# Jack Russell Terrier Breeding



## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Hi there!
When i broke up from a long term engagement i decided to get a dog for a companion after moving into my new house. I looked into different breeds, done some online research and fell in love with Jack Russells.

Everything was a perfect fit from their high energy playful personalities, to their loyal nature's. From then on, it took me a few month's to find a breeder i was happy with and luckily enough they lived on a farm not too far away from my hometown.

I got my first Jack Russell named Lulabelle! She is a short legged or irish breed as some people refer to them differently, a tri colour and absolutely beautiful though very petite. I was complimented by my vet on her being a perfect example of her breed and encouraged to show her, though i decided not to as she is a pet.

A year later i decided that i would like to buy a companion for Lula, went through the same process and came home with Oso, a chunky little short legged Jack Russell who really lives up to the hyper active nature of his breed, he is buckets of fun.

Another year on and my JRT's are the light of my life. I am a writer/artist and so i work from home, which means i get to spend the whole day every day with my beloved pets.

I am now embarking on learning about breeding, again the idea came from my vet, who actually would like to give a home to one of the pups i hope to have in the future.

I have little knowledge as yet on the intimate details of breeding and am learning as a novice, though my gran and mum have both helped their own pets through pregnancy and labour and offer a lot of experienced advice.

I would love any JRT specific advice, experience, recommended reading and anything that will help me acquire the knowledge to safely embark on breeding Lula and Oso.

What are the specific JRT health tests needed? What are the best food changes to keep a pregnant JRT strong and healthy? Exercise changes? Mating safely? (Lula seems intent on presenting when in season even to my mum's Rottweiler!!) After mating care? Safe delivery? And after delivery changes and care?

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated in my journey to helping Lula have her own litter. This will be her only litter after which she will be spayed and Oso will be neutered. And i will have mummy daddy and baby as pets, hopefully she will have a small litter and the others will go to close family and friends. 

To clarify as i have seen it asked my reasons for breeding are: I am advised by breeder and vet that my mother especially is an beautiful example of her breed, myself and some close family and friends including my vet want puppies from the litter, also Lula's mothering instincts are strong, after she mothered my kitten and my second dog my vet agreed she would be a great mother.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Firstly well done for doing the research first and seriously thinking about the implications of breeding and if you decide to go ahead do all you can to ensure its done correctly and research first.

The main cautions would be that there tend to be a lot of Jack Russell terriers that end up in dog rehoming centres, and although you may have homes lined up for some it is a heavy responsibility finding good forever homes for ones that you may not have homes for.

Second caution, is that to do it all correctly breeding can be a very expensive and time consuming affair. Should you run into any problems medically during whelping and the pups need to be born by caesarean section, that alone bills can run into best part of if not four figures especially should it happen out of hours. Health tests, scans, whelping equipment and the cost of raising pups can also stack up. Pregnancy and whelping and the puppies are not covered on normal pet insurance, so its vital that you ensure you do have enough funding put aside to cover any problems.

Knowledge is vital as should you have whelping or post whelping problems then not being aware of potential problems and not acting quick enough can result in loss of Mum and pups, especially if she may be an extra small female.

The Jack Russell Terrier unlike the Parson Russell is not recognised by the Kennel club. If she is a Jack Russell, you would not have been able to show her aside from companion dog shows. There are health tests for eye problems in the Jack Russell and also a couple of DNA tests too. Details are on the Link Below.

Jack Russell Terrier | Dog Breed Health

The American Kennel club do a good PDF on responsible breeding, that although not comprehensive it outlines the basics and gives you some more suggested reading on the subject.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeders/resources/guide_to_breeding_your_dog.pdf

A must have Book to purchase if you are thinking about breeding is a Book called The Book of the Bitch too.

Another good quick easy reference site which outlines some of the common problems during and post whelping is below.

The 6 most common problems during and post whelping (canine pregnancy)

The links though are just a good easy reference starting point but there is a lot more research that you need to do to breed responsibly and safely.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Rehoming is the thing i am most worried about, i am hoping for a small litter, not only because it would be easier on Lula but because then i will be in contact with all the pups as they will go to family and friends. However i have made the decision that should she have more than 5 pups then they will stay with me. I can't bare the thought of not knowing where they are, if they are being treated right or if they are roaming the streets somewhere.

Yes i know, though i think it's a shame they're not KC recognised. Lula was only ever going to be showed locally in fun (though she is a whizz at agility!) It's a shame though, that she couldn't have participated on a higher level, and one of the many reasons i decided against any showing.

Money, yes, the big elephant in the breeding room so to speak haha. Both mum and dad are insured on very good policies and have high treatment expense limits, but i do think i'll go over their policies again to make sure pregnancy complications are included, so thankyou for reminding me. I also have my "Doggy Day Fund" which is an account i keep with emergency money should the worst ever happen *knock on wood* 

Aaah the book of the bitch! I keep hearing about this book as the bible haha I think i'll put a quick purchase in on this on amazon since every one speaks so highly of it.

Thankyou for the reading material! I have a feeling by the time i read everything enough times till im confident enough to let these little buggers breed another year may pass easily. Though Lula is still young so i don't think it would be bad putting it off for another while. Thanks again!


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Most insurance policies don't include anything to do with breeding.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Firedog said:


> Most insurance policies don't include anything to do with breeding.


I will be sure to re read the fine print of my policy to make sure. As i said though i have i lot of money in an emergency account for accidents or unforeseen illnesses and the likes for my dogs. So even if the policy doesn't cover me, i have plenty put away


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## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

Jack Russell pictures are always welcomed- Would love to see your dogs. Sorry cannot advise on the breeding as I have no experience/desire to breed.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Jackie99 said:


> Jack Russell pictures are always welcomed- Would love to see your dogs. Sorry cannot advise on the breeding as I have no experience/desire to breed.


Here's some pics of lulabelle


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http://instagr.am/p/YjwjejBS8L/


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http://instagr.am/p/Sx46byBS1y/


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http://instagr.am/p/Qkbgc-hS2O/

And then Oso arrived!!


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http://instagr.am/p/ZyRYgFBS32/


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http://instagr.am/p/afXy5zBS_z/


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http://instagr.am/p/dxP9U9BS9U/


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## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

They are just gorgeous  lulabelle reminds me a lot of my little man when he was younger and not so grey!  I have a huge soft spot for Tri Colour Jacks. Best of luck X


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Kyo said:


> Rehoming is the thing i am most worried about, i am hoping for a small litter, not only because it would be easier on Lula but because then i will be in contact with all the pups as they will go to family and friends. However i have made the decision that should she have more than 5 pups then they will stay with me. I can't bare the thought of not knowing where they are, if they are being treated right or if they are roaming the streets somewhere.
> 
> Yes i know, though i think it's a shame they're not KC recognised. Lula was only ever going to be showed locally in fun (though she is a whizz at agility!) It's a shame though, that she couldn't have participated on a higher level, and one of the many reasons i decided against any showing.
> 
> ...


I think you will find that the insurance does not include anything at all to do with pregnancy and breeding.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I think you will find that the insurance does not include anything at all to do with pregnancy and breeding.


Yeah the topic prompted me to get out my policy papers and have a good read and so far i have not come across anything about breeding so i am assuming i am not covered. I have good savings though unless costs go over around 7 and a half grand which is around what i have saved in my doggy emergency account then i would be looking at renewing my credit card or taking out a loan.



> They are just gorgeous lulabelle reminds me a lot of my little man when he was younger and not so grey! I have a huge soft spot for Tri Colour Jacks. Best of luck X


Thankyou so much! I see your little guy in your profile picture he's very distinguished :3 I think jack's are so cute when they get those little grey beards when they mature, makes them look like little gentlemen


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I do know when I was insured through the KC that I was told that breeding was not included in the policy and I would have to take out a totally separate policy.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't insure my dogs, and have had just the one litter. Can I just say, the financial costs were the least of my worries and I mean this in the nicest way so apologies if it comes across a little harsh, but it's your bitch you should be worried about. Are you sure she's a *good* example, and you're not letting your emotions about her cloud your judgement? You should know her weak points as well as what are her strengths, and you need to match up a dog to make up for whatever weaknesses she has. To do that, you need to understand conformation, or how a dog is built, your vet will be unlikely to be able to advise and to be perfectly honest, I am continually dismayed that vets encourage people to breed but don't warn them about the consequences - I hope your vet is willing to offer free treatment if your bitch has problems since they're encouraging you to breed? Because having to fork out about £3k over 3 months in vets bills can be a little bit draining. But, and back to my first point, by far the hardest thing is the emotional journey, yes, there can be rewards, but what is your end goal? Are you going to risk the life of your girl just because your vet thinks it's a good idea? Personally, I'd be changing vets. Breeding is always going to be a selfish decision on our part, but you do also have to stand back and be objective, what is it you want from this? What about your girl, do you know her strengths AND weaknesses? Are there any health tests you can do to try and ensure pups are as healthy as possible? Don't think about people who are wanting to go on a puppy waiting list, that should be the last thing on your mind, none of those people are risking the life of their pet, that will be your decision and things can and do go wrong. So please have a think about your objectives with breeding from your goal, rather than looking from the end perspective of everyone else around you seeming to want a puppy, I mean, who would say no to a cute puppy?? 

And welcome to the forum, I hope you have chance to have a read through some of the threads in here as there is a lot of valuable information and advice about breeding.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Money is by far not my priority, i only discussed it because it was the topic of conversation that came up with people. I am aware of the risks of pregnancy and that is why i have stated that i intend to research the topic for as long as it takes until i know i myself and my pet are ready. Honestly i thank you for your worry over the health of my pet but i would never do anything to risk the safety of my pet. There are risks in all pregnancy's animal or human, does that mean it is not worth it? No, not at all. Dog's have instincts just like us, we as women have been convinced the only safe birth is a hospital birth which in my personal opinion is just wrong. We have all animal and human alike been giving birth since the origin of our species with out all this interference, this is a modern social change and not that i doubt that technology is wonderful when needed i also have faith in myself as a woman to know my body and know how to birth my child, i have this same faith in my dog and so i hope to interfere as little as possible in her experience, which i think will be just as important to her as a mother giving birth to her baby. This by no means is me saying i mean to just let her get pregnant and leave her to it. As stated before i intend to learn as much as i possibly can before i allow her to become pregnant. I am aware my dog is not perfect, and dos indeed have flaws, but i am also not lying and am confident in the fact that she is a wonderful example of her breed, this has been stated by my vet, my breeder, other jack russell breeders who have gone so far as to stop me in the street to remark on her. It is also my firm belief through research i have done that some domesticated animals have the mothering instinct and some do not, such as my childhood cat, she did not take to motherhood and changed greatly after having her litter (which had not been planned, she went missing out of the house for a few days when we found her she was pregnant.) However through watching Lula's behavior i believe she would flourish in the role as a mother. I don't understand why some people act as though thinking about breeding your dog is the equivalent of sending them off into oncoming traffic. It's a wonderful thing, watching something you love beyond words bring new life into the world, providing of course you have learned enough to support her in her journey. Once again i appreciate your views very much as that is what i came here for but i assure you i will be taking every precaution to ensure her safety and a healthy pregnancy and delivery. Also the people on my "puppy waiting list" Are aunts and uncles who have had dogs their entire lives and my family vet whom i trust implicitly. My vet has not pressured me into breeding, she merely brought up the topic and asked that if i choose to do so, she would be very interested in a pup. I am confident in my decision, though not my knowledge, which is why i came here, to learn and grow as a pet owner. I'd just like to reiterate Lulabelle is the light of my life and always my first priority, i have watched the bonding process that happens not only with pups and mother but between owner and pet when going through such a thing together and find it amazing, and hope myself and lula will share in this awe inspiring process together and become closer through it.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Firedog said:


> I do know when I was insured through the KC that I was told that breeding was not included in the policy and I would have to take out a totally separate policy.


That's definitely something i will be looking into, a separate policy specifically for breeding, i wasn't aware of such policies, so thankyou for mentioning it


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kyo said:


> Money is by far not my priority, i only discussed it because it was the topic of conversation that came up with people. I am aware of the risks of pregnancy and that is why i have stated that i intend to research the topic for as long as it takes until i know i myself and my pet are ready. Honestly i thank you for your worry over the health of my pet but i would never do anything to risk the safety of my pet. There are risks in all pregnancy's animal or human, does that mean it is not worth it? No, not at all. Dog's have instincts just like us, we as women have been convinced the only safe birth is a hospital birth which in my personal opinion is just wrong. We have all animal and human alike been giving birth since the origin of our species with out all this interference, this is a modern social change and not that i doubt that technology is wonderful when needed i also have faith in myself as a woman to know my body and know how to birth my child, i have this same faith in my dog and so i hope to interfere as little as possible in her experience, which i think will be just as important to her as a mother giving birth to her baby. This by no means is me saying i mean to just let her get pregnant and leave her to it. As stated before i intend to learn as much as i possibly can before i allow her to become pregnant. I am aware my dog is not perfect, and dos indeed have flaws, but i am also not lying and am confident in the fact that she is a wonderful example of her breed, this has been stated by my vet, my breeder, other jack russell breeders who have gone so far as to stop me in the street to remark on her. It is also my firm belief through research i have done that some domesticated animals have the mothering instinct and some do not, such as my childhood cat, she did not take to motherhood and changed greatly after having her litter (which had not been planned, she went missing out of the house for a few days when we found her she was pregnant.) However through watching Lula's behavior i believe she would flourish in the role as a mother. I don't understand why some people act as though thinking about breeding your dog is the equivalent of sending them off into oncoming traffic. It's a wonderful thing, watching something you love beyond words bring new life into the world, providing of course you have learned enough to support her in her journey. Once again i appreciate your views very much as that is what i came here for but i assure you i will be taking every precaution to ensure her safety and a healthy pregnancy and delivery. Also the people on my "puppy waiting list" Are aunts and uncles who have had dogs their entire lives and my family vet whom i trust implicitly. My vet has not pressured me into breeding, she merely brought up the topic and asked that if i choose to do so, she would be very interested in a pup. I am confident in my decision, though not my knowledge, which is why i came here, to learn and grow as a pet owner. I'd just like to reiterate Lulabelle is the light of my life and always my first priority, i have watched the bonding process that happens not only with pups and mother but between owner and pet when going through such a thing together and find it amazing, and hope myself and lula will share in this awe inspiring process together and become closer through it.


I've not said that money is your priority, but you have to be prepared to pay out a bill that could run into thousands of pounds, on top of that, you may still end up losing your bitch, and pups. If you take a short look into the past of this section of the forum, it won't take you long to find some pretty devastating threads unfortunately.

My dogs are the light of my life, the best *character* I have got, I chose not to breed from, because her health tests weren't good enough; I was given conflicting advice at the time, took a step back, and made my own decision.

I'm sorry you've taken my post as a criticsm of your plans, it really wasn't meant to be, hence the first sentence saying it's not meant to be harsh, but I am incredibly honest and forthright. I understand that your relatives may want pups, but that's not, for me, a good reason for you to risk the life of your girl. As I said, we all have selfish reasons for breeding, mine was that my girl (I've got four bithces) was a nice temperament, if a little soft, fairly nice overall conformation, or what I like, she had a couple of weaknesses that I was keen to improve on for the next generation, and finally, she had some nice ability, a good natural marking ability and nice hunting skills, for a show bred Labrador.

You can't compare dogs and animals with the decision making bit, dogs are not the same as us when it comes to reproduction, in the wild (not that our dogs are wild) they act very, very differently I'm afraid. Even in mating there is a real risk of injury. We choose to be pregnant, and on our heads be it. We choose to put our dogs through the risk of whelping, it's not us that is risking our lives, and that is where the selfish bit I mentioned comes in. And is also why I think you need to be able to be objective about the decision whether or not to breed.

As I said, I'm not being mean, or harsh, but these are things you need to consider when breeding. Having a waiting list of relatives and an encouraging vet are not good reasons, I'm not saying that's your only reason for breeding, but these are things you have mentioned, and things, for me, that you need to put out of your mind so you can step back and take a good look at your plans.

I've already got a possible home for three pups from my next litter, which won't be for another year and a half, and may not be at all, depending on a lot of things, but having a waiting list is the least of my worries. First and foremost, I want health and temperament, balanced with good conformation, and for me, because I want to work/compete with my dogs, I also want them to have the right level of ability. Those are my beginning points, the thought of cute fluffy puppies does nothing for me, all I'm interested in is whether I have the right objectives in breeding, AND, as important, do I have the right *materials* in front of me - that bit is the hardest, because we all own the best dogs in the world, and it's easy to let that get in the way of being objective.

Anyway, as I've said, a few times, I'm not trying to be mean about your plans, but I am incredibly honest and a realist about these things.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_It's a wonderful thing, watching something you love beyond words bring new life into the world, providing of course you have learned enough to support her in her journey._

Oh dear. As an ex veterinary nurse and breeder for 30 years, I can assure you that's not always the case.

Can I ask you a question? Would you be happy to give birth with just your best friend with you rather than a knowledgable and experienced midwife who would recognise when things were going wrong? I would suggest that you need to experience a number of whelpings, they're all a bit different, before putting your precious girl at risk.

I am amazed at the number of vets who encourage owners to breed their pets as unless they are breeders themselves, generally their only experience is limited to sorting out whelping problems and unzipping bitches! My Vet when I lived in Berkshire had never seen a natural birth - his only training was to perform caesarians and he came to watch one of my bitches for the experience.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

There is a *massive* lack of health tested Jack Russell Terrier's (Primary Lens Luxatation). Quite a few Parsons but very few Jacks. 

I could not find a single litter in the whole of the UK... a few weeks after I bought Molly I found one just a few miles away but that's just the way it goes!


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Not at all, i totally understand where you're coming from and see your side of opinion. But i'm not breeding for fluffy puppies, for other people or any of that. I stated in my first post that the main reason i was breeding was because lula was an excellent example of her breed, and by this i do not just mean aesthetics, her temperament is fantastic, she's skilled and very smart, in fact her training went so well she was invited to do a dog calander shoot by the teacher of my obedience classes. As to her health tests i cannot comment until they are completed, that's why i had asked what sort of specific tests should i get my JRT on here in my OP. Also my other main reason for breeding was that I myself wish to have a pup bred from my Lula as she's exactly the type of jack russell that should be bred in this world of miniature obsessions, where people willingly breed the runts of litters in order to get smaller and smaller dogs not caring about the problems these pups will have in later life. A friend of mine fell victim to this mini craze and her poor little JRT now has bone deformities, sight problems, and the last i heard she needed an operation on her back legs (something to do with the joints) It truly upsets me. Lula may be small, but she is a stocky well built little JRT her proportions are lovely, her teeth are great, her markings are just stunning, and i have no health problems with her whatsoever. I think her line is a wonderful one to keep going. I would not buy from most of the breeders around here, and unfortunatly the breeder i bought lula from has now retired. I honestly am not offended or take your comments badly, i apoligise for being a little defensive, but i think you would understand, when it comes to our baby's sometimes we can get a little over excited and perhaps come off more defensive than we mean to be. Again thankyou for taking the time to reply to me and i again assure you i will not be going ahead with anything until i have learnt all i can about the whole process to keep my baby safe.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Westy said:


> _It's a wonderful thing, watching something you love beyond words bring new life into the world, providing of course you have learned enough to support her in her journey._
> 
> Oh dear. As an ex veterinary nurse and breeder for 30 years, I can assure you that's not always the case.
> 
> ...


Of course i would want a knowledgable and experienced person, which is why i keep stating that no matter how long it takes i am here to learn everything about the process of breeding before going ahead with any plans. And i'm not posetive, but i think i said before my mum and my gran have both had successful litters and i have been present at a lot of births, having breeders in my extended family, so i have experienced a lot of different births, most have been healthy straight forward births though i have only been present at one birth where there were complications, and i agree it was heartbreaking to see the distress to the mother, but her owner was there every step of the way calming her and helping her and i'm happy to say both mum and pups were fine. Again i'd like to assure everyone i have no plans to breed my girl before i am happy that my knowledge is where it needs to be for any situation that might occur, i always put my girl first and that will not change.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Kyo said:


> Not at all, i totally understand where you're coming from and see your side of opinion. But i'm not breeding for fluffy puppies, for other people or any of that. I stated in my first post that the main reason i was breeding was because lula was an excellent example of her breed, and by this i do not just mean aesthetics, her temperament is fantastic, she's skilled and very smart, in fact her training went so well she was invited to do a dog calander shoot by the teacher of my obedience classes. As to her health tests i cannot comment until they are completed, that's why i had asked what sort of specific tests should i get my JRT on here in my OP. Also my other main reason for breeding was that I myself wish to have a pup bred from my Lula as she's exactly the type of jack russell that should be bred in this world of miniature obsessions, where people willingly breed the runts of litters in order to get smaller and smaller dogs not caring about the problems these pups will have in later life. A friend of mine fell victim to this mini craze and her poor little JRT now has bone deformities, sight problems, and the last i heard she needed an operation on her back legs (something to do with the joints) It truly upsets me. Lula may be small, but she is a stocky well built little JRT her proportions are lovely, her teeth are great, her markings are just stunning, and i have no health problems with her whatsoever. I think her line is a wonderful one to keep going. I would not buy from most of the breeders around here, and unfortunatly the breeder i bought lula from has now retired. I honestly am not offended or take your comments badly, i apoligise for being a little defensive, but i think you would understand, when it comes to our baby's sometimes we can get a little over excited and perhaps come off more defensive than we mean to be. Again thankyou for taking the time to reply to me and i again assure you i will not be going ahead with anything until i have learnt all i can about the whole process to keep my baby safe.


I think you mean Luxating Patella when you say about the hind legs. That's pretty common in Jacks, even 'proper' size ones. Vets can check these manually easily for you.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kyo said:


> Not at all, i totally understand where you're coming from and see your side of opinion. But i'm not breeding for fluffy puppies, for other people or any of that. I stated in my first post that the main reason i was breeding was because lula was an excellent example of her breed, and by this i do not just mean aesthetics, her temperament is fantastic, she's skilled and very smart, in fact her training went so well she was invited to do a dog calander shoot by the teacher of my obedience classes. As to her health tests i cannot comment until they are completed, that's why i had asked what sort of specific tests should i get my JRT on here in my OP. Also my other main reason for breeding was that I myself wish to have a pup bred from my Lula as she's exactly the type of jack russell that should be bred in this world of miniature obsessions, where people willingly breed the runts of litters in order to get smaller and smaller dogs not caring about the problems these pups will have in later life. A friend of mine fell victim to this mini craze and her poor little JRT now has bone deformities, sight problems, and the last i heard she needed an operation on her back legs (something to do with the joints) It truly upsets me. Lula may be small, but she is a stocky well built little JRT her proportions are lovely, her teeth are great, her markings are just stunning, and i have no health problems with her whatsoever. I think her line is a wonderful one to keep going. I would not buy from most of the breeders around here, and unfortunatly the breeder i bought lula from has now retired. I honestly am not offended or take your comments badly, i apoligise for being a little defensive, but i think you would understand, when it comes to our baby's sometimes we can get a little over excited and perhaps come off more defensive than we mean to be. Again thankyou for taking the time to reply to me and i again assure you i will not be going ahead with anything until i have learnt all i can about the whole process to keep my baby safe.


Thank you for taking my comments the way they are menat to be, hopefully constructive criticism, although it's not easy to take any criticism about our dogs constructive or otherways, particularly from a complete stranger. 

I wish you the best of luck with your research, that's the easy bit for me, and the bit I like, I plan on a trip to Europe next year to hopefully look at some dogs in the flesh that have some interesting lines to hopefully compliment my flatcoat bitch, but we'll see. Lots of health testing to do before then.

As regards JRT's, I'm not sure if they have any eye tests, I'd look at what is recommended for the parson's terrier, and go from there. I think possibly patella luxation grading, if that hasn't been mentioned.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Kyo said:


> i have learnt all i can about the whole process to keep my baby safe.


I applaud your research in to breeding, I am not going to comment on some of your reasons for breeding 

The above though I do feel the need to comment on, with all the research and planning in the world, you can not guarantee your dogs safety or that of the puppies, so that's something you also need to think about are you willing to put your dogs life at risk and those of her puppies for something YOU want to do, because it will make no difference to your dog at all if she has a litter or not, she will miss nothing being spayed and not having a litter, leaving her unspayed could have serious risks for her, and breeding her could, so you have to decided if your willing to risk her, for a litter you want.

Recommended Test for Parson's:
Schemes or advice relevant to this breed
Kennel Club Assured Breeders are strongly recommended to use the following screening schemes and/or advice for sires and dams
BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme
DNA test - PLL
The following other health tests are also available.
DNA test - Late Onset Ataxia


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I applaud your research in to breeding, I am not going to comment on some of your reasons for breeding
> 
> The above though I do feel the need to comment on, with all the research and planning in the world, you can not guarantee your dogs safety or that of the puppies, so that's something you also need to think about are you willing to pup your dogs life at risk and those of her puppies for something YOU want to do, because it will make no difference to your dog at all if she has a litter or not, she will miss nothing being spayed and not having a litter, leaving her unspayed could have serious risk for her, and breeding her could, so you have to decided if your willing to risk her, for a litter you want.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised a patella luxation test isn't recommended, having seen a lot of small terrier type dogs seem to do the hopping action associated with patella problems?


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Yes, it's not my dog so i'm afraid i couldn't remember the specifics of what was wrong with the lil one, but i know she has had a dreadful time with the poor lil might all because he was bred from supposed "miniatures" It really is something that upsets me. Jack Russells aren't big dogs to begin with so i don't see the need in this miniature phenomena. I am forever thankful i found my breeder because it was a wonderful experience, watching my pup grow with it's litter mates until i could finally take her home, and she was bred from two beautiful little jack's which i still visit regularly with lula


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thank you for taking my comments the way they are menat to be, hopefully constructive criticism, although it's not easy to take any criticism about our dogs constructive or otherways, particularly from a complete stranger.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck with your research, that's the easy bit for me, and the bit I like, I plan on a trip to Europe next year to hopefully look at some dogs in the flesh that have some interesting lines to hopefully compliment my flatcoat bitch, but we'll see. Lots of health testing to do before then.
> 
> As regards JRT's, I'm not sure if they have any eye tests, I'd look at what is recommended for the parson's terrier, and go from there. I think possibly patella luxation grading, if that hasn't been mentioned.


Primary Lens Luxatation and eye test I think for eye testing.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I applaud your research in to breeding, I am not going to comment on some of your reasons for breeding
> 
> The above though I do feel the need to comment on, with all the research and planning in the world, you can not guarantee your dogs safety or that of the puppies, so that's something you also need to think about are you willing to put your dogs life at risk and those of her puppies for something YOU want to do, because it will make no difference to your dog at all if she has a litter or not, she will miss nothing being spayed and not having a litter, leaving her unspayed could have serious risks for her, and breeding her could, so you have to decided if your willing to risk her, for a litter you want.
> 
> ...


Thankyou very much for the information on health testing, all now noted down in my pad. May i ask a question though? If my reason's for breeding (carrying on a good strong line of jack russell, wanting to breed for a pup from a line i know to be healthy and not all the miniature obsessed breeders around me and experiencing it with my beloved pet which CAN be a beautiful experience not always full of danger, well at the births i have been present at anyway) What is a good reason for breeding? Thankyou again for your input.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Identifying Health Problems Common to Jack Russell Terriers - For Dummies

Jack Russell Terrier | Dog Breed Health

Jack Russell Terrier

Wow surprised at how many health issues the JRT could have...

Also didn't realise the FCI recognise them as a breed


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

I know, i am very surprised at everything i am reading, there are a lot of health tests i had not thought would effect JRT's it's very interesting reading. Big thankyous to everyone posting links for me, i am finding a lot of reading very helpful


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Good on you for asking advise:.. And actually taking it!
I have yorkies, and have a mother (kuki) and daughter (poppet) with my mum owning my poppets grandmother and aunt... Must say though that never have I been so stressed in my life!
Honestly, the vet telling you how good she is doesn't surprise me- most vets will tell owners that, and to me, telling you to show her (when they aren't a show-able breed) would tell me they know little of the breed. But as I say, my personal interpretation!
LP in my opinion is something Every toy and terrier dog should be tested for prior to even considering breeding. Of course there are some environmental factors that can affect the knees, but knowing the families LP history is Always worthwhile- same as PRA. 

I've seen my girls through pregnancy and birth, and must say I hadn't expected them to cry quite so much- Kuki especially when she had her 2nd boy- he was that but bigger n near broke my heart! In one litter kukis mum (missy) had 7 pups- yup, 7! So be prepared for a big litter while hoping for a little one! Thankfully Kuki was 2 when missy had the 7 so at 4 weeks she handed the litter over to kuk and the others and was back in condition within 2 months- when the pups left at 10-11 weeks the owners couldn't believe how well miss looked compared to the scraggly thing they'd originally met!
I've been lucky that the most interference my girls have needed is me doing chords and sacs, and on a few occasions a trip tot the vet for an oxytocin hot to keep contractions going, but as SL said it would be worthwhile reading some old threads to prepare yourself for any possibility- not only in the birth, but in the weeks following.

Very much looking forward to learning more about your fur kids, and a big welcome to the forum!!


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> Good on you for asking advise:.. And actually taking it!
> I have yorkies, and have a mother (kuki) and daughter (poppet) with my mum owning my poppets grandmother and aunt... Must say though that never have I been so stressed in my life!
> Honestly, the vet telling you how good she is doesn't surprise me- most vets will tell owners that, and to me, telling you to show her (when they aren't a show-able breed) would tell me they know little of the breed. But as I say, my personal interpretation!
> LP in my opinion is something Every toy and terrier dog should be tested for prior to even considering breeding. Of course there are some environmental factors that can affect the knees, but knowing the families LP history is Always worthwhile- same as PRA.
> ...


Thankyou! And to be fair my vet was talking about local pet shows which are mostly for fun, she wasn't sending me to the pro's haha.
That's my gran's approach, she was as un involved as she could possibly be in her births with her dogs, she never had any problems and was of the opinion that the dog knows what she's doing, stay out of it lol. I realise this is an out dated opinion nowadays but i do think they have the natural instinct there telling their bodies what to do, so i hope not to be too involved in my girls big moment. I will defo be going through all the threads i can to see the different situations that can arise, i've only ever witnessed one difficult birth in all the births i've been present at so it's not something i know a lot about yet.

7 pups gosh, i really am hoping for a small litter, more for Lula's sake, i really don't mind dissapointing people who are hoping for one of her puppies i'd rather she have three healthy pups and i have dissapointed friends than see her perhaps struggle with a huge litter. In fact three would be my perfect number as i am keeping one, my mum wants one as does my gran and aunt who live together. Any more than five means i'll be keeping more than one bundle of joy as i only have five people i can say i truly trust to give loving forever homes and know i'll still get to see them. I honestly don't think i actually could breed a litter and sell them knowing i'd never know how they were getting on, it would break my heart.

I think it will be a very emotional experience and i'll probably be panting along with my little angel, wiping the tears away, but hopefully a well worth while and memorable one we can both treasure.

I must say btw your doggies are absolutely adorable!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Oooh, I'm afraid they don't always know what they're doing. How to put it politely, your girl may actually not want to be mated, so you may be surprised if she behaves completely out of character, and if she is shorter than the boy then some compensation has to be made somewhere and mating can be very hands on with bits you never thought you'd need to get that close to with dogs. You need to be intimately knowledgeable with your bitch, know her seasons, and what's normal. I suggest you buy a book called 'The Book of the Bitch' and have a really good read through. It certainly is not a natural thing, and actually, dogs living in the same household sometimes don't want to mate because they are too familiar - it's not as straight forward as you might think.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oooh, I'm afraid they don't always know what they're doing. How to put it politely, your girl may actually not want to be mated, so you may be surprised if she behaves completely out of character, and if she is shorter than the boy then some compensation has to be made somewhere and mating can be very hands on with bits you never thought you'd need to get that close to with dogs. You need to be intimately knowledgeable with your bitch, know her seasons, and what's normal. I suggest you buy a book called 'The Book of the Bitch' and have a really good read through. It certainly is not a natural thing, and actually, dogs living in the same household sometimes don't want to mate because they are too familiar - it's not as straight forward as you might think.


Ah, this is something i was wondering about! (and btw got recommended Book of the Bitch on page one it is ordered and on the way!) But anyway, when Lula goes into season she is very very intent on presenting to my other dog and is forceful at times, becoming frustrated when Oso (who was a pup at the time) did not seem to know what to do. She will then present to my neighbours dogs who are fixed and become equally frustrated, although one time completely through my own fault as they were unsupervised, my neighbours dog managed to mount her and let's just say thank doggy god he was fixed or i would have had puppies whether i was ready or not!

Back to the point does this behavior prelude that she will be ready and willing and easy to mate or is it completely different when a tie is actually made? To me it looks as though she really wants to be "caught" but again i am only beginning to learn about this so i could just be misreading the signs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

She sounds as though she is standing alright, that said, my bitch was standing for the dining table, flicking her tail over, but really just did not want to know when the real thing was presented. You may not find out until the actual event, if you get that far, but don't expect it to be easy, and don't expect them both to be all Barry White and scatter cushions it could be nasty, there could be injuries etc. I would suggest, if it hasn't been suggested already, since you know someone who used to breed JRT's that you ask them to get involved with your plans and any future possible matings to help you out. I wouldn't want to put my girls through a mating without having a knowledgeable stud dog handler present. 

I hadn't seen that the book of the bitch had already been recommended, glad you've got it on order, definitely the best all round reference book not just for those planning to breed, but those who want to know about the physiology of their dogs.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

i know for a fact many yorkies have no idea when it comes to birth- and if they are Not helped with sacs and chords many will just leave the pup, or worse they get Over enthusiastic about it and catch a leg when trying to do the chord  (missy nearly did that- my mum had to hold her head away for the rest of the litter so she didn't chew off a leg) 
i only bring this up because both yours and mine are small terriers- so there May be that in common.
as for the mating... had i not been sitting right in front of kuki scratching her ears when the stud mounted her i dread to think the outcome. as soon as the poor lov felt him she tried to bolt. now if he had of already tied and she tried to run... not pretty.
but the second time round (two days later) she was all for it- but once the tie was over she would have had his bits off  even though she had no objection to him using them on her 

and thankyou- i know i'm bias, but they're the prettiest yorklets in the world! :cornut:


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_I myself wish to have a pup bred from my Lula as she's exactly the type of jack russell that should be bred in this world of miniature obsessions,_

OK you're obviously keen to breed regardless so can I politely suggest that you contact your bitch's retired breeder and hopefully go and visit to see your bitch's dam and any other possible relatives. The same goes for the dog that you are planning to use because while you're bitch may be the ipitomy of what you think is right and good, the sires and dams of both the prospective dam and sire will often have more influence on the puppies produced than the dam and sire themselves. With that in mind and as you want to be a responsible breeder and do the right thing, to research and see what's behind your proposed dog and bitch, in both health, type and temperament is most important.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I don't know much about breeding but just wanted to applaud you for planning health tests on your JRTs 

Health tests, to me, are sooo important and it is almost impossible to find a JRT puppy who's parents were tested (I helped my aunt try to find a JRT)... As the owner of a Parson Russell, I would assume that PRT recommended health tests are probably relevant to JRTs.

I am all for breeding if you are willing to put the work, effort and money in to the litter. And to improve lines/breeds. Unfortunately JRTs, in my opinion, as a breed, need a lot of improvement. There are too many people breeding 'just because' and with a breed that is not recognised by the KC and has no standard, people seem to think that they don't have to put any effort or care in to their breeding (not speaking about every JRT breeder of course, but the vast majority).

I wish you all the best with your pooches


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oooh, I'm afraid they don't always know what they're doing.


Once the mating is done there is also the fact that if both Mother and Pups make it, that she may not know what to do with the pups, she may product no milk, she may also totally reject her puppies, which leave the breeder to bring them up.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Jennifer (lula's breeder) has already kindly offered her support in any way i need when i decide i'm ready. She did actually offer to take lula and breed her but i wanted to learn about it myself and go through it all side by side with my baby, though having jen next to me holding my hand i think will be a necessity. Otherwise i fear i'd be a blubbering mess on the phone to the vet 24 hrs a day, like ned flanders to the priest! She breathed left instead of right somethings wrooooong! haha

I've seen the book of bitch being talked about all over this forum so i defo can't wait till it arrives to have a good read. I also have a friend who lives across the road who works for the RSPCA and is studying dog psychology so i've been stealing her textbooks a lot lol

Seriously thankyou again for all your advice even if i seemed uber defensive at first. Lula is my everything and little Oso too, but Lula has been with me through some of my darkest days and this decision has been a hard one because of the risk involved in all pregnancy's but i would never enter into anything without the proper knowledge and a lot of help from proffesionals and friends and at first i felt a little like woah these people think i don't care about lula just the puppies so i went on defense mode, apoligies apoligies


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Once the mating is done there is also the fact that if both Mother and Pups make it, that she may not know what to do with the pups, she may product no milk, she may also totally reject her puppies, which leave the breeder to bring them up.


This definitely - 19 years ago when I was 18 my mongrel bitch got caught, back then (or certainly where I live) it was nothing unusual for your bitch to have a litter and it was just something that happened. She gave birth to 9 puppies, saw to the sacks, cords and cleaning fine and then nothing, she wouldn't have anything to do with the puppies at all. This was a bitch who was the most loving girl you could ever hope for and I thought she would be the perfect mother. We (my 2 sisters and hubby) had to hand feed those 9 puppies every 2 hours, day and night, we lost one pup at 7 days, the others grew into lovely, healthy dogs but my God it was hard work, even with 4 of us sharing the jobs. Of course it wasn't just the feeding, it was the getting them to wee and poo and everything else associated with bringing them up. Definitely not something I'd ever want to do again, all our bitches have been spayed asap since. Letting those puppies go to their new homes was one of the most heart breaking things ever


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> i know for a fact many yorkies have no idea when it comes to birth- and if they are Not helped with sacs and chords many will just leave the pup, or worse they get Over enthusiastic about it and catch a leg when trying to do the chord  (missy nearly did that- my mum had to hold her head away for the rest of the litter so she didn't chew off a leg)
> i only bring this up because both yours and mine are small terriers- so there May be that in common.
> as for the mating... had i not been sitting right in front of kuki scratching her ears when the stud mounted her i dread to think the outcome. as soon as the poor lov felt him she tried to bolt. now if he had of already tied and she tried to run... not pretty.
> but the second time round (two days later) she was all for it- but once the tie was over she would have had his bits off  even though she had no objection to him using them on her
> ...


I have heard a lot about over zealous cord chewing and i did see it in action with my grans second litter, almost every pup was moved away from her so she would stop chewing. luckily we had no incidents after she was finished. I think i defo will ask Jen to be present for the actual mating, do not want injury! and haha aren't we all bias! Never seen more beautiful ears than on my lil boy jack, and yet they are a fault haha


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Westy said:


> _I myself wish to have a pup bred from my Lula as she's exactly the type of jack russell that should be bred in this world of miniature obsessions,_
> 
> OK you're obviously keen to breed regardless so can I politely suggest that you contact your bitch's retired breeder and hopefully go and visit to see your bitch's dam and any other possible relatives. The same goes for the dog that you are planning to use because while you're bitch may be the ipitomy of what you think is right and good, the sires and dams of both the prostpective dam and sire will often have more influence on the puppies produced than the dam and sire themselves. With that in mind and as you want to be a responsible breeder and do the right thing, to research and see what's behind your proposed dog and bitch, in both health, type and temperament is most important.


I feel the first part of this comment is a little unfair as i am not going to "breed regardless" I came here to aid my learning and help gather the knowledge i need before i even think about breeding which i have stated many times. I have also spoke of temperement and health being of high importance to my decision too. And once more i have stated that my breeder is going to be an active part in my dogs breeding come the time. Thankyou for your input and taking the time to read and answer my thread.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> I don't know much about breeding but just wanted to applaud you for planning health tests on your JRTs
> 
> Health tests, to me, are sooo important and it is almost impossible to find a JRT puppy who's parents were tested (I helped my aunt try to find a JRT)... As the owner of a Parson Russell, I would assume that PRT recommended health tests are probably relevant to JRTs.
> 
> ...


Thankyou!! As far as i'm aware my breeder told me both her dogs were health tested though i am not sure which tests they had as i was uneducated on breeding at the time and did not ask. Though i'm sure jen will talk me through them on my next visit. I am completely aware it takes a LOT of effort and willingly wnt to put every bit into the experience to hopefully ensure it is a happy time. Thankyou again!


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

lipsthefish said:


> This definitely - 19 years ago when I was 18 my mongrel bitch got caught, back then (or certainly where I live) it was nothing unusual for your bitch to have a litter and it was just something that happened. She gave birth to 9 puppies, saw to the sacks, cords and cleaning fine and then nothing, she wouldn't have anything to do with the puppies at all. This was a bitch who was the most loving girl you could ever hope for and I thought she would be the perfect mother. We (my 2 sisters and hubby) had to hand feed those 9 puppies every 2 hours, day and night, we lost one pup at 7 days, the others grew into lovely, healthy dogs but my God it was hard work, even with 4 of us sharing the jobs. Of course it wasn't just the feeding, it was the getting them to wee and poo and everything else associated with bringing them up. Definitely not something I'd ever want to do again, all our bitches have been spayed asap since. Letting those puppies go to their new homes was one of the most heart breaking things ever


I went through a similar experience myself with kittens which were actually orphaned as their mother an old friend of mine's cat was run over a mere week after they were born, my friend couldn't handle it and so i took them on. It was an extreimly hard going job but i felt so proud at the end watching them run and play. Thankyou for sharing your experience.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree with the comments already made. Few vets have experience breeding and any vet recommending breeding a pet does not sound great. We put our dogs through breeding they don't ask for it so, as SL has said, you really need to step back and be objective about it rather than sentimental. You are putting your bitch at risk (far more risk than a human pregnancy) so you need to step back and take sentiment out of it, although it will still be an emotional roller coaster. Health tests have already been mentioned although I am a bit concerned that you aren't aware of luxating patella as it is such a common problem in JRT. A few other pointers that stand out to me. If you're planning to use your male JRT, what is it about him that compliments your bitch? The best dog for a mating is rarely the most convenient. Are you aware that it is not a good idea to mate two maidens? The chances are that this will need a lot of hands on help, and as they live together they may not even actually do it. If they do mate, are you aware that the bitch could panic and two inexperienced dogs panicking during the tie can cause untold internal damage. Despite what people think is natural, we have domesticated our dogs so much that these things don't always come naturally. Honestly, if you plan to go ahead , which it sounds like you will, I would find an experienced stud dog with an experienced stud dog handler. As far as the puppies go, then you cannot guarantee a small litter, so you need to prepare yourself that you may need to find homes with strangers and you will need to vet them. Please don't keep the rest of the pups it is a recipe for disaster and quite unfair on the puppies - google littermate syndrome if you are unsure why!



> Otherwise i fear i'd be a blubbering mess on the phone to the vet 24 hrs a day, like ned flanders to the priest!


But most of all you need to toughen up. It can go well and it's stressful enough watching a bitch you love when it all goes well, but the not uncommon reality is dead pups being born, losing some or all of the pups in the first weeks and while not so common, losing your bitch.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I agree with the comments already made. Few vets have experience breeding and any vet recommending breeding a pet does not sound great. We put our dogs through breeding they don't ask for it so, as SL has said, you really need to step back. You are putting your bitch at risk (far more risk than a human pregnancy) so you need to step back and take sentiment out of it, although it will still be an emotional roller coaster. Health tests have already been mentioned although I am a bit concerned that you aren't aware of luxating patella as it is such a common problem in JRT. A few other pointers that stand out to me. If you're planning to use your male JRT, what is it about him that compliments your bitch? The best dog for a mating is rarely the most convenient. Are you aware that it is not a good idea to mate two maidens? The chances are that this will need a lot of hands on help, and as they live together they may not even actually do it. If they do mate, are you aware that the bitch could panic and two inexperienced dogs panicking during the tie can cause untold damage. Despite what people think is natural, we have domesticated our dogs so much that these things don't always come naturally. Honestly, if you plan to go ahead , which it sounds like you will, I would find an experienced stud dog with an experienced stud dog handler. As far as the puppies go, then you cannot guarantee a small litter, so you need to prepare yourself that you may need to find homes with strangers and you will need to vet them. Please don't keep the rest of the pups it is a recipe for disaster and quite unfair on the puppies - google littermate syndrome if you are unsure why!
> 
> But most of all you need to toughen up. It can go well and it's stressful enough watching a bitch you love when it all goes well, but the not uncommon reality is dead pups being born, losing some or all of the pups in the first weeks and while not so common, losing your bitch.


I know i am repeating myself here so i apoligise, but i am trying to answer everyone as efficiently as possible. As to the possible problems during mating and my inexperience, i have decided that when the time comes i will not be handling it myself i will lay my faith in jen (lula's breeder) This is defo one area no amount of reading and learning can help me with. Where as i have seen many births i have never seen a mating and so i will hand the reigns to jen. This is something i learned from talking here and the helpful support of others. As to littermate's syndrome, my ex fiance's father has littermate's my gran has littermates, my mums best friend has littermate's and i have known other people who have done, yes this can lead to behavioral problems and dominance issues but, all the above mentioned go to the same trainer i do and none of them have problems with their littermates. I believe this is a case of nurture over nature. This is my personal opinion. I have read specialists who agree with it and those who disagree, so i will neither say i'm right nor i'm wrong. No breeder can be sure that complications will not happen but i believe i am breeding for the right reasons, and doing the appropriate research and learning over an undetermined time because i won't go ahead with anything unless i am completely confident in not only my own knowledge but the proffesionals around me in which i put my trust. Once again my vet did NOT recomend nor push me towards breeding, she simply discussed the topic with me asking if i meant to and asked if i should go ahead with it she wished one of the pups. The other comment you quoted was a joke on my behalf taken out of context. Yes i will be a bag of nerves when it happens but isn't any breeder who truly cares for their dog? I have read a lot of threads while browsing today and all owners going through their dogs labour seems to be nervous, emotional, sometimes frantic, because they love their dogs. Thankyou for your input and taking the time to reply.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Kyo said:


> I know i am repeating myself here so i apoligise, but i am trying to answer everyone as efficiently as possible. As to the possible problems during mating and my inexperience, i have decided that when the time comes i will not be handling it myself i will lay my faith in jen (lula's breeder) This is defo one area no amount of reading and learning can help me with. Where as i have seen many births i have never seen a mating and so i will hand the reigns to jen. This is something i learned from talking here and the helpful support of others. As to littermate's syndrome, my ex fiance's father has littermate's my gran has littermates, my mums best friend has littermate's and i have known other people who have done, yes this can lead to behavioral problems *and dominance issues *but, all the above mentioned go to the same trainer i do and none of them have problems with their littermates. I believe this is a case of nurture over nature. This is my personal opinion. I have read specialists who agree with it and those who disagree, so i will neither say i'm right nor i'm wrong. No breeder can be sure that complications will not happen but i believe i am breeding for the right reasons, and doing the appropriate research and learning over an undetermined time because i won't go ahead with anything unless i am completely confident in not only my own knowledge but the proffesionals around me in which i put my trust. Once again my vet did NOT recomend nor push me towards breeding, she simply discussed the topic with me asking if i meant to and asked if i should go ahead with it she wished one of the pups. The other comment you quoted was a joke on my behalf taken out of context. Yes i will be a bag of nerves when it happens but isn't any breeder who truly cares for their dog? I have read a lot of threads while browsing today and all owners going through their dogs labour seems to be nervous, emotional, sometimes frantic, because they love their dogs. Thankyou for your input and taking the time to reply.


It has nothing to do with dominance issues - but hey - you know best!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Kyo said:


> To clarify as i have seen it asked my reasons for breeding are: I am advised by Lula's mothering instincts are strong, after she mothered my kitten and my second dog my vet agreed she would be a great mother.


So you asked me why I questioned some of your reasons for breeding, the other points are pretty standard, pretty much what everyone says for wanting a litter, unfortunately.

But the above for me are REALLY not reason to breed, the other are also not a reason to breed, but these just are far fetched, t I have a male Rottweiler and a male Siamese who mother other animals, so are their Mothering instincts strong as males? Also how does your Vet know she will make a great Mother? Know one can know that until the time she gives birth and being a Maiden the whole experience might be awful for her, the chances are she'll have no clue what to do..


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I'm not sure what your 'breeder' has already told you, or even if she rears her litters in what's considered to be the best way.

You will need to sleep with the bitch for the last week of pregnancy as some can have their litters early (it's to do with the timing of the egg release) and every night and stay with her all day as well for the first 2 weeks at least, in case anything goes wrong or Mum rolls on a puppy.

Also, I'm not sure what age you will have been advised they can go to their new homes, but 8-9 weeks is best as they will have learned a great deal about canine interaction and socialisation. I'm not sure if it applies to Terriers but many small breeds develop more slowly, hence many breeders of Toy breeds allow to them to leave only at 10-12 weeks.

Puppies are incredibly hard work, as well as being messy and smelly and noisy. You will often find the reason why some let them go at 6 weeks (or earlier  ) is because of the work and cleaning entailed, not to mention the noise.

You will also need to actively socialise them yourself, getting them used to household noises, your garden, carrying them out to meet people and see the sights and sounds of various places, trips in the car etc. before they go to new homes.

It's possible your breeder may say none of the above is necessary, but if you want to do the best possible job then this is what's ahead of you. And it's not for the faint-hearted.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Meezey said:


> So you asked me why I questioned some of your reasons for breeding, the other points are pretty standard, pretty much what everyone says for wanting a litter, unfortunately.
> 
> But the above for me are REALLY not reason to breed, the other are also not a reason to breed, but these just are far fetched, t I have a male Rottweiler and a male Siamese who mother other animals, so are their Mothering instincts strong as males? Also how does your Vet know she will make a great Mother? Know one can know that until the time she gives birth and being a Maiden the whole experience might be awful for her, the chances are she'll have no clue what to do..


But... that's not what i wrote... That was one tiny aspect of what i wrote. A fun fact about my dog before i realised every tiny syllable i uttered i would be judged negatively on. I wrote a hell of a lot more substantial reasoning with my main reasons being that she was a great example of her breed, her temperment is fantastic, she has zero health problems and i wish to breed from her strong genes rather than the morons around today who breed runts with major issues just to get tiny micro dogs. I am doing everything possible the right way and seem to be being attacked for it. I came here to learn instead of just jumping into it, i came here to seek advice from experienced breeders and hopefully support in my learning as i'm not yet even thinking about setting things in motion. I am feeling extreimly attacked here and i have done nothing wrong. Is wanting to learn about breeding really so bad? I could be like a million others out there who just say **** it i want to breed so im going to but i care about my dog a lot more than that and wanted to learn and grow and when i am ready to seek support. When i asked you about what was a good reason for breeding i gave you in the question my exact reasons for breeding but you quoted some line out of context from somewhere else. Why do people feel they need to make me feel bad? Just because i want to learn how to properly breed my dog before i do something stupid like so many others. There are ways to educate people of the risks without tearing them down and making them feel cruel. Please stop doing so.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> I'm not sure what your 'breeder' has already told you, or even if she rears her litters in what's considered to be the best way.
> 
> You will need to sleep with the bitch for the last week of pregnancy as some can have their litters early (it's to do with the timing of the egg release) and every night and stay with her all day as well for the first 2 weeks at least, in case anything goes wrong or Mum rolls on a puppy.
> 
> ...


Yes, thankyou very much for your advice, and for putting it in a way that does not make me feel so awful for even thinking about it. I am in tears from some of the replies i am getting for doing the right thing and asking for help to learn.
But yeah, all good points, my gran bred her beloved pooches and i was often around them as they were growing up, my mums too when she had her litter a few years ago, i remember her being veeeery tired and i even had to take some night shifts so she could go to my house and get a decent sleep  I am hoping that favour may be returned once or twice in my 8 weeks of pupdom when the time comes. 
These are defo all things to discuss with Jen my breeder, who i can assure everyone is one of the good ones, i got lula two days before she was 9 weeks a happy healthy plump little curious pup. I even got to watch her grow and was allowed to take part in her socialising once or twice at jen's house.

Thankyou so much for your reply.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Well I'm certainly bailing out from this thread because I can't begin to see what good reason you have for mating two pet dogs. Whatever suggestions are made and whatever anyone with experience says, you ignore it and say that you know best, so I will just wish you good luck with your venture.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Westy said:


> Well I'm certainly bailing out from this thread because I can't begin to see what good reason you have for mating two pet dogs. Whatever suggestions are made and whatever anyone with experience says, you ignore it and say that you know best, so I will just wish you good luck with your venture.


That is not true in the slightest! I have already changed my mind on an aspect of breeding i had not thought of thanks to people who did not cruelly talk down to me but gave helpful advice. The fact is i am from a family of breeders so i have my own opinions too! I always say i neither claim to be right or wrong its only my opinion and i always take other peoples opinions into account. You have no reasoning for saying that about me. I thought this place was supposed to be friendly and a supportive family of pet lovers? I am doing everything right?i came here and asked people to help me learn i have purchased the books i've been told too, i have downloaded the PDF's i have noted down every suggestion every health test every possible complication in my notepad. I am trying my best not to take things personally but some of you are so cruel in the way you talk to me like im a child who knows nothing and just wants a puppy for the sake of having a puppy. It is an unfair assumption on me and one i have repeatedly proved wrong by explaining my experience my willingness to be guided and my help network around me which i wish to involve in my journey. Perhaps this isn't the place i thought it was.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Kyo said:


> But... that's not what i wrote... That was one tiny aspect of what i wrote. A fun fact about my dog before i realised every tiny syllable i uttered i would be judged negatively on. I wrote a hell of a lot more substantial reasoning with my main reasons being that she was a great example of her breed, her temperment is fantastic, she has zero health problems and i wish to breed from her strong genes rather than the morons around today who breed runts with major issues just to get tiny micro dogs. I am doing everything possible the right way and seem to be being attacked for it. I came here to learn instead of just jumping into it, i came here to seek advice from experienced breeders and hopefully support in my learning as i'm not yet even thinking about setting things in motion. I am feeling extreimly attacked here and i have done nothing wrong. Is wanting to learn about breeding really so bad? I could be like a million others out there who just say **** it i want to breed so im going to but i care about my dog a lot more than that and wanted to learn and grow and when i am ready to seek support. When i asked you about what was a good reason for breeding i gave you in the question my exact reasons for breeding but you quoted some line out of context from somewhere else. Why do people feel they need to make me feel bad? Just because i want to learn how to properly breed my dog before i do something stupid like so many others. There are ways to educate people of the risks without tearing them down and making them feel cruel. Please stop doing so.


I can't make you feel cruel only you can do that? I can't control how you feel. I'll say things as I see them, everyone who wants to breed, says the same things you did every time you ask why they want to breed, I do not think the last comment of yours is a reason to breed at all, it just isn't, you don't know how your dog is going to react, because she mothers other animals.

I think there are very few reasons for breeding, and very few people who should be breeding, that's just my opinion. I wouldn't have a bitch but I couldn't breed ( and I've said this many times on here) because of the REAL risks involved for mother and pups/kittens, I could have used all the reasons for breeding as you did, but for me none of that is worth the risk of losing my pet. I'm sorry if you think I'm being cruel, or putting you down, I speak my mind about breeding. Unless people have a fantastic specimen of the breed, who has been proven to be that by either showing or working them, who have gone over and above the health test recommended for the breed, who have temperament tested, DNA tested, research the breeding going back through both dam and sires lines, ie what the dams faults/weakness are and what the sire can do to improve them in conformation and temperament, who have a waiting list for years with people over and above the largest litter size then no I personally see no reason for most people to breed, there are 1000's of breeders out there doing it already.

That is my opinion..

As I said I think it's wonderful that you are researching it to do it right I think that is wonderful, most people don't bother, but do I think you should breed your dog? No I personally don't.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_The fact is i am from a family of breeders so i have my own opinions too!_

No you come from a family who have bred from their pets, which is why you think it's OK! That's very different from being responsible breeders with the best interest of the breed at heart and that is what people here are trying to explain in as many different ways as possible but to no avail.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

It's a refreshing change to read that someone intending to breed a non recognised breed is aiming to do it as well as possible.......so well done for trying hard to do your research before you breed.

Here is my advice:

Ensure that both sire and dam have good BVA health test results
Get someone who understands conformation to look at how they are constructed especially fronts ( plenty of Jack Russell's are poorly made in front ) 
Depth of chest , rear and front angulations and firm hocks , check they both have good dentition and bone.
check that the sire is not significantly bigger than the dam and that they both have excellent temperaments.
Never double up on a fault .....if your bitch is weak in one area and your dog has the same fault then look for another stud dog that will compliment her qualities.
Check that they are not too closely related and that there are no hidden genetic 'nasties' like epilepsy in their lines , this may be more difficult to do as an unrecognised breed without a recorded pedigree but go back to their breeders and ask for information on their parents, grandparents etc
Be prepared to take back the pups at any stage, this should be written into the contract that is signed by their new owner and yourself ( I can send you an example of a puppy contract if you wish ) 
Be prepared for a HUGE amount of hard work, your house will stink, you will be unable to leave them unattended from 10 days before the birth to 8 weeks after , you will be forever changing dirty bedding /newspaper/mopping floors/ making up feeds/ washing feed bowls/meeting prospective puppy buyers/answering endless questions on the phone from puppy buyers/socialising puppies etc etc.

I wish you well and applaud your desire to breed as ethically as you can , i wish more folk did !


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Westy said:


> _The fact is i am from a family of breeders so i have my own opinions too!_
> 
> No you come from a family who have bred from their pets - that's very different from being responsible breeders with the best interest of the breed at heart and that is what people here are trying to explain in as many different ways as possible but to no avail.


How dare you make judgments about my family! My gran was a well respected breeder until she retired when she felt she could no longer give the care needed.My gran has case loads of rosettes and trophys for her dogs. There is a right way and a wrong way to speak to anyone, whether you are telling them you think they are wrong or not and you have just spoken to me in the most rude manner, commenting on my family which you know nothing about.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_though my gran and mum have both helped their own pets through pregnancy and labour _


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Bijou said:


> It's a refreshing change to read that someone intending to breed a non recognised breed is aiming to do it as well as possible.......so well done for trying hard to do your research before you breed.
> 
> Here is my advice:
> 
> ...


Thankyou so very much for real advice, not cruel judgment. Writing into the contract about taking pups back at any stage is something that i had not given thought to so thankyou for another item to write down in my notebook. I work from home as an artist/writer and will be taking time off my usual publications when the time comes so that i will have all my days clear. We have a great socialising circle round here for once the pups have their first injection called puppy parties, which is something i have been looking into as it's a new venture. Do you think these are a good idea? Are they safe after only one injection? 
And thankyou again for your last comment. That is all i'm trying to do here, learn as much as possible about breeding as safely as can be done.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Westy said:


> _though my gran and mum have both helped their own pets through pregnancy and labour _


Yes? I am very sorry but my grans dogs may have been breeders but they were also beloved by myself and my brother as children. I have always reffered to my grans dogs as pets? Is it really that uncommon? Would you tell a child no dear these are not pets these are just for breeding. Of course not if your an animal lover. What has what i refer to my grans dogs got to do with you making comments about my family which you have no right to?


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

I am begging people who are commenting on this thread to speak to me in a kind and polite manner as the hounding i am recieving has me in tears.

All i want to do is learn. Why is this so wrong? Why are my reasons for wanting to breed so wrong? I have a strong healthy beautiful dog, which instead of buying from a dodgy breeder would like to share the experience of breeding from. I came here to grow, to learn, to ask questions and seek support. Not to be spoken to cruelly, judged badly and have comments made about my family.

I ask you please if you do not have something constructive to say in a polite and kind manner, please go and join another thread.

I love my dog more than anything on this earth, i do not need to be questioned in my love for her because i want to learn about breeding. Why do you think i'm learning? Because i don't want to do anything wrong, that may harm her that could have been prevented with more time , work and knowledge.

Please just allow the people who are willing to help teach me, to do so. Stop judging me, and leaving hurtful comments. Please.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Kyo said:


> I am begging people who are commenting on this thread to speak to me in a kind and polite manner as the hounding i am recieving has me in tears.
> 
> All i want to do is learn. Why is this so wrong? Why are my reasons for wanting to breed so wrong? I have a strong healthy beautiful dog, which instead of buying from a dodgy breeder would like to share the experience of breeding from. I came here to grow, to learn, to ask questions and seek support. Not to be spoken to cruelly, judged badly and have comments made about my family.
> 
> ...


OK - take a deep breath and chill. Like I said you're going to have to toughen up if you breed. It is a lot harder and emotional than this thread, believe me!

I think the concern is that your posts suggest you really have a lot to learn before embarking on good breeding. Anyone can be a breeder who simply produces pups, but being a good ethical breeders takes time, learning and experience. I owned my breed for years before having a litter. I learnt about the breed, I learned about behaviour and training long before I considered breeding (a good breeder is there to advise puppy owners on training and any issues they may have), I competed with my dogs so not only was I learning, but was able to compare my dogs with others so that, in spite of loving them and thinking the were the best dogs in the world, was able to assess them and see their faults and attributes. Good breeding is a lot more than loving your pet and doing health tests. It is having a good knowledge of the breed, of training, and as well as having the knowledge of a midwife (or midwoof). It requires you to toughen up and put aside your emotions because this is not something your dog chooses, but you choose to put her through it.

I think the concern is that there are so many points in your posts that show you are very much a novice owner, much less a novice breeder.

It is good that you are trying to learn, although you don't seem to want to take advice and come across that you know better.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> OK - take a deep breath and chill. Like I said you're going to have to toughen up if you breed. It is a lot harder and emotional than this thread, believe me!
> 
> I think the concern is that your posts suggest you really have a lot to learn before embarking on good breeding. Anyone can be a breeder who simply produces pups, but being a good ethical breeders takes time, learning and experience. I owned my breed for years before having a litter. I learnt about the breed, I learned about behaviour and training long before I considered breeding (a good breeder is there to advise puppy owners on training and any issues they may have), I competed with my dogs so not only was I learning, but was able to compare my dogs with others so that, in spite of loving them and thinking the were the best dogs in the world, was able to assess them and see their faults and attributes. Good breeding is a lot more than loving your pet and doing health tests. It is having a good knowledge of the breed, of training, and as well as having the knowledge of a midwife (or midwoof). It requires you to toughen up and put aside your emotions because this is not something your dog chooses, but you choose to put her through it.
> 
> ...


I understand that, that is the main concern but i have been clear on the fact that i do not plan on breeding any time soon! I have stated again and again i am willing to take as much time as it takes and put in enough work and effort to learn all i can before i embark on actually breeding. I may be a novice but my family are not and it was extriemly wrong for someone to judge them whilst dealing with me. I may be an emotional person and take things to heart but i am also great in a crisis and when i need my level head i am known for it. I definitly to not think i know it all and each time someone has said something i didnt know or hadnt thought of in that way i have thanked them thourally and taken notes as well as taking all reading suggestions thankfully. Yes i have some opinions too and when someone has the oposing opinion i like to share mine hopefully, or usually it evolves into a healthy debate. But there is so much judgment here. You're wrong for wanting to breed, your reason for breeding are wrong, your opinions are wrong. And i find it hurtful. from the people who have kindly given advice i have half a notepad full of new information, nothing comes from judgment. Thankyou for trying to explain to me where people are coming from i do see there side they don't want another irrisponsible breeder, i just feel the way they go about expressing that is not helping, just hurting. I am trying to be exactly the opposite i am trying to be a responsible pet owner and hopefully one day breeder. I just wish to learn.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kyo said:


> But... that's not what i wrote... That was one tiny aspect of what i wrote. A fun fact about my dog before i realised every tiny syllable i uttered i would be judged negatively on. I wrote a hell of a lot more substantial reasoning with my main reasons being that she was a great example of her breed, her temperment is fantastic, she has zero health problems and i wish to breed from her strong genes rather than the morons around today who breed runts with major issues just to get tiny micro dogs. I am doing everything possible the right way and seem to be being attacked for it. I came here to learn instead of just jumping into it, i came here to seek advice from experienced breeders and hopefully support in my learning as i'm not yet even thinking about setting things in motion. I am feeling extreimly attacked here and i have done nothing wrong. Is wanting to learn about breeding really so bad? I could be like a million others out there who just say **** it i want to breed so im going to but i care about my dog a lot more than that and wanted to learn and grow and when i am ready to seek support. When i asked you about what was a good reason for breeding i gave you in the question my exact reasons for breeding but you quoted some line out of context from somewhere else. Why do people feel they need to make me feel bad? Just because i want to learn how to properly breed my dog before i do something stupid like so many others. There are ways to educate people of the risks without tearing them down and making them feel cruel. Please stop doing so.


Ok, with my objective head on here, you have done no health tests yet, am I right? So how do you know she's 100% healthy? And what would you do if you find out she does have a health issue that could affect any potential progeny?

Back to my bitch, Indie, she has a superb temperament, she's not been shown and I know from experience that her conformation isn't as good as her half sister, who was the bitch I did end up breeding from. I paid several hundred pounds for Indie's health tests, before deciding that really, the responsible thing to do, for her sake, would be to knock it on the head and think again.

The thing is, with numerous breeds like ours, even when we feel that we have something *special* (and let me put the disclaimer in here again, we all own the best dogs in the world, well I do) that actually, there are hundreds of dogs like ours out there, and if I didn't breed on from Tau's daughter, it would be no real loss to the gene pool, she has plenty of relatives out there. It's not like we own the long lost dead end of a fantastic line that can't be brought back, or have a breed so rare in numbers that we MUST think about breeding from them. So although it wouldn't be possibly what we want, sometimes you just have to accept what's best for your dog(s) and that may mean researching other breeders, and deciding not to breed this time round, but take the experience and knowledge you will undoubtedly gain, and possibly look at it in the future.

I think from your initial comments, members (myself included) are/were worried that you may not be able to step away and look at things objectively enough to make a decision based on facts, rather than on your emotions, and what you want to do, and of course, the added *support* of people who think it's a great idea for you to breed, but again, are looking at it from the single point of view of wouldn't it be nice for your bitch to have a litter of fluffy puppies.

Obviously, you've had a sharp learning curve on here tonight, and as rocco33 has said a few times, growing a thick skin is something all breeders need, because you can bet your bottom dollar, no matter how much you think you've done things *right* others will criticise you for things they might have done differently, or just because they can.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, with my objective head on here, you have done no health tests yet, am I right? So how do you know she's 100% healthy? And what would you do if you find out she does have a health issue that could affect any potential progeny?
> 
> Back to my bitch, Indie, she has a superb temperament, she's not been shown and I know from experience that her conformation isn't as good as her half sister, who was the bitch I did end up breeding from. I paid several hundred pounds for Indie's health tests, before deciding that really, the responsible thing to do, for her sake, would be to knock it on the head and think again.
> 
> ...


Yes of course i meant her general health, and yes if her health tests came back negatively i would not breed her, so you are right there.

I have learned a lot here, including it will be a lot longer than i origonally thought until i am well versed enough to even think about breeding and i thank members for helping me see this.

Still i feel some were more judgmental and cruel with the way they expressed their opinions. And it was hurtful and unnecessary such as talking about my family. Form opinions on me from my fumbled words but don't assume about my family members.

I have a lot of notes and a lot of reading to do given to me from kind member here. I am also going to ask my friend who works in the RSPCA if i can be present during the birth's they have, as i have been looking into volunteering here anyway even if it is only cleaning cages or such.

Everyone who gave me an opinion i thanked, even when those opinions were judgemental and hurt me. I think friendly advice goes a lot further than judgmental lectures and could teach someone a lot more, as i have said in almost every post that is what i came here for, to learn.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kyo said:


> Yes of course i meant her general health, and yes if her health tests came back negatively i would not breed her, so you are right there.
> 
> I have learned a lot here, including it will be a lot longer than i origonally thought until i am well versed enough to even think about breeding and i thank members for helping me see this.
> 
> ...


Members on here are passionate about their dogs, and perhaps if you hang around and take a bit of time to get to know people on here, you might forgive them for being so judgemental. It's not infrequent in the breeding section to get people who come along, and refuse to take any advice, and become abusive, in fact it happens a lot more frequently, than those who come along and are good enough to take advice and learn. And you also get people who blatantly lie to try and get advice and help, it's a bit like a soap opera on steroids at times.

If you wanted any info on me about the sort of decisions I'm making for future breeding plans, I'd be more than happy to share my thought processes, what I've got with my girls - I've got a flatcoat bitch I may breed from early 2015, and I'm waiting to see how my young Lab bitch turns out before I make any decisions - I will start both their health testing in the New Year, whether or not I do actually go on to breed from them. You mention your girls lines, and that's one of the reasons you like her, however, unless your dog compliments her, you may not produce pups anything like her, they could be a completely different *type* and character. So you need to learn about things like line breeding, how close is too close, what might happen if you outcross to different lines, how might that affect conformation, temperament etc. Lots and lots of things to think about


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Thankyou...

Yes, and i hope maybe people will get to know me and that i'm just as passionate about my dogs if maybe a little foolish with wording and not so good at taking things to heart :/ 

I can understand people maybe thinking i am a liar or a "troll" I just hope with time they realise that's not me at all. My dogs mean everything to me. I love them with all my heart and always want the best for them.

I'd love to keep in contact with you through your decision with your girls  

Yes, i am friends with my breeder and she still owns lula's mum, dad, aunt, two cousins and grandmother and a border collie who thinks its a tiny jack russell hehe (it's a very busy farm, they also have four cats, two horses and three massive aquariums in the house lol) All beautiful, sturdy, healthy little dogs.

But one thing i am learning is that perhaps my other dog is not the perfect choice to breed as i don't know as much about his lineage. And i know his ears are not the perfect jack ears. He's a very chunky little boy but lights up my life like nothing else with his antics.

I feel like one day i would still love to breed Lula but perhaps its not wise to breed her with Oso even though it seems like the perfect family setting.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kyo said:


> Thankyou...
> 
> Yes, and i hope maybe people will get to know me and that i'm just as passionate about my dogs if maybe a little foolish with wording and not so good at taking things to heart :/
> 
> ...


I started a thread about the decisions I'm starting to make now about Rhuna as regards possibly breeding, I'll dig it out and resurrect it tomorrow, it's about time I updated it although there's not much of an update as yet, just lots of thoughts and ideas, as well as plans for health testing.

Right, I'm off to bed, I have work in the morning, and the girls need a last toilet break before I put them to bed.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Great! hehe okay, should probably do the same. Thanks for talking to me


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Kyo said:


> ... my first Jack Russell [is] Lulabelle! She is a short legged or irish breed as some people refer to them differently,
> a tri colour & absolutely beautiful though very petite. I was complimented by my vet on her being a perfect example
> of her breed and encouraged to show her, though i decided not to as she is a pet.
> 
> ...





Sled dog hotel said:


> The main cautions would be that there tend to be a lot of JRTs that end up in dog rehoming centres, & altho
> you may have homes lined up for some, it's a heavy responsibility [to find] good *forever*-homes for [ALL pups].
> 
> Second caution, to do it all correctly, breeding can be a very expensive and time consuming affair.
> ...





Kyo said:


> Rehoming is the thing i [worry most] about, i'm hoping for a small litter, not only because it would be easier
> on Lula but because then i'll be in contact with all the pups as they will go to family and friends.
> 
> However i've made [decided] that [if she has] more than 5 pups, they'll stay with me. I can't bear the thought
> ...





Firedog said:


> Most insurance policies don't include anything to do with breeding.





Kyo said:


> I will... re read the fine print of my policy to make sure.
> 
> ...i have i lot of money in an emergency account for accidents or unforeseen illnesses and the likes
> for my dogs. So even if the policy doesn't cover me, i have plenty put away





Firedog said:


> ...when I was insured through the KC... I was told that breeding was not included in the policy, & I'd have to
> take out a totally separate policy.





Kyo said:


> Money is by far not my priority, i only discussed it because it was the topic of conversation that came up with people.
> 
> I am aware of the risks of pregnancy... that's why i've stated i intend to research the topic for as long
> as it takes, until i know i myself & my pet are ready.
> ...





Westy said:


> *It's a wonderful thing, watching something you love beyond words bring new life into the world,
> providing of course you have learned enough to support her in her journey.*
> 
> Oh dear. As an ex vet-nurse & breeder for 30 years, I can assure you that's not always the case.
> ...





dandogman said:


> There is a *massive* lack of health tested Jack Russell Terrier's (Primary Lens Luxatation). ...





Kyo said:


> ... i'm not breeding for fluffy puppies, for other people or any of that. I stated in my first post that the main reason
> ...was because Lula [is] an excellent example of her breed... i do not just mean aesthetics, her temperament
> is fantastic, she's skilled & very smart... her training went so well she was invited to do a dog calendar shoot
> by the teacher of my obedience classes.
> ...





Kyo said:


> Of course i would want a knowledgable & experienced person... no matter how long it takes i am here to learn
> everything about the process of breeding before going ahead with any plans.
> 
> ... i think i said before my mum & gran have both had successful litters & i've been present at a lot of births, having breeders
> ...





dandogman said:


> I think you mean Luxating Patella [re] the hind legs. That's pretty common in Jacks, even 'proper' size ones.
> Vets can check these manually easily for you.





Meezey said:


> I applaud your research in to breeding, I am not going to comment on some of your reasons for breeding
> 
> ...with all the research and planning in the world, you cannot guarantee your dogs safety or that of the puppies,
> so that's something you also need to think about are you willing to put your dogs life at risk and those of her pups
> ...


in all of this, Kyo, U have yet to say what U will do if *either dog* does not pass one or more tests.

We can't see the dog's PRA results, joint structures, etc - that's why vets must test our dogs.

We CAN see our dog's adorable face, happy personality, etc - which is why other reputable breed judges, 
not our neighbors nor our vet nor the dog's own breeder, all of whom are either biased or amateurs, 
are good, reliable, *disinterested* judges.

It sounds as tho U intend to breed her, no matter what - which can only raise hackles, as no one here
wants to see dogs bred, who while delightful pets, are not the best possible. 

there are so many surplus dogs, only the very best, tested dogs should be bred - & not only so that 
"i can have one of Pansy's puppies."  We all love our dogs, but that's not a good enuf reason. 


Kyo said:


> If my reasons for breeding (carrying on a good strong line..., wanting to breed for a pup from a line i know
> to be healthy & not [miniature] & experiencing it with my beloved pet which CAN be a beautiful experience,
> not always full of danger...
> 
> What is a good reason for breeding?


To improve the breed - to produce pups who do not merely *equal the quality of the parents,
but hopefully & significantly, exceed it, setting a new benchmark.*

Every dog of any breed should have a board-certified canine opthalmologist examine her or him [in Ur case,
BOTH her AND him] & provide a certificate, stating that the dog is free of heritable eye-defects per exam.
Kennel clubs or breed clubs bring in DVMs to do this on a wholesale basis, for as little as $15-usa per dog.
It DOES require dilated pupils - be prepared to keep the dog indoors, until the eyes recover, OR protect the dog's
eyes from light for about 4 to 5 hours, post-exam. [A hood works well, for a small dog; carry the dog, so that
s/he doesn't trip, bang into things, etc.]

I'd also want to check with a breed-judge of JRTs, if need be, outside the breed ring - NOT the breeder;
a knowledgeable 3rd-party, with no interest in the outcome.

How TALL are both dogs at the withers? Will they fit in a fox earth? Can they U-turn underground?
That's part of breed standard, too.

AVAR's list of heritable problems in JRTs:


> *Parson Russell Terrier*:
> 20, 78, 123, 186, 206, 235, 330


20. *Ataxia:* 
incoordination associated with a variety of central and peripheral nervous system abnormalities, 
spinal cord instability or inner ear disorders. This condition is seen in many breeds & with episodes 
of spasmodic muscle activity in the Parson Russell Terrier.

Spinocerebellar Ataxia
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Late-Onset Ataxia:
Late Onset ataxia | Animal Health Trust

JRTs / Parsons are potential carriers of BOTH forms.

78. *Deafness:* unable to hear, due to many different causes.
*BAER test.*

123. *Factor X deficiency: *
a rare clotting disorder; an autosomal trait (affects both sexes).
*Blood test.*

186. *Lens luxation: *
the lens in the eye is displaced, in an abnormal position.
*DNA test - $65-usa from this lab:*

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

206. *Myasthenia gravis:* 
a syndrome characterized by muscle fatigue due to an autoimmune disease which produces chemical abnormalities 
of the muscles & nerves. In some cases, an enlarged esophagus [megaesophagus] develops, & causes 
regurgitation of food.

01 Myasthenia gravis - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

*Scroll down to see a pharmacologic test - *
Myasthenia Gravis UC Davis Neurology/Neurosurgery

235. *Patellar luxation:*
a condition where the knee caps slide in and out of place.
*Manual manipulation plus radiographs.*
Other radiographs taken at the same appt can confirm the dog's hip / femur joints are snug, the socket
is well-shaped, & there are no signs of arthritic early-changes.

It can be medial or lateral - 
http://www.cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_81/81mast.htm‎

330. *von Willebrand's disease: *
a bleeding disorder caused by defective blood-platelet function (an autosomal trait affecting both sexes). 
Occurs in 59 dog breeds.
*Blood test.*
.
.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

I did... Sleeping Lion asked what i would do if their tests were not good and i said i would not breed them...

Once i had calmed down from feeling attacked and upset i also admitted their was a lot more research to do than i had originally thought and that i had learned a lot from some of the advice given.

But i did answer that question to sleeping lion after i was calmer and we talked. I said if the necessary tests came back with negative news i would not breed from my dog. Sorry if you missed it and thankyou for all advice given.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Kyo said:


> I did... Sleeping Lion asked what i'd do if their tests were not good, & i said i would not breed them.
> 
> Once i'd calmed down from feeling attacked & upset, i also admitted there was a lot more research to do
> than i'd originally thought, & that i had learned a lot from some of the advice given.
> ...


oh, i am sorry - i did miss it, thanks, hun. :yesnod: Glad to know U aren't set on it, "no matter what".

I know that owners think they can "get another" by breeding their favorite dog, but it doesn't really work
that way; every litter, & every pup, is a new roll of the genetic & experiential dice. No pup will be a clone,
even if the pup is *literally a clone,* cuz each pup has a whole new set of life experiences - different 
pups that frame her or him in the uterus, a different dam, the litter isn't the same size or same sex-ratio,
the house they're born into doesn't have the same number / ages of human residents [the kids are older /
the adults are older, the kids are grown...], the *world has changed* since the original pup was born,
in THEIR litter, to THEIR dam, in HER home...

Check out the stories of ppl who have gotten literally-cloned dogs; the woman who cloned her BC-mix,
Missy, was a sad but illustrative example. Her cloned-dog didn't act the same - looked different; WAS different.
She wanted a dog who looked identical, & ACTED like her loved, dead pet - but that's impossible. This is a new
version of that dog's DNA - with a new set of life-experiences.

U can breed Ur dogs, assuming they are evaluated as genuinely good specimens by a disinterested eye,
& they also pass all their heritable-problems tests - but please don't do it to get "another Lulu". 
U'll be disappointed; U have to plan for, & hope for, pups who are hopefully BETTER than dam or sire;

All the flaws in each dog, must be covered by compensating excellences by the opp-sex partner; if his head
is a wee bit blunt, with a muzzle a shade too-broad, hers must be perfect. If her ear-set is a bit off, his ears
must be gorgeous - set, length, opening, dropped tip, every detail.

Does that make sense? U just happen to have 2 dogs of the *same breed* & of *opposite sex - *
that's convenient, but it doesn't mean either is the best possible mate for Ur other dog; U could double-up on flaws,
physical, visible flaws; or OTOH, each one could have completely different flaws, but neither dog successfully 
compensates for the imperfections of the other.

How similar are their proportions - legs: femur length, hock length, depth of thigh, elbow to dewclaw length...
how about tail set on each dog? Alike? Different?

U go over each attribute of each dog, just that way; U also calculate COI, *C*oefficient of *I*nbreeding.
Ur dogs aren't listed by the KC, so U can't use their nifty auto-calculating page where U enter both dogs' 
registered names, click, & BOOM - there's the COI. U have to do it the hard way. ::Shrug:

ARTICLE about COI & its importance in JRTs - 
Miniature Jack Russell Terriers - Irish

Calculating COI -

A Beginner's Guide to COI | Dog Breed Health

.
.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

No that's okay it's easily missed.

My original hope before i had any knowledge was that the pups would get lula's phyisical attributes with Oso's spunky personality. I wouldn't want to clone any dog i don't think, not even lula, it would feel wrong. Though thankyou for the interesting topic to look at.

They are similar build, both petite however Oso is a lot chunkier than lula, his legs are a little thicker where as lula's are very defined. Their tails are both well rounded over their hind quarters and around 3 and a bit inches, Oso's being on the slightly higher end closer to 4. Neither are docked as i know this is popular or was popular for a long time. Oso's ear's are not well set, instead of the usual folded over pyramid, one of his ears stands straight, and both are on the larger side of the breed standard. Both are not very but quite muscular but this is just due to running at the beach and swimming so regularly. I think on my next visit to the vet i will ask for her to properly take all their measurments and explain the process and how to see the difference in proportion to each dog.

Thankyou a lot for that link, another helpful tool.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Oh and it's funny you should mention muzzle size because they are exactly as you used an example. Oso's muzzle is a bit broad, where as lula's is petite and in good proportion.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Kyo said:


> ...funny you should mention muzzle size - they're exactly as [in Ur] example.
> 
> Oso's muzzle is a bit broad, whereas Lula's is petite & in good proportion.


Part of that will be *gender - * male dogs have heavier forefaces than females, & larger backskulls, too; 
U have to look at other male JRTs of a similar size, & compare their heads - foreface length, depth of
the muzzle at the eye in profile, total length of the skull from nose-leather to occipital protuberance, how
long & how wide is the backskull...

Then look at other females - is Lula's head excessively dainty? Compared to other bitches, is her backskull
in proportion to her foreface, or too heavy? Is she jowly? Shark-mouthed? What's her bite, scissors or level?

Do both of them have ALL their teeth [42]?

Does her neck have a slight crest, with good muscle - or just a straight, slanted line widening to her
shoulders?...

bed time!... C U tomorrow. :001_smile:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I too am glad that you are going the right way about researching the health tests needed and have come here for HELPFUL advice. I absolutely adore JRT's but at the moment only have a half breed, being a Chihuahua x JRT, he is the most intelligent and wonderful little chap ever. I did have a full JR and she lived to eleven, no health problems ever and usually a fit active breed from what I've read. I don't see many where I live in Essex, wish there were more because people are missing out big time, lol. 

My Mal had an unexpected litter of eight pups, everything went 'by the book', so I was lucky and so was she. She whelped exactly on day 63, took care of all the pups with the skills of a pro and no problems with any of the raising. I did have a daughter who took turns with me on keeping watch (24/7) for the first three weeks in case she laid on them, accidentally smothering them - which on just one occasion she nearly did - it only takes the one and a pup is dead within minutes. Weaned all pups onto a purely raw diet at three weeks and homed them very carefully to thoroughly vetted homes, which I still keep in contact with five years on. The most dreadful part for us (because there were no complications prior) was letting them go and these were large puppies which were hard work, lol. Eighteen months after they left one was killed in a traffic accident, I can't begin to explain the guilt you yourself feel at letting him go to the home that 'allowed' this to happen, it still haunts us all on every birthday that we celebrate with the existing pups. The pain was unbearable and worse was that I had the choice of two homes for him - you just never forgive yourself for choosing the 'wrong one'. Six months after that I took a pup back, the owners had a baby and couldn't cope, something they assured me would not happen. I re homed him to a wonderful home and keep in contact still, he is now much loved and going nowhere. The pup I kept turned out to have severe hip dysplasia and at two and three years of age had double hip replacements. Their parents, at the time, were both not hip scored and had passed this on to Flynn, although as of yet none of the other pups appear to have this problem. I own mum and dad and had them later tested in order to have some clue as to the possible future of the pups, I had not known they had mated at the time and wasn't told due to it being a slip mating and the person present thinking that wouldn't produce a pregnancy - long story. 
As you are well aware its not all a 'bed of roses' you have no control over the raising of your pups once they have gone, all you can do is remain friendly and keep in touch. I was livid when my pup was returned but kept that to myself purely for his sake, in a way I was glad they had been honest and brought him back to me and by staying friendly and in touch it would have been very difficult for them not to inform me. 

Mine was not planned, went well but I had some problems later on, with just the one litter in my 30+ years of dog ownership, unlucky in some respects though lucky in others. I was terrified on the whelping day, cried for most of it because although Kali handled it all very well I felt incredibly guilty that she had to do it at all. My pups are all very much loved, the boy I kept is truly the light of my life and I don't regret for one second that he is here, although during his operations I felt differently at times. 

I hope everything goes very very well for you and would dearly love to know if and when your lovely girl has puppies, or any help you may require beforehand. 
Hugs to your babies, they are adorable and welcome all three of you to the forum.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Thankyou very much for sharing you experience with me, the good and the bad. I am deeply sorry for what happened to that por pup of yours, i can understand completely how you feel as when i lived with my ex fiance we had a beautiful dog and left her with someone one day while we went to glasgow christmas shopping together. We spent the day happily and bought our dog a few good little gifts too, only to return home to a house full of people screaming IT WASNT HER FAULT! THE DOG GOT OUT. Ilooked to the girl i had left my precous dog with who was surrounded by people ready to jump and found out that my lovely girl had been let out unsupervised and had been run over by a car, which didn't even stop or slow down. It's something i live with to this day so i empathise with you sincerely and can only tell you what family told me, Truly it wasn't you to blame, you put your trust into another human being and they let you and your dog down, just be sure wherever she is now, the dog does not blame you.

I will of course keep you updated with both my journey to learn about this process and should the day come when i put my newfound knowledge to action and breed you are more than welcome to experience it with me as i will keep a detailed log. Thankyou again,


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi,
This is only my own take on this.....but with so many unwanted puppies and dogs in shelters through no fault of there own,why produce more?
Gill


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Canarie said:


> Hi,
> This is only my own take on this.....but with so many unwanted puppies and dogs in shelters through no fault of there own,why produce more?
> Gill


Hi Gill,

I think this is a really valid question, possibly a whole other discussion and something I've seen debated numerous times over the years. There's nothing unlawful about breeding dogs, lots of people can and do make a living from it, you can cut a lot of corners, and churn so many pups out to make enough cash, certainly, otherwise there wouldn't be dog supermarkets supplied by unscrupulous breeders. However, if people weren't prepared to learn how to breed well, and by that, I mean understanding as fully as possible about health, temperament, conformation and ability, using that knowledge to produce the *best* possible pups to hopefully stack the odds in their favour to live a long and happy life, where does that leave us? If the people who really cared, stopped breeding, and believe me many have cut their breeding plans right back as it is with the financial climate the way it is right now, then we wouldn't have any choice as far as supporting good breeders. I find it hard to source a nicely bred Labrador litter, there are many I wouldn't touch for various reasons, so spend quite a bit of time trying to put puppy enquiries in touch with what I would call *good* breeders. Those are people who sell under contract, as well as breeding for health, temperament etc, so that their pups are in touch with them, or their owners are, and should the need ever arise they will take the pup/dog back, and rehome, even if it means buying a pup/dog back at any stage of its life. There is the argument that by breeding, they are taking away the place of a rescue dog as well, and again, whilst I understand that, as I've said, good breeders restrict the number of litters they breed, in comparison with what else is churned out, whether registered or not, it will be a very small percentage of what is bred overall. And the problem is, if we all stopped trying to do our best for our chosen breeds, how long would it take before the numbers went down, or at least the quality within the breeds went down? There are vast numbers of puppy farmed Labradors, is that all you want left out there? Because if the good breeders stopped breeding, you can be sure the puppy farmers would just rub their hands with glee and keep more breeding stock back.

Hope that answers your question, sorry it's a bit windy but it's not as simple a question as it might seem on the face of it


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I think it's great you're doing research and doing most things along the right tracks, health testing gets a big thumbs up from me! The only thing that does send up red flags for me is it's highly unlikely you have 2 dogs who match each other conformationally, most people spend ages researching a proven dog to suit their maiden bitch - that way you know roughly what characteristics the male is likely to throw and you can try and improve on your dogs short comings. 
And if you did breed from these 2 unknown dogs you have no idea what is lurking in their genes as they are from unhealth tested parents and grand parents, most pet breeders say they are vet checked which means a vet checks to see if they have 4 legs, 2 eyes and a heartbeat and nothing more! If you do throw a litter of pups all with health problems like luxating patella etc the puppy owners could come back at you for future vet bills so do be aware. 

I also think it's great your family members say they want a puppy but if I had a pound for everyone who says they want a puppy out of a friend/family members dog then when it actually came down to it backed out, I'd be rich! What would you do if they did? and are they all suitable homes for a high energy terrier? 
You can't keep a whole litter of pups as it's not fair on them and often they don't get on, especially terriers and it's 10 times the work training them! So you need to consider all options! 
I'd also get a new vet - I have worked for years at vet practices and not one of them would ever condone breeding from an un health tested dog or give their go ahead to do so when there is such a huge surplus of dogs in the UK at the mo and also not give you a heads up on the risks you take! And all those family members of yours who want a puppy could rescue a pup instead, so your pet dog needs to be a cracker to justify breeding imo. 

Have you got a conformational shot of both your dogs? - it's very hard to see from those pics anything at all!
And if you think this post is harsh it's only because alot of people on here have to deal with 'pet' breeders and the fallout from them everyday at rescues, it's heart breaking. 
And as for the risks it can go wrong so you do need help around from someone who knows as it could mean the difference of life and death for mum and pups. I helped with a c-section on a lovely little JRT who was a small one too, the pups got stuck so she was rushed into the vets. Midway through she died under the anaesthetic, we did resuscitate the pups which all had to be hand reared, they lost 3 but the other 4 were fine - they often have large litters so saying you hope she has a small one doesn't always pan out I'm afraid!!

JRT are one of the most popular breeds in the UK so there is no shortage at all of people producing pups so you have to ask yourself do you want to add to that number and are you happy to loose your bitch as it can happen? It's OK to say nature does it's thing and animals have instincts, yes they do to a point, but not always and often they need help as they are not wild animals and often have conformation which makes it hard for them to give birth. I used to breed suffolk sheep and in 1 year alone I had 40 ewes to lamb and only 1 did on it's own, all the rest needed my intervention or they'd die - they are domestic and have lost most of what their wild cousins have! 
An animal doesn't understand at all what is going on and does not have the same view as people on breeding as they do not connect the act of mating with the outcome of pups!! They do not need to be bred from at all - my 2 gorgeous terriers are often stopped when out and asked if I'd breed from them, even when I've been in the waiting room at the vets for their jabs folk have asked as they are beautiful, one is a honey coloured patterdale mix the other a longer legged small JRT, and do have very good conformation and are good ratters, but I wouldn't ever consider risking either of them and they are both spayed and very happy!!


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Well to me changing vet's, it won't happen. I would perhaps consider taking on a second vet from another practice but the vet i go to is the best where i live, she is well known and highly sought out.

I'm repeating myself a little again but once more, my vet at no point urged/coaxed/pushed me to breed. I see her regulalrly and she often remarks on Lula being a lovely example of her breed. Also My vet was one of the people who urged me to take a year and learn all about what the breeding process entails in general and specifically to my breed. At no point did she nor i can say in good conscience would ever encourage me to breed my dog haphazardly and not health test both her and chosen sire.

I have also already stated that i am learning now about the reasons why my dog may not be the best sire. So most of the questions i've already answered. All i am doing right now is trying to learn.

Oh i forgot this part sorry. As to why i would not go to one of the many breeders around me? Bad Breeding. 99% of the breeders i encounter locally are breeding for "miniature" dogs not caring about health problems that this brings. I widened my search from my local area and struggled to find any i was happy with and most i was very sad about. I saw at one place puppies only 6 weeks old who were already away from mum and being sold. i saw hind legs curled in under them, tails that not once pricked upright snotty noses and eyes. I left crying and ended up reporting them to the RSPCA through a friend who works there.

Completely opposite to this i want to learn how to breed properly, for health and temperement and so many new things i'm learning about my beloved breed just after even a few days. It's amazing how detailed it all is and wonderfully interesting. My reasons at first may have come across as selfish and immature which i was explaned to by kind members who calmed me down when i felt attacked. But since i have begun learning about all the inherit problems with my breed and all the new problems caused by cross breeding and again this obsession with "miniature" I am truly finding myself intrigued beyond what i thought i would be. My gran was a breeder, my mum not so much though she did breed successfully, just never went on to continue, i always thought it wasn't for me i just wanted my pets, but the idea that perhaps my beloved pet could possibly birth a litter of the next generation of jack russell, stronger healthier yet hopefully with her beautiful temperement? It's an amazing thing to think of.

I still have a lot of learning to do, but i honestly feel like i would rather breed a litter and know their exact lineage than buy from one of the people around here and end up with a sickly dog that i might have to endure the heart ache of losing simply because of bad breeding.

The risks involved in a pregnancy are one of my big worries, and one of the things i wish to learn the most about because Lula is everything to me and although i would be proud beyond words for her to be able to have her own young ones, if i just don't feel confident in my own knowledge and the experience of the people i have to help me, i just couldnt do it.

Uhm... i'm trying to remember what else there was...

Oh rehoming! Yes, i am confident in the people who have said should i choose to breed all going well, they are very interested in pups as they are close family i see every day and of course my vet who has made her interest clear. All of the both already have one or more dog they are devoted to and would only be adding one more to their furry family. Preparing my self for the situation in which i would have to seek out loving homes for other pups is daunting i admit and having heard many experiences and advice from people on here i know it is something i can never really fully control, though all i can say is i would do my very best to give pups to loving forever homes and have it contracted during the that time that should they not be able for any reason to keep the pup it should be returned to me so none of them would ever end up in a shelter like so many poor jack's who's owners just don't realise how active these little dogs are. to me it was one of the reasons i chose the breed, i love nothing more than running on the beach with my babys.

I think i've covered all the questions asked now... If not feel free to ask more, just please be kind and polite. Judging and lecturing gets people nowhere especially with me.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Half way through making a cuppa, but one other thing to think about, is that as a breeder of pedigree breeds, I can make use of the KC's registration system and place endorsements on pups, which mean that unless people wanting to breed on from the pups meet my requirements, which include health testing and campaigning them *successfully*, then the endorsements will remain in place and if they did breed, they couldn't then register the pups with the KC. Whilst I hope that never happens, and I'm pretty confident that none of the puppy owners of Tau's pups would ever go behind my back and breed in any case, that in itself is a useful deterrent, and puts off a lot of time wasters when they see the litter as advertised 'endorsed and sold under contract' etc. 

And very, very quickly, I know you are worried about your bitch, but you really have to, if you consider breeding, be made of stern stuff. My girl needed an emergency c-section, and I was absolutely beside myself, with feelings of guilt and remorse for choosing that path for her in case she didn't come through. At that point you don't even worry about the pups, you just want your girl to make it and it is the emotional equivalent of being put on a rack and tortured, not just for the duration of the section, but even now when I look at Tau, I feel lucky to have her with me here, and glad she can't blame me for putting her through that section. 

Off to get my cuppa, and a bit of lemon drizzle cake with ice cream


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Yes i think a lot of my work is emotional ahead of me. Trying to be a stronger person and have the strength Lula will need if she does have a litter. The last thing i want is for her to be distressed simple because i am. Lots of work to do, not only reading but working on me, me thinks :3

Ooh! enjoy your cake! nom!


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I just wanted to pick up on a few points that I dont think have been covered and apologies if they have

Firstly it isnt unfortunate that they arent KC registered, Jack Russells are not registered by the UK KC as a breed and can't be registered. 

You talk about good lines, do you actually have reliable pedigrees for both dogs? Is there a Jack Russell database that you can use to see weather the dogs lines compliment one another and also to look back at past health.

Lastly you said about your vet saying she is a good example of the breed, 
does your vet have judging experience? able to see the correct confirmation and movement 
She/He mentioned showing but you would only have been able to show in companion shows or the specific Jack Russell Terrier Club of GB shows
Infact I would highly recommend going along to or entering one of their shows so you could get an outsiders opinion on your dog/s especially from people who have written the 'breed standard' 

With the rescue situation as it is now we really should only be breeding from the best of the best dogs.
I have two lovely males here, both show dogs with good confirmation, both qualifying for Crufts each year of their lives and getting results there also. 
I have been asked to use my elder boy at stud twice. I declined for numerous reasons, many of which have been covered by the posts in this thread.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

No problem 

As i said before i know Lula's parents and grandparents i am good friends with their owner, who was my breeder. She has kindly offered to help me in any way if the time comes i wish to go forward. I said earlier when i was talking about Oso possibly not being the perfect dog to breed with that i do not know as much about his background and only time would tell if i could find all this out for him.

And as to my Vet, again she only meant the family shows locally, because Lula is a whizz at agility and obedience and would have great fun at them.

As to her experience, i know she is a qualified veterinary doctor and also shows her own dogs in her spare time, She is also a regular at Crufts with her Border Collies. I can't really tell you anything about her knowledge on judging or any of that because i'm not her. In general when a highly thought of licensed proffesional tells me something, i tend to believe it. She is an animal lover and dedicates her life to animals, i'm sure she would never tell me something to harm my pet. Yes i am aware some vets have given bad advice but i am confident in my vets knowledge and ability, not only because she is highly thought of in our area but because i know her well, from tending to my families pets. We've discussed it many times, each with her encouraging me to learn about all i can and if i choose to go ahead she will be there to support me. Along with my Breeder (of Lula) who also kindly offers her help and support.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm just thinking out loud, as they are a FCI registered breeders for JRT why would you not look at contacting them and giving them pictures of your dogs looking for honest critiques about them? There will be breeders in Ireland? So not to far away IKC

Jack Russell Terrier Club of Ireland | Irish Kennel Club


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Thankyou for the suggestion, i will look into it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Canarie said:


> ...with so many unwanted pups & dogs in shelters through no fault of their own,why produce more?





Sleeping_Lion said:


> There's nothing unlawful about breeding dogs, lots of people can and do make a living from it, you can cut
> a lot of corners, & churn so many pups out to make enough cash, certainly, otherwise there wouldn't be
> dog supermarkets supplied by unscrupulous breeders.
> 
> ...





AlexArt said:


> ...it's great you're doing research... health testing gets a big thumbs up from me!
> 
> [One red flag] for me is that it's highly unlikely you have 2 dogs who match each other conformationally,
> most ppl spend ages researching a proven dog to suit their maiden bitch - that way you know roughly
> ...


Definitely need CONFORMATION photos - the most important pose is side-on, level with the dog's forechest
or midway between withers & elbow - head in profile, tail as normally carried.

Another good photo is also side-on & level with the dog, but a close-up of head only, in profile.
This shows eye / foreface / backskull proportions, flews, bite to a degree, arch of neck, any throaty 
or turkey-wattle tendencies, etc.

A face-on, dog-level photo shows earset, eye shape & expression, etc; the dog should be standing.

A free-standing UNposed photo of the dog's rear, again at dog level, shows the structure of the rear legs,
& tail-set, if the tail is below the spine's level. [If the tail is carried high, it hides the tail-set in this POV.]

A picnic table, grooming bench, etc, are good, level surfaces to stand the dog on for photos, so that U can
get dog-level pictures without lying on the ground. 

If both dogs had parents with ZERO health-screening [elbows, eyes, hips / knees, PRA, PLL, etc...]
U are working from a completely blind start. They'll have to have every possible test - there's no "clear"
in either dog's genetics.

It is unlikely that these 2 dogs are the best complements / compensators for each other's flaws. That they're both
JRTs is nice, but they could still be highly dissimilar in some traits or structures - rear assembly, shoulder
layback, coat texture, eye or skull shape, & so on. They may have mutual flaws - or shared weaknesses - or 
both be carriers of a recessive hereditary problem. U can't know the invisible without testing. 

Their physical appearance is visible - SOME things are very easily fixed & minor [markings]; OTher things are
very, very persistent, & almost impossible to "delete".

A case in point: Boxers are a so-called "head" breed.  Sorry, but there must be a whole dog, to have 
a DOG - with a pulse, a working brain, etc.
Still... in the 1960s, there was a male Boxer, call-name "Johnny", who was a flashy deep-red with a gorgeous head.
He *Won & Won & Won!...* everywhere.
Then he was *bred & bred & bred... * to dam*-near every bitch.

His crucial flaw? *He had a very straight front.*

That dreadful vertical front still haunts American Boxers; many walk like Hackney ponies, it's an awful gait,
like a goose-step in the front, with the rear moving normally. His "beautiful head" was set on a dreadful fore,
& over 50-years later, not only is he in virtually every dog's pedigree, his terrible forehand is alive & well. :nonod:


AlexArt said:


> ...nature does it's thing & animals have instincts... but... often they need help as they are not wild animals
> & [their] conformation [can make whelping difficult]. [SNIP]
> 
> An animal doesn't understand at all what is going on and does not have the same view as people on breeding
> ...


Ur dog isn't going to feel "unfulfilled" if she's never bred; U & Lula aren't going to bond deeply as women do,
reflecting on their own childbirths & their children, the shared experience of breastfeeding, reminisce about their
infant ways & toddler joys & horrors.

She's a dog; YOU CAN EMPATHIZE with her labor-pains, devotion [or not] to her pups, rearing hassles - but she isn't
another human; she won't miss or wonder about what she hasn't had.

Ppl who lose a leg often waste vast amounts of bitterness on what they CANNOT do; they imagine futures,
with vs without their leg. DOGS who are amputees just get on with it; they don't look back, nor imagine ahead;
they are in the here & now.

She won't hate U for not "giving her the chance to raise a family".  Much as they love their pups,
i've never seen a dam who didn't heave a sigh of relief when the last pup left.

I'd also second the vote against "mum, da, AND BABY" as Ur pets; terriers don't share homes well, even unrelated,
& sire, dam, AND pup is especially fraught. They are too much alike in size & strength, with too much shared history
to share a home compatibly, IME. Among the worst in-home fighting i've seen has been same-sex, in-home fights;
siblings [2 bros, 2 sisters] or dam / daughter // sire / son, in the same household.

To suggest U'd keep any "extras" for life is pretty crazy - young dogs do best as only children, with all the teaching
[socialization, habituation, basic manners, housetraining] on ONE pup at a time; the other dogs are all adults, 
the one baby gets the lion's share of time & effort.

U can't possibly give 2 or 3 pups the same quality rearing as U do one. Another person MUST help - taking on
the sole responsibility to socialize, habituate, train, & housetrain "their" puppy. At least, that's my experience.

Siblings reared with other sibs are always more attached to their sib, than to humans. Over-atttachment is common.
Sibs who scream, howl, escape, scratch or chew floors / doors, etc, when their conjoined-twin is absent, are many;
sibs who MUST go along on every vet-trip, walk, potty-outing to the garden, & so on. They're a royal pain. :nonod:
But it's not their fault, either.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oooh, I'm afraid they don't always know what they're doing.
> How to put it politely, your girl may actually not want to be mated, so you may be surprised if she behaves
> completely out of character... [SNIP]
> 
> ...


Definitely!

Dogs who live together may have zero interest in an allowed mating - of course, the same dogs if separated,
might move heaven & earth to mate if U DIDN'T want them to breed, :lol:.

But i've seen any number of bitches, as well as [fewer] males, who didn't want to breed a housemate.
Familiarity often *doesn't* breed anything, in dogs.


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Yes, all these things have been brought to my attention and all have been noted down in my notes to further explore and research.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Westy said:


> ... can I politely suggest that you contact your bitch's retired breeder and hopefully go and visit to
> *see your bitch's dam and any other possible relatives*.
> 
> The same goes for the dog that you... plan to use...
> ...





Kyo said:


> i have stated that my breeder [will] be an active part in my dogs' breeding come the time.


That's not the same thing. 

Westie is saying, GO SEE just as many ancestors of Ur dogs as possible - particularly parents & grands,
In The Flesh.

If U can see aunts / uncles, that's gravy - but U really do need to SEE parents & grands; they will tell U more
about what might be thrown in a litter, than looking only at this potential dam & that possible sire.

Since U have no health-tests, & must test for everything lacking any known clears, U really do need the info
that visiting their parents & grands will provide; that's a total of 8 dogs, it shouldn't be that daunting, is it?

Structurally & particularly re temp, they will be very illuminating. How many have rear problems, gait issues,
skip when walking [patella], post when standing [hip], pace when they should WALK [rear pain]...?
These are indicators. :thumbsup:


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

I see the parents and grandmother as regularly as i see jen, I usually take Lula to play with them for an afternoon visit.

I know other family members own aunts uncles and cousins, which granted i do not see in the flesh, so i will ask if i may meet with them and look for any of the indicators you have mentioned to me and ask lots of questions.

Oh also, it's kinda night time right now, but i will try tomorrow to take proper pictures in the suggested poses to post and will be glad of any opinions politely offered.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just a thought - as you know the owners of many of your dogs' relatives, do you think any of them might agree to health test their dogs in order to give you a more accurate picture of the health of the line?

Of course, this would be of little benefit to them, but perhaps you could offer to pay to get tests done. Probably not the tests requiring anaesthetic but maybe DNA / eye / patella tests?


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Colette said:


> Just a thought - as you know the owners of many of your dogs' relatives, do you think any of them might agree to health test their dogs in order to give you a more accurate picture of the health of the line?
> 
> Of course, this would be of little benefit to them, but perhaps you could offer to pay to get tests done. Probably not the tests requiring anaesthetic but maybe DNA / eye / patella tests?


Actually... that's a really good idea. I'm pretty sure that lula's mum and dad had basic health testing but i need to confirm it with jen, who i'm gonna try to go up and visit next weekend. But offering to pay for health tests for the others, i would gladly do that if it would have a positive impact.


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## jacks456 (Oct 17, 2013)

Hi - your Jack Russells are lovely and sounds like they have personalities to match. I think, if you've researched really well (as it sounds like you are doing), that you have homes lined up for the puppies (and are prepared to take any back if need be) and you're prepared for any heartache along the way then I really wish you the best. Jack Russells are wonderful dogs. There are breeds out there that regardless of the health tests available have problems due to being bred to conform to a crazy 'standard', have to have their babies via c-section etc. Dogs are supposed to be bred to either better the breed in the show ring or in the field but not everyone wants a dog bred to an extreme look or super high working drive. If homes are lined up, the parents have good natures and are health tested I can't understand why pet breeders get such negative feedback. I myself have had a dog from a pet Jack Russell litter and she was the best I could of ever had. I know my post will get ripped apart so I'm off to run for cover!! xxx


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

jacks456 said:


> Hi - your Jack Russells are lovely and sounds like they have personalities to match. I think, if you've researched really well (as it sounds like you are doing), that you have homes lined up for the puppies (and are prepared to take any back if need be) and you're prepared for any heartache along the way then I really wish you the best. Jack Russells are wonderful dogs. There are breeds out there that regardless of the health tests available have problems due to being bred to conform to a crazy 'standard', have to have their babies via c-section etc. Dogs are supposed to be bred to either better the breed in the show ring or in the field but not everyone wants a dog bred to an extreme look or super high working drive. If homes are lined up, the parents have good natures and are health tested I can't understand why pet breeders get such negative feedback. I myself have had a dog from a pet Jack Russell litter and she was the best I could of ever had. I know my post will get ripped apart so I'm off to run for cover!! xxx


Pet breeder don't, irresponsible breeders do........

Not all show dogs are bred to an " extreme look".

So you think all pet breeders get negative feed back but in the same breath lump all show and working breeders in the same bracket..

People aren't against "pet" breeders on here they are against irresponsible, breeders and I don't see anyone on here calling the OP irresponsible?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

jacks456 said:


> Hi - your Jack Russells are lovely and sounds like they have personalities to match. I think, if you've researched really well (as it sounds like you are doing), that you have homes lined up for the puppies (and are prepared to take any back if need be) and you're prepared for any heartache along the way then I really wish you the best. Jack Russells are wonderful dogs. There are breeds out there that regardless of the health tests available have problems due to being bred to conform to a crazy 'standard', have to have their babies via c-section etc. Dogs are supposed to be bred to either better the breed in the show ring or in the field but not everyone wants a dog bred to an extreme look or super high working drive. If homes are lined up, the parents have good natures and are health tested I can't understand why pet breeders get such negative feedback. I myself have had a dog from a pet Jack Russell litter and she was the best I could of ever had. I know my post will get ripped apart so I'm off to run for cover!! xxx


You obviously don't understand what a breed standard is if you're describing it as 'crazy' - it's there because it's a description of how a dog should appear, not just for looks, although breeds were definitely developed because people had a preference for a certain *type* of dog, but they were bred for functionality. There is a reason they are a certain size and shape, healthy conformation means you will have a healthy dog that functions as it should do. You're quite right in your point that some breeds have been taken to the extreme for the show ring, but does that mean we just abandon all scruples and say it's ok for anyone to just breed regardless? Or do we try and get back to breeding for a balanced dog overall?

Unfortunately, as lovely as your jack russell may have been, that's one pup, from one litter. If you'd come on here and said I've had twenty pups in my life time, ten were from *pet bred* litters, ten were from show bred health tested parents, and in my experience the differences were, x, y and z, you would have a valid argument. But basing an argument on what will be an emotive issue, ie you are bound to think your pet was the best JR ever, without any other relating data, is really not a good overall comparison, because there is nothing to compare except your opinion of other dogs not any actual ownership.

And besides, I own the best dogs in the world, so it's a moot point.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You obviously don't understand what a breed standard is if you're describing it as 'crazy' - it's there because it's a description of how a dog should appear, not just for looks, although breeds were definitely developed because people had a preference for a certain *type* of dog, but they were bred for functionality. There is a reason they are a certain size and shape, healthy conformation means you will have a healthy dog that functions as it should do. You're quite right in your point that some breeds have been taken to the extreme for the show ring, but does that mean we just abandon all scruples and say it's ok for anyone to just breed regardless? Or do we try and get back to breeding for a balanced dog overall?
> 
> Unfortunately, as lovely as your jack russell may have been, that's one pup, from one litter. If you'd come on here and said I've had twenty pups in my life time, ten were from *pet bred* litters, ten were from show bred health tested parents, and in my experience the differences were, x, y and z, you would have a valid argument. But basing an argument on what will be an emotive issue, ie you are bound to think your pet was the best JR ever, without any other relating data, is really not a good overall comparison, because there is nothing to compare except your opinion of other dogs not any actual ownership.
> 
> And besides, I own the best dogs in the world, so it's a moot point.


Can't rep ya, I'm feeling to ill to post anything else so thank you for saying it in a much better way than me as always


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## jacks456 (Oct 17, 2013)

Ok I take your point about not all dogs are bred to the extremes but I'm getting at breeds such as brachycephalic where they're faces are so deformed they struggle breathing, can't regulate temperature, infected skin folds etc. Dogs that are bred with such bulging eyes, the slightest knock and they're in extreme danger. They're the extremes I'm getting at - and that, so long as genetic tests are carried out is deemed perfectly acceptable but when breeding two nicely built (jack russells in this case), well formed little dogs that can get about, run, play, be agile etc is (with all the points previously mentionned are taken on board) not? Do you understand what I mean? I don't want to be controversial, I really don't. I know my one dog in a million does not cover other pet litters, I just added it as an example. In other breeds, not as extreme, show lines are bred with ooodles of profuse coat, working dogs with a super high drive but what if you want something in between? Dogs were bred originally for a purpose but how many of those would be able to carry out their intended use today? A show yorkie, bred to a breed standard for the show ring, a standard that is supposedly derived for its working purpose I'm guessing couldn't do a days ratting with all that coat and tiny frame etc. Anyway, I'm going waaaaay off track sorry! xxx


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

jacks456 said:


> Hi - your Jack Russells are lovely and sounds like they have personalities to match. I think, if you've researched really well (as it sounds like you are doing), that you have homes lined up for the puppies (and are prepared to take any back if need be) and you're prepared for any heartache along the way then I really wish you the best. Jack Russells are wonderful dogs. There are breeds out there that regardless of the health tests available have problems due to being bred to conform to a crazy 'standard', have to have their babies via c-section etc. Dogs are supposed to be bred to either better the breed in the show ring or in the field but not everyone wants a dog bred to an extreme look or super high working drive. If homes are lined up, the parents have good natures and are health tested I can't understand why pet breeders get such negative feedback. I myself have had a dog from a pet Jack Russell litter and she was the best I could of ever had. I know my post will get ripped apart so I'm off to run for cover!! xxx


There is good and bad conformation in any dog - pedigree or crossbreed - just as there is in the horse, regardless of breed standards. Conformation is about how well the dog is soctructed, and therefore able to do a good day's work, for many years without undue wear and tear on the joints or developing weaknesses.

It's true that many sporting terriers don't have a breed standard, as neigher do luchers, but there are many Working terrier and Lurcher shows, where the judges are looking for a well-constructed dog.

Weak pasterns, straight stifles, flat shoulders and poor movement are not restricted to "pedigree show dogs" just as faults in a horse's structure are not limited to pure bred horses and ponies.

If you read back through this thread there ARE certain skeletal and congenital conditions that affect Jack Russells, despite them not having a Breed Standard! By far the most serious of these are eye conditions, as there is nothing more heartbreaking than to own a dog which goes blind when still young.

There is also luxating patella, which in its most serious form can require reconstructive surgery. Many JRTs suffer from LP in its mild form without even realising it, and if these dogs were bred together for enough generations then it certainly would worsen over time. Therefore it makes sense to apply some basic genetic health tests to ANY dog before breeding, pedigree or "mongrel" - including the JRT.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

jacks456 said:


> Ok I take your point about not all dogs are bred to the extremes but I'm getting at breeds such as brachycephalic where they're faces are so deformed they struggle breathing, can't regulate temperature, infected skin folds etc. Dogs that are bred with such bulging eyes, the slightest knock and they're in extreme danger. They're the extremes I'm getting at - and that, so long as genetic tests are carried out is deemed perfectly acceptable but when breeding two nicely built (jack russells in this case), well formed little dogs that can get about, run, play, be agile etc is (with all the points previously mentionned are taken on board) not? Do you understand what I mean? I don't want to be controversial, I really don't. I know my one dog in a million does not cover other pet litters, I just added it as an example. In other breeds, not as extreme, show lines are bred with ooodles of profuse coat, working dogs with a super high drive but what if you want something in between? Dogs were bred originally for a purpose but how many of those would be able to carry out their intended use today? A show yorkie, bred to a breed standard for the show ring, a standard that is supposedly derived for its working purpose I'm guessing couldn't do a days ratting with all that coat and tiny frame etc. Anyway, I'm going waaaaay off track sorry! xxx


I suggest that's a debate for a separate thread, as it is going widely off-topic in this one.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

jacks456 said:


> Ok I take your point about not all dogs are bred to the extremes but I'm getting at breeds such as brachycephalic where they're faces are so deformed they struggle breathing, can't regulate temperature, infected skin folds etc. Dogs that are bred with such bulging eyes, the slightest knock and they're in extreme danger. They're the extremes I'm getting at - and that, so long as genetic tests are carried out is deemed perfectly acceptable but when breeding two nicely built (jack russells in this case), well formed little dogs that can get about, run, play, be agile etc is (with all the points previously mentionned are taken on board) not? Do you understand what I mean? I don't want to be controversial, I really don't. I know my one dog in a million does not cover other pet litters, I just added it as an example. In other breeds, not as extreme, show lines are bred with ooodles of profuse coat, working dogs with a super high drive but what if you want something in between? Dogs were bred originally for a purpose but how many of those would be able to carry out their intended use today? A show yorkie, bred to a breed standard for the show ring, a standard that is supposedly derived for its working purpose I'm guessing couldn't do a days ratting with all that coat and tiny frame etc. Anyway, I'm going waaaaay off track sorry! xxx


taken from the pug breed standard...
HEAD AND SKULL
Head relatively large and in proportion to body, round, not apple-headed, with no indentation of skull. *Muzzle relatively short*, blunt, square, not upfaced. Nose black, fairly large with wide open nostrils. Wrinkles on forehead clearly defined without exaggeration. Eyes or nose never adversely affected or obscured by over nose wrinkle. Pinched nostrils and *heavy over nose wrinkle is unacceptable and should be heavily penalised*.

that sounds like a healthy dog to me... but standards are open to interpretation and some unfortunately have bred the extremes- but its the buyers who keep them breeding remember!

as for the yorkie... they ARE still worked! i have a show quality (apart from her being 2lbs bigger than the standards maximum size) yorkie, and she could certainly work. they are mostly used for barns and outhouses it seems- places where some other ratters aren't used because they have an 'off switch' that some breeds don't have to such a degree due to their Very high drive. the silky coat was to prevent things getting stuck in it; a true silk coat doesnt matt- i brush kuki once a week (sometimes less on her main body  ) and she has never been matted, or even tangled. 
but you only need to see my other threads to see that i do agree there are problems in the breed, but thats nothing to do with the standard, but rather how it is perceived by some.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

jacks456 said:


> Ok I take your point about not all dogs are bred to the extremes but I'm getting at breeds such as brachycephalic where they're faces are so deformed they struggle breathing, can't regulate temperature, infected skin folds etc. Dogs that are bred with such bulging eyes, the slightest knock and they're in extreme danger. They're the extremes I'm getting at - and that, so long as genetic tests are carried out is deemed perfectly acceptable but when breeding two nicely built (jack russells in this case), well formed little dogs that can get about, run, play, be agile etc is (with all the points previously mentionned are taken on board) not? Do you understand what I mean? I don't want to be controversial, I really don't. I know my one dog in a million does not cover other pet litters, I just added it as an example. In other breeds, not as extreme, show lines are bred with ooodles of profuse coat, working dogs with a super high drive but what if you want something in between? Dogs were bred originally for a purpose but how many of those would be able to carry out their intended use today? A show yorkie, bred to a breed standard for the show ring, a standard that is supposedly derived for its working purpose I'm guessing couldn't do a days ratting with all that coat and tiny frame etc. Anyway, I'm going waaaaay off track sorry! xxx


I think Merlinsmum has pretty much hit the nail on the head, responding to this in full would be a whole new topic in itself, and yes, I see your point, but I think that's one side of the picture, and a lot of the time, and this is not aimed at you, but this sort of argument is used as an excuse to ignore the health aspects, and the lack of knowledge about conformation etc. We could each pick fault with the other side (not you and me, but generally speaking) as there are plenty on both sides. We are all learning, in reality, as no matter how much experience we have, or knowledge, there are new things to be discovered about dog breeding, but I don't believe ignorance is a valid excuse any longer, not with all the information at our finger tips. You could gamble, and possibly end up with happy, healthy pups, but why should you gamble, when you know there is more to breeding than having two nice dogs, and putting them together, hoping for nice puppies?


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## jacks456 (Oct 17, 2013)

Sorry, I didn't mean to go way off track so ignore that bit - I got on a bit of a roll! Please don't think I'm trying to put a spanner in the works, I'm just sharing my opinion. In my post, please note I did say health testing should be done regardless of breed or cross - I am totally for health testing. I have never bred - I don't think I could handle the heartache or put any of my dogs through it. If I was to ever consider it, health testing would be first on my list. All I'm trying to point out is, I go on dog forums a fair bit and anyone asking for advice on breeding for pets gets scared off any questioning as it gets so intense (some may give up, some others continue blindly without research and others continue research and do things properly). In this case Kyo has taken all the points on board and is continuing her gathering of information before she makes her decision which I really applaud. Breeding is a very emotive subject and I completly understand why people feel so passionately to post what they do. I think its great, people need to know the highs and many lows that come with breeding but just wanted to add my thoughts on the subject with a (UK unrecognised breed) that is very close to my heart xxx


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Wow i have missed a lot on the thread today! As always thankyou thankyou and thankyou for everyone taking an interest, even those with opinions that may not be to my liking, but as i was told by (hopefully) new friends here hehe Even the best of breeders will be called out on doing things wrong because everybody personally has different ideas of the perfect breeding technique. That's why i'm trying to listen to all the good and the bad (and try my hardest not to get upset about the bad) Thankyou jacks456 for joining the discussion and offering me your kind support 

I thought i'd let everyone know what i've been doing today. WELL! There is a loooot of reading to do on each aspect of breeding and i was starting not to take it in because i was going at it constantly. So i went out into the conservatory for a cuppa tea and got chatting to my neighbour (who has two adorable westies which kinda live in my house half the time and my dogs in hers since we leave the gate in the fence open so all four dogs can play all day on most days providing its not terrible weather. I told her about what i was doing and all the suggestions from you guys and she said well why dont we go dwn to talk to her breeder, just for a little general chat about her experience. (Her westie breeder is still breeding and luckily enough lives around the corner from my street)

So we walked down and went in. I told her that i was thinking of breeding lula for just one litter and that i was researching health tests and such that need checked before i can decide and i was wondering if she could maybe share some of her experience with me. First of all she got all excited and hugged me and said well done. I was like huh? And she said she was proud of me for coming to her and taking the time to learn before doing something. I kinda blushed a bit but it made me feel less stupid for asking. Then she started showing me photos of past litters and telling me about how each birth went. Unlucky for me she had plans but she says i've to come back down any time and i can go through the whole process with her!! When she has her next litter, from start to finish. I'm very happy 

I also phoned jen and asked about health testing and she said she still has all her paperwork from her breeding days and she will dig it all out for me. She has lulas mum and dads paperwork but she also has lula's aunt and the two cousins paperwork because those dogs stayed within the family. So hopefully all being well with that (i will let you all know what sort of testing was done and what the results were and you can give me any opinions and help maybe for a test that wasn't done that should have been or something?) going well, i will be able to then book our appointments at the vet for lula and oso's tests to be done. And yes i did agree with you all that Oso may not be the right dog to stud her with but i decided i'd like to get him tested too anyway, i figure it might alert me to any troubles i might have in later life with him, so its a good thing all round.

But anyway this was my day  I'm hoping my book of the bitch is delivered soon i can't wait to read it, and theres a few other textbooks i ordered too coming, but the way everyone on here goes on about book of the bitch i am very excited to read it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Kyo said:


> I told [my neighbor] what i was doing & all the suggestions... she said, ...why don't we... talk to her breeder,
> ...a general chat about her experience. (Her Westie breeder... lives around the corner from my street).
> 
> So we walked down... I told her i was thinking of breeding Lula for just one litter &... researching health tests & such...
> ...


*Excellent news!* :thumbup:

Also, very good that U'll be testing Oso, whether he's to be a sire or not; lots of folks don't spend the money,
despite the fact that [as U say] health-tests are good early-alerts of possible future problems, which can save 
the dog AND the owner much trouble, there may be steps which can be taken to prevent worse outcomes.

having another breeder nearby, especially another terrier-breeder, is wonderful - i'm so glad that 
the Westie breeder is helpful & enthused about mentoring, not all are so generous. That's fantastic. :yesnod:

I'll be eager to hear the prior-test results, that will fill in some background, & some new photos, maybe?...

I'm very excited to see Lula & Oso each in a side-on, full body & head profile, at dog-level. That's the one 
that tells the observer the most, IME.

Glad Ur Westie-loving neighbor thought to ask her breeder for advice. Brilliant outcome - yay! :thumbup1:


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Hey everyone! Sorry i havn't been on, i've been super busy. Glad you aprove of my plans for Oso's tests ! I won't be online as often right now as i have a big job to complete for a customer before halloween! God deadlines get shorter and shorter! Pictures! yes i knew i forgot something! Well i'm only jumping on now to make sure you guys didn't think i'd ditched, i am as always so thankful for all help i recieve from everyone here, and after origonally being scared and thinking i wouldn't be sticking around because of my upset and attacked feelings towards the first lot of posts i have decided i will defo be staying here and have found a few people who hope will continue to support me in my venture to learn and perhaps one day be there for me when i put my learning into action! Funny how addictive this site can become i have missed it like crazy allday today, which is why i jumped on! 

I will try to have proper photos taken for the next time im able to get online and chat, and maybe i'll even have an update by then from jen on the parents and grands health tests. As for lula and Oso, my little darlings who are sitting next to me right now wondering why we're not in bed yet haha. They have their check up coming up where they will have their weight and teeth and everything checked get flead and wormed and all that lovely stuff (two words: anal glands.... yuk!) So at the appointment i'm going to ask about all the tests i've been learning about and see about getting them appointments for any neccesary blood samples or xrays or... well i'm not sure as i've never had a dog health tested before.

I hope i'll be able to update you all again soon! Oh i'm also gonna be starting to cycle my old fishtank again this month as we're decorating the house and i would love to have fishys again, so calming to watch :3 But thats for another thread haha! 

Love to all and i'll talk to guys all again later!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Kyo said:


> [Lula & Oso] have their check-ups coming... they'll have their weight and teeth & everything checked,
> [be pre-treated to kill fleas] & wormed, & all that lovely stuff - *two words: anal glands*.... yuk!
> 
> ...at the appt *i'll ask about* all the tests i've been hearing about, & see about... appts for any necessary
> blood samples or x-rays or... i'm not sure[/b], as i've never had a dog health tested before.


If Ur vet is in the habit of expelling anal-glands regularly, U might want to re-think that & ask about it - 
anal-glands that are repeatedly expressed by hand, often are prone to impaction, infection, & often
STOP their normal itty-bit of musk expression during each stool. They can become dependent on the
manual expression, & quit working on their own. Groomers have the same bad-habit - express the glands,
even if they are not problematic, are working fine, aren't swollen, etc.

re Pre-breeding tests & DNA-screens:
Most GP-vets don't know diddly about breed-specific health tests or gene-screening before breeding;
vets who are breeders themselves may know about "their" breed, but not others; most know only 
the generic tests [eye-certificate from k9-opthalmologist, hip-dysplasia for most dogs, elbows for many,
PRA gene-screen for all, etc, etc].

if U want the "best" radiographs for elbows / hips / knees, i'll strongly recommend Penn-HIP - 
they have practitioners in the UK, each vet is trained to read their own prints, no FEE for shipping
the radiographs [& another for reading them / scoring the dog], they use *three* poses, 2 of them
are "dog-normal" as opposed to the one extreme-extension, human-style, upright pose used by OFA...

PennHIP also compares joint angles & structure WITHIN breeds, not across them, & not to an "ideal" single 
model [a sighthound] as the Ortho Foundation for Animals does. They score Deutsche Dog as DD, OES as OES,
& so on.



> _
> 
> MICHAEL GUILLIARD
> NANTWICH VETERINARY HOSPITAL
> ...


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## Kyo (Sep 13, 2013)

Hey guys!!!

Okay so me and my brother were out shopping and i know this has nothing to do with my thread but i thought you guys might have a giggle with us just over the dogs we've been discussing in this thread being cute for no reason.

So when shopping in the huge petstore we usually spend all our hard earned pennies in we happened to see uggs for dogs and we just had to buy them.

We knew they would be a waste of money as i mean who actually makes their dog wear shoes everyday? lol i hope no one! But for a little five minute giggle trying them on totally worth the money.

So lula didn't like them at all so we just left her be but Oso on the other hand he didn't bother at all so this is a lil funny video of him wearing his new ugg shoes (they ended up chewed up in the next hour and in the bin the next day destroyed hahaha)

Anyway might let you actually see my beloved babies aswell, just having fun.

P.s the last lil minute is the funniest when Oso decides he wants to play fight with Lula while wearing his shoes! XDD

Jack Russell dog wearing shoes My pet puppy&#39;s ugg boots - YouTube


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