# My dog has just swallowed a chicken drumstick! :(



## DL1996 (Oct 28, 2013)

Hi,

Just hoping to receive some advice. One of my Bulldog's Nina grabbed a (cooked) chicken drumstick off my plate (my back was turned for a second) and I went to grab it off her and she swallowed it whole. 

Is there anything I should look out for? Vomiting, Difficulty Pooping etc?

This happened around 15 minutes ago 

Kind regards x


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Just keep a close eye on her and watch for any changes to her normal behaviour. 

Odds are she will be fine. Mine have all stolen or found chicken bones on walks (thanks, KFC munching oiks and bin-raiding foxes/cats!) at some point with no ill effects.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

labradrk said:


> Just keep a close eye on her and watch for any changes to her normal behaviour.
> 
> Odds are she will be fine. Mine have all stolen or found chicken bones on walks (thanks, KFC munching oiks and bin-raiding foxes/cats!) at some point with no ill effects.


Absolutely.

My Rosie stole a cooked chicken bone a few days ago and swallowed the whole thing before I could get it off her.

As long as you don't see any vomiting and if she's pooping normally and seems to be her normal self, don't worry.

It's not something you would want to give her, but it won't necessarily cause her any harm.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Keep and eye on her, dont take offense but the dog shouldn't be stealing from your plate anyway, a dog that respects you would never steal from you be it food or anything else, I have left Josie over night with beef wrapped in foil plenty of times and/or I can put my plate next to her and go shower she would not take it not because she is trained not to take food off plates but because she respects me, also if you feed her table scraps then thats most likely why she jumped up and stole your chicken, I may be wrong but just had to say it

edit; why was the dog next to you while eating chicken? it was obviously watching you because it pounced on the chicken as soon as you took a blind eye.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Keep and eye on her, dont take offense but the dog shouldn't be stealing from your plate anyway, a dog that respects you would never steal from you be it food or anything else, I have left Josie over night with beef wrapped in foil plenty of times and/or I can put my plate next to her and go shower she would not take it not because she is trained not to take food off plates but because she respects me, also if you feed her table scraps then thats most likely why she jumped up and stole your chicken, I may be wrong but just had to say it


What does a dog 'respecting' you have to do with him or her stealing food? A dog is going to do what works. If you train him or her that what works ie what makes good things happen, is not stealing good off someone's plate, then they won't steal food. Respect has nothing to go with it.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Once had a dog get one out the bin once, he was fine. Just keep an eye on yours but it will probably be ok


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

My bullmastiff will swallow anything whole that will slip down her throat. Its not ideal that your dog ate cooked chicken, bones and all but I think you have been given good advice here.

Bully also has eaten all sorts of stuff with bones in it.cooked and uncooked and lived to tell the tale.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Keep and eye on her, dont take offense but the dog shouldn't be stealing from your plate anyway, a dog that respects you would never steal from you be it food or anything else, I have left Josie over night with beef wrapped in foil plenty of times and/or I can put my plate next to her and go shower she would not take it not because she is trained not to take food off plates but because she respects me, also if you feed her table scraps then thats most likely why she jumped up and stole your chicken, I may be wrong but just had to say it
> 
> edit; why was the dog next to you while eating chicken? it was obviously watching you because it pounced on the chicken as soon as you took a blind eye.


What a very arrogant attitude.

What the heck has a dog stealing from a bin or elsewhere got to to do with respect?

Rosie got her bone when I accidentally dropped it and she pounced on it before I could.

Accidents happen. I'm happy for you that you can leave your dog with a whole load of beef overnight, but I'm afraid we may not all be as perfect as you.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Alice Childress said:


> What does a dog 'respecting' you have to do with him or her stealing food? A dog is going to do what works. If you train him or her that what works ie what makes good things happen, is not stealing good off someone's plate, then they won't steal food. Respect has nothing to go with it.


9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs. If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat.
*

2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dog's food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).

3. *No table scraps should be fed to the dogs during a meal. *

16. dog that steals food from human hands has no respect for the human, and therefore does not see the human as pack leader.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Sweety said:


> What a very arrogant attitude.
> 
> What the heck has a dog stealing from a bin or elsewhere got to to do with respect?
> 
> ...


Why was the dog watching you eat? im not perfect just have a perfect dog who I chose to train properly


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs. If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat.
> *
> 
> 2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dogs food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).
> ...


Rubbish. Where the heck are you getting your dialogue from?

I don't feed Rosie table scraps. She would never steal food from my hands.

When a bone landed on the floor, she jumped on it. Can you really believe that means she has no respect for me?

What is all this "Pack Leader Eats First" nonsense?


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I would agree with those who've said to keep an eye on her as she will more than likely be fine. I'd personally give the emergency vet a call just to confirm what kind of symptoms to look out for and put my mind at rest, but I'm a bit of a worrier.

Respect has nothing to do with it! Dogs are opportunists and I'm confident that plenty of well-trained dogs would take advantage of a readily available chicken bone (except perfect Josie who was trained perfectly by her perfect owner of course )


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Rubbish. Where the heck are you getting your dialogue from?
> 
> I don't feed Rosie table scraps. She would never steal food from my hands.
> 
> ...


I got the dialogue from 4 different websites actually and different forums

I NEVER said YOUR dog doesn't respect you I can understand her pouncing on a DROPPED bone, but what I dont understand is that this dog stole from his PLATE


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Thorne said:


> I would agree with those who've said to keep an eye on her as she will more than likely be fine. I'd personally give the emergency vet a call just to confirm what kind of symptoms to look out for and put my mind at rest, but I'm a bit of a worrier.
> 
> Respect has nothing to do with it! Dogs are opportunists and I'm confident that plenty of well-trained dogs would take advantage of a readily available chicken bone (except perfect Josie who was trained perfectly by her perfect owner of course )


I find that dog who are fed on dry chemicals oops I mean kibble is more likely to pounce on a tasty chicken bone because its a rare treat if you fed raw much lower chance of seeing that bone disappear


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I got the dialogue from 4 different websites actually and different forums


Which ones? Do the authors have any qualifications in animal behaviour?

P.S. Everything is made of chemicals. Raw or cooked or processed, it's still chemicals! My dogs are more interested in cooked meat than they are in their raw meat


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh, websites and forums?

So you're repeating what you've seen other people say?

Would you like to explain something to me then, as you're such a knowledgeable Pack Leader.

If I throw Rosie a bone, or if I accidentally drop a bone, how does she know the difference?

Dogs do not know what is our food or theirs'. Food is food and if they see it, they'll eat it.

How does Pack Leadership stop a dog from eating food it has the chance to get?


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Thorne said:


> Which ones? Do the authors have any qualifications in animal behaviour?


Stan Rawlinson, Cesar Milan ect


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Oh, websites and forums?
> 
> So you're repeating what you've seen other people say?
> 
> ...


And Im not repeating what "others" have said at all its common sense really if you understand dog behaviour

That is why you teach them to wait and then release and say OK before they eat, drop it or leave command comes in handy I guess you never practiced that?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Keep and eye on her, dont take offense but the dog shouldn't be stealing from your plate anyway, a dog that respects you would never steal from you be it food or anything else, I have left Josie over night with beef wrapped in foil plenty of times and/or I can put my plate next to her and go shower she would not take it not because she is trained not to take food off plates but because she respects me, also if you feed her table scraps then thats most likely why she jumped up and stole your chicken, I may be wrong but just had to say it
> 
> edit; why was the dog next to you while eating chicken? it was obviously watching you because it pounced on the chicken as soon as you took a blind eye.


Respect is not something dogs understand? Tbh rather like it's nothing to do with anyone how long you walk your dog it's sure as hell nothing to do with you what anyone feeds their dogs or how they chose to feed them!!!!

Why shouldn't her dog be next to her when she eats?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs. If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat.
> *
> 
> 2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dogs food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).
> ...


Ohhhhhh understands dog behaviour but recites pack theory!!!!! Nuff said!


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Respect is not something dogs understand? Tbh rather like it's nothing to do with anyone how long you walk your dog it's sure as hell nothing to do with you what anyone feeds their dogs or how they chose to feed them!!!!
> 
> Why shouldn't her dog be next to her when she eats?


Hey no need to gang up and try bully someone who understands because you dont. ofcourse dogs understand respect, I think before anyone here gives me crap about saying my own opinion WHICH I am entitled to, take some dog behavior classes or start reading some well known leadership/behavioral books,if you would like PM me and I can suggest a few


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> And Im not repeating what "others" have said at all its common sense really if you understand dog behaviour
> 
> That is why you teach them to wait and then release and say OK before they eat, drop it or leave command comes in handy I guess you never practiced that?


Oh the arrogance of youth :hand:


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> And Im not repeating what "others" have said at all *its common sense really if you understand dog behaviour*


Sadly, Cesar Millan is an excellent example of someone who does not understand dog behaviour, so applying common sense to training is something you might struggle with if you follow his methods.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Hey no need to gang up and try bully someone who understands because you dont. ofcourse dogs understand respect, I think before anyone here gives me crap about saying my own opinion WHICH I am entitled to, take some dog behavior classes or start reading some well known leadership/behavioral books,if you would like PM me and I can suggest a few


The pack theory is an out dated theory if has been shown to be based on incorrect research, out dated by a couple a decades I might add


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Thorne said:


> Sadly, Cesar Millan is an excellent example of someone who does not understand dog behaviour, so applying common sense to training is something you might struggle with if you follow his methods.


I certainly dont follow his "methods" but I do listen to people who have worked with him, can you please elaborate on highlighted


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> And Im not repeating what "others" have said at all its common sense really if you understand dog behaviour
> 
> That is why you teach them to wait and then release and say OK before they eat, drop it or leave command comes in handy I guess you never practiced that?


Darling.

I've owned terriers and rescued terriers for forty years now.

Yes, my dogs know well the "Leave" command.

It's very enlightening that you quote Cesar Millan's doctrines as your basis for what we should and shouldn't be doing.

I would like to say, Get Real. I appreciate that you have read other forums and websites, but at Eighteen years old, you have no experience.

Don't preach nonsense to those of us who know a whole lot better and don't try to cry "Bully".

We've heard that before. You post a strong opinion, if others disagree, it doesn't mean they're bullies, it means they disagree. Simple as that.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Meezey said:


> The pack theory is an out dated theory if has been shown to be based on incorrect research, out dated by a couple a decades I might add


Care to share where you got your information from? I would love to read it


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

It seems to me that "reading" information is all you do.

You suggest to me that I need to learn dog behaviour. Really?

Oh, to be Eighteen years old again.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Darling.
> 
> I've owned terriers and rescued terriers for forty years now.
> 
> ...


You made me crack a smile *"I've owned terriers and rescued terriers for forty years now"*

Incompetent


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Hey no need to gang up and try bully someone who understands because you dont. ofcourse dogs understand respect, I think before anyone here gives me crap about saying my own opinion WHICH I am entitled to, take some dog behavior classes or start reading some well known leadership/behavioral books,if you would like PM me and I can suggest a few


LOL, because I'm sure people will jump at the chance to get some behavioural advice from a teenager who has read a couple of completely outdated books and now believe they are an expert.

Don't run before you can walk.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Sweety said:


> It seems to me that "reading" information is all you do.
> 
> You suggest to me that I need to learn dog behaviour. Really?
> 
> Oh, to be Eighteen years old again.


My age has nothing to do with my knowledge unlike you older persons who think because they have own dogs for 30 years think they know everything, I have been going to dog psychology courses for 6years now since I was 12 and even though I am 18 I still know more if you are that arrogant not to understand the basic dog rule of pack leader


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

What ........ ?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Care to share where you got your information from? I would love to read it


Any training courses I have attended, all the on line courses I've done, training seminars I've attended,when I was training Army Guard dogs for a living, google Pack Theory Debunked or Pack Theory out dated and pages of papers, sites etc will come up


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> And Im not repeating what "others" have said at all its common sense really if you understand dog behaviour
> 
> That is why you teach them to wait and then release and say OK before they eat, drop it or leave command comes in handy I guess you never practiced that?


Sorry kid but that was the forefront of thinking over 30 years ago.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Pack Leader?

Oh well love, you've given me a laugh tonight, if nothing else.

Bless you, how silly you are.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Any training courses I have attended, all the on line courses I've done, training seminars I've attended,when I was training Army Guard dogs for a living, google Pack Theory Debunked or Pack Theory out dated and pages of papers, sites etc will come up


Its all well and good SAYING you have done but if I see no evidence then its all lies


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Its all well and good SAYING you have done but if I see no evidence then its all lies


Mmmmmhmmmm rather  Quite ironic a statement really.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Pack Leader?
> 
> Oh well love, you've given me a laugh tonight, if nothing else.
> 
> Bless you, how silly you are.


Given me a good laugh, too. I've never been called a granny before! :lol:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Be quite granny im not interested in your stories you remind me of someone I used to walk with 70 years old losing memory and still thinks they know everything sit back down, im going to bed now because of your incompetence


Yes, do go to bed little boy.

Who knows, you may waken up tomorrow a little wiser.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

OP-I hope your dog is ok.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Articles for AR and anyone else interested in the "pack leader theory".

From a peer-reviewed ethology journal: http://www.animalsandsociety.com/assets/library/205_s15327604jaws07047.pdf

Another peer-reviewed study:
Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat -- ScienceDaily

From a veterinary behaviourist: The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

From a CBCC-KA (certified behavior consultant canine - knowledge assessed) and CPDT-KA (certified professional dog trainer - knowledge assessed) trainer:
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

From the Association of Pet Dog Trainers:
Dominance and Dog Training

Got a few more if required


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

I stand corrected, there "apparently" is no pack leadership

My only question is why I was taught in my courses that there was?


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Hmmm this thread WAS about dogs eating chicken......


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I stand corrected, there "apparently" is no pack leadership
> 
> My only question is why I was taught in my courses that there was?


Because you've been attending the wrong courses love.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I stand corrected, there "apparently" is no pack leadership
> 
> My only question is why I was taught in my courses that there was?


Because your course was outdated?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I stand corrected, there "apparently" is no pack leadership
> 
> My only question is why I was taught in my courses that there was?


Who are your course with? Most accredited courses haven't had Pack Theory included for a long time.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs.
> If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat. *
> 
> 2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first.
> ...


 ... :001_tongue: :w00t:  :hand: :lol:   :blink: :nonod:

What a shame - U can't count, & U're channeling Mr Toothy. I'm so sorry, it must be difficult.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Its all well and good SAYING you have done but if I see no evidence then its all lies


De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

http://www.woofology.com/alpha%20myth.html

Since being banned from entering certain countries [inc UK] to do demonstrations, even Cesar himself is now backtracking - [$ in pocket speaks louder than anything ]

Please, try and bring yourself up to date with training, positive training brings the same rewards [leave is easy to train using a positive training method] without harsh corrective negative training

dogs don't want to dominate us, nor can they respect us, we are not the same species and don't give the same cues as other dogs
Dogs don't even want to dominate each other, *they're not wolves*, wolves don't even dominate each other, they respect each others role within the pack, a beta female is just as important as the alpha, no, they may not breed, but they keep the pack inline whilst the alpha females job is to breed breed and breed again
they don't run in packs - feral dogs work together or in parallel, 
they will breed indiscriminately, many dogs mating with one bitch, bitches actively seeking out many dogs to breed with - again unlike wolves

We can train and curb the behaviour of our dogs, but they are still opportunist scavengers, which is why they allied with man in the first place, after all.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Apologies to the OP for derailing the thread  I'm sure your girl will be fine, let us know how she gets on.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

stuaz said:


> Hmmm, this thread WAS about dogs eating chicken...


only sorta - if the OP's dog had simply gobbled chcken MEAT, there'd be no worry. 
it's the cooked BONE, which is very prone to splinter with extremely sharp edges, & puncture - stomachs,
small or large bowel, etc, causing internal bleeding, infection, & quite possibly death.

The gorgeous male Irish Wolfhound at my first "real" job, a 4-star restaurant when i was 15-YO,
died when a cook's help gave him PORK CHOPS, bone-in - & he ate them. He died in agony. :nonod:

POULTRY & PORK bones should never be fed cooked, & of course due to Trichinosis, we also don't
feed pork [or pork bones] raw - only completely cooked. Sterilized bones are fine - they're the ones
sold commercially, bright-white due to bleaching.
.
.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> ... :001_tongue: :w00t:  :hand: :lol:   :blink: :nonod:
> 
> What a shame - U can't count, & U're channeling Mr Toothy. I'm so sorry, it must be difficult.


I cant count? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Stan Rawlinson, Cesar Milan[, etc].


oh, my - no wonder!  U need to come to the 21st century, A-R, & get out of the Time Machine.


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, my - no wonder!  U need to come to the 21st century, A-R, & get out of the Time Machine.


Dont patronize me, I was taught wrong about pack leadership obviously and Im really frustrated now


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I stand corrected, there "apparently" is no pack leadership
> 
> My only question is why I was taught in my courses that there was?


Maybe if you would tell us who were the speakers at these courses we could tell you why they spread such outdated information? (and let other people know not to attend their courses!)

OP, your girl should be fine. just watch how she acts in the next few days. if she seems to have an upset stomach or just very restless/ upset i would take her to the vet to make sure everything is ok.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Does it matter if your 13 years old or 80 years old- it's not about age or who knows more, it's about doing your research on theories and being educated enough to move on from pack leader. But it did give me an image of a bunch of wolves (which pack leader is based on) around a carcass and the big, bad leader wolf giving them all permission and alpha rolling the ones who don't wait nicely. 

OP let us know how everything goes


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Hope Nina suffers no ill effects, Daisy made off with a prawn cracker from our takeaway tonight the little minx! X


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## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

shadowmare said:


> Maybe if you would tell us who were the speakers at these courses we could tell you why they spread such outdated information? (and let other people know not to attend their courses!)
> 
> OP, your girl should be fine. just watch how she acts in the next few days. if she seems to have an upset stomach or just very restless/ upset i would take her to the vet to make sure everything is ok.


I am too tired and frustrated to think properly atm but I will read my papers and reply goodnight, very reluctant to say this but im sorry for my incompetence


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> only sorta - if the OP's dog had simply gobbled chcken MEAT, there'd be no worry.


Think you missed the point I was making


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article
> 
> De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article
> 
> ...


:thumbup: :w00t: :thumbup: :w00t: :thumbup: :w00t: :thumbup: :w00t: :thumbup: :w00t:

Succinct & excellent presentation - may i have the sesame-seed envelope, please?...
U've just won an all-expenses paid trip to Ur own kitchen, for the beverage & tidbits of Ur choice!
Hurrah! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Don't patronize me, I was taught wrong about pack leadership obviously, and I'm really frustrated, now.


I'm sorry, truly that was tongue in cheek, i didn't intend it to be mean. 

Mr Millan has a lot to answer for, not only for the needless intimidation & harsh handling he's dished out,
but for massively misleading & even deliberately lying by omission, to the many, many ppl who were
sincere believers, & took his spoken words & shown techniques as Gospel revelation. :nonod:

Don't take it too much to heart, luckily dogs are extremely forgiving, & most will learn some semblance
of manners & a few cued behaviors, no matter HOW they are taught. It's just that there are methods & tools
that are kinder as well as more efficient than "punish everything wrong, until the dog stumbles onto the one
Correct Answer in these particular circumstances" which sadly is pretty much what traditional training
consists of - the dog trying & failing, & failing, & failing... it's a waste of time & energy, & disheartening to both
the owner or handler, AND the dog.

Instead, focus on what U want the dog TO DO, teach them that, make it pay off, & problem solved.
Voila! --- no unwanted behaviors to eliminate, no bad habits, error-free housetraining, & the dog learns
the way a chick picks up grain - easily, readily, & with minimal stress.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

stuaz said:


> Think you missed the point I was making


I probly did - sorry.  It's been a long stressful day of personal-care to a nonlogical client, so my own brain
is not in the most-incisively diamante' state, anyhow! :lol:

if i'm too dim, forgive me - i'll be better, tomorrow, i promise.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

What the **** is everyone going on about op go to the vet asap hope everything is OK.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

zedder said:


> What the **** is everyone going on about?...
> 
> OP, go to the vet ASAP - hope everything is OK.


we got sidetracked. 

If i had seen this thread within 30 to 40-mins of the dog SWALLOWING the bone, i'd have suggested
call the vet NOW & ask about 1st-Aid strength H2O2 to make the dog vomit quickly - when my Akita-bitch
swallowed a [long-dead] poisoned mouse who'd been given Coumadin / hemorrhagic poison,
that's what the vet advised over the phone, & it was up & out in less than 5-mins.

It does cause REALLY strong vomiting, but it's over & done quickly, too.  Better out than in!
.
.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Oh that's good I was just thinking what the hell didn't want the posters dog to cark it because everyone was on about all this dominance crap.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

zedder said:


> Oh, that's good - I was just thinking, "what the hell..."


we're not heartless geeks who can't get off a behavioral hot-spot, & would ignore a plea for help
from someone whose dog is in dire straits! --- really, we're not, even if it seems that way. 

THe KEY thing is that *this* dog swallowed the bone entire - had the dog crunched the ends off, or snapped
the bone in 2 for easier swallowing, the risk of serious consequences would be much-higher.

As it is, the stomach acids will dissolve a lot of calcium, & the gut will work on the cartilage, any tendons,
etc, but the bone is likely to pass thru, & out the anus.

It's not *guaranteed* - but it's very likely.


zedder said:


> ... didn't want the poster's dog to cark it, because everyone was [nattering] on about all this
> dominance crap.


if the dog DOES get sick or hurt internally, it's not likely to be symptomatic before a day or more goes by.

The bone has to exit the stomach & enter the small bowel; possibly it will hang-up & block the bowel,
but again, not big odds. Then it transits all the large bowel, then the anus, & hopefully emerges in 1 piece.
.
.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

How is your dog this morning OP?

This thread never would have gone off topic if it weren't for someone preaching about leadership and respect crap!


----------



## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

Hope your dog is ok after the drumstick incident.


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs. If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat.
> *
> 
> 2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dog's food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).
> ...


I haven't read all of the replies, however, what you have quoted is based on a debunked and outdated understanding of dog behaviour called 'dominance theory'. Dogs simply do not work in that way, and you really don't need to eat before you dog to prove you are 'pack leader'. This isn't opinion, it's science.

You obviously care a lot about your dog and try and do what is best for her, so I would really recommend google 'the myths about dominance theory', and reading 'Culture clash' by Jean Donaldson for an up to date understanding of dogs 

Edited to say:

Just read back a little a saw this:



ActiveRidgeback said:


> Hey no need to gang up and try bully someone who understands because you dont. ofcourse dogs understand respect, I think before anyone here gives me crap about saying my own opinion WHICH I am entitled to, take some dog behavior classes or start reading some well known leadership/behavioral books,if you would like PM me and I can suggest a few


Ouch, ActiveRidgeback... I feel for you a little a bit, as reading back people did jump on you (quite possibly because they've disagreed with you on another thread already so are less patient possibly) rather than trying to explain nicely that you are mistaken, and maybe you responded with the above out of defense, but you really are mistaken. It's great that you have read books, but you are reading the wrong books and going to the wrong classes, if you are being told that dominance theory is true. It simply is not.

This forum is very forgiving, and if you go and read more and change your mind, no one here will begrudge you, in fact most likely they'll be impressed by your maturity and ability to say you were wrong - it's happened before! Dominance theory is pushed by certain people/clubs but it is not how dogs work.

Edited AGAIN:

Ok! Finished the thread now so can reply more accurately  ActiveRidgie does go on to say that they stand corrected the moment they are presented with proof against dominance theory. Yes, Ok they were arrogant and rude in some of their comments, but they were defensive because people replied angrily (I'm guessing). That's pretty impressive that ActiveRidgie instantly was prepared to reconsider everything he'd just been arguing for. It is frustrating ActiveRidgie that you were talk the wrong information at training, some places are still using outdated methods, however, fewer and fewer are. There are lots of great books to read if you want to know more on the subject


----------



## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> Be quite granny im not interested in your stories you remind me of someone I used to walk with 70 years old losing memory and still thinks they know everything sit back down, im going to bed now because of your incompetence


This word respect you keep throwing about.. You should try using it!!!


----------



## ActiveRidgeback (Apr 20, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> I'm sorry, truly that was tongue in cheek, i didn't intend it to be mean.
> 
> Mr Millan has a lot to answer for, not only for the needless intimidation & harsh handling he's dished out,
> but for massively misleading & even deliberately lying by omission, to the many, many ppl who were
> ...


Oh god no I never used and never will do use those techniques on Josie, the only thing I misunderstood was them seeing you as pack leader nothing else. I watched the show and entertainment I never used the techniques because I thought so myself he was bullying the dogs into submission. I use hard work, commitment & affection to train Josie NOT brutality


----------



## DL1996 (Oct 28, 2013)

UPDATE: 

Hey everyone, 

Apologies for not replying sooner, I have been having internet trouble.

Nina is absolutley fine this morning! Thank you all for your advice, (despite being sidetracked lol!) I will still monitor her over the next couple of days and if I notice any changes in her, I will definatley whisk her off to the vet x

Regards,

Sarah x


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I am so glad Nina is ok this morning just keep an eye on her fingers crossed for you


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs. If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat.
> *
> 
> 2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dogs food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).
> ...


 Really? I break all these silly rules and have a dog (a stomach on legs labrador no less!) who can lie next to me on the sofa while I eat and not do more than glance at my food. Why? Because he's been taught that the only way to stand a chance of getting any food from my plate is to be lying quietly.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

DL1996 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Hey everyone,
> 
> ...


That's great to hear! I would definitely keep an eye on her for a few days just t make sure that the bone passed ok and isn't causing any problems. Especially watch her appetite and poo:wink:


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

*I am pleased Nina's OK - Kilo got a load of KFC bones once from under a bench and was fine too .*


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Glad to hear Nina seems okay. Spen's occasionally eaten cooked chicken bones he's found on the grass outside and been fine. Possibly because they're small enough that he just swallows them whole.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DL1996 said:


> UPDATE:
> ...
> 
> Nina is absolutley fine this morning!
> ...


Watch for:
- lack of / less appetite
- disinterest in usual activities [walks, play]
- ANY darkened color in stool, especially a *tarry* appearance [digested blood] 
or *red - "free" blood from the bowel / after the stomach*
- any pain if U touch her abdomen: flinch, wince, yelp, etc, or if her belly is STIFF when touched

It won't go amiss to take her rectal temp 2x each day, once before brekkie / after pee-trip,
& once after evening-pee / before bed; normal is ~100 to 101.2'F, depending upon the environs
& how active the dog has been - a running dog heats up. *102.2'F is fever -* head for the vet's,
call ahead to tell them she ate a poultry bone so they're prepped, just in case.

Abdominal surgery is serious, but also it's come a long way since my youth - if U catch it early, the odds
are good. Watch every stool like a hawk for color-change or straining.

Feeding extra bulk fiber can't hurt; i'd add 2-Tbsp or even 3 of canned pumpkin to the dog's meals,
each mealtime, if s/he were mine. :yesnod: Pumpkin is insoluble fiber, & will help cover pointy bits & wrap
them safely for exiting.

Hope within another 24-hours U see a long tidbit in a stool...


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm glad Nina's ok  just keep an eye on her for a few days.

I refuse to believe someone knows anything about dog behaviour when they corner a fear aggressive, known biter chihuahua and have it right between their spread legs :scared:. Last CM episode I watched.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

A-R,
this was the post that gave the impression that U can't count:


ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9.
> Never ...
> 
> 2.
> ...


i think U can see why?  & truly, i only meant it as a tease, & i'm sorry for upsetting U, i know it must be
very frustrating indeed, to learn that the very foundation of what U've learnt is rubbish, & must be torn up
and tossed aside, & then new foundation installed.

it's no different than putting one's house on a bad footer; the upper structure can't be more sound than
what it stands upon, & so painful as it is, it really is best to go back to bedrock & start over.

Thankfully, U weren't hoodwinked into shoving Ur dog around, dragging her by her neck when she didn't
want to go ______ , jerking the leash, using a prong-collar or battery-operated one, closing her
airway with an infinite-slip collar, rolling her onto her back & pinning her threateningly, etc. So U *don't*
have a dog who's untrusting, wary, & unsure of Ur intentions when U come close to her; that's good! :thumbsup:

There's are many folks here who are more than happy to offer links to books, articles, practical how-to,
step-by-step directions, videos, & more.

When i began training dogs over 40-years ago, the only way to learn was with a mentor - luckily,
mine was very demanding of her human students, but firm & fair with the dogs; she DID require
that all dogs be 6-MO or over, & ALL dogs wear a choke-chain for training classes, but she was nowhere
near as harsh & heavy-handed as Mr Millan can be seen to be, starting in 2006, 42-years later.

I haven't used a choke-chain since i turned 21-YO; nor a prong-collar, nor a battery-run one.
And i work with "bad" dogs: i do B-Mod, nothing else. To paraphrase Ted Turner, head behaviorist at
SeaWorld, "if we can teach a killer-whale to pee in a cup, surely U can teach Ur dog without aversives".

There's nothing we "need" aversive tools or coercive means, to accomplish. Literally, the sky is the limit;
if a dog is CAPABLE of doing X, physically & mentally, then we humans can teach it motivationally, without
any use of physical punishment, emotional intimidation, or coercion of any sort. It's easy, just slice the goal
behavior into simple steps, teach each step, & build on it. [For complex chains, it's best to teach in reverse
order, teaching the END behavior 1st, then the next-to-end, & so on - such as Fetch, where we teach "hold" 
& "drop" before we teach "chase" & "bring".
But that's just details.]

Ur Ridgie can become a word-class performer & very reliable, without ever hearing a choke-chain rattle,
or the warning-beep of a battery-collar, or ever feeling a jerk on her neck. :yesnod: Yup - really.
.
.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

DL1996 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Hey everyone,
> 
> ...


Glad Nina is doing okay. Cooked bones are less digestible than raw bones, so unfortunately blockages or trauma to the gastrointestinal walls can sometimes occur.

leashedForLife's post above contains good advice, which I shan't repeat.

Make sure you call the vet sooner rather than later if you have any concerns - they can feel her abdomen, take her temp and check up her bottom, and if necessary they can X-ray her tum to see if and where the bones are present.

Hope she goes on okay xxxx

As for the OTHER subject in this thread, I feel a bit bewildered by all of this dominance/pack theory discussion.

I am the first to say that I am NOT an expert - amateur or otherwise - in canine behaviour. But I DO know that the pack theory is outdated these days. I was disappointed that ActiveRidgeback was spouting it, particularly in such a beligerent and downright unpleasant fashion. But hats off to him for realising he has been taught incorrectly and apologising for his comments - respect for that, sir. :thumbup:


----------



## Arcwarp (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm pleased your dog is okay! Hopefully next time it won't be something so scary they swallow.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

I might have skipped a few pages but the important thing is that Nina is ok and that ignorance has been overcome by education.

The big reason we are always told not to feed cooked bones, especially poultry, is simply that cooking dries them out and makes them brittle, so they shatter rather than break and leave sharp edges than can pierce the throat or digestive system. Swallowing a bone whole (big dog/small bone) obviously negates most of this particular risk. There are other risks to do with digestion but she should be fine in a day or two.

As for the member struggling with pack theory (ActiveRidgeback ?) , look up Zak George on YouTube, not really for any specific techniques that he uses, more for where he talks about building a relationship with your dog and working with them to achieve a goal together. Your dog is the best teacher you will ever have. Train with love not fear people, not only does it work better, its also a lot more fun!


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Glad to hear that the OPs dog is fine. Im sure everybodys dog has found/stolen cooked bones from somewhere at some point. Mostly they pass it without trouble.
And can I just say that I can totally drop something and my lot will leave it (mainly coz I squeel like an insane and very loud foghorn before I say 'leave' and it freaks them right out!LOL). But if I was to leave a plate on the coffee table and walk out of the room for any length of time??....
well, they're not idiots!

and AR? just remember that there is no such thing as a perfect dog and you can always learn something new!


----------



## MrsPurrfect (May 12, 2012)

Am so glad that Nina is alright. What a little devil 

I have had two dogs and they were both totally different regarding food. Benji would not touch anything unless it was in his dish and he knew it was for him. I was able to leave food out right in front of him and he would not touch it. However Max was an outright optimist and if he could manage to sneak food he would and as far as he was concerned any dropped food was fair game 

I trained them both exactly the same but they were both their own characters.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Thorne said:


> Articles for... anyone... interested in the "pack-leader theory".
> 
> From a peer-reviewed ethology journal: http://www.animalsandsociety.com/assets/library/205_s15327604jaws07047.pdf
> "Pack Theory & Dog Social Behavior", PDF


GREAT article - short, clear, good references, & it describes much of what i do, & how i do it.
:thumbup: Thanks, Thorne!

These are good, too - but the one above is new to me. 


> Continued:
> 
> Another peer-reviewed study:
> Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat -- ScienceDaily
> ...


I'll be sharing Ms K's summary widely. :thumbup1:
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> ...the important thing is that Nina is ok, & that ignorance has been overcome by education.
> 
> The big reason we are always told not to feed cooked bones, especially poultry, is... that cooking dries them out
> & makes them brittle, so they shatter [with] sharp edges than can pierce the throat or digestive system.
> ...


beef bones & other bones don't break with the same wicked points; it's just poultry & pork that do, so duck,
goose, chicken, pheasant, etc - any BIRD - & pork [pig] bones are never given, after cooking - no matter
what kind of cooking, fried, baked, roasted, doesn't matter.

That said, certain kinds of steak-bones are also very hazardous - a BLADE bone from a T-bone steak
is super-sharp, & can easily cut calloused human-hands, so would make easy work of delicate internal organs!

Basically, stick to raw bones [U can always freeze them, then thaw to room-temp, to kill bacteria], & use
thick-walled, commercially sterilized beef, lamb, etc, for chewing or stuffing safely.


Jasper's Bloke said:


> As for the member struggling with pack theory... look up Zak George on YouTube, not really for any specific
> techniques... more for where he talks about building a relationship with your dog and working with them to achieve
> a goal together.
> 
> ...


i really, really wish i could endorse Zak George - but i can't. 

he's very pushy & intimidating toward the dogs; take a look at the contrast between his version of
the ONE THING THAT DOGS MUST LEARN, & the same as done by KikoPup, AKA Emily Larlham - there's
a world of difference in their interactions with the dogs, & in the dogs' responses. That Zak doesn't use
choke-chains or prong-collars or shock in any form, doesn't make him "coercion-free".

But Zak isn't without competition on UTube; Emily AKA KikoPup, Jean Donaldson, DVM Yin,
Leslie McDevitt, the Dog-Giggler, PhD-behaviorist Trish McConnell, the UK's Multianimalcrackers & also
DomesticatedManners, are all there - plus the many clips from Karen Pryor, Barb Handelman, & others
who are professionals using genuinely force-free methods.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DomesticatedManners/about

DON'T _ BE _ LED _ ASTRAY by such arse-wipes as the founder of Sit-means-S*it, who has set up his videos
to come up on clicker-training searches; he doesn't teach his franchisees to use a clicker, he teaches them
to use a battery-powered collar with electrodes for all training & B-Mod; he just wants the chance to blow
some smoke & wave scarves in front of a mirror, & magically pretend there's nothing aversive about shock.
 IM full & very-frank O, he's delusional - feel free to try a shock-device on Ur own neck, or just watch
the literally hundreds of clips that show many, many humans reacting loudly & often obscenely to the "tickle",
"stim", or "tap" of a battery-collar. :001_tongue: WARNING: most aren't safe for work or kids - 
the language is profane, scatological, or abusive toward the person pressing the button.

of course, as dogs can't talk, Sit-Means-S*it doesn't have to listen to their opinions - & doesn't. :mad5:

Check out the BROWN-BAG LUNCH series - i posted all the links to that & more, on this thread:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/88630-dog-body-language-why-matters-so-much.html

happy learning, & happy training! :thumbup1:
.
.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i really, really wish i could endorse Zak George - but i can't.
> 
> he's very pushy & intimidating toward the dogs; take a look at the contrast between his version of
> the ONE THING THAT DOGS MUST LEARN, & the same as done by KikoPup, AKA Emily Larlham - there's
> ...


As I said, my reference to Zak was not about his specific methods. Personally I find him far too busy and bouncy to encourage calm behaviour and focus when training. What I do like is the way he talks about building a relationship with a dog and letting the dog guide you as to what works best for them. He often talks about using your dogs 'currency' which refers to the rewards that your dog value, which makes sense as it can vary greatly from one individual to another.

Everyone uses coercion in training, that's the point, even in positive training. There cannot be a positive without a negative, if you do this you get the reward, positive, but if you don't do it then you don't get the reward, which is negative. The important message is that a negative does not have to mean pain, fear or force.

Speaking very generally, I am extremely jaded with this trainer vs that trainer and this method is better than that school of thought. People should spend less time looking for a quick fix on YouTube and more time learning to understand their dogs.

As for the bones, totally agree, but this post was not about the best bones to feed, it was about a bone that had been eaten accidentally.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Everyone uses coercion in training, that's the point, even in positive training. There cannot be a positive without
> a negative: if you do this you get the reward... but if you don't do it, ...you don't get the reward, which is negative.
> 
> The important message is that a negative does not have to mean pain, fear or force.


Due to the all-too-easy confusion of "positive" as in conversation & "positive" as used in behavior-science
[maths term, means "ADD something"] i don't use 'positive' unless it's as an adjective modifying 'reinforce'
or 'punish' - that way, there's no possible way to misconstrue it. 

I don't think FAILING to reward the behavior we aren't looking for, constitutes "coercion". If we want the dog
to sit, & instead the dog lies-down, nothing happens. No collar-jerks, no scolding, no hard look; nada, zippo.

If the dog sits, Yummy!... rewards happen - it could be a brief tug with a toy, just as easily as a treat,
or the car-door opens to allow the dog in / out, or the house door ditto, or the leash comes off at the park,
Or _____ , or _______ , or ________ . SO LONG AS it's a happy thing for the dog, anything can be a reward.

But "failing to reward" isn't coercion; there are no bad consequences to unwanted behavior, & the dog
doesn't expect non-stop food for breathing - we need to COMMUNICATE what we want, & rewarding what we
want is the easiest & simplest way to communicate which actions are desirable, at least here & now.

If U're using pure shaping with a marker & the dog gets stuck, STOP. Don't go on, allowing the dog to get
more & more frustrated; take a break, figure out a new approach, slice the goal behavior finer, something.


Jasper's Bloke said:


> Speaking very generally, I'm extremely jaded with this trainer vs that trainer & "this method is better than that"...
> People should spend less time looking for a quick fix on YouTube, & more time learning to understand their dogs.


i'm sorry U've become disgusted with the ongoing comparisons, but it's not going to stop anytime soon.
Mr George promotes himself heavily as a positive-reinforcement trainer; i haven't heard him speak,
i've only watched his clips, & didn't want to have yet another not-so-motivational influence on
Active-Ridgeback's practice. If Zak speaks well, wonderful! - but i did want to add a note of caution, AND
alternatives, of whom there are many.

also, i wasn't offering "a quick fix", i was trying to offer an education. 

The dog-body-language sticky has entire 30-minute presentations, plus books, training clips,
photo links, article links, & more. A half-hour seminar with slides & video is more than 'a quick fix'.

The more we learn about dogs, the better trainers we become. :thumbup1: For that matter, many trainers
learn a LOT about training dogs by training other species - such as chickens, for instance.


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I find that dog who are fed on dry chemicals oops I mean kibble is more likely to pounce on a tasty chicken bone because its a rare treat if you fed raw much lower chance of seeing that bone disappear


What a load of rubbish


----------



## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Surely there's a higher chance as they know what to do with it active ridgeback seems very self righteous raw is all well and good but not all dogs and owners suit it so maybe a dialing down of the guilt trip is in order.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i've seen dogs thrive on all sorts of diets, including dreadful cheap carb-based cr*pola that sells for $20 / 40# bag;

some dogs have extremely-specific needs & MUST have ___ , or must NOT have ____ , due to age,
intolerances or allergies, gut-microbe problems, skin issues, & so on. Other dogs can eat roadkill or meat that
stinks & has green spots, & apparently have cast-iron guts, 'cuz they're fine & looking for more. [Blecchh.]

i've seen dogs scarf down maggot-riddled pigeons, flyblown bunnies, horse-apples, & just plain garbage,
left to their own dubious devices. We humans have our prejudices; personally, i think U should feed Ur dog
the best that U can afford, & whatever food that suits that particular dog; that might be duck & potato kibble,
or raw chicken & grain-free carbs, or canned brand-name, or dehydrated-plus-meat-of-choice - whatever it is,
their COAT should be healthy, ditto skin; their EYES bright, EARS free of goop, paws don't itch / not pink or puffy,
they should be active, on the LEAN side of fit-not-fat, with lots of muscle palpable AND palpable ribs.

If the dog is all that, the owner is doing well by that dog - whatever their diet might be.

How much U want to spend on dog-food depends in part on how much U have to spend; street-dogs get by on
found garbage & the occasional donation from a pitying passerby. Dogs aren't all "required" to eat raw for health;
it's just one among many options.

I personally never recommend Ol' Roy, but i know houndsmen Down South who think it's wonderful, mainly
cuz it's cheap, & they tend to own a plethora of hounds - which they weed annually, so the dogs are cheap,
too - easy come by, easy to let go.  They keep them in open pens, often with no shelter, out in the woods
where the constant barking doesn't get complaints; they feed them from bulk-bins bolted to the fence, & the
water is in a trough, full of mosquito-wigglers & algae. I wouldn't keep a pig in those conditions, let alone a dog -
but they do. ::Shrug::

I try to strike a balance between feeding a dog filet-mignon & snails-in-garlic-butter, & feeding Ol' Roy -
which IMO is sawdust with some meat-byproducts & rendered grease. [Gag...] There's got to be middle ground.
.
.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ActiveRidgeback said:


> I find that dog who are fed on dry chemicals oops I mean kibble is more likely to pounce on a tasty chicken bone because its a rare treat if you fed raw much lower chance of seeing that bone disappear


Oh, really?

Rosie has IBD and can't eat kibble. In fact, there are few things she can eat.

I did try her on a raw diet for a while, but she can't tolerate bone or offal.

Nowadays, she lives on beef and chicken, so a chicken bone is not a "rare treat" for her.

Not all kibble is "rubbish". I would never say that, even though I can't feed Rosie kibble.

Please accept that your way is not necessarily the only way.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Glad your dog is ok, OP. 

Leashedforlife: I often feed raw pork bones with no ill effects.



ActiveRidgeback said:


> 9. Never feed him scrapes from the table. Try to feed yourself before you feed your dogs. If that is not practical, *he can only eat when you give him permission to eat.
> *
> 
> 2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dogs food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).
> ...


What a load of old crap.



ActiveRidgeback said:


> I find that dog who are fed on dry chemicals oops I mean kibble is more likely to pounce on a tasty chicken bone because its a rare treat if you fed raw much lower chance of seeing that bone disappear


Tosh. There are good kibbles out there but clearly you have done zero research. My lot would snatch anything from the floor had they not been taught manners.

Why are you so aggressive? I hate to tell you, but any courses you attend before you mature are worth nothing because you cannot evaluate properly and please do publish the name of these courses (online?).

Let's face it, 12 year olds as you claim to have been when you started, simply can't attend these courses, unless you mean puppy classes or something. At 18, love and learn and accept that actually, your elders do know better because of their much wonder experience.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i really, really wish i could endorse Zak George - but i can't.
> 
> he's very pushy & intimidating toward the dogs; take a look at the contrast between his version of
> the ONE THING THAT DOGS MUST LEARN, & the same as done by KikoPup, AKA Emily Larlham - there's
> ...


I'm so glad I'm not the only one uncomfortable with him. I can't even put my finger on exactly what it is I don't like but I don't like the way he trains. And I find him very unprofessional the way he'll publicly slate certain trainers. I'm sure others have their opinions on certain trainers but they don't tend to bad mouth them publicly.

ETA: I also feed pork bones regularly. As do many other raw feeders.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

zedder said:


> Surely there's a higher chance as they know what to do with it active ridgeback seems very self righteous raw is all well and good but not all dogs and owners suit it so maybe a dialing down of the guilt trip is in order.


Don't know whether knowing what to do with it or not makes any odds to my boys; especially Kilo. Given free rein they would be scavengers extraordinaire as most RRs are reputed to be - totally, totally greedy!! In fact I often wonder why I spend my time feeding the diet that I feel is the healthiest for them and no other "nasties" when Kilo delights in sometimes eating dog poo (only the VILE, orange kind ), human poo :eek6:.both Rudi and Kilo would most likely eat anything within reason.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> Leashedforlife: I often feed raw pork bones with no ill effects.


just a Q, hun -
is GB / UK Trichinosis-free. or is it exceedingly rare, there?

in the USA, it's not common, but it's not gone by any means;
in Texas, Calif, NM & Arizona, importations from Mexico were
thought to keep it going, by reintroducing it, here.

it's not the raw pork-bones that are the worry, but the Trich-parasite,
which encysts in muscle [in pigs & their wild relatives, & bears].
Consuming underdone Trich-laced pork can make the eater ill - when 
the parasites hatch in the non-host species.

the folks i know in the USA who feed pork, feed it cooked & trash
the bones. Raw feeders here tend to use beef, lamb, & chicken.
Some feed exotic meats - beaver [canned or frozen], kangaroo,
bison, etc.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DL1996 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Hey everyone,
> 
> ...


I am glad she is fine but honestly lots of dogs eat chicken bones regularly with no ill effects. I have a friend that feeds cooked chicken with bones every day. I have one of her dogs to stay so she takes the bones out as she knows I do not want to feed them. She accepts my viewpoint and I have to accept hers.
On the other hand I have another friend whose dog stole a chicken carcass and died shortly afterwards.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

It's rare but not unheard of.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> It's rare but not unheard of.


This. I was told freezing kills the parasite anyway. There's also a disease can be caught from beef but nobody ever talks about that one yet I've been told I'm killing my dog for feeding pork. I remember one poor woman on a FB group here being distraught because her dog had managed to steal some cooked pork (just meat and not a huge amount) and people were telling her the dog would be seriously ill and needed rushing to an emergency vet because pork kills dogs  Apparently you never get pork used in pet food for that reason. Even though there are quite a few pork ones out there.

And these same people who say pork (cooked or raw) kills dogs are usually happy to feed pigs ears :lol:


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Some years ago my SIL and I were out walking our dogs through some woodland. It was just after Christmas, but given that we were miles away from anywhere I was a bit taken aback to discover my two Goldens and her lab busily tucking into a turkey carcass which must have gone walkabouts from the bin with the local fox. We finally dragged them away and all three dogs were none the worse although we did keep a wary eye on them for a few days.
Hope the OP's dog continues to be ok.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Glad OPs dog is ok, any updates??

As for the kibble fed dogs jumping on a chicken bone because kibble is so rubbish  my boy is kibble fed because we live in a flat (completely carpeted) and he has weak teeth, my cat stole a drumstick bone from our kfc the other night (while we were asleep) as I left it in a box on the side to throw in the morning and about and hour after we got up I noticed it on the stairs which Apollo had been up and down a couple times and he hadn't touched it  (thank god). I think she was secretly trying to do him in on the sly, I don't know many dogs that wouldn't pick up a chicken bone when given the opportunity but I'm bloody glad he didn't.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> ...I was told freezing kills the [Trich] parasite...


does it? That would be nice! --- Must it freeze to 0'C, or 0'F?
& for how long? 24-hours, or more? [If U don't know, that's OK, hun, just on the off chance U do.  ]


Sarah1983 said:


> There's also a disease can be caught from beef but nobody ever talks about that one...


Mad cow AKA sheep-scrapie AKA prion disease? :huh: Or something else?



Sarah1983 said:


> ...these same ppl who say pork (cooked or raw) kills dogs, are usually happy to feed pigs' ears. :lol:


i tell my clients to avoid them like the plague - they're nothing but FAT, deep-fat fried FAT, & some nice
crispy cartilage - cr*p calories, pure junk-food. :nonod:

Besides which, pigs' ears are notorious for _E. coli_ outbreaks & recalls. If U DO feed 'em,
GLOVE UP before U handle one! - & wash hands after, before touching anything, especially food,
Ur face / eyes / nose / mouth, kitchen counters, etc.
.
.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> just a Q, hun -
> is GB / UK Trichinosis-free. or is it exceedingly rare, there?


The UK is currently Trichonosis free although testing is carried out including amongst the small wild boar population.

It's interesting to note that trichinosis is not a single type and there are several. Some can survive freezing for years. I believe that's one of the reasons bear meat is frequently talked about as being out of the question for raw feeders in the States. It will survive no matter how long it's frozen.

I believe the US department of agriculture has the following guidelines though for pork based trichinosis.

5°F (-15°c) for minimum 20-30 days
-10° (-24°C) for minimum 10-20 days
-20° (-28°c) for minimum 6 to 12 days

That's after taking it down to a minimum of -40°F (-40°C) in the first place.

Don't know how old that information is though.

Edit: http://faculty.uml.edu/rhochberg/ho...matodes/World Distribution of Trichinella.pdf may be of interest when talking about Trichinosis although haven't read in in detail myself.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> does it? That would be nice! --- Must it freeze to 0'C, or 0'F?
> & for how long? 24-hours, or more? [If U don't know, that's OK, hun, just on the off chance U do.  ]
> 
> Mad cow AKA sheep-scrapie AKA prion disease? :huh: Or something else?
> ...


Not sure of exact temperature but apparently freezing for 3 weeks kills the parasite.

I can't for the life of me remember what it was called that can be caught from beef but will have a look this afternoon and see whether I can find it. I only came across it by chance but it stuck with me because there's all this talk about pork and it was the first time I'd heard it about beef. I think goat meat was also mentioned too. Only a small risk of it and not something I'm concerned about personally but it strikes me as odd that people go on about diseases from pork as though that's the only one that can be a problem. Perhaps it stems from the US raw feeders since pork is apparently not that safe over there?

I don't feed pigs ears myself. Not the sort you buy in the pet shop anyway, if they're attached to the raw pigs head then fine. It just amuses me that those who go on about how pork, raw or cooked, will kill your dog are happy to give pigs ears.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Mad cow AKA sheep-scrapie AKA prion disease? :huh: Or something else?





Sarah1983 said:


> I can't for the life of me remember what it was called that can be caught from beef but will have a look this afternoon and see whether I can find it.


Is it Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) otherwise known as Mad Cow Disease? In humans it's known as "new variant CreutzfeldtJakob disease" (nvCJD). It's passed on to humans by eating food contaminated with brain, spinal cord or digestive tract of infected beef carcasses. You don't hear much about it now, I think that's because beef now has to come from cattle below a certain age, BSE has a long incubation period and usually shows up at around 4-5 years old. I think after the BSE outbreak cattle had to be slaughtered by 30 months old, not sure if it's the same now.

[I had a lovely neighbour die from CJD but not the nvCJD, she had Sporadic CJD which is not connected to diseased cows but to an abnormal change to normal brain protein. Very sad.]


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think they consider trichinosis eradicated from most commercial herds in the UK so pork is safe.

We've mostly gotten a handle on bse as well, horrible disease my old neighbour's boyfriend was one of the few to survive more than a few years and he was basically comatose for 10 years


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Neosporosis. http://www.liv.ac.uk/testapet/pdf/infocus_C_Neo.pdf

I had to trawl through my posts on another forum to find what it was called although I could remember symptoms  Not just cattle it can be caught from and can be caught from contact with them as well as eating the raw meat it seems.

As I say, it doesn't seem something that's a huge risk but then neither is trichinosis in the UK yet people still go on and on and on about it lol.


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