# My princess may be pregnant!



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## hope (May 25, 2011)

hello and welcome to pf 

congratulations if you doggie is pregnant.does she have papers ?


----------



## hope (May 25, 2011)

arr hopefully she is sound like she could be fingers crossed for you and look forward to hearing off you when you been to the vets  

would be nice to see pics of her


----------



## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

She is a beautiful dog so if she gives you babies I want pics....lots of them


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Should you not know basic coat genetics if you're a breeder?

She is a stunner though x


----------



## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi there your girl is gorgeous


----------



## jallytony (Oct 24, 2011)

pomlover87 said:


> First one is of her, this is the picture I took for her registration papers.  The 2nd is of her and the daddy. I wonder since the father is a parti, do you think she could have a black and white parti baby?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


both of them are so cute,i believe if she is pregnant,their baby will be very nice.congratulations!:thumbup:


----------



## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

Shes a big girl  word of warning 3 is quite old for a first litter in a toy breed so you may need a c section, her size should help though. Is she an AKC champion?? I know x raying in pregnancy is big in the US, if you choose to be sure to get your vet to measure her pelvis against the size of the pups. Their pelvis' harden at around 2 if not bred so can cause problems with whelping especially if they have a smaller pelvis.

Colour wise you need to know what is behind both parents. She will deffo have blacks I think as it's dominant on the dams side and the granddam. Partis I'm not sure if are dominant or not.
The father looks more fawn spotted on White to me but his nose looks chocolate so would carry the chocolate gene, you could get choc pups. 
I actually really like v typey orange sable poms


----------



## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

Here's a site re coat colourings genetics which you may find interesting

Dog Coat Colour Genetics


----------



## lillynharry (Jan 23, 2010)

They are gorgeous!:001_wub: I've never bred a litter so im not much help but hope it all works out fine for you. xx


----------



## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

Using a smaller stud doesn't actually mean much it depends on his and her genetics you could have a 4lb boy who throws massive pups.

I hope it goes well for you. Toy dogs mature earlier than other breeds. 2nd or 3rd season is the norm to breed them for the first time. 

Hopefully you have had both their knees scored and eyes and hearts tested prior to mating. Good luck


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_your princess is gorgeous, i bred poms a while back, i had a black stud and cream bitch, they had two litters, all the pups where black. they were much smaller than yours though,, i hope it all goes well if she is._


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

They are both gorgeous!
Hope she is & you are disappointed later!
Good luck with her & the 'pregnancy'


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

pomlover87 said:


> First one is of her, this is the picture I took for her registration papers.  The 2nd is of her and the daddy. I wonder since the father is a parti, do you think she could have a black and white parti baby?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





pomlover87 said:


> . . . All of her siblings were black and her mother was black, so I'm not yet knowledgeable of pomeranian genetic colors. I would think it's possible though, because the father has a cream mask and spots on his back, so maybe they could be turned black against white? Guess time will tell.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the compliments! I think she's beautiful, of course.


Hi. I'm posting just to speak on the color of the future pups. I feel that if those entering the breeding arena can begin to understand the complexities of color genetics, which is appealing to learn, then hopefully they will feel less challenged and learn more on the full genetics topic.

You first have to understand that there are many color genes that interact to create the color that you see on a dog. . . . 11 gene locations that I can think of off the top of my head and more that aren't identified yet.

Your dam is black . . . and solid in color as well (no/little white). The sire is parti with lemon sable patches. He appears to have black eye rims and a black nose - so he is not a blue or brown sable but a black (based) lemon sable.

You are looking to figure on the color of the pups from this girl and off the top I will tell you that the odds are that most (if not all) will be black.

Parti coloring is determined on the 'white spotting' locus, and it is recessive. In order for a pup to be parti, they have to take on a white spotting (s'p') allele from each one of their parents. When a pup has a matched pair of alleles - s'p'/s'p' - at the white spotting gene locus, THEN they will show parti coloring.

Your dam is solid, with a solid colored dam. She MIGHT carry a parti-piebald (s'p') allele if an ancestor was parti colored. Do you know of any behind HER that were parti?

If she does not carry that parti allele, but instead has two solid color alleles (S/S) at that location, then each and every one of her pups will inherit an S from her, and an s'p' from the litter sire, and be S/s'p' at their white spotting gene locus. This will mean that they will be solid colored themselves without much, or any, white. Some will show a little bit of white on toe tips and chests etc. as they are then parti carriers.

If you use this punnet square and substitute S for B (dominant alleles), and s'p' for b (recessive alleles) . . . you can get a visual for how this works. If just one of the paired alleles in the pup is dominant, that is the allele that will show while the other is carried.










Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Of all the 'full' colors (colors with no/little white) black is also dominant to all others. It is dominant to sable. If your dam carries sable then some of the pups from this pairing could be sable as well.

Hope that helped. I welcome more questions if there are any, as I know that confusion often happens when speaking on color genetics.

CC

Dog Coat Colour Genetics


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

pomlover87 said:


> She isn't solid black. She has a white patch on her chin, chest, and white hairs on the tip of her toes. She has the exact same markings as her mother. 2 of her siblings were solid black, the runt looked more of a sable, but she didn't make it because her lungs weren't fully developed, so I don't know how her colors would have progressed. I would be fine having a litter of black pups, because everyone who has asked me for one is wanting a black one.


Just to clarify, dogs with white tips on chins or chests or toe tips are often genetically 'solid' in color. I know that for reasons of description these tips are described and many speak of them as then 'not solid', but when speaking genetically they are considered solids as they have the same 'genotype' as the solids. It is a transcription error that often causes the white tips - meaning that color is distributed on the tiny pup as it develops in utero and spreads out over it, and sometimes does not finish spreading, leaving tips such as on your girl.

I own a solid colored dog (genetically) that has a full white blaze, a white chest, and four white socks. He has been tested, though, and he is S/s'p' - solid, carrying piebald. He has a full sibling that is also S/s'p' that shows no white whatsoever. Genetically, they are the same at the white spotting locus.

If she had a sable sibling she could very well carry sable. White tips also sometimes indicate a dog is carrying piebald (parti) such as with my boy.

Your dam is a gorgeous girl and has wonderful soft expression. I could well imagine that her black pups, and her others, will be gorgeous.

SOB


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## francesandjon (Jun 3, 2009)

She's gorgeous, good luck!


----------



## Trojan (Oct 1, 2011)

Good luck, fingers crossed she is and all goes well


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Yes, she is sable. This means that both Sadie's sire either was sable, or carried sable, and that her black dam was a sable carrier.

If Sadie's sire was sable, then she would have taken an a'y' (sable) allele from him on the agouti locus**. In that case for sure she is a carrier.

Was he sable?

** It is possible that the sire or dam of Sadie could be carrying a't' as well, which is recessive even to sable. ONE, however, would have given an a'y' allele to that pup for her to show sable.

CC


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

hope all goes well


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

pomlover87 said:


> First one is of her, this is the picture I took for her registration papers.
> .


hi,
They are lovely! Sorry if this it daft, but who is she registered with? I thought it was only registries like DLC that require pictures (and will register on looks alone)?


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Fingers crossed for you and your lil girl is adorable - bet she'll have amazing puppies if she is pregnant. Please keep us informed!


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## francesandjon (Jun 3, 2009)

Congratulations!


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I thought you weren't supposed to supplement with calcium until after the birth? Something to do with pre eclampsia?


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Ah, I'd always assumed the continental kc was the states equivalent of dlc- fewer questions asked kinda thing (and many use it because it's cheaper?) like I say I have no idea or personal experience, just what I've seen on other forums about ckc...

Will 2 pups be a good litter for a pom- not grow too big prewhelp or anything on her? Sounds like you have your bases covered neways!  

But for future readers- careful with calcium supplements pre whelp- if you don't have a mentor to tell you exactly what to give... Find one! :thumbup:

Can't wait for fluffball pics!


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

No offence but I wouldn't trust anyone who called a chi a wire head chihuahua, there is a long coat or a smooth coat no wire hair, deer head, teacup etc 

The CKC is like our DLC not worth the paper it's written on you can put anything down as a pedigree. The only reason the AKC wouldn't reg a litter is if the parents weren't AKC. I know a lot of exhibitors in the US and apparently only the AKC is reputable.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Shrap said:


> I thought you weren't supposed to supplement with calcium until after the birth? Something to do with pre eclampsia?


You shouldnt ever supplement with calcium until after birth you are correct, and anyone that had researched would have known this. But its hardly shocking that yet again we have a 'breeder' showing total lack of knowledge which could infact affect her dog, and how labour progresses 

People are concerned for irresponsible breeding for various reasons;
- Dogs in rescue.
- Suffering of dogs, that are bred in an unsuitable manner.
- Dogs suffering at the hands of clueless folk.
- Dogs suffering because they have been raised and bred by folk who dont care about health, or the breed.
- Dogs suffering because the buyer wasnt important, nor the life the pup would leave just the money.

Really I could go on all day.

Your dogs paperwork means nothing, because its not a true set of paper work - Therefore she has little, well nothing to offer in the way of improving a breed, or the health and likewise of an established line/breed.

There are very few reason for breeding this dog, and none are in my opinions vaild reasons. - Its done for self gain, greed and selfish'ness.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

Good luck with your girl's pregnancy. I am really looking forward to some fluffy baby pics


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Don't listen to them, I think these people are been down right rude!
Obviously you care about your dog, I can tell that from your post, so good luck  & I also can't wait to see some pictures! 
Just ignore the people who say otherwise, there's no need for them to post if they're just been rude


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Well said  You really should post pictures though, not everyone on here are haters.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

Devil-Dogz, I appreciate that you have all dogs best interests at heart but I think you are being incredibly rude. I think it is very clear from OP's posts that she wants nothing but the best for her girl and is not doing this for greed, especially as she has stated she is quite happy to get just 2 pups, one for her and one for a home already pre-selected. She has what she sees as a reliable mentor as as she has seen her whelp a litter and seen the dogs grow healthily, why wouldn't she think that the person's advice is anything but sound? Perhaps with some reading the op would have found different opinions but we have seen countless examples of bad written advice so why would she think this was better advice than the advice she gets from the mentor she has.

I think there are far too many that are judgemental on this forum without actually offering constructive advice.

To the OP I would say just make sure that you have a wide a range of advice as you can get. Good luck x


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Well said  You really should post pictures though, not everyone on here are haters.


haters of what?

breeding dogs when you dont have a clue is downright irresponsible, you dont gain experience by taking unnecessary risks with a bitch or puppies, first time breeders should have mentors to guide them, who have plenty of hands on experience and knowledge.

.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> , first time breeders should have mentors to guide them, who have plenty of hands on experience and knowledge.
> 
> .


She does have a mentor. Just because some may not agree with the advice she is receiving doesn't mean she is a bad person or a byb. Op is clearly trying her best and I don't think criticising and bullying her is at all constructive.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

pomlover87 said:


> Thank you, I appreciate what you've said. I don't want to withhold pictures from people who have been nice, but I just don't think I could take the negativity and rudeness from know-it-alls. I'm about to burst into tears because if they think I'm not trying my very best to take care of my baby, they're very wrong. I'm only doing what I was told to do, and honestly, if you all think it's selfish, I'm breeding my dog because I love her so much that I couldn't stand the fact that someday when she dies there's nothing in this world left of her, if you want the truth. I'm keeping one of her pups because I want a part of her to stay with me. If you think that's selfish, then so be it, but that's the reason. I don't care about the money, I may not even sell them, I may give them to good homes. I just wanted a little optimism and support, but I can see I'm not going to get it here, except by maybe a few. Thank you, to ones who have been nice to me. As for the rest of you, you're like piranhas, and I would warn anyone new posting here.





pomlover87 said:


> I may post a few pictures for you to see. I'm scared to death, honestly. I'm near tears most days because I don't want anything to happen to her. I'm trying so hard, and it seems most of the advice I get here is cold and hateful. I know there's risks, and some days I wish I hadn't bred her at all because I can't find optimism from anyone that could help me. The breeder I got her from is supportive, and I suppose that's all I really need.


Please do  Even if you don't post anything else, just post a few pictures for the people that actually care & let us know how it goes 
I can see that you're trying your best! & you obviously care about your dog, i'm sorry these people have upset you & been rude. At least you have tried to ask for advice from someone who has bred a litter, not everyone even does that! & it's not like everyone can find someone if they don't know anyone, I think your dogs breeder would have been my option as well if I needed help. So don't feel bad  Good luck! I hope everything goes really well for you & your gorgeous little dog 



noushka05 said:


> haters of what?
> 
> breeding dogs when you dont have a clue is downright irresponsible, you dont gain experience by taking unnecessary risks with a bitch or puppies, first time breeders should have mentors to guide them, who have plenty of hands on experience and knowledge.


The thing is though you're just being down right awful! There is no need! Who gave you the right to upset people who are trying their best. If you were being nice & giving constructive critisicm then it would be okay but you're just being rude & you're making the forum look like a hateful place to new comers which I find disgusting, sorry but it's true. She obviously cares about her dog & I don't see why you need to be so nasty.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

debs78 said:


> She does have a mentor. Just because some may not agree with the advice she is receiving doesn't mean she is a bad person or a byb. Op is clearly trying her best and I don't think criticising and bullying her is at all constructive.


im not bullying anyone.



pomlover87 said:


> I do have a mentor. As I've said, she lives less than a block from me and is willing to help me whenever I need it. She's helped in the whelping of at least 4 litters that I have known of, one being a husky/malamute mix, so she's worked in large and small breeds.


well im sorry but you need to find yourself another one who knows what theyre talking about because shes giving you dangerous advice.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> im not bullying anyone.
> 
> well im sorry but you need to find yourself another one who knows what theyre talking about because shes giving you dangerous advice.


Then perhaps you could tell the op exactly why the advice is dangerous and suggest a better way of doing it. It would be a lot more helpful and then you wouldn't seem so downright rude and obstructive.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> Heaven forbid something ever happens to your dog, goddess of breeding, just because you do "all the right things" doesn't mean it's always going to go right. Shame on you for being hateful.


I have never bred but when I do nothing will go wrong due to lack of knowledge, but we cant control nature. - I am judgemental you are right, because I only care to support ethical breeding. - unlike folk who have recently posted threads, or done posts on how sad they are about X and Y - dogs in rescue and such, and then come on here supporting someone breeding for no 'vaild' reason..

& as for being judge by folk in another part of the world, thats what happens when you post on a forun with UK members, take their advice, be prepared for their opinions also. I dont care where you are, sad fact is to many breeders are breeding for the same reasons. - working with rescue, im sick of it.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

debs78 said:


> She does have a mentor. Just because some may not agree with the advice she is receiving doesn't mean she is a bad person or a byb. Op is clearly trying her best and I don't think criticising and bullying her is at all constructive.


Depends on your own standards, and what makes a BYB for you. I guess your opinion on such is different to some of ours, doesnt make any one of us right - nor does it mean, one cant view their opinion.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

debs78 said:


> Then perhaps you could tell the op exactly why the advice is dangerous and suggest a better way of doing it. It would be a lot more helpful and then you wouldn't seem so downright rude and obstructive.


i think DD has already said Not to supplement calcium, and ive already suggested the op find a good mentor.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have never bred but when I do nothing will go wrong due to lack of knowledge, but we cant control nature. - I am judgemental you are right, because I only care to support ethical breeding. - unlike folk who have recently posted threads, or done posts on how sad they are about X and Y - dogs in rescue and such, and then come on here supporting someone breeding for no 'vaild' reason..
> 
> & as for being judge by folk in another part of the world, thats what happens when you post on a forun with UK members, take their advice, be prepared for their opinions also. I dont care where you are, sad fact is to many breeders are breeding for the same reasons. - working with rescue, im sick of it.


I think it was said on another thread that there are enough stickies on this forum for everyone to be in no doubt as to the type of breeding supported by this forum, ethical and safe. But when someone's bitch is already pregnant and the only comments a poster gets are derisive and rude this achieves nothing but drive the breeder away and thus potentially risk the life of that bitch. Where a pregnancy is a fact the poster should be given as much good advice as possible. That does not mean people are supporting bad breeding but rather the safety of bitches who are pregnant.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

debs78 said:


> Then perhaps you could tell the op exactly why the advice is dangerous and suggest a better way of doing it. It would be a lot more helpful and then you wouldn't seem so downright rude and obstructive.


Two people suggested giving calcium was dangerous.. This is for various reasons, the bitch not producing enough hormones, therefore being a difficult birth, a large increase of the risk of eclampsia, abnormalitiesn in the puppies such as with joints....


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> The fact that you have never bred makes you no more knowledgeable or experienced than me.


Do you know what, we will leave it at that then. I cant be bothered, with a view like that you wont get far, oh and as for experience you can get that first hand without having to have done something yourself


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Two people suggested giving calcium was dangerous.. This is for various reasons, the bitch not producing enough hormones, therefore being a difficult birth, a large increase of the risk of eclampsia, abnormalitiesn in the puppies such as with joints....


Thank you. It was not something I was aware of, but then I'm not a breeder, and I am sure that the OP is now armed with some advice to help her make an informed decision.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Post removed by OP


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> wanting to breed my pet and doing the best I can with the knowledge I have and the advice I've been given.


and this is the problem folk have you have put your dog in a situation you know little about, because you *want* to breed your pet. - Research comes before the choice to breed, not during.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> So you come on here and insult me and roll your eyes at me, and then you just throw your hands in air? What did you expect me to do after instead of politely informing me, you belittle me and treat me like I have no brain?


I didnt insult you, I gave an opinion on types of breeders! - ones im not willing to support..


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

So is what you guys are saying the only thing she is really doing wrong is giving calcium? Then that could have been easily advised politely & explained, I don't really see any complaints about anything else except the fact that she is breeding her dog (she is keeping one herself anyway) & by the sound of it may only have a second which she will have a home ready for! So she is not being selfish or greedy as she isn't getting much out of it except another puppy from HER dog! There are a lot of breeders in this world & a few on the forum, they don't get stick everyday because they breed when there are already loads of dogs in rescues so why have a go at the OP for it?
Plus generally people would like a puppy who will gro wup with them & will turn out the way they want it to with their training & not a dog that could be 1-7 years old or something & don't have as much of a say in their upbringing, both of my dogs are from a breeder, I wouldn't want a dog I didn't know about (that is my opinion & I know it isn't everyones) but some want a pup from a breeder & that's the way the world works, the only problem is when the new owner is irresponsible & grows out of wanting the dog, that's sad & they shouldn't have gotten one in the first place if that would be the case then dogs wouldn't end up flooding rescues!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> The thing is though you're just being down right awful! There is no need! Who gave you the right to upset people who are trying their best. If you were being nice & giving constructive critisicm then it would be okay but you're just being rude & you're making the forum look like a hateful place to new comers which I find disgusting, sorry but it's true. She obviously cares about her dog & I don't see why you need to be so nasty.


i didnt think my post was that bad tbh....but imo when folk breed they really should do it ethically and responsibly and know what theyre doing to minimize the risks, yes i have strong opinions on breeding as i do most things 'animal' and sometimes i come across a bit blunt, but at the end of the day my concern is for the op's bitch, supplementing calcium before birth can cause pre-eclamsia all breeders should know this, so yes i was blunt..

i see you have cockapoos? well ive seen a vile commercial breeder of these back to back breed a bitch who had to have a ceasarian due to this condition, and some folk were actually defending him.....call themselves dog lovers, i dont think so!....sorry for going off tangent but some folk like me are passionate about promoting good breeders and some dont give a to$$ and openly support bad ones....everyones different.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

pomlover87 said:


> That seems to be the only reason I've read as well. Which fyi to all, I haven't given her any of that mixture since I read about the calcium days ago, she doesn't even really like it, so I didn't force her to drink it. Even against what my mentor told me, and even though she fed it to Sadie's mother. I'm willing to waste the money I spent on the ingredients for it to spare her problems, but yet I'm selfish...
> 
> But I still haven't gotten a reply about the calcium in the puppy food. What am I to do with it?


what food are you feeding her? how much meat content?


----------



## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Regarding calcium, when your pregnant bitch is eating a qood quality commercial food, the balance is as it should be. If you increase the food, the calcium ratio goes up in the right proportions. 
The problem is when the balance of calcium is wrong, that's when the production by the parathyroid glands is likely to be affected. 

I let my bitch eat as much as she wanted in the last week, which seemed enormous quantities! She was having a good puppy food, dry, mixed with wet. I avoided any cheesy treats, just in case, even though she sometimes had them before. 

When she was having contractions I gave her a little ice cream, and started giving her a little milk in her water (she wouldn't drink it otherwise). After whelping I started giving her a little cottage cheese, or rice pudding, as a mid-morning snack, and let her eat as much puppy food as she wanted. She is eating like a horse! But she's a little under her pre-pregnant weight now, no matter what she eats, but wormed and with a great appetite. She is a very attentive feeder, her pups are doing very well, there's only three of them!

I have only had the one litter, and I was (and am) terrified of doing something that would be harmful, so I am not experienced by any stretch. I'm just saying that this is what I did - and I have a very happy and contented mum and pups.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

pomlover87 said:


> It's made by the Blue Buffalo Co. and the analysis reads as:
> 
> Crude Protein: 29.0% min
> Crude Fat: 16.0% min
> ...


i dont know the brand but if meat is the 1st named ingredient commercial dog food will be fine

i didnt feed my pups on puppy food they went straight onto the adult food, and they were also given raw minced chicken and bone.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The easiest thing for the op to dispel criticism is to confirm, one, are these dogs AKC registered, if not, why are they breeding, and what health tests are in place for this breed, not a difficult thing to do.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i didnt think my post was that bad tbh....but imo when folk breed they really should do it ethically and responsibly and know what theyre doing to minimize the risks, yes i have strong opinions on breeding as i do most things 'animal' and sometimes i come across a bit blunt, but at the end of the day my concern is for the op's bitch, supplementing calcium before birth can cause pre-eclamsia all breeders should know this, so yes i was blunt..
> 
> i see you have cockapoos? well ive seen a vile commercial breeder of these back to back breed a bitch who had to have a ceasarian due to this condition, and some folk were actually defending him.....call themselves dog lovers, i dont think so!....sorry for going off tangent but some folk like me are passionate about promoting good breeders and some dont give a to$$ and openly support bad ones....everyones different.


I just think you could have been much nicer in the way you went about talking to the OP, I don't think you needed to call her greedy or selfish for breeding her dog without knowing her first. Also I understand what you're saying about wanting the best for the dog, but the best way to go about this is to help the OP giving her kind constructive criticism, if that is really what you want.

& yes I do have 2 cockapoos  I also think I may know which breeder it is that you're talking about (I am also on 2 cockapoo forums - so see a lot os debates on breeders etc). & I also know that many peopl defend them on one of the sites as there are many owners of their pups on there. Personally I don't defend them & never would due to what you have mentioned, I got my two from a very good breeder  He is lovey & really cares for all his dogs & his pups & has a lot of experience with what he does, but everyone has to start somewhere remember


----------



## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

pomlover87 said:


> Well, I actually do take offence to it. She's not full chihuahua, they think she's part rat terrier. She was adopted from a friend, so she wasn't breeding her for money, she gave the puppies away to good homes. And so what if CKC may not be as reputable as AKC? Sounds like people are more interested in what a dog is worth in value and money rather than for the dog itself. It's kind of disgusting, if you ask me. The only people I would sell my dogs to are people who I know would love them and care for them just for them, not what they're worth. If people are more concerned about that, they don't have to worry about my dogs mucking up their perfectly pedigreed pets, because they will never own. If you actually wrote that thinking you weren't going to offend me, you were mistaken.


That dog shouldn't have been bred full stop. If the breeder doesn't know what she is breeding then it shouldn't be bred.

I don't breed pets... My dogs are my pets but the girls that will be bred are shown and place well and good examples of their breeds. I have one girl who is spayed because she isn't registered and her confirmation isn't very good, to someone who doesn't know my breed they would think she is a fab chi.! I personally would never breed a dog that I don't know it's history which effectively is what CKC registry is there is no proof. You mentioned the AKC have stricter criteria or something it's just a case of the parents don't have limited reg on their papers the same as uk endorsements. I am a firm believer in only breeding to better a breed in health, temperament, type and confirmation.

I don't have an issue with pet breeding as long as it's done ethically and the dogs are within breed standard.

Sorry if you were offended but sometimes the truth hurts


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> I have read up on the pomeranian breed itself and I'm aware that pomeranians have easily collapsible tracheas and low blood sugar, which I know can make them go into a coma. I knew that before I even got Sadie, because they can pass out at any time in their life.


Fair enough, you've not confirmed however, if you dogs are AKC registered, or your reasons for breeding.

I'll come clean and my thread is on here for all to read, my bitch is KC registered, I've done many tests, and may or may not decide to breed one litter from her. The thing people get hung up on here is, about ethical breeding, and I can understand why, I hope I'm one of them. People are forever churning out litter after litter, and then you get people, breeding the one off, two off litter, without any real reason, and it just honestly adds to the problem.

The criticism you're getting isn't because you don't care for your girl, it's because you don't possibly care for the wider perspective, the problem with dog's in rescue overall, with them being pts all the time 24/7.


----------



## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

pomlover87 said:


> I have read up on the pomeranian breed itself and I'm aware that pomeranians have easily collapsible tracheas and low blood sugar, which I know can make them go into a coma. I knew that before I even got Sadie, because they can pass out at any time in their life.


Hypoglycaemia is common in all toy breeds however dogs over 2lb in weight tend not to have hypos unless there are underlying health problems, obviously you would know what the signs of a hypo are as they fail fast and die very quickly, also for those that don't know after raising their blood sugars you must follow with some protein or they will crash again.

Poms also suffer from luxating patella which Is hereditary and unless your dogs are scored at 0.0 over the age of 1 I wouldn't breed them. Heart murmers etc and eye testing should also be done. There are CERF health tests in the states that should be done.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

I agree with all you say Sleeping Lion. I think the reason it has got so heated on this thread is the way opinions have been put over. Believing in ethical breeding does not excuse us from helping when someone like the op asks for help. If I thought for a second she was on par with that clay hall numpty she would have got the short end of my tongue too. I think some people just get a bit too militant with the wrong people sometimes. It's good to care for animals but we have to be careful we don't cause harm by driving away those we could genuinely help.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> Well, there is very little pomeranian breeding in my area, if any, so me breeding isn't over-populating the breed. Especially if Sadie only has 2 pups, which fyi, I have considered getting her spayed after this litter anyways. I'm terrified to lose my dog, and all the negativity and hatefulness I've experienced on this forum today has just increased my fear, so thank you. It seems there's no joy in having puppies, it's all about the risks and bad things that can happen. But you know what, bad things don't always happen. I'm aware that they do, but they don't always. There's so much bad in the world that a little good is nice now and then, but it doesn't seem like it's possible for people to be optimistic and supportive anymore, just callous and demeaning. But that's ok, because I live life outside of this forum and I can try to be optimistic within myself, even if I'm alone in it. I could understand you all chopping me up if I was being completely ignorant and irresponsible, but I made one mistake and I'm sorry. I'm sorry my dog's not AKC and not worth living and having babies in this world because of it. But I love her, and that's all that matters.


Well really, I may get slated for this, but this is what really makes me cross. Please, take a step back, these are not your babies, she is not having your babies, she is a dog, and you chose to allow her to have puppies. Doing so, puts her life at risk, this is something any breeder accepts, when they look at a breeding programme. The reason I asked if your girl was AKC registered, was to see if there were any breeding programme in place, it appears not, so why?



debs78 said:


> I agree with all you say Sleeping Lion. I think the reason it has got so heated on this thread is the way opinions have been put over. Believing in ethical breeding does not excuse us from helping when someone like the op asks for help. If I thought for a second she was on par with that clay hall numpty she would have got the short end of my tongue too. I think some people just get a bit too militant with the wrong people sometimes. It's good to care for animals but we have to be careful we don't cause harm by driving away those we could genuinely help.


You may hate me for my latest post, but I'm sorry, they haven't any reason to put their bitch at risk, help is out there for them, they just need to look at Tanya1989's website, or google Wylanbriar, both of which have fabulous downlodable aids for whelping, but I'm sorry, I'm through asking questions on this thread, I've heard enough.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear people have upset you so much :/ I hope you're okay & i'm sure you'll do just great for your dog because you genuinely love her  Some people breed their dogs for money & don't care what happens to their dog in the process, that's where problems start. & also i'm not sure why it's so bad that the dogs are with CKC instead of AKC or whatever it is. My dogs are cross breeds & therefore can't be registered but it doens't mean I couldn't breed with them if I wanted to (I don't btw, one is already spayed & the other will be when she's old enough) but it doesn't mean I couldn't if i'd chosen to...


----------



## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

Ok I wasn't going to post but seriously you are breeding her because you don't want to be left with nothing to remember her by. My goldie is just a year old and already I have a million happy memories of things we've done and amusing things he does. Yeah eventually I'd love another pup but I wouldn't dream of breeding him. In my eyes he's a perfect golden retriever. In someone who knows the breed well eyes he probably isn't. 

Aren't memories enough without putting her through this?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> I just think you could have been much nicer in the way you went about talking to the OP, I don't think you needed to call her greedy or selfish for breeding her dog without knowing her first. Also I understand what you're saying about wanting the best for the dog, but the best way to go about this is to help the OP giving her kind constructive criticism, if that is really what you want.
> 
> & yes I do have 2 cockapoos  I also think I may know which breeder it is that you're talking about (I am also on 2 cockapoo forums - so see a lot os debates on breeders etc). & I also know that many peopl defend them on one of the sites as there are many owners of their pups on there. Personally I don't defend them & never would due to what you have mentioned, I got my two from a very good breeder  He is lovey & really cares for all his dogs & his pups & has a lot of experience with what he does, but everyone has to start somewhere remember


yes i saw it on a cockapoo forum, he'd also bred 10 litters at once...disgusting!!..someone like that whoi churns out loads of pups can gain a lot of experience...just because theyve curned out a lot of litters....but thats not a good breeder, not saying your breeders like this by the way, first time breeders have mentors within the breed theyre passionate about, i would never have just gone and 'bred' my bitch. Infact i never intended to breed but i started showing her and she was a nice example of the breed, her breeder was behind me all the way and lifted endorsements once she was health tested...this is how a lot of good breeders start,....and good breeders dont breed often either and they only do when they want to keep something for themselves, that dosent always work out but thats their aim, breeders who breed commercially are the pits imo.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

If we all took a litter from each of our dogs because we are going to lose them at one point each dog would be bred, and then its daughter and so on. Thats a worrying thought, people have commented on me 'judging' and being rude. But there you have it, this dog is being bred for self gain, nothing more nothing less. FACT!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Is it a breeder you're willing to name on here as a good example of a cross breeder Lauraispops? I'm sure Shirley and Sarah would be interested if so??


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> yes i saw it on a cockapoo forum, he'd also bred 10 litters at once...disgusting!!..someone like that whoi churns out loads of pups can gain a lot of experience...just because theyve curned out a lot of litters....but thats not a good breeder, not saying your breeders like this by the way, first time breeders have mentors within the breed theyre passionate about, i would never have just gone and 'bred' my bitch. Infact i never intended to breed but i started showing her and she was a nice example of the breed, her breeder was behind me all the way and lifted endorsements once she was health tested...this is how a lot of good breeders start,....and good breeders dont breed often either and they only do when they want to keep something for themselves, that dosent always work out but thats their aim, breeders who breed commercially are the pits imo.


It is the same breeder then haha, so I know what you mean & I also know that just because they have bred that much & have experience it doesn't mean they are 'good' breeders. My breeder absolutely loved Izzie when we went to pick up Poppy  Said he was proud she was one of his! I think that's lovely & he really does care  Although he is licensed so you may class him as commercial but he never has too many litters to take care of & he is always very helpful & kind before, during & after pups  I think that's what makes a good breeder IMO.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Is it a breeder you're willing to name on here as a good example of a cross breeder Lauraispops? I'm sure Shirley and Sarah would be interested if so??


Hi  Yes I would be willing to name him, Sarah & Shirley know me already from other forums anyway so probably know who I got them from, Anzil cockapoos (Liverpool) he's called Anthony, I would recommend to anyone who asked me for an opinion, he's always been very good with us & loves all his dogs & pups as pets


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

pomlover87 said:


> That's ok, I don't know any of you, and you don't know me. I feel better in knowing I'm not the only one on this forum getting roasted, as I've read other posts. If you think that wanting a puppy from a dog you love is selfish, then why do you even own dogs? Is it not for your selfishness of wanting companionship? I'm not going to argue anymore. I won't be posting on this forum ever again because I will never win on this issue, and I will never say the right thing. But all I know is I've been truthful. I'm removing all my posts and pictures, because I'm not coming back here, flame me if you wish, or continue to do so. If the some of you that have been kind want pictures, you can private message me and I'll send you one, but I won't be posting it. I can't take being slammed anymore.


So you're ignoring everyone you choose to for your own benefit, not your girl's benefit?

I own dogs because I love their company. I own an entire bitch, who I may choose to breed from, I own a spayed bitch, who is absolutely fabulous, and I own a puppy, who I may choose to breed from should she prove worthwhile and her health test results prove good enough. Out of the two so far, I've probably spent just under £1k health testing, and may go ahead with one litter after finding a dog that matches my bitch, and I'll have a five hour round travel for that. So,. feel superior if you will, but some of us do an awful lot more planning, and we dont just breed for our own desires.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Hi  Yes I would be willing to name him, Sarah & Shirley know me already from other forums anyway so probably know who I got them from, Anzil cockapoos (Liverpool) he's called Anthony, I would recommend to anyone who asked me for an opinion, he's always been very good with us & loves all his dogs & pups as pets


It doesn't begin with a J does it? If so, I'm afraid I think they are no better than puppy farmers in disguise.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It doesn't begin with a J does it? If so, I'm afraid I think they are no better than puppy farmers in disguise.


The ones with the 'J' name are the ones I said I don't support either, mine are from Anzil's.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> It is the same breeder then haha, so I know what you mean & I also know that just because they have bred that much & have experience it doesn't mean they are 'good' breeders. My breeder absolutely loved Izzie when we went to pick up Poppy  Said he was proud she was one of his! I think that's lovely & he really does care  Although he is licensed so you may class him as commercial but he never has too many litters to take care of & he is always very helpful & kind before, during & after pups  I think that's what makes a good breeder IMO.


lol hes pretty well known then:arf:

i dare say some commercial breeders are better than others, but ,no, to me they can never be ethical because everything else aside even their motive for breeding is so wrong, dogs should never be a cash crop...sorry Laura but its jmho.


----------



## pomlover87 (Nov 12, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So you're ignoring everyone you choose to for your own benefit, not your girl's benefit?
> 
> I own dogs because I love their company. I own an entire bitch, who I may choose to breed from, I own a spayed bitch, who is absolutely fabulous, and I own a puppy, who I may choose to breed from should she prove worthwhile and her health test results prove good enough. Out of the two so far, I've probably spent just under £1k health testing, and may go ahead with one litter after finding a dog that matches my bitch, and I'll have a five hour round travel for that. So,. feel superior if you will, but some of us do an awful lot more planning, and we dont just breed for our own desires.


It's not about feeling superior, actually, you all have made me feel less than inferior. None of you have said anything to actually benefit me other than to put me down for being a bad human being. So I'm not leaving because I'm better than you, I'm leaving because I'm letting you win and trying to retain a little of my dignity. Feel accomplished that you have made your point about being much more responsible about breeding dogs and bettering life for dogs, but know that you've deeply hurt a fellow human being, and this goes for all who've made rude and harsh comments today. I'm done.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> lol hes pretty well known then:arf:
> 
> i dare say some commercial breeders are better than others, but ,no, to me they can never be ethical because everything else aside even their motive for breeding is so wrong, dogs should never be a cash crop...sorry Laura but its jmho.


Well that's your opinion & you are entitled to it, but at least he does the relevant health tests & cares  Some hobby breeders don't, some do, so not all of them are good either, depends what you want from a breeder & a pup as to who you buy from. Everyone who i've spoken to who have gotten pups from him have been very pleased & say the same as me, so people can thinnk what they want about who they want, although you don't know until you meet/speak to them.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> The ones with the 'J' name are the ones I said I don't support either, mine are from Anzil's.


Oh dear, just had a peek at their website, they only test their bitches for gPRA, so really cutting cocrners I'm afraid 



pomlover87 said:


> It's not about feeling superior, actually, you all have made me feel less than inferior. None of you have said anything to actually benefit me other than to put me down for being a bad human being. So I'm not leaving because I'm better than you, I'm leaving because I'm letting you win and trying to retain a little of my dignity. Feel accomplished that you have made your point about being much more responsible about breeding dogs and bettering life for dogs, but know that you've deeply hurt a fellow human being, and this goes for all who've made rude and harsh comments today. I'm done.


So after your great speech about us all being superior, you've decided to stay on to tell us we're still all superior. Honestly, I really wash my hands, your girl deserves better!


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Well that's your opinion & you are entitled to it, but at least he does the relevant health tests & cares  Some hobby breeders don't, some do, so not all of them are good either, depends what you want from a breeder & a pup as to who you buy from. Everyone who i've spoken to who have gotten pups from him have been very pleased & say the same as me, so people can thinnk what they want about who they want, although you don't know until you meet/speak to them.


No hip scores. No purpose for breeding other than money/cute fuzzy puppies.
No aim to breed towards. I can't see any pedigree names of their poodles etc. So it's very hard to trace genetic issues that may be in those lines. Let's face it, anyone willing to sell a poodle puppy to a crossbreeder doesn't have the welfare of their own breed at heart. Who knows what's lurking.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Holy ****!!!!! £800 for a cross!!!!!!


Good heavens! *Faints*


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

God it's amazing how people are so snobby when it comes to cross breeds! Get over it for gods sake, why can't breeders buy poodles to breed with cocker spaniels INSTEAD of poodles?! I hate people who even think like that, sorry but it's just pedigree snobbery 

& tell me exactly all the health tests these poodles & cocker spaniels should have then please? You're obviously all such experts & there must be loads of compulsory tests?

Can you tell me what purpose there is to breed dogs if it isn't to make puppies that people will buy?! I'm sorry but there aren't many other reasons


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Well that's your opinion & you are entitled to it, but at least he does the relevant health tests & cares  Some hobby breeders don't, some do, so not all of them are good either, depends what you want from a breeder & a pup as to who you buy from. Everyone who i've spoken to who have gotten pups from him have been very pleased & say the same as me, so people can thinnk what they want about who they want, although you don't know until you meet/speak to them.


yes i am as you are yours

i bet the majority of hobby breeders are pants Laura lol....i know lots of breeders and i personally could only support someone who i believe does everything right by their dogs and who only breeds the occasional litter...and No commercial breeder ever does that im afraid, as i said i know some will be far better than others, but i personally wouldnt touch any with a barge pole.

.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

& they're worth every penny  after all a dog is for life right?
Not like we're guna pay for them & send them to a rescue for that much money, could just save your money in the first place. I don't see that many being put into rescues in the UK either so there must be something right with them?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

to the OP, would you like me to just post what you pm'd me, wow, what a lovely person you are!


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> yes i am as you are yours
> 
> i bet the majority of hobby breeders are pants Laura lol....i know lots of breeders and i personally could only support someone who i believe does everything right by their dogs and who only breeds the occasional litter...and No commercial breeder ever does that im afraid, as i said i know some will be far better than others, but i personally wouldnt touch any with a barge pole.
> 
> .


That's fair enough, as I said each to their own  Personally i'd just feel more comfortable in that commercial breeders have more experience that most hobbybreeders & there are so many adverts for cockapoos for sale that I wouldn't know where to start with them. He's a really nice guy, very genuine & very helpful, so we felt that he was a good breeder & so far our pups are brill so we're happy with our choice


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Can you tell me what purpose there is to breed dogs if it isn't to make puppies that people will buy?! I'm sorry but there aren't many other reasons


ermm jeez'us! - THERE are many vaild reasons to breed a litter and the purpose behind such, selling is never a factor. - Its about breeding puppies to successed in a certain area. (many areas there are too!)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

What a lovely pm from the OP:

You really are a horrible person and I'm hoping you're proud of yourself, which I'm sure you are. You've accomplished nothing but to make yourself sound like a pompous ass know it all who likes putting others down because they're not as intelligent as you, and never will be. Good day

I'm sure this thread will be locked, but I do hope it serves as a lesson to others!


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Pleas explain then? What reason dogs are actually bred by anyone (as i'm sure the breeder doesn't keep them all & have a house full of dogs?)


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Can you tell me what purpose there is to breed dogs if it isn't to make puppies that people will buy?! I'm sorry but there aren't many other reasons


i could never put any of my bitches through a pregnancy to make puppies for someone else

good breeders breed for themselves for showing or working, they try to improve on the dogs they have and breed good representatives of the breed.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Pleas explain then? What reason dogs are actually bred by anyone (as i'm sure the breeder doesn't keep them all & have a house full of dogs?)


Puppies are bred to assist humans, let that be with police men or out in the feilds, for the betterment of a breed/line, bred to be trained as dogs for disabled, or a number of activies that you can compete in with dogs. - Infact the list is actually endless.


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

LauraIzPops said:


> Can you tell me what purpose there is to breed dogs if it isn't to make puppies that people will buy?! I'm sorry but there aren't many other reasons


to better their lines , further the breeds , pups to keep back for themselves


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Pleas explain then? What reason dogs are actually bred by anyone (as i'm sure the breeder doesn't keep them all & have a house full of dogs?)


I've spent over five years researching one litter, and spent over £1k in health tests, to breed ONE pup to run on for myself, and then I read of folk breeding ten, twelve cross breed litters, and charging more than I would for a fullly health tested pup, and yet folk are willing to pay this for a cross breed with no justification, and breeders are willing to sell them, because they can get the cash.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Pleas explain then? What reason dogs are actually bred by anyone (as i'm sure the breeder doesn't keep them all & have a house full of dogs?)


*Show breeders* - breed to further their lines, make improvements on their current dogs. Working towards dogs that fit the breed standard perfectly. This is conformation wise, temperament wise, health wise. Don't get me wrong, not all show breeders health test (and those should be avoided) - but the ones that truly have their breed at heart do everything right and do not fill up rescue shelters with their dogs. Bear in mind the breed standard is what makes a dog _fit for function_ Breeds exist for a reason, all having different jobs, they require a certain conformation, structure, to be able to do that job.

*Working line breeders* - also breed to further their lines. Depending on the breed there can be a split between working and show lines, but working lines are breeding towards a better working dog, taking conformation less into account. Same story as show breeders health wise, a lot health test, a lot don't.

*Pet breeders* - don't have any aims except fancying a litter, or thinking it's good for their bitch, wanting to make a bit of money back, or just wanting cute puppies. The dogs generally don't fit the breed standard and couldn't do what they were originally bred to do. They're a BAD example of the breed and should not be bred or sold as their specific breed.
Some health test, some don't - but health testing alone is not an excuse to breed your dog. Some people do it and genuinly love their dogs, but they're so blinded by their own love for their dogs that they can't or don't see what they're doing to the breed as a whole.

P.S - Show breeders have to pay petrol to and from shows, hotels, entry fees, stud fees, petrol and hotel to visit stud. In working breeds like my own the dogs are (or some are) Schutzhund qualified, which means they need to train (time), get to and and from training etc. - this is what justifies the price they charge. Pet breeders cannot say this.
Working line breeders also work their dogs and take a lot of time training their dogs up - justifying the price.

Another edit: My pup was not £800, came from fantastic lines, proven great examples of the breed both in the conformation ring and have Schutzhund qualifications. Breeder travelled to Germany and back for the mating. I can't see how £800 for pet bred crossbreeds is justified? The motive here is CLEARLY money.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Pleas explain then? What reason dogs are actually bred by anyone (as i'm sure the breeder doesn't keep them all & have a house full of dogs?)


i have only bred one litter in 11 yrs and kept 3 out of the 4 puppies, like other breeders i associate with i bred for myself, ... i just cant get my head around those who put their bitches through a pregnancy for someone elses benefit...just for the cash:confused1:.

ive got 4 unspayed bitches here....i could make a fortune! except im never breeding again.

.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Noushka, Rhuna's breeder has bred 2 litters in 20 years, I know another KC reputeable breeder of another breed, 2 litters in 22 years! Obviously I deserved that pm 

Spelling has gone to pot btw


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Noushka, Rhuna's breeder has bred 2 litters in 20 years, I know another KC reputeable breeder of another breed, 2 litters in 22 years! Obviously I deserved that pm
> 
> Spelling has gone to pot btw


Too much wine? 

Put that alcohol down, you'll damage those precious brain cells


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Too much wine?
> 
> Put that alcohol down, you'll damage those precious brain cells


Geez, I'm chuckling away, I'm obviously such a worthy adversary!! I mean, my brain cells say it all!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Noushka, Rhuna's breeder has breed 2 litters in 20 years, I know another KC reputeable breeder of another breed, 2 litters in 22 years! Obviously I deserved that pm


yeah i know breeders just like these SL, and take no notice of the pm eveyone who know you knows your ethics are spot on!.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Okay guys you're trying to prove your point, except have you not noticed, but if people didn't breed for pets then there wouldn't be many dog owners in the world would there? Because I don't want a dog to go to shows or a dog to work, I want a pet! Most people on the forum have pets, & if people didn't breed them looks like no one would ever have any by your justifications as breeders breed for themselves for show/work & don't sell them. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me :S

Anyway if people are evenn starting to slate breeding full stop & breeding pet dogs then I don't even know why i'm bothering having this conversation, it's pointless on a forum where most people have pet dogs :/ Whatever.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Okay guys you're trying to prove your point, except have you not noticed, but if people didn't breed for pets then there wouldn't be many dog owners in the world would there? Because I don't want a dog to go to shows or a dog to work, I want a pet! Most people on the forum have pets, & if people didn't breed them looks like no one would ever have any by your justifications as breeders breed for themselves for show/work & don't sell them. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me :S
> 
> Anyway if people are evenn starting to slate breeding full stop & breeding pet dogs then I don't even know why i'm bothering having this conversation, it's pointless on a forum where most people have pet dogs :/ Whatever.


I think you're missing the point. The breeders don't keep every puppy, although on the odd occasion there will be an outstanding litter and the breeder will run a few on until they see which has the best characteristics, then sell the others.
The litter my boy came from was a litter of 7, the breeder kept 3 for herself. I think she has since decided which male she wanted out of the 2, and is finally keeping 1 male and 1 female.

The puppies do go to pet homes, but they do all these things to prove that they are good examples of the breed. If you want a dog of a certain breed, you obviously like the characteristics - so why would you want a dog that doesn't have those characteristics?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Okay guys you're trying to prove your point, except have you not noticed, but if people didn't breed for pets then there wouldn't be many dog owners in the world would there? Because I don't want a dog to go to shows or a dog to work, I want a pet! Most people on the forum have pets, & if people didn't breed them looks like no one would ever have any by your justifications as breeders breed for themselves for show/work & don't sell them. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me :S
> 
> Anyway if people are evenn starting to slate breeding full stop & breeding pet dogs then I don't even know why i'm bothering having this conversation, it's pointless on a forum where most people have pet dogs :/ Whatever.


all my dogs are 1st and foremost pets Laura, the dogs i bought were from show breeders but i bought them as pets, breeders dont keep the whole litter.....usually:arf:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Okay guys you're trying to prove your point, except have you not noticed, but if people didn't breed for pets then there wouldn't be many dog owners in the world would there? Because I don't want a dog to go to shows or a dog to work, I want a pet! Most people on the forum have pets, & if people didn't breed them looks like no one would ever have any by your justifications as breeders breed for themselves for show/work & don't sell them. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me :S
> 
> Anyway if people are evenn starting to slate breeding full stop & breeding pet dogs then I don't even know why i'm bothering having this conversation, it's pointless on a forum where most people have pet dogs :/ Whatever.


So despite me receiving a nasty pm, you're still willing to accept this breeder as ok?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So despite me receiving a nasty pm, you're still willing to accept this breeder as ok?


omg you got a nasty pm off lauras dogs breeder?:scared: very dodgy!!!!

i thought you meant the op of this thread


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> omg you got a nasty pm off lauras dogs breeder?:scared: very dodgy!!!!
> 
> i thought you meant the op of this thread


No, it is the op of this thread, not very polite, not very secretive, and here again for all to read:

You really are a horrible person and I'm hoping you're proud of yourself, which I'm sure you are. You've accomplished nothing but to make yourself sound like a pompous ass know it all who likes putting others down because they're not as intelligent as you, and never will be. Good day


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So despite me receiving a nasty pm, you're still willing to accept this breeder as ok?


I don't think the PM has much to do with it. I'm against this sort of breeding too. But I think the OP was genuinly hurt and just doesn't understand why she can't breed from her girl. We did all jump down her throat a bit.

To the OP - the "piece of paper" that you think is worthless. It is a record of ancestry, used to trace health issues amongst other things.

The fact your dog is registered with another body basically means it's much easier to falsify papers - you wouldn't know if it came from a brother-sister mating or not. Obviously the AKC is not foolproof but it is a much better guarantee than CKC.

People work very hard to produce dogs that fit the breed standard, if people didn't care we would very quickly lose all breeds and return to mongrel type. Not many people want this, we're all attached to our own breeds and wouldn't want to be without ours.

Pet bred dogs look and act nothing like they should, some pedigrees look like crosses because they haven't selected studs carefully. 
If you look in rescues it is these dogs needing homes, not the carefully bred ones.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So despite me receiving a nasty pm, you're still willing to accept this breeder as ok?


Yes what do you mean you got a pm from the breeder? My breeder?
Or the OP of the thread? :S

& that's what I mean though, dogs will go to homes as pets mainly, that's why there are so many around, so why does it matter if they are bred for that in the first place? If they aren't wanted to work or show I doubt that it a problem, especially when many breeders do relevant health tests anyway so the dogs should physically be fine, i just don't understad your points of view on this :S


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shrap said:


> I don't think the PM has much to do with it. I'm against this sort of breeding too. But I think the OP was genuinly hurt and just doesn't understand why she can't breed from her girl. We did all jump down her throat a bit.
> 
> To the OP - the "piece of paper" that you think is worthless. It is a record of ancestry, used to trace health issues amongst other things.
> 
> ...





LauraIzPops said:


> Yes what do you mean you got a pm from the breeder? My breeder?
> Or the OP of the thread? :S
> 
> & that's what I mean though, dogs will go to homes as pets mainly, that's why there are so many around, so why does it matter if they are bred for that in the first place? If they aren't wanted to work or show I doubt that it a problem, especially when many breeders do relevant health tests anyway so the dogs should physically be fine, i just don't understad your points of view on this :S


No, I mean this, received via pm, if someone cant say something publicy then why say anything?

You really are a horrible person and I'm hoping you're proud of yourself, which I'm sure you are. You've accomplished nothing but to make yourself sound like a pompous ass know it all who likes putting others down because they're not as intelligent as you, and never will be. Good day


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, it is the op of this thread, not very polite, not very secretive, and here again for all to read:
> 
> You really are a horrible person and I'm hoping you're proud of yourself, which I'm sure you are. You've accomplished nothing but to make yourself sound like a pompous ass know it all who likes putting others down because they're not as intelligent as you, and never will be. Good day


oops i think ive had a little too much of the vino aswell...sorry Lauras breeder

well that pms rather rude  blimey


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sorry was already writing when you posted, I think she was just genuinely upset by the way everyone spoke to her, I think everyone could have been more polite when criticising, especially if you wanted to help the dog :/

Also I was trying to stand up for my own breeder which everyone seems to be slating now & i'm not sure why :S He uses show cocker spaniels & miniature poodles, just not sure why breeding so people can have pets is such a problem? Lots of people want pet dogs & someone has to provide them, that's all i'm saying.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> God it's amazing how people are so snobby when it comes to cross breeds! Get over it for gods sake, why can't breeders buy poodles to breed with cocker spaniels INSTEAD of poodles?! I hate people who even think like that, sorry but it's just pedigree snobbery


 People are NOT snobby when it comes to cross-breeds - dogs are dogs are dogs and we love them all whether out of two Crufts Champions or two pets down the road. It's not the dogs we have an issue with, it's predominantly many of the half-wits who breed them 

My own views on the subject are well documented - but (I Hope) I've helped certain people in trying to convey the right message because I am not naive enough to believe that cross-breeding is going to stop any time soon - so better to try and educate people to buy responsibly - if necessary forcing breeders hands to realise that if they are going to sell the pups they breed, then they have no option but to do it properly.

And now it is known that cross-breeds and their health-results can be recorded on the KC database through their activity register, there even exists the capacity to start monitoring what is happening with these crosses healthwise.

The fundamental message is identical whether breeding a Labrador, a Goldie, or thingamybobwhatchamacalit - no disrespect to any cross-breed owners - crosses such as Labradoodle, Goldendoodle and Cockapoo are pretty well established and recognisable by their names - but of late, our local paper has become an increasing area of ridicule for stupid names for what are not just straight forward crosses - but what were, when I was growing up, good old fashioned mongrels - if it wasn't so sad it would be absolutely hilarious.

===================================

As for the OP - why when people start challenging them is that interpreted as others being superior?

No-one is perfect - we all make mistakes - I don't know the systems in the US well enough to comment - but this thread does prove that even tightening of registries (as many would like to see for the KC) doesn't stop breeders with unregistered dogs.

When you breed, there is no guarantee you will get a 'clone' of your existing dog - I've got three generations of my own dogs here - chalk and cheese doesn't come close.



LauraIzPops said:


> & tell me exactly all the health tests these poodles & cocker spaniels should have then please? You're obviously all such experts & there must be loads of compulsory tests?


You own them and don't know ?  less than five minutes on Google threw up the following as a starter for ten.


Annual eye tests
Hipscoring 
DNA test for PRA 
DNA test for Familial Nephropathy for Cockers
SA Test (Sebaceous Adenitis) bi-annual for Poodles
Von Willebrands (vWD) testing is also recommended for Poodles
Smaller Poodles also have an increased risk of luxating patella



LauraIzPops said:


> Can you tell me what purpose there is to breed dogs if it isn't to make puppies that people will buy?! I'm sorry but there aren't many other reasons


To develop and improve your own breeding lines, often for show / work purposes, with some breeders regularly having pups going into assistance dog programmes.

The difference between someone who loves their dog and thinks they would be a good breeder, and actually being a good breeder are HUGE.

To say I want to breed to "keep a little piece" of their bitch is mad - it's quite feasible that the breeder can lose both the bitch and the pups during whelping - then there is nothing left at all, and a bitch robbed of the next 10 years plus of her life 

If someone isn't prepared to put the research in before breeding their bitch, and conduct the necessary health tests to guarantee the pups the best possible start in life and minimise the risk of them developing certain health-conditions (and now actually prevent some completely) - it has to raise the question as to what other corners they will be cutting.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Sorry was already writing when you posted, I think she was just genuinely upset by the way everyone spoke to her, I think everyone could have been more polite when criticising, especially if you wanted to help the dog :/
> 
> Also I was trying to stand up for my own breeder which everyone seems to be slating now & i'm not sure why :S He uses show cocker spaniels & miniature poodles, just not sure why breeding so people can have pets is such a problem? Lots of people want pet dogs & someone has to provide them, that's all i'm saying.


Yes, show and working breeders provide them. True to the breed.

It's not fair to call a dog a cocker spaniel or a German Shepherd when it is not fit to do the job it was originally bred to do.

If you can't cope with some of the traits a breed offers, find a different breed. It's incredibly selfish to change the way a breed is just so you can have a pet. There are plenty of breeds out there with different temperaments to suit different lifestyles.

Nobody should be breeding AWAY from the breed standard, as I said, eventually we'll end up in a world of mongrels if that were to be accepted. There are plenty of them in rescue if you want one! Puppies too.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

swarthy said:


> People are NOT snobby when it comes to cross-breeds - dogs are dogs are dogs and we love them all whether out of two Crufts Champions or two pets down the road. It's not the dogs we have an issue with, it's predominantly many of the half-wits who breed them
> 
> My own views on the subject are well documented - but (I Hope) I've helped certain people in trying to convey the right message because I am not naive enough to believe that cross-breeding is going to stop any time soon - so better to try and educate people to buy responsibly - if necessary forcing breeders hands to realise that if they are going to sell the pups they breed, then they have no option but to do it properly.
> 
> ...


How much does rep have to be spread before I can rep you for this!?


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Shrap said:


> If you can't cope with some of the traits a breed offers, find a different breed. It's incredibly selfish to change the way a breed is just so you can have a pet. There are plenty of breeds out there with different temperaments to suit different lifestyles.
> 
> Nobody should be breeding AWAY from the breed standard, as I said, eventually we'll end up in a world of mongrels if that were to be accepted. There are plenty of them in rescue if you want one! Puppies too.


I don't want a rescue dog! There are barely any cockapoos in rescues in the UK anyway, why can't people breed crossbreeds? It's not that I don't want traits of a dog, but I have two dogs combined into one which makes a different dog & my dogs are amazing & were bred for temperment Which is good if it's a pet as it is less likely to be aggressive towards other dogs & people (especially important for children). If you are breeding purely for showing/working then you many not be breeding for temperment which may not fit family life. I am happy with my breed of dog & do ot intend to look for a different breed or look into rescues for a breed I wouldn't want :S

I think this forum seems pretty obsessed with rescue dogs, so many people try to talk others into getting a rescue generally instead of a puppy & it's their choice :S I wouldn't be able to find a really good tempered cockapoo in a rescue over here very easily I don't think...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> I don't want a rescue dog! There are barely any cockapoos in rescues in the UK anyway, why can't people breed crossbreeds? It's not that I don't want traits of a dog, but I have two dogs combined into one which makes a different dog & my dogs are amazing & were bred for temperment Which is good if it's a pet as it is less likely to be aggressive towards other dogs & people (especially important for children). If you are breeding purely for showing/working then you many not be breeding for temperment which may not fit family life. I am happy with my breed of dog & do ot intend to look for a different breed or look into rescues for a breed I wouldn't want :S
> 
> I think this forum seems pretty obsessed with rescue dogs, so many people try to talk others into getting a rescue generally instead of a puppy & it's their choice :S I wouldn't be able to find a really good tempered cockapoo in a rescue over here very easily I don't think...


Wait a while, the way it's going, there surely must be every other breed


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Go on then I dare you,

Who would like me to be happy about pups from this mating?


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wait a while, the way it's going, there surely must be every other breed


I already have two now anyway & hopefully they should have over 10 years in them, so I shouldn't need one til I move out from my parents house at least, not sure when that'll be, but don't need another dog til then anyway as my parents will keep these two at their house I presume. I hope they aren't over bred so that they start being put into rescues all the time as well, but everyone who I know with cockapoos are extremely happy with them, so hopefully people will keep researching the breed before committing


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Go on then I dare you,
> 
> Who would like me to be happy about pups from this mating?


Who's that aimed at? & what do you mean by it? :S


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> *I* don't *want* a rescue dog! There are barely any cockapoos in rescues in the UK anyway, why can't people breed crossbreeds? It's not that I don't want traits of a dog, but I have two dogs combined into one which makes a different dog & my dogs are amazing & were bred for temperment Which is good if it's a pet as it is *less likely to be aggressive* towards other dogs & people (especially important for children). If you are breeding purely for *showing/working then you many not be breeding for temperment which may not fit family life*. I am happy with my breed of dog & do ot intend to look for a different breed or look into rescues for a breed I wouldn't want :S
> 
> I think this forum seems pretty obsessed with rescue dogs, so many people try to talk others into getting a rescue generally instead of a puppy & it's their choice :S I wouldn't be able to find a really good tempered cockapoo in a rescue over here very easily I don't think...


Show dogs are required to be gone over, have their mouths checked by complete strangers. Go round a ring in a place with lots of crowds, noise, other dogs. Working dogs have the temperament require for THIER PURPOSE. If the breed of dog you are after does not have a temperament befitting family life. Don't get one. Don't support unethical breeders just because "you want".

It is almost always pet bred dogs that have temperament issues - fear aggression etc.

This is what annoys me so much. "Oh she's just got such a fabulous temperament" - how do you know? She has a nice temperament for you, but it may not fit the breed. This is what is wrong in my own breed. People breed GSDs because she's just so soft/lovely. It's a very dangerous business, breeding a reactive breed that has not been courage tested. So many nervy dogs.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> I don't want a rescue dog! There are barely any cockapoos in rescues in the UK anyway, why can't people breed crossbreeds? It's not that I don't want traits of a dog, but I have two dogs combined into one which makes a different dog & my dogs are amazing & were bred for temperment Which is good if it's a pet as it is less likely to be aggressive towards other dogs & people (especially important for children). If you are breeding purely for showing/working then you many not be breeding for temperment which may not fit family life. I am happy with my breed of dog & do ot intend to look for a different breed or look into rescues for a breed I wouldn't want :S
> 
> I think this forum seems pretty obsessed with rescue dogs, so many people try to talk others into getting a rescue generally instead of a puppy & it's their choice :S I wouldn't be able to find a really good tempered cockapoo in a rescue over here very easily I don't think...


no decent breeder of any breed would ever breed a dog with a poor temperament...ever.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> I already have two now anyway & hopefully they should have over 10 years in them, so I shouldn't need one til I move out from my parents house at least, not sure when that'll be, but don't need another dog til then anyway as my parents will keep these two at their house I presume. I hope they aren't over bred so that they start being put into rescues all the time as well, but everyone who I know with cockapoos are extremely happy with them, so hopefully people will keep researching the breed before committing


It's a cross breed not a breed, your hopes are a weensy bit misled.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's a cross breed not a breed, your hopes are a weensy bit misled.


A cross breed with no set temperament as well. Cockapoos don't have a list of traits, it's pot luck what temperament you get out of the 2 breeds.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> & that's what I mean though, dogs will go to homes as pets mainly, that's why there are so many around, so why does it matter if they are bred for that in the first place? If they aren't wanted to work or show I doubt that it a problem, especially when many breeders do relevant health tests anyway so the dogs should physically be fine, i just don't understad your points of view on this :S


have you thought what kind of life the breeding dogs have? or how many litters commercial breeders take from their bitches?

when i choose a breeder i expect their dogs to be kept they way the best cared for pets are kept, i could never just think about the end product.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

I know it's a cross breed, I was been lazy  & i'm very happy with a cross breed even though others slate that they are bred, I really couldn't care less if people prefer pedigrees because I wouldn't change my dogs & I love them


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> have you thought what kind of life his breeding bitches have? or how many litters commercial breeders take from them?
> 
> when i choose a breeder i expect their dogs to be kept they way the best cared for pets are kept, i could never just think about the end product.


They seem happy enough to me  He has land so they can exercise & he lets them in his house (which is proved as it smells very strongly of dogs - which is obviously the cocker spaniels smell) & i'm not sure exactly how many litters they have but he doesn't over breed them & retires them when they need to be (they are family pets so if he retires them he doesn't sell them on he will give them to friends & family if he has to unlike many who put them into rescues once they've fed their purpose). So not all larger breeders are terrible like you are trying to portray.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> I know it's a cross breed, I was been lazy  & i'm very happy with a cross breed even though others slate that they are bred, I really couldn't care less if people prefer pedigrees because I wouldn't change my dogs & I love them


i love crossbreeds...but i hate to see animals exploited...and all and sundry are churning them out, you only have to look in the free-ads.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> They seem happy enough to me  He has land so they can exercise & he lets them in his house (which is proved as it smells very strongly of dogs - which is obviously the cocker spaniels smell) & i'm not sure exactly how many litters they have but he doesn't over breed them & retires them when they need to be (they are family pets so if he retires them he doesn't sell them on he will give them to friends & family if he has to unlike many who put them into rescues once they've fed their purpose). So not all larger breeders are terrible like you are trying to portray.


Even charging £800 for largely untested dogs?


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i love crossbreeds...but i hate to see animals exploited...and all and sundry are churning them out, you only have to look in the free-ads.


I understand that, there are so many different ypes & different breeders advertising, that why we went for a breeder who had more experience as we thought they would be more knowledgeable & he is very genuine. We did our research & are very happy with our choice, plus cockapoos have been bred since the 1950s in America so they're not a new cross breed just for the money.


----------



## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> I understand that, there are so many different ypes & different breeders advertising, that why we went for a breeder who had more experience as we thought they would be more knowledgeable & he is very genuine. We did our research & are very happy with our choice, plus cockapoos have been bred since the 1950s in America so they're not a new cross breed just for the money.


What is their purpose then? There are many companion breeds.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Why does every dog need to have purpose to be bred together, they are low shedding, don't smell doggy, intellgient (from the poodle) & then are mixed with the traits from the cocker spaniel (loving etc) to make into a dog that some peopl obviously want or they wouldn't be bred so much (they must be in demand by some people). The poodle coat mixture is generally better for those with allergies, so why not?
I see no reason cross breeds shouldn't be bred together just because they do't have specific reasons as pedigrees do. I'm very happy with mine & tbh this is getting pretty boring seen as none of you are guna loosen up about it, enjoy your breeds & i'll enjoy mine. I'm going to bed anyway. So good night everyone


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> They seem happy enough to me  He has land so they can exercise & he lets them in his house (which is proved as it smells very strongly of dogs - which is obviously the cocker spaniels smell) & i'm not sure exactly how many litters they have but he doesn't over breed them & retires them when they need to be (they are family pets so if he retires them he doesn't sell them on he will give them to friends & family if he has to unlike many who put them into rescues once they've fed their purpose). So not all larger breeders are terrible like you are trying to portray.


if you dont even know how many litters he takes from his bitches how do you know hes not overbreeding? can you be certain he dosent beed them back to back?...and he gives his dogs away when hes done them?..seriously how many of his family and friends do you really think would be looking to rehome those ex breeding bitches:confused1:

.sorry Laura but hes far from a good breeder imo...if people really wanted a cockapoo im sure they could find a breeder who not only health tests but whos dogs are much loved and cherished pets..


----------



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Shrap said:


> This is what annoys me so much. "Oh she's just got such a fabulous temperament" - how do you know? She has a nice temperament for you, but it may not fit the breed. *This is what is wrong in my own breed. People breed GSDs because she's just so soft/lovely.* It's a very dangerous business, breeding a reactive breed that has not been courage tested. So many nervy dogs.


what? you want people to breed GSDs that are reactive? The majority of dogs are pets now, and if people breed dogs that have not got the best termperaments (eg well mannered, acceptable of everything and everyone, lovely tempered etc), then you get dogs which can be very dangerous because people have a pet dog that is reactive to things. How is that safe? Most GSDs are kept as pets, some are kept as guard dogs or do police work etc. How can a reactive pet GSD be safe?

Not directed at Shrap, but I disagree with some people on here. Although breeding should be more regulated, I don't disagree with breeding from pet dogs, as long as the temperament is good and the dog is health tested. If only show and working people bred their dogs, there wouldn't be enough puppies available. Some people may think this is good, (more people getting rescue dogs), but once rescue centres are empty, there still wouldn't be enough dogs/puppies to go around.

I got Ollie from a pet breeder. i'm happy to admit that but I'm happy with the breeder and the way ollie was brought up in her care. The dam was a family pet, not health tested but had fantastic temperament and had a good conformation of a cocker spaniel. The sire chosen was a show dog, health tested for PRA and FN and Glaucoma, also had a fantastic temperament and had great conformation (qualified for Crufts many times, won Veteran class at Crufts 2011). The puppies produced from this mating were gorgeous. Very good puppies, who were brought up in a caring environment, socialised to different sounds, like washing machine, hoover etc and used to children in the house. She also toilet trained them as soon as they could walk. By 4 weeks old, they were already going outside to toilet and by the time I brought him home at 9 weeks old, he was reliably toilet trained and I didn't need to do anything. He's never had an accident in the house.

Ollie is KC reg, either clear or carrier for PRA and FN (meaning he won't develop these diseases) and looks like a cocker spaniel and has the correct conformation. I don't have any problem with his breeder and pet breeders can be caring, loving breeders, just like show and working breeders can be. I don't see why pet breeders should be slated, they are very different from commerical breeders who breed for money and breed many litters from many bitches. Pet breeders usually breed one or two litters from their bitch, and all the care and love is given to those puppies. I don't see a problem with that.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Why does every dog need to have purpose to be bred together, they are low shedding, don't smell doggy, intellgient (from the poodle) & then are mixed with the traits from the cocker spaniel (loving etc) to make into a dog that some peopl obviously want or they wouldn't be bred so much (they must be in demand by some people). The poodle coat mixture is generally better for those with allergies, so why not?
> I see no reason cross breeds shouldn't be bred together just because they do't have specific reasons as pedigrees do. I'm very happy with mine & tbh this is getting pretty boring seen as none of you are guna loosen up about it, enjoy your breeds & i'll enjoy mine. I'm going to bed anyway. So good night everyone


Laura, I'm not trying to pick on you, but the type of breeder you support drives around in a posh car because they breed dogs for a living, does that sit right with you? I couldn't in all honesty enter into breeding with that sort of priority, unfortunately, many do. 

------------------------------------------------------

I'm not against pet breeders, I count myself as one if I do breed, I am however, against people who enter into breeding in ignorance, either knowingly, or in all honesty ignorant. There are dogs dying all of the time because of ignorance, do we want more dogs born into the world to die because of *our* ignorance?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

_Well, there is very little pomeranian breeding in my area, if any, so me breeding isn't over-populating the breed. Especially if Sadie only has 2 pups, which fyi, I have considered getting her spayed after this litter anyways. I'm terrified to lose my dog, and all the negativity and hatefulness I've experienced on this forum today has just increased my fear, so thank you. It seems there's no joy in having puppies, it's all about the risks and bad things that can happen. But you know what, bad things don't always happen. I'm aware that they do, but they don't always. There's so much bad in the world that a little good is nice now and then, but it doesn't seem like it's possible for people to be optimistic and supportive anymore, just callous and demeaning. But that's ok, because I live life outside of this forum and I can try to be optimistic within myself, even if I'm alone in it. I could understand you all chopping me up if I was being completely ignorant and irresponsible, but I made one mistake and I'm sorry. I'm sorry my dog's not AKC and not worth living and having babies in this world because of it. But I love her, and that's all that matters. _

Apols to dwell on this, but receiving a nasty pm has made me go back and look at what I posted, to see if I really am nasty enough to warrant a pm that tells me so.

The op has deleted all their posts, but there's enough left in quotes, particularly the one above, to really get to the bottom of the issue.

There's no pomeranian breeding in the op's area, so that's a good enough reason to breed?
The op has considered getting her spayed after this litter, which implies by default, they've also considered not getting her spayed?
There's no joy in having puppies, it's about the risks and bad things that happen, I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to anyone's bitch, unfortunately, I know differently, and there's no joy in losing a bitch and puppies either 
Not AKC registered and so the op assumes we all think her dog doesn't deserve to live but she's willing to breed from her, nice.

I'm sorry, but I absolutely 100% agree with the posts by DD and Noushka, the op came on here asking about colour genetics, when there are no genetics that are verifiable to ask about in the first place 

I honestly hope the op's bitch comes through this ok, but this thread yet again highlights that people who are pro ethical breeding and push that forward on threads like this and others, are slated, and yet people breeding non registered dogs with little or no knowledge are yet again defended whilst putting their bitch at risk and bringing more dogs into the world where we are constantly killing them because they're unwanted.

Thinking back through other breeding threads, there have been a few where people have made mistakes, owned up, and remained on the forum to ask advice and have been applauded for doing so. The op has been given information about feeding, and why it's a good idea not to give calcium prior to pups being born, and I really do hope they take that on board, despite their thinking, I do not wish them or their dogs ill, it just makes me angry that people can be so ignorant.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

Fair enough SL. I have also read back through the thread and wouldn't want anyone to think I was supporting unethical breeding. I defended the op because I felt the manner in which people were speaking to her was quite unnecessarily aggressive. As it was I don't think she did herself any favours by saying she was breeding because she wanted a bit of her beloved dog left when she died (not nearly a good enough reason in my opinion) or by sending you that PM. 

I think it's a shame that she has felt the need to leave the forum because it is an opportunity missed to constructively point out where she has gone wrong in breeding from her girl and hopefully ensure that this is at least one person who decides that breeding is not such a good idea and gets her girl, and any future pups, spayed/neutered. 

I do understand why people get so wound up by this subject.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I think it's a shame that she has felt the need to leave the forum because it is an opportunity missed to constructively point out where she has gone wrong in breeding from her girl and hopefully ensure that this is at least one person who decides that breeding is not such a good idea and gets her girl, and any future pups, spayed/neutered.


As much as I would like it if people did take advice and decide against breeding, it is rare because those who undertake breeding for poor reasons, are only doing it because they want to and will do it anyway. Some even lie about getting the health tests done etc when they have already had advice to do so. Ultimately, they just want to breed and nothing will stop them from fulfilling what they want.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The problem is, the on threads like this, the op gets to hypothetically storm off and try to make the rest of us look bad. This is an online forum, it's on the internet, it's not real life, and quite often we get posts in the breeding section that are obviously meant to wind us up, those of us who care. In this instance, the op has posed a question about colour genetics, which I can't understand as they know their dogs aren't pomeranians, and so the colour genetics are all a bit out of the window possibly in any case. 

In the meantime, advice has been given, and yes, it has been given with a bit of a tongue lashing in some instances, but it's there. Would any owner for the sake of their bitch, take a bit of an online criticism, for the sake of them, rather than throw their toys out of the pram when the life of their bitch is in the balance? 

For me, and I apologise if it sounds harsh, but that shows where the true concern lies. If the op came back despite the criticism about their motives for breeding, then in all fairness to them, they've done so because they've put their dog first.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Laura, I'm not trying to pick on you, but the type of breeder you support drives around in a posh car because they breed dogs for a living, does that sit right with you? I couldn't in all honesty enter into breeding with that sort of priority, unfortunately, many do.


He doesn't drive around in a big flash car & he also knows that he can't live fully on breeding dogs, he will have periods of time where he has not litters & therefore he has to do other things, not all larger scale breeders only do that to make money & live, some realise that there is only so much breeding that they can do & he needs some other things to make money as well. I kow some people do purely live from money from breeding, but he realises that is not always possible & doesn't.

Tbh i'm not sure what these conversations are achieving? I already have both of my dogs from him so it's not like i'd ever return them & go somewhere else & i'm very happy with how he is as a breeder, sometimes people judge books by their covers & they are wrong in their interpretations & opinions on them. Unless you have experience I don't think people need to be commenting on it now as it's in the past.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

LauraIzPops said:


> He doesn't drive around in a big flash car & he also knows that he can't live fully on breeding dogs, he will have periods of time where he has not litters & therefore he has to do other things, not all larger scale breeders only do that to make money & live, some realise that there is only so much breeding that they can do & he needs some other things to make money as well. I kow some people do purely live from money from breeding, but he realises that is not always possible & doesn't.


TBH Laura even I don't know what to say about your post  Perhaps you should read it back and try again?

I'm sorry, I don't want to appear patronising but can you not see what is wrong with what you have written in terms of ethical breeding?


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

At least he's not some puppy farm who treat their dogs like work & that's it. He loves his dogs & none of you know him so I don't know what your problem is :S


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

LauraIzPops said:


> At least he's not some puppy farm who treat their dogs like work & that's it. He loves his dogs & none of you know him so I don't know what your problem is :S


I think it's because you appear to be a little naive. Just because he doesn't have enough bitches to make a full living doesn't mean he's not a puppy farmer. Even the worst kind of puppy farmer or byb can believe they love their animals, doesn't mean they treat them right unfortunately


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> At least he's not some puppy farm who treat their dogs like work & that's it. He loves his dogs & none of you know him so I don't know what your problem is :S


and that fact that hes not as bad as a puppy farmer makes him a good breeder

if he bred a bitch back to back Laura would you still defend him?

.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

You don't know him! Some people on this forum are so ridicuous it's unreal.
He isn't a byb, he loves his dogs & don't make assumptions on people you don't know :S
I'm pretty sure he doesn't breed his bitches back to back either, as that would mean every season & most dogs I believe have a couple if seasons a year...
My Izzie is not nearly 14 months old & her mum is only just pregnant again, so I wouldn't say that is back to back.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> You don't know him! Some people on this forum are so ridicuous it's unreal.
> He isn't a byb, he loves his dogs & don't make assumptions on people you don't know :S
> I'm pretty sure he doesn't breed his bitches back to back either, as that would mean every season & most dogs I believe have a couple if seasons a year...
> My Izzie is not nearly 14 months old & her mum is only just pregnant again, so I wouldn't say that is back to back.


check out your thread on that forum, he had a bitch whelp in january and again in the august...Laura hes no different from that other commercial breeder on there....both of them treat their dogs as a cash crop..

.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow, didn't know this had moved on, internet has been playing up this evening.

I know of the breeder you got your pups from Laura, I'm sorry, but they are not exactly what I'd call ethical, or the best breeder, not the worst perhaps, but certainly not the best. I have it on good authority that one of the other commercial breeders producing cockapoo crosses, has just bought in their next crop of bitches, ready for production. The ex-breeding bitches have been moved on, this time round, perhaps they'll think about health testing the bitches as well as their stud dogs, which only have one genetic test in place.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I am not going to comment too much as most should know by now that both Sarah and I are hoping to see breeders do more health testing when breeding crosses however can I just make a few comments.

Most cockapoos are mated with mini poodles- although some toys are used.

Some conditions such as Von Willebrand Disease and SA is recommended for the Standards, and I would recommend checking for patellar luxtation on the toy poodles if they are used, as toy breeds are prone to LP.

As far as I am aware there in no UK screening programme for LP like there is for eyes and hips- so presume that would be up to the breeder to take to a vet to check and then if found rule that dog out for breeding. 

With the eyes poodles should be tested for GPRA which a lot of cockapoo breeders do.

I have just visited champdogs to have a look at mini poodle breeders on there to see how their health tests compare and I have looked at about 6 of them and all they are doing is GPRA - the same as the cockapoo breeders. Although this was just a quick look as it's something I have not looked into but actually think I might have to investigate this more.

I would like to see alongside GPRA- yearly BVA eye screening.

Both Sarah and I would like to see some health testing on the cockers too.

However playing devils advocate here!! for example English cockers should be tested for FN. This is recessive so would need two faulty genes for dog to be affected- so mating with a poodle would mean dogs would at worst be carriers. So if cocker wasn't tested then it could only pass on one pair of faulty genes to it's cockapoo offspring. Well this is my understanding of genetics but my knowledge is very basic 


As for Laura - she is happy with her choice of breeder and I don't know too much about Anzil- although I have not heard anything negative.

Laura is a teenager and not familiar with everything on breeders and like all of us is still learning about breeders etc....

Personally I no longer like the idea of large commercial breeders. I didn't mind them but have now personally not felt comfortable with large scale breeding etc.... and have reviewed my own personal preferences. But that is my preference 


And SL you know I do not support THAT breeder whatsoever and do find it upsetting that so many do. Even though THAT breeder is suppose to be doing eye tests on the bitches- I still cannot support them. There are others ( thankfully) whom feel the same and to be honest a lot of it is by us questioning and mention tests etc... that is having an effect.

I have already noticed a big shift on that forum with people asking more about health testing-something which wasn't really happening when I joined a few months ago.

I can't take the credit for it- but like to hope that both sarah and I was part of that shift


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I am not going to comment too much as most should know by now that both Sarah and I are hoping to see breeders do more health testing when breeding crosses however can I just make a few comments.
> 
> Most cockapoos are mated with mini poodles- although some toys are used.
> 
> ...


I can see how people who dont know how the really good breeders treat their dogs could be misled into believeing these commercial breeders are treating their dogs ethically....and as you say Laura is very young , but to turn a blind eye to the FACT that these breeders are using their poor dogs to just to earn them money, breeding many litters per year, and even back to back breeding (and ive seen where both breeders in question have done this), is very wrong imo.... i really hope like yourself Laura stops promoting them as she learns more. 
The folk who defend them should ask themselves this....would they want their own beloved dogs treated the way those breeding dogs are treated ??????

Health testing alone dosent make a good breeder, even some of the worst puppy farms test dogs...but its just another sales ploy to LOOK reputable and caring.

Im passionate about my breed but if the only beeders breeding them where commercial ones then my conscience would Never allow me to support such a breeder just so i could have the puppy i wanted...i could never be that selfish, so please everyone do your homework before buying a puppy and play no part in supporting breeders whos dogs are used as breeding machines.

I think you and Sarah are doing a marvellous job trying to educate people where health testing is concerned, and ive had a look at your website and its really good

.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> However playing devils advocate here!! for example English cockers should be tested for FN. This is recessive so would need two faulty genes for dog to be affected- so mating with a poodle would mean dogs would at worst be carriers. So if cocker wasn't tested then it could only pass on one pair of faulty genes to it's cockapoo offspring. Well this is my understanding of genetics but my knowledge is very basic


Your understanding is correct.

However - some breeders go on to breed F2/F3 etc - that could be cockapoo to cockapoo (so recessive carrier could be present in both dogs) - or cockapoo to cocker or poodle.

If the carrier gene is there, at some point in a breeding programme, unless dogs are tested, it's going to come out - hence the importance of testing at the outset, because then you know exactly what you are dealing with, and breeders are able to give the correct message to any puppy owners who potentially become would be breeders - this is how responsibilities and ethics get passed on.

PRA is I understand prevalent in both cockers and poodles - so both parents should be tested for it; hipscoring is now recommended for Cockers and there is a breed average for Miniature Poodles - interestingly the breed averages are on a par with each other - so there is an argument for saying both parents and their resultant crosses used in breeding should both be hipscored.

In fact, there isn't a miniature poodle scored yet with a score of zero - with the highest score being 58.

I think the above clearly says that really breeders should be testing for:


Hipscoring
DNA testing for PRA
DNA testing for FN
Screening for LP

FN should never be a problem with a first generation cross, but why not start as they mean to go on? it also means that FN clear Cockers and 1st generation crosses can then be mated to cockers or any generation cross bitch of any status and guarantee that no affected crosses will ever be produced. (there has also been instances of conditions in one breed, appearing in another - so never say never).

The risk of not testing on the first generation cross is that the test will get 'lost' - whilst I don't know how many F2/F3 crosses are done and even if there are not many, there will be some, there is a risk of it becoming a condition within cockapoos as well - bad genes can also mutate - hence why caution should be used at the outset.

=================================
I have the greatest respect for what Cockerpoo Lover and Sezra are doing - all credit to them - it doesn't change my fundamental views - but it does give me hope 

Interestingly, when I was researching these health-tests for the poster who seemingly knew nothing about health-testing, I stumbled across a UK Labradoodle site - and the requirements for both breeding and buying a puppy were TOUGHER and stricter than many I've seen, and fell in line with the recommendations of many pedigree breed clubs.

This really is encouraging - my fundamental opinion still hasnt changed - but through the efforts of the "breed club" website I saw, and the efforts of people like CL and Sezra - there might just be a glimmer of light at the end of a very long tunnel.

What I also like about these guys is that in addition to standing by their beliefs, in contrast to some who say "oooh, they might become a breed" - they (and others) are passionate about their crosses because they are 'different' and actually like the fact there is an air of unpredictability about what they will get with a pup - at least they are honest and go this route, because they don't want the standardisation that others claim will eventually follow.

===========================================

Whatever those of us 'purists' for want of a better word (and that is truly the wrong word - because we DO love all dogs - but like everyone else, we have a preference for one or two breeds / types) - the one thing we should ALL be agreeing on, is that IF dogs are to be bred - the breeders should do their utmost to ensure they give the pups the best possible start in life, and this includes health-testing of both parents.

And THAT is the single most important message we should surely be getting out there.

I would like to go one step further, and see the parents and progeny of these cross-breeds being included on the KC Activity register along with any health tests undertaken - we already know there are some flaws with the public register - but nevertheless, it remains the best registry we have in the UK.

With the advent of the KC including unregistered dogs on their records providing they've gone through the correct approval process, if someone believes their unregistered dog is good enough to breed from, then there is NO excuse for them not going through this registration process.

If registration is refused, it's because the dog isn't good enough to be included in the gene pool, and therefore, also not good enough to be bred from.

Bear in mind that part of this registration includes the dog meeting a breed standard, and as a cross can sometimes look identical to one of it's pedigree parents, whilst unlikely, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a cross could end up being included back on the register of one of it's respective pedigrees.

If this happened with a Cockapoo whose parents hadn't been tested for FN - this condition could subsequently become a problem for another breed - that's how quickly and easily a balance could potentially shift.

ETA



noushka05 said:


> I think you and Sarah are doing a marvellous job trying to educate people where health testing is concerned, and ive had a look at your website and its really good


It's fab isn't it? I wasn't sure having not been around much whether it was in the public domain yet - but yes, it's an excellent site and very easy to use


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Your understanding is correct.
> 
> However - some breeders go on to breed F2/F3 etc - that could be cockapoo to cockapoo (so recessive carrier could be present in both dogs) - or cockapoo to cocker or poodle.
> 
> ...


i was very impressed Swarthy, i really do hope it gets loads of hits.

great post by the way lol xx


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I can see how people who dont know how the really good breeders treat their dogs could be misled into believeing these commercial breeders are treating their dogs ethically....and as you say Laura is very young , but to turn a blind eye to the FACT that these breeders are using their poor dogs to just to earn them money, breeding many litters per year, and even back to back breeding (and ive seen where both breeders in question have done this), is very wrong imo.... i really hope like yourself Laura stops promoting them as she learns more.
> The folk who defend them should ask themselves this....would they want their own beloved dogs treated the way those breeding dogs are treated ??????
> 
> Health testing alone dosent make a good breeder, even some of the worst puppy farms test dogs...but its just another sales ploy to LOOK reputable and caring.
> ...


I absolutely agree Noushka that so many other factors are a consideration. Milly came from the same commercial breeder as Sarahs. At the time she was recommended and others had puppies and were happy. She did come from KC reg dogs that are available on the KC database but when I sat down properly to weigh it all up at a later date- things didn't feel so "right " for me.

I now no longer recommend her.

Yes I too do not like the idea of breeders having loads of dogs- breeding them and then moving them on. I know as a commercial they cannot keep them all and have to get in new dogs- but for me this is something I can no longer accept.

I recently did a thread ( another forum) concerning one breeder whom was selling his dogs on, as I was amazed at the price they were selling them for and also was curious to know if there was a market for people buying ex breeding bitches. To be honest my question didn't get answered -so I still don't know if people would pay the amount they were asking for the ex breeding girls as it transcended into comments about this breeder from people whom do not support them.

I don't mind breeders making some profit but I can no longer accept breeders whose live off their dogs 

As for breeders breeding back to back and churning them out left right and centre


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Swarthy with PRA- poodles need to be tested for GPRA and cockers CPRA.

A potential hobby breeder of cockapoos( think he going down the F2 route) is doing his homework. He was looking at HD and has been in contact with the BVA to see how viable this is. At present 4 have been scored to date. He did a thread to see what people though as he seems very keen to ensure the cross is bred as healthy as it can be and looking to the future. The BVA were apparently very helpful.

This then same breeder posted this recently:

Quote:
Just spoken with the kennel club health team, about having a facility to log the health outcomes/reports of non kc dogs, you would of thought I was speaking some alien language! They will be getting a stern email with the BVA copied in!

Then spoke with the lady at the assured breeders scheme, basically outcome is why would I bother breeding cockapoos and their scheme isn't for me! 
For this an email to the vet Marc Abrahams, KC Advisory vet, as he is a champion against puppy farming and would like to see all breeders accredited and licences. And he's just done a talk on the subject at Discover Dogs!


It is a shame when there are breeders trying the very best before they even start and are met with such apathy and no support.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Swarthy with PRA- poodles need to be tested for GPRA and cockers CPRA.


Not according to the Cocker Spaniel club

_PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) is an inherited eye disease found in many breeds of dogs with varying ages of onset. There are various types of PRA but the one most commonly seen in Cockers is* GPRA *(General Progressive Retinal Atrophy) _

Optigen also recommend GPRA as a test for Cockapoo's

Certainly C-PRA is a condition that is included on the Labs Eye test, and more than likely also for Cockers - but it is g-PRA they are DNA testing for,

of c_PRA - the club says this

_Retinal Pigment Epithelial Dystrophy (RPED): This is the condition previously known as CPRA (Central Progressive Retinal Atrophy). Recent research has shown that this disease in Cockers is associated with an inherited metabolic inability to circulate Vitamin E around the dog's system. This results in a central loss of vision but not usually total blindness (affected dogs still maintain peripheral vision). Supplementation with Vitamin E can apparently help in stopping further development of the condition. It is not yet known exactly how this genetic defect is inherited and no DNA test is currently available_


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sorry Swarthy I meant to have said that English cockers also suffer with CPRA as well as GPRA - I didn't explain it well.

Luckily this is mentioned correctly on our site.

Duh....my excuse is typing with a dog pawing me as have not taken for walkies yet and need to eat some brekkie


----------



## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

From pomlover87:
"she was not from a pom rescue, just a regular pound with tons of other dogs"

Nice!

God I'm now in a really bad mood today......


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> From pomlover87:
> "she was not from a pom rescue, just a regular pound with tons of other dogs"
> 
> Nice!
> ...


So she's a rescue dog? 

I refuse to be in a bad mood today, so may have to b*gga off and write some boring reports on walls and stuff.......


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So she's a rescue dog?
> 
> I refuse to be in a bad mood today, so may have to b*gga off and write some boring reports on walls and stuff.......


Yep, this dog is a rescue :angry:


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

:yikes: i missed the rescue bit! suppose thats why she deleted all the posts!?


----------



## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> :yikes: i missed the rescue bit! suppose thats why she deleted all the posts!?


Me too!!! The OP lives in America I think though so the rescue can't do the must be spayed at 6 months.


----------



## debs78 (Jul 18, 2011)

agnes2003 said:


> From pomlover87:
> "she was not from a pom rescue, just a regular pound with tons of other dogs"
> 
> Nice!
> ...


I missed that too  I could have sworn she said her mentor was her breeder I have to admit to being a bit embarrassed


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

debs78 said:


> I missed that too  I could have sworn she said her mentor was her breeder I have to admit to being a bit embarrassed


She definitely did say her breeder was her mentor :S That's strange...


----------



## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

We charged £700 for show type Cockers from parents that are clear of PRA, FN, gPra, cPra and glaucoma. I cringe when I have to say a price, it feels wrong to put a price on a living thing.

Could someone pm a link to the cockapoo forum the breeders are on, can they be viewed without registering .


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Not all breeders are on it, only like 2 on the big forum actually post anything, most just stay out of posting.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cay said:


> We charged £700 for show type Cockers from parents that are clear of PRA, FN, gPra, cPra and glaucoma. I cringe when I have to say a price, it feels wrong to put a price on a living thing.
> 
> Could someone pm a link to the cockapoo forum the breeders are on, can they be viewed without registering .


Yes you can, although I'd be wary of posting anything that appears to contradict certain members. It can get a lot more heated on there, I joined to post health advice and try to promote ethical breeding after stumbling across the forum, and got two anonymous phone calls to my mobile, which I believe to be from members on there trying to clever. The people who precipitated me receiving the phone calls are members on this forum, who saw fit to cross post a link where I unwittingly at that time, posted my thoughts on one of their large commercial breeders, from a post on here about grooming cockapoos; I stand by my thoughts, they are nothing more than puppy farmers albeit ones who health test, and seem to have had a kick up the backside into possibly testing further, ie their bitches not just the two stud dogs they own. How else could you describe a breeder who does the minimum health tests, has ten litters on the ground at once, on bark chipping in kennels, breeds back to back at times, and moves on ex breeding bitches for cash?

Back to this thread, the OP had two dogs, perhaps the dog was the one from a breeder.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes you can, although I'd be wary of posting anything that appears to contradict certain members. It can get a lot more heated on there, I joined to post health advice and try to promote ethical breeding after stumbling across the forum, and got two anonymous phone calls to my mobile, which I believe to be from members on there trying to clever. The people who precipitated me receiving the phone calls are members on this forum, who saw fit to cross post a link where I unwittingly at that time, posted my thoughts on one of their large commercial breeders, from a post on here about grooming cockapoos; I stand by my thoughts, they are nothing more than puppy farmers albeit ones who health test, and seem to have had a kick up the backside into possibly testing further, ie their bitches not just the two stud dogs they own. How else could you describe a breeder who does the minimum health tests, has ten litters on the ground at once, on bark chipping in kennels, breeds back to back at times, and moves on ex breeding bitches for cash?
> 
> Back to this thread, the OP had two dogs, perhaps the dog was the one from a breeder.


I am not sure it was members on here who crossposted SL  I think it was members of that forum snooping around and came across that grooming thread in which both you and me posted and then one spiteful person from that forum whom had it in for me in particular decided to quote both you and me from it and asked for us both to be banned. Luckily some-one else stood up for us and told her that we were entitled to our opinions and the thread got taken off. I didn't see the thread at the time but was told about it.

At the time I think a few were looking at trying to find info on us as they thought we were all in collaboration ( you me Sarah and the member Doodlebugs). I think it probably shocked them that cockapoo owners were not in favour of said breeder


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Anyway going to leave this thread now as it was the OP's thread which had nothing to do with cockapoos !!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I am not sure it was members on here who crossposted SL  I think it was members of that forum snooping around and came across that grooming thread in which both you and me posted and then one spiteful person from that forum whom had it in for me in particular decided to quote both you and me from it and asked for us both to be banned. Luckily some-one else stood up for us and told her that we were entitled to our opinions and the thread got taken off. I didn't see the thread at the time but was told about it.
> 
> At the time I think a few were looking at trying to find info on us as they thought we were all in collaboration ( you me Sarah and the member Doodlebugs). I think it probably shocked them that cockapoo owners were not in favour of said breeder


Sorry CPL, got my wires crossed in that case, I thought it had been cross posted by someone who has been a member on here, if not currently, but in the past. Obviously got the wrong end of the stick with that one.


----------



## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes you can, although I'd be wary of posting anything that appears to contradict certain members. It can get a lot more heated on there, I joined to post health advice and try to promote ethical breeding after stumbling across the forum, and got two anonymous phone calls to my mobile, which I believe to be from members on there trying to clever. The people who precipitated me receiving the phone calls are members on this forum, who saw fit to cross post a link where I unwittingly at that time, posted my thoughts on one of their large commercial breeders, from a post on here about grooming cockapoos; I stand by my thoughts, they are nothing more than puppy farmers albeit ones who health test, and seem to have had a kick up the backside into possibly testing further, ie their bitches not just the two stud dogs they own. How else could you describe a breeder who does the minimum health tests, has ten litters on the ground at once, on bark chipping in kennels, breeds back to back at times, and moves on ex breeding bitches for cash?
> 
> Back to this thread, the OP had two dogs, perhaps the dog was the one from a breeder.


I got so carried reading the forum Noushka sent to me I forgot to say I've been sent it. I am disgusted at the breeder you mention :angry:.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

debs78 said:


> I missed that too  I could have sworn she said her mentor was her breeder I have to admit to being a bit embarrassed


The thread on the other forum (or parts of it) can be found on google cache, and, from what I read, the OPs female was from a dam obtained from a pound as a pregnant dog. She had three pups. The OPs (now) pregnant dam was one of the two pups that survived from that original pound obtained female. Obviously no follow through there from the pound as the original mom belongs to another lady that OP said is her the mentor.

Sad to say I've seen people that claim be be even in breed 'rescue' before keep themselves in that position in order to obtain breeding dogs, or to be in a position to get to know those that can supply them - male and female. I've seen evidence of THAT happening in every part of the world, and I've seen it in front of my very eyes here.

This might get under some's skin, but I believe that comes along in parts of the world such as mine where mutts, which are the most common, are considered of less value, and breeds are seen as being something that can be earned a dollar from. - The PUSH to market purebreds by both those that see that as a lofty goal, and by AR for their own reasons, where a wellbred purebred population base has yet to be established.

The OP mentioned two pups were expected. For those pups and that dam I hope all goes well.

CC


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> The thread on the other forum (or parts of it) can be found on google cache, and the OPs female was from a female taken obtained from a pound as a pregnant dog that had three pups. Her dam was one of two pups that survived from that pound obtained female. Obviously no follow through there from the pound as the original mom belongs to another lady that OP said is her the mentor.
> 
> Sad to say I've seen people that claim be be even in breed 'rescue' before keep themselves in that position in order to obtain breeding dogs, or to be in a position to get to know those that can supply them - male and female. I've seen evidence of THAT happening in every part of the world, and I've seen it in front of my very eyes here.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're alone, I don't think anyone wishes ill to a bitch in whelp, it's just the awful circumstances that surround these situations that makes people cringe.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I added a paragraph as you were posting, and it has to do with what you have just posted so I'll put it again.

_This might get under some's skin, but I believe that comes along in parts of the world such as mine where mutts, which are the most common, are considered of less value, and breeds are seen as being something that can be earned a dollar from. - The PUSH to market purebreds by both those that see that as a lofty goal, and by AR for their own reasons, where a wellbred purebred population base has yet to be established ( . . . . is part of the problem.)_

There are AWFUL circumstances that make me cringe around these situations, but I'd like, at least, some acknowledgement that the common mantra of 'which dogs are valuable to breed' guidelines that are so promoted by those in the purebred community are really part of problem in countries where that base has yet to be established.

I know of commercially bred Cavaliers that have a ton of disease risk that are part of foundation stock in countries like Tiawan and Israel where almost any imported 'rare' breed can end out with at title if campagned.

There has to be recognition that there are many, many place in this world where the purebred population base CANNOT supply the pets needed, and when they are touted as the "ONLY" or "MOST VALUABLE" to these places . . . such as through the world wide web, then that message is a huge part of the problem. We KNOW that invites the unscrupulous so why play into it and become part of it?

Sorry about the rant. I've come acrosss some of this close by the last couple of days. I think I need to go cool my head.

CC


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I added a paragraph as you were posting, and it has to do with what you have just posted so I'll put it again.
> 
> _This might get under some's skin, but I believe that comes along in parts of the world such as mine where mutts, which are the most common, are considered of less value, and breeds are seen as being something that can be earned a dollar from. - The PUSH to market purebreds by both those that see that as a lofty goal, and by AR for their own reasons, where a wellbred purebred population base has yet to be established ( . . . . is part of the problem.)_
> 
> ...


The problem is, why is the OP asking questions about poms, when they're not breeding poms, they are breeding an unknown cross?  So colour genetics can't be certain, can they?

Also, this bitch is a rescue, so how ethical is it to rescue a bitch, and then breed from her?

I agree with you regarding the supply and demand of dogs, but I get more to the point where it seems the ethical breeders are the ones holding back, those who don't give a dam keep churning out the same or more pups, so the balance is always in their favour. Roving death squads for puppy farmers is my solution for tonight (ok, I've had a couple of glasses of red, but sounds good to me).


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The problem is, why is the OP asking questions about poms, when they're not breeding poms, they are breeding an unknown cross? So colour genetics can't be certain, can they?.


Color genes go across all breeds, and mutts. SOME breeds have specialized rare variants, but the same main variants that cause black/tan in one breed, or piebald, are the same as in another. Often breeds NAME them differently, but genetic variants are indeed the same.

So . . . . colors are fairly predictable in mutts IF you know the colors behind a few generations. As with purebred dogs - recessives can always come into play and the number of recessive variants can be a ton of fun when dealing with mutts - however if you had to learn color genetics in a breed that had all colors (like Cockers) it is no more difficult.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Also, this bitch is a rescue, so how ethical is it to rescue a bitch, and then breed from her?


You know what . . . . I don't like it . . . . BUT at LEAST this bitch and her dam appear to have caring owners.

This is UNLIKE the situation I have just run across here where a "rescue" is fronting a substandard kennel that is breeding in high numbers . . . . taking in intact dogs from owners that can't cope and allowing the kennel to utilize them for a time before moving them on to unsuspecting owners.

The OP in this thread is unaware of the chances she is taking, and that is what she needs to be educated on . . . as in the end the lives she helps to create are up to her to back up and she needs to be capable of doing so. Get those parents patella tested if you insist on breeding. Get heart and eyes checked. Start to understand the genetics and the risks . . . . please. I believe most home breeders ARE willing to take on that message as MOST do not want to have any part in causing suffering for any pup.

The commercial breeders I know that are doing this (breeding imports or rescues without any knowledge of what is behind) . . . we have no hope of educating.

I think there is a concept that escapes a lot of attention because it is about numbers and people just think those are boring.

In the USA the AKC registers approx. 1/10th of the dog population (if you calculate and average death age at 10, which is generous, and a population of 70 million dogs with ~750,000 registered by AKC yearly).

Those promoting the AKC only mantra are suggesting, then, that 90% of the current dog population be culled. As someone that does understand genetics and diversity THAT is an irresponsible message.

Indeed, if we were to cull every dog from the gene pool that did not have at least two generations of health knowledge behind it I believe we would lose almost every breed we have . . . perhaps not Labradors and Goldens and the other most populars . . . . but as my interest is in breeds that are not in the top ten that doesn't reassure me one bit.

YES, there are breeding systems that produce stock with less risk than mutts with unknown backgrounds (possibly . . . still up for debate) . . . but WE don't have the population base to take on that system all at once as is being promoted.

WE can't flip systems from what has been in my country and in most rural areas of the USA - the common breeding of mutts or dogs of unknown pedigree - to a goal system (known parentage and testing) overnight without causing suffering . . . such as substandard commercial breeders taking full advantage.

In MY eyes, therefore, the message needs to get out there at a pace that it can be taken in. Let's get home breeders up to speed on realizing there ARE tests for mutts and breeds, and the importance of them, and the importance of establishing lines with known history, the importance of contracts and of placing pups with care. I prefer to do it with less judgement as I find the sledge hammer approach makes people close their ears.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Roving death squads for puppy farmers is my solution for tonight (ok, I've had a couple of glasses of red, but sounds good to me).


I'm an abstainer, but I have no problem with that idea myself even sober.

CC


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Roving death squads for puppy farmers is my solution for tonight (ok, I've had a couple of glasses of red, but sounds good to me).


I see you are taking the calm and sensible approach


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> Color genes go across all breeds, and mutts. SOME breeds have specialized, but the same main variants that cause black/tan in one breed, or piebald, are the same as in another.
> 
> So . . . . colors are fairly predictable in mutts IF you know the colors behind a few generations. As with purebred dogs - recessives can always come into play.
> 
> ...


CC, I hope you know I thoroughly agree with the vast majority of your threads, I think the OP in this instance was, is ignorant as to the breeding of dogs, and the risks they are putting their bitch through. I don't think they understand much, tbh, hence the colour genetics question. But still, I don't think it's right, not knowing the basics, and yet thinking you know enough to put your bitches life at risk. All things being equal, all things in consideration, ie the amount of dogs/pups needed to supply demand, is it right that someone with a rescue bitch, who has no idea of the risks, no idea of genetics, who hasn't health tested as they could have done, is supported as a breeder? My gut instinct says this person honestly didn't know, and probably feels really crappy right now, my brain tells me, they need to, because otherwise, how will they learn how they need to go about breeding possibly, in the future, if not now even? I may sound harsh, I really am not, but I cannot be pro unethical breeding, however it's painted.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> CC, I hope you know I thoroughly agree with the vast majority of your threads, I think the OP in this instance was, is ignorant as to the breeding of dogs, and the risks they are putting their bitch through. I don't think they understand much, tbh, hence the colour genetics question. But still, I don't think it's right, not knowing the basics, and yet thinking you know enough to put your bitches life at risk. All things being equal, all things in consideration, ie the amount of dogs/pups needed to supply demand, is it right that someone with a rescue bitch, who has no idea of the risks, no idea of genetics, who hasn't health tested as they could have done, is supported as a breeder? My gut instinct says this person honestly didn't know, and probably feels really crappy right now, my brain tells me, they need to, because otherwise, how will they learn how they need to go about breeding possibly, in the future, if not now even? I may sound harsh, I really am not, but I cannot be pro unethical breeding, however it's painted.


I agree that this OP knew very little . . . . but she thought she did as she had a mentor! Do you know how many of these people I have talked to face to face? This IS the common breeder here! I go to dog shows and this IS the common knowledge level of breeders that I have found in that environment as well . . . . unfortunately. The greatest number have eyes that glaze over as soon as the word 'recessive' comes into the conversation, let alone polygenic, threshold traits, or COI. Thankfully there are a few that are outstanding that give me hope!

I have trouble but I hold my calm and attempt to get email addresses to send them examples of contracts and OFA forms and other information so that they can, at least, take on the idea that it is in their best interest, and their dogs best interest, to improve.

If we right these people off and pretend that educating them also means we are patting them on the back and supporting them we will get no where.

I don't believe that helping an OP like this, after the bitch is pregnant already, is tacit to telling her she did (or is doing) things right - keeping risks low. I don't believe that is the message she would be getting either.

CC


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I agree that this OP knew very little . . . . but she thought she did as she had a mentor! Do you know how many of these people I have talked to face to face? This IS the common breeder here! I go to dog shows and this IS the common knowledge level of breeders that I have found in that environment as well . . . . unfortunately. The greatest number have eyes that glaze over as soon as the word 'recessive' comes into the conversation, let alone polygenic, threshold traits, or COI. Thankfully there are a few that are outstanding that give me hope!
> 
> I have trouble but I hold my calm and attempt to get email addresses to send them examples of contracts and OFA forms and other information so that they can, at least, take on the idea that it is in their best interest to improve.
> 
> ...


Maybe not CC, the offer was there for the OP to come back and take advice, but they have chosen so far not to. I know they're not the best, you know they're not the best, but if they needed advice, there are people here (not me I hasten to add) who would help them. Can they swallow their own pride? Up to them really, if people were open and honest about breeding, perhaps these threads wouldn't blow up so dramatically when the truth finally came out?

Edited to add not that I wouldn't help them, just I don't have the relevant experience to help them if they needed someone.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Maybe not CC, the offer was there for the OP to come back and take advice, but they have chosen so far not to. I know they're not the best, you know they're not the best, but if they needed advice, there are people here (not me I hasten to add) who would help them. Can they swallow their own pride? Up to them really, if people were open and honest about breeding, perhaps these threads wouldn't blow up so dramatically when the truth finally came out?
> 
> Edited to add not that I wouldn't help them, just I don't have the relevant experience to help them if they needed someone.


She went to another forum with more honest info. and got a similar judgemental response from most, with a similar spat that ensued by forum members over the approach taken.

And the cycle will continue.

As I said, I don't like the situation. I also understand why others have trouble giving advice without telling the OP that breeding without known history is risky. I've just been at this a very long time . . . most of it not on net.

CC


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> They went to another forum with more honest info. and got a similar judgemental response from most, with a similar spat that ensued by forum members.
> 
> And the cycle will continue.
> 
> ...


The thing is though CC, if she admitted the shortfalls, if she came back with an open mind, yes, she'd receive criticism, but she'd also receive help and advice which is what she needs. So is it a case of putting the dogs first, or their own feelings? Breeding is an emotive issue, it always will be, and I hope it always will be, for good reason.

If, the OP chose to come back, despite the nasty pm, despite the absolute stupid reasons for them breeding, I would at least applaud them for trying to find the right information. I can't condone what they're doing, but if they hare the interest of their bitch at heart, despite sticking her in this awful situation, then I really can't criticise. And hopefully they'd get the help they need, but even more importantly, hopefully they can pass the message on about ethical breeding.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The thing is though CC, if she admitted the shortfalls, if she came back with an open mind, yes, she'd receive criticism, but she'd also receive help and advice which is what she needs. So is it a case of putting the dogs first, or their own feelings? Breeding is an emotive issue, it always will be, and I hope it always will be, for good reason.
> 
> If, the OP chose to come back, despite the nasty pm, despite the absolute stupid reasons for them breeding, I would at least applaud them for trying to find the right information. I can't condone what they're doing, but if they hare the interest of their bitch at heart, despite sticking her in this awful situation, then I really can't criticise. And hopefully they'd get the help they need, but even more importantly, hopefully they can pass the message on about ethical breeding.


I would not agree someone had to admit their shortfalls FIRST though. Just a different approach most likely - a place experience has brought me (For a long time I was an educator of learning challenged and often reactive teens, many diagnosed oppositional defiant.)

I have great respect SL, and we agree on much. With cultural differences and experiences (I couldnt' imagine living where the average person had ever attended a dog show - even once) I wouldn't expect to agree on all.

CC


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I would not agree someone had to admit their shortfalls FIRST though. Just a different approach most likely - a place experience has brought me (For a long time I was an educator of learning challenged and often reactive teens, many diagnosed oppositional defiant.)
> 
> I have great respect SL, and we agree on much. With cultural differences and experiences (I couldnt' imagine living where the average person had ever attended a dog show - even once) I wouldn't expect to agree on all.
> 
> CC


I've attended a few dog shows, not for my own dogs, but to sell wares, so know very much what goes on, and some of those involved.

Tbh, despite the OP's nasty pm to me, I honestly, if they needed advice and came back here, I wouldn't criticise them, they are doing what's best for their dogs, and I hope beyond hope, they don't feel they couldn't. I may not agree with what they're doing, and I have every right to voice that, but I wouldn't pick on them or try and stop them from coming back on for advice, it's simply not my place, why would I want to stop them from getting help for their bitch, whether or not I agree with how/why they are breeding from her?


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Why does every dog need to have purpose to be bred together, they are low shedding, don't smell doggy, intellgient (from the poodle) & then are mixed with the traits from the cocker spaniel (loving etc) to make into a dog that some peopl obviously want or they wouldn't be bred so much (they must be in demand by some people). The poodle coat mixture is generally better for those with allergies, so why not?


I understand you're young? At school? Basic biology tells you that not all offspring inherit parental characteristics eg non shedding/temperament/good hips. You can't know about the puppies' coat type til they're a bit grown so wholesale saying they're non shedding is, I'm afraid, nonsense. Surely some poodles aren't intelligent? I've got one thick as a plank springer, yet is brother was far too clever! He has a high prey drive, but his brother could masquerade as a sheep in the midst of a flock.

Sure, these dogs are in demand, latest, greatest cross because people don't understand basic genetics and that character/temperament is not always dictated by the parents.

Please don't try to tell experienced ethical breeders on here that the breeder you chose is selectively breeding for improved genetics, that's crap. Don't tell us he carefully rehouses ex breeding bitches or that he doesn't breed back to back, that's not true, is it?

I don't care what cross you have, but I do care that you handed an extortionate amount of cash to a BYB who doesn't care about the health of the dogs from which he breeds and that you are supporting him and encouraging his poor practice even now! :mad2: Naive, sorry.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Get over it. They're my bloody dogs & we are very happy with them & the breeder, if you don't know him don't comment simple  So if you have nothing nice to say then don't say it to me because I couldn't care less what you think about me or my dogs.
No not all will be non shedding but having poodle in them does help, so don't act like i'm saying ever dog will be perfect because i'm not. & not i'm not at school, just finished college.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Get over it. & not i'm not at school, just finished college.


Clearly you didn't do Science! (or English)

Get over it? Get over the naivety that leads people like you to shore up a back yard breeder who breeds back to back litters of so-called designer puppies? No, I will continue to push for legislation that prevents indiscriminate breeding that is carried out purely for profit and to the detriment of the poor bitches forced to undergo two litters a year because I give a crap about animal welfare.

My, he's done a cracking job on you!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Get over it. They're my bloody dogs & we are very happy with them & the breeder, if you don't know him don't comment simple  So if you have nothing nice to say then don't say it to me because I couldn't care less what you think about me or my dogs.
> No not all will be non shedding but having poodle in them does help, so don't act like i'm saying ever dog will be perfect because i'm not. & not i'm not at school, just finished college.


knowing him wont alter the Fact that hes nothing more than an irresponsible BYB Laura....ive seen his website, ive read the posts about him on your thread... they speak volumes.

.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

You're right I don't like science or English, but i'm not sure where you got the English from anyway?

& you only mentioned one post, everyone else seems pretty damn happy  
& again you cannot change it now I HAVE MY DOGS ALREADY, so what the hell are you trying to achieve now :S

There's much much worse breeders in this world, so i'm not complaining with my healthy happy dogs.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I take it your pups are from fully health tested stock, with a contract ensuring they never end up in rescue?


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> You're right I don't like science or English, but i'm not sure where you got the English from anyway?
> 
> & you only mentioned one post, everyone else seems pretty damn happy
> & again you cannot change it now I HAVE MY DOGS ALREADY, so what the hell are you trying to achieve now :S
> ...


does that include the 2 month 2 week old pup - how do you know it is going to be happy and healthy? the majority of health problems take a fair bit longer to become evident.

You didn't know what health-tests were required for the cross earlier in the thread  but the breeder was a good one ?


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Well yes my parents looked in to most of the research when we bought Izzie last year.
& yes we have signed a contract to say that they will never go into rescue & if in the future we can't look after them anymore (whihc won't happenn) then we have to give them back to him to rehome as he always wants to find the best homes for his dogs & won't let them go in to rescues or to owners who he hasn't sorted out. Did you expect this not to be the case? :/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> You're right I don't like science or English, but i'm not sure where you got the English from anyway?
> 
> & you only mentioned one post, everyone else seems pretty damn happy
> & again you cannot change it now I HAVE MY DOGS ALREADY, so what the hell are you trying to achieve now :S
> ...


 hmm that other bad breeder on that forum has a lot of folk who are 'damn happy' with his breeding ethics.....yet you condemn him

yes you have your dogs now and love them, of course you do...but i would hope that you wouldnt be so naive as to what makes a good breeder now, look beyond your dogs and think about their poor sire and dams, ..dont promote or support breeders who use dogs for financial gain anymore...because theyre ALL discusting.

.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> so what the hell are you trying to achieve now :S
> 
> There's much much worse breeders in this world, so i'm not complaining with my healthy happy dogs.


I'm trying to educate. I would hate for someone else to come along and believe that the misconceptions re coat type and level of intelligence are true. I think it's totally wrong to defend this breeder. Yes, you have a cute puppy, all puppies are gorgeous, yours is no exception, but the way in which it was produced is frankly disgraceful, IMO.

Healthy? I didn't know until he was 4 that one of my (pedigree, KC reg, but crucially, not health tested) dogs had a major health issue.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Also why are we talking about me AGAIN when the thread was nothing to do with me :S


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Well yes my parents looked in to most of the research when we bought Izzie last year.
> & yes we have signed a contract to say that they will never go into rescue & if in the future we can't look after them anymore (whihc won't happenn) then we have to give them back to him to rehome as he always wants to find the best homes for his dogs & won't let them go in to rescues or to owners who he hasn't sorted out. Did you expect this not to be the case? :/


that other commercial breeder also has contracts i believe..., still dosent make him ethical does it? he still churns puppies out and does all the other unethical things that can only ever mean hes a bad breeder....commercial breeders often do have contracts, but its just another sales ploy to make them 'seem' ethical.....Laura all they care about is money.

.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Also why are we talking about me AGAIN when the thread was nothing to do with me :S


Don't you feel special?! 

Because you put your hand up and supported this bloke and this thread was about irresponsible breeding once it was discovered that the OP had bred from a rescue, non health tested dog.

This is a forum where people care about that kind of stuff and not only because we are concerned for the animal's welfare. I think it's quite nice to alert people to the breed standards and to help them-where possible-to avoid the horrendous heartbreak and bankrupting vet bills. I'm just weird that way.


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

There's a difference between someone have a few litters at once compared to 10 I think :S But look at the end of the day I didn't start this thread baout my breeder, & I never would on this forum anyway because people jump down other peoples throats at any chance they can. So seen as I didn't start talking about it i'm guna stop, you can slag him off all you want, i'm not guna keep replying though because I like friendly conversations on forums not bitchy comments.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

At no point have I been bitchy. Not my way, although it could be expected given my mother's nasty nature. Nor have I jumped down your throat, but your determination to defend this guy who is clearly nothing more than out for profit and a BYB is questionable. Yes, you got a pup there, no need to rave about how the sun shines out of him. It doesn't. 

All it has led to is people checking him out and seeing how he operates.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> There's a difference between someone have a few litters at once compared to 10 I think :S But look at the end of the day I didn't start this thread baout my breeder, & I never would on this forum anyway because people jump down other peoples throats at any chance they can. So seen as I didn't start talking about it i'm guna stop, you can slag him off all you want, i'm not guna keep replying though because I like friendly conversations on forums not bitchy comments.


you said you dont even know how many litters he breeds, or how many he takes from his bitches?, i dont think you even realised he'd bred back to back until i pointed it out....so how do you know hes never bred many litters at once:confused5: ...he breeds plenty through out the year thats for sure

ah well theres non so blind as those who will not see:frown2:

and ive not seen any bitchy comments Laura, ive only seen people who care about the welfare of dogs thats all.

.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> There's a difference between someone have a few litters at once compared to 10 I think :S But look at the end of the day I didn't start this thread baout my breeder, & I never would on this forum anyway because people jump down other peoples throats at any chance they can. So seen as I didn't start talking about it i'm guna stop, you can slag him off all you want, i'm not guna keep replying though because I like friendly conversations on forums not bitchy comments.


The only person that made bitchy comments was the OP via pm.

Anyone who owns dogs think their own are the best in the world, sadly, looking at the numbers bred, not every breeder can possibly have the best intentions in the world. Sometimes, even when people are *nice* they still breed for the wrong reasons, usually either for monetary gain, or just because they think it's nice to have litters of puppies. I'm afraid Anzil are not all you think they're cracked up to be, they might be lovely caring people, but they're still breeding dogs for the wrong reasons, with a minimum of health tests. I wonder what would happen if ten, or twenty people with one of their pups suddenly turned round and asked for them to take them back? Would they give them all part refunds, and take the dogs back? Do they have the space to do that? What if ten or twenty puppy owners came back in a couple of years time with health problems with their dogs, that could have been forseen, but just weren't tested for?

Those are the sort of questions you need to be asking to try and ascertain whether it's a breeder you should suport.


----------



## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

Hi I have read this whole thread-never planning to breed and got my dog as an ex racing rescue, but was wondering about something that was written about back to back breeders?Bitches have 2 seasons a year yes?And in the wild or left to their own devices wouldn't they mate at that time and have puppies if they were following their own instincts?So why is it so bad to breed them (if they're healthy)on that schedule? I know NOTHING about breeding so this may be a really really stupid question but I thought I'd ask as others might be wondering too.And please don't shout at me-I've only ever had male dogs before and never given much thought to where they came from tbh.


----------



## abbiechi (Jul 2, 2011)

I love my little girl, she's a Pedigree Chihuahua and I got her from possibly one of the best Chi breeders I've ever met. I know a few girls on here have Phoebe's relatives and nothing bad has ever been said about my girl's breeder.

Anyway, Phoebe is my best friend, it sounds sad but if you read over my previous threads you'll see why. 
I understand that the OP wants a part of their dog that they can keep forever but honestly it isn't worth it, surely? You could choose to keep your girl for possibly not as long as you'd like or risk losing her for puppies. 

I can't breed from Phoebe because she has a defect with her mouth, even if I could I wouldn't because a) I'm NOWHERE near knowledgable enough and b) I would never risk losing her. Of course the main reason I couldn't breed her is that she's spayed now 

Nobody's trying to be horrible, we're just trying to show you things from a different light.


----------



## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

polishrose said:


> Hi I have read this whole thread-never planning to breed and got my dog as an ex racing rescue, but was wondering about something that was written about back to back breeders?Bitches have 2 seasons a year yes?And in the wild or left to their own devices wouldn't they mate at that time and have puppies if they were following their own instincts?So why is it so bad to breed them (if they're healthy)on that schedule? I know NOTHING about breeding so this may be a really really stupid question but I thought I'd ask as others might be wondering too.And please don't shout at me-I've only ever had male dogs before and never given much thought to where they came from tbh.


I think wild dogs have just one season a year. Just because they would mate every season doesn't mean it's good for them. 
Plus, how would you find that many good homes for puppies if breeding every 6 months!


----------



## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

I didn't know that about the seasons-actually I didn't know anything about it before getting my Milly but she started her season 2 days after i got her and has only just finished now so I was thrown in at the deep end with that


----------



## abbiechi (Jul 2, 2011)

My friend's actually looking into getting a Cockerpoo, could someone PM me the name of the breeder that has been discussed on here so I can steer bloody clear. I don't particularly have much of an opinion on designer cross breeds, I've told her to go for a rescue but nada


----------



## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

polishrose said:


> Bitches have 2 seasons a year yes?And in the wild or left to their own devices wouldn't they mate at that time and have puppies if they were following their own instincts?So why is it so bad to breed them (if they're healthy)on that schedule?


Wolves for example only breed once a year. Breeding occurs in February and March, and pups are born in April and May. They are later than domestic dogs to come into their first Season also.

Wild dogs are similar in that the time between births is usually 1214 months, though it can also be as short as 6 months if all of the previous young die. Again they don't reach sexual maturity until later i.e. 12-18 months.

I don't know about 'Feral Dogs' (domesticated dogs left to survive on their own).


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

polishrose said:


> Hi I have read this whole thread-never planning to breed and got my dog as an ex racing rescue, but was wondering about something that was written about back to back breeders?Bitches have 2 seasons a year yes?And in the wild or left to their own devices wouldn't they mate at that time and have puppies if they were following their own instincts?So why is it so bad to breed them (if they're healthy)on that schedule? I know NOTHING about breeding so this may be a really really stupid question but I thought I'd ask as others might be wondering too.And please don't shout at me-I've only ever had male dogs before and never given much thought to where they came from tbh.


No - Bitches don't always have two seasons a year - I've got two here who I am lucky if they have one season a year - and then others who could potentially have three in a year because of the short intervals between them.

Have you actually seen how much having a litter takes out of a good mother? (and how much it takes out of a breeder if they do it properly even if the mother is a good one (and a hell of a lot more if she isn't)

People claim to love these dogs as pets - but what is there about 'being a pet' if all they are doing is churning out litters?

Someone recently said to me at a show - I don't see the fascination about all this showing - the dog's 'just a pet' - a pet is the most important function a dog can perform - mine are all pets some of whom happen to be shown at weekends and very occasionally, when I want another pet / to develop my line / want a pup for my next generation and hopefully shown - then I take a litter - SIMPLES

But the rest of the time, those dogs sleep with me, eat with me, cuddle up to me on the sofa - first and foremost they are pets


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

abbiechi said:


> My friend's actually looking into getting a Cockerpoo, could someone PM me the name of the breeder that has been discussed on here so I can steer bloody clear. I don't particularly have much of an opinion on designer cross breeds, I've told her to go for a rescue but nada


tell your sister to steer clear of the commercial breeders for sure, there are two very well known ones who have duped their buyers into believing theyre ethical, even though they breed many litters per year...and they have both back to back bred 

.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

swarthy said:


> No - Bitches don't always have two seasons a year - I've got two here who I am lucky if they have one season a year - and then others who could potentially have three in a year because of the short intervals between them.
> 
> Have you actually seen how much having a litter takes out of a good mother? (and how much it takes out of a breeder if they do it properly even if the mother is a good one (and a hell of a lot more if she isn't)
> 
> ...


Great post Swarthy xx


----------



## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks swarthy-I actually read candysmum's thread about her first litter after I read this thread and wow it sounds like it's an exhausting time for both dog and breeder.


----------



## GOUDMAN (Jul 23, 2012)

I would like to comment on all these threads concerning cockerpoos and breeder Anzil! I have 2 cockapoos from Anzil (Anthony) and I can honestly say that my two beautiful girls are the best dogs I have ever owned. Anthony takes pride in his dogs looks after them and I only wished more breeders were as dedicated as him! My cockapoos are 3 1/2 and 3 years old now they are beautiful and Anthony is a person that supplies you with after care which not many breeders do! I often get a phone call from him to see if our "girls" are getting on ok etc! I couldnt recommend him high enough! I had to travel over 4hrs to collect our girls and they are worth every penny! and if you require a full ped for the parents I am sure he would supply, no problem! I think that the Cockerpoo should now be recognised as a breed, they are beautiful!


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

GOUDMAN said:


> I would like to comment on all these threads concerning cockerpoos and breeder Anzil! I have 2 cockapoos from Anzil (Anthony) and I can honestly say that my two beautiful girls are the best dogs I have ever owned. Anthony takes pride in his dogs looks after them and I only wished more breeders were as dedicated as him! My cockapoos are 3 1/2 and 3 years old now they are beautiful and Anthony is a person that supplies you with after care which not many breeders do! I often get a phone call from him to see if our "girls" are getting on ok etc! I couldnt recommend him high enough! I had to travel over 4hrs to collect our girls and they are worth every penny! and if you require a full ped for the parents I am sure he would supply, no problem! I think that the Cockerpoo should now be recognised as a breed, they are beautiful!


_have you got any pictures of your girls, would love to see them, my friend has a cockerpoo, shes gorgeous._


----------



## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

GOUDMAN said:


> I would like to comment on all these threads concerning cockerpoos and breeder Anzil! I have 2 cockapoos from Anzil (Anthony) and I can honestly say that my two beautiful girls are the best dogs I have ever owned. Anthony takes pride in his dogs looks after them and I only wished more breeders were as dedicated as him! My cockapoos are 3 1/2 and 3 years old now they are beautiful and Anthony is a person that supplies you with after care which not many breeders do! I often get a phone call from him to see if our "girls" are getting on ok etc! I couldnt recommend him high enough! I had to travel over 4hrs to collect our girls and they are worth every penny! and if you require a full ped for the parents I am sure he would supply, no problem! I think that the Cockerpoo should now be recognised as a breed, they are beautiful!


Glad to see someone who agrees with me  I have two girls as well, the oldest is nearly two, and the youngest is nearly one, they're amazing dogs and Anthony rings us as well to see how they're getting on and keeps in touch on facebook  People don't know until they've actually experienced situations they're only guessing and passing judgement.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

GOUDMAN said:


> I would like to comment on all these threads concerning cockerpoos and breeder Anzil! I have 2 cockapoos from Anzil (Anthony) and I can honestly say that my two beautiful girls are the best dogs I have ever owned. Anthony takes pride in his dogs looks after them and I only wished more breeders were as dedicated as him! My cockapoos are 3 1/2 and 3 years old now they are beautiful and Anthony is a person that supplies you with after care which not many breeders do! I often get a phone call from him to see if our "girls" are getting on ok etc! I couldnt recommend him high enough! I had to travel over 4hrs to collect our girls and they are worth every penny! and if you require a full ped for the parents I am sure he would supply, no problem! I think that the Cockerpoo should now be recognised as a breed, they are beautiful!


This is a very old thread, which I'm not sure why you've resurrected 

Anzil are commercial breeders, do you think it's right that people make a living off dogs? How many health tests were done on the parents of your dogs? Was conformation taken into account, and explained to you? I don't have anything against cross breeding, I do have something against people who cross breed and sell purely for cash, and cut corners, I'm not suggesting the breeder of your pups does this, but it would be good if you could provide hard evidence that that isn't the case. Plenty of people want some of the more popular cross breeds, however, finding people who go about it without just wanting to make money is the difficult part, which is the same for the majority of dog breeders, there are few who put their dogs first unfortunately.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shame no-one with an Anzil pup is willing to post health test results for the dogs used in breeding, they all seem to have disappeared? It'd be nice to come across a breeder that utilised the health test for both breeds, and didn't just use the little they could get away with.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

LauraIzPops said:


> Glad to see someone who agrees with me  I have two girls as well, the oldest is nearly two, and the youngest is nearly one, they're amazing dogs and Anthony rings us as well to see how they're getting on and keeps in touch on facebook  People don't know until they've actually experienced situations they're only guessing and passing judgement.


When will people get this idea out of their heads - the large majority of people have NOTHING against the dogs - I couldn't care less whether they are pedigrees, crosses or heinz 57 varieties - I love all dogs of any shape and size.

What I DO object to however is many of the lemons that breed them - often with not even the most basic of health-tests and usually sold for large sums of money - frequently coupled with false claims


----------

