# Hunt supporters...



## Guest

Hunt supporters out for traditional Christmas meetings... as David Cameron drops plan to repeal ban | Mail Online

These people make me sick. 

Let's hope that DC drops the plans to repeal the ban indefinitely.


----------



## piggybaker

I love the pictures, especially the one of the dogs by the wall...


----------



## Guest

piggybaker said:


> I love the pictures, especially the one of the dogs by the wall...


The dogs are nice and the pictures have been well-shot, but some of the people disturb me slightly...

Don't get me wrong, I support hunting using more humane methods (e.g. a gun), but chasing a fox across open fields before letting a pack of dogs rip it to shreds isn't my idea of sport.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

piggybaker said:


> I love the pictures, especially the one of the dogs by the wall...


Me too, the one of Peter Swann with one of his hounds is beautiful, what a bond!


----------



## Guest

And for the record: If anyone on here supports fox hunting, then yes, I respect their opinion.


----------



## piggybaker

Chillinator said:


> The dogs are nice and the pictures have been well-shot, but some of the people concern me...


It is so difficult it is their way of life,, It is hard to explain without being slammed for the wrong expression, they see no wrong in what they do, as far as theya re concerned they are doing a job that they see as pest control and keeping the countryside running,, now we can all go into the debate of but its not a hunt its a sport blah blah balh.

I don't even know what to compare it to in a way of life,, it is just an upper class thing.


----------



## Guest

Chillinator said:


> The dogs are nice and the pictures have been well-shot, but some of the people disturb me slightly...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I support hunting using more humane methods (e.g. a gun), but chasing a fox across open fields before letting a pack of dogs rip it to shreds isn't my idea of sport.


They aren't allowed to do that now so these pictures are of people probably holding a drag hunt.
Have you got anything against that?


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> They aren't allowed to do that now so these pictures are of people probably holding a drag hunt.
> Have you got anything against that?


I have nothing against them, the thing that disturbs me is not what these people are doing in the photos, but the thought that they sure as hell want the hunting ban to be repealed.

As I said I agree with hunting, but only if the game is equal. I'm a fly angler, I catch and release about 99.9% of my quarry, and my quarry have an even chance.

I'm not digging for an argument folks and I'm not a tree-hugger, I'm just expressing my opinion.


----------



## JJAK

piggybaker said:


> I don't even know what to compare it to in a way of life,, it is just an upper class thing.


Its far from an upper class thing! 
Im not trying to cause an arguement, winds me up when people always bring it down to class!


----------



## Guest

Basically, if we could all just put our opinions on the table, discuss it nicely and leave it that, then that would be perfect.

It would certainly be nice to see a debate thread without a closed sign next to it.


----------



## Guest

Chillinator said:


> Basically, if we could all just put our opinions on the table, discuss it nicely and leave it that, then that would be perfect.
> 
> It would certainly be nice to see a debate thread without a closed sign next to it.


I can't do that tonight, so shall leave you to it


----------



## SEVEN_PETS

I have no problem with people drag hunting. I can see why they find galloping across the countryside thrilling and exciting. What I don't like is them chasing a fox. Most of the public don't want it repealed and looking at the government, it's highly unlikely it'll be repealed anyway.

The hounds are gorgeous, as are the horses. It's good that they thought about their horses' welfare before themselves, they called the hunts off because of the high risk of injury to the horses.


----------



## shibby

Well, I completely disagree with it. And all I will say is, typical of the Daily Mail  I wouldn't wipe my bottom with that newspaper.


----------



## JJAK

Chillinator said:


> Basically, if we could all just put our opinions on the table, discuss it nicely and leave it that, then that would be perfect.
> 
> It would certainly be nice to see a debate thread without a closed sign next to it.


Agreed 

Im Pro hunting, im fully aware that alot of people thing its inhumaine and wrong etc i think alot of it depends on how your brought up, i was brought up in 'the hunting' way of life, was never told it was wrong whilst growing up and was always encouraged to take part.

I full respect other peoples opinions on the 'sport' im not one of these "you dont like it so ima beat you" type people!


----------



## piggybaker

JJAK said:


> Its far from an upper class thing!
> Im not trying to cause an arguement, winds me up when people always bring it down to class!


Do you not honestly think it is,,, They always talk like they have a silver spoon in their mouths,, it appears only the dog handlers and the grooms are the real people there doing a job and being paid..

I mean no offense and I am aware how delicate the debate will become as it is a very much two edged sword,, but you would never find a peasent hunting a fox,, not good eating as far as I know.


----------



## piggybaker

rona said:


> I can't do that tonight, so shall leave you to it


it would help you know,, :lol:


----------



## bullet

Chillinator said:


> Basically, if we could all just put our opinions on the table, discuss it nicely and leave it that, then that would be perfect.
> 
> It would certainly be nice to see a debate thread without a closed sign next to it.


I dont think that will ever happen mate, Everyone has different upbringings, life experiences, places where they live, theres too many varients in it for everyone to agree or disagree


----------



## Staysee

Chillinator said:


> And for the record: If anyone on here supports fox hunting, then yes, I respect their opinion.


Unfortunatly i do not respect thier opinion.

A certain amount of so called "hunting" goes on that is so far from hunting and "keeping numbers down" that it just made me cry thinking about it.

Unfortunatly i live in a village where hunting is popular and i've had mini arguements with people i work with over it

There are other ways of keeping the population down other then brutually hunting the foxes


----------



## JJAK

piggybaker said:


> Do you not honestly think it is,,, They always talk like they have a silver spoon in their mouths,, it appears only the dog handlers and the grooms are the real people there doing a job and being paid..
> 
> I mean no offense and I am aware how delicate the debate will become as it is a very much two edged sword,, but you would never find a peasent hunting a fox,, not good eating as far as I know.


90% of us are common as muck! 
Its not 'glarse' 'grarse' and 'barth' - said is stupid posh accent
its 'glass' 'grass' and 'bath' - said whilst stinking of horse s*it and eating a mars bar


----------



## piggybaker

JJAK said:


> 90% of us are common as muck!
> Its not 'glarse' 'grarse' and 'barth' - said is stupid posh accent
> its 'glass' 'grass' and 'bath' - said whilst stinking of horse s*it and eating a mars bar


I am glad you took the mick I was a bit worried I had gone to far,,

hard point to debate on though wouldn't you say..thanless you live in the country and see the damage foxes can and will do to live stock then no one would know, or if you have been brought up with it like on a farm its just a way of life..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I used to get wound up with these debates, not many who actually post an opinion about hunting/shooting, actually understand what goes on behind the scenes, they read a lot about it, research it perhaps, and have a very strong opinion on it, which they are, of course, entitled to. 

We are willing to condemn thousands of animals to appalling living conditions and a terrible death, to stick food on our plates, and yet a few people running around the countryside on horse back to hunt foxes attracts far more criticism. Foxes are not endangered, I've got far more of an issue with puppy farmers, who contribute towards far more unwanted death and misery, than I have with anyone who enjoys fox hunting. I've posted before that I've really not got a view on fox hunting in general, there are times when it benefits foxes, after all, what's the point in hunting something that isn't there, a healthy population of foxes is in the interest of the huntsmen. Some see that as perverse, and I can quite understand why, but then, there are much more things in life to worry about, not callous, but really, just realistic.


----------



## Guest

bullet said:


> I dont think that will ever happen mate, Everyone has different upbringings, life experiences, places where they live, theres too many varients in it for everyone to agree or disagree


Well everyone can start being damn well nice about how they voice their opinions and debate that mature human beings. Otherwise, I'll put weevil juice in everyones' dinner! :devil:


----------



## JJAK

piggybaker said:


> I am glad you took the mick I was a bit worried I had gone to far,,
> 
> hard point to debate on though wouldn't you say..thanless you live in the country and see the damage foxes can and will do to live stock then no one would know, or if you have been brought up with it like on a farm its just a way of life..


I think its just one of those things, everyone has an opinion on it, theres no right or wrong opinion and everyones entitled to it. 
If you get wrapped up in the whole debate and really really try to stress your point then i think you just end up becoming one of the 'toffs' which alot of people have things against!


----------



## Terr

Why are they holding whips?


----------



## Guest

Terr said:


> Why are they holding whips?


Presumably to make the horses go go-go? Seriously, I've only been on the back of a horse once for about five minutes, so I haven't a clue... :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

They'll be the whippers in


----------



## piggybaker

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They'll be the whippers in


Is it to keep the dogs in a pack.


----------



## JJAK

The whips are multi purpose, one end has a hook shape on to help open/close gates

And the other end helps to keep the hounds under control (their not hit with it!) can also be used as a lead rope sort of thing if youve gotta hold another horse.


----------



## Amy-manycats

The whips are just as often used to control the dogs. No not by actually whipping them but pointing and "flashing" to deter the hounds, also as chastisement but I have never seen a hound struck.

Just to add it is NOT a class thing. 

I grew up on a not very nice council estate, we followed the hunt in a white transit and I watched my 7 month pregnant mother get beaten about the head whilst trapped in a kissing gate by sabateurs 

In later life I had a horse and have followed and ridden with the hunt. 

However I am not sure where I stand on the issue at the moment but I recognise they do have jobs to do, i'm not convinced whether there are better ways or not to fulfil their roles.

BUT I do know that there are a lot of ill informed people who do not know the full picture who spout only about the "inhumane" side of it and nothing more. I do think some of it is sour grapes, if you call it a class thing perhaps you should try going to a meet and and meeting some of the "toffs".


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

JJAK said:


> The whips are multi purpose, one end has a hook shape on to help open/close gates
> 
> And the other end helps to keep the hounds under control (their not hit with it!) can also be used as a lead rope sort of thing if youve gotta hold another horse.


Exacterly, and proves my point earlier about people reading about, but not necessarily understanding everything to do with hunting and shooting. It's easy to judge without knowing everything behind it, I'd urge anyone who feels strongly about it, to really learn more about it, before they judge.

Just after I'd posted, it crossed my mind that here at the livery, a whip is used when the horses are exercised in the menage, they are lunged using a whip, never hit, but in the hands of an experienced person, it moves the horse in the right way.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amy-manycats said:


> The whips are just as often used to control the dogs. No not by actually whipping them but pointing and "flashing" to deter the hounds, also as chastisement but I have never seen a hound struck.
> 
> Just to add it is NOT a class thing.
> 
> I grew up on a not very nice council estate, we followed the hunt in a white transit and I watched my 7 month pregnant mother get beaten about the head whilst trapped in a kissing gate by sabateurs
> 
> In later life I had a horse and have followed and ridden with the hunt.
> 
> However I am not sure where I stand on the issue at the moment but I recognise they do have jobs to do, i'm not convinced whether there are better ways or not to fulfil their roles.
> 
> BUT I do know that there are a lot of ill informed people who do not know the full picture who spout only about the "inhumane" side of it and nothing more. I do think some of it is sour grape, if you call it a class thing perhaps you shoudl try going to a meet and and meeting soem of the "toffs".


Sorry to hear about your mum, but just to say, great post. The vast majority of people I know involved with hunting and/or shooting are not upper class. Talk about Grouse shooting, and you're maybe onto the upper echelons, but then you still have people involved with beating and picking up that are not in any terms considered upper class. I see a lot of youngsters involved with working dogs recently, and it's great, much better than hanging around the local Offie, or mugging pensioners, which is what they seem to be accused of most nowadays.


----------



## JJAK

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Exacterly, and proves my point earlier about people reading about, but not necessarily understanding everything to do with hunting and shooting. It's easy to judge without knowing everything behind it, I'd urge anyone who feels strongly about it, to really learn more about it, before they judge.
> 
> Just after I'd posted, it crossed my mind that here at the livery, a whip is used when the horses are exercised in the menage, they are lunged using a whip, never hit, but in the hands of an experienced person, it moves the horse in the right way.


So true! 
Its when things are put in the hands of the inexperienced they can go severely t*ts up! 
I think as shibby said "daily mail" - hunting (and alot of things to do with horses...unless your involved with them!) is like alot of things put in the news paper, your very quick to hear the bad things, but it can take months and even years to hear the good!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Slightly OT, but here where I live the livery manageress that I speak to daily, she has had a couple of horses with severe injuries, one a broken leg, the other (her own) with an operation to basically disintegrate a vertebrae in his spine, and she's worked them back to full health pretty much using lunging, and slowly but surely introduced the saddle back. Seeing her with a full length whip in the menage, cruelty has never sprung to mind, she absolutely loves all the horses in her charge, and yet I'm sure if I took the 'right' photo, and posted it, I'd attract all sorts of comments about cruelty, without bugga all evidence.


----------



## piggybaker

Amy-manycats said:


> The whips are just as often used to control the dogs. No not by actually whipping them but pointing and "flashing" to deter the hounds, also as chastisement but I have never seen a hound struck.
> 
> Just to add it is NOT a class thing.
> 
> I grew up on a not very nice council estate, we followed the hunt in a white transit and I watched my 7 month pregnant mother get beaten about the head whilst trapped in a kissing gate by sabateurs
> 
> In later life I had a horse and have followed and ridden with the hunt.
> 
> However I am not sure where I stand on the issue at the moment but I recognise they do have jobs to do, i'm not convinced whether there are better ways or not to fulfil their roles.
> 
> BUT I do know that there are a lot of ill informed people who do not know the full picture who spout only about the "inhumane" side of it and nothing more. I do think some of it is sour grape, if you call it a class thing perhaps you shoudl try going to a meet and and meeting soem of the "toffs".


Please please I was being naughty and was on a wind up,, I am not back tracking,, my niece goes on the hunt and does something called cubbing as well (although I am still very unclear of what that is, but has something to do with foxes).. I would love to do a hunt but due to health I never got the chance to be that daring and ride that fast.

I have no issues with the hunt as it is really something that does not effect me, I love the pics that where posted and think they look splendid. I neither for not against, I have friends who are farmers who stock has been damaged by foxes.. as I quoted before this is a two edged sword that cuts and hurt whatever way it is swung.


----------



## JJAK

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Slightly OT, but here where I live the livery manageress that I speak to daily, she has had a couple of horses with severe injuries, one a broken leg, the other (her own) with an operation to basically disintegrate a vertebrae in his spine, and she's worked them back to full health pretty much using lunging, and slowly but surely introduced the saddle back. Seeing her with a full length whip in the menage, cruelty has never sprung to mind, she absolutely loves all the horses in her charge, and yet I'm sure if I took the 'right' photo, and posted it, I'd attract all sorts of comments about cruelty, without bugga all evidence.


I think it all comes back down to upbringing! 
Youd be bound to get comments off people who have NOTHING to do with horses. 
I think, as youve previously said, before jumping on the band wagon people should do alot more research into what goes on.

Amy, FANTASTIC post. 
Sorry to hear about your mum. 
But i know exacally where your coming from...except we didnt have a white transit van, we had a rubbishy nissan thingy whose exhaust was held on with rope


----------



## Amy-manycats

Cubbing is the pre season hunt where they are after cubs. OK that sound barbaric, to the naked eye the foxes are fully grown by then and are out on their own looking for or having set up new teritory. It is often these that cause great problems and or end up run over anyway as they are looking for their own patch.


----------



## JJAK

piggybaker said:


> Please please I was being naughty and was on a wind up,, I am not back tracking,, my niece goes on the hunt and does something called cubbing as well (although I am still very unclear of what that is, but has something to do with foxes).. I would love to do a hunt but due to health I never got the chance to be that daring and ride that fast.
> 
> I have no issues with the hunt as it is really something that does not effect me, I love the pics that where posted and think they look splendid. I neither for not against, I have friends who are farmers who stock has been damaged by foxes.. as I quoted before this is a two edged sword that cuts and hurt whatever way it is swung.


You cant call it 'cubbing' anymore!! 
Its meant to be called 'autumn hunting'

Cub Hunting

The link above is not for you saboteurs  
It was one of the few links i could find which explained it!


----------



## Amy-manycats

Oh and don't worry MUM and the baby (my little bro) were fine just shook up!


----------



## piggybaker

Amy-manycats said:


> Cubbing is the pre season hunt where they are after cubs. OK that sound barbaric, to the naked eye the foxes are fully grown by then and are out on their own looking for or having set up new teritory. It is often these that cause great problems and or end up run over anyway as they are looking for their own patch.


My neice just loves all this stuff, its just her thing,, somepeople just live it you know,, once again I am sorry if I caused offense..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I know a few game keepers who admire vixens with cubs on the land they look after when they see them, and hope they won't cause them problems in the future; if and when they do, then they run the gauntlet of possibly being hunted. Foxes are not daft, and soon learn. I don't know one game keeper, or person involved with hunting/shooting that wants to see foxes extinct, numbers controlled yes, but never extinct. Foxes are too great a part of the English countryside.


----------



## Amy-manycats

I'm not really offended I just feel I am banging my head against a brick wall sometimes as many people just see things in black and white and I get sooo frustrated about it.


----------



## newfiesmum

Chillinator said:


> I have nothing against them, the thing that disturbs me is not what these people are doing in the photos, but the thought that they sure as hell want the hunting ban to be repealed.
> 
> As I said I agree with hunting, but only if the game is equal. I'm a fly angler, I catch and release about 99.9% of my quarry, and my quarry have an even chance.
> 
> I'm not digging for an argument folks and I'm not a tree-hugger, I'm just expressing my opinion.


Hunting, i.e. killing things is not my idea of sport, no matter how it is done. How can anyone get any enjoyment out of seeing something die?



JJAK said:


> Its far from an upper class thing!
> Im not trying to cause an arguement, winds me up when people always bring it down to class!


Actually, there was a documentary on tv when the ban first came into force, and they had an interview with one of the very well spoken huntmasters. It was his opinion that the hunt ban was caused solely through class envy. Talk about having your head in the sand! If he wants to ponce about on a £50,000 horse in his bright red jackets and take the dogs for a good run while he is doing it, I have no problem with that at all.


----------



## Staysee

As i've seen a few post saying people who are so anti-hunt need to learn more about what the hunt is about....well i have!

I grew up in a city so never came across any "hunting" until i was about 14 years old when i did an animal week in school and it was a topic one day. We had two people come in to speak to us....one anti hunt and one hunts man.

We were taught both sides of the story and at the end of each session told that we had to make our own minds up on the issue, given all the details i am still strongly anti hunt

I have read both sides over the years [i am now 24, almost 25] and i wont budge my opinion or keep quiet about how i feel so as not to upset someone, or to not start an argument.

To Amy Manycats [nice name-how many cats? haha] hearing your mother got beaten by sabateurs whilst she was pregnant is awfull.....yes i would yell at the supports, but my main issue is with the actual huntsmen who do the work.

So yes, i know both sides of the story, i've heard extremes from each side but i am still strongly anti-hunt and have always been given the choice to make up my own mind on any issues i come across.

Also, as far as i know....the countryside isnt over running with foxes now is it? And the hunting ban has been in place for quite a while now....i live in the countryside and only hear foxes a handfull of times in a year....we have more badgers round here then foxes and even then we're not over run with them.

So i dont think it can be said its keeping the population down, cos surely natural selection is doing a good enough job itself?


----------



## Amy-manycats

I respect people opinions when they have fully researched something. (In an earlier post I hinted I am somewhat on the fence about it all at the moment) it just seems lots of people are not willing to take the time to listen to both sides of the argument. 

This is one of those debates on here where there is not right answer. A bit like what is the best food.

(ducks for cover)

As for admiring Vixens, how can you not?

They are beautifully wiley clever creatures. They are my Mums favorite animal. Unfotunatly I cannot think of a better substitute to real country men who know the teritory and animals on the land inside out controling the population. The flushin to a gun thing it great in an ideal world but if a dodgy shot is taken I would much prefer the hounds to do their thing than the animal go of any die a slow death. 

And ducking for cover again, anyone ever been stag hunting? hmy:


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Also, as far as i know....the countryside isnt over running with foxes now is it? And the hunting ban has been in place for quite a while now....i live in the countryside and only hear foxes a handfull of times in a year....we have more badgers round here then foxes and even then we're not over run with them.
> 
> So i dont think it can be said its keeping the population down, cos surely natural selection is doing a good enough job itself?


Sorry but this statement shows that you need to know more about the subject.
Although I can perfectly understand yours and anyone else objecting to fox hunting, the statement about not hearing many foxes is not relevant.
Foxes are generally silent, the only times that they would be vocal is either in the mating season or a vixen calling cubs.
Hunting animals are generally silent for obvious reasons, so you not hearing them is no indication of their numbers


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> As i've seen a few post saying people who are so anti-hunt need to learn more about what the hunt is about....well i have!
> 
> I grew up in a city so never came across any "hunting" until i was about 14 years old when i did an animal week in school and it was a topic one day. We had two people come in to speak to us....one anti hunt and one hunts man.
> 
> We were taught both sides of the story and at the end of each session told that we had to make our own minds up on the issue, given all the details i am still strongly anti hunt
> 
> I have read both sides over the years [i am now 24, almost 25] and i wont budge my opinion or keep quiet about how i feel so as not to upset someone, or to not start an argument.
> 
> To Amy Manycats [nice name-how many cats? haha] hearing your mother got beaten by sabateurs whilst she was pregnant is awfull.....yes i would yell at the supports, but my main issue is with the actual huntsmen who do the work.
> 
> So yes, i know both sides of the story, i've heard extremes from each side but i am still strongly anti-hunt and have always been given the choice to make up my own mind on any issues i come across.
> 
> Also, as far as i know....the countryside isnt over running with foxes now is it? And the hunting ban has been in place for quite a while now....i live in the countryside and only hear foxes a handfull of times in a year....we have more badgers round here then foxes and even then we're not over run with them.
> 
> So i dont think it can be said its keeping the population down, cos surely natural selection is doing a good enough job itself?


Unfortunately, no it doesn't. There are instances where isolated populations can and do live unhindered, because there's enough for them to predate on, and they aren't causing any nuisance.

Before you judge the huntsman, just have a think about how many chickens, pigs, sheep and cows live awful lives on our behalves. Foxes live a natural live, if they are canny, they live as long and natural a life as possible, if they aren't they're killed a helluva lot more quickly than most things destined for us to eat.


----------



## JJAK

Amy-manycats said:


> And ducking for cover again, anyone ever been stag hunting? hmy:


Nopes, 
Im originally from leicestershire, lived in the centre of three main fox hunts.....

Iv never even seen it...so dont have an opinion on it?! what happens?


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Before you judge the huntsman, just have a think about how many chickens, pigs, sheep and cows live awful lives on our behalves. Foxes live a natural live, if they are canny, they live as long and natural a life as possible, if they aren't they're killed a helluva lot more quickly than most things destined for us to eat.


Does that mean vegans can judge huntsmen? I will never agree with hunting animals, for me, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever. I have researched both sides of the argument and this is the conclusion I reached.


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Unfortunately, no it doesn't. There are instances where isolated populations can and do live unhindered, because there's enough for them to predate on, and they aren't causing any nuisance.
> 
> Before you judge the huntsman, just have a think about how many chickens, pigs, sheep and cows live awful lives on our behalves. Foxes live a natural live, if they are canny, they live as long and natural a life as possible, if they aren't they're killed a helluva lot more quickly than most things destined for us to eat.


I understand what must happen to chickens who get taken by foxes....i see hunting with my cats and what they catch.

Surely the foxes have as much right to live and eat as us humans do? We're encroaching on thier land and then we put chickens out too!

We get eggs from a farm about 15mins drive away, totally free range and she says about how she gets so many chickens taken by foxes....but she doesnt support fox hunting, but her son does.


----------



## Amy-manycats

I have seen it a few time when we holidayed in Devon. Not something I want to see again. 

They chase a stag to exhaustion, over rough terrain, I watched 1 stag jump a landrover (on a sunken road) that was amasing and it got away 

But I have also watched the kill and that was pretty gruesome, the hounds are not THAT much bigger than fox hounds but the prey is so much bigger. They caught one in a river when I saw it and I can honestly say it was all about the chase which must have been a fantastic thrill but I just saw it as un necessary killing IMO. Stalk and shoot one to eat if needs be at least that is an option with stags that is not an option with foxes.


----------



## Staysee

rona said:


> Sorry but this statement shows that you need to know more about the subject.
> Although I can perfectly understand yours and anyone else objecting to fox hunting, the statement about not hearing many foxes is not relevant.
> Foxes are generally silent, the only times that they would be vocal is either in the mating season or a vixen calling cubs.
> Hunting animals are generally silent for obvious reasons, so you not hearing them is no indication of their numbers


OK maybe hearing them was the wrong thingy to use [im **** with words sometimes haha] but where i live i dont see many signs of foxes

I walk the countryside often either alone, with my dad or in the summer with friends and at all different times of the day and rarely see any signs of foxes, quite a few badger sets tho down in badger wood [aptly named] but anyway!

Dont agree with it


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> Does that mean vegans can judge huntsmen? I will never agree with hunting animals, for me, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever. I have researched both sides of the argument and this is the conclusion I reached.


Have you ever seen hunting or shooting? Do you prefer hunting animals, as opposed to farming them for those who choose to eat meat?



Staysee said:


> I understand what must happen to chickens who get taken by foxes....i see hunting with my cats and what they catch.
> 
> Surely the foxes have as much right to live and eat as us humans do? We're encroaching on thier land and then we put chickens out too!
> 
> We get eggs from a farm about 15mins drive away, totally free range and she says about how she gets so many chickens taken by foxes....but she doesnt support fox hunting, but her son does.


No, huge misconception, we are the ones that own the land, as much as many like to believe we live in a wild land, we really don't. What is important, is that the balance of predator and prey is kept in order, that's not just foxes, but other species like crows, pigeons etc, that can and do cause a lot of damage to crops. All wild creatures have a right to a chance at life, as I posted before, unfortunately, not every animal conceived or born lives, but that's nature. Man is one other control method, where other methods do not exist, ie higher predators, they are an effective control measure, as long as their aim is not to completely wipe out, but simply to control.


----------



## Amy-manycats

Staysee said:


> I understand what must happen to chickens who get taken by foxes....i see hunting with my cats and what they catch.
> 
> Surely the foxes have as much right to live and eat as us humans do? We're encroaching on thier land and then we put chickens out too!
> 
> We get eggs from a farm about 15mins drive away, totally free range and she says about how she gets so many chickens taken by foxes....but she doesnt support fox hunting, but her son does.


It is actually humans that cause the problem but that is a big debate. If we did not eat so much meat there would be less produced and less need to produce so much so cheaply. If we didn't have so many children there would be less demands ont he land etc,IF but that is a massive debate that takes things off track.


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Have you ever seen hunting or shooting? Do you prefer hunting animals, as opposed to farming them for those who choose to eat meat?
> 
> No, huge misconception, we are the ones that own the land, as much as many like to believe we live in a wild land, we really don't. What is important, is that the balance of predator and prey is kept in order, that's not just foxes, but other species like crows, pigeons etc, that can and do cause a lot of damage to crops. All wild creatures have a right to a chance at life, as I posted before, unfortunately, not every animal conceived or born lives, but that's nature. Man is one other control method, where other methods do not exist, ie higher predators, they are an effective control measure, as long as their aim is not to completely wipe out, but simply to control.


We dont live in/on wild land?

Im sure, but i thought animals came first? I thought humans were the ones building on the countryside where animals could once freely roam?

No one really OWNS land. You can pay for it, build on it etc buts its not the same, you cant ever really own ground


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Have you ever seen hunting or shooting? Do you prefer hunting animals, as opposed to farming them for those who choose to eat meat?


Thankfully not in real life! I have viewed plenty of literature and videos from both sides of the debate. In an ideal world I would prefer it if people didn't eat meat! But seeing as that's not going to happen, the most ethical way is my preferred option.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> We dont live in/on wild land?
> 
> Im sure, but i thought animals came first? I thought humans were the ones building on the countryside where animals could once freely roam?
> 
> No one really OWNS land. You can pay for it, build on it etc buts its not the same, you cant ever really own ground


Humans are the so called sentient ones, therefore, we own everything, the land, the animals, everything on it. Honestly, there is no real wild Britain, there is only maintained Britain. And a lot of that is done by those who hunt and shoot, they spend the spare time conserving what's out there, for us to enjoy, unthanked, and often abused for it.


----------



## JJAK

Off subject! 
but sort of on subject?! 

Its wrong for people like me any amy to fox hunt!
But its fine for mass farmers to keep pigs/cows/chickens in terrible lower than low conditions...as long as people get their sunday roast?!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> Thankfully not in real life! I have viewed plenty of literature and videos from both sides of the debate. In an ideal world I would prefer it if people didn't eat meat! But seeing as that's not going to happen, the most ethical way is my preferred option.


And what is the most ethical way then? Not trying to pick on you, but without really seeing what's involved, only seeing footage posted on the internet, which isn't substantiated, how can you form a balanced opinion?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

JJAK said:


> Off subject!
> but sort of on subject?!
> 
> Its wrong for people like me any amy to fox hunt!
> But its fine for mass farmers to keep pigs/cows/chickens in terrible lower than low conditions...as long as people get their sunday roast?!


On this forum, and many others, as long as people aren't forced to read the packaging, yes


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Humans are the so called sentient ones, therefore, we own everything, the land, the animals, everything on it. Honestly, there is no real wild Britain, there is only maintained Britain. And a lot of that is done by those who hunt and shoot, they spend the spare time conserving what's out there, for us to enjoy, unthanked, and often abused for it.


We dont own it, humans came along and claimed it as our own, as we're humans we can do whatever the **** we like!

If its dangerous - kill it!
If its edible - kill it!

The human race is to blaim for most things wrong with this world!


----------



## JJAK

Also off subject, 
but just jumped into my head! 

Has anyone seen the video where the Anti's ran the hounds onto a train track where they were then squished by a train! 

To that poor huntsman it isnt just a dog, its generations and generations of selective breeding, time and effort. 
They breed their dogs to pedigree just like hundreds of people on this forum!


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And what is the most ethical way then? Not trying to pick on you, but without really seeing what's involved, only seeing footage posted on the internet, which isn't substantiated, how can you form a balanced opinion?


I didn't think you were trying to 'pick on' me. However, this thread isn't about ethical farming. My information was not just sourced from the Internet, but it was substantiated. My opinion is that no animal should be 'hunted' and killed, hence why I do not hunt and why I am vegetarian.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> We dont own it, humans came along and claimed it as our own, as we're humans we can do whatever the **** we like!
> 
> If its dangerous - kill it!
> If its edible - kill it!
> 
> The human race is to blaim for most things wrong with this world!


There is not one inch of the British Isles that isn't owned and managed, I'm sorry if you think otherwise, but it simply isn't the case.

I've lived in Africa, where remote tracts of land come under human management, the remotest places in the world, so you'd like to believe. We, humans, manage the environment, and it's up to us to do so in a responsible and ethical way. Allowing an imbalance of predators is not ethical, dealing with that imbalance of predators seems to be the issue, and yet, as posted several times previously, people are more than willing to buy their two for a fiver chickens without any dent to their conscience.


----------



## Staysee

JJAK said:


> Off subject!
> but sort of on subject?!
> 
> Its wrong for people like me any amy to fox hunt!
> But its fine for mass farmers to keep pigs/cows/chickens in terrible lower than low conditions...as long as people get their sunday roast?!


I dont agree animals kept in bad conditions....i remember sending a postcard to the prime minister about caged hens to get it stopped.

We prefer to get meat where we can track it back to the farm, or get it from a local farm where we know how its treated.

My meat consumption has gone down majorley over the years

I dont care if i miss sunday lunch, i dont care not having a fish and chips on friday.

I much prefer a pasta or rice meal, or a lovely stir fry given the chance


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> I didn't think you were trying to 'pick on' me. However, this thread isn't about ethical farming. My information was not just sourced from the Internet, but it was substantiated. My opinion is that no animal should be 'hunted' and killed, hence why I do not hunt and why I am vegetarian.


I was veggie for a while as well, not at all a criticism, again, but I couldn't justify owning pets at the time, and eating other animals.

The years have passed by, and I've seen all sorts of things happen, mellowed, and I prefer the hunters way, a life lived free with the best chance of survival. Much better than a farmed way, with assured death, usually not pleasant.


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There is not one inch of the British Isles that isn't owned and managed, I'm sorry if you think otherwise, but it simply isn't the case.
> 
> I've lived in Africa, where remote tracts of land come under human management, the remotest places in the world, so you'd like to believe. We, humans, manage the environment, and it's up to us to do so in a responsible and ethical way. Allowing an imbalance of predators is not ethical, dealing with that imbalance of predators seems to be the issue, and yet, as posted several times previously, people are more than willing to buy their two for a fiver chickens without any dent to their conscience.


I understand that the land is "managed" but land was never ours to own in the first place, i dont think you understand my point.

I understand where your coming from, but land was never made for us to own and yet we claim every single thing we can


----------



## Amy-manycats

Out of interest are your dogs vegetarian? Do you ensure if not that everything they eat has the best life possible and killed as humanely as possible?

I am not pro animal cruelty but sometimes you choose to have your old animal PTS a case of being cruel to be kind. You kill the foxes so other animals are not suffering ie the chickens (kept for humans). ALso IMO being cruel to be kind on a bigger scale.

Until someone comes up with a better way to manage the countryside foxes included I don't think the ban is right. IMO there is not a better way to do it ATM.


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was veggie for a while as well, not at all a criticism, again, but I couldn't justify owning pets at the time, and eating other animals.
> 
> The years have passed by, and I've seen all sorts of things happen, mellowed, and I prefer the hunters way, a life lived free with the best chance of survival. Much better than a farmed way, with assured death, usually not pleasant.


Same here, but I intend to stay one, hopefully vegan once I build up a repertoire of recipes and am confident I won't make myself ill from a poor diet...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> I understand that the land is "managed" but land was never ours to own in the first place, i dont think you understand my point.
> 
> I understand where your coming from, but land was never made for us to own and yet we claim every single thing we can


Really? We are the most successful species on the planet, surely the land is there for us to take, if we use it well to the benefit of the environment, that's good??



shibby said:


> Same here, but I intend to stay one, hopefully vegan once I build up a repertoire of recipes and am confident I won't make myself ill from a poor diet...


How do you manage to shop ethically? I mean, as a meat eater, I shop locally from a butcher, my landlord rears pigs, a friend rears lambs etc, etc. But when you look at veg, it's a minefield, it's grown and imported from all over the world, I think it's harder, in some respects. to be an ethical veggie, than an ethical meat eater.


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Really? We are the most successful species on the planet, surely the land is there for us to take, if we use it well to the benefit of the environment, that's good??
> 
> 
> 
> We're successful cos of our ruthlessness and willingness to kill anything that could be dangerous or edible or both.
> 
> Not cos we have rights too.
> 
> Also, how many animals can speak back and ask us not to destroy thier homes? They cant, so we just take
Click to expand...


----------



## nfp20

shibby said:


> I didn't think you were trying to 'pick on' me. However, this thread isn't about ethical farming. My information was not just sourced from the Internet, but it was substantiated. My opinion is that no animal should be 'hunted' and killed, hence why I do not hunt and why I am vegetarian.


Sadly you'd need to be a vegan to be true to those values.


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How do you manage to shop ethically? I mean, as a meat eater, I shop locally from a butcher, my landlord rears pigs, a friend rears lambs etc, etc. But when you look at veg, it's a minefield, it's grown and imported from all over the world, I think it's harder, in some respects. to be an ethical veggie, than an ethical meat eater.


Local veg shop or the farm nearby, all locally sourced produce.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> We're successful cos of our ruthlessness and willingness to kill anything that could be dangerous or edible or both.
> 
> Not cos we have rights too.
> 
> Also, how many animals can speak back and ask us not to destroy thier homes? They cant, so we just take


A very apt description of a fox......


----------



## shibby

nfp20 said:


> Sadly you'd need to be a vegan to be true to those values.


How so? I don't use leather products etc. And everything else we eat is locally sourced.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> Local veg shop or the farm nearby, all locally sourced produce.


Kudos, I find it hard when buying fruit and veg not to support vast import distances. I try my best with everything I buy not to support unethical practices, but as you'll know, it aint easy.


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> A very apt description of a fox......


Of course, cos a fox will kill everything it comes across.

A fox isnt as cruel as human beings. Humans have many many ways to survive, we dont have to hunt everything we come across, but we do!

We're the ones wiping out entire species, not the foxes.


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Kudos, I find it hard when buying fruit and veg not to support vast import distances. I try my best with everything I buy not to support unethical practices, but as you'll know, it aint easy.


Absolutely! Companies aren't as forthright as they could be with regards to where they've sourced things either. I find it a great challenge to shop ethically, from toothpaste to socks, it's very difficult.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> Of course, cos a fox will kill everything it comes across.
> 
> A fox isnt as cruel as human beings. Humans have many many ways to survive, we dont have to hunt everything we come across, but we do!
> 
> We're the ones wiping out entire species, not the foxes.


If a huntsman killed everything they came across they wouldn't have horses or hounds for a start.


----------



## nfp20

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was veggie for a while as well, not at all a criticism, again, but I couldn't justify owning pets at the time, and eating other animals.
> 
> The years have passed by, and I've seen all sorts of things happen, mellowed, and I prefer the hunters way, a life lived free with the best chance of survival. Much better than a farmed way, with assured death, usually not pleasant.


Similar to me, when you see how the hunting is carried out and how ethical the vast majority are and then see the contrast between some mass produced farming methods I'd go hunting every day.

I've not read whole thread as just popping in but did anyone see the program on the cattle and pig farms in the states that they are thinking about building here to stock the supermarkets?? Massive indoor quick grow pens with filthy great pig slurry lakes outside?? I've never been so ashamed of the human race  Are we honestly so desperate for cheap meat we'd allow battery farming of cattle and pigs? We wouldn't even know if we were eating it. No I'll stick to what I know and trust.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> Absolutely! Companies aren't as forthright as they could be with regards to where they've sourced things either. I find it a great challenge to shop ethically, from toothpaste to socks, it's very difficult.


This is one thing I try to remind people about, electrical goods, furniture, furnishings etc, cheap and cheerful and usually at the expense of some other culture


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If a huntsman killed everything they came across they wouldn't have horses or hounds for a start.


My point was in general about hunting.

Im sure huntsmen wouldnt kill thier own dog or horse unless it was in pain from some accident/injurt


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> My point was in general about hunting.
> 
> Im sure huntsmen wouldnt kill thier own dog or horse unless it was in pain from some accident/injurt


But you'll assume they will kill at will? Why is that?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

nfp20 said:


> Similar to me, when you see how the hunting is carried out and how ethical the vast majority are and then see the contrast between some mass produced farming methods I'd go hunting every day.
> 
> I've not read whole thread as just popping in but *did anyone see the program on the cattle and pig farms in the states that they are thinking about building here to stock the supermarkets*?? Massive indoor quick grow pens with filthy great pig slurry lakes outside?? I've never been so ashamed of the human race  Are we honestly so desperate for cheap meat we'd allow battery farming of cattle and pigs? We wouldn't even know if we were eating it. No I'll stick to what I know and trust.


Yes, and nothing made me feel more ashamed to be part of the human race, tbh, although I distance myself as much as possible as it is.


----------



## Kinjilabs

We have a hunt here, dont agree with the way they used to chase etc, but saying that do like to see the horses and hounds, just my opinion


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But you'll assume they will kill at will? Why is that?


I said hunting in general.

Going into the wilds and shooting whatever.

Humans have wiped out species from the UK from hunting.

And as much as i'd love to carry on this debate, i should of been in bed a while ago now. I dearly hope this thread is closed by the time im on again tomorrow XD


----------



## nfp20

Staysee said:


> My point was in general about hunting.
> 
> Im sure huntsmen wouldnt kill thier own dog or horse unless it was in pain from some accident/injurt


Actually it might interest you to know that most people that hunt gain more pleasure from the 'one that got away' than they ever do from the kill of an animal. Just like with fishermen who are always after that elusive fish they don't want to catch and kill it just the pleasure of having won against a good foe, who goes on to live another day.

Don't tarr everyone with the bloodthirsty brush they really are few and far between and most are ashamed of the ones whose only interest is the quantity they kill.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> I said hunting in general.
> 
> Going into the wilds and shooting whatever.
> 
> Humans have wiped out species from the UK from hunting.
> 
> And as much as i'd love to carry on this debate, i should of been in bed a while ago now. I dearly hope this thread is closed by the time im on again tomorrow XD


Sorry, I really find it sad that you hope the debate is closed, and apologies for keeping you up longer than necessary. I personally love the meat from game, and hope that we can continue hunting and shooting in the UK, the option of farming, and factory farming really is quite scary. I'd rather have a few 'ethical' meals, than eat anything from a mass produced source


----------



## skyblue

shibby said:


> Local veg shop or the farm nearby, all locally sourced produce.


not wanting to get you to change your thoughts or anything,but this locally produced veg......how many rabbits,crows etc do you think died when it was growing,just to protect it from 'vermin'.....and while harvesting how many field mice,snakes etc died because they couldn't avoid the machinary


----------



## Guest

nfp20 said:


> Actually it might interest you to know that most people that hunt gain more pleasure from the 'one that got away' than they ever do from the kill of an animal. Just like with fishermen who are always after that elusive fish they don't want to catch and kill it just the pleasure of having won against a good foe, who goes on to live another day.
> 
> Don't tarr everyone with the bloodthirsty brush they really are few and far between and most are ashamed of the ones whose only interest is the quantity they kill.


that is very true:thumbup:


----------



## shibby

skyblue said:


> not wanting to get you to change your thoughts or anything,but this locally produced veg......how many rabbits,crows etc do you think died when it was growing,just to protect it from 'vermin'.....and while harvesting how many field mice,snakes etc died because they couldn't avoid the machinary


That wouldn't get me to change my thoughts. I do the best I can do, short of having my own allotment, which isn't feasible. Anyway, this thread is about hunting, of which I do not support.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> That wouldn't get me to change my thoughts. I do the best I can do, short of having my own allotment, which isn't feasible. Anyway, this thread is about hunting, of which I do not support.


No, but the reasons you don't support hunting, are ethical issues? Surely that's linked to where and how other food is raised?


----------



## Guest

I dont really know how I feel about this.

I dont really see a problem with drag hunting but as long as it is only drag hunting.

I dont agree with fox hunting or really any hunting UNLESS the animal is made use of once dead (for example deer hunting - food and so on) even then I am on the fence.

I dont think the thread needs to be closed...after all its a friendly debate.


----------



## nfp20

shibby said:


> That wouldn't get me to change my thoughts. I do the best I can do, short of having my own allotment, which isn't feasible. Anyway, this thread is about hunting, of which I do not support.


Sadly even on an allotment you would still need to practise pest control to retain any hope of having a harvest at the end of all your hard work. Each bug we kill to protect our veg is a part of the food chain so you effect each part of it from the small bugs to the largest of the farm and wild animals and birds who in turn feed or are dependent upon them.

Its a chain of events that goes hand in hand but sadly so few see that and if they do so few are prepared to admit that you can't just pick and choose which part of the ethical debate you are prepared accept and discard based on your own personal acceptance levels.

I fully admire people who stick to their principles but its worth remembering that veg needs animal sh*t to grow.


----------



## skyblue

ok..here goes,i cant call myself a hunt supporter but i'm not against it,i'd like to see it return if i'm honest...but it needs strict rules

my dad worked in the countryside restoring horse drawn carraiges(he did the hearse that was on eastenders and was used for norman wisdoms funeral,we paid to have the full regalia at his own funeral)...he came into contact with alot of these country people so i got to hear both sides of the story.

some farmers would protect a foxes hearth with cubs in it,even going as far as providing food,that would have to stop

as it stood the hunt could trample anyones garden if it was in the way,that would be a no no

if a fox goes to earth its won,there would be no digging or sending jack russels down to flush it out

these are just a few things that happened that would have to change..it is after all a very british tradition,like it or not


----------



## skyblue

nfp20 said:


> Sadly even on an allotment you would still need to practise pest control to retain any hope of having a harvest at the end of all your hard work. Each bug we kill to protect our veg is a part of the food chain so you effect each part of it from the small bugs to the largest of the farm and wild animals who in turn feed or are dependent upon them.
> 
> Its a chain of events that goes hand in hand but sadly so few see that and if they do so few are prepared to admit that you can't just pick and choose which part of the ethical debate you are prepared accept and discard based on your own personal acceptance levels.


where i can see what you're saying you can get excellent harvests of an allotment with proper companion planting


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, but the reasons you don't support hunting, are ethical issues? Surely that's linked to where and how other food is raised?


I think it's morally wrong. The thread is regarding hunting, I briefly mentioned vegetarianism in response to something stated earlier. It's hardly the crux of the thread.



nfp20 said:


> Sadly even on an allotment you would still need to practise pest control to retain any hope of having a harvest at the end of all your hard work. Each bug we kill to protect our veg is a part of the food chain so you effect each part of it from the small bugs to the largest of the farm and wild animals who in turn feed or are dependent upon them.
> 
> Its a chain of events that goes hand in hand but sadly so few see that and if they do so few are prepared to admit that you can't just pick and choose which part of the ethical debate you are prepared accept and discard based on your own personal acceptance levels.


Of course I see that, I am fully aware having done quite enough research to know what goes on! One can not be 100% ethical, but they can strive to be as ethical as they can. At least if I had an allotment I wouldn't be using farming machinery, which was my point.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> I think it's morally wrong. The thread is regarding hunting, I briefly mentioned vegetarianism in response to something stated earlier. It's hardly the crux of the thread.
> 
> So if you buy veg from a farmer who couldn't care less about ethical issues, that's ok?


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So if you buy veg from a farmer who couldn't care less about ethical issues, that's ok?


This is getting daft now


----------



## Tapir

piggybaker said:


> "They always talk like they have a silver spoon in their mouths"
> 
> it *appears* only the dog handlers and the grooms are the real people there doing a job and being paid..


Not at all...this is so typical of how the media portray it, and how half the anti's out there are only against it because it's 'ponces on horses'.

I can assure you that most in the hunts round here are like that, they are real people, who work hard to pay for their horses and are certainly not stuck up or posh people. It's not cheap to take part, you do have to pay for subscription/cap but a majority round here are just normal horsey people. You get a few upper class folk, usually high up - huntsmaster etc.

I am pro hunting, and I can't stand it when people and media put all emotive language to flame the situation.

Saying things like 'hounds baying behind a fox as blood-thirsty hunters watch it get ripped to shreds'
Hounds kill the fox. end of.

It's as bad as calling staffs etc 'devil dogs'...media hype, playing with peoples emotions.

I have been bought up in that country lifestyle, so maybe I'm just used to that kind of thing, and I'm not that soft.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> This is getting daft now


Why? Surely you should care as much about where your fruit/veg comes from, as much as where animals are raised for the table?


----------



## shibby

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why? Surely you should care as much about where your fruit/veg comes from, as much as where animals are raised for the table?


Shall we think of every possible scenario? Like what about the man delivering the veg, should I be concerned about him standing on a worm whilst making that delivery? Really, the thread is about *hunting*, how about discussing the repeal or something more on topic. If you're that concerned, start an ethical foods thread, I'd be more inclined to discuss it on there.

And on that note, I'm checking out...


----------



## Tapir

skyblue said:


> ok..here goes,i cant call myself a hunt supporter but i'm not against it,i'd like to see it return if i'm honest...but it needs strict rules
> 
> my dad worked in the countryside restoring horse drawn carraiges(he did the hearse that was on eastenders and was used for norman wisdoms funeral,we paid to have the full regalia at his own funeral)...he came into contact with alot of these country people so i got to hear both sides of the story.
> 
> some farmers would protect a foxes hearth with cubs in it,even going as far as providing food,that would have to stop
> 
> as it stood the hunt could trample anyones garden if it was in the way,that would be a no no
> 
> if a fox goes to earth its won,there would be no digging or sending jack russels down to flush it out
> 
> these are just a few things that happened that would have to change..it is after all a very british tradition,like it or not


Brilliant post :thumbup: green blob for you.


----------



## SophieCyde

I have been a beater for a pheasant hunt before and I do not mind shooting with guns or even if it was fox hunting with one dog. I hate though seeing one terrified and exhausted fox being ripped apart by 25 dogs though  can't see how anyone would gain pleasure from that...


----------



## skyblue

SophieCyde said:


> I have been a beater for a pheasant hunt before and I do not mind shooting with guns or even if it was fox hunting with one dog. I hate though seeing one terrified and exhausted fox being ripped apart by 25 dogs though  can't see how anyone would gain pleasure from that...


i'm very pro pheasant hunting,some do actually get away and populate the countryside


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shibby said:


> Shall we think of every possible scenario? Like what about the man delivering the veg, should I be concerned about him standing on a worm whilst making that delivery? Really, the thread is about *hunting*, how about discussing the repeal or something more on topic. If you're that concerned, start an ethical foods thread, I'd be more inclined to discuss it on there.
> 
> And on that note, I'm checking out...


I did an ethical thread a while back hun, perhaps you want to dig it up? Really, people pick and choose their ethics, it's ok to kill this or that under certain circumstances, it's not ok to kill others.

We have such a very skewed version of ethics now, I'd prefer that every person eating meat could, and did handle animals, slaughter etc . We're behind this I feel in European communities, perhaps one day soon we'll catch up.


----------



## Tapir

what i dont understand is...

I _believe_ it is currently legal to flush a fox using a dog, for a bird of prey to then kill. Surely this is more suffering for the fox than being killed by a pack?
Yes with the hounds it is 'ripped apart' but it dies as soon as they got hold of it. It's not going to last long with 10 couple foxhounds hanging off it is it.
Whereas a single BOP killing it would surely take much longer?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tapir said:


> what i dont understand is...
> 
> I _believe_ it is currently legal to flush a fox using a dog, for a bird of prey to then kill. Surely this is more suffering for the fox than being killed by a pack?
> Yes with the hounds it is 'ripped apart' but it dies as soon as they got hold of it. It's not going to last long with 10 couple foxhounds hanging off it is it.
> Whereas a single BOP killing it would surely take much longer?


That'd be because not everyone has a full understanding of hunting.


----------



## Guest

skyblue said:


> i'm very pro pheasant hunting,some do actually get away and populate the countryside


Around here i think more of the dozy bloody things run in front of cars than actually get shot!!!


----------



## skyblue

jon bda said:


> Around here i think more of the dozy bloody things run in front of cars than actually get shot!!!


that would be the roadrunners......beep beep


----------



## mitch4

jon bda said:


> Around here i think more of the dozy bloody things run in front of cars than actually get shot!!!


 i was just about to say this


----------



## hawksport

Tapir said:


> what i dont understand is...
> 
> I _believe_ it is currently legal to flush a fox using a dog, for a bird of prey to then kill. Surely this is more suffering for the fox than being killed by a pack?
> Yes with the hounds it is 'ripped apart' but it dies as soon as they got hold of it. It's not going to last long with 10 couple foxhounds hanging off it is it.
> Whereas a single BOP killing it would surely take much longer?


Catching fox and wolf with BOPs is a brutal way of doing it


----------



## Staysee

In bed now on me phone but just thinking...


Yes, I have very little respect for the hunt and it followers as I don't see how anyone can be a fan of murder, I understand for some its a way of life and fair enough, everyone has their own ways

But saying it has to be kept cos its tradition? How many "traditions" should then be brought back if we should keep this one, sure plenty of old traditions wouldn't be welcomed back, so why this one?


Also! Why do the people who support have to be at the defensive and pick apart an anti hunts opinion, telling them how wrong they are and they should learn more. But it seems common to me that pro hunters are always on gaurd and don't respect others opinions and yes I've seen this many times...online and in person


Now I must go sleep!


----------



## XxZoexX

This is one of them subjects where even i dont know where i stand.. the hunt looks amazing and interesting but then i can see where some people think its cruel. 
What i dont get is what are the actual numbers? Are they thousands of people out there at weekend hunting foxes? There are probably millions of animals kept in sh*te conditions injured and killed inhumanly every year.. from puppy farming to over fishing the seas.. just dont see why fox hunting has precedence over other things that should be controlled/banned.


----------



## skyblue

dont forget one thing.....those saboteurs are possibly the same people who keep breaking into private property and releasing mink into the british countryside


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

*I think everyone knows my opinion on this subject. I detest all blood sports. Those who indulge in such activities will always try and justify their actions and put false claims across such as 'pest control', etc
Thankfully i can't see the ban will ever be lifted. *


----------



## dee o gee

skyblue said:


> dont forget one thing.....those saboteurs are possibly the same people who keep breaking into private property and releasing mink into the british countryside


And irish countryside.  One particular girl I know who supports this also has a picture on her facebook page which says 'save the animals- encourage hunters to drink and drive'.  

I know a good few people who hunt, both on horseback and on foot, they are definitely not 'upper class', snobby or foaming at the mouth murderers killing anything that moves. In fact 2 people I know who hunt are training to be vet nurses.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Muppets are pests to me am I allowed to hunt them . I promise my dogs will make it quick and painless, getting ripped apart doesn't hurt that much honest! :lol:


----------



## shoreset

rona said:


> They aren't allowed to do that now so these pictures are of people probably holding a drag hunt.
> Have you got anything against that?


yeah it's probs a drag hunt, but all the people i know that hunt (and are very involved) dont really mind telling you that if they do come across a real fox they dont call the dogs off or intend to let the fox live for that matter. :frown:


----------



## Amethyst

shibby said:


> I think it's morally wrong. The thread is regarding hunting, I briefly mentioned vegetarianism in response to something stated earlier. It's hardly the crux of the thread.


It's got absoloutley NOTHING to do with thread 

It's not unusual for people who are pro blood sports to bring it up as a diversion tactic or as justification as to what they enjoy doing to animals, is no worse than other animal abuse (factory farming)...

Personally I believe any kind of hunting for pleasure and that involves hunting with hounds, which is without doubt more a social event than of any real purpose, should be consigned to history's dustbin. Along with bear and bull baiting, cock and dog fighting etc.

Sure some sad individuals still engage in dog fighting etc, just as some still hunt foxes with hounds, accidentally of course. But no one who who respects and has compassion for animals wants to see these things legal ...

I am with Freespirit, I don't think the ban will be lifted ... ever 

If animals must be killed, let it be done humanely and with compassion, not cruelly and with glee


----------



## JANICE199

nfp20 said:


> Actually it might interest you to know that most people that hunt gain more pleasure from the 'one that got away' than they ever do from the kill of an animal. Just like with fishermen who are always after that elusive fish they don't want to catch and kill it just the pleasure of having won against a good foe, who goes on to live another day.
> 
> Don't tarr everyone with the bloodthirsty brush they really are few and far between and most are ashamed of the ones whose only interest is the quantity they kill.


*IF,(and i have to say i don't believe that statement), are you saying the pleasure they get is watching some poor terrified animal being chased for no reason other than fun? In my book that makes them sick morons.And i'm being polite.*


----------



## dobermummy

i dont understand how anyone can get any pleasure from chasing a defenceless, scared animal for miles untill it is so exhausted it can not run any further and is then ripped apart by the dogs :confused1:


----------



## Waterlily

I couldnt give a shitt about class, or any other excuse for inflicting fear and pain on an innocent animal just for fun or sport. Bloody inhumane and the act of spoilt brats.


----------



## Natik

I am against fox hunting and hope the ban will never be lifted. 
Chasing an scared animal for pleasure and allowing it to get ripped apart is not a activity i could ever enjoy. 
So many poor excuses people come up with to justify such a disgusting sport


----------



## Amy-manycats

> Unfortunatly i do not respect thier opinion.
> 
> 
> A certain amount of so called "hunting" goes on that is so far from hunting and "keeping numbers down" that it just made me cry thinking about it.
> 
> Unfortunatly i live in a village where hunting is popular and i've had mini arguements with people i work with over it
> 
> There are other ways of keeping the population down other then brutually hunting the foxes
> Reply With Quote


Staysee first you start with saying you do not respect other people opinions, (above)then you go on to complain that people do not repect yours (below). I sugest if you do want people to listen to your opinion in future you start out a little more open minded or at least less confrontational. :thumbup:



Staysee said:


> In bed now on me phone but just thinking...
> 
> Yes, I have very little respect for the hunt and it followers as I don't see how anyone can be a fan of murder, I understand for some its a way of life and fair enough, everyone has their own ways
> 
> But saying it has to be kept cos its tradition? How many "traditions" should then be brought back if we should keep this one, sure plenty of old traditions wouldn't be welcomed back, so why this one?
> 
> Also! Why do the people who support have to be at the defensive and pick apart an anti hunts opinion, telling them how wrong they are and they should learn more. But it seems common to me that pro hunters are always on gaurd and don't respect others opinions and yes I've seen this many times...online and in person
> 
> Now I must go sleep!


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Me too, the one of Peter Swann with one of his hounds is beautiful, what a bond!


Very sweet, but I wonder what will happen to that hound when it's too slow to keep up with the hunt? Isn't it true that many Foxhounds don't live beyond say 5 or 7 years? They are pts when no longer of any use aren't they?
Many die before that when young pups/dogs, if they don't behave and show potential ... More innocent casualities of hunting.

Of course this one might be lucky and Peter Swann might be giving it a home himself, he does look so very fond of it, yes, such a bond 

I am sure he has several retired Foxhounds in front of his fire ...


----------



## hawksport

Amethyst said:


> Very sweet, but I wonder what will happen to that hound when it's too slow to keep up with the hunt? Isn't it true that many Foxhounds don't live beyond say 5 or 7 years? They are pts when no longer of any use aren't they?
> Many die before that when young pups/dogs, if they don't behave and show potential ... More innocent casualities of hunting.
> 
> Of course this one might be lucky and Peter Swann might be giving it a home himself, he does look so very fond of it, yes, such a bond
> 
> I am sure he has several retired Foxhounds in front of his fire ...


The number of hunt dogs destoyed is insignificant when compared to the number of pet dogs destroyed


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> The number of hunt dogs destoyed is insignificant when compared to the number of pet dogs destroyed


And that makes it right? Or excuses it?

I wouldn't say so ...


----------



## hawksport

Amethyst said:


> And that makes it right? Or excuses it?
> 
> I wouldn't say so ...


No but if your talking about dog welfare you would be better off banning dogs as pets


----------



## JANICE199

Some facts for you all to browse over.
The Lame Claims File
The fox-lovers handbook of answers to lame claims  as to why its acceptable to torture foxes to death.
Lame Claim Answer
1. Its a BAD law... Baa-aad! Unenforceable... confusing... we dont understand it. Read it more carefully! Improve it, tighten it up, monitor violations more rigorously, enforce it more diligently. If the law against child molestation was found to be unenforceable, what would we do? Repeal the law? I dont think so.
2. It took up too much parliamentary time. No it didnt. This law was introduced by proper parliamentary process  in accordance with the will of the majority of the British public, who consider hunting with dogs barbaric and unacceptable, and see this law as a flagship move towards better treatment of ALL animals wild animals, farm animals, and laboratory animals. The fact that Tim Bonner of the Countryside Alliance boasts that the Tories could smash this law in a day is proof that these people care nothing for the will of the people. God help us all if they seize power.
3. Foxes are vermin; if we didnt hunt them, wed be overrun with them. So... how come the Hunts construct artificial earths to encourage the breeding of foxes, and, when foxes become scarce in a particular area, the hunts re-introduce them? Hunt supporters have elsewhere actually claimed that if there were no foxhunting, foxes would have been extinct by now. Surely there must be more humane ways to save an endangered species?

By the way... DEFRA defines which animals are classed as vermin in the UK. The fox is not among them. Foxes are NOT vermin. This is in fact a very old argument  only now heard from hunting advocates who have not kept up. Its so obviously a lie, that it has been replaced in the mouths of most Countryside Alliance members with this next (pretty much opposite) argument.
4. We dont persecute foxes - we love them... we conserve them... we preserve a balance - we even enoble them by hunting them - and we strengthen the breed by picking off the weakest. Well, make up your minds - just now, they were vermin - pests - to be controlled. Now suddenly they are precious - and I bet they enjoy being enobled by being pursued and dismembered alive by dogs. Yes, folks, if there were no foxes, the foxhunters would have no fun. So they make sure there are enough to hunt  and the numbers go down in a particular area, they import them. (Oh, and by the way, if being hunted is good for the species... perhaps wed better instigate the hunting of humans... itll improve the strength of our species too... goody!) If we really want to get technical, my ecology advisor adds, This whole savannah theory of maintaining balance by removing predators only applies when those species have coevolved together and are infact in a delicate balance. We did not co-evolve predating foxes in this manner, so this argument is ecologically unsound.
5. Its traditional - traditions are good - they are our birth-right. Oh, really? So the traditions of wife beating, bear baiting, slave whipping, burning of supposed witches, birching of schoolchildren (and so many more atrocities)... were all traditions that ought to have been preserved... right?! Just because something has been done for years does not make it right. If traditions were always upheld, women would still not have a vote. Traditions my ass.
6. Foxes are vicious and cruel - havent you seen what they do to a chicken coop if they get in? They kill all the birds for pleasure.

Not true - its another bit of outdated propaganda. If a hungry animal suddenly finds food, it will eat it... just like we do... but the foxes kill extra chickens with the purpose of burying them for future use, when the pickings are slim. Left to themselves they will come back and bury those chickens... but they are not completely stupid; if there is a farmer with a gun waiting to shoot him, Mr. Fox is not going to come back and collect the food supplies. Killing for pleasure? Make no mistake... there is only one animal that does this... MAN.

7. Foxes are dirty. Nope - theyre not... our rescued foxes spend at least as much time grooming themselves as the average domestic cat; in fact they are very cat-like in many ways... this is something I never realised until I spent time with these delightful animals. They dont cover up their poo, but neither do any of our domestic dogs. Its not the end of the world, and certainly not a good enough reason to persecute them.
8. Its NATURAL for men to hunt foxes, just like Lions hunt antelope. Well, the flaw in this argument is blindingly obvious. Lions kill for food... but humans do not eat foxes. There is only one reason to hunt down and murder a fox... for fun... for sport. Its not in any way justifiable. Its barbaric, and its cruel - its also clearly a crime, as defined by the 1909 Cruelty to Animals act. By the way, have we not noticed that it is NOT the hunters who manage to pull off this great sporting achievement - its the hounds?
9. Ah well, yes - it's natural for DOGS to kill foxes. Rubbish. It is in no way natural. Weve already published pictures of our local dogs playing with the rescued foxes... along with deer and various birds. The fox is a naturally, delightfully gentle creature  timid, and built for running. The average dog, when decently looked after, is also playful, gentle and peaceful. The only way to make dogs vicious - ready to tear apart Foxes, Stags, Hares, or even Humans - is to brutalise them - half-starve them - deprive them of affection, and house them in such wretched conditions that they go berserk when allowed out to run. The Hunts test the hound puppies on fox cubs. Its the charming practice of cubbing, wherein, once the parent fox has been slaughtered, the tiny fox-cubs are poked out or dug out from their homes, and forced into the path of the young hounds - already toughened up and ready to mutilate. The young hounds eat the fox pups alive. If the young dogs are not vicious enough, the Huntsmen shoot them - another nice piece of natural selection designed to make the pack not only healthy but also as vicious as possible. Even leaving aside this abhorrent cruelty to foxes, in a decent society it ought to be illegal to raise a dog for the sole purpose of killing. (In fact, as noted in LC 11, currently it IS illegal to breed dogs for dog-fighting... we logically we need to bring things into line... so that what is law for the yobs is law for the toffs too.

Its interesting that perhaps the foxhunting community of people have been in a sense brutalised, too  brought up in a way that has desensitised them to the cruelty around them.
10. By hunting we eliminate the weakest animals, so we strengthen the species. The foxes are either killed, or get away if they are strong. Just like in Africa. Good try. But this is just another sly (yes, its the humans who are sly  not the dear old foxes) attempt to bend the truth. In fact, the appallingly cruel methods used in the Hunt ensure that the chances survival of a fox in no way depend on its natural strength. Foxes are routinely imported, kept in bags so they are weakened and disoriented when they are let out in front of a pack of brutalised hounds. And the truth is that the occasional fox who actually does manage to elude the dogs is usually accounted for, by digging out and being shot anyway. No-one should be allowed to treat animals this way.
11. Its all about class! The middle and working classes are jealous of the toffs, and want to deprive them of their rights - among them, the right to treat any animal on their land any way they see fit. Nonsense. It is nothing to do with class. Decent people are equally outraged if a young thug in Yorkshire goes out with his pit-bull terrier and encourages it to savage wild animals, or if a rich land-owner in Berkshire goes out with HIS brutalised dogs and commits an atrocity on a fox, or rabbit, or otter. None of us care a jot about class. We care about animals. Brutal behaviour is brutal behaviour. There is no excuse.
12. You people who live in towns dont understand the ways of the countryside. Leave us alone and mind your own business! This is a good one... so glib... so ALMOST convincing. The Countryside Alliance is very keen to tell the townie politicians how to run the whole of Britain - and has managed to make farming the most heavily subsidised industry in the land. Yet these same people deny the towns people the right to protect animals in the countryside... as if country people OWNED our wildlife. Imagine land-owners insisting that, if child-abuse happened on their land, nobody in town had the right to try to stop it. Wed all say... these children might be on your land, but they still have rights - we reserve the right to monitor your behaviour and stop the cruelty where we find it. Yet these Countryside Alliance stalwarts would have us accept that wild animals straying on to their land legitimately become subject to their every whim. Its a vile conceit.
13. You are taking away our human right to socialise in our traditional way. Not at all. We absolutely defend your right to meet up on a crisp country morning, dressed up in pinks, and scamper about on your horses. What we dispute is your right to trample everything in your path, endangering peoples property, children, pets and livestock. And we dispute your right to kill animals for your pleasure, in a hideously cruel manner.

Drag hunting, with the hounds following a scent other than fox, gives you all the socialising you need, and all the exercise; and it has the huge advantage that the path of the hunt can be pre-planned, so that your neighbours are not threatened by invasion. If you refuse to accept this as a decent alternative, it can only be that you need the thrill of killing, and that you actually crave the feeling of wanton disregard for anyone around you... that feeling of superiority, perhaps  Lords of the Manor and all that? Its time to come into the 21st century.
14. If we are prevented from killing foxes using dogs, farmers have to control these pests by shooting them. Farmers are poor marksmen, so many foxes die a lingering death from gunshot wounds - which is inhumane. Inhumane? Excuse me?!!! Given the choice of being pursued until your muscles are paralysed and then ripped apart by hounds; or shot with a bullet, with the chance of an instant death, which would you choose? I asked this question to the man who would be the new head of DEFRA (the Department of the Environment and Farming and Rural Affairs) if the Tories were elected in May. He at least had the decency to say he wasnt entirely sure. But many of the Countryside Alliance propagandists continue to insist that being killed by hounds is a desirable option. Sorry, but... simply not believable. We always come back to the same conclusion... the only reason to be indulging in this filthy blood sport is that you enjoy causing unnecessary pain to animals.
Here is the link...SAVE ME 2010 | Lame Claims - Brian May's answers to pro-hunt lame claims!


----------



## Guest

Lets face it. The death of any animal for the pleasure or use of humans is abhorrent.
I have have been involved in both country sports and farming, seen some really bad cruelty in both, in country sports though I've also seen amazing respect for the quarry by a large number of hunters.
We aren't going to stop the death of many thousands of animals by talking but if more animal lovers would do as I do and get involved in these areas of life then just as I have done, you can make damn sure that the life these animals lead is the best possible.
I still believe that a "farmed" pheasant/grouse/partridge/deer that are shot in the open countryside have a far better life than ANY animal kept in captivity.
Foxes are completely different as they are not a food source. I'm really not sure where I stand on this one. It's easy to sit on the fence when they have no impact on your life, but the fact is that in certain areas foxes are a threat to the livelihood of many farmers.
This brings you back to the fact that this is all about the death of animals for human use. I'm torn on this issue and completely confused


----------



## Tapir

does anyone have isues with ratting terriers?


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> No but if your talking about dog welfare you would be better off banning dogs as pets


Talk about more diversion tactics  :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

hawksport said:


> No but if your talking about dog welfare you would be better off banning dogs as pets


I didn't even need to move my fingers, good point!

How many people know of others who have pets that aren't well kept, children allowed to keep hamsters and fish, and, of course, they all live a full and happy life 100% of the time.

Foxhounds are not pets, they are working animals, and they're not the only working animal by far not to live to the full possible extent of their life. Doesn't mean that they are uncared for, and treated inhumanely, in fact by far the opposite, they are living a very natural life and obviously gain enjoyment from that.


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> By the way... DEFRA defines which animals are classed as vermin in the UK. The fox is not among them. Foxes are NOT vermin. This is in fact a very old argument - only now heard from hunting advocates who have not kept up. It's so obviously a lie, that it has been replaced in the mouths of most Countryside Alliance members with this next (pretty much opposite) argument.


Havent read the whole of the above, Im neither here nor there on the issue - I dont like the idea of it but i can see the argument.

But wrt DEFRA and vermin...they do not class them as vermin maybe, but in certain situations they are classed as PEST

A pest is defined as something that:
Spreads disease
Damages Livestock/property
Damages Feedstuf.
Is a danger to public saftey

For Farm owners, Foxes cause damage to their livestock. Therefore are a pest in this situation. Not to say they are in ALL situations.

I favour more efficient means of pest control, but I dont know the ins and outs enough to make a decent judgement on the hunts,


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Talk about more diversion tactics  :lol:


Its quite clear that no one is going to agree. Though it seems it is harder for the antis to accept the oppinions of the pros.

Just agree to disagree...your not going to change our minds and we won't change yours.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Talk about more diversion tactics  :lol:


No, but a fact, one dog is put to sleep every hour in this country because it's unwanted. How many more suffer behind closed doors, unwanted, unwalked, poorly fed, etc, etc? Far more pets suffer on the whole, than foxhounds and foxes, and yet would people be willing to give up pet ownership to stop this?


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Foxhounds are not pets, they are working animals, and they're not the only working animal by far not to live to the full possible extent of their life. Doesn't mean that they are uncared for, and treated inhumanely, in fact by far the opposite, they are living a very natural life and obviously gain enjoyment from that.


Albeit in many cases a very short life ... Not much beyond puppyhood in fact in some cases!

I think that this mentality is sadly shared by many in the Greyhound industry too. They justify the exploitation and high euthanasia rate by claiming these dogs are not pets. What are they? Livestock? Speaks volumes about the people concerned ...

Yes British wildlife is far from the only thing abused in the name of bloodsports


----------



## hawksport

Amethyst said:


> Talk about more diversion tactics  :lol:


Not a diversion tactic just a fact. I don't agree with fox hunting with a pack of hounds


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Albeit in many cases a very short life ... Not much beyond puppyhood in fact in some cases!
> 
> I think that this mentality is sadly shared by many in the Greyhound industry too. They justify the exploitation and high euthanasia rate by claiming these dogs are not pets. What are they? Livestock? Speaks volumes about the people concerned ...
> 
> Yes British wildlife is far from the only thing abused in the name of bloodsports


Eh? I'm not sure where you get your facts from, but I doubt anywhere very factual. Foxhounds are well bred and highly valued animals, certain lines have been going for many, many years.

Greyhounds, is that a diversionary tactic :thumbup:


----------



## piggybaker

Tapir said:


> does anyone have isues with ratting terriers?


In what respect.. I believe rats are not clean animals,, not my pet ones,,, ratting terriers enjoy the chase,, but to be perfectly honest I know not alot on that subject ,, but then you could go on to say what about ferreting for rabbits,, but you can eat a rabbit?


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Greyhounds, is that a diversionary tactic :thumbup:


No simply an example of another abused dog used in the name of sport


----------



## Guest

piggybaker said:


> In what respect.. I believe rats are not clean animals,, not my pet ones,,, ratting terriers enjoy the chase,, but to be perfectly honest I know not alot on that subject ,, but then you could go on to say what about ferreting for rabbits,, but you can eat a rabbit?


Rats are pests, as foxes are pests. Just in a different manner. Just rats are less cute. Is a dog chasing and killing a rat any different to the foxhound chasing and killing a fox.... I would say there is a difference. Not because of the animal in itself (both are pests), but because a terrier will kill the rat swiftly. I doubt it is so quick for the hounds to kill a fox.


----------



## Spellweaver

Ah. fox-hunting - nothing like a good old favourite to debate to clear the Christmas spirit away! 

Not read all the thread yet - but I will!  - but until I catch up two points are shouting out at me already (apologies if someone has already addressed these):

1. Some people have pointed out that we shouldn't judge huntsmen because it's a way of life, it's what they've always done, what they've always known - well, so were children working down the mines, slavery, apartheid, dog-fighting, etc etc etc. They were not right and society did something about them. Fox hunting is not right and society is trying to do something about that too. Just because fox-hunters dress up in pretty clothes and look nice galloping aropund the countryside does not make it less cruel. I hope for once that the Mail is right and that the government is going to put the repeal of the law on ice. After the school fees debacle perhaps the government are now afraid of going against the weight of public opinion in order to satisfy the vociferious few and are not going to repeal the law. I guess it is definitely going to be one of the hot topics on their new petition site for things to be debated in parliament :thumbup:

2. Some people have pointed out that we should not argue against fox hunting because of the horrendous way in which we keep farm animals. That's a nonsensical argument - a bit like trying to justify smoking by pointing out that car exhausts emit noxious and dangerous substances too. BOTH are wrong and BOTH need fighting against - and most people I know who are against fox-hunting are against ALL forms of animals cruelty.


----------



## Amethyst

Spellweaver said:


> BOTH are wrong and BOTH need fighting against - and most people I know who are against fox-hunting are against ALL forms of animals cruelty.


Good post spellweaver and I agree with you, on all points, but wanted to highlight this one 

x


----------



## Spellweaver

Amy-manycats said:


> Until someone comes up with a better way to manage the countryside foxes included I don't think the ban is right. IMO there is not a better way to do it ATM.


Trapping (in a humane cage-type trap) and then shooting is a much better and much more humane way to manage an over-population of foxes than allowing them to be chased to exhaustion and then ripped to shreds by a pack of dogs. Much better for the foxes, that is - but of course, it does mean that the huntspeople don't get their "fun", which is why they try to justify it by pretending that a fox would be more frightened by being trapped than by being chased and ripped to shreds. Yeah, right


----------



## hawksport

Rona, I'm confused too.
If it were pest control there would be one man a couple of terrieres and some nets.
If it were sport then they would do as I do and if the quarry makes it to ground they would wish it well and move on
So what is it?


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> Rona, I'm confused too.
> If it were pest control there would be one man a couple of terrieres and some nets.
> If it were sport then they would do as I do and if the quarry makes it to ground they would wish it well and move on
> So what is it?


Good question!


----------



## Amy-manycats

True that is more humane but the fox would still be panic stricken being trapped in a cage,. Foxes are smart they would need luring in, there is potential to catch other animals in the traps badgers etc after. They would need checking V regularly for it to be humane. If checked regularly the smell of human would be overwhelming to a country fox and so it would be suspicious and not take the bait.

I do encourage the ideas of making it more humane.

There is a whole economic debate too. Not getting away from the fact that you would have to pay someone to trap on your land, and if it was on someone elses land but affecting your stock who would pay for that? 

The kills I have seen they are VERY quick, that cannot be under estimated, anyone who thinks it is prolonged has never seen it. (refering to the ratting debate where somone thought it was ok to use a terrier to rat as it was quick )


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But you'll assume they will kill at will? Why is that?


I would assume this. I have said on here before that I truly cannot understand the mentality of anyone who can willingly do something - and who can actually enjoy doing something - that will end in an animal being ripped to shreds by a pack of dogs. In my opinion, anyone who has that sort of mentality has to enjoy killing, and if someone enjoys killing then who knows where they will stop?



nfp20 said:


> Actually it might interest you to know that most people that hunt gain more pleasure from the 'one that got away' than they ever do from the kill of an animal. Just like with fishermen who are always after that elusive fish they don't want to catch and kill it just the pleasure of having won against a good foe, who goes on to live another day.
> 
> Don't tarr everyone with the bloodthirsty brush they really are few and far between and most are ashamed of the ones whose only interest is the quantity they kill.


If this were true, why hunt live prey at all? Why not drag hunt?


----------



## Amethyst

Spellweaver said:


> I would assume this. I have said on here before that I truly cannot understand the mentality of anyone who can willingly do something - and who can actually enjoy doing something - that will end in an animal being ripped to shreds by a pack of dogs. In my opinion, anyone who has that sort of mentality has to enjoy killing, and if someone enjoys killing then who knows where they will stop?


*shudders* :crying:


----------



## Guest

Amy-manycats said:


> True that is more humane but the fox would still be panic stricken being trapped in a cage,. Foxes are smart they would need luring in, there is potential to catch other animals in the traps badgers etc after. They would need checking V regularly for it to be humane. If checked regularly the smell of human would be overwhelming to a country fox and so it would be suspicious and not take the bait.
> 
> I do encourage the ideas of making it more humane.
> 
> There is a whole economic debate too. Not getting away from the fact that you would have to pay someone to trap on your land, and if it was on someone elses land but affecting your stock who would pay for that?
> 
> The kills I have seen they are VERY quick, that cannot be under estimated, anyone who thinks it is prolonged has never seen it. (refering to the ratting debate where somone thought it was ok to use a terrier to rat as it was quick )


I said ratting was quick. I also stated a post or two back that I was neither here nor there on the hunting debate as i didnt know enough about it. I also balanced my point saying rats and foxes are both equal in terms of being pests, in response to the point that ratting is ok as they are "dirty". So dont roll your eyes pls


----------



## Amy-manycats

Sorry that was meant to read as if ratting is quick (agreed) but so is the fox kill, meaning what I have seen was very quick. I wasn't meant to imply ratting is not quick or wrong, I just cannot see the difference in the kill aspect of it


----------



## Natik

Amy-manycats said:


> Sorry that was meant to read as if ratting is quick (agreed) but so is the fox kill, meaning what I have seen was very quick. I wasn't meant to imply ratting is not quick or wrong, I just cannot see the difference in the kill aspect of it


the difference is one dies with only ONE QUICK bite the other dies by having parts of its body torn apart by several dogs while still alive feeling all the pain.


----------



## Spellweaver

Waterlily said:


> I couldnt give a shitt about class, or any other excuse for inflicting fear and pain on an innocent animal just for fun or sport. Bloody inhumane and the act of spoilt brats.





Natik said:


> I am against fox hunting and hope the ban will never be lifted.
> Chasing an scared animal for pleasure and allowing it to get ripped apart is not a activity i could ever enjoy.
> So many poor excuses people come up with to justify such a disgusting sport


Wanted to give you both rep for this, but it won't let me cos I've used up my quota!


----------



## hawksport

Amy-manycats said:


> True that is more humane but the fox would still be panic stricken being trapped in a cage,. Foxes are smart they would need luring in, there is potential to catch other animals in the traps badgers etc after. They would need checking V regularly for it to be humane. If checked regularly the smell of human would be overwhelming to a country fox and so it would be suspicious and not take the bait.


Anyone know how many foxes are drawn out with terriers the night before a hunt and either have their earths stopped up or are caged overnight to be released the following day. If it were pest control they would be shot there and then



Amy-manycats said:


> There is a whole economic debate too. Not getting away from the fact that you would have to pay someone to trap on your land, and if it was on someone elses land but affecting your stock who would pay for that?


Terrier men are always looking for land to work free of charge



Amy-manycats said:


> The kills I have seen they are VERY quick, that cannot be under estimated, anyone who thinks it is prolonged has never seen it. (refering to the ratting debate where somone thought it was ok to use a terrier to rat as it was quick )


The actual kill may be quick but the chase isn't


----------



## Amy-manycats

Not really so, the hounds, as soon as they have hold of the fox are killing it, it is in their instinct. They have not chased it for a game of tug. They do tear it apart but that is because they are figting over the prize as any pet dogs might. It is not the main method of kill. 

I will except there may be exceptions to this but they wouldn't be good hounds it that were the case just the same as in ratting if the dog doesn't get hold of the rat properly. They are exceptions rather than the rule though.


----------



## Amy-manycats

Hawksport I do agree with most of those points. But who paid the terriermen to flush the fox the night before. It is not right IMO to do that as it is not in the name if pest control BUT back to the economics. Terrier men would not be out there doing of their own good will would they? No one works for free in this country.

This is one of those things that is never black and white. I am now neither pro or anti hunt. They do some great work and really do alot to help the countryside as we know it today. BUT there are aspects I don't agree with either. 

I need to go and walk the dog etc now and do another family christmas day!


----------



## hawksport

Amy-manycats said:


> Hawksport I do agree with most of those points. But who paid the terriermen to flush the fox the night before. It is not right IMO to do that as it is not in the name if pest control BUT back to the economics. Terrier men would not be out there doing of their own good will would they? No one works for free in this country.
> 
> This is one of those things that is never black and white. I am now neither pro or anti hunt. They do some great work and really do alot to help the countryside as we know it today. BUT there are aspects I don't agree with either.
> 
> I need to go and walk the dog etc now and do another family christmas day!


Yes they will work for free just as I do


----------



## JANICE199

*I find it rather ironic that a society that was up in arms over a woman putting a cat in a whellie bin can then turn around and say its fine for such a barbaric sport as fox hunting is ok.*


----------



## Spellweaver

JANICE199 said:


> *I find it rather ironic that a society that was up in arms over a woman putting a cat in a whellie bin can then turn around and say its fine for such a barbaric sport as fox hunting is ok.*


Makes the mind boggle, doesn't it hun? :eek6:

Perhaps the woman should have worn a red coat and ridden a horse while she put the cat in the bin - then she could have argued in her defence that she was only being traditional so the cruelty was OK :crazy: - and she'd have got off if the judge was a pro-hunter :lol:


----------



## Happy Paws2

I would have no problem with hunting with hounds, if one of the hunters would allow themselves to be rubbered over them "fox perfume", and then run in front of the hounds and see what happens when the hounds catch them up. If they are still OK at the end of the hunt, may change my mind.


----------



## dobermummy

Happy Paws said:


> I would have no problem with hunting with hounds, if *one of the hunters would allow themselves to be rubbered over them "fox perfume", and then run in front of the hounds and see what happens when the hounds catch them up.* If they are still OK at the end of the hunt, may change my mind.


now that is something i would like to watch (the bit in bold) :thumbup:


----------



## shoreset

Amy-manycats said:


> The kills I have seen they are VERY quick, that cannot be under estimated, anyone who thinks it is prolonged has never seen it. (refering to the ratting debate where somone thought it was ok to use a terrier to rat as it was quick )


I don't mind hunting, hell i've shot animals myself (eg rabbits for food for other animals and only ever shot if i had a clear kill shot).

but i dont like the idea of a fox been chased by the dogs then ripped to shreds (and if they manage to get away they not usually permitted to live which is very unfair). I have seen the hounds kill a fox, and while it may have been "quick", it was not instant, the fox will have been terrified before been killed and then in agony as it died. I have never seen a terrier actually ratting, but i have seen my friends JR kill a rat in the stable, one "pounce" and the rat was dead instantly so I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the rat has a much pleasanter experience of death than the fox does


----------



## piggybaker

piggybaker said:


> In what respect.. I believe rats are not clean animals,, not my pet ones,,, ratting terriers enjoy the chase,, but to be perfectly honest I know not alot on that subject ,, but then you could go on to say what about ferreting for rabbits,, but you can eat a rabbit?


my response to Tarir



Savahl said:


> Rats are pests, as foxes are pests. Just in a different manner. Just rats are less cute. Is a dog chasing and killing a rat any different to the foxhound chasing and killing a fox.... I would say there is a difference. Not because of the animal in itself (both are pests), but because a terrier will kill the rat swiftly. I doubt it is so quick for the hounds to kill a fox.


I was just trying to work out in what way this is on the same lines as fox hunting,,,, the terrier is sent in and as has been said it is really quick and it is a hunt one on one not a sport,,it is a battle of wits between to living things the rat is a fiesty little bugger.

My yorkie once caught a rat and I was shocked at how quickly it was all over, before i could intervine the rat was dead.

sorry just felt I needed to sort that out .


----------



## Guest

shoreset said:


> I don't mind hunting, hell i've shot animals myself (eg rabbits for food for other animals and only ever shot if i had a clear kill shot).
> 
> but i dont like the idea of a fox been chased by the dogs then ripped to shreds (and if they manage to get away they not usually permitted to live which is very unfair). I have seen the hounds kill a fox, and while it may have been "quick", it was not instant, the fox will have been terrified before been killed and then in agony as it died. I have never seen a terrier actually ratting, but i have seen my friends JR kill a rat in the stable, one "pounce" and the rat was dead instantly so I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the rat has a much pleasanter experience of death than the fox does


It does depend on where the terrier manages to catch the rat, if it is around the neck area then death is almost instant, but many will be caught on the rump.


----------



## snoopydo

mumof6 said:


> now that is something i would like to watch (the bit in bold) :thumbup:


Thats Something that I would love to see too.

To me...Anyone who 'Enjoys' the act of a 'Sport' where the Final 'Triumph' is a Dead Animal is Sick Beyond Belief.

I Can't get my head around a Government who is against Sick individuals killing/torturing pets/Animals...... i.e In law if you Tortured and killed your pet or another animal you can be arrested against the Animal Act law.

BUT These people are ALLOWED To kill and be applauded for it.

Double Sick standards or what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savahl 
Rats are pests, as foxes are pests. Just in a different manner. Just rats are less cute. Is a dog chasing and killing a rat any different to the foxhound chasing and killing a fox.... I would say there is a difference. Not because of the animal in itself (both are pests), but because a terrier will kill the rat swiftly. I doubt it is so quick for the hounds to kill a fox.

Who actually Determines which animals are PESTS anyway? I know lots of people who are pests but we can't have a mass cull on them......


----------



## Guest

piggybaker said:


> In what respect.. I believe rats are not clean animals,, not my pet ones,,, ratting terriers enjoy the chase,, but to be perfectly honest I know not alot on that subject ,, but then you could go on to say what about ferreting for rabbits,, but you can eat a rabbit?


Ferreting is hard work, but I think that in certain circumstances it can be a very cruel sport. It's like a lot of animal related things in life. It does depend so much on the nature of the particular human/humans involved


----------



## piggybaker

rona said:


> Ferreting is hard work, but I think that in certain circumstances it can be a very cruel sport. It's like a lot of animal related things in life. It does depend so much on the nature of the particular human/humans involved


Did you ver see that program about counrty life and they had a father and son who had a business and they used a ferret and a net over the rabbits barrow and whent he rabbit shot out because of the ferret in ran into the net they got it and broke its net straight away,, I was aware the ferret was used to get the rabbit i thought they where used to flush them out,, but again it is only what i saw on the program that i am commenting on.


----------



## snoopydo

OK, A Question...........Why then is Ferreting allowed?............Fox Hunting allowed?.........Rating with erriers Allowed? Fishing is Allowed?

BUT Badger Baiting is Against The Law?....


WHY can't ALL Animals have the SAME Rights to live in their own enviroment without the worry of 'people' coming along and Randomly murdering for their own ''pleasure''?


----------



## Guest

piggybaker said:


> Did you ver see that program about counrty life and they had a father and son who had a business and they used a ferret and a net over the rabbits barrow and whent he rabbit shot out because of the ferret in ran into the net they got it and broke its net straight away,, I was aware the ferret was used to get the rabbit i thought they where used to flush them out,, but again it is only what i saw on the program that i am commenting on.


I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them 
What can happen is quite distressing.


----------



## piggybaker

snoopydo said:


> OK, A Question...........Why then is Ferreting allowed?............Fox Hunting allowed?.........Rating with erriers Allowed? Fishing is Allowed?
> 
> BUT Badger Baiting is Against The Law?....
> 
> WHY can't ALL Animals have the SAME Rights to live in their own enviroment without the worry of 'people' coming along and Randomly murdering for their own ''pleasure''?


I do have a point of vew on this but I am not sure I know how to put it across LOL its all in my head but LOL not sure how to word it.


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> OK, A Question...........Why then is Ferreting allowed?............Fox Hunting allowed?.........Rating with erriers Allowed? Fishing is Allowed?
> 
> BUT Badger Baiting is Against The Law?....
> 
> WHY can't ALL Animals have the SAME Rights to live in their own enviroment without the worry of 'people' coming along and Randomly murdering for their own ''pleasure''?


Not sure about this question. Does this include farm animals?


----------



## Starlite

Staysee said:


> Of course, cos a fox will kill everything it comes across.
> 
> A fox isnt as cruel as human beings.


eh? One statement is the complete opposite of the other :confused1:

Foxes CAN be just as cruel, ive seen them wipe out a full henhouse, every throat and take one. How is that not cruel to kill EVERYTHING before leaving?
My cat is terribly cruel but people seem to ignore this 
Ive watched cats play with their prey for ages before either killing it or the wee thing dies of terror, whats the difference?



snoopydo said:


> OK, A Question...........Why then is Ferreting allowed?............Fox Hunting allowed?.........Rating with erriers Allowed? Fishing is Allowed?
> 
> BUT Badger Baiting is Against The Law?....
> 
> WHY can't ALL Animals have the SAME Rights to live in their own enviroment without the worry of 'people' coming along and Randomly murdering for their own ''pleasure''?


The simple fact is, if land and animals werent "maintained", then animals would suffer (starvation etc) and so would humans (disease etc. IF we are the dominant species i think we have to try and help keep a balance.

The fact all of the above barr badger baiting is allowed is that all the other animals are classed as pests and vermin. They are animals which reak havoc amongst human populations and spread disease so they can be legally hunted and shot.

Speaking as someone who has only ever hunted "vermin" and seen terriers kill rats in stables/farms i dont find it cruel at all. A clean shot, the animals gone. Its lived its wild life with no cages, no cruelty and has run free before its ended up in my pot :thumbup:


----------



## snoopydo

piggybaker said:


> I do have a point of vew on this but I am not sure I know how to put it across LOL its all in my head but LOL not sure how to word it.


I've got the same prob.............What I'm trying to say is WHY is it Legal to Hunt some Animals...........But Not others Who actually determines the difference?


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> Not sure about this question. Does this include farm animals?


The Question is what I Wrote....Why is it ok to hunt some animals but not others...........Why do some have more rights than others...Surely ALL animals should have the Same protection....I never mentioned Farm Animals.


----------



## piggybaker

snoopydo said:


> I've got the same prob.............What I'm trying to say is WHY is it Legal to Hunt some Animals...........But Not others Who actually determines the difference?


I expect someone who has sat behind a desk most of there life and have no life skills at all in town nor country but thinks that certain things sound good..


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
> Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them
> What can happen is quite distressing.


Distressing I think is an understatement to the animal involved.

Can I ask What Did you get out of doing this....Did you actually enjoy it?

I'm not having a go.. It's a Genuine Question.


----------



## LostGirl

rona said:


> I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
> Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them
> What can happen is quite distressing.


oh used to do ferreting (for food for is ferrets mainly) he said that he lost a ferret one year to a massive buck who was trying to protect himself the ferrect died from the damage the buck did. He also had many rabbits die from heart attacks e.t.c whilst in the burrows.

its not easy from what he said they tended to go for mxy (sp) burrows if they could.

Personally i see no enjoyment in any blood sport or anything involving an animal being killed. im not a fan of fishing either. i dont understand people getting enjoyment from a animals death it isnt something i could do myself

I dont mind so much for food reasons i.e ferreting, fishing, pheasent shooting e.t.c as the do thing atleast the animal has died for something not just for blood lust


----------



## LostGirl

snoopydo said:


> Distressing I think is an understatement to the animal involved.
> 
> Can I ask What Did you get out of doing this....Did you actually enjoy it?
> 
> I'm not having a go.. It's a Genuine Question.


from my oh he did enjoy it, he did at one point wanted to teach the dogs abit about rabbiting (mainly flushing e.t.c) but i wouldnt let him as they are pets and plus we have cats and small animals i didnt want everything being seen as prey (being half malamute!)

he also misses it and if he ever had ferrets again he would do it again, he had permission from the dockyard here to go on to the land to try and keeo rabbit numbers down


----------



## Happy Paws2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savahl 
Who actually Determines which animals are *PESTS *anyway? I know lots of people who are pests but we can't have a mass cull on them......[/QUOTE]

*I think any type of creature, we don't like or it doesn't fit into our life style becomes a PEST.
*


----------



## OllieBob

Badgers became protected to stop people digging them up as bait for dog fights. Now that is cruel as the poor animal has no chance of survival. In hunting the stronger animals with better genetics survive whilst the poorer specimens will be caught. Survival of the fittest is the way of the world as mother nature dictates. Far more foxes are poisoned, trapped or shot. The first 2 methods are frequently used and lead to a terrible death. If the numbers are not kept in check then there would be too many and that would lead to more conflict. Urban foxes are migrants from the countryside, when food was in short supply it was either starve or adapt to urban scavenging. 
Fox hunting is more about tradition. Hunters (horses) were bred to be able to complete a cross country course following the hunt, just as racehorses were bred to race. The dogs have been specially bred to hunt, just like many other canids that in the wild hunt to survive. Wolves will chase down prey over many days until it is exhausted and can be killed. Canines are hunters it is the nature of the beast as they say. Man has just honed that instinct to his advantage. We all are what nature made us to be over millenia not a generation or two, to deny that is to deny our genetic make up and our ancestors (both human and animal).


----------



## hawksport

Everyone on here practises some sort of pest control


----------



## snoopydo

I Don't


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
> Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them
> What can happen is quite distressing.


By saying "quite distressing" I guess you mean the rabbits suffered before they died, must be pure terror for a rabbit having a ferret trying to get you 

You indicate a quick kill was the "ideal scenario" which suggests the above was the usual? Yet you spent many years ferreting? I can personally think of better ways to spend my time ... Did it never occur to you that ferreting was cruel? *shudders*


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> Everyone on here practises some sort of pest control


Please don't tell me you are going to equate killing a fly with a fox or deer :lol:

I have a feeling you might be  :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Happy Paws2

OllieBob said:


> Badgers became protected to stop people digging them up as bait for dog fights. Now that is cruel as the poor animal has no chance of survival. In hunting the stronger animals with better genetics survive whilst the poorer specimens will be caught. Survival of the fittest is the way of the world as mother nature dictates. Far more foxes are poisoned, trapped or shot. The first 2 methods are frequently used and lead to a terrible death.* the numbers are not kept in check then there would be too many *and that would leIf ad to more conflict. Urban foxes are migrants from the countryside, when food was in short supply it was either starve or adapt to urban scavenging.
> Fox hunting is more about tradition. Hunters (horses) were bred to be able to complete a cross country course following the hunt, just as racehorses were bred to race. The dogs have been specially bred to hunt, just like many other canids that in the wild hunt to survive. Wolves will chase down prey over many days until it is exhausted and can be killed. Canines are hunters it is the nature of the beast as they say. Man has just honed that instinct to his advantage. We all are what nature made us to be over millenia not a generation or two, to deny that is to deny our genetic make up and our ancestors (both human and animal).


If there are to many of any animal it's **** sapiens, Killers and Destroyers


----------



## Guest

I have ferreted some rats once....I can honestly say that there was no other way and that the rats died fast. I couldnt do it again though and it was only because we tried everything else.


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> By saying "quite distressing" I guess you mean the rabbits suffered before they died, must be pure terror for a rabbit having a ferret trying to get you
> 
> You indicate a quick kill was the "ideal scenario" which suggests the above was the usual? Yet you spent many years ferreting? I can personally think of better ways to spend my time ... Did it never occur to you that ferreting was cruel? *shudders*


Amethyst........I Also commented on this ........Not Yet had a reply....

***********************************************************************
Originally Posted by rona 
I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them 
What can happen is quite distressing.

***********************************************************************

MY REPLY........................

Distressing I think is an understatement to the animal involved.

Can I ask What Did you get out of doing this....Did you actually enjoy it?

I'm not having a go.. It's a Genuine Question.
__________________

What is the *'ideal scenario'* For a Rabbit to be Dragged out of it's Burrow By a Ferret?  From which this Scenario is purposely created by a Person.....


----------



## bullet

hawksport said:


> Everyone on here practises some sort of pest control


Yeh, i never invite the mother in law to any of our parties:lol:


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> Amethyst........I Also commented on this ........Not Yet had a reply....
> 
> ***********************************************************************
> Originally Posted by rona
> I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
> Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them
> What can happen is quite distressing.
> 
> ***********************************************************************
> 
> MY REPLY........................
> 
> Distressing I think is an understatement to the animal involved.
> 
> Can I ask What Did you get out of doing this....Did you actually enjoy it?
> 
> I'm not having a go.. It's a Genuine Question.
> __________________
> 
> What is the *'ideal scenario'* For a Rabbit to be Dragged out of it's Burrow By a Ferret?  From which this Scenario is purposely created by a Person.....


Sorry missed it, but great minds think alike eh 
Hopefully Rona will see one of our posts and hopefully reply is she wishes


----------



## Inca's Mum

I have to admit I'm also pro hunting, just the area I live and the lifestyle I'm in now considering we are turning into real country folks. I understand some people really disagree with it and totally respect their opinions but it's mine I guess. I love going along to the hunts, it's a great atmosphere and you meet some fantastic people there and it's also great going along on the quad following the hunt rather than in the car.

Plus it's a chance for some wonderful pictures:


----------



## snoopydo

I'm just interested to find out what people actually get out of doing this....

To me just the thought of it makes me feel physically sick. I could NEVER even think of doing something like it. 

I believe in Helping and protecting All Animals...I Honestly can't even begin to understand why someone would purposely go out to do it.

I find it all Completely Shocking and wrong.

And how can someone who ''loves Animals'' Even begin to think about going out to purposely Cause Terror, Agony and Death to them....

Animals are animals you can't just love some and then go out and kill others 

It's totally beyond by comprehension.


----------



## gorgeous

Inca's Mum said:


> I have to admit I'm also pro hunting, just the area I live and the lifestyle I'm in now considering we are turning into real country folks. I understand some people really disagree with it and totally respect their opinions but it's mine I guess. I love going along to the hunts, it's a great atmosphere and you meet some fantastic people there and it's also great going along on the quad following the hunt rather than in the car.


So glad you are having such a fab time, revelling in the great atmosphere and meeting such fantastic people! And I can feel the excitement of going along on the quad following the hunt rather than the car! Whoopee doo! :thumbup:


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> the dogs can still find something which is terrible and I actually ask my mum if we can leave when it happens because I can't stand thinking about it :frown:


That happens with general hunting too unfortunately. My friend had a caravan in the country where a camper had their tiny Yorkie killed by Foxhounds when they accidentally rampaged onto the site. Owner was so sickened by event she sold her caravan and left.

Last year we were staying in cottage when I heard hunting horn and baying, we took dogs immediately inside and I went out to see if they came past, so I could give them a "wave" :dita:


----------



## JANICE199

hawksport said:


> Everyone on here practises some sort of pest control


*Fox hunting is a one sided sport not pest control.*


----------



## snoopydo

gorgeous said:


> So glad you are having such a fab time, revelling in the great atmosphere and meeting such fantastic people! And I can feel the excitement of going along on the quad following the hunt rather than the car! Whoopee doo! :thumbup:


Your Forgetting the Lovely pics you get too

And the Torn up Dead Fox is the icing on the Cake ....

*********************************************

Amethyst What happened to your friends Dog was so Tragic......They NEVER tell you this side do they?


----------



## Inca's Mum

gorgeous said:


> So glad you are having such a fab time, revelling in the great atmosphere and meeting such fantastic people! And I can feel the excitement of going along on the quad following the hunt rather than the car! Whoopee doo! :thumbup:


I honestly find it fantastic, and I know lots of people have problems with it (even some of my 'city' friends can't understand why I go) but it's just a way of life for some people.



Amethyst said:


> That happens with general hunting too unfortunately. My friend had a caravan in the country where a camper had their tiny Yorkie killed by Foxhounds when they accidentally rampaged onto the site. Owner was so sickened by event she sold her caravan and left.
> 
> Last year we were staying in cottage when I heard hunting horn and baying, we took dogs immediately inside and I went out to see if they came past, so I could give them a "wave" :dita:


Well the hunt we follow (there is two groups but I shan't mention names and each one has it's distinct way of going about the day - one is very disorganised but the other is brilliant!) always requests permission from any land owners which they MAY end up going over in advance whether they can use the land before they come along and since the yard we use has lots of land which the hunt sometimes uses (great being on the doorstep!) we get discounted prices for days. I understand your opinion totally and that is horrible in regards to the foxhounds. There is usually a group of people on quads with their dogs, but they keep them in their jackets (!) until the Foxhounds are way away.


----------



## hawksport

snoopydo said:


> I Don't


You don't use any flea or worm treatments?


----------



## snoopydo

OMG I Do believe that that is slightly Different.


----------



## gorgeous

snoopydo said:


> Your Forgetting the Lovely pics you get too
> 
> And the Torn up Dead Fox is the icing on the Cake ....
> 
> *********************************************
> 
> Amethyst What happened to your friends Dog was so Tragic......They NEVER tell you this side do they?


Yes sounds an amazing past time....think I prefer to stay in and wash my hair


----------



## hawksport

snoopydo said:


> OMG I Do believe that that is slightly Different.


Because they meet your criteria for being a pest


----------



## Spellweaver

OllieBob said:


> Far more foxes are poisoned, trapped or shot. If the numbers are not kept in check then there would be too many and that would lead to more conflict.


Hmm. Well that blows to smithereens the arguments from pro-hunters that hunting is the only means of controlling the fox population.



OllieBob said:


> Fox hunting is more about tradition. Hunters (horses) were bred to be able to complete a cross country course following the hunt, just as racehorses were bred to race. The dogs have been specially bred to hunt,


Exactly. Tradition. And that is the crux of the matter. Pro-hunters want to keep up their traditions irrespective of the fact that animals are killed cruelly, and they manage to find all sorts of flimsy reasons to excuse their behaviour. I just cannot understand people on a pet forum condoning this. Think about it. If you apply the same logic (ie it's ok because it's traditional and that excuses its cruelty) to other areas of concern in the animal world, you would have to condone all sorts of things. For example, how many of you pro-hunters would be up in arms if a puppy farmer were to advocate that it's traditional to mate mongrel to mongrel willy-nilly, without health testing, because it always used to be done that way in the past? How many of you would condone dog fighting because it has always been a traditional "sport" in certain areas of the country? How many of you would condone beating a dog with a rolled up newspaper and rubbing its nose in its urine to stop it weeing in the house? It's always traditionally been done that way, after all.



OllieBob said:


> just like many other canids that in the wild hunt to survive. Wolves will chase down prey over many days until it is exhausted and can be killed. Canines are hunters it is the nature of the beast as they say. Man has just honed that instinct to his advantage. We all are what nature made us to be over millenia not a generation or two, to deny that is to deny our genetic make up and our ancestors (both human and animal).


Animals in the wild hunt to survive. Man hunts for perverted pleasure. BIG difference. To compare one to the other is a fallacy.


----------



## snoopydo

Not at all. But I Do think it's abit silly to Compare Dog Worms/Fleas in the same Context as an Animal.


----------



## hawksport

snoopydo said:


> Not at all. But I Do think it's abit silly to Compare Dog Worms/Fleas in the same Context as an Animal.


and it's a bit silly to say you need to control a pest but a farmer doesn't


----------



## snoopydo

Spellweaver said:


> Hmm. Well that blows to smithereens the arguments from pro-hunters that hunting is the only means of controlling the fox population.
> 
> Exactly. Tradition. And that is the crux of the matter. Pro-hunters want to keep up their traditions irrespective of the fact that animals are killed cruelly, and they manage to find all sorts of flimsy reasons to excuse their behaviour. I just cannot understand people on a pet forum condoning this. Think about it. If you apply the same logic (ie it's ok because it's traditional and that excuses its cruelty) to other areas of concern in the animal world, you would have to condone all sorts of things. For example, how many of you pro-hunters would be up in arms if a puppy farmer were to advocate that it's traditional to mate mongrel to mongrel willy-nilly, without health testing, because it always used to be done that way in the past? How many of you would condone dog fighting because it has always been a traditional "sport" in certain areas of the country? How many of you would condone beating a dog with a rolled up newspaper and rubbing its nose in its urine to stop it weeing in the house? It's always traditionally been done that way, after all.
> 
> ******************************************************
> 
> *Animals in the wild hunt to survive. Man hunts for perverted pleasure. BIG difference. To compare one to the other is a fallacy.*




Here Here Totally Agree :thumbup:


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> I have to admit I'm also pro hunting, just the area I live and the lifestyle I'm in now considering we are turning into real country folks. I understand some people really disagree with it and totally respect their opinions but it's mine I guess. I love going along to the hunts, it's a great atmosphere and you meet some fantastic people there and it's also great going along on the quad following the hunt rather than in the car.
> 
> Plus it's a chance for some wonderful pictures:


I live in the countryside and I take lots of photographs - but I don't feel I have to be part of something that entails an animal being chased to exhaustion and then being ripped to shreds to do it.


----------



## snoopydo

hawksport said:


> and it's a bit silly to say you need to control a pest but a farmer doesn't


It's a completely Different Matter ...


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> I'm just interested to find out what people actually get out of doing this....


Snoopydoo, I would love to know too, I have my suspicions and they aren't nice ones 

There is an element of society that has always and will sadly continue to enjoy suffering at some level of their being I guess. Why? Who really knows, an aspect of their shadow sides ....

Why did people enjoy bull baiting/dog fights/bear baiting/cock fighting, much the same reason people give for enjoying blood sports now probably :confused1:

The sport, social aspect, probably couldn't give pest control as a reason though ... Personally I find it quite disturbing that anyone can get their "kicks" in anything that involves killing animals for entertainment, leisure or whatever else it suits them to call it


----------



## Spellweaver

snoopydo said:


> I'm just interested to find out what people actually get out of doing this....
> 
> To me just the thought of it makes me feel physically sick. I could NEVER even think of doing something like it.
> 
> I believe in Helping and protecting All Animals...I Honestly can't even begin to understand why someone would purposely go out to do it.
> 
> I find it all Completely Shocking and wrong.
> 
> *And how can someone who ''loves Animals'' Even begin to think about going out to purposely Cause Terror, Agony and Death to them....*
> 
> Animals are animals you can't just love some and then go out and kill others
> 
> It's totally beyond by comprehension.


I agree totally - especially the bit in bold - and would send you some rep but I can't cos I've used it all!


----------



## Inca's Mum

I hope some of you understand that a lot of the time nothing is caught, and a little OT but what happens when you find an injured fox so take it to the RSPCA out of the good of your heart then it gets better and is released but is unable to fend for itself so gets attacked by the other foxes?


----------



## hawksport

snoopydo said:


> Who actually Determines which animals are PESTS anyway? I know lots of people who are pests but we can't have a mass cull on them......


It was an answer to this. 
You do, I do everyone does we just have different criteria


----------



## snoopydo

It's ok  Reps arn't important to me....I'm just trying to get my feelings across.


----------



## snoopydo

Inca's Mum said:


> I hope some of you understand that a lot of the time nothing is caught, and a little OT but what happens when you find an injured fox so take it to the RSPCA out of the good of your heart then it gets better and is released but is unable to fend for itself so gets attacked by the other foxes?


Whats that got to do with people Hunting then on purpose?


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> I hope some of you understand that a lot of the time nothing is caught,


Caught or not, you are still terrifying animals by chasing them all over the countryside. If gangs of hoodies went around on quad bikes chasing terrified pet dogs through a city centre, would you think that that was OK too? And if you don't, how can you condone hunting foxes? It's one and the same thing. (You can imagine the hoodies are dressed in red if that helps - more traditional )

And because a few escape, that makes it ok that the rest are caught and ripped to shreds, does it?


----------



## Inca's Mum

Spellweaver said:


> Caught or not, you are still terrifying animals by chasing them all over the countryside. If gangs of hoodies went around on quad bikes chasing terrified pet dogs through a city centre, would you think that that was OK too? And if you don't, how can you condone hunting foxes? It's one and the same thing. (You can imagine the hoodies are dressed in red if that helps - more traditional )
> 
> And because a few escape, that makes it ok that the rest are caught and ripped to shreds, does it?


When I said nothing is caught that is to mean nothing was ever found and chased across the fields.


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> When I said nothing is caught that is to mean nothing was ever found and chased across the fields.


Right - so you weren't hunting at all then? So what's the point? Why not just go for a ride?

And what about the times when foxes are found? You still haven't answered my post comparing your activity to hoodies chasing pet dogs properly.


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> When I said nothing is caught that is to mean nothing was ever found and chased across the fields.


Then what is the point of it? The hunters are wanting an outcome surely? You said so yourself that a few pages back that Hunters on a drag have admitted to you that they give chase if something gets in their way. That is surely why they do it? You can't tell me they just race across fields for the heck of it, Doesn't matter if they catch a fox or not... They are still out there scaring god knows what without a care or thought

I sit on the fence when it comes to hunting, being a country girl, growing up around farms I have seen the damage fox's can do, but I don't agree with them being chased to near exhaustion and ripped to shreds.


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> I sit on the fence when it comes to hunting, being a country girl, growing up around farms I have seen the damage fox's can do, but I don't agree with them being chased to near exhaustion and ripped to shreds.


Same here....

Tbh I think most "hunters" use it as a excuse to get thrills and have a drink.

I am a rider well was....I would just enjoy spending some time on the horse without scaring the crap out of a fox.


----------



## Inca's Mum

Spellweaver said:


> Right - so you weren't hunting at all then? So what's the point? Why not just go for a ride?
> 
> And what about the times when foxes are found? You still haven't answered my post comparing your activity to hoodies chasing pet dogs properly.


Yes we were still hunting but did not find anything.

I don't see why you all think that we all go along to see the fox getting ripped to threads, speaking as if we love to see animals murdered and 'ripped to pieces'. It is somewhat a social gathering for us, call us whatever you like but it is something that is just done. It is exciting and of course many think it inhumane to be killing foxes but it is way of life for us and how we've been brought up.


MissShelley said:


> Then what is the point of it? The hunters are wanting an outcome surely? You said so yourself that a few pages back that Hunters on a drag have admitted to you that they give chase if something gets in their way. That is surely why they do it? You can't tell me they just race across fields for the heck of it, Doesn't matter if they catch a fox or not... They are still out there scaring god knows what without a care or thought
> 
> I sit on the fence when it comes to hunting, being a country girl, growing up around farms I have seen the damage fox's can do, but I don't agree with them being chased to near exhaustion and ripped to shreds.


Yes of course they are wanting an outcome but sometimes do not get one! I didn't say about the drag hunters giving chase if something gets in their way. Racing across fields is the principle of it, it's the thrill of doing it and especially in a large group. Of course people going out hunting care and think about what they're doing, we're not stupid and don't have a clue what goes on in society but seems a lot of people don't know the ins and outs of hunting.

I totally understand everyone who is against hunting and their views and can see why they feel like that, but this is just how I see things I guess.

Now I'm going to head off before I get my own head ripped to pieces for having a view


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> Distressing I think is an understatement to the animal involved.
> 
> Can I ask What Did you get out of doing this....Did you actually enjoy it?
> 
> I'm not having a go.. It's a Genuine Question.


All country sports that I have been connected with have always been for the enjoyment of my dog.
I'm not blood thirsty at all and I feel physically sick when I have to kill anything but my dog seems to override most negatives


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> Yes of course they are wanting an outcome but sometimes do not get one! I didn't say about the drag hunters giving chase if something gets in their way. *Racing across fields is the principle of it, it's the thrill of doing it and especially in a large group*. Of course people going out hunting care and think about what they're doing, *we're not stupid and don't have a clue what goes on in society but seems a lot of people don't know the ins and outs of hunting.*
> 
> I totally understand everyone who is against hunting and their views and can see why they feel like that, but this is just how I see things I guess.
> 
> Now I'm going to head off before I get my own head ripped to pieces for having a view


It just seems pointless, hunting with hounds whether it's for gain or otherwise is completey outdated and has no place in todays society. And please, ive grown up in the country, i'm well versed on the country ways and traditions, please don't imply I have no clue!  I've seen the hunts with my own eyes, each autumn and every boxing day we'd be up the Colonels house where my Dad kept his turkeys, to watch the hunt. Yep, magnificent looking to a 6 year old eyes, until you realise what their puropse it... Chasing an outnumbered fox and having it ripped to shreds can ever be justified, sorry


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> It just seems pointless, hunting with hounds whether it's for gain or otherwise is completey outdated and has no place in todays society. And please, ive grown up in the country, i'm well versed on the country ways and traditions, please don't imply I have no clue!  I've seen the hunts with my own eyes, each autumn and every boxing day we'd be up the Colonels house where my Dad kept his turkeys, to watch the hunt. Yep, magnificent looking to a 6 year old eyes, until you realise what their puropse it... Chasing and outnumbered fox and having it ripped to shreds can ever be justified, sorry


I guess there is never going to be a right or wrong when it comes to many questions including this....


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> Amethyst........I Also commented on this ........Not Yet had a reply....
> 
> ***********************************************************************
> Originally Posted by rona
> I spent many years ferreting and I can assure you that what you saw was the ideal scenario.
> Many rabbits lie up in their burrows with the ferrets trying to get them
> What can happen is quite distressing.
> 
> ***********************************************************************
> 
> MY REPLY........................
> 
> Distressing I think is an understatement to the animal involved.
> 
> Can I ask What Did you get out of doing this....Did you actually enjoy it?
> 
> I'm not having a go.. It's a Genuine Question.
> __________________
> 
> What is the *'ideal scenario'* For a Rabbit to be Dragged out of it's Burrow By a Ferret?  From which this Scenario is purposely created by a Person.....





Amethyst said:


> Sorry missed it, but great minds think alike eh
> Hopefully Rona will see one of our posts and hopefully reply is she wishes


Really sorry that I had to go out and see to my sick mother and friend and couldn't answer instantly


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> All country sports that I have been connected with have always been for the enjoyment of my dog.
> I'm not blood thirsty at all and I feel physically sick when I have to kill anything but my dog seems to override most negatives


I've heard it all now :lol:

This can't be serious post .... Can it :scared:


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> I'm just interested to find out what people actually get out of doing this....
> 
> To me just the thought of it makes me feel physically sick. I could NEVER even think of doing something like it.
> 
> I believe in Helping and protecting All Animals...I Honestly can't even begin to understand why someone would purposely go out to do it.
> 
> I find it all Completely Shocking and wrong.
> 
> And how can someone who ''loves Animals'' Even begin to think about going out to purposely Cause Terror, Agony and Death to them....
> 
> Animals are animals you can't just love some and then go out and kill others
> 
> It's totally beyond by comprehension.


I've got the death of many piglets on my hands to, worked on a pig farm for many years.
Saw 1000s of pigs go for slaughter to provide food for humans. Seen men kicking them to death, smacking them over the head etc etc.
I stopped much cruelty in the 17 years I worked with them but I did have to occassionally kill to prevent further suffering


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I've heard it all now :lol:
> 
> This can't be serious post .... Can it :scared:


Yep, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it unbelievable


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Amethyst said:


> I've heard it all now :lol:
> 
> This can't be serious post .... Can it :scared:


*I was thinking the same thing myself. *


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> I've got the death of many piglets on my hands to, worked on a pig farm for many years.
> Saw 1000s of pigs go for slaughter to provide food for humans. Seen men kicking them to death, smacking them over the head etc etc.
> I stopped much cruelty in the 17 years I worked with them but I did have to occassionally kill to prevent further suffering


It seems that you may have become desensitised to animal suffering, which is tragic 
But explains much ..


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> Yep, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it unbelievable


*I think most intelligent, compassionate people understand cruelty perfectly well.*


----------



## Amethyst

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I was thinking the same thing myself. *


I have a horrible feeling it WAS serious ...


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> It seems that you may have become desensitised to animal suffering, which is tragic
> But explains much ..





FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I think most intelligent, compassionate people understand cruelty perfectly well.*


God help us if you believe I'm cruel :lol: :lol:


----------



## JJAK

rona said:


> All country sports that I have been connected with have always been for the enjoyment of my dog.


I can completely see your point of view. 
Im pro hunting (as iv already said) my horse gets alot of enjoyment from being out hunting, 1) its a change of routine for her and 2) its a chance for her to be around other horses and in a different senario to her usual day to day work.


----------



## Tapir

snoopydo said:


> What is the *'ideal scenario'* For a Rabbit to be Dragged out of it's Burrow By a Ferret?


This is exactly the issue! People DON'T know or understand what happens... they just get what the media tell them, what rent-a-mob antis tell them and not actual facts.

Not many ferrets catch the rabbit as large hobs are not used. they tend to be stronger, kill the rabbit and lay up.

Smaller jills are usually used which simply flush the rabbit out the burrow into the net where it's kneck is broken straight away.
Maybe your should save the eye rolls for things you fully know about.


----------



## xxwelshcrazyxx

I am TOTALLY against Fox Hunts, I think it is very cruel. The dogs get into such a frenzie at the last minute and rip that fox to death. If the fox population need to be sorted then do it humainly..............not letting it be ripped to death. And if the Hunters want fun let them put a horseman out and hour before the hunt, dragging a rag of some sort with a scent of ANYTHING that a dog would follow other than the scent of another animal, then let the hunt begin, the fox dont get ripped apart and the dogs themselves get the chase they love and brought up to do. NO animal should be put to this type of death, it is babaric and CRUEL. Yes fox's hunt other animals to feed etc but that does not mean that Hunter have to do it the way they do it.
I am not saying anymore on this........IT IS DISGUSTING. Please dont come back and say "Oh but you eat beef, chicken, pork etc". yes I do but it wasnt chased by a pack of dogs and ripped to death.


----------



## Amethyst

The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable  Oscar Wilde

Well said Oscar :thumbup:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> God help us if you believe I'm cruel :lol: :lol:


*It would stand to reason obviously as im against blood sports that i and most others would consider it cruel. 
*



JJAK said:


> I can completely see your point of view.
> Im pro hunting (as iv already said) my horse gets alot of enjoyment from being out hunting, 1) its a change of routine for her and 2) its a chance for her to be around other horses and in a different senario to her usual day to day work.


*Surely no animal needs to suffer or be killed for you to enjoy the pleasure of horse riding, socialising, etc?*


----------



## Inca's Mum

rona said:


> Yep, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it unbelievable


Good response Rona.



JJAK said:


> I can completely see your point of view.
> Im pro hunting (as iv already said) my horse gets alot of enjoyment from being out hunting, 1) its a change of routine for her and 2) its a chance for her to be around other horses and in a different senario to her usual day to day work.


Totally understand this, I think it's a big attraction for a lot of people on our yard for why they go to the hunts.


----------



## Tapir

"I believe in Helping and protecting All Animals"



snoopydo said:


> OMG I Do believe that that is slightly Different.


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Surely no animal needs to suffer or be killed for you to enjoy the pleasure of horse riding, socialising, etc?*


In my many years of hunting i have only personally seen one fox caught and killed. 
Therefore im not out there for the 'thrill of the kill'
At what other point in the 'horse riding calender' is there time for a group of that many people who have one solid thing in common to get together and enjoy each others company?....none, the rest fo them are all 'individual sports'


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> I can completely see your point of view.
> Im pro hunting (as iv already said) my horse gets alot of enjoyment from being out hunting, 1) its a change of routine for her and 2) its a chance for her to be around other horses and in a different senario to her usual day to day work.


It's sad to see people jutifying their behaviour by using their animals as an excuse :frown2:


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> It's sad to see people jutifying their behaviour by using their animals as an excuse :frown2:


Its isnt an excuse at all. 
Excuses are used for covering things up...
Iv got nothing to cover up, i hunt for many reasons, my horse being one of them.


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *It would stand to reason obviously as im against blood sports that i and most others would consider it cruel.
> *


It being believed to be cruel (as opposed to me being cruel) I have no problem with and actually to certain extent agree with you. 
I would not do it now but I would still put a animal out of it's suffering if it was injured or ill. This to makes me feel sick even though I know it's in the animals best interest


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> It's sad to see people jutifying their behaviour by using their animals as an excuse :frown2:


It's not an excuse?


----------



## OllieBob

Spellweaver said:


> How many of you would condone beating a dog with a rolled up newspaper and rubbing its nose in its urine to stop it weeing in the house? It's always traditionally been done that way, after all.


Wrong this is NOT the traditional way to train. When have you seen a shepherd carrying a rolled up newspaper? Dogs have always worked for food based rewards, the ones that 'payed' the best used to get the best from their dogs. Even my 80+yr old parents knew this which is why ours dogs were trained using food. 
How do those that are anti killing view farm collies doing pest control? The dogs always viewed it as sport and would lie in wait until they located the rat nests then they would dig them out and kill all the young. They were never taught to do this it was pure instinct. Between the cats and the dogs there were very few rodents on the farm.


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> God help us if you believe I'm cruel :lol: :lol:


We are basing it simply on what you have posted ...


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> In my many years of hunting i have only personally seen one fox caught and killed.
> Therefore im not out there for the 'thrill of the kill'
> At what other point in the 'horse riding calender' is there time for a group of that many people who have one solid thing in common to get together and enjoy each others company?....none, the rest fo them are all 'individual sports'


*Well maybe it's time those in favour of blood sports starting rearranging their calendars or accept the fact that it is rightfully a banned and unnacceptable activity that should be resigned to the history books. NO animal should die just so others can derive pleasure from it. No-one needs to hunt to continue their perfectly harmless thrill of horse riding or socialising.*


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> It's not an excuse?


It certainly sounds that way, excuse, justification, take your pick ...


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Well maybe it's time those in favour of blood sports starting rearranging their calendars or accept the fact that it is rightfully a banned and unnacceptable activity that should be resigned to the history books. NO animal should die just so others can derive pleasure from it. No-one needs to hunt to continue their perfectly harmless thrill of horse riding or socialising.*


But most are now drag hunts and they are still being persecuted


----------



## gorgeous

Perhaps those that find it a place to socialise could broaden their horizons so to speak and find other outlets to hang out with some peeps?


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> It being believed to be cruel (as opposed to me being cruel) I have no problem with and actually to certain extent agree with you.
> I would not do it now but I would still put a animal out of it's suffering if it was injured or ill. This to makes me feel sick even though I know it's in the animals best interest


*Any compassionate, decent person would want an animal put out of its suffering if it was ill/injured i totally agree. But with regards to hunting, they are the reason for the animal suffering....so completely different.*


----------



## Inca's Mum

gorgeous said:


> Perhaps those that find it a place to socialise could broaden their horizons so to speak and find other outlets to hang out with some peeps?


Which we do at all the summer shows


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Well maybe it's time those in favour of blood sports starting rearranging their calendars or accept the fact that it is rightfully a banned and unnacceptable activity that should be resigned to the history books. NO animal should die just so others can derive pleasure from it. No-one needs to hunt to continue their perfectly harmless thrill of horse riding or socialising.*


At what point have any of us pro hunters said we get pleasure from it?
Weve not, so there you go jumping to conclusions!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> But most are now drag hunts and they are still being persecuted


*Rona, im sure you must know as the rest of us do, DRAG hunting is often the excuse used to carry on with the real thing. Oops a fox accidently got in our way and we couldn't stop the dogs. *


----------



## Tapir

rona said:


> But most are now drag hunts and they are still being persecuted


Exactly....I fail to see why we should re-arrange our calendars if WE ARE WELL WITHIN THE LAW???


----------



## Inca's Mum

JJAK said:


> At what point have any of us pro hunters said we get pleasure from it?
> Weve not, so there you go jumping to conclusions!


Precisely, not like we all get up and head to a hunt filled with excitement of seeing an animal ripped to pieces. In all honesty, I've never seen a fox killed at the hunt so it's not like we get to see it actually happening, we just know when a scent has been found because of how the hounds react.



FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Rona, im sure you must know as the rest of us do, DRAG hunting is often the excuse used to carry on with the real thing. Oops a fox accidently got in our way and we couldn't stop the dogs. *


Well they can't stop the dogs to be perfectly honest when it's what they've been trained to do


----------



## Tapir

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Rona, im sure you must know as the rest of us do, DRAG hunting is often the excuse used to carry on with the real thing. Oops a fox accidently got in our way and we couldn't stop the dogs. *


so how many of these DH have you been on where this has happened then?

There's always that many protestors following getting in the way anyway, if a fox was killed it would instantly be reported and the hunter prosecuted.

There has been hardly any prosectutions under the Hunting act since it came into play.

Hunters are playing ball - get off their backs.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> At what point have any of us pro hunters said we get pleasure from it?
> Weve not, so there you go jumping to conclusions!


*What other reason could there possibly be for chasing an animal to exhaustion and then having it be ripped apart by hounds? Just because you say you have only witnessed one kill, the purpose of each hunt is the hoping of that outcome.*


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Rona, im sure you must know as the rest of us do, DRAG hunting is often the excuse used to carry on with the real thing. Oops a fox accidently got in our way and we couldn't stop the dogs. *


Think of it like this....
You try calling a group of lions off a zebra...
its isnt going to happen!


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> Well they can't stop the dogs to be perfectly honest when it's what they've been trained to do


Nice to hear how well controlled (not) the hounds are then 
No wonder it's not unknown for them to wreak havoc and kill much loved pets ...


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> Precisely, not like we all get up and head to a hunt filled with excitement of seeing an animal ripped to pieces. In all honesty, *I've never seen a fox killed at the hunt so it's not like we get to see it actually happening,* we just know when a scent has been found because of how the hounds react.


How can you fully support that if you've never seen it? Maybe if you did then you may well change your mind about the practice you support....



Inca's Mum said:


> Well they can't stop the dogs to be perfectly honest when it's what they've been trained to do


Can't or won't?  And why even use the dogs if it's only a drag?


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> Nice to hear how well controlled (not) the hounds are then
> No wonder it's not unknown for them to wreak havoc and kill much loved pets ...


The hounds are extremely well trained, but they are working animals and it is how they WORK.


MissShelley said:


> How can you fully support that if you've never seen it? Maybe if you did then you may well change your mind about the practice you support....
> 
> Can't or won't?


I've seen hunts but it's not as if the hounds kill them right by our feet! It usually happens in wooded areas.

And re the can't or won't, think what you like because no matter what I say your opinion won't change!


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> I don't see why you all think that we all go along to see the fox getting ripped to threads, speaking as if we love to see animals murdered and 'ripped to pieces'. It is somewhat a social gathering for us, call us whatever you like but it is something that is just done.


Oh, so you are there for the social gathering - right - so I suppose that makes it all ok then and the fact that an animal is chased to exhaustion and then ripped to shreds is just something that happens and is not your fault at all, even though you are part of the hunt?



Inca's Mum said:


> It is exciting and of course many think it inhumane to be killing foxes but it is way of life for us and how we've been brought up.


Now you are at last telling the truth. So you do find it exciting that an animal is ripped to shreds. Saying it's just a way of life, just the way you've been brought up, is nothing more than an excuse. You are an intelligent young person and you usually present such a sensible view of most things, which is why I can't understand your take on this at all. You are well able to use your own mind to decide what is barbaric and what is not. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that you would be totally against the kind of things you are condoning if they were presented just a little differently (eg hoodies on quad bikes chasing pet dogs). How about people from less salubrious backgrounds who have been brought up to accept dog fighting as a way of life? By your standards, that would make their breeding fighting dogs and attending dog fights ok - it is, after all, a way of life for them and how they've been brought up - but I dare lay money on it that you think dog fighting is wrong and that you would expect such people to throw off the trappings of their backgrounds and to to realise the error of their ways. Dog fighting is no different, no more barbaric than fox hunting - in fact, it's less barbaric because at least each dog has an equal chance, and the fox has no chance at all.



Inca's Mum said:


> I guess there is never going to be a right or wrong when it comes to many questions including this....


There is most definitely a right and a wrong - and it can never be right for ANYONE to condone the barbaric killing of an animal.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Inca's Mum said:


> Precisely, not like we all get up and head to a hunt filled with excitement of seeing an animal ripped to pieces. In all honesty, I've never seen a fox killed at the hunt so it's not like we get to see it actually happening, we just know when a scent has been found because of how the hounds react.


*To be honest i don't think the majority of people that go on these hunts actually witness the kill. As they are usually at the back.
*



Tapir said:


> so how many of these DH have you been on where this has happened then?
> 
> There's always that many protestors following getting in the way anyway, if a fox was killed it would instantly be reported and the hunter prosecuted.
> 
> There has been hardly any prosectutions under the Hunting act since it came into play.
> 
> Hunters are playing ball - get off their backs.


*There have been many reports, there have even been prosecutions of illegal hunts taking place when they claimed to be only drag hunting.
As for hunters playing ball.....Are you kidding? On a Facebook pro hunt page alone they often boast that they don't give a sh!t about the ban and will carry on hunting regardless of the law. They boast of their kills as do the terriermen.*


----------



## JJAK

The huntmen spent years and years breeding the natural instinct into them, 
Then more years training and honing that natural instinct

As iv already said, 
Like calling a pack of lions off a zebra!


----------



## xxwelshcrazyxx

JJAK said:


> Think of it like this....
> You try calling a group of lions off a zebra...
> its isnt going to happen!


I have never seen hunters on horse back dressed in red chasing a zebra with a pack of Lions..................it dont compare.


----------



## hawksport

Amethyst said:


> Nice to hear how well controlled (not) the hounds are then
> No wonder it's not unknown for them to wreak havoc and kill much loved pets ...


To be fair the sabs don't help things when they start splitting packs up and taking what little control there is from the hunt


----------



## Guest

Nice to see this going 'smoothly'... 

It's a god-damn miracle!


----------



## Inca's Mum

Spellweaver said:


> Oh, so you are there for the social gathering - right - so I suppose that makes it all ok then and the fact that an animal is chased to exhaustion and then ripped to shreds is just something that happens and is not your fault at all, even though you are part of the hunt?
> 
> *I'm not just there for the social gathering, of course it is a social meeting though and gives you a chance to talk with others in the area but it is also a great day out (for some of us at least.)*
> 
> Now you are at last telling the truth. So you do find it exciting that an animal is ripped to shreds. Saying it's just a way of life, just the way you've been brought up, is nothing more than an excuse. You are an intelligent young person and you usually present such a sensible view of most things, which is why I can't understand your take on this at all. You are well able to use your own mind to decide what is barbaric and what is not. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that you would be totally against the kind of things you are condoning if they were presented just a little differently (eg hoodies on quad bikes chasing pet dogs). How about people from less salubrious backgrounds who have been brought up to accept dog fighting as a way of life? By your standards, that would make their breeding fighting dogs and attending dog fights ok - it is, after all, a way of life for them and how they've been brought up - but I dare lay money on it that you think dog fighting is wrong and that you would expect such people to throw off the trappings of their backgrounds and to to realise the error of their ways. Dog fighting is no different, no more barbaric than fox hunting - in fact, it's less barbaric because at least each dog has an equal chance, and the fox has no chance at all.
> 
> *I can see both sides of this argument extremely clearly, and find any killing of animals disgusting but it's just something that HAPPENS and no matter what any of us here that are pro hunting say, your minds won't change and neither will ours. How can how I've been brought up be an excuse to how I see fox hunting? I know all the arguments for either side of the story and agree with many for both sides so in some ways could be deemed as 'on the fence' but the fact that I do go to hunts anyway obviously makes me pro.*


Bolded my reply.



FREE SPIRIT said:


> *To be honest i don't think the majority of people that go on these hunts actually witness the kill. As they are usually at the back.
> *


Precisely, sometimes the kill is miles away from the main hunt. The huntsmen are usually way off from the people on their horses who are following and at some hunts there is a LOT of standing around in fields compared to actually 'racing across fields'.


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> The hounds are extremely well trained, but they are working animals and it is how they WORK.
> 
> I've seen hunts but it's not as if the hounds kill them right by our feet! It usually happens in wooded areas.
> 
> And re the can't or won't, think what you like because no matter what I say your opinion won't change!


So you've seen the torn remains of a fox after the hounds have got hold of it then?

And no, advocating fox hunting won't ever change my opinion, don't care how you try and justify it.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> Think of it like this....
> You try calling a group of lions off a zebra...
> its isnt going to happen!


*NO....Think of it like this:
Hunting hounds are trained from a young age to go after foxes. They are taken out cubbing. Where they can go after young cubs and prepare them for later hunting on a bigger scale.*


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *NO....Think of it like this:
> Hunting hounds are trained from a young age to go after foxes. They are taken out cubbing. Where they can go after young cubs and prpare them for later hunting on a bigger scale.*


You make it sound like i have no idea what goes on


----------



## Tapir

I can accept your oppinions, why do you feel the need to attack us for ours?

Just accept that we are differant.


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> The huntmen spent years and years breeding the natural instinct into them,
> Then more years training and honing that natural instinct
> 
> As iv already said,
> Like calling a pack of lions off a zebra!


Yes, I heard that the little Yorkie they go hold of on the caravan site didn't stand a chance


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> So you've seen the torn remains of a fox after the hounds have got hold of it then?


Of course I haven't, have you? It isn't even a nice sound to me when you hear the hounds going after a fox and when you know they're after one, but that's not the reason I go to hunts. Believe it or not the majority of people who attend hunts are not bloodthirsty people.


----------



## Spellweaver

JJAK said:


> The huntmen spent years and years breeding the natural instinct into them,
> Then more years training and honing that natural instinct
> 
> As iv already said,
> Like calling a pack of lions off a zebra!


Except that when a pack of lions kills a zebra they do it for food. When a pack of dogs kill a fox they do it because MAN has trained them to do that for his own peverted pleasure in seeing an animal ripped to shreds.


----------



## Inca's Mum

Spellweaver said:


> Except that when a pack of lions kills a zebra they do it for food. When a pack of dogs kill a fox they do it because MAN has trained them to do that for his own peverted pleasure in seeing an animal ripped to shreds.


But they are foxhounds, and they have hunting instincts in them anyway but humans, over the centuries, have trained it into them. It's not humans perverted pleasure to see an animal ripped to shreds, hunting has been around for years when farmers needed to control the levels on their land.

From wiki:

*The English Foxhound was created in the late 16th century, as a result of the perception of the depletion of deer in England. Nobles and Royalty had hunted deer for both food and sport, using the Deerhound or Staghound for this purpose. During the reign of Henry VIII, it was perceived that a new prey was needed, and the fox was selected. The English Foxhound was then created by a careful mixing of the Greyhound, for speed, the Fox Terrier, for hunting instinct, and the Bulldog, for tenacity in the hunt.
During the British Raj, English Foxhounds were imported to India for the purpose of jackal coursing, though due to the comparatively hotter weather, they were rarely long lived. Foxhounds were preferred for this purpose over greyhounds, as the former was not as fast, and could thus provide a longer, more sporting chase.
Studbooks for this breed were kept as early as the 19th century.
The dogs were meant to trail foxes and live around horses. They are still used for those purposes.*


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> Of course I haven't, have you? It isn't even a nice sound to me when you hear the hounds going after a fox and when you know they're after one, but that's not the reason I go to hunts. Believe it or not the majority of people who attend hunts are not bloodthirsty people.


Why would I want too?? Afterall your the one advocating the hunt, so you should be prepared for the nitty grit of it surely?

And if you don't like the sound of the hounds going after the fox then why are you there in the first place  ???


----------



## xxwelshcrazyxx

JJAK said:


> The huntmen spent years and years breeding the natural instinct into them,
> Then more years training and honing that natural instinct
> 
> As iv already said,
> Like calling a pack of lions off a zebra!


Not the same at all.


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Yes, I heard that the little Yorkie they go hold of on the caravan site didn't stand a chance


I attend several differant county shows a year - there is always half the pack from two hunts there, and the hounds go into the crowd and into the main arena, where kids are invited in to meet them. The dogs are soft as s*** and I have NEVER seen a fox hound even approach the pet dogs on the grounds.

The yorkie incident was a one off.

(Btw I am horrified to hear bout the yorkie incident- I am no way saying thats okay, it's a terrible thing to happen)


----------



## Guest

I don't suppose we could all do what I originally asked, that is simply put down our opinions, discuss the topic nicely and not try to give eachother guilt-complexes?


----------



## xxwelshcrazyxx

Spellweaver said:


> Except that when a pack of lions kills a zebra they do it for food. When a pack of dogs kill a fox they do it because MAN has trained them to do that for his own peverted pleasure in seeing an animal ripped to shreds.


Well said.:thumbup:


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> Why would I want too?? Afterall your the one advocating the hunt, so you should be prepared for the nitty grit of it surely?
> 
> And if you don't like the sound of the hounds going after the fox then why are you there in the first place  ???


And although I advocate the hunt doesn't mean I want to see a fox that has been killed by the hounds. I'm not a bloodthirsty person, and this seems to be all you are making us out to be - in it for the kills.


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> The huntmen spent years and years breeding the natural instinct into them


So spot whats wrong with this quote then...


----------



## Inca's Mum

Chillinator said:


> I don't suppose we could all do what I originally asked, that is simply put down our opinions, discuss the topic nicely and not try to give eachother guilt-complexes?


It's a controversial topic what do you expect


----------



## Tapir

Tapir said:


> I can accept your oppinions, why do you feel the need to attack us for ours?
> 
> Just accept that we are differant.


Just bumping this as it has been ignored...


----------



## JJAK

jon bda said:


> So spot whats wrong with this quote then...


Ok, so its a natural instinct....
it just so happens he will breed his best hounds, the ones with the best noses etc together, selective breeding. Hes just trying to keep his bloodlines good and the hounds the best they can be....like many breeders on here do!


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> But they are foxhounds, and they have hunting instincts in them anyway but humans, over the centuries, have trained it into them.


To the point where these dogs are very difficult to find homes for after they are no longer useful.

How does it make you feel to know you support a pastime that condemns the majority of the dogs to death at around 5 or 7 years? An age when many dogs would be considered middle-aged ... Some don't even make it to that age 

Is it acceptable to you? If not, why support hunting, for you have the hounds blood on your hands too? If it is, what does this say about your attitude to dogs? Just a thought, it of course applies to everyone who follows the hunt


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Inca's Mum said:


> But they are foxhounds, and they have hunting instincts in them anyway but humans, over the centuries, have trained it into them. It's not humans perverted pleasure to see an animal ripped to shreds, hunting has been around for years when farmers needed to control the levels on their land.


*Im afraid that's just not true. Hounds are deleberately taken out at a young age to go cubbing. That has NOTHING to do with their natural instinct, if it did they wouldn't need to be trained to do so.
Also the MYTH of keeping foxes under control is just that, a myth. Foxes don't over populate as they regulate their own breeding. As for them killing farmers livestock?....MOST lambs,etc die from exposure NOT from foxes. Although im sure if a fox happens upon an already dead lamb for food, it will be accused of being the culprit for its death. *


----------



## Tapir

Chillinator said:


> I don't suppose we could all do what I originally asked, that is simply put down our opinions, discuss the topic nicely and not try to give eachother guilt-complexes?


Everyone's oppinions are on this thread. Some people are just struggling to accept that not everyone has the same oppinion as them.


----------



## Tapir

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Im afraid that's just not true. Hounds are deleberately taken out at a young age to go cubbing. *


Hellooooooooooo. It's banned y'ano.

:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Tapir said:


> Some people are just struggling to accept that not everyone has the same oppinion as them.


They can trouble themselves no more by stopping the struggle... :lol:


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> And although I advocate the hunt doesn't mean I want to see a fox that has been killed by the hounds. I'm not a bloodthirsty person, and this seems to be all you are making us out to be - in it for the kills.


I never said you were a bloodthirsty person, I just don't understand who whole "I like the hunt but not the kill" mindset 

Of course you do, else you would find another pastime surely?


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> Bolded my reply.
> 
> I can see both sides of this argument extremely clearly, and find any killing of animals disgusting but *it's just something that HAPPENS *and no matter what any of us here that are pro hunting say, your minds won't change and neither will ours. How can how I've been brought up be an excuse to how I see fox hunting? I know all the arguments for either side of the story and agree with many for both sides so in some ways could be deemed as 'on the fence' but the fact that I do go to hunts anyway obviously makes me pro.
> .


Sigh. I think of all your replies, the fact that you excuse it as just something that happens is the saddest of all. NO IT IS NOT JUST SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS! :mad2::mad2::mad2no apologies for shouting) It is something that happens because people like you support it and condone it. Just think what the world would be like today if everyone "just let things happen". We'd still have slavery, apartheid, children working down the mines, no-one would care about all the starving people in the wolrd, no World Health Organisation, no Save the Children fund, no Band Aid, no Children in Need etc etc etc - thank goodness the world is full of people who don't "just let things happen" in the way that you do.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

I really fail to see a justifiable reason for fux hunting . I mean a real reason not an excuse, other than you enjoy it! 

1. Fox hunters say it's to keep the population of foxes down. 
We all know there are more humane, simpler ways to keep unwanted populations down .

2. Fox hunters say we hardly ever catch a fox and if we do it's ill or old.
Then your hardly keeping the population down by killing animals that are already close to death are you?

3. They say foxes are pests because they kill livestock.
Protect your animals better then! I know people who have had chickens ect for 20 odd years and have never once had them stolen by a fox. Why? Because they had them well protected. 

4. We can't help it when the hounds catch a fox on a drag hunt. 
You just admitted to me that you can't control your dogs . If you can't control your dogs then they should not be running free . Don't hit me with this 'instinct' nonsense - I run my malamute and once he gets going it seems impossible to get him to stop. But he does, because he is well trained. 

I have experienced fox hunts first hand, and all it was to me was a bunch of muppets running around on horses with a pack of out of control dogs. It's a very out dated thing and should be left in the history books. Times have changed scince people needed to gather together and hunt down an innocent fox to socialise. It should be thrown out with the rest of the silly british 'traditions'. Modern times call for modern ways. There really is no justifiable reason for fox hunting, other than the huntsmens own pleasure. I don't agree with the fact the dogs are encouraged in their blood lust - it's not something that would be classed as acceptable in many other breeds purely because it's their instinct. Pitbulls ect? I think not! The hounds aren't 'working' dogs, in my eyes there is very few proper working dogs left in the country. They are worked for enjoyment, as a hobby by many but there's not many dogs left who are treated like proper working dogs. I have no problem with drag hunts so long as everyone is under control and the huntsmen abide to the law . No cutting across peoples property ect! I'm assuming that because you agree with fox hunting you agree with dog fighting, the slaughter of seals, badger baiting ect?


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> To the point where these dogs are very difficult to find homes for after they are no longer useful.
> 
> How does it make you feel to know you support a pastime that condemns the majority of the dogs to death at around 5 or 7 years? An age when many dogs would be considered middle-aged ... Some don't even make it to that age
> 
> Is it acceptable to you? If not, why support hunting, for you have the hounds blood on your hands too? If it is, what does this say about your attitude to dogs? Just a thought, it of course applies to everyone who follows the hunt


If you have not read some of my other posts where I have stated that I see both sides to this argument clearly and strongly agree with those on both sides of it.

To be perfectly honest though, as *I* see it working dogs shouldn't be compared to pet dogs. I care greatly for all animals, don't think too highly of the killing of foxes but most hunts I attend (and take into account here I don't actually ride, in case I hadn't stated that!) are drag hunts anyway.

I can't be bothered to keep arguing my side when you don't accept our views, we understand yours and can accept them.


----------



## Guest

Spellweaver said:


> Sigh. I think of all your replies, the fact that you excuse it as just something that happens is the saddest of all. NO IT IS NOT JUST SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS! :mad2::mad2::mad2no apologies for shouting) It is something that happens because people like you support it and condone it. Just think what the world would be like today if everyone "just let things happen". We'd still have slavery, apartheid, children working down the mines, no-one would care about all the starving people in the wolrd, no World Health Organisation, no Save the Children fund, no Band Aid, no Children in Need etc etc etc - thank goodness the world is full of people who don't "just let things happen" in the way that you do.


Temper and tone please!


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> I can accept your oppinions, why do you feel the need to attack us for ours?
> 
> Just accept that we are differant.


Oh, I can accept that your opinions are different to mine, and that I'm probably never going to be able to change them. However, it's not going to stop me trying, because your opinions entail an animal being chased to exhaustion and then being ripped to shreds, and I can't condone that as an animal lover.

And THAT is why anti hunters feel the need to attack opinions like yours.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

& for anyone who dares say that they don't want to see the fox killed or it doesnt matter because they don't see it happen, it doesn't happen right in front of them! It bloody well should! YOU caused it, it's YOUR fault - have the balls to stand and watch it happen!!! Such cowardice!!


----------



## Inca's Mum

Chillinator said:


> Temper and tone please!


Don't worry about it Luke, I guess it's always difficult to accept another's mindset on certain topics. I know I have a lot to learn about things in life and who knows, as I grow up and get out into the world my opinions will change but for now that's how I feel on the topic.


----------



## Amethyst

Chillinator said:


> They can trouble themselves no more by stopping the struggle... :lol:


Why are you so keen to stifle the debate? If you don't want to contribute, simply don't read this thread 

Everyone has been pretty polite and though passionate about their stance there's no problem as far as I can tell :confused1:


----------



## shibby

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I really fail to see a justifiable reason for fux hunting . I mean a real reason not an excuse, other than you enjoy it!
> 
> 1. Fox hunters say it's to keep the population of foxes down.
> We all know there are more humane, simpler ways to keep unwanted populations down .
> 
> 2. Fox hunters say we hardly ever catch a fox and if we do it's ill or old.
> Then your hardly keeping the population down by killing animals that are already close to death are you?
> 
> 3. They say foxes are pests because they kill livestock.
> Protect your animals better then! I know people who have had chickens ect for 20 odd years and have never once had them stolen by a fox. Why? Because they had them well protected.
> 
> 4. We can't help it when the hounds catch a fox on a drag hunt.
> You just admitted to me that you can't control your dogs . If you can't control your dogs then they should not be running free . Don't hit me with this 'instinct' nonsense - I run my malamute and once he gets going it seems impossible to get him to stop. But he does, because he is well trained.
> 
> I have experienced fox hunts first hand, and all it was to me was a bunch of muppets running around on horses with a pack of out of control dogs. It's a very out dated thing and should be left in the history books. Times have changed scince people needed to gather together and hunt down an innocent fox to socialise. It should be thrown out with the rest of the silly british 'traditions'. Modern times call for modern ways. There really is no justifiable reason for fox hunting, other than the huntsmens own pleasure. I don't agree with the fact the dogs are encouraged in their blood lust - it's not something that would be classed as acceptable in many other breeds purely because it's their instinct. Pitbulls ect? I think not! The hounds aren't 'working' dogs, in my eyes there is very few proper working dogs left in the country. They are worked for enjoyment, as a hobby by many but there's not many dogs left who are treated like proper working dogs. I have no problem with drag hunts so long as everyone is under control and the huntsmen abide to the law . No cutting across peoples property ect! I'm assuming that because you agree with fox hunting you agree with dog fighting, the slaughter of seals, badger baiting ect?


100% agree with this post


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> Don't worry about it Luke, I guess it's always difficult to accept another's mindset on certain topics. I know I have a lot to learn about things in life and who knows, as I grow up and get out into the world my opinions will change but for now that's how I feel on the topic.


I created this thread, and I can just as easily end it. I expect everyone to talk and discuss without drawing comparisons between different things that aren't relevant to the subject.


----------



## JJAK

Hunting is one of those things. 
Its always going to be a raw subject for some people, 
Were just gunna have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Tapir

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm off. I have the good grace to accept other people's views, beliefs and upbringings.

Good luck, Luke :thumbup:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> & for anyone who dares say that they don't want to see the fox killed or it doesnt matter because they don't see it happen, it doesn't happen right in front of them! It bloody well should! YOU caused it, it's YOUR fault - have the balls to stand and watch it happen!!! Such cowardice!!


*So true and well said. :thumbup:*



Inca's Mum said:


> Don't worry about it Luke, I guess it's always difficult to accept another's mindset on certain topics. I know I have a lot to learn about things in life and who knows, as I grow up and get out into the world my opinions will change but for now that's how I feel on the topic.


*I disagree......As do the majority of this country. It doesn't boil down to just a difference of opinion. It boils down to animal cruelty. *


----------



## Inca's Mum

Tapir said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I'm off. I have the good grace to accept other people's views, beliefs and upbringings.
> 
> Good luck, Luke :thumbup:


Ditto, have better things to do than justify my actions. I posted my opinion, argued my opinion and have taken others opinions on board. Who knows? Maybe in the future my opinion will be different but for now it's just how I feel. I shall put it on where I live, what my life entails right now and the people I am with.


----------



## noushka05

JJAK said:


> The huntmen spent years and years breeding the natural instinct into them,
> Then more years training and honing that natural instinct
> 
> As iv already said,
> Like calling a pack of lions off a zebra!


then if they dont make the grade they kill em! pups an all...oh and the training you speak off....that would be cubbing hey

lmao how strange to compare a 'pride' of lions who need to kill to survive, to a 'pack' of hounds bred by sicko's to hunt down an animal for 'sport' lol... at anyrate those hounds should be trained to recall if theyre in danger of killing anything!...it is afterall ILLEGAL for them to kill foxes, and what about the numerous pets they kill:confused1:, if they cant contol them then they shouldnt be rampaging across the countryside in the 1st place! its totally irresponsible!.


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> Ditto, have better things to do than justify my actions. I posted my opinion, argued my opinion and have taken others opinions on board. Who knows? Maybe in the future my opinion will be different but for now it's just how I feel. I shall put it on where I live, what my life entails right now and the people I am with.


Don't give up so soon...at least stay around and try to justify it...


----------



## Inca's Mum

jon bda said:


> Don't give up so soon...at least stay around and try to justify it...


I have for about 10 pages and am tired of repeating myself


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> It seems that you may have become desensitised to animal suffering, which is tragic
> But explains much ..


This is wrong. I have the knowledge and it has toughened me to be able to worked hard within several of what most here would class as unsavoury parts of life and by working from within have prevented cruelty to quite a number of animals.
Sitting on one side or the other only creates a bigger divide, by working from within I have managed to change attitudes, maybe not to the level that you would like, but that doesn't detract from what I have achieved.
Sitting on a forum does nothing for the welfare of animals. I have done my bit and continue to do so. Not on a grand scale, but for the creatures around me personally


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Inca's Mum said:


> I have for about 10 pages and am tired of repeating myself


finally


----------



## Tapir

Inca's Mum said:


> I have for about 10 pages and am tired of repeating myself


The fact is, we have nothing to justify. Hunting with hounds is banned, so we don't hunt foxes with hounds. We don't do anything wrong so don't need to justify anything.


----------



## Spellweaver

jon bda said:


> Don't give up so soon...at least stay around and try to justify it...


The pro hunters can't justify it though - every one of the excuses they put forward has been refuted by one poster or another. That's why they are leaving the thread.


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> To be perfectly honest though, as *I* see it working dogs shouldn't be compared to pet dogs.


I appreciate your honesty and I guess by viewing Foxhounds as, well, I'm not sure exactly how you view them, you can somehow find it acceptable that they are killed when they can no longer fulfill the purpose that your hobby dictates.

They are disposable, it seems, rather as I have said before, like Greyhounds are in the entertainment industry of racing :confused1:

I have tried hard to understand your stance, but as a dog lover, I find it very hard, impossibly so if I am honest to understand how you can feel like this about these hounds


----------



## Tapir

Spellweaver said:


> The pro hunters can't justify it though - every one of the excuses they put forward has been refuted by one poster or another. That's why they are leaving the thread.


Yep...you win. I've been scared of the thread. In fact... I'm now anti.


----------



## noushka05

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *So true and well said. :thumbup:*
> 
> *I disagree......As do the majority of this country. It doesn't boil down to just a difference of opinion. It boils down to animal cruelty. *


exactly, how anyone can even think otherwise is beyond me:confused1: but has has been mentioned earlier a lot of people seem to have been desensitised to the suffering of wild animals in particular, they cant empathise with them and they dont see them as individual beings...its very sad


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

noushka05 said:


> then if they dont make the grade they kill em! pups an all...oh and the training you speak off....that would be cubbing hey
> 
> lmao how strange to compare a 'pride' of lions who need to kill to survive, to a 'pack' of hounds bred by sicko's to hunt down an animal for 'sport' lol... at anyrate those hounds should be trained to recall if theyre in danger of killing anything!...it is afterall ILLEGAL for them to kill foxes, and what about the numerous pets they kill:confused1:, if they cant contol them then they shouldnt be rampaging across the countryside in the 1st place! its totally irresponsible!.


*Im afraid you won't get many if any admit to killing their hounds or peoples pets. 
When the facts are put to them, the denial creeps in....conveniently.*


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> I appreciate your honesty and I guess by viewing Foxhounds as, well, I'm not sure exactly how you view them, you can somehow find it acceptable that they are killed when they can no longer fulfill the purpose that your hobby dictates.
> 
> They are disposable, it seems, rather as I have said before, like Greyhounds are in the entertainment industry of racing :confused1:
> 
> I have tried hard to understand your stance, but as a dog lover, I find it very hard, impossibly so if I am honest to understand how you can feel like this about these hounds


I totally understand your post, and know how different views can be. If it's anything for you all, this thread has seriously got me thinking on my views in life but nothing will drastically change, things happen over time and maybe I can't justify the reasons behind going to the hunts all the time, but as a young person growing up in a world like this people make mistakes and have different views on things which may be right or wrong, but maybe I'll learn that one day.


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> The fact is, we have nothing to justify. Hunting with hounds is banned, so we don't hunt foxes with hounds. We don't do anything wrong so don't need to justify anything.


The original post was not about drag hunting though, it was about the government delaying the repeal of the hunting ban - ie hunting foxes with hounds. That is what so many people think is wrong and have been discussing on here.


----------



## JANICE199

*For ALL those in favour of fox hunting,shame on you.Bloody hypoctires comes to mind.i bet you would have a differnt view if it were your pet/pets being chased and terrified just for the "thrill".
Some people are so bloody thick and twisted it makes me sick.*


----------



## Guest

Watch that, fast forward to about 4/5 mins and say how that is fair


----------



## Guest

Savahl said:


> But wrt DEFRA and vermin...they do not class them as vermin maybe, but in certain situations they are classed as PEST
> 
> A pest is defined as something that:
> Spreads disease
> Damages Livestock/property
> Damages Feedstuf.
> Is a danger to public saftey


So can I send my two hounds after that git on the bus who sneezed all over me - gave me this Flu over Christmas and is therefore a danger to public safety? Ideal!! :thumbup:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Spellweaver said:


> The pro hunters can't justify it though - every one of the excuses they put forward has been refuted by one poster or another. That's why they are leaving the thread.


*Exactly.....As we've seen time and time again. *


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Im afraid you won't get many if any admit to killing their hounds or peoples pets.
> When the facts are put to them, the denial creeps in....conveniently.*


What denial?
Yes, there have been cases of the hounds killing peoples pets, i myself have been with a hunt in ireland when they killed a goat. 
You make it sound like none of us have consciences, we do. 
So we go fox hunting, it doesnt make us bad people. At the end of the day we shouldnt have to justify ourselves and our reasons. As has been said the point of this thread was for everyone to put their cards on the table, not for the jabs, snidy remarks and b*tchy comments that have come back.


----------



## Tapir

I'm just leaving because I'm bored of it


----------



## JJAK

Id also like to add, they hunt extremely differently over in ireland, 
Not 100% sure if the law is the same over there.....


----------



## Guest

Spellweaver said:


> Ah. fox-hunting - nothing like a good old favourite to debate to clear the Christmas spirit away!
> 
> Not read all the thread yet - but I will!  - but until I catch up two points are shouting out at me already (apologies if someone has already addressed these):
> 
> 1. Some people have pointed out that we shouldn't judge huntsmen because it's a way of life, it's what they've always done, what they've always known - well, so were children working down the mines, slavery, apartheid, dog-fighting, etc etc etc. They were not right and society did something about them. Fox hunting is not right and society is trying to do something about that too. Just because fox-hunters dress up in pretty clothes and look nice galloping aropund the countryside does not make it less cruel. I hope for once that the Mail is right and that the government is going to put the repeal of the law on ice. After the school fees debacle perhaps the government are now afraid of going against the weight of public opinion in order to satisfy the vociferious few and are not going to repeal the law. I guess it is definitely going to be one of the hot topics on their new petition site for things to be debated in parliament :thumbup:
> 
> 2. Some people have pointed out that we should not argue against fox hunting because of the horrendous way in which we keep farm animals. That's a nonsensical argument - a bit like trying to justify smoking by pointing out that car exhausts emit noxious and dangerous substances too. BOTH are wrong and BOTH need fighting against - and most people I know who are against fox-hunting are against ALL forms of animals cruelty.


Rep for you hun :thumbup:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> What denial?
> Yes, there have been cases of the hounds killing peoples pets, i myself have been with a hunt in ireland when they killed a goat.
> You make it sound like none of us have consciences, we do.
> *So we go fox hunting*, it doesnt make us bad people. At the end of the day we shouldnt have to justify ourselves and our reasons. As has been said the point of this thread was for everyone to put their cards on the table, not for the jabs, snidy remarks and b*tchy comments that have come back.


*Ah, so you admit to hunting foxes? 
As for cases where the hounds kill pets im afraid most hunters DO deny this as they deny killing their own hounds at an early age or if they don't make the grade. *


----------



## Inca's Mum

jon bda said:


> Watch that, fast forward to about 4/5 mins and say how that is fair


As some of the comments on the video have stated, that is not hunting. It is just cruel. Having attended hunts with several different packs I can tell you that these people do not represent the packs that hunt. Definitely makes it difficult to be able to defend hunting when there are videos like this used.


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> All country sports that I have been connected with have always been for the enjoyment of my dog.
> I'm not blood thirsty at all and I feel physically sick when I have to kill anything but my dog seems to override most negatives


oh, I own a Parson Jack Russell and If I was out in the woods and he Caught and HAD To kill a Small Animal I would Literally panic, Cry, Scream and Feel Absolutely Devastated.............Whether My Dog Enjoyed it or not...

How can seeing your dog kill something and say 'oh, well he's enjoying himself..I'll close my eyes to it'' :frown: Be ok...


----------



## JANICE199

JJAK said:


> What denial?
> Yes, there have been cases of the hounds killing peoples pets, i myself have been with a hunt in ireland when they killed a goat.
> You make it sound like none of us have consciences, we do.
> So we go fox hunting, it doesnt make us bad people. At the end of the day we shouldnt have to justify ourselves and our reasons. As has been said the point of this thread was for everyone to put their cards on the table, not for the jabs, snidy remarks and b*tchy comments that have come back.


You have a conscience and yet get a thrill out of chasing a deffefisive animal? Are you an animal lover too?



Tapir said:


> I'm just leaving because I'm bored of it


oh so the subject is more for fun then princible? I guess thats ok as we are only talking life or death here.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> Id also like to add, they hunt extremely differently over in ireland,
> Not 100% sure if the law is the same over there.....


*To be honest im not sure if the same laws apply in Ireland either. *


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Ah, so you admit to hunting foxes?
> As for cases where the hounds kill pets im afraid most hunters DO deny this as they deny killing their own hounds at an early age or if they don't make the grade. *


Personally iv had no dealings with our hunt killing pups....if their not up to scratch then they are put up for adoption so people assiciated with the hunt can rehome them!?!


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> As some of the comments on the video have stated, that is not hunting. It is just cruel. Having attended hunts with several different packs I can tell you that these people do not represent the packs that hunt. Definitely makes it difficult to be able to defend hunting when there are videos like this used.


Well theres Toffs on horseback, a scared Fox and loads of hounds...seems about right for a hunt?


----------



## Spellweaver

JANICE199 said:


> *For ALL those in favour of fox hunting,shame on you.Bloody hypoctires comes to mind.i bet you would have a differnt view if it were your pet/pets being chased and terrified just for the "thrill".Some people are so bloody thick and twisted it makes me sick.*


You know what Jan - I think you are spot on here. I notice that not one of the pro-hunters has commented on my post that hunting is no different to hoodies riding quad bikes through a precinct and chasing pet dogs. And why? Because they would have to either admit that they would also condone the hoodies or admit that hunting is just as wrong.


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> As some of the comments on the video have stated, that is not hunting. It is just cruel. Having attended hunts with several different packs I can tell you that these people do not represent the packs that hunt. Definitely makes it difficult to be able to defend hunting when there are videos like this used.


How would you know? You've never witnessed the kill? Or the remains?


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> What denial?
> Yes, there have been cases of the hounds killing peoples pets, i myself have been with a hunt in ireland when they killed a goat.
> You make it sound like none of us have consciences, we do.
> So we go fox hunting, it doesnt make us bad people. At the end of the day we shouldnt have to justify ourselves and our reasons. As has been said the point of this thread was for everyone to put their cards on the table, not for the jabs, snidy remarks and b*tchy comments that have come back.


If you don't wish to contribute to this thread then you really shoudln't. But it stands to reason people are going to reply to things that you DO choose to post.

Personally I think if you had a genuine conscience about hounds killing pets and the Foxhounds themselves being killed at middle age or younger, then you would not, no could not continue hunting in any of it's guises ... How could you :confused1:


----------



## JJAK

Spellweaver said:


> You know what Jan - I think you are spot on here. I notice that not one of the pro-hunters has commented on my post that hunting is no different to hoodies riding quad bikes through a precinct and chasing pet dogs. And why? Because they would have to either admit that they would also condone the hoodies or admit that hunting is just as wrong.


I didnt see that comment earlier!!
I dont have to admit anything, and im not going to, 
I will not be guilt tripped into saying something i dont mean, 
I will also not be made to feel like im a terrible person (not that i do) 
You think hunting is wrong, then so be it, i personally think KC rules of breeding stupid genetic disorders and stupid bone structur into different breeds of dogs is wrong...but hey ho, kennel club says its ok...so it must be!


----------



## Guest

Maybe I miss the point here but what is so good about watching a animal run for its life to be torn to shreds by a pack of dogs? 

Cant you just stay at home and play call of duty or something instead?

What really gets my goat so to speak is that you can go for a nice ride with your dog along side without having to attack wildlife..

I dont care if the dogs enjoy it...or if man enjoys it. Get your dog to do agility or something else that doesnt involve a poor animal spending its last few min's scared and then in pain.

I hope David Cameron changes his mind and keeps it banned it really doesnt show humans at their finest.


----------



## Spellweaver

JJAK said:


> I didnt see that comment!!


You have now!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> I didnt see that comment!!


*But we're happy to hear your opinion?*


----------



## Amethyst

shetlandlover said:


> I dont care if the dogs enjoy it...or if man enjoys it. Get your dog to do agility or something else that doesnt involve a poor animal spending its last few min's scared and then in pain.


:thumbup: Spot on :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws said:


> I would have no problem with hunting with hounds, if one of the hunters would allow themselves to be rubbered over them "fox perfume", and then run in front of the hounds and see what happens when the hounds catch them up. If they are still OK at the end of the hunt, may change my mind.


Careful!! I wrote a similar comment a few months back and got lynch-mobbed off the forum...I have now learned it best not to have an opinion 

But very funny comment and worth a green blob!! :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> oh, I own a Parson Jack Russell and If I was out in the woods and he Caught and HAD To kill a Small Animal I would Literally panic, Cry, Scream and Feel Absolutely Devastated.............Whether My Dog Enjoyed it or not...
> 
> How can seeing your dog kill something and say 'oh, well he's enjoying himself..I'll close my eyes to it'' :frown: Be ok...


  
My dog doesn't kill


----------



## JANICE199

Spellweaver said:


> You know what Jan - I think you are spot on here. I notice that not one of the pro-hunters has commented on my post that hunting is no different to hoodies riding quad bikes through a precinct and chasing pet dogs. And why? Because they would have to either admit that they would also condone the hoodies or admit that hunting is just as wrong.


*Val, as you know i will NEVER agree to any blood sport.I cannot for the life of me believe what i'm reading on this forum.The very mention of an accidental mating,or byb and all hell breaks loose.But many of those people find it perfectly ok to chase,terrorise,(sp)and kill an animal that has done nothing against its nature.*


----------



## JJAK

Buster's Mummy said:


> Careful!! I wrote a similar comment a few months back and got lynch-mobbed off the forum...I have now learned it best not to have an opinion
> 
> But very funny comment and worth a green blob!! :thumbup:


There is a man which does this!!
There was a programme on about him the other week. 
Hes called the human fox or something, he goes to the meets, gets a 10 min head start on the hounds....

This comment was meant to refer to a hunter being 'hunted'


----------



## snoopydo

Tapir said:


> This is exactly the issue! People DON'T know or understand what happens... they just get what the media tell them, what rent-a-mob antis tell them and not actual facts.
> 
> Not many ferrets catch the rabbit as large hobs are not used. they tend to be stronger, kill the rabbit and lay up.
> 
> Smaller jills are usually used which simply flush the rabbit out the burrow into the net where it's kneck is broken straight away.
> Maybe your should save the eye rolls for things you fully know about.


oh, sorry for my lack of knowledge......PHEW, Thats a relief They ONLY get their Necks Instantly Broken Then ......Thats Better :eek6:


----------



## piggybaker

This is such a hard subject to discuss without emotion clouding the subject, for those who no longer live in the need to know its hard to see the passion, for those who see and feel it know the passion, but to get those passions from one to the other is like the French speaking to the English LOL..

as has been said, lets try to keep it as sterile of emotion as much as we can, I find the topic interesting it is such a strange subject with reguard to politics.. and I enjoy seeing the different sides of the views.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> There is a man which does this!!
> There was a programme on about him the other week.
> Hes called the human fox or something, he goes to the meets, gets a 10 min head start on the hounds....
> 
> This comment was meant to refer to a hunter being 'hunted'


*Now that seems perfectly acceptable and sounds like fun. Why not take this up as a hobby instead of hunting innocent animals?*


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Now that seems perfectly acceptable and sounds like fun. Why not take this up as a hobby instead of hunting innocent animals?*


I dont make the rules!
I think hes the only one thats done this, 
Hes some long distance endurance runner by profession?!


----------



## Amethyst

piggybaker said:


> as has been said, lets try to keep it as sterile of emotion as much as we can,


This is a subject which never will be sterile of emotion, animal abuse and exploitation should arouse passionate response, hopefully in most people at least. Sad day for animal welfare when this ceases to be so


----------



## shoreset

Tapir said:


> I attend several differant county shows a year - there is always half the pack from two hunts there, and the hounds go into the crowd and into the main arena, where kids are invited in to meet them. The dogs are soft as s*** and I have NEVER seen a fox hound even approach the pet dogs on the grounds.
> 
> The yorkie incident was a one off.
> 
> (Btw I am horrified to hear bout the yorkie incident- I am no way saying thats okay, it's a terrible thing to happen)


are you frickin kidding me? it happens alot more than once so the yorkie incident was NOT a one off. I personally know three people to have had pets killed. one was a dog, two were cats. I wonder how many more cats were killed when the owner didn't see so didn't know what had happened to them. I also know of people in the hunt who have been on hunts where an animal other than a fox has been killed, so that poor yorkie was no way an isolated incident!! and if you believe that it is then you are very naive.

and before you say anything I am not anti hunting (with the gun and doing it humanely) I am anti terrorising the poor animal and ripping them to shreds


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> :thumbup: Spot on :thumbup:


Thanks.

I am puzzled by it. If someone can explain why its something good then I will happily listen. As of yet the only excuses I have herd (not from htis thread) is that it keeps fox's down.....


----------



## Spellweaver

JJAK said:


> I didnt see that comment earlier!!
> I dont have to admit anything, and im not going to,
> I will not be guilt tripped into saying something i dont mean,
> I will also not be made to feel like im a terrible person (not that i do)
> You think hunting is wrong, then so be it, i personally think KC rules of breeding stupid genetic disorders and stupid bone structur into different breeds of dogs is wrong...but hey ho, kennel club says its ok...so it must be!


The difference is, if your comment about the Kennel Club were true, then I would be agreeing with you. It's not, so I don't. (That's a whole different debate that I would be happy to have with you on a different thread if you want to, rather than highjacking this one and making the OP cross, because he's already made comments about people posting irrelevant things).


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable  Oscar Wilde
> 
> Well said Oscar :thumbup:


In All ''SPORTS'' All opponents Should Know The Rules :thumbup:


----------



## piggybaker

Amethyst said:


> This is a subject which never will be sterile of emotion, animal abuse and exploitation should arouse passionate response, hopefully in most people at least. Sad day for animal welfare when this ceases to be so


I am aware of it but the debate cannot carry on if we snipe at each other,, please don't think I don't have emotion,


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

shoreset said:


> are you frickin kidding me? it happens alot more than once so the yorkie incident was NOT a one off. I personally know three people to have had pets killed. one was a dog, two were cats. I wonder how many more cats were killed when the owner didn't see so didn't know what had happened to them. I also know of people in the hunt who have been on hunts where an animal other than a fox has been killed, so that poor yorkie was no way an isolated incident!! and if you believe that it is then you are very naive.
> 
> and before you say anything I am not anti hunting (with the gun and doing it humanely) I am anti terrorising the poor animal and ripping them to shreds





shetlandlover said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I am puzzled by it. If someone can explain why its something good then I will happily listen. As of yet the only excuses I have herd (not from htis thread) is that it keeps fox's down.....


*Totally agree....Although you'll never find proof of it keeping fox numbers down, as it doesn't. Nor do they need keeping down.*


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> You think hunting is wrong, then so be it, i personally think KC rules of breeding stupid genetic disorders and stupid bone structur into different breeds of dogs is wrong...but hey ho, kennel club says its ok...so it must be!


I dont agree with breeding sick dogs either tbh regardless of what the kennel club say.

The kennel club dont make anyone do health tests but good breeders do, the kennel club say you can breed a bitch from 12months old but good breeders wait.

Funny....you can pick and choose statements all you like alot of what the kennel club says good breeders take on board but still go against it.

For example breeding from WAY over average hip scores, the kennel club dont have any rules regarding it however good breeders will not risk it.


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> In All ''SPORTS'' All opponents Should Know The Rules :thumbup:


Ferreting is ok then because stoats and weasels do the same


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Totally agree....Although you'll never find proof of it keeping fox numbers down, as it doesn't. Nor do they need keeping down.*


Well how long has the "hunt" been banned? And well I live in the country side and there is no more foxes now than there were in the 90's.

When I lived in the city no foxes, when I lived in urban area's no foxes.

Its not about keeping numbers down because otherwise they would use humane ways of doing it.


----------



## bellathemog

My view on hunting should be banned

This is a VERY true story that happened to my husband at the time.

10 yrs ago while he was out walking along the track (he was a track inspector for network rail) he came across a "hunt" these "objects" were on their horses with hounds racing after this fox.

The fox as I understand came running down the track towards my husband and as my husband said " it was the worst sight he had ever seen looking into this foxes eyes". The hounds started to follow, he then see the fox go into the tunnel and he and another worker stood their ground and did EVERYTHING to stop the hounds going through the tunnel. 1. for safety reasons 2. because he HATED everything about hunting. 

They did stop the hounds from entering by force and the dogs then started to as I was told head up the banks around the tunnel. Then 6 "objects" on horseback came up and started shouting and swearing at my husband and fellow workmate.

My husband told them to get off the track for safety reasons but these "objects" did not want to know. one "object" then got off the horse with gun in hand and threaten my husband. He told them again to get off the track and again did not want to move, so he called the transport police.

These animals who hunt need to get a "check" on life, its a cruel cruel so called sport.


I for one would do my best to help a fox in trouble like my husband need.

People who find it a sport to kill foxes plus feel free to let me get on horse back with a pack of hounds and a gun and chase you around to death because you need to feel how these foxes feel.


And YES hounds do go for pets! My sister cat got killed by these idiots.


----------



## Amethyst

piggybaker said:


> I am aware of it but the debate cannot carry on if we snipe at each other,, please don't think I don't have emotion,


Nobody is sniping, we are participating in passionate debate :thumbup:

Interesting and enlightening thread mostly


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> Well how long has the "hunt" been banned? And well I live in the country side and there is no more foxes now than there were in the 90's.
> 
> When I lived in the city no foxes, when I lived in urban area's no foxes.
> 
> Its not about keeping numbers down because otherwise they would use humane ways of doing it.


What is humane?


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> Ferreting is ok then because stoats and weasels do the same


When they are hungry and to survive, not for fun/as a hobby and there lies the difference. Between necessity and barbarity.


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> What is humane?


If a fox is breaking into a chicken coop then I feel a farmer has every right to get his gun and shoot it...hell I would sooner be shot than chased across fields and fields to be then ripped it bits.


----------



## JJAK

shetlandlover said:


> Well how long has the "hunt" been banned? And well I live in the country side and there is no more foxes now than there were in the 90's.
> 
> When I lived in the city no foxes, when I lived in urban area's no foxes.
> 
> Its not about keeping numbers down because otherwise they would use humane ways of doing it.


I live in the city now 
And we currently have 3 foxes living in a carpark down the road from us!!


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> I live in the city now
> And we currently have 3 foxes living in a carpark down the road from us!!


Best train a rat, on the back of a cat to go hunt them then...


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> I live in the city now
> And we currently have 3 foxes living in a carpark down the road from us!!


I was brought up in the country until I was 13/14 then moved to the city which I lived in till I moved to this house in September 2010 I have only ever seen 1 fox in the city and it was alright...kept itself to itself lived in the local park.

In the country...nothing. You hear them but you dont see them. Infact the lady next door who's lived here a while thought she had seen her first fox turned out my Scorcher had gotten into her garden.


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> If a fox is breaking into a chicken coop then I feel a farmer has every right to get his gun and shoot it...hell I would sooner be shot than chased across fields and fields to be then ripped it bits.


I do not agree with fox hunting, never have, never will, but one of the main alternatives would be snares which I find even more barbaric


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> I was brought up in the country until I was 13/14 then moved to the city which I lived in till I moved to this house in September 2010 I have only ever seen 1 fox in the city and it was alright...kept itself to itself lived in the local park.
> 
> In the country...nothing. You hear them but you dont see them. Infact the lady next door who's lived here a while thought she had seen her first fox turned out my Scorcher had gotten into her garden.


I see at least one fox on nearly every walk and I don't walk the same place all the time. 
I don't think the local hunts have access to much ground around here though


----------



## Staysee

I'd say i am shocked to see so many pages on this subject, but then i remember what the subject is! haha



To make things fair, like others have said, lets turn the tables....the hunters be hunted, let them be chased to exhaustion with the aboslute fear.


----------



## Amethyst

bellathemog said:


> My view on hunting should be banned
> 
> This is a VERY true story that happened to my husband at the time.


It's heartening to hear about people like your hubby and his colleague.

Real men :thumbup:

It reminds me of that saying, in fact this whole thread does ....

"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> I see at least one fox on nearly every walk and I don't walk the same place all the time.
> I don't think the local hunts have access to much ground around here though


*I would see that as a privelage.*


----------



## Spellweaver

rona said:


> I do not agree with fox hunting, never have, never will, but one of the main alternatives would be snares which I find even more barbaric


Doesn't have to be the main alternative at all Rona - a cage trap and then shooting would be far more humane. Of course, it would need to be checked every day - but that's just part of what a farmer's/gamekeeper's responsibilities.


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I would see that as a privelage.*


So do I.
Foxes are beautiful creatures.


----------



## JJAK

rona said:


> I see at least one fox on nearly every walk and I don't walk the same place all the time.
> I don't think the local hunts have access to much ground around here though


Depends if they have the land owners permission! 
Iv always found, with my own personal hunt, they they try their upmost to stick within the law. They even went and brought a hawk...as permitted in the law. 
They ALWAYS ask the land owners permission and if denied will NOT venture onto the land.

Its up to the individual hunt to keep within the law, what one hunt does is up to them, if they dont want to stick within the law then so be it....but sadly its those who are tarnishing other hunts with the same bad name....although most of you lot already despise them!


----------



## noushka05

bellathemog said:


> My view on hunting should be banned
> 
> This is a VERY true story that happened to my husband at the time.
> 
> 10 yrs ago while he was out walking along the track (he was a track inspector for network rail) he came across a "hunt" these "objects" were on their horses with hounds racing after this fox.
> 
> The fox as I understand came running down the track towards my husband and as my husband said " it was the worst sight he had ever seen looking into this foxes eyes". The hounds started to follow, he then see the fox go into the tunnel and he and another worker stood their ground and did EVERYTHING to stop the hounds going through the tunnel. 1. for safety reasons 2. because he HATED everything about hunting.
> 
> They did stop the hounds from entering by force and the dogs then started to as I was told head up the banks around the tunnel. Then 6 "objects" on horseback came up and started shouting and swearing at my husband and fellow workmate.
> 
> My husband told them to get off the track for safety reasons but these "objects" did not want to know. one "object" then got off the horse with gun in hand and threaten my husband. He told them again to get off the track and again did not want to move, so he called the transport police.
> 
> These animals who hunt need to get a "check" on life, its a cruel cruel so called sport.
> 
> I for one would do my best to help a fox in trouble like my husband need.
> 
> People who find it a sport to kill foxes plus feel free to let me get on horse back with a pack of hounds and a gun and chase you around to death because you need to feel how these foxes feel.
> 
> And YES hounds do go for pets! My sister cat got killed by these idiots.


what a very kind and compassionate man your Husband is thank goodness there are good people out there who cant bare to allow such sadistic cruelty, i know my hubby and my sons would have done just the same if they'd have been in that stomach churning position.

i always remember this video posted by our lovely Nina of hunt saboteurs saving a fox from the hounds ...the vile disgusting huntsmen are the ones who should be ripped to pieces

YouTube - Hunt Saboteurs Save Fox. Ledbury Hunt Nov 2008


----------



## Staysee

shetlandlover said:


> So do I.
> Foxes are beautiful creatures.


They really are!

Earlier this year one of our cats caught a young blackbird, we managed to get it from him still alive and we took it to a wildlife center not too far away, whilst there i saw they had a fox cub in a cage, which had been found injured at the side of the road.

She got the cub out and let me hold it, it was so gorgeous and it snuggled into me, one of the best moments of 2010 for me!


----------



## Amethyst

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I would see that as a privelage.*


Freespirit, I saw a fox in our street, beautiful against the sparkling snow and I could have cried with joy. He or she was a beautiful animal and many mornings I have looked again for them, but no sign. I am hopeful our paths will cross again, for me it was indeed a privilege to have this experience 

Thankfully foxes live in peace around here to my knowledge and if I hear differently ...


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> Depends if they have the land owners permission!
> Iv always found, with my own personal hunt, they they try their upmost to stick within the law. They even went and brought a hawk...as permitted in the law.
> They ALWAYS ask the land owners permission and if denied will NOT venture onto the land.
> 
> Its up to the individual hunt to keep within the law, what one hunt does is up to them, if they dont want to stick within the law then so be it....but sadly its those who are tarnishing other hunts with the same bad name....although most of you lot already despise them!


*It is because of the sheer cruelty that they are despised. Blood sports are totally unnecessary. There is no SPORT in cruelty.*


----------



## Inca's Mum

this is jessicas sister talkin.
i have a horse, and on the yard i am at in northumberland a lot of people hunt, we are not red faced toffs, our horses do not cost £50,000 and we are not blood thirsty. We do go hunting, drag hunting, it is not the same as an actual hunt, we do not go out on the hunting field looking to kill animals, namely foxes, the people we associate with go out to socialise, have a drink and have a good time. We see hunting like a pleasure ride, you have the masters and whipper ins who are at the front of the pack with the dogs, then you have the all of the other people who just follow them. You RARELY ever see the hounds catching a fox, and the people i know who have been hunting for years say they have seen 1 fox being caught in all the years they have been out. The hounds are not pets, they are there for a job. Also the hunt does a great deal for local farmers, the hunt goes around and collects the fallen stock for the farm in return to be able to hunt around their land. If the hunt did not do the fallen stock round then farmers would have to wait for DEFRA or whoever to come and collect the fallen stock, also the fallen stock is disposed of by the dogs, it does not then become cheap nasty burgers or sausages in mcdonalds. So for everyone who is against hunting, thats your opinion, but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs and blood thirsty why dont you have a look at the bigger picture thanks.


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I would see that as a privelage.*


Any wildlife I bump into on my walks are the icing on the cake :thumbup: :thumbup:
I love it 



Spellweaver said:


> Doesn't have to be the main alternative at all Rona - a cage trap and then shooting would be far more humane. Of course, it would need to be checked every day - but that's just part of what a farmer's/gamekeeper's responsibilities.


No it doesn't but they are all to common


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> Depends if they have the land owners permission!
> Iv always found, with my own personal hunt, they they try their upmost to stick within the law. They even went and brought a hawk...as permitted in the law.
> They ALWAYS ask the land owners permission and if denied will NOT venture onto the land.
> 
> Its up to the individual hunt to keep within the law, what one hunt does is up to them, if they dont want to stick within the law then so be it....but sadly its those who are tarnishing other hunts with the same bad name....although most of you lot already despise them!


Your reposte sucks dude...


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> My dog doesn't kill


So what Doe'sThis mean then..........................

Quote:
Originally Posted by rona 
All country sports that I have been connected with have always been for the enjoyment of my dog.
I'm not blood thirsty at all and I feel physically sick when I have to kill anything but my dog seems to override most negatives


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Amethyst said:


> Freespirit, I saw a fox in our street, beautiful against the sparkling snow and I could have cried with joy. He or she was a beautiful animal and many mornings I have looked again for them, but no sign. I am hopeful our paths will cross again, for me it was indeed a privilege to have this experience
> 
> Thankfully foxes live in peace around here to my knowledge and if I hear differently ...


*There's been a fox or two spotted where i live over the years...unfortunately ive never seen one. 
Anyone who has that privelage should count themselves blessed not burdened. *


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> i always remember this video posted by our lovely Nina of hunt saboteurs saving a fox from the hounds ...the vile disgusting huntsmen are the ones who should be ripped to pieces
> 
> YouTube - Hunt Saboteurs Save Fox. Ledbury Hunt Nov 2008


The way those hounds pulled at that poor fox, my heart is pounding with emotion and anger just watching that. Those who hunt (in any guise) should watch that video and hang their heads in DEEP, DEEP shame.

Those hunt sabs were amazing.


----------



## Staysee

Inca's Mum said:


> this is jessicas sister talkin.
> i have a horse, and on the yard i am at in northumberland a lot of people hunt, we are not red faced toffs, our horses do not cost £50,000 and we are not blood thirsty. We do go hunting, drag hunting, it is not the same as an actual hunt, we do not go out on the hunting field looking to kill animals, namely foxes, the people we associate with go out to socialise, have a drink and have a good time. We see hunting like a pleasure ride, you have the masters and whipper ins who are at the front of the pack with the dogs, then you have the all of the other people who just follow them. You RARELY ever see the hounds catching a fox, and the people i know who have been hunting for years say they have seen 1 fox being caught in all the years they have been out. The hounds are not pets, they are there for a job. Also the hunt does a great deal for local farmers, the hunt goes around and collects the fallen stock for the farm in return to be able to hunt around their land. If the hunt did not do the fallen stock round then farmers would have to wait for DEFRA or whoever to come and collect the fallen stock, also the fallen stock is disposed of by the dogs, it does not then become cheap nasty burgers or sausages in mcdonalds. So for everyone who is against hunting, thats your opinion, but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs and blood thirsty why dont you have a look at the bigger picture thanks.


You say your only out for drag hunting, but then talk about how by collecting fallen lifestock, they then are given permission to hunt on the land?

I do hope you mean the farmer gives them permission to do DRAG hunting on his ground and not anything else


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> this is jessicas sister talkin.
> i have a horse, and on the yard i am at in northumberland a lot of people hunt, we are not red faced toffs, our horses do not cost £50,000 and we are not blood thirsty. We do go hunting, drag hunting, it is not the same as an actual hunt, we do not go out on the hunting field looking to kill animals, namely foxes, the people we associate with go out to socialise, have a drink and have a good time. We see hunting like a pleasure ride, you have the masters and whipper ins who are at the front of the pack with the dogs, then you have the all of the other people who just follow them. You RARELY ever see the hounds catching a fox, and the people i know who have been hunting for years say they have seen 1 fox being caught in all the years they have been out. The hounds are not pets, they are there for a job. Also the hunt does a great deal for local farmers, the hunt goes around and collects the fallen stock for the farm in return to be able to hunt around their land. If the hunt did not do the fallen stock round then farmers would have to wait for DEFRA or whoever to come and collect the fallen stock, also the fallen stock is disposed of by the dogs, it does not then become cheap nasty burgers or sausages in mcdonalds. So for everyone who is against hunting, thats your opinion, but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs and blood thirsty why dont you have a look at the bigger picture thanks.


Get a life...your sister????


----------



## noushka05

Inca's Mum said:


> this is jessicas sister talkin.
> i have a horse, and on the yard i am at in northumberland a lot of people hunt, we are not red faced toffs, our horses do not cost £50,000 and we are not blood thirsty. We do go hunting, drag hunting, it is not the same as an actual hunt, we do not go out on the hunting field looking to kill animals, namely foxes, the people we associate with go out to socialise, have a drink and have a good time. We see hunting like a pleasure ride, you have the masters and whipper ins who are at the front of the pack with the dogs, then you have the all of the other people who just follow them. You RARELY ever see the hounds catching a fox, and the people i know who have been hunting for years say they have seen 1 fox being caught in all the years they have been out. The hounds are not pets, they are there for a job. Also the hunt does a great deal for local farmers, the hunt goes around and collects the fallen stock for the farm in return to be able to hunt around their land. If the hunt did not do the fallen stock round then farmers would have to wait for DEFRA or whoever to come and collect the fallen stock, also the fallen stock is disposed of by the dogs, it does not then become cheap nasty burgers or sausages in mcdonalds. So for everyone who is against hunting, thats your opinion, but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs and blood thirsty why dont you have a look at the bigger picture thanks.


i dont care what their class... rich, middle class poor,dont care if they ride the best hunter or a flippin donkey they are ALL cruel....simples


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> Ferreting is ok then because stoats and weasels do the same


It's Not ok..... it's so upsetting for us people you adore all Animals and would do anything to keep them from harm..


----------



## Staysee

Amethyst said:


> The way those hounds pulled at that poor fox, my heart is pounding with emotion and anger just watching that. Those who hunt (in any guise) should watch that video and hang their heads in DEEP, DEEP shame.
> 
> Those hunt sabs were amazing.


And pro hunters say the fox is killed quite quickly

But im sorry, if the fox is killed quickly then the antis wouldnt have time to save the fox, instead all you see is the hounds pulling at the poor foxes skin


----------



## shibby

Inca's Mum said:


> this is jessicas sister talkin.
> i have a horse, and on the yard i am at in northumberland a lot of people hunt, we are not red faced toffs, our horses do not cost £50,000 and we are not blood thirsty. We do go hunting, drag hunting, it is not the same as an actual hunt, we do not go out on the hunting field looking to kill animals, namely foxes, the people we associate with go out to socialise, have a drink and have a good time. We see hunting like a pleasure ride, you have the masters and whipper ins who are at the front of the pack with the dogs, then you have the all of the other people who just follow them. You RARELY ever see the hounds catching a fox, and the people i know who have been hunting for years say they have seen 1 fox being caught in all the years they have been out. The hounds are not pets, they are there for a job. Also the hunt does a great deal for local farmers, the hunt goes around and collects the fallen stock for the farm in return to be able to hunt around their land. If the hunt did not do the fallen stock round then farmers would have to wait for DEFRA or whoever to come and collect the fallen stock, also the fallen stock is disposed of by the dogs, it does not then become cheap nasty burgers or sausages in mcdonalds. *So for everyone who is against hunting, thats your opinion, but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs and blood thirsty why dont you have a look at the bigger picture thanks.*


Same goes for those pro-hunting calling those anti-hunting misinformed, blinded by the media, overly-emotive tree-huggers  And that was one fox too many.


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> The way those hounds pulled at that poor fox, my heart is pounding with emotion and anger just watching that. Those who hunt (in any guise) should watch that video and hang their heads in DEEP, DEEP shame.
> 
> Those hunt sabs were amazing.


i feel just the same when i watch it! and can you believe people actually do this for 'fun'????

yeah those sabs were brilliant...hero's in my eyes


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> The way those hounds pulled at that poor fox, my heart is pounding with emotion and anger just watching that. Those who hunt (in any guise) should watch that video and hang their heads in DEEP, DEEP shame.
> 
> Those hunt sabs were amazing.


Amethyst, I'm with you totally, I've got Tears running down my face....Words can't describe how I feel.... It's Heartbreaking.


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> this is jessicas sister talkin.


Why not join the forum "jessicas sister" if you have something to say, you'd be very welcome and people might take your opinions more seriously


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs.


I am a country and horse person....I dont hop on a horse and kill foxes though.


----------



## Inca's Mum

Staysee said:


> You say your only out for drag hunting, but then talk about how by collecting fallen lifestock, they then are given permission to hunt on the land?
> 
> I do hope you mean the farmer gives them permission to do DRAG hunting on his ground and not anything else[/QUOTE
> 
> of course, the hunt that we hunt with abides with the law, they always get permission from the local farmers before we go drag hunting, we never intentionally go looking for foxes, however the dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to find foxes, and yes there has been known to be accidents, but the hunt followers never see, or hear about it if there has been, i do not personally go out wanting to get a fox, it is upsetting when it happens but its what happens.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

noushka05 said:


> yeah those sabs were brilliant...hero's in my eyes


*Totally agree....Sabs and monitors are heroes. :thumbup:*


----------



## snoopydo

Inca's Mum said:


> Staysee said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say your only out for drag hunting, but then talk about how by collecting fallen lifestock, they then are given permission to hunt on the land?
> 
> I do hope you mean the farmer gives them permission to do DRAG hunting on his ground and not anything else[/QUOTE
> 
> of course, the hunt that we hunt with abides with the law, they always get permission from the local farmers before we go drag hunting, we never intentionally go looking for foxes, however the dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to find foxes, and yes there has been known to be accidents, but the hunt followers never see, or hear about it if there has been, i do not personally go out wanting to get a fox, it is upsetting when it happens but its what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> Have You watched that Video? Tell me thats ok
Click to expand...


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> this is jessicas sister talkin.
> i have a horse, and on the yard i am at in northumberland a lot of people hunt, we are not red faced toffs, our horses do not cost £50,000 and we are not blood thirsty. We do go hunting, drag hunting, it is not the same as an actual hunt, we do not go out on the hunting field looking to kill animals, namely foxes, the people we associate with go out to socialise, have a drink and have a good time. We see hunting like a pleasure ride, you have the masters and whipper ins who are at the front of the pack with the dogs, then you have the all of the other people who just follow them. You RARELY ever see the hounds catching a fox, and the people i know who have been hunting for years say they have seen 1 fox being caught in all the years they have been out. The hounds are not pets, they are there for a job. Also the hunt does a great deal for local farmers, the hunt goes around and collects the fallen stock for the farm in return to be able to hunt around their land. If the hunt did not do the fallen stock round then farmers would have to wait for DEFRA or whoever to come and collect the fallen stock, also the fallen stock is disposed of by the dogs, it does not then become cheap nasty burgers or sausages in mcdonalds. So for everyone who is against hunting, thats your opinion, but before you start calling us country and horse people toffs and blood thirsty why dont you have a look at the bigger picture thanks.


Um...Why the defensive??? Couldnt give a toss what class you are... Class, wealth etc etc has nothing to do with this debate....The so called sport is barbaric and this attitude just goes to show how narrowminded fox hunters are! A lot of us already know the bigger picture thanks.... Maybe you should have a little more respect for people and their opinions.

Now if you really had a backbone you'd get off your 'sisters' PF account and debate the toss properly!


----------



## Staysee

Inca's Mum said:


> Staysee said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say your only out for drag hunting, but then talk about how by collecting fallen lifestock, they then are given permission to hunt on the land?
> 
> I do hope you mean the farmer gives them permission to do DRAG hunting on his ground and not anything else[/QUOTE
> 
> of course, the hunt that we hunt with abides with the law, they always get permission from the local farmers before we go drag hunting, we never intentionally go looking for foxes, however the dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to find foxes, and yes there has been known to be accidents, but the hunt followers never see, or hear about it if there has been, i do not personally go out wanting to get a fox, *it is upsetting when it happens but its what happens.*
> 
> 
> 
> If its upsetting to you, then why be involved in something that used to do it all the time and could end an innocent ride with a dead fox?
> 
> Surely there are many ways to socialise and ride horses other then it to be on some form of hunting, wether it drag or otherwise?
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> How about we hunt the people that head the hunt, perhaps use Sheps, Rotties and Dobbies...see how they like it...


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Inca's Mum said:


> however the dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to find foxes, and yes there has been known to be accidents .


*NO.....They are deliberately bred from a young age to find foxes.
*


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> Amethyst, I'm with you totally, I've got Tears running down my face....Words can't describe how I feel.... It's Heartbreaking.


Seriously I've just had to pour myself a glass of red wine :scared:

You know, the one great thing to come out of this thread is that it has made me think again about foxhunting and that it's still so very important to keep in touch with what is going on...

I think the reality of seeing the hounds "scragging" the fox and the ineptitude of the huntsman (I thought they were supposed to have some semblance of control over their dogs? No wonder the dogs kill pets) brings it all home. And the baying, it was sickening to hear, give those men and women a
medal who waded in that day. :thumbup:


----------



## JANICE199

Inca's Mum said:


> Staysee said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say your only out for drag hunting, but then talk about how by collecting fallen lifestock, they then are given permission to hunt on the land?
> 
> I do hope you mean the farmer gives them permission to do DRAG hunting on his ground and not anything else[/QUOTE
> 
> of course, the hunt that we hunt with abides with the law, they always get permission from the local farmers before we go drag hunting, we never intentionally go looking for foxes, however the dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to find foxes, and yes there has been known to be accidents, but the hunt followers never see, or hear about it if there has been, i do not personally go out wanting to get a fox, it is upsetting when it happens but its what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> *Surely if you don't agree with fox hunting you should distance yourself from those that "might" have an "accident".
> And it only happens because evil people with sick idea's of sport allow it to.*
Click to expand...


----------



## bellathemog

A little story on a fox

On 15th Dec I had a call from my vet saying my cat was pretty ill (CRF) I was gutted. I worked nights and I was at work at 7pm when I got the call. I left work at 11pm upset and I spotted this fox sitting on the path, I got out of my car walked over and watched this pretty fox for 5 minutes washing and grooming himself getting ready to settle down to sleep. His eyes were closing, I walked towards him and I was about 4 feet away he didnt move and he was very settled. I put my hand out and he came over and licked my hand I then moved my hand over and around and touched his head. He let me do it, I then watched him walk back to where he was and he curled up and went to sleep.

I as a fool I am spoke to him and was telling him about my cat and he just listened. Animals listen.

Photo of him


----------



## Robynkeating

MissShelley said:


> Um...Why the defensive??? Couldnt give a toss what class you are... Class, wealth etc etc has nothing to do with this debate....The so called sport is barbaric and this attitude just goes to show how narrowminded fox hunters are! A lot of us already know the bigger picture thanks.... Maybe you should have a little more respect for people and their opinions.
> 
> Now if you really had a backbone you'd get off your 'sisters' PF account and debate the toss properly!


i do have a backdone, hence making my own account thanks


----------



## Guest

Robynkeating said:


> i do have a backdone, hence making my own account thanks


Why wait so long...


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> Watch that, fast forward to about 4/5 mins and say how that is fair


The sick, disgusting, perverted scumbags!....and that's putting it nicely. I don't give a **** what Country that was filmed in...whether it is a real hunt or not doing that to any animal is sick, perverted and cruel!

Did you see the fear in that foxes eyes, it looks fairly young too!...I'd imagine that 'fair fox-hunting' conjures the same fear as putting the fox alive in a back...poked and prodded with a stick while it squirms and see's it's last moment alive at the mercy of those scumbags!!

Now I know what those scum at the 'pro-hunt' event meant when they said "there is nothing more exhilerating than the chase....but it feels so much better to see the blood". Many a time I have heard hunters celebrating their 'trophy kill' so if they don't get pleasure from it why feel teh need to celebrate down the local boozer?

They dress in their fancy clobber and protest so much...it's cruel, disgusting an out of place in current times. As someone has already said there are more humane ways to kill a pest...chasing it until it is tired and scared DOES NOT and WILL NOT ever ever make sence to me.

That video has ruined my day  but it has to be shown to stop that sugar coated image of jolly huntsmen on well presented horses and happy, healthy hounds!

For the record my two beagles are bred for hunting...both are from working lines. Millie in particular was bred by a hunts pack locally she has no instinct to hunt, in fact I may have to dig out the photo of both my beagles huddled up with the hamster...who may I add is the most dominant of the three


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

bellathemog said:


> A little story on a fox
> 
> On 15th Dec I had a call from my vet saying my cat was pretty ill (CRF) I was gutted. I worked nights and I was at work at 7pm when I got the call. I left work at 11pm upset and I spotted this fox sitting on the path, I got out of my car walked over and watched this pretty fox for 5 minutes washing and grooming himself getting ready to settle down to sleep. His eyes were closing, I walked towards him and I was about 4 feet away he didnt move and he was very settled. I put my hand out and he came over and licked my hand I then moved my hand over and around and touched his head. He let me do it, I then watched him walk back to where he was and he curled up and went to sleep.
> 
> I as a fool I am spoke to him and was telling him about my cat and he just listened. Animals listen.
> 
> Photo of him


*Absolutely beautiful....Both your story and the photo. *


----------



## snoopydo

bellathemog said:


> A little story on a fox
> 
> On 15th Dec I had a call from my vet saying my cat was pretty ill (CRF) I was gutted. I worked nights and I was at work at 7pm when I got the call. I left work at 11pm upset and I spotted this fox sitting on the path, I got out of my car walked over and watched this pretty fox for 5 minutes washing and grooming himself getting ready to settle down to sleep. His eyes were closing, I walked towards him and I was about 4 feet away he didnt move and he was very settled. I put my hand out and he came over and licked my hand I then moved my hand over and around and touched his head. He let me do it, I then watched him walk back to where he was and he curled up and went to sleep.
> 
> I as a fool I am spoke to him and was telling him about my cat and he just listened. Animals l
> Photo of him


He is Truly Beautiful Do you still See him? Is your Cat getting better?

You are really blessed to have had this experience..


----------



## MissShelley

Robynkeating said:


> i do have a backdone, hence making my own account thanks


Lol... Lets hear the wealth of 'informative and knowledgeable' info you have to offer then?


----------



## Robynkeating

''We are not red-faced toffs in red coats, nor are we murderers or barbarians, as our critics might suggest (not all of us, anyway). Hunting is in fact one of the most inclusive of field sports. On any given Saturday during the hunting season, you will find between 50 and 75 people following the hunt on horses, and dozens more people following from their cars, on quads or on foot, and a great many people bring their children hunting. Among our regulars this might include farmers and farmers&#8217; wives, a doctor and a dentist, a book-keeper and a computer technician, a hospital administrator and a postman, a financial adviser, a farrier, a graphic artist and the manager of a car accessories shop&#8230; Hunting is for everybody''. 
The Hunt is run and supported by people who respect The Law in its totality, and we cooperate fully with the police in every way possible in order to minimise the impact of this law on their time.


----------



## shibby

Buster's Mummy said:


> That video has ruined my day  but it has to be shown to stop that sugar coated image of jolly huntsmen on well presented horses and happy, healthy hounds!


That was my gripe with the article, typical Daily Mail


----------



## ClaireLouise

The dogs in the photos looked beautiful,


----------



## Amethyst

I am sitting here pondering (with glass of red wine in hands to calm myself after seeing hunting video) ...

What makes one person look a fox and see a beautiful animal that deserves a dignified life and death. While another looks at it and then is happy to get on their horse and see (or hear) it hounded, quite literally to a terrifying death, pulled in all direction by dogs :confused1::confused1::confused1:

Surely it can only be their compassion or lack of it towards animals


----------



## MissShelley

Robynkeating said:


> ''We are not red-faced toffs in red coats, nor are we murderers or barbarians
> 
> YAWN *SNIP*


Opinion, not stuff copied and pasted off the interweb please


----------



## Guest

Tell you what, lets make this fair, any one of those 'hunters' want to go one on one? Most likely not, would love a go though...


----------



## ClaireLouise

Robynkeating said:


> ''We are not red-faced toffs in red coats, nor are we murderers or barbarians, as our critics might suggest (not all of us, anyway). Hunting is in fact one of the most inclusive of field sports. On any given Saturday during the hunting season, you will find between 50 and 75 people following the hunt on horses, and dozens more people following from their cars, on quads or on foot, and a great many people bring their children hunting. Among our regulars this might include farmers and farmers wives, a doctor and a dentist, a book-keeper and a computer technician, a hospital administrator and a postman, a financial adviser, a farrier, a graphic artist and the manager of a car accessories shop Hunting is for everybody''.
> The Tynedale Hunt is run and supported by people who respect The Law in its totality, and we cooperate fully with the police in every way possible in order to minimise the impact of this law on their time.
> 
> Despite the prejudices and the inconsistencies in The Hunting Act, we nevertheless abide by it to the best of our ability, while continuing to carry on those horse and hound activities which the politicians encourage us to maintain. Contrary to what some passers-by appear to think, the law does not forbid us to go out into the countryside with hounds as before, or to hunt a trail, or to train young hounds to hunt, or to offer farmers a legal fox control service.
> 
> We are committed to keeping the hunt alive and well until the law is repealed. Nevertheless, everyone who comes out hunting with us is expected to carry a card reminding them of our current objectives:
> Tynedale Hunt Objectives - Season 2009 to 2010
> 
> The Masters and Committee of the Tynedale Hunt confirm that it is their objective following the implementation of the law banning hunting with dogs in England and Wales to:
> 
> 1. Act at all times within the law and according to the Hunt Constitution.
> 2. Conduct legal activities that enable the Hunt to maintain its structure and integrity with regard to our hounds, staff, supporters, subscribers and members until such time as the law is changed.
> 3. Maintain the Hunts good relationships with farmers and landowners in our hunt country and to respect and abide by their wishes at all times.
> 4. Carry out discretionary fox control within the law by arrangement with farmers and landowners. This may be necessary during a days simulated hunting.
> 5. Please note that all parties  the Hunt and its supporters, farmers and landowners  are intent on acting within the law as it stands at present. Please help us to fight for the future of hunting by continuing to support your hunt, and by observing the objectives and rules set out here.
> Hunting is the only means of fox control that leaves the vixen to raise her cubs unmolested during the spring and summer. Hunting is the only means of control carried out by people committed not to eradicating the fox, but to preserving a balanced population of these remarkable animals in the British countryside.
> 
> The ban on hunting will not make life easier or longer for foxes. It will have the reverse effect, with greater numbers of foxes killed in the countryside, and a higher proportion of the British fox population reduced to scavenging for a living in our towns and cities, prey to endemic diseases such as mange or dying an early death among the traffic. Studies of urban foxes show that even with plentiful food available and without any form of control, the average lifespan of a town fox is around 18 months.
> 
> Tynedale Hunt - Facts about Foxes


Interesting post, thanks for sharing


----------



## Staysee

robynkeating said:


> ''we are not red-faced toffs in red coats, nor are we murderers or barbarians, as our critics might suggest (not all of us, anyway). *hunting is in fact one of the most inclusive of field sports.* on any given saturday during the hunting season, you will find between 50 and 75 people following the hunt on horses, and dozens more people following from their cars, on quads or on foot, and a great many people bring their children hunting. Among our regulars this might include farmers and farmers wives, a doctor and a dentist, a book-keeper and a computer technician, a hospital administrator and a postman, a financial adviser, a farrier, a graphic artist and the manager of a car accessories shop hunting is for everybody''.
> The tynedale hunt is run and supported by people who respect the law in its totality, and we cooperate fully with the police in every way possible in order to minimise the impact of this law on their time.
> 
> Despite the prejudices and the inconsistencies in the hunting act, we nevertheless abide by it to the best of our ability, while continuing to carry on those horse and hound activities which the politicians encourage us to maintain. Contrary to what some passers-by appear to think, the law does not forbid us to go out into the countryside with hounds as before, or to hunt a trail, or to train young hounds to hunt, or to offer farmers a legal fox control service.
> 
> We are committed to keeping the hunt alive and well until the law is repealed. Nevertheless, everyone who comes out hunting with us is expected to carry a card reminding them of our current objectives:
> Tynedale hunt objectives - season 2009 to 2010
> 
> the masters and committee of the tynedale hunt confirm that it is their objective following the implementation of the law banning hunting with dogs in england and wales to:
> 
> 1. Act at all times within the law and according to the hunt constitution.
> 2. Conduct legal activities that enable the hunt to maintain its structure and integrity with regard to our hounds, staff, supporters, subscribers and members until such time as the law is changed.
> 3. Maintain the hunts good relationships with farmers and landowners in our hunt country and to respect and abide by their wishes at all times.
> 4. Carry out discretionary fox control within the law by arrangement with farmers and landowners. This may be necessary during a days simulated hunting.
> 5. Please note that all parties  the hunt and its supporters, farmers and landowners  are intent on acting within the law as it stands at present. Please help us to fight for the future of hunting by continuing to support your hunt, and by observing the objectives and rules set out here.
> Hunting is the only means of fox control that leaves the vixen to raise her cubs unmolested during the spring and summer. Hunting is the only means of control carried out by people committed not to eradicating the fox, but to preserving a balanced population of these remarkable animals in the british countryside.
> 
> The ban on hunting will not make life easier or longer for foxes. It will have the reverse effect, with greater numbers of foxes killed in the countryside, and a higher proportion of the british fox population reduced to scavenging for a living in our towns and cities, prey to endemic diseases such as mange or dying an early death among the traffic. Studies of urban foxes show that even with plentiful food available and without any form of control, the average lifespan of a town fox is around 18 months.
> 
> tynedale hunt - facts about foxes


it is not a sport!!!!


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> Seriously I've just had to pour myself a glass of red wine :scared:
> 
> You know, the one great thing to come out of this thread is that it has made me think again about foxhunting and that it's still so very important to keep in touch with what is going on...
> 
> I think the reality of seeing the hounds "scragging" the fox and the ineptitude of the huntsman (I thought they were supposed to have some semblance of control over their dogs? No wonder the dogs kill pets) brings it all home. And the baying, it was sickening to hear, give those men and women a
> medal who waded in that day. :thumbup:


Yes,, I really Hope that they get the recognition That they Deserve...You are right when you say its important to keep up with the Evil Goings-on in our World.....I do believe in Karma and I hope that These Hunters will see the error of their ways.... These Beautiful creatures need the respect they deserve.


----------



## MissShelley

snoopydo said:


> Yes,, I really Hope that they get the recognition That they Deserve...You are right when you say its important to keep up with the Evil Goings-on in our World.....I do believe in Karma and I hope that These Hunters will see the error of their ways.... These Beautiful creatures need the respect they deserve.


They never will hon, too busy with their heads stuck up their own arse to see what damage pain and misery they infilct


----------



## bellathemog

snoopydo said:


> He is Truly Beautiful Do you still See him? Is your Cat getting better?
> 
> You are really blessed to have had this experience..


I have and other staff has ( I work on a RAF Base ) he seems VERY healthy.
Bella (cat) is OK I was told she has a few weeks left, so its all I can pray for at the moment.

I did speak to my vet about the fox and a few others have said I must be a fearless lady, with that said in January I start as a "helper" at a local cats/dogs home. After the fox I feel I need to give something back to the furry things in our messed up world.


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> I am sitting here pondering (with glass of red wine in hands to calm myself after seeing hunting video) ...
> 
> *What makes one person look a fox and see a beautiful animal that deserves a dignified life and death. While another looks at it and then is happy to get on their horse and see (or hear) it hounded, quite literally to a terrifying death, pulled in all direction by dogs :confused1::confused1::confused1:*Surely it can only be their compassion or lack of it towards animals


The Answer to your question hunny is that WE Love and Adore Animals with our Hearts and Souls we can't Stand to see then Suffering.....THATS WHY we've been affected so much by looking at that video......others just don't seem to care about their feelings.....I CAN you something that is true Animals DO have more compassion than some ''people''.


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> Yes,, I really Hope that they get the recognition That they Deserve...You are right when you say its important to keep up with the Evil Goings-on in our World.....I do believe in Karma and I hope that These Hunters will see the error of their ways.... These Beautiful creatures need the respect they deserve.


Aaaah yes Karma, what goes around comes around ...

I learnt a long time ago never to wish ill on people, not a nice thing to do and ultimately a waste of time and precious energy (not to mention incense and candles  )

No the Lords of Karma can always be trusted to bring balance, in their own time and in their own way, we may not witness it, but that is not our concern ...

x


----------



## MissShelley

bellathemog said:


> A little story on a fox
> 
> On 15th Dec I had a call from my vet saying my cat was pretty ill (CRF) I was gutted. I worked nights and I was at work at 7pm when I got the call. I left work at 11pm upset and I spotted this fox sitting on the path, I got out of my car walked over and watched this pretty fox for 5 minutes washing and grooming himself getting ready to settle down to sleep. His eyes were closing, I walked towards him and I was about 4 feet away he didnt move and he was very settled. I put my hand out and he came over and licked my hand I then moved my hand over and around and touched his head. He let me do it, I then watched him walk back to where he was and he curled up and went to sleep.
> 
> I as a fool I am spoke to him and was telling him about my cat and he just listened. Animals listen.
> 
> Photo of him


Absolutely stunning, and a vivid reminder of why we feel so pasionately about this issue 

Tried repping you, but all out for today, will do so as soon as I can 

I've only ever seen a fox once, and he was breathtaking! :thumbup: Stopped a few foot away from me, when I was walking the dog... I was only about 11 or 12, and we just stood and stared at each other before he got fed up and bounded into the hedge :thumbup:


----------



## bellathemog

One word to all the fat arsed waste of a breath fox hunters out there and on here

*KARMA*
And I REALLY PRAY when it comes to you ALL THE FOXES WILL BE LAUGHING
at your fate.​


----------



## shoreset

bellathemog said:


> I have and other staff has ( I work on a RAF Base ) he seems VERY healthy.
> Bella (cat) is OK I was told she has a few weeks left, so its all I can pray for at the moment.
> 
> I did speak to my vet about the fox and a few others have said I must be a fearless lady, with that said in January I start as a "helper" at a local cats/dogs home. After the fox I feel I need to give something back to the furry things in our messed up world.


off topic but i see your in suffok, can I ask which RAF base? I can only remember one but for the life of me cant remember what its called (though are probs more than and im thinking of the wrong one lol)


----------



## piggybaker

stop it!!!! people are allowed to have a different view on life,, why get shitty you can't change it.. just carry on fighting your corner and the foxes by doing what you feel is correct. don't get nasty the thread will be closed.


----------



## JJAK

We dont have our head up our arses, 
So you cant see our side of the arguement, and you think our posts 'suck dude' 
We have compassion, have you not noticed that all of us who go hunting also own other animals? and give them the best possible life we can? 
We are not complately cold hearted. 
you may not think we give a valid arguement, the OP put this thread up for opinions, so we could all try to understand each other. 

We will NEVER agree on this subject.
For some fox hunting/drag hunting....whatever hunting their into is a way of life, their income, their means of making ends meet. It doesnt mean they should be ridiculed and tarnised with a bad name because their just trying to get on in life. For some, its all theyve ever known....myself included! 

Im not going to argue with any of you, that isnt why i posted in this thread originally. I bet most of you wont even speak to me again because im pro hunting. I have a heart, i get angry about animal crulty....

Iv said what i have to say on this subject and now im gunna leave it, not cause i cant be arsed to justify myself...but because i shouldnt have to. There are thousands of opinions floating around on this forum, the least we could do is to respect everyones and go along the lines of "each to their own"


----------



## snoopydo

bellathemog said:


> I have and other staff has ( I work on a RAF Base ) he seems VERY healthy.
> Bella (cat) is OK I was told she has a few weeks left, so its all I can pray for at the moment.
> 
> I did speak to my vet about the fox and a few others have said I must be a fearless lady, with that said in January I start as a "helper" at a local cats/dogs home. After the fox I feel I need to give something back to the furry things in our messed up world.


i'm so sorry to hear about Bella...Bless her.. Good on you for being a Helper at the Home....Animals need more people like us....I Feel the Same..I do work with Dogs as a Groomer But it's not exactly ''Helping them'' as they already have good Homes...It's a New Year Soon so maybe I'll see if I can do more..


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> I am sitting here pondering (with glass of red wine in hands to calm myself after seeing hunting video) ...
> 
> What makes one person look a fox and see a beautiful animal that deserves a dignified life and death. While another looks at it and then is happy to get on their horse and see (or hear) it hounded, quite literally to a terrifying death, pulled in all direction by dogs :confused1::confused1::confused1:
> 
> Surely it can only be their compassion or lack of it towards animals


they obviously feel no empathy towards the animal, theyre emotionally de-funct!.


----------



## ClaireLouise

piggybaker said:


> stop it!!!! people are allowed to have a different view on life,, why get shitty you can't change it.. just carry on fighting your corner and the foxes by doing what you feel is correct. don't get nasty the thread will be closed.


I agree :thumbup: :thumbup: People are allowed to be different, we all have different ideas of what is exceptable and whats not no need to make it nasty and get the thread closed

there is some really interesting info on this thread and ive enjoyed reading it PLEASE dont get it closed


----------



## bellathemog

shoreset said:


> off topic but i see your in suffok, can I ask which RAF base? I can only remember one but for the life of me cant remember what its called (though are probs more than and im thinking of the wrong one lol)


RAF MIldenhall


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> We dont have our head up our arses,
> So you cant see our side of the arguement, and you think our posts 'suck dude'
> We have compassion, have you not noticed that all of us who go hunting also own other animals? and give them the best possible life we can?
> We are not complately cold hearted.
> you may not think we give a valid arguement, the OP put this thread up for opinions, so we could all try to understand each other.
> 
> We will NEVER agree on this subject.
> For some fox hunting/drag hunting....whatever hunting their into is a way of life, their income, their means of making ends meet. It doesnt mean they should be ridiculed and tarnised with a bad name because their just trying to get on in life. For some, its all theyve ever known....myself included!
> 
> Im not going to argue with any of you, that isnt why i posted in this thread originally. I bet most of you wont even speak to me again because im pro hunting. I have a heart, i get angry about animal crulty....
> 
> Iv said what i have to say on this subject and now im gunna leave it, not cause i cant be arsed to justify myself...but because i shouldnt have to. There are thousands of opinions floating around on this forum, the least we could do is to respect everyones and go along the lines of "each to their own"


Growing up in the country, if its a pest shoot it, kill it outright....torture is is not a good thing...


----------



## Staysee

What i want to know is.....WHY?


Why fox hunt? Please dont come at me with pest control.


How can you be part of it? Even tho the law forbids actual hunting now, how can you actually be part of something which once would strike so much fear into a fox...how would you like it if it was your wife or husband being chased by a gang of men and yelling at them, threatening to kill them....or even worse, your child! What makes a fox different? Is it because it cant speak back, because its dad wont come and beat ten bells of **** out of you?

If its upsetting to see/hear a fox being hunted and/or killed....then why take part in it, either being part of the hunt or watching it?

Surely there are plenty of ways to exercise the horses and socialise other then taking the dogs out too on a drag hunt, which could end up with a fox being killed. Why just go for a ride in the countryside along a pre-planned track and eventually end up in a pub....and excercise the dogs on a farm, do agility like someone suggested, set up courses and stuff for the dogs to get them thinking, climbing etc may cost some money to set up, but its better then a drag hunt ending in a foxs death or even a family pet being mauled to death by the dogs

I just cant get my head around how anyone can support such.....a thing, even if you dont set out to hunt for a fox, that is the main objective of a hunt isnt it? If it didnt matter about the outcome of the hunt, then surely they wouldnt go out anymore?


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> they obviously feel no empathy towards the animal, theyre emotionally de-funct!.


It's worrying if that extends to other animals, which it seems to, given their attitude to the hounds and indifference to their destruction


----------



## Guest

This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view. 
There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


----------



## poohdog

*I still think they're all toffs,I mean look at these You Tube clips taken from a pro hunt video...They're obviously written by some Upper class Cambridge professor type...*









*'Huntiong'...must be Olde English spelling.*









*Must have been a professor of English eh?*

*And I didn't realise that ten years before the invasion of William the Conqueror they were painting oils of fox hunting.Maybe it's part of the Bayeux tapestry?*









*
The pro's have certainly used their top people in their campaign against the ban...*


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view.
> There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


If it was a quick humane kill, i don't think there would be a problem...but its not...


----------



## shoreset

bellathemog said:


> RAF MIldenhall


tis the one i was thinking off. Mums OH works at Molsworth (sp) and we go to mildenhall quite often, (buy most of our make up there lol)

hope your cats feeling okay

back on topic
I think that anyone who can not see the fox does suffer is more or less blind and a bid daft.

and im sure not many people would admit to be blind and daft so it must be evident that they know the fox does suffer, and if they can then continue to support the suffering of the poor fox then they cannot be truely decent people who care for animals.

ask your self this. would you like to be chased for miles by a bunch of murderous mobsters only to be torn limb from limb and have your body parts scattered? to not die quickly but slowly, agonisingly and painfully, to be aware as your leg detaches from from your body? cos thats what the fox goes through


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> We dont have our head up our arses,
> So you cant see our side of the arguement, and you think our posts 'suck dude'
> We have compassion, have you not noticed that all of us who go hunting also own other animals? and give them the best possible life we can?
> We are not complately cold hearted.
> you may not think we give a valid arguement, the OP put this thread up for opinions, so we could all try to understand each other.
> 
> We will NEVER agree on this subject.
> For some fox hunting/drag hunting....whatever hunting their into is a way of life, their income, their means of making ends meet. It doesnt mean they should be ridiculed and tarnised with a bad name because their just trying to get on in life. For some, its all theyve ever known....myself included!
> 
> Im not going to argue with any of you, that isnt why i posted in this thread originally. I bet most of you wont even speak to me again because im pro hunting. I have a heart, i get angry about animal crulty....
> 
> Iv said what i have to say on this subject and now im gunna leave it, not cause i cant be arsed to justify myself...but because i shouldnt have to. There are thousands of opinions floating around on this forum, the least we could do is to respect everyones and go along the lines of "each to their own"


*For the average person that goes fox hunting, it is NOT their income, infact i believe many have to contribute to attend the hunts. Also for those that have only ever known this way of life, why do they refuse to be educated to the cruelty of it? 
As for people not speaking to you again on here because of your beliefs, i doubt that very much. I respect the fact you have put your opinion across even though i can never accept what you do.*


----------



## JJAK

jon bda said:


> Growing up in the country, if its a pest shoot it, kill it outright....torture is is not a good thing...


Iv also seen this first hand. 
Iv taken part in both and will still continue to. 
As i grow older (and now i live in the city) i may drift from that life....but for the past 20 years i have eaten, breathed and slept 'the hunters' way...its a hard thing to just 'stop'

Id also like to say that im fully open to being educated.
Iv even been on the 'save me' webiste, sat in on talks given by antis, im doing my bit to see things from both sides. 
I got accosted by a 6ft man in a fox outfit the other day (he was a save me reprasentative) when i said i went fox hunting...well, he may as well of spat in my face.


----------



## piggybaker

poohdog said:


> *I still think they're all toffs,I mean look at these You Tube clips taken from a pro hunt video...They're obviously written by some Upper class Cambridge professor type...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *'Huntiong'...must be Olde English spelling.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Must have been a professor of English eh?*
> 
> *And I didn't realise that ten years before the invasion of William the Conqueror they were painting oils of fox hunting.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> The pro's have certainly used their top people in their campaign against the ban...*


OH no your on the case and as usal you have the info to back it up,, don't you chuckle to much you will dislodge a phlem ball


----------



## bellathemog

snoopydo said:


> Can you Explain please..........
> 
> If My Fate is measured on how much I Care.....I've nothing to be frightened of. The Foxes will be Thanking me For the protective/loving thoughts that I am sending to them.


KARMA will come to all of those who have killed foxes and other animals in a so called sport.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view.
> There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


*There's nothing i could ever learn from people that indulge in blood sports. *


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view.
> There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


I think I've learned a lot about the attitude of some of the people who hunt via this thread. I haven't changed my thoughts about them though, it's just confounded my low opinion and I mean that sincerely 

I've heard nothing really new and certainly not been convinced of the validity of hunting or that it is anything but barbaric. The video of the hounds playing "tug of war" with the exhausted fox did little to reassure me that hunting in any way serves a purpose. Certainly not one that any normal person would find remotely acceptable ...

Some of the threads have made for uncomfortable reading and to be honest made me a tad ashamed of my species. But ... others bring hope, and distressing though it was to watch, the hunt sabs defending that poor, poor fox shone out like the proverbial beacon of light!


----------



## snoopydo

bellathemog said:


> KARMA will come to all of those who have killed foxes and other animals in a so called sport.


oopp's Sorry I read that ALL wrong Sorry bellathemog  I was getting it mixed up with something else


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *There's nothing i could ever learn from people that indulge in blood sports. *


Oh but there is you are just blind to it.


----------



## Staysee

Amethyst said:


> I think I've learned a lot about the attitude of some of the people who hunt via this thread. I haven't changed my thoughts about them though, it's just confounded my low opinion and I mean that sincerely
> 
> I've heard nothing really new and certainly not been convinced of the validity of hunting or that it is anything but barbaric. The video of the hounds playing "tug of war" with the exhausted fox did little to reassure me that hunting in any way serves a purpose. Certainly not one that any normal person would find remotely acceptable ...
> 
> *Some of the threads have made for uncomfortable reading and to be honest made me a tad ashamed of my species.* But ... others bring hope, and distressing though it was to watch, the hunt sabs defending that poor, poor fox shone out like the proverbial beacon of light!


Agree.

I am ashamed of the human species, so i try to be as good a human as i can!


----------



## piggybaker

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *There's nothing i could ever learn from people that indulge in blood sports. *


BUt you would listen even if you do not believe though wouldn't you FS and respect the others point of view.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> Iv also seen this first hand.
> Iv taken part in both and will still continue to.
> As i grow older (and now i live in the city) i may drift from that life....but for the past 20 years i have eaten, breathed and slept 'the hunters' way...its a hard thing to just 'stop'
> 
> Id also like to say that im fully open to being educated.
> Iv even been on the 'save me' webiste, sat in on talks given by antis, im doing my bit to see things from both sides.
> I got accosted by a 6ft man in a fox outfit the other day (he was a save me reprasentative) when i said i went fox hunting...well, he may as well of spat in my face.


*I must say im impressed to hear you have been on the 'Save Me' site and listened to antis with the possibility of being open to being educated. *


----------



## Staysee

rona said:


> Oh but there is you are just blind to it.


What can we learn from you then?

Please teach me something


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *There's nothing i could ever learn from people that indulge in blood sports. *


We dont necessarily have to 'learn' from each other, 
Just get along! 
Theres no need to throw bitchy back stabbing comments at each other.
Just be open minded and accept other peoples opinions. rather than basically telling them their going to go to hell!


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> Iv also seen this first hand.
> Iv taken part in both and will still continue to.
> As i grow older (and now i live in the city) i may drift from that life....but for the past 20 years i have eaten, breathed and slept 'the hunters' way...its a hard thing to just 'stop'


So what you hunting now...the neighbours cats?


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view.
> There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


Sadly I've Learned enough And itwas a very Sad Tragic lesson...


----------



## bellathemog

snoopydo said:


> oopp's Sorry I read that ALL wrong Sorry bellathemog  I was getting it mixed up with something else


I thought you did.

I think we both "sing from the same song sheet":thumbup1:


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I must say im impressed to hear you have been on the 'Save Me' site and listened to antis with the possibility of being open to being educated. *


Im opened minded to everything, 
Even things i have no opinion on. 
At the end of the day i dont know whats going to happen in the next 50 years, i dont know what things, situations and types of people are going to have mahoosive impacts on my life. I dont know what in the world, around me is going to change...if you can be clued up about something even if it isnt going along with what you consider 'right and the norm' then surely it can only be considered a good thing?


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> What can we learn from you then?
> 
> Please teach me something


I don't fox hunt

What you would learn is a better way to further your cause, at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance. Learn and be more powerful


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> I got accosted by a 6ft man in a fox outfit the other day (he was a save me reprasentative) when i said i went fox hunting...well, he may as well of spat in my face.


What did you expect him to do? Give you a "high five" :lol:

To be honest I think you got of lightly ... All things considered


----------



## shibby

rona said:


> This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view.
> There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


People are talking about it and I've learned quite a few things on this thread (nothing significant I must add). I'm sure people are agreeing to disagree although it may seem a little heated. I know of people who are pro-hunting on here but I talk to them, even though I strongly oppose it. I'm sure a lot of us just can't fathom how one could wish to participate in the unnecessary suffering of a fox (or any animal), when there are more humane ways of 'culling' the population if needs be...


----------



## JJAK

jon bda said:


> So what you hunting now...the neighbours cats?


Obviously! 
im out with the russell every morning!

Dont be so silly! 
I didnt have a choice to move to the city! 
Iv been taken away from everything i knew and considerd normal...
So theres really no need to take the P*ss


----------



## snoopydo

bellathemog said:


> I thought you did.
> 
> I think we both "sing from the same song sheet":thumbup1:


YES We Do  :thumbup:


----------



## Amethyst

rona said:


> at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance.




Oh dear what a terrible inconvenience ...

Long may they continue to be a thorn in the side of those who go hunting with dogs :thumbup:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> Oh but there is you are just blind to it.





piggybaker said:


> BUt you would listen even if you do not believe though wouldn't you FS and respect the others point of view.


*Ah, so it is assumed that if i listened more to how thrilling blood sports are, i would change my mind?
Don't patronise me Rona by saying im blind to anything...Ive done more than enough research on this subject and my opinion remains the same.

Piggybaker....No-one can convince me that killing an animal in the name of sport is ok. As for respect, people need to earn that.*



JJAK said:


> We dont necessarily have to 'learn' from each other,
> Just get along!
> Theres no need to throw bitchy back stabbing comments at each other.
> Just be open minded and accept other peoples opinions. rather than basically telling them their going to go to hell!


*If you read back through my posts, i have not been bitchy...Nor have i made any such comment implying they should go to hell. *


----------



## Staysee

rona said:


> I don't fox hunt
> 
> What you would learn is a better way to further your cause, at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance. Learn and be more powerful


I dont see how antis are annoying when both anti and pros are arguing our own points, so surely we're annoying to eachother?

I have learnt alot over the years and plan to learn more as i grow older as im still young


----------



## ClaireLouise

JJAK said:


> Obviously!
> im out with the russell every morning!
> 
> Dont be so silly!
> I didnt have a choice to move to the city!
> Iv been taken away from everything i knew and considerd normal...
> So theres really no need to take the P*ss


wether I agree with fox hunting or not I dont think you deserve some of the comment you are getting. Dont let it bother u


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *If you read back through my posts, i have not been bitchy...Nor have i made any such comment implying they should go to hell. *


Whoops, sowwie! 
that was meant to be in a separate post! 
Wasnt aimed at you!!


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> Oh dear what a terrible inconvenience ...
> 
> Long may they continue to be a thorn in the side of those who go hunting with dogs :thumbup:


:thumbup: I'd prefer to be an Annoyance than A Sadistic Killer.


----------



## Guest

I'm outta here, why don't you lot read what's written instead of getting on your high horses.
I do not hunt never have never will but I can see that being on completely opposing sides is pointless.
I am judged by close minded people and I can do without that at the mo


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> Obviously!
> im out with the russell every morning!
> 
> Dont be so silly!
> I didnt have a choice to move to the city!
> Iv been taken away from everything i knew and considerd normal...
> So theres really no need to take the P*ss


Get the Beagles back on the **** while your in college, it'll be fine,,,


----------



## MissShelley

Amethyst said:


> Oh dear what a terrible inconvenience ...
> 
> Long may they continue to be a thorn in the side of those who go hunting with dogs :thumbup:


Absolutely!! Fight to protect those who can't speak out for themselves.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

rona said:


> I don't fox hunt
> 
> What you would learn is a better way to further your cause, at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance. Learn and be more powerful


I agree people need to learn better communication to get their point across in a productive manner, if not its just a bunch of mish mashed dribble with a meaning thats lost inside it.

But its does make for good entertainment! Just like trashy mags good fire starters


----------



## JJAK

jon bda said:


> Get the Beagles back on the **** while your in college, it'll be fine,,,


College...pfffttt.... how young do you think i am?


----------



## noushka05

jon bda said:


> If it was a quick humane kill, i don't think there would be a problem...but its not...


exactly...

to me fox hunting is equally as abhorrant as dog fighting is.. i will never find middle ground with those who support it because its just as inhumane and just as cruel as all the so called blood sports. No wonder the Spanish scoff at us when we accuse them of being inhumane to the bulls they use for fighting and festivals! we hardly set a good example do we yeah we sure are a 'nation of animal lovers'


----------



## snoopydo

rona said:


> Oh but there is you are just blind to it.


I'll NEVER understand Why people Do it.....So I guess I am blind .


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> Just be open minded and accept other peoples opinions. rather than basically telling them their going to go to hell!


Nobody has said that surely, hope not, personally I don't believe in the place 

I do believe in Karma though, which is QUITE a different thing, as the John Lennon song goes, it's often quicker coming around 

Good Karma, bad Karma, basically you reap what you sew ...


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> College...pfffttt.... how young do you think i am?


pppfffttt, how mature do you think you come across as???


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

rona said:


> What you would learn is a better way to further your cause, at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance. Learn and be more powerful


*I really don't think anti's need to learn how to further our cause Rona....It is in-built to find blood sports detestable. As for saying we are an annoying nuisance, that's an odd comment coming from someone who says they are against fox hunting too. Do your research and you'll see that anti's are ALREADY powerful and educated in their cause.
*


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> Nobody has said that surely, hope not, personally I don't believe in the place
> 
> I do believe in Karma though, which is QUITE a different thing, as the John Lennon song goes, it's often quicker coming around
> 
> Good Karma, bad Karma, basically you reap what you sew ...


So....if you lived a good life, never drank, smoked, comitted a crime etc...but fox hunted....then karma would be out to get you?

Im sure there are people who have comitted much worse and deserve alot worse!


----------



## Staysee

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I agree people need to learn better communication to get their point across in a productive manner, if not its just a bunch of mish mashed dribble with a meaning thats lost inside it.
> 
> But its does make for good entertainment! Just like trashy mags good fire starters


Not everyone is great with getting thier point across in a productive manner!

I myself dont profess to being good at getting my point across, often using the wrong example or not saying how i hear it in my head, so please dont use that one. Im still young and probably not fully versed in the ways of the world as people older then me, so i get my point across in the way i see fit and so do others.


----------



## JJAK

jon bda said:


> pppfffttt, how mature do you think you come across as???


I know im not fantastic at getting my point across. 
I know i struggle finding the right words at times...doesnt mean im immature.


----------



## poohdog

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *
> If you read back through my posts, i have not been bitchy...Nor have i made any such comment implying they should go to hell. *


*I ruddy hope not...I'll have to put up with all the flames,stench of crap,and Blair and Thatchers company...I don't want that lot down here too.*


----------



## springerpete

I met a group of 'Antis' on my way back from a shoot one day, they said they woukd be prepared to pepper spray my dogs to stop them working. Animal lovers, I dont think so. Politeness prevents me from repeating what I told them I would do with their pepper spray, use your own imaginations.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

JJAK said:


> Whoops, sowwie!
> that was meant to be in a separate post!
> Wasnt aimed at you!!


*That's ok....It's not my style. 
I did reply to you on a previous post stating that although i could never accept hunting i certainly wouldn't stop talking to you.....Just to add, i won't throw insults at you either. 
The only insults i throw are in retaliation...im only human after all. *


----------



## ClaireLouise

springerpete said:


> I met a group of 'Antis' on my way back from a shoot one day, they said they woukd be prepared to pepper spray my dogs to stop them working. Animal lovers, I dont think so. Politeness prevents me from repeating what I told them I would do with their pepper spray, use your own imaginations.


omg..... how horrible, and they call themselves animal lovers


----------



## poohdog

springerpete said:


> I met a group of 'Antis' on my way back from a shoot one day, they said they woukd be prepared to pepper spray my dogs to stop them working. Animal lovers, I dont think so. Politeness prevents me from repeating what I told them I would do with their pepper spray, use your own imaginations.


With or without vaseline?...


----------



## dee o gee

rona said:


> This is typical of threads like this, no one wants to learn, just shout down anyone with a percieved opposing view.
> There are lessons to be learned on both sides but if you won't talk it will never ever happen


+1 I agree.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Staysee said:


> Not everyone is great with getting thier point across in a productive manner!
> 
> I myself dont profess to being good at getting my point across, often using the wrong example or not saying how i hear it in my head, so please dont use that one. Im still young and probably not fully versed in the ways of the world as people older then me, so i get my point across in the way i see fit and so do others.


And neither do I infact Im horrible I have a speech problem as well as learning disabilities and Im horrible at writing out speeches or typing correct sentence structure.

Calling people names and starting to get nasty I dont see how that helps it just gets people backs up.


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *That's ok....It's not my style.
> I did reply to you on a previous post stating that although i could never accept hunting i certainly wouldn't stop talking to you.....Just to add, i won't throw insults at you either.
> The only insults i throw are in retaliation...im only human after all. *


Its alright, 
Im pretty used to the insults, digs, comments, snipes, jabs and all other things that get thrown at me now! 
Oh and the people stopping their cars whilst im hacking home to have a go at me....oh and honking their horn so it spooks my horse....oh and trying to run me over whilst im on my horse.....


----------



## Staysee

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> And neither do I infact Im horrible I have a speech problem as well as learning disabilities and Im horrible at writing out speeches or typing correct sentence structure.
> 
> Calling people names and starting to get nasty I dont see how that helps it just gets people backs up.


I hope i didnt call people names last night, it was late and im ill and i kinda lost control, so if i did i apologise, but name calling on the net is kinda petty and not something i would resort too unless absolutly nessecary [i cant spell either haha]

I try to get my points across about how against fox hunting i am, yet cos i dont seem to be as 'mature' in my responses, it somehow seems my posts get picked apart easier then someone who has made a real point that should get a real answer, as i've seen these posts being avoided.

I go off in odd tangents too and often loose focus of my own point XD which has happened on this thread.

I'd rather if someone was to quote my post they did it in a constructive way, not in ways i have seen and not using excuses!


----------



## RetroLemons

I dont know where i stand on this anymore, there's the two extremes of hunters and anti-hunters which blur the middle ground as already posted above. 


Its just hard to find any solid fact without one side or the other disproving it.


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> Its alright,
> Im pretty used to the insults, digs, comments, snipes, jabs and all other things that get thrown at me now!
> Oh and the people stopping their cars whilst im hacking home to have a go at me....oh and honking their horn so it spooks my horse....oh and trying to run me over whilst im on my horse.....


That sucks...but if your confusing that and the hate for the hunt...


----------



## Spellweaver

JJAK said:


> We have compassion, have you not noticed that all of us who go hunting also own other animals? and give them the best possible life we can?
> We are not complately cold hearted.
> you may not think we give a valid arguement, the OP put this thread up for opinions, so we could all try to understand each other.


You are being unfair. I am trying very hard to understand how people can claim to be animal lovers and yet condone hunting - which, whether or not you actually see it, results in an animal being chased to exhaustion and then ripped to shreds. The two ideals seem to be totally opposed to each other and, so far, no-one has been able to explain it. If the pro-hunters won't try to explain this anomaly, how can anyone possibly understand it?



JJAK said:


> Im not going to argue with any of you, that isnt why i posted in this thread originally. I bet most of you wont even speak to me again becauseim pro hunting. I have a heart, i get angry about animal crulty....


One of my best friends on this forum has grown up in a hunting family and is pro-hunting and it has not affected our friendship in the least, and it will not affect the way I speak to you or think about you either. I would, however, really, really, really like you to try to explain to me how you can care about animal cruelty and at the same time participate in one of the cruellest activities around? Please don't use the excuses that the kill doesn't happen very often or that it is instant or that you don't actually see the kill because none of them, for me, square up with being an animal lover as the kill still happens. This isn't having a go - it is a genuine attempt to try to find out how you reconcile what seem to me to be two irreconcileable points of view.


----------



## Inca's Mum

A friend of mine just said this about drag hunting 

*Well it is mostly drinking, riding and wearing silly clothing.*


----------



## bullet

bullet said:


> I dont think that will ever happen mate, Everyone has different upbringings, life experiences, places where they live, theres too many varients in it for everyone to agree or disagree


As i said in my first post on here


----------



## bellathemog

JJAK said:


> Its alright,
> Im pretty used to the insults, digs, comments, snipes, jabs and all other things that get thrown at me now!
> Oh and the people stopping their cars whilst im hacking home to have a go at me....oh and honking their horn so it spooks my horse....oh and trying to run me over whilst im on my horse.....


Poor baby eh


----------



## JJAK

jon bda said:


> That sucks...but if your confusing that and the hate for the hunt...


I only get it when im in my hunting gear!? 
Im sorry if i come across as immature and s*itty,


----------



## bullet

Inca's Mum said:


> A friend of mine just said this about drag hunting
> 
> *Well it is mostly drinking, riding and wearing silly clothing.*


i thought that was chasing men dressed up as women:lol:


----------



## ClaireLouise

bullet said:


> As i said in my first post on here


I agree with u :thumbup:


----------



## JANICE199

rona said:


> I don't fox hunt
> 
> What you would learn is a better way to further your cause, at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance. Learn and be more powerful


*I'd rather be a "nuisance" as you call it than a cold blooded murderer.
Once again i will ask, would those infavour of fox hunting feel so good if it were their pets being hounded? HYPOCRITES plain and simple.Murder is murder no matter how you wish to dress it up.*


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> So....if you lived a good life, never drank, smoked, comitted a crime etc...but fox hunted....then karma would be out to get you?
> 
> Im sure there are people who have comitted much worse and deserve alot worse!


Not for me to to judge ..

Who knows, other than ourselves what we do or deserve? Maybe that is what Karma really is, we draw our own rewards or otherwise, based on our actions?

On that video I watched of the fox being pulled in all directions, I saw little that convinced me those involved with hunting with hounds draw anything positive to themselves. I simply saw pain, terror and destruction or attempted destruction of something very beautiful ... Not things I would want in my life or energies around me *shudders*


----------



## bellathemog

Inca's Mum said:


> A friend of mine just said this about drag hunting
> 
> *Well it is mostly drinking, MURDERING, riding and wearing silly clothing.*


I've changed that for you


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> A friend of mine just said this about drag hunting
> 
> *Well it is mostly drinking, riding and wearing silly clothing.*


Given up trying to be in the 'FOR' corner then...seems your 'sister' has gone awol too...


----------



## Inca's Mum

And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:

"At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


----------



## Inca's Mum

bellathemog said:


> I've changed that for you


Note:

In my post it said DRAG HUNTING. 



jon bda said:


> Given up trying to be in the 'FOR' corner then...seems your 'sister' has gone awol too...


Did I ever say I liked the killing? No...and if you don't believe my sister and I are different people then here is proof.

Me on the floor and my sister on the chair:


----------



## dobermummy

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


is murder wrong?? because thats what fox hunting is?


----------



## shibby

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


Any more family members going to make a contribution? :lol:


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Staysee said:


> I hope i didnt call people names last night, it was late and im ill and i kinda lost control, so if i did i apologise, but name calling on the net is kinda petty and not something i would resort too unless absolutly nessecary [i cant spell either haha]
> 
> I try to get my points across about how against fox hunting i am, yet cos i dont seem to be as 'mature' in my responses, it somehow seems my posts get picked apart easier then someone who has made a real point that should get a real answer, as i've seen these posts being avoided.
> 
> I go off in odd tangents too and often loose focus of my own point XD which has happened on this thread.
> 
> I'd rather if someone was to quote my post they did it in a constructive way, not in ways i have seen and not using excuses!


Yeh its Petty though I have done it in the past and will most likely in the future we all have our child like moments.

Im thinking your twenty one right from your posts you seem mature. Between you me and the fence post I find older people to be childish lol.

Id probably annoy you then as Im one of those people that will sit through someones rant and then when their blue in the face Im like " your point being? " "huh did you say something"

I havent read the whole thread but I get were your coming from.


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


Now your mum as well as your sister?, you need more 'puters...


----------



## bellathemog

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


Tell ya mum my fox sends his love and hugs


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Spellweaver said:


> You are being unfair. I am trying very hard to understand how people can claim to be animal lovers and yet condone hunting - which, whether or not you actually see it, results in an animal being chased to exhaustion and then ripped to shreds. The two ideals seem to be totally opposed to each other and, so far, no-one has been able to explain it. If the pro-hunters won't try to explain this anomaly, how can anyone possibly understand it?
> 
> One of my best friends on this forum has grown up in a hunting family and is pro-hunting and it has not affected our friendship in the least, and it will not affect the way I speak to you or think about you either. I would, however, really, really, really like you to try to explain to me how you can care about animal cruelty and at the same time participate in one of the cruellest activities around? Please don't use the excuses that the kill doesn't happen very often or that it is instant or that you don't actually see the kill because none of them, for me, square up with being an animal lover as the kill still happens. This isn't having a go - it is a genuine attempt to try to find out how you reconcile what seem to me to be two irreconcileable points of view.


*That's how most anti's feel. We get accused of not listening to the pro's side of the debate but don't honestly get any answers from the pro's.....Nothing that holds water anyway.*


----------



## ClaireLouise

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


I agree with your Mum. I dont like hunting however I dont feel the need to belittle or name call them that see it as exceptable.


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> A friend of mine just said this about drag hunting
> 
> *Well it is mostly drinking, riding and wearing silly clothing.*


What's the rest? The occaisional killings and exploitation (dead by 5 or 7 if they make it past puppyhood) of the Foxhounds?


----------



## Inca's Mum

jon bda said:


> Now your mum as well as your sister?, you need more 'puters...


What the hell, we're having a discussion in our house about what's been started on here. Anything wrong with that?


----------



## ClaireLouise

bellathemog said:


> Tell ya mum my fox sends his love and hugs


Very mature, is that all you do? if someone disagrees you try and belittle them? that definatley wins your arguement


----------



## Robynkeating

jon bda said:


> Now your mum as well as your sister?, you need more 'puters...


nice to know that people can act mature when they are grown men and women, i am 17 and am more mature than you lot on here, everyone has an opinion, if you dont like it fine, thats your opinion, i will keep mine and you lot keep yours


----------



## shibby

ClaireLouise said:


> I agree with your Mum. I dont like hunting however I dont feel the need to belittle or name call them that see it as exceptable.


The pros aren't innocent on this front.


----------



## dobermummy

Inca's Mum said:


> What the hell, we're having a discussion in our house about what's been started on here. Anything wrong with that?


i agree with you jess, there is nothing wrong with your family joining in with the debate...


----------



## bellathemog

ClaireLouise said:


> Very mature, is that all you do? if someone disagrees you try and belittle them? that definatley wins your arguement


High horse GET OFF YOURS


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


I'm not being "funny" but now you've not only had your "sister" on here, but now you also have to quote your mum to back you up, what does that say :confused1:


----------



## ClaireLouise

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *That's how most anti's feel. We get accused of not listening to the pro's side of the debate but don't honestly get any answers from the pro's.....Nothing that holds water anyway.*


I also agree with this FS
Ive never read anything that someone who is pro hunting written that has made me change my mind and is a good strong, honest answer IMO


----------



## Inca's Mum

mumof6 said:


> i agree with you jess, there is nothing wrong with your family joining in with the debate...


It's something we feel strongly about, so surely we can voice the strong comments made in the discussion for you all. Anyway, off for my sausage sandwiches for tea


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> Note:
> 
> In my post it said DRAG HUNTING.
> 
> Did I ever say I liked the killing? No...and if you don't believe my sister and I are different people then here is proof.
> 
> Me on the floor and my sister on the chair:












This is us getting ready for sunday lunch...


----------



## ClaireLouise

Amethyst said:


> I'm not being "funny" but now you've not only had your "sister" on here, but now you also have to quote your mum to back you up, what does that say :confused1:


Its says other people are giving an opinion


----------



## Staysee

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Yeh its Petty though I have done it in the past and will most likely in the future we all have our child like moments.
> 
> Im thinking your twenty one right from your posts you seem mature. Between you me and the fence post I find older people to be childish lol.
> 
> Id probably annoy you then as Im one of those people that will sit through someones rant and then when their blue in the face Im like " your point being? " "huh did you say something"
> 
> I havent read the whole thread but I get were your coming from.


Close, im 24! hahah almost 25....made my parents feel old by seeing im almost a quarter of a century old! haha

I try to get my point across on all issues as best i can, but i find when its something i feel strongly for....like fox hunting, i can go off tangent and seem a bit insane in the membrane! haha i mean well, just this topic can make me see red and not really think before i type


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> Note:
> 
> In my post it said DRAG HUNTING.
> 
> Did I ever say I liked the killing? No...and if you don't believe my sister and I are different people then here is proof.
> 
> Me on the floor and my sister on the chair:


That's not proof! That's just you and somebody else sitting in a living room!


----------



## dobermummy

Amethyst said:


> I'm not being "funny" but now you've not only had your "sister" on here, but now you also have to quote your mum to back you up, what does that say :confused1:


it says they are having a family discussion about it and she is telling us how other members of her family think and feel on the subject


----------



## noushka05

Inca's Mum said:


> And my mum has just said this about you all because she's sat and read through the whole thread over the past hour and a half:
> 
> "At the end of the day everybody is allowed their opinion and just if it doesn't match what they think, it doesn't mean that other people are wrong."


when an animal is chased across the countryside then ripped apart by baying hounds.. im absolutley certain my views arnt wrong


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> I'm not being "funny" but now you've not only had your "sister" on here, but now you also have to quote your mum to back you up, what does that say :confused1:





ClaireLouise said:


> Its says other people are giving an opinion


Precisely ClaireLouise. I told them to read the thread, they did and felt the need to participate and get their views across. Anything wrong with that? They're just doing what we're all doing?


----------



## Spellweaver

rona said:


> I don't fox hunt
> 
> What you would learn is a better way to further your cause, at the moment antis are just an annoying nuisance. Learn and be more powerful


Erm - think you may need to take a bit of your own advice here Rona and listen more! I've certainly learned a lot from the antis who have posted here today. Calling them "just an annoying nuisance" for putting across their viewpoint is very inflammatory and is likely to lead to similar posts in retaliation - how is that listening, learning, and contributing to an amiable discussion?


----------



## dee o gee

bellathemog said:


> Poor baby eh


Thats a bit double standard isin't it? You don't agree with fox hunting yet you roll your eyes and give a sarcastic response when JJAK says she's had people purposely rising her horse and trying to run her over. 
What would you have said if one of these people succeeded and had injured JJAK or injured her horse? A very possible situation if her horse had spooked and reared or bolted.



ClaireLouise said:


> I agree with your Mum. I dont like hunting however I dont feel the need to belittle or name call them that see it as exceptable.


:thumbup:


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> That's not proof! That's just you and somebody else sitting in a living room!


How the hell is it not proof that is my big sister born on 31st December 1993! Want to add us both on Facebook too?


----------



## MissShelley

Robynkeating said:


> nice to know that people can act mature when they are grown men and women, i am 17 and am more mature than you lot on here, everyone has an opinion, if you dont like it fine, thats your opinion, i will keep mine and you lot keep yours


You have posted nothing that shows me you are any more 'mature' Than anyone else....Talking like that will only get people's backs up.


----------



## Inca's Mum

jon bda said:


> This is us getting ready for sunday lunch...


Made me smile,  but you do know the concept of drag hunting compared to fox hunting?


----------



## ClaireLouise

Inca's Mum said:


> Precisely ClaireLouise. I told them to read the thread, they did and felt the need to participate and get their views across. Anything wrong with that? They're just doing what we're all doing?


thats what forums are for :thumbup:


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Infinite circle of cat piss this is :lol:

You gotta love this place. Thought this was a pet forum :confused1: if so can people tell me how to convience my mother to let me have a hamster


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> How the hell is it not proof that is my big sister born on 31st December 1993! Want to add us both on Facebook too?


That is not proof of your sister posting on the forum though is it?


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> It's something we feel strongly about, so surely we can voice the strong comments made in the discussion for you all. Anyway, off for my sausage sandwiches for tea


I think a lot of us chunter on about debates like this which we feel passionate about. But .... If I quoted what my husband REALLY thinks about bloodsports, all **** would break lose :scared:

So I won't repeat his thoughts 

I think it's best people "fight their own corner" as it were, rather than rallying the troops for support


----------



## bellathemog

This thread is getting Off Topic,

Do we really have to see photos of two sisters to see that two posters are different people?

Next you'll want photo of the mum


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> That is not proof of your sister posting on the forum though is it?


Want me to take a picture of both of us pointing to our usernames? Or us on two different laptops? Screen captures? What do you need? :confused1: just because we're related and she gets her point across on my account doesn't mean it's her. Don't you see a difference in the way we type? She only made an account for herself since you all asked her to.


----------



## shibby

bellathemog said:


> This thread is getting Off Topic,
> 
> Do we really have to see photos of two sisters to see that two posters are different people?
> 
> Next you'll want photo of the mum


:lol: I know. It's like teen chat! Really, photos are not necessary! Plus, I'm wearing a snuggie, so I don't want to have to post me in that :lol:



Inca's Mum said:


> Want me to take a picture of both of us pointing to our usernames? Or us on two different laptops? Screen captures? What do you need? :confused1: just because we're related and she gets her point across on my account doesn't mean it's her. Don't you see a difference in the way we type? She only made an account for herself since you all asked her to.


*No.* Really not necessary!


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> So now you don't know what drag hunting is?


You think that pic has anything to do with 'drag' oh dear, get your clever sister and your mum to chip in..l


----------



## dobermummy

Inca's Mum said:


> Want me to take a picture of both of us pointing to our usernames? Or us on two different laptops? Screen captures? What do you need? :confused1: just because we're related and she gets her point across on my account doesn't mean it's her. Don't you see a difference in the way we type? She only made an account for herself since you all asked her to.


you dont need to justify yourself or sister to anyone.

the writing styles are totally different for a start...


----------



## ClaireLouise

Inca's Mum said:


> Want me to take a picture of both of us pointing to our usernames? Or us on two different laptops? Screen captures? What do you need? :confused1:


You dont need to do anything hun, im sure the VAST majority believe you  you have been here long enough and as far as im aware never told a fib yet

Oh, by the way MY OTHERHALF agrees with you too


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

noushka05 said:


> when an animal is chased across the countryside then ripped apart by baying hounds.. im absolutley certain my views arnt wrong





Spellweaver said:


> Erm - think you may need to take a bit of your own advice here Rona and listen more! I've certainly learned a lot from the antis who have posted here today. Calling them "just an annoying nuisance" for putting across their viewpoint is very inflammatory and is likely to lead to similar posts in retaliation - how is that listening, learning, and contributing to an amiable discussion?


*Totally agree and no doubt like all the other anti's on here, we are STILL waiting for an answer from the pro's about the TRUTH as to why they hunt.*


----------



## dobermummy

ClaireLouise said:


> You dont need to do anything hun, im sure the VAST majority believe you  you have been here long enough and as far as im aware never told a fib yet
> 
> *Oh, by the way MY OTHERHALF agrees with you too *


i dont believe you, he needs to come here himself and say that, then a picture to prove you are different people.... 
:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Starlite

Now now children. play nice ! 

Have you seen the difference in foxes from urban areas compared to ones in the country? The city ones are part baldy, manky skinny things

There was also a fox in a David Attenborough doc we were watching a few days ago that was STUNNING, but ive never seen one like that in the city!
Thought city ones had a better chance of getting at food as well.. ?


----------



## Guest

mumof6 said:


> i dont believe you, he needs to come here himself and say that, then a picture to prove you are different people....
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


Don't forget with a pic of todays paper
:arf:


----------



## bellathemog

dee o gee said:


> Thats a bit double standard isin't it? You don't agree with fox hunting yet you roll your eyes and give a sarcastic response when JJAK says she's had people purposely rising her horse and trying to run her over.
> What would you have said if one of these people succeeded and had injured JJAK or injured her horse? A very possible situation if her horse had spooked and reared or bolted.
> 
> :thumbup:


I "rolled my eyes" as you put it because I for one have been there, seen red jackets riding along the road and I for one have shouted my VOICE at them.

Its MY CHOICE to disagree with the MURDERING and its THEIR choice to do the MURDERING.

So if they cant deal with us who do not agree with it then keep off the horse and stay home with your feet up.

Simples


----------



## ClaireLouise

mumof6 said:


> i dont believe you, he needs to come here himself and say that, then a picture to prove you are different people....
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


LOL, if he came on he would get banned lol


----------



## poohdog

Nice dog...


----------



## dobermummy

ClaireLouise said:


> LOL, if he came on he would get banned lol


same old subtle sensitive barney then :lol:


----------



## Inca's Mum

poohdog said:


> Nice dog...


Look just because we go to hunts (note just because we refer to them as hunts doesn't mean they are fox hunts, they are drag hunts) doesn't mean we need slating.


----------



## ClaireLouise

mumof6 said:


> same old subtle sensitive barney then :lol:


Yeah just the same as ever. Mean no harm but has no tact either lol


----------



## MissShelley

mumof6 said:


> you dont need to justify yourself or sister to anyone.
> 
> the writing styles are totally different for a start...


Nobody asked her too I believe. She was the one who posted a pic of herself and her sister, as 'proof' that they are different posters! Which really proves nothing, as its just a picture of two people...


----------



## Amethyst

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Totally agree and no doubt like all the other anti's on here, we are STILL waiting for an answer from the pro's about the TRUTH as to why they hunt.*


And why they find it acceptable that middle aged (7and younger) hounds are routinely killed so they can continue to enjoy doing so 

Surely if you love dogs you can't think it's okay to treat Foxhounds like this?

I can *almost* understand how they have managed to conveniently distanced themselves from the fox .... But the DOGS that they must surely know and sometimes fuss ???? How can they be part of their destruction?


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

poohdog said:


> Nice dog...


*lol...love it. :lol: :lol: :lol:*


----------



## bellathemog

Inca's Mum said:


> Look just because we go to hunts (note just because we refer to them as hunts doesn't mean they are fox hunts, they are drag hunts) doesn't mean we need slating.


Wow the fox seems pretty interested in the telly

What you all watching?


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> LOL, if he came on he would get banned lol


ya right there thats why i wont


----------



## bellathemog

bellathemog said:


> Wow the fox seems pretty interested in the telly
> 
> What you all watching?


I see the telly behind you LOL:lol:

I need glasses


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Staysee said:


> Close, im 24! hahah almost 25....made my parents feel old by seeing im almost a quarter of a century old! haha
> 
> I try to get my point across on all issues as best i can, but i find when its something i feel strongly for....like fox hunting, i can go off tangent and seem a bit insane in the membrane! haha i mean well, just this topic can make me see red and not really think before i type


Dang I almost had it right. My mom felt old when my cousin called her auntie, told her she wasnt a day past 30 yrs give or take plus 25yrs.

Why did that earn me a wallop in the back of the head?

We all have our subjects that make us see red, I have several infact. Apparently I repeat myself when I rant. But I think some people just need to learn how to better communicate themselves to get their point across (this is not directed at you btw)


----------



## JJAK

dee o gee said:


> Thats a bit double standard isin't it? You don't agree with fox hunting yet you roll your eyes and give a sarcastic response when JJAK says she's had people purposely rising her horse and trying to run her over.
> What would you have said if one of these people succeeded and had injured JJAK or injured her horse? A very possible situation if her horse had spooked and reared or bolted.
> 
> :thumbup:


Id just like to say my horse had its leg broken earlier this year, 
Vets came to the conclusion it was either a 'deliberate act' or 'a coinsidence' after a post mortom.


----------



## poohdog

Inca's Mum said:


> Look just because we go to hunts (note just because we refer to them as hunts doesn't mean they are fox hunts, they are drag hunts) doesn't mean we need slating.


For your info...I just fancied sticking a fox next to you.I've not even read half the thread...just got bored.....so there!!!...no slating at all.


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> And why they find it acceptable that middle aged (7and younger) hounds are routinely killed so they can continue to enjoy doing so
> 
> Surely if you love dogs you can't think it's okay to treat Foxhounds like this?
> 
> I can *almost* understand how they have managed to conveniently distanced themselves from the fox .... But the DOGS that they must surely know and sometimes fuss ???? How can they be part of their destruction?


i just dont understand the pro's mentality full stop...some claim to be dog lovers yet they seem to be able to turn a blind eye to the cruelty towards the hounds:confused1:


----------



## Starlite

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Totally agree and no doubt like all the other anti's on here, we are STILL waiting for an answer from the pro's about the TRUTH as to why they hunt.*


Im PRO HUNTING, i cant say just for food as ive also shot rats etc.

I have shot rabbits for the pot but never anything bigger as i simply dont feel confident enough and would prefer to be under the wing of an experienced hunter, but few and far between.

So thats why im pro


----------



## dobermummy

JJAK said:


> Id just like to say my horse had its leg broken earlier this year,
> Vets came to the conclusion it was either a 'deliberate act' or 'a coinsidence' after a post mortom.


*shakes head*

see thats not an act of an animal lover either :frown:

im sorry about your horse


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> Id just like to say my horse had its leg broken earlier this year,
> Vets came to the conclusion it was either a 'deliberate act' or 'a coinsidence' after a post mortom.


Mmm.... That's hardly conclusive evedence is it. It was just as likely a kick from another horse poor thing, not uncommon unfortunately


----------



## Inca's Mum

poohdog said:


> For your info...I just fancied sticking a fox next to you.I've not even read half the thread...just got bored.....so there!!!...no slating at all.


Yeah it had us all laughing here, my sister was in stitches! :lol: thanks for giving us a laugh through this :thumbup:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

poohdog said:


> For your info...I just fancied sticking a fox next to you.I've not even read half the thread...just got bored.....so there!!!...no slating at all.


*You mean that wasn't a REAL fox? 
And fancy you doing that....lol  :lol: *


----------



## dee o gee

JJAK said:


> Id just like to say my horse had its leg broken earlier this year,
> Vets came to the conclusion it was either a 'deliberate act' or 'a coinsidence' after a post mortom.


Thats sad.  As I said double standards if it was indeed deliberate.  Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you can take it out on the animals just doing what their are told to do (the horses and the hounds).


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> So....if you lived a good life, never drank, smoked, comitted a crime etc...but fox hunted....then karma would be out to get you?
> 
> Im sure there are people who have comitted much worse and deserve alot worse!


I suppose it's relative karma...if you drink being drowned by a giant Gin and Tonic would be rather appealing...I suppose if you smoked being hit around the head with a giant *** (I am picturing the gauntlet in gladiator) would be pretty fun...if you committed adultery being smothered by a giant pair of tits or smacked with a huge willy would be quite appropriate...NOT sure however that I'd like to be chased over rough terrain, forest, moorland running out of breath while some crazed lunatic hounds chase after me followed by bloodthirsty huntspeople (see I'm even politically correct  ) and several more spectators on horseback...to suddenly have several teeth sunk into me while I fight for my life.

Really though I hated the thought of hunting but after reading all the opinions here tonight I think I have changed my opinions and am open to more viewpoints. You pro-people have really opened my mind!!

Yeah giant ****, drowned in gin and tonic, a giant pair of tits and a large willy you can tell I live in dreamland :lol: :thumbup:

Seriously though this thread has kept me busy all night


----------



## Inca's Mum

Buster's Mummy said:


> Really though I hated the thought of hunting but after reading all the opinions here tonight I think I have changed my opinions and am open to more viewpoints. You pro-people have really opened my mind!!


:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

There are four sides to the coin here!

There are those that have seen the dirty work that Mr fox is capable of! And will go to extreme lenghts to protect their livestock - albeit many will say that this is done out of necessity to LIVE!

Then there are those that have been brainwashed to believe that foxes are vermin and should be wiped out! This bracket would be those 'toffs' that enjoy the thrill of the hunt!! 

Then we have the animal rights mob - some of who are genuine animal lovers - others who I cannot for the life of me see that as they are prepared to put the lives of both dogs and horses in danger for their cause!

Then finally we have those that do not believe in causing any unnescisary suffering to ANY animal which running to fox to exhaustion to rip it to bits is!

Would I be prepared to harm Mr Fox to protect my livestock or my animals ! Yes I would! 

Would I torture him , by hunting him' to achieve this - most DEFINATELY not! 

Nuffing more to say!


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> Mmm.... That's hardly conclusive evedence is it. It was just as likely a kick from another horse poor thing, not uncommon unfortunately


He was turned out on his own, (due to being a rig!) 
In a 2 acre field, nothing else in the field except his water trough....

Now you tell me how he got kicked?


----------



## Amethyst

Starlite said:


> Im PRO HUNTING, i cant say just for food as ive also shot rats etc.


*shudders* did you find it enjoyable. Not being personal, but if I met someone who in conversation mentioned they shot rats I'd run a mile :scared::lol:

I guess you must live on a farm or have stables, hope so, otherwise ... :arf:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Starlite said:


> Im PRO HUNTING, i cant say just for food as ive also shot rats etc.
> 
> I have shot rabbits for the pot but never anything bigger as i simply dont feel confident enough and would prefer to be under the wing of an experienced hunter, but few and far between.
> 
> So thats why im pro


*I actually have nothing against humane hunting when it is to be eaten. But blood sports like fox hunting just for the hell of it are totally different and the animal isn't even eaten after being killed...not to mention the method in which they are killed.*


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Ok this has nothing to do with hunting. But you know the raw food and dry food debate with cats. People can have big difference in thoughts on that to.

I was at the grocery store to pick my cats up a meaty treat for them from the meat dept. A lady over heard what we were saying (my mom and I) while looking at the steaks. She then started saying how I shouldnt feed my cats rawr and that I should feed them something from the pet aisle. I told her I had looked into and researched but nope she just going on and on and on.

Now Im one of those really shy people so she just backed me into a corner, I even tried walking away but she kept fallowing us, I finally tossed the streaks back on the shelf and left the store. 

Some people just wont let you stand your corner and hear your piece. My poor mom was bewildered.


----------



## dee o gee

Buster's Mummy said:


> I suppose it's relative karma...if you drink being drowned by a giant Gin and Tonic would be rather appealing...I suppose if you smoked being hit around the head with a giant *** (I am picturing the gauntlet in gladiator) would be pretty fun...if you committed adultery being *smothered by a giant pair of tits or smacked with a huge willy would be quite appropriate*...


:lol: :lol: :lol:



Buster's Mummy said:


> NOT sure however that I'd like to be chased over rough terrain, forest, moorland running out of breath while some crazed lunatic hounds chase after me followed by bloodthirsty huntspeople (see I'm even politically correct  ) and several more spectators on horseback...to suddenly have several teeth sunk into me while I fight for my life.
> 
> *Really though I hated the thought of hunting but after reading all the opinions here tonight I think I have changed my opinions and am open to more viewpoints. You pro-people have really opened my mind!!*
> Yeah giant ****, drowned in gin and tonic, a giant pair of tits and a large willy you can tell I live in dreamland :lol: :thumbup:
> 
> Seriously though this thread has kept me busy all night


:thumbup:


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> There are four sides to the coin here!
> 
> There are those that have seen the dirty work that Mr fox is capable of! And will go to extreme lenghts to protect their livestock - albeit many will say that this is done out of necessity to LIVE!
> 
> Then there are those that have been brainwashed to believe that foxes are vermin and should be wiped out! This bracket would be those 'toffs' that enjoy the thrill of the hunt!!
> 
> Then we have the animal rights mob - some of who are genuine animal lovers - others who I cannot for the life of me see that as they are prepared to put the lives of both dogs and horses in danger for their cause!
> 
> Then finally we have those that do not believe in causing any unnescisary suffering to ANY animal which running to fox to exhaustion to rip it to bits is!
> 
> Would I be prepared to harm Mr Fox to protect my livestock or my animals ! Yes I would!
> 
> Would I torture him , by hunting him' to achieve this - most DEFINATELY not!
> 
> Nuffing more to say!


i agree :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: would give u rep if i had some left


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> He was turned out on his own, (due to being a rig!)
> In a 2 acre field, nothing else in the field except his water trough....
> 
> Now you tell me how he got kicked?


No, if what you say is true  But it's still not conclusive is it 

What are you suggesting an "anti" followed you to where you keep your horse, then crept back and deliberately broke it's leg 

Please, this rather smacks of desperation 

Something not quite right as it were ...


----------



## Inca's Mum

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Some people just wont let you stand your corner and hear your piece.


It's not fair is it?



Amethyst said:


> No, if what you say is true  But it's still not conclusive is it
> 
> What are you suggesting an "anti" followed you to where you keep your horse, then crept back and deliberately broke it's leg
> 
> Please, this rather smacks of desperation
> 
> Something not quite right as it were ...


You're touching on a bit of a sensitive topic here, and being sarcastic or whatever about her horse dying isn't that funny and is pretty rude. A little off topic but still. My sister's first horse broke it's leg from a horse kick and had to be put down, and I can still remember the screams through the house when she found out so...tread carefully  it may not have been an anti but no need to call her desperate as if she's making things up.


----------



## Guest

Spellweaver said:


> Erm - think you may need to take a bit of your own advice here Rona and listen more! I've certainly learned a lot from the antis who have posted here today. Calling them "just an annoying nuisance" for putting across their viewpoint is very inflammatory and is likely to lead to similar posts in retaliation - how is that listening, learning, and contributing to an amiable discussion?


  
I meant to the huntsmen not me


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> There are four sides to the coin here!
> 
> There are those that have seen the dirty work that Mr fox is capable of! And will go to extreme lenghts to protect their livestock - albeit many will say that this is done out of necessity to LIVE!
> 
> Then there are those that have been brainwashed to believe that foxes are vermin and should be wiped out! This bracket would be those 'toffs' that enjoy the thrill of the hunt!!
> 
> Then we have the animal rights mob - some of who are genuine animal lovers - others who I cannot for the life of me see that as they are prepared to put the lives of both dogs and horses in danger for their cause!
> 
> Then finally we have those that do not believe in causing any unnescisary suffering to ANY animal which running to fox to exhaustion to rip it to bits is!
> 
> Would I be prepared to harm Mr Fox to protect my livestock or my animals ! Yes I would!
> 
> Would I torture him , by hunting him' to achieve this - most DEFINATELY not!
> 
> Nuffing more to say!


Bang on!

I shall send some rep your way if it lets me.


----------



## bellathemog

Can someone post up a photo of Basil Brush please to lighten the mood:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

> Originally Posted by Buster's Mummy
> Really though I hated the thought of hunting but after reading all the opinions here tonight I think I have changed my opinions and am open to more viewpoints. You pro-people have really opened my mind!!





Inca's Mum said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:


Really would be :thumbup: if I meant it I don't sorry - nothing has been said on this thread that makes me think any more of hunts people, spectators or supporters :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## noushka05

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I actually have nothing against humane hunting when it is to be eaten. But blood sports like fox hunting just for the hell of it are totally different and the animal isn't even eaten after being killed...not to mention the method in which they are killed.*


i totally agree, those two examples of hunting are incomparable


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> No, if what you say is true  But it's still not conclusive is it
> 
> What are you suggesting an "anti" followed you to where you keep your horse, then crept back and deliberately broke it's leg
> 
> Please, this rather smacks of desperation
> 
> Something not quite right as it were ...


Dear god no, 
I would NEVER pin it on an anti, 
Iv got no conclusive evidence to say it was an anti....so i wouldnt accuse them....believe it or not im not like that! 
I was mearly adding what happened this year into the thread...where it was relevent to someone saying my horse could get hurt!


----------



## Staysee

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Dang I almost had it right. My mom felt old when my cousin called her auntie, told her she wasnt a day past 30 yrs give or take plus 25yrs.
> 
> Why did that earn me a wallop in the back of the head?
> 
> We all have our subjects that make us see red, I have several infact. Apparently I repeat myself when I rant. But I think some people just need to learn how to better communicate themselves to get their point across (this is not directed at you btw)


haha i like it! I always pick on my parents age, i can!

I do repeat myself too, i guess its just something that happens when you see red, all common sense flies out the window and you keep going until bed time [or other things]

I do read what the pro hunters put up and i do try and see things from thier side, but unfortunatly i cant!

I understand the whole tradition thing, everyone has traditions...wether its a small family thing or something larger....but i dont believe all traditions should be kept, like fox hunting....we are in a different world now. There is no need for hunting for pleasure...why not like someone suggested, play call of duty if you wanna get some pleasure from that side of things, or a shoot em up game!

Plenty of people socialise everyday without the need for rampaging across countryside.

I cannot see the pros side tho, as to me it is murder in my eyes, even tho the huntsmen are not directly catching the fox with thier hands and killing it, they are training the dog to do it for them...its wrong and should be banished to the history books!


----------



## dee o gee

Buster's Mummy said:


> Really would be :thumbup: if I meant it I don't sorry - nothing has been said on this thread that makes me think any more of hunts people, spectators or supporters :thumbup: :thumbup:


Then why did you say it? :confused1:


----------



## Inca's Mum

Buster's Mummy said:


> Really would be :thumbup: if I meant it I don't sorry - nothing has been said on this thread that makes me think any more of hunts people, spectators or supporters :thumbup: :thumbup:


Ah well it would've been nice anyway to know somebody had opened their minds a little more, a few of us 'pros' have been PM'ing over the course of the night and to say the least, you've made us think


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> Would I torture him , by hunting him' to achieve this - most DEFINATELY not!
> 
> Nuffing more to say!


Yes, it's the torture part that many of us find abhorrent


----------



## Starlite

Amethyst said:


> *shudders* did you find it enjoyable. Not being personal, but if I met someone who in conversation mentioned they shot rats I'd run a mile :scared::lol:
> 
> I guess you must live on a farm or have stables, hope so, otherwise ... :arf:


I have helped out on friends land with rats, i dont go randomly looking for them lol!
Shooting rats i admit while not "enjoyable" does give you a measure of satisfaction knowing you've taken some of the wee buggers out. Pet rats i love (i know im a hypocrite!) but a wild one will think nothing off trying to chew your toe off via your steel toe cap boots, believe me! 

Shooting rabbits i enjoy as i know the meat is gonna be great and the animal has had a great and free life, better than most farmed animals :thumbup:



FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I actually have nothing against humane hunting when it is to be eaten. But blood sports like fox hunting just for the hell of it are totally different and the animal isn't even eaten after being killed...not to mention the method in which they are killed.*


ah ok i get you now


----------



## Guest

dee o gee said:


> Then why did you say it? :confused1:


It's called sarcasm...look it up!! or read the whole post not cherry pick the bits you like. We could all do well to read whole posts and not assume as thats when topics get heated!! :thumbup:


----------



## Tapir

bellathemog said:


> I "rolled my eyes" as you put it *because I for one have been there, seen red jackets riding along the road and I for one have shouted my VOICE at them.*
> Its MY CHOICE to disagree with the MURDERING and its THEIR choice to do the MURDERING.
> 
> So if they cant deal with us who do not agree with it then keep off the horse and stay home with your feet up.
> 
> Simples


Oh that's a good idea 
Do you realise how dangerous that is?

Why should they not ride out in red jackets just because YOU don't agree with it?
How do you know those people weren't hacking to a competition? Show jumping? What a stupid thing to do.


----------



## poohdog

bellathemog said:


> Can someone post up a photo of Basil Brush please to lighten the mood:thumbup:


What about a happy hippo?...


----------



## shibby

I think certain people are mistaking others having an answer for them as not letting them have their point of view. Enough with the self-pity, you can all get your points across, just don't expect it to go down well with everyone. Besides, the original post all those pages back was about the repeal which would involve the hunting of foxes, it's not a drag hunt specific thread! 



Inca's Mum said:


> Ah well it would've been nice anyway to know somebody had opened their minds a little more, *a few of us 'pros' have been PM'ing over the course of the night and to say the least, you've made us think *


I'm sure you have, I've stumbled on a few *visitors messages*


----------



## bellathemog

JJAK said:


> Dear god no,
> I would NEVER pin it on an anti,
> Iv got no conclusive evidence to say it was an anti....so i wouldnt accuse them....believe it or not im not like that!
> I was mearly adding what happened this year into the thread...where it was relevent to someone saying my horse could get hurt!


Trouble is like what I said in my post Ive gotten out of my car and gave some verbal ( and got some back i'll also say ) but most of us "animal" lovers WOULD NEVER TAKE IT OUT ON THE HORSE OR HOUNDS, its the murders riding them (horses not the hounds as that WOULD be funny to see) that is the issue.

People that take it out on the horses and hounds are SCUM in my book.


----------



## Inca's Mum

shibby said:


> I'm sure you have, I've stumbled on a few


Not visitor messages, private messages so I'm pretty positive you haven't stumbled across a few


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> Ah well it would've been nice anyway to know somebody had opened their minds a little more, a few of us 'pros' have been PM'ing over the course of the night and to say the least, you've made us think


Oh I have opened my mind just not enough to change the attitudes I have, like I'd imagine the opinions of anti's have not changed your views.

I am sure if I PM'ed a few antis we'd be able to bitch behind backs too - but am happy to leave discussion to the discussion board


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> It's not fair is it?
> You're touching on a bit of a sensitive topic here, and being sarcastic or whatever about her horse dying isn't that funny and is pretty rude. A little off topic but still. My sister's first horse broke it's leg from a horse kick and had to be put down, and I can still remember the screams through the house when she found out so...tread carefully  it may not have been an anti but no need to call her desperate as if she's making things up.


I am just saying that there is nothing conclusive and as such it is very unfair to place the death of this horse at someone who is anti hunting's feet.
There is no proof, from what has been said, simple conjecture.

Don't go out of your way to try and cause an issue here ... Sorry about your "sisters" horse, but again, this has nothing to do with my post


----------



## bellathemog

tapir said:


> oh that's a good idea
> Do you realise how dangerous that is?
> 
> Why should they not ride out in red jackets just because you don't agree with it?
> How do you know those people weren't hacking to a competition? Show jumping? What a stupid thing to do.


because they had a pack of hounds and were followed by anti's with ban fox hunting signs

I'm not stupid but thanks for your concern.


----------



## shibby

Inca's Mum said:


> Not visitor messages, private messages so I'm pretty positive you haven't stumbled across a few


Of course visitor messages and they were extremely juvenile


----------



## Inca's Mum

Buster's Mummy said:


> I am sure if I PM'ed a few antis we'd be able to bitch behind backs too - but am happy to leave discussion to the discussion board


*hate to admit it...*

but that thread has made me think...


----------



## bellathemog

poohdog said:


> What about a happy hippo?...


Can we have a cat please, tabby with red collar


----------



## Inca's Mum

shibby said:


> Of course visitor messages and they were extremely juvenile


Well what do you expect from a 14 year old


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Inca's Mum said:


> It's not fair is it?


Nope its not.



Staysee said:


> haha i like it! I always pick on my parents age, i can!
> 
> I do repeat myself too, i guess its just something that happens when you see red, all common sense flies out the window and you keep going until bed time [or other things]
> 
> I do read what the pro hunters put up and i do try and see things from thier side, but unfortunatly i cant!
> 
> I understand the whole tradition thing, everyone has traditions...wether its a small family thing or something larger....but i dont believe all traditions should be kept, like fox hunting....we are in a different world now. There is no need for hunting for pleasure...why not like someone suggested, play call of duty if you wanna get some pleasure from that side of things, or a shoot em up game!
> 
> Plenty of people socialise everyday without the need for rampaging across countryside.
> 
> I cannot see the pros side tho, as to me it is murder in my eyes, even tho the huntsmen are not directly catching the fox with thier hands and killing it, they are training the dog to do it for them...its wrong and should be banished to the history books!


Or pick on their loss of hair :scared:

I feel sorry for the riders for what they go through, but I dont see how hurting or killing their horses or dogs helps any? To be honest Id be more pissed at the person who did that instead of the fox hunting. But thats just me.

I als feel bad for the foxes as well. Im sitting the fence post watching the food fight.

I dont get why some people need to use drugs or would rather go out drinking but hey whatever floats your boat.

I went pants shopping last night as I have one pair of pants, didnt buy anything. Went into the pet shop and wanted to buy so much stuff! lol just my luck.

You can get a dino shooting game.


----------



## Staysee

Inca's Mum said:


> Ah well it would've been nice anyway to know somebody had opened their minds a little more, a few of us 'pros' have been PM'ing over the course of the night and to say the least, you've made us think


Very mature PM'in behind peoples backs

If you have something to say, please say it in the thread....


----------



## shibby

Inca's Mum said:


> Well what do you expect from a 14 year old


Exactly...


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I am just saying that there is nothing conclusive and as such it is very unfair to place the death of this horse at someone who is anti hunting's feet.
> There is no proof, from what has been said, simple conjecture.
> 
> Don't go out of your way to try and cause an issue here ... Sorry about your "sisters" horse, but again, this has nothing to do with my post


Horses have been hurt though following the actions of the 'anti' call em what you want mob!

My ex cleaner played a big part in animal rights groups = peta - whatever! and you know what!! She could NOT stand dogs!


----------



## Inca's Mum

Staysee said:


> Very mature PM'in behind peoples backs
> 
> If you have something to say, please say it in the thread....


We weren't bitching about any members tyvm, discussing the topic since we can't state much of our views on here without getting our heads ripped off. Seems we can't do anything right, post our views here and we get told off, PM between ourselves with our views and get old off


----------



## Tapir

actually, we don't bitch behind your backs.

sad that proof is needed...


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Staysee said:


> Very mature PM'in behind peoples backs
> 
> If you have something to say, please say it in the thread....


*Exactly...Totally agree. That's why i never play the PM game. What i have to say i say on the open forum for all to see. *


----------



## Staysee

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Nope its not.
> 
> Or pick on their loss of hair :scared:
> 
> I feel sorry for the riders for what they go through, but I dont see how hurting or killing their horses or dogs helps any? To be honest Id be more pissed at the person who did that instead of the fox hunting. But thats just me.
> 
> I als feel bad for the foxes as well. Im sitting the fence post watching the food fight.
> 
> I dont get why some people need to use drugs or would rather go out drinking but hey whatever floats your boat.
> 
> I went pants shopping last night as I have one pair of pants, didnt buy anything. Went into the pet shop and wanted to buy so much stuff! lol just my luck.
> 
> You can get a dino shooting game.


I cant pick on hair loss! haha

I wouldnt ever physically hurt an animal unless it threatened me, a family or friend or one of my pets....if i ever came across a hunt and it included a fox, i would just try and pull he dogs away and try and help the fox escape, or get it into a safe place

I dont blaim the dogs, they arnt the ones who are training themselves to hunt, its the huntsmen....i dont blaim the horses, they are just vehicles for the huntsmen

I am friends with pro's, i work with one and we've had heated debates about it, but im still friends with him, i gave him as good as i got and we just agreed never to bring it up again as we now know how we both feel, but it wont stop me from making comments if somethings wound me up!


----------



## Staysee

Inca's Mum said:


> We weren't bitching about any members tyvm, discussing the topic since we can't state much of our views on here without getting our heads ripped off. Seems we can't do anything right, post our views here and we get told off, PM between ourselves with our views and get old off





Tapir said:


> actually, we don't bitch behind your backs.
> 
> sad that proof is needed...


Where did i say in my post that you were bitching about us?


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Exactly...Totally agree. That's why i never play the PM game. What i have to say i say on the open forum for all to see. *


you and me both!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: learn that little lesson last time around!


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> We weren't bitching about any members tyvm, discussing the topic since we can't state much of our views on here without getting our heads ripped off. Seems we can't do anything right, post our views here and we get told off, PM between ourselves with our views and get old off


You have been slagging Jon and I off over VM though  Mumof6 it's Shelley! with a E! If your going to slag me offd then at least get my name right 

We aren't ganging up, we are posting our own individual opinions


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Inca's Mum said:


> We weren't bitching about any members tyvm, discussing the topic since we can't state much of our views on here without getting our heads ripped off. Seems we can't do anything right, post our views here and we get told off, PM between ourselves with our views and get old off


*Ive yet to hear a pro hunter state any real reason for their choice of activity.*


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> You have been slagging Jon and I off over VM though  Mumof6 it's Shelley! with a E! If your going to slag me offd then at least get my name right
> 
> We aren't ganging up, we are posting our own individual opinions


Mumof6 was asking if I was okay since I was getting you two on my back, and that's pretty considerate regarding my age don't you think? Never slagged you off, she just asked how I was doing because of how heated it has been.


----------



## Inca's Mum

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Ive yet to hear a pro hunter state any real reason for their choice of activity.*


Because drag hunting is fun.

THERE'S THE REAL REASON.

*prepares for abuse*


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

DoubleTrouble said:


> you and me both!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: learn that little lesson last time around!


*Granted it makes us more likely to be in line for a ban or telling off...lol...But at least i'd rather be open with my views/opinions. *


----------



## shibby

Inca's Mum said:


> We weren't bitching about any members tyvm, discussing the topic since we can't state much of our views on here without getting our heads ripped off. Seems we can't do anything right, post our views here and we get told off, PM between ourselves with our views and get old off


You're posting your views, people are disagreeing with them, you are not being told off  It is called a debate. And you were bitching, might not have been user specific, but you were bitching about 'the anti's and their stupidity'  At least cover your tracks or stop playing the innocent :lol:


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> We weren't bitching about any members tyvm, discussing the topic since we can't state much of our views on here without getting our heads ripped off. Seems we can't do anything right, post our views here and we get told off, PM between ourselves with our views and get old off


Don't forget members can see whats posted via VM...oh dear, wheres your imaginary family now. At least have the balls to bitch on the forum...


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Horses have been hurt though following the actions of the 'anti' call em what you want mob!
> 
> My ex cleaner played a big part in animal rights groups = peta - whatever! and you know what!! She could NOT stand dogs!


well i know plenty of 'anti's' Sue and dont know of a single one that would harm or condone harming a horse or any animal for that matter because like me they love all species of animal and blame only the hunters for the cruelty inflicted on the foxes.


----------



## MissShelley

Inca's Mum said:


> Mumof6 was asking if I was okay since I was getting you two on my back, and that's pretty considerate regarding my age don't you think? Never slagged you off, she just asked how I was doing because of how heated it has been.


Um no, not on your back, just posting opinions like everybody else...At least when I say stuff I say it to peoples faces..... Yeah, you bitch about maturity! I have nothing off you that says your anything but.


----------



## Guest

Right guys! I'm going out for popcorn!
Place your orders now please!:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Inca's Mum

jon bda said:


> Don't forget members can see whats posted via VM...oh dear, wheres your imaginary family now. At least have the balls to bitch on the forum...


I know they can see and well to tell you, my sister is sitting on the sofa near me watching 'The Miracle Baby of Haiti', my mum is in the kitchen and my brother is sitting on his xbox in the conservatory


----------



## ClaireLouise

Inca's Mum said:


> Mumof6 was asking if I was okay since I was getting you two on my back, and that's pretty considerate regarding my age don't you think? Never slagged you off, she just asked how I was doing because of how heated it has been.


Dont worry about it, Im sure you werent slagging anyone off, and im 100% mumof6 wouldnt be slagging anyone off she isnt like that, it was a bit heated and quite a lot of the comments were aimed at you, it was nice she checked u were ok.


----------



## Inca's Mum

MissShelley said:


> Um no, not on your back, just posting opinions like everybody else...At least when I say stuff I say it to peoples faces..... Yeah, you bitch about maturity! I have nothing off you that says your anything but.


You're right, I'm not mature. I'm 14. I haven't experienced life as much as the rest of you.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Inca's Mum said:


> Because drag hunting is fun.
> 
> THERE'S THE REAL REASON.
> 
> *prepares for abuse*


*Fun...as in you may accidently have the hounds kill a fox?
Why Drag hunt and not just go out riding?*


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Right guys! I'm going out for popcorn!
> Place your orders now please!:thumbup::thumbup:


Oh pop corn yes please, and Ice cream


----------



## Tapir

If you are bothered, VMs are there for all to see. and to stop the paranoia, i have print screened the single PM I sent tonight.

No bitching.


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> I know they can see and well to tell you, my sister is sitting on the sofa near me watching 'The Miracle Baby of Haiti', my mum is in the kitchen and my brother is sitting on his xbox in the conservatory


And this is all that is wrong here, its been a good thread, now spoiled...want to get it off your chest, then post in the thread...does it only matter how young you are when things don't go your way...have the balls to say it ffs...


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> well i know plenty of 'anti's' Sue and dont know of a single one that would harm or condone harming a horse or any animal for that matter because like me they love all species of animal and blame only the hunters for the cruelty inflicted on the foxes.


well I don't personally know a person that HAS hurt a horse Noush! but I KNOW they have been hurt!

And the girl I were talking about IS an animal lover, she would pick up hedgehogs, birds, cats anytthing! She did a heck of a lot of work for ALL animal charity! BUT she never liked dogs! she told me! NOT saying she would have hurt one though and I know she was very active with the place down towards Oxford! And my Manuex didn't like her either!! so that speaks volumes to me!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

noushka05 said:


> well i know plenty of 'anti's' Sue and dont know of a single one that would harm or condone harming a horse or any animal for that matter because like me they love all species of animal and blame only the hunters for the cruelty inflicted on the foxes.


*Totally agree.
If ANYONE condoned such actions they most certainly would not be a true anti. We love and respect all animals. After all, it's not the horses or hounds fault for what the hunters are putting them through.*


----------



## Inca's Mum

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *
> Why Drag hunt and not just go out riding?*


Drag hunting is still going out riding? I don't ride, it's my sister and mum. My sister says: "Drag hunting is basically a big hack for your horse and it's a different experience and atmosphere compared to just going across local fields with a few other yard people and their horses"


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> Dont worry about it, Im sure you werent slagging anyone off, and im 100% mumof6 wouldnt be slagging anyone off she isnt like that, it was a bit heated and quite a lot of the comments were aimed at you, it was nice she checked u were ok.


Sorry but if you saw your name on someones VM accusing you of 'ganging' up on people wouldn't it get your back up????

Everybody else has kept their opinions on thread and hasn't felt the need to go behind peoples backs.

As for checking she is ok, why?? If you post on a debate like this then you expect to give as good as you get!


----------



## JJAK

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Fun...as in you may accidently have the hounds kill a fox?
> Why Drag hunt and not just go out riding?*


Sowwie for the late response, was eating my tea!

Ok, iv been talking to spellweaver over PM...
Iv been tryna explain it to her....

Other than the fact im an evil murdering cow....
up to date i havnt found a single equestrian activity that can create the same atmosphere, adrenaline rush and heart pounding responce as DRAG hunting does. 
There is NOTHING i have found which can give you the thrill of riding with 70+ horses and a pack of hounds....
If they could and did recreate this, 4 times a week...without foxes getting hurt in the process im sure we would all go...but they dont!


----------



## shibby

Tapir said:


> If you are bothered, VMs are there for all to see. and to stop the paranoia, i have print screened the single PM I sent tonight.
> 
> No bitching.


No one's paranoid, just fed up of people making out they're being diplomatic and 'picked on' when they're typing such stuff behind others backs  PMs are private and should remain that way I think.


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> Sowwie for the late response, was eating my tea!
> 
> Ok, iv been talking to spellweaver over PM...
> Iv been tryna explain it to her....
> 
> Other than the fact im an evil murdering cow....
> up to date i havnt found a single equestrian activity that can create the same atmosphere, adrenaline rush and heart pounding responce as DRAG hunting does.
> There is NOTHING i have found which can give you the thrill of riding with 70+ horses and a pack of hounds....
> If they could and did recreate this, 4 times a week...without foxes getting hurt in the process im sure we would all go...but they dont!


Did you hunt with the readyfields bloodhounds?


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> And this is all that is wrong here, its been a good thread, now spoiled...want to get it off your chest, then post in the thread...does it only matter how young you are when things don't go your way...have the balls to say it ffs...


REP coming your way!! Buster was itching soooo bad to post a message on here but I wouldn't let him!


----------



## Tapir

what? your against drag hunting now??? bloody hell


----------



## ClaireLouise

MissShelley said:


> Sorry but if you saw your name on someones VM accusing you of 'ganging' up on people wouldn't it get your back up????
> 
> Everybody else has kept their opinions on thread and hasn't felt the need to go behind peoples backs.
> 
> As for checking she is ok, why?? If you post on a debate like this then you expect to give as good as you get!


what the hell is VM???

No it wouldnt bother me, people can talk about what they like where they like on here. If they though someone was being ganged up on then thats there opinion and not exactly malicous is it?


----------



## noushka05

JJAK said:


> Sowwie for the late response, was eating my tea!
> 
> Ok, iv been talking to spellweaver over PM...
> Iv been tryna explain it to her....
> 
> Other than the fact im an evil murdering cow....
> up to date i havnt found a single equestrian activity that can create the same atmosphere, adrenaline rush and heart pounding responce as DRAG hunting does.
> There is NOTHING i have found which can give you the thrill of riding with 70+ horses and a pack of hounds....
> If they could and did recreate this, 4 times a week...without foxes getting hurt in the process im sure we would all go...but they dont!


no being funny here but dog fighters talk of that same rush when they pit their dogs


----------



## JJAK

DoubleTrouble said:


> Did you hunt with the readyfields bloodhounds?


Nopes, but my friend bruce is the huntsman! 
Iv not been out this year due to lack of horse...but if i still had Te i would of!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Inca's Mum said:


> Drag hunting is still going out riding? I don't ride, it's my sister and mum. My sister says: "Drag hunting is basically a big hack for your horse and it's a different experience and atmosphere compared to just going across local fields with a few other yard people and their horses"


*My point is.....If it's just the enjoyment of riding, that's fine. But even with a 'so called' drag hunt there have been cases of foxes being killed by the hounds 'apparantly accidentally'.
With Drag hunting you are following a scent.....Just get a group of you and go out NORMAL riding.*


----------



## JJAK

noushka05 said:


> no being funny here but dog fighters talk of that same rush when they pit their dogs


Is alright, 
Youve gotta say what uv gotta say! 
Iv never been involved with dog fighting...so cant really say much:confused1:


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> what the hell is VM???
> 
> No it wouldnt bother me, people can talk about what they like where they like on here. If they though someone was being ganged up on then thats there opinion and not exactly malicous is it?


Visitor Message  Yeah, right.... Hell it wouldn't. If they thought we were ganging up, then why not say it in the thread???? Or Complain to a Mod???

Because it's unfounded that's why


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> I don't ride


So how can you post in this thread with any authority then?


----------



## Inca's Mum

jon bda said:


> Inca's Mum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't ride/QUOTE]
> 
> So how can you post in this thread with any authority then?
> 
> 
> 
> Because my sister and mum ride, I used to ride until I had an accident and I am around horses and at the yard day in day out so know the life. And authority? I've just been posting my opinion throughout the thread, just because I don't ride myself doesn't mean I can't have an opinion or be pro hunting.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tapir

jon bda said:


> Inca's Mum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't ride9/QUOTE]
> 
> So how can you post in this thread with any authority then?
> 
> 
> 
> you don't need to ride to follow a hunt...
Click to expand...


----------



## ClaireLouise

MissShelley said:


> Visitor Message  Yeah, right.... Hell it wouldn't. If they thought we were ganging up, then why not say it in the thread???? Or Complain to a Mod???
> 
> Because it's unfounded that's why


Because they were discussing it like they are entitled to do. why get so offended. 


jon bda said:


> So how can you post in this thread with any authority then?


Her family ride as stated before


----------



## Guest

Tapir said:


> you don't need to ride to follow a hunt...


But surely to see a fox get ripped to shreds and to understand whats going on, you need to have been there?


----------



## holly1

I think hunting is barbaric. If foxes are a nuisance,shoot them when they are on your land. 
End of.


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Because they were discussing it like they are entitled to do. why get so offended.
> 
> Her family ride as stated before


Oh, you again...


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Oh, you again...


and........ are you more worthy of an opinion than me


----------



## Tapir

jon bda said:


> But surely to see a fox get ripped to shreds and to understand whats going on, you need to have been there?


No, you can follow on foot, car, quad...
she has already stated that she follows on quad (unless that was JJAK - i can't remember, sorry)


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> Because they were discussing it like they are entitled to do. why get so offended.


Yes, discuss the thread fair enough, but to namely accuse members of 'ganging up' is out of order IMO. Should have the balls to say it to me or Jon, not to each other


----------



## Inca's Mum

Tapir said:


> No, you can follow on foot, car, quad...
> she has already stated that she follows on quad (unless that was JJAK - i can't remember, sorry)


No I follow by quad or car


----------



## JJAK

Tapir said:


> No, you can follow on foot, car, quad...
> she has already stated that she follows on quad (unless that was JJAK - i can't remember, sorry)


Nopes, wasnt me! 
Iv always followed on a horse or in the car.
Id be lethal with a quad ahahaha


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> and........ are you more worthy of an opinion than me


Everyone is entitled dear...in public is good though, still remember the slating i got off you last time by VM...


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> No I follow by quad or car


Sorry just out of curiosity......do you drive the quad/car? I thought you were 14...or have I got the thread confused. :confused1::confused1:


----------



## ClaireLouise

I couldnt get round on a quad bike I would be dangerous


----------



## Inca's Mum

shetlandlover said:


> Sorry just out of curiosity......do you drive the quad/car? I thought you were 14...or have I got the thread confused. :confused1::confused1:


My mum drives the car and Luke (who lives at the yard) drives the quad when we've followed but back at the yard through the fields I'm allowed to drive the quad myself with him on the back


----------



## Starlite

jon bda said:


> So how can you post in this thread with any authority then?


I dont breed cats or work in a slaughterhouse but i still have an opinion, and i value everyone else's as its a way of learning and also being corrected if and when you can, i hate having the wrong info on something!



jon bda said:


> But surely to see a fox get ripped to shreds and to understand whats going on, you need to have been there?


No i believe there's this thing called the internet you can see all sorts on :thumbup:


----------



## Staysee

Can i just say that i'd like to thank everyone here for a good and somewhat heated debate.....reminds me why i come on this forum, even if things get a bit silly!

I dont hate any of the pro hunts people on here, im good friends with a few cos of where i live, i wont stop talking to you cos of it and more so, if i talk to you in another thread, i probably wont even remember your for the hunt!

I dont agree with the hunt and really hope it doesnt ever come back, needs banishing to the history books if you ask me! Im sorry but theres nothing you could ever say that would turn me pro or even think for a second about going and sitting on the fence [that'd be painfull at the least!] and i will read your posts and respond in my way and i wont apologise for it, unless im being mean to a specific person in which case i apologise.


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> My mum drives the car and Luke (who lives at the yard) drives the quad when we've followed but back at the yard through the fields I'm allowed to drive the quad myself with him on the back


Ahh. I thought your mum did the hunt too? Or was it just your mum rides?

Either way, sorry to hear you can no longer ride. I too had to stop because of a accident.


----------



## Inca's Mum

shetlandlover said:


> Ahh. I thought your mum did the hunt too? Or was it just your mum rides?
> 
> Either way, sorry to hear you can no longer ride. I too had to stop because of a accident.


My mum rides but has never been brave enough to ride in the hunt yet, only my sister so far


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> I dont breed cats or work in a slaughterhouse but i still have an opinion


About what???


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> *hate to admit it...*
> 
> but that thread has made me think...


Good for you. That's what I meant in my earlier post when I said you were intelligent and well able to think for yourself. Now you may still end up thinking that hunting is OK and it's your perogative to do so - but at least you are thinking about it and not just accepting that "it happens". I'd give you rep for this if I had any left :thumbup:


----------



## Inca's Mum

Spellweaver said:


> Good for you. That's what I meant in my earlier post when I said you were intelligent and well able to think for yourself. Now you may still end up thinking that hunting is OK and it's your perogative to do so - but at least you are thinking about it and not just accepting that "it happens". I'd give you rep for this if I had any left :thumbup:


I have always stated that I agree with views from either side of the 'fence' but thanks


----------



## Starlite

jon bda said:


> About what???


am i using too many big words?

I dont breed cats, i dont work in a slaughterhouse, i dont hunt for fun, but i still have an opinion on these topics and many others and on an open forum providing i confrom to the rules i and all others have a right to post them.

For you to say you must be an "authority" on a subject is absurd, define an "authority".


----------



## ClaireLouise

Starlite said:


> am i using too many big words?
> 
> I dont breed cats, i dont work in a slaughterhouse, i dont hunt for fun, but i still have an opinion on these topics and many others and on an open forum providing i confrom to the rules i and all others have a right to post them.
> 
> For you to say you must be an "authority" on a subject is absurd, define an "authority".


good post, I agree


----------



## Guest

Recipe request!

Anyone got one for untwisting knickers?


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> am i using too many big words?
> 
> I dont breed cats, i dont work in a slaughterhouse, i dont hunt for fun, but i still have an opinion on these topics and many others and on an open forum providing i confrom to the rules i and all others have a right to post them.
> 
> For you to say you must be an "authority" on a subject is absurd, define an "authority".


I can count the numbers of big words on my fingers and toes thanks...and where did i say i was an 'authority' then???. I must of missed that...


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> I couldnt get round on a quad bike I would be dangerous


Get a pair of stabilizers:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Starlite

DoubleTrouble said:


> Recipe request!
> 
> Anyone got one for untwisting knickers?


Yes, dont wear any :ihih:


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Get a pair of stabilizers:thumbup::thumbup:


I dont even think tht could help me DT lol.


----------



## Staysee

Looking back over posts, i apologise for saying that i dont respect pro hunts peoples opinions



I do respect your opinions, i just dont respect the actual hunt


----------



## Starlite

*sigh*
I never said you were, the only thing you seem to do is whinge "the world is against you" (paraphrasing of course). My post was in reference to below



jon bda said:


> So how can you post in this thread with any authority then?


----------



## Guest

I think I sould be given permission to bang all your heads together!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> *sigh*
> I never said you were, the only thing you seem to do is whinge "the world is against you" (paraphrasing of course). My post was in reference to below


Umm, the world is against me?. I posted in a fox hunting thread...i'm not a fox??? . Have you run out of things to do now strictly has fininshed dear?


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think I sould be given permission to bang all your heads together!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Please not me DT, im ill....i think banging my head would make me even more ill!!!


----------



## Guest

Ten green bottles hanging on a wall:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

To say that I'm disappointed with many of you on this thread is an understatement, I've been reading back through the posts and I'm not happy about some of the paranoid comments about bitching and slagging off behind eachothers backs. I don't take sides, but I would have thought this could have gone off more peacefully.

People are entitled to their opinions, it's a free country. If you try to stifle someone's opinion, you're making yourself look very bad.


----------



## ClaireLouise

Staysee said:


> Please not me DT, im ill....i think banging my head would make me even more ill!!!


Not me either, ive had a hard week  AND ive tried so hard to be nice


----------



## Guest

Chillinator said:


> To say that I'm disappointed with many of you on this thread is an understatement, I've been reading back through the posts and I'm not happy about some of the paranoid comments about bitching and slagging off behind eachothers backs. I don't take sides, but I would have thought this could have gone off more peacefully.
> 
> People are entitled to their opinions, it's a free country. If you try to stifle someone's opinion, you're making yourself look very bad.


Um! reckon I may just be with you on this one Chillinator!

Seeing as I have been involved is a few of these in the past!

Reckon this is just one of those areas where we shall all have to agree to disagree:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## shibby

Chillinator said:


> To say that I'm disappointed with many of you on this thread is an understatement, I've been reading back through the posts and I'm not happy about some of the paranoid comments about bitching and slagging off behind eachothers backs.
> 
> People are entitled to their opinions, it's a free country. If you try to stifle someone's opinion, you're making yourself look very bad.


Well, it's just as well we don't need to seek your approval  That's quite patronising...


----------



## JJAK

DoubleTrouble said:


> Reckon this is just one of those areas where we shall all have to agree to disagree:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


I said that about 20 pages back  
hehehehehe


----------



## Guest

shibby said:


> Well, it's just as well we don't need to seek your approval


I created the thread, I've stirred the hornet's nest on a sensitive subject, so I'm quite likely to take the blame when it goes belly-up... :lol:

Seriously though, given this forum's past for arguing, I would have thought that we'd all moved on from our old attitude of being less likely to accept other opinions.


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> I said that about 20 pages back
> hehehehehe


i'm a slow learner


----------



## Staysee

Chillinator said:


> To say that I'm disappointed with many of you on this thread is an understatement, I've been reading back through the posts and I'm not happy about some of the paranoid comments about bitching and slagging off behind eachothers backs. I don't take sides, but I would have thought this could have gone off more peacefully.
> 
> People are entitled to their opinions, it's a free country. If you try to stifle someone's opinion, you're making yourself look very bad.


Surely you know when starting the thread itd spark controversy [sp]?

Not having a go at you, but surely everyone knows this subject isnt a tea and biscuits with your best bone china type of conversation


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Not had time to fully read through this but wow, some bizarre posts! Do people believe wild animals live a fluffy happy life without ever experiencing fear, unless humans suddenly loom on the horizon and possibly hunt them? What makes someone with or without dogs, going after an animal, any different than any other day of their life where they may possibly die?? 

The main difference I see, is between those who love animals, and those who respect animals, if you can't understand that those who hunt, and/or shoot, respect their quarry, then you can't see their point of view and will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, very sad


----------



## shibby

Chillinator said:


> I created the thread, I've stirred the hornet's nest on a sensitive subject, so I'm quite likely to take the blame when it goes belly-up... :lol:


I'm aware of who started it  But just because you start a thread doesn't make you responsible for people replying on it in a way you deem incorrect. When it goes belly up, the people who made it go belly up will take the blame. Besides, it's managed to stay open for nearly 700 posts, that's an achievement!


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Surely you know when starting the thread itd spark controversy [sp]?
> 
> Not having a go at you, but surely everyone knows this subject isnt a tea and biscuits with your best bone china type of conversation


It would spark controversy, I knew that and I knew that it would spark debate. However, I thought most of us on here could discuss and debate without taking things seriously, trying to make eachother feel bad and just take an opinion as you see it.


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Surely you know when starting the thread itd spark controversy [sp]?
> 
> Not having a go at you, but surely everyone knows this subject isnt a tea and biscuits with your best bone china type of conversation


Nah its blood and guts and the one with the biggest stick wins!
And I have laid down my heavy artillary for today at least! coz I'm in a GOOD mood:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not had time to fully read through this but wow, some bizarre posts! Do people believe wild animals live a fluffy happy life without ever experiencing fear, unless humans suddenly loom on the horizon and possibly hunt them? What makes someone with or without dogs, going after an animal, any different than any other day of their life where they may possibly die??
> 
> The main difference I see, is between those who love animals, and those who respect animals, if you can't understand that those who hunt, and/or shoot, respect their quarry, then you can't see their point of view and will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, very sad


:lol: :lol: :lol:
You going to start this up again?


----------



## Staysee

Chillinator said:


> It would spark controversy, I knew that and I knew that it would spark debate. However, I thought most of us on here could discuss and debate without taking things seriously, trying to make eachother feel bad and just take an opinion as you see it.


Ah come on, since when have people ever had a healthy debate on here?


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Nah its blood and guts and the one with the biggest stick wins!
> And I have laid down my heavy artillary for today at least! coz I'm in a GOOD mood:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Biggest Stick??!?!?! 

My artillary is down now, i've now apologised!


----------



## ClaireLouise

Staysee said:


> Ah come on, since when have people ever had a healthy debate on here?


actually  we had a healthy debate on the disabled parking thread, no mud slinging or nothing  didnt we DT?


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Ah come on, since when have people ever had a healthy debate on here?


They could start right now! :lol:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> actually  we had a healthy debate on the disabled parking thread, no mud slinging or nothing  didnt we DT?


Yep Claire:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: we did that! anyone recommend a good washing power for removing mud?


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> actually  we had a healthy debate on the disabled parking thread, no mud slinging or nothing  didnt we DT?


That thread was peace on earth compared to many, oh why didn't I create that one?  :lol:


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep Claire:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: we did that! anyone recommend a good washing power for removing mud?


LOL get some Daz on them whites lol


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

rona said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> You going to start this up again?


Chuckle, don't see the point really Rona, but you know me, I won't let a one sided debate about hunting/shooting go unanswered, we're all hypocrites, it's just to what extent


----------



## Starlite

jon bda said:


> Umm, the world is against me?. I posted in a fox hunting thread...i'm not a fox??? . Have you run out of things to do now strictly has fininshed dear?


If you are referring to the programme (should at least have a capital but anway) then no as i dont watch the crap, i am normally on the animal channels you dont get on council tv 



Chillinator said:


> Seriously though, given this forum's past for arguing, I would have thought that we'd all moved on from our old attitude of being less likely to accept other opinions.


now where would you get a crazy idea like that? :lol:


----------



## Guest

Chillinator said:


> That thread was peace on earth compared to many, oh why didn't I create that one?  :lol:


That thread I did could have turned nasty but it didn't luckily.:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

danielled said:


> That thread I did could have turned nasty but it didn't luckily.:thumbup:


Shall you and me have a party Dan???:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Last say! for now anyway!

You can please some of the people some of the time
Most of the people most of the time
But you'll NEVER please all of the people all of the time!!!

You contribute to a thread!
You get differing opinions!
Summat you have to accpect!
T'is life!


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Shall you and me have a party Dan???:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Why not eh DT.


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Last say! for now anyway!
> 
> You can please some of the people some of the time
> Most of the people most of the time
> But you'll NEVER please all of the people all of the time!!!
> 
> You contribute to a thread!
> You get differing opinions!
> Summat you have to accpect!
> T'is life!


I'm always right tho


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> I'm always right tho


Erm! sounds very much like someone I know:scared::scared:


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> If you are referring to the programme (should at least have a capital but anway) then no as i dont watch the crap, i am normally on the animal channels you dont get on council tv


And what a half witted response that is...you'll be saying i'm drinking council pop next...


----------



## ClaireLouise

:001_cool: :001_cool: :001_cool:


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Last say! for now anyway!
> 
> You can please some of the people some of the time
> Most of the people most of the time
> But you'll NEVER please all of the people all of the time!!!
> 
> You contribute to a thread!
> You get differing opinions!
> Summat you have to accpect!
> T'is life!


reminds me of that saying! opinions are like arseholes we all have one and think each others stink!!  :lol:


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> And what a half witted response that is...you'll be saying i'm drinking council pop next...


Nah! Waccy Baccy:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> :001_cool: :001_cool: :001_cool:


At least have the balls to have your own opinion and speak up, don't just tag on to everyone thats disagreeing with me and post smilies, had enough of this with you in the facebook thread...


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> If you are referring to the programme (should at least have a capital but anway) then no as i dont watch the crap, i am normally on the animal channels you dont get on council tv
> 
> :


Hey! that were bang outta order!


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> At least have the balls to have your own opinion and speak up, don't just tag on to everyone thats disagreeing with me and post smilies, had enough of this with you in the facebook thread...


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Nah! Waccy Baccy:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Gave that up years ago...kills too many cainbrells...


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> And what a half witted response that is...you'll be saying i'm drinking council pop next...


I am sat in my bedroom and:



> *- originally said by Pluto the dog* I think you are drinking council pop





> *- originally said by fluffy the bear* I disagree I think Jon bda is funny and billy brown bear, cody the croc and perky the pig all agree!!


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Come on, get the dictionary out...surely you can spell something???


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Come on, get the dictionary out...surely you can spell something???


Something


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Something


Well done, now take it easy until next weekend...let the adults speak now...


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> I am sat in my bedroom and:


Can I come and sit in your bedroom??? Pluto the dog, and fluffy the bear are making much more sense than some posting on here!  :thumbup:


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Well done, now take it easy until next weekend...let the adults speak now...


:eek6: :eek6: :eek6: :eek6: :eek6:


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> Something


Oh come one Claire.... You'll have to try harder if you want to wind him up :lol:


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> Can I come and sit in your bedroom??? Pluto the dog, and fluffy the bear are making much more sense than some posting on here!  :thumbup:


Well I'm off to Noddyland soon! perhaps you could join me there:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Staysee

Not meaning to start anything cos i wont mention names....but i've seen evidence of someone calling people 'stupid' because of thier opinions


Just cos they dont agree with your POV, doesnt mean they are stupid for it.


----------



## MissShelley

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I'm off to Noddyland soon! perhaps you could join me there:thumbup::thumbup:


Sounds like a plan! Can I have a ride in Noddys car as well???

Not too fast though, can't be having anything else ending up in plaster :lol:


----------



## ClaireLouise

MissShelley said:


> Oh come one Claire.... You'll have to try harder if you want to wind him up :lol:


.......................... :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> Sounds like a plan! Can I have a ride in Noddys car as well???
> 
> Not too fast though, can't be having anything else ending up in plaster :lol:


Noddys car is off the road! the exhaust fumes were getting on my chest


----------



## MissShelley

DoubleTrouble said:


> Noddys car is off the road! the exhaust fumes were getting on my chest


Aw blimmin heck! I big ride in the big elephant it is then


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Not meaning to start anything cos i wont mention names....but i've seen evidence of someone calling people 'stupid' because of thier opinions
> 
> Just cos they dont agree with your POV, doesnt mean they are stupid for it.


I get called stupid all the time! but that don't worry me much! coz I know summat they don't!!!:thumbup::thumbup:
That Empty vessels make most noise!


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> I get called stupid all the time! but that don't worry me much! coz I know summat they don't!!!:thumbup::thumbup:
> That Empty vessels make most noise!


hahahaha I like that one DT


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> .......................... :thumbup:


Oh come on, that thing in front of you with all the letters on is called a keyboard...its what the adults use to communicate dear...


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> .......................... :thumbup:


And me for that matter!! Now if you've nothing constructive to say i'm hobbling off to DT's house with a hooge bottle of Baileys, and Busters Mummy and we're going to ride on the big pink elephant! :lol:

On that bombshell! It's goodnight from me and goodnight from them


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Oh come on, that thing in front of you with all the letters on is called a keyboard...its what the adults use to communicate dear...


Oh thanks for the pointer :thumbup:


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> I get called stupid all the time! but that don't worry me much! coz I know summat they don't!!!:thumbup::thumbup:
> That Empty vessels make most noise!


Now im being stupid XD

I wish i understood what you meant! haha


----------



## ClaireLouise

MissShelley said:


> And me for that matter!! Now if you've nothing constructive to say i'm hobbling off to DT's house with a hooge bottle of Baileys, and Busters Mummy and we're going to ride on the big pink elephant! :lol:
> 
> On that bombshell! It's goodnight from me and goodnight from them


Good night :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Oh thanks for the pointer :thumbup:


So come on then, say something yourself rather than just following people about and posting smiley faces when you can't think of an insulting word with lots of letters in it...


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Now im being stupid XD
> 
> I wish i understood what you meant! haha


Hey Staysee you want me to tell you summat:thumbup::thumbup:
If I understood what I said it would be a bloody miracle so how the heck can we expect anyone else too

In other words I am talking Bullpoo! like many others on here!


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey Staysee you want me to tell you summat:thumbup::thumbup:
> If I understood what I said it would be a bloody miracle so how the heck can we expect anyone else too


ahhhhhh gotcha!!!

Goobledeegook!


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> So come on then, say something yourself rather than just following people about and posting smiley faces when you can't think of an insulting word with lots of letters in it...


Jon!
do you have a problem with Claire? because this is becomming a little repetitive!


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Jon!
> do you have a problem with Claire? because this is becomming a little repetitive!


Im nay bothered DT, if it keeps him entertained :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> ahhhhhh gotcha!!!
> 
> Goobledeegook!


got it in one! I am the mistress of crap!
T'is a necessity when participating in these threads!


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> Can I come and sit in your bedroom??? Pluto the dog, and fluffy the bear are making much more sense than some posting on here!  :thumbup:


Pluto, fluffy and the rest said they'd happily take a photo to prove they are real  :lol:


----------



## Guest

December 28th 2010
DT makes entry in diary
Needds to get a life!
spent 2 hours of her time and went through 745 posts to get absolutely NOWHERE


----------



## Starlite

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! that were bang outta order!


Nooo, tell me you dont watch that rubbish DT! Say it aint so! :scared:


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Jon!
> do you have a problem with Claire? because this is becomming a little repetitive!


Nope, just that she seems to of followed me about before when some other forum members and i had words...she didn't have a lot more to say then. Now shes on her own it seems smiley faces are as clever as it gets...


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> And me for that matter!! Now if you've nothing constructive to say i'm hobbling off to DT's house with a hooge bottle of Baileys, and Busters Mummy and we're going to ride on the big pink elephant! :lol:
> 
> On that bombshell! It's goodnight from me and goodnight from them


Pink elephant? oh yeah not seen her for ages!! :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Im nay bothered DT, if it keeps him entertained :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


:001_cool::frown::thumbup::confused1::scared::arf::lol:::eek6:


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> got it in one! I am the mistress of crap!
> T'is a necessity when participating in these threads!


Ah tis true!

Altho i think you are one of the few who can get away from talking crap in a thread and not being bollucked for it, i've tried and been ignored, so i stick with either going mental or not posting at all when it comes to debates! haha


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> December 28th 2010
> DT makes entry in diary
> Needds to get a life!
> spent 2 hours of her time and went through 745 posts to get absolutely NOWHERE


that's the same thing I put in my diary


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> Nooo, tell me you dont watch that rubbish DT! Say it aint so! :scared:


WE can't afford a licence for the BBC  so I am restricted to the chavvy channels


----------



## Starlite

DoubleTrouble said:


> WE can't afford a licence for the BBC  so I am restricted to the chavvy channels


:lol: :lol:


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> Pluto, fluffy and the rest said they'd happily take a photo to prove they are real  :lol:


Oh, that won't be necessary! because they posted! That's all the proof I need! :lol:


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> Pink elephant? oh yeah not seen her for ages!! :thumbup:


Oh yeah! Pink elephant! Going to be a wild ride! :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Ah tis true!
> 
> Altho i think you are one of the few who can get away from talking crap in a thread and not being bollucked for it, i've tried and been ignored, so i stick with either going mental or not posting at all when it comes to debates! haha


You saying I talk poo poo


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Nope, just that she seems to of followed me about before when some other forum members and i had words...she didn't have a lot more to say then. Now shes on her own it seems smiley faces are as clever as it gets...


Hardly followed you about, I just agreed with someone and you are still sulking about it. As for the smilies on here at first they werent even in response to you I was messing about but when I realised you like em so much I kept it up :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> You saying I talk poo poo


I would never say such a thing....just think it


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Hardly followed you about, I just agreed with someone and you are still sulking about it. As for the smilies on here at first they werent even in response to you I was messing about but when I realised you like em so much I kept it up :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Claire! I actually am rather dissapointed with you!
I would have expected a moony at the VERY least!
Shame on you


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Claire! I actually am rather dissapointed with you!
> I would have expected a moony at the VERY least!
> Shame on you


I did actually consider taking a snap of my ass on the web cam n posting it on here but I changed my mind at the last minute it seemed to much effort and the smilies were doing the job lol, Ive no energy to argue lol


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> I did actually consider taking a snap of my ass on the web cam n posting it on here but I changed my mind at the last minute it seemed to much effort and the smilies were doing the job lol, Ive no energy to argue lol


You could always snap Barneys:scared::scared::scared:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Hardly followed you about, I just agreed with someone and you are still sulking about it. As for the smilies on here at first they werent even in response to you I was messing about but when I realised you like em so much I kept it up :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Just would of been nice if you had had your own opinion tbh, wasn't sulking just annoyed at the two faced members on here, think you were one of them?. As i say, a forum is a community...you have beef, have the balls to say what you think out loud...


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> You could always snap Barneys:scared::scared::scared:


LOL he is keen on the idea. I will write 'kiss it' in biro on his cheeks too lol...... actually ive change my mind, I dont want to get to close to it after some of the smells its been letting off tonight


----------



## Guest

Woah thread gone off topic?

DT I think there is a underline issue/problem going on between Claire and Jon so I dont think its just him picking her out and picking on here.

I really dont know were they pluck these tv programs from but I am watching some show about gorden brown living in the forest or something....:lol:


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Just would of been nice if you had had your own opinion tbh, wasn't sulking just annoyed at the two faced members on here, think you were one of them?. As i say, a forum is a community...you have beef, have the balls to say what you think out loud...


I did say it out loud, you sulked because you didnt like it. Ive never been two face, im definatly not affraid to have an opinion Why hold silly grudges lifes too short and ive not got the energry to continiue this with you.


----------



## ClaireLouise

shetlandlover said:


> Woah thread gone off topic?
> 
> DT I think there is a underline issue/problem going on between Claire and Jon so I dont think its just him picking her out and picking on here.
> 
> I really dont know were they pluck these tv programs from but I am watching some show about gorden brown living in the forest or something....:lol:


Ive only ever agreed with one member who said something against Jon and it wasnt uncalled for either


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> Woah thread gone off topic?
> 
> DT I think there is a underline issue/problem going on between Claire and Jon so I dont think its just him picking her out and picking on here.
> 
> I really dont know were they pluck these tv programs from but I am watching some show about gorden brown living in the forest or something....:lol:



OH dear! thanks for that tip!

Come on Jon & Claire! you are two decent pf members! kiss and make up:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> I did say it out loud, you sulked because you didnt like it. Ive never been two face, im definatly not affraid to have an opinion Why hold silly grudges lifes too short and ive not got the energry to continiue this with you.


Umm, no...you moaned on Facebook...posted after other members on my wall rather than having anything to say yourself, i'm not holding a grudge, i just remember you for this very reason...so goodnight, hope your spelling gets better tomorrow...


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Ive only ever agreed with one member who said something against Jon and it wasnt uncalled for either


The same convo included something said about me and another member that was uncalled for though...

I must admit I do dislike people who cant be up front with how they feel about someone. The person that said the worst of it has still not explained why she said what she said about the other member which is annoying so I can see why Jon is upset.

I dont want to get involved in this anymore than I already am but you cant blame him for being mad...I mean if you found out someone on here was slagging you off or talking about you behind your back when tbh you barely knew them you would be mad and want a answer? I know I would.

Hopefully now Jon knows how you feel face to face and not read by looking into a private convo things can move forward. And we can all move on. :thumbup:


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> Umm, no...you moaned on Facebook...posted after other members on my wall rather than having anything to say yourself, i'm not holding a grudge, i just remember you for this very reason...so goodnight, hope your spelling gets better tomorrow...


I didnt moan of FB about anyone im always careful in what I say :001_cool: Ive been round here long enough to know there are always eyes watching. think you have got me mixed up with someone else. I did comment on your page but it was my own opinion and I stand by it, it wasnt rude or nasty as thats not me,


----------



## Guest

Hey!
You guys!
If I had a pound for everytime someone said summat nasty about me there would be NO need for me to EVER do the lottery again:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

and is there really a need to bring whats said on facebook on here??

I don't do facebook - well not very well! but have lost count the times I've been told folk have said stuff about me!

Is it worth it???


----------



## ClaireLouise

shetlandlover said:


> The same convo included something said about me and another member that was uncalled for though...
> 
> I must admit I do dislike people who cant be up front with how they feel about someone. The person that said the worst of it has still not explained why she said what she said about the other member which is annoying so I can see why Jon is upset.
> 
> I dont want to get involved in this anymore than I already am but you cant blame him for being mad...I mean if you found out someone on here was slagging you off or talking about you behind your back when tbh you barely knew them you would be mad and want a answer? I know I would.
> 
> Hopefully now Jon knows how you feel face to face and not read by looking into a private convo things can move forward. And we can all move on. :thumbup:


Can I just ask you to clarify that if you have read this so called thread on FB then you would have seen I didnt actually say anything horrible about anyone,* I dont think the way in which you two are posting is fair to me as it insinuates I was involved in comments about certain member which I wasnt*, I am always careful of what I say.


----------



## Guest

Guys keep what is said on facebook on facebook and off the forum.


----------



## MissShelley

shetlandlover said:


> The same convo included something said about me and another member that was uncalled for though...
> 
> I must admit I do dislike people who cant be up front with how they feel about someone. The person that said the worst of it has still not explained why she said what she said about the other member which is annoying so I can see why Jon is upset.
> 
> I dont want to get involved in this anymore than I already am but you cant blame him for being mad...I mean if you found out someone on here was slagging you off or talking about you behind your back when tbh you barely knew them you would be mad and want a answer? I know I would.
> 
> Hopefully now Jon knows how you feel face to face and not read by looking into a private convo things can move forward. And we can all move on. :thumbup:


Well said hon. And this is the crux.... Stuff being said behind other peoples backs because they are too gutless to say it face to face... And I know ( being married to him ) That this is something Jon can't abide... He'll tell ya like it is, to your face, no scuttling off and backbiting, that most certainly is not his style.... I was fuming tonight at what was written on certain members VM messageboards about us, like I say, say it to my face not behind my back.


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey!
> You guys!
> If I had a pound for everytime someone said summat nasty about me there would be NO need for me to EVER do the lottery again:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> and is there really a need to bring whats said on facebook on here??
> 
> I don't do facebook - well not very well! but have lost count the times I've been told folk have said stuff about me!
> 
> Is it worth it???


The thing im finding annoying DT is these people are making it look like I said something which I didnt. You know me by now if I had I would admit it. 
I did comment on the thread in question but was extra careful not to say anything about anyone as i knew people cold see, im not that soft lol


----------



## ClaireLouise

MissShelley said:


> Well said hon. And this is the crux.... Stuff being said behind other peoples backs because they are too gutless to say it face to face... And I know ( being married to him ) That this is something Jon can't abide... He'll tell ya like it is, to your face, no scuttling off and backbiting, that most certainly is not his style.... I was fuming tonight at what was written on certain members VM messageboards about us, like I say, say it to my face not behind my back.


I think Jon need to get his facts right because I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

danielled said:


> Guys keep what is said on facebook on facebook and off the forum.


*I don't think us adults need telling what to do thanks. *


----------



## Starlite

jon bda said:


> Umm, no...you moaned on Facebook...posted after other members on my wall rather than having anything to say yourself, i'm not holding a grudge, i just remember you for this very reason...so goodnight, hope your spelling gets better tomorrow...


Here we go AGAIN 

look if someone said something on FB take it on there, otherwise build a wee bridge and get over it.
It the internet, no one forces you to look at all the "nasty" things about you or others

Im with DT on this one, weve all had crap said about us but do you honestly care?


----------



## ClaireLouise

danielled said:


> Guys keep what is said on facebook on facebook and off the forum.


Its not nice Dan when people are trying to make it look like you have said something when you havent


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> I think Jon need to get his facts right because I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE


Who said my post was about you?


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Its not nice Dan when people are trying to make it look like you have said something when you havent


I know been there with my cousin once before he never did it again. Ignore it all. Easier said than done I know.


----------



## ClaireLouise

surely some can just clarify I didnt actually say anything about Jon on FB lol you all obvioulsy have read the thread,


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Can I just ask you to clarify that if you have read this so called thread on FB then you would have seen I didnt actually say anything horrible about anyone,* I dont think the way in which you two are posting is fair to me as it insinuates I was involved in comments about certain member which I wasnt*, I am always careful of what I say.


You were saying how horrible it was that GillyR was run off the forum because of a member.

Now, lets leave it at that. I know you were not the one that said anything about me or the other member and I dont know about Jon but I put the silly thing behind me though I owuld still like a reason from a certain member but she isnt replying to the worst thing she said so shes not likely to reply to me so I have not even bothered to ask.

Though I do think bad things being said...anyone has something to say should just come out and say it.

Every member on here has had disputes and disagree'd but they dont go as far as that facebook stuff did..so its best in future if you dislike someone either tell them or leave it. That's what I do. And if you disagree about something its usually forgotten by the next thread and thats the way it should be.


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> I think Jon need to get his facts right because I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE


To be fair, you may not of...just...'went with the flow'...sort of. And Starlite, as i've already said, to be nice as pie to someone on here while slagging them off on FB, how is that cool?.


----------



## ClaireLouise

MissShelley said:


> Who said my post was about you?


JON said I moaned about him on FB then shetland said the bad feeling started because I said something on FB which i did not and would gladly prove


----------



## shepherd mush

i love to see our noble fox on the streets when i walk the dogs early morning . . . for some reason mine seem to have a connection with these animals. However, i understand why in the country side they get a bad name and must at least be controlled by the game keepers of large estates who hold pheasant shoots for example. However, i disagree with any hunt that is not for food's sake as well as sport. As a course fisherman i always release my catch after a quick photo . . . maybe the hunters of this world should turn photographers and let their dogs just find the quarry  my dog senses a few minutes before i get a bite out fishing - he's great !


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> The thing im finding annoying DT is these people are making it look like I said something which I didnt. You know me by now if I had I would admit it.
> I did comment on the thread in question but was extra careful not to say anything about anyone as i knew people cold see, im not that soft lol


Claire! from what I know of you you have always been very diplomatic in the way you put things, I am actually rather shocked and find it diffiult to believe that you would have said anything out of place taking into account that the persona who were mainly responsible for the slagging! (the one that aint here).

And YES I do believe you would admit to saying anything! perhaps some have misunderstood!


----------



## MissShelley

ClaireLouise said:


> JON said I moaned about him on FB then shetland said the bad feeling started because I said something on FB which i did not and would gladly prove


Like I said.... Who said my post was about you... In all fairness couldn't give a stuff about what you may of or may not of said.... I was peed off at other members tonight, your replies to me did not help.


----------



## ClaireLouise

shetlandlover said:


> *You were saying how horrible it was that GillyR was run off the forum because of a member.*Now, lets leave it at that. I know you were not the one that said anything about me or the other member and I dont know about Jon but I put the silly thing behind me though I owuld still like a reason from a certain member but she isnt replying to the worst thing she said so shes not likely to reply to me so I have not even bothered to ask.
> 
> Though I do think bad things being said...anyone has something to say should just come out and say it.
> 
> Every member on here has had disputes and disagree'd but they dont go as far as that facebook stuff did..so its best in future if you dislike someone either tell them or leave it. That's what I do. And if you disagree about something its usually forgotten by the next thread and thats the way it should be.


Some said she has been run off and* I said I didnt know that, thats very sad......* and that is all I said, I dont think how you have all made me look tonight is fair after all that its ALL i said


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> JON said I moaned about him on FB


Didn't say that...didn't like the fact you just seemed to follow everyone who slagged me off on my wall without having an opinion of your own is what i think you will find i said...


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> You were saying how horrible it was that GillyR was run off the forum because of a member.
> 
> Now, lets leave it at that. *I know you were not the one that said anything about me or the other member* and I dont know about Jon but I put the silly thing behind me though I owuld still like a reason from a certain member but she isnt replying to the worst thing she said so shes not likely to reply to me so I have not even bothered to ask.
> .


I have bolded that incase...

Claire didnt say anything apart from the first bit though she did go along with the post she was careful of how she put things and as I have stated I dont have any issues with claire.


----------



## Starlite

jon bda said:


> And Starlite, as i've already said, to be nice as pie to someone on here while slagging them off on FB, how is that cool?.


I have a better question, who cares? :confused1:

Bringing it up every few posts does what exactly? Remind people how childish and petty you can be?

As i said, if it was on FB take it on there or delete them. You can also put people on your "ignore" list on the forum, solves alot of problems :thumbup:

On topic, I still think city foxes are scabby things


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> *To be fair, you may not of*...just...'went with the flow'...sort of. And Starlite, as i've already said, to be nice as pie to someone on here while slagging them off on FB, how is that cool?.


I will take that as an admission you looked back and realised you got the wrong person


DoubleTrouble said:


> Claire! from what I know of you you have always been very diplomatic in the way you put things, I am actually rather shocked and find it diffiult to believe that you would have said anything out of place taking into account that the persona who were mainly responsible for the slagging! (the one that aint here).
> 
> And YES I do believe you would admit to saying anything! perhaps some have misunderstood!


Thanks DT means a lot.


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> *Umm, no...you moaned on Facebook...p*osted after other members on my wall rather than having anything to say yourself, i'm not holding a grudge, i just remember you for this very reason...so goodnight, hope your spelling gets better tomorrow...





jon bda said:


> Didn't say that...didn't like the fact you just seemed to follow everyone who slagged me off on my wall without having an opinion of your own is what i think you will find i said...


you did say that lol, it on here

anyway ive nothing else to say I think my point has been made and it will be apparent to people who read this thread what has happened


----------



## shibby

shepherd mush said:


> i love to see our noble fox on the streets when i walk the dogs early morning . . . for some reason mine seem to have a connection with these animals. However, i understand why in the country side they get a bad name and must at least be controlled by the game keepers of large estates who hold pheasant shoots for example. However, i disagree with any hunt that is not for food's sake as well as sport. As a course fisherman i always release my catch after a quick photo . . . maybe the hunters of this world should turn photographers and let their dogs just find the quarry  my dog senses a few minutes before i get a bite out fishing - he's great !


:thumbup: A post on topic! I like the photography idea  Clever dog...


----------



## Taylorbaby

whats facebook? i thought it was myspace all the kids were into these days? or is it facespace or myface?

anyway! I cant stand people who go round on horses with dogs killing animals!


----------



## Guest

I have a suggestion!

Jon! put you big boys knickers on! Turn the the cheek, of just let it roll off the ducks back!
It aint worth it! we know who were the main culprit in all of this = and seeing as she ain;t around to defend herself then maybe that in itself is an admission of guilt!


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> I will take that as an admission you looked back and realised you got the wrong person


I wouldn't...both of the other people i 'agreed to disagree' with on the FB thread have contacted me since then...we may never be best mates but i think we now know where we stand and thats what i like and thats what works...everyone knows where they are at. You meanwhile seem to have nobody to hide behind this time and your all out of smiley faces...


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> I wouldn't...both of the other people i 'agreed to disagree' with on the FB thread have contacted me since then...we may never be best mates but i think we now know where we stand and thats what i like and thats what works...everyone knows where they are at. You meanwhile seem to have nobody to hide behind this time and your all out of smiley faces...


Ive never hidden behind anyone, i pmed you to discuss my agreeing with another member(which last time I checked I was allowed to do) with you and you put my PM on the open forum. The reason I reply with smilies is I can see you trying to get an arguement and I coulsnt be bothered, ive more important things going on. I think Ive proven ive done nothing wrong and its on here for the whole forum to see...... so much for not having anyone to stand behind


----------



## Guest

shibby said:


> :thumbup: A post on topic! I like the photography idea  Clever dog...


your wasting your breathe mate thats for the info on the scooters by the way!:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Some said she has been run off and* I said I didnt know that, thats very sad......* and that is all I said, I dont think how you have all made me look tonight is fair after all that its ALL i said


Thats EXACTLY how I see it Claire! and them that are making a meal out of this - shame on em!


----------



## shibby

DoubleTrouble said:


> your wasting your breathe mate thats for the info on the scooters by the way!:thumbup:


I probably am, it's been off topic for 12 or so pages now, I keep thinking someone's replied with something new! Scooters? I'm lost :confused1:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> Ive never hidden behind anyone, i pmed you to discuss my agreeing with another member(which last time I checked I was allowed to do) with you and you put my PM on the open forum. The reason I reply with smilies is I can see you trying to get an arguement and I coulsnt be bothered, ive more important things going on. I think Ive proven ive done nothing wrong and its on here for the whole forum to see...... so much for not having anyone to stand behind


You forgot the...

:scared:    :arf: :eek6: : :lol: :001_cool:


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> I wouldn't...both of the other people i 'agreed to disagree' with on the FB thread have contacted me since then...we may never be best mates but i think we now know where we stand and thats what i like and thats what works...everyone knows where they are at. You meanwhile seem to have nobody to hide behind this time and your all out of smiley faces...


Jonbda!
I have never had a problem with you! but this has now got stupid! That member who said those things has said bad things about many of us! but is it worth us carrying this on! We all know who she is and she ain;t here to defend herself! thats an admission in itself! I hear - on the grapevine she is going to come back in a few days! Save your piece for then!

DT


----------



## Starlite

shibby said:


> I probably am, it's been off topic for 12 or so pages now, I keep thinking someone's replied with something new! Scooters? I'm lost :confused1:


eh, scooters? Like moblity scooters?

ooh, have you ever raced them, its fun


----------



## ClaireLouise

jon bda said:


> You forgot the...
> 
> :scared:    :arf: :eek6: : :lol: :001_cool:


........................ :dita:


----------



## shibby

Starlite said:


> eh, scooters? Like moblity scooters?
> 
> ooh, have you ever raced them, its fun


Is this a joke I'm not aware of :confused1: No, but I would love to race a road hog/mobility scooter!


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Jonbda!
> I have never had a problem with you! but this has now got stupid! That member who said those things has said bad things about many of us! but is it worth us carrying this on! We all know who she is and she ain;t here to defend herself! thats an admission in itself! I hear - on the grapevine she is going to come back in a few days! Save your piece for then!
> 
> DT


who who who? you made me curious!!!


----------



## Guest

shibby said:


> I probably am, it's been off topic for 12 or so pages now, I keep thinking someone's replied with something new! Scooters? I'm lost :confused1:


Heck! I were thinking you were the guy with the border collies and the scooter!
sorry


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Jonbda!
> I have never had a problem with you! but this has now got stupid! That member who said those things has said bad things about many of us! but is it worth us carrying this on! We all know who she is and she ain;t here to defend herself! thats an admission in itself! I hear - on the grapevine she is going to come back in a few days! Save your piece for then!
> 
> DT


This is news to my ears....maybe worth a pm then.

Jon its maybe best leaving it now, Claire has now made it very clear to you how she stands. I dont know whats been going on via pm's or vm's or whatever but from the fb stuff she wasnt one of the ones that started it all...It really doesnt help that 4 people in that convo had the same first name...very confusing. :lol:


----------



## ClaireLouise

Buster's Mummy said:


> who who who? you made me curious!!!


well, its wasnt me LOL despite the rumours lol


----------



## Starlite

shibby said:


> Is this a joke I'm not aware of :confused1: No, but I would love to race a road hog/mobility scooter!


um no, but ive given up on the thread completely so. .

its actually a laugh, you get some funny looks in the street tho, couldnt figure out why :confused1:


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

DoubleTrouble said:


> Jonbda!
> I have never had a problem with you! but this has now got stupid! That member who said those things has said bad things about many of us! but is it worth us carrying this on! We all know who she is and she ain;t here to defend herself! thats an admission in itself! I hear - on the grapevine she is going to come back in a few days! Save your piece for then!
> 
> DT


*Some things are best left to those concerned Sue. Hardly fair saying what someone should or shouldn't do. If it was a problem between you and another member you wouldn't appreciate someone trying to stop you having your say. *


----------



## Guest

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Some things are best left to those concerned Sue. Hardly fair saying what someone should or shouldn't do. If it was a problem between you and another member you wouldn't appreciate someone trying to stop you having your say. *


 Would anyone stop me having my say? As with yourself but this has got too daft even for me!


----------



## shibby

DoubleTrouble said:


> Heck! I were thinking you were the guy with the border collies and the scooter!
> sorry


Haha, 'fraid not!



Starlite said:


> um no, but ive given up on the thread completely so. .
> 
> its actually a laugh, you get some funny looks in the street tho, couldnt figure out why :confused1:


Ahhh, well lucky you  I could only dream of participating in such fun! I'm sure some of them race me in my car though!


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Jonbda!
> I have never had a problem with you! but this has now got stupid! That member who said those things has said bad things about many of us! but is it worth us carrying this on! We all know who she is and she ain;t here to defend herself! thats an admission in itself! I hear - on the grapevine she is going to come back in a few days! Save your piece for then!
> 
> DT


They know they've done wrong and gone awol...fair enough, two other members had issues with me...thats fine, they've been in touch and all seems well. Just the Princess of 1000 smiley faces left...


----------



## Guest

JERRY.... JERRY.... JERRY!!!! :thumbup:

Sorry


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

DoubleTrouble said:


> Would anyone stop me having my say? As with yourself but this has got too daft even for me!


*Ah but if someone tried to stop me having my say....i'd have alot more to say...lol 
I have no idea what the problem is between certain members...nor is it any of my business. I just think as adults we all get round to sorting things out eventually. *


----------



## Guest

Buster's Mummy said:


> JERRY.... JERRY.... JERRY!!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Sorry


Isn't it 'Jeremy' now?


----------



## Guest

Buster's Mummy said:


> JERRY.... JERRY.... JERRY!!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Sorry


That is a horrid show....really something rotten.

It wasnt to bad but now with the stripper poles.....ew.:scared:


----------



## ClaireLouise

Buster's Mummy said:


> JERRY.... JERRY.... JERRY!!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Sorry


would have to be Jerry Ive got too many teeth to appear on Kylie


----------



## Starlite

shetlandlover said:


> That is a horrid show....really something rotten.
> 
> It wasnt to bad but now with the stripper poles.....ew.:scared:


have you seen the wee half man that "walks" across the stage on his hands?! :scared:


----------



## Guest

Never seen Jerry what's his name...But thought it appropriate to chant 

And yeah it really should be Jeremy but doesn't have the same ring to it!!! 

An hour ago I was off to bed but this thread got good!! :lol:


----------



## shepherd mush

shibby said:


> :thumbup: A post on topic! I like the photography idea  Clever dog...


He he thanks ! everyone seems a bit tied up talking about arguments on facebook


----------



## Guest

Starlite said:


> have you seen the wee half man that "walks" across the stage on his hands?! :scared:


No....I dont have sky anymore but I used to watch it when I got really bored and never saw that bit.

Its always like...imbred red necks who are just...not even human. They never have normal people on these shows.


----------



## shibby

shepherd mush said:


> He he thanks ! everyone seems a bit tied up talking about arguments on facebook


Heheh, I know! I suppose thread like this was never going to run smoothly ...



Starlite said:


> have you seen the wee half man that "walks" across the stage on his hands?! :scared:


If you can't beat em join em  Kenny? YouTube - Jerry Springer - A woman is creeped by Kenny


----------



## snoopydo

My Last Thoughts and Views on this Thread Before I go to Bed.......It may make people think.....


Treat Every Animal/person the way you would like to be treated yourself With Care Compassion and love.....I personally love ALL Animals 100% with my Heart And Soul. AND Cannot stomach Any Cruelty

Dogs are in my Care Everyday for Grooming Needs....And I Treat Everyone of them with the care that I would like my own Dog Cared for if he had to go to someone else for his grooming needs...And If I get a nervous one I actually sit with it and Talk and reassure it with lots of cuddles and kisses.


But they All get that from me anyway ( Even The Ones that Bite me) If I Get bitten I say sorry and explain to the Dog that I know they don't like it etc but it's for their own good..Yes I'm as soft as Shite with them all 

They only bite becouse they don't like the Grooming experience. You HAVE to Think From THEIR point of VEIW Put Yourself in the dogs shoes. so to speak.


I HATE any cruelty to Any Animal and I would do my very best to Save and protect everyone if I could.

My Issue is.....Why would anyone find any enjoyment in Chasing/Trapping killing them.....WHY would anyone even think of considering it?

I had a thread on here about a Rat that moved into my Guinea pig Hutch....I actually made a little house for him/her so that it had food and a safe place to life......But every morning his/her little head popped up out of my Guinea pigs Bedding so i decided to leave them to it .....They seemed very happy together..1 afternoon I looked out of my door and there they were My 2 Guinea pigs and the rat all sat around the food bowl enjoying there dinner...It Did bring a smile to my face... 

My motto live and let animals LIVE....Who are we to take there life's away.

Yes I Do eat meat...But so do animals.....My Issue is killing just for Fun......

Where IS The Fun?....

During this thread I've tried to find out what make people who do this tick/function. And I've not had my question answered.

So please everyone please Respect and love and Care for ALL Animals whether pets or wildlife they need us to look out for them. AND You'll Feel alot better for it.

Treat them As you would like to be treated yourself...And you won't go wrong in life


----------



## noushka05

Spellweaver said:


> Ah. fox-hunting - nothing like a good old favourite to debate to clear the Christmas spirit away!
> 
> Not read all the thread yet - but I will!  - but until I catch up two points are shouting out at me already (apologies if someone has already addressed these):
> 
> 1. Some people have pointed out that we shouldn't judge huntsmen because it's a way of life, it's what they've always done, what they've always known - well, so were children working down the mines, slavery, apartheid, dog-fighting, etc etc etc. They were not right and society did something about them. Fox hunting is not right and society is trying to do something about that too. Just because fox-hunters dress up in pretty clothes and look nice galloping aropund the countryside does not make it less cruel. I hope for once that the Mail is right and that the government is going to put the repeal of the law on ice. After the school fees debacle perhaps the government are now afraid of going against the weight of public opinion in order to satisfy the vociferious few and are not going to repeal the law. I guess it is definitely going to be one of the hot topics on their new petition site for things to be debated in parliament :thumbup:
> 
> 2. Some people have pointed out that we should not argue against fox hunting because of the horrendous way in which we keep farm animals. That's a nonsensical argument - a bit like trying to justify smoking by pointing out that car exhausts emit noxious and dangerous substances too. BOTH are wrong and BOTH need fighting against - and most people I know who are against fox-hunting are against ALL forms of animals cruelty.


didnt get chance to read all the thread last night and i feel i have to quote Spellweavers excellent post....because both these points have been answered brilliantly:thumbup: it makes me lmao when i here the same old argument that we shouldnt care about fox hunting because more animals suffer abuse in intensive farming methods....its a ridiculous argument and only smacks of desperation

some folk have said the fox hunters respect their quarry .... i bet plenty of badger baiters would say they respect the badgers they abuse....but as everyone knows words are cheap and their acts of inhumanity disprove those words.


----------



## Spellweaver

Chillinator said:


> Seriously though, given this forum's past for arguing, I would have thought that we'd all moved on from our old attitude of being less likely to accept other opinions.


I don't think you can ever _accept_ anyone's opinion if it goes against something you fundamentally disagree with - such as, in the case of fox-hunting, horrendous cruelty towards animals. However, you can _respect _someone's right to hold a different opinion to yours - and I have to say, that on this thread, by and large people have done that. People who feel strongly about something and are trying to persuade others to change their opinions is what healthy debate is all about. And except for the odd bit of silliness, this thread has been just that - a healthy debate. If you want a fluffy, nice, we all agree with each other "debate" you should have posted something like "I like porridge for breakfast - do you?"



Sleeping_Lion said:


> The main difference I see, is between those who love animals, and those who respect animals, if you can't understand that those who hunt, and/or shoot, respect their quarry, then you can't see their point of view and will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, very sad


Putting aside for one moment the fact that hunting/shooting is a completely different kettle of fish to the cruelty of fox-hunting, if you cannot understand that people who abhor cruelty to animals will never accept that "respecting" your quarry makes it ok to visit all sorts of cruelty upon them, then you can't see their point of view and your view will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, equally as sad.


----------



## Amethyst

Spellweaver said:


> I don't think you can ever _accept_ anyone's opinion if it goes against something you fundamentally disagree with - such as, in the case of fox-hunting, horrendous cruelty towards animals. However, you can _respect _someone's right to hold a different opinion to yours - and I have to say, that on this thread, by and large people have done that. People who feel strongly about something and are trying to persuade others to change their opinions is what healthy debate is all about. And except for the odd bit of silliness, this thread has been just that - a healthy debate. If you want a fluffy, nice, we all agree with each other "debate" you should have posted something like "I like porridge for breakfast - do you?"
> (


Indeed that just about sums up what I would loved to have said, wise words 

We all have our own standards and morals concerning animal welfare and the respect we believe they deserve. When they are high, it's not surprising people who are genuinely concerned about animal abuse and exploitation, are not going to be accepting of the opinion of those who indulge in or condone animal cruelty.

Animal abuse is animal abuse whether it's dressed up to look appealing and has almost a picture post card air about it, or occurs in a dodgy basement, behind closed doors

Sadly the element of society who enjoys seeing animals suffer, will always try and find a release for their craving 
These people have always been among us and will continue to do so. All we can do is encourage laws which help protect the animals from them and never accept that they have a right to abuse the animal kingdom.

Times are better, things are improving, laws have helped and even though atrocities still happen, the law can do more now than previously. It's a slow change, but times ARE changing.

Hunting with dogs is on it's way into history's dustbin, we just need to keep supporting those who work to hasten that day and NEVER accept that animal abuse on any level, in any guise has a place in a civilised, compassionate society.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Spellweaver said:


> Putting aside for one moment the fact that hunting/shooting is a completely different kettle of fish to the cruelty of fox-hunting, if you cannot understand that people who abhor cruelty to animals will never accept that "respecting" your quarry makes it ok to visit all sorts of cruelty upon them, then you can't see their point of view and your view will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, equally as sad.


I agree, and I'm not necessarily pro fox hunting, I'm firmly on the fence for a number of reasons, but what I can't stand is that people have this opinion on fox hunting and yet brush aside all other cruelty because it would affect their lives having to actually do something about it. We've had this debate before several times, and some people who are completely against any form of hunting or shooting, think that it's acceptable to buy two for a fiver chickens and battery hen eggs, because choosing not to support these cruel practices would affect them directly. I'm afraid I don't agree, if you're against cruelty, then you should change the things that you do first, before you can even contemplate having a go at the way anyone else lives.


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I agree, and I'm not necessarily pro fox hunting, I'm firmly on the fence for a number of reasons, but what I can't stand is that people have this opinion on fox hunting and yet brush aside all other cruelty because it would affect their lives having to actually do something about it. We've had this debate before several times, and some people who are completely against any form of hunting or shooting, think that it's acceptable to buy two for a fiver chickens and battery hen eggs, because choosing not to support these cruel practices would affect them directly. I'm afraid I don't agree, if you're against cruelty, then you should change the things that you do first, before you can even contemplate having a go at the way anyone else lives.


I am HALF with you on this SL!

(using you example re the battery chickens) Unless you have worked in a chicken factory you will not know the atrocities that go on! We are not bombarded photgraphs by the media here much of which is politial anyway! And we can hardly sabatage all the chicken factory workers on the way to work can we now!

Being brought up in the country and having seem the damage done by Mr fox I will be the first to admit that I had NO strong thoughts re fox hunting it were just summat that took place. Foxes do need controlling yes, ! BUT as for the poor animal being hounded by a pack of dogs and pompus riders that are only doing it for sport then I think we really need to sit and think!

WHAT has actually made me have stonger opinions on this that fall on the foxes side is that these folk seem to think they are exempt from the law! Fox hunting is banned! yet THEY DO STILL HUNT WITH DOGS


----------



## JJAK

DoubleTrouble said:


> I am HALF with you on this SL!
> 
> (using you example re the battery chickens) Unless you have worked in a chicken factory you will not know the atrocities that go on! We are not bombarded photgraphs by the media here much of which is politial anyway! And we can hardly sabatage all the chicken factory workers on the way to work can we now!
> 
> Being brought up in the country and having seem the damage done by Mr fox I will be the first to admit that I had NO strong thoughts re fox hunting it were just summat that took place. Foxes do need controlling yes, ! BUT as for the poor animal being hounded by a pack of dogs and pompus riders that are only doing it for sport then I think we really need to sit and think!
> 
> WHAT has actually made me have stonger opinions on this that fall on the foxes side is that these folk seem to think they are exempt from the law! Fox hunting is banned! yet THEY DO STILL HUNT WITH DOGS


Im not tryna re start this arguement! 
Yes fox hunting with hounds IS banned - which say...85%+ of the hunts accept
But drag hunting with hounds is not, to have the hounds out with you is completely within the law...as long as there is a drag (queen or otherwise ;-) )


----------



## Guest

JJAK said:


> Im not tryna re start this arguement!
> Yes fox hunting with hounds IS banned - which say...85%+ of the hunts accept
> But drag hunting with hounds is not, to have the hounds out with you is completely within the law...as long as there is a drag (queen or otherwise ;-) )


So you are telling me that hunting with dogs does not go on on private land then?


----------



## JJAK

DoubleTrouble said:


> So you are telling me that hunting with dogs does not go on on private land then?


I cant answer for all hunts over the country.
Some proberbly do...but what they do is up to that individual hunt, the huntsman etc
But in my own personal experience the hunts i follow have always abided by the land owners wishes...Other than once...which was resolved with the land owner.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

DoubleTrouble said:


> I am HALF with you on this SL!
> 
> (using you example re the battery chickens) Unless you have worked in a chicken factory you will not know the atrocities that go on! We are not bombarded photgraphs by the media here much of which is politial anyway! And we can hardly sabatage all the chicken factory workers on the way to work can we now!
> 
> Being brought up in the country and having seem the damage done by Mr fox I will be the first to admit that I had NO strong thoughts re fox hunting it were just summat that took place. Foxes do need controlling yes, ! BUT as for the poor animal being hounded by a pack of dogs and pompus riders that are only doing it for sport then I think we really need to sit and think!
> 
> WHAT has actually made me have stonger opinions on this that fall on the foxes side is that these folk seem to think they are exempt from the law! Fox hunting is banned! yet THEY DO STILL HUNT WITH DOGS


Yes, but anyone just meeting up even if they don't actually go out with the hounds, are open to abusive behaviour and criminal damage from people who are anti hunting. I'm not saying it never happens the other way around, but I can fully understand the frustration from some huntspeople, with people tresspassing and causing a nuisance, sometimes actually harming people and/or animals, all because they presume every single person involved with hunting are guilty before proven innocent and will set out with the intent to hunt a fox, when that is not the case. There's only one other similar assumption that springs to mind, and that's the DDA, which also presumes guilty unless proven innocent.


----------



## Amy-manycats

To be honest that has nothing to do with the debate. Its a bit like saying everyone who eats chicken breaks the law as some will speed on the way to the shop to buy it. Tresspassing is a seperate crime whinch SOME hunts are occasionally guilty of. 

I have just finished trawling through all of the pages and have taken on board lots of points of view. I have not changed my POV on it at the moment and still maintain there are good and bad aspects of the hunt as there are woth any alternative method that has been suggested.

I'm not sure there is much more anyone has to offer as we will never agree to disagree and I think everyone is entitled to thier opinion so I will probably not add anymore to the discussion.


----------



## Guest

Amy-manycats said:


> To be honest that has nothing to do with the debate. Its a bit like saying everyone who eats chicken breaks the law as some will speed on the way to the shop to buy it. Tresspassing is a seperate crime whinch SOME hunts are occasionally guilty of.
> 
> I have just finished trawling through all of the pages and have taken on board lots of points of view. I have not changed my POV on it at the moment and still maintain there are good and bad aspects of the hunt as there are woth any alternative method that has been suggested.
> 
> I'm not sure there is much more anyone has to offer as we will never agree to disagree and I think everyone is entitled to thier opinion so I will probably not add anymore to the discussion.


Good post! thinking I may sit bak with you on this one!
do you fancy some popcorn?:thumbup:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amy-manycats said:


> To be honest that has nothing to do with the debate. Its a bit like saying everyone who eats chicken breaks the law as some will speed on the way to the shop to buy it. Tresspassing is a seperate crime whinch SOME hunts are occasionally guilty of.
> 
> I have just finished trawling through all of the pages and have taken on board lots of points of view. I have not changed my POV on it at the moment and still maintain there are good and bad aspects of the hunt as there are woth any alternative method that has been suggested.
> 
> I'm not sure there is much more anyone has to offer as we will never agree to disagree and I think everyone is entitled to thier opinion so I will probably not add anymore to the discussion.


I think it has everything to do with the debate, people don't like fox hunting because it's cruel, and yet they are willing to fund cruelty because they like cheap chicken and eggs etc. The issue with fox hunting has never been what's lawful, it's because people think foxes are cute and fluffy and don't like the thought of them being chased by dogs and ripped apart. But they're happy that chickens live abismal and short lives, and at the end are slaughtered in awful conditions, because they don't want to pay more. It's called affordable ethics, and we're all guilty of it to some extent.


----------



## JJAK

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good post! thinking I may sit bak with you on this one!
> do you fancy some popcorn?:thumbup:


Iv got the chocolate :thumbup:
Anyone want some?


----------



## Amy-manycats

Sorry Sleeping Lion I agree with you I should have quoted the tresspassing thing. Everyone who hunts (drag?) apparently now break the law by trespassing. My chicken on the way to the shops thing was just a poor example I could just of easily used carrots lol


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think it has everything to do with the debate, people don't like fox hunting because it's cruel, and yet they are willing to fund cruelty because they like cheap chicken and eggs etc. The issue with fox hunting has never been what's lawful, it's because people think foxes are cute and fluffy and don't like the thought of them being chased by dogs and ripped apart. But they're happy that chickens live abismal and short lives, and at the end are slaughtered in awful conditions, because they don't want to pay more. It's called affordable ethics, and we're all guilty of it to some extent.


i dont know of any animal lover who is happy that chickens being treated like that.

I for one try my best to do what i can to buy my food responsibly, but its difficult.

Ur generelizing that all people who are against fox hunting dont care about how chickens are treated etc.


----------



## Tapir

yes but we have all been generalized as pompous, stuck up, bloodthirsty monsters... who break the law


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amy-manycats said:


> Sorry Sleeping Lion I agree with you I should have quoted the tresspassing thing. Everyone who hunts (drag?) apparently now break the law by trespassing. My chicken on the way to the shops thing was just a poor example I could just of easily used carrots lol


Not if they have the permission of the land owner.



Natik said:


> i dont know of any animal lover who is happy that chickens being treated like that.
> 
> I for one try my best to do what i can to buy my food responsibly, but its difficult.
> 
> Ur generelizing that all people who are against fox hunting dont care about how chickens are treated etc.


Really?? Because during one of these debates previously, someone who is veyr anti hunting and loves animals admitted they could only afford to buy the two for a fiver chickens, and someone else said they could only afford battery hen eggs. So that's two people off here that are animal lovers who are willing to knowingly fund cruelty, but speak out against other forms of animal cruelty.


----------



## JJAK

Natik said:


> Ur generelizing that all people who are against fox hunting dont care about how chickens are treated etc.


And everyone else was generalising that people who are pro fox hunting dont hunt within the law, tresspass, dont care about the welfare of the dogs/horses and automatically have lower standards for their own animals. - which is as far from the truth as it can possibly get.


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not if they have the permission of the land owner.
> 
> Really?? Because during one of these debates previously, someone who is veyr anti hunting and loves animals admitted they could only afford to buy the two for a fiver chickens, and someone else said they could only afford battery hen eggs. So that's two people off here that are animal lovers who are willing to knowingly fund cruelty, but speak out against other forms of animal cruelty.


but u still are generelizing, 2 people doesnt equal everyone.

And not being able to afford more expensive food and buying cheap food so u save up for ciggies for instance there is a differenence i believe.

Everything that is cheap and even some of the expensive stuff comes with some sort of cruel industry behind it, be it that animals are exploitet or human beings in poor countries. Noone can wash their hands totally of some sort of cruelty these days...sadly.


----------



## Natik

JJAK said:


> And everyone else was generalising that people who are pro fox hunting dont hunt within the law, tresspass, dont care about the welfare of the dogs/horses and automatically have lower standards for their own animals. - which is as far from the truth as it can possibly get.


i havent read the whole thread, so cant comment on that.


----------



## cool-jim

I spent all yesterday evening trawling through all the posts on this subject. My opinion on hunting with hounds has not changed one bit. I'm Pro hunting for food only, Not for alledged sport. I say alledged because I believe in sport the opposing sides should have an equal chance. And going on about Drag hunting, is side stepping the issue, which is the potential reppeal which would allow the 'Sport' of hunting foxes with hounds to go ahead.

I do have a couple of questions for the pro hunting people. I'll ask it even though the Pro hunting members are not good at answering them. If the hounds are so well trained to follow a given scent, when they are legally drag hunting why do the hounds ignore the scent and go after a real fox? and why do you have so little control over these potentially dangerous animals?

If a pet dog had attacked and killed someone elses pet then that animal would in this day and age be PTS itself. But hunt hounds seem to get away with it on the grounds that accidents happen.

For Bellathemog


----------



## Robynkeating

cool-jim said:


> I spent all yesterday evening trawling through all the posts on this subject. My opinion on hunting with hounds has not changed one bit. I'm Pro hunting for food only, Not for alledged sport. I say alledged because I believe in sport the opposing sides should have an equal chance. And going on about Drag hunting, is side stepping the issue, which is the potential reppeal which would allow the 'Sport' of hunting foxes with hounds to go ahead.
> 
> I do have a couple of questions for the pro hunting people. I'll ask it even though the Pro hunting members are not good at answering them. If the hounds are so well trained to follow a given scent, when they are legally drag hunting why do the hounds ignore the scent and go after a real fox? and why do you have so little control over these potentially dangerous animals?
> 
> If a pet dog had attacked and killed someone elses pet then that animal would in this day and age be PTS itself. But hunt hounds seem to get away with it on the grounds that accidents happen.
> 
> For Bellathemog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> in most circumstances out drag hunting the dogs follow the scent, 9 times out of 10 they will not find a fox, however, if the dogs do the whippers in on the horses try and get the dogs out of the woods or were ever. The hunt i hunt with has good control of these hounds, the dogs are punished if they flush animals too, one hound flushed a deer the other day and was told off to the extent that it would not do it again. you cannot always expect these animals to just forget what they have done for centuries can you, its like bringing home a wild wolf and expecting it to not kill other people animals ?


----------



## Robynkeating

in most circumstances out drag hunting the dogs follow the scent, 9 times out of 10 they will not find a fox, however, if the dogs do the whippers in on the horses try and get the dogs out of the woods or were ever. The hunt i hunt with has good control of these hounds, the dogs are punished if they flush animals too, one hound flushed a deer the other day and was told off to the extent that it would not do it again. you cannot always expect these animals to just forget what they have done for centuries can you, its like bringing home a wild wolf and expecting it to not kill other people animals ?


----------



## MissShelley

Robynkeating said:


> in most circumstances out drag hunting the dogs follow the scent, 9 times out of 10 they will not find a fox, however, if the dogs do the whippers in on the horses try and get the dogs out of the woods or were ever. The hunt i hunt with has good control of these hounds, *the dogs are punished if they flush animals too, one hound flushed a deer the other day and was told off to the extent that it would not do it again*. you cannot always expect these animals to just forget what they have done for centuries can you, its like bringing home a wild wolf and expecting it to not kill other people animals ?


Then you don't take them if you have no control over them.... And explain punishment for the dogs??? As an avid dog lover, who advocates positive training that sentence is ringing alarm bells.


----------



## Robynkeating

these hounds are not pets they are working dogs, they are completely different to domestic dogs that live in the house, dont think you lot can grasp this consept


----------



## dobermummy

MissShelley said:


> Then you don't take them if you have no control over them.... And explain punishment for the dogs??? As an avid dog lover, who advocates positive training that sentence is ringing alarm bells.


i thought that too, what sort of telling off can ensure the dog wont do it again??


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> but u still are generelizing, 2 people doesnt equal everyone.
> 
> And not being able to afford more expensive food and buying cheap food so u save up for ciggies for instance there is a differenence i believe.
> 
> Everything that is cheap and even some of the expensive stuff comes with some sort of cruel industry behind it, be it that animals are exploitet or human beings in poor countries. Noone can wash their hands totally of some sort of cruelty these days...sadly.


No, you're generalising, two people off the top of my head, that openly admitted they know by buying these food products they are supporting cruel practices, how many more people do you imagine are also willing to do the same? Not sure where you're coming from with the ciggies thing, if you need to be able to afford better food from ethical food producers, give up the ciggies, simple really. You're right, no-one can wash their hands totally of cruelty, but there's a lot people can do, but don't bother, because it will have an undesirable impact on their life.



cool-jim said:


> I spent all yesterday evening trawling through all the posts on this subject. My opinion on hunting with hounds has not changed one bit. I'm Pro hunting for food only, Not for alledged sport. I say alledged because I believe in sport the opposing sides should have an equal chance. And going on about Drag hunting, is side stepping the issue, which is the potential reppeal which would allow the 'Sport' of hunting foxes with hounds to go ahead.
> 
> I do have a couple of questions for the pro hunting people. I'll ask it even though the Pro hunting members are not good at answering them. If the hounds are so well trained to follow a given scent, when they are legally drag hunting why do the hounds ignore the scent and go after a real fox? and why do you have so little control over these potentially dangerous animals?
> 
> If a pet dog had attacked and killed someone elses pet then that animal would in this day and age be PTS itself. But hunt hounds seem to get away with it on the grounds that accidents happen.
> 
> For Bellathemog


Hounds have been bred for many years to use their nose and track to hunt, they are trained to track the scent of a fox. If they come across a fresher scent of a fox, they will follow that one, and depending on exact circumstances, it might well be difficult to get them off that track. There's an awful lot to consider, ground conditions, weather conditions, ground and cover type, how fresh the track might be, no dog is a robot and will respond 100% of the time to a command in the way you want.


----------



## MissShelley

Robynkeating said:


> these hounds are not pets they are working dogs, they are completely different to domestic dogs that live in the house, dont think you lot can grasp this consept


Um, yes I can grasp the concept thank you having spent most of my life around working dogs..The ones who I know get treated exactly the same as any domestic pet!.... My own dog was from working lines ( Police dog ) he was a pet... But was still utilised ( as are the majority of working dogs, police dogs are working dogs, yet they are also family pets when off duty ) the training and obedience was exactly the same....

So, stop dodging the issue explain exactly what you mean by punishment?


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> Then you don't take them if you have no control over them.... And explain punishment for the dogs??? As an avid dog lover, who advocates positive training that sentence is ringing alarm bells.


It rang a lot of bells for me too! As an owner of a beagle who has been shocked into behaving with an electric collar and struck in punishment I can only hope these hounds are not punished negatively!


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> Um, yes I can grasp the concept thank you having spent most of my life around working dogs..The ones who I know get treated exactly the same as any domestic pet!.... My own dog was from working lines ( Police dog ) he was a pet... But was still utilised ( as are the majority of working dogs, police dogs are working dogs, yet they are also family pets when off duty ) the training and obedience was exactly the same....
> 
> So, stop dodging the issue explain exactly what you mean by punishment?


100% agree! I know of many working dogs they have never ever been hit and never ever will be hit! :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> I spent all yesterday evening trawling through all the posts on this subject. My opinion on hunting with hounds has not changed one bit. I'm Pro hunting for food only, Not for alledged sport. I say alledged because I believe in sport the opposing sides should have an equal chance. And going on about Drag hunting, is side stepping the issue, which is the potential reppeal which would allow the 'Sport' of hunting foxes with hounds to go ahead.
> 
> I do have a couple of questions for the pro hunting people. I'll ask it even though the Pro hunting members are not good at answering them. If the hounds are so well trained to follow a given scent, when they are legally drag hunting why do the hounds ignore the scent and go after a real fox? and why do you have so little control over these potentially dangerous animals?
> 
> If a pet dog had attacked and killed someone elses pet then that animal would in this day and age be PTS itself. But hunt hounds seem to get away with it on the grounds that accidents happen.
> 
> For Bellathemog


Welcome to the forum!! An excellent first post...I agree 100% with what you say and if I have rep left you are getting a green blob


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

i hate you people - when i left this thread was on 38, now i have all those pages to catch up on  damn you all :lol: x


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, you're generalising, two people off the top of my head, that openly admitted they know by buying these food products they are supporting cruel practices, how many more people do you imagine are also willing to do the same? Not sure where you're coming from with the ciggies thing, if you need to be able to afford better food from ethical food producers, give up the ciggies, simple really. You're right, no-one can wash their hands totally of cruelty, but there's a lot people can do, but don't bother, because it will have an undesirable impact on their life.
> 
> .


what am i generelising about? Of course there will be more, but still not everyone 

and fair enough if u talk about those people, but to say everyone who is against fox hunting is happy about the way chickens are treated is wrong. Cause i do care about chickens and all other animals, and do try my best not to support those industries.

and the ciggies was just an example, just worded it different to highlight that those people who can afford cruelty free food choose not to so they can go and buy other to me unnecessary items with the saved up money and that they differ to those who genuinly dont have the money to constantly buy cruelty free items, not even just food!


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> 100% agree! I know of many working dogs they have never ever been hit and never ever will be hit! :thumbup:


Exactly, they are treated with the utmost respect, as they have their jobs and do them well, their skills are invaluable :thumbup:


----------



## smudgiesmummy

I've been following this thread since it started and I'm not suprised it's gone off topic, no topic on here stays on topic that's what I hate about this site , up until it went off topic I was quite interested in watching what everyones views were but not any more, I'm amazed it's not been closed yet , well done for the op for starting a very debatable subject 
I can see where both sides come from but I still stand on what I believe and that's I'm against fox hunting and yes I've read every single post


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> what am i generelising about? Of course there will be more, but still not everyone
> 
> and fair enough if u talk about those people, but to say everyone who is against fox hunting is happy about the way chickens are treated is wrong. Cause i do care about chickens and all other animals, and do try my best not to support those industries.
> 
> and the ciggies was just an example, just worded it different to highlight that those people who can afford cruelty free food choose not to so they can go and buy other to me unnecessary items with the saved up money and that they differ to those who genuinly dont have the money to constantly buy cruelty free items, not even just food!


You're generalising in thinking that the majority of people who know these practices are cruel, will refuse to buy them on those grounds, they don't, they'd only refuse to buy them if they could afford to buy a more ethical product. I haven't said anywhere that everyone against fox hunting is happy about any poor treatment of any animal, BUT there are many people who are anti cruelty that knowingly turn a blind eye to suit their lifestyle when they need to. That's what I have an issue with


----------



## Guest

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> i hate you people - when i left this thread was on 38, now i have all those pages to catch up on  damn you all :lol: x


Skip pages 60 onwards as this was a remake of Jeremy Kyle!! :thumbup:

Hard to follow but fun to read!!


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> It rang a lot of bells for me too! As an owner of a beagle who has been shocked into behaving with an electric collar and struck in punishment I can only hope these hounds are not punished negatively!


 there is no need whatsoever to resort to these so called 'training' methods  Just an excuse to inflict cruelty

Thank goodness your Beagle is safe and loved now, give him a big *hug* from me! :thumbup:


----------



## Waterlily

MissShelley said:


> Um, yes I can grasp the concept thank you having spent most of my life around working dogs..The ones who I know get treated exactly the same as any domestic pet!.... My own dog was from working lines ( Police dog ) he was a pet... But was still utilised ( as are the majority of working dogs, police dogs are working dogs, yet they are also family pets when off duty ) the training and obedience was exactly the same....
> 
> So, stop dodging the issue explain exactly what you mean by punishment?


yeah I'd like to know too 



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> i hate you people - when i left this thread was on 38, now i have all those pages to catch up on  damn you all :lol: x


haha same here, damn time zone  :lol:


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You're generalising in thinking that the majority of people who know these practices are cruel, will refuse to buy them on those grounds, they don't, they'd only refuse to buy them if they could afford to buy a more ethical product. I haven't said anywhere that everyone against fox hunting is happy about any poor treatment of any animal, BUT there are many people who are anti cruelty that knowingly turn a blind eye to suit their lifestyle when they need to. That's what I have an issue with


u used the term people in ur past post, thats generalising and putting everyone in the same boat, u then made clear in ur other post by explaining what type of people u was on about.

And i was just giving an example of comparison as to what they differ in.

There are also plenty of people who are against cruelty who dont turn a blind eye to suit their lifestyle, and do their best they can not to support those practices.


----------



## Guest

MissShelley said:


> there is no need whatsoever to resort to these so called 'training' methods  Just an excuse to inflict cruelty
> 
> Thank goodness your Beagle is safe and loved now, give him a big *hug* from me! :thumbup:


I'll give her a big hug!!  When I get out of this place called work!!!  

When she came to us she couldn't sit, stay, recall was bad, didn't know any commands at all we one day tried to give the action for lie down and she cowered away  but after clicker training and love she can do everything and I am one proud mummy, we even played fetch yesterday and she is a playful madam! :thumbup:


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> I'll give her a big hug!!  When I get out of this place called work!!!
> 
> When she came to us she couldn't sit, stay, recall was bad, didn't know any commands at all we one day tried to give the action for lie down and she cowered away  but after clicker training and love she can do everything and I am one proud mummy, we even played fetch yesterday and she is a playful madam! :thumbup:


:thumbup: that's brilliant! And proud you should be! She has come a very long way with your love and patience.

Sowwy for mistaking her for a him  Hope she doesn't mind!


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

So let me get this straight, the people who are for fox hunting think we should just agree to disagree and that we have lots to learn from them and their 'sport' . Really? That's your argument? When everything else you say is proven to be b*llocks, we should just stand back, accept and respect your opinion? Sorry, but respect has to be earned in my opinion and the fact not one person who hunts foxes or agrees with it on this thread can give me a reasonable argument for doing it lowers my respect for them. Instead, they have resorted to complaining about the comments they are receiving - if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you online how the hell do you handle it in real life :frown:? For some things in life there is no 'middle of the way'. Some things are simply right or wrong and fox hunting is wrong imo. That will not change until someone pro fox hunting gives me a plausible argument for it.


----------



## Guest

She doesn't mind! 

But Buster said he'd like a hug too!


----------



## nfp20

bellathemog said:


> My view on hunting should be banned
> 
> This is a VERY true story that happened to my husband at the time.
> 
> 10 yrs ago while he was out walking along the track (he was a track inspector for network rail) he came across a "hunt" these "objects" were on their horses with hounds racing after this fox.
> 
> The fox as I understand came running down the track towards my husband and as my husband said " it was the worst sight he had ever seen looking into this foxes eyes". The hounds started to follow, he then see the fox go into the tunnel and he and another worker stood their ground and did EVERYTHING to stop the hounds going through the tunnel. 1. for safety reasons 2. because he HATED everything about hunting.
> 
> They did stop the hounds from entering by force and the dogs then started to as I was told head up the banks around the tunnel. Then 6 "objects" on horseback came up and started shouting and swearing at my husband and fellow workmate.
> 
> My husband told them to get off the track for safety reasons but these "objects" did not want to know. one "object" then got off the horse with gun in hand and threaten my husband. He told them again to get off the track and again did not want to move, so he called the transport police.
> 
> These animals who hunt need to get a "check" on life, its a cruel cruel so called sport.
> 
> I for one would do my best to help a fox in trouble like my husband need.
> 
> People who find it a sport to kill foxes plus feel free to let me get on horse back with a pack of hounds and a gun and chase you around to death because you need to feel how these foxes feel.
> 
> And YES hounds do go for pets! My sister cat got killed by these idiots.


If this is true then your husband should have phoned the police. They do hunting and hunters no favours and are putting themselves, their dogs and horses in danger by being on the tracks and attempting to go through a tunnel. I doubt anyone would genuinely want to do that and as far as I was aware the majority of railway track are not accessible to the general public otherwise the company themselves are failing to protect the public.


----------



## Tapir

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you online how the hell do you handle it in real life :frown:? .


I can handle it. You don't agree. I stated this about 40 pages back 
You can't handle us disagreeing with you. As far as I can see, we have been more than fair, listening and accepting your views. I don't feel like I need to earn your respect. The thread was opened for oppinions, i put mine forward. End of. I accept people disagreeing with me. It's the anti's that can't.


----------



## MissShelley

Buster's Mummy said:


> She doesn't mind!
> 
> But Buster said he'd like a hug too!


Awww big *hugs* for Buster!!!

I miss my poochy cuddles!


----------



## MissShelley

Tapir said:


> I can handle it. You don't agree. I stated this about 40 pages back
> You can't handle us disagreeing with you. As far as I can see, we have been more than fair, listening and accepting your views. I don't feel like I need to earn your respect. The thread was opened for oppinions, i put mine forward. End of. I accept people disagreeing with me. It's the anti's that can't.


The majority of pro posters have to be fair, but a select few have taken the comments they received from antis to another level... They didn't like what they were being told, for whatever reason. Accusing certain members of 'ganging up' isn't acceptable imho, because afterall everyone is entitled... That's what makes a healthy debate yeah, not to go backbiting away from the thread


----------



## Waterlily

Tapir said:


> I can handle it. You don't agree. I stated this about 40 pages back
> You can't handle us disagreeing with you. As far as I can see, we have been more than fair, listening and accepting your views. I don't feel like I need to earn your respect. The thread was opened for oppinions, i put mine forward. End of. I accept people disagreeing with me. It's the anti's that can't.


well the antis are passionate about life been taken, the pros passionate about taking life, why the eff should we understand that. Will add, its not about the disagreeing its about what hunters do is brutal as **** and selfish. Any person with 
compassion wouldnt handle that imo. And its good ya dont care about our respect cos ya wont ever get it


----------



## bellathemog

Inca's Mum said:


> love, if you looked at the picture properly you would see the tele is behind us, we are talking to some friends that came around on christmas day.:eek6:


'Love' if you'd read more of the posts after that one you would've noticed that i apologised for not seeing the tv first time around.


----------



## Natik

the answers to support fox hunting i read from this thread is that fox hunting is just something that happens.... so tradition.

And tradition is no excuse for cruelty.

We are all people with a brain and with our own thoughts and minds, and regardless of how i was brought up and how many times my family would have told me that its ok to kill foxes in a cruel way for the sake of a tradition i still would stand up and say "hold on, actually its not ok" unless i would find some sort of enjoyment in the fact that a animal is being ripped apart.

And the other point was that its a great day out to socialize. But how can someone enjoy socializing knowing that a poor animal is most likly going to be ripped apart on the expense of me having a chit chat with some peeps on horses. I could think of better ways to socialize where i wouldnt have to go to bed thinking that my day out just caused severe cruelty to an animal.


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> well the antis are passionate about life been taken, the pros passionate about taking life, why the eff should we respect that.


That post made me smile...completely agree :thumbup:


----------



## bellathemog

nfp20 said:


> If this is true then your husband should have phoned the police. They do hunting and hunters no favours and are putting themselves, their dogs and horses in danger by being on the tracks and attempting to go through a tunnel. I doubt anyone would genuinely want to do that and as far as I was aware the majority of railway track are not accessible to the general public otherwise the company themselves are failing to protect the public.


Read my post. transport police was called. And yep because the crossings fall across farmers fields they did at the time use that area alot.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Tapir said:


> I can handle it. You don't agree. I stated this about 40 pages back
> You can't handle us disagreeing with you. As far as I can see, we have been more than fair, listening and accepting your views. I don't feel like I need to earn your respect. The thread was opened for oppinions, i put mine forward. End of. I accept people disagreeing with me. It's the anti's that can't.


From what I can see the antis have accepted that you disagree. They will not accept what you do because they have more backbone than that but they accept that you disagree. As far as I can see, for the past 30 pages any arguments against fox hunting have been viewed as us being bitchy and refusing to accept your views . I don't see where I said I can't handle you disagreeing with me. You enjoy fox hunting, I don't. It's been mentioned that we apparently aren't looking at this properly and are pretty much keeping our eyes closed. I gave you an opportunity to give me some valid reasons for fox hunting and you came back with - 'you can't accept our views'. It says it all really.


----------



## Waterlily

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> From what I can see the antis have accepted that you disagree. They will not accept what you do because they have more backbone than that but they accept that you disagree. As far as I can see, for the past 30 pages any arguments against fox hunting have been viewed as us being bitchy and refusing to accept your views . I don't see where I said I can't handle you disagreeing with me. You enjoy fox hunting, I don't. It's been mentioned that we apparently aren't looking at this properly and are pretty much keeping our eyes closed. I gave you an opportunity to give me some valid reasons for fox hunting and you came back with - 'you can't accept our views'. It says it all really.


exactly, theres not a thing that can be said to make me agree, and I also accept they have an opinion but when that opinion supports torture and self gratification in the name of sport then that opinion is never gonna be respected.


----------



## cool-jim

Waterlily said:


> exactly, theres not a thing that can be said to make me agree, and I also accept they have an opinion but when that opinion supports torture and self gratification in the name of sport then that opinion is never gonna be respected.


Can people stop calling it sport. It could only be a sport if there were equal numbers of Foxes and Hounds, The foxes were trained to hunt and kill hounds, and were followed by fox lovers on horses, quad bikes and cars.

This is not aimed at you in particular Waterlily, but everyone that's calling a barbaric outdated pasttime a 'sport'


----------



## Waterlily

cool-jim said:


> Can people stop calling it sport. It could only be a sport if there were equal numbers of Foxes and Hounds, The foxes were trained to hunt and kill hounds, and were followed by fox lovers on horses, quad bikes and cars.
> 
> This is not aimed at you in particular Waterlily, but everyone that's calling a barbaric outdated pasttime a 'sport'


Well it may not be a "sport" as such but its still a selfish and brutal form of entertainment, so changing that one word in my post wont matter. Ya get my drift and what I meant.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> u used the term people in ur past post, thats generalising and putting everyone in the same boat, u then made clear in ur other post by explaining what type of people u was on about.
> 
> And i was just giving an example of comparison as to what they differ in.
> 
> There are also plenty of people who are against cruelty who dont turn a blind eye to suit their lifestyle, and do their best they can not to support those practices.


What do you want me to call them? They are people after all? Did I put ALL people?? 'Some' people choose to make decisions that go against their general ethical beliefs, because they don't want their lives to be affected in an adverse way, that's up to them, but I think it's wrong if you disagree with one cruelty, to turn a blind eye to another, just because it suits you (the royal use of the word there  ).

I'm not saying there aren't people who don't do their best not to support cruelty, but there are plenty that couldn't give two hoots about how their life style impacts on other animals and cultures, and a lot of those will be anti fox hunting, for the reasons I've stated previously.

Foxes are beautiful creatures but they can and do become a nuisance. Their numbers do need controlling, the same as with any other species that creates an imbalance, particularly alien species (not the outer space type, chuckle). Fox hunting on horse back isn't always the best method, there are other more effective methods in the vast majority of cases, there are far more foxes killed by lamping than ever by fox hunters.


----------



## Spellweaver

Amethyst said:


> We all have our own standards and morals concerning animal welfare and the respect we believe they deserve. When they are high, it's not surprising people who are genuinely concerned about animal abuse and exploitation, are not going to be accepting of the opinion of those who indulge in or condone animal cruelty.
> 
> Animal abuse is animal abuse whether it's dressed up to look appealing and has almost a picture post card air about it, or occurs in a dodgy basement, behind closed doors
> 
> Sadly the element of society who enjoys seeing animals suffer, will always try and find a release for their craving
> These people have always been among us and will continue to do so. All we can do is encourage laws which help protect the animals from them and never accept that they have a right to abuse the animal kingdom.
> 
> Times are better, things are improving, laws have helped and even though atrocities still happen, the law can do more now than previously. It's a slow change, but times ARE changing.
> 
> Hunting with dogs is on it's way into history's dustbin, we just need to keep supporting those who work to hasten that day and NEVER accept that animal abuse on any level, in any guise has a place in a civilised, compassionate society.


Spot on! Rep coming your way as soon as it will let me :thumbup:


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I didn't even need to move my fingers, good point!
> 
> How many people know of others who have pets that aren't well kept, children allowed to keep hamsters and fish, and, of course, they all live a full and happy life 100% of the time.
> 
> Foxhounds are not pets, they are working animals, and they're not the only working animal by far not to live to the full possible extent of their life. Doesn't mean that they are uncared for, and treated inhumanely, in fact by far the opposite, they are living a very natural life and obviously gain enjoyment from that.


many failed and 'old' gundogs suffer the same fate as the foxhounds! so if you bred a litter of working labs Sleeping_Lion and sold them to working homes, you'd be okay if they didnt make the grade and were shot before their time so long as they'd had a fulfilled say year or so would you?



Spellweaver said:


> I don't think you can ever _accept_ anyone's opinion if it goes against something you fundamentally disagree with - such as, in the case of fox-hunting, horrendous cruelty towards animals. However, you can _respect _someone's right to hold a different opinion to yours - and I have to say, that on this thread, by and large people have done that. People who feel strongly about something and are trying to persuade others to change their opinions is what healthy debate is all about. And except for the odd bit of silliness, this thread has been just that - a healthy debate. If you want a fluffy, nice, we all agree with each other "debate" you should have posted something like "I like porridge for breakfast - do you?"
> 
> Putting aside for one moment the fact that hunting/shooting is a completely different kettle of fish to the cruelty of fox-hunting, if you cannot understand that people who abhor cruelty to animals will never accept that "respecting" your quarry makes it ok to visit all sorts of cruelty upon them, then you can't see their point of view and your view will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, equally as sad.


once again another extremely well said post

your 1st point is put across excellently....and this is how i feel towards pro fox hunters, i respect their right to hold a different opinion to mine but cant ever accept that their views are anything but cruel.....

i have had my opinions on another vile hunting passtime (trophy hunting) mocked by a couple of members on another forum, they said my opinions on the subject were pink and fluffy disneyland views(hence my new location!:thumbup and laa laa land views, ive had the same two members sneer and mock me on a thread i did about plans to amend the endangered species act so endangered wolves can be thrown off it!....i found their attitudes quite disturbing :arf:

....so i think this debate has gone quite well really


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What do you want me to call them? They are people after all?.


u know exactly what i meant.


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think it has everything to do with the debate, people don't like fox hunting because it's cruel, and yet they are willing to fund cruelty because they like cheap chicken and eggs etc. The issue with fox hunting has never been what's lawful, it's because people think foxes are cute and fluffy and don't like the thought of them being chased by dogs and ripped apart. But they're happy that chickens live abismal and short lives, and at the end are slaughtered in awful conditions, because they don't want to pay more. It's called affordable ethics, and we're all guilty of it to some extent.


If that is indeed what some people do then they definitely need to look towards their double standards. No doubt you have met people like these, hun, or you would not feel so strongly about it. However - and I'm only repeating this because you keep repeating the above  - in my experience, people who are passionate about stopping fox hunting are passionate about stopping ALL kinds of cruelty towards animals. So to try to use factory farming as an excuse for allowing foxes to be ripped to shreds is fallacious. BOTH are wrong and BOTH need fighting against. It's got nothing to do with foxes being "cute and fluffy" - chickens and lambs are "cute and fluffy" - and to try to make that into the sole reason that people are against fox hunting is actually quite insulting to those of us who care passionately about ANY kind of cruelty towards ANY animal -be it foxes, pigs, calves, chickens, dogs, cats ...................


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think it has everything to do with the debate, people don't like fox hunting because it's cruel, and yet they are willing to fund cruelty because they like cheap chicken and eggs etc. The issue with fox hunting has never been what's lawful, it's because people think foxes are cute and fluffy and don't like the thought of them being chased by dogs and ripped apart. But they're happy that chickens live abismal and short lives, and at the end are slaughtered in awful conditions, because they don't want to pay more. It's called affordable ethics, and we're all guilty of it to some extent.


Nope, not always true, we don't buy cheap chicken or eggs in this household 

Cruelty and animal abuse is the same whatever the animal, they are sentient beings whatever their aesthetic appeal or otherwise.


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Nope, not always true, we don't buy cheap chicken or eggs in this household
> 
> Cruelty and animal abuse is the same whatever the animal, they are sentient beings whatever their aesthetic appeal or otherwise.


I dont either...infact out butcher is free range and I often spend a small fortune in there instead of buying from ASDA, tesco and so on..


----------



## piggybaker

I have my own chickens,, can't get fresher than that LOL


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> And everyone else was generalising that people who are pro fox hunting dont hunt within the law, tresspass, dont care about the welfare of the dogs/horses and automatically have lower standards for their own animals. - which is as far from the truth as it can possibly get.


How can anyone say with a straight face they care about the welfare of the hounds when they know they are killed in middle age or younger, because they are no longer suitable to support the hobby they enjoy? Of course nobody who cares about animals and their welfare is going to take their claims to care about the welfare of animals involved seriously ...

One person said they don't see them as pet's which begs the question how do they see them? Commodities to be disposed of when no longer of use?

Quite horrible and a bit frightening


----------



## Spellweaver

Robynkeating said:


> these hounds are not pets they are working dogs, they are completely different to domestic dogs that live in the house, dont think you lot can grasp this consept


You insult my intelligence. Owning and breeding border collies, I can fully grasp the concept of what a working dog is. But cruelty is cruelty, whether it be to a working dog or a pet dog. 

From talking to JJAK, I know that some hunters care very much about their animals - but honestly, can you pro-hunters wonder why anti-hunters get the impression they don't care about their animals at all


----------



## Amethyst

Robynkeating said:


> The hunt i hunt with has good control of these hounds, the dogs are punished if they flush animals too, one hound flushed a deer the other day and was told off to the extent that it would not do it again. you cannot always expect these animals to just forget what they have done for centuries can you, its like bringing home a wild wolf and expecting it to not kill other people animals ?


Oh yes I can imagine how they are punished to the extent that they "would not do it again" ... Doubt they use modern reward based training methods


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> Nope, not always true, we don't buy cheap chicken or eggs in this household
> 
> Cruelty and animal abuse is the same whatever the animal, they are sentient beings whatever their aesthetic appeal or otherwise.


same here i try to shop as ethically as i can, and im also concerned with the treatment of ALL animals, they all deserve care and compassion dosent matter what they look like!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> many failed and 'old' gundogs suffer the same fate as the foxhounds! so if you bred a litter of working labs Sleeping_Lion and sold them to working homes, you'd be okay if they didnt make the grade and were shot before their time so long as they'd had a fulfilled say year or so would you?


What on earth are you talking about? Really, not even sensible enough a point to respond to.



Natik said:


> u know exactly what i meant.


Actually no I didn't, I have used the word people to describe people who have double standards, because SOME do, and they are people 

Spellweaver, forgot to quote you hun, the problem is that I think people feel that those who are anti fox hunting do, for the most part, make the greatest of efforts to ensure they don't support cruelty. That simply can't be true, the majority of the public would, if you asked them, be anti hunting, and yet we still have very cruel methods of raising and slaughtering animals that people generally (not all, but many) are willing to support because it's affordable. There are plenty who do make the effort, but there are plenty who really just can't be bothered, they'd have to actually do something, like read a label, perhaps do a bit of research, or (God forbid) buy from a good butchers who stock meat from animals raised and slaughtered locally, in an ethical way.

The fox hunting issue is bizarre, it manages to evoke such strong feeling, and yet nobody feels the same about the control of other species like rats, crows, pigeons, rabbits, deer etc. I can (and have said many times) see the point that hunting a fox on horse back with dogs is not always the best way to kill a particular fox, but why is it that it evokes such strong feeling? It's like the ridiculous hype surrounding the killing of the Exmoor Emperor, what a load of rubbish was spouted about that, the daftest thing claiming he was Britains largest mammal


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> same here i try to shop as ethically as i can, and im also concerned with the treatment of ALL animals, they all deserve care and compassion dosent matter what they look like!


Yes, it's getting easier to shop ethically and a little cheaper, especially if you can shop around a little bit. I don't always claim to get it right, but I try and think about what impact my purchases have on animal welfare and the environment  It's not that difficult to do!


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Actually no I didn't, I have used the word people to describe people who have double standards, because SOME do, and they are people


so if i would say breeders are breeding solely for monetary gain, u wouldnt think i would generelise, no? Because SOME do breed for money, and they are breeders


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> I accept people disagreeing with me. It's the anti's that can't.


There is a very good reason for that, though. It's because all you are arguing for is something that you like to do, and it's easy to accept that some people might not like the things that you like to do, easy to just think "what the hell," shrug and walk away. However, the antis are arguing against something much more important than a leisure pursuit. They are arguing against horrendous cruelty to an animal - much higher stakes, much more worth arguing for, and much harder to shrug, walk away and let it continue.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> so if i would say breeders are breeding solely for monetary gain, u wouldnt think i would generelise, no? Because SOME do breed for money, and they are breeders


Geez, did I forget to say 'some' people somewhere in this thread


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Geez, did I forget to say 'some' people somewhere in this thread


yes, makes a big difference, cause then it doesnt include all those who do care, in ur statement


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> yes, makes a big difference, cause then it doesnt include all those who do care, in ur statement


Well if that's all that you can pick apart from my posts, then it says a lot that you've got to carry on quoting me just to try and prove such a petty point 

Off to get my dogs out, there are far more important things in life


----------



## Waterlily

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The fox hunting issue is bizarre, it manages to evoke such strong feeling, and yet *nobody feels the same* about the control of other species like rats, crows, pigeons, rabbits, deer etc.


You cant tell what we are passionate about and I for one do feel the same about other species, each one of them I am equally passionate about.


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The fox hunting issue is bizarre, it manages to evoke such strong feeling, and yet nobody feels the same about the control of other species like rats, crows, pigeons, rabbits, deer etc. I can (and have said many times) see the point that hunting a fox on horse back with dogs is not always the best way to kill a particular fox, but why is it that it evokes such strong feeling? It's like the ridiculous hype surrounding the killing of the Exmoor Emperor, what a load of rubbish was spouted about that, the daftest thing claiming he was Britains largest mammal


Oh I think a lot of people (including myself) find deer hunting equallly abhorrent.
If animals and birds of any species must be controlled then let it be done with at least some semblance of compassion, dignity and humanity. Just as we would want our own animals to die with surely?

Many animal lovers were grieved that the "Exmoor Emperor" was killed to satisfy a persons bloodlust and ego and I would go so far as to say depravity, strong words, but if the cap fits them ... let it.

Do you also think it bizarre that many dog lovers like myself find it quite horrible that hunts shoot their hounds in middle age or as young pups/dogs?

Do you find that acceptable from a welfare point of view "sleeping-lion" if so why?


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well if that's all that you can pick apart from my posts, then it says a lot that you've got to carry on quoting me just to try and prove such a petty point
> 
> Off to get my dogs out, there are far more important things in life


well, u generelised basicly saying that i who am against fox hunting, am happy about the way chickens are being treated. Of course im goign to pick up on that.

shame u feel that thats a petty point.


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Off to get my dogs out, there are far more important things in life


Talk about evasion


----------



## Amethyst

Well if nothing else the pro hunt "fraternity" have gained the League Against Cruel Sports a couple of lapsed members :thumbup:

League Against Cruel Sports - Home

http://keepcrueltyhistory.com/


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What on earth are you talking about? Really, not even sensible enough a point to respond to.


Or because you don't know how to???

I think it is valid, very valid ...


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> How can anyone say with a straight face they care about the welfare of the hounds when they know they are killed in middle age or younger, because they are no longer suitable to support the hobby they enjoy? Of course nobody who cares about animals and their welfare is going to take their claims to care about the welfare of animals involved seriously ...
> 
> One person said they don't see them as pet's which begs the question how do they see them? Commodities to be disposed of when no longer of use?
> 
> Quite horrible and a bit frightening


Sorry for late reply, been shopping. 
Again its each persons personal experience. 
What i have experienced as a pro hunter will be completely different to someone elses experience. 
I have never been involved with a hound being killed because 'it didnt make the grade' or because it couldnt do its 'job' anymore. As i already pointed out on this thread all our hounds are rehomed by hunt supporters etc when they come to the end of their working life.


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> Sorry for late reply, been shopping.
> Again its each persons personal experience.
> What i have experienced as a pro hunter will be completely different to someone elses experience.
> I have never been involved with a hound being killed because 'it didnt make the grade' or because it couldnt do its 'job' anymore. As i already pointed out on this thread all our hounds are rehomed by hunt supporters etc when they come to the end of their working life.


All hounds? Is that what they tell you


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> All hounds? Is that what they tell you


They dont need to tell me anything, when you spent 90% of the time at the kennels you see it with your own eyes.

Infact, there is even a waiting list of people who are willing to adopt a 'retired' hound. I get sent photos of them in their new homes and many of the new owners regularly keep in contact.

When youve put so much time and effort into breeding the 'ideal' bloodlines, your not going to just 'kill them off' because their not fit for purpose anymore.


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What on earth are you talking about? Really, not even sensible enough a point to respond to.
> 
> o:


my point is valid tho! my own springer was a gun shy gundog who was going to be shot until my Dad stepped in and saved him...he was 12 months old, i did a thread on another forum about someone we know a couple of streets away, his missis told me his gundog Max had been pts because he was 'old'....ive since found out her oh shot him and that he was just 9 and perfectly healthy....so this does happen to some gundogs....and wondered if you'd be okay if you bred and it happened to one of your pups...or do your flippant views on the subject only apply to hounds?


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> When youve put so much time and effort into breeding the 'ideal' bloodlines, your not going to just 'kill them off' because their not fit for purpose anymore.


Which makes me "guess" these are the dogs that will be used in future breeding plans? You know, it's very odd, but I've never seen anyone with a "pet" Foxhound out and about, even in areas where hunting is "rife." Nice descriptive word 

I know some people do have them as house pets (show dogs), but never known it personally, even in areas I visit where one would kind of expect to see it  Odd indeed ....

Do you have on of these dogs as a pet? It would be a nice gesture for sure if you were able to offer one a home wouldn't it? Maybe one day


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> Do you have on of these dogs as a pet? It would be a nice gesture for sure if you were able to offer one a home wouldn't it? Maybe one day


No i dont, 
But this is due to the tenancy agreement on our house saying no more than 2 pets of anysort in the house.

I fully plan to rehome one of the hounds, but for now, im afraid, it isnt an option.


----------



## JJAK

And as for your "well iv never seen it...oh funny that" attitude, 
Just because you havnt seen it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> And as for your "well iv never seen it...oh funny that" attitude,
> Just because you havnt seen it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.


No... But it is kind of strange don't you think 

Where on earth are all these retired "pet" Foxhounds? I've met Trail Hounds before and know someone who has adopted via their rescue ... which is run by lovely, dedicated individuals.

But NEVER retired ex working Foxhounds, or pups for that matter :confused1:


----------



## Spellweaver

Actually, we did once have a rescued fox-hound. We got her from the RSPCA and they did not know where she came from, so she may not have been from a hunt at all. When she was taken in to the RSPCA she was emaciated, had been very badly beaten, and had been reduced to eating stones - her teeth were almost worn away and she had to have an operation to get some stones out of her stomach. She was very loving towards women, but hated men - although in the two years we had her she did come to trust my OH - and would cower if anyone raised an arm (even for something as innocuous as reaching up to get a cup out of the cupboard). Sadly, she was never completely well after the stomach op and she died after we had had her a couple of years.


----------



## Amethyst

Spellweaver said:


> Actually, we did once have a rescued fox-hound. We got her from the RSPCA and they did not know where she came from, so she may not have been from a hunt at all. When she was taken in to the RSPCA she was emaciated, had been very badly beaten, and had been reduced to eating stones - her teeth were almost worn away and she had to have an operation to get some stones out of her stomach. She was very loving towards women, but hated men - although in the two years we had her she did come to trust my OH - and would cower if anyone raised an arm (even for something as innocuous as reaching up to get a cup out of the cupboard). Sadly, she was never completely well after the stomach op and she died after we had had her a couple of years.


That is so sad, though wonderful that she knew some love and dignity with you and your family, I guess there will always be that question mark hanging over her origin ... Though I am tempted, rightly or wrongly to surmise 

What matters is she received the care all dogs should have.

I have been told that hunts are not willing to re-home their dogs? Whole new thread that though ...

But it would seem that there is a plethora of hunt supporters willing to step in and take them all on? Though considering they are never seen, it begs the question what happens after that 

It's also quite strange that nobody who is so pro-hunting here, seems to have one, though they claim to care so passionately about the dogs and their welfare ...

Indeed, there are more questions surrounding this than answers ... Can of worms comes to mind.


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> No... But it is kind of strange don't you think
> 
> Where on earth are all these retired "pet" Foxhounds? I've met Trail Hounds before and know someone who has adopted via their rescue ... which is run by lovely, dedicated individuals.
> 
> But NEVER retired ex working Foxhounds, or pups for that matter :confused1:


this links says the countryside alliance admit to the killing of some 3000 hounds per year....if thats what they admit to you can bet its just a drop in the ocean.....Hounds - Foxhounds: Victims of Foxhunters



Spellweaver said:


> Actually, we did once have a rescued fox-hound. We got her from the RSPCA and they did not know where she came from, so she may not have been from a hunt at all. When she was taken in to the RSPCA she was emaciated, had been very badly beaten, and had been reduced to eating stones - her teeth were almost worn away and she had to have an operation to get some stones out of her stomach. She was very loving towards women, but hated men - although in the two years we had her she did come to trust my OH - and would cower if anyone raised an arm (even for something as innocuous as reaching up to get a cup out of the cupboard). Sadly, she was never completely well after the stomach op and she died after we had had her a couple of years.


bless you Val, at least she died knowing love and kindness xxx


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> this links says the countryside alliance admit to the killing of some 3000 hounds per year....if thats what they admit to you can bet its just a drop in the ocean.....Hounds - Foxhounds: Victims of Foxhunters


Doesn't make for pleasant viewing or reading does it? Those poor slaughtered Foxhounds, not a lot of dignity in those photographs of their destruction is there?

So much for them going off to happy homes in front of the fire with hunt supporters? What a joke ... Sick joke at that.

For sure it isn't just foxes who are abused and slaughtered in this disgraceful display of human depravity ... And they call the fox vermin ...


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> Doesn't make for pleasant viewing or reading does it? Those poor slaughtered Foxhounds, not a lot of dignity in those photographs of their destruction is there?
> 
> So much for them going off to happy homes in front of the fire with hunt supporters? What a joke ... Sick joke at that.
> 
> For sure it isn't just foxes who are abused and slaughtered in this disgraceful display of human depravity ... And they call the fox vermin ...


its made me sick to my stomach! poor hounds theyre just as much the victims of this sick passtime as the fox is....and nope the fox most certainly is Not the vermin


----------



## Guest

According to this http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/138577-dog-attacks-increase-says-trainer-5.html

some people assume some dogs have more right to a new home than others. I'd imagine an ex-hunting dog has similar 'issues' and would take up space in a rescue from more worthy dogs 

Seriously though what are the breed rescues doing??


----------



## hawksport

Amethyst said:


> Talk about evasion


When you went to bed last night was that evasion?


----------



## Waterlily

hawksport said:


> When you went to bed last night was that evasion?


:lol: :lol:


----------



## Amethyst

Buster's Mummy said:


> According to this http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/138577-dog-attacks-increase-says-trainer-5.html
> 
> some people assume some dogs have more right to a new home than others. I'd imagine an ex-hunting dog has similar 'issues' and would take up space in a rescue from more worthy dogs
> 
> Seriously though what are the breed rescues doing??


I don't think that really has anything to do with it personally, these hunts are breeding dogs which they KNOW only have a shelf life of seven tears maximum (unless exceptional stud dogs.) They breed them knowing that fundamentally they have little real chance of finding a home once their working life is over ... but why should they worry  "Tradition" dictates that a bullet is a quick and easy answer to their problem 

You ask ~ "Seriously though what are the breed rescues doing??"

Which breed rescues? Surely the hunt who breeds the hounds should be responsible for a lifetime of welfare and back up, just as we would surely expect any other respectable and ethical (though in fairness neither are words which equate to fox hunting) dog breeder to be?


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> When you went to bed last night was that evasion?


Is there a question I missed?


----------



## hawksport

Amethyst said:


> Is there a question I missed?


Whe Sleepinglion said she needed to walk the dogs you called it evasion. I just wondered if it was evasion when you went to bed last night. Most people on here do have to do other things aswell as post on here.


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> Whe Sleepinglion said she neede to walk the dogs you called it evasion. I just wondered if it was evasion when you went to bed last night. Most people on here do have to do other things aswell as post on here.


it just seemed ... timely


----------



## hawksport

The two sides are never going to agree so whenever anyone from either side leaves it will seem timely


----------



## Waterlily

Waterlily said:


> :lol: :lol:


aww thanks amethyst for my red blob  for what :confused1: oh yeah laughing at someones post :thumbup: :lol: :lol: B*tch


----------



## Amethyst

hawksport said:


> The two sides are never going to agree so whenever anyone from either side leaves it will seem timely


Never mind, like myself, I am sure they will be back and answer the questions about the abuse and destruction of hounds. Well, maybe ... I think someone asked if they would be happy if dogs they bred died (as in killed/bullet to head) prematurely, which is indeed a valid point for anyone who is pro- blood sports


----------



## shibby

noushka05 said:


> this links says the countryside alliance admit to the killing of some 3000 hounds per year....if thats what they admit to you can bet its just a drop in the ocean.....Hounds - Foxhounds: Victims of Foxhunters


That link  Absolutely abhorrent...


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> The Row of pics on the top of the Above link on the 8th pic along as that man got a Gun to the Dogs Head?


Yes, but isn't that the end to life that all of us dog lovers would want for our dogs .... NOT


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Doesn't make for pleasant viewing or reading does it? Those poor slaughtered Foxhounds, not a lot of dignity in those photographs of their destruction is there?
> 
> So much for them going off to happy homes in front of the fire with hunt supporters? What a joke ... Sick joke at that.
> 
> For sure it isn't just foxes who are abused and slaughtered in this disgraceful display of human depravity ... And they call the fox vermin ...


So we are liars now? The three hunst that I know in our area DO NOT kill the fox hounds. That link does not prove that ALL hunts do that. Yes, the hunts that do should not be allowed to. However, as me and JJAK have stated, out hunts do not.

Their are a few hounds round here, and we often see the pups being Puppy Walked (similar thing to guide dog puppy walking)

As for you saying about us not having any hounds...what a stupid comment. I am desperate for a dog, and I do care about the hounds, however one would not suit our family. That doesn't mean we don't care about the dogs. That statement has no relevence or point.


----------



## snoopydo

Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers

Just Been reading that link that was put up.....The link above shows all the Pets that have been killed ................Did'nt someone one here say that The Little Yorkie was a one-off....YEAH RIGHT...

I've also seen the Pics of all the Hounds that are shot and pics of other Sickening images......

Can I have a reply from a pro please to explain how all this is RIGHT....I'd love to know.


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> I don't think that really has anything to do with it personally, these hunts are breeding dogs which they KNOW only have a shelf life of seven tears maximum (unless exceptional stud dogs.) They breed them knowing that fundamentally they have little real chance of finding a home once their working life is over ... but why should they worry  "Tradition" dictates that a bullet is a quick and easy answer to their problem
> 
> You ask ~ "Seriously though what are the breed rescues doing??"
> 
> Which breed rescues? Surely the hunt who breeds the hounds should be responsible for a lifetime of welfare and back up, just as we would surely expect any other respectable and ethical (though in fairness neither are words which equate to fox hunting) dog breeder to be?


excellent point! ethical dog breeders take responsibility for all the animals they produce throughout their lifetime, yet ive seen 'dog lovers' on here and elsewhere debate time and again on what makes a responsible breeder ie good breeders giving a lifetime back up for any pups they produce...yet these same people support the CA and the hunts who dont need to give a lifetimes support to their hounds as they'll never need it!..because they think its perfectly acceptable to dispose of often young and healthy animals with a bullet to the back of the head...lmao how can anyone ever take those particular 'dog lovers' seriously


----------



## MissShelley

Amethyst said:


> Never mind, like myself, I am sure they will be back and answer the questions about the abuse and destruction of hounds. Well, maybe ... I think someone asked if they would be happy if dogs they bred died (as in killed/bullet to head) prematurely, which is indeed a valid point for anyone who is pro- blood sports


Don't hold your breath. I questioned someone about what they meant by punishing the hounds when they outed the fox whilst on a drag  Still waiting for a response.


----------



## noushka05

Tapir said:


> So we are liars now? The three hunst that I know in our area DO NOT kill the fox hounds. That link does not prove that ALL hunts do that. Yes, the hunts that do should not be allowed to. However, as me and JJAK have stated, out hunts do not.
> 
> Their are a few hounds round here, and we often see the pups being Puppy Walked (similar thing to guide dog puppy walking)
> 
> As for you saying about us not having any hounds...what a stupid comment. I am desperate for a dog, and I do care about the hounds, however one would not suit our family. That doesn't mean we don't care about the dogs. That statement has no relevence or point.


im really curious to know which 3 hunts these are?


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> it just seemed ... timely


didnt it just


----------



## Amethyst

Tapir said:


> Their are a few hounds round here, and we often see the pups being Puppy Walked (similar thing to guide dog puppy walking)


Yes, as in it is preparation for the work they have been bred to do ....

People who puppy walk are not giving a lifetime home to dog, simply getting it ready to work.

Quite difference


----------



## Amethyst

MissShelley said:


> Don't hold your breath. I questioned someone about what they meant by punishing the hounds when they outed the fox whilst on a drag  Still waiting for a response.


Yes I noticed that, because I posed a similar question, and what do you know? I'm still waiting too


----------



## Spellweaver

noushka05 said:


> this links says the countryside alliance admit to the killing of some 3000 hounds per year....if thats what they admit to you can bet its just a drop in the ocean.....Hounds - Foxhounds: Victims of Foxhunters


OMG - I ask you pro-hunters again - is it any wonder we anti-hunters think you don't care about your animals when footage like this is freely available for all to see?

If this were footage from a puppy farm, you'd be up in arms about it - but because it's _hunting_, because it's _traditional_; you somehow manage to excuse it by saying either a) it's just what happens or b)you don't see it so it's not happening, not happening, hands over ears, hands over eyes, not seeing it, not happening, not in my hunt, we're only here for the social aspect so ignore all that, la la la la la ............. and that's before we even start on what happens to the fox :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

I couldn't ignore all that and call myself an animal lover.


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Yes, as in it is preparation for the work they have been bred to do ....
> 
> People who puppy walk are not giving a lifetime home to dog, simply getting it ready to work.
> 
> Quite difference


Did I say that?...just saying, thats what I see.


----------



## Inca's Mum

Evening all, hope you've had a fun day with this topic...I really wanted to share some of the pictures I got today when we went to the local meet and followed the hounds on foot through the fields. It was a lovely day out and before anyone slates me for going, we just went and it was an enjoyable day - as soon as we set off the hounds were miles away but crossed our path a few times which enabled me to get some lovely pictures.

*This one made me really sad, but I'm glad I captured this particular mood. Although I'm pro hunting, I just wanted to put all of them in the car and drive off with them and give them a big cuddle.










It was a beautiful day with some lovely trees with a bit of mist too...










Beautiful hound (both B&W image and colour)



















Up and over!








*

Also, discussing this at the yard our owner said something about how multi-cultural our society has become and all of our traditions are being lost with all of the immigrants and this is just us keeping with traditions. She said it was one of the only English traditions that is still kept in the countryside. Another thing she was talking about is the fact that so many people who are against hunting have never been to a hunt so don't know exactly what happens. *I know the majority of you won't agree with this but I just thought I would post what she told us *

But I also thought I'd say that when I was out today, I was watching for anything you all noted on here last night and was really miffed when they went through a field of sheep and one sheep got blocked from the herd while the hounds and quads went through and it was pretty freaked out :frown:


----------



## Waterlily

Amethyst said:


> Yes I noticed that, because I posed a similar question, and what do you know? I'm still waiting too


Maybe your waiting cos you red blob peeps pro *or* anti cos ya dont know the diff between it been personal to you or on a thread. Geez take a chill pill, you know behind the scenes where peeps cant see you bad repping others.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Oh I think a lot of people (including myself) find deer hunting equallly abhorrent.
> If animals and birds of any species must be controlled then let it be done with at least some semblance of compassion, dignity and humanity. Just as we would want our own animals to die with surely?
> 
> Many animal lovers were grieved that the "Exmoor Emperor" was killed to satisfy a persons bloodlust and ego and I would go so far as to say depravity, strong words, but if the cap fits them ... let it.
> 
> Do you also think it bizarre that many dog lovers like myself find it quite horrible that hunts shoot their hounds in middle age or as young pups/dogs?
> 
> Do you find that acceptable from a welfare point of view "sleeping-lion" if so why?


Stags and hinds are culled year after year to keep numbers at a viable population, the one place that doesn't happen, is in a tract of land owned by people who think that deer stalking/culling is wrong, instead, their animals die regularly from disease, injury and are not in good condition because numbers are too high, I'll see if I can dig out the name of the place. The deer that are culled are all used, I personally wouldn't want a stag's head on my wall, some do, but I do eat venison, it's deliscious meat.

I don't know of any hunt that shoots their hounds, I have heard that it happens, and I too think it's abhorrent. I also hear about awful pet owners, who beat their dogs, starve them, and I regularly help raise funds for rescue with charity auction prizes for individual cases. Doesn't mean I view that all pet owners are awful and treat their animals the same way.



Amethyst said:


> Or because you don't know how to???
> 
> I think it is valid, very valid ...


Why? I'm not questioning Natik's breeding practices?



noushka05 said:


> my point is valid tho! my own springer was a gun shy gundog who was going to be shot until my Dad stepped in and saved him...he was 12 months old, i did a thread on another forum about someone we know a couple of streets away, his missis told me his gundog Max had been pts because he was 'old'....ive since found out her oh shot him and that he was just 9 and perfectly healthy....so this does happen to some gundogs....and wondered if you'd be okay if you bred and it happened to one of your pups...or do your flippant views on the subject only apply to hounds?


I too rescued an old gundog that was handshy, I've never said all people involved with hunting/shooting treat their animals as well as others, but it seems that people do generally think that working dogs and other animals are less well treated than their pet counter parts. The guy who owned my old girl, Rhuna, was dying, and handed all his dogs over to a farmer friend, most had to be pts as they were old and in very poor health, Rhuna looked healthy enough though, so I took her on from him. Turned out she had masses of mammary tumours, and was given six weeks to live. She lived for seven months, and it was brilliant to see my two bring her out of her shell slowly, and 'teach' her to play. I have maintained Rhuna's memory with my kennel/business name, she's the 'R' in Tarimoor. My other oldie rescue was a pet, that was no longer wanted, and was handed in to be pts by her owners. She was overweight, claws overgrown, and had an infected skin tag that had been left untreated. She too was hand shy, and had guarding issues. Chloe's plight was a lot worse than Rhunas, although she lived longer, she was a much less happy dog overall. Again, doesn't mean I make sweeping generalisations about people who work their dogs, and people who have them as pets, there are good and bad in every walk of life.



Amethyst said:


> it just seemed ... timely


I generally go out every day at between 3-3:30pm at the latest, while there's enough light. I like to get my two dogs and eight others I look after, out for an exercise run three times a day, if I leave it later it'd be too dark to see and feed them all, and put them back in their kennels. Nice to be found guilty before proven innocent, sounds all too familiar


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why? I'm not questioning Natik's breeding practices?


 what was that question to do with me? And I havent bred yet, so what breeding practices ur on about?


----------



## Amethyst

Tapir said:


> Did I say that?...just saying, thats what I see.


The proverbial "rose tinted glasses" 

Seriously, nothing would please me more than to see some (genuine) pics of Fox Hounds adopted by the hunting fraternity, not in the field  But in front of the fire or sittting on the sofa :001_wub:

We seem to have a fair few pro hunters here, yet a dearth of any that have an ex hunting hound ... Curiouser and curiouser as Alice would say :yesnod:


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> We seem to have a fair few pro hunters here, yet a dearth of any that have an ex hunting hound ... Curiouser and curiouser as Alice would say :yesnod:


You are kidding me? What the hell as that got to do with anything?

I could say the same about you - you are (rightfully) upset at the hounds being killed, so why don't you rehome one?

Whether or not we have a hound or not has nothing to do with anything...


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> Evening all, hope you've had a fun day with this topic...I really wanted to share some of the pictures I got today when we went to the local meet and followed the hounds on foot through the fields. It was a lovely day out and before anyone slates me for going, we just went and it was an enjoyable day - as soon as we set off the hounds were miles away but crossed our path a few times which enabled me to get some lovely pictures.


Sorry hun. Your pictures are lovely, but when I look at them I can't help but see all those poor dogs ending up like the ones in Noushka's link.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> what was that question to do with me? And I havent bred yet, so what breeding practices ur on about?


I haven't bred yet either, so I'm not sure what breeding practices you're on about, nor what it has to do with the thread, except you seem to have this view that people who breed gundogs 'generally' don't care if they're shot if they don't make the grade


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know of any hunt that shoots their hounds, I have heard that it happens, and I too think it's abhorrent.


So abhorrent you continue to defend bloodsports ... Though of course it doesn't happen in your backyard 

These things never do though ... May I ask what happens to thehounds in your area that don't make the grade as young dogs as pups or when they can no longer keep up?


----------



## Inca's Mum

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry hun. Your pictures are lovely, but when I look at them I can't help but see all those poor dogs ending up like the ones in Noushka's link.


I know and it's making me feel really sh*te when I was out today with the hounds, we were talking with the men that brought them to the meet and asked how young they were taken out for their first time and it's around 18 months old. Just a fact for you all


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> So abhorrent you continue to defend bloodsports ... Though of course it doesn't happen in your backyard
> 
> These things never do though ... May I ask what happens to thehounds in your area that don't make the grade as young dogs as pups or when they can no longer keep up?


Show me where I've defended fox hunting.....

I am not involved with a hunt, so I can't comment you your theory hun


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't bred yet either, so I'm not sure what breeding practices you're on about, nor what it has to do with the thread, except you seem to have this view that people who breed gundogs 'generally' don't care if they're shot if they don't make the grade


i think ur a little bit confused, i havent even posted on the subject ur on about. Maybe u should take ur time to actually read posts and who actually wrote them before singling out specific members.


----------



## Amethyst

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry hun. Your pictures are lovely, but when I look at them I can't help but see all those poor dogs ending up like the ones in Noushka's link.


Me too ...

That's the thing isn't it? Some of us can see beyond the scenery and the innocent dogs to what lies beyond, the blood, the bullets and a less than happy endiing for all the animals concerned. Basically the propaganda 

Many of us could go out today and take some equally pretty pics of our dogs in the snow .... The difference being we don't use and abuse wildlife, or shoot our dogs in middle age ...


----------



## Tapir

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Show me where I've defended fox hunting.....
> 
> I am not involved with a hunt, so I can't comment you your theory hun


I am not subscribed to any hunts (I don't even have a hunting horse now!) but have ridden out with one in the past, followed one often, and know know one well through a friend.


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> The difference being we don't use and abuse wildlife, or shoot our dogs in middle age ...


and neither do we.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> many failed and 'old' gundogs suffer the same fate as the foxhounds! so if you bred a litter of working labs Sleeping_Lion and sold them to working homes, you'd be okay if they didnt make the grade and were shot before their time so long as they'd had a fulfilled say year or so would you?





Natik said:


> i think ur a little bit confused, i havent even posted on the subject ur on about. Maybe u should take ur time to actually read posts and who actually wrote them before singling out specific members.


Really? I don't think I'm the confused one. I think it appears as though you're implying I wouldn't care if any dogs I bred and sold to people who work their dogs, would be shot if they didn't make the grade, which is why you got the response you did.

Just read it back and realised it's Noushka, (edited to make it a HUGE) apols Natik, I honestly thought it was you, the perils of posting and dashing before dog walking 

Edited to add, Noushka, I don't know of any one person who works gundogs that would ever shoot them. I do know of those who end up rehomed, and I'm sure there are people who don't treat their gundogs well, but I find the sweeping generalisations about them unfair. I know a lot of people with old gundogs that, when retired, they get to lie in the kitchen in front of the Aga, whilst the younger dogs stay out in kennels and carry on the working life. It annoys me immensely when people have this view about those who work their dogs, in the same way as it would, I'm sure, annoy pet owners if they were generalised as poor/cruel owners.


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Really? I don't think I'm the confused one. I think it appears as though you're implying I wouldn't care if any dogs I bred and sold to people who work their dogs, would be shot if they didn't make the grade, which is why you got the response you did.


 are u for real? do u not see that noushka wrote the post????? and not me! So how am i implying something by not having posted anything????


----------



## Amethyst

Worth a look, give you some hope for the future 

http://www.youtube.com/user/LACS1924


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> Me too ...
> 
> That's the thing isn't it? Some of us can see beyond the scenery and the innocent dogs to what lies beyond, the blood, the bullets and a less than happy endiing for all the animals concerned. Basically the propaganda
> 
> Many of us could go out today and take some equally pretty pics of our dogs in the snow .... The difference being we don't use and abuse wildlife, or shoot our dogs in middle age ...


I'd just like to note that why do you think the shooting of dogs occurs within every single hunt because it doesn't. Media portrays only the bad things.


----------



## Natik

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just read it back and realised it's Noushka, apols Natik, I honestly thought it was you, the perils of posting and dashing before dog walking


it happens


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Amethyst said:


> Me too ...
> 
> That's the thing isn't it? Some of us can see beyond the scenery and the innocent dogs to what lies beyond, the blood, the bullets and a less than happy endiing for all the animals concerned. Basically the propaganda
> 
> Many of us could go out today and take some equally pretty pics of our dogs in the snow .... The difference being we don't use and abuse wildlife, or shoot our dogs in middle age ...





Inca's Mum said:


> I know and it's making me feel really sh*te when I was out today with the hounds, we were talking with the men that brought them to the meet and asked how young they were taken out for their first time and it's around 18 months old. Just a fact for you all





Spellweaver said:


> Sorry hun. Your pictures are lovely, but when I look at them I can't help but see all those poor dogs ending up like the ones in Noushka's link.


same here, thats what i thought to . but then again i dont feel as though my views count as everytime i post i get ignored anyway


----------



## hawksport

I'm off to sort some badgers out. Play nicely


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> I'd just like to note that why do you think the shooting of dogs occurs within every single hunt because it doesn't. Media portrays only the bad things.


How about telling us about some of the people you personally know who have adopted Fox Hounds then  Maybe you have one yourself?

Genuinely it puzzles me how even in areas where I have said hunting is "rife" I never see them walked as pets  Where are on earth are all these retired dogs and pups 

I think they must disappear in a puff of "smoke"  .....


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Natik said:


> are u for real? do u not see that noushka wrote the post????? and not me! So how am i implying something by not having posted anything????


Thanks, I'm the first to own up to a mistake, and am chuckling away at myself, and how daft I feel


----------



## Tapir

Tapir said:


> You are kidding me? What the hell as that got to do with anything?
> 
> I could say the same about you - you are (rightfully) upset at the hounds being killed, so why don't you rehome one?
> 
> Whether or not we have a hound or not has nothing to do with anything...


I'll repost this as it was ignored :thumbup:


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Genuinely it puzzles me how even in areas where I have said hunting is "rife" I never see them walked as pets  Where are on earth are all these retired dogs and pups
> 
> I think they must disappear in a puff of "smoke"  .....


Hey, your right, just becaue YOU haven't seen it...it doesn't happen!

:lol:


----------



## Inca's Mum

Amethyst said:


> How about telling us about some of the people you personally know who have adopted Fox Hounds then  Maybe you have one yourself?
> 
> Genuinely it puzzles me how even in areas where I have said hunting is "rife" I never see them walked as pets  Where are on earth are all these retired dogs and pups


I don't need to know anyone who have adopted Foxhounds to know that not all hunts dispose of their dogs that way. To note, a lot of pups from our local hunts are fostered for their first year in homes and then the masters get them back to train. They are difficult dogs to rehome after they've been used in hunts, so can partly explain for the fact you don't see many out walking on the roads 

That's like because saying some schools have a teacher willing to break the law means EVERY school has one...


----------



## Amethyst

Tapir said:


> Hey, your right, just becaue YOU haven't seen it...it doesn't happen!
> 
> :lol:


I'd love to hear of personal experience and see some pics of Fox Hounds on sofas and by the fire ... But doubt unfortunately I'll see many


----------



## snoopydo

snoopydo said:


> Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers
> 
> Just Been reading that link that was put up.....The link above shows all the Pets that have been killed ................Did'nt someone one here say that The Little Yorkie was a one-off....YEAH RIGHT...
> 
> I've also seen the Pics of all the Hounds that are shot and pics of other Sickening images......
> 
> Can I have a reply from a pro please to explain how all this is RIGHT....I'd love to know.


IS ANYONE GOING TO ANSWER THIS?????

*********************************

Inca's mum...........went through a field of sheep and one sheep got blocked from the herd while the hounds and quads went through and it was pretty freaked out 
__________________

REALLY  I Wonder why it was freaked out


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> I'd love to hear of personal experience and see some pics of Fox Hounds on sofas and by the fire ... But doubt unfortunately I'll see many


And you won't get any personal experience of fox hounds being shot, as we have stated, that doesn't happen in the hunts we know.

I will ask again - why dont you have a foxhound?


----------



## Amethyst

Inca's Mum said:


> I don't need to know anyone who have adopted Foxhounds to know that not all hunts dispose of their dogs that way. To note, a lot of pups from our local hunts are fostered for their first year in homes and then the masters get them back to train.


Whoopy doo ...

How horrible though to get adog used to a home life only to send it to a hunt kennel *shudder* What kind of aperson does that ..

It's hardly altruistic of the puppy walker is it, be honest


----------



## Spellweaver

Amethyst said:


> Many of us could go out today and take some equally pretty pics of our dogs in the snow .... The difference being we don't use and abuse wildlife, or shoot our dogs in middle age ...





Tapir said:


> and neither do we.


Maybe not in your personal hunting experience - but there is too much actual pictoral evidence and film footage for you to pretend that it does not widely exist. By supporting hunting, by trying to make out it's a good, jolly old thing to do, by decrying those who are spreading the message of the horrors, by sweeping all the horrors under the carpet, you are, in fact, supporting the cruelty to both fox and hounds even if your face isn't the one smeared with the blood of the ripped apart fox, even if your hand is not the one that puts the gun to the head of a healthy animal and pulls the trigger.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

So what now it's the immigrants faults that people go fox hunting :lol:. As for this tradition nonsense, have you not noticed that half the world hate the British traditions? That's because the majority of them should be left firmly in the past! You want to indulge yourself, pick up a history book. What marks a great country in my eyes is learning from their mistakes - fox hunting is most definately a mistake. Just because something is an old tradition doesn't make itr right .


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> Hey, your right, just becaue YOU haven't seen it...it doesn't happen!
> 
> :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

How very ironic - this is the VERY SAME excuse you pro-hunters use about foxes being ripped apart and hounds being killed - you don't see it happen .......... so it doesn't happen!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I bet you'll ignore this post too as you've ignored the sevrral I've posted to you on this thread


----------



## Amethyst

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Just because something is an old tradition doesn't make itr right .


Yeah, we used to have the "oddbods" turn up for public hangings at one time :scared: :lol:


----------



## Tapir

Spellweaver said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> How very ironic - this is the VERY SAME excuse you pro-hunters use about foxes being ripped apart and hounds being killed - you don't see it happen .......... so it doesn't happen!
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I bet you'll ignore this post too as you've ignored the sevrral I've posted to you on this thread


I have never said that it doesn't happen.
foxes do get ripped apart. dogs do get killed. Personally I have never seen or known of the hunts i know killing hounds. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere and i've never said otherwise


----------



## FREE SPIRIT

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> So what now it's the immigrants faults that people go fox hunting :lol:. As for this tradition nonsense, have you not noticed that half the world hate the British traditions? That's because the majority of them should be left firmly in the past! You want to indulge yourself, pick up a history book. What marks a great country in my eyes is learning from their mistakes - fox hunting is most definately a mistake. Just because something is an old tradition doesn't make itr right .


*Exactly.....In the words of Ghandi: "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. "
*


----------



## Spellweaver

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> So what now it's the immigrants faults that people go fox hunting :lol:. As for this tradition nonsense, have you not noticed that half the world hate the British traditions? That's because the majority of them should be left firmly in the past! You want to indulge yourself, pick up a history book. What marks a great country in my eyes is learning from their mistakes - fox hunting is most definately a mistake. Just because something is an old tradition doesn't make itr right .


On the link that Noushka posted, guess who some of the most ardent supporters of fox-hunting are? The BNP.

Says it all really.


----------



## Tapir

Tapir said:


> I could say the same about you - you are (rightfully) upset at the hounds being killed, so why don't you rehome one?
> 
> Whether or not we have a hound or not has nothing to do with anything...


Just bumping


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Whoopy doo ...
> 
> How horrible though to get adog used to a home life only to send it to a hunt kennel *shudder* What kind of aperson does that ..
> 
> It's hardly altruistic of the puppy walker is it, be honest


I'm sorry, but that really shows your ignorance. My dogs are kennelled, although they started out life as house dogs, and I help look after eight working dogs, two are pups that are being run on to see how they turn out. All are well looked after, given good exercise and stimulation, probably more so than many pets. My old rescue dog, Chloe, was such a pet dog, who'd lived in a house all her life, and been severely mistreated. Nice to see the sweeping generalisations are still alive and kicking.

Didn't answer my comment earlier btw, or do you think I'm making it up when I say I have to go and walk the dogs 

PS I may have to go and make tea soon, I really do eat, honest.


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> I have never said that it doesn't happen.
> foxes do get ripped apart. dogs do get killed. Personally I have never seen or known of the hunts i know killing hounds. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere and i've never said otherwise


Given that you now have admitted it happens, how can you still support hunting? If you KNOW it happens, how can you even WANT to be a part of it? Just because you haven't seen it happen yet in the hunt to which you belong, doesn't mean it's never going to happen. It can only be a matter of time before you do witness it.


----------



## noushka05

firstly im really sorry you red blobbed Waterlily Amethyst... WL is luverly and passionate about animal welfare just like we are

hehe @ Natik 



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't bred yet either, so I'm not sure what breeding practices you're on about, nor what it has to do with the thread, except you seem to have this view that people who breed gundogs 'generally' don't care if they're shot if they don't make the grade


 i also know plenty of hunters who would never dream of shooting their unwanted gundogs but you must know it does happen but thats beside the point, my point was 'if' you bred a litter would you be fine it going to the sort of hunter who would shoot it if it didnt make the grade? because the quote below is how you feel about foxhounds living shortened lives....

*

Foxhounds are not pets, they are working animals, and they're not the only working animal by far not to live to the full possible extent of their life. Doesn't mean that they are uncared for, and treated inhumanely, in fact by far the opposite, they are living a very natural life and obviously gain enjoyment from that.
__________________
*



smudge2009 said:


> same here, thats what i thought to . but then again i dont feel as though my views count as everytime i post i get ignored anyway


course your views count



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Edited to add, Noushka, I don't know of any one person who works gundogs that would ever shoot them. I do know of those who end up rehomed, and I'm sure there are people who don't treat their gundogs well, but I find the sweeping generalisations about them unfair. I know a lot of people with old gundogs that, when retired, they get to lie in the kitchen in front of the Aga, whilst the younger dogs stay out in kennels and carry on the working life. It annoys me immensely when people have this view about those who work their dogs, in the same way as it would, I'm sure, annoy pet owners if they were generalised as poor/cruel owners.


im sure this is correct in many cases but sadly i do know of some who see their gundogs as no more than a 'tool'....and it was very nice of you to give a home to the old girl


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Some interesting quotes.....

"After 13 years of discussing and debating this issue I found it impossible to ignore the truth and facts about hunting. I have come to despise the League Against Cruel Sports, even though I was its Chairman and Chief Executive, simply because these people know as well as I do that the abolition of hunting will not make any difference to the welfare of foxes, hares or deer."
Richard Course
Former Chairman and Executive Director of the League Against Cruel Sports for thirteen years. Commenting in April 1998.

"Hunting is part of the country life and destroying it will put a lot of people out of work and be worse for the animals. They will have to be shot instead - and that means many will be wounded. We kill them outright."
Liz White
Ex saboteur and former member of the League Against Cruel Sports who now hunts. 17 March 2003.

"Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel... The short answer to that question is no. There was not sufficient verifiable evidence or data safely to reach views about cruelty."
Lord Burns
Chairman of the Inquiry into hunting with dogs.
House of Lords, 12 March 2001.

Again, I reiterate, I am firmly on the fence with fox hunting, just wanted to post a few different views to balance the debate.


----------



## Amethyst

Just pondering how wonderful it would be if all pro blood sport people decided to channel their "love and respect" in the direction of the animals in their local rescue or animal welfare organisation. 

Who knows? Maybe when hunting (in any guise is banned) and it is only a matter of when not if, they will do so ... and at last appreciate what it means to altruistically and genuinely know compassion towards all animals  

I shall give them the benefit of the doubt and look forward to that day


----------



## Tapir

Spellweaver said:


> Maybe not in your personal hunting experience - but there is too much actual pictoral evidence and film footage for you to pretend that it does not widely exist. By supporting hunting, by trying to make out it's a good, jolly old thing to do, by decrying those who are spreading the message of the horrors, by sweeping all the horrors under the carpet, you are, in fact, supporting the cruelty to both fox and hounds even if your face isn't the one smeared with the blood of the ripped apart fox, even if your hand is not the one that puts the gun to the head of a healthy animal and pulls the trigger.


I will make it clear now.

(Maybe I haven't previously made it that clear and I apologise for that)

PERSONALLY.
I class myself as Pro-Hunting.
However, I can fully accept the antis opinions, and do see both sides of the argument.
I have not hunted on horseback before. I have followed hunts by car/on foot and my close friend is a hunter and we discuss it a lot.
I support the hunts who treat their hounds well.

I think if fox hunting did ever return - there would need to be stricter rules with regards to SOME hunts care of their hounds. (I don't know any, but as links prove, it does go on)
Also needs fairer grounds ie no blocking of exits for foxes, once the fox has escpaed, it's escaped, not trapped etc.

I do not condone the breaking of the law (which I accept some hunts do - not the ones I know.)
However, I do also know that GENUINE accidents happen.

They are my views and I would appriciate it if you allowed me to have my own opinions.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Tapir said:


> Just bumping


I don't adopt dogs, I will in the future but not right now - we don't have the space. If I was going to rescue any dogs it would be from a cat and dog home or a breed rescue. If I rescued a fox hunting hound I would feel as though I was just making more room for more hounds to eventually have to be rescued or killed. I'd rather just do everything in my power to put a stop to the whole fox hunting nonsense . Plus why should other people pick up the pieces for people like you? Your the one who is pro hunting, your the one who keeps this sadistic 'tradition' going, so you pick up the pieces at the end of the day! But hey 3000 hounds is a bit much to take home isn't it . If you gave a damn about the dogs then you would be the first person wanting a half put to this nonsense. You can't deny the known figures and if a hobby (because thats what it is at the end of the day!) that I advocated and took part in was claiming 3000 lifes a year then you can bet i'd be a swapping sides.


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Some interesting quotes.....
> 
> "After 13 years of discussing and debating this issue I found it impossible to ignore the truth and facts about hunting. I have come to despise the League Against Cruel Sports, even though I was its Chairman and Chief Executive, simply because these people know as well as I do that the abolition of hunting will not make any difference to the welfare of foxes, hares or deer."
> Richard Course
> Former Chairman and Executive Director of the League Against Cruel Sports for thirteen years. Commenting in April 1998.
> 
> "Hunting is part of the country life and destroying it will put a lot of people out of work and be worse for the animals. They will have to be shot instead - and that means many will be wounded. We kill them outright."
> Liz White
> Ex saboteur and former member of the League Against Cruel Sports who now hunts. 17 March 2003.
> 
> "Naturally, people ask whether we were implying that hunting is cruel... The short answer to that question is no. There was not sufficient verifiable evidence or data safely to reach views about cruelty."
> Lord Burns
> Chairman of the Inquiry into hunting with dogs.
> House of Lords, 12 March 2001.
> 
> Again, I reiterate, I am firmly on the fence with fox hunting, just wanted to post a few different views to balance the debate.


yes i can tell!:lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> i also know plenty of hunters who would never dream of shooting their unwanted gundogs but you must know it does happen but thats beside the point, my point was 'if' you bred a litter would you be fine it going to the sort of hunter who would shoot it if it didnt make the grade? because the quote below is how you feel about foxhounds living shortened lives....
> 
> im sure this is correct in many cases but sadly i do know of some who see their gundogs as no more than a 'tool'....and it was very nice of you to give a home to the old girl


Taking your first part, most definitely not, part of my unused contract stipulates that any one who finds they need to rehome a dog, or even sell it on, must come back to me first. I would rather buy a dog back, or help find a new home where I can stay in touch.

It's not just correct in many cases it's correct of everyone I know in the gundog world. I do know people that run on and sell older dogs, but, as has been said, they aren't pets. It's up to individual breeders to police how they keep in touch. Sadly I too have heard of people in the gundog world that I wouldn't trust with my dogs (fortunately I don't know them), but can you name one area of dog ownership that is free of this sort of person? I can't think of one.


----------



## noushka05

Tapir said:


> And you won't get any personal experience of fox hounds being shot, as we have stated, that doesn't happen in the hunts we know.
> 
> I will ask again - why dont you have a foxhound?


i'll ask you again then...which are the 3 hunts that you know that dont kill their hounds?


----------



## bellathemog

Spellweaver said:


> On the link that Noushka posted, guess who some of the most ardent supporters of fox-hunting are? The BNP.
> 
> Says it all really.


What as the BNP got to do with it


----------



## Amethyst

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I don't adopt dogs, I will in the future but not right now - we don't have the space. If I was going to rescue any dogs it would be from a cat and dog home or a breed rescue. If I rescued a fox hunting hound I would feel as though I was just making more room for more hounds to eventually have to be rescued or killed. I'd rather just do everything in my power to put a stop to the whole fox hunting nonsense . Plus why should other people pick up the pieces for people like you? Your the one who is pro hunting, your the one who keeps this sadistic 'tradition' going, so you pick up the pieces at the end of the day! But hey 3000 hounds is a bit much to take home isn't it . If you gave a damn about the dogs then you would be the first person wanting a half put to this nonsense. You can't deny the known figures and if a hobby (because thats what it is at the end of the day!) that I advocated and took part in was claiming 3000 lifes a year then you can bet i'd be a swapping sides.


Thanks Fuzzbugs you answered the post brillaintly, to be honest I couldn't be bothered ... yeah, makes you wonder how many they would like to foist off onto us to ensure their hobby had fresh blood ...

Yes, taking a hound in from hunt kennels would be know different from buying from puppy farm scum


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> yes i can tell!:lol:


Why? I'm intrigued, why do you think I'm pro hunting? I think the way hounds work is poetry in motion, I don't like the idea of a fox being killed by them, but then I don't like the idea of any animal dying. Doesn't mean I'm pro fox hunting, nor does it mean I'm anti, just that I favour a balanced debate.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I don't adopt dogs, I will in the future but not right now - we don't have the space. If I was going to rescue any dogs it would be from a cat and dog home or a breed rescue. If I rescued a fox hunting hound I would feel as though I was just making more room for more hounds to eventually have to be rescued or killed. I'd rather just do everything in my power to put a stop to the whole fox hunting nonsense . Plus why should other people pick up the pieces for people like you? Your the one who is pro hunting, your the one who keeps this sadistic 'tradition' going, so you pick up the pieces at the end of the day! But hey 3000 hounds is a bit much to take home isn't it . If you gave a damn about the dogs then you would be the first person wanting a half put to this nonsense. You can't deny the known figures and if a hobby (because thats what it is at the end of the day!) that I advocated and took part in was claiming 3000 lifes a year then you can bet i'd be a swapping sides.


I really don't see your logic with this, I'm all for rehoming rescue dogs, but it also leaves a vacuum for byb's and puppy farmers.  I'm not saying don't rehome, but you can't accuse one group of something without applying the same ethics to all rescue organisations.


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Thanks Fuzzbugs you answered the post brillaintly, to be honest I couldn't be bothered ... yeah, makes you wonder how many they would like to foist off onto us to ensure their hobby had fresh blood ...
> 
> Yes, taking a hound in from hunt kennels would be know different from buying from puppy farm scum


If you can't be bothered to answer my questions, why should I be bothered to answer yours?

It's ridiculous that you think it's odd that pros don't have pet hounds... 

You care about animals, and if we are using your logic, then you would rehome one.

I just think it's insane how it only works one way.


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Taking your first part, most definitely not, part of my unused contract stipulates that any one who finds they need to rehome a dog, or even sell it on, must come back to me first. I would rather buy a dog back, or help find a new home where I can stay in touch.
> 
> It's not just correct in many cases it's correct of everyone I know in the gundog world. I do know people that run on and sell older dogs, but, as has been said, they aren't pets. It's up to individual breeders to police how they keep in touch. Sadly I too have heard of people in the gundog world that I wouldn't trust with my dogs (fortunately I don't know them), but can you name one area of dog ownership that is free of this sort of person? I can't think of one.


i didnt think you would because you'd love those puppies but that seems so hypocritical to me that you seem so indifferent to the fate of those hounds yet you wouldnt want that for your puppies.


----------



## Guest

Excuse me!
but have we broke any records yet?
100 pages so far


----------



## Amethyst

Tapir said:


> You care about animals, and if we are using your logic, then you would rehome one.


Have explained why I won't fuel the exploitation of hounds in previous post, not going to ultimately condone and encourage the killings ...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> i didnt think you would because you'd love those puppies but that seems so hypocritical to me that you seem so indifferent to the fate of those hounds yet you wouldnt want that for your puppies.


I think if you read back, I said I found any mistreatment of foxhounds abhorrent, along with everyone else on the thread, so I'm not sure why you're trying to make a comparison


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> Excuse me!
> but have we broke any records yet?
> 100 pages so far


aw yeah but anyway want some :arf:


----------



## Spellweaver

bellathemog said:


> What as the BNP got to do with it


Inca'smum said that a woman from her hunt made a racist comment about immigration destroying British traditions and that hunting was the only countryside tradition left (codswallop, but there you go). Fizzbugs then posted to say what nonsense it was.

In a link posted by Noushka, it says that the BNP support fox hunting as a fine british tradition. The BNP are well known racists. So, it would seem from IncasMum's post that hunt sipporters and the BNP have a lot in common. (And even more when you think about the propensity for violence from both pro-hunters and the BNP)

Hope that explains it.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I really don't see your logic with this, I'm all for rehoming rescue dogs, but it also leaves a vacuum for byb's and puppy farmers.  I'm not saying don't rehome, but you can't accuse one group of something without applying the same ethics to all rescue organisations.


Sorry, i'll try to make myself a bit clearer. Fox hunting is a hobby. These hounds are used and then either fobbed off to rescue or shot for someones hobby. Puppy farms and BYB breeders use the publics ignorance and lack of knowledge to their advantage. Education is the key to preventing this, so yes I would happily take on a puppy farm dog from a rescue. I would probably take on an ex hunting hound too because i'm a softie and a dog is a dog in my eyes and i would hate to think what would happen to it if I didn't. I would just severly grudge taking on a dog that had been abandoned because it couldn't live up to someone idea of fun compared to being abandoned for someones sheer stupidity.


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why? I'm intrigued, why do you think I'm pro hunting? I think the way hounds work is poetry in motion, I don't like the idea of a fox being killed by them, but then I don't like the idea of any animal dying. Doesn't mean I'm pro fox hunting, nor does it mean I'm anti, just that I favour a balanced debate.


Why...you are aving a laff arnt you??? errrm well lets see maybe its because you seem a pretty passionate pro hunter to me in every single hunting related thread ive been on lately....sorry if i got you wrong mind:eek6:....*i really hope i have* lol


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> Why...you are aving a laff arnt you??? errrm well lets see maybe its because you seem a pretty passionate pro hunter to me in every single hunting related thread ive been on lately....sorry if i got you wrong mind:eek6:....*i really hope i have* lol


Strangely enough the impression I got too, though here they seem to be "backpedalling" as they say :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Sorry, i'll try to make myself a bit clearer. Fox hunting is a hobby. These hounds are used and then either fobbed off to rescue or shot for someones hobby. Puppy farms and BYB breeders use the publics ignorance and lack of knowledge to their advantage. Education is the key to preventing this, so yes I would happily take on a puppy farm dog from a rescue. I would probably take on an ex hunting hound too because i'm a softie and a dog is a dog in my eyes and i would hate to think what would happen to it if I didn't. I would just severly grudge taking on a dog that had been abandoned because it couldn't live up to someone idea of fun compared to being abandoned for someones sheer stupidity.


And how is that different to someone getting a puppy because they're cute, and then getting bored of it because they haven't trained it, and fobbing it off on rescue; or getting a staffy cross, because they want to look 'ard, and then fobbing it off on rescue when they can't be bothered with it any more.

PS hunting is more than a hobby, it's a business, and generates a huge amount for the economy, as does pet ownership.



noushka05 said:


> Why...you are aving a laff arnt you??? errrm well lets see maybe its because you seem a pretty passionate pro hunter to me in every single hunting related thread ive been on lately....sorry if i got you wrong mind:eek6:....*i really hope i have* lol


Yes, you really have got me wrong, just because I don't blindly follow the anti's and all their postings (not on here, but other websites) doesn't mean I think all fox hunting or hunting in general is right.


----------



## Tapir

Spellweaver said:


> (And even more when you think about the propensity for violence from both pro-hunters and the BNP)


I don't think you can miss out the sabs when referring to violence


----------



## bellathemog

Spellweaver said:


> Inca'smum said that a woman from her hunt made a racist comment about immigration destroying British traditions and that hunting was the only countryside tradition left (codswallop, but there you go). Fizzbugs then posted to say what nonsense it was.
> 
> In a link posted by Noushka, it says that the BNP support fox hunting as a fine british tradition. The BNP are well known racists. So, it would seem from IncasMum's post that hunt sipporters and the BNP have a lot in common. (And even more when you think about the propensity for violence from both pro-hunters and the BNP)
> 
> Hope that explains it.


So reading that ( and I could be wrong ) your saying all BNP members are "for" hunting?


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And how is that different to someone getting a puppy because they're cute, and then getting bored of it because they haven't trained it, and fobbing it off on rescue; or getting a staffy cross, because they want to look 'ard, and then fobbing it off on rescue when they can't be bothered with it any more.


Mmmmmm.... Because hunts churn puppies out year after year providing an ongoing source of puppies/youngsters/adults that are surplus to requirements?

Add to the fact that they'll put a bullet in to the dogs head if need be.

(Still no sign or pics of any re-homed Fox Hounds in homes .... )


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Mmmmmm.... Because hunts churn puppies out year after year providing an ongoing source of puppies/youngsters/adults that are surplus to requirements?
> 
> Add to the fact that they'll put a bullet in to the dogs head if need be.
> 
> (Still no sign or pics of any re-homed Fox Hounds in homes .... )


And pet owners don't ever mistreat their animals of course, none of them ever die an ignonamous death, nor suffer abuse at the hands of those who supposedly love them 

I feel the sweeping generalisation brush out again, by the way, I'm about to go and start to cook my tea, apologies if it appears 'convenient'


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> Mmmmmm.... Because hunts churn puppies out year after year providing an ongoing source of puppies/youngsters/adults that are surplus to requirements?
> 
> Add to the fact that they'll put a bullet in to the dogs head if need be.
> 
> (Still no sign or pics of any re-homed Fox Hounds in homes .... )


That's no differant to BYB breeders though, who ultimately 'supply' rescues?
(Not saying that's right by the way!)


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And pet owners don't ever mistreat their animals of course, none of them ever die an ignonamous death, nor suffer abuse at the hands of those who supposedly love them
> 
> I feel the sweeping generalisation brush out again, by the way, I'm about to go and start to cook my tea, apologies if it appears 'convenient'


Few have litter after litter with the simple intention of using them to kill local wildlife or take them out into the woods to shoot them as puppies or when middle ages ...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Mmmmmm.... Because hunts churn puppies out year after year providing an ongoing source of puppies/youngsters/adults that are surplus to requirements?
> 
> Add to the fact that they'll put a bullet in to the dogs head if need be.
> 
> (Still no sign or pics of any re-homed Fox Hounds in homes .... )


I'd also like to point out (before I go and cook my tea) they don't simply 'churn' pups out, they breed using specifically planned matings to produce the type of foxhound they require. A bit different to puppy farmers and byb's, and yet post a thread about ex breeding bitches and I don't think anyone would object to rehoming one of those. Their alternative ending isn't particularly a happy one, not that their entire life has been happy, yet again, a difference between many foxhounds, who do lead good lives.


----------



## Amethyst

Tapir said:


> That's no differant to BYB breeders though, who ultimately 'supply' rescues?
> (Not saying that's right by the way!)


And most people, seemingly yourself included, would not hold either in any regard. Both are deplorable and that is being polite


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Few have litter after litter with the simple intention of using them to kill local wildlife or take them out into the woods to shoot them as puppies or when middle ages ...


What? I think you have some poor information about the breeding of foxhounds


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'd also like to point out (before I go and cook my tea) they don't simply


Go and put the kettle on for goodness make and make yourself something nice to eat :lol:

You'll make yourself quite ill at this rate, I do hope you don't have high blood presure :scared:


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> And most people, seemingly yourself included, would not hold either in any regard. Both are deplorable and that is being polite


 I don't understand what that means sorry.


----------



## Guest

Just reading page after page....


Seeing those poor pictures of that dog 

I do know that a fair amount of farmers do shoot working farm dogs (I know a few that dont but I know more that do) once they are no longer a use to them. I used to work on a farm and went with the farmer to the farm auctions and often went to other farms for supplies and it was very common for the farmers to be taking a dog "out back to be delt with". 

One farmer said to be it was natural selection, once the dog is too old to do its job or to ill it must be killed like it would in the wild...though I guess in the wild they dont use guns.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Spellweaver said:


> I don't think you can ever _accept_ anyone's opinion if it goes against something you fundamentally disagree with - such as, in the case of fox-hunting, horrendous cruelty towards animals. However, you can _respect _someone's right to hold a different opinion to yours - and I have to say, that on this thread, by and large people have done that. People who feel strongly about something and are trying to persuade others to change their opinions is what healthy debate is all about. And except for the odd bit of silliness, this thread has been just that - a healthy debate. If you want a fluffy, nice, we all agree with each other "debate" you should have posted something like "I like porridge for breakfast - do you?"
> 
> Putting aside for one moment the fact that hunting/shooting is a completely different kettle of fish to the cruelty of fox-hunting, if you cannot understand that people who abhor cruelty to animals will never accept that "respecting" your quarry makes it ok to visit all sorts of cruelty upon them, then you can't see their point of view and your view will always be biased. Which is, on reflection, equally as sad.


Good post - I have seen the damage dogs have done to foxes brought into the wildlife hospital, not out on hunts but just dogs who are walked of an evening and have caught a fox, then the owners have brought it into the hospital. some have had to be put to sleep - from long term injuries, some have been treated and released. But my point is the pain and fear that fox has felt is barbaric, its not and instant death.


----------



## Spellweaver

bellathemog said:


> So reading that ( and I could be wrong ) your saying all BNP members are "for" hunting?


No, I was saying that according to the link, the _BNP Party_ are for fox hunting (have a look at the link yourself hun!)


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I didn't even need to move my fingers, good point!
> 
> How many people know of others who have pets that aren't well kept, children allowed to keep hamsters and fish, and, of course, they all live a full and happy life 100% of the time.
> 
> Foxhounds are not pets, they are working animals, and they're not the only working animal by far not to live to the full possible extent of their life. Doesn't mean that they are uncared for, and treated inhumanely, in fact by far the opposite, they are living a very natural life and obviously gain enjoyment from that.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, but a fact, one dog is put to sleep every hour in this country because it's unwanted. How many more suffer behind closed doors, unwanted, unwalked, poorly fed, etc, etc? Far more pets suffer on the whole, than foxhounds and foxes, and yet would people be willing to give up pet ownership to stop this?





Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think if you read back, I said I found any mistreatment of foxhounds abhorrent, along with everyone else on the thread, so I'm not sure why you're trying to make a comparison


your 1st two posts above led me to that conclusion you seemed to be trying to justify their treatment somehow, again by using other examples of animal cruelty:confused1:... saying that you do seem to have had a change of heart in these later posts:thumbup:



Amethyst said:


> Strangely enough the impression I got too, though here they seem to be "backpedalling" as they say :lol:


SL hides her 'true' opinions very well thats for sure


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> SL hides her 'true' opinions very well thats for sure


But which are the true ones 

I love that saying and so very apt here (this thread) 

"You'll never be trusted, not once it's been found, you run with hare and you hunt with the hounds ..."


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And how is that different to someone getting a puppy because they're cute, and then getting bored of it because they haven't trained it, and fobbing it off on rescue; or getting a staffy cross, because they want to look 'ard, and then fobbing it off on rescue when they can't be bothered with it any more.
> 
> PS hunting is more than a hobby, it's a business, and generates a huge amount for the economy, as does pet ownership.


Fox hunting generates a huge amount for the economy? I'd be interested to hear more about that . You just said it for me! The country is full of dogs in rescues already without these people who are supposed to know better adding to it! Apparently the hounds are extremely well trained ect so where which indicates good dog ownership on some level - aka they should know better! They shouldn't be on the same level as the muppets of our society when it comes to dog welfare. Sadly however they are . Much worse imo considering the people who buy a cute fluffy puppy then give it away don't shoot it if they don't find a home for it .


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> your 1st two posts above led me to that conclusion you seemed to be trying to justify their treatment somehow, again by using other examples of animal cruelty:confused1:... saying that you do seem to have had a change of heart in these later posts:thumbup:
> 
> SL hides her 'true' opinions very well thats for sure


And where does it say I'm pro fox hunting exactly? I'm not trying to justify any mistreatment of animals, just point out that it happens in all walks of life, some seem keener to turn a blind eye in different situations though.

(PS in the kitchen on the desktop while I'm cooking tea, and no, I don't suffer from a high blood pressure)


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> (PS in the kitchen on the desktop while I'm cooking tea, and no, I don't suffer from a high blood pressure)


That's dedication for you :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Fox hunting generates a huge amount for the economy? I'd be interested to hear more about that . You just said it for me! The country is full of dogs in rescues already without these people who are supposed to know better adding to it! Apparently the hounds are extremely well trained ect so where which indicates good dog ownership on some level - aka they should know better! They shouldn't be on the same level as the muppets of our society when it comes to dog welfare. Sadly however they are . Much worse imo considering the people who buy a cute fluffy puppy then give it away don't shoot it if they don't find a home for it .


Total hunt income is £14.9million per annum. This derives 57% from member and subscriber
charges, 30% from hunt fund raising and 13% from other sources.
Hunt revenue expenditure is £14.07 million per annum. 40% of expenditure is direct
employment. Annual capital expenditure averages £2.9million in total.
Fallen stock; 200 hunts collect 366,000 head of fallen stock per annum. This is an average of
1,830 head per hunt. 80% of hunts estimate that demand for this service from farmers is
growing by up to 50% per annum
These 200 hunts spend a total of £3.37million annually on collecting this stock. This is an
average of £18,000 per hunt and £9.20 per animal collected.


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> But which are the true ones
> 
> I love that saying and so very apt here (this thread)
> 
> "You'll never be trusted, not once it's been found, you run with hare and you hunt with the hounds ..."


i also love that saying because its very true...and no it couldnt be more apt for this thread could it lol


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Total hunt income is £14.9million per annum. This derives 57% from member and subscriber
> charges, 30% from hunt fund raising and 13% from other sources.
> Hunt revenue expenditure is £14.07 million per annum. 40% of expenditure is direct
> employment. Annual capital expenditure averages £2.9million in total.
> Fallen stock; 200 hunts collect 366,000 head of fallen stock per annum. This is an average of
> 1,830 head per hunt. 80% of hunts estimate that demand for this service from farmers is
> growing by up to 50% per annum
> These 200 hunts spend a total of £3.37million annually on collecting this stock. This is an
> average of £18,000 per hunt and £9.20 per animal collected.


But of course this can't apply to fox hunting can it? Seeing as fox hunting is illegal now.


----------



## Tapir

well, round of applause antis...as I said about a million pages ago, (and sadly had to prove that I was not bitching to Inca's Mum - quite the opposite actually) this thread has made me think. I can safely say I am closer to the fence than I was.

A clap for the pros too, managed to say your piece without getting nasty.

Bravo to all for a relatively pleasant debate.


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> I will make it clear now.
> 
> (Maybe I haven't previously made it that clear and I apologise for that)
> 
> PERSONALLY.
> I class myself as Pro-Hunting.
> However, I can fully accept the antis opinions, and do see both sides of the argument.
> I have not hunted on horseback before. I have followed hunts by car/on foot and my close friend is a hunter and we discuss it a lot.
> I support the hunts who treat their hounds well.
> 
> I think if fox hunting did ever return - there would need to be stricter rules with regards to SOME hunts care of their hounds. (I don't know any, but as links prove, it does go on)
> Also needs fairer grounds ie no blocking of exits for foxes, once the fox has escpaed, it's escaped, not trapped etc.
> 
> I do not condone the breaking of the law (which I accept some hunts do - not the ones I know.)
> However, I do also know that GENUINE accidents happen.
> 
> They are my views and I would appriciate it if you allowed me to have my own opinions.


No need for the melodrama hun - no-one on any thread has said you are not entitled to your own opinions. However, when you post your opinions on a discussion thread, you have to accept that people with opposing opinions will a) question your opinions and b) try to make you see their own point of view.

Now, having said that, the two things I would like to ask you are:

1. If you can see both sides of the argument, what tips it for you into classing yourself as pro-hunting?

2. How do you justify to yourself the fact that you are pro-something that causes such cruelty and suffering to animals (even if you have not personally seen the cruelty and suffering)?

This is not having a go and neither is it saying you are not entitled to your own opinion - it is a genuine attempt on my part to understand a pro-hunter's reasons for being pro-hunting.


----------



## Tapir

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> But of course this can't apply to fox hunting can it? Seeing as fox hunting is illegal now.


you still pay for drag hunting


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> i also love that saying because its very true...and no it couldnt be more apt for this thread could it lol


An oldie but a goodie 

Yes, it's come to mind on more than one occasion while reading ambiguous and contradicting posts


----------



## Inca's Mum

Just to lighten the mood a little


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Tapir said:


> you still pay for drag hunting


I don't have a problem with drag hunting so long as no foxes are caught, the hounds are well controlled, cared for and none are put to sleep or rehomed for younger dogs at the end of the day  x


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> Just to lighten the mood a little


them foxfur feet warmers are nice:thumbup:


----------



## Tapir

Spellweaver said:


> No need for the melodrama hun - no-one on any thread has said you are not entitled to your own opinions. However, when you post your opinions on a discussion thread, you have to accept that people with opposing opinions will a) question your opinions and b) try to make you see their own point of view.
> 
> Now, having said that, the two things I would like to ask you are:
> 
> 1. If you can see both sides of the argument, what tips it for you into classing yourself as pro-hunting?
> 
> 2. How do you justify to yourself the fact that you are pro-something that causes such cruelty and suffering to animals (even if you have not personally seen the cruelty and suffering)?
> 
> This is not having a go and neither is it saying you are not entitled to your own opinion - it is a genuine attempt on my part to understand a pro-hunter's reasons for being pro-hunting.


no melo-drama there.

1) I honestly don't know. We clicked the post button at the same time so have a look at the post I made above 
I *think* it is my background to be honest. I just have those beliefs in me, and a certian hardness being farming background. (Hypocritical that i raised a litter of orphan wild mice though eh)
I am only 17, and I'm not quite certain of my views on anything right now. 
2)Similar to above. I'm not sure to be honest. Like I say, i will but hours of effort into saving the lives of 6 pests which my dad spends ages trying to get rid of in the barn. I can't give you a reasonable answer I'm afraid.

I don't imagine you would understand a pro-hunter's reasons, but I do appriciate the fact that you have said you are trying.


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And where does it say I'm pro fox hunting exactly? I'm not trying to justify any mistreatment of animals, just point out that it happens in all walks of life, some seem keener to turn a blind eye in different situations though.
> 
> (PS in the kitchen on the desktop while I'm cooking tea, and no, I don't suffer from a high blood pressure)


well i dont turn a blind eye to ANY animal cruelty....and i think its easy to see what views someone has because their posts speak for themselves dont they....and also how come ive never seen you posting about other forms of animal cruelty( like intensively reared farm animals, hamsters in cages etc,) on puppy farming threads for example? or cruelty to dog threads?...because you do it ALL the time on hunting threads, and it really does seem as tho youre trying to justify it when you do that:arf:


----------



## Tapir

borderer said:


> them foxfur feet warmers are nice:thumbup:


 :lol: bordie, you legend.


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> I don't think that really has anything to do with it personally, these hunts are breeding dogs which they KNOW only have a shelf life of seven tears maximum (unless exceptional stud dogs.) They breed them knowing that fundamentally they have little real chance of finding a home once their working life is over ... but why should they worry  "Tradition" dictates that a bullet is a quick and easy answer to their problem
> 
> You ask ~ "Seriously though what are the breed rescues doing??"
> 
> Which breed rescues? Surely the hunt who breeds the hounds should be responsible for a lifetime of welfare and back up, just as we would surely expect any other respectable and ethical (though in fairness neither are words which equate to fox hunting) dog breeder to be?


I think it is the same thing...why not rehome them? Why not treat them as every other dog? why assume that because a dog has history it is not worthy of a home? who decides this?

Working...no sorry make that VOLUNTEERING for a rescue myself (a breed rescue at that) responsible for taking on ex hunting dogs (beagles) I find it funny that no one cares enough to start a breed rescue for ex hunting dogs.

The breeders in an ideal world would take responsibilty but they do not...like every other immoral, unethical breeder in existance...it unfortunately falls at the feet of rescues and volunteers! Like the greyhound rescue, GSD rescue, labrador rescue they take on all the rejects all the working dogs who no longer have a place in our society. When I say where are the breed rescues there must be some way to save these poor dogs? Someone must know what happenss and how to stop that! Why are Foxhounds any different to beagles, greyhounds, labradors, german shepards? Why should any dog have a better chance at life than another? All dogs deserve a second chance I don't know why you disagree with that?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> well i dont turn a blind eye to ANY animal cruelty....and i think its easy to see what views someone has because their posts speak for themselves dont they....and also how come ive never seen you posting about other forms of animal cruelty( like intensively reared farm animals, hamsters in cages etc,) on puppy farming threads for example? or cruelty to dog threads?...because you do it ALL the time on hunting threads, and it really does seem as tho youre trying to justify it when you do that:arf:


Ummm, maybe you need to read back on this thread, I mention puppy farming early on (from memory), as well as pointing to pet ownership, and how poor pet ownership contributes to cruelty.

Maybe I reply on the hunting threads because it's something I'm interested in, in the same way someone else seems to post an awful lot about wolves 

This thread has been nice until the recent snide remarks by a couple of members, not sure I want to partake in a debate that can't remain civil tbh


----------



## Spellweaver

Tapir said:


> no melo-drama there.
> 
> 1) I honestly don't know. We clicked the post button at the same time so have a look at the post I made above
> I *think* it is my background to be honest. I just have those beliefs in me, and a certian hardness being farming background. (Hypocritical that i raised a litter of orphan wild mice though eh)
> I am only 17, and I'm not quite certain of my views on anything right now.
> 2)Similar to above. I'm not sure to be honest. Like I say, i will but hours of effort into saving the lives of 6 pests which my dad spends ages trying to get rid of in the barn. I can't give you a reasonable answer I'm afraid.
> 
> I don't imagine you would understand a pro-hunter's reasons, but I do appriciate the fact that you have said you are trying.


Oh, I'm very trying!!! 

I would love to understand a pro-hunter's reasons - understanding something is the beginning of working towards a solution. Unfortunately no-one can seem to explain their reasons for being pro-hunting to me except in the very vaguest of terms. Thank you for trying, though. :thumbup:


----------



## Tapir

Spellweaver said:


> Oh, I'm very trying!!!
> 
> I would love to understand a pro-hunter's reasons - understanding something is the beginning of working towards a solution. Unfortunately no-one can seem to explain their reasons for being pro-hunting to me except in the very vaguest of terms. Thank you for trying, though. :thumbup:


I'm not sure we/they, certainly I, know ourselves. I genuinely think it is down to background. And if you are not from a family who is like that, you may not understand. I don't know, I can't explain. :lol:


----------



## piggybaker

round and round and around we go where we stop know one knows:scared:


----------



## bullet

Its a big tradition in this town every boxing day, they get thousands here, i suppose the only one that doesn't have a good day out is the fox


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ummm, maybe you need to read back on this thread, I mention puppy farming early on (from memory), as well as pointing to pet ownership, and how poor pet ownership contributes to cruelty.
> 
> Maybe I reply on the hunting threads because it's something I'm interested in, in the same way someone else seems to post an awful lot about wolves
> 
> This thread has been nice until the recent snide remarks by a couple of members, not sure I want to partake in a debate that can't remain civil tbh


so youve mentioned puppy farming on some animal cruelty thread in the same way you use intensive farming practices on hunting threads?....please dont tell me you mean on here lol

yes i love Wolves and hate the fact that hunters want them delisted so they can massacre them...sadly some folk even sneer at me for my utter despair for them

yeah i know what its like to be mocked....infact it was you who dubbed my views 'Disneyland' ones wasnt it


----------



## Amethyst

Buster's Mummy said:


> I think it is the same thing...why not re-home them? Why not treat them as every other dog? why assume that because a dog has history it is not worthy of a home? who decides this?


Ultimately to start a breed rescue I would suggest it helps to have an in depth knowledge of the breed, it's temperament etc. hence those ideally placed to start these rescue would surely be people who work with the hounds and those that are familiar with them via their hobby of hunting. Though that said, we have already seen one or two posters indicate that they see them in a different way as pets dogs ... so maybe not 

I have heard that hunts are very loathe to let their old hounds and pups go into rescues? I have also heard via this thread people indicate that there is no reason to have a rescue as all the dogs are more or less adopted via hunting people (ahem)....

Foxhounds would I believe need special owners, with special knowledge of breed and having been involved in rescue myself, do not believe they would popular as pets for a myriad reasons, some perhaps perceived some quite valid.

Like it or not many rescue will not accept Staffies now routinely or otherwise, some won't take other breeds ... Why because they block kennels.
Would it be any different for the hounds?

Who decides if a dog is worthy of a home? Ultimately the would-be-owners, the public. That it seems is the reality 

Sadly I see no fairy tale ending for Foxhounds, real or imagined. For some yes, possibly, but not the numbers produced.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> so youve mentioned puppy farming on some animal cruelty thread in the same way you use intensive farming practices on hunting threads?....please dont tell me you mean on here lol
> 
> yes i love Wolves and hate the fact that hunters want them delisted so they can massacre them...sadly some folk even sneer at me for my utter despair for them
> 
> yeah i know what its like to be mocked....infact it was you who dubbed my views 'Disneyland' ones wasnt it


So the truth is really out, you don't like me or my views, so choose to have a pick at me, nice.

I've tried never to mock an individual, I always try and generalise my posts, so if I've ever accused you personally of holding disneyland views, then please, show me where, and I'll apologise.


----------



## Patterdale_lover

Cwoaaar....You lot don't half like throwing your toys out the pram one someone disagrees. 

Jeeze have your own opinions but some members who i RESPECTED have sunk to unbelievably low levels on this thread. 

Grow up. It's meant to be an adult debate and you have not respected the OP's wishes of keeping it civilised. 

No matter how much you bleat on at other people about how you're pro or anti that isn't going to change their views. 

Sh*t happens. Deal with it.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but most of us here are meant to be good friends are you're slating eachother like you're worst enemies. It's a bloody shame.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Patterdale_lover said:


> Cwoaaar....You lot don't half like throwing your toys out the pram one someone disagrees.
> 
> Jeeze have your own opinions but some members who i RESPECTED have sunk to unbelievably low levels on this thread.
> 
> Grow up. It's meant to be an adult debate and you have not respected the OP's wishes of keeping it civilised.
> 
> No matter how much you bleat on at other people about how you're pro or anti that isn't going to change their views.
> 
> Sh*t happens. Deal with it.
> 
> I'm sorry to be blunt, but most of us here are meant to be good friends are you're slating eachother like you're worst enemies. It's a bloody shame.


get used to it, its how most debates end up like on here


----------



## Guest

Patterdale_lover said:


> Cwoaaar....You lot don't half like throwing your toys out the pram one someone disagrees.
> 
> Jeeze have your own opinions but some members who i RESPECTED have sunk to unbelievably low levels on this thread.
> 
> Grow up. It's meant to be an adult debate and you have not respected the OP's wishes of keeping it civilised.
> 
> No matter how much you bleat on at other people about how you're pro or anti that isn't going to change their views.
> 
> Sh*t happens. Deal with it.
> 
> I'm sorry to be blunt, but most of us here are meant to be good friends are you're slating eachother like you're worst enemies. It's a bloody shame.


Welcome to pet forums:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Patterdale_lover

smudge2009 said:


> get used to it, its how most debates end up like on here





DoubleTrouble said:


> Welcome to pet forums:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


I been here nearly two years and I can honestly say I have never seen it this bad.


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So the truth is really out, you don't like me or my views, so choose to have a pick at me, nice.
> 
> I've tried never to mock an individual, I always try and generalise my posts, so if I've ever accused you personally of holding disneyland views, then please, show me where, and I'll apologise.


no i dont pick on you at all and if you feel i do then i am sorry

you do make me laff have you forgotton already ...

less than 6 days ago on  forum it was mentioned, you even knew which thread it was said on, but you didnt apologise you went on to patronise me instead:arf:...but its okay we'll forget about it now..theres no hard feelings on my part


----------



## Amethyst

I think there has been a lot of good open debate, sure there have been some, I guess children/youngsters on here posting disruptively, but I guess that happens anywhere  

You can always put people on "ignore" which is useful if they are not adding to debate, so no big issue


----------



## Patterdale_lover

Amethyst said:


> I think there has been a lot of good open debate, sure there have been some, I guess children/youngsters on here posting disruptively, but I guess that happens anywhere
> 
> You can always put people on "ignore" which is useful if they are not adding to debate, so no big issue


Actually the younger members are not the worst. It's actually some of the older ones I feel have been the worse. Hense why I'm so shocked.


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> I think there has been a lot of good open debate, sure there have been some, I guess children/youngsters on here posting disruptively, but I guess that happens anywhere
> 
> You can always put people on "ignore" which is useful if they are not adding to debate, so no big issue


The only "children/youngsters" as far as I believe are me and Inca's Mum. Was that aimed at us? i don't feel we were disruptive at all...


----------



## Patterdale_lover

Tapir said:


> The only "children/youngsters" as far as I believe are me and Inca's Mum. Was that aimed at us? i don't feel we were disruptive at all...


I'm a "youngster" as well and I find some of the "older" forum members have been the worst, even belittling the younger members. I'm sorry no matter what you do NOT gang up on anyone purely for their views, let alone a young member.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Patterdale_lover said:


> I been here nearly two years and I can honestly say I have never seen it this bad.


the last few weeks it as, and its not just on debates

we are all here to discuss subjects that we either agree or disagree with , not everyone will agree or disagree with everyone

like i said in a earlier post, keep it to the subject and not keep hyjacking it... the topic is foxhunting, not rabbit , ferret even puppy farms

some things i agree with and others i dont, i dont have a bitchy go at people either because of their comments


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

i don't think its that bad i've seen worse, it's a debate it's not meant to be all fluffly and pink! i don't think any members have taken anything to heart  i havent lols :lol:


----------



## Patterdale_lover

smudge2009 said:


> the last few weeks it as, and its not just on debates
> 
> we are all here to discuss subjects that we either agree or disagree with , not everyone will agree or disagree with everyone
> 
> like i said in a earlier post, keep it to the subject and not keep hyjacking it... the topic is foxhunting, not rabbit , ferret even puppy farms
> 
> some things i agree with and others i dont, i dont have a bitchy go at people either because of their comments


Exactly what it should be like! I have kept silent throughout the thread as I didn't want to get involved but It's just so stupid!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> no i dont pick on you at all and if you feel i do then i am sorry
> 
> you do make me laff have you forgotton already ...
> 
> less than 6 days ago on  forum it was mentioned, you even knew which thread it was said on, but you didnt apologise you went on to patronise me instead:arf:...but its okay we'll forget about it now..theres no hard feelings on my part


It did feel a little that way with the old hunt saying, almost insinuating I couldn't be trusted, not that I actually hunt a thing. But let's by gones be by gones 

I can't remember patronising you, apologies if it came across that way, I do sometimes give as good as I get on threads, but don't set out to belittle anyone on purpose.

I do actually value and understand your opinion, I just don't always agree with it.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> i don't think its that bad i've seen worse, it's a debate it's not meant to be all fluffly and pink! i don't think any members have taken anything to heart  i havent lols :lol:


I agree, I to have seen worse - its a debate, with strangers on a forum - alot of people are just so sensitive if people dont like it they do not have to post!


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Tapir said:


> The only "children/youngsters" as far as I believe are me and Inca's Mum. Was that aimed at us? i don't feel we were disruptive at all...


I duno how old you are? But i'm 17, i don't think i've been disruptive lols!


----------



## Tapir

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I duno how old you are? But i'm 17, i don't think i've been disruptive lols!


Ah i didn't realise you were 17. Me too  and Inca's Mum is 15 i believe?


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It did feel a little that way with the old hunt saying, almost insinuating I couldn't be trusted, not that I actually hunt a thing. But let's by gones be by gones
> 
> I can't remember patronising you, apologies if it came across that way, I do sometimes give as good as I get on threads, but don't set out to belittle anyone on purpose.
> 
> I do actually value and understand your opinion, I just don't always agree with it.


its fine im really glad its all sorted now, and im sure we'll be embroiled in plenty more debates


----------



## Guest

Devil-Dogz said:


> I agree, I to have seen worse - its a debate, with strangers on a forum - alot of people are just so sensitive if people dont like it they do not have to post!


I agree....I have seen it worse on here. Maybe its the threads we hang around in...:lol:

Its a debate that has strong feelings mixed in its bound to get stretched with people trying to make their point by using other examples and so on.

I dont think its that bad.....they are not swearing or having a go not really.

Good old petforums...not pink and fluffy just how I like it. :lol:

Life would be boring if we all agree'd.


----------



## Patterdale_lover

Devil-Dogz said:


> I agree, I to have seen worse - its a debate, with strangers on a forum - alot of people are just so sensitive if people dont like it they do not have to post!


If you're suggesting I'm sensitive I'm far from it  Just hate seeing people being targeted and people being immature.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

noushka05 said:


> its fine im really glad its all sorted now, and im sure we'll be embroiled in plenty more debates


Phew! Off to get a much needed glass of red


----------



## Guest

Devil-Dogz said:


> I agree, I to have seen worse - its a debate, with strangers on a forum - alot of people are just so sensitive if people dont like it they do not have to post!


Sensitive! yep! met a few of them! gonna have to agree with you on that! some are so sensitive we need to wrap em up in cotton wool!


----------



## Amethyst

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> i don't think its that bad i've seen worse, it's a debate it's not meant to be all fluffly and pink! i don't think any members have taken anything to heart  i havent lols :lol:


Me neither, this thread has simply deepened my resolve to do more to protect our native wildlife from hunting.... Even in a small way. Bit old to go sabbing now  But who knows, might see me on youtube one day :thumbup:

It's been lovely to "get to know" one or two other members better because of shared beliefs and our love of all animals.

Cheers everyone ...


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Tapir said:


> Ah i didn't realise you were 17. Me too  and Inca's Mum is 15 i believe?


Yeah i know shes a bit younger too! Well I don't think we've been that bad tbh :lol: I actually thought this debate was going okay  Sure there were a couple of posts (or pages :lol that were very jeremy kyleish but hey let by gones be by gones .. or whatever the saying is :thumbup:


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Phew! Off to get a much needed glass of red


haha can you pour me one, I am on the last little bit 

I know your not insensitive Patterdale lover, I remember you from my first time on here.


----------



## holly1

Age is a number.
You have opinions at any age.
Its how you conduct yourself that matters.
A few 'grown ups' here, have acted more like kids than the real 'kids' on this thread.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

DoubleTrouble said:


> Sensitive! yep! met a few of them! gonna have to agree with you on that! some are so sensitive we need to wrap em up in cotton wool!


:eek6: :eek6:


----------



## Guest

Jess (Inca's Mum) is 14, and the creator (sorry, nutcase moment there) of this thread (me) is 16...


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst who were the disruptive youngsters? Or rather were you referring to myself and Inca's Mum?


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

DoubleTrouble said:


> Sensitive! yep! met a few of them! gonna have to agree with you on that! some are so sensitive we need to wrap em up in cotton wool!


DT your the most sensitive of them all ya big wet blanket :ciappa:!

Before anyone makes me red blob them i jest muahaha :001_wub:


----------



## Tapir

Chillinator said:


> Jess (Inca's Mum) is 14, and the creator (sorry, nutcase moment there) of this thread (me) is 16...


:eek6: bloody hell are you? You seem a lot more mature than that!


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Amethyst said:


> Me neither, this thread has simply deepened my resolve to do more to protect our native wildlife from hunting.... Even in a small way. Bit old to go sabbing now  But who knows, might see me on youtube one day :thumbup:
> 
> It's been lovely to "get to know" one or two other members better because of shared beliefs and our love of all animals.
> 
> Cheers everyone ...


Agreed ! I feel like i've noticed some members now that i never really knew before and it's nice that to know that they share the same opinion as me  x


----------



## Amethyst

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I duno how old you are? But i'm 17, i don't think i've been disruptive lols!


I don't think so  

I meant the silly comments that had nothing at all to do with the debate


----------



## Tapir

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Agreed ! I feel like i've noticed some members now that i never really knew before and it's nice that to know that they share the same opinion as me  x


Or even differing views


----------



## Guest

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> DT your the most sensitive of them all ya big wet blanket :ciappa:!
> 
> Before anyone makes me red blob them i jest muahaha :001_wub:


I know! I've just been reduced to a shivering wreak on another thread have I:scared::scared::scared:


----------



## Amethyst

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Agreed ! I feel like i've noticed some members now that i never really knew before and it's nice that to know that they share the same opinion as me  x


"Brothers or sisters in arms" or something like that :thumbup:


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Tapir said:


> Or even differing views


Exactly  :thumbup:


----------



## Patterdale_lover

Devil-Dogz said:


> haha can you pour me one, I am on the last little bit
> 
> I know your not insensitive Patterdale lover, I remember you from my first time on here.


Ohhh  I have a bad feeling thats not a good thing


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

DoubleTrouble said:


> I know! I've just been reduced to a shivering wreak on another thread have I:scared::scared::scared:


I noticed :lol: It was rather amusing though you have to admit  Although before I got to the end it went walkies . There goes my nightly fix of PF drama :lol: x


----------



## cool-jim

Get a room you lot. it's gone from one extreme to the other.

I feel quite sick now.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

cool-jim said:


> Get a room you lot. it's gone from one extreme to the other.
> 
> I feel quite sick now.


Would you like a bag :arf:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Me neither, this thread has simply deepened my resolve to do more to protect our native wildlife from hunting.... Even in a small way. Bit old to go sabbing now  But who knows, might see me on youtube one day :thumbup:
> 
> It's been lovely to "get to know" one or two other members better because of shared beliefs and our love of all animals.
> 
> Cheers everyone ...


I hope (in our new pink and fluffy mode) I'm not seen as picking on you, but do you realise just how much is done for the conservation of the British countryside, and the animals in it, by those who enjoy forms of hunting and shooting? You may find yourself converting, if you resolve to do more for the British countryside


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I hope (in our new pink and fluffy mode) I'm not seen as picking on you, but do you realise just how much is done for the conservation of the British countryside, and the animals in it, by those who enjoy forms of hunting and shooting? You may find yourself converting, if you resolve to do more for the British countryside


I doubt it, I'm choosy over the company I keep 

Ooops, there goes my pink fluffy halo *yikes*  :lol:


----------



## noushka05

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Phew! Off to get a much needed glass of red


enjoy!



Devil-Dogz said:


> haha can you pour me one, I am on the last little bit
> .


Blimey DD youve gone a bit refined! drinking red wine!... i remember the days when you use to knock back buckets and troughs of voddie!:eek6:....with a straw:001_tt2: pmsl



Waterlily said:


> aw yeah but anyway want some :arf:


haha you numpty:lol:



Amethyst said:


> Me neither, this thread has simply deepened my resolve to do more to protect our native wildlife from hunting.... Even in a small way. Bit old to go sabbing now  But who knows, might see me on youtube one day :thumbup:
> 
> It's been lovely to "get to know" one or two other members better because of shared beliefs and our love of all animals.
> 
> Cheers everyone ...


agreed!.... i might even join you sabbing haha.

and just incase you missed my post i want you to know Waterlily is a really really lovely person


----------



## Devil-Dogz

noushka05 said:


> Blimey DD youve gone a bit refined! drinking red wine!... i remember the days when you use to knock back buckets and troughs of voddie!:eek6:....with a straw:001_tt2: pmsl


pahaha.. ermm thought it werent very lady like, so ermm changed me ways


----------



## noushka05

Devil-Dogz said:


> pahaha.. ermm thought it werent very lady like, so ermm changed me ways


does this mean you dont dance on the bar anymore aswell then?:eek6:


----------



## Inca's Mum

Well I've had a great time on this thread it's been very eye-opening and though I haven't changed my views it's changed how I think of things anyway. I'm so surprised how long it has lasted


----------



## Devil-Dogz

noushka05 said:


> does this mean you dont dance on the bar anymore aswell then?:eek6:


  ermm yeah

Here noush have a wee piccie for you!


----------



## Starlite

noushka05 said:


> does this mean you dont dance on the bar anymore aswell then?:eek6:


Do you have any idea how dangerous that is?!

I had to get up out my bed to take my MUM to hospital due to this kinda dancing, she fell off and broke her wrist the numpty and promptly phoned me pi$$ed out her tree laughing  :lol:


----------



## Guest

Actually there is a guy on deviantart and he is amazing at photography. He takes pictures of foxes so here's some as we need some cuteness to go with the love.


























And....









Aparently the bear didnt want to hurt the fox just chase it..

Beautiful.


----------



## Amethyst

noushka05 said:


> agreed!.... i might even join you sabbing haha.
> 
> and just incase you missed my post i want you to know Waterlily is a really really lovely person


You never know 

I shall contact waterlily later perhaps, maybe I did misinterpret post, never mind she got her own back  But no hard feelings here, been called worse and I am thick skinned, years in nursing ...cope with A and E on a Saturday night and you can deal with anything 

I used to go to hunt protests years ago, peaceful ones organised by LACS and met a lovely crowd of people who met up to raise awareness of cruelty involved with hunting. Nursing took up more of my time eventually and family commitment and I am sad to say my involvement waned to nothing. But it's never too late and having rejoined LACS plan to see what local events may be going on.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> I doubt it, I'm choosy over the company I keep
> 
> Ooops, there goes my pink fluffy halo *yikes*  :lol:


Ahhh the pink and fluffy halo slips, chuckle. You may not agree with people, doesn't mean they aren't someone you'd sit in a pub and discuss stuff over a pint of beer.


----------



## noushka05

Devil-Dogz said:


> ermm yeah
> 
> Here noush have a wee piccie for you!


thought you'd not changed that much missy

awwww so beautiful:001_wub: is that one of your rescues DD?



Starlite said:


> Do you have any idea how dangerous that is?!
> 
> I had to get up out my bed to take my MUM to hospital due to this kinda dancing, she fell off and broke her wrist the numpty and promptly phoned me pi$$ed out her tree laughing  :lol:


Oops gotta say tho your Mum sounds great fun!:lol:



shetlandlover said:


> Actually there is a guy on deviantart and he is amazing at photography. He takes pictures of foxes so here's some as we need some cuteness to go with the love.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aparently the bear didnt want to hurt the fox just chase it..
> 
> Beautiful.


Gorgeous the lot of em....including bear:thumbup:



Amethyst said:


> You never know
> 
> I shall contact waterlily later perhaps, maybe I did misinterpret post, never mind she got her own back  But no hard feelings here, been called worse and I am thick skinned, years in nursing ...cope with A and E on a Saturday night and you can deal with anything
> 
> I used to go to hunt protests years ago, peaceful ones organised by LACS and met a lovely crowd of people who met up to raise awareness of cruelty involved with hunting. Nursing took up more of my time eventually and family commitment and I am sad to say my involvement waned to nothing. But it's never too late and having rejoined LACS plan to see what local events may be going on.


glad to hear that about WL she just likes to have fun and shes also passionate about all critters

ive never been to a hunt protest, i dont drive so its a bit of a pain but thats no excuse really  i should check out and see if theres anything localish, i think LACS are amazing


----------



## Devil-Dogz

noushka05 said:


> thought you'd not changed that much missy
> 
> awwww so beautiful:001_wub: is that one of your rescues DD?


Yep, hes a permant, has back left leg missing. Bless him.


----------



## noushka05

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yep, hes a permant, has back left leg missing. Bless him.


aw thats such ashame..how did he lose it?... he looks so trusting, bless.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

noushka05 said:


> aw thats such ashame..how did he lose it?... he looks so trusting, bless.


He bites your feet, when you go to feed and charge waters ect! From a dog attack, the dogs owner brought him in, I believe there was serve nerve damage resulting in him having it amputated.


----------



## noushka05

Devil-Dogz said:


> He bites your feet, when you go to feed and charge waters ect! From a dog attack, the dogs owner brought him in, I believe there was serve nerve damage resulting in him having it amputated.


lol he sounds like hes got a strong character inspite of whats happened to him, bet youre very fond of him...thank goodness the dogs owner brought him in and didnt just leave him to suffer.


----------



## Waterlily

noushka05 said:


> thought you'd not changed that much missy
> 
> awwww so beautiful:001_wub: is that one of your rescues DD?
> 
> Oops gotta say tho your Mum sounds great fun!:lol:
> 
> Gorgeous the lot of em....including bear:thumbup:
> 
> glad to hear that about WL she just likes to have fun and shes also passionate about all critters
> 
> ive never been to a hunt protest, i dont drive so its a bit of a pain but thats no excuse really  i should check out and see if theres anything localish, i think LACS are amazing


aww luv ya noush  :lol: and yep will be waiting  :lol: :lol:


----------



## poohdog

Waterlily said:


> aww luv ya noush  :lol: and yep will be waiting  :lol: :lol:


What's a noush??


----------



## Guest

poohdog said:


> What's a noush??


ya put it round ya kneck:scared:


----------



## poohdog

borderer said:


> ya put it round ya kneck:scared:


What's a kneck??


----------



## Guest

poohdog said:


> What's a kneck??


a neck is what ya head is on:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

is fox hunting realy cruel


----------



## Waterlily

poohdog said:


> What's a noush??


noushka


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Waterlily said:


> noushka


Does that make me 'asleep'? :thumbup:


----------



## hawksport

borderer said:


> is fox hunting realy cruel


From what I can work out from the last 112 pages as long as they're not posh foxes in red jackets and they don't enjoy themselves they should be ok


----------



## dee o gee

shetlandlover said:


> Actually there is a guy on deviantart and he is amazing at photography. He takes pictures of foxes so here's some as we need some cuteness to go with the love.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Aparently the bear didnt want to hurt the fox just chase it..*
> 
> Beautiful.


Lovely photos!

And the last bit highlighted, should someone tell the hunters their doing it wrong, they should be using bears not dogs! :lol:


----------



## snoopydo

Well it looks like the Debate is over....

My Conclusions.....The pro's have not managed to change my mind.

And I never did get my Question answered .....Why do they Enjoy it and What do they get out of it...

''Well apart from the pretty pictures, The enjoyment of meeting people, having a laugh and having a good ride across the countyside.... You don't need to be chasing a poor animal to do that''


Oh Well, I guess some Questions will never be answered


----------



## JANICE199

snoopydo said:


> Well it looks like the Debate is over....
> 
> My Conclusions.....The pro's have not managed to change my mind.
> 
> And I never did get my Question answered .....Why do they Enjoy it and What do they get out of it...
> 
> ''Well apart from the pretty pictures, The enjoyment of meeting people, having a laugh and having a good ride across the countyside.... You don't need to be chasing a poor animal to do that''
> 
> Oh Well, I guess some Questions will never be answered


*My guess is,they won't answer your questions because if they did they would be owning up to agreeing with a cruel and barbaric passtime.*


----------



## MissShelley

snoopydo said:


> Well it looks like the Debate is over....
> 
> My Conclusions.....The pro's have not managed to change my mind.
> 
> And I never did get my Question answered .....Why do they Enjoy it and What do they get out of it...
> 
> ''Well apart from the pretty pictures, The enjoyment of meeting people, having a laugh and having a good ride across the countyside.... You don't need to be chasing a poor animal to do that''
> 
> Oh Well, I guess some Questions will never be answered


Agreed... All it's done is reinforce my beliefs in why it's wrong... And as for questions not being answered, I can relate to that! I asked for a response when a poster said that the hounds got 'punished' if they outed a fox on a drag... I wanted to know what kind of punishment they recieved  Which also made me think about the treatment of the hounds, it seems to me it's not just the fox that is abused 

Still waiting.......


----------



## snoopydo

I agree it seems it's not just the Foxes That Suffer. Did you see the link with all the pics of The Hounds being Shot? 

Yes I saw your question about the punishment of Hounds people can state these things freely but when questioned they don't respond... 

Thing is if the Hounds are 'Bred' to chase Foxes...You can't really blame/punish the Dog For chasing other Animals ... Doe's the Dog know the Difference between a Fox, Cat or other Animal? NO, It WILL chase and kill anything that runs..

What I mean is You can't Cheer/Reward the Dog for Chasing killing a Fox THEN on the other hand punish it for doing the same to some other Animal. Those Dogs must be so bloody confused and The Question of How much Control have they over the Dogs...If you read the link I put up about How many ''pets'' that have been killed it seems there's Very little or NO Control at all. VERY Irresponsible/Dangerous to have a pack of Uncontrollable Blood Thirsty Dogs running loose all over the countryside. I'm NOT Blaming the Dogs of Course They've been Conditioned by ''Humans''


----------



## JANICE199

snoopydo said:


> I agree it seems it's not just the Foxes That Suffer. Did you see the link with all the pics of The Hounds being Shot?


*No i must have missed that post.How far back is it?*


----------



## momentofmadness

Tally ho...... Who's for a glass of champers!! haha


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Tally ho...... Who's for a glass of champers!! haha


Thought it were hot mead or summat!


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> Thought it were hot mead or summat!


haha Out on a hunt on each leg, a glass of something, a couple of sarnies a loo break in the bushes... and offf again.. to blow the cobwebs away.. LOLhaha
I remember going to watch once and a friends was in her 4x4 and we were in ours, we had a riders dog with us..lol after first leg she got a hamper out and it was champers.. lol my OH at the time had a drink and I had to drive the rest of the hunt..lol she kept forcing it down him, then back to the pub round the log fire to talk about anything and everything..


----------



## smudgiesmummy

i once went to point to point ( Weatherbys Point-to-Point )with my grandad who knows a lot of people who have horses as hes a retired blacksmith /farrier

and he went to see some of his friends who had horses there and as we were just about to see them we saw a couple and they had a very large whicker picnic hamper open , a labrador went up to it and cocked his leg right in the basket, me and my parents never laughed so much :lol: :lol: :thumbup:


----------



## snoopydo

JANICE199 said:


> *No i must have missed that post.How far back is it?*


IT's all in here

Fox Hunting News

Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers


----------



## Spellweaver

JANICE199 said:


> *My guess is,they won't answer your questions because if they did they would be owning up to agreeing with a cruel and barbaric passtime.*


I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head here Janice - hence all the fudging, the airy-fairy answers, the deflection techniques, and the ignoring of questions. I wonder though - are they are just trying to avoid admitting to other people on the forum that what they support is cruel and horrendous, or are they are actually trying to deny it and justify it to themselves?


----------



## momentofmadness

smudge2009 said:


> i once went to point to point ( Weatherbys Point-to-Point )with my grandad who knows a lot of people who have horses as hes a retired blacksmith /farrier
> 
> and he went to see some of his friends who had horses there and as we were just about to see them we saw a couple and they had a very large whicker picnic hamper open , a labrador went up to it and cocked his leg right in the basket, me and my parents never laughed so much :lol: :lol: :thumbup:


hahah Alot of the hunt dogs will cock there legs up anything.. I was at warry show the other year.. the hunt came out with the pac.. my mates was sat on the floor and the dog cocked his leg up his back.. :lol:


----------



## smudgiesmummy

momentofmadness said:


> hahah Alot of the hunt dogs will cock there legs up anything.. I was at warry show the other year.. the hunt came out with the pac.. my mates was sat on the floor and the dog cocked his leg up his back.. :lol:


:lol: i bet he soon moved :thumbup:


----------



## snoopydo

Spellweaver said:


> I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head here Janice - hence all the fudging, the airy-fairy answers, the deflection techniques, and the ignoring of questions. I wonder though - are they are just trying to avoid admitting to other people on the forum that what they support is cruel and horrendous, or are they are actually trying to deny it and justify it to themselves?


I Think you've sumed it up very well there Spellweaver 

They Can't actually DENY it ...They've admitted to doing it.. AND How on earth ANYONE CAN Justify it is quite beyond me.


----------



## JANICE199

*


snoopydo said:



IT's all in here

Fox Hunting News

Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers

Click to expand...

 Thankyou for the links, i had seen them before ( i've seen so many).And people still think this sport is fun?



Spellweaver said:



I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head here Janice - hence all the fudging, the airy-fairy answers, the deflection techniques, and the ignoring of questions. I wonder though - are they are just trying to avoid admitting to other people on the forum that what they support is cruel and horrendous, or are they are actually trying to deny it and justify it to themselves?

Click to expand...

Well be honest Val,if they openly admit they don't see any harm in killing,or scaring the life out of a fox, they would the look pretty stupid moaning about byb or puppy farmers...wouldn't they?
There is no excuse for any animal cruelty imo.*


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *
> Thankyou for the links, i had seen them before ( i've seen so many).And people still think this sport is fun?
> 
> Well be honest Val,if they openly admit they don't see any harm in killing,or scaring the life out of a fox, they would the look pretty stupid moaning about byb or puppy farmers...wouldn't they?
> There is no excuse for any animal cruelty imo.*


I aint bothered to read the whole thread.. But who has admitted to doing It?


----------



## snoopydo

There's a few members that go on Hunts have gone Ferreting/Shooting etc.


----------



## momentofmadness

snoopydo said:


> There's a few members that go on Hunts have gone Ferreting/Shooting etc.


mm At the end of the day.. I guess its their choice... 
This happens every year this thread.. lol


----------



## Tapir

snoopydo said:


> There's a few members that go on Hunts have gone Ferreting/Shooting etc.


drag hunts


----------



## momentofmadness

Tapir said:


> drag hunts


Oh I love Drag hunts..lol They are so much fun...

At the end of the day the dogs get fed a load of raw something of other not that nice to see.. as buckets of it are frown...
And the whipper in has is loaded with titbits to keep the hounds in order.. 

And you still get d***heads trying to stop it..lol shouting from the side of the road out of their cars shouting how cruel you are and blocking the road up.. lol If only they had any idea at all... Plonkers!


----------



## JANICE199

momentofmadness said:


> mm At the end of the day.. I guess its their choice...
> This happens every year this thread.. lol


*I for one haven't said it isn't their choice.But it doesn't make it right.*


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *I for one haven't said it isn't their choice.But it doesn't make it right.*


Its each to their own Janice...... And dont we always have a lovely discussion on these threads..


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> There's a few members that go on Hunts have gone Ferreting/Shooting etc.


And!....................they could always lie you know ---------- or totally ignore the thread and leave it all pink and fluffy!


----------



## JANICE199

momentofmadness said:


> Its each to their own Janice...... And dont we always have a lovely discussion on these threads..


*Is it honestly a case of each to their own,if the answer is yes then there is nothing wrong with byb,bull fighting,the fur trade ect ect.*


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *
> Thankyou for the links, i had seen them before ( i've seen so many).And people still think this sport is fun?
> 
> .*


It is barbaric, to me their actions are on a par with organized dog fighting!


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *Is it honestly a case of each to their own,if the answer is yes then there is nothing wrong with byb,bull fighting,the fur trade ect ect.*


you forgot the Grand National, Buying danish pork, and battery eggs!


----------



## Robynkeating

momentofmadness said:


> Oh I love Drag hunts..lol They are so much fun...
> 
> At the end of the day the dogs get fed a load of raw something of other not that nice to see.. as buckets of it are frown...
> And the whipper in has is loaded with titbits to keep the hounds in order..
> 
> And you still get d***heads trying to stop it..lol shouting from the side of the road out of their cars shouting how cruel you are and blocking the road up.. lol If only they had any idea at all... Plonkers!


nice to see that there are other people who support DRAG hunting, not just me


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *Is it honestly a case of each to their own,if the answer is yes then there is nothing wrong with byb,bull fighting,the fur trade ect ect.*


Oh! and beating dogs to death in china to tenderize the meat for the plate!


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *Is it honestly a case of each to their own,if the answer is yes then there is nothing wrong with byb,bull fighting,the fur trade ect ect.*


I think you will find each person.. decides how they want to go..... Most will argue its tradition.. some will say its to keep population of the foxes down... And the list of reasons goes on..

BYB's and bull fighting etc... everyone will have their own personal reasons.. and Im pretty sure anyone who does any of these activities quite hapily will not back down from the argument as to whether its right or wrong because they believe what they believe...

I put on once the list of how fox hunting/drag hunting affected things.. re costs etc...

Is it fair a fox came and bit the heads off my mates geese in the night and just left all three dead on the floor headless?

Is it fair the fox came and got my mates rabbit and savagely killed it and just left it for her little girl to find in the morning.. a disgusting sight!


----------



## Guest

Robynkeating said:


> nice to see that there are other people who support DRAG hunting, not just me


Wasn't aware there was a problem on here with drag hunting - or did I miss summat! aye! maybe it were the way that the hunt demise their dogs that are past it!


----------



## momentofmadness

Oh and a minority of people hunt.. But there are thousands of back yard breeders and puppy farms.. And dogs in rescue.. But what are the government doing to help all of these??????


----------



## Robynkeating

momentofmadness said:


> Oh and a minority of people hunt.. But there are thousands of back yard breeders and puppy farms.. And dogs in rescue.. But what are the government doing to help all of these??????


exactly, we get called barbaric and red faced toffs, however many people on here will have bought a dog or a puppy from a puppy farm, you may all buy 2 for £5 chickens, and you say that we who hunt are cruel ? :confused1:


----------



## JANICE199

momentofmadness said:


> I think you will find each person.. decides how they want to go..... Most will argue its tradition.. some will say its to keep population of the foxes down... And the list of reasons goes on..
> 
> BYB's and bull fighting etc... everyone will have their own personal reasons.. and Im pretty sure anyone who does any of these activities quite hapily will not back down from the argument as to whether its right or wrong because they believe what they believe...
> 
> I put on once the list of how fox hunting/drag hunting affected things.. re costs etc...
> 
> Is it fair a fox came and bit the heads off my mates geese in the night and just left all three dead on the floor headless?
> 
> Is it fair the fox came and got my mates rabbit and savagely killed it and just left it for her little girl to find in the morning.. a disgusting sight!


*Are you suggesting the fox did it just to be cruel? I can assure you it didn't. Humans are supposed to be more intelligent than animals.But if anyone is for fox hunting then imo they are worse than the fox by a long way,because the fox doesn't kill for fun,unlike humans.*


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> Wasn't aware there was a problem on here with drag hunting - or did I miss summat! aye! maybe it were the way that the hunt demise their dogs that are past it!


You wouldn't believe DT the stick you get from know it alls when you are out on a drag hunt.. People blocking the road up.. chucking stuff at you, not allowing you passed, chucking food to the dogs.. who knows if its poisoned!

Trying to stop you getting back to the rest of the ride.. And after all they are just chasing a bit of a scent that is painting onto the horses feet..


----------



## Natik

i live in the country side and people keep all sorts in their garden... chickens, rabbits etc but they are clever enough to fence their animals in properly. My neighbour had chickens and i leave my dogs out in the garden unsupervised, they both had their eyes on his chickens but he secured them so they didnt get a chance to get to them...simples.


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *Are you suggesting the fox did it just to be cruel? I can assure you it didn't. Humans are supposed to be more intelligent than animals.But if anyone is for fox hunting then imo they are worse than the fox by a long way,because the fox doesn't kill for fun,unlike humans.*


So if the fox killed for food.. why did it not take the rabbit and the geese?

Why when a fox gets into a chicken run does it kill everything?


----------



## bellathemog

JANICE199 said:


> *Are you suggesting the fox did it just to be cruel? I can assure you it didn't. Humans are supposed to be more intelligent than animals.But if anyone is for fox hunting then imo they are worse than the fox by a long way,because the fox doesn't kill for fun,unlike humans.*


*WELL SAID*

I still want to see a bunch of foxes chasing alot of red faced murdering a*seholes through the countryside.


----------



## Natik

momentofmadness said:


> So if the fox killed for food.. why did it not take the rabbit and the geese?
> 
> Why when a fox gets into a chicken run does it kill everything?


its a survival thing, when the fox is facing a opportunity with alot of food it will kill all the chickens and usually burry them for later consumption. The fox would come back to it when he would face a day he didnt manage to hunt anything.


----------



## momentofmadness

Natik said:


> i live in the country side and people keep all sorts in their garden... chickens, rabbits etc but they are clever enough to fence their animals in properly. My neighbour had chickens and i leave my dogs out in the garden unsupervised, they both had their eyes on his chickens but he secured them so they didnt get a chance to get to them...simples.


My mates rabbit was in a cage.. in the town.. 

My cat.. we found dead at the end of the garden.. I used to live with 30 acres behind my house... She had bite marks in her neck..
My next door neighbours cat found at the end of the garden.. Dead went for a post mortem.. Vet said she had been bitten through to her lungs painful death..

My mates geese on his small holding fenced in.. obviously not adequate.

I understand that people choose to live in the country must do things to prevent these situ's from happening... But my mates rabbit? and mine and my neighbours cats?


----------



## Robynkeating

Natik said:


> i live in the country side and people keep all sorts in their garden... chickens, rabbits etc but they are clever enough to fence their animals in properly. My neighbour had chickens and i leave my dogs out in the garden unsupervised, they both had their eyes on his chickens but he secured them so they didnt get a chance to get to them...simples.


even if you fo fence them in properly the foxes can still get them, same as the newborn lambs, think how many lambs the farmers loose each spring because they are too defenseless to stop the foxes getting them. an estimated 20% of all foxes that die each year are killed on the roads compared to a 5-10% of foxes killed before the ban. Also before we started drag hunting, hunting is the only way of natural eradication for foxes. Only the weak, the dying or diseased foxes died. Every other method of control can and does occasionally leave foxes damaged and suffering. Hunted foxes are either killed outright or left to escape unhurt. And hunting kills the weaker, the slower, the infirm and the unfit. Hunting is the only means of fox control that leaves the vixen to raise her cubs unmolested during the spring and summer. Hunting is the only means of control carried out by people committed not to eradicating the fox, but to preserving a balanced population of these remarkable animals in the British countryside.


----------



## momentofmadness

Natik said:


> its a survival thing, when the fox is facing a opportunity with alot of food it will kill all the chickens and usually burry them for later consumption. The fox would come back to it when he would face a day he didnt manage to hunt anything.


I understand all about foxes and why they do things.. having grown up in the country with all country folk... But it doesn't make the feeling any easier.. x


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> *WELL SAID*
> 
> I still want to see a bunch of foxes chasing alot of red faced murdering a*seholes through the countryside.


Makes me giggle about peoples ideas of people on a hunt.. You have to be very fit to do a days hunting whether it be fox or drag.. X


----------



## JANICE199

*


momentofmadness said:



So if the fox killed for food.. why did it not take the rabbit and the geese?

Why when a fox gets into a chicken run does it kill everything?

Click to expand...

"They don't. However, when the opportunity arises, foxes kill surplus prey even if they are not hungry and cache (bury) it for later use. This is a very sensible strategy in the wild, since there are likely to be some days when hunting is a lot less successful, and so the fox can eat the prey killed earlier. However, in an unnatural situation such as in a hen house, where the prey cannot escape, this behaviour, called "surplus killing", leads to the fox killing far more prey than it could ever consume."
The fox website | FAQs | Problems in urban areas*


----------



## Natik

momentofmadness said:


> My mates rabbit was in a cage.. in the town..
> 
> My cat.. we found dead at the end of the garden.. I used to live with 30 acres behind my house... She had bite marks in her neck..
> My next door neighbours cat found at the end of the garden.. Dead went for a post mortem.. Vet said she had been bitten through to her lungs painful death..
> 
> My mates geese on his small holding fenced in.. obviously not adequate.
> 
> I understand that people choose to live in the country must do things to prevent these situ's from happening... But my mates rabbit? and mine and my neighbours cats?


we all know that when we let our cats out that there is a big chance they will never come back, be it they fall prey to other animals or get hit by a car etc

I dont know what type of cage or fencing it was but obviously not secure enough.


----------



## momentofmadness

Robynkeating said:


> even if you fo fence them in properly the foxes can still get them, same as the newborn lambs, think how many lambs the farmers loose each spring because they are too defenseless to stop the foxes getting them. an estimated 20% of all foxes that die each year are killed on the roads compared to a 5-10% of foxes killed before the ban. Also before we started drag hunting, hunting is the only way of natural eradication for foxes. Only the weak, the dying or diseased foxes died. Every other method of control can and does occasionally leave foxes damaged and suffering. Hunted foxes are either killed outright or left to escape unhurt. And hunting kills the weaker, the slower, the infirm and the unfit. Hunting is the only means of fox control that leaves the vixen to raise her cubs unmolested during the spring and summer. Hunting is the only means of control carried out by people committed not to eradicating the fox, but to preserving a balanced population of these remarkable animals in the British countryside.


Many people will argue on here about this...


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> "They don't. However, when the opportunity arises, foxes kill surplus prey even if they are not hungry and cache (bury) it for later use. This is a very sensible strategy in the wild, since there are likely to be some days when hunting is a lot less successful, and so the fox can eat the prey killed earlier. However, in an unnatural situation such as in a hen house, where the prey cannot escape, this behaviour, called "surplus killing", leads to the fox killing far more prey than it could ever consume."
> The fox website | FAQs | Problems in urban areas*


And possibly this is either to shut the rest of the chicks up... or the fox just got blood thirsty.. Or was having a right old time chasing these chicks about in this small space knowing only he can win!


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Makes me giggle about peoples ideas of people on a hunt.. You have to be very fit to do a days hunting whether it be fox or drag.. X


Fit? really fit for what? KILLING


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Fit? really fit for what? KILLING


You have to be fit to sit on a horse all day... 
Really no need to get so angry..

I have never said I am for..... or against.. LOL


----------



## JANICE199

Robynkeating said:


> even if you fo fence them in properly the foxes can still get them, same as the newborn lambs, think how many lambs the farmers loose each spring because they are too defenseless to stop the foxes getting them. an estimated 20% of all foxes that die each year are killed on the roads compared to a 5-10% of foxes killed before the ban. Also before we started drag hunting, hunting is the only way of natural eradication for foxes. Only the weak, the dying or diseased foxes died. Every other method of control can and does occasionally leave foxes damaged and suffering. Hunted foxes are either killed outright or left to escape unhurt. And hunting kills the weaker, the slower, the infirm and the unfit. Hunting is the only means of fox control that leaves the vixen to raise her cubs unmolested during the spring and summer. Hunting is the only means of control carried out by people committed not to eradicating the fox, but to preserving a balanced population of these remarkable animals in the British countryside.


*That statement is utter rubbish and untrue.Another thing,foxes don't need controling if they did then please explain why the need for artificial breeding dens?*


----------



## Guest

Natik said:


> we all know that when we let our cats out that there is a big chance they will never come back, be it they fall prey to other animals or get hit by a car etc
> 
> I dont know what type of cage or fencing it was but obviously not secure enough.


In all fairness Natik when I was a child we lived in the middle of nowhere! The farmhouse next to us had a large chicken house at the rear of our bugalow (I was allowed to help collect the eggs at the weekend) - totally wooden - and raised of the ground - it housed thirty chickens - Obviously as a child It would be difficult for me to remember the details as to how secure that hen house was - but the fox got in there.

also very very recently my friend Sallyann who has the egglet took her chooks out of their because her mum was moaning and that it were cruel and put them into her old chicken run - that very first night BOTH were killed - she blames herself and was very upset, she lives on a large housing estate.

A reminder to all to use FOX PROOF wire and dig down - I think 8" because if Mr fox in hungry he will go to great lenghts to get in anywhere!


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

momentofmadness and Robynkeating - everything you are saying has been argued before in this thread. read the last 117 pages and then come back and tell me something justifiable that hasn't been said before


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> In all fairness Natik when I was a child we lived in the middle of nowhere! The farmhouse next to us had a large chicken house at the rear of our bugalow (I was allowed to help collect the eggs at the weekend) - totally wooden - and raised of the ground - it housed thirty chickens - Obviously as a child It would be difficult for me to remember the details as to how secure that hen house was - but the fox got in there.
> 
> also very very recently my friend Sallyann who has the egglet took her chooks out of their because her mum was moaning and that it were cruel and put them into her old chicken run - that very first night BOTH were killed - she blames herself and was very upset, she lives on a large housing estate.
> 
> A reminder to all to use FOX PROOF wire and dig down - I think 8" because if Mr fox in hungry he will go to great lenghts to get in anywhere!


Yep dig down and cement it in...


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> You have to be fit to sit on a horse all day...
> Really no need to get so angry..
> 
> I have never said I am for..... or against.. LOL


Did'nt know I was "angry" just stating a TRUE fact.


----------



## momentofmadness

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> momentofmadness and Robynkeating - everything you are saying has been argued before in this thread. read the last 117 pages and then come back and tell me something justifiable that hasn't been said before


Fuzz bugs.. This thread has been discussed many many times read my threads. Im not arguing, like I have previously said I have neither said I am for or against so get ya neck back in..


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> "They don't. However, when the opportunity arises, foxes kill surplus prey even if they are not hungry and cache (bury) it for later use. This is a very sensible strategy in the wild, since there are likely to be some days when hunting is a lot less successful, and so the fox can eat the prey killed earlier. However, in an unnatural situation such as in a hen house, where the prey cannot escape, this behaviour, called "surplus killing", leads to the fox killing far more prey than it could ever consume."
> The fox website | FAQs | Problems in urban areas*


Thats what happened with us! I cannot remember if there were just one or two bodies missing - it were a long long while ago!


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Did'nt know I was "angry" just stating a TRUE fact.


You had an angry smiley.. it was scarey..


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Fuzz bugs.. This thread has been discussed many many times read my threads. Im not arguing, like I have previously said I have neither said I am for or against so get ya neck back in..


PErhaps it time you and I went for a wee trot! coz I can't see no one else taking up jogging:scared::scared::scared:


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> PErhaps it time you and I went for a wee trot! coz I can't see no one else taking up jogging:scared::scared::scared:


OK Tally Ho.... LOL

And never in all my years have I actually heard any hunts man shout Tally ho.. My words would be.. s*** &^%%$%$*$*%$%^$%(&$%(^%$ as ya set off.. LOL


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Fit? really fit for what? KILLING


fit to detatch yourself from the computer screen and go outside for the day following your country pursuits! in my case walking the hounds!


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

momentofmadness said:


> Fuzz bugs.. This thread has been discussed many many times read my threads. Im not arguing, like I have previously said I have neither said I am for or against so get ya neck back in..


Sorry? I didn't realise my neck was out :lol:. I know this topic has been discussed many times but i'm talking about this thread. Everything yous are saying has been said before in this thread and there have been some pretty amazing counter arguments. You said you havent read the thread so maybe you should and then come back and see what you can bring to the table


----------



## Natik

DoubleTrouble said:


> In all fairness Natik when I was a child we lived in the middle of nowhere! The farmhouse next to us had a large chicken house at the rear of our bugalow (I was allowed to help collect the eggs at the weekend) - totally wooden - and raised of the ground - it housed thirty chickens - Obviously as a child It would be difficult for me to remember the details as to how secure that hen house was - but the fox got in there.
> 
> also very very recently my friend Sallyann who has the egglet took her chooks out of their because her mum was moaning and that it were cruel and put them into her old chicken run - that very first night BOTH were killed - she blames herself and was very upset, she lives on a large housing estate.
> 
> A reminder to all to use FOX PROOF wire and dig down - I think 8" because if Mr fox in hungry he will go to great lenghts to get in anywhere!


there are lots of tipps online how to secure a chicken coop properly and there might be still a tiny chance the fox will get to the chickens but im afraid thats a risk i would have to accept.

Just like i would have to accept that if i decide to let my cat out it might be run over.

It still wouldnt make me hate the fox, i understand why he does what he does, and i would try my best to prevent it in the future agin, but definitly not by supporting the fox being ripped apart in a barbaric way.


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> fit to detatch yourself from the computer screen and go outside for the day following your country pursuits! in my case walking the hounds!


OMG:scared::scared::scared: just relized what I just put! I don't have hounds! but we often call em hounds! OH will say sometime we taking these hounds out then!:scared::scared::scared:
And NO! I don't fox hunt in any way shape or form
Me and my gob! was just trying to enlighten it


----------



## momentofmadness

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Sorry? I didn't realise my neck was out :lol:. I know this topic has been discussed many times but i'm talking about this thread. Everything yous are saying has been said before in this thread and there have been some pretty amazing counter arguments. You said you havent read the thread so maybe you should and then come back and see what you can bring to the table


Well I am afraid even if I read the whole thread I wont be able to bring anything to the table.. (oh my gawd nearly thru a joke in there) And the reason being is.. the solution... we have many different ideas.. we will never agree.. and nothing will ever be securely done about it.. The reason.. there isn't enough bodies to govern it.. 

Now Im going hunting.... Im gonna have a bath and hunt the soap out the bubbles.. a gawd help that soap if I catch it.. lol cause its gonna get squished to death..


----------



## bellathemog

QUOTE=momentofmadness;2074272]You had an angry smiley.. it was scarey.. [/QUOTE]

If a smiley upsets you that much have these

:001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:[


----------



## Guest

Natik said:


> there are lots of tipps online how to secure a chicken coop properly and there might be still a tiny chance the fox will get to the chickens but im afraid thats a risk i would have to accept.
> 
> Just like i would have to accept that if i decide to let my cat out it might be run over.
> 
> It still wouldnt make me hate the fox, i understand why he does what he does, and i would try my best to prevent it in the future agin, but definitly not by supporting the fox being ripped apart in a barbaric way.


Natik! I AGREE with you 100% - I will be be the first to admit that I was brought up to both fear and hate Mr Fox, but I will be the first to admit that fox hunting is barbaric and belongs and should have stayed in the old ages! I have it on a par with illegal dog fightng!

but how any why some are against people still enjoying sport with their dogs and persueing em for it is beyond me - I am referring to drag hunting is beyond me! unless of course there is summat here that I have not read ! in which case feel free to point me in the direction!


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> QUOTE=momentofmadness;2074272]You had an angry smiley.. it was scarey..


If a smiley upsets you that much have these

:001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:[[/QUOTE]

Oh no... get this.... Tally Ho :ciappa:


----------



## bellathemog

I think we need a fox smiley on this site for next yrs thread:thumbup:


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> I think we need a fox smiley on this site for next yrs thread:thumbup:


Cause you know what.. this thread will come up again next year..  Its a christmas thing.. even though the hunting starts in September and it is BANNED!

Thats why we drag hunt these days... Chasing smelly feet..


----------



## Robynkeating

what is left of the english heritage? 

nothing because all of the imigrants, etc have taken over our country. Hunting in my eyes and many others people who i know is the only way to keep the english heritage alive. there is nothing british about britain anymore, it is overrun with indian takeaways, mosques, etc.

Anyone who can tell me what is left of our british culture apart from hunting and shooting go ahead and tell me, and i am not being racist i am clearly stating my views.


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Cause you know what.. this thread will come up again next year..  Its a christmas thing.. even though the hunting starts in September and it is BANNED!
> 
> Thats why we drag hunt these days... Chasing smelly feet..


T'was the tradition boxing days hunts that brought em out mate! The couch potatoes had to do summat to shift the excess pounds following the copious amounts of Turkey they ate!  agggh! they ATE Turkey!:scared::scared::scared:


----------



## Natik

bellathemog said:


> I think we need a fox smiley on this site for next yrs thread:thumbup:










like this one


----------



## bellathemog

Robynkeating said:


> what is left of the english heritage?
> 
> nothing because all of the imigrants, etc have taken over our country. Hunting in my eyes and many others people who i know is the only way to keep the english heritage alive. there is nothing british about britain anymore, it is overrun with indian takeaways, mosques, etc.
> 
> Anyone who can tell me what is left of our british culture apart from hunting and shooting go ahead and tell me, and i am not being racist i am clearly stating my views.


LOL

deck chairs and hankies on ya head next to your beach hut eating a 99

Who much "BRITISH" can ONE get


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Robynkeating said:


> what is left of the english heritage?
> 
> nothing because all of the imigrants, etc have taken over our country. Hunting in my eyes and many others people who i know is the only way to keep the english heritage alive. there is nothing british about britain anymore, it is overrun with indian takeaways, mosques, etc.
> 
> Anyone who can tell me what is left of our british culture apart from hunting and shooting go ahead and tell me, and i am not being racist i am clearly stating my views.


Seriously READ THE THREAD - this has already been covered :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## bellathemog

Natik said:


> like this one


Bless! I'm loving that


----------



## Guest

Robynkeating said:


> what is left of the english heritage?
> 
> nothing because all of the imigrants, etc have taken over our country. Hunting in my eyes and many others people who i know is the only way to keep the english heritage alive. there is nothing british about britain anymore, it is overrun with indian takeaways, mosques, etc.
> 
> Anyone who can tell me what is left of our british culture apart from hunting and shooting go ahead and tell me, and i am not being racist i am clearly stating my views.


They are stealing our fish out of our lakes too! our water baliffs have been very very busy this year!


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> T'was the tradition boxing days hunts that brought em out mate! The couch potatoes had to do summat to shift the excess pounds following the copious amounts of Turkey they ate!  agggh! they ATE Turkey!:scared::scared::scared:


Wonder why people only see hunting as a boxing day thing..

But you seriously have to be fit to go on a hunt.. cause if your not.. in the first five mins of galloping you get such cramp and a stitch..lol And gawd if you dont wear the righ Bra.. you could have two black eyes as well.. LMAO :lol:


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> LOL
> 
> deck chairs and hankies on ya head next to your beach hut eating a 99
> 
> Who much "BRITISH" can ONE get


Fish and chips & roast beef and yorky pudding are no longer head the great british food league!
T'is now vindaloo or summat equally revolting!


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Bless! I'm loving that


I couldn't find one.. grrrr


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Wonder why people only see hunting as a boxing day thing..
> 
> But you seriously have to be fit to go on a hunt.. cause if your not.. in the first five mins of galloping you get such cramp and a stitch..lol And gawd if you dont wear the righ Bra.. you could have two black eyes as well.. LMAO :lol:


I weren't on about the hunt being fit! I were onabout the couch potatoes that sit around moaning about it then one day a year - normally boxing day - go out and protest! When they have stuffed themselves with Turkeys!
Poor Turkeys! they should have fed em to Mr Fox!


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> I weren't on about the hunt being fit! I were onabout the couch potatoes that sit around moaning about it then one day a year - normally boxing day - go out and protest! When they have stuffed themselves with Turkeys!
> Poor Turkeys! they should have fed em to Mr Fox!


You know what DT.. the farm next to e mums ya can see em being reared fattened up. ya can see em through the windows of the barn they are raised in.. then you see em all hanging with feather upside down... then ya see em hanging feather less upside down.. then a big lorry comes.. infact lots of big lorries and they get loaded up.... gone.... And did these guys know when they were being fed so wel what was going to happen to then.. Nope they didn't, they thought it was the good of man to feed them and look after their every need... Little did they know they would be stunned and stripped and put in the oven and then eaten by man on christmas day.... But you know what.. its ok.. cause its tradition..


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Fish and chips & roast beef and yorky pudding are no longer head the great british food league!
> T'is now vindaloo or summat equally revolting!


Do you know what in our local Indian they were open Christmas day, serving an ( and I quote ) Indian food in a English World.

They had

Curried Turkey
Bombay roasted spuds
etc etc

But inc a Christmas pudding filled with Indian spice


----------



## snoopydo

DoubleTrouble said:


> And!....................they could always lie you know ---------- or totally ignore the thread and leave it all pink and fluffy!


I was only answering momentofmadness's Question.


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> My mates rabbit was in a cage.. in the town..
> 
> My cat.. we found dead at the end of the garden.. I used to live with 30 acres behind my house... She had bite marks in her neck..
> My next door neighbours cat found at the end of the garden.. Dead went for a post mortem.. Vet said she had been bitten through to her lungs painful death..
> 
> My mates geese on his small holding fenced in.. obviously not adequate.
> 
> I understand that people choose to live in the country must do things to prevent these situ's from happening... But my mates rabbit? and mine and my neighbours cats?


my huskies would have done exactly the same....its the nature of the animal but at least the fox given the chance would have come back to cache what was killed..unlike my dogs, fowl and small pets should always be kept secure its the owners responsibilty to keep them safe.

and its very rare for a fox to kill a cat, cats are of a similar size and foxes wont usually risk injury....if the killings wernt witnessed i'd put my money on a dog.


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> my huskies would have done exactly the same....its the nature of the animal but at least the fox given the chance would have come back to cache what was killed..unlike my dogs, fowl and small pets should always be kept secure its the owners responsibilty to keep them safe.
> 
> and its very rare for a fox to kill a cat, cats are of a similar size and foxes wont usually risk injury....if the killings wernt witnessed i'd put my money on a dog.


In all seriousness... I know it wasn't our dog.. and I know it wasn't next doors.. we were the only dog owners.... The field isn't commonly used... Not seen any strays.. only the fox.... 
And I know.. if my dogs had the chance to chase/kill a cat... rat .... fox.... squirrel... in fact any furry that moved quick and caught there eye.. i reckon they would and if caught they would kill..


----------



## cool-jim

From what I've seen and researched, the foxhounds kill as many if not more cats and small dogs than foxes do. But only the fox seems to get blamed. The foxhounds are always innocent as its "their natural instinct". At least a foxes natural instinct is natural and not forced into it by humans.


----------



## poohdog

noushka05 said:


> my huskies would have done exactly the same....its the nature of the animal but at least the fox given the chance would have come back to cache what was killed..unlike my dogs, fowl and small pets should always be kept secure its the owners responsibilty to keep them safe.
> 
> and its very rare for a fox to kill a cat, cats are of a similar size and foxes wont usually risk injury....if the killings wernt witnessed i'd put my money on a dog.


Many many years ago I read a book about naturalists in the Antarctic studying penguins.
One of their huskies,called Dustbin..(Don't ask) got loose one night and slaughtered over 300 penguins in the rookery.No hoarding behaviour there...just total bloodlust.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

this is a fox that's made itself at home where my dad works


----------



## Spellweaver

Robynkeating said:


> exactly, we get called barbaric and red faced toffs, however many people on here will have bought a dog or a puppy from a puppy farm, you may all buy 2 for £5 chickens, and you say that we who hunt are cruel ? :confused1:


As has been said several times on this thread, the one act of cruelty does not excuse the other. ANY act of cruelty towards ANY animal is wrong. And if, "well, other things are cruel too, ner ner ner" is your best defence for foxes being ripped to shreds and fox hounds being cruelly punished and then shot, then you really have no defence at all.


----------



## cool-jim

Time to even the odds.


----------



## hawksport

cool-jim said:


> Time to even the odds.


and Up The Anti


----------



## bellathemog

smudge2009 said:


> this is a fox that's made itself at home where my dad works


What a sweet looking fox

Hope they are looking after him well


----------



## Spellweaver

My oh my, you have been given the standard rote of "answers"f rom someone at your hunt, haven't you? Pity it's all a load of codswallop! For example:



Robynkeating said:


> an estimated 20% of all foxes that die each year are killed on the roads


if road kills aco**** for 20% of fox deaths, doesn't that somehwat disprove the need for hunting at all?



Robynkeating said:


> hunting is the only way of natural eradication for foxes.


There is nothing natural about being chased to exhaustion and then being ripped to shreds



Robynkeating said:


> Only the weak, the dying or diseased foxes died. And hunting kills the weaker, the slower, the infirm and the unfit.


Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe your first statement? Hounds will follow a scent, chase a fox to exhaustion and then rip it to shreds whatever its state of health. The only difference age and infirmity makes is that the chase is not as long with an older fox.



Robynkeating said:


> Hunting is the only means of fox control that leaves the vixen to raise her cubs unmolested during the spring and summer. Hunted foxes are either killed outright or left to escape unhurt.


Lies. There are many videos showing dens being blocked up so the fox cannot escape. Likewise, there are many videos of huntsmen taking the cubs and either throw them to the hounds or club to death.



Robynkeating said:


> Every other method of control can and does occasionally leave foxes damaged and suffering.


Wrong. If control is needed at all - which in itself is a debateable point - cage traps and shooting is the most humane way to do it. As for leaving a fox damaged and suffereing - how the heck do you think anything can be worse then being ripped to pieces whilst you are still alive?



Robynkeating said:


> Hunting is the only means of control carried out by people committed not to eradicating the fox, but to preserving a balanced population of these remarkable animals in the British countryside.


I'd actually laugh at this if it were not so horrendous. The only reason they want a population preserved is so they can continue to slake their blood lust.


----------



## Amethyst

cool-jim said:


> From what I've seen and researched, the foxhounds kill as many if not more cats and small dogs than foxes do. But only the fox seems to get blamed. The foxhounds are always innocent as its "their natural instinct". At least a foxes natural instinct is natural and not forced into it by humans.


Yes indeed, some member claimed that the tiny little pet Yorkie ripped apart by Foxhounds on my sisiter's caravan site was a one of 

Yeah right, the link below is says otherwise and I think we all have seen articles about hounds killing pets in papers, unless you are pro hunting of course 

Pet Killers: The True Face of Foxhunting - Pet Killers

We have foxes in our town/area, I've lived here twenty years and never heard of anyone claiming thier cats have been killed by one, by out of control pet dogs yes, foxes no.


----------



## bellathemog

Spellweaver said:


> My oh my, you have been given the standard rote of "answers"f rom someone at your hunt, haven't you? Pity it's all a load of codswallop! For example:
> 
> if road kills aco**** for 20% of fox deaths, doesn't that somehwat disprove the need for hunting at all?
> 
> There is nothing natural about being chased to exhaustion and then being ripped to shreds
> 
> Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe your first statement? Hounds will follow a scent, chase a fox to exhaustion and then rip it to shreds whatever its state of health. The only difference age and infirmity makes is that the chase is not as long with an older fox.
> 
> Lies. There are many videos showing dens being blocked up so the fox cannot escape. Likewise, there are many videos of huntsmen taking the cubs and either throw them to the hounds or club to death.
> 
> Wrong. If control is needed at all - which in itself is a debateable point - cage traps and shooting is the most humane way to do it. As for leaving a fox damaged and suffereing - how the heck do you think anything can be worse then being ripped to pieces whilst you are still alive?
> 
> I'd actually laugh at this if it were not so horrendous. The only reason they want a population preserved is so they can continue to slake their blood lust.


Well said.


----------



## JANICE199

*After all the posts on here i still cannot find 1 good reason given for fox hunting.Now the anti fox hunters can at least come up with some good honest answers.:lol:*


----------



## Amethyst

MissShelley said:


> Agreed... All it's done is reinforce my beliefs in why it's wrong... And as for questions not being answered, I can relate to that! I asked for a response when a poster said that the hounds got 'punished' if they outed a fox on a drag... I wanted to know what kind of punishment they recieved  Which also made me think about the treatment of the hounds, it seems to me it's not just the fox that is abused
> 
> Still waiting.......


And yes, asked exactly the same, more than once like yourself and .... silence 

Still no nice pics of retired Foxhounds, adopted by hunt followers, in loving forever family homes by the fire either. Why? Because it doesn't happen?

I think we all know what really happens to the hounds. We've seen the horrific pictures of them with a gun to their head and bowels hanging out after their killing, if this is unknown in so many hunts, where are these "invisible" hounds that go off to live idyllic lives as family pets in hunting homes :confused1:


----------



## smudgiesmummy

JANICE199 said:


> *After all the posts on here i still cannot find 1 good reason given for fox hunting.Now the anti fox hunters can at least come up with some good honest answers.:lol:*


totally agree with you janice , im amazed there wasnt a poll put up with this topic , be interesting what the results would be


----------



## thatspicegirl

First of all, I don't live in the UK, so I don't entirely know all the facts behind the fox hunt... but I lived in the USA my entire life (New York, specifically), and hunters were allowed to hunt deer to control the overwhelming deer population at certain times of the year... However, it didn't involve running down the deer until they were exhausted, or allowing dogs to rip them to shreds. They simply shot them point blank, and the deer were later used for meat. 

That sounds a little more humane to me than what I've heard about the fox hunting.


----------



## JANICE199

smudge2009 said:


> totally agree with you janice , im amazed there wasnt a poll put up with this topic , be interesting what the results would be


*I'm not suprised,those infavour of blood sport will always find something to hide behind.*


----------



## smudgiesmummy

bellathemog said:


> Well said.





Spellweaver said:


> My oh my, you have been given the standard rote of "answers"f rom someone at your hunt, haven't you? Pity it's all a load of codswallop! For example:
> 
> if road kills aco**** for 20% of fox deaths, doesn't that somehwat disprove the need for hunting at all?
> 
> There is nothing natural about being chased to exhaustion and then being ripped to shreds
> 
> Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe your first statement? Hounds will follow a scent, chase a fox to exhaustion and then rip it to shreds whatever its state of health. The only difference age and infirmity makes is that the chase is not as long with an older fox.
> 
> Lies. There are many videos showing dens being blocked up so the fox cannot escape. Likewise, there are many videos of huntsmen taking the cubs and either throw them to the hounds or club to death.
> 
> Wrong. If control is needed at all - which in itself is a debateable point - cage traps and shooting is the most humane way to do it. As for leaving a fox damaged and suffereing - how the heck do you think anything can be worse then being ripped to pieces whilst you are still alive?
> 
> I'd actually laugh at this if it were not so horrendous. The only reason they want a population preserved is so they can continue to slake their blood lust.


agree also


----------



## Guest

WEll I have JUST ask my other half what they do to the hounds when they are redundant! and his exact words were! he does not know now - BUT they used to feed em to the pack!!


----------



## smudgiesmummy

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm not suprised,those infavour of blood sport will always find something to hide behind.*


wont they just


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> WEll I have JUST ask my other half what they do to the hounds when they are redundant! and his exact words were! he does not know now - BUT they used to feed em to the pack!!


:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:


----------



## Spellweaver

Robynkeating said:


> what is left of the english heritage?
> 
> nothing because all of the imigrants, etc have taken over our country. Hunting in my eyes and many others people who i know is the only way to keep the english heritage alive. there is nothing british about britain anymore, it is overrun with indian takeaways, mosques, etc.
> 
> Anyone who can tell me what is left of our british culture apart from hunting and shooting go ahead and tell me, and i am not being racist i am clearly stating my views.


You are indeed stating your views - your *extremely racist *views 

What is left of our British culture? A hundred million things - but a few which pertain particularly to the countryside way of life are:

agricultural fairs
steam rallies
morris dancing
craft fairs
stately homes
well dressing
maypole dancing
historical re-enactments
village fetes and fayres
fell running
sheep dog trials
field work trials
travelling fairs such as Hull fair and Nottingham goose fair

None of which, unlike fox hunting, involve any harm to any animal whatsoever. These were just off the top of my head and there's probably loads more - so that's blown your racist argument sky high! :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Amethyst

Here is how one hunt dealt with an "erring" hound that they allowed to become dangerously out of control. No surprises, it involves a bullet 

October 1994: York and Ainsty South Foxhounds Attack Pet Dogs
Hounds from the York and Ainsty South Hunt attacked three dogs being walked by their owner in Yorkshire countryside. One dog was left bleeding and badly bruised after being attacked by three hounds. It took ten minutes for hunt officials to bring the pack under control. The hunt dealt with the situation by shooting the lead dog and parading its body before local television cameras with a hunt official flippantly explaining that 'There's the hound that did the damage and as you can see he'll never do it again.' (Source: Wildlife Guardian, Winter 1994/95)

Nice eh?


----------



## Amethyst

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm not suprised,those infavour of blood sport will always find something to hide behind.*


And it's always the same old chestnuts of an excuse they trot out


----------



## JANICE199

Robynkeating said:


> what is left of the english heritage?
> 
> nothing because all of the imigrants, etc have taken over our country. Hunting in my eyes and many others people who i know is the only way to keep the english heritage alive. there is nothing british about britain anymore, it is overrun with indian takeaways, mosques, etc.
> 
> Anyone who can tell me what is left of our british culture apart from hunting and shooting go ahead and tell me, and i am not being racist i am clearly stating my views.


*LMFAO. i might moan about imigration but fox hunting has NOTHING to do with imigration.:lol::lol::lol:*


----------



## bellathemog

Amethyst said:


> Here is how one hunt dealt with an "erring" hound that they allowed to become dangerously out of control. No surprises, it involves a bullet
> 
> October 1994: York and Ainsty South Foxhounds Attack Pet Dogs
> Hounds from the York and Ainsty South Hunt attacked three dogs being walked by their owner in Yorkshire countryside. One dog was left bleeding and badly bruised after being attacked by three hounds. It took ten minutes for hunt officials to bring the pack under control. The hunt dealt with the situation by shooting the lead dog and parading its body before local television cameras with a hunt official flippantly explaining that 'There's the hound that did the damage and as you can see he'll never do it again.' (Source: Wildlife Guardian, Winter 1994/95)
> 
> Nice eh?


Sick ****ers. I'd of love to witnessed that, I'd turn the gun on him and say
" Oh he wont be riding in a hunt anymore"


----------



## snoopydo

JANICE199 said:


> *After all the posts on here i still cannot find 1 good reason given for fox hunting.Now the anti fox hunters can at least come up with some good honest answers.:lol:*


I For one have been waiting for Ages For answers...........Maybe They've not got any for us


----------



## Amethyst

bellathemog said:


> Sick ****ers. I'd of love to witnessed that, I'd turn the gun on him and say
> " Oh he wont be riding in a hunt anymore"


Tip of the iceberg unfortunately ...


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *LMFAO. i might moan about imigration but fox hunting has NOTHING to do with imigration.:lol::lol::lol:*


:thumbup::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Spellweaver

JANICE199 said:


> *LMFAO. i might moan about imigration but fox hunting has NOTHING to do with imigration.:lol::lol::lol:*


Heh heh - talk about using any old excuse, eh? Wonder what justification they'll come up with next? Hmmm, let's see, what's topical at the moment .......... ooh, I know, thousands of little children in third world countries would not be able to earn their pittance if they had to stop making the red coats ....... :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

So as I have previously said.. Who you on about who have said they are all for fox hunting.


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> And it's always the same old chestnuts of an excuse they trot out


how many times have we had this debate? The outome is always the same! There are them that disagree with fox hunting (the majority) And it's this lot that more agressive in my view! and most of em would sit on their jacksys and say sweet FA is they did not have a army of supporters behind em either!!

Have a good debate and air your views by all means! but don't deprive them that disagree with you of theirs!!! you may see it as cruel! I may see it as cruel! the whole world may agree but you wou't change it sat here bleating on about it! if you feel that strongly get out and do summat about it!! 
Armchair crusaders the lot of ya!

Now thats me done on this one!
Enjoy yourselves!


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> So as I have previously said.. Who you on about who have said they are all for fox hunting.


Should leave em to it mate! getting boring now!


----------



## snoopydo

Amethyst said:


> Here is how one hunt dealt with an "erring" hound that they allowed to become dangerously out of control. No surprises, it involves a bullet
> 
> October 1994: York and Ainsty South Foxhounds Attack Pet Dogs
> Hounds from the York and Ainsty South Hunt attacked three dogs being walked by their owner in Yorkshire countryside. One dog was left bleeding and badly bruised after being attacked by three hounds. It took ten minutes for hunt officials to bring the pack under control. The hunt dealt with the situation by shooting the lead dog and parading its body before local television cameras with a hunt official flippantly explaining that 'There's the hound that did the damage and as you can see he'll never do it again.' (Source: Wildlife Guardian, Winter 1994/95)
> 
> Nice eh?


WONDERFUL FOLK ARN'T THEY

Your Post sums up what I was Saying earlier.....

Thing is if the Hounds are 'Bred' to chase Foxes...You can't really blame/punish the Dog For chasing other Animals ... Doe's the Dog know the Difference between a Fox, Cat or other Animal? NO, It WILL chase and kill anything that runs..

What I mean is You can't Cheer/Reward the Dog for Chasing killing a Fox THEN on the other hand punish it for doing the same to some other Animal. Those Dogs must be so bloody confused and The Question of How much Control have they over the Dogs...If you read the link I put up about How many ''pets'' that have been killed it seems there's Very little or NO Control at all. VERY Irresponsible/Dangerous to have a pack of Uncontrollable Blood Thirsty Dogs running loose all over the countryside. I'm NOT Blaming the Dogs of Course They've been Conditioned by ''Humans''
__________________


----------



## thatspicegirl

Wow, well I had no idea the foxhounds ended up treated like THAT... thought the hunters/owners had more respect for them than that  

It all just seems severely messed up, the whole thing!


----------



## Guest

thatspicegirl said:


> Wow, well I had no idea the foxhounds ended up treated like THAT... thought the hunters/owners had more respect for them than that
> 
> It all just seems severely messed up, the whole thing!


Infortunately it is true! the hounds are NOT well kept nor cherished! it will be claimed that they are pack animals and not suitable for living in a house! Very sad!


----------



## Amethyst

DoubleTrouble said:


> how many times have we had this debate? The outome is always the same! There are them that disagree with fox hunting (the majority) And it's this lot that more agressive in my view! and most of em would sit on their jacksys and say sweet FA is they did not have a army of supporters behind em either!!
> 
> Have a good debate and air your views by all means! but don't deprive them that disagree with you of theirs!!! you may see it as cruel! I may see it as cruel! the whole world may agree but you wou't change it sat here bleating on about it! if you feel that strongly get out and do summat about it!!
> Armchair crusaders the lot of ya!
> 
> Now thats me done on this one!
> Enjoy yourselves!


Where did that come from :lol::lol::lol:

Talk about garbled post :confused1:


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Infortunately it is true! the hounds are NOT well kept nor cherished! it will be claimed that they are pack animals and not suitable for living in a house! Very sad!


Does anyone on here have an "ex" hound as a family pet?


----------



## shibby

DoubleTrouble said:


> Should leave em to it mate! getting boring now!


I only come on this thread for the entertainment value now, not being rude, but I agree, we all have opposing views and they're unlikely to change anytime soon, I'd drive myself potty if I continued with this debate


----------



## snoopydo

thatspicegirl said:


> Wow, well I had no idea the foxhounds ended up treated like THAT... thought the hunters/owners had more respect for them than that
> 
> It all just seems severely messed up, the whole thing!


This link Shows how messed up the Dogs end up..upsetting pictures but it's important to show people what REALLY Happens.

Fox Hunting News


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> What I mean is You can't Cheer/Reward the Dog for Chasing killing a Fox THEN on the other hand punish it for doing the same to some other Animal. Those Dogs must be so bloody confused and The Question of How much Control have they over the Dogs...If you read the link I put up about How many ''pets'' that have been killed it seems there's Very little or NO Control at all. VERY Irresponsible/Dangerous to have a pack of Uncontrollable Blood Thirsty Dogs running loose all over the countryside. I'm NOT Blaming the Dogs of Course They've been Conditioned by ''Humans''
> __________________


No I agree it isn't the hounds fault at all when they behave like this and it simply illustrates how little control the hunt people have over the dogs 

Most dogs won't kill another, but these hounds are going to be all hyped up when taken out hunting and their prey drive heightened, so while it's totally unacceptable, it's not surprising that they behave like this really.

As I said I have heard hounds out when in the holiday cottage and I took my dogs straight in, wasn't taking any chances, but why the **** should we have to be afraid like that.


----------



## Amethyst

bellathemog said:


> Does anyone on here have an "ex" hound as a family pet?


One member had one via the RSPCA but there has been no evidence that anyone else has, shame I'd love to see some happy endings


----------



## Spellweaver

shibby said:


> I only come on this thread for the entertainment value now, not being rude, but I agree, we all have opposing views and they're unlikely to change anytime soon, I'd drive myself potty if I continued with this debate


I know what you mean - I have been beating my head on the computer so many times it looks a bit like the one in Waterlilly's sig now! 

Seriously though, one or two of the younger ones have owned up to really re-examining their values in the light of what they have learned on here, which cannot be a bad thing.

And as this is an open forum, who knows how many non-members have read the posts, learned something they didn't know, and also re-examined their values.

We can but hope!


----------



## shibby

Spellweaver said:


> I know what you mean - I have been beating my head on the computer so many times it looks a bit like the one in Waterlilly's sig now!
> 
> Seriously though, one or two of the younger ones have owned up to really re-examining their values in the light of what they have learned on here, which cannot be a bad thing.
> 
> And as this is an open forum, who knows how many non-members have read the posts, learned something they didn't know, and also re-examined their values.
> 
> We can but hope!


Of course  I've appreciated the posts, I've actually learned some new things, chiefly from those anti-hunting. I've bookmarked some links posted too, so thanks for those! It's just best for me to take a backseat on this one  Blood pressure and what not...


----------



## bellathemog

Amethyst said:


> One member had one via the RSPCA but there has been no evidence that anyone else has, shame I'd love to see some happy endings


Just interested to find out where all these dogs go? I mean each "hunt group" has a fair few and reading posts/info on the net there are a fair few puppies

So where do they all go?

I'd like this question to go to the "hunters" on here.

So what is the "shelf" life of a pack hound? and what happens if they dont make the grade or indeed get to an age the "hunters" feel the dogs are past it.


----------



## Amethyst

Spellweaver said:


> Seriously though, one or two of the younger ones have owned up to really re-examining their values in the light of what they have learned on here, which cannot be a bad thing.
> 
> And as this is an open forum, who knows how many non-members have read the posts, learned something they didn't know, and also re-examined their values.
> 
> We can but hope!


So true and it's gained the League Against Cruel Sports a couple of new members :thumbup:


----------



## JJAK

Just thought id show you. 

This is 'dragon' retired fox hound in her home.


----------



## thatspicegirl

snoopydo said:


> This link Shows how messed up the Dogs end up..upsetting pictures but it's important to show people what REALLY Happens.
> 
> Fox Hunting News


Oh wow, look at this bit from that link:

_In December 2005 Kennel Huntsman Philip Simmonds was found guilty of animal cruelty. During his trial the court heard Simmons stitched a sixinch gaping wound on a beagle's leg without giving the dog a local anaesthetic - an operation that should only be performed by a vet in an emergency.

The court also heard that he caused another beagle unnecessary suffering by delaying having it put down when it was terminally ill with kidney failure and heart problems. Simmonds was also found guilty of causing suffering to a mink hound by failing to have it treated for chronic ear problems.

The hounds are not the only dogs to suffer as a result of hunting. Terriers which are used to locate and fight foxes underground can sustain horrendous injuries. And as the following quote shows from a Terrier Man forum, these dogs meet the same callous ending as hounds: "Had a fell terrier, was a nutter... i took a walk to the woods. only i returned.........sad but the only way i could resolve the issue."_

So much unnecessary cruelty. It's not even just the foxes who are suffering needlessly here. Those pictures made me so angry.

People can sugarcoat things however they want, call this stuff whatever they want... but I think at the end of the day, part of it has to do with sadism. They get some kind of enjoyment out of all this death and killing =/


----------



## cool-jim

I believe the figure quoted earlier in the thread was 3000 hounds a year, I may be mistaken. Well we've now accounted for 2 hounds.


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> Just thought id show you.
> 
> This is 'dragon' retired fox hound in her home.


Lovely, please post more pics, there must be so many of them you can share 

Anymore of "Dragon"


----------



## bellathemog

thatspicegirl said:


> People can sugarcoat things however they want, call this stuff whatever they want... but I think at the end of the day, part of it has to do with sadism. They get some kind of enjoyment out of all this death and killing =/


*WELL SAID*

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::


----------



## JJAK

the other 2 pics i have of dragon:


----------



## momentofmadness

You will probably find the hunt deal with them themselves.. as most will be unable to go into a home once they have retired...

And not all huntsman treat their animals badly..


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> the other 2 pics i have of dragon:


Thank you, more Fox Hounds in pet homes please 

As said, we have accounted for two :thumbup:


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> You will probably find the hunt deal with them themselves.. as most will be unable to go into a home once they have retired...
> 
> And not all huntsman treat their animals badly..


What do your mean "deal with them?"


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> You will probably find the hunt deal with them themselves..


In what way?


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> You will probably find the hunt deal with them themselves.. as most will be unable to go into a home once they have retired...
> 
> And not all huntsman treat their animals badly..


Explains "Deals with them" can you please


----------



## bellathemog

Amethyst said:


> What do your mean "deal with them?"





cool-jim said:


> In what way?


Thats three of us typed that within 30 secs


----------



## momentofmadness

Well I can only imagine they would euthanise them via the vet they use...

The dogs aren't particularly socialised so many a hunt probably wouldn't want to take the risk at re homing them.. x


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Thats three of us typed that within 30 secs


MMM I did have the feeling I had been pounced on.. :lol:


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> What do your mean "deal with them?"





cool-jim said:


> In what way?





bellathemog said:


> Explains "Deals with them" can you please





bellathemog said:


> Thats three of us typed that within 30 secs


try googling it!


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> Well I can only imagine they would euthanise them via the vet they use...
> 
> The dogs aren't particularly socialised so many a hunt probably wouldn't want to take the risk at re homing them.. x


Hardly fair on a still middle aged working animal.


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> Well I can only imagine they would euthanise them via the vet they use...
> 
> The dogs aren't particularly socialised so many a hunt probably wouldn't want to take the risk at re homing them.. x


So they are killed. I appreciate your honesty saying you don't know what really happens ...

Some hunt supporters claim they all go off to new homes with hunt supporters, it's very difficult to get a real answer :confused1:


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> You will probably find the hunt deal with them themselves.. as most will be unable to go into a home once they have retired...
> 
> And not all huntsman treat their animals badly..


Sadly mate you and I both either know or at least suspect that not many (if any) will end up at the vets!


----------



## JJAK

This is rogue, 
Hes about 9/10 years old


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> So they are killed. I appreciate your honesty saying you don't know what really happens ...
> 
> Some hunt supporters claim they all go off to new homes with hunt supporters, it's very difficult to get a real answer :confused1:


This refers to the hunts iv delt with. 
Obviously i cant answer for all hunts as they all do things differently.


----------



## Guest

this is dodger he never gets cought:thumbup:


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> This is rogue,
> Hes about 9/10 years old


Is it ALL of your hounds that go onto homes, or only those that will or may be useful in future breeding plans? Genuine question, seriously, while I have no respect for people who hunt ... I would respect the fact that they ensured that all the hounds no longer able or willing to hunt are retired to indoor lifetime pet homes.

Loving the pics, anymore to share?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Wow, I'm amazed how one sided people can be. So, although there's a lot of people who enjoy drag hunting, with lovely hounds that are cared for as working dogs, they're all condemned because of the actions of others.

Now let's see, who on this thread who eats meat and is anti hunting, can say they don't knowingly support animal cruelty through their lifestyle? A saying about throwing stones springs to mind. And (before I get pounced on by Natik) I'm not referring to all those who are anti hunting, but there will be some who don't shop ethically 

I posted earlier about actual fox hunting with horse and hounds, there are times it isn't feasible to shoot a fox, and whilst it's not a nice idea that any animal dies, if foxes become a problem, they do need to be controlled. They can and do get through fences, including electrified fences. I'm not personally pro fox hunting, but neither am I against it, but I do think that anyone involved with hunting should abide by the law, and try their utmost to ensure they drag hunt effectively, which isn't always 100% straight forward.

It was posted early on in the thread, if there's an issue with dog welfare, and people are that concerned about animals being mistreated, banning ownership of dogs as pets would make more difference overall, here's one bit of evidence for you....

WSBTR A day in the life of

Unfortunately, Patchy's story isn't a one off, it happens all the time, people are cruel to animals in all walks of life. I've said it before and I will always push the view for hunting and shooting people, just because they kill an animal, does not mean they don't admire and respect that animal. I love seeing wild animals, I also love eating pheasant, partridge, duck, goose, rabbit, pigeon, etc, I think it tastes a lot better than anything pumped full of hormones, raised in cruel conditions and slaughtered in fear.


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Now let's see, who on this thread who eats meat and is anti hunting, can say they don't knowingly support animal cruelty through their lifestyle? A saying about throwing stones springs to mind.


Didn't want to read and move on, but seriously, this has already been covered paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages ago 

Read back perhaps?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Didn't want to read and move on, but seriously, this has already been covered paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages ago
> 
> Read back perhaps?


It might have, but I know at least one person very vociferous in their anti fox hunting on this thread, posted on another that they bought two for a fiver chickens 

Been too busy trying to pull a Mod to read it all that thoroughly anyway :lol:


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> Is it ALL of your hounds that go onto homes, or only those that will or may be useful in future breeding plans? Genuine question, seriously, while I have no respect for people who hunt ... I would respect the fact that they ensured that all the hounds no longer able or willing to hunt are retired to indoor lifetime pet homes.
> 
> Loving the pics, anymore to share?


From what i know, and have seen,
Id say 80% of the hounds are retired to indoor homes (as i say, the hunts i have delt with) Some are kept at the kennels still however dont hunt and are kept in separate kennels to the working dogs. 
Once they stop hunting they arnt used in future breeding plans (however ill need to double check on this one!) and those that are either seriously ill are put to sleep (the 3 occasions iv seen this happen theyve all been done by a vet however 2 of those dogs had serious injurys too!)...but not fed to the remaining hounds!!! As has been said the huntsman will collect other peoples dead stock for hound food!


----------



## bellathemog

JJAK said:


> From what i know, and have seen,
> Id say 80% of the hounds are retired to indoor homes (as i say, the hunts i have delt with) Some are kept at the kennels still however dont hunt and are kept in separate kennels to the working dogs.
> Once they stop hunting they arnt used in future breeding plans (however ill need to double check on this one!) and those that are either seriously ill are put to sleep (the 3 occasions iv seen this happen theyve all been done by a vet however 2 of those dogs had serious injurys too!)...but not fed to the remaining hounds!!! As has been said the huntsman will collect other peoples dead stock for hound food!


How long is the "shelf" life of a hound as a hunting dog.


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Thats three of us typed that within 30 secs


MMM I did have the feeling I had been pounced on.. :lol:


----------



## Amethyst

JJAK said:


> From what i know, and have seen,
> Id say 80% of the hounds are retired to indoor homes (as i say, the hunts i have delt with) Some are kept at the kennels still however dont hunt and are kept in separate kennels to the working dogs.
> Once they stop hunting they arnt used in future breeding plans (however ill need to double check on this one!) and those that are either seriously ill are put to sleep (the 3 occasions iv seen this happen theyve all been done by a vet however 2 of those dogs had serious injurys too!)...but not fed to the remaining hounds!!! As has been said the huntsman will collect other peoples dead stock for hound food!


Thank you for that reply, good to have someone who will at least try and explain their personal experience. What you speak of must refer to the Quorn hounds kennels?


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, I'm amazed how one sided people can be. So, although there's a lot of people who enjoy drag hunting, with lovely hounds that are cared for as working dogs, they're all condemned because of the actions of others.
> 
> Now let's see, who on this thread who eats meat and is anti hunting, can say they don't knowingly support animal cruelty through their lifestyle? A saying about throwing stones springs to mind. And (before I get pounced on by Natik) I'm not referring to all those who are anti hunting, but there will be some who don't shop ethically
> 
> I posted earlier about actual fox hunting with horse and hounds, there are times it isn't feasible to shoot a fox, and whilst it's not a nice idea that any animal dies, if foxes become a problem, they do need to be controlled. They can and do get through fences, including electrified fences. I'm not personally pro fox hunting, but neither am I against it, but I do think that anyone involved with hunting should abide by the law, and try their utmost to ensure they drag hunt effectively, which isn't always 100% straight forward.
> 
> It was posted early on in the thread, if there's an issue with dog welfare, and people are that concerned about animals being mistreated, banning ownership of dogs as pets would make more difference overall, here's one bit of evidence for you....
> 
> WSBTR A day in the life of
> 
> Unfortunately, Patchy's story isn't a one off, it happens all the time, people are cruel to animals in all walks of life. I've said it before and I will always push the view for hunting and shooting people, just because they kill an animal, does not mean they don't admire and respect that animal. I love seeing wild animals, I also love eating pheasant, partridge, duck, goose, rabbit, pigeon, etc, I think it tastes a lot better than anything pumped full of hormones, raised in cruel conditions and slaughtered in fear.


this is about *fox hunting * and not who eats meat , most people eat meat ... we are talking about FOX HUNTING and them been pulled apart ffs


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It might have, but I know at least one person very vociferous in their anti fox hunting on this thread, posted on another that they bought two for a fiver chickens


One person? Been a lot of other contributors to thread


----------



## bellathemog

smudge2009 said:


> this is about *fox hunting * and not who eats meat , most people eat meat ... we are talking about FOX HUNTING and them been pulled apart ffs


I was gonna post the same as you, but you said it in such a better way :thumbup:


----------



## JJAK

bellathemog said:


> How long is the "shelf" life of a hound as a hunting dog.


Depends on the dog, 
Rogue is still hunting occasionally! 
Iv seen dogs retire young...say 3/4, iv seen them retire old 9/10+ 
I think most retire around 8ish?! but then still have plenty of years left in them.


----------



## JJAK

Amethyst said:


> Thank you for that reply, good to have someone who will at least try and explain their personal experience. What you speak of must refer to the Quorn hounds kennels?


And 3 others. 
I just used to live in quorn country so were the closest ones to me.

Ill explain anything to anyone that asks..providing i know the answer! 
If i dont know, ill say i dont know.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

smudge2009 said:


> this is about *fox hunting * and not who eats meat , most people eat meat ... we are talking about FOX HUNTING and them been pulled apart ffs


So we can pick on anyone (and rightly so) that is cruel in the pursuit of fox hunting, but we can't point out the double standards that actually, the vast majority of animal cruelty is down to pet ownership? If we're talking about cruelty surely we should focus on where the vast majority of cruelty to animals occurs, or at least be able to include it as part of the discussion.

And thanks for the large text, I may be knocking on, but I ain't going blind yet 



Amethyst said:


> One person? Been a lot of other contributors to thread


There have, no one has posted (I think with the exception of Noushka) to confirm they really do their utmost to ensure they live cruelty free. But many are still condemning fox hunting, or drag hunting as it is now.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

bellathemog said:


> I was gonna post the same as you, but you said it in such a better way :thumbup:


thanks, im sick on it going totally of topic , talk about hounds, horses,riders and foxes as much as you like, just leave everything else out


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So we can pick on anyone (and rightly so) that is cruel in the pursuit of fox hunting, but we can't point out the double standards that actually, the vast majority of animal cruelty is down to pet ownership? If we're talking about cruelty surely we should focus on where the vast majority of cruelty to animals occurs, or at least be able to include it as part of the discussion.
> 
> And thanks for the large text, I may be knocking on, but I ain't going blind yet
> 
> There have, no one has posted (I think with the exception of Noushka) to confirm they really do their utmost to ensure they live cruelty free. But many are still condemning fox hunting, or drag hunting as it is now.


i know there is other cruelty out there but we are not on about that in this discussion , start a new one if u want to discuss that one please


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There have, no one has posted (I think with the exception of Noushka) to confirm they really do their utmost to ensure they live cruelty free. But many are still condemning fox hunting, or drag hunting as it is now.


I certainly do and posted weeks ago about my dogs organic diet, okay still meat but hopefully a better standard of life for animals killed. I do buy meat, but organic too, just paid nearly £10.00 for a chicken today ... money well spent 

Anyway as said, totally different thing. Bloodsports are a different concern with a different motivating factor and an entirely different solution


----------



## snoopydo

thatspicegirl said:


> Oh wow, look at this bit from that link:
> 
> _In December 2005 Kennel Huntsman Philip Simmonds was found guilty of animal cruelty. During his trial the court heard Simmons stitched a sixinch gaping wound on a beagle's leg without giving the dog a local anaesthetic - an operation that should only be performed by a vet in an emergency.
> 
> The court also heard that he caused another beagle unnecessary suffering by delaying having it put down when it was terminally ill with kidney failure and heart problems. Simmonds was also found guilty of causing suffering to a mink hound by failing to have it treated for chronic ear problems.
> 
> The hounds are not the only dogs to suffer as a result of hunting. Terriers which are used to locate and fight foxes underground can sustain horrendous injuries. And as the following quote shows from a Terrier Man forum, these dogs meet the same callous ending as hounds: "Had a fell terrier, was a nutter... i took a walk to the woods. only i returned.........sad but the only way i could resolve the issue."_
> 
> So much unnecessary cruelty. It's not even just the foxes who are suffering needlessly here. Those pictures made me so angry.
> 
> People can sugarcoat things however they want, call this stuff whatever they want... but I think at the end of the day, part of it has to do with sadism. They get some kind of enjoyment out of all this death and killing =/


But your forgetting what The pro's are Saying ''It's a English Tradition''  What a Shite Excuse.....So was Public Hanging and Burning Witches at The Stake.......

Sorry the pics made you Angry like I said before It's Important that people see The real truth behind the Old English Bloody Traditions 

I Totally agree with you Sadism comment No person with ANY Feelings could pick up a Gun and Shoot a Dog..OR See them rip another Animal up.....


----------



## Amethyst

smudge2009 said:


> i know there is other cruelty out there but we are not on about that in this discussion , start a new one if u want to discuss that one please


I agree and apologise for being drawn into this distraction in last post 

I'm tired of it too, but happy to discuss elsewhere ... I think, would end up another epic  :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Hardly fair on a still middle aged working animal.


But did I say it was? have I said its fair to kill the foxes? have I said I agree with hunting a fox.... Have I said I agree with you eating meat or anything else that can be deemed cruel?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

smudge2009 said:


> i know there is other cruelty out there but we are not on about that in this discussion , start a new one if u want to discuss that one please


I'm sorry, but why should I? Cruelty is cruelty, no matter what guise. This thread is picking on one particular type of cruelty, and making sweeping generalisations about anyone and everyone involved with hunting and shooting. That is just not my experience, my experience has been the vast majority of cruelty is down to ignorant pet owners. So why not highlight that? Or is this a closed debate, so people can just pick on one particular set of people??

I don't know off hand how many people I know involved with hunting and shooting, they all are lovely, lovely people, some work their dogs as well, others don't but are involved with the hunt. No-one I know personally involved with hunting or shooting would treat any of their animals in the way the links on this thread has shown, but I know plenty of ill informed pet owners that would, and do. I've been involved in raising funds for charity for many cases, all pet owned dogs, like Patchy the Labrador whose link I posted. Did you read his story? So emaciated his penis was exposed, and he had started eating his own tail.

So no, I'm sorry, but I will continue to widen the debate, because I think it is entirely appropriate


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> But did I say it was? have I said its fair to kill the foxes? have I said I agree with hunting a fox.... Have I said I agree with you eating meat or anything else that can be deemed cruel?


I meant the whole business of hunting, not you in particular.


----------



## cool-jim

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry, but why should I? Cruelty is cruelty, no matter what guise. This thread is picking on one particular type of cruelty, and making sweeping generalisations about anyone and everyone involved with hunting and shooting. That is just not my experience, my experience has been the vast majority of cruelty is down to ignorant pet owners. So why not highlight that? Or is this a closed debate, so people can just pick on one particular set of people??
> 
> I don't know off hand how many people I know involved with hunting and shooting, they all are lovely, lovely people, some work their dogs as well, others don't but are involved with the hunt. No-one I know personally involved with hunting or shooting would treat any of their animals in the way the links on this thread has shown, but I know plenty of ill informed pet owners that would, and do. I've been involved in raising funds for charity for many cases, all pet owned dogs, like Patchy the Labrador whose link I posted. Did you read his story? So emaciated his penis was exposed, and he had started eating his own tail.
> 
> So no, I'm sorry, but I will continue to widen the debate, because I think it is entirely appropriate


I read it, did you. He was a Staff not a Labrador.


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> But did I say it was? have I said its fair to kill the foxes? have I said I agree with hunting a fox.... Have I said I agree with you eating meat or anything else that can be deemed cruel?


To be honest *I* haven't a clue 

Do tell


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

cool-jim said:


> I read it, did you. He was a Staff not a Labrador.


And the difference in breed means what?


----------



## MissShelley

Robynkeating said:


> Originally Posted by Robynkeating View Post
> in most circumstances out drag hunting the dogs follow the scent, 9 times out of 10 they will not find a fox, however, if the dogs do the whippers in on the horses try and get the dogs out of the woods or were ever. The hunt i hunt with has good control of these hounds, the dogs are punished if they flush animals too, one hound flushed a deer the other day and was told off to the extent that it would not do it again. you cannot always expect these animals to just forget what they have done for centuries can you, its like bringing home a wild wolf and expecting it to not kill other people animals ?





MissShelley said:


> Then you don't take them if you have no control over them.... And explain punishment for the dogs??? As an avid dog lover, who advocates positive training that sentence is ringing alarm bells





Robynkeating said:


> these hounds are not pets they are working dogs, they are completely different to domestic dogs that live in the house, dont think you lot can grasp this consep





MissShelley said:


> Um, yes I can grasp the concept thank you having spent most of my life around working dogs..The ones who I know get treated exactly the same as any domestic pet!.... My own dog was from working lines ( Police dog ) he was a pet... But was still utilised ( as are the majority of working dogs, police dogs are working dogs, yet they are also family pets when off duty ) the training and obedience was exactly the same....
> 
> So, stop dodging the issue explain exactly what you mean by punishment?





Sleeping Lion said:


> Wow, I'm amazed how one sided people can be. So, although there's a lot of people who enjoy drag hunting, with lovely hounds that are cared for as working dogs, they're all condemned because of the actions of others


Hmmm not what a drag/fox hunting supporter/participant implied 

Still waiting for the elaboration! Poster has been on since and gone again....Or if someone else would like to explain????


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry, but why should I? Cruelty is cruelty, no matter what guise. This thread is picking on one particular type of cruelty, and making sweeping generalisations about anyone and everyone involved with hunting and shooting.


Yes it is picking, as you say, on one type of cruelty...

It's actually a thread about FOX HUNTING not about animal cruelty in general 

The title of the thread is quite indicative of that. If you want to digress into a thread about all aspects os animal cruelty, then why not start another one


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> In all seriousness... I know it wasn't our dog.. and I know it wasn't next doors.. we were the only dog owners.... The field isn't commonly used... Not seen any strays.. only the fox....
> And I know.. if my dogs had the chance to chase/kill a cat... rat .... fox.... squirrel... in fact any furry that moved quick and caught there eye.. i reckon they would and if caught they would kill..


sorry about the cats its a real shame but im afraid people who have 'outdoor' cats run the risk of something happening to them everytime they let them loose....cats killed by foxes are rare but cats killed by cars extremely common ... my dogs would love to kill a cat



poohdog said:


> Many many years ago I read a book about naturalists in the Antarctic studying penguins.
> One of their huskies,called Dustbin..(Don't ask) got loose one night and slaughtered over 300 penguins in the rookery.No hoarding behaviour there...just total bloodlust.


blimey thats bad but i certainly believe it



JJAK said:


> Just thought id show you.
> 
> This is 'dragon' retired fox hound in her home.





JJAK said:


> the other 2 pics i have of dragon:


shes one 'very' lucky girl and lovely, just shows they can make good pets because this taken from the Master of Foxhounds Association website says they dont make good pets ...How can I buy a Foxhound from a Hunt? 
Foxhounds from MFHA packs do not make good pets. They have been bred, for generations, to hunt and are pack animals. Hounds can be drafted from one pack to another but no money changes hands. MFHA - Masters of Foxhounds Association - Frequently Asked Questions....so ive emailed them to ask what happens to the rest of their old and failed hounds


----------



## cool-jim

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And the difference in breed means what?


The breed means nothing where the cruelty is concerned. But when you're making a point, getting details right would show the facts had been taken in.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Yes it is picking, as you say, on one type of cruelty...
> 
> It's actually a thread about FOX HUNTING not about animal cruelty in general
> 
> The title of the thread is quite indicative of that. If you want to digress into a thread about all aspects os animal cruelty, then why not start another one


Ummm, already explained that. What difference does Patchy's breed make to the fact that it was cruelty, and that many other similar pet owned dogs suffer cruelty.


----------



## JANICE199

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So we can pick on anyone (and rightly so) that is cruel in the pursuit of fox hunting, but we can't point out the double standards that actually, the vast majority of animal cruelty is down to pet ownership? If we're talking about cruelty surely we should focus on where the vast majority of cruelty to animals occurs, or at least be able to include it as part of the discussion.
> 
> And thanks for the large text, I may be knocking on, but I ain't going blind yet
> 
> There have, no one has posted (I think with the exception of Noushka) to confirm they really do their utmost to ensure they live cruelty free. But many are still condemning fox hunting, or drag hunting as it is now.


*Feel free to start your own thread about the rights or wrongs where eating meat is concernd,but this thread is about hunt supporters.
lol the fox hunters can't even say they eat their catch.*


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

cool-jim said:


> The breed means nothing where the cruelty is concerned. But when you're making a point, getting details right would show the facts had been taken in.


Did I say Patchy was a Labrador? If so then I apologise profusely for a terribly misleading typo  Wow, amazed at the ability of people to miss the point entirely


----------



## JJAK

MissShelley said:


> Hmmm not what a drag/fox hunting supporter/participant implied
> 
> Still waiting for the elaboration! Poster has been on since and gone again....Or if someone else would like to explain????


Punishment for a hound? No idea, whilst out iv heard them be shouted at, iv not seen one hit/smacked/negatively repremanded?! so really cant answer that one for you!

I have however seen many positively praised. 
On the yard they do training with some of the dogs, they have 'puppy show' sort of things each year and theres a bit of obedience involved.


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ummm, already explained that. What difference does Patchy's breed make to the fact that it was cruelty, and that many other similar pet owned dogs suffer cruelty.


Because this a thread is to debate FOX HUNTING and what it entails 

If you want to talk about cruelty to pet dogs, again, please start another thread  Please don't try to divert attention away from the fundamental issues!


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Amethyst said:


> I agree and apologise for being drawn into this distraction in last post
> 
> I'm tired of it too, but happy to discuss elsewhere ... I think, would end up another epic  :lol:


no need to apologise, but thankyou anyway , its easily to get distracted on here lol

btw i was born and raised in a farming village and i hated the hunt from a early age , i did used to go to the hunt (well just to the carpark at the local pub )where the huntmen all gathered , i was quite scared to be honest with the amount of horses and dogs running everywhere ... i only went a few times as i went with my grandad and met up with a family member who used to come up to see her mum for xmas

this was my local pub that i have been going to since i was a young child with my parents and grandad , my grandad was the local farrier and the village back then was like a close knit family

when the hunt was finished the riders used to go and get their drink and they acted as though they owned the place and pushed you out of the way

now before any of you have a go at me, im not saying every rider is the same, but this is how it was to me back then, it may of changed now, it may not have i dont know , ive not been to a hunt since i was a child and will never support them, and i for one hope they never lift the ban

thats my view from a childs eye

if they want to go for a run with horses and hounds then let them, but i hope one day they will actually see a fox being attacks by a pack of hounds, and feel physically sick , ive never seen one only videos of them and thats enough to turn my stomach


----------



## cool-jim

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Did I say Patchy was a Labrador? If so then I apologise profusely for a terribly misleading typo  Wow, amazed at the ability of people to miss the point entirely


I do apologise, I meant when a point is being made. It's what happens when I rush sometimes, I forget to be non personal.


----------



## JJAK

noushka05 said:


> shes one 'very' lucky girl and lovely, just shows they can make good pets because this taken from the Master of Foxhounds Association website says they dont make good pets:


Iv got no idea wether money passes hands, I dont deal with things like that! 
Alot of people say they make terrible house pets, i spoze its like any dog, if youve got the time, patience and resources you can make a diamond out of dirt!?


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It might have, but I know at least one person very vociferous in their anti fox hunting on this thread, posted on another that they bought two for a fiver chickens
> 
> Been too busy trying to pull a Mod to read it all that thoroughly anyway :lol:


Awh! but that ain't cruel SL! them chickens don't suffer when the eletrocution bath fails! Seems chikens don't feel pain!



momentofmadness said:


> MMM I did have the feeling I had been pounced on.. :lol:


you were! I saw it!



smudge2009 said:


> this is about *fox hunting * and not who eats meat , most people eat meat ... we are talking about FOX HUNTING and them been pulled apart ffs


so there are two sets of standards of animal cruelty then! some feel more pain then others do they!



Amethyst said:


> One person? Been a lot of other contributors to thread


Been a lot that normally say note being veriiiii vocal!!!!!!!!



smudge2009 said:


> i know there is other cruelty out there but we are not on about that in this discussion , start a new one if u want to discuss that one please


And why should we do that!



snoopydo said:


> But your forgetting what The pro's are Saying ''It's a English Tradition''  What a Shite Excuse.....So was Public Hanging and Burning Witches at The Stake.......
> 
> Sorry the pics made you Angry like I said before It's Important that people see The real truth behind the Old English Bloody Traditions
> 
> I Totally agree with you Sadism comment No person with ANY Feelings could pick up a Gun and Shoot a Dog..OR See them rip another Animal up.....


Well some of you certainly seem to be reveling in it! Safety in numbers eh!


----------



## Amethyst

JANICE199 said:


> *Feel free to start your own thread about the rights or wrongs where eating meat is concernd,but this thread is about hunt supporters.
> lol the fox hunters can't even say they eat their catch.*


Thank you, we seem to be having difficulty getting this across to sleepylion 

And yes

"The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable. ... " 
Oscar Wilde


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry, but why should I? Cruelty is cruelty, no matter what guise. This thread is picking on one particular type of cruelty, and making sweeping generalisations about anyone and everyone involved with hunting and shooting. That is just not my experience, my experience has been the vast majority of cruelty is down to ignorant pet owners. So why not highlight that? Or is this a closed debate, so people can just pick on one particular set of people??
> 
> I don't know off hand how many people I know involved with hunting and shooting, they all are lovely, lovely people, some work their dogs as well, others don't but are involved with the hunt. No-one I know personally involved with hunting or shooting would treat any of their animals in the way the links on this thread has shown, but I know plenty of ill informed pet owners that would, and do. I've been involved in raising funds for charity for many cases, all pet owned dogs, like Patchy the Labrador whose link I posted. Did you read his story? So emaciated his penis was exposed, and he had started eating his own tail.
> 
> So no, I'm sorry, but I will continue to widen the debate, because I think it is entirely appropriate


because if it wasnt members like you this topic would stay on topic, quite a few memebers have now asked it to stay on topic , and your being ignorant to it


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Thank you, we seem to be having difficulty getting this across to sleepylion
> 
> And yes
> 
> "The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable. ... "
> Oscar Wilde[/QUOTE
> 
> Oh! so sleeping lion aint entitled an opinion then now!


----------



## noushka05

JJAK said:


> Iv got no idea wether money passes hands, I dont deal with things like that!
> Alot of people say they make terrible house pets, i spoze its like any dog, if youve got the time, patience and resources you can make a diamond out of dirt!?


sorry but who mentioned money

yes but the point is the majority of these dogs dont seem to be given the chance to become 'diamonds' do they?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Amethyst said:


> Thank you, we seem to be having difficulty getting this across to sleepylion
> 
> And yes
> 
> "The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable. ... "
> Oscar Wilde


Nice, can't be bothered to address the issues I've posted in context with the rest of the thread, so resort to insulting me by mis-typing my username :thumbup:


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> Amethyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, we seem to be having difficulty getting this across to sleepylion
> 
> And yes
> 
> "The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable. ... "
> Oscar Wilde[/QUOTE
> 
> Oh! so sleeping lion aint entitled an opinion then now!
> 
> 
> 
> yes they do but its off the topic YET AGAIN
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Nice, can't be bothered to address the issues I've posted in context with the rest of the thread, so resort to insulting me by mis-typing my username :thumbup:


Take no notice of em SL! some of em are so far up themselves its a wonder they aint stuck!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

smudge2009 said:


> because if it wasnt members like you this topic would stay on topic, quite a few memebers have now asked it to stay on topic , and your being ignorant to it


It's still on topic, it's just addressing wider issues, or do you think they're not important? Or do people want to hide behind a big fluffy idea that cruelty only happens elsewhere, like in the big bad fox hunting world??


----------



## snoopydo

JJAK said:


> Iv got no idea wether money passes hands, I dont deal with things like that!
> Alot of people say they make terrible house pets, i spoze its like any dog, if youve got the time, patience and resources* you can make a diamond out of dirt!?*




So......The Dogs are classed as Dirt now


----------



## cool-jim

Amethyst said:


> Thank you, we seem to be having difficulty getting this across to sleepylion
> 
> And yes
> 
> "The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable. ... "
> Oscar Wilde


I'll shut up, then he might listen to sense.:thumbup: I apologise for encouraging it.


----------



## MissShelley

JJAK said:


> Punishment for a hound? No idea, whilst out iv heard them be shouted at, iv not seen one hit/smacked/negatively repremanded?! so really cant answer that one for you!
> 
> I have however seen many positively praised.
> On the yard they do training with some of the dogs, they have 'puppy show' sort of things each year and theres a bit of obedience involved.


Thank you for not brushing my curiosity aside  It's alarming when I hear statements saying that the "dog was told off to the extent that it never did it again" I'm sure just shouting at a dog wouldn't have this effect. Afterall the working dogs I know don't respond to shouting, If you have to shout at a dog then you really havent trained him well, so the fault lies with the trainer there.

Anyway, not having a go at you, because at least you gave me a response


----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


> DoubleTrouble said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes they do but its off the topic YET AGAIN
> 
> 
> 
> You quoteing me mate of chewing a brick! coz you've cocked it up!
Click to expand...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

DoubleTrouble said:


> Take no notice of em SL! some of em are so far up themselves its a wonder they aint stuck!!


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> [/B]
> 
> So......The Dogs are classed as Dirt now


Umm you seeing things too! who said that!


----------



## JJAK

snoopydo said:


> [/B]
> 
> So......The Dogs are classed as Dirt now


No, thats you reading between the lines! 
It was a metaphorhorical statement, couldnt think of another way to phrase it!


----------



## smudgiesmummy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's still on topic, it's just addressing wider issues, or do you think they're not important? Or do people want to hide behind a big fluffy idea that cruelty only happens elsewhere, like in the big bad fox hunting world??


fox hunting is the subject ..... other forms of animal cruelty isnt... get then though your head please


----------



## bellathemog

smudge2009 said:


> because if it wasnt members like you this topic would stay on topic, quite a few memebers have now asked it to stay on topic , and your being ignorant to it


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


someone rattled your cage!


----------



## Amethyst

smudge2009 said:


> no need to apologise, but thankyou anyway , its easily to get distracted on here lol
> 
> btw i was born and raised in a farming village and i hated the hunt from a early age , i did used to go to the hunt (well just to the carpark at the local pub )where the huntmen all gathered , i was quite scared to be honest with the amount of horses and dogs running everywhere ... i only went a few times as i went with my grandad and met up with a family member who used to come up to see her mum for xmas
> 
> this was my local pub that i have been going to since i was a young child with my parents and grandad , my grandad was the local farrier and the village back then was like a close knit family
> 
> when the hunt was finished the riders used to go and get their drink and they acted as though they owned the place and pushed you out of the way
> 
> now before any of you have a go at me, im not saying every rider is the same, but this is how it was to me back then, it may of changed now, it may not have i dont know , ive not been to a hunt since i was a child and will never support them, and i for one hope they never lift the ban
> 
> thats my view from a childs eye
> 
> if they want to go for a run with horses and hounds then let them, but i hope one day they will actually see a fox being attacks by a pack of hounds, and feel physically sick , ive never seen one only videos of them and thats enough to turn my stomach


Yes it is 

Interesting to hear of your experiences as a child! You know when we were small I remember we had place mats of a jolly hunt meet, like the one you describe and I loved to count the dogs and horses apparently, as my mum told me! I can actually remember the horrible things 

The innocence of seeing life through childrens eyes ...

I'll add my mum was not pro-hunting, but I guess just didn't think too much about the mats at all, had too much to do bringing us up I guess!

Those place mats *shuddering at the though of them* :scared:


----------



## gorgeous

Hi everyone, 

This is a REALLY long thread! Like a roll of Andrex loo paper...goes on and on!!

Not had a chance to read it all - too long - so could someone please summarise for me....what is the gist of it all?



Ta in advance


----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


> fox hunting is the subject ..... other forms of animal cruelty isnt... get then though your head please


this is a PET FORUM! a fox aint a pet!


----------



## ClaireLouise

I agree I dont think SL comments are off topic really just looking at a wider picture. 
How can someone be so offended and upset about the cruelty of fox hunting but the buy 2 chickens for £5. Is the cruelty any less? 
good point imo


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Take no notice of em SL! some of em are so far up themselves its a wonder they aint stuck!!


You really do need to get a grip on life. With remarks like that above ^^


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

smudge2009 said:


> fox hunting is the subject ..... other forms of animal cruelty isnt... get then though your head please


Actually, it seems to be focussing on cruelty, and as we all know that happens elsewhere, not JUST with people involved with fox hunting, so my posts are, I think relevant.

My favourite saying, since they seem popular at the moment, and by no means intended towards anyone, but just because it makes me chuckle.

You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think 

Off for mi tea and lots of red wine, may try and pull a Mod later


----------



## JJAK

MissShelley said:


> Thank you for not brushing my curiosity aside  It's alarming when I hear statements saying that the "dog was told off to the extent that it never did it again" I'm sure just shouting at a dog wouldn't have this effect. Afterall the working dogs I know don't respond to shouting, If you have to shout at a dog then you really havent trained him well, so the fault lies with the trainer there.
> 
> Anyway, not having a go at you, because at least you gave me a response


If im honest, iv not been around this years hounds, 
I moved house at the start of this year and a few months before i moved the hunt i was around the most got a new whipper in. Im not familiar with his methods or the way he works (as iv not seen him at work)

I spoze when your on horseback its a tricky one, All the hounds i know answer to their individual name...so to call one out indiviually and to say 'no' is easy enough?!


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Yes it is
> 
> Interesting to hear of your experiences as a child! You know when we were small I remember we had place mats of a jolly hunt meet, like the one you describe and I loved to count the dogs and horses apparently, as my mum told me! I can actually remember the horrible things
> 
> The innocence of seeing life through childrens eyes ...
> 
> I'll add my mum was not pro-hunting, but I guess just didn't think too much about the mats at all, had too much to do bringing us up I guess!
> 
> Those place mats *shuddering at the though of them* :scared:


so can I! and I aint FOR fox hunting! but I aint for ganging up on the minority either! unlike some of you!


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> this is a PET FORUM! a fox aint a pet!


Who are you to say a fox cant be a pet?


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> this is a PET FORUM! a fox aint a pet!


Then neither are Foxhounds as they are just the tools of the hunt.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> this is a PET FORUM! a fox aint a pet!


no its a general part of the forum , not intended to discuss pets


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Who are you to say a fox cant be a pet?


And who are you to say they can?


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> so can I! and I aint FOR fox hunting! but I aint for ganging up on the minority either! unlike some of you!


ive not ganged up on anyone, ive tried to get members to keep to the subject that it was started for and get my head bitten off for it

the topic should be locked now


----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


> no its a general part of the forum , not intended to discuss pets


not intended to persecute other members either!Q but some of you seem to be making a fine job of that!


----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


> ive not ganged up on anyone, ive tried to get certain members to keep to the subject that it was started for
> 
> the topic should be locked now


No you've just run with the crowd!! bit like the hounds!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well some of you certainly seem to be reveling in it! Safety in numbers eh!


sorry Sue but thats out of order some of us feel passionatly about cruelty to foxes and it upsets us just as much as much as it would if someone ripped a dog to shreds....and im sure you'd be with us 100% if this is what we were debating about, so why shouldnt we question people who can only justify the vile passtime by giving other examples of mans inhumanity? tis a forum you know and ive seen you get passionate on subjects thet you feel strongly about


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> sorry Sue but thats out of order some of us feel passionatly about cruelty to foxes and it upsets us just as much as much as it would if someone ripped a dog to shreds....and im sure you'd be with us 100% if this is what we were debating about, so why shouldnt we question people who can only justify the vile passtime by giving other examples of mans inhumanity? tis a forum you know and ive seen you get passionate on subjects thet you feel strongly about


See it how ya ike Noush! I have been on these guys side all day!
they are like a pack of feeking hounds themselves!!


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Actually, it seems to be focussing on cruelty, and as we all know that happens elsewhere, not JUST with people involved with fox hunting, so my posts are, I think relevant.
> 
> Off for mi tea and lots of red wine, may try and pull a Mod later


Please that is the second time you have mentioned Mods, whatever for? Is it supposed to make us all quake in our shoes or something?

The thread is fine, it's you who seem to be determined to take it off topic and cause an issue for some reason. Why? Because it isn't going the way you want it to? Please if you are not happy with subject matter, leave us alone to talk to each other without harassment or your "threat" of Mods repeatedly coming up ...


----------



## noushka05

gorgeous said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> This is a REALLY long thread! Like a roll of Andrex loo paper...goes on and on!!
> 
> Not had a chance to read it all - too long - so could someone please summarise for me....what is the gist of it all?
> 
> Ta in advance


haha get it read you cheat!:lol:



DoubleTrouble said:


> this is a PET FORUM! a fox aint a pet!




what if it were about brutality to elephants then?


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> And who are you to say they can?


I know one fox who IS classed as a pet as it was taken in and hand feed as a pup. So yes they CAN BE PETS


----------



## Amethyst

Wrong post. Apologies


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Please that is the second time you have mentioned Mods, whatever for? Is it supposed to make us all quake in our shoes or something?
> 
> The thread is fine, it's you who seem to be determined to take it off topic and cause an issue for some reason. Why? Because it isn't going the way you want it to? Please if you are not happy with subject matter, leave us alone to talk to each other without harassment or your "threat" of Mods repeatedly coming up ...


Maybe she has a sense of humer! unlike some! shes been in bed with em all day!


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> No you've just run with the crowd!! bit like the hounds!


and so do you


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> someone rattled your cage!


Cage?

I dont live in a cage I live in a house but thanks for asking!


----------



## JANICE199

*


DoubleTrouble said:



so can I! and I aint FOR fox hunting! but I aint for ganging up on the minority either! unlike some of you!

Click to expand...

lmao Sue who's ganging up on who? the hounds against the fox?



ClaireLouise said:



I agree I dont think SL comments are off topic really just looking at a wider picture. 
How can someone be so offended and upset about the cruelty of fox hunting but the buy 2 chickens for £5. Is the cruelty any less? 
good point imo

Click to expand...

They are 2 didderent subjects.But if SL wishes to start a thread about the poor conditions some of our meat is raised in then i will join that topic too.*


----------



## ClaireLouise

bellathemog said:


> I know one fox who IS classed as a pet as it was taken in and hand feed as a pup. So yes they CAN BE PETS


A fox as a pet isnt ideal tho is it? they should be wild animals. I know there is one at the rescue DD works at but thats because it is injured. IMO if a fox isnt injured to keep it as a pet or even try and domesticate it is cruel.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> haha get it read you cheat!:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> what if it were about brutality to elephants then?


Noush! read my posts! I have been the anit hunt for two whole days!
But some of what they have dished out aint to others has been bang outta order! and coming from folk that dont normally say boo to a goose!! OK we know you Jan, Natik speelweaver and a few more are passinate about this! but I aint neverseen note get this dirty! Maybe I shouldhave gone to specsavers! I aint sticking up for hunting! I am sticking my neck out for folk like sleeping lion who ARE ethical in MOST forms!


----------



## cool-jim

ClaireLouise said:


> A fox as a pet isnt ideal tho is it? they should be wild animals. I know there is one at the rescue DD works at but thats because it is injured. IMO if a fox isnt injured to keep it as a pet or even try and domesticate it is cruel.


And some in the hunt community believe foxhounds don't make good pets either. So what's the difference.


----------



## Amethyst

JANICE199 said:


> *
> They are 2 didderent subjects.But if SL wishes to start a thread about the poor conditions some of our meat is raised in then i will join that topic too.*


Me to, I also find it of concern. But I would like to see this thread remain about hunting with dogs


----------



## bellathemog

ClaireLouise said:


> A fox as a pet isnt ideal tho is it? they should be wild animals. I know there is one at the rescue DD works at but thats because it is injured. IMO if a fox isnt injured to keep it as a pet or even try and domesticate it is cruel.


Trouble is the fox was so use to humans and the life the vet who helped them said the fox would not last out in the world on his own.

I'll get them to email me a photo of it.

Its rather sweet


----------



## snoopydo

DoubleTrouble said:


> Umm you seeing things too! who said that!


No I'm not seeing things.............



JJAK said:


> Iv got no idea wether money passes hands, I dont deal with things like that!
> Alot of people say they make terrible house pets, i spoze its like any dog, if youve got the time,* patience and resources you can make a diamond out of dirt!?*




There It Is..


----------



## ClaireLouise

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> They are 2 didderent subjects.But if SL wishes to start a thread about the poor conditions some of our meat is raised in then i will join that topic too.*


Sorry Jan but people always discuss slightly different things on all topics on here. If people only discussed the topic at hand it would have been half the thread it is. Its not like its a totally different topic its tied in with the topic at hand so seem appropriate IMO


----------



## JJAK

And on that note, 
Im off!!
I know we will never agree, but i hope iv let you into an insite of how i see hunting and the experiences iv had.
Id just like to add i fully repect your opinions to be anti hunting, iv not got a problem with any of you for it  

Ill be back, just right now iv gotta cook tea!


----------



## smudgiesmummy

no one will ever agree on this subject , its been going around in circles since who knows what page, time it was laid to rest i say 


everyone knows what this subject does to peoples views on fox hunting , anti hunters wont agree with hunters and vice versa and thats a fact


----------



## bellathemog

Does anyone want a cup of tea or coffee?
I'm going to put the kettle on for some hot choc:thumbup:


----------



## ClaireLouise

cool-jim said:


> And some in the hunt community believe foxhounds don't make good pets either. So what's the difference.


I didnt say there was a difference did I???   I never even mention Foxhounds


----------



## Amethyst

ClaireLouise said:


> Sorry Jan but people always discuss slightly different things on all topics on here. If people only discussed the topic at hand it would have been half the thread it is. Its not like its a totally different topic its tied in with the topic at hand so seem appropriate IMO


I think people find it difficult to follow to many differrent strands of athread and so it's best to keep on topic as much as possible. Persoannly I feel some are trying to divert attention deliberately, but maybe I am wrong. As a couple of us have said, we want this thread to be kept on topic, while happy to contribute to sleepylions thread on the cruelty of factory farming. I would hope that to be an acceptable compromise for them


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Does anyone want a cup of tea or coffee?
> I'm going to put the kettle on for some hot choc:thumbup:


Pop corn! I'll have some pop corn please - coz I'm gonna sit back and extract the urine!


----------



## cool-jim

bellathemog said:


> Does anyone want a cup of tea or coffee?
> I'm going to put the kettle on for some hot choc:thumbup:


Tea for me, white no sugar. TY.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

ClaireLouise said:


> Sorry Jan but people always discuss slightly different things on all topics on here. If people only discussed the topic at hand it would have been half the thread it is. Its not like its a totally different topic its tied in with the topic at hand so seem appropriate IMO


it is different though, thats the point

i dont wont to argue with anyone, think theres been far to much on here already , we have asked members just to discuss foxhunting and only a few are


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Noush! read my posts! I have been the anit hunt for two whole days!
> But some of what they have dished out aint to others has been bang outta order! and coming from folk that dont normally say boo to a goose!! OK we know you Jan, Natik speelweaver and a few more are passinate about this! but I aint neverseen note get this dirty! Maybe I shouldhave gone to specsavers! I aint sticking up for hunting! I am sticking my neck out for folk like sleeping lion who ARE ethical in MOST forms!


i dont have time to read all the posts but the ones i have read havent beed so bad...and it this was a thread where someone was trying to justify puppy farming by giving other examples of animal cruelty would you be so quick to defend?


----------



## Amethyst

smudge2009 said:


> no one will ever agree on this subject , its been going around in circles since who knows what page, time it was laid to rest i say
> everyone knows what this subject does to peoples views on fox hunting , anti hunters wont agree with hunters and vice versa and thats a fact


Why have it locked, while some people are happy to post? Most threads simply run their course and aren't locked. If people don't want to participate, surely they just don't read it?


----------



## JANICE199

ClaireLouise said:


> Sorry Jan but people always discuss slightly different things on all topics on here. If people only discussed the topic at hand it would have been half the thread it is. Its not like its a totally different topic its tied in with the topic at hand so seem appropriate IMO


*Thats not true Claire,when i did a thread about hunt sabs it stayed on topic and was a damn good debate.People tend to go off topic either because they don't have anything worth saying,or they want the thread closed.imo*


----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


> it is different though, thats the point
> 
> i dont wont to argue with anyone, think theres been far to much on here already , we have asked members just to discuss foxhunting and only a few are


you may have ASKED members to 'discuss' the subject! but there are MORE that have been persuing ANYONE who has a view different to yours agressivily!

I have been on the side of the fox ALL day! but I sure aint siding with you lot !!


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Pop corn! I'll have some pop corn please - coz I'm gonna sit back and extract the urine!


I had pop corn last night while on here, what about seeing that its christmas......... chocolate covered pop corn


----------



## ClaireLouise

Amethyst said:


> I think people find it difficult to follow to many differrent strands of athread and so it's best to keep on topic as much as possible. *Persoannly I feel some are trying to divert attention deliberately*, but maybe I am wrong. As a couple of us have said, we want this thread to be kept on topic, while happy to contribute to sleepylions thread on the cruelty of factory farming. I would hope that to be an acceptable compromise for them


It can look the other way too, it also looks like people cant answer what SL is bringing up so just complain its off topic IMO


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> I had pop corn last night while on here, what about seeing that its christmas......... chocolate covered pop corn


OK! but you're paying!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## cool-jim

bellathemog said:


> I had pop corn last night while on here, what about seeing that its christmas......... chocolate covered pop corn


Well I was going to get the Chrimbo cake out, but if there choccy popcorn going I'll save the cake for Easter.:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> I had pop corn last night while on here, what about seeing that its christmas......... chocolate covered pop corn


i had 4 cans of beer better than watching tele:thumbup:


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> OK! but you're paying!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Home made DT all home made with dark/milk/white choc


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> Well I was going to get the Chrimbo cake out, but if there choccy popcorn going I'll save the cake for Easter.:thumbup::thumbup:


You have to stand behind me in the queue though! t'is is demand!


----------



## gorgeous

Thinking of ordering a curry tonight - fancy something hot n spicy...:001_cool:


----------



## Natik

noushka05 said:


> i dont have time to read all the posts but the ones i have read havent beed so bad...and it this was a thread where someone was trying to justify puppy farming by giving other examples of animal cruelty would you be so quick to defend?


good question!


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Home made DT all home made with dark/milk/white choc


don't like white choccy! you give that to babies:thumbup:


----------



## Amethyst

JANICE199 said:


> *People tend to go off topic either because they don't have anything worth saying,or they want the thread closed.imo*


That's just about it. There seems one or two itching to have this thread closed for no good reason. Why don't they just leave thread be if they have no interest or nothing constructive to add :confused1:


----------



## Guest

gorgeous said:


> Thinking of ordering a curry tonight - fancy something hot n spicy...:001_cool:


not tonight! but maybe tomorrow!:thumbup:


----------



## cool-jim

ClaireLouise said:


> I didnt say there was a difference did I???   I never even mention Foxhounds


If you read back, it was suggested a debate on fox's shouldn't be on this forum as they're not pets. that's where the foxes as pets came from. you should try to keep up. :lol::lol:


----------



## Guest

gorgeous said:


> Thinking of ordering a curry tonight - fancy something hot n spicy...:001_cool:


:arf::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub::yesnod:


----------



## bellathemog

borderer said:


> i had 4 cans of beer better than watching tele:thumbup:


4 cans!  I can only drink one and i'm on the floor


----------



## noushka05

Natik said:


> good question!


and im still waiting for an answer Natik


----------



## bellathemog

gorgeous said:


> Thinking of ordering a curry tonight - fancy something hot n spicy...:001_cool:


Going out for one of those tomorrow bollywood style


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> 4 cans!  I can only drink one and i'm on the floor


oh fancy a night out:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> If you read back, it was suggested a debate on fox's shouldn't be on this forum as they're not pets. that's where the foxes as pets came from. you should try to keep up. :lol::lol:


Erm! if youu are posting this in re summat I said mate then be a gent and quote my post and the one I quoted!

Can't be doing with half a story myself!


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> and im still waiting for an answer Natik


you waiting for an anser from me Noush! coz I aint playing no more!


----------



## momentofmadness

Right so all those who are tired now.. and are hard of reading...

How are you anti hunters going to stop the hunting that must be going on illegally, and if we need to keep the population of the fox down... tell me how do you suppose we do that?x


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> Erm! if youu are posting this in re summat I said mate then be a gent and quote my post and the one I quoted!
> 
> Can't be doing with half a story myself!


If you said it, you post it, I'm working from memory here, this thread is moving faster than a bullet train.


----------



## JANICE199

*Same morons taking things off topic.lmao talk about if ya face fits.*


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> you waiting for an anser from me Noush! coz I aint playing no more!


spoil sport!:001_tt2:


----------



## bellathemog

borderer said:


> oh fancy a night out:thumbup:


When you hit 36 its one cider and i'm either asleep or acting like a 18 yr old:thumbup:


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *Same morons taking things off topic.lmao talk about if ya face fits.*


Janice.. me an you have been through this a thousand times.. please dont call people morons though!

Have you read my last post.. we have been through this on many threads.. x


----------



## Amethyst

Out of interest 

For those of us who having read through thread, well most of it and considers hunting with dogs wrong ...

Will anyone now do anything or maybe look further into how you can actually make a change, ensure the act is not repealed or support those who REALLY are active as anti's?

I've renewed my membership to LACS for a start, little step but we do have local support groups 

League Against Cruel Sports - Home


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> this is a PET FORUM! a fox aint a pet!


Found it.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> spoil sport!:001_tt2:


You know when kids are playing footie in theplayground and one kid gets the humps and picks the ball up?? I'm that kid!


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> Out of interest
> 
> For those of us who having read through thread, well most of it and considers hunting with dogs wrong ...
> 
> Will anyone now do anything or maybe look further into how you can actually make a change, ensure the act is not repealed or support those who REALLY are active as anti's?
> 
> I've renewed my membership to LACS for a start, little step but we do have local support groups
> 
> League Against Cruel Sports - Home


Okies.. now we are talking... did you read my last post people.. come on ideas please??


----------



## bellathemog

Amethyst said:


> Out of interest
> 
> For those of us who having read through thread, well most of it and considers hunting with dogs wrong ...
> 
> Will anyone now do anything or maybe look further into how you can actually make a change, ensure the act is not repealed or support those who REALLY are active as anti's?
> 
> I've renewed my membership to LACS for a start, little step but we do have local support groups
> 
> League Against Cruel Sports - Home


I iz member too:thumbup:


----------



## momentofmadness

Right so all those who are tired now.. and are hard of reading...

How are you anti hunters going to stop the hunting that must be going on illegally, and if we need to keep the population of the fox down... tell me how do you suppose we do that?x
__________________


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Out of interest
> 
> For those of us who having read through thread, well most of it and considers hunting with dogs wrong ...
> 
> Will anyone now do anything or maybe look further into how you can actually make a change, ensure the act is not repealed or support those who REALLY are active as anti's?
> 
> I've renewed my membership to LACS for a start, little step but we do have local support groups
> 
> League Against Cruel Sports - Home


Hallaluyah! said that twenty pages back!! but got jumped on!


----------



## momentofmadness

Haha load argue about it but can't come up with good ideas of how to sort the situ..

DT was right can't remember what she said..lol re reclining something or other.. :lol:


----------



## Amethyst

bellathemog said:


> I iz member too:thumbup:


I thought you might be looking at link. I was a member for years, but lapsed ... shame on me.

I have a friend involved with rescue who I am pretty sure has contacts in this area, but I think they may be sabs and my knees ain't up to running accross fields anymore or climbing fences 

It's an age since she talked about this, so we'll see what I can find out. I'm not sure which angle I shall take here, need to do a little research


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Haha load argue about it but can't come up with good ideas of how to sort the situ..
> 
> DT was right can't remember what she said..lol re reclining something or other.. :lol:


Nah! am way past that now!
going to bed!
Having to endure sex is preferable to this !:scared::scared::scared:


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> and if we need to keep the population of the fox down... tell me how do you suppose we do that?x
> __________________


Good gamekeeper with a rifle...not the 'Magnificent 7' and a bunch of hounds, much more kind on the enviroment too...


----------



## ClaireLouise

cool-jim said:


> *If you read back*, it was suggested a debate on fox's shouldn't be on this forum as they're not pets. that's where the foxes as pets came from. *you should try to keep up*. :lol::lol:


Ive tried to keep up but I havent had chance to read the whole thread just catch up from last time I was on ive been at work and ive been cooking dinner just now too


JANICE199 said:


> *Same morons taking things off topic.lmao talk about if ya face fits.*


Thats a bit out of order Jan


----------



## momentofmadness

jon bda said:


> Good gamekeeper with a rifle...not the 'Magnificent 7' and a bunch of hounds, much more kind on the enviroment too...


very few and far between.. what if the miss and just injure.. the poor fox is running round with a half amputated leg, dies of starvation?


----------



## shibby

Amethyst said:


> Out of interest
> 
> For those of us who having read through thread, well most of it and considers hunting with dogs wrong ...
> 
> *Will anyone now do anything or maybe look further into how you can actually make a change, ensure the act is not repealed or support those who REALLY are active as anti's?*
> 
> I've renewed my membership to LACS for a start, little step but we do have local support groups
> 
> League Against Cruel Sports - Home


Already do, petitions, letters to MPs etc.  Just wish I had more money to help the cause *sighs*


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Right so all those who are tired now.. and are hard of reading...
> 
> How are you anti hunters going to stop the hunting that must be going on illegally, and if we need to keep the population of the fox down... tell me how do you suppose we do that?x
> __________________


OR You could ask
" who on here as done something in the past to stop a hunt " as hunts dont go on anymore NOT.

I have and have been arrested for it.

So who else?


----------



## Staysee

Im only at page 98, bloody hell you lot can talk!

But i had to post!

Yes im anti hunt, totally and utterly anti hunt, but after PM'ing a pro-hunt PF member [im sh!t with names, sorry] and reading through

We really need to stop saying that everything that happens, happen in every hunt, there may be some awful hunts out there who do kill thier dogs....but then theres another the next town over [or however it works] who try thier upmost to rehome thier dogs

BUT......pro hunters, you guys tell us how its in the fox hounds blood, in its nature to just hunt....so how can, after years of being trained to hunt and times of not responding to the huntsmen and 'punishmet' to make sure the dog doesnt go wrong again....how CAN the poor dog be rehomed? If its so natural to the dog to hunt and its trained even more so into it, then surely it wont make a great pet? Thats unless its the only pet, no young kids and never let off a lead incase it goes for something?

Now im heading back to page 98 to keep reading XD


----------



## ClaireLouise

shibby said:


> Already do, petitions, letters to MPs etc.  Just wish I had more money to help the cause *sighs*


Ive also signed petitions and emailed MPs


----------



## Amethyst

Are Lush that wonderful cosmetic company still supporting the Hunt Saboteurs Association? Now that would be one very easy and lovely way to support an organisation that is that the very nasty and dirt, and bloody end of hunting with dogs ...


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> OR You could ask
> " who on here as done something in the past to stop a hunt " as hunts dont go on anymore NOT.
> 
> I have and have been arrested for it.
> 
> So who else?


Yeah well i dont agree with people shouting and blaring and standing in the line of horses.. To cause injury to myself or my horse.. i also don't agree with strangers upsetting the hounds and risk being trampled, I also dont agree with people blocking the roads up whilst in their car shouting abuse when they haven't a clue what they are on about!


----------



## JANICE199

momentofmadness said:


> Right so all those who are tired now.. and are hard of reading...
> 
> How are you anti hunters going to stop the hunting that must be going on illegally, and if we need to keep the population of the fox down... tell me how do you suppose we do that?x
> __________________


*Firstly the police should lock up those that refuse to stay within the law..2nd foxes don't need their population keeping down.*


----------



## Guest

Amethyst said:


> Are Lush that wonderful cosmetic company still supporting the Hunt Saboteurs Association? Now that would be one very easy and lovely way to support an organisation that is that the very nasty and dirt, and bloody end of hunting with dogs ...


Yes! and they were very supportive when BBM contacted them last month! they werelooking to promot summat but cannot remember what!


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Right so all those who are tired now.. and are hard of reading...
> 
> How are you anti hunters going to stop the hunting that must be going on illegally, and if we need to keep the population of the fox down... tell me how do you suppose we do that?x


the hunt monitors do their best monitor hunts against much hostility!

keep the fox population down pmsl....the hunts have been caught out Breeding foxes to hunt


----------



## JANICE199

ClaireLouise said:


> Ive tried to keep up but I havent had chance to read the whole thread just catch up from last time I was on ive been at work and ive been cooking dinner just now too
> 
> Thats a bit out of order Jan


*I don't see how apeking the truth is out of order.Some on here have to abide by the rules whilst others can do what the hell they like.*


----------



## momentofmadness

JANICE199 said:


> *Firstly the police should lock up those that refuse to stay within the law..2nd foxes don't need their population keeping down.*


There you go again Janice I said IF we need to keep the population down


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yes! and they were very supportive when BBM contacted them last month! they werelooking to promot summat but cannot remember what!


lush donated to the pf charity auction


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not referring to all those who are anti hunting, but there will be some who don't shop ethically


I do not buy products that have been tested on animals, I am dead against smoking...animals died to prove that smoking with kill humans...nah really?? 

I eat meat but only eat meat that has been reared ethically to British Standards, I only buy free range chicken and eggs and am very bleurgh about other meats. Surprising as I was in hospital for over a week with Salmonella and went off chicken for over 2 years...but soon realised that when cooked better it's fine - it's really all I eat.

I have no problem with hunting for food using humane methods.... we all have to eat and whilst I cannot watch a documentary where a lion rips it's prey apart that IS nature and hunting at it's best...a lion needs no instruction from humans.

Fox hunting is staged...They advocate ripping a fox to shreds, some hunts people are not as respectful and abuse and torture the creature first. There are ways to kill 'vermin' and there are ways to kill 'food' I do not advocate any method if it seeks to harm and torture a creature...like I am against Halal meat I am against fox hunting.

May sound hypocritical but I am not against pest control I am against the cruel, blood thirsty hunters who get pleasure out of causing pain.

Someone said it may be tradition but how many traditions have we kept even though we know they are wrong? slavery? child labour?

I take all animal cruelty seriously and am a strong believer in natural population control we do not need to chase a tired fox through the countryside and then torture it.


----------



## Amethyst

shibby said:


> Already do, petitions, letters to MPs etc.  Just wish I had more money to help the cause *sighs*


But that's brilliant. Not all of us can do as much as we would like to, but I think it's important that we just do what we can.

I so much admire people who go sabbing, but I'd be a hindrance more than a help I think  I have seen a site where it tells you what you can donate to help them, so next time I stock up on essential oils I'll likely be buying a few bottles of citronella, boy does that stink ... I've used it before to deter flies, I think they must use it to spray the huntsmen


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I posted earlier about actual fox hunting with horse and hounds, there are times it isn't feasible to shoot a fox, and whilst it's not a nice idea that any animal dies, if foxes become a problem, they do need to be controlled. They can and do get through fences, including electrified fences. I'm not personally pro fox hunting, but neither am I against it, but I do think that anyone involved with hunting should abide by the law, and try their utmost to ensure they drag hunt effectively, which isn't always 100% straight forward.


Erm - I know you like to sit on the fence on this subject, but you've done it par excellence in this paragraph hun!  Come on now, which do you really believe? Do you believe that foxes are a problem that needs to be controlled and hunting is an acceptable way of doing so? Or do you believe that hunts should drag hunt and not hunt foxes? The two stances are diametrically opposed, but you have tried to say both should happen at the same time in this paragraph.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> ....... just because they kill an animal, does not mean they don't admire and respect that animal.


I cannot agree with you in the case of fox hunting. No-one who respected an animal would subject it to such an horrific form of death. And even if it were true, and could somehow be communicated to the fox - do you think it would actually make the fox feel any better to know that he was respected by the hunters as, terrified and exhausted, he is ripped to shreds whilst he is still alive? This is nothing more than an excuse for fox-hunters to feel better about themselves for committing such atrocities.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I love seeing wild animals, I also love eating pheasant, partridge, duck, goose, rabbit, pigeon, etc, I think it tastes a lot better than anything pumped full of hormones, raised in cruel conditions and slaughtered in fear


What makes you think that animals who are hunted are not slaughtered in fear? Are you trying to say they are not afraid and are dying happily, unconcerned that they've been stalked, flushed out of cover, chased, etc etc etc (depending upon the type of hunting you mean)?


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *Firstly the police should lock up those that refuse to stay within the law..2nd foxes don't need their population keeping down.*


I'll agree with the police locking up ANYONE who breaks the law! and them under suspision too! shame our cells would never cope though!


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Yeah well i dont agree with people shouting and blaring and standing in the line of horses.. To cause injury to myself or my horse.. i also don't agree with strangers upsetting the hounds and risk being trampled, I also dont agree with people blocking the roads up whilst in their car shouting abuse when they haven't a clue what they are on about!


I never got in the way, I never blocked roads, I never caused injury to horse/hounds I asked an honest question and was very honest with it.

The question asked went on the lines of "why do you do it?" aimed at the "so called" female on her horse, she turned to me and spat at me and well I cant remember what she said after that, but it wasn't polite


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> The question asked went on the lines of "why do you do it?" aimed at the "so called" female on her horse, she turned to me and spat at me and well I cant remember what she said after that, but it wasn't polite


i think I would have decked her!
Seriously!! you could have done her for assault!!!


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> I never got in the way, I never blocked roads, I never caused injury to horse/hounds I asked an honest question and was very honest with it.
> 
> The question asked went on the lines of "why do you do it?" aimed at the "so called" female on her horse, she turned to me and spat at me and well I cant remember what she said after that, but it wasn't polite


You see if I was sat on my horse and felt I was being mithered by someone well, im not sure I would spit in your face.. but I wouldn't be polite.. You see we did some drag hunting and all these anti hunters think... that they know it all and dont actually know the difference or what is going on when out and about. And they turn up and cause havoc.. without really a thought for any bodies safety not even there own!

Whilst out hacking with my kids I have been called a gypsy and numerous other things.. had cans and all sorts thrown at us... And thats not even on a hunt..:lol:


----------



## Amethyst

Lush says they sold a limited edition bubble bar called the 'Fabulous Mrs Fox' in aid of the hunt sabs, and in the end raised £50000 for their good work.

Fabulous, obviously a LOT of people had sympathy for the cause 

I might have car boot sale in the warmer weather, though doubt I'll make anywhere near that


----------



## momentofmadness

Who eats from the kebab house???


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> i think I would have decked her!
> Seriously!! you could have done her for assault!!!


I was done for GBH and no i'm not proud of it I was 19 at the time but since that day I have gone against everything hunting.

And I know you can blame one women for the other murdering red jackets in the land, some must be nice but after that I am as some of you called us

"anti's" and BLOODY PROUD OF IT


----------



## noushka05

this video of an older lady hunt monitor being attacked by a huntsman is seriously sickening but for some reason the link to the video wont open
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/environment-and-rural-affairs/footage-of-attack-on-hunt-monitors-released-$1270324.htm

anyway heres the text


Wednesday, 18, Feb 2009 10:41

By politics.co.uk staff 

The League Against Cruel Sports has released footage of one of its monitors being attacked by a foxhunter. 

The video, which is two and a half minutes long, shows hunt monitors being approached by several hunters who proceed to repeatedly knock the monitors over with their horses. 

While verbally abusing them, the hunters eventually manage to knock Graham Forsyth, a hunt monitor for the league, into a ditch while verbally threatening his fellow monitor Helen Weeks. 

Ms Weeks appears highly emotional in the video. 

The perpetrator of the attack, huntsman Christopher Marles, has since been convicted of assault on Ms Weeks and faces a jail term when he is sentenced at Exeter crown court next month.


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> You see if I was sat on my horse and felt I was being mithered by someone well, im not sure I would spit in your face.. but I wouldn't be polite.. You see we did some drag hunting and all these anti hunters think... that they know it all and dont actually know the difference or what is going on when out and about. And they turn up and cause havoc.. without really a thought for any bodies safety not even there own!
> 
> Whilst out hacking with my kids I have been called a gypsy and numerous other things.. had cans and all sorts thrown at us... And thats not even on a hunt..:lol:


Why would you not be polite?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Posting and dashing because I'm currently enjoying a glass of wine, and a Monty Python dvd.



Amethyst said:


> Please that is the second time you have mentioned Mods, whatever for? Is it supposed to make us all quake in our shoes or something?
> 
> The thread is fine, it's you who seem to be determined to take it off topic and cause an issue for some reason. Why? Because it isn't going the way you want it to? Please if you are not happy with subject matter, leave us alone to talk to each other without harassment or your "threat" of Mods repeatedly coming up ...


Wow, you've obviously only been contributing to THIS thread, or you'd have seen my foot in mouth typo thread last night, do you really think I'd want the mods called in for a discussion on cruelty?? Your opinion really is not that important to me.



JANICE199 said:


> *Same morons taking things off topic.lmao talk about if ya face fits.*


Thanks, nice to get personal yet again, I'll refrain from doing so in response 



Amethyst said:


> Are Lush that wonderful cosmetic company still supporting the Hunt Saboteurs Association? Now that would be one very easy and lovely way to support an organisation that is that the very nasty and dirt, and bloody end of hunting with dogs ...


You've actually got that 100% the wrong way round, perhaps your google isn't functioning right :lol:



Buster's Mummy said:


> I do not buy products that have been tested on animals, I am dead against smoking...animals died to prove that smoking with kill humans...nah really??
> 
> I eat meat but only eat meat that has been reared ethically to British Standards, I only buy free range chicken and eggs and am very bleurgh about other meats. Surprising as I was in hospital for over a week with Salmonella and went off chicken for over 2 years...but soon realised that when cooked better it's fine - it's really all I eat.
> 
> I have no problem with hunting for food using humane methods.... we all have to eat and whilst I cannot watch a documentary where a lion rips it's prey apart that IS nature and hunting at it's best...a lion needs no instruction from humans.
> 
> Fox hunting is staged...They advocate ripping a fox to shreds, some hunts people are not as respectful and abuse and torture the creature first. There are ways to kill 'vermin' and there are ways to kill 'food' I do not advocate any method if it seeks to harm and torture a creature...like I am against Halal meat I am against fox hunting.
> 
> May sound hypocritical but I am not against pest control I am against the smarmy, blood thirsty hunters who get pleasure out of causing pain.
> 
> Someone said it may be tradition but how many traditions have we kept even though we know they are wrong? slavery? child labour?
> 
> I take all animal cruelty seriously and am a strong believer in natural population control we do not need to chase a tired fox through the countryside and then torture it.





bellathemog said:


> I never got in the way, I never blocked roads, I never caused injury to horse/hounds I asked an honest question and was very honest with it.
> 
> The question asked went on the lines of "why do you do it?" aimed at the "so called" female on her horse, she turned to me and spat at me and well I cant remember what she said after that, but it wasn't polite


Thanks for that response, you're the only one so far to have actually said anything about how they choose to shop ethically. I did a thread a while ago, may make interesting reading for some about skewed ethics, and how we choose certain things that fit in with our lifestyles.


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Who eats from the kebab house???


Do they now do fox kebabs!


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There have, no one has posted (I think with the exception of Noushka) to confirm they really do their utmost to ensure they live cruelty free. But many are still condemning fox hunting, or drag hunting as it is now.


I have had this discussion with you on other threads so you know that I do! And I have posted several times on this thread to say that all forms of animal cruelty should be fought against - most posters have agreed on this thread too.

However, even if no-one had agreed, even if we supposed, for the sake of argument, the ridiculous situation that everyone ate factory farmed meat, wore cosmetics tested on animals etc etc but was against fox hunting - being against fox-hunting would still not be wrong. Two-faced, maybe, but not wrong. It cannot be wrong to be against one form of cruelty whatever else you do and believe in.


----------



## Amethyst

I found the LACS protests to be well managed and peaceful. You still had hunt supporters glaring at you, but it didn't bother me in the least :lol: 

Wonder how it is now? We shall see


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for that response, you're the only one so far to have actually said anything about how they choose to shop ethically. I did a thread a while ago, may make interesting reading for some about skewed ethics, and how we choose certain things that fit in with our lifestyles.


Noushka is not the only one ...


----------



## Natik

noushka05 said:


> this video of an older lady hunt monitor being attacked by a huntsman is seriously sickening but for some reason the link to the video wont open
> http://www.politics.co.uk/news/environment-and-rural-affairs/footage-of-attack-on-hunt-monitors-released-$1270324.htm
> 
> anyway heres the text
> 
> Wednesday, 18, Feb 2009 10:41
> 
> By politics.co.uk staff
> 
> The League Against Cruel Sports has released footage of one of its monitors being attacked by a foxhunter.
> 
> The video, which is two and a half minutes long, shows hunt monitors being approached by several hunters who proceed to repeatedly knock the monitors over with their horses.
> 
> While verbally abusing them, the hunters eventually manage to knock Graham Forsyth, a hunt monitor for the league, into a ditch while verbally threatening his fellow monitor Helen Weeks.
> 
> Ms Weeks appears highly emotional in the video.
> 
> The perpetrator of the attack, huntsman Christopher Marles, has since been convicted of assault on Ms Weeks and faces a jail term when he is sentenced at Exeter crown court next month.


Footage of attack on hunt monitors released - politics.co.uk the video is on the bottom of the article


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Do they now do fox kebabs!


I wouldn't be a bit suprised! and I AINT joking if the did fox curry!:scared:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Spellweaver said:


> Erm - I know you like to sit on the fence on this subject, but you've done it par excellence in this paragraph hun!  Come on now, which do you really believe? Do you believe that foxes are a problem that needs to be controlled and hunting is an acceptable way of doing so? Or do you believe that hunts should drag hunt and not hunt foxes? The two stances are diametrically opposed, but you have tried to say both should happen at the same time in this paragraph.
> 
> I think in some instances, hunting is the better option, but if you've read any of my posts, no, generally not in the majority of cases. But then fox hunting never was the main way foxes were killed.
> 
> I cannot agree with you in the case of fox hunting. No-one who respected an animal would subject it to such an horrific form of death. And even if it were true, and could somehow be communicated to the fox - do you think it would actually make the fox feel any better to know that he was respected by the hunters as, terrified and exhausted, he is ripped to shreds whilst he is still alive? This is nothing more than an excuse for fox-hunters to feel better about themselves for committing such atrocities.
> 
> What is horrific about it's death? It's no more horrific than any other animal that's killed. Foxes are wild, they don't get a letter through the post saying they may well have a pack of hounds on their tail, Tuesday after next, and spend the next fortnight worrying and planning to try and prevent that happening. Many animals fall prey, what makes fox hunting that much more cruel than any other situation (again, I'm reiterating the not pro, but balanced view here, but really, all wild animals eventually die an ignonamous death, some younger, some older).
> 
> What makes you think that animals who are hunted are not slaughtered in fear? Are you trying to say they are not afraid and are dying happily, unconcerned that they've been stalked, flushed out of cover, chased, etc etc etc (depending upon the type of hunting you mean)?


Of course they're frightened, who isn't when their last moment(s) on earth are staring them in their face. But at least some animals get to live a natural life before they die, sometimes quicker than not, but then how many animals suffer horrendous journies to slaughter houses, and die in horrible circumstances for our benefit? Not a diversionary tactic, but really, cruelty in context.

Right, off to enjoy my wine and dvd, you guys can quote me and pick all ya like, I really don't care. :thumbup:


----------



## Amethyst

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Of course they're frightened, who isn't when their last moment(s) on earth are staring them in their face. But at least some animals get to live a natural life before they die, sometimes quicker than not, but then how many animals suffer horrendous journies to slaughter houses, and die in horrible circumstances for our benefit? Not a diversionary tactic, but really, cruelty in context.
> 
> Right, off to enjoy my wine and dvd, you guys can quote me and pick all ya like, I really don't care. :thumbup:


Begin your own thread and stop trying to change topic, desperation kicking in :lol:


----------



## Guest

Right said:


> well on a brighter not SL! whilst they are picking at what you've said they are leaving the other poor innocents alone!
> 
> PACK MENTALITY!


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Do they now do fox kebabs!


Do you agree with Halal meat?


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My favourite saying, since they seem popular at the moment, and by no means intended towards anyone, but just because it makes me chuckle.
> 
> You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Love it!


----------



## Natik

Spellweaver said:


> I have had this discussion with you on other threads so you know that I do! And I have posted several times on this thread to say that all forms of animal cruelty should be fought against - most posters have agreed on this thread too.
> 
> However, even if no-one had agreed, even if we supposed, for the sake of argument, the ridiculous situation that everyone ate factory farmed meat, wore cosmetics tested on animals etc etc but was against fox hunting - being against fox-hunting would still not be wrong. Two-faced, maybe, but not wrong. It cannot be wrong to be against one form of cruelty whatever else you do and believe in.


well said


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> Do you agree with Halal meat?


That's a topic for elsewhere.


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Do you agree with Halal meat?


i for one would FIGHT againt Hallah meat to the death if it stopped it!
Infact I dont eat meat! (apart from a couple of brief slips) but still have to buy and cook it!


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Do you agree with Halal meat?


I'm not upto scratch on the Halal world i'm sorry to say.......... I'm up in Sheffield next weekend i'll go find a kebab shop and ask


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> i for one would FIGHT againt Hallah meat to the death if it stopped it!
> Infact I dont eat meat! (apart from a couple of brief slips) but still have to buy and cook it!


Ive just been the kebab house and was stunned to see 100% halal meat.. where was my choice?


----------



## gorgeous

momentofmadness said:


> Ive just been the kebab house and was stunned to see 100% halal meat.. where was my choice?


veggie - you can have a veggie kebab.....


----------



## Guest

Spellweaver said:


> I have had this discussion with you on other threads so you know that I do! And I have posted several times on this thread to say that all forms of animal cruelty should be fought against - most posters have agreed on this thread too.
> 
> However, even if no-one had agreed, even if we supposed, for the sake of argument, the ridiculous situation that everyone ate factory farmed meat, wore cosmetics tested on animals etc etc but was against fox hunting - being against fox-hunting would still not be wrong. Two-faced, maybe, but not wrong. It cannot be wrong to be against one form of cruelty whatever else you do and believe in.


Spellweaver I have NOT for one moment dissed ANYTHING you have said, you have put everything across is a controlled and orderly manner! Has have many others!


----------



## Amethyst

Natik said:


> Footage of attack on hunt monitors released - politics.co.uk the video is on the bottom of the article


Dear me that footage is horrendous and shows tthe huntsman in a very bad light doesn't it 

You don't see this aspect of the hunt on Christmas cards and paintings 

Would that guy on a horse have pushed a man around like that, easy target I guess, a sixty odd year old woman  Brave lady.


----------



## ClaireLouise

momentofmadness said:


> Ive just been the kebab house and was stunned to see 100% halal meat.. where was my choice?


I wont eat the stuff its cruel....... Subway use Halal Meat


----------



## bellathemog

gorgeous said:


> veggie - you can have a veggie kebab.....


Salad in a pitta yummy me fave


----------



## Staysee

momentofmadness said:


> Oh I love Drag hunts..lol They are so much fun...
> 
> At the end of the day the dogs get fed a load of raw something of other not that nice to see.. as buckets of it are frown...
> And the whipper in has is loaded with titbits to keep the hounds in order..
> 
> And you still get d***heads trying to stop it..lol shouting from the side of the road out of their cars shouting how cruel you are and blocking the road up.. lol If only they had any idea at all... Plonkers!


Had to quote!

Im sure most people know what a drag hunt is, so no need to call us plonkers and call people dickheads for blocking roads.

The points antis are making is what the hunt is actually/originally intended for and what could "accidentally" happen on a drag hunt


----------



## bellathemog

ClaireLouise said:


> I wont eat the stuff its cruel....... Subway use Halal Meat


Subway does meat I wouldn't call that stuff meat that stick in that display unit


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> Ive just been the kebab house and was stunned to see 100% halal meat.. where was my choice?


I would NOT have given them my custom! and would have told em why - and the other customers too! if I had eaten meat that is!
T'is a discusting cruel evil practise and they should NOT be allowed to get away with it! but then I guess we blame our government for that and NOT sleeping lion!


----------



## Amethyst

Staysee said:


> Im sure most people know what a drag hunt is, so no need to call us plonkers and call people dickheads for blocking roads.


One can only presume they are of limited vocabulary and other things :crazy:


----------



## momentofmadness

Staysee said:


> Had to quote!
> 
> Im sure most people know what a drag hunt is, so no need to call us plonkers and call people dickheads for blocking roads.
> 
> The points antis are making is what the hunt is actually/originally intended for and what could "accidentally" happen on a drag hunt


Nah the point is there usually shouting a bout a poor fox.. when we are actually hunting the scent on the horses hooves.. really gets me it does... If people are anti at least educate yourselves when you go shouting at people or getting in the way.. and Im not at any point sayiung you do.. but seriously.. it happens a lot at drag hunts. They aren't bothered about the dogs or the horses...


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> i for one would FIGHT againt Hallah meat to the death if it stopped it!
> Infact I dont eat meat! (apart from a couple of brief slips) but still have to buy and cook it!


and i feel the same about foxhunting...........

and all other examples of animal abuse!

ty for opening the link Natik


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> One can only presume they are of limited vocabulary and other things :crazy:


haha I am of poor education.. lol only the uneducated swear you know.. haha...

And i stand by what I say! with my stars in my words..


----------



## Amethyst

Just read this referring to earler video posted ...

The League Against Cruel Sports has released footage of one of its monitors being attacked by a foxhunter.

The video, which is two and a half minutes long, shows hunt monitors being approached by several hunters who proceed to repeatedly knock the monitors over with their horses.

While verbally abusing them, the hunters eventually manage to knock Graham Forsyth, a hunt monitor for the league, into a ditch while verbally threatening his fellow monitor Helen Weeks.

Ms Weeks appears highly emotional in the video.

The perpetrator of the attack, huntsman Christopher Marles, has since been convicted of assault on Ms Weeks and faces a jail term when he is sentenced at Exeter crown court next month.


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would NOT have given them my custom! and would have told em why - and the other customers too! if I had eaten meat that is!
> T'is a discusting cruel evil practise and they should NOT be allowed to get away with it! but then I guess we blame our government for that and NOT sleeping lion!


I hadn't realised till i was just struggling to read.. (as I am of limited vocabulary) the menu.. that it said it on their...... I would not have realised.. Anyway I have indigestion now off my chicken wrap trying to keep up with this thread..:lol:


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> and i feel the same about foxhunting...........
> 
> and all other examples of animal abuse!
> 
> ty for opening the link Natik


Did you see where I have said otherwise about fox hunting Noush?
Because if you did show me!
I have NOT supported fox hunting on this thread!

I shall sit here and WAIT for that!


----------



## noushka05

Amethyst said:


> Dear me that footage is horrendous and shows tthe huntsman in a very bad light doesn't it
> 
> You don't see this aspect of the hunt on Christmas cards and paintings
> 
> Would that guy on a horse have pushed a man around like that, easy target I guess, a sixty odd year old woman  Brave lady.


its nasty int it!

that poor lady, my heart went out to her and her voice sort of reminded me of my own Mums.


----------



## Spellweaver

DoubleTrouble said:


> Spellweaver I have NOT for one moment dissed ANYTHING you have said, you have put everything across is a controlled and orderly manner! Has have many others!


Thanks hun - you did make me wonder if I had gone too far and got my rocket launcher out again :lol: (I can remember someone accusing me of blasting everyone with a rocket launcher once a long while ago but can't remember who and when and why - think it might have been Lauren but apologies to her if it wasn't!)

And Sleepinglion - I hope you don't think I'm ganging up on you - I've just been answering your posts with my own opinions (you've got me scared now DT :scared: :lol: )


----------



## Tapir

What I don't understand about this, is why it's perfectly acceptable for antis to throw abuse at pros calling them 'morons', 'smarmy', 'stuck up' etc
and yet we have been polite in debating, not getting nasty or personal.

Also, if you can generalise EVERY HUNT in the country, then we can generalise every anti as the aggressive, violent and law breaking sabs that we often see -even at lawful DRAG hunts. 
BUT WE DON'T.


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> Just read this referring to earler video posted ...
> 
> The League Against Cruel Sports has released footage of one of its monitors being attacked by a foxhunter.
> 
> The video, which is two and a half minutes long, shows hunt monitors being approached by several hunters who proceed to repeatedly knock the monitors over with their horses.
> 
> While verbally abusing them, the hunters eventually manage to knock Graham Forsyth, a hunt monitor for the league, into a ditch while verbally threatening his fellow monitor Helen Weeks.
> 
> Ms Weeks appears highly emotional in the video.
> 
> The perpetrator of the attack, huntsman Christopher Marles, has since been convicted of assault on Ms Weeks and faces a jail term when he is sentenced at Exeter crown court next month.


But we must remember there not all like this... Or should we just tar them with the same brush and chuck bricks at them all??


----------



## Guest

Spellweaver said:


> Thanks hun - you did make me wonder if I had gone too far and got my rocket launcher out again :lol: (I can remember someone accusing me of blasting everyone with a rocket launcher once a long while ago but can't remember who and when and why - think it might have been Lauren but apologies to her if it wasn't!)
> 
> And Sleepinglion - I hope you don't think I'm ganging up on you - I've just been answering your posts with my own opinions (you've got me scared now DT :scared: :lol: )


You mean you have MY rocket launcher!
you have continued to put the plight of the fox forward from start to finish! Spellweaver ! You have done so in such a way that no reasonable human being could ever agree with the atrocities that are commited against the fox!

However! the manner of SOME leave a lot to be desired! and that has and will continue to be my arguement!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Did you see where I have said otherwise about fox hunting Noush?
> Because if you did show me!
> I have NOT supported fox hunting on this thread!
> 
> I shall sit here and WAIT for that!


the point im making Sue is you dont seem to be debating against those who are trying to justify foxhunting, but you probably would if it was halal thread because you feel passionate about that subject.


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> You mean you have MY rocket launcher!
> you have continued to put the plight of the fox forward from start to finish! Spellweaver ! You have done so in such a way that no reasonable human being could ever agree with the atrocities that are commited against the fox!
> 
> However! the manner of SOME leave a lot to be desired! and that has and will continue to be my arguement!


yeah cause they are arguing.. But what are some doing about it?? (not the ones already posted)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

momentofmadness said:


> But we must remember there not all like this... Or should we just tar them with the same brush and chuck bricks at them all??


According to many who oppose hunting, yes, which is why I've been trying to debate the issue in a wider context. As soon as fox hunting is mentioned there's a big bucket of tar and a huge brush appears on the horizon.....


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> its nasty int it!
> 
> that poor lady, my heart went out to her and her voice sort of reminded me of my own Mums.


i'd like to see a man on a horse push me around
but seriously! that is bang out of order!


----------



## momentofmadness

Sleeping_Lion said:


> According to many who oppose hunting, yes, which is why I've been trying to debate the issue in a wider context. As soon as fox hunting is mentioned there's a big bucket of tar and a huge brush appears on the horizon.....


LOL what was that punishment tar and feathers... Come on people lets go and tar and feather all involved in hunting.. then let their horses and dogs loose to run free in the countryside cause they are locked in cages!


----------



## Tapir

http://www.politics.co.uk/press-releases/countryside-alliance-hunt-saboteurs-continue-acts-violence-despite-hunting-ban-$7967399.htm

It'd be a differant story if we came on here are said that all of you antis were the same as these thugs wouldn't it?
It's okay for you to generalise all of us though.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Saboteurs+arrested+after+hunt+violence.-a087367736

"Hounds were allegedly attacked in the violence which broke out an hour into the hunt."


----------



## momentofmadness

Sleeping_Lion said:


> According to many who oppose hunting, yes, which is why I've been trying to debate the issue in a wider context.


I understand what you are saying.. just as I said about the turkeys before.. no body took me on.. prob still feeling guilty after their turkey dinners...

But im two faced SL.. I eat chicken and Pork chop.. but I couldn't promise how it is sourced, and if I had to think about it.. I prob wouldn't eat it..just like when I was younger...

If ya remember I have a phobia of milk and raw meat.. yuck


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> According to many who oppose hunting, yes, which is why I've been trying to debate the issue in a wider context. As soon as fox hunting is mentioned there's a big bucket of tar and a huge brush appears on the horizon.....


Should have gone to specsavers!
Could be a simple diagnosis or 'tunneled vision'
or maybe rose coloured spec syndrome!
That said DT calls it a night and wishes you lot a good night!
Pray I wake up in the morning and this thread has GONE away! like so many more afore it!
xxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> LOL what was that punishment tar and feathers... Come on people lets go and tar and feather all involved in hunting.. then let their horses and dogs loose to run free in the countryside cause they are locked in cages!


And pro hunters wonder why they aren't taken seriously ...


----------



## Tapir

Amethyst said:


> And pro hunters wonder why they aren't taken seriously ...


Oh is this an aversion technique? Well I suppose I should know...


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> And pro hunters wonder why they aren't taken seriously ...


Am I a pro hunter.. ah yes... Pro drag hunter.. xxx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tapir said:


> http://www.politics.co.uk/press-releases/countryside-alliance-hunt-saboteurs-continue-acts-violence-despite-hunting-ban-$7967399.htm
> 
> It'd be a differant story if we came on here are said that all of you antis were the same as these thugs wouldn't it?
> It's okay for you to generalise all of us though.
> 
> Saboteurs arrested after hunt violence. - Free Online Library
> 
> "Hounds were allegedly attacked in the violence which broke out an hour into the hunt."


Not nice is it, it happens on both sides, but the general view seems to be that it's only the 'red coated, pompous obese toffs on horses' that are capable of inhumane acts. I actually don't know anyone who is involved with fox hunting, or drag hunting as it is now, that fits that description, btw.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeso :lol:

No one - well me - has a problem with drag hunting so long as the hounds are treated well, no foxes are caught and everything is kept within the limits of the law . 
This thread is about fox hunting! Not other types of hunting/shooting - although many have already said they have no problem with that so long as its done humanely! 
As for the old 'ohhhh you buy two chickens for a fiver you cant slag fox hunters!!!!' what. the. fcuk. Not everyone in this country can afford to spend 20 quid on a chicken unless its going to last them the whole month . Get real. I wouldnt tell people to starve because they cant afford free range food. Fox hunting is done for enjoyment (sorry, you havent convinced me otherwise) not to eat the fox. But hey i suppose the hounds get a few scraps out of it . And before anyone starts on me i'm a vegetarian so booooya :lol:.
Jesus people stop people so touchy :scared: what happened to the pink fluffiness of this thread :ciappa: x


----------



## Staysee

FINALLY CAUGHT UP OMG!!! HAHAH


I have apologised far far back in the thread for any generalizing i did about pro hunters....my problem is more aimed at the actual huntsment, yes im still annoyed at the supports cos i dont understand how anybody could support something like this?


People involved keep bringing up "Its tradition, we need to keep our traditions alive!"


OK, so if we're gonna keep this one alive then shall we bring back some other pastimes? Just because something is a tradition it doesnt mean its right or good in anyway!



Im friends with hunt supporters and actually have a great laugh with one a few days a week as i work with him, so not all hunt supporters are bad, out of the hunt issue....but if i saw him supporting a hunt, i probably wouldnt acknowledge him in that situation


----------



## momentofmadness

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeso :lol:
> 
> No one - well me - has a problem with drag hunting so long as the hounds are treated well, no foxes are caught and everything is kept within the limits of the law .
> This thread is about fox hunting! Not other types of hunting/shooting - although many have already said they have no problem with that so long as its done humanely!
> As for the old 'ohhhh you buy two chickens for a fiver you cant slag fox hunters!!!!' what. the. fcuk. Not everyone in this country can afford to spend 20 quid on a chicken unless its going to last them the whole month . Get real. I wouldnt tell people to starve because they cant afford free range food. Fox hunting is done for enjoyment (sorry, you havent convinced me otherwise) not to eat the fox. But hey i suppose the hounds get a few scraps out of it . And before anyone starts on me i'm a vegetarian so booooya :lol:.
> Jesus people stop people so touchy :scared: what happened to the pink fluffiness of this thread :ciappa: x


:lol: it just vanished..


----------



## momentofmadness

Staysee said:


> FINALLY CAUGHT UP OMG!!! HAHAH
> 
> I have apologised far far back in the thread for any generalizing i did about pro hunters....my problem is more aimed at the actual huntsment, yes im still annoyed at the supports cos i dont understand how anybody could support something like this?
> 
> People involved keep bringing up "Its tradition, we need to keep our traditions alive!"
> 
> OK, so if we're gonna keep this one alive then shall we bring back some other pastimes? Just because something is a tradition it doesnt mean its right or good in anyway!
> 
> Im friends with hunt supporters and actually have a great laugh with one a few days a week as i work with him, so not all hunt supporters are bad, out of the hunt issue....but if i saw him supporting a hunt, i probably wouldnt acknowledge him in that situation


and well done for being open minded.. doesn't seem to many people around here with an open mind..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeso :lol:
> 
> No one - well me - has a problem with drag hunting so long as the hounds are treated well, no foxes are caught and everything is kept within the limits of the law .
> This thread is about fox hunting! Not other types of hunting/shooting - although many have already said they have no problem with that so long as its done humanely!
> As for the old 'ohhhh you buy two chickens for a fiver you cant slag fox hunters!!!!' what. the. fcuk. *Not everyone in this country can afford to spend 20 quid on a chicken unless its going to last them the whole month . Get real. I wouldnt tell people to starve because they cant afford free range food.* Fox hunting is done for enjoyment (sorry, you havent convinced me otherwise) not to eat the fox. But hey i suppose the hounds get a few scraps out of it . And before anyone starts on me i'm a vegetarian so booooya :lol:.
> Jesus people stop people so touchy :scared: what happened to the pink fluffiness of this thread :ciappa: x


Still pink and fluffy here, but really? Because this is the crux of what I was trying to point towards. We can hardly stuff our faces with cruelly reared and slaughtered animals, and then say, we can't hunt foxes because it's cruel.

People have never had it so good, we have season round food that we'd never have been able to buy before, and we have cheap meat. Meat, and specifically chicken, used to be much more expensive, because it takes longer to mature and taste nice, that is, until the Americans gave us our fast growing hugely meaty chickens. And then we have growth hormones thank goodness, so we can get quicker, faster growing chickens with more meat on them.

We have a population suffering from obesity and health problems, and yet we're willing to condone two for a fiver chickens so we can stuff our faces (all in the royal sense btw, not pointed at any one in particular).

What a sad state of affairs.


----------



## Staysee

momentofmadness said:


> and well done for being open minded.. doesn't seem to many people around here with an open mind..


I did see red at the start of the thread and since apologised

But i wont ever open my mind to fox hunting....but i wont stop being friends with someone cos they support it, cos the guy i work with is such a laugh

I dont NOT [sorry for double negative] agree with drag hunting, just what its in place of "for the mean time" basically.


----------



## Waterlily

damn leave a few hours and miss the entertainment


----------



## momentofmadness

Staysee said:


> I did see red at the start of the thread and since apologised
> 
> But i wont ever open my mind to fox hunting....but i wont stop being friends with someone cos they support it, cos the guy i work with is such a laugh
> 
> I dont NOT [sorry for double negative] agree with drag hunting, just what its in place of "for the mean time" basically.


Well kids have been drag hunting for many moons as its safer..


----------



## Staysee

momentofmadness said:


> Well kids have been drag hunting for many moons as its safer..


Like i said, im not against drag hunting....its what the hunt was originally intended for


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Still pink and fluffy here, but really? Because this is the crux of what I was trying to point towards. We can hardly stuff our faces with cruelly reared and slaughtered animals, and then say, we can't hunt foxes because it's cruel.
> 
> People have never had it so good, we have season round food that we'd never have been able to buy before, and we have cheap meat. Meat, and specifically chicken, used to be much more expensive, because it takes longer to mature and taste nice, that is, until the Americans gave us our fast growing hugely meaty chickens. And then we have growth hormones thank goodness, so we can get quicker, faster growing chickens with more meat on them.
> 
> We have a population suffering from obesity and health problems, and yet we're willing to condone two for a fiver chickens so we can stuff our faces (all in the royal sense btw, not pointed at any one in particular).
> 
> What a sad state of affairs.


I'm not condoning it - hence why im a veggie  - but tbh i've never seen two chickens for a fiver ? So how much does a free range chicken cost for the average person? I just can't see how it can be compared to fox hunting, especially when this thread isn't about battery hens, which i've already said I don't agree with.


----------



## Spellweaver

Staysee said:


> yes im still annoyed at the supports cos i dont understand how anybody could support something like this?


I agree - this is how I feel too. I know that not all huntsmen are as dreadful as the ones on videos on here, and so I don't tar all huntsmen and supporters with that brush. But I feel that anyone who supports a hunt in any way is turning a blind eye to the cruelty that is rife within fox-hunting, and is therefore guilty by association. I don't understand how someone can pretend to themselves that just because it's not happening in their hunt, or that they haven't actually witnessed it when it happens, that somehow makes it ok. I don't understand how someone can come up with all sorts of silly reasons (like the racist one) to try to excuse their involvement. I don't understand how anyone could be part of it and not fight against it.

What was it we used to say in the sixties? If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


----------



## momentofmadness

Staysee said:


> Like i said, im not against drag hunting....its what the hunt was originally intended for


Gawd.. I should stop playing tetris.. I read it as you dont agree with drag? Im just seeing shapes not words.. :lol:


----------



## Spellweaver

Waterlily said:


> damn leave a few hours and miss the entertainment


Heh heh - look at the size of you now with eating all that popcorn!!!! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Staysee

Spellweaver said:


> I agree - this is how I feel too. I know that not all huntsmen are as dreadful as the ones on videos on here, and so I don't tar all huntsmen and supporters with that brush. But I feel that anyone who supports a hunt in any way is turning a blind eye to the cruelty that is rife within fox-hunting, and is therefore guilty by association. I don't understand how someone can pretend to themselves that just because it's not happening in their hunt, or that they haven't actually witnessed it when it happens, that somehow makes it ok. I don't understand how someone can come up with all sorts of silly reasons (like the racist one) to try to excuse their involvement. I don't understand how anyone could be part of it and not fight against it.
> 
> *What was it we used to say in the sixties? If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.*


If only i wasnt born in the 80's then i would whole heartedly agree with that bit bolded


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'm not condoning it - hence why im a veggie  - but tbh i've never seen two chickens for a fiver ? So how much does a free range chicken cost for the average person? I just can't see how it can be compared to fox hunting, especially when this thread isn't about battery hens, which i've already said I don't agree with.


Two for a fiver chickens are available from many supermarkets, well, less than 'super'markets. Why can't it be compared to fox hunting? It's cruel, if people think fox hunting is cruel, which happens less frequently, why do we still have a huge industry supporting cruel and inhuman animal rearing and slaughtering for our benefit, and yet splutter feathers at the mere mention of fox hunting?

A corn fed free range chicken costs about £7-8 (ish) from memory, I dunno tbh, I don't buy them from supermarkets, I buy what I need from the butchers now, who only use good local suppliers.


----------



## Staysee

momentofmadness said:


> Gawd.. I should stop playing tetris.. I read it as you dont agree with drag? Im just seeing shapes not words.. :lol:


Aslong as drag hunting doesnt end up with a fox being injured or killed, ok....but i would prefer it if they could find other ways to socilise.....


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Still pink and fluffy here, but really? Because this is the crux of what I was trying to point towards. We can hardly stuff our faces with cruelly reared and slaughtered animals, and then say, we can't hunt foxes because it's cruel.


Just re-posting what I have already replied to you on this, cos you don't seem to have seen it. 

I have posted several times on this thread to say that all forms of animal cruelty should be fought against - most posters have agreed on this thread too.

However, even if no-one had agreed, even if we supposed, for the sake of argument, the ridiculous situation that everyone ate factory farmed meat, wore cosmetics tested on animals etc etc but was against fox hunting - being against fox-hunting would still not be wrong. Two-faced, maybe, but not wrong. It cannot be wrong to be against one form of cruelty whatever else you do and believe in.


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Two for a fiver chickens are available from many supermarkets, well, less than 'super'markets. Why can't it be compared to fox hunting? It's cruel, if people think fox hunting is cruel, which happens less frequently, why do we still have a huge industry supporting cruel and inhuman animal rearing and slaughtering for our benefit, and yet splutter feathers at the mere mention of fox hunting?
> 
> A corn fed free range chicken costs about £7-8 (ish) from memory, I dunno tbh, I don't buy them from supermarkets, I buy what I need from the butchers now, who only use good local suppliers.


You forgot danish bacon! infact ANY pork product farmed in the EU! I would NOT touch this prior to ceasing eating meat! and anyone that does is guilty of animal cruelty!


----------



## Tapir

Tapir said:


> http://www.politics.co.uk/press-releases/countryside-alliance-hunt-saboteurs-continue-acts-violence-despite-hunting-ban-$7967399.htm
> 
> It'd be a differant story if we came on here are said that all of you antis were the same as these thugs wouldn't it?
> It's okay for you to generalise all of us though.
> 
> Saboteurs arrested after hunt violence. - Free Online Library
> 
> "Hounds were allegedly attacked in the violence which broke out an hour into the hunt."





Tapir said:


> What I don't understand about this, is why it's perfectly acceptable for antis to throw abuse at pros calling them 'morons', 'smarmy', 'stuck up' etc
> and yet we have been polite in debating, not getting nasty or personal.
> 
> Also, if you can generalise EVERY HUNT in the country, then we can generalise every anti as the aggressive, violent and law breaking sabs that we often see -even at lawful DRAG hunts.
> BUT WE DON'T.


Just bumping


----------



## momentofmadness

Tapir said:


> Just bumping


You wont get an answer..


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> You forgot danish bacon! infact ANY pork product farmed in the EU! I would NOT touch this prior to ceasing eating meat! and anyone that does is guilty of animal cruelty!


Guilty of animal cruetly for eating meat?

Maybe some people arnt so well educated in the meat eating world
Maybe some just dont have the money to get real good ethinical food

Not everyone can be perfect, along as everyone tries thier best to not support the bad ways of slaughter, raising and caging animals etc then surely they are doing the best they can?

If all someone can afford that week if a cheap [excuse the pun] chicken which probably didnt have the best life, so they have after extra few quid for the meter to keep the house warm, then let them

You cant judge someone like that, aslong as they arnt actively going out of thier way to support animal cruelty, let them be, im sure they dont mean it


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Spellweaver said:


> Just re-posting what I have already replied to you on this, cos you don't seem to have seen it.
> 
> I have posted several times on this thread to say that all forms of animal cruelty should be fought against - most posters have agreed on this thread too.
> 
> However, even if no-one had agreed, even if we supposed, for the sake of argument, the ridiculous situation that everyone ate factory farmed meat, wore cosmetics tested on animals etc etc but was against fox hunting - being against fox-hunting would still not be wrong. Two-faced, maybe, but not wrong. It cannot be wrong to be against one form of cruelty whatever else you do and believe in.


Hun, I know you're opposed to all forms of cruelty, as is Noushka (edited to add and Natik and a couple of others I've probably missed initially), goes without saying (I hope) on these threads 

But no, I can't agree with the two faced bit, animals suffer just because it fits our lifestyle? I think that's actually more perverse than having an issue with cruelty that doesnt' affect our lifestyle tbh.


----------



## Tapir

Staysee said:


> Aslong as drag hunting doesnt end up with a fox being injured or killed, ok....but i would prefer it if they could find other ways to socilise.....


Why? why should they find other ways to socialise if no one is getting hurt? I don't understand? Not having a go, just don't understand the reasoning.


----------



## gorgeous

DAIRY!!!!!!

Look at how milk and dairy products get into the supermarkets!! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK!

Have a good old google, and read about it...look at what they are planning to do in order to save a few pennies...go on go on...go google, go read,,,,,,DISGUSTING DISGUSTING

Fox hunting is also cruel.


----------



## Tapir

gorgeous said:


> DAIRY!!!!!!
> 
> Look at how milk and dairy products get into the supermarkets!! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK!
> 
> Have a good old google, and read about it...look at what they are planning to do in order to save a few pennies...go on go on...go google, go read,,,,,,DISGUSTING DISGUSTING
> 
> Fox hunting is also cruel.


Nocton Farm -


----------



## momentofmadness

gorgeous said:


> DAIRY!!!!!!
> 
> Look at how milk and dairy products get into the supermarkets!! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK!
> 
> Have a good old google, and read about it...look at what they are planning to do in order to save a few pennies...go on go on...go google, go read,,,,,,DISGUSTING DISGUSTING
> 
> Fox hunting is also cruel.


I have a very weird thing about milk.. I guess I shouldn't look.. And you know when its coming out of a cow in the dairy it smells so much different to the milk in ya pint..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> DAIRY!!!!!!
> 
> Look at how milk and dairy products get into the supermarkets!! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK!
> 
> Have a good old google, and read about it...look at what they are planning to do in order to save a few pennies...go on go on...go google, go read,,,,,,DISGUSTING DISGUSTING
> 
> Fox hunting is also cruel.


Just as an aside, did you see the Panorama programme about massive dairy factories, sickening


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Guilty of animal cruetly for eating meat?
> 
> Maybe some people arnt so well educated in the meat eating world
> Maybe some just dont have the money to get real good ethinical food
> 
> Not everyone can be perfect, along as everyone tries thier best to not support the bad ways of slaughter, raising and caging animals etc then surely they are doing the best they can?
> 
> If all someone can afford that week if a cheap [excuse the pun] chicken which probably didnt have the best life, so they have after extra few quid for the meter to keep the house warm, then let them
> 
> You cant judge someone like that, aslong as they arnt actively going out of thier way to support animal cruelty, let them be, im sure they dont mean it


I would rather starve then have eaten a battery farmed hen or egg! I still have to buy meat you know! But I check every pack I buy! The meat industry are very clever at covering up their atrocities!!!!

And for you information I aint a supporter of fox hunting either! Before you quote me next! remember There are some of us on here that dont take sh*t from them with two standards!!! I am one of them!


----------



## Staysee

Tapir said:


> Just bumping


I dont see where in this thread where an anti has said its ok for other antis to throw abuse like that

Just that i can see why they would

My problem is calling the antis the above cos you dont think they understand, the are stupid, they dont agree with the so called tradition etc


----------



## Guest

I only buy from my butchers which is free range meats from local farms.

I dont buy eggs....as I dont eat them.

My milk comes from my milkman who owns the dairy farm which is also free range/organic.

I admit I have eaten cheap meats in the past at other people's houses and at christmas ate a hallal turkey because my mums OH is a muslim....

I went to the butchers last week and spent £50 on chicken breasts and steak, that you could pick up for £10/£15 at the supermarket.

I am fortunate to have a good relationship with my butcher and my milk man and live in a area that has access to these items...when I lived in Preston the local milkman delivered milk that he didnt even know if it was free range or if it was from the local supermarket his answer to me when I asked was "I dont know, I just get paid to drop it on the door step and collect money".

Charming....

I dont agree with the mistreatment of any animal weather that be dog, fox or pig...It killed me christmas day to eat that turkey because I do not agree iwth it at all and my mums OH said "Its killed the exact same way as others just prayed on...and the way its kept while alive is fine"....
:scared:


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> I only buy from my butchers which is free range meats from local farms.
> 
> I dont buy eggs....as I dont eat them.
> 
> My milk comes from my milkman who owns the dairy farm which is also free range/organic.
> 
> I admit I have eaten cheap meats in the past at other people's houses and at christmas ate a hallal turkey because my mums OH is a muslim....
> 
> I went to the butchers last week and spent £50 on chicken breasts and steak, that you could pick up for £10/£15 at the supermarket.
> 
> I am fortunate to have a good relationship with my butcher and my milk man and live in a area that has access to these items...when I lived in Preston the local milkman delivered milk that he didnt even know if it was free range or if it was from the local supermarket his answer to me when I asked was "I dont know, I just get paid to drop it on the door step and collect money".
> 
> Charming....
> 
> I dont agree with the mistreatment of any animal weather that be dog, fox or pig...It killed me christmas day to eat that turkey because I do not agree iwth it at all and my mums OH said "Its killed the exact same way as others just prayed on...and the way its kept while alive is fine"....
> :scared:


you sound very much like myself!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

DoubleTrouble said:


> you sound very much like myself!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Now DT, I really should report that sort of insulting behaviour :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Now DT, I really should report that sort of insulting behaviour :lol: :lol: :lol:


Erm! I havn't even started with the insults yet! but don't hold your breathe:scared::scared::scared::scared:


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> you sound very much like myself!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


:thumbup::thumbup:

Gah my computer is ******* up....will restart and come back on.


----------



## Tapir

Staysee said:


> I dont see where in this thread where an anti has said its ok for other antis to throw abuse like that
> 
> Just that i can see why they would
> 
> My problem is calling the antis the above cos you dont think they understand, the are stupid, they dont agree with the so called tradition etc


They haven't 'said' thet it's okay, but they have continued to do it. I don't see why you see why they would call them names like pompous, stuck up etc.
I don't remember seeing anywhere the pros calling them stupid?
There is no denying that pros have been civilised in their discussion...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

DoubleTrouble said:


> Erm! I havn't even started with the insults yet! but don't hold your breathe:scared::scared::scared::scared:


Partly what I'm worried about!!  :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Tapir

DoubleTrouble said:


> you sound very much like myself!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


God, no need to be rude...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

edit: sl beat me to it!


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would rather starve then have eaten a battery farmed hen or egg! I still have to buy meat you know! But I check every pack I buy! The meat industry are very clever at covering up their atrocities!!!!
> 
> And for you information I aint a supporter of fox hunting either! Before you quote me next! remember There are some of us on here that dont take sh*t from them with two standards!!! I am one of them!


Not everyone can spend out on free range great eggs, some have to buy the cheapest they can, not all have money.....yes itd be better if they bought free range and really sourced thier food more....but not all have that leisure or can afford it

I never said you were a supporter of fox hunting anyway :S

I simply understand how some families cant afford to be picky.....me and my family arnt exactly in the right place moneywise to be picky....but luckily we found a local farmer whose chickens are so free range im jealous, they have more independance then me XD And she's not expensive and the eggs are stunning!!!

As for meat products, i am more then happy to eat quorn and other "vegetarian" products, i love rice and pata and veg, as a family we have meat once or twice a week and its normally from a butchers as a treat or we make sure its a free range chicken if its from the supermarket


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hun, I know you're opposed to all forms of cruelty, as is Noushka (edited to add and Natik and a couple of others I've probably missed initially), goes without saying (I hope) on these threads
> 
> But no, I can't agree with the two faced bit, animals suffer just because it fits our lifestyle? I think that's actually more perverse than having an issue with cruelty that doesnt' affect our lifestyle tbh.


It's the two sets of standards that I am strugling with!
Noush! well there is no one like Noush! she has taught me a lot - but some folk on here need to look in their own pantry before they get their knickers in a twist! 
I know I may NOT be perfect!! but I am 99 bl%%dy percent!!! some of these muppets are a joke!


----------



## momentofmadness

Tapir said:


> They haven't 'said' thet it's okay, but they have continued to do it. I don't see why you see why they would call them names like pompous, stuck up etc.
> I don't remember seeing anywhere the pros calling them stupid?
> There is no denying that pros have been civilised in their discussion...


Apparently there is evidence of me calling people who have been to the hunt I have gone and they have caused kaos... I have called em on here and they aren't here to defend themselves.. whoops shame on me.. :lol:


----------



## Staysee

Tapir said:


> They haven't 'said' thet it's okay, but they have continued to do it. I don't see why you see why they would call them names like pompous, stuck up etc.
> I don't remember seeing anywhere the pros calling them stupid?
> There is no denying that pros have been civilised in their discussion...


I have seen one pro calling antis stupid, but i wont name who.

I havent called anyone pompous or stuck up, but when you think of hunting thats the general idea of who takes part....cos, im guessing....back in the old old days of hunting, only the richer people took part, hence the reasoning for it?

No ones been civilised in the convo, i dont think the hunting debate can ever be civilised....but just as us antis need to stop generalizing about pros, the pros need to stop generalizing that all antis are name callers and will take any oppourtunity to bash the pros [and the animals in some cases]


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> It's the two sets of standards that I am strugling with!
> Noush! well there is no one like Noush! she has taught me a lot - but some folk on here need to look in their own pantry before they get their knickers in a twist!
> I know I may NOT be perfect!! but I am 99 bl%%dy percent!!! some of these muppets are a joke!


I hope this post isnt in reference to me.....just seems a coincidence

So if it is, please say, i'd rather you did


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> Not everyone can spend out on free range great eggs, some have to buy the cheapest they can, not all have money.....yes itd be better if they bought free range and really sourced thier food more....but not all have that leisure or can afford it
> 
> I never said you were a supporter of fox hunting anyway :S
> 
> I simply understand how some families cant afford to be picky.....me and my family arnt exactly in the right place moneywise to be picky....but luckily we found a local farmer whose chickens are so free range im jealous, they have more independance then me XD And she's not expensive and the eggs are stunning!!!
> 
> As for meat products, i am more then happy to eat quorn and other "vegetarian" products, i love rice and pata and veg, as a family we have meat once or twice a week and its normally from a butchers as a treat or we make sure its a free range chicken if its from the supermarket


Sorry hun, but yes they do. Cheap cuts from the butcher can be much better value, but because of the society we live in, people want cheap products, and that involves meat and animal produce. Not every one, but many, unfortunately, view this as a necessary evil, and it really isn't.

Go back twenty or thirty years, and we didn't eat chicken as much, and hardly ate meat, or the types of cuts of meat that we do now, we were much less fussy. Now we want our food to be almost ready on a plate for us, the less fuss the better, and the less to remind us this was once a living breathing creature the better. Somewhere along the line we have lost respect for animals, and that has nothing to do with hunting or shooting, that's to do with progress. I really wish everyone (including those involved with hunting and shooting) had respect for animals, sadly they don't


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> It's the two sets of standards that I am strugling with!
> Noush! well there is no one like Noush! she has taught me a lot - but some folk on here need to look in their own pantry before they get their knickers in a twist!
> I know I may NOT be perfect!! but I am 99 bl%%dy percent!!! some of these muppets are a joke!


Which muppets are you naming on here?


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> I have seen one pro calling antis stupid, but i wont name who.
> 
> I havent called anyone pompous or stuck up, but when you think of hunting thats the general idea of who takes part....cos, im guessing....back in the old old days of hunting, only the richer people took part, hence the reasoning for it?
> 
> No ones been civilised in the convo, i dont think the hunting debate can ever be civilised....but just as us antis need to stop generalizing about pros, the pros need to stop generalizing that all antis are name callers and will take any oppourtunity to bash the pros [and the animals in some cases]


Erm! how do you think poor folk lived i the old days! don't tell me! they went to mac donalds!:scared::scared:


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Not everyone can spend out on free range great eggs, some have to buy the cheapest they can, not all have money.....yes itd be better if they bought free range and really sourced thier food more....but not all have that leisure or can afford it
> 
> I never said you were a supporter of fox hunting anyway :S
> 
> I simply understand how some families cant afford to be picky.....me and my family arnt exactly in the right place moneywise to be picky....but luckily we found a local farmer whose chickens are so free range im jealous, they have more independance then me XD And she's not expensive and the eggs are stunning!!!
> 
> As for meat products, i am more then happy to eat quorn and other "vegetarian" products, i love rice and pata and veg, as a family we have meat once or twice a week and its normally from a butchers as a treat or we make sure its a free range chicken if its from the supermarket


I am not very fortunate money wise and am on benefits which I will openly admit.

However I have made sure that I have money by....

1) Not doing what my friends have done and have 3 children at the age of 20 while nor parent works. I have a friend that lied about being pregnant again so she could get money to "buy things for the baby" which she wasnt carrying, needless to say she was found out.

2) I go to local farms to find out what they do, my uncle used to run a farm up the road from me and they did free range eggs cheaper than supermarket battery eggs.

3) I dont buy in loads of junk foods as a whole chicken from the butchers will do me and my OH for tea one night and dinner the next. (My OH is 20 stone so you can imagine he does eat ALOT).

4) Make it last.....I buy a kilo of chicken breasts for £8 from my butcher and I use peppers, onions, mushrooms and rice and make a stir fry which lasts us both for 2 meals each.

Just options people dont think about, 
I have a friend who thinks its less effort to stick a £4 ready meal in the microwave and lasts 1 meal when just spend some time and you can have 4 meals done in one go.

Not saying all but I know people who do that....my mum's one of them as she finds it easy as she has children.


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Which muppets are you naming on here?


Well I reckon you could be one!


----------



## Tapir

Staysee said:


> I have seen one pro calling antis stupid, but i wont name who.
> 
> I havent called anyone pompous or stuck up, but when you think of hunting thats the general idea of who takes part....cos, im guessing....back in the old old days of hunting, only the richer people took part, hence the reasoning for it?
> 
> No ones been civilised in the convo, i dont think the hunting debate can ever be civilised....but just as us antis need to stop generalizing about pros, the pros need to stop generalizing that all antis are name callers and will take any oppourtunity to bash the pros [and the animals in some cases]


Well no...I'm not pompous or stuck up, and it has been said previously...and they are derogatory terms.

Where has an pro said that?


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I reckon you could be one!


Really why is that then


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> I hope this post isnt in reference to me.....just seems a coincidence
> 
> So if it is, please say, i'd rather you did


Yep! Id say you have two sets of standards!


----------



## Tapir

And staysee, what were the reasons fro you wanting drag hunters to find something else to do with their time?


----------



## gorgeous

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I reckon you could be one!


don't beat around the bush will ya?:lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

gorgeous said:


> don't beat around the bush will ya?:lol:


:lol: looks like she is about to beat someone with her bush.. :lol:


----------



## Tapir

momentofmadness said:


> :lol: looks like she is about to beat someone with her bush.. :lol:


:scared: :eek6:


----------



## Staysee

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry hun, but yes they do. Cheap cuts from the butcher can be much better value, but because of the society we live in, people want cheap products, and that involves meat and animal produce. Not every one, but many, unfortunately, view this as a necessary evil, and it really isn't.
> 
> Go back twenty or thirty years, and we didn't eat chicken as much, and hardly ate meat, or the types of cuts of meat that we do now, we were much less fussy. Now we want our food to be almost ready on a plate for us, the less fuss the better, and the less to remind us this was once a living breathing creature the better. Somewhere along the line we have lost respect for animals, and that has nothing to do with hunting or shooting, that's to do with progress. I really wish everyone (including those involved with hunting and shooting) had respect for animals, sadly they don't


My apologies....i dont run my own home yet or often visit the butcher.....i work in a supermarket bakery.

You cant say all familys want less fuss food, we're far from it now, the fresher the better in our family.....altho the freshest food is either alive or from a local farm and we cant afford those prices or have the right enviroment for our own animals [or the money to keep them]

So we do all our best with what we can and where we can to get the best food possible, as free range and organic as possible too


----------



## Guest

gorgeous said:


> don't beat around the bush will ya?:lol:


dont see the point myself! if the cap fits wear it! and they did ask!!
I have no idea if they are or not but if they have to ask then there must be some doubt!

Seriously! do you see me asking!!
Am I a muppet!
lmfao!
xxxx


----------



## hawksport

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry hun, but yes they do. Cheap cuts from the butcher can be much better value, but because of the society we live in, people want cheap products, and that involves meat and animal produce. Not every one, but many, unfortunately, view this as a necessary evil, and it really isn't.
> 
> Go back twenty or thirty years, and we didn't eat chicken as much, and hardly ate meat, or the types of cuts of meat that we do now, we were much less fussy. Now we want our food to be almost ready on a plate for us, the less fuss the better, and the less to remind us this was once a living breathing creature the better. Somewhere along the line we have lost respect for animals, and that has nothing to do with hunting or shooting, that's to do with progress. I really wish everyone (including those involved with hunting and shooting) had respect for animals, sadly they don't


Tonight I've been where I grew up as a kid. Back then there were 1 or 2 cars on the streets because most people couldn't afford a car, but no one starved. Now there are 2 cars outside nearly every house. You can't tell me people can't afford to buy real meat these days


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Erm! how do you think poor folk lived i the old days! don't tell me! they went to mac donalds!:scared::scared:


OLDE MacDonalds


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> dont see the point myself! if the cap fits wear it! and they did ask!!
> I have no idea if they are or not but if they have to ask then there must be some doubt!
> 
> Seriously! do you see me asking!!
> Am I a muppet!
> lmfao!
> xxxx


You called me a muppet

so best you do the right thing and explain

ya know like an adult


----------



## Staysee

shetlandlover said:


> I am not very fortunate money wise and am on benefits which I will openly admit.
> 
> However I have made sure that I have money by....
> 
> 1) Not doing what my friends have done and have 3 children at the age of 20 while nor parent works. I have a friend that lied about being pregnant again so she could get money to "buy things for the baby" which she wasnt carrying, needless to say she was found out.
> 
> 2) I go to local farms to find out what they do, my uncle used to run a farm up the road from me and they did free range eggs cheaper than supermarket battery eggs.
> 
> 3) I dont buy in loads of junk foods as a whole chicken from the butchers will do me and my OH for tea one night and dinner the next. (My OH is 20 stone so you can imagine he does eat ALOT).
> 
> 4) Make it last.....I buy a kilo of chicken breasts for £8 from my butcher and I use peppers, onions, mushrooms and rice and make a stir fry which lasts us both for 2 meals each.
> 
> Just options people dont think about,
> *I have a friend who thinks its less effort to stick a £4 ready meal in the microwave and lasts 1 meal when just spend some time and you can have 4 meals done in one go.*
> 
> Not saying all but I know people who do that....my mum's one of them as she finds it easy as she has children.


I know plenty like that too, wether people find it easy or its cheaper for them, its thier choice.....doesnt mean they support animal abuse


----------



## Staysee

Tapir said:


> Well no...I'm not pompous or stuck up, and it has been said previously...and they are derogatory terms.
> 
> Where has an pro said that?


I've said im not going to name who, as i dont want to be accused of ganging up in anyway, shape or form


----------



## Waterlily

momentofmadness said:


> :lol: looks like she is about to beat someone with her bush.. :lol:


:scared: :scared: well run for the mountains  avoid the bush :scared:

edited for the anal


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> You called me a muppet
> 
> so best you do the right thing and explain
> 
> ya know like an adult


If you have to ask if you are a muppet then YOU must have some reason to believe that!!!! now build a bridge and cross it!

Because I am neither an adult NOR reasonable!


----------



## gorgeous

WHen peeps buy meat from supermarket, it aint what it seems. Might be cheap but then there is a reason. The meat is ****! Has been pumped full of growth hormones, water added, stack of salt and fat from unidentified objects.....

Might pay more for organically free ranged reared BUT you will need a lot less and you have clear consciences that animal had good life and you are feeding yourself and family much finer fodder.:thumbup:


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> If you have to ask if you are a muppet then YOU must have some reason to believe that!!!! now build a bridge and cross it!
> 
> Because *I am neither an adult* NOR reasonable!


:lol: :lol: me either actually


----------



## gorgeous

Liked ya new hair do!:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

Really didnt want a fanny in my face when I came on this thread. 
:lol:


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep! Id say you have two sets of standards!


Why?

Cos i understand not every single person in the UK can afford to buy the best food?

Have you not seen shops like.....iceland [im taking a wild guess] who offer tons of cheap cheap food, which would seem easier to get then getting a fresher chicken and making your own tea, instead of sticking it in the microwave

Altho i do know some people, who arnt on the best of moneys who do try to buy the best for themselves and thier family, so im not saying all people on less money are bad


----------



## Staysee

Tapir said:


> And staysee, what were the reasons fro you wanting drag hunters to find something else to do with their time?


Mainly because of the "accidents" that occasionally may happen....not saying they happen every drag hunt, im sure they dont.....but it happens....plus for the protection of pets


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> If you have to ask if you are a muppet then YOU must have some reason to believe that!!!! now build a bridge and cross it!
> 
> Because I am neither an adult NOR reasonable!


So you call me a name and can't explain why

that is fecking funny

At school did you name call then run off to hide?

If I called someone a piece of cloth with someone hand up it's arse I'd explain why I called em that

But I guess some can't


----------



## Tapir

Staysee said:


> Mainly because of the "accidents" that occasionally may happen....not saying they happen every drag hunt, im sure they dont.....but it happens....plus for the protection of pets


I see, thanks for answering


----------



## hawksport

Stop quoting waterlilly seeing that once is enough


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Two for a fiver chickens are available from many supermarkets, well, less than 'super'markets. Why can't it be compared to fox hunting? It's cruel, if people think fox hunting is cruel, which happens less frequently, why do we still have a huge industry supporting cruel and inhuman animal rearing and slaughtering for our benefit, and yet splutter feathers at the mere mention of fox hunting?
> 
> A corn fed free range chicken costs about £7-8 (ish) from memory, I dunno tbh, I don't buy them from supermarkets, I buy what I need from the butchers now, who only use good local suppliers.


Ahh . See I don't eat meat so i'm unsure of prices ect, i've watched programmes ect about battery hens and the like and it made me feel sick to my stomach! I agree with you, it's horrible and it's sad that not everyone can pay that extra few quid but i do think some people simply can't afford it, others are unaware of the hell the poor animals go through and others just simply don't give a hoot sadly . Remember not everyones animal lovers. It's a horrible industry but your asking the wrong person. I don't eat meat and I disagree with fox hunting. Just because I think fox hunting is horrible doesn't mean I don't think other animal cruelties are horrible - dog fighting ect ect. It just so happens that we're talking about fox hunting here. Sorry if i caused any offence lol, I am genuinely interested about the pricing ect. Seems to me like the likes of tesco and asda ect need to get their act together .


----------



## Natik

is there a need to post such pictures, we all know it will cause the thread to be closed and deleted. And there are kids on here too


----------



## gorgeous

Staysee said:


> Why?
> 
> Cos i understand not every single person in the UK can afford to buy the best food?
> 
> Have you not seen shops like.....iceland [im taking a wild guess] who offer tons of cheap cheap food, which would seem easier to get then getting a fresher chicken and making your own tea, instead of sticking it in the microwave
> 
> Altho i do know some people, who arnt on the best of moneys who do try to buy the best for themselves and thier family, so im not saying all people on less money are bad


The best food in the UK aint necessarily the most expensive......in season fruit and veg for instance if far fresher, tastier and cheaper than imported versions,,,,and some of the cheaper cuts of meat are just as good ie chicken thighs instead of breast,,,,,etc, etc, etc....


----------



## Tapir

hawksport said:


> Stop quoting waterlilly seeing that once is enough


and I hate to be a kill joy, but there are under 16's on this thread...bit inappropriate.

Oh aren't I party pooper


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Why?
> 
> Cos i understand not every single person in the UK can afford to buy the best food?
> 
> Have you not seen shops like.....iceland [im taking a wild guess] who offer tons of cheap cheap food, which would seem easier to get then getting a fresher chicken and making your own tea, instead of sticking it in the microwave
> 
> Altho i do know some people, who arnt on the best of moneys who do try to buy the best for themselves and thier family, so im not saying all people on less money are bad


Staysee
I am not a supporter of the hunt! and have said so throughout this thread! Also it is NOT really about cheap meat but fox hunting! but there are those that have plenty to say on one score yet are prepared to turn a blind eye on another form of cruelty! Good members with good morals have been hounded merely for stating their opinion!!!
Now I am back to extracting urine!!


----------



## gorgeous

It is only a womans anatomy!


----------



## Inca's Mum

Staysee said:


> Mainly because of the "accidents" that occasionally may happen....not saying they happen every drag hunt, im sure they dont.....but it happens....plus for the protection of pets


In all honesty I'm sure all land owners and people that regularly use the area in which drag hunts occur will know when this happens. When the hunt passes over our (the stables) land all the dogs are put up in the house after a long morning walk. I know there is also cats etc but just posting in regards to dogs. I agree it happens and such incidents are terrible  heart goes out to anyone that has had to suffer something like that. Also, don't think accidents deserve the inverted commas because with the majority of drag hunting in this country that is what they are 

Have been reading this thread with interest at how the topics vary! Stop quoting WL!


----------



## Staysee

gorgeous said:


> The best food in the UK aint necessarily the most expensive......in season fruit and veg for instance if far fresher, tastier and cheaper than imported versions,,,,and some of the cheaper cuts of meat are just as good ie chicken thighs instead of breast,,,,,etc, etc, etc....


Then maybe people need re-educating about thier food?


----------



## Guest

gorgeous said:


> The best food in the UK aint necessarily the most expensive......in season fruit and veg for instance if far fresher, tastier and cheaper than imported versions,,,,and some of the cheaper cuts of meat are just as good ie chicken thighs instead of breast,,,,,etc, etc, etc....


Belly pork! we import virually NONE! and SOME of out poor pigs do have a fair standard of life!
But no!! they don;t want fat!


----------



## Waterlily

Tapir said:


> and I hate to be a kill joy, but there are under 16's on this thread...bit inappropriate.
> 
> Oh aren't I party pooper


aw yeah point taken  cos animals been torn to shreds and death etc isnt gonna traumatize them yet a fake vag will :confused1: :thumbup:


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Waterlily said:


> aw yeah point taken  cos animals been torn to shreds and death etc isnt gonna traumatize them yet a fake vag will :confused1: :thumbup:


lmaoooooooo - ya big ledge Waterlilly, way to lighten the mood :lol:


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Staysee
> I am not a supporter of the hunt! and have said so throughout this thread! Also it is NOT really about cheap meat but fox hunting! but there are those that have plenty to say on one score yet are prepared to turn a blind eye on another form of cruelty! Good members with good morals have been hounded merely for stating their opinion!!!
> Now I am back to extracting urine!!


I never said you WERE supporter of hunting, you said about people and food, so i replied to that :confused1:

I dont turn a blind eye to ANY kind of cruelty to animals, i am firmly against all forms of cruelty

We grown our own veg in the summer and we're starting to grow fruit too.....my dad wont use any type of chemicals on them....if the bugs eat them, fine....but the bugs on them also attract the birds, so birds get food....but the birds also ravish some of our fruit and veg, thats fine by us....means the birds are eating.....we still have more then enough by half way through the season, i normally have lettuce coming out of my ears!


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> aw yeah point taken  cos animals been torn to shreds and death etc isnt gonna traumatize them yet a fake vag will :confused1: :thumbup:


most of us aint for tearing a fox apart! we are just reminding some with double standards that !


----------



## Natik

Waterlily said:


> aw yeah point taken  cos animals been torn to shreds and death etc isnt gonna traumatize them yet a fake vag will :confused1: :thumbup:


dont want to sound over sensitive or anything, but that picture is from an adult site. Doesnt this forum has created a specific section for things like that not avaible for everyone to see??

I hope u delete ur post and so does everyone who quoted ya with this pic


----------



## Tapir

Waterlily said:


> aw yeah point taken  cos animals been torn to shreds and death etc isnt gonna traumatize them yet a fake vag will :confused1: :thumbup:


yes but the title of the thread states it is about hunting and people will know what they are getting into.

I just thought it was inappropriate when we KNOW that there are under 16's using this thread...but clearly not, I must be a kill joy.


----------



## Staysee

Inca's Mum said:


> In all honesty I'm sure all land owners and people that regularly use the area in which drag hunts occur will know when this happens. When the hunt passes over our (the stables) land all the dogs are put up in the house after a long morning walk. I know there is also cats etc but just posting in regards to dogs. I agree it happens and such incidents are terrible  heart goes out to anyone that has had to suffer something like that. Also, don't think accidents deserve the inverted commas because with the majority of drag hunting in this country that is what they are
> 
> Have been reading this thread with interest at how the topics vary! Stop quoting WL!


Where did i quote WL? I just typed it meself


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> I never said you WERE supporter of hunting, you said about people and food, so i replied to that :confused1:
> 
> I dont turn a blind eye to ANY kind of cruelty to animals, i am firmly against all forms of cruelty
> 
> We grown our own veg in the summer and we're starting to grow fruit too.....my dad wont use any type of chemicals on them....if the bugs eat them, fine....but the bugs on them also attract the birds, so birds get food....but the birds also ravish some of our fruit and veg, thats fine by us....means the birds are eating.....we still have more then enough by half way through the season, i normally have lettuce coming out of my ears!


I don't know anyone who is cruel to fruit and veg please elabroate and I shall adjust my shopping list accordingly!


----------



## Inca's Mum

Staysee said:


> Where did i quote WL? I just typed it meself


Oh that end bit wasn't specifically aimed at you but there is only so much my young eyes can take!


----------



## hawksport

Tapir said:


> yes but the title of the thread states it is about hunting and people will know what they are getting into.
> 
> I just thought it was inappropriate when we KNOW that there are under 16's using this thread...but clearly not, I must be a kill joy.


Maybe one of the antis wants the thread closing. Evasion


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't know anyone who is cruel to fruit and veg please elabroate and I shall adjust my shopping list accordingly!


Im on about the usage of chemicals, which kills of anything that goes near the fruit and veg....but thats going to the extreme, which is the point im pointing out to how against any form of animal cruetly myself and my family are......unfortunatly same cant be said of one of our neighbours who i come close to punching everytime i see them


----------



## Staysee

Inca's Mum said:


> Oh that end bit wasn't specifically aimed at you but there is only so much my young eyes can take!


hahahha thats ok XD

Must say, altho its kinda weird considering whats been posted picture-wise recently.....you seem a whole lot mature then 14years old!

Dont even look it in your pics


----------



## MissShelley

Makes me lol all these "Don't quote Waterlilly, inappropiate" etc etc posts! Because... If like me, you hadn't seen the pic, you read the above and you go back and have a look! Just to see what all the fuss is about! :lol: So, you see! your drawing even more attention to it :lol:

If ya don't like what you see, there's a report post tab, use it instead of getting all holier than thou on us.


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hun, I know you're opposed to all forms of cruelty, as is Noushka (edited to add and Natik and a couple of others I've probably missed initially), goes without saying (I hope) on these threads
> 
> But no, I can't agree with the two faced bit, animals suffer just because it fits our lifestyle? I think that's actually more perverse than having an issue with cruelty that doesnt' affect our lifestyle tbh.


OK, look at it this way. Neither of the following two situations are ideal - but which would you say is the better one? (And no cheating - you're not allowed to give a third alternative  )

Situation 1 - Mrs X eats factory farmed meat, buys battery-farmed eggs, wears non-cruelty-free make up, and goes fox-hunting.

Situation 2 - Mrs Y eats factory farmed meat, buys battery-farmed eggs, wears non-cruelty-free make up, but campaigns against fox-hunting.

Now, just for a moment, put to one side the fact that Mrs Z, who does not eat factory farmed meat, does not buy battery-farmed eggs, wears cruelty-free make up, and does not support fox-hunting is the response you actually want to give. Looking from an animal cruelty perspective at Mrs X and Mrs Y, which person do you think is doing more for animals?

In an ideal world, we would all choose Mrs Z. But given that we don't live in an ideal world, surely Mrs Y's attitude, whilst somewhat hypocritical, is a better attitude - and does more to stop cruelty against animals - than that of Mrs X?


----------



## Guest

Staysee said:


> Im on about the usage of chemicals, which kills of anything that goes near the fruit and veg....but thats going to the extreme, which is the point im pointing out to how against any form of animal cruetly myself and my family are......unfortunatly same cant be said of one of our neighbours who i come close to punching everytime i see them


Oh right! thought I was going get jumped on for cruelty to a carrot then!


----------



## Inca's Mum

DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh right! thought I was going get jumped on for cruelty to a carrot them!


Wish I could rep you for that!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Staysee said:


> Guilty of animal cruetly for eating meat?
> 
> Maybe some people arnt so well educated in the meat eating world
> Maybe some just dont have the money to get real good ethinical food
> 
> Not everyone can be perfect, along as everyone tries thier best to not support the bad ways of slaughter, raising and caging animals etc then surely they are doing the best they can?
> 
> If all someone can afford that week if a cheap [excuse the pun] chicken which probably didnt have the best life, so they have after extra few quid for the meter to keep the house warm, then let them
> 
> You cant judge someone like that, aslong as they arnt actively going out of thier way to support animal cruelty, let them be, im sure they dont mean it


So ignorance is an excuse for cruelty, I'm sorry, but in my books it isn't, not in this day and age 



Staysee said:


> My apologies....i dont run my own home yet or often visit the butcher.....i work in a supermarket bakery.
> 
> You cant say all familys want less fuss food, we're far from it now, the fresher the better in our family.....altho the freshest food is either alive or from a local farm and we cant afford those prices or have the right enviroment for our own animals [or the money to keep them]
> 
> So we do all our best with what we can and where we can to get the best food possible, as free range and organic as possible too


If that's the case, why are most supermarket type shops full of easy meals. A very small part of their space is allocated to fresh produce. A good space is allocated to alcohol, which can't be a bad thing, can it? 



hawksport said:


> Tonight I've been where I grew up as a kid. Back then there were 1 or 2 cars on the streets because most people couldn't afford a car, but no one starved. Now there are 2 cars outside nearly every house. You can't tell me people can't afford to buy real meat these days


And then you get the news reports of people pleading poverty from their homes with leather sofas bought from dfs (leather from God knows where) and stainless steel accoutrements throughout the housee.



gorgeous said:


> WHen peeps buy meat from supermarket, it aint what it seems. Might be cheap but then there is a reason. The meat is ****! Has been pumped full of growth hormones, water added, stack of salt and fat from unidentified objects.....
> 
> Might pay more for organically free ranged reared BUT you will need a lot less and you have clear consciences that animal had good life and you are feeding yourself and family much finer fodder.:thumbup:


Exactly, but people don't care if it only tastes of crap, after all, we have many successful outlets selling crappy burgers and such like. We can even drive through and pick up our meal, ready to eat!! What a GREAT concept :thumbup:



hawksport said:


> Stop quoting waterlilly seeing that once is enough


I sooooo agreeee!



Staysee said:


> Then maybe people need re-educating about thier food?


And I sooooo agreeeee with this!



DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't know anyone who is cruel to fruit and veg please elabroate and I shall adjust my shopping list accordingly!


DT I'm hoping no-one elaborates, really, we've had enough with WL's picture postings!! :scared:


----------



## Staysee

DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh right! thought I was going get jumped on for cruelty to a carrot then!


Im just wondering now what would be classed as cruelty to a carrot??? haha


----------



## Tapir

MissShelley said:


> Makes me lol all these "Don't quote Waterlilly, inappropiate" etc etc posts! Because... If like me, you hadn't seen the pic, you read the above and you go back and have a look! Just to see what all the fuss is about! :lol: So, you see! your drawing even more attention to it :lol:
> 
> If ya don't like what you see, there's a report post tab, use it instead of getting all holier than thou on us.


Not getting high and mighty. It's just compeletly inappropriate.

I'm not one to usually get picky about things like that, but there is a section where you can post pictures like that until your hearts content.


----------



## Spellweaver

Natik said:


> is there a need to post such pictures, we all know it will cause the thread to be closed and deleted. And there are kids on here too


I sincerely hope that the mods won't close and delete this thread - it's been a very interesting thread and brought up lots if things to ponder on. Please mods, just delete the inappropriate picture.


----------



## Waterlily

Spellweaver said:


> I sincerely hope that the mods won't close and delete this thread - it's been a very interesting thread and brought up lots if things to ponder on. Please mods, just delete the inappropriate picture.


I deleted it, but DT needs to edit her post  apologies to the offended  :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

Gawd looks like i missed some... I been free ranging the hamsters.. lol 

At the end of the day we will never all agree.. we can all just educate each other and give snippets of our lives and what we do good..


----------



## Guest

Where is the adult bit of the forum? I have herd about it but cant find it.:confused1:


----------



## Inca's Mum

shetlandlover said:


> Where is the adult bit of the forum? I have herd about it but cant find it.:confused1:


You've got to PM a mod to get a password or something like that.


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> Where is the adult bit of the forum? I have herd about it but cant find it.:confused1:


PM a mod and they will give you access.


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> I deleted it, but DT needs to edit her post  apologies to the offended  :lol:


Done it sis! seeing as it were you that asked:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Guest

danielled said:


> PM a mod and they will give you access.


Is it worth it? Is it just for dirty stuff because if it is then I dont want to be a part of it.


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> Done it sis! seeing as it were you that asked:thumbup::thumbup:


thanks mate dont wanna cause a cardiac :arf: :lol:


----------



## Guest

shetlandlover said:


> Is it worth it? Is it just for dirty stuff because if it is then I dont want to be a part of it.


I haven't got access. Happy in general chat from what I have heard.


----------



## Staysee

Im gutted i gotta go bed....cos its means by the time im next online im gonna have to read another hundred odd pages before im up to date again! hahahahha


night all!

x


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> I deleted it, but DT needs to edit her post  apologies to the offended  :lol:





Staysee said:


> Im gutted i gotta go bed....cos its means by the time im next online im gonna have to read another hundred odd pages before im up to date again! hahahahha
> 
> night all!
> 
> x


well Im off too! so if you're up before me an you ust fill me in on the vitals please!


----------



## Guest

Spellweaver said:


> OK, look at it this way. Neither of the following two situations are ideal - but which would you say is the better one? (And no cheating - you're not allowed to give a third alternative  )
> 
> Situation 1 - Mrs X eats factory farmed meat, buys battery-farmed eggs, wears non-cruelty-free make up, and goes fox-hunting.
> 
> Situation 2 - Mrs Y eats factory farmed meat, buys battery-farmed eggs, wears non-cruelty-free make up, but campaigns against fox-hunting.
> 
> Now, just for a moment, put to one side the fact that Mrs Z, who does not eat factory farmed meat, does not buy battery-farmed eggs, wears cruelty-free make up, and does not support fox-hunting is the response you actually want to give. Looking from an animal cruelty perspective at Mrs X and Mrs Y, which person do you think is doing more for animals?
> 
> In an ideal world, we would all choose Mrs Z. But given that we don't live in an ideal world, surely Mrs Y's attitude, whilst somewhat hypocritical, is a better attitude - and does more to stop cruelty against animals - than that of Mrs X?


It depends on the methods Mrs X advocates for fox hunting  But on a par they are much of a muchness, although Mrs Z if in a race with Mrs X would be winning!!

I would just like to add I am Mrs Z although my hubby would strongly disagree we were both present when I agreed yo be Mrs S :lol:

Gotta rep you though for reminding me of university...those were the days Child A played with Child Q whilst Child H played With Child C, B and D


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> well Im off too! so if you're up before me an you ust fill me in on the vitals please!


goodnight noodle xx


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> goodnight noodle xx


nite sis
xxxxxxxx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Spellweaver said:


> OK, look at it this way. Neither of the following two situations are ideal - but which would you say is the better one? (And no cheating - you're not allowed to give a third alternative  )
> 
> Situation 1 - Mrs X eats factory farmed meat, buys battery-farmed eggs, wears non-cruelty-free make up, and goes fox-hunting.
> 
> Situation 2 - Mrs Y eats factory farmed meat, buys battery-farmed eggs, wears non-cruelty-free make up, but campaigns against fox-hunting.
> 
> Now, just for a moment, put to one side the fact that Mrs Z, who does not eat factory farmed meat, does not buy battery-farmed eggs, wears cruelty-free make up, and does not support fox-hunting is the response you actually want to give. Looking from an animal cruelty perspective at Mrs X and Mrs Y, which person do you think is doing more for animals?
> 
> In an ideal world, we would all choose Mrs Z. But given that we don't live in an ideal world, surely Mrs Y's attitude, whilst somewhat hypocritical, is a better attitude - and does more to stop cruelty against animals - than that of Mrs X?


Neither is better, I wouldn't choose one over the other to be honest. Both advocate cruelty, and neither lifestyle is acceptable to me personally, although I understand and accept that some choose to live that way because of finances. What I can't then understand, is the judgemental view they have of other cruelties, and fox hunting seems to be an all time favourite. If only they focussed on puppy farming, we may well have done some good with all of it.


----------



## mitch4

Well i will just say Wow, how good a thread has this been.

Im now too tired to make a sensible comment and so many topics in one thread all relevent but such a heated passionate subject there will always be clashes

Blimey I think we all need to have a stiff drink, stop taking things personally and chill. Im worn out just reading all this


----------



## hawksport

Time for a group hug


----------



## momentofmadness

hawksport said:


> Time for a group hug


So funny remember the protesters trying to save the trees a good few years ago.. :lol:


----------



## canuckjill

I must say this CONGRATULATIONS!!! This is a really interesting read although I started at 152 today and can't remember where I left off yesterday so now I've gotta go backwards lol....WL and DT thanks for deleting the offending picture it is appreciated...Jill


----------



## cool-jim

Sorry for dissappearing last night, my interweb went down, had loads to read this morning.



momentofmadness said:


> Am I a pro hunter.. ah yes... Pro drag hunter.. xxx


You keep making a point of saying you're pro drag hunting. Emphasising the word DRAG. This thread, all those pages ago started as a discussion on a potential repeal of the hunting law. (See my memory ain't that bad). If the law was repealed would you still go hunting or support hunting as I'm sure most hunts would soon forget drag hunting.

At last, back on topic.


----------



## Spellweaver

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Neither is better, I wouldn't choose one over the other to be honest. Both advocate cruelty, and neither lifestyle is acceptable to me personally, although I understand and accept that some choose to live that way because of finances. What I can't then understand, is the judgemental view they have of other cruelties, and fox hunting seems to be an all time favourite. If only they focussed on puppy farming, we may well have done some good with all of it.


By and large I think that most people do have concerns about other forms of animal cruelty, but they have been concentrating on fox-hunting because that is what this thread is about.

I totally agree with you in that neither lifestyle is acceptable to me either, and I agree that it's important to both educate people about, and fight against, all kinds of cruelty to all animals.

However, from the fox's perspective, if he is saved from a horrendous death by a hunt sab, he is not going to be concerned whether or not that hunt sab has bought and eaten factory farmed chickens. If we truly believe that all forms of animal cruelty should be fought against, surely we have to agree that *one* act of cruelty stopped is better than *no* act of cruelty stopped?

It's a good thing for us to have high ideals such as stopping all forms of animal cruelty, and it's a good thing to work towards encouraging others to embrace those ideals. However, as we do work towards them I think we have to accept that on the way towards our goal we are going to encounter people who only share part of our ideals, for whatever reason. It would be wrong of us to let our ideals get in the way of acknowledging that, whatever their lifestyle, they are still working towards saving_ some_ animal from horrendous cruelty. It does not mean that what they do contribute to lessening animal cruelty is wrong. It merely means that, depending upon their circumstances, they may be able do so much more.


----------



## Amethyst

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'm not condoning it - hence why im a veggie  - but tbh i've never seen two chickens for a fiver ? So how much does a free range chicken cost for the average person? I just can't see how it can be compared to fox hunting, especially when this thread isn't about battery hens, which i've already said I don't agree with.


Agree with you, threads about Fox hunting, not chickens at "value" prices.

Repeatedly certain members have been ask asked politely by members to keep thread on topic, rather than deliberately divert topic of thread away from hunting with hounds.

Repeatedly they don't ... to the point of :Yawn:

They have been politely asked to start threads on the topics so very close to their hearts such as factory farming and we've even said we will comment there, but no, they prefer to go and and ooooooooooooooooooooon here 

I guess they have run out of anything of relevance to say regards hunting, but can't bear to simply let go ....


----------



## dee o gee

Staysee said:


> Im only at page 98, bloody hell you lot can talk!
> 
> But i had to post!
> 
> Yes im anti hunt, totally and utterly anti hunt, but after PM'ing a pro-hunt PF member [im sh!t with names, sorry] and reading through
> 
> We really need to stop saying that everything that happens, happen in every hunt, there may be some awful hunts out there who do kill thier dogs....but then theres another the next town over [or however it works] who try thier upmost to rehome thier dogs
> 
> *BUT......pro hunters, you guys tell us how its in the fox hounds blood, in its nature to just hunt....so how can, after years of being trained to hunt and times of not responding to the huntsmen and 'punishmet' to make sure the dog doesnt go wrong again....how CAN the poor dog be rehomed? If its so natural to the dog to hunt and its trained even more so into it, then surely it wont make a great pet? Thats unless its the only pet, no young kids and never let off a lead incase it goes for something?*
> 
> Now im heading back to page 98 to keep reading XD


You can say the same thing about greyhounds but they are regularly rehomed and make brilliant pets.

Sorry if this has already been said, Iv only got to page 141 so far.


----------



## snoopydo

Sorry to go off topic Amethyst ( please Don't shout at me ) :scared:

Just a Quickie reply to Dee o Gee lot of Greyhound get Killed off Too when they don't get 'Results' But thankfully as you say the lucky ones end up in loving Homes......


----------



## Guest

snoopydo said:


> Just a Quickie reply to Dee o Gee lot of Greyhound get Killed off Too when they don't get 'Results' But thankfully as you say the lucky ones end up in loving Homes......


Girl around the corner from me works for Greyhound Rescue...top lady :thumbup:, took in a mangled lurcher/greyhound cross that we found dumped to the vets (vet said he was getting old and the scars on him would be about right for going after badgers)...she said she would do her best to help out...


----------



## dee o gee

snoopydo said:


> Sorry to go off topic Amethyst ( please Don't shout at me ) :scared:
> 
> Just a Quickie reply to Dee o Gee lot of Greyhound get Killed off Too when they don't get 'Results' But thankfully as you say the lucky ones end up in loving Homes......


Oh yes I know that all too well unfortunately. My point was that Staysee mentioned that how could fox hounds make good pets when they are bred and trained to hunt, well greyhounds also are bred and trained to chase small prey but are regularly rehomed, sometimes to homes with small dogs and cats.


----------



## snoopydo

Oh yes I Get you now  Yes I see your point.


----------



## kirksandallchins

I have always thought that if a fox looked like a rat nobody would care about foxhunting. Afterall how many people get out verminators when they have mice or rats in their property, and leave poison lying around


----------



## Staysee

Personally, i wouldnt wanna kill a rat either.

Not unless it was some major infestation, causing troubles or spreading illness in my household

But only as a very last resort would i want them killed, i'd wanna try all other ways first


----------



## Guest

kirksandallchins said:


> I have always thought that if a fox looked like a rat nobody would care about foxhunting. Afterall how many people get out verminators when they have mice or rats in their property, and leave poison lying around


Would you get a bunch of toffs on horseback with hounds in to sort your rat infestation out?. Humane kill, fair enough...


----------



## Guest

jon bda said:


> Would you get a bunch of toffs on horseback with hounds in to sort your rat infestation out?. Humane kill, fair enough...


Do you know how rat poison works?
It's one of the cruelest deaths


----------



## cool-jim

rona said:


> Do you know how rat poison works?
> It's one of the cruelest deaths


But Jon said humane. Rat poison isn't humane. I'd prefer humane trapping and relocation.


----------



## Amethyst

snoopydo said:


> Sorry to go off topic Amethyst ( please Don't shout at me ) :scared:


I'll deal with YOU later


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> But Jon said humane. Rat poison isn't humane. I'd prefer humane trapping and relocation.


Pointless with rats... Rats go to where there is food and shelter and will keep going back...you could have a whole lot to catch!

Best way with rats is to take away the things they need. Make sure there is no food for them, no "tunnels" (keep things away from edges and walls)... and they will leave of their own accord.

Not always easy as it sounds but it can be done

(I worked managing pest control in my old job...hated it but it paid the bills)


----------



## momentofmadness

They will all be at their meets for the New years day hunt.. who is going to watch/stop?


----------



## dexter

momentofmadness said:


> They will all be at their meets for the New years day hunt.. who is going to watch/stop?


ours was held yesterday


----------



## momentofmadness

dexter said:


> ours was held yesterday


Round here there usually a sat.. and generally have a New Years day one.. It will prob be a kids and beginners meet as well... Top get all the Newby's out..


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> They will all be at their meets for the New years day hunt.. who is going to watch/stop?


The red coat mafia was out Boxing day in my area

and yes I did my bit.


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> The red coat mafia was out Boxing day in my area
> 
> and yes I did my bit.


Hunts are a weekly thing...

I think a lot of people dont realise this.. and the hunts a Drag hunts in my area.. we have two hunt parties.. Local farmers.. can't remember the name and the NECDH..


----------



## momentofmadness

Also i know loads and loads of farmers and horsey people who really appreciate the hunt.. 
Not only do they go out on a days hunting... They also take fallen stock.. So say I had to have one of my horses PTS and that is very pricely.. You can get the hunt to remove the corpse for you which isn't anywhere near the cost of having the vet remove it and having it cremated... For our 11.2 pony that we were having PTS etc.. (didn't happen in the end but all had to be looked into) the vets wanted just over £500 for the service... Its the hunt who remove nearly all fallen stock.....


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Hunts are a weekly thing...
> 
> I think a lot of people dont realise this.. and the hunts a Drag hunts in my area.. we have two hunt parties.. Local farmers.. can't remember the name and the NECDH..


well the murdering mafia comes poncing out here every Boxing day

Good turn our of anti's too.


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> well the murdering mafia comes poncing out here every Boxing day
> 
> Good turn our of anti's too.


Well what do you think they are murdering...

If it wasn't for the hunt you would see a lot more animals about dead just left....


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Also i know loads and loads of farmers and horsey people who really appreciate the hunt..
> Not only do they go out on a days hunting... They also take fallen stock.. So say I had to have one of my horses PTS and that is very pricely.. You can get the hunt to remove the corpse for you which isn't anywhere near the cost of having the vet remove it and having it cremated... For our 11.2 pony that we were having PTS etc.. (didn't happen in the end but all had to be looked into) the vets wanted just over £500 for the service... Its the hunt who remove nearly all fallen stock.....


What happens when the mafia removes dead stock?


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> What happens when the mafia removes dead stock?


What do you think happens??? I wold like you to tell me.. I have a feeling you have weird thoughts on this.. the stock is dead remember..


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Well what do you think they are murdering...
> 
> If it wasn't for the hunt you would see a lot more animals about dead just left....


Then let nature take it's cause like it should do, not let murdering red coats take that away


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> What do you think happens??? I wold like you to tell me.. I have a feeling you have weird thoughts on this.. the stock is dead remember..


Weird thoughts?

Wouldn't you pay the money so you can have the ashes to your horse?

I know I would


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Weird thoughts?
> 
> Wouldn't you pay the money so you can have the ashes to your horse?
> 
> I know I would


Its each to their own.. that was the price for a very small pony ...

The hunt dont waste any of their collection... Do you eat meat.. do you have pets who eat meat?


----------



## bellathemog

momentofmadness said:


> Its each to their own.. that was the price for a very small pony ...
> 
> The hunt dont waste any of their collection... Do you eat meat.. do you have pets who eat meat?


But my view is, a pony is what I would class as a pet, so I for one would pay what should be done not give it away for horse meat

not sure what my pet has to do with fox hunting

the day the cat comes home with a red jacket and a hat on it's head is the day I no longer have a cat

I don't eat fox no, I only eat and it's very rare that I eat any kind of meat


----------



## cool-jim

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by momentofmadness
> Am I a pro hunter.. ah yes... Pro drag hunter.. xxx
> 
> You keep making a point of saying you're pro drag hunting. Emphasising the word DRAG. This thread, all those pages ago started as a discussion on a potential repeal of the hunting law. (See my memory ain't that bad). If the law was repealed would you still go hunting or support hunting as I'm sure most hunts would soon forget drag hunting.


Bumpetybump.


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> But my view is, a pony is what I would class as a pet, so I for one would pay what should be done not give it away for horse meat
> 
> not sure what my pet has to do with fox hunting
> 
> the day the cat comes home with a red jacket and a hat on it's head is the day I no longer have a cat
> 
> I don't eat fox no, I only eat and it's very rare that I eat any kind of meat


Well generally the fallen stock gets fed to the dogs... recycled... There might be someone within the hunt who wants the skins or the hair... years ago stuffing in your sofa and your chairs was made from horse hair...


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> But my view is, a pony is what I would class as a pet, so I for one would pay what should be done not give it away for horse meat
> 
> not sure what my pet has to do with fox hunting
> 
> the day the cat comes home with a red jacket and a hat on it's head is the day I no longer have a cat
> 
> I don't eat fox no, I only eat and it's very rare that I eat any kind of meat


Surpised you have a cat with your morals! or I take it your cat is not cruel to its prey!


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Surpised you have a cat with your morals! or I take it your cat is not cruel to its prey!


Wonder how long it would take till you came on

What's me having a cat got to do with fox hunting?


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Bumpetybump.


As we all know its banned.. and now we have drag hunting all the same practices but now following a scent. And what it has to do with fox hunting.. If people were to have the se hunt yards stopped.. what would happen to all the dogs.. They would be euthanised and incinerated as they aren't deemed fit to be pets very often.. what would happen to the horses.. most would be euthanised.. and incinerated or shot and sold to the meat men, or kept alive sold to meat men then transported abroad in horrific conditions....

Fallen stock would be very pricely to have removed....


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Wonder how long it would take till you came on
> 
> What's me having a cat got to do with fox hunting?


Hello :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

And a happy new year to you too


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> As we all know its banned.. and now we have drag hunting all the same practices but now following a scent. And what it has to do with fox hunting.. If people were to have the se hunt yards stopped.. what would happen to all the dogs.. They would be euthanised and incinerated as they aren't deemed fit to be pets very often.. what would happen to the horses.. most would be euthanised.. and incinerated or shot and sold to the meat men, or kept alive sold to meat men then transported abroad in horrific conditions....
> 
> Fallen stock would be very pricely to have removed....


Once again, off on a tangent. Go and read the start of the thread as you obviously haven't read from the beginning, just come on at the end to fight with half the facts. Then come back and answer my perfectly civil question.


----------



## dee o gee

bellathemog said:


> Then let nature take it's cause like it should do, not let murdering red coats take that away


:confused1: Are you on about foxes or fallen stock? Im genuinely confused as to whether you think fallen stock should be left to nature? :confused1:


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hello :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> And a happy new year to you too


answer my question

what's me having a cat got to do with fox hunting?

Simple


----------



## momentofmadness

Oh also people have been drag hunting for years before the ban.. cause not everyone involved wants to go out chasing and killing foxes.. they just want a good pipe opener with likely mind people..


----------



## bellathemog

dee o gee said:


> :confused1: Are you on about foxes or fallen stock? Im genuinely confused as to whether you think fallen stock should be left to nature? :confused1:


Animals that has passed away


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> answer my question
> 
> what's me having a cat got to do with fox hunting?
> 
> Simple


Hey! 
You read my post again !
I made an observation!
I SAID I were suprised that you had a cat at all seeing as you are SO AGAINST!!! UNECCISARY animal cruetly and CATS torment their prey!!
Now you answer that!
Tis WERE NOTHING to do with fox hunting just an observation!


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> Oh also people have been drag hunting for years before the ban.. cause not everyone involved wants to go out chasing and killing foxes.. they just want a good pipe opener with likely mind people..


So the hunt you go on has always, since it was formed, only drag hunted and would never go after a fox even if the law was repealed. can you promise that?


----------



## smudgiesmummy

:rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5:


----------



## hawksport

Hardly suprising antis sometimes get hurt if this is the way they conduct themselves


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> answer my question
> 
> what's me having a cat got to do with fox hunting?
> 
> Simple


Cats are grisly hunters.. its nature.. they catch a mouse they dont kill it, they play with it to death.. not a quick death.. mouse is frightened to death for the whole time heart beating so fast for the mouse with the fear of its life being taken..


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> Cats are grisly hunters.. its nature.. they catch a mouse they dont kill it, they play with it to death.. not a quick death.. mouse is frightened to death for the whole time heart beating so fast for the mouse with the fear of its life being taken..


Shouldn't you be reading the start of this thread so you know what it's about to give me an answer?


----------



## dee o gee

bellathemog said:


> Animals that has passed away


Do you really think fallen stock should just be left to rot away by nature? :confused1:

Not everyone has £500 to spend on having their horse pts and then removed by a vet or the fallen stock man when the money could be better spent on other horses/pets, so I fully support anyone who can do it cheaper.


----------



## momentofmadness

You know what gets me.. is yes this thread is about fox hunting.. But the effects fox hunting has goes onto other things.. And yes people on here will compare a cat killing a mouse to a pack of dogs killing a fox... But are we wrong to suggest such things.. and yes people do feel very strongly about meat being cheaply and cruelly supplied... But its seems they are not allowed to get their points across.... 

Open forum a thread.. threads whilst discussing one thing do contain other things that peope feel are very important and I do see where sleeping lion was coming from.. you are quite happy to buy meat from a supplier that can't tell you how that animal was raised and killed and all the drugs stuffed in that animal to make it grow at extreme rates...

But you aren't happy for fox hunting.... mmmmmm


----------



## Waterlily

bellathemog said:


> Wonder how long it would take till you came on
> 
> What's me having a cat got to do with fox hunting?
> 
> Hey? *Muppet*





bellathemog said:


> Nice
> 
> name calling lol


well dont start it....ya Muppet :thumbup:

umm agree with your views btw


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> You know what gets me.. is yes this thread is about fox hunting.. But the effects fox hunting has goes onto other things.. And yes people on here will compare a cat killing a mouse to a pack of dogs killing a fox... But are we wrong to suggest such things.. and yes people do feel very strongly about meat being cheaply and cruelly supplied... But its seems they are not allowed to get their points across....
> 
> Open forum a thread.. threads whilst discussing one thing do contain other things that peope feel are very important and I do see where sleeping lion was coming from.. you are quite happy to buy meat from a supplier that can't tell you how that animal was raised and killed and all the drugs stuffed in that animal to make it grow at extreme rates...
> 
> But you aren't happy for fox hunting.... mmmmmm


But some go off topic to avoid some aspects of the topic at hand.


----------



## hawksport

cool-jim said:


> But some go off topic to avoid some aspects of the topic at hand.


and some topics have much wider ranging implications than some realise


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> But some go off topic to avoid some aspects of the topic at hand.


I dont think they do.. I think some have gone on about the chickens cause they feel that people are being very 2 faced when they go on about fox hunting sat in their chair behind a pc... But dont do anything about other issues...


----------



## momentofmadness

And I bet most of you don't do anything about the fox hunting... Just like you wouldn't do anything a bout the dog or child next door being beaten and abused.. But will quite happily rant from behind you PC.. Oh and to those who have confirmed you are members of organisations.. thats not aimed at you...


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> I dont think they do.. I think some have gone on about the chickens cause they feel that people are being very 2 faced when they go on about fox hunting sat in their chair behind a pc... But dont do anything about other issues...


I'm not on about the chickens, There are many hunting specific questions throughout this thread that haven't been answered. Not least the one I've asked you. You've gone off onto an off topic subject which makes it seem like you're avoiding answering an on topic one.


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> I'm not on about the chickens, There are many hunting specific questions throughout this thread that haven't been answered. Not least the one I've asked you. You've gone off onto an off topic subject which makes it seem like you're avoiding answering an on topic one.


Prob cause I haven't noticed your question.. Im not sat on here all day.. may be on line but I am cooking dinner have dropped kids off at their dads across town and have been busy with my kids.. so lets say my whole attention hasn't been on.. so fire away.. I have a few mins again..


----------



## momentofmadness

And whilst cooking dinner my gas has ran out and been to the shop for a top up.. LOL and I have to be at me nans with the dinner for 3pm right across town.. things are not looking good.. hhaah


----------



## cool-jim

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by momentofmadness
> Oh also people have been drag hunting for years before the ban.. cause not everyone involved wants to go out chasing and killing foxes.. they just want a good pipe opener with likely mind people..


So the hunt you go on has always, since it was formed, only drag hunted and would never go after a fox even if the law was repealed. can you promise that?


----------



## cool-jim

None of us can sit on the computer. Only good manners to read whats going on instead of just jumping in.


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> So the hunt you go on has always, since it was formed, only drag hunted and would never go after a fox even if the law was repealed. can you promise that?


I can't promise it,.. and no it wont have always been a drag hunt.. But is now, what i will say is there are hunts who have always been drag hunters and always will... Its the morals.. obviously they dont believe in going out killing foxes... 
My experience out with a hunt has been a drag hunt..My experience on the drag hunt was abuse from people who had no clue what we were doing as I said before shouting abuse etc...
I did grow up in the country... when fox hunting was still allowed to go on.. And saw plenty of the hunt when I was young..

And I cant say they wont get a rogue hunt master in that will actually go out looking for the scent of a fox, or have someone go round in the morn looking for the whereabouts of the fox so they are easy to flush out that day.. 

And realistically.. can you prevent 30 hounds or so from picking up a scent when out and then following it.. Although I have never seen this happen... 
The scent the hunts use is usually a very strong scent.. Painted on to two horses hooves.. Or it is a rag dragged along the ground... the route will have been planned before hand for safety, and all jumps checked and made safe to avoid injury to horses.. there also is generally a bit you can get through to avoid having to jump an object if you aren't feeling too brave.

And may i add I haven't had horses for neraly 3 years so also haven't really been near a hunt since then..


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> None of us can sit on the computer. Only good manners to read whats going on instead of just jumping in.


That really surprises me.. I do think some people sit here all day.. just looking to cause havoc..


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> So the hunt you go on has always, since it was formed, only drag hunted and would never go after a fox even if the law was repealed. can you promise that?


TBH Jim, I really cannot see why any member should be made to 'promise' or account for anything they do!
What members do in their private life is up to them!
Think I would have been offended if this had been asked of me!


----------



## smudgiesmummy




----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


>


You have a late night???


----------



## JohnMorris

Sorry haven't got the will to read through all the replies so far as very hungover but suffice to say, I cannot understand thereason why since the fox hunting became illegal, these "superior upper class" numpties feel the need to trample across the country on horses, disrupting the wildlife and causing havoc. If you want to go riding do so, but respect others around. As for fox hunting, I know some places are still doing it on the QT and as far as I am concerned, they should swap places with the fox and be chased to an inch of their lives and die of being shredded to pieces by baying hounds, or scared to death. Once upon a time, someone called us humans and not animals; people seem to have swapped places barring the fact that animals aren't quite so savage usually.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> You have a late night???


had a fab night thanks


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> TBH Jim, I really cannot see why any member should be made to 'promise' or account for anything they do!
> What members do in their private life is up to them!
> Think I would have been offended if this had been asked of me!


It was just to do with the insistance that it's DRAG hunting. When the topic is the repeal and I wanted to know, as momentofmadness had insisted only supporting drag hunting, if the support would still be there if the law was repealed.


----------



## Inca's Mum

momentofmadness said:


> They will all be at their meets for the New years day hunt.. who is going to watch/stop?


We followed ours in the car today for around 3 and a half hours - it was fab


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> I can't promise it,.. and no it wont have always been a drag hunt.. But is now, what i will say is there are hunts who have always been drag hunters and always will... Its the morals.. obviously they dont believe in going out killing foxes...
> My experience out with a hunt has been a drag hunt..My experience on the drag hunt was abuse from people who had no clue what we were doing as I said before shouting abuse etc...
> I did grow up in the country... when fox hunting was still allowed to go on.. And saw plenty of the hunt when I was young..
> 
> And I cant say they wont get a rogue hunt master in that will actually go out looking for the scent of a fox, or have someone go round in the morn looking for the whereabouts of the fox so they are easy to flush out that day..
> 
> And realistically.. can you prevent 30 hounds or so from picking up a scent when out and then following it.. Although I have never seen this happen...
> The scent the hunts use is usually a very strong scent.. Painted on to two horses hooves.. Or it is a rag dragged along the ground... the route will have been planned before hand for safety, and all jumps checked and made safe to avoid injury to horses.. there also is generally a bit you can get through to avoid having to jump an object if you aren't feeling too brave.
> 
> And may i add I haven't had horses for neraly 3 years so also haven't really been near a hunt since then..


Thanks for answering.

Would it not be good PR for drag hunting if the community as a whole got together and did something about the rogue hunt masters and proved the hounds were having better welfare and full lives. It would then stop all the abuse on both sides.

This is a general question for all PRO's.


----------



## JJAK

cool-jim said:


> Thanks for answering.
> 
> Would it not be good PR for drag hunting if the community as a whole got together and did something about the rogue hunt masters and proved the hounds were having better welfare and full lives. It would then stop all the abuse on both sides.
> 
> This is a general question for all PRO's.


Good question! 
It would be great if the community could get together as a whole and do something about the rogue hunt masters...but, then what classes as a rogue, to you and i it is the ones who treat their hounds with minimal respect etc...but to one huntman he may see this as the norm, so surely to pin point would cause a rift in the hunting community if a particular person felt their doing nothing wrong?!

Alot of hunts do come together, many trade welfare points, ideas on how to better hound life style, exercise plans etc so the hounds are getting the best possible living conditions etc they can whilst they are working dogs.


----------



## Spellweaver

momentofmadness said:


> Also i know loads and loads of farmers and horsey people who really appreciate the hunt..
> Not only do they go out on a days hunting... They also take fallen stock.. So say I had to have one of my horses PTS and that is very pricely.. You can get the hunt to remove the corpse for you which isn't anywhere near the cost of having the vet remove it and having it cremated... For our 11.2 pony that we were having PTS etc.. (didn't happen in the end but all had to be looked into) the vets wanted just over £500 for the service... Its the hunt who remove nearly all fallen stock.....


So the hunt collect dead animals and charge the farmers for doing so, and then feed it all to the hounds? In other words, what they are actually doing is getting the farmers to foot their food bill for them and charging them for doing so. I wouldn't term that providing a service - getting their food bills paid and feathering their own pockets at the same time is an activity that is purely mercenary, driven by their own needs, and does not stem from any altruistic sense of helping the community at all.


----------



## JJAK

Spellweaver said:


> So the hunt collect dead animals and charge the farmers for doing so, and then feed it all to the hounds? In other words, what they are actually doing is getting the farmers to foot their food bill for them and charging them for doing so. I wouldn't term that providing a service - getting their food bills paid and feathering their own pockets at the same time is an activity that is purely mercenary, driven by their own needs, and does not stem from any altruistic sense of helping the community at all.


Its isnt expensive, 
Cost us £20 when one of our younsters died. which covers the general output of cost which the hunt covers in the first place (petrol, electric etc) 
They will collect all dead stock, but those that are euthanised arnt fed to the hounds (due to the drugs in the system) so they are incinerated (which the hunt also deals with) So its only those that are shot or died of natural causes that are fed to the hounds.

Most hunt also feeds the hounds dry food...which they provide themselves, so dead stock is really an extra!


----------



## snoopydo

That Sounds Awful.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

snoopydo said:


> That Sounds Awful.


dont it just


----------



## Waterlily

JJAK said:


> Its isnt expensive,
> Cost us £20 when one of our younsters died. which covers the general output of cost which the hunt covers in the first place (petrol, electric etc)
> *They will collect all dead stock, but those that are euthanised arnt fed to the hounds (due to the drugs in the system) so they are incinerated* (which the hunt also deals with) So its only those that are shot or died of natural causes that are fed to the hounds.
> 
> Most hunt also feeds the hounds dry food...which they provide themselves, so dead stock is really an extra!


aw such a waste of life.


----------



## Guest

smudge2009 said:


> dont it just


I think its just a different way of life....

Im not comfortable with the idea however I can see a benefit. The stock isnt just "wasted", meat has to come from somewhere - at least its not battery farmed meat like a lot of what could be used. Unless you are willing to feed the hounds a vegetarian diet I cant see that it can really be judged.


----------



## JJAK

Waterlily said:


> aw such a waste of life.


What would you do with the euthanaised animals?!


----------



## Waterlily

JJAK said:


> What would you do with the euthanaised animals?!


well I wouldnt have them hunted in the first place. Would let them live and enjoy there family and habitat, would bloody find another hobby.

oops ya mean farm animals oh well oops


----------



## bird

Right people, keep it civil please. 
No swearing
No mudslinging
No calling those that you dont agree with murderous etc, or wishing them harm
Or this WILL be closed. Just because you disagree with the practices of others doesnt mean that you can say they're murderous/murderers etc. 

Oh and happy new year.


----------



## Guest

bird said:


> Right people, keep it civil please.
> No swearing
> No mudslinging
> No calling those that you dont agree with murderous etc, or wishing them harm
> Or this WILL be closed. Just because you disagree with the practices of others doesnt mean that you can say they're murderous/murderers etc.
> 
> Oh and happy new year.


You forgot summat Bird
What about no winding up DT:scared::scared:
Seeing as I made a new years resolution to be nice and thoughful and kind:thumbup:


----------



## hawksport

snoopydo said:


> That Sounds Awful.





smudge2009 said:


> dont it just


Why is it awful to feed fallen stock to dogs but acceptable to kill healthy animals to feed to dogs?


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> You forgot summat Bird
> What about no winding up DT:scared::scared:
> Seeing as I made a new years resolution to be nice and thoughful and kind:thumbup:


 we'll see how long that lasts  bout as long as me not been umm rude :scared: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> we'll see how long that lasts  bout as long as me not been umm rude :scared: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Well look it at from my point of view:thumbup::thumbup:
What would you do if someone stole yor word


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well look it at from my point of view:thumbup::thumbup:
> What would you do if someone stole yor word


aw well that would piss me off :arf: ya knob  but well would make them look silly though  specially if it were ya trade mark :lol: :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Thanks for answering.
> 
> Would it not be good PR for drag hunting if the community as a whole got together and did something about the rogue hunt masters and proved the hounds were having better welfare and full lives. It would then stop all the abuse on both sides.
> 
> This is a general question for all PRO's.


My area is cheshire.. can you find a rogue mater here?


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> My area is cheshire.. can you find a rogue mater here?


Mater :confused1: Oh master :lol:

I'm not from Cheshire, and I think the hunt community should be clearing their own back yard. Hunts must surely communicate with each other so the 'rogue hunt masters' must surely get talked about.


----------



## momentofmadness

JJAK said:


> Its isnt expensive,
> Cost us £20 when one of our younsters died. which covers the general output of cost which the hunt covers in the first place (petrol, electric etc)
> They will collect all dead stock, but those that are euthanised arnt fed to the hounds (due to the drugs in the system) so they are incinerated (which the hunt also deals with) So its only those that are shot or died of natural causes that are fed to the hounds.
> 
> Most hunt also feeds the hounds dry food...which they provide themselves, so dead stock is really an extra!


Cheers for clarifying Jjack.. I couldn't remember the prices.. and so I am sure why if its gonna cost 500.. plus for a little pony to be destroyed why a horsie person would pay the £20.00 for the hunt to remove..


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Mater :confused1: Oh master :lol:
> 
> I'm not from Cheshire, and I think the hunt community should be clearing their own back yard. Hunts must surely communicate with each other so the 'rogue hunt masters' must surely get talked about.


Haha Sorry i was rushing as I had 3 hubngry dogs staring at me.. thought they may don red coats and start chasing me soon... :lol:

And to the people who think its wrong to feed the hounds the fallen stock... Well what should you do with it all.. And what the heckers like do you feed your pets.. at least the horses have had a meaning full life have been fed the best food owners can buy and had the vet out when need be!

Some of the pork you have eaten the pigs could have been crippled for the life till death.. In pain.. then they get slaughter for you.. and the reason they are in pain is cause the industry is trying to fatten them all up so fast and couldn't give a monkeys about the welfare of the animal!


----------



## JJAK

momentofmadness said:


> Cheers for clarifying Jjack.. I couldn't remember the prices.. and so I am sure why if its gonna cost 500.. plus for a little pony to be destroyed why a horsie person would pay the £20.00 for the hunt to remove..


It cost us nearly £600 to have our 13.2 taken away by the vets, cremated and her ashes returned to us...
Some people love their animals dearly...but some dont have that sort of money around each time a beloved pet dies


----------



## momentofmadness

JJAK said:


> It cost us nearly £600 to have our 13.2 taken away by the vets, cremated and her ashes returned to us...
> Some people love their animals dearly...but some dont have that sort of money around each time a beloved pet dies


That is so true.. especially if you have a child that is wanting another pony cause they can't live without....

Yes you can get insurance but you have to pay for the taking away of the pony before the insurance will pay out.. My 500.. would have been without the ashes returned..


----------



## JJAK

momentofmadness said:


> That is so true.. especially if you have a child that is wanting another pony cause they can't live without....
> 
> Yes you can get insurance but you have to pay for the taking away of the pony before the insurance will pay out.. My 500.. would have been without the ashes returned..


you pay insurance for all those years though and the comeback on loss of use or loss of horse isnt worth the money you pay each month!

To be honest, iv come to the conclusion "damned if you do, damned if you dont"


----------



## Staysee

momentofmadness said:


> And I bet most of you don't do anything about the fox hunting... Just like you wouldn't do anything a bout the dog or child next door being beaten and abused.. But will quite happily rant from behind you PC.. Oh and to those who have confirmed you are members of organisations.. thats not aimed at you...


Thats quite a sweeping comment about people and especially about the child or dog next door being abused....doesnt come under the same subject.

Even if an anti does the smallest of things, sends of a postcard that says they are against fox hunting....you dont HAVE to attend a hunt or join an organisation to be doing something about it

Im not part of anything, but i've done my fair share of things to help against fox hunting


----------



## momentofmadness

JJAK said:


> you pay insurance for all those years though and the comeback on loss of use or loss of horse isnt worth the money you pay each month!
> 
> To be honest, iv come to the conclusion "damned if you do, damned if you dont"


Very true.. I have always been advised to not have loss of use.. cause if you have a mare and say she was deemed loss of use by yourself/ vet, the insurance always say you can breed from her..

Cost i think £270.00 to have BB removed and the council said if I didn't do it with in so much time they would remove her and charge me a fortune... I couldn't let the hunt have her cause I wanted some closure and needed a post mortem.. She at 8 years old reg welsh sec c dropped dead in the field..


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> And I bet most of you don't do anything about the fox hunting... Just like you wouldn't do anything a bout the dog or child next door being beaten and abused.. But will quite happily rant from behind you PC.. Oh and to those who have confirmed you are members of organisations.. thats not aimed at you...


 so are you saying that most pro fox hunters would do something about a dog or child being beaten but most antis wouldnt? lol

and so what if folk do nothing only voice their disgust that some people enjoy brutalising wildlife?? i could say 'i bet most folk dont do anything about puppy farms' except happily rant from behind their PC couldnt i?..just because they dont do anything dosent mean they should agree with animal cruelty, or speak out against it does it


----------



## momentofmadness

Staysee said:


> Thats quite a sweeping comment about people and especially about the child or dog next door being abused....doesnt come under the same subject.
> 
> Even if an anti does the smallest of things, sends of a postcard that says they are against fox hunting....you dont HAVE to attend a hunt or join an organisation to be doing something about it
> 
> Im not part of anything, but i've done my fair share of things to help against fox hunting


Maybe so.. but TBO it is the way I am feeling right now....

And maybe they dont come under the same subject.. its an EG of how people like to rant but dont actually do a thing in order to help the cause!


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> so are you saying that most pro fox hunters would do something about a dog or child being beaten but most antis wouldnt? lol


Definately not.. But it seems the Anti's are very strong in their opinions but, I feel {and this is me personally} that probably half the people ranting about fox hunting don't actually do anything in order to help the cause.......

A hundred and odd pages.... But its still banned.. :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> i could say 'i bet most folk dont do anything about puppy farms' except happily rant from behind their PC couldnt i?..just because they dont do anything dosent mean they should agree with animal cruelty, or speak out against it does it


And I bet most people dont do anything about it.. same old same old.. people talk about it rant about it.. but sit there and do nothing.... Oh and Im doing my bit for charity at the minute.. Before you ask..


----------



## Guest

momentofmadness said:


> And I bet most people dont do anything about it.. same old same old.. people talk about it rant about it.. but sit there and do nothing.... Oh and Im doing my bit for charity at the minute.. Before you ask..


Noush is an exception! see is very passinate about fox hunting - and I have learned much from her !


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> Maybe so.. but TBO it is the way I am feeling right now....
> 
> And maybe they dont come under the same subject.. its an EG of how people like to rant but dont actually do a thing in order to help the cause!


But the only way to stup hunt cruelty is to convince the cruel to stop being cruel. as there seems to be no laws stopping the hunt community doing what they like. Whereas with the child or dog next door they can be reported for cruelty and something can then be done in the individual case.


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> Noush is an exception! see is very passinate about fox hunting - and I have learned much from her !


No I know I appreciate where she is coming from..  Thats why I stated previously not aimed at all those who have made an effort..


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> But the only way to stup hunt cruelty is to convince the cruel to stop being cruel. as there seems to be no laws stopping the hunt community doing what they like. Whereas with the child or dog next door they can be reported for cruelty and something can then be done in the individual case.


But is what I am getting at.. you get the same kind of people ranting.. but in reality probably do squat about it...


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> But the only way to stup hunt cruelty is to convince the cruel to stop being cruel. as there seems to be no laws stopping the hunt community doing what they like. Whereas with the child or dog next door they can be reported for cruelty and something can then be done in the individual case.


And you must determine what you mean by being cruel and who is being cruel.. cause remember not all hunts have some monster at the head..


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> And you must determine what you mean by being cruel and who is being cruel.. cause remember not all hunts have some monster at the head..


Which is why the hunts need to be the ones that do something. Because they will always stand together against the anti's which is why nothing has been achieved yet. It's pointless everyone fighting, the anti's need pro's that are anti cruelty to expose and stop the cruel members of the hunt community.

I hope that makes sense cos i'm not great with language.


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Which is why the hunts need to be the ones that do something. Because they will always stand together against the anti's which is why nothing has been achieved yet. It's pointless everyone fighting, the anti's need pro's that are anti cruelty to expose and stop the cruel members of the hunt community.
> 
> I hope that makes sense cos i'm not great with language.


But as I have tried to say earlier.. if you seen some of the behaviour at these meets and again I talk of drag hunter you would understand why the hunt haven't got the time for them. 

Cool Jim.. have you ever been hunting? Or have you ever been to watch your local hunt?


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> Which is why the hunts need to be the ones that do something. Because they will always stand together against the anti's which is why nothing has been achieved yet. It's pointless everyone fighting, the anti's need pro's that are anti cruelty to expose and stop the cruel members of the hunt community.
> 
> I hope that makes sense cos i'm not great with language.


You've got it perfectly :thumbup: :thumbup:
This is what I have been doing for many years in farming and country sports, not hunting though.
There aren't many with the stomach for it, you have to get into the communities and try and change things from within.
All this head banging is all well and good but does create huge gulfs that cannot be spanned


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Definately not.. But it seems the Anti's are very strong in their opinions but, I feel {and this is me personally} that probably half the people ranting about fox hunting don't actually do anything in order to help the cause.......
> 
> A hundred and odd pages.... But its still banned.. :lol:


i'd like to think the majority of the population have strong opinions on man inflicting horrendous cruelty on an animal in the name of sport! but it would be nice if more were pro active but thats life i suppose, and maybe threads like this might give people who care about animals the incentive to do more.

and something i find very odd is that no one brings up anything about buying cheap chickens etc on other threads about animal cruelty...only fox hunting threads:confused1:

yep still 'banned' thank the lord shame the law is still flouted tho!


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> But as I have tried to say earlier.. if you seen some of the behaviour at these meets and again I talk of drag hunter you would understand why the hunt haven't got the time for them.
> 
> Cool Jim.. have you ever been hunting? Or have you ever been to watch your local hunt?


I know what goes on, from an early age I've not had the sugar coated view of hunting, and in those days it was foxes that were hunted. I couldn't go to a hunt then and because of that I couldn't and wont go to one now. No matter what they do to change it. That's my choice. I want it cruelty free across the board then even thou I wont go I'd have peace of mind about it as a hobby.


----------



## noushka05

cool-jim said:


> But the only way to stup hunt cruelty is to convince the cruel to stop being cruel. as there seems to be no laws stopping the hunt community doing what they like. Whereas with the child or dog next door they can be reported for cruelty and something can then be done in the individual case.


fox hunting can never be anything but cruel!:confused1:...........from the moment the chase begins its cruel!


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> i'd like to think the majority of the population have strong opinions on man inflicting horrendous cruelty on an animal in the name of sport! but it would be nice if more were pro active but thats life i suppose, and maybe threads like this might give people who care about animals the incentive to do more.
> 
> and something i find very odd is that no one brings up anything about buying cheap chickens etc on other threads about animal cruelty...only fox hunting threads:confused1:
> 
> yep still 'banned' thank the lord shame the law is still flouted tho!


Unfortunately Noush its like everything.. if its banned some people just think its more exciting .... The same with dog fighting and all the other cruel sports and the same with drugs etc... Its society.. and there isn't anything crueler than man


----------



## cool-jim

noushka05 said:


> fox hunting can never be anything but cruel!:confused1:...........from the moment the chase begins its cruel!


Sorry, I put it wrong. You're right, Fox hunting should never be allowed again. Drag hunting would be fine if alot of things are done with it. But it has to be done by the Pro hunting community.


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Sorry, I put it wrong. You're right, Fox hunting should never be allowed again. Drag hunting would be fine if alot of things are done with it. But it has to be done by the Pro hunting community.


Now what would you change about drag hunting? I think I have answered all your questions now the best I can..


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> Now what would you change about drag hunting? I think I have answered all your questions now the best I can..


There are still issues about welfare of animals and ensuring the accidents that have happened in the past don't happen again. And also the "Rogue hunt masters" that you mentioned yourself need to be brought to heel. I'm sure others can go into more specific details.


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> There are still issues about welfare of animals and ensuring the accidents that have happened in the past don't happen again. And also the "Rogue hunt masters" that you mentioned yourself need to be brought to heel. I'm sure others can go into more specific details.


What accidents? can you point me to these accidents?


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> What accidents? can you point me to these accidents?


I'm not going back and looking, So can I please ask the nice person with the link to pet deaths to re post it please. Also even the Pro hunters have said about hounds following a drag scent going off of the scent to chase foxes and other animals.

Hopefully getting the above link won't take too long.


----------



## Inca's Mum

cool-jim said:


> Pro hunters have said about hounds following a drag scent going off of the scent to chase foxes and other animals.


When we were out on a drag hunt on Wednesday, the hounds did not chase any other animals but continued on the trail that had been set out. They left alone hares, deers, rabbits - didn't even bat their eyes!


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> I'm not going back and looking, So can I please ask the nice person with the link to pet deaths to re post it please. Also even the Pro hunters have said about hounds following a drag scent going off of the scent to chase foxes and other animals.
> 
> Hopefully getting the above link won't take too long.


I said that too about the hounds...

I was wondering if you were talking safety of the horses or the riders


----------



## bellathemog

Riders 'watch' as hounds tear into animal in garden

PRINCE Charles's favourite hunt is facing a police probe after its hounds ripped apart a fox in a family's back garden.

Homeowner Gwen Butler looked on in horror as the dogs savaged the cornered animal.

Hunt supporters who witnessed the killing apparently did nothing to prevent the sick spectacle.

Both Prince Charles and his son William regularly ride with the Beaufort Hunt, which passes near their Highgrove estate. They were not present when the killing took place.

Mrs Butler said: "The fox was chased into our backyard. The dogs just leapt on it. It was ripped apart.

"There were people on horseback following the hounds but they just watched. They apologised but didn't really seem to care. It was awful."

The killing comes after a member of Prince Philip's shooting party was seen stomping on an injured fox. He was photographed beating the defenceless animal over the head with a flag pole.

Members of the Beaufort Hunt are now set to be quizzed by police following Saturday's attack in Sherston, Wilts. A hunt spokeswoman said: "I understand that it was a very windy day and the trail scent obviously drifted.

"A small number of hounds followed the scent downwind and they must have run into a fox, which they then unfortunately caught.

"The accident was reported to the police and I understand the hunt apologised to those involved for any upset." Josey Sharrad, of the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said it was now time for the Beaufort Hunt to change its rules.

She believes new "trail hunting" techniques still cause foxes to suffer horrific deaths.

And she called on the hunt to switch to drag hunting - which does not involve foxes. She said: "Time and time again we are hearing cases of foxes suffering absolutely horrific deaths as a result of so-called trail hunting using a fox-based scent.

"If the hunt cannot control its hounds, perhaps it's time they abandoned this practice and switched instead to drag hunting."

Wiltshire Police confirmed they were investigating a report involving the death of a fox in Sherston.

A spokesman said: "Because this is an ongoing investigation it is not appropriate to make further comment."

The Beaufort Hunt is based at Badminton House, home of the Duke of Beaufort, in South Gloucestershire.

There are more than 300 members and on Saturday events as many as 200 riders have been known to take part. The hunt itself covers about 500sq miles, from Bath to Cirencester.

Around 800 horses are kept in the area for hunting.

Dukes of Beaufort have hunted in the area since the title was created in 1682.


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Riders 'watch' as hounds tear into animal in garden
> 
> PRINCE Charles's favourite hunt is facing a police probe after its hounds ripped apart a fox in a family's back garden.
> 
> Homeowner Gwen Butler looked on in horror as the dogs savaged the cornered animal.
> 
> Hunt supporters who witnessed the killing apparently did nothing to prevent the sick spectacle.
> 
> Both Prince Charles and his son William regularly ride with the Beaufort Hunt, which passes near their Highgrove estate. They were not present when the killing took place.
> 
> Mrs Butler said: "The fox was chased into our backyard. The dogs just leapt on it. It was ripped apart.
> 
> "There were people on horseback following the hounds but they just watched. They apologised but didn't really seem to care. It was awful."
> 
> The killing comes after a member of Prince Philip's shooting party was seen stomping on an injured fox. He was photographed beating the defenceless animal over the head with a flag pole.
> 
> Members of the Beaufort Hunt are now set to be quizzed by police following Saturday's attack in Sherston, Wilts. A hunt spokeswoman said: "I understand that it was a very windy day and the trail scent obviously drifted.
> 
> "A small number of hounds followed the scent downwind and they must have run into a fox, which they then unfortunately caught.
> 
> "The accident was reported to the police and I understand the hunt apologised to those involved for any upset." Josey Sharrad, of the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said it was now time for the Beaufort Hunt to change its rules.
> 
> She believes new "trail hunting" techniques still cause foxes to suffer horrific deaths.
> 
> And she called on the hunt to switch to drag hunting - which does not involve foxes. She said: "Time and time again we are hearing cases of foxes suffering absolutely horrific deaths as a result of so-called trail hunting using a fox-based scent.
> 
> "If the hunt cannot control its hounds, perhaps it's time they abandoned this practice and switched instead to drag hunting."
> 
> Wiltshire Police confirmed they were investigating a report involving the death of a fox in Sherston.
> 
> A spokesman said: "Because this is an ongoing investigation it is not appropriate to make further comment."
> 
> The Beaufort Hunt is based at Badminton House, home of the Duke of Beaufort, in South Gloucestershire.
> 
> There are more than 300 members and on Saturday events as many as 200 riders have been known to take part. The hunt itself covers about 500sq miles, from Bath to Cirencester.
> 
> Around 800 horses are kept in the area for hunting.
> 
> Dukes of Beaufort have hunted in the area since the title was created in 1682.


erro your back! how did the Xray go?


----------



## momentofmadness

bellathemog said:


> Riders 'watch' as hounds tear into animal in garden
> 
> PRINCE Charles's favourite hunt is facing a police probe after its hounds ripped apart a fox in a family's back garden.
> 
> Homeowner Gwen Butler looked on in horror as the dogs savaged the cornered animal.
> 
> Hunt supporters who witnessed the killing apparently did nothing to prevent the sick spectacle.
> 
> Both Prince Charles and his son William regularly ride with the Beaufort Hunt, which passes near their Highgrove estate. They were not present when the killing took place.
> 
> Mrs Butler said: "The fox was chased into our backyard. The dogs just leapt on it. It was ripped apart.
> 
> "There were people on horseback following the hounds but they just watched. They apologised but didn't really seem to care. It was awful."
> 
> The killing comes after a member of Prince Philip's shooting party was seen stomping on an injured fox. He was photographed beating the defenceless animal over the head with a flag pole.
> 
> Members of the Beaufort Hunt are now set to be quizzed by police following Saturday's attack in Sherston, Wilts. A hunt spokeswoman said: "I understand that it was a very windy day and the trail scent obviously drifted.
> 
> "A small number of hounds followed the scent downwind and they must have run into a fox, which they then unfortunately caught.
> 
> "The accident was reported to the police and I understand the hunt apologised to those involved for any upset." Josey Sharrad, of the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said it was now time for the Beaufort Hunt to change its rules.
> 
> She believes new "trail hunting" techniques still cause foxes to suffer horrific deaths.
> 
> And she called on the hunt to switch to drag hunting - which does not involve foxes. She said: "Time and time again we are hearing cases of foxes suffering absolutely horrific deaths as a result of so-called trail hunting using a fox-based scent.
> 
> "If the hunt cannot control its hounds, perhaps it's time they abandoned this practice and switched instead to drag hunting."
> 
> Wiltshire Police confirmed they were investigating a report involving the death of a fox in Sherston.
> 
> A spokesman said: "Because this is an ongoing investigation it is not appropriate to make further comment."
> 
> The Beaufort Hunt is based at Badminton House, home of the Duke of Beaufort, in South Gloucestershire.
> 
> There are more than 300 members and on Saturday events as many as 200 riders have been known to take part. The hunt itself covers about 500sq miles, from Bath to Cirencester.
> 
> Around 800 horses are kept in the area for hunting.
> 
> Dukes of Beaufort have hunted in the area since the title was created in 1682.


Drag hunting in our area.. they still use the hounds... They are given titbits through out the hunt... and then at the end they are given loads of raw..


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

There's been so many sweeping statements and generalisation made across this thread! I think one thing that we have to remember or even just believe in is that this is a pet forum - I don't think for one second that anyone on here would enjoy the unnecessary suffering of any animal. However, as it stands there are some that take place/agree with practices that can result in this. I for one could never be part of anything that could/does result in an animal going through horrendous suffering. Of course no one here agrees with battery chickens and other acts of animal cruelty - your preaching to the wrong choir i believe. I'm pretty sure most of the people on here buy free range, if not all the time then when they can. I mean I could just as easily say that because i'm a vegetarian you are all advocating animal cruelty by eating any form of meat . Of course it would be a silly, childish statement to make and only someone with a very tunnel like view of the world could. But this thread is about FOX HUNTING. People are implying like because there are people on here posting about their views on fox hunting they don't give a damn about other forms of cruelty! If others want to start a thread of cheap meat or dog fighting then please do because im positive you will get just as a passionate response as here . & as for the argument 'you just sit behind your computer and rant about it without actually doing anything' - your forgetting that this is a public forum and by people posting on here they are airing their views for the world to see. That imo is doing something - if one person reads this thread and questions their way of thinking. As for puppy farms and byb? Everyone who has bought a puppy from a reputable breed, rescued a dog, fostered dogs or even just forewarned others on here is working against them in my eyes. Not all people who go on drag hunts are bloodthirsty animals whos hounds are out of control. I am sure there are some who literally do just enjoy the day out and socialising with people they may not see any other time. Just like there are some who go 'drag hunting' - using it as a pretence to carry on like they have always done and in essence break the law and give real drag hunters a bad name. Like someone had already mentioned, the only way to ensure these people stop is for antis and drag hunters to work together, for the hounds and the foxes. As for the hunt picking up fallen stock, I have no problem with that, especially in the current economical climate. I won't lie, it does repulse me to think of the stock being fed back to the hounds, but on the other hand it is just the circle of life. Can i ask though, would the people who do this be happy if say you had two dogs, one died and you fed it to the other dog? Serious question. The statements about the cats :lol:. I mean you pretty much just compared fox hunters to cats! I hope they are more civilised, intelligent and less furry than cats! We all know that cats are hunters, its instinct for them to play with their prey no matter how sick it is. However, you'll find that the majority of people will take the prey away from their kitty if they catch them with it . x


----------



## Guest

To the person who sent me a pm!
I dont do pm's!
You got summat to say! say it on the thread!
Anyone who has oat to say then say it on the thread!

No seriously guys! dont you think it were time this thread were closed!


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> To the person who sent me a pm!
> I dont do pm's!
> 
> No seriously guys! dont you think it were time this thread were closed!


 wanna forward it to me  :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> There's been so many sweeping statements and generalisation made across this thread! I think one thing that we have to remember or even just believe in is that this is a pet forum - I don't think for one second that anyone on here would enjoy the unnecessary suffering of any animal. However, as it stands there are some that take place/agree with practices that can result in this. I for one could never be part of anything that could/does result in an animal going through horrendous suffering. Of course no one here agrees with battery chickens and other acts of animal cruelty - your preaching to the wrong choir i believe. I'm pretty sure most of the people on here buy free range, if not all the time then when they can. I mean I could just as easily say that because i'm a vegetarian you are all advocating animal cruelty by eating any form of meat . Of course it would be a silly, childish statement to make and only someone with a very tunnel like view of the world could. But this thread is about FOX HUNTING. People are implying like because there are people on here posting about their views on fox hunting they don't give a damn about other forms of cruelty! If others want to start a thread of cheap meat or dog fighting then please do because im positive you will get just as a passionate response as here . & as for the argument 'you just sit behind your computer and rant about it without actually doing anything' - your forgetting that this is a public forum and by people posting on here they are airing their views for the world to see. That imo is doing something - if one person reads this thread and questions their way of thinking. As for puppy farms and byb? Everyone who has bought a puppy from a reputable breed, rescued a dog, fostered dogs or even just forewarned others on here is working against them in my eyes. Not all people who go on drag hunts are bloodthirsty animals whos hounds are out of control. I am sure there are some who literally do just enjoy the day out and socialising with people they may not see any other time. Just like there are some who go 'drag hunting' - using it as a pretence to carry on like they have always done and in essence break the law and give real drag hunters a bad name. Like someone had already mentioned, the only way to ensure these people stop is for antis and drag hunters to work together, for the hounds and the foxes. As for the hunt picking up fallen stock, I have no problem with that, especially in the current economical climate. I won't lie, it does repulse me to think of the stock being fed back to the hounds, but on the other hand it is just the circle of life. Can i ask though, would the people who do this be happy if say you had two dogs, one died and you fed it to the other dog? Serious question. The statements about the cats :lol:. I mean you pretty much just compared fox hunters to cats! I hope they are more civilised, intelligent and less furry than cats! We all know that cats are hunters, its instinct for them to play with their prey no matter how sick it is. However, you'll find that the majority of people will take the prey away from their kitty if they catch them with it . x


I struggled to read all that then.. But I did.. and I can personally say I hold no grunges against anyone regardless of what you preach.. we are all human, and we have a right to agree or disagree.. xxx


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> No seriously guys! dont you think it were time this thread were closed!


no... why?:eek6:


----------



## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> To the person who sent me a pm!
> I dont do pm's!
> You got summat to say! say it on the thread!
> Anyone who has oat to say then say it on the thread!
> 
> No seriously guys! dont you think it were time this thread were closed!





noushka05 said:


> no... why?:eek6:


Just so long as they keep it on the thread thats fine by me!


----------



## Waterlily

noushka05 said:


> no... why?:eek6:


cos she has nothing else to say  :ciappa: :ciappa: :ciappa: :dita:   :drool: :incazzato: :sosp: ohh look diff smileys on my box :001_wub:


----------



## smudgiesmummy

noushka05 said:


> no... why?:eek6:


because its going on and on and on and on and on , the same things are been said over and over again

where are the mods anyway ? not one that i have seen as made a comment on here, just wondering what their thoughts were on the topic

(sorry if they have posted just its now that long im not even going to search )


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> To the person who sent me a pm!
> I dont do pm's!
> You got summat to say! say it on the thread!
> Anyone who has oat to say then say it on the thread!
> 
> No seriously guys! dont you think it were time this thread were closed!


You can say it was me that PM'd you. It was off topic so why would I put it on the thread. It was also a personal message saying I don't want fighting between forum members. We're now getting the thread back in line so I'll say no more off topic.

Sorry WL.


----------



## smudgiesmummy

DoubleTrouble said:


> Just so long as they keep it on the thread thats fine by me!


this topic as gone past being on topic, its now got at least 6 topics going at once


----------



## Guest

Oh! but I have plenty to say Waterlily"! it will take more then them to silence me!
Just wanna make it clear that I dont want pm's from the bleaters!!
Anyone got oat to ay then say it out in the open!


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> You can say it was me that PM'd you. It was off topic so why would I put it on the thread. It was also a personal message saying I don't want fighting between forum members. We're now getting the thread back in line so I'll say no more off topic.
> 
> Sorry WL.


Hey! show me where I've been fighting?! Im on your fecking side!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Just so long as they keep it on the thread thats fine by me!


oh right thanks lol



Waterlily said:


> cos she has nothing else to say  :ciappa: :ciappa: :ciappa: :dita:   :drool: :incazzato: :sosp: ohh look diff smileys on my box :001_wub:


hahaa thats more like it:lol:



smudge2009 said:


> because its going on and on and on and on and on , the same things are been said over and over again
> 
> where are the mods anyway ? not one that i have seen as made a comment on here, just wondering what their thoughts were on the topic
> 
> (sorry if they have posted just its now that long im not even going to search )


but it dosent need to be closed it just fizzle out of its own accord like other threads do


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey! show me where I've been fighting?! Im on your fecking side!


Which is what I said in the PM.

Can we get back on topic agaain please.

Sorry again WL.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> oh right thanks lol
> 
> hahaa thats more like it:lol:
> 
> but it dosent need to be closed it just fizzle out of its own accord like other threads do


Noush! I agree with you!
But I will not have folk pm'ing me and asking me to play nicely!
Especially when I have been doing just that!


----------



## noushka05

oh i mis read your post DT i thought you meant to keep it on track sorry


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> Which is what I said in the PM.
> 
> Can we get back on topic agaain please.
> 
> Sorry again WL.


You show me where I woz fighting and I'll get back on topic!


----------



## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Noush! I agree with you!
> But I will not have folk pm'ing me and asking me to play nicely!
> Especially when I have been doing just that!


i misunderstood your post no nasty pms are waaay out of order!


----------



## cool-jim

noushka05 said:


> i misunderstood your post no nasty pms are waaay out of order!


Oi, I'm not capable of nasty.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> i misunderstood your post no nasty pms are waaay out of order!


It weren't nasty Noush! just asking me to watch what I was saying in a roundabout way! which I would take on the chin if I had said anything wrong! but seeing as I hadn't I wont!


----------



## Waterlily

cool-jim said:


> You can say it was me that PM'd you. It was off topic so why would I put it on the thread. It was also a personal message saying I don't want fighting between forum members. We're now getting the thread back in line so I'll say no more off topic.
> 
> Sorry WL.





DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh! but I have plenty to say Waterlily"! it will take more then them to silence me!
> Just wanna make it clear that I dont want pm's from the bleaters!!
> Anyone got oat to ay then say it out in the open!





cool-jim said:


> Which is what I said in the PM.
> 
> Can we get back on topic agaain please.
> 
> Sorry again WL.


ummm why the apologies to me :confused1: I dont know what ya on about I was joking to DT she knows I was :arf: right DT :scared:


----------



## cool-jim

Right, time to clear this up.

It was your attitude towards another member. To me you were out of order saying about Bellathemog not being on and you hoped she'd been taken by a hunt. As i said in the PM, I want you both playing nice as you are meant to be on the same side. 
So now back on topic please, and this is my final message on this subject.


----------



## cool-jim

Waterlily said:


> ummm why the apologies to me :confused1: I dont know what ya on about I was joking to DT she knows I was :arf: right DT :scared:


For keep going off topic. I know how much you hate it.

Sorry again.


----------



## bird

smudge2009 said:


> where are the mods anyway ? not one that i have seen as made a comment on here, just wondering what their thoughts were on the topic


I'm about.  As for my views. been aired once or twice before on this subject.


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> Right, time to clear this up.
> 
> It was your attitude towards another member. To me you were out of order saying about Bellathemog not being on and you hoped she'd been taken by a hunt. As i said in the PM, I want you both playing nice as you are meant to be on the same side.
> So now back on topic please, and this is my final message on this subject.


Cool Jim!
I suggest you look back at what bellathemog said!
before you strat pulling me for pieces about what I said!

Coz All I will say to both of you is! if you cant stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen!
End of


----------



## noushka05

cool-jim said:


> Oi, I'm not capable of nasty.


lol sorry for jumping to conclusions Jim :blush:..



DoubleTrouble said:


> It weren't nasty Noush! just asking me to watch what I was saying in a roundabout way! which I would take on the chin if I had said anything wrong! but seeing as I hadn't I wont!


well maybe it stems from the other day when it was going off topic quite a lot and looked in danger of closure to me, i havent read all the posts from yesterday and today so cant comment


----------



## Waterlily

cool-jim said:


> Right, time to clear this up.
> 
> It was your attitude towards another member. To me you were out of order saying about Bellathemog not being on and you hoped she'd been taken by a hunt. As i said in the PM, I want you both playing nice as you are meant to be on the same side.
> So now back on topic please, and this is my final message on this subject.


ohh geez  go's both ways and she was damn rude to DT  besides its pf and like in australia we have a saying " if ya dont like it leave"  :lol: :lol:



cool-jim said:


> For keep going off topic. I know how much you hate it.
> 
> Sorry again.


wtf :confused1: I always go off topic :scared: dont bother me think ya have me mixed up :lol: :lol:


----------



## smudgiesmummy

bird said:


> I'm about.  As for my views. been aired once or twice before on this subject.


thought u may of flown off with the ammount of replys :lol: :lol: :lol: , good to see you about


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> ohh geez  go's both ways and she was damn rude to DT  besides its pf and like in australia we have a saying " if ya dont like it leave"  :lol: :lol:
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Waterlily went to specsavers!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## cool-jim

There's a nasty rumour that this thread is locked and that it's my fault. have I been nasty to anyone


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> There's a nasty rumour that this thread is locked and that it's my fault. have I been nasty to anyone


Nope! jou havn't Jim! And apolgises for anyone it I have led them to believe it were locked! I had read remarks in my rep that said N/A and assumed it were!
Sorry for the confusion!


----------



## Waterlily

cool-jim said:


> There's a nasty rumour that this thread is locked and that it's my fault. have I been nasty to anyone


aw we always bicker its fun :thumbup: but we always get over it too


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> aw we always bicker its fun :thumbup: but we always get over it too


Eventually!:scared::scared::scared: some of us quicker then others Depending on the thickness of our skin like! and seeing as your's is like rhino hide!


----------



## Bandy

DoubleTrouble said:


> Eventually!:scared::scared::scared: some of us quicker then others Depending on the thickness of our skin like! *and seeing as your's is like rhino hide!*


That made me lol cuz it's damn true.

:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> Eventually!:scared::scared::scared: some of us quicker then others Depending on the thickness of our skin like! and seeing as your's is like rhino hide!


:lol: :lol: hey I use sorbulene thankyou my skin is soft as the babys on heres bottoms :thumbup: :scared: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Waterlily

Bandy said:


> That made me lol cuz it's damn true.
> 
> :thumbup::thumbup:


umm read above  soft as a bubbys butt :arf: :lol:


----------



## Guest

Waterlily said:


> :lol: :lol: hey I use sorbulene thankyou my skin is soft as the babys on heres bottoms :thumbup: :scared: :lol: :lol:


yeah right! as soft as a rhinos jacksy!:thumbup:


----------



## Waterlily

DoubleTrouble said:


> yeah right! as soft as a rhinos jacksy!:thumbup:


aww you wanna feel it dont ya  just to make sure :lol: :lol:


----------



## cool-jim

> You are actually way off target there Jim! your 'friend' came on hurling insults at me from the start! (these have I note been deleted! )Unfortunately for her I am not one to sit back! The ironic thing is she were fighting someone who was in her corner! So if you are looking for someone to blame them look at your mates (or should I say other halfs) back door! Shame really!


My other half? It's a long way between Rickmansworth and Bury St Edmunds.

As I said, I contacted you both. Bella actually listened to me which is why she hasn't posted except on topic. I'm trying to fight for the fox here but I can't do it if I have to keep going back several pages to get to the answers I'm replying to.


----------



## Guest

cool-jim said:


> My other half? It's a long way between Rickmansworth and Bury St Edmunds.
> 
> As I said, I contacted you both. Bella actually listened to me which is why she hasn't posted except on topic. I'm trying to fight for the fox here but I can't do it if I have to keep going back several pages to get to the answers I'm replying to.


Anyone can put their destination anywhere!
There have been many more fighting for the fox afore you! Noushka, Janice & Spellweaver to name but a few! All doing a slendid job!:thumbup:

Not suggesting that you were insultive, you weren't! BUT I cannot for the life of me see why you should pm me! her yes - but me no! Has it actuallyy occured to you that the reason the other party listened was perhaps because they realized that they 'had' been bang out of order!


----------



## cool-jim

DoubleTrouble said:


> Anyone can put their destination anywhere!
> There have been many more fighting for the fox afore you! Noushka, Janice & Spellweaver to name but a few! All doing a slendid job!:thumbup:
> 
> Not suggesting that you were insultive, you weren't! BUT I cannot for the life of me see why you should pm me! her yes - but me no! Has it actuallyy occured to you that the reason the other party listened was perhaps because they realized that they 'had' been bang out of order!


Has it not occured to you that 2 people were having a go, and as you've said above the other party listened. She wasn't the only one that was out of order. But at least she could see it. You're still protesting your innocense.

I've had enough. this threads had it now.

Enjoy yourselves.


----------



## momentofmadness

Well I been the pub..lol I worked out... it was 70 of my foot steps to the shop for the Dr Pepper and only 30 of my foot steps for me to go the pub!!!!! Mwah hahahaahhahah Please dis regard anything I say from here..lol The keys all loook the same and toiok me agooooood 10 mins and two fargs to put this,, And I luuuuuuuuuuuurve you all regardles of what ya saaaasyyyy!


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> Has it not occured to you that 2 people were having a go, and as you've said above the other party listened. She wasn't the only one that was out of order. But at least she could see it. You're still protesting your innocense.
> 
> I've had enough. this threads had it now.
> 
> Enjoy yourselves.


And was I out off order? I hate being a twerp.. but we alllll lurve a twerp right.. tally hooooooooo!


----------



## momentofmadness

momentofmadness said:


> Well I been the pub..lol I worked out... it was 70 of my foot steps to the shop for the Dr Pepper and only 30 of my foot steps for me to go the pub!!!!! Mwah hahahaahhahah Please dis regard anything I say from here..lol The keys all loook the same and toiok me agooooood 10 mins and two fargs to put this,, And I luuuuuuuuuuuurve you all regardles of what ya saaaasyyyy!


I meant im not sure I think of what I say.. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Waterlily

momentofmadness said:


> Well I been the pub..lol I worked out... it was 70 of my foot steps to the shop for the Dr Pepper and only 30 of my foot steps for me to go the pub!!!!! Mwah hahahaahhahah Please dis regard anything I say from here..lol The keys all loook the same and toiok me agooooood 10 mins and two fargs to put this,, And I luuuuuuuuuuuurve you all regardles of what ya saaaasyyyy!





momentofmadness said:


> And was I out off order? I hate being a twerp.. but we alllll lurve a twerp right.. tally hooooooooo!





momentofmadness said:


> I meant im not sure I think of what I say.. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


have a good drink did ya :thumbup: :lol: :lol:

bloody pisstank  :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

Waterlily said:


> have a good drink did ya :thumbup: :lol: :lol:
> 
> bloody pisstank  :lol: :lol: :lol:


I just read this threeead a hunt saboteurs? i take it the thread has changed names?


----------



## momentofmadness

Waterlily said:


> have a good drink did ya :thumbup: :lol: :lol:
> 
> bloody pisstank  :lol: :lol: :lol:


Bloody faaaaantastic.. played a few gamessssss of pooool and kicked the bums.. LOL the didna like tttthat mwah hah hwea


----------



## Waterlily

momentofmadness said:


> Bloody faaaaantastic.. played a few gamessssss of pooool and kicked the bums.. LOL the didna like tttthat mwah hah hwea


:lol: :lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

Waterlily said:


> :lol: :lol:


Just me an u left WL.. Dr Peps.. is bringing me right back down... LOL and the dozen of space raiders a got too.. XXXXX


----------



## momentofmadness

I say.. me and u WL and the dawgs behind me wi the Farts.. cor.. talk about sobering up... I need one f them gas mask things.. lol


----------



## Spellweaver

cool-jim said:


> Which is why the hunts need to be the ones that do something. Because they will always stand together against the anti's which is why nothing has been achieved yet. It's pointless everyone fighting, the anti's need pro's that are anti cruelty to expose and stop the cruel members of the hunt community.
> 
> I hope that makes sense cos i'm not great with language.


This is one of the most valid points that has been made on here. Rep coming your way hun!

There have been several pro-hunters on this thread who have insisted that they are animal lovers and that they do not like the killing aspect of hunting - well, why are you not doing something about it? Why are you not working from the inside to make those hunters who do enjoy the kill realise how wrong that is? Why do you close your eyes and ears and pretend that if it doesn't happen in your hunt, or that it does happen in your hunt but you rarely see it, then everything is ok? Instead of finding more and more ridiculous excuses to justify your behaviour (I'm still shaking my head in disbelief over the racism excuse), why not admit everything is FAR from being ok, and work towards making it ok so that you CAN enjoy your choice of pasttime without being indirectly involved, or invloved by association, in barbaric acts of cruelty?

We antis can protest until we are blue in the face. But as Cool-jim points out, if you pros who say you are animal lovers actually put your money where your mouth is and stand up from within for what you say you believe in, great strides could be made.


----------



## momentofmadness

Spellweaver said:


> This is one of the most valid points that has been made on here. Rep coming your way hun!
> 
> There have been several pro-hunters on this thread who have insisted that they are animal lovers and that they do not like the killing aspect of hunting - well, why are you not doing something about it? Why are you not working from the inside to make those hunters who do enjoy the kill realise how wrong that is? Why do you close your eyes and ears and pretend that if it doesn't happen in your hunt, or that it does happen in your hunt but you rarely see it, then everything is ok? Instead of finding more and more ridiculous excuses to justify your behaviour (I'm still shaking my head in disbelief over the racism excuse), why not admit everything is FAR from being ok, and work towards making it ok so that you CAN enjoy your choice of pasttime without being indirectly involved, or invloved by association, in barbaric acts of cruelty?
> 
> We antis can protest until we are blue in the face. But as Cool-jim points out, if you pros who say you are animal lovers actually put your money where your mouth is and stand up from within for what you say you believe in, great strides could be made.


As I have said.. not been near a hunt for 3 years but 3 years ago i didn't have to worry about the killing of foxes.. Cause it wasn't happening! who has been racist? The hunt does drag hunting which is a scent on hooves or rag.... end of!


----------



## momentofmadness

Spellweaver said:


> This is one of the most valid points that has been made on here. Rep coming your way hun!
> 
> There have been several pro-hunters on this thread who have insisted that they are animal lovers and that they do not like the killing aspect of hunting - well, why are you not doing something about it? Why are you not working from the inside to make those hunters who do enjoy the kill realise how wrong that is? Why do you close your eyes and ears and pretend that if it doesn't happen in your hunt, or that it does happen in your hunt but you rarely see it, then everything is ok? Instead of finding more and more ridiculous excuses to justify your behaviour (I'm still shaking my head in disbelief over the racism excuse), why not admit everything is FAR from being ok, and work towards making it ok so that you CAN enjoy your choice of pasttime without being indirectly involved, or invloved by association, in barbaric acts of cruelty?
> 
> We antis can protest until we are blue in the face. But as Cool-jim points out, if you pros who say you are animal lovers actually put your money where your mouth is and stand up from within for what you say you believe in, great strides could be made.


And i have asked if their is a problem with too many foxes or there was to be.. how would it be resolved.. one anti answered me and i replied!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Spellweaver

Inca's Mum said:


> When we were out on a drag hunt on Wednesday, the hounds did not chase any other animals but continued on the trail that had been set out. They left alone hares, deers, rabbits - didn't even bat their eyes!


So luckily no wild animals were terrorised or ripped to shreds - that time, at least.


----------



## FerretloverUK

i used to hunt for years, NO foxes were ripped to shreds at any hunt i attended. the lead dog has orders to go in kill it then the pack go in. The will rarely catch a fit young fox. Im not saying it NEVER happened but its usually a young pack that are learning that get outta hand and all go in, hence they seem to be the only reports/photos that get publicised!

Fox Hunting STILL goes on to this day, illegal or not. It will never be enforced due to Police having better things to do. But i respect opinions both sides ( but HATE SABS). I DO NOT agree with sending terriers down or digging the fox out.

I havent got horses anymore but i still go to watch & still go rabbiting with some of my ferrets. Rabbits caught are eaten.


----------



## Spellweaver

momentofmadness said:


> And i have asked if their is a problem with too many foxes or there was to be.. how would it be resolved.. one anti answered me and i replied!!!!!!!!!!!


Re possible problem with too many foxes - I've already suggested on about three posts on here that if there is a problem (and I don't think there is) then it could be solved by humane cage traps and then shooting.

Re racism - can't remember the username - it was IncasMum's sister - who was trying to say that, because of immigration, fox hunting was the only bit of our heritage that we had left and challenged anyone to prove her wrong. (To be fair, I don't really think they were her own views - from what she said in her post, she was quoting someone who had obviously been brainwashing her at a hunt she had been to that day). I gave her a huge list of traditional countryside pursuits that were part of our heritage and still going strong - she did not have the decency to reply.


----------



## momentofmadness

Spellweaver said:


> Re possible problem with too many foxes - I've already suggested on about three posts on here that if there is a problem (and I don't think there is) then it could be solved be humane cage traps and then shooting.
> 
> Re racism - can't remember the username - it was IncasMum's sister - who was trying to say that, because of immigration, fox hunting was the only bit of our heritage that we had left and challenged anyone to prove her wrong. (To be fair, I don't really think they were her own views - from what she said in her post, she was quoting somone who had obviously been brainwashing her at a hunt she had been to that day). I gave her a huge list of traditional countryside pursuits that were part of our heritage and still going strong - she did not have the decency to reply.


Hun.. only you are replying.. what about all the others that seem to be in the know... 
And I dont see what race has to do with hunting.. I know a few different raced people who used to go out hunting...


----------



## MissShelley

Spellweaver said:


> Re possible problem with too many foxes - I've already suggested on about three posts on here that if there is a problem (and I don't think there is) then it could be solved by humane cage traps and then shooting.
> 
> Re racism - can't remember the username - it was IncasMum's sister - who was trying to say that, because of immigration, fox hunting was the only bit of our heritage that we had left and challenged anyone to prove her wrong. (To be fair, I don't really think they were her own views - from what she said in her post, she was quoting someone who had obviously been brainwashing her at a hunt she had been to that day). *I gave her a huge list of traditional countryside pursuits that were part of our heritage and still going strong - she did not have the decency to reply*.


She does that often. I asked her to clarify what she meant by 'punishing' a hound that outed a fox on drag hunt, and I got evasive answer.

Still waiting because i'm still curious.


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> And i have asked if their is a problem with too many foxes or there was to be.. how would it be resolved.. one anti answered me and i replied!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't for one moment believe there IS a problem with to many foxes. It's been shown that foxes are bred by hunts to kill, very much the same reason birds are bred to shoot. How can those who enjoy blood sports claim they provide a means of pest control by killing foxes while deliberately breeding them 

Hunters 'breeding foxes' to provide for the kill | UK news | The Observer

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/more-hunts-in-foxbreeding-scandal-1167735.html

Foxes as I understand maintain their own levels if left to it, as Mother Nature intended


----------



## Amethyst

bellathemog said:


> Riders 'watch' as hounds tear into animal in garden
> 
> PRINCE Charles's favourite hunt is facing a police probe after its hounds ripped apart a fox in a family's back garden.
> 
> Homeowner Gwen Butler looked on in horror as the dogs savaged the cornered animal.
> 
> Hunt supporters who witnessed the killing apparently did nothing to prevent the sick spectacle.
> 
> Both Prince Charles and his son William regularly ride with the Beaufort Hunt, which passes near their Highgrove estate. They were not present when the killing took place.
> 
> Mrs Butler said: "The fox was chased into our backyard. The dogs just leapt on it. It was ripped apart.
> 
> "There were people on horseback following the hounds but they just watched. They apologised but didn't really seem to care. It was awful."


What a terrible thing to happen, an another example of the hunters showing no respect for the public or their property 

Another fox ripped apart for entertainment ...


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> And i have asked if their is a problem with too many foxes or there was to be.. how would it be resolved.. one anti answered me and i replied!!!!!!!!!!!


wouldnt it be nice if farmers and landowners were more enlightened and instead of killing the foxes they took measures to protect their livestock Alpacas are proven livestock guards even prince charles has them...Mr Fox kept away by my alpacas | Horse and Country TV website ...there are predator friendly farm across the USA where they have lots more predators to worry about than a fox



Amethyst said:


> I don't for one moment believe there IS a problem with to many foxes. It's been shown that foxes are bred by hunts to kill, very much the same reason birds are bred to shoot. How can those who enjoy blood sports claim they provide a means of pest control by killing foxes while deliberately breeding them
> 
> Hunters 'breeding foxes' to provide for the kill | UK news | The Observer
> 
> More hunts in fox-breeding scandal - News - The Independent
> 
> Foxes as I understand maintain their own levels if left to it, as Mother Nature intended


so true!



Amethyst said:


> What a terrible thing to happen, an another example of the hunters showing no respect for the public or their property
> 
> Another fox ripped apart for entertainment ...


what the hell is wrong with these people!


----------



## skyblue

FerretloverUK said:


> i used to hunt for years, NO foxes were ripped to shreds at any hunt i attended. the lead dog has orders to go in kill it then the pack go in. The will rarely catch a fit young fox. Im not saying it NEVER happened but its usually a young pack that are learning that get outta hand and all go in, hence they seem to be the only reports/photos that get publicised!
> 
> Fox Hunting STILL goes on to this day, illegal or not. It will never be enforced due to Police having better things to do. But i respect opinions both sides ( but HATE SABS). I DO NOT agree with sending terriers down or digging the fox out.
> 
> I havent got horses anymore but i still go to watch & still go rabbiting with some of my ferrets. Rabbits caught are eaten.


with a bit of luck i'll be going rabbiting soon:thumbup:


----------



## simplysardonic

noushka05 said:


> *wouldnt it be nice if farmers and landowners were more enlightened and instead of killing the foxes they took measures to protect their livestock* Alpacas are proven livestock guards even prince charles has them


Totally agree, always wondered this myself, surely it's not that hard to provide better protection for their stock:confused1:


----------



## Guest

Agh! would love an Alpaca but have you seem how much they are! and dunno how my two would get on with them, and as for being able to look after one! wouldn't know where to start!


----------



## simplysardonic

DoubleTrouble said:


> Agh! would love an Alpaca but have you seem how much they are! and dunno how my two would get on with them, and as for being able to look after one! wouldn't know where to start!


I think they're absolutely brilliant:thumbup: my daughter met one & took it for a walk at our village fete last year & she's totally smitten too


----------



## momentofmadness

Just wondering how much damage they would do to the boggy farm land.. and maybe over here this is why they dont have em..?


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> I think they're absolutely brilliant:thumbup: my daughter met one & took it for a walk at our village fete last year & she's totally smitten too


Yep! I adore them!
But in response to Noushas thread regarding them being good guards would not like to think of folk like me taking them on and knowing nuffing about em!

BUT! Noush! your point were very valid!! MOST farmers I would think would have a dog on the premises at the very least (and I don't mean a foxhound) that would alert them if Mr Fox were on the prowl! Mine certainly would !


----------



## Inca's Mum

DoubleTrouble said:


> Agh! would love an Alpaca but have you seem how much they are! and dunno how my two would get on with them, and as for being able to look after one! wouldn't know where to start!


We're investigating them at the yard wanting to get some but for a pack of 3 (the recommended number...) the cheapest we could find was £15,000! :scared:


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> We're investigating them at the yard wanting to get some but for a pack of 3 (the recommended number...) the cheapest we could find was £15,000! :scared:


Have seen em as low as £800 - but think nrmally they are between £2 - 3k but as I said I know nuffing about em! they have em at white post farm though


----------



## Natik

u can buy alpacas for as little as a few hundred of pounds, those who have no breeding potential and are castrated.

A alpaca is also cheaper to look after than a dog


----------



## simplysardonic

Natik said:


> u can buy alpacas for as little as a few hundred of pounds, those who have no breeding potential and are castrated.
> 
> A alpaca is also cheaper to look after than a dog


I imagine they need quite a bit of space though!


----------



## Natik

simplysardonic said:


> I imagine they need quite a bit of space though!


"How much acreage is needed to keep alpacas? 
They are an ideal small acreage livestock. You can comfortably stock between five and ten animals per acre. This makes the alpaca ideal for people who have only a few acres and who want the pleasure of a small herd and a healthy investment return."


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Have seen em as low as £800 - but think nrmally they are between £2 - 3k but as I said I know nuffing about em! they have em at white post farm though


i love white post farm :thumbup:
off topic i know sorry


----------



## Guest

Inca's Mum said:


> We're investigating them at the yard wanting to get some but for a pack of 3 (the recommended number...) the cheapest we could find was £15,000! :scared:


£15000!!! 

Give me a one-way flight ticket to Peru and I could probably get a dozen for £100 and ride them back to the UK one way or another. :lol:


----------



## Guest

ClaireLouise said:


> i love white post farm :thumbup:
> off topic i know sorry


Havn't been for a couple of year Claire! :remember last time I was gobsmacked at what they were selling some caged animal s for - but cannot remember for the life of me remember what they were! I'm half thinking kittens - but I must be wrong!

Yep! I like the place too!
And whats that place they have opened over the road? forgotton what that was too!


----------



## Guest

can ya eat them:thumbup:


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Havn't been for a couple of year Claire! :remember last time I was gobsmacked at what they were selling some caged animal s for - but cannot remember for the life of me what they were! I'm half thinking kittens - but I must be wrong!


Ive only ever seen them selling rabbits and other small furries. They are expensive but they are well looked after I think


----------



## simplysardonic

Natik said:


> "How much acreage is needed to keep alpacas?
> They are an ideal small acreage livestock. You can comfortably stock between five and ten animals per acre. This makes the alpaca ideal for people who have only a few acres and who want the pleasure of a small herd and a healthy investment return."


OMG thats quite a few
If I ever get some land I'm so looking into a couple as pets


----------



## ClaireLouise

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep! I like the place too!
> And whats that place they have opened over the road? forgotton what that was too!


wheelgate.... We have never been but we are gonna go sometime this year, will let u know what its like. It used to be the butterfly farm didnt it?


----------



## simplysardonic

borderer said:


> can ya eat them:thumbup:


from what I've read, no, but I'm sure you'd give it a go!


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> from what I've read, no, but I'm sure you'd give it a go!


McAlpaca burger, yeah baby!!! :ihih:


----------



## Guest

Chillinator said:


> McAlpaca burger, yeah baby!!! :ihih:


good man:thumbup:


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Just wondering how much damage they would do to the boggy farm land.. and maybe over here this is why they dont have em..?


they dont do any damage....Alpacas Have Minimal Environmental Impact
Alpacas walk gently on the earth. Their softly padded feet leave the pasture they walk on undamaged. Alpacas graze on grass without pulling it up by the roots. Alpacas dont cause damage to trees, preferring to eat grass and bushes. But sometimes they will eat the lower leaves on trees until all your trees are nicely trimmed at the same level.

and we do have them over here quite a few farmers are using them over hear and with amazing results:thumbup:



DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep! I adore them!
> But in response to Noushas thread regarding them being good guards would not like to think of folk like me taking them on and knowing nuffing about em!
> 
> BUT! Noush! your point were very valid!! MOST farmers I would think would have a dog on the premises at the very least (and I don't mean a foxhound) that would alert them if Mr Fox were on the prowl! Mine certainly would !


trouble is most farmers are pretty set in their ways and dont really try to protect their animals from foxes....tis easier for them to just kill em



Inca's Mum said:


> We're investigating them at the yard wanting to get some but for a pack of 3 (the recommended number...) the cheapest we could find was £15,000! :scared:


jeezus are you importing them from Peru



Natik said:


> u can buy alpacas for as little as a few hundred of pounds, those who have no breeding potential and are castrated.
> 
> A alpaca is also cheaper to look after than a dog


ive seen them at these sorts of prices aswell



simplysardonic said:


> Totally agree, always wondered this myself, surely it's not that hard to provide better protection for their stock:confused1:


i think its irresponsible not to protect them tbh


----------



## Guest

borderer said:


> good man:thumbup:


I think the ladies would probably hang us by our toenails however...


----------



## bellathemog

Natik said:


> u can buy alpacas for as little as a few hundred of pounds, those who have no breeding potential and are castrated.
> 
> A alpaca is also cheaper to look after than a dog


Plus free wooly jumpers for life:thumbup:


----------



## Guest

bellathemog said:


> Plus free wooly jumpers for life:thumbup:


But I cant, knit!:scared:
There used to be a couple of girls at the shows we used to do - they were called alpacha - obviously they were selling jumpers and knitted goods! they were fantastic! but a hell of a price!

But my guess is the girls were importing the jumpers from their mother country as I would have guessed them to be peruvian


----------



## bellathemog

DoubleTrouble said:


> But I cant, knit!:scared:
> There used to be a couple of girls at the shows we used to do - they were called alpacha - obviously they were selling jumpers and knitted goods! they were fantastic! but a hell of a price!
> 
> But my guess is the girls were importing the jumpers from their mother country as I would have guessed them to be peruvian


There is a childs day centre near me they have a pack of them and sell the wool for funds towards the day centre. Its pretty ££

Do these spitt or is that the lamas?


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> they dont do any damage....Alpacas Have Minimal Environmental Impact
> Alpacas walk gently on the earth. Their softly padded feet leave the pasture they walk on undamaged. Alpacas graze on grass without pulling it up by the roots. Alpacas dont cause damage to trees, preferring to eat grass and bushes. But sometimes they will eat the lower leaves on trees until all your trees are nicely trimmed at the same level.
> 
> and we do have them over here quite a few farmers are using them over hear and with amazing results:thumbup:


There is some in warry.. In glazebury with a for sale alpaca's sign on the field.. 
Ive had one meeting with them.. not these for sale.. but at another place.. and I didn't like there manners.. lol It smiled at our Jamie showing its teeth..lol then sort of spat and spluttered at him.. left me scarred for life.. LOL And t be honest the grass they are on... was a lovely field but is now quite wrecked..


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> There is some in warry.. In glazebury with a for sale alpaca's sign on the field..
> Ive had one meeting with them.. not these for sale.. but at another place.. and I didn't like there manners.. lol It smiled at our Jamie showing its teeth..lol then sort of spat and spluttered at him.. left me scarred for life.. LOL And t be honest the grass they are on... was a lovely field but is now quite wrecked..


lol thats really bad luck to get spat at by one because apparantly its very rare for them to spit at a human

and the field was probably wrecked by some other beast...ive taken this from one of the many Alpaca websites and they all say pretty much the same...... •Do Alpacas damage land?
Alpacas have soft padded feet so they don't damage pasture, even when it's very wet.


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> lol thats really bad luck to get spat at by one because apparantly its very rare for them to spit at a human
> 
> and the field was probably wrecked by some other beast...ive taken this from one of the many Alpaca websites and they all say pretty much the same...... Do Alpacas damage land?
> Alpacas have soft padded feet so they don't damage pasture, even when it's very wet.


Well our jamie is a right little.. erm......

And nope before the alpaca's came there wasn't anything grazed on their.. it was used for straw.. So the field was turned and re sowed with grass.. left ages.. I remember cause we used to go passed every day.. then some time after all fenced off and they appeared..lol.. like out of no where:scared:


----------



## Guest

One question though Noush? do they poo like sheep! because manuex would be constantly following em around! In goathland last year it were scary! he were like a poo bag after the sheep!


----------



## momentofmadness

DoubleTrouble said:


> One question though Noush? do they poo like sheep! because manuex would be constantly following em around! In goathland last year it were scary! he were like a poo bag after the sheep!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## noushka05

momentofmadness said:


> Well our jamie is a right little.. erm......
> 
> And nope before the alpaca's came there wasn't anything grazed on their.. it was used for straw.. So the field was turned and re sowed with grass.. left ages.. I remember cause we used to go passed every day.. then some time after all fenced off and they appeared..lol.. like out of no where:scared:


hmm thats really strange when they seem to be one of the few livestock who do no damage to pasture:confused1: maybe its because the owner had far too many then or something, have to say it does sound to me like he was doing something wrong because this link says they usually only spit when theyve been mistreated... Bozedown Alpacas, The Premier UK Alpaca Breeder - About Alpacas



DoubleTrouble said:


> One question though Noush? do they poo like sheep! because manuex would be constantly following em around! In goathland last year it were scary! he were like a poo bag after the sheep!


well put it this way i bet you wouldnt have to feed him anymore:arf:lol


----------



## momentofmadness

noushka05 said:


> have to say it does sound to me like he was doing something wrong because this link says they usually only spit when theyve been mistreated... Bozedown Alpacas, The Premier UK Alpaca Breeder - About Alpacas


Well it was in one of those small farm things you go to.. they had other bits of livestock you could fuss.. I have a pick of it Im sure on me FB.. Im gonna have a bath then will find the horror.. (the alpaca not my son) Everyone jumped away from it..:lol:


----------



## momentofmadness

Just thought I would show you some pics of the Drag hunt... few years ago these.. 
found these whilst looking for that other animal.. 

And look how small this pony is.. 










this is me mate Annie









Me mate richard.. and his mrs










A bird for Hawsport.. Not got a clue what it was our Jaime stroked it.. eeek










And the monster!!! :lol: See I caught it smiling!










And my off his head son.. Jaime..










So there ya go...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> There's been so many sweeping statements and generalisation made across this thread! I think one thing that we have to remember or even just believe in is that this is a pet forum - I don't think for one second that anyone on here would enjoy the unnecessary suffering of any animal. However, as it stands there are some that take place/agree with practices that can result in this. I for one could never be part of anything that could/does result in an animal going through horrendous suffering. Of course no one here agrees with battery chickens and other acts of animal cruelty - your preaching to the wrong choir i believe. I'm pretty sure most of the people on here buy free range, if not all the time then when they can. I mean I could just as easily say that because i'm a vegetarian you are all advocating animal cruelty by eating any form of meat . Of course it would be a silly, childish statement to make and only someone with a very tunnel like view of the world could. But this thread is about FOX HUNTING. People are implying like because there are people on here posting about their views on fox hunting they don't give a damn about other forms of cruelty! If others want to start a thread of cheap meat or dog fighting then please do because im positive you will get just as a passionate response as here . & as for the argument 'you just sit behind your computer and rant about it without actually doing anything' - your forgetting that this is a public forum and by people posting on here they are airing their views for the world to see. That imo is doing something - if one person reads this thread and questions their way of thinking. As for puppy farms and byb? Everyone who has bought a puppy from a reputable breed, rescued a dog, fostered dogs or even just forewarned others on here is working against them in my eyes. Not all people who go on drag hunts are bloodthirsty animals whos hounds are out of control. I am sure there are some who literally do just enjoy the day out and socialising with people they may not see any other time. Just like there are some who go 'drag hunting' - using it as a pretence to carry on like they have always done and in essence break the law and give real drag hunters a bad name. Like someone had already mentioned, the only way to ensure these people stop is for antis and drag hunters to work together, for the hounds and the foxes. As for the hunt picking up fallen stock, I have no problem with that, especially in the current economical climate. I won't lie, it does repulse me to think of the stock being fed back to the hounds, but on the other hand it is just the circle of life. Can i ask though, would the people who do this be happy if say you had two dogs, one died and you fed it to the other dog? Serious question. The statements about the cats :lol:. I mean you pretty much just compared fox hunters to cats! I hope they are more civilised, intelligent and less furry than cats! We all know that cats are hunters, its instinct for them to play with their prey no matter how sick it is. However, you'll find that the majority of people will take the prey away from their kitty if they catch them with it . x


I've left this thread well alone because I really can't be bothered with this type of discussion any longer, but please, justify this against the number of dumped, unwanted, and abused pets every single year, year on year out. Whether this thread is about fox hunting or not, the cruelty WE (the royal we) inflict on animals is lost in the debate so many times. I have absolutely no quarrel with you fuzzbugs, and respect your view, have done many times, but to allow a one sided opinion where the truth hurts pet owners, can't happen, or shouldn't happen.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've left this thread well alone because I really can't be bothered with this type of discussion any longer, but please, justify this against the number of dumped, unwanted, and abused pets every single year, year on year out. Whether this thread is about fox hunting or not, the cruelty WE (the royal we) inflict on animals is lost in the debate so many times. I have absolutely no quarrel with you fuzzbugs, and respect your view, have done many times, but to allow a one sided opinion where the truth hurts pet owners, can't happen, or shouldn't happen.


I do completely agree with you. The way animals are treated, abused, dumped makes me unbelievably sad and there really is no justifying any of it. I really do wish people would all buy free range chickens/eggs ect, because in reality they don't cost that much more and it would be nice if people could sacrifice say a packet of ciggies for a living breathing creature. I wish people didn't just abandon their dogs when the going got tough and I wish everyone bred responsibly and didnt just see pound signs when they look at their dog . But I also wish no foxes were caught and ripped to shreds by hounds. The one thing this thread has taught me is that you can't just have a one sided view - it can't just be 'them' and 'us - the antis and the drag hunters have to work together to ensure all hounds were well cared for and no foxes were accidentally caught. But I suppose if it were that easy we wouldn't have puppy farmers ect  x


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> And the monster!!! :lol: See I caught it smiling!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So there ya go...


I'm no expert, but I thought alpacas had wider heads. That looks like a Llama. I could be wrong though.


----------



## momentofmadness

cool-jim said:


> I'm no expert, but I thought alpacas had wider heads. That looks like a Llama. I could be wrong though.


Its head height was just higher than my eleven year old..
Well it was at this place.. why dont ya ring em tomos.. cause frankly.. I can't be bothered.
Cheshire Farm Ice Cream: At the Farm

And cool jim.. I take it you just joined the forum to chat about the hunting then


----------



## Natik

momentofmadness said:


> Its head height was just higher than my eleven year old..
> Well it was at this place.. why dont ya ring em tomos.. cause frankly.. I can't be bothered.
> Cheshire Farm Ice Cream: At the Farm
> 
> And cool jim.. I take it you just joined the forum to chat about the hunting then


looks like its a llama to me too.

googled them and this came under their description
"We also have a special guinea pig and rabbit enclosure, llamas, goats, pot bellied pigs and our ever so cute miniature Sicilian donkeys"

no mention of alpacas.


----------



## momentofmadness

Natik said:


> looks like its a llama to me too.
> 
> googled them and this came under their description
> "We also have a special guinea pig and rabbit enclosure, llamas, goats, pot bellied pigs and our ever so cute miniature Sicilian donkeys"
> 
> no mention of alpacas.


Probably was then.. But it was very small..


----------



## FerretloverUK

skyblue said:


> with a bit of luck i'll be going rabbiting soon:thumbup:


brill. have you been b4?


----------



## cool-jim

momentofmadness said:


> And cool jim.. I take it you just joined the forum to chat about the hunting then


No I joined before this debate to get info for my parents about their aquarium. I was lucky to find the info they needed before I had to post. Hunting was just a subject i felt passionate enough about to post.


----------



## koekemakranka

Very interesting debate. What are PF members' overall feelings about hunting in general, I wonder? IMO there is a place for ethical hunting, especially in Africa. I believe sound conservation management, especially in stressed conservation areas, includes sport hunting and culling. In Africa, if the animal or resource has no (monetary) value attached to it, then it cannot be conserved in the long run. The people living around conservation areas will only cooperate in protecting that resource if there is something in it for them (e.g. benefits from tourism, even trophy hunting tourism). That is the harsh reality. That said, I do not participate in hunting, nor would I want to.

In my experience, it is often those that actually (ethically) hunt thermselves that are the most passionate and "hands-on" in terms of protecting these areas in a sustainable manner. Good ethical hunters also play a major role in protecting wildlife from organised poaching, which is barbaric in the extreme:
STOP RHINO POACHING NOW!

I believe in the necessity of culling practices under certain circumstances, but I don't really see the point of fox hunting. One fox a week surely does not contribute in any meaningful way to an alleged overpopulation of "vermin", surely? I don't see that fox-hunting brings in any tourism investment, nor is it hunting for the pot. It seems an awfully expensive and ineffective type of "vermin control" to me, not to mention the environmental damage to hedges, meadows and plants by a team of horses and hounds ploughing through every week. The only reason I can see is that it is purely for "sport", in which case drag hunting would be more practical and humane.


----------



## JJAK

koekemakranka said:


> I believe in the necessity of culling practices under certain circumstances, but I don't really see the point of fox hunting. One fox a week surely does not contribute in any meaningful way to an alleged overpopulation of "vermin", surely? I don't see that fox-hunting brings in any tourism investment, nor is it hunting for the pot. It seems an awfully expensive and ineffective type of "vermin control" to me, not to mention the environmental damage to hedges, meadows and plants by a team of horses and hounds ploughing through every week. The only reason I can see is that it is purely for "sport", in which case drag hunting would be more practical and humane.


I dont know wether youd class it as tourist....but you can actually hire out hunt horses and just go for the day/week/however often you want. Their called hirelings, apparently some hireling businesses do quite well during the fox/drag hunting season.

The hunt has a team of (i spoze youd call them) 'rebuilders' They rebuilt fences, wire, hedges etc that the hunt has damaged. they walk across fields and push in any torn up turf. They go out in a pickup truck and in the back have all the necessary equipment to fix most things that get damaged (if any)

Also, the hunt moves area each time they hunt. they have their 'country' but dont hunt the same bit of it during a certain time frame Partly to allow the ground time to recover.


----------



## simplysardonic

wow, this thread has grown overnight, what a monster


----------



## momentofmadness

JJAK said:


> I dont know wether youd class it as tourist....but you can actually hire out hunt horses and just go for the day/week/however often you want. Their called hirelings, apparently some hireling businesses do quite well during the fox/drag hunting season.
> 
> The hunt has a team of (i spoze youd call them) 'rebuilders' They rebuilt fences, wire, hedges etc that the hunt has damaged. they walk across fields and push in any torn up turf. They go out in a pickup truck and in the back have all the necessary equipment to fix most things that get damaged (if any)
> 
> Also, the hunt moves area each time they hunt. they have their 'country' but dont hunt the same bit of it during a certain time frame Partly to allow the ground time to recover.


Thats true Jjak in fact on the NECDH they have a couple of blokes ion pickups out on the hunt and they are waiting at each part of the hunt.. they makes sure no one gets hurt by things like barb wire, makes sure everyone passes through safely and considerately.. and then one will leave and the other stays to sort out any damage..... We always new to follow him if you want to follow the hunt.. 

Farmers generally own or rent the land the hunt goes through and if they dont mind a load of horses tear arsing through their fields why should it bother anyone else?
Also they have a meet at a different location each week


----------



## Amethyst

momentofmadness said:


> Farmers generally own or rent the land the hunt goes through and if they dont mind a load of horses tear arsing through their fields why should it bother anyone else?


Few would object to you tear arsing through farmers fields, it's when animals that get chased and torn up we object.


----------



## momentofmadness

Amethyst said:


> Few would object to you tear arsing through farmers fields, it's when animals that get chased and torn up we object.


Some have gone on about the damage caused to the land..


----------



## JANICE199

momentofmadness said:


> Some have gone on about the damage caused to the land..


*I think those mean the land that the hounds shouldn't be on.*


----------

