# Maine coon kitten cost



## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

Hello there,

Can anyone give me an idea of price for a pedigree maine coon kitten? I have been quoted £700 for a red kitten which I am very interested in. But I am not sure if the quoted price is right?


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

I would have thought over £1,000 marker. Is your breeder registered in UK?


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## Emmasian (Aug 22, 2015)

Rafa is GCCF registered and has a big pedigree and he was £550 in 2015. Think it depends where u get them from - London is higher. Non active I think I have seen £550-700.


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

Thank you every one for your replies.

The breeder I am talking to is based in Cardiff and she got some lovely maine coon. I have not asked about registration as I am not bothered about that. Main thing for me is that the parents are HCM and PKD clear and I am buying from a responsible breeder..

@Emmasian, How is Rafa doing? Any tips for new Maine coon slave?


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I paid 450 and 550 for GCCF reg 4 and 3 years ago. Both are show quality.

My breeder was quite far north and I do think you would pay more the further south you are.

I have paid (mistakenly through not doing my research properly) 700 and 1000 for kittens that turned out to be very poor quality, doubtful pedigree and non tested (though I was told otherwise)

Please read thread on buying a pedigree if you can.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/finding-a-pedigree-cat.447723/


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

Thank you. I think I have been a bit silly not asking for registration details. Now I am having doubts. I have asked the breeder so lets see what they come back with and I will also go through above link. I also have to make 200 miles journey one way to pick up the kitten . So if its not a registered kitten it does not really sound worth the effort and price.


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## Emmasian (Aug 22, 2015)

rommy said:


> Thank you every one for your replies.
> 
> The breeder I am talking to is based in Cardiff and she got some lovely maine coon. I have not asked about registration as I am not bothered about that. Main thing for me is that the parents are HCM and PKD clear and I am buying from a responsible breeder..
> 
> @Emmasian, How is Rafa doing? Any tips for new Maine coon slave?


Aw he's wonderful thanks (and so are my other two but they came from a BYB before I knew any better). I would say they must be registered with GCCF or TICA to be from a reputable breeder, but even then it's no guarantee. The sticky thread about pedigree cat purchase is brilliant. This is Raffsi, he is a red silver too...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I would normally never buy a kitten unseen. I'd want to see where it grew up before parting with my cash.


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

He is adorable.

Looking at all the comments and reading the Pedigree thread it really does not make sense to pay £700 if the kitten is not registered. So with heavy heart I will have to cancel my reservation


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

I paid £450 for Yogi he will be 5 in April. Please do your homework. I made this mistake with my first Ragdoll Bailey. It was an opps litter but Mum and dad were there. But because I had always bought from the newspaper before and never had a problem with my GSDs and jack russells I thought I would be ok to go down this route. I lost Bailey at a year old to FIP. He was sick all through that year. Go to the GCCF website and the TICA website for a list of breeders. If I am paying that sort of money I want papers. If you go to a back to a backyard breeder you could be in for heartache. Even though I did my homework with Yogi I had problems from the start. He is on medication for life. This could happen in human births though what is wrong with Yogi. But this is a very rare case. There are a lot of good breeders out there. Just take your time. 

Viv xx


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

If you want an adult cat. You can look on Maine Coon Rescue sites. You would be surprised how many are given up because their owners cannot cope with their coats.

Viv xx


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## Pardis (Feb 7, 2018)

rommy said:


> He is adorable.
> 
> Looking at all the comments and reading the Pedigree thread it really does not make sense to pay £700 if the kitten is not registered. So with heavy heart I will have to cancel my reservation


I know it's tough but you are saving yourself a lot of heartache down the line! You'll get your dream cat in the end, it'll just take a bit more time and research into breeders/rescues


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

That’s a brave but right decision your making, I can imagine your sad having us lot high light possible health issues, but who wants an ill kitten!
I rescued my middle cat granted a beautiful moggy but she has cost and arm and leg and she’s only 6yrs old, worth every penny but i is always a constant reminder what BYB do.

I wish you well, stay with us on your journey finding your new fur baby. X


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I’m sure you will find the right one armed with knowledge from here. 

I would def travel to view the kitten first even if it’s a 4 hour (one way) journey as in the case of Grace and Little H lol!! You can see where the kittens are being bought up, meet parents and get a feel for the slaves looking after them. You can also ask to see paperwork (though perhaps this can be emailed prior to the first journey). A good breeder would have no hesitation in letting you meet the cats before purchase.


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

I am glad I found this forum. You guys are so great.

I have another big question mark with regards to adopting a Maine coon. At the moment I am living on my own and will be out Mon - Fri for 10 -11 hours. How well do Maine coon deal with being alone? I am getting mixed answers. To me the most important thing is well being of the new cat.


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

That’s a long time for a cat to be alone but you have options.

Why not go to a rescue where they have siblings who love each other and will have company all day whilst you are out?

I think mainecoons love talking and human interaction HB can answer this one! Is so why not consider a quieter breed?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I am a soon-to-be Maine Coon breeder, after being mentored for 6 years and showing for two. I'm just waiting for the right girl now. 

If you want to pm me I'd be happy to help direct you to a registered, ethical breeder. 

Maine Coons are a very social breed and do like company, and they're addictive. One is never enough! I do know some MCs however that are very happy as singletons, I would discuss this with your breeder to match you to a kitten that will cope with being alone for those hours.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Knowing you are out for so long in the week I really think a single kitten is out of the question. MCs are very very sociable and need company whether human or cat. Perhaps you could go for an ex breeding queen or ex stud maybe? Or an MC kitten and a rescue kitten at the same time? If you do go for a kitten I really feel a pair would be kinder.

Either way ideally it would be an idea to take a couple of weeks off work when you first get them?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

rommy said:


> I am glad I found this forum. You guys are so great.
> 
> I have another big question mark with regards to adopting a Maine coon. At the moment I am living on my own and will be out Mon - Fri for 10 -11 hours. How well do Maine coon deal with being alone? I am getting mixed answers. To me the most important thing is well being of the new cat.


For me being out that amount of time isn't good for any single kitten. I'd be hesitant selling two, but a pair will cope much better than one.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Unfortunately reluctance to sell singletons is why many go from breeders to bybs. We hear all the time that cats are solitary animals yet very few are homed as singletons. The cat community can't have it both ways. Cats and kittens are wonderfully adaptable, and Maine Coons can very easily be singletons, provided they are given plenty of stimulation whilst owners aren't present and then lots of fuss when owners come home. They're a very resilient breed.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

It sounds like since these kittens are so expensive to buy, that there would be an opportunity for someone who could offer them more cheaply.
The way it's supposed to work in a market is like this:

Customer: I want to buy a [insert breed here] kitten!
Supplier 1: I will sell you one for £1000.
Supplier 2: I will sell you one for £800.
Supplier 3: I will sell you one for £600.
Supplier 4: I will sell you one for £250. I'm cuttin' me own throat, guv'nor!
Supplier 5: Don't listen to him - his kittens all have congenital defects. Mine are perfect and can be purrrrrchased for £350.
Customer: I will buy from from Supplier 5.
Supplier 3: You can have mine for £330.
Customer: I will now buy from Supplier 3.

What have I missed?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Breeders already make a huge loss selling at £550-700. Any cheaper than that, it's unlikely that they aren't registered, aren't pedigree, aren't gene tested for HCM/SMA/PK Def, aren't snap tested for FIV and FeLV and aren't vaccinated or indeed neutered. All of which will cost the owner even more in vet bills and heartache.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

mewtoo said:


> It sounds like since these kittens are so expensive to buy, that there would be an opportunity for someone who could offer them more cheaply.
> The way it's supposed to work in a market is like this:
> 
> Customer: I want to buy a [insert breed here] kitten!
> ...


Surely this post is a joke? If not, I think you have assumed all the kittens are the same.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Breeders already make a huge loss selling at £550-700. Any cheaper than that, it's unlikely that they aren't registered, aren't pedigree, aren't gene tested for HCM/SMA/PK Def, aren't snap tested for FIV and FeLV and aren't vaccinated or indeed neutered. All of which will cost the owner even more in vet bills and heartache.


Wow, I had no idea the costs were so high.

Does a situation ever arise in which people do "casual breeding" to cover the cost of keeping their own cat(s) and pay for a holiday here and there, and can therefore sell them more cheaply?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

mewtoo said:


> Wow, I had no idea the costs were so high.
> 
> Does a situation ever arise in which people do "casual breeding" to cover the cost of keeping their own cat(s) and pay for a holiday here and there, and can therefore sell them more cheaply?


Ha, nice try. Ethical breeders who make no profit are hobby breeders. Breeders who make a profit enough for a holiday are backyard breeders. But I'm sure you know that, and just have nothing better to do than to try and wind folk up :Troll


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Surely this post is a joke? If not, I think you have assumed all the kittens are the same.


No, I want to learn why the prices are so high.
I always get my fluffies from rescue charities so I just pay the fee and give them a couple of bags of treats for the un-rehomed fluffies left behind to chomp on. Therefore I've never had the experience of buying one as a kitten.
I am wondering whether or not is follows a market-based system.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Ha, nice try. Ethical breeders who make no profit are hobby breeders. Breeders who make a profit enough for a holiday are backyard breeders. But I'm sure you know that, and just have nothing better to do than to try and wind folk up :Troll


Nope, I have no idea about breeding fluffies. I've never done it as all mine have come pre-neutered from charities.

Is there any money in breeding then?
I know someone who keeps a breeding pair of little yappy dogs (I forget the breed), but they sell one litter a year for £1500 per puppy, and they go on a couple of holidays with the proceeds.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Unfortunately reluctance to sell singletons is why many go from breeders to bybs. We hear all the time that cats are solitary animals yet very few are homed as singletons. The cat community can't have it both ways. Cats and kittens are wonderfully adaptable, and Maine Coons can very easily be singletons, provided they are given plenty of stimulation whilst owners aren't present and then lots of fuss when owners come home. They're a very resilient breed.


Indeed some cats are far happier as single cats, but kittens of all breeds and none get very bored if left and can get up to all sorts of mayhem.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> Nope, I have no idea about breeding fluffies. I've never done it as all mine have come pre-neutered from charities.
> 
> Is there any money in breeding then?
> I know someone who keeps a breeding pair of little yappy dogs (I forget the breed), but they sell one litter a year for £1500 per puppy, and they go on a couple of holidays with the proceeds.


There is no money in correct breeding - kitten goes at 13 or more weeks, vaccinated, wormed, and possibly chipped & neutered. Most breeds of pedigree puppies are usually homed at 8 weeks not 13 so the breeder doesn't have the massive expenses of the extra 5+ weeks a kitten is with it's breeder. That's what BYBs do as well, for not much less than a registered pedigree would cost.

I've done my expenses up to earlier this year, and found that without vet costs I made about £50 / kitten, which means each kitten actually cost me about £100.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> It sounds like since these kittens are so expensive to buy, that there would be an opportunity for someone who could offer them more cheaply.
> The way it's supposed to work in a market is like this:
> 
> Customer: I want to buy a [insert breed here] kitten!
> ...


That kittens are living beings, and asking people to forever sell cheaper undermines welfare standards.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

mewtoo said:


> No, I want to learn why the prices are so high.


Because people are silly enough to pay it.

Stick to a local rescue and give a nice warm home to a kitty that needs it. If you want an indoor only cat, most rescues should be able to help. Maybe they won't have the right cat right now, but just get your name down and in time the right moggie for you will come along.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> There is no money in correct breeding - kitten goes at 13 or more weeks, vaccinated, wormed, and possibly chipped & neutered. Most breeds of pedigree puppies are usually homed at 8 weeks not 13 so the breeder doesn't have the massive expenses of the extra 5+ weeks a kitten is with it's breeder. That's what BYBs do as well, for not much less than a registered pedigree would cost.
> 
> I've done my expenses up to earlier this year, and found that without vet costs I made about £50 / kitten, which means each kitten actually cost me about £100.


I had to Google what BYB means 

So basically, people need to be paying more for their kittens and not less. How come people are breeding kittens though if it is costing them money to do it properly? I suppose the obvious answer is that they love kittens, haha. Or maybe for a hobby?

How come the fluffies are being neutered before being homed? Is that what the customer wants, or is it to stop people from "competing" with the breeder they have just bought the kitten from?


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> That kittens are living beings, and asking people to forever sell cheaper undermines welfare standards.


What I was really getting at was that market forces reduce prices through efficiencies rather than necessarily by reducing standards.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> I had to Google what BYB means
> 
> So basically, people need to be paying more for their kittens and not less. How come people are breeding kittens though if it is costing them money to do it properly? I suppose the obvious answer is that they love kittens, haha. Or maybe for a hobby?
> 
> How come the fluffies are being neutered before being homed? Is that what the customer wants, or is it to stop people from "competing" with the breeder they have just bought the kitten from?


There are two fairly distinct sets of people breeding kittens. People whose hobby is showing and who hope to breed a show stopper, whose kittens are registered etc. and leave at 13 or more weeks, and BYBs who mostly don't care about their kittens and rehome at 8 weeks or less.

I neuter my kittens before they leave to be absolutely sure they aren't going to fall into the hands of a BYB and be treated as a breeding machine. I would be delighted if there were some more decent breeders near me as I've ended up having to go over 200 miles to find a suitable stud.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

GPTC said:


> Because people are silly enough to pay it.
> 
> Stick to a local rescue and give a nice warm home to a kitty that needs it. If you want an indoor only cat, most rescues should be able to help. Maybe they won't have the right cat right now, but just get your name down and in time the right moggie for you will come along.


Yeah, I've always done the rehoming thing. I like to give them a second chance.
I was just thinking about it though, because whenever I see Huckybuck's beauties, I always think to myself, "I WANT ONE". Haha.
But I'll almost certainly stick to the rehoming instead.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> It sounds like since these kittens are so expensive to buy, that there would be an opportunity for someone who could offer them more cheaply.
> The way it's supposed to work in a market is like this:
> 
> Customer: I want to buy a [insert breed here] kitten!
> ...


PS does it work like that in Tescos? You won't get a garage to come down 70% either.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> There are two fairly distinct sets of people breeding kittens. People whose hobby is showing and who hope to breed a show stopper, whose kittens are registered etc. and leave at 13 or more weeks, and BYBs who mostly don't care about their kittens and rehome at 8 weeks or less.
> 
> I neuter my kittens before they leave to be absolutely sure they aren't going to fall into the hands of a BYB and be treated as a breeding machine. I would be delighted if there were some more decent breeders near me as I've ended up having to go over 200 miles to find a suitable stud.


Interesting.
Something which has been happening not far from where I live is that people have been stealing pedigree dogs from gardens, to sell on 
I have no idea if this is happening with cats, but I would imagine it does.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> Interesting.
> Something which has been happening not far from where I live is that people have been stealing pedigree dogs from gardens, to sell on
> I have no idea if this is happening with cats, but I would imagine it does.


That's one very good reason for not letting them wander.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> PS does it work like that in Tescos?


Well, it's how the German supermarkets have taken on the British supermarkets and beaten them.
Tescos is now planning to open a budget chain specifically to try and recapture market share from the German discounters.


OrientalSlave said:


> You won't get a garage to come down 70% either.


You would if the garage figured out a way to cut its costs to the extent that it could cut its prices by 70% and still make an acceptable level of profit.

I am aware that cats are not garages or supermarkets though


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

mewtoo said:


> No, I want to learn why the prices are so high.
> I always get my fluffies from rescue charities so I just pay the fee and give them a couple of bags of treats for the un-rehomed fluffies left behind to chomp on. Therefore I've never had the experience of buying one as a kitten.
> I am wondering whether or not is follows a market-based system.


For Maine Coons at least, this is a breakdown of the average cost of breeding:

Gene tests: £50
FIV/FeLV snap tests: £60+ (that's the cheapest I've found or heard of)
Mating fees: £300 (on average)
Food for mum throughout pregnancy: £200
Food for mum & litter of 4 kittens until 13 weeks: £600 (very roughly)
Total food costs: £800
Neutering per kitten: £50 
Neutering total: £200
Vaccinations per kitten: £45
Vaccinations total: £130
Flea and worming treatment for kittens: £50 all in
Vet check ups x2: £100 all in
Registration total: £41

Total cost to raise kittens: £1,631
Cost to raise individual kitten: £507

Those are being *very *generous, and none of those cats take into account emergency vet visits, emergency c-sections (average cost £1500), treatment for kitten issues like sticky eyes, hernias, broad spectrum antibiotics. It also doesn't take into account the cost of equipment a breeder needs: birthing bits, a safe pen, blankets, heating pads, cooling pads, toys, litter, litter trays, hand-feeding stuff.

It also doesn't take into account the cost of the parents (anything from £800 to £1500 per parent), showing, website maintenance, or the 24/7 hours of the breeder's time in socialising, hand raising kittens and feeding every 2 hours.

There is no profit in good breeding, breeders do it to produce healthy socialised kittens that further their breed. They do it as a hobby because they love it, not to turn a profit.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> That's one very good reason for not letting them wander.


I agree.
Mine's an indoor cat for his own good. If he was stolen (he would be), I'd have kittens.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> For Maine Coons at least, this is a breakdown of the average cost of breeding:
> 
> Gene tests: £50
> FIV/FeLV snap tests: £60+ (that's the cheapest I've found or heard of)
> ...


Verrrrrrry interesting, so thanks for the info. Exactly what I was looking for.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@rommy
I agree it would not be very good to keep a kitten or cat, alone that many hours weekdays.
I would think it was fine if the cat had access to outdoors, or there was another cat. 
Kittens seem to adjust pretty easily to other kittens. They can be a handful though, so an option would be to get a young say one to two year old and then a kitten.
I think a rescue is a good idea if you want two or to get one from a breeder and then a friend from a rescue.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

I think we might have rather derailed this particular thread 

I don't think supply and demand really applies to kittens, just as it wouldn't apply to Ferrari's or Rolex watches - the market forces that you're referring to only tend to apply to fast moving consumer goods - high end quality items for which you pay for the quality, tend to be relatively resistant to market fluctuations.

However, you will notice that some of the rarest breeds of cat do tend to command higher values, and that is firstly because their rarity does increase value and also because the breeder will probably need to travel further for studs etc.

I am sure you would also find that if there was a sudden glut of a specific breed of kitten on the market and breeders could not sell, prices would drop. But that will never happen as breeders are reluctant to sell cats for the open register - for a lot this will be down to welfare considerations - but I do always wonder if for some this is purely a way to protect their markets and ensure they can cover costs.

But maybe i'm just cynical 

looking forward to meeting the OPs new kitten when they find a breeder they feel comfortable with


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

mewtoo said:


> What I was really getting at was that market forces reduce prices through efficiencies rather than necessarily by reducing standards.


There are cheaper watches than Rolex, there are cheaper cars than Ferrari yet people still happily buy those things .....
Still, I'd be interested to know what efficiencies you think can be done which don't compromise on animal welfare or the health & quality of the animals we are trying to breed?

EDIT: LOL snap! @Erenya


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

C;early we have very similar ideas on luxury brands @Tigermoon :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## bluecordelia (Jan 5, 2014)

Blue was £450 and will be 4 this year. She is registered and full pedigree but not show quality (dont tell her!) She isn't as square around the jaw I think.

Healthy happy kittens are the main factor. I did a bit of research ie HCM , hips. She needs a play mate as she was from a big litter. I have a rescue cat also and although I am out all day the house is always occupied


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## bluecordelia (Jan 5, 2014)

I take my hat off to those who do it for the love of the breed and interview prospective owners .


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> It sounds like since these kittens are so expensive to buy, that there would be an opportunity for someone who could offer them more cheaply.
> The way it's supposed to work in a market is like this:
> 
> Customer: I want to buy a [insert breed here] kitten!
> ...


Does this apply to cat scratchers? If I offer £30 for an £80 scratcher will I get it?


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Henry who is half brother to the beautiful blue above was £375 , 6 years ago. He is registered with the GCCF under an administrative prefix. In the cat world a cat breeder has to be a member of a cat club a year before the head honcho will sign the application for their cattery to have a prefix. Well that is what I have been led to believe. There are some good registered breeders are some ok registered breeders. Make sure you do your research. If they say there cats are pkd neg and hcm neg. Ask to see written proof.

Good Luck in finding your kitten.

Which area do you live in?


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

bluecordelia said:


> Blue was £450 and will be 4 this year. She is registered and full pedigree but not show quality (dont tell her!) She isn't as square around the jaw I think.
> 
> Healthy happy kittens are the main factor. I did a bit of research ie HCM , hips. She needs a play mate as she was from a big litter. I have a rescue cat also and although I am out all day the house is always occupied
> 
> View attachment 345014


Henry and Blues grandfather was an import therefore they have a different head shape. If you look up Alara Maine Coons on Facebook if you have it. They are totally different again and one of hers is doing quite well at shows


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

PetloverJo said:


> pkd neg


It's PK Def in Maine Coons - pyruvate kidney dedficiency. PKD is polycystic kidney disease, the two are commonly mixed up as they're similar when written down, although different diseases of course. PKD isn't known to be in Maine Coons, but PK Def is, as is spinal muscular atrophy (SMA) so breeders should really also test for those two.

Also, while I'm on my MC health tangent (sorry), hip dysplasia has been noted in some catteries in the US, however they are generally using Eastern European imports, many of whom are bred for extreme size. Thankfully in the UK we have very few known instances of hip issues outside of the usual associations with age.

At a very minimum an MC cattery should test negative for HCM, where each parent is gene tested n/n. There's some debate over whether annual ECGs are useful or not, but at the very least a gene test should be done. Personally I would look for PK Def and SMA negative test results too, as there are a number of carriers in the UK gene pool.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Rufus15 said:


> It's PK Def in Maine Coons - pyruvate kidney dedficiency. PKD is polycystic kidney disease, the two are commonly mixed up as they're similar when written down, although different diseases of course. PKD isn't known to be in Maine Coons, but PK Def is, as is spinal muscular atrophy (SMA) so breeders should really also test for those two.
> 
> Also, while I'm on my MC health tangent (sorry), hip dysplasia has been noted in some catteries in the US, however they are generally using Eastern European imports, many of whom are bred for extreme size. Thankfully in the UK we have very few known instances of hip issues outside of the usual associations with age.
> 
> At a very minimum an MC cattery should test negative for HCM, where each parent is gene tested n/n. There's some debate over whether annual ECGs are useful or not, but at the very least a gene test should be done. Personally I would look for PK Def and SMA negative test results too, as there are a number of carriers in the UK gene pool.


Thanks for the info. Yes sorry I do get the Pk's mixed up


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

PetloverJo said:


> Thanks for the info. Yes sorry I do get the Pk's mixed up


So easily done, they look so similar when initialised


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> There's some debate over whether annual ECGs are useful or not


ECGs no, Echocardiograms yes, every one to two years in addition to the one off gene test (if its available for the breed).


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> For Maine Coons at least, this is a breakdown of the average cost of breeding:
> 
> Gene tests: £50
> FIV/FeLV snap tests: £60+ (that's the cheapest I've found or heard of)
> ...


And that is a minimum cost - I can't see microchips on that list, and two of mine came with chips already installed  Also Aelfred was far too adventurous as a kitten and had already had two of those emergency vets visits - one to make sure that his leg was ok after he fell of the stairs (so factor in x-rays) and one to check his eye out after it was scratched by a sibling. Bugsy came from the same breeder but was a little younger so she footed an extra 10 days food so that they could come home together.

Heimdall's breeder also fed us - proper cooked lunches - because we came so far to see her, and she was just straight up friendly. Breeders we talked to were unfailingly courteous (although some were challenging and all were primarily concerned with whether we were suitable for their kittens). Added to which if something awful happens tomorrow to us, they will help our executors find them good homes (and may take them back but that's not what we asked), and have answered any subsequent questions I have had over the years. I am really annoyed on their behalf that so many people think they are the animal equivalent of Poundland!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> ECGs no, Echocardiograms yes, every one to two years in addition to the one off gene test (if its available for the breed).


I always get confused between the differences between ECGs and echocardiograms. I usually call them heart scans. As I said though, in the MC community there's division between whether the scan is needed when there's a gene test available. Research by breeders over the last 20 years suggests that a gene test is sufficient, as homozygous for the disease develop it young and die young, heterozygous develop it at around 8 and some die, and homozygous n/n seem to be clear.

Unfortunately far too many breeders are breeding from carriers, allowing the gene to remain in the gene pool. Ironically these breeders also heart scan and retire breeding cats at 4 or 5.

My long-winded point is that not having a heart scan is not indicative of a bad breeder, and likewise the other way too.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> As I said though, in the MC community there's division between whether the scan is needed when there's a gene test available. Research by breeders over the last 20 years suggests that a gene test is sufficient, as homozygous for the disease develop it young and die young, heterozygous develop it at around 8 and some die, and homozygous n/n seem to be clear.
> 
> Unfortunately far too many breeders are breeding from carriers, allowing the gene to remain in the gene pool.


The test only finds one of the genes responsible for HCM in Maine Coons. Cats are still developing and dying of the disease due to having other causative genes, of which sadly there are probably dozens. 
One must breed from carriers in order not to completely destroy the genepool. However the aim should always be to breed the gene out while doing so.
'Breeders research' .... hmmm, some breeders are ingenious when it comes to reasons why they don't scan but the root of it is always money because scanning costs a lot as it must be done by a cardiac specialist. Scanning at least lets you know if your breeding cats are showing cardiac changes or not. Given the choice, I'd always choose a scanning breeder over a non scanning one in a breed known for HCM.


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

PetloverJo said:


> View attachment 345023
> 
> Henry who is half brother to the beautiful blue above was £375 , 6 years ago. He is registered with the GCCF under an administrative prefix. In the cat world a cat breeder has to be a member of a cat club a year before the head honcho will sign the application for their cattery to have a prefix. Well that is what I have been led to believe. There are some good registered breeders are some ok registered breeders. Make sure you do your research. If they say there cats are pkd neg and hcm neg. Ask to see written proof.
> 
> ...


I live in Dagenham area.


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Unfortunately reluctance to sell singletons is why many go from breeders to bybs. We hear all the time that cats are solitary animals yet very few are homed as singletons. The cat community can't have it both ways. Cats and kittens are wonderfully adaptable, and Maine Coons can very easily be singletons, provided they are given plenty of stimulation whilst owners aren't present and then lots of fuss when owners come home. They're a very resilient breed.


That is why I get very confused with different views. I do not want to put my cat in any sort of stress due to my personal life style so I am trying to get as much information possible. The general point of view I am getting from breeders is that MC does not cope well with being alone all day and need constant attention.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

rommy said:


> That is why I get very confused with different views. I do not want to put my cat in any sort of stress due to my personal life style so I am trying to get as much information possible. The general point of view I am getting from breeders is that MC does not cope well with being alone all day and need constant attention.


There are different views partly because cats are individuals, and there is more variation between individuals of a breed than one breed and another. My view is that NO kitten - pedigree or moggie - should be left along for 10-11 hours a day. Also no kitten needs constant attention, but again they vary so much.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> The test only finds one of the genes responsible for HCM in Maine Coons. Cats are still developing and dying of the disease due to having other causative genes, of which sadly there are probably dozens.
> One must breed from carriers in order not to completely destroy the genepool. However the aim should always be to breed the gene out while doing so.
> 'Breeders research' .... hmmm, some breeders are ingenious when it comes to reasons why they don't scan but the root of it is always money because scanning costs a lot as it must be done by a cardiac specialist. Scanning at least lets you know if your breeding cats are showing cardiac changes or not. Given the choice, I'd always choose a scanning breeder over a non scanning one in a breed known for HCM.


The Maine Coon gene pool is huge, there is no need to breed from HCM carriers now, particularly as some breeders the world over are still working with foundation lines to continue to improve the gene pool. The breeders involved in this view of scan vs gene test would be the same breeders that have been breeding for the last 20 years and sit on the committees of both breed clubs, their collective experience is vast. None of them are particularly bothered about cost, they are only interested in the welfare of the breed. Given the choice, I would rather go with breeders who have that vast experience than breeders who scan and do no other testing or checks. There are many of the latter out there and not many of the former.



rommy said:


> That is why I get very confused with different views. I do not want to put my cat in any sort of stress due to my personal life style so I am trying to get as much information possible. The general point of view I am getting from breeders is that MC does not cope well with being alone all day and need constant attention.


It really is up to the breeder, as every cat is so individual. Personally, if you had approached me when I'm breeding, I wouldn't have an issue with it but would stress how important it is to make sure that lots of attention and play are given before and after you are out. Maine Coons are very attached to their people and do love interaction, but they are also a very resilient and adaptable breed. I would much rather sell to a family who work and can afford everything a kitten entails, and be out for long days, than sell to a family who are at home all day, who have very little money and may not be able to afford things in an emergency.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> . I would much rather sell to a family who work and can afford everything a kitten entails, and be out for long days, than sell to a family who are at home all day, who have very little money and may not be able to afford things in an emergency.


Good point, but OP has made no mention of family and I think there is a big difference between a family household and one where there is just a single person ( speaking as the latter)


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> The breeders involved in this view of scan vs gene test would be the same breeders that have been breeding for the last 20 years and sit on the committees of both breed clubs, their collective experience is vast.


:Hilarious Having bred and sat on breed committees for many years myself, I have seen the talk/activity around an unpleasant subject at work and the fact remains that some breeders are very good at the head-in-the-sand job, especially if they fear their own cats might be implicated regardless that blame cannot be apportioned to them. You can have all the experience in the world, it means nothing if you ignore the facts. :Bag


Rufus15 said:


> Given the choice, I would rather go with breeders who have that vast experience than breeders who scan and do no other testing or checks.


So you'd rather go to a breeder who only does the bare minimum, simply because they've been around for a while?


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## Chellacat (Apr 28, 2017)

rommy said:


> That is why I get very confused with different views. I do not want to put my cat in any sort of stress due to my personal life style so I am trying to get as much information possible. The general point of view I am getting from breeders is that MC does not cope well with being alone all day and need constant attention.


I can only speak for myself but my Sasha, even thought he has someone in the house all day still pined for company of a feline kind and so went out and brought home his own company which is how we ended up with Maizy. Sasha's breeder does prefer to home kittens together and offers a £100 discount if you take two. She recommends two if they are going to be alone for a significant portion of the day and that you take a least a weeks holiday, preferably two when you bring them home to help them settle in. They are incredibly affectionate and friendly cats, good luck!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> :Hilarious Having bred and sat on breed committees for many years myself, I have seen the talk/activity around an unpleasant subject at work and the fact remains that some breeders are very good at the head-in-the-sand job, especially if they fear their own cats might be implicated regardless that blame cannot be apportioned to them. You can have all the experience in the world, it means nothing if you ignore the facts. :Bag
> 
> So you'd rather go to a breeder who only does the bare minimum, simply because they've been around for a while?


As you don't sit on the Maine Coon committees, or, I presume, know the breeders I'm referring to particularly well, I can very much reassure you that the breeders involved are not the head in the sand types.

And no, I would rather go to a breeder who gene tests for HCM, SMA, PK Def, snap tests for FIV and FeLV, breeds cats to type, shows, and has numerous years of experience, rather than a breeder who doesn't gene test at all but scans because they think that's all they need to do, doesn't show, doesn't breed to type, and has little experience. Quite a few MC breeders think scanning alone is sufficient, it is not. I would much rather go with a breeder who fully gene tests and doesn't scan, than a breeder who only scans and nothing else.



Paddypaws said:


> Good point, but OP has made no mention of family and I think there is a big difference between a family household and one where there is just a single person ( speaking as the latter)


Even in that case, I might be more inclined to go for a working couple or person than not as I would be reassured that they would easily be able to afford the costs of a cat. I'm not saying I would jump at the sale, of course not, but I am open to individual situations rather than making a blanket rule. I don't think it's right to say absolutely no individual rehoming of any kind, as some cats can and do do very well as singletons, even Maine Coons. I think it's important that the OP approaches breeders honestly, with it in mind that they may not get anywhere, but they would at least find one breeder who would be willing to work with them with a suitable kitten.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tangent aside, my point is this:

When looking for a Maine Coon, don't be under the assumption that a breeder that doesn't scan is a bad breeder or that a breeder who does scan is a good breeder. The bare minimum a Maine Coon needs is a HCM negative gene test. Additional tests of SMA and PK Def are extremely advantageous, and if they scan then bonus. As long as they have the three negatives gene tests, that is the 'Maine' thing.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> As you don't sit on the Maine Coon committees, or, I presume, know the breeders I'm referring to particularly well


Ever heard of the saying "One should never presume"


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> Ever heard of the saying "One should never presume"


Then you would know who I'm referring to and would know that none are the ostrich type. I think we've derailed the thread enough, don't you?


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## bluecordelia (Jan 5, 2014)

I think for the original post we would all agree that most cats like a bit of cat company and most MC’s are sociable dare I say nosey souls. 

Blue when inside is never far away . 

I am off to look up Blues gramps to see her delicate jaw. Love picking up stuff like this x


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## Emmasian (Aug 22, 2015)

I have three MCs, am single and work 9-5. They have the run of quite a big house, lots of beds to snuggle on, cat trees, windowsills, toys, games etc. When I am home they have a catproof garden and my undivided attention. They sleep with me and we all cuddle up in a big heap in the dark evenings. I think they are happy. Everyone certainly remarks on how chilled out and friendly they are.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> It's PK Def in Maine Coons - pyruvate kidney dedficiency. PKD is polycystic kidney disease, the two are commonly mixed up as they're similar when written down, although different diseases of course. PKD isn't known to be in Maine Coons, but PK Def is, as is spinal muscular atrophy (SMA) so breeders should really also test for those two.
> 
> At a very minimum an MC cattery should test negative for HCM, where each parent is gene tested n/n. There's some debate over whether annual ECGs are useful or not, but at the very least a gene test should be done. Personally I would look for PK Def and SMA negative test results too, as there are a number of carriers in the UK gene pool.


A few years ago when I got Little H PKdef had just started to be recognised in MCs and it was prevalent in those tested - Langfords informed me that 1 in 3 had at least 1 gene (therefore were carriers)

Little H's breeder sadly wasn't up to date with the information (and admits she made a mistake) so he does unfortunately have both genes. She very quickly tested all her cats and adjusted her breeding accordingly.

Touch wood I have been extremely lucky so far, he has remained symptom free as far as I'm aware. At the time I found out there wasn't enough data on the MCs who had the condition as there was only about 4 years historical research. He is now 3 and from what I gather if a cat can reach at least 4 years of age symptom free or with only mild symptoms then they have a good chance of a long healthy life (Illness and stress are the main triggers of the condition).

I would only go to a breeder who tested for PKdef along with the other tests Rufus mentioned.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

All the MC breeders I know HCM scanning every 1-2 years, while it’s not perfect with sometimes cats retiring before scanning positive, as with other breeds it is currently the best tool for detecting changes.

I would personally feel more comfortable buying a kitten off a breeder who scans their cats.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> All the MC breeders I know HCM scanning every 1-2 years, while it's not perfect with sometimes cats retiring before scanning positive, as with other breeds it is currently the best tool for detecting changes.
> 
> I would personally feel more comfortable buying a kitten off a breeder who scans their cats.


I'm guessing you mean as well as DNA test where there is one, which is currently only for Ragdolls (maybe Ragamuffins) and Maine Coons. HCM is a problem in quite a few other breeds.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm guessing you mean as well as DNA test where there is one, which is currently only for Ragdolls (maybe Ragamuffins) and Maine Coons. HCM is a problem in quite a few other breeds.


Yes, I was only commenting about scanning specifically.
I would expect all other relevant DNA tests to be done of course.


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## rommy (Feb 12, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I am a soon-to-be Maine Coon breeder, after being mentored for 6 years and showing for two. I'm just waiting for the right girl now.
> 
> If you want to pm me I'd be happy to help direct you to a registered, ethical breeder.
> 
> Maine Coons are a very social breed and do like company, and they're addictive. One is never enough! I do know some MCs however that are very happy as singletons, I would discuss this with your breeder to match you to a kitten that will cope with being alone for those hours.


I have been looking for the option to send a PM to you. But just found out that I cannot send a PM as its a new account. Would you mind to send me a PM with the contact details of breeder.

Once again thank you for all your help.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Of course, no problem


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Does this apply to cat scratchers? If I offer £30 for an £80 scratcher will I get it?


Haha.

For £30 you can have one of the ones made in the Far East by slaves who eat cats.
Actually, you can get them for £11.99, but they don't last long.
£70 will get you one made in Britain by cat lovers, and which will last for 10-20 years, which makes them £3.50 to £7 per year cost of ownership; cheaper even than the ones made by cat-eating slaves.
High quality cat furniture is cheap to those who can afford it; very expensive to those who can't.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

PetloverJo said:


> View attachment 345023
> 
> Henry who is half brother to the beautiful blue above was £375 , 6 years ago. He is registered with the GCCF under an administrative prefix. In the cat world a cat breeder has to be a member of a cat club a year before the head honcho will sign the application for their cattery to have a prefix. Well that is what I have been led to believe. There are some good registered breeders are some ok registered breeders. Make sure you do your research. If they say there cats are pkd neg and hcm neg. Ask to see written proof.
> 
> ...


By god, he's an impressive-looking beast.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

mewtoo said:


> High quality cat furniture is cheap to those who can afford it; very expensive to those who can't.


One could say the same about pedigree cats, and those that can't afford should rescue.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> One could say the same about pedigree cats, and those that can't afford should rescue.


Of course.
It's slightly different though because what I meant was that someone who can afford an initial outlay of (for example) £70 on a quality cat post will save money over the long run (because they don't have to keep replacing it) whereas a person who can only afford an initial outlay of £11.99 (RRP £25.99 :Hilarious) will spend more in the long run due to having to replace it more often.
I don't think that would work with cats because whether you adopt one for £50 or spend £3000 on a rare breed, the "running costs" of the cat are not affected, UNLESS the person who has abandoned the cat has done so due to a hidden medical condition of the cat which they have deceitfully withheld from the new keeper.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> Haha.
> 
> For £30 you can have one of the ones made in the Far East by slaves who eat cats.
> Actually, you can get them for £11.99, but they don't last long.
> ...


So market forces apply to the cost of a kitten - a living sentient being - but not to the cost of the lump of whatever that's a cat scratcher?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> <snip>
> I don't think that would work with cats because whether you adopt one for £50 or spend £3000 on a rare breed, the "running costs" of the cat are not affected, UNLESS the person who has abandoned the cat has done so due to a hidden medical condition of the cat which they have deceitfully withheld from the new keeper.


You don't? Why on earth not?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

mewtoo said:


> whether you adopt one for £50 or spend £3000 on a rare breed, the "running costs" of the cat are not affected


Clearly you have never had a semi longhair who needs regular brushing and dematting.


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## bluecordelia (Jan 5, 2014)

I wonder if I could afford another pedigree in the future. The cost is going up more than my wages!


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> So market forces apply to the cost of a kitten - a living sentient being - but not to the cost of the lump of whatever that's a cat scratcher?


Market forces apply to both of course.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> You don't? Why on earth not?


Because cats which cost £50 to adopt from a charity (or buy from a random litter) don't necessarily cost any more to keep than cats which cost £3000 to buy, UNLESS (as I already stated above), the cat has been abandoned by its keeper because they have a medical condition which costs money to treat, the cost of which is then passed on to the new keeper.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Clearly you have never had a semi longhair who needs regular brushing and dematting.












Here's my fluffy fluff. He doesn't cost a penny more to groom than my old cat Poppy, who was a short-haired tabby. Grooming isn't a cost; it's a pleasure.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

mewtoo said:


> Market forces apply to both of course.


Market forces do not apply to kitten prices. There is no profit margin let alone a profit motive. There is no comparable competition since it is impossible to quantify the merits of one line over another. Do not compare apples with pears.

These are not 'businesses' with CEOs getting huge salaries and bonuses. There are not even salaried staff or workers' wages to be paid. If there were, the cost of kittens would be phenomenal. When I was breeding the first inkling I had that somebody was motivated by the price of the kitten was the moment I ended all further communication.

The whole point of this thread in the first place was a discussion about a kitten possibly being sold by a less than reputable breeder. With luck, the additional legislation proposed for the Animal Welfare Bill will at least begin to address this issue. The GCCF estimates that most if not all of its breeders will not have to be licensed.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Market forces do not apply to kitten prices. There is no profit margin let alone a profit motive. There is no comparable competition since it is impossible to quantify the merits of one line over another. Do not compare apples with pears.
> 
> These are not 'businesses' with CEOs getting huge salaries and bonuses. There are not even salaried staff or workers' wages to be paid. If there were, the cost of kittens would be phenomenal. When I was breeding the first inkling I had that somebody was motivated by the price of the kitten was the moment I ended all further communication.
> 
> The whole point of this thread in the first place was a discussion about a kitten possibly being sold by a less than reputable breeder. With luck, the additional legislation proposed for the Animal Welfare Bill will at least begin to address this issue. The GCCF estimates that most if not all of its breeders will not have to be licensed.


Of course market forces still apply.
Someone above was kind enough to have detailed some costs involved in the provision of these kittens for sale.
If someone could figure out a way to lower the costs of proving the kitten for sale, then the cost of the kitten could come down.
If there were more breeders of a breed which cost, for example, £3000, then the cost of buying the kittens of that breed would come down.
So market forces do apply, as they do to everything.

I was thinking about it because a couple of years ago I was looking at kittens for sale (looked at puppies too), just out of interest, and I saw that the prices were varied, although the kittens were all being "packaged for sale" in the same way, with vaccinations, de-worming, chipping, neutering, etc. So it occurred to me that since the same, or similar, was being spent on the preparation of each kitten for sale, then the difference in price, from ~£500 to ~£4000, was likely down to the scarcity of the availability of kittens of each particular breed. Or in other words, the people selling the kittens for ~£500 were making far less money (if any money at all) than the people selling the kittens for ~£4000.
Therefore, if Breed X kittens were selling for ~£4000, then someone else could enter the market and breed and sell the kittens of Breed X for £2000 or £3000. This would annoy the hell out of the person selling them for ~£4000, but that's competition.

The person I know who sells their yappy dog puppies cannot charge as much for them now as they used to be able to, because more people are now breeding this particular breed of yappy dog, so the price of each yappy dog puppy has come down due to supply/ demand economics.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I give up! You are not listening.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I give up! You are not listening.


Example:

There is one breeder of Breed X in the market and they are doing it for profit. They sell all their kittens for £3000 each. It costs them £500 per kitten to supply the kitten to the market. They make £2500 profit per kitten.
Another breeder of Breed X enters the market, for profit, and doubles the supply of kittens of Breed X.
If demand for kittens of Breed X does not double, but stays the same, then the cost to buy each kitten of Breed X will go down, as there is now competition from the second breeder for buyers.
Another breeder enters the market. This breeder does not do it for profit; they are an enthusiast and just want to cover their costs. They offer their kittens for £500 so that they break even.
The first and second breeders exit the market because there is no longer any profit in it.
The third breeder now starts selling their kittens for £3000 because why not make some money whilst having fun.
The process repeats.

Everyone buys a dog one year. The third breeder becomes a cat lady. The end :Happy


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I do not know of any ethical breeder that sells a kitten for £3000 or £4000. The general going rate for a pedigree is £500-750 depending on breed and breeder's location. Anyone selling for more than that is not a breeder that registers and is out to make a profit. Breeders do not undercut each other to make a sale.

Your post about finding a way to make things cheaper is laughable. Perhaps tell the food companies, or vets, to reduce their prices, and then we will see a reduction in pedigree costs.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> I do not know of any ethical breeder that sells a kitten for £3000 or £4000. The general going rate for a pedigree is £500-750 depending on breed and breeder's location. Anyone selling for more than that is not a breeder that registers and is out to make a profit. Breeders do not undercut each other to make a sale.
> 
> Your post about finding a way to make things cheaper is laughable. Perhaps tell the food companies, or vets, to reduce their prices, and then we will see a reduction in pedigree costs.


I was merely pointing out that if costs can be reduced, then the "product" can be sold for less. This applies to kittens, chocolate bars, lorries, everything.

Maybe the kittens could be offered without chipping and neutering to customers who didn't want these added extras, so that the cost could come down a tad.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

mewtoo said:


> I was merely pointing out that if costs can be reduced, then the "product" can be sold for less. This applies to kittens, chocolate bars, lorries, everything.
> Maybe the kittens could be offered without chipping and neutering to customers who didn't want these added extras, so that the cost could come down a tad.


Bridges and goats spring to mind.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Bridges and goats spring to mind.


I saw that at the Tate but I can't see the connection with kittens :Happy


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> I was merely pointing out that if costs can be reduced, then the "product" can be sold for less. This applies to kittens, chocolate bars, lorries, everything.
> 
> Maybe the kittens could be offered without chipping and neutering to customers who didn't want these added extras, so that the cost could come down a tad.


Scratching posts as well.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Scratching posts as well.


Exactly!
I just make mine as a hobby, but if I were to produce them commercially then the cost would come down a bit. Same goes for everything. Lower production costs = lower selling price OR more profit per item.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

mewtoo said:


> I was merely pointing out that if costs can be reduced, then the "product" can be sold for less. This applies to kittens, chocolate bars, lorries, everything.
> 
> Maybe the kittens could be offered without chipping and neutering to customers who didn't want these added extras, so that the cost could come down a tad.


Kittens are not a product, they are a living, sentient being. To view them as a product is what backyard breeders do.

Chipping and neutering is a small part of the cost, and removing either of those puts the health and wellbeing of the kitten at risk. Again, not something ethical breeders will do.

You're really not getting this, are you?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> I was merely pointing out that if costs can be reduced, then the "product" can be sold for less. This applies to kittens, chocolate bars, lorries, everything.
> 
> Maybe the kittens could be offered without chipping and neutering to customers who didn't want these added extras, so that the cost could come down a tad.


Would I want my kittens to go to someone who didn't want to neuter them because it meant spending some money? No, and I bet my vet is cheaper than their vet for neutering since she gives me a discount.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Kittens are not a product, they are a living, sentient being. To view them as a product is what backyard breeders do.
> 
> Chipping and neutering is a small part of the cost, and removing either of those puts the health and wellbeing of the kitten at risk. Again, not something ethical breeders will do.
> 
> You're really not getting this, are you?


You misunderstand.

For the purpose of discussing economics, anything physical which can be sold is referred to as a "product". Kittens are living beings, but also products when sold, if you see what I mean. Otherwise, when discussing economics, everyone would have to say "products and living, sentient beings" instead of just "products". It'd be cumbersome.

The thing with the chipping and neutering is that when applied to the kitten, along with "welcome packs" and other such things, it does make make the kitten sound more like a product. If I were to buy a kitten, I would want to buy just the kitten; the chipping and neutering I would prefer to take care of myself. If a person would like to pay more for the whole package then of course they may do so.


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Would I want my kittens to go to someone who didn't want to neuter them because it meant spending some money? No, and I bet my vet is cheaper than their vet for neutering since she gives me a discount.


Is it possible to sell them subject to them being neutered and chipped at a later date?
What I mean is: what if the customer would like to immerse himself in the whole process of keeping a cat, meaning that he would like to organise the neutering and chipping himself, rather than buying what is in effect a kitten which has been packaged for sale?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

mewtoo said:


> You misunderstand.
> 
> For the purpose of discussing economics, anything physical which can be sold is referred to as a "product". Kittens are living beings, but also products when sold, if you see what I mean. Otherwise, when discussing economics, everyone would have to say "products and living, sentient beings" instead of just "products". It'd be cumbersome.
> 
> The thing with the chipping and neutering is that when applied to the kitten, along with "welcome packs" and other such things, it does make make the kitten sound more like a product. If I were to buy a kitten, I would want to buy just the kitten; the chipping and neutering I would prefer to take care of myself. If a person would like to pay more for the whole package then of course they may do so.


Neutering in particular is done for the safety and well being of the kitten. The wishes of the human that eventually take them home are neither here nor there. Too many people have 'just one litter', and I won't have put all that time into my lines and taking care of my babies to have some idiot have a litter to the detriment of my kitten.

You will find most registered breeders are of this view. Again, sets us apart from backyard breeders - we actually care about our cats and kittens. They are not a business, they are a hobby and much loved pets.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> Is it possible to sell them subject to them being neutered and chipped at a later date?
> What I mean is: what if the customer would like to immerse himself in the whole process of keeping a cat, meaning that he would like to organise the neutering and chipping himself, rather than buying what is in effect a kitten which has been packaged for sale?


Plenty of people who have done that have fallen foul of their kitten ending up with a BYB. I've had enquiries that have put the phone down on me when I remind them their kitten will be neutered before she leaves. Next of all you will be asking for us to not feed them so you can 'immerse yourself' in the process. However here's a great offer. You could come round every day and scoop the litter trays. Total immersion...


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Neutering in particular is done for the safety and well being of the kitten. The wishes of the human that eventually are neither here nor there.


But if the neutering is going to be done by the new keeper of the kitten then the kitten's well-being will be taken care of. Are buyers generally seen as being incapable of seeing to the cat's well-being themselves?


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Next of all you will be asking for us to not feed them so you can 'immerse yourself' in the process.


How would starving a cat to death help with anything? Are you feeling all right?



OrientalSlave said:


> However here's a great offer. You could come round every day and scoop the litter trays. Total immersion...


I would probably be up for that every other day if it meant being able to see the kitten.
Maybe just scoop one of the trays though :Hilarious

I jest though. Just the neutering and chipping can be left to the buyer if that's what they want. If they want to experience as much of the joy of keeping a cat as possible.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> <snip>
> I jest though. Just the neutering and chipping can be left to the buyer if that's what they want. If they want to experience as much of the joy of keeping a cat as possible.


Not really sure how neutering fits into 'the joy of keeping a cat'. Most people find it rather stressful, not joyous, worrying about their kitten. And see my comment above which you have ignored - it prevents my kittens falling into the hands of BYBs


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Not really sure how neutering fits into 'the joy of keeping a cat'. Most people find it rather stressful, not joyous, worrying about their kitten. And see my comment above which you have ignored - it prevents my kittens falling into the hands of BYBs


What about if the buyer isn't a BYB? Are buyers generally assumed to be BYBs?

I've had cats who I/ we have neutered ourselves. It's a straightforward process and its nice to care for the cat during and after the process. Some people won't want to go through that; others might want to. I would want to.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

ewelsh said:


> I would have thought over £1,000 marker. Is your breeder registered in UK?


It really does vary by area. A cat from Tali's line would have been well north of £1000 in London. Thankfully I don't live there (and not just because of cat prices)

(having read more of the thread, wasn't looking to get into any prices debates , just wanted to point out pedigree prices can vary by region, so it isn't necessarily a red flag)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> What about if the buyer isn't a BYB? Are buyers generally assumed to be BYBs?
> 
> I've had cats who I/ we have neutered ourselves. It's a straightforward process and its nice to care for the cat during and after the process. Some people won't want to go through that; others might want to. I would want to.


It's true not all are but there is no reliable way I've come across except neutering my kittens before they leave of filtering them out. And as for the guff about 'care for the cat during and after'. Good grief. The vet and their staff care for the cat during the operation and boys especially need nothing more than a few hours to get over the anaesthetic. They don't need a week's bed rest and meals on a tea tray.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

@mewtoo, if you were not so close to that bridge I would try to reason with you. You are the one 'discussing economics,' the rest of us are not. Never the twain.........


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> It's true not all are but there is no reliable way I've come across except neutering my kittens before they leave of filtering them out.


Oh. I wouldn't fancy being suspected of being things I'm not by the person selling me something.


OrientalSlave said:


> And as for the guff about 'care for the cat during and after'. Good grief. The vet and their staff care for the cat during the operation and boys especially need nothing more than a few hours to get over the anaesthetic. They don't need a week's bed rest and meals on a tea tray.


Well if they did need a week's rest and meals on a tea tray then I might want my kitten to be pre-neutered, but since they don't, then there's no reason why the customer, if they wish, can't take care of the neutering themself


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

QOTN said:


> @mewtoo, if you were not so close to that bridge I would try to reason with you. You are the one 'discussing economics,' the rest of us are not. Never the twain.........


I'm nowhere near that bridge. It's in the Tate in London. I'm 150 miles away.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

The breeder has a duty of care to the cat, and that includes making sure that it doesn't end up as a kitten factory or with avoidable disease. Doesn't involve accusing or suspecting new buyers of anything.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

QOTN said:


> @mewtoo, if you were not so close to that bridge I would try to reason with you. You are the one 'discussing economics,' the rest of us are not. Never the twain.........


I suspect you are all being deliberately wound up


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Jonescat said:


> The breeder has a duty of care to the cat, and that includes making sure that it doesn't end up as a kitten factory or with avoidable disease. Doesn't involve accusing or suspecting new buyers of anything.


It's a bit of a shame though that the way to avoid the cat becoming a factory or ending up with a disease is to take away its reproductive capabilities.

There seem to be a couple of reasons for supplying a pre-neutered cat, but human nature being what it is, there's a big motivation for supplying a cat which can definitely not be used to compete for business with the person who sold it. So come on lads and lasses, tell me what that final big reason is.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

mewtoo said:


> It's a bit of a shame though that the way to avoid the cat becoming a factory or ending up with a disease is to take away its reproductive capabilities..


It is just biology for beginners as opposed to anthropomorphisation.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

SbanR said:


> I suspect you are all being deliberately wound up


As I was saying!


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## mewtoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Anyway, I was chatting to one of my cat ladies this afternoon and she deals with some breeders and has done for a long time (she helps them out with things) and she confirmed all the above reasons for pre-neutering, but also said that it's to eliminate competition as well.
I suppose it's like intellectual property, but for living, sentient beings.


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## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

I think I understand mewtoo’s point. 

We can dance around it and say it is all for love but there are incentives behind breeding. Breeders do get money and I am sure it is not always just covering costs. 
The cats that are not sold are then kept for breeding or showing. Those that are sold make space for the breeder to breed more and keep those that are wanted by the breeder.
Some breeders (not all) then get rid of cats they no longer want for breeding or showing when they are older. 

I don’t see anything wrong in breeders selling cats. That is life, most things can be broken down into exchanges, either money, services or some other type of exchange. It is economic based, even if the excess cats are just covering costs.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

mewtoo said:


> Of course market forces still apply.
> Someone above was kind enough to have detailed some costs involved in the provision of these kittens for sale.
> If someone could figure out a way to lower the costs of proving the kitten for sale, then the cost of the kitten could come down.
> If there were more breeders of a breed which cost, for example, £3000, then the cost of buying the kittens of that breed would come down.


I usually read to the end of all comments before replying (if I feel the need) but your comments above have stopped me in my tracks.

I'm totally bemused by your reasoning. I am a cat breeder/exhibitor. If you can 'figure a way' to 'lower my costs' then I would dearly love to hear it. You may just be able to help me "lose" a little less money than I do currently.

I'm not even sure how to answer your other point - if there were more breeders the cost would come down. Does this mean if a particular breeed got to saturation point that a breeder would be able to give away kittens for free? What is it about a breed being bred in larger numbers that makes you think it would be less expensive for me to breed and raise a litter?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

:Troll


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Now that I have actually read to the end, I see I needn't have bothered commenting. Has to be a troll. Nobody could be so stupid and obtuse.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Now that I have actually read to the end, I see I needn't have bothered commenting. Has to be a troll. Nobody could be so stupid and obtuse.


Rather interestingly he posted on Feb 13th then nothing until afternoon and since then post after post after post. I think he had a temporary ban.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this to read through.
Remaining closed.
@rommy I hope you have more information and understanding now about what to look out for and I hope you find a suitable Maine Coon kitten before too long.
@mewtoo you are entitled to your opinions on what breeding is all about but your posts are nothing short of trolling and looking for an argument.


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