# Breeding from a non kc registered bitch.



## nevenoah (Mar 15, 2008)

hi was thinking about breeding my dachshund bitch in her second season, she is not kc registered but is a pedigree. I only want to breed her as i have 4 sisters and a mother who all want pups, obviously i will have to do a lot of reading up on it and look for for a stud as she is only four and a half month old, but just wondered what peoples views were on non kc mating.


----------



## Guest (May 21, 2008)

I don't believe in mating non KC reg bitches.

Breeding for the reason given is not a good enough reason to be breeding in all honesty.
All Breeders should be breeding to improve the breed,to show or work.Your family may say they want pups now,but what happens if they change their minds and this does happen.

You can loose a bitch and all pups if whelping gets complicated,what if the bitch rejects her pups can you hand rear,this means feeding puppies every 2 hours day & night.
Can you cope with complications,stillborn pups,pups that have defects that need putting to sleep etc....
Believe me breeding is not simple,it's hardwork,very tiring and at times downright heartbreaking.


----------



## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Agree with all the above and would also like to add this :- Most Dach owners who will have nice stud boys wont let you use them due to your girl not being KC Reg.....the studs available for you to use would probably be of bad standard.
Tell your relatives to buy one from a good breeder who health check etc


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sorry but i disagree. i think if you only want them as pets and you have no intention of showing your dog, there's nothing wrong with it not being kc reg.
1 of my toy poodles is not reg. but he is pedigree.


----------



## basi (Nov 9, 2007)

I agree with other posts I'm afraid and also your bitch might only be just over a year old on her 2nd season which is far too young to be breeding her. She should be at least 2 and also be health tested before it is even considered.
I would suggest that your family members go to a responsible breeder to get a puppy.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> sorry but i disagree. i think if you only want them as pets and you have no intention of showing your dog, there's nothing wrong with it not being kc reg.
> 1 of my toy poodles is not reg. but he is pedigree.


All KC Reg dogs from good reputable Breeders are sold as pets first and foremost,any dog can have a pedigree,it doesn't mean they are purebred.

By breeding from a Non KC Registered Dog,you can't trace it's history,or possibly know what health conditions hereditary or otherwise are within those lines.

Potential health problems can include,
Intervertebral disc disease

Epilepsy

Entropion (the inversion, or turning inward, of the border of the eyelid against the eyeball)

Gastric Torsion

Patellar Luxation ( The patella, or kneecap, is part of the stifle joint (knee). In patellar luxation, the kneecap luxates, or pops out of place )

These conditions can all be passed on through breeding.

UN-REGISTERED PUPPIES

Some people think that they will save some money and buy a cheaper unregistered puppy. Don't fall into this trap. You might as well get a cross breed, free to good home.

Without KC registration you have no proof that the puppies are in fact from pedigree parents, they may look pedigree at 8 weeks to an inexperienced buyer and then grow into a dog that is obviously a cross breed. Those that do not register are probably breeding from over age bitches (bitches should not have puppies after their eighth birthday without KC permission, which is rarely given). Also a bitch owner may not register more than one litter a year from her, which is an excellent new ruling.

Those that don't register puppies can breed from their bitch every six months without a break, which is appalling practise. It also means they can breed as often as they like and from as many bitches as they like without having to have their premises inspected or be licensed and the conditions are likely to be very poor. This sort of breeder is only motivated by making money and cares nothing for their dogs or the future of their breed, whatever they may say or whatever excuses they give.

Don't be conned! If you want a pedigree puppy get a registered one, if you want a cross breed, get one from rescue.

Link http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/6839-breeding-non-kc-registered-bitch.html


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> All KC Reg dogs from good reputable Breeders are sold as pets first and foremost,any dog can have a pedigree,it doesn't mean they are purebred.
> 
> By breeding from a Non KC Registered Dog,you can't trace it's history,or possibly know what health conditions hereditary or otherwise are within those lines.
> 
> ...


I agree with Sallyanne on this I would NEVER allow an unregistered bitch be brought to my dog as you have no history, the litter of welsh springers that I have here at the moment because of breed health problems we did a 10 generation pedigree it is the only way to TRY and eradicate any future health problems and breeding from stock with no history is not going to help your breed in the future.

It costs the same to feed a puppy bought from kc registered, health tested parents but hopefully will cost a lot less in vets bills and heartache from one with no history.


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm sorry but you can have a hystory of your bitch if she is not registered, I do with my girl, it might be the case the majority of the time it isnt always. I know my girls family my eldest dog (14 years ) is from the same line as her, and BC they havent been a KC breed for that long and many of them are unregistered but have a full hystory and are in good health and are top quality healthy friendly dogs


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

vixenelite said:


> I'm sorry but you can have a hystory of your bitch if she is not registered, I do with my girl, it might be the case the majority of the time it isnt always. I know my girls family my eldest dog (14 years ) is from the same line as her, and BC they havent been a KC breed for that long and many of them are unregistered but have a full hystory and are in good health and are top quality healthy friendly dogs


 i must say,,,i have brought puppies without KC papers before,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe im just lucky,,but they were healthy dogs all there lives,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

vixenelite said:


> I'm sorry but you can have a hystory of your bitch if she is not registered, I do with my girl, it might be the case the majority of the time it isnt always. I know my girls family my eldest dog (14 years ) is from the same line as her, and BC they havent been a KC breed for that long and many of them are unregistered but have a full hystory and are in good health and are top quality healthy friendly dogs


Of course you can but how do you know it's accurate,how do you know nothing else has gone into the bloodlines,what about health testing,as there are again health issues within the BC Breed.


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

same here, I have never had any problems and the health isnt just good luck for all these years and many non KC dogs later


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> Of course you can but how do you know it's accurate,how do you know nothing else has gone into the bloodlines,what about health testing,as there are again health issues within the BC Breed.


because her breeder used to be my uncle by marriage and have known him all my life, thats how, he loves his animal, cares for them and they work his farm, 3 pups from him and no health problems at all, my 14 year old has only ever been to the vets for his jabs not bad going for a so called badly bread non KC dog. He has been breeding them well before they became KC registered and knows what hes doing.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

I gotta agree a KC dog don't guarantee a healthy dog!


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

Allthough i do agree with sallyanne ,i wouldnt dream of breeding my KC bitch/dog with any non KC dog! I was asked a while ago to stud my Bully out and i wouldnt! Cause i am saving his 8yr old sperm up for july


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

garryd said:


> I gotta agree a KC dog don't guarantee a healthy dog!


Of course it doesn't but you can trace all the ancestors back,
Problems don't always show themselves,dogs can be carriers and then the trouble starts when two carriers are mated and produce affected dogs,like we have seen in staffords recently.

I always tend to think there are reasons for Breeders not registering litters,these litters are usually non health tested,with little thought or research gone into producing such a litter.

I could have bred my bitch,not registered the litter and made up a pedigree,Hows anyone going to know any different,
Yes I have seen this happen and dogs are put down on the ped as bitches and vice versa.


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

there is not always a reason as my previous posts points out, he just feels that he doesnt need the KC approval for his dogs, doesnt mean he takes any less care of his animals or their well being

and I dont feel the need to have to call her a working sheep dog either just because she is not KC, not that its a bad thing but why should i have to just because a few people at the top in the KC with god complexes say I should,


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

just to add, I'm refering to pet/working dogs, I understand the need for a KC registered dog if you are going to be showing him/her


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

Everyone seems to be under a false illusion that the KC sets breed standards etc...
They don't,It's Breeders & Breed Clubs that do this.

I was speaking in general about non kc litters.Classic Example was this thread,
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/6741-has-anybody-recently-bought-cs-preston.html


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

you did say that you allways think there is a reason they are not registered, 
the KC do say that non registered BC are to be called WSD


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> Everyone seems to be under a false illusion that the KC sets breed standards etc...
> They don't,It's Breeders & Breed Clubs that do this.
> 
> I was speaking in general about non kc litters.Classic Example was this thread,
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/6741-has-anybody-recently-bought-cs-preston.html


but you cant just make a sweeping statement about all non KC bread dogs as it includes those who are not the way you believe them to be, thats all i'm trying to saying, its my opinion one that i stand by and can back up


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

I have non Kennel Club registered dogs and Kennel Club registered dogs, I can trace all the ancestors back on my non KC registered dogs from 30 years ago as the breed as I know them today were just starting out.
All my non KC registered dogs (apart from the ones I bred myself) were brought from highly reputable breeders, who I trust implicitly.
How do breeds that are not currently KC reg move forward if people believe that they shouldn't be bred from?

I agree that there is not always a sinister reason why people do not register their puppies with the Kennel Club, it could be many one of many reasons why people don't do so. I know a woman that breeds St Bernards, been with the breed for over 20 years that refused to register her last litter of puppies as she came to the conclusion (one which we are all aware of) that the KC cares bugger all for dogs and are just after all a business. 

Yet, she isn't a bad breeder, don't breed a great deal, all her dogs are health tested (Hips, elbows and eyes) and all of them are KC registered just that she refuses to register puppies now after a fall out with the Kennel Club and now basically she's sick of lining the Kennel Clubs pockets, her last litter was 2006 and has no further plans to what I know of producing anymore litters and if she did the offspring wouldn't be KC reg it don't mean she does not care for the dogs, or love them any less or is mass producing puppies (which she isn't) just means she's decided to go down her own route of what she believes is best for her own dogs and their offspring.


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

well said nici totally agree


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2008)

Nicci said:


> I have non Kennel Club registered dogs and Kennel Club registered dogs, I can trace all the ancestors back on my non KC registered dogs from 30 years ago as the breed as I know them today were just starting out.
> All my non KC registered dogs (apart from the ones I bred myself) were brought from highly reputable breeders, who I trust implicitly.
> How do breeds that are not currently KC reg move forward if people believe that they shouldn't be bred from?
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what your saying but this is the exception rather than the rule,most non KC Reg dog,don't have anything with them at all,no pedigree,no vaccination,worrming card etc....
Of course there are awful KC Breeders too,this is why you should always do your homework and research.


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

I agree with all Vixie says, border collies were not registered with the kennel club until the 70's, my sport is dominated by BC/wsd I have never found the ones on the breed register (Border Collies) to be better than the ones on the activity register (WSD), either in work ethic, look or health.


----------



## nevenoah (Mar 15, 2008)

hi everyone i see there are a lot of posts and i caused quite a stir, i apologise for this but i would like to say that just because a dog is not kc registered doesnt mean it isnt a pedigree and should be treated any different than a kc registered dog. I also want to to say that my dachshund bitch was vet checked and wormed and had all her jabs when we got her and i dont think the breeder would have went to that exspense to sell me a crossbreed, she is a happy healthy little puppy who we treat as a member of her family and if i were to breed her later on in her life it would be purely for my family members and myself , not for to sell and if my family members could not take care of them then i would definately take them back and care for them myself. I thank everyone for there advice xxxxx Nic


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

I don't only think that only KC registered bitches should be bred from, I think only bitches that have been independantly evaluated as a good example of their breed (which usually means showing) and/or excel in a particular discipline and/or have exceptional working ability should be bred from, regardless of how many in the litter are intended as pets. 

The reason is this. A Golden Retriever should look like a Golden Retriever, a rough collie should look like a rough collie. If people breed willy nilly from their pet dogs that they see through rose tinted glasses, our dogs won't look like the breed they are supposed to any more. I sadly see it all too often in my breed, which is one of the most exploited in the UK.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

jackson said:


> I don't only think that only KC registered bitches should be bred from, I think only bitches that have been independantly evaluated as a good example of their breed (which usually means showing) and/or excel in a particular discipline and/or have exceptional working ability should be bred from, regardless of how many in the litter are intended as pets.
> 
> The reason is this. A Golden Retriever should look like a Golden Retriever, a rough collie should look like a rough collie. If people breed willy nilly from their pet dogs that they see through rose tinted glasses, our dogs won't look like the breed they are supposed to any more. I sadly see it all too often in my breed, which is one of the most exploited in the UK.


what is your breed Jackson?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

i would just like to say this. i was going to buy a podle from wales and i was told by the breeder that it would be kc reg. but then it was implied the place could be a puppy farm.now can puppy farms kc reg their pups?


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

JANICE199 said:


> i would just like to say this. i was going to buy a podle from wales and i was told by the breeder that it would be kc reg. but then it was implied the place could be a puppy farm.now can puppy farms kc reg their pups?


The simple answer to that one is Yes we have tried to get the KC to stop registering them but to no avail it would be too much lost revenue, living in Wales it is so hard as we all get tarred with the same brush, where was the place you were going to get your pup from? pm me if you like as we do have some lovely poodle breeders in this area


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

tashi said:


> what is your breed Jackson?


Sorry!  Golden Retrievers.

Janice, sadly, although I believe dogs should be KC registered if they are to be bred from, KC reg does not mean the breeder or dogs are any good.

To find a good pup, you should look at KC reg. that the parents are health checked along with whatever the relevant breed club reccomends, why the breeder is breeding , (simply for the pet marrket isn't usually a good reason) how and where the pups will be raised etc....


----------



## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Do ya know what I dont get - why do people want to breed I'm not trying to be facetious or wholier than thou but for me the responsibility of litters would be just to big a burden to carry. The thought of loosing my bitch through a pregnancy/labour just because I wanted a puppy would break my heart. I am referring here to pet breeders - I understand bettering the breed standard/showing lines etc but if you want a pet why not buy one?? If I ever bred I would be responsible for those pups for the rest of their lives and would sell with a contract that they would have to come back to me -- and if I sold them with a contract that said it then I'd mean it - how many people can take dog after dog back when it doesnt work out. Do pet breeders think of this aspect of breeding. Its ok saying my family want one each - this is in no way a slur on the Op, maybe in your case its true - but usually they back out - or you get the wrong sex pups and they dont want to know.
Its just too big a thing for me - obviously I'm in the minority here cos thats why the rescues are bulging with dogs that people thought they'd find homes for, it doesnt work out and bang - dog out!!!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Do ya know what I dont get - why do people want to breed I'm not trying to be facetious or wholier than thou but for me the responsibility of litters would be just to big a burden to carry. The thought of loosing my bitch through a pregnancy/labour just because I wanted a puppy would break my heart. I am referring here to pet breeders - I understand bettering the breed standard/showing lines etc but if you want a pet why not buy one?? If I ever bred I would be responsible for those pups for the rest of their lives and would sell with a contract that they would have to come back to me -- and if I sold them with a contract that said it then I'd mean it - how many people can take dog after dog back when it doesnt work out. Do pet breeders think of this aspect of breeding. Its ok saying my family want one each - this is in no way a slur on the Op, maybe in your case its true - but usually they back out - or you get the wrong sex pups and they dont want to know.
> Its just too big a thing for me - obviously I'm in the minority here cos thats why the rescues are bulging with dogs that people thought they'd find homes for, it doesnt work out and bang - dog out!!!


i think some people, like myself see their pets as part of the family.And when we choose to breed from them ( i might add i've never breed any animal) its like extending your family.As for your remark "do pet breeders think of this aspect of breeding". how many men walk out on their kids and marriages.
i might add i agree with a lot of what you say,but not all breeders or want to be breeders are in it for money.


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> i think some people, like myself see their pets as part of the family.And when we choose to breed from them ( i might add i've never breed any animal) its like extending your family.As for your remark "do pet breeders think of this aspect of breeding". how many men walk out on their kids and marriages.
> i might add i agree with a lot of what you say,but not all breeders or want to be breeders are in it for money.


If people see their pets as part of their family (I know I do!) then why not go back to their dog's breeder to buy a sibling or relative? What could be nicer than having two sisters or brothers and no risk to the dog at home you already love so much?

Anyone who has bred a litter properly will know that it is no way to make money, especially if you have to do what I did and take a ferry ride and then drive a 600 mile round trip to collect a puppy you bred when someone can no longer keep it.

The truth is, most 'pet breeders' do not think things through properly. THEY want a new puppy, THEY want to breed, so they dont' see why they shouldn't. Very few pets breeders bother to health test their 'stock', yet claim to love them dearly. If you love them so much, why not safeguard the future health of the pups you breed?

The othe rthing is, most pet breeders don't have enough knowledge themselves to help out new owners if they run into problems.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jo P said:


> Do ya know what I dont get - why do people want to breed I'm not trying to be facetious or wholier than thou but for me the responsibility of litters would be just to big a burden to carry. The thought of loosing my bitch through a pregnancy/labour just because I wanted a puppy would break my heart. I am referring here to pet breeders - I understand bettering the breed standard/showing lines etc but if you want a pet why not buy one?? If I ever bred I would be responsible for those pups for the rest of their lives and would sell with a contract that they would have to come back to me -- and if I sold them with a contract that said it then I'd mean it - how many people can take dog after dog back when it doesnt work out. Do pet breeders think of this aspect of breeding. Its ok saying my family want one each - this is in no way a slur on the Op, maybe in your case its true - but usually they back out - or you get the wrong sex pups and they dont want to know.
> Its just too big a thing for me - obviously I'm in the minority here cos thats why the rescues are bulging with dogs that people thought they'd find homes for, it doesnt work out and bang - dog out!!!


As you know Jo, we have two litters here at the moment BUT I dont actually DO puppies love them now that they are getting around and are a bit of fun but hate the whelping and the first couple of weeks!!! The springer pups were only as the breeder of the bitch had lost her precious lines after 40 yrs and the only way to keep them was to have a pup from Seren - plus we had bookings for others - saying that I have not let 2 people have puppies cos basically I didnt like them  and the goldens are because we keep OUR line going and if we had left her any later then we would have been breeding when we deem them too old for a first litter and they were all booked some have been waiting 2 years for a pup off us and we already have about 6 people waiting for the next bitch!!!! All ours go with a contract and are returned to us if anything happens which in this world is inevitable - marriage breakups, job changes etc. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who do not have the same values in their animals and offspring as we do and THAT is why the rescue kennels are overloaded.


----------



## Guest (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> i think some people, like myself see their pets as part of the family.And when we choose to breed from them ( i might add i've never breed any animal) its like extending your family.As for your remark "do pet breeders think of this aspect of breeding". how many men walk out on their kids and marriages.
> i might add i agree with a lot of what you say,but not all breeders or want to be breeders are in it for money.


Totally different,
I understand what your saying Jo,I really wish some of these pet breeders would experience problems because breeding isn't plain sailing.
We have some neighbours opposite who have two un reg bitches,when Meg went down with pyo they were having them spayed,but guess what the temptation is to big and they are breeding,they have mentioned several times they want to use a white dog,they have dropped hints about using Tyler,not a chance,these bitches are not even a good example of the breed not tested,not reg,what's the point in breeding,why risk it,because of money thats why!!!


----------



## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

nevenoah said:


> hi was thinking about breeding my dachshund bitch in her second season, she is not kc registered but is a pedigree. I only want to breed her as i have 4 sisters and a mother who all want pups, obviously i will have to do a lot of reading up on it and look for for a stud as she is only four and a half month old, but just wondered what peoples views were on non kc mating.


4 and a half months old!?
her second season will be what a year old ish..?

wayyy to young to breed, wait until she's atleast 2 and a half.
although i wouldn't breed a non kc reg bitch anyway.


----------



## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

My pets are my family too As such I wouldnt put them through any unnecessary risks.

As for comparing them to blokes walking out on kids - I totally dont get the connection - dogs are a different species and we are the guardians of our pets and their offspring - full stop


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jo P said:


> My pets are my family too As such I wouldnt put them through any unnecessary risks.
> 
> As for comparing them to blokes walking out on kids - I totally dont get the connection - dogs are a different species and we are the guardians of our pets and their offspring - full stop


i think if you read both posts you might see what i meant.perhaps i'm not so good at putting my point across in writing.


----------



## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick with the written word


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lol too true. glad it didn't get into a falling out.


----------



## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Jackson has hit the nail right on the head without causing upset - I totally agree with how you have worded your post and what you are trying to get across - I have to say that people who just breed for the hell of it with no health tests etc really get my goat!
Health testing should always be done before going any further


----------



## nevenoah (Mar 15, 2008)

hi all after much thought i decided not to breed my non kc registered dachshund bitch at all and will be getting her spayed very shortly, i now realise i love her too much and for something to go wrong would be so terrible for our whole family and the fact that i know nothing about breeding think i will leave it to the experts, we are however thinking about getting another dachshund towards the end of the year who will be kc registered but this will also be a pet and not to be bred from thanks for all the info guys you really opened my eyes (i love this site) thanks xxxxx Nic


----------



## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

I am really happy - you are a very responsible dog owner who obviously cares too deeply to go into something like breeding with little knowledge - good luck with the search for a nice KC reg Dach - they are sweeties....


----------



## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Good on ya - you sound like a really loving owner - hope you find a little friend for your Dachsy


----------



## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Although being KC registered doesn't mean much these days, I still wouldn't do it. Here's an interesting link, perhaps it will be of use to you..and anyone else for that matter.

So you want to be a breeder?


----------



## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

nevenoah said:


> hi all after much thought i decided not to breed my non kc registered dachshund bitch at all and will be getting her spayed very shortly, i now realise i love her too much and for something to go wrong would be so terrible for our whole family and the fact that i know nothing about breeding think i will leave it to the experts, we are however thinking about getting another dachshund towards the end of the year who will be kc registered but this will also be a pet and not to be bred from thanks for all the info guys you really opened my eyes (i love this site) thanks xxxxx Nic


Opps, I didn't realise there was a second page to this thread. I think you've made the right decision. Enjoy your little girl as a pet  and best of luck for getting a future one!


----------



## Alannah Maria (Jan 8, 2021)

We are breeding our non kc rg bitch she is 2 and i believe that is perfectly fine, if she wants to breed her non kc for her family that is fine, not all kc reg are the same, our bitch comes from a really good pedigree and we still breed her.

Also if someone dosent want to show there dog or work it dosent mean they cant have one!


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

This thread is 13 years old and no longer active.
@Allanah Maria I suggest you start a new thread.


----------

