# Labrador Pulling On Lead



## rockgirl (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi everyone. 

Hope someone can offer some advice regarding large powerful breeds. My 6 month old Labrador puppy is really pulling hard on her lead, it's becomming more of an issue now as she seems to be getting worse and worse. She's getting very strong which is making it harder. 
She's been through training classes where she learnt heel, sit, stay etc and all the basics and for a while she would walk perfectly to heel. 
Now since she's hit the 6 month mark it's all gone right out of the window. We've changed her lead and put her onto a short one to limit her pulling but she's still pulling as hard as she can and making herself out of breath. We use a harness on her but are switching to a padded harness. When she starts to pull we've been pulling her back to 'heel' stopping and waiting or changing directions but she just continues to pull. She'll walk to heel for a few paces then pull off again. We always carry high reward treats which we reward her with when she does 'heel' as the trainer showed us. 

We're switching to a padded harness to see if that helps or not. A few people have recommended using a Halti but I don't really like the idea of them and it looks pretty uncomfortable for her. 

I really am at my wits end with her and I'm only little and her strength at pulling is getting me down and it's getting to the point where I dread walking with her on lead. 

If anyone can offer any advice particularly people that have or had Labs with this problem as I've been told it is a breed trait. Everything I try seems to be failing miserably. :frown5:


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

It is not a "breed trait" to pull on the lead in either labradors or any other breed.

Have a look here for some ideas.

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/loose_leash_diagramed.doc
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/letsgoforawalktogether.pdf
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/strolling_on_lead.doc
Learning About Dogs - Walk Together, Learn Together DVD
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/walkingyourdogwithheadhalter.pdf

How to Teach Loose-Leash Walking | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

Look under loose leash walking here:

ClickerSolutions Training Articles Contents


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

As Smokeybear says, it's not a breed trait. I have an 11 month old Lab who pulls like a steam train. We've only had him 2 months and I admit I've been slacking terribly when it comes to loose leash walking. However, the past 2 days I've stepped up the training and can now get round the block on a loose leash after the initial excitement of "oh my god I'm going for a walk!" has worn out and he's been reminded of the rules.

I simply turn and go in another direction every time he gets out of position. If his shoulder goes past my knee I turn. I also have a very clear release signal (off you go) for when he is allowed to go and sniff around. I live in a flat, have no garden and at the moment dogs must be kept on a leash so out of necessity I have to release him to go toilet. Even then I don't allow him to drag me along though, I stop if he puts pressure on the leash and we go nowhere until it's loose again. It's not ideal but it's working so far for us.

I don't have any particular destination in mind when out training loose leash walking, instead I have a time frame. 5 minutes and back inside. This is done multiple times a day and stops me being frustrated if we don't even make it to the corner.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I don't have a lab, but do have a large powerful dog. What I found useful was having a headcollar (Dogmatic) for when I didn't have the time to stop and stand still every time the lead went taut when training LLW - my dog used to come to work with me and sometimes I needed to get from A to B quickly rather than having all the time in the world for stopping, turning etc.

So - when I had time, I used collar and lead and if it took an hour to get to the end of the road then so be it. When I was pushed for time I used the headcollar.

For what it is worth I still use the headcollar for extra control in very busy, stimulating environments - although my dog does not pull consistently he will occasionally try to get to something - cat, squirrel etc.


----------



## caitlinwade (Jan 8, 2012)

rockgirl said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Hope someone can offer some advice regarding large powerful breeds. My 6 month old Labrador puppy is really pulling hard on her lead, it's becomming more of an issue now as she seems to be getting worse and worse. She's getting very strong which is making it harder.
> She's been through training classes where she learnt heel, sit, stay etc and all the basics and for a while she would walk perfectly to heel.
> ...


with the dog i had (lab/staffy) we used a halti! it was a miracle worker!!! he was in no pain and was comfortable with it on, you just have to train them that it is a good thing by using treats when slipping it on. i highly recommend them


----------



## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm working on this this week with 3 of mine.
I have found as well it starts from indoors, every time one of mine jumped about when the leads came out, I went and sat down, not saying a word, when they calmed I carried on. Leaving the house calmly really does help. It took 25 mins to get out the door the first time, but they soon catch on and now I only sit down once


----------



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

caitlinwade said:


> with the dog i had (lab/staffy) we used a halti! it was a miracle worker!!! he was in no pain and was comfortable with it on, you just have to train them that it is a good thing by using treats when slipping it on. i highly recommend them


A Halti is not a miracle worker  It wont 'teach' a dog not to pull - Its a training tool and will enable you to more safely control a dog which pulls. It doesnt cure the problem - only consistent training will do this.

The important thing is to not be satisifed when dog walks well in a Halti, this isnt a long term solution (I certainly wouldnt want to have to walk a dog on a head collar for the rest of its life) and to treat is a stepping stone to walking on a collar / lead.


----------



## caitlinwade (Jan 8, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> A Halti is not a miracle worker  It wont 'teach' a dog not to pull - Its a training tool and will enable you to more safely control a dog which pulls. It doesnt cure the problem - only consistent training will do this.
> 
> The important thing is to not be satisifed when dog walks well in a Halti, this isnt a long term solution (I certainly wouldnt want to have to walk a dog on a head collar for the rest of its life) and to treat is a stepping stone to walking on a collar / lead.


i did take the halti off with him and he still walked perfectly? so it obviously helped him


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

caitlinwade said:


> i did take the halti off with him and he still walked perfectly? so it obviously helped him


That doesn't happen with most dogs though. Nor does the Halti actually stop a lot of dogs pulling, it just makes them more manageable. I've had 3 who would happily pull on it and am introducing it to a 4th who I think will be the same.

(Yes, I do train for loose leash walking, the Halti is for when I either don't have time or just want to go somewhere for a nice walk without spending the entire time walking backwards and forwards)


----------



## caitlinwade (Jan 8, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> That doesn't happen with most dogs though. Nor does the Halti actually stop a lot of dogs pulling, it just makes them more manageable. I've had 3 who would happily pull on it and am introducing it to a 4th who I think will be the same.
> 
> (Yes, I do train for loose leash walking, the Halti is for when I either don't have time or just want to go somewhere for a nice walk without spending the entire time walking backwards and forwards)


hahaha, i must have got it lucky then! until he attacked my cat! which is why we dont have him now, we had to take him back to the kennels but he was then adopted by my brothers girlfriend because she loved him! haha


----------



## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Honestly! There is no short-cut for teaching any dog to walk on a loose lead, it takes time. The more consistent you are, the quicker your dog will learn. One particular thing I do though, when I get to the field where I release the dogs for free running, they don't get this reward until they've done a bit of GOOD heel-work first, it might be ten steps, it might be forty, it depends on me and how attentive my dog has been, but they are never just un-clipped the minute we get to the field, they must earn that reward. 


Just what I do


----------



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

caitlinwade said:


> i did take the halti off with him and he still walked perfectly? so it obviously helped him


Same with my girl - I used a Halti for 3 weeks with her at 10 months and with consistent training and loose lead walking with one we cracked it and slowly moved back to a normal flat collar.

What youl find is it wasnt the Halti which was a miracle cure it was your continued training with the aid of the Halti which has led to a dog which can walk on a loose lead.

Sorry for being so pedantic I just dont want someone to read this and think wow I need a Halti it will cure my dog - Because only training teaches a dog to walk ona lead nicely.



Sarah1983 said:


> That doesn't happen with most dogs though. Nor does the Halti actually stop a lot of dogs pulling, it just makes them more manageable. I've had 3 who would happily pull on it and am introducing it to a 4th who I think will be the same.
> 
> (Yes, I do train for loose leash walking, the Halti is for when I either don't have time or just want to go somewhere for a nice walk without spending the entire time walking backwards and forwards)


I know plenty of dogs who still pull in a head collar and sadly where people have realised the respite the Halti provides given up trying to teach loose lead walking as they deem this as an acceptable level of training for walking on a lead.

Recently I have noticed a shocking amount of dogs in Haltis out on long country walks at country parks ect which to me suggests they are being used as an everyday equivalant to a collar as a pose to a tool for actually teaching to walk to heel / walk with a loose lead - which is sad.

Again sorry for ranting - Just dont want anyone reading this thread for info on loose lead walking thinking that a tool such as a Halti can 'train' a dog - Only a human can do that which takes time and patience


----------



## DobermannZoe (Mar 3, 2012)

I have a 10 month Dobe, the best tool ive used yet is the Front clipped harness 








Used the halti, it did not work for my boy, he would lunge and his body would get thrown, so it became dangerous.
Zeus doesnt even act that way in this harness, Ive tried the ordinary ones that clip on the back, they encourage the pull if u ask me. 
I have full control in this harness, have a look see what you think.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Get some training - putting a harness on any puppy is not the best idea as their joints are still soft - and it certainly won't help with training.

It needs nipping in the bud now - I've got 6 Labradors, my eldest is 9 and we didn't do things right, so she is still hard to walk on a lead.

The remainder are between 15 months and 6 years and they all walk well on the lead, because I realised it was US needed training to train the dogs, it cost me £50 for a single one on one session with my 2nd pup and we haven't looked back - the session cost me £50 (this was 5.5 years ago) - but it's "done us" for all our dogs.


----------



## caitlinwade (Jan 8, 2012)

DobermannZoe said:


> I have a 10 month Dobe, the best tool ive used yet is the Front clipped harness
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i know what you mean with the harness which you clip the lead onto the back because we had one with oscar! it encouraged him to pull aswell! ill post a picture with his harness on....


----------



## caitlinwade (Jan 8, 2012)

INFACT... no i wont put a picture of him with his harness on because i cant find any but here ones of him on his first day home hes behind a gate (you cant see the gate haha) because he went hyper and started jumping on the sofas and had a wee on one of the beds!!


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Just a note, a harness does not affect ANY of a dog's joints, any more than a collar or a head halter does.

In fact there is more and more research which appears to conclude that harnesses are the SAFEST piece of kit to use on puppies and growing dogs as inexpert handling and an untrained dog combined with a collar and/or a head halter can cause damage particularly to the cervical spine.

It is one of the subject on a seminar I am attending this Saturday with Tony Nevin.

Harnesses, correctly used, can be extremely helpful in training and reduce the incident of laryngeal damage et al.

*UNDOING HANDLER AND RESTRAINT DAMAGE*

Avoiding physical problems during training, showing, working, kennelling
By

Tony Nevin, BSc (Hons) Ost., D.O.
Osteopath

Being aware that we can become so focussed on what were doing that we lose touch with how we do it, Tony is going to help as avoid the various pitfalls associated with handling dogs that can end up compromising their postures and ability to move freely. Addressing matters such as the altered pattern of muscle tension in the neck and lumbar spine resulting from lead walking; the affect on body framework of positioning in obedience training and from restraint methods; the impact on agility dogs of jumping, weaving and tight turns; shorts bursts of activity from a cold start required by working gundogs; scaling of 6 vertical fences from working trials dogs; rhabdomylelosis, a form of severe cramp in the hamstrings of racing greyhounds; the behavioural and subsequent bio mechanical impact of limited kennel space right through to show dogs, who Tony suggests, generally speaking maintain good posture but where over-control can lead to uneven wear and tear  head up, straight limb flight action, and unmoving tail held taught.
Saturday 14 April 2012 9.30am  4.30pm at Horton, South Gloucestershire 
just off junction 18 M4

Cost £49.00 per delegate 
Teas, coffees, biscuits etc will be provided
Please bring your own packed lunch!
For details please email [email protected] 
or call 07968 263924

*Article by Suzanne Clothier on head halters here which may be of interest*
Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Recently I have noticed a shocking amount of dogs in Haltis out on long country walks at country parks ect which to me suggests they are being used as an everyday equivalant to a collar as a pose to a tool for actually teaching to walk to heel / walk with a loose lead - which is sad.


Ah see this is where I'd use one with Spen at the moment. Not coz I'm not bothering to train him but because sometimes I just want to go for a nice walk without worrying about whether or not he's walking nicely. Although if it were appropriate he'd be on a harness and long line once we got there. I don't use the Halti to help teach loose leash walking, I just use it to get from A to B without undoing the work I am doing on keeping a loose leash.


----------



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah see this is where I'd use one with Spen at the moment. Not coz I'm not bothering to train him but because sometimes I just want to go for a nice walk without worrying about whether or not he's walking nicely. Although if it were appropriate he'd be on a harness and long line once we got there. I don't use the Halti to help teach loose leash walking, I just use it to get from A to B without undoing the work I am doing on keeping a loose leash.


This is where our use of it will differ -

I always thought of the Halti as a tool I used for walks where 'concentration' was required from Milile. Ie 'Halti on' = Sensible no pulling to heel walk ie an active training session. So it was primarily used on pavements around the village. If I were to go somewhere where she would be off lead / on a flexi or walking in a more relaxed manor (Rambling over fields on a lead) then I would always take it off and use collar / harness. I never made her wear it more than for say 40 minutes - For prolonged walks I used a collar / harness.

I guess I only used it when she truely was walking to heel, there seemeed not point me confusing her by using it on long walks where she isnt required to walk to heel as it would send out a very confusing messages. Call me stupid but I often feel sorry for dogs I see 2 miles from anywhere in a head collar  I just cant imagine them being able to truely relax and be a dog on such prolonged walks with a head collar on.

Even after we stopped using the Halti daily every few days / couple weeks we would have short 10 minute burst in a wlak with halti on if Millie was struggling to settle into a relaxed loose lead walking position.

It is a fantastic tool and has helped us hugely - I still have it somewhere lol


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah see this is where I'd use one with Spen at the moment. Not coz I'm not bothering to train him but because sometimes I just want to go for a nice walk without worrying about whether or not he's walking nicely. Although if it were appropriate he'd be on a harness and long line once we got there. I don't use the Halti to help teach loose leash walking, I just use it to get from A to B without undoing the work I am doing on keeping a loose leash.


Same with Roxy. If I try any new walk then she has to have her head collar on as she gets so excited that she will put her head & just pull the entire way. Once she starts it's then incredibly hard to get her to regain focus.

She is mainly offleash during her walks but today when we were practising walking to heel she got scent of something & started to pull so on went her gentle leader as she decided she didn't want to do anything other than pull 

We practise loose lead walking on most walks & I do try to do this in areas of low distractions, although we are building up to areas she find particularly exciting. She can walk to heel really nicely at times but does have problems controlling herself when she gets excited.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

While I used the halti literally as a management tool to get from A to B. I didn't want the hassle of teaching my dog to walk nicely on a halti and then have to teach it all over again on a collar because it hadn't generalised so I just went with teaching it on the collar in the first place. 

None of mine have really worn it for prolonged periods though. Shadow and Wolf were off leash where possible so it was used to get them to the field or wherever and then off. Rupert couldn't be off leash so again, A to B then harness and long line if appropriate. Spens still in the introduction stage but it'll be the same with him, halti to get from A to B then harness and long line. Or off leash when his recall is more reliable and we're out of breeding season.

Collar is for loose leash walking by my side, harness is for when given the freedom to wander a bit (although I still insist on not being dragged), halti for just getting places.


----------



## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Just to add another bit, I've heard that Haltis can cause neck and spinal damage too if they're not used properly, i.e. the dog pulls, the halti is jerked to bring the dog's head around thus causing a jerk action on the neck - not good. And don't do what I saw some lady in town the other day, halti on a big puppy, and a flexi lead attached to the halti.  

I don't normally point things like this out to people but I felt as though it was necessary as this dog will probably end up with neck pain if she carried on... and having had a dog undergo two massive spinal and neck surgery at Fitzpatrick's for 10 months, I felt as though I had a bit of experience. :skep:


----------



## Guest (Apr 11, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Just a note, *a harness does not affect ANY of a dog's joints, any more than a collar or a head halter does.*
> 
> In fact there is more and more research which appears to conclude that *harnesses are the SAFEST piece of kit to use on puppies and growing dogs as inexpert handling and an untrained dog combined with a collar and/or a head halter can cause damage particularly to the cervical spine.*
> 
> ...


Thank you for this! Ill be honest, I know head halters are supposed to be the tool du jour, but frankly they scare me. They scare me that so many people are using them incorrectly, letting the dog run out to the end of a flexi on them, without properly desensitizing the dog first... - just way too many ways you can go wrong with a head halter (as well as other tools designed to be punishing).

I really dont understand where all the concern for joint issues comes from with a harness. Its pretty easy to tell if your dogs movement is being restricted by the harness, and you adjust it accordingly. They really are the most idiot proof tool out there IMO. 
I know for our next dog we will start out with a harness from day one. The more I read and think about things like wobblers, mega e, thyroid disorders, collapsed trachea - they ALL originate in the neck - why not avoid any potential problems from the get-go?
Read an interesting article (that I cant find now) written by a vet, who said that sometimes paw licking isnt related to allergies at all, rather to nerve damage in the neck that makes their paws feel tingly and like pins and needles. Yeah, harnesses all the way here


----------



## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

My dogs do that too


----------



## rockgirl (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. I really do not want to use a halti as like people have said they look like muzzles and to me they don't look comfortable and I do not want my puppy to be in danger of hurting herself for the sake of a bit of pulling. I think it's rather appaling when people carry on using the haltis forever it's not fair on the dog. I'm going to keep on with her training as when i take her out for walks i'm not pushed for time or in a hurry so will keep on with the changing direction and stopping. It doesn't fuss me how long it takes us to get anywhere but like someone else mentionned she isn't allowed off lead until she's done good walking, even if that means walking her on lead around the park.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rockgirl said:


> Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. I really do not want to use a halti as like people have said they look like muzzles and to me they don't look comfortable and I do not want my puppy to be in danger of hurting herself for the sake of a bit of pulling. *I think it's rather appaling when people carry on using the haltis forever it's not fair on the dog*. I'm going to keep on with her training as when i take her out for walks i'm not pushed for time or in a hurry so will keep on with the changing direction and stopping. It doesn't fuss me how long it takes us to get anywhere but like someone else mentionned she isn't allowed off lead until she's done good walking, even if that means walking her on lead around the park.


I am rather appalling then. I use Kilo's headcollar which he actively pushes his head into as he knows it means a walk whenever we are anywhere very busy and distracting - all street walks here due to the number of cats, kids running to us etc and I plan to do so forever. I haven't been lazy with his training and he walks nicely on a loose lead, but I like the headcollar for backup. He gets a few hours offlead per day and our quieter walks are done without a headcollar. What would be appalling and unfair on the dog is a dog that manages to get a cat that runs from him before I see it.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I am rather appalling then. I use Kilo's headcollar which he actively pushes his head into as he knows it means a walk whenever we are anywhere very busy and distracting - all street walks here due to the number of cats, kids running to us etc and I plan to do so forever. I haven't been lazy with his training and he walks nicely on a loose lead, but I like the headcollar for backup. He gets a few hours offlead per day and our quieter walks are done without a headcollar. What would be appalling and unfair on the dog is a dog that manages to get a cat that runs from him before I see it.


Me too as well!

Some people are obviously alot better at training their dogs not to pull than I am. A year later .... she still pulls ... just not as badly


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Me too as well!
> 
> Some people are obviously alot better at training their dogs not to pull than I am. A year later .... she still pulls ... just not as badly


Kilo doesn't pull consistently...but will decide that some smells etc MUST be followed now and again...and if a cat runs  . My fault that he does that I am sure (although we can walk past cats that are walking now, rather than screaming like a banshee!) - but I don't feel that he suffers .


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Kilo doesn't pull consistently...but will decide that some smells etc MUST be followed now and again...and if a cat runs  . My fault that he does that I am sure (although we can walk past cats that are walking now, rather than screaming like a banshee!) - but I don't feel that he suffers .


Seeing the pics of the gorgeous walks Kilo goes on I think he has an amazing life tbh!

Roxy doesn't particularly like her head collar but I don't particularly like being pulled so we use it on certain walks, or just at certain points on our walk. At opur training class I need to use one on her to have more control wih so many other dogs & people around.

Once we are out there are so many other smells, etc that she doesn't bother about it at all. Looking like a muzzle is a benefit to me tbh as it stops people approahing us (if we do ever meet any) as Roxy gets nervous if strangers come over to her when she's leashed.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Seeing the pics of the gorgeous walks Kilo goes on I think he has an amazing life tbh!
> 
> Roxy doesn't particularly like her head collar but I don't particularly like being pulled so we use it on certain walks, or just at certain points on our walk. At opur training class I need to use one on her to have more control wih so many other dogs & people around.
> 
> Once we are out there are so many other smells, etc that she doesn't bother about it at all. *Looking like a muzzle is a benefit to me tbh as it stops people approahing us (if we do ever meet any) as Roxy gets nervous if strangers come over to her when she's leashed*.


I have found that it stops small kids being allowed to maul him....you see them coming shouting doggy, doggy, doggggiiiiieeeeeeee until their parent spots the headcollar and then it's "come away. That dog is nasty, that is why it has a lead over it's nose" .


----------



## rockgirl (Apr 3, 2012)

Hello.
Just thought I'd update everyone on this. I took my puppy to our local vets as the head nurse is very good with training tips. We bought a new padded harness which worked really well for a while, however phoenix was soon pulling, jumping up at us, laying down stopping and being annoying to walk. We persevered with it but she became completely out of control. 
The last two weeks we've done intensive lead training and have just started using a Halti, which I didnt want to use but it was a last resort and she's doing so much better. She's still new to the Halti but we're going to keep on training her using it and in a few weeks try her without it to see how she does. Thanks to everyone who's had an input


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

I know how you feel!!!

Ive had Labs for 30 odd years but never had one that pulled like Woody

I was at my wits end at one point and didnt want to use a halti either.

So what I did was, put him on a long lead and a half check collar,short leads were useless as he just pulled more

When he pulled I yanked him back with the command close!! and while he was close I talked to him all!! the time telling him goooood, thats just the word good only elongated and occaisionaly treated him whilst he was close.

Took some time but now I can walk him on a long lead and he stays close by me all the time


----------



## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

I'll have to disagree with SMOKEY BEAR 

Everyone I know who has a Lab, myself included, has had the same problem. Labs are typically exuberant, very interested in what's going on around them, and when they are excited they can really pull hard.

I know you don't want to use a headcollar but as a fellow Lab owner, I can tell you they can make a huge difference -* and while you use one, and walks are more relaxing, you can then reward your girl for calmer walking etc.*

I recommend the Dogmatic - do email them for sizing advice, especially as your girl is still very young.

You need a double-ended lead; attach one hook to the Dogmatic, the other to the dog's collar.

*
EDITED TO ADD*

Just read the whole thread, and noticed a few people saying how 'appalling' etc it is for some dogs to always wear a headcollar. So just to note that some of us have no choice. I have a very tall, 35kg Lab who is also VERY reactive - he will lunge and go mad at the sight of any other animal; dog, cat, bird, even a bumblebee! As for horses........he goes BESERK.

There are also countless other triggers out there that I may not always recognise in time - so yes we ALWAYS use a headcollar because it is safe for my dog, for me and for the numerous motorists around us.

If we are out walking in the country, with no cars, then no - I take off the headcollar.

Also just to point out: headcollars are like any other piece of equipment: they can be used incorrectly. Ditto with leads and collars!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I'll have to disagree with SMOKEY BEAR
> Everyone I know who has a Lab, myself included, has had the same problem. Labs are typically exuberant, very interested in what's going on around them, and when they are excited they can really pull hard.


Well, I know lots including my own labs that have never had a problem with pulling.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

8tansox said:


> Just to add another bit, I've heard that Haltis can cause neck and spinal damage too if they're not used properly, i.e. the dog pulls, the halti is jerked to bring the dog's head around thus causing a jerk action on the neck - not good. And don't do what I saw some lady in town the other day, halti on a big puppy, and a flexi lead attached to the halti.
> 
> I don't normally point things like this out to people but I felt as though it was necessary as this dog will probably end up with neck pain if she carried on... and having had a dog undergo two massive spinal and neck surgery at Fitzpatrick's for 10 months, I felt as though I had a bit of experience. :skep:


Thank you for pointing that out in detail. A properly fitted headcollar, like the Dogmatic which does not ride up or cut in but stays put, is a wonderful training tool as well as a back up tool IF USED CORRECTLY! No long leads, short leads only, and personally I would never use one with a lead only attached to the headcollar. It has to be a double ended lead with an end clipped to the dogmatic and another end clipped to the collar.

This was the dog's head is never swivelled round and you can teach the loose leash walk very easily with a very strong dog by simply holding the collar end unless you need the other end.

One of my newfies is a stone heavier than me and had never been taught to walk on a lead when I got her last October. She pulled me flat on my face the first time I stupidly just put a lead on her, and she was just too strong to teach in the normal way of stopping, turning etc. Lead on, take off!

Now I can walk her on just the lead without the headcollar. She has discovered that it is much more fun if she walks nicely. The Dogmatic also comes in pretty patterns so doesn't look like a muzzle. A harness, unless it is a front clip one, will encourage pulling.



rockgirl said:


> Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. I really do not want to use a halti as like people have said they look like muzzles and to me they don't look comfortable and I do not want my puppy to be in danger of hurting herself for the sake of a bit of pulling. I think it's rather appaling when people carry on using the haltis forever it's not fair on the dog. I'm going to keep on with her training as when i take her out for walks i'm not pushed for time or in a hurry so will keep on with the changing direction and stopping. It doesn't fuss me how long it takes us to get anywhere but like someone else mentionned she isn't allowed off lead until she's done good walking, even if that means walking her on lead around the park.


See above. The Dogmatic doesn't look like a muzzle.



Dogless said:


> I am rather appalling then. I use Kilo's headcollar which he actively pushes his head into as he knows it means a walk whenever we are anywhere very busy and distracting - all street walks here due to the number of cats, kids running to us etc and I plan to do so forever. I haven't been lazy with his training and he walks nicely on a loose lead, but I like the headcollar for backup. He gets a few hours offlead per day and our quieter walks are done without a headcollar. What would be appalling and unfair on the dog is a dog that manages to get a cat that runs from him before I see it.


I am also appalling. Anyone who wants to try walking Ferdie round the streets without the back up of a dogmatic is welcome to try. He walks nicely as well, unless he wants something, then you have the confidence of knowing you are not going to end up being dragged in front of a lorry.

How appalling is that? Wanting to make sure I come back from a walk with myself and dogs in one piece? Dreadful way to carry on


----------



## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Well, I know lots including my own labs that have never had a problem with pulling.


I was speaking from my own, subjective experience. However, a quick glance at various dog forums online and one can find many posts by Lab owners about their dogs pulling.

I am not saying that 'all' Labs pull.

Just that quite a lot do.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

TabithaJ said:


> I was speaking from my own, subjective experience. However, a quick glance at various dog forums online and one can find many posts by Lab owners about their dogs pulling.
> 
> I am not saying that 'all' Labs pull.
> 
> Just that quite a lot do.


I think nearly any dog is capable of pulling, and it all depends on just how early they have been trained not to. You have a rescue who presumably didn't get that training, so you have to compensate now and do what you can. My retriever pulled me over and broke my arm, but that was my own silly fault; I never taught him not to pull because first of all I didn't have a clue how, and secondly we only had to cross the road and he was off lead and running on the heath. Sheer laziness really on my part.

Ferdie and Joshua never pulled because I wasn't about to have my arm broken a third time by a dog, so they were taught right from the beginning.


----------



## Guest (May 5, 2012)

TabithaJ said:


> I'll have to disagree with SMOKEY BEAR
> 
> Everyone I know who has a Lab, myself included, has had the same problem. Labs are typically exuberant, very interested in what's going on around them, and when they are excited they can really pull hard.


See to me the exuberance young labs are known for would contra-indicate a head halter in most cases. I would be even more worried about long term damage. An energetic pup bouncing at the end of a head halter is just asking for injury. Especially if the pup hasnt been meticulously desensitized to the feeling of the head halter. I have witnessed cases where the owner thought the dog was desensitized, but in the moment of reactivity when the collar went to work, the dog freaked even more at the restriction on his face. Not the kind of response youre looking for.

I think its worth reading the Suzanne Clothier article smokeybear posted. Neck injuries can cause permanent damage and a life of pain. Head halters can be a good tool in the right hands, unfortunately I see them used cavalierly and inappropriately far more than not.

Another great article for those of us with large and giant breed dogs, also by Ms. Clothier is this one:
Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - How Much Does Your Dog's Cooperation Weigh?

FWIW, my dogs - great danes and large breed mutts - walk on body harnesses when theyre required to be leashed.


----------



## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

ouesi said:


> See to me the exuberance young labs are known for would contra-indicate a head halter in most cases. I would be even more worried about long term damage. An energetic pup bouncing at the end of a head halter is just asking for injury. Especially if the pup hasn't been meticulously desensitized to the feeling of the head halter. I have witnessed cases where the owner thought the dog was desensitized, but in the moment of reactivity when the collar went to work, the dog freaked even more at the restriction on his face. Not the kind of response you're looking for.
> 
> I think its worth reading the Suzanne Clothier article smokeybear posted. Neck injuries can cause permanent damage and a life of pain. *Head halters can be a good tool in the right hands, unfortunately I see them used cavalierly and inappropriately far more than not.
> *
> ...


*Hence my post stated that as with all equipment, head collars can be used both correctly and incorrectly.

Nor did I ever suggest that the OP allow her young Lab to 'bounce around at the end of a head halter'. I simply suggested she use a well fitting headcollar to help manage her dog and then reward for calmer behaviour. *


----------



## Guest (May 7, 2012)

TabithaJ said:


> *Hence my post stated that as with all equipment, head collars can be used both correctly and incorrectly.
> 
> Nor did I ever suggest that the OP allow her young Lab to 'bounce around at the end of a head halter'. I simply suggested she use a well fitting headcollar to help manage her dog and then reward for calmer behaviour. *


Dude... what is up with the giant bolded font? In my world that equals yelling. I get it, you disagree. Chill out.

I was simply voicing my opinion and experience based on 20+ years rehabilitating dogs, and double that living with them. I think my thoughts on this are valid and worth examining otherwise I would not have posted them.

Even if you have no regard for my thoughts on this, at least take the time to read Suzanne Clothier's articles and give her the respect she deserves as far more of an expert than either of us will ever be.

No need to get your panties in such a wad. Sheesh!


----------



## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Dude... what is up with the giant bolded font? In my world that equals yelling. I get it, you disagree. Chill out.
> 
> I was simply voicing my opinion and experience based on 20+ years rehabilitating dogs, and double that living with them. I think my thoughts on this are valid and worth examining otherwise I would not have posted them.
> 
> ...


I am not 'shouting'. It was simply that the remarks made in that earlier post were ignored so I just made 'em bolder - no disrespect to you intended, none at all. I usually post in this size font; again no disrespect intended.

As it happens I have read the pieces by Suzanne Clothier (read them a while back as someone else recommended them on a thread also). I don't discount either her views or yours.

My point was just that heacollars can really help* if *used correctly. The OP has stated already that she is using one and finding it helpful.

I agree with you that some folk use them totally irresponsibly; the most alarming to me is when some people attach an extending lead to a headcollar - *SO *dangerous.


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2012)

TabithaJ said:


> I am not 'shouting'. It was simply that the remarks made in that earlier post were ignored so I just made 'em bolder - no disrespect to you intended, none at all. I usually post in this size font; again no disrespect intended.
> 
> As it happens I have read the pieces by Suzanne Clothier (read them a while back as someone else recommended them on a thread also). I don't discount either her views or yours.
> 
> ...


Okay. Giant font is normal for you, check. Most of the time giant font indicates yelling FYI in case you wonder about how people respond to you 

Second of all, your point was not ignored. I was adding my opinion & experience. Even if your point was ignored, thats also allowed, like Im ignoring Ronas passive aggressive thanks to your post (oops, guess I failed at the ignore there! )

Third, read my post, I said in most cases, not in ALL cases. See, that leaves room for the OP and you to use head collars successfully.


ouesi said:


> See to me the exuberance young labs are known for would contra-indicate a head halter in most cases.


Finally, I have first hand experience with the damage restraining the head can cause. Ive seen a horse die on the spot after getting his halter caught on a fence, panicking, and breaking his neck. Was present when another horse died because his idiot owner decided to lunge him in double side reins that were too tight. Horse went over backwards, broke something and died right there in the round pen with foamy blood coming out of his mouth and nose. Yes, I am permanently scarred by this and I am *very* cautious about restraining an animal by the head.

Im also biased from working with dogs who are not used to restraints. Dogs are just as prone to panic at being restrained, especially by the head and muzzle. They may appear fine with the head halter until that something happens and they go nuts. Then what do you do? Let go of the dog or restrain him and potentially allow him to injure himself. Neither is an option.
I have rescues of a breed prone to wobblers, and that creates another bias for me.

I am NOT saying head halters are not a viable option. Im just saying that they are not the cure-all they are often purported to be, and can actually be quite dangerous.


----------



## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Finally, I have first hand experience with the damage restraining the head can cause. Ive seen a horse die on the spot after getting his halter caught on a fence, panicking, and breaking his neck. Was present when another horse died because his idiot owner decided to lunge him in double side reins that were too tight. Horse went over backwards, broke something and died right there in the round pen with foamy blood coming out of his mouth and nose. Yes, I am permanently scarred by this and I am *very* cautious about restraining an animal by the head.
> 
> Im also biased from working with dogs who are not used to restraints. Dogs are just as prone to panic at being restrained, especially by the head and muzzle. They may appear fine with the head halter until that something happens and they go nuts. Then what do you do? Let go of the dog or restrain him and potentially allow him to injure himself. Neither is an option.
> I have rescues of a breed prone to wobblers, and that creates another bias for me.
> ...



Horrendous, what happened with the horses; tragic.

Alas my highly reactive dog goes 'nuts' on a fairly regular basis; i.e. when he sees a horse or a cat or a bird.

I then simply hold the lead far 'shorter' so that he stays by my side. It means he can't lunge or break away from me by jerking the lead out of my hand. I don't, ever, allow his head to jerk to the side (is that what you mean by the potential for injury?)

I totally agree with you that headcollars if used wrongly can be dangerous. Ideally I would not have to use one and in fact I tried five different harnesses, none of which helped unfortunately.


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2012)

TabithaJ said:


> I then simply hold the lead far 'shorter' so that he stays by my side. It means he can't lunge or break away from me by jerking the lead out of my hand. I don't, ever, allow his head to jerk to the side (*is that what you mean by the potential for injury?)*


Unless your dog is very tall and you are very short, its likely that at some point while he is going nuts, he will have his head pulled upwards. I'm not knowledgeable enough on canine anatomy to explain it well, but its my understanding that its not just the sideways jerk, but also the upwards pulling that can cause whiplash type injuries in dogs.

Any mode of restraint has the potential for injury. Its up to the owner to weigh the risks and decide for themselves what they are comfortable with.


----------

