# Do You Refund When Your Kittens Die From FIP?



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Sorry for spamming you guys- there's been a discussion on a local board and I was just surprised about the outcome. It turns out (based on this board), that I am a minority! 

For me: I do not refund owners if a kitten dies from FIP (unless it happened shortly after the move). However, the vast majority seem to think that one should refund even if the cat dies after the age of 1 year. I do not see the logic in this- it (FIP) is not something which can be helped and I would think that when one chooses to adopt a living animal, it is a risk one takes that sometimes things go wrong. I would personally never expect to get a refund from my breeder (honestly, it wouldn't even cross my mind). Furthermore, breeders do not make a profit so it is not like when one buys a washing machine/ipod/ laptop where there is a healthy mark-up to cover repairs, tech support, marketing and what-not. 

Mind you, I may provide a refund if I happen to have the financial resources at that time and also because it might be easier than dealing with an angry owner but not because I think it's right/fair. 

My question is: Do you refund kitten buyers if your kitten is ill/dies from FIP at the age of lets say 10 months and up? And if so, why? If not, why? Are your views common in the UK? If you do provide a refund, do you give a full refund/ discount/new kitten?


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

If I had bought a kitten/cat that had FIP I wouldn't expect a refund at all... but that's just my opinion.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It depends on the circumstances. If any of my cats were FCoV +ve and: 
it was the only cat in the household, 
had never been boarded in a cattery, 
never been allowed to roam 
had been diagnosed within 18 months of leaving me 
the appropriate tests were carried out and it wasn't just some vague 'opinion'
then I think I would be prepared to consider some arrangement. Every one of those conditions would have to be met if some time had passed. In reality if a kitten is going to succumb to FIP and the FCoV originated in the breeder's household then they do tend to go quite quickly after moving to a new home.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And if so, why?


Just noticed this bit. I picked 18 months as a timescale because Dr Addie's diagnosis process says that a cat which hasn't had any contact with other cats for 18 months is unlikely to have FIP. I've sort of turned it round to mean that for 18 months after initial infection with FCoV there is 'some' chance of FIP, presumably on an ever reducing scale.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

FIP can only be conclusively diagnosed with a post-mortem - autopsy - so I would expect one to be done for anyone wanting a refund.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Thank you for your replies. 

I would refund if a kitten develops FIP shortly after the move and anyway, the law states that breeders (if it is considered a business but apparently if one charges for the kitten, it will be considered a business and not a hobby) will have to refund if a pet dies within 6 months of purchase (because EU law says that an animal is a thing) so we don't have a choice. However, if a kitten only develops/dies of FIP after that, it seems silly to me that a breeder has to pay for that. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the new family is upset and it's a sad event but I would think that the fault does not fall with the breeder so why should it be almost an obligation for a breeder to do so? 

havoc: I agree with your logic also- if the kitten obviously contracted this from the breeder then yes, it would be fair that the breeder provides a refund but if it can't really be proven (for eg. kitten also has another feline friend at home etc.)


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> FIP can only be conclusively diagnosed with a post-mortem - autopsy - so I would expect one to be done for anyone wanting a refund.


Actually this part also came out from the discussion from the local board and the general opinion was actually even if a kitten dies from any other reason (minus accidents, neglect, abuse) for example, lets say cancer, a breeder should also refund (these are opinions by breeders, not by buyers so it was a shock for me and I wondered if I was being a bad breeder).

They say an autopsy is expensive and furthermore often somewhat inconclusive (for eg. it will say "FIP is not ruled out"). My opinion is: this is all listed in the contract (for eg. for me, I give a HCM and PKD guarantee and I do expect a post mortem which will be financed by the buyer) and if a buyer wants a refund, they should be willing to invest this sum to get the bigger sum back...

Ah I'm just confused and I don't enjoy being perceived as a bad breeder


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> FIP can only be conclusively diagnosed with a post-mortem - autopsy - so I would expect one to be done for anyone wanting a refund


Full FIP panels don't just test for FCoV antibodies. They test for the level of the virus these days and combining that with other results leads to a result I would accept as proof of FIP in a living animal. I've never seen or heard of a positive FIP result from a proper full panel of tests at Glasgow end up as a misdiagnosis.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Don't think I would be looking for refund if all that time had passed. One of my Boxers had heart problems as soon as we told breeder she took all her stock to be tested all were clear. This was when heart problems were just being recognised in Boxers so she couldn't have done any more. She offered us our money back but we didn't take it also would have given us the pup she had kept from litter.

I think there's too much searching for someone to blame in these cases. Sometimes bad things just happen


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I share your opinion, cava14 una. 

I also wonder where it stops. After all , a cat is expected to live 12-18 years so if a cat dies at 6 years old, that's also below 'reasonable expectations' (because according to the law, the 'item' should fulfill reasonable expectations) so does that mean breeders have to be prepared for a refund forever? *sigh* 

Luckily, I haven't had a kitten dying on me yet and I think I found reasonable owners but it will probably happen one day....


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

My breeder will generally replace (not refund) a kitten that dies before the age of 3 years from any cause (minus air shipping). 

That said, I think her policy if far too generous.

At what age are they considered safe from developing FIP?


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Very nice of your breeder, Toby Tyler! 

I've been thinking: I guess the odds of this happening is quite low so for breeders, it might be best to just pay and shut up because fighting just causes stress. It's just interesting though that the breeder is EXPECTED to rather than it's NICE of the breeder to.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> At what age are they considered safe from developing FIP?


Never. There comes a point though where it is beyond all reason to try and trace an original infection back to the breeder.

As to anything else, well everything is genetic to a certain extent. There may be a genetic predisposition to developing disease just as there is in humans. In the vast majority of cases (with both humans and animals) genetics alone isn't the trigger, lifestyle is. So no, I won't be refunding my kitten buyers if their cat dies young of weight related diabetes having been fed a diet of carbs.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I would likely offer another kitten if within 18 months or so, I do have a contract but there are also times things are done at the breeders digression.

I replaced a kitten that was over 12 months that passed due to an accident in the home, they lost my boy and another of their cats, while I was under no obligation I had no problem giving them another kitten.
Nothing to do with money, but helping a heartbroken family - and they didn't ask for anything.


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## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

My kitten died at 6 months, more than likely fip.):


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I think that's great, spotty_cats.

What I don't agree is is why it is practically a MUST (in the discussion) rather than a nice thing a breeder chooses to do/can afford to do at that time. I hope the EU will soon recognise animals as living beings rather than classed as a thing/good. :/


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

I would replace or refund on a kitten who died before 6 months old UNLESS the insurance had already paid out the full purchase price to the owner.

Over that age depends on the circumstances of the kitten passing away and I would treat each case as individual.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Soupie: May I ask what insurance covers the purchase price of a kitten? Is it some kind of special breeders insurance?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

No standard pet insurance gives you option of insuring againt purchase price too. All of mine are insured for purchase price as well as vets fees and the girls are also insured for breeding risks with a specialist company.

Purchase price though is on many pet policies as an insurable risk


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Soupie said:


> No standard pet insurance gives you option of insuring againt purchase price too. All of mine are insured for purchase price as well as vets fees and the girls are also insured for breeding risks with a specialist company.
> 
> Purchase price though is on many pet policies as an insurable risk


Some of the policies here include death by injury or illness but insurance just isn't a common thing since for most people it's really not worth the monthly expense with the exclusions of what's not covered, especially for indoor cats.

Breeding cats can't be insured here, c-sections etc. must just be considered as a risk of breeding rather than something they're willing to cover.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Insurance cover seems to be better over here and indeed or the small cost per month I encourage my owners to insure. If a kitten died and insurance covered their purchase price then they should not also be refunded by me as it would mean fraud in the insurance companies eyes - ie being paid twice for the same thing.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> What I don't agree is is why it is practically a MUST (in the discussion)


I can't see how there could be an all encompassing 'must'. There are so many variables and each case would have to be considered individually. Unfortunately there are breeders who repeatedly sell kittens which succumb to FIP. It could happen to any of us, once is unfortunate, twice is extremely unlucky and any more than that starts to verge on the downright irresponsible. To say it's a disease which can't be helped isn't strictly true if a breeder has a continuing problem. They do have a responsibility to minimise risk and it is possible to eliminate FCoV from a household. No FCoV = no FIP - at least not originating from the breeder.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks for the info on insurance, Soupie. I know PetPlan doesn't cover that at all but I'll check others to see. It would be quite handy. 

Havoc: It is a MUST for the 6 months after purchase due to EU regulations (the hierarchy is EU before the laws of your own country) and there is jurisprudence where buyers have won and breeders had to pay not only the cost of purchase price but also vet bills and the cremation. After the first 6 months of purchase, buyers can still sue but the burden on proof lays on them. 

In the local discussion, some of the local breeders just said that it was like a moral obligation to refund buyers even if a kitten dies from FIP at age 1 and made it seem as if if one chooses not to, it's like they are a bad breeder who only cares about money. As I said, I don't think this is a moral obligation and I don't see why the breeder is the one who has to swallow the punch (I mean, first we make zero profit. The manufacturing cost price of an iPhone is like $190 and it is sold or over $500 so Apple can for eg. afford support, repairs, and so on. Breeders do not. Secondly, a kitten replacement in my case probably costs more than the actual purchase price so neither would be a good option for me). I did mention about FCoV testing but was told that this is a dreamworld I was living in - aparrently it is practically impossible to control unless one wants to live in a lab etc. Oh and my most important point is: it's just like... do you (owners) want to own a kitten or not?! If you aren't willing to take the risks of owning a live animal, then just don't get one instead of running to the breeder asking for a refund if something happens (of course if this happens shortly after leaving the breeder, yes)... I am a pet owner myself and I never once considered my breeder to be liable for my cats (unless of course he/she knowingly bred from cats with HCM/PKD/whatever genetic diseases). 

Anyway, I don't really mind/care (it was new to me though)- I was curious about the opinions in the UK (and also Australia where spotty is!). I would like to test my cats for FCoV but Cosmills says blood is the way to go and I don't really think I want/should send my cats for a blood test all the time. It is stressful and they absolutely hate it. The faeces test was do-able I thought. And then as everyone said, there's the problem of negative kittens being exposed to other cats in the new household..... 

All in all though, the chances of FCoV developing to FIP is significant but still small (10%). This has not happened to me yet, I am not a big breeder so the odds are possibly even less (also because less cats, easier to keep things clean etc.) but always best to prepare early so as to ensure proper 'management'.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Generally I just follow Swedish legislation which states that any illness/defect that occurs within 6 months after the kitten was sold is considered to have been present before the deal=the breeder has to refund or pay for the vet treatment. However, if the breeder can prove that the illness/defect didn't exist before the kitten was sold he/she doesn't have to refund/replace. In practice most breeders never bother trying to prove that the "fault" occurred after the kitten was sold.

Swedish law also states that a buyer can make a complaint up 'til 3 years after the deal, but after 6 months the buyer has to prove that the fault existed before the kitten was sold.

This is what I generally follow, then of course there can be circumstances where I may choose to do otherwise.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Havoc: It is a MUST for the 6 months after purchase due to EU regulations (the hierarchy is EU before the laws of your own country) and there is jurisprudence where buyers have won and breeders had to pay not only the cost of purchase price but also vet bills and the cremation. After the first 6 months of purchase, buyers can still sue but the burden on proof lays on them.


I'm guessing that in your country all cat breeders are then automatically considered to be commercial entities. Here they are not and private sales do not have the same protection.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

pipje said:


> <snip>
> As I said, I don't think this is a moral obligation and I don't see why the breeder is the one who has to swallow the punch (I mean, first we make zero profit. Not the buyers problem.





> The manufacturing cost price of an iPhone is like $190 and it is sold or over $500 so Apple can for eg. afford support, repairs, and so on. Breeders do not. Not the buyers problem.





> Secondly, a kitten replacement in my case probably costs more than the actual purchase price so neither would be a good option for me). Not the buyers problem.





> Oh and my most important point is: it's just like... do you (owners) want to own a kitten or not?! If you aren't willing to take the risks of owning a live animal, then just don't get one instead of running to the breeder asking for a refund if something happens (of course if this happens shortly after leaving the breeder, yes)... I am a pet owner myself and I never once considered my breeder to be liable for my cats (unless of course he/she knowingly bred from cats with HCM/PKD/whatever genetic diseases). What's considered a short amount of time? If I paid £500 for a kitten that died aged 7 months, I want to know why, and the first person I will be looking to for answers is the breeder (after the vet obviously)<snip>


Just to clarify, the bits in red, are what _some_ new owners could come back with, if you raised those points with them.

They spent a lot of money on something they dearly wanted, only to have it snatched away in a couple of months. Working on the premise that the kitten doesn't leave the breeder til 3 months of age, if it dies at 7 months of age, they have only had it 16 weeks - £500 (or whatever the cost) is a* lot* of money for something you only keep for a few weeks when you are expecting to keep it for years.

Personally, I _wouldn't_ ask for a refund. I haven't even got mine insured for the purchase price - if I lost _any_ of them, the last thing on my mind would be claiming back what I paid for them - and I would just feel 'wrong' somehow to claim it.

Holly was diagnosed with a heart murmur at her first vets appt with me, and the vet said 'you should take her back and get a refund' - no way - wasn't going to happen, I'd only had her a week, but she was _my_ baby, she wasn't going anywhere!

I did let the breeder know, as I thought I should, but it never crossed my mind to take her back and get my money back.

So the red bits aren't my personal opinion, but I can imagine, that some people would think along those lines.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Holly was diagnosed with a heart murmur at her first vets appt with me, and the vet said 'you should take her back and get a refund' - no way - wasn't going to happen, *I'd only had her a week, but she was my baby*, she wasn't going anywhere!


This is where it all becomes very difficult. I'd lost touch of the emotional investment until a couple of years ago when a family member bought a new puppy. It really hit me just how quickly owners are completely bonded and how much of a wrench it would be if anything went wrong. I was besotted within an hour and wasn't even mine  There are times I see posts on here and I want to scream 'take it back' but I know it will never be an option.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

havoc said:


> I'm guessing that in your country all cat breeders are then automatically considered to be commercial entities. Here they are not and private sales do not have the same protection.


That is correct. All the above would fall under a business-consumer sale (which is why it is unfavourable to the breeder). The problem however is that while most breeders breed as private individuals (hobby breeders), the line between business and hobby is a very, very thin one and is up to interpretation (so a cattery could not have a business registration number but if someone decides to argue this, the cattery could indeed be found to be one).

What they look out for: Does the cattery charge money? Yes. Does the cattery have a website? I would say many do. Does the cattery advertise? Yes, possibly on websites like Pets4Home etc. Does the cattery state that they breed with healthy animals? There are some that do. Does the cattery state to be A-free, B-free,C-free (e.g. PKD-free, FCoV-free etc.) catteries? Some do. These are some of the 'signs' they (the judge or so I've heard) look at to determine if it is a business or not. I think we can say that most of us hobby breeders/ private individuals fit te above


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

MCWillow said:


> Just to clarify, the bits in red, are what _some_ new owners could come back with, if you raised those points with them.
> 
> They spent a lot of money on something they dearly wanted, only to have it snatched away in a couple of months. Working on the premise that the kitten doesn't leave the breeder til 3 months of age, if it dies at 7 months of age, they have only had it 16 weeks - £500 (or whatever the cost) is a* lot* of money for something you only keep for a few weeks when you are expecting to keep it for years.
> 
> ...


MCWillow: My post was also more focused towards older cats (so not that the kitten gets ill immediately after purchase. It is generally accepted that if the kitten dies 6 months after purchase so that would make them around 9 months old from FIP, that the breeder would usually just refund it -or prove that the problem didn't come from them); lets say 10 months old and up.

The heart murmur thing however, that's another dangerous ground ergh because if it's a genetic condition, it could be determined that it was already there when buyer bought it.

*sigh* Honestly, at this rate, I'm really very unlikely to continue breeding. It is so scary, like a pack of cards which could crumble anytime:/


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There are regulations here for dog breeders once they expand beyond a certain number of breeding animals but not for cats. I believe there was time our tax system decided to target cat breeders and decided they couldn't, in the main, be a business. Although a business doesn't have to make profit it became pretty clear that pedigree cat breeders only ever made a loss ie it was a hobby as hobbies cost money. There are a few breeders I can think of who do sail very close to wind on this subject. They have separate, kennel like accommodation for their cats and are clearly running as a commercial enterprise, very different to someone with a couple of breeding queens which share the owners house - and probably their bed


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

When it comes to if a cattery is considered a business or not, at least in Sweden tax legislation doesn't matter when it comes to the legislation that protects buyers rights. Here the tax legislation basically always define a cat breeder as a hobby project, not a business. One of three major criterions you have to fulfill in order to reach the tax legislation definition of a business is: you have to have a *purpose* if earning money on whatever it is your doing (breeding cats).

But, when it comes to consumers rights the legislation doesn't care if you as a breeder make money or not. Here the only concern is if your breeding program seems to be run professionally and basically all are considered to be run professionally since you have a continuos activity in the cattery (let's say one litter a year), you advertise, you plan the activity etc.

So tax legislation and consumers rights are different things here and usually a breeder is considered to run a business when it comes to consumers rights, but we're not considered running a business by the tax legislation.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

cerridwen sums it so much better than I did! hope everyone (in the eu) understands it now


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

They are separate entities here too but one can be quoted as evidence with regard to the other. Unless and until such legislation can encompass every moggy owner who also has a litter a year and sells the kittens then it will be considered on a case by case basis.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> cerridwen sums it so much better than I did! hope everyone (in the eu) understands it now


For clarity, I am not suggesting that consumer law is not EU wide. I am saying that the words


> Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business


 which are contained within the act are what seems to make the difference. There is obviously no EU wide law which defines a 'business' where cat breeding is concerned and that is what causes the difference from country to country.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> They are separate entities here too but one can be quoted as evidence with regard to the other. Unless and until such legislation can encompass every moggy owner who also has a litter a year and sells the kittens then it will be considered on a case by case basis.


In Sweden moggy breeders are included as well. Not spaying your female and letting her breed continuously is considered planned breeding. However, these breeders rarely charge much (if anything) for their kittens so there's no real economic risk to buy a moggy kitten. Usually a breeder isn't judged to refund more than what the kitten acually is worth or to pay vet bills that exceed the sum the kitten was sold for.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Usually a breeder isn't judged to refund more than what the kitten acually is worth or to pay vet bills that exceed the sum the kitten was sold for


Consequential loss is provided for in the Sale of Goods Act here - when and if it is judged to apply of course


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm not sure where I stand on the morality issue but personally, if I lost one of my babies, the last thing I would be concerned with would be hounding the breeder for a refund, it just seems .......wrong  my babies are not TVs , they cannot be replaced.

For this reason, I have chosen not to insure their purchase price , receiving a cheque from Pet Plan for their "value" would upset me greatly 

But then, I am a bit soft 

Some of you may know that my Mr Smokey Pants has a growth deformity in both front legs causing his legs to bow significantly. I did contact the breeder but only because I felt she should know that smokey was going to have to have major surgery. 

She immediately offered to take him back and offered me another kitten. I of course said no, I love him, crooked legs and all


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm not sure where I stand on the morality issue but personally, if I lost one of my babies, the last thing I would be concerned with would be hounding the breeder for a refund


I wouldn't always consider it 'hounding' though I do know what you mean. There are people who breed kittens and sell them when they know full well they have a solvable problem within their household and I consider that to be negligent. One of the reasons I have for not giving more detailed answers to the discussion on consumer law is that there must be bad breeders who read this forum as well as all the good ones and I am not of a mind to give them a packaged defence on a plate.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

As a breeder I have to say that I would absolutely not feel "hounded" or be offended if a kitten buyer contacts me about a sick kitten and wonders about the possibility of refunding. First of all I want to know if I have an infectious or genetic problem in my cattery. My cats are precious to me, it includes the ones I've sold. It would be impossible for me to have kittens at home for 16 weeks without them getting to me. I don't want to breed sick cats and I don't want sick cats.

In order to be able to breed healthy cats I need to know what happens to the cats I breed. If they become ill I need to know. Not everything will affect my breeding program or my housing, but you never know.

As for refunding, I'll gladly refund if the "fault" comes from me. Infectious or genetic. 

No kitten buyer of mine should feel weird about contacting me about things like this. I'm very clear on that when I sell kittens. I want honesty and I want to help all I can if any problems occur: illness, rehoming, behavioral problems or whatever.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> As a breeder I have to say that I would absolutely not feel "hounded" or be offended if a kitten buyer contacts me about a sick kitten and wonders about the possibility of refunding. First of all I want to know if I have an infectious or genetic problem in my cattery. My cats are precious to me, it includes the ones I've sold. It would be impossible for me to have kittens at home for 16 weeks without them getting to me. I don't want to breed sick cats and I don't want sick cats.
> 
> In order to be able to breed healthy cats I need to know what happens to the cats I breed. If they become ill I need to know. Not everything will affect my breeding program or my housing, but you never know.
> 
> ...


Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself well ...... I would of course tell the breeder because its very important that they know like you say  asking for a refund however wouldn't even cross my mind.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Cats cats cats said:


> Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself well ...... I would of course tell the breeder because its very important that they know like you say  asking for a refund however wouldn't even cross my mind.


That is great. I think most people (owners and breeders) are reasonable but sometimes there are people who are not and that is when things get messy.


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## bernie77 (Oct 30, 2014)

REGARDING "It is a MUST for the 6 months after purchase due to EU regulations (the hierarchy is EU before the laws of your own country) and there is jurisprudence where buyers have won and breeders had to pay not only the cost of purchase price but also vet bills and the cremation. After the first 6 months of purchase, buyers can still sue but the burden on proof lays on them" Can someone please point me into the direction of where to find the EU law regarding this?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> It depends on the circumstances. If any of my cats were FCoV +ve and:
> it was the only cat in the household,
> had never been boarded in a cattery,
> never been allowed to roam
> ...


AFAIK the only definitive diagnosis is a PM, but most people don't get one.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> AFAIK the only definitive diagnosis is a PM, but most people don't get one


That's exactly what I would have said before I got involved in a case where a full battery of results were returned from Glasgow. I'd never seen the full virus testing before and all I can say is I think it would tip the balance of probability way over. I wouldn't want to try and argue against it. By the time the results were through the kitten had died but they had been sent off pre mortem.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Found this, last updated October 2011:

Dr. Addie - What is FIP ? of FIP


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cava14 una said:


> Don't think I would be looking for refund if all that time had passed. One of my Boxers had heart problems as soon as we told breeder she took all her stock to be tested all were clear. This was when heart problems were just being recognised in Boxers so she couldn't have done any more. She offered us our money back but we didn't take it also would have given us the pup she had kept from litter.
> 
> I think there's too much searching for someone to blame in these cases. *Sometimes bad things just happen*


Totally agree. I'm not a breeder, but I wouldn't expect someone I got a kitten or puppy from to be responsible ad infinitum.

As they probably said to Abraham Lincoln's wife - "Shot happens".

Our culture has gone from one where we make sellers/manufacturers etc take responsibility for dangerous or shoddy merchandise (good), to one where if _anything_ at all goes wrong, ever, we look for someone to blame (not good)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There's nothing I haven't seen before on Diane Addie's site. I understand a position that FIP can only be diagnosed on PM. I'm saying that having seen documents from a respected source I believe they would have held sway in a court. There was *no *doubt in my mind, taking all the evidence into account, that this kitten had died of FIP and the lack of a PM wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

In this particular case there was no way of knowing where the FCoV had originated. The buyers had obtained two kittens from different sources and neither source could show their household to be FCoV free.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I too have experience of seeing results of tests that were carried out on a sick cat (where the clinical signs pointed towards FIP) and I wouldn't want to argue against a diagnosis of FIP based upon those results. Putting everything else to one side, in such circumstances I think it would be unfair to use the argument that only a PM is definitive.

The above mentioned tests were carried out on a kitten I bred on behalf of the kitten's owners. I was fully prepared (and had offered) to refund the kitten's purchase price, although the situation was by no means clear cut as they owned another kitten, but withdrew that offer when the owners VERY swiftly became aggressive in their stance and wanted me to pay their vet bill, despite the fact the kitten was insured because in their eyes I was "morally responsible". Their solicitor also added interest on a daily basis to the amount they were asking for and also wanted to hold me legally liable, should their other kitten succumb to FIP.

I think this illustrates that how a breeder will respond in such circumstances depends upon how the owners themselves approach things as much as anything else.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I too have experience of seeing results of tests that were carried out on a sick cat (where the clinical signs pointed towards FIP) and I wouldn't want to argue against a diagnosis of FIP based upon those results. Putting everything else to one side, in such circumstances I think it would be unfair to use the argument that only a PM is definitive.
> 
> The above mentioned tests were carried out on a kitten I bred on behalf of the kitten's owners. I was fully prepared (and had offered) to refund the kitten's purchase price, although the situation was by no means clear cut as they owned another kitten, but withdrew that offer when the owners VERY swiftly became aggressive in their stance and wanted me to pay their vet bill, despite the fact the kitten was insured because in their eyes I was "morally responsible". Their solicitor also added interest on a daily basis to the amount they were asking for and also wanted to hold me legally liable, should their other kitten succumb to FIP.
> 
> I think this illustrates that how a breeder will respond in such circumstances depends upon how the owners themselves approach things as much as anything else.


What a nightmare.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think this illustrates that how a breeder will respond in such circumstances depends upon how the owners themselves approach things


That makes sense. In general I have found that vets can play a large part in how owners react when things go wrong - not necessarily just FIP but all manner of things. A chance remark over the smallest of problems can get picked up by a worried owner and become the thing they focus on as an absolute truth.


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