# What does it mean to endorse a puppy?



## iwantadog

Sorry if its a stupid question, but theres a lot of mention on this site of puppies being "endorsed" - what does this mean?

Wendy


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## clueless

You can endorse your puppies when you register them with the Kennel Club. It means that if anyone breeds from the pup you sold, they would not be able to register the litter.
I endorse all my pups and only lift endorsements if the pup turns out to be a good example of the breed, relevant health tests done and been evaluated by a breed specialist as well as myself.
You have to get the owner to sign saying they have been informed about the endorsement and that they understand it


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## garydogz

iwantadog said:


> Sorry if its a stupid question, but theres a lot of mention on this site of puppies being "endorsed" - what does this mean?
> 
> Wendy


If you buy an endorsed puppy what that means is that, although you have paid your money to buy it and have all the responsibility for loving and caring for it, what you chose to do with that pup a couple of years down the line is not entirely up to you. You have to ask someone else's permission if you want to KC register any pups that may result from you breeding from your pup. An endorsed pup is only worth buying if you are after a pet dog.


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## iwantadog

Ahh ok, thanks!:thumbsup:


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## Guest

garydogz said:


> An endorsed pup is only worth buying if you are after a pet dog.


No it isn't,
A good breeder will endorse to protect the puppy and to protect there breeding,the breeder will usually state in the puppy sales agreement under what terms they will be lifted,i.e the dog is sound both in body and mind,is over a certain age and has had the relavent tests done required for that particular breed,is a good example of it's breed accessed by breed judges etc...


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## kazza1964

I would never buy an endorsed pup if I buy a pup it is up to me what I then do with the pup not the ex owner no way would I ask permission to then breed that pup when I'd bought it in the first place & cared for it for how many years

To me a breeder only endorses a pup so they have less competition when breeding again as there will be less pups about selfish is what I call it


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## Guest

Seems some people have funny ideas about endorsements,that the breeder still has some amount of control,well in my eyes the breeder is responsible for any dog they breed until the day it dies,unless they are a PF or a BYB who don't give a stuff.
I endorse all of mine never had a problem 

I don't see where the problem lies when the breeder is willing to lift it,If people have a problem with buying an endorsed pup from us then they are very welcome to go elsewhere.
I would buy a pup with endorsements it tells me the breeder cares about what happens to a puppy they bred.


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## garydogz

kazza1964 said:


> I would never buy an endorsed pup if I buy a pup it is up to me what I then do with the pup not the ex owner no way would I ask permission to then breed that pup when I'd bought it in the first place & cared for it for how many years
> 
> To me a breeder only endorses a pup so they have less competition when breeding again as there will be less pups about selfish is what I call it


Thats the way I see it as well. If an endorsement is lifted for the asking then why put it on in the first place? Whatever the criteria they use the result is that you/your dog or both have to be judged.


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## rach1980

i think endorsements are a good idea. Kaiser has an endorsement which will be lifted only if he is hip and elbow scored. its a good way of ensuring only healthy dogs are breed from


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## Guest

garydogz said:


> Thats the way I see it as well. If an endorsement is lifted for the asking then why put it on in the first place? Whatever the criteria they use the result is that you/your dog or both have to be judged.


As I said they will be lifted by the terms set out in the sales agreement,for example the dog has met every requirement apart from been sound and has temperament issues or health testing hasn't been done,the breeder then has the right to refuse to lift it.

No decent breeder will refuse to lift without a very good reason.
It doesn't bother me,as I said people who are not happy with an endorsed pup can go elsewhere and yes I would buy an endorsed pup.


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## Guest

the same with cats, when i brought tink she was on a non active register and if i wanted to show her i had to tell the breeder. i think all pedigree cats are on the non active unless you spacificaly have one on the active, i know its diffrent but... thought it could relate?


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## jackson

kazza1964 said:


> I would never buy an endorsed pup if I buy a pup it is up to me what I then do with the pup not the ex owner no way would I ask permission to then breed that pup when I'd bought it in the first place & cared for it for how many years
> 
> *To me a breeder only endorses a pup so they have less competition when breeding again as there will be less pups about selfish is what I call it*


Sorry, but that is an absolutely ridiculous assumption to make!

I endorse all my pups. the reason I do it has nothing to do with 'less competition' for me when I breed again and it has nothign to do with being selfish.

I endorse them to protect them and the breed from being exploited and ruined. It's not a guaramntee, but it helps stop people breeding without doing the proper health tests and getting good results, so therefore helps stop people producing unhealthy puppies.

Every one of my puppy 'buyers' signs a contract to say they understand the endorsements and accept them. If they have the health tests done with good results, and the dog or bitch is a good example of the breed, and old enough to breed from, I will lift the endorsements for nothing.

If someone is more concenred about me having a say in their 'property' than the welfare of the dog, they can buy a puppy elsewhere.


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## iwantadog

Ok, I think I understand why people endorse puppies, but if I bought a puppy it would literally be as a pet, I would never want to breed from any dog I purchased. I don't see any reason why I would have to ask the breeder permission to do something with what would be MY dog. What/who enforces these endoresements?

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just a question!!!


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## Guest

i might be being a bit blonde here but is the endorsement just for breeding perposes? if so i think its a good idea as there are no end of people out there buying dogs just to breed with no care for the dog! look at all the puppy farms!


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## Guest

n-a-t-a-s-h-a said:


> i might be being a bit blonde here but is the endorsement just for breeding perposes? if so i think its a good idea as there are no end of people out there buying dogs just to breed with no care for the dog! look at all the puppy farms!


Here you go,
Endorsements - The Kennel Club
Endorsements
27-Jun-06

What are endorsements?

Kennel Club regulations allow the registered owner of a dog to place endorsements on a dog's records, provided that the dog is in their physical possession and registered ownership. The endorsements which may be placed are:

R - PROGENY NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REGISTRATION

X - EXPORT PEDIGREE NOT ALLOWED

The first, "Progeny Not Eligible For Registration" does not prevent a dog being bred from, but it does prevent this dog's progeny from being registered at the Kennel Club.

Similarly, "Export Pedigree Not Allowed" does not prevent a dog from being exported overseas (except to Malta), but does prevent the dog from being registered with an overseas Kennel Club.

Why are endorsements placed?

Owners have individual reasons for placing endorsements, which should be explained by them to the purchaser before, or at the time of sale.

How do I place an endorsement on a dog?

The Kennel Club will only accept an application to place an endorsement on a dog's records provided that the dog is in the physical possession and registered ownership of that person. It should be noted that this is a prime requirement. If it transpires that the endorsement was placed after the dog had left the physical possession of the person placing it, then the endorsement would not have been placed in accordance with Kennel Club regulations. Therefore the endorsement would then have to lifted regardless of any other factors.

Endorsements can be placed at the time of registration:

1. If you have registered your litter using the Online Litter Registration Service go to Online Litter Registration/endorsements and follow the instructions or

2. In the appropriate box on the Form 1 (Application to register a litter).

Alternatively if the dog has already been registered, the owner will need to write in to the Kennel Club requesting that an endorsement be placed upon the records of a dog. The letter should clearly state the breed, Kennel Club registered name and Kennel Club registration number for the dog, and that the owner has physical possession of the dog. The owner should also enclose the registration certificate for the dog so that this can annotated accordingly. A letter of confirmation will then be sent advising that this request has been carried out.

Litter applications, which include endorsements, are sometimes submitted too late for the endorsed registration certificate to be available at the date of sale of the dog. In some cases, disputes may subsequently arise between the two parties if the purchaser claims that he was not aware that his newly purchased dog would be subjected to certain restrictions. When the purchaser and vendor are unable to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution, the Kennel Club is often prevailed upon to intervene. Arbitrating in such instances is often very difficult for there are usually conflicting views on whether the vendor had advised the purchaser of the endorsements at the time of sale.

In attempt to lessen the Kennel Club's involvement in what is essentially a private dispute, the Kennel Club will apply the following criterion when assessing whether or not an endorsement should be lifted, as per Kennel Club regulation B12. Written confirmation must be obtained from the new owner at the time of sale to state that they have been made aware of any proposed endorsements, even if the endorsed registration certificate is given at the time of sale. In the event of a dispute where such evidence exists, the Kennel Club would normally decide in favour of the vendor's endorsements being retained. Conversely, in the absence of such written evidence, the Kennel Club would normally decide in favour of the purchaser and lift the endorsement. However, this would only apply in cases where a dog is transferred from the person who placed the endorsement to a new ownership.

This should be advantageous to both the breeder and the purchaser and help to prevent protracted correspondence and possible litigation. This additional requirement was introduced in January 2003, and applies to cases referred to the Kennel Club where the endorsement was placed subsequent to this date.

How do I remove an endorsement?

An endorsement may only be lifted at the written request of the person who placed the endorsement. The letter should clearly state the breed, Kennel Club registered name and Kennel Club registration number, and should be accompanied by the dog's registration certificate. When the endorsement has been removed, a letter of confirmation will be sent to this person advising that this has been carried out.

It should be noted that the General Committee reserves the right to remove or maintain any endorsement. There may be occasions when it is necessary to refer an endorsement dispute to the Committee.


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## jackson

iwantadog said:


> Ok, I think I understand why people endorse puppies, but if I bought a puppy it would literally be as a pet, I would never want to breed from any dog I purchased. I don't see any reason why I would have to ask the breeder permission to do something with what would be MY dog. What/who enforces these endoresements?
> 
> Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just a question!!!


The Kennel Club will not allow you to register any puppies you breed from an endorsed dog or bitch.

Considering 23,000 dogs were put to sleep last year, I can see why breeders want to ensure that puppies they breed are only responsibly bred from in the future. You breed a dog, you are responsible for it for it's whole life. That also ultimately means any puppies bred from it.

i paid £700 for Poppy. I hoep to breed from her in the future, but she is endorsed. Hopefully she'll turn out well enough and have good enough health test results that her breeder agrees to lift the endorsement. She might not. however, I accept that and will obviously not breed from hr while she is endorsed. Why?! Because I care about the breed and accept an dagre with her breeders reaons for not lifting them if she decides not to.


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## Guest

from reading that the i think its a good idea, if your not planning to breed and just after the pet then i wouldnt worry about it. the first puppy we had was endorsed. if your after a dog to breed then you go to someone that will give you one if this breeder will not lift it.


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## kazza1964

jackson said:


> Sorry, but that is an absolutely ridiculous assumption to make!
> 
> I endorse all my pups. the reason I do it has nothing to do with 'less competition' for me when I breed again and it has nothign to do with being selfish.
> 
> I endorse them to protect them and the breed from being exploited and ruined. It's not a guaramntee, but it helps stop people breeding without doing the proper health tests and getting good results, so therefore helps stop people producing unhealthy puppies.
> 
> Every one of my puppy 'buyers' signs a contract to say they understand the endorsements and accept them. If they have the health tests done with good results, and the dog or bitch is a good example of the breed, and old enough to breed from, I will lift the endorsements for nothing.
> 
> If someone is more concenred about me having a say in their 'property' than the welfare of the dog, they can buy a puppy elsewhere.


Sorry but if someone pays good money for something it is theirs end of - no way would I be told what I could & can't do with my own possession

It only stops pups being kc'd anyway so someone could still have a pup off you & create a designer breed in effect "ruining the breed" & selling for more than your pedigrees all from your stock


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## jackson

kazza1964 said:


> Sorry but if someone pays good money for something it is theirs end of - no way would I be told what I could & can't do with my own possession
> 
> It only stops pups being kc'd anyway so someone could still have a pup off you & create a designer breed in effect "ruining the breed" & selling for more than your pedigrees all from your stock


Well, there's the difference. I don't see dogs as possessions. Do you also agre then that you shouldn't have to return your pup to the breeder, should you no longer be able to keep it? After all, it is your possession.

There is a saying that says 'it might be your dog, but it'll always be my baby'. 

Yes, you're right, someone could still breed from them, but the endiorsements put a lot of irresponsible people off. After all, purebred KC pups usually fetch more money than non-KC reg. purebreds. But that is why I am extremely careful about who I sell my puppies to and spend hours with them while they visit. I also maintain a good relationship with them once they have the pup. That also helps to protect them.


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## Guest

jackson said:


> Well, there's the difference. I don't see dogs as possessions. Do you also agre then that you shouldn't have to return your pup to the breeder, should you no longer be able to keep it? After all, it is your possession.
> 
> There is a saying that says 'it might be your dog, but it'll always be my baby'.
> 
> Yes, you're right, someone could still breed from them, but the endiorsements put a lot of irresponsible people off. After all, purebred KC pups usually fetch more money than non-KC reg. purebreds. But that is why I am extremely careful about who I sell my puppies to and spend hours with them while they visit. I also maintain a good relationship with them once they have the pup. That also helps to protect them.


Same here, and lets face it your breed and mine is hardly lacking in numbers,I'm sure if the buyer was not willing to accept the endorsement they would find another,probably a lot cheaper to do as they wish with including breeding then dumping them in rescue


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## garydogz

jackson said:


> Well, there's the difference. I don't see dogs as possessions. Do you also agre then that you shouldn't have to return your pup to the breeder, should you no longer be able to keep it? After all, it is your possession.
> 
> There is a saying that says 'it might be your dog, but it'll always be my baby'.
> 
> Yes, you're right, someone could still breed from them, but the endiorsements put a lot of irresponsible people off. After all, purebred KC pups usually fetch more money than non-KC reg. purebreds. But that is why I am extremely careful about who I sell my puppies to and spend hours with them while they visit. I also maintain a good relationship with them once they have the pup. That also helps to protect them.


If the pup comes up short on the "mind and body" tests or does not get a good enough mark on one of its health tests do you then give a refund of some sort?


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## kazza1964

If you own your dog you possess it so yes they are possessions whichever way you "see them" doesn't mean yours are treated any better than mine 

And yes none of my dogs will ever go back to the breeder if in the unlikely event I have to rehome any of my dogs I will find good homes for them as its my responsibility I have loved them for years as oppose to the 8 weeks they were with the breeder so I know whats best for them I know their nature & temprement their breeders know nothing about who they are now

My dogs are my dogs they're no-one elses "babies" only mine I paid for that right


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## jackson

garydogz said:


> If the pup comes up short on the "mind and body" tests or does not get a good enough mark on one of its health tests do you then give a refund of some sort?


It would depend on the individual circumstances, but in general, no. I do everything I possibly can to ensure any puppies I breed are healthy, of good temprement and get the best start in life they possibly can. I do not sell puppies for breeding or showing, I sell them (and I HATE The words sell and buy when relating to live animals!) as companions only. Now, they may have show or breeding _potential_ but it is just that, potential. There are no guarantess with living creatures. If a pup I bred from two parents had hip dysplacia, how do I know for sure it is not because the new owner has walked it for two hours a day from 12 weeks, or let it run up and own the stairs? If a pup I bred has a 'temprement' problem, hwo do I know it is not the result of bad handling or socialisation by the new owners?

That said, my prime concern would be for the pup/dog I bred, and I would probably do whatever it took to ensure the welfare of the animal at that time, which, if the person no longer wished to keep the dog, would involve me taking it back and offering some sort of financial 'compensation'.


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## garydogz

jackson said:


> It would depend on the individual circumstances, but in general, no. I do everything I possibly can to ensure any puppies I breed are healthy, of good temprement and get the best start in life they possibly can. I do not sell puppies for breeding or showing, I sell them (and I HATE The words sell and buy when relating to live animals!) as companions only. Now, they may have show or breeding _potential_ but it is just that, potential. There are no guarantess with living creatures. If a pup I bred from two parents had hip dysplacia, how do I know for sure it is not because the new owner has walked it for two hours a day from 12 weeks, or let it run up and own the stairs? If a pup I bred has a 'temprement' problem, hwo do I know it is not the result of bad handling or socialisation by the new owners?
> 
> That said, my prime concern would be for the pup/dog I bred, and I would probably do whatever it took to ensure the welfare of the animal at that time, which, if the person no longer wished to keep the dog, would involve me taking it back and offering some sort of financial 'compensation'.


OK. Thank you.


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## kazza1964

sallyanne said:


> Same here, and lets face it your breed and mine is hardly lacking in numbers,I'm sure if the buyer was not willing to accept the endorsement they would find another,probably a lot cheaper to do as they wish with including breeding then dumping them in rescue


Endorsements don't stop people breeding if they want to I know someone who breeds yorkies & sells them for the price of a kc pup & she gets it

Rescues aren't full of kc'd dogs they're full of none kc'd mostly staffies so adding to the none kc'd staffie population by endorsing pups who can still be bred from is as bad as taking them to the rescue yourself 
The only way you're not contributing to the problem is by having all your pups neutered


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## MelanieW34

Interesting thread, 

I cant see how it would do anything to stop BYB and PF's, as the type of people that sell dogs this way dont usually bother with either politely checking with the original breeder of their dog, or registering the pups when they're born? So the fact that they cant register their litter wouldnt worry them would it?

I dont agree withthe comment about better to rehome your dog yourself...in some cases yes, if you have someone you know already that you ar confident will take care of your dog well, all well and good. In any other situation whilst the breeder may not know the personality of your dog, they will have the contacts and network to be able to find a good home wuickly for the dog.


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## Guest

kazza1964 said:


> Endorsements don't stop people breeding if they want to I know someone who breeds yorkies & sells them for the price of a kc pup & she gets it
> 
> Rescues aren't full of kc'd dogs they're full of none kc'd mostly staffies so adding to the none kc'd staffie population by endorsing pups who can still be bred from is as bad as taking them to the rescue yourself
> The only way you're not contributing to the problem is by having all your pups neutered


The majority of SBT's in rescue are from BYB and PF's,
I will always endorse my pups,I always stay intouch with the owners I also ask them to consider spaying and castrating if they are to be pets and not shown or bred from.This has worked well.
If my contract was breached then I would seek legal advice/court action and hopefully get the dog back.This is also explained in the sales agreement.If they won't sign the agreement and object to the endorsements then they will not be a suitable home for one of my pups.I choose to breed them I choose who I think is suitable to own one.

I am always onhand 24/7 with support and advice,I went to visit one of the new owners as they were having difficulties with a puppy.This was solved in a matter of days. I also took back a dog we bred (paid to get him home) he had problems thanks to his owners,we sorted him out eventually and rehomed him with a close family friend for free.


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## garydogz

Speaking for myself I would not buy an endorsed puppy purely because I would not like the thought of someone else having some sort of hold over me and MY dog. Even if I did not intend to breed when I was buying you just cannot tell what the future holds. The future ain't what it used to be as the saying goes.

However if the seller makes it clear that the pup is for pet only and you sign up to that then it is your decision and you will have to live with it. Best not do it if you have any doubts at all.


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## Dundee

> If the pup comes up short on the "mind and body" tests or does not get a good enough mark on one of its health tests do you then give a refund of some sort?


I think what you have to remember is that only the very best, health tested dogs should be bred from. Not all dogs are good enough examples to breed from, inspite of the fact that they are perfectly healthy and make great pets.


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## Guest

garydogz said:


> Speaking for myself I would not buy an endorsed puppy purely because I would not like the thought of someone else having some sort of hold over me and MY dog. Even if I did not intend to breed when I was buying you just cannot tell what the future holds. The future ain't what it used to be as the saying goes.
> 
> However if the seller makes it clear that the pup is for pet only and you sign up to that then it is your decision and you will have to live with it. Best not do it if you have any doubts at all.


I and I'm sure other Breeders are the same would never sell a puppy as breeding or show material,purely because you can't guarentee how the puppy will turn out when it's mature.
All my pups are sold as pets and this is also stated in the contract.


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## garydogz

Dundee said:


> I think what you have to remember is that only the very best, health tested dogs should be bred from. Not all dogs are good enough examples to breed from, inspite of the fact that they are perfectly healthy and make great pets.


OK, I get that, but what if you are buying a pup from a breeder that says they have exactly those dogs that you refer to. They can still refuse you permission.


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## Dundee

> Speaking for myself I would not buy an endorsed puppy purely because I would not like the thought of someone else having some sort of hold over me and MY dog.


Unfortunately, depending on your breed, that pretty much guarantees that you will be buying an unhealth tested, low quality animals, as pretty much most reputable breeders of quality dogs WILL endorse their puppies. This means that those buying unendorsed puppies so they can breed from them later, are most likely going to breed from unhealth tested (and even if they health test, will have no health history for parents and grandparents), and poor quality.....


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## Dundee

> OK, I get that, but what if you are buying a pup from a breeder that says they have exactly those dogs that you refer to. They can still refuse you permission.


Well, in order to be effective, the KC require there be a signed contract by both puppy owner and breeder stating the conditions upon which the endorsements will be lifted, if at all. Typically, this will be on good health test results (breed dependant) and may also include some sort of showing success or confirmation assessment.

I think it's also worth noting that many breeders do this to ensure not just that only the best quality, health tested dogs are breed from, but that the puppies they breed do not in turn get used as breeding machines.


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## garydogz

Hey there Dundee. Having a blonde moment are we????


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## clueless

garydogz said:


> Speaking for myself I would not buy an endorsed puppy purely because I would not like the thought of someone else having some sort of hold over me and MY dog. Even if I did not intend to breed when I was buying you just cannot tell what the future holds. The future ain't what it used to be as the saying goes.
> 
> However if the seller makes it clear that the pup is for pet only and you sign up to that then it is your decision and you will have to live with it. Best not do it if you have any doubts at all.


Going by your statement "Even if I did not intend to breed when I was buying you just cannot tell what the future holds" A Breeder who endorses would not sell you a pup anyway if you stated that.
What do you mean by what thw future holds?? Short of money or something?
Someone who has a dog for a couple of years and decides to take a litter because of some silly reasons are adding to problems


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## Dundee

> Hey there Dundee. Having a blonde moment are we????


LOL - no - fighting with an ancient (very slow and useless keyboard) laptop while my own is in for repair.....


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## garydogz

Dundee said:


> Unfortunately, depending on your breed, that pretty much guarantees that you will be buying an unhealth tested, low quality animals, as pretty much most reputable breeders of quality dogs WILL endorse their puppies. This means that those buying unendorsed puppies so they can breed from them later, are most likely going to breed from unhealth tested (and even if they health test, will have no health history for parents and grandparents), and poor quality.....


What you are suggesting is some sort of cartel arrangement then. Only a select group control the breeding by using endorsements. Makes you wonder how those old gene puddles got so small doesn't it?


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## garydogz

clueless said:


> Going by your statement "Even if I did not intend to breed when I was buying you just cannot tell what the future holds" A Breeder who endorses would not sell you a pup anyway if you stated that.
> What do you mean by what thw future holds?? Short of money or something?
> Someone who has a dog for a couple of years and decides to take a litter because of some silly reasons are adding to problems


go away. this is not a personal thing


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## Dundee

> What do you mean by what thw future holds?? Short of money or something?


I think that is obviously a fear, but looking at it from a positive view.... Say someone buys a puppy as a pet.... but, along they way, get bitten by they bug and start showing/competing/(or whatever field), and realises they really have a lovely bitch or dog and would like to try breeding. If endorsed, then they have to get health tests done etc... and will have an experienced breeder onside.... all these things are actually plus points...

The vast majority of breeders endorse their pups to protect the pups they have bred as well as the future of the breed, not for any selfish reasons.


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## Dundee

> What you are suggesting is some sort of cartel arrangement then. Only a select group control the breeding by using endorsements. Makes you wonder how those old gene puddles got so small doesn't it?


Not at all... I'm talking about breeders wanting to protect the puppies they b breed from unscrupulous breeding practices. I'm not naive enough to believe that the breeder who does it for controlling reasons doesn't exist, but for most, it is simply a way of protecting their puppies as well as the breed in general. What you have to remember is that these breeders aren't simply producing puppies. They love their breed and know that the dogs they produce now... are effectively the breed's future... so great care must be taken in which dogs are bred from. First and foremost they must be health tested. Out of all the dogs bred each year... woefully few of them have been from health tested parents... and I mean proper breed specific health tests, not a health check by their vet.


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## clueless

garydogz said:


> go away. this is not a personal thing


LOL Never said it was. So if someone did not want to breed, bought a pup as a pet be upset if the pup was endorsed or not? It does not mean that person is not the owner etc...


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## garydogz

Dundee said:


> I think that is obviously a fear, but looking at it from a positive view.... Say someone buys a puppy as a pet.... but, along they way, get bitten by they bug and start showing/competing/(or whatever field), and realises they really have a lovely bitch or dog and would like to try breeding. If endorsed, then they have to get health tests done etc... and will have an experienced breeder onside.... all these things are actually plus points...
> 
> The vast majority of breeders endorse their pups to protect the pups they have bred as well as the future of the breed, not for any selfish reasons.


Did it again!!!!
Fair enough and I do understand (I think, anyway) what your aims are with this system. In the "glass half full" way it is perfectly reasonable in its intentions. In the "glass half empty" way it is wide open to abuse.
My post was, however, purely about how I would personally feel about buying an endorsed puppy. Can you imagine someone telling you that your dog, obviously the best in the world, is not good enough? Especially if that person was the one who sold it to you in the first place.


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## garydogz

garydogz said:


> Speaking for myself I would not buy an endorsed puppy purely because I would not like the thought of someone else having some sort of hold over me and MY dog. Even if I did not intend to breed when I was buying you just cannot tell what the future holds. The future ain't what it used to be as the saying goes.
> 
> However if the seller makes it clear that the pup is for pet only and you sign up to that then it is your decision and you will have to live with it. Best not do it if you have any doubts at all.


I would refer the honourable gentleman to an earlier reply


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## Dundee

I agree it could be upsetting being told that your dog isn't good enough.. I would hope no one would do it that way... But... you do bring up an interesting point, and that is that good breeding rarely goes alongside sentimentality. What I mean is that a good breeder needs to take a step back and be able to say that their dog is not suitable to breed from regardless of how much they love him.

A point to demonstrate this... I have a wonderful male.... a pedigree that reads like a who's who of working labradors.... over 35 FTCH, sired by one of the top producers of FTCH around today, and half brother to no less than 4 FTCH (only around half a dozen dogs a year are made up to FTCH). Have I considered breeding from him? With a pedigree like that it would be stupid not to.. but.... I have to be realistic and I know that, however much I adore him (and I do), there are other dogs from similar lines that are far better examples, and better dogs to use for breeding. He is now neutered and will never sire a litter - but he is still much loved by me and my family and none the less for not being breeding quality.

Just to add .... in working labs, it is not usual to endorse puppies and I have never actually bought an endorsed puppy, nor will I be endorsing any. From a personal point of view, I will vet all homes (and the majority will be likely to be experienced working homes) and feel that I have to trust my judgement that the puppies will be going to homes where if they decide to breed, they will do so properly... That's just me... but I also entirely support the use of endorsements too.


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## kazza1964

I made a point of buying non endorsed pups this time as 9 years ago I bought a bitch & a dog Akita not related & not intended to breed they lived together happily for 3 years & then she had a season we missed & we found out she was pregnant a week before the pups were born 

she had 3 pups & when we sold them one of the new owners wanted kc so he paid & we sent them off they came back that our dog was endorsed not the bitch & we never knew when we bought him, I phoned the breeder & she wanted £100 to take the endorsement off mad's not the word for how I was I couldn't believe she had a say in a dog that I had loved, cared for & fed for 3 1/2 years I got in the car & drove for 3 hours & got a signed letter from her to take the endorsement off & no I didn't pay the £100 she saw how mad I was & never mentioned it!


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## clueless

kazza1964 said:


> I made a point of buying non endorsed pups this time as 9 years ago I bought a bitch & a dog Akita not related & not intended to breed they lived together happily for 3 years & then she had a season we missed & we found out she was pregnant a week before the pups were born
> 
> she had 3 pups & when we sold them one of the new owners wanted kc so he paid & we sent them off they came back that our dog was endorsed not the bitch & we never knew when we bought him, I phoned the breeder & she wanted £100 to take the endorsement off mad's not the word for how I was I couldn't believe she had a say in a dog that I had loved, cared for & fed for 3 1/2 years I got in the car & drove for 3 hours & got a signed letter from her to take the endorsement off & no I didn't pay the £100 she saw how mad I was & never mentioned it!


You could have reported her to the KC as you have to sign to say you understand the pup is endorsed and the reasons why it would be lifted ( if any). The KC would have been in your favour and not the breeder and the litter would have gotr registered


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## Dundee

Kazza - I know these breeders exist... I said as much in another post... thankfully they are a minority... and I wish they could be named and shamed

However, the unscrupulous practice of charging to lift endorsements aside, if this was an accidental mating... did you have the relevant health tests done? And if you had no intention of breeding, then why would you need to buy a puppy without endorsements?

Clueless is right... unless there was a contract saying you understood the endorsements, the KC would not have upheld them.

And I would tend to advise against using lack of endorsments as a criteria for buying a puppy... as, in practice, it is less likely the unendorsed puppies have been health tested and are from quality stock.


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## garydogz

Dundee said:


> I agree it could be upsetting being told that your dog isn't good enough.. I would hope no one would do it that way... But... you do bring up an interesting point, and that is that good breeding rarely goes alongside sentimentality. What I mean is that a good breeder needs to take a step back and be able to say that their dog is not suitable to breed from regardless of how much they love him.
> 
> A point to demonstrate this... I have a wonderful male.... a pedigree that reads like a who's who of working labradors.... over 35 FTCH, sired by one of the top producers of FTCH around today, and half brother to no less than 4 FTCH (only around half a dozen dogs a year are made up to FTCH). Have I considered breeding from him? With a pedigree like that it would be stupid not to.. but.... I have to be realistic and I know that, however much I adore him (and I do), there are other dogs from similar lines that are far better examples, and better dogs to use for breeding. He is now neutered and will never sire a litter - but he is still much loved by me and my family and none the less for not being breeding quality.
> 
> Just to add .... in working labs, it is not usual to endorse puppies and I have never actually bought an endorsed puppy, nor will I be endorsing any. From a personal point of view, I will vet all homes (and the majority will be likely to be experienced working homes) and feel that I have to trust my judgement that the puppies will be going to homes where if they decide to breed, they will do so properly... That's just me... but I also entirely support the use of endorsements too.


WHAT SORT OF ANSWER IS THAT!!!!!!!!!
Read it four times and still do not know what to think. You have completely discombobulated me. Still do not agree about the endorsement thing but you............well..........why can't you just row??? Make things so much easier.
I wish you all the best with your judgements. If you can't trust yourself then there is not much left is there.
Early start so going now. Goodnight.


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## kazza1964

Dundee said:


> Kazza - I know these breeders exist... I said as much in another post... thankfully they are a minority... and I wish they could be named and shamed
> 
> However, the unscrupulous practice of charging to lift endorsements aside, if this was an accidental mating... did you have the relevant health tests done? And if you had no intention of breeding, then why would you need to buy a puppy without endorsements?
> 
> Clueless is right... unless there was a contract saying you understood the endorsements, the KC would not have upheld them.
> 
> And I would tend to advise against using lack of endorsments as a criteria for buying a puppy... as, in practice, it is less likely the unendorsed puppies have been health tested and are from quality stock.


If you look back I said I bought puppies without endorsements this time, when I bought the Akitas I didn't know there were endorsements always had mongrels before then 
What do you mean "if" this was an accidental mating I said so didn't I? so why would I have had health checks done

Every time someone posts on here about breeding someone has to go on about health checks change the record its boring


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## Dundee

> so why would I have had health checks done


Because without them the breeder would be justified in not removing the endorsements... THere's nothing to stop you having health tests done after the event. What would have been so wrong about selling these pups without KC registration... and as I said, if you didn't have a contract to say you understood the endorsements the KC would not have upheld them. No need for a three hour drive.....


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## Sgurr

Yes, I've read through (most) of the posts and now my own opinion.
I breed health-checked ESS, genetically clear both genes for 3 serious conditions and from hip scored eyechecked sire and dam. And I publish the results - Sgurr - English Springer Spaniels - Welcome

No I do not endorse. I ask prospective buyers to very seriously consider before they either neuter or breed from a genetically clear ESS pup - only about 50 registered per year, say 100 max and 15 000 ESS pups KC registered per year. and about as many not KC reg.

If I make a mistake and the new owner does Back Yard Breeding then at least the pups form my pups will not be affected either. So at least some healthy genes go into the stinking pool. But I take as much care as I can in selecting new owners and they need to have the choice I had to start breeding or not.

What we need is education on all levels of the dog world about the importance of health checks. If we can get the buyers aware then the BYBs will go out of business and the PFs will lose a lot of their profit margins - and the conditions breeding stock are kept in are subject to the Animal Welfare Act 2006 - enforcement not endorsement.

Sgurrr


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## tashi

closed for moderating


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