# 9 year old bitch just mated- HELP



## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Our 9 year old, nearly 10 year old long-legged basset hound just got mated by our labrador by complete mistake. I am reliving the horror that happened last year. The same thing happened and the puppies that were born we all dead.

I really need so help, not abuse, on what to do. I actually cannot believe this has happened!!!!!!!!!

can I get her sprayed straight away or do I need to wait to find out if she is pregnant first??


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

I think you can have her spayed and any puppies aborted, this is what I was told years ago when a rescue dog that we were having spayed got away from us on a night time walk when she was in season (she came into season soon after we rescued her so we had to wait to get her spayed) and was missing for about 5 mins so we had no idea if a dog had got to her or not but our vet said it wasn't a problem and he would just abort any puppies when he spayed her. As it turned out fortunately she wasn't pregnant.

Also I think there is an injection she could have but you'd need your vets advice as it depends how long since she was mated I think. Hope everything turns out well.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Get her to vet pronto, he can give her a jab that will stop puppies - similar to the morning after pill in humans - but this will send her back to day one of her cycle, so you will have to watch she doesnt get mated again Also there are risks with this jab, as with anything that interferes with nature. A word with your vet will clear things up for you though, he's the expert. Also ask about spaying, to save yourself any future worries. 

Good luck!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> Our 9 year old, nearly 10 year old long-legged basset hound just got mated by our labrador by complete mistake. I am reliving the horror that happened last year. *The same thing happened and the puppies that were born we all dead.*
> 
> I really need so help, not abuse, on what to do. I actually cannot believe this has happened!!!!!!!!!
> 
> can I get her sprayed straight away or do I need to wait to find out if she is pregnant first??


Really sorry, I don't understand. How can it have happened twice? Why were the dogs not separated or neutered?

This is not 'abuse', just genuine questions because I simply don't understand.

I recommend you take your girl to the vet asap.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Alizin injections ... 2 jabs 24 hours apart.

Then spay her in a couple of months to ensure this doesnt happen again.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Poor old soul. 
Why on earth are you asking strangers on the Internet something that should be blindingly obvious? 
Your vet will advise the safest way to end the pregnancy and spay to ensure this `accident` doesn`t happen again. Talk to your vet. 
I also suggest you get your dog neutered.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

get her to the VETS NOW and get the jab.. I would personally just get her in and spayed now, once is an accident, twice is pretty inexcusable, your bitch is nearly 10, she was to old last year to have a litter and she is way to old now to have a litter don't put her life at any more risk and sort in NOW!!! I would book an appointment for this afternoon, let them know it's and emergency and get her in pronto today, not tomorrow, or the next day, today


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I am always suspicious when somebody on their first posting asks a question like this, especially when the common sense approach is to ask your vet, or at least Google the information 


Surely with this happening last year and dead puppies being produced, a vet would have been involved at some stage.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

henryfreston said:


> Our 9 year old, nearly 10 year old long-legged basset hound just got mated by our labrador by complete mistake. I am reliving the horror that happened last year. The same thing happened and the puppies that were born we all dead.
> 
> I really need so help, not abuse, on what to do. I actually cannot believe this has happened!!!!!!!!!
> 
> can I get her sprayed straight away or do I need to wait to find out if she is pregnant first??


You need to take her to the vet, they can give a mismate injection called Alizin which will terminate any pregnancy if she has been caught. You also really need to consider having her spayed too, and your other dog neutered especially as this is the second time its happened, or at the very least have her spayed. As an older unspayed female she is at risk of things like uterine infections especially pyometra which can be fatal if not caught early and she would need an energency spay anyway if that happened.

Take her straight away, although you can use it after its best given before day 20 post mating as the risks are considerably reduced.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

We have got in touch with the vet and she will be having a jab. This is the problem on these forums people are just too quick to judge. You just presume that we have not contacted the vet or anything. All I was after was advice. You don't know the situation so please don't say things like 'why wasn't he neutered' and 'how has this happened twice?'. 

Now you will probably come back saying something on the lines of 'no need to be abusive, we were only trying to help' well, I was only looking for advice on what to do, not questioning on my husbandry and the 'abuse' you presume I give to my dog.

Oh and thank you to the people who did just give their advice without feeling the need to have a go


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> We have got in touch with the vet and she will be having a jab. This is the problem on these forums people are just too quick to judge. You just presume that we have not contacted the vet or anything. All I was after was advice. You don't know the situation so please don't say things like 'why wasn't he neutered' and 'how has this happened twice?'.
> 
> Now you will probably come back saying something on the lines of 'no need to be abusive, we were only trying to help' well, I was only looking for advice on what to do, not questioning on my husbandry and the 'abuse' you presume I give to my dog.


Yes, a few of us have asked how on earth this could have happened twice - it's a fair point, don't you think 

After it happened the first time you easily *could* have had one or both dogs speyed.
You easily *could* have kept them separate during your bitch's season.

You didn't, though.

And it's your 9 year old bitch who will pay for your carelessness and yes, it IS carelessness for this to have happened twice.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Oh dear. But if you have already contacted your vet, then come on a public forum asking questions I'm afraid you will get all types of replies, especially as it's the second time you have had this happen to your bitch.

Honestly, people are so passionate about dogs and breeding, I thin you got off quite lightly compared to some I've seen!

Glad she's going to the vets.:thumbup1:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> We have got in touch with the vet and she will be having a jab. This is the problem on these forums people are just too quick to judge. You just presume that we have not contacted the vet or anything. All I was after was advice. You don't know the situation so please don't say things like 'why wasn't he neutered' and 'how has this happened twice?'.
> 
> Now you will probably come back saying something on the lines of 'no need to be abusive, we were only trying to help' well, I was only looking for advice on what to do, not questioning on my husbandry and the 'abuse' you presume I give to my dog.


We only know as much of the situation as you tell us. All that we know is that you have managed to let an elderly bitch mis-mate TWICE! To most of us that seems careless. You may have a valid reason for not having your dogs neutered, but there are ways to cope with a season - you could put your male dog into kennels while she is in heat, your vet may be prepared to inject your bitch (depending upon her health) to suppress her heat, you could be VERY careful about not letting them get together - this wasn't just a quick sniff - they were tied!

We are not judgemental, because we know it doesn't do any good - but sometimes we get exasperated! I'm sorry you feel that we were abusive - but has no-one ever said anything to you and you've thought or said "What on earth were you thinking of . . . ?" Of course you have - we all have. It doesn't mean that we're any less keen to help - the dog is our main concern.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Who has been abusive?
> 
> Yes, a few of us have asked how on earth this could have happened twice - it's a fair point, don't you think
> 
> ...


Once is a mistake twice is just plain stupid.

Glad you have seen the vet OP and made the decision to give her the jab ...

Perhaps it's time to be thinking of a spay or neuter as its obv. That the situation when she is on heat is proving difficult for you to handle .


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

all I was after was the different methods that could be used. Because believe it or not vets are not robots so from time to time and actually quite often they will forget about different treatments that could be a better alternative. 

Can I just say that you really can't judge people over the internet when you don't have a clue what happened. And I will tell you what happened. We have kept them seperate fro about 10 days now. Sometimes we put the male lab outside when it is sunny. And this particular day a window was left open in the kitchen and the bitch escaped and we found them locked in the garden. If I bloody well said 'we put them together to see what they would do then they locked together' I can understand but seriously you ought to re-think what you say sometimes because it can actually be quite disrespectful.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> all I was after was the different methods that could be used. Because believe it or not vets are not robots so from time to time and actually quite often they will forget about different treatments that could be a better alternative.
> 
> Can I just say that you really can't judge people over the internet when you don't have a clue what happened. And I will tell you what happened. We have kept them seperate fro about 10 days now. Sometimes we put the male lab outside when it is sunny. *And this particular day a window was left open *in the kitchen and the bitch escaped and we found them locked in the garden. If I bloody well said 'we put them together to see what they would do then they locked together' I can understand but seriously you ought to re-think what you say sometimes because it can actually be quite disrespectful.


Whatever.

The result is that your dog is going to be in discomfort, to some extent, because of YOUR carelessness.

You could have had one or both dogs neutered - you didn't.

You could have asked someone else to look after the boy just for that short time - you didn't.

You have now allowed your bitch to fall pregnant *twice *- that is an objective fact.

Don't like to be judged? Look after your dogs a bit better.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Where There's a will there's a way


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Whatever.
> 
> The result is that your dog is going to be in discomfort, to some extent, because of YOUR carelessness.
> 
> ...


Never said I like being judged. I just like being judged in a fair way instead of be pre-judged. And look after my dogs a bit better! Ha that's laughable. I'll have you know our dogs are walking 3x a day. The lab Bertie is taken shooting almost every weekend and they are on a very good diet. A simple mistake does not give you the reasoning to say that my dogs are not looked after.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> Never said I like being judged. I just like being judged in a fair way instead of be pre-judged. And look after my dogs a bit better! Ha that's laughable. I'll have you know our dogs are walking 3x a day. The lab Bertie is taken shooting almost every weekend and they are on a very good diet. A simple mistake does not give you the reasoning to say that my dogs are not looked after.


It wasn't a 'simple mistake'.

It was carelessness because it happened TWICE.

I couldn't care less how many walks your dogs have or whether they go out on shoots. I feel sorry for your female dog, at her age, now having to be neutered or given a mismate jab. Once is an accident - twice is appalling.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> It wasn't a 'simple mistake'.
> 
> It was carelessness because it happened TWICE.
> 
> I couldn't care less how many walks your dogs have or whether they go out on shoots. I feel sorry for your female dog, at her age, now having to be neutered or given a mismate jab. Once is an accident - twice is appalling.


I love it how every time I come back you describe the situation worse and worse. All I want is an apology as I have said numerous times, you have NO idea on the circumstances e.g. why the dog isn't neutered etc so you are in no place to tell me I don't care for my dogs right! We try our best to keep them apart but as someone said 'where there is a will there is a way'.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The nature of online forums means that people are quick to respond with how they feel, which is not always perhaps what posters want to hear, but actually, although people are pretty honest on this forum and the breeding section can get quite *heated* I haven't seen any malicious posts in a very long time. It's very tame as forums go.

As regarding your situation, considering your bitch and dog could have been injured during the mating, probably a higher likelihood given the size difference, perhaps you can understand the frustration that this has happened twice. 

Being a good owner is about being responsible for the health and well being of your dog, walking and feeding them forms part of this, not all of it. Hopefully you've learnt your lesson and will realise that actually, given any opportunity, dogs and bitches will do their darndest to get together, some don't even have to be entire if it's a *learned* behaviour. 

I hope your bitch is ok and doesn't suffer any lasting after effects, both the options of spaying and using Alizin have been recommended, personally, I'd opt for having her spayed if I were you.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The nature of online forums means that people are quick to respond with how they feel, which is not always perhaps what posters want to hear, but actually, although people are pretty honest on this forum and the breeding section can get quite *heated* I haven't seen any malicious posts in a very long time. It's very tame as forums go.
> 
> As regarding your situation, considering your bitch and dog could have been injured during the mating, probably a higher likelihood given the size difference, perhaps you can understand the frustration that this has happened twice.
> 
> ...


At nearly 10 do you think she is too old to be spayed?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> I love it how every time I come back you describe the situation worse and worse.* All I want is an apology *as I have said numerous times, you have NO idea on the circumstances e.g. why the dog isn't neutered etc so you are in no place to tell me I don't care for my dogs right! We try our best to keep them apart but as someone said 'where there is a will there is a way'.


You want an apology?

You're kidding, right?

As for the 'where there's a willl there's a way' - that's hilarious, what did your dog do, unlock the window herself?!

I think the other poster meant that where there's a will TO KEEP THE DOGS APART, you would find a WAY to do it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> At nearly 10 do you think she is too old to be spayed?


It depends on the individual dog, but if she's fit enough to go through a GA, these days, I'd suggest she's fit enough for a spay op.

I personally am very fussy about my vets, and insist on pretty much everything I want doing my way; I take on board all their advice, and then tell them if I agree and how I want things to happen, I am a paying customer after all. So I'd have a discussion with your vet, and discuss the options, but if she's fit and healthy enough there should be no reason she can't be spayed, and it would save any future worries.

You can also ask for bloods to be done to ensure she's fit enough to go through a GA, and extra fluids to flush the drugs through her system that bit quicker. My worry about Alizin is, that although it will most likely abort any possible litter successfully, it may throw her seasons out, so she could come in unexpectedly again, leaving you in another quandry.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> You want an apology?
> 
> You're kidding, right?
> 
> ...


yes, we trained her to do it, in case there is a fire. :mad5:


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It depends on the individual dog, but if she's fit enough to go through a GA, these days, I'd suggest she's fit enough for a spay op.
> 
> I personally am very fussy about my vets, and insist on pretty much everything I want doing my way; I take on board all their advice, and then tell them if I agree and how I want things to happen, I am a paying customer after all. So I'd have a discussion with your vet, and discuss the options, but if she's fit and healthy enough there should be no reason she can't be spayed, and it would save any future worries.
> 
> You can also ask for bloods to be done to ensure she's fit enough to go through a GA, and extra fluids to flush the drugs through her system that bit quicker. My worry about Alizin is, that although it will most likely abort any possible litter successfully, it may throw her seasons out, so she could come in unexpectedly again, leaving you in another quandry.


Well she is a very fit dog so I think she would get through it. Have you had any experience with using dog pants to stop them mating? We did order some but they were too small


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> Well she is a very fit dog so I think she would get through it. Have you had any experience with using dog pants to stop them mating? We did order some but they were too small


They wouldn't stop them from mating, and that's not the purpose of them even if they are being advertised as such. They are to catch up any blood and prevent an in season bitch from making a mess on carpets and soft furnishings.

I've got four bitches, and have looked after over 20 dogs at a time previously, all entire and a mixture of dogs and bitches. Some of the bitches have been in season during those times, but the only real way to keep them apart is through solid doors and walls. They can mate through crate bars even; you have to just remember to be methodical and ensure there is no way they can get through any aperture to get together.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They wouldn't stop them from mating, and that's not the purpose of them even if they are being advertised as such. They are to catch up any blood and prevent an in season bitch from making a mess on carpets and soft furnishings.
> 
> I've got four bitches, and have looked after over 20 dogs at a time previously, all entire and a mixture of dogs and bitches. Some of the bitches have been in season during those times, but the only real way to keep them apart is through solid doors and walls. They can mate through crate bars even; you have to just remember to be methodical and ensure there is no way they can get through any aperture to get together.


I know we try our hardest, but it obviously isn't enough. It is so easy just to leave a door open or in this case a window and not think twice. Dogs in season are so up for it as well :shocked:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> At nearly 10 do you think she is too old to be spayed?





henryfreston said:


> Well she is a very fit dog so I think she would get through it. Have you had any experience with using dog pants to stop them mating? We did order some but they were too small


If she's fit & healthy enough & the vet is happy to spay her I'd get her done, we had our GSD spayed at 8.

Oh & those dog pants are next to useless TBH


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

henryfreston said:


> At nearly 10 do you think she is too old to be spayed?


I have known bitches older that have been spayed a lot have been emergency spays too due to getting a pyometra which can be fatal if they are not operated on and the infected uterus removed and they have been fine.

If she is a fit healthy dog I dont see any reason why not personally. The vets can do pre-op blood tests anyway that will tell if the kidneys and liver etc are functioning well and if there will likely be any problems regarding anaesthesia.She will also have a check up to make sure heart and lungs etc are fine too before being put under so providing shes fit and the tests are done to make sure and alls OK you shouldnt have any problems.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> I love it how every time I come back you describe the situation worse and worse. All I want is an apology as I have said numerous times, you have NO idea on the circumstances e.g. why the dog isn't neutered etc so you are in no place to tell me I don't care for my dogs right! We try our best to keep them apart but as someone said 'where there is a will there is a way'.


Your dog is NINE nearly TEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You had an accident and you lost all the pups........... YOU chose not to spay or neuter, YOU chose to let a 9 year OLD lady go full term, YOU chose to leave her unspayed and your dog unneuter YOU not your dog YOU. Surprisingly most breeder manage to keep entire dogs apart all the time, very few might have one accident, but even less have two. What you seem to be missing is this is a pet forum, people care about pets and they care about your dog, of course people weren't going to say " there there there that's a shame", you asked for advise without saying you had spoken to the Vet, surely the Vet would have given you the same information as you got here.

Personally I'd find a bloody good Vet and get her spayed straight up if she is fit enough. If you find this offensive or rude so be it, my concern is your old girl and her health, not your dented pride................


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

Why would you go through the hassle of keeping uneutered male and female together anyway????


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> yes, we trained her to do it, in case there is a fire. :mad5:


LOL - that's actually a good one 

I really hope all goes well with your girl. I'm sure that's one thing we can all agree on.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

As I posted originally...I would deal with this problem by Alizin injections then in 6 to 8 weeks...when hormones are settled from the season...I would go ahead and spay. Some it seems would spay now but ideally a bitch is spayed roughly midway between seasons. I would err on the side of caution and spay in 6 weeks after Alizin administration...as this can cause the onset of the next season to come earlier than expected.

Hope your bitch is fine whatever you choose to do to correct this awful situation. 

Mistakes happen...so dont feel disheartened...it must not happen again though so spay/neuter of one or both your dogs in the VERY near future is ESSENTIAL


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Your dog is NINE nearly TEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You had an accident and you lost all the pups........... YOU chose not to spay or neuter, YOU chose to let a 9 year OLD lady go full term, YOU chose to leave her unspayed and your dog unneuter YOU not your dog YOU. Surprisingly most breeder manage to keep entire dogs apart all the time, very few might have one accident, but even less have two. What you seem to be missing is this is a pet forum, people care about pets and they care about your dog, of course people weren't going to say " there there there that's a shame", you asked for advise without saying you had spoken to the Vet, surely the Vet would have given you the same information as you got here.
> 
> Personally I'd find a bloody good Vet and get her spayed straight up if she is fit enough. If you find this offensive or rude so be it, my concern is your old girl and her health, not your dented pride................


thank you very much for your nice, kind advice. Cheers, hopefully I will meet you one day.

:cornut:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> thank you very much for your nice, kind advice. Cheers, hopefully I will meet you one day.
> 
> :cornut:


I doubt we will meet  but your welcome :skep:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

A side affect of the mismate injection is to bring a bitch back into season within days, so she will need to be split up from male  or your back at square one!


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

this is my boy :biggrin:

He is mine and the basset is the family's, just thought I would put a face to the dog. Reason we don't want to get him neutered is we have lots of people wanting to use him, so next year hopefully he will father some pups.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I take it he's KC registered and health tested?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> this is my boy :biggrin:
> 
> He is mine and the basset is the family's, just thought I would put a face to the dog. Reason we don't want to get him neutered is we have lots of people wanting to use him, so next year hopefully he will father some pups.


You have a lot of health tests to do before you even consider using him to be honest. And I would really think long and hard before you go ahead, as a stud dog owner/handler, you will need to become incredibly knowledgeable in a short space of time if you want to do things properly. This includes having a good knowledge of lines, and dog physiology, stud dog service can be very hands on with the assisting bit, and can include an internal examination of the bitch if it seems necessary, not just *cupping* things to aid them into place.

Health tests you need to have done imo are hip scores and elbow grading (done under GA), BVA current clear eye cert, and genetic status for CNM and PRA - some of these involve blood draws which can be done at your own vets, but the plates for hip scores and elbow grading should be done by an experienced vet, and the BVA eye cert can only be done by a panel member, a list of which is available on the BVA website.

I've copied and pasted the below for you, this is from an experienced stud dog owner/handler, and only covers the physical handling aspects and some of the emotional aspects which hopefully shows you what's involved, she owns Labradors btw:

I have been half meaning to write this for ages but only got round to it today after another memorable half hour occured to add to the list

Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance

Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:

1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery. 
What do you do? 
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown

What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.

2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!

3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.

4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....

5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.

6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.

7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.

Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!

9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.

10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes. 
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated. 
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.

So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud.

....Cos it isn't

I would also look at who is asking to use your boy, there are over 40,000 Labradors being registered with the KC annually atm, that figure is down on a few years ago. There are likely the same figure being bred at least unregistered. You have to ask yourself, honestly, what can your dog contribute towards the gene pool, or are you simply going to be doing it because you think it's going to bring a bit of spare cash, or you like the idea of a few of your boys pups running around. Because in all reality, unless he's proven in some way, you will not attract good quality bitches, or even health tested bitches, you will only attract those who have no hope of being accepted by a reputeable stud dog owner. That's not at all any comment on your boy, we all own the best dogs in the world, but breeding is by no means simple so please think long and hard about your plans to stand your boy at stud.

Edited to add, people are struggling to sell even well bred pups at the moment, from fully health tested parents, how would you feel thinking that pups from your boy are in unknown homes, might possibly have gone into rescue, and may even end up being put to sleep.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I take it he's KC registered and health tested?


he is, yes. Not sure he is going to father some pups, but he may well do if a bitch comes into season at the right time and it is the right owner


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You have a lot of health tests to do before you even consider using him to be honest. And I would really think long and hard before you go ahead, as a stud dog owner/handler, you will need to become incredibly knowledgeable in a short space of time if you want to do things properly. This includes having a good knowledge of lines, and dog physiology, stud dog service can be very hands on with the assisting bit, and can include an internal examination of the bitch if it seems necessary, not just *cupping* things to aid them into place.
> 
> Health tests you need to have done imo are hip scores and elbow grading (done under GA), BVA current clear eye cert, and genetic status for CNM and PRA - some of these involve blood draws which can be done at your own vets, but the plates for hip scores and elbow grading should be done by an experienced vet, and the BVA eye cert can only be done by a panel member, a list of which is available on the BVA website.
> 
> ...


thanks for the advice, as I said I am not positive we are going to use him and it is still very, very early doors but we are considering it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> he is, yes. Not sure he is going to father some pups, but he may well do if a bitch comes into season at the right time and it is the right owner


Can I ask why? I'm not trying to be argumentative or judgmental or anything else, I'm genuinely interested on why you would want to stud him?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> thanks for the advice, as I said I am not positive we are going to use him and it is still very, very early doors but we are considering it.


I'll be very honest with you, I own bitches, and the vast majority of *good* breeders I know, go into breeding from owning bitches first, and then possibly look at standing a dog at stud should the *right* one come along. Out of my four, my first bitch, Indie, I had health tested, but because she'd injured her knee, and her elbow grades weren't as good as they should be, I had her spayed. Sometimes the hardest decision is not to breed, she is a cracking character, and I had a good amount of people interested in pups. Handling a dog at stud is much more of a responsibility than producing one or two litters from a bitch, dogs have the propensity to sire so many more puppies, for that reason, I leave it to those with much more experience and knowledge out there; you wouldn't be alone if you went ahead, but if you went ahead without good knowledge, with a dog that is unproven (even if you do the health tests), and weren't sure of what you were doing, how would you feel being lumped in with all those who simply use their dog at stud because they can? Because there are, imo, far too many people breeding just because they can at the moment, a lot of them are ignorant of the problems unfortunately, and have the perception that they aren't contributing towards the overall problem of over breeding


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Devil-Dogz said:


> A side affect of the mismate injection is to bring a bitch back into season within days, so she will need to be split up from male  or your back at square one!


That's what I said way back on page one. :thumbup1:

@Henryfeston, hurry now time is of the essence. Hope your girl comes through everything okay.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

You're unable to prevent an unacceptable mating, twice. Yet you've managed to get your male dog fully health tested for the breed? :001_huh:

Sorry I find that very hard to believe as if you've done all the appropriate research to be a good, knowledgeable stud owner then you'd surely know how to prevent matings happening in the first place.

Sorry but it all seems a little far fetched. If your bitch is fit enough, get her spayed. Poor girl.

As for studding your dog out, consider the amount of labs out there, fully health tested, shown/worked, good examples of the breed ect. You need to assess what exactly your boy has to offer, as otherwise you may just get back yard breeders looking to make a few £££. Personally unless he has something worth bringing to the breed I'd just keep him as a pet, he may be good at doing the deed but it doesn't mean he'd be a good stud dog. Think of it as a bitches owner, you have a choice of many stud dogs (especially in a breed like labs) would you pick the unworked/not shown dog? or the working champ? If you are serious about studding him get him doing something like working or shown to get a name for himself.

However I suggest you buy the "book of the bitch" and read it cover to cover, 2-3 times. Especially after the past 2 "accidents".


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Can I ask why? I'm not trying to be argumentative or judgmental or anything else, I'm genuinely interested on why you would want to stud him?


just thought it would be funny

***Joking***

If I am honest I really have no idea apart from the fact it is an amazing experience and it means we can rear on another pup whom has the same genes as Bertie. I also like the thought of his genes getting passed on for generations. We know what a healthy, sturdy and well tempered dog he is!

May I ask the same question (that is if you have considered breeding)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> he is, yes. Not sure he is going to father some pups, but he may well do if a bitch comes into season at the right time and it is the right owner


Just spotted your reply, I'm taking it you have had him hip scored then? And more health tests done? If so, can I ask what results you got?

Also, is your boy working bred or show bred?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> just thought it would be funny
> 
> ***Joking***
> 
> ...


I have considered and decided not to breed either my Siamese Cats or my dogs.

My cats are shown and have done well in the show ring, the breeder allowed me a female on an active register she is coming up 8 months and being spayed like the other 3 Siamese.

I've never even considered it with any of my male dogs they are all KC Registered and good examples of the breed. We have a young pup just starting out, who will be shown, even if he does really well in the show ring and we are approached to use him for Stud, I honestly think I would decline, I know the breeder would lift his endorsements. My reasoning is firstly on the female cat, I would never forgive myself if something happened to her, or the kittens. For the dogs again, there are plenty of good breeder out there, breeding from good lines, and good stock with fantastic temp, why would I want to use my male when there are plenty others out there, if you want a pup, go to one of the many fantastic breeder out there... For me to much worry and concern and often heartbreak involved in breeding, if my boy was to sire pups I would be involved also in the litter, i'd never forgive myself if I was involved in the breeding of a dog that end up living a hateful life just because I wanted to use my boy for stud and amazing experience, my boy is from good lines, and will be shown and worked, but even at that I won't stud him :frown2:


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> just thought it would be funny
> 
> ***Joking***
> 
> ...


Did you find out why all the pups from her first accidental mating were dead at birth?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Did you find out why all the pups from her first accidental mating were dead at birth?


Good point!


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Did you find out why all the pups from her first accidental mating were dead at birth?


there were two pups, one came out breach (a larger, healthier one) and died as a result (suffocated) and the second one was very small and her being a very inexperienced mum did not have the patience to let it feed. By the time the vets or any other shops were open to get formula for her, she had died.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

so not only did you allow your dog to become pregnant, at a very late age you went ahead with it, you then was not prepared and as a result two puppies died. 

Thats bad enough as it is but then we read the same ''accident'' has happened again... not only that you are considering studding your dog out, you are an inexperienced stud owner, with an unproven dog, that lets face it is not even health tested (im not fooled)! no one with a correct breeding ethic would approach you for a stud! shame that as I believe no matter the ethics of the folk wanting to use your male, you will go ahead...- I mean why would you question someone else for their ethics, when you have none yourself


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> there were two pups, one came out breach (a larger, healthier one) and died as a result (suffocated) and the second one was very small and her being a very inexperienced mum did not have the patience to let it feed. By the time the vets or any other shops were open to get formula for her, she had died.


Honest hat on, you really don't know enough at this point in time to consider using your boy at stud. You said you'd had him health tested? Can I ask what for and what the results were? And what sort of lines he's from?

We all have to start somewhere when it comes to breeding, but if you go ahead and then live to regret it, for me, you've gone about things the wrong way round. So for now, I'd ignore anyone pressuring you, even by simply telling you to use him when they haven't got any knowledge about breeding, and do an awful lot of research instead.

Buy yourself a book called the book of the bitch, it explains the physiology of dogs and bitches, and the breeding process, it's a good start for anyone wanting to learn about dog breeding. But also think long and hard about the ethical side of breeding, there are enough people, as I've said, simply breeding dogs, some of them health test, but that doesn't make a good breeder on it's own, not for me anyway.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Tragic! 

That sort of thing can happen to old (nine is old for a bitch to be having her first litter) inexperienced maiden bitches.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Honest hat on, you really don't know enough at this point in time to consider using your boy at stud. You said you'd had him health tested? Can I ask what for and what the results were? And what sort of lines he's from?
> 
> We all have to start somewhere when it comes to breeding, but if you go ahead and then live to regret it, for me, you've gone about things the wrong way round. So for now, I'd ignore anyone pressuring you, even by simply telling you to use him when they haven't got any knowledge about breeding, and do an awful lot of research instead.
> 
> Buy yourself a book called the book of the bitch, it explains the physiology of dogs and bitches, and the breeding process, it's a good start for anyone wanting to learn about dog breeding. But also think long and hard about the ethical side of breeding, there are enough people, as I've said, simply breeding dogs, some of them health test, but that doesn't make a good breeder on it's own, not for me anyway.


I never said I an definitely going to breed him and I even said it is ver, very early doors, appreciate the advice though. I only said he had been health tested because I thought everyone would jump on me if I said he hadn't :001_huh:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I find it very shocking that anyone would allow a bitch of nine years to have a litter... Be it a first, second or third .. poor girl .


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

i am not a person to critisise but why did you let a female dog get to the age of 9 without getting her spayed a long time ago???


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> I never said I an definitely going to breed him and I even said it is ver, very early doors, appreciate the advice though. I only said he had been health tested because I thought everyone would jump on me if I said he hadn't :001_huh:


No-one will jump on you for not having done the health tests yet, but you have to be honest with yourself and others when breeding. When I first considered breeding, I was told by some to keep Indie's elbow grades hidden, obviously had anyone wanted to see them, they could have looked them up on the KC website, but I was told not to post them openly, and still take a litter. I took a step back at that point, and decided if I couldn't be honest and open about breeding, including with myself, then I shouldn't be thinking about it even.

It does matter what others think about you, yes, but what matters most is what you think about yourself, and whether you're happy about how you've gone about breeding.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

paddyjulie said:


> I find it very shocking that anyone would allow a bitch of nine years to have a litter... Be it a first, second or third .. poor girl .


we went to the vet when we first suspected she may be pregnant (after they had locked) and the vet was happy to go ahead with the pregnancy. They did an x-ray of her hips to find she had wide hips and because she is such a fit dog she had a very good muscle:fat ratio so there was almost no fat causing the birthing canal to be any thinner. We just followed the vets advice.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

henryfreston said:


> All I want is an apology


For what, precisely?



henryfreston said:


> just thought it would be funny
> 
> ***Joking***
> 
> ...


The pups might be nothing like him.



henryfreston said:


> I never said I an definitely going to breed him and I even said it is ver, very early doors, appreciate the advice though. I only said he had been health tested because I thought everyone would jump on me if I said he hadn't :001_huh:


So you lied? His health tests results aren't in fact on the KC website because he isn't hip, eye and elbow scored?!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> we went to the vet when we first suspected she may be pregnant (after they had locked) and the vet was happy to go ahead with the pregnancy. They did an x-ray of her hips to find she had wide hips and because she is such a fit dog she had a very good muscle:fat ratio so there was almost no fat causing the birthing canal to be any thinner. We just followed the vets advice.


There has been some shocking advice posted regarding breeding and vet advice previously, that's another thing you really need to look at, finding a vet you can trust when it comes to canine reproduction. Some of them are just awful!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> we went to the vet when we first suspected she may be pregnant (after they had locked) and the vet was happy to go ahead with the pregnancy. They did an x-ray of her hips to find she had wide hips and because she is such a fit dog she had a very good muscle:fat ratio so there was almost no fat causing the birthing canal to be any thinner. We just followed the vets advice.


I take it she was very early on in pregnancy when the xray was done, for the vet to advice continuing?


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There has been some shocking advice posted regarding breeding and vet advice previously, that's another thing you really need to look at, finding a vet you can trust when it comes to canine reproduction. Some of them are just awful!


It is weird because even though we found out she was pregnant very early, not once did they mention an injection or anything hense I came on here to ask for advice because the vets did not suggest anything.

By the way thanks for giving such sound advice sleeping_lion thanks for just giving me advice instead of criticizing me. ^ that is someone who cares about the dog.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> It is weird because even though we found out she was pregnant very early, not once did they mention an injection or anything hense I came on here to ask for advice because the vets did not suggest anything.
> 
> By the way thanks for giving such sound advice sleeping_lion thanks for just giving me advice instead of criticizing me. ^ that is someone who cares about the dog.


Honestly, we all care about dogs on here. I think having seen so many threads like this, and spoken to so many people thinking about breeding, I've learned to take a step back. I can be as critical as the next person, but I think when people are listening to what you're saying, there's no point in carrying on labouring the same point, I'd rather spend the time helping people understand the issues and learning more about the subject


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> this is my boy :biggrin:
> 
> He is mine and the basset is the family's, just thought I would put a face to the dog. Reason we don't want to get him neutered is we have lots of people wanting to use him, so next year hopefully he will father some pups.


PLEASE PLEASE tell us that your lovely boy has had all the vital health tests?

Do you know how painful hip dysplasia can be for a young dog? I implore you to get your boy and the bitch you're using hip scored - both of them, hip scored. If their hip scores are over the breed average please DON'T breed from them!

Eye tests will also be needed - if you click the link in my signature it will take you to a page with the vital tests.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> PLEASE PLEASE tell us that your lovely boy has had all the vital health tests?


You need to read on a bit hen


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

So as yet no health tests?

If you must use your boy as a stud, for goodness sake get him hip scored and make damn sure the bitch is hip scored too. If the scores are over the breed average please do not go ahead!

Please also note, there are SO many lovely Labs in rescues across the UK. There are also Labs being PTS when their time in the pound is up and there are no homes nor rescue spaces for them.

The link in my signature will take you to a page with details about health tests for Labs.

PLEASE DO NOT BRING YET MORE LAB PUPPIES INTO THE WORLD THAT MAY SUFFER FROM HIP DYSPLASIA OR POOR EYE SIGHT


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You need to read on a bit hen


Your a better person than me , I will bow out of this conversation and leave it to those that can control their temper 

I'll go home and care for my dog, why should I waste anymore emotion caring for someones dog who couldn't give a flying f....

I hope the bitch manages to come through this unscathed again.

As for studding the dog people just never cease to astound me.... 

I'm out..................... :frown2:


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

OK thanks guys you have opened my eyes a bit. I was already aware of the issues involved with breeding but it is not up until now that I realized quite how serious it is! You will probably be shocked at this but one of the people on the shoot had a bitch in season and they asked if thy could use Bertie. I said maybe and I said I can give you my number. He replied ''We I have got her here now, can we just let them get on with it in the car park'' (after the shoot we go to the pub for a meal) I don't even think he realized that they locked together for up to and over half and hour! Obviously I declined :biggrin:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> OK thanks guys you have opened my eyes a bit. I was already aware of the issues involved with breeding but it is not up until now that I realized quite how serious it is! You will probably be shocked at this but one of the people on the shoot had a bitch in season and they asked if thy could use Bertie. I said maybe and I said I can give you my number. He replied ''We I have got her here now, can we just let them get on with it in the car park'' (after the shoot we go to the pub for a meal) I don't even think he realized that they locked together for up to and over half and hour! Obviously I declined :biggrin:


I'm surprised he wasn't kicked off the shoot for having a bitch in season there!! Not exactly what you want the dogs to focus on. But, well done for telling them no, and well done for hanging around to learn more, and take any criticism on the chin.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm surprised he wasn't kicked off the shoot for having a bitch in season there!! Not exactly what you want the dogs to focus on. But, well done for telling them no, and well done for hanging around to learn more, and take any criticism on the chin.


It is a very relaxed shoot. We normally only shoot between 50 and 100 birds 

And he picks up so is normally far away from any of the other dogs.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Here are the health tests that both Labs would need before you breed from them:

Labrador Health: What Health Tests should my pups parents have?


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Sorry but this just beggars belief  ..... i seriously cannot believe what i am reading ......


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

I've probably made a few more peoples nights more interesting that's for sure. What have we had in this tread now then?
- debate
- violence
- discussion
- a million different topics 
- angry people


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> I've probably made a few more peoples nights more interesting that's for sure. What have we had in this tread now then?
> - debate
> - violence
> - discussion
> ...


I hate to burst your bubble, but there have been sooooooooo much more controversial first time posters in the breeding section than you


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but there have been sooooooooo much more controversial first time posters in the breeding section than you


link one me finks :thumbup1:


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

As long as this poor unfortunate bitch is going to get her problem sorted out then I'm happy to have contributed in a minor way to this thread.

Give that lovely girl a big cuddle from me please Henryfeston. 

Good night all!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> link one me finks :thumbup1:


Just have a read through, they're not difficult to find, although the further you go back the more *feisty* they get! Anything where the title reads something along the lines of 'Ooops my fluffy wuffy poochy girl got caught out by the entire dog I happen to own as well' will have a few contentious posts


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

henryfreston said:


> I've probably made a few more peoples nights more interesting that's for sure. What have we had in this tread now then?
> - debate
> - violence
> - discussion
> ...


Just a Normal day on PF then!!:frown2:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> Well she is a very fit dog so I think she would get through it. *Have you had any experience with using dog pants to stop them mating? *We did order some but they were too small


Oh FFS!

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until I read this.

DOG PANTS WILL NOT STOP A DOG AND BITCH MATING!


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Words fail me....

Why on earth would you have an entire male and female together - especially when the bitch is 10 years old?

Even more so, when you let her get pregnant last year, progress with the pregnancy, and the pups died??

Why would you even do that?

Yeah you can harp on about people not knowing your circumstances - get real 

You have two entire dogs of opposite sexes in near vicinity, when the female is in heat - thats your own stupidity actually. There are _no _circumstances that can make that right, when you've already let her pregnant at 9 years old, and again at 10 years old!

Those dogs, and their wellbeing, are _your_ responsibility - no excuses.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> Words fail me....
> 
> Why on earth would you have an entire male and female together - especially when the bitch is 10 years old?
> 
> ...


cheers for the motivational speech, but I think we have covered that thanks. :thumbup1:


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Oh FFS!
> 
> I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until I read this.
> 
> DOG PANTS WILL NOT STOP A DOG AND BITCH MATING!


these ones I bought have a padlock on


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

henryfreston said:


> these ones I bought have a padlock on


you're being deliberately rude now.
i can't add anything to what everyone else has said (even without reading the last few pages) but even after dealing with a dead litter it's lovely to see you an still joke about your negligence.
do you Still not know that even mating can kill a bitch if she pulls away?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

henryfreston said:


> We have got in touch with the vet and she will be having a jab. This is the problem on these forums people are just too quick to judge. You just presume that we have not contacted the vet or anything. All I was after was advice. You don't know the situation so please don't say things like 'why wasn't he neutered' and 'how has this happened twice?'.
> 
> Now you will probably come back saying something on the lines of 'no need to be abusive, we were only trying to help' well, I was only looking for advice on what to do, not questioning on my husbandry and the 'abuse' you presume I give to my dog.
> 
> Oh and thank you to the people who did just give their advice without feeling the need to have a go


I don't think anyone is going to say that in your case. I cannot think of anything less responsible than allowing an entire male and an entire female to be together. One or both should have been neutered, but even after a dead litter and further pregnancy, you still seem reluctant. It won't just be the puppies that die this time; it will be the bitch as well.



henryfreston said:


> Well she is a very fit dog so I think she would get through it. Have you had any experience with using dog pants to stop them mating? We did order some but they were too small


Dog pants are some sort of canine sanitary towel, aren't they? How are they supposed to stop an over sexed entire dog?



henryfreston said:


> these ones I bought have a padlock on


Now I have finally realised that it is school holiday time and the poor souls have nothing better to do but see what trouble they can cause on a forum of pet lovers.

If you are for real, get your poor bitch to the vets, get her spayed, and keep her away from the dog until she is healed. She is not too old to be spayed - she is too old to be pregnant.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

henryfreston said:


> cheers for the motivational speech, but I think we have covered that thanks. :thumbup1:


A shame you are too unintelligent to have learnt anything then really isn't it.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

one has to question is this a wind up or sheer ignorance ? ffs


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

It beggars belief that someone could come on the forum for advice, get the advice, then turn all sh***y because some folks are honest enough to speak their minds. I expect they probably thought that everyone would say "How horrible for you, you must be really upset for that to happen!" and "There, there dear we will make it alright for you!" 

Sometimes some folks need a reality check not feckin sympathy, tbh I think that we all have kept a tight rein on our emotions and we should all give ourselves a pat-on-the-back for being so nice and polite.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> you're being deliberately rude now.
> i can't add anything to what everyone else has said (even without reading the last few pages) but even after dealing with a dead litter it's lovely to see you an still joke about your negligence.
> do you Still not know that even mating can kill a bitch if she pulls away?


My comment was a joke 
So after something bad had happened I just have to be constantly sad?
Jeese. You guys keep coming back, I find it laughable. But I don't really care because I have got my advice and for your info I have absorbed it and we have got an appointment booked at 4.30. Thanks for the people that contributed and to the people that can't take a joke, just chill man


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The problem is it gets abit boring, and upsetting on here watching these types of thread continuing to pop up. I dont think its a laughing matter, its a flipping crying shame.

Breeding itself isnt a joke. - Theres living animals involved that deserve a damn sight more respect!


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The problem is it gets abit boring, and upsetting on here watching these types of thread continuing to pop up. I dont think its a laughing matter, its a flipping crying shame.
> 
> Breeding itself isnt a joke. - Theres living animals involved that deserve a damn sight more respect!


I'm not in anyway being dis-respectful of the animals. All I am doing is having a bit of banter to lighten the mood a bit which you guys seem intent on keeping it grim :mad5: :frown2:


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> My comment was a joke
> So after something bad had happened I just have to be constantly sad?
> Jeese. You guys keep coming back, I find it laughable. But I don't really care because I have got my advice and for your info I have absorbed it and we have got an appointment booked at 4.30. Thanks for the people that contributed and to the people that can't take a joke, just chill man


Trouble is it isn't a laughing matter, what has happened is very serious.

If you feel like having a joke then we do have a Joke's thread over in General Chat - I'm sure folks will be only to happy to have a banter with you there.

However, when a thread is started here asking for advice about a very serious subject, members will be inclined not find it very funny. Trying to turn it all into a joke to save face will not cut it either I'm afraid.

I'm glad you have got your girl booked in at the vets. Hope all goes well and I would appreciate an update here, that is, if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks! and Good luck!


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Trouble is it isn't a laughing matter, what has happened is very serious.
> 
> If you feel like having a joke then we do have a Joke's thread over in General Chat - I'm sure folks will be only to happy to have a banter with you there.
> 
> ...


can I just say that I am by no means laughing at the subject, just having banter with other members in a light hearted way


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> all I was after was the different methods that could be used. Because believe it or not vets are not robots so from time to time and actually quite often they will forget about different treatments that could be a better alternative.
> 
> Can I just say that you really can't judge people over the internet when you don't have a clue what happened. And I will tell you what happened. We have kept them seperate fro about 10 days now. Sometimes we put the male lab outside when it is sunny. And this particular day a window was left open in the kitchen and the bitch escaped and we found them locked in the garden. If I bloody well said 'we put them together to see what they would do then they locked together' I can understand but seriously you ought to re-think what you say sometimes because it can actually be quite disrespectful.


God, we can only respond to what you type. You know how dogs and bitches act together when one is on heat and the male is unneutered, an open window is a big dog flap to them. I hope your bitch is ok and she gets spayed. Then we'll have no need to 'abuse' you again, not that I've seen much evidence when there is a clear legit reason for the non abusive replies.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> this is my boy :biggrin:
> 
> He is mine and the basset is the family's, just thought I would put a face to the dog. Reason we don't want to get him neutered is we have lots of people wanting to use him, so next year hopefully he will father some pups.


I'm not even going to dip my toe into these shark-nfested waters!

(Nice looking dog, BTW)


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

In practical terms, you do know that now your boy has "nibbled the cherry" so to speak, he is going to be much harder work for you, and if there is a bitch in season in the next county, never mind the next street, he will do his damndest to get out and have his evil way with her. 

You sound as if you live somewhere fairly rural, so bear in mind that he might not only have/cause a motor accident, but if you are near fields etc, he could get trampled by cattle, kicked by horses or shot if a farmer thinks he is worrying sheep. Not to mention landing someone else (who might not be able to have their bitch spayed for valid reasons) with an unexpected, unwanted and possibly (for their dog) fatal litter of puppies.

Please consider neutering him, too.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2013)

If you can't keep your dog or bitch from breeding unintentionally - repeatedly, have them both neutered. Simple.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> can I just say that I am by no means laughing at the subject, just having banter with other members in a light hearted way


For banter please head that-a-way ------> http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/309885-jokes-about-men-jokes-about-women.html


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

I've only read to page 5 but just had to say thank you to Sleeping Lion for posting that page 4 post.

My puppy will be a stud if only once and, though I know its not just putting them together and have been researching studding, every little helps and your post helped bundles.

So thank you.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Accidents can happen (as I well know) they can even happen twice, although they really shouldn't and hopefully for your girls sake you can rectify this recent one with an emergency spay or at least a mis mate jab. 

Your poor old girl shouldn't have to be dealing with all this at her age, she should be enjoying her older years not having dead pups and major surgery or injections to end a riskier than most pregnancy. If you don't do it now please have her spayed after the mismate injection, personally if the vet is okay with a spay (considering her age or possible risk involved at this time) I'd go with that if I were you. You'll have two happier dogs all round, your boy won't be frustrated with her having more seasons and she will not be at risk of pyometra, which is a killer in itself and a pretty fast one too. 

My worry would be all this messing about with her uterus could lead to infection somewhere along the line and if its closed pyometra you may not notice it and your girl could be a gonna in no time. I couldn't live with that on my concience and I bet you couldn't either, not when it's so easily avoided.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

henryfreston said:


> My comment was a joke
> So after something bad had happened I just have to be constantly sad?
> Jeese. You guys keep coming back, I find it laughable. But I don't really care because I have got my advice and for your info I have absorbed it and we have got an appointment booked at 4.30. Thanks for the people that contributed and to the people that can't take a joke, just chill man


Was is a big old joke and knees up when your 9 year old girl gave birth to 2 puppies that you didn't bother to rush to the emergency vet and just left them till normal working hours and they died? 

They seriously need to bring back some sort of tests and licence for owning pets, this has to be a troll thread, I hope 



Kicksforkills said:


> I've only read to page 5 but just had to say thank you to Sleeping Lion for posting that page 4 post.
> 
> My puppy will be a stud if only once and, though I know its not just putting them together and have been researching studding, every little helps and your post helped bundles.
> 
> So thank you.


IF he is a pup he wont have had health tests/shown yet? But I would have thought if he is a good example why only stud him once? Whats the point? (serious question)


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

catlove844 said:


> Was is a big old joke and knees up when your 9 year old girl gave birth to 2 puppies that you didn't bother to rush to the emergency vet and just left them till normal working hours and they died?


I would have got the emergency vet, too - stuff the cost!

What did the OP intend to do with the puppies had they been born alive and thrived? These are both breeds that tend towards large litters - there could have been ten pups to find good homes for.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

catlove844 said:


> IF he is a pup he wont have had health tests/shown yet? But I would have thought if he is a good example why only stud him once? Whats the point? (serious question)


He has been shown since he was 6 months, the last show we did was our first all-breed open show where he got Best Puppy In Breed and 4th in Toy Puppy Group.

He turned 8 months old a few days ago.

We have about twelve or so rosettes so far. That's not counting a few times that we just received a card, no rosette.

He has no health tests yet.

Depending on where he is in his show career, the once is in his contract to one of his breeder's bitches. Of course only when he is at least two, the contract states that it is at a time to suit both her and me.

His father is an international champion and his mother is from a very old line for the breed. In view of the breeding his breeder asked me previously if I would mind one free stud to her bitch. I've met the potential bitch and she is very nice.

If he were a Champion before he was too old, I may think on studding him more.

He is the best of the litter.

Feel free to ask me anymore questions : )


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_If he were a Champion before he was too old, I may think on studding him more._

It's a bit presumptious to think that winning one Best Puppy at an all breed Open Show where many judges don't even know the breed, might lead to a future Champion on your hands!


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Westy said:


> _If he were a Champion before he was too old, I may think on studding him more._
> 
> It's a bit presumptious to think that winning one Best Puppy at an all breed Open Show where many judges don't even know the breed, might lead to a future Champion!


Why does anyone show their dog if they don't think they can be a Champion?

I didn't say that's why I think he possibly could be a champion one day.

There's many reasons I think he could be. We're in the breed clubs and many people have said he shoud be nice when in coat. Not that he isn't nice now.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Good luck.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Thank you, welcome to the forums.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Accidents can happen


You know, I hear this all the time... 
Yet I also know several breeders - all different breeds, who have been breeding for decades, multiple dogs on site, who have somehow NEVER had an "accident." 
Knowing how to keep a dog and bitch separated means knowing what might cause an "accident".

And not for nothing, I also know that a lot of males have a really hard time living with a bitch in heat. They pine, they go off their food, they drop weight by the bucketload, they're miserable. 
I think that's a LOT to ask of some dogs. Why would you put your dog through that?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kicksforkills said:


> I've only read to page 5 but just had to say thank you to Sleeping Lion for posting that page 4 post.
> 
> My puppy will be a stud if only once and, though I know its not just putting them together and have been researching studding, every little helps and your post helped bundles.
> 
> So thank you.


I have to say, I didn't write the bit in blue at all, that's by someone called Di Stevens of Wylanbriar Labradors, I've copied and pasted it a few times (with Di's permission and not just on here) as it really gives an insight into how things can happen. It doesn't touch on a lot of things such as learning about pedigrees, turning away bitches that aren't suitable for whatever reason, including poor/no health scores etc. But just that one insight into the handling of a dog and bitch at the point of mating, really is quite telling.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have to say, I didn't write the bit in blue at all, that's by someone called Di Stevens of Wylanbriar Labradors, I've copied and pasted it a few times (with Di's permission and not just on here) as it really gives an insight into how things can happen. It doesn't touch on a lot of things such as learning about pedigrees, turning away bitches that aren't suitable for whatever reason, including poor/no health scores etc. But just that one insight into the handling of a dog and bitch at the point of mating, really is quite telling.


Oh, I know you didn't write that part. Saying thanks anyway :laugh:


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

***sneaks out the back door***


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> ***sneaks out the back door***


Before you do how's your girl doing?


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Kicksforkills said:


> He has been shown since he was 6 months, the last show we did was our first all-breed open show where he got Best Puppy In Breed and 4th in Toy Puppy Group.
> 
> He turned 8 months old a few days ago.
> 
> ...


All I would be worried about is him changing  From being mated then you have no say over the pups as its your breeders girl, Id have to know and be involved in it all


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

henryfreston said:


> ***sneaks out the back door***


Did she have the mis-mate injection? OR does she not actually exist?


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I did ask Henryfeston for an update, but obviously he doesnt think we are concerned enough about the old girl to reply. *note to self - Henryfeston may not be all he purports to be*


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

still here just will all the conflict going on I thought I would exit. She has had the injection and is doing fine :thumbsup:


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

henryfreston said:


> still here just will all the conflict going on I thought I would exit. She has had the injection and is doing fine :thumbsup:


How much was it?


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

catlove844 said:


> How much was it?


£80, why?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

henryfreston said:


> still here just will all the conflict going on I thought I would exit. She has had the injection and is doing fine :thumbsup:


Just 1 injection? No follow up 24 hours later?


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

chichi said:


> Just 1 injection? No follow up 24 hours later?


done..... (two injections)


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

henryfreston said:


> done..... (two injections)


So what procedures have you put in place to make sure it can't happen AGAIN ?

Most people i know have to send there entire dogs away if they have a bitch in heat , unless you have a very ridged set up i would say it's almost impossible in a normal home. Dogs can open doors, jump trough windows


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

catlove844 said:


> All I would be worried about is him changing  From being mated then you have no say over the pups as its your breeders girl, Id have to know and be involved in it all


Oh yeah. My breeder is the kind of woman who would let me be involved in the litter. We send emails almost daily to each other.

I know it'll more than likely change him. I'm prepared for it.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> £80, why?


Probably skeptical that you actually had the injection done.

Considering how concerned you seem to be about the tone and direction of this thread, it seems to me like you would have jumped on the opportunity to tell us all to calm down and relax now because your bitch did get the injections and is doing just fine. Yet, you didn't... Odd...


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

I can assure you it has been done. We have also booked in bert to have his nadgers off so when she comes back into season in around 6 weeks he won't be producing.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> I can assure you it has been done. We have also booked in bert to have his nadgers off so when she comes back into season in around 6 weeks he won't be producing.


I'm afraid he could! Has your vet really said this?


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> I can assure you it has been done. We have also booked in bert to have his nadgers off so when she comes back into season in around 6 weeks he won't be producing.


Yeah... sorry but your personal assurance doesn't mean much at this point. 
You've already lied about your boy being health tested: 


henryfreston said:


> I only said he had been health tested because I thought everyone would jump on me if I said he hadn't :001_huh:


And you lied to save face. Call me a skeptic, but it seems like deja vu all over again with the latest posts where you seem to be trying to save face.
Given some of your responses, either you have the most incompetent vet ever, or you haven't really talked about any of this with him/her.


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## henryfreston (Jun 5, 2013)

the vets said it will usually take 4-6 weeks for him to become infertile. If not I can always put him in a kennel or have a friend look after him.

You may be wondering ''why not just get our bitch spayed?'' it is because the vets said they have to wait at least 8 weeks after her season because her blood vessels will be very dialated which makes invasive surgery very tricky. And once his nadgers are off, hopefully the next time she comes into season (I am talking about the season after the one she has after the mismate injaction) we will have no problems.

Will all of his desires go away once he has had them off? Forgot to ask the vet 

Thanks


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

henryfreston said:


> the vets said it will usually take 4-6 weeks for him to become infertile. If not I can always put him in a kennel or have a friend look after him.
> 
> You may be wondering ''why not just get our bitch spayed?'' it is because the vets said they have to wait at least 8 weeks after her season because her blood vessels will be very dialated which makes invasive surgery very tricky. And once his nadgers are off, hopefully the next time she comes into season (I am talking about the season after the one she has after the mismate injaction) we will have no problems.
> 
> ...


It could take longer, there are accounts of neutered dogs siring litters a few months after the operation.

Unfortunately, because he's had a couple of bites of the cherry, so to speak, it may not remove his desire to mate, and dogs can still tie with bitches when they're neutered, so you will have to keep a close eye on him and assess his behaviour I'm afraid.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2013)

henryfreston said:


> the vets said it will usually take 4-6 weeks for him to become infertile. If not I can always put him in a kennel or have a friend look after him.
> 
> You may be wondering ''why not just get our bitch spayed?'' it is because the vets said they have to wait at least 8 weeks after her season because her blood vessels will be very dialated which makes invasive surgery very tricky. And once his nadgers are off, hopefully the next time she comes into season (I am talking about the season after the one she has after the mismate injaction) we will have no problems.
> 
> ...


Seriously? Get a new vet.
It's not unusual for a neutered dog to "tie" with a bitch in heat. And why put your bitch through heats, potential false pregnancies, risk of pyo (which increases dramatically with age), etc. 
Spay your bitch for her sake.
And if you can't keep your boy from mating unintentionally, get him neutered too.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Given your bitch's age, a laparoscopic spay would be a less invasive alternative. Just the ovaries are removed, using keyhole surgery. Recovery time is much quicker. It costs more than a conventional spay where the uterus is removed too. 

It's what I'll be having done on my bitch in due course.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It could take longer, there are accounts of neutered dogs siring litters a few months after the operation.
> 
> Unfortunately, because he's had a couple of bites of the cherry, so to speak, it may not remove his desire to mate, and dogs can still tie with bitches when they're neutered, so you will have to keep a close eye on him and assess his behaviour I'm afraid.


Yep, Bumble was neutered at 2 years old as he hated showing so I didn't see the point but he will still try and 'hump' a bitch, drool, tremble at the mouth etc etc and he has never tied.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Given your bitch's age, a laparoscopic spay would be a less invasive alternative. Just the ovaries are removed, using keyhole surgery. Recovery time is much quicker. It costs more than a conventional spay where the uterus is removed too.
> 
> It's what I'll be having done on my bitch in due course.


But that's not going to prevent pyo which would be my reason for having a bitch spayed. 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess this henryfreston person isn't very clued in to the symptoms of pyo, especially closed pyo....


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Doesn't the mismate injection put a bitch back in season?

The testosterone will take time to subside in a male dog and up to 6 weeks later, he can still be fertile.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> But that's not going to prevent pyo which would be my reason for having a bitch spayed.
> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess this henryfreston person isn't very clued in to the symptoms of pyo, especially closed pyo....


Yes, it does - pyo is caused by hormonal changes, remove the hormones and the risk is gone even if the uterus remains.

That said, I think it is not only the recovery, but a big a risk to an older dog is the anaesthetic. Shame they didn't consider spaying her when she was younger.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Yes, it does - pyo is caused by hormonal changes, remove the hormones and the risk is gone even if the uterus remains


I did not know that! Thank you, doing some research now :thumbsup:


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