# Recreational Sheepdogs



## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Games to redirect frustration (think is was lemmsy who gave me this link) YouTube - Sheepballs with Dot

Has anyone taken their dog to sheep? Had any fall out afterwards like increased chasing?

This local Dog Trainer/Behavourist works her dog, Connor who will be doing a demo YouTube - Dog Obedience Trainer does Sheepdog Handling but did warn me that Connor's harder to manage, due to increased chasing. Connor's a lovely dog though!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hey Rob, 

Yeah sheepballs is great. The perfect herding activity for dogs with no sheep. 

My boy has been assessed with sheep and will work (although was hesitant to at first due to the control/chase recall stuff we had worked on prior). I'm currently trying to find somewhere closer (place we went to was 3 hours away), where we could train. The difficulty is, and many people have said this to me, if you have a WSD type, once you open the "sheep work box", you want to be sure that you can offer the dog the opportunity to practice and train as regularly as possible, otherwise it is unfair on the dog. 
The person who we did the assessment and sheep work with (as big in the agility scene- works his dogs in both), said to me that as I did agility with my dog and he was perfectly happy with that, he didn't "need" sheepwork as much as some of the other dogs did. But due to his ability, if I was keen to etc, definitely worth pursuing...

So yeah, that's the situation I'm at. I haven't really experienced any increased chasing issues. We don't come into contact with many sheep or livestock on walks, although regularly walk through fields with horses. But mine go on leads, when walking through fields with horses or livestock anyway (I had to do lots of desentization to movement of horses with him when he was a youngster).


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


RobD-BCactive said:



Games to redirect frustration (think is was lemmsy who gave me this link)

Click to expand...

*


RobD-BCactive said:


> *YouTube - Sheepballs with Dot*
> 
> *Has anyone taken their dog to sheep? Had any fall out afterwards like increased chasing?*
> 
> *This local Dog Trainer/Behavourist works her dog, Connor who will be doing a demo **YouTube - Dog Obedience Trainer does Sheepdog Handling** but did warn me that Connor's harder to manage, due to increased chasing. Connor's a lovely dog though!*




Yes I have and my sister used to compete in sheepdog trials. With the same collie she also worked Ch C obedience, did agility and HTM.

The only fall out I had with mine was that if we passed a field of sheep, she would stop and look wistfully.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

When I watch my dog "playing" or the way he moves, so much behaviour looks exactly like WSD and the key to understanding his "peculiarities" has been found in books & video on WSD training. It's extremely hard not to be curious, so far his introduction to sheep was accidental, yeppers he chased but our recall was solid (thank you R+) 

Many ppl seem to find it works out well, and their dogs are very peaceful and calm afterwards. Though they're damn keen to work, once they're into it.

It would seem my dog would also benefit less. It is still very very tempting though to sort a "try out", partly out of curiousity to see if his strong eye, and sticky tendency occurs with moving sheep. Judging by his dog herding attempts, I suspect not.

Anyway, this summer is decision time really, I either find a convenient option and go for it, or he'll stay with agility, possibly flyball and I fancy doing a tracking day with him. A benefit of organised activity, is the sociability with other dogs around it, that I don't get in the park, when the dog is just off (laughs RL as I said the GR's name and my BC started barking like it was his speak command) after herding dog toys, and me deciding on structure whole time, rather than just doing what he's bred to do can be wearing.

[ I actually wanted a "cooler" breed that was a touch easier but it's hard to persuade a family of Collie ppl to really consider an alternative, particularly as all the other breeds have "Gotchas!", better the devil you know factor operates. ]

I'll try and post a link to a film of his herding game, though it needs someone else to do the filming, as it's pretty fast moving and involves working me to.

Looking forward to hearing more experiences, or other activities to redirect the instincts. Agilitie's fun, but if a dog has his "herding on" then it probably isn't the total solution.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Tell me (cos I am the curious type) if you have a WSD and you are in the vicinity of sheep and your dog shows instinctual drive (herding) and you take it away from that situation, do you not think that you are being insensitive to the dogs actual breed. 

I find it fascinating that you can redirect the instinct into other herding type games, but does that not, then produce the need in the dog to herd "EVERYTHING" incuding humans? 

I hear a lot about BC's who herd the children and nip at their heels, in the domestic household and owners trying to sort this problem out through behaviourists.

Which brings me onto a working breed herding dog in a domestic situation. Is that right?


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

In an ideal world Grandad I agree with you. Working breed dogs should be in working homes doing what they were bred to do. Far too much indiscriminate breeding means that far too many end up in domestic homes, but that's a whole new subject and one I could rant about for a very long time. People who want a pet dog should buy a pet dog.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I had some sheep at one point so my dogs have herded. I had some lessons first. It didn't have any impact on any other part of their lives, but the English Shepherds are not obsessive dogs so are quite happy to work or not.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> In an ideal world Grandad I agree with you. Working breed dogs should be in working homes doing what they were bred to do. Far too much indiscriminate breeding means that far too many end up in domestic homes, but that's a whole new subject and one I could rant about for a very long time. People who want a pet dog should buy a pet dog.


Start a thread then


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

grandad said:


> Tell me (cos I am the curious type) if you have a WSD and you are in the vicinity of sheep and your dog shows instinctual drive (herding) and you take it away from that situation, do you not think that you are being insensitive to the dogs actual breed.
> 
> I find it fascinating that you can redirect the instinct into other herding type games, but does that not, then produce the need in the dog to herd "EVERYTHING" incuding humans?


No, just like the WSD's Shepherd the dog, herds what he's allowed to.


> I hear a lot about BC's who herd the children and nip at their heels, in the domestic household and owners trying to sort this problem out through behaviourists.
> 
> Which brings me onto a working breed herding dog in a domestic situation. Is that right?


That's poorly trained dogs in my opinion, my dog, is solid against children running about and playing. No accident, habituation and teaching him to ignore them, cycles and other things. Of course if he was just left to own devices, he might very well try and join in, hence need for activity and supervision, rather than allowing free roaming.

Well everyone seems to think my dog likes it, they see him having a great time. He's followed me in here and is happily switched off asleep right now. He's not a pet dog, he doesn't like too much petting; he'd be totally unsuitable for most dog owning families, despite the appearances when he meets them.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> In an ideal world Grandad I agree with you. Working breed dogs should be in working homes doing what they were bred to do. Far too much indiscriminate breeding means that far too many end up in domestic homes, but that's a whole new subject and one I could rant about for a very long time. People who want a pet dog should buy a pet dog.


Thats a very sweeping statement. There are a lot of working bred dogs in unsuitable homes I agree- but not all of them. I've got a Springer and shes a pet, with an active life. I'd say shes probably happier than a lot who do 'work'.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Thats a very sweeping statement. There are a lot of working bred dogs in unsuitable homes I agree- but not all of them. I've got a Springer and shes a pet, with an active life. I'd say shes probably happier than a lot who do 'work'.


Have you seen working bred springers at work? 
Their lines are bred from generations of working stock, without (hopefully) any show blood. This means they are hard wired to HR. By not using that ability, we could be/may be doing the dog an injustice. 
Having said that, there are a a number of S&R and DD dogs that come from working stock. But they are still, using their senses for which they were bred.

My view is that if you have a working bred dog for a pet, be aware of it's background and the lines from which it is bred, and watch out for those instinctual behaviours it may display. They maybe what you want, but then again they may not be. As in a herding dog, herding the children or the retriever that keeps fetching things to you, (washing) or the setter that bogs off and runs around 100's of yards from you, seemingly out of control, but in actual fact is air scenting looking for game, or the terrier that brings a rat into the house


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

BC's and other Collie's do great in good hands.

Personally if someone finds themselves with signs of herding instinct expressed in a ISDS or Farm dog, or even a KC dog; then I'd suggest they invest in Andy Nickless's Sheepdog Training DVD for beginners : First Steps in Border Collie Sheepdog Training - From ChAOS to CONTROL! on training dogs to sheep, because then very much will become clear. Certainly afterwards documentaries & shows like One Man & His Dog, will be understood much better. The books that I've seen dont' explain as well and cannot show example clips of dogs in action to illustrate the point. They also tend to be written for Sheep Farmers.

That apparently "disobedient nuts" dog, is often "working" and if you as a Handler understand the dogs tendencies, then you can minimise the problems and even take advantage of the foibles. This is basically what the working gundog Spaniel owners are saying, when someone's upset that their dog is pulling on way to the park etc.

After your survey of the Performance Dog Sport world, you'll find BC's dominate, not just in the UK with dogs bread for the sheep industry. There's reasons for that, and a WSD also becomes trained not to do these undesirable things, except when they're working.

Training, challenges & work, benefit these pastoral workinug dogs (not just Collies, GSD's and other breeds). Most breeds are working breeds originally. Your logic taken to full extent, would mean Labs & GR's could not be used as Guide Dogs or pets, despite their huge popularity. How many owners keep them from water to keep them clean?


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Thats a very sweeping statement. There are a lot of working bred dogs in unsuitable homes I agree- but not all of them. I've got a Springer and shes a pet, with an active life. I'd say shes probably happier than a lot who do 'work'.


I agree. It is a generalisation. I too have a working bred dog who is a pet with a very active life. But I stand by my statement that far too many are in unsuitable homes. If your dog is happy in a pet home then you obviously understand her needs and give her what she needs to keep her mentally and physically well.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

*Your logic taken to full extent, would mean Labs & GR's could not be used as Guide Dogs or pets, despite their huge popularity. How many owners keep them from water to keep them clean?*

They may be use these breeds, because they have been bred over the years to be gentle, laid back and un-flappable. I also think that those organisations, choose their "dogs" very carefully and are sent to stable homes for the first year of their lives and are monitored very closely. 
But you have made me curious about something, which requires another thread.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

grandad said:


> They may be use these breeds, because they have been bred over the years to be gentle, laid back and un-flappable. I also think that those organisations, choose their "dogs" very carefully and are sent to stable homes for the first year of their lives and are monitored very closely


And the Guidogs for the Blind, *train their dogs very carefully using Rewards Based methods*, not all dogs pass, these dogs sometimes return to their puppyhood home.

Perhaps a well trained dog, that's exercised and doing activities with owners, is happier than a couch potato/fireside dog?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> BC's and other Collie's do great in good hands.
> 
> Personally if someone finds themselves with signs of herding instinct expressed in a ISDS or Farm dog, or even a KC dog; then I'd suggest they invest in Andy Nickless's DVD on training dogs to sheep, because then very much will become clear.


I have a DVD by Linda Rorem which shows how to train other herding breeds (GSD's, Beardies, English Shepherds etc)who have a different herding style to BC's/WSD's.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> And the Guidogs for the Blind, *train their dogs very carefully using Rewards Based methods*, not all dogs pass, these dogs sometimes return to their puppyhood home.
> 
> *Perhaps a well trained dog, that's exercised and doing activities with owners, is happier than a couch potato/fireside dog?*




I'd agree with that.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Grandad- you may interested to know that breeders of certain breeds, such as the Border Collie, the Belgian Shepherd, GSD etc are actually breeding their dogs for performance in dog sports (such as agility, schutzhund, etc). 

Many would question the need for such breeding (to a certain extent, a dog is a dog and when it comes to dog sports and activities, alot has to be attributed to the quality of the training). Nevertheless, without doubt there will be certain characteristics of course that make a more desirable dog, that thrives in working in such a field. 

Not my area of expertise ATM in any case (I have tended to fall for the private rehome, rescue, "special" types )

Similarly- just thought I'd point out that with regards, to Guide Dogs for the Blind; their training methods (r.e. use of positive reinforcement but ALSO positive punishment) is something that is heavily debated and was a topic for discussion at the most recent annual APBC conference (which I attended). They do use positive punishment ( they didn't give details but my understanding was that it was through "leash corrections" and other such methods). Their justification is that they need to have a dog that WILL solidly ignore food objects on the pavement etc. nevertheless, I still feel that there could be better ways of proofing against this. They also punish the dog by having the "trainer" (acting as a false blind partner) falling (and the dog also as a consequence) as a result of the dog's error. Again not sure how I feel about this one either... 

But in any case... back on track. 

When it comes to WSD (or working breeds) and your argument (or question? not sure) that it would unfair on the dog were they to not be worked in their original field of work.
- I'd be inclined to agree that that is a bit of a sweeping statement. Whilst I agree that there are some dogs (WSD types) that do need sheep work (or a suitable alternative- ducks anyone?). There are many (and the vast majority of collie types in my experience) who will do well provided they are treated as a collie (i.e. they are understood and accepted for what they are), they have a great bond with their person (or people) and are given a suitable activity that caters to the characteristics of the dog (whether that might be agility, working trials, flyball, competitive obedience, treibball, HWTM, assistance dog, search and rescue service dog, police sniffer dog (yes there are BCs that do this job ). 

Absolutely they are working dogs and need to be treated as such. But that does not mean that they cannot thrive without the original working activity, especially provided they are supplied with a decent alternative. I actually think some urban collies do far better than some of their rural homologues. I know of two collies, near where my family live; one of whom is chained all day because he is too strong for the sheep (and the shepherd CBA to work with him, uses a quadbike instead). The other (different farm) works once or twice a week tops in peak time, the rest of the time he is left to his own devices. 
A person I know also recently rehomed a WSD lines collie who was going to be shot by the farmer (he couldn't get him to work the sheep- wouldn't surprise me if he will eventually (once more confident) be happy to work for someone he can trust). His coat was in an awful state, he was starving, had been chained for over a year (and has sores on his neck as a result) and seems to have been hit. 
He totally shuts down if anyone he doesn't know (and has taken a long time to trust) approaches him or looks at him (even if at a distance). He will also urinate in fear. Someone who observed him as a puppy said, he was never so fearful then. 

Compare this (and of course don't get me wrong, there are many FANTASTIC shepherds and sheep dog handlers- I have a family friend who is one of them and rehomed a puppy farm, over-bred bitch and has given her a great life, she lives to work the sheep and work WITH HIM)...
...
with a WSD who lives in an urban environment. Recieves plenty of training and socialisation and is worked and trained at a really good say agility, or working trials club, or is being trained as a search and rescue dog. They get plenty of exercise, plenty of opportunity to work, has a great relationship with their handler/person, their health and wellbeing is of top priority to the owner/person...

Who would you rather be?


Back on topic to Rob's original question.

Many people who start recreational sheepwork with their dogs are recommended ducks (depending on how their dog works) to practice with, especially if they are unable to accomodate getting themselves a small flock to practice with. I know that Richard Curtis, initially at least, got some ducks (they flock remember) to practice and train with Pogo. Think he's got himself a small flock of sheep now though


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> with a WSD who lives in an urban environment. Recieves plenty of training and socialisation and is worked and trained at a really good say agility, or working trials club, or is being trained as a search and rescue dog. They get plenty of exercise, plenty of opportunity to work, has a great relationship with their handler/person, their health and wellbeing is of top priority to the owner/person...
> 
> Who would you rather be?
> 
> ...


Many Collie owners here have rescue dogs from sheep areas like Wales & Ireland, often with harrowing tales and generally flinch reactions. Hopefully it's the poor farmers bad at dog training that fill the rescues, rather than the average situation. Andy Nickless claims a very high success rate with the BC, including ones from Rescue.

Darn it, I trained my dog to ignore ducks as a puppy. Anyway he is doing pretty well with dog toys and balls; without my games ppl have commented that the dog gets less calm, despite good exercise; so whilst I haven't seen any Scientific info on avoiding frustration by utilising the instinct, it seems to fit plausibly with the evidence. Mind you he's just fallen asleep having lined up 2 tennis balls, it was funny earlier as he organised variosu dog toys, next to my cycle and bag into a flock, whilst we were out.

Shame about the Guide Dogs, I guess the punishment for "Leave It!" seems quicker, especially as you're asking them to auto not do something which should be rewarding. It would not be possible, like in counter surfing thread to build an unbreakable settle to avoid the food I would think. If there's a better way to prevent being affected by food destraction, without any cue, perhaps it could appear in another thread?

The ones I met that got retired early were urinating in shops & another scavenging food. They had clearly been R+ trained for things like heeling and what they show that I've seen in documentaries is rewards based.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Grandad, I haven't seen working bred Springers at work in the sense you mean- I haven't got the opportunity here. I dont think Mollys got a really high prey drive anyway, it may be due to the way I raised her, with my free range chickens and because locally I'm surrounded by sheep? I know her parents and they have a much higher drive. Shes off lead on every walk- so I dont think I'm doing her any injuctices


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> Grandad- you may interested to know that breeders of certain breeds, such as the Border Collie, the Belgian Shepherd, GSD etc are actually breeding their dogs for performance in dog sports (such as agility, schutzhund, etc).
> 
> Many would question the need for such breeding (to a certain extent, a dog is a dog and when it comes to dog sports and activities, alot has to be attributed to the quality of the training). Nevertheless, without doubt there will be certain characteristics of course that make a more desirable dog, that thrives in working in such a field.
> 
> ...


B]My view is that if you have a working bred dog for a pet, be aware of it's background and the lines from which it is bred, and watch out for those instinctual behaviours it may display.[/B]Back on topic to Rob's original question.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Please don't be inhibited to pose follow on questions, it would be nice to have a discussion resource of the issues. The questions I posed were more openers, so we could pool experience.

I think I've realised that the games I do with my dog, are herding to him. When I'm away he apparently gets less calm, possibly due to some pent up frustration. Just walking, swimming, running and being off-duty doggie, isn't enough.

Whilst BC may herd when playing fetch, I think other games which simulate working, are easier for my stand ins, who physically cannot throw toys far enough, or have not encouraged him to stalk & drive to a toy, which then "bolts" away suddenly for him to gather.

I am pondering whether to forget formal type retrieve outside in the park, and just view our fetch games as herding. I can have a reasonable retrieve in garden or in a hall; but his instinctive movements make it very hard for him to bring toy all the way back. He actually is holding the toy against me the handler, so if I walk away, he auto brings it closer. If I walk towards, he tends to back off, also anticipating a throw.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Some new info and little update, wonder if anyone has tried "busking" with a BC demo, once I got asked to demo the dog to tourists in my park 

At pub, I was enjoying the Beer Garden and it was settled around so I let him be off leash and play ball, he soon got an audience of diners through windows and a few ppl outside. They really laughed when I had him balancing, I would switch sides and he would fly to where I had been to cover the potential escape.

I've been given some very nice floating "durable rubber" balls made by Ancol, as a thank you gift, and they roll faster and bounce higher and longer than Tennis balls, so are a big hit with my lean mean elite herding machine!

A nicely presented summary of WSD trialing - The Working Border Collie. Perhaps de-geesing golf courses would be a real fun option?



> Their great energy and herding instinct are still used to herd all kinds of animals, from the traditional sheep and cattle, free range poultry and pigs, and ostriches. They are also used to remove unwanted wild birds from airport runways, golf courses, and other public and private areas


Funny thing is, I've got my BC ignoring the wild Geese, but the GR goes haring off after them :lol:


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> In an ideal world Grandad I agree with you. Working breed dogs should be in working homes doing what they were bred to do. Far too much indiscriminate breeding means that far too many end up in domestic homes, but that's a whole new subject and one I could rant about for a very long time. People who want a pet dog should buy a pet dog.


So what about the vast number of collies that have failed with sheep? Lots of them don't have the drive to work, and an early scary experience can put them off sheep for life. Others just don't get it, no matter what they were bred to do. These dogs end up in pet homes (if not pts) and, given an active stimulating home with some other job to do, they make great pets.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*So what about the vast number of collies that have failed with sheep? Lots of them don't have the drive to work, and an early scary experience can put them off sheep for life. Others just don't get it, no matter what they were bred to do. These dogs end up in pet homes (if not pts) and, given an active stimulating home with some other job to do, they make great pets.*

Very true. My sister used to trial her collie and many of the trial trainers/shepherds/enthusiasts seem to get through large amounts of collies per year in the quest to find the right dog. As you rightly say many end up in unsuitable pet homes or are PTS sadly.


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

Agree with Burrowzig and Twiggy

My boy is an Irish rescue who was chucked out on a motorway - The rescue think this could well have been due to being rubbish with sheep. They tested him when he came into rescue and he just wasn't interested.

He does have herdy traits - but he uses them with his tennis balls and a miniature schnauzer friend (maybe he has a funny idea of what sheep look like  )


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Pawsitive said:


> My boy is an Irish rescue who was chucked out on a motorway - The rescue think this could well have been due to being rubbish with sheep. They tested him when he came into rescue and he just wasn't interested


Andy Nickless's DVD covers this, he took in 10 rescues and with patient and encouraging training, every single dog was able to work sheep to basic standard at the end of it. Not every dog is a star, but he showed quite a few tricks, and one dog who was sent to him as "not interested in working" at 1 yr old, soon seems to enjoy it. There was an underlying sentiment from a for money WSD trainer that many succumb to blaming the dog rather than considering changing their approach to suit.

A lot of the BC rescues I meet, appear to have been hit and such, so I suspect the "lack of interest" may be due to bad experiences, or overly young pups having scares through biting off more than they could chew thanks to poor supervision.

The trialling dogs, everyone in sport wants a top performer not just a solid "mainstay" that can do the job OK but is nothing special. At the Agility Event the handler of a Spaniel told me about her rescue Collie and commented on some top Agility competitors having 7 dogs, not pets they just get rid of them if they think they're not good enough.

Now for pet owners, that's hard to understand, but finding a good new home, is likely better than having a dog be neglected and live on in limbo, with someone who is focussed on being an elite champion performer.


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> A lot of the BC rescues I meet, appear to have been hit and such, so I suspect the "lack of interest" may be due to bad experiences, or overly young pups having scares through biting off more than they could chew thanks to poor supervision.


I agree with you. Reubs has a horrible scar round his neck, he used to flinch if a hand came towards him and god forbid if you touched his collar or spoke in a louder voice - he became a nervous wreck and melted into the floor.

I think WSD etc don't necessarily have to work sheep/livestock to be stimulated and happy - agility / flyball / treibball etc are all good ways to give them a job, as long as they enjoy it of course.

I remember watching a youtube vid where the guy was giving his collie lots of herding commands, without actually herding anything, and the dog was absolutely loving it.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*The trialling dogs, everyone in sport wants a top performer not just a solid "mainstay" that can do the job OK but is nothing special. At the Agility Event the handler of a Spaniel told me about her rescue Collie and commented on some top Agility competitors having 7 dogs, not pets they just get rid of them if they think they're not good enough.

Now for pet owners, that's hard to understand, but finding a good new home, is likely better than having a dog be neglected and live on in limbo, with someone who is focussed on being an elite champion performer.*

I'm afraid that's true with certain competitors in all dog sports and as you say, in some cases the dogs may be better off in another home. I personally have never gone down that road because mine have always been pets first, good, bad or indifferent with regards to competing, once they've come through the door as puppies they have a home for life.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Pawsitive said:


> I remember watching a youtube vid where the guy was giving his collie lots of herding commands, without actually herding anything, and the dog was absolutely loving it.


Which ones do your dogs know reasonablly well?

Freddie : Stop (Stand), C'm-by, A-way, Look back, Lie down, That'll do (recall but I actually use That'll do as an off switch after play), Walk on, Off.

It's fun to use the WSD cues where compatible, with general everyday basic obedience. I can't film too easily using them, as I have to be active to in herding games. Hard enough holding camera steady and filming fetch


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

Freddie is more impressive than my two!  

Reuben: Come by, away to me, that'll do

I've worked on lie down with him but he still wants to come to me before lying down. He's doing well though and it works better when we're playing fetch as he's a bit more in the zone so I can catch the behaviour.

Melon: Come by, away to me, that'll do, lie down. 
She will slow down if I call out wait (I use that rather than stop) but often preempts me and goes into a down as we often practise distance downs.

They'll do the outrun (or outwalk a short way in our case atm) but I tend to use finger pointing and 'back' as we've been practising around the ball. That's something that I need to improve myself on or I'll just end up confusing them!

There is a behaviourist near me who works her dogs so she has been explaining how the dogs are trained with livestock which has been really helpful.

I have to admit that using herding commands through Treibball has been a real learning curve for me too as I haven't trained these before. Good thing it's an innate collie talent!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Pawsitive said:


> Freddie is more impressive than my two!
> 
> Reuben: Come by, away to me, that'll do
> 
> ...


Well I was most impressed by the rapid fire treat catching in the Treiball demo. My titbit delivery & receive system is so clumsy in comparision.

Does Reuben not lie down when you're just out with him? I find throwing things ahead, and "driving" towards them stimulates stalking and eye. Of course if a dog is "Fetch!" trained, then they tend to go belting off after the ball directly. Balls rolling on a hill by themselves are another good one.

Anyway, I see lots of "lie down" WSD style for me to simply capture and then add into games. I will try to upload something that gives a flavour, but I need to get someone helping really as fast moving games, leads to travel-sickness risk from camera shakes heheheh

Using the Andy Nickless DVDs I integrated the approach because I could simply take advantage of exercise time, it's mainly capturing in self rewarding situations, which are set up in systematic training to progress the WSD. Obviously I was looking at whole slew of techniques, old school, standard LCD Rewards Based, Clicker & whatever WSD material I could find, to figure out what suited me & my dog; rather than what was convenient in a class situation.

On the "outrun" thing I observe that a lot and other Collie owners started noticing to. Yesterday I threw a Frisbee way off to send Freddie far from a Lab that was getting checked on choke chain, as it was spazzing watching Freddie bring the Frisbee to me. Unfortunately he outran around them and then pointed towards the Frisbee, complately ignoring them & their dog, following instincts rather than the more direct line evading them I'd counted on :lol:

As I don't do Treiball, and it's mainly thrown things he's catching/pouncing on, or controlling by blocking, which tend to stop moving, it's hard to claiim a proper gathering outrun. If I take him to sheep, I'm sure he'd get it pretty quickly tho.


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Does Reuben not lie down when you're just out with him? I find throwing things ahead, and "driving" towards them stimulates stalking and eye. Of course if a dog is "Fetch!" trained, then they tend to go belting off after the ball directly. Balls rolling on a hill by themselves are another good one.
> 
> On the "outrun" thing I observe that a lot and other Collie owners started noticing to. Yesterday I threw a Frisbee way off to send Freddie far from a Lab that was getting checked on choke chain, as it was spazzing watching Freddie bring the Frisbee to me. Unfortunately he outran around them and then pointed towards the Frisbee, complately ignoring them & their dog, following instincts rather than the more direct line evading them I'd counted on :lol:


Yup, if I raise the ball flinger or stand there for a few minutes before throwing/moving (or if Melon has returned the ball to the flock), he'll either go into a stalk position or a down. Therefore it just means it's my training that needs polishing up as he does it instinctively anyway  I think when he's focussing on me rather than the ball (or other livestock substitute) is when he wants to wiggle closer. Having said that, if I train both of them at the same time, he does learn from Melon and he has done some good distance 'lie downs' at the same time as her (albeit taking his own sweet time to actually hit the deck  ).

Ha I bet the other owner wasn't having as much fun as Freddie was! 

Yes please do, I would love to see and I think some vids would be great for the thread!

Poor Lab - the owner should ditch the collar and invest in a frisbee.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Pawsitive said:


> I think when he's focussing on me rather than the ball (or other livestock substitute) is when he wants to wiggle closer


When I have Freddie giving eye, I find if I move 100% out of balance and go behind him so we're both at 12 and ball at 6, then a "ssSSHSHH" or move close can get him to walk on, or creep.

I got the "sssSHHSHSH" biz from a WSD training book I had bought years ago, as a tip for sticky Strong-eyed Collies.

Now if we drive towards a ball/frisbee, he'll tend to flank, but if I flank and go forwards he nominates himself as the prime herder. So by me moving, or encouraging, I can get him stalking up to the stationary object, he'd usually just happily watch until it "bolts".



Pawsitive said:


> Ha I bet the other owner wasn't having as much fun as Freddie was!


I suspect he was quite frustrated as his dog was reacting at first, then probably had a moan about irresponsible Collie owner with dog off leash *shrug* It's just rather seeing these dogs that have basically no chance, another oldish puppy, was on Flexi lead and lunging to greet, way too excited, with the owner just trying to control his dog round the park and not have it take any notice of other dogs. Expect visit to behaviourist or dumping it on a rescue in what, 6 months? The dog was only doing something natural for a social animal.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Look who's dogs "Pogo" & "Whizzy" has ducks to herd and also been to Andy Nickless's place to work sheep - Richard Curtis - Pogos sheepdog exploits noticed the "Star pupils - 2010 Crufts winners, Richard Curtis, Pogo and Whizzy!" on the site Border Collie Sheepdog Training Courses UK there's a useful summary of common WSD commands - Herding Terms Traditional Words a Shepherd uses at Trials and when gathering sheep as well as DVD I have Andy Nickless's Sheepdog Training DVD for beginners : First Steps in Border Collie Sheepdog Training - From ChAOS to CONTROL!, which I found useful to add value to off leash games.

Here's Whizzy having her first crack YouTube - Border Collie x Poodle Sheepdog Training Cadoodle Herding Sheep with Richard Curtis
Duck herding here in Richard's own channel - YouTube - First attempts at Duck Herding


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Thomas Longton has uploaded some cool vids lately, look at them go! These dogs are amazing!

YouTube - Puppy's first lesson with the sheep - 4 months old "Ringo"
YouTube - "Scarlet" 4 month sheepdog pup, started to work
YouTube - Red Scarlet age 9 months
YouTube - Sheepdog Display with Geese
YouTube - Sheepdog Display with Ducks
YouTube - Sheepdog Display with Sheep


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


RobD-BCactive said:



Thomas Longton has uploaded some cool vids lately, look at them go! These dogs are amazing!

Click to expand...

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RobD-BCactive said:


> The Longtons breed some fabulous collies as well. I know several that compete in trials/agility/obedience.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

OK, so as some of you know, my guy & I had a little outing to WSD training at weekend.

Here he is getting his "eye" in - YouTube - Freddie watches Brassie & Kay in the Ring

For now, I'll just say that, *it's a serious business*, not to be undertaken lightly, it is very, very challenging. Trainee dogs *stress* the sheep, they are terrified and as it is about controlling predatory behaviour there's mouthfulls of wool about the place from gripping. The Ewes in ring actually butt into your knees and get in the way, as you try to move into position to send your dog back & circle the other way. Due to balancing, to start with you can't just stay still, moving just a little aids the dog's outrun, or circling to hold the flock in the desired direction. Most of the class attendees seemed to be Small Holders/famers with small flocks and dogs that they'd not been able to train, or had problems with (like lacking desire to work).

What I will say is, that positive training and solid preparation does pay off. My dog also seems to have benefitted from the experience after enjoying the day, he was great at Agility the next morning, really come on and was absolutely normal on our usual walk. The difference is now, when I send him on a curved run to fetch a Frisbee it's no longer a fun game, but practice.

Sunday, was at Denise McLeod's WSD demo of Connor in action, at Stanley's Barn Farm Open Day on Sunday. It went very well, though the weather was wet, Connor gathered & lifted the sheep under great control and penned them with little trouble. Denise hardly had to move an inch; you can see her dog & her under training in Thomas Longton's YouTube channel.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

More clips now public, including a rescue dog called Milo :

YouTube - Milo's Big Day - 1st Time in the Ring with Sheep
YouTube - Freddie's Big Day - 1st Time in the Ring with Sheep


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

What's with all the stick-banging and waving? I wouldn't let my Ziggy anywhere near that, she'd be terrified. I can see you'd have to block the dog when it's over-excited but there must be a better way....

I'm planning to test Kite with sheep - I've been in touch with Thomas Longton, he lives a few minutes away but I wouldn't be happy doing it like that.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> What's with all the stick-banging and waving? I wouldn't let my Ziggy anywhere near that, she'd be terrified. I can see you'd have to block the dog when it's over-excited but there must be a better way....
> 
> I'm planning to test Kite with sheep - I've been in touch with Thomas Longton, he lives a few minutes away but I wouldn't be happy doing it like that.


First off when you do it, you'll see for real the factor of the Sheep's welfare, you cannot ignore the sheep's right to effective protection. It is definitely serious not to be undertaken lightly; most there had stock & dogs they had problems training or getting interested in working. That day was very much real beginning WSD training for non-puppies, rather than the jaunty recreational run around after the sheep, shown on CM/DW show a few times. This day was very much "business" and not frivilous.

The "stick" is light plastic pipe, most of the dogs did not have a trained "Stop!" command and in the situation where high predatory arousal "red mist" the dog's won't hear or listen to a command like "Sit!". The banging on ground was to attract attention, when the Collie's eye is on the sheep; they are very hard to refocus.

The stick waving is an emphasis, like making a hand movement but more visible. They're also used at distance raised in the air. Remember you have dogs that need to circle round (rather than directly go at the sheep), but haven't learnt commands to do it yet, and click/treating isn't going to be of the slightest interest where you have live sheep to chase.

Waving a hand might look better to you, but would actually not only be less effective, but should there be contact more likely to cause injury. Before going I made sure my dog was not frightened of a stick or flinching by introducing it carefully myself. The clips also show "authoriative firm" shouting being ignored, if you watch them carefully. Louder does not work better.

Handler positioning and body language is required to have the dog back off from an attack. Furthermore despite seeing your dog go for the sheep, you need to be calm and ready to encourage and praise, circling out wider. Nervousness, anxiety and poor positioning is likely to cause the dog to "cut back in" and grip.

As always when interrupting, you need to have the dog right away doing something desired, so sending on way smartly (one of my handling errors was hesitating at one point). Some of time in clips, the gentle "Come bye!" and "Away!" when the dog's were doing well were not audible.

But it's believed that the "gentle voice" praise feedback, liked by the dog, is actually by positive-reinforcement of distance herding behaviours, what stops the lunging in, in long run.

The expectation is for the dog to be in the "predatory state" so generally needs the interruption; with "training" going out the window. The fact is, the dog is attacking the sheep who are terrified, and it cannot be allowed to escalate to a full bite; a grip (nip) takes out chunk of wool.

Untrained or poorly trained Sheepdogs, stress and frighten the sheep; they were blowing, panting and scared!

BTW I talked with someone who's been to both Andy's and Thomas Longton and the dogs are encouraged at first to "take interest" chase the sheep, which inevitibly leads to very high arousal levels. Whether it's necessary to stoke up the dogs to this level, I was told "They all do that; all the top triallists do".

Introducing puppies to the sheep, with a trained dog around, was a much calmer affair, we saw one pup who "got out" be rewarded for his promise by a jaunt in the pen.

The adult dogs were all quite capable of doing real injury to those sheep and swift response was needed to show that was unwanted behaviour, or risk the trapped singleton being savaged.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Points taken. 

A few years ago I took Ziggy for a trial with sheep with someone from the training club who did sheepdog trials. There wasn't a pen, just 5 sheep in a fairly large field, no sticks. As Ziggy had been whacked with a stick in her previous home, I would not have ever had her in a siuation where they were being waved about. Ziggy spent most of the session hiding behind my legs, and it was only with a lot of encouragement and in the company of an experienced dog that she was already friends with, that she would approach the sheep at all. I came away quite pleased that I didn't have to worry about her chasing sheep on the farm we lived on at the time. And I know what dogs can do to sheep, having seen the results on that farm of loose dogs killing and maiming them. 

I'll never forget the sight of a terrified Ziggy belting up the farm track, pursued by 4 fat lambs that had escaped from their field either! It can work both ways.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes it can indeed. The emphasis was very much on setting the dogs up to be confident with the sheep, with a problem that dogs in sheep country are likely to have been "told off" previously, which can deter them.

Knowing my dog, I just don't think it was necessary to stoke him up to chase something; but the trainer has expectation that no training survives entering the pen and the obsession to have the dogs sheep crazy.

However, he did change his mind once he'd tried for himself twice; though it's probably very hard to see novice Shepherd mess things up, he just coached from sidelines and we stopped, when I was losing it.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I love watching sheepdogs and their owners such a good bond and happy dogs. I think it's more popular in America to have dogs that aren't working sheepdogs do herding tests etc and even non-herding breeds do it. I know someone with portugese water dogs with herding titles. I think it's a good idea to let them do it even just a couple of times if they enjoy it. But that drive is also what makes collies so amazing at every other dog sport.

As for spaniels two of the happiest spaniels I have ever seen, springers I think, were doing routine bomb searches before royal family members came here. But that is just redirecting what they would do in the field into something else


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

RobD-BCactive said:


> More clips now public, including a rescue dog called Milo :
> 
> YouTube - Milo's Big Day - 1st Time in the Ring with Sheep
> YouTube - Freddie's Big Day - 1st Time in the Ring with Sheep


Love the video Rob! I'd say that's a pretty good result all things considered. The interest is there, the eye is there, he wants to balance, he wants to do it.
You say in the description box that he becomes quite predatory. It looks to me as though it's more of a case of frustration and slight initial confusion (he hasn't worked before); the sniffing at the beginning (displacement), then the yapping, barking and bouncing. The sheep aren't being hugely predictable for him which makes things harder, plus it's hard for us novice handlers to get our heads around how we position ourselves, to then position the sheep, to set the dog up to succeed and push/flank/ drive/outrun successfully. 
Reminds me very much of my lad on his first time with sheep (lots of confusion/frustration there too).
The barking (shouting ) will go once the sheep become more predictable and the dog more confident and competent with his job. Towards the end he does some lovely bits, flanking and balancing with you. A bit fast and panicky (which can be awkward and unsettling with many sheep) but for a first time it's fantastic stuff 

Good work guys- he's going to be fab


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