# Free Kitten Packs?



## Emmag

Hi, Other than Royal Canin, is there any other companies out there that I can sign up for free kitten packs? 

Thanks 

Emma


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## sokeldachshunds

Purina do them


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## Selk67U2

*James Wellbeloved, if you're a member and order food regularly*


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## Angeli

Selk67U2 said:


> *James Wellbeloved, if you're a member and order food regularly*


Do JWB have a cat breeders scheme as does RC? I can't remember seeing anything on their website about it. 
I order mine from people that attend the shows.


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## may

Angeli said:


> Do JWB have a cat breeders scheme as does RC? I can't remember seeing anything on their website about it.
> I order mine from people that attend the shows.


Yes, JWB do breeders scheme just phone them up and they will give you the info you need I got my breeders card a couple of days after I spoke to them, they do kitten packs, 
They are in the same building as RC


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## Angeli

may said:


> Yes, JWB do breeders scheme just phone them up and they will give you the info you need I got my breeders card a couple of days after I spoke to them, they do kitten packs,
> They are in the same building as RC


Ooh thanks for that info May.
As I said I looked thoroughly on their site but nothing was mentioned so I presumed they didn't.


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## Emmag

Hi Guys, thanks for those replies. I will have a look on their websites.


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## may

Angeli said:


> Ooh thanks for that info May.
> As I said I looked thoroughly on their site but nothing was mentioned so I presumed they didn't.


When you put the order in they deliver within 5 working days 
and it works out cheaper with a breeders number


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## Selk67U2

*Hehe, yea I ordered all mine today*


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## rottiesloveragdolls

*ALso u can get Buddies (Iams) kitten packs and dont have to buy the products either, :*D


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## Emstarz

Are we talking breeders stuff here or in general??

I got a lovely folder from Whiskas where you can chart their development and put pics in and their injections etc. I don't like Whiskas but it is very pretty and free so you may as well send off for it - I was going to start a thread recommending it but won't bother now. Just a little disappointed they wouldn't send me three!


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## rottiesloveragdolls

*I sent for those as well i had 21 kittens @ the time, and i only got 1, so was no good to me *


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## Emstarz

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> *I sent for those as well i had 21 kittens @ the time, and i only got 1, so was no good to me *


Aren't they stingy - think they could afford it with all the money they save on meat!! 

They are pretty though aren't they?


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## may

Emstarz said:


> Aren't they stingy - think they could afford it with all the money they save on meat!!


PMSL


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## Selk67U2

*Hahaha, love that comment

RC & JWB stuff I get is from the breeder clubs Emily*


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## Clare Ferris

Hills do kitten packs in a posh bag if you buy food from them, I personnally use them as there food is very good. I would only ever use hills or rc to be honest. Other dry foods tend to be to high in cereals and low in animal protein, i.e jw.


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## kozykatz

Hills and RC are both high in cereals. The only grain free dried foods I'm aware of (obtainable in the UK) are Orijen, Applaws, Acana and Grau (if you don't count rice as a grain)

I refuse to use any of the manufacturers' kitten packs, I make my own so that I can provide samples of good quality foods (plus lots of other bits and bobs)


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## Clare Ferris

They are not as high as most supermarket dry foods and contain approx 65% animal protein based on weight. Meat is the first ingredient listed which means there is more meat than any other ingredient. I am well aware of applaws I used to use it until my cat got horrendous diarrhoea on it oh and one of my others developed a urinary problem a few months after going onto it. He previously had hills for over 11 years with no problems. It does not bother me using grains in diets they do not cause problems and other things need to be considered not just wheter the food has cereals or not. I am a vet nurse as well as breeder with an interest in nutrition so I know what im talking about thanks, oh and I also add other things to my packs from hills.


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## kozykatz

Yes, I agree that other things beside meat/protein content need to be considered - and the problem with ALL dried foods (including grain free) is the high carbohydrate content, this predisposes cats to things such as diabetes, kidney problems, and more. There is no dried food that has carb content less than 10%, whereas cats require 3% or less in their diet.
I personally wouldn't use Applaws dried either, after hearing that so many people have had trouble with it.
I use very little in the way of dried food and recommend that my kitten owners do the same, or preferably avoid it alltogether.

I don't want to get into an argument, I am just stating facts 



Clare Ferris said:


> They are not as high as most supermarket dry foods and contain approx 65% animal protein based on weight. Meat is the first ingredient listed which means there is more meat than any other ingredient. I am well aware of applaws I used to use it until my cat got horrendous diarrhoea on it oh and one of my others developed a urinary problem a few months after going onto it. He previously had hills for over 11 years with no problems. It does not bother me using grains in diets they do not cause problems and other things need to be considered not just wheter the food has cereals or not. I am a vet nurse as well as breeder with an interest in nutrition so I know what im talking about thanks, oh and I also add other things to my packs from hills.


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## billyboysmammy

Not a big fan of dried foods here but

burns
arden grange
nutrience

also do kitten packs for breeders


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> I am a vet nurse as well as breeder with an interest in nutrition so I know what im talking about thanks, oh and I also add other things to my packs from hills.


Just as an aside, can I ask whether the practice you work for sells Hills products? Do they sell solely Hills?


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## Clare Ferris

I am not sure where these so called facts have come from, I assume that you mean the lower water content in relation to kidney disease?? But then cats that hav dry tend to drink more whereas cats on wet hardly ever drink. But then high amounts of low quality protein can also predispose to kidney problems and as for Diabetes that is linked to obesity not carbs as far as I am aware. I do use dry food as it can be left down and does not go off, cats prefer to graze feed so this suits them. I dont like wet food because of the dental disease risks which can only be avoided if you brush your cats teeth, do you do this? I work with vets that use hills and rc and I am sure if there was proven evidence to support what you say then they would not use it. I dont want to get into an argument either I am stating what I prefer and have found to be best from my expehttp://www.petforums.co.uk/images/editor/color.gifrience of keeping cats and my nutritional training. If your information is based on internet sources then I would say dont believe everything you read. The internet is an open forum any anyone can post anecdotal info on there. I think this whole hypoallergenic craze some people are on is just that and is purely a marketing thing. Just my opinion.
Clare


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## Clare Ferris

We sell hills and rc as these are what we believe to be the best high quality foods. It has nothing to do with my choices on what I feed my own cats. My experience and that of others suggests that our cats do better on high quality foods. These companies put alot of money into research into what is healthy and what is not. I assume you are another hypoallergenic fan !
Clare


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## Clare Ferris

So can I ask what wet food you use or are you a raw food person?


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> then I would say dont believe everything you read.


I would say the same to vets who seem to swallow what the dry food manufacturers tell them about their product without questioning it. Most seem to be brainwashed by the manufacturers blurb, as do all who work with them.

I do not think that its unrelated either that vets training on cat nutrition forms a miniscule part of their overall course. Nor that any nutritional seminars, CPD etc are mainly run by or sponsored by dry food manufacturers.

Cats on a dried diet do drink more more water agreed, but are not programmed to drink sufficient water to countermand the dehydrating affects of the food.

IF you have a genuine interest in nutrition you should try reading Your Cat by Elizabeth Hodgkins, a vet and cat breeder who has also worked within the pet food industry for a number of years, which by anyones reckoning would make her far more qualified to have an opinion on feline nutrition than most people.

As far as Hills are concerned try googling Hills and Ethoxyquin. I thought they had stopped using it, but apparently not. Of course whether you choose to accept what you read is entirely up to you


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## spid

Clare Ferris said:


> whereas cats on wet hardly ever drink. My cats, fed purely on wet drink quite a bit out of the water fountain. I dont like wet food because of the dental disease risks which can only be avoided if you brush your cats teeth, do you do this? Dry doesn't clean teeth either though - it shatters on impact and no massaging of gums or teeth occurs - raw chicken wings on the other hand do massage and clean the teeth and gums. If your information is based on internet sources then I would say dont believe everything you read. The internet is an open forum any anyone can post anecdotal info on there. And you can also get very good proper research on the internet too I think this whole hypoallergenic craze some people are on is just that and is purely a marketing thing. ANd the big companies are also 'marketing', as is kitten food- I did a study (a proper one) and found NO difference between some kitten foods and adult foods other than price! Just my opinion. Mine too
> 
> Clare


...............


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## Biawhiska

No one will ever agree on what food is best. It's like baby formula milk, those debates can get quite heated!

At the end of the day what suits one cat won't always suit another. Hills would make one of mine very sick, and the siamese would always eat it too fast and puke it back up!!!

None of mine will touch Applaws dry, and I don't like RC, and it also makes the siamese puke.

Since using wet foods and either raw or cooked meats my cats never sick their food back up! They themselves would rather starve than eat dry.

Except for my 2 moggies who i am still trying to get off dry but it's not happening :frown2:


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## Saikou

The original thread was about kitten packs. I personally object to someone coming on declaring that x brand is the best food then trying to add weight to what is in effect just their own personal opinion by stating they are a vet nurse and know what they are talking about. Reminds me of another individual we had on here :mad2: :mad2:


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## Kalipha

Back on topic! I like Orijen for various reasons, while I feed raw as well I like having dry available for convenience (Sometimes I go away overnight or the weekend. I feed raw when I leave in the morning, raw when I get back at the end of the following day or whatever, and they can feed themselves off the dry while I'm gone. No one's gonna make me feel guilty about that ).

Orijen do a breeder program with free kitten packs - ORIJEN Partner Programme | Orijen Pet Foods .co.uk - and once I have a second girl (hoping to keep one from the first litter if all goes well and there's the right lass in there) I'll be signing up. Most breeder programs I've seen are minimum 2 queens.


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## spid

I tend to make up my own kitten packs. I feed raw and good quality wet - if the new owner lives close by they get some raw to take with them (if they want to) if not then I just pop in a couple of the other stuff. I don't think I buy enough of any one thing to use breeder packs. ANd like you, Kalipha, I only have one queen at the moment.


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## Saikou

I have Technical kitten packs from AJM Pet Products. I don't feed dry at all, and tell the kittens new owners that, although they do get dry tasters before they leave, which most of them flatly refuse to touch :thumbup1:

The Technical packs come with a small bag of Oko Plus and I get one pack per 40l bag of Oko Plus purchased. You get a small tin of wet food - Forenza I think, a litter scoop and bowl. Then I add samples of wet they have been used to, toys etc


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## Biawhiska

Saikou said:


> The original thread was about kitten packs. I personally object to someone coming on declaring that x brand is the best food then trying to add weight to what is in effect just their own personal opinion by stating they are a vet nurse and know what they are talking about. Reminds me of another individual we had on here :mad2: :mad2:


I too am not keen on the "Well I'm a Vet Nurse" line.... :mad2:


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## Clare Ferris

Oh right so what happened to this other individual then....was she bullied off here by you lot aswell?????
I object to being ganged up on. It is my opinion and the original message was me offering my opinion I have never said this is the best for every cat and you must all follow it, Yes I am a vet nurse and so I do think it gives me more knowledge than the average person but I get the distinct impression that there are alot of people on here who think they know it all because they breed!!!! and if anyone does not agree with them then they are made to feel very unwelcome. Anyone can call themselves a breeder if they have the animals to breed with.!
I and the people I work with see it all the time and breeders are probably the worst people to deal with sometimes as they just dont listen. (Oh im not labelling all breeders just in case anyone else wants to moan). I feed my cats and kittens on what I believe to be the best for them and I do not have problems with it. I have had cats for 18 years+ so I like to think I have experience, and I WILL NOT BE BULLIED INTO ANYTHING OR MADE TO FEEL GUILTY. This was my first message on here and have to say I dont think ill be coming back on here anytime soon. so congratulations in pushing another person of this forum. Well maybe its best I go because otherwise I may say something I regret!


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## Jen26

Clare Ferris said:


> Oh right so what happened to this other individual then


She was banned


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## Saikou

If you have an opinion state it, I don't understand what your occupation has to do with that UNLESS you are trying to imply that your opinion is obviously more correct than anyone elses because of that!! To me your website also tries to imply that your cats and kittens are healthier than anyone elses because of your profession.

I think if you re read you responses to those that have dared to offer a different opinion to yours you will see that you are certainly not the one being bullied 



Clare Ferris said:


> Anyone can call themselves a breeder if they have the animals to breed with.!
> I and the people I work with see it all the time and breeders are probably the worst people to deal with sometimes as they just dont listen.


I think that statement speaks volumes. I take it you are not including yourself in that group seeing as you are a 'breeder' - are you not according to your website. Its very sad when the veterinary profession have that opinion of breeders, based probably on a minority of bad ones they may or may not have encountered. We are all in it for the money, don't care about our cats and kittens blah blah blah.

I would say that a breeder with decades of experience DOES know more about certain aspects of cats and their breed than most vets and its a shame more vets can not put their egos aside for one minute and LISTEN!! They might actually learn something. I personally would not want to use a vet that thought it was a lecture and listen relationship. I want to work with my vet not be dictated to! I am paying for the service after all!



Clare Ferris said:


> I WILL NOT BE BULLIED INTO ANYTHING OR MADE TO FEEL GUILTY


A lot of people on here have decades of experience and know what they are talking about, and they won't be bullied either into not voicing their opinions because they are not a vet or qualified/student/thinking about starting vet nurse or vets receptionist  

Its a shame you feel the need to leave because as a very new breeder, you could probably learn quite a bit from those with far more experience. Still its your choice.


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## Biawhiska

I see the banned vet nurse is on yahoo lists tho


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## Saikou

You mean the banned vet's receptionist or pretend vet nurse


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## Biawhiska

lol.... un the vet receptionist vet wannabe know all.


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## Clare Ferris

For me this little discussion has got way out of hand, that is why I said I would leave this list not because I wanted to but because I dont want to fall out with people and be labelled a another trouble maker, because I am not. I do feel as though I am being ganged up on here. I mentioned my profession as it has helped me alot in providing me with the basic knowledge to get started with breeding cats. most would also assume that because of it I atleast knew something and was not talking rubbish. I do consider myself to be in a better position to give out advice to new owners because of it compared with other new breeders. I am in no way trying to undermine other breeders on this list but it is my opinion from what I have learned and experienced through owning cats for many years. My website has information on there to try and educate owners before they purchase a kitten. I am simply trying to ensure that they ask the right questions inorder to make the right decision, I dont see how it implies I am better than other breeders? I see everyday people buying animals from back street breeders with problems and I feel it is my job to try and prevent this happening within my breed. I have kitten owners who have previously been caught out by other breeders when purchasing cats, one lady in question was sold a kitten that went on to develop problems and had to be put to sleep recently. She is very pleased with me and the kitten I sold her and trusts me because of my profession and knows I would never sell something unhealthy, this has infact swayed her decision on which breeder to choose, so yes it does go in my favour but I in no way use it to imply Im right and everyone else is wrong. she is also a client of ours so shes knows if she has any problems then she can come to me for help. There are a lot of unethical breeders out there and unfortunately where I live and work you get alot of idiots who are breeding for money and think they know it all. They come in demanding all sorts and when they dont get what they want they shout abuse. That is what I meant when saying vets dont like most breeders. Yes I am classed as a breeder now I guess and I do get the mick taken out of me for it in work sometimes but I dont act in the way some breeders do and at the end of the day I am a nurse and this is a hobby. I would assume that people on this list are not those sorts of people and breed for the love of their cats. I apologise if I have came across as a know it all but I do not think that. I honestly thought that some people would respect my profession and my views because of the training I have but I guess not. I still have alot to learn and will always learn new things. I breed to try and produce healthy cat and better the breed. I work hard to do this like I am sure alot of others here do, but there is nothing wrong with trying to educate people. I respect the fact that people breeding for many years will have alot of knowledge and I do take alot of advice from my breeder friends. I do still however have opinions on what I feel is best for my cats and everyones opinion will be different, I am not trying to force my opinions on others, what you do with your cats is upto you at the end of the day just like it is upto me what I choose to do. Can I just ask and I dont mean it in any disrespectful way, but what exactly is it about my website that makes you think I imply I am better than others? I would be interested to know as if It is coming across as offensive then maybe I can look at it again and change it?
Thanks
Clare


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## spid

Okay - I didn't want to get embroiled in this at all, I have my views and you have yours, but you have asked, so I'm looking at the website now and

on the 'about us' page - you state the you are a vet nurse at least twice and therefore can offer advice *most other breeders are not in a position to do *- this assumes/ implies that if we are not a vet nurse then we know next to nothing. I can only assume this is the bit that is causing 'offence'.

Personally, the bit that shocked me most was the cost! I don't charge any extra for a show quality cat - I mean, it's free advertising etc, and success can't be guarenteed, however, you are charging £200 extra on the 'hope' it might be a champion! And it's not cheap to show either! As for active prices - wow - glad I don't want to breed Sibs cos that's Bengal prices and IMHO terribly over inflated (and IMHO that's the sort of thing that creates a market for BYB cos they just see £££££ signs on the kittens - sell them all on active and make loads of money!). Maybe that's just the Sib world - but I'm glad I'm not in it at those prices cos I'd be out of the market through choice! I love cats and breeding but not enough to throw that kind of money at 'potential'! If the cat fails to prove a 'breeder' do you refund some of the money (i.e. the £800 difference between breed and pet price?)

My Birmans are around £375 pet or pet show and £450 on the active (just breed or breed/show) and Birmans are hard to get the foot markings right for show and so good show I believe are harder to come by than some breeds - I have had kittens of fantastic type, colouring, temperament, eye colour etc but the blooming foot markings are not quite right and so no good for showing, and many breeders I know are the same - some may charge £25 more for show but most don't.

Other than that - the website is good if a little word heavy. And the links near the stars aren't obvious (I was clicking on the stars and wondering why nothing was happening) and personally I prefer a unified colour scheme rather than each page different but that is a personal choice. I'm sure if you looked at my site you'd find bits you'd do differently yourself.

By the way, my little kitten (7 weeks old) is going to a vet nurse (of over 25 years experience) for his new mum - she refuses to feed dry at all, and will only feed hi-quality wet (Nature's Menu in her case) or raw - so horses for courses, and each to their own.


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> I do feel as though I am being ganged up on here. I mentioned my profession as it has helped me alot in providing me with the basic knowledge to get started with breeding cats. most would also assume that because of it I atleast knew something and was not talking rubbish. I do consider myself to be in a better position to give out advice to new owners because of it compared with other new breeders.


Can I ask what in your training do you believe puts you in that position ? I doubt you study genetics, what to look for in pedigrees etc. You may well cover a little on birth, but in my experience qualified *vets *are notoriously bad at anything to do with pregnancy, birth, new born or young kittens because they don't have the training or the experience. I am just curious, how many litters have you had ?

I agree with Spid on the comments about being a vet nurse and also agree completely with her comments about your premium for show/breed quality kittens. If it is genuinely a hobby, then importing etc is the cost of the hobby, not the cost of raising a kitten - the only cost a true hobby breeder seeks to recoup.

I also have to say what a load of tosh to your don't buy from people who advertise in newspapers or online with no website. I know loads of breeders who are incredibly well respected, have been breeding for decades who fall into that category!!! A glossy, hard sell website does not equal good breeder!! Sadly more often than not the exact opposite is true.


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## Biawhiska

I think Websites with prices on are very off putting! Esp even saying how much the kitten pack costs!! And, a 40page guide on how to look after my kitten? My goodness :shocked:


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## rottiesloveragdolls

*Just a tad over the top and with your pricing It shows you are making money out of breeding £250 is your costs without your time so it seems your time is very expensive. I dont know of any breeder who price up Show quality higher than pet quality. and i know a lot of breeders!
But who am i to judge your ethics each to their own. *


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## Biawhiska

yeah sorry, i shouldn't judge was just giving my thoughts on prices on websites in general, not just yours.


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## rottiesloveragdolls

*Maybe we should get this back on TOPIC as in Kitten Packs  not the breeding ethics  *


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## rottiesloveragdolls

*The kitten packs i use are Arden Grange, RC, JWB, Purina, & Buddies  *


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## Saikou

I think thats been done, this was a very old thread from June last year that got resurrected.


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## Clare Ferris

spid said:


> Okay - I didn't want to get embroiled in this at all, I have my views and you have yours, but you have asked, so I'm looking at the website now and
> 
> on the 'about us' page - you state the you are a vet nurse at least twice and therefore can offer advice *most other breeders are not in a position to do *- this assumes/ implies that if we are not a vet nurse then we know next to nothing. I can only assume this is the bit that is causing 'offence'.
> I said most other breeders are not in a position to offer advice,relating to vet care etc is what I meant and yes knowledgable, experienced breeders will have learnt alot along the way and so may well know more than me on certain subjects just as I may know more about other things. I am sure if others had my training then they would want to mention it too as it does give a breeder that added extra knowledge that most starting out dont have. I just had an experienced dog breeder with a crufts CH ask me today the correct way to remove fluid from a new born puppy, so even long standing breeders do ask vets nurses for advice some times believe it or not.
> 
> Personally, the bit that shocked me most was the cost! I don't charge any extra for a show quality cat - I mean, it's free advertising etc, and success can't be guarenteed, however, you are charging £200 extra on the 'hope' it might be a champion! And it's not cheap to show either! As for active prices - wow - glad I don't want to breed Sibs cos that's Bengal prices and IMHO terribly over inflated (and IMHO that's the sort of thing that creates a market for BYB cos they just see £££££ signs on the kittens - sell them all on active and make loads of money!). Maybe that's just the Sib world - but I'm glad I'm not in it at those prices cos I'd be out of the market through choice! I love cats and breeding but not enough to throw that kind of money at 'potential'! If the cat fails to prove a 'breeder' do you refund some of the money (i.e. the £800 difference between breed and pet price?)
> 
> I have had this discussion with a breeder wanting to go into sibbys, I wont say what she currently breeds but it is an old breed and she was shocked over the price. My prices are in line with what other sibby breeders charge, not more. My price for breeding cats was £800 but I increased it as a way of putting people off as I dont want to sell cats for breeding to just anyone, but my breeding prices are still inline with most other sibby breeders. As for show nearly every sibby breeder charges more for show I know I paid more for my show cat. Pet price is also normal. I dont know if people know much about the breed on here but they are a new breed, new breeds are always more expensive and you cant compare them to a birman or whatever when these breeds have been around for a long time I mean look at the persian they are probabaly one of the cheapest breeds to buy and also one of the longest standing.
> 
> My Birmans are around £375 pet or pet show and £450 on the active (just breed or breed/show) and Birmans are hard to get the foot markings right for show and so good show I believe are harder to come by than some breeds - I have had kittens of fantastic type, colouring, temperament, eye colour etc but the blooming foot markings are not quite right and so no good for showing, and many breeders I know are the same - some may charge £25 more for show but most don't.
> 
> Other than that - the website is good if a little word heavy. And the links near the stars aren't obvious (I was clicking on the stars and wondering why nothing was happening) and personally I prefer a unified colour scheme rather than each page different but that is a personal choice. I'm sure if you looked at my site you'd find bits you'd do differently yourself.
> I wanted to put as much info on as possible so yes it is alittle but that is what I wanted and also the colour scheme I specifically wanted a different colour each page as no other site I had seen had this, I just like to be different. But I am pleased with the site. I have had lots of good comments from people about it.
> 
> By the way, my little kitten (7 weeks old) is going to a vet nurse (of over 25 years experience) for his new mum - she refuses to feed dry at all, and will only feed hi-quality wet (Nature's Menu in her case) or raw - so horses for courses, and each to their own.


well thats her choice of course, not sure if natures menu is what I would class high quality though, if its the food I am thinking of then they also do dog food which I gave my dogs as a treat for their christmas dinner one year and there poos after it were like cow pats, huge, sloppy and stunks like hell, not the sign of a high quality, easy to digest food but more the opposite and full of fillers by the amount they passsed out the other end. As for raw well not my cup of tea either but like you say each to there own.
Well thanks for the comments I will take them into consideration.
Clare


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## Clare Ferris

rottiesloveragdolls said:


> *Just a tad over the top and with your pricing It shows you are making money out of breeding £250 is your costs without your time so it seems your time is very expensive. I dont know of any breeder who price up Show quality higher than pet quality. and i know a lot of breeders!
> But who am i to judge your ethics each to their own. *


I have not made money as I had one kitten which covered my stud fee of £500 plus as a new breeder i have paid out over £3000 for 3 breeding girls. I had to have everything done for him and feed him etc So I am actually ata huge loss if you must know not that the money comes into it. I am well aware that good breeders dont make much money...so you are seeing it from a different angle to me. I know plenty of people who charge more for show they are pick of the litter and would be good enough for breeding so you are still paying less thn if you got an entire cat for breeding. Oh and its not just sibby people either I know of persian breeders who charge more for show cats!


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Can I ask what in your training do you believe puts you in that position ? I doubt you study genetics, what to look for in pedigrees etc. You may well cover a little on birth, but in my experience qualified *vets *are notoriously bad at anything to do with pregnancy, birth, new born or young kittens because they don't have the training or the experience. I am just curious, how many litters have you had ?
> 
> It put me in a better position to give out care advice to owners etc from a health point of view as I may kno more about health aspects than some other breeders. what pet owner will want to know about genetics and things to do with preganancy?
> I have studied basic genetics actually and read further info myself on the subject, although I dont claim to be an expert. I have experience of rearing newborns through work and I had to rear one baby for two weeks and feed her via stomach tube every tow hours. I now about birthing problems how else would I be able to give out advice to owners on the phone whos pets are having young and they have not a clue what to do.
> I have had one litter but that does not come into it, as I said I have reared many young stray animals through work, yes experience helps and we learn by experience but you also need basic knowledge to go off which is what I am saying I have, can I ask how much you knew when you started breeding?
> 
> I agree with Spid on the comments about being a vet nurse and also agree completely with her comments about your premium for show/breed quality kittens. If it is genuinely a hobby, then importing etc is the cost of the hobby, not the cost of raising a kitten - the only cost a true hobby breeder seeks to recoup.
> 
> I have already explained this, all I will say is witch hunt!
> 
> I also have to say what a load of tosh to your don't buy from people who advertise in newspapers or online with no website. I know loads of breeders who are incredibly well respected, have been breeding for decades who fall into that category!!! A glossy, hard sell website does not equal good breeder!! Sadly more often than not the exact opposite is true.


erm not exactly what do you call all those people advertising in the loot and online I have seen some awful examples of the breed sold cheaply by non registered breeders who dont do half the stuff I do. If they are serious breeders why not have a website or be registered?? there are probably some half decent breeders who advertise in this way but as a general rule from my experience it is rare, Aall the people I work with would advise the same dont touch these people with a barge pole. Most owners cant tell the difference so if they are not sure it is best for them to stear clear if you ask me. But if the breeder is good then they wont have anything to worry about will they as people will see it when they visit there home.
I hope you are not implying my website is a hard sell, whatever that is supposed to mean.lmao


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## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> I think Websites with prices on are very off putting! Esp even saying how much the kitten pack costs!! And, a 40page guide on how to look after my kitten? My goodness :shocked:


Can I ask why? if you go to a shop to buy something then you want to know the price there is nothing more annoying than having to constantly enquire much better they know before getting intouch.
And a 40 page kitten pack booklet which includes contracts etc, what is wrong with that? I compile my own advice booklet so I dont need to use others I am sure if you sent them with something like a buddies pack there booklet has more than 40 pages. There are a lot of pic in this so it is not all full pages of writing. I included a development section for the kitten weekly from birth to 12 weeks and have pictures of what the kittens look like at each stage and an explanation of what happens in each stage this alone takes up 3 pages.
As for putting the price of what my kitten packs cost as someone else mentioned, this is purely so new owners can see what they are getting for there money apack with alot of useful stuff that they will need otherwise if they were paying £500 for a kitten and a few samples of food then that would be over inflated.
I think you have all made your points known and wont agree with me which is fine but I dont feel anything that has been brought up warrants change in my book. My prices are in line with other sibby breeders and I offer alot for the owners money so I dont have a problem with it. Someone said they are inline with bengals? so does that person feel they should be cheaper? sibbys have been in the u.k for about 6 yrs or so and are not aswell known as bengals the more popular a breed gets the lower the price goes and when you consider how many bengals breeders there are now, we are well out numbered. As more breeders pop up and there are alot of new breeders I should know I have been asked for a kitten from alot of people and I have only had my website up 2 months or so then the price will lower in time when they become more popular. But what the price of my cats has to do with anyone else is beyound me, that is my business really I think and concerns only the people wanting to buy one, so thanks for the comments but it is really not necessary to be bringing this up:frown2:


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## Biawhiska

The reason I don't like prices on the site is because it looks like a buisness. Maybe it's just me. Also, yes it is up to you to charge what you want etc... but a £200 price difference for show quality I just don't get that myself.


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> erm not exactly what do you call all those people advertising in the loot and online I have seen some awful examples of the breed sold cheaply by non registered breeders


So based on that *limited *experience you make sweeping generalisations about every breeder. Its also naive to try and maintain that registered breeder -good, unregistered breeder - bad. Being registered is not a certicate of excellence, in reality a lot of bad breeders hide behind that fact. As a vet nurse you should be aware that the cats health and welfare is paramount in any breeding program so are you telling me that a non registered breeder who only as a couple of queens from which they only have one litter a year, where their kittens are well socialised, healthy, vaccinated, wormed etc and are found loving permanent homes with a life time support from the breeder is worse than a registered breeder who works like a kitten factory (and there are MANY of those) churning out unhealthy inbred babies that once out of their home they could not give a toss about ?

I notice you haven't answered my questions about how many litters you have had, which is 1 isn't it, nor what in your training makes you better than any other new breeder.

You say you are not trying to claim you are better than everyone else because of your profession but in nearly every statement you make you contradict that. Cats-Siberian-RegisteredBreederSale in litherland Merseyside ENGLAND

http://pets.vivastreet.co.uk/buy-pe...igree-siberian-kittens-from-druzhina/14656165

You obviously view the fact you are a vet nurse as an important sales point - you feel the need to mention it twice!! - but you don't explain why! As a breeder I would want my cats and kittens to speak for themselves, rather than as a sales pitch for me as the breeder. Having a driving license does not make you a good driver!!!


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> Someone said they are inline with bengals? so does that person feel they should be cheaper? sibbys have been in the u.k for about 6 yrs or so and are not aswell known as bengals the more popular a breed gets the lower the price goes and when you consider how many bengals breeders there are now, we are well out numbered. As more breeders pop up and there are alot of new breeders I should know I have been asked for a kitten from alot of people and I have only had my website up 2 months or so then the price will lower in time when they become more popular. But what the price of my cats has to do with anyone else is beyound me, that is my business really I think and concerns only the people wanting to buy one, so thanks for the comments but it is really not necessary to be bringing this up:frown2:


The reason Bengals were mentioned is because there are a number of unscrupulous breeders charging an exhorbitant premium for show/breed kittens. This encourages people to start breeding not because they love the breed, but because they think they can make huge sums of money. They see kittens advertised for over £1000, don't mind that outlay, but view it as an investment making it back by selling all their kittens active, probably to people of like mind, regardless of quality, for the same price and so it goes on!! Decent bengal breeders are doing their level best to stamp that out.

Your statement that you get lots of enquiries from new breeders who want a kitten proves that point!


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## Milly22

Fairly locally to me their is a Vet who breeds Ragdolls, as he is a Vet he adds an extra £150 onto his Ragdolls. I wonder if he gives discount to all his buyers on any future treatment.


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## Saikou

If thats the reason he adds a premium to his kittens, thats surely unethical  Still nowt as queer as folk as they say, I suppose some people will use any angle to give their kittens the edge over others. At the end of the day its buyer beware really.


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## Kalipha

This has all gotten a little out of hand and off topic.

The breeders I got Lily from were excellent, they were very informative and helpful (got a scare when Lils developed a lump within a day of getting home, turned out to be a reaction to her vaccination), they've given good aftercare and are always there to speak to and the first to text me on the day of her first show wishing good luck and so on. Their cats are their pride and toy and all wonderfully healthy, and yet they'd get right stick here because they're in the 'dry food with wet as occasional treat' camp.

I got an RC kitten pack with Lily. They've aparantly quite recently changed, from giving an actual bag of food to give the owner to vouchers. Lily's breeders weren't too pleased at this and neither would I be - it's nice to send the kitten away with something you can actually put in its dish when she gets home, to settle her in.

I'm planning on giving a tub of raw (whichever flavour the kitten seemed to be liking beest) and then a sample bag of Orijen (the dry I use during the day). I'm not eligable for a breeder program yet, will need to look into it at the time to see if Orijen's one gives actual bags of food rather than vouchers.


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## spid

Clare Ferris said:


> well thats her choice of course, not sure if natures menu is what I would class high quality though, if its the food I am thinking of then they also do dog food which I gave my dogs as a treat for their christmas dinner one year and there poos after it were like cow pats, huge, sloppy and stunks like hell, not the sign of a high quality, easy to digest food but more the opposite and full of fillers by the amount they passsed out the other end. As for raw well not my cup of tea either but like you say each to there own.
> Well thanks for the comments I will take them into consideration.
> Clare


Yes it is her choice, and the fact that she is also a vet nurse with a decade and a bit more experience than you means that she has more experience and training to call upon. Nature's Menu is 70% meat (not the 4% rubbish of Whiskas and Felix) and is a very good food. I feed it to my cats and they have never had the runs. As a vet nurse, I'm sure you know that you should never change an animals diet quickly (even for a treat) or they can end up with the runs - maybe it was that not the food that gave your dogs the runs. I also feed raw and that is fantastic -their coats art in glorious condition and they are happy contented - I have done masses of research (and you don't have to be a scientist to do it) and I personally am convinced of the benefits.



Clare Ferris said:


> I have not made money as I had one kitten which covered my stud fee of £500 plus as a new breeder i have paid out over £3000 for 3 breeding girls. I had to have everything done for him and feed him etc So I am actually ata huge loss if you must know not that the money comes into it. I am well aware that good breeders dont make much money...so you are seeing it from a different angle to me. I know plenty of people who charge more for show they are pick of the litter and would be good enough for breeding so you are still paying less thn if you got an entire cat for breeding. Oh and its not just sibby people either I know of persian breeders who charge more for show cats!


Neither have Imade a 'profit;' yet - nor do Iexpect to anywhere in the foreseeable future. The point about your show cats was that for show NEUTERS you were still cahrging £200 more. And only for potential. You 'think' they should make champion but you don't guarentee it (as you can't) but you still want £200 more. Personally, I think that is taking the 'customer' for a ride - if the cat does well it is you who gets the quodos because of your prefix, if it doesn't the owner gets fed up of being placed last and bows out of the system and probably ends up regretting the £200 extra.



Clare Ferris said:


> erm not exactly what do you call all those people advertising in the loot and online I have seen some awful examples of the breed sold cheaply by non registered breeders who dont do half the stuff I do. If they are serious breeders why not have a website or be registered?? there are probably some half decent breeders who advertise in this way but as a general rule from my experience it is rare, Aall the people I work with would advise the same dont touch these people with a barge pole. Most owners cant tell the difference so if they are not sure it is best for them to stear clear if you ask me. But if the breeder is good then they wont have anything to worry about will they as people will see it when they visit there home.


I advertise on line - pets4homes, kittymania etc - if not no-one would know where my website was. I pride myself on a great home and encourage people to come and visit. I'm registered with GCCF and TICA and I'm an honest, hardworking 'breeder'. But I have to advertise somewhere - doesn't make me shoddy, or unreliable etc. Many registered 'reputable' breeders advertise online. I alsop have seen bad quality pets being sold by unregistered breeders - some don't even look Birman - but . . . that doesn't mean mine are. Don't tar us all with the same brush.



Clare Ferris said:


> My prices are in line with other sibby breeders and I offer alot for the owners money so I dont have a problem with it. *Someone said *they are inline with bengals? so does that person feel they should be cheaper? sibbys have been in the u.k for about 6 yrs or so and are not aswell known as bengals the more popular a breed gets the lower the price goes and when you consider how many bengals breeders there are now, we are well out numbered. As more breeders pop up and there are alot of new breeders I should know I have been asked for a kitten from alot of people and I have only had my website up 2 months or so then the price will lower in time when they become more popular. But what the price of my cats has to do with anyone else is beyound me, that is my business really I think and concerns only the people wanting to buy one, so thanks for the comments but it is really not necessary to be bringing this up:frown2:


That would be me, *Spid*, I'm the one who mentioned Bengals (if you scroll down the thread you get to see who posted what) - not because your prices are in line but, as Saikou says, because the huge discrepency between pet and breed is the factor that brought loads of BYB of Benglas into the fore. Registered some as well. I mean Benglas can have large litters - seven isn't unheard of - sell each on the active at over £1K each and you've made a tidy sum - people will look at the Sibs prices and think the same. They won't do the reasearch - will possibly buy a brother and sister and just let them get on with it. Greed rules. Obviously not your problem if that's the Sibs world process but that's why you have a lot of calls about breeding - I've not been doing this long (3 years now) but in all that time, over many, many enquiries, I've only had one for breeding. Do I feel your prices should be cheaper? For pet show (neuters) then yes I do, and for breed possibly. I know your hike in prices would put off a lot of people who are genuine and encourage a lot who aren't. What business is it of ours?? Well, you asked for feedback on your website so you made it our business.

We are ACTUALLY all here to help and to educate and also to learn. So we are presenting you with ideas and arguments about why we think the way we do about certain aspects food, pirces etc. Whether you are open-minded enough to fully consider these things before you dismiss them is only known to you. I joined this site resonably uneducated (in a cat way), read, took advice (not on face value), went away and did research, found other forums and discussion site, looked into the genetics of cats, their evolution etc, the rise and rise of the pet food manufacturing industry, investigated ingredients, bought expensive vet written books to gather my own conclusions, taken note of anecdotal evidence from friends and my own eyes and THEN came to the conclusions I have. I've spoken to vets, vet nurse, genetists (I personally know two - one of whom worked on the human genome project, and has a huge interest in evolution and the effect of modern food on the body - both have a degree *each* from Oxford AND Cambridge and doctorates from Cambs too). I'm degree educated, I'm a teacher specialising in teaching those kids the system has failed to read - so not thick - I have an IQ of over 140, and I'm dyslexic. *But . . . all of that is irrelevant *- I don't assume I know better than anyone else and I go and do the reasearch when presented with new evidence. I came to this site thinking dry was best and most convenient and have learnt from it, I now personaly believe raw is the way to go - but am useless at defrosting it every day (short term memory dyslexia problems). I too have had over *43 years *experience of cats - I had my first cat at the age of 6 months - I've witnessed births, illness and deaths from our family pets and now from my Birman. But i was still willing to learn and engage and chat - I've been on here and other sites asking advice that I know- because it was my cat involved and I couldn't distance myself. I've taken and given advice. I've listened and adapted and evolved myself.

IF you give us a chance we can be one of the best resources you will find - we won't always agree and sometimes there are spats - but, hey hoe, that's life. If we were all the same what a boring world it would be.

Nuff said - my finger tips hurt.


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## Biawhiska

beautiful pedigree siberian kittens from druzhina Cat for sale Seaforth - L21

in capitals too BRED BY VET NURSE. I'm sorry but that wouldn't make me think "well, i must choose this breeder then" and I also don't get adverts where people must mention show winning lines etc etc ... just cuz your cat has won titles with tica is it? doen't mean the kittens will be show winning.


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## Kalipha

Guys, ease off, it just ain't worth it  Also:



Biawhiska said:


> I also don't get adverts where people must mention show winning lines etc etc ... just cuz your cat has won titles with tica is it? doen't mean the kittens will be show winning.


If it's worth nothing, why do we go out of our way to choose breeding girls who will do well on the show bench? Because we're choosing the best in the hops it will produce good kittens. If I was looking for a girl and had the choice of one from a line all showing horrible type and getting slated on the bench and one with a Imp Gr Champ dam and lots of high titled ancestors, is it really unreasonable or stupid to think the latter might have the stronger genes and be the better choice? I think it's getting to the stage where people are picking for the sake of picking.

Yes, shouting about your proffession as if it should imply you're in any way a better breeder than anyone else is just stupid and laughable. No, I don't approve of a premium for a cat when the buyer says she wants to show. As it happens I have no issue with a small (maybe £200) premium for active, as certainly the breeders I got Lily from actually went to extra lengths to help pick the right girl (having her looked at by two judges before they would sell her etc). But the kind of extended laying into someone we're getting here makes everyone look bad.


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## ShannonLouise.

Im sure Whiskas and Felix do free kitten packs.


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## Biawhiska

ShannonLouise. said:


> Im sure Whiskas and Felix do free kitten packs.


They do but usually just for one kitten. They are talking about the packs breeders get to give out with their kittens once they've sold them


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## Biawhiska

Kalipha said:


> Guys, ease off, it just ain't worth it  Also:
> 
> If it's worth nothing, why do we go out of our way to choose breeding girls who will do well on the show bench? Because we're choosing the best in the hops it will produce good kittens. If I was looking for a girl and had the choice of one from a line all showing horrible type and getting slated on the bench and one with a Imp Gr Champ dam and lots of high titled ancestors, is it really unreasonable or stupid to think the latter might have the stronger genes and be the better choice? I think it's getting to the stage where people are picking for the sake of picking.
> 
> Yes, shouting about your proffession as if it should imply you're in any way a better breeder than anyone else is just stupid and laughable. No, I don't approve of a premium for a cat when the buyer says she wants to show. As it happens I have no issue with a small (maybe £200) premium for active, as certainly the breeders I got Lily from actually went to extra lengths to help pick the right girl (having her looked at by two judges before they would sell her etc). But the kind of extended laying into someone we're getting here makes everyone look bad.


Not everyone chooses a cat to breed from that will do well on the show bench. Surely it's the pedigree you want to be looking at and what the cat can produce when put with a certain stud? Some of the best queens can be quite plain, not too flashy but put with the correct boy and you can have your self a show kitten.

I am just saying that stating how many champions are in the pedigree just sounds like a sales gimmick to me.

I am not picking for the sake of it. I am just saying what I think, I am sorry for speaking my mind! The adverts and website is public and so I'm saying my thoughts.


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## ShannonLouise.

Biawhiska said:


> They do but usually just for one kitten. They are talking about the packs breeders get to give out with their kittens once they've sold them


Oh. My bad


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## Biawhiska

ShannonLouise. said:


> Oh. My bad


well you are right!!!! just not for the purpose of what the thread started off on lol... i am not allowed anymore felix or whiskas packs, i've had too many from them LOL


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## Cat_Crazy

I was shocked to read that you charge 100 pounds to be added to the waiting list.

I understand charging deposits when reserving a kitten but before they are even born or perhaps bred seems silly.

What if you only have a small litter or not the type of kitten they wanted?

How many deposits would you have to hand back?

You also state the deposit is non-refundable so if someone wanted a specific colour kitten from you and it took you 2 years before getting that kitten in a litter does that mean the buyer has to hang on waiting and can't look elsewhere due to the deposit you required?

In my opinion a deposit is only taken once the kittens are born and you have screened potential owners and matched kitten personalities to homes etc.


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## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> If it's worth nothing, why do we go out of our way to choose breeding girls who will do well on the show bench? Because we're choosing the best in the hops it will produce good kittens. If I was looking for a girl and had the choice of one from a line all showing horrible type and getting slated on the bench and one with a Imp Gr Champ dam and lots of high titled ancestors, is it really unreasonable or stupid to think the latter might have the stronger genes and be the better choice?


It does depend on the breed, but certainly in siamese and orientals, the best "show" girls do not always make the best queens. Also as they have maternity duties making an entire girl up to a high title is also not easy. If I were choosing a queen I look for a correct one with a lovely temperament and the kind of pedigree I am looking for. If I can have a bit of fun with her on the show bench then thats a bonus.

Show winning lines also does not really mean anything in reality. It doesn't mean anything to pet buyers, which lets face it for most breeders represents a good 90% or more of those people looking for kittens. It doesn't also guarantee or imply that the offspring will be show quality. Not every Imp Gr Ch throws the same type as they are. When I started out a breeder said to me, if you see a nice cat, don't go to him, go to his father - for that reason.

At the end of the day even a high title does not necessarily mean quality. For the most part it does, but then there are those cats who gain titles they don't deserve for any number of reasons. To show winning lines really does mean nothing, its little more than a sales gimmick. The same as claims of excellent lines etc. A load of titles in a pedigree does not say great temperament or health both of which are far more important than a kitten conforming to a certain standard of points.

On the other points, the poster has requested peoples feed back and has gotten what she asked for. A number of times, this really old thread has been taken back to topic and its said poster themselves that takes it off topic again.


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## Kalipha

It's odd, I've seen someone on here say they are planning to breed for "health and type and the best kittens I can" but that they don't plan to show. They were instantly jumped on by at least one party saying "then how can you know you're producing good kittens". It's interesting if there really no connection. Do all breeders only show for their own amusement and nothing to do with the kittens they produce at all?

Just trying to make sense out of conflicting information.


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## Saikou

Well if you state you are breeding for the best type, then you would need something to guage that by


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## Biawhiska

People show for various reasons. As I said you don't need to buy a show stopper to show. You can show your nice average balanced girl with a nice ped who you plan to breed from. Showing is where you can then see the other cats of your breed and see what you want to aim for. Winning and gettng titles isn't the be all and end all. I do think you should go to some shows if you want to breed otherwise how do you know what you're wanting to breed? unless you are happy breeding pet quality and not improving etc and trying to fit the SOP. I Guess it all depends on the breeder and what they want to achieve with their breeding.


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## Kalipha

Thanks for the info, was just trying to reconcile those two lines. So showing is important, but show *success* is not important?


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## messyhearts

Kalipha said:


> Thanks for the info, was just trying to reconcile those two lines. So showing is important, but show *success* is not important?


Health & temperament are most important, I would have thought! Show success is good for advertising & showing at all increases knowledge of the breed. Success would, in theory, confirm type as being correct but judges differ anyway.

Just catching up on this thread. £1000 for an active kitten of any breed is pretty scary! £500 stud fees???? £100 to be on a waiting list??? Sibs are very cute & I hope to God they don't end up like the Bengal with all this. I know Maine Coon stud fees are about £100 to £150.

I paid an extra £100 for a show neuter & was happy to do so as I felt I had support, the right kitten & everything was just right so the tag didn't matter but I wouldn't have paid any more & would expect the same fee if he was active!! I didn't want a stud so that was irrelevant at the time.

I also got my first show kitten for £350 & she has a title at the age of a year & has yet to lose an open class & came from a very well known breeder of the breed who didn't take advantage of that fact.

Sorry but I wouldn't pay more than the going rate for a pet kitten from a new breeder. I would only consider paying more for a kitten from a known prefix that I already was aware of if they were willing to offer me an active kitten. My next kitten will be active so will be looking at prices like this. It doesn't cost more to raise a show or active kitten so why should the new owner be ripped off for it? The price shouldn't be used, either, to discourage people to breed as it should be the breeder who decides if someone is good enough to own an active kitten. You see so many active queens on websites for sale as part of package deals & it is so sad to see as you can see people will have ££ in their eyes when they read the adverts.


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## Kalipha

messyhearts said:


> £500 stud fees???? ... I know Maine Coon stud fees are about £100 to £150.


Egyptian Mau stud fees are £450 pretty much across the board. I think it's because (same as Sibs) they've not been in the UK that long and all studs have to be imported at massive cost.


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## Clare Ferris

This post is a general one to all those I have had tonight as I really can't be bothered anymore replying individually. I am getting pretty sick of all the back lash I am getting, yes I did ask for opinions because I was interested to know what the hell was offensive. I am not going to be ashamed of saying I am a vet nurse it does give me an edge from a health care point of view actually despite what others may say. Someone asked me why my training makes me more knowledgable than the average person in relation to breeding cats, well thats seems like a silly question we do learn alot you know not just how to hold animals for vets and make tea! I am a registered nurse and have had to sit exams so I must have studied something and this did involve breeding related subjects. I have written my own kitten packs not used pre written ones by pet food companies so in order to do that I must know something surely. 
Now once again I am not saying it makes me a better breeder than others and all good breeders go into it with the best intentions, but I may know things about disease and cat care, behaviour, birthing problems etc because of my training compared with other new breeders. I did not seek any advice when my cat gave birth because I did not need to I was happy with what I was doing. I have had an established sibby breeder say to me at a show...... oh your a vet nurse I wish I had your knowledge when I was starting out so it sort of gives you a step up I think but I still have alot to learn and appreciate constructive advice not the sort of criticism I am now getting. I could turn round and say you experienced breeders think you know more than vets but I wouldnt want to start another argument, oh can I ask because I was wondering... what is the difference between me saying im a vet nurse and someone saying I have 15 yrs breeding experience are they not also stating they know more just because they have been breeding a long time. This to me also does not ensure they are good breeders!
People who have researched alot and been doing it for years may be very knowledgeable and believe it or not I do have friends who fall into this category that I do ask for advice so whilst I am new to actual breeding and the whole showing etc I know enough about rearing kittens correctly regardless of breed it does not make kitten rearing that different because you have a pedigree over a moggy or whatever. There are two new breeders who have came to me for advice also and I will say I am not sure but I can find out for you if I dont know the answer. 
Yes I have had alot of enquiries from new breeders but that does not mean I will sell to them I have not sold any for breeding and do not plan to unless I know the person is going to be doing things correctly. Registering your cattery, showing, websites etc are all things most good breeders do and byb dont do because they see it as unecessary expense now obviously there will be good non registered breeders and vice versa but I would be more likely sell a kitten to the reg. breeder than a non registered one unless ofcourse I knew the person and knew they were ethical. 
My kitten just left me today and the new owner was very happy with everything, now I ask for them to get a health check when home with own vet but she has said she trusts me and does not feel the need and has said because of my profession she is alot more comfortable buying a kitten from me than just going and viewing them with a breeder she did not know and hoping for the best, she was previously stung by one breeder so I am very flattered that she feels this way. So it is not me thinking I am better some people actually do appreciate my training! I dont put myself on a pedistle and think I am better at all, I know some people might find that hard to believe or not want to believe it but you dont know me so how can you possibly judge me.
I know it does not guarantee my cats are healthy just because I advertise the fact and I always encourage new owners to visit and make their own minds up. My site is an advertisement for my hobby not a money making site. I am very proud of my show girls line and they are very sort after here and abroad. Why are the highest show titled cats always the ones that appear in alot of pedigrees? because we put our cats to them in the hope to better the breed and produce kittens of similar type. Health is first and foremost ofcourse but if you show they also need to fit the standard. Most people I know wont approach a breeder that does not show and have atleast some titles as unless you know the breed very well you would assume their cats did not meet the standard. Breeders who produce many show winners always get more enquiries than ones that dont in my opinion.
As for my prices I am not the only sibby breeder who charges these prices, I may look at these again in the future but you will always expect to pay more for a sibby than a more common breed thats the way it is, and before anyones says no thats not why I chose the breed because I know thats what some of you may think. I did not even know the price of breeding cats as my first one was a show neuter whom I paid extra for because he was pick of the litter. I assume that is why breeders charge more for show cats otherwise you could just get given anything, the breeder is giving you a cat that they may have kept themselves so I would expect to pay more. 
All my info etc has been put on inline with other sibby breeders and what they do. I did look into this before I chose my prices and the deposit fee. I take the deposit when I expect a litter and only if the person is prepared to wait, if someone has a very specific requirement then I would keep them on the list now if nothing came up after a few matings then they could have a refund but I would be more likely to not take the deposit in this case untill I had the kitten they wanted, whats on my site is a generalisation and there are always exceptions to this, so it is not a hard and fast rule. The current kitten owner paid her deposit and no questions asked she was happy with me and prepared to wait as she did not want to go anywhere else, atleast I know they are serious if they pay it otherwise you end up with alot of time wasters, so many people decide to get a kitten shop round and go with the first person who has kittens without doing research as they want a cat now and wont wait. I dont want my kittens going to someone who wants a cat now on a whim and I am not the only breeder who has this view so asking for a deposit if they are serious I do not see a problem with!
I joined this forum for one reason and it was to speak to like minded people and hopefully have people to turn to for advice if I need it believe it or not. Now I am on breed specific sites and dont have this sort of response so maybe it is the fact that we all breed different things. Unless you breed sibbies please dont comment anymore on my prices as I dont think you can give an honest argument. 
Have I backlashed anyone saying god your cats are cheap. I am not sure if entirely agree with the statement that it encourages byb because of the price. It may do in some cases but it works both ways. I would say there are more byb of the most common breeds because they see a market for selling them and can get them cheap. I see it alot with persians who come in my work from breeders who dont breed good examples and they are one of the cheaper breeds so it works both ways.
I think what one person said about nit picking is true, you are all ganging up on a new breeder/forum member because she has different views to yourselves so I must automatically be wrong. None of us are wrong we do what we believe is best and I wonted be forced to change what my beliefs are becasue someone thinks they can give me abuse on here, it wont work with me sorry.
If anyone has anything productive to say that does not come across as cruel criticism then I would love to hear them otherwise can we all just end this discussion now it is becoming very tiresome and completely of subject. I did not realise when I posted original comment that it was an old one so I apologise for dragging up past posts
Clare


----------



## Clare Ferris

messyhearts said:


> Health & temperament are most important, I would have thought! Show success is good for advertising & showing at all increases knowledge of the breed. Success would, in theory, confirm type as being correct but judges differ anyway.
> 
> Just catching up on this thread. £1000 for an active kitten of any breed is pretty scary! £500 stud fees???? £100 to be on a waiting list??? Sibs are very cute & I hope to God they don't end up like the Bengal with all this. I know Maine Coon stud fees are about £100 to £150.
> 
> I paid an extra £100 for a show neuter & was happy to do so as I felt I had support, the right kitten & everything was just right so the tag didn't matter but I wouldn't have paid any more & would expect the same fee if he was active!! I didn't want a stud so that was irrelevant at the time.
> 
> I also got my first show kitten for £350 & she has a title at the age of a year & has yet to lose an open class & came from a very well known breeder of the breed who didn't take advantage of that fact.
> 
> Sorry but I wouldn't pay more than the going rate for a pet kitten from a new breeder. I would only consider paying more for a kitten from a known prefix that I already was aware of if they were willing to offer me an active kitten. My next kitten will be active so will be looking at prices like this. It doesn't cost more to raise a show or active kitten so why should the new owner be ripped off for it? The price shouldn't be used, either, to discourage people to breed as it should be the breeder who decides if someone is good enough to own an active kitten. You see so many active queens on websites for sale as part of package deals & it is so sad to see as you can see people will have ££ in their eyes when they read the adverts.


£500 is the going rate for a sibby pet kitten if you look online, (maybe £450 at the lowest) I have seen some at £300 but that is not the norm and the cats are not from known acteries and says nothing about reg so I dont think I would want a kitten from them. i was looking at importing a stud from Italy and the breeder wanted £1500 just for the cat then all the export costs and care for 6 months, total over £3000 now thats expensive and although he had a world ch stud as the father he was not at the fore front of showing/breeding catteries. I put my prices on inline with other breeders now if it turns out that other are changing their prices and lowering them i will also but I am not over charging just inline with others I know of.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> Not everyone chooses a cat to breed from that will do well on the show bench. Surely it's the pedigree you want to be looking at and what the cat can produce when put with a certain stud? Some of the best queens can be quite plain, not too flashy but put with the correct boy and you can have your self a show kitten.
> 
> I am just saying that stating how many champions are in the pedigree just sounds like a sales gimmick to me.
> 
> I am not picking for the sake of it. I am just saying what I think, I am sorry for speaking my mind! The adverts and website is public and so I'm saying my thoughts.


oh I dont shout about my profession and do not feel it is laughable or stupid, I find that comment very offensive to be honest.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> Not everyone chooses a cat to breed from that will do well on the show bench. Surely it's the pedigree you want to be looking at and what the cat can produce when put with a certain stud? Some of the best queens can be quite plain, not too flashy but put with the correct boy and you can have your self a show kitten.
> 
> I am just saying that stating how many champions are in the pedigree just sounds like a sales gimmick to me.
> 
> I am not picking for the sake of it. I am just saying what I think, I am sorry for speaking my mind! The adverts and website is public and so I'm saying my thoughts.


I just wanted to ask- do you have cats with titles? or do you even show


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> So based on that *limited *experience you make sweeping generalisations about every breeder. Its also naive to try and maintain that registered breeder -good, unregistered breeder - bad. Being registered is not a certicate of excellence, in reality a lot of bad breeders hide behind that fact. As a vet nurse you should be aware that the cats health and welfare is paramount in any breeding program so are you telling me that a non registered breeder who only as a couple of queens from which they only have one litter a year, where their kittens are well socialised, healthy, vaccinated, wormed etc and are found loving permanent homes with a life time support from the breeder is worse than a registered breeder who works like a kitten factory (and there are MANY of those) churning out unhealthy inbred babies that once out of their home they could not give a toss about ?
> 
> I notice you haven't answered my questions about how many litters you have had, which is 1 isn't it, nor what in your training makes you better than any other new breeder.
> 
> You say you are not trying to claim you are better than everyone else because of your profession but in nearly every statement you make you contradict that. Cats-Siberian-RegisteredBreederSale in litherland Merseyside ENGLAND
> 
> beautiful pedigree siberian kittens from druzhina Cat for sale Seaforth - L21
> 
> You obviously view the fact you are a vet nurse as an important sales point - you feel the need to mention it twice!! - but you don't explain why! As a breeder I would want my cats and kittens to speak for themselves, rather than as a sales pitch for me as the breeder. Having a driving license does not make you a good driver!!!


I take your point and once again that does not mean every non registered breeder is bad but why not register if you have nothing to hide I dont get that. I see alot more byb unregistered than registered and there may be exceptions to this but in my experience I would say this is rare. I see it everyday where I work remember, cats and dog breeders unreg, and just putting tow animals together with no concern for health.:frown2:


----------



## Clare Ferris

Clare Ferris said:


> I take your point and once again that does not mean every non registered breeder is bad but why not register if you have nothing to hide I dont get that. I see alot more byb unregistered than registered and there may be exceptions to this but in my experience I would say this is rare. I see it everyday where I work remember, cats and dog breeders unreg, and just putting two animals together with no concern for health.:frown2:


Oh and as for the vet nurse quote being on twice I did not put it on twice i sent my details to this site and they placed the add so I can only assume it was a miss print, why would I put it on twice, just incase they did not get the message first time. Oh I dont like you implying that im not a good breeder you dont know me, I assume thats what you are getting at with the whole driving thing?
Do you have some sort of problem with the vet profession?


----------



## Biawhiska

Clare Ferris said:


> oh I dont shout about my profession and do not feel it is laughable or stupid, I find that comment very offensive to be honest.


me neither, didn't say it was.


----------



## Biawhiska

Clare Ferris said:


> I just wanted to ask- do you have cats with titles? or do you even show


You can, why is it important to you?
I Can answer yes to both


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> This post is a general one to all those I have had tonight as I really can't be bothered anymore replying individually.


and yet you have, as well as answering yourself 



Clare Ferris said:


> I am not going to be ashamed of saying I am a vet nurse it does give me an edge from a health care point of view actually despite what others may say.


I really hope you don't fall off that very high pedestal you have placed yourself on 



Clare Ferris said:


> My kitten just left me today and the new owner was very happy with everything, now I ask for them to get a health check when home with own vet but she has said she trusts me and does not feel the need and has said because of my profession she is alot more comfortable buying a kitten from me than just going and viewing them with a breeder she did not know and hoping for the best, she was previously stung by one breeder so I am very flattered that she feels this way.


I think you have misunderstood the point of advising the new owners to take the kitten to the vet. You comments imply that other breeders kittens are sold unhealthy and need to go to the vet for a check! Most breeders kittens are VET checked the day before they go to their new homes, I know mine are. The point of going with new kitten to the vet is not so they can pick up any illnesses, but to register the kitten with their vet ready, incase they do have to go at a later date - and even you can not guarantee that kitten you have sold will not need a vet at some point in the future. Having seen the kitten bright and happy and healthy, the vet has a reference point for any future visits.



Clare Ferris said:


> Someone asked me why my training makes me more knowledgable than the average person in relation to breeding cats, well thats seems like a silly question we do learn alot you know not just how to hold animals for vets and make tea!


Yet you still haven't answered. Exactly what topics pertinent to breeding ? I am genuinely interested. As I have said vets know very little about pregnancy, birth, neonates etc. Any experienced breeder would tell you that. So what is different in a vet nurse training. Is there anything in that training that a new breeder doing appropriate research prior to having their first litter wouldn't know ? You may well not have needed any help with an easish first birth, no new breeder would, lets be honest here, most cats can handle birth by themselves!!!! Its Mother Nature is it not. The species would have died out if birth was only successful if a vet nurse was present . I too managed my first and subsequent litters by myself :thumbup1: but I am just a mere Senior Systems Analyst. 

I have to say though, reading your attitude towards other breeders, and what your practice obviously thinks of breeders in general, I am glad I don't have to use them. After reading some of the things on here, I would be looking for a new vet. The arrogant attitude from the representatives from the veterinary profession we have had on here leaves me cold and is everything that is wrong with the veterinary profession today in my humble opinion.

Good luck to you, I just hope you manage to keep your mind open long enough to actually learn something from experienced breeders who have had more that one kitten and who have personally experienced far more than you can ever read in a text book!!


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## Biawhiska

I worked as a temp on the labour ward for a few months some years back, therefore i MUST be more able to cope with cats giving birth, better than all these breeders with YEARS of experience  lol, what you say says the same to me.

So what, you've learnt to be a vet nurse but you've had ONE litter. Kim isn't a VET NURSE and has had plenty of litters. I know who I think is in a better situation to give advice etc...

I do not like your tone and I think that's what's got my hackles up on this thread. And on the other thread where you ended with..

Clare RVN (oh please!)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/introductions/74042-hi-fellow-cat-lovers-breeders.html


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## messyhearts

Clare Ferris said:


> £500 is the going rate for a sibby pet kitten if you look online, (maybe £450 at the lowest) I have seen some at £300 but that is not the norm and the cats are not from known acteries and says nothing about reg so I dont think I would want a kitten from them. i was looking at importing a stud from Italy and the breeder wanted £1500 just for the cat then all the export costs and care for 6 months, total over £3000 now thats expensive and although he had a world ch stud as the father he was not at the fore front of showing/breeding catteries. I put my prices on inline with other breeders now if it turns out that other are changing their prices and lowering them i will also but I am not over charging just inline with others I know of.


Oh I know Sibs are dear. Just a shame that they are. I suspect that people like that Italian breeder push prices up because of the rare factor. Does it genuinely cost that Italian breeder that much to raise a kitten? I know it is expensive to import but just seems ridiculous & makes me glad that I fell for breeds that are established & not got silly price tags.


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## Milly22

Clare Ferris said:


> This post is a general one to all those I have had tonight as I really can't be bothered anymore replying individually. I am getting pretty sick of all the back lash I am getting, yes I did ask for opinions because I was interested to know what the hell was offensive. I am not going to be ashamed of saying I am a vet nurse it does give me an edge from a health care point of view actually despite what others may say. Someone asked me why my training makes me more knowledgable than the average person in relation to breeding cats, well thats seems like a silly question we do learn alot you know not just how to hold animals for vets and make tea! I am a registered nurse and have had to sit exams so I must have studied something and this did involve breeding related subjects. I have written my own kitten packs not used pre written ones by pet food companies so in order to do that I must know something surely.
> Now once again I am not saying it makes me a better breeder than others and all good breeders go into it with the best intentions, but I may know things about disease and cat care, behaviour, birthing problems etc because of my training compared with other new breeders. I did not seek any advice when my cat gave birth because I did not need to I was happy with what I was doing. I have had an established sibby breeder say to me at a show...... oh your a vet nurse I wish I had your knowledge when I was starting out so it sort of gives you a step up I think but I still have alot to learn and appreciate constructive advice not the sort of criticism I am now getting. I could turn round and say you experienced breeders think you know more than vets but I wouldnt want to start another argument, oh can I ask because I was wondering... what is the difference between me saying im a vet nurse and someone saying I have 15 yrs breeding experience are they not also stating they know more just because they have been breeding a long time. This to me also does not ensure they are good breeders!
> People who have researched alot and been doing it for years may be very knowledgeable and believe it or not I do have friends who fall into this category that I do ask for advice so whilst I am new to actual breeding and the whole showing etc I know enough about rearing kittens correctly regardless of breed it does not make kitten rearing that different because you have a pedigree over a moggy or whatever. There are two new breeders who have came to me for advice also and I will say I am not sure but I can find out for you if I dont know the answer.
> Yes I have had alot of enquiries from new breeders but that does not mean I will sell to them I have not sold any for breeding and do not plan to unless I know the person is going to be doing things correctly. Registering your cattery, showing, websites etc are all things most good breeders do and byb dont do because they see it as unecessary expense now obviously there will be good non registered breeders and vice versa but I would be more likely sell a kitten to the reg. breeder than a non registered one unless ofcourse I knew the person and knew they were ethical.
> My kitten just left me today and the new owner was very happy with everything, now I ask for them to get a health check when home with own vet but she has said she trusts me and does not feel the need and has said because of my profession she is alot more comfortable buying a kitten from me than just going and viewing them with a breeder she did not know and hoping for the best, she was previously stung by one breeder so I am very flattered that she feels this way. So it is not me thinking I am better some people actually do appreciate my training! I dont put myself on a pedistle and think I am better at all, I know some people might find that hard to believe or not want to believe it but you dont know me so how can you possibly judge me.
> I know it does not guarantee my cats are healthy just because I advertise the fact and I always encourage new owners to visit and make their own minds up. My site is an advertisement for my hobby not a money making site. I am very proud of my show girls line and they are very sort after here and abroad. Why are the highest show titled cats always the ones that appear in alot of pedigrees? because we put our cats to them in the hope to better the breed and produce kittens of similar type. Health is first and foremost ofcourse but if you show they also need to fit the standard. Most people I know wont approach a breeder that does not show and have atleast some titles as unless you know the breed very well you would assume their cats did not meet the standard. Breeders who produce many show winners always get more enquiries than ones that dont in my opinion.
> As for my prices I am not the only sibby breeder who charges these prices, I may look at these again in the future but you will always expect to pay more for a sibby than a more common breed thats the way it is, and before anyones says no thats not why I chose the breed because I know thats what some of you may think. I did not even know the price of breeding cats as my first one was a show neuter whom I paid extra for because he was pick of the litter. I assume that is why breeders charge more for show cats otherwise you could just get given anything, the breeder is giving you a cat that they may have kept themselves so I would expect to pay more.
> All my info etc has been put on inline with other sibby breeders and what they do. I did look into this before I chose my prices and the deposit fee. I take the deposit when I expect a litter and only if the person is prepared to wait, if someone has a very specific requirement then I would keep them on the list now if nothing came up after a few matings then they could have a refund but I would be more likely to not take the deposit in this case untill I had the kitten they wanted, whats on my site is a generalisation and there are always exceptions to this, so it is not a hard and fast rule. The current kitten owner paid her deposit and no questions asked she was happy with me and prepared to wait as she did not want to go anywhere else, atleast I know they are serious if they pay it otherwise you end up with alot of time wasters, so many people decide to get a kitten shop round and go with the first person who has kittens without doing research as they want a cat now and wont wait. I dont want my kittens going to someone who wants a cat now on a whim and I am not the only breeder who has this view so asking for a deposit if they are serious I do not see a problem with!
> I joined this forum for one reason and it was to speak to like minded people and hopefully have people to turn to for advice if I need it believe it or not. Now I am on breed specific sites and dont have this sort of response so maybe it is the fact that we all breed different things. Unless you breed sibbies please dont comment anymore on my prices as I dont think you can give an honest argument.
> Have I backlashed anyone saying god your cats are cheap. I am not sure if entirely agree with the statement that it encourages byb because of the price. It may do in some cases but it works both ways. I would say there are more byb of the most common breeds because they see a market for selling them and can get them cheap. I see it alot with persians who come in my work from breeders who dont breed good examples and they are one of the cheaper breeds so it works both ways.
> I think what one person said about nit picking is true, you are all ganging up on a new breeder/forum member because she has different views to yourselves so I must automatically be wrong. None of us are wrong we do what we believe is best and I wonted be forced to change what my beliefs are becasue someone thinks they can give me abuse on here, it wont work with me sorry.
> If anyone has anything productive to say that does not come across as cruel criticism then I would love to hear them otherwise can we all just end this discussion now it is becoming very tiresome and completely of subject. I did not realise when I posted original comment that it was an old one so I apologise for dragging up past posts
> Clare


Lovely cats though, tad over priced imo but I am more of a Ragdoll gal myself!  
I work in administration. I cannot read this post is is way too squashed up!


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> and yet you have, as well as answering yourself
> 
> I really hope you don't fall off that very high pedestal you have placed yourself on
> 
> I think you have misunderstood the point of advising the new owners to take the kitten to the vet. You comments imply that other breeders kittens are sold unhealthy and need to go to the vet for a check! Most breeders kittens are VET checked the day before they go to their new homes, I know mine are. The point of going with new kitten to the vet is not so they can pick up any illnesses, but to register the kitten with their vet ready, incase they do have to go at a later date - and even you can not guarantee that kitten you have sold will not need a vet at some point in the future. Having seen the kitten bright and happy and healthy, the vet has a reference point for any future visits.
> 
> Yet you still haven't answered. Exactly what topics pertinent to breeding ? I am genuinely interested. As I have said vets know very little about pregnancy, birth, neonates etc. Any experienced breeder would tell you that. So what is different in a vet nurse training. Is there anything in that training that a new breeder doing appropriate research prior to having their first litter wouldn't know ? You may well not have needed any help with an easish first birth, no new breeder would, lets be honest here, most cats can handle birth by themselves!!!! Its Mother Nature is it not. The species would have died out if birth was only successful if a vet nurse was present . I too managed my first and subsequent litters by myself :thumbup1: but I am just a mere Senior Systems Analyst.
> 
> I have to say though, reading your attitude towards other breeders, and what your practice obviously thinks of breeders in general, I am glad I don't have to use them. After reading some of the things on here, I would be looking for a new vet. The arrogant attitude from the representatives from the veterinary profession we have had on here leaves me cold and is everything that is wrong with the veterinary profession today in my humble opinion.
> 
> Good luck to you, I just hope you manage to keep your mind open long enough to actually learn something from experienced breeders who have had more that one kitten and who have personally experienced far more than you can ever read in a text book!!


I dont think anything bad of breeders in general just ones with an attitude:frown2: its funny how you say all vet professionals have an attitude but its never certain breeders, well ill be of this forum for good and taking my arrogant attitude with me... Clare Ferris rvn...lmao


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## Milly22

Gosh it's cold in here did she close the door on the way out. 

Sorry! 

I didn't read the full thread as I said Itwastooclosleytypedtogetherforme.

Lovely cats though. Lovely.


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## Biawhiska

:shocked:
see ya


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## Saikou

Oh well, never did get to find out what is so useful in a vet nurse training. I have been contemplating doing a course for ages, but can not fit it in with a full time job at present. It would have been nice to know if there is something that genuinely does help with the breeding side of things. Or maybe the posters reluctance to answer that question is information in itself.


----------



## Kalipha

Saikou said:


> Oh well, never did get to find out what is so useful in a vet nurse training. I have been contemplating doing a course for ages, but can not fit it in with a full time job at present. It would have been nice to know if there is something that genuinely does help with the breeding side of things. Or maybe the posters reluctance to answer that question is information in itself.





Clare Ferris said:


> Now once again I am not saying it makes me a better breeder than others and all good breeders go into it with the best intentions, but I may know things about disease and cat care, behaviour, birthing problems etc because of my training compared with other new breeders. I did not seek any advice when my cat gave birth because I did not need to I was happy with what I was doing.
> ...
> whilst I am new to actual breeding and the whole showing etc I know enough about rearing kittens correctly regardless of breed it does not make kitten rearing that different because you have a pedigree over a moggy or whatever.


Now, while I don't agree with the idea of plastering your occupation all over your website and adverts as if it somehow made your kittens better or healthier, the supposed benefits are fairly obvious and she stated them. Understanding of cat physiology and disease, birth mechanics, knowledge of the growth and development of kittens (yes that gets studied on a vetinary course), maybe experience hand rearing follwoing a c-section (nurses at my local practice have done that). While none of this is any substitute for years of breeding experience, they are an obvious advantage vs Mr Random Joe on the street.

Saikou. Don't go pretending you've been combing her posts with interest looking for some insight into why she feels being a vet nurse helps her in starting out breeding or that you're were in any way interested in what she had to say to further your knowledge of vet nurse training, cause no one's falling for that. You saw someone make a post that showed some 'I'm a vet nurse so obviously my opinion is worth more' arrogance and you systematically slated them for it. That's really all there is to it.


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## Clare Ferris

mellowma said:


> Lovely cats though, tad over priced imo but I am more of a Ragdoll gal myself!
> I work in administration. I cannot read this post is is way too squashed up!


You should check your spelling also then and maybe get some glasses


----------



## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> Saikou. Don't go pretending you've been combing her posts with interest looking for some insight into why she feels being a vet nurse helps her in starting out breeding or that you're were in any way interested in what she had to say to further your knowledge of vet nurse training, cause no one's falling for that. You saw someone make a post that showed some 'I'm a vet nurse so obviously my opinion is worth more' arrogance and you systematically slated them for it. That's really all there is to it.


Blimey - are you a mind reader   You have no idea why I wanted that information. Bit rich coming from the person who posted



> Yes, shouting about your proffession as if it should imply you're in any way a better breeder than anyone else is just stupid and laughable.


in a thread that starts



> Guys, ease off, it just ain't worth it


to which the poster responded



> oh I dont shout about my profession and do not feel it is laughable or stupid, I find that comment very offensive to be honest


Just a bit of poo-stirring on your behalf ???? Did the thread get a little tame for you ???


----------



## Clare Ferris

mellowma said:


> Gosh it's cold in here did she close the door on the way out.
> 
> Sorry!
> 
> I didn't read the full thread as I said Itwastooclosleytypedtogetherforme.
> 
> Lovely cats though. Lovely.


Its still cold because the door is still open I have never left would not give you the satisfaction.


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> You should check your spelling also then and maybe get some glasses



the poster could be dyslexic!!!


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## Biawhiska

If you had left it wouldn't have given me any satisfaction, why would we give a damn? Do what you like.


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## Kalipha

Saikou said:


> Blimey - are you a mind reader   You have no idea why I wanted that information. Bit rich coming from the person who posted
> 
> in a thread that starts
> 
> to which the poster responded
> 
> Just a bit of poo-stirring on your behalf ???? Did the thread get a little tame for you ???


Not a mind reader, just really obvious from your tone  And yeah, I've not made any bones about my opinion, which is that making out your profession (whatever it is) makes you a better breeder or your kittens better is, to use your quote, 'laughable and stupid', but that actively laying into the person personally, at massive length, ain't worth it. The fact the OP skim read and reacted as if I'd said the profession itself were laughable and stupid and then got offended is a) a shame and b) not my fault.


----------



## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> Not a mind reader, just really obvious from your tone


wow you got "tone" from the written word - amazing. Any tone in what I have written has misinterpretted by you.


----------



## Kalipha

Saikou said:


> wow you got "tone" from the written word - amazing. Any tone in what I have written has misinterpretted by you.


Not amazing. Are you actually implying it is impossible to convey aggression or genuine interest or curisoity or annoyance or happiness or politeness in the written word? 'Tone' does not have to mean 'tone of voice', simply 'the way you chose to put your point across. I mean, I find it ironic you make that statement in a sentance that very obviously displays sarcasm - isn't that something normally conveyed with 'tone'?

Take for example the only time you asked her how her training helped, you did so in a paragraph that then immediately went into detail about why her training wouldn't help, and then even when she answered you later in a post, made a point about how she never answered you and that infered she had no idea how it could help her as a fledgeling breeder.

If your intention was to come across actually interested in what she had to say and wanting to learn about her profession rather than simply trying to drive her into a corner, it didn't come off that way.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Oh well, never did get to find out what is so useful in a vet nurse training. I have been contemplating doing a course for ages, but can not fit it in with a full time job at present. It would have been nice to know if there is something that genuinely does help with the breeding side of things. Or maybe the posters reluctance to answer that question is information in itself.


Hi Im back
well ive changed my mind after getting a nice private message from another forum member encouraging me not to leave. Apparently im not the first person you have bullied and wont be the last, you should really look at the way you speak to people not just on here but generally as you seem to have upset alot of people by what I have heard, you and your little tag alongs mentioning no names.lol

Well sorry ive had that many thrown at me that I honestly forgot...ill answer your question now shall I. What do us vet nurses learn that is so useful to breeding? well we do a section on obstetric and paediatric nurisng which involves endocrinology, reproductive disease, normal matings and timing, assessment of fertility, oestrus cycle, cytology of vaginal smears, reproduction, control of reproduction, normal pregnancy and abnormalities, parturition and associated complications, caesareans assisting with and care of mother and neonates post op, artifical rearing of neonates, weaning, herditary and congenital abnormalities, genetics in animal breeding, cat and dog breeds, management of kennels and catteries, nutrition, socialisation and behaviour to name a few then there is all the other stuff we learn like first aid, anatomy and physiology, medicines and pharcology, clinical pathology, microbiology and immunology, laboratory diagnostics, mycology and parasitology, general nursing, surgical nursing, medical disorders and their nursing, theatre practice, managing a theatre and instrumentation, fluid therapy and shock, anaesthesia and analgesia, radiography, behaviour problems and management of them, handling and control of animals, observation and care of patients, laws of vet nursing, care and management of exiotic animals, nursing clinics and how to give advice to clients.
Hope this answers your questions 

You meantion that you where thinking of doing the course but are to busy with work, so how exactly where you planning on doing it, just interested to know as its not just some home study course you can do, you need to be working in a vets first and this is hard to get into it took me three years to get my foot in the door of a vets and I had to do alot of voluntary work at animal shelters first to gain experience plus an introduction to vet nursing course. I have worked hard to get my qualification and now being an rvn I have to do cpd regularly to keep my qualification.

Clare


----------



## Biawhiska

Were you calling me a tag along in all that?

Also, the pms remember there are 2 sides to every story


----------



## Clare Ferris

Clare Ferris said:


> Hi Im back
> well ive changed my mind after getting a nice private message from another forum member encouraging me not to leave. Apparently im not the first person you have bullied and wont be the last, you should really look at the way you speak to people not just on here but generally as you seem to have upset alot of people by what I have heard, you and your little tag alongs mentioning no names.lol
> 
> Well sorry ive had that many thrown at me that I honestly forgot...ill answer your question now shall I. What do us vet nurses learn that is so useful to breeding? well we do a section on obstetric and paediatric nurisng which involves endocrinology, reproductive disease, normal matings and timing, assessment of fertility, oestrus cycle, cytology of vaginal smears, reproduction, control of reproduction, normal pregnancy and abnormalities, parturition and associated complications, caesareans assisting with and care of mother and neonates post op, artifical rearing of neonates, weaning, herditary and congenital abnormalities, genetics in animal breeding, cat and dog breeds, management of kennels and catteries, nutrition, socialisation and behaviour to name a few then there is all the other stuff we learn like first aid, anatomy and physiology, medicines and pharcology, clinical pathology, microbiology and immunology, laboratory diagnostics, mycology and parasitology, general nursing, surgical nursing, medical disorders and their nursing, theatre practice, managing a theatre and instrumentation, fluid therapy and shock, anaesthesia and analgesia, radiography, behaviour problems and management of them, handling and control of animals, observation and care of patients, laws of vet nursing, care and management of exiotic animals, nursing clinics and how to give advice to clients.
> Hope this answers your questions
> 
> You meantion that you where thinking of doing the course but are to busy with work, so how exactly where you planning on doing it, just interested to know as its not just some home study course you can do, you need to be working in a vets first and this is hard to get into it took me three years to get my foot in the door of a vets and I had to do alot of voluntary work at animal shelters first to gain experience plus an introduction to vet nursing course. I have worked hard to get my qualification and now being an rvn I have to do cpd regularly to keep my qualification.
> 
> Clare


oh there was a spelling mistake earlier should say pharmacology!
Oh forgot to say qualified nurses can also give vaccinations and do schedule 3 procedures which means any type of surgery on animals that does not involve entry into the body cavity i.e draining abcesses, stitching up of wounds, aural haematoma repair, minor lump removals etc. under the guidance of a vet. I have operated on a couple of my cats aswell as monitoring of their anaesthetics when the vets have done the operation.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> If you had left it wouldn't have given me any satisfaction, why would we give a damn? Do what you like.


I do thanks and I dont suppose it would matter to you because sooner or later you would just find some other poor bugger to bully!


----------



## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> Were you calling me a tag along in all that?
> 
> Also, the pms remember there are 2 sides to every story


Read into what you will, if thats what you think


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> Hi Im back
> well ive changed my mind after getting a nice private message from another forum member encouraging me not to leave. Apparently im not the first person you have bullied and wont be the last, you should really look at the way you speak to people not just on here but generally as you seem to have upset alot of people by what I have heard, you and your little tag alongs mentioning no names.lol
> 
> Well sorry ive had that many thrown at me that I honestly forgot...ill answer your question now shall I. What do us vet nurses learn that is so useful to breeding? well we do a section on obstetric and paediatric nurisng which involves endocrinology, reproductive disease, normal matings and timing, assessment of fertility, oestrus cycle, cytology of vaginal smears, reproduction, control of reproduction, normal pregnancy and abnormalities, parturition and associated complications, caesareans assisting with and care of mother and neonates post op, artifical rearing of neonates, weaning, herditary and congenital abnormalities, genetics in animal breeding, cat and dog breeds, management of kennels and catteries, nutrition, socialisation and behaviour to name a few then there is all the other stuff we learn like first aid, anatomy and physiology, medicines and pharcology, clinical pathology, microbiology and immunology, laboratory diagnostics, mycology and parasitology, general nursing, surgical nursing, medical disorders and their nursing, theatre practice, managing a theatre and instrumentation, fluid therapy and shock, anaesthesia and analgesia, radiography, behaviour problems and management of them, handling and control of animals, observation and care of patients, laws of vet nursing, care and management of exiotic animals, nursing clinics and how to give advice to clients.
> Hope this answers your questions
> 
> You meantion that you where thinking of doing the course but are to busy with work, so how exactly where you planning on doing it, just interested to know as its not just some home study course you can do, you need to be working in a vets first and this is hard to get into it took me three years to get my foot in the door of a vets and I had to do alot of voluntary work at animal shelters first to gain experience plus an introduction to vet nursing course. I have worked hard to get my qualification and now being an rvn I have to do cpd regularly to keep my qualification.
> 
> Clare


Oh dear, I really wouldn't put much stall by what people stir behind the scenes. Some just love to make sure the debate continues for their own amusement.

I haven't bullied anyone on here, but please continue to make libellous statements about me and see where it gets you!! Go read all my posts, select my user name, go to statistics and read them all for yourself. Sadly, people view bullying as someone daring to have a different opinion to them and voicing it. Its funny how all the "vet nurse/receptionist/wannabes" that come on here, all claim to be bullied 

I speak as I find, I make no apology for that. If I disagree with some thing I will say so, and state my reasons. If people read tone into my posts thats not there thats their problem.

I am perfectly aware of what the course entails HENCE the fact that I said I couldn't do it whilst working full time  

My understanding is as a vet nurse you are duty bound not to bring your profession into disrepute. Going on the aggressive way you have answered everyone on here - and it all started with you becoming aggressive because Kozykats dared to disagree with you about dry food - together with the way you have represented both your practice and the views of the staff there I think you have come close to being very unprofessional!!


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Oh dear, I really wouldn't put much stall by what people stir behind the scenes. Some just love to make sure the debate continues for their own amusement.
> 
> Well maybe some do and I will make my own mind up about that one, but then these are people who claim to know you in the cat fancy???
> 
> I haven't bullied anyone on here, but please continue to make libellous statements about me and see where it gets you!! Go read all my posts, select my user name, go to statistics and read them all for yourself. Sadly, people view bullying as someone daring to have a different opinion to them and voicing it. Its funny how all the "vet nurse/receptionist/wannabes" that come on here, all claim to be bullied
> 
> Ok then ill take your word for it,:shocked: you have your opinions just like anyone else of course, and I am not making libellous claims just stating what I feel, I could have got very upset by some of the things you and others have said. It is also funny how you say these members are nolonger on this forum for whatever reason don't you think ? I
> 
> speak as I find, I make no apology for that. If I disagree with some thing I will say so, and state my reasons. If people read tone into my posts thats not there thats their problem.
> 
> with not much regard for peoples feelings! I have noticed even if someone is upset by your comments you wont apologise. Not for having a different opinion but for maybe giving the wrong impression.
> 
> I am perfectly aware of what the course entails HENCE the fact that I said I couldn't do it whilst working full time
> 
> So why have me sitting here explaining it too you? for a laugh I suppose or just to p**s me off! or did you want to see my reaction...maybe you thought I would not reply and crumble under pressure. Can I ask how you know what is involved as surely the course details are only made aware to those who enrol.:mad2:
> 
> My understanding is as a vet nurse you are duty bound not to bring your profession into disrepute. Going on the aggressive way you have answered everyone on here - and it all started with you becoming aggressive because Kozykats dared to disagree with you about dry food - together with the way you have represented both your practice and the views of the staff there I think you have come close to being very unprofessional!!


:

I think you have also misread the tone of my message. I did not behave aggressively at that point and never have, maybe with anger at some points but wouldn't anyone with the grilling I have had. I agree my emotions have taken over alittle and it has not been very professional of me at times, so I apologise. I have opinions like you and everyone else and will not be made to feel pushed off this forum by people who are making it perfectly clear im not welcome. It is really sad when certain people feel they cant even post things on here out of fear that people may start an assault on them.:frown2:


----------



## Saikou

No one is pushing anyone off a forum. I never have pushed anyone off this forum or any other forum!!! All those people who you "believe" I have pushed off this forum - name them!!! I am flattered you think I have so much power.

I make no apologies for my beliefs, I am passionate about siamese and orientals, feline nutrition, inbreeding and breeders who abuse the "hobby" breeder label as they are ruining it for all of us that are genuine hobby breeders, breeding for the genuine love of a breed we have owned for years. I also don't have an elitist view of cat breeding stating it should be pedigree registered breeders only.

Talking of elitist, veterinary nursing is not some special club that only the "chosen ones" are permitted to join. Finding out about what a course entails is available to anyone who wishes to find out. When I stated what a course entailed, I was replying to your sarcastic comment about it not being just a home study course and needing to have a placement in a veterinary practice.

You want to see what I have said, read the posts for yourself, don't just take my word for it or the word of your mystery 'friend' who has been feeding you libellous statements about me which btw you stated as fact and not as your belief. If this silent friend has an issue with me and anything I have said, grow a back bone and say it to my face and PM me directly, I will be more than happy to respond to your 'issues' !!!


----------



## Milly22

Clare Ferris said:


> You should check your spelling also then and maybe get some glasses


Nope don't need them.



Clare Ferris said:


> Its still cold because the door is still open I have never left would not give you the satisfaction.


Does not bother me either way to be honest, on the scale of things.......



Saikou said:


> the poster could be dyslexic!!!


Thanks for posting that Saikou, I am dyslexic but try my best along with my google spellchecker.

It was just a comment, paragraphs make for easier reading.

I cannot read the post.


----------



## Saikou

mellowma said:


> Thanks for posting that Saikou, I am dyslexic but try my best along with my google spellchecker.
> 
> It was just a comment, paragraphs make for easier reading.
> 
> I cannot read the post.


I would just ignore them. Like all trolls that run out of reasoned arguments they resort to personal insults


----------



## Biawhiska

Just a thought... seeing as you are a RVN why not go onto the health section of this site you may be able to help some folk out? :thumbup1:


----------



## Elmstar

So where are the free kitten packs? :wink5:


----------



## Biawhiska

I'm not sure  

Here's a question, when you buy a kitten do you expect a kitten pack? I don't. I ask the Breeder what the kitten has been eating and make sure I get my own supply. If it's not what I like to feed then i'd swap them over a few weeks. Same goes for litter.


----------



## gillieworm

Wow, do u ever feel u might all get a bit blind sighted. Taking a step back here and re-assessing you'll all come to the conclusion, same old **** just different topic 

Prospective kitten owners can read these boards, none of you make a great case for yourselves with all the bitching and back stabbing that seems to be a constant feature over here!!


Chill out!! it's almost Christmas


----------



## Elmstar

I like to give my new owners a small bag of World's Best cat litter but I think the food is probably best left up to the new owner. For financial reasons we normally end up feeding our kittens with Whiskas most of the time but I'd much prefer the new owners to feed raw or a better quality wet food if they can afford it.


----------



## Biawhiska

gillieworm said:


> Wow, do u ever feel u might all get a bit blind sighted. Taking a step back here and re-assessing you'll all come to the conclusion, same old **** just different topic
> 
> Prospective kitten owners can read these boards, none of you make a great case for yourselves with all the bitching and back stabbing that seems to be a constant feature over here!!
> 
> Chill out!! it's almost Christmas


It is not a constant feature over here anymore.... not been anything like this for a while, as shocking as that seems.


----------



## Saikou

Thankfully you can still have proper discussions - most of the time - without being penalised for anything other than "lovely picture".


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> No one is pushing anyone off a forum. I never have pushed anyone off this forum or any other forum!!! All those people who you "believe" I have pushed off this forum - name them!!! I am flattered you think I have so much power.
> 
> I make no apologies for my beliefs, I am passionate about siamese and orientals, feline nutrition, inbreeding and breeders who abuse the "hobby" breeder label as they are ruining it for all of us that are genuine hobby breeders, breeding for the genuine love of a breed we have owned for years. I also don't have an elitist view of cat breeding stating it should be pedigree registered breeders only.
> 
> Talking of elitist, veterinary nursing is not some special club that only the "chosen ones" are permitted to join. Finding out about what a course entails is available to anyone who wishes to find out. When I stated what a course entailed, I was replying to your sarcastic comment about it not being just a home study course and needing to have a placement in a veterinary practice.
> 
> You want to see what I have said, read the posts for yourself, don't just take my word for it or the word of your mystery 'friend' who has been feeding you libellous statements about me which btw you stated as fact and not as your belief. If this silent friend has an issue with me and anything I have said, grow a back bone and say it to my face and PM me directly, I will be more than happy to respond to your 'issues' !!!


Hi
well it sure feels that way, I am certainly not going to mention names the messages I have are private and there is obviously a reason why these people have chose to send them privately. If it was upto me I would not have any issues saying it to your face! but it is not, these people feel you can make their life very difficult as a breeder and would rather not have the hassle which I completely understand.
This really needs to stop now as it is becoming childish all this back and forth arguing nonsense. I can see we are both trying to have the last word and so from what I can see this is never going to end so Ill let you have the last word. It really does not make much difference to me
I have looked back at all these posts and I am ashamed of my comments at times, I should really know better than to let people prevoke me into responding the way I have.


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> This really needs to stop now as it is becoming childish all this back and forth arguing nonsense. I can see we are both trying to have the last word and so from what I can see this is never going to end so Ill let you have the last word. It really does not make much difference to me
> I have looked back at all these posts and I am ashamed of my comments at times, I should really know better than to let people prevoke me into responding the way I have.


I completely agree.... still waiting for those private messagers pedalling libellous comments about me to be woman enough to comment on things to me directly. As I said, I will be more than happy to respond to their issues.


----------



## Clare Ferris

mellowma said:


> Nope don't need them.
> 
> Does not bother me either way to be honest, on the scale of things.......
> 
> Thanks for posting that Saikou, I am dyslexic but try my best along with my google spellchecker.
> 
> It was just a comment, paragraphs make for easier reading.
> 
> I cannot read the post.


I am sorry I did not realise, I thought you were one of these people who had decided to make another sarcastic comment, I hope I have not offended you


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I would just ignore them. Like all trolls that run out of reasoned arguments they resort to personal insults


Oh that is soo funny, feel free to add more insults to injury, I have apologised for that comment, I do not know the person and did not realise


----------



## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> Just a thought... seeing as you are a RVN why not go onto the health section of this site you may be able to help some folk out? :thumbup1:


What a brilliant idea, although I would still imagine some of you to offer advice there also, so theres no escaping certain people I suppose


----------



## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> I'm not sure
> 
> Here's a question, when you buy a kitten do you expect a kitten pack? I don't. I ask the Breeder what the kitten has been eating and make sure I get my own supply. If it's not what I like to feed then i'd swap them over a few weeks. Same goes for litter.


Well I would expect atleast a sample of food to be honest, but its not about them expecting it, I like to give them out as a gesture of thanks for offering a loving home to one of my babies.


----------



## Clare Ferris

gillieworm said:


> Wow, do u ever feel u might all get a bit blind sighted. Taking a step back here and re-assessing you'll all come to the conclusion, same old **** just different topic
> 
> Prospective kitten owners can read these boards, none of you make a great case for yourselves with all the bitching and back stabbing that seems to be a constant feature over here!!
> 
> Chill out!! it's almost Christmas


I could not agree more and that is what I have tried to do...it is all getting alittle silly isn't it.
Well can I take this oppertunity to wish you *all* a merry christmas!


----------



## Siamese Kelly

Kinda is i thinkLMAO and LOL,but am glad some peeps are able to stand there ground consistently and with intelligence,makes a far more intelligent debate than simply hitching a ride on someone far better equipped to debate than not tailfeathers,and can do so without bullying or picking on peeps which i can say i haven't seen on this thread despite silly accusations,imho questions and points raised to you Clare were justified and im glad certain peeps are able to do this,because quite frankly i wasnt surprised at Clares sweeping generalisations just a tad miffed really for someone who's supposed to be a qualified professional in animal care,has to be said Clare ya did not represent either yourself or your colleagues well at all,and in your apparent profession as VN i would think that kinda position also requires objective and perceptive people skills which you show yourself to lack,granted if your not used to forums things can be misread but when read properly and they are explained as most have been,then you should be in a better position to respond like your sure of yourself and your statementsNot to be rude to you but your statements rather read like a childs or an adolescent who has got into a head tizzy and responded without fully understanding what your saying or what was put to you,and if am wrong on that and you do understand fully what was put to you and your responses,then you are far more inexperienced than you have been led to believe, If i am right then the latter again applysTo use strong words such as bullying and ganging up when its simply not true and can be seen as untrue by anyone and all who chooses to read thru thoroughly,is again like a young schoolgirl who on the spot cannot think of a concrete response so uses the B n G words by way of a get out clause,like i said by the statements you made and the way you made them shows your lack of knowledge,understanding of the world you are in and in experience in the world you are in,nowt wrong with that except when you post as you have you will always get peeps who are in a better position that will of course question you and challenge you-question and challenge,not bully nor grab a gang and there is a differenceI would imagine that with the statements you have made in this thread were to be put on any forum would always get similar responses and possibly not all would be so polite-surely you can see thatLOL PS Clare do tell a certain lady Swe all said Hi and we miss her,cheers


----------



## Saikou

Biawhiska said:


> I'm not sure
> 
> Here's a question, when you buy a kitten do you expect a kitten pack? I don't. I ask the Breeder what the kitten has been eating and make sure I get my own supply. If it's not what I like to feed then i'd swap them over a few weeks. Same goes for litter.


I think the concept of a "kitten pack" as such, is a fairly modern one and a sales gimmick. On some sites you see the kitten - which should be the most important - is almost incidental to the fabulous kitten pack.

In the past just a list of foods and litter was deemed sufficient.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Siamese Kelly said:


> Kinda is i thinkLMAO and LOL,but am glad some peeps are able to stand there ground consistently and with intelligence,makes a far more intelligent debate than simply hitching a ride on someone far better equipped to debate than not tailfeathers,and can do so without bullying or picking on peeps which i can say i haven't seen on this thread despite silly accusations,imho questions and points raised to you Clare were justified and im glad certain peeps are able to do this,because quite frankly i wasnt surprised at Clares sweeping generalisations just a tad miffed really for someone who's supposed to be a qualified professional in animal care,has to be said Clare ya did not represent either yourself or your colleagues well at all,and in your apparent profession as VN i would think that kinda position also requires objective and perceptive people skills which you show yourself to lack,granted if your not used to forums things can be misread but when read properly and they are explained as most have been,then you should be in a better position to respond like your sure of yourself and your statementsNot to be rude to you but your statements rather read like a childs or an adolescent who has got into a head tizzy and responded without fully understanding what your saying or what was put to you,and if am wrong on that and you do understand fully what was put to you and your responses,then you are far more inexperienced than you have been led to believe, If i am right then the latter again applysTo use strong words such as bullying and ganging up when its simply not true and can be seen as untrue by anyone and all who chooses to read thru thoroughly,is again like a young schoolgirl who on the spot cannot think of a concrete response so uses the B n G words by way of a get out clause,like i said by the statements you made and the way you made them shows your lack of knowledge,understanding of the world you are in and in experience in the world you are in,nowt wrong with that except when you post as you have you will always get peeps who are in a better position that will of course question you and challenge you-question and challenge,not bully nor grab a gang and there is a differenceI would imagine that with the statements you have made in this thread were to be put on any forum would always get similar responses and possibly not all would be so polite-surely you can see thatLOL PS Clare do tell a certain lady Swe all said Hi and we miss her,cheers


Im not quite sure what you are impling, that I am stupid and inexperienced? and I got what was coming to me, well maybe that is your opinion, I may have over reacted at times but the comments made by certain others were also uncalled for. if people have a problem with that then thats upto them. So I have no people skills either?lol And by using lol and lmao that makes me immmature, what because you senior citizens dont use these words? I may not be as experienced of the world as others but that is because I am probably alot younger.  Yes you are right I did comment without fully thinking through my comments, but as I have said certain people have upset others in the past by their words wheter that has come across as bullying or not. We all interpret things different ...so what you are saying is any posts challanging others that are percieved as bullying is showing imaturity, well I guess im not the only immature person on here then?

saimese breeders as well hey, well nothing like sticking together, oh and I remember who you are know!:frown2:


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> oh and I remember who you are know!:frown2:


  But you only joined Nov 2009 ? How is that possible ?

(Tone Indicator = : )


----------



## Clare Ferris

Siamese Kelly said:


> Kinda is i thinkLMAO and LOL,but am glad some peeps are able to stand there ground consistently and with intelligence,makes a far more intelligent debate than simply hitching a ride on someone far better equipped to debate than not tailfeathers,and can do so without bullying or picking on peeps which i can say i haven't seen on this thread despite silly accusations,imho questions and points raised to you Clare were justified and im glad certain peeps are able to do this,because quite frankly i wasnt surprised at Clares sweeping generalisations just a tad miffed really for someone who's supposed to be a qualified professional in animal care,has to be said Clare ya did not represent either yourself or your colleagues well at all,and in your apparent profession as VN i would think that kinda position also requires objective and perceptive people skills which you show yourself to lack,granted if your not used to forums things can be misread but when read properly and they are explained as most have been,then you should be in a better position to respond like your sure of yourself and your statementsNot to be rude to you but your statements rather read like a childs or an adolescent who has got into a head tizzy and responded without fully understanding what your saying or what was put to you,and if am wrong on that and you do understand fully what was put to you and your responses,then you are far more inexperienced than you have been led to believe, If i am right then the latter again applysTo use strong words such as bullying and ganging up when its simply not true and can be seen as untrue by anyone and all who chooses to read thru thoroughly,is again like a young schoolgirl who on the spot cannot think of a concrete response so uses the B n G words by way of a get out clause,like i said by the statements you made and the way you made them shows your lack of knowledge,understanding of the world you are in and in experience in the world you are in,nowt wrong with that except when you post as you have you will always get peeps who are in a better position that will of course question you and challenge you-question and challenge,not bully nor grab a gang and there is a differenceI would imagine that with the statements you have made in this thread were to be put on any forum would always get similar responses and possibly not all would be so polite-surely you can see thatLOL PS Clare do tell a certain lady Swe all said Hi and we miss her,cheers


iwhat certain lady are you referring to? I am stupid remember so unless you really spell it out for me then I honestly have not got a clue.lol


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> But you only joined Nov 2009 ? How is that possible ?


Sarcastic coment again amI right ?


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> This really needs to stop now as it is becoming childish all this back and forth arguing nonsense.


and yet you still continue :mad2:


----------



## Elmstar

Saikou said:


> and yet you still continue :mad2:


As do you?

Can we not just end this here?

I'm still waiting for my free kitten pack.


----------



## Saikou

Elmstar said:


> As do you?
> 
> Can we not just end this here?
> 
> I'm still waiting for my free kitten pack.


Right back at you!!! Its in the post 

So what importance do you put on kitten packs, would it sway your decision between 2 kittens because the pack that one came with was better than the other ?


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> and yet you still continue :mad2:


As far as im concerned its finished, so carrying on ...
Oh what will you do with your days now!


----------



## Saikou

You could get back on topic and answer the question  



Saikou said:


> So what importance do you put on kitten packs, would it sway your decision between 2 kittens because the pack that one came with was better than the other ?


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> You could get back on topic and answer the question


well ofcourse not unless I liked both cats the same.lol only joking. The cat is the most important and also the breeder and the vibes I get from them. If I feel comfortable with them then I would prefer to go with that person as after all that person should be available to offer lifelong advice should you need it. If you cannot trust them or have a bad feeling then you should go with your instincts. But it is always nice to get free stuff, I know I like it! I do get carried away with what I put in though, but I guess in time I will come to realise that it is just not fiancially viable to offer lots of non essential items in a pack.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I think the concept of a "kitten pack" as such, is a fairly modern one and a sales gimmick. On some sites you see the kitten - which should be the most important - is almost incidental to the fabulous kitten pack.
> 
> In the past just a list of foods and litter was deemed sufficient.


What if you feed a food that is not easy to obtain for the new owner, should you not atleast supply 2 weeks worth so they can keep the diet the same for the first week and then gradually wean them onto something more obtainable for them?
Especially as most big pet food companies supply FREE kitten packs if you buy their food


----------



## Saikou

Which would beg the question, if they are merely nice to haves, and yes everyone loves a freebie, then why some breeders sites put so much emphasis on the extensivity of the pack provided, some seemingly using that to justify the price of the kitten.

I don't think any of the kittens I have purchased came with a huge pack of goodies, and if they had, I wouldn't have taken much notice as all my attention was focused on my new baby.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Which would beg the question, if they are merely nice to haves, and yes everyone loves a freebie, then why some breeders sites put so much emphasis on the extensivity of the pack provided, some seemingly using that to justify the price of the kitten.
> 
> I don't think any of the kittens I have purchased came with a huge pack of goodies, and if they had, I wouldn't have taken much notice as all my attention was focused on my new baby.


I have never come across a site that puts alot of emphasis on the pack. I would imagine you would get charged that price pack or not  So might aswell just take it anyway it's FREE!! otherwise it would be listed as an optional extra that if you did not want would reduce the price of the cat.


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> What if you feed a food that is not easy to obtain for the new owner, should you not atleast supply 2 weeks worth so they can keep the diet the same for the first week and then gradually wean them onto something more obtainable for them?
> Especially as most big pet food companies supply FREE kitten packs if you buy their food


Seeing as most of the kittens people breed are destined to go to new homes, it would seem irresponsible to feed them a diet that could not be easily maintained by any new owner. A kitten should be used to a wide variety of foods before they leave, making them less susceptible to tummy issues should anything new be introduced.

If taking on the responsibility for a new baby, and it is a huge responsibility that hopefully lasts 15 + yrs, then you could argue that responsibility starts with finding out what the kitten has been used to and ensuring they source an appropriate supply before his/her arrival.

I know alot of breeders who in the past, when it was easier to do so, obtained a number of different free kitten packs from various sources.....not necessarily the same foods as they had been feeding.

btw before anyone launches an attack, I am playing devils advocate here


----------



## messyhearts

I found packs important in a "ooh I can't wait to see what's in this goodie bag!" kind of way. Nothing more.


----------



## Biawhiska

our vet gives out kitten packs when you reg a new kitten. that was a "ohh wonder what's in it?" moment lol... turned out, not much  a cool mouse toy though that got alot of use


----------



## Siamese Kelly

Clare Ferris said:


> Im not quite sure what you are impling, that I am stupid and inexperienced? and I got what was coming to me, well maybe that is your opinion, I may have over reacted at times but the comments made by certain others were also uncalled for. if people have a problem with that then thats upto them. So I have no people skills either?lol And by using lol and lmao that makes me immature, what because you senior citizens dont use these words? I may not be as experienced of the world as others but that is because I am probably alot younger.  Yes you are right I did comment without fully thinking through my comments, but as I have said certain people have upset others in the past by their words wheter that has come across as bullying or not. We all interpret things different ...so what you are saying is any posts challanging others that are percieved as bullying is showing imaturity, well I guess im not the only immature person on here then?
> 
> saimese breeders as well hey, well nothing like sticking together, oh and I remember who you are know!:frown2:


Well for remembering me apparently i do kinda have one of them smilie faces-LOL,can i beg your pardon also on the fact that i am a senior i am myself but a mere anklebiter dearyLOL,if your not quite sure on anything i have read Clare sweet,plz do take the time to read and digest what i have said i think its clear enough,i imply nothing,i stated my take on what you have posted and the way you answered-simples enough,so ner ner na ner na ner and ner some moreThink harderer about lady S,other peoples grievances with anyone are just those and peeps if big enough to give it can take it or leaveLMAO and doubles up on LOLS,you have the advantage over me Clare i had no idea we'd met up until now,you must have made quite an impression again,meezer breeders have to stick together to feel like we have worth since not everyone has the clear and obvious talents you possess,minions like myself can only pretend and dream,i can stand alone in my opinions as i know others can,i can even on rare occasions wipe my own nose and everything-i know i was a bit WOW tooLOL and really LMAO,for the latter of your response to mwah,and to be clear YES deary when you make sweeping statements such as what you have made then its rather naive to think that any responses from any breeders or not who wish to respond will be all fwuffy,they were strong and untrue statements to make,so in posting them expect strong BUT true statements response to you-apologies for not being as clear as i thought i had been,i hope by re-reading thru what i said and taking a bit of time to again digest-you will do just that and breath,okay i hope this response isnt as baffling as my lastLOL

Oh for kitten packs,we too give kitten packs that we make up all on our own coz we do have some senior moments as you do and i guess coz thats how we've always done things and they consist of the usual,nothing more,nothing lessLOL X 2


----------



## Milly22

Clare Ferris said:


> saimese breeders as well hey, well nothing like sticking together, oh and I remember who you are know!:frown2:


It's now! Not know.  

Sorry couldn't resist.

I shall now sit on my hands and refrain from further postings.......


----------



## Soupie

Blimey have I wandered into the school playground by mistake? 

This is why so many people get put off the cat fancy ...

Kitten packs - I think in the current climate the free ones from food companies will become a thing of the past - already companies have tightened up the conditions they place on breeders for claiming these and pared back what they put in them. I've always got them with my kittens but never expected one - most importantly to me the breeders told me what the kitten was being fed and their likes and dislikes and offered ongoing support and became friends. 

My first litter is planned for spring but as I only have one girl I don't qualify for any breeders clubs so I am going to make up my own just with some of their food they are used to, some litter, a couple of toys and a factsheet on their diet and stuff about the breed etc. Hopefully any people who buy kittens from me will be happy with that!


----------



## Milly22

Soupie said:


> Blimey have I wandered into the school playground by mistake?
> 
> This is why so many people get put off the cat fancy ...


Sorry that's probably me I am very childish for my age!

On a more serious note I had to go to the beginning of the thread to see what it was about and Pinky Paws does fantastic kitten packs, then you can personlise them yourself with diet/care sheet.  When we had a litter I ordered little blankets to go with the kittens, pink for girls, blue for boys, enough food to get them started, toys and somepictures ofthem growing from week 1-12 erm... yes that's about it!

See I can be nice. 

PS: I forgot to spell check this so ther may be errors, the words *personalise and fantastic* both look wrong but they could be right!?!


----------



## Siamese Kelly

Im not,am way too senior for thatLOLAnd i hope you have your helmet Soupie,playgrounds are now Pc and have become revenge battlegrounds LOL 2 timesAlso LOL about catfancy-if only SoupieFor your KP's thats all most peeps do anyways,its a gesture and usually taken that way with appreciation


----------



## Saikou

Soupie said:


> This is why so many people get put off the cat fancy ...


Now there is a new and interesting debate all in itself. Although in all seriousness, I would hazzard a guess that it has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of this thread  I would say finance, red tape, disillution with governing bodies, show politics to name just a few - but maybe you should start a new thread so as to not take this one off topic again :thumbup1:


----------



## Clare Ferris

Siamese Kelly said:


> Well for remembering me apparently i do kinda have one of them smilie faces-LOL,can i beg your pardon also on the fact that i am a senior i am myself but a mere anklebiter dearyLOL,if your not quite sure on anything i have read Clare sweet,plz do take the time to read and digest what i have said i think its clear enough,i imply nothing,i stated my take on what you have posted and the way you answered-simples enough,so ner ner na ner na ner and ner some moreThink harderer about lady S,other peoples grievances with anyone are just those and peeps if big enough to give it can take it or leaveLMAO and doubles up on LOLS,you have the advantage over me Clare i had no idea we'd met up until now,you must have made quite an impression again,meezer breeders have to stick together to feel like we have worth since not everyone has the clear and obvious talents you possess,minions like myself can only pretend and dream,i can stand alone in my opinions as i know others can,i can even on rare occasions wipe my own nose and everything-i know i was a bit WOW tooLOL and really LMAO,for the latter of your response to mwah,and to be clear YES deary when you make sweeping statements such as what you have made then its rather naive to think that any responses from any breeders or not who wish to respond will be all fwuffy,they were strong and untrue statements to make,so in posting them expect strong BUT true statements response to you-apologies for not being as clear as i thought i had been,i hope by re-reading thru what i said and taking a bit of time to again digest-you will do just that and breath,okay i hope this response isnt as baffling as my lastLOL
> 
> Oh for kitten packs,we too give kitten packs that we make up all on our own coz we do have some senior moments as you do and i guess coz thats how we've always done things and they consist of the usual,nothing more,nothing lessLOL X 2


Well im not sure I remembered you for your smiley face and I would not say we met up either, I merely stubbled across you at a cat show...take a look at my website maybe then you will remember.?
As for reading again well I cannot really be bothered to be honest, I do not like what you have said and will leave it as that. As for person S I know exactly who im referring to and I would guess her grievances with certain people are similar to mine. I have heard enough from certain people to have a fair idea of what type of person they are. Bullying comes in many forms theres the physical and the mental both of which can come at differents degress. I may have upset people by stating my profession as another poster has said certain people saw this as an oppertunity to have a go. :frown2:
So I have talents why thankyou.lol. No seriously if people are put of by my profession then I cannot be held responsible for that, that is their problem not mine. I do not see why this has to be brought up time and time again. It has been taken far to personnally by some people and its sad really.
I have made sweeping comments have I and whta exactly where these then that provoked sucha strong response from you?


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Seeing as most of the kittens people breed are destined to go to new homes, it would seem irresponsible to feed them a diet that could not be easily maintained by any new owner. A kitten should be used to a wide variety of foods before they leave, making them less susceptible to tummy issues should anything new be introduced.
> 
> If taking on the responsibility for a new baby, and it is a huge responsibility that hopefully lasts 15 + yrs, then you could argue that responsibility starts with finding out what the kitten has been used to and ensuring they source an appropriate supply before his/her arrival.
> 
> I know alot of breeders who in the past, when it was easier to do so, obtained a number of different free kitten packs from various sources.....not necessarily the same foods as they had been feeding.
> 
> btw before anyone launches an attack, I am playing devils advocate here


 So you dont agree with keeping the food the same for the first week or so whilst they settle but rarther offer as many foods as possible so they dont get tummy upsets?

I was under the impression that most pedigree cats have notoriously sensitive stomachs so offering lots of different foods especially low quality supermarket ones I would imagine would cause problems. I did find my kitten did better on dry as oppose to wet as this did make him alittle sloppy at times. I would not dare use supermarket foods to be honest...last time i used whiskas years ago my persian had horrendous diarrhoea and had to be hospitalised on a drip. its just not worth the risk of swapping and changing food imo, but thats me and what I find works best with my cats. I advise kitten owners to keep the food the same for the first week whilst the kitten settles as a change of diet at this very stressful time can cause problems. After then I wouls say either carry on using the food or change slowly over to something else of high quality.


----------



## Clare Ferris

mellowma said:


> It's now! Not know.
> 
> Sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> I shall now sit on my hands and refrain from further postings.......


What can I say I often hit an extra key when I type fast ... Is that ok with you?


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> So you dont agree with keeping the food the same for the first week or so whilst they settle but rarther offer as many foods as possible so they dont get tummy upsets?
> 
> I was under the impression that most pedigree cats have notoriously sensitive stomachs so offering lots of different foods especially low quality supermarket ones I would imagine would cause problems. I did find my kitten did better on dry as oppose to wet as this did make him alittle sloppy at times. I would not dare use supermarket foods to be honest...last time i used whiskas years ago my persian had horrendous diarrhoea and had to be hospitalised on a drip. its just not worth the risk of swapping and changing food imo, but thats me and what I find works best with my cats. I advise kitten owners to keep the food the same for the first week whilst the kitten settles as a change of diet at this very stressful time can cause problems. After then I wouls say either carry on using the food or change slowly over to something else of high quality.


  I don't know where you read in my post that I advocate not keeping the kitten on the same food for a while, and with a sensitive stomach prone baby a week is hardly long enough wouldn't you say. Nor where I mentioned supermarket or cheap foods   You are obviously trying to spark off bad feeling again :nono:

Going by the prefix of your cats, I would hazzard a guess your kittens had stomach problems as they had been used to a completely raw diet, isn't their breeder a huge advocate of that. Diarrhoea often clears up with dry as it puts the cat into mild clinical dehydration, hence less water in the poos and they firm up.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Soupie said:


> Blimey have I wandered into the school playground by mistake?
> 
> This is why so many people get put off the cat fancy ...
> 
> Kitten packs - I think in the current climate the free ones from food companies will become a thing of the past - already companies have tightened up the conditions they place on breeders for claiming these and pared back what they put in them. I've always got them with my kittens but never expected one - most importantly to me the breeders told me what the kitten was being fed and their likes and dislikes and offered ongoing support and became friends.
> 
> My first litter is planned for spring but as I only have one girl I don't qualify for any breeders clubs so I am going to make up my own just with some of their food they are used to, some litter, a couple of toys and a factsheet on their diet and stuff about the breed etc. Hopefully any people who buy kittens from me will be happy with that!


I think you have! well I agree there are many people who do get put off by the catty comments made and the banding together of certain people who like to *try* and make new breeders lives hell. Oh and then theres all the back stabbing that goes on. It is certainly not a place for the weak people apparently that are easily upset. Standing up for yourself aswell brings its own problems.:mad2::mad2:
Well back to the thread in question I got a diet sheet and samples of food plus two really cute bowls, vacc and m/c details and the contract ofcourse.
I think the basics is all you really need anything extra is really upto the breeder I suppose I know of one breeder whos mother knits ablanket for the kitten to go with, thats a nice gesture I think


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I don't know where you read in my post that I advocate not keeping the kitten on the same food for a while, and with a sensitive stomach prone baby a week is hardly long enough wouldn't you say. Nor where I mentioned supermarket or cheap foods   You are obviously trying to spark off bad feeling again :nono:
> 
> Going by the prefix of your cats, I would hazzard a guess your kittens had stomach problems as they had been used to a completely raw diet, isn't their breeder a huge advocate of that. Diarrhoea often clears up with dry as it puts the cat into mild clinical dehydration, hence less water in the poos and they firm up.


Yes she is how clever are you, im not starting anything here just trying to understand your reasons behind offering different foods.  My kitten I bred has never had raw food so this does not come into it. When you say they go into mild clinical dehydration is this enough to show in the cat? Just wondering because all my girls have a full blood work up before mating and there bloods results are spot on. Normally if an animal is slightly dehydrated (not enough to show a skint tent or anything) their urea levels are slightly raised. This is a waste product excreted by the body. My cats levels where fine.
I used raw initially with the cats I got from her because I was led to believe they did not tolerate carbs well. I did not like it but felt I had no choice as everything else I tried they did not tolerate. I then chose to feed applaws food for the low carbs which they where fine on initially but they lost alittle weight on this and then developed diarrhoea. After seeking vet attention I slowly but surely managed to get them used to normal cat food again and now they are great. So I guess the whole carb thing was rubbish they just needed time to adjusted to a completely different food they had not been used to.
As for kittens yes I would say atleast a week and then slowly introduce a new food over another 7 days atleast but it depends on how much food you give them and wheter they are going to go out and by more of the same or just get something different. Slow change is normally fine aslong as you use a high quality, easy to digest food.


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> When you say they go into mild clinical dehydration is this enough to show in the cat?



I believe it has a sufficient affect to change the bowel movements. Your girls may well have had urea levels within normal *range*, but as we are talking MILD dehydration, taking into account the fact that your girls are only just over a yr old, as you have no idea what their levels were before this blood test you can not say whether they were raised or not, just that they were within normal!!! Where a range is involved there really is no spot on 



Clare Ferris said:


> After seeking vet attention I slowly but surely managed to get them used to normal cat food again


For an obligate carnivore, raw meat is *normal *food. Its the over processed, high carb commercial food that is not normal for them.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I believe it has a sufficient affect to change the bowel movements. Your girls may well have had urea levels within normal *range*, but as we are talking MILD dehydration, taking into account the fact that your girls are only just over a yr old, as you have no idea what their levels were before this blood test you can not say whether they were raised or not, just that they were within normal!!! Where a range is involved there really is no spot on
> Spot on meaning within range. The levels can be outside the norm slightly just by witholding water overnight. It must not be a major dehydrating issue if they where within the normal range imo.
> 
> For an obligate carnivore, raw meat is *normal *food. Its the over processed, high carb commercial food that is not normal for them.


Yes they are obligate carnivores in the sense they require certain nutrients that are only present in animal tissue but these have been successfully put into cat food to compensate. Aslong as these essential amino acids are present then the cat should not suffer any major health problems associated with a diet lower in protein. Carbohydrates can be digested by cats and whilst in the wild they would eat hardly any, they are not wild animals anymore and they can be a good energy source. I did find my cats weight increased slightly when put back on this food. Not to the point where they are overweight or anything just by 0.5kg or so. I dont agree with supermarket dry food that can contain aslittle as 4% meat but I would not disregard all dry food imo. I see your point and if there was a raw food that was balanced with the right levels of everything and had none of the associated health risks found with feeding and preparing this type of food then maybe I would be convinced to use it. Would you say it was safe for a pregant woman to prepare this type of food? Can I ask what your take on feeding senior cats on high protein is? The more protein in a diet the more work for the kidneys to have to do. Now I am not saying it causes kidney problems but it certainly can make mild kidney disease that is sub clinical progress a hell of a lot faster into kidney failure or so I am led to believe by vets!


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I believe it has a sufficient affect to change the bowel movements. Your girls may well have had urea levels within normal *range*, but as we are talking MILD dehydration, taking into account the fact that your girls are only just over a yr old, as you have no idea what their levels were before this blood test you can not say whether they were raised or not, just that they were within normal!!! Where a range is involved there really is no spot on




When I say spot on I mean within normal limits. The levels can be slightly outside this if slight dehydration is present without them showing clinical signs. Say if water is with held for a while. 
If commercial food is so bad why arent all the cats dieing before the age of 10yrs. Infact I have read that the lifespan of the cat has increased alot in recent yrs, or maybe I am wrong in thinking this.


----------



## Saikou

Common misconception that cats have evolved their physiology over the years as part of being "domesticated". That has happened in dogs but not in cats. In that respect they are still wild.

In my experience, vets ideas about nutrition are exactly what they have been told by commercial food manufacturers. They repeat the blurb given to them parrot fashion.

Cats need raw meat, muscle meat, organs and bones. Yes it is hard if trying to replicate a natural diet for them to get the balance correct but no impossible as many have proved. They need high quality protein and you do not find that in any processed foods and certainly not in dry. I think you did some independant investigation you would be surprised at how little testing and investigation commercial food manufacturers actually do before launching a food on to the market place. Go Cat for instance, marketed as a complete food! Yes it doesn't kill the cat right away, but no doubt causes long term problems, as does any completely dry diet.

Nowadays there is a higher instance of kidney disease, liver disaese, heart problems, diabetes, food intolerances/allergies, obesity - the veterinary profession must know that, they end up treating the animals, yet why haven't sufficient numbers of them questioned why and looked for a reason? Could it be that there is a lucrative relationship for both parties that has been forged between commercial food manufacturers and the veterinary profession ? No perish the thought 

Cats natural diet is prey, and that does not come in kitten, neuter, adult and senior versions. Mother Nature designed them to live a long happy life on that prey - so why would having a high protein diet of the appropriate quality cause them to have kidney disease. In fact new thinking on kidney disease is that in the early stages of CRF its not the level of protein that is of most importance, its the quality of that protein - phosphorous levels are more key. Its only in the final stages that low protein diets become relevant.

Poor quality protein, high carb dry-ets have only been around for a few decades. There are thousands of years before that where cats survived, healthy with no doubt far better teeth. Yes their lives may not have been as long for other reasons ie diseases that once fatal are now curable or can be vaccinated against, but I am willing to bet that aside they were far healthier in every other way.

But don't just take my word for it, there is plenty of literature out there. As I have already suggested Your Cat is an eye opening read.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Common misconception that cats have evolved their physiology over the years as part of being "domesticated". That has happened in dogs but not in cats. In that respect they are still wild.
> 
> In my experience, vets ideas about nutrition are exactly what they have been told by commercial food manufacturers. They repeat the blurb given to them parrot fashion.
> 
> Cats need raw meat, muscle meat, organs and bones. Yes it is hard if trying to replicate a natural diet for them to get the balance correct but no impossible as many have proved. They need high quality protein and you do not find that in any processed foods and certainly not in dry. I think you did some independant investigation you would be surprised at how little testing and investigation commercial food manufacturers actually do before launching a food on to the market place. Go Cat for instance, marketed as a complete food! Yes it doesn't kill the cat right away, but no doubt causes long term problems, as does any completely dry diet.
> 
> Nowadays there is a higher instance of kidney disease, liver disaese, heart problems, diabetes, food intolerances/allergies, obesity - the veterinary profession must know that, they end up treating the animals, yet why haven't sufficient numbers of them questioned why and looked for a reason? Could it be that there is a lucrative relationship for both parties that has been forged between commercial food manufacturers and the veterinary profession ? No perish the thought
> 
> Cats natural diet is prey, and that does not come in kitten, neuter, adult and senior versions. Mother Nature designed them to live a long happy life on that prey - so why would having a high protein diet of the appropriate quality cause them to have kidney disease. In fact new thinking on kidney disease is that in the early stages of CRF its not the level of protein that is of most importance, its the quality of that protein - phosphorous levels are more key. Its only in the final stages that low protein diets become relevant.
> 
> Poor quality protein, high carb dry-ets have only been around for a few decades. There are thousands of years before that where cats survived, healthy with no doubt far better teeth. Yes their lives may not have been as long for other reasons ie diseases that once fatal are now curable or can be vaccinated against, but I am willing to bet that aside they were far healthier in every other way.
> 
> But don't just take my word for it, there is plenty of literature out there. As I have already suggested Your Cat is an eye opening read.


Well I have read some things on the benefits of raw food and whilst some of it makes sense I am still not sure about everything. It can be extremely difficult for a pet owner who does not have any knowledge on nutrition to get it right so whilst breeders like yourself who have done the research may understand it better I do wonder if just saying to people go and feed raw meat is the right thing to do. For a growing animal it does not contain anywhere near the right amount of calcuim and yes you add bone but how much?
I agree there is alot more to kidney disease than just protein levels ie as you have mentioned phosphorus for example. There are however diets on the market for kidney problems that have been shown to prolong the life of a cat with chronic renal insufficiency. By using moderate levels of high quality protein and controlled levels of known minerals that contribute to the problem, but how do you control these things if you feed raw?
I am not sure about the whole reationship between vets and food companies but then who does. Yes they sponsors vet schools I think and do hold talks on nutrition but if a cat is doing well on a dry food then is it really that bad? Like I say not all dry foods are the same and there is a big difference I would never use go cat or any other dry supermarket food, not because it is dry but because of the ingredients etc.

For me it is very difficult to advocate raw food in my job. No one I work with uses it and my boss does not recommend it either so I dont think he would be very happy if I started advising clients to use it.lol plus in something went wrong with an animal whos owner I advised to use it my life would not be worth living. Like I say I do not think all commercial food is bad and I have seen some things on the internet that just seem utter rubbish...using dead pets in pet food??? I mean that just seems silly to me. The pfma have legal requirements for what can and cant be put in foods and yes whilst they do not state quality of ingredients they do have legal requirements for amounts of nutrients. I try to instead educate people not to use low quality food.
I think everyone will have their own views on this subject and it can be difficult to agree on everything, well impossible as it will never happen.
I suppose as pets age then more problems come to light. No doubt there are some very unhealthy animals out there that are fed on rubbish but I dont think all pet food is rubbish. I have read studies done on dead wild animals looking at the teeth for example and these have shown dental disease, broken teeth etc so it does happen from what I have read in wild animals.
well maybe I should read this book for myself ans see what its all about. 
Can it be sourced on the internet, if so what is the title and author again?
Nice to have a proper discussion without arguments.lol well im off to bed it really is to late for me especially as I have work in the morning.


----------



## Elmstar

Saikou said:


> So what importance do you put on kitten packs, would it sway your decision between 2 kittens because the pack that one came with was better than the other ?


I don't consider them important at all, I guess they could help some new owners in the short term but some people who've had our cats didn't get them because we forgot and they didn't ask.


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## Kalipha

Just one point, mother nature did not design cats to live a long and happy life - she 'designed' them to live to breeding age, produce the next generation, and die. It is perfectly feasible that a cat's wild diet can cause damage to a elderly cat whose kidneys are not as strong as they were, because their wild diet is not designed for elderly cats. In the wild, there are no elderly cats.

Nature's design is natural selection. There is no active design process. The only thing that drives it is how capable you are of producing the next generation. Two cats, one of whom remains strong and healthy deep past reproductive age and the other who develops kidney failure and dies a week later are both equally favoured by nature. So long as they're both equally strong in their prime, nature doesn't give a damn how you die in your old age.

I actually approve of raw, aside from the research it simply 'feels' right. However I'm ready and prepared to have to change this when my kitties get old. Keeping an old cat is an inherantly unnatural thing. We keep them and care for them because we love them, but 'mother nature's' plan for them is when they stop being able to hunt for themselves they should die. Her methods stop working on the old and sick, she distains the old and sick, which is why we fall back on human intervention, something which long ago decided people and animals shouldn't die when nature says they should


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## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> Just one point, mother nature did not design cats to live a long and happy life - she 'designed' them to live to breeding age, produce the next generation, and die. It is perfectly feasible that a cat's wild diet can cause damage to a elderly cat whose kidneys are not as strong as they were, because their wild diet is not designed for elderly cats. In the wild, there are no elderly cats.


Really!!! Obviously never watched any wildlife programs then.  Thats your opinion. I have a different one.  Apparently Serengeti Lions can live up to age 18 yrs - seems pretty old to me - certainly a lot older than modern day domestic cats seem to reach - particularly pedigrees. I would hazzard a guess that at 18 they left their cub bearing years well behind.

So Mother Nature has a different design for the rest of the animal world to us then ? We are mammals just the same, so we are designed to die after our first pregnancy hmmmm interesting.


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## Kalipha

I watch plenty of nature programs actually.

You can't compare two entirely different animals' lifespans. Lions have a longer lifespan than cats, yeah. But they also live longer in captivity than in the wild (Lion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "though a male lion may reach an age of 15 or 16 years if he manages to avoid being ousted by other males, the majority of adult males do not live to be more than 10 years old." "Lions can reach an age of over 20 years in captivity")

Who said anything about dying after the first pregnancy? I said 'after reproductive age'. A successful animal is the one that produces the most young in its lifetime. My point is that what happens after it is able to produce young is irrelavent to natural selection.

As for what makes humanity different to the rest of animals, here, I shall give you a list:

Caring for your elderly, feeding them and providing for them when they are no longer capable of fending for themselves - unnatural
Medicine, allowing an animal that got itself injured or is weak or sick to live and produce young rather than dying - unnatural
Preventing reproductions for lifestyle reasons (pill for humans, spaying your own animals) - unnatural

None of these things are BAD, there are good reasons humanity had chosen to do this, but they're not natural. There are no toothless grey muzzled lions being fed by their prides lingering on into their 20s. It just dies. A wild animal whose kidneys fail late in life and it can't process its food simply dies and as long as its body worked perfectly in its prime will have had young and passed on its 'kidneys fail late in life' genes with no penalty.

Edit: So in short, no, 'mother nature' has no different 'design' for humans than other animals, its just we have used technology to overrule the normal order of things (live, reproduce, die when old or sick). Compassion makes us care for those of our kind who are old or sick. A lion (or a cat) will simply kick out those who are a burden and let them starve, like a mother cat will refuse to feed a sick kitten knowing her energies are better spent raising her healthy kittens. Can you see a human mother doing that? It's what makes us different. I don't know about specifially better, but different. The same with our pets. In the wild an old cat will be left alone to starve. A pet cat will have its food lovingly tailored to its failing body and mushed down into easily chewed bits.


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## Saikou

Of course wild animals, for the most part, live longer in captivity than in the wild as they are protected from all those dangers that a wild animal has to face. They also pretty much protected from various diseases. That still doesn't equate to what you were saying which was Mother Nature did not intend an animal to die of old age.

I have no idea why you feel the need to be so aggressive towards me, its not the first time on this thread you have gone on the attack for no apparent reason. Maybe you just like to sh!t stir provoke a response who knows. Your problem

The debate before was whether raw food was appropriate for all ages. You decide not, I disagree- end of


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## Kalipha

Indeed, I was just providing the reasoning behind my opinion  Simply that the raw is a natural diet and therefore imho great, but that as we want our pets to survive into old age and beyond we sometimes need to resort to non-natural methods. I'm sorry if you think supporting my opinions counts as an 'attack'. I just think there is a place in this world for unnatural man-made diets for cats (such as when one has kidney failure) and that redproducing nature cannot cure everything, because nature is cruel and has no interest in the sick, weak or elderly.

Nature is survivial of the fittest. Which by definition means the death of the weak. If you love a sick person or cat, it's humanity vs nature.


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## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> I just think there is a place in this world for unnatural man-made diets for cats (such as when one has kidney failure) and that redproducing nature cannot cure everything


One could argue that fed a more natural diet, there is a reduced likelihood of the cat developing kidney disease and the other problems listed above - so man made foods could be considered a contributing factor to early onset disease - not Mother Nature. Admittedly, a natural diet can not overcome genetic weakness, but I believe can go some way to reducing the effects of those.

As for genetic weaknesses thats in our court to attempt to rectify, as those sorts of things may not be man made but are certainly contributed greatly by man with irresponsible breeding.


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## Kalipha

Saikou said:


> One could argue that fed a more natural diet, there is a reduced likelihood of the cat developing kidney disease and the other problems listed above - so man made foods could be considered a contributing factor to early onset disease - not Mother Nature. Admittedly, a natural diet can not overcome genetic weakness, but I believe can go some way to reducing the effects of those.
> 
> As for genetic weaknesses thats in our court to attempt to rectify, as those sorts of things may not be man made but are certainly contributed greatly by man with irresponsible breeding.


One could indeed argue that. I'd be one of them  I agree with all of this, actually.

Feeding naturally I think reduces the chance of sickness, which is why I do it. I think some damage has been done by selective breeding, in so far as breeding for type by definition narrows a given breed's gene pool. It's just I've studied geneitcs and consensus says the majority of species have illnesses they are prone to in old age as it has proliferated in the gene pool without ever being of detriment to the animal in natural selection terms, as they either never reach old age, or reach it having reproduced already. Now that we're actually seeing our animals live to old age we are aware and breeding against late-onset illnesses in a way nature doesn't. This can only be a positive thing 

I agree a natural, healthy diet will maintain a body in its prime the longest - it is preventative. However, say, continuing to feed raw to a cat who has already developed kidney failure, will probably kill it rather than cure it. Nature deals in prevention, keeping an creature healthy. Once a creature is sick nature largely washes her hands of it.


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## Siamese Kelly

Clare Ferris said:


> Well im not sure I remembered you for your smiley face and I would not say we met up either, I merely stubbled across you at a cat show...take a look at my website maybe then you will remember.?
> As for reading again well I cannot really be bothered to be honest, I do not like what you have said and will leave it as that. As for person S I know exactly who im referring to and I would guess her grievances with certain people are similar to mine. I have heard enough from certain people to have a fair idea of what type of person they are. Bullying comes in many forms theres the physical and the mental both of which can come at differents degress. I may have upset people by stating my profession as another poster has said certain people saw this as an oppertunity to have a go. :frown2:
> So I have talents why thankyou.lol. No seriously if people are put of by my profession then I cannot be held responsible for that, that is their problem not mine. I do not see why this has to be brought up time and time again. It has been taken far to personnally by some people and its sad really.
> I have made sweeping comments have I and whta exactly where these then that provoked sucha strong response from you?


LOL and triple LOL,Clare it was not me you stumbled across at a cat show dear and no stubble was to be found not on me or my fellaLMAO,i am female for all intents and purposes,that was my fella ya silly woman,BTW he acts as he finds and mostly he is a very polite manI knew you would assume that i was he-people skills Clare-a great tool in life to haveIt is not your profession that offends people,it was your generalisationsLOL,you ARE responsible for what you post and it was that and the manner that was challenged,you then seemed intent on taking up someone elses grief when you really shouldnt have since you are not in possession of any of the factsLMAOAlso i know you barley mention your profession so that did baffle me why it kept cropping upLOL What provoked such strong responses-Hmmmm-now theres a tough one to answer-but here goes-Yrs of experience,dedication,heartache,love,passion,peoples life dedication,true and deep passion and knowledge of breeding and there furbabies,understanding to name a few reasons, I find that you think this is SAD very SAD but again not surprising:Then to read the poo that you posted in a random effort to claim that your profession which you barley mentioned makes you far more informed and qualified to be breeding,yes Clare i can see why peoples strong responses would confuse you:Then you go on off on a tangent in a lame attempt to be hero in defending someone elses name,when you were once again challenged on this,you then whine on about bullying-i think you are and have been very mislead in your judgement,but thats your choice,in life Clare you cannot attempt to take on someone elses crap,post what you did and then whinge as if you are a victim of sorts when it comes back at you,as for opportunity to "have a go" well if you beg for apple pie,ya cant complain when ya ya get apple pieLOL X 3,It isnt just 1 or more peeps that you would get the responses you have,post your statements on any forum or go to any cat shows and state them,i think you'll find the responses on here have been quite tame


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## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> However, say, continuing to feed raw to a cat who has already developed kidney failure, will probably kill it rather than cure it.


I disagree with that statement. As I said above, new thinking was that in early stages normal levels of quality was more beneficial. Its not the protein levels that are the most destructive its the levels of phosphorous.

Every cat is different, what works for some doesn't work for others. If the sad situation occured then each pet owner has to work out what they think is best for their cat. If that happens to be commercial food, fine, but equally that may prove to be a natural diet. It is incorrect to state that a natural diet for a CRF sufferer would "kill it".


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## Siamese Kelly

Clare Ferris said:


> I think you have! well I agree there are many people who do get put off by the catty comments made and the banding together of certain people who like to *try* and make new breeders lives hell. Oh and then theres all the back stabbing that goes on. It is certainly not a place for the weak people apparently that are easily upset. Standing up for yourself aswell brings its own problems.:mad2::mad2:
> Well back to the thread in question I got a diet sheet and samples of food plus two really cute bowls, vacc and m/c details and the contract ofcourse.
> I think the basics is all you really need anything extra is really upto the breeder I suppose I know of one breeder whos mother knits ablanket for the kitten to go with, thats a nice gesture I think


Thinking Clare is not as good as it claims to be,i mean i would suggest it depends on the person,life is life in all aspects,standing up for yourself is one thing thats a good thing imo,but do that and know what your standing up for,standing up for someone else and taking on there grief when you have no idea what your talking about is a bit sillyLOLBit of an extreme claim that some people like to try and make new breeders lives hell-again a load of tosh,some people i think its true to say just wont sit and smilie at idiots and accept utter crap from whom ever in life or on line,i did suggest you re-read what you stated but you cant be bothered just as you cant be bothered responding yet you jump on at every opportunity to do soLOL


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## Milly22

Clare Ferris said:


> Well im not sure I remembered you for your smiley face and I would not say we met up either, I merely stubbled across you at a cat show...take a look at my website maybe then you will remember.?
> As for reading again well I cannot really be bothered to be honest, I do not like what you have said and will leave it as that. As for person S I know exactly who im referring to and I would guess her grievances with certain people are similar to mine. I have heard enough from certain people to have a fair idea of what type of person they are. Bullying comes in many forms theres the physical and the mental both of which can come at differents degress. I may have upset people by stating my profession as another poster has said certain people saw this as an oppertunity to have a go. :frown2:
> So I have talents why thankyou.lol. No seriously if people are put of by my profession then I cannot be held responsible for that, that is their problem not mine. I do not see why this has to be brought up time and time again. It has been taken far to personnally by some people and its sad really.
> I have made sweeping comments have I and whta exactly where these then that provoked sucha strong response from you?


I just don't seem to gell/jell/gel with you.

I may be way off mark but you come across as if *you think you know it all *imho and you don't. No-one does.

Except Saikou but I think that is because she* is *a cat! :eek6:



Clare Ferris said:


> What can I say I often hit an extra key when I type fast ... Is that ok with you?


Okay I believe you.

Anyway, life to lead and all that............... :thumbsup:

Knit one, pearl one, knit one, pearl one, knit one,.......


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