# Stud advice?



## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

Hello my fellow crazycatfolk!

I have been looking at potential bsh studs and am coming across a fair few who offer their boys to both active, and non-active queens?
So my question is, is this allowed? 
It doesn't seem good practice to me.. but perhaps I'm just being overly cautious?
Any tips on what to look for would be very much appreciated .
Xx


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Do not go to anyone who offers their stud to non-active queens - they are just promoting back yard breeding by doing so


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Kate84 said:


> I have been looking at potential bsh studs and am coming across a fair few who offer their boys to both active, and non-active queens?
> So my question is, is this allowed?


In my experience, studs who are offered to non-active queens are usually non-active themselves, or maybe not even registered at all. I would avoid any breeder offering their stud in this manner.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

lymorelynn said:


> Do not go to anyone who offers their stud to non-active queens - they are just promoting back yard breeding by doing so


I thought as much. What a shame huh?


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

Tigermoon said:


> In my experience, studs who are offered to non-active queens are usually non-active themselves, or maybe not even registered at all. I would avoid any breeder offering their stud in this manner.


Thank you! : )


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Its allowed unfortunately, but I agree absolutely. Either they are not registered active, or their owner is greedy. Neither are something you want to be mixed up with. Also, make sure any stud owner is willing to send his pedigree before you commit. Actually you've never committed until your girl is in his pen, but you know what I mean.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Its allowed unfortunately, but I agree absolutely. Either they are not registered active, or their owner is greedy. Neither are something you want to be mixed up with. Also, make sure any stud owner is willing to send his pedigree before you commit. Actually you've never committed until your girl is in his pen, but you know what I mean.


Ahh, that's so helpful!
I did wonder if you were able to request such information, as I for one would want to trace pedigree back to avoid any type of crossbreed.
My girls will all be blood and pkd tested, FeLV/FIV, claws clipped etc and I will be wanting the same in a stud.
Do you have any helpful questions I could/should be asking to weed out the bad from the good?
Also I'm wondering with your knowledge and experience, would you recommend using a stud that has his own secure living quarters, as opposed to those that offer matings within the home?
I often wonder if the combination of unfamiliar surroundings with an 'audience' may be off putting.
Not to mention the worry of possible escape... Thats a major concern for me


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Kate84 said:


> Also I'm wondering with your knowledge and experience, would you recommend using a stud that has his own secure living quarters, as opposed to those that offer matings within the home?


I wouldn't take a girl to a stud that didn't have his own accommodation. There are too many risks within a home environment, imo, not only of escape.
Some stud quarters have video cameras to watch that mating has taken place - you really need matings to have been witnessed in one way or another and it is okay to ask how the stud owner ensures this.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

_I for one would want to trace pedigree back to avoid any type of crossbreed._

If he's a registered BSH then you are not creating a cross-breed whatever colour he is. However do look at the BSH registration policy which is quite complicated to see how the colour combination of your girl and him sits.

It's good to trace back, if you use Breeders Assistant you can get quite a lot of useful information, and there is at least one useful on-line pedigree website with BSH, pawpeds.com. There are probably others but they are not my breed so I don't know what they are.

Personally I would be astonished if you find someone keeping a stud in the house, but I guess those people exist. However he should in my view have a secure pen for 'entertaining', if only because you have to be sure your girl doesn't mix with any other cats than him. A secure pen will have a double door. The one Lola went to first time didn't but it was in their back yard from which there was no escape!

Some cats will happily mate with an audience, others won't. No way of knowing beforehand. Lola took care to only allow herself to be mated when she thought no-one was watching. The stud owner has never seen Aoife mate but she gets pregnant, whereas Eadlin didn't mate until the stud owner helped by pushing her bum up off the ground, at which point she started paddling and so on!


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

lymorelynn said:


> I wouldn't take a girl to a stud that didn't have his own accommodation. There are too many risks within a home environment, imo, not only of escape.
> Some stud quarters have video cameras to watch that mating has taken place - you really need matings to have been witnessed in one way or another and it is okay to ask how the stud owner ensures this.


Brilliant, thank you xx


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> It's good to trace back, if you use Breeders Assistant you can get quite a lot of useful information, and there is at least one useful on-line pedigree website with BSH, pawpeds.com. There are probably others but they are not my breed so I don't know what they are.


I shall have a nosey on that


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Personally I would be astonished if you find someone keeping a stud in the house


I found lots today : (
Certainly makes you wonder....


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Eadlin didn't mate until the stud owner helped by pushing her bum up off the ground, at which point she started paddling and so on!


That's hilarious! We really are such slaaaaves! Too funny!
P.s - love their names!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> I wouldn't take a girl to a stud that didn't have his own accommodation. There are too many risks within a home environment, imo, not only of escape.
> Some stud quarters have video cameras to watch that mating has taken place - you really need matings to have been witnessed in one way or another and it is okay to ask how the stud owner ensures this.


Have to say if my girl spends several days in his stud house and turns out to be pregnant I'm quite happy to assume he is the father... However the woman whose stud I used last time now has web cams, though it's not recorded so you have to look at the right moment to see the action.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> Have to say if my girl spends several days in his stud house and turns out to be pregnant I'm quite happy to assume he is the father... However the woman whose stud I used last time now has web cams, though it's not recorded so you have to look at the right moment to see the action.


:Facepalm:Facepalm


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Personally I would be astonished if you find someone keeping a stud in the house
I found lots today : (_
_Certainly makes you wonder...._

I know of breeders who keep their own boy for their own use and have him inside but I honestly don't think it's OK if they're going to charge for visiting queens. It's in these situations you end up with a girl just being thrown in the same room as a stud, no proper queen's quarters, no proper settling time etc. The risk to both queen and stud is not acceptable.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

The benefit of spending time showing neuters before going ahead with multiple breeding cats is you get to know other breeders and have an idea what type of stud will suit your girl later.

Often also allowing access to closed studs, as they've gotten to know you.

You've got time to do this with you kittens, the person who's passed on an adult female should be mentoring you and finding a suitable stud.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

spotty cats said:


> The benefit of spending time showing neuters before going ahead with multiple breeding cats is you get to know other breeders and have an idea what type of stud will suit your girl later.
> 
> Often also allowing access to closed studs, as they've gotten to know you.
> 
> You've got time to do this with you kittens, the person who's passed on an adult female should be mentoring you and finding a suitable stud.


I have two bsh fixed boys and have visited a couple of shows - although participating isn't my thing.

You have already made an earlier comment on a previous post about me 'jumping in'... perhaps I have, but my passion and dedication goes above and beyond.

Yes I do have plenty of time for my kittens and my proven queen won't 'call' until March (hopefully) but everyday I am researching to ensure I get everything right, and this is a great place to gain invaluable knowledge and advice from those willing to give it - for which I am most grateful.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_You have already made an earlier comment on a previous post about me 'jumping in'... perhaps I have, but my passion and dedication goes above and beyond._
I don't doubt it but passion and dedication are no substitute for knowledge and experience. It's very difficult on a forum like this to get across the right balance of support and warning. Just like Spotty I too am appalled at someone selling you a a 'proven queen' without proper mentoring - not your fault but it is a measure of your lack of experience that you didn't know it would be frowned upon by other breeders. Harsh at it may seem I'd be wary of allowing your queen into stud with the background as you've described and no introduction. We all have to start somewhere I know and it's much easier with the right support. I'd strongly advise you join a breed club and attend shows to get to know other breeders in the hope you find someone experienced to mentor you. Even after forty years I appreciate having someone I know on the end of a phone.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

havoc said:


> _You have already made an earlier comment on a previous post about me 'jumping in'... perhaps I have, but my passion and dedication goes above and beyond._
> I don't doubt it but passion and dedication are no substitute for knowledge and experience. It's very difficult on a forum like this to get across the right balance of support and warning. Just like Spotty I too am appalled at someone selling you a a 'proven queen' without proper mentoring - not your fault but it is a measure of your lack of experience that you didn't know it would be frowned upon by other breeders. Harsh at it may seem I'd be wary of allowing your queen into stud with the background as you've described and no introduction. We all have to start somewhere I know and it's much easier with the right support. I'd strongly advise you join a breed club and attend shows to get to know other breeders in the hope you find someone experienced to mentor you. Even after forty years I appreciate having someone I know on the end of a phone.


Appalled? Really?.. Wow that's quite a statement. 
First off, I have never said that the Breeder she is coming from is/has not been mentoring me - So no idea where that has come from?
I simply find it helpful to get advice from other more experienced breeders as everyone is different.
I also don't understand what you are saying about allowing her to stud with no introduction??? - I am simply doing my homework well in advance. What's wrong with that?
I have recently joined three cat clubs fyi.

Thats a lot of assumptions there you have made about me which seems unfair.

I recently joined this forum in the hope of finding supportive people... Seems I was wrong to do so.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't mean to be unfair which is why I pointedly used the term 'as you've described' because the information you've given is painting a particular picture. Someone being properly mentored does not need to look for a stud, they take the advice of their mentor and are introduced to stud owners through that mentor. My boy's name is going to feature on the pedigrees of every kitten he sires for at least the next three generations. That means my name, my reputation is also on the line. Darn right I want to know who's asking to use him.

You'll find a stud, specially with that breed. There are plenty around available to anyone as long as you've got the cash. Whether they're what you'd choose if all doors were open to you is something else altogether. The advice you're getting on here is to open doors, ignore it and they'll close.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

_Appalled? Really?.. Wow that's quite a statement._

It's a statement made out of 'passion and dedication'. As to the breeder mentoring you, that was brought up right at the start of your other thread:

_Her breeder should be helping mentor you with things like this_

Since you didn't say they were the assumption was they weren't.

You are being clearly told by people with lots of years of experience that you are taking on an awful lot for a new breeder. Owning a stud isn't for the faint-hearted, and you could well be underestimating the amount of time raising a litter can take. If you have a background of fostering queens with new babies you've not mentioned it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> You'll find a stud, specially with that breed. There are plenty around available to anyone as long as you've got the cash.


Kate, Havoc is right. BSH have been my passion for 30 years and there is no other breed that comes anywhere near them for the sheer amount of indiscriminate breeding practice. There is a large core of good, ethical breeders but they are nevertheless still vastly outnumbered by people who have little or no connection to the cat fancy and whilst some may be well meaning, the majority are just there to take your cash (be it for kitten sales, adult cats passed on for breeding or stud fees) most usually with very sad consequences that I hear of on a weekly, if not more, basis. The internet/free ad sites are awash with them and without someone who can guide a new breeder away from them, they can be impossible to distinguish from the good, ethical breeders.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

havoc said:


> I don't mean to be unfair which is why I pointedly used the term 'as you've described' because the information you've given is painting a particular picture. Someone being properly mentored does not need to look for a stud, they take the advice of their mentor and are introduced to stud owners through that mentor. My boy's name is going to feature on the pedigrees of every kitten he sires for at least the next three generations. That means my name, my reputation is also on the line. Darn right I want to know who's asking to use him.
> 
> You'll find a stud, specially with that breed. There are plenty around available to anyone as long as you've got the cash. Whether they're what you'd choose if all doors were open to you is something else altogether. The advice you're getting on here is to open doors, ignore it and they'll close.





gskinner123 said:


> Kate, Havoc is right. BSH have been my passion for 30 years and there is no other breed that comes anywhere near them for the sheer amount of indiscriminate breeding practice. There is a large core of good, ethical breeders but they are nevertheless still vastly outnumbered by people who have little or no connection to the cat fancy and whilst some may be well meaning, the majority are just there to take your cash (be it for kitten sales, adult cats passed on for breeding or stud fees) most usually with very sad consequences that I hear of on a weekly, if not more, basis. The internet/free ad sites are awash with them and without someone who can guide a new breeder away from them, they can be impossible to distinguish from the good, ethical breeders.


I understand completely. I just feel a bit jumped on here.
I agree there are a huge number of 'backyard' breeders who are happy to throw a pair together to rake the coins in.
Thats not, and would never be my intention. 
I have my first little girl here now, who I have already done blood testing and pkd tests (just sent off) and in an earlier thread of mine I stated there was a bit of a language barrier with her Breeder. 
My other two are coming next month and the same will be done for both of those.
The Breeder is always on hand to answer questions, but im sure I must drive her nuts with my constant questions (hence why I joined here)
I would never ignore anyone's advice and am only too grateful to receive it.
I am in the process of having an outdoor cattery built, enclosed with a run, heating and light.
This is a hobby for me - and you don't make money off of hobbies.

I have requested my account be closed as I am now sat here in tears.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Kate84 said:


> I understand completely. I just feel a bit jumped on here.
> I agree there are a huge number of 'backyard' breeders who are happy to throw a pair together to rake the coins in.
> Thats not, and would never be my intention.
> I have my first little girl here now, who I have already done blood testing and pkd tests (just sent off) and in an earlier thread of mine I stated there was a bit of a language barrier with her Breeder.
> ...


Nobody is jumping on you intentionally. People are trying to encourage you to think . I don't breed cats but I will be joining the ranks of (hopefully) dog breeders in 2018 after my male import gets here from the US.

I have been questioned numerous times by people within the dog world, more than once. I've had everything from a simple 'why?' to and how are planning to do 'x,y and z' and you know what I appreciated it. People can be become so impassioned, and you know what that's great for us new breeders to be because you know the advice and questions are coming from a great place. These people care immensely about their cats and their breeds, they may seem hard but who better to get advice from then these stewards of their breeds?

They want the best, they expect the best and as newbies we should darn well should want to give them our best too. Us new breeders (of anything) stand on the shoulders of the greats of the past, it is our duty to ensure we continue their wonderful work in improving breeds, health etc


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> Nobody is jumping on you intentionally. People are trying to encourage you to think . I don't breed cats but I will be joining the ranks of (hopefully) dog breeders in 2018 after my male import gets here from the US.
> 
> I have been questioned numerous times by people within the dog world, more than once. I've had everything from a simple 'why?' to and how are planning to do 'x,y and z' and you know what I appreciated it. People can be become so impassioned, and you know what that's great for us new breeders to be because you know the advice and questions are coming from a great place. These people care immensely about their cats and their breeds, they may seem hard but who better to get advice from then these stewards of their breeds?
> 
> They want the best, they expect the best and as newbies we should darn well should want to give them our best too. Us new breeders (of anything) stand on the shoulders of the greats of the past, it is our duty to ensure we continue their wonderful work in improving breeds, health etc


Thank you for your kind words.
We are all passionate and all care immensely, which is why I think I am so upset right now.

My mum bred bsh for some years but she passed away last year and so I don't have her to lean on.

Perhaps I am being overly sensitive, but I just felt judged which isn't a nice feeling. 
Not when you know your heart is in the right place.

I apologise to any of you that I may of offended in any way. That was never my intention.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your new pooch and future furbabies.

Xx


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Kate84 said:


> Thank you for your kind words.
> We are all passionate and all care immensely, which is why I think I am so upset right now.
> 
> My mum bred bsh for some years but she passed away last year and so I don't have her to lean on.
> ...


Please don't feel judged. Whilst I don't personally know any other forum members, I've been a member here for several years and that definitely would not have been the intention of those who posted. It is difficult though not to judge or form an opinion of a breeder who is happy to pass on adult cats for breeding, especially to a new breeder - but that is a judgment upon them, not you. The practice is far less common in most other breeds, but not (to some extent) in the BSH where some prefer to squeeze every last penny from their cats, rather than spay/neuter and find a pet home for a retired breeding cat at little or no cost - and a good proportion do not ever part with cats they no longer intend to breed from.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ It is difficult though not to judge or form an opinion of a breeder who is happy to pass on adult cats for breeding, especially to a new breeder - *but that is a judgement upon them, not you*_

Absolutely!


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

gskinner123 said:


> Please don't feel judged. Whilst I don't personally know any other forum members, I've been a member here for several years and that definitely would not have been the intention of those who posted. It is difficult though not to judge or form an opinion of a breeder who is happy to pass on adult cats for breeding, especially to a new breeder - but that is a judgment upon them, not you. The practice is far less common in most other breeds, but not (to some extent) in the BSH where some prefer to squeeze every last penny from their cats, rather than spay/neuter and find a pet home for a retired breeding cat at little or no cost - and a good proportion do not ever part with cats they no longer intend to breed from.


Thank you 

And yes, I totally see your point about passing on the adult.
This was to make space for new blood lines.


gskinner123 said:


> Please don't feel judged. Whilst I don't personally know any other forum members, I've been a member here for several years and that definitely would not have been the intention of those who posted. It is difficult though not to judge or form an opinion of a breeder who is happy to pass on adult cats for breeding, especially to a new breeder - but that is a judgment upon them, not you. The practice is far less common in most other breeds, but not (to some extent) in the BSH where some prefer to squeeze every last penny from their cats, rather than spay/neuter and find a pet home for a retired breeding cat at little or no cost - and a good proportion do not ever part with cats they no longer intend to breed from.


Thank you so much : )

I totally get your say on the adult.
I can't say too much on here (just incase) and my heart definitely over ruled my head on that one - but I'm a sucker!
Needless to say, she will have an amazing forever home with me.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

Well, I definitely 'ballsed' that up! : /


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Kate...... Please don't be upset or disheartened by posts. You will receive so much knowledge here to help you be a good breeder.
Everybody has to learn, plus you are getting advice from some of the best experienced breeders here.
Chin up hun, Rome wasn't built in a day.

I have been breeding cats for many years and i still learn every day.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

catcoonz said:


> Kate...... Please don't be upset or disheartened by posts. You will receive so much knowledge here to help you be a good breeder.
> Everybody has to learn, plus you are getting advice from some of the best experienced breeders here.
> Chin up hun, Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> I have been breeding cats for many years and i still learn every day.


Thank you catcoonz, I really appreciate that.
We all have to start somewhere, and I'd rather ask all the right questions now, as opposed to getting it wrong further down the line. ; ) xx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Getting it right at this point will save you a bucket load of misery later on. It's too late once the good stud owners are refusing you and you can't work out why. Which organisation are your cats registered with?


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

havoc said:


> Getting it right at this point will save you a bucket load of misery later on. It's too late once the good stud owners are refusing you and you can't work out why. Which organisation are your cats registered with?


Absolutely!
They are all GCCF registered and I have recently joined Yorkshire cat club, British shorthair cat club, and southern british shorthair cat club. : )


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's great they're all UK registered already. At least you aren't having to mess around with certified pedigrees and transfers. Now to networking  It really is worthwhile. Find out when the clubs you're joining do their show and offer to help. So few members do and it's far less daunting helping with a raffle than trying to talk to people as a show visitor.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

I will do. Although it's all a bit scary : /

Which breed are you into?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Showing opened the way for me to use studs normally at closed stud. I've met lots of people, most between OK & absolutely lovely, and I've met a few really nasty people. I ignore those, and inwardly rejoice when my cat beats their cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I hate showing. I'm not the slightest bit competitive and (surprisingly) sensitive where the nasty few are concerned. I feel completely cornered in a show hall if I'm showing. Helping is a different thing altogether. I'll happily pour tea or sell raffle tickets all day long


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Ah I still love showing  I do like the competition, but also I'm proud of what I'm breeding. Expo's I have a love/hate with, but again it's so lovely to show off the cats and introducing people to the breed, it's the lead up I think ugh but once I'm there it's fun.


Can you not back out of the adult girl? Now you've had some time to think about it.


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## Kate84 (Jun 8, 2016)

spotty cats said:


> Ah I still love showing  I do like the competition, but also I'm proud of what I'm breeding. Expo's I have a love/hate with, but again it's so lovely to show off the cats and introducing people to the breed, it's the lead up I think ugh but once I'm there it's fun.
> 
> Can you not back out of the adult girl? Now you've had some time to think about it.


No, I have made a commitment to her .
But I am thinking more towards neutering and retiring her once she has settled in.
The overall costs are very high, but I will just take that as a lesson learnt. : )


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Expo's I have a love/hate with, but again it's so lovely to show off the cats and introducing people to the breed_
Whereas I have no problem with exhibiting - no worries about the cat being badly handled by judges


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

We get to watch the judging here, so stewards and judges do get scrutinised sometimes lol Expo's we mostly handle our own cats at our displays but judges will also do breed talks to the public, no problems letting them handle the cats.


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