# Clean Eating



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Can anyone explain what it is? I assumed that it was a more vegan style diet, but the problems these young girls have are certainly not caused by a healthy diet

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...d-taking-young-women.html?ito=social-facebook


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I watched something about this a while ago but can't remember which channel it was on. Like anything taken to extremes it was worrying. There are various different bloggers promoting various different extremely restrictive diets from raw vegetables to porridge. If I remember right there had even been prosecutions (or there were pending prosecutions) because one person had faked a cancer cure from some form of 'clean eating'.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

The trouble with these new fads is that they get taken to extremes.

My idea of clean eating to me would be cutting out the cr*p and heavily processed foods but these girls end up removing many of the essential elements from their diets too which is obviously detrimental.

They cross from trying to eat healthily to an eating disorder.

I've stood behind girls in the supermarket buying jars of baby food because that was the latest fad! 

They learn about healthy eating and nutrition in school so intellectually they know faddy, restrictive diets aren't good but some still get hooked.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nothing to do with veganism it's a diet against anything processed, so you can eat meat, though I suspect that those that go this far have already given up meat 

I loved the term from the article
"Orthorexia has long been established as a disordered, unhealthy way of thinking"

I think this applies to so many people these days. Probably manifested from things they constantly read on the internet.
I'm often shocked at just how narrow some people are these days and online even worse than out in the real world. It seems to polarise views by some form of drip feed brain washing


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

What this woman described isn't clean eating. It's like saying doing slimming world is dangerous because a member is choosing to live solely on 0% fat muller lights. 
People take things to extreme for reasons known only to themselves


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> What this woman described isn't clean eating. It's like saying doing slimming world is dangerous because a member is choosing to live solely on 0% fat muller lights.


The objection isn't that individuals are choosing to take it to extremes, it's that bloggers are promoting extremes. In your example it would be the equivalent of a class leader telling everyone to eat only zero fat muller lights. Some of these bloggers have a near cult following to the point that they were being sponsored by big business - views and 'likes' are everything.

Wish I could remember what the programme was called and where I saw it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> The objection isn't that individuals are choosing to take it to extremes, it's that bloggers are promoting extremes. In your example it would be the equivalent of a class leader telling everyone to eat only zero fat muller lights. Some of these bloggers have a near cult following to the point that they were being sponsored by big business - views and 'likes' are everything.
> 
> Wish I could remember what the programme was called and where I saw it.


Do you mean the horizon programme?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04pwrgf

They covered clean eating but unfortunately decided to lump veganism as in whole food plant based in with it and tried to discredit the work of a very well respected scientist who has spent years studying the links between diet and poor health. The presenter of the programme also had undisclosed links to big pharma looking to find a drug to treat obesity. This is their response and is well worth reading

http://nutritionstudies.org/british-broadcasting-corporation-bbc-your-credibility-is-tarnished/

I'm reading this book at the moment

http://proteinaholic.com/

its written by a bariatric surgeon and has some really interesting information about how fake science makes it into low rate medical/science journals, gets picked up by medical/science journalists and bloggers who just read the conclusion without bothering to read the whole study, analysis the methodology or look at who funded it or the previous work of the authors. They reproduce it in the media and on blogs and hey presto the public jump on board believing this is the new best thing or that hey lashings of butter is good for you after all. This muddies the water so that people believe no one knows what is healthy and what isn't so they take the option of carrying on doing what they always have or following the latest celebrity craze rather than reading what the bulk of the studies show to be healthy.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

havoc said:


> The objection isn't that individuals are choosing to take it to extremes, it's that bloggers are promoting extremes. In your example it would be the equivalent of a class leader telling everyone to eat only zero fat muller lights. Some of these bloggers have a near cult following to the point that they were being sponsored by big business - views and 'likes' are everything.
> 
> Wish I could remember what the programme was called and where I saw it.


Bloggers are not dietitians, they are individuals who choose to take a"ideas" to extremes, anyone can be a blogger, anyone can promote things they believe - what they shouldn't do is do so under the notion that it is promoting something else, in this case clean eating.. Clean eating is actually healthy, if done as it was intended,no processed garbage, good "clean" wholesome nutritional food - it's not rocket science
People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and not be so easily led by others


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Like anything if taken to extremes its daft or downright dangerous.. I have two friends one is now convinced that carbs are the cause of all evils so she will eat 0 carbs.. Not a nice dinner guest.
The other is OTT about the properties of CBD oil she even told my neighbour whos mother died in March that if he had given her CBD oil she might still be alive..
That was dangerous because I darn near punched her..What an awful thing to say to someone...


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

dorrit said:


> Like anything if taken to extremes its daft or downright dangerous.. I have two friends one is now convinced that carbs are the cause of all evils so she will eat 0 carbs.. Not a nice dinner guest.
> The other is OTT about the properties of CBD oil she even told my neighbour whos mother died in March that if he had given her CBD oil she might still be alive..
> That was dangerous because I darn near punched her..What an awful thing to say to someone...


Oh God, that reminds me of a post that was doing the rounds on Facebook about the million and one benefits of coconut oil. One of the things was that it prevents autism. My friend, who had an autistic son almost hit the roof


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Have to agree that lumping veganism in with the extreme diet bloggers is far from helpful and it is a real shame it's happened. Whatever it was I watched highlighted the lack of (or bogus) qualifications of bloggers who advocated the most ridiculously restrictive diets and who made the most fantastical claims.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Here's an example of the sort of thing I mean

Freelee The Banana Girl who promotes a raw vegan diet of 15 bananas, 40 pieces of fruit and a couple of kilograms of potatoes a day. She claims that eating this way has cured her weight issues, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, chronic fatigue, poor digestion and acne.

I can't think of any parent would be happy for their child to live on that but why did the word 'vegan' creep into the description? I don't think any vegans I know would advocate that diet.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

havoc said:


> Here's an example of the sort of thing I mean
> 
> Freelee The Banana Girl who promotes a raw vegan diet of 15 bananas, 40 pieces of fruit and a couple of kilograms of potatoes a day. She claims that eating this way has cured her weight issues, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, chronic fatigue, poor digestion and acne.
> 
> I can't think of any parent would be happy for their child to live on that but why did the word 'vegan' creep into the description? I don't think any vegans I know would advocate that diet.


Ohhhh where do I sign up? Can the potatoes be in deep fried chip format?
I do think many of these "diets" are born out of desperation, when nothing else works for your particular ailment, you try other things until you find something that does


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> Have to agree that lumping veganism in with the extreme diet bloggers is far from helpful and it is a real shame it's happened. Whatever it was I watched highlighted the lack of (or bogus) qualifications of bloggers who advocated the most ridiculously restrictive diets and who made the most fantastical claims.


So was the horizon programme on clean living I linked not the programme you meant?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> Here's an example of the sort of thing I mean
> 
> Freelee The Banana Girl who promotes a raw vegan diet of 15 bananas, 40 pieces of fruit and a couple of kilograms of potatoes a day. She claims that eating this way has cured her weight issues, depression, irritable bowel syndrome, chronic fatigue, poor digestion and acne.
> 
> I can't think of any parent would be happy for their child to live on that but why did the word 'vegan' creep into the description? I don't think any vegans I know would advocate that diet.


I know of quite a few people via forums for WFPB who have eaten just potatoes for a prolonged period of time and done just fine health wise, there was a guy recently who did it for a year and lost weight/regained his health


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Clean eating is when you accidentally drop your dinner on the floor and wipe it before putting it back on the plate , 

( sorry for spoiling a serious thread  )


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Clean eating is when you accidentally drop your dinner on the floor and wipe it before putting it back on the plate ,
> 
> ( sorry for spoiling a serious thread  )


Definitely my favourite reply!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

15 bananas is a bit overboard. 40 pieces of fruit depends on how big the pieces are and what fruit, tomatoes are fruit too. Plus potatoes. Tbh this doesn't sound that bad a diet to me.  Just potatoes does though. I don't think a person can eat many dry potatoes and it doesn't mention sauces, or drinks in the picture. I can't watch the videos atm.

When my hubby was a child, his mother took him to the doctor because he'd only eat chips with ketchup. The doctor told her not worry and that's all he ate for a long time, over a year I think. Ahead of his time. :Hilarious


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't think it was that Horizon programme Rottie. I think it was longer ago and I'm wondering if it was something on Netflix or the like.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> there was a guy recently who did it for a year and lost weight/regained his health


Good for him but does this mean it would be responsible to promote it as a cure all diet for teenage girls? It's when it's wrapped up with body image and teenage angst that such fads become a worry, especially as it seems to be affecting children younger and younger.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> I don't think it was that Horizon programme Rottie. I think it was longer ago and I'm wondering if it was something on Netflix or the like.
> 
> Good for him but does this mean it would be responsible to promote it as a cure all diet for teenage girls? It's when it's wrapped up with body image and teenage angst that such fads become a worry, especially as it seems to be affecting children younger and younger.


No, I'm not suggesting anyone promote it as a cure all diet for anyone. I was just pointing out that living on fruit and potatoes isn't necessarily unhealthy and is certainly an improvement on the crap a lot of people call food today.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think that article is quite misleading. Nothing wrong with clean eating, its certainly better then an unhealthy diet filled with sugar and booze!
Frankly I think they should be concentrating on the more important point of how easily teenagers can get sucked into on-line fads and crazes. Most of us are sensible enough to just pick out the good bits of blogs and ignore the rest but teenagers are highly suggestible and respond to peer pressure. Its not just food either, makes me think of that social media craze in Russia that encouraged kids to kill themselves.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Is n't veganism an 'extreme diet' though? No meat, no dairy, only fruit and veg basically?? If a child/teenager refused to eat anything other than a plate of salad/veg wouldn't you be concerned they were developing an eating disorder cos they are cutting whole food groups out? (fish, meat, dairy)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> Frankly I think they should be concentrating on the more important point of how easily teenagers can get sucked into on-line fads and crazes


I agree this is the crux of the matter and I do believe it's what those who are dealing with the unfortunate results intend. Unfortunately they can't dictate what a journalist understands or what a sub editor decides to print.



Phoenix Rising said:


> Is n't veganism an 'extreme diet' though?


And here we see why such fads can be defended. The vegans I know are extremely knowledgeable about nutrition. The bloggers I've seen pushing fad diets are not. Lumping the two things together as one can mean vegans feel the need to defend the fadists (is that a word )


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

havoc said:


> 15 bananas, 40 pieces of fruit and a couple of kilograms of potatoes a day


 She'll need to potatoes to block herself up after all that fruit LOL Why not go the whole hog and become a Breatharian


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

havoc said:


> 15 bananas, 40 pieces of fruit and a couple of kilograms of potatoes a day..


Doesnt sound that bad. Banana custard, fruit with ice cream, a couple of kilograms of cheesey, buttery mash potato!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Is n't veganism an 'extreme diet' though? No meat, no dairy, only fruit and veg basically?? If a child/teenager refused to eat anything other than a plate of salad/veg wouldn't you be concerned they were developing an eating disorder cos they are cutting whole food groups out? (fish, meat, dairy)


You seem to have forgotten all the other things vegans eat..... Beans, legumes, pulses, grains, tofu, the vast array of meat/ dairy substitutes etc. Vegans DO NOT subsist on fruit and veg alone.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Is n't veganism an 'extreme diet' though? No meat, no dairy, only fruit and veg basically?? If a child/teenager refused to eat anything other than a plate of salad/veg wouldn't you be concerned they were developing an eating disorder cos they are cutting whole food groups out? (fish, meat, dairy)


You've really surprised me with that comment given you have participated in and presumably read the plant based thread  A vegan diet is much healthier for children and teenagers than the standard junk food and heavily processed diet many go for. Being vegan does not mean only eating a plate of salad and veg as @Lexiedhb has said above and I've explained to you a few times now it consists of fruit, veg, wholegrains, legumes (pulses) nuts and seeds which provide all nutrients needed apart from Vit B12 which needs to be taken in supplement form. Cutting out fish, meat and dairy is not of concern - its of benefit as it gets rids of animal protein, saturated fat, growth factors/hormones, heavy bacterial loads, toxins such as mercury (as found in a lot of fish particularly tuna) plus its kinder to animals and the environment


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

That's the logic of this generation I'm afraid. Some of these internet celebrity people have cult followings-some time ago, out of interest, I had a look around what was popular on Youtube. There were numerous videos about cats, gaming, news and celebrities, which was to be expected. But, to my surprise, there were also a number of videos regarding diet. Several videos promoted things like "fruitarianism". This generation's obsession with diet baffles me.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I remember doing the egg and grapefruit diet and cabbage soup diet many years ago, but it wasn't until my very late teens/early 20's and tbh neither lasted very long.

It was simply to shed a few excess pounds attributed to too many late night takeaways following copious amounts of sugary alcohol and the fact my jeans were getting too tight!

I think the difference now is that kids are becoming concerned about weight/size/looks at a much earlier age, which turns into obsession, fuelled by the media etc. and celebrities, selfies, social media, fake boobs, lips etc. Often too, they don't actually have a weight problem to start with.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> I remember doing the egg and grapefruit diet and cabbage soup diet many years ago, but it wasn't until my very late teens/early 20's and tbh neither lasted very long.
> 
> It was simply to shed a few excess pounds attributed to too many late night takeaways following copious amounts of sugary alcohol and the fact my jeans were getting too tight!
> 
> I think the difference now is that kids are becoming concerned about weight/size/looks at a much earlier age, which turns into obsession, fuelled by the media etc. and celebrities, selfies, social media, fake boobs, lips etc. Often too, they don't actually have a weight problem to start with.


I remember reading an article, ages ago, about how so many more kids are presenting with mental health issues, and the majority is down to Instagram etc. They live their lives to get as many likes as possible for their photos, but this also leaves them wide open for online bullying.

I think I'm glad that I'm not a mum in this day and age, it would terrify me to think that my child was living with that amount of pressure every day.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You've really surprised me with that comment given you have participated in and presumably read the plant based thread  A vegan diet is much healthier for children and teenagers than the standard junk food and heavily processed diet many go for. Being vegan does not mean only eating a plate of salad and veg as @Lexiedhb has said above and I've explained to you a few times now it consists of fruit, veg, wholegrains, legumes (pulses) nuts and seeds which provide all nutrients needed apart from Vit B12 which needs to be taken in supplement form. Cutting out fish, meat and dairy is not of concern - its of benefit as it gets rids of animal protein, saturated fat, growth factors/hormones, heavy bacterial loads, toxins such as mercury (as found in a lot of fish particularly tuna) plus its kinder to animals and the environment


I don't mean it as an insulting comment but if people are saying that extreme diets is when people are cutting out whole food groups, then technically wouldn't a vegan diet qualify as an 'extreme diet'? You're still cutting out two whole food groups, meat and dairy? Or does it only become an extreme diet if they are also cutting out carbs? or only have ONE food item like the potato diet man? ...or depend on whether they're trying to aim for 1,000 cals or less a day regardless of what products they eat? WHAT exactly makes a diet 'extreme'?

and yes I'm still trying to eat more healthily myself and include more meat free meals into my week. Got a day off today as hospital appointment later so gonna have a go at veggie lasagne before I go,so it just needs sticking in the oven when I get back from the hospital. Doing it with Beanfast Bolognaise with mixed beans,carrot, onion and mushroom mixed in to make a 'bolognaise sauce'.

I have allergies to nuts and seeds so can't use them as a protein source. I do use eggs and don't see anything wrong with eggs from happy free range hens though trying to cut down on yoghurts and cheese (more due to higher calorie/fat content,than because their made from animal products).


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> You seem to have forgotten all the other things vegans eat..... Beans, legumes, pulses, grains, tofu, the vast array of meat/ dairy substitutes etc. Vegans DO NOT subsist on fruit and veg alone.


I know there are meat and dairy substitutes but a vegan is still cutting out 2 food groups, meat and dairy (as in products made from animals). Are Rice, and oat milks, vegan cheeses etc still counted as dairy? I thought the meaning of 'dairy' was that it was made from animal products? (cows milk etc) What is Tofu made from?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I don't mean it as an insulting comment but if people are saying that extreme diets is when people are cutting out whole food groups, then technically wouldn't a vegan diet qualify as an 'extreme diet'? You're still cutting out two whole food groups, meat and dairy? Or does it only become an extreme diet if they are also cutting out carbs? or only have ONE food item like the potato diet man? ...or depend on whether they're trying to aim for 1,000 cals or less a day regardless of what products they eat? WHAT exactly makes a diet 'extreme'?
> 
> and yes I'm still trying to eat more healthily myself and include more meat free meals into my week. Got a day off today as hospital appointment later so gonna have a go at veggie lasagne before I go,so it just needs sticking in the oven when I get back from the hospital. Doing it with Beanfast Bolognaise with mixed beans,carrot, onion and mushroom mixed in to make a 'bolognaise sauce'.
> 
> I have allergies to nuts and seeds so can't use them as a protein source. I do use eggs and don't see anything wrong with eggs from happy free range hens though trying to cut down on yoghurts and cheese (more due to higher calorie/fat content,than because their made from animal products).





Phoenix Rising said:


> I know there are meat and dairy substitutes but a vegan is still cutting out 2 food groups, meat and dairy (as in products made from animals). Are Rice, and oat milks, vegan cheeses etc still counted as dairy? I thought the meaning of 'dairy' was that it was made from animal products? (cows milk etc) What is Tofu made from?


I don't think there is an accepted definition of what makes an "extreme" diet. So what if you are cutting out meat and dairy? how does that matter as long as you can obtain the nutrients and calories you require which you can (with the exception of B12) but without all the unwanted packaging that meat and dairy come with as outlined in my previous post to you. I love the way some people consider a dietary change to be extreme but they don't find having to undergo surgery to clear out blockages in your arteries to be extreme or children as young as 10 already having atherosclerotic plaques extreme or needing laxatives for constipation extreme.

Please do some research into the egg industry - there is plenty of information out there about how chickens are reared (even in free range establishments), what happens to the unwanted male chicks (gassed or macerated while alive) and slaughter when they are no longer productive. Please also read up about the amount of cholesterol in eggs.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2016nl/jan/eggindustry.htm

A 50-year study of nearly 2,000 middle-aged men (the Western Electric Study) found that a dietary reduction in cholesterol intake of 430 mg/dL (the same as two eggs) was associated with a 43% reduction in long-term risk of coronary heart disease, a 25% reduction of risk of death from all causes, and three years longer life expectancy. In addition to heart disease, a higher cholesterol intake was also associated with more risk for strokes, blood clots, high blood pressure, and cancers of the breast, prostate, colon, lung, and brain.

Cholesterol is the most damaging to our arteries when it is present in an oxidized form (as free radicals). Eggs and egg-derived products are the main source of oxidized cholesterol in our diet.

Two eggs daily will mean a 6% increase in cholesterol (12 mg/dL) and 12% more heart disease over the next 5 to 10 years. For young adult men, indulgence in two eggs daily means 30% more coronary heart disease over their lifetime.

No vegan milks and cheeses are not counted as dairy - dairy comes from animals. Tofu is made from soya beans.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> Doesnt sound that bad. Banana custard, fruit with ice cream, a couple of kilograms of cheesey, buttery mash potato!


 I have a feeling you haven't quite got it. Though I'm in total agreement LOL


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think there is an accepted definition of what makes an "extreme" diet. So what if you are cutting out meat and dairy? how does that matter as long as you can obtain the nutrients and calories you require which you can (with the exception of B12) but without all the unwanted packaging that meat and dairy come with as outlined in my previous post to you. I love the way some people consider a dietary change to be extreme but they don't find having to undergo surgery to clear out blockages in your arteries to be extreme or children as young as 10 already having atherosclerotic plaques extreme or needing laxatives for constipation extreme.
> 
> Please do some research into the egg industry - there is plenty of information out there about how chickens are reared (even in free range establishments), what happens to the unwanted male chicks (gassed or macerated while alive) and slaughter when they are no longer productive. Please also read up about the amount of cholesterol in eggs.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about eggs

https://heartuk.org.uk/cholesterol-and-diet/low-cholesterol-diets-and-foods/can-i-eat-eggs

https://www.bhf.org.uk/news-from-the-bhf/news-archive/2015/may/eggs-and-cholesterol


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about eggs
> 
> https://heartuk.org.uk/cholesterol-and-diet/low-cholesterol-diets-and-foods/can-i-eat-eggs
> 
> https://www.bhf.org.uk/news-from-the-bhf/news-archive/2015/may/eggs-and-cholesterol


Yep, there is plenty of research out there saying eggs are good for you - trouble is most of it is funded by the egg council 

From the article I linked to above

In the past two decades, the American Egg Board and the Egg Nutrition Center have become increasingly active in using research to increase demand for eggs. Of the 41 studies on dietary cholesterol included in a 1992 meta-analysis, 29% were paid for by industry, mainly the egg industry. Nine years later, in a 2001 meta-analysis, that figure had risen to 41%. Two decades later, in a 2013 review, the figure was 92%. The food industry now dominates research on dietary cholesterol.

The egg industry, through researchers at Tufts (University)/USDA Center, have an overshadowing influence on the DGAC. The Tufts/USDA Center researchers excluded all studies published prior to 2003. Of the 12 studies that they included, eight were funded by the American Egg Board through the Egg Nutrition Center, two were funded by British and Australian egg industry associations, and the eleventh was funded by the fish industry in defense of prawn consumption. In other words, 11 out of the 12 cited studies were designed to arrive at a specific pro-industry result.

Despite their industry-related funding, nearly every cited study showed that eggs or other cholesterol-containing foods had an unfavorable effect on blood cholesterol levels. Nevertheless, John Griffin and Dr. Alice Lichtenstein (Egg industry associated DGAC members) concluded that the effect of dietary cholesterol on plasma lipid concentrations "is modest and appears to be limited to population subgroups."


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.drfuhrman.com/learn/library/articles/58/are-eggs-healthy-learn-the-truth

a few points for those who don't like to open links

In addition, The Physicians' Health Study reported a 23 percent increase in death risk in those who ate more than one egg/day.4

Alarmingly, these studies consistently found that diabetics (who are already at increased risk) who ate more eggs did increase their risk by a lot. The Nurses' Health Study, The Health Professionals Follow-up Study, and The Physicians' Health Study reported that diabetics who ate more than one egg/day;doubled their cardiovascular disease or death risk compared to diabetics that ate less than one egg per week.5,6 A Greek study of diabetics reported a five-fold increase in cardiovascular death risk in those eating one egg/day or more.7

Collectively from this data, we can conclude that eggs are likely only to be dangerous in large quantities (more than one egg/day) for healthy individuals, but could be more problematic for populations at risk of cardiovascular disease, such as diabetics. Interestingly, eating five eggs per week or more is also associated with an increased risk of developing type 2 diabetes (as well as prostate cancer).8,9


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yep, there is plenty of research out there saying eggs are good for you - trouble is most of it is funded by the egg council
> 
> From the article I linked to above
> 
> ...


Are you honestly saying that the British Heart Foundation is linked to the Egg Council?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Elles said:


> 15 bananas is a bit overboard. 40 pieces of fruit depends on how big the pieces are and what fruit, tomatoes are fruit too. Plus potatoes.


Did you mean fruit, including tomatoes and potatoes, or potatoes and fruit including tomatoes?

Potatoes are of course tubers, energy stores for the plant, not fruit, which surround seeds and assist their dispersal by the correct species of animal.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Is n't veganism an 'extreme diet' though? No meat, no dairy, only fruit and veg basically?? If a child/teenager refused to eat anything other than a plate of salad/veg wouldn't you be concerned they were developing an eating disorder cos they are cutting whole food groups out? (fish, meat, dairy)


No not at all, plus veganism isn't just fruit and veg, you also have grains, nuts, seeds, legumes, fungi. If I cut out animals products, my diet would change very little really.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> Did you mean fruit, including tomatoes and potatoes, or potatoes and fruit including tomatoes?
> 
> Potatoes are of course tubers, energy stores for the plant, not fruit, which surround seeds and assist their dispersal by the correct species of animal.


Sorry I don't quite get what you're saying? The diet talked about said fruit and potatoes. I didn't think it was that bad. Are you saying that I posted that potatoes are fruit? :Wideyed


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I know there are meat and dairy substitutes but a vegan is still cutting out 2 food groups, meat and dairy (as in products made from animals). Are Rice, and oat milks, vegan cheeses etc still counted as dairy? I thought the meaning of 'dairy' was that it was made from animal products? (cows milk etc) What is Tofu made from?


Why would rice milk and oat milk be called dairy, they aren't made of dairy products. Tofu is soya.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Are you honestly saying that the British Heart Foundation is linked to the Egg Council?


I'm saying that the majority of research carried out is funded by the egg council, or the American equivalent so when charities give advice about consuming certain foods they often do that based on the available research but that research is often tainted because of who funded it. Also many charities are sponsored by big food and pharma, I can't find the list of industry sponsors for the BHF on their website so I have no idea how much, if any, that particular charity take from the food industry.

Can highly recommend this film which is available on Netflix I believe as it explains the links between charities and industry much better than I can


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I know there are meat and dairy substitutes but a vegan is still cutting out 2 food groups, meat and dairy (as in products made from animals). Are Rice, and oat milks, vegan cheeses etc still counted as dairy? I thought the meaning of 'dairy' was that it was made from animal products? (cows milk etc) What is Tofu made from?


I find it REALLY odd that adult humans drink another animals milk once weaned..... Tofu is bean curd - oat milk etc are clearly not dairy products. So no I don't think veganism to be extreme, anymore than vegetarians, low carbers, low fatters etc.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

I know where they make mass produced eggs they kill the male chickens. I now buy my eggs from a local lady who has her own chickens, she doesn't personally kill loads of male chickens and her hens are very well looked after and happy. I thought the cholesteral thing had been disproved? 
on NHS website it says:

"Although eggs contain cholesterol, the amount of saturated fat we eat has more effect on the amount of cholesterol in our blood than the cholesterol we get from eating eggs"

I only buy a small pack and have egg 1-2 times a week. I do find the full vegan diet very restrictive, especially eating out, most places even if they do a vegetarian pasta dish the pasta is regular pasta which contains egg. Unless you go to a veggie restaurant which is usually more expensive. I come from a family of meat eaters and where you ate what you was put in front of you and were grateful you had food! (my dad was a miner in the 80's when the miners strikes were on and pits closing and we had no money for months, without extended family coming to our aid we'd have had days with no meals or food in the house at all). so were never encouraged to be 'fussy' about food. 
Clean eating then was fresh fruit and vegetables from family members allotments. We had alot of potato pies, cheese and onion pies, vegetable soups, milk, cheese and egg cooked in the oven, homemade bread and jam ...meat was a luxury for a while when family donated a tin of corned beef or something, until my dad managed to get another job. I can't tell you how thrilled we were to have our first roast chicken for dinner that my dad had bought himself with his wages again!

I think even if meat goes up drastically after Brexit, as a family we would probably club together to make sure we at least had something for a sunday roast every couple of weeks. Meat may become an occasional treat if it gets so expensive but I can't see me suddenly not liking the taste of chicken and turkey.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Vanessa131 said:


> Why would rice milk and oat milk be called dairy, they aren't made of dairy products. Tofu is soya.


I wasn't sure if they were classing anything called 'milk' or 'cheese' as dairy or whether it had to specifically come from an animal. I don't know anything the vegan milks/yoghurts/cheeses having never tried them.

oh I did try that oatily chocolate milk once which I have to admit made a lovely hot chocolate, but didn't like the regular oat milk in tea.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Elles said:


> Sorry I don't quite get what you're saying? The diet talked about said fruit and potatoes. I didn't think it was that bad. Are you saying that I posted that potatoes are fruit? :Wideyed


It seemed to read that way. I was just clarifying, didn't think you'd make that mistake.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Are Rice, and oat milks, vegan cheeses etc still counted as dairy?


Obviously not. Dairy means "containing milk" and the products you named don't contain anything derived from animals.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm saying that the majority of research carried out is funded by the egg council, or the American equivalent so when charities give advice about consuming certain foods they often do that based on the available research but that research is often tainted because of who funded it. Also many charities are sponsored by big food and pharma, I can't find the list of industry sponsors for the BHF on their website so I have no idea how much, if any, that particular charity take from the food industry.
> 
> Can highly recommend this film which is available on Netflix I believe as it explains the links between charities and industry much better than I can


I'm sorry, but I'm far more inclined to believe that the BHF have our best interests at heart over a Netflix documentary.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm far more inclined to believe that the BHF have our best interests at heart over a Netflix documentary.


Its not a netflix documentary - its an independent film that has only just become available on Netflix. I'm not suggesting every single thing they say is true and I've watched reviews/analysis of it good and bad but it does raise some important issues about the independence of medical charities and the advice they give. For instance osteoporosis charities receiving a good deal of sponsorship from the dairy industry/yoghurt companies means they are less likely to tell people about the risks of consuming dairy. They gave a lot of interviews earlier this year about young women cutting dairy from their diets and the risks of getting osteoporosis/fractures as a result but it wasn't until a more knowledgeable presenter challenged them on how people with dairy intolerance manage that they admitted it was perfectly possible to get the necessary nutrients without consuming dairy and when pushed further discussed what foods also provide those nutrients other than dairy. Money talks I'm afraid and the food industry has plenty of that to buy favour with.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its not a netflix documentary - its an independent film that has only just become available on Netflix. I'm not suggesting every single thing they say is true and I've watched reviews/analysis of it good and bad but it does raise some important issues about the independence of medical charities and the advice they give. For instance osteoporosis charities receiving a good deal of sponsorship from the dairy industry/yoghurt companies means they are less likely to tell people about the risks of consuming dairy. They gave a lot of interviews earlier this year about young women cutting dairy from their diets and the risks of getting osteoporosis/fractures as a result but it wasn't until a more knowledgeable presenter challenged them on how people with dairy intolerance manage that they admitted it was perfectly possible to get the necessary nutrients without consuming dairy and when pushed further discussed what foods also provide those nutrients other than dairy. Money talks I'm afraid and the food industry has plenty of that to buy favour with.


Surely you could be willing to consider that, despite your beliefs, some charities aren't out to fudge the data and kill us - they really do want what is best


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its not a netflix documentary - its an independent film that has only just become available on Netflix. I'm not suggesting every single thing they say is true and I've watched reviews/analysis of it good and bad but it does raise some important issues about the independence of medical charities and the advice they give. For instance osteoporosis charities receiving a good deal of sponsorship from the dairy industry/yoghurt companies means they are less likely to tell people about the risks of consuming dairy. They gave a lot of interviews earlier this year about young women cutting dairy from their diets and the risks of getting osteoporosis/fractures as a result but it wasn't until a more knowledgeable presenter challenged them on how people with dairy intolerance manage that they admitted it was perfectly possible to get the necessary nutrients without consuming dairy and when pushed further discussed what foods also provide those nutrients other than dairy. Money talks I'm afraid and the food industry has plenty of that to buy favour with.


I never realised dairy industry sponsored charities like osteoporosis to stop them from saying dairy is bad for you! 

We were always told milk was good for your bones and teeth cos of the calcium in it! Schools used to get free milk. Seems the whole country is corrupt these days not just our govt! It's not surprising though people are confused about what's good for them and what's not! One minute something is the best thing since sliced bread, then when you've been eating it years suddenly they found it's not!... few years later.. it's not as bad for you as people think...or is it???? Then you get these old folk who've been living on a traditional meat and 2 veg diet all their lives with a few beers or sherries (daily or weekly) and live past 100! ..on the very diet's we're told will shorten our lives! anyone else confused?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Surely you could be willing to consider that, despite your beliefs, some charities aren't out to fudge the data and kill us - they really do want what is best


Goodness I haven't said that charities are out to fudge data and kill us just that they don't necessarily offer independent advice or follow the latest research and might well avoid offering advice if it will be detrimental to their sponsors. In an earlier post I explained how scientists who are employed by or funded by certain industries (food/big pharma) do studies which are not well designed, would not pass peer review, are funded by industry etc and get them into the less reputable journals - these are then picked up by journalists/bloggers without actually reading the study or understanding it or checking who funded it. The articles I linked to include references to studies whereas the two links you provided to the charities are just pages offering advice about eggs and cholesterol without offering any studies to back them up.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I never realised dairy industry sponsored charities like osteoporosis to stop them from saying dairy is bad for you!
> 
> We were always told milk was good for your bones and teeth cos of the calcium in it! Schools used to get free milk. Seems the whole country is corrupt these days not just our govt! It's not surprising though people are confused about what's good for them and what's not! One minute something is the best thing since sliced bread, then when you've been eating it years suddenly they found it's not!... few years later.. it's not as bad for you as people think...or is it???? Then you get these old folk who've been living on a traditional meat and 2 veg diet all their lives with a few beers or sherries (daily or weekly) and live past 100! ..on the very diet's we're told will shorten our lives! anyone else confused?


I'm sure they don't sponsor charities *just* to stop them from saying something is bad for you but it can obviously influence the type of advice given. I'm also not saying the whole country is corrupt, years ago experts did believe that milk was good for you but science moves on and research shows milk is not such a healthy food as once thought. The countries with the lowest dairy intake actually have the lowest levels of osteoporosis and fractures but don't expect the dairy industry to tell you that. Of course some people live to 100 eating a diet of meat and 2 veg - that diet is/was far healthier than the current load of processed food and takeaways many people consume today. Fat/saturated fat and calories have been steadily rising for years too. If you look hard enough you will find plenty of smokers without lung cancer too - doesn't mean smoking is healthy does it?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

No matter what the research it's always important to follow the money and it isn't always an obvious trail. Sometimes it isn't straight money, it can be a donated piece of equipment. It isn't that researchers fudge the results, it's that whoever is paying sets the parameters and if you're the one controlling that then you can almost guarantee to control the results.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I never realised dairy industry sponsored charities like osteoporosis to stop them from saying dairy is bad for you!
> We were always told milk was good for your bones and teeth cos of the calcium in it!


I dont think its uncommon for big businesses to skew research in their favour. Alot of training for various professional bodies (vets, drs, etc) is sponsored by companies with a vested interest.

and TBF milk is good for you.....its just not the only option! Saying we need meat and dairy as major food groups is kind of missing the point. What we really need is protein and calcium and you can get that from other sources. In fact most breakfast cereal, bread and plant milks are fortified so you arent missing out on anything.
(its weird how they stress that dairy will help prevent osteoporosis but hardly anyone mentions that getting up off your arse is equally beneficial! or in other words weight bearing exercise strengthens bones!).


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Goodness I haven't said that charities are out to fudge data and kill us just that they don't necessarily offer independent advice or follow the latest research and might well avoid offering advice if it will be detrimental to their sponsors. In an earlier post I explained how scientists who are employed by or funded by certain industries (food/big pharma) do studies which are not well designed, would not pass peer review, are funded by industry etc and get them into the less reputable journals - these are then picked up by journalists/bloggers without actually reading the study or understanding it or checking who funded it. The articles I linked to include references to studies whereas the two links you provided to the charities are just pages offering advice about eggs and cholesterol without offering any studies to back them up.


Do you not think that heart and cholesterol health charities would check the data before offering advice?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The countries with the lowest dairy intake actually have the lowest levels of osteoporosis and fractures but don't expect the dairy industry to tell you that.


Is it a simple correlation? Does a low dairy intake help prevent osteoporosis or are there other factors?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry, but if you have to take anything in pill form to supplement your diet then it's not a healthy diet


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rona said:


> Sorry, but if you have to take anything in pill form to supplement your diet then it's not a healthy diet


Thoroughly agree


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Do you not think that heart and cholesterol health charities would check the data before offering advice?


Do you not accept that charities are influenced by their sponsors? Do you have blind faith in everything they tell you?



havoc said:


> Is it a simple correlation? Does a low dairy intake help prevent osteoporosis or are there other factors?


Not sure - will get my books out later on when I have more time and come back to you.



rona said:


> Sorry, but if you have to take anything in pill form to supplement your diet then it's not a healthy diet


You do realise a lot of people over 50 are B12 deficient whether they are vegan or not? In the US the government recommends the over 50's and anyone taking anti acids (to control stomach acid) to supplement B12. B12 comes from dirt and bacteria. I would far rather take a B12 supplement and get all the other multi health benefits of being WFPB than eat all the unpleasant packaging that comes with eating meat and dairy.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Thoroughly agree


So you've never taken a supplement? or eaten foods fortified with vitamins or minerals?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Do you not accept that charities are influenced by their sponsors? Do you have blind faith in everything they tell you?
> 
> Not sure - will get my books out later on when I have more time and come back to you.
> 
> You do realise a lot of people over 50 are B12 deficient whether they are vegan or not? In the US the government recommends the over 50's and anyone taking anti acids (to control stomach acid) to supplement B12. B12 comes from dirt and bacteria. I would far rather take a B12 supplement and get all the other multi health benefits of being WFPB than eat all the unpleasant packaging that comes with eating meat and dairy.


In the cases of these charities - yes. And you yourself admitted that you couldn't find any mention of BHF donors, so you are now assuming that they are pandering to the Egg Society, who may, or may not be their donors.

I'm sorry, I really respect your views and why you are a vegan, but when you choose to denigrate a good charity's reputation with absolutely no evidence, then I start losing respect.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So you've never taken a supplement? or eaten foods fortified with vitamins or minerals?


I take supplements because I know my diet sucks


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You do realise a lot of people over 50 are B12 deficient whether they are vegan or not?


Approx 10%, however that's nothing to do with diet, but the inability to absorb cobalamin.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yep, there is plenty of research out there saying eggs are good for you - trouble is most of it is funded by the egg council





rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm saying that the majority of research carried out is funded by the egg council, or the American equivalent so when charities give advice about consuming certain foods they often do that based on the available research but that research is often tainted because of who funded it. Also many charities are sponsored by big food and pharma, I can't find the list of industry sponsors for the BHF on their website so I have no idea how much, if any, that particular charity take from the foo





rottiepointerhouse said:


> Goodness I haven't said that charities are out to fudge data and kill us just that they don't necessarily offer independent advice or follow the latest research and might well avoid offering advice if it will be detrimental to their sponsors.





MiffyMoo said:


> In the cases of these charities - yes. And you yourself admitted that you couldn't find any mention of BHF donors, so you are now assuming that they are pandering to the Egg Society, who may, or may not be their donors.
> 
> Oh dear. @MiffyMoo above are the 3 quotes I made to you about charities - where have I denigrated a good charities reputation with no evidence? When I said I could not find their sponsors that is quite common - it often takes quite a lot of digging around in accounts to find who charities accept large donations/sponsorship from, its not always there on their websites and I haven't had the time or inclination to look further. I have not said whether either of the charities you quoted are sponsored by the egg industry but I have quoted evidence to you that the vast majority of research into cholesterol/eggs and health is funded by the egg industry - I've given you the figures showing exactly how much too which I note you haven't commented on. The links you provided do not offer any evidence to support their claims that eggs are OK but I have offered you links to scientific research showing the effects on cholesterol levels and risk of heart disease - one of the pages I linked was an analysis of the research and wasn't entirely anti eggs. Did you read any of it?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> I take supplements because I know my diet sucks


OK so why criticise a diet that doesn't suck - that is healthy but lacks one nutrient?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> Approx 10%, however that's nothing to do with diet, but the inability to absorb cobalamin.


Where did I say it was because of diet? I asked you if you knew that many over 50's are B12 deficient. I find it interesting that you think a diet needing to take a pill isn't healthy - how many meat and dairy eaters need to take statins and high blood pressure medication? Is that preferable to taking a vitamin then?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

You quite clearly said that charities are influenced by their sponsors.

Exactly how would you like me to respond to the data? I'm not a scientist, but I do have faith that the charities would not put potentially lethal information out there.

I am on my phone, so can't do the intensive research you seem to expect. But putting in a simple Eggs + Cholesterol search comes up with many institutions, including the NHS, Mayo Clinic and Harvard who say exactly the same as I have posted.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> OK so why criticise a diet that doesn't suck - that is healthy but lacks one nutrient?


Two totally different things. If I bothered to cook meals that were nutritionally balanced, I would have no need for supplements. As it is, I have to force myself into the kitchen, so pasta and pesto is pretty much a staple of my diet, hence the vitamin supplement.

Your diet, however much effort you put into it, is still lacking


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

For anyone interested in knowing more about Vit B12 deficiency - @rona you may learn something from it

https://pernicious-anaemia-society.org/b12deficiencyandperniciousanaemia/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> You quite clearly said that charities are influenced by their sponsors.
> 
> Exactly how would you like me to respond to the data? I'm not a scientist, but I do have faith that the charities would not put potentially lethal information out there.
> 
> I am on my phone, so can't do the intensive research you seem to expect. But putting in a simple Eggs + Cholesterol search comes up with many institutions, including the NHS, Mayo Clinic and Harvard who say exactly the same as I have posted.


I don't expect you to do any research other than take a look at the links I provided and comment on the evidence about the number of studies funded by the egg industry.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Short video

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/who-says-eggs-arent-healthy-or-safe/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Two totally different things. If I bothered to cook meals that were nutritionally balanced, I would have no need for supplements. As it is, I have to force myself into the kitchen, so pasta and pesto is pretty much a staple of my diet, hence the vitamin supplement.
> 
> Your diet, however much effort you put into it, is still lacking


Yes it is lacking in Vit B12. Where do animals get B12 from which you then get when you eat them? From soil. So if I were to eat organic veggies and not bother to wash them properly I could ditch the B12 but I'm not particularly into eating dirt so I'll stick to my one supplement.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes it is lacking in Vit B12. Where do animals get B12 from which you then get when you eat them? From soil. So if I were to eat organic veggies and not bother to wash them properly I could ditch the B12 but I'm not particularly into eating dirt so I'll stick to my one supplement.


And therein lies the beautiful circle of life


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I can see lots of pages and 'debates' here but I just wanted to stick in my point of view as someone whose been through anorexia and bulimia and say that it's only a heathy eating if you have a good mental engagement with food. What really worries me about 'gurus' is that if they don't use the term 'clean' eating now, many have done before and it can lead to a huge distortion between what is right and wrong. Even Slimming World uses the term 'sin' when one of their main staples - Muller Light - contains huge amounts of sugar. A diet of banana is unnecessary and ludicrous and it's frightening how easily anyone of any gender can be seduced. A blogger is rarely an expert but seemingly more appealing than an NHS website.

For me clean eating is a positive mental engagement, not being obsessive and caring about the welfare of what we eat with a lot of thought to our planet with the packaging and the food miles. I do take a supplement because of my past problems, constant battles and recent issues which have left me with an iron deficiency.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@MiffyMoo

here is the sponsors/partners page from BHF which isn't too bad but does have some food industry input such as Tesco/Adsa/M & S/Best Western/Flora

https://www.bhf.org.uk/get-involved/how-your-company-can-help/our-corporate-partners


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Where did I say it was because of diet? I asked you if you knew that many over 50's are B12 deficient. I find it interesting that you think a diet needing to take a pill isn't healthy - how many meat and dairy eaters need to take statins and high blood pressure medication? Is that preferable to taking a vitamin then?


How many vegans do? It's not all down to diet


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> For anyone interested in knowing more about Vit B12 deficiency - @rona you may learn something from it
> 
> https://pernicious-anaemia-society.org/b12deficiencyandperniciousanaemia/


As I said, not normally diet related in the over 50s


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I really do admire those who can happily eat a vegan diet as it is something I know I would really struggle with. However, I am taken aback at the suggestion @rottiepointerhouse that cutting out fish, for instance, is of benefit. I think this sort of statement verges on the issue of the 'clean eating' bloggers who are dismissive of other people's valid, healthy diet choices.

I think the important thing to bear in mind when discussing diets is that there is no 'one size fits all' approach. My OH for instance can hardly tolerate any sugar so avoids fruit altogether and eats a high fat low carb diet. Since doing so, his cholesterol has significantly lowered and he has lost around three stone. He researched this diet really quite thoroughly however I would be concerned if he used this research to convince others that it' the 'best' diet as it's clearly not - there are so many other options.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

bearcub said:


> However, I am taken aback at the suggestion @rottiepointerhouse that cutting out fish, for instance, is of benefit. I


Im pretty sure that the fish benefit!

All this talk of B12 though made me fancy marmite on toast. :Shy


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Im pretty sure that the fish benefit!
> 
> All this talk of B12 though made me fancy marmite on toast. :Shy


Ha ha good point


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I really do admire those who can happily eat a vegan diet as it is something I know I would really struggle with. However, I am taken aback at the suggestion @rottiepointerhouse that cutting out fish, for instance, is of benefit. I think this sort of statement verges on the issue of the 'clean eating' bloggers who are dismissive of other people's valid, healthy diet choices.
> 
> I think the important thing to bear in mind when discussing diets is that there is no 'one size fits all' approach. My OH for instance can hardly tolerate any sugar so avoids fruit altogether and eats a high fat low carb diet. Since doing so, his cholesterol has significantly lowered and he has lost around three stone. He researched this diet really quite thoroughly however I would be concerned if he used this research to convince others that it' the 'best' diet as it's clearly not - there are so many other options.


I remember we had this discussion before and a good debate about the best diet for diabetics  I could spend the next hour trawling through my files and bringing up all the research that shows those who don't eat animal products have lower cholesterol, lower blood pressure, lower weight, take less medications, suffer from less chronic illnesses but I know I'm wasting my time. Thats fine as I've said before I'm not out to change the world so I'll just carry on throwing my five pennyworth in and being glad that some people are interested enough to pm me with questions, give being plant based a try and read/watch some of the videos and articles I've linked to.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> How many vegans do? It's not all down to diet


If I thought you were actually interested Rona I would get you the figures from the available research but I know you are not as we've had this discussion before and as you also know I'm not talking about "vegans" but WFPB.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> If I thought you were actually interested Rona I would get you the figures from the available research but I know you are not as we've had this discussion before and as you also know I'm not talking about "vegans" but WFPB.


Even if Rona isn't, I am. 

This thread isn't about veganism though, so I find it's a shame that veganism has been dragged into scrutiny alongside this. As for "clean eating", I don't know enough about it to comment.

It's a shame that the Horizon programme about so-called "clean eating" isn't available to view. The problem with short clips like those that are available, is that they offer only a brief window, and the context can change when viewed as a part of the whole. I do have the "Nutrition studies" BBC letter page open, and will watch the documentary embedded in that, a little later.

Netflix does seem to have a WFPB/vegan bias. I've watched a number of their documentaries, all of which are along the same lines. They are interesting, but there's only so many times the same message can be pushed before it crosses the line into being rammed down your throat.

I, personally, read the links from BHF, and the ones posted by @rottiepointerhouse . It's scary to read one which has filed a lawsuit against the USDA (and the lawsuit itself is available by clicking/tapping the image of its first page - it downloads as a PDF, and is something I will finish reading later on), and then to tap the neighbouring link to a charity saying eggs are healthy. I don't have a bias either way - although, frankly, unless they're in cakes, :Shy :Hungry I don't like the taste of eggs - but the contrast between the two is scary, especially when viewed side-by-side.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm not?

As both the avid vegans I know one male one female have both Osteoporosis at about 50, both having gone into the diet from an informed position and in depth. Also both spending far more time at the GP surgery than I, but telling me I should convert.
I cannot in all honesty subscribe to it being a healthy diet

I feel that my diet of infrequent meat eating, and very few processed foods (can't resist my occasional Bacon butty)  is the right way for the human body. Seems those that went through the war on rationing eating small but fatty meat portions, little sugar, but loads of home grown veg, all home prepared and look as if they may have been the longest lived generation should have taught us how to eat healthy and well

Just because I don't agree with anyones outlook on a subject, does not mean I'm not interested, but as I've also said before, I've got the attention span of a gnat and cannot read through reams and reams of print, often skipping those really long posts :Shamefullyembarrased


They do need to be unbiased studies though, not one coming from someone selling books on veganism


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> I'm not?
> 
> As both the avid vegans I know one male one female have both Osteoporosis at about 50, both having gone into the diet from an informed position and in depth. Also both spending far more time at the GP surgery than I, but telling me I should convert.
> I cannot in all honesty subscribe to it being a healthy diet
> ...


Without knowing what the two people you refer to actually ate I can't comment on their health, only to say I hear lots of people who say they know how to eat healthily then hear what they actually eat and know its far from healthy - that goes across the board from vegans to vegetarians to meat eaters. Its not just people selling books about veganism - most of the people I quote are doctors in the US who make their money from sick people, its in their interests to have sick people not well people especially the cardiologists and the bariatric surgeon - he is doing himself out of business. The World Health Organisation have as you know classified processed meat as a grade 1 carcinogen and red meat as a grade 2.

Anyway a couple of papers examining the research - I'm posting some of the main points as I know you won't read the whole thing @LinznMilly hope you find it interesting

On high blood pressure

http://www.jgc301.com/ch/reader/cre..._20170301009&year_id=2017&quarter_id=5&falg=1

The Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults (CARDIA) study prospectively followed 5115 young (aged 18 to 30 years), black and white men and women over a 15 year time period and monitored them for the development of cardiovascular disease risk factors.[10] A CARDIA hypertension sub-study of 4304 subjects revealed a dose dependent inverse relationship between plant-based food consumption, including fruits, whole grains, and nuts, and blood pressure. The opposite relationship was found, however, with meat intake. Greater red and processed meat intake was associated with higher blood pressure. Accordingly, in a cross-sectional analysis of 11,004 British men and women in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition-Oxford study, among four dietary types: (1) meat eaters, (2) fish eaters, (3) vegetarians, and (4) vegans, the vegans had the lowest prevalence of hypertension.[17]

Similarly, Borgi, et al.,[18] found a positive association between animal flesh consumption and hypertension risk in an analysis of three prospective cohorts [Nurses' Health Study I (NHS I), Nurses' Health Study II (NHS II), and Health Professionals Follow-up Study (HPFS)] totaling 188,518 participants with 2,936,359 person-years of follow-up. In this largest prospective study to date on animal consumption and incident hypertension, the positive relationship between animal flesh (including red and processed meat, poultry and seafood) and hypertension was independent of fruit, vegetable, and whole grain consumption. Whereas, red and processed meats were associated with increased hypertension risk in all three cohorts, poultry and seafood intake were correlated with higher rates in two (NHS II, HPFS). The findings of greater animal flesh (red meat, processed meat, and poultry) consumption and increased hypertension risk are consistent with other prospective cohort studies.[1921] In the few published prospective studies of seafood consumption and hypertension risk, greater seafood consumption appears either positively associated with hypertension risk or neutral.[1

The first study to compare blood pressure among habitual vegans, lacto-ovo vegetarians, and non-vegetarians was the Adventist Health Study-2 (AHS-2) calibration sub-study, which included a cohort of 500 mostly white subjects.[23] Of note, non-vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists tend to consume less meat than persons consuming a typical Western diet.[24,25] Nevertheless, the investigators found that vegans and lacto-ovo vegetarians had significantly lower systolic and diastolic blood pressure, and significantly lower odds of hypertension (0.37 and 0.57, respectively), when compared to non-vegetarians. Furthermore, the vegan group, as compared to lacto-ovo vegetarians, not only was taking fewer antihypertensive medications but, after adjustment for body mass index, also had lower blood pressure readings. Another sub-study of AHS-2 examined hypertension in a black population and found that the combined vegetarian/vegan group had significantly lower odds of hypertension (0.56) compared to non-vegetarians.[26]

Other studies found similar results. In a prospective cohort study of 1546 non-hypertensive subjects followed for three years, those consuming more phytochemical rich foods (plant-based foods) had lower risk of developing hypertension.[27] In a matched cohort study of 4109 non-hypertensive subjects followed for a median of 1.6 years, vegetarians had a 34% lower risk of developing hypertension than non-vegetarians.[28] In studies of 5046 and 1615 subjects encouraged to adopt a plant-based diet as part of a health improvement program for 30 days and 7 days, respectively, systolic and diastolic blood pressure fell significantly in both.[29,30] In a study of 26 subjects with medically treated hypertension and then placed on a vegan diet for one year, blood pressure fell, and 20 of the 26 subjects were able to discontinue their anti-hypertensive medications.[31] In a cohort study of 272 non-hypertensive men followed for five years, greater plant protein intake was associated with lower blood pressure.[32] The totality of evidence taken from these studies indicates that plant-based diets have a meaningful effect on both prevention and treatment of hypertension.

There are a variety of mechanisms proposed by which plant-based nutrition leads to decrease in blood pressure. They include improved vasodilation,[3336] greater antioxidant content and anti-inflammatory effects,[3744] improved insulin sensitivity,[33,4548] decreased blood viscosity,[49,50] altered baroreceptors,[33] modifications in both the renin-angiotensin,[36,5153] and sympathetic nervous systems,[33,54] and modification of the gut microbiota.[53] L

I will post the diabetic paper later on.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rona said:


> Sorry, but if you have to take anything in pill form to supplement your diet then it's not a healthy diet


Not necessarily.I've been taking a Turmeric supplement to help inflammation as it's not something I find in my food alot, unless you eat a huge amount of Indian food daily, it's not something found in most people's regular daily food.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

LinznMilly said:


> This thread isn't about veganism though, so I find it's a shame that veganism has been dragged into scrutiny alongside this.


Me too because what happens is that it looks as though proponents of veganism automatically support the very restrictive diets and extreme body image goals which _are_ a problem. I'd hope that isn't the case but it sure can look that way.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> Me too because what happens is that it looks as though proponents of veganism automatically support the very restrictive diets and extreme body image goals which _are_ a problem. I'd hope that isn't the case but it sure can look that way.


Certainly was't my intention - I was just making the point that some of the restrictive diets are not as worrying as some of the modern day junk food diets.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> As both the avid vegans I know one male one female have both Osteoporosis at about 50, both having gone into the diet from an informed position and in depth.


I suppose it depends what their diet and lifestyle is actually like though. My best friend has been vegetarian for over twenty years so should be pretty healthy....however pretty much all her protein and calcium needs come from eating giant blocks of cheese!



havoc said:


> proponents of veganism automatically support the very restrictive diets and extreme body image goals which _are_ a problem. I'd hope that isn't the case but it sure can look that way.


Not me! Im a 'bad' vegan. I support cakes and ice cream!!:Woot


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> I suppose it depends what their diet and lifestyle is actually like though. My best friend has been vegetarian for over twenty years so should be pretty healthy....however pretty much all her protein and calcium needs come from eating giant blocks of cheese!
> 
> Not me! Im a 'bad' vegan. I support cakes and ice cream!!:Woot


but cakes and ice cream contain dairy and eggs so if you're vegan you can't have those either, at least not the one's available in most ice cream vans and restaurants etc, unless it's a specialist vegan cafe or you've bought it yourself. Does take the fun of going out for a meal or just being able to pop into greggs for a pasty and cream bun when you're passing!

We have a family friends visits one of who is vegan. She won't even have food made at my parents house because they only have one chopping board/work surface which the sandwiches/lunch etc are prepared on and brought her own lunch and bottled water. my mum who had spent most of the morning making a lovely lunch for our guests wasn't impressed her comment was 'anyone would think we were trying to poison her' and thought she was very rude! ..and that we could have bought her some food if they'd have told us what she ate as she just sat eating a packet a quorn cocktail sausages out of the packet, didn't even want to use a plate (maybe she thought they weren't clean enough?? or still had meat traces on?) but my mum being of an older generation wasn't impressed! I think she see's it as just being 'awkward' and 'fussy' because there's no medical reason for her to avoid practically all foods (ie she's not actually allergic to them). ..doesn't help that she's also really pale and thin which confirms my mum's belief that she needs a 'proper meal inside her'!. which is why I haven't even bothered mentioning I've been trying to eat less red meat and just eat what they cook when I go for sunday dinner it's easier!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If she's been vegan for a long time, it could make her ill. She's suffering the same discrimination I did in the '70s as a veggie. No one could understand why a spag Bol or a sausage would hurt and I was just being awkward and rude insisting on eating something different from everyone else. 

I didn't think quorn was vegan, unless they do some vegan stuff now.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Quorn do some vegan products but not all by any means are. I read a while back that they were going to make them all vegan but don't know if thats true or the time scale.

@Phoenix Rising she might have allergies or possibly some sort of OCD about food. Lots of shops sell vegan ice cream now and if you are into cake there are tons of recipes out there that don't use eggs and butter. If you look on the plant based threat @Jonescat made a magnificent one the other day  They are not for me as I try to avoid added fat/oils and sugar/salt as much as possible but for vegans who like cake take a look at this website - no doubt there are similar businesses near you

http://www.katesdairyfreecakes.com/about_us


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Phoenix Rising said:


> but cakes and ice cream contain dairy and eggs so if you're vegan you can't have those either


Going to be making some banana, walnut muffins later on and I have a tub of Alpro chocolate ice cream in the freezer so you can have them...maybe just not what you used to have. It really isnt going to kill me to have to shop around abit, I do it for the pets so I should be prepared to find me healthier options too!

What you were saying about mums strikes a chord though. When I told mine I was going vegan she instantly moaned how it would family dinners soooooo awkward. I had to point out I hardly ever go round for dinner and its not exactly difficult to stick a packet of vegan sausages in the freezer if I do!
Sounds like your friend who came round had food issues though which were disguised as 'fussy veganism'. Its a good example of the initial topic of the thread how really any form of extreme diet (or exercise) can be bad for you and even a sign of deeper mental health problems.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Quorn do some vegan products but not all by any means are. I read a while back that they were going to make them all vegan but don't know if thats true or the time scale.
> 
> @Phoenix Rising she might have allergies or possibly some sort of OCD about food. Lots of shops sell vegan ice cream now and if you are into cake there are tons of recipes out there that don't use eggs and butter. If you look on the plant based threat @Jonescat made a magnificent one the other day  They are not for me as I try to avoid added fat/oils and sugar/salt as much as possible but for vegans who like cake take a look at this website - no doubt there are similar businesses near you
> 
> http://www.katesdairyfreecakes.com/about_us


We do know for a fact that the girl wasn't actually allergic to any foods but never thought about OCD and what Catz said about her possibly using the 'veganism' as a front to hide obsessive and unhealthy thoughts about food and stuff that she may have had.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> Going to be making some banana, walnut muffins later on and I have a tub of Alpro chocolate ice cream in the freezer so you can have them...maybe just not what you used to have. It really isnt going to kill me to have to shop around abit, I do it for the pets so I should be prepared to find me healthier options too!
> 
> What you were saying about mums strikes a chord though. When I told mine I was going vegan she instantly moaned how it would family dinners soooooo awkward. I had to point out I hardly ever go round for dinner and its not exactly difficult to stick a packet of vegan sausages in the freezer if I do!
> Sounds like your friend who came round had food issues though which were disguised as 'fussy veganism'. Its a good example of the initial topic of the thread how really any form of extreme diet (or exercise) can be bad for you and even a sign of deeper mental health problems.


Never heard of Alpro chocolate ice-cream! ..do the cakes taste the same though without butter, eggs etc? I noticed when looking at ingredients on some Quorn stuff that they have egg in, unless it specifically says vegan on the front. There's also alot of long names of preservatives and stuff in, often more than what you'd find in regular sausage V a veggie sausage. I have to ask myself what is going to do the most damage in the end the meat or the all the additional stuff in the vegan/veggie versions to make them palatable?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Never heard of Alpro chocolate ice-cream! ..do the cakes taste the same though without butter, eggs etc? I noticed when looking at ingredients on some Quorn stuff that they have egg in, unless it specifically says vegan on the front. There's also alot of long names of preservatives and stuff in, often more than what you'd find in regular sausage V a veggie sausage. I have to ask myself what is going to do the most damage in the end the meat or the all the additional stuff in the vegan/veggie versions to make them palatable?


Ask the World Health Organisation - processed meat is a Grade 1 carcinogen. Have you looked at these rather than Quorn

http://www.lindamccartneyfoods.co.uk/our-food/frozen-range/vegetarian-red-onion-rosemary-sausages/


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Ask the World Health Organisation - processed meat is a Grade 1 carcinogen. Have you looked at these rather than Quorn
> 
> http://www.lindamccartneyfoods.co.uk/our-food/frozen-range/vegetarian-red-onion-rosemary-sausages/


Them sausages are gorgeous...and very filling!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I remember we had this discussion before and a good debate about the best diet for diabetics  I could spend the next hour trawling through my files and bringing up all the research that shows those who don't eat animal products have lower cholesterol, lower blood pressure, lower weight, take less medications, suffer from less chronic illnesses but I know I'm wasting my time. Thats fine as I've said before I'm not out to change the world so I'll just carry on throwing my five pennyworth in and being glad that some people are interested enough to pm me with questions, give being plant based a try and read/watch some of the videos and articles I've linked to.


And equally I could present to you numerous articles demonstrating the benefits of eating oily fish for instance. I just find it slightly concerning that you are offering guidance based on the opinion you have formed from your research. This is precisely what clean eating bloggers do. When talking about health, it is so important that we frame our own choices as opinion not advice, given the influence advice on the Internet can have on certain groups of people, such as impressionable teenage girls.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bearcub said:


> And equally I could present to you numerous articles demonstrating the benefits of eating oily fish for instance. I just find it slightly concerning that you are offering guidance based on the opinion you have formed from your research. This is precisely what clean eating bloggers do. When talking about health, it is so important that we frame our own choices as opinion not advice, given the influence advice on the Internet can have on certain groups of people, such as impressionable teenage girls.


Please do present your studies on oily fish - I look forward to reading them. Why is it that the government advise a limit on the weekly consumption of some fish such as tuna?

https://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2015/13461/eating-fish-efsa

The FSA is reminding people of its advice on eating fish, following publication today of a European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) report on the risks and benefits of seafood.
EFSA concluded that limiting consumption of fish with high mercury content is the most effective way to achieve the health benefits of fish whilst minimising the risks posed by excessive exposure to mercury. EFSA recommends that individual member states consider their national patterns of fish consumption and assess the risks of mercury consumption against the health benefits of eating fish.

The FSA already has advice on this issue for UK consumers, and is reminding people of the importance of following the recommendations in the light of EFSA's review.

When pregnant, you should also limit the amount of tuna you eat to:


no more than two tuna steaks a week (about 140g cooked or 170g raw each), or
four medium-sized cans of tuna a week (about 140g when drained)
This is because tuna contains more mercury than other types of fish. The amount of mercury we get from food isn't harmful for most people, but if you take in high levels of mercury when you're pregnant, this could affect your baby's developing nervous system.

Children, pregnant women and women who are trying to get pregnant should not eat shark, swordfish or marlin. This is because they contain more mercury than other fish.

Other adults should have no more than one portion of shark, swordfish or marlin per week.

The FSA also has advice on the amounts of fish that should be eaten on the basis of other pollutants they may contain. This can be found on the NHS Choices website via the 'External sites' link on this page.

Raw shellfish, particularly oysters, can contain low levels of certain viruses, such as norovirus. If you are serving oysters raw, be especially careful when buying and storing them: see below for more advice.

Shellfish can also be contaminated with toxins, such as:


paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP) toxins
lipophilic toxins, including diarrhetic shellfish poisoning (DSP) toxins
amnesic shellfish poisoning (ASP) toxins

I'm not offering guidance - where have I said to a particular poster do this or do that or do the other? I've read back through the whole thread and the only post I can find that I can think you are objecting to is this one presumably because I've said cutting out fish is not of concern. .



rottiepointerhouse said:


> You've really surprised me with that comment given you have participated in and presumably read the plant based thread  A vegan diet is much healthier for children and teenagers than the standard junk food and heavily processed diet many go for. Being vegan does not mean only eating a plate of salad and veg as @Lexiedhb has said above and I've explained to you a few times now it consists of fruit, veg, wholegrains, legumes (pulses) nuts and seeds which provide all nutrients needed apart from Vit B12 which needs to be taken in supplement form. Cutting out fish, meat and dairy is not of concern - its of benefit as it gets rids of animal protein, saturated fat, growth factors/hormones, heavy bacterial loads, toxins such as mercury (as found in a lot of fish particularly tuna) plus its kinder to animals and the environment


 I haven't said DO NOT EAT FISH, I've said its of no concern nutritionally if you don't eat it and pointed out some of the negative factors of doing so.

Most of my posts are backed up with links to studies or to the plant based doctors sites/videos, or to the course in plant based nutrition I've taken via e cornell. The ones that are not backed up with studies are usually just an exchange of opinions, so why is it you challenge me for offering my opinion but not other posters? If you want I can start saying after all my posts "this is just my opinion" but A) it normally isn't - its normally based on research which I usually post and B) I'm not offering advice/counselling, I'm just offering my opinion and joining in a discussion like all the other posters in the thread and C) if would be pretty boring to type every time and for other people to read but I will if other people want me to as long as everyone else does the same of course


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Never heard of Alpro chocolate ice-cream! ..do the cakes taste the same though without butter, eggs etc?


That chocolate ice cream is sooooo tasty! Ive yet to experiment much with substitutions in home baking but if you look you can always find vegan cake options. For example my corner shop does vegan mini apple pies and donuts, Im sure they are accidentally vegan but nice if you get a craving!



bearcub said:


> I just find it slightly concerning that you are offering guidance based on the opinion you have formed from your research. This is precisely what clean eating bloggers do.


TBF I think the clean bloggers that are causing concern are just using their own experiences _without_ any responsible research to back it up. Their popularity just makes them seem like a knowledgeable source to impressionable youngsters.
@rottiepointerhouse is offering an opinion and backing it up with reputable sources. You may not agree with it and thats fine but I dont think its the same thing at all.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why is it that the government advise a limit on the weekly consumption of some fish such as tuna?


Tuna isn't the only oily fish.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> Tuna isn't the only oily fish.


Which is why I said such as tuna and why the link I've provided from the FSA also discusses shark, swordfish or marlin and raw shellfish such as oysters


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> That chocolate ice cream is sooooo tasty! Ive yet to experiment much with substitutions in home baking but if you look you can always find vegan cake options. For example my corner shop does vegan mini apple pies and donuts, Im sure they are accidentally vegan but nice if you get a craving!
> 
> TBF I think the clean bloggers that are causing concern are just using their own experiences _without_ any responsible research to back it up. Their popularity just makes them seem like a knowledgeable source to impressionable youngsters.
> @rottiepointerhouse is offering an opinion and backing it up with reputable sources. You may not agree with it and thats fine but I dont think its the same thing at all.


Thank you I really appreciate that


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

bearcub said:


> And equally I could present to you numerous articles demonstrating the benefits of eating oily fish for instance. I just find it slightly concerning that you are offering guidance based on the opinion you have formed from your research. This is precisely what clean eating bloggers do. When talking about health, it is so important that we frame our own choices as opinion not advice, given the influence advice on the Internet can have on certain groups of people, such as impressionable teenage girls.


I think it's incredibly important that people make their own choices based on their findings and how suitable it is for them and with _qualified_ nutritional support. I absolutely 100% know that is important. Vegan isn't clean eating in my mind though yes, better than junk food but it's no way to fix those recovering from eating disorders. How food is viewed is incredibly emotive, more so when the connections between the physical and the mental are distorted to such a degree as they can be.

Your links are interesting @rottiepointerhouse and thank you for sharing them, it's useful education.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Which is why I said such as tuna and why the link I've provided from the FSA also discusses shark, swordfish or marlin and raw shellfish such as oysters


Whereas the majority of us looking to add oily fish into our diet would look to the likes of herring on price if nothing else.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I think it's incredibly important that people make their own choices based on their findings and how suitable it is for them and with _qualified_ nutritional support. I absolutely 100% know that is important. Vegan isn't clean eating in my mind though yes, better than junk food but it's no way to fix those recovering from eating disorders. How food is viewed is incredibly emotive, more so when the connections between the physical and the mental are distorted to such a degree as they can be.
> 
> Your links are interesting @rottiepointerhouse and thank you for sharing them, it's useful education.


Thank you - I really appreciate you saying so. Lets not forget food addiction is also an eating disorder but one that is more socially acceptable and tends to fly under the radar of health professionals. You are right though food means much more than fuel for the body to most people and has cultural, traditional and family habits influencing what we choose to eat along with addictions to the sugar, oil and salt which fill so many processed foods fooling our bodies appetite control centres by delivering high calorie foods in small packages.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Please do present your studies on oily fish - I look forward to reading them. Why is it that the government advise a limit on the weekly consumption of some fish such as tuna?
> 
> https://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2015/13461/eating-fish-efsa
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm challenging you particularly, I just find the theme of your posts where you are reporting the benefits of cutting out whole food groups, almost demonising certain foods, fairly reminiscent of those being discussed within this thread - unqualified people offering nutritional guidance on the Internet.

One of the main concerns of the bloggers is the demonisation of certain foods and how this can be potentially damaging. Diet is so closely linked to mental health. I think it's well worth bearing in mind, that's all. I can't see why anyone promoting healthy living would disagree.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I don't think I'm challenging you particularly, I just find the theme of your posts where you are reporting the benefits of cutting out whole food groups, almost demonising certain foods, fairly reminiscent of those being discussed within this thread - unqualified people offering nutritional guidance on the Internet.
> 
> One of the main concerns of the bloggers is the demonisation of certain foods and how this can be potentially damaging. Diet is so closely linked to mental health. I think it's well worth bearing in mind, that's all. I can't see why anyone promoting healthy living would disagree.


I think you are challenging me but thats OK I welcome debate  However like I said I'm not offering nutritional guidance, I'm taking part in a forum discussion and mostly I'm offering evidence/opinions from scientists and doctors who are qualified to do so and are qualified to analysis the research.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think you are challenging me but thats OK I welcome debate  However like I said I'm not offering nutritional guidance, I'm taking part in a forum discussion and mostly I'm offering evidence/opinions from scientists and doctors who are qualified to do so and are qualified to analysis the research.


Nevertheless, evidence geared towards your personal agenda which is fine but your way of eating is one approach out of 100 or more. And there is no research that demonstrates that any one diet is ultimately superior to another.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Double posted


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bearcub said:


> Nevertheless, evidence geared towards your personal agenda.


Not entirely, my opinions are based on lots of things - my nursing experience, my own family's experience, my own health improvements, my reading and studying and listening to hundreds of lectures/debates, my own experience of a low carb/high protein diet and the health problems that left me with v my own experience of a wholefood plant based diet etc etc. Perhaps you can share what research you use to formulate your agenda?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2014/06/04/ajcn.113.071621.full.pdf

http://www.tihcij.com/Articles/Can-Vegans-Have-Healthy-Bones--A-Literature-Review.aspx?id=0000440

http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2014issue2/2014_issue2_VRG_SciUpdate_HipFrac.php


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think you are challenging me but thats OK I welcome debate  However like I said I'm not offering nutritional guidance, I'm taking part in a forum discussion and mostly I'm offering evidence/opinions from scientists and doctors who are qualified to do so and are qualified to analysis the research.


It does, in part, prove your own assertion that research should be regarded with suspicion and results are often dependent on narrow parameters. I wouldn't eat tuna(or feed it to my cats) but putting forward tuna as an argument against all oily fish is misleading.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not entirely, my opinions are based on lots of things - my nursing experience, my own family's experience, my own health improvements, my reading and studying and listening to hundreds of lectures/debates, my own experience of a low carb/high protein diet and the health problems that left me with v my own experience of a wholefood plant based diet etc etc. Perhaps you can share what research you use to formulate your agenda?


I don't think I have an agenda with regards diet; as I have said, I don't believe one healthy diet is superior to another. That opinion is formed from a wide variety of sources, including my personal experiences, like you. My only agenda I suppose is the relationship between diet and mental health.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

bearcub said:


> I don't think I'm challenging you particularly, I just find the theme of your posts where you are reporting the benefits of cutting out whole food groups, almost demonising certain foods, fairly reminiscent of those being discussed within this thread - unqualified people offering nutritional guidance on the Internet.
> 
> One of the main concerns of the bloggers is the demonisation of certain foods and how this can be potentially damaging. Diet is so closely linked to mental health. I think it's well worth bearing in mind, that's all. I can't see why anyone promoting healthy living would disagree.


I think its ok to advocate cutting out certain food groups if you are also giving suggestions for other foods of equal nutritional value. All you are doing is presenting information that people may or may not be aware of and then what they choose to do with it is up to them. 
(this is turning out to be as contentious as the raw feeding threads!!LOL).

I agree about mental health though. Cutting out junk like too much sugar, salt, additives, etc and having a healthy diet can help improve mental health.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> It does, in part, prove your own assertion that research should be regarded with suspicion and results are often dependent on narrow parameters. I wouldn't eat tuna(or feed it to my cats) but putting forward tuna as an argument against all oily fish is misleading.


The quotes I gave for tuna were not research they were from the Food Standards Agency and the NHS Choices website  they were also not supposed to be against all oily fish but serve as a warning that fish can come with health hazards aside from those attributed to animal fat and protein.



bearcub said:


> I don't think I have an agenda with regards diet; as I have said, I don't believe one healthy diet is superior to another. That opinion is formed from a wide variety of sources, including my personal experiences, like you. My only agenda I suppose is the relationship between diet and mental health.


I do understand that and I appreciate the reminder about mental health - my only agenda is to improve the health of our nation and halt this slide into chronic illnesses being accepted as the norm and drugs/procedures accepted as the only treatments. If you have high blood pressure for instance and go the doctor you are likely to be given medication with no offer of lifestyle/diet counselling, those medications come with side effects which may necessitate more medication and are often not even as effective as a plant based diet would be so people end up taking 2 or 3 pills without ever being told they could manage it with diet. I understand many people just can't deal with what they view as a restrictive diet and can't face giving up their bacon and cheese and of course it is their choice but it makes me so mad they are not given the information - most people have never even heard of a plant based diet in this country. So guilty as charged of trying to do something to make people more aware


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2014/06/04/ajcn.113.071621.full.pdf
> 
> http://www.tihcij.com/Articles/Can-Vegans-Have-Healthy-Bones--A-Literature-Review.aspx?id=0000440
> 
> http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2014issue2/2014_issue2_VRG_SciUpdate_HipFrac.php


Thank you Rona - have you come over to the dark side 

My thoughts

*The first study *

CONCLUSIONS Vegetarian diets contain many beneficial properties. However, they can place individuals at risk of inadequate intakes for several nutrients important to bone health. Precisely how the protective factors interact with the potential shortfalls of a vegetarian diet remains unclear. However, studies that directly examine bone status and fracture outcomes suggest that the balance may leave vegetarians, and particularly vegans, at risk of bone loss and fracture. With careful selection, many of these nutrients may be obtained through food sources that include fortified products. In some cases, supplements may be advised to ensure adequacy.* With attention to these considerations, good-quality vegetarian diets can provide a healthy foundation for building and maintaining healthy bones and for preventing fracture.*

So in other words vegans who know what they are doing and know how to get enough calcium are fine. Take a look at this article by a plant based doctor about calcium from non dairy sources

http://nutritionstudies.org/how-to-get-calcium-without-dairy/

In one European study[1], vegans had a 30% higher risk of fracture compared to meat eaters, but they also had a significantly lower calcium intake than all the other groups. *When researchers only considered vegans who ate at least 525mg of calcium a day, they found that vegans had no increased risk of fracture. In other words, the increased risk of fracture disappeared when consuming at least 525mg a day

If you are eating a whole-food, plant-based diet, you can get over 500mg of calcium a day without thinking twice about it. *
.
Funnily enough he is discussing the same study as Katherine Tucker in your 1st study ( the EPIC- Oxford) but I can't see where she has mentioned the above fact. He also makes the point about having concerns regarding some vegans - he means ethical vegans, rather than wholefood plant based followers who tend to be more aware of the nutritional aspects

*The second study *

*Conclusion*
Vegan diets, although high in many important nutrients, have the potential to be deficient in protein, calcium, and vitamin D. Despite these risks, some studies have demonstrated that it is possible for vegans to maintain bone density at least equal to that of omnivores. In conclusion, it does appear that those individuals who choose a vegan diet may have healthy bones, with prudent planning of their dietary habits. More research is needed in order to understand more fully the impact of veganism on bone health.

However, osteoporosis appears to be more prevalent in the developed countries where dairy products are abundant and well utilized by the population.4,5 A recent cohort study in Sweden found that there was no risk reduction in fracture rate with milk intake, and that, in fact, increased milk intake was associated with increased mortality.6 This seems to contradict the dictum of the need for dairy products. The question arises as to whether dairy products are necessary, or even advisable, for the prevention of osteoporosis.4,5

However, Lanou points out that osteoporotic fracture rates have been found to be highest in countries that consume the most dairy, calcium, and protein.7 This has been described as the "calcium paradox".7 As a possible explanation, the World Health Organization noted "the adverse effect of protein, particularly animal protein, might outweigh the positive effect of calcium intake on calcium balance."7 A study performed in 2012 comparing vegan Buddhist nuns to community-based omnivores, found that there was no difference in bone loss between the two groups.17 This was despite the finding that dietary intake of calcium was lower in the vegan population.17

Other studies have also shown lower calcium intake in vegan diets.20,22 The effect of lower calcium intake on fracture rate and bone mineral density (BMD), however, is unclear.15 One meta-analysis showed negative association of animal protein with bone fracture risk and positive with bone health in subjects who were calcium replete.23 Higher fruit and vegetable intake has been associated with better BMD in some studies.24

- I'm pleased to see Lanou being quoted as she lectured on my course and I've got her book "Building bone vitality" A revolutionary diet plan to prevent bone loss and reverse osteoporosis, she is one of my go to people for advice about bone health and osteoporosis - she also gives some interesting talks about the role of dairy in childhood illnesses/problems like ear infections and constipation.

*The third study*

The risk of hip fracture was more than 50% lower in vegetarians who ate legumes at least once a day as compared to vegetarians who ate legumes less than once a week. Vegetarians who ate meat analogues at least once a day had about a 60% lower risk of hip fracture than did vegetarians who ate meat analogues less than once a week. Dairy products, nuts, soymilk, and tofu did not affect the risk of hip fracture. Among nonvegetarians, subjects eating higher amounts of meat or legumes had the lowest risk of hip fracture. These results suggest that higher-protein foods reduce the risk of hip fracture.

My response - no self respecting wholefood plant based follower would not be eating legumes on a regular basis - interesting that they support dairy products not affecting the risk of hip fractures 

Researchers at Harvard asked almost 100,000 white men and women, age 50 or older, how much cow's milk they drank as teens. Other studies have shown that people are reasonably good at remembering how much milk they drank as teens, even if they don't know how many apples they ate 2 years ago. The researchers studied their subjects for more than 20 years to see who would fracture a hip. The researchers theorized that subjects who drank the most milk as teenagers would have the highest calcium intakes, strongest bones, and be least likely to have fractures as they aged. That's not what happened. In men, those who drank the least amount of milk as teens had the lowest risk of hip fracture, and those who drank the most milk had the highest risk of fracturing a hip. Women's risk of hip fracture was not affected by their cow's milk consumption - both women who drank a lot of milk as teenagers and those who drank milk rarely had about the same risk of breaking a hip as they got older. Of course, adequate calcium, protein, vitamin D and other nutrients are needed for strong bones. The results of this study should not be used to say that getting enough of these nutrients is not important.

My response - couldn't agree more


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

It doesnt automatically mean that you will be deficient in something just coz you follow a particular diet though.
I actually think I had a much lower calcium intake before trying the veggie/vegan thing! I never bought milk coz it either went off or I got fed up having to buy new cartons all the time and I wasnt a fan of yoghurts. However soya milk keeps in the cupboard and I like the taste of soya yoghurts better. That added to abit better veg, etc intake probably means Im slightly better off then before!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> It doesnt automatically mean that you will be deficient in something just coz you follow a particular diet though.


Indeed.
I have struggled with an eating disorder for most of my life and due to my relationship with food I had a very poor diet as a meat eater. I gave up meat and my diet has never been so varied and for the first time I don't have to take countless supplements.

Ironically the doctors tried desperately to stop me giving up meat, saying that I could never eat enough to sustain myself...they were wrong, I actually put on weight and it has helped me view food in a better light.

I find these fad diets promoted by celebrities far more damaging than choosing to give up a couple of food groups. I am worried about the Breatharian rubbish in the media tbh, if I had read that a couple had lived without having to eat when I was at my worst then I would have grasped at that...fasting is OK (if your relationship with food is good and you are healthy), but to claim they eat nothing more than energy is damaging IMHO


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The quotes I gave for tuna were not research they were from the Food Standards Agency and the NHS Choices website  they were also not supposed to be against all oily fish but serve as a warning that fish can come with health hazards aside from those attributed to animal fat and protein.
> 
> I do understand that and I appreciate the reminder about mental health - my only agenda is to improve the health of our nation and halt this slide into chronic illnesses being accepted as the norm and drugs/procedures accepted as the only treatments. If you have high blood pressure for instance and go the doctor you are likely to be given medication with no offer of lifestyle/diet counselling, those medications come with side effects which may necessitate more medication and are often not even as effective as a plant based diet would be so people end up taking 2 or 3 pills without ever being told they could manage it with diet. I understand many people just can't deal with what they view as a restrictive diet and can't face giving up their bacon and cheese and of course it is their choice but it makes me so mad they are not given the information - most people have never even heard of a plant based diet in this country. So guilty as charged of trying to do something to make people more aware


I think your passion is inspiring, I really do but as with anything we are passionate about, it can so easily spill over into preaching.

The management of conditions like high blood pressure is all about risk, which I'm sure you understand as a nurse.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I think your passion is inspiring, I really do but as with anything we are passionate about, it can so easily spill over into preaching.
> 
> The management of conditions like high blood pressure is all about risk, which I'm sure you understand as a nurse.


We've all got things we are passionate about - if you or anyone else views it as preaching so be it, I won't apologise for preaching about something that could drastically help improve people's health and the state of the NHS. Again I notice you accuse me of things that you don't accuse others of - when there is a thread about cake making for instance do you go on there and accuse people of pushing unhealthy food or of possibly triggering issues for people with food addiction? Not that I would expect you to of course but just saying.

I disagree - the management of conditions such as high blood pressure should be about treating/removing the cause not treating the symptom. Again I am not saying every case of high blood pressure can be treated by a WFPB diet but the evidence is strong enough that it should be suggested as a first line of treatment or in more severe cases in conjunction with medication until such medication can be reduced/withdrawn. In the US there are so many plant based cardiologists now including Kim Williams who in 2016 was president of the American College of Cardiology

not sure if this video is available for non members of plant pure summit but if it is he starts talking at 2.15 (some interesting comments on eggs at 8.37)

http://plantpuresummit.com/speaker-kim-allan-williams/

Dr. Kim Allan Williams is Chief of the Division of Cardiology at Rush University Medical Center, and is board certified in Internal Medicine, Cardiovascular Diseases, Nuclear Medicine, Nuclear Cardiology and Cardiovascular Computed Tomography. He has also served as the President of the American Society of Nuclear Cardiology (ASNC), Chairman of the Board of the Association of Black Cardiologists (ABC), and President of the American College of Cardiology (ACC).

I am starting to read of patients considering legal suits against doctors for not giving them this information so that they can make informed decisions about how best to manage their conditions. I dare say it will take a good few years yet before we catch up in this country but watch this space


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> We've all got things we are passionate about - if you or anyone else views it as preaching so be it, I won't apologise for preaching about something that could drastically help improve people's health and the state of the NHS. Again I notice you accuse me of things that you don't accuse others of - when there is a thread about cake making for instance do you go on there and accuse people of pushing unhealthy food or of possibly triggering issues for people with food addiction? Not that I would expect you to of course but just saying.
> 
> I disagree - the management of conditions such as high blood pressure should be about treating/removing the cause not treating the symptom. Again I am not saying every case of high blood pressure can be treated by a WFPB diet but the evidence is strong enough that it should be suggested as a first line of treatment or in more severe cases in conjunction with medication until such medication can be reduced/withdrawn. In the US there are so many plant based cardiologists now including Kim Williams who in 2016 was president of the American College of Cardiology
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about what treatment should be. Management of any condition is based on risk, as you must know.

I don't think you need to apologise for preaching anyway and I'm not accusing you of it rather acknowledging that it is a natural thing to do when you are passionate about something.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I am starting to read of patients considering legal suits against doctors for not giving them this information so that they can make informed decisions about how best to manage their conditions. I dare say it will take a good few years yet before we catch up in this country but watch this space


Catch up to 'considering' legal action - shouldn't think it will take long. People consider and even threaten it for all sorts of things all the time.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

bearcub said:


> I'm not talking about what treatment should be. Management of any condition is based on risk, as you must know.
> 
> I don't think you need to apologise for preaching anyway and I'm not accusing you of it rather acknowledging that it is a natural thing to do when you are passionate about something.


We are talking at cross purposes I think. Management of a condition may be based on risk but I want to see prevention of conditions by reducing risks and promoting good health and treatment of conditions based on looking at and removing the cause. I also think patients do not understand their condition is being managed - rather they think it is being cured by the drug or procedure which is some cases it is but in many it isn't.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Indeed.
> I have struggled with an eating disorder for most of my life and due to my relationship with food I had a very poor diet as a meat eater. I gave up meat and my diet has never been so varied and for the first time I don't have to take countless supplements.
> 
> Ironically the doctors tried desperately to stop me giving up meat, saying that I could never eat enough to sustain myself...they were wrong, I actually put on weight and it has helped me view food in a better light.
> ...





catz4m8z said:


> That added to abit better veg, etc intake probably means Im slightly better off then before


Me too! Since going veggie last year, I've become increasingly adventurous in the kitchen, and have started adding more and more to my diet. It started with herbs and spices, and lately started including salads/lettuce/kale/rocket/beetroot, (my mum's jaw hit the floor when I told her I had found a way to incorporate beetroot into my diet) then green beans, red onions, mushrooms and most recently, bell peppers, lentils/pulses, cauliflower, - none of which I would have even given a second thought before going veggie. When I ate meat, my idea of "veg", was peas, carrots and sweetcorn, and very occasionally, broccoli.

My favourite food to make from scratch is pasta Bolognese, and since branching out into the list of foods above, I can make the same dish twice or thrice a week and each one would be slightly different.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> most recently, bell peppers


That made me smile because I too have recently started to incorporate bell peppers. I have just finished a lovely omelette (eggs bought fresh this morning from my local farmer) with onions and peppers - just NOM


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

This thread seems to have gone in a lot of directions but I will try to be concise...

1. Being veggie or vegan shouldn't be considered extreme if it's thought out and balanced. Sadly for a lot of people, they are not.

2. I shouldn't need to say this but any underlying or current health conditions one had, IMHO major dietary changes should be discussed first and foremost with ones GP and if possible referred to a dietician. The internet alone, or advice from keyboard experts is not sufficient and potentially dangerous. I'm not say people shouldn't do it but they should certainly do it under medical observation.
There are articles on the internet professing to be scientific or genuine medical advise on certain things, when in fact all they are is manipulated information and promoting a Fad. The internet (and tabloids) can be the absolute worse place for impressionable kids looking for dietary advice. 

3. Not all meat eaters are meat and 2 veg. I am not a vegetarian and I have an extremely varied diet. Maybe meat two or three times a week but often cheap cuts (ie cheek, organs etc - liver, heart, kidney). We use a massive variety of veg; staples we always have in stock are cauli, brocco and cabbage but usually also beetroot, squash, pumpkin, beans, sprouts, fennel, aubergine.
I strongly dislike Quorn and fake meat substitutes... but we use a lot of beans and lentils (our larder stocks about 5 types of beans, and various split peas and lentils).. 

Humans need a balanced diet, and that takes effort to achieve if you don't include animal products but I do believe it can be done. but most importantly we need to have a healthy relationship with both food and our bodies. 

Obsession can lead us down a dangerous path and towards the extreme. I grew up with a mother who has battled with weight my whole life, I have seen every fad going, and all it has brought her is a sense of shame and guilt around food, and a yoyo effect on the scales... 
eating clean, in itself, isn't a bad thing. But doing it in an uneducated manner and allowing ourselves to fall into the trap of food obsession is.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> This thread seems to have gone in a lot of directions but I will try to be concise...
> 
> 1. Being veggie or vegan shouldn't be considered extreme if it's thought out and balanced. Sadly for a lot of people, they are not.
> 
> ...


Just to point out that discussing diet with your GP is a very hit and miss affair as most doctors have very little nutrition training and the tiny bit they do get is often geared to the biological side of nutrition rather than actual food. So whilst I agree if you have a pre existing medical condition you should discuss it with your GP, don't expect your GP to have even heard of plant based nutrition and less to understand what it involves and what the benefits are. All of the plant based doctors I quote say on all of their literature and videos that you must make your doctor aware not least because you are likely to need downward adjustments to your medication for conditions like high blood pressure, high cholesterol and diabetes. All of the articles I link to are published, peer reviewed papers and well respected studies


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> That made me smile because I too have recently started to incorporate bell peppers. I have just finished a lovely omelette (eggs bought fresh this morning from my local farmer) with onions and peppers - just NOM


I've always liked the look of them, but avoided them in the mistaken belief that they were spicy/hot. Now my favourite home-made dish looks as good as it tastes. rool


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Just to point out that discussing diet with your GP is a very hit and miss affair as most doctors have very little nutrition training and the tiny bit they do get is often geared to the biological side of nutrition rather than actual food. So whilst I agree if you have a pre existing medical condition you should discuss it with your GP, don't expect your GP to have even heard of plant based nutrition and less to understand what it involves and what the benefits are. All of the plant based doctors I quote say on all of their literature and videos that you must make your doctor aware not least because you are likely to need downward adjustments to your medication for conditions like high blood pressure, high cholesterol and diabetes. All of the articles I link to are published, peer reviewed papers and well respected studies


Which is why I said referral to a dietician if possible.



> 2. I shouldn't need to say this but any underlying or current health conditions one had, IMHO major dietary changes should be discussed first and foremost with ones GP and if *possible referred to a dietician.* The internet alone, or advice from keyboard experts is not sufficient and potentially dangerous.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

What does beetroot taste like?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

KatieandOliver said:


> What does beetroot taste like?


Sweet, slightly tangy, earthy. I find the texture of cooked beetroot a bit odd but raw is amazing in salads.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> We are talking at cross purposes I think. Management of a condition may be based on risk but I want to see prevention of conditions by reducing risks and promoting good health and treatment of conditions based on looking at and removing the cause. I also think patients do not understand their condition is being managed - rather they think it is being cured by the drug or procedure which is some cases it is but in many it isn't.


Oh absolutely; it seems more and more people are not willing not take responsibility for their own wellbeing and rely on being given a fix or a cure, even when one doesn't actually exist. It is alarming to think what this attitude is going to cost in the future, financially and otherwise.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

TBH we are probably all better off having at least a basic knowledge of a plant based diet. Given that large scale animal farming just isnt sustainable for the planet for much longer I imagine meat and dairy will eventually become expensive luxury items.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Looks like the Canadian government might be about to issue their new dietary guidelines having dropped dairy as a necessary category - however this is just a draft so expect a big push from the meat and dairy industry to overturn the bits they don't like. Hopefully they will stand firm and we might be about to see the first big step from a major western country towards promoting plant based diets.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...-will-favor-plant_us_5966eb4ce4b07b5e1d96ed5e

The draft food guide's first, foundational recommendation establishes the importance of whole foods and specifies that plant-based foods (such as legumes) are a preferred source of protein. The recommendation is for "regular intake of vegetables, fruit, whole grains and protein-rich foods, especially plant-based sources of protein."

The draft guidelines also encourage a shift away from animal foods by advising that people eat foods with unsaturated fat instead of saturated fat (saturated fat is found almost exclusively in animal foods). The recommendation is for the "inclusion of foods that contain mostly unsaturated fat, instead of foods that contain mostly saturated fat."

There's no more dairy food group, a win not only for public health but also cultural inclusivity, given that up to 90 percent of some non-European ethnicities are lactose intolerant. It's also a huge win for the cows who really don't want us to kill their babies so we can steal their milk. Instead, the guidelines will sensibly advise people to drink water.

The draft guidelines acknowledge that our food system is inextricably linked to our environment, contributing to greenhouse gas emissions, soil degradation, decreases in water quality and availability, and wildlife loss. The draft food guide states that "diets higher in plant-based foods and lower in animal-based foods are associated with a lesser environmental impact." Expanding our conception of health to include environmental considerations makes sense because our short- and long-term mental and physical health are directly related to the health-or not-of our environment.

The guidelines are based on a comprehensive review of health evidence, considering both quality and source of the information, as well as actual information about Canadians' eating habits. Industry-commissioned reports were excluded from consideration.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

Was gone for a week and missed all the fireworks! 

Ah... vegetarian/vegan diets  
Longtime vegetarian here, part time vegan. No, it's not a fad diet or an extreme diet, it's the diet followed by literally billions of people across the world. I grew up in developing countries (called 3rd world countries back then) and meat was a luxury. Not something to be consumed in huge quantities every meal. Beans and rice was a staple. Lots of fruits and veggies in season, so many yummy fruits. I'd sit on the back patio gorging on mangos straight off the tree that grew in our back yard. Meat was a rarity in our meals, so when I gave it up all together as a young teen, I never did really miss it. 

Oh, and FWIW, I never even heard about B vitamins back when I first stopped eating meat. Let alone supplement with them. I do now, as "insurance" for the same reason I supplement with glucosamine, MSM, and tumeric. Also bears noting that poor soil conditions because of intensive farming mean poorer nutrient content in some foods therefore even the healthiest diet can benefit from supplements. 

The biggest problem I see with the average western diet is that when you put meat in as a main food in every meal, it crowds out room (literally room in your stomach) for the more nutrient dense plant foods. That poor kid eating beans and whole grain rice with tomatoes and peppers thrown in for flavor, and snacking on mangos is getting more essential nutrients and important dietary fibre than the kid eating a full meal of steak and potatoes, even with a side of green beans added. Crazy, but true. Westerners are sicker than ever, and it's time we started looking at our diet and how our attitudes about food are shaped. 

And the sad thing is, we KNOW meat is a carcinogen. A good 30 years ago a friend of mine was diagnosed with ovarian cancer at 21. She had a full hysterectomy and her oncologist suggested that with her family history and risk factors, she cut out red meat entirely. This was 30 years ago an oncologist telling his patient to avoid red meat. Yet still today no one bats an eye when we feed children hot dogs and hamburgers daily. 

The fact is, we don't need meat. It's not extreme to cut it out of your diet. What is extreme is the intense processing so much of our food goes through and still gets called "food." What is extreme are the conditions factory farmed meat animals live in and endure in order to provide us with meat. What is extreme are the antibiotics fed to these animals because their living conditions are so atrocious that they would die otherwise. What is extreme are the number of cases of chronic disease that a simple change of diet can completely reverse, yet physicians still prescribe medication instead of dietary changes. 

I will say though, while I personally choose not to eat meat, I do think there is room in a healthy plant based diet for the rare ethically sourced meat added in. It's called a plant based diet, not a plant exclusive diet. But the idea is that the bulk of your food come from plants. Something we have seriously lost in the western diet. Just the fact that so many people can't imagine what I even eat if I don't eat meat says it all really. 

My own children eat vegetarian at home, though they do eat meat at other homes or sometimes when we go out. I educate them, I don't force the issue. They're both very healthy and have clearly not suffered at all from a lack of meat in their diet. Interestingly, neither is very fond of dairy either. Both will often scrape the cheese off pizza, and neither are milk drinkers. Except ice cream, but I guess that's pretty normal for teens  I will say though cashew milk and coconut milk ice cream are lovely and they will eat those just as happily.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Wish I could give you a green rep for that post @ouesi  the diet you are describing is pretty much the diet of the blue zone populations - plant based with occasional meat for feasts/special occasions. In Dr Garth Davis's book (proteinaholic - how our obession with meat is killing us and what we can do about it) he talks about counselling patients for weight loss trying to avoid the need for bariatric surgery and how sad it is that so many people who come from countries where they eat mainly plant based (carb heavy) and were healthy/not overweight come to western countries and adopt our meat/dairy (or protein heavy) diets and so suffer the same chronic diseases but can't join the dots and see that the diets they grew up on were so much better for them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> The fact is, we don't need meat. It's not extreme to cut it out of your diet.


I agree wholeheartedly. This thread started about extremely restrictive diets though which DO do harm, Almost without exception such fads are meat free which then leads to the inevitable defensive reaction from vegetarians and vegans.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

havoc said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. This thread started about extremely restrictive diets though which DO do harm, Almost without exception such fads are meat free which then leads to the inevitable defensive reaction from vegetarians and vegans.


My post was not defensive, it was simply pointing out that billions of people worldwide subsist on a diet of little or no meat and that eliminating meat from your diet is not restrictive nor the anomaly so many westerners seem to think it is. 
What about these extreme low carb diets and paleo diets? To someone like me, those are ridiculously restrictive, extreme, and frankly unhealthy. Not pooping for weeks on end can't be healthy!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> What about these extreme low carb diets and paleo diets? To someone like me, those are ridiculously restrictive, extreme, and frankly unhealthy. Not pooping for weeks on end can't be healthy!


Again I agree wholeheartedly, any very extreme and overly restrictive diet isn't good. The problem isn't just food - it's body image, self esteem, ridiculous peer pressure etc. Frankly the internet has a lot to answer for in this sort of thing and I think we need to keep in mind that the easily influenced will look anywhere to justify quite bizarre behaviour.



ouesi said:


> My post was not defensive


I know  It was meant to be a generalisation.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

Oh and also let's not forget the gut microbe connection that we're just now barely starting to understand. Again, foods based from plants help create the kind of gut micro flora that seems to be the most beneficial. 

I like Michael Pollan's take. "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." 
What he means by "eat food" is eat things that are indeed food. Ultra processed and then reconstituted food like products that you find in boxes in the grocery store are not food. Food should remember where it came from. That's food. Too much of what we put in our bodies is not food, again crowding out room for the essential nutrient dense foods that we need to feel good. 

Just my own little add too, is that food is good and should be enjoyed. Restrictive diets of any kind take the enjoyment out of food. Food is such an essential part of life, why not make it fun and enjoyable, the whole culture of it.
I love nothing more than preparing and cooking food with my kids underfoot next to me, learning about cooking, laughing in the kitchen together, the smells, the togetherness, the sheer enjoyment of it all. This is how food should be. 

We so rarely prepare foods together as a family anymore, everything has to be fast and convenient and that's such a shame. Eating is a social activity, and taking the enjoyment out of eating is as much part of the dysfunction in our eating habits as anything.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Eating is a social activity, and taking the enjoyment out of eating is as much part of the dysfunction in our eating habits as anything.


Oh this times a million!


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Problem I'm having is I don't like a lot of the meat substitutes for my favourite meals and I've been trying different brands, some are quite a bit more expensive than the meat version or I don't like the texture, or they've put too many herbs/spices in to compensate. So it's finding enough meals that I like to try for the week. At the moment my meals are mainly:
chips and egg
cheese and onion quiche and sald
cheese and onion pasty and chips
jacket potato with beans and cheese
scrambled egg on toast
beans on toast 
mini pitta bread pizza's (cheese and tomato) 
Fish (battered or breadcrumbed ) and chips...
fish finger sandwiches ...(still eating white fish occasionally cos I've got some in freezer to use up)

I do still eat chicken as got some in freezer and I'm not throwing food away, but have no sausage and bacon in there and didn't buy any more.
Bought Beanfeast Bolognaise instead of meat mince (usually get lamb) and did have a go at a veggie lasagne and it actually came out really well and really enjoyed it. 
I do like pasta twists in a tomato and chilli sauce (with mushrooms and peppers in) I tend to see this as a side dish rather than the main thing so usually have a fishcake or a quorn escalope (with broocoli and cheese) that I found isn't bad. 
same with a stir fry I feel it needs something else like chicken adding. I've tried tofu and didn't like it and I didn't like the quorn chicken pieces. 

By the way... regarding dairy I caught the beginning of countryfile and they were showing a man trying sheep's milk. Don't know if that will be available in supermarkets in the future


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

Ditch the meat substitutes and just eat real food. 
Play around with different combinations and try new things. 

We've been out of town for a week and I haven't gone to the store. Daughter and I looked around at what was in the fridge and cabinets and came up with a giant salad of romaine lettuce, tomato off our own plants, a very ripe mango we had sitting around, half a red onion that was left in the fridge, a can of garbanzos that we had in the cabinet, and a yellow bell pepper the neighbor gave us. Threw on some balsamic vinegar and a drizzle of olive oil. I'm eating mine plain, she put hers inside a whole grain tortilla/flat bread thing, and son and husband dumped theirs over pasta and added black olives (yup, with the mango). Avocado or artichoke hearts (or both) would have been yummy too. 

I do use meat substitutes sometimes, but just like regular meat, they take up room on your plate that could be filled with more nutritious food. 

Like veggie burgers. Don't waste time on those and just make your own out of real food. I'm all about "easy" cooking, I'm not going to fuss around a lot in the kitchen, and even I can whip up a batch of black bean burgers with minimal effort. I just use a potato masher and add in whatever you have or feel like. And BTW, "burgers" don't have to go on a bun  

Recently saw a recipe for garbanzo and sweet potato burgers that looked yummy too. Going to try that this week. 

I tend to browse recipes, get ideas, and then do my own thing. Don't be afraid to just mix up whatever sounds good to you. The more you experiment, the more you'll figure out what your preferences are and the more creative you'll end up being in the kitchen


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Problem I'm having is I don't like a lot of the meat substitutes for my favourite meals and I've been trying different brands, some are quite a bit more expensive than the meat version or I don't like the texture, or they've put too many herbs/spices in to compensate. So it's finding enough meals that I like to try for the week. At the moment my meals are mainly:
> chips and egg
> cheese and onion quiche and sald
> cheese and onion pasty and chips
> ...


Oh dear, there is rather a lot of chips and beige food there and hardly any fresh food/vegetables/fruit and a lot of processed stuff. The main idea of wholefood plant based is that you base your diet on fruit, vegetables, legumes, whole grains and nuts and seeds although I think you said you are allergic to nuts. Meat substitutes are OK for transitioning but if you were serious about becoming more plant based it might be worth experimenting with beans and with lentils and not expecting it to be the same as your meat based favourites. Have you tried puy lentils instead of meat? Have another look at the plant based thread for recipe ideas - I posted chickpea burgers and spicy wedges the other day but you could leave out the spices and just use salt & pepper if you don't like spice. I don't like tofu either apart from the Cauldron marinated tofu pieces - I only use them occasionally and I dry fry them first so they go a bit crunchy before adding to a stir fry

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/cauldron-marinated-tofu-pieces-160g

For a really quick and easy stir fry I keep in bags of frozen stir fry veg

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=284275202

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=289530039

which I stir fry in a teaspoon of sesame oil and chuck in some soya beans (couple of tablespoons)

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=282412415

when its cooked I add a tablespoon of hoisin or chilli sauce and serve it on brown rice.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

BTW, I'm not a huge tofu fan either, you have to marinate it within an inch of it's life to make it palatable IME and I'm just not going to fuss that much, however I am a huge fan of tempeh which is a fermented soybean product. Tofu is not fermented, and something about the fermentation a) makes it tastier (IMO) and b) makes it better for you, especially those healthy gut bacteria  

Anyway, tempeh is a little harder to find, but if you can find some, it's really nice and easy to prepare. Slice it thinly, add whatever spices you like (I usually do garlic because I put garlic in everything) but really whatever sounds good to you, fry it up in a little bit of vegetable oil, and then add it in to sandwiches, wraps, salads, or just eat it plain. It has a nutty, rich flavor. Nothing at all like tofu.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

If you like mushrooms @Phoenix Rising why not try mushroom stir fry with a few different varieties of mushrooms; chestnut, portabelllo, shitake etc. If you play around with the different textures and tastes you may find that you don't miss the meat from the stir fry at all. You could throw in some sesame seeds and barely cooked sugar snaps to add some extra texture and crunch. Water chestnuts and beansprouts are great for adding texture too.

Another thing to try is Mediterranean veg pitta pockets, which is just chopped up aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes, peppers, red onions, garlic, fresh basil and olive oil tossed together and roasted on a med-high heat for 40mins served in a warm pitta. Its nice with a bit of goats cheese or philadelphia mixed in at the end too.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

Mmmm, Mediterranean made me think of falafel, another delicious alternative to meat.

This is just one recipe, I'm linking it because I like the write-up/history lesson too  
I don't mess around with dry garbanzos, just use canned and mash 'em up, no flour or baking soda either. Just lots of spices and I also add roasted red peppers or sun dried tomatoes. I also fry them in olive oil. Oh, so good!

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/my-favorite-falafel-231755


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Mmmm, Mediterranean made me think of falafel, another delicious alternative to meat.
> 
> This is just one recipe, I'm linking it because I like the write-up/history lesson too
> I don't mess around with dry garbanzos, just use canned and mash 'em up, no flour or baking soda either. Just lots of spices and I also add roasted red peppers or sun dried tomatoes. I also fry them in olive oil. Oh, so good!
> ...


Thanks they look lovely - I will try those as I haven't made my own falafels yet. You should post that one in the plant based thread so the others can see it and know where to find it as they might not be following this thread.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> I take supplements because I know my diet sucks


Hey, I meant to respond to this earlier, then forgot  
First, I'm totally not singling you out, but you made me think of myself so I'm just going to tell you what I wished I had told myself then 

I have gone through phases of really crappy eating (which is very possible to do even as a vegetarian), and you know what? I felt like shit. Not just physically, but mentally as well. I'm not sure why, probably has a lot to do with my tendency to put myself last when things get busy.

It's really that simple. When you eat well - and I do mean well, no fads, no extremes, just good old fashioned cooking your own food and enjoying it, everything else becomes easier. It's not a time issue. If we have the spare time to post on dog forums, we have the spare time to prepare meals. It's not a cost issue, it's always cheaper to make your own than buy ready made or take-out, heck, there are tons of foods you can even grow yourself. It's really an "am I worth it" issue. And guess what? You're worth it. We all are.

I get RPH's passion about plant based eating. OH finally converted 4 years ago, and he was (is) first of all completely amazed at what a difference it made for him, and two, because of how good he feels, can get a bit OTT about advocating for a vegetarian/vegan diet. It comes from a place of "OMG I feel so amazing, you HAVE to try this!!!" It's a good place, but I get it can be overwhelming too, especially for anyone not quite ready to make any huge changes. We're all on different paths and have our own journeys to make in our own ways. We have to respect that of each other.

When I was a young kid and had just read Silent Spring and Diet for a Small Planet, I went full blown vegan and man, I was going to change the world. I've calmed down a lot since then, I realize the whole food "machine" is so much bigger and more complicated than it seemed back then, I've also realized that a scoop of ice cream on vacation isn't the end of the world. But I also know that every little bit does make a difference. For me, my health - both mental and physical, the example I set for my kids, and the effect I have on the environment.

Jane Goodall quotes Michael Pollan (The Omnivore's Dilema - great read):
"Michael Pollan likens consumer choices to pulling single threads out of a garment. We pull a thread from the garment when we refuse to purchase eggs or meat from birds who were raised in confinement, whose beaks were clipped so they could never once taste their natural diet of worms and insects. We pull out a thread when we refuse to bring home a hormone-fattened turkey for Thanksgiving dinner. We pull a thread when we refuse to buy meat or dairy products from cows who were never allowed to chew grass, or breathe fresh air, or feel the warm sun on their backs.
The more threads we pull, the more difficult it is for the industry to stay intact. You demand eggs and meat without hormones, and the industry will have to figure out how it can raise farm animals without them. Let the animals graze outside and it slows production. Eventually the whole thing will have to unravel.
If the factory farm does indeed unravel - and it must - then there is hope that we can, gradually, reverse the environmental damage it has caused. Once the animal feed operations have gone and livestock are once again able to graze, there will be a massive reduction in the agricultural chemicals currently used to grow grain for animals. And eventually, the horrendous contamination caused by animal waste can be cleaned up. None of this will be easy.
The hardest part of returning to a truly healthy environment may be changing the current totally unsustainable heavy-meat-eating culture of increasing numbers of people around the world. But we must try. We must make a start, one by one."


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Ditch the meat substitutes and just eat real food.
> Play around with different combinations and try new things.
> 
> We've been out of town for a week and I haven't gone to the store. Daughter and I looked around at what was in the fridge and cabinets and came up with a giant salad of romaine lettuce, tomato off our own plants, a very ripe mango we had sitting around, half a red onion that was left in the fridge, a can of garbanzos that we had in the cabinet, and a yellow bell pepper the neighbor gave us. Threw on some balsamic vinegar and a drizzle of olive oil. I'm eating mine plain, she put hers inside a whole grain tortilla/flat bread thing, and son and husband dumped theirs over pasta and added black olives (yup, with the mango). Avocado or artichoke hearts (or both) would have been yummy too.
> ...


I have thought of making burger with the Beanfeast bolognaise mix as I already know I like it. I'd add onion but then not sure what to put in to make it firm enough to make burger shape and for them to hold their shape so I could cook it? Maybe I could make a few then from a packet of BB and freeze them.

I've got some smash (dried mashed potato) I wondered if making up a bit of that and adding it in would get it to the right consistency to make burgers? I'm at work today so won't have time to cook from scratch tonight. But I don't have energy to cook from scratch when I get in from work late and just want something I can throw in the oven or reheat.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh dear, there is rather a lot of chips and beige food there and hardly any fresh food/vegetables/fruit and a lot of processed stuff. The main idea of wholefood plant based is that you base your diet on fruit, vegetables, legumes, whole grains and nuts and seeds although I think you said you are allergic to nuts. Meat substitutes are OK for transitioning but if you were serious about becoming more plant based it might be worth experimenting with beans and with lentils and not expecting it to be the same as your meat based favourites. Have you tried puy lentils instead of meat? Have another look at the plant based thread for recipe ideas - I posted chickpea burgers and spicy wedges the other day but you could leave out the spices and just use salt & pepper if you don't like spice. I don't like tofu either apart from the Cauldron marinated tofu pieces - I only use them occasionally and I dry fry them first so they go a bit crunchy before adding to a stir fry
> 
> http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/cauldron-marinated-tofu-pieces-160g
> 
> ...


I forgot to add the lentils to my last shop, I'll try and remember to add some to my next food shop. Could I make them into a burger or something I could freeze and just reheat?

I have bought the stir fry veg packs and done that but usually I'd add a few chicken dippers to it Tried chickpeas and didn't like them. Looked at that link for marinated tofu, several people said it was very salty and I don't usually cook with salt as don't like the taste so I probably wouldn't like it.

I have wondered if I could make a burger from the Beanfeast bolognaise or the tin of mixed beans that I like but don't know how to get it the right consistency to make burgers so they hold together? I'll have to experiment when I next get a day off. I'm not much of a cook so don't have much kitchen equipment for making stuff from scratch myself.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I forgot to add the lentils to my last shop, I'll try and remember to add some to my next food shop. Could I make them into a burger or something I could freeze and just reheat?
> 
> I have bought the stir fry veg packs and done that but usually I'd add a few chicken dippers to it Tried chickpeas and didn't like them. Looked at that link for marinated tofu, several people said it was very salty and I don't usually cook with salt as don't like the taste so I probably wouldn't like it.
> 
> I have wondered if I could make a burger from the Beanfeast bolognaise or the tin of mixed beans that I like but don't know how to get it the right consistency to make burgers so they hold together? I'll have to experiment when I next get a day off. I'm not much of a cook so don't have much kitchen equipment for making stuff from scratch myself.


Lentils make good burgers


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

bearcub said:


> If you like mushrooms @Phoenix Rising why not try mushroom stir fry with a few different varieties of mushrooms; chestnut, portabelllo, shitake etc. If you play around with the different textures and tastes you may find that you don't miss the meat from the stir fry at all. You could throw in some sesame seeds and barely cooked sugar snaps to add some extra texture and crunch. Water chestnuts and beansprouts are great for adding texture too.
> 
> Another thing to try is Mediterranean veg pitta pockets, which is just chopped up aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes, peppers, red onions, garlic, fresh basil and olive oil tossed together and roasted on a med-high heat for 40mins served in a warm pitta. Its nice with a bit of goats cheese or philadelphia mixed in at the end too.


Guess I could get a pack of mixed mushrooms instead of just button mushrooms, never thought of it. Don't like aubergines or courgettes or cucumbers. Having enough of a challenge to find a lettuce I like to eat more salad. My idea of veg is peas with dinner or carrot and broccoli with sunday dinner. so finding enough that i like is a challenge.

As I'm doing it for health reasons I am trying something different each time I buy my food in and trying to find new healthier things I like. I think this is going to have to be a really gradual transition!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Hey, I meant to respond to this earlier, then forgot
> First, I'm totally not singling you out, but you made me think of myself so I'm just going to tell you what I wished I had told myself then
> 
> I have gone through phases of really crappy eating (which is very possible to do even as a vegetarian), and you know what? I felt like shit. Not just physically, but mentally as well. I'm not sure why, probably has a lot to do with my tendency to put myself last when things get busy.
> ...


It's more down to not really bothering to cook a proper meal for just 1 person. I do tend to cook up a large pot of something or other on a Sunday, that will then last for three or four days, but I really have to force myself. So much easier to sling some pasta into a pot


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I forgot to add the lentils to my last shop, I'll try and remember to add some to my next food shop. Could I make them into a burger or something I could freeze and just reheat?
> 
> I have bought the stir fry veg packs and done that but usually I'd add a few chicken dippers to it Tried chickpeas and didn't like them. Looked at that link for marinated tofu, several people said it was very salty and I don't usually cook with salt as don't like the taste so I probably wouldn't like it.
> 
> I have wondered if I could make a burger from the Beanfeast bolognaise or the tin of mixed beans that I like but don't know how to get it the right consistency to make burgers so they hold together? I'll have to experiment when I next get a day off. I'm not much of a cook so don't have much kitchen equipment for making stuff from scratch myself.


Did you have a look at the chickpea burger recipe in the plant based thread? - you might not like them whole but in the burger mix they are mashed up so you wouldn't really know you are eating chickpeas, you could swap them for kidney or black beans if you prefer - the courgette is grated so again you really wouldn't know you are eating it. You do realise cheese is pretty high in salt? If you like pastry/pasties I have a recipe for a spicy lentil pasty I can put on the plant based thread if you want it.

I would be quite concerned about the lack of vitamins and nutrients in the food you are currently eating. It might help you to introduce more fruit and veg if you think about the colours of the rainbow and trying to get something from each colour group in every day although greens are by far the most nutritious so I keep a bag of rocket and a bag of watercress in the fridge all the time, throw on some chopped pepper and red onion and tomato. Do you eat any fruit? again berries are by far the most nutritious but variety is important too. I found when I first changed over it really helped me to have a checklist of the things I did want to eat in a day for instance a serving of berries, 1 - 2 servings of beans, cruciferous veg (broccoli, kale, cauliflower, rocket, watercress, cabbage), a couple of other veg, a serving of mushrooms, 2-3 pieces of fruit, some ground flaxseeds and at least 3 servings of wholegrains (can be wholemeal bread, brown rice, brown pasta or other grains). That way I didn't even think about the things I wasn't eating which is part of the "crowding out" idea @ouesi mentioned.

I work full time too - run a business that has me chained to the computer for 12 - 16 hours for 6 and often 7 days per week (which is how come I can pop on here between typing), do the housework/laundry/ironing (5 white shirts for OH every week ) and make sure there is always food in the house for us and the dogs plus walk the dogs for about 90 mins every evening. I still manage to throw together healthy/tasty meals every day, I usually make double when I'm cooking so I can freeze half for when I'm short of time or energy. Soups are good too as you can make enough for a few days and serve with a nice wholemeal roll


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Phoenix Rising said:


> As I'm doing it for health reasons I am trying something different each time I buy my food in and trying to find new healthier things I like. I think this is going to have to be a really gradual transition!


There is stuff you can do to make fruit and veg abit more appetising. I used to love frittatas, just stick a bunch of chopped up veg and potato into a fat omlette! Plus they also freeze well and you can wrap half in foil and heat it up the next day and it tastes just as nice.
Also I tend to stick grated carrot and courgette and handfuls of spinach in most sauces/chillis/casseroles/etc. You really cant taste the courgette or spinach at all but its all extra veg. And there is nothing wrong with just doing a side of mixed veg....last night I had fish fingers, chips and a packet of microwave broccoli, green beans and baby corn. I made the veg more tasty by adding a small scoop of cream cheese (when I was eating dairy I found Dairylea blue cheese triangles awesome for this!).
As for fruit you can buy frozen or tinned and add it to breakfasts or have it for dessert with yoghurt.
I think alot of people have trouble eating enough fruit and veg though, I def do some days!


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Did you have a look at the chickpea burger recipe in the plant based thread? - you might not like them whole but in the burger mix they are mashed up so you wouldn't really know you are eating chickpeas, you could swap them for kidney or black beans if you prefer - the courgette is grated so again you really wouldn't know you are eating it. You do realise cheese is pretty high in salt? If you like pastry/pasties I have a recipe for a spicy lentil pasty I can put on the plant based thread if you want it.
> 
> I would be quite concerned about the lack of vitamins and nutrients in the food you are currently eating. It might help you to introduce more fruit and veg if you think about the colours of the rainbow and trying to get something from each colour group in every day although greens are by far the most nutritious so I keep a bag of rocket and a bag of watercress in the fridge all the time, throw on some chopped pepper and red onion and tomato. Do you eat any fruit? again berries are by far the most nutritious but variety is important too. I found when I first changed over it really helped me to have a checklist of the things I did want to eat in a day for instance a serving of berries, 1 - 2 servings of beans, cruciferous veg (broccoli, kale, cauliflower, rocket, watercress, cabbage), a couple of other veg, a serving of mushrooms, 2-3 pieces of fruit, some ground flaxseeds and at least 3 servings of wholegrains (can be wholemeal bread, brown rice, brown pasta or other grains). That way I didn't even think about the things I wasn't eating which is part of the "crowding out" idea @ouesi mentioned.
> 
> I work full time too - run a business that has me chained to the computer for 12 - 16 hours for 6 and often 7 days per week (which is how come I can pop on here between typing), do the housework/laundry/ironing (5 white shirts for OH every week ) and make sure there is always food in the house for us and the dogs plus walk the dogs for about 90 mins every evening. I still manage to throw together healthy/tasty meals every day, I usually make double when I'm cooking so I can freeze half for when I'm short of time or energy. Soups are good too as you can make enough for a few days and serve with a nice wholemeal roll


I do like the tins of mixed beans I get to add in chilli, that has kidney beans in.I did think of them when I saw them do some kind of kidney bean burger on 'Eat Well for Less'

Didn't know cheese was high in salt cos it taste like ..cheese! I only eat mild cheddar or Wensleydale and just get one small pack to last a couple of weeks. I found anything stronger gives me splitting headaches.

Fruit - I mostly like apples, banana's and strawberries fresh but like tinned fruit and have been eating alot of pineapple due to bromelein in them being anti-inflammatory.I buy red grapes and carrot sticks sometimes to have on my desk to nibble on instead of biscuits.

I did make a fruit crumble with frozen fruit (berries) and a ready made crumble it wasn't bad. I do like tomatoes and anything tomato based so will pick a tomato based curry or pasta sauce over a creamed one anyway.

I'd previously been on a high protein low carb diet so more than one portion of bread OR Pasta/Rice was bad I only had one bread or potato or rice.I eat wholemeal anyway now so don't have white bread when I do have bread. eg I had toast today so under old diet my main meal would only have had meat and some veg or side salad...no rice,pasta or potato as I've had my carb portion for the day. if you take away the meat too it doesn't leave much.

I could probably manage to make some spicy lentil pasties using ready to roll pastry, so recipe would be good Thanks. What would be some meal examples from the checklist you mentioned?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I think the vegetarians and vegans on here are very respectful and non preachy . The vegans I know kind of make me want to eat more meat , which I know is stupid because I'm trying to increase healthy meals, and I never think "oh, I should add more meat to this to make it healthier!"

My main go to "willy-nilly recipe" for healthy stuff is:
tin of tomatoes
onion, courgette, asparagus, baby sweetcorn, mange tout or sugar snap peas,
sweet pepperino's, butternut squash, kale, spinach, mushrooms, pine nuts/cashews....so basically anything you feel like.

Pineapple cubes if adding chicken to it, or a tin of mixed beans if leaving it as a veggie meal.
a Kallo beef stock cube with just enough water to cover it, which makes the the tomatoes less sharp and stops it getting too dry.
A sprinkle of cayenne chili powder, and loads of garlic - fresh or granules.
It's really versatile, works with any kind of meat but equally as nice without any meat. 
It goes well on rice, pasta, spaghetti... and if you take some of the veg out and just add more stock, it makes a good soup! - sweet potato is a nice addition in the soup form.

In my eyes that kind of meal is clean eating, and I find it amazing that people can take it further...although, I do know someone trying a raw vegan diet


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I do like the tins of mixed beans I get to add in chilli, that has kidney beans in.I did think of them when I saw them do some kind of kidney bean burger on 'Eat Well for Less'
> 
> Didn't know cheese was high in salt cos it taste like ..cheese! I only eat mild cheddar or Wensleydale and just get one small pack to last a couple of weeks. I found anything stronger gives me splitting headaches.
> 
> ...


OK I will post the spicy lentil pasty recipe on the plant based thread.

Sounds like you are getting some fruit in but more would be good  have you tried blueberries? cherries? melon?

I understand its hard to get out of the carbs are fattening mind frame having done a low carb diet myself in the past but remember people have a habit of eating a high fat meal such as a burger in a bun with fries and they blame the carbs when actually the meal is higher in fat than carbs. Refined carbs are not good and what people serve with carbs is often not good - eg jacket potato covered in butter and/or cheese, bread covered with butter, pasta with a rich creamy sauce or cheese.

The checklist is just a memory aid so there are no specific recipes other than the ones on the plant based thread. On an average day I have porridge or shredded wheat with one tablespoon of ground flaxseeds and a huge serving of berries (strawberries/blueberries and raspberries) for breakfast - fresh in summer/frozen in winter. I might have some nuts as a snack or houmous with veggies to dip in. For lunch I might have a plate of salad with a chickpea burger or a bowl of soup (either mushroom or one made with butternut squash/sweetcorn/carrots and red lentils) and a wholemeal roll then evening meal will be any of the meals on the other thread with kale/broccoli or salad depending on what I've had/not had earlier in the day. I don't eat any vegan yoghurts/ice creams as I want to get my fruit in so have any/variety of fresh fruit - sometimes I do a fruit salad with balls of melon, slices of kiwi and grapes, I'm not mad on mango but I'm trying to get a taste for it as I know its very good nutritionally.

Salt is added to cheese as a preservative and flavouring - most varieties have more salt than crisps do ounce for ounce.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I thought it had been proven that Carbs aren't fattening on there own and sugar isn't fattening on it's own, well not nearly as much as the both together.

You can eat rather a lot of Carbs and even fairly large amounts of sugar without it affecting weight (that's weight not health) but put just medium intake of both and you get fat.........................


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2017)

Nothing on its own is fattening, it's eating more than what your body needs that is fattening. Health of course is another issue. 

If the bulk of your food is coming from whole plant sources, it almost always lowers your calorie intake. And because plants have more nutrients, you feel more sated in the long run. 
The Standard American Diet (western diet) is high in calories and low in nutrients, which is how we end up with fat people who are also malnourished.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> I thought it had been proven that Carbs aren't fattening on there own and sugar isn't fattening on it's own, well not nearly as much as the both together.
> 
> You can eat rather a lot of Carbs and even fairly large amounts of sugar without it affecting weight (that's weight not health) but put just medium intake of both and you get fat.........................


Are you thinking of the horizon programme where they tried the twin doctors on a low carb/high fat diet and a high carb low fat diet? They both lost weight but the high carb one did better if I remember correctly and they found the worse combination was high refined carb and fat together.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40703368

:Yuck:Yuck

Liam Fox has downplayed talk that a future US-UK trade deal after Brexit could be threatened by disagreements over chlorinated chicken imports.

The EU currently bans imports of poultry meat which is rinsed in chlorine and it will be up to the UK to decide, after it leaves the EU, whether this ban stays in place.

Environmental campaigners have expressed concerns that the UK's desire for a quick deal could pave the way for the ban to be lifted as well as a loosening of other restrictions on imports of unlabelled genetically modified (GM) foods and beef from cattle implanted with growth hormones.

*What is chlorinated chicken?*
In the US, it is legal to wash chicken carcasses in strongly chlorinated water.

Producers argue that it mitigates the spread of microbial contamination from the animal's digestive tract to the meat while regulators agree

The practice is banned in the EU on health grounds, arguing it could increase the risk of bacterial-based diseases such as salmonella on the grounds that dirty abattoirs with sloppy standards would rely on it as a decontaminant rather than making sure their basic hygiene protocols were up to scratch.

There are also concerns that such "washes" would be used by less scrupulous meat processing plants to increase the shelf-life of meat, making it appear fresher than it really is.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Sadly, (for meat eaters) I think the quality of meat will go downhill after Brexit and put an even higher price on meat that isn't chlorinated or pumped with chemicals. Also with the Tories cutting benefits, sanctions, zero hours jobs etc less people will be able to afford a decent diet. People are living in the breadline now and struggling to feed their families and heat their homes how will they manage when food prices have gone up more. I also think electricity and gas will go up more in the future especially after they've fitted these smart meters everywhere and can raise the price when you see use it most. 

I was watching Horizon about the future and it was saying about fuels running out in the future and showing a way of generating electricity that was being developed.I can't remember which country they said now. The program also showed how many animals would be extinct that future children would never see.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2017)

Just heard a good quote from a chef (Rocco DiSpirito - no idea who he is, a blurb just showed up in my FB feed). 
"If you can't cook you can't control what goes in to your body, and if you can't control what goes in to your body, you can't control your health."

That to me has been one of the biggest insights as far as healthy eating. And I mean healthy in all the senses of the word, physically, mentally, emotionally....
Paying attention to ingredients, taking the time to figure out what you like, playing with recipes, enjoying food, and eating real food is what promotes well-being.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Sadly, (for meat eaters) I think the quality of meat will go downhill after Brexit and put an even higher price on meat that isn't chlorinated or pumped with chemicals. Also with the Tories cutting benefits, sanctions, zero hours jobs etc less people will be able to afford a decent diet. People are living in the breadline now and struggling to feed their families and heat their homes how will they manage when food prices have gone up more. I also think electricity and gas will go up more in the future especially after they've fitted these smart meters everywhere and can raise the price when you see use it most.
> 
> I was watching Horizon about the future and it was saying about fuels running out in the future and showing a way of generating electricity that was being developed.I can't remember which country they said now. The program also showed how many animals would be extinct that future children would never see.


This thread is not about Brexit or the Tories.

Enough of them going on right now.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Sadly, (for meat eaters) I think the quality of meat will go downhill after Brexit and put an even higher price on meat that isn't chlorinated or pumped with chemicals. Also with the Tories cutting benefits, sanctions, zero hours jobs etc less people will be able to afford a decent diet. People are living in the breadline now and struggling to feed their families and heat their homes how will they manage when food prices have gone up more. I also think electricity and gas will go up more in the future especially after they've fitted these smart meters everywhere and can raise the price when you see use it most.
> 
> I was watching Horizon about the future and it was saying about fuels running out in the future and showing a way of generating electricity that was being developed.I can't remember which country they said now. The program also showed how many animals would be extinct that future children would never see.


The quality of meat will go up if anything, - the UK should continue to raise its welfare standards, and we should pay a higher price for it - GOOD. Absolutely as it should be. As has been said a million times you dont need "expensive" meat to survive, or even thrive. I personally eat veggie about 3 days a week, becasue I'd rather buy high welfare standard meat and fish and have it less often than by chicken imported from Thailand and have it every day..........


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

Lexiedhb said:


> The quality of meat will go up if anything, - the UK should continue to raise its welfare standards, and we should pay a higher price for it - GOOD. Absolutely as it should be. As has been said a million times you dont need "expensive" meat to survive, or even thrive. I personally eat veggie about 3 days a week, becasue I'd rather buy high welfare standard meat and fish and have it less often than by chicken imported from Thailand and have it every day..........


I think that's the way it should be. If you do eat meat, eat less of it, and make sure you source it from local, ethical sources. I'm sure the UK has smaller farms like the US does where meat animals are raised the "old fashioned" way where they live a good life and have one bad day. It's the pulling threads out of the garment analogy Jane Goodall uses. The more we refuse to participate in the factory farming industry, the more the industry will change and hopefully collapse.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

A very interesting read on 'clean eating'.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/11/why-we-fell-for-clean-eating


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> A very interesting read on 'clean eating'.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/11/why-we-fell-for-clean-eating


Interesting article but a few points about it concern me.

Who is Bee Wilson? I get she is a food writer/journalist but does she have any of the nutritional/scientific/medical training that she criticises some of the "clean eating" recipe book writers/bloggers for lacking. Quick google doesn't reveal her to have or to have any published scientific papers.

She seems to rely rather heavily on the opinions of Dr Giles Yeo and his horizon programme - an interesting programme full of inaccuracies which were widely challenged by the scientists and medical practitioners involved with the plant based movement. I notice Bee doesn't ask him about that nor his attempt to trash the reputation of a very well respected and vastly published scientist - T Colin Campbell author of the China Study.

Reading her article I feel she is "muddying the water" so to speak by not demonstrating (as Dr Yeo also didn't) the difference between "Clean eating" and the thousands of scientific peer reviewed articles which demonstrate how a whole food plant based diet not only prevents but actually reverses many chronic illnesses and achieves better results than many medications in lowering blood pressure and cholesterol. To present a fair and unbiased article she should have spoken to not only Dr Yeo but someone like Dr Dean Ornish who has published studies showing the reversal of heart disease and PSA levels in men with early stage prostate cancer.

https://www.ornish.com/proven-program/the-research/

She should I feel have made the proper distinction between those whose work is based on science and those bloggers/cook book authors


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Reading her article I feel she is "muddying the water"


Thats it in a nutshell! You cant fling every type of 'diet' including orthorexia in together and say they are all bad! Not to mention stating clean eating is based on unscientific principles then not actually citing any research to back up your claims. Just comes across as a waffley powderpuff piece.

Having said that I do think that total clean eating is impossible. Wether its pesticides in the cucumber or arsenic in the rice humanity has really f***ed the planet up with too much crap over the years for anything to really be considered pure anymore.


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