# when, and how did dog challenges to you owner by growling or biting and how managed ?



## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

in replying to a post here with a common to all dog owners problem or issue, dog aggression to owner at some time especially the early days i think, it occured to me to ask how others here faced this and how they dealt with it !

so if interested to share for the benefit of others like me and even i suggest others...how did you deal with it ?

did it work ?

is it sorted now ? or are you still working on it ?

i share just what i posted now in the reply to a great dane in adolescence who is difficult out on the streets with dog walker, other dogs and bit its own owner !

now of course posters may post whatever they wish here, not answer the question even, pick criticisms of what i write...change the subject..all that...so i am not dictating to you no you are independant humans with your own agendas out there...i just try and make clear what the questions of this thread are to make that clear to help get what i want...your experiences...to the questions put...
*1. when, and how did dog challenges to you owner by growling or biting and how managed ?*

2. did it work ? evidence of that ?

3. is it sorted now ? or are you still working on it ? evidence of that ? methods changed ? [/B]

did you WALK AWAY ? avoid the conflict ? let the dog win and just wait til it decided to allow you to take things ? i am curious !!!

.............

my answers to my own questions put here ...

1. in pup days...age 9 weeks old both my dogs showed occasional defiance of me ...one dog for trying to take food off it...the other for trying to take a toy off it...the pups growled and tried to bite me....i backed off initially the one pup due to surprise then a CHILD my cousin took the toy no prob from it immediately after my attempt and never an issue since !!! lol ! the other dog i had a kindda fight with i was pulling her off eating dogpooh forcefully and she tried to bite me i punished her was enormously upset both me and the pup but it did not happen ever again.

EVIDENCe a video of the 1 and only time one of my pups defied growled over a toy to me and my cousin took it no prob...breeder saw video i add and said i should not have backed off just taken the toy..she is right...i add this was the 1st day pup was with me after buying him...i was a new OWNER therefore to him i think...just needed to recognise me and obviously my young COUSIN as ok to take things off him too lol !!! kids manage better than an adult me hey ?wink ! ...sobering thought..the dog would not aggress the kid but me yes !!!

angry little puppy - YouTube

2. it is sorted. i can take food toys from my dogs no issues. they offer toys to me i add also.

3. i am no longer working on it.

.............................

copy of part of my response to the great dane prob of a dog walker here...

ps we are talking a GREAT DANE ADOLESCENT here ! not a full grown dog yet ! and a BIG DOG with yes BIG TEETH is going to be a force to reckon with if it starts to get away with such aggressive behaviour to its own owner !!! we humans cannot live in fear of our dogs like that ! the dogs HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ! be made to understand the OWNER is GOD ! not the dog even if GOD to the owner as her baby ! otherwise...put a muzzle on that dog ! it is a danger to ALL out on the streets if it gets away with biting its own owner for getting it off her couch ! their couch whatever ! i dont give a damm as rhett butler said in gone with the wind to scarlett he loved ! THAT behaviour is NOT ACCEPTABLE ! we are NOT a democracy here dog I RULE and YOU DO NOT BITE ME ! understand that ? well let me TELL you that AGAIN ! just the once ! nicely or harshly ! but you will understand !

dogs between themselves use growls etc even nips to communicate to other dogs...now they try that on us humans for sure...and in the EARLY days we have to make it clear to the dogs...much as their doggie lingo of whines barks or growls with teeth shown are messages talking to us BITING IS NOT ACCEPTABLE ! us humans are NOT dogs ! we try understand their only ways of talking to us yes but THERE ARE LIMITS ! and biting is off limits !

usually this growl and bite over couch or food even takes place in puppy days ! dealt with then ! that was my case i add like for many dog owners ! adolescence is the next time it can pop up again ! the dog is testing like a child does the LIMITS ! so those LIMITS have to be communicated to it ! nicey nicey escalating if needed ! we naturally start nicely in communications to dogs or people ! it ESCALATES if we meet resistance ! with humans we just walk away if verbally agressed but with our own dogs ? no we cant walk away we have to deal with it !


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Most people get bitten by their own dog when they try to be "the boss" and force a dog to do something without understanding why he does not want to do it.

My late newfie boy, the sweetest and gentlest dog, would have bitten anyone, including me, who tried to touch under his tail. He was terrified and would lash out.

Most dogs will only lash out in fear, so the answer is to learn what scares them and avoid it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Most dogs will only lash out in fear, so the answer is to learn what scares them and avoid it.


Or work on making it not scary any more  If that's possible of course.

None of my dogs have "challenged" me since I stopped following advice to "be the boss" and "teach the dog its place in the pack". These days I teach my dog what I want from him, make it worthwhile for him to do what I want and have no problems with my dog behaving aggressively towards me or "challenging" me.

I spent almost 9 years fighting with my collie however. Changing from dominance and force based methods to positive reinforcement brought about a huge, huge change for the better in our relationship. No more stand offs with him crouched down, teeth bared, fully prepared to bite while I stood there waiting my chance to grab him and force him to do whatever it was I wanted him to do without getting bitten. It wasn't about "letting him win" it was about taking the conflict out of the situation completely.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Or work on making it not scary any more  If that's possible of course.
> 
> None of my dogs have "challenged" me since I stopped following advice to "be the boss" and "teach the dog its place in the pack". These days I teach my dog what I want from him, make it worthwhile for him to do what I want and have no problems with my dog behaving aggressively towards me or "challenging" me.
> 
> I spent almost 9 years fighting with my collie however. Changing from dominance and force based methods to positive reinforcement brought about a huge, huge change for the better in our relationship. No more stand offs with him crouched down, teeth bared, fully prepared to bite while I stood there waiting my chance to grab him and force him to do whatever it was I wanted him to do without getting bitten. It wasn't about "letting him win" it was about taking the conflict out of the situation completely.


Precisely! Obviously when you think about it, isn't it? Dogs are intelligent creatures and need a reason to comply, not just: do this because I said so. Ferdie used to be afraid of the car, but he had to go in, so we eventually got him over the fear. Joshua wasn't ever going to get over being afraid of anyone going under his tail, so best to just avoid it. It did cause me a lot of aggravation though - I had to sedate him to clean him up, which I hated but it was the only way.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

My older dog once curled her lip at me when she was on my bed and I told her to shove over so I could get in. I hauled her off the bed and she spent the night in the bathroom. Nothing of the sort has happened again. There has been the odd growl when I'm dealing with an injury, but that's expected.

Kite has never challenged me, all she wants is to please me.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I tried to teach them all the swapping method when it came to getting things off of them. Mostly it worked but there were a couple of instances as little puppies that they tried to hang on to something. In those cases I kept my hand on the item and didnt back down despite the growling/snarling, forcing them to let go (not a technique I would try with anything other then a small puppy though!).


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't think everyone thinks that a puppy growling over a toy is challenging the owner's godlike status, or being defiant. 

So the question is difficult to answer, as I and many others don't think like that.

If you'd asked how we deal with resource guarding in a puppy, or what did we do if our puppy growled at us and wouldn't let us have a toy or food we'd given them, we could have pointed you at various internet sites and the sticky on this forum.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/279444-resource-guarding.html


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

Elles said:


> I don't think everyone thinks that a puppy growling over a toy is challenging the owner's godlike status, or being defiant.
> 
> So the question is difficult to answer, as I and many others don't think like that.


Add me to this list. I don't see a dog growling as being defiant, I see it as communication. If a dog is growling at me, I'm going to re-evaluate what *I* am doing, not create even more confrontation with the dog.

Funny how dogs who feel safe, who trust their handlers, who understand what is being asked of them and aren't frustrated by miscommunications don't feel the need to "challenge" their owners.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Most people get bitten by their own dog when they try to be "the boss" and force a dog to do something without understanding why he does not want to do it.
> 
> My late newfie boy, the sweetest and gentlest dog, would have bitten anyone, including me, who tried to touch under his tail. He was terrified and would lash out.
> 
> Most dogs will only lash out in fear, so the answer is to learn what scares them and avoid it.


so you never had any issues ? no example ? you say your dog WOULD HAVE meaning he gave signs of aggression to you for you to know that ? so how did you manage it ? back off his tail ? seems likely reasonable in that instance i would say to that ! yes you write he LASHED OUT...so you stopped messing with his tail...seems ok to me i add ! sensitive about tail so sent you message and not a big issue to leave his tail alone...

yep avoid what scares dogs is fine...until or if it is something like just being stoked maybe ? then it needs dealing with to reduce the fear ..not leave it fearful...

you have had no what is called RESOURCE GUARDING issues then ? meaning toy or food defending by aggresion that is common to many puppies and even dogs from what i read here...good if the case ! never faced with that is good.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I've only been bitten by one of my dogs, it was on a day she was working, it was the end of the day and she just shut her eyes and lashed out. I don't think it was aimed at me but at pain. She died just a month later


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Or work on making it not scary any more  If that's possible of course.
> 
> None of my dogs have "challenged" me since I stopped following advice to "be the boss" and "teach the dog its place in the pack". These days I teach my dog what I want from him, make it worthwhile for him to do what I want and have no problems with my dog behaving aggressively towards me or "challenging" me.
> 
> I spent almost 9 years fighting with my collie however. Changing from dominance and force based methods to positive reinforcement brought about a huge, huge change for the better in our relationship. No more stand offs with him crouched down, teeth bared, fully prepared to bite while I stood there waiting my chance to grab him and force him to do whatever it was I wanted him to do without getting bitten. It wasn't about "letting him win" it was about taking the conflict out of the situation completely.


thanks for admiting 9 years of challenges ! that is a lifetime hey !

you use however to a simple person like me complex terms rather than specific examples if you pardon me saying so....eg ? positive reinforcement...ouff...that is a noise meaning ouff that is a big word to me...even 2 words ! not understanding it without an example...

you use the word WIN ! that implies in your mind a FIGHT to me....i dont use words like WINNING or WIN when i described the actions situations i described...i dont have WIN in my mind therefore ! just a problem yes a conflict yes but i didnt even use those words...i see a behaviour that i dont want...i take action to communicate displeasure...i call and see that as positive and then i see if the dog understands that by its behaviour in future in the same situation...and for me there were in the examples i gave no repeat behaviour with either of my dogs...i am allowed to take food or toys off them without any issues.

i agree if it had taken me 9 years or even a week i would have not been happy about it and considered alternative ways of getting the pups to understand what i wanted. what THEY wanted was clear to me...it was just unacceptable to me. and they had to come to understand that with least effort and not in FEAR of me no nothing i wrote indicated i made them afraid of me they just wanted to hang on to their resource or toy..

IF that is possible you wrote...implying not always possible ? i see it that way and agree...


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> My older dog once curled her lip at me when she was on my bed and I told her to shove over so I could get in. I hauled her off the bed and she spent the night in the bathroom. Nothing of the sort has happened again. There has been the odd growl when I'm dealing with an injury, but that's expected.
> 
> Kite has never challenged me, all she wants is to please me.


i LOVE this honest and clear description and most of all i love what ?

that you say and know YOU DOG WANTS TO PLEASE YOU !!! yes ! i could not agree more...And so if and when they UNDERSTAND what it is they are doing that displeases us ....they change their behaviour !!!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

excuse me folks i must dash out....one dog is whining the other is growling...not aggresively but looking at me yes it means to me THEY WANT TO GO OUT ! i will get my shoes picked up and brought to me if i delay...i want to please my dogs and will get back here soon ok an hour or so at least that is what they need and me too !!

thank you for posting here...i like reading others experiences, good and bad ones...we all have them...off now read later !


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## Nicki85 (Oct 6, 2010)

Rusty has never growled at me and I can't imagine him ever doing so to be honest...

Shae is only 11weeks old but likewise no issues so far. If I have to take something off her I swap it for something even better. If i want her to move and she doesn't want to i'll turn it into a training exercise.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Well all I can say is that it was taking actions to communicate displeasure that escalated Shadows grumbles to bites. Actually taking the time to teach him what was wanted and that it paid to do it and that there was no need to fear us near his food is what ended the 9 year long fight. And yes, it was a fight. The more I pushed the more he pushed back, the more he pushed back the more I pushed. That's what I was taught to do. Never back down, never let the dog "win" or he'd be dominant. 

Resource guarding IS a common problem, it's perfectly acceptable behaviour in the canine world, it's just us humans who don't find it acceptable. If my dog growled at me because I got too close to his food I wouldn't see it as him being defiant, I'd see it as him being worried that I was going to take it away from him and would take steps to relieve that worry. Once I started seeing it that way instead of "omg, my dog is trying to dominate me" sort of thing Shadow quite quickly went from a dog who would snarl and air snap if you moved at the other side of the room while he was eating to a dog I could stand next to without him bothering. He died before we could progress further than that.

Spencer has never resource guarded in that he'd growl or snap if I tried to take something from him. He would however take things and avoid us and hide with them. It's quite possible that punishing him would have escalated that to him growling or more. Trading his stolen goods for treats has resulted in a dog who steals things and proudly dumps them in my lap. I can move his raw bones back onto his mat if necessary without him getting upset. I can remove cooked chicken bones from his mouth if necessary.

I don't believe my dogs do things just to please me. Shadow certainly couldn't have cared less about whether I was happy or not. Spen will to a certain extent but only if there's nothing better to do and he enjoys working with me. Which again is pleasing himself rather than pleasing me I suppose.

Apologies if I'm missing the point, I find your posts difficult to read sometimes


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> so you never had any issues ? no example ? you say your dog WOULD HAVE meaning he gave signs of aggression to you for you to know that ? so how did you manage it ? back off his tail ? seems likely reasonable in that instance i would say to that ! yes you write he LASHED OUT...so you stopped messing with his tail...seems ok to me i add ! sensitive about tail so sent you message and not a big issue to leave his tail alone...
> 
> yep avoid what scares dogs is fine...until or if it is something like just being stoked maybe ? then it needs dealing with to reduce the fear ..not leave it fearful...
> 
> you have had no what is called RESOURCE GUARDING issues then ? meaning toy or food defending by aggresion that is common to many puppies and even dogs from what i read here...good if the case ! never faced with that is good.


I have never had a problem with resource guarding, ever. Probably because they have never had their valuable food or toys taken away from them. If a dog is growling because he is afraid, like my Joshua with his tail, I can leave it alone. I could have tried to show him who is boss when it came to cleaning him up, and either got badly bitten or had a quivering, terrified dog. Neither of these things were acceptable to me.

A dog that does not like being stroked is easy enough, surely? Don't stroke him. I know of a lot of dogs who do not like being stroked in certain places, like their paws for instance, so you avoid those places.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> positive reinforcement...ouff...that is a noise meaning ouff that is a big word to me...even 2 words ! not understanding it without an example...


Positive = something added
Reinforcement = behavior happens with more frequency.

It's a behavior science term.

Positive reinforcement - adding something the dog likes to make a behavior more likely to repeat. ie: Dog sits, you treat, behavior of sitting is more likely to happen again.
Negative reinforcement - taking something away that the dog dislikes to make a behavior more likely to repeat. ie: You apply pressure to the dog's bum and the dog sits, you remove the pressure, behavior of sitting is more likely to happen again.

Generally positive reinforcement creates more reliable behaviors simply because dogs don't habituate to rewards like they do to punishers (what you would have to remove to reinforce a behavior). But also, using punishers can be a bit of a relationship minefield.

In colloquial terms, positive reinforcement simply means that instead of punishing a dog for doing something you dislike, teach the dog what to do instead and reward them for doing that. 
For example, if I don't want a dog to jump, I could wag my finger in his face and say "no, no, bad dog," maybe knee him in the chest, OR, I could teach him to sit and reward him for sitting instead of jumping.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Positive = something added
> Reinforcement = behavior happens with more frequency.
> 
> It's a behavior science term.
> ...


ach so ! good explanation so i understand better now...

and i just got back online so pick on the last post to read only for tonight ! i hope to read them all soon....

now the bit i liked the best in your post ? the bit where i see one can say NO ! yes i like that ! why ? well with all this POSITIVE NOTHING NEGATIVE being drummed around here recently with words i didnt understand it seemed to me even SAYING a NEGATIVE NO was a no no !!!! 

i thought GIVE ME STRENGTH ! i dont agree with this !!!! how can we not use NO ! not make it clear we DISAPPROVE ! this is outta order !!!! we are going to coodgey coo animals with teeth and yes minds of their own and not teach them the rules of the human world !!! LAISSER FAIRE TOTALE !!!

oh YES ! i can WAG MY FINGER !!!! as i do !!! that is NEGATIVE but ok with you POSITIVE ouff REINFORCEMENT types !!!

thanks. now i will go off to dinner....and read the rest soon...

now always a rambler as you know i just HAVE to add what NEGATIVE thing happened this afternoon...Falcon my barker dog...he hears farm dogs afar barking...he cant see what at but advances looking accross field and returns loud howl barks that carry...as if supporting what the farm dogs were doing and sounding an alarm about...some car probably pulled up in the farmyard...and i can say yes dogs even not friends i have seeen JOIN each other to face a perceived danger...when was that last ? a drunk at an outdoor school for humans learning English language......he did not dislike dogs ! but there were about 4 dogs there all strangers and one ridgeback even my bitch did not get on with she kept bashing her over using her muzzle, the ridegback did that i add and her owner kept saying to me when i complained he did not hit his dog...she was six years old and STILL at it with other females i add i ranted to the man ! time to change coodgey cooing her !!!...anyway this man wanders around waving arms smelling of drink so strong I could smell it even at 20 meters away...when suddenly the dogs just set on him !!! not biting...just FACED him in a row some leading some to the side and BARKED MADLY at him ! i stood there amazed ! FEJA !!! next to the Ridgback ! side by side ! i spoke to the dogs...and wow i was not expecting much response the other owners were all over the place it was party time...but feja came to me and the other dogs backed off the man...

teamwork hey i said !!!

oh yes i nearly forgot...due to Falcon today barking near built up area flats where a conversation was going on a man close to the fence yelled SHUT IT ! shut your gob in fact in French to Falcon who of course took no notice...that is aggressive i add...dogs pick up on aggressive tones of voice of people towards them....lucky for the man the FENCE was between him and the dog !!! not that falcon is an aggressive dog but on that field it is HIS territory and he challenges yes by barks as the other farm dogs do any intruders until told he can say hello...which he ADORES doing !!!

off now bonne soiree !

now i can say NO and FINGER WAG !!! that is ok then. that is positive reinforcement. ok.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> now the bit i liked the best in your post ? the bit where i see one can say NO ! yes i like that ! why ? well with all this POSITIVE NOTHING NEGATIVE being drummed around here recently with words i didnt understand it seemed to me even SAYING a NEGATIVE NO was a no no !!!!
> 
> i thought GIVE ME STRENGTH ! i dont agree with this !!!! how can we not use NO ! not make it clear we DISAPPROVE ! this is outta order !!!! we are going to coodgey coo animals with teeth and yes minds of their own and not teach them the rules of the human world !!! LAISSER FAIRE TOTALE !!!
> 
> ...


You *can* do whatever you wish with your dogs, but I thought I was pretty clear that positive reinforcement is most effective long term.
Saying "no" and wagging your finger in the dog's face is NOT effective. I deliberately used what I thought was a silly example of something that is not a good approach.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Finger wagging and saying no isn't positive reinforcement


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

Maybe try this way...

Positive as in adding something, like in math.
Negative as in taking something away, again, like in math.

Reinforcement is anything that makes a behavior MORE likely to happen again, it reinforces that behavior.

So, positive reinforcement means that you ADD something the dog likes to make that behavior stronger, or more likely to happen again.

Negative reinforcement means you have to create something unpleasant for the dog and thus when you remove the unpleasantness the dog learns to keep doing that behavior to avoid something unpleasant. Unless your timing is impeccable, and you can predict exactly the ideal level of unpleasantness for that individual dog, it's not a very effective way to train, especially not with breeds that are not traditionally biddable or who tend to shut down easily. There are also those dogs who will one day decide they are done with being treated unkindly and will lash out at their handler "out of the blue". 

As for positive reinforcement training being "laissez faire" or molly coddling, uh... no, not at all. Positive does not mean permissive. 
PR training is the epitome of consequential training and it is hugely effective, with the added bonus of a dog who is a willing, eager participant instead of a dog who is only performing in order to avoid something he dislikes.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

08.40 in the morning not read all other posts yet but before i rush out again for the dogs and me...ok dogs and i..

i share another just recalled last night as i cudnt sleep the air is bad for that around south of france toulouse often...many have sleep issues air pressure bad...

i share another important yes experince of aggression to owner as pup and even adult of one of the dogs i owned when a teenager...a chow chow..i called him chow...

he was um RESOURCE DEFENSIVE OF FOOD ! yes ! my dog ! GROWLED aggressively at me if i went near his dish when he ate !

only my MOTHER who adored this dog unusually as she does NOT like dogs as a general rule DISLIKES them even only let us have dogs to please us the kids...is highly intolerant now we are adults of our dogs i add...pass to the subject...only my mother did nto get growled at by the pup and adult dog if she took his dish or went near it !!

what did i do ? i was afraid of the dog yes...i was a teenager didnt want to take on this conflict...i backed off just avoided going near his dish when he ate

i add i didnt much like my beautiful chow...why ? he didnt seem interested in running on big runs and walks...took his time over everything. regally calmly just seemed not very active to me and i had had poodles before that were very boisterous and add the growling at his dish thing it annoyed me yes

so i didnt cure the prob, didint try to cure it much...yes ok tried gently taking it giving it back to him...but as i said in not wanting this conflict and seeing it was no big deal to let him have his food undisturbed accepted it

i do add...my dogs then never ate out in public...that was the rule...so it never was a prob in public as the dog was never presented with food to defend so be possibly dangerous to others in public...dogs we had were taught NO to any eating outside the home.

i will be back to replies later yes thanks !


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> 08.40 in the morning not read all other posts yet but before i rush out again for the dogs and me...ok dogs and i..
> 
> i share another just recalled last night as i cudnt sleep the air is bad for that around south of france toulouse often...many have sleep issues air pressure bad...
> 
> ...


And you wonder why he growled when anyone went near his food? Wouldn't you growl, if someone kept taking your food away and giving it back? As I said, I have never had a problem with resource guarding because no one would ever be allowed to remove the dog's food in my house! I have always had a firm rule that when the dog is eating, nobody is allowed to disturb him. Young children were never allowed near and adults were only allowed to walk past at a distance if absolutely necessary. The only person who was allowed to share in the dog's bowl was the cat! That of course was the dog's choice.

I am not surprised that a heavy, hairy dog like a Chow Chow did not want to go running.


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

There are plenty of things you can teach instead of a 'No'. 

You can positive teach a 'Leave' command to stop him eating outside which is still positive reinforcement if done correctly.

Just because you don't want your dog to do something, it doesn't mean you need to use negative reinforcement to achieve it.

If he is jumping at at you, use a 'Sit', if he is bugging you, use a 'Bed or Place' if he runs towards another dog - 'Come', if he is pulling on the lead - 'Heel'. All positively trained commands to correct a negative unwanted behavior.

Your dog is much more likely to behave how you want it to with positive reinforcement. You dog WANTS to do those things because he knows good things will come. If you use negative reinforcement he will do it out of fear

As for taking the food - Isn't that a pack leader crap idea? The bottom line is if you keep taking his food, he will start to growl and snap at you because he knows what you are about to do... If someone kept taking my food I sure as hell would. Just because he eats at the floor doesn't make him any less than me, the same rules apply.

For walking 'Chow'... You had a big dog, if you wanted a fit agile dog to do long walks and runs you should do research on the right dog for you. Dogs like Collies, Spaniels, Beagles, Foxhounds, Terriers etc are more suited to that sort of thing (Plus 100's of other dogs)


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

What do you class as a bite? what do you class as a dog challenging you? When I first got Dexter both my Ex and I were bruised from wrist to elbow- he never broke the skin, he mouthed- hard- because he did not know better. He also humped - if this was ignored he jumped face height barking at you- whilst trying to mouth some more.

Did i see it as an attempt to over power the human race ? NO I saw it as a year old dog who had never in his life known right from wrong, had been stray, had spent time in kennels, did not know any different. 

Hes 3 now- has not used his teeth on a person in 18 months, because i taught him this was, and never would be acceptable. I could have taught him bite inhibition instead but thought that a "no teeth" policy was probably for the best.

Do I have a resource guarding issue? NO. I would be pretty peeved if i was eating my dinner and someone kept poking me, or trying to take bits off my plate, so why would i ever need to do that to a dog? He has a leave it if i really need to get something off him- but 9/10 i just swap whatever it is- usually a sock, for a toy of his and off he goes.....


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> And you wonder why he growled when anyone went near his food? Wouldn't you growl, if someone kept taking your food away and giving it back? As I said, I have never had a problem with resource guarding because no one would ever be allowed to remove the dog's food in my house! I have always had a firm rule that when the dog is eating, nobody is allowed to disturb him. Young children were never allowed near and adults were only allowed to walk past at a distance if absolutely necessary. The only person who was allowed to share in the dog's bowl was the cat! That of course was the dog's choice.
> 
> I am not surprised that a heavy, hairy dog like a Chow Chow did not want to go running.


err i didnt write that i kept taking his food off him ! i didnt write that ! i wrote that when i tried it he growled and so i didnt do it again or try dealing with the issue !

sometimes you go near a dish where a dog is eating and the dog growls ! fact ! some dogs do some dogs dont! none of my other dogs ever did it i add to me so i as stated was surprised by the reaction of the dog.

sometimes one needs to move the dish out of the way or just pass by the dog close by in a kitchen where the dog eats ! and in this case as in some dogs cases the dog growls ! so ? i said the dog did NOT growl at my mother for touching his bowl of food or anywhere near him when he ate.

you are assuming i was trying to annoy the dog continually taking his food off him ! that was not the case and nothing i wrote indicated that and now i have reaffirmed my original statement....

i was actually expecting more a response on the lines of my mother should have tried to communicate to the dog that it was not a threat that i try touch his dish or pass near it...sometimes i just wanted to put more food in the dish ! he ate scraps of our food ! so sometimes there were some more for him...but the dog did not want me near his dish...not just me...my sister also...only my mother he had NO ISSUES with ! as stated. she did not either continually as you suggest try taking his food off him !

now if i want to take the dish from my current dogs off them to put more food into the dishes i have no issues ! the dogs are happy about it ! know i am going to put more food in ...and in their cases not ONCE did they even as pupies growl at me near their food dishes !

"And you wonder why he growled when anyone went near his food? "
you ask...and i say YES ! i never had it before and never had it since from any pup i had. ...some dogs do some dogs dont ! i had 1 dog that did. It is called RESOURCE GUARDING i add to remind you of the techie term used here ! so ? hardly an uncommon issue with some dogs i suggest !

how to DEAL with it you dont address in your reply...but dont worry i gave details of how we did that...mother fed him, no issues, we avoided going near him and he never ate anything out in public just in case he might RESOURCE GUARD there being a danger to others. NO FOOD OUTSIDE HOUSE was a rule for dogs and even us kids who otherwise would no doubt have wanted icecreams etc all over the place...and certainly the DOGS were not to go begging for food off others either ...they could eat poison if so allowed ! so in those days that rule was sensible and worked.

I see that YOU ban others going near the dogs when eating...so a similar way to the way that issue was dealt with in my case ! didnt need a ban...mother didnt need to TELL me to keep away i add i just did ! so no more issues...

OTHER people however deal with it differntly...other people with kids do NOT allow their dogs to growl at them if they go near the dishes...they train the dog to accept it...well that wasnt our way i repeat...too much effort ! and no other kids were at risk as no food ever put down if kids were around ! the dog would not even be in the same ROOM as any kids if eating if other peoples kids !!! my mother didnt give ORDERS to other peoples kids ! the dog ate isolated from them ! simpler ! no danger.

i do not approve of TEASING dogs ! what you are suggesting in your reply by saying continually taking dish off a dog is to me TEASING ! that is unacceptable behaviour of a human to me...i dont tease or allow teasing even of BALLS with my dogs by others and i certainly dont do it.

now to reply comment of my choice of dog breed in a chow...no surprise he didnt want to go for runs...you say...and i agree...knowing now more about certain breeds Chows cannot run well in fact ! they are i saw on KC list on the health high issues in breed standard list !!!

and to reply here to other seen stronger words of criticism of me in fact for CHOOSING that breed as a pet knowing i liked RUNNING well excuse me but i as said was a TEENAGER and did not have any idea DOGS CANT RUN ! in my young mind ALL HEALTHY DOGS CAN AND LIKE TO RUN ! the fact that i now know SOME breeds are bred to NOT be able to run well is knowledge that is useful to me now..and i chose therefore BELGIAN SHEPHERDS this time and after or at same time as the Chow another poodle in fact i recall.

Chow and i didnt have conflicts other than the one over resource guarding his food dish when a pup as described...he went out for walks runs a bit with me but much prefered to stay indoors pottering around my mother actually or sitting on the couch. he was a lovely dog in nature other than the food dish issue i add. calm, regal, observing...and affectionate...particularly to MOTHER !!! lol !!! his favorite we all saw that and found it HILARIOUS as she even then used to keep saying...horrible dog...go away...i dont like dogs...bag of of hair...get off that couch ! etc etc ! but she didnt really mean it...she loved that dog ! 

ps you have cats eating ok with dogs i see...me too my one dog is ok about it not the other dog..but he will growl if my other dog goes near his dish i add too..so not just the cat...different attitudes...none of them growl at me of course...not when pups or when adults over proximity to their food. they LIKE me putting more food in their dishes ! lol !


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> because i taught him this was, and never would be acceptable.


How did you do it?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Elles said:


> How did you do it?


By wagging my finger and saying no......................


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Elles said:


> I don't think everyone thinks that a puppy growling over a toy is challenging the owner's godlike status, or being defiant.
> 
> So the question is difficult to answer, as I and many others don't think like that.
> 
> ...


err i thought that is what i asked...experiences and how managed ? ah i see a link to resource guarding...will go read that then thanks...

and any links to read to related topic welcome of course ! i didnt put any because i dont know them ! i read a couple of books like culture clash and perfect puppy i still have the books in fact...i do think they suggested making the pups accept people touching their food...i think i recall that being the case but cant recall the details of how to do it they suggested...i could find the books again maybe...but obviously it didnt stick in my mind not having an issue with my current dogs...i read the books when i got my bitch pup 3 years ago now....but she never displayed any resource guarding over food to me except that example i gave in original entry post over eating dogpooh ...

ps just went to that thread...here are the found links to books etc on the subject of RESOURCE GUARDING...

How to React When Your Dog Begins Resource Guarding Against Other Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article

How to Prevent Resource Guarding in a Multiple-dog Household | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
male to male aggression book; Brenda Aloff Aggression in Dogs
Jean Donaldson Fight! A practical guide to the treatment of dog to dog aggression
Patricia B McConnell & Karen B London Feisty Fido, Help for the lead Aggressive Dog

..................;

I see i even posted a reply to someone with a prob there ! lol !

now the above seem to deal with not the topic here but dog to dog aggression, resource guarding to other dogs...

and my thread here was more focused on AGGRESSION TO OWNER OF PUPPY how dealt with experiences...

and in the other thread i do not see REAL LIFE EXAMPLES of how even resource guarding was dealt with i add...

the very long detailed techie explanation that seems good to try and reread of ousi i see there...but it is not a PERSONAL EXAMPLE post it is general theory post....

i am PRACTICAL and i like REAL LIFE EXAMPLES if theory is put to me...as most people ?

i dont mind criticism obviously received when giving PERSONAL EXPERIENCES DETAILS ! but i dont see those that often criticise giving examples of how THEY dealt with the theories very well...some give details and examples others dont, those that dont provide theories i note...all well and good but that doesnt compute to me very well without real life examples of a personal experience...

ARE THERE ANY OTHER reasons other than RESOURCE GUARDING meaning toys and food to be specific that pups have shown aggression to owners on ??

i can think of any for myself...maybe others had other than resource guarding issues with pup aggressions to them ? no ? then does that mean pups will ONLY be aggressive to owners if RESOURCE GUARDING ? 
le 
i am not interested in this post in male to male dog resource guarding...it is AGGRESSION of PUP to OWNER i am interested in here...

but i dont mind reading experiences and views on related issues ... the example of a dog of someone here who resource guarded food against both other dogs and people but not the cat was interesting for example...dont recall if it mentioned aggression to the owner however...but certainly that case was resource guarding..

onwards...i am pleased that i understand RESOURCE GUARDING now i add...it was yes for me when my current dogs were pups a slight issue...slight as they were pups...and it did not continue...the CHOW example was when a pup and did continue but dealt with by AVOIDANCE and ISOLATION for feeding..

which is NOT the method i see advocated in the ouesi post and others...i see trying to REMOVE resource guarding even methods there...so there are several options...ALLOW resource guarding or CHANGE it.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> You *can* do whatever you wish with your dogs, but I thought I was pretty clear that positive reinforcement is most effective long term.
> Saying "no" and wagging your finger in the dog's face is NOT effective. I deliberately used what I thought was a silly example of something that is not a good approach.


"" colloquial terms, positive reinforcement simply means that instead of punishing a dog for doing something you dislike, teach the dog what to do instead and reward them for doing that. 
For example, if I don't want a dog to jump, I could wag my finger in his face and say "no, no, bad dog," maybe knee him in the chest, OR, I could teach him to sit and reward him for sitting instead of jumping."

ok. we are back to saying whilst there are alternatives, and saying NO to a dog is 1 option, that is NOT what is called POSITIVE ummm REINFORCEMENT !

sigh. and there was me thinking POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT had options...ok understood...THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE is really what you are saying ..meaning to get BEST RESULTS only NICE things must be done to make the dogs behaviour change.

sigh.

well all that CRATE and ISOLATION punishment advocated in books like The Culture Clash and PErfect Puppy books is WRONG then ? !!! seems so !

because of course CRATING and ISOLATION are NEGATIVES !

but ? people do it ! once even gets results !

we are now into coodgey cooing all the time to get anything from our dogs ?

sigh

sorry no i am not sorry i cant support that view.

Ok let me try and explain from a GENERAL life attitude stance...

Life has good and bad in it

Dogs have good and bad experiences just as humans do in their different ways of course

We all learn from the good and bad

We cannot AVOID the bad ! dogs cant avoid being BITTEN in PLAY too hard by other pups ! they LEARN bite control in fact that way ! a NEGATIVE way if taking this POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT theory to a specific INTER DOG learning example !!!

so ? dogs are to learn to be only POSITIVE to each other when learning bite control playing as pups ? errrrrr !!!!  how is that going to happen ? we think the DOGWORLD is going to change its behaviours and methods then ??? 

strewth...excuse me but let me not ramble but just stick to that one example...of DOGS ACCEPTING from EACH OTHER NEGATIVE LESSONS ! in a SHORT period of time pups learn BITE CONTROL from unpleasant pains from their playmates !

just as humans learn not to smack each other around in the playground !

it is a matter of DEGREE of the pain and LENGTH of learning only for the puppy bite control ! and i never saw that as being very long between pups ! they LEARN FAST !


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

rona said:


> I've only been bitten by one of my dogs, it was on a day she was working, it was the end of the day and she just shut her eyes and lashed out. I don't think it was aimed at me but at pain. She died just a month later


that is sad and yes obviously because she was in pain. she is at rest now. lovely dog. lovely relationship.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Most people get bitten by their own dog when they try to be "the boss" and force a dog to do something without understanding why he does not want to do it.
> 
> My late newfie boy, the sweetest and gentlest dog, would have bitten anyone, including me, who tried to touch under his tail. He was terrified and would lash out.
> 
> Most dogs will only lash out in fear, so the answer is to learn what scares them and avoid it.


no it is not the case of all dogs or pups. just now rona gave example of dog in pain who tried to bite her in her last days.

and it is not just those cases, you make a general assumption without stats to support it but ok a personal view held that most people get bitten due to trying to be the BOSS...well i dunno of the 500 000 officially reported bites by dogs of humans a year in say France alone how many of those were KIDS TRYING TO BE THE BOSS ? maybe just stepped on a dogs tail ? hurt the dog ? seems likely ! accidents happen !

so i dont agree that one can assume people were trying to be the boss for the majority of bites received by dogs.

i certainly havent been bitten like most dog owners for just giving a tug on the lead to move on to my dogs ! we would end up with bitten people mass population otherwise ! i dont use leads like that hardly i add but hey dogs on short leads get slight pulls all the time by owners !

the dog doesnt see that as aggressive ! learns to understand the message sent and reacts ! isnt going to BITE its owner !

the tug on lead is a physical force yes ! not tempting the dog with treats ! the OWNER DECIDES it wants to move on and pulls on the lead ! that happen EVERYWHERE ! people dont have DISCUSSIONS with their dogs about that ! ok my dogs WALK OFF LEAD easily i add but it is illegal ! i give voice commands to them they have 5 meter leads and can do as they please i add...i control them ! but occasionally a pull on the lead is given yes !


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

I have owned Akita's all my life & imo the first thing you should teach any dog especially a large breed is the word NO!

I would also teach the dogs to move away from their food if any one goes near it, i could / can easily remove food, bones, chews & toys from my dogs without any hassle.

Agressive behaviour towards any one in my house is not acceptable imo & i do believe positive reinforcement can be effective if used correctly.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Dingle said:


> I have owned Akita's all my life & imo the first thing you should teach any dog especially a large breed is the word NO!
> 
> I would also teach the dogs to move away from their food if any one goes near it, i could / can easily remove food, bones, chews & toys from my dogs without any hassle.
> 
> Agressive behaviour towards any one in my house is not acceptable imo & i do believe positive reinforcement can be effective if used correctly.


I LOVE AKITAS ! BOTH KINDS ! i dont write that just because i like your post i add...i am not that PERSONAL !!! 

good..you dealt differently to me with my chow for this umm resource guarding food i see...you DEALT with it ! i didnt ! i AVOIDED the issue and just ensured safety of others while the dog ate ! ..

i do see i criticise myself now for what i accpeted i add

i didnt have that behaviour with my other dogs and i just backed off conflict and that dog could have bitten others if not isolated.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Maybe try this way...
> 
> Positive as in adding something, like in math.
> Negative as in taking something away, again, like in math.
> ...


"So, positive reinforcement means that you ADD something the dog likes to make that behavior stronger, or more likely to happen again."

well i agree with this bit most of all ! and saying NO to say CHASING A CAT is NEGATIVE but communicates MY desire to the dog and STROKING my dog is reward for obeying

i dont NEED to repeat that order i add much if ever when my dogs are loose around strange animals ! they have LEARNT not to rush up to them from my having said NO ! negatively yes !

and i dont see any other way to have taught them that in this specific example ! ok there is an alternative always...i saw sometimes here people told to DISTRACT the dogs with toys treats ! and i say THAT IS NOT THE TEST ! that works of course because the dog is DISTRACTED ! i needed my dogs to FACE the CHALLENGE to RESIST while SEEING what attracted them right in front of them ! because the NEXT order would be ? GO GET THE ANIMALS ! my dogs NEED to STAY FOCUSED ! not distracted by treats when i am herding !

well done ! is the positive message i can sometimes do afterwards when they have done so of course ! but it is not often needed ! the dogs have learnt what i want, they enjoy doing it for WHATEVER REASON pleasing me or them it is of no interest at that moment to me...and they dont come to me for pets either ! if they did they would be losing focus on the task in hand !!! that is positive ! but i repeat ! this specific example alone is good enough to say TREATS and TOYS and DISTRACTION of another POSITIVE kind to DISTRACT my dogs from what they want to chase is NOT A GOOD WAY to learn ! in fact BAD way ! they are SUPPOSED to be facing undistracted what is in front of them !

hope that helps !

i add i dont WANT my dogs only doing things if they get a reward from me ! non ! they must DO things without coming back to me for treats ! for sure i stroke my dogs often ! love to ! they love it too ! but NOT WHEN BALL FETCHING OR HERDING ! feja in particular is NOT interested in any distraction like that ! so i agree with her !


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> no it is not the case of all dogs or pups. just now rona gave example of dog in pain who tried to bite her in her last days.
> 
> and it is not just those cases, you make a general assumption without stats to support it but ok a personal view held that most people get bitten due to trying to be the BOSS...well i dunno of the 500 000 officially reported bites by dogs of humans a year in say France alone how many of those were KIDS TRYING TO BE THE BOSS ? maybe just stepped on a dogs tail ? hurt the dog ? seems likely ! accidents happen !
> 
> ...


Rona's dog reacted in fear because it was in pain and was afraid when she got close that it would hurt. Same reason I got bitten by a little Westie, who turned out to have an ear infection. He was afraid I was getting close enough to hurt him.

Same thing really, fear, pain.

Children usually get bitten because some idiot leaves them alone with a dog that is not theirs. I would not leave even my two big friendly dopes alone with a strange child. How does anyone know that the child has not hurt or frighten it?

I do not believe in tugging leads, no, but if I were to tug on the lead of either of my dogs, they would sit down and refuse to move. Especially Ferdie who will not walk on a lead anyway. We have many places where we can let a well behaved and friendly dog off lead, so that is never a problem.

You say most dog owners have been bitten for tugging on a lead? I have never seen this happen, so I think "most" is a bit of an exaggeration.

My point of view and my opinions come solely from thirty years of experience as a dog owner.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Rona's dog reacted in fear because it was in pain and was afraid when she got close that it would hurt. Same reason I got bitten by a little Westie, who turned out to have an ear infection. He was afraid I was getting close enough to hurt him.
> 
> Same thing really, fear, pain.
> 
> ...


not leaving kids alone with dogs you say ! i couldnt agree more ! some even may i dare many dog owners dont share that view !

no i wrote or think i wrote that if dogs didnt like being pulled on leads and bit their owners for it in return there would be masses of people bitten by their dogs out there ! the fact is many people pull or give tugs on leads to their dogs i stated and DONT get bitten or any aggression towards them from their dogs

and i wrote my dogs are on leads simply to comply with local laws they are 5 meter leads i dont if rarely pull on i give voice commands to them

doesnt need a lead for my feja bitch to sit down and refuse to walk on i add laughing seeing you have that issue if you pulled on a lead !  she is a very :ihih:willful dog ! doesnt LIKE walks on pavements even ! it doesnt interest her going to shops etc ! she wants ? to be IN THE FIELDS ACTIVE with me ! darned nuissance hey !!!  when i would like today to go WALK to the post office even ! that doesnt interest feja ! falcon yes ! FEJA is focused on more limited things than falcon dog...and SIT DOWN is a very used behaviour to communicate that to me since a pup for sure !

i will deal with her later....no i wont leave her in the car...she does like sitting in it...but she wont like us going off without her could kick off barking lol !!!  one bark and i get her out again...and we have a discussion and even a tug on lead if i see her bottom heading downwards !!! lol !!! ALLER ! MAGASIN !!! DIT BONJOUR MADAME !!! i will say to her trying to make her interested in meeting someone she likes that for attention...but it DOES NOT WORK well that enticement ! ooh lalla non ! 

KNOW WHAT YOU WANT is a very good starting point in life for anyting...and knowing what FEJA wants is not what I always want in the case of trip to post office !!! lol !!! and it NEVER WILL BE ! i understand that...but SHE WANTS TO BE WITH ME also !!! so there is the DILEMA for HER and for me too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> no i wrote or think i wrote that if dogs didnt like being pulled on leads and bit their owners for it in return there would be masses of people bitten by their dogs out there ! the fact is many people pull or give tugs on leads to their dogs i stated and DONT get bitten or any aggression towards them from their dogs
> 
> and i wrote my dogs are on leads simply to comply with local laws they are 5 meter leads i dont if rarely pull on i give voice commands to them
> 
> ...


Ferdie will sit down as soon as he knows there is a lead on him. It doesn't need to be tugged. Diva walks on a lead like a dream, bless her, always next to me, but Ferdie thinks he is a big boy now and doesn't need a lead. For this reason he does not get walked along the pavement, because that would be dangerous without a lead.

He has a lot of little quirks that one needs a sense of humour for. If he doesn't want to walk across the heath with me and Diva, he sits down and howls. He is not a dog for the easily embarrassed.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

ps excuse me using capitals if you think i am shouting...that is not my intention i am trying to STRESS certain important words only...

when we talk we HEAR the influctations or word like that of emotions and meaning and stress...on the internet in written word we cant convey that important part of communication

and our DOGS even understand our TONES of voice also i add ! it is very very important in communicating to them for me

they sense and know my moods...how urgent the command is or not..i cannot always even convey it well to them i add ! say it too casually ! not enough stress ! not enough thinking it to convey it telepathically also maybe


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Ferdie will sit down as soon as he knows there is a lead on him. It doesn't need to be tugged. Diva walks on a lead like a dream, bless her, always next to me, but Ferdie thinks he is a big boy now and doesn't need a lead. For this reason he does not get walked along the pavement, because that would be dangerous without a lead.
> 
> He has a lot of little quirks that one needs a sense of humour for. If he doesn't want to walk across the heath with me and Diva, he sits down and howls. He is not a dog for the easily embarrassed.


:dita: i love that he has HUMOUR SI !! si si !!

and our dogs dont have compunctions about farting either or burping lol !!! oh how LUCKY they are for that ! 

yes it is a prob...my MALE has just kicked off biting the lead even lately !!! due to me putting it on just to go out due ot locals kicking off it seen off lead even in the CORRIDOR !

sigh

dogs dont see the need for leads when they stay by us for sure...and i understand that...sigh...but cars are dangerous for them and there are laws...sigh


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

an example when pup of when i expected aggression to me and didnt get it...nothing to do with resource guarding...


FEJA got like later pup Falcon also got stung by nettles badly in the woods as a pup...was in agony soon after returning home...crying whining frantically biting and licking her stings...

she was 8 weeks old...i cursed myself for not thinking to stop her going into the nettles part of the wood..s happens...she was in pain...

i got antiseptics creams all sorts fast to put on her paws...i was expecting resistance aggression towards me from her because she was in pain...i got licks on my hands and face...the pup understood i was trying to help...she kept calm even in her pain to allow it...i was humbled...

now pls dont see this as one upmanship over rona case given here...not the same thing at all...my pup was young...she was not in the suffering of ronas dog far greater i think...and any dog can bite in pain...i repeat i was expecting it and that is not good as we transmit our expectations to the dog somehow...and if she had defended herself and bit me even i would not have held that against her

falcon was the same later as a pup same darned mistake of mine and nettles hey....


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> What do you class as a bite? what do you class as a dog challenging you? When I first got Dexter both my Ex and I were bruised from wrist to elbow- he never broke the skin, he mouthed- hard- because he did not know better. He also humped - if this was ignored he jumped face height barking at you- whilst trying to mouth some more.
> 
> Did i see it as an attempt to over power the human race ? NO I saw it as a year old dog who had never in his life known right from wrong, had been stray, had spent time in kennels, did not know any different.
> 
> ...


before i go out to post office etc i reply to this post...
<<an attempt to over power the human race ?>> you wrote implying the dog behaviour could be interpreted by some as that...

 lol !!! never occured to me ever no that any dog had such motives !!! dont know where you heard that from ? someone said that did they ? not me ! dont think dogs think like that !!!  only humans and some not all !

you dont have a resource guarding issue you say...fine !! good ! some people do ! due to NOTHING they have done to a pup other than reach towards something the pup wants to hold onto ! no aggression to pup ! just a hand towards a toy or food can make some pups growl!!! fact ! no need to make a big thing about it ! not saying that the owner THREATENED VIOLENTLY the pup ! it just is a natural reaction from very young pups sometimes !

so ? you didnt have that with your dogs, i didnt have that with any of my dogs except one dog, and many dont have it and many have it !

what conclusion can be made of that ? that those that have it have done something different to those that didnt ? i dont think so ! it is just that the pups reacted differently ! needed to learn therefore what is acceptable or not !

it is nothing to do with world dominance in the pups mind or the owner when that happens !

<<a "no teeth" policy >> is your policy you write well i see the word NO in that ! no mention of HOW you got to the NO TEETH POLICY i add ! distractions ? alternatives ? not using the word NO ? i dont see anything to tell me how you achieved that no teeth policy here...

darned good thing you managed eventually to get the bite control on humans sorted ! needed sorting ! his natural unacceptable to humans behaviour needed correcting ! and you did correct it.

ps sorry i didnt answer your question so edit here... you ask WHAT IS A BITE ? WHAT IS A DOG CHALLENGING YOU ? 2 questions in fact ok...

a bite is a dog seizing HARD a human to reach the flesh of the human to me
a dog challenging a human....is one of 2 actions to me...
1. attacking a human with barks and lunges with obvious intention to end up in a bite...and 
2. refusing to do what a human has communicated as the human wish for behaviour when the dog UNDERSTANDS what is wanted...

not understanding what a human wants from it

the LAST case i add is a CHALLENGE in the GENERAL sense of the word meaning an issue that the human needs to deal with, a problem of communication. it is NOT the DOGS action but LACK of action in fact if you follow my meaning...the dog has NOT challenged the human with aggression but simply not done something as it did not understand...so the CHALLENGE is for the human to try and make it understand.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> :dita: i love that he has HUMOUR SI !! si si !!
> 
> *and our dogs dont have compunctions about farting either or burping lol !!! *oh how LUCKY they are for that !
> 
> ...


I know a lot of people who don't have any compunction doing that, either unfortunately



FEJA JUODAS said:


> an example when pup of when i expected aggression to me and didnt get it...nothing to do with resource guarding...
> 
> FEJA got like later pup Falcon also got stung by nettles badly in the woods as a pup...was in agony soon after returning home...crying whining frantically biting and licking her stings...
> 
> ...


It does depend on the degree of pain and it depends on whether the dog knows you are easing his suffering or whether he is scared. I once went to my daughter's house because her son had phoned to say his English Mastiff had cut his paw and was limping badly. I got some salty warm water and cotton wool and bathed it; he never said a word, just gave me a little nudge for comfort. But, his little friend, a tiny CKC, was growling and barking at me because he thought I was hurting his massive great friend!


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> 2. refusing to do what a human has communicated as the human wish for behaviour when the dog UNDERSTANDS what is wanted...


That's not a challenge, that is something that you haven't trained properly.

If I am training a sit and my dog doesnt sit, I do not see it as a challenge. I see it as my fault for not training him enough.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

danielblackmore said:


> That's not a challenge, that is something that you haven't trained properly.


Very true. In fact, dogs do not challenge humans; it just doesn't happen. They may get scared and react, they may get cross and react (I would with some of the things they are asked to do) but they do not challenge. That is purely a human concept.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

danielblackmore said:


> That's not a challenge, that is something that you haven't trained properly.
> 
> If I am training a sit and my dog doesnt sit, I do not see it as a challenge. I see it as my fault for not training him enough.


keep it general not personal i suggest...i did not say I , i said humans meaning generally...

meaning ? something that a human has not trained properly...do not assume I have that problem ! if you dont have it also...you dont mention that you do so do not suggest i have...unless i tell you i have...by saying YOU when making a criticism you are making it direct and personal...best to DIFUSE possible CHALLENGE perceived by the receiver of the message i suggest !  ie follow the advice some are giving about ? POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT ! having i hope given you an explanation as to why ! 

pretty please ?...but write what you wish, i just correct you in case you are meaning it only to apply to me. I think your statement could apply to many people, not just me i add. Unless you think only me ? dont try suggesting that if you wish to be positively reinforcing ! 

i see the definiation of a challenge as i stated clearly a general thing...people call challenges problems or challenges...i prefer the word problem myself. some people prefer the word CHALLENGE because it is supposed to be more POSITIVE ! again the modern wish for everything to seem or appear POSITIVE ! well of course the word PROBLEM is more NEGATIVE than CHALLENGE but i dare suggest we meaning everyone generally who prefers or wishes to insist on use of the word CHALLENGE for a PROBLEM should also therefore BAN the word PROBLEM !!!

oh dear..your example given of failing to teach your dog to sit...you see as a FAILURE !!! your failure !!! 

FAILURE is a NEGATIVE WORD like PROBLEM !!! 

you are being NEGATIVE !!! 

i would say to that problem of yours...excuse me using the word problem...i dont know what WORD to use for the CHALLENGE facing the need to teach to sit ??? can you tell me what word you would use for that ? the OBJECTIVE ? GOAL ? aim ?

anyway...FAILURE is not an option if we are being positive !!!

i wouldnt see not getting an immediate response to teaching to sit as necessarily failure just a challenge to me to deal with positively !

see the difference ?

if there is one ? !

my words and thoughts on that seem to me more POSITIVE than yours are !

i add...giving example of how my latest 2 dogs were taught to sit...

1. feja the older dog first...it was tried by trainer at pup school a qualified trainer ...he used a treat to encourage her saying the word SIT and gently pushing on her bottom to show her what he wanted her to do.

what did feja do ? SNARLED in FRUSTRATION at not getting the TREAT in front of her nose teasing her maybe in her mind...and ATTACKED the trainer !

I add...i warned the trainer..do NOT use a treat...do NOT distract her from what you are trying to teach her !

was i right ? after that i of course tried alone with feja...i used NO TREAT just did exactly the same as the trainer did gently pushing her bottom down and saying SIT ...and ? success ! did that a couple of times more...then the next day again a couple of times...and that was it.

just the other day yesterday i was sitting in the field with my dogs and just out of idleness thought ..teach them to ROLL OVER !!! ja ! so i gently pushed them each in turn saying the word ROLL to them and it was fine ! did it a few times and they did it themselves no pushing. no treats involved.

not needed i add ! what do i need with dogs on their backs !!! 

giving the paw was easy...they PAW me if they want something sometimes so i just said the word PAW whenever they did that and so now when i saw PAW they do the paw gesture.

barking the same... when they barked i said the word BARK so now when i say the word BARK they BARK !

didnt think of imitating a bark for them to copy i add !!!  they look very confused if i try a bark ! obviously not a good dog barker !!! 

if i dont succeed...again using positive words not saying...if i fail...i dont see that as my failure necessarily either ! could just be the dog is not in the mood for it ! the same efforts and method would work if it was !!! that is possible ! and likely ! sometimes it is not worth insisting ! if the dog has a mood that means it is not going to pay attention, then leave it alone ! that is not a failure to me just common sense ! i am not looking to BLAME either the dog or myself !

i suggest you shouldnt either ! you dont FAIL ! that is a strong word ! for not manageing to get a SIT immediately you want it ! especially in the early days ! once the dog has learnt the word and say maybe doesnt obey it later on then look for reasons yes ! but as i try saying here...could be just an off day ! if the dog sees no POINT in doing a SIT then it wont on occasion ! and i certainly dont see much point in doing sits often ! it is not an order or thing taught my dogs know and do easily that i use often even not occasionally !

the orders i teach my dogs and expect them to obey are more STOP ! STAY ! MOVE ! TURN RIGHT ! LEFT ! RUN ! FETCH ! CIRCLE ! WAIT ! STOP BARK ! HERE ! WALK TO HEEL ! WALK ! PUT DOWN ! FIND ! ...the last one not very important i add...i use it if i lose something they know the word for or the car when i forget where i parked it...

those are what i call PRIMARY ESSENTIAL orders...non compliance or refusal of any of those are no-nos in certain circumstances...

other orders they know are not PRIMARY orders so i dont make a fuss about them if the dog doesnt feel like it...and my tone of voice tells them that...as well as them knowing SIT is NOT am important order because it serves no purpose to me or them that any of us can see ! nor is ROLL or PAW ! and others like it.

we do agree on that my dogs and i ...i really cant give a toss if they sit or not...but STAND STILL and STOP yes if about to cross the road.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

not relevant i add to the theme of this thread but...since i mentioned it and i ramble yes to my dogs and here...and maybe of interest to complete another issue mentioned here...

we went to post office. sigh

half the journey ..BY CAR !!! 

the rest on foot walking yes

why ? feja gets into the car easier than when she sees us about to head off for a WALK on PAVEMENTS not direction of the FIELDS !

so ? we drove to VETS ! she likes going there i said we are going to the vet...both dogs love that idea...ATTENTION it means to THEM ...we DID go to the vets...i NEVER LIE TO MY DOGS ! i dont PRETEND ! i dont use words to entice them that i dont do afterwards if i get what i want from them...very important to me that...dogs are dogs but they are not to be lied to ! not teased ! feja and falcon would know...they would not be easy after a few tricks like that i dont think


then i said SHOP ! SAY HELLO LADY ! POST OFFICE ! words she knows meaning we are off there on foot...sigh...sit down...

but eventually we got there sniffing along the way with yes a little lead tug and me saying coodgey coo words..

we get to the shop post office FEJA dead happy gets attetnion ffrom lady in shop she adores and then ?

SIT DOWN ! refusal to LEAVE the shop !!! 

i went back in bought some croissants she likes but she was barking and sitting down refusing the enticement to advance...i know my dog she wont be fooled by treats like that ...she knew i was trying to entice her with food to move !!!! 

MOVE IT !!! MOO MOO COWS ! those last words meaning FIELDS ! 

and ? off she trotted !!!!

yes ! i admit and say I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH FEJA ! for this ! she does not WANT to go for a walk on a lead ! she does not WANT to go anywhere but the fields where the cows and chickens are ! she WANTS to be THERE not anywhere else !

she likes people ! loves attention ! but will NOT choose people to her interests ! and leaving the shop was NOT what she wanted either of course once she was getting attention there ! it is a child ! i am dealing with a stubborn child ! some people have them ! and treats mean NOTHING to her ! she is wary of them even ! ball ? dont even SUGGEST that in a shop to get her out !!! she is BALL MAD ! she wont advance for a ball ! she will want to PLAY ball and we will get BARKS about it !!! lol !! i adore my dog but she is not easy no. but NOT AGGRESSIVE no either...she talks to me. does not try to bite me. when a pup i gave the example of when she try that over dogpooh she wanted to eat.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I know a lot of people who don't have any compunction doing that, either unfortunately
> 
> It does depend on the degree of pain and it depends on whether the dog knows you are easing his suffering or whether he is scared. I once went to my daughter's house because her son had phoned to say his English Mastiff had cut his paw and was limping badly. I got some salty warm water and cotton wool and bathed it; he never said a word, just gave me a little nudge for comfort. But, his little friend, a tiny CKC, was growling and barking at me because he thought I was hurting his massive great friend!


yes some people inflict their body odours on others badly...the LIFT is the worst ! enclosed space ! and remains of someones intestines floating in the air !! people even do SBD ! silent but deadlies !!  very antisocial but as some say when doing that or burps...BETTER OUT THAN IN ! yes some actually say that hey ! lol !

aah...nice doggy...cared for his mate...and for sure we arent going to be annoyed at that behaviour...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> by saying YOU when making a criticism you are making it direct


It's one of those English things.  'You' can mean 'you' generally, not you personally, it can even include the person saying it.

We could use the word 'one' instead, but that's a bit Queen like.

So it could have been put as 'It means one hasn't done it right.' to apply to all the ones who haven't, but the Queen uses 'one' to mean herself. So if she says 'One does not like cupcakes.' she means herself, but she could also say 'We do not like cupcakes' which would also mean just herself, whereas if I said 'We do not like cupcakes.' I would be talking about myself and at least one other.

Us English hey?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

generally dogs are NOT aggressive to their owners for things like ?

pulling them on leads, directing them with leads...they may like mine and someone here BITE the LEADS, PULL on the leads and SIT DOWN to refuse to walk on leads yes, but aggression meaning violence towards their owners ? no.

the lead is a physical force all dog owners use on dogs. like it or not that is what it is. it is a control tool.

by law and for the dogs safety on roads we use leads.

dogs prefer to be free of them naturally ! only a dog who say picks up the lead to give to owner knowing that means a WALK will show such positive action towards a lead for that reason ! otherwise ? it dislikes the lead

we therefore use FORCE and CONTROL on our dogs daily:

they do NOT aggress us for it no.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2013)

Feja, I'm just going to address a few points in your posts.


FEJA JUODAS said:


> ok. we are back to saying whilst there are alternatives, and saying NO to a dog is 1 option, that is NOT what is called POSITIVE ummm REINFORCEMENT !


No, saying "no" to a dog with the intent of making a behavior diminish is NOT positive reinforcement.
Reinforcement is anything that makes a behavior increase in frequency.
Punishment is anything that makes a behavior diminish in frequency.

Things do get muddy when trying to decipher if what you're doing is positive or negative reinforcement, or positive or negative punishment, and truly, only the dog knows for sure. 
But there is no confusion about what is punishment and what is reinforcement as the dog's behavior decides that for you. If what you do makes a behavior stop or reduce in frequency, then it is punishment. If what you do makes a behavior increase in frequency, then it is reinforcement.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> sigh. and there was me thinking POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT had options...ok understood...THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE is really what you are saying ..meaning to get BEST RESULTS only NICE things must be done to make the dogs behaviour change.


Actually, positive reinforcement has truly endless options. Anything can be a reward, whatever the dog finds reinforcing. For many dogs, the work itself is the reward.

Telling a dog what NOT to do is what is limiting. I can tell a dog not to jump on me, but that leaves him unlimited other options. He could choose to mouth me, pee on me, ignore me, run off, go aggravate the other dogs... But if I tell him to sit, he has one option. Sit. And if he's sitting as cued, he's not jumping on me. Jumping problem solved, and no further problems created.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> well all that CRATE and ISOLATION punishment advocated in books like The Culture Clash and PErfect Puppy books is WRONG then ? !!! seems so !


It's not about right and wrong. Nothing is "right" or "wrong" when it comes to training a dog as long as it is humane. However, there is effective and ineffective. Crating a dog can be an effective strategy. It can also be inhumane if taken to extremes. Common sense should prevail.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> because of course CRATING and ISOLATION are NEGATIVES !
> 
> but ? people do it ! once even gets results !
> 
> ...


You are not understanding the terminology. Negative simply means taking something away.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> Ok let me try and explain from a GENERAL life attitude stance...
> 
> Life has good and bad in it
> 
> ...


Positive reinforcement is ONE of four quadrants of learning theory. All four quadrants are valid.
You're expressing some very common misconceptions about PR training. Of course there have to be consequences for behavior, good or bad. However, if those consequences don't have to be scary, painful, or forceful. Since they don't have to be scray, forceful, or painful, I would argue that they should NOT be.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> and i dont see any other way to have taught them that in this specific example ! ok there is an alternative always...i saw sometimes here people told to DISTRACT the dogs with toys treats ! and i say THAT IS NOT THE TEST ! that works of course because the dog is DISTRACTED ! i needed my dogs to FACE the CHALLENGE to RESIST while SEEING what attracted them right in front of them ! because the NEXT order would be ? GO GET THE ANIMALS ! my dogs NEED to STAY FOCUSED ! not distracted by treats when i am herding !


Well if you don't see any other way to do it, don't do it any other way. There are people who DO see other ways of doing things and their ways are just as effective and often more effective than what you are doing. 
Another misconception. Treats and food and rewards are NOT supposed to be used as distractions. That is incorrect application of PR training. 
Honestly, I really don't think you understand what positive reinforcement training is. Maybe instead of arguing against it, just open your mind to the possibilities?
What is Possible? | Denise Fenzi



FEJA JUODAS said:


> i add i dont WANT my dogs only doing things if they get a reward from me ! non ! they must DO things without coming back to me for treats ! for sure i stroke my dogs often ! love to ! they love it too ! but NOT WHEN BALL FETCHING OR HERDING ! feja in particular is NOT interested in any distraction like that ! so i agree with her !


Ball fetchina and herding can be used as rewards. This is another misconception about PR training, that you can only use food. You can use whatever your dog finds rewarding. If you know how to condition a reward, you can condition your dog to whatever reward you want. 
Again, lots and lots of misconceptions about what PR training is.... Kind of hard to discuss it with you when we're not even talking about the same thing.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

no one here to date has given any example of a dog that bit the owner following a physical say reprimand or a verbal reprimand..

is that surprising ? well i say maybe those owners are NOT ON THIS FORUM !

are there any owners who get bitten for verbal or physical actions taken on their dogs ?

yes i think there are !

but it is unknown ! it is SECRET ! no one here has dared admit such a case !

why not if the case ? AFRAID of the BACKLASH they would receive here ?

that i think is a possible one reason yes ! 

and another reason ? they are not on this forum !

and another reason ? they would not tell because they see it as ? FAILURE !

many good reasons why we are not seeing anyone say...i hit my dog and it bit me !!! or i yelled at my dog and it bit me !

so ? 

i will say something now unafraid of your possible reactions and jumping to conclusions of me...

IF and i repeat IF i were in my view to hit my dog for something she or he did not understand why for...in repeated dramatic very aggressive non stop ways...yes...one of my 2 dogs i think WOULD attack me...the other ? would try and RUN from me

and i think that would be likely

and i think the relationship for the future would be damaged

I believe, if a dog, my dogs, most dogs understand a punishment and it is short sharp immediate and connnected to what they did wrong...they accept it...and repeats are not necessary often if at all in some cases...i believe dogs have a natural sense of JUSTICE...they will accept VERBAL reprimands as communication to them and learn from it...and sometimes if a hit takes place to correct or stop them in flull flight they will understand the WHY for it and accept it and think again next time

the example i have for that belief ? many sheepdogs get overexcited in pursuit of the herd on occasion...especially in the early days...it is not a FAST QUICK WIN to sheepdog train ANY sheepdog...and shepherds crack whips use sticks on highly excited dogs sometimes to correct them and in the heat of exceitement the hits do not REGISTER even much with the dogs...but physical contact has been made...

those are exceptional cases and particular circumstances to specific dogs.

if like anything it were a repeated constant way of learning then i agree it would be counter productive. 

Humans use secret punishments to dogs that get no aggression back to the human like the certain techie modern collars also the dog does not KNOW who is hitting it so does not aggress its owner or anyone else. 

there is no aggression to owner by the dog in such cases as the dog does not relate or know where the aggression is coming from.

i cease. i have dared here; not being someone who beats their dogs meaning what some would like to see in me for even having said anything in favour of sometimes phyusical correction needed...i have dared say here what i think is common sense...not in highly complex difficult to understand without explanations theories no, the ordinary person does not want that as much as practical examples.

and i repeat...i was APALLED to read in modern books advice on CRATING REGULARLY DOGS as PUNISHEMENT ! isolating them REGULARLY as PUNISHMENT ! that is not HITTING a dog but in my view HORRIBLE and MORE UPSETTING that a smack now and then for taking food off the table that the dog can EASILY associate with an action disapproved of.

NOT that i do that ! unless VERY irritated ! do people NEVER have irritable moments ?

let me give yes HONESTLY a REAL EXAMPLE of one for me !!!

did this never happen to anyone else ? generally ? dont tell me not !

my dogs sometimes get stepped on...they are in pain...the one dog is upset or ignores it, the other snarls and shows teeth if stepped on hard. THAT IS TO ME i add ! not just anyone else ! have i been bitten ? no ! but i am lucky i think i HURT HER BADLY ! stepped on her !

now another example...

my dogs HEAD HIT my NOSE ridge badly the other day...REALLY HURT me ! unintentionally i add !!! i lashed out and hit her side with my hand in a reflex reaction due to the extreme pain of the accident !!! did my dog SNARL at me ? no ! this is the difficult dog i add ! she froze...ears back...didnt move...not a sound...i was of course right next to her and my arms went around her saying ACCIDENT ! you hurt me ! and hugged her and in the pain my nose was still feeling my dog was licking my face gently wagging her tail...she understood..it was an accident !!! she didnt mean to bang my nose in her excitement near me ! but it happened and in my pain i smacked her and at once hugged her saying it was an accident so she understood

have i seen my own very boisterous sometimes dogs be aggressive to each other and hurt each other in accident ?

yes ! and they SNARLED and lightly bit each other i add...and then calmed down and licked each other...that is what i saw...falcon is huge..he rushes sometimes too fast and bashes right into my smaller female..she SQUEELS in pain LASHES back with teeth at him...comes to me i add also looking for pets lol that i give her telling falcon DOUCEMENT ! shouting TAKE IT EASY ! and then the dogs go off ok again together...

do they lsoe their TEMPERS with each other and be aggressive to each other ? yes occasionally...same reactions...Teeth shown snaps growls...not a fight but yes physical and aggressive behaviour ...short and sharp and over fast.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Shadow bit me several times following both verbal and physical reprimands. I'm not afraid to admit it. I do however deeply regret the way I treated him in the name of training. I knew no better at the time but that doesn't make me regret it any less.

I'm not even sure what the point you're trying to make is any more though Feja.

I don't know what books you've read that tell you to crate your dog as punishment, the ones I've read say the crate should _never_ be used as punishment. I punish my dog, I will admit that. If he gets ridiculously excited when I pick his leash up I drop his leash and go and sit down. If he attempts to barge through the front door as I open it I shut the door and wait for him to go back into his sit. If he humps another dog I will remove him for a few moments to calm down and then let him go back to playing. I'm not sure it's possible to go through life without ever experiencing some sort of punishment. However, I choose not to hurt my dog in the name of training.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Shadow bit me several times following both verbal and physical reprimands. I'm not afraid to admit it. I do however deeply regret the way I treated him in the name of training. I knew no better at the time but that doesn't make me regret it any less.
> 
> I'm not even sure what the point you're trying to make is any more though Feja.
> 
> I don't know what books you've read that tell you to crate your dog as punishment, the ones I've read say the crate should _never_ be used as punishment. I punish my dog, I will admit that. If he gets ridiculously excited when I pick his leash up I drop his leash and go and sit down. If he attempts to barge through the front door as I open it I shut the door and wait for him to go back into his sit. If he humps another dog I will remove him for a few moments to calm down and then let him go back to playing. I'm not sure it's possible to go through life without ever experiencing some sort of punishment. However, I choose not to hurt my dog in the name of training.


And I bet he understands the meaning of those things far more than hitting him or wagging your finger at him!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Shadow bit me several times following both verbal and physical reprimands. I'm not afraid to admit it. I do however deeply regret the way I treated him in the name of training. I knew no better at the time but that doesn't make me regret it any less.
> 
> I'm not even sure what the point you're trying to make is any more though Feja.
> 
> I don't know what books you've read that tell you to crate your dog as punishment, the ones I've read say the crate should _never_ be used as punishment. I punish my dog, I will admit that. If he gets ridiculously excited when I pick his leash up I drop his leash and go and sit down. If he attempts to barge through the front door as I open it I shut the door and wait for him to go back into his sit. If he humps another dog I will remove him for a few moments to calm down and then let him go back to playing. I'm not sure it's possible to go through life without ever experiencing some sort of punishment. However, I choose not to hurt my dog in the name of training.


only now do you say your dog bit you when you hit him...without giving details ...of the circumstances and extent that you hit him of...only after i say after many posts here that no one has actually given an example of them hitting their dog and getting bitten for that or a verbal reprimand does anyone give an example...

and i say again that not having given such an example with details before i mentioned that lack of such posts here to date is evidence enough to me and most people generally if not those on this thread right now that you are not really answering the thread title therefore...you just want to finger point at me...not actually deal with the subject with YOUR PERSONAL EXAMPLES at all ! you want to look good only ! and dish out advice ! based on theories !

i am now not interested in hearing of your personal possibly even now MADE UP examples just to counter attack my correct assertion that no such examples were posted here to date on the thread theme !

tell them to others if you so wish now !

i by mistake i add trying to get back into this thread clicked on a name rather than the thread link and saw ?

"i'm so glad i'm not the only one she's like a french yoda on acid adn what is it with all the random capitalised words... can you imagine someone shouting like that in a conversation, I'd ram a croissant in their mush"

that is a message regarding ? me ? ramming croissant in my mush ?

nice hey ! for someone into POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT ! aggression ? lol ! you can give me no lessons using such language as that !  you defeat your own claims to be a supposedly non aggressive person even in that single quotation whoever the person was i really am not interested anymore even to go back and check that !!! 

carry on if you wish between your fellow croissant ramming into gobs of other humans as you wish here on this thread...that is not my kindda fun !  and i laugh at you for it and say nothing you could say now to me seeing that is relevant or believable on this thread any longer ! 

ps in case not clear...that means i am off this thread. enjoy yourselves between yourselves as you wish. cheers.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow...I don't think there's any need to start calling people liars because they disagree with you. No, I haven't gone into detail about the occasions Shadow bit me. Nor do I intend to rake up the past and leave myself open to attack by others because of mistakes I made nearly 15 years ago. If that makes me a liar in your eyes then so be it. 

And for the record I have not called you names. I don't know whose comment it was you read but I can assure you it was NOT mine.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I took on a young Border Collie who had been taken to the vet to be PTS for `biting` etc. Apparently he was so terrified of the man that he wet himself when taken there. 
When questioned the man said (1) he chased a squirrel so he stopped taking him out. 
(2) he nipped the kids when they stopped playing with him
(3) the dog didn`t know who was boss. 

So I had an unsocialised, under-excercised working breed who was owned by a bully and had children winding him up. 
He resource guarded like crazy. He had obviously spent a lot of time shut in a kitchen because he thought spoons were toys and defended them with his life. He got very upset at mealtimes. He was afraid of being touched and extremely worried about feet. 

so...
the feeding thing was easy. He goes in a room on his own to eat. He is hand-fed treats. Problem solved. 
For the guarding - I ignored him. When he realised no-one wanted his flipping spoon he relaxed a bit and walked round with it. Then I offered a biscuit and we swapped. Now he will happily give me anything - in fact he brings me things. 
The touch thing we worked on slowly. He is better now, although sometimes he will panic if I stretch out my feet close to him. But it will be resolved in time. 
I have never said No to him because he doesn`t speak English. 
He is now a delightful little dog.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> no one here to date has given any example of a dog that bit the owner following a physical say reprimand or a verbal reprimand..
> 
> is that surprising ? well i say maybe those owners are NOT ON THIS FORUM !
> 
> ...


So? So what? I don't hit my dogs, I don't yell at my dogs, I don't generally reprimand my dogs. That's not my personality anyway, but I also know that there are far more effective ways to gain cooperation.

We have a house full of resuce dogs. One raised as a puppy, and nope, she has never in any way shape or form aggressed towards us. Even when I fell on top of her in the middle of the night and landed with my face in her muzzle. She grunted and sniffed me. She saw it as the surprising event that it was, and since she has never had any negative experiences with humans, it never occurred to her to react defensively.

Our other dane did have a bite history when he came to us. And yep, he did bite me and on a separate occasion my husband, both instances handling errors on our part. So yes, very much a failure on our part. He was not reprimanded for either one of those bites. To what end? The issue was lack of trust, why errode it further? 
I think my husband did exclaim in surprise when he got bit, but he did not react apart from that. Again, to what end? The dog was guarding his food, he gave my husband a subtle warning, husband decided to "test" the warning and got bit. Thank you husband. Now we know he warns with a stare and the next step is bite. Good info to have.
In my case, I default to calm in an emergency, and since my fingers were firmly held in a giant dog's mouth, I remained calm and composed and negotiated with the dog. He had snarfed a chamomile tea bag that I was using to clean his eyes. He thought the tea bag was food, and letting go of my fingers meant letting go of the food which he was not about to do. I guess I could have smacked him upside the head to get him to let go, but I'd be typing this with 7 fingers instead of 10. So I offered him a cracker that I was able to reach with my other hand. The combination of me being calm and the offered food was enough to get him to let go.
Why reprimand him? I was the one who made a mistake, not the dog.
Not everything is a confrontation to be won by one side or the other. Much of life is compromise, cooperation and mutual trust. At least in my world...

Today that dog is as gentle and sweet and tolerant as any dog you can imagine. My children feed him his meals. He is perfectly safe.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> I believe, if a dog, my dogs, most dogs understand a punishment and it is short sharp immediate and connnected to what they did wrong...they accept it...and repeats are not necessary often if at all in some cases...i believe dogs have a natural sense of JUSTICE...they will accept VERBAL reprimands as communication to them and learn from it...and sometimes if a hit takes place to correct or stop them in flull flight they will understand the WHY for it and accept it and think again next time


I do think dogs accept punishment but I don't think they understand it the way you seem to think they do. I think you are ascribing a lot of human characteristics on to dogs.
Dogs will work to avoid punishment, and dogs are also, because of years of evolving alongside of man, very "punishable". They do tend to "take it" and grovel back in appeasement. But that's not because they understood the punishment, it's just how dogs are. 
But that's neither here nor there. Just because a dog will "take" a correction without aggressing doesn't make it okay. "Just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should.*"



FEJA JUODAS said:


> i cease. i have dared here; not being someone who beats their dogs meaning what some would like to see in me for even having said anything in favour of sometimes phyusical correction needed...i have dared say here what i think is common sense...not in highly complex difficult to understand without explanations theories no, the ordinary person does not want that as much as practical examples.


I'm sorry, I don't even know what this paragraph means...



FEJA JUODAS said:


> and i repeat...i was APALLED to read in modern books advice on CRATING REGULARLY DOGS as PUNISHEMENT ! isolating them REGULARLY as PUNISHMENT ! that is not HITTING a dog but in my view HORRIBLE and MORE UPSETTING that a smack now and then for taking food off the table that the dog can EASILY associate with an action disapproved of.


I don't know what books you're reading, but no one I respect as a trainer uses crating as a punishment tool. They use it as a management tool. I'm pretty sure most dogs would rather sit in a crate with a stuffed kong than get smacked for stealing food off the table. Of course you could also teach a leave it.... No need to punish for stealing food...



FEJA JUODAS said:


> my dogs HEAD HIT my NOSE ridge badly the other day...REALLY HURT me ! unintentionally i add !!! i lashed out and hit her side with my hand in a reflex reaction due to the extreme pain of the accident !!! did my dog SNARL at me ? no ! this is the difficult dog i add ! she froze...ears back...didnt move...not a sound...i was of course right next to her and my arms went around her saying ACCIDENT ! you hurt me ! and hugged her and in the pain my nose was still feeling my dog was licking my face gently wagging her tail...she understood..it was an accident !!! she didnt mean to bang my nose in her excitement near me ! but it happened and in my pain i smacked her and at once hugged her saying it was an accident so she understood


She was appeasing you. That's not understanding, that's appeasement.
Do you have children? One of my kids as a toddler jumped up as I was bending down and broke my nose. I did not react by smacking the kid upside the head. It's called self-control.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> NOT that i do that ! unless VERY irritated ! do people NEVER have irritable moments ?


Yes. Actually I'm having one right now. But as a grown adult I'm controlling myself


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Feja I think you will find it was me who said that 

So i think you owe Sarah1983 an apology.

ETA if you would like any part of that comment explained i'll be more than happy to do so


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> no one here to date has given any example of a dog that bit the owner following a physical say reprimand or a verbal reprimand..
> 
> is that surprising ? well i say maybe those owners are NOT ON THIS FORUM !
> 
> ...


Wow!!!!!!!!!!! why do you find it hard to believe that no one's dog has ever growled or bitten them?

I've never yelled or hit a dog because I've never had a reason too. I've been growled at by working dogs, but never my personal dog someone else's and that's my fault.

I personally feel if you've been bitten by your dog, yeah you've done something wrong, you've number one ignored all signs your dogs have given you, and they have been pushed to far.

I've had numerous rescue dogs through my house to, I've been growled at a few times, but never been bitten, because if a dog is growling it's uncomfortable about something and it's telling you it is, it's not defying you, it's trying to tell you to back off....

Do you know what if your dog ******** you for a physical reprimand then hell slap it up you, because force and violence with be met by the same from a dog.....


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> only now do you say your dog bit you when you hit him...without giving details ...of the circumstances and extent that you hit him of...only after i say after many posts here that no one has actually given an example of them hitting their dog and getting bitten for that or a verbal reprimand does anyone give an example...
> 
> and i say again that not having given such an example with details before i mentioned that lack of such posts here to date is evidence enough to me and most people generally if not those on this thread right now that you are not really answering the thread title therefore...you just want to finger point at me...not actually deal with the subject with YOUR PERSONAL EXAMPLES at all ! you want to look good only ! and dish out advice ! based on theories !
> 
> i am now not interested in hearing of your personal possibly even now MADE UP examples just to counter attack my correct assertion that no such examples were posted here to date on the thread theme !


Feja, this is a forum. Nobody "owes" anyone any information.

I think the bottom line for me is, if your dog is "challenging" you, there's an issue. Dogs don't really challenge humans. Rather, humans create conflicts that some dogs rise up to. Don't create the confrontation, you won't have the challenge.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> and another reason ? they are not on this forum !


That's what I like about this forum.  Enough like minded people here who prefer basing their training on reward. 

I know if I do ever have a problem with my girl, I'll get some good answers grounded in science and experience, to any query and very few, if any, advising me to take charge and show her who's boss. 

And, no, Elles has never growled at me and she's certainly never bitten me or anyone else and I've never hit or yelled at her.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Wow!!!!!!!!!!! why do you find it hard to believe that no one's dog has ever growled or bitten them?
> 
> I've never yelled or hit a dog because I've never had a reason too. I've been growled at by working dogs, but never my personal dog someone else's and that's my fault.
> 
> ...


I am having a bit of trouble understanding Feja's posts, but from what I can gather she does not believe that no one has been bitten by their dogs because they hit them. She thinks we are just not admitting it. That is the mindset of someone who does not want to see that they are in the wrong because nobody else has this problem.

Wow indeed!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Worked out the rep thing at last.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

I've had 3 collies. 
The 1st wasn't very good with other dogs but the only time he ever bit a person was when he was kicking off at another dog and my sister accidently stood on his paw as she removed him and he turned round and snapped. 
My last collie nipped and threatened my brother once - he hadn't lived at home for a few years and when he let himself in without any of the family members the dog knew being at home, the dog felt threatened and put him in one room until someone else got home and reassured the dog that everything was ok. He was a very nervous dog with many fears so we had to manage his life so he felt safe and he had no need to growl or bite.
I think my current collie growled at me a couple of times as a puppy when he went through a phase of mild resource guarding, it took him about 3 days to realise that people coming near him when he was eating meant he would get something nice added to his dinner and we had no intention of stealing it and he's never growled since. 
I honestly can't remember ever hitting one of my dogs, or telling them of and shouting. I prefer that my dogs want more than anything to please me (pleasing me is good because if I'm happy about something my dog does then nice things happen, a game, praise, a treat etc.). Occasionally Angus will decide to do what he wants rather than what I want but quietly talking to him then asking for a behaviour he likes offering gets him back on track much better than saying "no" would - he's an intelligent dog he likes to be right and show off how good he is, gently clearing my throat or looking at where he's meant to be/what he's meant to be doing is all the correction he needs, it lets him know that what he's doing now isn't the right thing but there's no big fuss or conflict needed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Most dogs will only lash out in fear, so the answer is to learn what scares them and avoid it.


...or learn what scares them, & change their response. :yesnod: That's what B-Mod does.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I am having a bit of trouble understanding Feja's posts, but from what I can gather she does not believe that no one has been bitten by their dogs because they hit them. She thinks we are just not admitting it. That is the mindset of someone who does not want to see that they are in the wrong because nobody else has this problem.
> 
> Wow indeed!


I think the question was doomed to begin with.


FEJA JUODAS said:


> *1. when, and how did dog challenges to you owner by growling or biting and how managed ?*
> 
> 2. did it work ? evidence of that ?
> 
> 3. is it sorted now ? or are you still working on it ? evidence of that ? methods changed ? [/B]


Basically you're stuck at #1 - when did the dog challenge the owner by growling or biting, and what did you do about it.

Well, if you don't see growling and biting as a challenge, you can't really answer.

And therein is the fundamental issue. How do you *see* behaviors?
When the puppy chewing on a good bone growls as you approach do you see defiance, or do you see a puppy who is communicating lack of trust around a valued resource?

When the juvenile chases after the prey despite being told not to, do you see deliberate disobedience, or do you see an impulsive youngster who is too aroused to respond?

When a dog growls after being hit, do you see a dog expressing confusion and asking for space, or do you see a dog rising to a physical challenge?

I don't truly know which one is "right", I just know that when I stopped looking for problems and challenges with my dogs, I stopped having them.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by* Elles*
> 
> _How did you do it? _





Lexiedhb said:


> By wagging my finger and saying no......................


:lol: Love it --- more, please?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ... from what I can gather, [Feja] does not believe that no-one's been bitten by their dogs because they hit them.
> She thinks we... just [don't admit] it.


 that's such a shame. I'm very sorry to hear it.

i was bitten by my 1st pet-therapy dog, & of course it was my fault - he was charging around after 
my fleet-footed Groenendahl, & barking in frustration, as Shady ran like a deer, & his short legs 
couldn't hope to catch her. I told him twice to hush, & each time he paused, but frustration got the better 
of him, & he began to bark again in 30-seconds. So on his next pass, i grabbed his flank - 
& he was hugely startled, turned & bit my hand, presuming it was the other dog.

i didn't blame him, it was clearly my fault - he was immediately appeasing, it was clear it wasn't 
intentional at all. It was my first bite in more than 25 years of handling & training dogs.

The 2nd bite [& so far, last...] came from a 12-WO insanely-driven GSD from Border-Patrol parents!
this crazy-hot dog was *shipped by air* as the 1st dog of a 20-something kid [who still lived with 
his mother, & worked part-time] - i took a dead pine-branch that he was *eating -* not merely 
chewing, but splitting into splinters & swallowing. The bugger bit me 4 times, each time with greater 
force - the bruises from bite #4 took almost 2-weeks to fade.  The small punctures from his 
milk-teeth healed faster than the doggone bruises.
Do i think that dog BELONGED in a pet-home? Not at all - the breeder IMO was totally irresponsible.

did i earn that bite? Hell, no - he could have duplicated the branch i took without even getting up,
they were all over the yard. He was intensely possessive & unbelievably mouthy, with no bite
inhibition whatever; the owner's mother had arms that looked like she'd been swimming in a moat 
filled with brambles, nothing but scratches, punctures & bruises, from black to purple, green & yellow.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Well I suppose if you take the 'challenge' part out, puppy Elles did growl at me as she tugged on my slippers and I attempted to walk, dragging her along.

But then if you wear mini sheep on your feet and stick them in front of a mini sheepdog what do you expect.  I'm afraid I thought it was hilarious, she earned the slippers and I got cold feet.

Luckily slippers come in twos, so it was quite handy to teach her the swap game. 'My' slipper was always more interesting than hers, whichever one it was. Eventually they fell apart and the uppers became good for tug games.

I took no notice at all of advice that said I was teaching her to chew on shoes, or letting her win and she loved those sheepskin slippers. 

Here is a little video (I expect I've posted it here before) of puppy Elles playing a tug game with a squeaky toy, shortly after we got her. She hadn't earned the slippers yet, but isn't she pleased with herself when she eventually got the toy and could take it off by herself under the table. You can just see the confident, self satisfied look on the back of her head. :001_wub:

[youtube_browser]OcoW-2aQyvw[/youtube_browser]


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> that's such a shame. I'm very sorry to hear it.
> 
> i was bitten by my 1st pet-therapy dog, & of course it was my fault - he was charging around after
> my fleet-footed Groenendahl, & barking in frustration, as Shady ran like a deer, & his short legs
> ...


Oh, but don't you see those dogs were challenging you, and you should have shown them who was pack leader!

Dogs always have a reason to react; we may not see that reason straight away, but it is there and we will never find out what it is by assuming it is a challenge.


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## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> keep it general not personal i suggest...i did not say I , i said humans meaning generally...
> 
> meaning ? something that a human has not trained properly...do not assume I have that problem ! if you dont have it also...you dont mention that you do so do not suggest i have...unless i tell you i have...by saying YOU when making a criticism you are making it direct and personal...best to DIFUSE possible CHALLENGE perceived by the receiver of the message i suggest !  ie follow the advice some are giving about ? POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT ! having i hope given you an explanation as to why !
> 
> ...


 1. I am in no way being negative. It is a statement that a challenge is not a challenge, it is training that hasn't been reinforced enough.

2. I have never had an issue like I described, it is an example of a simplistic command that doesn't work for some people because it is not trained enough.

I don't understand where you got that I think it's a failure? If you read my post, and I'm sure others will agree, it was a clear cut example of what people interpret as a challenge, when in fact it is not. Nothing was mentioned that I thought it was a failure? No idea where you pulled that from...

3. Both if my dogs are exceptionally well trained because I put the time in to train them and work with them. All of my training is positive reinforcement training.

My examples were proving you methods in redirecting unwanted negative behaviour, into another behaviour that was possitively trained, not needing to use things like waggling your finger in their faces in a patronising act.

4. Your thoughts are no way at all more positive than mine, again showing positive training can correct unwanted behaviour rather than negative reinforcement... Could you explain how that is negative? I am telling you a way to correct behaviour positively... Fact.

Please don't lecture me on how to train my dogs. As said above my dogs are exceptionally well trained and they do it with their tales wagging. Not because I expect them to do it, because they WANT to do it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

danielblackmore said:


> 1. I am in no way being negative. It is a statement that a challenge is not a challenge, it is training that hasn't been reinforced enough.
> 
> 2. I have never had an issue like I described, it is an example of a simplistic command that doesn't work for some people because it is not trained enough.
> 
> ...


Especially when she has only hit her three times in six months


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> I add...i warned the trainer..do NOT use a treat...do NOT distract her from what you are trying to teach her !
> 
> was i right ? after that i of course tried alone with feja...i used NO TREAT just did exactly the same as the trainer did gently pushing her bottom down and saying SIT ...and ? success ! did that a couple of times more...then the next day again a couple of times...and that was it.


Just to pick up on this, there's a few ways you could have gone with this.

1. Not use the treat and just push her into the sit.

2. Just use the treat and don't push her.

3. Don't use the treat, or push, just wait until she sits of her own accord, then give the cue and reward her, repeat when you see her sit.

You used number 1, I would have used number 2 and number 3.

Number 2 would be called luring. This video demonstrates how to use a treat to lure a dog into position, how to add a cue and how to fade out the lure.

[youtube_browser]cmhGsDl0OWI[/youtube_browser]

With the puppy who doesn't want to give up the ball in the video linked in the opening post. I personally wouldn't force the pup to give it up. I wouldn't put my hands in, or poke, prod, or pull at the pup, like the handler did.

In my little video, Elles could easily have growled at me and tried to warn me off her toy when she was under the table, but I thought that a looming person sticking their hand in her face was likely to worry her, so I wouldn't do it. I would either offer her a different toy, or a treat, or just leave her to it for the time being. New puppy, in new situation, taken away from everything she knows, I wouldn't expect her to know anything, other than what she'd learned naturally from her mum and siblings. I wouldn't even expect her to remember and apply anything she might have learned from her breeder.

I later learned that my instincts were right and also that behaviours need reinforcing in different situations and environments. It's called 'proofing'.  I didn't know all of this when I first got my pup, but because I didn't want to correct her, or admonish her, I wanted to train her, it's what I found when looking for tips.

It's a different approach to the one you (Feja) has and a different mindset right from the start. 

I hope the video I've linked gives you some idea of what I would be looking for when looking for answers. I wouldn't be looking for answers that involve 'correcting' my dog, or asserting my authority, whatever I might think she's done wrong.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

not having read as i stated any further comments since i left this thead...i was wondering how one closes a thread ? can one shut a thread one starts or not ? asking myself obviously not knowing where to look for that info...

i started this thread, it wandered off to discussions that were not to my mind answering the question so i lost interest...now if it just gets taken over carried on by those now in it all well and good...just wish they had started their OWN thread to deal with the subject instead of leaping into mine !!!

oh well. not that bothered to go search how to SHUT a threat one starts...if people are as i saw without reading anything carrying on here then hope they get some benefit from their discussions hey !

ps, NB even...please dont anyone WASTE THEIR ENERGY replying here to my post ...i will not be reading any replies ! so adding that to save your time and effort.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> not having read as i stated any further comments since i left this thead...i was wondering how one closes a thread ? can one shut a thread one starts or not ? asking myself obviously not knowing where to look for that info...
> 
> i started this thread, it wandered off to discussions that were not to my mind answering the question so i lost interest...now if it just gets taken over carried on by those now in it all well and good...just wish they had started their OWN thread to deal with the subject instead of leaping into mine !!!
> 
> ...


No, you cannot close a thread even if you have started it. You can ask a moderator and they may decide to oblige you by closing it for you.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> not having read as i stated any further comments since i left this thead...i was wondering how one closes a thread ? can one shut a thread one starts or not ? asking myself obviously not knowing where to look for that info...
> 
> i started this thread, it wandered off to discussions that were not to my mind answering the question so i lost interest...now if it just gets taken over carried on by those now in it all well and good...just wish they had started their OWN thread to deal with the subject instead of leaping into mine !!!
> 
> ...


Wow, how ever do you learn new things 
So basically because people don't agree with how you see things then they are wrong....That's quite sad IMO


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Anyone roses dog growl at them in play??? Mine is a hobby breed and will take any opportunity to communicate with me verbally!! Is it a challenge? Nah


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> ...there's a few ways you could [teach sit].
> 
> 1: [No] treat... just push her into the sit.
> 
> ...


#3 is *Capture*: the dog offers the behavior, we instantly reward it.

BTW, the word or hand-signal or ____ is a *label* at the beginning; we just stick it on the behavior, over & 
over & over, to associate it; the dog won't recognize it as a CUE until it's well-connected.
Verbal labels are hardest; hand-cues, posture, or environmental cues are all faster to learn, as dogs 
aren't verbal but are very aware of body-language, movement, & the environs.

Some behaviors are impossible to lure, difficult to shape, but easy to capture - like "sneeze".

Others can be *Shaped*: get the very first hint toward the goal behavior, lure or shape it, keep moving 
toward that goal behavior in small steps. Free-shaping is a challenge for the trainer, & the hardest part 
is snipping behavior into small, successful steps, so the dog continues to get closer to that goal behavior.

Lure [for position], Capture [for spontaneous behaviors], & Shape [for complex behaviors] 
are the 3 primary techniques. Sit, Down, & Stand are all easily lured in place. Spin is easy to shape; 
"speak" is easy to capture.

LURE sit / down:
Dog Training- Fast sit to down using luring - YouTube

SHAPE a spin:
Shape Spin 1 - YouTube

CAPTURE a sneeze:
Dog Training - Capturing a Behavior - Sneezing - YouTube

Pushing or manipulating the dog is not a good idea; dogs don't give to pressure, they aren't herd 
animals like horses or cattle, they push back - this is NOT a conscious decision, it's automatic. 
The reflex response of pushing [or pulling] against pressure is why there are certain things that are 
a common complaint, i-e, Pull on leash: we pull?... they pull *back*. When U push down on 
a dog's butt, they resist - wouldn't U?... & that's only a distraction which confuses the dog.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Ok swap roses for elses and hobby for gobby in my previous post lol!!! Stupid phone!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ok swap roses for elses and hobby for gobby in my previous post lol!!! Stupid phone!


I did wonder, but was too polite to ask


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> ...swap roses for *else's* & hobby for *hobby* in my previous post... Stupid phone!


is "hobby" meant to be Happy? just guessing - do i win? 

so it could be...


> Originally Posted by *Lexiedhb*
> _
> 
> Anyone else's dog growl at them, in play? Mine is a happy breed... _


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> is "hobby" meant to be Happy? just guessing - do i win?
> 
> so it could be...


Actually Gobby is a quaint old English word meaning that he has a big mouth and makes a lot of noise


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...Gobby is a quaint old English word meaning... a big mouth & makes a lot of noise


yup- 
i saw the 2nd correction, darn!  In the first one, 'hobby' stayed the same - poop, 
so near & yet so far. 

I'm familiar with 'gobby' from period novels - Love it! - as in, 'Shut yer gob!', eh?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> yup-
> i saw the 2nd correction, darn!  In the first one, 'hobby' stayed the same - poop,
> so near & yet so far.
> 
> I'm familiar with 'gobby' from period novels - Love it! - as in, 'Shut yer gob!', eh?


Now you're catching on!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lol! Predictive text at it's best! He's staff x - he chats, he barks, he growls when he's trying to tell me something. I can tell a "there's a frigging cat in the front garden" growl from a "play with me growl". We just had a VERY growly game of tug- if I said leave it- he dropped the rope- they are dogs - growling/ barking is all they have!
He is also happy  as well as gobby!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> dogs don't give to pressure, they aren't herd
> animals like horses or cattle, they push back


Erm, no experience with cattle, other than riding a bullock in my youth (someone else had trained it), but horses are well known as 'into pressure' animals. They have to be taught to yield to pressure and that's a whole 'nuther ball game involving whether they should be taught to yield to pressure, if so how and whether positive punishment/negative reinforcement normally used to train horses is actually the most effective and appropriate way to do so. 

Wonder where I've read those sort of threads lol.

It's probably not good to get too hung up on natural horse behaviour as observed in feral or captive herds, or the 'training' advice that has come from it imho.

Substitute pack for herd and dog for horse and I think you'll know what I mean and why.

Horses are domineering beasts that need to be taught their place and prevented from taking over the world too you know. :devil:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Elles said:


> Erm, no experience with cattle, other than riding a bullock in my youth (someone else had trained it), but horses are well known as 'into pressure' animals. They have to be taught to yield to pressure and that's a whole 'nuther ball game involving whether they should be taught to yield to pressure, if so how and whether positive punishment/negative reinforcement normally used to train horses is actually the most effective and appropriate way to do so.
> 
> Wonder where I've read those sort of threads lol.
> 
> ...


entirely! My old TB, spent his life plotting to take over the human race!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> ...horses are well known as 'into pressure' animals.
> 
> They have to be taught to yield to pressure...


i'm not speaking of the pressure of a bit, rein, or hackamore - but my hand?

 i grew up with horses, ponies, sheep, & cattle.
IME, if U push on their near side, they shift over. Dogs lean into it; horses move.

when i try to enter a tied-stall, i need to shift their butt to have room - i push on the near hip, 
gently, or just lay my hand there... & the horse ===> moves to let me in.

Doesn't anyone else's livestock move over on request? - Our sheep were not pets, but they were 
predictable; so were the heifers we raised for beef. I'm totally confused, now.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm not speaking of the pressure of a bit, rein, or hackamore - but my hand?
> 
> i grew up with horses, ponies, sheep, & cattle.
> IME, if U push on their near side, they shift over. Dogs lean into it; horses move.
> ...


Domestic horses and sheep and goats learn very quickly to move away from pressure, but it's not "natural" to them. Oppositional reflex applies to the hoofed ones too  Push they'll push back, pull, they'll pull against you. 
Domestic horses will quickly revert to oppositional reflex too when panicked. How often do you see a tied up horse spook and pull back until the ties break? Often they quit panicking as soon as the pressure stops. So you have this horse freaking out yanking his head against the halter, only to stand there looking befuddled as soon as the rope breaks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

also IME, herd species try really HARD not to step on each other; that's why a horse who stomps or rears 
to strike, is a very aggro specimen, not the 'norm'. Even if U fall in a pasture, most horses or cattle will try 
desperately not to tread on U - obviously, a bull who's angry at the intrusion will KNOCK U down, AND tread 
on U, but that's not the typical cow or even steer.

i've laid down in pastures, & have yet to be trodden on. [So far.  ]







it's the bumping into & against one another that makes herd animals a bit more conscious of their own 
intrusiveness or physical contact, IIRC from Temple Grandin's writing?...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Domestic horses and sheep and goats learn very quickly to move away from pressure, but it's not "natural"
> to them. Oppositional reflex applies to the hoofed ones too  Push they'll push back, pull, they'll pull against you.


if i PULLED on them, yes - they pulled back, especially if frightened or at all anxious - such as when 
trying to load a trailer, entering a dark shed or barn, & so on.

but when i leaned or pushed gently but firmly -- they simply moved. Maybe i was just lucky, i dunno. 
i know darn well i didn't 'teach' it, i was only 9-YO when i got my 1st pony.
Of course, Cotton was an absolute beast, & would quite deliberately eye Ur foot to put his forehoof 
on it, when U tried to bridle him, :lol: - but he WOULD move over in the tied-stall to let me get to 
the grain-crib & feed him.


ouesi said:


> Domestic horses will quickly revert to oppositional reflex too when panicked.
> 
> How often do you see a tied-horse spook, & pull back until the ties break? Often they quit panicking
> as soon as the pressure stops. ...[a] horse [is] freaking-out, yanking his head against the halter,
> only to stand there looking befuddled, as soon as the rope breaks.


yes, i've seen it - i've also used it to help calm them, releasing pressure till they can get their heads 
down & breathe a bit; teaching the horse to lower their head on cue can be a huge advantage.

of course, U teach it when they're *not* scared - so U have it when they are. 

maybe we just had weird animals.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What Ouesi said. They have to learn it. 

I can cite another example. If a horse stands on someone's foot (their fault for putting their foot under the horse's) the person trying to push them off may well find that the horse pushes back, especially if an in pain, broken footed human is yelling and shoving as hard as they can. 

People will often try to pull a 'stubborn' horse along by his head too. That can escalate to the horse rearing and even going over backwards as he pushes up into the pressure on his head.

A relatively common mistake is when a horse pushes back on someone trying to move them over and the person ends up squashed against the wall. Or when a human tries to use force and pressure to get a horse to pick up his foot, if untrained, he's more likely to put more of his weight onto that foot and lean into it.

Horses are into pressure animals, ever tried to get a horse to sit? I doubt very much you'd have any success by pushing on his backside, although luring might be a problem too. 

Of course horses try hard not to step on you. Their feet are very important to them, they rely on them to escape danger. They need to be aware of where their feet are. That doesn't mean they don't step on people though, whether by intent, carelessness, lack of respect, or accident, would be up to the individual to decide for themselves. 

In a herd situation, if one horse decides not to move and the other horse decides he wants him to, the latter horse may threaten, bite, kick, reverse into, all kinds of things. That's a separate issue as to whether an untrained horse will lean if a human pushes on them. A nervous unhandled horse may try to avoid the touch and may try to defend himself, just like a dog might, but that doesn't mean they naturally yield to pressure, it just means avoidance. 

Most horses learn very quickly to move over. Usually by the handler bringing their head towards them, whilst pushing on their side, hip, or butt. However, if you're a clicker trainer, you would probably want to use a target as a lure instead, as it's moving the head, that would be the part that the horse is responding to, not the push on his side initially. 

Teaching with a target lure, would then enable you to teach the horse to move his backside towards you, as well as away and as easily, which is very useful when you want him to line up to a gate for you to get on. :yesnod:

Oh and of course, you'd first have to teach the young horse to bring his head to you by yielding to pressure if you're doing it the 'normal' way. Some of the much respected cowboys call it 'Following a feel.'


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Whoops, sorry. Pet subject lol. Horses generally I think suffer more than dogs from outdated training and theories, I saw the light, so I can get a bit carried away. 

I'll let the mods decide whether to leave my soapbox rant up on the doggie side of the forum and shut my gob.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> also IME, herd species try really HARD not to step on each other; that's why a horse who stomps or rears
> to strike, is a very aggro specimen, not the 'norm'. Even if U fall in a pasture, most horses or cattle will try
> desperately not to tread on U - obviously, a bull who's angry at the intrusion will KNOCK U down, AND tread
> on U, but that's not the typical cow or even steer.
> ...


I do agree but have you seen cinnamon toasts (user on here) injury?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> Horses are into pressure animals, ever tried to get a horse to sit? I doubt very much you'd have
> any success by pushing on his backside, although luring might be a problem too.


horses aren't really built to sit on their butts readily, they can do it, but it's not comfy for long. 
 & of course, i'd never PUSH their rears down to teach it - i've seen it taught as an 'interruption' 
in lying-down or getting-up, the horse is rewarded & shaped to 'sit' with the forequarters propped.

i can only say that our sheep were hardly saddle-broke or halter-broke, but like our calves, 
they moved over if U laid a flat hand on & pushed gently.  What can i say? Weird animals.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> I'll let the mods decide whether to leave my soapbox rant up on the doggie side of the forum & shut my gob.


hey!  i thought it was very informative - There are parallels, ya know.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> I do agree but have you seen cinnamon toast's [PF-uk nik] injury?


sorry to hear that;  no, i haven't - 
i've seen her horse in lots of pix. Got a link?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Ah, but I said I have little experience with cattle, same goes for sheep tbh. I don't think they're handled as much as horses usually, so maybe it's a fear response, they want to move away from you? Maybe if they're hand reared and not pushed over until they're older, they too would lean into people. Dunno.

I was talking horses. 

Of course, some people say their dogs are different too.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> they moved over if U laid a flat hand on & pushed gently


As you mentioned parallels.  If you put the flat of your hand on a dog's backside and push gently, you can have success teaching him to sit, especially if you move his head up at the same time, perhaps using a headcollar or just a collar and leash. However, you (as in you personally) wouldn't train the dog that way, because there are more effective ways of teaching him to sit.

I daresay and I could be wrong, that if you got yourself a horse these days, you'd be looking at those more effective ways of training and wouldn't be pushing on horses either.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> I daresay and I could be wrong, that if you got yourself a horse these days, you'd be looking at those
> more effective ways of training, & wouldn't be pushing on horses either.


i have clicker-trained horses, too - but i still tend to move them sideways by pushing gently. 
it's not for anything but making space or shifting slightly, in a stall, cross-tied, etc.

Probly just a bad habit - like dogs, we default to the things we learn 1st.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Naturally, just as with a dog, you can teach your horse to respond to a touch cue if you want to. I touch my horses too and as many of my ridden cues are a touch, I do want them to respond to touch. Pressure no, touch yes.

Pressure as a teaching tool, normally means escalating pressure. If someone thinks that horses naturally move away from pressure, it's easy for them to think that if a horse doesn't move, they just need more pressure, after all that's what other horses do to each other, right? Easy trap to fall into, the Parellis have made a fortune from the technique. I'm sure you've met plenty of folk who think they just need to press harder if their dog doesn't sit when they push on his bum. 

If I want my horses to move their quarters away from me in the stable, I just say 'over', then 'good' when they've moved as far as I want, same in the field. 

A pressure person would probably keep pushing, or keep the touch on until the horse was out of the way which would be a less accurate way I think and if I want to pass my horse in the field, it's more useful to be able to say 'over' or 'back' from a distance as I approach with my hands and arms full of stuff, which is normally what happens, so I keep the same cues in the stable, or yard. 

If you're helping other folk with clicker training their horses, it's probably best to avoid pressure if you can, as it is very easy for people to interpret it as 'if some is good, more is better', even with something as innocent as asking a horse to move out of your space when he's tied up. 

I have plenty of bad habits from the old days too.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> Pressure as a teaching tool, normally means escalating pressure. If someone thinks that horses naturally
> move away from pressure, *it's easy for them to think that if a horse doesn't move, they just need more
> pressure*; after all, that's what other horses do to each other, right?
> Easy trap to fall into, the Parellis have made a fortune from the technique. I'm sure you've met plenty
> ...


hadn't thought of the human tendency to TEST TO FAILURE -  Yer right - the 'more is better' school of thought
is downright dangerous, had a client who used flea-soap, bombed the house, AND gave an oral to the cat - 
killed the cat, killed the fishtank, sickened the whole family including both [luckily large] dogs, 
& hospitalized her younger son.  Expensive lesson. :nonod:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> sorry to hear that;  no, i haven't -
> i've seen her horse in lots of pix. Got a link?


on my phone so no! otherwise would link her posts. The woman is amazing- half her thigh removed by a domesticated horse- but she's on the mend!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> ...The woman is amazing - half her thigh removed by a domesticated horse - but she's on the mend!!!


I found it, took the 1st half of forever, bloody search function sucks goat-urine, 
but here's the link -

_Warning Warning Warning - 
Graphic, gruesome, large debrided open wound - NOT for children nor queasy persons!_
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1062780983-post16.html

not to quibble, but i think her thigh is to the right, & calf is to the left?... Could be wrong.
Yes, it's godawful, & i think the shoe-edge sliced her. :nonod: Poor CT! Hope she's up & about ASAP, 
with no long-term damage.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I didn't look at the link. Not because I'm squeamish, but selfishly because I don't want the image in my head next time I get on my horse. 

It sounds terrible and I too hope she makes a full and speedy recovery.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> ...selfishly ... I don't want the image in my head next time I get on my horse.


never fear, i think that's a perfectly valid reason; dwelling on a dreadful bite-wound before i go 
to work with a phobic or aggro dog wouldn't be intelligent, either.  Accidents happen, the mare 
was threatening another horse, & unfortunately she knocked down the human in the middle.

if it had been another horse she hit, there'd have been bruises or a cut, but not this nasty deep slice - 
horses don't have a whole lotta fleshy muscle below the body-level, it's skin, bone, & tendon.


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