# WARNING: new Shock-App: the "Simple Leash"



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

new SHOCK application - 
simple LEASH | Home
i saw this mentioned on another forum, and went to check it out; another trainer said it uses shock, 
BUT THAT IS NOT MENTIONED on the home page, nor in the video; only two phrases,
"by the 3rd dog, he didn't even *look*..." [which is significant] and 3-weeks later, "he never even pulls 
hard-enuf to get the warning whistle", are the indicators that the leash uses positive-Punishment AKA applied-punishment.

watch during the video from 1:53 to 1:58 -
the dog turns his head to the left, and the battery-unit with the receiver is seen as a grey box on the collar, under his chin; 
presumably as in other shock-collars, the electrodes are directly beneath the batteries, going thru the coat to his skin.

a few seconds later, WATCH - when he encounters other dogs, and when approaching the jogger, 
His Tail Drops - most markedly just before he meets the male-jogger, when i think either the woman 
[his handler] or the dog, triggers the 'warning whistle' by tugging on the leash... and his tail drops in anticipation of the predicted zap.

U have to go to "the leash" page to see anything that mentions shock, and even there it's CORRECTION STIMULUS - 
how sanitized and proper:
simple LEASH | The Leash
also on that page, it says Quote, "correction stimulus technology" has been "*available for nearly 20 years*". -
wrong, it's been used on dogs since the 1950s and early-60s, and is approx 50-years old, not a mere youth of 20. 
choke-chains have been around since the late-1800s, but that does not make them safe or pleasant.

IMO
* shock is old-fashioned and blunt-force
* the risk of fallout is considerable
* speed does not justify the risk, as aggression is The Most Common unintended side-effect of using shock, 
and aggro gets dogs dead with remarkable efficiency.

caveat emptor, 
- terry


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Nifty marketing there, brushing over with osme nice fancy word 

Lazy mans tools, wots wrong with a bit of effort, never ceases 2 amaze me folks actually think these work long term, morons  recommended by vets, since when did vets understand trianing methods


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I saw these a few months ago and they look awful to me. I despise shock collars anyway but those leads are awful


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ditsy42 said:


> recommended by vets, since when did vets understand training methods


didja see the vet's promo-blurb on the "leash" page? it's on the upper right in the sidebar - he says HE HAS SEEN HOW EASY IT WAS to walk a dog thru his waiting-room on a shock-leash! :scared: and *whose dog was this* that was walked on a shock-leash thru a roomful of other stressed, ill or injured or anxious, animals and people?!

if the dog is already-anxious in a vet-clinic, the use of shock will not help - in fact, it will make things worse. 
if the dog is in pain, or sick, or scared, or defensive, or aggressive... *how does shock help?* it doesn't, IMO.

if MY vet or any staff-member there, were to put a *shock-collar on my dog, there would be H*** to pay.* 
not only would i have harsh words for the person, but that would not be 'my vet' anymore :incazzato: i'd find another!


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

just disgusting. i dont know what to say - so sad people buy these things, often misguided!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> didja see the vet's promo-blurb on the "leash" page? it's on the upper right in the sidebar - he says HE HAS SEEN HOW EASY IT WAS to walk a dog thru his waiting-room on a shock-leash! :scared: and *whose dog was this* that was walked on a shock-leash thru a roomful of other stressed, ill or injured or anxious, animals and people?!
> 
> if the dog is already-anxious in a vet-clinic, the use of shock will not help - in fact, it will make things worse.
> if the dog is in pain, or sick, or scared, or defensive, or aggressive... *how does shock help?* it doesn't, IMO.
> ...


Actually I'm not shocked ... no pun intended.

A large part of selling aversive training to people is reducing the appearance that the are causing discomfort to the animal. Whether his is Millan's double collar designed to make easier to strangle. Or Pattison's use of the 'Hustle up collar' which is an old fashioned half choke. Or even Kevin Behan who claims a good prong jerk will 'energize' the dog.


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

nice, sanitzed and glossed over - just like Ceaser himself eh!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

has so far, not caught-on as a fancy, which is fine by me. 
it is selling only on-line, so far as i can find, and is not the fad of the month. 
i hope it dies an early death, before many dogs have behavioral damage. 
cheers, 
- t


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

quoted from site "When your dog pulls, he will hear the beep that says, "You're pulling too hard!" If he keeps pulling, he will feel a safe but uncomfortable correction stimulus. Very quickly dogs learn to stop pulling when they hear the beep, and don't receive any further correction stimulus."


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> quoted from site "When your dog pulls, he will hear the beep that says, "You're pulling too hard!"
> If he keeps pulling, he will feel a safe but uncomfortable correction stimulus. Very quickly dogs learn to stop
> pulling when they hear the beep, and don't receive any further correction stimulus."


i'm sorry, stacey :huh: - what is this supposed to signify? 
- terry


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

hahaha bit of blonde moment lol ignore me lol!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> quoted from site "When your dog pulls, he will hear the beep that says, "You're pulling too hard!"
> If he keeps pulling, he will feel a safe but uncomfortable correction stimulus. Very quickly dogs learn
> to stop pulling when they hear the beep, and don't receive any further correction stimulus."


i somehow doubt it was a blonde-moment. (shrug) but it doesn't matter - i'll discuss it anyway.

this statement completely ignores the fact that *leashes have two ends - * it is not only the dog 
who can pull on the leash, and cause a shock; the person can do precisely that, if the dog does anything 
that the handler does not like - just zap'em.

it also ignores the fact that the *shock accumulates associations:* what things or persons "cause" the pain? 
that's how the dog perceives it - they are not going about, beating their breasts and saying bitterly, 
_"it's all My Fault, i caused myself this pain..."_ - dogs are not Jewish or Catholic, guilt is not a dog thing.
dogs see the shock as, "THAT does it" --- the other dog, the bicyclist, the jogger, the wildlife, the car... 
that thing appears, and THEN i get zapped.

the intensity of the shock or the duration is really immaterial - the CONNECTION that the dog forges 
is what makes the problem, and fallout emerges when the dog reveals what *they blame* for the shock. 
if the dog is being punished for pulling to greet other dogs - a very social, good, friendly impulse - that will change.
the dog's social impulses will be blunted first, then perverted - and that dog will begin to actively avoid other dogs, 
and very possibly when off-leash if another dog comes near them, snap, bark, growl or fight, to send the dog away.

now we have a formerly-sociable, dog-friendly dog who has become dog-reactive or dog-aggro - 
and precisely the same thing can happen with people, from joggers to UPS delivery-drivers; if the dog has 
been punished with shock, and ASSOCIATES shock with this setting, stimulus or person, they will react. 
that's the problem.

BTW if U did not read the article, that *safe but uncomfortable stimulus*, AKA shock, *is adjustable intensity - * 
it can be turned-up to make the dog vocalize or freak-out and try to flee or sh*t themselves on the spot. 
how intense the shock, how long it lasts, and how *sensitive* the leash is to pulling, can all be changed. 
so... turn-up the shock, increase the sensitivity, and the leash will punish the dog for ounces of pressure 
on the leash, with an intense zap. :crazy: this is where the inherent nastiness of this tool becomes obvious.

pretending a shock-collar with a pull-cord, similar to a pull-switch on a table lamp, is NOT a pain-causing device, 
is extremely disingenuous IMO and moreover highly-questionable as an ethical endeavor - again IMO. 
Ur attitude and perception may vary - this is mine.  
cheers, and happy training, 
- terry


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

dont like the whole thing at all and yes it was a blonde moment i didnt read ur post properly


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> dont like the whole thing at all and yes it was a blonde moment i didnt read ur post properly


ah! sorry  i sincerely apologize - i thought U were teasing, i am truly sorry, tone of voice is so hard to convey. 
i am glad i talked about that misleading [IMO] promotional copy, anyhow.

please forgive me for any hurt feelings, as that was definitely not my intention.
all my best, 
- terry


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Maybe some vets who advocate these as trianing devices should wear them, and everytime they over charge us or bleat on about diet etc, we can zap them, now wouldn't that b fun, I could think of a few vets i've visited in my time who i'd cheerfully strap 2 one of these, an it wouldn't b round their neck either lol :thumbup:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

When all the latest opinion from top behaviourists is pointing toward positive training, I am amazed that anyone is still inventing things to hurt our dogs and call it training. Obviously the creature who invented this thing has only one interest: money making. 

Were it not too long ago, I would sincerely believe that all these gadgets were being invented by ex-nazis. Obviously, the mindset is still about even today.

The very idea of putting anything like this anywhere near my babies makes me shudder. I don't care if they get over excited and prove how much stronger than me they are, never in a million years would I resort to such an evil device.

Thank you, Terry, for bringing it to everyone's attention.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I feel sorry that people feel so helpless to resort to using something like this on their lovely dog.

Someone who I work with once said to me "If I can control my horse with a head collar, you *can *control your dog with one too!"
Made me stop and think what a wuss I was! 

I was told by a "trainer" that Flynn needed "putting in his place" and her dog would do that!  For one Mals rarely back down and two he could end up having real problems with dogs forever if he got in a fight. Was told he'd have to be muzzled too and this is a website which promotes training your dog properly. 

I love my dogs too much to see them suffer and have spent the last two years trying so hard with Flynn, I think we've cracked it now, as long as I stay calm. Am going on a nice Mally walk next week end with forum members who have lots of experience in the breed and non reactive dogs. They know what i'm like with Flynn and can teach *me* how to behave around him.


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## Tierra Bonaldi (Dec 8, 2010)

I believe I might be the person in the video you are referring to. I can definitely understand your stance on shock technology. I myself am a strong advocate of positive reinforcement and obedience training. It is a tragedy how many pets end up in shelters because their owners did not properly train them and blame their obedience issues on the pet. I am a marketer by trade and my biggest campaign is promoting the joys and benefits of pet ownership.
I want to be very up front that I am also paid to advise pet product manufacturers on marketing strategy and among many others I do advise the makers of the simpleLEASH. But, before I agreed to advise them, I tried out the collar myself. I do not take on clients whose products I dont believe in. I have a 100-pound English Labrador Retriever Dolce who despite being a wonderful dog, pulls incessantly on his leash when he sees other dogs. Given that I only weigh 115 lbs and he is a lot stronger than me, he often pulls me to the ground. Once while crossing a street! When he was a puppy, I did everything you are taught to do. I socialized him. (He still goes to the office with me everyday) I put him in a 6-week boarded obedience program specializing in Labs. I followed all the advice this very experienced trainer gave me. I used positive reinforcement for sit, stay, come, hi-five etc. He was trained on a pinch collar for walking. I run with him anywhere between 9-17 miles a week and for each three to five mile run he would consistently pull, choking himself and really choke himself when a dog would approach. That, I know was at the very least uncomfortable for him, if not painful and annoying. 
So I decided to try the simpleLEASH. I was amazed and in my 8 years of working in the pet industry, it takes a lot for a product to impress me. Dolce only received one shock by pulling too hard on the leash when the first dog approached. When the second dog approached, he looked but did not pull hard enough to get a shock. When we passed the third dog he never even turned his head.
Since then, months ago, he has maybe only pulled hard enough to receive one additional shock. That I believe makes our runs much more comfortable for him and I know much more manageable for me! Ive also been able to take him to outdoor pet-friendly events that I would NEVER have been able to before this leash. He now gets to spend hours with me at farmers markets and festivals that I would have left him home prior with endless compliments on how well behaved his is!
The way the leash works is if the dog pulls more than 5 pounds on the leash he receives a warning beep. If he doesnt stop pulling, he gets a small shock. Youre right, the company calls it a correction stimulus. Just like traditional remote control and bark shock collars and electric fence companies do. And, we have been discussing and researching this at great length. It sounds like you find a correction deceptive. Other companies compare the shock to an electricity static shock. Do you think we should just say shock in their marketing materials? We want to be forthcoming. The level of the shock can be adjusted depending on the size of the dog, thickness of the fur, pain tolerance, previous training and intelligence. The prongs can also be adjusted for the size of the dog and even the amount of pressure on the leash can be adjusted. Dogs are smart (some breeds of course more than others) but they learn quickly. 
If you look at the history of dogs, they are and always have been pack animals. And, a clear order exists in a pack and the way Alpha is established is by growling, snarling, nipping, biting and in some cases full fights. That is the way dogs have always learned who is Alpha. In order to have an obedient and well-behaved dog, it needs to know that its person is Alpha. So while I believe strongly in positive reinforcement and obedience training, I also understand that a nip or even perhaps a shock once or twice quickly established Alpha and makes life better for the whole pack, or in our case, the whole family.
As I mentioned earlier in this reply, a lot of great pets are surrendered for needless reasons. I sit on the board of a no-kill shelter, I foster kittens, I have two dogs and two cats. I am a pet lover through and through. We are actually working with a shelter on a test project to see if we can get otherwise unadoptable pets given a second chance at life simply because they can now walk on a leash.
I recognize that this post will most likely not change your opinion on shock technology as that belief can be held almost as strongly as religious or political views. But, I think its important for people to be able to hear from a peer with a different point of view about this particular leash. That is the beauty of social media. Peer to peer reviews. And, I welcome your input on how this product might be improved or better marketed. I wish you and your family a happy holiday and dog-walking season!
Tierra


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I believe I might be the person in the video you are referring to. I can definitely understand your stance
> on shock technology. *I myself am a strong advocate of positive reinforcement and obedience training.*
> It is a tragedy how many pets end up in shelters because their owners did not properly train them and blame their obedience issues on the pet.


if U're such a gung-ho supporter of pos-R and training, this promo and Ur decision to use shock on Ur dog rates a *fail.*


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I am a marketer by trade and *my biggest campaign is promoting the joys* and benefits* of pet ownership*.


the "joys" of pet-ownership don't need to be "promoted" - pet-owners talk about them, books are written, articles 
are in magazines, on-line, and in newspapers... it's in films, it's on TV in fiction and factual programs - nobody needs 
to *sell* the "joys of pets". likewise, the *benefits* don't need a sales-campaign, there are articles and 
research studies galore - anybody who is curious can Google it.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I want to be very up front that *I am also paid to advise pet product manufacturers on marketing strategy and among many others I do advise the makers of the simpleLEASH.*


congratulations - whoopee. :thumbdown: 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> But, before I agreed to advise them, *I tried out the [shock]collar myself*. I do not take on clients whose products
> I don't believe in.


this is supposed to impress us with Ur highly-ethical stance? try again. 
this same person claims they are deeply devoted to pos-R tools and methods, and believes in TRAINING. 
U cannot have it both ways; either U actually use pos-R techniques, or U don't - and in this instance, _*U don't.*_ 
since this is likely to be the only time i see U handle Ur dog, i would have to say that U are apparently not a pos-R 
owner or handler, but use an aversive for a fairly simple behavior to manage - notice i said *manage,* as in prevent.
*training a loose-leash walk* with pos-R takes more time - management is as simple as a *headcollar*, 
which requires 5 to 10-days of habituation, or a *front-clip harness*, which requires *zero habituation*. 
instead, U chose to use *shock - * and were paid to do so, and we are supposed to admire U for this? 
:huh: i don't think so... 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I have a 100-pound English Labrador Retriever Dolce who despite being a wonderful dog, *pulls* incessantly on his leash
> *when he sees other dogs*. Given that I only weigh 115 lbs and he is a lot stronger than me, he often pulls me
> to the ground. Once while crossing a street!


break out the violins, should we?  i taught a 9-YO boy to handle his 9-MO 150# Great Dane safely, without 
a shock-collar, without jerks, without punishment, without the kid getting dragged, without anyone *in pain.* 
we used a headcollar; HE taught the dog to put it on as homework in one week, all the dogs wore their headcollars 
in the 2nd-class - there were 12 children, each with a dog, none of whom had trained a dog before; if kids can do this, 
why not an adult?


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> When he was a puppy, I did everything you are taught to do. I socialized him. (He still goes to the office with me everyday)
> I put him in a *6-week boarded obedience program specializing in Labs*.


who said *board and train* is among the things U are to do?!


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I followed all the advice this very experienced trainer gave me. I used positive reinforcement for sit, stay, come, hi-five etc.
> He was *trained on a pinch collar for walking*.


why is it he can learn *sit*, *stay*, and other things with pos-R, but needs *a prong collar for training to walk?* the trainer forgot how to teach that with pos-R? or never knew how, more likely?


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I run with him anywhere between 9-17 miles a week and *for each three to five mile run he would consistently pull*,
> choking himself and *really* choke himself *when a dog would approach*. That, I know was at the very least uncomfortable for him, if not painful and annoying.


U have a defined trigger - B-Mod of such problems is remarkably simple.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> So *I decided to try* the simpleLEASH.


excuse me - no; *U were hired to promote a shock-collar product, which U say U then used on Ur dog, 
despite the massive struggle this must have been, what with Ur deep devotion to the ethics and methods of pos-R, 
and all.  it must have been a titanic battle.* 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I was *amazed* and in my *8 years* of working in the pet industry, it *takes a lot* for a product to impress me.


this is a sales-pitch - not IMO a statement of "this was my experience". 
just what does it take *a lot* of, to impress U? ca$h? goods in kind? a slice of profits? commissions?...


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Dolce only received one shock by pulling too hard on the leash when the first dog approached. When the second dog approached, *he looked but did not pull hard enough to get a shock*. When we passed *the third dog he never even turned his head.*


that indicates, right there, how potent the shock was - IOW his perception of the severity of the aversive. 
*after 2 experiences*, 1 which U claim shocked him, the 2nd most-likely with the warning beep, and he *avoided 
looking at the 3rd dog - * didn't that strike U as odd in any way? a bit worrying? evidently not. 
allow me to explain: 
*severe aversives* can teach avoidance with one-time learning; the problem is, such severe aversives also 
vastly magnify the odds of serious fallout - which in the case of shock, most-often is *aggression*, and aggro 
has been known to develop as much as *two years* after the use of shock has ceased; that's 2-years 
after it stops, not 2-years after it began to be used.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Since then, months ago, he has maybe only pulled hard enough to receive one additional shock. *That I believe makes our runs much more comfortable for him and I know much more manageable for me! I've also been able to take him to outdoor pet-friendly events that I would NEVER have been able to before this leash. He now gets to spend hours with me at farmers markets and festivals that I would have left him home prior with endless compliments on how well behaved his is! *


isn't that just WONDERFUL? :001_tt1: i am going to throw out all my useless old pos-R training tools, 
my clicker, my silly 6-foot leather leash, my 30-ft long-line, the toys, the tuggies, the bumper and the ball, 
the Kong and the floating fetch-toys, my treats, that stoopid fanny-pack i carry the dog's water-bottle in... 
*who needs it?! i can just zap the dog, and everything is perfect!* :thumbup: 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> The way the leash works is if the dog pulls more than 5-pounds on the leash he receives a warning beep. If he doesn't
> stop pulling, he gets a small shock. You're right, *the company calls it a correction stimulus*.


gee, thanks for patronizing me so elegantly. :blink: 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Just like *traditional remote* control and [*anti][bark shock* collars and *electric [shock] fence* companies do.


actually, back when they were introduced, they called it SHOCK - bluntly. 
that was back in the 1950s [pro trainers of gundogs] and 1960s [ordinary folks with lotsa money - they COST].
nowadays the idea s to deny there IS a shock, or indeed any pain at all - it's a tickle, a tap, a touch, ANYthing but a shock.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> And, we have been discussing and researching this at great length. *It sounds like you find [the term] "correction" deceptive. *


got it in one! :thumbup: congratulations.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Other companies compare the shock to a... *static shock*.
> Do you think we should just say 'shock' in their marketing materials?


yes, i do - accuracy instead of spin would be a delightful change of pace. 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> We want to be *forthcoming*.


:lol: good one! :thumbup: Ha! if that were true, the word SHOCK would appear on page one of the marketing 
site, instead of the word *correction* being tucked-away like a dirty secret - that is not "forthcoming". 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> The level of the shock can be adjusted depending on the *size* of the dog, thickness of the *fur*, pain *tolerance*, previous
> *training* and *intelligence*.


oh, what a good idea! dogs who are not bright can be shocked HARDER - that should help them learn! :thumbup: NOT :scared: 
BTW the * size of the dog* has sod-all to do with the intensity of shock needed - the SKIN affected is the area 
between the prongs, which does not vary from dog to dog. :thumbdown: the THICKNESS of the fur is accommodated 
*not* by intensifying the shock, but by using longer probes, to reach the skin.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> The *prongs* can also be adjusted for the *size of the dog* and even the amount of pressure on the leash
> [which will trigger the shock] can be adjusted. Dogs are smart (some breeds of course more than others) but they learn quickly.


isn't that amazing! but with all Ur experience of pos-R methods and heartfelt devotion to training, U utterly failed 
to teach Ur Labrador to walk without dragging U off Ur feet, my goodness; and yet other people teach Labs 
to guide the blind, or as support-dogs for Parkinson's sufferers who have poor balance - WITHOUT shocking them. 
U must have just got a defective dog...  


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> If you look at the history of *dog*s, they *are and always have been pack animals*. And, *a clear order exists in a pack* and the way *Alpha is established is by growling, snarling, nipping, biting and in some cases full fights. That is the way dogs have always learned who is Alpha.*


this is a complete crock; the research it was based on was done with *captive wolves*, living in groups 
which were ragtag assemblies of wolves from all over hither and yon, rather than an extended family - which is what 
*wild wolf-packs* are - they are mom, dad, some older siblings, maybe an auntie or uncle, and the kids..

* domestic-dogs don't form packs - even when they are feral 
* street-dogs gather for resources - a bitch in heat, a garbage-dump, a trashcan; they do not perform 
group activities which are co-ordinated, like *hunt large game and share the carcass after a kill.* 
* dogs don't strive for status - they argue over *resources*, not who salutes whom! 
hierarchy and status matter enormously to HUMANS - not dogs.

how many references would U like? 10? 20? 40? no problem; there are studies, books, articles, videos, 
peer-reviewed journal articles from various researchers all over the world - it's no problem, really. 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> In order *to have an obedient and well-behaved dog*, [s/he] needs to know that [their] person is *Alpha*.


to be blunt and forthcoming? *pure unmitigated bull.* i have helped disabled handlers train their dogs; 
these folks cannot FORCE their dogs to do anything, the dog has to WANT to do it, and do it RIGHT every time. 
and isn't that amazing - we can teach the dog to do their job gladly, accurately and enthusiastically - 
without shock-collars, prongs, chokes, jerks, hanging, pokes, confrontation, arguments, threats, pain... 
no bad things happen; the dog does what we want, and is rewarded; simple.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> So while *I believe strongly in positive reinforcement and obedience training*...


:lol: :thumbup: yer killin me... :lol:  that's a good one! :thumbup: pull the other leg... :lol:


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...I also understand that *a nip or even perhaps a shock once or twice quickly* established [edit: *establishes*]
> *Alpha and makes life better for the whole pack*, or in our case, the whole *family*.


see above - un-necessary, un-true, and ridiculous.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> As I mentioned earlier... a lot of great pets are surrendered for needless reasons. I sit on the board of a no-kill shelter,
> I foster kittens, I have two dogs and two cats. I am a pet lover through and through. *We are actually working with
> ...


don't tell me - U will use SHOCK-collars to teach them to walk on a leash - right? *even tho U are so devoted 
to pos-R and training, rather than punishing, U are going to punish to make them behave, instead of teach 
them HOW to behave.* :crazy: meanwhile, they are living in an extremely stressful situation. 
do i think this is _*good?*_ absolutely not - in fact, IMO there is a conflict of interest here, as U stand 
to make money from the deal, by selling the shock-collars to the shelters. 
even if they were DONATED - i'd say it was a conflict of interest, as U are attempting to get testimonials 
for future sales of product, to adopters from the shelters, to local residents, and so on. IMO this is highly-unethical. 
U have connections to the manufacturer, and should not be promoting the product to the shelter; in fact, 
i do not think U should sit on the board of any shelter, so long as U are involved in the pet-products industry.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I recognize that *this post will most likely not change your opinion on shock [collars]* as that belief can be held
> almost as strongly as religious or political views.


excuse me - this is not 'religion' or 'opinion' - the use of shock is associated with serious, long-term, unpredictable 
side-effects, and we know this because of the research that has been done, and in my case, because of the number 
of dogs that i have had as B-mod clients who needed retraining to recover from the bad experience.


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> But, I think it's important for people to be able to *hear from a peer with a different point of view* about this particular
> [shock collar] leash. That is the beauty of social media. Peer to peer reviews.


U are not my peer - i am a trainer; U are a pet-owner who sells pet products to the general public. 
U market - i teach. i don't have a vested interest in the shock-leash; U do.

*peer to peer reviews* are buyers telling buyers what their experiences are - *not hired sales-staff* promoting the item. 
U are not a buyer or consumer - U are a sales-rep; ergo, this is not "peer to peer", it's advertising. 


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> And, I welcome your input on *how this product might be improved* or better marketed.


ditch the shock-probes and the batteries - market it with ONLY the beep-function for pulling. :thumbup: 
:001_cool: SEND ME THE FIRST ONE.

cheers, 
- terry


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

TIERRA BONALDI: I am the owner of two 168 lbs newfoundlands and I am only 120 lbs. I do not need any sort of shock collar to hold these dogs, simply a headcollar, used properly, wait command if necessary when another dog attracts.

People who say: Oh, he only needed one shock, make me angry. One shock is one too many. And why the hell was he trained on a pinch collar? By that I assume you mean a prong collar? Again, lazy and ignorant training.

If I can stop my newfoundland giant breed dogs (both of them at the same time) with just headcollars, so can you stop yours.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh, and by the way - you cannot send a dog away to be trained like a defective motor car! You need to be trained to train the dog. This "highly experienced trainer" you used seemed able to teach a powerful dog to sit, stay, high five, and all simple stuff, but totally unable to teach him to walk on a leash! Isn't he great?

You are from the USA so may not realise that here in Britain, any kind of shock collars have been banned in Wales and, hopefully, are about to be banned in England. When a government gets involved, that should tell you what experts and researchers and behaviourists really know about these things.

You will never, ever be your dog's pack leader. Why? Because you are not a dog. Dogs need leadership, yes, they do not need pain to establish that leadership. You will find, eventually, that your dog cannot be trusted at all around other dogs because he will associate shock with their presence and will be afraid of them, and therefore aggressive toward them.

Dogs in shelters have enough emotional damage to cope with and there you are, very proud of bringing more damage down on them. A top UK trainer, Victoria Stillwell, managed to sort out a no kill shelter and bring all their dogs to excellent behaviour without one single aversive method. Why can she do that, but you cannot? Because she knows what she is doing and does not have a product to sell.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

That was hillarious....

1) You claim that you are very into positive reinforcement - yet you rely on electric shocks and prong collars?

2) You admit that problems arise from dogs not being trained properly - yet you a) sent your dog away to be trained by strangers, and b) failed to use the most basic rule of teaching loose leash walking which is to STOP when the dog pulls!

3) Your whole paragraph on dominance is total nonsense. Dogs are not wolves. Neither dogs nor wolves actually follow the original dominance theory - which incidentally has not only been disproved for decades, but even the original guy who came u with it has since admitted it is wrong. And in wolf packs they do NOT use aggression to keep eachother in line - that would be counterproductive, as aggression risks injury - which weakens the pack, makes hunting less effective, etc.....

I won't bother saying else just now - I think Terry has pretty much covered everything!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

darn - i guess she was just toying with us. ~sigh...~

[wanders off disconsolately, looking for a dog to harass with my traumatizing clicker, useless tug-toy, and fattening treats.]


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Don't be despondent, Terry. You have successfully chased her away and as with all the other "experts", they can find no logical argument so just go preach to someone less knowledgeable.

Quick fix merchants will never be told. You stick to your traumatising clicker, shame you can't use it on her :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> You stick to your traumatising clicker, shame you can't use it on her :lol:


oooh, NewfMum, U just gave me a WICKED idea - :thumbup: i am going to become a _*Super-Hero*_ 
and dish-out trauma to harsh handlers and punitive trainers, everywhere! :thumbup1: brilliant!... 
lemme see, i need an infrasonic clicker that will freeze humans if i point it at them, by immobilizing their resonance 
thru a feedback loop... _check,_ a nifty uniform with tights and a mask and boots... _check,_ and a name... 
it's gotta be memorable, distinctive, and speak to my ethics and methods.

i am now accepting suggestions for a name - a female super-hero to defend dogs, cats, 
horses, and other non-humans from coercion, fright, pain or threats during training, by swooping in 
to CLICK the evil-doer and freeze them on the spot, then remove the painful tool and substitute 
a pain-free alternative, or give the heartless handler a lesson in how to teach - not 'punish' - 
to achieve their training goals. 
please enter Ur suggestions here - and please be child-friendly, thanks for being mindful of the kiddies.  

here is a simple demonstration of my infrasonic bioresonance freeze-tag: 
*|||||[[[[[ Click! ]]]]]|||||... *


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## John Platt (Feb 3, 2011)

To Terry, Nicky, Ditsy, Nelly, Corinthian, JJPhoenix, Stacey, NewfieMum, MalMum, Tierra, Colette, et al:

Hi, my name is John Platt. I have been a life long vegan for reasons of conscience. I abhor cruelty of any form to any of our fellow visitors to this planet.

I want to suggest that if you embrace the rights and want to further the welfare of those who wear feathers, fur, or scales, that you amend the approach you take in some of your comments. I think there might be more effective ways you could appeal to peoples' feelings.

Thanks to you and all the +P community for what you are doing for the animal community.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

John Platt said:


> To Terry, Nicky, Ditsy, Nelly, Corinthian, JJPhoenix, Stacey, NewfieMum, MalMum, Tierra, Colette, et al:
> 
> Hi, my name is John Platt. I have been a life long vegan for reasons of conscience. I abhor cruelty of any form to any of our fellow visitors to this planet.
> 
> *I want to suggest that if you embrace the rights and want to further the welfare of those who wear feathers, fur, or scales, that you amend the approach you take in some of your comments. I think there might be more effective ways you could appeal to peoples' feelings.*Thanks to you and all the +P community for what you are doing for the animal community.


Sorry, not quite sure what you mean there. Could you perhaps clarify? As far as I can tell myself and all the people you have named are in support of your cause, so what comments would you like amended?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

What I dont get is that she was using that prong collar yet the dog stilled pulled, so why use it?

to be honest I dont even think the dog was pulling he was just a excited happy dog looking at other things.

Why dont people just teach their dogs not to pull instead of buying all these quick fix things?

I taught my dog not to pull and he didnt pull, just used a normal everyday lead! 

**


Tierra Bonaldi said:


> I want to be very up front that *I am also paid to advise pet product*
> 
> I run with him anywhere between 9-17 miles a week and for each three to five mile run he would consistently *pull, choking himself *and really choke himself when a dog would approach. That, I know was at the very least uncomfortable for him, if not painful and annoying.
> 
> So I decided to try the simpleLEASH. I was amazed and in my 8 years of working in the pet industry, it takes a lot for a product to impress me. Dolce only received one shock by pulling too hard on the leash when the first dog approached. When the second dog approached, he looked but did not *pull hard enough to get a shock. When we passed the third dog he never even turned his head.*


1. Well thats a shock lol!

2. of course his choking, your using a chock collar 

3. well the shock he recieves he now associates with the other dogs, so his probably now scared, I wonder if this will change him if he is allowed of lead now  He probably thinks dogs = pain/shock, poor thing.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> What I dont get is that she was using that prong collar yet the dog stilled pulled, so why use it?
> 
> to be honest I dont even think the dog was pulling he was just a excited happy dog looking at other things.
> 
> ...


Even if you can't teach a dog not to pull, or you have one like mine who is a dream till he sees another dog, there are much better aids than a prong collar or electric lead thingy.

Ferdie wears a dogmatic, doesn't hurt him and keeps me in control. Lots of other aids about as well.

She said her dog was sent away to be trained by a very experienced trainer, but he couldn't teach a dog to walk without a bloody prong collar - how wonderful was he?

Just to add, this is yet another very old thread being dredged up. Nothing against it, don't get me wrong, but it has happened a lot lately and I smell fishes :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> As far as I can tell myself and all the people you have named are in support of your cause,
> so what comments would you like amended?


:nonod: he didn't like my my infrasonic bioresonance freeze-tag.  even tho it's only "to defend dogs, cats, horses, 
and other non-humans from coercion, fright, pain or threats during training, by swooping in 
to CLICK the evil-doer and freeze them on the spot, then remove the painful tool and substitute 
a pain-free alternative, or give the heartless handler a lesson in how to teach - not 'punish' - 
to achieve their training goals."

i thought that was very safe and humane... back to the drawing-board!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> :nonod: he didn't like my my infrasonic bioresonance freeze-tag.  even tho it's only "to defend dogs, cats, horses,
> and other non-humans from coercion, fright, pain or threats during training, by swooping in
> to CLICK the evil-doer and freeze them on the spot, then remove the painful tool and substitute
> a pain-free alternative, or give the heartless handler a lesson in how to teach - not 'punish' -
> ...


Oh, I see. So humans need protecting from you in your new super hero guise? Have you manage to invent one yet, though? There are lots of people I would like to quick freeze


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> There are lots of people I would like to quick freeze


ah, but newf-Mum, U aren't a super-hero! :lol:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> ah, but newf-Mum, U aren't a super-hero! :lol:


Tell that to my grandchildren when they want their computer fixed:lol: Or are you trying to tell me I won't look good in tights?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Just to add, this is yet another very old thread being dredged up.
> Nothing against it, don't get me wrong, but it has happened a lot lately and I smell fishes :lol:


um-hum - if only they were Alaskan wild-salmon, sustainably harvested :001_tt1: 
sadly, they are pratts.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Tell that to my grandchildren when they want their computer fixed :lol:


i bow to Ur greater skills, sensei - i cannot fix computers! :scared: 


newfiesmum said:


> Or are you trying to tell me I won't look good in tights?


i would never venture such a personal judgment - particularly as modesty forbids it. :ihih:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

*Brief interuption" I don't know what Newfiesmum looks like to comment... but the first image that popped into my head was a NEWFIE in tights! :eek6: Now that would be a bizarre superhero!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> ...the first image that popped into my head was a NEWFIE in tights! :eek6: Now that would be a bizarre superhero!!


i like it! :lol: tights and cape, and a big brave *bronze* Newfie, soaring across the sky...


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i am now accepting suggestions for a name - a female super-hero to defend dogs, cats,
> horses, and other non-humans from coercion, fright, pain or threats during training, by swooping in
> to CLICK the evil-doer and freeze them on the spot, then remove the painful tool and substitute
> a pain-free alternative, or give the heartless handler a lesson in how to teach - not 'punish' -
> ...


I like 'Clickerhands', but you need a catchy word in front of it.

I don't know if I can articulate this well, but I feel that once you allow yourself to feel okay about causing your pet pain then you start to dissociate yourself from your natural instincts in relation to your human connection and relationship with your pet. You start to view them more as an animal who needs to be controlled instead of a loved member of your family that has his/her place with you as their beloved master.

Being a mother to me it is also similar to those that follow that Ezzo Babywise blanket training crap for babies - like when a mother allows her baby to cry it out till he throws up in the crib and then runs to their 'puter and Ezzo/mother support site to post "What do I do now?' rather than follow her instinct to go pick her child up and comfort him/her.

If you start ignoring your instincts to care and train your dog to nurture good behaviour and begin believing that just a little pain is okay and you're just doing it for the good of the pet and to get a quick resolution then you are closing off a part of your humanity. And once you open that door to causing a small pain, causing a bigger pain becomes easier if you deem it necessary. Does that make any sense? There has to be trust between a dog and owner, they rely on you for everything. As LFL said they're not going to blame YOU for the pain they feel, how can they when you are their beloved owner that provides all good things? They will instead focus on what they were doing when the pain came and blame that leading to possible dire consequences.

Friends of ours, acquaintances really, put a bark collar on their dog as they were getting complaints from their neighbours. I remember them laughing saying that their dog would make a very low 'rrrr-rrr-rrr' testing out how loud he could get. Being the polite Canadian that I am I didn't say anything (now sorry I didn't), but it made me feel very uneasy inside and sorry for the dog. As a human being how can I accept causing an animal unnecessary pain? There are other, better ways, the difference is they take more time and effort.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

John Platt said:


> Thanks to you and all the +P community for what you are doing for the animal community.


BTW NewfsMum - do ya think John realizes he made a mistake in terminology? 
*+P* is 'positive *punishment*' - reward-based shorthand is *+R* for 'reinforcement'.  oops...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> BTW NewfsMum - do ya think John realizes he made a mistake in terminology?
> *+P* is 'positive *punishment*' - reward-based shorthand is *+R* for 'reinforcement'.  oops...


Doubt it. I still don't know what he was talking about though.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Jonesy - I wholeheartedly agree with you!

I also think that "a little pain" or "discomfort" is the start of a slippery slope. When that relatively mild punishment stops working - what do you next? Increase the intensity of course! Or what if you are particularly angry at the time? You lose your self cotrol and increase the intensity!

I have known a few people who decided when training pups that a light tap on the nose with just one finger was reasonable punishment. In pretty much every case, as the dog got older, the punishment got heavier. A light, one-finger tap became a raised-hand, full-force, slap across the dogs muzzle. Funnily enough - it was usually the same behaviours that were being punished - because funnily enough it didn't work!

Same goes for all the correctional collars on the market. You start giving corrections on a normal collar and your dog doesn't improve. So you buy a choke chain. When that fails you move on to a prong. Still nothing? Get a shock collar - and don't worry, if it doesn't work you can whack the shock up to level 10!


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