# Blended Veggies & Meat for the BARF Diet (WARNING GORY PICS!)



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I did these as two threads on another forum and thought I'd combine them on here (someone asked on another thread for the meaty bit, if you are squeamish, please do not scroll down!!!!), it shows the bits I feed my dogs, and what I do to prepare it:

I've been meaning to do this for a while, as I get asked, and see people post asking the question about what blended veg to feed, how much to feed etc. So whilst preparing a batch of veggies over the last day, I've even taken photos, to help people see clearly how I go about it, and hopefully other barf/raw feeders will add in their bits, for anyone who searches for info about it on the forum.

First up is the selection of vegetables, which can be anything really, with a mix across the range of root, leaf and pulse. I was outside doing this yesterday as it was warm enough, and Indie and Tau got the occasional treats chucked their way. The only couple of things to avoid are broccolli and onions, although mine do occasionally get bits of broccolli that are left over, I don't buy it specifically to put in their veg mix.










Carrots are a useful source of vitamins A, B1, B6, C and K. 
Cabbage (dark green like savoy) are a useful source of vitamins B1, Folate and C, along with Sulphur.
Swede is a useful source of vitamins B1, B6, Folate and C.
Parsnips are a useful source of vitamins B1, B6, Folate, C, along with Potassium and Phosphorus.
Green beans are a useful source of vitamins A, Folate and C.

Other things I put in there are:

Cauliflower is a useful source of vitamins B1, B6, C and K, along with Potassium.
Spinach is a useful source of vitamins A, B6, Folate, C and K, along with Calcium, Iron, Phosphorus, and Magnesium.
Sweet Potato is a useful source of vitamins A, B1, B6, C and E, along with Potassium.
Tomato is a useful source of vitamins A, B6 and C.

I do sometimes put apple, banana or pear into their veg mix, and are good sources of vitamin C, B6 and C, along with Potassium and Magnesium.

I chop them all up and put them into one of those hessian bags ready to blend:










The nuts are in there because they have a good mix of vitamins and minerals, so I put a good size handful in there (along with a couple of cloves of garlic):










Almonds - B vitamins, E / Calcium, Copper, Iron, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosophorus and Zinc
Brazils - B1, B6 / Calcium, Copper, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur, Selenium and Zinc
Cashews - B1, B6 / Copper, Iron, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur, Selenium and Zinc
Hazelnuts - B1, B6 / Calcium, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Zinc
Peanuts - B1, B6, Folate and Niacin / Copper, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Zinc
Pecans - B1 / Copper, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Zinc
Walnuts - B6 / Copper, Magnesium and Phosphorus

Garlic has two 'medicinal' ingredients, Allicin and Diallyl Sulphides. Allicin is active once garlic is chopped or crushed, and is linked to anti biotic and anti fungal properties. Diallyl Sulphides is linked to improving blood and circulation, again, it is more effective when chopped/crushed.

The other things that go into their food are one capful of apple cider vinegar, and a level teaspoon of turmeric. Apple cider vinegar is linked to healthy bones, and helps fight against osteoperosis, containing manganese, magnesium, phosphorus, calcium and silicon. It is also an anti-cancer agent containing beta carotene and phytochemicals that help in cancer prevention. Turmeric has been linked to anti inflammatory, anti bacterial, and liver and heart protecting effects. It is used to used to ease joint pain, and inflammation associated with arthritis, and is a good source of antioxidants.










Finally, they also get a couple of tablespoons of oil mixed in, in this case, I've reserved oil that I used to make a confit previously, so it's got bits of meat in there, yum!!










So this is it, all in a mixing bowl…










And once it's all blended, and mixed in, I use left over plastic take away tubs, and freeze it. Then I cut off approx one quarter to mix in with their breakfast, and leave it to defrost while I take the girls on their morning walk.










So what do these vitamins do?

Vitamin A - vision, bone growth, reproduction and health of skin, also acts as an antioxidant. 
Vitamin B1 - also known as thiamin, helps convert carbohydrates and fats into energy. Cannot be stored in the body, but once absorbed, it is concentrated in muscle tissue.
Vitamin B2 - also known as riboflavin, necessary for the release of energy from carbohydrates, and for normal growth and development. 
Niacin - necessary for production and breakdown of glucose, fats and amino acids, development, maintenance and function of the skin, intestine and stomach, as well as the nervous system, and in manufacturing dna.
Pantothenic acid - a b-complex vitamin, also known as B5, helps break down proteins, and their amino acids, fats and carbohydrates enabling the production of energy. 
B6 - also known as pyridoxine, involved in the production and digestion of amino acids, and helps the body manufacture the hormone insulin. It is involved with anti bodies that fight infection, and certain chemicals that send messages between nerve cells, as well as in the production of histamine.
Vitamin B12 - also known as cyanocobalamin or cobalamin, I sreleased from food in the stomach, and has to bind with a protein called intrinsic factor to be able to be absorbed by the body. It is necessary for normal growth and development.
Biotin - a b-complex vitamin, essential for converting proteins, carbohydrates and fats into forms the body can use.
Folate - another b-complex vitamins, plays a vital role in the substance that makes up our genes, working with vitamin B12 to form haemoglobin, and converting the amino acid homocysteine to methionine.
Vitamin C - also known as ascorbic acid, is the least stable of vitamins and destroyed by processing, essential for the formation of collagen, an important structural protein that strengthens bones and blood vessels.
Vitamin D - a fat soluble vitamin that has an essential role in the absorbption and use of calcium. 
Vitamin E - one of natures most effective antioxidants, and protects the body against free radicals.
Vitamin K - an essential component in the body's normal blood clotting process.

Calcium - the main mineral present in bones and teeth.
Magnesium - plays a vital role in the formation of bones, teeth, and with the minerals calcium, sodium and potassium, is involved in transmitting nerve signals.
Phosphorus - essential for bones and teeth.
Potassium - together with sodium and chloride potassium is involved in controlling the amount of water and maintaining the correct acid-alkali balance in the body.
Sodium - vital for controlling the amount of water in the body, maintaining normal pH of blood, transmitting nerve signals and helping in muscular contraction.
Sulphur - plays a key role in the manufacture of amino acids and in the conversion of carbohydrates to a form that the body can use.
Chromium - works with insulin to help bind it to it's receptors.
Copper - plays a key role in several body function, including production of pigment in skin, hair and eyes, production of healthy bones, teeth and heart, and the protection of body cells from chemical damage.
Iodine - associated with thyroid function.
Iron - an essential mineral in all cells, although only needed in small quantities, is a component of haemoglobin, the oxygen carrying protein in red blood cells.
Selenium - is an antioxidant and part of an enzyme that protects cells from the damaging effects of free radicals.
Zinc - needed in minute amounts, essential for the breakdown of carbohydrates, fats and proteins, in normal cell division, growth and repair.

Hope that helps explain the role of the veggies, and in combination with the meat and offal, it provides an important role I feel in a BARF diet.

*The Meat Part (LAST WARNING, DO NOT SCROLL DOWN IF YOU DON'T LIKE SEEING RAW MEAT PREPARED)*

Raw feeding isn't for everyone, but following on from the veggie bit I did a while back, I thought I'd do the equivalent post for meat, and try and explain a bit about what I include in their diet, and why. I've included photographs so people can see what the meats look like, not everyone has seen a beast (beef) heart for example, and some might not know the easiest way to take apart a lamb rib cage, so if you're squeamish, please be aware I've included photographs giving examples of these sorts of things.

I have only put in a bit of information about tripe from a useful tripe website, as I have included a link at the end, where you can read in full about the nutritional value of each of the raw meats, and the link also contains a very useful table showing how the vitamins and minerals are used.

First up is tripe, which mine get for breakfast approximately five times a week.

Green Tripe (not the bleached white stuff from the butchers)









Tripe is the stomach of ruminating animals. These animals (i.e. cattle, buffalo, sheep, deer, goats, antelope, etc.) are classified as being four-footed, hooved, cud chewing mamals with a stomach that consists of four chambers. The four chambers of such a stomach are known as the rumen, reticulum, omasum and the abomasum. The food the animal eats (i.e. grass, hay) is swallowed unchewed and passes into the rumen and reticulum where it is then regurgitated, chewed and mixed with saliva. It is again swallowed and then passed through the reticulum and omasum into the abomasum, where it is then further broken down by the gastric juices, amino acids and other digestive enzymes.

In an analysis of a sample of green tripe by a Woodson-Tenant Lab in Atlanta, Georgia, it was discovered that the calciumhosphorous ratio is 1:1, the overall pH is on the acidic side which is better for digestion, protein is 15.1, fat 11.7 and it contained the essential fatty acids, Linoleic and Linolenic, in their recommended proportions. Also discovered, was the presence of Lactic Acid Bacteria. Lactic Acid Bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus, is the good intestinal bacteria. It is the main ingredient in probiotics.

The tripe I get comes in 2lb bags, which I split between my two for breakfast, and mix in their blended veggies.

Raw Heart (Lamb or Beast (Beef))

I buy a mix of beast and lambs hearts, and chop it up and bag in portion sizes. They either get it as a meal on it's own, or I use it over a couple of days adding bits in to their other food. The meat has a texture like steak, and it doesn't smell like liver, kidneys or other offal.

A whole heart









This shows the texture of the meat









And here it is bagged up and frozen









Raw Lamb Bones

I get free bones from my local butchers, and they usually come supplied as whole rib cages. If you're squeamish, and don't like seeing how to take apart a carcass, don't scroll down.










You will need a good pair of poultry shears and a sharp, small knife to make it easy to take the carcasses apart, first off, use the poultry shears to cut along the bottom of the ribs, about 2-3 inches in width. 









From the back of the rib cage, where the ribs are longest, count two or three ribs in (depending on the size, for larger count three ribs in) and slide a knife down inbetween the third and fourth rib, making sure you cut right down to the backbone. Hold down the other rib cage from inside, and pull the three ribs back from the carcass, they should dislocate and tear away fairly easily. Do the same for the other side, although it isn't as easy without having the full rib cage to pull against, it shouldn't be too difficult. 









Using the sharp knife, place the lamb bones resting upright on the ribs that are left, with the neck in your left hand, and cut down in front of the first dorsal bone on the rib cage. Then push down hard so that the neck part separates from the back, cut around the sides and base to separate any muscle tissue left on there, and pull apart. 









From one rib cage you should end up with nice neat pieces like this.









I would feed the neck/back parts each as one meal, and depending on the size fatty rib cage bottom, possibly include the ribs broken away as one meal - so out of that one rib cage there should be enough for four meals as follows - neck; back with small ribs; fatty rib cage with three ribs x 2

I use bones mainly for their evening meal, which they get at around 5pm, and they absolutely love them!!

The chicken they get is either chicken carcasses stripped of most of the meat, one and a half carcasses, which has the breast and about half of the backbones is enough for one meal; or else I get chicken wings, the last two digits, six of which make enough for one meal. Fortunately I don't have to chop chicken up, but do usually have to pay for it, and depending on whether I get it from the butchers or another supplier, there is more meat on the carcasses, and so the price varies between approx £2.50 to £5 for a large box.

Liver

I use lambs liver, and along with tinned fish, this is the only meat I don't feed raw. Liver can be high in vitamin A, and I have found in the past it can make mine loose, and so I cook the liver, either in water, or in goats milk. They still absolutely love it, and it has good nutritional value for them.









Tubbed up and ready to freeze, one tub is fine split between two, and if needs be, I'll add a bit of something else if I think it isn't quite enough









I also feed mine tinned fish in tomato sauce, or oil, simply adding a 125g tin shared between the two, once or twice a week. You can feed fish raw, but I have found with my two that it doesn't always suit them, and they end up bringing it back up half the time.

I also give them lambs kidneys, which I have found fine to feed raw, and I add them as part of a meal, usually with something like beast heart.

They get a whole raw egg, once or twice a week, shell and all, and they also get any shells left over from cooking.

I don't use pork bones, because you need to be sure of the source so that they are free from internal parasites. Nor do I feed many beef bones, just the occasional marrow bone as a treat for half an hour or so, because they are much more dense, and wear the teeth down that much quicker.

This link saves me quite a bit of typing, and gives the nutritional values for a variety of raw meats, and shows the vitamins and minerals they provide, as well as telling you how they are used.

Useful articles about the nutritional value of raw meats

That's how I use the meat part of the BARF diet, I know others might do it differently, but after feeding my two from pups, and making a few additions and changes along the way, I'm happy with the variety and amounts they get and am glad I don't feel the need to use any fillers. As before, if anyone wants a copy of the BARF sheet I use, please feel free to pm me and ask, it's drawn up from what I've read and experienced. It would be good if others who feed can add bits about their experiences as well, and any thing they do differently.

Typical menu for my Labradors:

For adult Labs:

Monday
Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses & 125g tinned sardines

Tuesday
Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses

Wednesday
Breakfast - 250-400g chicken carcasses, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 250g liver cooked in goats milk, 150g chicken carcasses

Thursday
Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses

Friday
Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses

Saturday
Breakfast - 250-400g chicken carcasses, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 250g beef/lambs heart

Sunday
Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses

Where ever I use chicken carcasses, I interchange with lamb bones as well. I also give other food regularly, such as a whole raw egg, cottage cheese, natural yoghurt, and any appropriate left overs. Mine aren't wheat intolerant, so anything like the odd bit of stale bread, left over pasta etc gets thrown their way, not that there's much in my house!


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Fantastic post - really helpful. I've been experimenting with raw for the past year and it's nice to see exactly what others do.

With the liver I put it in the microwave for a few minutes. It goes quite leathery but can be cut into small chunks and be used as a training aid.

We use chicken carcasses and using the chicken shears we cut it into manageable sized peices as you have done with the ribs.

Can't wait to go and make a big batch of veg now! :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The majority of bones and meat my two get are chicken carcasses, they come ready prepared as they're from a factory that strips the meat from the carcasses, and sell the wing tips and carcasses off cheaply. I get 15kg boxes for £2.50. I'm happy to edit and show the easy way to take apart a chicken if people would find that useful? I reserve the meaty parts for me to use, and the dogs get the boney parts (wing tips, breast bone and back).


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

:thumbup: Fab post, think my lot will be de-camping to yours if they saw this!!!!! :lol:


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I've just been to the local butchers and asked what I could have for the dogs - he gave me an ox heart. :thumbup: I'm so glad that you have done this thread as I would have been nervous of dealing with a whole heart before.

I have to say my 10 yro son can't wait to help me cut it up. A meal and science lesson all in one :thumbup:


I would like to see how you deal with chicken carcasses - it will reasure me that I'm doing it right (or not as the case may be).


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Great post. There could be a couple of other things fish, eggs stuff like that but good beginners guide that people can modify if need be


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## HeyMeow (May 19, 2010)

Thank you very much for this post. I think my dogs would very much love to live with you  They are both food crazy and after changing to raw feeding, I have seen a complete change in both health and happiness


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Great post. There could be a couple of other things fish, eggs stuff like that but good beginners guide that people can modify if need be


Added a 'menu' to cover that, it was just for the veggies and meat bit really, but I don't mind making it so that it covers everything I feed, and great to have input from anyone else as well 

I'll dismember a chicken and take pics to add when I get chance, it's really easy, most of the bones just pop out of the sockets.


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## Ducky (Nov 23, 2008)

interesting post. i dont feed raw, but i might in the future. (my dad doesnt agree with it really, dont ask lol)

out of interest though, why do you not include broccoli?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It is good for them but in high enough doses it's toxic. At least so google says Buster doesn't get vegetables


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Great post, really great info and gives an ides of portion mixes :thumbup:


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I would like to swap over one day but really struggle for time at the moment (not that that would stop me once decide to) but severly lacking in freezer space. Its a really interesting thread tho thank you.

Seems like once you get going there is no looking back but I do have a couple of questions..

1. What do people do if you have to go away, i.e. maybe every six weeks or so my dogs will go to my friends if away - suppose you can prepare packs.

2. How long does it take you to swap over ? I do feed mine dry but sometimes come home with a nice treat from somewhere to mix in, bit of liver, blade of lamb (seems to have some ribs in it) which hack up, morrisons do some kind of lamb bones whilst not meaty they love, chicken wings, dollop of raw mincemeat etc. They love their raw veg too.

One of mine is incredibly greedy tho, he can't have big marrowbones as he yams at them so much even after half an hour it seems to really make him want the loo alot but very constipated; in the past has had raw 'pet mince' pre packaged from pets at home and its gone straight thru him (not sure how processed it is?). He also will attempt to swallow anything meaty and will 'inhale' meaty bony bits (i.e. swallow with minimal chewing) sometimes and then bring them up again... or other times is sick in the morning and (sorry folks) i find bits of bone in it.

So really just wondering how you can do it whilst avoiding tummy issues ??


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

For the broccolli question, it (apparently) can inhibit thryroid function, for a dog that has a problem, it can exacerbate this, otherwise it is fine in small doses, the same as onions really.

For the other questions:

1) I've done raw feeding when away, you can take chopped veggies, blend a portion fresh if you need to, and obviously buy chicken portions. I've also fed complete food for a couple of days where it's not really worth the hassle of carrying blender and chopped veg with me.

2) it takes about a week to swap over, if you try your dog with raw chicken and find it's ok, then you can pretty much swap over completely within a week or two.

Beef bones can be quite rich and make them loose, I always say chicken (or turkey) are the best introductory foods to raw, they are also the best nutritionally, having a wide range of vitamins and minerals, and also omega 3. They aren't dense, so won't wear teeth down quickly, and are easy to bash up so your dog can't swallow large bones whole. The main part of the diet for my two is tripe and chicken bones. They rarely, if ever, get beef bones, and I don't bother with pork, because I don't have a supplier that I can be sure it is free from internal parasites that may be passed on. 

If you're looking at swapping a dog over, you need to try them with chicken bones a few times. If they are ok, then you can pretty much swap over. You may struggle to get dogs that aren't used to blended veggies eating them without being mixed in with anything else, so mix something like yoghurt, or a spoonful of sardines in tomato sauce to make them more appetising.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Could this be made into a sticky please - I've found it so useful already.


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## ollie06 (Mar 9, 2010)

This is brillant ive been raw feeding for over 2 years now but still learning all the time.:thumbup:


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Has anybody tried the Natural Instincts range of complete frozen barf diets? I looked at their website and visited them at Southern Counties show yesterday.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Great thread sleeping lion.

As you guys probably know, I dont feed veggie, but everything else is very similar in that I also feed whole pieces of meat (not ground) etc. It is interesting to see all the vitamins and minerals contained in each item of veg etc and what they all do!  If I wasn't able to feed such a varied diet to maggie to ensure she gets all the nutrients, vitamins and minerals she needs with a meat, bones and offal diet, I would definitely be tempted to add veggie to help add the items she might be missing out on.

...I thought this might be useful to everyone re the nutritional breakdowns of different foods, especially meat & fish:

I often use this US site to look up nutritional content of foods which is quite handy - you can search by specific raw food item and it provides a complete nutritional breakdown of vitamins/minerals etc: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I also have a list created from here with info on where you can find each of the following Nutrients/Vitamins/Minerals at a glance in common raw feeding items:
*Vitamin A (Retinol):* chicken, pork, egg, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardines, liver, kidney, brain, tuna
*Vitamin B1 (Thiamin):* liver, rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin):* liver, heart, kidney, rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Vitamin B3 (Niacin):* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine, tuna
*Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic acid):* liver, heart, kidney, rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine):* liver, heart, kidney, rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Vitamin B9 (Folic Acid):* liver, rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Vitamin B12 (cobalt/choline):* liver, heart, kidney, rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Vitamin C:* liver, kidney, heart, fish
*Vitamin D:* egg, sardine, liver, kidney, salmon, tuna
*Vitamin E:* ostrich, buffalo, egg, halibut, haddock, sardine, kidney, liver, brain
*Vitamin K:* egg, halibut, haddock, sardine, liver
*Calcium:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Chlorine:* egg, salmon, tuna
*Copper:* chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Iodine:* salmon, haddock, seafood, egg
*Iron:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Magnesium:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Manganese:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, haddock, halibut, sardine
*Phosphorus:* rabbit, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Potassium:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Selenium:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine
*Zinc:* rabbit, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, ostrich, buffalo, egg, beef, salmon, halibut, haddock, sardine


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

This is also quite a cool site with ideas for what to feed and pictures of each of the pieces - often with the preparation and/or the dogs eating it!!! 

Raw Fed Dogs

And here is one with LOADS of great info on it around how to raw feed: http://rawlearning.com/

Here is a nice little intro to switching to raw feeding: Switching to Raw

And this is a nice little guide with some answers to some typical questions with info on how, when, where and what to feed etc: Practical Answers to Practical Questions About Raw


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## samsmummy (Apr 27, 2010)

Yes I use Natural Instinct and am their biggest fan. Their website Natural Instinct - High Quality Natural Dog Food is very good and they are so nice on the phone. My dogs have done fantastically on it. My lab is an old rescue who had lots of problems and I swear he's a different dog now. I would recommend it without hesitation.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

katiefranke said:


> *Vitamin E:* ostrich, buffalo, egg, halibut, haddock, sardine, kidney, liver, brain[


Great list Katiefranke - I use that nutritional dat lab site myself very frequently - such a great resource. The only shame from the point of cat owners is that they don't include taurine in their analyses.

Re Vitamin E. While it is true that you can find levels of it in the meats you listed, the purest form is still found in germ oils, such as wheatgerm oil, and grass (it is the only plant oil I use for my cats' food but since this is about dogs I am not sure whether that is of any help...).


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> Great list Katiefranke - I use that nutritional dat lab site myself very frequently - such a great resource. The only shame from the point of cat owners is that they don't include taurine in their analyses.


yep completely agree! I have been trying to find analyses of taurine in a similar form to above for ages! so if you have any info/find any info, please share with me by PM or if you post in the cat section 

interesting info on the Vit E.


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

What a great thread, and thanks to everyone for putting so much time and effort into it. 

I have searched various forums but this is the frst time I have seen a really detailed explaination of how to prepare, and what to include in a raw diet. It is just so helpful.

I have toyed with putting my pup (16weeks) on raw but have been worried about how he would cope with bones. He used to hoover up his food, but that seems to be easing now, and I am concerned that he would be too 'greedy' with bones

Are bones essential?? I was thinking of using a mix of the frozen meat packs available at [email protected] which I believe has bones minced up in it so would provide some of the necessary calcium, and meat from the butchers. Would that be ok??

I see you don't mush up the fruit and veg, just chop it into small pieces. I have read elsewhere that veggies should be pulped because otherwise the dog is unable to obtain and absorb all the nutrients from it, and that in many cases the veg will just pass straight through the system undigested. I take it that in your experience this is not necessary?

Finally, How do you know how much meat/veg to give to ensure that you are giving enough protein etc. My dog weighs approx 7kg at the moment and is on 3 meals of kibble a day, so what quantities of meat and veg would be right for him?

Sorry for all the questions!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Hi there, I have tried to answer you questions for you as best I can below 



ploddingon said:


> I have toyed with putting my pup (16weeks) on raw but have been worried about how he would cope with bones. He used to hoover up his food, but that seems to be easing now, and I am concerned that he would be too 'greedy' with bones
> 
> *My own pup was like this too - literally inhaling her biscuits before - but when we put her on raw she actually took AGES the first few times she had bone-in meat (we started her on chicken rib, breast & wing quarters and chicken thigh & leg quarters). We always supervise her eating even now and sometimes if I am worried for any reason I just hold the food for her while she eats it carefully. They soon learn *
> 
> ...


Hope all that helps - I would strongly recommend taking a look at the links in my signature to give you a better idea about raw feeding - especially the practical questions etc links at the bottom, as they give a really good overview of the basics of what, when, how much, where etc too feed.

Good luck! and ask away with any more questions! :thumbup:


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## julianne (May 3, 2009)

A bit i know about taurine .My lad has a bad heart so i need to know taurine levels.

Taurine Content of Selected Foods.

(Mg/Kg ) 

Item Uncooked (cooked) 
Beef muscle 362 ( 60 )
Beef liver 192 ( 73 ) 
Beef kidney 225 ( 76 ) 
Lamb muscle 473 ( 126 ) 
Lamb kidney 239 ( 51 )
Pork muscle 496 (118 ) 
Pork liver 169 ( 43 ) 
Chicken muscle 337 ( 82 ) 
Cod 314 (161) 
Oysters 698 ( 89) 
Clams 2400 (446)


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Upping this as I think it's excellent


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

up........................................


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

So this is the topic I've been told about and eagerly waiting for!

What an absolutely fantastic post! This is going to help us immensely - along with all the other help and advice we've had from lots and lots of fantastic people in this great forum!

Surely this should be 'Stickyfied'?!

:thumbup:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

SlingDash said:


> So this is the topic I've been told about and eagerly waiting for!
> 
> What an absolutely fantastic post! This is going to help us immensely - along with all the other help and advice we've had from lots and lots of fantastic people in this great forum!
> 
> ...


Ive added it into the other raw feeding sticky as a link for the mo and I am asking if we can get it inserted in there properly too...


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## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

I saved this post in my bookmarks, but agree, it could be done with being a stickie, loads of really valuable info in it.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

ploddingon said:


> I saved this post in my bookmarks, but agree, it could be done with being a stickie, loads of really valuable info in it.


Its in the other raw feeding sticky at the top. As above im seeing if I can get it combined, but need a way to insert it into the other one.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I will, when I get round to it, do a how to cut up a chicken and get the most of it, type post. Perhaps one of the mods/admin can copy the first post and add it into Katiefrankie's sticky post?

Someone asked above how much fruit and veg to give, I give 40g frozen veg in with tripe on a morning, but I don't necessarily give them this every morning. Dogs are opportunistic feeders, so the fruit and veg bit to me (with the other additives) gives them an extra bit to their diet if you like, to hopefully gain valuable vitamins and minerals. I know my two recognise and will eat fruit or veg if they find it growing, they go brambling, and browsing for various other berries and fruits in the autumn, they love it!


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## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

The veg, Apple cider vinegar and Turmeric is a great idea and i might start doing that. Mine already have a fruit salad a couple of times a week which has apples, melon, bananas and pears in so i think they would love the extra veg in their meals

Im not sure i could do the meat part, if my x step dad was still with us he would as hes a butcher so used to handling meat like that.

How about pasta??? lots of people tell me its good and i should give some to mine once a week with their meal???


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I will, when I get round to it, do a how to cut up a chicken and get the most of it, type post. Perhaps one of the mods/admin can copy the first post and add it into Katiefrankie's sticky post?


Ok Ive pasted your main first post with all the piccies etc directly into the sticky raw thread in the initial series of 'raw feeding' posts. Hope thats ok - I have referenced you ? I have also linked directly to this thread, so people can read the full conversations and following info etc... 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html


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## TANDYSCO (Dec 7, 2010)

Hi,
I was really interested in reading your detailed raw diet info and as a german shepherd owner with 2 dogs both with health issues I am keen to convert. I have ordered the Ian Billinghurst book on the subject. Can I ask if you weigh the veg/fruit or do you simply judge your weight.......am assuming from what you said that you don't need to be too exact. As for the raw meat, have you heard of "Duck" natures best pre frozen bread slices of raw meat/tripe and have you ever tried. Looks pretty convenient but not sure of suitability. One of my shepherds has Atopia the other has just had an arthroscopy for his elbow dysplasia at 10mnths of age! Poor guy!
You mention e-mail and wonder if you would send me anything that may help. [email protected]


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Ian,

I don't weigh their meals as such, but feed by eye, and give them an approximate ratio of fresh food. I'll email you over my rough barf guide, it's a b*gga about your boy with ED, I'm not sure about atopia and what how this condition preents itself, but if you have any info I can look up for you about any raw feeding that is beneficial or that may aggravate his condition??


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## Feefles (Mar 30, 2011)

Hi brilliant post!! I was just wondering tho do u cook the veg before u blend it?? Also I have been giving my 1yo boxer tripe every morning for a hole now and nibble at night, but his morning gave him lamb mice with a raw egg and he has had the runs like water!!! My other 4th boxer is fine tho but she is just fed raw, prepack dog food like beef mince and heart, minced lamb, minced rabbit, minced everything basically and she was fine with it, do u think my 1yo is just not used to it or should I stop feeding him raw?? I have been cooking the veg up til now but should it be raw? Thanks for ur help


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Coo - makes your mouth water, lol. Well at least it would the dogs!


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## Treacle1 (Dec 28, 2011)

I am so very grateful to you for this post. I'm barf feeding my spaniel/poodle cross and really struggling with all the conflicting information in the books.
Do you give your dogs added vitamins and minerals? Ian Billinghurst (Give your dog a bone) insists it's essential you add them but Tom Lonsdale tells you that you can make your dog ill by giving them. I haven't yet been able to get hold of a chicken carcass. I've been trying for weeks and weeks but no butcher ever has them in when I ask. Very frustrating. There again, Ian Billington suggests giving chicken wings (which i've been doing) and I buy the Tom Lonsdale book (Works Wonders) and he tells us that it's not safe to give them to anything but a very small dog. Also, one says spinach is excellent another says it's toxic. I don't seem to be able to do right for doing wrong !! lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Treacle1 said:


> I am so very grateful to you for this post. I'm barf feeding my spaniel/poodle cross and really struggling with all the conflicting information in the books.
> Do you give your dogs added vitamins and minerals? Ian Billinghurst (Give your dog a bone) insists it's essential you add them but Tom Lonsdale tells you that you can make your dog ill by giving them. I haven't yet been able to get hold of a chicken carcass. I've been trying for weeks and weeks but no butcher ever has them in when I ask. Very frustrating. There again, Ian Billington suggests giving chicken wings (which i've been doing) and I buy the Tom Lonsdale book (Works Wonders) and he tells us that it's not safe to give them to anything but a very small dog. Also, one says spinach is excellent another says it's toxic. I don't seem to be able to do right for doing wrong !! lol


I don't give added vitamins and minerals, because I believe if you feed a good range of meat and vegetables etc, you don't need to, your dog should derive what it needs. I add the spices/herbs to boost that range, but other than that, the only additives are oil, kelp and possibly the occasional other thing like glucosamine for Indie.

If you can't source chicken carcasses from the butchers, I'm sure many of the raw food companies do them, or just do them yourself. Buy chickens and take off the meat for you, breast and legs, keep the carcass and wings for the dogs 

I've done this info as a guide, if you want it just email me at [email protected], and I'll send it over for you.


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## Treacle1 (Dec 28, 2011)

Hi,

Can you please post how you cut up a chicken carcass. I've just ordered a spare freezer but, as a vegetarian myself. I don't have a clue what to do with a chicken carcass (if I ever find a butcher who'll sell me one !!!!!).
Thanks. mellow:


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## Lil Doglets (Oct 17, 2011)

Treacle1 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you please post how you cut up a chicken carcass. I've just ordered a spare freezer but, as a vegetarian myself. I don't have a clue what to do with a chicken carcass (if I ever find a butcher who'll sell me one !!!!!).
> Thanks. mellow:


I was in the same predicament as you when i started  so what i did was go on youtube and search for 'how to cut up a chicken' then watched a couple of vids and hey presto! it's really easy if you watch a vid rather than trying to explain it in writing 

Here's a pretty good simple vid - The Test Kitchen: How to Cut Up a Whole Chicken - Gourmet Magazine - YouTube

You don't need to bother about taking the breastbone out like he does though, once you've got the legs and wings off you can pretty much cut up the rest however you like.
Hope that helps


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Great post loads of very good info and glad to see Im not mad feeding my dogs veggies, they love them but Ive had such negative comments form people saying its not good or unnatural...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

There's debate as to how important veggies are as dogs are biologically carnivores and their systems aren't designed to get nutrition from plants. The fact that to absorb any nutrients you have to process the veggies supports this. Feed a dog a whole carrot and you will get carrot chunks out. The main people pushing things like BARF and the message dogs are omnivores all have a commercial interest in doing so. They certainly don't do a dog any harm on occasion and they often enjoy the taste but isn't required in the majority of instances.

Supplements should be as the name suggests, a supplement. They should not be needed on a regular basis if the basic diet is correct and the dog healthy in all other aspects.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I do feed blended veggies, but they do need blending, otherwise they go straight through, the evidence is at the other end.

Finally got round to getting a chicken and portioning to show what I do, dead easy! One free range chicken, some poultry shears and a sharp knife:










First, take off the knuckle beneath the drumstick, these go in with the green tripe for the dogs here:










Next, cut underneath the wings to leave a deep incision, and push each wing back until the bone pops out, then just slice through the loose skin/meat:



















Next, cut down the loose skin right down to the thigh meat, and again, push the thigh back until the bone pops out and protrudes, then you can remove the thigh by just cutting through the meat:



















So now, you should have just the body left, with the legs and wings removed:










Find where the breastbone is by pushing down the meat, and running your fingers along, then cut down as close to the breast bone as possible:



















Use a sharp knife, to slice under the breast meat, and back down the breast bones, before trimming the meat away at the front:



















For the carcass, depending how large, you can cut into two, as I have done here, or, if the back is quite large, split that into two pieces for smaller dogs:










So you should be left with two legs and two breast portions for human consumption, and the carcass which is pretty much ideal in ratio for your dogs to eat for a raw diet:










This is a chicken carcass I get from the butchers, it varies, sometimes I get the backs, or the breast such as here, other times it can be a bit of a pick and mix, but you can't complain for £2.50 for a huge box!


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## Freddie and frank (Mar 26, 2012)

i too am finding it difficult to find a butcher that sells everything i need.
i'm in stafford so could anyone reccommend anywhere?


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## drucil (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi where do you buy your boxes of chicken carcasses from as most of the butchers I have been into in my area say I need to ask at a slaughter house, but the ones close to me do cows and lamb not chickens. 

Sorry posted this twice by accident


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## drucil (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi where do you get you boxes of chicken carcasses from and usually how many are in the box.
The butchers in my area told me to go to an abbatoir as they dont get things like that. 
They are butchers what do they get then!



Sleeping_Lion said:


> The chicken they get is either chicken carcasses stripped of most of the meat, one and a half carcasses, which has the breast and about half of the backbones is enough for one meal; or else I get chicken wings, the last two digits, six of which make enough for one meal. Fortunately I dont have to chop chicken up, but do usually have to pay for it, and depending on whether I get it from the butchers or another supplier, there is more meat on the carcasses, and so the price varies between approx £2.50 to £5 for a large box.


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## Treacle1 (Dec 28, 2011)

I get mine from a farm shop. It wasn't easy to find one that did it but he only charges about £1 to £1.50 for a massive box which last for several weeks.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ask around, or phone around, my butchers buy them in for restaurants to make chicken stock with, and, although the price has gone up over the last couple of years, it's still very good value, I pay £3.50 for a box of chicken carcasses, which lasts my four a week along with their other food. The restaurants have to pay for the carcasses by weight, which is quite a lot more, so if you can get a good deal with a butcher or farm shop etc, it's worth it. I also get free lamb bones from them when they have lamb in, and it's where I buy a lot of meat for us to eat as well, as they are a very good butchers.


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## niki (Jan 14, 2009)

Great post and well done for managing to take pics at the same time! I'd be minus a finger if I tried doing both... especially the third pic!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Coo £3.50 for a box of carcasses - BARGAIN!!!!

I pay £6 for 15kgs box's from my butcher although Scott at the dog food co sells the same for £8 but his have loads of meat still on, some necks and lots of skin so one carcass is a whole meal for my Mals. They are all dieting though and can't have the skin so I am getting mine from the butcher again because his are really normal carcasses with just a little meat. He sells me some delicious pork ribs though, all lovely and meaty and what I call chicken 'knees' little bits of legs all kibble sized which mix in nicely with their dinner or are good for indoor training, they love them!!!


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## kats56 (Aug 10, 2013)

Loving this thread, just one question....which is best tripe mince or chunks?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

kats56 said:


> Loving this thread, just one question....which is best tripe mince or chunks?


chunks or whole thing every time!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

kats56 said:


> Loving this thread, just one question....which is best tripe mince or chunks?


Both, you can mix in other things with the minced stuff but the whole stuff is just as good.

Edited to add, it's quite odd seeing this old thread crop up; I only had Indie and Tau back then, and didn't have some of the equipment I now have, and storage space. So for example, I now mince up liver raw with other things, rather than cook it.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

where can i find a list of fruit and veg they can and cant have?


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> where can i find a list of fruit and veg they can and cant have?


Google 

... Message too short


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

DirtyGertie said:


> Google
> 
> ... Message too short


have tried that but there is so many contradicting articles.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MrRustyRead said:


> have tried that but there is so many contradicting articles.


I'd suggest anything, except too many cruciferous vegetables. But just a good mix of root, pulse and leaf for me.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'd suggest anything, except too many cruciferous vegetables. But just a good mix of root, pulse and leaf for me.


most places ive just seen no onion, but some say you can feed tomato then another says no you cant, so confusing!

one site even said that you should not feed your dog marijuana..........


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MrRustyRead said:


> most places ive just seen no onion, but some say you can feed tomato then another says no you cant, so confusing!
> 
> one site even said that you should not feed your dog marijuana..........


Chuckling at the last one, I'd have to agree with that!

Onion's an obvious one to avoid, although I do use garlic cloves in their blended veggie mix. Tomatoes are a fruit, not a veg


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuckling at the last one, I'd have to agree with that!
> 
> Onion's an obvious one to avoid, although I do use garlic cloves in their blended veggie mix. Tomatoes are a fruit, not a veg


fruits can go in the mix as well cant they?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MrRustyRead said:


> fruits can go in the mix as well cant they?


They can, I don't use too many of them as I usually eat them all myself.

The reason they say not to use tomatoes is because they contain solanine, but that is usually found more in the green fruits and leaves of any of the members of the nightshade family. But red tomatoes contain something called lycopene, which is what makes them red, and is what colours your washing up water when you've had something like spag bol, and that's a really good healthy free radical.

I think you've got to bear in mind the old saying, everything in moderation. Avoid things which have obvious risks, such as onions and grapes, and if you're unsure I'd say avoid, my lot have always had left overs with stuff in that some people would say never to feed your dog, like chillies and onions from left over take aways, but they don't get it every day, it's just an occasional *treat*, Rhuna in particular loves her junk food!


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They can, I don't use too many of them as I usually eat them all myself.
> 
> The reason they say not to use tomatoes is because they contain solanine, but that is usually found more in the green fruits and leaves of any of the members of the nightshade family. But red tomatoes contain something called lycopene, which is what makes them red, and is what colours your washing up water when you've had something like spag bol, and that's a really good healthy free radical.
> 
> I think you've got to bear in mind the old saying, everything in moderation. Avoid things which have obvious risks, such as onions and grapes, and if you're unsure I'd say avoid, my lot have always had left overs with stuff in that some people would say never to feed your dog, like chillies and onions from left over take aways, but they don't get it every day, it's just an occasional *treat*, Rhuna in particular loves her junk food!


well i am known for being an ocd worrier, at least i have plenty of time to figure it all out before i get a dog.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> fruits can go in the mix as well cant they?


Poppy gets quite a variety of fruit (not regularly, just as a treat when I have them in and not in great quantity) like banana, apple, peach, nectarine, all kinds of melon, pineapple, strawberries, kiwis, cranberries, orange, pears. Sometimes I put a spoonful of natural probiotic yogurt with it, like a little dessert .

No grapes (already mentioned I think), raisins and I'm not sure about sultanas, can't remember so I don't give them.


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