# Why Feed Raw?



## Guest (Aug 17, 2008)

*Why Feed Raw?* ​
Dogs have been fed kibbled foods for the past fifty or so years with what seems to be great results. Dogs are not dying outright from starvation or malnutrition, and seem to be happy and fairly healthy. You certainly can get dogs with glossy coats and healthy bodies (healthy being used loosely) that live well into their teens while being fed kibbled foods. Yet the veterinary community has been seeing increases in things like cancer, obesity, diabetes, unilateral hip dysplasia, dermatitises, food allergies, kidney problems, pancreas problems, and liver problems (and their medical techniques and methods have evolved tremendously to deal with these; many veterinarians are very capable people who mean well and can be quite good at treating illness and disease). Just about every system in the dog has been affected in some way, shape, or form by some disease or problem that did not 'exist' prior to the advent of kibbled foods or was not recognized as a big issue. Part of this increase is due to the fact that more people own dogs today and that illnesses are more quickly diagnosed nowadays, but many of these diseases have been shown to have strong links to diet-particularly in human research (like adult onset diabetes and obesity and cancer, for example). Many of our pets' body processes parallel our own, so who is to say that processed food will not affect them similarly?

But on the whole, most people are happy to feed their dogs kibbled food and coexist with smelly dog turds and stinky dog breath. Dogs are dogs; they are supposed to smell, right? Within the past 10-15 years or so it has finally been recognized that stinky breath is a problem for dogs because it underlies a bigger problem: periodontal disease. The pet industry has played off of this tremendously, bringing about an era of pet chews, dental bones, toothbrushes, toothpastes, plaque-scraping foods and chewies and toys, etc. More things to spend your money on because your dog *needs* them to be healthy, right? The problem of big smelly dog turds has everyone up in arms, as these turds pollute our parks, sidewalks, streets, and communities. It is the responsible owners who have to suffer, as the turd problem has resulted in stricter leash laws, dog ownership laws, and in some communities an outright 'dogs are not welcome' attitude, plus a plethora of 'quick fixes' to help manage the problem: pooper scoopers, waste digesters, special scooping baggies to carry with you on walks, extra enzymes to add to the dog's food so it will digest more of it. Has anyone ever questioned why they do not treat these problems at their source instead of just dealing with the symptoms as they surface?

Yes, people have questioned this as well as the whole idea of pet food; hence, raw feeding has been 'resurfacing', so to speak. People call it a 'fad' without realizing that raw feeding has been around a heck of a lot longer than kibbled foods: one million years of raw to only 100 years-at the most-of kibble. Pelleted, processed food is the fad that has somehow managed to integrate itself into every single aspect of our pets' lives: medical care, training, leisure, nutrition, showing, breeding, you name it. This is, by and large, the way people feed their pets. It is easy, convenient, relatively cheap, and provides a much-needed outlet for all the waste products we as a society create (yep, waste products. That is exactly what goes into kibble.). Some entrepreneurial person-James Spratt-got the idea of feeding "biscuits" to our dogs as a meal, and the very first dog kibble was born (click here to read more about it). These biscuits then evolved into foods that contained all the meats and by-products that were no longer fit for human consumption (particularly after the 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act and the 1906 Meat Inspection Act, which created the "meat dichotomy" of 'fit for human consumption' and 'unfit for human consumption'. Something had to be done with all that 'unfit' meat...), and thus modern commercial foods were created. Kibbled pet food is simply a by-product of our industrial era that ushered in modernity and the desire to do things cheap, easy, and fast. It is no wonder that many of the big-name brands of dog food are made by companies that create a lot of other food products-Nestle, Mars, Colgate-Palmolive, etc. They have easy access to cheap ingredients made by their own factories.

But kibbled foods have come a long way since their early prototypes. They have improved much, and there are a number of smaller companies that produce holistic, organic, or premium kibbles from human grade ingredients that are of great quality as far as commercial foods go. The majority of pet owners are happy to just feed brand-name, pre-made foods to their pets because it is convenient, easy, and their animals eat the food and appear to do well on it. They are part of the consumer society that swallows slick advertisements hook, line, and sinker. And if there is one thing pet food companies have down, it is advertising. They advertise all over the place: on TV, on the web, in hundreds of magazines, in schools, at dog shows (think of the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions; free bags of the sponsor's kibble are given to the winners at many dog shows.), at zoos, on billboards, and (most importantly) in your veterinarian's office (think of all those shelves filled with Purina foods, Hill's Science Diet, etc.). Raw feeding, however, has no such advertising capabilities, because people are supporting their local butchers, ranchers, farmers, etc., and are encouraging sustainable living practices rather than paying big bucks to make people buy some commercially-produced product. Raw feeding's advertising is through word-of-mouth and through the healthy dogs and cats that are fed such a diet (although with the advent of commercial raw diets, this has changed a bit. This site, however, does not nor ever will advocate commercial raw diets.).

One can rightfully ask: why raw and not kibble? People are asking that every day, and some are coming to the realization that while their dogs may be doing well, they could be doing better. This is one of the reasons people switch their pets if their pets do not have some major health problem. They switch because they believe their dogs or cats can have better quality lives if they are fed a raw diet. Sure, the dog's coat may be shiny and it may have a fit body while eating kibble, but they believe raw feeding can make it better and healthier. Here are some of the benefits people have seen in their dogs when feeding a raw diet:

Clean, fresh breath
Clean, shiny, white teeth
More energy and/or more stable energy (no hyperactivity)
Softer, shinier coat
No doggy odor to their coat
Firmer, more muscled body that is not 'doughy' like their kibble-fed counterparts
Decreased itching and scratching
Better weight maintenance
Overall better health (evidenced by less trips to the vet and less money spent on vet bills)
Smaller, almost odorless poops that are quick to decompose
Stronger immune system
A kibble-fed dog, while exhibiting a soft, shiny coat and a seemingly healthy body will often still exhibit the following:

Dog breath (rancidity and stinkiness may vary)
Stained teeth, tartar covered teeth, or teeth encrusted with calculus
Periodontal disease (85% of kibble-fed dogs over the age of 3 have this)
Itchy skin Doggy odor to coat (varies in intensity)
Body is too flaccid and may feel soft or 'doughy' to the touch, despite dog maintaining the proper weight
Large poops relative to body size that do not decompose quickly (softness and stinkiness may vary)
Small fatty benign tumors that thrive from the constant supply of sugars provided by all the carbohydrates in the diet (Damjanov, I. 2000. Pathology for the Health-Related Professions. W.B. Saunders Company. pg 80)
Greasy feel to the coat (greasiness may vary), resulting in frequent (once a month or more) bathing
Premature aging caused by periodontal disease and immune system 'overload' (immune system is constantly working against the toxins pouring into the body from the mouth and is in a constant state of arousal; see Raw Meaty Bones for more detail.)
Most people consider all the above-mentioned problems normal (how did we get to the point where we consider all this normal? ). Since most people have never encountered raw fed dogs, they do not know what they are looking for and do not have anything to which they can compare their dogs. They may think their dog's breath and health is fine until they smell a raw-fed dog's breath and 'see' its health, just like many people think their dog is "well-trained" (it 'sits' and 'comes' when they ask...sometimes) until they come across a truly impeccably trained animal.
Raw feeding owners have woken up to the fact that their pets could have a better quality of life if they were fed a species appropriate raw diet that nature designed for them. They realized that there is a big difference between eating enough to survive and eating well. Kibble provided their pets with sufficient caloric intake and seemed to meet all their pets' nutritional requirements, but were their animals really living well and healthfully? They said 'no', and turned to a more natural way of feeding their animals.

Read more...​


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

well for me eating raw food means i don't need to cook it when i get hungry so its just there... i mean i only get food poisioning every now and again


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

interesting, did you see the arguement in the vetinary times about this? they managed to bring vegitarianism and tail docking in to it lol


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2008)

minnie said:


> interesting, did you see the arguement in the vetinary times about this? they managed to bring vegitarianism and tail docking in to it lol


No, is it online?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Very interesting reading AJ thanks this is "food for thought". I currently feed Acana which is put out by the makers of Orijen and their plant is in my province Alberta as many ingredients as possible are locally sourced...
jill


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## Mattie (Aug 9, 2008)

Feeding raw also has it's problems, maybe not as many. Raw beef has to be frozen then thawed before feeding it to your dog. I can't remember what the freezing kills but it can kill dogs.

Many dogs are alergic to raw meat, a friend's dog was fed raw from when he was still with his mother, never been fed anything else but he developed an alergy to raw meat and had to move over to kibble. I have a dog that is alergic to raw meat as well.

Ideally I prefer to home cook my dog food but with 6 dogs to feed it is impossible, mainly because my health isn't as good as it should be and I would be doing more harm by feeding homecooked then kibble when I couldn't cook.

The best thing is to research all dog foods, raw, homecooked, tinned, kibble etc and go for what you are happy with. There is a lot of bad dog food out these, but if you do your research you will get what is best for your dog.


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## Dennyboy (Jan 3, 2008)

Mattie said:


> Feeding raw also has it's problems, maybe not as many. Raw beef has to be frozen then thawed before feeding it to your dog. I can't remember what the freezing kills but it can kill dogs.
> 
> Many dogs are alergic to raw meat, a friend's dog was fed raw from when he was still with his mother, never been fed anything else but he developed an alergy to raw meat and had to move over to kibble. I have a dog that is alergic to raw meat as well.
> 
> ...


Hi i remeber that Beef bones had to be frozen before being fed but couldnt remeber why.
I have looked into it quick and found that the cow can carry a disease that can make a dog infertile,and freezing kills it.

I also remember reading that Pork bones should be frozen for at least 3 weeks,but again cant find the article again...

Always ensure the bones are completly defrosted before fed too.

Will have a look later see if i can find the info i read,but it may be out of date now as there is so much more coming to light that is different to what was said before  confusing

Mel


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2008)

*Arguments against raw feeding put forward by other pet owners, veterinarians, and pet food companies.*​
Is there any validity to them? Since this is an honest and candid look at raw feeding, I will be frank: yes, these claims may have some validity to them, but the 'problems' with raw feeding are not the problems of epidemic, drastic proportions that they are made out to be. There are risks to feeding raw, just as there are risks to feeding kibble. No one seems to mention the risks of feeding kibble, perhaps because pet food companies have been very good at making people believe kibbled food is a risk-free diet for their pets. Here are some of the risks of feeding raw:

Choking.
Yes, choking can happen with raw meaty bones. The primary culprit is a raw meaty bone that is too small for the dog (such as single chicken wings or necks). To prevent this from occurring, feed big raw meaty bones. Additionally, dogs that have been eating commercial food must learn how to chew. They do not chew their kibble but typically "inhale" and gulp the food down; they try to do this with their first raw meaty bone and quickly learn that they need to CHEW their food. So choking can and does occasionally happen. However, think of all the other things that dogs choke on: kibble, pieces of rawhide, rocks, sticks, water, raquet balls, tennis balls, broken-off pieces of synthetic chew bones, pieces of toys. People tell you your dog will choke to death on raw bones, but they conveniently neglect to mention all the other things dogs choke on, including kibble (ever hear your pet scarf its food and then suddenly give a nice big 'HORK'? Your pet just choked. Good thing they managed to cough it up; other dogs have not been so lucky.). Heck, dogs will choke on their own spit!! I know mine has. The truth of it is that any object the dog places into its mouth presents a choking hazard. I personally have heard of more dogs choking on and then dying from tennis balls than I have heard of raw-fed animals choking on their raw meaty bones (let alone dying from them!).

Intestinal Perforation and Obstruction.
Yes, I suppose these could happen and have happened to dogs. However, as one JAVMA article put it: "the actual incidence of complications resulting from the ingestion of raw bones is unknown" (Freeman, L.M. and K.E. Michel. Evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. JAVMA. 218(5): 705-709). People are claiming that this happens all the time without ever providing evidence for these claims.

Bacterial septicemia.
Yes, this could possibly happen, but it is rather rare (even in kibble-fed dogs) and usually occurs only in unwell animals that are incapable of dealing with a population of bacteria (which, coincidentally, is all throughout their intestines anyway): immune compromised pets, sick pets, animals that have an underlying health issue. As with all other anti-raw claims, you cannot take this one at face value. You need to probe and question. What, exactly, was the animal being fed? Were there any other complicating factors? Was the bacteria septicemia secondary to some other health problem or following recent vaccination (which can depress the immune system by 80% for as long as 10 days post-vaccination)? Can they conclusively determine that the dog got 'sick' from its food (remember, bacteria are absolutely everywhere, and dogs often have a habit of eating anything and everything)? The unfortunate truth of it is that many vets and pet owners will simply blame the diet than work to find the real cause. An example of this is on the Rawfed.com homepage: the article of the two cats that supposedly died from salmonella. If you want a more in-depth discussion of bacteria, see the Bacteria myth. Additionally, if a raw-fed dog (or any dog) is afflicted with bacterial septicemia, one must ask "Why? Why this dog? Why now?" Not EVERY dog (raw-fed or otherwise) is afflicted with bacterial septicemia, so there must be something going on that made this dog susceptible to an overgrowth of bacteria.

Parasites.
Yes, this can happen, but if you are getting your meat from a human-approved source, this is not an issue (despite people trying to blow it out of proportion and make you think it is). Just think about the kind of meat that goes into kibble (dead, dying, diseased, or disabled) and you will be much happier knowing your dog is getting real human-grade meat in its fresh form. Yes, there will always be a minimal risk that your dog can contract some parasite from meat, but most parasites are not life-threatening and can be dealt with easily (did I mention there was a minimal risk?). Contrast this to the toxic molds that caused thousands of bags of dog food to be pulled off the shelves once dogs starting getting sick and dying. For more information on the parasite half-truth, see the Parasite myth.

This is what it comes down to: everything has a risk associated with it. That is the way life is. Regardless of what you feed your pets, there will ALWAYS be some sort of risk. These are the main risks of feeding a raw diet, but they are minimal risks, and people who feed raw truly feel that the benefits outweigh any possible risks. Claims of 'hundreds of dogs' suffering from punctured intestines or 'a high percentage of dogs' dying from pancreatitis induced by the "high fat content" in meat are unfounded scare tactics and undocumented generalizations. Kibble has risks, as well. Even feeding your dog a premium kibble still puts it at risk for choking, bloat, cancer, diabetes, obesity, telescoping bowel, anal sac problems, joint problems, and periodontal disease (which allows bacteria and bacterial toxins to enter your pet's body and affect every single organ). Home-cooked diets also have their own set of risks: unbalanced nutrition (since cooking alters and destroys many of the necessary nutrients) resulting in a myriad of health problems (some of which are fatal or irreversible), small intestine bacterial overgrowth, and periodontal disease, for example. Everything has risks whether we acknowledge them or not.
No one is going to force you to make a decision. This is your choice and no one else's. Choosing to feed raw will put you in conflict with the majority of vets and pet owners, and you will undoubtedly be attacked for your choice by both ignorant (yet well-meaning) people and by educated people. Be informed, be educated, and be prepared. The fact that you came to Rawfed.com already speaks volumes about you: you have an open mind and are willing to read and think critically, something most vehement anti-raw people do not share with you. Personally, I cannot help but wonder why raw feeding provokes such a visceral reaction from people and why we have come to believe that dogs are supposed to eat pre-formed pellets and nothing else. 'Dogs do not need variety.' 'Do not feed your dog people food or it will become finicky and will not eat its dog food.' I wonder why!! Real food versus processed pellets sprayed with fat? No wonder dogs prefer 'people food'.

As you leave this page, I hope that you will give some serious thought to the material presented here. Remember that really learning something makes one uncomfortable because one realizes they are deficient in some way; no one enjoys coming to that realization, especially when they must present or project a particular, well-learned image to others. I encourage you to work through the discomfort and to not just dismiss everything you have read here simply because it does not fall in line with what you personally believe or practice. Be critical in your thought and analysis of EVERYTHING, not just the myth arguments. When you see pet food advertisements, question the reality they are presenting to you. What things are being left out and unspoken? Everything that is presented to you via the media has been altered in some way to represent a new realitythe reality certain parties want you, the consumer, to hearso what other realities are being neglected and ignored? Raw feeders are giving voice to some of these neglected realities. When vets encourage and sell commercial foods, ask them why. Why and how is a processed food better for our pets than fresh whole foods? You are very capable of providing your pet with the best quality of life that you can give it; it is up to you to decide to what lengths you will go to achieve that. Happy trails to you, and may you walk a blessed path.

Read more...​


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

AJ, there doesn't seem to be any mention of the author on the site you are quoting/linking to? Or links to sources of any articles and their authors etc? 

I feed raw,and fully advocate it, but I personaly believe it is something that needs much research ad shouldn't be undertaken lightly. 

I also feel the risk from bones is greater than some would have us believe, not on the way in, but the way out. That shouldn't be a problem providing the owner is vigilant and sensible, (for example, when you first start feeding rw, bones such as chicken are easier to digest that pork) but I do think it is unwise to 'play down' any risk or pretend it is virtually negligable.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2008)

jackson said:


> AJ, there doesn't seem to be any mention of the author on the site you are quoting/linking to? Or links to sources of any articles and their authors etc?


"Unless otherwise stated, all pages have been written by and are the property of Carissa Kuehn."


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> No, is it online?


it might be, it was in the waiting room at our vets lol but seriously weird stuff said about veggies and dogs, tails...


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## Mattie (Aug 9, 2008)

Choking can be reduced with kibble by soaking the food for a couple of hours before feeding your dog with it, this softens the food and it goes down the throat much easier. Dogs also think they have had more food than they have which I find very handy with my dogs.

There have been cases were owners just fed chicken wings of dogs becoming ill, this is because the dog was not getting what he needed and not caused by feeding raw. Dogs need more than meat, they need veg and fruit as well. I had a dog that would gently pick off the black blackberries and leave the rest. My dogs will also help themselves to any raw veg that they can get their mouths round.

Whichever way you decide to feed your dog, research all the posibilities first before making your decision what to feed.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2008)

How can insure that you're feeding a completely balanced diet on raw foods


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Mattie said:


> Choking can be reduced with kibble by soaking the food for a couple of hours before feeding your dog with it, this softens the food and it goes down the throat much easier. Dogs also think they have had more food than they have which I find very handy with my dogs.
> 
> There have been cases were owners just fed chicken wings of dogs becoming ill, this is because the dog was not getting what he needed and not caused by feeding raw. Dogs need more than meat, they need veg and fruit as well. I had a dog that would gently pick off the black blackberries and leave the rest. My dogs will also help themselves to any raw veg that they can get their mouths round.
> 
> Whichever way you decide to feed your dog, research all the posibilities first before making your decision what to feed.


Sorry I do have to disagree with your comment that dogs NEED fruit and veg - they dont - not if they are fed the correct raw diet.
Can I ask everyone or anyone who feeds a dry commercial food - do you add fruit and veg?
If you feed the correct raw diet it is balanced......so they get the correct amount of meats, organs etc mine do get 2 raw eggs a week and a little goats milk now and again but thats my choice to give that to them.
I also struggled to see how raw would be balanced like a commercial food before I changed from feeding kibble - but the more I read on the internet and speak to many people who have fed raw for years - I can see just how it all works and that in my opinion feeding kibble was damaging my dogs health.


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## Mattie (Aug 9, 2008)

Wild dogs have a mixed diet, not just meat, they also eat fruit and veg but the wild varietys not what we eat.

When I was growing up my uncle had a farm, he had a dog that wouldn't eat any food given to her, she went and caught a rabbit every day but she would also go into the orchard and get fruit, the vegatable patch and eat veg, and also go round when collecting the eggs for eggs.

Feeding just meat to a dog does not give them a balanced diet.

If your dog is overweight, you can also bulk out food with some veg, carrots go right through a dog but will help the dog think he is full, cabbage is another veg you can feed to aid him loosing weight.


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Mattie said:


> Wild dogs have a mixed diet, not just meat, they also eat fruit and veg but the wild varietys not what we eat.
> 
> When I was growing up my uncle had a farm, he had a dog that wouldn't eat any food given to her, she went and caught a rabbit every day but she would also go into the orchard and get fruit, the vegatable patch and eat veg, and also go round when collecting the eggs for eggs.
> 
> ...


Cabbage is not advised for dogs more prone to bloat as it causes gas.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2008)

Mattie said:


> Feeding just meat to a dog does not give them a balanced diet.


Raw feeders don't just feed meat.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Cabbage is not advised for dogs more prone to bloat as it causes gas.


That is correct - thankyou for pointing that out - I have a breed that suffers from bloat.


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## natcat02 (Aug 18, 2008)

Mattie said:


> If your dog is overweight, you can also bulk out food with some veg, carrots go right through a dog but will help the dog think he is full, cabbage is another veg you can feed to aid him loosing weight.


lol my dog can pick carrots out of anything, they're about the only thing she won't eat, even if my mum mashes them up completely into food she still finds them 

My dog was always a fussy eater so she tends to be fed on a mix of human food and pouches, she just wouldn't eat when she was a baby, we probably never tried hard enough but it was a long time ago and there was less of a thing about what to feed dogs.

I've never realliy agreed with feeding dried food though (i take it this is kibble?) All my friends dogs eat it because they were told it was best and everyone i know seems to think it's healthiest but to me it always seemed a bit like a human who ate all vitamins or all balanced frozen meals or something, getting everything they need technically, but it's no where near as good as fresh food.

My dogs always ate a lot of human food, which means lots of meat fruit and veg and she's was always the healthiest out of any of my friends dogs (till now when she's old), the only one who's not overweight, overly clingy or hyper. The only problem she had was bad skin and a bad heart which is very common to her breed and she was born with the heart thing.


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

I have spent a few weeks researching Raw Vs Dried and i am leaning towards the RAW side of things i must say. If for nothing else apart from when me and Dias' are walking through the forest, the place youd expect dogs to inhabit should they be indigenous to this land, i did see many, or even any Wag bushes, or Iams plants, and certainly no areas of Pedigree Chum trees. I did however come across quite a few, very fast moving samples of meat, and a few bushes of berries and such that Diasy surely liked eating. 

There is rarely any argument between humans as to weather processed and packaged foods hold an advantage over natural foods.

That being said and all the research i have done, i find myself feeling somewhat nieve about the two sides. Id love to start Daisy on a natural diet but i wouldnt know where to start. I was thinking of winging it and just going down the local butchers and buying what looked good and giving it to her. Thank god i read this thread first as i certainly would not have frozen any meat before giving it to her. That little find has scared me somewhat and i feel that kibble is a safer option. Yes i know that they can choke on anything not just raw meats but atleast i dont have to freeze the kibble or any other strange processes to stop certain disaster. However convenience, i dont class as an excuse to feed my dog utter crap so...

Can i have either a nice big list of what may make a truly balanced, health diet while totally avoiding crappy processed foods ?

If no one can be bothered to sit here for that long thinking and planning a comprehensive list. Please can you atleast supply a list of do's and don'ts ?

Im not being lazy and waiting for all you guys to do all the hard work, i am reading up on it aswell but so many people say so many different things its hard to know whats bull and whats not. I dont want a list to end all arguments, just a list that is likely to prevent me from killing my beloved dog while tying to improve her health. 

She seemed ok from birth but in the last week she has started to behave very lethargically, she now has dandruff and ALOT of hair is falling out compared to what used to so i fear that 14months of processed foods is begining to take its toll and measures must be taken. I go to the vets about it but all they do is recommend a different type of dried food which contains Magical-digestivum2 and happydoggy enzyme complex. Which just seems to be the same crap im trying to avoid.

Thank you for your time.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2008)

These links are from the same site the rest of it came from, it's the site that I found most helpful when researching, if you have a good search around that site it will answer most questiosn:

What To Feed

Switching To Raw

I will explain what I feed on a daily basis when I can be bothered!


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

The above 2 sites I also used along with this one:
Krisannrio's Raw feeding site |

The few of us that do raw feed all do it different for what suits our dogs better


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## sleeptalker (Apr 28, 2008)

my two are fed raw, i get it from landywoods, which i learnt about from this forum. the veternairy nurse at my vets said that she does not agree with raw feeding but as part of her diploma work she is looking at how raw is said to make dogs less hyper due to no additives being in the food and had to agree that there does seem to be some truth in this, and although mine are only 7 months old they have not had any health problems yet, like hot spots or dandruff or such, have never choked on any bones and they have chicken carcasses, and if you have room to store the food from a place like landywoods, it is said to work out cheaper than commercial food.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Just a few useless stats and stuff :

Commercial dog food has only been around for about 100 years, how long has the modern dog been around for? Pekes have been around since 2000BC.

An american had the idea for it on a voyage to Great Britain. When he came off his ship docked in England, his attention was caught by the sight of dogs scavenging for discarded ships' biscuits on the quayside. (One question is were these dogs owned and cared for or were they stray dogs?)

James Spratt saw the need for specially prepared food for animals and turned his efforts to the production of dog biscuits. As far as I know these were based on ships biscuits.

And so the prepared pet food industry was born. Later, American companies like Mars produced canned food for dogs, followed on a commercial scale by Chappel Brothers in the United Kingdom who began canning a meat and cereal dog food. 

Chappie dog food in 1935 was bought by Mars, 1954 - Pal launched in the UK, 1960 Chum is launched in the UK, 1964 - Chum dog food is renamed Pedigree Chum and begins its long standing relationship with the Crufts Dog Show in the UK. Silbury Soames is the first dog fed on Pedigree Chum to win the Best in Show award. 1980's saw Cesar dog food and Frolic. 2000+ Mars buys Royal Canin, Doane Pet Care (US dry food manufacturers) & Neutro Natural pet foods. (Mars timeline)

Extract from F.E.D.I.A.F. NUTRITIONAL GUIDELINES FOR COMPLETE AND COMPLEMENTARY PET FOOD FOR CATS AND DOGS (p53)
"There are proteins against which dogs and cats seem to react more often (Wills &#8216;94). Milk, beef, eggs, cereals and dairy products are mentioned most often whereas more controlled studies mentioned wheat, soy, chicken and maize as the most important allergens. However, it is not always clear whether these data are taken over from human literature or not. In addition, the data does not always enable us to see whether the high incidence is not simply the consequence of the fact that those proteins have been eaten more frequently by cats and dogs."


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Methical said:


> I have spent a few weeks researching Raw Vs Dried and i am leaning towards the RAW side of things i must say. If for nothing else apart from when me and Dias' are walking through the forest, the place youd expect dogs to inhabit should they be indigenous to this land, i did see many, or even any Wag bushes, or Iams plants, and certainly no areas of Pedigree Chum trees. I did however come across quite a few, very fast moving samples of meat, and a few bushes of berries and such that Diasy surely liked eating.
> 
> There is rarely any argument between humans as to weather processed and packaged foods hold an advantage over natural foods.
> 
> ...


Go get this book, don't be mislead by the title it's not just about raw meaty bones, it covers veg, fruit, and lots more, including don't s


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## Freya'n'Sassy (Aug 13, 2008)

In my mind any animal should be fed what it would natuarlly eat in the wild, people tend to use commercial food for convenience sake, after all you can grab a bag of dry dog food in your local supermarket when you do your shopping.

As a child I remember our dogs being fed on table scraps/left overs and bones, they were healthy, so this is how I feed my dogs now. My oldest Newfoundland is over 12 and when we bought her we were told if she got to 10 we had done well. She has out lived the rest of the litter, and it was a litter of 10 or 12... Can't remember now. 

I don't have a problem with giving my dogs a small amount of a good quality complete dog food... One you can't get in the local supermarket! Because I think then they are getting a good balanced diet, but their main food is meat, fish, eggs, bones and left overs. I would never feed tinned "meat" because of the fact there is actually only the tiniest amount of meat in that tin, and I know what animal derivatives are!


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Right, i have read all the above websites and many of the websites connected to those ones and.....my god......Its a wonder these dogs actually enjoy living with us when all we do is esentially feed them agar plates for bacteria and disease to breed and infect thier very internal workings. 

I have a friend that has just graduated to some respected vet school in london and she too said that after her module in nutrition...she felt ill knowing what have been going into her dogs she has had all her life.

So, I got to get daisy off these evil death biscuits. So i can waltz into a butchers, pick up some non-flavoured meat, freeze it for a day or two, thaw it and introduce it to her ? From what i have read starting on white meat and minced varieties is a good start untill they produce consistently dark, solid stools and then its time to get slowly inventive with egs, organ meat, solid uncooked non-weight bearing bones with meat on it ?

My question really is however, Daisy has become VERY good at holding her movements untill the right time. Obviously while she is getting used to her new diet her digestive system is going to be up in arms, but once she is used to it and happily eating RAW foods, can i expect the same kind of control over her movements or is it just fact that it moves through her more efficiently and is thus sat there waiting sooner?

What are the arguments for all of you that have researched RAW diets and have chosen to stay away from them ?

Moreover, what are the arguments for all you people who have assumed the man-made biscuits in pretty packaging are the best thing for your beloved pets ?

Im not critisising you, i am just interested in what the people on the other side of the fence are thinking.


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

Methical said:


> What are the arguments for all of you that have researched RAW diets and have chosen to stay away from them ?
> 
> Moreover, what are the arguments for all you people who have assumed the man-made biscuits in pretty packaging are the best thing for your beloved pets ?
> 
> Im not critisising you, i am just interested in what the people on the other side of the fence are thinking.


Good questions!

I have researched raw for almost a year now and was always quite scared that it was going to take an awful lot of preperation and as we have busy lives I was never going to have time to prepare everything needed. I was copping out by feeding my dogs commercial food because it just somehow seemed easier.

The more I read how much better and healthier raw fed animals are the more angry I got with myself for "abusing" my beloved dogs by filling them with total and utter crap, even though I always used premium expensive foods.

Well about 2/3 months ago I finally bit the bullet, slapped myself round the face, and gave myself a good talking to. I love my babies so much so therefore why was I being too lazy to give them a better, healthier diet?? How wrong was I, its all so much easier. Yes I spend a bit of time liquidizing fruit and veg but as I know my dogs love this and its good for them, I feel good about doing it. My boy has always been a "take it or leave it" eater, but since changing over he gets so excited at meal times and there is never a crumb left.

I am now feeding my 17 month old and even my 18 week old puppy on raw now. They both already look healthier. And I'm happy now because the demon on my shoulder that was berating me for feeding them rubbish has now dissapeared 

Sorry its a bit of a long post, hope you I somehow answered your questions


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2008)

Methical said:


> So, I got to get daisy off these evil death biscuits. So i can waltz into a butchers, pick up some non-flavoured meat, freeze it for a day or two, thaw it and introduce it to her ? From what i have read starting on white meat and minced varieties is a good start untill they produce consistently dark, solid stools and then its time to get slowly inventive with egs, organ meat, solid uncooked non-weight bearing bones with meat on it ?
> 
> My question really is however, Daisy has become VERY good at holding her movements untill the right time. Obviously while she is getting used to her new diet her digestive system is going to be up in arms, but once she is used to it and happily eating RAW foods, can i expect the same kind of control over her movements or is it just fact that it moves through her more efficiently and is thus sat there waiting sooner?


It had no effect on my three's control. Our 6 and 7 month old pups have better control than most of the adult dogs that are fed commercial food, so if anything I would say raw improves their control. 

When I made the switch for Milo it had no negative effect on his stools, they firmed up over a few days and he hasn't once had diahorrea since we changed to raw. With the pups I did a straight swap, the day they came here they went straight onto raw!  They both took to it instantly. Jayjay had no negative effects on his stools, just like Milo they firmed up over a few days and that was that. Trinny got diahorrea for a few days and then things started to sort themselves out but I think that had more to do with the crap food she was fed before she came to us than the raw.


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

SO where do you guys source the variety of meats ? I have read enough and seen enough to know that the meats on the shelves of Sainsburies, Tesco, Asda ect are far from quality.

The butchers seems the obvious choice but there's not a whole lot of bones and organs in the slabs of meat available there. So i need a whole animal. 

Im not squeemish so i have no issue watching Dais' devour a bloody chicken, liver and guts all over the place. Is that how simple it gets ? Take feathers off, slice to show whats inside and then allow her to munch ? No that cant be right because i must freeze the thing before i feed it to her. DO i need to freeze all the organs aswell ?

Youd think after all this reading i have done that i wouldnt need to ask all of these questions. But considering its not my dog and i plan on giving my girlfriend no end of grief and guilt trips untill she stops feeding her death-biscuits i cannot afford to get anything wrong as i am going to be leading this initiative and i must install faith in her by getting it right.

So far i plan to start on chicken and turkey, then introduce some red meats like beef and if all goes well then start on lamb.

Once we are solid on all that i shall likely introduce some organs and eggs finally gettin experimental with things such as deer and venison.

My questions really is how to prepare this. I read that half the benefit of RAW is that they have to work for the food. THey cannot just inhale it they have to pick and rip at it, working round the bone ect ect. This cannot be done if the food is already skinned, chopped and frozen though can it ?

Would it just be easier to buy a rifle and go trekking ?


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

One of the reasons I have always fed either totally raw or mainly raw (one of my cats thinks he's not been fed unless theres a bit of biscuit in it, he's an oriental cross and so he yowls until he's got a few biscuits ontop) is when I was younger our JR had a really bad allergy to a lot of tinned dog foods, so the only option was to feed raw food, our cats and dogs were fed it from the first day they entered the house. No slowly changing over the diet etc; we had at the most 5 dogs and 5 cats and you just cannot feed them all seperately, so it was an all or nothing approach. It didn't upset their digestion at all.

Fast forward to my cats and dogs - my oriental cross has allergies - he rips his fur out when given some commercial foods so 4 cats all have to have raw food, enter my dog, she wants the good stuff that the cats have so she gets fed raw food as well. 

Not only are my animals in good health (my almost 20 year old cat would testify but he's still sleeping his dinner off) but my purse is in better health, I have costed out several commercial foods including the value supermarket ranges for feeding my animals and feeding raw and can say that the raw food (including a small box of cat biscuits each month to keep my ginger cat happy and quiet) actually saves me a few pounds each month.

So my reasons for feeding raw are ecconomical, ease of feeding, and health of my animals.


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Hello could we all say exactly what the diet is? I'm critisicing nobody. Its just i know _nothing!_ 
I could easily be converted i think having read the arguements but would need to know a lot more about amounts, fruit and veg, what sorts, etc etc. I had until now thought raw meant beef mince, beef steak, raw bones and frankly a diet that is pure protein doesn't thrill me but you have all proved there is a lot more to it! Also having just cleared up a pile of diarrhoea(smelly!) its time to act!! 
I thought raw meat contained a higher amount of worms - which is why some humans like it cooked more. please excuse my ignorance but i really don't know anything about this diet!!


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Krisannrio's Raw feeding site |
Practical Answers to Practical Questions About Raw

I think the general principal is you feed 2-3% of the desired body weight of the animal daily.

From whati have learnt, if ur a lil nervous about switching. Dont ween, ie half biscuits half raw, just do it but start on white meats. Then move onto reds and organs. Kidneys feed in SMALL portions untill your animals system can hack it.

Although i have done alot of research on the matter Diasy (my dog) has still to eat her first RAW meal so i am informed but by no means experienced so take my advice how you will.


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

Methical said:


> SO where do you guys source the variety of meats ? I have read enough and seen enough to know that the meats on the shelves of Sainsburies, Tesco, Asda ect are far from quality.


We really struggle for butchers where I live so we tend to go for the slightly easier option of buying ready made stuff from here Natural Frozen Pet Food Products - Prize Choice - The Natural Food for Healthy Animals (we order offline because it works out cheaper, but pet shops also stock this too) Obviously get fruit and veg etc from supermarkets etc


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## Rayseffo (Aug 23, 2008)

Is it a good thing to feed a dog raw meat from a tescos??? like raw mince?
I hear it can poison them !?


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Something terrible has happened  The large box of Wag that lives in my Kitchen SOMEHOW was sabotaged in the night rendering all the 'food' in it useless. Someone left the lid off underneath a dripping pipe and....oh....the tragedy.

So, Daisy is starting her RAW diet tonight...well id like it that way but i still have a few last reservations before i take the plunge.

1. After much protest, Daisy had a bath on the weekend. Strange as she loves water so much but clearly not from a hissing shower head. Point being is that on the next walk she decided to teach us once and for all the consequences of bathing her and jumped into a stream of very nasty looking smelly, brown / yellow / green water. Then decided to bolt up and down it flicking water all over her. Surprise surprise, she has an eye infection. Is the sudden and drastic change in diet likely to stunt her ability to fight the infection. The vets gave her eye drops but i dont know if they are an anti-biotic or not. If they are then is it really wise to be feeding her raw meat when she has little --> no immune system ?

2. Just to be on the safe side, im going to freeze all the meat i give her for atleast 24 hrs. Its advised you do such things with rabbits, rats, mice ect to kill of parasites but i am going to do it with all...cos i am a grade-A worrier. I also read that an important aspect of the RAW diet is the bone content. So when i give her a meaty bone, do i allow her to actually ingest the bone aswell and just let her learn how to eat bones without choking, or do i remove the bone from her once shes had a good chew ?

3. Are there any tell tail sings that something has gone wrong with her during the RAW meaty bones switch-over ? Like certain stool types mean shes being poisoned? I have noticed she has alot of dry skin recently and i put this down to the shocking diet of death-biscuits she has been on. How long untill i should be seeing improvements roughly? Days, weeks, months ?

4. What does the ideal stool from a well-fed RAW meaty bones dog look like ?

Finally. I would really appreciate just a small amount of information about what you RAW feeders first began to feed your dogs right at the begining and in what form. I feel i am well educated enough in the ways of RAW feeding now to make it well on my own. I just lack the confidence to start with something.



> Is it a good thing to feed a dog raw meat from a tescos??? like raw mince?
> I hear it can poison them !?


As to the specific quality of Tesco's meat....i dont know. From what i have read, freezing the meat for 24 is likely to kill off any nasties. Be sure to inspect the package to ensure no additives or colouring has been added to the meat. I have read from several sources that it is the economy quality meat that you really want to be aiming for as the cheaper minced stuff has bone minced into it also which is an important part of the RAW diet. THe more expencive 'quality' stuff i imagine has had alot of that taken out for a more 'pure' and thus expensive product.

To be honest, watch this and once you can get past the cheesy american sales person presentation and actually listen to his words and visit his research sources i think you will agree, low quality meat from Tesco is the least of your worries from a biscuit-fed dogs perspective.

----------------------

P.S - How do you 'quote' people so that the quote box specifically states who said it rather than just saying that it is a quote ?


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Methical said:


> Krisannrio's Raw feeding site |
> Practical Answers to Practical Questions About Raw
> 
> I think the general principal is you feed 2-3% of the desired body weight of the animal daily.
> ...


Many Thanks for sending this to me. I am currently working my way through it all. Can i just ask :
Why the whole egg? Are the shells nutritious?
Raw chicken bones - not cooked?
Tripe - how about cooked tripe? I know you meant raw in the blurb.
Could i mix the complete with the chicken mince?
Do you make the chicken mince or can you buy it?
Will most butchers have a stock of waste meats they sell off dor peanuts and is it anygood? Anything to avoid?
Would a chicken quarter be too much for a JRT? 
What hooves are you referring to that you stuff with mince and where do they come from?

Sorry for all the questions but I need to know the nitty-gritty b4 embarking!!


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Hi I live in Taunton and had a hard time finding a butcher that sold anything other than dog mince. But there is a butcher in Station Road that will sell the mince mix. he can get me anything i want and it turns out he can get me a whole fresh tripe but i have to pick it up from the abbertoire myself on a tues as that is slaughter day plus hooves too!!!!!

So i am shortly off to go get some stuff. But i must freeze it all first? If any of you want the details of the chap just pm me!


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

One more question - what happens when they go into kennels? Will it upset their tums to go back to the packet stuff?


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

> Many Thanks for sending this to me. I am currently working my way through it all. Can i just ask :


Yes 



> Why the whole egg? Are the shells nutritious?


Um, i dont really know but we had chickens back in our old house and before Daisy learnt the beloved "leave" command, she certainly thought 100% of the egg was good news. I cant imagine dogs eating eggs in the wild, but if they were to, i doubt they'd peel the shell off so yea, i imagine it is good for em. I have read about removing the whites from some eggs if you feed on a regular basis.



> Raw chicken bones - not cooked?


If your meaning raw chicken, on the bone then no, not cooked. Id personally choose to freeze it cos im paranoid but aparently dogs are quite a bit more immune to salmonela than we are, passes right through em so i have read. However, cooking bones makes them brittle, brittle will mean a greater chance of them (fragments/splinters) hassling your dog while he's chewing on it and also, wont give him as much of a jaw workout. I too am nervous about Daisy's first raw chicken meal. Im going to start off small and work my way up when i see that she does keel over and die !



> Tripe - how about cooked tripe? I know you meant raw in the blurb.


Im still having issues finding out what the hell tripe is ! Not done alot of looking into this as i am focusing more on getting the meat content both balanced and non-leathel before i get fancy with tripe and organs. As a general rule however, cooking stuff will reduce the amount of nutrients held by the product. Kind of counter productive. My rule is the closer i can get it to how it occurs in the wild, without loosing sleep, the better.



> Could i mix the complete with the chicken mince?


Complete as in dog food ? Well yea you could but that kinda defeats the object of a totally health RAW meaty diet doesnt it ?



> Do you make the chicken mince or can you buy it?


I havent done anything yet but i intend to make my own. For several reasons.

1. I can control and observe the exact meat : bone ratio of each serving

2. Daisy is a fussy eater when it comes to new things and needs some encouragement to try new things. This food diary site details how someone weened a semi-fussy dog from dog food onto RAW stuff and i am going to assume that Daisy will need some encouragment also. He achieved this my mincing the foods first and then working his way back up to solid form. So i am going to have to get a meat grinder anyway for beef, lamb, rabbits ect ect so i may aswell put the chicken in there aswell if i need to.

3. Thinking about it, i dont think i have ever seen chicken mince. Diced chunks yea, mince.....dont think so.



> Will most butchers have a stock of waste meats they sell off for peanuts and is it anygood? Anything to avoid?


Waste meats ? um, yea probably. Ill probably not aim for the waste meats. They might not stock it as such being waste meats they might just chuck it. Letting a local butcher know your interested in it might give him a reason to save it. I have not read anything about waste meats and so dont know about it in a nutritional context.

I not long visited my local butcher and was surprised at how cheap the meat was anyway. Considering you have a jack russel. 2-3% of his desired body weight a day is not going to be that much atall and thus wont cost as much. Im poor and my dog is 25Kg now and although its more expensive than dog food, its still alot cheaper than i budgetted for.



> Anything to avoid?


Not so much avoid but ration, liver and kidney. They are so nutrient rich that they give way to runny stools ect. I wouldnt like to take my chances with rats....just cos they are nasty and dirty. I read something about Salmon, or Salmonoids. It wasnt that you couldnt feed dogs salmon, you had to do something first, freeze it, remove something, take it out for a movie first..i dont remember exactly.

If your gonna fish for food. Make sure there are no hooks the fish has swalloed.



> Would a chicken quarter be too much for a JRT?


Depends how big the chicken is. All i have been told is aim for 2-3% of the desired body weight in food a day. If your dog is still hungry after that.....your gonna need some more, if he is leaving bits behind, its a bit too much maybe. Or maybe he just isnt used to the effort needed to eat it all....thats where your mince will be useful...easier to eat.



> What hooves are you referring to that you stuff with mince and where do they come from?


I personally have not reffered to any hooves as i have not yet tried any RAW feeding stuff myself, i have merely pointed you at research i have read. I think most hooves are cow hooves or horse hooves. A local pet shop will sell them id imagine. Or again, a butcher. For a JRT maybe even pig and sheep hooves will be ok. I have a lab so she might eat the whole thing which will no doubt make her choke but with your guys smaller mouth, might work out ok.



> Sorry for all the questions but I need to know the nitty-gritty b4 embarking!!


No problem, i too am nervous about it really but i think only because we are straying from what society is telling us to think. Sad time we live in where independant thinking feels wrong.

I spend no end of time asking question after question on this forum, its nice to finally be able to answer some questions for a change.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Why the whole egg? Are the shells nutritious?
Egg shells contain some calcium, my dog doesn't like the shells and will leave them, but she does like the eggs. I just give her the ones I've bought for us as in the UK the hens are tested for salmonella so our eggs are pretty safe.

Raw chicken bones - not cooked?
All bones being fed to the dog should be raw. When bones are cooked they can take on a honeycombed like structure inside, most bird bones have large air cavities or are made of a sponge like structure, I know chickens don't fly well but thats retained and thats how they can splinter as opposed to being ground down by the dog.

Tripe - how about cooked tripe? I know you meant raw in the blurb.
Tripe smells when it's raw, well the 'green' tripe does and thats what you'd be getting from the slaughterhouse. If you cooked the tripe it'd smell even more and so would the house.

Could i mix the complete with the chicken mince?
If you were weaning the dog over from one food to another then yes you'd mix the new food into the old food like normal. I've never weaned a dog or cat onto raw, they've just been changed over. They've not suffered any problems with their digestive system when I've done this but some dogs might.

Do you make the chicken mince or can you buy it?
If your butcher has said he'll mince stuff for you then he'll probably mince the chicken for you, or you could buy yourself a hand mincer and do it yourself but it would take a long time and you'd have a sore arm from turning the handle.

Will most butchers have a stock of waste meats they sell off dor peanuts and is it anygood? Anything to avoid?
Most butchers will have a scraps box, there will be the paddywack, gristle, any bone dusted edges (if they've had to saw through a bone the dust sticks to the meat), meat from just around the neck area (from beef) there will also be quite a lot of pure fat in their scraps box as well. Things to avoid - obviously meat that is turning (just starting to go off), pork apparently should be avoided (this is because when worming procedured weren't as good as they are now tape worms eggs could be found in pork legs afaik), small vertabrae bones as a dog could choke on these.

Would a chicken quarter be too much for a JRT? 
That would depend on how big the quarter was and how much the dog weighs.

If I'm wrong on anything I'm sure someone will point it out, but thats just off the top of my head without looking through anything.


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

No i think we are moving into an age where it is absolutely acceptable to question everything. We have some knowledge and we want to improve our lives for the best. 

The dog mince the butcher was talking about has everything in it. kidney liver too so perhaps this is a better way to feed tese things as its a more diluted variety.

My concern too is which type of beef mince? I saw James Martin(chef) cooking it on tv and he demonstrated how much extra fat is in the value mince copmpared to the middle of the road and then the leanest and there were big differences between the three. i don't know how much fat in a diet is a good thing or should we attempt to do the leanest meat as much as possible?


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

pork apparently should be avoided (this is because when worming procedured weren't as good as they are now tape worms eggs could be found in pork legs afaik)

Would it be sensible to worm more often on this diet? I have thought this b4 now.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Dogs are different to us though, whats healthy for a dog when cooked wouldn't be good for us. I'm sure if I cooked my animals food there'd be fat coming out of it. One of my parents cats is fed on the raw value mince as he has teeth problems (caused by the vet taking some of them out after he'd been kicked in the face, but leaving the corresponding teeth in so his bite is totally out) and he's very healthy. Even humans need fat in their diet otherwise things start to go wrong. If you are worried about the content of the fat go for a middle of the road one. Most butchers won't know exactly how much fat is in their mince but it's generally lower than the value mince.

Butchers have been making pet mince for years, it's generally the things that have been out and haven't sold that day, the facings of some of the steak meat as when exposed to air the meat changes colour and can dry slightly at the edges. Theres a local farm shop near me who makes pet mince, their farm dogs and cats are fed on it and they look really healthy, even when the collie has been rolling in the mud  I figure if the farm dog does well on it my dog will do to. Their pet mince is made up of the things that didn't sell during the day, it's got some of everything in it, somedays more chicken, somedays more beef etc; but at £1.49 for 1.5kg it's not expensive.


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Thats about the same price as ours - 80p/kg. I am going to try it. Heseemed to know a lot more about it. Two butchers turned their noses up - but they akso told me tripe was hard to get hold of - that translates to we don't want the smell in our shop i think. I live in the country so i thought 'this is rediculous' and its solved now. I think the chap said a whole tripe for £2. is that cheap? He told me dogs do really well on it!

Oh i tried tripe in a white sauce and i liked it!!!!! (cooked of course!) LOL'S I think Jamie Oliver cooked it at a fair once.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Worm as normal, I'm a butcher and tbh I've only ever seen tape worms in a pork once and the meat was condemed at the slaughter house because of this(this was when I was training so over 20 years ago). Worming methods have got better over the years as farmers want healthier livestock. Most butchers wouldn't be mincing whole pork legs anyways and would spot something like that - they end up in a hard round lump in the leg area - and would throw it away (not putting it in the scraps box)

You wouldn't need to worm the dog anymore than you do now, when I was growing up dogs were only wormed every 6 months, unless they were puppies or had a bad case of worms. Most worms in dogs come from fleas as the flea generally carries the worm egg, in the case of tape worms, worms live in the intestines and you won't be feeding your dog the intestines anyway so the possibility of them getting any worms from eating raw food is virtually zero.

The tripe that humans eat is bleached - thats why it's white and doesn't smell. The tripe from the slaughterhouse is 'green' or unbleached, it will have a very small amount of part digested grass in it (one reason why it's called green) and thats okay for the dog to have as it's the residue that stuck if you like to the walls of the stomachs (cows have 4 stomachs, humans eat 3 of them in the various different tripes), it'll be a greenish colour as well as the grass dyes it.


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks for your comments today. They are really helpful!


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Hi everyone - i've started the raw diet! 

We had (dogs!):
1 x raw egg (didn't think much of shell) each
1 chicken wing each
licked out container from mum's ox liver but no solid pieces yet
Currently chewing on a raw bone now and am very very happy.

Mum says is this too quick and will it upset our tums to start this quick?

We have a green whole tripe coming tuesday which she has to portion up and freeze plus hooves. Am I allowed lambs mince?

From Georgey and Milly Mouse x x x x


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2008)

Methical said:


> So when i give her a meaty bone, do i allow her to actually ingest the bone aswell and just let her learn how to eat bones without choking, or do i remove the bone from her once shes had a good chew ?


Hmmm...... we are talking about a Lab here so I would be careful. Dogs tend to know which bones to eat and which ones just to get the meat off and the marrow out but Labs being Labs may like to eat the whole lot whether it's a good idea or not.



Methical said:


> How long untill i should be seeing improvements roughly? Days, weeks, months ?


I started to see improvements in their stools the next day. Breath was fresher within a few days and they stopped having stinky rear ends after about a week. After a few weeks Milo's teeth were noticably whiter and his coat looked healthier.



Methical said:


> What does the ideal stool from a well-fed RAW meaty bones dog look like ?


Small and solid, colour can vary depending on what's been fed. If they've eaten a lot of chicken my lots tend to be near white, if they've eaten red meats it's darker. They should start to crumble (sp?) within a few days if left. Sometimes Milo's crumble as they hit the floor but not noticed this with the pups.



Methical said:


> I would really appreciate just a small amount of information about what you RAW feeders first began to feed your dogs right at the begining and in what form. I feel i am well educated enough in the ways of RAW feeding now to make it well on my own. I just lack the confidence to start with something.


From memory: I started feeding just beef mince and chicken wings then introduced kidneys and hearts towards the end of the first week and then one new thing each week after that.



coolkat said:


> Raw chicken bones - not cooked?


Never ever feed cooked bones. They can splinter and cause internal perforations.



coolkat said:


> Tripe - how about cooked tripe?


Cooking food defeats the whole object of raw. Cooked foods are not natural, the nutritional content and molecular strutcture of the food is alterted making it less digestable.



coolkat said:


> Do you make the chicken mince or can you buy it?


Why do you want to feed chicken mince. All meats are far more beneficial whole. Chicken mince isn't widely available but wings, thighs, legs are and are cheap give the dog a better mouth and jaw workout during feeding time.



coolkat said:


> One more question - what happens when they go into kennels? Will it upset their tums to go back to the packet stuff?


Simple answer; don't put them in kennels, send them to me and I'll feed them raw! 



coolkat said:


> My concern too is which type of beef mince? I saw James Martin(chef) cooking it on tv and he demonstrated how much extra fat is in the value mince copmpared to the middle of the road and then the leanest and there were big differences between the three. i don't know how much fat in a diet is a good thing or should we attempt to do the leanest meat as much as possible?


I use butchers beef mince, no idea about the fat content but don't forget that dogs do need fat in there diet so don't be too concerned about it.



coolkat said:


> Mum says is this too quick and will it upset our tums to start this quick?


How many new foods the dog will tolerate depends on the dog, she should be okay but if not just stick to one fairly balanced food (such as chicken wings) for a week or so and then slowly introduce more ingredients.


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Nice reply Aj, thank you.

Went down to Co-Op last night and got some chicken and some beef. Only because the butchers was well and truly shut by the time i cycled back home. I HOPE that the butchers is a cheaper alternative as Daisy needs about 675g of food a day according to the 2-3% of 27kg. Well for £5.45 i got 600g of chicken legs and 300g of Beef bits. Thats about £28.61 a week on feeding her alone !!! .... AT LEAST ! 

Meaning instead of spending £9 - £15 a month on crappy dog biscuits im spending £114.44 on meat....i know that dog biscuits are SO bad for her but really, £114 on dog food ?!? I thought it was supposed to be cheaper.

Please tell me this is just cos i am buying from the co-op ? Please tell me i am being a rediculous noob and have overlooked something trivial that saves me about £99 a month !

Cant afford that atall !

*worry*


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

I find feeding mine raw expensive, because companies like Landywoods and Prize Choice (who I should get a discount with as I am on their breeders list) won't deliver to my home in Northern Ireland. Therefore, whatever I feed them has to come from either the butcher or supermarket. 

I can get 'pet mince' from one localish butcher for 45p a lb, but don't feed it too often as I never know exactly what is in it. 

Try and buy cheaper cuts of meat, like breast of lamb, hearts, pigs trotters, oxtail etc. Although some cuts aren't as cheap as they used to be, as apparently the Eastern Europeans buy them, which has caused the price to go up. 

Tesco do frozen mince (although check it is meat not soya) quite cheaply and also frozen white fish. I buy value beef mince and value chicken wings for mine. (naughty me, it's not happy chicken!) One pack of chicken wings at less than £1.50 does all three of mine for half a days food. Try tinned pilchards in tomato sauce, I find the Glenryk (sp?) ones the cheapest. Also tinned pink salmon isn't too expensive. 

Pets At Home do quite a good selection of frozen Natures Menu/Prize choice foods. Rabbit/chicken etc, all minced though, is about 70p for 400g, Tripe is abour £2.74 for 2KG I think. 

Search for Landywoods if you have a freezer, much cheaper!


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

We too use prizechoice. Much cheaper ordered directly off the net rather than buying from bet shop.

For other stuff we just buy whats on offer at the local supermarket. I can pick up 2 large fresh fish for 20p and you can get meat for pence too when they are coming to the end of the day and selling things off


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Cannot find any Ladywoods website atall on the web. Maybe im just being stupid but does anyone have a URL or phone number ? I got a phone last week and am keen to use it 

Yes there are lots of things going for cheap at the end of the day but these items are rarely large meaty bones, usually just 6 packs of fillets or drumsticks. Have u found different ? 

I notice that sainsburys offer a turkey leg at 99p - Thats a weight bearing bone though is it not ? Which is a no no.

Hmm, come to think of that, so are drumsticks. So if your not allowed to feed legs of stuff, only backs and necks that are left right ? And necks apparently are dodgy for larger breeds, especially Labs due to choking hazrd....this is getting complicated.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Landywood Pet Foods : Home

There you go


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## sleeptalker (Apr 28, 2008)

i spend just over 40 quid a month at landywoods, as i have to give a minimum order of that a month, this lasted us for the four weeks, my two have just gone down to 2 meals a day, they are over 30kg in weight, so i reckon every couple of months i will only need to order every 6 weeks. it won't cost you as much as it does at the butchers, and they sell loads, tripe, chicken carcasses, meaty bones etc. just make sure you have the freezers, lol


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2008)

Methical said:


> Meaning instead of spending £9 - £15 a month on crappy dog biscuits im spending £114.44 on meat....i know that dog biscuits are SO bad for her but really, £114 on dog food ?!? I thought it was supposed to be cheaper.


I certainly don't spend that much. The Tesco Value mince Jackson mentioned is beef and pork, no soya or any other rubbish but beware of other supermarket value ranges as some are not just meat.



Methical said:


> I notice that sainsburys offer a turkey leg at 99p - Thats a weight bearing bone though is it not ? Which is a no no.


My lot have all sorts of bones from all sorts of animals, I've never had a problem with weight bearing bones, they just take the meat off and don't even attempt to break the bones.

Turkey drumsticks are perfectly okay, they aren't big and strong like larger animals weight bearing bones, in fact my lot get through them in no time, they get a turkey drumstick each once a week and it's one of their favourites.

Have a ring round your butchers and ask if they can give you any bones for free or next to nothing. At the end of the day you are doing them a favour as they have to pay to dispose of them so should be willing to do you either a good price or just give them you which takes a decent proportion of the cost away.

I find one meal in the morning of mince (plus offal and extras) and one meal of bones from the butchers or chicken carcasses in the afternoon gives a good balance.


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Hi well we are now over 24 hours in - the results are showing already - we have poo that is the right consistency, dark brown and more normal looking. We have dogs that are clearly loving the food and looking excited, not just hungry. Am feeding chicken wings, raw eggs and in evening they have pet mince with vegetables. The raw bones caused huge growling rows so we are reconsidering those. Will attempt white fish tomorw but they really do seem brighter!! Are rawhide bootees acceptable?????


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2008)

coolkat said:


> Hi well we are now over 24 hours in - the results are showing already - we have poo that is the right consistency, dark brown and more normal looking. We have dogs that are clearly loving the food and looking excited, not just hungry. Am feeding chicken wings, raw eggs and in evening they have pet mince with vegetables. The raw bones caused huge growling rows so we are reconsidering those. Will attempt white fish tomorw but they really do seem brighter!! Are rawhide bootees acceptable?????


Why feed rawhide when you can feed raw bones? 

How many dogs have you got? What breeds? Could you feed the bones seperate? How serious is the growling?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Why feed rawhide when you can feed raw bones?
> 
> How many dogs have you got? What breeds? Could you feed the bones seperate? How serious is the growling?


I have giv my staffie her bones in the kitchen or she would rip my cavs up


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> I have giv my staffie her bones in the kitchen or she would rip my cavs up


I can have my three and Meg all out on the garden together with bones and there's never a problem. Chuck a few chunks of cucumber out and all hell breaks loose!


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

hi aj thats very intresting and iused to feed my dog raw but burns and nater diet and orijen compinies that steam cook at low temps and that are holistic have conviced me not to feed raw and that steam cooked is probly better than raw kills germs and is only cooked for about 4 or 5 mins so its half raw anyway like rare human steak i c it ( i no nater diet cook for only 5 mins and orijen) not sure on burns but i am sure they dont cook for that long. so my qustion is whats wrong with hoilistic foods


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Cooking changes protein molecules in food (their shape for one, burgers that blow up with air in the middle when cooked is a good example) light cooking won't totally destroy them but will alter the proteins. Cooking also removes some essential vitamins, natural acids, and changes the actual composition of the meat. If you do cook all your dogs food then you are probably going to have to add the vits and mins lost with the cooking process in the way of supplements.

Dogs guts are shorter and their stomach acid is stronger than ours is, they're designed to eat raw food in the form of carcasses (either killed by themselves or scavenged from), their digestive system isn't any different from that of a wolf or a wild dog in africa or a dingo so it's set up to easily digest raw meat, they also process the 'germs' better than we do. Salmonella, e-coli, can also be found on kitchen sinks, fridges, the floor, back garden etc; most people forget this and only think that it is on raw meats.

Mars petcare this year had to recall in the USA Pedigree Complete Nutrition Small Crunchy Bites dog food on August 8th 2008 (Pet Food Recall issued by Pedigree: Salmonella a Risk with Complete Nutrition Small Crunchy Bites) there was also a recall of several different pet foods last year as one of the grain products was the cause of the problem.

Of course commercial dog food manufacturers will 'try' to convince people that their food is the best thing to give to your dog, they are a business they want to make a profit. Adverts will show happy healthy dogs (these dogs may or may not be fed on the food advertised), one example - Burns have a page dedicated as to why you shouldn't feed a dog raw food (I'll put a link in once I've found it again) but are now promoting a mixer to feed your dog with a raw diet, if the company can make you think that you 'need' this product then you are more likly to buy it so this new mixer is designed to make people who feed raw think - I 'need' to add this to my dogs diet otherwise it's missing out on something - think about the adverts and then about how you buy the product. There are no adverts on TV for raw feeding, canned food has only been around for (in the UK) the 1930's (I'll check for the exact date)or so and that was chappie (mars bought them out) so what were dogs fed before commercial food was available?


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Oh LANDYwoods, not LADYwoods...lol no wonder i couldnt find anything !!

Is a shame about the price as i have no space for a freezer in my home and i doubt i can afford any pro-longed amount of feeding raw....its just going to have to be a treat everynow and again 

Just been on the LANDYwoods website......thats a hell of a lot cheaper than i expected. For a big bone of Lamb at my local butchers is £9.99. A whole chicken from these guys is only £3.50 !!! Thats still about £20 a week minimum. Pain in the ass this money buissness. The whole idea about getting a dog in the first place was to give me something to do, something to focus on that doesnt cost money !! Its only the damn walking thats free. GF's gonna have a field day with the "i told you so's" when i run outta money for Daisy's food withing a few weeks....maybe we can teach Daisy to hunt...i think next door own Rabbits *evil laugh*

ALSO from the Landywoods website...

*CEREALS: (CHO = Carbohydrate = Long Term Energy)
*Wholebake Original; Others: Rice; Barley; Oats; Some rye; small anmnts of wheatgerm, buckwheat, cous-mus. Always use the wholegrain (brown/wholegrain) rather than white, polished products. They are far more nubitious.

I thought the entire idea of RAW feeding was to rid the dogs system of these dreadded cerials ?


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Why feed rawhide when you can feed raw bones?
> 
> How many dogs have you got? What breeds? Could you feed the bones seperate? How serious is the growling?


Hello - I have two JRT's. I will have to do bones seperately but they seem anxious after to try and find them because they are taking hours and hours to eat them so i put them away. There seems to be tension between them. I gave them marrow bones. I don't know what animal they came from as the butcher went and got it from the back. Perhaps they will get quicker as they get used to chewing them? 
They are enjoying pet mince and wings. Thought we might try lamb and white fish soon. The frozen value bag of fish.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

coolkat said:


> Hello - I have two JRT's. I will have to do bones seperately but they seem anxious after to try and find them because they are taking hours and hours to eat them so i put them away. There seems to be tension between them. I gave them marrow bones. I don't know what animal they came from as the butcher went and got it from the back. Perhaps they will get quicker as they get used to chewing them?
> They are enjoying pet mince and wings. Thought we might try lamb and white fish soon. The frozen value bag of fish.


Lamb is probably my lots favourite meat, only Jayjay will eat white fish. 

My lot spend hours munching on bones in the garden some days, it depends on what bones they have, chicken carcasses are gone in minutes, beef bones occupy them for hours, lamb bones come somewhere in the middle. 

Are they actually being aggresive towards each other or just guarding? I'd be tempted to say leave them to it and let them sort it out but only you can tell whether that's going to be a good idea or not.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Methical said:


> I thought the entire idea of RAW feeding was to rid the dogs system of these dreadded cerials ?


So did I but some people feed these whole grain mixers alongside raw meat. Not sure what they think they are benefitting from feeding them but it's better than just feeding death biscuits I suppose!


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Lamb is probably my lots favourite meat, only Jayjay will eat white fish.
> 
> My lot spend hours munching on bones in the garden some days, it depends on what bones they have, chicken carcasses are gone in minutes, beef bones occupy them for hours, lamb bones come somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Are they actually being aggresive towards each other or just guarding? I'd be tempted to say leave them to it and let them sort it out but only you can tell whether that's going to be a good idea or not.


Yes we had that idea but they are standing like bulls on their back legs and showing all their teeth and it goes on and on. My kids have learnt to leap out the way fast! George is a very polite gentle dog but he is trying to do the man of the house act and Milly is doing what woman do best - be bossy. I would have thought they would have sorted it out, today they have had no bones and peace has reigned. I will try again if you think i should.


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Just fed Daisy her first raw meal. Sadly was nothing epic, just a few drumsticks. I let her have the first one and she was quite timid about the whole thing. But i think thats just cos we been training her hard not to eat stuff she see's on the floor. After i started playing about with it and poking it infront of her hyperactive nose, she soon decided it was worth a chew. She grabbed it off me and made a B-Line for my room (furthest away from kitchen). I called her back and made her sit (not having her getting all possesive over it). But then once she really got into it she just bit down hard in the middle and started to swallow the whole thing as it was bent in half 

"NO Daisy"

From then on i cut the meat off of the bone and fed it to her myself.

So question, as she is a lab, and by the sounds a truly tipical one. Are chicken drumsticks going to be totally off the menu ? I felt the edges of those bones once she snapped them and they were *sharp.

*We gave her a big joint of beef a while ago and she was good with that, she took most of the night grinding away at it. There were one or two times where she bit off a huge bit and started to try and get it all in her mouth but i grabbed it before it had a chance to disappear but with these chicken drum-sticks, she was wasting no time getting it down her.

Secondly, i know dogs are much better at dealing with salmonella. But now that she has it all over her face, is hand feeding her treats going to cover my hands in it, and then my face and my girlfriends and my bed and my food ect ect ect ? She does still do alot of licking.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Methical said:


> So question, as she is a lab, and by the sounds a truly tipical one. Are chicken drumsticks going to be totally off the menu ? I felt the edges of those bones once she snapped them and they were *sharp*.


Try her with wings! She will take time to get used to what needs to be done before swallowing. Meg was the same, she tried to swallow things before they were chewed up enough and choked them back up, trial and error, she got the jist soon enough.



Methical said:


> Secondly, i know dogs are much better at dealing with salmonella. But now that she has it all over her face, is hand feeding her treats going to cover my hands in it, and then my face and my girlfriends and my bed and my food ect ect ect ? She does still do alot of licking.


Can she not catch?  All I can say is I've got four dogs and two cats being fed raw and not had any outbreaks of any illness. Salmonella is already everywhere anyway!  Do a google search on Salmonella and you will see it's very overhyped, if I remember correctly there are thousands of strains of Salmonella, most are harmless and the ones that can be fatal represent something like 0.2% of all Salmonella in the UK.


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

hi i no that dog food companies want me to buy them but i dont fool for all of them only about 3 which are orijen burns and nater diet which i like cas it has lambs tripe in it. only good qulity holistic i have one dog 10 yr old chi jack cross and she was one pedigree which battersa told me to feed her six years ago then i found out pedigree was rubbish and did raw now i feed mainly burns tinned lamb rice and veg with chicken fish rice veg biscuits burns ones and nature diet and orijen somtims as i like to change her food eg burns dont have tripe nater diet do nater diet dont have eggs orijen dose so we rotate it so gets goodness from all of them.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Toni said:


> hi i no that dog food companies want me to buy them but i dont fool for all of them only about 3 which are orijen burns and nater diet which i like cas it has lambs tripe in it. only good qulity holistic i have one dog 10 yr old chi jack cross and she was one pedigree which battersa told me to feed her six years ago then i found out pedigree was rubbish and did raw now i feed mainly burns tinned lamb rice and veg with chicken fish rice veg biscuits burns ones and nature diet and orijen somtims as i like to change her food eg burns dont have tripe nater diet do nater diet dont have eggs orijen dose so we rotate it so gets goodness from all of them.


Out of curiosity why did you stop feeding raw?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

p.s she has done much better on burns nater diet and orijen than when she was on pedigree still a few iriversabal things from the dam pedigree where she was on it so many years like missing teeth i reli regret feeding it now. but she has much more intrest in food now and will try many new thing like she loves veg before she hated it and is no longer so fussy ( she actuly likes food a bit too much now and dribbled once when she saw me making her burns tin) i swear she never dribbled for pedigree!


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i dont reli no why i stopped feeding raw i supose it was a bit harder and burns and that looked just as good with less effort plus she did not do well with raw chicken wings her tummy was making the most stangest noises for hours the day i gave her raw chicken wing


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

also i was feeding the ones from pets at home prize choice and natures menue which they dont make very easy for small dogs we had to like hammer and chizzle them up into small bits lol i no they do mice but not in as many flavours/ or differnt meat as the whole sqaure of meat only tripe and lamb i think in pets at home


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Toni said:


> also i was feeding the ones from pets at home prize choice and natures menue which they dont make very easy for small dogs we had to like hammer and chizzle them up into small bits lol i no they do mice but not in as many flavours/ or differnt meat as the whole sqaure of meat only tripe and lamb i think in pets at home


You're not supposed to feed them frozen!!!


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i read the burns page on why not to feed raw too and that kinda conviced me to


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Toni said:


> i read the burns page on why not to feed raw too and that kinda conviced me to


Burns who now sell a wholemeal mixer designed to be fed with RAW?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

no we dident feed them frozen we had to cut them up then defrost or they went off in the fridge cas it takes her like 5 or 6 days to eat one pack lol


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2008)

Toni said:


> no we dident feed them frozen we had to cut them up then defrost or they went off in the fridge cas it takes her like 5 or 6 days to eat one pack lol


Bloody hell how small was your dog?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i must admit i liked the mices they were very easy and came in a big bag that lasted ages but in all the pet shops i looked in a only saw abot 3 flavours of the mices x she did love the tripe and still gets that raw cas she loves it so much and we still have like a whole frezer full of raw stuff left


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

The mince in PaH - lamb dinner (lamb and chicken), tripe, beef & tripe, rabbit dinner (rabbit and chicken), chicken, fish (not sure which fish) all minced, then they do natures diet beef with veg minced - all are 450g packs. The large packs are either 1kg for natures diet nuggets (dunno whats in the bag as I'm not spending money on it, lol) and then frozen free flow (2kg packs) beef mince, tripe mince and then beef chunks - I did buy a bag of the chunks but a lot of it seems to be mainly fat from the udder area so far, I've not emptied out the bag just pulled a few pieces out for the dog to munch (defrosted of course, lol, although she'd probably try it frozen) when I'm feeding the cats in the morning.

Either get a freezer knife or a small hacksaw and saw off the amount you need to give the dog and just defost that  saves it going off in the fridge. I'm lucky int hat if I get the 450g pack sizes 2 are used up by the cats and the dog in 24 hrs, but if I had to give smaller quantites I'd be getting my saw out and sawing it off.


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

she is the size of a jack but she got fat on raw food think it was the tripe lol so she cant eat much of it


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

she had the nuggets too


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

lol i rember i was thinking of getting this electick saw from argos but then i thoght i did look a little dangerous lol


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

btw it was suposed to be used to cut meat


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i cant rember if you could use it on frozen meat


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i still dont understand why raw is bettet then holistic brands sorry to be a pain lol. but i thoght like we used to eat raw meat like in cavmen days or long ago lol and then we learned to cook it and its better for us is that not the same for dogs then ?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i am actuly like torn between raw and holistic burns and stuff now after reading all this lol i could feed either as i still have a whloe frezer of raw and burns tins and biscuits but i dnt no which one to chose now lol. p.s i was just looking at the buns why not to feed raw and it says raw has a lot of fat even in lean meat which is why i think my dog gets fat on raw if am not carefull. if i decide to feed raw could i add rice and fruite and veg so its not 100% meat? i like the idea of wholebake two not fed it but fed a free sample once cas it has herbages u dnt get in raw


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

for everone who who is worried where to get meat from it dose dont have to be from a butcher but bones do. go to pets at home and get prize choice and nature menu minces and chuncks and square packs they also do nuggets. i am thinking of going back to feeding raw and if i do will defintly use prize choice and nater menue with some rice and fruite and veg and stuff, oh and wholebake mixer which has herbages mainly


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

Toni said:


> for everone who who is worried where to get meat from it dose dont have to be from a butcher but bones do. go to pets at home and get prize choice and nature menu minces and chuncks and square packs they also do nuggets. i am thinking of going back to feeding raw and if i do will defintly use prize choice and nater menue with some rice and fruite and veg and stuff, oh and wholebake mixer which has herbages mainly


do u like talking to yourself lol


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

no of corse not i was trying to help the ppl who could not get hold of meat ect. but i was just looking up raw feeding and found a very suprising and shocking web!! What Wolves Really Eat


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> do u like talking to yourself lol


... lol


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

no its not funny take a look at the web its deadly serious for your dog that is


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

and that web defently conviced me not to feed raw ( i only thinking about it before and planned to do more research before i went back to raw) and i think burns sell a mixer to go with raw cas if ppl want to feed raw its up to them and and at the end of the day they cant stop them. p.s i am not here to stop anyone feeding raw either i cant stop them either but i recoment u look at the web and make ur own desicion it might shock u and make change ur mind but who am to say


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

Truth: The benefit of meat for dogs is protein not enzyme. Secondly, cooking the meat makes it much more digestible as raw meat has indigestible collagen proteins. In the wild, mother dogs eat the meat from a kill and regurgitate for their pups - serving predigested meat. In addition, raw meat is very high in fat. Thousands of dogs die every year from Pancreatitis, and some are disabled by this disorder after being fed a raw meat diet for a short time. Not only is raw meat high in fat, but the pancreas is made to produce enzymes. Supplementing with too many live enzymes can cause the pancreas to shut down. If your dog has Pancreatitis and you aren't aware of it  a high fat diet of raw meat could kill them. THIS IS SOME OF THE INFO FROM THE I POSTED ABOVE


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

from the web posted above sorry


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

and that web also says raw meat is high in fat, which iam now sure is why my dog got fat on raw


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

Toni said:


> no of corse not i was trying to help the ppl who could not get hold of meat ect. but i was just looking up raw feeding and found a very suprising and shocking web!! What Wolves Really Eat


I could pick fault with that website all day long but I really CBA!


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Okay I can't see the website - getting the 404 error atm. I'm going to guess it's related to dog training, food etc?

I've looked on the internet and have found a couple of websites that are absolutely nothing to do with dog training, dog food manufacturing etc; articles written with a bibliography and nothing to actually do with dogs but mention their digestive tracts etc; I thought these would be a better place to look as they're not going to be biased one way or the other.
Overview of the Digestive System
Comparison Between the Digestive Tracts of a Carnivore, a Herbivore and Man - Second Opinions, UK

A Dog's Digestive System this one is related to dog stuffs but is written by someone else (theres a citation at the bottom)
http://www.dogtrainingsite.net/dogbody/dogs_digestive_system.htm I don't know who this one was written by, it is a doggy site though.


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

Hi could you tell what thefault with the thing above  iwnt ask about any others x also ppl on here think of going to raw i recomend you read the web i posted above and then decide i am not gana tell anyone jst saying have a look first. and my qustionis from reading the web i posted why do wolves live less they live to about 7-10 some pet dogs live 20 and beyond think the olddest record was 27 (dont no recored for a wolveor anything)


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

Toni said:


> why do wolves live less they live to about 7-10 some pet dogs live 20 and beyond think the olddest record was 27 (dont no recored for a wolveor anything)


How many 20 year old dogs do you know? 

I could write an essay on what I see as faults with that website starting with the fact the author describes dogs as omnivores when they are in *fact *carnivores. Doesn't fill me with confidence that she knows what she is talking about.

She claims to have done "_extensive studies_" but where is the evidence? There's links to lots of other research, most of which don't even work, the rest seem to be way out of date or contradict each other. One even seems to be positive about raw feeding. 

She rambles on about malnutrition in wolves but pet dogs don't have to find their own food, we provide for them. If our dogs became malnurished it's our fault not the diet, all that proves is that it's important to do your research and provide them with everything they need.

Another point is dental fractures, well it is my presumption that most dogs, like my own, aren't stupid enough to try and break bones that are too hard and likely to break their teeth. They know which bones to consume and which just to take the meat off, if the dog can't make this distinction it is up to the owner to ensure they don't put their dog in the position of causing themselves harm.

Dr. Julie Churchill states "_food that can potentially kill even one animal is not worth the risk_". Well we better not feed our dogs at all than as they could possibly choke on any food including kibble and home cooked meals. Fact is that dogs have died choking on kibble not to mention that certain long standing brands have been strongly linked to being the cause of many life threatening diseases.

The straw that broke the camels back: If you look far enough you will see she is promoting a commercial food that she gets commisson on. Says it all really. 

To answer your own question; wolves aren't vaccinated, wormed of treated for fleas for starters while our pet dogs are. They don't have safe shelter or a guarenteed feed. Do those differences mean we shouldn't feed raw?

To all intents and purposes pet dogs are domesticated wolves, they have the same nutritional needs and differ only 0.2% in DNA. We are in a position where we can provide them with their natural diet only in a safer form, we can dictate that we only provide foods we deem safe and ensure they get the correct balance of nutrients.


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i new one dog a lab who was 20 and a terrier mix that was 18


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

ps i think the studies was in wolve sancturarys and dogs are omnivours as they dont just eat meat they can eat fruite veg rice maize ect ( if they were carnivores why would they et fruite and veg)


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

and i woldent be worried about my dog chokeing on kibble she has the burns mini bite ones which are very small socould not do much if swallowed she has has bigger kibbles before including burns but dose not like them as much cas she has to eat them slowly lol. i did c a dog bowl that slows down eating eg if they finish in less than a min like my dog it makes them take 5 mins if i ever worry abot chocking i would probly get that bowl buts shes fine for now and i didnt c a point in getting it if she is fine plus dogs r suposed to eat quick no matter what they et arnt they


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

no idea soz i cnt even rember how long ago it was


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

it must have been 1990 summen or a bit before it was in a book i will let u no if i find out the date


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

it was a austalilian cattle dog he was 29 years 5 months and it was in 1939


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

if it died in 1939 then it probably wouldn't have been fed commercial dog food.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Katherna said:


> if it died in 1939 then it probably wouldn't have been fed commercial dog food.


almost certain


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

thanks xx that is suprising it was fed comercail dog food cas iam sure comerical food was not good quulity in them days like now. god nos how it lived so long lol !


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

p.s do you feed raw ?


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

aaahhh Toni, can't you type everything in one post


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

in reply to aj u was right about the web i posted with the dates. howerever i found another web that supports rw feeding but also shows some dangerors so i am still debating whether to my dog raw or not now so confused lol some ppl tell u to then others say not to its reli anoying . any way the web says that tripe might not be so good as dogs in the wild would eat meat bones liver heart but leave the stomac or somthing like taht you will have to look at the web (will post when i find it agen) also sorry if i upset anyone i was ( and still are so confussed and like torn between raw and holistic) they both tell you completly different things it get on my nerves


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

also getting another battersa dog soon and want feed it right even if i havent fed my dog i have now ( Holly)


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

even if i havent fed my dog now holly righ soz


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

Toni - use the edit post button instead!!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2008)

Toni said:


> thanks xx that is suprising it was fed comercail dog food cas iam sure comerical food was not good quulity in them days like now. god nos how it lived so long lol !


The dog won't have been fed commercial food in 1939.


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

lol sorry i write stuff then forget


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

so what would it have been fed ?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

yh i was refering to jop


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2008)

Toni said:


> howerever i found another web that supports rw feeding but also shows some dangerors so i am still debating whether to my dog raw or not now so confused


Everyone knows there are risks to feeding raw but it's about individuals weighing up the pros and cons and deciding what is best for their dogs. If you think the risks out weigh the benefits stick with a good quality commerial food. If you think the benefits outweigh the risks then make the switch to raw and ditch the death biscuits for good!


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

We switched to raw about 6 weeks ago, including our puppy. And I can quite honestly say the positive changes already are amazing.

Neither has sloppy poo's anymore, my fuss pot boy eats every last scrap for the first time ever and his usually manky coat is starting to look wonderful (he suffers from dallie rash so can look really mangey)

Took me nearly 18 months of dithering and reading all sorts on the internet, but I never found one person that actually fed their pets on it have a bad thing to say about it.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2008)

Toni said:


> so what would it have been fed ?


Raw meat, bones and scraps from the table (educated guess).


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i no about health risks with bones and stuff but it was saying wolves eat everything and leave the stomac


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i will have to try and find the web agen i lost it


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i am not realy woried about risks just like the stomac ( tripe thing and the high fat i dont wether to get the prixe choice nater menue ones or stuff from butcher i ( i just dont no what kinds of meat are best)


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Tripe is fantastic stuff for dogs - I know thousands of dogs fed it and I have heard of 1 not liking it - I have fed it for years without one single problem!!!


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey? this is the web it says wolves only eat stomaccontent in small animals eg mice rabbit but big animals like sheep it eats the stomac wall but not the stomac it shakes it out and leaves it.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Tripe is the bovine stomach walls. Green tripe isn't bleached like the tripe you can see in the shops for human consumption. It's named green as the grass has stained it a greenish colour. Humans eat 3 out of the 4 stomachs inthe various tripes sold in butchers shops, green contains all 4.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Toni said:


> no its not funny take a look at the web its deadly serious for your dog that is


chill out


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Toni if you are sooooooooooooo worried about raw then stick with complete - simple really


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

*This conversation is going no-where. If you have all these worries don't do it* as you need to be sure b4 you start or your dog will have a bumpy ride. I think you should leave raw alone. I'm clocking off of this thread for good. Ta Ta


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

no i deefintally am going tot now jst wana no where to get things and about thee tripe thing. yes i was worried but i looked at afew more webs n iam not worried anymore


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

so is the green tripe the stomac wall or the stomac ?


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

does it matter??


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i mean like what tripe should i i get one from butcher or green tripe ?


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Green tripe but butchers dont sell it


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Where do you live Toni?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

well the reason i wana no is cas the web says wolves leave the stomac cas it has vegtsbet matter and dogs dnt need veg cas ther carnivours (but it says they eat the stomac wall)


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

ongar essex


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Well have a look here, I dont know if they deliver in your area but you can ring to find out.

Landywood Pet Foods : Home

Read THE WHOLE SITE and then you need to get yourself sorted out with a freezer, buy the book Give Your Dog A Bone by Dr Ian Billinghurst and learn what your dog needs. Remember any dietary changes need to be made slowly and over a few weeks.

Can we leave this topic now cos it's going nowhere fast


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

so basicaly can you get a tripe that is made from just the wall ? if so whats that one called ?


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

ihave a frezer from the last time i fed raw. but i mostly used the pet shop mice tis time i wana get other stuff too


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sorry Toni I'll say this politely - you're getting bogged down in the detail and getting on my t*ts  Just go on the Landywoodds site and do some learning - dogs can and do benefit from eating raw, mulched veg


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

i will look at the web to. txs


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## Freya'n'Sassy (Aug 13, 2008)

I have not found Landywoods very helpful in the past, and I know several people who have had problems with them.

Have a look at this site T.P.M.S. Pet Food Specialists - Tripe I have heard lots of good things about them, and I intend using them next time


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I've used Landywoods for 3 years and I cant say a bad word about them - they've been very accomodating, helpful and knowledgeable on the phone and all the food I've had from them has been excellent and they've been chirpy and chatty on the phone However, I was pointing Toni to their site as I think it's quite informative - I dont even know if they deliver in her area but she does need to get some knowledge from somewhere so it's a decent enough place to start


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

I picked up a load of tripe yesterday from pets at home. It comes in small neat packages (77p for 400gm) or in bulk either minced or in chunks, both are £3.39 for 2kg which i thought was quite good value. They have done all the work, so much better than going to the arbertoire and having all the smell and mess. They also do a lot of other things for that price too so i loaded up yesterday but had a real problem squeezing it all in!! Shall have to invest in another freezer!!!!!


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Tanja if you buy Tripe from Landywoods you get 454g for 30p Before I used Landywoods I used to use our local pet shop and paid the same price as you - but now I can feed 2 adult male Rotts for less than it cost me to feed one


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

Just been on Landywood site - the prices are half the price!! Does anyone know how much delivery is?


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

You need a decent sized freezer and minimum order is £40 I think - not sure but I think delivery is free, or next to nowt anyhoo


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

I know, the prices are insane arent they ? I went to my butchers the other day to see what i could get, and its something like £2.50 for a chicken.

I think Landywoods is alot cheaper but i have issues understanding the price list. 454g of chicken carcass costs £0.25. Underneath the list however, it says that minced meats come in 36x454g and chunky meats (hearts, liver, wings, etc) note no mention of carcass', come in lots of 2.3kg. So am i to assume that you cannot buy a single chicken carcass. NOt that i would ever want to buy just a single chicken and pay delivery on it. Just want to know how to order the amount you actually want. Ill figure it out need a freezer.

I cannot find any info on Landywoods delivery but im fairly sure i read somewhere else in this forum that it was about £22. I suppose that depends on where you live mind.

BTW anyone in the Bournemouth,Poole,Parkstone,Creekmoore,Hamworthy ect ect area that is intererested in sharing a delivery let me know.


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

coolkat said:


> I picked up a load of tripe yesterday from pets at home. It comes in small neat packages (77p for 400gm) or in bulk either minced or in chunks, both are £3.39 for 2kg which i thought was quite good value. They have done all the work, so much better than going to the arbertoire and having all the smell and mess. They also do a lot of other things for that price too so i loaded up yesterday but had a real problem squeezing it all in!! Shall have to invest in another freezer!!!!!


Hi coolcat, the prize choice things you got from pets at home you can also order direct for much cheaper Natural Frozen Pet Foods - Prize Choice - The Natural Food for Healthy Animals


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Toni - 


Toni said:


> so is the green tripe the stomac wall or the stomac ?





Toni said:


> well the reason i wana no is cas the web says wolves leave the stomac cas it has vegtsbet matter and dogs dnt need veg cas ther carnivours (but it says they eat the stomac wall)


I've already answered this one (take it from a butcher I know what parts of a bovine are what)


Katherna said:


> Tripe is the bovine stomach walls. Green tripe isn't bleached like the tripe you can see in the shops for human consumption. It's named green as the grass has stained it a greenish colour. Humans eat 3 out of the 4 stomachs in the various tripes sold in butchers shops, green contains all 4.


So tripe is the stomach wall. There maybe a very very small amount of cud in it but not very much.


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

oh i c so green tripe is the stomac wall lol


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

txs i decided now as soon as all the burns stuff is gone and my 10yr old will go back to raw andwhen i get the pup he will too. done alot more research this time arond an want to feed mice and whloe like chicken n bones


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## Toni (Aug 18, 2008)

mince and whloe soz


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Is it safe to assume that the minced meat my local butcher sells at 64p a Kg is going to be absolute crap in terms of nutritional value. I mean obviously shes not going to get to chew down the bones or really have to think about chewing her food ect ect. But on a purely nutritional level. Surely the scraps he minces are just small amounts of what you'd be feeding a raw fed dog anyway. But instead of 1Kg of 1animal, theres 1Kg of about 100bits of 4 animals.

I only ask because i cannot stand pouring 'Wag' into Daisy's bowl after all the research i have done on it and the advice i have recieved here and yet...i cant quite figure out this landywoods site and still dont have a freezer large enough to accomodate a month or two's worth of meat !

3rd'ly - If weight bearing bones are no good. Then where does the chewing come into play ? I have had a look at chicken carcasses ect and there really doesnt seem to be many chewable bones on there, most bones on there i could use as a tooth pick !!!

I bought Daisy a shoulder of Lamb the other day, see how she got on with it....she tried to swallow the thing whole. Hard work feeding Daisy now, i spend most of my time with my arm in her mouth pulling 500g slabs of bone out of her mouth ! She knows exactly what shes doing wrong because i only have to do it once and she begins to chomp it down into smaller bits. Even then she tends only to break it up, fold it up, then swallow it again. It just seems a real shame to finally feed her food with real texture and real taste yet it barely touches her tounge !!

I have taken to drilling a small hole through the thickest bit of bone and attaching some thin rope through it and to a stair post or chair leg or something that anchors the thing to the ground so that the only way it gets into her mouth is in small bits. Scares the crap outta me when she manages to get a HUGE bones in her mouth and swallow it before i can get to her. 

On that note, is there some kinda doggy heighmlich manouver i should know about ? Or is it a dangle upside down thing ? I cannot imagine a firm slap on the back will work for dogs due to thier anatomy. So when she does start choking as she almost certianly will with her habits, what the general protocol ?

THank you guys


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## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

I will have a go at some of your questions - 
mince from butchers. There is nutritional value from this as it is raw. When you cook it the enzyme change so destroy some of the natural vits, or rather reduce. However you don't know the ages of the meat they are puttig in to it. You also don't kow what they are putting into it but i do personnaly like to think its a good way of introducing kidney and heart as its a diluted version. Some may disagree with this. 
chicken - my dogs like wings. They have to chew them up. They suit them very well and we did a lot of the transition phase on them. 
Taste - well taste is a factor, it tastes much better then dry wag. even if it appears to only last seconds. Think the texture _might_ sit nicely in tum too. My dogs get much more excited about what they are having now. Its nice to have a varied flavour and texture rather than the same thing everyday. 
I hope this answers a few questions. There will be people that disagree with some things i have written but this suits my dogs. Their breathe is also almost smell-free. And i don't feed lots of bones because it causes huge bad feelings all night even if fed seperately but i would do if i just had one dog.


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Methical - what is the butcher calling the minced meat? Pet food or pet mince something like that? Ask him whats in it. A lot of butchers put the end pieces into pet mince - those pieces that have slightly dried with them being in the display, whats not sold that day stuff like that. Just ask him whats in it. Some put 'lights' into it (lungs - although not sure if they're allowed to or not with bse as I'd stopped working by then) kidney, hearts, trim from the egdes of some cuts of meat like the flank etc; 
Chicken wings are a great hit for the dogs, they chomp them up. My dog tries to swallow big lumps an can make herself sick with it, she chews the wings properly, but give her a big lump of meat and she'll do her best to swallow it in one go, if you're worried about her trying to swallow somehting thats too big then dice the meat up into smaller chunks, I usually dice anything to about 1" square (only takes a couple of minutes to do, if you don't like the feel of raw meat then wear a pair of latex or rubber gloves so you're not actually touching it, I know some people can't stand the feel of raw meat).


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Ok, thank you kindly for your answers.

Yes, the butcher calls it 'pet meat' I asked him whats in it and he said "everything" which i find hard to believe. I asked him what he does with the meat at the end of the day and he said "vacuume pack it and sell the next day"  

I have taken to chopping up the meat into pieces but one of the things that lured me to raw feeding was the work they have to put in to getting the food. I dont much like the sound of Diasy eating, you can actually hear her inhaling it !!!

I bought her a big BIG joint of beef one time and it was very enjoyable just watching her spin it about, trying different angles and different parts of her jaw. Took her about an hour to eat it all. Just seems a shame that she looses that along with being able to chew on a bone for a while afterwards when i cut it up into pieces.

When dogs get stuff stuck in thier throat, are the generally good at getting it out again ? I mean, am i over worring about her trying to eat her weight in meat in under 3 seconds or do i just need to let her get stuff stuck in her throat for her to learn the correct technique ?

Finally, since raw feeding she has been producing some award winning stools  They dont stink and are solid, SO easy to pick up BUT. She seems to be having issues getting them out. She looks very panicked when poo'ing and often squats there for AGES before anything comes out and then again AGES after she stops before she gets out of the squat position. Most of the time she will travel a good 100meters and then need another poo. Seems like consipation right ?

Maybe i am wrong but i read that consipation was a result of too much bone, not enough...something else. But we havn't got a freezer yet so she hasnt been eating any bones, just mushed up 'pet meat' and the occasional chicken fillet thats left over from 2 humans eating from a 3 pack of chicken.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

There may well be bone in the pet mince. 

The problem with feeding something when you don't know exactly what is in it, is that you don't really know if she is getting a balanced diet, and too much of some offal, like liver, can be dangerous. I would stick to the pet mince as an occasion use product, maybe three times max a week. (assuming feeding twice a day)


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## Methical (Jul 11, 2008)

Yea well it stinks and does nothing for her breath as a result so once i get a freezer sorted and finally figure out what to order from Landywoods i hope not to touch the pet mince stuff. At 32p a Lb it can hardly be quality !!!

Thing is its damn good as a suspension in Kongs. Just thought the other day, whats the point in feeding her RAW if i then fill her 2 x Kongs with dog biscuits anyway lol !


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## Sypher (Sep 29, 2008)

Great articles and a great read. Been very useful for me as just switched over to raw.


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## Freya'n'Sassy (Aug 13, 2008)

Methical said:


> Ok, thank you kindly for your answers.
> 
> Finally, since raw feeding she has been producing some award winning stools  They dont stink and are solid, SO easy to pick up BUT. She seems to be having issues getting them out. She looks very panicked when poo'ing and often squats there for AGES before anything comes out and then again AGES after she stops before she gets out of the squat position. Most of the time she will travel a good 100meters and then need another poo. Seems like consipation right ?
> 
> Maybe i am wrong but i read that consipation was a result of too much bone, not enough...something else. But we havn't got a freezer yet so she hasnt been eating any bones, just mushed up 'pet meat' and the occasional chicken fillet thats left over from 2 humans eating from a 3 pack of chicken.


Constipation is caused by too much bone, so may be if you are not giving it too her it is in the pet meat? Though our butchers won't mince bones as they say it would wreck their very expensive mincers!! I find with mine a little extra beef, heart or liver gets them "going" if they have had too much bone!


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## mandjt (Oct 1, 2009)

Dogs are and will always be carnivores in the wild what do they eat?? yes they eat raw meat and raw bones, they dont eat veg or biscuits and they dont have anyone to freeze it or cook it for them. All this dried dog food with bits of coloured stuff in it supposed to be veg, well it is only put in dog food for us humans to believe that it is veg and is good for our dogs. Well dogs only see in black and white so all the coloured bit mean nothing to a dog. Feed them raw and keep them happy sure give them biscuits if you dont give them bones as this helps with dental hygene


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