# Madeleine McCann



## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

So apparently the latest theory is that burglars took her?? What the hell? Makes no sense to me that one. Burglars steal property not kids surely? They could have killed her to shut her up but why she was 3 years old? Not old enough to give a description.
My own personal theory is that she was stolen to order and probably is no longer with us.
I know that her parents and the so-called Tapas 9 were beyond stupid and arrogant leaving the kids but my God what a price they have paid.
Poor little girl.
What does everyone else think?


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I think: Why has this suddenly come to light years later?? Seems really odd to me.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Marycat said:


> So apparently the latest theory is that burglars took her?? What the hell? Makes no sense to me that one. Burglars steal property not kids surely? They could have killed her to shut her up but why she was 3 years old? Not old enough to give a description.
> My own personal theory is that she was stolen to order and probably is no longer with us.
> I know that her parents and the so-called Tapas 9 were beyond stupid and arrogant leaving the kids but my God what a price they have paid.
> Poor little girl.
> * What does everyone else think?*


I think the dead should be left to rest in peace.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I am truly at a loss with this one! I feel she is dead. Very sad that one moment will haunt them for the rest of their lives.


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## BenBoy (Aug 31, 2013)

My little sister is the same age as Madeleine, when it all happened the thought of someone taking Rachel was just gut wrenching and I am not even the mother. I cant imagine the pain and guilt they feel. 

Rachel is ten now and who knows maybe Madeleine is still alive and living with a family somewhere in the world none the wiser.

I don't think the mystery will ever be solved, its been too long.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I can't imagine anything worse than not knowing where your loved one is. If a cat doesn't come home its mental torment. I can't begin to imagine the torture the parents of missing kids go though. At least if you have a body you can start the grieving process..
I really hope the police crack this one although it doesn't look hopeful


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I can't imagine anything worse than not knowing where your loved one is. If a cat doesn't come home its mental torment. I can't begin to imagine the torture the parents of missing kids go though. At least if you have a body you can start the grieving process..
> I really hope the police crack this one although it doesn't look hopeful


I hope one day the police do crack this case. It has happened before when the police solve crimes even decades later so we still have hope that one day we will have closure.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I feel very sorry for Madeleine's parents it was such a tragedy, I hope one day the case is cracked and they either get Madeleine back or get something so they can lay their beautiful daughter to rest and have a place to mourn.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

There have been a few stories over the last few years of young girls / women being found years after they were abducted. Whilst the tales they have to tell of what they went through are totally horrific, they must still give hope to the McCanns that one day they may see their beautiful girl again.

Did they kill her??

Don't be so daft!!!!! They wouldn't keep pushing the story into the headlines, and reminding people of her, if they had!!!  They'd keep their mouths shut and hope that people would eventually forget. They wouldn't keep putting themselves up for constant scrutiny. Common sense tells you that.

You just gotta love how folks in this country are so quick to believe the worst of people!!!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> There have been a few stories over the last few years of young girls / women being found years after they were abducted. Whilst the tales they have to tell of what they went through are totally horrific, they must still give hope to the McCanns that one day they may see their beautiful girl again.
> 
> Did they kill her??
> 
> ...


Totally agree; we seemed to become a nation of newly qualified criminal psychologists, all this 'Kate McCann made such and such a facial expression, she must have killed her daughter', 'Gerry McCann went back to work, what an evil killer'.

Please, anyone sensible could see they were (and still are) parents going through absolute agonising hell.

I don't know why but a part of me believes she's still alive. Whether that means that the case will reach a conclusion, who knows. I still hope she's out there, I think that's all we can give her.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

This man, the father, has been reported as a FreeMason...They are very VERY much protected..if anyone thinks these two people are completely innocent than they are very wrong...hence the reason why again they are trying to vindicate them..its all a big lie.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Kyria said:


> This man, the father, has been reported as a FreeMason...They are very VERY much protected..if anyone thinks these two people are completely innocent than they are very wrong...hence the reason why again they are trying to vindicate them..its all a big lie.


I'd laugh if that wasn't such a sad attitude to have.

As far as I remember, with the Shannon Matthews, April Jones, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman cases all the nation cared about was that those little girls were found. We all had huge huge sympathy for the parents, but for some reason there is this disgusting attitude towards the McCanns.

They've already been through the worst thing any parent could possibly imagine. What the hell do they need protecting from? They've already had their hearts ripped out.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I'd laugh if that wasn't such a sad attitude to have.
> 
> As far as I remember, with the Shannon Matthews, April Jones, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman cases all the nation cared about was that those little girls were found. We all had huge huge sympathy for the parents, but for some reason there is this disgusting attitude towards the McCanns.
> 
> They've already been through the worst thing any parent could possibly imagine. What the hell do they need protecting from? They've already had their hearts ripped out.


Carry on sleeping.....


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## Cruella De Vil (Sep 25, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> There have been a few stories over the last few years of young girls / women being found years after they were abducted. Whilst the tales they have to tell of what they went through are totally horrific, they must still give hope to the McCanns that one day they may see their beautiful girl again.
> 
> Did they kill her??
> 
> ...


They'd have to keep pushing it thought surely? It would look very suspicious if the parent of a missing child were quite happy for her to be forgotten

Its a very odd case though. Things don't add up. No trace of either the child or an intruder. No evidence of anyone being there. Nobody's seen hide nor hair of her since. No DNA, forensic evidence, nothing, its as if she literally vanished into thin air.

I hope she is alive somewhere and happy, maybe being bought up by someone in the back of beyond in some far away country, but looking at the other similar cases of the past few years, its sadly much more likely she's dead, and probably has been from within about an hour of going missing.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I see only now the areas mobile phone records are being checked, the local police at the time didnt do it......say no more

also, this must be a compelling case for a pan-european DNA database, firstly of anyone arrested for any offence and also volunteer donors, the cold case clear up rate would rocket, begger any "human rights" issues....

an abucted person could at anytime popup anywhere and be identified in minutes


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Kyria said:


> This man, the father, has been reported as a FreeMason...They are very VERY much protected..if anyone thinks these two people are completely innocent than they are very wrong...hence the reason why again they are trying to vindicate them..its all a big lie.


Ridiculous.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I believe she is still alive.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Cruella De Vil said:


> They'd have to keep pushing it thought surely? It would look very suspicious if the parent of a missing child were quite happy for her to be forgotten
> 
> Its a very odd case though. Things don't add up. No trace of either the child or an intruder. No evidence of anyone being there. Nobody's seen hide nor hair of her since. No DNA, forensic evidence, nothing, its as if she literally vanished into thin air.
> 
> I hope she is alive somewhere and happy, maybe being bought up by someone in the back of beyond in some far away country, but looking at the other similar cases of the past few years, its sadly much more likely she's dead, and probably has been from within about an hour of going missing.


The investigation was fooked up by the Portugese police from the start.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Too little to late. I think the Portuguese authority's didn't like the fact they had left their children alone in favour of socialising, so didn't put too much effort into finding Madeline. I find it difficult to comprehend why you would think it's ok to leave your children alone, sleeping or not, especially in a foreign country. Had they not been doctors I don't think the press would have been so kind to them. It's bad parenting in my opinion. I believe she is alive and the family had been getting watched before she was taken.


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## Cruella De Vil (Sep 25, 2013)

munchkinpie said:


> Too little to late. I think the Portuguese authority's didn't like the fact they had left their children alone in favour of socialising, so didn't put too much effort into finding Madeline. I find it difficult to comprehend why you would think it's ok to leave your children alone, sleeping or not, especially in a foreign country. Had they not been doctors I don't think the press would have been so kind to them. It's bad parenting in my opinion. I believe she is alive and the family had been getting watched before she was taken.


They said someone from the group went and checked on them every 10 minutes. Really? Because to have a person one after the other keep jumping up and down, disappearing every few minutes whilst your trying to have dinner and a conversation would be so annoying and disruptive, they may as well have stayed in the apartment! Also, how accurate would it be? I've done the 'I'll check every 10 minutes' thing on different things( not kids!) and it usually ends up like, check the first time, maybe the second, then you get distracted, or get stuck into someone and kinda forget, or get talking, and suddenly whoops, 20 minutes have passed, then half and hour, then 45 minutes, and then you suddenly remember and rush to check on it praying it hasn't gone wrong, not sure how you'll explain if it has, and usually its actually fine, and you breathe a sigh of relief whilst thinking how lucky you got away with it, but just now and then it does go wrong......


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## something ridiculous (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm sure I will get slated for this but.....

I think her parents know exactly what happened to her. I'm not saying they murdered her, maybe some sort of accident happened and they tried to cover it up. It has been in my mind the whole time when they left their other kids to go back over there. I know if they were my kids they would not have left my sight for a very long time if she had been kidnapped, even with family.


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

no one really knows what happened that dreadful night and its sad to know that she may not be alive , its going to be on the next edition of crime watch


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

something ridiculous said:


> I'm sure I will get slated for this but.....
> 
> I think her parents know exactly what happened to her. I'm not saying they murdered her, maybe some sort of accident happened and they tried to cover it up. It has been in my mind the whole time when they left their other kids to go back over there. I know if they were my kids they would not have left my sight for a very long time if she had been kidnapped, even with family.


Not slating but just want to point out....

So instead you would take two infants to a foreign country , distraught in yourself, in the middle of a major police incident, when all you can think about is getting your child back- how does that work out for those infants? Haven't they seen enough crying as well as asking where their sister is? Is it not better they are surrounded by familiarity with their relatives in a country whose first language is their mother tongue and some kind of routine at home without having to be whisked around to various police stations/ news appeals??

Crazy.

Naive to leave their kids sleeping, yes.

It disgusts me that people stir up horrible stories about these parents based on what they would and wouldn't have done themselves- well god forbid anyone learns a lesson on this.

Sorry but unsavoury as it is criminals exist, international pedophile rings exist.

But please, sit back and point the finger.

I hope no-one here is so wickedly judged by others.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

I would be very surprised if she did turn up alive. I think that her parents are involved somehow. I also think if it had been a single mum or benefits parents they would have been slated - why is what they did better since they are Dr's? You wouldn't leave kids like that alone when at home so why on earth would you do it in a foreign country? beggars belief!

It's all very odd and the only ones I feel sorry for are Madeline and the twins. 

As for the book, there are things in there i could barely think about my daughter, let alone put down on paper.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

I forgot- just because someone can compose themselves in the face of enormous tragedy (i believe they are devoutly religious) doesn't make them suspicious or evil


We have come to expect a world of Jeremy Kyle tantrums and tears over all kinds of issues-thankfully not everyone acts that way, particularly many old school British- maybe for some grief is private.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

WelshOneEmma said:


> I would be very surprised if she did turn up alive. I think that her parents are involved somehow. I also think if it had been a single mum or benefits parents they would have been slated - why is what they did better since they are Dr's? You wouldn't leave kids like that alone when at home so why on earth would you do it in a foreign country? beggars belief!
> 
> It's all very odd and the only ones I feel sorry for are Madeline and the twins.
> 
> As for the book, there are things in there i could barely think about my daughter, let alone put down on paper.


Reverse snobbery at its best. They were slated, they were accused. Did you read the papers at the time or for like a year after??

So if the media slated them more they would be innocent in your eyes?


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Reverse snobbery at its best. They were slated, they were accused. Did you read the papers at the time or for like a year after??
> 
> So if the media slated them more they would be innocent in your eyes?


Of course I did. I also remember when April Jones went missing a lot of people slated the parents for letting her play out front, unsupervised at that time of night.

Leaving the kids wasn't naive, it was down right stupid.

When the mother of Scarlett, who was killed in India, returned home she was investigated by social services and nearly lost her other child. Again, she did something incredibly stupid but her daughter was a lot older.

They would never be innocent in my eyes. Directly or indirectly, they are partly responsible by leaving their children unattended.

If you don't want your kids spoiling your nights out on holiday-dont take them!


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

I hope you don't get called for Jury duty any time soon


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Julesky said:


> I hope you don't get called for Jury duty any time soon


I could say the same about you.

I am voicing an opinion, same as you. We are both entitled to these but guess maybe you think only if its the same as yours?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

WelshOneEmma said:


> I could say the same about you.
> 
> I am voicing an opinion, same as you. We are both entitled to these but guess maybe you think only if its the same as yours?


Of course not- but your opinion is, 'they would never be innocent in my eyes'

I'm just suggesting in all of my posts that as a member of the public I don't do trial by media, i cannot decide who is innocent or guilty.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

But it sickens me all this vitriol.

INNOCENT until proven guilty in the country i grew up in.

I think everyone here should appreciate that how horrible it must be to be accused of any crime they didnt commit let alone one so heart-wrenching.

It's understandable that it's such an impassioned case, especially to parents.

BUT we don't know, we only read papers etc. People are out there working on it.

I just dislike statements of people suggesting others are guilty when they don't walk in the other people's shoes.



ETA- off out to catch birds to show children at the local country park - will be back later to answer any posts- not ignoring them!


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Of course not- but your opinion is, 'they would never be innocent in my eyes'
> 
> I'm just suggesting in all of my posts that as a member of the public I don't do trial by media, i cannot decide who is innocent or guilty.


Ok, maybe i worded that bit slightly wrong.

They were incredibly stupid for leaving the children and for that they should take some responsibility here. Yes, they could have been watched etc, but they partly 'allowed' for it to happen by leaving them alone. They were doing that the whole holiday, so if someone was watching them they already made it easier for Maddie to be snatched.

Part of the reason people are so against them is that they take no responsibility here and will not admit they were wrong for leaving them.

Do you honestly think that if it had been young parents/single mum etc who did this there wouldn't have been a SS investigation when they got home??

And for the record I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. They have a lot going against them, but as you put it, we only know what the media picks up and reports.

I guess what I meant was they are not innocent to me in that they made it so much easier for her to be taken.

and let's not get into the cadaver dogs and refusing to answer certain questions......


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

we had 5 kids (via divorce/custody/creation) and never left them alone, we never left any behind so we could go on holiday and when away either they came with us or we didnt party...then again we arent middle class professionals but we never had a child abducted either

the case of Ben Needham gets far less exposure but of course mum wasnt a GP.....


BTW, dont forget, in some countries its GUILTY till proven innocent


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

the problem with this case is, the McCanns used the media to find their daughter which is an amazing resource, but the media is sneaky and spiteful and feed on sadness and fear, 

The media is to blame for the doubt so many of us have, did the mcCanns make a mistake that night, actually YES your child is the most precious thing ever, more precious than a meal. and worth the money you would pay the hotel staff to babysit. as i said earlier, this is a mistake they will pay for, for the rest of their lives, not to mention the torture they do to themselves thinking of what happened to her and the look of fear on Madeline's face . no the public don't need to jump on this band wagon......


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## something ridiculous (Mar 9, 2013)

Julesky said:


> Not slating but just want to point out....
> 
> So instead you would take two infants to a foreign country , distraught in yourself, in the middle of a major police incident, when all you can think about is getting your child back- how does that work out for those infants? Haven't they seen enough crying as well as asking where their sister is? Is it not better they are surrounded by familiarity with their relatives in a country whose first language is their mother tongue and some kind of routine at home without having to be whisked around to various police stations/ news appeals??
> 
> ...


You say that but are wickedly judging me for my opinion. Nobody here knows what happened and my opinion is no less valid than yours.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

All I will say is that my heart goes out to the little girl, Madeline.

I have absolutely no sympathy for her irresponsible parents. Okay they made a mistake, that cost their child's life one way or another. Their fault, their blame, their guilt for leaving their children home alone. It was a risk they chose to take when there was a babysitting service available. 

Lets face it, other parents have had their children taken into care. I think it comes under "not being able to adequately protect their children from harm". Yet they are allowed to keep the twins in their care. :nonod:


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I can never understand why so much publicity is spent on this case when thousands of children go missing each year.

It feel sympathy for the child and her family - but there was a case near me where a teenage schoolboy went missing. He was last seen in London on CCTV. 

He never gets publicity on the national news, but then he is older and not so photogenic as Maddie.


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

I feel really strongly that the McCanns are getting "special" treatment regarding the way the police and all are working on this case.
What I mean is that there are unfortunately other cases of missing children who do not get the vast amount of money thrown at finding their children. Why is their daughter different from these children? Don't they all deserve our help? Is it because the McCanns are professionals and articulate? 
I also think that they are responsible in part for what happened because they decided that having a meal was more important than being responsible parents. As others have already mentioned, they should have been investigate by SS services when back in the UK. 
Rules applies to everybody,no exceptions in my book.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I have no sympathy for the McCanns and feel they were treated too leniently. However, I feel that dragging this up over and over again does nothing beneficial just gives the conspiracy theorists more to drool over. I mean freemasons, what next reptilian aliens 

There is virtually no chance she will ever be found, the few cases when children have been brought home years later have been almost by chance. By this point it could be ripping a child out of the only home she remembers where she's happy to live with strangers.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I have no sympathy for the McCanns and feel they were treated too leniently. However, I feel that dragging this up over and over again does nothing beneficial just gives the conspiracy theorists more to drool over. *I mean freemasons, what next reptilian aliens*
> 
> There is virtually no chance she will ever be found, the few cases when children have been brought home years later have been almost by chance. By this point it could be ripping a child out of the only home she remembers where she's happy to live with strangers.


You mean you don't know?? they are reptilian aliens, god thought everyone knew that!


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm still convinced they killed her, not on purpose, but I'm sure they drugged her to keep her asleep and it killed her. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and she'll turn up safe and sound somewhere next week. But that's what I believe.

If someone wanted to kidnap a child to keep or sell on, generally they would have gone with the younger ones as they re less likely to ask questions and be harder to identify later on in life. So to me, it wasn't kidnap. I have no sympathy for the McCann's whatever has happened to her, you just don't leave kids of that age on their own, no matter how close you are to them.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Ridiculous.


You need to wake up and see what goes on in this world of ours....You think that my opinion is ridiculous, thats up to you, but alot of people do agree that there is something not right with the McCanns.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Kyria said:


> You need to wake up and see what goes on in this world of ours....You think that my opinion is ridiculous, thats up to you, but alot of people do agree that there is something not right with the McCanns.


I have no liking or sympathy for the Parents. They behaved like fools...had no reason to behave that way as they are highly educated professionals but all this "they killed the child" .....theories are just so silly to me. Something would have cropped up by now other than speculation.

They dont deserve sympathy for acting irresponsibly but...end of day...they have to live with that act of irresponsibility for the rest of their lives...enough is enough already.

I think some people watch too many movies and get carried away with murder and mishap theories.

Time to accept that little girl was taken...unlikely alive but if she is...let us pray she isnt suffering at the hands of some weidos.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Kyria said:


> You need to wake up and see what goes on in this world of ours....You think that my opinion is ridiculous, thats up to you, but alot of people do agree that there is something not right with the McCanns.


What? What is it that's 'not right' about them exactly?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Kyria said:


> This man, the father, has been reported as a FreeMason...They are very VERY much protected..if anyone thinks these two people are completely innocent than they are very wrong...hence the reason why again they are trying to vindicate them..its all a big lie.


So he's a freemason? So what? So is my husband - doesn't mean he would kill a child and get his friends to cover up for him. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to manufacture a conspiracy theory now, I feel.



Colliebarmy said:


> BTW, dont forget, in some countries its GUILTY till proven innocent


But not in this country - although you may be forgiven for believing the opposite when you see how many people have already decided that her parents are as guilty as hell (and without a shred of evidence other than their own opinion!)


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

bearcub said:


> What? What is it that's 'not right' about them exactly?


mate, they are Freemasons :wink: so must be evil and full of murderous secrets


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I am always in the hope that Madeleine is safe and living with people who wanted a child to love,I know it's a big hope but hopefully she is alive and not suffering, when I was six months old I was taken from my pram, my sister who was 16 at the time had taken me out, she left me outside of a shop to buy some chocolate, when she came out I wasn't there, she caught sight of a lady carrying me across the shops car-park, she shouted at her and the lady handed me back without a word. I often wonder what would have happened if she hadn't have got me back, but I always think she may have been unable to have a child and wanted to love me as her own. Who knows but it would be nice if Madeleine was taken to be loved and cared for.
I feel sorry for her parents as it was a terrible mistake they made by leaving her and must pay for their mistake for the rest of their lives. What they must be going through every day of their lives must be a constant nightmare. I could never have left my children even just next door especially abroad but her parents did, stupidly, and now they are paying for it and must regret that day at every waking hour.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

bearcub said:


> What? What is it that's 'not right' about them exactly?


Well everyone knows the freemasons are covering up the holy grail and running the whole world :yesnod:. So anyone in them must be evil and here I thought my grandad was a nice old man :huh:. I've clearly been brainwashed though and the only people with open minds are those that buy into whatever the latest crackpot theory is. Had most people even heard of the freemasons or the illumati until the da vinci code? 

Either way the McCanns are responsible for her disappearance and they and those poor twins will live with that for the rest of their lives. But tragedy will always bring the conspiracy theorists in their droves.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> mate, they are Freemasons :wink: so must be evil and full of murderous secrets


Sorry that made me laugh.

Its the myths that surround the freemasons that cause folk to believe there is a lot of cover ups, if you are in the "gang". I joked with my boss who I was aware was in the freemasons, he wanted to stop a mast being erected near his home and seemed to be fighting a losing battle with the Council. I said you ought to join that funny hand sake club. He absolutely fell about laughing.

Whether the parents had some involvement or not their decision was wreckless. I have read on here previously some people do think it is okay to leave their children home alone in a hotel and no harm has come to them.

If you leave valuables on display in a car and they are still there by morning it doesn't mean there is no risk just means you were lucky.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

something ridiculous said:


> You say that but are wickedly judging me for my opinion. Nobody here knows what happened and my opinion is no less valid than yours.


Where did i wickedly judge you?

And where did i say your opinion wasn't valid.

First part of post was directed at you

Second part was my opinion on people pointing fingers.

The 'my opinion is valid' is an excellent way to keep a thread going round in circles- it's called debate, we all have valid opinions, because they are our opinions.

In my opinion the abject horror of losing a child is nothing I could imagine and I think it's wicked to judge them as being guilty or innocent based on conjecture and dribs and drabs of stories from a bodged police case and the ever so reliable and never sensationalist media...

Having no sympathy for the decision they made is different to outrightly accusing them of murdering their child.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

By that i mean how many of us Judged that land lord in the murdered woman in Bristol- utterly framed by the police and the press, stories abounded on the internet and in the papers- poor guy.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't think Madeleine's parents are guilty of murdering her. I do think they are guilty of middle class arrogance and crass stupidity but I don't think they are murderers. If there is a lesson to be learnt it is that if you have kids your responsibility to their welfare and safety comes first not your need to socialize with your friends. I think my mum and Dad probably had 2 nights out a year when we were little. 
The Portuguese police could not have made more of an arse of the investigation if they tried but I think their judgement would have been clouded from the outset from what they would have seen has bad parenting, ergo must be bad parents who are guilty. I don't think the McCann's are bad people just guilty of poor judgment.
It reminds me a lot of little Ben Needham. What the hell happened to that poor kid. How the hell can people just vanish into thin air and nobody ever talks? Someone somewhere knows..


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## something ridiculous (Mar 9, 2013)

Julesky said:


> Having no sympathy for the decision they made is different to outrightly accusing them of murdering their child.


And where has anyone accused them of murder?!?


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

I've no sympathy for the parents. They put their selfish desire to socialize before the needs of their 3 very young kids.

I do hope Maddy is safe somewhere but I doubt it


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2013)

Kyria said:


> This man, the father, has been reported as a FreeMason...They are very VERY much protected..if anyone thinks these two people are completely innocent than they are very wrong...hence the reason why again they are trying to vindicate them..its all a big lie.


Massive conspiracy theory dreamed up by the likes of David Icke and his ilk, all completely off their rockers.

I have no opinion either way, do I think the McCanns were negligent and irresponsible? Yes I do.

Whatever may of happened, no one can deny, they are not suffering now due to their actions.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

something ridiculous said:


> And where has anyone accused them of murder?!?


It has been inferred on many previous threads on the topic and on this one (can't be bothered going back over, just in from dog walk and got food on the hob!- but drugged, something going wrong and cadaver dogs spring to mind and if not murder then certainly it's been inferred they assisted in her disappearance more than just with their gross error of leaving them unattended)-

that's just a statement, again my whole post wasn't directed at you- more an opinion.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

I feel some of you are making this personal towards me now with the comments I have made and trying to belittle me with certain remarks about FreeMasons etc., just because I dont agree with you and your views on the McCanns...well if this is the way its going I have no further wish to comment on this thread and put my opinions across.


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## Cruella De Vil (Sep 25, 2013)

Julesky said:


> It has been inferred on many previous threads on the topic and on this one (can't be bothered going back over, just in from dog walk and got food on the hob!- but drugged, something going wrong and cadaver dogs spring to mind and if not murder then certainly it's been inferred they assisted in her disappearance more than just with their gross error of leaving them unattended)-
> 
> that's just a statement, again my whole post wasn't directed at you- more an opinion.


Something must have started those thoughts though, there's no smoke without fire....


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## something ridiculous (Mar 9, 2013)

Julesky said:


> It has been inferred on many previous threads on the topic and on this one (can't be bothered going back over, just in from dog walk and got food on the hob!- but drugged, something going wrong and cadaver dogs spring to mind and if not murder then certainly it's been inferred they assisted in her disappearance more than just with their gross error of leaving them unattended)-
> 
> that's just a statement, again my whole post wasn't directed at you- more an opinion.


Them knowing what happened is different from point blank murder. I believe it was manslaughter, nobody has said murder on this thread.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Can you imagine if she is found alive, I actually won't know what to do. Please let that poor child be found.

Crazy story in the papers about someone apparently seeing Madeleine alive a few weeks ago. Why the hell wait till ur back in the UK to tell someone WTF


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

I also have a sinking feeling that she is dead.....but then at the same time if they was my little girl, i wouldnt/couldnt rest until i knew. Finding a body would put an end to everything.

Obviously finding her alive would be best, but finding her either way would be an end.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Kyria said:


> I feel some of you are making this personal towards me now with the comments I have made and trying to belittle me with certain remarks about FreeMasons etc., just because I dont agree with you and your views on the McCanns...well if this is the way its going I have no further wish to comment on this thread and put my opinions across.


 You are entitled to your opinion hon. Take no notice x


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

People say it would be best if Maddy is found.. but best for who? 

Not sure if it's best for Maddy. She will now be 9/10, probably won't remember her parents or speak English. She may have been hurt. Or have been part of a different culture.

If she is found she's going to need a hell of a lot of therapy.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Kyria said:


> I feel some of you are making this personal towards me now with the comments I have made and trying to belittle me with certain remarks about FreeMasons etc., just because I dont agree with you and your views on the McCanns...well if this is the way its going I have no further wish to comment on this thread and put my opinions across.





Marycat said:


> You are entitled to your opinion hon. Take no notice x


You are indeed entitled to your opinion. But I am equally entitled to defend my husband and his freemason friends against your opinion without you playing the "making it personal" card. I didn't answer as I did just because you don't agree with me, but to show you that freemasons are ordinary people and that your wild theories about them sticking together to defend the McCanns are just that - wild theories. I'm not trying to belittle you either - just telling it how it is.

If you don't want anyone to disagree with your opinions then you shouldn't post them on a public forum.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I remember my dad telling me that about a year after she went missing, a local attention seeker/sad person reported to the police that they'd seen Madeline in our local Tesco Express , but they said they'd seen her about 5 months previously... so obviously with it being the kind of case it is, the police HAVE to take it seriously and my dad said him and his colleagues spent more than 3 weeks watching back months and months worth of footage, because the person said they couldn't remember exactly when it was, not even to the proper month. So, not only was a HELL of a lot of police time, money and resources wasted... if that person really thinks they did see her, why didn't they speak up at the time?! Why wait so long?!

They also had someone else saying they'd seen her on a train going to Blackpool, but couldn't remember when or what time, so they then had to check the CCTV of EVERY train on the Blackpool line.

I just hope she is found one day, either way. And I hope we can find out what really happened to the poor girl


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Kyria said:


> I feel some of you are making this personal towards me now with the comments I have made and trying to belittle me with certain remarks about FreeMasons etc., just because I dont agree with you and your views on the McCanns...well if this is the way its going I have no further wish to comment on this thread and put my opinions across.


You can believe whatever you want to believe but it just so happens that others can have views on those beliefs too.

I genuinely don't see how giving Maddy back to two people that would now be complete strangers would be a good idea. Hopefully if they find her she's with a good family and at what 10 years old her feelings on the matter would be taken into account.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I genuinely don't see how giving Maddy back to two people that would now be complete strangers would be a good idea. Hopefully if they find her she's with a good family and at what 10 years old her feelings on the matter would be taken into account.


If she were mine, I'd want her back whether she was ten or fourty, tho I can see it would be years of regret and fresh grief for yrs lost.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Cruella De Vil said:


> Something must have started those thoughts though, there's no smoke without fire....


See above re: the landlord in the Bristol murder case, see any number of false rape allegation cases or famous cases of people convicted of crimes they did n't commit. Sometimes there is.



something ridiculous said:


> Them knowing what happened is different from point blank murder. I believe it was manslaughter, nobody has said murder on this thread.


That would be why i used the word 'inferred'


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> If she were mine, I'd want her back whether she was ten or fourty, tho I can see it would be years of regret and fresh grief for yrs lost.


I can understand that but say they find her living a happy life with a completely different family. Should she then be ripped away from the only parents she remembers and put back with the McCanns? I can imagine that would be pretty upsetting for her.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I can understand that but say they find her living a happy life with a completely different family. Should she then be ripped away from the only parents she remembers and put back with the McCanns? I can imagine that would be pretty upsetting for her.


yea its a lose lose situation sadly, cos if I was her mum id need her back and if I were maddy and found out what happened and lost even more time and truth I would be hurt so its awful scenarios.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> But not in this country


it didnt happen here though did it


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

Madeleine has a very distinctive eye, if i looked into the eye of maddie i would remember for sure!! its a long time for no one to see that eye. 

I know where im going with this post but i cant think of the words  
just another thing that leads me to think the poor girl is no longer alive.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Distinctive, but not unique.

My boss has the exact same thing in her eye, and she had been in post for a good couple of months before a colleague asked me if I had noticed she has the same eye as Maddie - and to be honest I hadn't.

It was only when asked that I actually noticed.

Now I've seen seen it, I notice it every time I talk to her (which is really awkward because now I feel like I am staring at her eye :blush: )

But I can see how it _could_ go unnoticed unless you were actually looking for it.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

hummm, that bangs out my theory then.... 

i can imagine that been a rather akward thing to notice every time, but at least your looking into her eyes!! lol


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm intrigued as to what this new piece of "evidence" is. Hopefully the mystery will be solved soon.

Madeleine McCann Inquiry 'Making Progress'


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Sadly i'm not sure the Crimewatch appeal will make much difference :nonod: But I will be watching it. They are expecting arrests to come out of this appeal. Please god if anything significant does happen DON'T tell the media.

All I hope for is she didn't have to suffer for long, the idea of her being kept captive for this long ( Is a possibility) is just sickening


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2013)

Thought I would bump this up being as a reconstruction is being aired on Crimewatch this week, the decision to do the reconstruction has been met with scepticism, especially by a Retired Police Superintendent who has written to the BBC with this to say.



> email
> 
> 7th October 2013
> 
> ...


Thoughts?


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Excuse my ignorance but why isn't the reconstruction taking place where Madeleine went missing ? Also how can they have a reconstruction of an 'abduction' with no one having seen anything ??

Also why isn't this reconstruction isn't being aired in Portugal ?

I really hope somehow some answers come out of this crimewatch appeal, but I just cannot see it happening 

Also these 2 men being shown tomorrow night, will random holiday makers really remember seeing them over 6 years ago

*• The only fingerprints on the window found by police being those of Dr Kate McCann, strongly suggesting that she opened the window in order to promote the abduction scenario.*
Re the above statement, the possible abductor would surely have worn gloves ! so there wouldn't be any fingerprints.

Hate all this anti McCann stuff


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I just wish the money they are spending on this, was put into the abuse of children here and now. Then things like Baby P and the others like him wouldn't happen again.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think that little girl deserves every effort to find her....whether it be her in the living body or her as in needing to be brought back to be laid to rest by her family (sure, her Parents were dumb asses that night for leaving their kids but nobody can wish what happened to their Daughter on anyone, stupid Parents or not).

The trouble is, all of this malarky is too little, too late to actually have maximum effect imo.

The Portuguese Police effed up badly and I think that it may be too late to try to put right their mistakes now. 

All this should have been done years ago.

Any "reconstruction" of events (that are so sketchy that it really is going to be more like a drama than a reconstruction) should imho be filmed in the actual place Maddie was taken and shown all over the world (definitely all over Europe) MOST ESPECIALLY Portugal, where the little girl went missing. 

I just pray that the little Angel is either at peace or living a half decent life somewhere. The alternative is grim to say the least. If I were her Mother, I am afraid I would probably have cracked and be a complete mess, given what terrible things may have happened to that beautiful little girl


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

This british man that's been arrested, I think he was just telling a lie. As if he would have been introduced to Madeleine !!! * Ok then i'll just wait until i'm back in the UK before doing anything about it* WTF

Some computers have been taken away aswell


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

willa said:


> This british man that's been arrested, I think he was just telling a lie. As if he would have been introduced to Madeleine !!! * Ok then i'll just wait until i'm back in the UK before doing anything about it* WTF
> 
> Some computers have been taken away aswell


That story is only featured in the Mirror so I'd take that with a pinch of salt. I'll be watching Crimewatch. Hopefully we will have a breakthrough soon but I agree why isn't the programme being shown in Portugal? Seems strange to me. Someone somewhere knows what happened to poor little Madeleine. She's the same age as my daughter when she went missing.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I find it all very strange what her parents say happened, i have been to the village many times for holidays, all before she went missing, i have walked the street next to the apt,ate at the place they were when they left her in the appartment, you can see the appt from there, this is a small village where untill this happened the locals left their doors open , the children played in the street,


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## muffin789 (Jan 28, 2013)

All I really want to say us, what about Ben Needham????!!!!! Why hasn't such energy been devoted to finding that poor lad???

am not going to comment on the Maddie situation as I don't feel qualified to do so. Ben is a missing UK kid for who's family there have also been no answers; let us treat them the same.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

why is the crime watch reconstruction showing her been abducted when we don't know for sure she was ?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

muffin789 said:


> All I really want to say us, what about Ben Needham????!!!!! Why hasn't such energy been devoted to finding that poor lad???
> 
> am not going to comment on the Maddie situation as I don't feel qualified to do so. Ben is a missing UK kid for who's family there have also been no answers; let us treat them the same.


Not enough controversy


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I sometimes think if they stopped harping on about it and let the whole thing quieten down they would have more chance of finding her. Surely if someone is holding her and it went quiet they would be lulled into a false sense of security and probably start taking risks and there fore she would be more likely to be found.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

The efit of the wanted man has been released. Two images of the same man looking completely different


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

There's more chance of finding Jack the Ripper...


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

It is awful what happened to little Maddie (what ever that was) but there are 144 missing children which I have never heard of and bet most of us havent either.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

muffin789 said:


> All I really want to say us, what about Ben Needham????!!!!! Why hasn't such energy been devoted to finding that poor lad???


*Single working class mum vs middle class professional couple*


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Will anyone be watching crimewatch tonight ?


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

yes thankyou for reminding me as I had actually forgotten crime watch was on.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

willa said:


> Will anyone be watching crimewatch tonight ?


I wish - I'm at a meeting. If I was I would be ringing up to point out that E-fit looks a lot like Gerry McCann......


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

willa said:


> Will anyone be watching crimewatch tonight ?


I will prob watch it .....but I still think the parents were involved and this is not an abduction case ....thats just always been my gut instinct .........too many queries and questions over things that dont add up .....

All my thoughts are with Maddy wherever she is ...I could not give two hoots about kate and gerry...I know some might think thats harsh  but I cannot help but be angry that as parents they left 3 very young children alone - its unforgivable and at the least neglect ....but they have made millions.....books and all sorts.....just seems a circus - there are many many abducted children - someone mentioned Ben Needham - his parents have acted with the utmost dignity and not had half the attention that Gerry and Kate have ...the whole saga just makes me very very sad - esp for little Maddie who ultimately has suffered because of the stupidity of the parents


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

fierceabby said:


> I wish - I'm at a meeting. If I was I would be ringing up to point out that E-fit looks a lot like Gerry McCann......


OMG yeah it does !!!!:skep::skep:


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

I've said before Suzy, I hope one day Maddie turns up, marches up to Kate - wallop, and then turns to Gerry - wallop. 
A five finger salute across their smug little faces, and her never wishing to clap eyes on - let alone speak to them ever, followed by an injunction and criminal charges - and long sentences for the pair of them based on her testimony.... Neglect, perverting the course of justice etc


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Well I don't think her parents are involved .... but everyone has their own opinions. 
I will be watching it purely out of interest, I doubt anything much will come out of it. The Crimewatch Update at 10.45pm will be very interesting, just really hope *IF* they do get new significant info it's not made public.

Apparently this e-fit man was seen carrying a small blonde girl in pink pyjamas down to the marina ??

Also think maybe they should show a new picture of what Madeleine may look like now, rather than continuing to show her age 3 ?


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

willa said:


> Well I don't think her parents are involved .... but everyone has their own opinions.
> I will be watching it purely out of interest, I doubt anything much will come out of it. The Crimewatch Update at 10.45pm will be very interesting, just really hope *IF* they do get new significant info it's not made public.
> 
> Also think maybe they should show a new picture of what Madeleine may look like now, rather than continuing to show her age 3 ?


They did show an artists impression of how she may look a couple of years ago but the picture showed her as pretty well kept with her hair just so, they should also make a drawing of her looking poor and a little scruffy because if she is alive and treated badly that would be more how she would look rather than the first artists impression looking posh and pretty.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

fierceabby said:


> I've said before Suzy, I hope one day Maddie turns up, marches up to Kate - wallop, and then turns to Gerry - wallop.
> A five finger salute across their smug little faces, and her never wishing to clap eyes on - let alone speak to them ever, followed by an injunction and criminal charges - and long sentences for the pair of them based on her testimony.... Neglect, perverting the course of justice etc


Exactly hun! IMO they certainly should have had criminal charges bought against them neglect etc ..... the whole thing just stinks !! - and if they do find her what will the ramifications be on Maddy ??? the adjustment the upheaval if she has been living another life with people she believes are her parents ?? then finding out her own parents left her alone whilst "socialising and dining" ?? its just a sorry sorry mess - and really will there be any winners ??? and all of that is assuming she was bought to order and lived a NICE and HAPPY life ! the other just does not bear thinking about but equally she will be marred scarred and a very confused girl  no winners really!!!!



willa said:


> Well I don't think her parents are involved .... but everyone has their own opinions.
> I will be watching it purely out of interest, I doubt anything much will come out of it. The Crimewatch Update at 10.45pm will be very interesting, just really hope *IF* they do get new significant info it's not made public.
> 
> Apparently this e-fit man was seen carrying a small blonde girl in pyjamas down to the marina ??
> ...


Of course hun  I dont begrudge anyone their opinion  xx I agree a picture of her now would be a good idea


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Have a feeling very sadly it will be one of those life's unsolved mysteries. Will take an absolute miracle to find out what happened to her. Just amazed whoever was involved has been able to keep it a secret for all these years, including possible friends and people who know them !!

Also I *NEVER* usually watch Crimewatch because it *really* scares me, lol


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2013)

I'm confused now. I just read that a family saw a guy (who the efit pic is based off) running away with a child that night, am I correct here? Why has it taken 6/7 years for this to come to light? I don't understand.


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## BenBoy (Aug 31, 2013)

la468 said:


> I'm confused now. I just read that a family saw a guy (who the efit pic is based off) running away with a child that night, am I correct here? Why has it taken 6/7 years for this to come to light? I don't understand.


I am just watching the news about this, I thought the same!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

willa said:


> Will anyone be watching crimewatch tonight ?





sharonbee said:


> yes thankyou for reminding me as I had actually forgotten crime watch was on.


I'm taping it, what to see how they are spending are money.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

la468 said:


> I'm confused now. I just read that a family saw a guy (who the efit pic is based off) running away with a child that night, am I correct here? Why has it taken 6/7 years for this to come to light? I don't understand.


Yeah this is correct, *Apparently* they did tell the Portuguese Police, but they never did anything about it !!!. Can u just imagine if this is the man, just imagine. omg


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Will definitely be watching Crimewatch. Just hope it has some positive effect on finding poor Maddie.

I think her parents have paid for their "crimes" (neglect) with the loss of their little girl. That will haunt them forever more. I think they should have faced interrogation by Social Services, if nothing other than a warning to other Parents to act more responsibly but sadly that didn't happen. I really don't buy into the parents killed her accidentally and disposed of the body theories. 

All my sympathy is with little Madeleine.


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## BenBoy (Aug 31, 2013)

Its probably been said on this thread already but I really don't know what possessed them to leave their children in a foreign country alone


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Whilst I feel sorry for poor Maddie, I must confess I struggle to scrounge up any sympathy for her parents - they were the ones who elected to leave the children alone that night.

Had they done the responsible parental thing and either stayed in with the children OR chosen to pay for the babysitting service, chances are that whatever did happen wouldn't have happened.

Yes, holidays are for enjoying yourself, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore your responsiblity as a parent, even for one night. And I can't shake the feeling that if they had been working class froma sinkhole estate, the headlines would have read 'Girl missing after parents drug kids and leave them alone to go out partying with friends' rather than the more sympathetic versions the McCanns received.

I also find it disappointing that the McCanns seem to get all the publicity they could ask for, seemingly at the expense of other missing children. Plus all the fundraising that has gone into their 'find Maddie' charity, which last time I looked had spent very little overall, also offers no support, financial or otherwise, for other parents with missing children.

So I apologise if people are disappointed in me, but I genuinely find it difficult to see them in a very sympathetic light...


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Crimewatch is going to beam an image of Madeleine McCann on to the side of Battersea power station at 8pm., 

Not sure what good it'll do ??


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

la468 said:


> I'm confused now. I just read that a family saw a guy (who the efit pic is based off) running away with a child that night, am I correct here? Why has it taken 6/7 years for this to come to light? I don't understand.


I remember years back someone coming forward to say they saw a man carrying a child down to the marina. That to me isn't new news but why has it taken so long for it to be a really significant piece of evidence. Why didn't they act on this witness coming forward years ago? I'm sure on tonights Crimewatch we will hear more details than they are letting on.

I'm praying Madeleine will be found soon.

Also, those e-fits look nothing like each other so how can it be the same man!


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

They have other e-fits to release aswell.

This man was spotted by 2 members of the same family, nit quite sure how they both gave totally different descriptions !!


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2013)

Iheartcats said:


> I remember years back someone coming forward to say they saw a man carrying a child down to the marina. That to me isn't new news but why has it taken so long for it to be a really significant piece of evidence. Why didn't they act on this witness coming forward years ago? I'm sure on tonights Crimewatch we will hear more details than they are letting on.
> 
> I'm praying Madeleine will be found soon.
> 
> Also, those e-fits look nothing like each other so how can it be the same man!


I agree, they look like two different men.

Also the man in question could have changed in appearance considerably by now.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

willa said:


> They have other e-fits to release aswell.
> 
> This man was spotted by 2 members of the same family, nit quite sure how they both gave totally different descriptions !!


Doesn't surprise me at all - eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, even if it is the same man. My car once had it's wing mirror smashed off by someone trying to outrun the cops (police helicoptor overhead and everything!), had to make a report. It was only when I checked out what I had written with a map prior to writing it out for real I realised I had the location out by a good hundred yards - on a road I drive each day to work! 

And, to be cynical, 'carrying a child' may be wrong as well - a big duffel bag with a coat hung over the side could give that effect in low light, for example.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Kyria said:


> This man, the father, has been reported as a FreeMason...They are very VERY much protected..if anyone thinks these two people are completely innocent than they are very wrong...hence the reason why again they are trying to vindicate them..its all a big lie.


Sadly, I agree with you. To me everything points to their being involved in the loss of their daughter.

They certainly are responsible - because there is no way three tiny children should have been left alone ANYWHERE, but especially in an unfamiliar place.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are more directly responsible - say by giving her something to make her sleep, and then returning to find that she had vomited and choked, or something of that nature. I don't believe that they deliberately killed her, but I think that there is a huge amount that they are not being frank about.

I know that many think the McCanns wouldn't keep hammering on about finding her if they knew what had happened, but to me the best place to hide is in plain sight. They are blinding people by being so 'in-your-face' about it.

I'm afraid that I also get angry when I think of the money and manpower going into this case ad infinitum, when children go missing every day - children that there may be a good chance of finding alive and maybe even unharmed - but they are put onto a back shelf because of this 'high priority' case. That poor child will not be found, but other, equally important children will - because every child is important, not just Madeleine McCann.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> Whilst I feel sorry for poor Maddie, I must confess I struggle to scrounge up any sympathy for her parents - they were the ones who elected to leave the children alone that night.
> 
> Had they done the responsible parental thing and either stayed in with the children OR chosen to pay for the babysitting service, chances are that whatever did happen wouldn't have happened.
> 
> ...


Just what I think - I can't imagine how it must feel to see somebody else's long-gone child still being looked for, when the search for your own, equally beautiful, equally unique baby has been called off.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> I wish - I'm at a meeting. If I was I would be ringing up to point out that E-fit looks a lot like Gerry McCann......


It looks like our postman - of course, he was only 11 at the time.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Her parents can't just sit back and do nothing, they have to keep searching. Good on them for keeping all this going, Surely anyone who has children would do all they could to find their missing child .

I don't know how her parents are managing , really don't

Ok let's not turn this thread into arguments, feels like it's heading that way !


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

willa said:


> Her parents can't just sit back and do nothing, they have to keep searching. Good on them for keeping all this going, Surely anyone who has children would do all they could to find their missing child .
> 
> I don't know how her parents are managing , really don't
> 
> Ok let's not turn this thread into arguments, feels like it's heading that way !


The point being is that there are a lot of children who have disappeared and their parents have nobody to help them find them.
Five millions have been spent so far on the McCanns ' search. What about the other parents? Are their children less important than Madeleine? I dread to think how they must feel watching the news at the moment.
Of course anyone who has children would do all they could to find their missing child but not everyone has David Cameron interverning on their behalf.
In my book, that is morally wrong. 
Finally, this is a debate. I do not think that it is going to turn to arguments.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

SirHiss said:


> Thought I would bump this up being as a reconstruction is being aired on Crimewatch this week, the decision to do the reconstruction has been met with scepticism, especially by a Retired Police Superintendent who has written to the BBC with this to say.
> 
> Thoughts?


Excellent summation of the facts, as opposed to conjecture. There is so much we are being kept in the dark about by the McCanns.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I feel desperately sorry for the McCann family...all of them.

I really can't see if the parents had had anything at all to do with her disappearance that they would still be churning it over and over and keeping it in the public eye if they were guilty.

And, for all children who are missing, we need more funds and more specialist professionals to deal with this sort of thing and it shouldn't be that it gets dropped or put to one side simply because of money.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I have stayed at the same village many times in the past and taken granchildren there , i would never ever have left them alone at night to go anywhere, all the places to eat in the village loved having families in to eat, they moved chairs so people with pushchairs could get around and would also make a great fuss of any children , the people there are great , such a shame what happenened but i feel it is all to do with the parents , something has never felt right about what they say happened,


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Sadly, I agree with you. To me everything points to their being involved in the loss of their daughter.
> 
> They certainly are responsible - because there is no way three tiny children should have been left alone ANYWHERE, but especially in an unfamiliar place.
> 
> ...


that's pretty much my feelings 100% spooky!


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

"where was you last night when we cried " and they still f**king left them :mad5:


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2013)

Pointermum said:


> "where was you last night when we cried " and they still f**king left them :mad5:


I know! I was shocked at that part!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> "where was you last night when we cried " and they still f**king left them :mad5:





la468 said:


> I know! I was shocked at that part!


Disgraceful


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

and half hour checks WTF


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

As CB has said - had they been from a sink estate their feet wouldn't have touched the ground, but because they were 'professionals' and pally with politicians, they get cosseted and kowtowed to, and no-one is allowed to question them to closely. Most parents would have ended up with their other kids being taken into care.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I have always felt they were responsible, I remember reading something about dogs picking up the scent in the rental car? And something about a missing fridge from the apartment? 

The parents just seem so fake in their interviews, poor girl.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wow, it's been over 6 years and so many people haven't dealt with the fact the parent's f***ed up.


How productive and helpful in the search for Madeleine.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Julesky said:


> Wow, it's been over 6 years and so many people haven't dealt with the fact the parent's f***ed up.
> 
> How productive and helpful in the search for Madeleine.


Exactly .... time to focus on the little girl .... bless her. Pointing the finger of blame at the parents constantly seems pointless to me.

Yes, they were grossly neglectful that night but may be time to move on from the conspiracy theories and wanting to hang them out to dry. Their "punishment" is most likely the worst that can be bestowed on any parent. Having a child go missing must be the worst thing imaginable.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

They went out and left her again although they knew she woke up crying with the wee baby...I cannot put into words how I feel about this couple.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

chichi said:


> Exactly .... time to focus on the little girl .... bless her. Pointing the finger of blame at the parents constantly seems pointless to me.
> 
> Yes, they were grossly neglectful that night but may be time to move on from the conspiracy theories and wanting to hang them out to dry. Their "punishment" is most likely the worst that can be bestowed on any parent. Having a child go missing must be the worst thing imaginable.


For me a big part of the problem is that they refuse to accept any wrong doing, consistently change their story, used a large amount of the fund set up for them on other things, sue anyone who dares to disagree and never have any of this questioned by the British media. As was said a few pages back, if they lived in a council house we'd have forgotten about it by now


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

The bottom line is Maddie would still be with her family, if they hadn't choose to leave her alone.. not just once, but on 4 previous nights too.

And they knew Maddie and the baby had woken up the previous night crying and still went out for dinner again 

Even last night they maintain they did nothing wrong


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I have no sympathy for the McCanns and feel they were treated too leniently. However, I feel that dragging this up over and over again does nothing beneficial just gives the conspiracy theorists more to drool over. I mean freemasons, what next reptilian aliens
> 
> There is virtually no chance she will ever be found, the few cases when children have been brought home years later have been almost by chance. By this point it could be ripping a child out of the only home she remembers where she's happy to live with strangers.


I agree I feel something was strange about the McCanns from the start though can't put my finger on it professional people who never even considered using the babysitting service provided rang alarm bells immediatately. They just went out left the child poor maddie was left with no one to protect her in my eyes the 1st priority a parent should have. The McCanns in my eyes should have been proscecuted for child Abandonment/Neglect .... What as Maddie been through as a result of having parents who decided going for a meal was more important than there little girls safety ...makes my blood boil


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Kyria said:


> They went out and left her again although they knew she woke up crying with the wee baby...I cannot put into words how I feel about this couple.


I could help you out with a few words but I'd get banned


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> I could help you out with a few words but I'd get banned


Me too


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Kyria said:


> They went out and left her again although they knew she woke up crying with the wee baby...I cannot put into words how I feel about this couple.


I could help you out with a few words but I'd get banned


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

negative creep said:


> For me a big part of the problem is that they refuse to accept any wrong doing, consistently change their story, used a large amount of the fund set up for them on other things, sue anyone who dares to disagree and never have any of this questioned by the British media. As was said a few pages back, if they lived in a council house we'd have forgotten about it by now


agree 100%

Having watched Crimewatch last night - I have not changed my mind on my initial thoughts of them and the so called abduction .....something still stinks!


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

and what I didn't realize until last night there was a night creche they could have used if they wanted to go out for dinner ... and still choice not to


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

I missed Crimewatch last night so played catch up this morning on iplayer.

There were so many things going through my mind seeing Madeleine's photographs and how happy she looked in them, I've never once doubted the Mccanns. Kate still very emotional, I think anyone would be, how could you forget, or carry on living your life day to day knowing somewhere in the world your little girl is missing? 

Yes, they were in the wrong, how many times have those poor people got to keep being beaten around the head with ''they were to blame'' the finger pointing and blaming them, is not going to find Madeleine, or get anyone any closer to the truth of what happened.

No one can feel as guilty as those poor people do, they live with loosing Madeleine everyday.

Imagine living the life they do, people pointing the finger, saying they were to blame, I do agree they are, I agree they were negligent, I'm sure they don't have to be reminded of it every day, must be awful having to get yourself up everyday and carry on knowing you were both responsible, living in the media glare.

I do feel for them in the sense they need closure.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Maddie was unfortunate to be born to parents with no natural protective instincts we need to think of Maddie and all the other children that are the victims of bad parents and what a price the poor babies have to pay my sympathy and thoughts are with all the children who have been neglected, abused, abandoned, starved and murdered at the hands of parents who should love them x x x x x


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> The bottom line is Maddie would still be with her family, if they hadn't choose to leave her alone.. not just once, but on 4 previous nights too.
> 
> And they knew Maddie and the baby had woken up the previous night crying and still went out for dinner again
> 
> Even last night they maintain they did nothing wrong


Hang on a wee minute:

Madeleine would still be with her family if someone had not committed a crime.

All other children who are victims of crime would not be if people did not commit them.

This is a very VERY sad thing to say- yes their parenting choices were dubious but ultimately if sick, twisted people did not walk the Earth people would could leave their children anywhere without having to be blamed for someone taking them.

What IS wrong with everyone. So 6 years on and you want to see a couple in pieces/on anti-depressants (who's to say they are not) or in a psychiatric ward because they cannot forgive themselves for their mistake.

They have 2 other children and a **** tonne of hope and faith (they are massively religious- fair play, i'm not!).

Where does this stop- victims of crime are victims of crime- if I walk down a really dodgy neighbourhood at night, scantily dressed and am attacked is it my fault??? It would be a poor decision- a VERY poor decision. But the crime would not be mine.

It saddens me that society as a whole cannot accept that ultimately they are just humans, who make mistakes- instead we want to harp on and on about classes, their jobs, what we read in a paper about sniffer dogs- I am fairly certain as with ALL crimes against children (and adults) the nearest and dearest are investigated thoroughly . Glad all the detectives on here won't give up their day jobs.

I sincerely hope to god none of you are victims of crime.

Their child is missing. I sincerely doubt they give a flying what people think by now as they have probably tormented themselves enough- instead they want to focus on raising their other children and hoping their daughter is still alive.

What do you want- snot/tears/mental breakdowns- would that make you happy? There are no winners here.

I do hope they find her one day.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> Did they kill her??
> 
> Don't be so daft!!!!! They wouldn't keep pushing the story into the headlines, and reminding people of her, if they had!!!  They'd keep their mouths shut and hope that people would eventually forget. They wouldn't keep putting themselves up for constant scrutiny. Common sense tells you that.
> 
> You just gotta love how folks in this country are so quick to believe the worst of people!!!


I dunno! There have been many many reports regarding Maddies dissapearence over the years, The fridge, The sleeping tablets, The DNA in the hire car, The visit to the church, How many off these and how many are fiction is anyones guess!
BUT, if they have done anything then they will have to keep up the charade for the rest of their lives as they have (if they are guilty) dug themselves into too deep a hole to EVER be able to let this rest.

And IF they are innocent it is everyones hope that Maddie can be found and us 'doubters' be proved wrong!

BUT, two FACTS, they left 3 children under five in that apartment in a foreign ALONE! anthing could have happened! They were 50 metres away, a child could have choked, Maddie could have drowned, could have smothered one of the babies it doesn't bear thinking if! You DONT under any circumstances leave children of that age alone! AND remember there was a baby sitting service offered! HAD the same happened to a less educated family, say a one parent family then they would have be hauled through the coals!

AND whilst on the subject, There are over 500 young children missing from the UK I challenge ANYONE to name any of them with the exception of Maddie and Ben needham!

Poor ben has got nowhere near the publicity as Maddie got!! Was he NOT that important???

Sad to say, even if the Mccanns didn't dispose of Maddie they ARE responsible for her dissapearence and at the VERY least should have been charged with neglect!

Sorry but that's my view!


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Hang on a wee minute:
> 
> Madeleine would still be with her family if someone had not committed a crime.
> 
> ...


Firstly I have been the victim of crime.. serious crime.

Secondly I was stating facts, they left their kids alone, and yes they've paid for it.. but do you know who else has paid for it... Maddy. Maddy has paid the ultimate price for their selfishness.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Personally I feel if the police dug deep enough into the parents they'd find Maddie one way or another. They don't even blame themselves for leaving their children unattended, if that was me I'd be kicking myself forever!

The part about the dogs detecting stuff is really interesting.
What Really Happened to Madeleine McCann? 60 reasons which suggest that she was not abducted


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

What puzzles me is why did that little girl did not wake up when she was being taken, I am sure it was claimed and admitted to by the parents that they had given her something to make her sleep while they were out
,I have never taken to these 2, the way they acted at the beginning, didn't seem right, but hopefully the doubters will be proved wrong, me included and Maddie will be found
There are so many people who have said there is something not right about this couple, why?something doesn't add up somewhere


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> Firstly I have been the victim of crime.. serious crime.
> 
> Secondly I was stating facts, they left their kids alone, and yes they've paid for it.. but do you know who else has paid for it... Maddy. Maddy has paid the ultimate price for their selfishness.


I am sorry to hear you were a victim of crime.

You actually stated she would still be with her family if they hadn't left her alone.

How can you know that? How can you know whatever happened to her would not have happened even with them in another room of the house?? There are cases (google it) of children being kidnapped from their house whilst parents slept- equally she could have choked etc. with them in the house.

What is wrong with everyone. I agree I would not leave a child of that age unattended.

However they are VICTIMS of crime.

Statements like Madeleine would still be with them if they hadn't left her alone blow my mind. Yes we can control our own actions that MAY lead to a different outcome- how do you control the actions of a criminal with intent?????


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Julesky said:


> I am sorry to hear you were a victim of crime.
> 
> You actually stated she would still be with her family if they hadn't left her alone.
> 
> ...


Because it l looks like the family was been watched.. and who took her took an oppotjnity, that opportunity wouldn't have been there if not left alone. And yes they could have choked, another reason for not leaving young kids unattended


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Hang on a wee minute:
> 
> *Madeleine would still be with her family if someone had not committed a crime*.
> 
> ...


*TWO* crimes was committed that night , the Mccann's leaving their children was the first crime , which left the the door open for the 2nd crime.

They was never charged with the first crime, yes they are paying a price now. But my sympathies will always be with the innocent in all this, poor Madeleine who's paid the price for both crimes.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Sorry i havent read the whole thread, just a few comments. 

I did watch crime watch last night and i am disgusted by them both..infact im disgusted with the lot of them! I dont believe for a second that those kids were checked on as many times as they suggest they did.

Maddie asked her mother why she wasnt there when they started crying the night before..what was their first thought? We will check on then a few extra times tonight  

They did however miss a few points from that reconstruction...they never mentioned them medicating the children so they would sleep while they were out 

Kate's first plea she said 'continue to prey for madaleine, she is lovely'. Wouldnt any normal parent beg for help finding their child? OR ask for people to pray that she was safe and well and would be found? 

Personally i think that after she had asked her mother why they were not there when they woke up they decided to over medicate her. 

No better place to hide than plain sight is there?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> Because it l looks like the family was been watched.. and who took her took an oppotjnity, that opportunity wouldn't have been there if not left alone. And yes they could have choked, another reason for not leaving young kids unattended


I don't have anything more to say- we'll have to agree to disagree.

Pointermum- would you like them to go to jail for leaving their children and have the other 2 taken into care and not be raised by their family?

Are those children not innocent too?

What/who are we to judge?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Kate's first plea she said 'continue to prey for madaleine, she is lovely'. Wouldnt any normal parent beg for help finding their child? OR ask for people to pray that she was safe and well and would be found?


My husband hasn't really seen any of the news coverage but last night they showed a clip of her saying that and my husband said "Huh? why's she said "shes lovely" and not "pray that she's found safe, she comes home" ect.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> *TWO* crimes was committed that night , the Mccann's leaving their children was the first crime , which left the the door open for the 2nd crime.
> 
> They was never charged with the first crime, yes they are paying a price now. But my sympathies will always be with the innocent in all this, poor Madeleine who's paid the price for both crimes.


I always wonder how many other parents left their children in similar circumstances at that resort prior to Maddie's disappearance or even at the same time?

I honestly don't believe they are the only parents to have done this. I've not been there myself but I was talking to someone who went there a few times prior to this and they they said it it a very family friendly place and the Maccann's apartment was less than a minute's walk from where they were dining, so something they felt safe doing there they probably wouldn't have done in other circumstances. I 'get' that other other people wouldn't have done what they did, but I don't think they were the only parents to have done this, but they are paying the price of that decision.

I feel they can't do right for doing wrong. If they didn't keep pushing every avenue then that would be seen as suspicious.

I hope they find her, but my gut says they won't.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Polimba said:


> I always wonder how many other parents left their children in similar circumstances at that resort prior to Maddie's disappearance or even at the same time?
> 
> I honestly don't believe they are the only parents to have done this. I've not been there myself but I was talking to someone who went there a few times prior to this and they they said it it a very family friendly place and the Maccann's apartment was less than a minute's walk from where they were dining, so something they felt safe doing there they probably wouldn't have done in other circumstances. I 'get' that other other people wouldn't have done what they did, but I don't think they were the only parents to have done this, but they are paying the price of that decision.
> 
> ...


They should be exhausting every avenue because they want to get their baby back not because if they failed to do so they would look guilty.

They are paying the price for neglecting their children, i hope what they did haunts them until they take their last breath.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Julesky said:


> What/who are we to judge?


That's what we as a society do  Who is to says us as "animals" shouldn't go around killing each other because other animals do. We have hopefully evolved (ok a lot of people haven't  ) to have rules , as we have passed judgements as to what is right and what is wrong .


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Polimba said:


> I always wonder how many other parents left their children in similar circumstances at that resort prior to Maddie's disappearance or even at the same time?
> 
> I honestly don't believe they are the only parents to have done this. I've not been there myself but I was talking to someone who went there a few times prior to this and they they said it it a very family friendly place and the Maccann's apartment was less than a minute's walk from where they were dining, so something they felt safe doing there they probably wouldn't have done in other circumstances. I 'get' that other other people wouldn't have done what they did, but I don't think they were the only parents to have done this, but they are paying the price of that decision.
> 
> ...


I don't 'like' the last bit, but I agree with your reasoning.

Also how many innocent children die through tragic accidents when not being supervised- do we even need to look at how many little ones have been strangled by blind cords etc.

Unattended. Unattended in baths etc. The list of human mistakes is epic.

Yes, this was extraordinary in that a group of friends put their kids to bed and left them at that age- awful awful decision.

I wonder how many neighbours etc, nip round to each others or such? It probably happens more than you think- but I digress, that's not the point.

The point is without knowing they were being watched, they UNWITTINGLY made a poor choice that allowed a criminal to commit an act.

As for the, 'they look guilty, I wouldn't say/act like that'- I truly and genuinely hope none of you ever have to find out how innocent or guilty people act first hand.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

harley bear said:


> They should be exhausting every avenue because they want to get their baby back not because if they failed to do so they would look guilty.
> 
> They are paying the price for neglecting their children, i hope what they did haunts them until they take their last breath.


You've miss understood me. There are lots of people, not just on pf, who complain about them always being in the press, it being high profile because they do this, and what about the others, I just think the very same people would then turn it on it's head if they didn't keep it high profile. I don't mean their motivation is to look innocent, surely most parents would want to do what they do so I don't understand why they are criticised for it.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> That's what we as a society do  Who is to says us as "animals" shouldn't go around killing each other because other animals do. We have hopefully evolved (ok a lot of people haven't  ) to have rules , as we have passed judgements as to what is right and what is wrong .


Aye but you need ALL the facts otherwise we'd all be listening to the BS in the papers and believing everything we read and making judgements from there- I direct you again to the landlord in the Bristol flat murder.

That's what courts and the law are for.
Judging them for leaving the kids is one thing- outrightly suggesting they are responsible for their daughter's disappearance is bonkers- How can you say she would not have been taken in other circumstances- someone elses actions?

And judging them based on how they appear is equally shallow.

Would you have wanted them to have their other children taken away and gone to jail for the first 'crime'?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> I don't have anything more to say- we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Pointermum- would you like them to go to jail for leaving their children and have the other 2 taken into care and not be raised by their family?
> 
> ...


Well looking at it from another angle, in this day if anyone is hurt of suffers because of neglect then yes those responsible are normally prosecuted!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Julesky said:


> I don't 'like' the last bit, but I agree with your reasoning.
> 
> Also how many innocent children die through tragic accidents when not being supervised- do we even need to look at how many little ones have been strangled by blind cords etc.


It's interesting you have brought this up.

Just the other day there was a poor mum on 'This Morning' whose toddler sadly passed away through being strangled by a blind cord, her crime, nipping to the loo I think it were.

How many parents have done that? I know I have.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> It's interesting you have brought this up.
> 
> Just the other day there was a poor mum on 'This Morning' whose toddler sadly passed away through being strangled by a blind cord, her crime, nipping to the loo I think it were.
> 
> How many parents have done that? I know I have.


And those blinds, Ikea if my memory serves me correctly have been removed from sale!

The is a vast difference from leaving a child unattended to go to the toilet and leaving three children in an apartment for , what many consider an unacceptable period of time! And beside, were they not consuming alcohol too?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Well looking at it from another angle, in this day if anyone is hurt of suffers because of neglect then yes those responsible are normally prosecuted!


Ben Needham- left alone outside to play at 21 months. Neglect?


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> It's interesting you have brought this up.
> 
> Just the other day there was a poor mum on 'This Morning' whose toddler sadly passed away through being strangled by a blind cord, her crime, nipping to the loo I think it were.
> 
> How many parents have done that? I know I have.


Nipping to the loo isn't the same as ignoring a baby sitting service, choosing to spend a few hours - not 'nipping'- stuffing your face, slurping wine all in the knowledge that your kids are unhappy and wailing for you when you're not there - because they told you that they did when you did it last time.....


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> Nipping to the loo isn't the same as ignoring a baby sitting service, choosing to spend a few hours - not 'nipping'- stuffing your face, slurping wine all in the knowledge that your kids are unhappy and wailing for you when you're not there - because they told you that they did when you did it last time.....


The point is- many people leave their kids.

Not all the deaths from blind cords have been parents 'nipping' anywhere.

Yes the gratuitous nature of the dinner grates everyone- OBVIOUSLY- but hand on heart do you think they would do it again with what has happened.

These are not stupid people- why on earth would she admit to Madeleine crying out for her the night before if it wasn't something she had playing and playing on her mind. They know the backlash that will get


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Julesky said:


> The point is- many people leave their kids.
> 
> Not all the deaths from blind cords have been parents 'nipping' anywhere.
> 
> ...


Really? IMHO only a seriously stupid person would leave their children alone for hours on end!


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

Julesky said:


> The point is- many people leave their kids.
> 
> Not all the deaths from blind cords have been parents 'nipping' anywhere.
> 
> ...


I doubt many - maybe a few... but not many, people leave their kids to basically, behave in a way that childless couples do - that is have a night out eating and drinking and popping back to check three babies in the same way I/many would check on a roasting joint.... and to be honest most people I know would be too scared of fire to leave a joint of meat unattended.... In fact I know of MANY who refuse to leave the washer or drier or dishwasher on whilst they pop out because of what Might happen.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Aye but you need ALL the facts otherwise we'd all be listening to the BS in the papers and believing everything we read and making judgements from there- I direct you again to the landlord in the Bristol flat murder.
> 
> That's what courts and the law are for.
> Judging them for leaving the kids is one thing- outrightly suggesting they are responsible for their daughter's disappearance is bonkers- How can you say she would not have been taken in other circumstances- someone elses actions?
> ...


I've never said i think they killed her etc , just they are very responsible for what happened. I'm think they should have been cautioned or be made to do parenting courses or something ...... as Dr's who think it was acceptable to leave children is very worry, surely they more than anyone should know how quickly children get ill. When my son was 18 months he went to bed fine, for me to be alerted by the noise that he was having a febrile convolution which is common in young children.

I just can't get over them saying Madeleine said they was crying the night before and they thought we must check on them more ... not normal parenting. I would feel bad if i was at home and my daughter said she was crying in bed and i didn't hear her


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> I've never said i think they killed her etc , just they are very responsible for what happened. I'm think they should have been cautioned or be made to do parenting courses or something ...... as Dr's who think it was acceptable to leave children is very worry, surely they more than anyone should know how quickly children get ill. When my son was 18 months he went to bed fine, for me to be alerted by the noise that he was having a febrile convolution which is common in young children.
> 
> I just can't get over them saying Madeleine said they was crying the night before and they thought we must check on them more ... not normal parenting. I would feel bad if i was at home and my daughter said she was crying in bed and i didn't hear her


From the way they described the holiday and the reconstruction to me the kids were nothing but a hindrance! 
It was in no way a family holiday they spent as little time as possible with the kids but made enough time for tennis, running and friends


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> And those blinds, Ikea if my memory serves me correctly have been removed from sale!
> 
> The is a vast difference from leaving a child unattended to go to the toilet and leaving three children in an apartment for , what many consider an unacceptable period of time! And beside, were they not consuming alcohol too?


Ikea may have removed them from sale, there are many other outlets that haven't that's why the poor mum was on This morning, appealing to have them removed from sale everywhere, or for the chords to be made safer.



fierceabby said:


> Nipping to the loo isn't the same as ignoring a baby sitting service, choosing to spend a few hours - not 'nipping'- stuffing your face, slurping wine all in the knowledge that your kids are unhappy and wailing for you when you're not there - because they told you that they did when you did it last time.....


Although I know it is not the same, you are still leaving a child unattended, whether rightly or wrongly, lots can happen in a split second, never mind the hour and a half Madeleine was left.

I don't believe everything I read, I don't believe the conspiracy's against the Mccanns, yes they were in the wrong, I don't deny that, yes they were negligent, I don't deny that either.

I do think the original investigation was incompetent, I have no idea whether the Mccanns are innocent or not, public lynching isn't going to find her or get to the truth any quicker, the only thing that matters to me is finding out what really happened to Madeleine and what has become of her.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> public lynching isn't going to find her or get to the truth any quicker, the only thing that matters to me is finding out what really happened to Madeleine and what has become of her.


I don't think it's a public lynching - it's more people - or just me maybe, saying enough is enough, and in doing so expressing WHY I feel peed off. Other missing kids get ignored. The main reason for me disliking these two is on a base level, they couldn't be bothered to look after their children - but now EXPECT the public to cough up over 5 million pounds to look for her. There are lots of inconsistencies in their versions of events (note - not version - singular), they haven't contributed anything to wider society or parents of other kids by donating that money into something tangible, they still insist they did nothing wrong.

They had a meal out instead of caring for their kids - yet every time I sit down to eat this week and stick the telly on I can't have a meal in peace with out seeing Maddy on the tv. Ironic or what.

I have said before, I hope she turns up, but those two should be charged with neglect.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Hang on a wee minute:
> 
> Madeleine would still be with her family if someone had not committed a crime.
> 
> ...


But that crime (if this did indeed happen) could have been avoided IF they were doing their job as a parent and protecting their children....the fact is they gave a criminal or criminals the OPPORTUNITY to commit a crime ....we cannot control other people around us who will commit crimes - but we CAN control and protect what dangers we put in front of our kids - the fact they still have 2 children is damn lucky because they COULD have taken all three!!!- I dont want anything from the mccanns - although they could admit they were at fault and it is ultimately their responsibility - its all very well saying oh they made a mistake and im sure they are paying for it - but they are not paying as dearly as Maddy wherever she is  I just cannot drum up sympathy for them ....you are right that there are no winners ....but it should never have come to that in the first place - I dont have time for any of the "tappas" parents I think they are all bad parents in doing what they did


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> I don't think it's a public lynching - it's more people - or just me maybe, saying enough is enough, and in doing so expressing WHY I feel peed off. Other missing kids get ignored. The main reason for me disliking these two is on a base level, they couldn't be bothered to look after their children - but now EXPECT the public to cough up over 5 million pounds to look for her. There are lots of inconsistencies in their versions of events (note - not version - singular), they haven't contributed anything to wider society or parents of other kids by donating that money into something tangible, they still insist they did nothing wrong.
> 
> They had a meal out instead of caring for their kids - yet every time I sit down to eat this week and stick the telly on I can't have a meal in peace with out seeing Maddy on the tv. Ironic or what.
> 
> I have said before, I hope she turns up, but those two should be charged with neglect.


Kate Mccann is the ambassador for the charity Missing People.
https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/mi...ch-nationwide-campaign-to-find-missing-people

I don't think anything they do should be monetary, take a look at what Shannon Matthews mother attempted to do because of donations, she had people approaching the Mccanns asking for a share!!

The fact that they are trying to help families of missing people, says a lot to me.

Non of anything else makes an awful lot of sense.

Why put yourself through rounds of IVF to painstakingly conceive a child to then go onto conceal her death, which is what is being accused.

I don't believe anyone would do that.

And yes, negligent, they were, I'm sure they beat themselves round the head with that, every hour of every day I can't see what good would come of it having them prosecuted for that now 6 years later.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

SirHiss said:


> Kate Mccann is the ambassador for the charity Missing People.
> https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/mi...ch-nationwide-campaign-to-find-missing-people
> 
> I don't think anything they do should be monetary, take a look at what Shannon Matthews mother attempted to do because of donations, she had people approaching the Mccanns asking for a share!!
> ...


Rounds of IVF mean nothing, I doubt many people would believe how shockingly high the abortion rate is for people who have gone through IVF.

The be all and end all is that they neglected their child, they admitted to drugging their children so they would sleep! 
Should they have been prosecuted? YES 
Should the other children have been taken away? YES


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

A child they wanted so much they had IVF.. to then leave alone while they dined and drank wine


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

harley bear said:


> Rounds of IVF mean nothing, I doubt many people would believe how *shockingly high the abortion rate *is for people who have gone through IVF.
> 
> The be all and end all is that they neglected their child, they admitted to drugging their children so they would sleep!
> Should they have been prosecuted? YES
> Should the other children have been taken away? YES


Is that not because of either a) Very old parents using IVF to conceive and deciding to abort based on birth 'defects' being picked up on screening and b) IVF being done that results in women carrying more foetuses than can survive, i.e 8 or 9 and then making the decision to abort

Rounds of IVF mean nothing is a dreadfully cold thing to say.

If you are wanting to be that cold to all of the McCanns circumstance you could equally say , 'leaving the children unattended means nothing, someone still took Madeleine'


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Rounds of IVF mean nothing, I doubt many people would believe how shockingly high the abortion rate is for people who have gone through IVF.
> 
> The be all and end all is that they neglected their child, they admitted to drugging their children so they would sleep!
> Should they have been prosecuted? YES
> Should the other children have been taken away? YES


Those rates are high due to babies being diagnosed with sometimes serious genetic abnormalities, lets face it, everyone does want a perfectly healthy baby, some people are cut out to raise children with illnesses, others are not.
It's a personal choice, not one someone should be lambasted for.

Bringing a prosecution against the Mccanns now six years later, serves NO purpose, taking their remaining children away now would be extremely harsh on those children, haven't they already been through enough?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Is that not because of either a) Very old parents using IVF to conceive and deciding to abort based on birth 'defects' being picked up on screening and b) IVF being done that results in women carrying more foetuses than can survive, i.e 8 or 9 and then making the decision to abort
> 
> Rounds of IVF mean nothing is a dreadfully cold thing to say.
> 
> If you are wanting to be that cold to all of the McCanns circumstance you could equally say , 'leaving the children unattended means nothing, someone still took Madeleine'


IVF doesnt mean a thing to how they parent the child! How on gods earth is that cold? 
And no by the IVF abortion rate i mean the people who go through it all and have a change of circumstances, not because of birth defects.

Regardless of how this baby was conceived, regardless of everything they have or HAVENT done to keep their kids safe....the be all and end all is they neglected their children, they do not deserve to be parents.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> A child they wanted so much they had IVF.. to then leave alone while they dined and drank wine


ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!

Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

I wouldn't trust the McCanns as far as I could throw a fridge. 
Into a dump, out of a holiday rental after my kid disappeared, transported in car that had dead people juice in the boot....

Just saying.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

harley bear said:


> IVF doesnt mean a thing to how they parent the child! How on gods earth is that cold?
> *And no by the IVF abortion rate i mean the people who go through it all and have a change of circumstances*, not because of birth defects.
> 
> Regardless of how this baby was conceived, regardless of everything they have or HAVENT done to keep their kids safe....the be all and end all is they neglected their children, *they do not deserve to be parents*.


Got these figures to hand do you? Fab.

Second quote: WOW. I'm out-I cannot reason with a deity.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Julesky said:


> ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!
> 
> Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


Yes they should have been charged with willful neglect. It had happened to someone on my council estate you can bet they would have been. Money and status speak volumes


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

Julesky said:


> ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!
> 
> Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


Quite a few of us said they should be busted for neglect. It's not like haven't admitted their guilt in that.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Julesky said:


> ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!
> 
> Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


We had a family holiday in June...we spent every waking moment with the kids making sure they had a fantastic week! 
At 7pm they were tucked up in bed...where were we? We were curled up on the sofa bed, glass of wine in hand watching a movie on the laptop.

Oh and just for the record we had an AMAZING time ourselves, didnt once feel the need to leave the kids ALONE while we went on the p1ss.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Ben Needham- left alone outside to play at 21 months. Neglect?


I understood Bed was playing outside a farmhouse the grandparents were renovating in broad daylight when he disappeared! The Mccanns Children were left in total darkness whilst the parents partied some 50metres away!
I would SUPPECT that had Bens, parents been concentrating they COULD have at least seen him playing whilst the McCanns didn't have a cat in hells chance.

BUT back to you point, both cases neglect???

Can someone who is conversant with English law please verify please?
That is is NOT against the law to leave a child alone providing that they come to no harm?
BUT, That I they do then you, the adult have commited an offence.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Got these figures to hand do you? Fab.
> 
> Second quote: WOW. I'm out-I cannot reason with a deity.


Suit yourself

:aureola:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

SirHiss said:


> Kate Mccann is the ambassador for the charity Missing People.
> https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/mi...ch-nationwide-campaign-to-find-missing-people
> 
> I don't think anything they do should be monetary, take a look at what Shannon Matthews mother attempted to do because of donations, she had people approaching the Mccanns asking for a share!!
> ...


Why put yourself thru all the trauma of IVF only to leave those children alone in a foreign country to go and socialise with friends ? - now that really does not make sense to me


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

harley bear said:


> We had a family holiday in June...we spent every waking moment with the kids making sure they had a fantastic week!
> At 7pm they were tucked up in bed...where were we? We were curled up on the sofa bed, glass of wine in hand watching a movie on the laptop.
> 
> Oh and just for the record we had an AMAZING time ourselves, didnt once feel the need to leave the kids ALONE while we went on the p1ss.


Yet not so long ago you had social services knocking...just saying

Now before you go jumping up and down at that, the Mccanns faced exactly the same at the hands of social workers when they arrived home to discuss the welfare of their twins.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!
> 
> Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


Yep! most people do drink and dine on holiday! BUT most families would take their children with them! OR take advantage of the babysitting service that the resort offered!

And to answer you other question
NOPE! I don't think the other children should be taken from them as they are in NO danger!
BUT! I do think that they should have been charged with neglect yes! BUT that said that could open up a whole can of worms for other cases which are nothing but accidental!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

SirHiss said:


> Yet not so long ago you had social services knocking...just saying
> 
> Now before you go jumping up and down at that, the Mccanns faced exactly the same at the hands of social workers when they arrived home to discuss the welfare of their twins.


Major difference!

We have not or will never neglect our children in ANY way!

They did! Because they are doctors they got away with it!


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> Yet not so long ago you had social services knocking...just saying
> 
> Now before you go jumping up and down at that, the Mccanns faced exactly the same at the hands of social workers when they arrived home to discuss the welfare of their twins.


And this is the point at which a DEBATE about something that is not connected to any of us personally (as far as we know - no TAPAS people or McCanns on here) turned personal. That was a low blow.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> Yes they should have been charged with willful neglect. It had happened to someone on my council estate you can bet they would have been. Money and status speak volumes


Used to happen on our estate all the time when I was young & no one was ever charged with neglect


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Julesky said:


> ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!


I just wanted to say that while most people do drink and dine on holidays, well I don't drink, but if you are on a friends only holiday you do as you like.

If you go on a family holiday it always used to be, in our family and others, you dine with the children and go back to your rooms when they are tired.

Of course now people love to drink all the time, but in the past we used to eat with our family's and then spend the time with them.

I have no idea what they were thinking, they never even went in to check on them for hours, which they lied about as they said they went in every ten minutes, now there is a space of hours when the 'abductor' got Maddie. There was a nanny service and they had money enough to use it. Honestly, if they were anyone else they would be charged and the twins removed.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

SirHiss said:


> Yet not so long ago you had social services knocking...just saying
> 
> Now before you go jumping up and down at that, the Mccanns faced exactly the same at the hands of social workers when they arrived home to discuss the welfare of their twins.


Exactly...because the McCanns werent led away in handcuffs...people believe that SS rolled out the red carpet for them.

The media doesnt report every fart that flies...some is left to the General Public to use their common sense.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

suzy93074 said:


> Why put yourself thru all the trauma of IVF only to leave those children alone in a foreign country to go and socialise with friends ? - now that really does not make sense to me


Heaven knows what they were thinking, I find that aspect extremely difficult to deal with, maybe they honestly thought they were safe after being there a few days and having the children in that routine.

I can't defend the fact they left those children, yet no one on here can honestly say hand on heart they are a perfect parent, I know I am not far from it.

I'm sure they regret so many things, I'm sure they wish they could turn back the clock and look at things with hindsight


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Why did Kate not answer ONE of the 48 questions put to her when questioned by the police ?? that has always puzzled me - as a mother whos child is missing surely you would answer ANY questions that could help -


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

fierceabby said:


> Nipping to the loo isn't the same as ignoring a baby sitting service, choosing to spend a few hours - not 'nipping'- stuffing your face, slurping wine all in the knowledge that your kids are unhappy and wailing for you when you're not there - because they told you that they did when you did it last time.....


And not forgetting!
Last night on the crimewatch reconstruction Kate also mention that Maddie HAD asked where her parents were when Maddie and one of the twins were crying the evening before!

If your child had asked this of you would anyone have gone out and left them again???


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

SirHiss said:


> Yet not so long ago you had social services knocking...just saying
> .


That was well below the belt and personal


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Why did Kate not answer ONE of the 48 questions put to her when questioned by the police ?? that has always puzzled me - as a mother whos child is missing surely you would answer ANY questions that could help -


There's a lot about this that doesn't add up.

If you were innocent you would tell them everything you could to try to find your little girl.

I for one do not believe she was abducted, but then that's another story.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> And this is the point at which a DEBATE about something that is not connected to any of us personally (as far as we know - no TAPAS people or McCanns on here) turned personal. That was a low blow.


I honestly don't think it was.

You can't portray yourself as a perfect parent and not expect your life to be scrutinized when you have posted the details here for everyone to see.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> That was well below the belt and personal


But true and HB posted it on the forum...so SH was not speaking out of turn.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

DT said:


> And not forgetting!
> Last night on the crimewatch reconstruction Kate also mention that Maddie HAD asked where her parents were when Maddie and one of the twins were crying the evening before!
> 
> If your child had asked this of you would anyone have gone out and left them again???


I feel bad on the cat if I have worked a full day and then had a meeting after and had to go back out... when she gives me that 'are you going out again? face.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

SirHiss said:


> Heaven knows what they were thinking, I find that aspect extremely difficult to deal with, maybe they honestly thought they were safe after being there a few days and having the children in that routine.
> 
> I can't defend the fact they left those children, yet no one on here can honestly say hand on heart they are a perfect parent, I know I am not far from it.
> 
> I'm sure they regret so many things, I'm sure they wish they could turn back the clock and look at things with hindsight


I just dont know either what was in their heads - and Maddy had said to Kate she had woken up alone and did not like it - but then they did the same thing again - surely that was the wake up call they needed that what they were doing was wrong - if a 3yr old child can understand that then wtf ??

Of course no one is perfect im not disputing that - but they did have other choices and they didnt take them - there are not many parents I know that would have gone to the extremes they did for a night out ....:frown5:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

SirHiss said:


> I honestly don't think it was.
> 
> You can't portray yourself as a perfect parent and not expect your life to be scrutinized when you have posted the details here for everyone to see.


When absolutely NOTHING WAS FOUND? EH?

I came on here because i was angry about the way we were both treated by the barstewards BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING!

NOTHING, NOT ONE IOTA OF ANYTHING!


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> I honestly don't think it was.
> 
> You can't portray yourself as a perfect parent and not expect your life to be scrutinized when you have posted the details here for everyone to see.


I just think that dragging something up out of a separate thread that upset HB was below the belt. We have all used 'I would' and 'I have' and 'I know someone' but in illustrating a point on why we formed a particular opinion on the McCanns, where as that just read as a personal attack on HB to discredit her opinions.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

harley bear said:


> When absolutely NOTHING WAS FOUND? EH?
> 
> I came on here because i was angry about the way we were both treated by the barstewards BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING!
> 
> NOTHING, NOT ONE IOTA OF ANYTHING!


How do you know the Mccanns were not treated the same, how do you know they still don't receive visits from social services? Do you live with them? Are you savvy to information we are not?

They probably do still receive visits it is not very often you slip off their radar once you are on file, even when cases are closed.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

SirHiss said:


> How do you know the Mccanns were not treated the same, how do you know they still don't receive visits from social services? Do you live with them? Are you savvy to information we are not?
> 
> They probably do still receive visits it is not very often you slip off their radar once you are on file, even when cases are closed.


But we do not know if that does happen do we ?? the fact none of that is mentioned EVER makes me believe they were prob not really even investigated ....


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

SirHiss said:


> How do you know the Mccanns were not treated the same, how do you know they still don't receive visits from social services? Do you live with them? Are you savvy to information we are not?
> 
> They probably do still receive visits it is not very often you slip off their radar once you are on file, even when cases are closed.


Do you npot watch the news?

Do you not see how many babies die because those freakin IDIOTS who are employed by the government to protect children could not tell their arses from their elbows?

The babies that have been killed have had no end of contact with ss.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> I just think that dragging something up out of a separate thread that upset HB was below the belt. We have all used 'I would' and 'I have' and 'I know someone' but in illustrating a point on why we formed a particular opinion on the McCanns, where as that just read as a personal attack on HB to discredit her opinions.


It was far from a personal attack, whether you believe that or not, I don't care.

Just because I am not hopping up and down to have a prosecution brought against them, or lobbying to have their remaining children taken away does not make my points less valid.

Yeah they left their children to dine with friends, do you not think they beat themselves up over that every day?

Yet interestingly they weren't the only ones doing that, that night. They all were, so should everyones children be taken away, should we prosecute all those families, or just the Mccanns as their daughter is missing.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

SirHiss said:


> How do you know the Mccanns were not treated the same, how do you know they still don't receive visits from social services? Do you live with them? Are you savvy to information we are not?
> 
> They probably do still receive visits it is not very often you slip off their radar once you are on file, even when cases are closed.


I am afraid that some people want the McCanns to suffer further..nothing less will do.

As if taking those babies off the parents would benefit the twins. Have people on here not heard of the horrors some children suffer in care homes...etc.

Like I said before...the McCanns were neglectful on that night and the nights previously. So were their friends who also left their kids. Should SS have removed all that parties kids?

The McCanns have to live with their irresponsibility...cant see what taking the twins away or prosecuting the parents would achieve tbh.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

SirHiss said:


> It was far from a personal attack, whether you believe that or not, I don't care.
> 
> Just because I am not hopping up and down to have a prosecution brought against them, or lobbying to have their remaining children taken away does not make my points less valid.
> 
> ...


I think all the families involved should have been charged with neglect - Im not saying the children should have been taken away from them but a charge of neglect should deffo have taken place ...

End of the day we all have our opinions and we are all entitled to them - surely we can discuss with out people getting personal and angry - :cornut:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I think all the families involved should have been charged with neglect - Im not saying the children should have been taken away from them but a charge of neglect should deffo have taken place ...
> 
> End of the day we all have our opinions and we are all entitled to them - surely we can discuss with out people getting personal and angry - :cornut:


Me too.

My jaw dropped last night when i saw how many 'responsible adults' left their children alone


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> That was well below the belt and personal


I totally agree


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

suzy93074 said:


> But we do not know if that does happen do we ?? the fact none of that is mentioned EVER makes me believe they were prob not really even investigated ....


They were, social workers were photographed leaving their house.



harley bear said:


> Do you npot watch the news?
> 
> Do you not see how many babies die because those freakin IDIOTS who are employed by the government to protect children could not tell their arses from their elbows?
> 
> The babies that have been killed have had no end of contact with ss.


Yes I watch the news everyday, cases opened, cases closed, cases opened again - follow my drift.

Social services are NOT perfect, people these days are clever, real clever at hiding injuries and smearing over the cracks, they are only human and can only take those people at face value.

Again you are listening to the media, takes money and time to apply for court orders and child protection conferences and whilst social services take major flack for all their 'wrongdoings' the real people at fault can sit back and be happy.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

SirHiss said:


> They were, social workers were photographed leaving their house.
> 
> Yes I watch the news everyday, cases opened, cases closed, cases opened again - follow my drift.
> 
> ...


What I do know is social services do fail kids.. they failed me. Despite all the signs been there, despite me telling.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

cloversmum said:


> What I do know is social services do fail kids.. they failed me. Despite all the signs been there, despite me telling.


I accept they do fail, yet without them the world would be a much worse place to be.

We only hear about the bad things that have happened just lately.

You don't get to hear about how many children they have saved, or made life better for.

Social services aren't the only ones with power to remove children, the police can do too in certain circumstances.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

suzy93074 said:


> I just dont know either what was in their heads - and Maddy had said to Kate she had woken up alone and did not like it - but then they did the same thing again - surely that was the wake up call they needed that what they were doing was wrong - if a 3yr old child can understand that then wtf ??
> 
> Of course no one is perfect im not disputing that - but they did have other choices and they didnt take them - there are not many parents I know that would have gone to the extremes they did for a night out ....:frown5:


I can't defend the fact they left those children, no one can.

Yet some of the theories out there don't sit right with me either.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I just wanted to say that while most people do drink and dine on holidays, well I don't drink, but if you are on a friends only holiday you do as you like.
> 
> If you go on a family holiday it always used to be, in our family and others, you dine with the children and go back to your rooms when they are tired.
> 
> ...


I don't think it was 'hours' they left the apartment at something like 8.30 and discovered she was gone at 10pm, that's 90 minutes. I that time GM checked on them at 9pm, another of the party listened at the door and then at 10pm KM discovered she was missing. Clearing people feel at length of time is unacceptable but it wasn't hours.

I also disagree families always tucked themselves up with their kids on holiday. I grew up in the 70s and it was common in holiday camps to use the baby listening services, they'd interrupt the show with 'baby crying in chalet 5' or suchlike. Interestingly I was looking at ski resorts earlier this week and some resorts have a similar set up, they patrol the corridors and let parents know if a child is crying, is that so very different to what the MaCann's did?

I understand other people would not do what they did, but my point is I bet thousands have done similar and no one is crying out for their kids to be taken away. I bet their party weren't the only ones doing a similar thing that evening.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> It was far from a personal attack, whether you believe that or not,* I don't care.*
> 
> Just because I am not hopping up and down to have a prosecution brought against them, or lobbying to have their remaining children taken away does not make my points less valid.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but HB's status with Social Services is completely irrelevant to the actions of the McCanns and therefore was personal and shouldn't come into it. *You should care because personal attacks are against forum rules.*

I personally love debates and even though I don't agree with everyone I do enjoy reading both sides of the argument, and think everyone's opinions are valid - but posters lose some of the impact of their point when they have to resort to calling others on the forum instead of staying focused on the topic. It's almost the same as 'the person who shouts first loses the argument'.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I never believed the abduction story, there are just too many things that make an abduction seem very unlikely.

I never got my head around with the fact that the Mccanns refused to cooperate with the Portuguese police when any other parent would do ANYTHING to help to find their child.
And they didn't refuse to answer the questions out of shock, they knew they were disrupting the investigation and chose to do so.
The fact the cadaver dogs picked up smells in various places and on cuddly cat that conveniently then has been washed by kate.
The disposal of the fridge or them been seen happy and laughing a few days later after the disappearance... very odd for a couple that just apparently had their daughter abducted.
And there are so many other things too many to list.

The fact they stay in the public eye keeps the money coming in... donation by people, by celebrities, sales of books and whatever else. That's a very tempting thing to do if u FEEL very safe that if u done something wrong ur not going to be found out. Alone because of the support u get from people with money.

I think now kate looks very guilt ridden and maybe struggles with what happened but Gerry always has this smug look about him. There is something about him that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

I think the BBC was wrong showing an abduction ... its not confirmed that this was what actually happened 

I also believe they should have been prosecuted, I don't see that someone who neglected their children with a dire consequence to one of them becomes suddenly immune to prosecution just because they have other children to look after. After all they also neglected those two they are responsible for as well.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> What I do know is social services do fail kids.. they failed me. Despite all the signs been there, despite me telling.


I agree...and yet some people want the twins removed from the McCanns and placed into the care system.

Do they really think those babies would be better off away from their Parents....or do they just want to see the parents suffer more than they already are? Sadly...the latter imho.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

chichi said:


> I agree...and yet some people want the twins removed from the McCanns and placed into the care system.
> 
> Do they really think those babies would be better off away from their Parents....or do they just want to see the parents suffer more than they already are? Sadly...the latter imho.


I think it depends on what really happened to Maddie tbh.

If they had a hand in it, then I'm sure the twins are better off in another family.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

chichi said:


> I agree...and yet some people want the twins removed from the McCanns and placed into the care system.
> 
> Do they really think those babies would be better off away from their Parents....or do they just want to see the parents suffer more than they already are? Sadly...the latter imho.


I really believe they were neglectful, and yes they should be aware of that every waking moment, but to make the twins suffer, by removing them? no not unless they were involved


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but HB's status with Social Services is completely irrelevant to the actions of the McCanns and therefore was personal and shouldn't come into it. *You should care because personal attacks are against forum rules.*
> 
> I personally love debates and even though I don't agree with everyone I do enjoy reading both sides of the argument, and think everyone's opinions are valid - but posters lose some of the impact of their point when they have to resort to calling other on the forum instead of staying focused on the topic. It's almost the same as 'the person who shout's first loses the argument'.


Read my post again, I was illustrating a point. It was far from a personal attack, far, far from it.

You cannot, not you, I or anyone portray themselves to be a perfect parent, say you would like to see someones children removed, say you would like a prosecution brought against them, when you have suffered exactly the same scrutiny at the hands of social services and feared having your children removed.

Social services visit Kate McCann to disccuss welfare of the twins | Mail Online

McCann twins may go into care - Telegraph

Removing the remaining Mccann children now, would serve absolutely no purpose, removing them 6 years ago would have served no purpose either especially as they had landed on home soil.

If they were so at risk, why weren't they removed in Portugal by the police after Madeleine went missing?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

chichi said:


> I agree...and yet some people want the twins removed from the McCanns and placed into the care system.
> 
> Do they really think those babies would be better off away from their Parents....or do they just want to see the parents suffer more than they already are? Sadly...the latter imho.


I dont think taking the twins away would benefit anyone involved - and I certainly have never advocated that although I do think a punishment should have been involved for leaving them ......I dont want to see anyone suffer but ultimately I DO blame them and I cannot sympathise as much with them as other cases of genuine abduction ....if this is indeed an abduction case .....


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I dont think taking the twins away would benefit anyone involved - and I certainly have never advocated that although I do think a punishment should have been involved for leaving them ......I dont want to see anyone suffer but ultimately I DO blame them and I cannot sympathise *as much *with them as other cases of genuine abduction ....if this is indeed an abduction case .....


Hello! Back for more post lunch (work avoidance ) debate....

This is a very reasonable post... for me personally I think they have been forever punished by the loss of their daughter

I think it's fair enough for people not to sympathise with them as much or at all.

And i'm defo not saying you are doing this Suzy!! But I feel there's a difference between not sympathising and saying people don't deserve children/ have something to do with the disappearance.

Detectives would love to crack this case- can you imagine the notoriety they would achieve. All these so called- evidence and rumours etc. we the public just do not know, it is slander at best and dangerous at worse to go around saying some of the things people say on here.

Paedophile and abduction groups DO exist and DO operate. Sadly this is much bigger than just Madeleine. Maybe all of this publicity etc. may one day lead to a breakdown of these crimes to the benefit of children and parents all over the world.

Just my thoughts!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Natik said:


> I think the BBC was wrong showing an abduction ... its not confirmed that this was what actually happened


The BBC didn't show an abduction.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

i can understand the way people are viewing Kate and Gerry Mccann, tbh i don't know what i think about it all.

The hotel had a night creche. Leaving them alone, anyone leaving any kids alone in fact is unacceptable.

My friend ran out of electric, daughter in bed, did she bugger of just to nip to the shop? No, i went picked money and electric fob up and went to the shop for her.

Kate also refused to answer questions in police station. A simple question of #what did you see when you got back to the apartment' if it was me i'd be answering whatever they asked to get my baby back.

The 48 questions Kate McCann wouldn't answer - and the one she did | Mail Online

I hope more than anything that little Madeline is found. Just to know she's safe.


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## fire-siamesekitty (Jun 8, 2010)

I have a feeling that she is still alive..


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

bearcub said:


> The BBC didn't show an abduction.


i never watched it tbh so if they didn't that's fair enough but any reconstruction they showed is mostly based on assumptions i guess.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Well like they said last night, the younger a child disappears the more cases where they have been recovered at some point in the future

To wit, maybe it's good we're still having this debate- it is still in the public forum!!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Natik said:


> i never watched it tbh so if they didn't that's fair enough but any reconstruction they showed is mostly based on assumptions i guess.


No. The reconstruction was based on fact and witness accounts.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

From when I first read this story I believe the parents were involved and I still do. Perhaps something happened and to 'cover' it up they made up a lie of their little girl being abducted IMO.


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

i always wanted to believe that the parents were innocent in all of this. i suppose because i have children and cannot imagine any parent doing any such harm but reading this today has made me think very differently about the whole thing. i know you cannot believe everything you read but this has made me look at it in an entirely different light
NHS: The McCanns' Abuse of Power: 100 reasons why Madeleine McCann was not abducted


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I think it depends on what really happened to Maddie tbh.
> 
> If they had a hand in it, then I'm sure the twins are better off in another family.


But EV, you cannot take children away from parents, where some "believe" the parents had a hand in it.

I think the idea that the McCanns killed that poor girl (by mistake or whatever) and then disposed of her body....is....laughable. Do you not think that in this day and age, with the crimes that get solved from the merest speck of DNA, that those parents would be in clink by now, if they were guilty of anything other than being bloody stupid.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

cats galore said:


> i always wanted to believe that the parents were innocent in all of this. i suppose because i have children and cannot imagine any parent doing any such harm but reading this today has made me think very differently about the whole thing. i know you cannot believe everything you read but this has made me look at it in an entirely different light
> NHS: The McCanns' Abuse of Power: 100 reasons why Madeleine McCann was not abducted


I stand by what I think from reading this. I believe they accidently killed their own child and always have thought this.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I havent read the thread so apologies if already posted

I have always believed she was killed by her parents

Just came across this article as well today

What Really Happened to Madeleine McCann? 60 reasons which suggest that she was not abducted


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I dont think taking the twins away would benefit anyone involved - and I certainly have never advocated that although I do think a punishment should have been involved for leaving them ......I dont want to see anyone suffer but ultimately I DO blame them and I cannot sympathise as much with them as other cases of genuine abduction ....if this is indeed an abduction case .....


I cannot disagree with anything you have said Suzy. I do not sympathise with them and I do believe their judgement to leave their children with just periodic checks was a ridiculous/dangerous decision.

However, from previous discussions we have had on this forum, several parents have said they leave their children here and there unsupervised. Sadly, it does not seem that leaving children unsupervised is a rare decision made by parents. Indeed, how many couples that night of Madeleine's disappearance left their babies without constant/adequate supervision.

What I dislike is the people that want them prosecuted (would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever, to anyone). I do think that SS should have made more of a hoohar over the children being left, just as a message to other parents who may think it is okay to leave youngsters in that way.

Taking the children away, without a speck of evidence that the parents have done wrong, is just not even a possibility and those people that want that, I just do not understand.

Let's not forget that on this Forum, Michael Le Vell was shat upon from a great height (as have other celebs arrested and charged by the Police). When will people realise (not you in any way Suzy....others) that just because certain people think a person is guilty of something, legal action should be taken. That attitude is wrong!

Innocent until proven guilty is the way British Law goes, so why do many members of the public feel that they can condemn a person on hearsay and the mutterings of the gutter press. That is what annoys me so much. The "there's no smoke without fire...." comment that is often spouted, makes my blood boil.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Just to add- all these links being posted are brilliant but do you really think all the evidence is in the public domain and that the UKs top detectives have not considered this whilst we minions at home go... oh my gawd, that suggests the parents did it!!!

It's called sensationalism.

Lots of people profiteer from it others just like spouting on the interweb

I'd rather put my trust in the detectives- many of whom will be parents- finding out what happened to this girl.

It is common sense to assume they have been ruled out for a reason.


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

This just came up on my TL


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

bearcub said:


> No. The reconstruction was based on fact and witness accounts.


The reporter stating madeleine was abducted 6 years ago is hardly a fact though but rather a assumption


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

emmaviolet said:


> I think it depends on what really happened to Maddie tbh.
> 
> If they had a hand in it, then I'm sure the twins are better off in another family.


If its proven they were involved then its a different matter ..............


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

chichi said:


> I cannot disagree with anything you have said Suzy. I do not sympathise with them and I do believe their judgement to leave their children with just periodic checks was a ridiculous/dangerous decision.
> 
> However, from previous discussions we have had on this forum, several parents have said they leave their children here and there unsupervised. Sadly, it does not seem that leaving children unsupervised is a rare decision made by parents. Indeed, how many couples that night of Madeleine's disappearance left their babies without constant/adequate supervision.
> 
> ...


I agree that evidence is needed before any prosecutions of course it is ...but my gut instinct has always been they knew more than they let on ...I dont know why I think that I just do ....too many flaws , too many discrepancies although I do concede that the original case was messed up by the police on many points

I think its just all very emotive which makes people judge - I myself am guilty of that but its just human nature ......people will always speculate but its good to debate and talk about it and I do take other peoples views about it on board ....


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

chichi said:


> But EV, you cannot take children away from parents, where some "believe" the parents had a hand in it.
> 
> I think the idea that the McCanns killed that poor girl (by mistake or whatever) and then disposed of her body....is....laughable. Do you not think that in this day and age, with the crimes that get solved from the merest speck of DNA, that those parents would be in clink by now, if they were guilty of anything other than being bloody stupid.


I only meant that is in fact they are involved, then no they are not the best place for the twins.

Actually it is a big misconception that DNA really solves every case, I saw a CSI specialist who said it isn't as simple as that. Obviously their DNA was everywhere anyway.

There was no other DNA that led them to anyone else though, plus everything was washed by Kate and Gerry.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Personally, and I know they are not used as evidence I think both the McCanns should be made to take a Polygraph test.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

fierceabby said:


> I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but HB's status with Social Services is completely irrelevant to the actions of the McCanns and therefore was personal and shouldn't come into it. *You should care because personal attacks are against forum rules.*
> 
> I personally love debates and even though I don't agree with everyone I do enjoy reading both sides of the argument, and think everyone's opinions are valid - but posters lose some of the impact of their point when they have to resort to calling others on the forum instead of staying focused on the topic. It's almost the same as 'the person who shouts first loses the argument'.


Hear Hear!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I read somewhere they even washed the curtains in the apartment after her disappearance. I mean who does that?
I just came back from holidays and no way the thought of washing the curtains did cross my mind even if they ended up dirty... that's what the cleaners are for once u go home


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

suzy93074 said:


> I agree that evidence is needed before any prosecutions of course it is ...but my gut instinct has always been they knew more than they let on ...I dont know why I think that I just do ....too many flaws , too many discrepancies although I do concede that the original case was messed up by the police on many points
> 
> I think its just all very emotive which makes people judge - I myself am guilty of that but its just human nature ......people will always speculate but its good to debate and talk about it and I do take other peoples views about it on board ....


Your not alone in thinking that, my partner does too.

He was going out the door this morning as I were playing catch up on iplayer, his leaving comment was ''Gerry looked rather shifty on Crimewatch''

What I will say is this, it would really take some doing, to keep covering your tracks and keep remembering what you did and have said for six years without raising the suspicion of detectives now working on the case here.

I am disappointed with all the coverage Madeleine has had and there are things the Mccanns are guilty of I agree, I don't for one minute believe they played any part in her disappearance though, it would be some charade to keep up and keep going surely after six years someone somewhere would have snapped under pressure.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Natik said:


> I read somewhere they even washed the curtains in the apartment after her disappearance. I mean who does that?
> I just came back from holidays and no way the thought of washing the curtains did cross my mind even if they ended up dirty... that's what the cleaners are for once u go home


But is it true, or is it yet more speculation, added in by the gutter press for effect.

Something we will never know most likely.

But I certainly won't judge unless evidence is put out there by the Police. The press cannot be trusted to utter the truth. They just sell papers and people like to see others hung out to dry (for some reason) whether guilty or not.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

SirHiss said:


> Your not alone in thinking that, my partner does too.
> 
> He was going out the door this morning as I were playing catch up on iplayer, his leaving comment was ''Gerry looked rather shifty on Crimewatch''
> 
> ...


But there is many details that have changed over the years
Including how often they claimed to check on the children

weather the shutters on the window were open or shut

weather the apartment was locked and all windows were shut or infact the patio door had been left open

and probably more I dont know about


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

babycham2002 said:


> But there is many details that have changed over the years
> Including how often they claimed to check on the children
> 
> weather the shutters on the window were open or shut
> ...


I believe the media and the shoddy Portuguese investigation played a massive part in that.

Some of the highest ranking, most respected detectives are now working on the case here in England, I am absolutely 100% sure they would not risk putting their reputation at stake if they thought for one minute the Mccanns had anything to do with Madeleine going missing.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

babycham2002 said:


> But there is many details that have changed over the years
> Including how often they claimed to check on the children
> 
> weather the shutters on the window were open or shut
> ...


I think the problem is that the details have been fed through the media, i's not the same as listening to evidence on a trial. There is so much stuff made up or twisted the general public don't know.

IMO if there is so much overwhelming circumstantial evidence to implicate the parents that the police would be going down that line of inquiry. It would be much easier for the Met to build a case around the parents than look for a generic looking bloke with brown hair heading to the beach.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

SirHiss said:


> I believe the media and the shoddy Portuguese investigation played a massive part in that.
> 
> Some of the highest ranking, most respected detectives are now working on the case here in England, I am absolutely 100% sure they would not risk putting their reputation at stake if they thought for one minute the Mccanns had anything to do with Madeleine going missing.


No the changing stories are documented in the released portuguese investigation files

I feel that their investigations were severely effected by the fact that the Mccanns were bought back to England and effectively wrapped in bubble wrap by our own goverment and media who flatly refused to imagine that the mccanns had anything to do with it.

We don't know that those detectives now working on it are not infact putting together a carefully considered case to one day finally put them both away for what they done


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

fierceabby said:


> I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but HB's status with Social Services is completely irrelevant to the actions of the McCanns and therefore was personal and shouldn't come into it. *You should care because personal attacks are against forum rules.*
> 
> I personally love debates and even though I don't agree with everyone I do enjoy reading both sides of the argument, and think everyone's opinions are valid - but posters lose some of the impact of their point when they have to resort to calling others on the forum instead of staying focused on the topic. It's almost the same as 'the person who shouts first loses the argument'.


HB I am sure you know I have great sympathy and anger for what social services put you through but imagine you were in the papers and being discussed on forums with people condeming you saying you had done something as awful as kill your own child and were playing a massive charade for years. It must add to the awfulness of it all surely

Yes it was a hugely risky and neglectful error they made but my god what a price they have paid, surely you can see the grief etched on that womans face. I am sure they have spent every day since wondering if their little girl is still alive and if so playing over in their minds what is happening to her.

Suppose the children were in the child minding service and someone working there still hurt or abducted her are they still guilty of neglect?

As for all the stories of them waking crying, washing curtains, fridges etc - who has read this in official police reports as opposed to the Press?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> *As for all the stories of them waking crying*, washing curtains, fridges etc - who has read this in official police reports as opposed to the Press?


That one came out of their own mouths last night


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

A little of track maybe
but why was Goncalo Amaral's book banned?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

babycham2002 said:


> No the changing stories are documented in the released portuguese investigation files
> 
> I feel that their investigations were severely effected by the fact that the Mccanns were bought back to England and effectively wrapped in bubble wrap by our own goverment and media who flatly refused to imagine that the mccanns had anything to do with it.
> 
> We don't know that those detectives now working on it are not infact putting together a carefully considered case to one day finally put them both away for what they done


I haven't looked at the files, they don't interest me. The fact one of the very detectives working on the case wrote a book to generate money for himself off the back off a missing child, speaks volumes. He is now on trail himself facing libel allegations.

The detectives working on the case may be doing just that, yet I feel it's wrong to pass comment on that, until and if something in that respect actually happens.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

SirHiss said:


> I haven't looked at the files, they don't interest me. The fact one of the very detectives working on the case wrote a book to generate money for himself off the back off a missing child, speaks volumes. He is now on trail himself facing libel allegations.
> 
> *The detectives working on the case may be doing just that, yet I feel it's wrong to pass comment on that, until and if something in that respect actually happens*.


Well said.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> That one came out of their own mouths last night


Yep! Specifically mentions Maddie asking
Where were (or why didn't you or daddy come) you are daddy when I one of the twins were crying for you last night?
Or words to that effect


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DT said:


> Yep! Specifically mentions Maddie asking
> Where were (or why didn't you or daddy come) you are daddy when I one of the twins were crying for you last night?
> Or words to that effect


Breaks my heart that does


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> That one came out of their own mouths last night


My son cried his eyes out and hung onto his Nan's legs when she took him to playgroup does not make her capable of murdering him though.

Personally it's not something I would have done my son had his meals with the family. I never even left my boy with a baby sitter other than my mother but thats me and I don't condemn parents who think differently.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

SirHiss said:


> The detectives working on the case may be doing just that, yet I feel it's wrong to pass comment on that, until and if something in that respect actually happens.


Well that's up to isn't it

Did you also feel like that about Mick Philpott, about Ian Huntley or maybe Stuart Hazell?
Or because they aren't middle class doctors with huge amounts of money and teams of lawyers behind them you allow yourself to see them as guilty before proven?


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

There has been talks about this pair and Maddie before, I will say it again though. I'm unsure about whether the McCanns are guilty of anything other than crass selfishness over them having time away from their kids without adequate supervision on holiday. My main thing being if you take your kids away with you then they eat with you, but hey I admit that maybe old fashioned. :001_rolleyes:

Something about this case stinks, something nasty and bad and I'm afraid the parents are part of that stink. I would dearly love to be proved wrong but my gut is they know or are hiding something. I do not think that they have told the whole truth, if they have why have so many of the Portuguese polices questions gone unanswered. I for one would spill my guts if I had nothing to hide.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> Well that's up to isn't it
> 
> Did you also feel like that about Mick Philpott, about Ian Huntley or maybe Stuart Hazell?
> Or because they aren't middle class doctors with huge amounts of money and teams of lawyers behind them you allow yourself to see them as guilty before proven?


Or the landlord in Jo yeates- who was innocent?

Justice For Ayla: Parents Wrongly Accused of Killing Their Children

It works both ways, sadly


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> My son cried his eyes out and hung onto his Nan's legs when she took him to playgroup does not make her capable of murdering him though.
> 
> Personally it's not something I would have done my son had his meals with the family. I never even left my boy with a baby sitter other than my mother but thats me and* I don't condemn parents who think differently*.


I don't condemn parents for thinking differently but i do those who are guilty of child neglect and leaving 3 children 3 and under alone in a villa at night is neglect .


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> Well that's up to isn't it
> 
> Did you also feel like that about Mick Philpott, about Ian Huntley or maybe Stuart Hazell?
> Or because they aren't middle class doctors with huge amounts of money and teams of lawyers behind them you allow yourself to see them as guilty before proven?


Wasn't Phillpot, Huntley and Hazell convicted of their crimes. Seems the British Justice system found them guilty.

The McCanns are guilty of leaving their kids unsupervised, just like the rest of the parents they dined with that night. That doesn't make them murderers, paedophiles or rapists.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

harley bear said:


> We had a family holiday in June...we spent every waking moment with the kids making sure they had a fantastic week!
> At 7pm they were tucked up in bed...where were we? We were curled up on the sofa bed, glass of wine in hand watching a movie on the laptop.
> 
> Oh and just for the record we had an AMAZING time ourselves, didnt once feel the need to leave the kids ALONE while we went on the p1ss.


They weren't out on the piss they were having an evening meal with friends. I don't see how this pointing the finger of blame is helping find Madeleine.


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## lisa0307 (Aug 25, 2009)

For Kate McCann to say they're not to blame for Maddies disappearance it's the person that took her that's at fault...that's as maybe but even if this pair didn't have anything to do with her disappearance (and I not so sure) they were still a pair of selfish parents, along with all the others at that restaurant table that night...to leave such young children without any supervision is just selfish beyond belief....these people are wealthy and could have paid for childcare for a few hours or even had the children at the restaurant but they thought of their own enjoyment first and their children a very poor second.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> I don't condemn parents for thinking differently but i do those who are guilty of child neglect and leaving 3 children 3 and under alone in a villa at night is neglect .


As I say its not something I would do but to me its like saying poor little Jamie Bulgers mother was guilty of neglect because she let go of his hand and took her eyes off him and he was gone


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Or the landlord in Jo yeates- who was innocent?
> 
> Justice For Ayla: Parents Wrongly Accused of Killing Their Children
> 
> It works both ways, sadly


Of course it does at it saddens me when cases go either way due to mistakes in investigations that could easily have been avoided.

My point is we are allowed to have opinions on them, to speculate. It's human nature.
I'm not saying it is nice. But is there. Probably from as soon as we learnt to communicate we began to speculate on others.

I like I am sure many others, upon seeing the first televised interviews with the men I named above immediately said they were responsible for their actions. 
Not based on general appearance but on their body language, their intonation and choice of words used, the micro expressions and gestures they gave.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Julesky said:


> ON their holiday not like it was your average Tuesday night- most people drink and dine on holiday FFS!
> 
> Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


True, but most responsible parensts who go on holiday with their kids don't go out wining and dining with their friends _every night_ leaving their kids alone in their holiday flat instead of hiring a babysitter or using the night creche.

Or to put it another way, which headlines evoke more sympathy "Child goes missing whilst mother turns to pay for family holiday meal", "Child goes missing from locked holiday flat whilst parents sleep" or "Child goes missing after being repeatedly left alone in holiday flat whilst parents wine and dine"?

What I would _like_ is for them to have at least admitted they were very wrong to leave the children alone night after night rather than using the care facilities available, and therefore created the oppotunity for Maddie to be taken. But I honestly don't ever recall any statement to that effect, only something along the lines of they felt guilty about not being there the moment she was taken. Nothing about leaving her alone and creating the opportunity for that to happen. If anyone can find any interviews to the contrary, apologies for missing them... 

As an aside, if we assume that Maddie WAS abducted, I wonder why they didn't take the other kids too? Never really thought about that before...


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Why do people keep going on about money? What the heck has that got to do with anything? So what if they had professional careers? That doesn't make them any less parents than someone else to lives on a rough estate. They made a choice and has to live with the consequences of those actions.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

DT said:


> A little of track maybe
> but why was Goncalo Amaral's book banned?


I think is was under defamation laws.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> As I say its not something I would do but to me its like saying poor little Jamie Bulgers mother was guilty of neglect because she let go of his hand and took her eyes off him and he was gone


That's completely different !! We have all had to let go of a toddler to pay for something at a till , pick something up of a shelf . Government guildlines are children under 12 shouldn't be left home alone.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> As I say its not something I would do but to me its like saying poor little Jamie Bulgers mother was guilty of neglect because she let go of his hand and took her eyes off him and he was gone


I disagree? How can they possibly be the same?

I am sure every parent has let go of their childs hand for a second at some point.

I am pretty sure that a very small percentage go on holiday and nip off out for dinner every night leaving their (tiny)children at home alone


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

chichi said:


> Wasn't Phillpot, Huntley and Hazell convicted of their crimes. Seems the British Justice system found them guilty.
> 
> The McCanns are guilty of leaving their kids unsupervised, just like the rest of the parents they dined with that night. That doesn't make them murderers, paedophiles or rapists.


But its only a matter of time I hope until they are found guilty

As you will see in my later post, I said those men were guilty as soon as I first set eyes on them. As I am sure many people round the country did so

Would you have been offended by that then? Would you have cried in protest for those men before they were found guilty?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> That's completely different !! We have all had to let go of a toddler to pay for something at a till , pick something up of a shelf . Government guildlines are children under 12 shouldn't be left home alone.


I didn't, mine was on reins 

Oh I thought it was under 13 actually?


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

lisa0307 said:


> For Kate McCann to say they're not to blame for Maddies disappearance it's the person that took her that's at fault...that's as maybe but even if this pair didn't have anything to do with her disappearance (and I not so sure) they were still a pair of selfish parents, along with all the others at that restaurant table that night...to leave such young children without any supervision is just selfish beyond belief....these people are wealthy and could have paid for childcare for a few hours or even had the children at the restaurant but they thought of their own enjoyment first and their children a very poor second.


I think they put their childrens needs above their own. They obviously thought that my putting them to bed would be the best option rather that leaving them in a noisy creche only for them to be disturbed and possibly woken up and put to bed later on. I can honestly (as a parent myself) see how they thought by leaving their kids tucked up soundly asleep would be a good idea and periodically checked on them. Loads of my friends do this kind of arrangement all the time and have done for years.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> Of course it does at it saddens me when cases go either way due to mistakes in investigations that could easily have been avoided.
> 
> My point is we are allowed to have opinions on them, to speculate. It's human nature.
> I'm not saying it is nice. But is there. Probably from as soon as we learnt to communicate we began to speculate on others.
> ...


True- but the great variety of people as individuals means no one will react the same way



Jesthar said:


> True, but most responsible parensts who go on holiday with their kids don't go out wining and dining with their friends _every night_ leaving their kids alone in their holiday flat instead of hiring a babysitter or using the night creche.
> 
> Or to put it another way, which headlines evoke more sympathy "Child goes missing whilst mother turns to pay for family holiday meal", "Child goes missing from locked holiday flat whilst parents sleep" or "Child goes missing after being repeatedly left alone in holiday flat whilst parents wine and dine"?
> 
> ...


Kate McCann: 'It's dreadful living with this void' - Telegraph

Also Jesthar for you: I imagine if she was abducted- maybe it is easier to reason with a 3 year old not to scream/ carry her than try and carry 3 children 2 of whom are little more than babes.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> As I say its not something I would do but to me its like saying poor little Jamie Bulgers mother was guilty of neglect because she let go of his hand and took her eyes off him and he was gone


A matter of a minute or two is entirely different to leaving your kids aged 3 and under in an apartment every night whilst you and your friends enjoy a peaceful (no kids about) meal with a bottle or two of wine. Any parent that does what the McCanns did is irresponsible at best. This wasn't a case of locking the door (they didn't) and nipping to the corner shop for some milk, this was leaving very young children alone for more than a couple of hours. They must take some responsibility if just through the view of neglect. If they had eaten earlier with their kids or taken the kids with them then Maddie would still be with them.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> That's completely different !! We have all had to let go of a toddler to pay for something at a till , pick something up of a shelf . Government guildlines are children under 12 shouldn't be left home alone.


Sorry this is going off on a tangent, but why is it not ok to leave a child under 12/13 at home on their own but they can go out on their own? Surely it's more risky to be out and about at that age than at home?


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> That's completely different !! We have all had to let go of a toddler to pay for something at a till , pick something up of a shelf . Government guildlines are children under 12 shouldn't be left home alone.


Actually there is no age limit to when a child can be left according to the Government:

https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone


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## AnnC (Apr 18, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> What I would _like_ is for them to have at least admitted they were very wrong to leave the children alone night after night rather than using the care facilities available, and therefore created the oppotunity for Maddie to be taken. But I honestly don't ever recall any statement to that effect, only something along the lines of they felt guilty about not being there the moment she was taken. Nothing about leaving her alone and creating the opportunity for that to happen.


Do the McCann's owe us an explanation for their actions? Are we in a position of judgement over them? 
Whilst I agree with the aid of hind sight it was a risky thing to do, but what ever we say they must have said and blamed themselves for a thousand times over.

I think we're all guilty of making stupid choices at times, theirs just had terrible consequences for the rest of theirs and their childrens lives.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

bird said:


> A matter of a minute or two is entirely different to leaving your kids aged 3 and under in an apartment every night whilst you and your friends enjoy a peaceful (no kids about) meal with a bottle or two of wine. Any parent that does what the McCanns did is irresponsible at best. This wasn't a case of locking the door (they didn't) and nipping to the corner shop for some milk, this was leaving very young children alone for more than a couple of hours. They must take some responsibility if just through the view of neglect. If they had eaten earlier with their kids or taken the kids with them then Maddie would still be with them.


So if they had nipped to the shop and she was abducted they would not be to blame then? Is it a case of how long is acceptable?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> Why do people keep going on about money? What the heck has that got to do with anything? So what if they had professional careers? That doesn't make them any less parents than someone else to lives on a rough estate. They made a choice and has to live with the consequences of those actions.


I think it's twofold. One, they could easily afford the childcare services at the hotel rather than leave three very young children on their own and drugged. Two, if they had been from a sinkhole estate, then there may well have been a more vitriolic public reaction to them leaving their children alone and drugged.

True, the second point can only ever be conjecture. But the first is factual enough to raise questions and comments about their decisions that week.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

babycham2002 said:


> Well that's up to isn't it
> 
> Did you also feel like that about Mick Philpott, about Ian Huntley or maybe Stuart Hazell?
> Or because they aren't middle class doctors with huge amounts of money and teams of lawyers behind them you allow yourself to see them as guilty before proven?


All of which were charged and found guilty relatively quickly, all of whom leaving huge trails of evidence behind them, nothing was circumstantial in any of those cases, all of whom I believe also confessed to each killing or having played a part in each one. Again so much more to those cases than the media put out, or were allowed to.

In the end no matter how much money you have does not save you, so I fail to see how it is relevant.

Look at it from another point of view, if you were accused of killing your daughter, and saw that someone had published those accusations anywhere, when you know you are completely innocent, would you not employ lawyers to fight those accusations?

I don't believe in trail by media it can do an awful lot of damage before anything has even started, say for instance they were eventually charged, what then?

It sure won't be them facing the backlash, everyone finger pointing with their 'told you so's' then everyone just focusing on how crap the police were and how shoddy the legal system is, over here and in Portugal and in the thick of it Madeleine will still be missing.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Polimba said:


> Sorry this is going off on a tangent, but why is it not ok to leave a child under 12/13 at home on their own but they can go out on their own? Surely it's more risky to be out and about at that age than at home?


I guess at home they could try to cook dinner with gas, knifes etc , it's only "guidelines" . Roads are the biggest danger of them being out and about.

I guess it's down to knowing your own child and how sensible they are or not.

There some things in life you do have to "risk" like my son (12) does take himself to school on the bus everyday . Would i be neglectful if he got run over , i don't think so but equally if i let my 5 year old do the same yes i would be.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> I think it's twofold. One, they could easily afford the childcare services at the hotel rather than leave three very young children on their own and drugged. Two, if they had been from a sinkhole estate, then there may well have been a more vitriolic public reaction to them leaving their children alone and drugged.
> 
> True, the second point can only ever be conjecture. But the first is factual enough to raise questions and comments about their decisions that week.


Were they drugged? Is that a undisputed fact?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> Actually there is no age limit to when a child can be left according to the Government:
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone


READ i said guidelines


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> I think it's twofold. One, they could easily afford the childcare services at the hotel rather than leave three very young children on their own and drugged. Two, if they had been from a sinkhole estate, then there may well have been a more vitriolic public reaction to them leaving their children alone and drugged.
> 
> True, the second point can only ever be conjecture. But the first is factual enough to raise questions and comments about their decisions that week.


And the evidence/proof they were drugged is .............. ?

I don't think you could get a more vitriolic reaction then to say they murdered their own daughter and hid her body


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> So if they had nipped to the shop and she was abducted they would not be to blame then? Is it a case of how long is acceptable?


Neither one is acceptable. 

I find the while idea of leaving kids especially of that age in a property whilst the adults go off and enjoy a meal totally abhorrent.

They allegdedly did this every night, and the door was unlocked. FFS am I the only one that sees this as wrong, and never once have the McCann said that they wished or they shouldn't have done this.  heck if this is the modern world you can keep it (I'm only 50). Whilst in no way do I think children should be mollycoddled and wrapped up but then neither should they be left in the hope that they stay asleep whilst you enjoy your self elsewhere either.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> I think it's twofold. One, they could easily afford the childcare services at the hotel rather than leave three very young children on their own and drugged. Two, if they had been from a sinkhole estate, then there may well have been* a more vitriolic public reaction* to them leaving their children alone and drugged.
> 
> True, the second point can only ever be conjecture. But the first is factual enough to raise questions and comments about their decisions that week.


This thread, countless threads online and about a million comments under every single article about them have a huge public backlash against them.

How vitriolic does a backlash have to be before we can separate it on a class scale?

The media vilify them through choice quotations.

Equally they clearly have nothing to hide- do you not think they realise the condemnation that saying, that she cried for them the very night before would give them.

And the condemnation is understandable- but the message and awareness for the missing girl is more important than all of this.

Many parents will now consider their actions far more carefully - many won't need to because they consider themselves careful enough.

But just remember there do exist awful people who will use any chance they can to hurt other people- they will take opportunities.

As a parent the hardest job ever must be trying to prevent all of these opportunities from arising.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> I guess at home they could try to cook dinner with gas, knifes etc , it's only "guidelines" . Roads are the biggest danger of them being out and about.
> 
> I guess it's down to knowing your own child and how sensible they are or not.
> 
> There some things in life you do have to "risk" like my son (12) does take himself to school on the bus everyday . Would i be neglectful if he got run over , i don't think so but equally if i let my 5 year old do the same yes i would be.


Yes I totally agree and it's all about risks and circumstances. It just seems quite old and I know my friend often leaves her son at home while she plays tennis, but the club is at the end of the garden and he's 12. That does't seem awful to me.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> But its only a matter of time I hope until they are found guilty
> 
> As you will see in my later post, I said those men were guilty as soon as I first set eyes on them. As I am sure many people round the country did so
> 
> Would you have been offended by that then? Would you have cried in protest for those men before they were found guilty?


This is six years on and still no charges brought. Don't you think that something would have come to light by now, if the McCanns actually did physically harm or dispose of their Daughter.

And no I didn't defend the murderers, etc., because there was evidence from the off....

I have never once looked at the McCanns and thought "I bet you murdered your little girl" However, if in their past, they had been arrested for rape/indecent assault or such like (as I believe Huntley was) or violence (as I believe Hazell was) it might have crossed my mind (still wouldn't be sure of guilt but would definitely sway me I'm sure). However, these were Doctors. Their only crime, in my mind, was stupidly thinking that their children were safe, just like their friends dining with them also did.

Their "crime" has affected Madeleine, whether it be by her death or whatever grim actions may have been carried out. That is different to murder, abduction or any other punishable crime.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

bird said:


> Neither one is acceptable.
> 
> I find the while idea of leaving kids especially of that age in a property whilst the adults go off and enjoy a meal totally abhorrent.
> 
> They allegdedly did this every night, and the door was unlocked. FFS am I the only one that sees this as wrong, and never once have the McCann said that they wished or they shouldn't have done this.  heck if this is the modern world you can keep it (I'm only 50). Whilst in no way do I think children should be mollycoddled and wrapped up but then neither should they be left in the hope that they stay asleep whilst you enjoy your self elsewhere either.


I am old fashioned too then as I said I never used a babysitter unless it was my mum, I rarely went out when he was little anyway I had him so I looked after him. I hate it when people leave little ones with a family member to go out enjoying themselves then pick them up disturbing their sleep to take them home - doesn't make me a better parent then some one who chooses to do that though.

Look at the cases where children in nurseries have been abused, is it the parents fault for not staying at home and looking after them themselves?

They took an awful utterly irresponsible risk and paid the ultimate price but to say that means they obviously killed her ?


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> I am old fashioned too then as I said I never used a babysitter unless it was my mum, I rarely went out when he was little anyway I had him so I looked after him. I hate it when people leave little ones with a family member to go out enjoying themselves then pick them up disturbing their sleep to take them home - doesn't make me a better parent then some one who chooses to do that though.
> 
> Look at the cases where children in nurseries have been abused, is it the parents fault for not staying at home and looking after them themselves?
> 
> They took an awful utterly irresponsible risk and paid the ultimate price but to say that means they obviously killed her ?


I have never said that they killed her, just that something (and as with everyone else have only read what's been published) stinks about this.

It stinks that they did not answer all the police questions.....why not? Now I can understand if something has been phrased in a way that makes you not want to answer, but if they are asking for public support then they need to be a squeaky clean as can be.

They have never (to my knowledge) acknowledged that they were irresponsible at best in leaving the children in the apartment.

Personally I would be singing from the rooftops about anything and everything that I knew, if the police had tried to frame me, i again, would be singing it from the rooftops. And I would be hanging my head in shame for having left my kids alone while I had a meal without them being properly supervised. Whilst I understand that everyone is different etc and blah, something is a bit smelly here, and they need to be fully open about it. I don't mean wringing hands wailing and nashing teeth in public, but there is something smelly.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think they have been pretty honest.

Let's face it the "Madeleine asked why we didn't come when she and the twin cried..." (words to that effect) comment hardly did them any favours.

I think if they were wanting to hide details, comments like the above would have been left out. It's hardly likely to warm people to them is it.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

SirHiss said:


> All of which were charged and found guilty relatively quickly, all of whom leaving huge trails of evidence behind them, nothing was circumstantial in any of those cases, all of whom I believe also confessed to each killing or having played a part in each one. Again so much more to those cases than the media put out, or were allowed to.
> 
> In the end no matter how much money you have does not save you, so I fail to see how it is relevant.
> 
> ...


No she won't because if the truth come to light then it will be returned that she is dead

Also it's not just the money, it's the connections
The parents were bought back and wrapped up by politicans in a way never seen before nor since



Polimba said:


> Were they drugged? Is that a undisputed fact?


No, the parents suggested that possibly the abductur had drugged the children Gerry McCann talks about sedatives (BBC Panorama 19/11/07) - YouTube (is one incidence)
but denied the children having drugs test until two months after the incident when all traces of sedatives would have gone
Note Gerry Mccanns body language when the question is raised here
Kate & Gerry McCann&#39;s answer regarding sedatives - YouTube



chichi said:


> This is six years on and still no charges brought. Don't you think that something would have come to light by now, if the McCanns actually did physically harm or dispose of their Daughter.
> 
> And no I didn't defend the murderers, etc., because there was evidence from the off....
> 
> ...


There is evidence about the Mccanns that has been there from the off

The shutters that they claimed the abducter had come in and out of then quickly changed the story when police said they hadnt been tampered with

Two seperate and infallible police dogs finding evidence of human cadaver and human blood in both the apartment and the rented vehicle

the fact that they wouldnt let the police have access to their phone records and when handing over his phoen Gerry deleted all of his SMS

That is without all the behavioral discrepancies, who having lost a child then leaves the other two to go on press junkets? 
Why did they never actually search for Madeleine themselves?
Why did kate not answer any of the questions to the police
Why is there behaviour and body language consistently nothing like the 'average' behaviour of a parent experiencing loss 
Publicly agreeing to a polygraph test then changing their minds (not that I believe they should be admissable at all)


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Babycham - what is the average reaction to your child disappearing? Doubt I would have been able to speak at all as would have had to be sedated to zombie state


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

chichi said:


> I think they have been pretty honest.
> 
> Let's face it the "Madeleine asked why we didn't come when she and the twin cried..." (words to that effect) comment hardly did them any favours.
> 
> I think if they were wanting to hide details, comments like the above would have been left out. It's hardly likely to warm people to them is it.


Yes, but when they first said about them crying they used it as another option to what happened, they said they were crying the night before, maybe someone was there.

I think innocent people do not create a whole scenario of what has happened themselves, they look to the police to tell them.

If a toddler is missing, why say abducted? Why not think she may have opened an already open door and come looking for her mum and dad first?

Also why wash Maddie's cuddle cat right away, washing the smell of her away and not forgetting, if there was an intruder, as she thought, washing away any evidence of them too.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Babycham - what is the average reaction to your child disappearing? Doubt I would have been able to speak at all as would have had to be sedated to zombie state


tears, frustration, clinging to your other children and or partner

Not planning press junkets and talking calmly on TV
remember the way she referred to that awful incident on panaroma
with a swish of the hand and a click?

Kate McCann on BBC Panorama (19/11/07) - YouTube





What mother would talk about the disappearance of their child, the single worst thing that could have ever happened to them in that manner!!

The admitted to sleeping normally again 5 days after!!! 5 days, I know people with cats that have gone missing that havent slept for weeks!!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Polimba said:


> Were they drugged? Is that a undisputed fact?





DoodlesRule said:


> And the evidence/proof they were drugged is .............. ?
> 
> I don't think you could get a more vitriolic reaction then to say they murdered their own daughter and hid her body


Sorry, I should have been clearer. 

The question as I understood it was 'why do people in general keep going on about money'. As I understand it there is a widespread belief among people in general (from reading in the newspapers, rightly or wrongly) that on the night of her abduction she had been given sleep medication by her parents. If you are interested in psychology (as I am), then it's not hard to see that people who take against the McCanns will swiftly make the mental link, rightly or wrongly, that they were well off but didn't want the expense of childcare, so drugged their kids to sleep instead. And once such a mental connection is made, breaking it can be difficult. That's all.

Julesky, thanks for the link, but I still can't see that Kate says anywhere they shouldn't have left Maddie and the twins alone all those nights? I admit I don't have children, but 'I wish we'd never left them alone' would seem to be a natural thing for a parent to say in these circumstances, especially in the immedate aftermath? I'm not saying they killed her, or that they tried to cover up finding her dead, just that I find it disappointing they don't appear to think leaving three young children alone wasn't an irresponsible thing to do.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

It's going round that the E-fit looks a lot like Gerry McCann,


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

babycham2002 said:


> No she won't because if the truth come to light then it will be returned that she is dead
> 
> Also it's not just the money, it's the connections
> The parents were bought back and wrapped up by politicans in a way never seen before nor since
> ...


Cadaver odour can stay on clothes and personal items for weeks/months I'd imagine Gerry Mccann being in contact with the dead almost certainly daily, come to think of it Kate Mccann too as a GP you can get called out to certify a dead body.

Kate Mccann I am lead to believe did send her childrens hair off for testing, drugs can stay evident on hair for years, the tests came back negative.

Again media propaganda and conspiracy theories, if they were so far into politicians pockets why did a new investigation take 6 years?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

cloversmum said:


> It's going round that the E-fit looks a lot like Gerry McCann,


No surprises there then. Along with the "Kate washed the curtains" theory and a hundred other theories that put Kate and Gerry in the frame.....


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> Sorry, I should have been clearer.
> 
> The question as I understood it was 'why do people in general keep going on about money'. As I understand it there is a widespread belief among people in general (from reading in the newspapers, rightly or wrongly) that on the night of her abduction she had been given sleep medication by her parents. If you are interested in psychology (as I am), then it's not hard to see that people who take against the McCanns will swiftly make the mental link, rightly or wrongly, that they were well off but didn't want the expense of childcare, so drugged their kids to sleep instead. And once such a mental connection is made, breaking it can be difficult. That's all.
> 
> Julesky, thanks for the link, but I still can't see that Kate says anywhere they shouldn't have left Maddie and the twins alone all those nights? I admit I don't have children, but 'I wish we'd never left them alone' would seem to be a natural thing for a parent to say in these circumstances, especially in the immedate aftermath? I'm not saying they killed her, or that they tried to cover up finding her dead, just that I find it disappointing they don't appear to think leaving three young children alone wasn't an irresponsible thing to do.


Fair dos!
I haven't read nearly half the articles or the book- maybe they do say it??

Re: the drugs before bed- there was another rumour saying someone may have drugged her in the hotel day crèche where she was during the day- I recall them saying she came back out of sorts at the time?!- again this is all media...

But repeatedly childrens clubs/ nurseries/schools- these are places pedophiles operate from.

I dunno, like everyone here I guess I just care about the child- I truly hope and think they had nothing to do with it and even moreso I hope that someday this case is solved. It's very emotive.

Those wee video clips they played of the kids before bed etc with Madeleine and her siblings were so sad. She looked such a happy wee soul


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## AnnC (Apr 18, 2009)

bird said:


> never once have the McCann said that they wished or they shouldn't have done this.


So are we judge and jury? Do the McCann's owe us an explanation?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

AnnC said:


> So are we judge and jury? Do the McCann's owe us an explanation?


They are entering our house daily at the moment via the media , so maybe they do


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

AnnC said:


> So are we judge and jury? Do the McCann's owe us an explanation?


Yes, they do! Millions of people have donated money to help find their 'abducted' daughter so yes, they should give an explanation.

I hope with all my heart that the team that are working on this case eventually crack it! 
I do think they were involved.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

What do the McCanns need to explain? They have explained everything they know.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> What do the McCanns need to explain? They have explained everything they know.


so they say


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## AnnC (Apr 18, 2009)

In what way does that give us the right to an explanation?
If people wish to give a donation then thats done by their free will and choice. It does not buy them or us anything, least of all an explanation.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

cloversmum said:


> It's going round that the E-fit looks a lot like Gerry McCann,


It's fair to mention that people have actually rang up the crimewatch help desk, naming him as the person in the E-fit 

People sending abuse to them last night over twitter.

What a waste of time, money and resources.

Do people really have nothing better to do?


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

babycham2002 said:


> tears, frustration, clinging to your other children and or partner
> 
> Not planning press junkets and talking calmly on TV
> remember the way she referred to that awful incident on panaroma
> ...


That video is interesting, it shows how much they have lied to the police and the media, she said Gerry had just been in, but now it seems the 'window' is larger as no one had actually been in to check on them.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Fair dos!
> I haven't read nearly half the articles or the book- maybe they do say it??
> 
> Re: the drugs before bed- there was another rumour saying someone may have drugged her in the hotel day crèche where she was during the day- I recall them saying she came back out of sorts at the time?!- again this is all media...
> ...


To be honest, I'm not obsessive enough over the case to read everything, either - the psychology interests me, that's all, aside from feeling sorry for Maddie of course. But I am a computer geek and a highy skilled Google searcher, and so far I haven't managed to find any mentions of them saying anything along those lines.  And to me that's the main stumbling block preventing me having much sympathy for them. I'm not interested in lengthy explanations of how, who, what, why, where and when - just in them being honest enough to admit straight up that leaving their kids alone contributed to Maddie's disappearance, or at least that it wasn't sensible in hindsight. That could be or have been made in any manner from calm and collected admission to with tears and histrionics, but the fact that they haven't seemed capable of such an admission is what bothers me more than anything else, personally.



Julesky said:


> I dunno, like everyone here I guess I just care about the child- I truly hope and think they had nothing to do with it and even moreso I hope that someday this case is solved. It's very emotive.
> 
> Those wee video clips they played of the kids before bed etc with Madeleine and her siblings were so sad. She looked such a happy wee soul


So do I, but I doubt we will ever know what happened. Poor lass...


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> Cadaver odour can stay on clothes and personal items for weeks/months I'd imagine Gerry Mccann being in contact with the dead almost certainly daily, come to think of it Kate Mccann too as a GP you can get called out to certify a dead body.


As a GP you do not attend to the dead daily, I have a few GP friends who are not in contact with the dead daily.

How did it get into the boot of a car?


----------



## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> As a GP you do not attend to the dead daily, I have a few GP friends who are not in contact with the dead daily.
> 
> How did it get into the boot of a car?


true, even the police don't get called out very often and if its the case of a dead body you would call emergency services and police deal with it. My husband is part of the response team (who would go to these calls) and in 3 years has only been to a couple of call outs.

I think on the whole the bit that gets most people's goat up is the fact that as mentioned earlier, at no point do they ever admit they were wrong for leaving her. If they were a bit more humble people would feel a bit more for them.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> As a GP you do not attend to the dead daily, I have a few GP friends who are not in contact with the dead daily.
> 
> How did it get into the boot of a car?


May not be daily but you do tend to the dead, it's part of your duty to do so in regards to people that have passed away at home, which happens frequently.

I have no idea how it got into the boot of the car and don't want to speculate, but then again, I don't believe everything I read, or everything that gets reported in the press.



WelshOneEmma said:


> true, even the police don't get called out very often and if its the case of a dead body you would call emergency services and police deal with it. My husband is part of the response team (who would go to these calls) and in 3 years has only been to a couple of call outs.
> 
> I think on the whole the bit that gets most people's goat up is the fact that as mentioned earlier, at no point do they ever admit they were wrong for leaving her. If they were a bit more humble people would feel a bit more for them.


When my partners mother died, the police weren't even involved, yet her GP was.

Not every death is an emergency situation, people do die at home, to perfectly natural causes.


----------



## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> As a GP you do not attend to the dead daily, I have a few GP friends who are not in contact with the dead daily.
> 
> How did it get into the boot of a car?


A dog alerting cannot be used as evidence there has to be corroborating evidence. It doesn't say who the odour has come from and how long ago. It's also transferrable. I understand in the Shannon Matthew's case he cadaver dog alerted but it turned out it was a second hand sofa that had come from a house where there had been a death.

So there could be all manner all explanations.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> Not every death is an emergency situation, people do die at home, to perfectly natural causes.


On the whole GP's are not bothered with it and even though it is not an emergency there are others and not GP's who come on the whole.

Anyway, Kate wasn't back at her job.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh so they found that a dead body had been in their boot? Was it their car or a rental? 
Im guessing they wouldnt have taken their own car all that way 

Secondly why on earth would they smell of dead bodies why they were on holiday? 

Im sorry but im really confused by this.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

AnnC said:


> In what way does that give us the right to an explanation?
> If people wish to give a donation then thats done by their free will and choice. It does not buy them or us anything, least of all an explanation.


So about all the policing time then? Who pays for that? The McCanns???


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

SirHiss said:


> It's fair to mention that people have actually rang up the crimewatch help desk, naming him as the person in the E-fit
> 
> People sending abuse to them last night over twitter.
> 
> ...


This is so so sad and very wrong, I can't imagine how this family all feel and until the case is cracked people shouldn't assume. I wonder how all these sick narrow minded people would act if it was their daughter who went missing. It is just pure evil, everyone should try and help solve the case not accuse people.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> So about all the policing time then? Who pays for that? The McCanns???


I'm sure the reasonable tax payer wouldn't begrudge the investigation into the disappearance of a 3 year old child.


----------



## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Oh so they found that a dead body had been in their boot? Was it their car or a rental?
> Im guessing they wouldnt have taken their own car all that way
> 
> Secondly why on earth would they smell of dead bodies why they were on holiday?
> ...


I'm by no means an expert but this is how I understand it and sorry if it's a bit gory. Cadaver dogs are used to sniff out decomposing human remains, the odour they can smell only starts about 90 minutes after death and wouldn't be noticeable to a human. They are not always reliable and give false positives or false negatives. Also the odour is transferable, so you could have been in a room with a deceased person and the odour would transfer to your clothes, a cadaver dog might pick this up some time later.

They can pick up the scent of any decomposition, so it could be a tooth for example, not a whole body. That's why they are used as guide where to look for evidence, not actual evidence.

The car was a rental and I think it was some weeks after she disappeared that they hired the car.


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DKDREAM said:


> This is so so sad and very wrong, I can't imagine how this family all feel and until the case is cracked people shouldn't assume. I wonder how all these sick narrow minded people would act if it was their daughter who went missing. It is just pure evil, everyone should try and help solve the case not accuse people.


Absolutely.

Talk about trolling and bullying and all the rest- whatever. Sickens me to the core that people bother with this , with what evidence- Newspaper snippets NONE of which we have heard anymore about. The press LOVE a story- is it any coincidence that the leverhulm or whatever the big press enquiry was and the now LACK of these BS stories/theories/portugese police reports?

I think not.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I'm sure the reasonable tax payer wouldn't begrudge the investigation into the disappearance of a 3 year old child.


And what about all the other missing children? Are the less important?


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> On the whole GP's are not bothered with it and even though it is not an emergency there are others and not GP's who come on the whole.
> 
> Anyway, Kate wasn't back at her job.


A GP will attend just in case someone can be saved, even if a very small possibility. Without a GP tending to someone who has died, you wouldn't be able to obtain a death certificate, only a doctor can sign one of those.

Kate Mccann I believe did return to work a year after the twins were born.


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

SirHiss said:


> A GP will attend just in case someone can be saved, even if a very small possibility. Without a GP tending to someone who has died, you wouldn't be able to obtain a death certificate, only a doctor can sign one of those.
> 
> Kate Mccann I believe did return to work a year after the twins were born.


Yes, I believe when my Uncle died (during the night - died in his sleep) they had to wait for the GP to come and declare him dead, sort out the death certificate, etc., before they could get the Undertaker to take him to the Chapel of Rest.


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DT said:


> And what about all the other missing children? Are the less important?


You can't blame Kate and Gerry for other missing kids not being kept in the limelight, as Madeleine is. She is only so much in the limelight because her parents will not let it drop (don't blame them - I would be the same). There was nothing to stop other parents of other missing children doing exactly the same as the McCanns.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> And what about all the other missing children? Are the less important?


Is there any evidence to suggest that the disappearance of any child has not been investigated by the police?


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

chichi said:


> Yes, I believe when my Uncle died (during the night - died in his sleep) they had to wait for the GP to come and declare him dead, sort out the death certificate, etc., before they could get the Undertaker to take him to the Chapel of Rest.


Actually there's a report saying they were in contact with 6 bodies pre-holiday- one would assume this was followed up. Also timeline- when/how/did they conceal / dispose of body post madeleine being gone- are all 9 of the pals in on it??? C'mon!!!!


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DT said:


> So about all the policing time then? Who pays for that? The McCanns???


The Tax Payer pays for all sorts of Policing that I personally find unimportant/not worthy. However, a missing three year old is very important to most human beings and if there is a chance that the latest investigation leads to Madeleine, one way or another, then it is worth it imho.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Is there any evidence to suggest that the disappearance of any child has not been investigated by the police?


I am fully aware that a case is never truely closed until it is solved, The McCanns have relentlessly campaigned in their quest to find Maddie, Much of this has been due to their fundraising but shouldn't the parents of ANY missing child be privaliged to the same coverage?


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DT said:


> I am fully aware that a case is never truely closed until it is solved, The McCanns have relentlessly campaigned in their quest to find Maddie, Much of this has been due to their fundraising but shouldn't the parents of ANY missing child be privaliged to the same coverage?


Nothing stopping other parents of missing children setting up fundraising, in order to keep the investigation in the public eye.


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> I am fully aware that a case is never truely closed until it is solved, The McCanns have relentlessly campaigned in their quest to find Maddie, Much of this has been due to their fundraising but shouldn't the parents of ANY missing child be privaliged to the same coverage?


Is it state the obvious day?- yes, obviously - but this thread is entitled Madeleine McCann....


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> The Tax Payer pays for all sorts of Policing that I personally find unimportant/not worthy. However, a missing three year old is very important to most human beings and if there is a chance that the latest investigation leads to Madeleine, one way or another, then it is worth it imho.


Yes! and other parents probably feel the same, but you name me one other missing child apart from Ben Needham that gets the amount of coverage that maddie does!


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

chichi said:


> Yes, I believe when my Uncle died (during the night - died in his sleep) they had to wait for the GP to come and declare him dead, sort out the death certificate, etc., before they could get the Undertaker to take him to the Chapel of Rest.


Same with my partners mother, waited a few hours for the doctor to arrive, then a few more hours after that for the undertakers to arrive, on the phone to the undertakers the death certificate was the first thing that was asked about, whether we had obtained one.

You cannot get anything done without one and only a doctor can issue one.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Is it state the obvious day?- yes, obviously - but this thread is entitled Madeleine McCann....


Are you trying to stifle me having an opinion?
Excuse me! but who are you?

and my remark relating to other missing children were valid!


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Polimba said:


> I'm by no means an expert but this is how I understand it and sorry if it's a bit gory. Cadaver dogs are used to sniff out decomposing human remains, the odour they can smell only starts about 90 minutes after death and wouldn't be noticeable to a human. They are not always reliable and give false positives or false negatives. Also the odour is transferable, so you could have been in a room with a deceased person and the odour would transfer to your clothes, a cadaver dog might pick this up some time later.
> 
> They can pick up the scent of any decomposition, so it could be a tooth for example, not a whole body. That's why they are used as guide where to look for evidence, not actual evidence.
> 
> The car was a rental and I think it was some weeks after she disappeared that they hired the car.


Yes, i know that ...but surely they had washed their clothes...or maybe never came into contact with the dead when they were wearing their holiday clothes. 
Surely the smell would be able to be washed off and surely after being away for several days and having i assume more than a dozen showers (considering the amount of sport they were involved in while on holiday, being in the pool also etc etc etc) would wash away that smell?

So how on earth did it get in the boot?


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DT said:


> Yes! and other parents probably feel the same, but you name me one other missing child apart from Ben Needham that gets the amount of coverage that maddie does!


But do the parents of the other missing children put themselves out there for public dissection and raise the funds that the McCanns do, in order to keep Madeleine in the public eye.

It would be far easier for the McCanns to accept Madeleine is gone and move on, rather than having themselves kept in the public eye, being ripped to shreds and accused of awful things by people who will just not accept that their "crime" was stupidity and not murder or disposing of a body.


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Yes! and other parents probably feel the same, but you name me one other missing child apart from Ben Needham that gets the amount of coverage that maddie does!


Name me one tragedy in the world going on that the daily mail online is covering- instead of hilary clinton as top story..

The media is the MOST powerful tool here and no-one can make the media choose what the cover.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Name me one tragedy in the world going on that the daily mail online is covering- instead of hilary clinton as top story..
> 
> The media is the MOST powerful tool here and no-one can make the media choose what the cover.


Diana, Princess of Wales!


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Are you trying to stifle me having an opinion?
> Excuse me! but who are you?
> 
> and my remark relating to other missing children were valid!


You asked a question. I answered.

I am 'julesky' (says so at the top left! of my post)

I saw nothing valid in reference to missing madeleine by asking if other children are not important.

Instead I saw a comment i wished to respond to.

If you feel stifled then fair enough.


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Diana, Princess of Wales!


What????? (excessive question marks- post required ten characters)


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> Yes! and other parents probably feel the same, but you name me one other missing child apart from Ben Needham that gets the amount of coverage that maddie does!


At the time of their disappearances: 
Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman
Tia Sharp
Jamie Bulger
Sarah Payne 
Milly Dowler
April Jones

These were all missing children. These cases all received round the clock media coverage and the nation were united in their hope for them to be found. The parents of said children campaigned tirelessly and were put in the spot light by the media.

Sadly as we all know, all of these children were later discovered to have been murdered. However if their bodies had not been found or someone had not been charged with their murder, they would *not* have been forgotten by the general public.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Name me one tragedy in the world going on that the daily mail online is covering- instead of hilary clinton as top story..
> 
> The media is the MOST powerful tool here and no-one can make the media choose what the cover.





Julesky said:


> What????? (excessive question marks- post required ten characters)


You asked me to name a tragedy in the world that were on going in the daily FAIL!

I did that with Diana Princess of Wales! why the excessive question marks?

edited to add!!! I don't believe the Diana Consipiry theory by the way!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> At the time of their disappearances:
> Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman
> Tia Sharp
> Jamie Bulger
> ...


and the murderers those children were brought to justice! NOTE! I said murderers!


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> You asked me to name a tragedy in the world that were on going in the daily FAIL!
> 
> I did that with Diana Princess of Wales! why the excessive question marks?


Excessive question marks were answered in the post silly sausage!

Oh right re: HRH Diana.

I should have said current world tragedy.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

bearcub said:


> At the time of their disappearances:
> Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman
> Tia Sharp
> Jamie Bulger
> ...


Maybe leanne tiernan could be added to that list. Dont know how much coverage outside leeds/west yorkshire she got. but would be keen to know if she is on the same level of those above.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Excessive question marks were answered in the post silly sausage!
> 
> Oh right re: HRH Diana.
> 
> I should have said current world tragedy.


I think i' going to lay this one to rest!
As you rightly suggest the media have a a great deal to answer to!
9/11
Diane
Maddie

I sincerely hope they find maddy alive and well as do many others!
BUT! Im not going to hold my breathe on that one!


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> and the murderers those children were brought to justice! NOTE! I said murderers!


I've no idea what you mean by that 

If someone is, in the future, charged with the murder of Madeleine McCann, they will be brought to justice too, surely?


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> I think i' going to lay this one to rest!
> As you rightly suggest the media have a a great deal to answer to!
> 9/11
> Diane
> ...


Me too!

Maybe we'll never know, maybe we will.

The jury's out!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> At the time of their disappearances:
> Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman
> Tia Sharp
> Jamie Bulger
> ...


and just to add, the murderers of those children were all found within what they call the 'window' time! OR at the very least the suspects were suspects in that time!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Me too!
> 
> Maybe we'll never know, maybe we will.
> 
> The jury's out!


Well! I for one genuinely do hope that I am proved wrong


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

April Jones's body hasn't been found


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Robnsacha said:


> Maybe leanne tiernan could be added to that list. Dont know how much coverage outside leeds/west yorkshire she got. but would be keen to know if she is on the same level of those above.


Apologies; I wasn't aiming at it being a comprehensive list. I couldn't say how much coverage outside of Yorkshire she got as I lived in North Yorkshire at the time of her murder. I remember the media coverage well.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I've no idea what you mean by that
> 
> If someone is, in the future, charged with the murder of Madeleine McCann, they will be brought to justice too, surely?


Well yes! of course.


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> April Jones's body hasn't been found


I know; I didn't state that she had been found.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> April Jones's body hasn't been found


No but a bone fragment was found in a fire, the house was oqned by the guy who i believe is now in prison for her murder?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> April Jones's body hasn't been found


I understand that just bone fragments were????


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

bearcub said:


> I know; I didn't state that she had been found.


I know you didn't - just saying  and yes someone's been convicted for her murder, but still no body for her family


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> and just to add, the murderers of those children were all found within what they call the 'window' time! OR at the very least the suspects were suspects in that time!


Regardless of the facts surrounding the murders of these children, I am simply pointing out that comparing one missing child to another is pointless. The case of Madeleine McCann remains unsolved, therefore it will naturally recieve more press coverage. However, that's not to say that at the time of her disappearance, it received more than any of the cases mentioned above.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Regardless of the facts surrounding the murders of these children, I am simply pointing out that comparing one missing child to another is pointless. The case of Madeleine McCann remains unsolved, therefore it will naturally recieve more press coverage. However, that's not to say that at the time of her disappearance, it received more than any of the cases mentioned above.


I was referring to the children that have gone missing over the years (over 500) that have NOT been found! The ones we seldom hear of! the forgotton ones! or the less important ones maybe!

Each year, 275,000 Britons go missing! albeit by no means are we talking children here! but a missing person is a missing person to someone!


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> I know you didn't - just saying  and yes someone's been convicted for her murder, but still no body for her family


It's incomprehensible what her parents have been through. And now they will most likely never know the truth.

But what can we expect of Mark Bridger, how can the murderer of a child possibly have the moral integrity left to tell the truth of where her body could be found?


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

bearcub said:


> But what can we expect of Mark Bridger, how can the murderer of a child possibly have the moral integrity left to tell the truth of where her body could be found?


Horrible man, not nice in the flesh at all...


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> I was referring to the children that have gone missing over the years (over 500) that have NOT been found! The ones we seldom hear of! the forgotton ones! or the less important ones maybe!


Why do you think Madeleine is viewed on as 'more' important than any other child?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Horrible man, not nice in the flesh at all...


I think even the 'dumbest' amongst us would agree on that!


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

GUYS HAS ANYONE READ THIS??

News of new information came as The Mirror reported that a witness admitted to a barrister that he had met the missing girl on a Mediterranean island just weeks ago.

The unnamed barrister said he spoke to the witness at a party in August and was stunned at the level of detail he gave about Maddie. The barrister said he has since given a full statement to police.

"I knew that by reporting it, it would *compromise me in all sorts of ways. But it was something that I couldn't ignore. If I hadn't said anything I couldn't have lived with myself," he told the paper.

"I have told the police *everything that I was told about her.

"They know what that was and that is why they have acted. I was able to be a bit more specific than just the island but I haven't been able to tell them exactly where the man said she was. I am now terrified that she has been moved elsewhere

from this webpage..
Missing Madeleine McCann's parents 'encouraged' by new inquiry | News.com.au


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Why do you think Madeleine is viewed on as 'more' important than any other child?


The reconstruction last night maybe?

Did we have a reconstruction for Ben? maybe we did


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> I think even the 'dumbest' amongst us would agree on that!


So you know people that have had the sad task of being involved in the April Jones case then?, who have had to interview that man time and time again?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> GUYS HAS ANYONE READ THIS??
> 
> News of new information came as The Mirror reported that a witness admitted to a barrister that he had met the missing girl on a Mediterranean island just weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Yep! heard about that, before all of this was dragged up again! Not read your link but did they not arrest him??


----------



## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Yep! heard about that, before all of this was dragged up again! Not read your link but did they not arrest him??


I don't know!!! Gotta go do some housework/dog stroll etc. Will keep an eye on- night all!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> I don't know!!! Gotta go do some housework/dog stroll etc. Will keep an eye on- night all!


Nice Julessky xxx
Love a good debate when we can all call it a day and start again tomorrow
Sleep tight
xx


----------



## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

Can we avoid personal insults and keep the thread on track, so it doesn't need to be closed please.


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Julesky said:


> GUYS HAS ANYONE READ THIS??
> 
> News of new information came as The Mirror reported that a witness admitted to a barrister that he had met the missing girl on a Mediterranean island just weeks ago.
> 
> ...


I read that the other day but according to Sky News Manchester police have discounted this version of events and arrested this man on a drugs charge that was nothing to do with Madeleine.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

The photofit picture that was shown last night!
Who does this look like?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> The photofit picture that was shown last night!
> Who does this look like?


It looks like Gerry McCann to those who want to believe it does.

The second one looks more like Chris Moyles to me. Doesn't mean he had anything to do with Maddie's disappearance.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> It looks like Gerry McCann to those who want to believe it does.
> 
> The second one looks more like Chris Moyles to me. Doesn't mean he had anything to do with Maddie's disappearance.


I never said it looked like Gerry McCann! I merely asked who it looked like!
you said it doesn't mean he he had anything to do with maddies disappearance! Did I suggest he had?


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> I merely asked who it liked like!


Can you stop speaking DT for a while?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Can you stop speaking DT for a while?


Who rattled your cage?


----------



## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> I never said it looked like Gerry McCann! I merely asked who it liked like!
> you said it doesn't mean he he had anything to do with maddies disappearance! Did I suggest he had?


What Chris Moyles?

I made the assumption that you would infer that Gerry McCann was the man behind the efit.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> What Chris Moyles?
> 
> I made the assumption that you would infer that Gerry McCann was the man behind the efit.


No actually! TBH is never hit me! but someone else mentioned it to me , and just wanted a spontaneous response as to whether anyone else were of the same opinion WITHOUT being prompted! which alas you did! So my exercise was pointless!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> Who rattled your cage?


I just thought it might actually help you get your point across if what you wrote was legible?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> No actually! TBH is never hit me! but someone else mentioned it to me , and just wanted a spontaneous response as to whether anyone else were of the same opinion WITHOUT being prompted! which alas you did! So my exercise was pointless!


It's already out there - somebody else posted a link from Facebook earlier in the thread, comparing Gerry McCann to the efit with something along the lines of 'doesn't take a genius'.

Apparently many numpties phoned in to crimewatch last night to state this to the police.

Anyway, what was your 'exercise' trying to prove?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> I just thought it might actually help you get your point across if what you wrote was legible?


so do you have any thoughts as to who the efit looks like Jon?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> It's already out there - somebody else posted a link from Facebook earlier in the thread, comparing Gerry McCann to the efit with something along the lines of 'doesn't take a genius'.
> 
> Apparently many numpties phoned in to crimewatch last night to state this to the police.
> 
> Anyway, what was your 'exercise' trying to prove?


So because people thought the photofits looked alike they are numpties are they?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DT said:


> So because people thought the photofits looked alike they are numpties are they?


Not for thinking that, no. There are some similarities after all.

But phoning into the crimewatch appeal to tell the police that the man in the efit looks like Gerry McCann, well that's a pretty numptyish thing to do.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> so do you have any thoughts as to who the efit looks like Jon?


Sorry, but as you've already tossed the word 'dumbest' in my direction tonight i'm not really sure i'm qualified to answer that for you...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Sorry, but as you've already tossed the word 'dumbest' in my direction tonight i'm not really sure i'm qualified to answer that for you...


Well if the cap fits! I suspected earlier you wanted this thread closed, the mods have already requested we keep this on track, yet you continue to drag up things that have been deleted!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> Well if the cap fits! I suspected earlier you wanted this thread closed, the mods have already requested we keep this on track, yet you continue to drag up things that have been deleted!


Quit whining and debate the matter in hand then...i don't want the thread closed...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Quit whining and debate the matter in hand then...i don't want the thread closed...


Pot calling kettle Jon!
People only have to read back your previous posts to see exactly who is 'whining'
you are the one failing to debate! Not I.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> Pot calling kettle Jon!
> People only have to read back your previous posts to see exactly who is 'whining'
> you are the one failing to debate! Not I.


The efits are a joke, the 'reconstruction' was a joke and they will never find Maddy alive or dead...although on that last point i would liked to be proven wrong one way or the other...

There, you can put your big spoon away now


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> The efits are a joke, the 'reconstruction' was a joke and they will never find Maddy alive or dead...although on that last point i would liked to be proven wrong one way or the other...
> 
> There, you can put your big spoon away now


I think the majority would prefer to find maddie safe and well Jon, so that's a no brainer really!

and my wooden spoon bears no comparison to your oar!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> and my wooden spoon bears no comparison to your oar!


I never said it was wooden?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> I never said it was wooden?


Just thought it best I verified


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> Just thought it best I verified


Amazing...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Amazing...


I know!  you are not the first to tell me.
goodnight Jon


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Not for thinking that, no. There are some similarities after all.
> 
> But phoning into the crimewatch appeal to tell the police that the man in the efit looks like Gerry McCann, well that's a pretty numptyish thing to do.


There are two ways of looking at this maybe
Either the person whom compiled the photofit did see a person resembling Gerry McCann.

Or maybe they like many had drawn who they 'believed' (maybe from what they had read) whom they thought was responsible! IF that was the case the yes, I'll agree with you they are a numpty!

so we have option one 
or option two

back to square one really I guess!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

DT said:


> I know!  you are not the first to tell me.


I have to say, you and your high horse do not sit very well in this thread...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> I have to say, you and your high horse do not sit very well in this thread...


And who are you to judge?


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I can't understand how someone can remember information from sixuyears ago I can't remember what I had for tea last week let alone events from six years ago to recall to the police or a to do a photo fit


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2013)

It's also being said the E-Fit also bares a striking resemblance to Matthew Oldfield, who was one of the Tapas 7.



















So while it's very easy to throw around the E-fit resembles Gerry Mccann, it's also very easy to say it could also be someone else.


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## uniresearch (Oct 9, 2013)

SirHiss said:


> It's also being said the E-Fit also bares a striking resemblance to Matthew Oldfield, who was one of the Tapas 7.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree, I think the e-fit on the left looks like Jerry, and the one on the right looks like Matthew.

Ohhhh and the plot does thicken, doesn't it? Inside job, anyone can see that!


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

uniresearch said:


> I disagree, I think the e-fit on the left looks like Jerry, and the one on the right looks like Matthew.
> 
> Ohhhh and the plot does thicken, doesn't it? Inside job, anyone can see that!


i think the opposite, i think the one on the left looks like matthew. But to be honest, i think everyones walked past someone and thought, oh that looks like so so and so. but isn't them.

I'm reading a page on good old faceybook now, title ' Digging for Madeline Mccann'

The body of Madeleine McCann lies buried below the Murat rear gravel driveway. After Worldwide Press coverage, Portugal refuses to excavate the driveway.

Description

In July 2012, South African businessman, Stephen D.Birch after 2 years of investigation and an intial cost to himself of £50 000, discovered something was buried beneath the Murat rear gravel driveway.

The driveway was build in early 2008, and is the second driveway on a property called Casa Liliana.
(YouTube: Madeleine Mccann Stephen Birch) -- The property owned by an initial suspect in the case Robert Murat, is located 130 meters/ 426 feet from holiday apartment 5A Ocean club, in Praia da Luz, Portugal. 
On the 3rd May 2007, three year old Madeleine Mc Cann disappeared from apartment 5A, and has never been seen since.

Stephen's findings made "World Headlines" in 255 mainstream newspapers around the world. 
Despite the findings and photos also appearing 18 times in Portugal's largest newspaper Correio da Manha , and Stephen petitioning Portugal's Prime Minister, and Attorney General, the Portuguese government has to date refused to dig up the Murat driveway.

5 International experts, in the use of ground penetrating radar equipment, have all examined scans taken of the Murat driveway by Stephen using a Mala ground penetrating radar machine, and have recommended excavating the driveway immediately.

Here are the expert opinions:

Ralph Baird Texas EquuSearch (USA)
"dig it up or probe it and see what is there; its a small task- the digging."

Gretchen E. Freund- UIT System (USA)
"There are anomalous features in the GPR data that may be due to remains, but whether or not the data indicates the presence of remains cannot be determined solely from the GPR data. You must dig to find out.

Michael Wolmarans, Imbila Location Services CC (South Africa)
there is a distinct sign of a void. This suggests that the ground has been disturbed by digging. Below the void there is an object, though it is not possible to say what it is without excavating. If this were my own investigation, I would have little doubt that an excavation of the area is required.

Not to sure what to think of this :|


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2013)

uniresearch said:


> I disagree, I think the e-fit on the left looks like Jerry, and the one on the right looks like Matthew.
> 
> Ohhhh and the plot does thicken, doesn't it? Inside job, anyone can see that!


The two E-Fits are supposed to be of the same man  

I know a couple of people those E-Fits could resemble, it's so, so easy to see what only you want to see.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2013)

RockRomantic said:


> i think the opposite, i think the one on the left looks like matthew. But to be honest, i think everyones walked past someone and thought, oh that looks like so so and so. but isn't them.
> 
> I'm reading a page on good old faceybook now, title ' Digging for Madeline Mccann'
> 
> ...


Now I have read about this, the man in question also has a website doesn't he? I am sure I have seen his page.

For arguments sake, I do think the Portuguese Police should dig the driveway, just to get an answer one way or another, if it turns out she is actually there and this man was right all along it will allow the investigation to take another turn, if she isn't there and this man was wrong it will just close that part of the investigation.


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## uniresearch (Oct 9, 2013)

SirHiss said:


> The two E-Fits are supposed to be of the same man
> 
> I know a couple of people those E-Fits could resemble, it's so, so easy to see what only you want to see.


I know they are supposed to be the same man, but clearly they aren't. The two e-fits are barely simliar, in my very humble opinion.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

From what I have read the sniffer dogs also indicated that there was a body there, it sounds like there were a couple of paedophiles in their party too
, and the conversation between GM and Dp was shocking
Never like GM, always thought there was something not right about him


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

SirHiss said:


> Now I have read about this, the man in question also has a website doesn't he? I am sure I have seen his page.
> 
> For arguments sake, I do think the Portuguese Police should dig the driveway, just to get an answer one way or another, if it turns out she is actually there and this man was right all along it will allow the investigation to take another turn, if she isn't there and this man was wrong it will just close that part of the investigation.


this is the first i've heard of him 

i do agree they should just dig it up, least that'll be one thing answered one way or another.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Get the diggers in...thats my view. Okay its going to be costly but at least the Murat theory can then be discounted...as this has lingered long enough.

I wonder how those who are pointing their fingers at the parents are going to feel if/when Madeleine (or her remains bless her heart) turn up and the parents are completely cleared of suspicion, once and for all.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2013)

RockRomantic said:


> this is the first i've heard of him
> 
> i do agree they should just dig it up, least that'll be one thing answered one way or another.


He has a petition going somewhere online, with quite a few signatures to it, the Portuguese press I believe support the drive being dug up, hopefully with the investigation in the spotlight it will now happen


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

SirHiss said:


> He has a petition going somewhere online, with quite a few signatures to it, the Portuguese press I believe support the drive being dug up, hopefully with the investigation in the spotlight it will now happen


yeah i've literally just found it, i hope its something theyll at least consider


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

The arm chair detectives on here are really making me laff! Next they'll be saying the local priest up at the church has something to do with it and her body lies under the floorboards of the crypt. Its getting more and more like a Miss Marple story by the day!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> The arm chair detectives on here are really making me laff! Next they'll be saying the local priest up at the church has something to do with it and her body lies under the floorboards of the crypt. Its getting more and more like a Miss Marple story by the day!


do you know I was just about to mention that!


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

DT said:


> do you know I was just about to mention that!


And the strange thing is this thread is weirdly addictive and I can't wait for the next installment.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> And the strange thing is this thread is weirdly addictive and I can't wait for the next installment.


You an me too Iheartcats, and my guess is we are in for a long running seriel
May even outrun coronation street.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Sorry, I should have been clearer.
> 
> The question as I understood it was 'why do people in general keep going on about money'. As I understand it there is a widespread belief among people in general (from reading in the newspapers, rightly or wrongly) that on the night of her abduction she had been given sleep medication by her parents. If you are interested in psychology (as I am), then it's not hard to see that people who take against the McCanns will swiftly make the mental link, rightly or wrongly, that they were well off but didn't want the expense of childcare, so drugged their kids to sleep instead. And once such a mental connection is made, breaking it can be difficult. That's all.
> 
> Julesky, thanks for the link, but I still can't see that Kate says anywhere they shouldn't have left Maddie and the twins alone all those nights? I admit I don't have children, but 'I wish we'd never left them alone' would seem to be a natural thing for a parent to say in these circumstances, especially in the immedate aftermath? I'm not saying they killed her, or that they tried to cover up finding her dead, just that I find it disappointing they don't appear to think leaving three young children alone wasn't an irresponsible thing to do.


Ah sorry I misunderstood, I understand what you mean. I find it interesting, if that's the right word, that people don't have sympathy with them because they left their children, but they have sympathy with the Needhams. I'm not sure of the circumstances of his disappearance but I understand he was 21 months old and disappeared playing near his grandpatents house. So he was also an unsupervised child who disappeared. If he had been in the house and his carers less than 100m outside would that be different? Is it the activity the carers are carrying out that make it different? I'm not putting the blame on either I'm just musing why people have such differing views when the consequences were the same.

I do wonder, and it's only my theory, that they have been advised from a psychological aspect not to say they wished they hadn't left them, by doing that they are taking some of the blame which victims of crime are advised not to do, I think someone used the analogy of walking in an unsafe area late at night. My 84 year old mum was burgled a few months ago, she kept saying it was her fault for not doubke locking the door, they kept telling her the fault lay with the criminal not her.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Polimba said:


> Ah sorry I misunderstood, I understand what you mean. I find it interesting, if that's the right word, that people don't have sympathy with them because they left their children, but they have sympathy with the Needhams. I'm not sure of the circumstances of his disappearance but I understand he was 21 months old and disappeared playing near his grandpatents house. So he was also an unsupervised child who disappeared. If he had been in the house and his carers less than 100m outside would that be different? Is it the activity the carers are carrying out that make it different? I'm not putting the blame on either I'm just musing why people have such differing views when the consequences were the same.
> 
> .


Maybe time of day bears a factor here! The Needhams grandparents were working on their home in broad daylight!

The McCanns, were out partying with friends irrespective that Maddie had only the night before asked where her parents were when the twin was crying for them!


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I think it was probably the way the Mcanns acted after Maddies disappearance that so many people have felt it was not a way most people would be after their child disappeared, that set the murder theory off, 
I know I would not have been able to walk around and talk I would probably be collapsed in a heap, inconsolable


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

chichi said:


> Get the diggers in...thats my view. Okay its going to be costly but at least the Murat theory can then be discounted...as this has lingered long enough.
> 
> I wonder how those who are pointing their fingers at the parents are going to feel if/when Madeleine (or her remains bless her heart) turn up and the parents are completely cleared of suspicion, once and for all.


TBH I would be delighted - I don't particularly like thinking that two people could have caused the death of their little child. Obviously I would prefer her to be alive and well somewhere, but failing that, finding her and laying her (and a lot of suspicions) to rest would be a relief.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> I wonder how those who are pointing their fingers at the parents are going to feel if/when Madeleine (or her remains bless her heart) turn up and the parents are completely cleared of suspicion, once and for all.


Well! I for one won't feel bad! Looking at it from any angle they would still be responsible! so OK some are proven wrong that the McCanns didn't cause her death buy ODing her with sleeping pills! BUT in my opinion it would be far far worse that the left her alone to be abducted by a paedaphile! I sure to god hope they *don't *find her under that drive! because if they do imagine the hell she would have gone through !


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I've not read all of the thread yet, just the first page... I will read it all tomorrow, but it is long 

If the McCann's didn't have anything to do with her disappearance then they have gone through a terrible tragedy... however, as far as I am concerned, they are completely at fault. She has paid the price for their stupidity. 

I heard someone on TV describe it as a 'mistake' they made by leaving their children in an apartment in a foreign country when they dined over 100 yards away... that is no mistake. A mistake isn't intentional... leaving their children in that situation WAS intentional. They knew exactly what they were doing, and they should have saw the risks. I can't imagine why anyone would think that was an appropriate course of action, AND what makes it worse is that Madeleine cried a night or two before the 3rd of May and asked her parents where they were when her and Sean woke up, crying... and yet they STILL chose to go out on the night of the 3rd... disgusting. 

My own opinion, is that they know exactly what happened to her. I don't believe it was intentional, but I do believe something happened and most likely due to them giving her something to make her sleep... whether it has been some kind of overdose or an accident that because she was in a 'doped up' state she wasn't able to get out of... I don't know, but I do believe an accident happened and caused her death... There is too much unexplained stuff, in particular the results of the cadaver dogs...


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Julesky said:


> Not slating but just want to point out....
> 
> So instead you would take two infants to a foreign country , distraught in yourself, in the middle of a major police incident, when all you can think about is getting your child back- how does that work out for those infants? Haven't they seen enough crying as well as asking where their sister is? Is it not better they are surrounded by familiarity with their relatives in a country whose first language is their mother tongue and some kind of routine at home without having to be whisked around to various police stations/ news appeals??


I really was meant to go to bed... and I decided to read a few more pages  I did notice this though, and needed to comment...

One of the things that stood out to me at the time, was that the McCann's went to Rome on their visit to the Pope... and left the twins in the Algarve... Ok, it was with... I think it was Gerry's sister, it was one of their sister I am sure, and her husband... but it wasn't home and it wasn't familiarity and in a country who speaks their first language... and it was the very place that their sister and the McCann's daughter went missing... but they flew off to Rome and left them there anyway...


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

DT said:


> Maybe time of day bears a factor here! The Needhams grandparents were working on their home in broad daylight!
> 
> The McCanns, were out partying with friends irrespective that Maddie had only the night before asked where her parents were when the twin was crying for them!


So it's ok to leave a young child unattended in daylight hours then 

I wouldn't say they were partying, they we're having a meal, however I do understand why people don't agree with their parenting decisions. I just find it a huge leap from a child crying when you go out, I used to do the same when my mum ever left me, to them being capable of some of the allegations.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

lozzibear said:


> I really was meant to go to bed... and I decided to read a few more pages  I did notice this though, and needed to comment...
> 
> One of the things that stood out to me at the time, was that the McCann's went to Rome on their visit to the Pope... and left the twins in the Algarve... Ok, it was with... I think it was Gerry's sister, it was one of their sister I am sure, and her husband... but it wasn't home and it wasn't familiarity and in a country who speaks their first language... and it was the very place that their sister and the McCann's daughter went missing... but they flew off to Rome and left them there anyway...


Yeah they did- as extremely religious people they went to the head of their church to ask for prayers- they were there for about 24 hours.

It's a tough decision- publicise/ask for prayers for your missing child at the highest level of your faith- seek comfort for the hell you imagine your child is going through

take 2 infants with you on this whistle stop journey

OR

leave them with trusted family- one would imagine under strict orders to not let them out of their sight.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't keep publicising Madeleine's disappearance.

I think in terms of rational welfare most would agree that despite instincts to keep them with you, it would not be fair to take them on this overnighter.

The concern here is, if everyone sits back and say- the parent's did it- with absolutely nae proof!!

People stop looking for her.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Polimba said:


> So it's ok to leave a young child unattended in daylight hours then
> 
> I.


I never said that so why the confusion?

I said that Ben Needham was playing in the grounds of a property his grandparents were renovating in broard daylight!

The McCanns left their children alone in that villa in pitch darkness alone !

BOTH resulted in a child being abducted! So obviously neither children were adequately supervised!

BUT! and I can only comment from my own sight , if my grandchildren were out playing on my land in daylight then I have a good change of being able to see them, Whereby I wouldn't have a chance of being able to see them in the dark.

The McCanns on the otherhand would not have a cat in hells chance of seeing what was going on in that apartment that's assuming they could even see it!

I don't believe the person has been born yet who can keep their eyes on their children 24/7 even in the home there are times children are left alone unsupervised whilst mother in cooking, cleaning etc! So yes anything could happen to any child at any time, and alas it does, but there is no comparison here!


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Yeah they did- as extremely religious people they went to the head of their church to ask for prayers- they were there for about 24 hours.
> 
> It's a tough decision- publicise/ask for prayers for your missing child at the highest level of your faith- seek comfort for the hell you imagine your child is going through
> 
> ...


I think that's what bothers me most, well there a few things that bother me. It bothers me that she's somehow not a genuine case because her parents left her. The fact that left her seems to overshadow the actual facts that she is missing and to try to find out what happened. I've said it before but they were doing something similar to what many thousands of parents do in holiday resorts and hotels. Just Google baby monitoring services and hotels, you'll see many offer a service to patrol and listen at doors. It must a service used or it wouldn't be offered. It might not be many parents' choice, but it's not illegal. I can't get to the conclusion a victim of crime is responsible for that crime, but of course others can differ.

I do think there was an element of Groupthink in their decision as well, people act differently in a group, for various reasons people go along with things for various reasons they wouldn't otherwise.

It bothers me they are seen as guilty through reading what's in the press or taking bits of evidence and 'oh they must be guilty because xyz'. It also bothers me that they believe there is something fishy because they are behaving in a way they think they wouldn't. How the heck does anyone know how they would behave in those circumstances? The counsellor who was brought in shortly after she went missing says in his statement their behaviour was within the bounds of what he would expect in the circumstances and his work with other families in similar circumstances.

I am probably obsessive about the principle of presumption of innocence until proven guilty. I would want the principal to apply to me, so it would be hypocritical not to apply that to others.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I cant understand why they left the door unlocked, also what seems strange, whoever took Maddie [if someone did] they took a risk walking through the street with a sleeping child in their arms, who might have woken up and screamed, and surely there must have been a vehicle available close by, to take them wherever, a vehicle has never been looked for as far as I can remember


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Polimba said:


> So it's ok to leave a young child unattended in daylight hours then
> 
> I wouldn't say they were partying, they we're having a meal, however I do understand why people don't agree with their parenting decisions. *I just find it a huge leap from a child crying when you go out, I used to do the same when my mum ever left me, to them being capable of some of the allegations.*


Was your mam leaving pre-school you alone or with a babysitter?

A child that young should never be left the way she was - never!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Polimba said:


> I think that's what bothers me most, well there a few things that bother me. It bothers me that she's somehow not a genuine case because her parents left her. The fact that left her seems to overshadow the actual facts that she is missing and to try to find out what happened. I've said it before but they were doing something similar to what many thousands of parents do in holiday resorts and hotels. * Just Google baby monitoring services and hotels, you'll see many offer a service to patrol and listen at doors.* It must a service used or it wouldn't be offered. It might not be many parents' choice, but it's not illegal. I can't get to the conclusion a victim of crime is responsible for that crime, but of course others can differ.
> *
> I do think there was an element of Groupthink in their decision as well, people act differently in a group,* for various reasons people go along with things for various reasons they wouldn't otherwise.
> 
> ...


Both of these comments are true - but remember, the McCanns had the opportunity to use the babysitting service offered by their resort and chose not to. Apparently they thought it worse for their child to wake up and find a strange adult, than to wake up and wander off, or to vomit and choke unattended, or to be abducted.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Both of these comments are true - but remember, the McCanns had the opportunity to use the babysitting service offered by their resort and chose not to. Apparently they thought it worse for their child to wake up and find a strange adult, than to wake up and wander off, or to vomit and choke unattended, or to be abducted.


Yes they did.

With hindsight now do you think they would have left in the first place? Do you think they would even have gone there?

The point of tragedies is that the people they happen to didn't see it coming.

Yes MANY of us here would never dream of doing that.

But they did.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Yeah they did- as extremely religious people they went to the head of their church to ask for prayers- they were there for about 24 hours.
> 
> It's a tough decision- publicise/ask for prayers for your missing child at the highest level of your faith- seek comfort for the hell you imagine your child is going through
> 
> ...


Its not a tough decision in my books - who goes to Rome "asking for prayers" when their child is missing ??? personally I would be out searching ...........


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Its not a tough decision in my books - who goes to Rome "asking for prayers" when their child is missing ??? personally I would be out searching ...........


Deeply religious catholics?

Police lead searches- and they will co-ordinate family members and volunteers as untrained people may miss clues/evidence. fact.

She's not a lost dog- she is a child... authorities decide who/how/where searches take place

You might go out searching but you would be told to stand down and let the professionals work


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm not religious at all, but my mum and my gran are...

The first place they would seek solace in any tragedy would be the church.

My gran spends pretty much all her days in church praying for various people she knows etc.

My mum does the same in between working/caring for my aunt. 


So i understand why they went.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Yeah they did- as extremely religious people they went to the head of their church to ask for prayers- they were there for about 24 hours.
> 
> It's a tough decision- publicise/ask for prayers for your missing child at the highest level of your faith- seek comfort for the hell you imagine your child is going through
> 
> ...


Fair on the kids or not, if one of mine was missing, you would need a crow bar to prise the others out my arms, especially so soon after one of them going missing  it wasn't fair on the others that they were left every night, whilst the parents enjoyed a meal, but it didn't worry them then.

I would love to have this little girl found, alive and well would be great, however I very much doubt it. I would just like the full truth, which I don't believe we are getting. I have always said that something doesn't fit right about this, I havnt a clue what it is but something smells.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Deeply religious catholics?
> 
> Police lead searches- and they will co-ordinate family members and volunteers as untrained people may miss clues/evidence. fact.
> 
> ...


I know I would still search - I would be out there - I would be working as closely with the police as possible I would want to know everything that could be done WAS being done - how could they oversee that from ROME ??

They were in a foreign country dealing with a foreign authority who would and did do things differently from UK authorities - surely their priority should have been staying put looking after the two children they were lucky enough to have and being there to help the police and search parties with any enquiries etc ........they chose not to do that .....simples - they made a bad decision


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2013)

I don't know, I really feel she is still alive (or hope anyway) - very bonny wee lass. Just hope whoever took her has cared for her and loved her!


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

AnimalObsessed said:


> I don't know, I really feel she is still alive (or hope anyway) - very bonny wee lass. Just hope whoever took her has cared for her and loved her!


I think everyone is hoping for that outcome.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2013)

bird said:


> I think everyone is hoping for that outcome.


I realize that


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I know I would still search - I would be out there - I would be working as closely with the police as possible I would want to know everything that could be done WAS being done - how could they oversee that from ROME ??
> 
> They were in a foreign country dealing with a foreign authority who would and did do things differently from UK authorities - surely their priority should have been staying put looking after the two children they were lucky enough to have and being there to help the police and search parties with any enquiries etc ........they chose not to do that .....simples


Hi!

See if you read the next bit about people with deep religious faith you may understand why they did that- because they believe and have faith in a higher being...... not everyone thinks the same , I am really saddened by people saying what/how they would react, how they would be out searching- i hope you never have to find out.

Is there no compassion left in the world?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I know I would still search - I would be out there - I would be working as closely with the police as possible I would want to know everything that could be done WAS being done - *how could they oversee that from ROME ??*
> 
> They were in a foreign country dealing with a foreign authority who would and did do things differently from UK authorities - surely their priority should have been staying put looking after the two children they were lucky enough to have and being there to help the police and search parties with any enquiries etc ........they chose not to do that .....simples - they made a bad decision


We have mobile phones, internet and video conference technology. They were there less than 24 hours.

It was a faith decision- very hard for people without it to understand unless you've been around people with faith- i get it even though i'm not religious- i wouldn't act the same, but i understand why they did.

Try and see the world from someone else's view. Someone with major believe in a divine all powerful/knowing being.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Is there no compassion left in the world?


Of course there is compassion. We would all love for no one to ever have to lose a child, whether it be through being taken by force or by illness, and yes we all would act differently. But, taking the flight to Rome as an instance (leaving everything else out) however deeply devout you are (and I was once) I tell you now, if this had happened to one of the girls and I had been offered prayers and a meeting with the Pope but couldn't take the remaining child with me, I would not have gone.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Julesky said:


> We have mobile phones, internet and video conference technology. They were there less than 24 hours.
> 
> It was a faith decision- very hard for people without it to understand unless you've been around people with faith- i get it even though i'm not religious- i wouldn't act the same, but i understand why they did.
> 
> Try and see the world from someone else's view. Someone with major believe in a divine all powerful/knowing being.


The thing is though, if you believe in the one divine power, you also believe he hears the prayers anywhere in the world, so you don't need to up and leave to go and see the pope. They could have prayed in any church.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> The thing is though, if you believe in the one divine power, you also believe he hears the prayers anywhere in the world, so you don't need to up and leave to go and see the pope. They could have prayed in any church.


True and they did- but the Pope is the like the hand of God- if yu believe in all that and want help- and have chance to get the help you need, then why not?

I'm just saying we cannot say what we'd do- some of us might have a mental breakdown, others breakdown into robot- maybe they couldn't bear to look at the other children - knowing they were responsibe for Madeleine being taken....

The human emotion is so vast/varied- it is so easy for us resting on our laurels to say how we would react- but how would we really- you can't say.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

bird said:


> Of course there is compassion. We would all love for no one to ever have to lose a child, whether it be through being taken by force or by illness, and yes we all would act differently. But, taking the flight to Rome as an instance (leaving everything else out) however deeply devout you are (and I was once) I tell you now, if this had happened to one of the girls and I had been offered prayers and a meeting with the Pope but couldn't take the remaining child with me, *I* would not have gone.


Yes, you would not have. They did.

We are all different


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Julesky said:


> True and they did- but the Pope is the like the hand of God- if yu believe in all that and want help- and have chance to get the help you need, then why not?
> 
> I'm just saying we cannot say what we'd do- some of us might have a mental breakdown, others breakdown into robot- maybe they couldn't bear to look at the other children - knowing they were responsibe for Madeleine being taken....
> 
> The human emotion is so vast/varied- it is so easy for us resting on our laurels to say how we would react- but how would we really- you can't say.


True, but most people wouldn't recruit a spin doctor on the disappearance of our child!!!1


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> True, but most people wouldn't recruit a spin doctor on the disappearance of our child!!!1


Aye- but the press mauled them? Don't you remember- they wanted the child found, there was no Leveson enquiry at the time- you disagree with the press and they can destroy you..

Say she's out there and they are wrongly accused. Sorting out the media requires money and someone savvy - they got that. Because they were needing to find her...

Like i said a few comments ago- this all distarcts from finding her- the continued rhetoric of the parents' guilt and responsibility for leaving them alone... where is she? who took her?


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Both of these comments are true - but remember, the McCanns had the opportunity to use the babysitting service offered by their resort and chose not to. Apparently they thought it worse for their child to wake up and find a strange adult, than to wake up and wander off, or to vomit and choke unattended, or to be abducted.


Yes you are absolutely right, I believe the childcare facilities were either a baby sitter or the night creche. They did choose not to use either, or take any of the other options available to them e.g. stay in, take the children with them etc.

None of us know why they took the option they did. They may have thought that there was more likelihood of them being harmed by a babysitter than something happening with the arrangement they had. They were probably statistically correct.

The point I'm really making is that the choice they made is not a unique one, given the fact services to have some someone listen outside a child's door at specified time interval and let you know if they are crying were commonplace at the time and still available now. That service was not available to them, but maybe they thought their arrangement of actually going in was superior and I can't see how it was much different.

I'm not so much talking about the rights and wrongs of what the choice they made, but that it was a commonplace arrangement and the level of vilification doesn't seem to take that into account and distracts from finding out what happened.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Julesky said:


> Like i said a few comments ago- this all distarcts from finding her- the continued rhetoric of the parents' guilt and responsibility for leaving them alone... where is she? who took her?


I understand where you're coming from about the continued rhetoric, but as with most things now it's mostly all in the public eye so people are going to jump to conclusions. Whilst yes it can be extremely frustrating, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I would love nothing more than to have this little girl found (along with all other missing kiddies), I would love to think that she's been taken to order by someone that wanted a little girl of their own to love and cherish, although that in its self if she is found would cause untold problems.

However we have to look at the fact that she is more than likely dead, and with that assumption comes the scrutiny of all actions, and yes people will put two and two together and make five, it's one of the more unfortunate traits of humanity in general. Regardless of the seriousness of this in particular, have you never made the wrong assumption of a situation?

I would like to believe that the McCanns are guilty of nothing more than leaving the kids alone whilst going out. Because the alternative does not bear thinking about. It is bad enough for a child to taken and killed by a stranger let alone by a friend/member of family.

I think the country as a whole would like closure on this case one way or another, let alone any member of her family.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Aye- but the press mauled them? Don't you remember- they wanted the child found, there was no Leveson enquiry at the time- you disagree with the press and they can destroy you..
> 
> Say she's out there and they are wrongly accused. Sorting out the media requires money and someone savvy - they got that. Because they were needing to find her...
> 
> Like i said a few comments ago- this all distarcts from finding her- the continued rhetoric of the parents' guilt and responsibility for leaving them alone... where is she? who took her?


Yes for that you get a lawyer and maybe a spokesperson, which they did get.

A spin doctor's only job is to put you in a positive light, spin what's bad into something good. It's a weird person to involve in this.

Anyway, there is a lot that is strange, beyond the behaviour of a parent in shock. That's just my opinion.
There is a true thing, that a guilty person will invent a story and or person to what actually happened. Like they did. someone snatched her, tampered with the shutters and they must have seen her in her new clothes etc.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

bird said:


> I understand where you're coming from about the continued rhetoric, but as with most things now it's mostly all in the public eye so people are going to jump to conclusions. Whilst yes it can be extremely frustrating, we are all entitled to our opinions.
> 
> I would love nothing more than to have this little girl found (along with all other missing kiddies), I would love to think that she's been taken to order by someone that wanted a little girl of their own to love and cherish, although that in its self if she is found would cause untold problems.
> 
> ...


Of course we are all entitled to our opinions! I agree-

Here's mine: If a person smokes and they get lung cancer or their child gets it via secondary we don't go running through cancer wards shouting, 'told you so you should never have smoked- apologise to me, apologise to your children'- we may well think it.

Lessons on tobacco have been learnt. We now understand the dangers of passive smoking on those we love.

We now also understand the lessons of never being complacent with you children and the importance of protecting them- something we know all along, but sadly people exist who would opportunistically or pre-meditatedly wish to harm our children.

Madeleine is missing. We don't know anything more than that.

Victims of crime are victims of crime. Madeleine is one, the parents are too.- because as far as we know she didn't vomit in her sleep, she didn't wander off- someone knows exactly where she is- they are the criminals.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> We have mobile phones, internet and video conference technology. They were there less than 24 hours.
> 
> It was a faith decision- very hard for people without it to understand unless you've been around people with faith- i get it even though i'm not religious- i wouldn't act the same, but i understand why they did.
> 
> Try and see the world from someone else's view. Someone with major believe in a divine all powerful/knowing being.


I have been around people of strong faith for ten years - I doubt it would make one jot of difference


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

suzy93074 said:


> I have been around people of strong faith for ten years - I doubt it would make one jot of difference


I have a very strong Christian faith. If the head of the church offereed to do something for me I would ask for prayer, and if he felt it appropriate, an appeal. However I wouldn't feel that I needed to meet the Pope (or in my case, the Archbishop of Canterbury) for this to be done. I wouldn't want to let my other babies out of my sight.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I have been around people of strong faith for ten years -* I doubt it would make one jot of difference*


Do you mean to your opinion?- absolutely fair enough.
Do you mean the faith/prayer would make a difference?- I agree, cause I'm an atheist.

But i've been around people with strong faith for 31 years. It helps them deal with stuff, it helps them find comfort and they believe there is protection for their loved ones and their loved ones souls in this prayer. So it makes a big big difference to them.

'Specially them Catholics, you gotta see the pain and suffering as part of the process.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Do you mean to your opinion?- absolutely fair enough.
> Do you mean the faith/prayer would make a difference?- I agree, cause I'm an atheist.
> 
> But i've been around people with strong faith for 31 years. It helps them deal with stuff, it helps them find comfort and they believe there is protection for their loved ones and their loved ones souls in this prayer. So it makes a big big difference to them.
> ...


I dont dispute any of what you say - BUT I still think most people regardless of faith would not have put this before looking for their child or helping in any way with the investigation - there is a time and a place - the parental instinct surely is stronger ........most of the Christians I know agree with me 100% and I have had this convo with them before ......


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I dont dispute any of what you say - BUT I still think most people regardless of faith would not have put this before looking for their child or helping in any way with the investigation - there is a time and a place - the parental instinct surely is stronger ........most of the Christians I know agree with me 100% and I have had this convo with them before ......


Well obviously if most people would act the same based on your convos I am totally wrong- no... wait.... i just realised how preposterous it is to speak to our own peer groups/friends/have a wee coffee chat and decide that 'normal' human behaviour is only the kind we would display.

You need only look on ANY thread to see the rich tapestry of views and opinions form celery to minions etc.

We are all different. We are all entitled to differ.

We should not therefore go about condemning people based on a behaviour we would not have done- but many others have done.

Wasn't that long ago older siblings were left in charge of youngsters so families could earn enough to pay the bills- I'm from one of those homes, my 13 and 12 year old brother often looked after me and my wee sister until my parents returned from work- ANYTHING could have happened.

Before that my grandparents virtually raised half the wee ones themselves- a common theme from their stories in the tenements of Glasgow- and they were in charge of loads of infants (this was form the non- catholic side too).

How quickly we forget.

The world is changing, sadly stories like the McCanns have lessons for us all- the biggest people paying the price for that lesson are Madeleine and her parents


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Well obviously if most people would act the same based on your convos I am totally wrong- no... wait.... i just realised how preposterous it is to speak to our own peer groups/friends/have a wee coffee chat and decide that 'normal' human behaviour is only the kind we would display.
> 
> You need only look on ANY thread to see the rich tapestry of views and opinions form celery to minions etc.
> 
> ...


Of course people have their own opinions something I have stated many times on this thread and in other threads over the 5 years I have been here ....this is MY opinion  im not arguing that my opinion is right and yours is wrong

.....Im a liberal person in general - I would say im fair and in fact I mostly always fight for the weak and victimised in any situation - Im not blinkered and I certainly dont pre judge - having gone thru some pretty hard times in my life has left me the good fortune to realise not every thing is black and white ....BUT on this I Just cannot summon up those qualities I know I normally possess - maybe because thru fertility issues (my partner) means we can not have our own biological child and having gone thru the IVF process unsucessfully I know just how tough that process is - I know I personally would cherish the gift of a child and what these people did IMO was abhorent why have kids if you dont want to look after them?

My opinion back when this has happened was the same as now so my emotions have not changed my views - before you say  I do accept what you are saying but I wont ever change my mind - Kate and Gerry were at fault and their actions resulted in her disappearance.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Of course people have their own opinions something I have stated many times on this thread and in other threads over the *5 years *I have been here ....this is MY opinion  im not arguing that my opinion is right and yours is wrong
> 
> .....Im a liberal person in general - I would say im fair and in fact I mostly always fight for the weak and victimised in any situation - Im not blinkered and I certainly dont pre judge - having gone thru some pretty hard times in my life has left me the good fortune to realise not every thing is black and white ....BUT on this I Just cannot summon up those qualities I know I normally possess - maybe because thru fertility issues (my partner) means we can not have our own biological child and having gone thru the IVF process unsucessfully I know just how tough that process is - I know I personally would cherish the gift of a child and what these people did IMO was abhorent why *have kids if you dont want to look after them?*
> 
> My opinion back when this has happened was the same as now so my emotions have not changed my views - before you say  I do accept what you are saying but I wont ever change my mind - Kate and Gerry were at fault and their actions resulted in her disappearance.


I know- it feel like it's been 5 years since i didn't hear the words, I'm entitled to an opinion as a rubbish argument / thread ruiner on PF- JOKING!

Seriously though, there's a crucial difference between having an opinion and expecting our own to be correct especially if others agree- countless people have said.

You have used this platform to decribe why you are so passionate in this argument- because of the fertitlity etc. None of us have heard from the McCanns- they use their time to highlight she is gone not to apologise- maybe they are saving their apologies to madeleine.

The bit in bold is tragically sad. My parents didn't always look after me- and before you say they were working- well maybe others would argue if they couldn't afford to care for their children (as in be present) maybe they shouldn't have had us.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

la468 said:


> I'm confused now. I just read that a family saw a guy (who the efit pic is based off) running away with a child that night, am I correct here? Why has it taken 6/7 years for this to come to light? I don't understand.


There was a programme which the McCann's had banned in this country, but it was aired in Portugal. The ruling was over turned but I don't think it was ever aired in this country, but it may well have been... anyway, in this programme they tell you of someone reporting seeing a man running away with a child... I am not sure if it is the same person, but I assume it is. The programme said that the family were from Ireland, and saw the footage of the McCann's arriving home from Portugal. Gerry was carrying one of the twins, and they called to say that it was the same man they saw - they recognised his stance with the way he was carrying the twin (I am not sure which one, I think Sean). Like I say, I am not sure if it is the same person but this programme was made a few years ago... I think 2009 but I could be wrong, it was around then anyway.



Julesky said:


> Hang on a wee minute:
> 
> Madeleine would still be with her family if someone had not committed a crime.
> 
> All other children who are victims of crime would not be if people did not commit them.


They committed a crime first... and as she was their child, they were the first point of responsibility and they failed on all fronts. Taking away the risk of abduction, a hundred and one things could have happened to those three children that night... so, it doesn't take someone else committing a crime for them to lose their child - and I don't believe they did lose their child at the hands of someone else... I don't believe someone else committed a crime.



Polimba said:


> I always wonder how many other parents left their children in similar circumstances at that resort prior to Maddie's disappearance or even at the same time?


I am sure there are many who do so, but it doesn't make it okay or acceptable. My mum was sickened at them leaving their three young children in the way they did... My mum and dad took my two older sisters on holiday before I was born... My oldest sister was 5 so it would have been 26 years ago, and my mum not once left my sisters in the hotel. Since Maddy went missing my mum has told me many times how she wouldn't have dreamt of doing it, even back then when people were more relaxed...

Off to read the rest of the thread now


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I have a very strong Christian faith. If the head of the church offereed to do something for me I would ask for prayer, and if he felt it appropriate, an appeal. However I wouldn't feel that I needed to meet the Pope (or in my case, the Archbishop of Canterbury) for this to be done. I wouldn't want to let my other babies out of my sight.


Neither would I. I would be checking on them when they slept, when they were awake.I would be terrified of anything happening to them.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Victims of crime are victims of crime. Madeleine is one, the parents are too.- because as far as we know she didn't vomit in her sleep, she didn't wander off- someone knows exactly where she is- they are the criminals.


But the parents allowed this crime to happen so they might be victims in a sense but they are responsible for the situation happening in the first place.
There are bad people everywhere amongst us, we are all aware of that, that's why a parent has the role of keeping their children as safe as possible. And the Mccannns haven't done that. They left their children in a vulnerable state (even more if its true they drugged them to help them sleep), unsupervised alone, scared and confused (the twin cried the other night) so they could go out and dine and wine, not even something that is so important. 
What kind of parent does that? Unfortunately not a good one (and yes, there are plenty of those out there too, sadly) I personally cant and never will get my head around this.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Ok can't be bothered to do quotes. 

So others including myself were left to be looked after by older siblings while parents earns a crust. Guess what, so did mine, however the eldest amongst us was not 3 vastly big difference doncha think. Oh and my FIL was pulled from his schooling to go and earn to help support his siblings yadda yadda, we have moved on from the bad old days of that happening, and I've never read that 3 yr olds were ever left in charge of themselves let alone others. The older members of families band together to help support each other, myself in question has given up going out to work to look after my granddaughter in order for eldest to try a forge a career for herself, hey it's what families do they support each other.  

Now the fact that the McCanns are catholic does not make them special for leaving other children behind whilst they go and see the Pope, and yes I do know some very staunch Catholics, that even do the readings in their local church, and are so known that the night they missed Xmas mass, the priest called on them to see if they were ok (part of my family  ) 

I know that you are defending them and you're doing a grand job, but step outside the box for a minute to try and see how all this vitriol is coming from. 

Fact - they left the kids alone and at such a young age too and it wasn't just for one night either it was every night. The vast majority of people not just on here but everywhere, struggle with this, why take the kids with them if this was their intention. I can understand parents wanting a little time to themselves, but it has to be accepted or should be that if you want adult time then you arrange supervision, if that can't be done then you either don't go out or take them with you. THiS is what has got peoples backs up to start with.

Flipping heck, when the girls were younger we would all have the meal together even if it meant eating earlier than we as adults would have liked, and then took a bottle to our balcony/patio and played cards or similar while they slept. 

FAct - Maddie asked them where they were when they woke up crying, yet they still chose to go out the following night!!!! My god, for any perv in the area watching little kids, this couple were a bloody dream come true. I tell you, if this had happened in this country, there's an extremely good chance that this couple would be on a supervision order at best from social services and or charged with neglect. 

NOT FACT - something smells, yes I keep saying it but it does, something about this couple is not sitting right with me, I don't know whether it's him or her or the both of them, but, much as I feel utter pity for Maddie, and please believe me I do, I cannot find any pity (or as much as there should be) for her parents. I don't know why, I just don't.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bird said:


> Now the fact that the McCanns are catholic does not make them special for leaving other children behind whilst they go and see the Pope,
> I
> 
> .


Dunno Maybe they wanted to get summat off their chests


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wowzers-bird chill out a bit- who said they were special for being catholic?


Also when my sibings were left in charge my parents were not 100ms away.

So in this day ang age if they had left a 12 year old in charge and the children had choked it would have been ok

They 'allowed' it to happen.

I think i preferred the incredibly dreary rainy dreich walk to the levels of pure venom on this thread- eek.

Off to hide.

DT because i have a sense of humour and also conspiracy theories I did chuckle at yer post.

Enjoy the ranting- if the twins are readin this in years to come - I think your folks loved you all, they just made an awful awful mistake- the people or person who are responsible for madeleine disappearing are to blame

Aye you were left alone- that doesn't give anyone any right to take you.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

P.s bird- 

Vitriol- bitter criticism or malice

I dislike vitriol on any level.

I understand where it comes from. It's an emotive topic.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> So in this day ang age if they had left a 12 year old in charge and the children had choked it would have been ok
> 
> DT because i have a sense of humour and also conspiracy theories I did chuckle at yer post.
> 
> .


That were my intention

Back to the conspiracy theory,  I know there have been many doing the rounds and it gets harder for us to know what is fact or what is fiction.

BUT! I do seem to remember that the McCanns admitted to giving Maddie some medication to make her sleep, maybe it was Kalpol maybe something stronger and only they know that!

Feel free to confirm if in fact the Mccanns did or didn't say that!


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Julesky said:


> P.s bird-
> 
> Vitriol- bitter criticism or malice
> 
> ...


Oo-err someone has a dictionary. :biggrin: :biggrin:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bird said:


> Oo-err someone has a dictionary. :biggrin: :biggrin:


Not me! I don't even have a spellchecker


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

bird said:


> Oo-err someone has a dictionary. :biggrin: :biggrin:


I'm not that learned... i googled it *shoosh*


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Off to walk the beast.

DT not sure- I dunno if half the stuff was BS and after leveson is no longer allowed to be reported, cause it was BS- but the articles are still in circulation.

Or if they did give them something.

Has anyone actually read their book??


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Off to walk the beast.
> 
> DT not sure- I dunno if half the stuff was BS and after leveson is no longer allowed to be reported, cause it was BS- but the articles are still in circulation.
> 
> ...


Well I did buy it! NOT from the shop as I didn't want to donate to a fund I am unsure of! so picked ityou from a charity shop the local RSCPA as it happens, but its just sat gathering dust!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> I know- it feel like it's been 5 years since i didn't hear the words, I'm entitled to an opinion as a rubbish argument / thread ruiner on PF- JOKING!
> 
> Seriously though, there's a crucial difference between having an opinion and expecting our own to be correct especially if others agree- countless people have said.
> 
> ...


And as I mentioned back when this happened I was not looking to even have children so NO im not emotional because of it  - its ALWAYS been how I see it with regards this case - and yes maybe they should not! if you take on the responsibility of having children do it and do it well ! thats why we have so many messed up kids nowadays  makes me very sad

As I have said I dont know if my opinion is right its just what I think and a few others too - just like a few agree with you too ! and thats everyones perogitive  - :cornut::cornut:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Off to walk the beast.
> 
> DT not sure- I dunno if half the stuff was BS and after leveson is no longer allowed to be reported, cause it was BS- but the articles are still in circulation.
> 
> ...


My sister read it she said it was awfully sad etc etc ....she did offer to borrow it me but I refuse to be a part of a money making scheme...so I didnt


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Wow, this is a long thread but I have finally caught up...

The conversation about the cadaver dogs interested me but there were too many posts to quote. One thing though, I am sure that Kate does come into contact with dead bodies, but why would she take those same clothes on holiday with her? Why on earth would she take her childs cuddly toy to work with her? Which is what she claimed when faced with the cadaver dogs findings...

Those dogs were taken in all the other apartments that the Tapas party stayed in, as well as Robert Murats house. And the only one they indicted in, was the McCanns - and both dogs indicated in there separately! What caused the cadaver dog to indicate in the cupboard? Why was Madeleine's blood found in the apartment? Why did they specifically pick out the McCann's rental car over all the others? To explain away the car indication they said that blood from meat had spilled... but the blood dog only indicates on human blood, not animal. It seems those dogs picked out many places of the McCann's but ignored others... seems far too coincidental. And these dogs are apparently proven British dogs who have been extremely successful...

Then the whole 'drugging' scenario... well, the grandparents admitted that the McCann's would give the kids calpol to make them sleep... and that video that was posted previously says it all for me... Their reaction says it all...



Julesky said:


> Aye the should not have left the weans- not quite sure what everyone here wants- no one has yet responded , do you want them charged for neglect and the other children removed? Now? At the time? Never?


Yes, I want them charged for neglect. No, I don't want their other children removed.



DoodlesRule said:


> My son cried his eyes out and hung onto his Nan's legs when she took him to playgroup does not make her capable of murdering him though.


I don't think anyone is insinuating that her parents killed her because she cried... just that it was completely wrong to leave her, especially after she cried because she woke up in a strange place alone...



DoodlesRule said:


> As I say its not something I would do but to me its like saying poor little Jamie Bulgers mother was guilty of neglect because she let go of his hand and took her eyes off him and he was gone


I know you aren't, but if I heard anyone trying to compare the two cases I would be disgusted. They are very different.



Polimba said:


> Ah sorry I misunderstood, I understand what you mean. I find it interesting, if that's the right word, that people don't have sympathy with them because they left their children, but they have sympathy with the Needhams. I'm not sure of the circumstances of his disappearance but I understand he was 21 months old and disappeared playing near his grandpatents house. So he was also an unsupervised child who disappeared. If he had been in the house and his carers less than 100m outside would that be different? Is it the activity the carers are carrying out that make it different? I'm not putting the blame on either I'm just musing why people have such differing views when the consequences were the same.


Well, firstly... wasn't his mum out at the time and he was left in the care of his grandparents? So, his parents didn't leave him unsupervised... then there is the actual situation of the case. Now, I am not saying that I agree with what happened in Ben Needhams case but... he was outside his grandparents house, playing in the middle of the day in a village they ('they' being his grandparents) knew well (since they actually lived there) and it was in 1991. Now, people should still have been careful back then (my mum was) but it was still very different to 2007... Again, not saying I agree but just two very different cases... same as James Bulgers is a very different case.



Polimba said:


> So it's ok to leave a young child unattended in daylight hours then
> 
> I wouldn't say they were partying, they we're having a meal, however I do understand why people don't agree with their parenting decisions. I just find it a huge leap from a child crying when you go out, I used to do the same when my mum ever left me, to them being capable of some of the allegations.


They didn't cry because their parents went out - they cried because they woke up in a strange place, alone... not knowing where there parents were. A lot of kids would be scared in that situation at that age.



Julesky said:


> Yeah they did- as extremely religious people they went to the head of their church to ask for prayers- they were there for about 24 hours.
> 
> It's a tough decision- publicise/ask for prayers for your missing child at the highest level of your faith- seek comfort for the hell you imagine your child is going through


I don't think it is a tough decision.

Religious or not, why ANYONE would willingly leave their child in another country when their other child has been abducted is just beyond me... I cannot, and will not ever, understand that... My OHs mum is strictly religious, and I can't imagine her doing that... her two sons are her world and she would move heaven and earth for them.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Well I did buy it! NOT from the shop as I didn't want to donate to a fund I am unsure of! so picked ityou from a charity shop the local RSCPA as it happens, but its just sat gathering dust!


Let me know if you read it!


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

DT said:


> That were my intention
> 
> Back to the conspiracy theory, I know there have been many doing the rounds and it gets harder for us to know what is fact or what is fiction.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure they did, I think it's hard to pick out any reliable sources for anything in this case. I don't think they said it in any official statements.

I found this, which might explain where the idea came come?

Madeleine McCann - Exposing the Myths [licensed for non-commercial use only] / Rebuttal of "Fact" 13

Is Calpol a sedative?

I haven't read the book, I might download it and read it now.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Polimba said:


> I'm not sure they did, I think it's hard to pick out any reliable sources for anything in this case. I don't think they said it in any official statements.
> 
> I found this, which might explain where the idea came come?
> 
> ...


Calpol does make them drowsy I believe, but not classed as a sedative as it is for sale over the counter!


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm gonna have to buy the book now. I still find it very fishy.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2013)

DT said:


> Calpol does make them drowsy I believe, but not classed as a sedative as it is for sale over the counter!


Calpol has no sedative effect what so ever.

It was Calpol night which could have a sedative effect, which has since been discontinued over here.

Calpol night (discontinued in the UK)


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> Calpol has no sedative effect what so ever.
> 
> It was Calpol night which could have a sedative effect, which has since been discontinued over here.
> 
> Calpol night (discontinued in the UK)


Erm! the plot thickens then!
It reads to me that kalpol was NOT discontinued until 2009

Calpol night (discontinued in the UK)

and really don't know how reliable the information is, but read that Gerry McCann admitted giving Maddie Kalpol! Which one I wonder?
and have I read this right it was not intended to be used for children under 6?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Julesky said:


> Well obviously if most people would act the same based on your convos I am totally wrong- no... wait.... i just realised how preposterous it is to speak to our own peer groups/friends/have a wee coffee chat and decide that 'normal' human behaviour is only the kind we would display.
> 
> You need only look on ANY thread to see the rich tapestry of views and opinions form celery to minions etc.
> 
> ...


As you say yourself - parents left children _so that they could go to work and pay the bills._ And when they were young your grandparents stepped into the role. And id it was anything like our street, the kids could call on the neighbours for help if there was an accident.

I was the oldest of five myself - I've been down that road - and I can tell you, if there was any way that leaving us alone could have been avoided, then we wouldn't have been left!

There is a hell of a difference between being forced to go out and leave your children so you can keep a roof over their heads and put food on the table, and leaving 3 very young children without any protection in a foreign country just so you could have a night out with your mates!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

astro2011 said:


> I'm gonna have to buy the book now. I still find it very fishy.


Get it from the library - don't line their very deep, full pockets.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2013)

DT said:


> Erm! the plot thickens then!
> It reads to me that kalpol was NOT discontinued until 2009
> 
> Calpol night (discontinued in the UK)
> ...


I remember it being shelved over here you could at first administer it to babies from 3 months of age, then it got revised to two years old and over, I think it were in 2008, then not long after that, it was completely withdrawn from sale.

Now it's still sold in other countries and as far as I know only to be administered to children 6 years and over.

Hope that helps.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

SirHiss said:


> I remember it being shelved over here you could at first administer it to babies from 3 months of age, then it got revised to two years old and over, I think it were in 2008, then not long after that, it was completely withdrawn from sale.
> 
> Now it's still sold in other countries and as far as I know only to be administered to children 6 years and over.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Than you for clarifying! now did the McCanns administer Kalpol? or something ore sinister maybe??


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

The Portuguese Police have re-opened the search for Madeleine McCann. Only 5 years too late :frown2:

Fingers crossed together with the Met Police they'll solve this terrible story


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

no matter what people think what happened , whos to blame ect , no one was there that night apart from them involved ... 


what matters is the outcome, if there ever will be one .. a child being found is the priority here !!!!


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