# Dominance and submissiveness



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Certainly, I don't think outdated 'dominance' theories are going to help.


Can we learn anything usefull by studying a dogs behaviour? I certainly think we can.

Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA

Some trainers that are very successful, using this theory; Cesar Millan is the most famous and still very successful.

Dogs can learn very quickly that aggression works to make people back off. If they learn this, the behaviour will worsen. So this is where the dominance comes into play. This is not about rewarding behaviour vs being leader of the pack; but sure it is about understanding dog behaviour.


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## CarlyWoody (Jan 22, 2013)

I think I will just sit here and eat popcorn - this is going to be good!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Yey!! my Ignore list is going up again...
I`m soon going to be talking to myself...
my last word on the subject is:

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

How to be Completely Dominant Over Your Dog- dog training - YouTube


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

El Cid said:


> Can we learn anything usefull by studying a dogs behaviour? I certainly think we can.
> 
> *I think that goes without saying.*
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA
> ...


I am afraid that dominance does NOT come into play with aggression.

How many dominant dogs with aggression have you actually worked with?

Or are your statements made from a position of no experience?

Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Canine Dominance Revisited | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Object not found! ... inance.htm
Debunking Dominance Theory | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112711.htm
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/
http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011 ... -nonsense/
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-arti ... nce-debate
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/con ... nce-debate


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

And another very good link - 
Dominance Behaviour in Canids


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Or are your statements made from a position of no experience?
> 
> Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> Canine Dominance Revisited | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> ...


I am a self-taught dog owner, just looking for opinions. I dont think qualifications matter on here. People read the good and bad advise, and choose. Does anyone on here claim to be an expert? What I do with my dog works very well, I am just an ordinary person.
This is obviously a very touchy subject, surprisingly, since dominance can be observed in people and many other animals. Are people on here claiming it doesnt exist?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

El Cid said:


> I am a self-taught dog owner, just looking for opinions. I dont think qualifications matter on here. People read the good and bad advise, and choose. Does anyone on here claim to be an expert? What I do with my dog works very well, I am just an ordinary person.
> This is obviously a very touchy subject, surprisingly, since dominance can be observed in people and many other animals. Are people on here claiming it doesnt exist?


If you predicated your posts with something like "I am interested in the debates around dominance, what do people think" then you would get responses in a different vein.

Unfortunately you rarely ask a question, you just make statements as if they are fact.

Ie re Cesar Milan, it is not a FACT that he is successful at all, nor is it a fact that he is a dog trainer.

_"Dogs can learn very quickly that aggression works to make people back off. If they learn this, the behaviour will worsen. So this is where the dominance comes into play. This is not about rewarding behaviour vs being leader of the pack; but sure it is about understanding dog behaviour"_

These are not questions but statements and I am not sure they are even your own words.....................

Try posing your queries as just that, rather than making rash statements which are not substantiated by facts and you may find you get a more reasoned response.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

I'll start with a warning/alert/excuse: I am no expert, just someone who's been around dogs for a long time, and I've watched loads of 'experts', from dear old Barbara to Mr Milan. I am also a parent (the relevance of that will, I hope, become apparent).

Back when I trained my first dog, a border collie, being the pack leader was all anyone ever talked about. So, I guess training involved ensuring my dog knew that I was dominant. (But by that, I do NOT mean kicking, shouting or hitting!!) Even when I got my standard poodles, twelve or so years ago, the advice was to make sure that I went through doors first, kept the dogs on the floor while I had the furniture, fed the humans before the animals, etc etc etc.

Now, my understanding of the current situation is that the dog fraternity has 'gone off' the dominance/pack leader idea because dogs do not, and have never, lived/functioned like a pack of wolves: is that right?

This is where being a parent comes in. I have never considered myself to be dominant over my daughter. However, I did (when she was younger), think of myself as her 'pack leader' in that it was my responsibility to keep her safe, to teach her things, and sometimes, for her own good, to say, "No, we're not doing it that way, we're doing it THIS way." Isn't that just what we're doing for our dogs, being good parents?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Some trainers that are very successful, using this theory; Cesar Millan is the most famous and still very successful.
> 
> So what in your opinion makes CM very successful? What do you see in a dog that he's "training"? What signals do you get from these dogs?
> 
> ...


I have no issue with people debating stuff, but what I can't stand is when people copy and paste text from else where and pass it as their own thoughts and insights it's the worst form of plagiarism in my eyes, because they don't understand what they are copy and pasting.

So I'd be interested to know why you think the above, what in your experience and 6 months of dog ownership has made you think the above is fact?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

El Cid said:


> This is obviously a very touchy subject, surprisingly, since dominance can be observed in people and many other animals. Are people on here claiming it doesn't exist?


Read the link I quoted above. It explains it all, in good detail.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well I know Rhuna's plotting to take over the world, and anything that moves is hers to retrieve. Indie's not bothered, Zasa doesn't understand the question and Tau just wants to take over my bacon buttie. Yep, world domination by dogs is on the cards, mark my words!


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

Just thought I would make it clear the title of my link is satirical, it's kikopups dominance video. 

Just occurred to me people may see the title and not realise


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> I am a self-taught dog owner, just looking for opinions. I dont think qualifications matter on here. People read the good and bad advise, and choose. Does anyone on here claim to be an expert? What I do with my dog works very well, I am just an ordinary person.
> This is obviously a very touchy subject, surprisingly, since dominance can be observed in people and many other animals. Are people on here claiming it doesnt exist?


I don't think anyone claims to be an expert on here, other than those who are qualified experts.

People might read good and bad advice, but I also think people need to be directed to the correct advice and not the outdated proven to be incorrect advice, it's not like that information is not out there, if you want debate it, it's advised you have something to back up your false claims, because while you might be a self taught dog owner and what you do works very well for you in your opinion, there are people who have worked with aggressive dogs, and who train dogs for a living, attend seminars world wide, or who are qualified who might disagree about how well it works and what WILL work better


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I have no issue with people debating stuff, but what I can't stand is when people copy and paste text from else where and pass it as their own thoughts and insights it's the worst form of plagiarism in my eyes, because they don't understand what they are copy and pasting.
> 
> So I'd be interested to know why you think the above, what in your experience and 6 months of dog ownership has made you think the above is fact?


Cesar Milan has dropped out of favour now, but he is still running a successful business as a dog trrainer and TV personality; I dont need to own a dog to see that he has made it big time.

I am not saying dominance training is the best method, I dont conscously use it myself. But I do see all around me, people that have issues with confidence and their inability to a dominant - as a teacher needs to be.
As many, but not all, of my good teachers at school were. Would you describe most of your teachers submisive?
As you say, people are posting links "copy and paste" to answer a question that has not been asked.
If I had used the word confidence, instead of dominance, this would have been a very different debate. But people are very narrow minded.

When I describe my own dog to people, I say she is very submissive, but confident. That was half of the title of this thread


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Cesar Milan has dropped out of favour now, but he is still running a successful business as a dog trrainer and TV personality; I dont need to own a dog to see that he has made it big time.
> 
> I am not saying dominance training is the best method, I dont conscously use it myself. But I do see all around me, people that have issues with confidence and their inability to a dominant - as a teacher needs to be.
> As many, but not all, of my good teachers at school were. Would you describe most of your teachers submisive?
> ...


What makes him a successful trainer in your opinion? What about his training methods do you think, in your opinion works? Again what do you see in the body language of the dogs he " trains"?

What is dominance training?

People have nothing to do with this debate? You can not equate dogs to humans.

So why do you think a dog who uses aggression is "dominate" what place do you think "dominance" has is aggression?

Shy and confident, dominant and submissive are totally different things so yes there would be a very different debate.

How are people narrow minded?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Does dominance exist? I'm sure it does actually, if not in the way people like CM think. But the vast majority of things I see described as the dog being dominant actually have other explanations that make far more sense. A dog who is aggressive towards other dogs is very often afraid of them, not dominant. A dog who guards its food is afraid of having its food taken away, not dominant. A dog who pulls on leash isn't dominant, it lacks training. A dog who jumps up isn't doing so because it's dominant. 

Dominance is the easy, go to label for way too many people for way too many behaviours. And believe me, once you start looking for signs that your dog is dominant you will find them. And the more you find the more you look and the more you find and the more you look. 

I'm not actually sure why people feel the need to look for dominance in their dogs. We don't look for it in other pets so why in dogs?


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Shy and confident, dominant and submissive are totally different things so yes there would be a very different debate.


I think that you need to stop using so many question marks and look in the dictionary.



> have power and influence over


Is it wrong to "have power and influence over" over a dog?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> I think that you need to stop using so many question marks and look in the dictionary.
> 
> Is it wrong to "have power and influence over" over a dog?


See this is the thing, you make bold statements yet you can't explain them.

Why is a aggression in a dog dominance?

I don't want nor do I need power over my dogs......


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Okay, dictionary definitions of dominant that I've found are all basically this


> Having power and influence over others:


In that case then yes, I'm dominant over my dog. I control all the resources therefore I hold all the power. That was easy.

But how sad to want to break down a relationship with a much loved pet to just that


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Can we learn anything usefull by studying a dogs behaviour? I certainly think we can.
> 
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA
> 
> ...


A successful trainer does not a good trainer make....I.E....being on TV and appearing to have many clients does not mean you can actually train...

You really want to learn anything from this fool?

[youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]

Humans do NOT need to dominate dogs full stop..
Of course dogs show dominate behaviour, as do humans, but the difference is that dogs realise we are not dogs so do not waste their time trying to dominate us...shame the humans can't work that out.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Why is a aggression in a dog dominance?


When scientists use terms like dominant and subordinate, theyre referring to a relationship between individuals. But when people use labels like dominant and alpha in casual conversation, theyre usually referring to an individual dogs characteristics or attributes, such as confidence, fearlessness, assertiveness or aggressiveness.

Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> I am a self-taught dog owner, just looking for opinions. I dont think qualifications matter on here. People read the good and bad advise, and choose. Does anyone on here claim to be an expert? What I do with my dog works very well, I am just an ordinary person.
> This is obviously a very touchy subject, surprisingly, since dominance can be observed in people and many other animals. Are people on here claiming it doesnt exist?


Of course dominance exists, it just doesnt mean what you think it means, nor does it apply to our relationship with our dogs the way you think it applies.
Error 406 - Not Acceptable
(The link looks like an error, but it works just fine.)

What you do with your dog works very well? Great. Your ONE dog. Who is 6 months old. That youve probably had for 4 of those 6 months. That last I checked was running in to the road to chase joggers...

One thing I love about dogs is that they teach us humility 



Meezey said:


> I don't think anyone claims to be an expert on here, other than those who are qualified experts.


Pfft, speak for yourself! I am an expert - an expert BS detector!


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> In that case then yes, I'm dominant over my dog. I control all the resources therefore I hold all the power. That was easy.
> 
> But how sad to want to break down a relationship with a much loved pet to just that


Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> When scientists use terms like "dominant" and "subordinate," they're referring to a relationship between individuals. But when people use labels like "dominant" and "alpha" in casual conversation, they're usually referring to an individual dog's characteristics or attributes, such as confidence, fearlessness, assertiveness or aggressiveness.
> 
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA


I'm not sure why your copy and pasting this to me? I'm asking YOU a question, why do you think aggression relates to dominance? Why is a dog learning that aggression make people back off a sign of "dominance"?

You are aware the stuff you are linking to is saying dominance is bull?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. *Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet.* I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


From that statement alone it shows you know nothing about that case and have zero understanding of body language.

Do you actually want a discussion on this or do you just wish to tell us how much you know from your 6 months of dog ownership?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


You really haven't a clue have you? :nonod: So heres the thing, you can either keep spouting your regurgitated guff that you don't really understand, or you can learn... Seemingly you want to just spout guff.. :huh:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


Someone please take your spade away, it's becoming daft the big hole you're digging yourself. That video shows a dog that is frightened being pushed to the edge and given no option but to bite. The only reason it bites is because the stupid *trainer* thinks it's great to bully dogs *out* of their problems, when all he does is bully dogs to hide their problems, sometimes not even that. In the end, the family lost their pet, because CM's training methods made her more unpredictable. The outcome for the poor dog was that she had to go and live with CM, can't think of anything worse!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


Really? when was that in the 1950's? I've been married for 30 years now and my OH has never once tried to be dominant and neither have I for that matter, its a partnership and teamwork much like our relationship with our dogs. During those 30 years we've been blessed with some wonderful dogs, german shepherds, pointers, rotties, some rescues some not, some damaged some not, some aggressive some not. The most aggressive/difficult being our last rottie girl who bit us on several occasions and was people/dog aggressive. A less dominant dog you wouldn't find anywhere but my god she would have been dangerous if I had tried to manage her in the ways CM or his people suggest. With all these dogs I have never felt the need to beat my chest and roar, to eat before them, to keep them off the furniture or prevent them going through doors before me, every single one of them has slept on my bed.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh stop!!! Youre cracking me up now....

Men are more dominant in a marriage? What kind of marriage do you have?! This is 2014, not 1914.

My relationship with my OH is a partnership, as is, unsurprisingly, my relationship with my dogs. We have a relationship of mutual trust and respect, and and effective system of communication. I understand them, they understand me, and we cooperate with each other because we trust one another.

In the video clip CM got bitten. Pretty good bite too. And it was totally avoidable. I wouldnt call that making a problem dog safe. I call that saddling a dog with a bite history. You do know that once a dog has been driven to bite, they will invariably bite again, with less provocation. What a GREAT thing to do to a dog to try and make her a safe family pet - NOT.

So, if according to you dominance is aggressiveness, do you condone violence in a marriage also? Hrm....


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

I feel sad for your dog El Cid 

I genuinely mean that. Your poor puppy came to you, pretty much a blank slate and you had the potential to create an incredible relationship and bond and instead all you have taught it in it's short life is that is needs to be submissive to survive. 

Shame on you. 

(And yes I am well aware that I have jumped to MANY conclusions as to how you interact with your puppy, but anyone who defends that twunt CM leaves themselves open for that IMO)


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> *Someone please take your spade away, it's becoming daft the big hole you're digging yourself.* That video shows a dog that is frightened being pushed to the edge and given no option but to bite. The only reason it bites is because the stupid *trainer* thinks it's great to bully dogs *out* of their problems, when all he does is bully dogs to hide their problems, sometimes not even that. In the end, the family lost their pet, because CM's training methods made her more unpredictable. The outcome for the poor dog was that she had to go and live with CM, can't think of anything worse!


LOL I just said the same thing to this poster on the Aggressive Pit thread 

Hey El Cid, most people are giving the same advice to put down the shovel. :lol:


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

I haven't even collected my puppy and I'd wager I have more dog sense than you.

You know why? Because I get animals. I instinctively want them to feel loved, safe and part of my family.

And I take the time to read, digest and *learn*

Not put my fingers in my ears and say la la la la la over everyone trying to helpfully explain how methods have evolved.

People treating animals like **** makes me so angry.

Twunt.

(And yes this is worth getting a potential warning for)


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I'm not sure why your copy and pasting this to me? I'm asking YOU a question, why do you think aggression relates to dominance? Why is a dog learning that aggression make people back off a sign of "dominance"?
> 
> You are aware the stuff you are linking to is saying dominance is bull?


The link says that dominance theory is buil, is anyone promoting dominance theory?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


You are currently at the stage of unconscious incompetence in the world of dogs.

It is a phase that we ALL go through in ALL areas before (hopefully) we move to

Conscious incompetence

which may be followed by

conscious competence

and finally, if you are lucky,

unconscious competence

There is nothing wrong in this.

The problem is that you are trying to convince others that you have some idea of what you are talking about and failing as a) you are not using your own words b) not acknowledging where you have uplifted text from elsewherre and c) because one or two of us have had more than one dog over a little longer than 6 months.

As that mysognist sketch states.

KNOW YOUR LIMITS!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> The link says that dominance theory is buil, is anyone promoting dominance theory?


"Dogs can learn very quickly that aggression works to make people back off. If they learn this, the behaviour will worsen.* So this is where the dominance comes into play*"
You still haven't answered my question. Why if a dog learns that aggression makes people back of is it considered dominate?

Do you have amnesia? You really don't have any idea what you are talking about, how do you expect people to debate something when you don't even understand the topic?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Not the first person who has come to the forum, having owned one dog for all of two minutes, and believes they must educate the rest of us.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> You are currently at the stage of unconscious incompetence in the world of dogs.
> 
> It is a phase that we ALL go through in ALL areas before (hopefully) we move to
> 
> ...


Love it  Except I was always told that conscious competence trumps unconscious competence since the one who is consciously competent is aware of what they are doing and why it works (and is thus better able to share that knowledge). As opposed to say just having good instincts but not really being conscious of what they are doing and why it works.

But I digress.... Back to the regularly scheduled dominance discussion


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> The problem is that you are trying to convince others that you have some idea of what you are talking about and failing.


I tried to start a debate about dominance and submissiveness, but the only thing that posters are interested in is DOMINANCE THEORY.

As I posted, my pup is very submissive and sociable, she goes up to other dogs and lies on her back. I know roughly what dominance theory is, but I dont use it, at all.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> I tried to start a debate about dominance and submissiveness, but the only thing that posters are interested in is DOMINANCE THEORY.
> 
> As I posted, my pup is very submissive and sociable, she goes up to other dogs and lies on her back. I know roughly what dominance theory is, but I dont use it, at all.


Because in your opening post you made claims about dominance? You've avoiding answering any questions asked of you buy taking stuff from else where, you've dug yourself in to a hole. If you want to learn or debate something do so with your own words, and even better a subject you understand...

So if we ignore the dominance, why do you think you dog is submissive?


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> I tried to start a debate about dominance and submissiveness, but the only thing that posters are interested in is DOMINANCE THEORY.
> 
> As I posted, my pup is very submissive and sociable, she goes up to other dogs and lies on her back. I know roughly what dominance theory is, but I dont use it, at all.


Can you please highlight the part of your OP where we are we supposed to understand that your intent was to start a debate about dominance and submissiveness?

You bemoan that the only thing posters are interested in is dominance theory, but that is exactly what you posted about in your OP when referencing CM.

Genuine question: do you read your own posts?



El Cid said:


> Can we learn anything usefull by studying a dogs behaviour? I certainly think we can.
> 
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA
> 
> ...


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Meezey said:


> So if we ignore the dominance, why do you think you dog is submissive?


Like it says in the link, my dog is likely to be submissive due to her age and size. She is always very submissive with certain local Alsatian.
Dare I mention the local dominant/agressive Jack Russel


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Can we learn anything usefull by studying a dogs behaviour? I certainly think we can.
> 
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA
> 
> ...


So regarding using aggression to make people back off - how does that equal dominance? When I was nursing plenty of people used to behave aggressively when they were frightened. When I worked in A&E in a London hospital I was often asked to go and deal with a certain person to give an injection or prepare them for emergency surgery because others were finding them aggressive and were on the verge of calling in security. Were they being dominant? No they were scared sh--less. Would the best way for me to deal with them have been to shout at them, push them down on the trolley, stare at them? eat my sandwiches in front of them? No it was to be calm, explain what was going to happen, reassure them, offer them support and not bully them into submission. Same with my dogs, when one of them guards his bone because he thinks I want it or worse one of the other dogs wants it would it be better for me to wade in and shout at him "give me that damn bone" push him away with my leg and take the bone whilst beating my chest then pretending to eat it or would it be better to give him space where the other dogs can't get to him and when I need to take the bone offer him something equally yummy in return. Result I get the bone safely away, he is not suspicious of me approaching him the next time as he got such a lovely treat the last time I came near his bone. He is happy, I am happy and no bites were given or received.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

El Cid said:


> Men are quite often seen as the more dominant in a marriage, but the roles can be reversed. But when its a relationship with a dog, the person is always the most dominant. Cesar Milan in the video clip is making a problem dog safe, a long way from a much loved pet. I dont know about the long term outcomes of Cesar methods, most accept posative learning. But a teacher/owner can never be thought to be submissive.


In which video clip? If you mean the one with Holly the Lab then he's doing the exact opposite of making her safe!

I'm not even sure exactly what you're asking to be honest. If you're not interested in dominance theory then what exactly is the aim of this thread? Personally I don't believe a dog can be simply dominant or submissive, it's really not that black and white. ANY hierarchy is dependent on the others involved and someone who is "dominant" in one situation may well not be in another. And honestly, how does it help to label a dog dominant or submissive anyway? All that does is stop you looking for other explanations. Take your dog running up to others and going belly up. Easy to label her as submissive and leave it at that isn't it? What about the fact she may actually be unsure and frightened of the other dog when she gets that close? What happens if that fear turns to her snapping at other dogs? Still the same feelings there, just a different reaction that I imagine would get her labelled dominant rather than submissive.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Like it says in the link, my dog is likely to be submissive due to her age and size. She is always very submissive with certain local Alsatian.
> Dare I mention the local dominant/agressive Jack Russel


From the link I posted:
"You cant really say an animal is dominant in the same way that you cant say an animal is chasing. Who is that animal chasing, and who is that animal dominant in relation to?

Likewise your bitch is not submissive. Dominance and submission are not descriptors of a personality type. It simply refers to the relationship between two individuals in relation to resources. 
If there is one bone and two dogs, the dog who gets the bone is the dominant one.

But that only describes that one instance with that one resource. Maybe one of the dogs didnt care about the bone. Maybe in another context the dog who lost out on the bone ended up gaining a different resource.

Thats the thing. Dominance is a) not a personality trait, and b) far too simplistic a concept for a complex social creature like a dog.

If you want to dumb your dogs down in to simple dominance/submissive dichotomies, knock yourself out, but you will be missing out tremendously on the rich and varied landscape that is the world of dogs.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

You know... I drive a car. Ive driven cars for a long time actually. I know how to start, stop, turn, back-up. I can even hitch a horse trailer to a truck, check the oil, change a tire, and in a pinch I can even jump a battery. 

But I tell you what, If I went on a car aficionados forum and started talking carburetors and spark plugs and alternators, it would take about half a second for it to be obvious to anyone who does understand the inner workings of a car motor, that I have no clue about any of it. 

And Ill just leave that analogy to sit right there


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> And honestly, how does it help to label a dog dominant or submissive anyway?


Not sure why there is a big deal about thee words, dominant and submissive.
Is there a better word to use?

She use her body languagee to show he is not a danger to other dogs.
She has been possessive over food occasionally, so she is no whimp.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Like it says in the link, my dog is likely to be submissive due to her age and size. She is always very submissive with certain local Alsatian.
> Dare I mention the local dominant/agressive Jack Russel


How do you know she's being submissive to the GSD?

Will you stop using dominant and aggressive in the same context, they are not the same thing they are like night and day. As you can't or won't answer the question, I would say you don't know the difference...

You've avoided the question posed a few times now.. Care to answer?

*Why if a dog learns that aggression makes people back of is it considered dominate?*
"Dogs can learn very quickly that aggression works to make people back off. If they learn this, the behaviour will worsen. So this is where the dominance comes into play"


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Not sure why there is a big deal about thee words, dominant and submissive.
> Is there a better word to use?
> 
> She use her body languagee to show he is not a danger to other dogs.
> She has been possessive over food occasionally, so she is no whimp.


The big deal is you have absolutely no understanding what so ever what these words mean in relation to dogs, yet you wanted to start a debate about it? When you don't even know what your debating about..

"She has been possessive over food occasionally, *so she is no whimp*"

Good god.................. :nonod: says it all.............


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

El Cid said:


> Dogs can learn very quickly that aggression works to make people back off. If they learn this, the behaviour will worsen. So this is where the dominance comes into play. This is not about rewarding behaviour vs being leader of the pack; but sure it is about understanding dog behaviour.


But understanding dog behaviour means that you get to the root of why the dog uses aggression. Kilo used to use a lot of noise and slobber to try to get dogs to back off following his attack. We have had most success with a BAT - type approach.now (touch wood!!) we are successfully passing dogs head on. The approach takes a lot of time and has nowhere near the showmanship angle and quick fix appeal of CM but by changing the emotional response a dog has to a trigger you can change the behaviour. Kilo isn't / wasn't dominant . he is scared.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

El Cid said:


> Not sure why there is a big deal about thee words, dominant and submissive.
> Is there a better word to use?
> 
> She use her body languagee to show he is not a danger to other dogs.
> She has been possessive over food occasionally, so she is no whimp.


Because it's not as black and white as a dog being dominant or submissive as I said in a previous post. They cannot simply be dominant or submissive and that's the end of it.

What on earth has being possessive over food got to do with being a wimp or not? That's a resource guarding issue, not a matter of dominance or submission.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Will you stop using dominant and aggressive in the same context, they are not the same thing they are like night and day. As you can't or won't answer the question, I would say you don't know the difference...


The Jack Russel Club of America dont like those words either.

Dominant or Assertive?

One of the most confusing characteristics of the Jack Russell Terrier is the assertiveness of the dog. This is mistakenly tagged as canine dominance, even by experienced dog trainers. This error can create training disasters in a Jack Russell for several reasons, including situations with dogs of lower pack status and with dogs who are very sensitive. When a trainer resorts to bullying dogs they see as dominant, but who are actually highly assertive, dogs of lower pack or dogs who are highly sensitive will not only fail to reform, the bullying can create new behavior problems.

Jack Russell Terrier JRTCA True Grit Articles: Dominant or Assertive?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> The Jack Russel Club of America dont like those words either.
> 
> Dominant or Assertive?
> 
> ...


Really? Last word on it, if you can't be bothered to hold a conversation without copy and paste, or answer questions when you start a "debate", I won't be wasting my time. You can carry on with your ignorance, and getting yourself out of the holes you dig yourself.Some new dog owners seem to have the knack of thinking they know everything, and that all those people qualified or who have had dogs normally longer than the person as been alive know nothing you are not the first nor the last ( strangely the "know it all ones" are the ones who end up with dogs with issues) there are some very knowledgeable people about on this forum who you could learn from( I do), but instead you want to act the big lad/lass. Good luck with it, it will come back and bite you on the ass.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

El Cid said:


> The Jack Russel Club of America dont like those words either.
> 
> Dominant or Assertive?
> 
> ...


I may have become confused by your strange posts on this thread, but it seems to me that you're arguing with yourself now.

Strange ramblings don't make a good basis for a debate or discussion.


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## 24Paws (Aug 9, 2014)

"Dominant" seems to fall under the same category as "fearful" or "confident" and I personally think it belongs in the same place as "high (or low) energy" and "low (or high) prey drive". 

I don't think I've ever met a dominant dog but I own a dominant breed.


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

There are folk in this world who simply haven't got the capacity to listen to reason and blindly spout nonsense.

Just sayin'


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Dominance refers to within a species, there are leaders in any group of course but who's the leader? The human running around shouting and shoving people around to get his way or the one people listen to even when he speaks calmly and quietly?

You think this is an acceptable way to treat a dog? Bear in mind he basically has him on a choke chain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEBN6G9Lrc8#t=385

The dog was rehomed soon after as far as I know. Cesar is rich yes, so are the Kardashians should we be following their example? Go read up on dog body language, watch his videos then watch somebody like Kikopup all with the sound off. You'll be amazed I know I was the first time I saw Victoria Stillwell compared to Cesar


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sorry to butt in here, but has anyone actually bothered to read the link in the OP? I have and I found it very enlightening - NOT because it's about dominance v submission, but because it explains things which, to me, this forum hasn't managed to explain _effectively_.

This forum is good at explain that dogs and wolves have trodden different paths for thousands of years and become 2 very different animals because of it... But I've found that, by and large, it stops there. Often leaving me scratching my head and muddling on in my own way.

The link doesn't. In the way I interpreted it at least, it wasn't about dominance/submissive. It says much the same as the members of this forum, but goes even further and explains things this forum fell short of.

Example:

Forum: Dogs have evolved down a different path to wolves for 10,000 years. Dogs aren't tame wolves.

Link:


> Are Dogs Just Tame Wolves?
> 
> Its well established that domestic dogs evolved from wolves. However, according to archaeological records, dogs have existed as a subspecies distinct from wolves for somewhere between 10,000 and 14,000 years. Many changes have taken place in that time, resulting in big differences between wolves and dogs:
> Dogs have a strong desire to bond with people, a reduction in problem-solving ability compared to wolves and more puppy-like attributes, like playfulness and a decreased fear of new things.
> ...


Forum: Pack Theory is outdated. CM is a bully.

Link:



> Are These Beliefs Valid?
> 
> So do dogs misbehave because of a desire to be dominant? Because experts dont agree, the answer depends on whom you ask. Truly, we cant know how dogs think of us. Its certainly possible that your dog plans to overthrow the family power structure.* However, there is scant evidence to support the idea that dogs compete with us for social statusand there is no evidence that a firm hand or forceful, assertive leadership is necessary to ensure a dogs good behavior.*


The link explains much more than what I've found on this forum. It goes on to explain the details behind the dominance myth and then debunk them, one by one. Every single question I've ever had about dominance v Positive Reinforcement v Clicker training is answered in that one link.

Now I don't know El Cid's beliefs. Maybe he does believe in pack leadership theory and dominance. I don't, but thanks to the link HE posted, I understand more about WHY I don't believe in pack mentality.

Of course, don't let me stop anyone from jumping on the bandwagon, though.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I'm not sure why your copy and pasting this to me? I'm asking YOU a question, why do you think aggression relates to dominance? Why is a dog learning that aggression make people back off a sign of "dominance"?
> 
> You are aware the stuff you are linking to is saying dominance is bull?





LinznMilly said:


> Sorry to butt in here, but has anyone actually bothered to read the link in the OP? I have and I found it very enlightening - NOT because it's about dominance v submission, but because it explains things which, to me, this forum hasn't managed to explain _effectively_.
> 
> Of course, don't let me stop anyone from jumping on the bandwagon, though.


Yep hence why I ask the OP had they read it....

Have you read the rest of the thread?

Careful of what bandwagon you jump on there you might get scelfs in your ass..


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Yep hence why I ask the OP had they read it....
> 
> Have you read the rest of the thread?
> 
> Careful of what bandwagon you jump on there you might get scelfs in your ass..


I've skim read, I must admit, and I know that OP seems to be very much of the opinion that dominance = aggression. It also appears that they believe, if not follow, the dominance theory.

Just seemed (certainly in the earlier pages) that people jumped in with both feet without actually reading the link in the OP.

I'm not on any bandwagon. 

BTW, when I said "Has anyone read", I did mean the OP, too.

No need to roll your eyes at me, Meezy. Comes across as patronising.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

OP brought this conversation over from another thread (which was nice of him not to derail the other thread).

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-and-behaviour/375450-aggressive-pit-2.html#post1063819638

I believe it was this comment that started the conversation:


El Cid said:


> This dog is master of the house, unless there is a clear need for a gaurd dog, I would not have it in the house.


Im on any bandwagon that has chocolate.

Or goats.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> I've skim read, I must admit, and I know that OP seems to be very much of the opinion that dominance = aggression. It also appears that they believe, if not follow, the dominance theory.
> 
> Just seemed (certainly in the earlier pages) that people jumped in with both feet without actually reading the link in the OP.
> 
> ...


I wasn't rolling them at you, it was at my comment you quoted, I asked the OP if they had read it..

Most the thread is asking the OP to clarify or even quantify their statement in the first comment, dragged in from another thread I might add. Which as you pointed out is totally opposed to the link they posted which I pointed out, so there was no jumping on band wagons, just people getting slightly frustrated at being asked to debate stuff or being accused of being narrow minded when all responses were copy and pasted from other sources.

I do find it annoying when people accuse others of jumping on bandwagons just because others agree with them, or think the same. We are all grown adults with minds of our own so I am certainly not one for " bandwagons" either on forums or in Real life so that to me also come across as quite patronising. Just saying  and any way Ouesi stole my dogs so my bandwagon is decommissioned and I ain't sharing hers at it has smores on it.


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

ouesi said:


> OP brought this conversation over from another thread (which was nice of him not to derail the other thread).
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-and-behaviour/375450-aggressive-pit-2.html#post1063819638
> 
> ...


What are the chances of the internet _not_ having a photo of a goat eating chocolate?  I was expecting to have to drill down, you know 'specify type of goat..'

Alas my quest was a futile one....


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> BTW, when I said "Has anyone read", I did mean the OP, too.


This is only an internet forum, with people coming and going, so people dont follow or read everything.
As LinznMilly said, some people dont like/read links, but they usually explain things better than I can, especailly to an international audience, where people might interpret things differently, well that is my excuse anyway 

I have said, I do not use dominance theory, but in fact most people, the act of giving food and caring for a dog means a certain amount of dominance.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> This is only an internet forum, with people coming and going, *so people dont follow or read everything.*
> As LinznMilly said, some people dont like/read links, but they usually explain things better than I can, especailly to an international audience, where people might interpret things differently, well that is my excuse anyway
> 
> I have said, I do not use dominance theory, but in fact most people, the act of giving food and caring for a dog means a certain amount of dominance.


That definitely explains a lot.

I guess I must be some sort of weirdo because I do tend to read the links I post in their entirety, often many times over if it happens to be a particularly heavy or useful link. 
But then, thats what one does when one wants to educate oneself. You put the time and effort in to researching, understanding and synthesizing the vast amount of information out there in to something useful.

If I take the time to participate in a thread, I also take the time to read most posts in their entirety, especially when the poster is asking for help or clarification. To me it would be highly disrespectful to do otherwise. 
I also find it really disrespectful to ask something and then not even bother to read the answers offered. I think I saw a term for that the other day - askhole.
Defined here:
Urban Dictionary: askhole


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

El Cid said:


> This is only an internet forum, with people coming and going, so people dont follow or read everything.
> As LinznMilly said, some people dont like/read links, but they usually explain things better than I can, especailly to an international audience, where people might interpret things differently, well that is my excuse anyway
> 
> I have said, I do not use dominance theory, but in fact most people, the act of giving food and caring for a dog means a certain amount of dominance.


So, you believe that if we give our dogs a lovely, meaty bone or force ourselves to go out in horrible, wet weather, so they can have their lovely hour in the woods, we're dominating them?


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

I don't think a word has excited me so much in a long time.

Askhole - sublime.

(PS, I read the link explaining what an Askhole is)


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

ouesi said:


> If I take the time to participate in a thread, I also take the time to read most posts in their entirety, especially when the poster is asking for help or clarification. To me it would be highly disrespectful to do otherwise.


I understand from your other posts how polite you are, so I am sorry if you are offened.
I perhaps have less time for internet debates, but I enjoy starting them for other posters, most of them are well mannered.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> I understand from your other posts how polite you are, so I am sorry if you are offened.
> I perhaps have less time for internet debates, but I enjoy starting them for other posters, most of them are well mannered.


Im a rude, uncultured American, whats your excuse?

Have a goat:


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

Seriously though El Cid, it is really disrespectful to ask posters to explain something to you or provide information and then not bother to take any of it in.

Despite appearances, everyones time is equally precious and if I take time out of my day to provide you with information that you requested, I would hope that you would give it at least a short perusal. Admitting that you dont even do that is in my book far ruder than some harmless banter with someone who uses men being dominant in marriage as an example


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

LOLcats said:


> I don't think a word has excited me so much in a long time.
> 
> Askhole - sublime.
> 
> (PS, I read the link explaining what an Askhole is)


Askhole. Tee hee hee

I read the link too. Brilliant.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

El Cid said:


> Cesar [Millan *sic*] has [lost] favour now, but he [still runs] a successful business *as a dog trainer*
> & TV personality; I don't need to own a dog to see that he's made it, big time.


oh, well! -- if *making money* is Ur primary measure of success as a trainer,
then i'd suggest U choose another millionaire who sells FRANCHISES to individual trainers, & teaches them
to use battery-powered "training collars" for every learning process. :mad5: Does he make money?
Hand over fist.  Do i admire & emulate him? ... H***, no.

That CM/DW was a highly-successful brand for Natl Geographic is not questioned. They promoted
Mr Millan & gave him a bully-pulpit for his fuzzy philosophy & rough-handling-as-Training methods.
He gave them drama, & lots of eyeballs watching that drama.

That YOU don't know about an individual trainer is no measure of just how well or poorly s/he trains;
my buddy MultiAnimalCrackers on UTube is a UK-trainer that i regard as among the best in the country.
U can see her successful methods, in her many videos - with not only dogs, but many other species.

I'd like to see Mr Millan train a donkey to perform a competitive-obedience "fetch" to the handler's front,
as M-A-C has - without, may i add, Mr Millan's forceful intimidation, harsh handling, & other needless
& indeed counterproductive techniques.


El Cid said:


> I am not saying dominance training is the best method...


then why are U promoting it? :blink:


El Cid said:


> ...I don't consciously use it myself. ...


Very interesting. :huh: Do U train UNconsciously often?


El Cid said:


> But I do see all around me, people that have issues with confidence & their inability to [be] dominant -
> *as a teacher needs to be.*
> ...many, but not all, of my good teachers at school were [dominant].


i went thru the usual 12-years of elementary & high-school, plus 5 years of college with a dual-major.

Among my best teachers in that 17-year marathon was my Biology instructor in 9th grade, Mr Bill Cramp -
he was also the head of the Science Dept. Far from behaving in a 'dominant' fashion, he referred to himself
as a *facilitator -* we were to *teach* ourselves, IOW learn on our own,
as individuals or in groups, but he would provide any resources we needed to find the answers to our Qs.

In our first class, he said that state-law requires all PA students to take Biology to graduate, but that
if any of us did not want to be there, he'd sign a permission slip for the student to spend EVERY CLASS
in the library, for the term; they'd still have to take & pass the tests to graduate, but they would be
out of the classroom & on their own. [No one took him up on the offer in our class, but 5 or 6 students in
other classes, did. Only 1 of that subset passed the tests - the rest had to repeat the course.]

He did not demand respect for himself, only for the learning process of our fellow students; interrupting,
ridicule, etc, were not tolerated. But we could direct the class largely with our own queries, & our own
curiosity largely determined the direction it took. The other class-sections' curricula were quite different.


El Cid said:


> Would you describe most of your teachers [as] [submissive, *sic*]?


If U're going to use a term frequently, it behooves U to at least learn to spell it properly. 

Since apparently 'dominance' / 'dominant' & 'submission' / 'submissive' are personal favorites of Urs,
U should also learn to use them IN BEHAVIOR DISCUSSIONS correctly.

A - there's no such animal as a '*dominant dog*' outside of a single relationship.
Why? Because no ONE DOG is DOMINANT TO every other dog s/he meets.

B - Dominance is an EVENT; it's not a lifestyle, a character trait, a personality factor.

C - Dominance is always in relation TO another animal, & is INTRA-species, not INTER-species.
Dominance is about *resource access*, & unless U want to compete with Ur dog for access 
to an estrous bitch, a bowl of dog-food, or a treat such as a pig's-ear, *You* are not 
'dominant to' Ur dog. Basically, U can't be - as U aren't a *dog*. 1st & most important criterion.

D - Dominance can be a long-term *relationship* of 2 same-species individuals who live together.
It doesn't exist except as an EVENT between individual dogs who don't live in the same household.
If it's a *relationship*, ONE dog consistently gets the resource in preference to the other.
IOW, if the dominant dog wants it, s/he virtually always gets it - WITHOUT any overt hostility or argument.


El Cid said:


> ...
> If I'd used the word *confidence*, instead of *dominance*, this would [be] a very different debate.
> But people are very narrow minded.


awwww, poor U!... :nonod:

Of course, a big part of that DIFFERENCE would be that 'confidence' has no specific definition within the
science of behavior, while DOMINANCE is very specifically defined - as is SUBMISSION. :lol: When U want
to discuss learning-theory, behavior-science, & nonhuman psychology, U are constrained to use the terms
only as they are defined within that discipline. :Shrug: When in Rome...

If U just want to throw some cool-sounding terms around & misuse them as U please, then do us a favor
& "discuss" it somewhere else - such as, for instance, Mr Millan's FaceBook pages or his websites, where
he himself misuses, mislabels, & tortures the terms out of all recognition, IMO & IME.

A puppy who freezes, stares, & growls at an approaching adult-dog over her or his food-bowl is NOT
"being *dominant*", s/he is warning the intruder that the food is not available, it's *owned* -
the food in that bowl is the pup's, & no one else's. If might made right, the adult-dog would simply
take the food from the pup, unceremoniously shove them aside or deliver a threat or even a bite,
& there'd be nothing to talk about; discussion would be pointless.

As it is, *dog rules* hold that possession is 99% of the law, & the pup's right to own that food, & eat it
in peace, is very rarely contested by any normal adult-dog or teen-pup. Only a very young & ignorant pup
is likely to think that they can steal that food, & an argument will ensue.


El Cid said:


> When I describe my own dog... I say *she is very submissive, but confident*.
> That was half of the title of this thread.


So what? :skep: It's half the title - but both terms are being used incorrectly.

I doubt very much that YOUR DOG displays active-submission to every dog she meets,
& moreover IF SHE DID, she would not be in any sense, "confident" around other dogs.
She might be "confident" around many or even most ppl, but if she shows submissive behavior
to all or most dogs, she seriously LACKS confidence.
.
.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

El Cid said:


> I have said, I do not use dominance theory, but in fact most people, the act of giving food and caring for a dog means a certain amount of dominance.


----------



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Im a rude, uncultured American, whats your excuse?


Are you saying that being American has caused you to be rude, or just that its a common thing amomg Americans.
I am English, but I am sure you hope that I am not offering it as a reason. As for not answering questions, being dominant is very subjective - it seems.
Some posters cant see any examples all around themselves.
What does dominance mean? Are all relationship between 2 animals equal, or is one animal in a relationship more dominant than the other? One is dominant, and one is submisive, I am sure some relationships are equal.

I am sure what ever I say is going to be pilloried, there is an English saying about relationships;- "who wears the trousers" (especially of a woman) to be the person in a relationship who is in control and who makes decisions for both people(the dominant person).


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

El Cid said:


> Some posters cant see any examples all around themselves.


Why should they? 

You're comparing apples to oranges, I feel.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Are you saying that being American has caused you to be rude, or just that its a common thing amomg Americans.
> I am English, but I am sure you hope not offering it as a reason. As for not answering questions, being dominant is very subjective - it seems.
> *Some posters cant see any examples all around themselves.*
> What does dominance mean? Are all relationship between 2 animals equal, or is one animal in a relationship more dominant than the other? One is dominant, and one is submisive, I am sure some relationships are equal.
> ...


I think people see what they are looking for. You have decided Im rude, so thats what you see. Other posters have a different context for how they see me and find me charming and amusing (no, really!)

Its the same with dogs. If you are looking for dominance that is exactly what youll see. But once you take the dominance glasses off, and start just observing without bias, youll notice that dogs have a richly complex social structure and system of communication of which dominance displays are just a very small part.

As for wearing trousers, thats an expression that was originally coined to demean men who allow their women to make decisions. Personally thats no relationship Im even remotely interested either in human form or in canine form. But to each their own....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You look for dominance you see it in everything, every little action your dog makes is it trying to take over the world. You see enough examples of this all over the internet. Why would you want a relationship with something where you're constantly in a power struggle? Unless you like proving how tough you are over an animal. A partnership is much better. 

Some relationships one person has most or all of the power yes but here's the difference they both generally choose for it to be that way. In western countries anyway


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Are you saying that being American has caused you to be rude, or just that its a common thing amomg Americans.
> I am English, but I am sure you hope not offering it as a reason. As for not answering questions, being dominant is very subjective - it seems.
> Some posters cant see any examples all around themselves.
> What does dominance mean? Are all relationship between 2 animals equal, or is one animal in a relationship more dominant than the other? One is dominant, and one is submisive, I am sure some relationships are equal.
> ...


Your insight to behaviour is ummmm interesting to say the least, so explain where all these D/s relationships take place in which animals? And how do they show these D/s behaviours?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Does dominance exist?
> 
> I'm sure it does actually, if not in the way people like CM think. But the vast majority of things I see described
> as the dog "being dominant", actually have other explanations that make far more sense.
> ...


CLICK. :thumbup:

A very good question, too; if my dog lies on my lap, s/he's seen as 'dominant'.

If my cat curls up on my lap, purring, is the CAT being dominant? Most ppl would say no.
But many, if not 'most', ppl would say that a dog on my lap is dominant behavior, even tho IMO
& IME, the dog may lie on my lap for precisely the same reasons: attn, warmth, security, social
contact, sheer pleasure, the chance of being petted or fed a treat, etc.


Meezey said:


> What makes [CM/DW] a successful trainer, *in your opinion*?
> 
> What about his training methods... *in your opinion*... works?
> 
> ...


Excellent post! :thumbsup: Rep fer U. :yesnod:


El Cid said:


> I think that *you need to stop using so many question marks*, & look in the dictionary.


Cid,
U're being a horse's butt.  That post was a very polite invitation to EXPLAIN YOUR OPINIONS,
& rather than take that gracious opportunity, U come back with a smart remark. :nono: This doesn't
do anything to advance or defend Ur views; it only makes U look like a jerk.

U haven't explained ANYthing; U've made broad, sweeping, unsupported statements that in many
cases, fly directly counter to the research that's been done on dog-behavior over the past 40-years,
& also are directly counter to the experiences of many pet-owners & trainers right on this forum.

Do U simply expect us to swallow those statements without so much as asking for evidence?
Not very likely, BTW.


El Cid said:


> Is it wrong to "have power and influence over" over a dog?


That depends - on how U achieve those ends.
.
.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

People do look for it in other species. Some people will tell you to keep birds especially parrots below your eyeline or they'll become dominant. This was the extent of "training" done on a macaw, a bird they consider the equivalent of a human 2 year old, who was stuck in a small cage with no stimulation. I wonder what its issues were . There's even recommendations to alpha roll rats and put some of your pee on them if they bite :huh:. 

Humans just seem obsessed with seeing dominance everywhere.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> You look for dominance you see it in everything, every little action your dog makes is it trying to take over the world.


This. Been there, done that and looking back it would be laughable if it hadn't been so damn unfair on the dogs. The whole concept becomes absolutely ridiculous because you end up analysing everything the dog does to try to figure out whether it's trying to take control.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> This. Been there, done that and looking back it would be laughable if it hadn't been so damn unfair on the dogs. The whole concept becomes absolutely ridiculous because you end up analysing everything the dog does to try to figure out whether it's trying to take control.


A terrified dog cowering and shaking in a crate is trying to be dominant because it has a paw raised springs to mind . But you see the lists on the internet of dominant behaviours and it's basically everything a dog does naturally. It's such a ridiculous idea


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> A terrified dog cowering and shaking in a crate is trying to be dominant because it has a paw raised springs to mind . But you see the lists on the internet of dominant behaviours and it's basically everything a dog does naturally. It's such a ridiculous idea


Lists like these:Stubborn

Headstrong and willful

Demanding

Pushy

Begging

Pushing a toy into you or pawing in order to get you to play with them

Nudging you to be petted

Sitting in high places, looking down on everything

Guarding a human from others approaching. People like to call it protecting but it's actually claimingdog owns you.

Barking or whining at humans which many owners consider "talking" (without a command to do so).

High-pitched screams in protest of something dog does not wish to do.

Jumping or putting their paws on humans (without a command to do so).

Persistence about being on a particular piece of furniture when asked to stay off (dog owns it)

Persistence about going in and out of doorways before humans

Persistence about walking in front of humans while on a lead

Persistence about getting through the doorway first

Refusing to walk on a lead (excludes untrained puppies, dogs with injuries or illnesses)

Nipping at people's heels when they are leaving (dog did not give permission to leave)

Not listening to known commands

Dislikes people touching their food

Standing proud on a human lap

Persistence about being on top, be it a lap or stepping on your foot

Persistence about where they sleep, i.e. on your pillow

Annoyance if disturbed while sleeping

Likes to sleep on top of their humans

Licking (giving kisses) in a determined and focused manner

Carrying themselves with a proud gait, head held high

Not liking to be left alone and getting overly excited upon the humans return (see Separation Anxiety in Dogs)

Really upsets me......


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The one that always confused me was going through doorways first. Why would the leader go through a narrow space you can't see all the way around first? :sosp: Surely they'd send a less valuable subordinate first. And why wouldn't you want a dog that asks for affection or for you to play with them :001_unsure:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ummm... I wonder how a dog gives permission to leave?

Do you have to bow or curtsy before them asking or will a quick paw nudge be enough


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

El Cid said:


> Can we learn anything usefull by studying a dogs behaviour? I certainly think we can.
> 
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA
> 
> ...


Oh dear God, not again ?????? Hasn't this been done to death.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, you have to bow and scrape, tug your forelock and then reverse out of the room.

It's incorrect etiquette to turn your back on Royalty you see.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Ummm... I wonder how a dog gives permission to leave?
> 
> Do you have to bow or curtsy before them asking or will a quick paw nudge be enough


Some dogs do get aggressive when their owners leave. It's fairly simple to fix though, change your routine, distract them with something yummy as you leave.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Why oh why are some people so obsessed with this 'Dominance' idea? why the belief that to train a dog or even to have a mutually rewarding relationship with one requires that you have to use bully boy tactics to show it whose the boss.
Over the years I've trained, to a reasonable standard, dogs to work alongside me on the shooting field, note I say 'Alongside me', we work as part of a team. My dogs enjoy it, they have no need to compete with me to become pack leader. For more years than I care to remember I've worked dogs on a large estate near where I live, in all that time I've spent many a wet and smelly day in the back of a landrover with up to twenty dogs and in all that time, even given the often cramped conditions, I've never seen one of those dogs trying to dominate another, it's not something that we, as the handlers, would even consider. The point I'm trying to make, perhaps badly, is that to dominate is not a requirement in successful dog training, patience, gentleness and praise, to me, is the way to do it, it may take a little longer but the results are far more rewarding. And that's the way myself and my mates from the shoot do it and believe me, you would have to go a long way to find a happier, more affable bunch of dogs, doing their job because they're happy in their work, not because they fear retribution if they don't.
Apologies for the slight rant, but this dominance stuff really winds me up. Oh, one thing for the O.P. Trust me, I probably understand canine behaviour as much as most folk and I didn't learn it from a book or a Google website.


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## Sylvia58 (Jun 25, 2014)

When I first got Jess I hired a trainer, she believed that I should use a choke chain collar, that I should go through doors first, nothing belonged to Jess not even her toys and she was only a dog, I tried her training methods but I couldn't get to grips with it, too harsh and un caring Jess is not just a dog she is part of the family, so after two sessions and a fair amount of money I decided not to carry on with her, Jess still needs more training but I will do it a better way:smile5:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

El Cid said:


> ...
> Is Your Dog Dominant? | ASPCA
> 
> ...





Meezey said:


> ...
> You are aware [that] the [article] you've linked, [says that] dominance [in dogs] is bull?


From the ASPCA's *virtual behaviorist* series, QUOTE:


> Many pet parents attribute their dogs behavior problems to "being dominant".
> Some believe that common canine habits like rushing out doors, pulling on leash, begging for food,
> mounting other dogs, urine marking & even licking people on the face are dominant behaviors.
> Aggressive behavior directed toward pet parents is often classified as a dominance problem, too.
> ...


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

The dominance theory being discussed on PetForums...so interesting & original. 

:Yawn: :Yawn:


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

springerpete said:


> Why oh why are some people so obsessed with this 'Dominance' idea?


Its new to me, I didnt realise people were so touchy about it. I presume its a USA thing, I have only seen some of Cesar Milans programs on TV.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> People do look for [dominant behavior] in other species.
> 
> Some people will tell you to keep birds, especially parrots, below your eyeline -or they'll become dominant.
> This was the extent of "training" done on a macaw, a bird [considered] the equivalent of a human 2-YO,
> ...


oh, well, i can certainly see how dabbing my urine on my pet-rat would magically reduce biting! :crazy:

Yea - that would work. [/sarcasm] What bright-bulb came up with that particular idiocy? 
Probly some *man* - it's bizarre, men are often apparently fascinated by urine.

The next time someone wants to hand me a pet-rat, i'll be sure to inquire if they've been anointing
the little darling with pee...  Good God, what next?!


Nicky10 said:


> Humans just seem obsessed with seeing dominance everywhere.


that's because HIERARCHY matters enormously, to humans.

Who salutes whom, who gets precedent in table-seating at a dinner, whose ring or foot is kissed
vs who does the kissing - it's incessant.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, well, i can certainly see how dabbing my urine on my pet-rat would magically reduce biting! :crazy:
> 
> Yea - that would work. [/sarcasm] What bright-bulb came up with that particular idiocy?
> Probly some *man* - it's bizarre, men are often apparently fascinated by urine.
> ...


Yep I've seen it so much. So many people convinced their leadership is that fragile that doing something they consider weak or submissive will cause it all crumble down around them. In which case it probably is because of them

I've no idea who came up with the rat thing but it shows up on a lot of care websites. The vet who "trained" the macaw also recommended a family with a puppy all alpha roll it several times a day, including the small children :nonod:. He was on tv though clearly he knew what he was talking about.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> that's because HIERARCHY matters enormously, to humans.


So it's understandable then, that some people find it hard work to accept animals aren't the same, and to learn to "think like a dog".


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

from my experience of hearing people describe their dominant dogs, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to use supposed dominance as an excuse for inadequate training. 

Dog does x - 2 explanations, either owner hasn't properly trained not to do x (owner to blame) or - dog is dominant (dog's fault owner doesn't have to do anything about it).

I'm not convinced my dog is out to take over the world but I'm not out to take all self determination from him either. I like to work with him on things - yes there are rules he has to stick to but at the same time I'll play my part and stick to my rules too - he's not allowed to hurt me, he has to toilet in appropriate places, not steal anyone else's food etc - I won't deliberately hurt him, I'll make sure he gets plenty of opportunity to toilet in appropriate places, I'll make sure he doesn't have to guard his food as nobody will threaten him for it. I like when he comes and asks for a game or a cuddle (even when he wakes me up at 3am cos his toy elephant had a nightmare and needs cuddled to sleep between us) and I want him to feel safe to ask me.

I don't see what the big deal is about the way dogs act towards others - it's a very fluid structure and usually depends on several factors. It fascinates me to see the way Angus reacts differently with his friends depending on where they are and what is happening - especially last weekend when he had an interaction with a young bitch he knows. They last met on an exercise field at an agility competition where she was out playing with the other 3 dogs she lives with and Angus was hanging about on the fringes, wanting to join in but not quite sure of himself. A couple of weeks later and a different competition and they met beside one of the rings - the bitch on her own (with owner) obviously recognised Angus and decided she wanted his attention - did everything she could think of and ended up upside down at his feet while he told her to get out of the way because he was watching agility. Both confident outgoing dogs, both polite about interacting with each other, both ready to be submissive when they were slightly out of their comfort zone. Behaviour of both completely shaped by everything happening around them - if you'd only seen one interaction you might have labelled one or the other dominant or submissive but they are complex sentient beings who are perfectly capable of being both to varying degrees depending on circumstance.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

speug said:


> from my experience of hearing people describe their dominant dogs, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to use supposed dominance as an excuse for inadequate training.
> 
> Dog does x - 2 explanations, either owner hasn't properly trained not to do x (owner to blame) or - dog is dominant (dog's fault owner doesn't have to do anything about it).


This is what I mean by it being the lazy "go to" option for so many. It's easier and less work to blame the dog, label it dominant, than to accept that your (general, not you specifically) training is inadequate and you need to put more work in. It's the dog at fault, not you as the owner. Dominance also tends towards quick fixes in many respects which is what people want 

And sometimes I think people just like the power kick they get from "dominating" their dog :nonod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> ...
> So many people [are] convinced their leadership is [so] fragile, that doing something they consider weak
> or submissive will cause it all crumble... around them. In which case, it's probly because of [their behavior].


Most likely true - & isn't it a bl**dy shame they blame the poor dog?!


Nicky10 said:


> I've no idea who came up [dabbing one's urine on rats], but it shows up on a lot of rat-care websites.


all i can say is, some ppl will believe ANYthing! - Ye gods. 


Nicky10 said:


> The vet who "trained" the macaw also recommended [to] a family with a puppy [that they] all
> Alpha-roll [the pup] several times daily, including the small children :nonod:. He was on TV, though -
> clearly, he knew what he was talking about.



Oh, yeah - *ALL *those TV-presenters know what they're talking about!

Especially the ones on the hour-long infomercials at stoopid'o'clock, banging on about the wonders of wt-loss,
the instant-training collar, the guaranteed drought-proof lawn, the "perfect skin" treatment, hair restorers,
& other miracles of modern science. [/sarcasm]


MerlinsMum said:


> ... it's understandable then, that some people find it hard work to accept animals aren't the same
> [as humans, DON'T incessantly fret over who's above the salt & who below], & [find it difficult] to learn
> to "think like a dog".


Yup. :thumbup:

Got it in one - since we see virtually every interaction in terms of STATUS, we see it in all other species,
too.

Don't get me wrong - in *some* nonhumans, status *does* matter enormously.
However, HOW U GET IT varies enormously, too, & it's more often the *exception* than the rule
that status is gotten by sheer physical power & violence.

Baboons have a strict social ranking, but having an infant in one's arms instantly conveys some status
AND is an instant truce - other males won't attack a male holding a baby, so 'kidnappings' occur during fights.

Horses have strong hierarchical ranking, & one's DAM is the prime determinant, but that's not
a domestic-dog model - nor a wolf-model, as all the pups are from the same dam; in wolves, AGE is
the primary factor: parents are in charge of everyone's safety, & then offspring in order of age -
3-YO, 2-YO, & pups of the year.
Since DOGS disperse, they don't rank by litter-sequence, either; they're *not wolves*.

Dogs spend a massive amount of time *deferring to others* & a minimal amount of time in their
lives, *in conflict -* they don't like fights, they avoid them, they CHOOSE to use
their large lexicon of body-language, posture, & facial signals to navigate contentious issues. That's what dogs do:
negotiate. *Dogs are better diplomats than humans are, by & large.
They vastly prefer to skip conflict, & try to gracefully defer if it's at all possible. The bully, jerk,
or lover of aggro is the odd dog out, not a common type. They exist - but they're few & far between.*

Over 99% of all dogs don't give a good dam* who's in charge, so long as they are cared for, fed, & safe. 
.
.


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## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

Gotta say I've owned rats for nearly 10 years now and have never once heard the urine dabbing thing  Good thing pet rats rarely bite or we'd have to keep a supply


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

speug said:


> [IME] ... it seems... a lot of people... use supposed 'dominance' as an excuse for inadequate training.
> 
> Dog does x; [there are] 2 explanations, either owner hasn't properly trained not to do x (owner to blame)
> or - dog is dominant (dog's fault --- owner doesn't have to do anything about it).
> ...


DEFINITELY agree - rep for U! :thumbup: Very well explained, too. :yesnod:


Sarah1983 said:


> [That's] what I mean [when I say it's] the lazy "go-to" option for so many.
> 
> It's easier & less work to blame the dog, label [her or him] dominant, [vs] accept that your (general you,
> not "you" specifically) - your training is inadequate, & you need to put more work in. It's the dog at fault,
> ...


Sadly, IME of over-30-years, both the "fast results" REPUTATION - often undeserved! - And that last *nasty* bit,
enjoying the sense of power-over, are the 2 most common grounds used to justify "dominate the dog" methods,
or "label the dog dominant" practices - one uses most-often physical aversives to punish the supposed
dominant behavior; the other simply labels the dog as dominant & therefore defective, or rebellious.

It's a real sin & a shame, IMO. :nonod:


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

Reading this thread made me think about this .... some of you will know this one already

[youtube_browser]/tBHawVoMFrk[/youtube_browser]


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