# will kittens 3 days apart be ok sharing mums



## wiccan (May 1, 2008)

hi i have 2 litters off kittens that are 3 to 4 days apart in age ! both mums have moved in to the same box and are sharing dutys off the kittens. Will this be ok for the younger kittens they all seem 2 be thriving . The second litter are from a young rescue cat who isnt a brillant mother. The kittens spent the first day with her but she kept leaving them and going in with the older litter. 
any advice welcome please no comments from the closed thread i would like advice only on the matter off this question thanx


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

It's really not a good idea to pool litters. It's much better for mum and both litters of kittens if you can put them in separate rooms and not let them interact with each other.

Even when the kittens are older it's not a good idea to mix them. Believe it or not socialisation can be difficult with mixed litters. Each queen has a different way of raising their young.To mix these litters would be a mistake for all concerned.

Plus whether you recognise it or not it will be stressful for your queens not knowing what to do because the litters are mixed.

PS. Polydactyl is NOT a breed. Considering how long you've been a member I'd of thought you would know this, and that it's just not acceptable to breed them. The only real reason for breeding them is because the money people will (misguidedly) pay for such a 'special' but deformed kitten. Are both queens moggies I take it? Even more reason for you NOT to breed them Please do the right thing and get them both spayed asap ... so when the kittens leave you at (what I hope would be) 13 weeks there will be no more unhealth tested, deformed kittens. 13 weeks especially for yours because it will be more difficult for them to socialise properly if you do continue to mix/pool the litters.


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## Donskie (Feb 2, 2011)

wiccan said:


> hi i have 2 litters off kittens that are 3 to 4 days apart in age ! both mums have moved in to the same box and are sharing dutys off the kittens. Will this be ok for the younger kittens they all seem 2 be thriving . The second litter are from a young rescue cat who isnt a brillant mother. The kittens spent the first day with her but she kept leaving them and going in with the older litter.
> any advice welcome please no comments from the closed thread i would like advice only on the matter off this question thanx


I think that you have been given the same advise on this thread as what was given on the closed thread. TBH I think you'd be best to take that advise and split both litters. Everyone has their own views on things and have every right to air their views, some may like their opinions and some may not but THATS LIFE I'm afraid.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

please stay on the topic the other issue was brought up in the closed thread...Thanks Jill


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## Myanimalmadhouse (Mar 6, 2011)

This is quite a tough question really!

It could be that the young rescue cat is too young to have had a litter and is looking for the "mummy"security herself from your other cat.

If she's not a brilliant mother its possible that she could of refused the kittens altogether so in a way it might be good as she may be following your other cats lead and learning to look after them. (Many rescue centres put in abandoned kittens into surrogate mums)

However you need to be very very careful because if at any time your other cat feels like she cant cope with so many kittens she may refuse some or all of the kittens and then you will find yourself hand rearing both litters! - Or worse either cat could decide to kill the kittens 

I'd say use your instincts - if both cats are happy then let them be but the FIRST sign of any stress by either and split them asap!


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## wiccan (May 1, 2008)

thank you so much my animal madness for your advise ! I on the advise off my vet rang a vet who specialises in cats and she says its fine 2 leave the litters together so long as i monitor that the smaller kitten arent being pushed off by the bigger ones and both mothers are happy .
The young rescue cat has only been here a few weeks and was already pregnant when she arrived so i think she is seeking reasurance from the other cat. She also lost one off her kittens early on so this was probabl unsettling for her 
a picture off the older kittens just afew hours old


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

It's not fine to let them pool! Vets are full of advice, but they train to deal with medical problems in animals. You don't often find a vet who has specialised in breeding or nutrition. If your vet has said pooling two litters is fine, I'd hazard a guess they haven't.

Both queens should have been separated once they were approaching due date and should have been kept separate.

The problems your younger queen is having with her litter could well be down to you not doing this.


Kittens fair much better if socialised in their own environment with their mum and siblings. As I said before you could well end up with behavioural problems from pooling them. The queens would be confused, and wouldn't socialise them properly either.

If it were a smaller number of kittens total, then you could leave your deformed queen with all of the kittens. But it would be best to keep her apart from the younger queen in this instance. But it's too large a litter IMO for you to risk this.

Though if the younger queen has fed her kittens you still have a chance at separating them successfully, and both litters going on to be well rounded/socialised kittens. Leave it any longer and you don't. Both queens should be a quiet contained environment where they can tend to their young without any stress. If they cry they will feed them and tend to them. Give the queens too much space and this would be less successful.

To breed an animal doesn't just start with a mating and end with them going to a new home. You have to (well if you want to do it ethically) do everything you can to ensure when they do leave you, they leave as the best possible example of a healthy well mannered young animal. That way hopefully they will be less inclined to be dumped should their new owner decide they won't put up with biting or scratching or messing outside of a litter tray.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

wiccan said:


> hi i have 2 litters off kittens that are 3 to 4 days apart in age ! both mums have moved in to the same box and are sharing dutys off the kittens. Will this be ok for the younger kittens they all seem 2 be thriving . The second litter are from a young rescue cat who isnt a brillant mother. The kittens spent the first day with her but she kept leaving them and going in with the older litter.
> any advice welcome please no comments from the closed thread i would like advice only on the matter off this question thanx


As long as the younger ones have had their colostrum, and as long as both girls are happy, I'd let them go for it. Mine do this frequently and it's very successful. The downside is that if one lot gets an infection they all get it, whereas if they are completely separate you might manage to limit it to one litter. But this consideration can be outweighed by how happy the mothers are. In the end, it's going to come down to what works for your situation. it would be a different matter if the age gap was bigger of course.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm sorry Liz but that's just not true.

The only ethical reason for giving a queen more than her own kittens to nurse is if the other queen completely rejects her kittens and everything else tried has failed.

That is, if you care about giving them the best socialisation.

I was recently privy to some information about a breeder outside of the UK who makes sure all of her queens are kept apart while raising a litter. The result of this was witnessed by someone who has always raised them together, and in just one visit she changed her mind. I'll see if I can find some of the info (I fear I may have deleted it though) for you.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> The only ethical reason for giving a queen more than her own kittens to nurse is if the other queen completely rejects her kittens and everything else tried has failed.
> 
> That is, if you care about giving them the best socialisation.


Well, I have been doing this regularly (when the cats wanted to) for 18 years, so I think I have enough experience to make my own judgment, thank you.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, I have been doing this regularly (when the cats wanted to) for 18 years, so I think I have enough experience to make my own judgment, thank you.
> 
> Liz


Aye Liz, but as I've said many times before ... Just because you have bred for decades it doesn't mean you do it the right way!

The lady I'm talking about has bred for more than 30 years, and the proof was in the pudding. I was told they were the best socialised kittens she had ever seen from someone who breeds more than one queen at the same time.

Also the newest queen hasn't been in the home more than 8 weeks, so it's not like both queens even have much of a bond for it to work.


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## wiccan (May 1, 2008)

thanx lizward its good 2 hear from someone who has experienced this.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> The lady I'm talking about has bred for more than 30 years, and the proof was in the pudding. I was told they were the best socialised kittens she had ever seen from someone who breeds more than one queen at the same time.


One person's experience of one breeder's litters does not constitute a scientific study.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> One person's experience of one breeder's litters does not constitute a scientific study.
> 
> Liz


Liz, one breeders claim to experience doesn't mean it's the right way to do it either!

I never said it was a scientific study  But I've enough common sense to figure out why it was a successful way of doing it. It simply makes sense. It also explains why my girl and I raised such a well socialised litter. Because my/her attentions were focused purely on one litter. The fewer the kittens, the more time you have for each individual, that goes for the breeder and the queen. Too many kittens and you can only afford them an hour or two a day, which is not long at all.

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Are you going back to your old ways of trying to belittle me all the time for saying I don't agree with your dated 'ethics'? Let me know, because if you are I shall just slap you back on ignore. It's much more pleasant that way.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

You started it. As always.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Um, no Liz you started it by claiming outdated ethics are acceptable. Seriously, anyone who's been around a while knows the problems you have with pooling litters! Anyone who doesn't ... well they only have to search your posts, it's all there. 

You even said yourself if one gets ill they all do, that alone is a very good reason NOT to pool litters!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

You 2 crack me up :lol:

You are both breeders, yet breed/raise in totally different ways. So what?? The cats and kittens in question are happy, healthy etc and surely thats the most important thing?!

Yes we all have different opinions............but that doesn't mean one or the other is right and the other is wrong. It means that you see things DIFFERENTLY. 

So long as it doesn't affect the cats or kittens then it really doesn't matter!!!

What works for one doesn't always work for another

Another mans meat is another mans poison etc etc etc b:ciappa:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> You 2 crack me up :lol:
> 
> You are both breeders, yet breed/raise in totally different ways. So what?? *The cats and kittens in question are happy, healthy etc and surely thats the most important thing?!*
> 
> ...


I would agree with you if that part (I've bolded it) were true.

I'm saying no more, because to be honest it just isn't worth it. Liz is back on my ignore list and will remain there. It really just is not worth it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I find it quite difficult to comprehend that an experienced breeder would condone pooling litters, unless no other option was available, especially in these circumtances. It was pointed out by the OP that the younger cat is a rescue who was already pregnant when she was taken in. By anyone's standards, that is a high risk litter in terms of cross infection.

In that respect, there's a possibility the damage has already been done but I'd respectfully suggest, Wiccan, that you separate the two 'girls' and allow them to raise their own litter for the reasons pointed out already by another poster. Apart from anything else, it puts a heavy and unnecessary burden on one girl to raise all of the kittens.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Lets all play nicely.....Jill


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Um, no Liz you started it by claiming outdated ethics are acceptable. Seriously, anyone who's been around a while knows the problems you have with pooling litters! Anyone who doesn't ... well they only have to search your posts, it's all there.
> 
> You even said yourself if one gets ill they all do, that alone is a very good reason NOT to pool litters!


It doesn't suit for us all to do the same.. be the same.. It wouldn't be right for us all to agree.. each to their own.. 
So Please Ladies.. put your handbags down and be nice..


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I find it quite difficult to comprehend that an experienced breeder would condone pooling litters, unless no other option was available, especially in these circumtances. It was pointed out by the OP that the younger cat is a rescue who was already pregnant when she was taken in. By anyone's standards, that is a high risk litter in terms of cross infection.
> 
> In that respect, there's a possibility the damage has already been done but I'd respectfully suggest, Wiccan, that you separate the two 'girls' and allow them to raise their own litter for the reasons pointed out already by another poster. Apart from anything else, it puts a heavy and unnecessary burden on one girl to raise all of the kittens.


It's very commonly done. Every aspect of cat breeding carries a risk, it's often a matter of weighing up one risk against another. For example, the best possible way to raise a litter with no infection, in a multi-cat environment, is to confine Mum and kittens to an outdoor pen for the duration - three months. risk of cross-infection is then zero (assuming you have sneeze barriers against local moggies). Most of us don't do that and for good reason - you end up with unsocialised kittens who are terrified of normal household noises.

Now in this case with a rescue who has been in the house for eight weeks (if I understood correctly) there is some risk of infection if the rescue cat is infected but has not yet developed clinical signs of something which has a long incubation period, but I should imagine the damage has already been done if there is any damage to be done. These cats have been together for eight weeks after all.

Liz


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I must disagree, Liz, with much of what you have said. Whilst I fully accept that breeding/raising kittens carries risks which must be weighed against socialisation issues, I can't see that it's wise to throw caution to the wind in these particular circumstances.

Unfortunately, there is an extremely high incidence of calici/herpesvirus in rescue cats. We both know - or rather I assume we do - that the carrier status for these viruses is correspondingly extremely high, especially with the latter where virtually all become lifelong carriers. Both can be, and often are, completely asymptomatic until a trigger event occurs and you really don't know what you're dealing with *until* that occurs.

Again, I accept that cross infection, even with queens segregated to raise their own litters in a home, that eventual cross infection is possible; this is by no means, though, highly probable as it will depend upon each individual queen's immunity status and various other factors.

Given a fighting chance, a slightly older kitten may win a battle against such viral infections but it would be almost certainly fatal with very young kittens which is why, in these circumstances, I would have advised not mixing these two litters until they were very much older.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

You make a good point, but going to a new home is highly stressful and surely a herpes carrier would have become symptomatic during that time.

Besides, surely the OP has her original cat vaccinated? If so the kittens are protected by their mother's immunity at the moment, and the stress of kittening will make an asymptomatic cat become symptomatic long before maternal immunity wears off. It is in fact entirely possible to raise healthy kittens from a cat with herpes, I have never done it and I would not recommend that anyone sets out to do it, but all it needs is early vaccination or early weaning. The vaccination against herpes is highly effective.

Liz


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## Sergeant.Floyd.Pepper (Mar 2, 2011)

Hi I;m new just stopping by but no advice to give. sorry.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Acacia86 said:


> Yes we all have different opinions............but that doesn't mean one or the other is right and the other is wrong. It means that you see things DIFFERENTLY.
> 
> So long as it doesn't affect the cats or kittens then it really doesn't matter!!!


if we were talking about what type of cat litter or what brand of food then I would agree with you. 
personal choice. no right, no wrong. 
but pooling litters is fraught with danger and should only be done when there is no alternative. 
It does affect the cats and kittens. 
there is a right and wrong.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Apart from anything else, it puts a heavy and unnecessary burden on one girl to raise all of the kittens.


I agree entirely and Wiccan has already said one of the cats is not a great mother 

A point made about infection risk is very valid too.

So in my opinion it's never a good idea to "pool" kittens.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> It's very commonly done.
> Liz


Even when things are very "commonly done" in the cat (and dog) breeding world, it doesn't make them right though 

I can understand that old habits die hard with some breeders (generalising) ... Ideas change as our understanding of disease and cross infection hopefully improve and one would hope people breeding or having "accidental litters" are willing to live and learn from more knowledgeable people


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> one would hope people breeding or having "accidental litters" are willing to live and learn from more knowledgeable people


Yes, I second that.

Liz


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Even when things are very "commonly done" in the cat (and dog) breeding world, it doesn't make them right though
> 
> I can understand that old habits die hard with some breeders (generalising) ... Ideas change as our understanding of disease and cross infection hopefully improve and *one would hope people breeding or having "accidental litters" are willing to live and learn from more knowledgeable people *


As long as you remember the cat in question on the thread was a rescue cat already pegnant..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> You make a good point, but going to a new home is highly stressful and surely a herpes carrier would have become symptomatic during that time.Liz


No so, Liz, much as I'd like to be able to agree for all our sakes. There are many references to be found (some of dubious origin which I won't quote) but the following is from the FAB site which I think we all accept as a sound source of information:

(On Feline Herpesvirus) "Even in cats that recover entirely, those that have been infected by FHV are infected for life, becoming 'carriers' of the infection. Cats that are carriers of FHV do not shed virus all the time - it 'hides' in the cat and is only shed at times of stress. Known stresses that can start a cat shedding virus include re-homing, going to shows or catteries (including stud), having kittens or lactating.

In studies, carrier cats start to shed virus around one week after the stress and shed the virus for up to 14 days after that. Some cats do show mild signs of flu when they are shedding virus, *but many cats have no symptoms at all.* It can be hard to detect carrier cats, as they do not shed virus all the time, and a negative swab cannot therefore be taken to mean that the cat is clear. A positive swab on the other hand does mean that the cat is infected. The virus cannot be eliminated from carrier cats. As an infected queen will usually infect successive litters of kittens, probably the best way to manage cats known to be infected with FHV is to remove them from the breeding population by neutering and re-homing."

From this it naturally follows that all kittens born to an FHV carrying queen will become infected. FHV vaccine may well be highly effective, as you've said, but is of obviously absolutely no use because the animal will have already been infected and become a lifelong carrier well before its first vaccination.

Just to add, I'm not using this information to imply that the OP's cat(s) are FHV carriers; merely as a point of interest as we're discussing it.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> As long as you remember the cat in question on the thread was a rescue cat already pegnant..


as long as you remember there are two cats in question. one an already pregnant rescue. one deliberately bred in the hope of getting kittens with genetic abnormalities..


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> No so, Liz, much as I'd like to be able to agree for all our sakes. There are many references to be found (some of dubious origin which I won't quote) but the following is from the FAB site which I think we all accept as a sound source of information:
> 
> (On Feline Herpesvirus) "Even in cats that recover entirely, those that have been infected by FHV are infected for life, becoming 'carriers' of the infection. Cats that are carriers of FHV do not shed virus all the time - it 'hides' in the cat and is only shed at times of stress. Known stresses that can start a cat shedding virus include re-homing, going to shows or catteries (including stud), having kittens or lactating.
> 
> ...


Good post and something for people breeding and mixing kittens to consider!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> as long as you remember there are two cats in question. one an already pregnant rescue. one deliberately bred in the hope of getting kittens with genetic abnormalities..


Exactly. So very sad.


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## wiccan (May 1, 2008)

well on the advice off 2 vets and that lizward has said shes done it sucessfully iam going to leave the kittens together. They are all putting on weight and the vet has come out to check them over (because off the little one we lost) and as far as she can tell at such a young age there al healthy.
Both cats are fully upto date with the jabs and are already booked in 2 be spayed once the kittens have left . They wont be allowed to leave the house before this is done.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

wiccan said:


> well on the advice off 2 vets and that lizward has said shes done it sucessfully iam going to leave the kittens together. They are all putting on weight and the vet has come out to check them over (because off the little one we lost) and as far as she can tell at such a young age there al healthy.
> Both cats are fully upto date with the jabs and are already booked in 2 be spayed once the kittens have left . They wont be allowed to leave the house before this is done.


So what about the advice the rest of us have given? You going to ignore that?

:mad2:


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## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

I think some great advice has been given here by some experienced and knowledgeable people but I'm not sure what the point was in starting the thread seen as all of that advice has been ignored! Puzzled.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

MatildaG said:


> I think some great advice has been given here by some experienced and knowledgeable people *but I'm not sure what the point was in starting the thread seen as all of that advice has been ignored!* Puzzled.


Unfortunately, I've noticed this being more prevalent on PF - requests for advice, when *advice* isn't actually what is truly being sought. And, when others offer advice or an opinion that the OP may not agree with (*generalisation on OP*), they request that the thread be closed or 'throw their toys out of the pram' leaving people who have offered good advice, based on years of experience, frustrated :mad2:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

It is a shame that good advice is wasted but at the end of the day it is just that - advice and no one is obliged to take one person's advice over another's whether we agree with it or not.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

I never quite got pooling.....

I would never do it unless 1 mum had rejected or had passed away or was a very very bad mum.

Pooling imo is wrong it can pass on illness's and can cause a issue when it comes to the "who's mummy" question. 

If for what ever reason I had 2 pregnant dogs or cats at the same time they would be separated weeks before they were due.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I never quite got pooling.....
> 
> I would never do it unless 1 mum had rejected or had passed away or was a very very bad mum.
> 
> ...


It strikes me (generalising) that it's the lazy breeders way of rearing kittens or puppies :confused1:

I'd run a mile from anyone doing rearing animals this way, it would ring alarm bells for sure :scared:


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> It strikes me (generalising) that it's the lazy breeders way of rearing kittens or puppies :confused1:
> 
> I'd run a mile from anyone doing rearing animals this way, it would ring alarm bells for sure :scared:


I would run too
it is a sign of lazy breeding and of over crowded breeding


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I knew of a breeder who did it as the mums were getting very distressed at being split up as they were mum & daughter.... Not always a negative reason to do it.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I think each and every case is different.. you cant just use a blanket rule for this.. As you can't for most things..


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

everyone agrees there are valid reasons to pool litters
i dont think anyone in this thread thinks this posters reasons for doing it are valid

so not using a blanket rule, just looking at the circumstances THIS poster described in THIS post, it is not a good idea

but she is doing it anyway as is her right
as it is also her right to breed a deformed moggy cat

as it is my right to disagree with both of those things


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> everyone agrees there are valid reasons to pool litters
> i dont think anyone in this thread thinks this posters reasons for doing it are valid
> 
> so not using a blanket rule, just looking at the circumstances THIS poster described in THIS post, it is not a good idea
> ...


Well said and there are other people here who agree with you


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MatildaG said:


> I think some great advice has been given here by some experienced and knowledgeable people but I'm not sure what the point was in starting the thread seen as all of that advice has been ignored! Puzzled.


It has not all been ignored. She took my advice and that of two vets. The fact that not everyone agrees means that she cannot take everyone's advice.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> I would run too
> it is a sign of lazy breeding and of over crowded breeding


Rubbish.

Liz


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

When I was younger .. the cats my mum had used to pool.. Never had any probs.. all lived long and happy.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Liz


what I say is not rubbish
it is a view accepted by 99% of good breeders and vets. 
pooling carries huge risks and shouldnt be done unless the circumstances warrant it. 
didnt mean to step on your toes if you pool or if you have too many breeding cats to seperate them


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

catsmum said:


> what I say is not rubbish
> it is a view accepted by 99% of good breeders and vets.
> pooling carries huge risks and shouldnt be done unless the circumstances warrant it.
> didnt mean to step on your toes if you pool or if you have too many breeding cats to seperate them


I don't think any points you've made on this thread (or any other) are rubbish. In fact, if you are a breeder, having read all of your posts, you sound like a very ethical one.

I, for one, hope you stick around on the forum. Good breeding knowledge and practices should be welcomed here on PF with 
open arms :thumbup:


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> When I was younger .. the cats my mum had used to pool.. Never had any probs.. all lived long and happy.


When I was young cats were fed on fish heads and kicked out at night.It wasnt right then and it is far from acceptable now,so I fail to see the relevance.A lot of the methods used in animal care have ,with a better knowledge of the risks involved,been changed for the better.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

buffie said:


> When I was young cats were fed on fish heads and kicked out at night.It wasnt right then and it is far from acceptable now,so I fail to see the relevance.A lot of the methods used in animal care have ,with a better knowledge of the risks involved,been changed for the better.


Well like its been said it all depends on the circumstances.. Times have changed.. But some old methods are still used.. 
The cats my mum had.. were foster cats, she personally never left any cats out to breed.. They and came to her pregnant.. And in some cases the cats were that young they just couldn't look after kittens themselves or they were in that bad a state if they were left to do all the feeds it would have taken that very last bit out of that cats life.. We had 17 cats at one point.. remember it all very clearly..  We had the room for the cats and my mum had all the knowledge care etc for these cats Before they went to their new forever homes..


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> When I was younger .. the cats my mum had used to pool.. Never had any probs.. all lived long and happy.


not all risk-laden activities are "punished" everytime they are undertaken

some people drink & drive and don't have accidents
some mothers smoke and do have normal size babies
some cats are bred back to back with no ill effects
your mum pooled litters and all was well

they are all risk laden behaviours even though they sometimes work out ok


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> not all risk-laden activities are "punished" everytime they are undertaken
> 
> some people drink & drive and don't have accidents
> some mothers smoke and do have normal size babies
> ...


Pooled litters where there was no other choice.. I think we posted at the same time so you probably missed why..


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> When I was younger .. the cats my mum had used to pool.. Never had any probs.. all lived long and happy.


I think this quote shows where information and the resulting replies can be wrongly picked up.You gave no explanation that there were "reasons" why the kittens were pooled,all you stated was that the cats your mum had used to pool.. and there were never any problems...all lived long and happy lives.When in fact there were reasons you feel it was neccessary at the time.Whether these are justified reasons or not it does change the context of your reply.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> what I say is not rubbish
> it is a view accepted by 99% of good breeders and vets.
> pooling carries huge risks and shouldnt be done unless the circumstances warrant it.
> didnt mean to step on your toes if you pool or if you have too many breeding cats to seperate them


It certainly isn't :thumbup:

Unless their is a GENUINE reason to do this, why would anyone want to. Though I can understand it might make life easier for those breeding cats, so that would be enough incentive for some ... I shudder to think what goes on to be honest


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

buffie said:


> I think this quote shows where information and the resulting replies can be wrongly picked up.You gave no explanation that there were "reasons" why the kittens were pooled,all you stated was that the cats your mum had used to pool.. and there were never any problems...all lived long and happy lives.When in fact there were reasons you feel it was neccessary at the time.Whether these are justified reasons or not it does change the context of your reply.


This is exactly why I put it like that.. You see I believe a lot of people who join forums aren't sure how to put things down.. And quite often we read the little bit they have put with no explanation and then some of us dive on that person.. when in reality.. The person just needs some questions asked and be able to feel comfortable to answer..  Im glad you picked that up..


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

People can be vague when posting and then back track to cover themselves, so it's always going to be difficult to get the true picture from some people who post ... Kind of mirrors real life I guess.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> People can be vague when posting and then back track to cover themselves, so it's always going to be difficult to get the true picture from some people who post ... Kind of mirrors real life I guess.


Quite true.. But I do find some people really struggle to express what they mean or what help they need when it comes to typing it out.. 

I type some things, then the next day re read and think..  :lol:


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> This is exactly why I put it like that.. You see I believe a lot of people who join forums aren't sure how to put things down.. And quite often we read the little bit they have put with no explanation and then some of us dive on that person.. when in reality.. The person just needs some questions asked and be able to feel comfortable to answer..  Im glad you picked that up..


In hindsight that is easy to say,but ,it could just as easily have been exactly what you meant to say.We as members on a forum,replying to posts by unknown people can only answer the posts as we see them.We are not going to read every post and wonder ,does the poster mean this,or perhaps they mean something else.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

buffie said:


> In hindsight that is easy to say,but ,it could just as easily have been exactly what you meant to say.We as members on a forum,replying to posts by unknown people can only answer the posts as we see them.We are not going to read every post and wonder ,does the poster mean this,or perhaps they mean something else.


I agree but often its worth going in slowly rather than diving on a poster and scaring them off.. :yikes:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I think people make their post and don't want it to come across like their life history so miss out pieces which, for those advising, could be absolutely vital to understand the situation. They, of course, may be hiding facts which may prejudice the replies they get too.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> In hindsight that is easy to say,but ,it could just as easily have been exactly what you meant to say.We as members on a forum,replying to posts by unknown people can only answer the posts as we see them.We are not going to read every post and wonder ,does the poster mean this,or perhaps they mean something else.


I agree and as we so often see, people will back pedal and change their tune to suit the moment and wriggle out of things they have stated :crazy:


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> I think people make their post and don't want it to come across like their life history so miss out pieces which, for those advising, could be absolutely vital to understand the situation. They, of course, may be hiding facts which may prejudice the replies they get too.


To be honest I think most of the posters who appear with "controversial" threads are looking for someone to tell them what they are doing/have done is okay.When they suddenly find that most disagree with their actions thats when the toys get thrown out of the pram.Most of the genuine posters who have made mistakes are more than willing ,in the first few sentences,to show that they are aware they have made a mistake.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

buffie said:


> To be honest I think most of the posters who appear with "controversial" threads are looking for someone to tell them what they are doing/have done is okay.When they suddenly find that most disagree with their actions thats when the toys get thrown out of the pram.Most of the genuine posters who have made mistakes are more than willing ,in the first few sentences,to show that they are aware they have made a mistake.


But you get the people that come on and they have read that first thread.. Andlike you say not much of an explanation is there.. they have then learnt from many of you.. then someone comes on reads the first thread and takes action from that bashing OP without having read the whole thread.. And if they had of they would have seen how the thread progressed..


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

buffie said:


> ]To be honest I think most of the posters who appear with "controversial" threads are looking for someone to tell them what they are doing/have done is okay[/B].When they suddenly find that most disagree with their actions thats when the toys get thrown out of the pram.Most of the genuine posters who have made mistakes are more than willing ,in the first few sentences,to show that they are aware they have made a mistake.


I agree with this but there are still genuine posters who are well aware of and admit, the mistakes they have made and they are still berated by some.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> To be honest I think most of the posters who appear with "controversial" threads are looking for someone to tell them what they are doing/have done is okay.When they suddenly find that most disagree with their actions thats when the toys get thrown out of the pram.Most of the genuine posters who have made mistakes are more than willing ,in the first few sentences,to show that they are aware they have made a mistake.


Good points made Buffie :yesnod:


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> I agree with this but there are still genuine posters who are well aware of and admit, the mistakes they have made and they are still berated by some.


I think the problem might be that one person might think a poster is genuine and and well aware of their mistakes and admit them, but the next poster thinks differently. What I mean is, we don't all agree when someone is the real deal or not.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> I think the problem might be that one person might think a poster is genuine and and well aware of their mistakes and admit them, but the next poster thinks differently. What I mean is, we don't all agree when someone is the real deal or not.


Very true.. But aren't we all innocent till proven guilty?


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> Very true.. But aren't we all innocent till proven guilty?


this isnt a court of law
its a pet forum
we dont have judges and juries and legislation
we have posters and opinions
I dont think it fair to try to stifle ANY opinions on a forum that is meant for discussion


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

catsmum said:


> this isnt a court of law
> its a pet forum
> we dont have judges and juries and legislation
> *we have posters and opinions*
> I dont think it fair to try to stifle ANY opinions on a forum that is meant for discussion


Making no one person's *opinions* any more valid than another's.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> this isnt a court of law
> its a pet forum
> we dont have judges and juries and legislation
> we have posters and opinions
> I dont think it fair to try to stifle ANY opinions on a forum that is meant for discussion


It's starting to feel a like a court of law at times 

I agree with what you say. As I am sure you will agree, we need to civil, but should be able to voice our opinions, even if they don't tally with those of others. Or else what is the point of a forum :001_smile:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Making no one person's *opinions* any more valid than another's.


Though it is rather worrying when those opinions may be detrimental to an animal and it's general welfare 

But ultimately of course OP (generalising) has the privilege of simply choosing whatever suits, even if information is out of date and of dubious origen ...

But that I guess is the wonderful world of furums :scared:


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I don't think the issue was that you can't voice your opinions. Not seen anywhere where this hasn't been allowed. It's the civil part that some seem to struggle with.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> It's starting to feel a like a court of law at times
> 
> I agree with what you say. As I am sure you will agree, we need to civil, but should be able to voice our opinions, even if they don't tally with those of others. Or else what is the point of a forum :001_smile:


yes of course i agree
no one was more shocked than me when the lady from this thread posted about deliberately breeding the other cat who was polydactyl and then we got told we couldnt discuss that and the post got closed down and then we got told again on this thread that we couldnt mention it at all. 
in the other forum i post on rude posts are just removed but we are allowed to discuss controversial things
I would rather see the bad posts removed and normal civil discussion allowed


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> I don't think the issue was that you can't voice your opinions. Not seen anywhere where this hasn't been allowed. It's the civil part that some seem to struggle with.


i have been civil to you all along but I think you have trouble with me because you dont think my words are neutral enough
i dont know how to make them any more neutral AND ensure they still have meaning


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I'm not meaning you in particular. In general people could stand to have a nicer tone around here. Please don't take anything I say as personal against you, I am generalising


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> yes of course i agree
> no one was more shocked than me when the lady from this thread posted about deliberately breeding the other cat who was polydactyl and then we got told we couldnt discuss that and the post got closed down and then we got told again on this thread that we couldnt mention it at all.
> in the other forum i post on rude posts are just removed but we are allowed to discuss controversial things
> I would rather see the bad posts removed and normal civil discussion allowed


I was pretty shocked too.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Though it is rather worrying when those opinions may be detrimental to an animal and it's general welfare
> 
> But ultimately of course OP (generalising) has the privilege of simply choosing whatever suits, even if information is out of date and of dubious origen ...
> 
> But that I guess is the wonderful world of furums :scared:


True, that is that world of forums. If we try to educate people without preaching to them then perhaps the detrimental, outdated and dubious information will be disregarded in favour of those opinions that do consider animal welfare more carefully.
This thread has not been closed or censored because I believe that we all have a right to express our opinions but I also believe that we should be able to do so without being bullied into accepting the *opinions* of others.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Making no one person's *opinions* any more valid than another's.


I agree with Amethyst on this,there are opinions and then there are "opinions".Where animal safety and care is an issue some opinions will always be more valid than others,and I will ,where I think an animals health and or safety is at risk,be loudly voicing my opinions.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> Where animal safety and care is an issue some opinions will always be more valid than others,and I will ,where I think an animals health and or safety is at risk,be loudly voicing my opinions.


I should hope so too :thumbup:

Ideas and information available to us change constantly and what may have been considered okay and acceptable to do 10 or 20 years ago, becomes obsolete an bad practise now.

Nowhere is it more true in animal welfare and husbandry, just like other areas of life. Much of what I did during my nurse training 20 years or so ago is now totally outdate, even basic and practical things.

That's life, it does nobody or their animals any good to get trapped in the time warp of "The good old days" :frown2:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> what I say is not rubbish
> it is a view accepted by 99% of good breeders and vets.


You have the statisitical evidence to back that up, do you? Reference please?

Liz


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

lizward said:


> You have the statisitical evidence to back that up, do you? Reference please?
> 
> Liz


I knew someone would post that.. nearly did myself earlier.. :lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> But ultimately of course OP (generalising) has the privilege of simply choosing whatever suits, even if information is out of date and of dubious origen ...


Would the dubious origin be me or the two vets?

Don't bother answering, we all know the answer don't we. I won't be playing, I'm afraid, I have a degree to finish by May 5th or I lose it, and I have half a year's work to do still. Enjoy yourselves, see you later in May.

Liz


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> You have the statisitical evidence to back that up, do you? Reference please?
> 
> Liz


as soon as you provide the statistical evidence and references that its safe
which you cant because you know its not safe and you know it should only be used a last resort measure


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> I knew someone would post that.. nearly did myself earlier.. :lol:


I dont find this funny maybe because I have had kittens die because of pooling
try having a nice healthy litter and introduce kittens from an another litter because their mother had to be put down then watch all get sick and half of them die. You wont laugh much then.

The original poster in this thread is taking a huge risk with two litters of kittens for NO reason. I hope for her both litters survive this gamble.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> I dont find this funny maybe because I have had kittens die because of pooling
> try having a nice healthy litter and introduce kittens from an another litter because their mother had to be put down then watch all get sick and half of them die. You wont laugh much then.
> 
> The original poster in this thread is taking a huge risk with two litters of kittens for NO reason. I hope for her both litters survive this gamble.


I agree it's not a laughing mater, but indicative of a lackadaisical approach to breeding 
I admire you for saying it has happened to to your kittens and you have learned form it.

However threads like this serve a valid purpose as they may make the occasional person looking for a kitten, aware that "pooling" without valid reason is not a good way to raise kittens ... So if and when they see it done, they walk away from that breeder :thumbup:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> I dont find this funny maybe because I have had kittens die because of pooling
> try having a nice healthy litter and introduce kittens from an another litter because their mother had to be put down then watch all get sick and half of them die. You wont laugh much then.
> 
> The original poster in this thread is taking a huge risk with two litters of kittens for NO reason. I hope for her both litters survive this gamble.


So.. Where are your statistics then.. Im sure many people here are waiting to see the evidence of your statistics.. 

I don't breed I don't intend to breed.. 
Have you seen how many cats are in rescue, regardless of type/breed? 
I'm not against breeding.. But so think there is a time.. And to be honest with the current rescue situations like they are.. Well, I personally don't feel there is a need.. But it doesn't mean once a litter is born I don't think all the kittens are cute.. But it doesn't make me want to Rant at people about there wrongs and rights!
I feel the same about dogs.. Yes I have had a litter.. But If I knew then what i know now.. I wouldn't have had a litter of my weimaraner!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I think it's not so much about statistics but common sense to be honest


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I think it's not so much about statistics but common sense to be honest


Exactly depending on circumstances.. But if you state something like that you must expect people to ask for the evidence.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

This is getting a bit silly  I don't know who first mentioned 'show me the statistics' but that's a very convenient comment to hide behind as we all know that there are no published statistics from any specific study.

But if anyone cares to Google some of the myriad feline health problems encountered by both breeders and shelters alike you will find countless reasons why, unless absolutely unavoidable, it is far, far better not to 'pool' kittens.

It's something of a no-brainer really.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Statistics are as useful as people desire them to be in my thoughts anyway, anything can be proven or disproven with the right research  

Commonsense is the best approach in much animal care and with tiny kittens or puppies, anything that minimises risk has to be the best way to go


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I think its not something to hide behind.. But if someone states, what was previously stated then people will ask.. I understand why cats are no longer pooled by some breeders.. I understand the risks to the cat/kittens.. I understand the reasons My mum had to do it with her foster cats.. 
I also understand that if research was done into this you could prove either way.. There are pro's and con's to everything..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I think its not something to hide behind.. But if someone states, what was previously stated then people will ask.. I understand why cats are no longer pooled by some breeders.. I understand the risks to the cat/kittens.. I understand the reasons My mum had to do it with her foster cats..
> I also understand that if research was done into this you could prove either way.. There are pro's and con's to everything..


That's my point though; we don't need studies and research into feline infectious diseases in relation to pooling litters and overcrowding which is practised by some breeders. The big clue is in the word "infectious". If anyone (speaking generally) does not think these can be very common in multi-cat households - particularly breeding households. I accept that in some situations it is unavoidable but for an experienced breeder to say here that it is perfectly acceptable and regarded as the norm is just wrong.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> That's my point though; we don't need studies and research into feline infectious diseases in relation to pooling litters and overcrowding which is practised by some breeders. The big clue is in the word "infectious". If anyone (speaking generally) does not think these can be very common in multi-cat households - particularly breeding households. I accept that in some situations it is unavoidable but for an experienced breeder to say here that it is perfectly acceptable and regarded as the norm is just wrong.


Agree entirely


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> That's my point though; we don't need studies and research into feline infectious diseases in relation to pooling litters and overcrowding which is practised by some breeders. The big clue is in the word "infectious". If anyone (speaking generally) does not think these can be very common in multi-cat households - particularly breeding households. *I accept that in some situations it is unavoidable but for an experienced breeder to say here that it is perfectly acceptable and regarded as the norm is just wrong.*


That is your right to say it..  But Im sure I ave said somewhere before.. Sometimes it is the way that it is said.. 
And nope I dont think all cute and fluffy .. Sometimes I read things and am outraged.. My head is spinning round on my shoulders.. But I still try to put points across but I guess I just don't think some ways are the best way to get them there... 
A good few years ago I didn't see the problem with breeding litters etc.. Possibly pooling cause obviously I had been brought up seeing that when needed.. 
I now realise with reading lots and lots and speaking to people and seeing how many pets that we all so call love so much are in rescue.. 
I don't see the point in breeding your own cat.. And then doing good by taking in another cat who is pregnant on foster/adoption.. I see that as being a bit two faced? But Im not here to be judging everyone.. Im here cause I love my pets love to hear about all of yours and see pictures and read updates..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

For anyone interested or cat-geeky enough to be bothered to read it  Here's a link to a chapter from Dr Neils Pedersen's book on Feline Husbandy, Diseases & Management (on which he is the world's leading authority).

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/documents/FelHus Ch4.pdf

It's a bit lengthy but illustrates perfectly the results of overcrowding and/or pooling litters. It is also research based so I make no apology in saying that this is aimed directly at Lizward who I think made the initial post about 'show me the statistics'.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> as soon as you provide the statistical evidence and references that its safe


I have claimed no statistical studies, you made the claim. Back it up, or retract.

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I have claimed no statistical studies, you made the claim. Back it up, or retract.
> 
> Liz


You are back ... Wow, doesn't time fly ... May already :scared:

*Only joking*


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Can we not let this descend into a personal slanging match please?
We all know that there will not be any agreement here., neither party is going to retract anything.
I think gskinner has provided some research backed evidence. Lizward has not claimed to have anything other than anecdotal evidence. Can we leave it at that.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

Have these mums been virus tested?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Thank you, Gskinner (is it Gary?) for posting that. It is great to have some proper evidence put forwards. There are a few things all of us would do well to note from that document: in particular, the idea that pedigree matings produce healthier kittens, which is frequently touted on this forum, is rubbish. We may not like that, but it is true. The healthiest kittens, from that document, come from the moggy owner who has one cat from which she breeds moggy litters. The sooner all of us get off our high horses and acknowledge that simple fact, the better for everyone.

The extreme scenario presented in that document, 25 breeding cats all producing litters in a domestic environment, is a long way (I hope!) from what any of us are doing. That sort of scenario would have the RSPCA and the Environmental Health down on us like a ton of bricks. The OP has two cats, both vaccinated, both vet checked, and the vets who have seen them have told her it is fine to pool the litters. I don't think we have any grounds to disagree with two vets. Even if we were vets ourselves, I don't think we would be disagreeing with professional colleagues without having seen the cats.

As far as norms are concerned, the norm in the breeding circles I know is that pooling is fine (assuming similar aged kittens and assuming the Mums want it). Clearly in your circles it isn't regarded as fine. That's OK. No-one is asking you to pool your litters.

Since I doubt that any of us knows 100 breeders or vets, and there have been no statistical studies, catsmum's claim was nothing more than a throwaway remark with nothing whatsoever to back it up, and it would be good if she would simply admit to that.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> You are back ... Wow, doesn't time fly ... May already :scared:
> 
> *Only joking*


Just a breakfast break. I really cannot get too involved in this. Once I get involved in a debate on PF it tends to go on for about three days 

Right, back to work, sigh.

Liz


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> *Can we not let this descend into a personal slanging match please?*.


Following on from another thread, where I read a comment pretty much like this, I'm rather confused as to where the 'personal slanging match' comment has come from  I have found out some interesting facts from following this thread and have only witnessed debate/difference of opinion - no personal slanging match, unless of course a poster's 'joke' to another could be taken the wrong way 

Interventions such as this are becoming more and more prevalent on PF. I understand the need for threads to be monitored on a regular basis, but it appears 'slanging match' is open to interpretation; I see no evidence of a slanging match and now have concerns that *this* thread will be closed/moved and yet another learning tool will vanish into PF cyber space 



Doolally said:


> Have these mums been virus tested?


Interesting question. I hope the OP answers and the thread stays open so I can watch and learn


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I am not going to close this.
The argument is personal in places - I didn't say it was a slanging match, I am just asking that it does not get to that - we know very well that it can and does happen.
It is my job to ensure that people can have their say without being intimidated into thinking otherwise. I have to sit on the fence here and duck for cover when I get shot at for trying to keep this calm :scared:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It's Denise. Where gskinner came from is a long, boring story 

It's quite a while since I considered pedigree cats to be inherently more healthy than non-pedigree; that was a notion I was disabused of some years ago having seen many infectious diseases (bar FeLV and FIV) in the cats I have purchased, owned and bred. Not that pedigrees are intrinsically more prone to infectious disease, of course, but as a result of environmental, husbandy and management factors.

I thought I had made it quite clear in a much earlier post that I wasn't referring specifically to the OP's cats; the discussion had shifted more generally onto the subject of pooling litters - though the overlooked fact here is that one of the OP's cats is stated to be a "rescue", taken on when when she was already pregnant. It's unclear (I think?) whether the cat showed up at the op's home and was taken in or if she was adopted, pregnant, from a shelter. Either way that still puts her and her litter at high risk of infectious disease.

The chapter from Pedersen's book, quoting "25 breeding cats" is, patently, an example and has been quoted to highlight his key point which is that infectious disease increases exponentially according to the number of cats in the household. Pooling litters in a multi-cat, breeding household where one undertakes the 'usual' cat breeder activities such as buying in the very occasional kitten, going out to stud, showing, etc, etc, is, in my humble opinion, foolhardy. And I say that as someone who has practised this occasionally in the distant past with dire consequences.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> It's Denise. Where gskinner came from is a long, boring story


O, sorry, no idea why I thought you were Gary!



> The chapter from Pedersen's book, quoting "25 breeding cats" is, patently, an example and has been quoted to highlight his key point which is that infectious disease increases exponentially according to the number of cats in the household.


Yes indeed it does. All of us with large numbers of cats need to take that very much on board.

Liz


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> I have claimed no statistical studies, you made the claim. Back it up, or retract.
> 
> Liz


thank you gskinner for providing the back up this person obviously needs
though why an experienced breeder would need to see this written down beats me
people who dont know the basics shouldnt be breeding

Lizward, I wont retract. 
The only breeders who pool litters, when there is no valid reason to do so, are either lazy or overcrowded, or possibly very very ill informed.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Following on from another thread, where I read a comment pretty much like this, I'm rather confused as to where the 'personal slanging match' comment has come from


I too am very confused.I dont know what I am allowed to say and not to say. I doesnt help not knowing who the "no slanging matches" comments are aimed at.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> That is your right to say it..  But Im sure I ave said somewhere before.. Sometimes it is the way that it is said..


but what does it matter that gskinner says things in different ways than you say them?
she wasnt rude or personal or insulting or bad
she just doesnt say things the way you say them
are we all supposed to talk the same way?

I think I am getting confused here because with you being a moderator it is looking to me more like an official request to speak a certain way than an other posters opinion

my apologies if i am reading this all the wrong way but i am starting to get very confused and worried and scared to say a word incase its the wrong word or I say it in the wrong way


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It's all too easy to find and listen to anecdotes (from breeders, as a result of bitter experience) and references as to why litters, ideally, shouldn't be mixed but no specific studies...presumably as it would be a little like conducting a study into "Is it safer to cross the road with your open or closed?".


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> but what does it matter that gskinner says things in different ways than you say them?
> *she wasnt rude or personal or insulting or bad*
> she just doesnt say things the way you say them
> are we all supposed to talk the same way?
> ...


I never said they were.. 
I wouldn't moderate unless your were well and truly out of line..  
Im not saying we should all speak/type the same.. Just wouldn't happen.. But there are ways to go about things.. 
In real life.. when we say things.. We use facial expressions when we are talking so it easier to see/read what a persons saying.

I dont see a reason to be scared.. I just dont want you peep not be battling..Your all here cause you love your pets.. We all love our pets in a different way.. 

Oh yeah.. Im sure skinner is a bloke..  But you know what.. i could be wrong..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Eyes  Open or closed 

It's quite a difficult subject to get into on a public forum *without* asking what might be considered quite intrusive and personal questions relating to how many cats a breeder owns, how they 'manage' their cats in terms of doing their utmost to limit the introduction and spread of disease and so on and, more pertinently, what health problems they see in their cats/kittens.

I can only make direct comparisons from personal experience (resulting in me keeping a very few cats and not mixing litters) and anecdotal experience of knowing/visiting/talking to other breeders who do things differently. 

When all's said and done, we only have ourselves and those who buy our kittens to answer to. And the cats, if they had a voice.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Eyes  Open or closed
> 
> It's quite a difficult subject to get into on a public forum *without* asking what might be considered quite intrusive and personal questions relating to how many cats a breeder owns, how they 'manage' their cats in terms of doing their utmost to limit the introduction and spread of disease and so on and, more pertinently, what health problems they see in their cats/kittens.
> 
> ...


i like living.. so open..


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner nice way of putting it. if a mother didnt know to teach her children to keep eyes open when they cross the road I would question her ability to be a parent. Much the same with breeders, if they don't know the huge risks of pooling litters for no viable reason I question that persons ability to be a breeder.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> Much the same with breeders, if they don't know the huge risks of pooling litters for no viable reason I question that persons ability to be a breeder.


I'd also question their ability to advise others that it is acceptable ... Just my thoughts of course


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> I too am very confused.I dont know what I am allowed to say and not to say. I doesnt help not knowing who the "no slanging matches" comments are aimed at.


I agree with you, but maybe some posts deemed to be of a "slanging match" nature have been removed 

Guess we must have missed them ... I've certainly seen no evidence of anything out of order, which is good :thumbup:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I'd also question their ability to advise others that it is acceptable ... Just my thoughts of course


*Any one* is entitled to give their advice. *No one* has to take it.
I believe that the OP had made their choice before asking for advice. That they have gone against the majority opinion on here makes me think that. If they have chosen therefore the 'wrong' advice they have to live with the consequences, whatever they might be.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I agree with you, but maybe some posts deemed to be of a "slanging match" nature have been removed
> 
> Guess we must have missed them ... I've certainly seen no evidence of anything out of order, which is good :thumbup:


In the past there have been issues between posters that have become personal and unpleasant. There has not been anything here to that extent. My words are just, to repeat myself, a caution. 
I have found this thread informative and interesting and have no reason to want to see it closed.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Advice given which may be detrimental to an animal is surely always going to be highlighted though 

One would hope so, I couldn't turn a blind eye to outdated or potentially dangerous advice given.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

maybe like you and the other moderator have been saying about its not what is said its the _way_ that its said that is the probem? :yikes:

I find these continuous warnings from moderators quite intimidating and confusing and it looks like I am not the only one.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

catsmum said:


> gskinner nice way of putting it. if a mother didnt know to teach her children to keep eyes open when they cross the road I would question her ability to be a parent. Much the same with breeders, if they don't know the huge risks of pooling litters for no viable reason I question that persons ability to be a breeder.


I have to agree. No breeder is immune to potential health problems in their cats and I include myself in that statement. I've seen, in cats I've owned/bred from over the years, calici, herpes, chlamydia and FIP. To me the crime isn't in experiencing these but how you use that experience, the knowledge you gain from it, how you deal with it and where you go on from there in terms of how to prevent it, as far as humanly possible, from occuring again.

The handful of breeders I have very close, long term friendships with never pool litters, keep only a small number of breeding cats and are, generally speaking, very cautious on breeding related matters. I suppose these are the breeders I have close ties with because you gravitate towards like minded people. Doesn't make us immune to problems nor does it make us somehow better than everyone else... but I'm still left agog at any breeder who invites problems with an open door.

I can only assume that the poster here who said pooling litters is common practice and that it fine for the OP to do so in this case, gave that advice in good faith on the basis that she hasn't been troubled with infectious disease in her cats as so many of us have.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> maybe like you and the other moderator have been saying about its not what is said its the _way_ that its said that is the probem? :yikes:
> 
> I find these continuous warnings from moderators quite intimidating and confusing and it looks like I am not the only one.


I have seen a few points on here where things could go the wrong way.. I have also witnessed some quite offensive posts on these threads in the past...
Posts like that need to be avoided as they help no one.. 
My ruling ... Is Prevention is better than cure..


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Advice given which may be detrimental to an animal is surely always going to be highlighted though
> 
> One would hope so, I couldn't turn a blind eye to outdated or potentially dangerous advice given.


good for you Amethyst. if this kind of detrimental advice isnt highlighted for the danger it is then there is nothing stopping someone posting dangerous things like dont get your cat neutered or rub their nose in their own dirt if they make a litter tray mistake or only feed your cat left over table scraps


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I have to agree. No breeder is immune to potential health problems in their cats and I include myself in that statement. I've seen, in cats I've owned/bred from over the years, calici, herpes, chlamydia and FIP. To me the crime isn't in experiencing these but how you use that experience, the knowledge you gain from it, how you deal with it and where you go on from there in terms of how to prevent it, as far as humanly possible, from occuring again.
> 
> The handful of breeders I have very close, long term friendships with never pool litters, keep only a small number of breeding cats and are, generally speaking, very cautious on breeding related matters. I suppose these are the breeders I have close ties with because you gravitate towards like minded people. Doesn't make us immune to problems nor does it make us somehow better than everyone else... but I'm still left agog at any breeder who invites problems with an open door.
> 
> I can only assume that the poster here who said pooling litters is common practice and that it fine for the OP to do so in this case, gave that advice in good faith on the basis that she hasn't been troubled with infectious disease in her cats as so many of us have.


I take it, it is quite common for cat breeders to have several breeding queens then?


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> I have seen a few points on here where things could go the wrong way.. I have also witnessed some quite offensive posts on these threads in the past...
> Posts like that need to be avoided as they help no one..
> My ruling ... Is Prevention is better than cure..


still doesnt address the point I made about its possibly not what you guys are saying it might just be the amount of times you are saying it and the way you guys are saying it and that fact that your moderators. I know I am not the only one getting the feeling that because 2 moderators are constantly repeating a message that we are feeling slightly intimidated to continue to post our opinions freely.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I
> My ruling ... Is Prevention is better than cure..


Your RULING ... :lol:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Advice given which may be detrimental to an animal is surely always going to be highlighted though
> 
> One would hope so, I couldn't turn a blind eye to outdated or potentially dangerous advice given.


No one has stopped you from saying that you feel some of the advice given has been dangerous and detrimental. It would not be in anyone's interest to do so.
No one has asked you not to post anything like that. I have asked that it be kept as civil as possible, if that makes you or anyone else feel intimidated, I apologise for trying to keep things from turning nasty.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> *Any one* is entitled to give their advice. *No one* has to take it.
> *I believe that the OP had made their choice before asking for advice*. That they have gone against the majority opinion on here makes me think that. If they have chosen therefore the 'wrong' advice they have to live with the consequences, whatever they might be.


You are absolutely right Lymorelynn. But then it begs the question, why ask for advice in the first place? Is it just to inflame other members


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Your RULING ... :lol:


Yes.. I should have worded that better.. In my life.. I think prevention is better than cure.. :lol: I must admit I sounded like Hitler or something there. :lol: I do apologise profusely


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> You are absolutely right Lymorelynn. But then it begs the question, why ask for advice in the first place? Is it just to inflame other members


I do sometimes think so  People often just want to be told that they are doing the right thing and it all goes wrong when people tell them that they aren't 
I'm off to work so feel free to discuss what ever you like while I'm gone


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> You are absolutely right Lymorelynn. But then it begs the question, why ask for advice in the first place? Is it just to inflame other members


Hey who knows.. you all know what people are like in different walks of life.. 

Catsmum.. You have been here since Feb this year.. You haven't seen some of the things said on some of these threads.. They can get quite personal and to the point some members have been banned..  Now if I can prevent any of that and prevent someone from being banned.. Then I will..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I take it, it is quite common for cat breeders to have several breeding queens then?


Yes, I think 'several' would be the most common  Being the number a lot of people feel they can cope with when it comes to not overcrowding in the average size home; not having the (dubious?!) joys of coping with too many litters a year, costs of course, and naturally the problems you can experience from keeping too many cats though I guess "too many" is subjective.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Yes, I think 'several' would be the most common  Being the number a lot of people feel they can cope with when it comes to not overcrowding in the average size home; not having the (dubious?!) joys of coping with too many litters a year, costs of course, and naturally the problems you can experience from keeping too many cats though I guess "too many" is subjective.


I suppose the amount depends on the time experience and money you have.. Cause obviously anything can go wrong quickly as we have found out so many times on this forum.. 

In my early twenties I had a friend breeding Persians.. she only kept 1 queen..  I guess she felt she could put all her time and efforts into her..


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

MoM & Lynn, I'm not sure you're aware but your presence on this thread IS intimidating. Not only that but you seem to be supporting the idea of pooling ... well you certainly aren't discouraging it anyway. That gives a lot of clout to the whole idea, and can influence people.

To the other breeders with good ethics on this thread, or any others reading (and too scared to post) perhaps in future when giving advice we/you should state "In all my years of experience .... I have done this so many times ... I have never had a problem ...etc etc" It might help get the _real_ good advice across.

This is what really bothers me, and to coin a phrase you put in a recent post MoM ... Prevention is better than the cure.

We are not talking about none living objects, we are talking about little defenseless lives. The 'cure' for such crazy advice could be the death of the whole litter/s. Prevention in this case means cutting out as many risks as you possibly can, not increasing them by adding one to another.

The only way things will change is if we discourage the out of date way of doing things. Sometimes the only way to do that is by making it VERY clear it's just not a good idea.

I tried at the beginning of this thread to give many valid reasons why pooling is not a good idea. All ignored, and why? Because someone came on spouting the "I'm an experienced breeder ... blah blah" content, then tried to back pat the OP ... who without a shadow of a doubt had the only reason she needed then to continue with the way she was doing things. After all if an experienced breeder does it it must be OK right?

It is really simple ... Prevention *is* better than the cure. Do everything you can to prevent harm coming to your animals and there is less chance of something terrible happening to them. Taking risks with an animals life is not something any good breeder will do.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> MoM & Lynn, I'm not sure you're aware but your presence on this thread IS intimidating.


thank you for admitting that. I know other people also feel this way but dont feel comfortable enough to admit they feel intimidated as they are scared, like me, that admitting to feeling intimidated will lead to repercussions



Aurelia said:


> Not only that but you seem to be supporting the idea of pooling ... well you certainly aren't discouraging it anyway. That gives a lot of clout to the whole idea, and can influence people.


it also gives me the idea because the the two ladies are moderators that I am not free to voice my polite opinions disagreeing with pooling without getting further obscure warnings

I was also shocked that the moderator who was telling all of us to talk nicely, actually used the "like" button to the person who answered my post with a very non-polite one word reply of "rubbish". I am not saying I am offended that someone says "rubbish" to me, course not. I was quite shocked though that the moderator MoM "liked" a post like this when she is constantly telling the rest of us to watch our words.

So yes it does seem that sides are being taken.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

catsmum said:


> thank you for admitting that. I know other people also feel this way but dont feel comfortable enough to admit they feel intimidated as they are scared, like me, that admitting to feeling intimidated will lead to repercussions
> 
> it also gives me the idea because the the two ladies are moderators that I am not free to voice my polite opinions disagreeing with pooling without getting further obscure warnings
> 
> ...


Thank you Aurelia for raising the very valid points you have. As a long standing respected member, I am glad you see what I see and it's not just my imagination in overdrive.

But, an even bigger thank you to Catsmum, who, as a relatively new member, for caring enough about cat welfare to raise the issue of what *appears* to be favouritism. Coming from a new member, this shows a level of commitment to animal welfare which should be embraced on PF rather than scared off. I notice time and time again comments like 'lets not scare the newbies off' - but these are usually newbies who post inflammatory posts or don't give sound advice. You however are the sort of member who should be encouraged to stick around and I for one hope you do


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> MoM & Lynn, I'm not sure you're aware but your presence on this thread IS intimidating. Not only that but you seem to be supporting the idea of pooling ... well you certainly aren't discouraging it anyway. That gives a lot of clout to the whole idea, and can influence people.
> 
> To the other breeders with good ethics on this thread, or any others reading (and too scared to post) perhaps in future when giving advice we/you should state "In all my years of experience .... I have done this so many times ... I have never had a problem ...etc etc" It might help get the _real_ good advice across.
> 
> ...


I have re read this thread.. Aurelia.. Personally but I guess I am biased.. I can't see me being intimidating to you guys..  So If I have you need to point it out??
Re pooling my point is.. is as stated.. I have seen it done many years ago by my mum.. 
I understand why cats are no longer pooled by some breeders.. I understand the risks to the cat/kittens.. I understand the reasons My mum had to do it with her foster cats.. 
Yes a good point here.. >perhaps in future when giving advice we/you should state "In all my years of experience .... I have done this so many times ... I have never had a problem ...etc etc" It might help get the _real_ good advice across.

I have heard of others doing it.. And that is me saying its ok to do it?

Prevention is better then cure.. Prevention if you bother to read the post

*I have seen a few points on here where things could go the wrong way.. I have also witnessed some quite offensive posts on these threads in the past...
Posts like that need to be avoided as they help no one.. 
My ruling ... Is Prevention is better than cure..* That post nor the post I replied to mentions animals, it was how the poster felt..

Did you read the whole thread Aurelia.. cause to me after reading your post I think not.. 

People may agree with what you say .. Thats fine that is there choice.. But as for being intimidating on this thread I do not believe a moderator has.. You have all said what you want.. and nothing has been taken off this thread.. 
I do know that people avoid posting and asking for advice on here for the fear of some members jumping on them.. 
I am not about to jump opn any one.. Just would like to see this thread stay here..


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> thank you gskinner for providing the back up this person obviously needs


Denise provided a veterinary article which, whilst very welcome, does not make any mention of statistics whatsoever.



> though why an experienced breeder would need to see this written down beats me
> people who dont know the basics shouldnt be breeding


And people who have clearly no idea whatsoever of the meaning of 99% should not try to claim they are experts in anything at all.



> The only breeders who pool litters, when there is no valid reason to do so, are either lazy or overcrowded, or possibly very very ill informed.


And the only people who make silly claims about 99% of vets and "good" breeders, when they have clearly spoken to very few of either, are either lazy or arrogant.

15 luv.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> gskinner nice way of putting it. if a mother didnt know to teach her children to keep eyes open when they cross the road I would question her ability to be a parent. Much the same with breeders, if they don't know the huge risks of pooling litters for no viable reason I question that persons ability to be a breeder.


And your experience and professional qualifications are what, exactly?

Liz


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> I can't see me being intimidating to you guys..  So If I have you need to point it out??


well just for me personally, the one that really intimidated me most was when you "liked" the post when the Lizward person answered me with the single word "rubbish" 
think it's post number 49 or so

the only two people who liked that post was you and gratch, which is VERY ironic because you were the two telling us constantly the importance of being nice and being polite and choosing our words carefully

yet when Lizward said "rubbish" to me you both found that good enough to leave a "like"

why dont you both just come right out and say that you dont mind SOME people being rude but would prefer the rest of to ignore that rudeness but continue to be polite

I dont see how can ask others to be polite when you go around "liking" rude replies like "rubbish"

and the fact you are a moderator just makes it worse, I didnt bother me ha;lf as much that gratch "liked" me getting spoken to with "rubbish"


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lizward said:


> And the only people who make silly claims about 99% of vets and "good" breeders, when they have clearly spoken to very few of either, are either lazy or arrogant.
> 
> 15 luv.
> 
> Liz





lizward said:


> And your experience and professional qualifications are what, exactly?
> 
> Liz


Why is *this* ^^^^^ permitted???? IMO, it's so obviously goading a new member. That is allowed, yet having an opinion and expressing it is frowned up 

Come on Liz, give the junior member a break


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> well just for me personally, the one that really intimidated me most was when you "liked" the post when the Lizward person answered me with the single word "rubbish"
> think it's post number 49 or so
> 
> the only two people who liked that post was you and gratch, which is VERY ironic because you were the two telling us constantly the importance of being nice and being polite and choosing our words carefully
> ...


I would run too
it is a sign of lazy breeding and of over crowded breeding

Rubbish.
Well personally I wouldn't necessarily run.. because you don't know the reason behind the method.. 

So personally I think its a silly excuse..


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I have re read this thread.. Aurelia.. Personally but I guess I am biased.. I can't see me being intimidating to you guys..  So If I have you need to point it out??
> Re pooling my point is.. is as stated.. I have seen it done many years ago by my mum..
> I understand why cats are no longer pooled by some breeders.. I understand the risks to the cat/kittens.. I understand the reasons My mum had to do it with her foster cats..
> Yes a good point here.. >perhaps in future when giving advice we/you should state "In all my years of experience .... I have done this so many times ... I have never had a problem ...etc etc" It might help get the _real_ good advice across.
> ...


Oh dear, oh dear 

Yes I've read the whole thread AND I have held off posting for many reasons, including not wanting to offend you and Lynn as well as feeling like I'm in danger of being banned ... I did say "to coin a phrase you used" ... In other words, to use it but with my spin on it. I didn't pick apart that post of yours, just used a phrase from it 

You and Lynn have been intimidating on this thread (and others). I'm sorry you can't see that 

There is much more damage being done on these forums by intimidating people with good advice than there is 'scaring off' newbies. Newbies ... are you saying you'd rather a newbie with (at best) poor ethics is more welcome, and we should pander to them so they won't leave ... than the regulars who offer (sometimes) life saving advice to people? I think your answer to that is 'no', but I would love some clarity, as I'm sure many others would.

I understand some newbies come here and are genuinly naive about certain things. It only gets rough when the message fails to get through, or some one who thinks they know it all spouts of supporting rubbish that could endanger an animals life.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> Why is *this* ^^^^^ permitted???? IMO, it's so obviously goading a new member.


Presumably because the "new member" started it and therefore should expect to be replied to in the same manner?

Liz


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

catsmum said:


> well just for me personally, the one that really intimidated me most was when you "liked" the post when the Lizward person answered me with the single word "rubbish"
> think it's post number 49 or so
> 
> the only two people who liked that post was you and gratch, which is VERY ironic because you were the two telling us constantly the importance of being nice and being polite and choosing our words carefully
> ...


I liked the post because it made me laugh. The thing is with the 'Rubbish' post is it's basically what you have been saying constantly to Liz, just in alot less words. Sorry if I offended, was just a small amusement in alot of bickering


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> Denise provided a veterinary article which, whilst very welcome, does not make any mention of statistics whatsoever.
> Liz


Liz, I thought you understood. The statistics are contained within the research papers which are shown throughout the chapter and on which Pedersen bases book, as any eminent professional in his field would do.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> And your experience and professional qualifications are what, exactly?
> 
> Liz


look I dont have professional parenting qualifications, but I dont need them to say that only lazy uncaring mums send their kids to school unfed and unwashed

good breeders dont pool litters unless the circumstances warrant it


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Oh dear, oh dear
> 
> Yes I've read the whole thread AND I have held off posting for many reasons, including not wanting to offend you and Lynn as well as *feeling like I'm in danger of being banned *... I did say "to coin a phrase you used" ... In other words, to use it but with my spin on it. I didn't pick apart that post of yours, just used a phrase from it
> 
> ...


*Banned for what???? Having an opinion - and IMO, a VALID one* 



lizward said:


> Presumably because the "new member" started it and therefore should expect to be replied to in the same manner?
> 
> Liz


*Can we just put this one down to over enthusiam from the new member please; not turn it into point scoring?*


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> I liked the post because it made me laugh. The thing is with the 'Rubbish' post is it's basically what you have been saying constantly to Liz, just in alot less words. Sorry if I offended, was just a small amusement in alot of bickering


but you must agree it is ironic that you were the one telling me and others about the tone we use and how we should use neutral words, then the first person to give a rude reply (single word RUBBISH) you come along and "like" it. Like I say, I dont mind, but it is very ironic you say one thing yet do another.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> but you must agree it is ironic that you were the one telling me and others about the tone we use and how we should use neutral words, then the first person to give a rude reply (single word RUBBISH) you come along and "like" it. Like I say, I dont mind, but it is very ironic you say one thing yet do another.


Well maybe we should have explained our likes..


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I have apologised though. The thread WAS getting a bit nasty and I'm unsure of how people can't see this. I don't think the mods are doing anything other than reminding people to keep it civil. Anyway I'm going back to reading the thread as I have no useful advice to give. I'll leave it up to all of you experienced breeders


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> *Banned for what???? Having an opinion - and IMO, a VALID one*


That or trying to deal with something yourself because your request for help gets ignored, and then you're given a warning and told you will be banned if you continue to try and sort it out.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I liked the post because it made me laugh. The thing is with the 'Rubbish' post is it's basically what you have been saying constantly to Liz, just in alot less words. Sorry if I offended, was just a small amusement in alot of bickering


Oh, so the point scoring '15 luv' you also find that amusing as you 'like' that too??

It's very apparent what's happening in this thread, and to be honest it's not very nice at all


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I would run too
> it is a sign of lazy breeding and of over crowded breeding
> Rubbish.
> Well personally I wouldn't necessarily run.. because you don't know the reason behind the method..
> So personally I think its a silly excuse..


I believe, if you read the thread from page 1, the ONLY thing Liz gave as the reason behind her method (of pooling litters) was "it creates happy mums". She went onto say that the downside is you run the risk of cross infection but this is outweighed by the consideration of how happy the mums are.

That's good then. Happy mums but the distinct possibility of two litters of infected kittens rather than one. Where's the ehtic in that? Christ, the OP hadn't even said the younger cat was refusing to feed her kittens or had no milk or any such thing. What terrible advice to give.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> Oh, so the point scoring '15 luv' you also find that amusing as you 'like' that too??
> 
> It's very apparent what's happening in this thread, and to be honest it's not very nice at all


The like was to the rest of the post, the '15 luv' is beyond me but feel free to explain!


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Thank you Aurelia for raising the very valid points you have. As a long standing respected member, I am glad you see what I see and it's not just my imagination in overdrive.
> 
> But, an even bigger thank you to Catsmum, who, as a relatively new member, for caring enough about cat welfare to raise the issue of what *appears* to be favouritism. Coming from a new member, this shows a level of commitment to animal welfare which should be embraced on PF rather than scared off. I notice time and time again comments like 'lets not scare the newbies off' - but these are usually newbies who post inflammatory posts or don't give sound advice. You however are the sort of member who should be encouraged to stick around and I for one hope you do


thank you for your kind words and support. I AM committed to animal welfare but I am just tired of the feeling of favouritism with moderators "liking" things I think are fairly rude, then other people who are polite get veiled-warnings to use nice language heaped on them from the same moderators.

Thank you to those of you who have been nice to me during my stay here. I hope the moderators learn from this that it is not the regular members who are making this new member leave.No its the moderators who have ensured my stay here has been a short one.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I am watching this thread, as an impartial mod.... I cannot offer any advice as I don't know anything about cats, but can we please keep it on topic.
If I for one second thought that anyone was being intimidated by any member or any other mod they would receive a pm from me.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> thank you for your kind words and support. I AM committed to animal welfare but I am just tired of the feeling of favouritism with moderators "liking" things I think are fairly rude, then other people who are polite get veiled-warnings to use nice language heaped on them from the same moderators.
> 
> Thank you to those of you who have been nice to me during my stay here. I hope the moderators learn from this that it is not the regular members who are making this new member leave.No its the moderators who have ensured my stay here has been a short one.


I have explained why I liked that particular post.. But if you choose to iignore that that is your choice.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Yes I've read the whole thread AND I have held off posting for many reasons, including not wanting to offend you and Lynn as well as feeling like I'm in danger of being banned ....


which is why I have decided to jump ship before the ships captains make me walk the gang plank
thank you too for the kind words and for having the courage to address the intimidation that is going on in this thread


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Gratch said:


> The like was to the rest of the post, the '15 luv' is beyond me but feel free to explain!


It's tennis point scoring which is completely irrelevant on this thread, and especially towards a relatively new member that PF claim they don't want to be driving away.

Yeah right


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I believe, if you read the thread from page 1, the ONLY thing Liz gave as the reason behind her method (of pooling litters) was "it creates happy mums". She went onto say that the downside is you run the risk of cross infection but this is outweighed by the consideration of how happy the mums are.
> 
> That's good then. Happy mums but the distinct possibility of two litters of infected kittens rather than one. Where's the ehtic in that? Christ, the OP hadn't even said the younger cat was refusing to feed her kittens or had no milk or any such thing. What terrible advice to give.


I read the thread as you know..
But if someone went and looked at kittens and it was mentioned.. They were pooled.. would you just run or would you actually ask why? 
Personally I would ask why..


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Liz, I thought you understood. The statistics are contained within the research papers which are shown throughout the chapter and on which Pedersen bases book, as any eminent professional in his field would do.


O OK, I haven't read much of it, only the first few pages, there are 126 pages of it after all (I dread to think how big the whole book is!). I have it saved for later but that may be much later.

Liz


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Oh, so the point scoring '15 luv' you also find that amusing as you 'like' that too??
> 
> It's very apparent what's happening in this thread, and to be honest it's not very nice at all


it didnt escape me either that the two people who shout the loudest about manners and talking neutrally are the very people who use the "like" button when snide comments are made.

no its not nice at all


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> well just for me personally, the one that really intimidated me most was when you "liked" the post when the Lizward person answered me with the single word "rubbish"


My name is Liz. Unlike most people here, I am totally open about my name. You are welcome to call me Liz. My surname, unsurprisingly, is Ward.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

This has all gone rather off track. In an attempt to put it back on the rails :

Pooling litters when it's not necessary ** :

Pros:
Less space needed?
It's lazy
I genuinely can't think of any others ...

Cons:
Illness ~ Before there were 4 kittens (1 litter) who got ill, now there are 8 (two litters) who get sick and could die.
Exhausted queen
More kittens = less time for socialisation per kitten by the queen
It's lazy
For breeders ~ a 'who's the mummy' situation could occur
An exhausted queen would need a longer rest before you can breed her again (you would hope )

Please feel free to add to both lists 

** ie, one queen can't feed her kittens for what ever reason, but even then I would make it a surrogacy, not a pooling of litters ... the queen who can't feed would be removed from the situation.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> look I dont have professional parenting qualifications, but I dont need them to say that only lazy uncaring mums send their kids to school unfed and unwashed
> 
> good breeders dont pool litters unless the circumstances warrant it


There you go again, this time you are directly comparing breeders who pool kittens with mothers who don't feed or wash their children. And you expect those who do pool litters to just say "yes, you are quite right, we routinely abuse our cats", do you?

I suspect I know who you are. The style is very familiar and so is the cronyism.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia, why on earth do you think pooling litters means an exhausted queen? You do understand that pooling litters means two litters and TWO mums, don't you?

Liz


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I haven't liked plenty of your snide comments catsmum, I think you should let me off with one  Again I should really leave this alone, don't want it getting nasty. Hopefully it will work out fine for the OP as her intent is to pool the litters anyway. Two vets and an experienced breeder would be enough for me in the same situation.


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## Kia78 (Feb 2, 2011)

lizward said:


> Aurelia, why on earth do you think pooling litters means an exhausted queen? You do understand that pooling litters means two litters and TWO mums, don't you?
> 
> Liz


It doesn't necessarily mean that the two mums are going to do their equal share though does it? (just my opinion)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> *Can we just put this one down to over enthusiam from the new member please; not turn it into point scoring?*


And meanwhile you expect me just to sit back and take the latest "let's all bash Liz" thread and smile sweetly. I see.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Kia78 said:


> It doesn't necessarily mean that the two mums are going to do their equal share though does it? (just my opinion)


Not necessarily, no.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Liz if you really need me to answer that ... well ...

Thanks for quoting Kia :lol:


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Please, this is my final request.... Keep it on topic


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> I haven't liked plenty of your snide comments catsmum, I think you should let me off with one  Again I should really leave this alone, don't want it getting nasty. Hopefully it will work out fine for the OP as her intent is to pool the litters anyway. Two vets and an experienced breeder would be enough for me in the same situation.


you are confusing snide with honest.
your judgement is also clouded by the fact you have a pregnant moggy
like many i dont agree with moggy breeding.
you allowed your moggy to get pregent a good few months after the first time she had a near miss
the near-miss i would have given you the benefit of the doubt
but to have a near miss then end up with an accidentally pregnant cat a good few months later, is in my opinion not the actions of a responsible owner
you hold my voicing of these opinions against me

I dont mind you likeing the sarcastic "rubbish" post left for me. I just wanted to point out to you that you and MoM should practice what you preach


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lizward said:


> And meanwhile you expect me just to sit back and take the latest "let's all bash Liz" thread and smile sweetly. I see.
> 
> Liz


No, I never said that and I don't see any evidence of 'Liz bashing' either. There are differences of opinion on the thread and until it became a 'he said, she said' fiasco, it was interesting. Now it's just getting tedious.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I'll say the same to you about Gratch as I did in the last thread you brought it up out of nowhere in. I will not defend myself about it. I know I have done wrong. Enjoy your cheap shot. Lets keep to the topic at hand eh? Pooling litters. Seems there are valid reasons for and against. Case closed, no?


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## Kia78 (Feb 2, 2011)

I've been following this thread with interest as I find it interesting to see peoples views and their reasons for them on this subject.

I have NEVER bred any cats before but the thought wouldn't even cross my mind to pool litters if I had 2 queens with litters - I don't know why but it just feels wrong to me. And this is before I've heard about the problems it can cause with illness etc.. 

Just the mere thought of it just doesn't sit right with me! Again - just my opinion


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I think if you really think a mod is being impartial you should ask either Mark or Tashi to check it out not do it on the open forum. I will ask you all to please keep this discussion to answers for the op. I think they have recieved all the pros and cons answers.....Jill


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I haven't liked plenty of your snide comments catsmum, I think you should let me off with one  Again I should really leave this alone, don't want it getting nasty. Hopefully it will work out fine for the OP as her intent is to pool the litters anyway. *Two vets and an experienced breeder would be enough for me in the same situation*.


Then IMO you have a lot of reading up to do in a very little amount of time.

Vets don't usually specialise in breeding animals, so I would personally discount any vets advice until I had spoken with several breeders with good ethics rather than one breeder, which would be very foolish.

A word of advice ... Discount (for the time being) all of the PM's you've received and no doubt also the OP with advice from someone claiming to have decades of experience. Speak to other breeders with good ethics then make an informed decision. Unless you want to risk the health and temperament of your girls impending kittens.

That advice is not going to hurt any animal, but going by vet advice (when they probably have no experience in raising animals, but only treating any illness) and that of one single breeder might.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> This has all gone rather off track. In an attempt to put it back on the rails :
> 
> Pooling litters when it's not necessary ** :
> 
> ...


Does anyone have anything to add to the lists, pros or cons?


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## Kia78 (Feb 2, 2011)

Cons - It's just wrong!! 

Sorry but in my head it is - unless extreme circumstances dictate otherwise anyway!


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I've received no PM's from anyone about cat breeding issues other than yourself previously. I do ofcourse welcome any advice people are willing to give. I assure you I'm doing everything I can in the best interest of Gratch including staying up all night researching over my holidays and scouring every inch of my flat and making it immaculate as unfortunately the building I am in is prone to damp. I feel I am well prepared and I wouldn't be in the situation of having two pregnant moggies but if I did and there were issues, I would certainly listen to what Liz had to say. As I would listen to everyone but the manner of delivery would be important.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Does anyone have anything to add to the lists, pros or cons?


you have to know the different stages of the colostrum
day 1 milk is not the same as day 5 milk
day 1 kittens would be missing out on vital parts of the colostrum if drinking day 5 milk


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

catsmum said:


> you have to know the different stages of the colustrum
> day 1 milk is not the same as day 5 milk
> day 1 kittens would be missing out on vital parts of the colustrum if drinking day 5 milk


And when you stated your reasons for running this would have been good information to back your reasons up. 
If not for the posters.. But maybe others who read your post..


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I've received no PM's from anyone about cat breeding issues other than yourself previously. I do ofcourse welcome any advice people are willing to give. I assure you I'm doing everything I can in the best interest of Gratch including staying up all night researching over my holidays and scouring every inch of my flat and making it immaculate as unfortunately the building I am in is prone to damp. I feel I am well prepared and I wouldn't be in the situation of having two pregnant moggies but if I did and there were issues, I would certainly listen to what Liz had to say. As I would listen to everyone but the manner of delivery would be important.


Aye, and I would hope you wouldn't just listen to my advice either 

What are you going to do if she gives birth while you're at work? Is someone going to be with her 24/7 from now until perhaps 2 weeks (at least) after the kittens have arrived?

Sorry for the divert again, perhaps it would be best to start a new thread?


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## Kia78 (Feb 2, 2011)

catsmum said:


> you have to know the different stages of the colostrum
> day 1 milk is not the same as day 5 milk
> day 1 kittens would be missing out on vital parts of the colostrum if drinking day 5 milk


That's actually very informative and useful information to know. I've learned my something new for today lol


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Does anyone have anything to add to the lists, pros or cons?


I understand its an outdated thing to be doing now.. But I am sure many possibly still use the technique.. For whatever reason.. 
Im not saying I agree with it.. But hey ho..


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Gratch said:


> *Two vets* and an experienced breeder would be enough for me in the same situation.


We only have the OP's word that they contacted a vet and as Aurelia so clearly put below, vets don't usually specialise in breeding.



Aurelia said:


> Then IMO you have a lot of reading up to do in a very little amount of time.
> 
> Vets don't usually specialise in breeding animals, so I would personally discount any vets advice until I had spoken with several breeders with good ethics rather than one breeder, which would be very foolish.
> 
> ...


Great post Aurelia, but sadly, it appears that the OP had no intention of taking advice given as they'd already made their minds up about what they were going to do, which leads me to the conclusion that the whole thing was just posted to inflame members as was the OP's previous thread which they asked to be closed PDQ


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> And when you stated your reasons for running this would have been good information to back your reasons up.
> If not for the posters.. But maybe others who read your post..




Damned if you do damned if you don't?


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

In my poll thread I have mentioned it or feel free to ask in PM  Again, I'm not about to hide any information with my Gratch at stake!


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> And when you stated your reasons for running this would have been good information to back your reasons up.
> If not for the posters.. But maybe others who read your post..


please go back and read it already HAS been mentioned


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Damned if you do damned if you don't?


Aurelia.. You know yourself.. its very rarely all can be pleased.. But I thought that was a good snippet.. Im all for explanations if you put a reason up.. I think its informative for everyone who reads.. and it may just be people who are reading and not posting.. You will atleast know you have helped maybe someone..


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Damned if you do damned if you don't?


really how I feel now too

its ok for the other breeder to state that pooling is perfecty fine and safe
The moderator Moment of Madness didnt ask that breeder to back that dubious statement up
but I repeat something already mentioned and I am told by the moderator i should have mentioned it earlier
one rule for one, another for me


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> I read the thread as you know..
> But if someone went and looked at kittens and it was mentioned.. They were pooled.. would you just run or would you actually ask why?
> Personally I would ask why..


I find that extremely difficult to answer without being very candid. Taking my breeder's hat off and removing my accumulated knowledge of cat breeding/rearing kittens it would have never occurred to me that pooling kittens could be a reason for me not to buy a kitten from those circumstances.

With my breeder's hat *on* I would have to say that it depends upon who had bred the kittens. From a breeder/friend who I knew and trusted and who had a good reason for doing so? Yes. From someone recommended to me by a trusted breeder/friend - again, yes. I'd certainly consider it.

Would I consider buying a kitten from Lizward? No. The reasons are many and most of them are historical, based on what Liz has herself said on this forum. Essentially, it would the large number of cats kept; the regular pooling of litters; photographs posted of kittens with pretty bad looking eye infections; deaths of kittens post weaning and other assorted worries I would have based on Liz's comments here.

I'm sorry if this is too 'personal' for comfort. Sometimes clarity is needed if we aren't all to go round in ever decreasing circles.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Aurelia.. You know yourself.. its very rarely all can be pleased.. But I thought that was a good snippet.. Im all for explanations if you put a reason up.. I think its informative for everyone who reads.. and it may just be people who are reading and not posting.. You will atleast know you have helped maybe someone..


But it had already been mentioned! Besides I viewed your post as a telling off for not posting correctly (ie without backup information).

When I initially replied to this thread I missed off a huge amount of things as well. Like the sickness factor, amongst other things. It's easily done when you get into the flow of something else.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> A word of advice ... Discount (for the time being) all of the PM's you've received and no doubt also the OP with advice from someone claiming to have decades of experience. Speak to other breeders with good ethics then make an informed decision.


Point of order. You are clearly referring to me and I have sent no PMs to anyone who has posted on this thread, well, not about this thread anyway, and not for months if ever. I don't send many PMs, in fact, except to reply to those who send them to me, and if I do it is usually because the thread has been closed.

Also I dislike your constant emphasis of "with good ethics" which is clearly intended to give the message that I do not count as having good ethics.

Liz


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> But it had already been mentioned! Besides I viewed your post as a telling off for not posting correctly (ie without backup information).


of course its a telling off, i have had nothing but telling offs from moderators for 2 days now


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> But it had already been mentioned! Besides I viewed your post as a telling off for not posting correctly (ie without backup information).
> 
> When I initially replied to this thread I missed off a huge amount of things as well. Like the sickness factor, amongst other things. It's easily done when you get into the flow of something else.


Yeah I agree totally.. sometimes it is hard to view or take note of everything that has been stated..

gskinner123 Thank you for answering my question..


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Would I consider buying a kitten from Lizward? No. The reasons are many and most of them are historical, based on what Liz has herself said on this forum. Essentially, it would the large number of cats kept; the regular pooling of litters; photographs posted of kittens with pretty bad looking eye infections; deaths of kittens post weaning and other assorted worries I would have based on Liz's comments here.
> 
> I'm sorry if this is too 'personal' for comfort. Sometimes clarity is needed if we aren't all to go round in ever decreasing circles.


well it helped me confirm what I already suspected


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Besides I viewed your post as a telling off for not posting correctly (ie without backup information).


Is that because I have mod status? Or purely because of the way I put it?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I think all the pros and cons have been discussed. Therefore I am closing this, if you have anymore questions OP please start another thread, and other posters if you wish to discuss/debate something you can always give it a go with another thread also...Jill


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