# The Poo Progress with the lovely Elsworth



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I thought things were improving after a week of poo in the tray but last night and today we have had poo on the floor nowhere near the trays.

I am beginning to wonder if it is a food thing because up until the other day all cats were on Ropocat chicken but then I started adding a bit of kangaroo to the Ropocat. 

When on ropocat his poo is small round pieces whereas on kangaroo they are bigger although still properly formed. Once all the food has gone I will just buy ropocat for all three as separating them is a faff and I am low on funds this month plus low on space to buy more cat food.

As an aside I have been wondering about giving him more freedom. He escaped for god knows how long the other day but didn't go far so maybe he is more sensible than I give him credit for. Obviously the girls go out so the area is fairly safe and he won't go to strangers so isn't likely to get stolen. I am concerned that at the moment he isn't getting enough stimulation, I am so tired all the time and when the baby arrives I won't have time to play with him. It may help his relationship with the girls because he won't be chasing them all the time for his entertainment. It wasn't something I had originally wanted to do as I do prefer him being indoors so he is safe but I need to do what is best for him and the rest of us. 

I have already decided I don't want him to go out at night and for a while only for short periods. 

When I got him I thought that the girls would come round and they would become friends so he wouldnt be lonely when we had the baby but they are still growling and hissing at him which can't be nice for any of them


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If he used the tray all the time when he was on the Ropocat I'd stick to that. Good news that he had a week of using the tray!

When you say you added Kangaroo, do you mean Vet Concept Kangaroo? If so that is the stuff containing a prebiotic like inulin, which you found before gave him a loose stool if I recall? I wouldn't give him any VC at all in that case.

Sorry to hear he escaped and disappeared ! :eek6: Did he get out of the enclosure? I think now he has got out and evidently enjoyed himself he may not be satisfied to stay in his enclosure. He will certainly become more independent if he is allowed out, cats always do, they find things to entertain themselves. As you say this may work out better for you when you are busy with a new baby. 

Incidentally, if Elsworth likes the rabbit flavour Ropocat I have 9 x 200 gram tins which my cat doesn't like and am happy to give them to you.  I also have some of the turkey flavour Macs Sensitive, 400 gram tins if E likes that?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> If he used the tray all the time when he was on the Ropocat I'd stick to that. Good news that he had a week of using the tray!
> 
> When you say you added Kangaroo, do you mean Vet Concept Kangaroo? If so that is the stuff containing a prebiotic like inulin, which you found before gave him a loose stool if I recall? I wouldn't give him any VC at all in that case.
> 
> ...


He got out of the flap, there is a glitch in it somehow in that if it's bashed it seems to pick up his chip from the other side. I noticed it not long ago when he was having a set to with next doors cat but put it down to a one off. I suspect that there was a cat again yesterday, they were both bashing, the flap unlocked so he decided to go for a walk. I hadn't shut the enclosure as he hadn't been out but the others were. It was only by chance I looked out the window to see him in the garden! He came straight to me chatting away so he wasn't bothered about being outside on his own. I have no idea if he left the garden or not as I'm not sure how long he was out there but I suspect it was a couple of hours as I had heard some commotion but thought it was neighbours with their bins as it was recycling day the next day. Naughty cat!

I feel bad letting him outside because I am having a baby but I do worry that being inside the same 4 walls is not doing him any good when I have no energy to play with him. Work isn't helping with long hours so all I want to do is flop. He only plays fetch with pipe cleaners which are banned because he eats them so it's not like I can play with him laying down. Baby or no baby he is still very much loved and I can't imagine not having him around which is why I will worry about him if he goes out but the more I think about it the more I think it's for the best.

It's such a shame he doesn't get on with the girls and that we couldn't have given him a playmate. I love the breed and will definitely have them again but only in pairs especially if they will be indoor.

He does like the rabbit flavour and he likes turkey, let me know how much you want or how much postage is and I will gladly take them  Thanks very much!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I honestly feel like crying. He has gone back to pooing on the floor nowhere near the trays at all now. He has had nothing but ropocat but his poos are suddenly way bigger and softer than they were and they smell way worse. 

I don't understand how we can have success with the Ropocat then failure with the same food? 

I am trying to come up with options to allow him into the enclosure 24/7 without having to shut the others out. Our front door is panelled so whilst we may try to put a flap in it may not work but by then it's too late. We could look for a new door but hubs is fed up of throwing money at this when nothing we do works which is annoying but understandable as I do feel similar. For a while we had no money to spend on us as we were buying new trays, new litter, new toys, enclosures, behaviourists, food. It sounds horrible but for ages I actually bought some stuff for me this month. Then we have the baby to pay for with a reduced wage, there will be no spare money for us or the cats unless one of them needs to see the vet. We will always keep a backup incase they need something that isn't worth claiming on the insurance. 

I feel like I am clutching at straws in order for me to be able to keep him as a house cat but maybe the best thing would be for us to implement a daytime rule where all cats are allowed out but at night the enclosure is shut and that's all they have access to. 

He is due at the vets next month for his booster so I will ask them for an opinion again. 

I just can't have him pooing on the floor all the time. How am I going to have the energy to remove it and clean the area properly after a sleepless night with a baby? 

I've just had enough and the thought of rehoming him crosses my mind daily but when I think about having to say goodbye to him I just can't do it. 

I want him to stay with us, grow up with our baby and be part of the family I really do! 

When hubs gets home tonight we will have a think about what to do but it's probably going to end up with him being allowed out. I suppose if we start from the beginning then it is no different to us letting the girls out and he didn't get lost or run away when he escaped.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

I haven't got anything helpful to say other than I'm sorry you are going through this. I wish I could offer some advice but I constantly go through it with Lilly and her weeing outside the box.

One tactic that "seems" to be working with her is that I went through a sort of mini crating process - using her room rather than her crate. She now has free roam of the house but if she does wee outside the box I immediately put her back in her room and lock her in there for a day and then allow her back out. The thing with Lilly is that often I can tell when she is winding herself up about needing a wee and I can pick her up and put her in the tray and then reward her when she uses it. This has worked well and she has only had one "accident" recently. 

I know you crated Elsworth but have you been putting him back in his crate when he has failed to use the litter tray?

Regarding poo size and smell - are you using a probiotic? Bigger, softer, smellier poos sounds like something is going on and that may be the reason for his recent behaviour change if he had been doing OK prior to this. Has the vet done faecal tests?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I've had another look at the poo and it's not actually any different to normal ropocat poo, must be because it's fresh.

Further to my hormonal rant I have taken the decision to let him out. He's in the garden running around playing which is lovely to see. He hasn't even chased Elise so he must be too busy. 

As much as I wanted an indoor cat I do believe I am doing the right thing for us all in other ways, not just the pooing. 

Given the right environment and a play mate he would probably be fine. 

Thanks for all the support, I just hope we start making progress with the pooing and the chasing of his sisters and general restlessness.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oggers, as you have weighed up the risks of letting him out, and decided to do so, I'm pleased, as I feel it might help reduce or eliminate the house soiling, as well as the restlessness and chasing behaviour. 

Once the light evenings are here my plan is to allow my girls out during daylight hours but after dark they will only have access to their enclosure. I hope it will work. 

I hope things work out with Elsworth. Thinking of you.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Oggers, as you have weighed up the risks of letting him out, and decided to do so, I'm pleased, as I feel it might help reduce or eliminate the house soiling, as well as the restlessness and chasing behaviour.
> 
> Once the light evenings are here my plan is to allow my girls out during daylight hours but after dark they will only have access to their enclosure. I hope it will work.
> 
> I hope things work out with Elsworth. Thinking of you.


It has been something playing on my mind for a while and it's taken a while to finally get to the stage of accepting he might be better off.

I know he won't get stolen as he won't go to strangers, he is not going to run away or he would have done it by now. There is always the possibility of him getting run over although around here the risk is extremely low. Our only worry is how he will be when he meets another cat.

I am not adverse to keeping indoor cats in the future but I can learn from this experience and get a pair to keep each other entertained plus I won't have the worry over kids accidentally letting them out as they will be all grown up when the time comes to consider getting more cats.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry to hear about Elsworth's relapse  but so glad you're (fingers crossed) found a solution letting him have more access outdoors

I don't think rehoming would have been very easy as, without solving the problem, it's quite a lot for someone else to take on - delighted its not come to that 

I think that generally people either have cats that all go out or cats that all stay in (or get out into an enclosure / walked etc) - I do think being able to see the girls having more freedom may possibly be at the route of things and when he gets frustrated, this is his way of showing how upset he is (maybe a bit similar to Mia, but hers comes out in aggression)


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

Sorry to hear that, hopefully expanding his world will make him feel happier.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

He's been out again today loving the space to race around after flying birds. Thankfully he hasn't tried to go over the fence yet but if he does I will wait a minute before calling him back with treats. 

He is now scanned to go out of the flap whenever he wants so we just have to be careful for a bit to make sure the enclosure is closed if we are out or its dark. Taking the whole thing very slowly and will increase his outdoor time gradually.

He actually did a wee outside today which I thought was good, need to make a nice soiled area though to stop hi
m going on the grass. 

I am a bit unsure about them all using the enclosure at night as they are not exactly great with sharing personal space but we shall cross that bridge when we come to it. Need to double check enclosure is secure before allowing unattended access and I want to put up some shelves so they have more space to get away from one another.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just come to bed to find he has pooed in the bedroom  
Really hope giving him freedom will work otherwise I am stumped.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I do hope he will get used to his outdoor time and end the cycle of pooing indoors. I can understand your frustration - and your husband's too (mine would be exactly the same)


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> I do hope he will get used to his outdoor time and end the cycle of pooing indoors. I can understand your frustration - and your husband's too (mine would be exactly the same)


He has been surprisingly patient, I think it is me that is reaching breaking point. The longer this goes on the more it gets to me and I can't live with this for another 10+ years but I don't know what to do to fix it.

Poo on the floor again today but I won't let him out when we are not there to keep an eye on him for a bit yet until I am comfortable he is ok with the area.

We may have another spanner in the works with regards to making all 3 cats stay in with only the enclosure at night. I forgot that Elise has a habit of weeing in the house if she can't go outside which is why they go out at night! This morning it looked like she was going to wee on the floor so I had to rush to let her out. It seems to be protest weeing if there is such a thing because she has been happily using the tray for months now even since she has been allowed outside since the move. It seems she will happily stay in all night and use the tray for a 24 hour period if that is her choice. The minute you take that choice away from her she starts to wee in the house.

Separating them at night isn't a huge drama and something easily manageable and maybe it wont matter Elsworth not having outside access at night if he can go out completely during the day.

Elsa is the only trouble free cat out of the 3 of them, she only wees in the house if she has cystitis, never poos in the house, won't put up too much of a fuss about staying in at night and is generally just an easy going cat.

I almost feel like I am fighting an eternal battle..I feel selfish for putting him in a situation where he feels he has to poo on the floor but I'm putting my own needs first before his by keeping him because I dont want to give him up and subjecting him to this environment. I'm being harsh on the girls by allowing them to be chased in their own home.

Then I think about rehoming him and then I'm also being selfish by giving him up because he doesn't fit in with my ideals.


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

It sounds as though you have soiling issues with all 3 to varying degrees. With the girls did these exist before you got your boy or did they appear after he arrived? Have you had a behaviourist visit? Sounds really stressful for you all.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Code said:


> It sounds as though you have soiling issues with all 3 to varying degrees. With the girls did these exist before you got your boy or did they appear after he arrived? Have you had a behaviourist visit? Sounds really stressful for you all.


Elise has had issues since the very beginning even when her and Elsa were friends and it seemed to stem from her starting to go out but then being kept in for any period of time. Once we got the flap fitted we had no issues until we tried to keep them in at night and then it restarted. Same with when we cat proofed the garden as she was trapped. The last 2 issues were one pre Elsworth when we were trying to keep them in at night and then post Elsworth after the move until we let her out again. After the move she was extremely unsettled and it took her a long time to get back to normal but once she settled she was back to her old self, no pawing at windows, frequent trips in and out where she would go out, come in then ask to go out of the window. Now she potters around happily using the flap with no frantic searching for her old territory. She is so much happier!

Elsa had cystitis before Elsworth arrived, completely out of the blue. Started around 10pm and by 6am she was back to normal. She had a flare up a month or so after the move, again out the blue and went as quickly as it came.

Elsworth started his problems last July which coincided with me having a friend to stay.

Had a behaviourist in but she suggested going from 3-4 trays which we did plus having a tray in every room but that made no difference. She couldn't tell me why Elsworth was pooing on the floor but she said I needed to increase resources which I did, fed them in different places, added another scratching post, more trays but they all share still. Nobody has a claim on any tray or food bowl, they just use whatever is most convenient regardless of who has either just used the tray or eaten out of the bowl.


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> Elise has had issues since the very beginning even when her and Elsa were friends and it seemed to stem from her starting to go out but then being kept in for any period of time. Once we got the flap fitted we had no issues until we tried to keep them in at night and then it restarted. Same with when we cat proofed the garden as she was trapped. The last 2 issues were one pre Elsworth when we were trying to keep them in at night and then post Elsworth after the move until we let her out again. After the move she was extremely unsettled and it took her a long time to get back to normal but once she settled she was back to her old self, no pawing at windows, frequent trips in and out where she would go out, come in then ask to go out of the window. Now she potters around happily using the flap with no frantic searching for her old territory. She is so much happier!
> 
> Elsa had cystitis before Elsworth arrived, completely out of the blue. Started around 10pm and by 6am she was back to normal. She had a flare up a month or so after the move, again out the blue and went as quickly as it came.
> 
> ...


You've tried an awful lot to solve this. It does sound territorial, the chasing, the soiling with both Elsworth and Elise if her territory is restricted. Have you tried keeping him completely apart from the girls, having separate territories in the house and a timeshare in the garden? Is that possible? And then seeing how the toiletting responds? Sorry if you've tried all this before.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Code said:


> You've tried an awful lot to solve this. It does sound territorial, the chasing, the soiling with both Elsworth and Elise if her territory is restricted. Have you tried keeping him completely apart from the girls, having separate territories in the house and a timeshare in the garden? Is that possible? And then seeing how the toiletting responds? Sorry if you've tried all this before.


Not properly no, I have been keeping them apart when I've not been in and at night so he can eat his separate food but it didn't stop anything. The week he was using the tray they weren't separated at all.

Keeping them apart long term just isn't doable with kids, it's difficult ebough sorting them out without trying to sort one or two kids out as well. Plus when they get older it isn't fair to expect them to not open doors or let certain cats into certain areas.

I'm increasing his outdoor time anyway although at the moment he doesn't seem too fussed. He has the vets in April so going to ask for a referral to a behaviourist and then ring Pet Plan to see if they will cover the cost. If they will then I will look at getting Vicky Halls out but if not we either need to find someone much cheaper or not get one at all. It won't be long until I stop work and only get statutory maternity so we need to start really thinking about saving our money so that we can definitely afford to live.

I am just conscious that I am running out of time and that my patience will be really tested and I will find myself unable to cope. I will do everything I can to not have to give Elsworth up and I don't want to feel like I have reached breaking point.

I have no idea how they will all cope with a baby in the house with the crying etc. It does concern me that it may just make things 100 times worse especially if I feel stressed and they pick up on it.

I feel like this has all come to a head because I am having a baby but if he wasn't pooing in the house I wouldn't be even thinking about him needing a new home as ever thing else is completely manageable.

I am just thinking about a few years down the line when the baby is crawling and I haven't spotted the poo and it gets to it before I do. Then when the kids are
older and having friends round and there is poo that I haven't seen which is likely because there is no pattern to it. If they tell their parents we will end up being the house that everyone is banned from as its really not hygienic.

I really need to fix this and I hope we can find the answer very soon. If I can just stay positive I can deal with a newborn and a poo so if I can fix this before the baby gets to crawling age we will have a win win situation. It still leaves me about a year from now.

It's going to be really hard but if I can come on here to try and let off some steam I may be ok and will be able to deal with it but I really have no idea.


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> Not properly no, I have been keeping them apart when I've not been in and at night so he can eat his separate food but it didn't stop anything. The week he was using the tray they weren't separated at all.
> 
> Keeping them apart long term just isn't doable with kids, it's difficult ebough sorting them out without trying to sort one or two kids out as well. Plus when they get older it isn't fair to expect them to not open doors or let certain cats into certain areas.
> 
> ...


I really feel for you. Of course you don't want to live in a house of poo. And it will be harder and more stressful with the baby. I guess my feeling is if you separate properly for a while and it all stops it might prove or not that it's a multi cat household issue rather than something else. If it's the former and everything gets better it might make it easier to think about the re homing as you'll have evidence they're less stressed away from each other.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Code said:


> I really feel for you. Of course you don't want to live in a house of poo. And it will be harder and more stressful with the baby. I guess my feeling is if you separate properly for a while and it all stops it might prove or not that it's a multi cat household issue rather than something else. If it's the former and everything gets better it might make it easier to think about the re homing as you'll have evidence they're less stressed away from each other.


That's not a bad idea, I can keep Elsworth downstairs with access to the enclosure 24/7 plus the proper outside during the day and keep the other 2 upstairs and let them on and out through the spare bedroom window. I could try that for a month and see him we get on which will nearly coincide with the vets and getting a behaviourist...


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> That's not a bad idea, I can keep Elsworth downstairs with access to the enclosure 24/7 plus the proper outside during the day and keep the other 2 upstairs and let them on and out through the spare bedroom window. I could try that for a month and see him we get on which will nearly coincide with the vets and getting a behaviourist...


I think it's worth a try, I really do -at least as a short term measure. If the poo issues don't improve you will need to then go through a reintroduction process I guess, which is a negative. But sounds as though you're at the end of your tether now. Can you get a telephone appointment with the behaviourist you used before to see if this is a reasonable next step?


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Code said:


> I think it's worth a try, I really do -at least as a short term measure. If the poo issues don't improve you will need to then go through a reintroduction process I guess, which is a negative. But sounds as though you're at the end of your tether now. Can you get a telephone appointment with the behaviourist you used before to see if this is a reasonable next step?


Keeping them apart will be the next step if increasing his outside time doesn't work. At the moment he isn't allowed out unless one of us can watch him as we need to let him go over the fence then get him back. He hasn't shown much interest in climbing the fence, he just tears around the garden or the park at the front.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds like he is having a great time Oggers!:thumbup1: 

Btw did you want me to send you the cans of Ropocat Rabbit? Don't worry if you changed your mind, I can take it to the Shelter, no problem.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Sounds like he is having a great time Oggers!:thumbup1:
> 
> Btw did you want me to send you the cans of Ropocat Rabbit? Don't worry if you changed your mind, I can take it to the Shelter, no problem.


He's loving it! He escaped out the front door earlier so I had to abandon my plans for a nap to supervise. Unfortunately I didn't have much luck getting him back in after I had had enough, every time I went near him he shot off in the opposite direction so I ended up calling for back up so I could get him in! As much as I wanted an indoor cat having the space to run around and explore will be good for him.

Elise has been very good the last 2 days and not tried to wee in the house although she did ask to go out really early. I think if she hadn't been allowed out she may have tried to go. Elsa is proving to be a little so and so refusing to come in when called 

The Ropocat would be great thanks, drop me a pm with details and I will give you my address.

Interestingly today we have a poo in the tray, he had some Smilla yesterday by accident but nothing else apart from the outdoor time has changed. He was even being stroked by the in laws yesterday, normally he refuses to set foot in the room or he spends his time hissing at them.

Never a dull moment in our house with these 3!


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

Ah that's good- sounds v promising!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Code said:


> Ah that's good- sounds v promising!


Or not...we had poo on the floor overnight...

He has access to his enclosure 24/7 now but never uses it unless we are up really. At night he always sleeps in the bed and if one of us gets up after the other Elsworth gets up with the first then goes back to bed until the second gets up.

Going to let him out in the garden today, am a bit wary of him going over the fence and not coming back though. Yesterday in the park he just kept walking further away from the house, I don't know if he would stop and come back or just keep going and going until he got lost!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't see any reason for him to get lost, cats are excellent at finding their way home within their territory. 

The exceptions tend to be un-neutered males who are let out to roam. Their drive to mate with females is so strong it may take precedence over all else. If they have to go further afield than their normal territory to find a mate that may be when some get lost and can't find their way back home. 

But that doesn't apply in Elsworth's case as he is neutered. 

If you have trained him well, to come when you call him, then call him back after half an hour and reward him with treats. So he will learn it's worth coming back. Eventually he will come back when called without needing a reward every time.

Personally I would not give him 24 hour access to outdoors, at least at the moment, even if some of it is access to the pen. He may come to expect to be allowed to come and go from the house as he pleases and that is not always a good thing. As you say he doesn't seem interested in using the pen until you get up anyway. 

What you could do is give him plenty of places to sit and snooze in the garden, as it might encourage him to stay close to home. e.g. a cat summer house or better still an outdoor cat tree to snooze on. In the summer I've always put up a child's tent in the garden for my cats, with some cushions and cotton blankets inside, to use in the daytime. They love it, and it keeps them close to home.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I don't see any reason for him to get lost, cats are excellent at finding their way home within their territory.
> 
> The exceptions tend to be un-neutered males who are let out to roam. Their drive to mate with females is so strong it may take precedence over all else. If they have to go further afield than their normal territory to find a mate that may be when some get lost and can't find their way back home.
> 
> ...


I do need to look into making the garden more cat and human friendly. Come July I will have a month of spare time on my hands so it will be nice to sit out and enjoy the weather (hopefully) That should encourage Elsworth not to stray too far if he is anything like the girls.

I think he will be staying downstairs for a bit to spare my carpets.


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> Or not...we had poo on the floor overnight...
> 
> He has access to his enclosure 24/7 now but never uses it unless we are up really. At night he always sleeps in the bed and if one of us gets up after the other Elsworth gets up with the first then goes back to bed until the second gets up.
> 
> Going to let him out in the garden today, am a bit wary of him going over the fence and not coming back though. Yesterday in the park he just kept walking further away from the house, I don't know if he would stop and come back or just keep going and going until he got lost!


Just a thought but have you ever seen him do the poos? I had quite a few random poos on the floor with my boys after they had the runs. When I watched them I found they were a little firmer than usual and clinging on when they left the tray, then falling out when they walked. As I say just a thought, might not be applicable here at all.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Code said:


> Just a thought but have you ever seen him do the poos? I had quite a few random poos on the floor with my boys after they had the runs. When I watched them I found they were a little firmer than usual and clinging on when they left the tray, then falling out when they walked. As I say just a thought, might not be applicable here at all.


No I haven't, I have only caught him once after he had just finished. This is not poo that has come loose, this is a definite poo on the floor. It's always a proper pile in one area although on occasion there has been a random piece out of the tray which has been a cling on.

They are always strategically placed, down the side of something, in a corner, on the bed or directly next to the tray.

He never poos near food, in the middle of rooms or anywhere really open.

He has pooed recently in both the covered tray and the uncovered tray but then gone back to the floor. No correlation between scooping either.


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## Code (Sep 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> No I haven't, I have only caught him once after he had just finished. This is not poo that has come loose, this is a definite poo on the floor. It's always a proper pile in one area although on occasion there has been a random piece out of the tray which has been a cling on.
> 
> They are always strategically placed, down the side of something, in a corner, on the bed or directly next to the tray.
> 
> ...


That's a shame, I was hoping they were clingers. Sounds like he's having a lovely time in the garden though, I hope it all sorts itself out soon.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

What I am hoping is once he sees himself more as an outdoor cat he will then start to toilet outdoors instead of indoors. At least he may decide (as my own outdoor cats have done) never to poo indoors, just to have the occasional wee if they need to use the tray over night. As E has always been fine using the tray for wees there should be no problem. 

Whilst it may not be the solution you'd originally hoped for, if it is a solution that works, then that will be a great outcome! . But you WILL need to give it time to evolve, it won't happen overnight. Luckily there is the whole summer ahead when he is more likely to want to be outdoors anyway, so he will make the mental transition from being an indoor cat to an outdoor cat more quickly. 

I'd make the garden more cat friendly before the warm weather arrives. If you leave it til July he may already have found places to disappear to in the daytime. I had that problem with my male BSH ped 20 yrs ago. As soon as the warmer weather arrived he wanted to be outdoors all day long, refused to stay indoors. 

The first summer I let him out (aged 1) he'd disappear the whole day, and not come back when I called him until he got hungry. I hated not knowing where he was all day. So that's when I came up with the idea of making the garden a cat's haven, e.g. with the tent, and the outdoor cat trees. On cooler days I'd site the tent and the cat trees in the sun, so he could bask. On hot days I'd put them in the shade. It worked a treat, he loved them, and he never again disappeared off all day.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> What I am hoping is once he sees himself more as an outdoor cat he will then start to toilet outdoors instead of indoors. At least he may decide (as my own outdoor cats have done) never to poo indoors, just to have the occasional wee if they need to use the tray over night. As E has always been fine using the tray for wees there should be no problem.
> 
> Whilst it may not be the solution you'd originally hoped for, if it is a solution that works, then that will be a great outcome! . But you WILL need to give it time to evolve, it won't happen overnight. Luckily there is the whole summer ahead when he is more likely to want to be outdoors anyway, so he will make the mental transition from being an indoor cat to an outdoor cat more quickly.
> 
> ...


At the moment he has 2 sheds to sunbathe on, a cat tree, a tunnel and a pop up cat tent.

He met next doors cat today and went after it to chase. He only stopped because he fell off the fence! I just hope he doesn't chase the wrong cat or keep chasing until they both end up miles away!

He enjoyed the outside time though, will do some more tomorrow. He knows to come home if he's not sure, he had a run in with next doors water sprinkler so instantly jumped back over the fence to safety 

I don't remember being this anxious with the girls, not sure if I felt I could trust them more or if i'm just way more over protective with him.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> *They are always strategically placed*, down the side of something, in a corner, on the bed or directly next to the tray.
> 
> .


sorry, I know this is all upsetting for you, but I can't help but laugh at this phrase.:lol:
Just to give you a titter too.....Mitzy jumped up on the sofa last night with a well sized cling on embedded in her pantaloons. Normally i just grab hold and pull them off but this was well wrapped up in her fluff so I ran to grab a piece of kitchen towel to improve my grip.:arf:
When i got hold of her again the poop had dislodged and i am damned if i can find it anywhere!
So that is a ticking time bomb for a visitor to step or sit on.:scared:


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> sorry, I know this is all upsetting for you, but I can't help but laugh at this phrase.:lol:
> Just to give you a titter too.....Mitzy jumped up on the sofa last night with a well sized cling on embedded in her pantaloons. Normally i just grab hold and pull them off but this was well wrapped up in her fluff so I ran to grab a piece of kitchen towel to improve my grip.:arf:
> When i got hold of her again the poop had dislodged and i am damned if i can find it anywhere!
> So that is a ticking time bomb for a visitor to step or sit on.:scared:


Cats hey 

Last night we had a poo in the tray and the night before.

Night before last he was separated from the others until 2am, last night he wasn't separated at all! Likewise he hasnt had proper outdoor time for the past 2 days just the enclosure.

He's so confusing!!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Paddypaws, if my usual experience is the same as yours, you can hunt everywhere unsuccessfully and much later you will find it has rolled under some furniture and has been lurking there for *ages.*

It is possible that Elsworth's behaviour has nothing to do with the presence of other cats, separation from them or outdoor time, so finding no connection with any of these things is bound to be confusing.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

QOTN said:


> Paddypaws, if my usual experience is the same as yours, you can hunt everywhere unsuccessfully and much later you will find it has rolled under some furniture and has been lurking there for *ages.*
> 
> It is possible that Elsworth's behaviour has nothing to do with the presence of other cats, separation from them or outdoor time, so finding no connection with any of these things is bound to be confusing.


If there is no connection to anything then what could it be? How can I fix it if there is no cause?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I still think it is possible Elsworth is just confused about litter trays. He still wees in them so his original training as a kitten is not completely forgotten but his first mistake may have been because 'his' room was not the same as usual when he needed a poo so he went elsewhere.

As I said before he is a Siamese boy and they are not always the brightest sparks. 

Even if he is bright, his reasoning may be faulty. I had a dear girl many years ago who was a deep thinker. We used to say she could always be relied upon to ponder 2+2 and always make it come to 3 or 5. 

Fortunately she had no problems with the litter tray but, if she had become confused, she may well have tried similar strategies to those Elsworth employs. After all, he has seen his cat companions occasionally use other places. 

You managed to almost retrain him with the crate but I think you relaxed the regime too soon. If you had continued to closely supervise him whenever he was out of the crate and never allowed him to make a mistake, he may have got the message. (I am sure it is not too late to change him although the longer a habit persists the harder it is to break.)


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I doubt the behaviour is completely random, there is probably a trigger, but it may be a trigger you haven't yet identified. This is why you have not seen an apparent pattern to his behaviour yet.

It may be you will never manage to identify the cause, cats are not always easy to read, though you have certainly tried your best. 

I do not believe him being shut indoors is necessarily the cause of the soiling. It may be, it may not. But by giving him the opportunity to become an outdoor cat you are opening up his life to new experiences, new sights, sounds and scents, and inevitably this will help him become more independent and mature. Also, as I have said, I hope it will lead to him choosing to poo outdoors and not indoors, as this so often what happens when cats are allowed outdoors.

One could say that the soiling indoors might stop as a _beneficial side effect of him being allowed to go outdoors_. But the two facts of him going outdoors and him soiling indoors may NOT be directly linked at all, in a straightforward cause and effect manner.

Using a solution in this way to solve a problem is known as "Lateral Thinking" and can often be highly effective with behavioural problems (in animals or children) where it has become intractable.

Lateral thinking is looking at the dynamics of the situation from a different perspective, and pinpointing one aspect that could be changed which MIGHT then result in a beneficial change in the whole dynamic. (i.e. Elsworth's behaviour). Do you see? 

This is why I've said you are unlikely to see instant improvement, and will need to be patient and wait for the behaviour change to evolve in response to the change E is currently going through in his life, i.e. becoming more independent. If there is going to be an improvement I would expect to see it happen by the end of this summer. He will grow up a lot this summer, now he is being allowed outdoors.

I do understand it is not easy, when you are still getting the poo soiling accidents in the house, and you may feel downcast. But for the moment it is important to stay positive in your thinking and continue to be super, super patient with him for a couple more months, to give a chance for the change in dynamics take effect.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

He has been such a good boy today. Did a poo in the tray over night and then I left him alone outside without watching his every step. He came back in all by himself to find me and meow at me.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Brilliant! :thumbup1:


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I did have a neighbour ask if he had escaped though! I think they came across him in the park so he legged it away from them. He shot in as soon as I opened the door and refused to go downstairs for a few minutes after.

That was the end of today's adventure but it's obvious nobody will steal him and it shows that people in my area are lovely


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

After a week or so of no poo on the floor, today I get up and there is some directly next to the tray 

He now has 24/7 access to the enclosure, the others are doing well with being kept in. Sometimes they are in for the night, other times one of them stays out until she comes meowing at the window to be let in. No toiletting problems from Elise, if she is in she doesn't make a sound until it's time to get up. 

Elsworth hasn't had much proper outdoor time as I've not been around much to supervise properly. I only let him out if I am going to be home for most of the day so if I need to go out he stays in. Perhaps I should give him more outdoor time and start trusting him more. He's been out often enough now to get to grips with the area and if he gets scared he knows where to come back to. I think it's just me being over protective with him!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds like things are going well. :thumbup1: A week or so of him using the tray all the time is progress!  I'd expect he might have the odd slip-back for a while. 

Does he have a litter tray in his enclosure and if so does he use it much? 

Sounds as though you've got him well trained for coming home when you call him. As you say, the next step is to trust him to be allowed to go out when you're not there to check up on him.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Sounds like things are going well. :thumbup1: A week or so of him using the tray all the time is progress!  I'd expect he might have the odd slip-back for a while.
> 
> Does he have a litter tray in his enclosure and if so does he use it much?
> 
> Sounds as though you've got him well trained for coming home when you call him. As you say, the next step is to trust him to be allowed to go out when you're not there to check up on him.


Think that might have been a fluke as we have had 3 days now of poo on the floor.

He does have a tray outside but he doesn't use it, it's one of those waterproof ones so I don't think he's keen.

I'm thinking now that by the end of the month he should be able to go out freely during the day even if nobody is home. He seems perfectly capable of coming back in by himself when he's had enough and I no longer watch his every move when he's outside. Today is the biggest test as I've just got home so let him out when other cats and people are around. Hopefully he will behave himself, I've told Elsa to watch him but I think she would be more than happy if he got himself lost. A year on and she is still not a fan of her little brother. Girl cats


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