# advice needed please



## Izzie999

Hi all, 

So we bought a 60 litre Juwel tropical tank from our pet store. Think I would have been best going to a specialist aquarium shop as its been a bit of a disaster. 

We followed the instructions to a tee, set it up, took water in for testing after two weeks, they sold us 10 neons and three Cory fish. After four days we had our first loss which apparently is down to white spot. The shop sold us some medicine which we used straight away, turned the tank light off etc. We have now lost three Neons, Corys seem ok. I really need advice on what to do next, my son and I are feeling a bit disheartened, will not be buying fish from that store again thats for sure. 

Can anyone give me some practical advice on how to proceed please? I think we are going to lose all the neons at this rate, I did a water change today but Im not very hopeful at this point. Are we going to have to start again? 

Thanks in advance!

Izzie


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## NaomiM

Firstly, hi, and sorry for your losses.

Whitespot often strikes in new setups because it can lie dormant until the fishes' immune systems are weakened by poor water quality, namely the presence of ammonia and/or nitrite.

How did you cycle your tank? From what you've said, I fear that you may have been yet another victim of poor advice. Unless you were adding a source of ammonia during those two weeks, there would have been nothing to cause any good bacteria to develop in your filter. These bacteria are necessary to process the ammonia and nitrite that come from fish waste. Your test readings would have been fine once you bought the fish because in an unstocked tank there was nothing to produce ammonia; however as soon as you added fish, the ammonia from their waste would have started to build up. This is highly toxic to all fish, and neons in particular are not at all hardy these days due to over-breeding for the aquarium trade.

You're now stuck with a catch-22 situation, as you need to do large water changes to deal with the ammonia, but every time you do one, you're obviously also removing meds from the tank. O fear you will probably lose more fish before things get any better. :-(

Right, on to the practical advice:

-Get yourself a decent liquid drop test kit ASAP. The API Master Kit is usually recommended. Test for ammonia, nitrite and, for good measure, pH as well, and post your results here. These results will help to give a guide as to how bad the situation is, and how much of the water you should be changing, and how often.

-If possible, get hold of some Seachem Prime, and dose enough for your whole tank daily - this can help to minimise the damage done by ammonia. If you can't get Prime, look for another product that's listed as an 'ammonia binder' or 'ammonia remover' etc.

- Keep dosing the whitespot meds (what specific medication is it, by the way?) and remove any carbon from your filter, if present, as this will make the medication ineffective.

- Google 'aquarium nitrogen cycle' and read up on it!

Sorry you've had such a bad start to the hobby - sadly it's often the way that aquatic stores, even specialist ones, give poor advice, either due to lack of training or simply that they're more interested in profit than the welfare of the fish.


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## Izzie999

Hi Naomi,
Thanks very much for your reply. 

We had added bottled bacteria when we set the tank up but from what I understand that might not be good enough. Will look for that ammonia binding product and will get the API test, at the moment we have the tetra strips but I dont think they are very reliable? We had already removed the carbon from the filter as advised by the pet store. I have also been told that contrary to the way we were told to introduce the fish to the tank,we should have infact taken them out of the bag with a net and NOT put the contents of the bag in the tank as the water could have been infected  i guess we will learn the hard way?

I did a water change of about 25% today, the fish had their medication on Saturday and will have another one tomorrow. We are also going to visit an aquarium shop on Wednesday for advice. Would just like to get the water quality right and take it from there really. Have kind of lost my confidence but Im determined we will get it sorted and get it right. 

Best wishes

Izzie


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## Bethnco

Don't give up...it took me months to get it right... Thanks to poor advice.

However, once I tested the water and added 4 rosy barbs. It seemed to sort out.

I can't add any more advice than you've already been given as I'm no expert. My tank was running 4 years in the end, with very few changes of fish...


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## Izzie999

Beth I appreciate any advice right now,Im just trying to stay positive but did not expect losses so soon Feel very bad for the fish.

Izzie


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## Bethnco

I felt very much the same... I think I cried the first few times I lost fish.

I enjoyed keeping my fish, but I lost many after our move. They survived it, but started dying in the days following.

One thing I will say is don't remove any substrate/ornaments/filter from the tank because that keeps the good bacteria there. Also, once the levels are normal range, don't add too many fish at once. Initially I kept it to 4/5 small ones at a time to allow the tank to get used to added extras. 

My local aquarium place advised me through my time keeping an aquarium and they rarely steered me wrong.


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## Izzie999

Hi Beth, 
I really appreciate the advice, I am adding some more plants this week, I just wish that the shop had asked us more questions to be honest, the more I read the more I realise we were had bad advice from the pet store. You live and learn but its just sad that some fish have died because of my inexperience AND lack of good advice really.

Have ordered a API master test kit but that will take a week to get here,in the meantime Im going to ask an aquarium shop to test the water for us again because Im not convinced the tetra strips are really accurate. Think we will be avoiding neons after this, go for a more hardy fish and from a better source.

Thanks again for your support, its really appreciated.
Izzie


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## NaomiM

It's happened to many of us, me included. I started out with two goldfish in an uncycled 14l tank, thanks to bad advice from my local aquatic shop! I soon discovered my mistake, but lost both the goldfish unfortunately  However, in the process of trying to save them, I bought a second-hand 70l tank, which is now a thriving tropical tank. I've learnt so much from here and other forums.

Until your test kit arrives, I'd suggest maybe doing 50% water changes every other day, and topping up the meds to make up for the amount of water removed. Ammonia poisoning is even worse for the fish than whitespot.


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## Izzie999

Hi Naomi,

Been to the aquarium shop where they tested the water for us. NOT good news, they warned us we are likely to lose every single fish. Have done a 50% water change also told to clean filter and have added this really disgusting smelling stuff called Special Blend, a fast acting bacteria. We need to get the water quality tested next week and take it from there.

Once this is all done will be looking for new fish, something colourful and hardy, any suggestions would be much welcome!

Thanks
Izzie


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## NaomiM

Sorry to hear that. Did they tell you any actual numbers for the test results?

Did you manage to get hold of any Prime? Combined with regular water changes, it might just save some of your fish.

If it were me, I'd also be having words with the manager of the aquatic shop you got them from, as it's their poor advice, combined with whitespot from their tanks, that's caused this situation. If they offer to replace the fish that died, though, be sure to ask for a credit note so that you can replace them later rather than immediately - the last thing your tank needs right now is more fish.

If the worst does happen and you lose all your stock, you'll need to thoroughly clean out your tank and do a full fishless cycle with ammonia before getting any new fish, to avoid this happening again. We can guide you through this, but it does take time and patience - but is well worth it for a happy healthy tank.


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## Izzie999

Hi Naomi,

No they didn't give us any figures for the test but they used the liquid test 
Kits not just strips.

Today so far we have no losses, the Seachem Prime should arrive in a few days.
We are doing water changes every other day at the moment. 

Let's hope we don't lose everything,keeping as positive as possible, I need to calm down before I speak to the shop, right now I'm really angry,feel they have done it purely for the sake of selling fish without considering the impact on the poor fish and how upsetting it has been for my 11 year old son,he had saved up all his pocket money for the fish. 

Izzie


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## NaomiM

Sound like you're doing all you can for them. Hopefully your stuff will arrive soon and you can see where you stand. Unfortunately the "let it stand for a few days then add fish" approach seems to be what a majority of aquatic shops advocate. As you say, their priority is making money, and from their point of view, if your fish get sick you'll then be purchasing medicines, water treatments and replacement stock. I've learnt to research everything myself online and get advice from experienced fishkeepers on forums such as this and Tropical Fish Forums UK - Index (another great source of advice).

Sorry for your son - I know how you feel, my first fish and tank were a birthday present for my toddler, and even now if one of my fish gets ill he gets all concerned.


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## Izzie999

Hi Naomi,

Thank you for that link I will check that forum out, I think we need all the non pet shop advice we can get. 

Have been doing 50% water change every other day, so far so good, the Seachem Prime is on its way as is the water test, think this will be our best equipment purchase yet. No more losses for a few days so holding my breath and staying positive.

I think once we are ok with the tank Adam will really enjoy the hobby, he is looking at other species of fish for the future. Think we will stay away from the Neons now.

Thanks again for your advice. 

Best wishes

Izzie


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## NaomiM

When you come to the point of choosing new stock, choosing fish to suit your local water's pH and hardness is always a good idea, as they will live longer and be healthier. The API test kit includes a pH test, and your local water board's website should give you some idea of hardness. Neons and corys both prefer soft, acidic water. Good options for hard, alkaline water include guppies, platys and endlers. Some easy, hardy fish for softer, more alkaline water include harlequin rasboras, cherry barbs, cardinal tetras (very similar to neons but generally hardier) and quite a few others (neutral to acidic water gives more options than the hard, alkaline water that I unfortunately have )


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## Izzie999

NaomiM said:


> When you come to the point of choosing new stock, choosing fish to suit your local water's pH and hardness is always a good idea, as they will live longer and be healthier. The API test kit includes a pH test, and your local water board's website should give you some idea of hardness. Neons and corys both prefer soft, acidic water. Good options for hard, alkaline water include guppies, platys and endlers. Some easy, hardy fish for softer, more alkaline water include harlequin rasboras, cherry barbs, cardinal tetras (very similar to neons but generally hardier) and quite a few others (neutral to acidic water gives more options than the hard, alkaline water that I unfortunately have )


Thank you that is really helpful advice.

So we have had no losses for three days and the fish seem somewhat more energetic at the moment, fingers crossed we will lose no one else.

Today we tried the fish with tubifex,they really seemed to love it, we also have sinking food now for the Cory fish. I must admit they are my favourites at the minute so so cute!

Talking about ph is there nothing you can do to change your alkaline etc? without harming the fish?

Izzie


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## NaomiM

Glad things seem to be improving  Fingers crossed for you!

A fluctuating pH causes more problems than a too high/low pH, so it's generally best to leave well alone imo. The pH adjusting products you can buy from aquatic stores will cause all sorts of swings, particularly if you have soft water. In hard water there's not much that will make a huge difference anyway. There are a few more 'natural' methods of adjusting pH that some people use - e.g. a coral sand substrate or certain rocks will raise pH, and adding alder cones or Indian almond leaves will lower it - but it's best to test in an empty tank or bucket of water first to see just what effect they'll have, and use with caution. If you have hard water/high pH and really want to keep soft water species, the safest option is to use remineralised RO water rather than tapwater, but this can get expensive!

Either way, my advice would be to check your water's pH and hardness first, and go from there - it may well turn out that your water is great for the species you want to keep anyway


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## Izzie999

Hi,

Well the water test arrived and the ph was 7.6 which is a tad high isnt it?

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates were all good with a 0 ppm value. So I dont want to mess with the ph too much but will start looking at fish that can cope with this kind of ph value.

Thanks again for all the advice,we really appreciate it.

Izzie


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## NaomiM

pH of 7.6 is a tad high for species that come from softwater areas such as the Amazon, but perfect for livebearers such as guppies, platys and endlers, and there's quite a few others that will do OK in that water. Just be sure to research before you buy - Seriously Fish ? Feeling fishy? is a good site for checking fish's requirements 

That's good news about your other water parameters, but I'd err on the side of caution and keep doing daily water tests for a few more days to be on the safe side. Nitrates of 0 is unusual - are you shaking the 2nd bottle vigorously for at least 30 seconds before using it, and then shaking the test tube for a further 60 seconds and waiting the recommended time for the colour to develop? Normally even tapwater contains some nitrates (mine contains 40+!) and the good bacteria in the filter should be producing more as they process the ammonia and nitrite.

Definitely don't add any more stock just yet, until you're 100% sure all is well in your tank and the whitespot has been completely wiped out.


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## Izzie999

Hi Naomi,

definitely shook the bottle and test tube, have read the instructions about ten times before doing the tests lol.

testing daily and did the test again yesterday same result but the ph has some how come down to 7.2 so feeling a bit better about that. Will check that link out for the fish. 

Thanks again 


Izzie


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## NaomiM

If you're getting varying readings for the pH in your tank, I'd advise you to test the pH of your tapwater (let it stand for 24 hours first in an open container such as a cup to get a true reading) and also to check your water company's website to get an idea of your water hardness. Fluctuating pH can cause problems if it swings this way and that too much.


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## Izzie999

Hi,

Well no losses for a week, so Im feeling hopeful, will test the ph of the house water and see whats what, not sure who are local water company are, its more complicated to get info like that here in Switzerland. 

Thanks for the ongoing support. Will get there in the end.

Izzie


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