# Severe Schrodinger issues



## Dante (Feb 21, 2011)

Schrodinger has attacked.. again 

If you're not familiar with the background story, a quick rundown is that Schrodinger and his brother Pandora have what we believe to be territorial issues. Over the last probably two years we've had to have massive reintroduction (lasting months) sessions following on from their fights.. On more than one occasion, that aggression has been redirected at me leaving me bleeding and bruised and wary of my own cat. 

We do however, seem to have very long periods of time between these fights.. so much so, that we tend to forget there was ever a bad period.. until it happens again. Feliway seems to help the situation and if we ever are nearing the end of a refill, we know it. Sometimes though (like today) they defy the rules and go for it anyway.. so today, something set Schrodinger off at breakfast leading to full scale warfare and the OH having to separate them (I no longer go near them during fights as I'm petrified). This time however, he turned on OH - this is new. 

I went off to work, cats still separated and came home to find out that he'd attacked OH AGAIN about an hour earlier. He's never attacked me more than once in a day. About 30 minutes later, we tried to test the water again.. he was fine for about 10 minutes.. as soon as I left the room, he attacked OH again. THREE TIMES... IN ONE DAY!! OH's trust in him is understandably shattered now & he's left feeling how I was following my previous attacks.. like I either wanted to put him outside (he's an indoor cat) or rehome him (as much as it'd pain us both). 

We've tried for over 2 years, and it's always been a case of 'oh this will be the last time it'll happen..' and it'll seem that way for a while, then BAM - something switches in his brain and he morphs into a psychotic, frenzied killing machine. Sometimes there isn't even an obvious trigger, this morning for example. 

I feel like I should be taking him for a brain scan/full body check - because he just isn't right. I wouldn't even want to bet that being an only cat would stop him from attacking people..


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Oh my, that does sound like a very difficult situation for you. Get him checked by a vet, hopefully there is something triggering it that can be fixed. 2 years is a long time to wait to see if things get better lets see but I don't think anyone would blame you for seriously thinking about rehoming him. It may make him a happier cat to be on his own or with another cat that doesn't set him off.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh gosh dante,
I am so sorry.
Anyone who has never been on the receiving end of a full on cat attack may really not understand just how ferocious and scary they can be. Not to mention the amount of physical damage they can do.
Is it time to take him for vet checks....brain scans?....to make sure there is nothing such as a tumour causing this aggression? 
After that I would consider a behaviourist and/or specific drugs to curb the aggression.
I guess you have tried the basics of Feliway/Zylkene/RC calm food?


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2011)

This is it, if you explain that you've been attacked to someone who hasn't experienced it.. they either look at you like you're mad or laugh. I have physical scars from him and now my OH will too.. on his last attack this evening, HE got the run of the house because me and OH shut ourselves in separate rooms until he calmed down and one of us was brave enough to go out and round him up into his own room. Not exactly the right way around! 

Feliway is always on, tried Zylkene before but couldn't see much noted difference.. Haven't tried RC Calm, but I always feel like these things are just holding something back and he'll snap at some point. 

I'd feel a bit weird just going to ask a vet for a scan with no solid reason - any advice?


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Dante I do feel for you. I had the same with beau my much missed raggie. He was always a Jekyll & Hyde character when we had the Persians but when Kalle & Kyrre arrived things went to another level. He was a 6kg cat and when aggressive was truly frightening. He was very much my cat as well which didn't help. In the end I re homed him as a single cat and whilst he isn't the soppy raggie that most people think of he is far happier than what he was here.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Dante, sorry to hear about this latest development. If it is due to territorial issues then he would probably be fine living as an only cat, as it is only with his own species he would be territorial. He is attacking you because of misdirected anger/aggression as you have observed. I am sure it is his brother he is angry with, as you have sussed.

When it is a territorial issue at stake it is not always easy for us humans to see what has set it off. From his point of view there could be a rational reason why he got so upset. Remember that as far as cats are concerned the humans they live with are their 'territory' just the same as the home is. Perhaps there are issues there, with Schrodinger feeling possessive about you or your OH.

MRI scans of the brain are very expensive as you probably know. (e.g. £600 or £700 or so) Unless your vet agrees the aggressive behaviour may indicate a physical cause you would be hard pushed to get the Insurance Co to pay for a scan, without other symptoms I think. However worth speaking to the vet about it I think. Perhaps make some detailed notes of the episode whilst its fresh in your mind, to take with you to the vet.

If the vet thinks the cause is NOT likely to be physical then I would recommend a behaviourist as PP suggested. These people are very good, and will come to your home to assess the cat. Most Insurance policies cover it, as long as the vet makes the referral.

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I had similar issues with my first cat, Sooty. I rescued him and Tamla at the same time, although they were not brought in together. Certain things would trigger him off and he was like a demon cat. I know though that his were probably through not being associated with the life of a domestic cat.

As has already been recommended, I would definitely consider a vets visit to check there isn't something else going on.

My sheepie is normally quite placid but with his medical issues, when these flare up, he can be unpredictable. 

I feel for you....its hugely scary when a cat lashes out. xxx


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

please do not feel foolish....but do seek the advice of your vet immediately.

When I was young we tamed up several feral cats, it took time but they became great pets. When I was a little older we took in a stray who was totally domesticated....but he had bad rages and went in to full attack mode. It was usually me who was on the end of it and I had to literally beat him off at times.
deliberate aggression is completely different to a scared cat lashing out, so I know how scared you must have been.


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2011)

Before anything else, he will see a vet.. However, OH currently wants nothing to do with him. This is how I felt when he attacked me but obviously I had a quicker recovery period with him, after 3 attacks in a short space of time OH can't currently walk around without fear of being lunged at again.

As such, Schrodinger spent the night in the spare room & due to his incessant yowling, so did I.. on a hard floor, just to shut him up 

So he has territorial issues but has an extreme dislike to being left alone/away from everyone else. Can't win.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhh (((hugs))) - reading your post reminded me of Mia is so many ways

She too will attack me when she goes into one of her 'rages' - haven't yet been able to come up with another word to try to describe them

Her & Archie had a similar circle of tolerate - get on ok - tolerate - spat - horrible fighting - separation - slow reintroduction - tolerate ..... 

The circle used to last around a year and was copeable with but sadly new cats moving in next door meant that she was constantly seeing them / going bananas & had sadly started to attack Maisie & me too if we were in the way & Archie wasn't around for her to take it out on 

The last one - it was 4 DAYS before I could even go into the spare room without her attacking me  - it is horrible and I will say I was really scared of her as they can be very viscious and you can get badly hurt with awful deep scratches and bites which can turn really nasty

I did try to rehome her - seemingly perfect home as an indoor cat in a flat 

The change in Archie was remarkable - after a couple of weeks he stopped being so jumpy and was sleeping on my pillow again and he put on weight and although still going outside 1st thing, was coming in before I went to work 

Sadly after a few weeks, it went downhill in Mia's new home & she started to attack them / toilet everywhere .... So .... I had to bring her home - oh boy, was that a mixed bag of emotions as, when she's 'herself' she really is the most affectionate, cuddle bucket of a cat I've ever known  but I was so worried how Archie would react to her being back as he'd just come out his shell and was the 'old' Archie again 

When I went to collect her, I came across a Siamese in the street and she could obviously see that out the window which 'set her off' pretty much constantly 

So ... we now know for def that even seeing another cat is too much for Mia - she's terrified of them & really loses the plot when she sees another one and will attack anything in her way when she does 



They are now totally separated - and I sadly can't even leave Mia out when I'm not here in case she sees other cats outside and attacks Maisie again .... 

So it's a case of one in / one out and never the 2 meet .... a bit like musical cats 

She is on Zyklene and will be for some time, they both have free access to RC Calm and I use Feliway & Pet Remedy when needed

It's not easy and can be quite stressful BUT we're making progress and I'm very pleased to say that now she's been totally removed from the source of her fear, there's been no more aggressive outbursts - however, trying to isolate a cat from ever seeing another cat isn't easy! 

The first few weeks were really hard but we've now settled into a routine which allows them both to feel safe and secure and both to have time out & about in the house so it's a lot easier than when she 1st came back 


Sorry that's really long  I just wanted to say that if you can find the trigger for what sets him off and hopefully put a routine in place to avoid it, then there is hope that he'll stop attacking you/OH


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2011)

We've played musical cats for too long  Pandora is always separated if we're not home and at night time, but he's not the problem cat so I feel so guilty he is put away. Schrodinger just will NOT tolerate being put in a room in his own though, he doesn't tire of meowing so Pandora it was. 

I just feel like it's a sub standard life for both of them, stressing the girls out too when it kicks off (but they are never attacked, just us  ) but I do worry that rehoming him would sadly end up like it has in Mia's case.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhhh tell me about the guilt! 

Their territory issues (way before the other cat issues) were because of me  - Archie had always slept on my bed & he wasn't having any of her coming in the room but she wouldn't let it go and that's when their fighting 1st started


We are lucky that Mia isn't (maybe should rephrase that) / doesn't seem at all bothered being separated & in the spare room

Of course, I'm sure she'd rather be out & with me but she isn't stressed being in there - it's always been her safe room from when she was a tiny kitten and was in there.

I feel awful shutting Archie in my room so she can get out for a bit BUT that's where he feels safe and TBH in the evenings, I can shut the door and go back 3 hours later and it would appear he'd not even moved! 

I can hear if he jumps off the bed so if I do and think he wants out, I go up and check on him but, after the 1st couple of weeks he doesn't do it anymore

It's almost like he knows that being shut in there while she's having some wander time is OK as it means he's safe & she can't get to him


I would so love to know what goes on in their heads & be able to explain that it's safe & there's enough attention to go around for everyone ....


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2011)

Schrodinger has been to see the Vet this morning - as expected really, nothing obvious found but she has run full blood works on the off chance, although again I don't expect them to come back showing anything. She has suggested that we talk to their head nurse once the results are back as she's the 'cat lady' and can talk through behavioural issues with us. 

To say I'm not an emotional wreck at the moment would be lying, I even burst into tears when she asked me what we'd do if the results came back clear..  

After another on and off night of sleep, we've now settled on OH sleeping in the lounge with the door shut, Pandora in the spare room and me in the bedroom with the other 3 having the run of the house. This seems to be the only way that one or the other of the boys won't make a racket all night long.. 

This is obviously a temporary measure, this is musical cats worse than ever before but we have to sleep or we will completely lose it. 

One day at a time at the moment but OH is certain he's never going in a room with Schrodinger in ever again.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Dante, I am so sorry, it looks as though there is not going to be an easy answer to this problem with Schrodinger, as the vet considers it unlikely to be a physical health issue.

I am reminded now that you have 2 female cats as well as the 2 brothers. Now this is another reason for Schrodinger to have territorial issues, as he is not one of 2 cats but one of 4, which makes a big difference in a cat's world. i.e. the more cats there are in a household the more likely there are to be behavioural problems.

Schrodinger is much less likely to have issues over territory with the 2 girls, as it is often the way with cats that opposite sexes get along much better than same sex, and this also applies even if the cats are neutered/spayed.

It is the same in my house, my neutered males get on very well with my 2 spayed females, but one of the boys does not get on with the other 2 boys, and has to be kept apart from them. Now, very sadly, I am having to re-home him, after 
trying for 18 mths to integrate him, without success.

By all means speak to the nurse at the Vet's but unless she is properly qualified with a recognised training in cat behaviourism you are not likely to be any better off. Also, she would need to come out to your home and make an in depth observation herself of how the cats interact with each other and with you, if her advice is to be of value.

I do recommend contacting COAPE, the organisation I mentioned before. Their animal behaviourists have about 3 or 4 years training and are excellent. Here is the link again in case you would like it:

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Several years ago I took on a year old cat for someone who could no longer keep him. Cut a long story short as he gained in confidence he got on fine with my three old girls but became more and more aggressive towards my longstanding male neuter. My young son became too frightened to walk past him, my mum took to wearing wellingtons to come downstairs when she stayed, and the final straw was when he badly bit my father. It was with much sadness I rehomed him as a single cat, and he never looked back. I really feel for the situation you are in, there are no easy choices.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhhh Dante, I really wish I could say something to make things better  I know how awful it is to be living in fear of your cat and not knowing which way to turn 

I know how awful the feeling of actually almost hoping there is a medical explanation for it as, horrible as that would be, at least it means there's something to explain it and hopefully if not cure at least treatment that may help

(((hugs))) hoping you can find a solution .....


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## My5Kitties (Jan 19, 2014)

I thought we had problems with Salem but they're nothing compared to what you're going through Dante.

Salem's always had a bit of bully streak in him picking on firstly our oldest male (Muldy) until we lost him (not related) and then our oldest female (Cadbury). He also quite happily bites down on my hands given half a chance.

Every now and again he would just fly at her for no apparent reason. This all came to ahead 2 months after we lost (Angel) our then alpha male who seemed to keep Salem in check. I only work mornings and was about an hour late getting home and walked in on what looked like WW3...no cats and fur and claws all over the kitchen floor.

Long story short we have to keep Salem & Cabs apart now. As they are 13 & 15 yrs old I really don't want to think about re-homing Salem because I know they've both got more years behind them than in front of them, although my Husband feels very differently about this, especially as Salem managed to break free recently and attack Cabs again (Cabs is his cat).

I've now started using Dr Bach's Vine Flower Remedy on Salem to try and calm his bullying nature...time will tell if it does any good.



> I know how awful the feeling of actually almost hoping there is a medical explanation for it as, horrible as that would be, at least it means there's something to explain it and hopefully if not cure at least treatment that may help


Totally agree Lilylass

Rachel


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2011)

The tests came back all clear, no surprises there. They've said the next step is behaviour therapy like you mentioned chillminx and they have given us the name of the cat specific therapist that they send referrals to if we decide to go down this route - Vicky Halls Cat Behaviour Counsellor - Support for Cat Behaviour Problems

I want to try everything we can but have to take OH's feelings into account (we haven't had a chance to talk this through yet due to shift patterns) but we have both said we're concerned that they'd visit and immediately just say it's because our house is too small for four cats... which really, we know already but what's done is done.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

There are people in smaller houses with more cats than you. You also give them access to the outside, so don't beat yourself up about that hun.

Is Schrodinger insured? If so, it would be worth checking the policy to see if behaviour issues are covered too. I know we can get behaviourists for the dogs, if referred.

Like others, I really wish I had the answer for you xxx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Dante said:


> The tests came back all clear, no surprises there. They've said the next step is behaviour therapy like you mentioned chillminx and they have given us the name of the cat specific therapist that they send referrals to if we decide to go down this route - Vicky Halls Cat Behaviour Counsellor - Support for Cat Behaviour Problems
> 
> I want to try everything we can but have to take OH's feelings into account (we haven't had a chance to talk this through yet due to shift patterns) but we have both said we're concerned that they'd visit and immediately just say it's because our house is too small for four cats... which really, we know already but what's done is done.


Vicky Halls is a really good cat behaviourist, so you should get some excellent advice from her:thumbsup:

If you live in an averaged 3 bedroomed semi, or terrace, with a garden, and the cats have outdoor access, then the maximum number of cats the experts recommend living with you is 3. However so much depends on the individual personalities of the cats. I know several people with 4 cats in average size houses, and the cats live peaceably together coming and going and doing their own thing.

Other cats, perhaps like Schrodinger, may be happier as an only cat. Or they may be OK living with a cat of the opposite sex, but not the same sex.

I doubt Vicky Halls would just walk in and say the size of the house is the problem. Unless you lived in a huge house (which most of us don't) where your cats could spread out so much their paths rarely crossed, it is likely the same 
problems may exist with Schrodinger anyway.

Vicky Halls would not be doing her job if she condemned you immediately like that, in any case. What she will do is observe how the cats interact with each other and with you and your OH. Then she will give your a written assessment with a plan of things you could try, that might improve the situation.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

My5Kitties said:


> > I've now started using Dr Bach's Vine Flower Remedy on Salem to try and calm his bullying nature...time will tell if it does any good.
> 
> 
> You might find it more effective to give Salem a course of Zylkene, which is a supplement derived from milk. It contains an ingredient which is very good at calming cats who are stressed over territorial issues. You need to give it daily for a month to see any benefit. Open the capsule and mix with food. Cats find it palatable.
> ...


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## My5Kitties (Jan 19, 2014)

Thank you Chillminx for the link I will look into that. 

I have to say I am starting to see some results with the Vine essence and he's loving having a head massage everyday.

Rachel.


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