# Genetic testing and the costs.



## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

I was wondering...
What tests need to be done on your cat before she has a litter?
How much would it cost?
Will it be able to predict the likelihood of all future genetic diseases?
Would these tests even work properly on a moggie because it's obviously a lot easier on a pedigree?

By my current understanding the research I've performed, it seems that moggies generally have less inherited problems than pedigrees and also generally live longer.
I've seen so many people use the abbreviations about them, but I'd like to know more, couldn't find a good website.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Everything that shows up in pedigrees also shows in domestics, it's just that no one keeps records on moggies or tries to breed issues out as they do with pedigrees.

So a moggie would need to have every test done, as you don't know what genetics are in there and what can be passed along. 

I don't think moggies live longer, I know lots of peds living into their 20's. Likewise lots of moggies not making it past 10. 

Tests are around $40US for each one, and there are approx 8-10. Plus HCM scanning, which where I live is $800.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If you google Langford Lab genetic testing, you'll find their list. For breeds, test costs can vary. With my breed, for example, the main health test I need to perform is the test for PKD. However, I also blood type all of my cats to avoid kitten deaths due to incompatible typing. I then choose to test for carrier genes such as chocolate and dilute.

Other breeders test for HCM, PKD, PRA, PKDef... The list goes on and on. You'd need to have every one of these done on a mog to ensure that it didn't have any associated problems. You'd also need to have them done on the stud. It would work out very expensive. If a cat was a carrier of a recessive condition, you would need to repeat the tests either on offspring or on another boy until you found one clear of all the known problems. This will easily run into the thousands with every single mating and generation, so as you can see, to breed moggies ethically when you'll only get about £100 at an absolute best for kittens that will cost you 5 times that to raise ethically, vaccinate, worm, flee, neuter and feed before they go to new homes, the logistics just aren't workable unless you have a lot of money and nothing else to spend it on.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

As SC says - I believe that people believe that moggies are healthier as no-one tests them. Therefore the breeders don't say I tested them for this and that. My friends have always had moggies. All have died of kidney disease. Now that could be down to feeding dry food, but . . .maybe they all had a faulty PKD (ploy-cystic kidney disease) who knows; because no-one tests moggies.

Plenty of people on this forum have moggies with diseases, HCM and PKD are common. Lots of people pop in and say x has y disease what can they do.

As to your question - it you want to test a moggy you would have to do every test as you don't know their heritage and it won't guarantee they won't get that disease but will help you know (it won't guarantee because you may be testing for the known ragdoll HCM gene and your cat carries a different HCM gene not yet identified) PKD is, I believe, across all breeds. 
SO whatever Langford offer needs testing for - as Carly says = both mum and Dad.

As for websites - try fabcats : feline advisory bureau - the website dedicated to feline wellbeing and Veterinary | Bristol | North Somerset | Langford | Animal hospital | Equine centre | Farm practice | Laborartory

this is the price list page http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/pdf/Genetic_price_list_breed_societies.pdf - so from that I reckon 10 tests needed for each cat - that doesn't include colour genes - just health tests - so about £100 a cat. There are 7 colour tests - but I would only do 3 or 4 of those as the likelihood of a moggy carrying cinnamon (for example) is very small - so another £50 for colour tests.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks for the information guys, really appreciate it; and those websites are great too  feel a lot more informed now.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Don'tforget to add on whatever your vet charges for doing swabs and forms plus the cost of microchipping if your cat doesn't already have one.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I would say the important ones for most breeds are:

i) FIV and FeLV. This is about 95 euros where I am (incl. withdrawing the blood)
ii) HCM. About 130 euro where I am (has to be done by a specialist, not by your vet) 
iii) PKD. Should be done two ways if possible. One via DNA (ie. through the websites listed) and also by echo (which again should be done by a specialist. Can be done at the same time as the HCM which means there's a small discount. Alone, it's about 110 euro. Together with HCM, it's about 165 euro). 

All the above (except PKD-DNA) will have to be done annually.

Edited to add: You also need to get your cat (and the potential mate blood tested)


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks  I think if we ever did breed her, it'd be with our current cat anyway, so it'd just be good sense to get them both tested whether we breed them or not 

You guys were right, just did a rough guide on how much it would cost and on an average litter size of 4, each kitten would have to go for £117 just to break even. Gave us a lot to think about


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

AND have you added in the cost of keeping kittens to 13 weeks, doing their vaccs (at £50 a kitten), the cost of extra litter, kitten toys, food for mum when pregnant and lactating (can eat up to 4 times more than normal), food for the kittens, worming every 2 weeks from 2 weeks old, preventative flea treatment, vets checks, washing all the blankets, emergency fund in case she needs an out of hours emergency C -section (up to £1000) etc. . . it all adds up.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> Thanks  I think if we ever did breed her, it'd be with our current cat anyway, so it'd just be good sense to get them both tested whether we breed them or not
> 
> You guys were right, just did a rough guide on how much it would cost and on an average litter size of 4, each kitten would have to go for £117 just to break even. Gave us a lot to think about


Have you included cost of vaccinations, worming, flea treatment, litter, food (including extra for a pregnant queen), cleaning - kittens can be messy, especially with litter training  Not to mention wear and tear on your house and furnishings. Also you need to consider the expense if things went wrong and your girl needed a ceasarian or even died and you had to hand rear kittens.
Dammit Spid you beat me to it again rrr:


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Yep, don't worry guys, got all that down  especially with the emergency cesarean, got a savings fund for our wedding so if something goes wrong we'll just have to dip into that.
I worked out though, if we have 2 litters (average of 4 kittens) over a period of 2 years, we'd be able to sell each kitten fully vaccinated, flead and wormed for about £80 each which is a lot more realistic for a healthy moggy kitten.
So I reckon if we did breed her we'd sell each kitten for £80 along with a leaflet (I like to get crafty haha) and a kitten pack, then if the first litter has no complications and the vet feels it's okay, a year later we might breed her again then we completely break even.

This is all hypothetical at the moment by the way, plus I can see me and my OH wanting to keep them all or just giving them to family members when they're ready to go, so we might not even break even


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

One thing I have learned in twenty years is that you never break even and it never goes to plan no matter how prepared you think you are and how much you have thought it through.

The unexpected always happens, often vet related, for example in one of my girls litters there was only one kitten born alive, at five weeks it was obvious he wasnt developing as he should and so ultrasound, bloods etc were done accompanied by a 250.00 bill to get to the bottom of it, last year I had a litter of kittens who developed runny tummies....vets daily for five days, five kittens, 13.00 per kitten per day for antibiotic injections.....had an eye swab done on a kitten with a particularly stubborn sticky eye - 120.00...I could go on and on. And these are the 'usual' things that happen not the 'biggies'.

I am currently on double litter, food bill for the kittens I am weaning alone is over 40.00 per week, thats not counting Mums too. 

You also need to consider the implications to your female cat....breeding from her increases her risk of mammary cancer and other conditions later in life, there is a reason why most mainstream pet insurance companies dont insure breeding cats as standard. 

It really is a minefield and breeding is a total committment....several years ago I had a couple of thousand pounds in my bank account as back up, this has now dwindled to virtually nothing and I top my emergency fund up out of my own wages monthly....usually doing without something other people spend their money on for pleasure and leisure to be able to do so.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

How on earth can you break even with kittens that will bring in a gross cost of £320 if the tests alone on the 2 cats will be a minimum of £200, plus consultation fees from the vet, so say £250? How can you afford to feed, provide litter for, do the washing, give vaccinations, flee treatment, worming treatment and all the other things already listed, for a litter of 4 for £170? I'd love to see your costings, as most breeders with the same litter size would sell for approx £400 per cat and still not even come close to making a profit, mostly not even breaking even!


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Excluding the stud fee, pedigree administration costs,vet fees (one of my kittens had an accident), kitten packs and cat club memberships, my last litter still cost 1200+ euro. That is a lot of money to lose for 4 kittens you're selling at 80 pounds each.

If you want to have 2 litters, you also have to think about your male cat spraying and your female cat calling in between.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> Yep, don't worry guys, got all that down  especially with the emergency cesarean, got a savings fund for our wedding so if something goes wrong we'll just have to dip into that.
> I worked out though, if we have 2 litters (average of 4 kittens) over a period of 2 years, we'd be able to sell each kitten fully vaccinated, flead and wormed for about £80 each which is a lot more realistic for a healthy moggy kitten.
> So I reckon if we did breed her we'd sell each kitten for £80 along with a leaflet (I like to get crafty haha) and a kitten pack, then if the first litter has no complications and the vet feels it's okay, a year later we might breed her again then we completely break even.
> 
> This is all hypothetical at the moment by the way, plus I can see me and my OH wanting to keep them all or just giving them to family members when they're ready to go, so we might not even break even


Samantha, I want your calculator  !!


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

I know, things can go horribly wrong. I think in that instance I'd just accept the loss of the money, for example when I was 14 my first cat had a litter of 7, all but 2 died because they were under developed.
I know breeders can have a hard time breaking even which is why I'm already accepting their is going to be a loss in money, I'm not looking to do this for a hobby, me and my OH were just discussing the possibility of breeding our 2 cats together one time.
Our main reasoning for doing this is probably pretty selfish from the cat's point of view, we want to experience the birth process (properly, considering I was only a kid and didn't really understand when my first cat had a litter), I want to be able to do it properly, with the tests and vaccinations, I want to experience helping them bring up their litter (I've looked into fostering orphaned kittens and because we live in the city centre and we're technically inexperienced according to them, we can't) and also my mum has a mother and a son, I'd like to keep the kittens in the family, be able to visit them and see them through family members and watch them grow up in a happy and healthy environment, it's really fulfilling seeing a kitten, you helped bring into the world, grow up.

I just want to make sure you guys know at this moment in time this is purely hypothetical, no decisions have been made for sure, my babies are still young yet


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> Yep, don't worry guys, got all that down  especially with the emergency cesarean, got a savings fund for our wedding so if something goes wrong we'll just have to dip into that.
> I worked out though, if we have 2 litters (average of 4 kittens) over a period of 2 years, we'd be able to sell each kitten fully vaccinated, flead and wormed for about £80 each which is a lot more realistic for a healthy moggy kitten.
> So I reckon if we did breed her we'd sell each kitten for £80 along with a leaflet (I like to get crafty haha) and a kitten pack, then if the first litter has no complications and the vet feels it's okay, a year later we might breed her again then we completely break even.
> 
> This is all hypothetical at the moment by the way, plus I can see me and my OH wanting to keep them all or just giving them to family members when they're ready to go, so we might not even break even


You sound like you are really wanting to get into breeding ...... have you ever considered going down the pedigree route? Investigating properly, looking at all the genetics, going to show's etc Breeders breed cat's to better the breed (blimey try saying that when you've had a few ), maybe have a chat with some ...... as you can see there are a quite a few on here 

I really don't see the point of breeding moggie kittens, even with all the health tests done, when there are literally thousands waiting for homes in rescues. This is a personal view, and I'm not saying it to upset anyone!

I don't want to start a debate on pedigrees vs moggies, was just an honest observation on your posts


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Why would I pay £80 for a moggie


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

pipje said:


> Excluding the stud fee, pedigree administration costs,vet fees (one of my kittens had an accident), kitten packs and cat club memberships, my last litter still cost 1200+ euro. That is a lot of money to lose for 4 kittens you're selling at 80 pounds each.
> 
> If you want to have 2 litters, you also have to think about your male cat spraying and your female cat calling in between.


Would there still be pedigree administration costs and cat club memberships if they're moggies?

If anything goes wrong we'll just have to put the wedding off for a bit longer


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> Would there still be pedigree administration costs and cat club memberships if they're moggies?
> 
> If anything goes wrong we'll just have to put the wedding off for a bit longer


Personally I would rather have a nice wedding


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> Would there still be pedigree administration costs and cat club memberships if they're moggies?
> 
> If anything goes wrong we'll just have to put the wedding off for a bit longer


No, there isn't. That's why I said EXCLUDING  Including all that I excluded in my initial post, my litter cost over 2700 euros (kittens were sold for 2200 euros= loss of 500+ euro). Granted, that wasn't normal, as one of my kittens had an accident. However, minus the vet fees for her from birth til 13 weeks, the costs were still rather high at about 2350 (the first litter is always the most expensive due to 'start-up' costs).


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Cookieandme said:


> Why would I pay £80 for a moggie


You reckon that's pretty expensive? :sosp: I paid £60 for Cas, he was unvaccinated, with no flea or worming treatment, then paid an extra £40 on top to get him healthy, so I reckon I wouldn't mind if I paid £80 for a fully healthy moggy 



Jenny1966 said:


> You sound like you are really wanting to get into breeding ...... have you ever considered going down the pedigree route? Investigating properly, looking at all the genetics, going to show's etc Breeders breed cat's to better the breed (blimey try saying that when you've had a few ), maybe have a chat with some ...... as you can see there are a quite a few on here
> 
> I really don't see the point of breeding moggie kittens, even with all the health tests done, when there are literally thousands waiting for homes in rescues. This is a personal view, and I'm not saying it to upset anyone!
> 
> I don't want to start a debate on pedigrees vs moggies, was just an honest observation on your posts


It's an interest of mine, but I wouldn't be able to fit it in with my lifestyle, obviously I'm going to be a student for another year and a bit so right now I have the time and dispensable money with not that many commitments. But after university I'm hoping to go into clinical psychology which has ridiculously unpredictable hours, so I wouldn't be able to give the cats quality care that they need if I genuinely went into breeding peds.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

pipje said:


> No, there isn't. That's why I said EXCLUDING  Including all that I excluded in my initial post, my litter cost over 2700 euros (kittens were sold for 2200 euros= loss of 500+ euro). Granted, that wasn't normal, as one of my kittens had an accident. However, minus the vet fees for her from birth til 13 weeks, the costs were still rather high at about 2350 (the first litter is always the most expensive due to 'start-up' costs).


Yeah, start-up costs are I found the most expenses came from. I don't mind taking a loss (considering I only want 1 litter, it's not plausible to handle taking a massive loss on every litter), I figured as long as they go to good homes and have good health, I can accept the loss


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Jenny1966 said:


> Personally I would rather have a nice wedding


I know, you all must think I'm nuts! Haha


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> I know, you all must think I'm nuts! Haha


ermmmmm would you be offended if I said yes?


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Jenny1966 said:


> ermmmmm would you be offended if I said yes?


No it's cool, I know I'm bonkers for thinking about doing this


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If it's the birth process you want, why not take in a pregnant cat that someone wants rid of? There are plenty normally being advertised that don't even make it to rescue...

In terms of things to consider:

1. How do you plan to keep your male and female apart long enough to allow her to fully mature before breeding? Males and females get incredibly stressed and distressed when they're in close proximity to one another and a female is in call.

2. How will you cope with a spraying boy indoors? The vast majority of entire males spray which is why most studs are housed in outdoor runs.

3. When she's had her litter, you will then need to keep them separate again, all the way through the kittens growing until they're old enough to defend themselves against a potentially aggressive male. I've known of boys to kill kittens, and I'm not saying that to scare you, it's simply a fact. They will only ever be together for mating, then perhaps, if she tolerates him, during the 65 days of her pregnancy. Otherwise they will need to lead a very separate existence. Would you want this for your pets? Ideally, you would then need to get 2 more cats to keep the breeding pair company, as it's not fair for a sociable cat to live on its own. This is why breeders normally have a neuter around for their outdoor boy, and more than one girl to keep everyone happy.

4. How will you cope with your boy's frustration? Most studs require a minimum of 3 girls in a year to remain content. You'll only have 1.

5. When it's time to neuter, the likelihood is that your boy will continue to spray if left in the same environment, i.e your house, due to habit. Would you be strong enough either to cope with that for the rest of his life, or to rehome him to a new place where the need to spray won't be so pressing?

7. What will you do if one of your cats has one of the genetic health problems listed or if their blood typing is incompatible?

8. How will you deal with neighbours when your girl keeps not only you, but them awake all night with her incessant yowling and screaming when she's in call for up to a week and may not come off call for more than a few days in between?

Just trying to give you things to think about. Breeding, even for only 2 litters, is no small undertaking... And you'd do all of this to make a guaranteed loss, because you don't stand a hope of breaking even. If you are doing this ethically (it sounds as though you want to), then the cost of flea and worm treatment, vaccinations and neutering alone will more than wipe out your purchase price by a considerable margin. That's not even beginning to consider food, litter, cleaning, testing etc. I really don't see how this is viable, even though I do understand your wish to experience the birthing process.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hmmmm, seems I've lost my ability to count!


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

I think if possible you could friend or help out a cat foster carer or breeder to get the real picture of what is involved before making any decisions.

A couple of years ago I was approached for a female kitten on Active by someone who felt the self same sentiments about experiencing the birth and growing up process.

My stipulation was that she became my litter buddy first for the kittens I was expecting at the time and she duly came and spent a lot of time with me.....during the birth she was distressed as we had a stillborn kitten and it was a difficult labour, she found she was squeamish about the piles of bloody towels that were piling up next to us, the mess and the stress.....birth is not always the beautiful experince you think it will be.

When it came to staying over all night to feed a struggling kitten every two hours she couldnt make it....her boss wasnt as understanding as mine, I am self employed so could drop everything, she came during the days though to help with the washing, cleaning and as the kittens got older to help clean the poo streaks off the sofa!!!! She helped wean the kittens and soon got used to the bleaching and cleaning of all the trays several times a day for the kittens.

She helped clean my stud house out.....all credit to her as my boy at the time was a real stinker and understood why the cats were all seperated in the way they are....Mums with kittens in my office, boys outside, calling girl upstairs to minimise noise to neighbours etc.

At the end of the day she said she enjoyed the experience but it wasnt for her....she chose a girl from the litter who was then neutered and she is currently waiting for another kitten from me, again who will be neutered.

Hands on experience really does help.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

A pregnant cat is something definitely to consider, never thought of that before so thank you 

I've never had both a boy and a girl that weren't neutered so this is definitely going to be a challenge, I'd be horrified is he impregnated her too soon. This is something I'll have to do research into asap, I'm just glad for now neither of them have sexually matured yet (the longer it takes, the better!)

We've decided to try out a few different techniques for the spraying, including the feliway stop spraying diffuser. We're planning on neutering him asap, so that should reduce the spraying anyway, in the mean time I think we can handle it. My mum handles her ginger tom spraying well, he's a big sprayer because there's so many other boy cats around my old house.

I understand how much of a risk Cas would be to the kittens, he's a massive softy but he could easily switch so we're going to give her the spare room so she can have access to everything and her own privacy.
I'm hoping if she just has one litter, they can be neutered as soon as possible because they're extremely close and I don't want them to grow apart. The neutered cat is a good idea, we've been talking about keeping a kitten from the litter and neutering it.

Not gonna lie, I have no clue how I'd handle his frustration, hopefully we'll only end up having 1 litter and as soon as Nora is pregnant he's getting the snip.

So would you say, if we moved him to a different environment he wouldn't feel the need to spray anymore? Because we aren't home owners yet, and if that means he'll stop spraying when we move, that's something we'd definitely be up for. Could never get rid of him, even if he spraying gets intolerable 

If they have genetic health problems or they're incompatible I'll just accept it and neuter them straight away, peace of mind then 

I'll just try and build a good relationship with my neighbours first, hopefully they won't mind that much  At least she's an indoor cat, so she won't be sat in their back garden giving them hell 

Thanks for mentioning all that stuff, there's a lot of stuff in their I still need to look into before making my final decision, it's good for us to get a good overview first before jumping into anything rash.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

lisajjl1 said:


> I think if possible you could friend or help out a cat foster carer or breeder to get the real picture of what is involved before making any decisions.
> 
> A couple of years ago I was approached for a female kitten on Active by someone who felt the self same sentiments about experiencing the birth and growing up process.
> 
> ...


I'd love to be someone's litter buddy to be honest 

But I do already have experience with my previous moggies, my OH however has never even had a cat before. Charlie gave birth to 7 kittens and 5 of them died, Rockstar was one of the survivors, who then went on to have 2 litters of 1 kitten each.
You're right, it's really not beautiful, I had to physically pull Alfie out of Rockstar because she was so tired. However I was really lucky in the sense that both of them knew what they were doing throughout and were excellent mothers, but even though I was a kid I fully prepared myself with the knowledge to intervene if something went wrong.

If you know anyone in the Manchester area that needs a litter mate I'd be more than happy to help and I'm definitely not squeamish


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

If your cats become 'mating partners' you are more than likely going to permanantly change the dynamics of their relationship. I doubt they would then return to 'friends' afterwards as though nothing has happened even though you would want them to.

I am currently having to look for a home for my beautiful neutered stud boy as the girls now hate him with a vengence...he lived in the house with them for nearly a year and all was good and was only seperated from them for a mater of months while he was 'on duty' but they simply will not now accept him back in the houselhold, to the point where there is real violence towards him.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

That would be a nightmare if that happened, the cons are seriously starting to outweigh the pros. I love watching how close they are, would hate to ruin it 

I think my best option is to just look for an already pregnant queen someone doesn't want and neuter Cas and Nora. At least then I'd be giving a cat a home and giving kittens proper care.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Another thing to consider - you say you aren't in the position to do it now, being a student etc, and I'm not sure how old Nora is but . . . . once she starts calling (can be from 6 months) she will call for a week every 3 weeks until she is mated. If she isn't mated within the first few calls (most say about the 3rd call is right - depending on the age of the girl - obviously mating up a 7 month old isn't good) she is at risk of developing pyometra, this is a condition where the womb fills with pus and is potentially fatal. Basically cats don't shed the lining of their womb after each call (i.e, they don't have periods) and this lining can become infected easily. SO if you are thinking of holding off for a year or so, then this wouldn't be fair on Nora to have to wait and the potential health implications are not good. SHe may spray all that time (queens spray too) and the habit may not break once neutered) and she may soil outside the litter box (in an attempt to attract a male), she will lose condition with each call until it would actually be unfair to mate her as she wouldn't have the energy left to produce good quality babies.

*Oops read that wrong - but will leave it up for educational purposes for others.*

Other than that - my last lot of five kittens and Mum cost me at least £50 a week in food and litter for the 10 weeks the kittens wolfed down/ate food.

so £500 for food and litter, plus £15 for worming, plus £50 x 5 (£250) fir vacs, plus toys (£25), plus vet checks (£50), plus washing etc (£25) deflea (preventative) £20

That's £187 per kitten - then I actually registered them, paid for a stud, paid for genetic tests, and a snap test, paid for mum, provided kittens packs, neutered them, advertised, paid my breed club membership, replacement milk and syringes for the one that didn't know how to suckle to begin with, medical kit for the birth,bought a kittening pen, bought a kitten pen, sounds CD to get them used to noises, - comes to £2627.

So another £525 per kitten. Making each kitten cost a minimum (as I know I've forgotten stuff) £712 to raise. I charged £500ish for them. SO for each kitten I made a loss of at least £212 and on two that went at half price for various reasons I lost £462. SO a total loss on one *easy* litter of £1560.

Making my kittens very expensive little bundles of joy.

Now I know you don't have the start up costs of a queen, nor a stud fee. But even so, it needs thinking about.

Oh yes, I needed extra litter trays too and I had to throw away some stuff that got wee'd on when mum was calling and I couldn't get the smell out of. SO another £150 went there too. I'm sure I will think of more. Oh and the cost of feeding mum more for the 9 weeks of pregnancy and the 3 weeks before the kittens are weaned - say an extra £100 there. Oh and show costs to, to get my name known etc.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Samantha, I think your idea of searching for an already pregnant girl is much the best option if you're determined to have a litter. The only problem then is that you would have no guarantee of healthy kittens as mum would not have been tested, nor dad. That being said though, there's going to be an element of risk in kittening any cat of unknown origins. It's a difficult one, but given the lovely dynamic that your current two already have, I'd not ruin that by breeding them. It's never the same when they've had kittens. I only have girls, and even with them, the relationships totally change whenever one has kittens or comes into call. Feliway will do nothing to stop an entire cat spraying, believe me, and that's not something I'd like anyone to cope with on a regular basis. Have you ever seen a stud house before it's scrubbed down? They can be horrendous! And that's in a regularly cleaned, hard surfaced environment, not on a sofa or soft furnishings. The smell's incredibly strong!

Don't think that just because she's indoor, your girl won't upset the neighbours. i had a grand total of 3 hours sleep last night because i have a screamer, and the neighbours came out this morning and asked me if my cat had been seriously injured overnight. They're not used to hearing this particular girl call as she was quiet last year, but now that she's been kittened and has a rival female in the house, she's earsplitting. I'd not wish that on anyone who wasn't serious about improving a breed. I'll try and get a recording of her later to let you hear... And this is from one of the quietest breeds there are. Imagine if your girl, as is more typical, was even louder!

I applaud you for wanting to do the thing propperly, but to be honest, my head and heart would advise you to hold off for a little bit until you're settled, then go down the pedigree route. Pick a breed you're passioinate about, and have the joy of years of watching your breed improve and your fully healthy fully tested kittens find fabulous forever homes. Instead of just one generation, you'll have countless generations of babies to love. I'm sure there are many breeders who would be only too pleased to work with someone who cares about doing the right thing as much as you seem to.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

That is a heck of a lot of money :bored: Breeding kittens really is a labour of love, these people who live off their profits from kittens obviously aren't doing it ethically.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

samanthagoosey said:


> that is a heck of a lot of money :bored: Breeding kittens really is a labour of love, these people who live off their profits from kittens obviously aren't doing it ethically.


precisely!!!!!


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Samantha, I think your idea of searching for an already pregnant girl is much the best option if you're determined to have a litter. The only problem then is that you would have no guarantee of healthy kittens as mum would not have been tested, nor dad. That being said though, there's going to be an element of risk in kittening any cat of unknown origins. It's a difficult one, but given the lovely dynamic that your current two already have, I'd not ruin that by breeding them. It's never the same when they've had kittens. I only have girls, and even with them, the relationships totally change whenever one has kittens or comes into call. Feliway will do nothing to stop an entire cat spraying, believe me, and that's not something I'd like anyone to cope with on a regular basis. Have you ever seen a stud house before it's scrubbed down? They can be horrendous! And that's in a regularly cleaned, hard surfaced environment, not on a sofa or soft furnishings. The smell's incredibly strong!
> 
> Don't think that just because she's indoor, your girl won't upset the neighbours. i had a grand total of 3 hours sleep last night because i have a screamer, and the neighbours came out this morning and asked me if my cat had been seriously injured overnight. They're not used to hearing this particular girl call as she was quiet last year, but now that she's been kittened and has a rival female in the house, she's earsplitting. I'd not wish that on anyone who wasn't serious about improving a breed. I'll try and get a recording of her later to let you hear... And this is from one of the quietest breeds there are. Imagine if your girl, as is more typical, was even louder!
> 
> I applaud you for wanting to do the thing propperly, but to be honest, my head and heart would advise you to hold off for a little bit until you're settled, then go down the pedigree route. Pick a breed you're passioinate about, and have the joy of years of watching your breed improve and your fully healthy fully tested kittens find fabulous forever homes. Instead of just one generation, you'll have countless generations of babies to love. I'm sure there are many breeders who would be only too pleased to work with someone who cares about doing the right thing as much as you seem to.


Thank you for the advice, it's given me a far greater understanding because the actual impregnation process and spraying males is something I'm very unfamiliar with.
Hopefully I do get the opportunity in the future to breed my own pedigrees or just help someone out with their's  would be a great experience


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm struggling with why you want to do this. I think we've pursuaded you there isn't any money in it. 

Have we managed to pursuade you that there are already far, far too many moggie kittens with the result that both cats and kittens in rescues end up getting euthanased as they don't get homes fast enough? And that the no-kill rescues often have to shut their doors as they are full?

Do you have any idea what living with a female cat calling can be like? They can be very noisy and some of them start peeing all over the place.

Are you wanting to see a litter of kittens grow up? If so ring your local rescues and I'm sure one of them will welcome you with open arms, and hopefully they will also provide food, litter and vetinary care so it will cost you a lot of time but that's it. It was all provided for the first litters I fostered, but the last was a favour for friend (don't ask, it's complicated) and I paid all the litter and food costs. 

You must, however, keep them away from your existing cat or cats - the mother will do her best to kill them if she thinks they are threatening her kittens. That means having a room you can devote to mother & kittens.

And fostering can mean heart-break. One litter I fostered all died at about a week old, with another several were seriously ill with a flu-type virus after rehoming and one died. They were well with me but the virus must have been there and the stress of rehoming brought it out.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I think she's already said that rescue have turned her down, so that's not an option.

Samantha, the actual impregnation process is incredibly painful for the female cat and risky for your boy. Their willies have barbs on them, so they go in all right, but when the boy attempts to withdraw, he rips the girl from the inside. Not surprisingly, this provokes the girl into extreme violence at the pain of it. Girls routinely will try and really harm the stud after mating. I know of studs who have lost an eye because of an angry girl, so again, really not for the faint hearted.

If you were closer to Oxford, I'd offer to allow you access to one of my litters, but I'd insist that you came around weaning and toilet training time... Those few weeks are absolutely horrendous, and every time I do it, I swear it will be my last. It brings me to the edge of sanity, and I'm not exaggerating. You're welcome to spend a day here, but to be honest, you'll not get a true feel for it in a day, and I haven't anything due for a few months. However, if you think it would benefit you, then I'm open to chatting more about it.

Either way though, in your position, I wouldn't put pets through it, not when it doesn't serve a purpose of improving a particular breed, not when you want to do it for, as you put it yourself, selfish reasons. With all the stress, pain and upset, it's not worth it for the cats just because you want to see a litter grow, no matter how powerful the urge.


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm struggling with why you want to do this. I think we've pursuaded you there isn't any money in it.
> 
> Have we managed to pursuade you that there are already far, far too many moggie kittens with the result that both cats and kittens in rescues end up getting euthanased as they don't get homes fast enough? And that the no-kill rescues often have to shut their doors as they are full?
> 
> ...


My initial interest wasn't about the money, I just wanted to make sure I covered the costs as much as I could, not make a profit.

To be honest, if I could've never found homes for the kittens, I would have kept them all no matter how many.

I do, Rockstar still comes on heat despite being neutered because the vet couldn't find her deformed uterus, so she still excretes the hormones, she's just unable to get pregnant. Living with her for 5 years with her coming on heat every two weeks, didn't really bother me, bothers my mum more than me.

Rescues won't consider me, I live just off Oxford road in the Manchester city centre. So I'm going to do what Carly suggested and look for people who don't want their pregnant queens, take them in give them a nice home and try to give the kittens the best start in life  I know there's major risks, but I'm prepared to take them. I'd love the opportunity to change a cat's life for the better.


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

I think you have made the right decision 

Not only will you get the hand's on experience you want, but you will also be helping a cat no one else wanted. 

Your own pet will also be spared the trauma of a birth that isn't needed.

Good luck 





On a side note ...... isn't it nice that someone was prepared to listen to all the advice without any sniping and bitterness!


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Jenny1966 said:


> I think you have made the right decision
> 
> Not only will you get the hand's on experience you want, but you will also be helping a cat no one else wanted.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thanks for all the advice as well! You guys were just being honest and looking out for what's best, I really appreciate that 
I will make sure to keep you all updated if I do find any pregnant queens!


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> Thank you, thanks for all the advice as well! You guys were just being honest and looking out for what's best, I really appreciate that
> I will make sure to keep you all updated if I do find any pregnant queens!


Please don't come back in a few month's time with 'my cat is pregnant, help!!'


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2013)

I just wouldn't want you to lose your girl. Queens die  
Don't risk her by getting her into the pregnancy predicament. Help a cat already in that predicament 

We recently followed the rescue of a female ginger cat by one of our members who was subsequently fostered by another of our members, the discovery that she was pregnant, and then that member's dedication raising the kittens including one tiny little one we all feared wouldn't make it.

A much more rewarding experience


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> You reckon that's pretty expensive? :sosp: I paid £60 for Cas, he was unvaccinated, with no flea or worming treatment, then paid an extra £40 on top to get him healthy, so I reckon I wouldn't mind if I paid £80 for a fully healthy moggy
> 
> <snip>


Rescues expect a donation of that much or more, but you get a neutered vaccinated wormed deflead cat or kitten, or maybe a neutering voucher it it's a young kitten. The people who had the kittens in my last litter got a bargain, they were healthy and well adjusted - or so their vet said!

However someone said a rescue turned you down? Still looking for that post.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> <snip>
> (I've looked into fostering orphaned kittens and because we live in the city centre and we're technically inexperienced according to them, we can't)
> <snip>


Living in the city centre doesn't matter for raising kittens as they shouldn't be let out. It might be a problem if you don't have a car and need to get to the vets, or go and pick up supplies from the rescues 'home base'.

And yes, kittens without mother can be a challenge so did you offer to foster a female with her kittens?

How many rescues did you talk to?


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## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Jenny1966 said:


> Please don't come back in a few month's time with 'my cat is pregnant, help!!'


Haha, don't worry I won't 



NexivRed said:


> I just wouldn't want you to lose your girl. Queens die
> Don't risk her by getting her into the pregnancy predicament. Help a cat already in that predicament
> 
> We recently followed the rescue of a female ginger cat by one of our members who was subsequently fostered by another of our members, the discovery that she was pregnant, and then that member's dedication raising the kittens including one tiny little one we all feared wouldn't make it.
> ...


I know, if anything happened to Nora, I'd be lost  I imagine it is very rewarding 



OrientalSlave said:


> Living in the city centre doesn't matter for raising kittens as they shouldn't be let out. It might be a problem if you don't have a car and need to get to the vets, or go and pick up supplies from the rescues 'home base'.
> 
> And yes, kittens without mother can be a challenge so did you offer to foster a female with her kittens?
> 
> How many rescues did you talk to?


I didn't get to talk to them, we are immediately ruled out because of our area, plus I told our real estate agent have cats, but I'm not sure if he's told our landlord, so we haven't even recieved the letter yet about allowing cats, he just said "yeah" not something we can give to a shelter. I'll just send an email to all the shelters in the area now, you never know.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> <snip>
> I imagine it is very rewarding
> <snip>


It is, it's sad when the kittens go but a relief as well - no more shovelling massive mountains of litter and food. And it's awful when something goes wrong, thankfully hasn't happened to me - yet. It's happened to a friend in spades.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Personally instead of taking on a pregnant cat and continuing to have the kittens, I would prefer to see these cats spayed to terminate. 

I see far too many pregnant cats and kittens, while assisting Animallifeline.


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## serenity61 (Apr 26, 2012)

Please don't take this the wrong way but why do you want to breed 'moggies' when the shelters are overrun with kittens and adults that no one wants.

I know you said 'if they don't sell, I'd keep them all myself' but imagine if your cat had say 6 kittens, you would end up with your 2 adults and 6 kitties to look after for many years.
That is 8 times food, innocculations, neutering, litter, insurance/vet bills etc etc. 
Ultimately it is your decision but please think carefully.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Are there private rescues over there? Here there are quite a few of them, basically run out of someone's home with a large network of foster carers - they couldn't survive without their carers taking in and raising the litters.
Just a thought and perhaps less strict in their requirements than the rspca etc. 

I do also agree with a post above that if possible the girls should be spayed rather than carrying a litter to term, many people don't surrender their cats until they're about to burst though so there is always that need for fosters unfortunately.


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## Chiantina (Oct 16, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Are there private rescues over there? Here there are quite a few of them, basically run out of someone's home with a large network of foster carers - they couldn't survive without their carers taking in and raising the litters.
> Just a thought and perhaps less strict in their requirements than the rspca etc.


There's certainly one in my area called Iris' Cats in Need!!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

We have one too :thumbup: Lymington Cat & Kitten Rescue:thumbup:


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> We have one too :thumbup: Lymington Cat & Kitten Rescue:thumbup:


Just visited their website and see they're at risk of having to shut down. Too many cats, not enough resources. I read for every cat they adopt out, there are 10 waiting to come in.

Hope enough funds are raised for them to continue.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

The lovely lady who runs it is often at her wits end  I buy stuff from their charity shop and take food in for them but it is the room to keep the cats that they need more than anything


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## AnnieHH (Mar 4, 2016)

pipje said:


> I would say the important ones for most breeds are:
> 
> i) FIV and FeLV. This is about 95 euros where I am (incl. withdrawing the blood)
> ii) HCM. About 130 euro where I am (has to be done by a specialist, not by your vet)
> ...


There are laboratories that do HCM genetic testing for some breeds, can that kind of test be done instead of the specialist examination? Less expensive, found it at a price of 47,90EUR.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Genetic testing for HCM is only recognized for Maine Coons and Ragdolls and even then, it is not conclusive as it only tests for one gene. It is recommended for Maine Coons and Ragdolls to be tested both genetically as well as with an echo by a recognized specialist


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## AnnieHH (Mar 4, 2016)

I have a Ragdoll so I better do both to be sure


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