# Smoke kittens?



## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Hi
The kittens are now 10 days old they are slowly changing colour we have one blue but the other 2 look like a black smoke and possibly a blue smoke? What do you think?


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Forgot go mention they are ragamuffin mum is black and white and dad blue carries silver.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

In theory silver can't be carried, but it can be low grade and hard to see leading to mis-registered cats.

Do you mean Ragdolls or RagaMuffins? I've not heard of a black ragdoll, and the GCCF doesn't recognise silver or smoke point Ragdolls.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> In theory silver can't be carried, but it can be low grade and hard to see leading to mis-registered cats.
> 
> Do you mean Ragdolls or RagaMuffins? I've not heard of a black ragdoll, and the GCCF doesn't recognise silver or smoke point Ragdolls.


 Sorry i meant Ragamuffins (phone always predicts to ragdoll)


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

You can't carry silver, it's a dominant colour so one parent must be silver to produce silver. 

The dad could be low expression silver as I would say those kittens look like they could be smoke but it's really difficult to tell at this age unless they're high expression silver


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> You can't carry silver, it's a dominant colour so one parent must be silver to produce silver.
> 
> The dad could be low expression silver as I would say those kittens look like they could be smoke but it's really difficult to tell at this age unless they're high expression silver


This is dad


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

He has light roots however was not sold as a smoke just blue.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> He has light roots however was not sold as a smoke just blue.


Are either of his parents silver?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Several Facebook pages specialise in kitten colours, where you'll find breeders who do smokes.



OrientalSlave said:


> I've not heard of a black ragdoll, and the GCCF doesn't recognise silver or smoke point Ragdolls.


There are solid, mink & silver Ragdoll breeders around the world, including the U.K.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Are either of his parents silver?


Yes his father is silver.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

The blue on the left has no under coat compared to the one on the right where as when they were born they were both the same colour. The blacks markings are coming out more as she gets older.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Dad is silver, so will need to be reregistered as such so kittens can be registered as smoke if that's what they are


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Dad is silver, so will need to be reregistered as such so kittens can be registered as smoke if that's what they are


Ok thank you I will get him reregistered. I'm guessing if they are smoke it will become more apparent as they grow?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Do you show? Judges should have picked up if he was the wrong colour.

I wouldn’t say from the 2 photos posted he is definitely silver, have you got a mentor or friends in the breed who can see him either in person or better photos.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Ok thank you I will get him reregistered. I'm guessing if they are smoke it will become more apparent as they grow?


It will, but as spotty said it would be helpful to show him if you don't already for judges to check what his colour is. Which lines is he from, is he UK bred?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> There are solid, mink & silver Ragdoll breeders around the world, including the U.K.


But I suspect not registering gccf which is the majority registry in the UK. There are also breeders registering with TICA, FiFE and CFA in the UK so I guess those will be the ones registering solid, mink & silver ragdolls.

The OP hasn't said which registry they are with.

Out of curiosity I read the GCCF RagaMuffin stuff, and they can produce pointed & mink variants, and sepia must be possible as well. Silver / smoke cats are accepted as well.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

We have not shown him yet, his dad is silver shaded and mum is blue.
This is the black one under his belly defiantly changed since being born. Markings on the face almost look tabby but I'm.guessing they are ghost markings and will fade?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I'm inclined to say smoke


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm inclined to say smoke


I'm thinking the same I sent a few pictures to another breeder (Maine coon) and they said the same I'm not sure on the blue smoke I thought maybe fever coat but it's hard to tell. The black definitely has some defined Marks coming out but cannot see an under coat yet but I know smokes develop over time.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> I'm thinking the same I sent a few pictures to another breeder (Maine coon) and they said the same I'm not sure on the blue smoke I thought maybe fever coat but it's hard to tell. The black definitely has some defined Marks coming out but cannot see an under coat yet but I know smokes develop over time.


Blues are awful, both my girls are blue Maine Coons. My smoke girl is a beautiful high smoke but my blue tortie is a real pickle. Her head looks solid and her body looks smoke, and she's with white so all the bits we'd normally use to identify smoke are white! Her dad is very low expression blue smoke so it's really hard to know. I feel your pain!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

I agree blues are so difficult! Both of these blue kittens are different but then they change so much between 2 weeks and 12 weeks so I don't want to assume I know what colour they may be.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

To me the first is solid and the second is smoke, but its so hard to tell from photos


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> To me the first is solid and the second is smoke, but its so hard to tell from photos


Yes that's what I'm thinking you can see the colour difference between the blues but as you said hard to see from pictures and so hard to even get pictures of them! They are starting to venture out of the bed now so I'm setting up the play pen later!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

They're so cute, I adore Muffins. Always wanted one and very pleased to hear they come in smoke!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Me too as much as i love all cats muffins and Maine coons are definitely my favourite. Although I've never owned a Maine coon I hope to one day (pet only not to breed) 
I will keep this thread updated with how they grow and how their colours change


Rufus15 said:


> They're so cute, I adore Muffins. Always wanted one and very pleased to hear they come in smoke!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

When would you expect to see an undercoat she doesn't seem to have one at the moment his face has still got the grey marks and he's got a lighter under belly but his roots still look dark on the rest of him at the moment!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

The silver at the roots doesn't tend to come through until about 5 or 6 weeks+ in semi longhair coats


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> The silver at the roots doesn't tend to come through until about 5 or 6 weeks+ in semi longhair coats


Ok I thought that may be the case ive never actually had any smokes before. On a more worrying not I think the blue smoke has swimmers legs (back legs are splayed out whilst moving) ive tried taking them up but he's very good at getting them off is it worth going to the vet to get them to do it? I've heard horror stories of vets wanting to put kittens down because of it but he's perfectly healthy gaining and weight!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Put him on a rough surface like a towel instead of vetbed or similar. Every time you see his legs in the wrong position, just put them back under him and they should correct themselves.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Ok I thought that may be the case ive never actually had any smokes before. On a more worrying not I think the blue smoke has swimmers legs (back legs are splayed out whilst moving) ive tried taking them up but he's very good at getting them off is it worth going to the vet to get them to do it? I've heard horror stories of vets wanting to put kittens down because of it but he's perfectly healthy gaining and weight!


Physio is very good for swimmers legs, are you on Facebook? There's a birth and breeding group on there which is invaluable for advice like this


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If you are going to try to manipulate his legs, make sure you hold them at the 'knee' rather than the foot.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Put him on a rough surface like a towel instead of vetbed or similar. Every time you see his legs in the wrong position, just put them back under him and they should correct themselves.


Thank you they are on a towel all the time in their bed and I've just put another down on the floor as they are venturing out of their bed now. He does not like to have the legs strapped up he instantly tucks his legs up so it goes on the foot not the knee and mum also doesn't like him having it on! I will look at physio I just keep putting them back underneath him when I see him moving.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Physio is very good for swimmers legs, are you on Facebook? There's a birth and breeding group on there which is invaluable for advice like this


I am not on face book unfortunately I have tried looking online for different physio but not found an awful lot.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Please don't strap/splint his legs  It's a very outdated idea and causes more harm than good. As QOTN said, just give him plenty of opportunity to move around on an appropriate surface and they will come right in time.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Thank you they are on a towel all the time in their bed and I've just put another down on the floor as they are venturing out of their bed now. He does not like to have the legs strapped up he instantly tucks his legs up so it goes on the foot not the knee and mum also doesn't like him having it on! I will look at physio I just keep putting them back underneath him when I see him moving.


I had a kitten who was absolutely flat, front and back legs. He did not have his legs strapped up. I had to hold him in the litter tray because he could not position himself so I had to work with him but he was fine in the end.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Ok I was not 100% on doing it and it did not feel right so will.not be doing it again. I will continue to just put him in the right position any other exercises that can help? He is certainly not letting it stop him moving he's very mobile.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Ok I was not 100% on doing it and it did not feel right so will.not be doing it again. I will continue to just put him in the right position any other exercises that can help? He is certainly not letting it stop him moving he's very mobile.


I used to gently move his legs so his joints were exercised. He did end with his feet turned slightly outwards although not enough to be a problem to him. A friend who was a physiotherapist (human) told me it was because I held his foot as I was moving his leg. She was the one who told me to gently hold his 'knee.'


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Very gentle massages also help stimulate the muscles, stroking when the joint and leg are in the correct position can help


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

QOTN said:


> I used to gently move his legs so his joints were exercised. He did end with his feet turned slightly outwards although not enough to be a problem to him. A friend who was a physiotherapist (human) told me it was because I held his foot as I was moving his leg. She was the one who told me to gently hold his 'knee.'


Ok I'll make sure to hold his knee they are not really walking yet more scooting around but it won't be long as they are nearly 3 weeks. They are getting so big and beautiful though and all so different!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

@Laurenjayneturnbull they are button cute!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> @Laurenjayneturnbull they are button cute!


They are at that lovely age where their little personalities are coming out! I'm thinking of keeping this girl although I'm not 100%.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> They are at that lovely age where their little personalities are coming out! I'm thinking of keeping this girl although I'm not 100%.


Black smokes are my favourites so I say keep


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> They are at that lovely age where their little personalities are coming out! I'm thinking of keeping this girl although I'm not 100%.


You really cannot have any idea how they will turn out at this age so don't make any decisions until you know.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

QOTN said:


> You really cannot have any idea how they will turn out at this age so don't make any decisions until you know.


Yes I think I will wait to see, not having much experience in smokes I'm curious as to how she will look! I do not advertise until 8+weeks so will have a better idea then.
She is certainly very light underneath but no obvious white roots yet.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Yes I think I will wait to see, not having much experience in smokes I'm curious as to how she will look! I do not advertise until 8+weeks so will have a better idea then.
> She is certainly very light underneath but no obvious white roots yet.


Smooshy tummy :Kiss


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

New pictures from today


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

3 weeks tomorrow


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Kittens are 3 weeks today all venturing outside the bed area and following mum when she is eating even the little guy with splayed back legs is very good at moving. We are massaging and just putting back in the right position and hopefully he will be fine soon! He is so much bigger than the 2 girls too not sure if that makes a difference with his legs but he's so chubby  the black girl is definitely looking more smoke I think? The blues I'm not sure on yet but they are both different. I just adore this stage


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Definitely a black smoke. I would lean towards one of the blues being smoke, the one lying down on the third pic


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Definitely a black smoke. I would lean towards one of the blues being smoke, the one lying down on the third pic


The blues are so difficult even in person I'm back and forth I think it will be easier as they get older well I'm hoping so anyway! As the black has grown its become much more apparent look at her neck its becoming so light!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

@Rufus15 here are some better comparisons of the blues together both have lighter bellys but are quite different. Girl is darker on the left and the boy is lighter.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> @Rufus15 here are some better comparisons of the blues together both have lighter bellys but are quite different. Girl is darker on the left and the boy is lighter.


Definitely smoke


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

So I sent some pictures of the black smoke to another breeder and they mentioned fever coat? 
I've never experienced fever coat and from pictures ive seen its not similar however I think it's because of the lack of under coat even though they are not yet 4 weeks so still young and as you can see her belly has changed even lighter her legs and face still only have silvery ghost markings.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

It doesn't look like fevercoat to me, it's usually all over not just on the belly


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> It doesn't look like fevercoat to me, it's usually all over not just on the belly


I didn't think so either. I think its the lack of under coat that is throwing them off. I mean her silver could grow out ive seen many kittens change colour as they get older. Here they are this morning


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

And this beauty


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I wouldn't be in a hurry (and I know you are not) to re-register the sire. I have seen many a kitten, blues and blacks primarily, that I would have bet my last penny were smokes... had I not known better. In all cases the kittens slowly lost what appeared to be their very silvery undercoat - though in fact a number of them had more 'silver' to their coats than actual colour.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Yes I'm in no hurry I know how much kittens can change especially as you have said blues and blacks. I have known buyers and breeders both find out a smoke is in fact not and its so easily done. My three are not even 4 weeks so still very young so could easily lose that smoke look.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

@gskinner123 also she has no under coat yet hence the not knowing whether she was smoke or not it's mainly the light belly and ghost markings on her face


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I think you have hit the nail on the head there  The lack of pigmentation to the coat in young kittens does appear to me to be linked to the coat quality ..or rather how much and what type of coat they have at this tender age.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> I think you have hit the nail on the head there  The lack of pigmentation to the coat in young kittens does appear to me to be linked to the coat quality ..or rather how much and what type of coat they have at this tender age.


This is my first time dealing with smokes her first litter was 2 solid blues so these have thrown me off a bit. They are all so different as you can see in the picture. And the black one is a mystery at the moment!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Looking at those pics, I can see now why fevercoat was suggested. The blue on the left looks to have some fevercoat on that last pic


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Looking at those pics, I can see now why fevercoat was suggested. The blue on the left looks to have some fevercoat on that last pic


It may be the poor lighting in that picture (was night time and rubbish lighting) same kitten in day light on the right in this picture.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I'd still lean towards the same if I'm honest, but they've got so much time to grow yet. Silver seems to appear behind the ears first, so perhaps keep an eye on their fur there too to see


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'd still lean towards the same if I'm honest, but they've got so much time to grow yet. Silver seems to appear behind the ears first, so perhaps keep an eye on their fur there too to see


Can fever coat happen after they are born as when he was born he was pretty much the same colour as the solid blue? Would you think the black was also fever coat then? I've never dealt with it before and as much as I'm aware the mum has been very well and not stressed.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Can fever coat happen after they are born as when he was born he was pretty much the same colour as the solid blue? Would you think the black was also fever coat then? I've never dealt with it before and as much as I'm aware the mum has been very well and not stressed.


Not as far as I know, though I've never had a kitten with it either in my foster litters or the litters I have bred. AFAIK it's caused by the mother being unwell - quite possibly only very subtly unwell - at a specific time in pregnancy, I'd guess around the time the coat is forming which is pretty late on.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

I've seen other breeders have it a few times and its normally very obviously fever coat as the head and all extremities are darker so I guess if it was only subtle it would be harder to see and its so difficult with the blues anyway. The girl who is blue is very much just blue although she has a light belly.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> I've seen other breeders have it a few times and its normally very obviously fever coat as the head and all extremities are darker so I guess if it was only subtle it would be harder to see and its so difficult with the blues anyway. The girl who is blue is very much just blue although she has a light belly.


I imagine the degree of fever coat can vary, however I meant that it might not be obvious the mother was under the weather.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> I imagine the degree of fever coat can vary, however I meant that it might not be obvious the mother was under the weather.


Oh yes cats are very good at hiding if they are not feeling 100% so I guess I wouldn't know for definite.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Just look at these guys they are so chubby and sweet now no matter what colour they are :Happy


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

And another one sorry!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'd still lean towards the same if I'm honest, but they've got so much time to grow yet. Silver seems to appear behind the ears first, so perhaps keep an eye on their fur there too to see


@Rufus15 is this what you mean by silver behind the ears? The top of her head seems to be getting lighter too.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

No I mean right in under the ears


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Oh I understand so behind the ears but underneath? It's hard to keep them very still for long now to get a proper look!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

This was a quick snap shot of her being still


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

I know we shouldn't have favourites but this girl is loving. Cannot believe they are 4 weeks old.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

@Rufus15 cannot get any good pictures of her ears but am I right in thinking the lightness on the belly and under tail is more common in smokes the picture shows the change from 10 days to today and 4 weeks old.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> @Rufus15 cannot get any good pictures of her ears but am I right in thinking the lightness on the belly and under tail is more common in smokes the picture shows the change from 10 days to today and 4 weeks old.


Yes the belly is one of the first to change, in Maine Coons at any rate. I don't know if the Muffin coat affects it


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes the belly is one of the first to change, in Maine Coons at any rate. I don't know if the Muffin coat affects it


I'm not sure if it is the same she's like a different cat on top to what she looks like in her belly  ive never heard of a kitten with fever coat progressing like that but who knows! She's a lovely quiet girl very calm natured already I have a thing for any black cats anyway :Cat


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> 3 weeks tomorrow


I adore the darker one, she's so gorgeous


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

brian james said:


> I adore the darker one, she's so gorgeous


Thank you me too i definitely have soft spot for her!


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Thank you me too i definitely have soft spot for her!


Any new pics?


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

T


brian james said:


> Any new pics?


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> T


awe she is real special treat. Have you advertised any of them yet. I'm sure you'll want to keep her


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

brian james said:


> awe she is real special treat. Have you advertised any of them yet. I'm sure you'll want to keep her


They are all lovely and its very easy to want to keep them all! Here are pictures of them all from today they are right little characters


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> They are all lovely and its very easy to want to keep them all! Here are pictures of them all from today they are right little characters


They all look amazing... the darker one is my most favourite. It puts me back in "the mood" to start thinking about a new kitty baby. My two passed away four years ago (they were both 16) I've not been able to consider another since.. until now!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> They are all lovely and its very easy to want to keep them all! Here are pictures of them all from today they are right little characters


Is there something odd about the shape of the dark ones head or is it just the camera angle?


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

MilleD said:


> Is there something odd about the shape of the dark ones head or is it just the camera angle?


I'm not sure what you mean but she was looking up to me in that picture so probably the angle this is a normal angle.


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> I'm not sure what you mean but she was looking up to me in that picture so probably the angle this is a normal angle.


I think she's just got a fluffy head


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

brian james said:


> I think she's just got a fluffy head


Yes they are all going to be long haired and still in that fluffy poofy fur look and they do have quite boxy heads but it's definitely not odd


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

She is looking less like a smoke now isn't she... And doesn't have the tell-tale silver 'spectacles' around her eyes.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> She is looking less like a smoke now isn't she... And doesn't have the tell-tale silver 'spectacles' around her eyes.


I'm still not sure the pictures don't completely show her true colours and some are in poor lighting she still has the silver around her eyes in person. Goodness knows what colour she is as I've never seen a kitten change colour wise like her either.


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> I'm still not sure the pictures don't completely show her true colours and some are in poor lighting she still has the silver around her eyes in person. Goodness knows what colour she is as I've never seen a kitten change colour wise like her either.


I can see what you mean about the change of colour. I notice it more around her chest area .


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> She is looking less like a smoke now isn't she... And doesn't have the tell-tale silver 'spectacles' around her eyes.


If not a smoke any ideas on what colour I would call her? She seems very light for just unsound colour. Cannot see any colour to label her as yet!


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

This little girl had her first try of food today she was chomping on some dry food and loved it!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> If not a smoke any ideas on what colour I would call her? She seems very light for just unsound colour. Cannot see any colour to label her as yet!


I am not saying she isn't a smoke but, believe me, I have seen kittens equally (if not more) silvery/pale who became jet black or a very sound blue when a little older. I will see if I can find some photos.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> I am not saying she isn't a smoke but, believe me, I have seen kittens equally (if not more) silvery/pale who became jet black or a very sound blue when a little older. I will see if I can find some photos.


That would be great I have seen kittens change so much as they have gotten older so I guess it could just be her kitten coat. It hopefully will be more obvious in the next few weeks.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Going away from what colour they are, I can't believe how big they are gotten! :Cat


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## brian james (Jan 10, 2019)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Going away from what colour they are, I can't believe how big they are gotten! :Cat


Gorgeous. The little one reminds me of a short-haired tortie I had. I wonder if there will be any ginger in her final coat


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

brian james said:


> Gorgeous. The little one reminds me of a short-haired tortie I had. I wonder if there will be any ginger in her final coat


It's near enough impossible for her to have orange in her as neither mum or dad and their mum and dad's don't either. I do love calicos I have a rescue one and she's beautiful!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> It's near enough impossible for her to have orange in her as neither mum or dad and their mum and dad's don't either. I do love calicos I have a rescue one and she's beautiful!


Red doesn't carry, so kittens can't get it from grandparents, and if parents aren't red based then it's absolutely impossible to get red based kittens 

Still not sure on the smoke, I think fevercoat is accurate but I'm still leaning towards smoke


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Red doesn't carry, so kittens can't get it from grandparents, and if parents aren't red based then it's absolutely impossible to get red based kittens
> 
> Still not sure on the smoke, I think fevercoat is accurate but I'm still leaning towards smoke


Yes neither parent of the kittens are red based. 
Are you thinking fever coat for the black or both the blue and black? I'm still back and forth too I'm hoping by 12 weeks I will have a better idea


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Going away from what colour they are, I can't believe how big they are gotten! :Cat


What absolutely gorgeous kittens, Congratulations whatever colour they end up


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

oliviarussian said:


> What absolutely gorgeous kittens, Congratulations whatever colour they end up


Thank you they are so lovely and brilliant temperament too :Cat


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> Yes neither parent of the kittens are red based.
> Are you thinking fever coat for the black or both the blue and black? I'm still back and forth too I'm hoping by 12 weeks I will have a better idea


I'm thinking fevercoat for all of them, but it's so hard to tell silver in pics. I'd say by 12 weeks you'll have a better idea.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm thinking fevercoat for all of them, but it's so hard to tell silver in pics. I'd say by 12 weeks you'll have a better idea.


Oh really ive never seen fever coat in person but these two to me look nothing like fever coat to me?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It interests me, particularly the fever coat aspect (not that it looks to be with these kittens).

I imported a BSH black girl from Germany from whose first litter of six, (five blacks, one blue) three were almost completely grey/silver. All eventually became beautiful blacks with sound coats and did well on the show bench. The same thing happened with her second litter, a proportion of the kittens being a strange colour.

A female from the first litter went to a breeder friend and she too had two litters (black, chocolate, blue and lilac) and some were SO ''washed out" for colour and "silvery" all over that you could barely guess what their eventual colour would be. Again, all ended up with perfectly nice, normal looking, coat colour.

There is nothing that would lead my friend and I to believe that this was a result of fever coat and we came to the conclusion it was some strange anomaly in the line of breeding.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Did the mum have a silver grandparent? Although not carried, being dominant, a silver grandparent can sometimes give a colder colour in the fur. 

British coats are peculiar (in the best way), no other breed has such a dense and crisp coat, and the tone and shade of colours in the fur of a British is so different to any other breed. It's got so much more depth of colour. I don't know if the density of the coat plays a part, but I do find it fascinating, it's one of my main interests in British.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus, no, they were silver free pedigress in all cases for the matings that produced those kittens.

If silver is going to influence a non silver cat's colour it wouldn't be in this way/to this extent. I knew my own kittens could only be black but my friend's kittens could have been one of four colours ... And it was literally "guess the colour" for the first few weeks.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

That's really interesting, I'd love see pics if you have any to hand. Silver is a special interest of mine, so to see kittens born looking silver-like with no silver in the pedigree would really help my learning


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

It would be a interesting to see pictures as it could well be the same with this black kitten she could just have an unsound coat I sent my sister (previous vet nurse) a picture and asked her even though she's not an expert on colours and she said "I have no idea she looks like a zebra":Joyful


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Those are ghost markings, normal in all solids and will fade with time


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> It interests me, particularly the fever coat aspect (not that it looks to be with these kittens).
> 
> I imported a BSH black girl from Germany from whose first litter of six, (five blacks, one blue) three were almost completely grey/silver. All eventually became beautiful blacks with sound coats and did well on the show bench. The same thing happened with her second litter, a proportion of the kittens being a strange colour.
> 
> ...





gskinner123 said:


> Rufus, no, they were silver free pedigress in all cases for the matings that produced those kittens.
> 
> If silver is going to influence a non silver cat's colour it wouldn't be in this way/to this extent. I knew my own kittens could only be black but my friend's kittens could have been one of four colours ... And it was literally "guess the colour" for the first few weeks.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> It interests me, particularly the fever coat aspect (not that it looks to be with these kittens).
> 
> I imported a BSH black girl from Germany from whose first litter of six, (five blacks, one blue) three were almost completely grey/silver. All eventually became beautiful blacks with sound coats and did well on the show bench. The same thing happened with her second litter, a proportion of the kittens being a strange colour.
> 
> ...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Are those the kittens being referred to above?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Rufus15 said:


> Are those the kittens being referred to above?


Yes


Rufus15 said:


> Are those the kittens being referred to above?


Yes


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Black self born very silver identical to fc. (But 100% not fc.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Choc self.

And the reason it can not be fb.is because each litter was the same. Its something within that particular line


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Not being familiar with the line I wouldn't dispute you, but they in no way resemble silver kittens


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> Not being familiar with the line I wouldn't dispute you, but they in no way resemble silver kittens


Rufus, the point is that, when very young, they resembled smokes... Most people who commented at the time, not knowing the pedigrees, all said they thought "smoke".


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Rufus15 said:


> Not being familiar with the line I wouldn't dispute you, but they in no way resemble silver kittens


I wasnt saying they do resemble silver kittens. I have never had silver cats so i wouldnt really know. But i had ppl constantly ask me if they were smokes when i posted pictures

They look very silvered. Very similar to what fever coat looks like, again not fc. Just something interesting within that breeding line.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

we love bsh's said:


> Black self born very silver identical to fc. (But 100% not fc.


This is really interesting to see as I've seen some black cats with minor ghost markings but not like this and amazing how it changed too.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Laurenjayneturnbull said:


> This is really interesting to see as I've seen some black cats with minor ghost markings but not like this and amazing how it changed too.


Classic based tabby ghosting is always more noticeable than mackerel.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Classic based tabby ghosting is always more noticeable than mackerel.


The little black one in this litter has more classic type ghosting but only the legs and tail mainly although she even has the face markings which was the reason I didn't think it was fever coat.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

Beautiful cats @Laurenjayneturnbull please post more pics as they grow.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Summercat said:


> Beautiful cats @Laurenjayneturnbull please post more pics as they grow.


@Summercat I will definitely be posting more pics as they get older.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> Rufus, the point is that, when very young, they resembled smokes... Most people who commented at the time, not knowing the pedigrees, all said they thought "smoke".





we love bsh's said:


> I wasnt saying they do resemble silver kittens. I have never had silver cats so i wouldnt really know. But i had ppl constantly ask me if they were smokes when i posted pictures
> 
> They look very silvered. Very similar to what fever coat looks like, again not fc. Just something interesting within that breeding line.


That's what I mean, they don't look anything like smokes


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Kittens are 5 weeks old today.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Do you have pics of parents? I think we could do with more pics of dad particularly, different parts of the undercoat so head, back, tummy, legs, seeing mum would be helpful too, as currently although they may look somewhat smoke we don't know if it's actually possible from the parents


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

You get frosting in Norwegians, the kittens are born with a normal coat colour e.g black but as they get older they develop a silver appearances to the coat, it is not always the whole coat that seems to be affected. It seems to run in lines. Sheep and Loki were both frosted (uncle and niece) and are part of the university of Bern's study in to it. http://www.genetics.unibe.ch/research/cat/frosted_kitten/index_eng.html

Here is Loki at 5 weeks old and not frosted, by 13 weeks old he had his belted Galloway appearance (I can't find a photo of him at that age at the moment) then at 4 months old showing the distinct frosting. Now apart from being a sunshine black, the frosting is normal and he has a fantastic coat quality.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

They have grown so much! The black kitten has exactly the same coat colour quality as the black kittens bred by myself and a friend. I don't quite understand how we are saying this black kitten could well be a smoke and yet the BSH kittens look "nothing like smokes"


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Do you have pics of parents? I think we could do with more pics of dad particularly, different parts of the undercoat so head, back, tummy, legs, seeing mum would be helpful too, as currently although they may look somewhat smoke we don't know if it's actually possible from the parents


This is dad, do not have many pictures on this phone.


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> They have grown so much! The black kitten has exactly the same coat colour quality as the black kittens bred by myself and a friend. I don't quite understand how we are saying this black kitten could well be a smoke and yet the BSH kittens look "nothing like smokes"


I have never had a kitten have this coat colour it does look similar to your previous kittens I agree. When did your kittens begin to look their final colour?


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Few updated pictures! The 2 greys haven't started to eat yet but the little black girl has been seen eating now and then!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I think the blues are now looking more solid, which would fit with the possible fevercoat, but the jury is still out on the black for me


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I think the blues are now looking more solid, which would fit with the possible fevercoat, but the jury is still out on the black for me


Yes the blues appear solid although both look different still and the black is still not any easier to say what colour she is!


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## Alice D (Jan 23, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> Black smokes are my favourites so I say keep


Hello I know nothing about cat breeding! We had a Siberian Forest black smoke cat ( ex stud and retired) His fur was beautiful when you parted it it was pure white underneath In fact in my opinion he was the most beautiful cat I've ever seen! I know everyone say that! We've recently had to have him put to sleep so we miss him terribly!
We are catless now!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Alice D said:


> Hello I know nothing about cat breeding! We had a Siberian Forest black smoke cat ( ex stud and retired) His fur was beautiful when you parted it it was pure white underneath In fact in my opinion he was the most beautiful cat I've ever seen! I know everyone say that! We've recently had to have him put to sleep so we miss him terribly!
> We are catless now!


Sorry to hear about your loss. A house is not a home without a cat  I've never seen a black smoke Sibby, he sounds lovely


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## Laurenjayneturnbull (Nov 8, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I think the blues are now looking more solid, which would fit with the possible fevercoat, but the jury is still out on the black for me


@Rufus15 kittens are now nearly 7 weeks and I'm still none the wiser on her colour! Can black kittens just turn white? The kittens are all doing well!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

We really need to see her back with her coat parted. Blacks are always lighter on the tummy, in semi longhair at least, as adolescents. 

Get a comb and brush a parting down her back, and get pics in daylight please


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