# Breeding colour genetics help please!



## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

Hi there
I’m new to this forum and hope someone can help me. It’s a long way off yet but looking to start breeding with my British Shorthair. She is a Blue and doesn’t carry anything else. She is registered active, GCCF and has had previous litters. We would like to produce different colours but the genetics of it all are very baffling. I will keep reading up on it all but in the meantime I’ve come across a beautiful stud who is a cream carrying cinnamon. Does anyone know what colours are likely to come out of putting him with my blue girl please?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I'm not sure how cinnamon would affect things, but you'd get blue-cream tortie girls and blue boys


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm not sure how cinnamon would affect things, but you'd get blue-cream tortie girls and blue boys


Thank you for your reply it's a great help. I'm not sure either about the cinnamon. I'll keep reading and hopefully can get my head around it all.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> Thank you for your reply it's a great help. I'm not sure either about the cinnamon. I'll keep reading and hopefully can get my head around it all.


If your girl has two black genes as you say, cinnamon will not affect any of the first generation of offspring but some of them may carry cinnamon which is recessive. Depending on the stud's other colour gene, subsequent generations may produce different colours.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Bluebinks said:


> Thank you for your reply it's a great help. I'm not sure either about the cinnamon. I'll keep reading and hopefully can get my head around it all.


We don't have colours like cinnamon and fawn in my breed so I've never had to learn them. I'm finding PawPeds courses are helpful for understanding them, although they are covered in the second level so you've to pass the first level to get access to the material.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

QOTN said:


> If your girl has two black genes as you say, cinnamon will not affect any of the first generation of offspring but some of them may carry cinnamon which is recessive. Depending on the stud's other colour gene, subsequent generations may produce different colours.


Ok thank you that does make sense. I think I'm getting my head around it. Just to confuse matters how do you get a cinnamon colour?


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> We don't have colours like cinnamon and fawn in my breed so I've never had to learn them. I'm finding PawPeds courses are helpful for understanding them, although they are covered in the second level so you've to pass the first level to get access to the material.


Thank you for that What breed are your cat(s)?


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## Umm Kulthum (Sep 27, 2018)

Hello Bluebinks,
Females will be Blue cream; any males will prob be sterile
Females can also be blue or cream
Males will prob be blue or cream (cinnamon is recessive)
Females can also be cinnamon 
Males can also be cream


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> Ok thank you that does make sense. I think I'm getting my head around it. Just to confuse matters how do you get a cinnamon colour?


Because cinnamon is recessive it has to be inherited from each parent. This means that you have to mate a cinnamon carrier to another cinnamon carrier or a cinnamon (or fawn which is the dilute of cinnamon.)


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Umm Kulthum said:


> Hello Bluebinks,
> Females will be Blue cream; any males will prob be sterile
> Females can also be blue or cream
> Males will prob be blue or cream (cinnamon is recessive)
> ...


This is wrong, sorry

You wouldn't get female creams from this mix, you need two copies of red gene for a female red. And two copies of the cinnamon gene for any of them to show it


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Bluebinks said:


> Hi there
> I'm new to this forum and hope someone can help me. It's a long way off yet but looking to start breeding with my British Shorthair. She is a Blue and doesn't carry anything else. She is registered active, GCCF and has had previous litters. We would like to produce different colours but the genetics of it all are very baffling. I will keep reading up on it all but in the meantime I've come across a beautiful stud who is a cream carrying cinnamon. Does anyone know what colours are likely to come out of putting him with my blue girl please?


Do you know about blood typing and incompatability ?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Umm Kulthum said:


> Hello Bluebinks,
> Females will be Blue cream; any males will prob be sterile
> *Females can also be blue or cream*
> Males will prob be blue or *cream* (cinnamon is recessive)
> ...


I am afraid all your statements I have made bold are inaccurate. All females from a cream/red boy to a non-red girl will be torties.

You can only get a cream or red boy if you have a cream, red or tortie girl.

There will be no cinnamons in this mating for two reasons. Firstly both cats are dilute and secondly cinnamon has to be inherited from both parents and @Bluebinks has stated her girl is pure blue.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Bluebinks said:


> Thank you for that What breed are your cat(s)?


I have Maine Coons


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Do you know about blood typing and incompatability ?


Yes I know about blood typing. My girl is blood type A so as I understand she can be put with A or B. The stud I'm looking at using is an A so they will be fine together.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I have Maine Coons


I also love Main coons


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

anachronism said:


> This is wrong, sorry
> 
> You wouldn't get female creams from this mix, you need two copies of red gene for a female red. And two copies of the cinnamon gene for any of them to show it


Ok thank you. It does get confusing but I'm slowly getting my head around it. Thank you for your help


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

QOTN said:


> I am afraid all your statements I have made bold are inaccurate. All females from a cream/red boy to a non-red girl will be torties.
> 
> You can only get a cream or red boy if you have a cream, red or tortie girl.
> 
> There will be no cinnamons in this mating for two reasons. Firstly both cats are dilute and secondly cinnamon has to be inherited from both parents and @Bluebinks has stated her girl is pure blue.


Ok I get that thank you so boys would be blue and girls tortie? Just checking I'm reading it right that's all. Someone else on here said this too


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> Ok I get that thank you so boys would be blue and girls tortie? Just checking I'm reading it right that's all. Someone else on here said this too


Yes, the first reply you had was correct for this mating but you said you would want to breed other colours. To do that you will need to breed from one of the offspring after DNA testing.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Yes, the first reply you had was correct for this mating but you said you would want to breed other colours. To do that you will need to breed from one of the offspring after DNA testing.


That is exactly what we plan to do. At the moment I'm concentrating on finding the right male for my girl. This cream carrying cinnamon is the best so far I've found. Most of the studs seem to be Blue or not registered so obviously I'm not going to go there.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> That is exactly what we plan to do. At the moment I'm concentrating on finding the right male for my girl. This cream carrying cinnamon is the best so far I've found. Most of the studs seem to be Blue or not registered so obviously I'm not going to go there.


Is there a specific colour you have in mind that you want? Or to work towards?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Umm Kulthum said:


> Hello Bluebinks,
> Females will be Blue cream; any males will prob be sterile
> Females can also be blue or cream
> Males will prob be blue or cream (cinnamon is recessive)
> ...


Where on earth do you get the idea males will be sterile? Or that a cat with two black genes can produce anything except black & blue, plus whatever the orange gene can lead to?

With a cream stud she will produce blue tortie girls, and blue or cream boys.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> *Where on earth do you get the idea males will be sterile*? Or that a cat with two black genes can produce anything except black & blue, plus whatever the orange gene can lead to? With a cream stud she will produce blue tortie girls, and blue or cream boys.


Oh dear, didn't spot that one! No cream boys though.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I too was intrigued about the sterile comment! @Umm Kulthum please expand.....


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

moggie14 said:


> I too was intrigued about the sterile comment! @Umm Kulthum please expand.....


So was I and yes - please do share your knowledge with us.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

I think what they mean is that any blue cream males born would be sterile but clarification would be helpful


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Tortie males are not always sterile. It depends on their genetic make-up. If they are XXY they are likely to be able to sire kittens. There was a famous Siamese tortie boy, Marilane Harlequin who had many litters before the GCCF decided not to recognise male torties.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

So a blue cream male would be a tortie, not just a blue and cream male? Excuse my ignorance!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Tortie males are not always sterile. It depends on their genetic make-up. If they are XXY they are likely to be able to sire kittens. There was a famous Siamese tortie boy, Marilane Harlequin who had many litters before the GCCF decided not to recognise male torties.


GCCF do recognise them, there's a Maine Coon one that's a GrCh. Having said that, I'm not clear if he titled before GCCF changed their minds.

If they still don't recognise them then yet again, GCCF are behind the times which is very frustrating.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

moggie14 said:


> So a blue cream male would be a tortie, not just a blue and cream male? Excuse my ignorance!


Yes he'd be a tortie


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> GCCF do recognise them, there's a Maine Coon one that's a GrCh. Having said that, I'm not clear if he titled before GCCF changed their minds. If they still don't recognise them then yet again, GCCF are behind the times which is very frustrating.


They have started registering them again but I believe they will still not register any kittens they sire.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> They have started registering them again but I believe they will still not register any kittens they sire.


Interesting, every day's a school day


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

moggie14 said:


> So a blue cream male would be a tortie, not just a blue and cream male? Excuse my ignorance!


The definition of a tortie is a cat with one of the main colours combined with red or, in this case, cream.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Interesting, every day's a school day


The GCCF will now register the offspring of male torties but only on a case by case basis. I don't understand the concern myself.

11. *Breeding from male torties Board*


11.1 The Board had discussed this further, as requested, and advice had been taken from Langford on DNA

testing a tortie male for the purpose of any health checks required by a registration policy. The DNA

in cells from a cheek swab would not necessarily be that passed on to the progeny.

11.2 It was agreed that breeding from a tortie male was acceptable if there was a purpose to it, but the

Board would want to be informed in advance of the mating so that any necessary adjustments

to the computer programming could be prepared for, and consideration could be given on a case

by case basis to any health checks necessary for the breed.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Oh dear, didn't spot that one! No cream boys though.


For some reador was thinking of a blue cream girl not a blue, but of course with a cream boy she could produce cream girls as well as Tortie girls


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> The GCCF will now register the offspring of male torties but only on a case by case basis. I don't understand the concern myself.
> 
> 11. *Breeding from male torties Board*
> 
> ...


Doesn't surprise me


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

anachronism said:


> Is there a specific colour you have in mind that you want? Or to work towards?


The Blue bi colour and the chocolate /cinnamon bi colour. Are you a breeder?


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> Where on earth do you get the idea males will be sterile? Or that a cat with two black genes can produce anything except black & blue, plus whatever the orange gene can lead to?
> 
> With a cream stud she will produce blue tortie girls, and blue or cream boys.


I did wonder about the sterile bit but thought maybe it was a typo error so didn't question it.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

I’m just reading all the posts that have been put on since I last posted. Can someone please tell me if I’m reading this right and that if this mating was to go ahead and blue/cream tortie boys were produced, they can’t be registered with GCCF? I was under the impression that any males would be blue anyway and only females would be Tortie? Sorry for making you repeat yourselves but I’m new to this. Thank you to everyone for your knowledge and help. I’m learning something new every day


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

moggie14 said:


> So a blue cream male would be a tortie, not just a blue and cream male? Excuse my ignorance!


That's what I thought too


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> I'm just reading all the posts that have been put on since I last posted. Can someone please tell me if I'm reading this right and that if this mating was to go ahead and blue/cream tortie boys were produced, they can't be registered with GCCF? I was under the impression that any males would be blue anyway and only females would be Tortie? Sorry for making you repeat yourselves but I'm new to this. Thank you to everyone for your knowledge and help. I'm learning something new every day


Tortie boys are an anomaly and very rare. It is thought they may have two female chromosomes instead of one. You are very unlikely to produce one.They can be registered but as a novice, you would not wish to breed on from a boy so the restrictions on registering their progeny would not worry you.

If you are interested in the red gene I am pasting a post I made on another thread on colour genetics in cat chat

One of the most common colours in the random bred population is ginger which is produced by the red or orange gene.

The *Red* or *Orange* gene which produces ginger cats is unique in cat colours because it is carried on the *female* *chromosome*. A female has two female chromosomes (XX) and a male has only one (XY). It changes the pigment in the basic coat colour but the genes for that basic colour are still remaining and this is very important for understanding the action of the red gene.

If a *male* has *one red gene*, he is red (ginger.)

Because a *female* has two female chromosomes, if she has only *one red gene*, she still has half her genes which are non-red and so they will express the basic colour. This is what produces a tortie.

Therefore a *female* must have *two red genes* to be red (ginger.) This is what gives rise to the myth that all ginger cats are male.

All female offspring of a ginger male will be torties unless they also inherit a red gene from their dam in which case they will be ginger.

All male offspring from the ginger male will be non-red. To get a ginger male, the dam must either be ginger or tortie.

The explanation for this is because a ginger male will always pass his red gene to his daughters because he only has one female chromosome. In the same way he only has one male chromosome which, by the fact it is male can have no red gene, so produces non-red males.

Because of the way the pigment affects the basic colour, the tabby pattern which all cats possess will usually be evident even in a non-agouti cat. This means it is very difficult if not impossible to tell from looking at a ginger cat whether it is a tabby or a self. (A DNA test will identify the agouti gene but probably not worth worrying about unless the cat is required for breeding.)

The *dilute* form of red is *cream*


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> This means it is very difficult if not impossible to tell from looking at a ginger cat whether it is a tabby or a self.


Your post is fab except for this bit, as it can be difficult but not impossible to identify a red solid. You can identify by the lining of the ears, the chin, the eye goggles, the lips, and skin between the nose and mouth.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Tortie boys are an anomaly and very rare. It is thought they may have two female chromosomes instead of one. You are very unlikely to produce one.They can be registered but as a novice, you would not wish to breed on from a boy so the restrictions on registering their progeny would not worry you.
> 
> If you are interested in the red gene I am pasting a post I made on another thread on colour genetics in cat chat
> 
> ...


Thank you all this information is much appreciated and no any males would not be for breeding so like you say I don't need to worry and very rare anyway


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> The Blue bi colour and the chocolate /cinnamon bi colour.


Have you investigated the white spotting gene? If not, it is dominant so you will need to mate to a bicolour to get a bicolour.

Then you have to find chocolate or cinnamon studs (or carriers of those colours,) and make sure your own cat carries one of those genes. ( I am not sure I would have started from a pure blue if I wanted to breed those colours! Still, I had to settle for a blue tortie as my maiden queen when I wanted to breed blues so perhaps you had no choice.)


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Your post is fab except for this bit, as it can be difficult but not impossible to identify a red solid. You can identify by the lining of the ears, the chin, the eye goggles, the lips, and skin between the nose and mouth.


What are the differences?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> Your post is fab except for this bit, as it can be difficult but not impossible to identify a red solid. You can identify by the lining of the ears, the chin, the eye goggles, the lips, and skin between the nose and mouth.


I don't know if there would be subtle differences from breed to breed but this isn't necessarily the case with BSH.

A few years ago the BSH BAC (as part of a seminar item in relation to the breeding/registration of red tabbies/selfs) did a really interesting little exercise where it showed a number of photos of agouti/non agouti reds (of all tabby patterns and all the cats had been DNA tested to show whether genetically tabby or not) and asked a large number of breeders to try to visually identity the selfs from the tabbies. Overall, we failed dismally  Bear in mind many of those who took part had a specific interest in reds and included some long term red BSH breeders.

ETA - something that has just come to mind. A very well known, highly titled red spotted tabby stud was used prolifically in the fairly recent past and many of his red tabby offspring were themselves shown with considerable success. What everyone failed to notice was that he never sired (from particular coloured queens of course) brown or blue tortie tabby kittens. Needless to say he later proved to be a red self.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

QOTN said:


> Have you investigated the white spotting gene? If not, it is dominant so you will need to mate to a bicolour to get a bicolour.
> 
> Then you have to find chocolate or cinnamon studs (or carriers of those colours,) and make sure your own cat carries one of those genes. ( I am not sure I would have started from a pure blue if I wanted to breed those colours! Still, I had to settle for a blue tortie as my maiden queen when I wanted to breed blues so perhaps you had no choice.)


I'm in the process of reading about everything and tbh I've read that much I was getting confused and that's why I thought I'd ask on here. I had a feeling you'd say that about bi colour. It's hard to find a stud that's bi colour that doesn't live a million miles away but I'll keep trying. So from what you've said then if I were to find a bi colour stud then my blue queen and the stud could produce blue bi colour? is it more complicated than that? 
You've a lot of knowledge. I'm glad I came on here. It's a lot clearer information than all the reading I've been doing. Perhaps you could do a book


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> What are the differences?





gskinner123 said:


> I don't know if there would be subtle differences from breed to breed but this isn't necessarily the case with BSH.
> 
> A few years ago the BSH BAC (as part of a seminar item in relation to the breeding/registration of red tabbies/selfs) did a really interesting little exercise where it showed a number of photos of agouti/non agouti reds (of all tabby patterns and all the cats had been DNA tested to show whether genetically tabby or not) and asked a large number of breeders to try to visually identity the selfs from the tabbies. Overall, we failed dismally  Bear in mind many of those who took part had a specific interest in reds and included some long term red BSH breeders.
> 
> ETA - something that has just come to mind. A very well known, highly titled red spotted tabby stud was used prolifically in the fairly recent past and many of his red tabby offspring were themselves shown with considerable success. What everyone failed to notice was that he never sired (from particular coloured queens of course) brown or blue tortie tabby kittens. Needless to say he later proved to be a red self.


Signs of agouti in red cats are as follows:

brick red nose leather surrounded by a dark contour line in black pigmented cats; 
the light coloured edges of the ears; 
the hairs inside the ears are rather pale and unicoloured; 
the lips are dark and the chin is very pale, almost whitish
a further identifying sign is the underside of the tail, it is rather light coloured in agouti cats.
Things to look for when identifying red solid are:

Whitish/pale chin (indication of agouti) or not? 
Whitish phyltrum area (indication of agouti) or not? - Phyltrum is the skin lines going from the middle of the upper lip up to lower base of nose leather
Red coloured edges of the ears

Some of the identifiers for solid can look cream instead of red, so it can give a false indication, which is where the challenge lies. This is the same across all breeds.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> I'm in the process of reading about everything and tbh I've read that much I was getting confused and that's why I thought I'd ask on here. I had a feeling you'd say that about bi colour. It's hard to find a stud that's bi colour that doesn't live a million miles away but I'll keep trying. So from what you've said then if I were to find a bi colour stud then my blue queen and the stud could produce blue bi colour? is it more complicated than that?
> You've a lot of knowledge. I'm glad I came on here. It's a lot clearer information than all the reading I've been doing. Perhaps you could do a book


Yes you could produce blue bicolour from a bicolour stud. If he was homozygous for white spotting gene, all kittens would be bicolour. I have never had anything to do with breeding white but I think I have heard it suggested that homozygous cats may have more white but I don't know if this is just theory or fact. (My only pre-occupation was to avoid the minor white spotting gene if at all possible!)


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Bluebinks said:


> I'm in the process of reading about everything and tbh I've read that much I was getting confused and that's why I thought I'd ask on here. I had a feeling you'd say that about bi colour. It's hard to find a stud that's bi colour that doesn't live a million miles away but I'll keep trying. So from what you've said then if I were to find a bi colour stud then my blue queen and the stud could produce blue bi colour? is it more complicated than that?
> You've a lot of knowledge. I'm glad I came on here. It's a lot clearer information than all the reading I've been doing. Perhaps you could do a book


Yes you could get bicolour blue boys if you mate with a bicolour boys. There are many books available on colours, including The Practical Guide To Cat Breeding by Royal Canin


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

By far the best thing to look for when assessing for agouti is the butterfly. Even on ghosting it is obviously fainter than it would be if the cat is agouti.

Of course if the cat is bicolour, your stuffed!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm aware of the possible identifiers. They are not, however, always present to any great degree in a BSH and particularly so in certain varieties of BSH. Bear in mind we have red series colourpointed in both tabby and self; Van pattern in the same; tabby & white are not (yet) recognised in the BSH. This is why we have a registration policy with a DNA testing requirement for cats from certain matings on the active register.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm aware of the possible identifiers. They are not, however, always present to any great degree in a BSH and particularly so in certain varieties of BSH. Bear in mind we have red series colourpointed in both tabby and self; Van pattern in the same; tabby & white are not (yet) recognised in the BSH. This is why we have a registration policy with a DNA testing requirement for cats from certain matings on the active register.


I don't dispute that at all, I simply said that I disagree it's impossible to tell red solid across all red cats without a gene test.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> I don't dispute that at all, I simply said that I disagree it's impossible to tell red solid across all red cats without a gene test.


I actually said it is *very difficult if not impossible* to tell the difference. I think the subsequent responses have confirmed that.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> I actually said it is *very difficult if not impossible* to tell the difference. I think the subsequent responses have confirmed that.


Ok


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Bluebinks said:


> The Blue bi colour and the chocolate /cinnamon bi colour. Are you a breeder?


No but I know a smidge of genetics  Don't know them all for cats (hamsters and leopard geckos were what I learned on) but know the basics. I would be looking for a blue bicolour male in that case or a chocolate or cinnamon male then you would keep a female and breed them to another chocolate (or lilac)or cinnamon (or fawn) stud


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> I don't dispute that at all, I simply said that I disagree it's impossible to tell red solid across all red cats without a gene test.


Yes, I take your point . I suppose I have a cautious approach to it as with the BSH (which the OP has) you can find yourself in a pickle with red/agouti. You need to be absolutely certain what you're working with unless you want kittens of colours which aren't currently recognised. I wasn't being pedantic...as the BAC rep for the Tabby Cat Club we would always advise breeders to DNA test rather than try to visually identity. Particularly newer breeders.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Rufus15 said:


> I don't dispute that at all, I simply said that I disagree it's impossible to tell red solid across all red cats without a gene test.


Are you claiming this for all breeds?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

My post about ginger cats was originally in cat chat so perhaps not completely relevant here where a DNA test is the obvious solution.

In oriental breeds, the advice has been in order to avoid too many tabby markings in red self cats, breed with ticked based cats but then the risk is a paler red than desired. Obviously classic based reds will have a richer colour but their markings will be correspondingly more pronounced. I have also heard that those breeding red Siamese prefer a chocolate or cinnamon not seal base.

However we have strayed from @Bluebinks original question and I apologise for that.


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

QOTN said:


> My post about ginger cats was originally in cat chat so perhaps not completely relevant here where a DNA test is the obvious solution.
> 
> In oriental breeds, the advice has been in order to avoid too many tabby markings in red self cats, breed with ticked based cats but then the risk is a paler red than desired. Obviously classic based reds will have a richer colour but their markings will be correspondingly more pronounced. I have also heard that those breeding red Siamese prefer a chocolate or cinnamon not seal base.
> 
> However we have strayed from @Bluebinks original question and I apologise for that.


That's ok not to worry I find it all very interesting


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes you could get bicolour blue boys if you mate with a bicolour boys. There are many books available on colours, including The Practical Guide To Cat Breeding by Royal Canin


Thank you ☺ your help is appreciated


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

anachronism said:


> No but I know a smidge of genetics  Don't know them all for cats (hamsters and leopard geckos were what I learned on) but know the basics. I would be looking for a blue bicolour male in that case or a chocolate or cinnamon male then you would keep a female and breed them to another chocolate (or lilac)or cinnamon (or fawn) stud


This is in fact what I originally wanted to do before I came across the cream stud. The trouble is finding a bi colour. Most of the studs without travelling a million miles seem to be blue. Thank you for your help


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> Yes, I take your point . I suppose I have a cautious approach to it as with the BSH (which the OP has) you can find yourself in a pickle with red/agouti. You need to be absolutely certain what you're working with unless you want kittens of colours which aren't currently recognised. I wasn't being pedantic...as the BAC rep for the Tabby Cat Club we would always advise breeders to DNA test rather than try to visually identity. Particularly newer breeders.


I completely see your point of view, and certainly in BSH a gene test is a sensible way forward from what you've said  On the subject of the Tabby Cat Club, I have tried to get to the show for the last 3 years and failed every time! I've heard it's a brilliant show.



Bluebinks said:


> This is in fact what I originally wanted to do before I came across the cream stud. The trouble is finding a bi colour. Most of the studs without travelling a million miles seem to be blue. Thank you for your help


Why don't you have that as a breeding goal for the future - owning your own bicolour boy once you've more experience and are ready to have your own stud?


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## Bluebinks (Sep 17, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I completely see your point of view, and certainly in BSH a gene test is a sensible way forward from what you've said  On the subject of the Tabby Cat Club, I have tried to get to the show for the last 3 years and failed every time! I've heard it's a brilliant show.
> 
> Why don't you have that as a breeding goal for the future - owning your own bicolour boy once you've more experience and are ready to have your own stud?


That is in fact what I've been thinking of doing


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Bluebinks said:


> That is in fact what I've been thinking of doing


Don't rush into a boy though, they're a huge commitment and take careful managing.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@Bluebinks

Out of interest, have you had your blue queen tested to see if she carries cinnamon? I only ask as even if in the 4/5 gen pedigree she only has blues she could still carry the cinnamon gene as it is the least dominant. Black (which dilutes to blue) then chococolate then cinnamon.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Bluebinks said:


> This is in fact what I originally wanted to do before I came across the cream stud. The trouble is finding a bi colour. Most of the studs without travelling a million miles seem to be blue. Thank you for your help


Not sure how far your million miles really is. I took Lola 230 miles each way to stud, though for a first mating a shorter journey would be advisable.

If at all possible visit the stud before taking your cat. I didn't the first time, though I had met the owner and seen the boy. I was lucky, he lived in excellent conditions, but I did once take Eadlin to a stud even further away and didn't leave her as it was absolutely awful. A flat refusal from a stud owner to let you visit first is a very bad sign IMHO, and it is if someone wants to buy a stud and refuses to let one visit first and see how he will live.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

115 miles each way after work on Wednesday as my girl wouldn’t call at a weekend as that would be too convenient.

Being a relative newby to breeding myself, you want a stud owner who would be willing to provide advice. I used my mentors stud for our first mating as it’s advice on silly things like snap tests, clipping claws etc.

I would go for the stud that has the nicest owner and keeps the cats in good conditions that’s not to far to start. This may mean you don’t get the colours your particulars want in your first litter. I had all but one were brown tabbies which is my least favourite colour. I wanted a silver tortie girl so needed to use a red silver but decided to make the process as easy as I could first time. In the end I ended up with a litter of all boys, so no keeper kitten.


I hate leaving my cats at stud, I have a cry on the way home. I have had a video of my girl settling in with the stud, which I find very reassuring.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> <snip>
> I would go for the stud that has the nicest owner and keeps the cats in good conditions that's not to far to start. This may mean you don't get the colours your particulars want in your first litter.
> <snip>


Good to stay near home for the first mating, but remember the very complicated BSH registration policy - check kittens will be at least on the Supplementary register in case something really nice comes along.

I do know a Siamese breeder who sends girls home with a photo of her being mated...


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I once went to collect one of my girls who had been at stud for several days and he said I would have to wait because he was still busy. I must admit I took a pic while I was waiting.


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