyone is going to be delighted to meet Fido and Fido is going to make lots of friends with the regular dog walkers at the park. Reality check. You actually meet an owner from Forumland who expects Fido to stay well clear of their dog whether it is off lead or not. If Fido who is overcome with excitement to meet new people and new dogs happens to ignore you doing what it says in the books and making a high pitched excited noise whilst waving lamb chops in the air bounds up to them he gets prodded with a stick or shoved with a foot while the grumpy old Forumlanders shout at you to get your dog under control and stay out of their dog's space. You are confused as you thought the park was everyone's space but apparently not. You go home totally deflated as the reality dawns on you that walking Fido is not going to be quite so much fun as you imagined and is full of unspoken rules about which dog is allowed to go up to which and what is an acceptable means of repelling a dog who is actually doing nothing wrong. You can't wait for puppy classes to begin so you can ask the instructor to explain how you are supposed to socialise Fido with other dogs and people when it would appear the normal thing to do these days is shout at puppies to go away and poke them with a pole if they don't :Hilarious:Hilarious


I think we are debating different points then because I am not saying to boot or prod every dog that invades my dogs space unless the situation warrants it. E.g if the dog continues to invade the space of my dog and my dog is clearly distressed and the owner is not making any attempts to address the situation.

As for your Fido analogy, it just reminded me of the "my dog just wants to play" type owners!

What the owner should do, is ASK the other owner! It's not difficult really and then the interaction can be controlledand if they have a over excited dog then it can learn how to interact properly.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Yes, and very intimidating to a new dog owner too who is met with such distaste and judgement from someone who likely knows better and could advise with an experienced & sympathetic attitude rather than harshness. I know in my early days being shouted at to collect my dogs or my dog physically booted/poked/ etc etc would have likely had me in tears! You do toughen up quite quickly, but I'm very appreciative to all the people we have met who have been understanding and helpful when me & my dogs have been the ones at fault.


I am someone who has repeatedly been sympathetic, understanding, helpful, blah blah - sometimes to no avail.

I don't go looking for nuisance dogs, I just go out and walk my dog


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> If only this was the case tho..... I do understand that for some peopleit is learning 'the rules' as I was one of them & made many mistakes, in no way do I hold myself up as being 'perfect'.
> However in one instance that spring to my mind with me (& in this instance I did evenutally kick the dog for constantly harassing my young GSD), explaining calmly why I did not appreciate their dog running over to mine, etc fell on deaf ears. It was only when I completely lost it, had a full on row that they finally grasped the idea that if their dog ran over again I would kick it again meant that they actually put their dog on alead when they saw me afterwards. It was a shame that it had to come to that & in some ways I deeply regret my behaviour but it worked & no amount of reasning previously had the desired effect (of keeping their dog away fromb mine)


Yup, a lot of the people I've spoken to about their dogs running up (politely, Spen's not bothered so no need for me to really be annoyed) just say that theirs is friendly and if someone doesn't want their dog approached by others they shouldn't be walking it. Or that "vicious" dogs should be muzzled. Their dog isn't a problem in their opinion, it's the dogs who don't want to play or don't appreciate obnoxious dogs pestering them or who are elderly and infirm who are the problem


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Think it's very easy to say that some of us must go looking for trouble when you yourself don't have any of the problems others encounter. I myself can't drive and live in an area with a huge number of dogs, we can't walk up the street without seeing one or two never mind go to the park or the river or down the woods. As I've said before, in a 2 hour walk on a nice day we can easily encounter 50 dogs, not all of them polite or sociable but most of them allowed to approach any dog they see. Is it any wonder I've seen a fair amount of "drama" as people like to call it? And this is with a tolerant dog who likes to meet and greet, it was absolute hell with an aggressive dog!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I'm beginning to think you think the worst of your fellow forum members.
> What exactly are you envisioning when I say I would prevent a pup from being rewarded for blowing a recall with attention and interaction?
> Do I really strike you as the type of person who would go out of my way to hurt a puppy? Do others on here strike you that way? I've certainly never gotten that impression from any of our members....
> 
> ...


I certainly don't think your intentions are mean, but I would question some other members tbh. Blocking a dog from approaching with your leg is different than poking it with a stick IMO in that blocking is simply that and poking/prodding/jabbing is harsher and with more potential for injury. The scenario you described above I would personally have no issue with if it was my puppy in question.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Peanuts mum said:


> However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....*if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs* and under control!


Please don't assume that. A dog that I walk (not mine) is absolutely terrified of other dogs, and though she has never even attempted to hurt another dog she will avoid them at all costs. She stays off lead even when we encounter other dogs because if I put her on a lead she would have a total meltdown because she knows she can't get away. Off lead she is fine and just gives them a wide berth.

On the one occasion that a puppy has come running up to her I stepped in front of her, blocked the puppy and made sure it couldn't get to her until the owner called it away. No drama. Yesterday I encountered the same puppy, this time when I was with my dogs. It went running straight up to Harley who tensed up as it started sniffing his face, and had it continued to bother him I'd have stepped in again, but the owner called it and off it went. Again, no drama. I don't know what people are thinking when some members say that they will block a puppy or stop it from approaching their dogs, but I would never be mean to any dog (puppy or otherwise) and I have certainly never berated or shouted at another owner (apart from the ones that stood watching while their two dogs harassed and snapped at the dog I was walking).

I expect to be approached by other dogs when out walking and especially by puppies who are not trained yet. I don't get angry or upset or work myself up into a frenzy! I just sometimes need to intervene. And it depends very much on the behaviour of the dog that is approaching. There is a big difference between a puppy that is just cheerfully ambling along, and a puppy that is galloping straight for us at top speed, limbs flying all over the place, especially if that puppy is much bigger than my dogs.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Peanuts mum said:


> I have a small terrier, I live on a footpath so I rarely have her on a lead, she does however have a harness on with a handle on the top. Peanut loves everyone but is very submissive. Greeting people she will race up wag her tail give them a little lap around and then come back. With dogs she runs up then pauses and crawls the rest of the way so I don't generally worry if she heads over to say hello. However if a dog is on a lead I always grab her and ask if there dog is friendly before I let her off again. As far as I'm concerned if your dog is on a lead then it might not like other dogs so why risk it....if it's off it's lead it should be good with other dogs and under control! Occasionally I havnt been able to grab her quick enough if she was far away but I always shout she friendly and generally her crawling towards the other dog wagging is enough to convince them ! And other dogs not to eat her


This attitude really annoys me.

There's absolutely no reason why my dog shouldn't be off lead. She's not aggressive in the slightest and she has fantastic recall. She loves nothing more than having a run around after a ball or sniffing out things with her nose. Just because she's off lead doesn't mean that she's happy to be approached by another dog though.

If your dog were to approach her, she'd be absolutely terrified. She'd try and climb up my leg to get away, peeing all over herself and me in the process and once your dog left her alone, our walk would be ruined and we'd have to turn around and go home again as by then, she'd be too stressed to carry on with the walk. At the minute, she'd be stressed and anxious for the next day or two as well.

Even when my dog is lying on the ground yelping with her tail tucked between her legs and peeing over herself and I ask people to call their dog away, they still insist that "oh he's fine, he just wants to play!" and when I tell them my dog doesn't, I'm told she should be kept on lead. It makes no sense! For a start, putting her on lead makes her more anxious as she feels trapped and can't get away. She's not causing any trouble, she's not a threat to anyone whatsoever, she's under control, she's minding her own business and happily playing with me and her ball and ignoring everything else that's going on around her. Quite simply, she just wants to enjoy her walk without being approached by other dogs.


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## Luckymax (Feb 25, 2013)

I am so glad your Dante is ok, we can never be too careful. My dear old Max was attacked by two dogs during his evening walk few years ago. He was a shih-tzu and the other 2 were alsatian and mongrel. Regrettably for my Max he was lucky to survive the attack but he lost an eye. I may be wrong but I do truly believe it's not the dogs whatever size or breed but us as the owners who are the culprits. Wish you both well


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Sadly this is actually a really common attitude for people to have. Shouldn't walk your dog where other dogs are if you don't want to be approached. Shouldn't run/cyle/ride a horse where dogs are if you don't want to be chased. Shouldn't picnic where dogs might be if you don't want your food stolen. Shouldn't take your pram out in public if you don't want it p*ssed on.


Walking with about 20+ greyhounds (all on lead) on a fundraising walk through a local Country Park on a Bridlepath (open to pedestrians, horses and dogs).

We always keep an eye out for other users as with such a large number of dogs and people all together we are mindful not to block pathways, not a good idea for little dogs to move through the pack, etc. and we are trying to promote the dogs as great pets!

Two horses were walking behind us and catching up, so we called out to our pack to move to one side of the (albeit wide) track to let them pass.

One of the horses was a bit spooky and it's rider had a bit of a struggle to get him to pass. I think one of our humans might have helped by accompanying the horse at it's head - no real drama and the riders thanked us and we all exchanged pleasantries.

Apart from one greyhound walker who actually said that if the horse is nervous of dogs they shouldn't be riding it in a public park!

Several of us put her right.

It's a huge open space, with designated tracks (some are horse free - not this one - it was designated a bridle path!).

There is plenty of room for everyone to share and enjoy, with a little consideration!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I'm beginning to think you think the worst of your fellow forum members.
> What exactly are you envisioning when I say I would prevent a pup from being rewarded for blowing a recall with attention and interaction?
> Do I really strike you as the type of person who would go out of my way to hurt a puppy? Do others on here strike you that way? I've certainly never gotten that impression from any of our members....
> 
> ...


No I think the worst of "some" forum members but by no means all  Pretty much like you do I believe. Did I say you strike me as the type of person who would go out of the way to hurt a puppy? Have some other people said they would prod or try to frighten away a puppy? Yes. Do I think the examples you gave are mean? No.



stuaz said:


> I think we are debating different points then because I am not saying to boot or prod every dog that invades my dogs space unless the situation warrants it. E.g if the dog continues to invade the space of my dog and my dog is clearly distressed and the owner is not making any attempts to address the situation.
> 
> As for your Fido analogy, it just reminded me of the "my dog just wants to play" type owners!
> 
> What the owner should do, is ASK the other owner! It's not difficult really and then the interaction can be controlledand if they have a over excited dog then it can learn how to interact properly.


Yes I think its safe to say we are debating different points - I was talking about prodding or shoving with a foot a puppy or an adult dog that is behaving perfectly normally by coming over to another off lead dog unless it then behaves anti socially. I do not consider a dog coming up to my dog in a public place anti social/out of control/or not entitled to share the same public space as my dogs. Fido in my analogy is a new puppy going out for his first walk so how would said new owner know they have to ask another owner if its OK for Fido to meet their dog who is off lead and in a public park? Fido is not an over excited dog he is a YOUNG PUPPY


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I think the worst of "some" forum members but by no means all  Pretty much like you do I believe. Did I say you strike me as the type of person who would go out of the way to hurt a puppy? Have some other people said they would prod or try to frighten away a puppy? Yes. Do I think the examples you gave are mean? No.
> 
> Yes I think its safe to say we are debating different points - I was talking about prodding or shoving with a foot a puppy or an adult dog that is behaving perfectly normally by coming over to another off lead dog unless it then behaves anti socially. I do not consider a dog coming up to my dog in a public place anti social/out of control/or not entitled to share the same public space as my dogs. Fido in my analogy is a new puppy going out for his first walk so how would said new owner know they have to ask another owner if its OK for Fido to meet their dog who is off lead and in a public park? Fido is not an over excited dog he is a YOUNG PUPPY


Then Fido should be on a lead until his recall is reliable.

How can allowing a puppy to practise running to other dogs at will be a good thing?

As far as I'm concerned, Rosie should be able to walk by my heel, offlead in a public park without having to tolerate pups running up and jumping all over her.

I know that, if pushed, she will bite a pup. I don't want any puppy to be bitten, so that puts me in a no win situation.

If I push the puppy away, that's wrong, so the alternative is to allow Rosie to sort the situation out, which I don't want, and to allow Rudi to see Rosie behaving that way, which I want even less.

All because some owners can't or won't take responsibility and recognise that their pup is being a bl**dy nuisance.

A dog/pup doesn't have to be aggressive to cause problems to someone with a reactive dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Surely that is a contradiction. You want someone to repel your dog and to be able to repel other dogs without their owner getting annoyed but you think dogs should be able to mix well and sort out and problems themselves. I find that confusing.


Not a contradiction. I have a naturally very rude dog who is OTT and is going to learn a lot quicker if she is repelled. I am more than happy for pleasant dogs to come up to mine and would like other owners to be happy for mine to approach politely but I would repel a rude dog that was upsetting mine, whatever age it was, and would not appreciate an owner getting all precious about it.
I also think that the only reason this even needs to be discussed is because most forum owners do not like their dogs mixing which I find sad.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I think the worst of "some" forum members but by no means all  Pretty much like you do I believe.


You're wrong there. I don't think any of our regular members - certainly not the ones posting on this thread would go out of their way to hurt a puppy. That you would think that of a member is frankly rather sad 

As for any other "assumptions" I have made on this thread, I can assure you, they are not baseless. 
FWIW, I don't judge people for the tools they use, but I do judge people for lying about it


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Not a contradiction. I have a naturally very rude dog who is OTT and is going to learn a lot quicker if she is repelled. I am more than happy for pleasant dogs to come up to mine and would like other owners to be happy for mine to approach politely but I would repel a rude dog that was upsetting mine, whatever age it was, and would not appreciate an owner getting all precious about it.
> I also think that the only reason this even needs to be discussed is because most forum owners do not like their dogs mixing which I find sad.


And also that some dogs don't want to mix with others.

Rosie certainly doesn't and she shouldn't be forced to by casual, irresponsible owners who allow their dog to entertain itself.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Nettles said:


> This attitude really annoys me.
> 
> There's absolutely no reason why my dog shouldn't be off lead. She's not aggressive in the slightest and she has fantastic recall. She loves nothing more than having a run around after a ball or sniffing out things with her nose. Just because she's off lead doesn't mean that she's happy to be approached by another dog though.
> 
> ...


Its a classic mistake people make. They assume that because their dog is no threat it can be off lead and approach other dogs and that there is nothing wrong with that but its just not acceptable. On lead or off lead greetings between dogs have to be agreed between the owners first, having established that each party and in particular the dogs are going to be ok doing so. Why don't people understand this simple premise?

It amazes me when we are out and Duchess is off lead, we see people approaching, so I make Duchess come to me and sit whilst we wait for the approaching dog to pass and the dogs owner says something along the lines off "your dog has a problem with other dogs does she"?
"No she does not but I don't know how your dog is around other dogs do I" is the answer they get. They really are clueless some of them.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If I had a young pup I would be very wary of letting him approach other strange dogs without at least checking with their owners on whether they are happy or friendly around other dogs.


Blitz said:


> Not a contradiction. I have a naturally very rude dog who is OTT and is going to learn a lot quicker if she is repelled. I am more than happy for pleasant dogs to come up to mine and would like other owners to be happy for mine to approach politely but I would repel a rude dog that was upsetting mine, whatever age it was, and would not appreciate an owner getting all precious about it.
> I also think that the only reason this even needs to be discussed is because most forum owners do not like their dogs mixing which I find sad.


Jack gets to mix with other dogs but because he has to be on lead in the open (my fault of course) he is limited then to doing so with other friendly, calm dogs who won't frustrate the hell out of him.

The thuggish dogs I confess to avoiding - not for my benefit though.

I think it's possible for all dogs and their owners to strike a happy balance, but that takes consideration from everyone.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Then Fido should be on a lead until his recall is reliable.
> 
> How can allowing a puppy to practise running to other dogs at will be a good thing?
> 
> ...


Fido in my analogy is a young pup on his first walk and the owner is "trying" following text book methods to call him back so I didn't say allowing a pup to practice running at other dogs was a good idea, just that poor Fido's owners are going to have to learn fast that there is some sort of unspoken rule about space around some dogs but not others and that some owners will be pretty mean to Fido to get him to go away. I do understand a dog doesn't have to be aggressive to cause problems to someone with a reactive dog as I've repeatedly said I've had that reactive dog - and she was on a lead and muzzled so she couldn't bite a dog who happened to wander up to her whether by accident or owner not bothering to recall. Accidents do happen, have you never come round a corner or stopped to pick up a poo and suddenly a dog is there you hadn't seen?



Blitz said:


> Not a contradiction. I have a naturally very rude dog who is OTT and is going to learn a lot quicker if she is repelled. I am more than happy for pleasant dogs to come up to mine and would like other owners to be happy for mine to approach politely but I would repel a rude dog that was upsetting mine, whatever age it was, and would not appreciate an owner getting all precious about it.
> I also think that the only reason this even needs to be discussed is because most forum owners do not like their dogs mixing which I find sad.


Liked for the last sentence which is what I'm saying - is it fair to berate another owner or repel/poke/shove their dog or pup because you (general) don't like your dog mixing with other dogs?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sweety said:


> And also that some dogs don't want to mix with others.
> 
> Rosie certainly doesn't and she shouldn't be forced to by casual, irresponsible owners who allow their dog to entertain itself.


Why doesnt she though, is it to do with you, or an experience in the past or what. If there is a reason then it is reasonable to request other owners to keep their dogs out of her way.



cbcdesign said:


> Its a classic mistake people make. They assume that because their dog is no threat it can be off lead and approach other dogs and that there is nothing wrong with that but its just not acceptable. On lead or off lead greetings between dogs have to be agreed between the owners first, having established that each party and in particular the dogs are going to be ok doing so. Why don't people understand this simple premise?
> 
> It amazes me when we are out and Duchess is off lead, we see people approaching, so I make Duchess come to me and sit whilst we wait for the approaching dog to pass and the dogs owner says something along the lines off "your dog has a problem with other dogs does she"?
> "No she does not but I don't know how your dog is around other dogs do I" is the answer they get. They really are clueless some of them.


Very commendable I suppose but this is exactly what makes me sad. Dogs are just not allowed to be dogs.

The thing that really gets me, which is 100 percent owner, is those that constantly throw something, with or without a ball launcher, in the vicinity of other dogs who are beside themselves with excitement and then have to be kept on the lead to stop them chasing after the 'toy'


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2016)

Blitz said:


> Why doesnt she though, is it to do with you, or an experience in the past or what.


Why can't it just be that not all dogs are social butterflies. Just like not all people are?
I'm the kind of person who will strike up a conversation with a stranger on a bus, but many people prefer to be totally ignored. I try to read people and see if they want to talk or not, but I'm very happy to meet new people and talk to strangers. Not all people are. Does that mean that I'm "normal" and others aren't? Or that I had a good upbringing and others didn't? Of course not. It just means that humans - like dogs, are a diverse group of different personalities with broad parameters for what is considered normal.

Breez prefers to believe no other dogs in the world exist other than the few she has deemed worthy. She's a bitch, what can I say? Bates would love to meet everyone and anyone, but he also has a super short fuse, and despite the fact that he is an obnoxious jerkface most of the time, he has no patience for that sort of behavior in other dogs. So it's really best for all involved that his interactions be carefully monitored.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> If I had a young pup I would be very wary of letting him approach other strange dogs without at least checking with their owners on whether they are happy or friendly around other dogs.


Thats what I dont understand...people basically have a baby animal that they presumably care about and are happy to let it run up to other dogs with no knowledge of what will happen. And the fact some of them are happy for said baby animal to get bitten coz 'its the only way they'll learn' is frankly astonishing. Yet it seems to happen all the time.



Blitz said:


> Why doesnt she though, is it to do with you, or an experience in the past or what. If there is a reason then it is reasonable to request other owners to keep their dogs out of her way.


My antisocial girls never really had a chance as they had too many interactions with rude and bullying dogs from an early age. For some reason other dogs never actually take any notice of their warning signs either until they have to really start barking and air snapping seriously. Not that the owners are much better TBH, makes me :Banghead when I hear how cute or funny other owners think it is when my dogs freak out or react badly in some way.
I do way more road walks these days coz I just dont want to have to deal with it all!:Shy


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Why doesnt she though, is it to do with you, or an experience in the past or what. If there is a reason then it is reasonable to request other owners to keep their dogs out of her way.
> 
> Very commendable I suppose but this is exactly what makes me sad. Dogs are just not allowed to be dogs.
> 
> The thing that really gets me, which is 100 percent owner, is those that constantly throw something, with or without a ball launcher, in the vicinity of other dogs who are beside themselves with excitement and then have to be kept on the lead to stop them chasing after the 'toy'


No, there isn't a reason.

As a pup, she was very interested, (too interested), in other dogs.

As she grew older, she became less and less interested and now doesn't acknowledge other dogs.

It's just the way she is. She is fine with Rudi and other dogs she knows. Strange dogs she has no interest in and actively dislikes them barging into her space.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Very commendable I suppose but this is exactly what makes me sad. Dogs are just not allowed to be dogs.


I don't see it like that, its just a precaution and I think a necessary one in my case when most dogs we meet are small and Duchess is a thumping great big German Shepherd.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Thats what I dont understand...people basically have a baby animal that they presumably care about and are happy to let it run up to other dogs with no knowledge of what will happen. And the fact some of them are happy for said baby animal to get bitten coz 'its the only way they'll learn' is frankly astonishing. Yet it seems to happen all the time.
> 
> My antisocial girls never really had a chance as they had too many interactions with rude and bullying dogs from an early age. For some reason other dogs never actually take any notice of their warning signs either until they have to really start barking and air snapping seriously. Not that the owners are much better TBH, makes me :Banghead when I hear how cute or funny other owners think it is when my dogs freak out or react badly in some way.
> I do way more road walks these days coz I just dont want to have to deal with it all!:Shy


It's really hard to train a dog not to get reactive (for whatever reason: excitement/fear/aggression/bad start in life) at the sight of another dog when it's running over at speed and jumping on it's head! 

We are told to keep our reactive dogs at a distance far enough away to remain calm and praise/treat so they learn to stay relaxed, or ignore, etc.

Yeah - that's what some of us try to do 

Then we get accused of having badly trained or antisocial dogs, or we are precious and are preventing our dogs from being dogs! :Banghead

That's why I find avoidance is the easiest way.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nettles said:


> This attitude really annoys me.
> 
> There's absolutely no reason why my dog shouldn't be off lead. She's not aggressive in the slightest and she has fantastic recall. She loves nothing more than having a run around after a ball or sniffing out things with her nose. Just because she's off lead doesn't mean that she's happy to be approached by another dog though.
> 
> ...


And if you had her on lead it wouldn't stop other dogs running over anyway since most people can't recall their dog in my experience. And then it would be your fault for having her on lead. You're damned whatever you do if you have a dog who's not super confident and super social.


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## Peanuts mum (Dec 24, 2016)

Ok wrong end of stick I think!
What I was trying to get across was,
My dog is very well trained she doesn't need a lead because she always stays at heel.
Forgive me for thinking some people like to let there dogs socialise.
I merely meant I keep her with me and by my side, if another dog is off a lead and approaching peanut I tend to think (hope) that there dog is friendly. Peanut will greet other dogs as I earlier described but she is disinterested and will then walk off...If someone has a dog on a lead I always ask if their dog is ok with other dogs, if not I stand to one side and keep hold of her.
Please bare in mind that peanut is tiny and has been poked to the ground several times by bigger dogs, she will grumble if this happens more than once but I have usually intervened by this point.
She is under control but I am sure we have all had that moment when they are root By through the hedges and another dog appeared from no where !
I walk her in public parks and people have to get close enough to smile at me with there dog roaming of a lead, for me to let her interact.if I could see that their dog was nervous or backing off I would do something about it.
I do not just let her bound up to strange dogs.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> And if you had her on lead it wouldn't stop other dogs running over anyway since most people can't recall their dog in my experience. And then it would be your fault for having her on lead. You're damned whatever you do if you have a dog who's not super confident and super social.


I would agree that most people (round here at least) cannot recall their dog. I know very, very few dogs with good recall and the owners don't think it's an issue because "they'll come back eventually" During the summer, a woman told me she has to allow at least half an hour at the end of every walk to CATCH her dog and put him back on lead  Fair enough, he wasn't bothering us.. He was quite happy spending half an hour dodging his owner, but could you be arsed with that after every walk?

So no, having Phoebe on lead isn't going to make a blind bit of difference anyway. Especially when she was on lead, on a main road leading onto a duel carriageway and we were approached by an off lead JRT who "is normally very friendly, he and only snaps at dogs on leads" Oh ok, sorry! That's my fault. I'll let my dog run amongst the traffic on a 60mph road just so your dog doesn't have to be put on lead to prevent it nipping mine :Banghead


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Quote
I think it's possible for all dogs and their owners to strike a happy balance, but that takes consideration from everyone.
Unquote

Saw a prime example of this working this morning.

I was skirting the very large playing field behind my house when I spotted Jack's BFF enter in the far corner (she's fear reactive). We headed towards each other - both on lead.

A lady with an elderly dog who likes to mooch about off lead without being bothered by others. On occasions when her owner and I stop to chat, she won't even approach Jack so I hold him close. 

In another corner is a chap with a GSD who is always on a flexi and never mixes with others - I don't know for sure but I think he's FA/DA.

BTW - I recognise that, according to some, none of us should be in this field as our dogs have "issues" and it's often used by people with loose dogs, but hey hoo! 

In another corner enters a couple with a loose, bouncy lab that proceeds to run ahead of them, some distance.

The couple managed to walk the entire perimeter of the field, while the rest of us did the same at varying points and distances from each other, without that dog being a nuisance to any of us or our dogs.

Each time the lab started to get anywhere near any of us, his owners called him and he ran back to them each time.

Perfick!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I also think that the only reason this even needs to be discussed is because most forum owners do not like their dogs mixing which I find sad.


Not entirely true. No, I dont like my dogs mixing with strange dogs and I dont like them mixing when they are 'working' (i.e in a training class, on a workshop etc) and we avoid dogs out and about as much as is physically possible.

However, I do like my dogs to mix with friends dogs, and I like them to meet any new dogs that belong to people I know, and I dont mind going on group walks if I know the people who are going are dog savvy. So it's not a case of not wanting them to mix, I just like to be selective about when and with whom they mix.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> Not entirely true. No, I dont like my dogs mixing with strange dogs and I dont like them mixing when they are 'working' (i.e in a training class, on a workshop etc) and we avoid dogs out and about as much as is physically possible.
> 
> However, I do like my dogs to mix with friends dogs, and I like them to meet any new dogs that belong to people I know, and I dont mind going on group walks if I know the people who are going are dog savvy. So it's not a case of not wanting them to mix, I just like to be selective about when and with whom they mix.


Couldn't have put it better. I'm sure people round here think I'm an antisocial so and so as I always avoid doggy meet and greets on walks. Actually, my dogs mix with lots of other dogs, however, these are dogs I know. When I'm out on a walk, that is time for me and my dogs to spend together. We do bits of training, frisbee, it's our quality time. Since my son was born we value it more than ever.

I don't go out on walks to be completely ignorant of my dogs while they bog off and pester every other dog in sight...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Why can't it just be that not all dogs are social butterflies. Just like not all people are?
> I'm the kind of person who will strike up a conversation with a stranger on a bus, but many people prefer to be totally ignored. I try to read people and see if they want to talk or not, but I'm very happy to meet new people and talk to strangers. Not all people are. Does that mean that I'm "normal" and others aren't? Or that I had a good upbringing and others didn't? Of course not. It just means that humans - like dogs, are a diverse group of different personalities with broad parameters for what is considered normal.
> 
> Breez prefers to believe no other dogs in the world exist other than the few she has deemed worthy. She's a bitch, what can I say? Bates would love to meet everyone and anyone, but he also has a super short fuse, and despite the fact that he is an obnoxious jerkface most of the time, he has no patience for that sort of behavior in other dogs. So it's really best for all involved that his interactions be carefully monitored.


oh I agree - and I am fairly sociable and will strike up a conversation on a bus or waiting to be served in a shop etc. I do not like parties as I struggle to hear what is being said (always have) so I tend to avoid those sort of things. If I had a dog that was nervous or aggressive round other dogs I think I would not walk them where other owners want their dogs to enjoy their walks in a more social way. After all if you are in the minority surely you have to bow down to the majority. Having said that, at our holiday cottage it is very very busy walking areas and Toffee is far too OTT to allow her to barge up to everyone - very much a work in progress but I enjoy walking on the beach and on the front so I do it and have to be careful. If it was a case of her being scared or aggressive though I would not walk there although tbh I have never had a dog approach us, they all seem very well behaved. I also walk in places where it is unlikely we will meet other dogs so I can let her run around freely and not have to be constantly called back and 'trained'.

I still find it odd that so many people have to keep their dogs on the lead and are not prepared to let them play. I met someone locally in a fairly popular dog walking area who seemed so relieved to find someone that actually let their dogs intereact.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

A dog doesnt have to be fearful or aggressive to not want to mix with other dogs. Where should these dogs be walked?

I dont like socialising, I dont like talking to strangers, does that mean I shouldnt go to Tesco?

I dont want to be chatted up, does that mean I shouldnt go to a pub?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Not entirely true. No, I dont like my dogs mixing with strange dogs and I dont like them mixing when they are 'working' (i.e in a training class, on a workshop etc) and we avoid dogs out and about as much as is physically possible.
> 
> However, I do like my dogs to mix with friends dogs, and I like them to meet any new dogs that belong to people I know, and I dont mind going on group walks if I know the people who are going are dog savvy. So it's not a case of not wanting them to mix, I just like to be selective about when and with whom they mix.


Same here. When I first got Archer we did lots of playing & he didn't really get to mix with any dogs apart from my older two (although we were around lots of other dogs at training classes, etc). I wanted to build a bond with him & make sure I was the best thing ever so him thinking every dog he met he could play with wasn't going to help. I probably was quite extreme with this but I couldn't have another dog who was off chasing wildlife, etc & it's worked as he has no interested in ther dogs & his reall is spot on.

Now I have that I am more relaxed & we do got out with other dogs & he's great with them but I also do not want unknown dogs running over to him despite the fact he has no issues with them .... why would I? He gets plenty of interaction & it's usually when we are training that we have this problem. I've been told that its my fault for having toomuch fun with my dog, my fault for not letting him join in with 'the pack' (the old ladies who stand around chatting whilst their fluffy white dogs run riot), my fault becuase he's an entire male, my fault because he's on/off lead ..... if only people who just come & collect their dog & apologise then there wouldn't be an issue (I have had to do that with mine prevously). But mostly they can't & make out it's me with the problem despite me tucking myself away in a corner of the park & making it obvious we want to be on our own.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> A dog doesnt have to be fearful or aggressive to not want to mix with other dogs. Where should these dogs be walked?
> 
> I dont like socialising, I dont like talking to strangers, does that mean I shouldnt go to Tesco?
> 
> I dont want to be chatted up, does that mean I shouldnt go to a pub?


It does mean that if you go to places where a lot of people want to be sociable you have to put up with it. Our Tesco seems to be the local meeting place and can be a nightmare if you are in a hurry, though of course if I go in there when I have time to kill no one speaks to me! There are plenty of places you can go with dogs where you will not have to mix, surely you choose according to your likes and dislikes. When we lived in an urban area we chose where to live according to the dog walking.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> If I had a dog that was nervous or aggressive round other dogs I think I would not walk them where other owners want their dogs to enjoy their walks in a more social way. After all if you are in the minority surely you have to bow down to the majority.


It's really not always that simple though. I can't drive and live in an area with a huge dog population. You can't even walk down the street without the risk of someones dog coming over, either off lead or because the owner will purposely come over with it. I didn't walk in off lead areas yet had almost daily encounters with other dogs when I had Rupert despite my obvious efforts to create space and avoid. Extremely busy roads make it difficult sometimes to cross over in time and people won't generally wait for you to be able to do so. We can have dogs in front, behind and coming up side streets at the same time so leaving us nowhere to go to avoid getting too close.

I had a Lab drag a small child over to him then apparently it was my fault when he attacked and the lab ran away dragging small child and causing him to hit his head.
I had a poodle sent across the road to "say hello" on a flexi lead.
I had a rottie rush across a busy road at rush hour to attack Rupert.
I had a shih tzu type attack him while we crossed a fairly busy car park.
I had 5 dogs surround us in the street with no owners in sight in Germany.
I had someone walk their puppy up to him because "he needs to learn that not all dogs are friendly".

That's just off the top of my head. All in areas where you should be able to walk your dog without it interacting with other dogs. I resorted to walking in the middle of the night in the end just to avoid the hassle. Which isn't something that would be practical now. So yeah, it's often easier said than done unless you can drive and/or live in an area where it's easy to avoid other dogs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blitz said:


> It does mean that if you go to places where a lot of people want to be sociable you have to put up with it. Our Tesco seems to be the local meeting place and can be a nightmare if you are in a hurry, though of course if I go in there when I have time to kill no one speaks to me! There are plenty of places you can go with dogs where you will not have to mix, surely you choose according to your likes and dislikes. When we lived in an urban area we chose where to live according to the dog walking.


I do agree with you to a point, my older GSD is not a sociable dog & does not react well to unknown dogs running over to her so I would actively avoid certain places (I am lucky in that I am not short of places to walk) as it's my dog who has the problem & I accept that. But .... I still think people should be respectful of others & not let their dogs just do what they want.

A coupe of years ago at a local dog show a woman had ought her reactive dog that was covered in 'I need space' yellow stuff & was moaning about how many dogs still came to close which I thought was unbeliveable, she had chosen to go to an area where there were lots of dogs in close proximity & it was unfair on others & mainly her poor dog who was obviously quite distressed.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Blitz said:


> and are not prepared to let them play.


Ah ....and to me this is the crux of it. Humans are absolutely obsessed that their (adult) dogs must want *and need* to play with everyone in the park and that an owner whose dog doesn't play is somehow being cruel. Or they presume the dog has an issue.

Why? When I was six I probably used to skip up to everyone in the park and play with kids i didn't know on the slide and squeal when we played .....but I grew out of it. Nowadays, I might nod to passing strangers or have a short chat in Tesco's but I don't run off down the aisle with them playing chase .....

Well, surprise surprise my six adult dogs grew out of playing. As adults they will hunt imaginary rabbits, retrieve, sniff, scent, and pretend to chase phesants and they take part in Agility and Obedience but play with a random dog in the park ....nah...they just aren't interested. And all mine are happy, confident, friendly outgoing dogs.

However, we are rather breeding for the retention of juvenile behaviour and looks at the moment with invention of the many designer cross breeds so I suspect that some of these breeds will never grow out of playing .......

J.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I still find it odd that so many people have to keep their dogs on the lead and are not prepared to let them play. I met someone locally in a fairly popular dog walking area who seemed so relieved to find someone that actually let their dogs intereact.


There can be lots of reasons why someone keeps their dog on a lead. In my case it's because Thor has the recall of a stone deaf Turtle, selective hearing at it's best (worst).
If he were to clock a Squirrel or Cat it would be bye bye Thor, he also loves people & the last thing most want is 65kg of Dogue bounding towards them... especially if they have children with them!
So he's on a long line for his own safety & out of respect for others.
I don't worry about him not interacting with other dogs 'cos he's not interested, he mostly ignores them. At best they get a cursory glance. If one does approach him in a friendly way then he's ok but he doesn't want to play, in fact he gives the impression that it's a big inconvenience in a "if you don't mind I'm kinda busy" way.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Why? When I was six I probably used to skip up to everyone in the park and play with kids i didn't know on the slide and squeal when we played .....but I grew out of it. Nowadays, I might nod to passing strangers or have a short chat in Tesco's but I don't run off down the aisle with them playing chase


Loved this bit! The last line gave me a good hearty giggle :Hilarious


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

The definition of playing and having fun surely depends on the dog and what *they* enjoy doing.

Phoebe loves to play, she'll try and make a game out of anything! For her, the best game ever is having me or my OH interacting with her on a walk and there's no doubt in my mind that she's enjoying herself.

Interacting with strange dogs just isn't fun for her at all, so I'm not going to push that just because that's what "normal" dogs enjoy doing.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Ah ....and to me this is the crux of it. Humans are absolutely obsessed that their (adult) dogs must want *and need* to play with everyone in the park and that an owner whose dog doesn't play is somehow being cruel. Or they presume the dog has an issue.
> 
> Why? When I was six I probably used to skip up to everyone in the park and play with kids i didn't know on the slide and squeal when we played .....but I grew out of it. Nowadays, I might nod to passing strangers or have a short chat in Tesco's but I don't run off down the aisle with them playing chase .....
> 
> ...


Even as a puppy my Shar-Pei girl has never been interested in playing or engaging in any way with any dog apart from the one she lives with.. According to her there are only two dogs in this world ... her and her Schnauzer brother. I'm certain she thinks the rest are figments of my imagination!

When she was a year old I broke my wrist and the two dogs went to stay with my Schnauzer's breeder for six weeks who at the time had another 11 Schnauzers of various ages. She happily spent the 6 weeks in an enclosed garden next to where the other dogs (including my Schnauzer) played, just snoozing and watching them but showing absolutely no inclination she wanted to join in the fun.

At 3.5 years old she's still indifferent towards other dogs, and at training or out walking, other dogs don't even warrant acknowledgement BUT if another dog is threatening her Schnauzer brother she'll be the first one there and will stand in front of him, blocking them. It's all done very quietly with no barking or growling ... in fact I don't think she's ever barked or growled at another dog whilst we're out .... just passive resistance on her part!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Quote
> I think it's possible for all dogs and their owners to strike a happy balance, but that takes consideration from everyone.
> Unquote
> 
> ...


And exactly how the vast majority of peoples walks are. We only hear about the bad experiences because that's all that people want to talk about. It's refreshing to hear of pleasant experiences.

I frequent a park more or less every weekend with the boys and my observations of others are generally the same as what you described above. Everyone just doing their own thing with no troubles ensuing.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> And exactly how the vast majority of peoples walks are. We only hear about the bad experiences because that's all that people want to talk about. It's refreshing to hear of pleasant experiences.
> 
> I frequent a park more or less every weekend with the boys and my observations of others are generally the same as what you described above. Everyone just doing their own thing with no troubles ensuing.


Agreed, it is only the bad ones we tend to post about so it seems a if these are regular events, which for some people they may be but in my case it really is very few & far between

The few people I meet out are great, polite & sensible & so are their dogs, it really is a minority that couldn't give sh*t but I think that's the same in all walks of life.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Magyarmum said:


> At 3.5 years old she's still indifferent towards other dogs, and at training or out walking, other dogs don't even warrant acknowledgement BUT if another dog is threatening her Schnauzer brother she'll be the first one there and will stand in front of him, blocking them. It's all done very quietly with no barking or growling ... in fact I don't think she's ever barked or growled at another dog whilst we're out .... just passive resistance on her part!


That's Thor exactly! The only time I've ever seen him really react was when a dog had a bit of a go at Flo... Full protection mode on! That's *his* Flo!

Luckily he was on his line, I don't know what would have happened if he'd managed to get there & I didn't want to find out. Passive resistance? Maybe....


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Ah ....and to me this is the crux of it. Humans are absolutely obsessed that their (adult) dogs must want *and need* to play with everyone in the park and that an owner whose dog doesn't play is somehow being cruel. Or they presume the dog has an issue.
> 
> Why? When I was six I probably used to skip up to everyone in the park and play with kids i didn't know on the slide and squeal when we played .....but I grew out of it. Nowadays, I might nod to passing strangers or have a short chat in Tesco's but I don't run off down the aisle with them playing chase .....
> 
> ...


Love this post, but just want to add that not all dogs grow out of playing. Actually most don't. What they grow out of is thinking everyone wants to play with them, and wanting to play all the time 

My 8 and nearly 9 year olds still play and are silly but only in specific contexts. Out on a walk it's mostly about exploring and sniffing (and making sure I'm still coming because apparently I need to be encouraged to hurry up you measly human). When the walk is almost over and we're near the end, then they get silly and play with each other. 
With dogs they are friends with, it's very often the same thing. Togetherness is about exploring together, not necessarily playing together, though they do that also. And of course not all dogs enjoy the same play style, so the only dogs mine will really get a good game going with are dogs who are suitable play partners. 
And honestly, to this day, Bates would rather play with his humans than other dogs. Which is true of a lot of breeds bred to want to work with the handler.

They definitely don't solicit play from dogs they don't know. And actually, if you watch feral dogs or street dogs, they mostly ignore other dogs too. Unless they're congregating around a resource like a trash pile or bitch in heat, feral dogs leave each other alone and simply acknowledge each other from a distance and that's it. 
Which brings me to this comment:


Blitz said:


> Dogs are just not allowed to be dogs.


 There are SO many ways we don't allow our dogs to be dogs and no one has an issue with is. We don't allow intact dogs and bitches to breed indiscriminately (well, responsible owners don't), we don't allow our dogs do mark inside our houses, we don't allow our dogs to hunt and kill and bring their kill inside, we wash off shit they roll in and don't let them live in the stench as they would like to...

But being magnetized to every other dog out there isn't even a dog "being a dog". It's UNnatural behavior when you compare it to how dogs behave when unfettered by humans. 
I do think James' comment about breeding for retention of juvenile behavior is a very interesting one. I hadn't thought about that, but now that you say it, yes, it does seem like this is what the general public wants, and no, it's not how an adult dog would typically behave...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Bad walks overall are few and far between for us. But can pretty much guarantee that if we go to an off lead area there's always one dog and owner who I won't say ruin the walk for us because generally it's a few minutes out of a couple of hours but they certainly cast a slight shadow over it. And usually they're telling me I've got my hands full while their dog makes a nuisance of itself to everyone in the vicinity. And sadly the ones that stand out in my memory aren't the ones who pass by without a second glance or the ones who have a sniff or a bit of a play, it's these one or two dogs every walk that stick in my mind.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2016)

When owners know that their dogs arent good around other dogs they should be on leads when out in public.

I had an incident when we were on holiday over the summer walking Dakota on the beach. A couple came walking towards us with their springer who was not on a lead and when it seen Dakota it charged straight at her and locked itself on her throat. Luckily I was able to pull it off before it did any serious damage and Dakota made a run for it to the closest people she seen. I held onto the dog while I shouted the owners to come and get it as they had stood back and watched the entire thing from a distance. The lady finally got her husband to put the dog on a leash and he made the comment "thats what dogs do"... I was furious and walked away from them to see if Dakota was ok and thankfully she only had a graze on her neck and lip.

The dog was not at fault for the attack, if it wasnt properly socialised as a pup around other animals and the owners knew it dodnt like other dogs they should never have had it off leash in an area where there was 50+ dogs.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> And exactly how the vast majority of peoples walks are. We only hear about the bad experiences because that's all that people want to talk about. It's refreshing to hear of pleasant experiences.
> 
> I frequent a park more or less every weekend with the boys and my observations of others are generally the same as what you described above. Everyone just doing their own thing with no troubles ensuing.





Cleo38 said:


> Agreed, it is only the bad ones we tend to post about so it seems a if these are regular events, which for some people they may be but in my case it really is very few & far between
> 
> The few people I meet out are great, polite & sensible & so are their dogs, it really is a minority that couldn't give sh*t but I think that's the same in all walks of life.


I'd love it if this were true for me but sadly it's not the case whatsoever.
If we see any dog, it's almost guaranteed it will approach us. Not just a quick sniff and walk on, but trying to engage Phoebe in a game of chase, mugging me for the treats in my pocket or jumping up on me or Phoebe.
A short footpath walk to the end of my road will encounter at least one idiot who thinks their friendly dog on a flexi lead should be entitled to cross the road to say hello to my on lead dog or of course the other common occurrence is that their dog has "great road sense" so doesn't need to be on a lead at all.
A walk in the park at the back of my house results in countless dogs bombing from great distances to greet us. It's actually easier to avoid them in the park as we can jump into hedges or swiftly take a different path, so we walk there more often.
I don't drive and only have two ways of leaving my house so we encounter these dogs numerous times daily. Walking at night when the park is closed to the public has always been great for us, but now Phoebe has become scared of the dark and doesn't enjoy walking there as its pitch black. She doesn't even like a patch of our road where the street lights are out.
My OH is off work for a few weeks, so at the minute we can enjoy the luxury of driving to places in daylight where other dogs can mostly be avoided but that's not 100% guaranteed either. There's always the chance that a dog will come round the next corner. Very rarely do they have any recall or manners whatsoever. Maybe it's a regional thing, maybe it's just ignorance or a selfish lack of common courtesy.. I don't know. But it's not a case of it being "all I want to talk about" I'm overjoyed if a dog can pass us by with just a quick sniff and doesn't make a pain in the arse of itself but that's not daily reality for us and it well and truly sucks.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

That is such a shame @Nettles, must take some of the enjoyment out of walks having to conend with that all the time.

s I said, I am lucky in that I live ina rural area so have lots of places to walk where I rarely see anyone. The onlytime I do is when I take my young GSD to the grounds of alocal leisure centre to do some training (nice, flat & even ground where I can practise heelwork withou tripping over things like I usually do!). As I have had a few altercations with people over there I am mainly left alone now, those people think I'm a stuck up cow (I was told this!) who should let her dog have some fun ..... so Archer's wagging tail & complete focus on me isn't showing that he wants to be with me at all then?!


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Nettles said:


> Loved this bit! The last line gave me a good hearty giggle :Hilarious


Would sure brighten up my trip.....and the exercise would help me allow myself some pop or sweetie afterwards


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

COH2350 said:


> When owners know that their dogs arent good around other dogs they should be on leads when out in public.
> 
> I had an incident when we were on holiday over the summer walking Dakota on the beach. A couple came walking towards us with their springer who was not on a lead and when it seen Dakota it charged straight at her and locked itself on her throat. Luckily I was able to pull it off before it did any serious damage and Dakota made a run for it to the closest people she seen. I held onto the dog while I shouted the owners to come and get it as they had stood back and watched the entire thing from a distance. The lady finally got her husband to put the dog on a leash and he made the comment "thats what dogs do"... I was furious and walked away from them to see if Dakota was ok and thankfully she only had a graze on her neck and lip.
> 
> ...


While that's totally unacceptable behaviour from dog and owner (owner especially), dogs do possess incredible bite inhibition, and if a dog really wanted "lock itself onto" another dogs throat and mean it, the victim would have more than a grazed lip. And it wouldn't be pulled off easily, either.

But yes the owners sound like a fairly classic example of owners that are delusional about their dogs behaviour. That's why I don't always trust peoples opinions of "it's ok he's friendly" or "he's usually ok" as that is not always the case!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> And exactly how the vast majority of peoples walks are. We only hear about the bad experiences because that's all that people want to talk about. It's refreshing to hear of pleasant experiences.
> 
> I frequent a park more or less every weekend with the boys and my observations of others are generally the same as what you described above. Everyone just doing their own thing with no troubles ensuing.


It's actually quite rare to be able to negotiate this particular field without getting mugged tbh so this morning was a pleasant change for all of us. I think the usual numpties were having a lie in cos of the holidays!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> Agreed, it is only the bad ones we tend to post about so it seems a if these are regular events, which for some people they may be but in my case it really is very few & far between
> 
> The few people I meet out are great, polite & sensible & so are their dogs, it really is a minority that couldn't give sh*t but I think that's the same in all walks of life.


I also think that anyone who has a dog that goes off lead all the time and is usually in the thick of it with the rest of them, wouldn't consider their friendly dog running up to say hello is an issue for anyone, perhaps.

Which is fair enough, I guess and I've seen many occasions when owners are missing obvious signs of distress in their own or someone else's dog and mistakenly believe they are all having fun 

I find it harder to tolerate when they have been made aware (very politely) of the upset their dog is causing to another dog but do nothing about it - or worse, go out of their way to allow it to happen


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I still find it odd that so many people have to keep their dogs on the lead and are not prepared to let them play. I met someone locally in a fairly popular dog walking area who seemed so relieved to find someone that actually let their dogs intereact.


I let my dogs interact, but I prefer quality over quantity.

I don't see why every dog has to meet every other dog.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Well, surprise surprise my six adult dogs grew out of playing. As adults they will hunt imaginary rabbits, retrieve, sniff, scent, and pretend to chase phesants and they take part in Agility and Obedience but play with a random dog in the park ....nah...they just aren't interested.
> 
> J.


I really hope that mine does grow out of it, but until that happens she is one of those (a minority, perhaps) who yes, wants to play. 
I don't expect her to get everything she wants, and I totally get that other dogs must be free from harassment, but asking her to ignore them all doesn't sit well with me. 
If we were a multi-dog, multi-person, lively dog-savvy household I might feel differently, but it's just her and rookie-owner me, so however hard I work at meeting her needs, including play, I think it will always be a somewhat isolated life for her.
I don't think she has any "right" to play with other dogs, but I respect that she enjoys it, and some other dogs and owners enjoy it too so I don't want to close off that avenue. 
I want to know if there are reliable ways for me to encourage her to approach others respectfully, and graciously take no for an answer.
She does do that sometimes but at other times she tries to go for the WHEE!!!PLAY WITH ME!!! style, which means that I monitor her closely and intervene often.
My only previous dog (a collie type) had minimal interest in other dogs but Monkey is at the other end of the spectrum.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2017)

labradrk said:


> dogs do possess incredible bite inhibition, and if a dog really wanted "lock itself onto" another dogs throat and mean it, the victim would have more than a grazed lip. And it wouldn't be pulled off easily, either.
> 
> When i grabbed the dog for a second its attention went from attacking my dog to trying to have a go for me. That is the only reason my dog was able to get free. When the dog then realised it had let go it caught her lip in an attempt to get hold of her again.
> 
> When i say 'graze' Dakota was still covered in blood and still has a scar from it but the damage could have been so much worse.


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