# False pregnancy or real one?



## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hello everyone,
I work for a dog rescue and ive just taken in a beautiful little female JRT today, we have no history on her as she was a stray, but she has all the signs of being pregnant- Enlarged vulva, huge nipples and a big tummy (she also eats like she has never seen food before). She has seen 2 vets, one who said that he didnt think that she was pregnant, or if she was she could be hiding the babies under her rib cage (poor little lady was clipped by a car when wandering the streets) another vet says that he thinkgs that she is pregnant!
Im pulling my hair out!!!! just wish I knew either way, she is at least safe and warm now with us.
Anyway, I know that its a long shot but does anyone have any advice on the differences between a real pregnancy and a false one?
Many thanks
sarah x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

daisy34 said:


> ...the differences between a real pregnancy and a false one?


ultrasound?  urine-test?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

can the vet not scan her?


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

The only way you will know for sure is by ultrasound scan,unless she is so near her time that you can see the little pups wriggling etc.Alot of bitches carry their pups high,so not easy to be sure.I would advise you find a vet that will scan her.That way you can prepare her and yourself.If she is not pregnant it may be a phantom pregnancy.Hope all goes well.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone,
I feel a bit calmer thismorning, its been so difficult as we know nothing about her and first we were told pregnant, then not pregnant etc etc.
Ive researched so much on the internet regarding pregnancy and whelping etc, although it will be the first litter of puppies ive had at home if she is indeed pregnant, Im so glad that ive found this wonderful place to come and chat and ask questions, as if there are indeed going to be puppies I will be constantly asking questions from you all!!
It just the not knowing thats driving me bonkers!! I will fix her up with a vet appointment and get a urine test done, the other thing to ask is- does the pregnancy show up on the urine test early?
Thanks again
warm wishes
Sarah xx


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

you need a scan to confirm pregnancy hun.

Surely you will have the support of the rescue that you work for????

Or have you bought a pregnant girl from the free-ads?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

sarah whereabouts are you in KenT?? feel free to pm me .


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> you need a scan to confirm pregnancy hun.
> 
> Surely you will have the support of the rescue that you work for????
> 
> Or have you bought a pregnant girl from the free-ads?


Ok, I just came here for some support and advice, I foster for 'The Little Dog Rescue' Home - The Little Dog Rescue if you would like to have a look on the web, Little dogs is a completely volunteer run rescue, that survives on fund raising, we spay and neuter and vaccinate every single dog that comes through, and many of our little ones have long term health problems. 
I have 6 dogs in my house at the mo, 4 of them are fosters for the rescue (one of which has been removed from a house as he had been raped by a family member) so we see it all sadly,but try to do our very best by the little ones, and everyone involved in the rescue works our butts off to help these abandoned little ones everyday, so no I have not bought her from 'free ads' I work hard to help the problem of unwanted dogs, not cause it, both of my own dogs are rescues too.
I just popped by to get some advice thats all, the little lady who we think is pregnant (I have named her Tilly) wouldnt be far along enough yet to get a clear picture of the puppies IF there are any, especially if she is guarding them and hiding them under her ribs. I will speak to my vet to get some tests done, I obviously realised that she would need a scan and urine test in time, I just wanted to ask some experienced people if they had any significant information that I hadnt heard of from their own experiences of false and real pregnancies that may help me to have further insight to this little ladies predicament. I dont want to rush her off to the vets yet, she is absoloutely terrified of everything and I dont think she has ever lived in a house before, so I dont want to take her to another vets until she has settled a couple of days, she has been checked over by the vets when she was in the RSPCA shelter before we collected her 2 days ago, but they didnt bother to test her, one vet said yes, his collegue said no. Im just looking for as much info as possible so that I can be as organised as possible for this lovely little lady.
If you would like to have a chat with me so that I can prove to you that I work with rescue dogs then send me a pm and I will give you my number so we can have a chat.
kind regards
sarah


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

daisy34 said:


> Ok, I just came here for some support and advice, I foster for 'The Little Dog Rescue' Home - The Little Dog Rescue if you would like to have a look on the web, Little dogs is a completely volunteer run rescue, that survives on fund raising, we spay and neuter and vaccinate every single dog that comes through, and many of our little ones have long term health problems.
> I have 6 dogs in my house at the mo, 4 of them are fosters for the rescue (one of which has been removed from a house as he had been raped by a family member) so we see it all sadly,but try to do our very best by the little ones, and everyone involved in the rescue works our butts off to help these abandoned little ones everyday, so no I have not bought her from 'free ads' I work hard to help the problem of unwanted dogs, not cause it, both of my own dogs are rescues too.
> I just popped by to get some advice thats all, the little lady who we think is pregnant (I have named her Tilly) wouldnt be far along enough yet to get a clear picture of the puppies IF there are any, especially if she is guarding them and hiding them under her ribs. I will speak to my vet to get some tests done, I just wanted to ask some experienced people if they had any significant information that I hadnt heard of that may help me to have further insight to this little ladies predicament.
> If you would like to have a chat with me so that I can prove to you that I work with rescue dogs then send me a pm and I will give you my number so we can have a chat.
> ...


Thats terrible. Well done you for helping these poor little critters. If she's too early along according to the vet, it may just be that she is a little wormy is she has an enlarged tummy, but I am beginning to doubt this as her vulva is still swollen. This is normally a give away for me, along with clear discharge, but discharge doesnt happen to everyone, so if she doesnt discharge it doesnt necessarily mean she isnt in whelp.
Maybe if you could put some pictures up of her standing normally, flat on her side, and standing on her backlegs with someone supportin her we might get a better idea of her shape and be able to comment a little better. There is a member called archilee on here, she has recently taken these type of pictures I am describing, if you don't know what i mean about the positioning


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i asked you to pm me where you live as i might be able to put you onto a sheep scanner that for £25 would tell you for definite if she was or she wasn't.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks so much Tanya for your supportive words, this little lady has got right under my skin! I cant imagine how frightened she must have been alone, ?pregnant and hit by a car.
Ive had a good cry now at the free ads comment! feeling a little better with my cup of tea!
I have a feeling that im going to be on here alot asking a million questions!
Im going to get some pictures of her later and will try and get some of her that shows how shes laying etc.
Thanks again for the support, its funny how every now and then a little one eally can get into our hearts, im a mum, so I guess my 'female' side has come out with this little lady!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

No words of wisdom but a huge Thanks for helping a little lady in need...Bless you...Jill


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

We are all here to help you. I remember how frightened I was with my first litter, and that was planned! I can't imagine what its like taking in a strange dog with the possibility of having pups. We'll help you all the way


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

give eileen or chris a ring hun they will talk you through it all 

my miso is from LDR

now i mentioned the free ads, and there is absoloutly no need to feel affronted. I too work for rescue and get a huge amount of support from them, YET as you know you see it all. Its not uncommon for someone to "pretend" to have rescued a dog that they have either deliberatly bred themself OR who they have bought from the free ads. If i offended you then i am sorry but please try to see it from my point of view. On here we see these types of posts often, and more often than not they are from liars and back yard breeders. I'm sorry that i misjudged you.


LDR are a fabulous rescue, and i know they will support you fully.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks so very very very much everyone, im so very grateful to have found this forum, ive been looking at it for a very long time and have found so much useful information along the way. I sit in bed with my laptop at night reading through threads! although ive not posted much at all.
I dont feel so afraid knowing that there are lots of people out there to talk to, Chris (LDR) is great and will give me any support I need too, its just driving me CRANKY not knowing, I will wait a week when the little lady is a bit more settled and pop her to my vets, if she is pregnant at least I can get 'ready' and that will make me feel soooo much better, I hate feeling unprepared in the sense that I have everything in my head sorted as to what to do, but I cant do anything practically until im sure.
Billyboysmammy, thank you so very much for the kind words and apology, im not usually sensitive its just been one of those weeks, and I do completely understand you being reserved as there are alot of 'bad apples' out there, the longer I work in rescue, the more terrible the stories I hear, I struggle to understand peoples behaviour towards dogs and some of the stories are beyond awful.
I have a staffy cross JRT foster at the moment, and I had never known people disliking a breed until I had him, I actually had a woman say to me the other day ''Oh hes one of those horrible attack dogs, get him away'!! and people will say hi to all my little ones but move away from him completely!!
The funny thing is he is the most adorable, soft, beautiful cuddle monster ive EVER had!! 
Peoples attitudes never fail to amaze me, I adore staffies and with attitudes like ive seen recently its no wonder there are so many in rescue, the other half and I are going to adopt a staffy later on decided from what ive seen with my foster.

On a positive note little Tilly as been on her first pack walk! she really enjoyed having a sniff and a mull around, we popped her off the lead in a very safe area and she really didnt stray much from my side at all. Her claws and pads are in a mess and she is very unsure of a lead, house etc, I wonder if she has ever had a home, looks as though she has been roaming the streets for a while, She is eating really well and has shown a little excitement towards us, small steps, one at a time.

Anyway im rambling away, thank you all so very much, the support is so appreciated, especially at the moment.
Chat soon
Sarah and the 'gang' xxx


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Sarah, imagining that dear little soul and what she may have been through. Listening to you, your concern and all you have done for her brings tears to my eyes.
It's people like you that make this world a nicer place xx


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

seconded


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Oh dont, im blushing!
The truth is I like dogs more than alot of people, and I wonder how I ever lived my life without them, they are amazing animals, doesnt matter what they have been through they still trust us, and love unconditionally, they dont turn whats happened to them into hatred that hurts others and that amazes me.

I take my hat off to all the people who have dedicated their lives to setting up and maintaing a private volunteer rescue, I know that Chris is always busy, her phone rings constantly with little ones often in appauling states,first thing in the morning and last thing at night and they are never turned away.
Rescue has also changed my opinion and restored some of my faith in humans, as for every terrible story there are two people who open their homes at any time for a dog (or 4!!)

I hope that I win the lottery so that I can buy a big house with some land and fill it with rescue doggies :thumbup:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

surely if her vulva is swollen and she has the signs you are describing then she is near the end of her pregnancy. A scan done by an experienced operator will show up a very early pregnancy anyway but as there would be no outward signs of an early pregnancy she cant be early on so there should be no problem finding out for sure with a scan.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks Blitz, The parameters of false pregnancy and actual pregnancy can be so close though, some dogs will show a swollen vulva, enlarged nipples and weight gain very early on, so it would be difficult to tell a time spectrum either way. Im not sure why the vet she saw already didnt scan her/test her urine unless they thought it was too early to do so. 
I will pop her to my vet this week and see what she thinks interms of pregnant or not and if pregnant how far along? otherwise I think all of my hair will be grey with wondering/worrying!


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hello Everyone,
Me and my questions again! Ive noticed that the lovely Tilly has a white stringy discharge coming from her vagina, does this happen in phantom pregnancy too?
Im going to call my vets practice and see if they can see her tmrw morning, the not knowing is driving me bonkers!
She loved her walk today and there has been alot more tail wagging going on!! she is still very very nervous of people but great with other dogs, very excited to meet them all!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

daisy34 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> Me and my questions again! Ive noticed that the lovely Tilly has a white stringy discharge coming from her vagina, does this happen in phantom pregnancy too?
> Im going to call my vets practice and see if they can see her tmrw morning, the not knowing is driving me bonkers!
> She loved her walk today and there has been alot more tail wagging going on!! she is still very very nervous of people but great with other dogs, very excited to meet them all!


just googled it, and apparently yes they can have a mucoid discharge. x


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks hun, ive seriously got to relax, stop using google to search and wait to see the vets!!! Thanks for googling too, ive been reading away and trying to find any obvious differences and there just dont appear to be any.
I must stop thinking about it until I can see the vet, hopefully they will be able to find out straight away, Im going to get way too many grey hairs in the next little while!


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Have you got any photos of the girl?


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

I managed a sneaky one of her eating yday, she is frightened of the camera or my phone peeking at her!
I will try to put one up of her now.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

daisy34 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> Me and my questions again! Ive noticed that the lovely Tilly has a white stringy discharge coming from her vagina, does this happen in phantom pregnancy too?
> Im going to call my vets practice and see if they can see her tmrw morning, the not knowing is driving me bonkers!
> She loved her walk today and there has been alot more tail wagging going on!! she is still very very nervous of people but great with other dogs, very excited to meet them all!


hi daisy and firstly well done to you for fostering the little ones it is usually the last 3 weeks that the stringy discharge appears but that is in my experiance she may be further along than you think? i would try to get her scanned as soon as you can? wishing you all the best with the little one and ones!!!


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> hi daisy and firstly well done to you for fostering the little ones it is usually the last 3 weeks that the stringy discharge appears but that is in my experiance she may be further along than you think? i would try to get her scanned as soon as you can? wishing you all the best with the little one and ones!!!


My girl had a stringy discharge at 4 weeks, i know they can get it at the end too


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Meet Tilly, bear with the pics, I will get some more and hopefully be able to post some better ones asap.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Here is the beautiful little lady showing her belly bump when relaxed, its so nice to see her tucked up on the sofa and looking chilled out.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

archielee said:


> My girl had a stringy discharge at 4 weeks, i know they can get it at the end too


thats right they are all different, i had one had it from 3 weeks but generally the last 3 ish weeks. the little one does look pregnant to me


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I would put money on her having pups in there (you can ask archielee how accurate I am, eh Lee?), although stringy discharge CAN happen in phantoms, it is a give away for me my bitch has caught


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

My oh is convinced she is pregnant, Im sitting on the fence until weve seen the vet,If the vet says yes I will probably wet myself with excitement and then home to right lists and prepare! im a practical hands on person that im ok once I can prepare for things and get ready for whatever is going to happen, its not knowing thats hard for me.
Im just so relieved that she was found and bought into rescue too, imagine the poor girl being alone and with no home now???

The info on this forum is amazing, its so good to be able to go through posts that explain everything thats needed for whelping from peoples experiences, im so glad ive found it!


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

We have a vets appointment at 4pm, I will feel much better when she has been looked at by the vets, she has a very sore eye where she was clipped by a car and isnt in the best condition bless her.
I will let you all know what the vet says later, fingers crossed for her that all is ok.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

fingers crossed x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

fingers crossed here too


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Good luck at the vets this afternoon!!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Will be thinking of you both with everything crossed and hope to hear some good news later.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks so much for all of your support, im so very glad to have you all here with me through this, 50 minutes til I leave, ive been clock watching all day!


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I would put money on her having pups in there (you can ask archielee how accurate I am, eh Lee?), although stringy discharge CAN happen in phantoms, it is a give away for me my bitch has caught


Yes you was right will my girl, she looks pregnant to me, good luck at the vets today


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Any news yet?


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Just got home,
The vet had a feel and guess what??
Said it is either early pregnancy or a false one!!!!! :confused1::confused1::confused1::confused1:

Have to wait a couple of weeks and take her back, she did say that Tilly's uterus is swollen but thats all she could feel for now, she will need an operation for her prolapsed third eye later, but they will wait until they spay her and do both ops at once, Im glad ive seen the vet regarding the eye as this had been worrying me.
I will just have to keep an eye on Tillys tummy and take her back to the vets in 2 weeks, I just knew that this would happen!! Im just going to have to be very patient until then, but it will be constantly on my mind!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Shame he couldn't give you an answer, did he not offer to scan?


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Its really irritating when you want an answer and noone can give it to you!! 
patience is not something im good at,so good luck waiting two weeks lol!!
glad she is ok tho


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

Good luck with it.

hope you get the result you want


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I would get someone out to scan her


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

The vet did say if her signs were more obvious in 2 weeks we will organise a scan, I will keep a close eye on her and take her back before if I feel I need to.
She did say that if she is pregnant its very early so she may not be able to palpate effectively.
Im growing grey hairs rappidly!!!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

hehe

billys was an accidental pup. Genuine accident from a silly mistake (didnt quite shut the catch on the boys pen), early into season, slip mating. Decided mismate was too risky (vet used the old type not the new), and a scan revealed nothing.

Enter billy! Singleton pup (dangerous in itself), from a mum who hadnt been fed an adequate pregnancy diet, wasnt really showing any signs of pregnancy, just a mild false.

Luckily she had another planned and pedigree litter with another bitch for billy to socialise with (singletons can be problematic), however it was a nightmare for her.

So... even with a scan it can be wrong!


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

I think that I will keep feeding her as though she is pregnant, she needs some good food anyway as she could do with putting on some weight and her condition isnt great, she needs a little spoiling!
two weeks is gonna feel like forever!!

My Yorkie Poppy was a single pup, the vet had also told her mummys owners that she was having a false pregnancy, yet poppy came into the world a few weeks later!!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Flippin heck, the suspense is killing.

I noticed you had posted so excitedly came to see if Tilly was pregnant and now have to wait 2 weeks - goodness only knows how you must feel. The little lass is certainly keeping us all on tenterhooks!!!

Still, worth waiting bless her little cotton socks. On the one hand I hope she's not but on the other, I will be a tad disappointed.

Give her a big kiss from Heidi X


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

daisy34 said:


> Here is the beautiful little lady showing her belly bump when relaxed, its so nice to see her tucked up on the sofa and looking chilled out.


To be honest, looking at this photo, I would say she was past the 4 week post mating stage if she is pregnant?


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

bet the suspence is killing you, 

i bet along with most of us posting on here, i'll be slightly dispointed if she wasnt!


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

I feel a bit more relaxed today, (im sure that wont last!)
I would be a bit disapointed if she wasnt pregnant now to be honest as ive got my head around it happening, the puppies would all be given to people who have been vetted by the dog rescue so they would get good homes, and of course I would love looking after Tilly and her little ones for as long as needed, it would be such an honour.

Tilly is settling in slowly, she is still very wary and nervous, but her little tail is always wagging away, even if she is nervous and in front of us but not too close. She actually came up on the sofa with me thisevening and had a little snuggle which she really enjoyed.
She really is a lovely little girl! and will be a wonderful little doglet when she is more confident.
I feel really lucky at the moment as I have another lovely foster Ollie who is a brown/brindle staffy cross JRT, he is a cuddle monster and very very handsome! 
Benji and Poppy seem to really like these two as well so the foursome is really balanced and a lovely little pack, Im very lucky!

This is gorgeous Ollie my other foster,


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

I realise that this might be controversial (I don't mean it to be) but would spaying her now be an option?

It sounds like she's got a lot of adjusting to do and some understandable insecurities right now which is a lot to cope alone without adding a litter of pups to the mix.



daisy34 said:


> Hello everyone,
> we have no history on her as she was a stray
> 
> (poor little lady was clipped by a car when wandering the streets)





daisy34 said:


> she is absoloutely terrified of everything and I dont think she has ever lived in a house before,





daisy34 said:


> Her claws and pads are in a mess and she is very unsure of a lead, house etc, I wonder if she has ever had a home, looks as though she has been roaming the streets for a while,





daisy34 said:


> she is frightened of the camera or my phone peeking at her!





daisy34 said:


> she needs some good food anyway as she could do with putting on some weight and her condition isnt great


A few things that have jumped out at me are *if* she is pregnant, it is obviously with an un-known dog. If he was bigger than her there's the possibility of complications.

If her body weight and condition aren't great now, it is going to be an uphill struggle to improve her condition while she is carrying and feeding pups.

If she is pregnant, she's only got a small amount of time to settle in and loose some of her fear or she could pass on her nervousness to the pups.

It just seems an awful lot of strain on her little body when she has been through so much already. I don't want to get into a debate with anybody over the rights and wrongs and I wouldn't have mentioned it at all if she was definitely pregnant. It's just that waiting and seeing seems like a pretty big gamble to me.

I know that you will do your best for her regardless. I'm sure she's grateful she landed on her paws with you to look out for her. Good luck.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snuggles said:


> It sounds like she's got a *lot of adjusting* to do and some understandable *insecurities* right now which is a lot to cope (with, even) without adding a litter of pups to the mix.
> 
> ... *if* she is pregnant, it is obviously with an un-known dog. If he was bigger than her there's the *possibility of complications*.
> 
> ...


agreed - if i had a vet i trusted, who agreed this was a safe option, i would opt to desex *now*. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I agree with Snuggles - have you spoken to the vet to see if this is a safe option for her?
I'd be worried about complications, due to her physical and mental health and the unknown size of the sire.

What ever the outcome I wish you all the best, well done for taking her on she sounds like a real sweet heart.


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

Fleur said:


> I agree with Snuggles - have you spoken to the vet to see if this is a safe option for her?
> I'd be worried about complications, due to her physical and mental health and the unknown size of the sire.
> 
> What ever the outcome I wish you all the best, well done for taking her on she sounds like a real sweet heart.


i would hold your horses, as she doesnt even know if she is yet!

im sure daisy will know her dog best and what she thinks she can cope with.

i agree with you all but if daisy or her vet thinks she cant cope they will take appropriate action.

i do not wish for a fight just theres 2 sides to everything.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hi All,
Thank you all for your comments, I can understand peoples concern and opinions.
The vet did mention spaying as an option, but wouldnt do it yet for a few reasons, so we are going to discuss all options in two weeks time.

I can understand the concerns with her mental condition, she is an amazing little dog and in the few days weve had her she has made so many changes and is growing trust and confidence each day.
When outside she is a completely different dog, very social, loves pottering with the pack happily, and is very friendly with other dogs and humans. Her nervousness is based around our time in the house where she isnt confident, but it has been great for her having the 3 other dogs around as she has watched them communicate and be around us humans and in gaining trust from watching their behaviour. She comes to her name now (amazing considering shes only had the name since Friday) and for the past 2 mornings has been on the bed ready to lick my face when I wake up :001_wub
I know that I cant just make everything right in a short space of time and make everything ok for her, but if she relaxes and settles at the rate she is at the moment I think we will see a different dog in a few weeks.
As I say, Im not naive or ignorant enough to think that im gonna make everything right overnight, but im very positive about her.

She has made great friends with my female yorkshire terrier Poppy (who usually keeps herself to herself!) they are tucked up together now watching me sleepily!

There is alot to consider, the welfare of both Tilly and of any prospective puppies that there may or may not be are of paramount importance to me.
For me as well there is the issue of possible life to consider, it would be a huge decision to make whatever the outcome of knowing if Tilly is pregnant or not.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I think you are coping really well providing the best possible care you can for her and considering all the options and outcomes as best you can. I have no doubt from reading your words that you will make the right decision (whatever that may be) in 2 weeks and it will be what's best for Tilly. In the meantime, keep enjoying her. 

Just may be if she is pregnant, the vet would be able to scan and get an idea of the size of the pups. (total shot in the dark, no knowledge in this field whatsoever)


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

Hows she going?

any news yet?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I cant believe the vet wont scan her, what is his problem. I think I would just insist on a scan now.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hello,
Well little Tilly is a wonderful work in progress! She is slowly starting to come out of herself and trusting me a little more each day. This evening she jumped onto my lap when invited for a cuddle, she snuggled up, fell fast asleep with a little smile in her face, and she was soon snoring (she is a great snorer )
She has toilet trained perfectly now and is such a happy little bunny on our walks, she never runs too far ahead (she is usually right beside me) but today she ran ahead for a second to sniff with my other 3. She is very social when out and loves to sniff other dogs.
She is eating really well-not quite as frantically as before now she knows its a regular occurance, although she is still VERY wary if I move to quickly around her indoors and will cower away, its so sad as I cant (and dont want to) imagine what has made her so frightend of sharp human movement. She is coming to me when I call her indoors more now, and just needs alot of patience and being gentle around her. She is slowly trusting that we are 'safe' humans.

Physically her symptoms are all the same, I have been trying to work out if she has put a teeny bit of weight on her tummy, dont know if she has or its me imagining it.
Will call the vets next week to see her again.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Glad she's coming out of her shell. great news


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm confused - if she is too early in her pregnancy to be scanned then for goodness sake get her spayed ! - if she is too far along to be spayed then get her scanned - whats the problem ? - if your own vet won't do it then find one that will - (my bitches are scanned at 3 weeks) - if she is earlier than this then it will not be a problem to spay her now - surely that's the better option ?


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

Bijou said:


> I'm confused - if she is too early in her pregnancy to be scanned then for goodness sake get her spayed ! - if she is too far along to be spayed then get her scanned - whats the problem ? - if your own vet won't do it then find one that will - (my bitches are scanned at 3 weeks) - if she is earlier than this then it will not be a problem to spay her now - surely that's the better option ?


maybe she doesnt want her sprayed just yet.

shes going back in a week, for another look and possibly a scan. her signs of pregnancy need to be more prominant.

Great news Daisy, hope she continues to become more confident


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Can they not x-ray her?


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

X-ray would be an option at a push but she needs to be further along to see the spines of the puppies.
We are going away to the cotswolds next week for a couple of nights and will be straight at the vets door on return, its nice for her to be having some stress free settle in time at the moment, without all the stress of 'is she, isnt she?' etc.
The vet is happy to see her and make a decision when we come back from our break, we can book her in for a scan then, and see if she is/isnt pregnant, if she isnt we will spay her and operate on her eye as well so she has a lot to be done as and when the time comes.
She is safe and well cared for here, and growing in confidence every day and that is the main thing at the moment.
If she is pregnant then we have a different issue to consider but thats not to decide until we know for sure.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Bijou said:


> I'm confused - if she is too early in her pregnancy to be scanned then for goodness sake get her spayed ! - if she is too far along to be spayed then get her scanned - whats the problem ? - if your own vet won't do it then find one that will - (my bitches are scanned at 3 weeks) - if she is earlier than this then it will not be a problem to spay her now - surely that's the better option ?


I do understand this in relation to you personally, but please try to be less abbrasive, there is no rush to get everything done yesterday, the main thing is that she is now safe and under the care of the rescue and myself.

She may well be too early in her pregnancy (if she is pg) to be scanned, but that doesnt necessarily mean that this is the chance to have her spayed and terminate the pregnancy.
We all have differing opinions, and im sure our opinions are the right ones for us but please remember that everyone is different in their opinions and life is never black and white.
I dont mean to offend anyone, as this is a wonderful and really resourceful forum full of great people and lots of knowledge, but our opinions are just that, and im here to find support, knowledge and chat, not have abbrasive opinions thrown at me, im not stupid, I have my own wealth of knowledge from life too and most importantly the welfare of my dogs are the most important thing to me, thats why I commit so much of my life to working in rescue.
Nuff said, please keep the thread nice and calm!


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Heres a couple of pictures of the very lovely Tilly,


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

she is very lovely indeed


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## crubeenette (Mar 23, 2010)

What a little sweetie! Good for you for rescuing her. It's terrible to think of the poor wee thing all alone on the streets :frown:


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thank you,
It makes me feel so sad to think that too, she was so nervous of us inside the house at first, she would just cower if we went near her, so I dread to think what had happened to the poor little lady.
She is gaining trust and confidence every day, her little tail never stops wagging at the moment!! She adores snuggling up ont he sofa for a sleep and a snore!!


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

What have the rescue suggested? Do they expect fosterers to make these medical decisions for themselves? I'm just curious, I haven't fostered (yet), but I thought that they would make the decisions. 

Can the vet do a blood test to check for pregnancy if he's not prepared to scan?


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Aww Tilly is scrumptious and its lovely to hear she is settling in and responding so well. Must warm your heart to see it - it certainly does mine, just to hear it :lol:
Give Tilly a big hug from me xx


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hi There,
The rescue will be really supportive and any decisions would be made after hearing my assessment and thoughts and discussing everything in detail to come to a decision, they know what has been discussed with the vets and will wait to hear what the vet says from me when she is seen next, and we go from there, the support is always there and I really couldnt fault anyone, we are all volunteers so it really does renew my faith in human kindness that so many people put so much time in for the dogs,when there is so many horrid stories in life.
If you do ever foster, it is so very rewarding, lots of sad stories about the dogs that come in, but to see the changes made is just amazing and so worth it, its great if you have a real passion for dogs as I learn so much about them from each individual case/situation/ I really do enjoy it. And its really nice to be updated when the little shy scruffy dog that lived in my house for a couple of months is with his/her new family confident and happy.

Anyway im rambling!
The vet will scan after seen next time, the vet felt that if she IS pregnant then its early days and a scan would be more effective given a couple of weeks.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> She may well be too early in her pregnancy (if she is pg) to be scanned, but that doesnt necessarily mean that this is the chance to have her spayed and terminate the pregnancy.


why not ? ....I would have thought that making her go through an unplanned preganancy and birth plus the irresponsibility of bringing into the world yet more unwanted pups is by far the worst option - why not get her spayed now ?

you do not know her history or the history of the dog that mated her - the health and temperament of any resulting pups will be entirely unknown - and just how many small white terriers are there already on rescue ?

..or are you planning to let her go ahead with the pregnancy if she IS in whelp ? ..and if so why ?


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hi Bijou,
There is currently no decision to make as the vet is erring towards the idea that it may be a phantom pregnancy anyway so until we know for sure we cannot make a decision-there is nothing to decide.

There is a VERY short window of opportunity regarding spaying a bitch that may be pregnant, and it has to be timed precisely for the vet to be happy to do it, there is also the moral dilema for some (not all people) so whilst you feel that this is the best thing to do, some people may for many reasons be very against this, please try to remember that we are all different in our beliefs.

Life is not always so black and white, and while you feel that it is completely irresponsible to bring more unwanted pups into the world, we as a rescue are just trying to do the best that we can with the situation we have.
All of our dogs that come in are neautered or spayed, and please try to remember that we are all VOLUNTARY workers at the rescue who rely on fundraising to help these dogs in our own homes, not kennels, so there isnt really alot of irresponsible behaviour going on from any of us in all honesty, and I certainly dont go to bed at night worrying about how responsible I am an an individual, nor how irresponsible the rescue is. I am more likely to be thinking ''thank goodness this little dog isnt wandering the streets (query) pregnant and alone'' where she may be pregnant and have the pups in a bush somewhere.

IF there are pups we will deal with that situation there and then.
There are sadly many pregnant dogs that come into rescue, the rescue can only be there for the mum and pups and then find the best home for all involved at the end of the day, I am not aware of any rescue that terminates the pregnancy of pregnant dogs that come in.

AND PLEASE remember its not US that are irresponsible for being here for the dog/pups in the given situation (and if there indeed are pups).
but the people who brought this pretty little dog, didnt spay/vaccinate/care for her then dumped her out in the street to fend for herself.

I think that this conversation needs to be ended now between us Bijou, our opinions are indeed OUR opinions, and im certainly not here to be called irresponsible, maybe you should spend a day in my life and then come back and tell me how irresponsible you feel after devoting your time between 4 rescue dogs, driving for the rescue, being a mum, a childrens intensive care nurse part time, oh and volunteering for a national pain charity where I share my experiences of the surgeries I went through having my spine bolted together in various places.
Me Irresponsible????
NUFF SAID!


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

well said daisy. bijou you need to keep your opinions to yourself, sorry for getting involved but it angers me, for people to come in and start telling people whats best for other peoples pets.  take note bijou !


Daisy looks like shes getting on well, hope you have a good holiday. wishing you both well.


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks SO much Holly, it means alot. xx


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I thought it was a bit harsh too and was going to add my thoughts but stepped back not wanting to cause conflict.
I'm sure there is a kinder way of putting things across altho I always find the written word a darned nuisance at times :lol:

It's an awful situation poor Tilly has found herself in and all credit to you Daisy for taking her on and doing so much for her. Whatever the outcome she will be loved and cared for as she deserves and without your time and effort that would never have happened. As for pups, I think the thing has always been to wait and see if there are any and then cross that bridge.

We can only politely offer opinions, suggestions and support. 
Stating things abruptly will only stop others asking for help. I know I would think twice if I thought I would be chastised.

Another big kiss and cuddle for Tilly (X)


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

ah well - what do I know ? ...I can only say it as I see it - my hubby works for WSPA and deals with the problems of stray dogs world wide - there are many many occasions when he and his team of vets have spayed pregnant bitches - if done in early pregnancy it is no more traumatic than a routine spay and ensures that more pups are not added to the huge number already on rescue - but each to their own - opting to 'wait and see' is not the path that I would have chosen but then again it's not my decision !


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## daisy34 (Dec 5, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ah well - what do I know ? ...I can only say it as I see it - my hubby works for WSPA and deals with the problems of stray dogs world wide - there are many many occasions when he and his team of vets have spayed pregnant bitches - if done in early pregnancy it is no more traumatic than a routine spay and ensures that more pups are not added to the huge number already on rescue - but each to their own - opting to 'wait and see' is not the path that I would have chosen but then again it's not my decision !


Thats fair enough, but please try and remember that we CANT spay this bitch safely as we DONT know if she has tied or not and the date if so.
We have NO choice but to wait and see at the moment. There will not be a vet here that is willing to terminate.
Yes there ARE alot of dogs is rescue and I can see your point about unwanted pups, but these pups are not unwanted by us, in the same way that Tilly is not unwanted by us but by her previous owners.
IF she does have pups then they will be homed by people properly and sensibly under contract, unlike some of the bred pups that are out there.
It is not my moral place in life to play god, and pregnancy termination is not something that ethically in THIS situation I would be comfortable with at all, im not saying that its wrong, just that its not necessarily right in this instance thats all.

It isnt the perfect situation, but then no dogs situation in dog rescue is perfect and I think that it is much more beneficial to concentrate on the positive things that we ARE doing in this given case.
The mum is safe warm and loved, the puppies (that may not exist) will be safe warm and loved, and then the mummy and puppies will all be re-homed where they will all be spayed/neutered, wanted and loved.

Thanks so much to Heidis Mum and the others who have sent their love to lovely Tilly! she has just got in from a lovely long walk in the wind and rain, and she had a lovely run around with the other 3 a few times, she is a little cracker!! :001_wub:


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

Bijou said:


> ah well - what do I know ? ...I can only say it as I see it - my hubby works for WSPA and deals with the problems of stray dogs world wide - there are many many occasions when he and his team of vets have spayed pregnant bitches - if done in early pregnancy it is no more traumatic than a routine spay and ensures that more pups are not added to the huge number already on rescue - but each to their own - opting to 'wait and see' is not the path that I would have chosen but then again it's not my decision !


your 'hubby' might, but your not in daisy situation so 'what do you know?'

Daisy is right, im sure (like she said) have willing owners for the pups.

if she is pregnant;

spaying a dog like daisy could be traumatic, aborting pups upsets any animal, Tilly will know she's pregnant, and will not understand why shes now not. dogs have feelings to, its the same to an animal as it is to a human.

Daisy is more than capable, so watch what you say next time.



> she has just got in from a lovely long walk in the wind and rain, and she had a lovely run around with the other 3 a few times, she is a little cracker!!


aww bless


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

daisy34 said:


> Hi There,
> The rescue will be really supportive and any decisions would be made after hearing my assessment and thoughts and discussing everything in detail to come to a decision, they know what has been discussed with the vets and will wait to hear what the vet says from me when she is seen next, and we go from there, the support is always there and I really couldnt fault anyone, we are all volunteers so it really does renew my faith in human kindness that so many people put so much time in for the dogs,when there is so many horrid stories in life.
> If you do ever foster, it is so very rewarding, lots of sad stories about the dogs that come in, but to see the changes made is just amazing and so worth it, its great if you have a real passion for dogs as I learn so much about them from each individual case/situation/ I really do enjoy it. And its really nice to be updated when the little shy scruffy dog that lived in my house for a couple of months is with his/her new family confident and happy.


Thanks for that. it certainly does sound very rewarding, and something i would like to do when the time is right. I didn't know how the decision making was made, I guess i assumed that the rescue would decide and you just had to carry out what ever they decided.


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## Holly Holmes (Mar 6, 2010)

Hi,

do you know if shes pregnant yet??

hope shes doing well


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