# Is it a good idea to breed her?



## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

Mischief is planning on being fixed.. well she isnt, i am! haha.. but she and her siblings are all so unique. The vet is astounded by all three that i have, myyrah is a dilute calico tabby and diago a medium brown tabby.. both colours the vet had never seen before and loved.. mischief is the more bland one.. she is grey tabby but as each day goes by she is getting mroe and more orange/ brown hairs in small patches in her coat which the vet also noticed as interesting. They are of unknown origin (mom was black barn cat and dad...??) and thus are just DSH (mischief) and DMH (diago and myyrah) breeding i guess. Because they are not a special breed i am not sure and dont know if they would be as sensible to breed as a purebreed would be.. but the colouring! i really want to bring more into the world. thoughts??


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

this was 2 weeks ago, myyrah mischief and diago left to right


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## BshLover84 (May 6, 2012)

so they are just moggies? um.... nope..


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

Is a moggie a cat that doesnt have a breed line? because in my town cat breeding isnt big, im pretty sure there isnt a pure bred cat breeder. But their colour is so unique.. a few people plus the vet and all the vet assistants (lol) notice and remark on it. every time i go to the vet someone working there takes a kitten to show other people bc of the colour haha. i have the only kittens of the litter accept 2 that i know are being fixed and i just think it will be such a shame to loose this pretty blood line


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Since you don'tknow her breeding you have no idea if a chance mating (which is what it would be) would produce the same colour kittens or not. You would also be exposing her to the small risks of pregnancy and kittening. And whilst there may not be a pedigree breeder near your area, I bet there are more than enough cats and kittens that need homes...


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

DreamRaiderr said:


> myyrah is a dilute calico tabby and diago a medium brown tabby.. both colours the vet had never seen before and loved


Must not see many cats then  Calico/Tortie tabbies are not uncommon and brown tabbies are one of the most common moggie colours.


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

They are very pretty kittens and I see why you would want to breed the colours. The problem is that from an unknown mating you have no idea what created the colour in the first place. It would be difficult to predict what colour to mate with to get offspring that colour, unless you mated them to each other which would be seriously bad idea as they would be completely inbred and risk awful health problems. In my breed grey is a dilute form of black, so to get a grey kitten you would need to breed to another grey or a cat carrying grey or you would end up with black kittens.

The other really high risk of breeding a moggie is that you don't know if you are mating them to their father or sibling - again huge heath risk on top of the risks you face if you don't mate with a health tested cat. If there are so few cats in your town that the colours are rare (your kittens are pretty but not unique in the UK at least) it is likely that the cat population you do have are inbred. 

It may be that your kittens are the result of close inbreeding and unless you know who their parents are it really isn't safe to risk a mating I think. 

I don't know if your area has a problem with a high number of unwanted cats, but if you breed them not knowing the genetics you are risking a litter of black or normal tabbies that might be very hard to find homes for. You clearly love your cats and they are gorgeous, but please don't risk their health by breeding them, as the liklehood of getting the same colours from their offspring is very low and breeding is full of risks and hard on both the cat and the human.


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

In a simple answer........ no.
We don't need any more un-wanted kittens and un-experienced breeders in this world. 
The coat patterns you described are not rare, and most could eb found in a rescue. Get them both neutered ASAP.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Them colours arnt rare..the vet has not seen them colours  how long has he been a vet? very common here anyhow.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_they are very pretty kittens, and if i was you, i would neuter them and enjoy them as pets, breeding is very very hard work, you really must know what you are doing, ask any breeder on here, about the sad times, when you can lose a queen or kittens, sometimes both, about the money involved , if things go wrong, wow it cost a small fortune, and it takes breeders many years to try to get the colours they desire, sometimes they never get them, and they have far more chance as they know their cats historys,and that of the studs which they have chosen with care,think very hard about it, and hopefully do the right thing. _


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

BshLover84 said:


> so they are *just* moggies? um.... nope..


Tbh, I am a bit insulted by your wording. There are good reasons as to why it isn't a good idea to breed a moggie, e.g. we don't know their genetic background and they could be carrying a potential genetic defect, but certainly not because they're "just" moggies. A cat is a cat and just because you pay more for a breed cat that doesn't make it any better than a moggy.


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## BshLover84 (May 6, 2012)

heartofclass said:


> tbh, i am a bit insulted by your wording. There are good reasons as to why it isn't a good idea to breed a moggie, e.g. We don't know their genetic background and they could be carrying a potential genetic defect, but certainly not because they're "just" moggies. A cat is a cat and just because you pay more for a breed cat that doesn't make it any better than a moggy.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I wouldn't breed from her as you don't know her genetics, I'm not sure about moggies but a lot of breeds need to be blood tested for compatibility with the stud as they have A and B blood groups...not all do though and some breeds such as the Siamese and Orientals are only Blood group A, if the wrong blood groups mate then the kittens will be still born or die within 3 days.

Also moggies tend to go out and wander, they carry lots of illnesses such as calcivirus, herpes virus, worms etc, that's not saying yours or any one elses moggy in particular are carrying anything but statistics show that every cat in 3 carry a virus, not just moggies I know, pedigree cats carry things too. But when you don't know their background I would say it is best to spay her.

In this country there are thousands of moggies in rescue centres all in need of homes, I don't know what it is like in your country?

I'm guessing cats there are few and far between if your vet has never seen those colours as here they are quite a common colour.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

BshLover84 said:


>


What's that supposed to mean?


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## BshLover84 (May 6, 2012)

sharonbee said:


> I wouldn't breed from her as you don't know her genetics, I'm not sure about moggies but a lot of breeds need to be blood tested for compatibility with the stud as they have A and B blood groups...not all do though and some breeds such as the Siamese and Orientals are only Blood group A, if the wrong blood groups mate then the kittens will be still born or die within 3 days.
> 
> Also moggies tend to go out and wander, they carry lots of illnesses such as calcivirus, herpes virus, worms etc, that's not saying yours or any one elses moggy in particular are carrying anything but statistics show that every cat in 3 carry a virus, not just moggies I know, pedigree cats carry things too. But when you don't know their background I would say it is best to spay her.
> 
> ...


Very true about moggies


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

You do realize that pedigree cats were bred from moggies, right?

And also, while we're at the topic... I personally don't approve breeding moggies for various reasons, but I will never understand the "there's so many unwanted cats at the shelter" argument. Yes, there are, but what about pedigree cats? As far as I'm aware, there are a ton of those in UK shelters too. So it's not that there's too many homeless moggies, there's too many _cats_, of all shapes, sizes and breeds. If that's the reason why moggies shouldn't be bred - than what makes pedigrees any different, in that sense? (this is aimed at no one in specific, just a general question that pops into my head whenever I see this argument)


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

You're right there are pedigree rescue centres but obviously much less pedigrees in rescues or strays than moggies, it is when moggies are not neutered/spayed where the problems start, there are so many strays turned ferral too.

One unspayed female cat can be responsible for 10,924 kittens over 6 years? This is if all her offspring are not neutered or spayed.

Pedigree cats can actually be controlled, as a Breeder I have 3 Queens and they will have one litter each per year and will be spayed at the age of 4 years old. 

If pedigrees are not bred it would wipe out some very beautiful breeds, they would become extinct, but controlled breeding can stop that from happening. Moggies I imagine will never be extinct due to the amount of strays and ferrals.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

You do have a point, but apparently pedigree breeding is still not controlled enough - if it were, there wouldn't be any pedigree strays/moggies! 

But then again, we can't know for sure how many of those "pedigree" cats in rescues are actually pedigree. Many might actually come from irresponsible BYBs. 

In my opinion, while the situation is at is it - that is, there's simply TOO many cats being bred - any breeding should be controlled. The only problem - I can't think of a good system for this to actually work rather than it just being said in theory...


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

i think the only way to control breeding is if breeders had their kittens neutered before going to new homes. many breeders already do this but sadly my vet prefers to neuter at 6 months old. im sure there must be other ways but cant think of any at the moment.


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

Thankyou for the imput everyone. I live in a town of 75 000 and brought the cats across to USA for their vet work to another similar sized town. The vet is the highest ranked vet of both my side of the border and that one in our twin cities. The photo doesnt do diago justice, the vet said that the SHADE of brown was uncommon. The grey wasnt particularly special and Myyrah has calico feet and calico tabby legs and dilute calico tabby on her back which i guess is uncommon too. Maybe the difference in countries? iunno. also there isnt much of a kitten problem here.. there is one shelter here and it has like 15 cats in it.. 75 000 ppl in the city leaves that at an OK ratio. Ppl tend not to buuy shelter animals cuz all of them have kennel cough, ticks/ fleas/ mites, worms and some have something else where the cage sais they cant be touched or let out (some long name that i didnt write down but will if i go again) .. Thankyou to everyone who thought they are pretty.. i just loove them! I think my main feelin is that i am sad they are growing up and dont want to make the wrong choice and stop me from ever getting another in their family (for certain at least) .. however i understand it is irresponicible and have booked Misty's spay for october. It still buggs me thou.. also a BIG thanks to those who stood up for my kittens as they are just as good as any other cat (in theory) and not any less because of their breeding. xx


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

excuse me for being a little dim here but you posted the shelter has problems with fleas/ticks/mites etc, why are these animals suffering like this when all the rescue has to do is apply frontline or similar treatment. just what does donations go on if the animals are in this state.:confused1:


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

They are a TON of dogs.. vet fees are very expensive in canada and so is pet food.. their money goes to food mostly.. we also have to pay for the water and the Power etc (as im sure u do too lol) so they would have that too. cheap food is at least 30 dollars for a big bag for dogs.. which wont last a big dog long.. min wage is only 10.25 so you see how bad it is. Vet fees are pretty high too rabies shot is 90 dollars.. fixing is 300-500 as far as i have heard.. hence why i go to the USA. they fix their animals so they prob have a lot of expense there too. Plus they are over crowded with dogs which makes it tough to get rid of things as far as i know.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> i think the only way to control breeding is if breeders had their kittens neutered before going to new homes. many breeders already do this but sadly my vet prefers to neuter at 6 months old. im sure there must be other ways but cant think of any at the moment.


Hopefully the vets will catch up there soon, early spay/neutering has been done here and in the US for decades. 
Most breeders early desex at 10-12 weeks before the kittens go to their new homes.
Love knowing none of mine will ever be bred from, accidentally or otherwise. Especially as they call from 4 months, that could be several heat cycles for owners to deal with before getting done at 6 months.


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## broccoli (Jul 1, 2011)

DreamRaiderr said:


> . there is one shelter here and it has like 15 cats in it.. ....a BIG thanks to those who stood up for my kittens as they are just as good as any other cat (in theory) and not any less because of their breeding. xx


i have moggies, only ever had moggies - i adore them :001_wub:.

and yours are v v pretty:001_tt1:

15 in a shelter ( lucky compared to here..but..) - any litter you have is taking potential homes from the 15
fleas & flu can be sorted. let them have the homes they need, rather than take up that space unnecessarily.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I find it really hard to believe a town that size only has 15 unwanted cats & kittens.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

There will be alot of unwanted cats where you live you more than likely just don't see them or people aren't turning them in to shelters as ferals are pretty hard to catch and usually nocturnal - your living costs are about the same if not a bit cheaper than the UK so unlikely to make much difference to wether there will be more dogs than cats!
They are very pretty kittens but not unusual colours at all, and if you did breed them you could end up with a whole litter of black kittens if one parent is black as you often get throwbacks so no guarentees I'm afraid! 
The fact they are moggies makes no difference at all - a pedigree cat is one that has been inbred to some extent, with the lines recorded, to fix colours and type so you are more likely to get certain colours when you breed them together - but it is still a cat at the end of the day!! I have 17 moggies and I love them all, some of them are unusual colours but I would never have bred from any of them!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I do find it funny how you describe your torties colours - she isn't dilute (dilute would be grey and cream) not black - she is slightly fainter on her back because she is long haired but she isn't dilute - That's not the way genes work - she can't be dominant AND dilute. SO her legs can't be black and her back grey genetically.

She could be burmese pointed - darker legs and tail and face and slightly lighter on the back - doesn't make her dilute - your other cat (the grey) is dilute.

IF you decided to breed her I'm afraid the colours you would get are unlikely to be uncommon as those gene tend to be recessive and most moggies don't carry them.

Rescues in Ontario (I realise it's a big area BUT there are lots of cats out there looking for homes)

Cats Anonymous: Welcome to Cats Anonymous - 60 cats available for adoption
Forgotten Ones Cat Rescue & Adoption - 75 cats for adoption
A.R.F. Ontario - no numbers given only the 10 cats of the week starred
Pet Patrol: Cat Adoption and Rescue - no numbers given
Cat Adoption and Cat Rescue --- Markham, Ontario

there were more. . . . . I got bored looking


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

As a breeder I don't honestly feel I could tell somebody else not to breed - but I do mean breed rather than just having random kittens for the sake of it. So, if you believe you have a unique trait there what is your long term aim? How do you intend to achieve it? What stud would you use to reproduce those traits you find attractive? Where would you go for the next generation? What is your most useful registration organisation for you to record your progress? Do you believe you could persuade other breeders to join your breeding programme so your unique new breed could be recognised one day?

Or did you think you could just let this cat roam unspayed and it would all happen by magic?


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

Spid, ontario is a big place. 4 times bigger than the UK lol, so i am sure there are thousands of shelters. 

Also other than the stripes on her head she doesnt have black on her. She is greyish brown and dark brown on her feet and the same on her back but faded. Hence the calico part. The vet is the one who said she is dilute but i dont really care either way. Her legs are the same color as her body, accept her front right and back left feet (bottoms only).


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

And i do not allow my cats to roam. That is careless. My cats are inside only. I know of someone with a brown and black tabby who is not 'mature' yet but will be willing to stud before they fix. (which may be silly bc ive heard they sometimes still spray once fixed if they wait but anyways) As for programmes and organizations, not nessesary. I only want one litter, and then would fix her. I want two more kittens for sure, as i have had that many for a couple months.. one i was babysitting left now, and the other one leaves soon. They add joy to our household. 
As for the rest, the owner of myyrah wants 2 cats, and said she would take 1. A family friend also was interested. In anycase, i would find numberous homes before i breed and keep what i cant rehome. I would not ever send an animal to the shelter, Id never forgive myself.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

DreamRaiderr said:


> I know of someone with a brown and black tabby who is not 'mature' yet but will be willing to stud before they fix.


You'll need to test your cat and the male for everything since you don't know what genes you're dealing with.

FIV, FelV, HCM scan, blood typing, PKD, PK-Def, PRA...the list goes on. At $40-$60 per test and HCM costing several hundred dollar it's a very expensive 'just one litter' far better off fostering for a shelter or adopting 2 other kittens.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Am still at the point of being stunned a vet almost encourages indiscriminate breeding with their 'rare colours' drivel. Rare colours my arse .....

But it's summer and PF is always full of threads about people wanting to breed their moggies because kittens are so cute and their moggies are so unusual or the Oops but really secretly planned litters ...... Reminds me why most reputable breeders can't take this forum seriously.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I only want one litter,


Yet early on in this thread you said -


> i have the only kittens of the litter accept 2 that i know are being fixed and i just think it will be such a shame to loose this pretty blood line


Using terms like 'bloodline' doesn't usually mean 'I fancy having one litter of kittens'. Why will it be OK to lose such a pretty 'bloodline' after one litter if it would be such a shame now?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't think you actually want to know if it is a good idea to breed your cat - I think you have already made up your mind and want advice about how to get that to happen etc. SO I am going to answer your thread on that basis.

If you mate her to a brown tabby - you will get brown tabbies and blacks. It is highly unlikely that the brown tabby will carry the dilute colours your cats are. You need a chocolate gene from both parents (from your description it is possible your girl is a chocolate tortie - not a blue (dilute) tortie, and your boy is a chocolate tabby - but another photo would help) or a dilute gene from both parents to be choc or blue. YOu could also have red boys (but not red girls as they need two genes too).

Does the owner of the boy realise that her boy might spray indoors once he's mature enough to sire kittens? He might not stop once neutered either. Your girl might also spray and though not as smelly, it too may not stop once neutered. How old is he now? How old is your girl? Has your girl had a call yet? It's not wise to make her keep calling.

I (like Havoc) won't lecture you about breeding - BUT . . . you need to go into it with your eyes wide open. *You are incredibly unlikely to get the colours you are after*. You really should test for at least FIV and FeLV in both stud and queen, and possibly any DNA tests that are available as well. Make sure you have the money for a late night emergency C-section (about £600-£1000 in the UK) just in case, it happens. Work out the costs of raising a litter of kittens to at least 9 weeks (food,litter, toys etc). You need to blood type the cats in case they are incompatible (in which case the kittens will probably die) at least if you know you will need to hand-rear for the first 24 hours.

Also you can't let your girl have season after season (these happen every 3 weeks for a week until pregnant or neutered) as it is very dangerous. The womb lining isn't shed and can become infected with a life threatening condition - pyometra. She will also lose condition and be very uncomfortable with each call. She may scream her head off calling for a male 24 hours a day for 7 days and then spray in an attempt to attract one. ANd three weeks later it will start again. They tend to louder on each successive call. She needs to be about 1 year old before you breed her so she is out of kitten-hood herself. You need to ffed her high quality food to maintain her condition. YOu need to learn to help her give birth. You may need to hand rear - do you have the ability to take time off work (if you work) to feed kittens every 2 hours 24 hours a day for the first 2 weeks?

If you can do all of that (and the rest I have forgotten) and have owners lined up that don't mind that you won't produce the colours of your cats - then you are at least in a sensible position to do it. You have already decided to anyway.

But the main point is - you are incredibly UNLIKELY to produce those colours again. Genetics just don't work like that. You want those colours again find a stud that either is chocolate or lilac or carries chocolate and dilute and even then it is still a gene lottery..


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## DreamRaiderr (Aug 28, 2012)

I hadnt decided already, I was learning towards it but you are right about adopting before bringing more into the world. The money time etc could be figured out but the 'other kitten' part gets to me. I will prob adopt from the shelter (after mine are fixed and etc). Oh and i only feed high quality food  , wellness cans and i know dry is bad but if i give them a little wellness kitten dry food to munch in the day. I was thinking about feeding semi raw homemade as per http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood and a little futher research. But i will look into peoples opinions on that on an apropriate thread.


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