# Herding with GSD



## Moobli

Has anyone else ever had a go at herding with their GSD, or other pastoral breed (other than BCs )?


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## hutch6

No. I've had GSDs pass though my house on many occasions but as they were intended for pets I discouraged any interest in livestock as I do with all of my dogs (inc BCs).

There is some fab youtube footage of GSDs shepherding, such a joy to watch and very different to how a BC does it, very different.

ETA:


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## simplysardonic

Am I right in thinking the herding method of GSDs is different to that of BCs? I read that in a book in the college library & just wondered if it rang true.


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## hutch6

simplysardonic said:


> Am I right in thinking the herding method of GSDs is different to that of BCs? I read that in a book in the college library & just wondered if it rang true.


Yes that is correct. A heck of a lot more patience and stabilitiy around the herd but a GSD is not marked down for mouthing or grabbing a sheep, in fact they are given points for doing so if the situation is correct.

I just put some vids up so you can see the style of the GSD as apposed to the gun-ho BC style of a controlled chase. The GSD is more of a guardian but wants the job done because it understands the danger of having sheep stopping or being away from the flock. You'll notice how the dog can work away from the handler better whereas a BC will always want to to work towards the handler making the look-back (where it leaves one flock to go get another flock) one of the toughest things to teach.


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## Moobli

hutch6 said:


> No. I've had GSDs pass though my house on many occasions but as they were intended for pets I discouraged any interest in livestock as I do with all of my dogs (inc BCs).
> 
> There is some fab youtube footage of GSDs shepherding, such a joy to watch and very different to how a BC does it, very different.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> Lenz vom Dolderbrunnen - YouTube
> 
> Brix HGH Part 1 - YouTube
> 
> Brix HGH part 2 - YouTube


To discourage interest in livestock is definitely the most sensible option for pets, I totally agree :thumbup:

While my collies are all working sheepdogs, my GSDs have always been taught from a young age that livestock was a no no for them.

However, I started last year to train my working line shepherd on our sheep, and he is doing well. It is quite difficult as we have flighty, hill sheep, but we are plugging away and we both enjoy it. He is safe around the stock now, and can help when gathering and driving sheep but only with the help of the collies at this stage. I am not sure we will ever be able to contain, gather or drive on our own but the training is fun and interesting.

Thanks for the utube links. Ulf Kintzel is a highly respected HGH dog handler and trainer.


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## Moobli

simplysardonic said:


> Am I right in thinking the herding method of GSDs is different to that of BCs? I read that in a book in the college library & just wondered if it rang true.





hutch6 said:


> Yes that is correct. A heck of a lot more patience and stabilitiy around the herd but a GSD is not marked down for mouthing or grabbing a sheep, in fact they are given points for doing so if the situation is correct.
> 
> I just put some vids up so you can see the style of the GSD as apposed to the gun-ho BC style of a controlled chase. The GSD is more of a guardian but wants the job done because it understands the danger of having sheep stopping or being away from the flock. You'll notice how the dog can work away from the handler better whereas a BC will always want to to work towards the handler making the look-back (where it leaves one flock to go get another flock) one of the toughest things to teach.


The BC and the GSD work very differently because they are actually doing two different jobs with very different types of sheep and under different conditions.

The BC is a herder, a driver and a gatherer. There is no secret that BCs are the premier sheep herding dog for farmers and shepherds in the UK (and much of the world). They are masters of speed, strong eye and the inherent instinct to gather flocks over large areas and away from the shepherd. The BC is required to gather over huge ages of often hilly or mountainous ground, and has the skills to get around flocks, stalk them so they gather together and then move them toward the shepherd, who can be a long distance away. BCs work in a quiet, concentrated manner and are ideal for use on the wild, hill sheep seen in Wales, Northern England and Scotland, who may not have contact with people for many weeks at a time.

The GSD is a tender. Tending is the act of keeping large flocks of sheep gathered in one area and keeping the flock in orderly movement, with the stockman at the head of the flock, by patrolling alongside the flock. It is a holdover from the traditional German open field system of intensive agriculture - something we do not see in the UK. The GSD was effectively a "living fence", patrolling up and down furrows which are between plots of crops (which the sheep should not be allowed to stray on to). These are known as the grazes. The GSDs job was to keep the sheep in their allocated are and off the valuable crops. When grazing was over, the dog must help move the sheep back to the folds, keeping the line alongside the sheep to move them out of traffic, and to keep them in an orderly fashion.

This style of herding is still in place in Germany today. There is a SV breed performance test in herding (as shown in the utube clips) known as the HGH trial, and is a course designed to demonstrate the tending skills needed.

Sorry for the long post


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## proventilat

there is a great deal that can be learned about the German shepherd dog by understanding its roots and by observing it work under the guidance of a skilled shepherd in the field performing the tasks it was originally bred to do  namely controlling, containing, watching over and protecting the flocks on the road and in the pasture.


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## northnsouth

Interesting viewing, I have seen some others before .The GSD seems to work almost in grids, more methodically than the BC.
Thanks for them. 
Moobli a video would be good if you were ever able to film yours working together


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## tubeviews

The German Shepherd herding dog was originally bred to control large flocks of 200 to 1,000 or more sheep. This task not only requires appropriate instincts, but it also requires courage and sound nerves. For example, Manfred Heyne loves to tell the story about how a friend of his brought his SchH III dog to him to show how any trained schutzhund dog could control sheep. Manfred told his friend to place his dog in front of the barn door to prevent the sheep from going in. Manfred proceeded to lead his flock out of the field and back toward the barn. As the large flock approached, the dog got up, ran into the barn and jumped out an open window in the back to escape.


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## Moobli

northnsouth said:


> Interesting viewing, I have seen some others before .The GSD seems to work almost in grids, more methodically than the BC.
> Thanks for them.
> Moobli a video would be good if you were ever able to film yours working together


I do have some short video clips, but they were taken last year when I first tried Zak on sheep. I will try and get some more recent film once lambing is over


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## Moobli

tubeviews said:


> The German Shepherd herding dog was originally bred to control large flocks of 200 to 1,000 or more sheep. This task not only requires appropriate instincts, but it also requires courage and sound nerves. For example, Manfred Heyne loves to tell the story about how a friend of his brought his SchH III dog to him to show how any trained schutzhund dog could control sheep. Manfred told his friend to place his dog in front of the barn door to prevent the sheep from going in. Manfred proceeded to lead his flock out of the field and back toward the barn. As the large flock approached, the dog got up, ran into the barn and jumped out an open window in the back to escape.


Haha - great story.

One thing my boy doesn't lack is courage and sound nerves :thumbup1:


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## diefenbaker

Moobli said:


> Haha - great story.
> 
> One thing my boy doesn't lack is courage and sound nerves :thumbup1:


Moobli there is only one way to describe this picture. It's 'kin awesome.


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## FEJA JUODAS

hutch6 said:


> No. I've had GSDs pass though my house on many occasions but as they were intended for pets I discouraged any interest in livestock as I do with all of my dogs (inc BCs).
> 
> I am pleased to see this comment. I am about to post details of my Groenendael dogs experiences of their own small herd, however, i became concerned at the STRESS of dogs being put through so called HERDING INSTINCT TESTS for a qualification, simply to boast that the dogs have herding instincts....now to me, unless a dog is INTENDED to WORK as a HERDING DOG it is causing unnecessary STRESS to other animals the SHEEP to be CHASED around aimlessly.
> 
> Surely, if herding dogs were needed or USED in REALITY nowadays for such activities, which they are not ! it is best to LEAVE OTHER ANIMALS ALONE ! and CHASING ANIMALS is EASY FOR ANY DOG !
> 
> i saw on YOUTUBE a POODLE herding in to order ducks or chickens recently, THAT WAS WITH USEFUL AIM ! and the intelligence and relationship and understanding of the PURPOSE of the job was obvious ! now i am not saying dogs of ancient descent from herding dogs are not the most suitable for herding, but ! a POODLE can do it too ! and the REAL job is to STOP our dogs chasing animals whether by INSTINCT of HERDING or PREDATION ! it is poppycock to think we have a HERDING DOG that is USEFUL to herd just because it circles around a herd of sheep once or twice out of instinct ! and i say this having had my dog pass such a test ! but i can assure you ! i never thought that was the end of the matter ! CONTROL of my dog is FAR MORE IMPORTANT that seeing her run around some sheep aimlessly like that !


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## Moobli

FEJA JUODAS said:


> hutch6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. I've had GSDs pass though my house on many occasions but as they were intended for pets I discouraged any interest in livestock as I do with all of my dogs (inc BCs).
> 
> I am pleased to see this comment. I am about to post details of my Groenendael dogs experiences of their own small herd, however, i became concerned at the STRESS of dogs being put through so called HERDING INSTINCT TESTS for a qualification, simply to boast that the dogs have herding instincts....now to me, unless a dog is INTENDED to WORK as a HERDING DOG it is causing unnecessary STRESS to other animals the SHEEP to be CHASED around aimlessly.
> 
> *Surely, if herding dogs were needed or USED in REALITY nowadays for such activities, which they are not* ! it is best to LEAVE OTHER ANIMALS ALONE ! and CHASING ANIMALS is EASY FOR ANY DOG !
> 
> i saw on YOUTUBE a POODLE herding in to order ducks or chickens recently, THAT WAS WITH USEFUL AIM ! and the intelligence and relationship and understanding of the PURPOSE of the job was obvious ! now i am not saying dogs of ancient descent from herding dogs are not the most suitable for herding, but ! a POODLE can do it too ! and the REAL job is to STOP our dogs chasing animals whether by INSTINCT of HERDING or PREDATION ! it is poppycock to think we have a HERDING DOG that is USEFUL to herd just because it circles around a herd of sheep once or twice out of instinct ! and i say this having had my dog pass such a test ! but i can assure you ! i never thought that was the end of the matter ! CONTROL of my dog is FAR MORE IMPORTANT that seeing her run around some sheep aimlessly like that !
> 
> 
> 
> Re: your comment in bold - herding dogs are still used and needed very much by many farmers and shepherds across the world
> 
> I do understand your feelings on sheep being stressed unnecessarily by out of control dogs, simply for a herding instinct test. However, that is not what we are discussing here.
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