# "It's Cruel to Keep Him Alive"



## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and am just introducing myself informally, as I don't know how long I'm going to be active on the forum (I'm not much of a forum-er). I'm Karalina and I have a dog called Myles. He's a five year old Staffordshire Bull Terrier/Dobermann Pinscher (he just looks like a fat Doby) and is the product of an accidental breeding. I got him from an old colleague who was a little lenient when it came to her dogs. I'd just moved out of my family home and was living alone for the first time so got Myles to give me some company at home. 

He's got separation anxiety, he's aggressive to other dogs, aggressive to people, he's bitten me a few times, bitten trainers, a behaviourist refused to come through the front door because he could see Myles in the kitchen and we're currently working with a local trainer called Steve who's pretty much just humouring us. 

On the plus side he's constant company as I can't go anywhere without him or else he'll scream the house down and annoy the neighbours and make me homeless. I've been working on his SA since he was about 6 months old and it improved a little bit in the first year but has come to a stand still. 

I've been told to have him euthanized before but was always discouraged by vets or other owners I'd meet. That whole "a dog is for life not just for Christmas" thing messes with your head a bit, too. I've been dealing with Myles for years and it's hard to judge his quality of life and I don't know if keeping him alive is selfish. 

I've had a fair few people tell me it's nasty to keep him alive over the years, coming from trainers, friends and just dog-y people I meet and speak to about him. I've had that type of comment a lot recently and it's messed up my "there's no such thing as a last chance when it comes to animals" belief.

I'm not asking for advice on how to change his behaviour (he's aggressive and I wouldn't expect anyone not qualified to give advice, to give advice) I'm just wondering what everyone's personal opinions are regarding the "it's cruel to keep him alive" type comments. I used to have a strong opinion rejecting that type of claim but having Myles is making me look at it from another angle.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

For me it would boil down to quality of life for not only the dog, but also yourself. Owning a dog is supposed to be a pleasure (most of the time) and not dictate your life in a negative way. Personally I draw the line at a dog biting the hand that feeds it in all but an accident. Managing a dog that is dog and human aggressive is one thing, but also a danger to myself? I'm afraid I could not live with a dog like that.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Not so much 'its cruel to keep him alive', but more that he is actually a liability, and if not managed properly, could land you being prosecuted. I do sympathise, as Im sure you love him dearly. Its a question of whether or not you can manage him, especially around other people, and the life style sacrifices involved.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thank you labradrk & Ang2, I understand. His estimated lifespan is around 10 years and if I look at it like that then I can cope fine for the remaining 5 years. If I look at it from the other side then that's 5 more years of him being unhappy (if he is). 

The first time he bit anybody was my mum when he was 7 months old and since then he's been muzzled around company. He hasn't tried to bite any of my friends/family since my mum, but he's a pretty big dog and it's not worth the risk. The people he's bitten have been trainers (and one vet who thought he was a canine guru) who've wanted me to take the muzzle off, and he'll try to bite me occasionally (redirecting) but mostly I can dodge it and get him under control before he makes contact.

The trainer I'm with now has almost been bitten twice when we first started training together and that's actually where Myles first bit me. Now Steve lets me keep Myles on his muzzle, mainly because he doesn't see hope for improvement and doesn't see the point in risking injuries when nothing good will come out of it. 

He seems happy enough at home but it's hard to tell if that's enough. Even when he's trying to make lunch out of another dog he seems pretty pleased with himself. I think I can cope with him. I don't know how conscious dogs are about things like that. He's always been like this so will he even know the difference between being happy and being unhappy.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

What were the trainers doing to provoke getting bit? It sounds to me from what you've described 'a self confessed training guru' and others who have encouraged you to remove his muzzle that perhaps they haven't been the best of trainers. But of course I haven't experienced their training so can only speculate. 

Obviously you have issues with your dog, but as long as you're able to manage well it's no one else's business what you do. I understand what you mean about worrying if they're happy. I've often pondered that question myself, even with my non issuey dog. However I think if there are things that Myles finds pleasure in doing, whether that be eating, playing, or being totally alone with just you, then I'd think he's happy.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

You know, I once rescued a 15 year old dog who had had a terrible life, having been kept in a cellar for most of his life. He too was aggressive, but only when chastised. He hadn't been neutered, and given his age, the vet thought it was futile. He would wander about the house and cock his leg to pee on the sofa. When I tried to grab his collar to take him outside, he would bite me. He was a temperamental old git  He also had a very loving side. He spent a year with me before going to Rainbow Bridge.


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

I have a dog with human and dog aggression, and a bite history, and wouldn't say that that alone makes for an unhappy dog that must be put to sleep. 

That being said Shadow hasn't bitten me, and I trust him enough not to worry about that happening in any normal situation - not saying it would never happen, but you can't say any dog however friendly would never bite given the right circumstances. 

Were you only bitten when he was redirecting on to you? Do you trust him enough and understand his behaviour enough to feel confident in handling him? 

If so then that's the best start. 

Out of interest what sort of methods were the behaviourists and trainers using when the dog bit them? 

Just wondering if you need somebody with a completely different approach to come in and take a look. 

For me, the dog should have a chance if the following is the case:

1) The owner is confident in their ability to handle the dog in all situations
2) The owner is able to safely manage the dog to prevent accidents
3) the owner makes sure to get liability insurance (I have with my own through dogs trust - if you become a member you get this and all for £25 a year, well worth it in my mind)

4) and this is the most important one in my mind, and makes or breaks the decision for keeping the dog alive or not in my opinion - the dog shows pleasure in several things in life, the dog is not a total nervous wreck who is unable to settle or feel comfortable in the surroundings the owner can offer, basically the dog can be a dog - perhaps he can't interact with strange people and animals, but he will go somewhere to exercise (on lead and muzzled does count, as does a run around private fields or enclosed safe space if walks are not possible) and show interest in those surroundings. The dog enjoys the company of one person at the least and will play or sit with that person.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks. 

Dogloverlou, the "guru" was a vet I'd taken him to and I think he must have wanted to get bitten or just not believed me when I said he'd get bitten if the muzzle wasn't there. I double up on muzzles (nylon under Baskerville) so that Myles can't wind himself up by barking and so he can't nip through the end of the nylon one and the vet snapped them both off and was lucky not to get severely hurt. The trainers I actually searched for all practise positive training methods and avoid the aversive type of training and I found all of those through the first trainer I ever went to (who was recommended by a vet). 

I met Steve in the pub one day and he overheard me talking about Myles with a friend and invited me down to his training grounds. I hadn't actively looks for a trainer for about a year and a half before meeting Steve by mistake and figured I had nothing to lose. Steve uses a mix of positive/negative and it works a little bit (Myles hasn't tried to bite me since working with Steve) but neither of the methods I've tried have given us any decent results.

In regards to what the trainers were doing to get bitten, nothing. Myles doesn't like women and will normally try to attack when he sees them, but sometimes he can see the same woman twice and ignore her the first time and attack the second and vice versa. He can get closer to men without attacking but he will try with them as well. He ignores some of them and goes insane at others. The same with women, he can see the same man twice and react completely differently both times. 

catpud, I don't trust him at all, if he wasn't on a muzzle he would bite me when we're outside. In the house he's cornered me twice, once when I was putting him in his crate and the other time when I was opening the door. Outside if I keep walking when he wants to go somewhere else he'll get aggressive and if he wasn't on a muzzle he'd bite. When we see other dogs/people and he tries to attack, 9/10 times he'll redirect onto me and jump up trying to get my face. The first time he bit me was when he was really young and he started being aggressive toward a dog we were walking by and he chomped down on my arm (this was before I started muzzling him, before I knew he needed it). 

He doesn't try anything when we're in the house anymore unless I have guests in (but he's in a crate when they come over so who cares). I have to muzzle him before I let him out of the crate once the other people have left because he'll scout out the house trying to find the people and he'll sometimes nip me when he's doing that. 

I have taken him to the vet btw, as I thought he had a thyroid problem to start with because he was a bit overweight and he was balding around his neck but they can't find anything wrong with him. He had his brain scanned in case he had a tumour or anything but nothing showed up. His fur has grown back and his weight was just "puppy fat" and that's all gone now and just left a stocky body behind. 

His litter was unplanned but they weren't neglected and the parents are both friendly and well socialised. I've had dogs before and can't think of where I've gone wrong with him. I just feel bad for him.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I honestly don't think I could cope with a dog as bad as that. From what you have described, Im beginning to worry about your own safety, being that he is so unpredictable.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Dogloverlou, the "guru" was a vet I'd taken him to and I think he must have wanted to get bitten or just not believed me when I said he'd get bitten if the muzzle wasn't there. I double up on muzzles (nylon under Baskerville) so that Myles can't wind himself up by barking and so he can't nip through the end of the nylon one and the vet snapped them both off and was lucky not to get severely hurt. The trainers I actually searched for all practise positive training methods and avoid the aversive type of training and I found all of those through the first trainer I ever went to (who was recommended by a vet).
> 
> ...


Did you have a FULL thyroid panel done? The basic thyroid test doesn't look at everything it could, and low function can be a factor in aggression.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

He's had two tests done, the TSH (T4/T3) and then I realised it wasn't the full and requested the 6 panel test (T3/T3 antibodies/free T3, T4/free T4/T4 antibodies) afterwards.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...I double-up on muzzles - *nylon* [*tube or groomer's muzzle*], under a Baskerville basket-muzzle...
> so that Myles can't wind himself up by barking[/b] & can't nip through the end of the nylon one...


i would NOT do this -

* a groomer's muzzle is actually dangerous to dogs; i'd be thrilled if the dam*ed things were banned.
Stressed dogs need to PANT, & for that they need a PATENT AIRWAY - a groomer's tube holds the dog's
*mouth closed*, limiting their airway, & can not only cause a potentially-lethal high body-temp
to a stressed dog or even just on a warm day [60'F or even less, if it's sunny] that the dog can have a stroke,
heart failure, seizure, heatstroke or simple hyperthermia, & possibly organ damage [liver, kidney, etc].

Aftereffects of heat-stroke or heat-stress can be lifelong: deaf, blind, compromised organs, paralysis,
epilepsy, etc.

- Dogs need an OPEN airway to breathe properly; *there is every possibility that his lack of AIR is a large
contributing factor to his aggro*, as being unable to breathe freely as soon as he is stressed causes PANIC -
which feeds his defensive, furious behavior.

Get the tube-muzzle off, immediately; use the basket-muzzle alone. If he barks, he barks - so what?
Barking isn't fatal; a mouth TIED SHUT can be, & this is a health & safety issue.

If U are so determined that he never, ever bark, de-bark him. It's a straightforward surgical procedure,
it's much much MUCH safer & infinitely more humane than smothering him when he's stressed. I am not going
to mince words, as i find this appalling - i can't believe that any veterinarian anywhere would suggest this -
a nylon-tube PLUS a basket-muzzle, anytime he's muzzled! - is safe, humane, or anything but a real
hazard to the dog, & extremely INhumane.

I'm a certified vet's assistant, i have advanced 1st-Aid & other certificates, i've done nonhuman & human
nursing, & i am telling U plainly: that is not safe, it is not humane, & it needs to stop.

If YOUR vet told U this is acceptable - change vets, & *report her or him to the Board.* This is a clear
case of actual life-threatening advice, & that vet - or "those vets" - should be reprimanded, immediately.


mylesaminute said:


> I took him to the vet.. as I thought he had a *thyroid problem*... he was a bit overweight, ...balding
> around his neck, but *they can't find anything wrong with him*.
> 
> ...his [extra] weight was *just "puppy fat"* and that's all gone now...


How old was he when he had this so-called "puppy fat"?

I've seen dogs as young s 9-MO diagnosed with hypothyroidism, & it's rife in any number of breeds -
including Dobes, 1/2 his parentage.

Did the vet do a full [5 or 6 test] thyroid panel? Or just a few tests, or one test?

Did the vet send the sample off for proper analysis, or do the analysis in house, or send it locally -
to a nearby hospital, clinic, etc?

Were he mine, i'd repeat the thyroid test, doing ALL 5 or 6: *free* & *bound forms* of T3 & T4 -
that's 4 tests; plus TSH, Thyroid-Stimulating Hormone, & possibly ANA: Anti-Nuclear Antibody.
I would not let the vet talk me into skipping any; free & bound are floor & ceiling, we need the distance
BETWEEN them. ANA tells U if he's manufacturing hormone, then destroying it - an autoimmune problem.

Then i'd ship the specimens to 1 of 2 vet-labs in the USA for proper analysis: either Michigan State Univ,
with the world's largest database of breed-specific thyroid values, or Dodds' HemoPet labs; Dr Dodds has
specialized in bloodborne & autoimmune disorders in dogs for a quarter-century, plus.
Both labs enjoy global reputaions, & both receive samples from all ovr the world; they're the best.
No one else can do what they do; a shipping-fee is nothing, for what U get in return.

That blood specimen is worth its weight in gold, with proper analysis; without it, it's just a vial of blood.

If his results show *borderline low*, be prepared to talk to Ur vet about low-dose thyroid hormone, 
to see how he behaves WITH it. If his behavior improves over a 2 or 3 week period on thyroid-supplement,
it's reason enuf to tweak the dose & keep him on it for life; once the dose is adjusted, it's very, very cheap.

Dogs with hypothyroid are irritable; stuff that doesn't bother other dogs, or didn't USED to bother them,
does - in a big, big way. Thyroid supplement can make a big-enuf difference that owners think they are
living with a new dog; i'm not exaggerating, my heart-breed [Akita] is very prone, & dog's lives have been
saved by simple thyroid-pills.

Please do consider this; here in the USA, a 5- or 6-way thyroid panel runs about $85 to $100-USA.
If it saves him from his nightmares, it is - IMO, of course - well-worth it, & the minor cost of shipping.

I hope U find something to help Myles, & to improve Ur life, as well. U have spent a lot of time trying -
i can only hope that there is a real improvement. :thumbup1: DoG bless U both.
.
.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> and we're currently working with a local trainer called Steve who's pretty much just humouring us.
> 
> .


dunno why, but that made me laugh

i love the way you wrote your post, no fluff, straightforward, honest with your own situation.respects

also, your steve sounds real familiar to me
im probably way off on planet 9, but i got this little feeling we is local


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks. 

The vet never recommended the nylon muzzle. He told me muzzling was cruel right before he got bitten for removing the muzzle and trying to do his job. When Myles barks, he gets more stressed which makes his behaviour worse. If he's not able to work himself up further by barking then he's not as difficult and he calms down faster which is why I use the nylon muzzle and the Baskerville is so he can't nip through the end. His mouth is odd-shaped and the Baskerville muzzle doesn't prevent biting completely. Is there a better muzzle I can try? I've looked at the newer Baskerville that secures over the head and the cage comes around to his cheeks near enough but that pushes his teeth closer to the cage and he can bite through it so I sent it back. I'm using the original right now. All the muzzles I've used have been fitted by the manager of the store I bought them from. I feel bad for never looking into it but can you get custom-made muzzles so that it fits him?

He was 5-6 months when he was a bit fat. The vet did the 6 panel and the TSH and he's had x-rays as I thought he might have had a tumour (one of my friends' dogs had a tumour in her brain and it caused her to behave aggressively). He's had the 6 panel done twice (once when he was about a year and again in jan 2014). I didn't ask where the sample was sent, it wasn't done at the practise. It took around two weeks for the last sample to come back but I have no idea where it was sent. The second 6 panel test was done by a different vet to the first but the first and the TSH were done by the same vet. 

"I would not let the vet talk me into skipping any" lol. My vet charges £105 for a sedated claw trim, I don't think a vet has ever tried to talk me out of giving them more money. 

I don't remember how much the first two tests cost me but the last one was £209. I have heard of Dr. Jean Dodds but didn't think the vet would not check the bloodwork properly. It didn't occur to me before now that they haven't been reading it right. 

Roughly how long do you know it would take to get results back if I sent them to Jean Dodds? It took about 2 weeks in 2014 when we had the 6 panel re-done and I don't know where it was sent for analysis.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Tails and Trails said:


> im probably way off on planet 9, but i got this little feeling we is local


I'm over in Hertfordshire. If you do know him feel free to nonchalantly mention me so he knows I'm not just plodding along with Myles. :thumbup1:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

labradrk said:


> For me it would boil down to quality of life for not only the dog, but also yourself. Owning a dog is supposed to be a pleasure (most of the time) and not dictate your life in a negative way. Personally I draw the line at a dog biting the hand that feeds it in all but an accident. Managing a dog that is dog and human aggressive is one thing, but also a danger to myself? I'm afraid I could not live with a dog like that.


I absolutely agree. I do hope you do not get hurt and even more that no one else does. The fact that he is barking and going for other dogs and people, even if he is muzzled, probably means you could be made to have him pts under the new law. Frankly I think you should consider long and hard why you are keeping this dog.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> *I'm over in Hertfordshire*. If you do know him feel free to nonchalantly mention me so he knows I'm not just plodding along with Myles. :thumbup1:


bloody well knew it!

now, hows _that_ for intuition based on ONE sentence!

im guessing he's yer man


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Frankly I think you should consider long and hard why you are keeping this dog.


I understand and why I'm keeping him is because nobody else will take him and the only other thing I can do is kill him. I don't know how I'd feel about that (it would be nice to have friends over without planning a year in advance) but Myles doesn't know any different to what he's got now and that's what's stopping me from putting him down because I don't know how conscious he is of happiness/unhappiness having never experienced anything other than what he has now. If a dog never goes for a walk, it's not going to miss walks until it has one. I don't know if that applies here or not and I'm after opinions regarding that.

At home he lives like a fairly normal dog and doesn't need to be muzzled when it's just me and him at home but I am more careful than I would be with other dogs.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> I understand and why I'm keeping him is because nobody else will take him and the only other thing I can do is kill him. I don't know how I'd feel about that (it would be nice to have friends over without planning a year in advance) but Myles doesn't know any different to what he's got now and that's what's stopping me from putting him down because I don't know how conscious he is of happiness/unhappiness having never experienced anything other than what he has now. If a dog never goes for a walk, it's not going to miss walks until it has one. I don't know if that applies here or not and I'm after opinions regarding that.
> 
> At home he lives like a fairly normal dog and doesn't need to be muzzled when it's just me and him at home but I am more careful than I would be with other dogs.


Your dog sounds like he has does have a friend
That might be worth living for


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've kept a rescue rottie that other people told me to have put down. She bit me and my husband and was an absolute nightmare to walk as she hated most other dogs. She tried to bite the vet (well she caught him a glancing blow) and could not be trusted with visitors. Its a big decision to keep a dog like that and for us the deciding factor was whether we could keep her and everyone else safe. In our case yes we could as we have no children or visiting children and very few visitors full stop. With a muzzle and harness/lead and baby gates in the house and a door drill used 100% of the time we managed it. She even had 3 big orthopaedic operations without biting anyone once they understood how to manage her. We're lucky too in that we have walks very close by that are remote and have very few dogs around so she did get off her lead a bit out in the middle of nowhere. 

If you think you dog does have a quality of life and you are sure that you can keep yourself, visitors and the general public safe then I would ignore other peoples comments but if you doubt that you can do that then you might need to think seriously about the alternative.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> now, hows _that_ for intuition based on ONE sentence!


Funnily enough, I had the same thought too, and I'm nowhere near Hertfordshire!
If it's the Steve I think it is, he is a very good trainer.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...
> The vet never recommended the nylon muzzle.


thank God for small favors - i was really worried about the quality of medical advice U were getting!


mylesaminute said:


> He told me *muzzling was cruel* right before he was bitten, [taking it off] & trying to do his job.


What a dimwit.  Muzzles are safety-equipment, & are also often required for specific times
or places; my Akita wore a habituated muzzle on the bus because dogs MUST be either crated & carried,
or wear a muzzle - & even at 12-WO, she was too big to drag around in a box. :lol: I needed the bus,
she was coming along, she needed a muzzle; very simple.
She LIKED her muzzle - it meant a trip, which made it easy for me to also use it for the vet's when she
ripped a claw & was in severe pain. Made life much easier, all around.


mylesaminute said:


> When Myles barks, he gets more stressed, which makes his behaviour worse. If he can't work himself up further
> by barking, then he's not as difficult and he calms down faster, which is why I use the nylon muzzle -
> & the Baskerville is so he can't nip through the end.
> 
> *His mouth is odd-shaped & the Baskerville muzzle doesn't prevent biting completely.*


I have literally never heard of this - a dog who can BITE whilst wearing a basket-muzzle. 
Can U get a good photo of him ONLY in the basket-muzzle, so we can see where the problem is?
U should be able to get a decent pic in the house, where / when he's less-stressed & won't re-direct -
i don't want to be the cause of U being bitten, even slightly. 


mylesaminute said:


> Is there a better muzzle I can try?
> I've looked at the newer Baskerville that secures over the head & the cage comes around to his cheeks near enough
> but that pushes his teeth closer to the cage & *he can bite through it* so I sent it back.


Again, i'm so sorry - literally, this is a new phenomenon. 
I've worked with dogs who were seriously aggro, many with bite-histories, & i have - so far! - never had a dog
who could BITE THRU a muzzle. I'm having a difficult time visualizing it - i am not doubting U at all, i just can't
visualize the fit, the gap or closeness, & how he bites while wearing one.


mylesaminute said:


> I'm using the original right now. All the muzzles I've used were fitted by the manager of the store when I bought them.
> I feel bad for never looking into it, but can you get custom-made muzzles so that it fits him?


Yes - if his face is really unusual, there ARE custom-muzzles, but U need very accurate measurements;
that could be a real problem, i don't know how touchy he is about things round his head, face, etc.
But U'd need either a soft fabric measuring tape [so the edges don't hurt him, or slide over & poke his eyes],
or a soft cord or flat braid that U can *accurately* mark, then measure once U take it off.

So... a non-stinky marker or pen, perhaps a ball-point & a yard of white flat fabric tape with closed edges
[a tube, flattened & pressed, so the edges are round & don't cut], & measure everything: around his foreface
just ahead of his eyes, length from occiput [bump on the back of his head] to nose-end, all sorts.

The website should LIST all the different measurements needed in detail.

Gotta go - i'm hanging window-insulating kits today while the sun's still up. Back later...
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Okay thanks. When he's wearing the nylon muzzle he can nip through the end. He can't actually bite when he's wearing any of the muzzles, but he can nip through all of them. When he's wearing the Baskerville he can press the side of his mouth into you and nip from the side. I tried to get a photo just now but it came out worse than I thought so I've attached a photo of him in just the nylon one (I know you don't like it) as well so you can see his face shape from the side.

P.S I don't take him for walks on a head collar (he jumps around too much and I worry about him hurting his neck) but I put it on when we go to the vets because I can hold his head easier and it means he can't turn around to have a go at the vet if he's being examined. The photo of him in the nylon muzzle was taken just outside the vets a few months ago and the Baskerville photo was taken just now. Sorry for the poor quality, I hope you can see what I mean by "he bites through them".

He's got a really prominent stop, a long nose, a fat nose and a flat end. It's difficult to describe but I think you can see it in these photos.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> All the muzzles I've used were fitted by the manager of the store when I bought them. I feel bad...
> can you get custom-made muzzles, so that it fits him?


this is a well-made wire basket, with leather straps [which can be replaced - the basket will outlast them]
& a leather "sling" to hang the wire basket ABOVE the face - it never should touch the dog, it floats -
above the muzzle in front of the eyes, only the leather touches the dog.

Note the strap going over the head to the collar, so s/he cannot thumb the mask off & bite freely.
Note the angled cheek-strap, too - again, so the dog cannot force the basket sideways to bite past it.








My personal preference is for a vinyl-coated wire basket - it's lightweight, durable, cannot RUST nor does
electrolysis weaken it, etc; the vinyl coating protects the dog's skin, AND the metal from oxidation.

Leather muzzles are too bulky & limit airways, get slimed & stink, will rot if not cared for [saddle soap,
proper leather care, regular oiling, etc].

Plastic can break - cold makes it brittle, heat makes it soft, rivets crack it, etc.

The basket portion should cover the dog's entire depth of foreface & jaw - all the way to the angle
of the commissure, where upper flew meets lower flew - the literal corner of the mouth, on each side.
The end of the basket should be an inch to 1.5-inches ahead of the dog's nose - again, never touching.
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks a lot, I'll call around and see if I can find a shop that sells them where I can take him and have someone help me fit it. I had one like that before (the one I mentioned that I sent back) but was plastic with nylon straps, I was worried about metal rusting and I see I don't have to worry about that now.

Thanks a lot leashedForLife.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

He looks lovely. I can see why you have persevered with him :thumbup1:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Your dog sounds like a good guy to me


Seems to reflect his dad - under no illusions, contented with his lot, philosophical, realistic
Does what needs doing

You got a good handle on everything
I'd be comfortable enough passing the time with him


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...
> When he wears the nylon muzzle, he can nip through the end.


That's completely predictable - 
it's part of why i despise the bl**dy things, they give false impressions of "safety" for human handlers,
don't actually STOP biting except for full-mouth, deep-grip bites, & a dog can still grab a hunk of skin & rip,
using their small, sharp incisors. U can get quite a wicked bite from a medium to large dog, with incisors
only - bloody as H***, torn full-depth of the skin, needs stitches, possibly a drain, etc.

I think nylon or any tube-muzzle - mesh, metal mesh, fabric with cutesy floral prints, whatever -
are as useless as chocolate-teapots for their intended purpose, & downright dam*ed dangerous for dogs -
or for that matter, cats, llamas, ferrets, whoever. *Basket muzzles are safer for any species - with the
exception of horses*, who cannot BREATHE thru their mouths, anyway, only thru their nostrils.


mylesaminute said:


> He can't actually bite when he's wearing any of the muzzles, but he can nip through all of them.
> In the Baskerville, *he can press the side of his mouth [against] you and nip from the side*.


Ah! - now i see. :thumbsup:


mylesaminute said:


>


That basket-muzzle is way, *way*-too snug.

It's not a swimsuit - it's a muzzle.  It's spozed to be OFF the face, so he can't get his teeth
to the frame of the muzzle - his teeth & face should float in the midst of it, if U see what i mean?

I'll find a properly-fitted one, & post a pic. Hang on...
This is properly-fitted, but the box portion is a BIT too deep* - however, deeper is better than short:
EDIT: 
in front of the dog's nose - the basket front-to-back is too long for this Lab's foreface.







this one's OK for fit, but a bad design: too wide spaces on the sides, NO STRAP over the head -
this Rott could rip the basket off & nail someone in seconds; also, the box is a half-inch or so too short -
too close to the nose:







Way too deep, top to bottom:







Too shallow! - the dog can't properly PANT:







OK for fit, could be a half-inch deeper basket / more distance in front of the nose, but again,
*bad design*: wires spaced too far on the side, no OVER THE HEAD strap to secure the muzzle:







.
.
.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

He has a long narrow nose - a greyhound muzzle might fit him. Worth a try, look on Ebay, they are not too expensive and come in a wide range of very pretty colours 

GREYHOUND AND LARGE DOG LIGHTWEIGHT BOX MUZZLE | eBay


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> He has a long narrow nose - a Greyhound muzzle might fit him. Worth a try, look on E-bay,
> they are not too expensive, & come in a wide range of very pretty colours
> 
> GREYHOUND AND LARGE DOG LIGHTWEIGHT BOX MUZZLE | eBay


these are fine, EXCEPT -- there's no *over-the-head strap* to prevent snatching the basket off the face.

Dogs who are muzzle-savvy can thumb that basket off in seconds, & go for ___ .
My Akita had worn her basket-muzzle for 2 years without an issue; a loose dog charged us as we passed
a cottage inside a private campground, & she had that muzzle off before i could blink - literally. :blink:

I was astonished, as it had never occurred to me that she could do that, altho in retrospect, i should have
expected it; she'd never NEEDED to get it off, but she was no fool, & knew dam* well how to escape.
Her muzzle was dangling under her chin, the other dog stopped & barked furiously, & we went on. 
Whew!

Within 3 days, i'd added a leather strap over her head. :lol: Sorry, Moon - U let the cat outta the bag,
no secrets, now!...

U can add a nylon webbing strap in contrasting or complementary color; hand-stitch it with DENTAL floss
for strength & durability, use a box-stitch [x] to secure both ends, & put the SEAMS outward - the inside,
toward the dog, is smooth. Don't forget to heat-seal the cut ends - a lighter or even a match will do, but 
do it *outside the house, or under an already-running vent fan on HIGH that goes outside - toxic fumes*! 
Stinks, too.

U'll need a buckle to secure it around the dog's collar - plastic or metal, my preference is brass,
so it won't rust. Puncture the strap with a heated wire for non-fray holes to adjust the length. 
A bare coat-hanger [no *varnish*] works well - so does copper, pointed.
.
.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> these are fine, EXCEPT -- there's no *over-the-head strap* to prevent snatching the basket off the face.
> .


Yes that could be added, but may not be needed - a long nosed dog wearing a greyhound type muzzle will find it harder to lever off .... there wouldn't be enough "give" in the straps for it to pull off far enough.

I use these muzzles for my own two dogs when needed, as they have long noses as well. A better fit than Baskerville (plus they aren't that horrible Surgical Appliance Pink colour


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Would the baskerville ultra be any better, I seem to think that has an over the head strap? I had one for the rottie I was talking about - she had a longer than normal rottie nose but probably not as pointy as the doberman and they come in black.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks for the muzzle recommendations. The problem I have is finding a shop that has the specific muzzles I want as well as a manager of the shop to fit it for me so the more muzzle types I have to look for the better. I was just thinking I could ask Steve to come with me to fit the muzzle for me in store instead of relying on a manager. If Myles had an easier face type I would just order the muzzles online but his face is really big and round at the cheeks but his nose is slim in the middle and fat at the end and pinched down in a door-stop like way so it makes getting the sizes right online difficult for me. 

The Baskerville ultra is the muzzle I had before which I sent back because it kept sliding even though the straps were tight at the back of his head. I couldn't tighten it any more but it was still slipping too much and the smaller size wouldn't have been long enough in the basket for his nose. 

I prefer the Greyhound muzzles you suggested MerlinsMum because the plastic is softer and it wouldn't hurt as much when he slams his head around. If they had an over the head strap they would be great. leashedForLife, did adding the leather strap work well or do you find the ones with the already built in strap to be more effective? 

I'm having a hard time finding a plastic muzzle with an over the head strap and I'm wondering if that's because the plastic bends when pressure's put on it and it would make the over the head strap redundant (because it would just morph and slide when pressure's put on it).


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...
> The *Baskerville Ultra* is the muzzle I had before - which I sent back - it kept sliding altho the straps were
> tight at the back of his head. I couldn't tighten it any more, but it still slipped too much, & the smaller size
> wouldn't have been long enough in the basket for his nose.


bummer. :nonod:


mylesaminute said:


> I prefer the Greyhound muzzles you suggested, MerlinsMum; the plastic is softer & it wouldn't hurt as much,
> when he slams his head around. If they had an over the head strap, they'd be great.


he bangs his head on U? - or he tries to scrub the muzzle off, on Ur thigh, leg, etc?


mylesaminute said:


> leashedForLife, did adding the leather strap work well or do you find those with a built-in strap more effective?


It worked fine. I hand-stitched it, the strap was cut to length with just 2 holes for adjusting, & i used
a small brass buckle meant for shoes; i poked the holes with an ice-pick. :lol: Necessity's a mother.



mylesaminute said:


> I [can't find] a plastic muzzle with an over the head strap - I wonder if that's because the plastic bends when
> [under] pressure, & the over the head strap [becomes] redundant, because it would just morph & slide when
> pressure is put on the muzzle.


i'd add one anyway; better to have it & not need it, than to need it & not have it. 
A half-hour of hand-sewing is cheap insurance, IMO.

BTW, U'll need a thimble or gloves to push a needle thru nylon webbing.

Leather is easier -
sharpen an ice-pick & perforate the leather to half its thickness, then the needle will easily slip thru.
THEN - after making the hole - run the thread thru, & go to the next one. Puncture one strap at a time - don't try 
to poke the needle thru 2 layers, use the perforated one to MARK the point where the next hole should be.
Each hole becomes a guide for where to put the hole beneath it.

Poke, needle, mark with point, poke, needle, thread both holes, pull snug, etc.
If U want to do a truly pro job, use TWO needles & sew from each side - each hole gets thread going in
both directions, up & down, crossing one another. And again, dental floss is super-durable, & waxed will
slip thru easily. 

Square-knot twice at the end, cut the thread & MELT the knot so it can't come undone [use a match, hold
the knot above it so the heat rises, do it outside to avoid a stink, or under a powerful fan that vents outside].
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

LOL I was just going to heat up the point of the needle to get it through the leather/nylon easier and double back on the leather/nylon strap itself to secure it to the basket by stitching it in a loop type (the end of the strap under the rest of the strap) thing if that makes sense. Whenever I have to lengthen/tighten a collar by adding more holes I just heat up a nail and poke it through, maybe a needle would be too brittle for that. Your way sounds too complicated for my simpleton brain, maybe I'll have to get my mum to do it for me. 

When he's trying to attack he'll throw his head around and typically he slams it into my legs, hips or arms, sometimes he'll have reared up and be head height but so far I've managed to dodge any head shots. I did have a bruise on my shoulder for a few weeks once though. He's not doing it on purpose, he just flails and doesn't care what his face smashes into. He doesn't try to rub his muzzles off, he's comfortable wearing them. 

After he's tried attacking something he'll sometimes try to rub his face on my legs. If he calms down by the time we're in a secluded and safe place then I can take his muzzles off and give his mouth a bit of a rub to ease any bruising he gets from smacking his head into me but then I have to put it back on to walk him home and sometimes he's too wound up for me to be confident he won't bite me for me to take his muzzles off outside and I wait until we get home to make sure he hasn't hurt his mouth.

Thank you leashedForLife. :thumbup1:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> I prefer the Greyhound muzzles you suggested MerlinsMum because the plastic is softer and it wouldn't hurt as much when he slams his head around.


Try one - it's not going to cost a fortune if it doesn't work  
I think you've seen from the design that it can't be bitten through.

Muzzle slamming is a recognised issue. I seem to remember a UK police force that muzzled its dogs some years ago, still got complaints from criminals, with regard to bruising.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks MerlinsMum, will do. I like the colours the Greyhound muzzles you posted come in as well, I like the yellow as it stands out as a muzzle and gives everyone more warning that there's something up. 

I've just taken Myles for a walk and we had a bit of a bad time so I'm off to bed now, everything looks better in the morning. He's got a really minor bite on his front leg (2 very small punctures) from another dog and I've got a cut on my arm from the lead so I'm feeling calling in sick and taking a trip to the vet and maybe the doctor tomorrow morning, not sure right now if the vet trip will be worth it but my head will be clearer tomorrow. 

Cheers for all the muzzle recommendations and little bits of advice today everybody, it would be nice if I can cut down on all the things Myles needs to wear in public and he'll be more comfortable if he can come off of the nylon muzzle without jeopardising anyone's safety as well. All I ever get is people telling me to euthanize him or at best not commenting on that type of thing, so it's nice to have a few people understanding why I still have him as well --- but I appreciate everyone who has expressed concern because I would as well.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> Funnily enough, I had the same thought too, and I'm nowhere near Hertfordshire!
> If it's the Steve I think it is, he is a very good trainer.


LOL

yeh, must be him!

(dont tell steve though myles described his mixture of negative/positive training - that is not what you are sposed to think 

......but respects to steve, but lets get real here )


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...
> He was 5-6 months when he was a bit fat.
> 
> The vet did the 6 panel & TSH, & he's had x-rays as I thought he might have had a tumour - [a] friend's dog
> ...


Ask vet #2 where the sample went for analysis?


mylesaminute said:


> "I would not let the vet talk me into skipping any..." :lol:
> My vet charges £105 for a sedated claw trim; I don't think a vet has ever tried to talk me out of giving
> them more money.


Gee - there must be a difference in USA-vets' perception of their clients' willingness to spend...
at least, compared to UK-vets' perceptions of their clients & fees. 


mylesaminute said:


> I don't remember how much the first two tests cost, but the last was £209. I've heard of Dr. Jean Dodds
> but didn't think the vet would not check the bloodwork properly. It didn't occur to me before now that they
> haven't been reading it right.


It's not 'wrong' vs right - it's breed-specific ranges [MSU] or extreme specialization & knowledge [Dodds].

The locum vet isn't incompetent - they just can't have the same amount of data at their fingertips,
& really are not to blame - there's no blame involved. It's just the level of expertise & /or data amassed.


mylesaminute said:


> Roughly how long... would it take to get results back, if I sent them to Jean Dodds?
> It took about 2 weeks in 2014 when we had the 6 panel re-done & I don't know where it was sent
> for analysis.


Not a clue - sorry. 

U could also ask for a phone-consult & offer *both* Dodds / HemoPet AND Mich State vet-labs the data
from the Jan-2014 specimen - just fax or scan the page, & send it off with a request for a 2nd opinion.

That could be very informative - or repeat the 6-panel; ship it to one [i'd choose MSU] & consult the other.
Getting the most-possible bang for the buck is key.
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks, I'll contact the vet tomorrow and see about finding out where the samples were sent. I might ask about getting a copy of the paperwork so I don't have to fork out for a third 6 panel test.

From what I've gathered over the years vets in the UK are typically more willing to work out payment plans if you're short of cash than vets in the US but I've never had experience of vets in America. All of the vets I've spoken to have encouraged me to spend as much money as possible for each visit.  "Oh, you're here for a nail trim - do you want dewormers, flea treatment, neuter, check-up, booster shot and a teeth cleaning with that?"

Last nights battle wounds

attacked by a ferocious flat nylon flexi lead 








attacked by a ferocious dog on the end of the flat nylon flexi lead









Had to keep Myles on the Baskerville muzzle for a while when we got home last night because he was wound up but he seems back to normal this morning.


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Ouch, poor dog, I don't blame him for being wound up after that 

Poor you too - that's some bad flexi lead use by that owner there. Have you had it seen to? Also you might want to report the incident. The dog warden will tell them to keep the dog muzzled and on an appropriate lead if they can get hold of them.

Edit to add - I use a greyhound muzzle for Shadow, it's the only one that fits his pointy face :lol: They still hurt a bit if you get caught in the cross fire and hit by it, but nowhere near as much as a metal muzzle. I like them.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> Thanks, I'll contact the vet tomorrow and see about finding out where the samples were sent. I might ask about getting a copy of the paperwork so I don't have to fork out for a third 6 panel test.
> 
> From what I've gathered over the years vets in the UK are typically more willing to work out payment plans if you're short of cash than vets in the US but I've never had experience of vets in America. All of the vets I've spoken to have encouraged me to spend as much money as possible for each visit.  "Oh, you're here for a nail trim - do you want dewormers, flea treatment, neuter, check-up, booster shot and a teeth cleaning with that?"
> 
> ...


Bloody hell

Whereabouts in Hertfordshire did that happen?


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I thought about reporting it but the girl seemed reasonable (just shrugged off the fact I'd booted her dog) and apologised and stayed to make sure we were okay before she left. I think it was an honest mistake as we were coming around a bend and neither of us had seen each other soon enough. She said her dog had never done that before but that's what most people say when something bad happens. I haven't seen her before that night so whether she's just visiting or not is unknown.

I live by a farm in Stevenage and was walking back from there. I have permission to run Myles on the land between 6pm and 5am as long as we're not affecting the livestock. I was walking back from there and we were by the road when we met the other dog.

Myles doesn't seem affected by the incident and is acting his normal self but who knows with him. 

I called the vet today to find out about the 6 panel test and where it had been sent but the vet who did the test wasn't in. For some reason the receptionist doesn't have access to that sort of information so I have to call back on Monday to find out what's what. Also called a few pet shops to try to find a greyhound muzzle but I'm not sure the employees I spoke to knew much about muzzle types.

"we have a plastic one."
"Is it a greyhound one?"
"idk."
"Would it fit a greyhound?"
"no."

I think it will be a "pay a visit" type thing to see if they have what I want.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Cripes!

I have a dog that would murder another dog given half a chance but he's safe around people (and bitches). He's manageable and we're happy to manage him but I couldn't cope with human aggression as well.

Profound admiration for your very practical and humane ways of dealing with your dog. LeashedForLife helped me a lot with Rex.

Rex is about seven years old now and a much loved dog who has a great quality of life so far as I can tell. Some folk think we're unkind because he's never off-lead but _he_ seems quite contented. His only other option is a one-way trip to the vet (or what my OH would call the "4c solution") and I'm very sure he wouldn't want that.








[/URL][/IMG]

Rex suffering horribly; being mauled by a human.

Good luck with your dog.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Funnily enough, I had the same thought too, and I'm nowhere near Hertfordshire!
> If it's the Steve I think it is, he is a very good trainer.


I think I know who it is too


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> I honestly don't think I could cope with a dog as bad as that. From what you have described, Im beginning to worry about your own safety, being that he is so unpredictable.


Really agree with this - a bully x dobe is going to be a heavy, powerful dog - what if one day you are unwell and miss his signal that he is going to attack? Would he stop when he had you down, or realised that he had hurt you? It doesn't sound as though he would.
I don't think that his quality of life sounds bad - he has constant company, and even if he is muzzled outdoors it is something he is used to. I think though that he is a real danger to you and wonder if there isn't something wrong with him (physically). I'm assuming that you have had tests etc done to ensure that he hasn't got a slow-growing brain tumour, or some chronic condition which may not be immediately obvious but still causing him distress. It may be that he is in constant pain and this is how he expresses it.

I would be worried personally - I have never had a dog that bit me deliberately, and I wouldn't keep it if I did - especially a powerful dog like Myles. I know he was six months when you got him, but older dogs than that have been successfully rehabilitated, at least with their families. It is very worrying that he hasn't changed in his attitude towards you. When he has bitten you, how badly were you injured (not that that means much - it may be lack of opportunity that stopped any serious injuries)?

I would also be very concerned that if he accidentally got out, or if there were workmen in the house for any reason, or (say) a child climbed over your fence to retrieve a ball that there would be a serious (and in the case of a child) possibly fatal attack.

Only you can decide if you want to keep him. It sounds as though you have been at the end of your tether more than once, and vets etc have talked you out of euthanising a healthy dog - do they know what a danger he is? I couldn't enjoy a dog like this -I would be too worried. I think you've done extremely well to have controlled him as well as you have so far.

I don't lightly suggest euthanasia, but if he were mine, I would have parted with him the second time he bit me (once might be an accident).

EDIT: Just read through the thread properly and seen that you have had appropriate tests - sorry to nag.

And having seen his photo I can see why you are so besotted with him - what a beautiful dog! I wonder what has affected him so badly though, before you got him, to make him so unreliable.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

lostbear, I've actually had Myles since he was 10 weeks old as he was bred by a colleague of mine, I wanted to take him at 8 weeks but she wanted to keep them until they were 10. I was speaking with the same colleague today and she told me how one of her dogs had tried to attack a member of her family earlier in the week despite the dog being familiar with all the family and never having done that before. I know the puppies were properly cared for despite being an oops litter and my colleague has raised and trained both of her dogs alone and hasn't had a complaint prior to this week when her dog tried to attack a member of the family.

I'm wondering if maybe it's just bad genetics. I did mention to my colleague that she should take her dog to the vet for a check up but whether she will or not is another matter, I think she's just calling it "one of those things" for the time being and just being more careful. 

I neutered Myles very early at just under 6 months as Dobermans are partial to SSA and I thought that's what was wrong with him, and because of that he doesn't have as much muscle as he would have if he was still intact which I'm glad for. I think if he was as bulky as he could be I would have had to have him PTS already, I have a hard time pushing him off of me when he jumps up at me after trying to attack another dog/person and he's pretty soft to touch (muscles).


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

lostbear said:


> Really agree with this - a bully x dobe is going to be a heavy, powerful dog - what if one day you are unwell and miss his signal that he is going to attack? Would he stop when he had you down, or realised that he had hurt you? It doesn't sound as though he would.
> I don't think that his quality of life sounds bad - he has constant company, and even if he is muzzled outdoors it is something he is used to. I think though that he is a real danger to you and wonder if there isn't something wrong with him (physically). I'm assuming that you have had tests etc done to ensure that he hasn't got a slow-growing brain tumour, or some chronic condition which may not be immediately obvious but still causing him distress. It may be that he is in constant pain and this is how he expresses it.
> 
> I would be worried personally - I have never had a dog that bit me deliberately, and I wouldn't keep it if I did - especially a powerful dog like Myles. I know he was six months when you got him, but older dogs than that have been successfully rehabilitated, at least with their families. It is very worrying that he hasn't changed in his attitude towards you. When he has bitten you, how badly were you injured (not that that means much - it may be lack of opportunity that stopped any serious injuries)?
> ...


lots of what iffs
applies to anything really


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

So sorry you are having such a hard time with this dog...and you obviously love him very much.

I agree with Lostbear and I would be worried for your safety aswell as any body else's.

What more can you do for him?

Over the years I have been bitten accidentally by dogs but never had one where they wanted to bite me.

He is a beautiful boy....but your own safety has to come first.

My dogs are a huge part of my life...but they live with me under my rules, not theirs.

so sorry.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

mylesaminute said:


> lostbear, *I've actually had Myles since he was 10 weeks old *
> 
> Sorry OP - I don't know why, but I thought you had taken him at 6 months. I have no idea where I got this idea from as when I re-read your first post there is nothing in there to suggest that you took him as an older pup.
> 
> ...


I don't envy you the choice you are having to make - he's a beautiful dog and you obviously adore him, but he is tremendously hard work and must be a great worry.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> lots of what iffs
> applies to anything really


Yes it does, but if you have an unpredictable dog, you have to take as many "ifs" into account as you can. It is your responsibility if anyone, or another animal, is hurt.

Using your logic OP might as well let him run unleashed and unmuzzled through a children's playground


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

From what you say no, I don't think it's cruel to keep him alive. I'm not sure I could do it. I spent 8 years living with a dog who wanted to kill anything non human that he encountered and that was bad enough, if human aggression had been thrown into the mix I don't think I'd have been able to cope. 

So I guess what it boils down to is whether you feel confident that you can keep him and ensure that an incident never happens. I said on another thread yesterday that there is no room for accidents such as fences blowing down, leads breaking etc with some dogs and to be honest, yours sounds like one of them. And of course whether you're happy to do so. I didn't even realise how stressful it was managing Rupert until he'd gone (kidney failure, he wasn't put to sleep because of his issues) and I got a "normal" dog.

It really sounds like you're doing everything possible to try to help him and good on you for that  I'd offer Ruperts old muzzle, it's the sort L4L is recommending and I have no use at all for it now he's gone but we've just moved and I have no idea where it is at the moment. If (and it's a bit of a big if as my flat currently looks a bit like a storage unit with all the boxes!) I come across it before you've found one I'd be happy to send it if you want.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

lostbear, No that's okay, I mentioned something about "6 months" regarding his SA, maybe that's where you pulled it from.  Also the colleague who gave me Myles is the owner of both the dad and the mum, the mum's the Dobermann and the dad is the Staff. It was the mum that tried to attack the family member if I'm understanding it correctly, then the dad tried to join in but the whole thing was stopped quick. Apparently the family member was sitting in the garden with the rest of the family and the dogs and a few people stood up to go get drinks and it was on the way back into the house that the dog tried to attack, I wasn't there. 

My colleague's worried about it because of Myles and she's tried to get hold of the owners of the other puppies to ask about them but hasn't got an answer from phone calls/emails yet, so who knows what's going on there. 

Thanks Sarah1983 I'll keep that offer in mind, it means a lot.  I've visited a couple of pet shops over the last few days and found a similar muzzle in one but it looked really cheap and tacky and I wouldn't trust it to hold too well so the search continues.

All of my neighbours are aware that Myles isn't nice and the kids that live right next door are good about knocking to ask for toys back if they've been thrown over the fence. I often hear my neighbours the other side talking to their young kids (around 5 years old) about Myles and telling them not to aggravate him by leaning against the fence and stuff. Somehow I've managed to stay on good terms with the people that live around me, despite Myles being so inconvenient for a lot of people. 

We've had a couple of break ins in the street over the last few years and I think my immediate neighbours feel safer with Myles around, the neighbour with the young kids knocked on my door one night and asked me to check her house for her because her front door was ajar when she came home. Her husband was away and it was just her and the kids so understandably she was scared about going inside first. 

Saying that I change the fence panels each summer so I know they'll hold up in the winter and am careful to keep the gates padlocked. If I can hear my neighbours' kids in their own gardens I tend to put Myles on the Baskerville before sending him outside or I'll go out with him, we had an incident a few years back where one of the neighbourhood cats almost got pushed off the fence and made a meal out of and that's stuck with me.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

You're obviously taking a very responsible attitude MM. I hope that everything works out well for you and for Myles. Our dogs are like our children - we love them and do our best to teach them good behaviour, and it breaks our hearts when things go wrong.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

I've been reading through this whole thread and trying really hard throughout to picture life with this dog from your perspective.
It sounds like you really are responsible and pragmatic about his shortcomings. But throughout all your posts I don't see any mention of the things that really make me love my dog. Does he ever show you affection? Does he ever make you laugh (even though sometimes you simultaneously want to scream)? Does he ever try to please you?
In other words, what sort of a relationship do you have beyond sharing the same space?
You question whether your dog is happy and this seems to be the initial reason for your post because whether he is or not is the justification for euthanasia.
I don't think dogs (animals generally) make the same value judgements we do, they live in the moment. To quote Stephen Fry, a bear will never wake up and say to himself 'I was a very bad bear yesterday' he just gets on with being a bear.
If you feed him, exercise him, care for his health and allow him the opportunities to do doggy things and express doggy instincts then I imagine he is content, which is as close to being happy as he can be.
But what about YOU? Are you happy? Does he make you happy ever?
For me it's this animal/human relationship that is so crucial and if this bond is missing, well, it isn't your fault.
But maybe it's time he moved over so you can allow another, more rewarding relationship with an animal into your life. I don't think it is selfish of you to want that or to give yourself permission to have that. Or to give another dog the chance to have that with you, because there are plenty looking for it!
Yes, the consequences of giving up on him are awful for your dog, but it definitely sounds like you tried your best.
On the other hand, if you do share these lovely moments of affection and laughter that most pet lovers do, it only has to be fleeting to make it worthwhile imo.
Sorry for rambling!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> I've been reading through this whole thread and trying really hard throughout to picture life with this dog from your perspective.
> It sounds like you really are responsible and pragmatic about his shortcomings. But throughout all your posts I don't see any mention of the things that really make me love my dog. Does he ever show you affection? Does he ever make you laugh (even though sometimes you simultaneously want to scream)? Does he ever try to please you?
> In other words, what sort of a relationship do you have beyond sharing the same space?
> You question whether your dog is happy and this seems to be the initial reason for your post because whether he is or not is the justification for euthanasia.
> ...


Your post, of course, pressuposes that a show of affection and making one laugh is the definition of love, and what constitutes happiness for the OP is what constitutes happiness for yourself.
To move over for another would be a harsh penalty for a dog, if he may not inhabit the values of one whilst living with the values of another


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2015)

Lets be clear about something here, euthanizing a behaviorally troubled dog is not giving up on the dog. It can in fact be an incredibly brave and compassionate thing to do. 

As for the OP, really the only one who can decide is you. I do not think you are cruel to keep him alive, nor would I think it cruel of you to euthanize him. 

There are a lot of eventualities to consider as others have brought up, and it sounds like you have, so I wont bore you with repetition. 

Bottom line, its up to you. Either way youre in for a tough time, so my thoughts go out to you.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Let's be clear about something here, euthanizing a behaviorally troubled dog is not "giving up" on the dog. It can in fact be an incredibly brave and compassionate thing to do.
> 
> As for the OP, really the only one who can decide is you. I do not think you are cruel to keep him alive, nor would I think it cruel of you to euthanize him.
> 
> ...


nicely put

it may not be a tough time though
depends upon one's OP'S perception i guess?


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Your post, of course, pressuposes that a show of affection and making one laugh is the definition of love, and what constitutes happiness for the OP is what constitutes happiness for yourself.
> To move over for another would be a harsh penalty for a dog that may not inhabit the values of one whilst living with another


I'm not pre-supposing anything, just giving examples of what make me love my dog (not the other way round). As I said, I don't think dogs make these same value judgements about happiness and well-being, they just are.

It seemed appropriate to point out that MM is entitled to want to be happy too and if living a life dominated by an anti social animal is becoming too much, I would understand that.

And I agree with ouesi that either path is tough.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> I'm not pre-supposing anything, just giving examples of what make me love my dog (not the other way round). As I said, I don't think dogs make these same value judgements about happiness and well-being, they just are.
> 
> It seemed appropriate to point out that MM is entitled to want to be happy too and if living a life dominated by an anti social animal is becoming too much, I would understand that.
> 
> And I agree with ouesi that either path is tough.


ummm...but you just said the same thing i replied to last time?

you have still typed the same presumption, that being you just described the the specific attributes that _you_ feel you love your dog, and then stating that MM '#may# not be happy with or feeling love for his dog #if# his dog does not exhibit those same attributes - 'shows of affection' and 'making one laugh' - as their are many other ways and activities and behaviours a dog can enact or be to inspire an owner to feel love for them.

it #could' be tough, if the OP regards it as tough?
again, that is one way out of many to regard the situation.
i dont know the OP, but i dont get the impression he is troubled by the 'toughness' of his situation, as his posts read like a man that perceives the circumstances as those of a 'thats life' situation; a philosophical pragmatic attitude?
but thats just my reading

also, if a dog looks at something and says to himself i know that is going to make me feel content, comfortable, warm, secure, fed, satiated, supported, engaged, excited, etc, then he is making a value judgement about his happiness and well-being


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> ummm...but you just said the same thing i replied to last time?
> 
> you have still typed the same presumption, that being you just described the the specific attributes that _you_ feel you love your dog, and then stating that MM '#may# not be happy with or feeling love for his dog #if# his dog does not exhibit those same attributes - 'shows of affection' and 'making one laugh' - as their are many other ways and activities and behaviours a dog can enact or be to inspire an owner to feel love for them.
> 
> ...


It is as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. I know how MY dog makes me happy. I cannot speak for anyone else . I am just pointing out that this, like any other, is a 2 way relationship, where both should be benefiting. The quality of the relationship seems important to me. 
I am not trying to tell anyone what to do however if it was my decision I would consider these aspects.
I am glad it is not my decision and I am not sure which path I would choose but I do agree neither is easy.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> ...
> if a dog looks at something & says to himself, *"i know that's going to make me feel content, comfortable,
> warm, secure, fed, satiated, supported, engaged, excited, ..."*, etc, then he's making a value judgement
> about his happiness and well-being.


Following this detour entirely off-topic, :lol: - i don't think dogs *think* in that fashion.

I believe dogs look at or smell or hear or feel something, & think / feel, _*"ooh, like!"...*_ :yesnod:
or conversely, _*"don't like!..."*_  , or even, *"Don't like...!"* :nonod:

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program... 
.
.
:001_smile:
.
.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Following this detour entirely off-topic, :lol: - i don't think dogs *think* in that fashion.
> 
> I believe dogs look at or smell or hear or feel something, & think / feel, _*"ooh, like!"...*_ :yesnod:
> or conversely, _*"don't like!..."*_  , or even, *"Don't like...!"* :nonod:
> ...


I do...................................


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> I know how MY dog makes me happy. I cannot speak for anyone else


This is what I was saying.
There are many reasons why people love their dogs. 
It might be the case MMs dog doesn't give him displays of affection or make him laugh? Or maybe he does?
But MM could still quite easily feel love for his dog as for just him the two things may have nothing to do with each other.

For example, it may be the way his dog just looks thatp prompts his love.
Or the way he moves or runs or rags a toy.
It may just be his company.
Or that he is just his best friend.
Or the way he snores or lays on the sofa or his stature
Etc etc etc.

So say I own a dog that has aggression problems.
Say I have everything under control and accept my lot
Say the dog likes me and likes living with me but doesn't 'give me affection or make me laugh.
But with all of that my dog has things about him that make me feel love for him therefore I have reason to be happy

Is there now a euthanasia case?
Is there now a euthanasia case so i can go and get another dog that will do things that make me laugh and give me cuddles?

Just putting it out there


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Hi, thanks for all the replies. A detoured topic with educational value isn't a detoured topic at all. 

I've always approached dogs with a "you don't like them for who they could be, you like them for who they are" type feeling so that's probably why I can get on with Myles and not stress too much over his issues. I'm not entirely sure I'm as attached to him as I was to my other dogs, I would rehome him if that was an option and I'd never entertained the thought of rehoming any of my other dogs. I don't have a problem with Myles and for the most part we can live happily together. One thing that probably gives me more patience with him is the fact he obviously likes me, regardless of how many bites he's given me.  I've had to leave him with my parents for a few days one time, and as soon as he saw me his tail started going 60mph, he never does that to anybody else. 

My life would be easier if he wasn't here but unless someone is willing to take him he's welcome here.  If he's not unhappy then I can't see a reason to have him PTS right now.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Love is a funny old thing though isn't it? Could I define why I love my husband? not really but I know I do. Can I define why I love my dogs? Sometimes, like Indie rottie is easy to love, she is so happy to see us, always wants cuddles, loves everyone she meets even the vets who have done many mean things to her. There is very little not to love about her. Then take Mabel my last rottie - the one I mentioned earlier in this thread, she was a teeny rottie and not really a very good specimen, she was distant and she bit us, both of us, several times, she didn't enjoy fuss or cuddles, in fact looking at her or touching her could often result in a bite, she wasn't up for play and she didn't like other dogs. I'm not even sure she wanted to be here. She always seemed to be looking for her boy and I'm convinced that even after 3 years of our total love and best care she would have gone off with him without a backwards glance if he had come for her, back to living rough and eating chips. Taking her anywhere was a nightmare and having anyone here was even worse. Did I love her? with all my heart, I don't know why, I don't know what I got from the relationship but I'd have her back without a second thought if it were possible and will always remember her with great affection.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

lostbear said:


> Yes it does, but if you have an unpredictable dog, you have to take as many "ifs" into account as you can. It is your responsibility if anyone, or another animal, is hurt.
> 
> Using your logic OP might as well let him run unleashed and unmuzzled through a children's playground


From what the OP tells us, he is a predictable dog, not an unpredictable dog.

Predictably aggressive
And because he is predictably aggressive the OP has just told us he has thought of the scenarios suggested and taken measures..
He also has professional assessment.

My apologies, but i literally have no idea how "that's a lot of iffs and buts' translates into your last sentence


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> ...
> [My] dog likes me & likes living with me, but doesn't *'give me affection or make me laugh'*.
> But with all that, my dog has [traits] that make me feel love... therefore I've reason to be happy.
> 
> ...


my Akita bitch wasn't a "cuddles" kind of dog; she was an incredibly-serious puppy, who after just 48-hours
away from her mum & living with me, decided - at 10-WO - that i was to be defended.  This didn't make me
happy, or proud, or flatter me in any way - every dam* morning [it was winter] the 1st person she saw who was
walking toward us, HEAD DOWN - she'd bark at; one or 2 short, startlingly-deep barks for a young pup, just
to put the 'intruder' on the sidewalk on notice that she was on duty, they'd been seen, & to alert me.

Since we lived on a hill, it was very cold & often windy, OF COURSE pedestrians walked along briskly,
head down, often with scarves across their faces; the more a person's face is obscured, the more most guard-
types find them suspicious, & Moon was no exception. But it was always the 1st suspicious character she'd
bark at; i'd say something mildly disapproving ["tsk...", 'Ah!', "Oops.", 'Uh-uh.', etc], she'd fold her ears &
look ever-so-slightly apologetic, & then the next morning... she'd do it again.

We went thru this charade for just over a month, every morning.  Finally she took me seriously,
& she just stopped. But she continued to be a very grave, very serious dog.
She actually got a bit looser, more puppy-ish, after 2-YO - but she was never a 'cuddles & giggles' dog.

If she'd been a human, she'd have been a cop, a judge, a scientist, an investigator - something.
She was Joe Friday: _"Just the facts, ma'am."_

Very judgmental dog, & i didn't get off the hook, either. If i did something she felt was wrong, she would
let me know; rearranging furniture was a Bad Thing. She'd give me a look of utter disgust, pause & stare
at me to be sure i felt the full effect of her displeasure, go in & check every piece of furniture, even those
in their usual places, to be sure they were unchanged. Then she'd, _'Chuff!'_ grumpily, & lie down.
But i'd get dirty looks for 2 or 3 days.

She loved me, but more, she trusted me. She wasn't demonstrative - leaning or nudging or rubbing.
She'd look at me from across the room as i came in, & wag - once. But her eyes would be warm coals,
& she'd smile. Her affection didn't run to greet me; it was standing beside me, if things went pear-shaped.

She was a great therapy-pet, but very very different from my previous therapy-pet, who was a clown.
Beau was a 35# goofball who resembled a seal in a black-&-tan suit; a Dachsie x Bassett. She was
almost 3 times his size, very dignified, supportive, calming, impressive. Beau *lived* to make ppl laugh;
Moon made them smile, or sigh, or sometimes their eyes would fill with tears & *then* she'd lean -
she'd press her big head against them, & they'd cry. But it was always good - they were tears that needed
to be shed.

I can't imagine demanding that either of them be any different from their own personalities - 
chalk & cheese; Beau affectionate & wiggly & goofy, Moon self-contained & dedicated & calm.

I'm not disagreeing, so much as saying that what we love in one dog may be completely absent in another -
but we love that dog, too.
.
.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> my Akita bitch wasn't a "cuddles" kind of dog; she was an incredibly-serious puppy, who after just 48-hours
> away from her mum & living with me, decided - at 10-WO - that i was to be defended.  This didn't make me
> happy, or proud, or flatter me in any way - every dam* morning [it was winter] the 1st person she saw who was
> walking toward us, HEAD DOWN - she'd bark at; one or 2 short, startlingly-deep barks for a young pup, just
> ...


funny enough, i was thinking of my girl, my akita, too, when i was writing my earlier posts


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> Hi, thanks for all the replies. A detoured topic with educational value isn't a detoured topic at all.
> 
> I've always approached dogs with a "you don't like them for who they could be, you like them for who they are" type feeling so that's probably why I can get on with Myles and not stress too much over his issues. I'm not entirely sure I'm as attached to him as I was to my other dogs, I would rehome him if that was an option and I'd never entertained the thought of rehoming any of my other dogs. I don't have a problem with Myles and for the most part we can live happily together. One thing that probably gives me more patience with him is the fact he obviously likes me, regardless of how many bites he's given me.  I've had to leave him with my parents for a few days one time, and as soon as he saw me his tail started going 60mph, he never does that to anybody else.
> 
> My life would be easier if he wasn't here but unless someone is willing to take him he's welcome here.  If he's not unhappy then I can't see a reason to have him PTS right now.


Glad to hear it from the horses mouth. I did wonder if your original post was asking permission to phts because things had become unbearable but you were perhaps clinging stubbornly to a principle that no longer worked for you. From you last I don't think this any more and if you are happy to continue as things are it is no one's business but your own.
But I do think it is important in that case to keep searching for the solution. You haven't found it yet but there is a huge difference in accepting your dog warts and all and giving up on him imo
At any rate you have provoked an awful lot of thought among the rest of us so thank you for that and best of luck for the future!!


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Have found the cure...

Was walking home last night when a man I see often let his off lead dog run over to Myles. I've told the guy about his dog being off lead on the road before but he never listens. He wasn't happy with Myles trying to eat his dog last night and thought he'd get away with being snarky with me and we ended up having a long shouting match before he retreated with his dog. After that I stormed by two people and a dog with Myles trailing behind me, I swear he didn't even look at them.

Will have to get angry more often, LOL. 

I've ordered a greyhound muzzle online, hopefully I got the right size. Tried speaking to my vet about his thyroid test and where the samples were sent for analysis but she says she'll have to "dig around" to find out. I'm going in tomorrow after work to find out exactly what's going on, it shouldn't be brain surgery to dig up some files. 

My colleague's dog is scheduled for a check-up on Friday and I've told her to ask about the full thyroid panel while she's there, who knows if she will or not. Apparently the dog growled at her a couple of times last week. 

No updates regarding Myles, just that he broke my £900 camera.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> Have found the cure...
> 
> Was walking home last night, when a man that I often see, let his off-lead dog run over to Myles.
> 
> ...


CLICK! :thumbup: Hey, if it works, don't knock it. 

Hope the thyroid records surface, & his new Greyhound muzzle fits properly - meaning "space all 'round"
so he can't get his teeth thru the mesh. Let us know how he gets on.

Have U tried OTC calmatives?

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

I can't page back to see prior posts with a draft reply up, sorry. 
.
.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

mylesaminute said:


> Have found the cure...
> 
> Was walking home last night when a man I see often let his off lead dog run over to Myles. I've told the guy about his dog being off lead on the road before but he never listens. He wasn't happy with Myles trying to eat his dog last night and thought he'd get away with being snarky with me and we ended up having a long shouting match before he retreated with his dog. After that I stormed by two people and a dog with Myles trailing behind me, I swear he didn't even look at them.
> 
> ...


Does your vet have computer records? If so the results of all the tests should be on there. My vets have all the tests recorded for my dogs, even the one who had routine thyroid tests when I got him tested as its a problem in my breeds.

Failing that if they know what Lab they used, and most seem to use the same labs repeatedly a lot of the time, then the labs should keep a record. It shouldn't be that hard.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks for the link leashedForLife, read through it and I do quite a bit of what's on there mostly for me, I use a lavender scented washing liquid on all of my washables (curtains/bed sheets/clothes) and have since starting my exams a few years ago, I had a hard time sleeping and lavender helped so I've kept it up. I tried a DAP plug-in a few years ago and kept it up for around a year but didn't notice any change in him, he's not usually stressed at home so maybe that's why.

I might try the spray, that sounds like it would be more likely to work.

Sled dog hotel, they do keep computer records, I have no idea why they're longing me out. All I really want to know is where the samples were analysed and they keep telling me it'll take time. Maybe if I take Myles with me as back-up they'll hurry their search along a bit, LOL.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

mylesaminute said:


> Thanks for the link leashedForLife, read through it and I do quite a bit of what's on there mostly for me, I use a lavender scented washing liquid on all of my washables (curtains/bed sheets/clothes) and have since starting my exams a few years ago, I had a hard time sleeping and lavender helped so I've kept it up. I tried a DAP plug-in a few years ago and kept it up for around a year but didn't notice any change in him, he's not usually stressed at home so maybe that's why.
> 
> I might try the spray, that sounds like it would be more likely to work.
> 
> Sled dog hotel, they do keep computer records, I have no idea why they're longing me out. All I really want to know is where the samples were analysed and they keep telling me it'll take time. Maybe if I take Myles with me as back-up they'll hurry their search along a bit, LOL.


They should then be able to read the results from his records, when all the lab reports come in, or they even do in house ones for various things at mine the results go on the records. How can they check results later or compare results for anything in the future if they don't? One of the Labs that's often used is Idexx, there are other labs though in the UK, mine goes to a different one.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Was told today that the samples were sent to "axiom" for analysis. Still don't know why the vet took so long, this veterinary clinic is normally pretty decent. I took Myles in for a quick check of his leg today where he got bitten a while ago and was given some antibiotics, I was hoping I wouldn't need to involve the vet but the wound started to worsen so off we went. 

I don't know how sensitive this subject is but I'll go ahead and ask anyway. I currently walk Myles on a nylon martingale collar, I'm wondering about prongs...I'm not really a fan, never have been, but have been looking into them over the last few months and there seem to be quite a few good points about them when they're used right. I've always been worried about Myles' neck because he's forever jumping at the end of the lead and he's had a horrible cough for years, the prong is meant to apply pressure all around the neck instead of just at the front. I don't think it would stop him jumping at the end of the lead but it would reduce pressure on his trachea in the least. 

I know the general theme here is PR, I'm just wondering what consensus is regarding prongs (or a prong in this case). I think I have an understanding of how to use them but I've never used one before so I'd ask Steve to help me to start with if I were to get one. I'm just thinking of alternatives to what I'm doing now, the martingale is really going to do a number on Myles one day and I'm trying to put off any unnecessary health problems for as long as I can.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

mylesaminute said:


> Was told today that the samples were sent to "axiom" for analysis. Still don't know why the vet took so long, this veterinary clinic is normally pretty decent. I took Myles in for a quick check of his leg today where he got bitten a while ago and was given some antibiotics, I was hoping I wouldn't need to involve the vet but the wound started to worsen so off we went.
> 
> I don't know how sensitive this subject is but I'll go ahead and ask anyway. I currently walk Myles on a nylon martingale collar, I'm wondering about prongs...I'm not really a fan, never have been, but have been looking into them over the last few months and there seem to be quite a few good points about them when they're used right. I've always been worried about Myles' neck because he's forever jumping at the end of the lead and he's had a horrible cough for years, the prong is meant to apply pressure all around the neck instead of just at the front. I don't think it would stop him jumping at the end of the lead but it would reduce pressure on his trachea in the least.
> 
> I know the general theme here is PR, I'm just wondering what consensus is regarding prongs (or a prong in this case). I think I have an understanding of how to use them but I've never used one before so I'd ask Steve to help me to start with if I were to get one. I'm just thinking of alternatives to what I'm doing now, the martingale is really going to do a number on Myles one day and I'm trying to put off any unnecessary health problems for as long as I can.


If he is reactive, the last thing you need to do is put him on a prong. Prongs are a great way to agitate a dog further, and cause him to have further negative associations with the dogs he is lunging at.

If you need better control and are worried about his neck, a well-fitted, good quality design body harness is the way to go.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

LOL put him on a harness are you insane. He's 97lbs of aggression, you want me to put him in a position where he can fling his entire body at the end of the lead instead of just his neck?  

I used to walk him in a no-pull harness when he was much younger and he treated it as a regular body harness. I appreciate harnesses can be great (I always used them for my other dogs and didn't think about using anything else) but I can't put him on a harness when he's as he is. 

I have read that prong collars can increase reactivity/aggression in dogs (note that Myles isn't reactive, he's aggressive) and that's one of my concerns tbh. He's going to be aggressive regardless of the collar he's on and the reason I have been looking into other collars is to try to find something that will reduce neck injuries (not to train him) I should have been clearer about that.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

mylesaminute said:


> LOL put him on a harness are you insane. He's 97lbs of aggression, you want me to put him in a position where he can fling his entire body at the end of the lead instead of just his neck?


Thanks, not insane but perhaps more experienced with properly fitted, properly used body harnesses than you? Perhaps I might know a thing or two about managing large and XL dogs? And I might have an idea or two about dogs who's aggression gets worse with pain - which is what your dog will definitely feel when he lunges in a prong.

But hey, if you want to go ahead and put a prong on him and up his aggression towards other dogs, while flooding his system with cortisol every time he lunges, who am I to stop you.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

A prong collar would be cruel IMO.

Stab yourself in the neck with a fork if you don't believe me 

What about trying a greyhound collar? They are wide and are used specifically to be gentle on the long necks that greys have. I have a lovely padded, leather one for Jack.

I would suggest also using a harness as well, as backup. The harness will take any pressure off his neck, if he starts to lunge or play up but the lead and collar gives you good control of his head.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Sorry I didn't mean to come across as rude there, I was explaining why I personally can't use a harness for him, you probably are more experienced with harnesses on aggressive dogs. It scares me to think he'd just be using his whole body instead of his neck, I can hardly hold him on the martingale. 

What harness would you recommend? I'll look into some. I need something that I could use to get him off of me as well as other people, I've seen harnesses (Julius k9) with handles on the back that look okay for keeping him off other people but I'd be screwed if he jumped up me.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> Was told today that the samples were sent to "axiom" for analysis. Still don't know why the vet took so long, this veterinary clinic is normally pretty decent. I took Myles in for a quick check of his leg today where he got bitten a while ago and was given some antibiotics, I was hoping I wouldn't need to involve the vet but the wound started to worsen so off we went.
> 
> I don't know how sensitive this subject is but I'll go ahead and ask anyway. I currently walk Myles on a nylon martingale collar, I'm wondering about prongs...I'm not really a fan, never have been, but have been looking into them over the last few months and there seem to be quite a few good points about them when they're used right. I've always been worried about Myles' neck because he's forever jumping at the end of the lead and he's had a horrible cough for years, the prong is meant to apply pressure all around the neck instead of just at the front. I don't think it would stop him jumping at the end of the lead but it would reduce pressure on his trachea in the least.
> 
> I know the general theme here is PR, I'm just wondering what consensus is regarding prongs (or a prong in this case). I think I have an understanding of how to use them but I've never used one before so I'd ask Steve to help me to start with if I were to get one. I'm just thinking of alternatives to what I'm doing now, the martingale is really going to do a number on Myles one day and I'm trying to put off any unnecessary health problems for as long as I can.


if its the steve i think it is, he wont help you with that.
he doesnt use them

i dont train with them

for dogs like myles i use a doubled ended lead connected to a head collar and harness and perform guided walking


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> :lol: put him in a harness -- are you insane?
> He's 97-lbs of aggression, you want me to put him in a position where he can fling his entire body at the end
> of the lead, instead of just his neck?


Just to note, i've handled 125# & up dogs who were dog-aggro, using a FRONT-clipped H-harness -

it provides much better control, reduces the dog's leverage, improves MY body-mechanics to help compensate
for a dog's better reaction-time, speed, athleticism, & strength per pound. Humans need all the help we can
get, & it's great to have a humane option that increases our control of a dog without pain to the dog. :thumbup:


mylesaminute said:


> I [walked] him in a *no-pull harness* when he was much younger & he treated it
> as [if it were] a regular body harness.


Most "no pull" harnesses cause discomfort of some kind - tighten, pinch armpits, etc.
What type of no-pull was it?


mylesaminute said:


> I appreciate harnesses can be great (I always used them for my other dogs...) but *I can't put him
> on a harness when he's as he is. *


Actually, yes U can, IF it's a front-clip H-harness - & if he's difficult to control, IMO & IME, U should.

The key to good handling & improved body-mechanics for the handler is to keep one's hands _Low_ & one's
arms as ___straight___ as possible, at wrist & elbow. Going chicken-winged, which bends both wrist AND elbow,
will greatly reduce Ur strength, as it puts all the strain on the forearm - not a strong area.

The front-clip harness takes the dog's power away without hurting her or him; they can't utilize all that
muscle in their torso [forelegs, chest & neck], & are reduced to the power of their rear legs - which is much less.

Plus, using a front-clip harness AND one's torso makes U much-stronger with less actual effort expended -
for Ex, U see a distant dog & while U keep a wary eye on that dog over there, Myles is surprised by a dog
who steps out between 2 parked cars [or out of a doorway as the door opens, or from between 2 buildings,
or, or, or...]. The NEARBY dog is abruptly inside Myles' reaction-zone, & he goes off, lunging & barking wildly.
...Whaddya do?

_"Let's go, Myles!..."_ :001_smile: - in a cheerful tone.
Step back with the OFF foot, the one away from Myles; move the leash with BOTH hands, to the side away from him
& BEHIND Ur hip. Wait a beat as he swivels to turn inside toward U; do an about-face & pause to let him catch up;
walk off briskly.

U just executed an emergency-U-turn with minimal force of any kind on the dog, & minimal effort on Ur part.
U used Ur torso & body-mass to restrain him, his OWN momentum to turn him around by redirecting it on a
tangent to create an arc, & he was turned away from the other dog & moving off in a matter of seconds.

Practicing this sequence as a happy, fluid routine with a verbal cue when there are NO DOGS is the key to
having it become practically automatic for U, & an ordinary cue / behavior for Myles, so that when U need it,
he's not thinking, _"O-M-G!... where's the *dog*?..._ but something more like, _"We're going back?... OK!"_


mylesaminute said:


> I've read that prong collars can increase reactivity/ aggro... (note that Myles isn't reactive, he's aggressive)
> & that's one of my concerns TBH. He'll be aggro regardless of the collar... [*I'm*] *looking into other collars*
> to... reduce [possible] neck injuries, *not to train him.*
> 
> I should have been clearer about that.


I don't think U should entirely give-up on him ever improving - especially as Mgmt, not B-Mod, can help a lot.

- use a front-clip H-harness that fits him well.
Any sturdy harness, no name-brand needed; a minimum of 3 points of adjustment: a buckle on the heart-girth,
another on the neck / shoulder straps, & either another buckle or a slide, to adjust the sternum strap.

If it has a metal ring connecting the straps at the chest, great! - clip the leash to it, & U're off.
Just a fabric loop? -- No worries; buy a LOCKING carabiner, slide it under all 3 straps diagonally, LOCK it,
clip the leash to the locked carabiner.
If U aren't sure what size, ask for help; WEIGHT is the deciding factor, tell the salesnik it's for a 100# child,
or err on the side of safety, & ask for 125# rated clips. They come in all colors, too. :thumbup1:

Leave the locked carabiner on the harness permanently, & clip or unclip the leash; that way, there's no chance
that someone might remove or unlock the carabiner, forget to LOCK it, & he might pop off & run free - natch,
this is likely to happen at precisely the worst-possible moment.  Ms Murphy's corollary. 

More Mgmt tips:
- use OTC calmatives 10 to 15-minutes before any leashed walk, or any ride in the car.
What, When, How, etc:
http://tinyurl.com/yc9gdx8

- Buy & use a *Calming-Cap*.
Teach him to put it on HIMSELF, using a clicker to mark any offered interaction. Look at it?... click / food.
Step toward it?... click / food. Sniff it?... click / food. Etc.
Finally, i hold it up with the open end toward him, the collar-loop already run onto his own opened collar,
the collar OFF him & draped over my wrists, & he pushes his nose into the hole... & is rewarded with a jackpot!
6 to 12 tiny but high-value tidbits, delivered singly in a string, just as quickly as he swallows. :thumbup:
BREAK - put it away, let latent learning work for U overnight, don't mess with it for 12 to 24-hours.

Here's the same process with a basket-muzzle:





Notice that this ACD is among the many who have no love for strangers, even friendly strangers -
but the trainer's timing is so good, the dog is happily interacting with the muzzle while still giving the trainer
a very hairy-eyeball,  - very leery with the human, very relaxed with the muzzle.

- Bag or wrap Myles' tags so they don't jingle.
That distinctive sound is a red-alert for OTHeR dogs to look for the approaching dog; run silent, & they
are less reactive / curious / excited by the prospect of meeting the unknown dog, which means *he* - Myles -
is less-likely to be fending off unwanted attention, responding similarly to a barking dog who was set off by
Myles' tags, etc, etc.

- Install an obsessive fascination with a pounceable toy - if he weren't wearing a muzzle, a tug-toy
or fetch-toy obsession would work, but his mouth is out of commission, so his forefeet with have to do.
A ribbonlike toy on a flirt-pole is a good option; a stretchy exercise band in vivid yellow is good
[dogs are red / green color-blind; yellow, white, or bright blue are good colors for visual acuity].

Teach him to kill it at home, away from other dogs; stick the wand into a back pocket with the ribbon wrapped
around the wand. Pull it out when another dog is still distant, get him off the footpath, & engage him with the wand.

There are also B-Mod techniques:
_'Click to Calm'_ is a great DIY manual; 
_'Control Unleashed'_ is for ANY self-control issue.

"look at that!" is a good tactic from Control Unleashed.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

KikoPup teaches _"Let's go!..."_






Lisa Matthews [Pawsitive Practice Training, LLC] on the advantages of front-clip harnesses






the incredible KikoPup: Teach LLW / Loose-leash walking






.
.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> for dogs like myles i use a doubled ended lead connected to a head collar and harness and perform guided walking


Sounds like a Mekuti harness or similar would be what you are looking for. They are made so that a lunging dog can't lunge, due to the gentle pressure of the harness around the chest area, which prevents the front feet from leaving the ground. That, combined with some determined reward-based training techniques, might be helpful.

Not all harnesses are the same


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ... It scares me to think he'd [use] his whole body instead of his neck,
> *I can hardly hold him on the martingale.*
> 
> ...


Imagine holding a horse with a rope round the neck, & attempting to control a half-ton animal. :yikes:

Have U considered a headcollar?
they go under the basket-muzzle with the short strap & ring under the basket, exiting to be clipped to the leash.

A properly-adjusted Gentle Leader lets the dog pant freely, is extremely adjustable to an almost-infinite
exactitude, & it's comfortable. A dog who's as accustomed as Myles to a basket-muzzle should need only
a couple of days to happily associate it, learn to shove his own face in & stand there to be buckled up, etc.
Maybe 3 to 4 days of wearing it round the house with NO leash on it, as the weight of the leash goes right on
the dog's nose, & they WILL notice it that first dozen times, too.

Use a lighter leash when U use a headcollar - bull-snaps, big fat honkin' bronze snaps, etc, are overkill.
A 6-ft long, 3/4-inch wide leash with a 2.5 to 3-inch long spring clip is fine, for a 100# dog.

U don't need a double-thickness nylon leash, 6-ft long by 1.5-inches wide, when using a headcollar.
The hardware can be half that weight - which takes the wt right off the dog's nose. :thumbup1:

.
.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I use a headcollar on mine, I've tried a front fastening harness...it was better than a collar, but, I find it more useful to have control of his head when he's trying to get to something.

I didn't like the gentle leader one, I found the clip under the chin slipped, so I use a kumfi dogalter as they're the only two I've found that fit under a muzzle.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Have U considered a headcollar?
> they go under the basket-muzzle with the short strap & ring under the basket, exiting to be clipped to the leash


Wouldn't recommend a head collar with a dog that lunges. Which is why I changed to a harness that held the body back from lunging in the first place (with plenty of reassurance and reward).

Simply because I have had a dog which still lunged when wearing a head collar, to the extent his head and neck were pulled round sideways, and if he did try jumping, then there was a terrible wrench on the neck and shoulders. Dogs that lunge can do somersaults on a head collar. That is only going to make them more afraid or angry about what causes them to dive in the first place.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks for the links and recommendations, I'm just off out now but will look into everything a bit in the morning. I'm having a hard time with the harness suggestions but I'll find a front clip harness and try that, maybe the one recommended by MerlinsMum. The last harness I had, I don't remember the name of. It has the clip at the front but pinched under his front legs to stop pulling. I've no idea what it was called now, I got it from the pet shop in town so just a bog-standard "on the shelf" harness. If I get another one I'll order it online.

Before I go I'm going to address the head collar suggestions. He's got a long neck and Dobermanns are prone to neck problems, the way he lunges and thrashes around would cause more damage to his head and neck than what the collar has done. It's not recommended that Dobermanns wear head collars. He's got a thicker neck because he's a mix but he pretty much looks like a fat Dobermann. I use a head collar for vet trips so I can secure his head easier, that's the only time I use the head collar and it would be dangerous to use it on him for walks outside, it would be fine until we see dogs/people and then he'd damage his neck really badly.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> the way he lunges and thrashes around would cause more damage to his head and neck than what the collar has done.


Says it all, so do look into the Mekuti. Used and fitted well, it does prevent lunging. More than half of working with a dog with issues like these, is prevention of them going into ninja mode... and rewarding them when they don't. Sometimes the right tool, used in conjunction with the right training, can work wonders.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Mine has a thick neck, lol (Rottweiler) but...I don't find it a huge issue because I'm on constant watch, so before he's anywhere near anything he'd lunge at I literally have him by the head, I don't leave him on a loose lead. (Which I know is contrary to most training and behavioural advice, but if he's going to try to go after something no amount of relaxed lead makes any difference and if he's not going to holding him tight doesn't make him worse).

But front fastening harnesses are way better than a collar, so definitely worth trying.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> I use a headcollar on mine, I've tried a front fastening harness... [the harness] was better than a collar,
> but I find it more useful to have control of his head, when he tries to get to something.
> 
> [Using] the Gentle-Leader... I found *the clip under the chin slipped*, so I use a Kumfi dog[h?]alter
> as they're the only two I've found that fit under a muzzle.


Funny - the more-common complaint is that they can't get the clip to UN-Snap so they can adjust it! :laugh:

The adjustable clip is a friction catch, & snaps down tightly when it's properly engaged, unless it's faulty
or cracked - TRY IT at the shop before buying it, while the salesclerk watches; get permision from the Mgr
if they get snarky, this is a function test to ensure it latches.

Use a dime or another thin, strong metal object to pry the clip up, if it's stuck; slide it under horizontal,
between clip & base; TWIST it vertical, to pop the clip up. A nail-file will work, too, just be Very very careful
not to have it ... >>>>>>>>> slip! >>>>>>> & jam into Ur hand, as U can be badly punctured. 

the clip is rectangular, with a rounded edge; it pivots on an axis that pinches BOTH straps of the noseband,
IOW it catches both sides firmly - so a tiny adjustment makes a definite change, tighter or looser, as it
shortens or lengthens both sides at once. The adjustment must be set so the noseband's lower edge WILL
NOT go past the upper-edge of the dog's nose-leather, where hair stops & skin starts.
That way, the dog can't thumb it off their face. :thumbsup:








< Neck strap ____ Nose-band >
......................|
...............Adjustment 
......................|
......................|
......................O <--- leash ring
.
.
.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

He couldn't get it off, it was tightening while he was wearing it...I didn't like that, so I swapped to the brand he wears now.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> ... Dogs that lunge *can do somersaults* on a headcollar.
> That is only going to make them more afraid or angry...


How?!... :huh:

I've used headcollars for over 20-years; I've habituated them for use on dogs who'd been lunging for years.

NONE of those dogs, not one, successfully *lunged* once they were on a headcollar - ever. Not just because
i'm such a marvel. :ihih: Novice owners of adopted dogs with major issues, never had a problem restraining their
adoptee WITHOUT hurting her or him, let alone having their dog hurtle forward & somersault! --- I've never
heard of this before, either, from any fellow trainer - I made a headcollar for myself for my Basset-X in the
late-1980s, he was a maniac for jumping on ppl to get attn & petting; his headcollar attached at the BACK
of his skull, just under his occiput, so i could prevent those forward lunges AND lift his head, as he ate stuff
while we walked along - he was a stomach on feet, & vacuumed garbage up before i ever saw it.

Beau made plenty of attempts to jump-up after donning his headcollar; he COULD have flipped backward,
like a rearing horse - but never did. He COULD have fallen sideways, like a standing statue, toppling - but he
never did.

GLs clip under the chin; the only way a dog could theoretically somersault is forward.

I've had major aggro-cases, very large dogs, who wore GLs within 4 to 5 days of their intro; never had a dog
lunge successfully, once it was fitted & in use; no dog every "flipped", either. :crazy:

I'm back on the USA-apdt board; i'll ask if anyone has ever seen this, the organization currently has 5K
members, but only about 1/5 are active on the List.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> He couldn't get it off, [but] it [tightened] while he wore it...
> I didn't like that, so I swapped to the brand he wears, now.


Ah! - i see.
Nope, not an issue i've ever had - & i ordered mine wholesale price, 10 to 12 at a time, all sizes.
That stocked me for months or even a year, depending.

Did U return it? - I would.  It was definitely not usable, i'd want a refund.
 In full, thanks. 
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...
> It's not recommended that *Dobermans wear head collars*. He's got a thicker neck because he's a mix
> but he pretty much looks like a fat Dobe... I use a headcollar for vet trips so I can secure his head easier, that's
> the only time I use the headcollar...


I don't know who came up with that; I've put headcollars on sighthounds who wanted to kill every cat they saw,
& they had lo-o-o-ong slim necks, & lo-o-o-o-ong slim heads, & 60 to 90# bodies; none ever had a neck injury.

I've used headcollars on Wolfhounds, both Irish & Scottish; big sighthounds, long slim necks, no injuries.
I've had Great Danes, who were wannabe dog-killers, on headcollars; no Wobbler's ensued, either.

I swear, ppl dream up these, _"oh, this breed can't POSSIBLY... _____ ..."_
Most of the time, it's malarkey. :thumbdown:

U can't allow a dog *who may lunge* to have a huge length of leash to lunge WITH; a big loop of slack is bad.
At the same time, U don't EVER keep the leash taut - the whole point is to relax the leash when the dog is
not pulling, & if EITHER of U pulls or adds tension, the headcollar comes into play.
.
.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> I don't know who came up with that; I've put headcollars on sighthounds who wanted to kill every cat they saw,
> & they had lo-o-o-ong slim necks, & lo-o-o-o-ong slim heads, & 60 to 90# bodies; none ever had a neck injury.
> 
> I've used headcollars on Wolfhounds, both Irish & Scottish; big sighthounds, long slim necks, no injuries.
> ...


Its not malarkey that a dog can seriously injure themselves lunging on a head collar. And in a breed so prone to cervical issues I sure wouldnt risk it.

Sure, I guess you could argue that if the owner uses the head collar ideally perfectly without any mistakes every single time then there is no risk, but I dont know of anyone with that kind of track record of perfection, so again, it becomes a risk assessment thing to me, and just not worth it when there are so many viable options in the way of body harnesses.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Its not malarkey that *a dog can seriously injure themselves* lunging *on a headcollar*.


OK. :yesnod: Where are the vet-attested cases that Premier Pet-Products, formerly an independent maker
of pet leashes, collars, harnesses, AND headcollars, have been asking for since... what? 1990?...

They have had a standing offer for any evidence of a dog injured by a Gentle-Leader, that passes
muster by a vet as caused by the headcollar. To my knowledge, there's never been a case brought.

PPP was bought up & swallowed by Radio-Pet, now known as "Pet-Safe", which sounds so much nicer. :thumbdown:
"Pet-Safe" is still the biggest manufacturer of shock-collars & underground fences / shock-fences in the USA -
which is why so many trainers, myself included, were stunned when the PPP founder & majority owner
sold her company to RP / PS, the shock-collar maker -- as the whole backstory of PPP was producing
non-aversive, safe, quality products for dogs & cats, or other pets [flight harnesses for birds, etc].

PPP made my all-time favorite H-harness, the SURE-FIT - which true to its name, fit every dog I ever
put it on; it had FIVE buckles & slides, & could be fitted like a custom product. Of course, RP / PS dumped
it from their product line, a few months after buying / drowning PPP. :nonod:

PPP also manufactured the Calming-Cap - another excellent product, simple & very helpful.
The inventor took back the rights when RP / PS bought up PPP, & it's being made now [i think] by the maker
of ThunderShirts. [i prefer the Anxiety-Wrap, i like the synthetic stretchy mesh, rather than T-shirt cotton.
In Tidewater, many owners complained their dogs couldn't wear the ThunderShirts outdoors in warm
weather - they'd get overheated.]


ouesi said:


> ... I guess you could argue that *if the owner uses the headcollar ideally - perfectly, with no mistakes
> every single time - then there's no risk, but I dont know of anyone with that kind of track record of perfection*,
> so again, it becomes... risk assessment... to me, and just not worth it when there are so many viable options
> in the way of body harnesses.


If U prefer harnesses, U don't have to dam* headcollars to say that.  I like front-clip harnesses,
particularly for MANAGING dogs that i'm going to transition onto headcollars - the front-clips are terrific
Mgmt options; but for accuracy of control & taking a dog's eyes off X, nothing replaces a headcollar.

I've never demanded that ppl be perfect - or that humans attain sainthood, or be paragons of ability.

And my clients have often been folks who had to think, in order to chew gum & walk at the same time. 
Not saying they're stoopid or gratuitously klutzy - just average folks who aren't ballet prima-donnas,
Olympic athletes, Oscar-winning actors with terrific body consciousness, etc.

Nobody's dog was hurt by a headcollar, among my clients - in over 2 decades. And no, my clients weren't
_"perfect every time"_ or super-conscientious, either - EXCEPT that none of them combined an extendible lead
with that headcollar, because i said that if they did, i'd hunt 'em down after death, & haunt their sorry a$$es. :lol:
I meant it then; i still do. :biggrin: Some things never change.
.
.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Just my two - penneth on the heavy, very reactive dog control issue; head collar vs harness.

With Kilo I have found that he is (was??) very much more reactive on a head collar than a harness (feeling of restraint around the head maybe??). I can easily hold him on a Mekuti harness or Perfect Fit harness with front ring - he is walked in the Perfect Fit at present. He has really thrown and thrashed himself about in the past and we have been OK. I feel safe and in control with the harnesses.

He is a fair bit heavier than Myles OP and I must admit I did wonder about the wisdom of a harness initially - my hand was forced by some ongoing neck tenderness (I think) from meningitis - but I will never go back to using a collar or head collar for primary control (he wears a collar for tags though).


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> Ah! - i see.
> Nope, not an issue i've ever had - & i ordered mine wholesale price, 10 to 12 at a time, all sizes.
> That stocked me for months or even a year, depending.
> 
> ...


No - I'm a shopkeepers dream, me, I have little piles of things that are supposed to go back for various reason...until they sit there so long that it's too late, lol.



ouesi said:


> Its not malarkey that a dog can seriously injure themselves lunging on a head collar. And in a breed so prone to cervical issues I sure wouldnt risk it.
> 
> Sure, I guess you could argue that if the owner uses the head collar ideally perfectly without any mistakes every single time then there is no risk, but I dont know of anyone with that kind of track record of perfection, so again, it becomes a risk assessment thing to me, and just not worth it when there are so many viable options in the way of body harnesses.


Clearly I am perfect  lol...

But seriously, is there a risk Brock could hurt his neck from having a headcollar on? yes, I suppose there is, but when every walk has the potential to become a horrible situation, I go with what works for us.

I worry far more about the consequences if I lose control of him than I do about longterm effects of a headcollar tbh.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

headcollar harness

Peculiar disagreement

Why not both?


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone.

I appreciate the opinions and advice as always, but I personally can't use a head collar as his main walking collar. I haven't searched for any articles proving or disproving the danger of head collars on dogs with slender necks and/or dogs that are prone to neck issues, I don't need to to know that I'm not comfortable using the head collar as an every day walking collar on Myles.

As far as I'm concerned every collar and harness can cause damage if it's used wrong and can be great if it's used right, there's no proof of damage done to a dog that wears a prong collar or any neck collar properly or a harness properly but everything can be used wrong and cause damage and I don't think I could use the head collar on Myles without causing damage tbh.

When I take him to the vet he wears a head collar. I don't have a problem with them at all and appreciate all collars, I just wouldn't use some and before now I wouldn't have contemplated putting him on a harness but I'll bite the bullet and go against my better judgement and try the Mekuti, I've ordered one online this morning. 

I'd never heard of a calming cap before, is that the one that goes over the eyes and blinds the dog? I don't think I'm comfortable with that, maybe it would be beneficial in the house. Typically he's not concerned when inside, I'm not sure I could put it on him when he's agitated after a walk or something. I'll look more into it and decide soon.

Regards to clickers, I started clicker training him about two years ago using the usual method of click = treat to make him associate it with good things, it was working for a while and he'd look for a treat after hearing the click. I was about to start using it properly (when we're walking or training, I hadn't moved on from teaching him click meant treat yet) and he started getting aggressive when he heard the click. I'm not sure why, I don't remember anything happening to make him growl but maybe 2/5 times he heard the click, he'd growl and look around as if he was looking for a person or dog. I tried to keep going but he ended up getting agitated and scouting out the house when he heard the click. I really don't know why, it disappointed me a bit as he was doing well and responding properly to it for a while. He sometimes does that type of thing when I say "good dog" as well but not as much and not as severe. I think he started associating praise with something he hadn't seen yet being close by, but that doesn't explain why he behaved with the clicker like that.

I don't know how to go about starting up again.

I conditioned him to the muzzles and the head collar in the same way you described teaching him to put on the calming cap, leashedForLife.  It worked well, he's comfortable wearing muzzles.

We play tug all the time, he loves it. In the house he's like a dog possessed but outside he doesn't care too much about treats or the tug even when nothing else is around. I know that fearful dogs are typical of doing that but he doesn't seem scared when we're out, he sniffs around and will complete commands without a problem, even when he's trying to attack something I don't think he's scared. He always just seems annoyed with what's happening, I don't really know why he's like he is, I'm not sure what motivates him to attack because the other dogs can be cowering and trying to get away, strutting up to him, ignoring him completely and he gives the same reaction to all of them, the same with people.

I think if I can work out why he's doing what he's doing then I think I'll be able to get some results but nobody has ever said "this is why he's doing it" they've just shrugged and half-heartedly suggested something before assuring me they didn't really know either.

His tag doesn't really make a noise as dogs in the UK are only required by law to wear one name tag, but it sometimes bangs against the studs on his collar or the chain part of the martingale so I'll maybe look around for a plastic coated tag instead, one of my friends has dogs and she has some weird squishy coating over the tag that makes it last longer and stops the noise.

I read Control Unleashed a few years ago, is Click to Calm based entirely around clickers? I'm also a fan of KikoPup, I've been following her for a few years. 

Going back to the head collar thing before I end this, I don't think it's the head collar that damages the dog, it's the way it's used. As I said, I myself don't think I could properly use one on Myles, so he'd likely become injured. I already have a head collar for him so I'll look more into it and maybe have a go on a normal walk to see how it goes, but I really can't see myself being able to use it properly.



tabulahrasa said:


> I worry far more about the consequences if I lose control of him than I do about longterm effects of a headcollar tbh.


I kind of agree, I am more worried about Myles making contact with another person than I am about him getting hurt as well, but I don't think I could keep going with him if what I'd done previously had caused some damage if there was a better way to do it. It's different if you can use the collar (like you can) with confidence that it's not going to cause damage, but I think I'd be a disaster with a head collar. 

Head collar and harness...Tails and Trails is onto something.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Head collar and harness then you have control over both ends of the body thus you can steer and guide him similar to a horse
As the type and motion of dog you describe can resemble a bucking horse

By walking this way and setting up guided walking routes you can take him thru a dearousal programme thus lowering his levels and increasing his cognition thus ability to retain calm and accept influence

The clicker doesn't work as he is too heightened
In that state clicker has ability to enter same arousal area of the brain that deals with frights
That's just a possibility though


You need to deal with his emotions and arousal level before training techniques


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> headcollar harness
> 
> Peculiar disagreement
> 
> Why not both?


I use both on Thai when I am in a situation that I need to have control of his front end.
I hold the double ended lead like reins (in one hand, but when extra control is needed I use my other hand to have the head whilst the first hand still has his body) so that the head collar only comes into use when it is needed.

I always use a double ended lead with his head collar to either attach to a harness or his collar.

Works for us


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I've tried a headcollar and a harness, it didn't work any better than just the headcollar, so I stopped again.

I wasn't trying to persuade you to use a headcollar over a harness btw, just saying why I use one. I'm of the opinion that different things will work for different people and dogs... I mean there are things I wouldn't use, but when it's headcollar or harness, then nobody is wrong if they prefer one over the other.

I know what has caused my dog's issues, I don't know if it helps or not, lol. He has spinal pain, painkillers have helped, but because it took a while to find the right combination and other health problems have made it complicated he's had lots of time to practice the aggression and he enjoys it, he gets a huge adrenaline rush.

It helps in that it makes it less frustrating for me and it gives me something to tell other people, but it doesn't help to resolve anything really - he has good days and bad days and we're working on more good days, but it's slow going.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Cash still pulls/lunges in the Mekuti harness, so I'm either using it incorrectly which I don't believe I am, or it is still possible for dogs to pull/lunge....you just have more control in managing that behaviour. Don't get me wrong, I like the harness and find myself much more comfortable and at ease using it, but it's certainly not stopped him pulling at times. However, because I use the double ended lead 'doubled' over he has very little slack in the lead and/or leeway. So he walks pretty much solidly beside me the entire time.

I used a head collar on Ty when he was a youngster and no issues. There is a risk of injury in all training tools...even your bog standard collar and lead. But I used two leads making it pretty much impossible for Ty to cause himself damage as I predominately had control of the lead attached to his collar and only used his head collar lead when he needed reminding not to pull forwards.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Cash still pulls/lunges in the Mekuti harness, so I'm either using it incorrectly which I don't believe I am, or *it is still possible for dogs to pull/lunge....you just have more control in managing that behaviour. *Don't get me wrong, I like the harness and find myself much more comfortable and at ease using it, but it's certainly not stopped him pulling at times. However, because I use the double ended lead 'doubled' over he has very little slack in the lead and/or leeway. So he walks pretty much solidly beside me the entire time.
> 
> I used a head collar on Ty when he was a youngster and no issues. There is a risk of injury in all training tools...even your bog standard collar and lead. But I used two leads making it pretty much impossible for Ty to cause himself damage as I predominately had control of the lead attached to his collar and only used his head collar lead when he needed reminding not to pull forwards.


It's definitely still possible for dogs to pull / lunge in any piece of kit out there. It's how you are able to manage those moments whilst training that are key for me.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Dogless said:


> It's definitely still possible for dogs to pull / lunge in any piece of kit out there. It's how you are able to manage those moments whilst training that are key for me.


Agreed. My post was more in reference to MerlinsMum post suggesting a dog can't pull or lunge in the harness. Which is a little misleading.



MerlinsMum said:


> Sounds like a Mekuti harness or similar would be what you are looking for. They are made so that a lunging dog can't lunge, due to the gentle pressure of the harness around the chest area, which prevents the front feet from leaving the ground. That, combined with some determined reward-based training techniques, might be helpful.
> 
> Not all harnesses are the same


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Agreed. My post was more in reference to MerlinsMum post suggesting a dog can't pull or lunge in the harness. Which is a little misleading.


Ah I see.maybe I need another brew .


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Ah I see.maybe I need another brew .


I didn't really make it very clear! Should have maybe quoted MerlinsMum, but I was just putting it out there for my own gain more than anything in case someone told me I was using it wrong! :blushing:


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I don't remember if I mentioned it but I was able to find a plastic Baskerville muzzle (Baskerville Ultra) that has the strap over the head as well. The last muzzle of the same brand that I had didn't have that strap. I'm working out the size Myles needs and then I'll be ordering one, his current nylon + basket combo isn't going to work in the summer.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I wasn't a fan of Click To Calm, seemed very reliant on "watch me" which made my dog a hell of a lot worse. Control Unleashed, imo, gives more options without you having to fight against the environment as much.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I wasn't a fan of Click To Calm, seemed very reliant on "watch me" which made my dog a hell of a lot worse. Control Unleashed, imo, gives more options without you having to fight against the environment as much.


Totally agree with this espesh last line.
Tried watch me on nervous nervous aggressive dogs before and yeh sure teaches dog to watch me instead kicking off but didnt do anything to stop dog being nervous at the thing

Which stands to reason really as you arent letting or getting the dog to look and process his environment therefore the scary thing
So watch me doesn't deal with the CER

My motto is train the emotion first then train the dog


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I wasn't a fan of Click To Calm,* seemed very reliant on "watch me" which made my dog a hell of a lot worse. * Control Unleashed, imo, gives more options without you having to fight against the environment as much.


Ditto - Kilo needs to see what the worrying thing is.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

mylesaminute said:


> I don't remember if I mentioned it but I was able to find a plastic Baskerville muzzle (Baskerville Ultra) that has the strap over the head as well. The last muzzle of the same brand that I had didn't have that strap. I'm working out the size Myle's needs and then I'll be ordering one, his current nylon + basket combo isn't going to work in the summer.


I don't know if this has been mentioned before but have you looked at lurcher racing muzzles?

They often fit dobermans, collies, as well as lurchers themselves (long nosed dogs).

Like THIS ONE

The dog can pant, open their mouth, drink and take treats with it on.

Oh and play with a toy like the nobble ball here (second set of images down with the greyhound proudly showing it in action)

I agree with the recommendation of a strong front fitting harness and double ended lead (and muzzle combo).
There are a number of good front fitting harnesses on the market. The mekuti is a good one. You may also be able to get one custom made for him (inexpensively too)

As a side note, if response to the second to last post (Tails and Trails) on this thread:

It's not strictly true to say that you "train" an emotion, in the sense of operant conditioning and rewarding positive emotional responses... because emotional responses aren't subject to operant conditioning (i.e. rewards and punishment which increase the probability of behaviours being repeated). Behaviours after all, are the result of an emotional response. I.e. the behaviour offered depends how the dog feels (emotional response). 
What we can do is gradually expose the dog to the scary stuff at a distance/level at which he feels safe and introduce nice things at the same time, so that he experiences feeling safe and having a nice time. We aren't as such training him, as offering him experiences where he can have good experiences around previously feared stimuli. As time goes on and he starts to feel better at distances around those things, he may start to feel safe closer to such things. 
Counter-conditioning (subject to classical conditioning).

I know that sounds pedantic, but it's a point worth mentioning because it's important in terms of our expectation of the dog.

There's an article below that might be worth checking out for those interested in this. It focuses on the above point in reference to denouncing the use of aversives when training aggressive dogs (and why they won't work anyway). 
It may also answer the OPs questions re why a prong would be an especially poor choice for her dog.
Compulsion and fear reactive/aggressive dogs- Why science says it can never work (pp.5-7)


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> I wasn't a fan of Click To Calm, seemed very reliant on "watch me" which made my dog a hell of a lot worse. Control Unleashed, imo, gives more options without you having to fight against the environment as much.





Dogless said:


> Ditto - Kilo needs to see what the worrying thing is.


Quite- IMHO "watch me" and "look at that" can often cause quite conflicted responses and often accidentally condition hypervigilency.

With my fearful (been beaten up by other dogs lots) little bitch, I have a cue that means "oh cool- there's a dog down there by the way" ("Oh cool- a doggie") and she can then look for it/or look away (at me)/or do an out-cued look at me, or sniff the floor or whatever she wants. Any option is fine, I let her choose and she gets food dropped for whichever and then we do a little arch around so that if it's an eyebally one she has lots of space.

Basically I don't ask her to do anything; I tell her it's there and she gets food and then we keep to a certain distance so that she feels safe). I might use a "let's go" leash pressure cue to move her away if it comes from nowhere but otherwise, given she's sub-reactive threshold and it's not coming at us fast, I let her choose which behaviours to offer.

Choice is so important


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> Quite- IMHO "watch me" and "look at that" can often cause quite conflicted responses and often accidentally condition hypervigilency.
> 
> With my fearful (been beaten up by other dogs lots) little bitch, I have a cue that means "oh cool- there's a dog down there by the way" ("Oh cool- a doggie") and she can then look for it/or look away (at me)/or do an out-cued look at me, or sniff the floor or whatever she wants. Any option is fine, I let her choose and she gets food dropped for whichever and then we do a little arch around so that if it's an eyebally one she has lots of space.
> 
> Basically I don't ask her to do anything; I tell her it's there and she gets food and then we keep to a certain distance so that she feels safe). I might use a "let's go" leash pressure cue to move her away if it comes from nowhere but otherwise, given she's sub-reactive threshold or it's not coming at us fast, I let her choose which behaviours to offer.


I have had success with the same with Kilo. You are bang on with "watch me" creating hyper vigilance.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ...
> 
> I'd never heard of a Calming-Cap before, *is that the one that goes over the eyes & blinds the dog?*
> I don't think I'm comfortable with that...
> ...


The bit in BOLD?... That would be, "no", :lol:

It is NOT a blindfold - the dog CAN see, walk, move, even run; what the Calming-Cap does is fuzz-out
stuff that's not close by, & as dogs don't have terrific visual acuity but ARE very, very sensitive to _*movement*,_ 
even if it's distant movement, this reduces reactivity.

If U can't see the dog who's moving 50-ft away, or 30-ft away, U cannot react to her or him.
it's that simple - stuff beyond the dog's immediate surroundings is not clearly seen, & can be ignored.

there used to be a wonderful video of an Aus-Shepherd who was a lunging, barking, drooling, mad-eyed maniac
in the car - every vehicle that passed THEM, every vehicle THEY passed, & especially anything with a diesel
engine, was attacked verbally & rushed at violently.

The owner got a Calming-Cap 3-weeks before moving house across 2 states, a daunting overnight trip on the
interstate that would be nerve-wracking with *quiet* dogs, as she had 3 dogs - & 2 cats, a husband, & 2 kids.

She filmed their 'problem child' lying peacefully in the cargo space, head pillowed on a kid's backpack,
half-asleep, thru a very busy break at a rest-stop - with passersby walking by the vehicle, talking, cars pulling
in & out, trucks roaring by on the interstate 40-ft away, etc. Massive - & pleasant - change.
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Okay thanks.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

lemmsy, thanks. Sorry it took so long to address what you said, I've just finished reading the article you posted, thanks for that. Regarding the lurcher racing muzzles, I looked into greyhound muzzles on somebody elses recommendation (earlier in this thread) but ultimately decided on the Baskerville Ultra as the one I found has a strap going over the head. Myles has never slipped out of him muzzle but it looks sturdier imo. 

I did a quick google but couldn't turn up any results, can you get the muzzles you recommended with the strap over the head or would I need to stitch it in myself?


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Have you seen this kind of muzzle? To use on its own, or under or over the Baskerville type?

Proguard Softie Dog Muzzle, Extra Large: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bogdog said:


> Have you seen this kind of muzzle?
> *To use on its own, or under or over the Baskerville type?*
> 
> Proguard Softie Dog Muzzle, Extra Large: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


Pardon me, BogDog -
but did U actually *read the thread* before commenting?

Myles has had his mouth tied-shut by a NYLON TUBE muzzle, the cheap cr*p often used by vets who are
either cheap, lazy, or think,_ "s/he won't be wearing it that long..."_ *for years,* to keep him from barking.

It LIMITS the dog's AIRWAY. Dogs do not *sweat* - anyone who jogs can tell U that their dog can run rings
around them on a cool, 50 to 55'F day - but on a 65'F day, the dog rapidly begins to slow down & work hard,
due to overheating. And that's with ZERO impediments to breathing - dogs must pant freely to maintain a safe
core body-temp.

Humans have no idea what life feels like to a dog when they're too warm; dogs' air-conditioning system is much
less-efficient than our sweating process, & much-more affected by HUMIDITY. I learned more about this when
i lived in Tidewater-VA for over 10-years, the dogs there are dealing with very high humidity year-round; i had to
run my AC 9-mos out of 12 to keep my books from mildewing as they stood on a shelf, & anything leather would
grow literal fur: long thin strands of grey mold. Shoes, belts, any leather.

I got a booster-vaccine for my Akita when we moved there, as a local outbreak was sending dogs to
the hospital with a one-two punch from 2 viruses. It was an awful day, but we took our time walking there,
stayed in shade, i carried water & kept her cool, etc. She got the shot, we left the AC & walked in shade...
& in less than 15-mins, her hindlegs were wobbly, & she was starting to sink in the rear.
Alarmed, i got her back to the vet's; her core-temp had climbed 2 degrees. It wasn't a vaccine-reaction;
it was severe heat-stress, despite my precautions, which included misting her belly with water to run off heat -
it was too sticky to evaporate - which was precisely the problem: her AIRWAY has to evaporate moisture
to carry off heat, & with the humidity over 75%, that wasn't happening.

She lay on the cool tile-floor for over 30-mins before i gave her another cool drink, & we carefully walked home,
on grass as much as possible; PAVING stores heat, & both directly transfers it to paws, & reflects it on bodies.

the above is just another version of same-old-cr*p muzzles; YES, it has a STRIP of mesh. rrr: Whoopee.
THE SIDES & UNDERSIDE are *SOLID*. Dogs don't "breathe" thru their upper muzzles - that's *sinus*; it's BONE.
*Dogs breathe thru the SIDES of their mouths, far more than the itty-bitty fraction where their incisors are;
that's about 1/10th of the jaw length in a long-faced "normal" dog muzzle; GSD, Fox Terrier, whatever size.*

Please don't put that thing on any dog for more than a matter of minutes, & ONLY if s/he has a patent airway,
AND is in cooled environs - *not outdoors*, even in shade, on a day that's over 55'F, & NEVER in a car
*unless it's air-conditioned.*

I'm a certified Vet's-Assistant, & i can't tell U how many dogs i saw over that 12-yr period that were suffering
moderate to severe heat-stress, whose owners weren't even aware of it; *a purple tongue that spoons upward
at the tip* is a very-significant physical symptom that should never be ignored.

*Dogs under stress begin to overheat very quickly;* it's now reached the point
that if a vet pulls out a tube-muzzle for a dog's examination, i write her or him off, & look for someone else.
IMO & IME, it's just that critical; either use a proper basket-muzzle, or U lose my patronage as a pet-owner.

My excellent [woman] vet during my Tidewater years - not the pig-ignorant yahoo who gave my dog her vax
when we first arrived! - told me, _"On a hot day when U're really uncomfortable, *treble that*, & U'll have
some idea of how Ur dog feels."_ :yikes:

Given that on 90'F / over-90% humidity days, i wanted to *lie down* in shade within 10-minutes of exiting
the air-conditioned house, i simply can't imagine how my dog felt.

If someone gave me that muzzle as a gift, i'd burn the sucker - so that no dog would ever have to wear it. :mad5:
.
.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

mylesaminute said:


> lemmsy, thanks. Sorry it took so long to address what you said, I've just finished reading the article you posted, thanks for that. Regarding the lurcher racing muzzles, I looked into greyhound muzzles on somebody elses recommendation (earlier in this thread) but ultimately decided on the Baskerville Ultra as the one I found has a strap going over the head. Myles has never slipped out of him muzzle but it looks sturdier imo.
> 
> I did a quick google but couldn't turn up any results, can you get the muzzles you recommended with the strap over the head or would I need to stitch it in myself?


Sorry, only just saw this.

Re. the lurcher muzzles- no they don't typically come with an overhead strap. Though (and this is just my opinion) I think they are harder to slip than the baskerville ultra, purely because of the design. 
You could certainly add an overhead strap if you felt the need. Equally you could add a halti-link type mechanism, attached to the muzzle under the dog's chin and linked to a flat collar (a bit like THIS, only not as loose, but not restrictive either- dog should be able to move head fully)

I hope the article was useful?

Also just posting this in case of interest as mentioned in another thread:

I don't know if you have looked at calmatives that you can use (alongside, management and keeping him sub-threshold) to reduce stress generally for him). 
I've heard very good things about this particular supplement, which can be used on a long term basis. 
MELATONIN
Melatonin for stress « WebCanine.com

As an aside, it's probably also worth mentioning, that counter to what Joe-public will tell you, your dog doesn't need to go for a "walk" everyday, particularly if in the scheme of things it is detrimental to his health, behaviour, management, rehab etc. On the flipside, having "walk free days" in which he gets toilet breaks and mooches in the garden and mental stimulation instead, will have a positive impact in as far as preventing rising stress levels and allowing the chemical changes in his body caused by his response to any stressors encountered over the past few days, to level out again.

The analogy in this blog post explains it well: 
Reactive Champion: The Stress Bathtub

Also, another blog post here:
Beyond Daily Dog Walks: Uba's Story | notes from a dog walker

There's loads you can do with him at home; clicker training (trick training), scent detection, scent games, whippet games in the garden, food puzzles etc etc

Hope this helps 

ETA: Edited. reread


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks lemmsy. I've sort of looked at medication to calm him but he's not normally stressed in the house, it seems kind of redundant. I'm thinking about the DAP spray, I could spray it on his collar or lead and he'll get the effects of it outside. I used to have the plugin and it made no difference but the spray makes more sense.

The article was interesting, I haven't read it all yet. It focused a lot on fear and behaviours stemming from fear and I don't think Myles is scared, I don't know what he is but he never seems scared, I don't see why he would have associated anything with fear either as when his behaviours started showing he'd always had positive experiences with dogs and people. It was only after he started trying to eat everything he saw that dogs would respond aggressively or people would shout, him being scared doesn't make much sense. People don't offer a reason for his fear when they tell me he's scared, they just repeat themselves when I ask for elaboration mostly. I'm a fan of Ivan Pavlov, classical conditioning is something I've heard of before, a lot of the things talked about in the article reminded me some things I already knew but had forgotten. 

Even though I don't think Myles is scared I've been using methods that could be applied to fearful aggressive dogs because I don't know what else to do with him, I've been using a consistent method for 5 years and work using PR.

I understand what you mean about dogs not needing walks every day, my other dogs never got 7 walks a week. If Myles goes a day without a walk and I replace it with something else like fetch or tug then when I take him back out he tends to be more likely to redirect onto me when he reacts to something else, it's not really a problem because of the muzzle but it's not nice and I tend to have a hard time wanting to take him back home when he's tried to eat my face.  

I did used to skip walks in the week but stopped when I noticed he was better with me when he had a walk a day. 

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out when I've got a minute.  

I've ordered his muzzle this morning, I decided to go with a metal Baskerville with over-the-head strap instead of the plastic one, this one looks more comfortable for the dog because it has thick padding on the top of his nose. I initially wanted a plastic one because it would hurt less when he slams his head around but it hurts anyway, so why not get one that's more comfortable for him to smash into things LOL. 

The harness came this morning as well, we have dog class on Tuesday and I'm going to wait to use it until then, it'll be a more controlled place to try it out for the first time and Steve can help me out if I'm a complete disaster with it.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Took Myles to class tonight, the muzzle I ordered hasn't arrived yet but I put him on the harness and attached a safety line to his normal collar, the harness seems kind of tacky and looks like it would buckle pretty easily. It wasn't so bad, he can pull a lot easier on it than he can on the collar but at least it's not pressing against his trachea. 

A problem is that when he lunges the front clip makes him turn around to face me instead of what he's trying to attack, he gets pretty aggy with it and I had trouble getting him away from me sometimes. I figure I'll be able to have him on two leads, one on the harness and one on the collar so that when he turns on me I can pull him away with the one on his collar, the idea of switching equipment was so I'd have less to put on him but I'd rather clutter him up than get a solid muzzle to the face, LOL.

I had a pretty bad day at work so that probably didn't help, Myles wasn't his normal self at class, he gets weird if I'm in a bad mood. 

I've read up a bit on the melatonin supplement, a trainer I saw years and years ago briefly mentioned it but at the time I wanted to change his behaviour permanently instead of just drug him, I assumed he was just ill-behaved due to something I was doing, now that it's more of a long-term thing it seems like a decent idea.

I'll read more into it and speak to the vets next time to see what they think, they all have different opinions about most things but the atmosphere is good and I'll be able to compare thoughts from them and decide. I can't see any side effects that would be problematic for me, who knows though.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Which harness did you get? 

With the Mekuti you can clip the lead onto the shoulder, pass it through the centre ring, and if needed, pass it through the other shoulder ring on the other side.

This is the arrangement which works wonders on dogs who lunge. The lead forms a band around the whole front of the dog, and when they try to go up on two legs, they can't because the pressure of the band puts them off balance.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> Which harness did you get?
> 
> With the Mekuti you can clip the lead onto the shoulder, pass it through the centre ring, and if needed, pass it through the other shoulder ring on the other side.
> 
> This is the arrangement which works wonders on dogs who lunge. The lead forms a band around the whole front of the dog, and when they try to go up on two legs, they can't because the pressure of the band puts them off balance.


I'm not too sure the mekuti people would appreciate your testimony

They are forever selling it as a harness that promotes balance!
And you will often hear mekuti people criticize other harnesses like the easy walk harness as they make the dog feel unbalanced

There is another probable reason, it seems to me, why myles had those troubles in class tonight, and its not to do with management of equipment, I suspect choice of equipment was moot, the reaction would have been the same on a mekuti, and I love mekutis!
I suspect it was threshold v environment, t


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> I'm not too sure the mekuti people would appreciate your testimony
> They are forever selling it as a harness that promotes balance!


On the contrary, I bought mine at a Mekuti stand at a large dog event, fitted by the manufacturer. The fact that it prevents lunging in this manner is one of their selling points. It is, after all, about balance, and non-balance too, if you think about it.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> On the contrary, I bought mine at a Mekuti stand at a large dog event, fitted by the manufacturer. The fact that it prevents lunging in this manner is one of their selling points. It is, after all, about balance, and non-balance too, if you think about it.


if you read the ttouch manual, you will note the irony.

im not knocking the theory of knocking the dog off-balance in the context you describe such as the one you describe by myles.
however, if that is the strategy required, then its a whole lots easier with a front clipping harness such as an easy walk.

but the point is. as a strategy, its moot anyway, i suspect nothing of the sort would be achieved by a dog like myles in the class anyway.

the peoblem is beyond threshold anyway, which i think IS the class.
a dog like myles needs 'balance'; a sub threshold harmony, a de-arousal programme.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I got one of the mekuti harnesses for him, it does make it harder for him to leave the ground but he still tries to lunge and gets angry when he ends up facing me. 

The problem is going above threshold but his threshold is too high, he doesn't react to things if they're ages and ages away unless I praise him, he must think it's some kind of invitation when I praise him. I worked hard with BAT for the first maybe 3 years but never shortened his threshold, I can't praise him verbally or physically he reacts to his "triggers" if I do that and he won't take treats or toys when we're outside so there's no way I can see to encourage his good behaviour atm. That's why I started clicker training with him, I was going to use it to shorten his threshold but he started getting weird with the clicker so I had to stop, I don't know how to start up again.

I'm not trying to stay below threshold anymore, I go to the class so I can confer with Steve and be around people that know me and Myles and keep their dogs away without me having to ask, it's nice to be able to relax a little when I'm out with Myles sometimes and the class means as long as I keep him on lead I can pretty much switch off knowing nobody is going to come over. 

It doesn't do Myles any good but not much seems to, the class is more for me than him.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I would still look at trying some meds on him.

He may not seem to need them so much at home, but they may just help to keep him less stressed when out.

Someone on a thread the other day remarked how effective they think a med had been on their dog, but it's something that has to build up in the system.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> I would still look at trying some meds on him. He may not seem to need them so much at home,
> but they may just help to keep him less-stressed when out.
> 
> Someone on a thread the other day remarked how effective they think a med had been on their dog,
> but [that] it's something that has to build up in the dog's system.


Probly an SSRI - a number of psychoactive meds are very effective on dogs for various behavioral issues,
& often don't have as many or as severe side-effects as they can in humans. :thumbsup: Big plus -
i tend to have adverse drug-reactions, so i appreciate anything that reduces the risk of side-FX.
[were it possible, i'd be happy to become a dog in order to avoid ADRs.  ]
.
.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

The classes...are you getting enough from them to warrant going?

I stopped going, I enjoyed them, but he was so stressed, then I was stressed too, it wasn't making any difference to any of his issues, my behavioural specialist ended up going to me, why are you putting both of you through it when it's not making any difference - and I suddenly thought, why am I?

At some point I'm going to sign up for one to one sessions with him, but we've had a rough year, so it's not been the best time.

Ignore me if you really really do enjoy them, but when I sat and thought about, I realised it just wasn't worth it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> The classes... do you get enough from them to warrant going?
> 
> I stopped going; I enjoyed them, but he was so stressed, then I was stressed, too...


 umm - U did read those posts, yes?

the OP said it's one of the very-few times when she AND he can relax, as everyone attending 
knows about her dog's issues, & gives them plenty of room.

Just being able to be around other dogs -Without- being provoked into reacting would be worth it -
IMO, if this were my dog. It's just a break from his usual pattern of being pushed past his tolerance,
but it's also an opportunity to be unmolested & safe, for both human & dog.
.
.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

mylesaminute said:


> I got one of the mekuti harnesses for him, it does make it harder for him to leave the ground but he still tries to lunge and gets angry when he ends up facing me.
> 
> The problem is going above threshold but his threshold is too high, he doesn't react to things if they're ages and ages away unless I praise him, he must think it's some kind of invitation when I praise him. I worked hard with BAT for the first maybe 3 years but never shortened his threshold, I can't praise him verbally or physically he reacts to his "triggers" if I do that and he won't take treats or toys when we're outside so there's no way I can see to encourage his good behaviour atm. That's why I started clicker training with him, I was going to use it to shorten his threshold but he started getting weird with the clicker so I had to stop, I don't know how to start up again.
> 
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> umm - U did read those posts, yes?
> 
> the OP said it's one of the very-few times when she AND he can relax, as everyone attending
> knows about her dog's issues, & gives them plenty of room.
> ...


I think it may have been the bolded that made tabularhasa contribute; I did wonder too as myles is still lunging aggressively there. Obviously the OP thinks classes are worth it but throwing ideas into the pot's never a bad thing really, even for others reading.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> umm - U did read those posts, yes?
> 
> the OP said it's one of the very-few times when she AND he can relax, as everyone attending
> knows about her dog's issues, & gives them plenty of room.
> ...


Yes I read them...I also read that he wasn't under threshold and was just saying, sometimes it's worth having a sit down and thinking about why you're doing something and if it is worth doing.

They might be, but there's no harm in questioning it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I think it may have been the bolded [*"It doesn't do Myles any good, it's more for me..."*]
> that made TabulaRhasa contribute [that]; I wondered, too, as Myles still lunges aggressively [in class].
> 
> Obviously the OP thinks classes are worth it, but throwing ideas into the pot's never a bad thing, really,
> even for others reading.





tabulahrasa said:


> Yes, I read them... also that he's not under threshold, & was just saying, sometimes it's worth having
> a sit-down [to think] about why you're doing something, & if it is worth doing.
> 
> They might be [worth doing], but there's no harm in questioning it.


i am SO sorry - i did see, _"not under threshold"_, but i *missed* _"Myles lunges aggressively
while in class"._ I still can't find it - Myles-A-Minute, could U please explain what happens in class?

My concept of it was that Myles wasn't reacting [not up on 2 legs, not lunging / snarling] BECAUSE
all other attendees know he's got dog : dog issues, & they give him space. Did I get that wrong? -

Is he reacting with serious aggro-displays, at least a few times [1 to 3 times] during each class?

Or is it rare that he tantrums at class? [1 or 2x per month, with weekly or even bi-weekly classes.]

I apologize, i did think i had some idea of what was going on, & now i think i missed key info. 
I'm totally confused - but then, i just spent 3 days in someone else's home, sporadically shoveling snow
& with none of my orienting day / night cycles. :lol: I awoke at 2:30 or 3 every night, & & *stayed* awake
until 6 or 7-AM, before getting another hr or 90-mins of additional sleep - so my brain may not be working
very well. 
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

The classes are literally just for me to be able to unwind a bit. They don't do anything for Myles, he's the same now as he was when we started coming to classes. 

He mostly lays down, the class goes for an hour. When we first go in to the training area which is a field he'll be barking and lunging and trying to attack but after maybe ten minutes he'll lay down wherever it is I've decided to stand with him out of the way of everyone else. On Tuesday he was bad, he tried to attack quite a lot, normally he doesn't move too much but on Tuesday he kept getting up, jumping around and laying down again, he probably did that six or seven times.

I think it was because I was in a mood from work that day, he'll normally settle down after ten minutes and stay quiet until we leave, when we're walking out he'll be trying to maul everyone again. I'll normally stay for a little while after I've put him in the car so I can talk to everyone and say hi to their dogs, Myles will be barking and trying to break out of the car until everyone else goes home. He does that if I take him out in the car with me anyway, I can be at the petrol station topping up and he'll start being aggressive when I get out of the car. I'm starting to think he feels entitled to do that type of thing, I never corrected him when he was younger for anything I'd just ignore any bad behaviour because I was trying the PR method, I'm not sure if he'd have been any better had I used any other method of handling on him and I don't think switching methods will help at this point so I'm sticking to the least stressful one for me (PR).

I think if I'd have let him know he wasn't allowed to behave aggressively the first time he did he would have adapted to the better way I showed him instead of "choosing" which way to react himself, the way I wanted him to or the way that gave him the better thrill. I feel bad about it and don't know if I regret choosing to try a different method to what I was raised with, maybe he'd be a happier dogs and be able to have fun if I'd have stuck to what I knew or maybe he'd have been just as bad.

I am definitely thinking about the melatonin, I just want to understand more about it before trying it out.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> *I think if I'd have let him know he wasn't allowed to behave aggressively* the first time he did he would have adapted to the better way I showed him instead of "choosing" which way to react himself, the way I wanted him to or the way that gave him the better thrill.


How would you have communicated to him that this behaviour wasn't wanted? Cos there's the issue... Many people would have bellowed at the dog, maybe a loud "NO!!" and behaved in an intimidating manner, which _might_ have got the desired response, but did nothing to address the reasons _why_ the dog was doing it. Not saying you did, but it's a very common thing to do (guilty myself in the past).

Now, if the dog was doing it from anxiety or fear, i.e. trying to make something it didn't like go away, then being told off or shouted at would break the behaviour patterns yes - but also give the dog something else to fear. Likewise, if it was genuine aggression, then aggression from you would probably fuel it, even if you succeeded in making the dog stop.

It's true that many dogs do get hooked on an adrenaline rush when allowed to behave in certain ways. This is part of why looking at thresholds is so important and being able to recognise it - or more usefully, noticing the tiny signs when the dog is approaching its threshold, and either backing off then or using a counter-conditioner.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> umm - U did read those posts, yes?
> 
> the OP said it's one of the very-few times when she AND he can relax, as everyone attending
> knows about her dog's issues, & gives them plenty of room.
> ...


myles said his dog was the opposite to relaxed in class
before he posted this, you could tell from an earlier post this was most likely the case.
myles said he only goes for his benefit, but its not doing his dog any favours

having studied all myles posts on this thread, i have already worked out in my head a programme i would apply to myles, if he were my dog
i have dealt with a few dogs that alike to myles
i would be running an initial dearousal programme which definitely wouldnt include training clubs, but thats just me


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> i would be running an initial dearousal programme which definitely wouldnt include training clubs, but thats just me


I'd be inclined to take the dog out of classes as well. And have done. The more the dog is allowed to practice these behavioural patterns, the more it will continue.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I think it's normal for people with problem dogs to doubt the method they used or the way they dealt with things, my parents would have just stopped the unwanted behaviour, just saying "no" or "enough" would stop the dogs I had growing up from progressing in their bad behaviour but with Myles I just redirected and ignored, I feel guilty about that. I'd feel guilty about any other method I used if Myles had turned out the same as he is now though. I think it's normal to feel like that, I've never had a dog with extreme behavioural issues before.

Before I met Steve I'd stopped going to all training clubs and taking Myles anywhere that could be social (there used to be a private field behind my house where I could run him but I moved home) and it didn't improve or change his behaviour in any way, it just meant I saw it less so didn't feel so bad. 

I've done the isolation thing for just under a year before and it got the same result as everything else I've tried over the last five years, I didn't expect it to improve him any I just did it because it made my life easier. How would isolating him help? 

I understand about the threshold, I worked with BAT for a while. He doesn't have a set threshold, I've tried shortening it in the past several times and been unsuccessful, sometimes the person or dog can be 30 feet away before he tries attacking and sometimes he'll pay no mind to them until they're right next to us and then he'll try biting. Sometimes he'll see a dog all the way across the field and go insane, I don't know what makes him decide how close they can get before he attacks. If he knows we're moving away from the people or dogs (like when we're at a road, I always cross to the other side when I see people approaching) then as soon as I start to move away he'll start trying to attack, I have to be careful then because he'll try jumping up me and will get aggressive towards me. If we keep walking toward the person or dog then he'll just be aggressive toward them and maybe catch me by mistake (while trying to get the other dog/person).

I'm not sure why he does it. I can't place it. I can't decide what to do until I know why he's being like this. Everything I've tried has been a shot in the dark really. I try to stick with techniques for a good few months before trying something different but if they get a more negative reaction from him then I drop the technique, I don't know if that's detrimental or not.

I appreciate all of the comments and advice, I didn't expect to get this kind of response when I signed up, I don't normally do "forums". Initially this thread was to help me make a decision but I am glad everyone's helped out in other ways even if they haven't necessarily helped change Myles. Someone is going to benefit from this thread one day so thank you.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I think you have done well, and taken on board a lot of things. Do continue with Steve!!!

There can come a time though, when you have to accept the dog you have, not the dog you want.

It means there are limitations, management processes, ifs buts and maybes, but try to find a way to enjoy the dog you have. If it means taking him to a 1-1 agility session once a week with no other dogs - then do it. Or sign up for a tracking/scentwork tutorial - again, most will do 1-1s. And tracking is 1-1 anyway.... most dogs love it, and they can even do it with a muzzle on. As it is usually done in remote fields without other dogs or people around, then it can be done without a muzzle. 

It does get to the stage when, if you have an awkward dog, just finding things he can do id the best way forward. Set him up for success 

I can't walk either of mine in parks or populated fields... for various reasons. It gives me the chance to explore less populated places, with maybe the chance for a bit of off-lead when I am well and truly away from people. But what rocks the dogs' boats more is the 1-1 agility session once a week, and for one, the scentwork and tracking. Once they are really using their bodies and nose away from stressors and upsetting things, then you do see a new dog come out, and have something to build on.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> The classes are literally just for me to be able to unwind a bit. They don't do anything for Myles, he's the same now as he was when we started coming to classes.
> 
> He mostly lays down, the class goes for an hour. When we first go in to the training area which is a field he'll be barking and lunging and trying to attack but after maybe ten minutes he'll lay down wherever it is I've decided to stand with him out of the way of everyone else. On Tuesday he was bad, he tried to attack quite a lot, normally he doesn't move too much but on Tuesday he kept getting up, jumping around and laying down again, he probably did that six or seven times.
> 
> ...


this post just says to me (along with the rest of the thread) that you are continually maintaining routines and participating in activities for myles which are essentially geared toward keeping him perpetually over-threshold. his threshold is quite low anyway. it strikes me myles has very little downtime ftom his perpetually over-aroused state of being. hence why he is so quick to react to everything, including re-directing upon yourself.
you could use drug therapy to combat it, but wouldnt it make sense first to change the whole way you see the issue and then replace the high degree of arousing routines with de-arousing routines?
such as avoiding multi-dog training clubs, not entertaining the idea of having foster dogs in your home, so on, so forth?
my motto in my work is train the emotion, then train the dog.
thus if you started myles on a new regime of a de-arousal programme, and did that for at least a month, you would start to bring his levels down?
then you build upon that?
if you look at stress levels at a percentage 1 to 100.
say the average person's baseline is 50%?
then that person encounters an isolated stressful incident.
there stress level goes up to say 65-70%?
at the downtime doesnt take long, unless there is another stressful incident not long after (this is called stacking).
then say you have a person whom has a high stress level?
his baseline is maybe 70%
then a stressful incident occurs.
so he will shoot up to 85-90%
thus the intensity of that guy's response is fiercer than the last guys.
also his downtime takes longer.
also, what constitutes a stressful incident (trigger) for this guy is also lower than the last guy.
in turn this means another stressful event is likely to occur not long after, and again, and again. thus stacking is much more likely to occur with guy number 2.
now for guy number two this is his normal state of being

i think myles is guy number two
and all the time he is guy number, cognition is impaired. thus response to external influence is impaired, thus 'hearing' instructions and following them is impaired. he is essentially distilled down to a reacting machine


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> I think you have done well, and taken on board a lot of things. Do continue with Steve!!!
> .


different steve to the one we thought


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> different steve to the one we thought


Ah.....

But there's a possible new option for the OP......


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm going to ignore the comment about entertaining the idea of having a foster dog, that's quite close to home for me.

He gets dog training classes for an hour on Tuesdays. He gets two walks a day, one from 4am-5am and one from 11pm-12pm. For the morning walk he can be off lead but for the evening one it's too dark. I rarely see people on them, I'll see more people in the morning when it starts to get a bit lighter. 

How do I avoid seeing the ones I do see? I don't have a field right in my back garden any more, I have to walk to the one I'm allowed to exercise him on and it's the walk to and from the field where I see other dogs, no other dogs or unauthorised people are allowed in the field I can run him in. It's a farmer's field and he's given me permission to take Myles onto it when no animals are grazing. He's told me that cattle are going to be in there in the summer so I'm going to have to start taking him to the normal park for the summer months so I'll see more people and dogs especially in the morning.

I've had a few trainers in 1-2-1 lessons but it's just me staring at a person Myles is trying to attack for an hour, maybe he'd settle down after a few weeks but he seems worse when it's just me, him and one or two other people. The more people and dogs the better he is, he's still bad around loads of people and dogs but he's not constantly trying to attack them like he does when there's just a few of us.

I don't want to stop going to classes, it's the only time I can settle down myself but I can stop for a while to see if it helps. I don't know how I'm supposed to keep him isolated from all other people and dogs, I have to leave the house and he has to come with me or else he barks constantly at home and upsets the neighbours. At the moment my work hours fall in line with my neighbours being out so it's not so bad, I get home about 45 minutes after one of my neighbours and they've told me they don't mind the barking for that long which I'm thankful for.

I am looking into medicating him. 

I'm not sure he'd concentrate well in any 1-2-1 classes for the reasons above but I'll look to see if I can find any scent work trainers close by and maybe speak to one to see what the situation is, Myles is part Dobermann so that might be something he's good at.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> The classes are literally just for me to be able to unwind a bit.


Find the right kind of activity to do with him 1-1, and I promise you will both unwind, enormously! 

Even if it is a place where he can be himself, with no other dogs or distractions, with a nice easy-going trainer who understands dogs with issues, you'll see him in a different light. And he will love it. What have you got to lose?



> I'm not sure he'd concentrate well in any 1-2-1 classes for the reasons above but I'll look to see if I can find any scent work trainers close by and maybe speak to one to see what the situation is, Myles is part Dobermann so that might be something he's good at.


 He probably won't to start with, it takes time. But importantly you are making a set time once a week, for his good and your own. His weekly playtime, if you like - where he has no stressors, and you have none either, and where if - IF - you can persuade him to have a bit of fun jumping over some obstacles or finding toys or food in the long grass, it's all good fun for you both. There are loads of dogs out there with Myles's issues - but a lot of them do find something to "do" in a positive environment... and it really does help.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I have been researching Steve Mann since I learned our two Steves are different Steves.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> I'm going to ignore the comment about entertaining the idea of having a foster dog, that's quite close to home for me.
> 
> He gets dog training classes for an hour on Tuesdays. He gets two walks a day, one from 4am-5am and one from 11pm-12pm. For the morning walk he can be off lead but for the evening one it's too dark. I rarely see people on them, I'll see more people in the morning when it starts to get a bit lighter.
> 
> ...


sorry myles

the comment about foster wasnt meant as a personal
apologies if it came over that eay
but the point is to not ignore
what im trying to explain is that the remedy for myles involves an entire shift of how you consider the situation.
having dealt with countless dogs like myles whom inhabit that high baseline state of being i detailed in my last post, then i think the first step in the process is to completely have a different consciousness the dog you live with, which means re-appraising every current choice and decision you make.
thus, for myles, a dog sharing his home would only feed his perpetual heightened state as multi-dog classes do, and would be counter-intuitive to an initial de-arousal programme

no offence intended


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting you stop classes if they're worth it for you, just asking if they are...because when I actually sat and thought about it, they weren't for me.

Mine has no predictable reaction to dogs either, sometimes he's ok ten feet away, sometimes he's not, sometimes he'll let dogs run right up to him, sometimes if he can see one in the distance then he's on high alert. Trying to move him can also set him off and I get jumped at for being the obstacle stopping him getting to the dog.

It's um, interesting, lol.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> I'm going to ignore the comment about entertaining the idea of having a foster dog, that's quite close to home for me.
> 
> He gets dog training classes for an hour on Tuesdays. He gets two walks a day, one from 4am-5am and one from 11pm-12pm. For the morning walk he can be off lead but for the evening one it's too dark. I rarely see people on them, I'll see more people in the morning when it starts to get a bit lighter.
> 
> ...


sorry myles

the comment about foster wasnt meant as a personal
apologies if it came over that eay
but the point is to not ignore
what im trying to explain is that the remedy for myles involves an entire shift of how you consider the situation.
having dealt with countless dogs like myles whom inhabit that high baseline state of being i detailed in my last post, then i think the first step in the process is to completely have a different consciousness the dog you live with, which means re-appraising every current choice and decision you make.
thus, for myles, a dog sharing his home would only feed his perpetual heightened state as multi-dog classes do, and would be counter-intuitive to an initial de-arousal programme

no offence intended

PS - its not about isolation, thats not the point.

its about starting with a de-arousal programme which includes a guided walking calming technique, then once the levels have lowered to a workable baseline, which could take couple months, you start building up to introducing stimulus again


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Doesn't that involve isolating him from the things he reacts to?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> Doesn't that involve isolating him from the things he reacts to?


like i said, the point isnt 'isolation', the point is de-arousal.
the way to think about it is to say you remove triggers and environments that contribute to the state.

then what i do is perform guided walking exercises, these are similar to ttouch groundwork, but on a normal walk.
do that for number weeks first, then take the next step.
so yes, even in the most controlled environment you can encounter a trigger, but if you are already working on calming exercises, then that helps.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I did wonder (from info in previous posts and description of near-miss moments with the trainer) if there had been some Steve based confusion. 

I think only you can make the decision whether to continue with the classes with him. It does sound very much like it causes him to rehearse getting himself in a state alot. Given that itself, it would probably be enough for me to stop bringing him or at the least making changes in the environment for him, to make it less stressful for him. 

And incidentally, it very much is a stress response. When a dog gets itself into that state of arousal and reactivity, it is distressed. 

As an example, you mention he launches himself at things he sees when travelling in the car. 

How does he travel in the car? Behind a dog guard? 

Really, if he is reacting to visual stimuli he can see from the car, he needs to not be able to see those stimuli. That's the first step to breaking the behaviour chain and the rehearsed stress induced responses. 
You answer is a covered crate in the back of your car (this is something you can progress with in the future with a mannersminder for rewarding non-reactivity to visual stimuli). 

Also in response to your earlier question/comment about him missing walks and being worse the next day when a walk is exchanged for a long game of tug or fetch... 
I'm not too surprised. Those are quite highly vamped activities, which in excess can increase overall stress levels. Playing an extra long game off fetch instead of a walk, isn't majorly beneficial. A shorter game to practice impulse control and some settling after is great. It depends greatly on how it is done.
The sorts of things you want to be doing with him on his quiet days, I'd imagine are activities such as scent games (tracking, detection), offering raw meating bones for chewing (positive chemical/hormonal effects), games that cater to instinctive behaviour, work on settling, teaching behaviours that are useful for his general management/behaviourally (behaviours you can cue as alternative behaviours etc). 

Remind me, did you say he had had a thorough blood panel done (including full thyroid panel)?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks for this, it gives me a much, much better visual of what happens at class. :thumbup:


mylesaminute said:


> ...classes are literally just for me to be able to unwind... They do nothing for Myles; he's the same now
> as he was, when we [began] classes.
> 
> He mostly lies down; the class lasts an hour. *When we first enter the training area, which is a field,
> ...


in that case, how determined are U *not* to use a Calming-Cap, as most of this does seem to be a reaction
to SEEING other dogs? -- If just reducing his visual depth of perception [how far he sees] reduces his reactivity,
is that worth the purchase-price, plus the time spent to introduce & habituate it inside the house & under very
controlled, calm circs - while he's happy / busy, such as wearing it to eat 2x a day?

Personally, i would *not* allow him to act-out for 10-minutes; we'd be out of the room the 1st-time he even
looked hard at another dog, long before the lunge / bark stage; slight hackles, or if i saw his PUPILS widen
slightly [a subtle sign of stress / anxiety], or if his *mouth went from open / relaxed to closed,* that's all
it would take for me to remove him immediately; a cheerful, _"Let's go!..."_, & out the door, every single time,
with that previously-practiced, cued, emergency-U-turn we've done at home, on walks, in the garden, or at
random moments, WITHOUT other dogs within sight or sound - to get it down fluently.

I might enter that room 10 times in 5-minutes, & stay less than 10-seconds each time before i see stress,
& we're gone till he's sane again - pupils shrunk, mouth open, face relaxed, body curving / not rigid, posture
open - no Sphinx-pose downs, ready to leap up; no up-on-toes challenging stance; no hypervigilance.


mylesaminute said:


> ...*Tuesday... was bad*, he tried to attack quite a lot; *normally he doesn't move too much, but [that
> night], he got up, jumped around, & lay down again -- probably... six or seven times.
> I think... because I was in a mood... that day*...


if he's that much *worse* when U're 'in a mood', why not leave him home, & go solo to class?
handle someone else's dog; borrow one from a neighbor or relative, have some fun, dump the mood,
& go back home in a much-better frame of mind, to take him for a walk or jog him, whatever.


mylesaminute said:


> ...normally he settles after 10-minutes & is quiet 'til we leave; when we walk out, he tries to maul everyone again.


that sounds like sensitivity to change.

there are dogs who are fine as long as U *sit still -* don't move Ur arm to pick up a cup of java,
don't cross or uncross legs, don't bend over to pick up anything U've dropped, don't for God's sake,
COUGH or sneeze... basically, sit still & breathe quietly, & don't look at the dog. 

If U do anything more than blink - they lose it. Sound like Myles?


mylesaminute said:


> I normally stay for a bit after putting him in the car, [to] talk to everyone & say hi to their dogs;
> *Myles barks & trying to break out of the car until everyone else [leaves].*


Does he have a shipping-crate? - The airline-kennel type?
I'd put the crate upside-down, windows on the BOTTOM half, & put him in it - so he can't see out of the car.
I'd also park the car in shade, even in winter, so that i could leave the windows closed & not worry he'd
be too warm. Is there a carport or roofed entry? - That would work.

The more he REHEARSES this behavior, the more entrenched the habit, the faster the reaction [fluency],
& the LESS stimulus he needs to prompt the reaction. He has to STOP doing it - being prompted to react.
That's the point of Calming-Caps & other stimulus-reducing tools: get the dog below their threshold, stop the
constant practice of X happens, i do Y, then the owner does Z, etc.


mylesaminute said:


> He does that... in the car... anyway, I can be at the petrol station topping up and he'll start being aggressive
> when I get out of the car. *I'm starting to think he feels entitled to do that... I never corrected him
> when he was younger ... I ignored any bad behaviour, because I was trying Positive Reinforcement*.
> I'm not sure if he'd have been any better [with] any other method... & I don't think switching methods will help
> at this point, so I'm sticking to the least stressful one for me (PR).


the text in COLOR is a common misunderstanding; U don't let the dog or puppy keep doing unwanted
behavior; U don't *punish* it with an applied aversive [leash jerk, scold, prong / choke / shock, spray from
a water-bottle or citronella collar, etc] - but U can 'punish' by removing a potential reward - negative punishment
takes AWAY a chance to get something the dog would gladly work to earn.

Ignoring behavior & letting it continue doesn't reduce it; *manage*: make unwanted behavior difficult-to-
impossible; make WANTED behavior easy, preferably inevitable; *re-direct*: i-e, trade a sock for a chew-toy;
or *ask for any incompatible behavior*: for a pup jumping on Ur shins, 'Sit'; pet Pup when the butt hits the floor.

If U try to ignore a barking dog who loves the sound of their own voice, U'll die of old age before that dog
learns to stop barking - it's a self-reinforcing behavior; no outside rewards are needed to maintain it.
Teaching SPEAK!, then teaching 'hush', & rewarding BOTH, can put it under stimulus control.


mylesaminute said:


> ...if I'd let him know he wasn't allowed to behave aggressively the first time he did it, [I think] he'd have adopted
> the [preferred behavior], rather than "choose" which way to react, himself -- the way I wanted him to [behave],
> [not] the one that gave him the better thrill. I feel bad about that, & don't know if I regret choosing... a different
> method... maybe he'd be a happier dog & be able to have fun, if I'd stuck to what I knew [traditional training],
> or maybe he'd be just as bad.


I doubt very much that telling him, "That's not acceptable", would've helped. Traditional training only tells
a dog what we DON'T want; it's very, very poor at explaining what we DO want; mostly it punishes all
behavior, until the dog offers something utterly unobjectionable & safe - like "lie down" or "sit still". If Ur idea
of a perfect pet is a dog who resembles a pet-rock, that's fine.  It's not mine. 

If U want a dog who does NOTHING without being told to do it, except breathe, traditional training is great;
if U want a dog who isn't afraid to try something new, or make a mistake without fearing that the wrath of God
will descend on her / him, choose another method. 

We can't go back & do it over; he's who he is, now, & can only go on from here. That doesn't mean he's
doomed, trapped, or cannot change; only his PAST cannot be changed; his future is malleable.
.
.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

For what it's worth I don't think your training methods created his issues.

It's not normal to do perfectly normal things with your dog and end up with a dog that behaves like that - look at the amount of people who do no training at all (not on here obviously, lol) walk their dogs only in nice weather and have dogs that are fine, even dogs that have been mistreated and abused can be absolutely fine...my thinking on it is that there is something just wrong in my dog.

I know with mine that it is pain related, but, other dogs live with his health conditions and don't behave like that and I'm not saying I'm a perfect owner, but I'm not a bad one. The thing that's left is him.

The first time I saw his specialist I was very much going, what have I done wrong? She pointed out that he had a good grasp of basic commands, so I couldn't have been doing anything that wrong and that the level of aggression he was displaying wasn't something I could have created without either training him for it or greatly mistreating him and in neither case would I be looking for help with him for it.

She said I had to think instead about what would have happened to him if he had an owner who hadn't spent time training him, going to classes and a behaviourist with him...and realistically he'd either have hurt someone (or a dog) or he'd have been PTS, or rehomed, hurt someone and been PTS.

So I try to concentrate on working with what he is, sometimes we make progress, sometimes we have a really horrible few weeks, living with him is hard and sometimes completely thankless and I do sometimes look at him and think, why am I doing this?

I don't even really have any answers, lol...really it's just that I'm not willing to give up on him yet.

I think I'm luckier than you in that, the only time he jumps on me or displays anything like aggression to me is when he wants to get to a dog, but it's still hard going making sure that he has no access to strangers, policing his movements if we have visitors, walking him when I can't ever guarantee that we won't meet a dog he doesn't like, taking him to the vet knowing that he's likely to suddenly decide they're not allowed to touch him...getting into the vet's to start with when there are people in the waiting room, I once stood outside for an hour to get him weighed waiting for just a minute when it was empty enough to get him to the scales, lol.

So mostly I'm just posting on your thread to go - yep, it's not just you, sucks doesn't it?


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2015)

Youre getting a lot of good advice, so Im not going to overwhelm you with more of the same other than to agree that I think this dog has far too many opportunities to practice getting himself worked up in to a state.

The best way this was explained to me once was with the opposite of freaking out - meditation. The presenter said that when one begins the practice of meditation, initially its really hard to get to that point of calm and stillness in your mind. At first youre going to need a lot of time and an environment thats fully conducive to getting to a place of zen if you will. But someone well practiced in meditation who has a lot of experience getting to a place of stillness, could sit in the middle of a busy airport and easily meditate and get in to a state of calm.

The opposite is also true. The more practice you have with getting yourself stressed out and overreacting, the easier it becomes to get in to that state of over arousal and freaking out over the slightest thing. Eventually it may be that the dog barely even needs a trigger, its just habit to for example, get in the car and spaz out.

So for the classes, here is an example (may or may not apply to your situation, but hear me out). My trainer offers a Focus and Control class. We often get a few reactive dogs in class also. With the dogs who are mildly reactive, their space in the training building is blocked off on three sides by a visual screen, they can see in front of them, but not on the other three sides. That helps a dog with run-of-the-mill reactivity.
One year, we had a dog in class who literally could not be in the same building with other dogs. He would freak out, lunge and flip around on the end of his leash, settle for half a second only to start back up again at the slightest movement or noise from the other dogs.
For this dog, his training initially consisted of getting out of the car (where he could be calm) and taking a few steps and sniffs in the parking lot. If he stayed calm, he could then go closer to the building. If he started getting excited, back in to the car until he settled again. 
In that particular 6 weeks, the dog got to the point where he could walk in to the building for literally one or two seconds, and then he would be taken right back out again and massively rewarded.

Its kind of the same concept as relax on a mat, only the mat moves. (This is another technique that is very effective).

This owner worked with that dog in a very methodical and patient way - just like that, and eventually got him to the point that he could show with other dogs in the breed ring. Amazing. But major slow, steady, patient progress with as few opportunities to practice going over threshold as humanly possible.



mylesaminute said:


> I understand about the threshold, I worked with BAT for a while. He doesn't have a set threshold, I've tried shortening it in the past several times and been unsuccessful, sometimes the person or dog can be 30 feet away before he tries attacking and sometimes he'll pay no mind to them until they're right next to us and then he'll try biting. Sometimes he'll see a dog all the way across the field and go insane, I don't know what makes him decide how close they can get before he attacks. If he knows we're moving away from the people or dogs (like when we're at a road, I always cross to the other side when I see people approaching) then as soon as I start to move away he'll start trying to attack, I have to be careful then because he'll try jumping up me and will get aggressive towards me. If we keep walking toward the person or dog then he'll just be aggressive toward them and maybe catch me by mistake (while trying to get the other dog/person).


Okay, youre missing a big piece about threshold. 
Threshold is not only distance. Its actually 3 Ds - Distance, Duration, and Distraction.

Distance is the obvious one - how far or close the dog is.

Duration is about how long the dog has been there. For example, Myles might be fine with the dog 30 feet away for five minutes, but at five minutes one second, hes done and that dog needs to go away now. 
Another example of this is what you see sometimes with a dog looking out the window at the neighbors cat. Dog is interestedly watching the cat but not reacting, not reacting, not reacting, and then suddenly, out of the blue, the dog explodes in to barking and reacting to the cat. Thats duration threshold.

Distraction has to do with what the dog is doing. A dog sitting there doing nothing is easy to ignore. A dog walking is now more interesting. A dog running, playing, barking, doing anything more exciting is going to be far harder to ignore. 
For many prey driven dogs, dogs who pull on a leash so much that it makes them walk funny is a trigger, add in some choking and squeaking noises and you have a major trigger. Thats distraction.

So how all this works together is that you deal with one D at a time. If the distraction level is up you increase distance and reduce duration. If the duration is long, you increase distance and decrease distraction. If the distance is short, you have to also have a shorter duration and less distraction. IOW, keep all three pieces in mind when dealing with threshold.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't know whether it's been posted before or whether you've seen it before but if not it's worth a read imo.
Reactive Champion: The Stress Bathtub

The whole isolation thing seems to be a tricky one for people to get their heads around because of course if your dog never sees his triggers you can't work on the issue. But the idea isn't to isolate them completely at all times. It's to isolate them for a period to give their stress levels time to come down so that they're in a better position to learn coping behaviours when they are exposed again (at a controlled level that they can cope with to at least some extent)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> ..._ agree... this dog has far too many opportunities to practice getting himself... into a state.
> 
> The best way this was explained to me once was with the opposite of freaking out - meditation.
> The presenter said that when one begins to practice meditation, initially it's really hard to get to that point
> ...


_
Excellent illustration -

also BTW, 8-ft long folding tables are very handy, commonly-available visual barriers. Lay them sidelong, to frame
a space for the dog - either place one to each side with an open front facing the class, or 3 tables in a lozenge,
with a narrow "gate" where one table is set at a slant, to allow dog & handler to enter.

---- WALL -------
....|.......|
....|.......|

..... class at a distance ...

___________________

Or example 2, with 3 tables:

--- WALL ------
....|......../
....|____/

.... class at a distance ...

U can also use a Calming-Cap as a tool for reducing visual reactivity - with or without a physical barrier.



ouesi said:



...youre missing a big piece about threshold. 
Threshold is not only distance. It's actually 3 Ds - Distance, Duration, and Distraction.

Distance is the obvious one - how far or close is the dog [to the trigger].

Duration is about how long the dog is there.
For example, Myles might be fine with a dog 30 feet away for 5-minutes, but at 5-minutes one second,
hes done -- and that dog needs to go away, now.

Another example is what you see sometimes with a dog looking out the window at the neighbors cat.
Dog is interestedly watching the cat but not reacting, not reacting, not reacting, and then suddenly,
out of the blue, the dog explodes into barking and reacting to the cat. Thats duration threshold.

Distraction has to do with what the [trigger] is doing.
A dog sitting, doing nothing, is easy to ignore. A dog walking is now more interesting. A dog running,
playing, barking, doing anything more exciting [than 'sit'] will be far-harder to ignore.

For many prey-driven dogs, dogs who pull on leash so much, it makes them walk funny, are triggers;
add some choking and squeaking noises, and you have a major trigger. Thats distraction.

Click to expand...

CLICK! --- Rep for U, brilliant distillation. :thumbup:

This will become calligraphy, to be framed & hung on the wall:


ouesi said:



...deal with one "D" at a time.
If distraction goes up, increase Distance and reduce Duration.
If duration is longer, increase Distance and decrease Distraction.
If the distance is short, ...shorten Duration and lower Distraction.

...keep all three pieces in mind, when dealing with threshold. 

Click to expand...

Simply gorgeous. :thumbsup: Spot-on.
.
._


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2015)

Geez... stroke my ego some more there L4L :lol:

Wish I could take credit, but its mostly Hannah Brannigan stuff that she in turn took from probably Denise Fenzi and others. 

I could complicate things by adding the 4th D - Difficulty - how hard of a task are you asking the dog to do.

Not to mention theres another piece of the distance D which is proximity or distance to the handler. 

But for the purposes of this discussion the 3 Ds will work


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Geez... stroke my ego some more, there, L4L. :lol:
> 
> Wish I could take credit, but its mostly Hannah Brannigan - stuff that she, in turn, took - probly from Denise Fenzi
> & others.


Hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with sharing stuff from Other Ppl - how did all of us learn,
at the very beginning? -- From other ppl! :laugh:

REMEMBERING it with accuracy, & RELATING it in ways that are both accurate & memorable - that gets the points. 

I tell ppl all the time i stand on giants' shoulders; my knowledge, tools, & tips all began with Someone Else.
I try to credit when i know an actual source, but in some cases, i don't know whose bright leap it was. :Shrug:
And presenting it so that it's understandable matters, too.


ouesi said:


> I could complicate things by adding the 4th "D", Difficulty - _how hard a task are you asking of the dog?..._
> Not to mention theres another piece of the Distance "D": _the dog's proximity or distance to the handler._
> 
> But for the purposes of this discussion, _the 3 Ds_ will work.


re handler / dog distance: I have my own Rule. :yesnod:

_Terry's rule for distance & behavior:
'The odds that a dog won't comply or will misbehave can be written as
"Delta = [X to the power of Y] x Z", where Delta = change over time, X = % failure on a 1st cue
expressed as a single digit, Y is the distance in feet between dog & handler, & Z = minutes at that distance.

Thus, if my dog fails 2 times of 5 [40% - expressed as '4' of 10], & is 4-ft from me, for 5-minutes,
those odds change over 5-minutes as "Delta = [4 x 4 x 4 x 4] x 5 = 1280 = 128%".
IOW - at 4-ft distance & 5-minutes duration, my dog has a better than inevitable chance of failing
to comply with a known cue, or an unpredicted misbehavior.
The same dog, at only 2-ft distant for 2-minutes, has only a 3.2% chance of failure to comply / misbehavior.'_ :thumbup1:
.
.


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## Faerie Queene (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi 

I've read up to page 6 of this thread, but I have to go out,
so I'm going to post this now.

What I'm going to write, will most likely be met with fury and disbelief.
But it's a true story and something to think upon, once the anger has subsided.

Over 40 years ago, I was a kennel maid, at a boarding and rescue kennels and cattery.
Kind people donated boxes of Bonios and Shapes, as treats for the dogs.
One day, while giving some Shapes to one of the long term, un-homeable rescues, he managed to knock a biscuit under his bed.
He was scrabbling around to hook it out, but couldn't reach it.
So, I got down and put my arm under the bed, to get it.
At which point, he bit me.
And continued to bite me, running his mouth, the full length of my bare fore arm.
He's roaring and I'm screaming.
I managed to pull away and ran outside, into the run.
I looked down at my arm and it was - WET!
I was in pain, but there wasn't any blood. Or wounds.
Just slobber!

Long story short.
He was a vicious dog and a habitual biter.
He had been sentenced to death, by a Court.
His owner had an idea to save him and the Judge agreed.
He had all his teeth removed.
I don't know how or why he came to be in rescue, but his life had been spared.

While that solution, may be thought of as cruel,
please think of a dog losing it's teeth, due to ill health or disease.
Nobody would say that was cruel.

And, believe me, that rescue dog was one happy bunny and had a good quality of life


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Removing a dogs teeth may prevent them from biting properly but it does absolutely nothing to address the real issue, the reason behind why the dog resorts to using its teeth in the first place. And to be perfectly honest, it's not what I'd consider a viable management option either, if a dog is such a habitual biter and cannot be rehabilitated I fail to see how that is a happy dog.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Wow.....


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Would it not have been more sensible to call him out to the run for another biscuit, shut the trap door, leave him to munch the extra one, whilst you retrieved the one stuck under the bed, then called him back in for it?

This is what good management is all about. Avoiding instances where the dog can get so stressed out that they resort to aggression and changing the way that you manage these situations to such an extent that the dog has positive experiences where previously they were negative.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Removing a dogs teeth may prevent them from biting properly but it does absolutely nothing to address the real issue, the reason behind why the dog resorts to using its teeth in the first place. And to be perfectly honest, it's not what I'd consider a viable management option either, if a dog is such a habitual biter and cannot be rehabilitated I fail to see how that is a happy dog.


This.
And yes, Faerie Queene, I am meeting you with disbelief. I cant begin to imagine a vet extracting ALL of a dogs teeth. Incisors, canines, and maybe even premolars, but ALL the teeth? Do you have any idea what that would entail physiologically for the dog?

But back to the issue of tooth removal as a treatment for aggression. It does happens sometimes, usually by court order as an option instead of euthanasia. Personally, Im not a fan. 
It doesnt solve the issue that the dog is still upset, the dog sill feels the need to bite, the emotional part is still there. It strikes me as one of those things were anything goes as long as we get to say the dog was saved. Just goes back to what I believe - there are far worse fates out there for a troubled dog than a humane death....



lemmsy said:


> Would it not have been more sensible to call him out to the run for another biscuit, shut the trap door, leave him to munch the extra one, whilst you retrieved the one stuck under the bed, then called him back in for it?
> 
> This is what good management is all about. Avoiding instances where the dog can get so stressed out that they resort to aggression and changing the way that you manage these situations to such an extent that the dog has positive experiences where previously they were negative.


And this. One of my issues with tooth extraction for aggression is the false sense of security it can give. There was no reason to put the dog in this position where he would resort to a bite.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I'm going  at the idea that tooth extraction is a good management technique...

My dog has actually only ever made contact with me (while trying to get to a dog) because he's been muzzled as soon as it became apparent that there was an issue.

So he's muzzled in any situation I can't avoid that he may try to bite and of course I try to avoid those situations to start with.

Given that he's a large dog (as the OP's is) being gummed would still be pretty painful (he can break lamb ribs when eating, that isn't just because he has teeth) and there's no warning, which is what a muzzle does best, it lets other people know that the dog wearing the muzzle has an issue.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

And having seen a muzzled dog break ribs despite being unable to bite I don't think tooth removal would prevent injury to be honest.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Faerie Queene said:


> ...
> I've read up to page 6 of this thread...


Re-set Ur preferences to max per page - it was 40 when i set mine, praps it's more now. I'm only partway down
page 5.


Faerie Queene said:


> What I'm going to write, will most likely be met with fury & disbelief. But it's a true story...
> 
> Over 40 years ago, I was a kennel maid, at a boarding & rescue kennels and cattery.
> ... One day, while giving some Shapes to one of the long term, un-homeable rescues, he [knocked] a biscuit
> ...


*
U're absolutely right. :yesnod: I don't believe U for a minute. I think it's total fabrication. 

A - U'd have KNOWN if he was toothless.
There'd have been no moment of utter panic when U imagined that U were going to need stitches.
Toothless dogs cannot keep their TONGUES in their mouths; they protrude constantly,
at odd angles, & moreover appear to be about a yard long, even in a small dog - they look bizarre.
U could not possibly overlook that - it would be ludicrous to expect us to believe U did. So unless
U are blind - which i doubt very much - U had to KNOW if he was actually toothless.

B - teeth aren't "just" teeth.
They're part & parcel of the dog's skeletal system, & if U take out adult teeth, U lose jaw - as teeth are
part of, & critical to, the healthy bone of a normal jaw.

Don't believe me? -- no problem; Google a few images of "World's Ugliest Dog", consistently won by many
Chinese Cresteds, who as a breed are notorious for losing teeth at an early age, & as a hairless breed, are
also notorious for missing adult teeth, both of which result in jaw loss & weird facial expressions, enormous
lolling tongues obviously outsize for the small animal, & problems eating & digesting food.

C - why would U give hard chewies to a toothless dog?...
As i refuse to believe U could see any toothless dog & not KNOW s/he was only able
to gum their food; it's glaringly obvious.


Sarah1983 said:



Removing a dog's teeth may prevent them from biting properly, but does absolutely nothing to address
the real issue, the reason... why the dog resorts to using its teeth in the first place. And to be perfectly honest,
it's not what I'd consider a viable management option, either; if a dog is such a habitual biter & cannot be
rehabilitated, I fail to see how that is a happy dog.

Click to expand...

Agreed. :thumbsup:


ouesi said:



...
And yes, Faerie Queene, I am meeting you with disbelief.
I cant begin to imagine a vet extracting ALL of a dogs teeth. Incisors, canines, maybe even premolars,
but ALL the teeth? Do you have any idea what that would entail physiologically for the dog?

Click to expand...

Poor digestion & absorption, JAW LOSS, muscle atrophy & loss, & if the dog lives long-enuf, eventually
the hard-palate & sinuses will begin to collapse, as they lack support; the dog's foreface will fold inward.

Such a dog would need a special diet; one of Slimeball Vick's surviving dogs from his 'Bad Newz' kennels was
a rednosed bitch he'd used as a breeding dam, all of whose teeth were removed BY A VET - no amateur.
Sadly, they have not found the vet in Q, who should IMO have their license to practice revoked.


ouesi said:



...One of my issues with tooth extraction for aggression is the false sense of security it can give.
There was no reason to put the dog in this position, where he would resort to a bite. 

Click to expand...

Definitely. :thumbsup: Spot-on.


lemmsy said:



Would it not have been more sensible to call him to the run for another biscuit, shut the trap door,
& leave him to munch the extra, whilst you retrieved the one stuck under the bed, then called him
back in [to give him the retrieved biscuit]?

This is what good management is all about... changing the way that you manage these situations
to such an extent that the dog has positive experiences, where previously they were negative.

Click to expand...

:thumbup: Precisely. rep for U!
.
.*


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

That story is completely unbelievable. For all the reasons mentioned. Also, if a dog didn't have any teeth whatsoever, how does he eat something as big as a bonio? Does he suck it?


And as for a solution: my dog appears to have great bite inhibition, but his encounters with other dogs are nonetheless frightening due to the sheer volume of noise he manages to make as he's tussling and scrabbling with the other dog.

And another point (I've just remembered) I had a dog PTS once as it jumped at a child and damaged her face requiring stitches (albeit the butterfly kind). but he didn't do this wih his teeth- his claws were the offending weapon.
Just in case anyone thinks this was a freakish accident- he actually bit both the Gill and her sister on the legs during the "frenzy" though they both had jeans on and his teeth didn't break the skin- but they had those mouth shaped bruises round their legs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> ... if a dog had no teeth whatsoever, how does s/he eat something as big as a Bonio?
> ... suck on it?
> 
> ...


 My thought exactly.
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Hi everyone, just dropping a bit of an upsetting update, decided to have Myles PTS on Friday. I've been sick with a chest infection since the start of the month and have been struggling with him quite a bit.

A few times he'd cornered me in the kitchen or at the top of the stairs and refused to move or tried to bite at me. After the first few days it turned into a daily problem and Myles ended up being shut in a different room most of the time. On Thursday night I got up to get some water and got pinned against the wall by a dog that just wouldn't move. Waited it out for about 5 minutes then he walked off and laid down. I had to have my dad take him to the vet, I can't drive at the minute. 

I haven't asked, I'm hoping he didn't kick up too much of a fuss this time. The house is really quiet, when I'm better from this chest infection I'm going to be at a loss for things to do in the morning/evening. On the plus side, some friends I've known for years are seeing my house for the first time while they come and make sure I haven't coughed up my lungs, LOL. 

Thanks for all the advice and support over the last few weeks, it's a shame I didn't come here sooner.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

I'm so sorry 
You put forth tremendous effort. The lessons you learned with Myles are not in vain, you will apply them again and his time with you will improve the life of another dog.
Be gentle with yourself...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm so sorry 

You tried your best, and that is all anyone can ask. You went above and beyond for that dog right up to the end.

Look after yourself xx


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I've not commented on this thread before as I had no knowledge or wisdom to share - but I have read how much you worked to help Myles, he knew love despite being unable to always accept it.
You gave this dog the best chance in life and then gave him peace 
I hope you are feeling better soon and can begin to re-connect with family and friends.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm sorry, must be so hard after all your effort. But you can most definitely say you gave it your best shot, and I think very few people would have persevered anywhere near as long. Myles was lucky to have you


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

not because it was _'the wrong thing to do'_, it was right for YOU & right for him - but because I know U'll miss him;
altho he was difficult & a massive complication in Ur life, he was also dear to U, & he'll leave a big hole.

Take the time to miss him - he deserves acknowledgement for the good things he brought, too. And then enjoy having
some uncomplicated time to get better, entertain, visit, & find a new balance without him.

The tough ones are also those who teach us the most - & the time U spent with him wasn't wasted.

Rest easy, Myles - no more worries. Perhaps in a few months, if the Universe is kind, there will be another life;
U'll be a happy, handsome dog who enjoys human company, & is dearly loved for that winning charm.
But U were much-loved in this life, too - warts & all. And if that's the only life U get, it was a very good life.
No regrets.
.
.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Oh how sad...for you I mean. I hope you feel better soon, physically and with this.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm so, so sorry :crying: Sometimes no matter what we do, no matter how hard we try or how much we love we just cannot fix them. 

Run free Myles.


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

I'm really sorry to hear this too. Myles was so so lucky to have you though.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

mylesaminute said:


> Hi everyone, just dropping a bit of an upsetting update, decided to have Myles PTS on Friday. I've been sick with a chest infection since the start of the month and have been struggling with him quite a bit.
> 
> A few times he'd cornered me in the kitchen or at the top of the stairs and refused to move or tried to bite at me. After the first few days it turned into a daily problem and Myles ended up being shut in a different room most of the time. On Thursday night I got up to get some water and got pinned against the wall by a dog that just wouldn't move. Waited it out for about 5 minutes then he walked off and laid down. I had to have my dad take him to the vet, I can't drive at the minute.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry to hear this - but I think you have done the right thing. Without you, Myles life would have been much shorter, and probably much less rich and loving.

You didn't take this decision lightly. It may be that one day you will be rady for another companion - when this happens, I'm sure that you will find one without the problems that Myles had. I can't help but think that either something dreadful happened to him before he came to you, or that he had some sort of brain abnormality.

Look after yourself and get well, and give yourself time to grieve - and DON'T feel guilty. You did your best - that's all any of us can do.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Similar to Fleur, I have been reading but I haven't had anything useful to say but I found it a deeply moving thread and you did so much for Myles. I am so sorry, it clearly was a decision that required much thought and consideration.

Take good care of yourself and do allow yourself to grieve.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sorry to hear your news and I'd only echo what everyone else has already said. You went above and beyond for your boy to give him the best life possible.

Run free handsome x


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Sorry to hear this, but I'm sure he's at peace now x


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

I too, like Fleur and MS never commented on your thread for similar reasons. However, I did follow this thread and I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss. You done more for Myles than most would have. He sounded like a very troubled boy. He was very lucky to have had an owner like you. Take care of yourself.

Sleep easy Myles. I hope you are at peace now.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone, I'm feeling a lot better today, just this lingering cough.

I spoke to my dad today and he says Myles didn't put up much of a fight, he laid down when the vet put him to sleep which is nice. I'd have liked to have been there but he'd have probably acted up if I was there.

I'm picking his ashes up from the vets on Friday, my antibiotics are finished tomorrow so I'll be able to drive. It'll be nice to have Myles and people in the house at the same time for once, LOL. 

Here are a couple of photos of Myles when he was young, he looked funny when he was about 4 months old (the way he sat was unreal). Just figured I'd share them. 



















How soon is "too soon" to get another dog? I know it's different for everyone, just wondering what the general consensus is. I'd like another dog this year, I grew up around so many at one time and I've had Myles for the last five years. Before him I really missed having a dog and I'd only been living alone full time for a few months. I don't really miss Myles himself yet, but I'm definitely missing the dog in the house. I'd always thought I'd get a puppy when Myles was gone but have already decided that, if anything it'll be an older dog.

Also on an unrelated topic does anyone know what happened with "dispup" and her dog?...I know there was a thread started by a staff member but I don't remember where in the forum it was.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

mylesaminute said:


> How soon is "too soon" to get another dog?


Only you can answer that one. You will know when the time is right


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lovely pics  Spen likes to sit the same way at times lol.

Really depends on the person as to when is too soon. Whenever I've lost a dog I've been ready almost immediately. Spen came home 5 weeks after I lost Rupert. I still grieved for Rupe but having Spen gave me a reason to get out of bed. He didn't replace Rupert but he filled that huge, huge hole that was left in my life. Same when Shadow died and I got Rupert. I'm lost without a dog.

Others aren't ready for months or even years. Whatever works for you and don't let anyone tell you you're wrong, we all deal with grief and death differently.

No idea on Dispups pup, I remember the thread but I don't remember any real conclusion to it. I may simply have missed it though. It was somewhere in general chat.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear about your beautiful boy! He was very lucky to have such a caring and thoughtful owner. I'm sure he is at peace now.. x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mylesaminute said:


> ... on an unrelated topic does anyone know what happened with 'Dispup' and her dog?
> I know there was a thread started by a staff member, but I don't remember where in the forum it was.


here ya go:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/390950-dispups-puppy.html

I've no idea what the outcome was / is, I didn't read the thread, but did find it via Search.
.
.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Phoolf said:


> Sorry to hear your news and I'd only echo what everyone else has already said. You went above and beyond for your boy to give him the best life possible.
> 
> Run free handsome x


Ditto this I don't see how you could have done more for him xx


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think as you are missing having a dog in the house you are a true dog lover and need one - so as soon as you want another one. I have always had more than one dog so not been dogless but a friend lost hers prematurely and immediately got another one - within a week. oh actually, I was without a dog once and after the first day I was looking for one.


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## Frankie457 (Jan 1, 2015)

Like others have said i followed your thread but had no advice to give you, all i can say is Myles was so lucky to have had you and you no doubt gave him a better life x

Also, it is so nice to have seen the forum members rally around you and try and help, so often i read posts about having dogs PTS or rehomed and feel like it is just people looking for everyone to agree with them giving up. You never gave up on Myles, throughout serious behavioural problems you stuck by your gorgeous guy and did your best. So So many people would have quit on the poor guy - you NEVER gave up x

He is at peace now, i hope you find the same x


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i'm so sorry for your loss. myles was lucky to have you cos i don't think i could've coped.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone.

I picked him up from the vets today and was actually really surprised, the box is really nice and they had a little condolence card. I've never had any of my pets cremated before, I didn't know what to expect but it was quite nice. 

Also brought another dog home this evening after work. I was just going to go and look but ended up bringing her home, she's a little Border Collie/Jack Russell but looks like a scrawny JRT with a thicker tail called Sam. Her owner's broke up and neither of them wanted to take her as she was a gift from one to the other. Kind of a sad story, she seems happy enough though. She's 4 years old and a bit nervous, I've been told she's nervous around other dogs and new people. The guy I got her from was honest about her and told me to call if there were any problems, who knows how he'll react if there actually is a problem LOL. 

I figure there aren't many problems I won't at least be able to put up with, she's tiny so even if she's the exact behavioural replica of Myles she can stay. :crazy: She seems like a nice enough little dog, warmed up to me really quickly and sat nicely in the passenger side of the car on the way home. She's already made herself comfortable at home. It's nice that she seems to have settled in so quick.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Congratulations  Hope everything works out for you with Sam. But aren't you missing something vitally important? Like a picture of her...


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> I picked him up from the vets today and was actually really surprised, the box is really nice and they had a little condolence card. I've never had any of my pets cremated before, I didn't know what to expect but it was quite nice.
> 
> ...


I really hope you and Sam are very happy together, you deserve to be. Take care!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am glad you went ahead and got another dog. She cant replace Myles but if you are a dog person you need a dog in the home.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm not seeing much Border Collie in anything she does but she's a very cuddly and loving little dog. She slept well last night and didn't fuss at all. I took her out for a walk today and she's good off the lead. She is a bit iffy with other dogs, she barks and pulls towards them when she's on the lead and will run toward them when she's off the lead, but has a really good recall and seems happy enough.

I was told she bites other dogs if they get close enough, I'm not worried about it. From what I've seen she's not overly nasty, I'll see how she settles down over the next few weeks and decide how to go about it. I haven't taken many pictures of her, I'll post a couple now and start a thread just for her in a few days. This one can fall back in the forum and resurface another day, there's a lot of good advice here.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`m posting this in case anyone else is in the same situation. Hoping it will help them.

I`ve got 4 ex-biters. 
One bit the RSPCA man, the kennel maids, the vet, my son.... He was absolutely terrified. He is now the sweetest little dog - still a bit wary of people but safe. We just ignored him. He made all the moves. The dog agression was addressed over many months with lots of biscuits, training and being on a line. 
The Collie would hide under the table and defend himself and everything else- he was owned by a bully. We did Swapsies for the guarding and threw biscuits across the room to get him out of the corner he was defending. He is soft as butter now. 
The Dobie Cross was simply a badly handled Plonker. He`s trustworthy - but still a plonker. 
The GSD was `trained` to be aggressive. She was human aggressive and frankly dangerous. It took 3 years to retrain her. She is (7 years on) a lovely dog. 
So- it is possible, but it takes time and effort. Huge amounts of patience and much reading. 
These are the books that helped me most - there are elements in each of them I rejected, but also valuable techniques that worked.

Understanding and Handling Dog Aggression by Barbara Sykes 
Culture Clash:by Jean Donaldson 
The Dog Aggression Workbook by James O'Heare 

And I was lucky enough to find a good Naughty Dog Club with a very experienced trainer. 
Be careful- always ask people who have been to any trainer for a reference and always observe a session. My GSD was put back months by a trainer who decked her.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2015)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I`m posting this in case anyone else is in the same situation. Hoping it will help them.
> 
> I`ve got 4 ex-biters.
> One bit the RSPCA man, the kennel maids, the vet, my son.... He was absolutely terrified. He is now the sweetest little dog - still a bit wary of people but safe. We just ignored him. He made all the moves. The dog agression was addressed over many months with lots of biscuits, training and being on a line.
> ...


Considering the outcome on this thread, the bolded seems a little insensitive.

Yes, most dogs respond well to effective behavior modification, and sound management. This thread is already full of fabulous advice in this area.

Most dogs do respond to b-mod, but not all. 
Not all dogs can be fixed. 
Not all owners have the time, knowledge, or resources.

Its not the worst thing in the world to humanely euthanize a dog with behavioral issues. I can think of far worse fates.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I have only just caught up with this thread; I am sorry for your loss  and at the same time very happy to see Sam .


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## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

I am so sorry for your loss. We had to make a tough decision just over a year ago to have our young dog pts. Our dog had many behaviour problems and we seeked help but there was nothing more we could have done for him. The vet told me he was very sick. You must try and take comfort in that he is at peace now. No more being afraid and stressed he is running free with the other dogs and having a much happier time than he did here. My mum put it very nicely with Mac, she said he just didn't walk the same path as the rest of us. Take care and thinking of you.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

It is so lovely to see Sam and I wish you both well.


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Sam looks lovely. I hope you have many happy years together .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sam looks very cute, & i'm glad to hear she's settling in nicely. However, i do have some concerns -


mylesaminute said:


> ...she's a very cuddly and loving little dog... slept well last night, didn't fuss at all. I took her out for a walk today
> & *she's* good off the lead... *a bit iffy with other dogs, barks & pulls towards them when on-lead & runs toward
> them when... off-lead*, but has a really good recall & seems happy enough.
> 
> ...


Personally, i wouldn't let a dog i'd just acquired run off-leash outside a fence, until i'd gotten to know them,
& them to know me, a bit better - & that would hold doubly so if the dog was already reputed to have issues
with other dogs, even if s/he DIDN'T appear to be at least 75% JRT - which Sam certainly does. :huh:

I like to stack the odds in my favor, & on the side of the dog to choose behaviors i'd want to see -
letting a dog i just got, an adoptee, run loose isn't a choice i'd make with any breed, even a bone-idle goofy
Lab who was supposed to love every human & every dog s/he had ever met in their lifetime, thus far.
I'd want to watch the dog - their actions & reactions, & how others react to them - before s/he would earn
my confidence for off-leash adventures outside a fence.

That she appears to be a classic Terrierrrrist is only another doggone good reason to heed the warning
about her past transgressions with other dogs - on or off-leash. Terriers often instigate, & are also exceedingly
prone to respond to stuff that wouldn't provoke a dog of another type. They're class-agitators -
the teacher can generally assume that if there's an outburst while their back is turned, the Terrier has something
to do with it.

Also, re her photo - 
there's a loop of fine chain that runs alongside her collar. Is that a stowable leader for a leash, a convertible
collar that can be buckle or infinite-clip AKA choke, or something else?

Simply because the jingle & rattle it produces when she walks or runs will attract attn from other dogs & is
going to PRIME them to react to her, i'd ditch it for something silent.
That jingle can be heard by another dog for the length of a USA football field [100 yards] easily, even thru
the din of urban or suburban background noise; it can also add to HER agitation by changing sound when
she changes gaits [walk to a run] or alters her movements [jumps up & down, etc], escalating her arousal.

Plus, the collar looks so big, that if she backed-up, it appears she could easily slip it off over her head,
& be off & running naked.

A sighthound-style martingale collar of fabric is highly adjustable, & can easily be made to sit up near
her head, high on her neck [this one is low, near her shoulders] where it's comfortable, but CANNOT be
made to slip off over her head - if she puts tension on the leash, it tightens.
Martingales are not *infinite-slip* - they don't close off the airway; unless she's literally suspended
with her feet off the ground, they are very very safe... and *quiet -* they don't rattle or jingle.

For the same reason [to silence her approach to other dogs, & to quiet the tag-jingle] i'd bag any tags.
*Quiet Spot* is a very durable, inexpensive option of neoprene, but there are many others.
Tag-jingle alerts other dogs that a dog is approaching, & can also excite the dog wearing the tags
when s/he is doing something arousing - which is typically not whilst walking at a consistent pace. 

If someone told me that the dog i'm adopting "has issues" with other dogs, i'd take that at face value
& take precautions until it was proven otherwise. She's still in her honeymoon period.
.
.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Sam looks very cute, & i'm glad to hear she's settling in nicely. However, i do have some concerns -
> 
> Personally, i wouldn't let a dog i'd just acquired run off-leash outside a fence, until i'd gotten to know them,
> & them to know me, a bit better - & that would hold doubly so if the dog was already reputed to have issues
> ...


No, not at all... :aureola:


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

mylesaminute said:


> I'm not seeing much Border Collie in anything she does but she's a very cuddly and loving little dog. She slept well last night and didn't fuss at all. I took her out for a walk today and she's good off the lead. She is a bit iffy with other dogs, she barks and pulls towards them when she's on the lead and will run toward them when she's off the lead, but has a really good recall and seems happy enough.
> 
> I was told she bites other dogs if they get close enough, I'm not worried about it. From what I've seen she's not overly nasty, I'll see how she settles down over the next few weeks and decide how to go about it. I haven't taken many pictures of her, I'll post a couple now and start a thread just for her in a few days. This one can fall back in the forum and resurface another day, there's a lot of good advice here.


WOW! She looks like my Charlie!  What a beautiful dog, if I do say so myself...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *Wow!*
> She looks like my Charlie!  What a beautiful dog, if I do say so myself... :blush2:


...and Charlie, as we all know, is an angelic lil' darlin' - butter wouldn't melt in his dear mouth. :aureola:
He's tolerant, long-suffering, bomb-proof, resilient, never takes umbrage at intrusive young thugs,
adores children of all ages, will happily spend an hour sitting on Granny's lap being stroked, loves hugs,
& enjoys having his claws manicured - especially the nail-polish, after they're trimmed & filed smooth. :thumbup:

...Right? :001_cool:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:scared: Whaddaya mean, _'Not so much' -_ exactly *what* do U mean? :scared:
He's a doll - isn't he?...
.
.
.
.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> ...and Charlie, as we all know, is an angelic lil' darlin' - butter wouldn't melt in his dear mouth. :aureola:
> He's tolerant, long-suffering, bomb-proof, resilient, never takes umbrage at intrusive young thugs,
> adores children of all ages, will happily spend an hour sitting on Granny's lap being stroked, loves hugs,
> & enjoys having his claws manicured - especially the nail-polish, after they're trimmed & filed smooth. :thumbup:
> ...


Haha! Dont put butter near that mouth, it wont last long! (I think back to the time when he was on the table licking margarine from the tub!) :lol:

Whilst Charlie does love grannies and kids alike, he doesnt like young thugs (forgetting not too long ago he was one too!)

I love a Terrier...just not when they take off after a scent and dont re-appear when called (I'm still plucking the thorns out from Charlies fur!)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

of assorted Terror-posts from around PF-uk:

re 'Do your dogs like to be held?'


Pupcakes said:


> Dottie tolerates it, but would rather you didn't ---
> Charlie's the same, but if I'm locking up downstairs before bed and he's still with me,
> he'll go to the bottom step & lift up his front paws, & I'll carry him upstairs with me!


Re 'Do your dogs like to be held?'


Westie Mum said:


> my two Westies love cuddles; they're quite happy to be cradled like a baby - My boy, especially.
> 
> My JRT does not like any affection! You may cover her with a blanket, but that's all we're good for, :lol:


re desex:


Pupcakes said:


> Dottie I [spayed] at 10-MO after one season; *Charlie was done at just under a year, as he was getting aggressive
> with other male dogs, & humping a lot. *
> 
> A year or two down the line, I felt awful for [neutering] him, but he's a confident dog with no health issues
> I know of, at present. *He still humps Dottie & my mum's puppy when he's excited, but it's easily managed.*


*'Do your dogs like getting baths**?*


Pupcakes said:


> Rivers... yes
> The sea... yes
> Puddles... yes
> Ponds... yes
> ...


Co-operation isn't a big trait in terrierrrists of all stripes. :laugh:
.
.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

She was in a fenced area when the photos themselves were taken, we moved to the unfenced fields afterwards as some kids were wanting to use the play equipment in the field we were in. Dogs aren't really supposed to be there, a lot of people take their dogs into the play area to be off lead, I find it a bit rude when they don't leave when kids enter.

The collar is a buckle martingale, she was an impromptu addition and it was the first martingale that I found that would fit her.  I am going to change it, I'll probably buy a bogstandard harness for her. All of my childhood dogs used to wear harnesses, the store just had nothing that would fit her when I went in. 

I took her out again today and met up with a friend of mine who has some nice dogs. She barked, barked, barked...We walked alongside each other for a while (Sam had stopped barking as soon as she realised we were walking together) and then she played nicely with the other two dogs for the rest of the walk. She's got such a good recall, I'm surprised. I was recalling her while she was playing and immediately she'd come back. I'm not sure what I expected when I got her, apparently the owners didn't walk her off lead much because of their work schedules (getting home too late and up too early). 

I know a lot of the dog walkers in the area and saw a few of them when I was walking her this morning and Sam did the same to them that she'd done to my friends dogs (barking, shutting up and then playing nice). She's got pretty good dog manners once she's actually met the dog, it's just the first bit that's a bit dodgy and I'm thinking that might be the bit that caused problems for her last owners but I don't know yet, she's only been here a day. 

I'm sure once she's settled in a bit more she'll start giving me trouble, I'm trying to get her to meet as many dogs as I can while she's not causing a problem. 

She's definitely got Jack Russell in her, and I know she's half Border Collie as the owners know both of her parents, but it's hard to believe. She just looks like a taller Jack Russell imo.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> of assorted Terror-posts from around PF-uk:
> 
> re 'Do your dogs like to be held?'
> 
> ...


*"Hey L4L...."*


*"DO I LOOK CRAZY TO YOU?!"*


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Molly will sometimes bark at other dogs off lead - bigger ones usually. We've given her a distraction before she starts like 'touch' but if she starts then we really do have to do a 'uh oh' to get her to stop. There's no growling at all and she has the reputation of 'noisy and friendly'.

It's just catching her before she starts and we're working with Developing Dogs to help us find a way to manage it but she's not terribly worried about it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *"Hey, L4L...."
> "DO I LOOK CRAZY TO YOU?!"*


_Naah! - not at all, puppers.
Pigheaded, yes. - Determined? ... oh, yeah. :laugh: Relentless? - absolutely.
Willful? - U betcha. Basically, U know what U want, & U're gonna get it. 
That face says, *"Give it to me - now, ya slow lummox!..."*_

BTW, how old is she, now? --- I ask because her corneas are beginning to cloud slightly.
[That's not necessarily anything alarming, it's a normal aging process - other things that the vet would
look at, would be worrying. Clouding is like a greying muzzle.]
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I'm posting this *in case anyone else is in the same situation*. Hoping it will help them.
> 
> I`ve got *4 ex-biters*.
> 
> ...


I wanted to underline this post - there's nothing wrong with adding info for other owners, trying to cope with
aggression of one type or another, & feeling at their wit's ends. Many dogs with bite-histories CAN be helped,
CAN become trusting & trustworthy, or even if they cannot, CAN be managed safely.

Yes - there are dogs who can't be helped. Thankfully, they're few; that doesn't make it any less painful,
when that dog is *yours*. But that doesn't mean everyone with a dog who's bitten someone, should
just give up & reconcile themselves to an early death.
There are books, articles, websites, trainers, medications, vet-behaviorists, calmatives, Mgmt tools, & more.
It's possible - more, pet-owners can do it. It doesn't require a miracle or a magick wand.

Get good advice. Learn practical skills. MANAGE - first & foremost, & forever - even with a "good" dog.
.
.


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