# Pugs and Jugs



## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

*My Friends brothers Pug had JUGS!!

Minnie gave birth to two little Adorable Jack russle x Pug.

they are soo cute and are doing very well minnie is really tired

Hope you like the Pics

xx

2 hours Old suckling mum:









One of the puppies:









Tired Minnie after the birth:








​*


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

arent they COOT!!


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> arent they COOT!!


Where are they????????? I cant see anything
Mary
x


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## kazza (May 2, 2008)

dont see any pics


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Why would you want to cross a pug with a jrt...

Oh & i don't see any pic's either.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Dingle said:


> Why would you want to cross a pug with a jrt...


The only reason I can think of for breeding them would be for money, so I sure hope these pups are going for a very low price  or free to a good home.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

happysaz133 said:


> The only reason I can think of for breeding them would be for money, so I sure hope these pups are going for a very low price  or free to a good home.


the mind boggles at times...

On a lighter note, my mrs has jugs too...


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## iwantadog (Sep 24, 2008)

On a lighter note, my mrs has jugs too...


ROFL!!! Oh you rude man!!!!  Hehehehhheeeeeeeee!!!!!


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> Where are they????????? I cant see anything
> Mary
> x


Here are some Jug pics that can get past the filter.


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Aww, they are little darlings aren't they. I love the second picture, it is adorable.
Chris


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

iwantadog said:


> On a lighter note, my mrs has jugs too...
> 
> ROFL!!! Oh you rude man!!!!  Hehehehhheeeeeeeee!!!!!


Ah yes jugs. Those things in the kitchen, you mean? You know the ones you fill up with water?


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm not going into a crossbreed debate because they're here now. They are very cute.


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

Sophiex said:


> I'm not going into a crossbreed debate because they're here now. They are very cute.


 cute 

I will agree with you on the crossbreed debate though

Now here is cute..










Oh look a real pug puppy lol


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Here are some Jug pics that can get past the filter.


I must admit they do look very cute, wonder what adults look like though.
A couple of them look rough coated.
Mary
x


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

I must admit they do look very cute, wonder what adults look like though.
A couple of them look rough coated.
Mary

2 smoothies, 2 mop-heads and an in-betweeny. Pretty even split twixt mum and dad really.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Hessian said:


> I must admit they do look very cute, wonder what adults look like though.
> A couple of them look rough coated.
> Mary
> 
> 2 smoothies, 2 mop-heads and an in-betweeny. Pretty even split twixt mum and dad really.


did you breed the pups?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Dingle said:


> did you breed the pups?


Yes I did. The mum is my little rough coat JRT Bonny. The dad was a hired gun Pug. Sorry for the delay in replying but watching the footie at the same time.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Tigerkatz said:


> cute
> 
> I will agree with you on the crossbreed debate though
> 
> ...


I prefer the real thing any day, do you breed them, ive always wanted one but the bf wont let me have one


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you  My children show them and yes we do have a litter once in a while. This lil girl is 4 weeks old tomorrow (2 weeks old in the picture) 

Lots of time, work and effort in bettering what we have already...... Gorgeous pugs!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

they are really cute with their longer muzzels (sp)


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Yes I did. The mum is my little rough coat JRT Bonny. The dad was a hired gun Pug. Sorry for the delay in replying but watching the footie at the same time.


If the pug is the Dad, how come 'Minnie' is lying with the pups in the first pic?


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

Dingle said:


> Why would you want to cross a pug with a jrt...
> 
> Oh & i don't see any pic's either.


jrt puppies are approx £80 (give or take)to sell as puppies... and pug cross jrt are sadly priced way over what they are worth  so this could sadly be the answer


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Tigerkatz said:


> jrt puppies are approx £80 (give or take)to sell as puppies... and pug cross jrt are sadly priced way over what they are worth  so this could sadly be the answer


What I fail to understand is why someone who must have paid top money for a male Pug would even consider allowing it to be mated to a JRT, or any other bred for that matter
Mary
x


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

a £100+ in pocket can coerse many to do something that some of us may not understand lol


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## garydogz (May 16, 2008)

happysaz133 said:


> If the pug is the Dad, how come 'Minnie' is lying with the pups in the first pic?


Sorry? Who is Minnie?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> What I fail to understand is why someone who must have paid top money for a male Pug would even consider allowing it to be mated to a JRT, or any other bred for that matter
> Mary
> x


On behalf of my little Bonny I would like to object to that remark.http://www.petforums.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

totally confused... who is Bonny?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Tigerkatz said:


> jrt puppies are approx £80 (give or take)to sell as puppies... and pug cross jrt are sadly priced way over what they are worth  so this could sadly be the answer


Quite right- a JRT can be found for around £100 but the point is that these are not JRT's. A Pug will set you back nearer a thousand but these are not Pugs. A pup is worth what someone is willing to pay for the one that they want. A personal decision for each individual.


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Hessian said:


> On behalf of my little Bonny I would like to object to that remark.http://www.petforums.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif


You can object all you like I still don't understand it. BY the way who's Bonny
Mary
x


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Quite right- a JRT can be found for around £100 but the point is that these are not JRT's. A Pug will set you back nearer a thousand but these are not Pugs. A pup is worth what someone is willing to pay for the one that they want. A personal decision for each individual.


Or, on the other hand, a pup is worth what it cost to rear it to weaning.


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Tigerkatz said:


> totally confused... who is Bonny?


Bonny is the mum of the Jugs in the pictures. She is a rough coat JRT. A tiny little girl who is always there - or at least close by. Real good company.


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Quite right- a JRT can be found for around £100 but the point is that these are not JRT's. A Pug will set you back nearer a thousand but these are not Pugs. A pup is worth what someone is willing to pay for the one that they want. A personal decision for each individual.


Quite right they are not a jrt... and not a pug.. just a mongrel
I totally agree lol and again you are right.. I suppose if people are willing to pay those sort of prices for a mongrel who are any of us to argue


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

jackson said:


> Or, on the other hand, a pup is worth what it cost to rear it to weaning.


 An interesting point but how would that explain the price difference between a JRT and a Pug? Do people take their Pug pups to the Savoy for their meals?


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

This thread looks like turning into another argument about pedigrees versus crossbreeds I think we have done that one to death

But to be honest if someone doesn't know the difference between breeding and rearing a good quality Pug litter and having a litter of JRT there is no point in trying to explain it
Mary
x
x


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Tigerkatz said:


> Quite right they are not a jrt... and not a pug.. just a mongrel
> I totally agree lol and again you are right.. I suppose if people are willing to pay those sort of prices for a mongrel who are any of us to argue


Just so as I get this right, are we agreeing here? I know what you wrote but I can HEAR you saying the "just a mongrel" bit.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Hessian said:


> An interesting point but how would that explain the price difference between a JRT and a Pug? Do people take their Pug pups to the Savoy for their meals?


For a start, the health testing involved in breeding Pugs and the high need for cesaerian section births adds quite a lot onto the cost of having a litter. KC registering the pups, keeping up an Affix etc all cost aswell.


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> This thread looks like turning into another argument about pedigrees versus crossbreeds I think we have done that one to death
> 
> But to be honest if someone doesn't know the difference between breeding and rearing a good quality Pug litter and having a litter of JRT there is no point in trying to explain it
> Mary
> ...


You are probably right and it's getting late - busy day tomorrow.


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Just so as I get this right, are we agreeing here? I know what you wrote but I can HEAR you saying the "just a mongrel" bit.


I believe us to be in agreeance.... 
"Just a mongrel" (dictionary terms- also called a mutt or a mixed breed of dog)
I breed pedigree dogs and not mongrels.. which there is a difference. So yes a pug cross jrt is just a mongrel by dictionary terms. No disagreeance here..


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Please don't turn a happy event into a cross breed debate. This is a pet forum, where all dogs are welcome. IMO We should be happy that they are healthy and the mum is well. They are beautiful little puppies and Hessian has every right to be proud of them.
Lets welcome them. 
Chris


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2008)

As cute as they are did u health test both parents? Or was it just matter of a quick money making scheme?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hessian said:


> I must admit they do look very cute, wonder what adults look like though.
> A couple of them look rough coated.
> Mary
> 
> 2 smoothies, 2 mop-heads and an in-betweeny. Pretty even split twixt mum and dad really.


*They are so cute...you must be proud of mum 
And yes any new life is great.*


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> Please don't turn a happy event into a cross breed debate. This is a pet forum, where all dogs are welcome. IMO We should be happy that they are healthy and the mum is well. They are beautiful little puppies and Hessian has every right to be proud of them.
> Lets welcome them.
> Chris


Yes, it is a pet forum, but I don't see the problem in tactfully promoting responsible breeding, as there are enough 'pets' in rescue. I do believe there is a difference between someone posting that they have bought a puppy, and someone breeding them.

No-one knows if these puppies are healthy, even if they appear to be now. I hope they are.

I would be interested in what the perceived benefits in crossing a pug and a Jack russel are?


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## maisy (Oct 20, 2008)

Aww they're soo cute bless em


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jackson said:


> For a start, the health testing involved in breeding Pugs and the high need for cesaerian section births adds quite a lot onto the cost of having a litter. KC registering the pups, keeping up an Affix etc all cost aswell.


nothing to do with this thread but im confused again  .... because when i stated on another thread that pugs do often need a cesaerian so many members kept telling me how wrong iam with this opinion


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

What I think------------

So, why are back yard breeders a problem? Well, they just breed dogs for the sake of it. They may have a sweet pet they want to try and reproduce or they think that their dogs are quality because they have papers and/or are registered with some registry. They think maybe they can make a few pounds selling pups, etc. They just put out dogs without real consideration for the future of not only the breed but the puppies produced.

Often, BYBs breed dogs with faults. This perpetuates fault and problems in the breed. They do nothing to prove their dogs are of sound temperament and that they are breeding good representatives of the breed, etc. They just breed. And often, they do not even breed purebreds. Some BYBs "create" neat sounding things and think they are breeds - like Dalimers, Cavapoo's, Jugs. Well, they are mutts - crosses of Dalmatians and Weimeraners, Cavalier and Poodles, Pugs and JRT, nothing more than a back yarder trying to make a buck


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Think this thread has gone off topic...can we not just be pleased and leave it at that?*


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi there. Thanks to Janice, Maisy and Chris.
What I think..............


Who cares?

Say hello to Chester and Toffee.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Dah bless..the one one the right Chester? what sad eyes lol....
by the way ow are the pups?:*


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

So what was the reason for the crossing of the 2 breeds?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Dah bless..the one one the right Chester? what sad eyes lol....
> by the way ow are the pups?:*


Chester is the b/w Springbatt. If you look in those eyes too long you would cut your wrist!
Pups are tickety-boo although Toffee (the Ba-Shar in the pic) has blotted his copybook recently with a chewing incident. The Toffee pic is from the new owners who are supplying feedback for me.


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Dingle said:


> So what was the reason for the crossing of the 2 breeds?


Hybrid vigour


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Springbatt & bar-shar what on earth are they crosses of?

So you breed all these crosses & give them silly names for what?

Improvement of the breed maybe or a few quid?

Do you bother health testing prior to breeding ? if so which tests?


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## JasperCarrot (Apr 22, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Chester is the b/w Springbatt. If you look in those eyes too long you would cut your wrist!
> Pups are tickety-boo although Toffee (the Ba-Shar in the pic) has blotted his copybook recently with a chewing incident. The Toffee pic is from the new owners who are supplying feedback for me.


Hi , Very cute dogs by the way 

But I am confused, do you breed quite a few different dogs?

Because you said that you have just had a litter of Pug X Jack Russel's, then you have just put some pictures up of a Springebatt (?) and a Ba-Shar(?) , also you wrote

'The Toffee pic is from the new owners who are supplying feedback for me'

Just a bit confused is all 

also is a Springebatt a English Springer Spaniel X Basset Hound ?

what is a Ba- Shar ? Sharpei X something ?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

JasperCarrot said:


> Hi , Very cute dogs by the way
> 
> But I am confused, do you breed quite a few different dogs?
> 
> ...


Yeah. I get confused myself sometimes. In order - yes I do breed. The Toffee pic (and its actually a girl - said I get confused didn't I) is from a litter sold back in the summer (remember that?). I asked the new owners to keep me informed as to the progress - or not - that she was making and they sent this pic with one of their e-mails.
Yes a Springbatt is a Springer/Bassett cross
A Ba-Shar is a Shar-Pei/ Bassett cross.
Should all be as clear as mud now.


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## JasperCarrot (Apr 22, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Yeah. I get confused myself sometimes. In order - yes I do breed. The Toffee pic (and its actually a girl - said I get confused didn't I) is from a litter sold back in the summer (remember that?). I asked the new owners to keep me informed as to the progress - or not - that she was making and they sent this pic with one of their e-mails.
> Yes a Springbatt is a Springer/Bassett cross
> A Ba-Shar is a Shar-Pei/ Bassett cross.
> Should all be as clear as mud now.


I understand now thank you 

2 more questions ( haha im nosey I know ! ) 
how many dogs do you own , in your home ?
also do you use stud dogs or are they your own dogs ?

you obviously dont have to answer them if you dont want to


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

So basically what you are saying is you are breeding cross breeds regular, giving them silly names & selling them to naive fashoin conscious folk who know no better.
Do you tell the buyers they are the latest in thing & charge very high prices.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Two comments spring to mind:

1. wind up
2. puppy farmer

Not sure which yet...


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Dingle said:


> Two comments spring to mind:
> 
> 1. wind up
> 2. puppy farmer
> ...


You forgot your typical BYB.

Alot of Breeders do not consider the construction of each individual there breeding which could cause a considerable amount of problems when crossing two breeds,i.e back probems,problems with limbs,never mind these sort of things along with testing takes a back seat when there is money to be made from unsuspecting members of the public.


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks for sharing thier pics with us Hessian, I think they are beautiful.
Be proud. 
Chris


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Hi there. Thanks to Janice, Maisy and Chris.
> What I think..............Who cares?





Chris1 said:


> Thanks for sharing thier pics with us Hessian, I think they are beautiful.
> Be proud.
> Chris


I'm sorry Chris but how can you say this to some one, who by there own admission, presumably doesn't care, 'be proud', be damned 
I am cross with myself now because I was determined to ignore this thread, but I'm afraid I just cant abide this sort of attitude to dog breeding.
Of course they are beautiful, all puppies are beautiful that's not the issue here. 
This is my last comment on this thread, I am not visiting it again, too much like banging my head against a brick wall.
Mary
x


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Mary, Chris can say whatever she wants its an open forum!


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Yes if Chris wants to promote irresponsible breeding that's up to him...


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Hybrid vigour


pmsl HYBRID VIGOUR pmsl 
What a joke 
what health tests do u perform if any one your studs and bitches?


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Dingle said:


> Yes if Chris wants to promote irresponsible breeding that's up to him...


Yeah thats exactly what she was doing


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

Beautiful little pups, i love the look of all these crosses...my favourites were the Puggles someone posted a few weeks back :001_wub:


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

I am not promoting anything!!!!
I just get fed up with everything being turned into an argument about health tests and breeding. There is a dog breeding section on the forum and this part is for dog chat. Hessian posted the pictures for us to see. I have expressing an opinion that they appear to be beautiful little dogs and I would be proud of them. I have not and will not enter into an arguement about it.:nonod:
Chris


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> I am not promoting anything!!!!
> I just get fed up with everything being turned into an argument about health tests and breeding. There is a dog breeding section on the forum and this part is for dog chat. Hessian posted the pictures for us to see. I have expressing an opinion that they appear to be beautiful little dogs and I would be proud of them. I have not and will not enter into an arguement about it.:nonod:
> Chris


Well said Chris...every thread lately gets turned into the 'responsible breeding thread part 132'


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> I am not promoting anything!!!!
> I just get fed up with everything being turned into an argument about health tests and breeding. There is a dog breeding section on the forum and this part is for dog chat. Hessian posted the pictures for us to see. I have expressing an opinion that they appear to be beautiful little dogs and I would be proud of them. I have not and will not enter into an arguement about it.:nonod:
> Chris


So, if a puppy farmer came on here and said they had a litter of 'whatevers' , should we all just go 'ooh, they are gorgeous' or should we question their motives?

There are SO many dogs in rescue, 23,000 were put to sleep last year, so why on earth would someone breed what appears to be several litters per year, without a very, very good reason?


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

I think this is pretty unfair. Chris never mentioned any of you she simply said _her opinion_ that she thought they were cute and to be proud. She never told anyone else what to say... if you all want to question the breeder so be it, why bother focusing the argument on her?


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

The uk is in a recession so more and more dogs are being put into kennels or being pts because of health problems that cant be fixed again because people cant afford it, I am good friends with a rescue centre near me and the woman who runs it is in tears nearly everyday because people cant afford the health problems of those gorgeous little puppies who now turn out to be time bombs so i think it is pretty relevant when people are still flooding the market and clearly not giving a damn about the dogs!
But next time someone brags about breeding mutts i'll juct clap them on the back shall i? Doubt it!


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Jem said:


> The uk is in a recession so more and more dogs are being put into kennels or being pts because of health problems that cant be fixed again because people cant afford it, I am good friends with a rescue centre near me and the woman who runs it is in tears nearly everyday because people cant afford the health problems of those gorgeous little puppies who now turn out to be time bombs so i think it is pretty relevant when people are still flooding the market and clearly not giving a damn about the dogs!
> But next time someone brags about breeding mutts i'll juct clap them on the back shall i? Doubt it!


If that was aimed at me Jem I'm not saying anything about how the breeder should be treated. In fact personally I do not agree with him breeding so many litters. All I'm saying is I feel sorry for Chris who came on not wanting an argument and then she gets bombarded as if shes an unethical breeder herself


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> I think this is pretty unfair. Chris never mentioned any of you she simply said _her opinion_ that she thought they were cute and to be proud. She never told anyone else what to say... if you all want to question the breeder so be it, why bother focusing the argument on her?


I am happy to let people make their own comments, but why on earth shouldn't those of us who feel strongly about it be equally able to comment without the 'thought police' commenting on our posts? No-one has bee rude or personal.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> If that was aimed at me Jem I'm not saying anything about how the breeder should be treated. In fact personally I do not agree with him breeding so many litters. All I'm saying is I feel sorry for Chris who came on not wanting an argument and then she gets bombarded as if shes an unethical breeder herself


it wasn't aimed at u hun, its aimed at the breeder who comes on says a sentance then magically disappears again :rolleyes5:
I dont know anything about chris and im pretty sure i have never insulted her, my main gripe with this entire thread is a lot of people on here dont see this breeder as a problem (this again not aimed at u) xxx


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

jackson said:


> I am happy to let people make their own comments, but why on earth shouldn't those of us who feel strongly about it be equally able to comment without the 'thought police' commenting on our posts? No-one has bee rude or personal.


Of course you're free to say whatever you like... I understand what you are saying about these annoying "opinion police" on other threads but all I saw in this thread was chris saying the pups were cute and that was it! she only offered her opinion after she was accused of promoting unethical breeding which was not the case...

Anyway I'm out of this thread if the breeder aint around to explain himself we're all just gonna go round in circles!


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Jem said:


> it wasn't aimed at u hun, its aimed at the breeder who comes on says a sentance then magically disappears again :rolleyes5:
> I dont know anything about chris and im pretty sure i have never insulted her, my main gripe with this entire thread is a lot of people on here dont see this breeder as a problem (this again not aimed at u) xxx


Ok cheers mate np x


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Think this thread has gone off topic...can we not just be pleased and leave it at that?*


Pleased Oh Woop DE Doo I am over the moon


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

The dogs are here now, can we not just be thankful that nearly all of them arrived safe and sound?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Yeah. I get confused myself sometimes. In order - yes I do breed. The Toffee pic (and its actually a girl - said I get confused didn't I) is from a litter sold back in the summer (remember that?). I asked the new owners to keep me informed as to the progress - or not - that she was making and they sent this pic with one of their e-mails.
> Yes a Springbatt is a Springer/Bassett cross
> A Ba-Shar is a Shar-Pei/ Bassett cross.
> Should all be as clear as mud now.


Very clear Puppyfarmer!!!! Is that the answer. Going by the nice comments you have had on this thread you shall be in business for awhile, making money from Mutts. IMO It is ignorant people who keep you in business, shame they are gettin pulled into the Crap


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Dingle said:


> Yes if Chris wants to promote irresponsible breeding that's up to him...


Yip agree Open forum and a lot of money making people on it with no care what so ever for the dogs IMO


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


> Well said Chris...every thread lately gets turned into the 'responsible breeding thread part 132'


Maybe True BUT recently New Threads have appeared with Irresponsible Breeders of Mutts so works both ways I am afraid to say.


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> Maybe True BUT recently New Threads have appeared with Irresponsible Breeders of Mutts so works both ways I am afraid to say.


Thats fair enough, has it always been like that?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

jackson said:


> So, if a puppy farmer came on here and said they had a litter of 'whatevers' , should we all just go 'ooh, they are gorgeous' or should we question their motives?
> 
> There are SO many dogs in rescue, 23,000 were put to sleep last year, so why on earth would someone breed what appears to be several litters per year, without a very, very good reason?


Seems like quite a few would commend them on their Breeding Practices


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


> Thats fair enough, has it always been like that?


Not as Bad. Seems a lot of new members joining just to cause anger IMO


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

once again.another thread that was only to show of new pups has turned into a breeding debate.why not open another thread and chat about the subject AGAIN on that?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> once again.another thread that was only to show of new pups has turned into a breeding debate.why not open another thread and chat about the subject AGAIN on that?


No need to as their no doubt will be another new member probably about to start one about their Mutt Breeding, so I will just join in if that is okay with you


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

clueless said:


> No nee to as their no doubt be another new member probably about to start one about their Mutt Breeding


MUTT? they are peoples pets for goodness sake...not every thread should turn nasty..the pups looked cute and thats all the person wanted to share.:wink:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> MUTT? they are peoples pets for goodness sake...not every thread should turn nasty..the pups looked cute and thats all the person wanted to share.:wink:


Pets Yes but put 2 different breeds of pets together!!!!!!!!! MUTTS- So Emmm Mutt Breeding-- True or False--Wikipedia: Mutt

Mutt may refer to:

Animals:

Mixed-breed dog, a dog that has characteristics of two or more breeds.

Never said they was not cute or Pets


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Is this guy trying yo create new breeds like the labradoodle to earn a few quid?

Correct me if i am wrong


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

No you are deffo not wrong !



JANICE199 said:


> MUTT? they are peoples pets for goodness sake...not every thread should turn nasty..the pups looked cute and thats all the person wanted to share.:wink:


No offence Janice, but my honest opinion is:

The OP is either a puppy farmer or a wind up...:yikes:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Is this guy trying yo create new breeds like the labradoodle to earn a few quid?
> 
> Correct me if i am wrong


Wrong as he is not even concentrating on one type of Mutt, seems he has bred a few different Mutt Litters


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Post removed by me


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I put a 's' on the end of breed  

Lol 

I see now


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi,

A lot of people who register on here are your average pet owner or new pet owner who have no idea about breeding, either irresponsible or ethical breeding practices. This is one of the ways in which the forum is used, educating the average pet owner.

Mark


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rach said:


> Janice this is a breeder, not a pet owner
> Are we supposed to sit back and say ohh well done when its costing us £1000's in health testing to try and improve our breeds
> 
> Now I'm annoyed at having no will power to stay away but the ohhh leave them alone the pups are cute posts make me sick, this person cos, they dont deserve to be called a breeder, is in it to make money simple as that ! Breeding for the sake of making a quick buck, makes my blood boil
> ...


Rach On here Yes seemingly you are supposed to just sit back and coo over a Mutt litter bred by an Unethical BreederUnfortunately. Its the people who have posted lovely posts that keep this type of person in Business IMO 
So I am with you on this, BAN me as well if need be as I am totally fed up on a site where members seemsto support BYB's and Puppyfarmers.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Rach said:


> Post removed by me


hey Rach why remove the post?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

petforum said:


> Hi,
> 
> A lot of people who register on here are your average pet owner or new pet owner who have no idea about breeding, either irresponsible or ethical breeding practices. This is one of the ways in which the forum is used, educating the average pet owner.
> 
> Mark


Difficult to educate when so many members seem to agree with it!!! and the people trying to educate are frowned upon.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

I can't see how a seemingly respectable site can allow a person who breeds dogs like this on here

Shar-Ba ????
Jugs ???
Springbat ???

You are allowing advertising, sorry and like I said before I have some very good friends on here but I can't sit back and say nothing


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

petforum said:


> Hi,
> 
> A lot of people who register on here are your average pet owner or new pet owner who have no idea about breeding, either irresponsible or ethical breeding practices. This is one of the ways in which the forum is used, educating the average pet owner.
> 
> Mark


Yes agreed & the OP, in his/her own words is breeding many different crosses just for the sake of it.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

clueless said:


> Difficult to educate when so many members seem to agree with it!!! and the people trying to educate are frowned upon.


Hi Clueless,

People dont frown on you educating people. Its just the way it can come accross sometimes. The best way to educate someone is to be polite and friendly, that way they are more enclined to listen to the information they are given. If someone seems aggressive in their posts to someone, they are more enclined not to listen to what is actually being said.

Just my opinion.
Mark


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi there all.
Just got in and caught up on this thread. My, you are a feisty crew aren't you!
All I did was fill in a few pictures that had not come out on Hamsters post.
If anyone can remember back that far, or is interested, I have taken some pics of Bonny so that you can see where the mop-heads are coming from.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

petforum said:


> Hi Clueless,
> 
> People dont frown on you educating people. Its just the way it can come accross sometimes. The best way to educate someone is to be polite and friendly, that way they are more enclined to listen to the information they are given. If someone seems aggressive in their posts to someone, they are more enclined not to listen to what is actually being said.
> 
> ...


Mark how do you think we can educate a breeder like this ?
They know what they are doing, they know they are nothing but a BYB/Puppy Farm and are advertising this on your site 
This person isn't a pet owner, they breed 3 different x's and are allowed to put pictures and stupid names on you site

Don't mean to question how you run your site, but surely you can see why we get so mad ?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

petforum said:


> Hi Clueless,
> 
> People dont frown on you educating people. Its just the way it can come accross sometimes. The best way to educate someone is to be polite and friendly, that way they are more enclined to listen to the information they are given. If someone seems aggressive in their posts to someone, they are more enclined not to listen to what is actually being said.
> 
> ...


True Mark and most of the time the seemingly!! aggressive posts tend to be aimed at the Supporters of an OP as it appears they jump on Ethical/ Responsible Breeders asking questions and trying to give advice IMO


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi,

I do understand why you get mad, if someone is set on breeding puppies like this I dont think you can educate them, just give your opinion. Its very difficult when you have a pet owners forum which is open to anyone join. You have ethical breeders who get mad at unethical breeders, then you get people who work in animal rescue, who get mad at any breeder. What are peoples opinions?, I think a general pet forum such as this will always have arguments regarding any kind of breeding as everyone has different opinions.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

petforum said:


> Hi,
> I think a general pet forum such as this will always have arguments regarding any kind of breeding as everyone has different opinions.


Yes, strong opinions on puppy farms


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

petforum said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do understand why you get mad, if someone is set on breeding puppies like this I dont think you can educate them, just give your opinion. Its very difficult when you have a pet owners forum which is open to anyone join. You have ethical breeders who get mad at unethical breeders, then you get people who work in animal rescue, who get mad at any breeder. What are peoples opinions?, I think a general pet forum such as this will always have arguments regarding any kind of breeding as everyone has different opinions.


Agree so how come its the Ethical Breeders who get jumped on when we give our Opinionand we are the Baddies!!!


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

Rach said:


> Yes, strong opinions on puppy farms


not all people who breed cross breeds are puppy farmers, a lot of puppy farms are full of pedigree dogs not just crosses, such a sweeping judgemental statement


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Hey there. Does anyone know where I can get a stud reindeer for my Poodle? I've got a great idea for the Christmas market.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Vixie said:


> not all people who breed cross breeds are puppy farmers, a lot of puppy farms are full of pedigree dogs not just crosses, such a sweeping judgemental statement


Yes Vixie maybe, so what would you call someone that breeds Jugs, Springbatts and Ba-Sha's ?
I would call anyone that purposely breeds this type of dog a puppy farmer or BYB, just my opinion of course


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Vixie said:


> not all people who breed cross breeds are puppy farmers, a lot of puppy farms are full of pedigree dogs not just crosses, such a sweeping judgemental statement


i agree, some pedigree dogs are bred by puppy farmers, 
we have cross breeds, my OH has lurchers, and they have never had health problems,


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Rach said:


> Yes Vixie maybe, so what would you call someone that breeds Jugs, Springbatts and Ba-Sha's ?
> I would call anyone that purposely breeds this type of dog a puppy farmer or BYB, just my opinion of course


 i call a puppy farm or byb someone that knocks out unhealthy pups, none stop, wether they are crosses or pedigree doesnt matter, you get puppy farmers and byb of both,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Oh yes they do breed pedigrees too
Can I ask the same question to you then ? What would you call a someone that breeds Jugs, Springbatts and Ba-Sha's ?


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Vixie said:


> not all people who breed cross breeds are puppy farmers, a lot of puppy farms are full of pedigree dogs not just crosses, such a sweeping judgemental statement


totally agree 


colliemerles said:


> i call a puppy farm or byb someone that knocks out unhealthy pups, none stop, wether they are crosses or pedigree doesnt matter, you get puppy farmers and byb of both,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


agree with that too


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> i call a puppy farm or byb someone that knocks out unhealthy pups, none stop, wether they are crosses or pedigree doesnt matter, you get puppy farmers and byb of both,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


So what would you call the Supporters of BYB and Puppyfarmers !!!


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

clueless said:


> So what would you call the Supporters of BYB and Puppyfarmers !!!


The public?????


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

Rach said:


> Yes Vixie maybe, so what would you call someone that breeds Jugs, Springbatts and Ba-Sha's ?
> I would call anyone that purposely breeds this type of dog a puppy farmer or BYB, just my opinion of course


puppy farmers are someone who *MASS* produces any type or dog be it pedigree or cross breed and do not properly care for their animals and these pups and adult dogs are usually of poor health and kept in appalling conditions, this cannot be said for all people who breed crosses surely you can see this,

as for BYB what exactly is one? there doesn't seem to be a definitive and clear explanation of this, I have bred a littler or sheep dogs not KC registered from parents I know the hystory and health of for at least 5 generation, they were health checked, flead, wormed, had their first jab given the best food love care and attention, they went to great owners who still stay in touch, so am I a BYB in your eyes am I no longer worthy to be on this forum???


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

clueless said:


> So what would you call the Supporters of BYB and Puppyfarmers !!!


i dont agree with anyone who doesnt look after there bitches or puppies whatever breed or cross breed they are, all breeders should aim to breed from healthy parents ,resulting hopefully in healthy well looked after pups,


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

I bought a mongrel from a pup but I wouldnt call myself a supporter of puppy farms or bybs... Am I?


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

clueless said:


> So what would you call the Supporters of BYB and Puppyfarmers !!!


no one says we agree with puppy farms they are vile places and should be shut down and the people who run them locked up and prevented from owning any animal, but not all people who cross breed are puppy farmers are they


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

louise5031 said:


> I bought a mongrel from a pup but I wouldnt call myself a supporter of puppy farms or bybs... Am I?


no your not, you brought a pet dog, and hopefully a loving member of your family, 
and this forum is a PET forum for all,


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

louise5031 said:


> I bought a mongrel from a pup but I wouldnt call myself a supporter of puppy farms or bybs... Am I?


no you are not but apparently some people think we are


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Anyone who Mark thinks is worthy of being on this forum is of course worthy, but that doesn't mean that I, or a lot of other people agree with it, which of course, is our choice

So, my MSN is [email protected]

I will stick to the many sites, breed, pet, show and rescue forums that I'm a member of that would never allow this type of advertising

Sorry if I've offended anyone but I feel so strongly about this that it's best I leave


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

some people seem to think that crossbreeds are not worthy to exist


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> i dont agree with anyone who doesnt look after there bitches or puppies whatever breed or cross breed they are, all breeders should aim to breed from healthy parents ,resulting hopefully in healthy well looked after pups,


So really that would be your advice for someone breeding the crosses mentioned by a member on this thread??????


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> some people seem to think that crossbreeds are not worthy to exist


 i have cross breeds and KC reg, and love them all the same, i look more at the breeder when i choose my new pet, make sure the home is clean the mother dog looks healthy and the pups look clean and healthy, wether it be a cross breed or a KC reg,


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> some people seem to think that crossbreeds are not worthy to exist


Nope try again The Breeders are not!!!!IMO of course


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

clueless said:


> So really that would be your advice for someone breeding the crosses mentioned by a member on this thread??????


is it just because they are crosses, what if he were selling KC reg bulldogs or poodles etc, would you all be ok then ,but as he is breeding crosses, lets all jump on him shell we,????


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> I bought a mongrel from a pup but I wouldnt call myself a supporter of puppy farms or bybs... Am I?


If the person you bought it from bred the litter intentionally well I am obviously of a different opinion as I would say yes you are


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

Rach said:


> Anyone who Mark thinks is worthy of being on this forum is of course worthy, but that doesn't mean that I, or a lot of other people agree with it, which of course, is our choice
> 
> So, my MSN is [email protected]
> 
> ...


no one wants you to leave but we are all entitled to our opinions you as well as me, just because I am a moderator it doesnt mean I cannot have my say, I just dont happen to agree that all people who breed non KC pups are puppy farmers or BYB,

you may think very little of me right now, but I still think hightly of people who care for their pets and for thier breeding practices such as your self, being passionate about animal wealfare is comendable, but I also feel strongly about animal wealfare and would do nothing to promote bad breeding, breeding for profit or the misstreatment of animals, whatever they are. I feel that labelling everyone who has a litter out of the KC BYB hurtful as I am not a BYB just as you are feeling hurt that people are seemingly supporting bad practice which the majority of us are not.

There is no need to leave the forum


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> is it just because they are crosses, what if he were selling KC reg bulldogs or poodles etc, would you all be ok then ,but as he is breeding crosses, lets all jump on him shell we,????


Look back my posts( thats if you have not already done so) I do not agree with any unethical breeding, never have. But thats not what I asked you. These crosses are not getting bred accidently


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Nope try again The Breeders are not!!!!IMO of course


what if someone breeds crosses responsible...doing health test, looking after the dogs properly and all that stuff. 
What would u say then?


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

I cant believe im reading this YES i know its a pet forum YES i know everyone has there own opinions but honest to god are you seriously condoning this breeder and people like them?!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> i have cross breeds and KC reg, and love them all the same, i look more at the breeder when i choose my new pet, make sure the home is clean the mother dog looks healthy and the pups look clean and healthy, wether it be a cross breed or a KC reg,


I also have a Non KC reg bitch and have had a cross in the past but the difference is I did not Breed them just for the sake of it. Thats really what this is about not what people own


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

clueless said:


> If the person you bought it from bred the litter intentionally well I am obviously of a different opinion as I would say yes you are


No it was an accidental mating, she was a pure bred lab only 18 months they were not going to breed from her until much later (if they decided to at all) but they let her out in their garden and next door mongrel jumped the fence.

As I see it the pups were already here. They were not advertised under any fancy name and were priced much cheaper than pedigree labradors. So I did not feel bad about buying him as imo they were not back yrd breeders. I saw the conditions they were being raised in and I could not of been happier, I still keep in touch with the lady now and know 100% if we could not keep Zach for whatever reason they would have him back.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> what if someone breeds crosses responsible...doing health test, looking after the dogs properly and all that stuff.
> What would u say then?


Probably reply as I have on previous threads re same---Why and then take it from there


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> No it was an accidental mating, she was a pure bred lab only 18 months they were not going to breed from her until much later (if they decided to at all) but they let her out in their garden and next door mongrel jumped the fence.
> 
> As I see it the pups were already here. They were not advertised under any fancy name and were priced much cheaper than pedigree labradors. So I did not feel bad about buying him as imo they were not back yrd breeders. I saw the conditions they were being raised in and I could not of been happier, I still keep in touch with the lady now and know 100% if we could not keep Zach for whatever reason they would have him back.


Well why make a comment like you did, especially as it was an accidental litter. Accidental and Planning is totally different and I would consider a person a supporter when buying from a planned litter of Crossbreeds with designer names. Big Difference IMO


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Probably reply as I have on previous threads re same---Why and then take it from there


not for money....is it acceptable by u then? lol
There are ppl out there who like mongrels rather than purebreds and whats wrong with a breeder crossing responsibly dogs, not for the sake of money.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

clueless said:


> Well why make a comment like you did, especially as it was an accidental litter. Accidental and Planning is totally different and I would consider a person a supporter when buying from a planned litter of Crossbreeds with designer names. Big Difference IMO


I wasnt trying to cause an argument I just wondered what everyones opinion was on buying mongrels from pups even if there was a different story behind it like mine.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> not for money....is it acceptable by u then? lol
> There are ppl out there who like mongrels rather than purebreds and whats wrong with a breeder crossing responsibly dogs, not for the sake of money.


Did I get sarcastic with you!!!! or even psychic So I will ask you--Do you think these crosses mentioned on here are more acceptable than purebreeds and why do they do it if not for money, answer in your opinion of course


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> I wasnt trying to cause an argument I just wondered what everyones opinion was on buying mongrels from pups even if there was a different story behind it like mine.


I know Louise. The way you put it I felt that you thought because you had a Mongrel that the Ethical Breeders posting on this thread were totally against people who had Mongrels. I am not against people with Mongrels or who get Mongrels via accidental matings.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Did I get sarcastic with you!!!! or even psychic So I will ask you--Do you think these crosses mentioned on here are more acceptable than purebreeds and why do they do it if not for money, answer in your opinion of course


u answer my question first


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

clueless said:


> I know Louise. The way you put it I felt that you thought because you had a Mongrel that the Ethical Breeders posting on this thread were totally against people who had Mongrels. I am not against people with Mongrels or who get Mongrels via accidental matings.


No problem, I also feel like I want to explain the situation every time this conversation comes up because I dont want people thinking I went out of my way to pay ridiculous money for a 'designer' pup..


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## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

Promised myself I would not get involved any further... BUT


I am VERY happy for an owner of a new puppy mongrel or not, they did not irresponsibly plan to make money off these poor souls.
I think this site does promote positive ownership.... but for someone to stand beside Hessian and promotes Irresponsible breeding does really disgust me. 
Yes some of the threads go on a tangent... I agree. I think new OWNERS of these puppies should enjoy their new additions.. do I think irresponsible breeders should be allowed to gloat ... of course not IMPO.. 

Well yes I am rather p**Sed of.... I know what crossing this breed with others does.. and I am sorry I am NOT all for it! Then it comes out he/she also breeds other cross breeds. SORRY can he/she not put the money into the pedigree aspect and breed PROPERLY? No that would require far too much investment for a business to succeed. And yes it is just that... a BUSINESS
I love animals far too much to sit back and watch these cross breeds being produced for ONLY money cause there is no other excuse. 
If Hessian (or any other BYB) was in it for the health then every one of his breeding stock would be health tested If I asked him/her about the history if his pedigrees he/she would know cause he/she would have invested the time and the inclination to research his lines! 
Yes I get angry and NO I do not think that people like this person reserves the right to advertise in such a positive animal loving site! 
 Yes it has sparked a nerve... but I have every reason to! I am a breeder who shows my animals.. proves their quality in the irng, I health test all my dogs and buy from ONLY health tested lines.. ALOT of money, far more than ever made is put into my animals yet someone like hessian can breed hmmm how many cross breed does he have? in what conditions? who knows..... I know I do not.. 


sign... my comments will make no difference but at least now I feel much better for ranting for Irresponsibility :001_tongue::001_tongue::001_tongue:


leaving now :frown2:


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi,

The same argument of breeding pedigree dogs and crossbreeds has been continuing on this forum since day one and will probably continue until the end of the forum. Everytime anything like this comes up, everyone asks me the same questions, do I support this or do I condone that. Why do I allow someone with these or those believes or opinions to continue to use the forum.

I dont think I have the right to stop someone using the petforum to express their opinions and believes. This Pet Forum is for all people in the UK and beyond who are interested in pets to use regardless of their opinions and I think the forum represents the whole of the UK in general as I allow everyone to register. I dont say I dont believe in breeding full stop, so I wont allow anyone who breeds to register. If I did, it would probably be called the pet rescue forums. The forum isnt about my personal opinions and I dont express them on here, its about everyone elses and your more than welcome to express them.

The only time I step in and moderate is when someone is being unproductive or is causing problems, or is being abusive or slanderous to other members. My job is to keep the forum running as relatively smoothly as possible so you can all use it and give your opinions and get answers to your questions. So next time some says im being biased to someone, this is totally untrue and am only helping the thread or forum continue to run as best as I can.


Many Thanks
Mark


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

clueless said:


> Pets Yes but put 2 different breeds of pets together!!!!!!!!! MUTTS- So Emmm Mutt Breeding-- True or False--Wikipedia: Mutt
> 
> Mutt may refer to:
> 
> ...


so we agree they were cute? then lets leave it there
better to have good feelings all round


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

wow im gone for a few days, look wat i come back to...wat i left a few days ago lol.....arguments and byb 

to the byb that is breeding these innocent pups >>>> :dita:


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Hey, dont blame me. I was just trying to help by supplying a few photo's. I wasn't even here for most of the day! They were quite happy playing amongst themselves. It was amazing how some of them made a complete identi-kit profile of me without actually needing any real facts.
Goodwill to all PET lovers.


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## benriley83 (Oct 12, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> so we agree they were cute? then lets leave it there
> better to have good feelings all round


yeah much better to have good feeling all round and kiss each others arses than to try and do something about the problem of scum like this breeding willy nilly

the op is clearly a wind up but the responses here clearly shows some peoples true colours if you dont have a problem with this sort of breeding there is something wrong

they are cute but that dont make it right to breed them just to make a quick buck if you wanna make a quick buck pimp yourself not a dog

the attitude of admin and moderators on this forum makes me sick, have you no morals that goes for you too janice grow a spine all i see you do on here is lick everybodies arse and the person that said be proud of these pups there is nothing to be proud of here and anyone who thinks there is needs reeducating


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Hey, dont blame me. I was just trying to help by supplying a few photo's. I wasn't even here for most of the day! They were quite happy playing amongst themselves. It was amazing how some of them made a complete identi-kit profile of me without actually needing any real facts.
> Goodwill to all PET lovers.


:dita::dita:


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Oh nice! All welcome here then.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Oh nice! All welcome here then.


Well from Unethical members with no morals You certainly will be made Welcome


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

benriley83 said:


> yeah much better to have good feeling all round and kiss each others arses than to try and do something about the problem of scum like this breeding willy nilly
> 
> the op is clearly a wind up but the responses here clearly shows some peoples true colours if you dont have a problem with this sort of breeding there is something wrong
> 
> ...


Congratulations on your observations Happens a lot on here. Agree, although I tend to use the word Suppository for :ciappa: licker though


----------



## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

benriley83 said:


> yeah much better to have good feeling all round and kiss each others arses than to try and do something about the problem of scum like this breeding willy nilly
> 
> the op is clearly a wind up but the responses here clearly shows some peoples true colours if you dont have a problem with this sort of breeding there is something wrong
> 
> ...





clueless said:


> Well from Unethical members with no morals You certainly will be made Welcome


Both brilliantly said


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

wow this was quite a read. I myself have had mongrels and purebreds. My mongrels were cute crossbreeds both rescued and bought, the bought one I pd $35.00 for she died at 9. The money they got from this accident was used to have the mom spayed. My purebreds 1 sheltie is not registered I pd $25.00 for him accidental breeding. My reg sheltie and collie came from working lines, health tested and I pd $600.00 I did not feel i was overcharged for them. I do not agree with intentionally breeding crossbreeds but do not have a problem buying one for a reasonable price like 30.00 dollars. Accidents do happen but OP is intentionally breeding with no thought to the genetic health of these pups and I wonder OP do you do health checks or post whelp checks on your mom dogs? Answer please...Jill


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

benriley83 said:


> yeah much better to have good feeling all round and kiss each others arses than to try and do something about the problem of scum like this breeding willy nilly
> 
> the op is clearly a wind up but the responses here clearly shows some peoples true colours if you dont have a problem with this sort of breeding there is something wrong
> 
> ...


Haha you don't know me that well i'm afraid...i don't grovel to please ANYONE.
so now its wrong just to be polite to people? i think not..:nonod:



clueless said:


> Congratulations on your observations Happens a lot on here. Agree, although I tend to use the word Suppository for :ciappa: licker though


I would have thought you new me better.as you know i DON'T and never have bred dogs..
well you soon find out who ya so called friends are.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Whew! (Closes mouth and wipes forehead with back of hand) Just read through all this thread. Things certainly kicked off here last night, didn't they?

Seems like this is a subject that is close to everyone's heart - and rightly so. When the health and welfare of animals are concerned, you can't expect posters on a pet forum not to have strong opinions. I know I'm at an advantage having come to this thread at the end, and being able to read it through in one go, but it seems to me that there are three main issues that people are incensed about.

The first and obvious issue is that a lot of people on here are totally against breeders such as the OP, and rightly so in my opinion. People who breed either crossbreeds or pedigrees purely for money and with no regard for their welfare or their future are no better than scum.

The second issue is that members who own mongrels seem to think that because some members are against this sort of breeding then they are against mongrels. From what I've read, most people are not against mongrels - just unethical breeding. My opinion is that if you buy either a mongrel or a pedigree from an unethical breeder then you are part of the problem - if it were not for people buying these unfortunate dogs, they would not be bred in the first place. There are many ethical breeders of both mongrels and pedigrees out there - if you can't be bothered to do your research, or want a designer dog because it's fashionable, or even buy a dog because you feel sorry for the conditions in which it has been born - then, like it or not, you are condoning and perpetuating this sort of breeding and are part of the problem.

The third issue that members have is that this forum (a) allows unethical breeders to post, (b) asks members not to attack unethical breeding and (c) does not take action when members support unethical breeding by saying things such as "oh but the puppies are cute so lets all be friends". I understand that on an open forum anyone can post, and that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I also would not want the forum to dictate that you have to hold certain opinions before you can be a member. In addition, I agree with the statements made that unethical breeders and their supporters need to be educated. However, by letting such posts go unchecked, (and by instructing members who do post against such practices to desist) this forum is intimating that it condones unethical breeding.

Would it not be better for either Mark or one of the mods to add a rider to such posts (and the posts that support them) that (a) state something like "Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion, this forum does not condone unethical breeding" and (b) support the members who do post against such practices? Then we would not be getting good and long-standing members such as Rach feeling that they have no option other than to leave.


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you can't eat it or hump it. Piss on it and walk away

Best thing you have said. And I will - in a minute.

Just a couple of things I want to make clear. 
I am a dog lover and always have been.
I do breed dogs. I breed dogs for money. The money helps me to breed dogs. It is what I do for a living and so I get to be with my dogs all day, every day.Not such a bad life for me or my girls.
I breed dogs to the best of my ability. I have strong views of my own about the KC and it's supporters and have no desire to follow their way of working. It is just a private members club after all with its rules set to the benefit of those members. Any claim it had to some sort of moral high ground has been destroyed with the mutant revelations.
There seems to be the perception that I sell poor pups in some way. Apart from the fact that I care about them does anyone seriously think that anyone would buy a poor little pup? Healthy, bouncy, friendly little pups that have been vaccinated, vet checked, wormed, flea treated and socialised sell.
Customers are more than welcome to see my dogs, not just the parents, when they visit. I am proud of them.
I breed hybrids, mutts if you must, that are 1st cross. All my breeders are pure breds. This is my choice and I have been doing this for quite some time and intend to go on doing so.
My dogs are all healthy, well fed and homed. They are allowed to run together and socialise all day. They are housed separately of a night.
I stand behind my pups after they are sold and like to keep in touch with the new owners. Several have brought dogs back for a visit and I sell quite a few pups through recommendation so I must be doing something that someone likes.
Thats enough now.
Forums are great.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

I think the bottom line is this.as this IS marks forum we should respect how HE wants it run.Which he has stated many times.
If you invite people into you place and they know the rules,would you not expect them to abide by them?
No doubt i will be accused once again of groveling,i dont see like that..
nowhere does it state this is for pedigree breeders, its a pet forum.
and ye i'm expecting the same old names to come back with what they know best


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

spellweaver said:


> The second issue is that members who own mongrels seem to think that because some members are against this sort of breeding then they are against mongrels. From what I've read, most people are not against mongrels - just unethical breeding.


I think this particular issue arose when it was suggested that all cross breeds come from bybs or pfs. I didn't get too involved with that but imo thats where the argument started with rach etc vs vixie etc

Like you say just because people are against unethical breeding doesnt mean they are against mongrels


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you can't eat it or hump it. Piss on it and walk away
> 
> Best thing you have said. And I will - in a minute.
> 
> ...


Not trying to start all this off again, just would like to ask a question 

Where do you stand in regard to health testing prior to breeding? I think thats what angers so many people about cross breeding, the parents very rarely seem to be health tested, for example hip scored. How do you know that you are not passing on genes to the pups making them more susceptible to painful hip problems in later life?

Not all pedigree breeders are as caring, we know this, but people like Rach who posted earlier have spent thousands of pounds trying to improve the breed and slowly erradicate these diseases generation by generation. Do you give a thought to all this? I would just like to know your opinion  Are you under the impression that by cross breeding they are less likely to suffer from these diseases? Or have you just not really given it a thought? Just wondering.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> I think the bottom line is this.as this IS marks forum we should respect how HE wants it run.Which he has stated many times.
> If you invite people into you place and they know the rules,would you not expect them to abide by them?
> No doubt i will be accused once again of groveling,i dont see like that..
> nowhere does it state this is for pedigree breeders, its a pet forum.
> and ye i'm expecting the same old names to come back with what they know best


It is Mark's forum, and he can run it exactly how he wants to run it. However, if it were my forum, I'd rather have members make constructive suggestions for improvement rather than members grovelling before me saying, "I'll do whatever you say, oh mighty one."


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> Not trying to start all this off again, just would like to ask a question
> 
> Where do you stand in regard to health testing prior to breeding? I think thats what angers so many people about cross breeding, the parents very rarely seem to be health tested, for example hip scored. How do you know that you are not passing on genes to the pups making them more susceptible to painful hip problems in later life?
> 
> Not all pedigree breeders are as caring, we know this, but people like Rach who posted earlier have spent thousands of pounds trying to improve the breed and slowly erradicate these diseases generation by generation. Do you give a thought to all this? I would just like to know your opinion  Are you under the impression that by cross breeding they are less likely to suffer from these diseases? Or have you just not really given it a thought? Just wondering.


Louise - this is an excellent post. I think you have put in a nutshell the concerns of we ethical breeders. I shall be very interested to read the OPs relpy.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

spellweaver said:


> Louise - this is an excellent post. I think you have put in a nutshell the concerns of we ethical breeders. I shall be very interested to read the OPs relpy.


Thanks Spellweaver. I don't think Mark or the mods should have a problem with this, it makes an interesting conversation.

I think this is what was needed at the beginning of the post, though because the subject is a _very_ sensitive one to some people it ends up getting heated very quickly lol


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

spellweaver said:


> It is Mark's forum, and he can run it exactly how he wants to run it. However, if it were my forum, I'd rather have members make constructive suggestions for improvement rather than members grovelling before me saying, "I'll do whatever you say, oh mighty one."


sorry we will dissagree then...what you call groveling i call RESPECT...


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

spellweaver said:


> It is Mark's forum, and he can run it exactly how he wants to run it. However, if it were my forum, I'd rather have members make constructive suggestions for improvement rather than members grovelling before me saying, "I'll do whatever you say, oh mighty one."





JANICE199 said:


> sorry we will dissagree then...what you call groveling i call RESPECT...


Yes, we do disagree. There is nothing disrespectful about constructive criticism - it shows great respect. What you call "respect" I call something beginning with "a*, but for the sake of decency will stick to grovelling.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Like I have said, this forum is for everyone to use and give their opinions. I am not stopping certain people from giving their opinions and I have never asked for anyone to grovell. Some people seem to be asking me again to take sides and say I dont condone crossbreeding. As I have said before, this forum has nothing to do with my personal beleives and should reflect the pet owning community as a whole. Im not preventing you from giving your opinions on this, I am only here to moderate the forum and stop it from turning in to personal insults.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Just a thought.

This OP has obviously stirred very strong opinions, my own are that he is benefitting from the defensive reaction of people who are pet owners already/ These pups are not pets yet, he is an acknowledged 'breeder' , wouldn't it make more sense to move all posts from people like the OP out of 'chat' and into 'breeding'?

I understand why petowners see the pretty pups and get upset, but this OP is hoping to sell these pups on to you and [imo] is quite cynically manipulating the strong feelings of people on this thread. Until these pups are sold they really belong in the breeding forum and then the experienced responsible breeders and dog welfare enthusiasts have every right to attempt to 'educate' the OP as to the likely results of deliberately crossbreeding unhealth checked dogs.
And for everyone to say 'Oh no! Not the Health check' brigade again, please spare a thought for the fact that at the end of the day, it is the average pet dog, and the average pet owner that such threads and posts are trying to protect.


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## rottiesloveragdolls (Nov 2, 2007)

*what is wrong with people the last few weeks :yikes: everyone has their own opinions and certenly dont grovell to anyone, this was and still is a nice forum to be on and some very helpfull people give brilliant advise but it dont matter where you go there will always be the odd few who like to get personal and spoil it for others which is a shame :ciappa: *


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*and there was me thinking how nice it was on here yesterday.never mind i've been called worse:biggrin5::biggrin5:*


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

spellweaver said:


> Louise - this is an excellent post. I think you have put in a nutshell the concerns of we ethical breeders. I shall be very interested to read the OPs relpy.


 By the term "we ethical breeders" do you mean that you are not a KC breeder?
There is no way you can be both. In which case how are you and me different?

The entire point of my crosses is best demonstrated by example so here goes.
Toffee, the much maligned Ba-Shar from earlier, was bred with the intention of producing a much less vet prone pet dog than either of its parents. By crossing I done away with the ear and particularly eye problems inherent in Shar-Peis, shortened the problem causing spine of a Bassett and lifted its ears up off the ground. Of course this is now not a recognised breed of dog but it was never going to be was it. What it is is a more suitable pet than either of its parents for someone who wants just that. Why is that such a problem for people? I am happy, the people who bought them are more than happy (in fact I have a waiting list) and it in no way impacts on the show people. In none of these replies have I seen a coherent argument against the dogs themselves. Some people just resort to attacking me when, frankly, they do not know anything about me. They make suppositions which are then taken as fact and then they build on them. It is quite funny to watch I must admit and we have had quite a chuckle here just watching it.
I have put a picture of Matt in here so you can try to guess what he is and then see if you can guess the rationale behind it. And before some smart arse chimes in it is NOT money.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Without health checking your dogs, scoring hips, dna testing if appropriate, you have NO idea what you have actually created. You also have no idea whether the next pup will look anything like that one. It may sound plausible but it means nothing.
I have no problem with mongrels as pets , I am not a pedigree owner out of snobbery, I just wanted a clear indication about what I was buying. 

If you really care about 'fixing' health probs are you going to screen the dogs you use to breed from?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Leah100 said:


> Just a thought.
> 
> This OP has obviously stirred very strong opinions, my own are that he is benefitting from the defensive reaction of people who are pet owners already/ These pups are not pets yet, he is an acknowledged 'breeder' , wouldn't it make more sense to move all posts from people like the OP out of 'chat' and into 'breeding'?
> 
> ...


Whoa back. I did Not start the post and the only reason that my pups were up there is that Hamsters original post had no pics and so I helped out. At no point have I put a for sale sign up. Any other pics are of pups already sold.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Whoa back. I did Not start the post and the only reason that my pups were up there is that Hamsters original post had no pics and so I helped out. At no point have I put a for sale sign up. Any other pics are of pups already sold.


You have already said you breed as your way of making a living, I apologise if I confused you with the OP but other than the order of posts I think the rest of it stands?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

I have no problem with mongrels as pets , I am not a pedigree owner out of snobbery, I just wanted a clear indication about what I was buying.
And you still got a pedigree? Never mind. I'm sure you love it and that you are happy together.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hessian said:


> I have no problem with mongrels as pets , I am not a pedigree owner out of snobbery, I just wanted a clear indication about what I was buying.
> And you still got a pedigree? Never mind. I'm sure you love it and that you are happy together.


Yes I do, and he is exactly what I hoped for and what I paid for. 
Your buyers will be very lucky if they can say the same [and for their sakes I hope they can because I would not wish anything different than a long and happy life together for them and their pup]. The difference is , that it really WILL be down to luck.
I am not a dog breeder, I am a pet owner, is it stupid of me to want the best for my pet? To insist [whether ped or xbreed] that his parents have been health checked and screened to give him the very best possible chance of a healthy happy life?
If you really care about those pups, you will screen the parents, the only reason you could possibly have to not do so is to save money, and how is that fair to the peoiple buying them?


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

Leah100 said:


> You have already said you breed as your way of making a living, I apologise if I confused you with the OP but other than the order of posts I think the rest of it stands?


We are just not going to get engaged are we? Still I have at last worked out what OP means and I thank you for that.
Got to go now and see my dogs. Bye.xxx


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hessian said:


> We are just not going to get engaged are we? Still I have at last worked out what OP means and I thank you for that.
> Got to go now and see my dogs. Bye.xxx


Flippant, glib, again meaningless.... how utterly reassuring and confidence inspiring.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> By the term "we ethical breeders" do you mean that you are not a KC breeder?
> There is no way you can be both .


Stop trying to turn this into a pedigree versus mongrel thing. There are good and bad breeders of both pedigrees and mongrels. An ethical breeder is one who breeds from healthy lines, and they have their dogs health tested before they breed. An ethical breeder does it to further the breed, not for the profit. An ethical breeder asks many questions to ensure that prospective new owners are right for the breed. An ethical breeder does home checks before they leave a puppy with anyone. An ethical breeder provides life-long support and aftercare to the owners of the puppies they sell. An ethical breeder will take back any puppy that needs rehoming.



Hessian said:


> The entire point of my crosses is best demonstrated by example so here goes.
> Toffee, the much maligned Ba-Shar from earlier, was bred with the intention of producing a much less vet prone pet dog than either of its parents. By crossing I done away with the ear and particularly eye problems inherent in Shar-Peis, shortened the problem causing spine of a Bassett and lifted its ears up off the ground. Of course this is now not a recognised breed of dog but it was never going to be was it. What it is is a more suitable pet than either of its parents for someone who wants just that. Why is that such a problem for people? .


The problem as I see it is this. How do you know that you have produced "a much less vet prone dog than either of its parents"? Did you have both parents health tested before you embarked upon this? For example, a breeder of pedigree bassets would have tested for the following before breeding: genetic diseases such as Von Willebrands Disease and Canine Thrombophatia; hip and elbow displasia, luxating patella. A breeder of pedigree Shar-Peis would have checked for the following before breeding: FSP, Amyloidaisis, Haemolytic Anemia, Splenic Infarction - and a whole lot more things. Did you do any of these tests on the parents of your pups? I doubt you did, because that would eat away almost all the profit you enjoy from your exploitative breeding. If you didn't, how can you state that you have bred healthy dogs? If you did, and both parents were healthy, why try to breed crosses instead of breeding healthy pedigrees?

If, as I suspect, you have never even heard of these diseases that bassets and shar-peis can be prone to, let alone had the parents tested for them, then do you really think you can call yourself an ethical breeder? And do you really think that you have a case for putting down the ethical breeders of pedigree dogs who spend a fortune on these sorts of tests before they breed?


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

As suggested, this thread is being moved to the Dog Breeding section as this is a more appropriate place for it.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

I would have thought you new me better.as you know i DON'T and never have bred dogs..
well you soon find out who ya so called friends are.[/QUOTE]

Was that post mainly aimed at you


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you can't eat it or hump it. Piss on it and walk away
> 
> Best thing you have said. And I will - in a minute.
> 
> ...


I would be interested to know
How many litters do you breed a year??
You also state you only sell first crosses??
You stated that this is all you do, Are you VAT Reg. or declare to TAX??
Thanks


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> I do breed dogs. I breed dogs for money. The money helps me to breed dogs. It is what I do for a living





Hessian said:


> And before some smart arse chimes in it is NOT money.


Could you maybe decide/ clarify which one it is Thanks


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## Hessian (Jul 29, 2008)

spellweaver said:


> Stop trying to turn this into a pedigree versus mongrel thing. There are good and bad breeders of both pedigrees and mongrels. An ethical breeder is one who breeds from healthy lines, and they have their dogs health tested before they breed. An ethical breeder does it to further the breed, not for the profit. An ethical breeder asks many questions to ensure that prospective new owners are right for the breed. An ethical breeder does home checks before they leave a puppy with anyone. An ethical breeder provides life-long support and aftercare to the owners of the puppies they sell. An ethical breeder will take back any puppy that needs rehoming.
> 
> The problem as I see it is this. How do you know that you have produced "a much less vet prone dog than either of its parents"? Did you have both parents health tested before you embarked upon this? For example, a breeder of pedigree bassets would have tested for the following before breeding: genetic diseases such as Von Willebrands Disease and Canine Thrombophatia; hip and elbow displasia, luxating patella. A breeder of pedigree Shar-Peis would have checked for the following before breeding: FSP, Amyloidaisis, Haemolytic Anemia, Splenic Infarction - and a whole lot more things. Did you do any of these tests on the parents of your pups? I doubt you did, because that would eat away almost all the profit you enjoy from your exploitative breeding. If you didn't, how can you state that you have bred healthy dogs? If you did, and both parents were healthy, why try to breed crosses instead of breeding healthy pedigrees?
> 
> If, as I suspect, you have never even heard of these diseases that bassets and shar-peis can be prone to, let alone had the parents tested for them, then do you really think you can call yourself an ethical breeder? And do you really think that you have a case for putting down the ethical breeders of pedigree dogs who spend a fortune on these sorts of tests before they breed?


Once again you chose to miss the point. I will try to break it down so that it is simpler.
LABELS. Self appointed ones do not count - I found this out when I called myself Hessian the Credit Worthy and went shopping. The people you refer to as ethical breeders shall for the sake of brevity be referred to as SAEB's.

SAEB's are the very antithesis of what should be promoted on a pet lovers forum. It is their continued intervention over decades that has brought us to the state we find ourselves in now. The prolonged meddling with the physiology of dogs - for their own ends, not the dogs it must be stressed - and then running to the vet to try and patch up the damage is shameful. To then hide behind health testing and screening for problems they have largely created themselves is just arrogant in the extreme.
It is my firm belief that I have done more for my pups with a cross breeding than could be done for a pure bred with any amount of veterinary attention. All the testing does NOT cure anything does it? You need to widen the gene pool, not restrict it.
You mention money so lets go there now. Where do the SAEB's think they will take pet ownership with their attitude. It has already been put to me on this thread that a £1000 is a realistic price for a pup because of the veterinary expense. Do they want to make dogs an elitist item - he must be rich, he can afford a dog - which is where it would lead. Maybe poor people can make do with accidental mating pups or SAEB cast offs that are not the best in the litter.
Today - SAEB to date have brought us to the point where we have "specimen" dogs, purposely bred for, that cannot breathe properly, have fits, the amazing 45 degree GSD, cant conceive or give birth without help, ear problems, eye problems, joint problems and even brains that don't fit. These are not fit people to be giving it the high and mighty. It may have started out with the best of intentions but, now that it has got so out of hand and is widely known, these people should stop. Of course they will not, they will draw the wagons into a circle, develop a siege mentality and mutter darkly to each other of conspiracies and politics.Anybodies and everybodies fault but theirs.
Tomorrow - the flagship event, Crufts, is in jeopardy and the KC bunker is having to scramble to try and restore some credibility. A tough job as the KC IS it's members. Turkeys voting for Christmas?
Summary - you can squawk all you like but your ship is going down - and about time too -and trying to demonise the new wave will not help you. You should be driven underground with the dog fighters for your refusal to accept that you are just perpetuating cruelty. Your smug, we know best attitude just has no credibility. Let people, all people, have pets, natural pets without all the elitist sneering and criticising from a discredited bunch of yesterdays men.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

very well said hessian, i agree totally,  good luck to you and your future breeding plans,
i think you have done enough explaining to these members now, but sadly i doubt they will leave you alone,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Hessian i think you've summed that all up nicely*


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

I must admit that made an interesting read 

I'm still confused though, even if like you say the pure-bred dogs with hereditary diseases are in a bad way because of those pedigree breeders, surely it still makes sense to health test before you cross? I mean its not the dogs faults they have been bred to the extreme in some cases, and I can see how in your opinion you feel you are widening the gene pool and doing good for the k9 world, but would it not be even more beneficial to health test before you breed?


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Once again you chose to miss the point. I will try to break it down so that it is simpler.
> LABELS. Self appointed ones do not count - I found this out when I called myself Hessian the Credit Worthy and went shopping. The people you refer to as ethical breeders shall for the sake of brevity be referred to as SAEB's.
> 
> SAEB's are the very antithesis of what should be promoted on a pet lovers forum. It is their continued intervention over decades that has brought us to the state we find ourselves in now. The prolonged meddling with the physiology of dogs - for their own ends, not the dogs it must be stressed - and then running to the vet to try and patch up the damage is shameful. To then hide behind health testing and screening for problems they have largely created themselves is just arrogant in the extreme.
> ...


Great read,but nicely avoiding again the health testing issue 
Perhaps you should stand for election,great waffle,withouts facts!

We health test to avoid passing on hereditary diseases,to use only clear dogs in a breeding programme,of course we could always take your stance and not bother,maybe pass on the vet expenses to new owners.Lets hope one day you end up in court owing thousands to these owners and court costs,maybe just maybe one day you will realise breeding should be taken seriously and there is 
*NO ROOM FOR COMPREMISE*


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Well done Hessian. Thank you for explaining things so well. Good luck.
Chris


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Where do your breeding dogs come from Hessian? You say they are all 'pure bred' so isn't that a little hypocritical of you? How do you know you are not yourself perpetuating the problems that you are scorning, and just disguising them with YOUR new labels? Any 'purebred' ped has a chance of carryinmg and passing on the conditions that you think are relevent only to Kennel club dogs? 
I don't care what name/breed a pup has, for myself as a pet owner, and for every other pet owner I just want some reassurance that it has a chance of being healthy? i don't deny all the probs in peds you have identified, but without some real assurance that you don't have these probs in your breeding dogs too, how can you really say what you are breeding?
It is not arrogance to 'hide behind' health testing claims? How can it be when the responsible ones promoting this are laying them selves open to criticism from all angles, but do it for the welfare of the dogs they breed? To improve the healthy gene pool?

If you do not test the dogs you breed from you have every chance of passing on the probs from two different ped breeds to the pups? How is that helping?

Once again, don't try to turn this into a debate about peds v non peds, it's not. It's a simple question about responsible breeding [whatever it is you choose to breed] and whilst ignorance may have been bliss, now more and more people know of these issues, more and more people will be asking the questions. A dog is a lifetime commitment, people have a right to know whether the person breeding and selling is thinking about the welfare of future generations . It is not the 'new wave' of breeds I question, I welcome any pup, whatever it's breeding,it's the fact that someone can stick their head in the sand about what they are doing whilst chucking accusations at every one else .
There are healthy labradoodles, and ones with probs relating to the breeds they originated from, which would you rather have? 
By testing your dogs you can at least offer the purchasers of your pups the reassurance that you are doing everything possible to breed healthy pets? How can that ever be relegated to an issue of ped v nonped or passed off as breed snobbery?  Surely basic welfare surpasses all of those debates?


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Leah100 said:


> Where do your breeding dogs come from Hessian? You say they are all 'pure bred' so isn't that a little hypocritical of you? How do you know you are not yourself perpetuating the problems that you are scorning, and just disguising them with YOUR new labels? Any 'purebred' ped has a chance of carryinmg and passing on the conditions that you think are relevent only to Kennel club dogs?
> I don't care what name/breed a pup has, for myself as a pet owner, and for every other pet owner I just want some reassurance that it has a chance of being healthy? i don't deny all the probs in peds you have identified, but without some real assurance that you don't have these probs in your breeding dogs too, how can you really say what you are breeding?
> It is not arrogance to 'hide behind' health testing claims? How can it be when the responsible ones promoting this are laying them selves open to criticism from all angles, but do it for the welfare of the dogs they breed? To improve the healthy gene pool?
> 
> ...


Very well said!!!
Totally agree with you :thumbsup:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Once again you chose to miss the point. I will try to break it down so that it is simpler.
> LABELS. Self appointed ones do not count - I found this out when I called myself Hessian the Credit Worthy and went shopping. The people you refer to as ethical breeders shall for the sake of brevity be referred to as SAEB's.
> 
> SAEB's are the very antithesis of what should be promoted on a pet lovers forum. It is their continued intervention over decades that has brought us to the state we find ourselves in now. The prolonged meddling with the physiology of dogs - for their own ends, not the dogs it must be stressed - and then running to the vet to try and patch up the damage is shameful. To then hide behind health testing and screening for problems they have largely created themselves is just arrogant in the extreme.
> ...


Very interesting :yesnod:


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

'Let people, all people, have pets, natural pets without all the elitist sneering and criticising from a discredited bunch of yesterdays men. '

I really take issue with this too, makes me really sad to read! All anyone wants, is for People , All People to have the healthiest pets they can, the pets they deserve! After all, you're hardly a charity are you? Don't see you giving them away? You're not breeding Heinz 57s here, you are taking the dogs from the same stock you sneer at, mixing them up and flogging them on for enough money to see you staying at home.
And before you start another class war and accuse me of criticising Heinz 57s or any other mongrel, I'm not! at least with a true mongrel you might have a hope of the hybrid vigour you seem to think comes automatically by mixing two different peds.
You are cynically manipulating peoples' fears about the health probs of ped dogs, without offering any real assurances at all.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Tomorrow - the flagship event, Crufts, is in jeopardy


Do you have any hard facts or evidence to support this claim ?


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Before anyone says anything I have nothing against mongrels or pedigrees being bred , as long as the relevant healthchecks are done to both parents & the quality of life for these dogs is excellent

But when I see people agreeing that this Hessian person should continue to crossbreed dogs , none of which have undergone any health checks , it makes me burn ... for all anyone knows they are breeding puppies with defects from both breeds not just one , how can that be good ?

I guess it doesnt matter that any prospective owners of these puppies may be facing £1000's of vet bills in the future , will this Hessian person then admit that its their fault the dogs are in need of all the treatment cos they couldnt be bothered to healthcheck the pups parents (too much money to be laid out for that to happen im guessing) and stump up the cash to pay for their _intentional_ mistake


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Once again you chose to miss the point. I will try to break it down so that it is simpler.
> LABELS. Self appointed ones do not count - I found this out when I called myself Hessian the Credit Worthy and went shopping. The people you refer to as ethical breeders shall for the sake of brevity be referred to as SAEB's.
> 
> SAEB's are the very antithesis of what should be promoted on a pet lovers forum. It is their continued intervention over decades that has brought us to the state we find ourselves in now. The prolonged meddling with the physiology of dogs - for their own ends, not the dogs it must be stressed - and then running to the vet to try and patch up the damage is shameful. To then hide behind health testing and screening for problems they have largely created themselves is just arrogant in the extreme.
> ...


What an absolute load of old tosh, presumably what you spout to potential puppy buyers in order to convince them your crossbreeds, given silly names, bred from what I can only assume non health tested parents (as you are so unwilling to answer the questions abotu health testing) and, by your own admission, bred by you as your only source of income, for money.

Very few of the 200 plus breeds recognised by the KC has any or many serious or prolific health problems, and the situation is improving all the time improves as good breeders attempt to irradicate them.

I am, and always will be, first and foremost, a pet owner. My dogs live in my house, their home, with me (something I note yours don't seem to do as you feel the need to seperate them at night). I also show and breed, and yes, in a manner most would deem responsible and ethical, not just me.

Charging a decent price for a dog which is less likely to have health problems (and the law of the land agrees with this it would seem, as 'breeders' who don't health tests are now successfully being taken to court when the puppies they breed end up ill) doesn't mean they are only available to the rich, it means they are not available to the majority of people who would want to buy on a whim without giving proper thought, as most people cannot afford £500-£1000 without some sort of saving.

All that said, am not even convinced you even breed these puppies, you could have just as easily taken the pictures from the web. You are clearly on a wind up regardless of whether you bred them or not.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jackson this person has allready said they were not her pups
correct me if i'm wrong.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Yes I did. The mum is my little rough coat JRT Bonny. The dad was a hired gun Pug. Sorry for the delay in replying but watching the footie at the same time.


Janice, a quote from Hessian in response to someone asking if he bred the pups.


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

the puppies were an acident !!!!!!!!!!

and them mum is minnie 

gus is a jr dad!! JEEESH


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> the puppies were an acident !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> and them mum is minnie
> 
> gus is a jr dad!! JEEESH


dont worry about it ,you dont have to explain yourself to these lot, your not in court,


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> the puppies were an acident !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> and them mum is minnie
> 
> gus is a jr dad!! JEEESH


i thought the mum was bonny?


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> dont worry about it ,you dont have to explain yourself to these lot, your not in court,


note the above post is just general interest, im not trying to interrogate lol


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

OMH HUSSAIN I DONT EVEN KNOW YOU YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MY TWO JRxP!!!

STOPP HIJACKING#


the litter was not planned !!!

JEEEZE!!! 

THE PUPS ARE A NICE SUPRISE AND THEY ARE PLEASED!!

And are keeping both!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Do you have any hard facts or evidence to support this claim ?


is this a court? pmsl


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> is this a court? pmsl


lol sometimes it does feel like that hehe, we have some good potential lawyers here


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> is this a court? pmsl


hahaha,some seem to think so dont they,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Whoa back. I did Not start the post and the only reason that my pups were up there is that Hamsters original post had no pics and so I helped out. At no point have I put a for sale sign up. Any other pics are of pups already sold.





Natik said:


> is this a court? pmsl


it might just as well be...some ppl are so full of themselves they can't see passed their own noses..



jackson said:


> Janice, a quote from Hessian in response to someone asking if he bred the pups.


the top part of this post is what i was refering too...:nonod:


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

no the mum is not bonny its

minne

the guy has 

2 pugs lucy and minnie

minnie had an unexpected pregnancie.

and he ended up with two baby jugs (father too gus).

ALL THE OTHER BREEDERS ARE JUST HI- JACKING MY THREAD !!

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CELEBRATE THE ARRIVAL OF MINNES PUPPIES (aka bobo and dolly)


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

louise5031 said:


> note the above post is just general interest, im not trying to interrogate lol


i didnt mean you mate,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> no the mum is not bonny its
> 
> minne
> 
> ...


to be perfectly honest with you.your wasting your time...they are out to prove you in the wrong, no matter what you say...and i still think the pups are lovely


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> no the mum is not bonny its
> 
> minne
> 
> ...


congratulations on minnies pups,


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

:yikes:can someone CLOSE THIS THREAD!!

!!!
!
!
!
NOW PLEASE!! 

Thanks

xx
x


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ask one of the mods or mark.they will do it for you


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Hessian said:


> Once again you chose to miss the point. I will try to break it down so that it is simpler.
> LABELS. Self appointed ones do not count - I found this out when I called myself Hessian the Credit Worthy and went shopping. The people you refer to as ethical breeders shall for the sake of brevity be referred to as SAEB's.
> 
> SAEB's are the very antithesis of what should be promoted on a pet lovers forum. It is their continued intervention over decades that has brought us to the state we find ourselves in now. The prolonged meddling with the physiology of dogs - for their own ends, not the dogs it must be stressed - and then running to the vet to try and patch up the damage is shameful. To then hide behind health testing and screening for problems they have largely created themselves is just arrogant in the extreme.
> ...


Hessian, if anyone has missed the point it is you. You chose to answer my questions about whether or not your stud dogs and brood bitches are health tested and geneticaly profiled with a rant about your own misguided views about pedigree breeders and the Kennel Club. You are wrong on all counts about them, but that is neither here nor there. By all means keep spouting it if you feel it justifies what you do. You fool no-one except the poor misguided fools who buy a puppy from you - god knows what deformities you will be creating with your uncaring, indiscriminate breeding. Because you are definitely not testing the health of the dogs you bred from - if you were you would have answered my question in the affirmative instead of going off on stupid and ill-informed tangents about the Kennel Club, accredited breeders and Crufts.

If you knew anything at all about pedigree breeders, the Kennel Club and Crufts, instead of watching an inaccurate and misleading programme and then thinking you know everything, you would know that most breeders of pedigree dogs care deeply about their breed, and spend a lot of money on their breed. They do not sneer at puppy farmers such as yourself - they feel desperately sorry for the animals you produce, and the buyers you con. They worry about the new genetic illnesses and problems you will be creating because of your lack of research and health testing. And as for "demonising" people who breed god knows what with god knows what else just for the sake of money - well, you do not need pedigree breeders to do that for you. The facts speak for themselves.

I repeat my original question to you - how can you substantiate your claim that you are producing dogs who need less visits to the vet when you do not perform helath tests on your stud dogs and brood bitches? Are you able to answer this honestly and truthfully?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

can we just drop it now? the person has asked for this thread to be closed:


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Great read,but nicely avoiding again the health testing issue
> Perhaps you should stand for election,great waffle,withouts facts!
> 
> We health test to avoid passing on hereditary diseases,to use only clear dogs in a breeding programme,of course we could always take your stance and not bother,maybe pass on the vet expenses to new owners.Lets hope one day you end up in court owing thousands to these owners and court costs,maybe just maybe one day you will realise breeding should be taken seriously and there is
> *NO ROOM FOR COMPREMISE*


Well said SallyAnne. I agree totally.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> is this a court? pmsl


Of course not but when someone who I believe is here just to wind people up and cause trouble makes a statement like the following:Tomorrow - the flagship event, Crufts, is in jeopardy ,
I expect them to be able to substantiate their claims,as I've said before this is a forum and if your going to post in the way Hessian has expect it to be challenged!


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Leah100 said:


> Where do your breeding dogs come from Hessian? You say they are all 'pure bred' so isn't that a little hypocritical of you? How do you know you are not yourself perpetuating the problems that you are scorning, and just disguising them with YOUR new labels? Any 'purebred' ped has a chance of carryinmg and passing on the conditions that you think are relevent only to Kennel club dogs?
> I don't care what name/breed a pup has, for myself as a pet owner, and for every other pet owner I just want some reassurance that it has a chance of being healthy? i don't deny all the probs in peds you have identified, but without some real assurance that you don't have these probs in your breeding dogs too, how can you really say what you are breeding?
> It is not arrogance to 'hide behind' health testing claims? How can it be when the responsible ones promoting this are laying them selves open to criticism from all angles, but do it for the welfare of the dogs they breed? To improve the healthy gene pool?
> 
> ...


Well said Leah. Totally agree with you.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

JANICE199 said:


> can we just drop it now? the person has asked for this thread to be closed:


obviously not,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lol and who's interest is at heart here? you still feel the need to go on.....very sad


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

CANT FInD ANYONE TO CLOSE THREAD!!

RAWR!!


PLEASE STOPP COMMENTING!!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

......................:cursing:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Of course not but when someone who I believe is here just to wind people up and cause trouble makes a statement like the following:Tomorrow - the flagship event, Crufts, is in jeopardy ,
> I expect them to be able to substantiate their claims,as I've said before this is a forum and if your going to post in the way Hessian has expect it to be challenged!


alot of ppl make statements .... will we all have to attach files to prove what we say 

If he is a wind up...then why let urself getting winded up (sp)


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> very well said hessian, i agree totally,  good luck to you and your future breeding plans,
> i think you have done enough explaining to these members now, but sadly i doubt they will leave you alone,





JANICE199 said:


> *Hessian i think you've summed that all up nicely*





Mese said:


> Before anyone says anything I have nothing against mongrels or pedigrees being bred , as long as the relevant healthchecks are done to both parents & the quality of life for these dogs is excellent
> 
> But when I see people agreeing that this Hessian person should continue to crossbreed dogs , none of which have undergone any health checks , it makes me burn ... for all anyone knows they are breeding puppies with defects from both breeds not just one , how can that be good ?
> 
> I guess it doesnt matter that any prospective owners of these puppies may be facing £1000's of vet bills in the future , will this Hessian person then admit that its their fault the dogs are in need of all the treatment cos they couldnt be bothered to healthcheck the pups parents (too much money to be laid out for that to happen im guessing) and stump up the cash to pay for their _intentional_ mistake


I'm with you on this one Mese - excellent post. I'm shocked and horrified that people on here who call themselves dog lovers can somehow justify and support this Hessian person - for all the reasons you stated.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> ......................:cursing:


lol Cav I'm impressed, holding yourself back eh?!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> lol Cav I'm impressed, holding yourself back eh?!


lol im on to much medication at the mo so im keepin out of this


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

u-look-like-a-hamster said:


> CANT FInD ANYONE TO CLOSE THREAD!!
> 
> RAWR!!
> 
> PLEASE STOPP COMMENTING!!


i have sent mark a pm, hopefully he wil close it,


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> alot of ppl make statements .... will we all have to attach files to prove what we say
> 
> If he is a wind up...then why let urself getting winded up (sp)


I'm not getting wound up lol,
I think the person concerned is either very simple sad,or gets a kick out of their behaviour, (personally I think all three)but myself as a show person would like some clarification on the statement given.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2008)

come on guys this was turning into an interesting debate now its just a slagging match... boriiiiing...


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

closing this for moderating


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Ok, Ive deleted any posts which where just insults near the end. Im gonna keep this closed. before anyone says anything, im not taking sides with anyone. This is an open forum, the OP wants the thread closed. If people want to continue this debate, please create a new thread in the Dog Breeding section.

If ive missed any posts that are insultive please pm me about it. Thread is being closed.

Thanks
Mark


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