# Choke Chains



## Kangarabbit (Jul 28, 2013)

I really hate the name of these things, but I was wondering what peoples views are on 'choke chains'?


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## RockoAndDexter (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't see any need for them, even as a "last resort". There are other ways to train dogs to walk sensibly without inflicting pain and causing harm.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They can and do work as corrections once the dog knows the behaviour but there's no need for them.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Kangarabbit said:


> I really hate the name of these things, but I was wondering what peoples views are on 'choke chains'?


Not only are they unnecessary they have been proving to cause lots of various health problems in dogs so that alone is a good reason not to use them. There is lots of info on what damage they can cause on the internet. One taken at random below.

Choke chains have been scientifically proven to cause Injured ocular blood vessels, Tracheal and oesophageal damage, Severely sprained necks, Cases of fainting, Asphyxiation, Transient foreleg paralysis, Laryngeal nerve paralysis and Hind leg ataxia

Avoid Choke Chains at all Costs!


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

I'm not a fan of them. 

My childhood family dog was walked on one - but that was when she didn't pull and only because she didn't really need a lead, it was only used to get from A to B for a very short distance, and the collar was quick to slip on and off - although thinking about it I don't know why they didn't just use a slip lead instead. At the age of 12 I was walking her with one - but the collar on the dead link, and I used to let her off lead once in the field. 

the above sort of use I can sort of understand, but again you could just use a slip lead instead.

I wouldn't use one to teach a dog to stop pulling, having something tighten around their neck cannot be a good thing. If a dog is pulling towards something that it really wants to get then they sometimes seem to become blind to pain, the dog would then continue to pull and the collar gets tighter and tighter all of that time, probably winding the dog up even more. When you think about the damage that is causing to the neck it's quite horrible.

So as a training aid - no thank you, as a convenience in so far as ease of removal ok.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

A 'choke chain' is a 'check chain' threaded the wrong way. A 'check chain' tightens when pulled, then loosens when pressure is removed. A 'choke chain' tightens when pulled, but doesn't loosen when the lead is relaxed causing a continual squeeze on the dog's throat. If you have a 'check chain' thread it both ways and try on your wrist, then think what that must feel like on a dog's neck. Same with prong collars, if you can't deal with it on your wrist don't put it on your dog.

I don't like check chains, but it's not a whole lot worse than yanking a dog back as it pulls forward on a normal collar. It can do a lot of damage over time.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2014)

Can open... worms everywhere.... 

Im not one to dismiss any tool, but choke chains are pretty dangerous implements IMO. Id rather see a dog in a prong than a choke chain.

*ducks and hides*


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## Kangarabbit (Jul 28, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Can open... worms everywhere....
> 
> Im not one to dismiss any tool, but choke chains are pretty dangerous implements IMO. Id rather see a dog in a prong than a choke chain.
> 
> *ducks and hides*


Yes, I think I may have done, some strong opinions! 

*Just a note, I don't use them!*

Do you think they should be made illegal?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Nothing wrong with them *if used correctly*


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Kangarabbit said:


> Yes, I think I may have done, some strong opinions!
> 
> *Just a note, I don't use them!*
> 
> Do you think they should be made illegal?


I don't think that would be possible unless you banned everything with a tightening effect; slip collars, slip leads, tightening head collars etc. Probably not going to happen realistically.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

dandogman said:


> Nothing wrong with them *if used correctly*


 My view however not many would use correctly so would not recommend.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2014)

catpud said:


> the above sort of use I can sort of understand, but again you could just use a slip lead instead.





labradrk said:


> I don't think that would be possible unless you banned everything with a tightening effect; slip collars, slip leads, tightening head collars etc. Probably not going to happen realistically.


Since the can is already open, what's the difference to the dog between a choke chain and a slip lead?



dandogman said:


> Nothing wrong with them *if used correctly*


And what do you consider 'correct'? What are the 'correct' reasons for using one?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Slip leads are usually rope or leather, not a chain. When put on correctly, slip leads tighten when the dog pulls, and release when there is no pressure. There's very little difference between the majority of training aids, some put more *pressure* on than others, the difference is the amount of input we put in to train the dogs not to pull. 

On a side note, one of the worst leads I've seen are show leads, which are very thin and narrow, and, depending on the design, tighten in the same way. But used correctly, they work well, obviously they're not suitable for every day use but they *look* good.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> Since the can is already open, *what's the difference to the dog between a choke chain and a slip lead?*
> 
> And what do you consider 'correct'? What are the 'correct' reasons for using one?


Not a lot really - they can both be used in the same way after all. They are not harmful used on the right dog that doesn't pull or lunge. I suppose choke chains are still seen as a 'corrective' tool whereas slip leads and often just used as leads due to their ease of use.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

In my view they do what the name says "they choke" and damage the windpipes.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Slip leads are usually rope or leather, not a chain. When put on correctly, slip leads tighten when the dog pulls, and release when there is no pressure. There's very little difference between the majority of training aids, some put more *pressure* on than others, the difference is the amount of input we put in to train the dogs not to pull.
> 
> On a side note, one of the worst leads I've seen are show leads, which are very thin and narrow, and, depending on the design, tighten in the same way. But used correctly, they work well, obviously they're not suitable for every day use but they *look* good.


So apart from the material, choke chains, slip leads, and the show leads you describe actually all work in the same way.

I'm always bemused by the whole 'slip leads are good' thing. Yes, slip leads are great on a dog who doesn't pull because they're so easy to use, but I see SO MANY dogs on slip leads at agility events who are lunging around and pulling like mad, and yet people don't see the problem! But if all those people were using choke chains, that would be a different story!!!

I own one slip lead, and I only have it in case of emergency.

As you say, it's all in the training.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> So apart from the material, choke chains, slip leads, and the show leads you describe actually all work in the same way.
> 
> I'm always bemused by the whole 'slip leads are good' thing. Yes, slip leads are great on a dog who doesn't pull because they're so easy to use, but I see SO MANY dogs on slip leads at agility events who are lunging around and pulling like mad, and yet people don't see the problem! But if all those people were using choke chains, that would be a different story!!!
> 
> ...


They are only a good thing on the right dog. I totally agree with you that they are often misused but that is the same with anything, isn't it? head collars, crappy fitting harnesses, etc.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2014)

labradrk said:


> They are only a good thing on the right dog. I totally agree with you that they are often misused but that is the same with anything, isn't it? head collars, crappy fitting harnesses, etc.


Yes - but not misused to the same extent, that I see anyway. I never see many dogs on head collars, and a bad fitting harness isn't going to cause the same damage as a lunging dog on a slip lead. It's just agility where I see it - lots of hyped up dogs and people who are either following the 'agility dogs use slip leads' fad, or are just blind to their dog's safety.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The vast majority of heel work training I do with mine is off lead though. I wouldn't rely on a slip lead, or any other training aid to teach my dogs to walk to heel. Slip leads are good for dogs who have basic training, as I said, the lead will tighten if they pull, but also release if they are walking correctly. 

I don't know many gundog folk who have a problem with their dogs heeling, lots of them are rarely on lead anyway, but I don't see any on lead pulling into it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> Yes - but not misused to the same extent, that I see anyway. I never see many dogs on head collars, and a bad fitting harness isn't going to cause the same damage as a lunging dog on a slip lead. It's just agility where I see it - lots of hyped up dogs and people who are either following the 'agility dogs use slip leads' fad, or are just blind to their dog's safety.


Same for gundogs here....if I see I dog rasping for breath into a slip lead I can practically guarantee it's a Springer, Lab or similar. It's a gundog so it needs a slip lead, duh! sod the fact the dog can't breath. I'm sure they are innocently misguided but yes it's not nice to witness.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Like any tool it's open to abuse, so I don't agree with them.

On a side not have a slip lead but rubber stopper is push through so it doesn't tighten only used to walk him from house to garden, about 3 steps lol 

Also show leads and collars not all are the same we only ever use Cian's in the ring, as in normal collar comes off as we put his american slip collar on, comes out normal collar goes on, because it doesn't have the same effect as a choke or check or normal slip lead, 6mm of roll leather not going to with stand pulling from a male Rottweiler, young dogs tend to wear flat collars and those who might pull wear martingales fitted correctly.


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## Kangarabbit (Jul 28, 2013)

I'll admit, with one of our dogs we did use a choke chain as a deterrent for when he looses his head on walks but using a harness just for pulling (Halti dual lead) but when he started coughing a lot we realised that it really wasn't worth damaging his health and we're trying to find a safer method. 

I won't be using it again because I think it's a fine line between successful use and damage and it's not a line I'm willing to cross.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Have a read of this blog, I know Lizi and she's a lovely person who is incredibly passionate about her dogs:

Dog Blog: Head-collars

It explains how various head collars and harnesses work.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Anything around a dogs neck can be harmfull if they pull etc, as for Choke/ Check chains, that was the "norm" when I started training my dogs at classes some 30yrs ago never did mine any harm as long as they were put on the right way round and used properly


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2014)

Kinjilabs said:


> Anything around a dogs neck can be harmfull if they pull etc, as for Choke/ Check chains, that was the "norm" when I started training my dogs at classes some 30yrs ago never did mine any harm as long as they were put on the right way round and used properly


Surely we've made some progress with training methods in the past 30 years?


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> Surely we've made some progress with training methods in the past 30 years?


Oh yes  I wouldnt use one now but back then we were taught what was used then, things move on  but you can still buy them


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2014)

Yes, what IS the correct way to use a choke chain, Id be interested to know too....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yes, what IS the correct way to use a choke chain, Id be interested to know too....


I would like to know this too, know how to put them on correctly but would like to know what is the correct why to use them? Don't think I have ever had anyone explain that to me.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I would like to know this too, know how to put them on correctly but would like to know what is the correct why to use them? Don't think I have ever had anyone explain that to me.


I have  Over the years Ive had multiple people explain how to properly use a choke chain, and funnily enough, most of the time their explanations differ. Even to where some trainers will tell you to put it on backwards for certain situations.

Which leaves me wondering still what *is* the right way to use a choke chain?

And with all that information out there, how is your average pet owner to know how to use a choke chain correctly?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Not something I would ever use on my own dog. 

I dont even walk her on a fixed collar alot of the time as I worry baout possible neck damage and she has very sensitive ears. (Ear canal goes down in a dog as over the top as it may seem I cannot see how a collar can be comfortable). 

Alot of people in the agility world seem to favour slip leads - I see loads of dogs at the few competitions I have been to pullig on slip leads  And theres me putting a harness on Millie as soon as we are finished running at a comp or training 

I understand the need for control and I believe with an earlier poster would prefer to see a dog on a prong than a choke chain - at least a prong distributes pressure over a larger area. 

There are many methods of teaching a dog to walk nicely on a lead, many different harnesses or head collars on the market although nothing beats good old training.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

How to properly use a choke chain - YouTube

*How to use a choke chain.^^^^

I used a choke chain on both of my gsd's, and would use one again.*


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> How to properly use a choke chain - YouTube
> 
> *How to use a choke chain.^^^^
> 
> I used a choke chain on both of my gsd's, and would use one again.*


What warrants a correction?
How hard should youpop the chain for a correction?
What do you do if the correction you give has no effect? Is there a limit to how many corrections you should give or how hard they should be?
What age should the dog be to begin using a choke chain?
Are there breeds who should not wear choke chains?
Where should the collar lay on the neck, does it matter if its up by the ears or down by the shoulders or somewhere in the middle?
What structures are there in a dogs neck that could be damaged by even correct use of a choke chain?
How do you keep fur from being caught in the choke chain on heavier coated breeds?
What if the caught fur prevents the chain from releasing after the correction, what should you do then?
What if for whatever reason you need the dog to be on your right side and you find yourself having to give a correction, should you stop and switch the collar around or should you give the correction or...?

Just some potential questions as to the correct use of a choke chain


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Can't stand choke chains, will never use one and yes personally I would like to see them banned.

In my experience the risk of causing serious and/or long term damage is far too high, even with supposedly correct use.

And frankly, given that the only and entire purpose of a choke chain is to cause pain and momentarily cut off air supply, I don't see how anyone can claim this is safe and humane training! Sorry, I don't consider cutting off an animals air supply, even for a split second, to be acceptable.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The following may be of interest its a long read though. Pathologies of the dog associated with choke chains.

http://www.esao.eu/CLASSIC-LINK-LTD/memoires/MM-0478.pdf


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> Since the can is already open, what's the difference to the dog between a choke chain and a slip lead?


As has been said - the difference is mainly the material, also I suppose a slip lead is just a bit more comfortable and softer on the neck than a clunky chain. Lighter to carry around as well.

Both could technically be used as a choke chain I suppose.

In the way that my parents were using the choke chain, they were using it as a convenience (literally a lead that's quick to take on and off) which is why I never understood why they purchased a choke chain to do the job when slip leads are cheaper and easier to come by I suppose. I am sure they had their reasons though whether it was durability etc. I wouldn't want to put either a choke chain or a slip lead on a dog that pulls. I don't like the thought of them as training aids, but I have never used either a slip lead or choke chain for training.

I have also used slip leads when walking greyhounds - they were walked primarily with a collar and lead, but with a second slip lead just in case they slipped their main collar - if a dog pulls to back out on a slip lead it tightens to prevent escape, so it's a decent safety device that way.

I think that I see choke chains used more as a training aid, and slip leads used as a back up lead, or to take off and put on quickly. I have seen dogs pulling on choke chains in the name of training, but when people are using slip leads is more for the convenience and I rarely see them used as a training aid. So - for me the difference is that one is used to train a dog not to pull and the other is used on dogs who generally don't pull and are well trained. Obviously you will get people using slip leads for dogs who are pulling them across the road as well but I don't see that often.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

catpud said:


> As has been said - the difference is mainly the material, also I suppose a slip lead is just a bit more comfortable and softer on the neck than a clunky chain. Lighter to carry around as well.
> 
> Both could technically be used as a choke chain I suppose.


No, both ARE used as choke chains. Being made out of different materials doesn't change the fact that they work by the same mechanism. I know many people like to think that slip leads are somehow kinder, but both tighten round the neck when the dog pulls...


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Dimwit said:


> No, both ARE used as choke chains. Being made out of different materials doesn't change the fact that they work by the same mechanism. I know many people like to think that slip leads are somehow kinder, but both tighten round the neck when the dog pulls...


Yes but as I said - to me you do not use a slip lead on a dog that does pull - a slip lead is a convenience thing, for quick removal or putting on quickly - or with the greyhounds, in case their normal collar comes off. Not to put on a dog who pulls so it shouldn't tighten around the neck. In that way it is not used as a choke chain, the slip lead is used for a few moments at a time, on a well trained dog, and not as a training device.

I did not at any point say they were kinder when used in the same way as a choke chain - just that used the way my parents used them on my childhood dog, a slip lead would have been less bulky, and felt softer to the neck than a chain collar.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Maybe that is how slip leads are meant to be used, but unfortunately I see lots of dogs choking at the end of a slip lead because they're gundogs, and that's what gundogs are walked on. Or because they pull but the owner doesn't want to use a choke chain


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Dimwit said:


> Maybe that is how slip leads are meant to be used, but unfortunately I see lots of dogs choking at the end of a slip lead because they're gundogs, and that's what gundogs are walked on. Or because they pull but the owner doesn't want to use a choke chain


I'm lucky enough to have rarely seen a pulling dog on a slip lead, but there are a couple of times when I have and it does make me cringe.

I think it comes down to appropriate and safe use of equipment (just like with anything) and as you have pointed out, slip leads can be abused. If a dog is choking itself on the end of a slip lead then that to me is not appropriate use, other people may disagree.

The chains are marketed as training aids so I can see where some people would think - well they can both do the same thing - lets use the rope because it looks less nasty than the chain. I agree with you though, it is not kinder just because it is made of a softer material - used like a choke chain, it will still choke.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I've seen just as many dogs gasping for air as they drag their owner along on a flat collar. Any tool can be dangerous if the dog hasn't been taught not to pull.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Dimwit said:


> No, both ARE used as choke chains. Being made out of different materials doesn't change the fact that they work by the same mechanism. I know many people like to think that slip leads are somehow kinder, but both tighten round the neck when the dog pulls...


^^^ this.



catpud said:


> Yes but as I said - to me you do not use a slip lead on a dog that does pull - a slip lead is a convenience thing, for quick removal or putting on quickly - or with the greyhounds, in case their normal collar comes off. Not to put on a dog who pulls so it shouldn't tighten around the neck. In that way it is not used as a choke chain, the slip lead is used for a few moments at a time, on a well trained dog, and not as a training device.
> 
> I did not at any point say they were kinder when used in the same way as a choke chain - just that used the way my parents used them on my childhood dog, a slip lead would have been less bulky, and felt softer to the neck than a chain collar.


Honestly, most times I see a dog with a choke chain on, it's not being *trained*. The choke chain is the dog's default collar and any 'corrections' it receives are due to the dog being a 'bad dog' rather than intentional training.

Most times I see a dog on a slip lead, it isn't for a few moments in time, and it isn't for convenience. As I said, go to an agility show and you'll see the majority (I know, big call) of dogs on slip leads - some well-trained, others lunging all over the place. It takes me all of 1 second to clip a lead onto my dog's collar - no slower than sliding a loop over a dog's head IMO.

The fact that a slip lead is made out of softer material than chain probably doesn't make much of a difference to the dog who is having its air supply cut off. And have you ever had a burn from a rope? It doesn't tickle.


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> ^^^ this.
> 
> Honestly, most times I see a dog with a choke chain on, it's not being *trained*. The choke chain is the dog's default collar and any 'corrections' it receives are due to the dog being a 'bad dog' rather than intentional training.
> 
> ...


I don't think I am explaining myself very well.......

I don't agree with using a choke chain as a training device - even if there is a proper way to use them and I can imagine that a lot people just let the dog get on with it.

And yes some of those owners on agility class may have dogs lunging and jumping towards the end of the slip lead - that in my opinion is inappropriate use, just like a dog choking itself on a flat collar, it shouldn't happen, but people will use equipment in ways that we don't agree with. The owners with well behaved dogs using a slip lead on the other hand - well there isn't an issue there, it's being used safely.

My point is - used in the way that it is supposed to be used - it shouldn't be tightening around a dogs neck - cutting off air supply and causing rope burns, that happens when people use the equipment incorrectly or choose the wrong sort (for example if a dog is pulling into a collar you use a harness instead to avoid neck damage - you don't continue letting it pull into a collar)

There are ways to use them appropriately but like I said in my last post, I understand that people may use them like you have described, and I don't like that fact any more than you do


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm not a particular fan of check/choke chains, but the argument that there are inherently "cruel" doesn't really make sense.

It is the dog itself who chooses whether or not the collar tightens via pulling or not pulling, not the owner. Entirely under the dog's discretion to walk in synch with the owner.

So how can something that the dog elects to do itself be deemed cruel? Not really logical. Unless one deems ANY kind of restraining device, aka ANY collar, cruel.

I don't like them on the account that they are a choking hazard when the dog gallops around and snags himself. I also think they are ineffective as an anti-pulling device. If it really was painful, as with a prongue collar, the dog would stop pulling instantly. But a great many don't.

Things are rarely black or white and a choke collar is no exception. The product's advantages are that unlike with a flimsy plastic snap-close collar, they will never unexpectedly break in mid walk. There is also no risk that a dog will slip the collar at an inopportune moment - say, walking beside traffic - which can happen with a buckle closure collar. They also won't rot and are easy to keep clean.

As to trapping the dog's fur or skin - despite my reservations about them, they are actually very clever engineering. The way the individual links are joined and constructed means there is no way they can ever pinch the dog. I tried one on my neck, thigh and wrist and regardless how hard I yanked or pulled, it was impossible to pinch or trap skin or hair.

Can a check collar be abused? Absolutely. Jerking a dog around by it's neck is hardly the hallmark of good ownership or training. Never mind what type of collar the dog wears As a side note, the most prolific abuse involving dogs and chokechains during the height of their popularity involved "expert handlers" such as police dog handlers and "dog trainers". That was sadism in capital letters.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'm not a particular fan of check/choke chains, but the argument that there are inherently "cruel" doesn't really make sense.
> 
> It is the dog itself who chooses whether or not the collar tightens via pulling or not pulling, not the owner. Entirely under the dog's discretion to walk in synch with the owner.
> 
> So how can something that the dog elects to do itself be deemed cruel? Not really logical. Unless one deems ANY kind of restraining device, aka ANY collar, cruel.


You don't actually believe that, do you???

Dogs do not possess the logic required to understand that by _their_ actions are making the collar tighten and hurting them. It's the owner that needs to TRAIN the dog to walk on a loose lead and therefore avoid the lead tightening. What about when the dog loses control due to the presence of a prey animal - dog elected to choke itself because it was following its instincts? And even if the dog did understand that by pulling they are cutting off their air supply, it is our responsibility as owners to ensure that our dogs don't come to harm through their own doing. It's as ridiculous as saying it's the dog's fault for getting hit by a car, the dog elected to run out onto the road.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'm not a particular fan of check/choke chains, but the argument that there are inherently "cruel" doesn't really make sense.
> 
> It is the dog itself who chooses whether or not the collar tightens via pulling or not pulling, not the owner. Entirely under the dog's discretion to walk in synch with the owner.
> 
> ...


What?! Its called oppositional reflex. The reflex part meaning the dog is reacting on reflex, not by choice. Its how dogs get their collars snagged in crates and end up choking themselves to death. They dont CHOOSE to do that to themselves, good grief!
And dogs pull through prong collars all the time. Its called habituation or punishment callous.

As to the rest of your post, Ive seen plenty of broken choke chains, you can prevent collar slipping with a martingale with limited slip, plenty of other materials dont rot and clean easily (seriously this is a reason for choosing a choke chain? ), and unless youre as furry as a Sasquatch and have skin folds like a neo mastiff Im not sure how trying it on your own neck, thigh and wrist equates to a choke chain will *never* pinch skin or get caught in hair. Though I am strangely impressed that you put it on that many body parts


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> You don't actually believe that, do you???
> 
> *Dogs do not possess the logic required to understand that by their actions are making the collar tighten and hurting them. * It's the owner that needs to TRAIN the dog to walk on a loose lead and therefore avoid the lead tightening. What about when the dog loses control due to the presence of a prey animal - dog elected to choke itself because it was following its instincts? And even if the dog did understand that by pulling they are cutting off their air supply, it is our responsibility as owners to ensure that our dogs don't come to harm through their own doing. It's as ridiculous as saying it's the dog's fault for getting hit by a car, the dog elected to run out onto the road.


I very much do believe this, yes.

I also believe, indeed know, that dogs are incredibly intelligent animals. There are not some fluffy dimwits who need a human to tell them what hurts and what doesn't.

According to your theory, dogs are either masochists or so dumb that they can't distinguish and work out that pulling hurts and not pulling doesn't. Which is an insult to an animal with their intelligence or sensitivity.

Dogs pull on a choke collar because it doesn't hurt. Not because they are stupid. The only thing this demonstrates is that a check collar is ineffective to prevent pulling. Which is a very different issue from the collar being "cruel"


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> *Dogs pull on a choke collar because it doesn't hurt.* Not because they are stupid. The only thing this demonstrates is that a check collar is ineffective to prevent pulling. Which is a very different issue from the collar being "cruel"


Sorry, but that is wholly incorrect.
Dogs pull on choke chains because of oppositional reflex.
Dogs pull on choke chains because what they are trying to get to is more motivating to them than the pain of the collar tightening.
Dogs pull on choke chains because they habituate to the sensation of being choked, aka they develop a punishment callous.
Dogs pull on choke chains because they are so aroused by the environment that they dont feel the pain in that moment.

NOT because it doesnt hurt.

Dogs are masters of masking and ignoring pain. Surely youve seen dogs continue to work and play despite serious injuries?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but that is wholly incorrect.
> Dogs pull on choke chains because of oppositional reflex.
> Dogs pull on choke chains because what they are trying to get to is more motivating to them than the pain of the collar tightening.
> Dogs pull on choke chains because they habituate to the sensation of being choked, aka they develop a "punishment callous".
> ...


Actually, all of the above are true. Agreed.

But if you have ever tried a choke collar on yourself and tried to pull hard against it and then swapped the choke collar with a normal collar, the EXACT same thing still applies. Pulling hard against something relatively narrow around your neck isn't pleasant.

HOW much more unpleasant one vs. the other collar is is hard to discern. Would a dog rather wear a wide choke collar or a narrow buckle collar? My personal preference would be an XL wide Greyhound type buckle collar but this doesn't lend itself to every breed or dog, or rather their neck.

Its all a bit of a moot issue, anyhow. Who still uses choke chains these days? A few decades ago that was all there was, but these days?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> You don't actually believe that, do you???
> 
> Dogs do not possess the logic required to understand that by _their_ actions are making the collar tighten and hurting them. It's the owner that needs to TRAIN the dog to walk on a loose lead and therefore avoid the lead tightening. What about when the dog loses control due to the presence of a prey animal - dog elected to choke itself because it was following its instincts? And even if the dog did understand that by pulling they are cutting off their air supply, it is our responsibility as owners to ensure that our dogs don't come to harm through their own doing. It's as ridiculous as saying it's the dog's fault for getting hit by a car, the dog elected to run out onto the road.


Agree!

One of mine would continue pulling on a choke chain until she asphyxiated herself. Especially if there was something small and furry in sight. It would be lovely to think you can slap a training device on them and bingo! they associate the pain with pulling and stop but sadly that doesn't happen.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Actually, all of the above are true. Agreed.
> 
> But if you have ever tried a choke collar on yourself and tried to pull hard against it and then swapped the choke collar with a normal collar, the EXACT same thing still applies. Pulling hard against something relatively narrow around your neck isn't pleasant.
> 
> ...


So which is it then? Choke chains arent painful or they are?
FWIW, there is a difference in sensation between a noose that continues to tighten when you pull and a flat collar that does not have unlimited tightening potential. 
And a lot of people still use choke chains. Been to a breed show lately?


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

If my dog sees a rabbit running there is NOTHING that makes any difference to her desire to get to it. I am sure she would be prepared to seriously hurt herself to get to the rabbit. Terriers are bred to have seriously high pain thresholds due to their work - they'll get completely ripped up by whatever they're hunting and still be going for it. Just because my dog will work through the pain when her instincts take over doesn't mean I should be CAUSING her pain.

Ooooo what about the argument that the dog is pulling to get _away_ from the pain???

Unfortunately I still see a large number of dogs on choke chains. But hey, maybe we're just backwards here


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> So which is it then? Choke chains arent painful or they are?
> FWIW, there is a difference in sensation between a noose that continues to tighten when you pull and a flat collar that does not have unlimited tightening potential.
> And a lot of people still use choke chains. Been to a breed show lately?


LOL! This is somewhat a surreal exchange. Because it appears that I argue FOR something that I essentially don't care for. Not because the collar is inherently "cruel" but because there are more effective devices and techniques.

Sigh...ok, then.

Is it painful? It is a couple of decades ago since I used a choke chain, or that I have seen choke chains used routinely, but I have never observed any signs of overt, expressed pain either in my own die-hard puller, friends dogs, fellow dog walkers dogs or any other dog. Be that via yelping, whimpering, never mind via stopping to pull.

I have never seen or heard of dogs laying unconcious as a result of pulling whilst wearing the collar. I HAVE heard of dogs snagging and strangling themselves on a choke collar whilst off leash. I have never heard or read of a choke chain breaking. Conversely, I had a snap- closure collar break on me ( dog wans't pulling, it just disintegrated for no discernable reason) and I had a young dog slip a buckle closure collar ( he saw his dad approaching and had to get to him ASAP). Both times I was in town with the dogs with traffic going past me. Not the ultimate experience. In which I would have joyfully swapped those collars for a choke chain. Which the dogs didn't have because their owner didn't like them.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> LOL! This is somewhat a surreal exchange. Because it appears that I argue FOR something that I essentially don't care for. Not because the collar is inherently "cruel" but because there are more effective devices and techniques.
> 
> Sigh...ok, then.
> 
> ...


Because of course people will just allow their dogs to choke themselves unconscious!

Also less your in to inflicting pain on yourself or have a very high pain threshold your not ever really going to know what pain choke chains can inflict kind of mother nature thing not wanting us humans to harm ourselves!

Although for real life experience, hook the lead on to something it can't move, or slip off, pop the choke chain on, making sure it is on correctly, run full speed, and don't stop till that chain and lead ping you back and repeat, or just do the first bit, and just lean all your weight in to it try not to stop when you can't breath until some else loosen it for you, might be a bit more realistic!


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> LOL! This is somewhat a surreal exchange. Because it appears that I argue FOR something that I essentially don't care for. Not because the collar is inherently "cruel" but because there are more effective devices and techniques.
> 
> Sigh...ok, then.
> 
> Is it painful? It is a couple of decades ago since I used a choke chain, or that I have seen choke chains used routinely, but I have never observed any signs of overt, expressed pain either in my own die-hard puller, friends dogs, fellow dog walkers dogs or any other dog. Be that via yelping, whimpering, never mind via stopping to pull.


Am I understanding you correctly? Unless a dog shows overt signs of pain, we can assume something is not painful?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Because of course people will just allow their dogs to choke themselves unconscious!
> 
> Also less your in to inflicting pain on yourself or have a very high pain threshold your not ever really going to know what pain choke chains can inflict kind of mother nature thing not wanting us humans to harm ourselves!
> 
> Although for real life experience, hook the lead on to something it can't move, or slip off, pop the choke chain on, making sure it is on correctly, run full speed, and don't stop till that chain and lead ping you back and repeat, or just do the first bit, and just lean all your weight in to it try not to stop when you can't breath until some else loosen it for you, might be a bit more realistic!


None of this makes any sense.

How would someone be able to stop a dog from pulling themselves unconcious? By taking the collar off in mid walk and mid traffic? By running faster than the dog can pull forward?

Choke chains aren't mandatory. If owners don't like to use them on their dogs for whatever reason, they won't use them. End of. There is no need to make a gratuitous argument out of them.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> None of this makes any sense.
> 
> How would someone be able to stop a dog from pulling themselves unconcious? By taking the collar off in mid walk and mid traffic? By running faster than the dog can pull forward?
> 
> Choke chains aren't mandatory. If owners don't like to use them on their dogs for whatever reason, they won't use them. End of. There is no need to make a gratuitous argument out of them.


Is that how people teach their dog not to pull? What about the old standards of stopping, turning round, treats etc?

Not making a gratuitous argument merely making two points, one about and given your not a dog nor have a dogs pain threshold nor have you worn a choke chain round your neck in the same fashion as a dog, with you not having any control of it you can not say it doesn't hurt!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Am I understanding you correctly? Unless a dog shows overt signs of pain, we can assume something is not painful?


Oesi, what is your prime objective and impetus here?

Are you bored and are lookimg for an argument to kill time? Or is the objective to expose me as someone who lives to cause dogs needless pain? Or do you need to exhibit some moral or ethical superiority because you are feeling down and need to boost your morale? Or...?

If you could give me some kind of a pointer, that would be really helpful. Because I don't get what it is that you are after.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Oesi, what is your prime objective and impetus here?
> 
> Are you bored and are lookimg for an argument to kill time? Or is the objective to expose me as someone who lives to cause dogs needless pain? Or do you need to exhibit some moral or ethical superiority because you are feeling down and need to boost your morale? Or...?
> 
> If you could give me some kind of a pointer, that would be really helpful. Because I don't get what it is that you are after.


LOL... I was simply making sure I understood you correctly before I replied.

But thanks for the glimpse in to how YOUR mind works. That sure does explain a lot


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> LOL... I was simply making sure I understood you correctly before I replied.
> 
> But thanks for the glimpse in to how YOUR mind works. That sure does explain a lot


How is that a useful pointer???

And the reply given does explain a lot. Moral upmanship is is, then. Bonne nuit!


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

Why does it always have to get personal? This has been a really interesting thread and I hope it's made a lot of people really question what they believe and why - not just the people posting but also the people reading.

Why does it have to descend into silly personal comments?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> Why does it always have to get personal? This has been a really interesting thread and I hope it's made a lot of people really question what they believe and why - not just the people posting but also the people reading.
> 
> Why does it have to descend into silly personal comments?


:wink: Because some people sink to the bottom? Graham's heirachy of disagreement.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

moonviolet said:


> :wink: Because some people sink to the bottom? Graham's heirachy of disagreement.


:lol: :lol: :lol: That's brilliant :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> How is that a useful pointer???
> 
> And the reply given does explain a lot. Moral upmanship is is, then. Bonne nuit!


That you wont reply unless I let you in on my agenda says a lot yes.

My agenda is education and encouraging owners to make informed decisions when it comes to the welfare of their dogs.

To that end, I asked you to clarify if you meant to say that if a dog does not show overt signs of pain we can assume something is not painful.

My reply is that would be a very INcorrect assumption.

Dogs mask pain all the time. In part it is a survival thing, in part it has been bred in to them, sometimes it is simply an adrenaline thing.

My dog did this to himself running around in the woods chasing stuff:








He never yelped, he never vocalized at all, he never stopped running around, never slowed down, never lost the silly smile on his face.
I put my hand on his side to pet him and my hand came away covered in blood, thats how I knew he was hurt. Later he did show pain. A few hours after we came in and I had dug out most of the debris, before I took him in to get stitched back up.

Basically, deciding on a tool based on whether or not the dog appears to be in pain or not is a poor measure of a tool. Choke chains - even when used correctly (whatever that is) can and do inflict a lot of damage on delicate neck structures from vertebrae and nerves, to affecting blood supply to the head and front feet, to thyroid and tracheal damage etc. 
Some research suggests that the act of constricting the neck causes the dog to release stress hormones (cortisol) and that those levels remain elevated long after the choke chain correction(s) happened and continue to affect the dogs behavior and stress levels long after the use of the collar.

There are far better tools out there with fewer potential for damage and misuse.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The product's advantages are that unlike with a flimsy plastic snap-close collar, they will never unexpectedly break in mid walk. There is also no risk that a dog will slip the collar at an inopportune moment - say, walking beside traffic - which can happen with a buckle closure collar.


I strongly disagree with both of these. I have had 2 choke chains snap on me mid walk. And my collie was able to slip a correctly fitted one with a sudden stop and drop of his head if I wasn't quick enough to tighten it. A drawback to the shape of his head and neck I think but I don't think any piece of equipment is 100% fail safe.

I experimented with a choke chain on my wrist not long ago. I found an old one in a box that had been in storage for years when we moved here and decided I'd see if it hurt me. So I put it on my wrist and yanked. It hurt. Quite a bit actually. Especially where the sliding ring came into contact, that bit pinched and left a bruise. I imagine it would hurt a lot more on the neck (I didn't try it as the chain I have won't fit over my head lol). Even with fur to cushion it a little. Especially up round the ears where I see people recommend using them. And yes, I've heard many a dog yelp when corrected on a choke chain.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The vast majority of heel work training I do with mine is off lead though. I wouldn't rely on a slip lead, or any other training aid to teach my dogs to walk to heel. Slip leads are good for dogs who have basic training, as I said, the lead will tighten if they pull, but also release if they are walking correctly.
> 
> I don't know many gundog folk who have a problem with their dogs heeling, lots of them are rarely on lead anyway, but I don't see any on lead pulling into it.


I've seen a photo of one of your dogs on here, pulling in to a rather thin looking slip lead.

I've used one myself and my Springer still pulled, in fact she pulled more. 

Found it. 
http://i44.tinypic.com/6e1wer.jpg[/IMG]


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> None of this makes any sense.
> 
> *How would someone be able to stop a dog from pulling themselves unconcious? *By taking the collar off in mid walk and mid traffic? By running faster than the dog can pull forward?
> 
> Choke chains aren't mandatory. If owners don't like to use them on their dogs for whatever reason, they won't use them. End of. There is no need to make a gratuitous argument out of them.


Ummm, by teaching the dog how to LLW the same way that many have been using for generations... Positive training is not a newfangled thing, not everyone has felt that they needed to use choking a dog as a way to teach them to walk properly....

By your theory my dog wasn't in pain when he sliced open his carpal pad because he was still bouncing around wanting me to throw his ball.....A dog does not have to show pain at the time of an incident, and just because a dog does not show that he is in pain does not mean that he is not in pain....
If it wasn't for the fact that Thai had blood pouring from his leg I would not have known anything was wrong.... Once Thai had calmed down tho, he was in agony until the pain relief kicked in..

We used to use choke/check chains when I was a young kid, I wasn't keen on them then when I had no knowledge of what they can do.....to use them now when we know the damage they cause (even when used correctly, no dog is 100% and all it takes is for a squirrel to run out in front of a dog with a chain on for them to injure themselves) is lazy (in my opinion of course).

It all boils down to one thing for me, time and time again.....

*Just because something works, does not make it right or ethical to use it.*
Pretty certain that there will be people out there that still believe rubbing a puppies nose in their poo is an awesome way to toilet train.....well it worked 20 years ago, right?

Yes there will be some that will use them correctly (how ever that is, no one has convinced me that they have a place as of yet), but the vast majority will NOT use them correctly and as we have many, many, many tools that can take the place of a check chain I personally do not see a need for them to be on sale at all :frown2:


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

kat&molly said:


> I've seen a photo of one of your dogs on here, pulling in to a rather thin looking slip lead.
> 
> I've used one myself and my Springer still pulled, in fact she pulled more.
> 
> ...


I wonder sometimes how much habituation goes on on the human end of the leash.

Years ago I remember telling a trainer that my dog had good leash manners, and I truly believed he did. But with just a few simple heel patterns it was evident that what I though was decent leash manners left a lot to be desired. Basically we couldn't do a simple heeling pattern with a loop in the leash. The leash stayed in a straight line. Not tight mind you, but no loop.

It was a big eye opener for me that what I thought was a loose leash wasn't so loose after all. I had just gotten used to it.

And a cautionary lesson when it comes to how much pressure these collars with unlimited tightening potential are exerting on our dogs' necks. We might not think it's that tight, but that just may be habituation on both the dog and the human's part.


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