# Secret society



## JoLotus (Jan 25, 2015)

Hello all.

I am new to the group. Since losing g our cat the beginning of July we decided that now was the time to take the plunge and buy our dream birman baby.

I want to show and possibly breed in the future. I have visited a cat show and got a feel for it. I have been doing lots of research on here and various websites to make sure I'm knowledgeable. We have brought parts to build our cat run and will be installing a cat flap and will have it all built and ready by April.

However...I feel like I keep hitting brick walls. Not just with finding my perfect kitten which is proving to be majorly difficult, but you even need referrals to join such as the birman cat club! I have found many breeders won't sell an active kitten unless you have experience breeding...but I can't get experience breeding unless I'm allowed a chance to breed!

I have found 2 breeders within 2 hours of me. One will consider selling an active cat if she gets to know me, but has not yet got back to me on when would be a good time to meet up. The other will sell me an active kitten but I'm not sure the 'quality' is quite the same. Hope that doesn't sound bad.

I feel like it's some kind of secret society and I just can't get in. I'm a good person, have a large home. Both myself and my husband are professionals and have two lovely boys. I feel I could give my cat everything and I'm making sure I am so ready. Time is ticking on and I'm starting to wonder if I will ever get my dream kitten.

I know breeders want to protect their prefix and kittens but should it be this difficult really? Where am I going wrong. Pleas could someone give me some advice?

Thanks.

From a very desperate and slightly pathetic, Jo.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Welcome to PF 
I'm sorry you feel that you have discovered a secret society of breeders  I do know that it can be hard to get started in breeding and many breeders are wary of selling active registered kittens. It is a bit of a 'catch 22' that breeders want you to have experience but you need to have bred to get that experience 
My advice would be to go to more shows and talk to breeders there. Start off by getting a non-active kitten of either sex that you can show yourself before entering the world of breeding. Let others see your passion for your chosen breed and then they might consider letting you have an active girl.
Get in touch with the first breeder again and ask if you could go to a show with her/him. Hands on experience will beat anything you can learn from any forum. If you want experience with kittening find a rescue that is looking for fosterers.
Once you have bought a kitten ask the breeder for a referral to join the breed society or contact the membership secretary and ask if you can join without the usual referral - some will accept a vet's referral too.
Hope some of this helps and good luck with finding your dream kitten


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Welcome!

I will try to answer you to the best of my ability, because I do understand the difficulty of finding your first pedigree show/breeding cat.

Have you owned a Birman before? If not, this will be one reason why breeders are very reluctant to sell you a cat for breeding. Most will expect you to have some experience of the breed, be that as a pet or a show neuter.

Birmans are incredibly difficult to breed to show standard, and kittens that are of show/breed standard are unlikely to be offered to new/novice breeders. Some breeders may be willing to sell a breeding cat but as you point out in your post, you run the risk of the quality of the cats not being that great and the breeder may not offer you the support you are going to need in the future. That's not to say that all breeders to sell to newbies are like this but you really do need to be incredibly careful, particularly in this breed.

I have complained on many an occasion to the breed clubs (and all breed clubs too) that the requirement for a proposer and sometimes seconder should be dropped as it is losing clubs a lot of members. Some clubs have dropped this requirement now so it might be a case of looking to see if there are others you can join more easily. There are four Birman breed clubs in the UK.

My advice to you is consider taking on a show neuter, rather than a breeding cat at this stage. This will enable you to get practiced with how to care for and present a Birman at competition. It will also enable you to build up a good relationship with your breeder, and open doors to other breeders who you will meet whilst showing. This will help you on the journey to your ultimate aim. It will also help you to "get in your eye". This is when you can look at a Birman and know if it is a good specimen or not, you will understand the 'type' required for the breed and is something you cannot possibly learn from a book. It took me 4 years to learn this, and I only did so by showing my Birman, speaking to breeders and looking at dozens and dozens of Birmans.

Another thing I can't stress enough is take you time and don't go weak at the knees and buy the first thing offered to you. Make absolutely sure it is right. It took me 3 years to find my first show Birman, but she was worth the wait. I wish you a lot of luck with your search


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## JoLotus (Jan 25, 2015)

Thank you so much for your advice, I really appreciate it. At least you understand what I'm saying, I felt a bit crazy writing it down! 

I visited the show alone and felt very out of place. The breeder I was talking to stopped mid conversation when the person spoke on the microphone at the front. Was this rude or was I rude to expect that she finish with a rounding up of the conversation or a...We will finish once I have listened to this etc. 

I think asking a breeder to visit with them is a good idea. Another breeder I contacted may be willing to let me tag along actually. It was them who introduced me to shows. 

I have purchased the cat book (I think it is called) and have been looking at show qualities but I think seeing examples of them is a great idea. 

Maybe you are right, I should start off with a non active to prove myself from that point first. I guess I just know what I want and wanted to jump straight in. I'm very much a 'just do it right the first time' kind of person. Maybe that's where my problem lies.

I really want to get it right and will put everything into her. I agree experience of showing is a first step in the right direction. Off to contact my showing breeder friend.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Many moons ago we bought our first Ragdoll neuter, mainly as a pet but then we decided to show him, we went to a show to look around and see how the land lied and there was a Raggie breeder there that ignored all our pleas for advice and even went as far as standing in front of her cat so we had difficult seeing it, unperturbed we got into showing and finally got our cat a show buddy so were out with 2 cats, got friendly with another breeder and finally got in with her circle of friends and learned all there was to know about showing and breeding, the rest is history


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Birmans are not my breed, but I certainly wouldn't sell an active-registered kitten to anyone I don't know - and at present you are hardly known in the Birman world.



> Both myself and my husband are professionals


Does this mean you both have demanding jobs and are out of the house most of the day?

Also since you are not sure if you want to breed in the future, now is not the time to buy an active-registered kitten. The time is when you are sure you want to breed.

Fostering for a local rescue is one way to get some experience of the business of feline pregnancy, delivery and kitten raising though fosters tend to go at 8-10 weeks and kittens change a lot after that becoming a lot more demanding. It will give you a chance to find out if it fits into your lives without spending £500 (or more) on a kitten, £200 on a stud fee, £50 or so for an FeLV / FIV test and all the travelling you might have to & from stud.

Getting a show neuter and showing him or her is the best way to get known in the Birman road, and to learn show preparation. With my Orientals it's nothing more than a comb, polishing with a wool mitt and trimming claws. Birmans need much more care including making sure their feet are not stained from cat litter etc.

Also, the 'woman at the front with the microphone' was probably the show manager and she should have been listened too. If she said anything at that point in time she might have missed an important announcement. You don't say what happened after the announcement, or what it was, so can't comment further.


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## JoLotus (Jan 25, 2015)

Thanks again for advice.

Oriental slave. I'm sure the lady should have been listened to, however I think it is rude to stop mid conversation and turn attention to someone else, without and kind of explanation, she moved towards her group of people once she knew what the lady was talking about. I left promptly after that as I felt embarrassed. I don't think it's too much to say 'hang on we need to listen to this', I'm a polite person and would follow the rules.

My husband works shifts so we do not have to put our children into any form of childcare and nan is home with sons if my other half's shifts cross with my hours. The house is rarely empty.

I'm pretty positive I want to breed in the future. But like I said I am still researching to make sure I get it right. I Ave informed both breeders I will not be looking for a kitten until April onwards.

I can see more shows are the answer. I hope to tag along with an ex breeder I have previously been in contact with.

Jo


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Southern shows or Northern shows????


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

It really is a catch 22 

It took me a good 18 months for a breeder to allow me a girl on Active 

I study hard and researched everything I possibility could just to prove to the breeders that I would be a good ethical breeder 

I got a lot of knock backs and breeders willing sell non breed standard cats 

I wanted a Blue Tortie Tabby BSH colourpoint which just had to be prefect , I found her and I will be forever greatful to her breeder who has turned out to be a very good friend and mentor 

Showing is a very good way of getting your foot in the door and I wish that I had started showing before breeding , I don't regret it but it really does open so many doors

I don't really sell active, only to ethical breeders with prefixes that I know to be sound 

Good luck in your search, it will be worth it in the end


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## JoLotus (Jan 25, 2015)

Middle shows? I'm from near Birmingham. 

Thanks


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

This is the GCCF show list.

503 Service Temporarily Unavailable


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Link does work!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

JoLotus said:


> The breeder I was talking to stopped mid conversation when the person spoke on the microphone at the front. Was this rude or was I rude to expect that she finish with a rounding up of the conversation or a...We will finish once I have listened to this etc.


I don't really see this as rude. If the cats for best in show were being called you really have to pay attention to the person on the mike because you dare not miss your call if the show is one were you have to take your own cat up.

Definitely go to a show with your friendly breeder, they will be able to introduce you to others and you will be more readily accepted than if you are on your own. Breeders are justifiably wary of unknown people looking to buy for breeding.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

QOTN said:


> Link does work!


It seems to be okay now - just a temporary glitch I think


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

OP, I am not a breeder so cannot offer any advice on that world I am afraid.
I can however heartily agree with the suggestion to offering to foster a pregnant mum for a rescue. 
I have only ever had moggies, but have learnt a lot on here ( I hope ) about _some_ of the work that good breeders do, and was able to put this into practice with foster litters. 
The last litter I fostered left here being used to all kinds of pick-ups and cuddles, having paws checked, ears cleaned, teeth also. Belly rubs were a daily practice  and I tried my best to get them used to household noises.

However....don't think that breed clubs are the only secret society  I tried for years to 'get in' with a rescue, and visited many many places without feeling welcome.
When I finally found a rescue that welcomed me, and i clicked with then I was soon invited to help out with fostering but it can take time to make those contacts.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

JoLotus said:


> Thanks again for advice.
> 
> Oriental slave. I'm sure the lady should have been listened to, however I think it is rude to stop mid conversation and turn attention to someone else, without and kind of explanation, she moved towards her group of people once she knew what the lady was talking about. I left promptly after that as I felt embarrassed. I don't think it's too much to say 'hang on we need to listen to this', I'm a polite person and would follow the rules.
> 
> ...


 As has already been said,i dont think the breeder is rude to stop the convo to listen to the person on the microphone you will understand what we are saying when you understand more how shows work.

You have to be on the ball when they talk on the microphone,if you was to miss your call then you are going to miss out on your cat been entered,it may be that the breeder who your were talking to went over to her friends to ask what had been said as she/he missed it due to talking to you.

If you was to show in TICA thats even more maddness you have to be listening throughout the show,you have to listen for your number to be called up 6 times,you can not afford to miss your call.

Hope that makes sense.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

More to it than just selling a cat for breeding, the breeder should also be prepared to mentor you and that relationship doesn't happen overnight.

Like others I started out showing neuters for a few years, got to know the breed, other breeders and was then able to shadow a breeder to learn about kitten births, managing breeding cats.
Showing can also help when you're looking for a stud.

I've only sold breeding cats to people I know, and wouldn't sell to an unknown person.

I would have excused myself quickly to listen to the announcement, saying excuse me, even a hand motion only takes a second so I understand you feeling a bit put off by that.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

As for getting a Birman to breed with (of proper "quality") have you considered importing to the UK? There are loads of breeding Birmans available from abroad (if you know where to look). The easiset would be to fly a kitten from EU. 
If you are really seriously into this I don't see why you have confined yourself to local breeders. 

Choosing the right "quality" breeding cats is a tough job. Besides the fact that breeders almost always keep the best kitten to continue their line (so you almost certainly receive a "runner-up"), unless you know the lines 100%, it is not easy to predict show/breed quality. A kitten might be of outstanding potential in the young years, and later develope not in conformation with the standard, or vice versa.

If you are looking for a kitten of really outstanding quality, you might be disappointed. But you see, if you know what you want in the breed and how to achieve it, in a few years, you might have a kitten of your own breeding of exceptional quality. Rarely any breeder will start with definitely amazing breed examples. Breeding is about what you manage to achieve in your own journey.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> As for getting a Birman to breed with (of proper "quality") have you considered importing to the UK? There are loads of breeding Birmans available from abroad (if you know where to look). The easiset would be to fly a kitten from EU.


As a first breeding cat for a novice breeder I personally think that's a crazy idea.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I wouldn't know about UK, but almost all breeders I know from my country and the surrounding ones (we meet at shows) have had their first breeding cats imported, as no one local would sell them a breeding cat (presumely afraid of "competition"?). It is doable, however you have to be very smart about it, finding out the background of the cattery, checking all health tests, possibly seeing a kitten on video as well, etc. There are scams, and there are breeders willing to sell any kitten "for breeding" so they can charge more. But there are also many genuine breeders who are sometimes more prone to sell you a breeding kitten rather than a local breeder. If it weren't for a breeder 2500km away, I would not have a wonderful mentor and a show winner breeding queen today.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't know about the foreign breeder route. I mean, what kind of breeder wants to sell to a foreign someone? It's a much bigger risk and the breeder will most likely never see the kitten again.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> I wouldn't know about UK, but almost all breeders I know from my country and the surrounding ones (we meet at shows) have had their first breeding cats imported, as no one local would sell them a breeding cat (presumely afraid of "competition"?). It is doable, however you have to be very smart about it, finding out the background of the cattery, checking all health tests, possibly seeing a kitten on video as well, etc. There are scams, and there are breeders willing to sell any kitten "for breeding" so they can charge more. But there are also many genuine breeders who are sometimes more prone to sell you a breeding kitten rather than a local breeder. If it weren't for a breeder 2500km away, I would not have a wonderful mentor and a show winner breeding queen today.


Only a very small proportion of UK breeders, even those who have been breeding for a long time, own imported cats. It's on the increase due to changes in the quarantine laws several years ago but it would still be a minefield for a new breeder in many respects.

There are many, many reasons why I think this but, as a start, nobody should ever, ever consider buying a kitten purely on the strength of having seen a video.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

pipje said:


> I don't know about the foreign breeder route. I mean, what kind of breeder wants to sell to a foreign someone? It's a much bigger risk and the breeder will most likely never see the kitten again.


Someone who is interested in money. Hence one of the many reasons why it is such a bad idea.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I guess it might be just among my breed then, as it is not as common as some breeds. Pipje, if I am not mistaken, you are in the Netherlands, no? Recently I was in contact with two proper and genuine breeders in the Netherlands who were both willing to sell me a breeding kitten (upon only exchanging messages online), and I am quite novice. So I know it must not be an "area" thing, maybe it's a "breed" thing, most breeders in my breed start with Russian catteries and I am not only talking about EU breeders, but those located in the USA as well. And my stud co-owner (breeder) has two breeding kittens in UK catteries, so. In all honesty, I personally do not know anyone in my breed starting with a local breeding kitten. It is very, very common. So honestly, I feel it's kind of a reach saying that only breeders interested in money would sell kittens for breeding abroad.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

HeartofClass said:


> I guess it might be just among my breed then, as it is not as common as some breeds. Pipje, if I am not mistaken, you are in the Netherlands, no? Recently I was in contact with two proper and genuine breeders in the Netherlands who were both willing to sell me a breeding kitten (upon only exchanging messages online), and I am quite novice. So I know it must not be an "area" thing, maybe it's a "breed" thing, most breeders in my breed start with Russian catteries and I am not only talking about EU breeders, but those located in the USA as well. And my stud co-owner (breeder) has two breeding kittens in UK catteries, so. In all honesty, I personally do not know anyone in my breed starting with a local breeding kitten. It is very, very common. So honestly, I feel it's kind of a reach saying that only breeders interested in money would sell kittens for breeding abroad.


That may be possible as you are breeder now. Still, it's very hard. I don't know very many good ones who would....


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> I wouldn't know about UK, but almost all breeders I know from my country and the surrounding ones (we meet at shows) have had their first breeding cats imported


Importing and exporting is very common outside the UK, but I wouldn't recommend it as a way of getting a first cat. For most breeders the same 'rules' apply, they need to know who you are and your reputation before selling an entire cat.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I have thought about importing in the past but i got chicken and couldnt do it,have heard so so many horror stories of breeders sending out different kittens to the ones in the pictures etc and much worse. 

I have also noticed that cats over sea are much higher in price.

So i decided to stick to uk breeders as we do have some very nice cats already here in the uk.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Importing will cost several thousand pounds as not only will the cat be more expensive but actually importing a cat - any cat - is expensive.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Importing will cost several thousand pounds as not only will the cat be more expensive but actually importing a cat - any cat - is expensive.


I was quoted £1300 for the cat alone then fees would have been on top of that.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

As a Birman breeder there is no way on this earth I'd recommend someone who is a total novice to the breed to import one as their first breeding Queen. For a start the requirements for show birmans in the UK are much stricter than in other registries, the breeders I contacted from were all stunned when I told them that the kittens they were showing me simply didn't have enough white on their feet for the UK taste and it took over a year and a lot of disappointment to find the right kitten .... then there is the price tag to consider.

All in all I think the OP would be better off looking closer to home and finding someone who will mentor them.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Well, however the OP decides, I just thought I oughtta mention this option, since this forum will almost without exception recommend people wanting to breed to "wait a little longer" or "start showing for a few years instead" (in combination with usually helpful advice, but still) and my guess would be that such advice is usually not taken. I believe there are untraditional ways to start breeding - meaning you don't neccessarily need to show neuters for years and then find yourself a good mentor and buy a local breeding girl. Yes this is a good way to start, but if you don't start this way, this doesn't mean you will not be a good breeder if your heart is at the right place. I know breeders who have started "by the book" and do not have the right approach, and breeders who started completely on their on, without a mentor, with the first show being with their future breeding queen and yet they turn out good. But I know such views are not very welcome on this forum.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

HeartofClass said:


> Well, however the OP decides, I just thought I oughtta mention this option, since this forum will almost without exception recommend people wanting to breed to "wait a little longer" or "start showing for a few years instead" (in combination with usually helpful advice, but still) and my guess would be that such advice is usually not taken. I believe there are untraditional ways to start breeding - meaning you don't neccessarily need to show neuters for years and then find yourself a good mentor and buy a local breeding girl. Yes this is a good way to start, but if you don't start this way, this doesn't mean you will not be a good breeder if your heart is at the right place. I know breeders who have started "by the book" and do not have the right approach, and breeders who started completely on their on, without a mentor, with the first show being with their future breeding queen and yet they turn out good. But I know such views are not very welcome on this forum.


I agree with you - showing is not the only way. But I do think it helps to have at least owned the breed you want to breed from beforehand.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Showing is the only way to understand what the breed should look and feel like, and people paying good money for pedigree kittens deserve that. You can read breed standards and look at books & photos all day but ultimately there is in my view no substitute for hands on experience, especially if you can steward for a good judge of your breed. (maybe that is only possibly in the GCCF style shows) I also read the judges reports on other cats, it's very helpful that the GCCF requires the judge to make them available for publication on the GCCF's website.

I suspect that people who go that route don't ask here as they don't need to. 

I had no problems getting a breeding queen because of my existing associations with the breed, and she was sold to me at a pet price. Because I show I've got access to studs I wouldn't otherwise be allowed in to.

For someone who lives as far away from most studs as I do (5 hours each way) this is all priceless.


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## JoLotus (Jan 25, 2015)

Thanks so much for all advice given.

I am meeting a lady I have been in contact with at her next show in a couple of weeks where I will take my book of questions  Such a shame she doesn't breed any more because she is so helpful and has really taken a lot of time to reply to me and give me advice. I like her. Hope I can get a good mentor.

Thank you for explaining about the announcements, I will be aware of this at the show and know not to take any offence if people switch attention mid conversation.

I would not like to buy from abroad but thanks for giving me another option. I really want to make sure I do this right and as a novice I feel this would be much more challenging to do that.

I have to be honest I don't really want to start just showing. I will discuss with my friend at show but I know I want the option to breed once I feel confident I know what I am doing and am prepared. I'm sure a good mentor will guide me through this. I don't want to have to wait years of showing. I have wanted this for a while now.

So all in all I know shows are the best place to start, I will get as much research done and my friendly lady said after meeting me she will see if she can help at all with contacts.

Can't wait to go! 

As a last question...Are there any more 'rules', that are not obvious, I should be aware of be for I go to a show? I know the no touching rule .

Thanks all for your advice. I can see this is going to be another good place to start my epic journey.

Jo


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It doesn't have to be years of showing, but breeding isn't for those who are impatient


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