# Deposits



## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

How do people feel about refunding deposits. I had someone pull out and ask for their deposit back. They were advised that deposits were non refundable if they pulled out and that it had been detailed on their receipt.

6 days later they sent a message to say that they had changed their mind and now wanted the kitten. They were advised that the kitten was no longer available as they had stated they no longer felt it was the kitten for them.

Has anyone else had this and if so what did you do?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

luckylocket said:


> How do people feel about refunding deposits. I had someone pull out and ask for their deposit back. They were advised that deposits were non refundable if they pulled out and that it had been detailed on their receipt.
> 
> 6 days later they sent a message to say that they had changed their mind and now wanted the kitten. They were advised that the kitten was no longer available as they had stated they no longer felt it was the kitten for them.
> 
> Has anyone else had this and if so what did you do?


If it is non refundable and they have no real reason, then its down to your discretion, really if it was quite quick that they told you and you haven't really lost out on advertising time etc

But ID never let them have a kitten after asking for money back... no way, Id rather refund and find a owner that really wanted her


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

The deposit was paid mid Nov and they withdrew end Dec so it wasn't very quick and every time they were due to visit, they cancelled either just before their time or just after.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

We always say the deposit is non refundable as this goes towards the kittens registration, insurance, vaccinations, microchip etc. They sign the contract to agree to this, if they change their mind they don't get a refund.
We did have someone who paid a deposit on one of Mias litters, then pulled out, we didn't return the deposit. 
If paperwork and microchip etc has been done then we would have to pay for it all to be put back into our name.
It depends on the circumstances really, if no paperwork or chipping has been done and you have now got a buyer who is paying you the full price anyway then maybe you could return the deposit out of goodwill.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

If the time frame was short between them leaving a deposit and then changing their minds and I had managed to sell the kitten again with no problems I would be inclined to refund the deposit "as a gesture of goodwill" 
If it was just before collection was due and you had to keep a kitten longer or lower the price I dont think I would. Only you can really decide whether the reasons given warrant a refund, but agree with TB in that I wouldnt sell a kitten to them just because they thought they might loose their deposit.


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

They are stating that as I still have their deposit then it is still technically reserved for them, despite me advising them that I had accepted they wanted to withdraw over 6 days ago and that they knew the deposit was non refundable unless I withdrew the kitten from sale. I'm sure they are just trying to get me to say I won't provide them with a kitten and then it looks like I have withdrawn. Sometimes it just puts you off your hobby! :confused1:


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm sure you have everything in writing, so that covers you 

I'm not a breeder of cats, but if you haven't lost out financially (i.e having to hold on to the kitten for longer than normal), then as mentioned perhaps as a gesture of goodwill you could refund the deposit - especially if the new owners have put down a deposit also?

Even if they don't get a kitten from you, the gesture could be the difference between good press and bad press.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

If you have a copy of their email saying that they no longer wanted the kitten and your paperwork is very clear that deposits are non-refundable I think you are in the right. It sounds as if you have no confidence in them as prospective owners now anyway.
Maybe a compromise - offer them part of the deposit back - just to keep the peace?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They are stating that as I still have their deposit then it is still technically reserved for them, despite me advising them that I had accepted they wanted to withdraw over 6 days ago and that they knew the deposit was non refundable unless I withdrew the kitten from sale


If they have paid a deposit then that kitten was reserved for them. If you don't let them have it then it's you who have withdrawn the kitten from sale. You have effectively forced them to go ahead with your contract terms by not being prepared to refund a deposit and then not honoured those same terms yourself.

To try and explain this we'll use an example which is nothing to do with kittens.
You advertise your house for sale and somebody comes to view and makes an offer. It gets as far as exchanging contracts at which point the buyers pay a deposit. A few days later they say they are pulling out and their solicitor points out it means losing their deposit so they decide to go ahead with the purchase. Letters fly backwards and forwards which all takes a while. Are you allowed to then refuse to sell your house to them and keep their deposit? If you do so it is you who are breaching the contract, not them.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

The deposit might be non- refundable but I would think the breeder is being a bit greedy if the kitten found a new home that quickly ( and for the same price). Why not return the rest; it just seems like a lot of drama over £100 or so


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

There does tend to be a cooling off period of 7 days for someone to change their mind. If they changed their mind within this time then in theory deposit should be returned. If outside of this time limit then it would be up to the discretion of the seller.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There does tend to be a cooling off period of 7 days for someone to change their mind. If they changed their mind within this time then in theory deposit should be returned. If outside of this time limit then it would be up to the discretion of the seller.


You are going to have to expand on this. There are special rules about cooling off periods if a salesman comes to someone's home and/or involves them in a credit agreement but I know of no such rule under simple contract law.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

I think as Havoc has already said the point is the buyer is now saying that if the deposit is non refundable they will pay the full amount and have the kitten - while this may be a ruse to get their deposit back the seller would be in breach of contract if she didnt sell to them AND kept the deposit - no brainer for me in these circumstances the deposit would be in the post tomorrow.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2014)

My father used to breed labradors and if anyone changed their mind and asked for the deposit back he wouldn't refund them and rightly so. .


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My father used to breed labradors and if anyone changed their mind and asked for the deposit back he wouldn't refund them and rightly so


Did he also then refuse to go ahead with the transaction if the buyer, reminded of the contract terms, decided to complete? This whole game of non refundable deposits relies on the buyer being intimidated by the seller. I honestly doubt it would be held up if pushed to court. A seller may be able to deduct reasonable expenses and not refund in full but they would have to be proven. Was a time the costs of re-advertising would have been an acceptable deduction but nowadays breeders don't pay to advertise.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> while this may be a ruse to get their deposit back


Of course it is and they'll win one way or the other. Either the breeder will refund or the buyer will go through with the sale and probably sell the kitten on to recoup their money.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

havoc said:


> You are going to have to expand on this. There are special rules about cooling off periods if a salesman comes to someone's home and/or involves them in a credit agreement but I know of no such rule under simple contract law.


I am not in the legal profession and dont claim to be. I could be wrong. But pretty sure the cooling off period extends to other purchase agreements.

Citizens advise would be good to ask or your solicitor.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But pretty sure the cooling off period extends to other purchase agreements


A common misconception fuelled by shop policies of allowing returns. The seven days you have in mind is also the time you have under DSRs to return something.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2014)

havoc said:


> Did he also then refuse to go ahead with the transaction if the buyer, reminded of the contract terms, decided to complete? This whole game of non refundable deposits relies on the buyer being intimidated by the seller. I honestly doubt it would be held up if pushed to court. A seller may be able to deduct reasonable expenses and not refund in full but they would have to be proven. Was a time the costs of re-advertising would have been an acceptable deduction but nowadays breeders don't pay to advertise.


 That's interesting to hear because I always thought it would stand up in court if it was signed by both parties I can't remember what was said between my father and the buyers as it was a few years ago, but I do remember him saying that he had quite a lot of his time wasted. He also said he was legally within his rights to not to give the deposit back and I always thought that was the case, because he knows the law having worked as a clerk ( paperwork clerk not judicial clerk) for the high courts of Strouds small claims court . But that was a few years ago too, dad was maybe thinking of breeding again so I will have to inform him of what you've said .


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Your dad will then know very well that there are no certainties in court. One judge on one day will rule one way and another the other. Each case would be considered individually and as he will know only the higher courts set precedent


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

They pulled out of the sale after 6 weeks stating they felt the kitten was not for them. I sent them emails to say I accepted this but that the deposit was non refundable if they pulled out. 6 days later they stated they wanted to carry on. The kitten has viewings but not at the price that they were having the kitten for - they wanted active but it is going pet now. If they stated the kitten was no longer for them, then how come 6 days later it suddenly is the one for them. I know it is just a ruse to get their deposit back. I have offered to refund half as a gesture of goodwill.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I understand that they've messed you about but IF they are prepared to go through with the sale and it's you who won't complete the transaction then you shouldn't keep their deposit. They could push it to court or complain to the GCCF, either way it will only cause you grief.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I would rather give them their full deposit back rather than let my kitten go to someone who doesn't absolutely love my kitten. It's a very irritating situation I am sure. Good luck


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Personally - I would rather NOT let my kitten go on the active to someone who has changed their minds - they had a reason as to why and that's fine. I don't think you can count the extra money for active as part of the equation as that's just a little greedy. As long as you get pet price for the kitten all is well and good. And as long as full pet price is paid, keeping the deposit is again a bit greedy. 

(I am assuming here you don't have any out of pocket expenses - i.e. extra time kept and the kitten is now older and you've had to feed it longer etc)

SO personally once you have sold the kitten and received the full pet price in your hand that is when I would give the deposit back.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> (I am assuming here you don't have any out of pocket expenses - i.e. extra time kept and the kitten is now older and you've had to feed it longer etc)


And if you have that this was specifically accounted for in the contract they signed.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> *every time they were due to visit*, they cancelled either just before their time or just after


I knew there was something niggling me. Did they visit to choose the kitten?


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

They failed to turn up on three occasions each time stating that they or their children were poorly. I gave them the benefit of the doubt as they had come recommended from another breeder, even though I was a little suspicious. The last time they were due to visit, they cancelled 10 minutes after their supposed arrival time. Then they sent a message to say that they were more than happy to reserve and pay online. That was over 6 weeks ago now. I turned down many other offers of homes in order that I could help them out. I sent regular photos and still they did not request to view despite stating they would view when everyone was better. 

It is extremely frustrating as generally I would pay a deposit back in genuine circumstances but I have been messed about so much by them, even to the point of staying in for them visiting, changing shifts at work in order to accommodate them, registering the kitten and purchasing the big bag of kitten food that I give them to take with them. (I will have to feed this to my adults as I don't have any more kittens at present). They then pulled out and accepted that the kitten was no longer available to them. She is a superb girl with many (and I mean) many champions in her 5 generation pedigree (in fact only 5 are not champions of some description). I even dropped the price for them compared to what I would usually charge for such a good girl. 

I think we have both learnt lessons from this. I will NOT accept any deposits if people fail to view and I will always reinforce that if they cancel, their deposit will not be refundable. I will refund deposits on anyone who then starts to waste my time as I will no longer agree to continue with the purchase. These kittens are very well care for and do not deserve to be messed about, their welfare is paramount and so is a good home and to be truthful if someone constantly wastes my time, how can I be sure they are going to care for the kitten the way I would like it to be cared for and the way it has been used to.

I have offered to refund half of her deposit as a goodwill gesture and am awaiting their bank details in order that I can refund them.


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

There was only the one so it wasn't like she needed to choose a specific one. She had many pictures sent though.


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

havoc said:


> I knew there was something niggling me. Did they visit to choose the kitten?


She failed to turn up for three viewings on each occasion stating one of her children was ill, then sent a message to say that she was more than happy to reserve and send a deposit online.

A valuable lesson has been learnt by both I think. I will NEVER again allow deposits to be paid if the kitten has not first been viewed AND if someone starts to mess me about in any way, I will withdraw the kitten from sale to them and refund their deposit in full.

Hopefully she has learnt to visit, read her paperwork correctly and not to mess breeders around.

She was recommended by another breeder and therefore I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I even reduced the price due to the recommendation. My time has been wasted (having waited in for her to visit and then message after her expected arrival time stating she would not be able to make it), I have changed shifts at work to accommodate, I've registered the kitten and I've purchased a large bag of kitten food at her request, to take with her when she collected the kitten.

Never mind. I'm waiting for her to send her details in order that I can send a partial refund.

In all my years of doing this, I've never been messed about so much. :frown:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I really do understand your frustration. I hope your partial refund is enough to see the back of them. Just be aware they can make trouble for you and I get the feeling they know how to play games.


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks for your help Havoc (and everyone else).


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Just a thought - if people cannot make it to see their future breeding queen what kind of a breeder would they make? Is it even possible?


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## luckylocket (Jan 4, 2014)

Kotanushka said:


> Just a thought - if people cannot make it to see their future breeding queen what kind of a breeder would they make? Is it even possible?


I won't be making that mistake again - that's for sure. They blamed family illness. Never mind - they accepted half their deposit back and have stated that in future they will definitely visit to see the kitten before agreeing to purchase.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

At least it sounds as if it has ended well thank goodness.


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## Emma1978 (Jan 6, 2014)

I would say if you stated if was none refundable then that is that. A deposit is your security do not let it go.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I won't be making that mistake again - that's for sure.


It takes something like this sometimes to harden your resolve.



> I would say if you stated if was none refundable then that is that. A deposit is your security do not let it go.


That's very simplistic and although a breeder may get away with it, it could cause all sorts of problems. The obvious one of someone trying to get their deposit refunded through the courts is probably the easiest for a breeder to deal with. In this case the 'buyer' had sent a part payment (make no mistake that's what a deposit is) without seeing the goods. They may well therefore feel they have rights under DSRs. If they do report the breeder then Trading Standards could decide the breeder is 'trading' because they accept distance payments for unexamined goods. Great fun then when the local council insist the breeder applies for planning permission to run their 'business'.

There is no 'one size fits all' to decide if a breeder is a hobbyist or a business. Each individual case is decided on its own merits - and by the breeder's own council. Some are more determined than others. Most can be fought off but it does make sense not to engage in the things that would attract interest and investigation.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kotanushka said:


> Just a thought - if people cannot make it to see their future breeding queen what kind of a breeder would they make? Is it even possible?


I would never normally take a deposit without the puchaser(s) visiting. I can vet them, they can vet me. Guess there might be some highly exceptional circumstance that will turn up, but I'm struggling to think what it might be.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Guess there might be some highly exceptional circumstance that will turn up, but I'm struggling to think what it might be.


I've never taken a deposit or agreed to sell a kitten until I've met a buyer in person either. I can however sympathise deeply with a breeder trying to accommodate a buyer who claims to have problems and keeps postponing visits with plausible excuses. I've been messed about in the past and much as I swear with every litter that I will impose hard rules I still can't help but try to be reasonable. With some, the more you try to accommodate them the more they mess you about and only experience will (sometimes) tell you that a potential buyer is going to be more trouble than they're worth.


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