# Discussion Starter...



## LittleTyke (Apr 14, 2011)

This doesn't reflect my personal circumstances and isn't a 'get at' aimed at anyone on here, just a discussion starter and I'm interested to read other people's views.

What price do you think is 'acceptable' or 'correct' for moggies and unregistered pedegrees? (Assuming for the sake of this that they are different).

Reading a few different posts has got me thinking...

If an accidental preganacy of a moggie is treated correctly i.e. mom is health checked, babies are vet checked, well socialised, wormed, fleaed, fed correctly, vaccinated, sold at 13 weeks, does this make it acceptable to charge a high price for a moggie (say £150?)

Equally, if someone breeds a non-registered pedigree where both parents heritage and health status is known, and all gccf regulations are followed, does this allow for a price of say £250 (these are based on ads i've seen)

I sometimes see ads and think that sounds like a huge amount of money for what your buying but then equally I think that seeing a bigger price tag on a moggie may put off certain 'dodgy' buyers and so in that way its a good idea?

What do you guys all think?
(Once again, this is nothing personal to me or anyone else on here, just a chance for us all to express out thoughts and ideas!)


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

I think this is a brill question 

I have a litter of moggies at the moment, and I was hoping to sell them because I think people who really want a cat would be willing to pay something for it. I don't just want to do a 'free to good home' thing, i think thats cruel and u never know what home they're going to. 

but a lot of people refuse to pay for a moggie, whether its vaccinated or not. I want to send mine with kitten packs etc, and 2 of my friends who are having one have said they're perfectly fine with paying for the kitten 

I have had one friend turn their nose up at paying tho, so she obviously doesn't want one enough, im not going to say 'oh well, here you go have one' when im doing whats best for them. I definately wont make any money on the kittens because mum needed a c-section, but i dont care as long as the people they go to are nice. I think a price on a kitten deters a lot of unworthy people from getting one.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

My parents sold their puppies for £20 at the vets urging in the mid 90's, their reasoning being that if someone is willing to pay for them they are more likely to look after them. The vet told them about how people will take free kittens and use them for blooding dogs for dog fights or other cruel activities. That's why I payed £20 for Gratch when I got her when she was free to a good home and why I payed £50 for Kerry (breeders price). I think your typical moggie should go for £30 to deter shady people and more for the better the standard they were raised to. If I were to home my kittens I would charge £50 at 13 weeks with both sets of vaccs and have a neuter voucher set up at the vet with part payed.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

ideally i would like them to go to people i know, and i dont want to advertise them out. cant believe people would do that with kittens for the dogs, but i have heard of it 

if i have to keep the majority of the litter until i find suitable owners i will do


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I wouldn't agree with turning a profit on a moggy litter, and I think making a profit in general on properly raised litters is rare.

If I was paying I would be happy to pay the costs for the vaccinations as part of my kittens price (assuming I was getting said kittens at 12 weeks) Assuming that comes out at roughly £50, that would be what I would pay.

I wouldn't agree with paying for their extra costs such as food and litter in the price of my kitten. I would expect those costs to be met by the breeder in this case.

£150 for a moggy is insane and unethical in my opinion.


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

I wouldnt buy a kitten from a moggy breeder however well looked after they have been as I would want to give a kitten in a rescue centre the opportunity for having a loving home, its just a shame that rescue centres here won't let mg have one as i live in a flat.

I also wouldn't pay for an unregistered pedigree as the reasons that they unregistered put me off and I wouldn't want to line the pockets of someone out to make money.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I wouldn't agree with turning a profit on a moggy litter, and I think making a profit in general on properly raised litters is rare.
> 
> If I was paying I would be happy to pay the costs for the vaccinations as part of my kittens price (assuming I was getting said kittens at 12 weeks) Assuming that comes out at roughly £50, that would be what I would pay.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, although in my area, if i microchipped as well it would come to approx £70 for everything 

Just wondered, and this isn't a dig or trying to start an argument, i am genuinely interested, if £150ish for a moggy is unethical, why are pedigrees priced so highly? I would never charge or expect to pay that for a moggy, although i have seen some at aver £100 advertised, just wondering whats different  (please please dont anyone take offence it is a genuine question)


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Health tests
Stud fees
Registration
A general assumption of a higher standard of care


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

dom85 said:


> I wouldnt buy a kitten from a moggy breeder however well looked after they have been as I would want to give a kitten in a rescue centre the opportunity for having a loving home, its just a shame that rescue centres here won't let mg have one as i live in a flat.
> 
> I also wouldn't pay for an unregistered pedigree as the reasons that they unregistered put me off and I wouldn't want to line the pockets of someone out to make money.


I wasn't allowed one either, im 50m too close to a road (they stated i had to be 150, i was only 100m away ) rescues need to be a bit more understanding if they genuinely want to rehome cats. Lots of cats are indoor, so why would it be a prob if you live in a flat? you can give it a loving home and I dont see its a problem that it would stay inside


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Health tests
> Stud fees
> Registration
> A general assumption of a higher standard of care


oh right, if someone wanted a pedigree cat, but wanted it as a pet, not for shows or breeding, would they be able to ask for it to be unregistered? I would love a bengal, but just because i like them, i think they're beautiful, but I wouldn't be bothered for it to be registered because it would be a pet, neutered and I wouldn't go to shows.

Would that be up to the breeder, and if so would a price drop be included?

again genuinely interested, as I cant afford anything like a bengal, even though i would love one


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Registration is like £6-12 so not much of a drop


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## SashaXx (Sep 3, 2010)

On my local forum theres always people selling moggy kittens usually around £25 and then you see the same ad a few days later but the price lowered 

Some even struggle to give them away 

Personally I wouldn't pay over a £100 for a moggy! No offence to moggys though!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

IL B HONEST ... i would have liked to get a rescue kitten... but they wont allow people to have a kitten if you dont have a garden...

but dispite the fact that i dont have a garden........ my cat WOULD NOT be going outside anyway so i fail to see the difference!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

ive seen pure white kittens for £170 and blue kittens for £200! no papers, no pedigree, no injections nothing!..... 

pure profit... for a rarer colour than... tabby or black


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Registration is a *very * small part of the cost of raising a kitten. £5 for the litter plus £9 per kitten if you have a breeding prefix.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

ohhh, when we were thinking about getting a dog (while ago now) there were a few offering different prices for pups with/without papers. they were putting a £100 diff on the pups. Is it cheaper to register cats? 

n no i wouldn't pay £100 for a moggy, im hoping i can sell mine for around £40 but only to friends, dont want to have to advertise, n i want to be updated on how they're doing, I know a lot of pedigree breeders have this with their litters and it'll be lovely to see how big they've gotten and how they look when they're older


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

When we adopted Raffles from the RSPCA 7 years ago, the adoption fee was £45 (I think). He was 8 months old, I think younger kittens were more. I suppose that's gone up now, but for that he came checked over, neutered, chipped and vaccinated (we had to take him back for the final one). 

I don't expect for a moment they covered their costs of keeping him (he was there for 3 weeks before we adopted him), though vaccinations,neutering/chipping would be done by their in-house vet, they wouldn't be paying the full vet's fees. 

I agree totally with paying something for them (not to moggy breeders though). If someone expects the animal to be given to them for nothing, it makes me wonder if they will then be prepared to go to the vet and pay for vaccinations, neutering, etc.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I wouldn't agree with turning a profit on a moggy litter, and I think making a profit in general on properly raised litters is rare.
> 
> If I was paying I would be happy to pay the costs for the vaccinations as part of my kittens price (assuming I was getting said kittens at 12 weeks) Assuming that comes out at roughly £50, that would be what I would pay.
> 
> ...


I agree entirely, why should the buyer of a kitten from an "accidental litter" be expected to pay for the owners negligence or folly :nono:

I would only expect to pay for vaccinations and micro chip.

I would run a mile from anyone breeding moggies on purpose :tongue_smilie:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I wouldn't agree with turning a profit on a moggy litter, and I think making a profit in general on properly raised litters is rare.
> 
> If I was paying I would be happy to pay the costs for the vaccinations as part of my kittens price (assuming I was getting said kittens at 12 weeks) Assuming that comes out at roughly £50, that would be what I would pay.
> 
> ...


So for a ped you would be willing to pay for the food and litter in the price of your kitten??


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I agree entirely, why should the buyer of a kitten from an "accidental litter" be expected to pay for the owners negligence or folly :nono:
> 
> I would only expect to pay for vaccinations and micro chip.
> 
> I would run a mile from anyone breeding moggies on purpose :tongue_smilie:


but why shouldn't they be asked to pay? if, assuming the owner has done everthing a pedigree breeder does, and the kittens are happy, healthy, well socialised and confident kittens,weaned and lit trained i dont see why a small amount (prob between £40-£60) should be asked of someone, its a big gap from that small amount to the approx £400 you'd be expected to pay for a ped, and the owner of the kittens could still be out of pocket and not selling to make a profit, just to make sure their kittens go to good homes 

i definately dont agree with moggie breeding though  i suppose i am going on myself as a person and how i have cared for my kittens and queen


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

loz83 said:


> *ohhh, when we were thinking about getting a dog (while ago now) there were a few offering different prices for pups with/without papers. they were putting a £100 diff on the pups. Is it cheaper to register cats? *
> 
> n no i wouldn't pay £100 for a moggy, im hoping i can sell mine for around £40 but only to friends, dont want to have to advertise, n i want to be updated on how they're doing, I know a lot of pedigree breeders have this with their litters and it'll be lovely to see how big they've gotten and how they look when they're older


Don't know if there's a difference in cost of registering cats to dogs but when looking for a new breeding girl several breeders I spoke to were prepared to offer me a kitten at £100 more than the cost of a pet. Now I understand that not all queens would be suitable to breed from just not all are suitable for showing but I cannot see why they should charge so much more to put a girl on the active register. The breeder I bought Mai Tai from and the one I bought Rosie from did not charge anymore than the price they would ask for any kitten. Rosie's breeder even had to change her registration for me at a cost of around £15 and did not charge me for that.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> Don't know if there's a difference in cost of registering cats to dogs but when looking for a new breeding girl several breeders I spoke to were prepared to offer me a kitten at £100 more than the cost of a pet. Now I understand that not all queens would be suitable to breed from just not all are suitable for showing but I cannot see why they should charge so much more to put a girl on the active register. The breeder I bought Mai Tai from and the one I bought Rosie from did not charge anymore than the price they would ask for any kitten. Rosie's breeder even had to change her registration for me at a cost of around £15 and did not charge me for that.


It was £12.00 per pup for a breeder to reg a pup with the kc..


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> So for a ped you would be willing to pay for the food and litter in the price of your kitten??


Yep, for its care up until I got it, and getting it to the point that I could have it, yep I would  I would be happy for those costs to contribute to the cost of my cat, as it would have been a well thought out mating with health tested parents.

I am happy for ethical breeders to 'break even' on litters. Maybe I'm harsh but I do not think the same for moggy breeders. I do think there should be a negative aspect of it in order to curb the numbers, and I am not going to cover the costs of their mistake.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

loz83 said:


> oh right, if someone wanted a pedigree cat, but wanted it as a pet, not for shows or breeding, would they be able to ask for it to be unregistered? I would love a bengal, but just because i like them, i think they're beautiful, but I wouldn't be bothered for it to be registered because it would be a pet, neutered and I wouldn't go to shows.
> 
> Would that be up to the breeder, and if so would a price drop be included?
> 
> again genuinely interested, as I cant afford anything like a bengal, even though i would love one


why wouldnt you want the paperwork, that Proves your is what it is! Plus they would only knock £9 off so whats the point?



loz83 said:


> ohhh, when we were thinking about getting a dog (while ago now) there were a few offering different prices for pups with/without papers. they were putting a £100 diff on the pups. Is it cheaper to register cats?
> 
> n no i wouldn't pay £100 for a moggy, im hoping i can sell mine for around £40 but only to friends, dont want to have to advertise, n i want to be updated on how they're doing, I know a lot of pedigree breeders have this with their litters and it'll be lovely to see how big they've gotten and how they look when they're older


dunno why dog breeders do that, IVe seen them offer them £250 difference, but it only costs a tenner to register them!!!

*****

un-registered = not a real pedigree / crossed with anything and made up to abe a pedgiree / no health tests / no vacs / no papers / coud be mum/dad/daughter/son mating / could have bought as a pet from lines that had health problems hewnce not allowed to breed and they bred it anyway / bad quality not a good example / no vet check / money all profit as they go so early and do nothing for them or you.

So ID rather spend a extra £100 and go to a good registered breeder


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

Jansheff said:


> When we adopted Raffles from the RSPCA 7 years ago, the adoption fee was £45 (I think). He was 8 months old, I think younger kittens were more. I suppose that's gone up now, but for that he came checked over, neutered, chipped and vaccinated (we had to take him back for the final one).
> 
> I don't expect for a moment they covered their costs of keeping him (he was there for 3 weeks before we adopted him), though vaccinations,neutering/chipping would be done by their in-house vet, they wouldn't be paying the full vet's fees.
> 
> I agree totally with paying something for them (not to moggy breeders though). If someone expects the animal to be given to them for nothing, it makes me wonder if they will then be prepared to go to the vet and pay for vaccinations, neutering, etc.


Oh if I had got a moggy from rescue then I wouldn't have problem paying a fee as of course there are costs involved in raising healthy kittens with all the vaccines, flea, worming etc and I think its more appropriate that my money helps a charity that picks up the pieces after bad 'breeders'.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

loz83 said:


> ohhh, when we were thinking about getting a dog (while ago now) there were a few offering different prices for pups with/without papers. they were putting a £100 diff on the pups. Is it cheaper to register cats?


steer well clear of breeders who do this, they most definately are Not reputable ones!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> un-registered = not a real pedigree


Depends what you mean by pedigree. A pedigree is nothing more than a known history of the cat's antecedents. A 'pedigree' cat has come to mean a 'recognised' breed with a known history of the cat's antecedents. Many breeds recognised now weren't at one time.

As to the cost of a moggie kitten. For me a fair price is tied closely to what it has cost to raise just like any prize pedigree. People talk about papers and snap tests etc. They are nothing compared with my costs for food, cat litter, electricity, heating, vaccinations, my phone bill, coffee and biscuits for kitten visits etc. etc. etc. Most of my major costs (barring stud fees) happen AFTER the age when most moggie kittens have been sold. If someone has put the same as I do into a litter of kittens I'd have no problem with that expenditure being reflected in an asking price.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

what would you suggest is a fair price for a moggy then, assuming they have raised the kittens well and cared for them properly?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

It also contravenes the GCCF guidelines and regulations for breeders to offer GCCF registered or intended to be GCCF reg kittens cheaper without papers. People have been disciplined for selling kittens without correct papers.

I fail to see why an ethical breeder would not registered their kittens - in the scheme of rearing the kittens it's a relatively minor expense compared to others!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> what would you suggest is a fair price for a moggy then, assuming they have raised the kittens well and cared for them properly?


What age are these kittens? Have they had a full course of vaccinations? If so was FeLV included as that adds considerably to the cost? Was the mum up to date on vaccinations? On finding the mum was pregnant did the owner then test her for FeLV/FIV and keep her in throughout the pregnancy?

There isn't a 'one size fits all' answer as my whole point is that it's reasonable for the price of *any* kitten to reflect the costs involved. There are very few expenses until the kittens start to wean - after that the costs increase exponentially with time.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> People have been disciplined for selling kittens without correct papers


Mainly not providing a 3 gen pedigree cert. The GCCF allow for a litter to be declared rather than registered individually. There is no requirement to register though I do agree that there's little reason not to.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

loz83 said:


> what would you suggest is a fair price for a moggy then, assuming they have raised the kittens well and cared for them properly?


The cost of the vaccinations owners have given and microchip costs, as I would be having that done anyway.

I would NOT buy from anyone breeding moggies to sell though, but if I heard of someone needing homes and offerred to take one, this is all I would give them ... if they ask anymore they are greedy beggars and cheeky too, expecting new owners to fund their mistakes


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> The cost of the vaccinations owners have given and microchip costs, as I would be having that done anyway.
> 
> I would NOT buy from anyone breeding moggies to sell though, but if I heard of someone needing homes and offerred to take one, this is all I would give them ... if they ask anymore they are greedy beggars and cheeky too, expecting new owners to fund their mistakes


Breeding moggies to sell, fine don't buy them. There is a difference between breeding to sell and selling an accidental litter however with your wording implying that they are deliberately bred with the intent to make money. I do think there should be a deterrent cost attatched to moggies to try put off some unsavoury people (blooding dogs for fights) but obviously not enough that a profit could ever be made and if they did right by the kittens they wouldn't even break even. Like I said, if I had been homing my kittens I would have kept them until 13 weeks, had them vaccinated and part payed their spay/neuter (already done) and charged £50. There is no way I would have broken even there, essential points are covered and £50 isn't something people will usually cough up on a whim.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

i would say £50 is about right personally i wouldn't pay more than that


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> if they ask anymore they are greedy beggars and cheeky too, expecting new owners to fund their mistakes


If the owner, having realised the consequences of not getting a girl spayed, was prepared to keep kittens for 12-13 weeks and vaccinate etc. I would be prepared to be a little more generous. Even more so if they'd got that mum spayed asap. I feel that those who learn from genuine mistakes shouldn't be penalised.

The business of deliberately 'breeding' moggies is a different issue for me. The word 'breeding' doesn't fit with a free roaming, entire girl happening to get pregnant.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Breeding moggies to sell, fine don't buy them. There is a difference between breeding to sell and selling an accidental litter however with your wording implying that they are deliberately bred with the intent to make money. I do think there should be a deterrent cost attatched to moggies to try put off some unsavoury people (blooding dogs for fights) but obviously not enough that a profit could ever be made and if they did right by the kittens they wouldn't even break even. Like I said, if I had been homing my kittens I would have kept them until 13 weeks, had them vaccinated and part payed their spay/neuter (already done) and charged £50. There is no way I would have broken even there, essential points are covered and £50 isn't something people will usually cough up on a whim.


Don't get your point, you are just agreeing with me? I said £50.00 is all I would pay, I would not expect those with "accidental litters" to "break even" why should I?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> The business of deliberately 'breeding' moggies is a different issue for me. The word 'breeding' doesn't fit with a free roaming, entire girl happening to get pregnant.


I agree, I see (good) "breeding" as something done with thought and the health, happiness and welfare uppermost in the breeders mind.

I see litters from the "free roaming, entire girl" as neglect, stupidity and something that can not only be easily prevented but remedied if the owner has any sense. Just my opinion


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I see litters from the "free roaming, entire girl" as neglect, stupidity and something that can not only be easily prevented but remedied if the owner has any sense.


Of course it can be prevented and prevention is by far the best option. Remedied - not really sure what you mean. By the time such an owner realises their cat is pregnant I don't think spaying is an option, far safer to let the cat have the kittens.

Deliberately producing kittens from random street matings is reprehensible but there are owners who simply need a little advice and encouragement having got it wrong. Too hard a line can frighten them off from getting it right in future.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

loz83 said:


> I think this is a brill question
> 
> I have a litter of moggies at the moment, and I was hoping to sell them because I think people who really want a cat would be willing to pay something for it. I don't just want to do a 'free to good home' thing, i think thats cruel and u never know what home they're going to.
> 
> ...


if this were me i would gladly give them away free to friends that i know and trust rather than sell them, to me knowing they have a safe loving home is the most important thing, twice i have been offered well bred sibe puppy free of charge by good friends in the breed! and ive also been offered a different breed puppy from a very good friend of mine because they know i would give them the best life possible and that is the most important thing to them!

just to make myself clear i dont believe in advertising any creature free, this only applies to people i KNOW would give the animal a great life,

i also know that people who pay lots of money for an animal can turn about to be terrible owners, to protect animals people have to do more than just 'sell' them!


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> i also know that people who pay lots of money for an animal can turn about to be terrible owners, to protect animals people have to do more than just 'sell' them!


Very true, but it does reduce again the potential of being used for things like dog fighting or snake food.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

havoc said:


> Mainly not providing a 3 gen pedigree cert. The GCCF allow for a litter to be declared rather than registered individually. There is no requirement to register though I do agree that there's little reason not to.


If you do not register the kitten then you must provide the buyer with the appropriate papers to register the kitten themselves ie mating certificate and pedigree. Of course if you do this then the buyer can put the kitten on active against your wishes.

There have been a spate of cases recently where people have been disciplined and fined for selling an unregistered kitten and not providing a buyer with appropriate papers to register the kitten themselves.


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