# Sticky  Is your cat peeing or pooing in the house? This is the HOUSE SOILING thread!



## Ceiling Kitty

*Is your cat peeing or pooing in the house? You are not alone!*

House-soiling is a very common problem in domestic cats. In the States, around 72% of all cats given up to rescue shelters are euthanased, and for many of them problems with house soiling are the reason. Fortunately I don't often have to PTS healthy cats, but those I have done have almost all been down to house soiling issues.

*Many of these cats can be helped. Many of these owners can be helped.*

I've started this thread to try and help cats who are soiling in the house. For some of them, it can be the difference between life and death!  Much of this information is based on the excellent new Guidelines on Feline House Soiling recently published by the AAFP/ISFM. The full article is free to view and can be viewed here: AAFP and ISFM Guidelines for Diagnosing and Solving House-Soiling Behavior in Cats Alternatively, I've tried to summarise it and simplify a few things below.

There is a wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum; I hope others will post their thoughts or advice on this thread to help other cat owners to help their house-soiling cats.

Thread contents
Part 1: Normal marking and elimination behaviour in cats
Part 2: Why cats might pee or poo in the wrong place
Part 3: Creating the ultimate litter tray!
Part 4: Understanding the five pillars of a healthy feline environment
Part 5: Ruling out medical causes of house soiling
Part 6: How to tackle urine marking
Part 7: Cleaning up after house soiling
Part 8: I've done all that - what now?

*
Part 1: Normal marking and elimination behaviour in cats*

Kittens learn to use litter trays, where provided, around the age of 5-7 weeks of age. They may start by lying down in the trays, but progress to covering their wee and poo by around 7-8 weeks.

Cats usually squat quite low down when they go for a wee, adopting a more raised posture to poo.

A weeing cat:









A pooing cat:









Cats prefer a private location to toilet, often opting for secluded spots when outside. The litter tray must be positioned somewhere in the house that satisifies this desire for privacy (more later). They also toilet away from any food or water sources, and away from resting areas. Nobody wants to wee and poop where they sleep and eat - cats are the same!

Marking is different to regular elimination. Cats use four ways of marking their environment:
1. Rubbing - glands in the cat's face spread pheromones onto furniture, people and other pets when they rub their faces against them.
2. Scratching - this leaves visual marks on surfaces and deposits scent from glands between the footpads.
*3. Urine spraying* - as the name suggests.
*4. Middening* - deposition of faeces in strategic locations, for the purpose of marking territory as opposed to simply 'going for a poo'. This is less common than urine spraying.

Understanding urine spraying

Cats usually spray urine against vertical surfaces. They park their bottom at the surface, raise their tail and may be seen to 'twitch' slightly as they spray. Some cats will also squat down and spray on a horizontal surface as well. The volume of urine sprayed is usually quite small, and is unrelated to the 'regular' urine the cat routinely passes in the litter tray.

A cat spraying:








*
Cats spray for three main reasons:*

1. Sexual behaviour - cats spray to advertise their presence to members of the opposite sex. Both sexes spray for this reason. Neutering will greatly reduce this type of spraying - though it's a common misconception that it will stop it altogether. Around 10% of neutered male cats will continue to spray, and around 4% of neutered female cats will.

2. Territorial spraying - cats spray to leave their scent as a 'calling card' to other cats. Cats are non-confrontational and do not usually communicate with one another directly. Instead, they spray to leave signals for other cats to pick up later and show that they were in the area. This is NOT intended to be threatening towards the other cats - there is currently no evidence to suggest that other cats retreat from spray marks.

3. Reactional spraying - this is a reaction to any kind of stress. Any change in the cat's environment may make it feel as thought it needs to leave its own scent around the place to reduce its anxiety. This can be achieved by spraying.

Obviously, reasons 1 and 2 are normal - number 3 suggests a problem, and cats that spray indoors need help to make them feel more secure.

Why do cats go back to spray in the same place again and again?
The urine odour in the environment changes over time. Cats will return to mark the same place again frequently, to keep refreshing the scent.

Why do cats mark certain inanimate objects?
Some objects, by their very nature, are more vulnerable to being sprayed by cats. These items are those that disrupt the normal odour of the household. The cat will mark these to make them smell more of 'home'. Examples include:
- electrical items that warm up - toasters, ovens etc
- items that change in scent frequently - bags, shoes etc

*
Part 2: Why cats might wee or poo in the wrong place*

There are four main diagnoses for house-soiling cats:

*1. Medical causes*
- FLUTD (feline lower urinary tract disease eg bladder stones, UTI, bladder tumours) - causes uncomfortable and/or urgent urination
- chronic kidney disease - causes excessive urination
- diabetes mellitus - causes excessive urination
- arthritis or other musculoskeletal pain - can make it difficult for the cat to reach and use the litter tray
- hyperthyroidism - can cause behavioural changes including confusion
- cognitive dysfunction/dementia - can cause confusion

*2. FIC (feline idiopathic cystitis)*
This is a complex condition of cats that focusses around the bladder, but can also involve other parts of the body as well. There is no test that can diagnose it. It causes abnormal urination, bloody urine, painful urination and, sometimes (particularly in male cats), blockage of the bladder. Some more information on FIC can be found in this thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-heal...ystitis-afternoon-reading.html#post1063656149

*3. Marking behaviour*
As we know from part one of this post, some marking behaviour is normal in cats. However, when it happens inside the house or when caused by stress it is considered abnormal. Stress is VERY complex in cats - please don't write it off in your cat without reading through first.

*4. Elimination due to problems with the environment or for social reasons*
This can relate to problems with the type or location of the litter trays, interactions between cats preventing normal access to the litter tray or issues with people in the household stopping normal use of the litter tray.

*IMPORTANT NOTE: There may be more than one reason why a cat soils in the house!*
For example, a cat may suffer with arthritis that prevents him or her climbing into the litter tray, and this could be treated with pain medication. However, it may not solve the problem if the cat has built up a negative association with the tray (ie they associate using it with pain) and therefore have a behavioural aversion to it as well.

*The key to solving feline house soiling problems is to understand why they are happening in the first place!*

Here are some reasons that are *NOT* why a cat might pee or poo in the house:
- spite
- 'naughtiness'
- sulking
- anger
- trying to punish the owner for something
Seriously, cats don't have the capacity to do this. If your cat is peeing on the mat near the door, it's not because they are cross that you won't let them out. There is something else going on. Look for it, and do what you can to help them.

Let's have less of this:











And more of this:


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Part 3: Creating the ultimate litter tray!*

Whatever the reasons behind your cat's house soiling problem, a review and revamp of your litter tray situation will always help. The AAFP/ISFM Guidelines advise an overhaul of litter trays in every category of house soiling. Here's how:

*Number of trays*
*Make sure you have an adequate number of trays for your household.* This section should really be called 'creating the ultimate litter trays', as ideally you will never have just one tray.

Points to consider
- the rule of thumb is one tray per cat, plus one extra. So, if you have three cats, you need at least four trays.
- cats in the same social group* may be willing to share trays.
- two trays next to each other will be seen as just one big tray by the cat - you need to place them in separate locations.
- you should have at least one tray per floor of your house.

*_cats in a household naturally divide themselves into social groups, where all the cats are happy to eat and sleep together. You may be lucky enough to have one big social group, but usually you have two or more. A social group may consist of just one cat, so it is possible to have just two cats in your household and yet two social groups. *It is important to know how many social groups you have in your house, and to manage them separately.* Please read:_ http://www.cats.org.uk/uploads/documents/cat-care-leaflets-2013/EG11_Cats_living_together.pdf _(especially page 5)_

*Size of trays*
*Make sure all the trays you have are a sufficient size for your cats.* Litter trays that are too small can be awkward and uncomfortable for cats to use, or may result in overflow of urine/poo over the side of the tray. Waste and odours also build up faster in smaller trays, which will put many cats off using them.

Points to consider
- aim for a tray that is 1.5x the length of your cat from their nose to the base of their tail.
- an adequate size for the average cat is about 50x40cm. Large breeds such as Maine Coons may need a much larger tray.
- if you can't find a tray big enough, improvise - see section on 'types of trays'.

*Types of trays*
*Make sure you provide the right type of litter tray for your cat.* Cats are individuals and have different preferences as to the type of litter tray they like to use. Sometimes it comes down to practical reasons too - consider your cat's age and any medical conditions they have when choosing trays.

Points to consider
- if you have more than one cat, you may need to provide more than one type of tray.
- a 2012 study showed that cats were split about 50-50 as to whether they preferred an open tray or a covered one.
- open trays are preferable whenever possible as they don't hold odours quite as much, and are easier to monitor and clean.
- a high-sided box can protect your walls from wayward urine and help cats feel more secure. Make sure there is a low side so your cat can get in and out easily - especially if they are elderly or arthritic.
- improvise if you need to! A plastic storage box with a side cut out (cover sharp edges with duct tape) is large and readily available. Concrete mixing trays from DIY stores make good trays as well.

The high sides on this home-made litter box will protect your walls from getting peed on - note the low entrance point for old or stiff cats. I would advise covering the sharp edges with duct tape, though:









Here's another. Not all cats will like the really high sides - some prefer to be able to see out when they are going to the toilet, so they can't be crept up on!









*Location of trays*
*Make sure the trays are in the right place!* This is REALLY important. If the trays are in an unfavourable location you will find that your cats may not use them at all, or will find it so stressful using them that they soon give up and pee/poo elsewhere instead.

Points to consider
- do not place trays close to food/water bowls or resting areas. Cats do not like to toilet where they eat or sleep (would you?). Ideally trays should be in a separate room to these areas.
- don't put trays right next to each other unless you count them as one large tray.
- place trays in quiet locations away from household 'traffic'. Cats will feel stressed using a tray in a hallway where people, dogs etc are constantly going past and may seek somewhere more private to pee or poo.
- if you have more than one cat, consider how they interact throughout the house. Some cats can block others from using trays, or sit and stare at them while they are toileting. Try to place trays to minimise this type of behaviour.

*Type of litter*
*Choose a suitable litter that your cat is happy using.* Remember that litter is marketed to people, not cats. Don't choose what YOU like best, choose what you think your cat will like best.

Points to consider
- fill trays to a depth of at least 3cm (1.25"). If the litter is too shallow it can stop the cat from scraping/digging properly.
- cats generally find deodorisers offputting - steer clear if possible.
- try to avoid litter tray liners as well.
- consider adding soil or peat to the tray at first if your cat is used to toileting outside. Gradually mix in the new litter.

*How can you tell if your cat is unhappy with his or her litter trays?*

Well, for a start they won't use it!  But even if they do, watching them in the tray can give you an idea of how comfy they are using it.

Cats with house-soiling problems tend to dig at their litter less than those who don't, so you can sometimes use the amount of digging/scratching in the tray your cat does BEFORE they pee/poo to get an idea of how comfortable they are with the litter. The more comfortable they are, the more digging they'll do.

Perching on the edge of the tray, with only one or two feet inside it, is another sign that the cat is uncomfortable about the litter.

This cat may not be comfortable about the litter in her tray. Note that she's only putting her back feet in:










If you're still not sure, you can conduct a *'litterbox test'*. Provide a number of different types of tray (high-sided vs low-sided, covered vs open) with different litters (wood pellets, soil, Catsan etc) at different depths, and see which your cat prefers. Go with their choice and you'll maximise the chances of them using the trays in the future.

*Managing the litter tray*

Scoop the dirty litter out at least once a day (you may need to do it more often, up to 2-3 times daily). Replenish with fresh litter.

Do a complete litter change weekly.

Wash the litter tray once every 1-2 weeks with soap and hot water. Don't use strong detergents or deodorisers; these can put cats off. Avoid anything ammonia-based. _If your cat has a difficult-to-shift UTI, you may need to wash the tray daily until it is cured._

*Part 4: Understanding the five pillars of a healthy feline environment*

Just like optimising your litter trays, understanding and implementing the five pillars of a happy, healthy feline household is compulsory in all cases of feline house soiling, regardless of the underlying cause.

The full AAFP/ISFM guidelines for feline environmental enrichment can be found here: AAFP and ISFM Feline Environmental Needs Guidelines This really is worth a read for any cat owner, but I've tried to summarise it below for the purposes of this thread.

Here are the five pillars:










*1. Provide a safe place*
Always allow your cat to withdraw from the world if they want to. Provide hiding places, ideally at a height. This will give the cat a feeling of control over their environment and reduce their anxiety.

*2. Provide multiple and separated key environmental resources: food, water, toileting areas, scratching areas, play areas, and resting or sleeping areas*
Every cat in your household should be able to access all of these without being hassled by other cats, other pets or people. Provide separate feeding stations for each cat - never force them to eat together - and ensure there are lots of different resting places. Also provide multiple trays in private locations as outlined in the previous part of this post.

*3. Provide opportunity for play and predatory behaviour*
Boredom causes stress, not to mention obesity (which can predispose to diabetes, arthritis and FLUTD - all on our list of medical causes of house soiling). Play with all your cats every day and stimulate their natural hunting behaviour. Cats respond better to short, frequent bursts of play with different toys - this better resembles hunting than one long session with one toy.

*4. Provide positive, consistent and predictable humancat social interaction*
Bond with your cat. Be kind to them, and initiate/stop cuddles on their terms.

*5. Provide an environment that respects the importance of the cats sense of smell*
In their household, cats recognise a collective odour, which consists of the combined scents of all the people, cats, other pets, furniture etc under that roof. Anything that disrupts this collective odour can cause stress to cats. Try your best to avoid introducing new odours that can disrupt the collective odour - new detergents, new deodorants, new furniture, new pets. Of course, sometimes you have to make these changes - when you do, be aware of the effect they might have on your cat and take measures to ease the transition for them (more later).


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Part 5: Ruling out medical causes of house soiling*

As we saw in part 2, there's a long list of possible medical problems that can cause a cat to soil in the house. Some cats may suffer from one or more of these conditions. What's more, ANY medical condition can cause stress and behavioural changes that might cause a cat to soil.

Obviously, a trip to the vet is the first step in ruling these out - what happens next?
*
Before you go to the vet:*
It is very helpful to create a *'Cat Floor Plan'*. Draw a basic floor plan of your house (it doesn't have to be exactly to scale, don't worry). Mark on it the following things:
- litter tray locations
- windows/doors
- cat flaps
- food/water bowl locations
- scratching posts
- house soiling areas (preferably in order of occurrence if you know - number them)
Your vet may find this information useful when they are asking you questions about your cat's problem and planning tests.

It is also helpful to *collect a urine sample*, if you can, and take it with you to the vet's.

How do I get a urine sample?!
- use a suitable container. Collect a specimen pot from your vet or doctor's surgery, or sterilise a clean jar or plastic container with boiling water and use this.
- if your cat has peed on a non-absorbent surface, such as the kitchen floor, use a syringe or dropper to suck some up. Your vet will be able to provide you with a syringe if you pop in and ask for one.
- non-absorbable cat litters are available (eg Catrine, Katkor). Pop them in the litter tray and syringe up the urine when your cat goes for a pee.
- the fresher the urine sample, the better - anything over 12 hours old is not useful, unfortunately. If you need to pop the sample into the vet's before your appointment, go for it.
- if you can't get a sample, don't panic. In most cases your vet can take a sample by gently popping a needle into your cat's side and into the bladder (more below).

This is Catrine, an example of a non-absorbable litter suitable for obtaining a urine sample from your cat:









*What happens at the vet's?*
The vet will ask you loads of questions about the soiling and about your cat's health in general. They will also examine your cat for signs of any medical disorders, and may recommend further tests based on this.

*What tests might be needed?*
This really depends on the physical examination findings, and whether your cat is peeing or pooing in the house. Your vet will advise you on what the best course of action is. Here are some examples of tests that might be suggested:

Tests for urine soiling
- urine tests* to check the concentration of the urine and rule out UTI.
- abdominal X-rays and/or ultrasound to look for bladder stones.
- blood tests for kidney disease, diabetes and hyperthyroidism.

_*a urine sample caught at home is very useful for basic urine tests. If you are unable to catch a sample at home, or if your vet wants to send urine for bacterial culture, they may take a sample from your cat in the hospital. This is done via *cystocentesis* - gently popping a needle into the cat's side to drain a sample from the bladder. This is painless and takes seconds._

Here's a video of cystocentesis:
[youtube_browser]RVwFi4bKgFY[/youtube_browser]

Tests for faecal soiling
- faecal analysis - always collect poo samples over 3 days if your vet asks for a specimen to be sent away. This is more accurate than a one-off sample.
- rectal exam under sedation or anaesthetic.
- blood tests as for urine soiling.
- abdominal/plevic X-rays.
- if diarrhoea or constipation are involved, further tests to look at bowel function may be needed as well, including more detailed blood tests, abdominal ultrasound scans or intestinal biopsy.

*What if something is found on all these tests?*
You vet will advise you on the best options for treatment or further diagnostics. Hopefully, successful treatment should result in improvement or resolution of the house-soiling signs; however, it's important to be aware that your cat may also have developed some behavioural issues relating to toileting during their illness and there may be more work to do. To re-use an example from earlier - your cat may be diagnosed with arthritis and provided with pain medication, but they still might find it difficult to climb into the litter tray or may be averse to it because they associate it with pain. Using a litter tray with lower sides can help encourage your cat to use the tray again.

*And what if the tests are all clear?*
Then you are looking at a behavioural reason for the house soiling - your cat is either demonstrating marking behaviour, or not using the litter tray because of some environmental reason.
_
NB - extensive tests cannot 100% rule out FIC (feline idiopathic cystitis). This is in itself a diagnosis of exclusion and there is no 'FIC test' that exists to directly rule it in or out._
*

Some notes on the treatment and management of FIC*

A full discussion of FIC is beyond the scope of this thread. Your vet will be able to talk you through the management options, which can involve many of the environmental changes we mentioned here in parts 3 and 4.

Also, iCatCare has an excellent page on the causes, symptoms, diagnosis and management of this complicated and frustrating condition:
Feline idiopathic cystitis (FIC) | international cat care


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## Ceiling Kitty

*Part 6: How to tackle urine marking*

Part 1 of this post told us that urine spraying/marking is a normal behaviour in cats. It is a form of communication between cats for sexual or territorial reasons, or can serve to mark the environment with the cat's scent and help him/her feel more secure within it.

However, it can obviously be a problem when it happens in the house! 

*How do we resolve it? Remove the reasons to spray!*

*Stop spraying for sexual reasons*

Neuter the cat. 'Nuff said.

*Stop spraying for territorial reasons*

1. Cats will return to previously marked areas to refresh the scent, so you need to break the cycle. Clean urine-soiled areas frequently, thoroughly and carefully. There is more on this in part 7 - be warned, it can be a mammoth task and you'll need time and commitment.

2. Improve the cat's territorial security. If they're feeling secure in their territory, they won't feel the need to mark it out.
- identify the social groups in your household (see part 3) and treat them separately: this means separate resting areas, water bowls, scratching posts etc.
- *feed cats alone.* They don't need or want to feel like they are competing for food. It'll stress them out.
- consider physically separating the social groups from one another if possible.
- ensure that no strange cats are looking in from outside (more below).
- review your litter tray locations, as in part 3. Make sure they provide adequate privacy for cats using them.

3. Allow cats to regain group scent when they return from the vet, cattery etc. A cat that returns home from somewhere else will introduce new smells and may encourage other cats to start marking to recreate the 'normal' odour in the house. Confine the re-introduced cat to one room while they regain the scent - rub them with a blanket or piece of clothing from the house, and rub them with a cloth that has also been in contact with cheek glands of the other cat(s).

*Stop spraying due to insecurities and stress*

What are the causes of stress? To eliminate/reduce them, first you need to find them.

If the spraying is happening near external windows/doors or catflaps, then the 'threat' is coming from *outside*. Other cats in the neighbourhood can be a significant source of anxiety for our cats.
- if they're coming through the cat flap, consider using a flap that's activated by a magnet collar or your cat's microchip so that only your own cat(s) have access.
- if they're staring through the windows, consider ways to block them. Block the windows with plants, blinds, opaque/translucent window coverings or temporary frosting.
- put plastic carpet protectors upside-down outside the window/door. This will be uncomfortable and discourage other cats from sitting outside your house and stressing your own cats.
- if your cats are indoor only, investing in motion-activated water sprinklers for the garden can discourage other cats from walking through.

If the spraying is happening around internal doorways or in the middle of rooms, then the 'threat' is coming from *inside*. Again, assess the relationship between your own cats. What else could be a cause of stress? Your dog(s)? Children or other family members? Visitors? Be aware of, and address, these sources as best you can.

Helping reduce stress in cats

*Feliway* is a synthetic version of the feline facial pheromone (the one they spread when they rub their faces on things), which can help create a more welcoming environment for your cat. It is available in two forms:
1. A diffuser that you plug into an electric socket, and it fills the room with the (odourless) pheromones. One diffuser will do one floor of an average-sized house, provided doors are usually open. If you have a lot of doors closed or your house is large then admittedly you will need more. At least place diffusers in the room(s) where the cats spend most of their time. Each refill lasts 4-6 weeks.
2. A spray that can be applied to any new objects introduced into the house, or to any areas that are frequently sprayed on by the cat.

Here is more information about Feliway: Feliway for cats

Other measures include* Zylkene* and *KalmAid*, two non-medicated supplements containing natural remedies to help calm cats. Zylkene is a capsule to be emptied onto food; KalmAid comes as beef-flavoured (crushable) tablets, a caramelly liquid or a gel that you can put on the cats' paws to be licked off. There are no guarantees with these things but they are side-effect free (bar the odd tummy upset) and they don't break the bank. No prescription is needed.

Zylkene: Home
KalmAid: Nutri-Science» KalmAid

A Feliway diffuser:









*Part 7: How to clean up after house soiling*

While you're busy identifying and tackling the causes of your cat's house soiling behaviour, you should also be hard at work removing the traces of pee and poo from your home. This is obviously important for hygiene reasons and your own sanity, but if you can do a good job of removing traces of urine from the environment then you will reduce the chances of your cat re-marking the same spots.

If you can, get your hands on one of these - a UV black light. You can get them for just a few quid online. These will show up urine marks in the house and help you with the cleaning process.








*
Note: with any cleaning products, always test an inconspicuous area first to make sure it doesn't damage or discolour the fabric or surface!

Avoid anything with AMMONIA in it - this smells like urine to cats and will encourage futher marking!
*

*Carpets*

The best solution to use is a 10% solution of normal biological washing powder in warm water. This will remove the protein components of the urine. You will need to clean a *BIG* area - often a patch 2-3 times the size of the urine stain - because the scent will diffuse through the carpet.

After doing this, spraying with isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol - widely available online, or ask your chemist) can help remove the fat component of the urine and complete the job.

The trouble with carpets is that the urine soaks into the underlay and sometimes into the floor itself. You may need to pull up the carpet for a few days and clean the floor separately. If the underlay/foam layer is damp, cut out the affected section and replace it. Use a concrete sealer if appropriate or a polyurethane or other sealant product if there is wood
subflooring/underlay.

In severe/prolonged cases, you may need to actually replace the carpet. 

*Upholstery / fabric furniture*

Use a product intended for these products, such as leather or fabric cleaner. As with carpets, you will need to treat an area 2-3 times larger than the urine patch itself.

*Wooden floors or skirting boards*

The best way to clean these is with a wood soap (such as Murphy's: Murphy Oil Soap - Natural Wood Cleaner for Floors & Furniture) and then seal any gaps with a silicone sealant to stop urine getting into the cracks.

*Concrete floors*

We usually don't recommend using bleach when cleaning up after cat accidents, but concrete is one surface in which we make an exception. Make a dilute solution with warm water (1 tbsp of bleach to 4-5 litres water) and scrub the area clean. Keep pets and children away while it dries, and make sure you ventilate the area well. Don't use anything with ammonia in it!

*Bedding*

Pop in the washing machine using your usual detergent.

For a bit more information on cleaning up after house-soiling cats, here's what iCatCare has to say on the matter:



iCatCare said:


> How do I clean the soiled area?
> 
> Whether a genuine accident or not, once the cat has urinated or defecated at a particular location its sensitive nose will encourage it to use that place as a regular toilet.
> 
> The best way to break the habit is to keep the cat away from the area as long as possible, remove any smell that the cat can detect and maybe change the geography of the location by using pieces of furniture to block access.
> 
> Wash the area with a 10% solution of biological or enzymatic washing powder and then rinse with cold water and allow the area to dry thoroughly. This method works best when the amount of liquid used is minimal to avoid over-saturating, particularly when cleaning carpet. Once the area is dry, the final step of the cleaning process is to spray lightly with surgical spirit (using a plant mister), scrub gently and leave to evaporate. You may want to try a small area first on delicate fabrics.
> 
> Commercially produced enzymatic cleaners are also available specifically for the purpose of removing the stain and odour of cat urine and faeces. Carpet is extremely absorbent and urine often penetrates the full thickness of the carpet to the flooring underneath. If the area is badly soiled with urine over a long period it may be necessary to cut out the section of carpet and underlay and treat the concrete or floorboards underneath before replacing.


*Part 8: I've done all that - what now?*

If you are reading this as the owner of a house-soiling cat, I sincerely hope that you haven't jumped straight to this section, or just skimmed the bits above. If you have, go back to the beginning and read it through properly, TWICE, then try some of the suggestions.

If you have genuinely done everything you feel you can - had the all clear from the vet, made meaningful changes to your house, provided a good feline environment and taken measures to reduce stress in your cats, then it is understandable that you are at the end of your tether.

Here are some options open to you:

*1. Medications*
There are a variety of medications available to treat house soiling in cats. Virtually all are unlicensed (which means they are not officially marketed for cats and have not been tested for safety or efficacy) and many have side effects. Many of them are anti-depressants. Some, such as the hormonal treatment Ovaban, are only recommended for use as a last resort if the only alternative is euthanasia. Speak to your vet about medications; they may feel that it is not a suitable option for your cat, or may need to look into it further.

*2. Referral to a behaviourist*
Difficult or refractory cases often benefit from referral (via the vet) to a good behaviourist. This can be costly, but is definitely worth it as these cases are often life-or-death for the cat. Ask your vet if you would like a referral.

*3. Rehoming*
House soiling cats are (understandably) very hard to rehome. Rehoming should only be considered if the cause of the house soiling has been identified as an environmental stressor that cannot be corrected. Examples of this may include the cat who is so stressed by living as part of a multi-cat household who would benefit from being an only cat, or the cat who has a medical condition but cannot be effectively medicated because the owner is elderly or disabled. Your local veterinary practice or rehoming/rescue centres may know of some potential homes that are suitable; Cats Protection operates a Home-From-Home scheme where they will 'advertise' the cat for rehoming on your behalf and carry out home checks.

*4. Euthanasia*
This should be a last resort. Most vets will (reasonably) be reluctant to do this and may refuse unless they know that everything else has already been tried.

*

Final thoughts*
*
House soiling is a frustrating problem, but in many cases it can be managed. It always requires commitment and patience, and often money and investment. BE PATIENT - even in curable cases with excellent management, you cannot expect resolution overnight. It can take weeks or months for progress to occur, so don't give up.*

This forum is an excellent source of advice and support. I hope others will post below with their own experiences and suggestions.

In the meantime, here are some links:

ICC: Soiling indoors | international cat care

The Guidelines: AAFP and ISFM Guidelines for Diagnosing and Solving House-Soiling Behavior in Cats

*
If this thread helps just ONE cat, then I'll be happy.
*


----------



## Polski

Didn't want to read and run, especially not after typing your fingers to the bone! 

I have a problem pee'er but without rehoming the other 6 cats I can't see me being able to change him and as he is so bonded to me I don't think rehoming him would work either, for him or me. It would be like giving away one of my kids. Ah well, I'm sure those that truly love me will put up with the faint whiff of eau de pee from time to time.


----------



## mudgekin

What an amazing post. I had a cat 20 odd years ago that peed everywhere and it was really soul destroying. We didn't rehome or have her pts until she became ill but if I had had these tools available things may have been better.

This needs to be a sticky.


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## Citrineblue

An amazing thread, clear fantastically useful information for anyone taking on a new cat and for those with issues.

Thank you yet again.......


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## Charity

That is really good reading, thanks Shosh for all your hard work.


----------



## oliviarussian

Great to have all the info in one place....Maybe ask Mods to make it a stickie!

Well done Shosh, I'm always so impressed by just how much time some members on here spend advising and helping out with kitty problems, It really is what makes this place special!


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## Torin.

Oooh, conveniently-timed info! Don't suppose you have a link to a suitable-but-cheap UVA light ("blacklight")?


----------



## Forester

Wow !, Thanks Shosh.

I haven't read every single word but that's the most comprehensive post I have every seen. You deserve an honour for all that you do to help the feline population and their slaves.

I don't have a house soiling cat but if I ever do I would like to be able to refer to this mega post. It needs to be stickied. I'll PM a mod to request it in case it hasn't already been done.

I hope that your fingers aren't too sore Shosh.


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## chillminx

Fantastic post Shoshannah! Brilliant! 

Thank you so much for that, it will save me loads of time, bless your heart. 
From now on instead of me typing my responses in detail to posts about house soiling cats, I can simply post a link to your thread.:thumbup1:

This thread absolutely *MUST* be made into a sticky!  Please ask the mods a.s.a.p. 

Thank you again for all the great contributions you make to the forum.


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## peecee

EXcellent source of information. Like the idea of making your own litter trays. I have a real problem with pee and poo on the walls.

A bit of an unrelated question but why do some cats not cover?


----------



## oggers86

peecee said:


> EXcellent source of information. Like the idea of making your own litter trays. I have a real problem with pee and poo on the walls.
> 
> A bit of an unrelated question but why do some cats not cover?


I would like to know this too! The girls cover their toilet for the most part but Elsworth has never covered. He digs a nice hole but as soon as he is done he leaps out of the tray. If he goes back to an unscooped tray he will cover up the previous toilet, dig another hole and repeat the process.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Thank you all for your kind words. I read the article and thought: 'I/we see so many cats with house soiling problems, surely many of them can be helped with really simple changes?'

I hope this thread is of help - if we all make contributions then it will be a great starting point for anyone who comes on here with a house soiling cat.

So if you have any additions, clarifications or corrections, just let me know and I shall edit the posts accordingly.


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## carly87

This needs to be made a sticky!


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## Torin.

carly87 said:


> This needs to be made a sticky!


It was made one a good few hours ago heh.


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## JBird

Hi ShoShannah,

Thank you for sharing all of this. I have 3 cats (2 7yr old sisters and a 15 month boy) and have had poo problems with one of the girls for about 6 months.

I've sent a sample to the vets which came back with extra e-coli but nothing serious and have been trying different foods to stop her runs ever since. I've narrowed it down to Butchers (as long as I take the thick jelly layer off the bottom) and Ropo cat Sensitive. Poos are no longer loose.

Additional tray upstairs, we had 3 in the kitchen already which all 3 cats used for wees. This has improved things a bit, she poos every couple of days on the floor now rather than every day.

However, from your advice I'm going to try relocating another tray upstairs and see if this improves things & put it in a more discrete location. 

I'm also interested in the social groups. The girl with the poo problem is very much a loner, the other two are close. At the moment they are all fed together and often end up swapping bowls / stealing each others so it's logical that this causes stress.

She always goes in the downstairs hall, against the porch door (cats never use this door, always out the back of the house), so I think that implies it's an internal stressor.

I'll let you know how we get on, fingers crossed!! I'll try anything!


----------



## Paddypaws

Thank you so much for this information Shoshannah!
I have been battling a complex situation with house soiling for several months now so it is a subject I am very interested in.
I find the high sided storage boxes can be ideal for home made trays...Ikea sell the perfect size and they are opaque so the cats can keep an eye on any approaching enemies.
I have found puppy training pads, or Incontinence pads to be very useful as temporary measures to block further damage to vulnerable areas.
Lastly I have found this litter to be invaluable
Cat Attract Clumping Litter 18kg (40lbs) | eBay
cat seem to find it almost irresistible so it is worth the hefty price tag.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

JBird said:


> I'll let you know how we get on, fingers crossed!! I'll try anything!


Aw bless her! Yes, please let us know how you get on. Good luck!  xx



Paddypaws said:


> I have been battling a complex situation with house soiling for several months now so it is a subject I am very interested in.


I hope you make some headway - have you read the original article? There is a link to it somewhere at the end of the post - it's free to view via the JFSM site.  xxx


----------



## The Wild Bunch

So glad I have read this. Our cat is an outdoor puss and as we have just taken her on, we don't want to let her out just yet. She has never had a litter box in the house before so will definitely try adding some soil to her litter to get her used to going indoors (she is 8) 
Thanks for taking the time to post this!

Jo


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## phoebem8

I have had mabel for over a year now. I did have some issues with her and the litterbox initially when she was a kitten, she prefered to go on the floor next to it and occasionly on my bed and rug or various places in my room. Anyway she finally managed to start going to wee and poo outside in the garden.. apart from maybe once every 2 weeks when she would use the litterbox bathroom.

I just went away for a month and left my sister in charge. (who has always lived here and who mabel my cat knows). In this month she pee'd and poo's on the bed everyday and other various rooms.. even after my sister bleaching my mattress and drycleaning my duvet. I tried to feel sympathetic towards her thinking she may have felt stressed or upset that i was away. 

But i have just woken up to her peeing on the bed while i'm in it.. even though her litterbox is clean. I am taking her to the vets.. yet i doubt it is a medical condition, because my bed and toilet are 1 meter away.. (its a tiny en suite) and she purposefully would rather jump up n use the bed. I'm really upset and worried. I love her but I have always known she is very slow in the mind as she was the runt.. but this is unacceptable.. PLEASE HELP!!


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## bluecordelia

Great post. I had problems with blue opening bowels next to litter tray, pooping under sideboards and table. She is an irritable bowel cat too. I increased number of trays and had them on both floors. What I noticed was she liked to poo in the shower tray or plastic laundry basket. I started leaving empty plastic trays down and it worked. She is better with her tum also.


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## jackiefranx

Good Morning everyone here on Pets Forum my name is Jackie I have 2 teenage children {boys} a 2 Year old feline called Lilly she is a ginger tabby {we adore her} and 2 bearded dragons called Rex and Roxy {I adore them} boys prefer lily now.
I am due to take Lily to the vet next week I am concerned about her she started spraying about 5 months ago and the past week has started fully urinating outside her box.:confused5:
What I have done to help her well I trained her to sit out in the garden by her own choice she wont go further than the gate I thought this might help her with any restrictions she may have felt being an indoor cat. I bought her an xlarge litter box and I use catsan litter it is cleaned daily when she is not looking.I sprayed friendly cat stuff on her marking and urinating areas to avoid remarking. She is loved and cuddled and kept active daily she overall should be happy but you never know!
She uses her box and still urinates in the same areas of the home.
Here is what I have not done for her she has not had a needle near her or been neutered I have been ill from surgery shortly after I got her from a cattery next week will address this I feel I have let her down on this point does anyone think the fact she has not been vet checked she may be a bit under the weather. Any informed advice will be read and appreciated. Great to be a new member.Thanks in advance.[/FONT]


----------



## chillminx

If Lilly is 2 yrs old and not yet spayed that is the most likely reason she is spraying around the house. This is common behaviour amongst unspayed (and un-neutered) cats. Get her spayed as soon as possible, It is unkind to leave her to keep coming into heat, and also bad for her health, as being unmated she is at risk of a nasty womb infection called pyometra.

There is also a possibility she has FLUTD (Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease), with or without an urine infection. Get her investigated by the vet urgently.

Please don't let her out again until she is spayed unless you have a 100% secure enclosed run, or garden for her, which no other cat can get into and she cannot get out of.


----------



## LittleGilo

Hi there!

This message refers to my little cat (Gilo) and my Housemate's cat (Margot). 

I was just seeking out some friendly and knowledgeable advice...

They are both 5 months old and have been using a litter tray indoors up until about 3-4 weeks ago. And i'm REALLY struggling to get them to go to the bathroom outside. I did everything that one normally does for the transition from litterbox to outdoors - I gradually moved the box outside; then scattered some of the litter where i want them to use the toilet; then placed them in these areas.

I would pick the cats up and place them in the patch of soil in the garden, and they would immediately squat over the soil and do their business - no problem! But now, every single time I wake up AND come home from work in the evenings there is a huge pile of poop in the same spot at the top of the stairs! It is becoming a nightmare as they are surely old enough to be able to do their toilet business outside by now? They are constantly roaming in and out through the TV room window that I keep open at all times now.

Are they trying to tell me something?? Are they distressed in any way or are they just confused? I don't want to reintroduce the litterbox inside as they need to get used to the idea that they HAVE to start going outside when they need the toilet.

PLEASE HELP.

Thanks so much.


----------



## Catloverbearsden

Hi there,

This may sound like a daft question but how do I know if any of my cats are spraying indoors? 

I have wooden furniture that was last oiled a few years ago with tung oil and every so often the furniture has damp patches and liquid underneath but it doesn't smell of urine. Could it be oil and feels slightly oily to the touch?

Thanks in Advance


----------



## Jonny and Slush

Thanks for such a great and informative thread.

I am adopting a stray in two weeks so am planning ahead and doing my research which is what brought me to this thread. I have a concern about our situation and litter trays.

I live in a fairly small, top floor flat (1 kitchen, 1 small shower-room, 1 good sized living/bedroom and a small cupboard that has my tumble drier and clothes hung in it.) My plan, as is supported by your thread was to have;

Kitchen: Her food and water 

Living room: For all our... well... living (play, relaxation, sleep etc.) but also with some water.

Cupboard: I was going to have a little cat blanket on top of the tumble drier as it will be a nice little hide for her with a bit of height and a view out the slightly open door. 

Shower/toilet: I was going to go with an open sided litter tray between the sink and toilet.

I should mention that Slush will be my only large pet (I have aquariums) and she is also deaf (Why I decided to start with an open litter tray as vision is going to be so important to her.)

I have two questions if you can help, the first is regarding the 'x Cats + 1' litter tray rule. What should I do here? There just isn't a suitable room for a second litter tray, will the situation of a small living environment combined with no other pets make it acceptable if not ideal?

The second question is one of curiosity, how come the non use of litter tray liners is suggested?

Many thanks,
Jonny


----------



## chillminx

Hi there Johnny

I never use litter tray liners because I don't see any advantage to them, and they are therefore a waste of money. When I used them many years ago I found they got ripped by the cat's claws when the cat was digging and burying, and so when it came to empty the tray out the litter fell through the holes in the liner. 

There is not really a need for a liner if you use a good quality litter which clumps well and absorbs the smell. Also, with a good quality litter the tray should only need a complete change every 6 weeks or so. (Though of course it will need scooping several times a day). The cereal based litters meet all these requirements and also the poo deposits can be flushed.:thumbup1: 

Possibly if you use a clay based litter you may find that a liner prevents the clumps sticking to the bottom of the tray like cement. 

You may get away with one tray for your cat, but many cats prefer two trays so they can pee in one tray and poo in the other. Litter trays don't all have to be on the floor. If you are short of floor space, use the vertical space to advantage. A second litter tray can be put on a shelf, as long as there is a safe route up there for the cat. 

As the cat is deaf and is to be an indoor cat, give him lots of places to climb and sit high up. Utilise the walls by put up shelves of different heights so the cat can use them like steps. He will enjoy having places to go to be away from humans when he wants to.


----------



## Jonny and Slush

chillminx said:


> Hi there Johnny
> 
> I never use litter tray liners because I don't see any advantage to them, and they are therefore a waste of money. When I used them many years ago I found they got ripped by the cat's claws when the cat was digging and burying, and so when it came to empty the tray out the litter fell through the holes in the liner.
> 
> There is not really a need for a liner if you use a good quality litter which clumps well and absorbs the smell. Also, with a good quality litter the tray should only need a complete change every 6 weeks or so. (Though of course it will need scooping several times a day). The cereal based litters meet all these requirements and also the poo deposits can be flushed.:thumbup1:
> 
> Possibly if you use a clay based litter you may find that a liner prevents the clumps sticking to the bottom of the tray like cement.
> 
> You may get away with one tray for your cat, but many cats prefer two trays so they can pee in one tray and poo in the other. Litter trays don't all have to be on the floor. If you are short of floor space, use the vertical space to advantage. A second litter tray can be put on a shelf, as long as there is a safe route up there for the cat.
> 
> As the cat is deaf and is to be an indoor cat, give him lots of places to climb and sit high up. Utilise the walls by put up shelves of different heights so the cat can use them like steps. He will enjoy having places to go to be away from humans when he wants to.


Hey Chillminx!

Wow, so much great advice and you totally just saved me time researching which cat litter to go with, I will definitely get some cereal based ones. Would you say there is a best or is it more which is best for each individual kitty?

I picked up a scoop with a lid today so being able to pop the poops straight in the loo will be brilliant. The only option I can see with regards to having two separate trays would be one on either side of the toilet. The flat is very small so she would never have to walk more than ten seconds to get there. Does two in close proximity meet the requirements do you think? Only other alternative is to have a second either in the kitchen which I would rather not do as that is where she will eat and I will prepare food, or the living/bedroom which is where I will eat and we will play and live together.

Unfortunately the shower-room is tiny and the flat is rented so that really is the only feasible option I can see to give her two trays, one for each number,

With regards to the height, it is funny as I have just been looking at cat towers. I would love more than anything to give her a whole string of shelves all around the room, I loved that show 'My Cat From Hell.' Because unlike the title and some of the starts to episodes, the show is so sweet. With the help of Jason they really turn these troubled feline lives around, he is like the cat whisperer. It is a huge thing he always works on, vertical space. Sadly I rent my home so being able to put shelves up won't be possible, but I am racking my brain to figure out as many ways to give her as much height as possible.

I'm hoping to scratch (pun intended) enough money together to get this one;

Natural Paradise Cat Tree | Great deals at zooplus!

That will give her top height about 10cm higher than my head. It will also give her access to where the curtain poles are 25cm higher than that. Since the curtains don't slide on the pole (I pull them to the side) and it is pretty strong, I'm thinking of ways to utilize these too. Will probably take some sort of custom job and I am not sure how to work it at the moment but there is potential there 

Sorry just realized I am getting totally off track for the thread here so sorry about that!


----------



## jaycee05

LittleGilo said:


> Hi there!
> 
> This message refers to my little cat (Gilo) and my Housemate's cat (Margot).
> 
> I was just seeking out some friendly and knowledgeable advice...
> 
> They are both 5 months old and have been using a litter tray indoors up until about 3-4 weeks ago. And i'm REALLY struggling to get them to go to the bathroom outside. I did everything that one normally does for the transition from litterbox to outdoors - I gradually moved the box outside; then scattered some of the litter where i want them to use the toilet; then placed them in these areas.
> 
> I would pick the cats up and place them in the patch of soil in the garden, and they would immediately squat over the soil and do their business - no problem! But now, every single time I wake up AND come home from work in the evenings there is a huge pile of poop in the same spot at the top of the stairs! It is becoming a nightmare as they are surely old enough to be able to do their toilet business outside by now? They are constantly roaming in and out through the TV room window that I keep open at all times now.
> 
> Are they trying to tell me something?? Are they distressed in any way or are they just confused? I don't want to reintroduce the litterbox inside as they need to get used to the idea that they HAVE to start going outside when they need the toilet.
> 
> PLEASE HELP.
> 
> Thanks so much.


Hi, I take it these kittens are not yet neutered? it might be the cause, and they are really too young to be going out yet ,especially if not vaccinated either, also why don't you want a litter tray in the house ,even if they do get used to going outside eventually it is always handy to have an indoor toilet for them in case they cant get outside or have to go urgently,and surely its better to have a litter tray indoors than having a mess at the top of your stairs everyday


----------



## chillminx

Hi LittleGilo, I am very sorry your post was missed earlier, and thank you to Jaycee for noticing it now.

Your kitties will make their own minds up when they are ready to toilet outside and until then they should be provided with litter trays indoors at all times. You can't push them when it comes to toiletting, and you will know when they have given up the indoor litter trays as they will just never get used (in the daytime).

However as Jaycee commented, at 5 mths old your kittens are much too young to be outdoors, unless you have them in an enclosure or a 100% escape-proof garden.

I assume at 5 mths old you and your housemate have had the cats neutered, but if for some reason you haven't, then it is even more essential you don't let them out. Also if they are male and female they will mate with each other soon if they are not neutered.

Once your kittens are neutered and are nearer a year old it would Ok to let them out but I would always keep them in at night for their safety. Therefore you would need to provide a litter tray at nights for them, even if it rarely if ever gets used, they need it as a "just in case" provision.


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## chillminx

Johnny, I am sure she will enjoy the cat tree. 

As you are in rented accommodation and can't attach shelves to the walls, you could perhaps have a freestanding bookcase adapted for cats, such as this one, if you are good at DIY.

A Bookcase For You And Your Cat | DigsDigs

If the only space there is for litter trays is in the bathroom, then you could put two in there. Ideally they should be further apart than that, so the cat has two separate toilets, but I understand it is difficult in a small flat to find the room.

Some people use these litter tray cupboards to disguise the tray, but you'd have to train your cat to be willing to jump into a dark cupboard.

Multi Purpose Wooden Pet Den - White | Great deals at zooplus!


----------



## Jonny and Slush

chillminx said:


> Johnny, I am sure she will enjoy the cat tree.
> 
> As you are in rented accommodation and can't attach shelves to the walls, you could perhaps have a freestanding bookcase adapted for cats, such as this one, if you are good at DIY.
> 
> A Bookcase For You And Your Cat | DigsDigs
> 
> If the only space there is for litter trays is in the bathroom, then you could put two in there. Ideally they should be further apart than that, so the cat has two separate toilets, but I understand it is difficult in a small flat to find the room.
> 
> Some people use these litter tray cupboards to disguise the tray, but you'd have to train your cat to be willing to jump into a dark cupboard.
> 
> Multi Purpose Wooden Pet Den - White | Great deals at zooplus!


Hey chillminx 

I picked up some cereal based litter today as advised, will hopefully find some nice litter trays today.

In the original post, these are some points under the placement;



> Points to consider
> - do not place trays close to food/water bowls or resting areas. Cats do not like to toilet where they eat or sleep (would you?). Ideally trays should be in a separate room to these areas.
> - don't put trays right next to each other unless you count them as one large tray.
> - place trays in quiet locations away from household 'traffic'. Cats will feel stressed using a tray in a hallway where people, dogs etc are constantly going past and may seek somewhere more private to pee or poo.


The first point knocks the living room and kitchen out of the running for litter trays, as the third point also does for the living room. Unfortunately all that leaves in the bathroom. The second point says to not put them right next to each other so hopefully the toilet in between will be better than nothing. Sadly there just isn't any other option for a second litter tray placement 

There is a shelf above the front door that would be amazing as a high hide for her, but there are doors directly on either side with no gap between. I keep trying to rack my brain for anything I could do to get her access to that but it just seems impossible without putting a run of shelves into the wall. I'll beg the landlord, maybe she will allow it if I agree to take them down, fill the walls and repaint the whole room at the end of the tenancy


----------



## allie80

Hi there! This is my first post on this great forum and I am looking for some advice.

I've always had cats but for the first time (well as an adult anyway) we have kittens, we've had them for just a week and they are 9 weeks old. They are both litter trained and one is using the litter tray without a problem. However the other, who is the shyer of the two, seems a bit hit and miss as to where she poos; sometimes she goes in the litter tray but other times she is pooing on the sofa.

We have three litter trays in different locations in the large room they have access to, use the litter that was used by the woman who we go them from and it is not near their food.

The poos have mostly been "normal" looking but the last couple have been a bit of a wetter consistency.

I do wonder if it is a nervous/stress thing but would she still use the tray sometimes if this was the case?

They are both going to the vets tomorrow for their first vaccination and a full health check so hopefully that will rule out any medical issues. However, I thought it might be useful to see if anyone has any advice on how to get her to consistently use the litter tray? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.


----------



## edwend

Hi,

We got Mollie from our local Cats Protection people about a month ago. She had some diarreoah so I took her to my own vets to get checked out. A blood test revealed Hyperthyriodism and I have just started her on a course of Vidalta tablets. 
My question is that Mollie has been using the litter tray quite ok but then out of the blue, will urinate just outside the tray on to the floor. 
Is this likely to be connected to the hyperthyroid or is it more likely to be a problem with the litter tray itself in which case, what would you suggest I do to sort the problem out?

Thanks


----------



## Coco59

Wow fantastic information and advice. Thanks for providing all this. I've read through the information and over the last few weeks have checked/moved as appropriate the tray position, cleanliness, environment as suggested but still have a problem. Our cat is a year old and was re-homed from The Cats Protection League just over a month ago. The first week she used her tray not problem but since then she'll wee in it but will only poo into it on alternate days; I've been keeping a note. On the alternate days she'll poo on the floor directly next to the tray. On the days she uses the tray for a poo, I've noted it can be when the tray is clean, when she's had a wee at one end and she has even had a poo on top of the wee. We use wood pellet litter, the same as Cats Protection because I checked. There don't seem to be any other problems: tray is in quiet area, plenty of space around it, plenty of litter, cleaned regularly. The only thing we haven't tried yet is changing the litter completely. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.


----------



## JunkyardPuppy

Hallo! Thanks for this great post, it covers a lot of bases, but my problem is a bit of an odd one.

Our Tortie, Holly, is 5months old, and while she has no problem at all using her tray, she has quite long fur and the poop sticks to her quite often.... She then proceeds to use the various floorings of the house to 'wipe her bum', scooting about like a dog and leaving an awful trail behind her.
This means not only to I have to clean the tray, mop the floors and scrub the carpets, but I then have to bath Holly.
Needless to say she does NOT enjoy this one bit, and fights so hard that I'm scared she get hurt herself or injure me.
I'm at a loss as to what I can do other than shave her &#128561;
Please help!


----------



## chillminx

JunkyardPuppy, it sounds as though her poo is quite soft as it is clinging to her fur. If so you need to review her diet, cutting out any foods that make her poo soft. (dry food can be one of the worst culprits btw). 

Her poo needs to be firm so there is enough pressure from her rectum when she defecates, to empty her anal glands at the same time. When a cat scoots her bottom along the floor after a poo it's likely to be because her anal glands are not emptying properly. Blocked anal glands are uncomfortable and can get infected.

It is probably a good idea to carefully clip the fur around her bottom with a pair of round-end safety scissors. I have done this with my LH cat as he sometimes gets poo clinging to his fur when his stool is a bit loose now and then. But even if the poo no longers clings your cat will still scoot her bottom if the anal glands are not emptying. 

There is no need to actually shave fur off in that area, and difficult to do so safely anyway in such a sensitive spot.


----------



## chillminx

Coco59 said:


> Wow fantastic information and advice. Thanks for providing all this. I've read through the information and over the last few weeks have checked/moved as appropriate the tray position, cleanliness, environment as suggested but still have a problem. Our cat is a year old and was re-homed from The Cats Protection League just over a month ago. The first week she used her tray not problem but since then she'll wee in it but will only poo into it on alternate days; I've been keeping a note. On the alternate days she'll poo on the floor directly next to the tray. On the days she uses the tray for a poo, I've noted it can be when the tray is clean, when she's had a wee at one end and she has even had a poo on top of the wee. We use wood pellet litter, the same as Cats Protection because I checked. There don't seem to be any other problems: tray is in quiet area, plenty of space around it, plenty of litter, cleaned regularly. The only thing we haven't tried yet is changing the litter completely. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.


You need to provide her with at least 2 trays, in different rooms or areas of the house. Many cats like to pee in one tray and poo in another.

I'd also change the litter for one that she can dig in easily. Shelters use wood pellet because its cheap. Try Cats Best Oko Plus or Worlds Best (both cereal based, both available from [email protected]). They're dearer to buy than wood pellets but much more economical to use as you don't have to keep changing the entire tray every couple of days as you do with the wood pellets. Clumping is also excellent.


----------



## chillminx

edwend said:


> Hi,
> 
> We got Mollie from our local Cats Protection people about a month ago. She had some diarreoah so I took her to my own vets to get checked out. A blood test revealed Hyperthyriodism and I have just started her on a course of Vidalta tablets.
> My question is that Mollie has been using the litter tray quite ok but then out of the blue, will urinate just outside the tray on to the floor.
> Is this likely to be connected to the hyperthyroid or is it more likely to be a problem with the litter tray itself in which case, what would you suggest I do to sort the problem out?
> 
> Thanks


Unlikely to be connected to the HyperT I'd have thought.

Provide her with at least two litter trays, so she has a choice of one to pee in and one to poo in. Also experiment with litters, choosing one that is soft on paws, easy to dig in and clumps well. e.g. Cats Best Oko Plus (cereal based).

Are her stools firm now?


----------



## Faerie Queene

I noticed Drippin's wee was a bit pink
and she had started spotting all over the house.
By the next day, her wee was red.

At the Vets, she had an injection of 0.25 mls Meloxicam
and has 0.45 ml, once a day.

By the next day, her wee was pale pink
and the next day, it was clear.

She was back to her happy self, again.

The Vet suggested getting a water fountain,
to encourage more water consumption.

He also said that I should research Struvite Crystals
and pH in urine.

Hey ho.


----------



## Cats cats cats

I didn't know re lots of digging means that cats are comfortable with their tray/litter  well , Marlon Squashy Face must be positively in love with his box then !! NEVER have I known a cat dig as much as he does


----------



## Lilylass

Cats cats cats said:


> I didn't know re lots of digging means that cats are comfortable with their tray/litter  well , Marlon Squashy Face must be positively in love with his box then !! NEVER have I known a cat dig as much as he does


Haha - you've not met my Archie!

I have to keep his tray with a minimum of 6" of litter in  he digs, and digs, and digs before going - honestly I stand and watch him sometimes (not as bad as it sounds  he seems to have a 'thing' about going when I'm in the bathroom!) - and he must dig down at least 4" before going!


----------



## Cats cats cats

Lilylass said:


> Haha - you've not met my Archie!
> 
> I have to keep his tray with a minimum of 6" of litter in  he digs, and digs, and digs before going - honestly I stand and watch him sometimes (not as bad as it sounds  he seems to have a 'thing' about going when I'm in the bathroom!) - and he must dig down at least 4" before going!


:lol: Little M digs and digs and then when he's done, proceeds to throw half the litter over the floor 

He also is pretty "regular" which nearly always coincides with our evening meal time


----------



## Halloumi

Hi,
I was wondering if I could get some advice please. I have 2 cats who are approx 18 months old. We have recently moved house and are having issues with the cats going outside to go to the toilet.
In the old house they did everything outside no problem. When we moved here we kept them in for a couple of weeks and then let them out and moved the litter tray out with them. They didn't use it outside at all and just did everything in the garden so it got put away completely.
About a week after they got their freedom I found another cat in the house one night (who'd somehow got through the microchip catflap!) it scarpered pretty quick after seeing me but my two had just been watching it very carefully and making noises at it up to that point. My husband has since shooed it out of the garden a couple of times too.
Since then one of our cats started weeing in the bath overnight and then during the day. We shut them in the kitchen one night and she weed in the utility area (where the litter tray had been). We've now put the litter tray back inside and both cats are using it for everything again.
I'm thinking at one of the cats is just scared to go outside which is why we had the bath weeing and now they're both just enjoying the convenience of the litter tray? Or could it be something else?
Any ideas on encouraging them outside again to do their business as I really am not a fan of cleaning out litter! (they are both outside a lot during the day so they're not that bothered by the other cats)
Thanks


----------



## chillminx

Hi there and welcome to Pet Forums! 

Your cats will decide for themselves when they are ready to start going outside again for their toilet, and it is best to leave it completely up to them as to when that choice is made. That way you will avoid any toiletting 'accidents'. For the moment the cats have made their feelings clear - they want to do their toilet indoors, and it is good you've acknowledged their need and have put trays down for them again.

Evidently, for the moment, they don't feel comfortable toiletting outside, probably because of other cats hanging around, in or near their territory. Cats feel very vulnerable when they are busy at their toilet and their instinct tells them to find a safe place to do it. For the moment that safe place is inside the house. Very wise of them. 

Once they have established ownership of their outdoor territory they may probably start going outside again to toilet. If you wanted to encourage them to feel more self-confident then you could completely enclose your garden with special fencing making it impossible for strange cats to get in (and also making it impossible for your cats to get out of the garden), but this is not a suitable solution for everyone. .

Here is the sticky thread in 'Cat Chat' on how to fence a garden to make it cat proof.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

If your cats do decide at some future stage to start going outside again to toilet, I hope you'll continue to provide them with a tray indoors for emergencies, at least for use overnight, even if it only gets used once in a blue moon.


----------



## Halloumi

Thanks that's really helpful. Unfortunately messing with the fencing isn't an option as we're not here for more than a couple of years and it's not our house. 

I'm assuming that most cats would rather go outside than in a litter tray so will I see less usage gradually? Or do I need to encourage them outside somehow eventually?


----------



## chillminx

Halloumi said:


> I'm assuming that most cats would rather go outside than in a litter tray so will I see less usage gradually? Or do I need to encourage them outside somehow eventually?


My experience is that most cats who have access to the outdoors, as you say, do prefer to toilet outside. But there are some outdoor cats who may always feel safer to pop back indoors to use the litter tray and then go out again, and their wishes should be respected.

Quite a few cat owners prefer their outdoor cats to use litter trays indoors as it is easier that way to keep a check on the cat's health. When they always go outdoors for the toilet one would not know if they had e.g. diarrhoea/constipation, or symptoms of cystitis.

There is also the fact a cat's instinct may tell them NOT to use their own garden for their toilet, so instead they go and use a neighbour's garden. This can be very unpleasant for the neighbour, and annoying if they are a gardener.

So if your cats were to end up preferring to use indoor litter trays all the time, there would be a positive side to it, to balance up the work of emptying trays every day. .

Some people may tell you (wrongly IMO) that to encourage your cats to toilet outside you can move the litter tray nearer the door each day. Really there is no point to that at all, and it can be counterproductive!. The cats will not want to toilet outside until they feel confident, and by moving the trays one would risk confusing them, possibly resulting in them using the floor instead of the tray.

In the case of your two cats they've already had a little setback, where they started soiling in the house. Luckily this was quickly remedied by you putting the litter trays back down, and 'the system' is now working perfectly again..

My advice is to leave them to use the litter trays for as long as they need to, and do nothing to try and encourage them to use the outdoors. It is a self-confidence issue for them, so they need time to make up their own minds when (or if) they feel ready to give up the litter trays.


----------



## jojohopkins87

Sorry if this isnt the best bit to comment on!
I have a cat of 8 years old who I have never had any issues with. I went on holiday for a week and left my friend, who my cat knows and loves in charge of my house and said cat. When I came home, my cat was acting her normal self but appeared to be suffering with cystitis. She dribbled wee a few times on my bed and repeatedly visited the litter tray trying to wee. I visited the vet the next day who diagnosed cystitis and so for the last two days she has been on medication for such. Last night on returning home, my cat urinated all over my bed. After stripping and binning all my bedding as well as spending a night on my couch, I went today and bought all new bedding and duvets etc. After making it all up and shutting the door all day, she appeared to be using the tray for toileting as before and seemed back to her normal self. The moment I opened the door later that evening, she ran in and proceeded to again urinate all over my bed this time soaking it all through the mattress. So, I am currently re-washing all my bedding, had to purchase yet more duvets and wondering what the hell has happened to my cat!! All help and suggestions appreciated...........


----------



## chillminx

jojohopkins87 said:


> Sorry if this isnt the best bit to comment on!
> I have a cat of 8 years old who I have never had any issues with. I went on holiday for a week and left my friend, who my cat knows and loves in charge of my house and said cat. When I came home, my cat was acting her normal self but appeared to be suffering with cystitis. She dribbled wee a few times on my bed and repeatedly visited the litter tray trying to wee. I visited the vet the next day who diagnosed cystitis and so for the last two days she has been on medication for such. Last night on returning home, my cat urinated all over my bed. After stripping and binning all my bedding as well as spending a night on my couch, I went today and bought all new bedding and duvets etc. After making it all up and shutting the door all day, she appeared to be using the tray for toileting as before and seemed back to her normal self. The moment I opened the door later that evening, she ran in and proceeded to again urinate all over my bed this time soaking it all through the mattress. So, I am currently re-washing all my bedding, had to purchase yet more duvets and wondering what the hell has happened to my cat!! All help and suggestions appreciated...........


Hi Jojo, welcome to Pet Forums  Apologies for the late reply, I almost missed your post at the end of the thread. 

It sounds as though your cat suffered from separation anxiety whilst you were away, which manifested itself in stress-related cystitis. She may know your friend well, but if your cat is closely bonded with you she is likely to feel anxious when you go away, and your friend would be second best. It is also possible your friend had visitors whilst in your home and perhaps your cat didn't like the strangers invading her space.

When a cat has cystitis (or a UTI) they will often avoid using the litter tray because they associate the tray with pain. Instead they will seek out somewhere soft to wee, because they think it will hurt less. Human beds are a common choice.

It could be either that she is still having some bladder problems, or it could be she is still avoiding the tray because she continues to associate it with the pain she felt before when she had cystitis.

Yet another possibility is that she might be scent-marking your bed with urine, if your friend slept in your bed whilst you were away. If your cat normally sleeps with you on the bed she could be reclaiming the territory (the bed and the bedroom) as hers.

To prevent your cat being attracted to pee on your bed again you do need to get rid of all traces of the smell of urine, and if it has gone right through into the mattress it is going to be almost impossible to eradicate it. You may end up needing to buy a new mattress  Whatever the case, you should buy a waterproof mattress cover to protect the mattress. John Lewis Stores sell good quality ones that don't rustle and are 'breathable'.

Duvets and sheets need washing at 60 degrees to get rid of the smell. To clean the mattress use a solution of bio laundry liquid and water, or Bio Tex stain remover.(Bio Tex is sold in supermarkets in the laundry cleaner section). These have enzymes which get to work breaking down the urine. Remove the mattress from the bed and lean it upright, then scrub the soiled area and leave mattress to dry (upright) for a couple of days before putting it back on the bed.

To encourage your cat back to using the litter trays you may need to buy some new trays and change the type of litter you use, and place the trays in different places round the home. New trays and different litter won't have negative associations for your cat, so she may be more inclined to use them.

As she may still have some mild cystitis feed her a wet food diet only, NO dry food. A cat who has had bladder problems should not be fed dry food, they are not a good candidate for it. A wet food diet ensures she will be getting maximum intake of moisture and this will encourage her to empty her bladder more often. Emptying her bladder more frequently means more dilute urine, so less chance for possible irritants (crystals like tiny grains of sand) or bacteria to linger in the bladder causing her discomfort.

You could also give her a course of Zylkene for a month, a supplement which is calming for anxious cats. The capsules are opened and the powder mixed with food. Cats find it palatable. You can buy it from the vet but it is much cheaper to buy from online pet pharmacies.

http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/zylkene-capsules-pack-of-20-75mg.html

It may be an idea to keep your cat out of the bedroom for the time being until you are more sure of her.


----------



## jojohopkins87

Hey!
Yep all of that sounds massively possible. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and all of your help! X


----------



## Fonx

Excellent informatin - and just what I was looking for. Given me some food for thought as myy kitten has just pooped on the carpet for the first time! I was just about to go empty the tray too. She farted something nasty too just before discovering the small mess upstairs. I do wonder if she hasn't been feeling well today as she hadn't eaten much - now that she's done a poo she seems to be feeling better and running around.

I did notice some fresh poop in another tray not far away. Which made me think she'd pooped there but then decided to poop elsewhere. She may not have been feeling very well today as hardly ate anything and been very quiet. Now that she has pooped and emitted a foul stench of a fart though she and her sister are now causing their usual amount of mayhem.

Maybe it is their diet - we got them 2 weeks ago, and 3 weeks ago apparently they went off their food and then we tried to change their diet again. They're on Tesco at the moment - I wanted something more healthy but if they eat it I suppose it is better than starving themselves.

Noranti (the pooper) I do notice does not eat as much as Tali. Lately they have been sharing a bowl so I'm gonna try giving two bowels of food.

I do wonder why - we empty the trays every day. We use clumping stuff and read somewhere we don't have to throw that out as much as other stuff so haven't emptied it entirely yet. Maybe the box itself was smelling (we only recently changed their trays to covered and notice that they spray their wee up the side. Which is weird. Their non-covered tray they do not spray it up. So it got a clean today after about a week-ish I guess. I guess we need to do it 2+ weekly.

Also I have noticed lately Tali just likes to watch her sister go to the loo. They can't use the flaps yet whilst on the loo so no privacy. Tali will peer around the corner whilst Noranti tries to do her business or even try to get in with her! 

Their favourite tray at the moment is in the library which they also use as their bedroom... it isn't meant to be staying in there we just haven't moved it out yet. We put it there when they first arrived. Tali follows Noranti around - and Noranti follows Tali around. I don't think Noranti watches Tali pooping so much though. 

The other trays have non-clumping which is what they were used to at the breeders. I wonder if they just prefer the library one as it has a clumping litter inside it and that is why they pretty much just wanna use that one? They stay in the library mostly when we're out so maybe don't bother with the other trays! 

I'm hoping she won't do this again... maybe we just needed to give it a better clean or it needed emptying quicker in Noranti's opinion. Tali had no problem with using the litter tray though as she decided to have a wee in it whilst I was trying to empty it out. She is always trying to "help" with litter tray emptying.


----------



## chillminx

Hi Fonx, if Noranti has loose stools, diarrhoea or smelly flatulence then it is likely she may be avoiding the tray for that reason. An upset tummy can cause a cat to associate the litter tray with pain or discomfort which results in tray avoidance and defecating elsewhere often on carpet or even soft furnishings..

Non-clumping litter gets smelly quickly - it only takes a few pees and a couple of poos and the whole tray is contaminated. I always found the tray needed a full change of litter every 2 days if using non-clumping. 

But a tray with clumping litter lasts much longer without a full change. I provide Worlds Best litter, which is cereal based and only do a full change every 6 weeks. (I scoop it twice daily of course).

However if your kittens are still young (under 3 months) clumping litter is not safe for them, as they might swallow some when they wash their feet, and it could cause an intestinal blockage. The clumping clay type is particularly dangerous as it sets like cement once in the gut. 

It sounds as though it could be a food related problem causing the diarrhoea. Dry food is known to cause loose stools in some cats, so I'd stick to a wet food diet, much healthier for her too.

Meanwhile I'd give Noranti some plain boiled chicken drumsticks, cooked for an hour, and served off the bone without the skin. Also give her some of the nutritious cooking water too. Nothing else apart from water. This should settle her tum and make her feel much more comfortable. Once her stools have firmed up and are no longer smelling bad, then you can reintroduce cat foods, gradually. If all she will eat is Felix A.G.A.I.L. and it suits her tummy then I wouldn't worry about it for now. You can try introducing better quality food as she gets older.


----------



## Fonx

chillminx said:


> Hi Fonx, if Noranti has loose stools, diarrhoea or smelly flatulence then it is likely she may be avoiding the tray for that reason. An upset tummy can cause a cat to associate the litter tray with pain or discomfort which results in tray avoidance and defecating elsewhere often on carpet or even soft furnishings..
> 
> Non-clumping litter gets smelly quickly - it only takes a few pees and a couple of poos and the whole tray is contaminated. I always found the tray needed a full change of litter every 2 days if using non-clumping.
> 
> But a tray with clumping litter lasts much longer without a full change. I provide Worlds Best litter, which is cereal based and only do a full change every 6 weeks. (I scoop it twice daily of course).
> 
> However if your kittens are still young (under 3 months) clumping litter is not safe for them, as they might swallow some when they wash their feet, and it could cause an intestinal blockage. The clumping clay type is particularly dangerous as it sets like cement once in the gut.
> 
> It sounds as though it could be a food related problem causing the diarrhoea. Dry food is known to cause loose stools in some cats, so I'd stick to a wet food diet, much healthier for her too.
> 
> Meanwhile I'd give Noranti some plain boiled chicken drumsticks, cooked for an hour, and served off the bone without the skin. Also give her some of the nutritious cooking water too. Nothing else apart from water. This should settle her tum and make her feel much more comfortable. Once her stools have firmed up and are no longer smelling bad, then you can reintroduce cat foods, gradually. If all she will eat is Felix A.G.A.I.L. and it suits her tummy then I wouldn't worry about it for now. You can try introducing better quality food as she gets older.


Thanks Chillminx! The kittens are three and a half months old. Our third cat's breeder uses World's Best and we did look into that I think but my boyfriend thought it rather expensive so chose errr... Tigerano or something like that and they seem to like that more as they've been shunning the other trays (which are clean mainly cos they don't use them very often!) which might explain why that tray got very stinky quicker than we expected.

Noranti's stool wasn't runny - although maybe a bit softer than Tali's and smellier maybe. She's very perky today. We're gonna just keep feeding her the tesco food as you said.

I do notice that Tali, her sister who she does seem to get on with - they cuddle, lick each other as well as playfighting and chasing toys together - seems to annoy her whilst she's on the loo though. This morning Noranti was having a poop in there and Tali jumped in and buried Noranti's poop before she even finished, fussed around the place. Noranti went to the back, did a quick qww and then leapt out and into her favourite cube toy thing where she did the smallest amount of poo (more of a smear) and began scratching to cover it.

And I've just noticed now that Noranti has just darted out of the litter box and is looking around. Tali just boundered up stairs. So I'm wonder if Noranti is feeling constantly ambushed by Tali which might have caused it? Although plenty of other times she hops in there on her own accord with Tali and they both go for a pee/poop together and Tali doesn't always bother her at times like this.


----------



## chillminx

Fonx said:


> Thanks Chillminx! The kittens are three and a half months old. Our third cat's breeder uses World's Best and we did look into that I think but my boyfriend thought it rather expensive so chose errr... Tigerano or something like that and they seem to like that more as they've been shunning the other trays (which are clean mainly cos they don't use them very often!) which might explain why that tray got very stinky quicker than we expected.
> 
> Noranti's stool wasn't runny - although maybe a bit softer than Tali's and smellier maybe. She's very perky today. We're gonna just keep feeding her the tesco food as you said.
> 
> I do notice that Tali, her sister who she does seem to get on with - they cuddle, lick each other as well as playfighting and chasing toys together - seems to annoy her whilst she's on the loo though. This morning Noranti was having a poop in there and Tali jumped in and buried Noranti's poop before she even finished, fussed around the place. Noranti went to the back, did a quick qww and then leapt out and into her favourite cube toy thing where she did the smallest amount of poo (more of a smear) and began scratching to cover it.
> 
> And I've just noticed now that Noranti has just darted out of the litter box and is looking around. Tali just boundered up stairs. So I'm wonder if Noranti is feeling constantly ambushed by Tali which might have caused it? Although plenty of other times she hops in there on her own accord with Tali and they both go for a pee/poop together and Tali doesn't always bother her at times like this.


Cats do like privacy when they are at their toilet so it is definitely a possibility that Tali bothering Noranti when she is in the tray could be putting her off and making her go elsewhere. I think Tali regards it as _her _tray (not a shared one) hence the reason why she ambushes Noranti and jumps in and fusses around before Tali has finished.

Can you not put the same type of litter in all the trays, so that Noranti might be inclined to use another tray? It would be impossible to actually stop cats who live together from sharing litter trays, as it comes naturally to them. So the best thing is to put down plenty of trays that are all equally attractive to use, for either cat. At the moment Tali is guarding the tray that she finds most attractive to use. It may be you need to put several trays with the same kind of litter in one room, but not actually grouped together or Tali will regard them all as one toilet.

I'm glad they seem to like Tigerino! Cats like a litter that is as near like sand as possible. I tried Tigerino for mine and found it one of the worst quality litters I've ever bought!  I assume you mean the clay Tigerino? It was very dusty (bad for the cats' lungs, especially in covered trays) and the whole tray smelt bad after only a day, so I had to empty out the whole lot and refill the tray every day. It was wasteful and worked out expensive. Worlds Best (or Cats Best, which is cheaper than WB) are very superior to Tigerino, and cheaper to use in the long run. As well as making for nicer smelling litter trays.


----------



## Fonx

Too bad about the Tigerino - we have just this moment filled the rest of the trays up with the stuff. We were using the stuff the breeder gave us to begin with so that's why the other trays had different stuff.

I'll admit that the tigerino does stink. I'll pass the recommendation of WB/CB to my boyfriend although he doesn't seem to spend as much time as me researching every little tiny thing about cats. Ultimately we're quite new to owning cats so are just willing to learn and find what's best for them. 

Hopefully Noranti will discover these other trays now contain the stuff she likes and she and Tali can quit fighting over it!


----------



## chillminx

Let us know whether putting Tigerino in all the trays helps Noranti or not. If it doesn't then we can have another think of what to try next.


----------



## Fonx

Thanks Chillminx.  She hasn't done it again today so hoping it is a one off. I hope Tali leaves her alone. They follow each other around and often do get in at the same time with others - but I don't think I've seen Tali behaving quite the same as with the one in the library. Although if her sister pees in one she will follow but it isn't quite the same level. Admittedly the one in the library is only meant to be temporary as that was the first room they were allowed in to begin with... and it isn't in the best positions really. 

I just want to make sure they are all happy. My boyfriend thinks that I obsess way too much.


----------



## chillminx

Fonx said:


> ..............My boyfriend thinks that I obsess way too much.


Hmm, I like to call it "attention to detail" rather than obsessing! :Smuggrin:Smuggrin:Smuggrin LOL.


----------



## The Wild Bunch

.


----------



## bugs78

Our 3 year old torty went through a stage of using the bath as her toilet (we are kind of thankful she chose there as its easy to clean, not very nice though) we were using non-clumping cat litter which we changed to catsan clumping catlitter and she hasnt used the bath for 2 weeks now then today she has used the bath.

the only difference was that I didnt scoop out her of clumped litter where she has wee'd.

How often do you guys clear the clumps out? obviously number 2's I try and deal with straight away.

so far Im having to clear her tray twice a day, which seems alot


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## chillminx

@bugs78 - I clear the clumps of wee twice a day from the downstairs trays, [afternoon and evening] and once a day from the upstairs trays as they are used less often than the downstairs trays.

Clearing clumps twice a day is minimum for regularly used trays, as if left longer the cats will be likely to run out of space.

I am not surprised your cat didn't like the non clumping Catsan. Once that stuff has been used a couple of times the whole tray gets contaminated by the smell of urine!


----------



## jaycee05

One my cats has always been a pain for weeing on furniture and my bed,i just have to keep her out of the living room now unless i am in there so i can watch her,as for the bed i have slept with a plastic sheet, like a mattress waterproof on top of my Duvet and under a bedspread for 13 years,a long as i have had her, [been vet checked,nothing wrong] i think at last i have cracked the problem with the bed, after a tip from my vet to stop cats scratching carpets she said she sprays cheap aftershave or perfume on it,i have tried it on my bed,and she hasnt even laid on it since, she will lay on a pillow next to me, which isnt sprayed, , and up to now success
I take clumps out of the litte tray as soon as i see it,or as soon as its been done


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## chillminx

@jaycee05 - Must say, given a choice I'd opt for the smell of cat wee on my bed rather than the smell of cheap aftershave or perfume! :Yuck LOL .


----------



## jaycee05

chillminx said:


> @jaycee05 - Must say, given a choice I'd opt for the smell of cat wee on my bed rather than the smell of cheap aftershave or perfume! :Yuck LOL .


Lol, you wouldnt if you were under the covers when she did it , more than once i have had to change my bed at 1am


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## Jcook1988

Ok I need some advice now! 


My male cat has started spraying! 


He was a stray that we picked up in April after his owners moved and left him, he was litter trained, neutered and has always been good in the house.


We have 3 litter trays one for him one for my other cat and a spare! 


I clean them out after every use and he still actually uses the litter tray to wee in if he is inside for a few hours and poo's outside.


For about the last 4 weeks he has started to spray- 


he has sprayed:

Up the curtains in the living room and the floor


In the kitchen up the cupboard doors, by the back door and next to his litter tray.


Upstairs against the curtains in my bedroom.

In the spare room up a speaker that is never used.


On one of my jackets.


I have been to the vets and ruled out medical so clearly it is something territorial.


The only things that have changed recently are: 


1) we changed their diet 3 months ago to a raw diet (however he only started spraying about 4 weeks ago and he loves his raw more then his old food so I don't think is that)


2) A big ginger cat has come Into our yard a few times and they have had confrontation.


I assume it is most Likely the second reason and he is marking his territory cause he sprays mostly next to windows and doors and also my jacket! 


Any ideas or tips to try and curb this behaviour! 


I have felliway and pet remedy plug-in's and I have started to close the curtains and blinds if he is left in the house, just incase he can see the cat when where not in! 


I was going to get a cat flap fitted but now I'm unsure if that's a good idea or not! 


Any ideas!


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## chillminx

@Jcook1988 - it sounds as though you may be right - that your cat is reacting to the visiting ginger cat by spraying indoors.

It could be the case the ginger cat is spraying not only in your garden but also against your back door and/or front door. If so your cat will be able to smell the scent of the strange cat's urine in the house, and will feel very threatened. I advise using an enzyme based cleaner such as Simple Solution or Urine Off to clean the outside of your doors and the steps every day. It really is important to get rid of the smell completely, to make your boy feel safe again.

It would also be a good idea to buy a water pistol and when you see the ginger cat in your garden spray him with water.

It could be the case he is an un-neutered tom cat, which your cat may find even more threatening. It would be worth finding out, so maybe you can enquire from your neighbours to see if they know who Ginger belongs to, and then speak diplomatically to the owner to check whether Ginger is neutered or not.

It might be best not to install a cat flap until you have resolved this problem, and when you do install one at a future date, only fit a Microchip cat flap, so no strange cats can get in the house.


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## Jcook1988

chillminx said:


> @Jcook1988 - it sounds as though you may be right - that your cat is reacting to the visiting ginger cat by spraying indoors.
> 
> It could be the case the ginger cat is spraying not only in your garden but also against your back door and/or front door. If so your cat will be able to smell the scent of the strange cat's urine in the house, and will feel very threatened. I advise using an enzyme based cleaner such as Simple Solution or Urine Off to clean the outside of your doors and the steps every day. It really is important to get rid of the smell completely, to make your boy feel safe again.
> 
> It would also be a good idea to buy a water pistol and when you see the ginger cat in your garden spray him with water.
> 
> It could be the case he is an un-neutered tom cat, which your cat may find even more threatening. It would be worth finding out, so maybe you can enquire from your neighbours to see if they know who Ginger belongs to, and then speak diplomatically to the owner to check whether Ginger is neutered or not.
> 
> It might be best not to install a cat flap until you have resolved this problem, and when you do install one at a future date, only fit a Microchip cat flap, so no strange cats can get in the house.


Thank you for those suggestions I am going to order some enzyme cleaner tonight!

To be honest I am not sure where the cat lives (it just started turning up) so I might make some flyers and post them through peoples doors or if I can get close it pop a paper collar on it asking for the owners to call me!

thanks again! xx


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## ClaireJ

Hi,

Im new to this forum so hope im posting this in the right place but desperately need advice!

We have 2 house cats, loki and theo. They're 10 months old and have lived with us from 10 weeks. They're brothers and get on really well.

Back in March Loki had a water infection which causes him to wee outside his litter tray in the corner of our living room. We got him seen by the vet andhad treatment and he was fine.

Both cats were neutered in April.

Since then we kept a litter tray (1 of 3) in the spot where he'd weed behind the tv but its not ideal to have 2 in the living room and 1 in kitchen.

About a month ago i moved the one behind the tv to clean it out and while i was doing that loki decided to have a wee where it should be! There's another one in that room and onein kitchen so made no sense.

He's in good health. Playing and eating as normal although isnt as cuddly as he used to be. We took that litter tray out about a month ago. Spray the area regularly with simple solution *carpet and underneath ). We've tried putting plastic down, putting food in that spot, covering it with a massive plastic box and mostly hes good and uses his litter tray but occasionally goes and does it again. Tonight he's just been on the box!

We use a mix of wood pellets and catsan and clear the trays twice a day then clean at weekends. 

We dont know what to do or how to stop this and its driving us crazy! Please help! 

Ps i hope this makes sense and wasnt too rambly.


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## chillminx

Hi @ClaireJ - cats can be very particular as to where they like their trays to be sited and if Loki is happy to wee in his tray when there's one sited behind the TV then I urge you to leave it there, even if it is only used occasionally. Evidently he likes the position behind the TV perhaps because it is tucked away and private for him.

If he tends not to use the other tray in the Living Room maybe you could move that one to another area. Though generally I don't advise moving litter trays at all, once their position in the house is established.

As Loki is happy to use the litter trays most of the time, it may not be an issue with the type of litter. Though I wouldn't use wood pellets myself as they turn to wet sawdust when weed on and then contaminate the whole tray, which makes it very unpleasant for the cat to use. I believe if one uses the correct tray (called a Brit-Pet Sieve tray) with the wood pellets it works much better.

https://www.brit-pet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BP

Catsan is also not pleasant for cats to use if you are using the non-clumping type. For the same reason, it is impossible to scoop out the wet bits without contaminating the rest of the tray. Even the clumping Catsan gets smelly very quickly, and is also very dusty. So there is just a chance that Loki avoids the tray sometimes because of the litter being smelly.

I think it would be worth experimenting with a better quality litter, such as Cats Best Oko Plus. Most cats like it a lot, and it is brilliant at clumping and absorbing smells. It may cost more to buy but is so economical to use that a big bag lasts ages. Zooplus Uk sells a 12.7 kg bag for £24.99, which is £13 cheaper than [email protected] sells it for.

As Loki has had a urine infection in the past, I advise feeding him only a wet food diet, no dry. Any cat with a history of bladder problems, even if a one-off episode, is much better being on a wet food diet. It means that his fluid intake will be high, and so his urine will be more dilute and he will be encouraged to empty his bladder more often, thereby flushing it through and voiding any bacteria there might be. If his bladder is uncomfortable sometimes this could cause him to avoid the tray.


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## ClaireJ

Thank you @chillminx thatscreally helpful and thorough advice, you seem like an expert?

He uses all of the litter trays and they're all in quite private positions but we've changed the litter as your advice and are thinking it might be helpful to check them more often in case he likes them cleaner.

I think we're going to hold off putting one back behind the tv for now as that only went there when he had his uti, it was never planned to have one in that place as furniture was there. I think we left it in place for too long so would take some getting used to but if it happens again we'll put it back. He's been fine for the last 2 days (touch wood) so he knows to use the other two just on occasion slips up.

We'll aim for more wet food too, makes total sense and im going back to mixing a little water in too to increase water intake -his brother theo loves dry food so striking a balance is the aim or theo wont eat.

Who knew cats were so difficult!

Thank you for your advice!


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## ClaireJ

So, if i may...

Following my above thread we've had 4 good days, been changing the litter regularly etc. He hasnt been near the area behind tv but just now he has just climbed over his litter tray (in the corner of our lounge) and squeezed himself into the tiny space behind and weed on the carpet there. To our knowledge he's not done that before.

Im completely confused and nowmy partner is talking about rehoming them as nothing we're doing is stopping him.

Please help!


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## chillminx

Sorry to hear of the setback Claire.  Soiling issues can take a while to sort out, it is often not straight forward, and it is a matter of keep trying various strategies to find what works.

If you get to the point where you have tried everything and there is still a problem, then I think you should call on the services of a professional cat behaviourist who will come to your home, observe the kittens and advise you. You may only need one visit plus a telephone follow-up. The cost would be about £80, money well spent IMO if it solves the problem. If you have pet insurance then you can claim the cost on many policies providing the vet refers you.

These people are excellent and there may be one located near you>>>

http://www.capbt.org/

Meanwhile, as Loki deliberately avoided the tray and peed behind it then he is trying to tell you something is wrong. My first thought is that he has a bladder problem again, perhaps another UTI, or if not then feline cystitis (the latter cannot be diagnosed with a test only by symptoms). So I think you should get him checked by the vet.

If he gets the all clear, then it could be he dislikes the type of litter tray or the type of tray. Have you changed the litter to Oko Plus? Are the trays open type or covered? Give him open trays, and as a temporary measure until this problem is solved, put an incontinence sheet underneath the trays so that your carpet is safe, if he goes next to the tray. Inco pads have a soft surface and are cheap and disposable.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lille-Dispo...F8&qid=1444266655&sr=8-7&keywords=inco+sheets

Clean all soiled carpet areas thoroughly with a solution of Bio Laundry liquid. Or use Bio Tex Stain remover which is really effective. (buy from supermarket laundry products depts)

Deliberately choosing to pee away from the tray, preferring a soft surface is very typical of a cat with a UTI or cystitis. It is really important that you feed Loki a wet food diet as he has a history of bladder problems (UTI). A wet food diet is the ONLY way to be certain that Loki is getting plenty of fluids in his diet, so that his urine is more dilute and therefore he will be encouraged to empty his bladder more frequently thereby flushing it through so that any bacteria is also flushed out. Please please take Loki off all dry food, as I promise you a 100% wet food diet so often helps in these cases.

If you are concerned Theo won't eat unless he has dry food then you could buy Theo a Sureflap microchip feeder and put his food in that, so that Loki cannot get to it. I have three microchip feeders for my cats and they are brilliant. Expensive but worth every penny!

https://www.sureflap.com/en-gb/pet-feeder/microchip-pet-feeder

It's really important for this soiling problem to be resolved whilst Loki is still a kitten. If you re-home him with this problem you may feel you can't be honest with potential adopters about the true reason for re-homing because then no-one would want him. But the same unresolved soiling problem would no doubt resurface in his new home, and the new owner may react by re-homing him yet again, this time without his brother maybe. It could get to the point where poor Loki is passed from pillar to post, never being wanted. This is such a gloomy prospect for the little fellow I really pray that your partner is much too nice and compassionate a person to think of condemning Loki to a life like that.


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## ClaireJ

Hi thanks for your reply.

I've got him booked into the vets at 8pm tonight as i was concerned about uti and now like you say he's posssibly trying to tell us something so it seems like we need to get him checked to be sure.

We haven't bought the litter yet but inky because i dont get paid til next week so curently are a bit skint after shelling out following a plumbing emergency! 

Today we have only put wet food out for both and i mixed a little extra water in. Hopefully theo will be ok with it too!

I'll let you know what vet says. Im hoping i might be able to get a sample to take too although he's never let me before! 

I think my partner is getting really frustrated but after talking some more this morning neither of us want to be parted from them. They're like our babies. We just need to find out why and get it stopped as a smellt house would be pretty terrible too.


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## andrewjacson

Well done Shosh, I'm always so impressed by just how much time some members on here spend advising and helping out with kitty problem


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## ClaireJ

Hi, as per your advice Loki went to the vets last night. There was no bacteria in his bladder to suggesr a UTI but the vet suspects cystitis. Apparently male, black indoor cats are very prone to cystitis so we may have to get used to bouts of it.

We have 2 weeks of cystitis medicatio for him and i need to keep putting water in his wet food. The vet suggested reducing dry intake to approx 10% of his diet but not nessarily removing all together as he'll be more likely to steal his brothers!

She's advised we buy a water fountain too to increase his water intake as he's not great at drinking from the bowl and in the meantime moving the water away from where the food is.

Also, he's a bit overweight which we thought anyway so that will also contribute. We'd started cutting down his food anyway but theo is a grazer so walks away after a little then loki eats his brothers food too so a little retraining is needed and hiding theos food before he can get to it.

We go back to vets in 3 weeks to see how he's doing with it being a repeat case.

Fingers crossed!


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## chillminx

@ClaireJ - I.m glad you took him to the vet. It's a relief in one way to hear the vet thinks Loki has cystitis as there are things you can do to help. Has the vet given you Cystease or Cystophan? If so you can buy it online cheaper than from the vets. Pleased you will be reducing the dry food but I do think Loki would be better without any dry food in his diet.

The best way to be sure he can't eat Theo's food is to buy a Microchip feeder for Theo, which Loki would not be able to open.

Or to only feed Theo dry food when you are around to supervise him eating and then take the dish up and cover it.

Or yet better still, wean Theo off the dry food gradually, (it can be done I promise ) as it would be much better also for his health too, to be on a wet food diet.


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## ClaireJ

The plan is to wean them both off it if we can as theo may end up having same problem so would be much safer for him.

Im doing supervised dry food but mostly just adding a tiny sprinkle to theos wet so he still has some but encouraging him to eat the wet food and get water into him! Eventually id like to cut out dry treats too and give him chicken or fish as i cant imagine they'll be helping...not that he gets many, only once in a blue moon.

Im definitely glad we took him though, hopefully we can do all the things you and the vet advised and improve things for him.

I'll check the tablets when i get home too, great tip! 

Thanks for all your advice, you're so helpful. X


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## ClaireJ

Hi, sorry to say im back and we're still having problems and really don't know what to do!

Tuesday night my other half came home from work to find pee in the corner behind tv. We though ok maybe the cystoplus hasnt kicked in yet so put sticky paws down in the area and eucalyptus oil to keep him away from it.

We have in the past week got both cats on 90% wet food, adding water to it, bought a water fountain, changed the litter and cleaning it out regularly.

Tonight loki went in a completely different corner of the living room to ever before. 

I thought we'd turned a corner as he's been more playful the last couple days and then wanted cuddles this afternoon for the first time in ages. But now he's done it again.

We're back at vets in two weeks for a check up but im starting to think its behavioural? In which case its harder to work out since he only speaks cat and we now find ourselves on edge watching him constantly.

All ideas greatly accepted!


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## chillminx

Hi @ClaireJ , sorry to hear you are having problems still with Loki.

I know you have commented before that Loki has peed behind the TV in the living room and evidently he likes that spot. So can you not put a 
litter tray there for him? Sometimes for some reason he evidently needs feels he needs to pee away from the usual trays, and the problem is if you keep putting deterrents down in one place, (e.g. behind the TV) there is a risk he will find another corner to go (as he has now done), because his need is not being addressed. So I would put a small open tray behind the TV and leave it there and see what happens. Sometimes it really is more effective to go with what the cat is showing he wants, rather than trying to get him to adapt to what we think he should accept. 

It is best to bear in mind that cystitis can be an intermittent problem. Whilst Loki may be a lot better on a wet food diet and the Cystophan supplement, there could still be a lingering issue. It may resolve in time of its own accord, or it may not, depending on the cause. It may need treatment. Loki is a bit young to have crystals or stones in his bladder, but I have heard of it before in a young male cat. Has the vet tested a sample of urine taken by cystocentesis? (directly from the bladder). It could be that Loki remembers peeing behind the TV when his cystitis was bad, and now if he feels any twinges in his bladder he is drawn to go back there again.

The fact is he has been a bit better until this latest slip-up, and you have found him more relaxed and playful. So the cystitis could be stress-related perhaps. Can you think of anything in the environment that might cause him intermittent stress? It's a long shot I know.

I don't think he is scent-marking with his urine because it is not typical to do it in out of the way places. If it was scent marking he would be peeing on mats, in front of doorways, on the stairs etc, any areas in the home that are walked past a lot by the humans or the other cat(s).

If putting a litter tray behind the TV and getting Loki on to a 100% wet food does not help, then I would advise bringing in a cat behaviourist from the organisation I gave you the link for in a previous reply in this thread.

Please keep us updated.


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## ClaireJ

Hi, we are considering putting a tray back there yeah i think we're both trying to avoid it as its quite a small too so to have 2 trays in would be a bit much but we may have no choice. We're going to vets again next thursday so we're going to wait until then just so we can tell her exactly whats been going on.

Last time we were there she did the sample from bladder which had no bacteria but she did say the urine was very diluted, its likely that was because id been adding water to his food so she wants to check that again without me adding water for a week before just in case there's something else going on.

We've racked our brains trying to think of anything that might be stress related. He gets on great with his brother and doesn't seem to want to be outside (they're both indoor cats and have never been outside). We're going to get a couple new toys today in case he's bored as he's started to scratch at our bedroom door through the night. 2am, 4am. Whenever he wants attention, which isnt good but he's been through a few phases of this so its not new.

Yes I did check the link you sent and there are none in the north east, nearest is middlesex, maybe a gap in the market we could retrain?! 

Hopefully he'll improve soon. Regardless, rehoming isnt an option so we have to find a solution. I couldnt be seperated from him but id like my house to not smell! 

X


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## chillminx

I agree you don't want the house to smell and it's important to remove even the slightest whiff of urine so Loki is less likely to return to the previously soiled area of carpet.

The best thing I've found for removing urine stains from carpet is Bio Tex stain remover, which is an enzyme based powder available from supermarkets/hardware stores/amazon. It's excellent at removing any stains made by body fluids (feline and human!) and has the advantage of smelling quite pleasant (unlike some of the Pet Stain Removers, which smell horribly sweet and sickly).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-Sta...5167488&sr=8-2&keywords=bio-tex+stain+remover

With carpet, I found it is best to sponge it with cold water and then sprinkle some of the Bio Tex powder on, rub it in and leave it on for an hour, then sponge off making sure to remove all the soap. Or you can make a solution of water and powder and use that. You will need to roll back the carpet and treat the underlay too. It is not easy to remove smells from underlay unfortunately and you may find you need to cut the soiled piece out and replace (perhaps with newspaper). Also ensure you clean the floorboards underneath. Ideally you need to leave the wet area of carpet rolled back until it's dry.


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## Erostill

I have this problem with 2 cats one has FIC and wees blood everywhere even on me and one has decided she likes weeing on the kitchen surfaces and the beds Does anyone no a cat behaviourist in the uk?


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## chillminx

@Erostill, I have replied in your thread about your cat's FIC in Cat Chat.

If you need a cat behaviourist, these people are very good, there may be one near you. Have a look in the list.

http://www.capbt.co.uk/


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## Erostill

Yes just seen. Thank you I will have a look. I'm running out of ideas


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## Kabloomybuzz

So I got home from work last night to find that Schrodinger (99.9% sure its schrodi and not shilo as she isn't confused about where to go and I've caught him going somewhere other than the tray this morning) had pee'd on our bed... He'd managed to pee through a 13 tog duvet, bed sheet, mattress protector and through to the mattress so thats a duvet thrown away, bedding on a hot wash, mattress thoroughly sprayed and aired and kitties shut back out of the bedroom. And he poo'd on the floor.

Over the past couple of weeks we've changed litter trays and litter, they're starting to outgrow their trays and kicking litter out so last week I replaced one of them with a big rimmed tray and this week the other was replaced with a slightly smaller, but still bigger than what we had - rimmed one.

The litter I didn't realise would be quite so different or quite so unnerving for him. As I said, shilo's been fine and not batted an eyelid... we've changed from tact to pets at home. I order online and thought, they're both wood pellet litters, can't be so different. the PAH is much paler and has quite a strong pine smell. I really think its the litter and not the trays thats the problem as he was using the first new tray and he jumped in the 2nd one to investigate when it was new and empty. But just in case, I've filled one of the old trays with the new litter and put it in its old spot.t

This morning I could tell he was searching for somewhere to go, and when I caught him scratching and crouching in corners I took him to the tray... but I think that may have stressed him more and he got to the point of " I will pee anywhere BUT those trays" (this was before I'd got out the old tray... which so far he's sniffed at) and luckily for me, where he ended up going was on plastic so fairly easy cleanup.

What I've done is order some more tact and the plan is to switch back to that and gradually mix the two litters until he acceps the PAH... (we ordered 3 bags on offer!!) by taking a scoop out and adding a scoop in every other day or so... until that arrives on tuesday we'll just have to keep an eye on him and try to gently retrain him. Hope he watches his sister being fine.

any further ideas or input would be great... one thing that does concern me is - is it a problem for him to keep holding it and having one big wee a day which is what he's done the last 2 days... I'm sure its not a big issue in the short term but it can't be good for him if it keeps happening.


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## chillminx

Holding in his urine all day means it will become very concentrated (as cats have the ability to concentrate their urine), which is not ideal for him because of the risk of developing stones. It is better for his urine to be more dilute and for him to empty his bladder several times a day so it gets a flush through more often.

If you haven't had any problems before with Schrodi using the old litter, then I would revert to using that permanently. If he hates the pine smelling stuff (and who can blame him, it DOES smell really strong! ) then why do you need to persuade him to use the new stuff ? That way lies endless battles and heartache!  Let him have the stuff he likes. Please.

The new trays sound like a good idea if the others were getting too small though. Wash them thoroughly to get rid of the pine litter smell though. It is a very pervasive smell.

But actually if you are using wood pellet litter you should be using the correct tray for it which is the Brit-Pet Sieve tray. Then you can shake it to remove all the wet stuff and retain the clean dry stuff. Otherwise it is difficult to scoop the wet out without contaminating the dry.

https://www.brit-pet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BP


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## Kabloomybuzz

Thanks for your advice.

Unfortunately the poor boys going to have to wait until Tuesday until we get the tact litter. Petplanet seems to be the only place that stocks it and thats the fastest it could be delivered!

Will look into getting a brit pet tray in a month or two... I don't want to overwhelm them... particularly him when he's been so stressed with this already.... its a pity they don't seem to do a rimmed version since so much litter got kicked out of the non rimmed trays.


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## Kabloomybuzz

So success, we've had a wee and a poo this morning in the old tray in its old place but with the new litter (still no tact... but its a bit of a weight off if we miss the delivery tomorrow) Lots of praise and treat given.

Perhaps a big part of the problem was changing the 2nd tray as well as the litter too quickly after changing the first... if I'd known the PAH litter would be so different I would have just ordered tact separately... but they were described and pictured almost identically. Lesson learned.

I'm definitely happy to keep the old tray around for a bit longer if thats what he wants to use while its still just about big enough. They're due their neuter/spay in 2 weeks so no big changes until they've both fully recovered plus a week or two!

What I may do is keep new litter in old tray as i've seen he is OK using that, old litter in new trays and see if/ when he starts using them then after a few days slowly mix one scoop at a time one tray at a time. Any signs of further problems we'll just switch back to the old litter and see if our local rescue will accept donations of unopened litter


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## iUmka

I am replicating this post: Lettice is a ball of nerves! Recently, when asleep on the sofa, she suddenly jumped high in the air and ran out of the sitting room (she often 'sees' something there, ghosts, I suppose). On Sunday, a friend came by with his year old cockapoo - a silly loud pup; Lettice was very upset, so now we have been presented with two loads of poo - one on the rug where my husband usually spreads his yoga mat  and another - at the bottom of the stairs. As both cats are on raw, poo didn't smell for us to notice immediately. I have been thinking about getting some calming stuff - What would people recommend?


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## chillminx

@iUmka - I recommend Beaphar Calming Spot-on, a herbal remedy that is very effective for one of my cats without making him sleepy. It is also available as Calming Cat Treats or tablets. The Spot-on only needs to be given once a week. Buy from amazon.


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## jenna288

Hello - in desperate need of some advice. We have 2 kittens who are 5 months old. They are both very mild natured but lately I have been noticing that the ginger cat is more dominant than the tabby. He sometimes growls when the tabby goes near food he's eating, he seems more confident etc etc but they do get on very well other than that. Now we have had issues with the tabby not using the litter tray. we tried buying a second tray but that hasn't helped. He pees and poos wherever. We have to shut doors in the house all the time to keep him out of carpeted rooms but having 2 kids this doesn't always happen. I have cleaned the areas he pees properly but he still randomly picks spots to pee or poo. He has even started peeing and pooing in the bath! We clean the trays regularly but what I have noticed is that the ginger cat leaves his poo uncovered in the tray so I don't know whether this is a hierarchy issue. quite often the tabby will poo by the side of the tray. if this is a dominant cat issue how can I fix this?? thank you


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## chillminx

Hi @jenna288 and welcome 

Not all cats bury their poo, and some cats bury it sometimes but not other times. In itself it is not always a territorial issue, but combined with other behaviour it may be.
.
I must ask the vital question as to whether your two kittens have been neutered? If not, then you should get this done a.s.a.p. as they are likely to be sexually mature at 5 months and with them both being male (I assume) they are going to become very territorial, and possibly start spraying your house with urine.

Pooing away from the trays can be caused by the cat scent marking - it is known as "middening" and this can become more pronounced in an un-neutered male after sexual maturity arrives and they become more territorial. The longer you leave the neutering the more habituated Tabby will be to soiling and not using the trays.

It sounds as though your ginger kitten has already started becoming more protective of his resources and does not want to share them with his brother any more. Cats do not have a hierarchy, being naturally a solitary animal, but they are territorial creatures and very protective of their resources. So it is important that you provide a multiplicity of resources for your kittens so they do not have to share unless they want to.

The minimum number of litter trays for two cats is 3. But in the case of your kittens I would provide at least 4, possibly 5. The problem at present may be that Ginger kitten is subtly warning off Tabby kitten from using either of the trays, and that may be why he is using the floor. Though as said earlier it may be that Tabby is deliberately peeing ans pooing away from the trays because he is scent marking, claiming territory for himself.

Spread the trays around the house, some can be on shelves away from the children if you like, as long as the kittens have a safe route up and down and know the trays are there. Do not group 2 trays together, as that will be seen as one toiletting area, not two trays.

If any of the trays are covered trays remove the door flap. Cats dislike being in an enclosed space when they toilet, as they feel vulnerable to attack. Also it is bad for their lungs to inhale litter dust in an enclosed space, and ALL litters are dusty to some extent.

Use a litter that is like sand, easy to dig in and soft on little paws. Cats Best Oko Plus is well liked by cats and kittens, and clumps well, also absorbs smells well.

Feed the kittens in separate areas of the kitchen (or wherever you feed them) never side by side. Cats are often very protective of their food and are happier with their own feeding stations. Don't let them steal food from each other's bowls. Feed one cat on the floor and one on a table, shelf or worktop. Supervise meal times for the present until you are sure one kitten is not intimidating the other when eating.

Provide several bowls of water, placed around the home. Provide plenty of cat beds, cat scratchers, and hidey holes for them, also high places such as tall cat trees and shelves so they can retreat for peace and quiet on their own when they want.


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## jenna288

Hello  thanks for your quick reply. They have just been neutered (3 days ago). I think the problem isnt helped because we have quite a big (maze like!) house so its easy for them to be quite far from the tray but in saying that to be honest even if the tray is a few feet away he still opts for the floor. We do feed them side by side so i will try separating them. We have just started letting them out in the back garden - do you think i should remove the litter tray all together when they are outside? (i usually leave the trays in the utility room and they go out the back door from the utility room but I just thought if i could encourage them to pee / poo outside then its nobodies territory. I do tend to lock rooms off (mainly due to them being carpeted and to make it easier to keep track of them). I will also purchase a could more trays. How would you encourage the tabby to use the tray? im just worried that the ginger cat will take charge of those too. He has just pooed in the bath again so i think he thinks this is his area :s


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## Ceiling Kitty

@chillminx makes such a good curator in this thread!


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## chillminx

@jenna288 - I am pleased to hear they have been neutered  It will take a few weeks before their hormone levels fall, so if Tabby's soiling is related to his hormonal activity he will still be affected for a while yet.

There are two ways to try and get Tabby to use the trays. One is to put trays on the spots that he is using most. One of these is the bathtub, so put one there, (removing it when the bath is needed ). If the bathtub is where Tabby feels safe to toilet then it is possible he will be happy to use a tray there. If he is NOT happy to use a tray in the bath then he will go somewhere else to toilet and it will suggest there is something he dislikes about the trays, or the type of litter you are using. OR that he is avoiding the tray because he is middening, which [as explained earlier], is scent marking behaviour.

Middening tends to be done in easy to see places, e.g. in front of doorways, in the hall or landing, or next to the litter tray. The cat is making a statement and wishes it to be seen.

If he is soiling in tucked away places, e.g. behind furniture, or in corners, then it is probably not scent marking and instead is due to some physical discomfort he has when pooing, or he dislikes the trays.

Sorry if I am making it sound complicated, but the fact is there are quite a few reasons why a cat would soil, and it is a question of doing the detective work on the individual cat, plus using trial and error to find the solution. But don't worry, there will be a solution.

Does Tabby have soft or loose stools? or are they hard and dry looking so he has to strain to pass them? Either scenario could cause him to avoid the trays. His stools need to be firm and formed, but not hard. If they are not firm and formed then you need to review his diet. e.g. feed no dry food, feed wet food only.

Certainly get at least 2 extra trays.  When he soils mop up the urine with paper towel and place it in the tray. Let him see you do it, if possible, but please don't make an issue out of it. He must NOT under any circumstances ever feel you are cross with him about toiletting or you will make him anxious and the problem will get worse..

If he poos outside the tray, put the poo into the tray and leave it there a while so both cats can see it there, and Tabby can get the message that is where it belongs. .

As for them going outside to toilet, do you have a safe garden which they cannot escape from, or do you plan to supervise them the whole time they are outside? Otherwise they are still too young, silly and giddy to be allowed free to wander. They need to be at least a year old for that.

But assuming they will be kept safely in the garden, they might decide to toilet in your garden, as long as you have some nicely dug over flower beds they can use. Or else create an outdoor latrine for them in a set aside area. But bear in mind that some cats will always prefer to come indoors and use a litter tray instead, and if you take the trays away they will soil the floor. So you would have to keep the trays out all day and night until you were 100% sure both kittens were comfortable going outside to toilet.

You should still provide a couple of trays at night when they are shut indoors, and some people prefer to have an emergency tray available indoors all the time for outdoor cats just in case they don't want to go outside to toilet in bad weather.


----------



## jenna288

Thanks so much for all this advice  I have purchased extra trays and different litter. I tried the tray with the litter we orginally had and put it in the bath but he pooed at the side of the tray so i have since changed the litter. We've had a bit more success with the new litter although a couple of accidents but not as many. I keep putting him in the tray every now and again and sometimes he will wee so I keep giving him a treat when he does this. Im not sure how he would get on if i stopped doing this but will keep doing this for a while. They do go outside in the back garden but never leave the garden (its completely enclosed and I check on them every 15 mins) but they tend to want to come back in the house quite quickly. Hopefully we are getting somewhere! I am still keeping carpeted rooms closed off. Thank you again - you may have saved my sanity! x


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## chillminx

It sounds as though the type of litter could be part of the problem. It might be worth buying a bag of Kitten Attract litter, it isn't cheap but is very effective. You may only need to use it short term and then when he is using the tray, switch him over to e.g. Cats Best Oko Plus, which most cats like.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Attract...7902421&sr=1-1&keywords=kitten+attract+litter


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## Guest

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's contributed to this thread  According to the OH, a good hour or so after I left for work (and as he was getting ready for work) Bear decided that to use our mattress to pee on, and my (worn) pj top to poo on ^^; 

If he's doing both, rather than just spraying, is it likely to be territorial marking at all, or is it more likely to be something else? He's not yet neutered, although were bobbing him up to the vets tomorrow morning for a check up and to arrange neutering. (Side note, he's just over 5 months old)

We changed the litter almost a week ago now, but he's been happy using it up until then, the tray position hasn't changed, and was clean, so I don't think it's that?

I'm just worried that he's starting to mark the house - hence why I want him neutered ASAP


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## chillminx

@SammieJane, it can be scent marking if it is either urinating or defecating, or if both are done at the same time. [Defecating for scent marking is called "middening" btw.]

On the other hand it could be that your kitty has feline cystitis or an upset tummy. Feline cystitis can cause the cat to avoid the tray because they associate the tray with discomfort and instead pee on soft surfaces such as bedding or soft furnishings. Have you noticed him going to the tray frequently and not passing much or not passing anything?

If his stools are soft, or loose, or at the other extreme hard and dry so he is having to strain to pass them, then again this will be uncomfortable for him and cause him to avoid the tray.

A couple of things - provide him with more trays. Many cats like to pee and poo in separate trays. Use a litter that's soft on paws, easy to dig a hole in, and not dusty, e.g Cats Best Oko Plus is well liked by most cats. One big advantage is that it clumps really well, so the whole tray does not become contaminated after a couple of pees, as is the case with non-clumping litter. Position the trays in different rooms, so they are seen as separate toilet areas by your cat. If they are covered trays, remove the door flaps, as cats feel unsafe toiletting in a completely enclosed area.

At just over 5 mths old he could be approaching sexual maturity, so it's time to have him neutered. If his soiling was due to his hormones then once his hormone levels have dropped post-neutering (usually by a month after) he won't soil again. However, having said that, marking on a human's bed is not rare, even with a neutered cat, and can be caused by feelings of insecurity. Has anything recently changed in the home? e.g. Guests staying? Visitors? Work being done on the house? Arrival of a new pet? Arrival of a new human?  etc.


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## Guest

@chillminx thank you for such a detailed reply. I really appreciate it! I've just set up another litter tray in another room for him, he now has one covered and one uncovered so we'll see what he prefers  I'll definitely have a look at changin the litter, he seems to quite like the [email protected] wood based one but I'd love a clumping one. Would it be best if I provide him with a tray of each at first, and see how he gets on?

In all honesty I think he has a bit of an upset stomach, he's been a bit off colour this evening and hasn't eaten much which is very unlike him. Plus, his stools were particularly soft. I'm going to pop him up to the vets tomorrow for a check up etc since he's going to be chipped too.

I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary in terms of how often etc he uses the litter box, and we haven't had guests etc the only slight change in routine is that I had to leave for work an hour earlier this morning? In all honestly we've hardly had him any time at all (a few weeks) so he'll still be settling in and is probably still fairly stressed, it just seemed odd considering it's the first accident he's had since we got him home so I thought I would get some advice


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## chillminx

@SammieJane - I think the clue is the soft stools, along with him being off his food a bit. He feels unwell and is associating the tray with discomfort, hence he wants to avoid it.

Are you feeding him the same diet he was on before you got him? Changes to diet should only be made slowly and after he has settled in for a few weeks.

Has he been wormed since you got him? Do you know if the breeder wormed him?

It might be best to keep him out of your bedroom until his tummy is better, or he could have another 'accident' on your bed.

Re: the litter trays, yes, I would put one tray out with the new litter and one tray with the old litter, so he has a choice. If he likes the new litter, then you can do away with the wood pellets.


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## Guest

@chillminx so he was initially fine when we kept the bedroom door closed and used his litter tray without a problem. For some reason (unbeknownst to me!) The OH left the bedroom door open the next morning. Bear had just pooed in the litter tray, but immediately ran through and pooed on the bed.

Bedroom door shut again now of course, and last night he moved on to using the bath mat.

One thing I hadn't realised until this morning is that I picked up the wrong litter to replace our current one! He was initially using Smart Pet cat litter when we got him, but I picked up Smart Cat litter instead. To me, it looks, smells and functions the same, but maybe he can tell a difference? I've picked up some more Smart Pet litter this morning, so we'll see!

With regards to worming, he was wormed at the start of November with a monthly treatment, the vet wormed him again a couple of days ago, so I think he should be covered.

His stools are getting better, a bit firmer and less smelly so I think his stomach is settling a bit too 

I tried a separate tray of CatSan but he's been avoiding it, so wood pellet it is!

Thanks for your help!


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## Ceiling Kitty

I've just noticed that some of the picture links are broken. I'll try and fix them soon.


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## andrewjacson

We had a situation with the younger of our two kittens a couple of years ago. They are seven months difference in age. We switched to fragrence free litter and locked him in a room when unsupervised. We didn't let him out until he used the box and only for short times, one hour or so. That took about two weeks. Also he was peeing on one common spot, a sheet we had on a futon. No matter how often we washed it. Eventually we threw the sheet away and he was fine.


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## stez1234

Hello everyone.

I'm after some advice please. I have a large male ragdoll who will be 9 next month he is an indoor cat. Just after Xmas I had a new carpet fitted in my living room and ever since he has been pooing on the carpet around the edges. He is still weeing in his litter tray. I always make sure the litter tray is clean. He only does it when no one is around during the night or when I am at work. If I am here he will go in his litter tray. I am going to get some feliway to try and take him for a check up at the vets. Is there anything I can put down to deter him from doing this?


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## chillminx

Hi @stez1234 - in some cases there is not always just one reason why a cat starts to house soil. It can be a combination of reasons.

Firstly, many adult cats prefer to pee and poo in separate places, (kittens may be less particular) and now your cat is 9 mths old he may have reached this stage of his development. So give him a second large tray, perhaps an open tray if his other tray is covered. Site it well away from the first tray so he has two separate toilet areas in the house.

If his current tray is covered, it may be the case that for a large cat like a Ragdoll there may not be sufficient headroom inside the tray for him to squat upright in the defecating position. The position adopted for peeing is with the bottom lower, so headroom is less crucial.

Then there is the factor of the new carpet.. New carpets contain strong smelling chemicals (eg formaldehyde) that seem to attract cats to scent mark them. Cats can use either urine or faeces to scent mark their territory. The practice of scent marking with faeces is known as "middening". So there could be an element of middening in his behaviour.

I would make sure the carpet is cleaned thoroughly with an enzyme based cleaner such as Simple Solution, to remove all traces of scent, so he does not keep returning to the same places. It may also help to place an extra (3rd) small tray in the living room for now, to see if he will use that.

There is also a possibility he is avoiding the tray because he experiences discomfort when he defecates. His stools should be firm and formed, but not hard dry little lumps. When you pick the stools up off the carpet there should be no residue left. If they are soft or loose or at the other extreme are very hard, then it will be necessary to review his diet. With any kind of a bowel problem dry food should be avoided as it can cause loose stools or constipation in some cats.


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## stez1234

Hi @chillminx thank you for your reply. He is 9 years old not 9 months. I will give the carpet a good scrub tonight. 
He is only fed on dry food but his poo is normal and not dry or wet and there is no residue left when I pick it up. He will not eat wet food at all. I have tried so many different types and the most he does is lick the gravy or jelly off it! Same with tuna he just licks it.
I will add another litter tray upstairs and see if that makes a difference.


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## chillminx

stez1234 said:


> Hi @chillminx thank you for your reply. He is 9 years old not 9 months. I will give the carpet a good scrub tonight.
> He is only fed on dry food but his poo is normal and not dry or wet and there is no residue left when I pick it up. He will not eat wet food at all. I have tried so many different types and the most he does is lick the gravy or jelly off it! Same with tuna he just licks it.
> I will add another litter tray upstairs and see if that makes a difference.


Oops, silly me, misreading his age as 9 mths not 9 yrs! I am sorry! :Shamefullyembarrased

In that case as he is not a young cat it might be worth him having a check up at the vet for any possible health issues. Not that I am saying he is an 'old' cat, - far from it - but he is approaching the age (around 10) where chronic health issues can start to emerge in some cats. One example might be arthritis, which could impact on his ability to balance when he squats in the litter tray. I am not saying he has arthritis you understand, just mentioning it as a possibility. Also cats as they get older can change their toilet habits - meaning he may prefer a different type of tray or a different type of litter.

As you say - provide a second tray for him, make it an open tray, and use litter that is as sand like as possible, easy for him to balance on when he squats.


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## Yazman

So I need some help please!

I'm a pet parent of a 4 month old kitten who's developed this new urine marking problem. I do realise that cats might not have the capacity for 'revenge', and it comes across as petty anthropomorphism when I use that word, BUT I do find it bizarre that it all started after an unfortunate visit to the vet.

The day after experimenting with a new home-made treat, I rushed back from work and had to pick him up for his vaccinations. He was really unsettled during the visit and unlike the previous visit he kept meowing and digging around in his carrier. I realised he probably needed to go toilet, and he had to wait an hour for us to get back. He had an episode of really loose diarrhoea when we got home. It smelt bad, and he was obviously holding onto it for so long, which must have been uncomfortable.

Straight after that he went to my bed and peed on it. Since then he's done it three other times over the span of 2 weeks, even though the diarrhoea has settled, I stopped 'experimenting' with home-made food and have tried all the tips on this thread, including getting a whole new duvet and sheets that won't hold some of the scent. He's never had restricted access to any part of the house. He has two litter boxes now which he uses (one for poo and one for pee). He seems to dig a lot at the clumping litter which I guess means he likes it.

I have no clue what it could be. Is it because he hasn't been nuttered? The vet says he won't do it until he's 6 months old, and I think he's probably too young to be scent marking for sexual reasons.

The only thing I haven't tried is synthetic feline pheromone, which I am not keen on. Having to refill something every 4-6 weeks to keep him calm doesn't sound like a solution, but rather covering up a problem. 

Any tips appreciated! Please!


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## chillminx

Hi @Yazman and welcome 

First of all, please be reassured that your kitty is not soiling out of revenge. As you so rightly say, cats minds do not work like that, they live in the moment and do not bear grudges, ever.

However, having said that cats are renowned for developing associations between things. It is a survival instinct and they can be positive associations or negative associations.

As the soiling in your bed started after kitty's upsetting visit to the vet, it is possible there is a link. Peeing in the owners bed is something that kittens and cats do sometimes to comfort themselves. It can be done because they feel insecure or upset, and having done it once they may resort to it again if they need to comfort themselves another time.

Or the kitty could have intermittent feline cystitis and associate the litter tray with pain at those times, so peeing on a soft surface comforts them.

Or sometimes a kitty is scent marking if they pee somewhere that smells strongly of their human companion(s), and this would be done to mark their territory and reassure themselves. However as your kitten is only 4 months old he is maybe rather young to be doing that. Though it is not unknown for kittens to be sexually mature at 4 months..

There are many vets these days who will neuter earlier than 6 mths of age, especially if the kitten is spraying or scent marking in the home. But I am not convinced this is what is happening with your kitten,,,,,,,,,, am I right that he is your only cat? So he is not scent marking to protect his major resource (i.e. you) from other cats living in the home.

Can you confirm that his stools are always now normal i.e. they are firm and formed, not soft or sticky, or at the other extreme, not hard and dry? Because if (or when) they are abnormal consistency, he may feel uncomfortable in his bowel and his bladder, and it could be a trigger for him to pee in your bed.

If his stools are not of the ideal consistency it is a good idea to review his diet again. Dry food can cause loose stools in some cats, as can wet foods than contain cereals. If you are already, like many of us, feeding good quality foods from Zooplus, it could be foods that are high in offal such as heart, (e.g. Animonda Carny for Kittens) of which too much can cause loose stools.

Have you noticed at all that he sometimes goes frequently to the litter tray and passes only small amounts of urine, or none? When you clear away the clumps, are there a number of small clumps, or mostly nice big clumps? Cats are able,as you may know, of concentrating their urine, it is something they have retained from their origins as desert dwelling animals, and they also have a low thirst drive.
This is why a wet food diet is much healthier for cats, especially for kittens, as it means they are effortlessly getting enough fluids which enables their kidneys and bladder to work more efficiently.

I am guessing from what you said about home made treats that you are already feeding at least a part wet food diet. Can I recommend that you feed him ONLY wet food, including no dry treats. This will mean he is taking in more fluids in his food and his urine will be more dilute. More dilute urine means he will be encouraged to empty his bladder more often so it is flushed through, and more comfortable for him to pee.

I would also give him an extra tray for now - it need not be a large tray - and place it away from the other two trays.

I am afraid it is advisable to exclude him from your bedroom for the time being, until the association between comforting himself and urinating on your bed has been forgotten. However, just exclusion from the bedroom may not be sufficient as he may choose somewhere else to pee. So it is important to adopt a multi-faceted approach as described above. 

Please let us know how things go.


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## Mary Adam

Hi everyone.

My cat was doing her business everywhere but I eventually found out the problem was that the cat litter tray had some scent that she rejected. Switching to a more neutral scented sand did the job, and after I cleaned everything and put a rag she did her business on in the cat litter tray and that's how convinced her to go there. After 2-3 days I removed the rag and she continued to use the litter tray. 

Thank you for this helpful post.


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## Chickweed

I have a 4 month old kitten who the breeder said was litter trained (I've had him 10 days). Unfortunately he was trained to just use newspaper in the litter tray - which I find very strange, but there we are. I've provided him with a litter tray upstairs and downstairs - which he has very occasionally used. The majority of the time, though, anything that is cloth is fair game, including soft cat beds, cat blankets and, worse than anything else, my bed. He has wee'd and pooed on it 3 times now. I'm at my wits end. I have a female cat, aged 4, and they get on beautifully, playing and sleeping together. My whole house now stinks of cat wee. Help!


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## chillminx

Hello @Chickweed and welcome 

Yes, unfortunately some breeders (e.g. Back Yard Breeders) use newspaper in the litter trays for the kittens as a way of scrimping and scraping to save money. It is a very bad practice, as it can be so difficult to get the kitten to use proper cat litter in their new home. I am afraid you will need to be super patient with him and start his litter tray training again.

The other thing about a kitten being given newspaper is they get their feet wet using the tray, which they hate, and so this gives them a negative view of the tray from the start.

So start his training as follows:

1. He should not have access to the whole house as he is soiling. Confine him to one good size room (not a bathroom or utility room) with his litter trays, food, water and cat bed. Preferably a room with a hard floor (easy to clean) and no soft furnishings.

2. He must have two litter trays in his room and they must be located apart from each other, and well away from his food and water.

3. Put newspaper in one tray and a puppy training pad in the other tray. Put training pads on the floor around the trays. The idea is to gradually transfer him to using puppy pads rather than newspaper as the pads are more hygienic and absorbent.The aim will be to transfer him to using cat litter. (buy the puppy pads from amazon or ebay)

4. Never scold him for soiling the floor but praise him loads when he does use the trays.

5. If he pees on the floor mop it up with kitchen paper towel and place it in the litter tray, so he will smell it there..

6. If he poos on the floor etc pick it up and put it in the litter tray, so he will see it there. Clean the floor thoroughly where he has soiled with pee or poo, with an enzyme cleaner such as Simple Solution.

7. Once he is using the trays every time with the paper and pads in them, buy a product called Cat Attract Litter. It is not cheap but it works. You should only need it short term, then you can switch him to a good clumping cat litter.

8. Add a little Cat Attract Litter at one end of one tray, and if he accepts it, gradually increase until the tray bottom is covered. Gradually add Cat Attract Litter to the other tray.

9. Once he is using the trays every time you can allow him access to the rest of the house, though I would shut him out of rooms such as your bedroom when you are not there to supervise him. Bear in mind it may take a month for him to learn to use the trays properly.

10. Review his diet. Feed him only wet food, no dry food at all. Dry food can cause low level dehydration, especially in a kitten, and thus make his urine concentrated and possibly uncomfortable to pass. A wet food diet will increase the volume of urine making it more dilute and he will be encouraged to pee more often which is what we want.

11. If his stools are too soft or too hard this can cause him to avoid the tray. The stools should be firm and formed and leave no residue if you pick them up off the floor. Dry food can cause loose stools in some cats, or constipation in others. Dry food does not protect teeth btw.

12. Make sure you have got rid of all traces of urine odour from your bed, or he will keep going back there to pee (once you eventually allow him access again). If he wet the mattress, sponge it clean with enzyme solution or bio laundry liquid and fit a towelling waterproof mattress cover to protect it.

Good luck - please let us know how things go.


----------



## Chickweed

chillminx said:


> Hello @Chickweed and welcome
> 
> Yes, unfortunately some breeders (e.g. Back Yard Breeders) use newspaper in the litter trays for the kittens as a way of scrimping and scraping to save money. It is a very bad practice, as it can be so difficult to get the kitten to use proper cat litter in their new home. I am afraid you will need to be super patient with him and start his litter tray training again.
> 
> The other thing about a kitten being given newspaper is they get their feet wet using the tray, which they hate, and so this gives them a negative view of the tray from the start.
> 
> So start his training as follows:
> 
> 1. He should not have access to the whole house as he is soiling. Confine him to one good size room (not a bathroom or utility room) with his litter trays, food, water and cat bed. Preferably a room with a hard floor (easy to clean) and no soft furnishings.
> 
> 2. He must have two litter trays in his room and they must be located apart from each other, and well away from his food and water.
> 
> 3. Put newspaper in one tray and a puppy training pad in the other tray. Put training pads on the floor around the trays. The idea is to gradually transfer him to using puppy pads rather than newspaper as the pads are more hygienic and absorbent.The aim will be to transfer him to using cat litter. (buy the puppy pads from amazon or ebay)
> 
> 4. Never scold him for soiling the floor but praise him loads when he does use the trays.
> 
> 5. If he pees on the floor mop it up with kitchen paper towel and place it in the litter tray, so he will smell it there..
> 
> 6. If he poos on the floor etc pick it up and put it in the litter tray, so he will see it there. Clean the floor thoroughly where he has soiled with pee or poo, with an enzyme cleaner such as Simple Solution.
> 
> 7. Once he is using the trays every time with the paper and pads in them, buy a product called Cat Attract Litter. It is not cheap but it works. You should only need it short term, then you can switch him to a good clumping cat litter.
> 
> 8. Add a little Cat Attract Litter at one end of one tray, and if he accepts it, gradually increase until the tray bottom is covered. Gradually add Cat Attract Litter to the other tray.
> 
> 9. Once he is using the trays every time you can allow him access to the rest of the house, though I would shut him out of rooms such as your bedroom when you are not there to supervise him. Bear in mind it may take a month for him to learn to use the trays properly.
> 
> 10. Review his diet. Feed him only wet food, no dry food at all. Dry food can cause low level dehydration, especially in a kitten, and thus make his urine concentrated and possibly uncomfortable to pass. A wet food diet will increase the volume of urine making it more dilute and he will be encouraged to pee more often which is what we want.
> 
> 11. If his stools are too soft or too hard this can cause him to avoid the tray. The stools should be firm and formed and leave no residue if you pick them up off the floor. Dry food can cause loose stools in some cats, or constipation in others. Dry food does not protect teeth btw.
> 
> 12. Make sure you have got rid of all traces of urine odour from your bed, or he will keep going back there to pee (once you eventually allow him access again). If he wet the mattress, sponge it clean with enzyme solution or bio laundry liquid and fit a towelling waterproof mattress cover to protect it.
> 
> Good luck - please let us know how things go.


Thank you so much for replying. I must admit I'm at the end of my tether: he was supposed to bring joy to the household, instead of which I'm a nervous wreck!

I wouldn't dream of scolding him - it certainly isn't his fault and he is gorgeous in every other way. I thought I'd picked a reputable breeder as he was advertised as being GCCF registered. Unfortunately I didn't get that cert and when I emailed her asking for it she said his parents were registered but she hadn't registered him as she assumed I wouldn't want to show or breed him, and she didn't appear to hold the organisation in very high regard(!). Made me uneasy but I haven't pursued.

I was very surprised when she told me about the litter tray/newspaper as I'd never heard of it before, but just assumed I would be able to gradually introduce him to litter.

I am going to follow all your steps. Unfortunately I can't confine him to a room with hard floor and no soft furnishings but I have confined him to living room and kitchen, which is the best I can do.

He doesn't like kibble, anyway, so only gets wet food.

I'll let you know how I get on and, once again, thank you for your advice.


----------



## Yazman

chillminx said:


> Hi @Yazman and welcome
> 
> First of all, please be reassured that your kitty is not soiling out of revenge. As you so rightly say, cats minds do not work like that, they live in the moment and do not bear grudges, ever.
> 
> However, having said that cats are renowned for developing associations between things. It is a survival instinct and they can be positive associations or negative associations.
> 
> As the soiling in your bed started after kitty's upsetting visit to the vet, it is possible there is a link. Peeing in the owners bed is something that kittens and cats do sometimes to comfort themselves. It can be done because they feel insecure or upset, and having done it once they may resort to it again if they need to comfort themselves another time.
> 
> Or the kitty could have intermittent feline cystitis and associate the litter tray with pain at those times, so peeing on a soft surface comforts them.
> 
> Or sometimes a kitty is scent marking if they pee somewhere that smells strongly of their human companion(s), and this would be done to mark their territory and reassure themselves. However as your kitten is only 4 months old he is maybe rather young to be doing that. Though it is not unknown for kittens to be sexually mature at 4 months..
> 
> There are many vets these days who will neuter earlier than 6 mths of age, especially if the kitten is spraying or scent marking in the home. But I am not convinced this is what is happening with your kitten,,,,,,,,,, am I right that he is your only cat? So he is not scent marking to protect his major resource (i.e. you) from other cats living in the home.
> 
> Can you confirm that his stools are always now normal i.e. they are firm and formed, not soft or sticky, or at the other extreme, not hard and dry? Because if (or when) they are abnormal consistency, he may feel uncomfortable in his bowel and his bladder, and it could be a trigger for him to pee in your bed.
> 
> If his stools are not of the ideal consistency it is a good idea to review his diet again. Dry food can cause loose stools in some cats, as can wet foods than contain cereals. If you are already, like many of us, feeding good quality foods from Zooplus, it could be foods that are high in offal such as heart, (e.g. Animonda Carny for Kittens) of which too much can cause loose stools.
> 
> Have you noticed at all that he sometimes goes frequently to the litter tray and passes only small amounts of urine, or none? When you clear away the clumps, are there a number of small clumps, or mostly nice big clumps? Cats are able,as you may know, of concentrating their urine, it is something they have retained from their origins as desert dwelling animals, and they also have a low thirst drive.
> This is why a wet food diet is much healthier for cats, especially for kittens, as it means they are effortlessly getting enough fluids which enables their kidneys and bladder to work more efficiently.
> 
> I am guessing from what you said about home made treats that you are already feeding at least a part wet food diet. Can I recommend that you feed him ONLY wet food, including no dry treats. This will mean he is taking in more fluids in his food and his urine will be more dilute. More dilute urine means he will be encouraged to empty his bladder more often so it is flushed through, and more comfortable for him to pee.
> 
> I would also give him an extra tray for now - it need not be a large tray - and place it away from the other two trays.
> 
> I am afraid it is advisable to exclude him from your bedroom for the time being, until the association between comforting himself and urinating on your bed has been forgotten. However, just exclusion from the bedroom may not be sufficient as he may choose somewhere else to pee. So it is important to adopt a multi-faceted approach as described above.
> 
> Please let us know how things go.


Thank you for the info! I thought I'd give it a few weeks to see how things go and he's been fine! He's done it once since this thread, but I was lazy with washing one of his litter boxes, which I noted he wasn't using very often. After which he peed on my duvet.

It seems like you're right, he's made this associations with bed being his go to place when he's upset with something! But other than locking him out of the bedroom when I'm not there, I can't really think of anything else to do!

Thanks again for your help!


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## chillminx

Hi @Yazman - I'm glad to hear things have been better. 

If you are going to allow him access to your bedroom when you are not there then I advise you to protect your bed every day. This means buying a waterproof cover such as a towelling mattress cover and placing it on top of the bed covers then placing a washable throw or sheet on top of that to disguise it. With the bed covered your kitten won't smell your scent so easily and then he may not pee on the bed anyway.


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## Chickweed

Chickweed said:


> Thank you so much for replying. I must admit I'm at the end of my tether: he was supposed to bring joy to the household, instead of which I'm a nervous wreck!
> 
> I wouldn't dream of scolding him - it certainly isn't his fault and he is gorgeous in every other way. I thought I'd picked a reputable breeder as he was advertised as being GCCF registered. Unfortunately I didn't get that cert and when I emailed her asking for it she said his parents were registered but she hadn't registered him as she assumed I wouldn't want to show or breed him, and she didn't appear to hold the organisation in very high regard(!). Made me uneasy but I haven't pursued.
> 
> I was very surprised when she told me about the litter tray/newspaper as I'd never heard of it before, but just assumed I would be able to gradually introduce him to litter.
> 
> I am going to follow all your steps. Unfortunately I can't confine him to a room with hard floor and no soft furnishings but I have confined him to living room and kitchen, which is the best I can do.
> 
> He doesn't like kibble, anyway, so only gets wet food.
> 
> I'll let you know how I get on and, once again, thank you for your advice.


Fingers crossed: I've confined him to living room & kitchen for last 2 days and he is using tray with puppy pad.


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## chillminx

@Chickweed - that's good news! I hope the progress continues.


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## Moggyman

I have a 16 year old female Persian. She was a rescue cat and has been with me 3 years. Up until a few months ago she had no problem at all using the litter trays I put down in my utility room which adjoins my kitchen. At first I thought she had some sort of problem because the solids were in the trays but there was no sign of fluids. I then discovered that she had started using one of 2 doormats in the room for piddling. I removed the soiled one, cleaned the area and put a tray where the mat had been. She used the tray a couple of times then started to use the other doormat! I got rid of that one too and blocked off that area.

She briefly went back to using the trays but then started piddling on the floor - luckily it's lino. She then decided that the lino was the best place to poo as well. More scrubbing and cleaning ensued and she then decided that the kitchen floor (also lino) was a better bet. I tried everything to get her back to using the trays. I repeatedly scrubbed the kitchen floor, got all new litter trays and when I changed from lightweight litter to wood pellet she started to widdle in the trays again but still did the other on the floor. I've tried a large tray, covered tray and even a tray intended for grow-bags which was only about 2 inches high (just in case she was having trouble with the lip of a normal tray) and about 4ft long - despite coaching she ignored it.

I've now had no option but to confine her to the utility room when I'm not there and overnight. No matter how many clean trays I put down for her she still won't use them. Only this morning she was desperate for a poo and I caught her about to squat on the lino. I gently lifted her on to a tray and held her there but no joy. She immediately began to squat on the floor as soon as I let her go. We repeated this on 4 different trays but she was so desperate after the 4th attempt that as soon as she got off the tray 'it' just came out on the floor.

I've tried standard bleach (before I found out not to use it!), citrus-scented bleach, scrubbing the floor with a mixture of warm water and biological washing powder (a tip from the Manager at the Cats Protection shelter I volunteer at), covering the floor in plastic sheeting and various other bits of advice - still no joy. The Vet said it could be the onset of dementia/senility but in all other aspects she's tip top. I can't see it being stress as she is the most bomb-proof cat I have ever owned. She doesn't bat an eyelid when there's a noise, I can hoover around her and anyone can come in to the house and cuddle her. I've seen no sign of other cats roaming around in the garden either.

Can anyone out there offer me some advice? I am at a loss.

Thanks


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## chillminx

Hi @Moggyman and welcome to the forums. 

Have I understood correctly that your cat is now back to using the trays for weeing in but not for pooing in?

If so then this would suggest that she knows what the trays are for but is making a decision not to use them for pooing in. The reason for this is that she is making negative associations with the trays when it comes to pooing.

Can I ask are her poos firm and formed, not soft, loose or sticky? Nor hard and dry? 
How many times a day does she poo? Once a day would be normal for an adult cat.

When she poos does she do it near the tray? If not, does she poo in obvious places such as a doorway, door mat, etc, or does she do it out of sight in a corner, or behind the TV etc.

Does she appear to strain when defecating?

What are you feeding her? If she has any dry food it could be that she is not drinking enough water to hydrate it, so her stools are uncomfortable to pass.

Is she your only cat?

The fact is that cats in their senior years sometimes develop idiosyncrasies about using the litter tray. As your vet said, possibly due to the onset of dementia. It can sometimes be related to the position where the tray is sited in the house - the cat suddenly decides the place is no longer where s/he wants it..

One of my outdoor cats at the age of 16 began objecting to using either of the trays in the kitchen or the cloakroom for pooing in. He also stopped going outside to poo. Instead he chose a spot on the floor in the sitting room. It wasn't a very convenient choice I must say, but after a couple of attempts to try to get him to use the kitchen or cloakroom trays (by buying new much larger trays) I decided to give him what he wanted and placed a tray in the sitting room in the exact spot where he'd been pooing. He was happy with that and there was no more tray avoidance.

But in your case I understand you've already tried moving the trays to the spots where she has been pooing and she still avoids the trays. So evidently it is something else bothering her, and it seems likely to be the trays themselves, not the position of the trays.

When a cat defecates she/he needs to squat in an upright position (unlike when they pee). If a senior cat has a bit of arthritis they may not find it easy to balance in that upright position perched on cat litter. The cat may therefore feel the floor as a more solid surface is a safer bet.

So as an experiment I would empty the cat litter out of one of the trays and instead put a puppy training pad in it, which you cut to fit. I would also add an extra tray, with a puppy pad in it, so she has 2 trays for pooing in.

When she next poos on the floor pick up the poo and place it in the tray on the puppy pad. Don't pick her up and show her it in the tray as she will think she is being scolded and we want to avoid her feeling that. If you can bear to leave the poo in the tray for half an hour that would be good, as she may see it there. Then dispose of it and replace the puppy pad with a clean one.

Keep this plan up for a few days, so she has the chance to work out what it is you want her to do. If we can get to the point where she uses the puppy pad trays reliably every time then you could start adding a very small amount of cat litter on top of the pad. In time you may be able to do without the pad. However I would keep a shallow depth of litter in the trays for pooing in,and empty them out completely every day.

For the poo trays I'd use a litter that's as comfortable as possible for her to balance on when she squats, i.e. not wood pellets, but one such as Worlds Best which is quite like sand. Use only unscented litter.

Leave one tray with wood pellets as she seems to like this type of litter for peeing on.

In total therefore you will have 3 X-large open trays - one for peeing in, two for pooing in. Do not group the trays together, spread them around so there are three different toiletting areas. But keep to spots she has been used to, if you can.

If she shows no interest in using the trays with the puppy pads in you could try placing the pads directly on the floor in the spots she has been using to poo.

Please let us know how things go. If there is no progress we need to go back to the drawing board and think of other possible avenues to explore for a solution.


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## Moggyman

Thanks for all the advice Chillminx. At the moment she is using the trays for neither. She poos either on a large mat I have in the utility room or (more likely) on the lino just outside the downstairs loo there. Not right beside a tray though. At the moment she is peeing next to a tray right outside the kitchen door - always a lovely surprise to be had when I come home and open the kitchen door to the utility room! From Day 1 she was quite happy to use Sainsbury's light odour control litter but when all this first started I tried different litters and only scored some success with the wood pellets - now I have no success at all.

In answer to your questions - yes she's my only cat, doesn't appear to have any problem straining when she goes, I'd say her poo is 'normal' in that it can be slightly soft one day, a bit harder the next, she eats 2 types of Royal Canin biscuits and likes her Felix crunchy treats, maybe some ham now and again and I always make sure she has plenty of fresh water. Frequency is either one a day or one every 2 days. The trays are dotted around the utility room rather than being clumped together. I hate shutting her in there but if I don't then I come home to nasty stuff all over the kitchen floor - thankfully she never progressed to carpeted areas - a clue to someone perhaps? At least it is dry and comfy there and I have an electric heating pad placed under a fluffy towel which she loves. I'd still much rather she enjoyed the rest of the house though.

I'll try the training pad approach and see if that has any positive results!

Thanks again


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## Sacrechat

I used puppy pads on the floor with one of my boys when he stopped using trays, and it worked a treat, so definitely worth a try. He never went back to using trays with cat litter, but it made cleaning up after him much easier.


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## jaycee05

I had a cat similiar age to yours, she was diagnosed with Colitis,and she wouldnt use a tray either,i resorted in the end to putting newspapers down close to the trays,sometimes she did both at once, has she been tested for anything like this,although she often croied out before she poed, but not at first, sadly in the end she had Lymphoma,
I washed the floor with a biological cleaner ,then when dry a drop of surgical spirit rubbed on th dame place, keeping the cat away from it until dry, but it does remove the smell,which can help with them not going back to the same spot,
Hope you can work out what is going on to resolve it


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## LeahLoki

Great thread, some very useful information. 
I have two cats, brothers, and one of them has a problem where he urinates in the same spot overnight. 
The cats are let outdoors during the day, seem incredibly happy in the house too, they play together, they're very affectionate with us and they even groom each other. Overnight, they are locked in the kitchen. It's a big room and they have toys, two clean litter trays, hidden treats, beds and they can't see outdoors (there are other cats in the area and I don't want them seeing them in the garden). But one of the cats pees next to or on the kitchen door each night. He used to do this last year but with the use of Pet Remedy and various other things mentioned in this post, it stopped, with the exception of when a friend looked after them once when we were away. 
I just wondered if anyone could contribute a reason why my cat is doing this when I can't find he source of the stress. I'm thinking of putting blinds on the kitchen doors so he can't see into the lounge or other rooms. Im going to now adopt every method in this post to try and tackle it again but it would be better if I could just solve the problem that's causing it in the first place.


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## chillminx

Hi there @LeahLoki and welcome. 

If bladder health problems such as cystitis have been ruled out by the vet, then as you say this is probably a scent marking issue.

When you say "kitchen door" do you mean the back door leading to the garden? If so then it is quite likely a strange cat is spraying the outside of your back door, which your cat can smell and he is therefore responding in a similar way.

You would need to wash the outside of your back door every day with either Simple Solution or an excellent product called Bio Tex Stain Remover which you add water to. You can even use a solution of Bio Laundry liquid. All of them contain enzymes that help eradicate the smell of the urine.

Even if it is not your back door your cat is spraying,but an inner door, it could still be a response to the scent of another cat's spray on the back door. I see no reason why your cat should be reacting to the view into the lounge, assuming you don't have another cat in there! 

If reaction to a strange cat's scent marking is the cause of the problem then really the best permanent solution would be to keep other cats out of your garden, by erecting cat proof fencing. Or have an enclosed porch built on your back door, so there is more of a barrier between your cats and the outside world.


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## LeahLoki

Hi @chillminx thanks for your reply! The kitchen is between my lounge and conservatory but does have one external window so I will take your advice about cleaning the back door because there are other cats around. 
He has had bladder problems before - crystals in the urine - but he has been treated for that and when that was happening to him he would urinate almost anywhere because he wouldn't make it to the tray. So I think you're right that this is marking. 
I will take the advice on board and let you know how it goes! Thanks


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## Rolacolacube

Hi all

I'm really hoping someone can help me and my cats. I have 4 cats - 5 year old, 4 year old, 17 week old and 14 week old. The problem I am having is with 1 or both of the kittens. I have a boy and a girl with the boy being the youngest. They are both rescues. I have been fostering the boy since he was 6 days old. He always had accidents when he was younger but I put this down to him still training. He used to soil next to the litter tray for example. He now soils in the litter tray, but also around the flat I live in. The main area was the bath but he has now started soiling on my kitchen floor and sometimes on my living room floor. It's always poop on the floor or bath with the occasional wee in the bath. The girl kitten did have a few accidents when she first came to me but although I can't be certain, I'm pretty certain most of the accidents are from the boy.

I have researched as much as possible. We now have 7 litter trays around the flat (which I would ideally like to reduce as it's too many I think and I don't want to have to keep the one in the kitchen). We have a mix of hooded and non hooded, use 2 types of litter (as suggested by my vet) but nothing is stopping the behaviour.

The little boy is healthy (digestion wise) but does have ringworm which he is being treated for. He has very loose stools also. About a month ago, we had to take him to the vets as liquid was just running out of him and after treatment, his stools improved but they have worsened since then but not to the point they were. I don't believe this is why he isn't using the trays some of the time. He isn't vaccinated as he hasn't been well enough yet as the vet wouldn't do it when he had a bad tummy and now won't because of the ringworm.

Can anyone help? I feel like I've tried everything possible but fingers crossed there is something else I can try as I need to get this sorted.

So sorry for the long post.

Thank you xx


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## chillminx

@Rolacolacube, it sounds like you have your hands full with the little fellow at present.

The fact he has loose stools or diarrhoea is very much going to affect whether he soils or uses the litter trays. Any kind of abnormality in the workings of a cat's bladder or bowels is likely to be a cause of them avoiding the tray. Partly it is because they start to associate the litter tray with pain or discomfort, and partly it is an instinctive need to defecate away from the usual toiletting area for hygiene reasons, i.e. so they do not reinfect themselves.

Has the kitten been wormed since you got him?

I think you would do best to tackle this as possibly being a dietary issue, so I would start by feeding the little guy plain cooked chicken and cooking juices, nothing else (except water) until his stools firm up. If he won't eat chicken you can substitute poached white fish.

Drumsticks are tastier than breast meat, and you can poach, boil it, or roast in a pan in the oven with about 1.5 inches of water and covered with baking foil. Cook for 1 hour at gas mark 5. Serve off the bone. The juices should be kept and refrigerated over night then the fat skimmed off the top. You'll be left with a nice jelly you can reheat a little at a time to add to the cooked chicken.

If the stools don't firm up on the chicken diet then I would be looking at collecting a 3 day pooled sample of his stools for testing for parasites or bowel infection. Your vet can arrange for the samples to be sent to the lab, or you can contact Pinmoore Animal Lab Testing Service yourself direct if you wish.

http://www.palsvetlab.co.uk/

If his stools firm up you can gradually transfer him back to cat food, but I would avoid all dry food as it so often can be the cause or exacerbation of diarrhoea.

Once the stools are firm if he poos on the floor you can pick the stools up and place them in the nearest litter tray and leave them for a while. It would be good if he sees you doing that, but I wouldn't make a big thing out of it or tell him off as it could make him anxious. The aim with a kitten of his age should be a maximum of two poops a day, which are firm and formed but not hard, and they should leave no residue when picked up off the floor.

For the moment I would put some puppy training pads next to the litter trays and in spots where he has been soiling as he may be more inclined to use those than the trays at present.. They are not a permanent solution but a temporary one and easier to clean up than the floor. If he starts to use the puppy pads you could try putting a clean one in an empty litter tray and see if he will use that.

Please let us know how things go.


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## Rolacolacube

@chillminx Thank you so much for your reply. I was hoping it would be you as you seem so knowledgeable.

We have wormed him with panacur but he is due another round of wormer soon. The only time his stools improved was when the vets gave us medicated sensitive wet food. He did well on that but obviously it's not a long term solution. We've tried doing chicken only (although this was when he was poorly the last time) and dry only and then introduce wet but it never seems to improve how loose the stools are; it just seems to change the colour of the stool. We've bought some diarrhoea medication so are going to try him on that too.

Dry food (mix of purina one, purina hairball and purina sensitive) is always down as my older 2 won't eat anything other than dry (not even chicken or fish). The wet food we are limiting but that's difficult as both kittens adore it!

What is odd is that the only room to not have a litter tray in (our bedroom) is the only room he hasn't pooped in (which is good but strange!).

We'll definitely try the chicken again although dry food will always be available because of my older 2.

We've got puppy pads too so will give that a go also.

Thank you so much. Wish me luck! xx


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## chillminx

Thank you for your appreciative words. 

As your older cats are on dry food it would be worth investing in a microchip feeder, which only the older two can access, ie. you would scan in their chips but not the kittens'. This would be a good starting point for the little guy as you would then be ruling out dry food as a possible cause of his loose stools. Because unless you can guarantee he is only getting the cooked chicken I fear you will never know whether it could be a dietary issue or something else going on.

https://www.sureflap.com/en-gb/pet-feeder/microchip-pet-feeder

I have 4 of these feeders for my cats and they are brilliant, worth every penny!

I am not sure what 'medicated sensitive wet food' is - do you mean e.g. Royal Canin Sensitivity wet food, or Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal? If so those are not actually medicated foods, but 'prescription foods' or veterinary foods, although in fact one can buy them online without a prescription.  Or do you mean a food that actually contains a medicine such as kaolin which firms the stools?

I never had success feeding RC Gastro Intestinal, but the RC Sensitivity I have found very useful over the years and now always have some in the store cupboard for the odd occasions when any of my cats have an upset tummy. RC Sensitivity contains hydrolised protein which is a bit easier for the cat's tummy to digest.

I am not advising putting your little guy on RC Sensitivity wet permanently, as hopefully it should not be necessary. But if feeding him it makes a difference it would be worth putting him on it for the short term whilst in the process of resolving the soiling issues and determining what is causing the loose stools.

But for the moment I think the priorities are to get him off the dry and onto the plain cooked chicken or white fish, and if that brings no improvement to have some stool samples tested at the lab.

The fact he has not soiled in your bedroom may be because he is aware he needs to use the trays, but is uncomfortable doing so, so he soils near them or in the same room. Were it not for the fact his stools are loose I might be leaning more towards thinking he is soiling as a form of scent-marking known as 'middening'. It might be more likely he was scent marking (middening) if he had only started doing it recently as he approaches sexual maturity. But as I understand it he has been soiling to some degree ever since you got him I tend to think it is more likely due to the loose stools.

Is he due to be neutered soon? I guess the vet may want to wait until his health is better, i.e. he has recovered from the ringworm. Just thinking that on the basis of the small chance that he is 'middening', it may stop once he is neutered. As said I doubt that is the cause but it can be worth covering all bases when trying to resolve these problems.

Please let us know how things go.


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## Rolacolacube

Thank you once again for your reply.

Those feeders look amazing! Money is a little bit of an issue at the moment but we will definitely look into then at a later date, especially as my 4 year old is overweight. We did put her on a diet but it's been hard to maintain since the kittens arrived.

Sorry I should have explained more. Yes it was Royal Canin from the vets (can't remember which one). We also tried him on Kaolin too.

As soon as he is old enough and well enough, he will be neutered. We need to start his vaccinations as soon as the vet agrees to them too. The 17 week old kitten is going in to be neutered next Monday (she is already vaccinated).

I am wondering if it's something to do with marking his territory as he is the only male but again it's all guesswork. Hopefully if we can settle his tummy too, that will help as well.

Thank you again xx


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## Alex Troy

I have a cat (not one that I own) that comes to the either my front garden right in front of the door, or my back garden just next to the patio, and poops. We have lived here for a long time now so i don't think it is a cat who remembers its old owners. I actually find cats really sweet, but he/she only comes to poop and then leaves. Or comes really late at night. Any advice on what to do?


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## chillminx

@Alex Troy - hi there 

Cats often do not like toiletting close to home, partly for hygiene reasons and also it is their instinct to protect themselves from being tracked by their predators by toiletting away from the vicinity of their home.

In addition cats may defecate in areas around their territory as a form of scent marking which is known as "middening". This is to tell other cats in the neighbourhood that the territory (your garden in this case) is theirs, to stop other cats claiming it.

I understand this is annoying and unpleasant for you. The cat probably belongs to one of the neighbours either side of you. They could encourage their cat to use his own garden for a toilet by providing an outdoor litter tray, or by digging over an empty flower bed for him to use as a latrine. However they would need to scoop an outdoor litter tray or latrine every day without fail, or the cat would soon start looking for somewhere cleaner to use away from the area.

Unfortunately not all cat owners are keen to put in the effort to keep their garden clean enough to encourage their cats to keep using it. And also there will be cats who just do not want to use their own garden for the reasons I have given in my first paragraph above.

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/...s_nofilter/litter_boxes_without_filter/137335

To deter the cat from using your flower beds you can put down Silent Roar cat repellant compost. To the human nose it smells kind of musty but cats seem to hate it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Roa...24417&sr=1-1&keywords=lion+dung+cat+repellent

Defecating right in front of your door is a sign of "middening" (scent marking). The cat is deliberately displaying his poop for other cats in the neighbourhood to see and smell. Cats whether neutered or entire can scent mark in this way, but a cat who is not neutered may be more territorial than a neutered cat.

It would be worth you finding out who the cat belongs to and asking the owner gently if the cat is neutered. If the answer is "not" then perhaps the owner might be willing to oblige by having the cat neutered, as this may possibly reduce the amount of scent marking behaviour in your garden. But do please proceed with caution, as some cats owners can be a bit touchy if they feel criticism is being implied. It is not worth falling out with neighbours. 

You could use a citrus spray on the path and door step (cats hate the smell of citrus). This one is very strong smelling :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spray-Repe...72&sr=1-2&keywords=citrus+spray+cat+repellent

You would need to keep spraying it every day as it will wash away in the rain.


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## Alex Troy

@chillminx Thank you for your swift and sweet reply. Now I understand why its so firmly planted by the doors. I actually find it quite sweet that it is marking my house as its territory. Thank you for the advice. I will most likely try the citrus spray just on my mats, as I don't have any issue with the cat being there or even to a certain degree pooping in my garden. It mainly is the fact that he/she poops directly on the mats, and they can be a nuisance to clean. I will try that out, thank you so much!


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## Rolacolacube

@chillminx

Just thought I'd send a little update. The kittens seem to be doing much better. Far fewer accidents and more solid poops. We've started putting more litter in each tray and we've changed their litter which they seem more fond of. Over the last 3 days, the only accidents have been in the bath which isn't ideal but I'd rather that than in my living room or kitchen.

We've also started giving them chicken more often so they can have time off from wet food. They are still eating their dry.

Thank you for all your advice. Fingers crossed they continue to improve xx


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## chillminx

Thank you for the update @Rolacolacube. I'm pleased to hear things are progressing well with the kittens,and hope they continue to improve.


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## KATZ1355

Alex Troy said:


> I have a cat (not one that I own) that comes to the either my front garden right in front of the door, or my back garden just next to the patio, and poops. We have lived here for a long time now so i don't think it is a cat who remembers its old owners. I actually find cats really sweet, but he/she only comes to poop and then leaves. Or comes really late at night. Any advice on what to do?


Adopt it - it obviously likes your place and if you do, he/she will not poop in your garden, but go elsewhere x


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## KATZ1355

chillminx said:


> @Rolacolacube, it sounds like you have your hands full with the little fellow at present.
> 
> The fact he has loose stools or diarrhoea is very much going to affect whether he soils or uses the litter trays. Any kind of abnormality in the workings of a cat's bladder or bowels is likely to be a cause of them avoiding the tray. Partly it is because they start to associate the litter tray with pain or discomfort, and partly it is an instinctive need to defecate away from the usual toiletting area for hygiene reasons, i.e. so they do not reinfect themselves.
> 
> Has the kitten been wormed since you got him?
> 
> I think you would do best to tackle this as possibly being a dietary issue, so I would start by feeding the little guy plain cooked chicken and cooking juices, nothing else (except water) until his stools firm up. If he won't eat chicken you can substitute poached white fish.
> 
> Drumsticks are tastier than breast meat, and you can poach, boil it, or roast in a pan in the oven with about 1.5 inches of water and covered with baking foil. Cook for 1 hour at gas mark 5. Serve off the bone. The juices should be kept and refrigerated over night then the fat skimmed off the top. You'll be left with a nice jelly you can reheat a little at a time to add to the cooked chicken.
> 
> If the stools don't firm up on the chicken diet then I would be looking at collecting a 3 day pooled sample of his stools for testing for parasites or bowel infection. Your vet can arrange for the samples to be sent to the lab, or you can contact Pinmoore Animal Lab Testing Service yourself direct if you wish.
> 
> http://www.palsvetlab.co.uk/
> 
> If his stools firm up you can gradually transfer him back to cat food, but I would avoid all dry food as it so often can be the cause or exacerbation of diarrhoea.
> 
> Once the stools are firm if he poos on the floor you can pick the stools up and place them in the nearest litter tray and leave them for a while. It would be good if he sees you doing that, but I wouldn't make a big thing out of it or tell him off as it could make him anxious. The aim with a kitten of his age should be a maximum of two poops a day, which are firm and formed but not hard, and they should leave no residue when picked up off the floor.
> 
> For the moment I would put some puppy training pads next to the litter trays and in spots where he has been soiling as he may be more inclined to use those than the trays at present.. They are not a permanent solution but a temporary one and easier to clean up than the floor. If he starts to use the puppy pads you could try putting a clean one in an empty litter tray and see if he will use that.
> 
> Please let us know how things go.


Sorry for getting off the subject slightly - but you seem to be well informed re cats problems - can you suggest how I get rid of cat pee smell on my carpet?


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## Rolacolacube

KATZ1355 said:


> Sorry for getting off the subject slightly - but you seem to be well informed re cats problems - can you suggest how I get rid of cat pee smell on my carpet?


I know you were talking to @chillminx but just wanted to say bicarbonate of soda works wonders for cat pee smell on carpets. Worked a treat for us xx


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## chillminx

KATZ1355 said:


> Sorry for getting off the subject slightly - but you seem to be well informed re cats problems - can you suggest how I get rid of cat pee smell on my carpet?


I have tried various methods over the years and the most effective one for me is using a powdered laundry product called Bio Tex Stain Remover, which you make up into a solution. You can buy it from supermarkets, or online.

The thing about urine soiled carpets is you need to pull the stained area of the carpet back, and get underneath it. The underlay is likely to be stained and it can be hard to get rid of the smell from underlay, much harder than getting the smell out of carpet. Try giving the underlay a good dowsing with Bio Tex then pat off excess moisture with old towels. If the underlay still smells you may need to cut out the soiled part and replace it, even if you use several layers of newspapers for the time being.

Scrub the floor underneath and dry it. Then clean the carpet with Bio Tex and pat off excess moisture. Leave the damp carpet and underlay pulled back until dry. This may take several days.


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## KATZ1355

chillminx said:


> I have tried various methods over the years and the most effective one for me is using a powdered laundry product called Bio Tex Stain Remover, which you make up into a solution. You can buy it from supermarkets, or online.
> 
> The thing about urine soiled carpets is you need to pull the stained area of the carpet back, and get underneath it. The underlay is likely to be stained and it can be hard to get rid of the smell from underlay, much harder than getting the smell out of carpet. Try giving the underlay a good dowsing with Bio Tex then pat off excess moisture with old towels. If the underlay still smells you may need to cut out the soiled part and replace it, even if you use several layers of newspapers for the time being.
> 
> Scrub the floor underneath and dry it. Then clean the carpet with Bio Tex and pat off excess moisture. Leave the damp carpet and underlay pulled back until dry. This may take several days.


Thank you so much for that x


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## KATZ1355

Rolacolacube said:


> I know you were talking to @chillminx but just wanted to say bicarbonate of soda works wonders for cat pee smell on carpets. Worked a treat for us xx


Thanks too dear x


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## CHF

My cat Missy is thirteen years old, for four mornings now I have found poo on first, the hall carpet and this morning, on my bedroom carpet. We have been 'flat-mates' since I given her as a gift when I was seventy and she was eight weeks old. The best gift I have ever received. I have washed the carpets as advised in the thread and this morning ordered another litter tray. She wees as usual in her original tray, I use Bio-Catolet Recycled Paper Pellet Non Clumping litter. I hope this is not too daft a question but is there a better litter which might encourage her to use a tray again please.


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## chillminx

At 13 years old Missy is entering her senior years and it is a good idea to have her health checked at the vet, if you have not done so recently, just to rule out any chronic health issues that may be making her feel below par and avoiding the tray. Most common chronic diseases of older cats such as high BP, Diabetes Type 2, Kidney Disease and Hyperthyroidism can be well managed with medicines.

It could be that she she has some arthritis and is finding it awkward or painful to squat in the tray to poo on the uneven paper litter. Peeing is done in more of a sitting position so is easier.

If the deposits on the floor are hard and very dry looking, it is possible she is a bit constipated, finding it uncomfortable to empty her bowel and it is causing her to avoid the tray. Older cats are often more sedentary and this can lead to less efficient bowel function. Do not feed her any dry food, only wet food and add a little water to it. She may need more fibre in her diet too, but I'd try the wet food diet and extra fluids first.

By all means provide another tray, I always provide several extra trays for my cats as they get older, though they go outdoors. Make the trays extra large ones so there is plenty of room for manoeuvre in there for her. .

Non-clumping litter is smelly unless you empty the lot out and wash the trays every day. Your cat may have become more particular about having a clean smelling tray now she is older. It happens sometimes. I would use your old type litter in one tray for now, and introduce a new litter in another tray to see if she likes it. Do not remove the old litter for good until you are sure she has taken to the new type of litter.

Cats often prefer litter which is sand-like, one of the most efficient and well-liked is Cats Best Oko Plus. It is clumping, more expensive than Bio_catolet to buy but much more economical to use. Sold by [email protected] and on line stores such as Zooplus and Zoofast. You may need to add a scoop of the used Bio-catolet to the tray of new litter, to attract her to it.

With Cats Best Oko you need only scoop the clumps and the solids every day and top up with new litter. I only empty the whole trays out and replace with new litter every 3 weeks or so. Some people only do a full change every couple of months.


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## CHF

Thank you so much chillminx. I will try the Cats Best Oko Plus. I think you are correct saying she may have arthritis. She tends to limp with her left front leg when she first gets to her feet, I have examined her but can see nothing and she doesn't object to being examined. I will book an appointment with the vet.

Her poo is not hard and not very smelly, in fact I thought the first morning it might be a hair ball - she's black. 

Last night I left her cat flap unlocked in the hope she'd go out but no such luck!


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## chillminx

I think she may be of an age now where she feels safer pooing indoors at night. Cats feel very vulnerable to attack (from predators or other cats) when they are at their toilet.

If she does have a bit or arthritis I would not put the Oko Plus litter too deep in the new tray, though plenty to cover the bottom of the tray. She may find it easier to balance when she squats if the litter is not shifting about underneath her,


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## CHF

Yes, I usually always lock her in at night, for her safety, plus the safety of the birds. The last time I _forgot_ to lock her cat-flap, I got up to find a dead wren on my carpet.. Last night was an act of desperation........

Again, many thanks. I shall update this in a while.


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## MrsBearBryllsMummy

woke up this morning..and my cat done a big wee on a magazine i accidentally left down by his litter tray. also there was some weird fibre looking poo on the edge of the sofa and on the floor. 

when my partner was about to cook he found some poo and wee under the sink! my poor boy is 5 months old and has been litter trained since 4weeks,so definately knows there is something wrong but dont know what.


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## buffie

MrsBearBryllsMummy said:


> woke up this morning..and my cat done a big wee on a magazine i accidentally left down by his litter tray. also there was some weird fibre looking poo on the edge of the sofa and on the floor.
> 
> when my partner was about to cook he found some poo and wee under the sink! my poor boy is 5 months old and has been litter trained since 4weeks,so definately knows there is something wrong but dont know what.


Have you spoken to your vet for advice,to be on be safe side I would book an appointment to have him seen .


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## chillminx

Hi there, 

'weird fibre looking poo' could be because there was a lot of fur in it. With the recent warm weather he has probably been moulting again and thus swallowing more fur. Do you groom him every day? Even short haired cats need help with this when they are moulting. A Zoom Groom brush and / or a comb are best for short haired cats.

He may be a bit constipated at present. Do you feed him a wet food diet? He is better off with that than dry food especially in the warm weather when he needs extra fluids to keep himself properly hydrated. I would add a couple of teaspoonfuls of water to his wet food. It will also benefit his bladder to have these extra fluids.

You could also give him some Beaphar hairball paste which will help him pass all the fur he was been swallowing. Most cats love the taste and will lick it off your finger.  Or you can add it to his food.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-Ha...485008&sr=1-2&keywords=beaphar+hairball+paste

Provide your kitty with 2 trays, as he may now prefer one tray to pee in and one to poo in. Please note the 2 trays are not always designated for the same purpose every day, but he
still needs two trays, so he has the choice to pee and poo separately as cats do when toiletting outdoors.. Locate the trays in different parts of the house, not next to each other.

EDIT - cross-posted with Buffie. I agree if you are worried then have kitty seen by the vet.


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## CHF

I am glad to say that since changing Missy's litter to Cats Best Oko Plus as chillminx recommended, Missy has gone back to using her tray. I bought the new litter on Thursday and she has used her tray ever since. 
chillminx, thank you so much for your advice, I had already changed her paper based litter for a different brand of paper based litter but to no avail. I will stick with Cats Best Oko Plus from now on. It may be a little more expensive but it is worth it's weight in gold in less worry and my old arthritic knees!


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## chillminx

Excellent news @CHF!  Thank you for updating us.


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## charli

Been having trouble with my 7 month old cat pooing on the hall floor, and peeing on our bed (with us in it... which was nice of him!). He's only just started doing this everyday, but has peed in inappropriate places in the past (I always put it down to 'accidents' because he was young, or it was a room he'd just been introduced to, or having met a new visitor or something). I've got two cats (brothers from the same litter), three litter trays (I put one in the corner in the hall he keeps pooing in... he just poos next to it). Same litter they've known their entire lives, but I will try changing it to see if he prefers something else (but there's no litter on the tiled hall floor he seems to like). I would assume it's stress related, they only go outside with me at weekends and have never met another cat up close so don't think it is coming from outside. The brothers seem to happily eat and sleep together, but I'll try feeding them separately (they have separate bowls but in the same area as they don't understand the separate bowls thing anyway and steal from each other). Vet visit booked for next week. No visitors of late, no new furniture, no other pets or children or anything here. Any other ideas? Peeing on us in bed as slept was a bit much- so they're now back to not being allowed in the bedroom! Cat flap has also been ordered but I wouldn't like to let them out at will quite yet, they're a bit young and daft.

Thankfully I have tiled floors!

Also, editted to add- both cats neutered at 5 months old!


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## chillminx

@charli : if he's house soiling with pee every day I would get him checked by the vet for a urinary tract infection (UTI) if you haven't done so recently. If he doesn't have a UTI he could have feline cystitis which can't be tested for. Cystitis can be due e.g. to stress, or perhaps crystals in the bladder.

When he soils with poo, what are his stools like? Are they formed, firm, and not sticky? If they are either soft, or very hard and dry then it could be the cause of him avoiding the tray, as cats do that sometimes when their poo is not normal. Maybe because they associate the tray with discomfort.

Does he use the trays normally at all, for either peeing or pooing?

He may get on with his brother OK but even so there could be issues about sharing resources, i.e. he might be feeling insecure, if he feels the resources he uses are not his own. (rescources are food, water, litter trays, cat beds, cat trees, scratching posts and pads, human attention.)

Although they both take food from each other's bowls it doesn't mean they are content with it. It could be a source of unease for either one of them. In over 45 years of living with cats I've never had a cat who was happy to share his/her food bowl with one of the other cats and that includes sharing with siblings they have grown up with. So I think it is a good idea to do as you plan and feed them in separate areas. At least 10 feet apart, either in the same room at different heights if possible, or in different rooms.

Also maybe try adding more high up places for them to sit, more cat scratchers (pads are popular) and several water bowls spread around the house.

Do you play with them separately? Does the less confident one (the soiler) get the same chances to play with you as his brother does?

You have 3 litter trays, but I wonder if the soiler is being subtly blocked by his brother from using them. Or perhaps he won't use them if his brother has already used them. Can you try putting down some extra trays for the moment to see if it helps? Spread them out, don't group them together, a mix of open trays and covered. If covered, remove the door flaps, as many cats hate to be enclosed when they toilet.

Which cat litter are you providing? Sometimes as they grow up their preference changes. I would use a clumping litter that's like sand, easy to dig in, and easy to scoop. Cats Best Oko Plus is good quality, absorbs odours well, and most cats like it. It is not cheap to buy but is economical in use. Scoop the poo as soon as deposited and scoop the clumps of wee at least twice a day.

Any cat with a bladder issue is better off on a wet food diet, no dry at all. A wet food diet, with a little water added, increases fluid intake, and gives a higher volume of urine that is more dilute. This encourages the cat to pee more often, which flushes out the bladder of any lurking nasties (bacteria or 'sludge').

I would also consider maybe adding a supplement to his food, either cystease or cystaid, in case it is a physical problem with his bladder.

I wouldn't let them go out until they are a bit older and wiser than they are at 7 months. I always keep my kittens in until they are at least a year old, and it has worked well.

Please let us know how things go.


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## charli

Hi chillminx, thanks for your comments

I use wood pellet litter (I don't have a 'proper' sieve litter tray, but do use a separate plastic garden sieve to separate clean from dirty litter- done on a daily basis with a full clean once a week, more often if needed). Have been and picked up fullers earth and catsan today, so we'll see if he prefers either of those (currently they've scattered catsan around the room and tried to eat it). I've changed to two litter trays with hood and one without, will pick up another few later. None of the hoods have doors on.

They eat about 99% wet food (alternate between raw and butchers classic), very little dry (which is applaws- used more as treats than food). 

The 'soiler' has pooed on the hall floor every day for the past week (though not today), but has only peed inappropriately twice in the past fortnight- so I don't suspect cystitus (though we're off to the vets next week anyway just to check). Poo normal- not sticky, proper form and appropriate colour. He does use the tray normally when he wants to.

We've switched to food in two separate rooms (trying to get one cat in each room with the food bowl is interesting). He's been outside with me all day, so getting lots of attention (the bolder non-soiling cat doesn't like outside very much, he's been sat inside with my Partner all day). They get played with both together and apart, but I'll make sure the apart time is equal for both of them.

I know it is his way of telling us he isn't happy with something, but trying to work out what it is is difficult!


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## charli

Not doing too well so far... he has just pooed in new places, none of which are a litter tray, regardless of positioning of litter tray or litter type. Pooing on his food mat was further than I thought he would go. They both don't seem to like the new batch of raw food (exactly the same brand and flavours as the last lot- MVM dinners range), so they're eating just butchers classic. Possibly this has caused him to have very soft stools, but we're off to the vets tomorrow anyway. He uses the litter tray to pee- doesn't seem to have a preference of litter though as he's used all three of the litter trays.


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## JocelynHL

Hello, this is my first post. In fact I joined the forum specifically for this very moment!

We bought home two kittens from the RSPCA last weekend (10 days ago) and we absolutely adore them, there are truly amazing. They've been hand-reared from birth so are affectionate, sociable, playful and brave. They're now 11.5 weeks old and prior to us bringing them home from the rescue centre they were litter trained with no problems. When we first brought them home they had a few accidents over the first couple of days but for about 6 days now have not had a single accident during the day. We no longer have to put them in the litter tray intermittently throughout the day; they take themselves there when they need to go and that's that.

However...

Every morning they seem to poo over everything we know and love. They literally refuse to use the trays in the morning. We have woken up early to put them in the tray, but they just climb out and go next to it. This morning one of them was on the brink of pooing on my parents' bed, so my mum lifted him to take him to the tray and he pooed en route there! The litter trays are clean prior to us encouraging them to use them, so it's not because they are dirtied overnight. There is just something about the mornings where they seem to forget all their daytime behaviour and refuse to go where they're meant to!

For further information, we have 2 litter trays, both are on separate floors of the house and neither are by any food or areas where they tend to sleep. They have access to both litter trays overnight. During the days the both use both litter trays, usually dependent on whether they are playing upstairs or downstairs at the time they need to go, so it's not like either of them has an aversion to either tray.

Anyone know why they might be doing this, or what we can do to amend this behaviour?

Photos of the culprits, Hugo and Timmy...


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## chillminx

Hi @JocelynHL and welcome. 

Your kittens are very gorgeous! I love tabbies! 

Is the house soiling with poo limited to the mornings? i.e do they use the litter trays for poo (as well as pee) at other times of day?

Most kittens poo twice in 24 hours, are yours pooing more than that, or less?

What consistency is their poo? Normal would be firm, and formed into little segments, not sticky when you pick it up off the floor, is it like that? Or is it soft or runny? Or hard and dry?

If stools are not normal consistency it can cause cats/kittens to avoid the tray because they asscociate the tray with discomfort. If their stools are not normal as described above then it is a good idea to review their diet to start with. If they are on any dry food take them off it, just feed wet food. A kitten's digestion cannot always cope with dry food.

Were the kittens wormed when they were at the Shelter? They may need worming again, if you have not treated them since you got them. Worms can cause abdominal discomfort which might cause litter tray avoidance.

Are you sure it is both kittens who are soiling? That would be fairly unusual but not unheard of, and cats/kittens are renowned for copying each other's behaviour.

It may be something as simple as providing a couple of extra open trays (one upstairs, one down) until they are older. But my instinct tells me it is probably more complicated than that.

I think the best thing is to settle the kittens together in one room every night, if possible a room with an easy to clean floor, but not a bathroom, (unless the bathroom is very big!). Stand the trays on puppy training pads if it is a carpeted room.

Give them 2 litter trays in their night room, their water bowls, cosy igloo beds, scratch posts etc, and a tasty wet supper at bedtime. If possible put the beds off the floor as cats prefer that. Make the room warm and cosy for them and then develop a bedtime routine for them where you sit with them quietly in their room with the door closed whilst they eat supper, groom themselves and settle for sleep.Then you quietly leave the room. You'll only need to continue this routine for a week or so until they are used to it and don't mind being shut in.

Then leave them in their room in the mornings until they have done their poo. (which is usually first thing I gather?) If they poo away from their trays pick up the poo, place in the trays, and leave it there for a short while. Do not comment to the kittens at all, leave them to observe what you've done with their poo.

The idea is the kittens will feel more secure being contained in their own room at night and if it is a case of them being 'caught short' sometimes at present with needing to poo, then it won't be a problem if the trays are within their easy reach in their bedroom.

Once they are contained in their own room every night, if they consistently soil with poo, then you need to review the type of litter you're providing and the type of trays. Cats are logical creatures and there may be a reason we can't guess at, why they don't mind using the trays for peeing but find them unacceptable for poo.

Cats feel vulnerable when they are at toilet and especially vulnerable during defecation, so they may dislike covered trays for pooing in. If you have covered trays take the lids off. (Always remove the door flaps permanently off covered trays anyway - many cats hate door flaps on litter trays.)

If you are using the same kind of litter most Rescues use, it will be wood pellets, because WP litter is very cheap and Rescues can afford it. Wood pellet litter is not liked by all cats.

It is best to use a litter that is near to sand in consistency. Clumping litters are easier to keep clean but you should not use a clumping CLAY litter for kittens in case they swallow some from licking their paws. The clay swells in the gut and can cause a serious obstruction. (Non clumping clay litters are very smelly after being used a couple of times). So I would go for Cats Best Oko Plus, which is well liked by most cats and is very effective at clumping and absorbing odours. It is not cheap but is very economical to use, as a bag lasts ages.

When you make the change, change just one tray at first and leave the other trays with the current type of litter. If they like the new type of litter you can change all the trays over to that.

As well as the night time routine I'd still also put out some extra trays in the daytime for the time being, whilst they are still young and settling in at your home. I had 5 litter trays around the house for my two girls when they were kittens, and they all got used. Nowadays I have 4 trays for them, and they all get used.

Please let us know how things go.


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## charli

Still haven't managed to solve this  Omar still likes to poo on the hall floor everyday. We've now got 5 litter trays with 3 kinds of litter, they're fed in separate rooms (and have finally got the message about whose bowl belongs to whom). I've got extra scratch posts, including a really tall one that only Omar can get up- so he's got his own hidey place and bed that his brother can't access. We've been to the vets and they think the pair of them are very healthy. He hasn't peed anywhere inappropriate of late, just poos on the hall floor- right next to one of the new litter trays.

Any other ideas?


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## chillminx

Hi @charli, I'm pleased to hear there's been progress inasmuch as he is no longer soiling with urine. 

But sorry to hear the soiling with poo continues.  I know it must be frustrating for you.

If he is on just on Butchers at present has this caused any change in the consistency of his stools? Some cats do get a loose or soft stool with Butchers. His stool needs to be firm and formed, or might cause avoidance of the tray. Can you try some dietary changes to see if it helps? e.g. avoid beef to see if helps. (there is a lot of beef in Butchers).

The other thing is that it really is worth experimenting with cat litter. I understand you have 3 different types of litter, but he still may not be comfortable using any of them for pooing in. When there are these kind of problems it is best to go for a litter that is fine rather like sand in consistency, and make sure it is a clumping litter. I would avoid cheap litters like Catsan as they are dusty and get smelly after a few times of use (even the clumping type does). I'd also avoid wood pellets. I would try him with Cats Best Oko Plus, or Worlds Best. They are a bit more expensive to buy, but very economical in use.

The most crucial thing is most cats like those 2 litters and they are easy to get hold of at [email protected] and other pet stores. Or buy in bulk more cheaply on line (Zooplus or Zoofast). I have lost count of the number of times that simply switching the litter to Cats Best or Worlds Best has solved a chronic soiling problem. Maybe it won't be the answer this time, but it just might be.


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## charli

I've ordered some Cats Best Oko Plus so that should arrive in a day or two.

They're fed raw food (MVM dinners or nutriment) twice a day, and usually one meal of canned food (butchers or granatapet). They're currently being really picky as to what flavours they will eat (neither of them will touch the MVM raw beef, for example), but the pork and lamb are currently on the menu. And I shouldn't bother with nutriment salmon as they won't touch it, but the chicken flavour is fine (yet they won't eat the MVM chicken one?). Until recently they would eat anything you put infront of them, but have decided to be more discerning in the past few weeks.

Treats are applaws chicken dry food, of which they do get some every day (but some being a few pieces each). Stools are properly formed and not sticky or anything.

Thanks!


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## charli

The Oko plus arrived today! As I was rejoicing that Omar hadn't pooed on the hall floor for two whole days... he peed on the bed again. It can't be that he can smell anything on the bed as it is a different mattress, new duvet and new bedding! I'd prefer he'd soil the easy to clean tiled floor than my bed!

He's now having a good dig in the new cat litter. With the delivery came new cat beds and scratch posts, so hoping to eliminate competition for resources- there's now 3 scratch posts, 4 beds, 2 feeding places, 6 water bowls and 5 litter trays! I'm glad the house is a fair size!


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## chillminx

It sounds promising that he is having a good dig in the new cat litter!  Sorry about your bed though!  

Pleased to hear there are now more resources for the cats - hopefully that will mean less competition. 

Fingers crossed that the soiling stops.


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## charli

Well there's now been no pooing on the floor for 5 days, or peeing anywhere untoward other than the bed incident.... *fingers crossed*

Neither cat will have anything to do with the two new beds, but are very pleased with their new cardboard boxes


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## Unfinishedtea

Hi. Thanks for the post, there's a couple of things in there for me to try still but I'm at a bit of a loss because my cat is so inconsistent. We got her (Socks) and her sister (Sandals) over a year ago as very happy, very purr-y kittens and they settled right in, used their litter trays, everything was lovely. Several months ago, however, Socks started doing the occasional wee out of her tray. And it got worse. I cleaned their trays more, gradually changed litters, had them spayed (that was always the plan but my job was cut at the beginning of the year which delayed things a bit), and let them outside (both still come in to wee and poo though). Between the two of them they have 4 litter trays, 2 upstairs and 2 downstairs. 3 are in large, low sided storage boxes, one in a 'large' litter tray, and one of the large ones is covered by a big box (so plenty of room inside and doesn't get too smelly). They've also got varying litters in them. And a sprinkling of catnip. And they're cleaned every 1-2 days with warm water and a tiny bit of detergent (so they don't smell funny).

Sandy doesn't care which she uses or what's in it or the state it's in. Socks SOMETIMES uses them. It's roughly clear she likes them very clean so I'm emptying a couple and washing them daily, but then she peed on the sofa twice yesterday, in the same corner. This morning she peed in her (clean) litter tray, then pooped on another sofa. We haven't used our lounge in weeks, all the cushions and blankets are now stowed away and I've covered them in plastic bin bags to try to deter her. I've started feeding her dreamies when she does use a tray, and haven't told her off for using other areas, although as I rush to clean it up she bolts away. She also semi-regularly uses the area by the back door, next to one of the trays (that she also occasionally uses), which I've now put newspaper on, which she has continued to use.

They have, since we got them, been unable to cover their toiletings (hence the large trays), plucking instead at the edges of their trays. I would then go over and remove the poo and Socks especially would run off (maybe I should have left her (she would try for ages) or covered it for her first?). We expanded the trays, boxed them in, deep-filled them, all to no avail.

The rest of the time Socks is very cuddly and purry, loves to snuggle with her sister and the dog (if Scout will let her), or on laps, her behaviour seems to match that of happy and calm. There's water in every room and several beds and food upstairs and downstairs, all of which she uses. There have been no big or small changes in our house in months. I have often thought of taking her to a vet (again, money is very short/non existent at the moment) but then she goes back to using her trays. She has been seen by vets, getting her vaccination and the spay, and they didn't see any cause for concern (I know, I know it's not always visible).

I've read loads and loads online and am yet to see anything about inconsistent house soiling. Is it just luck? What am I missing? I don't know how to make her happy. I've never had a cat do this before (I grew up with 4, 2 with each parent, my sisters both have one and two of my friends have 2, and before these two we had a feral rescue).

Sorry for the long post, this has been driving me to tears.


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## chillminx

Hi @Unfinishedtea and welcome. 

I am sorry you are having this frustrating problem with Socks. House soiling issues can sometimes need quite a bit of detective work as well as trying various solutions to resolve them.

First I would say make the litter trays smell as much like a toilet as possible for Socks. So do not put catnip in it, as cats do not pee on cat nip, they roll in it ecstatically.

Also do not use a strong smelling detergent when washing them. Hot water and a little bit of washing up liquid is fine for most of the time. If there has been diarrhoea in a tray then after emptying it put in a bleach solution for 10 minutes before rinsing well. (cats are attracted to the smell of bleach in their toilet).

Use unscented cat litter, and maybe add "Cat Attract" to a couple of the trays. Cat Attract can be bought from pet stores.

Locate the trays in quiet places where Socks will have privacy to toilet. Don't rush to clean the trays every time they are used for peeing in, as it is better the trays have Socks's scent in them. Clearing poo a.s.a.p. is optional!  Btw, cats often do not bury their poo, as they intend it to be visible as a display of territory ownership to other cats.

Diet wise - feed Socks a wet food diet only, no dry food. This will increase the volume of her urine making it more dilute and will also encourage her to empty her bladder more often thus reducing the risk of cystitis or crystals.


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## chillminx

@Unfinishedtea - a few more thoughts...

Intermittent house soiling, like Socks is doing, is not unusual and IME it's more common than regular every-day soiling.

Soiling with urine can be linked to feline cystitis - the cat is pain when he/she urinates so associates the litter tray with discomfort and avoids it. Peeing on soft surfaces such as beds, sofas, carpets, is common when a cat has cystitis.

As mentioned earlier, feed Socks a wet food diet only, so she has a higher volume of urine and pees more often thus flushing her bladder through. No dry food, and no Dreamies!

I know it is very frustrating for you, but please do keep in mind that Socks is not soiling out of laziness or naughtiness, she is trying to tell you there is something wrong.

Perhaps the litter is not pleasant for her to use if there are times she is not feeling 100%. Cats like to dig a hole for their toilet so provide a litter that is as sand-like as possible, and fill the trays at least 2.5 inches deep. It should be a clumping litter, because non-clumping litters get contaminated after one day's usage so the whole tray stinks and has to be emptied out and cleaned.

A litter like Cats Best Oko Plus is well liked by cats, clumps brilliantly, absorbs odours well and is economical to use. Introduce it by putting it in one tray only at first and see if Socks takes to it. I think she will. 

Scoop the poo as soon as deposited and the pee clumps twice a day. There is no need to empty out the entire trays for a month or more. Just top up with fresh litter every time you remove the clumps.


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## Kabloomybuzz

We've been having some problems with our boy, Schrodi pooing on the sofa. Its always the same spot (where my partner sits) and always in the early mornings, sometimes I've caught him about to do it and put him in his tray (if I'm on an early shift at work) sometimes we wake up to it there. Thing is its not every day, its twice a week at most, we , but at first we thought it was because we tried to introduce a new tray (left one of the old ones) as thats when it started but we've changed back now (to be fair it was a bit small) He'll use his trays fine all the rest of the time and none of his other behaviours point to a problem, we're trying to figure it out.

We're using wood pellet litter that they've been using since they were kittens, that hasn't changed.


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## chillminx

Hi @Kabloomybuzz, as cats grow up they may not be as tolerant of a cat litter they have accepted as kittens. The best type of litter for cats is a clumping one that is as much like sand as possible, so the cat can dig a nice hole for their poo and bury it (if they wish to bury it).

All the Shelters use wood pellet because it's very cheap, but the fact is cats in Shelters often poo and pee away from the trays for various reasons, one of which may be due to the litter.

To use the wood pellet litter it needs to be used with the correct sieve tray. Without the special trays wood pellet litter becomes contaminated and smelly quickly and the whole tray needs emptying out and cleaning every day (as they do in Shelters). To empty it all out and clean the trays every day is time consuming for a busy owner, wasteful and may work out more expensive in the long term than a litter that is economical to use.

These are the correct trays to use with wood pellet:

https://www.brit-pet.com

However before shelling out on several sieve trays my suggestion would be to try Schrodi with a good quality clumping litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus (which most cats like), which is fine grit, clumps well and absorbs odours well. Although more expensive to buy than wood pellet it is more economical to use. Apart from daily top ups of fresh litter after scooping the clumps people often do not change the entire contents of the tray for a month or more.

When you introduce the new litter put it in one tray at first to see how Schrodi likes it. (Do not mix with wood pellet litter). If you find he has pooed on the sofa put the poo in the new tray and leave it there for half an hour. Don't show it to Schrodi or he will think you are telling him off. You can lightly cover the poo with litter, he will still be able to smell it, but you won't .

If your litter trays are covered ones, provide an open tray with the new litter. Always remove the door flaps from all covered trays, as cats don't like to toilet in a completely enclosed space, especially when pooing as they are more vulnerable then. Many covered trays are not tall enough for an adult cat to squat in comfortably to poo anyway.

Making the litter and the trays more attractive to Schrodi may resolve the problem. It's always a matter of trying to work out what the cat is trying to tell us.

It may be that the soiling on the sofa is scent marking (known as "middening"). The fact he chooses the same spot every time could be significant for more than one reason. If he is close to your OH he may be scent marking his place on the sofa as a way of marking his resources, as a display to your other cat.
On the other hand he maybe going back to the same spot every time because it has his own scent there. Are you cleaning up with an enzyme based cleaner such as Urine Off, Simple Solution or better still sponge with a solution of Bio Tex stain remover and leave to dry before using the cushion again.

To protect your sofa every night put puppy training pads (or inco bed pads, which are cheaper) on the sofa before bedtime, covered by a washable throw. Or shut your cats out of the living room if that's possible. Hopefully this will be a temporary measure until we have worked out the cause of the problem. Though protecting the sofa at night is a good habit to get into if the cats sleep in the living room. 

I can't say if Schrodi is scent marking because of his need to display his 'ownership' of the resources your OH provides. If he does have a specially close relationship with OH could it be that OH has been busy lately and unable to give Schrodi as much attention or play with him as often as before?
I am just speculating of course, making suggestions for you to think about.


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## Louise Connolly

*Please help...
*
My 10 year old female cat has recently started peeing in the house. Shes always been an outdoor cat, her litter tray removed as soon as she could go outside and we haven't had a problem for ten years. I have read the original post as well as the rest of the internet but it seems we've tried the solutions offered.
- Shes neutered 
- No health problems upon recent visit to the vets
For example today... she had been outside all day and I'd watched her go to the toilet outside earlier on and then finally at 3pm I decided to trust her and let her in as normally shes out until about 6pm (I'm home from uni this weekend). No more than two hours later, I step outside my room (that's where she keeps going) and she has peed there! MY bedroom door was open! It's like shes coming inside and purposely peeing there.. we've removed the smell on many occasions:
- We've lifted the carpets multiple times, used cleaner that breaks down the enzymes, used a UV light, and she is put outside during the day and then again before we go to bed but it seems to be the day/evening- the SHORT periods shes inside that shes inside that she's going! Brand new carpet ruined yet again from pets, spent so much money, carpets, cleaning and uv light stuff - my parents are losing their patience now. Are there any other suggestions, she is going to be kept outside 24/7 from now on if we cannot find a solution


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## chillminx

Hello @Louise Connolly and welcome to the forum.

If you are living in the UK it is far too cold for a 10 yr old cat to be shut outdoors all day at this time of year!  Why does she not have a cat flap so she can come in and go out as she likes?

Nor should she be required at her age to go outdoors for the toilet in all weathers, bless her!

Your cat is not soiling indoors to be difficult or annoying, she is trying to tell you something, namely she doesn't want to go out in the cold or rain for the toilet. The fact she may sometimes choose to go out and toilet is up to her. The point is she must be given the choice at her age.

You need to provide her with 2 litter trays indoors, located in the areas she spends most of her time. e.g. perhaps one upstairs and one downstairs. This really is non-negotiable.

Whilst she is not an old cat yet she is not a youngster anymore and you need to look after her and take note of her needs. She has given you her loyalty and affection for 10 yrs, she deserves your compassion now. You sound like a caring person and I am sure you can see this. 

The trays can be open ones or covered ones but if you use covered ones you MUST remove the door flaps as cats hate to be completely enclosed when they are at toilet.

Provide a litter that clumps well and is like the consistency of sand. Cats Best Oko Plus is very effective, liked by most cats and absorbs odours well. It is a bit dearer than the cheap supermarket litters but more economical in use. The trays will need scooping twice a day and topping up with fresh litter.

I expect having litter trays will stop her soiling the house. But if she has already soiled the carpet you need to clean the carpet thoroughly to get rid of the smell. Either get in professional carpet cleaners or else clean the carpet with an enzyme cleaner such as Bio Tex Stain remover.

Roll back the carpet and clean the underlay as well as scrubbing the floorboards. It is difficult to get rid of the smell from underlay tbh, so you may need to cut out the soiled part of he underlay and replace it. Wool carpets are easy to get the smell out of, but man-made fibre carpets are not. Hopefully your carpets are wool 

If she is soiling right outside your bedroom door then she is coming to you to tell you what the problem is. Probably she is much closer to you than your parents and she trusts you to put things right for her.

Shutting her outdoors all the time would be a very cruel thing to do and I am sure you are far too kind a person to allow such a bad thing to happen to her.

Please let us know how things go once she has the trays. Note that she may need time to get used to them if she has not used a tray for years. Please do not allow anyone to get angry with her if she soils, as all that will do is make her anxious and make the problem worse.

If you are concerned you could restrict her to the kitchen (or any room with a hard floor so easy to clean) when she is in the house, with her litter tray until you are sure she is using it OK and can be allowed access to the rest of the house.

You can buy a product called Cat Attract to add to the litter at first so she gets the idea the tray is her toilet. Once she knows that, she should be fine.


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## Louise Connolly

@chillminx Thank you! I agree 100% it is far too cold, she was practically crying to come inside yesterday. Yeah my dad isn't a horrible man but he just is losing his patience as it is constant now and he's not the most naturally animal-understanding, I have suggested a litter tray but I will insist again as I think that's going to be the best bet now.
And ofc, I'm a firm believer in not getting angry- they don't understand why we are annoyed!

However why we're confused is that she will happily sit outside in the garden (as well as peeing outside too!) and then she will come inside and pee upstairs, then choose to go outside after. I just don't understand why she has started doing this now as it's not spraying it seems like a proper wee!

Guess it's round 457485 cleaning the floorboards and carpet! We will get a litter tray


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## chillminx

Hi again @Louise Connolly - I am very pleased you will be insisting your cat has a litter tray from now on.  Really and truly I would give her two, one upstairs and one downstairs so she is always near a tray indoors. I would put one tray by your bedroom door where she has soiled in the past.

You seem like a very understanding person, and I wonder if you can try and tactfully explain to your dad it is really counterproductive to lose patience with the cat over her behaviour. Cats are very logical and your cat will be behaving as she is for a reason. The reason may not be immediately clear to us as we are not cats. But our cats are members of our families and they give us their loyalty and affection so we owe it to them to try and see things how a cat sees them.

The fact is that cats instinctively feel vulnerable to attack from other cats or predators when they are at their toilet. Your cat may be feeling more vulnerable sometimes outdoors than others. Perhaps there is a new cat around, perhaps there is a cat who is threatening her. As a result she feels safer going indoors to toilet.

Also it could be that now she's approaching her senior years she feels the cold more, and if the weather is cold and damp, or windy, she prefers to toilet indoors in the warmth. It could even be the case that she has some bladder discomfort and associates it with peeing outdoors in the cold. Cats are exceptionally adept at making associations between different things and reaching their own conclusions - it is an integral part of their survival mechanism.

One of my cats, only 7 yrs old, quite often goes out in the cold for 20 minutes, then comes back indoors and pees in the litter tray. Not something he would ever do in the warm weather. But I assume he is doing it for a reason. It's his choice and comfort, and I would not deny him it.

For my own peace of mind I wanted to ask you if you have noticed if your cat is peeing more frequently than usual? Or is she passing only small amounts of urine each time she pees? Either of these could be significant in terms of her health.


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## Louise Connolly

@chillminx I think I've solved it - she has never been a cat to wander far at alll but recently she is staying inside her shed (her little den) which is right by our back door. I put her out this evening and she was petrified to go outside, as soon as I got close to the door she was scrambling not to go outside. She eventually walked out herself but is learly hiding down the side of our house and I could not even tempt her out with chicken.
I also noticed her back end looks like some fur has come out so I can only assume she is threatened by another cat and been in a fight or shes stressed and maybe pulling her fur herself. 
I feel terrible, I've had a stressed dog for weeks as he is terrified of fireworks and now my cat is also terrified of something! I feel so bad for them both


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## chillminx

@Louise Connolly - oh no, your poor cat! How upsetting that she is so scared!  It is very possible as the missing fur is around her back end that she has been attacked by another cat as she was trying to run away. One of my cats had a big chunk of fur torn out of his flank, near his bottom a year ago by another cat. It took ages to grow back. 

It sounds as though she would prefer not to be out at all unless you are with her to protect her. I would let her live as an indoor cat now if she feels safer that way. But she will need those two litter trays I mentioned.

I'm so glad you've been able to identify the cause of her current unhappiness and fear. Well done! I reckon she will be so happy that you understand what her problem is.


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## Ramsha

My new kitten was pooping everywhere but her litter. I am definitely gonna do the litter box test ASAP. I have added an extra litter tray for her, as someone else recommended. Now lets see what happens. Thank you for the helpful tips. God bless.


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## Dutchcloggie

I'm after some advice. We have 2 female cats, Toksvig is 4 and we have had her for a year. Inglenook is 1 and we have had her for 4 months. They don't get along well but generally tolerate each other with the occasional hiss and growl. No outright fighting.
We have 3 litter trays. One in our bedroom which is Inglenook's terrain. One in the spare room which is (was) Toksvig's and one downstairs which is rarely used as it is in the kitchen (which is closed when we are not home) and both cats sometimes go outside for a poo in the neighbour's garden ;-) They have been using the litter just fine with no signs of discomfort or not liking the litter.
Recently, Toksvig has started to pee and poo on the doormat and we know that Inglenook has been using all 3 litter trays. We have the feeling Toksvig is very stressed out by this but how can we solve this? Inglenook seems to have taken "possession" of all the trays. Although we have not seen any actual blocking, I think it might be scent-based. Should we lock Inglenook away? Should we make the spare room accessible to Toksvig only (with one of those special cat flaps) so Inglenook can't use that litter tray? I feel very guilty for having taken on Inglenook as it is clear that Toksvig is now not happy anymore.


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## chillminx

@Dutchcloggie - it is all about ownership of resources with cats. I think you are right - Inglenook has taken over all 3 litter trays and is subtly blocking Toksvig from using any of them. This is Inglenook's way of trying to deprive Toksvig of resources so much that she will leave and go and find herself territory elsewhere.

In my experience the only way to counter this behaviour when it has gone so far is to give the deprived cat a tray of their own which no-one else can use. This will mean, as you say, putting a microchip cat flap on the door of one room and only scanning in Toksvig's chip. Then putting her litter tray in the room out of reach of Inglenook. This works well.

I expect Toksvig would be happier if she had her food dish, water bowl and scratch post in her own room too. It is the best way of giving her back a sense of ownership of the resources. She will still no doubt spend time in other parts of the house but will have her own space to go to if she wants.


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## LeahLoki

Hi. I have posted on this thread before and the issue has kept coming back time after time. I have two almost 2 year old male cats (brothers). They seem extremely happy. They love to play with us and together, they sleep together and groom one another. One of the cats has a problem urinating outside of the litter tray and I have tried EVERYTHING. He's narrowed it down to one spot and he will only ever do it overnight when he is locked in that room. He pees by the door. I have a pet remedy diffuser and the spray. I clean the area every day. There are two trays there for them, plenty of room, toys, clean water. He only does this when he is away from me or my partner. Like overnight or when we are away and have a cat sitter. He goes out regularly throughout the day and in every other aspect of his life he seems happy but not overnight. We are moving home soon and it's getting to the point where I'm even considering rehoming them. Even though that would be the last resort as I love them so much! Does anyone have any other options I could try?


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## chillminx

LeahLoki said:


> Hi. I have posted on this thread before and the issue has kept coming back time after time. I have two almost 2 year old male cats (brothers). They seem extremely happy. They love to play with us and together, they sleep together and groom one another. One of the cats has a problem urinating outside of the litter tray and I have tried EVERYTHING. He's narrowed it down to one spot and he will only ever do it overnight when he is locked in that room. He pees by the door. I have a pet remedy diffuser and the spray. I clean the area every day. There are two trays there for them, plenty of room, toys, clean water. He only does this when he is away from me or my partner. Like overnight or when we are away and have a cat sitter. He goes out regularly throughout the day and in every other aspect of his life he seems happy but not overnight. We are moving home soon and it's getting to the point where I'm even considering rehoming them. Even though that would be the last resort as I love them so much! Does anyone have any other options I could try?


Hi again @LeahLoki, I am sorry to hear you are still having the soiling problem. If your cat only soils overnight when he is shut away from you, or when you are away and he has a cat sitter and especially as the soiling is right by the locked door, then it seems likely to be due to anxiety caused by being separated from you. i,e. he has attachment issues.

Before thinking of rehoming the boys it is really important to resolve the soiling problem. As I'm sure you'll appreciate It wouldn't be easy to find someone willing to take on a cat who is known to soil indoors. But if you are not upfront with a potential adopter as to the true reason why you're rehoming him the new owner will be angry and feel cheated when the cat soils their house. . This could result in your cat being shut out of his home all the time, or even abandoned by the new owner. I have known it happen. I am sure you are much too compassionate a person to want to risk such a bad thing happening to your lovely boy.

Things to try are as follow:

1/ consider allowing him access to your bedroom at night. Being able to be with you may provide him with enough reassurance so he has no need to scent mark.

2/ put a litter tray in the exact spot he soils. He may not use the tray but it is likely to act as a deterrent to him scent marking.

3/ give him a course of Zylkene powder mixed into his food. It is a calming supplement, not a drug.

https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/do...l/stress-and-anxiety-relief/zylkene-(dog-cat)

Or you could try him with Nutracalm, a different calming supplement available from the vet.

http://www.nutravet.co.uk/nutracalm

The main reason for attachment anxiety is the cat has become overly dependent on their special human and feels insecure and scared as soon as apart from them. To comfort themselves they scent mark with urine. One way to combat this anxiety is to encourage the cat to become more independent. In your case this might be achieved by :

1/ you stepping back a bit and your OH taking on a more direct role with the cat, e.g. feeding him, greeting him, playing with him, fussing him. I am not suggesting you ignore the cat, you would still be involved, but your OH would take on a bigger role in your cat's life than at present, so the cat becomes more equally attached to you both. This could have the effect of helping your cat feel more secure because he has two humans he is close too and it will therefore make him less dependent on you.

2/ another way to help your cat gain more independence would be to allow him access to outdoors at night, i.e. to come and go through the cat flap as he pleases. (This is the way I effectively stopped one of my Rescue cats spraying indoors. I live in a safe, quiet area, but even so I only allow him out at night, not my other cats.) Most cats love to go outdoors at night, as it is quiet and they can hear mice more easily. If he is out at night he is less likely to be fretting over missing you, and it may be the only way to stop the soiling. Would it be safe for him to be outdoors at night in your new location when you move?


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## LeahLoki

@chillminx thanks for the advice! I have put an extra tray in the room (that's three now!) and I've moved their eating area to the place he would urinate. He hasn't peed on the floor since! We also let him outside last thing at night before we lock them up bedtime. So far, so good! Fingers crossed he'll stay this happy when we move into our new home next month.


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## chillminx

Excellent news @LeahLoki, this is very encouraging. 

Good luck with the house move.  I hope Loki will adjust well.

It may be worth giving Loki Beaphar Calming Spot on for a week before and a week after the move.


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## Kimberley Howes

We have had a major problem with spraying with our male Bengal . It's been a nightmare we've spend hundreds on cleaning products etc . As the odour is awful . We even considered rehoming him . 

Then we made him some pants to measure and put a sanitary towel in them and he's happy to wear them . He has no restrictions at all with jumping or moving or even going to the toilet . 
It's been the best idea ever. Maybe this is something other would consider for their spraying cats ?


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## chillminx

@Kimberley Howes - Stud pants are used for short periods of time when the stud boy is not working, so he can be allowed into the house and not shut outside in a pen with no companionship. Is your boy entire or neutered?

Surely it must be unhygienic for him to wear the pants all the time, or do you remove them for periods of the day? Otherwise how can he wash himself properly?

I can see how one might in sheer desperation as a last resort turn to the pants, but can I ask if you brought in a pet behaviourist beforehand? The problem with using the pants long term is the underlying behavioural cause of the spraying is not being addressed and treated. If he is an entire Bengal then naturally the cause is hormonal and if you are not using him for breeding purposes it would be kinder to get him neutered, which might resolve most or all of the spraying. .


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## Emwhittaker

This looks like the thread is updated, so I will post here.

I suspect my female cat is middening, in addition to the arthritis we discovered at the last vet visit two weeks ago. 

Ever since our new neighbors moved into the apartment building, she has had pooing problems. These neighbors have a screaming child, and we cannot resolve their noise issue. Other neighbors have called the police about the slapping, screaming and banging on walls. I have moved the literboxes in different rooms, but there is no place safe where she cannot hear this couple bang and slam things.

Because of this, I am unable to retrain her in a liter box with isolation in the bathroom, as others suggested, since she howls and has separation anxiety with closed doors of any kind. The neighbors have threatened to call when my oldest makes noise because he wants play time.

She will still use the box to pee, but she is having some difficulty. We had to cut the box lower for her to get in. There are three boxes, and the liter has never been a problem before. We do notice she is only able to make it to the beginning of the box.

When it is too dirty, she will poo by the box. If both my cats do not like it, they go in the bathtub. We discovered they both hate pine, and my male is not picky on liter.

She goes into the box as she wants to poo, but runs as soon as she tries. I'm really not sure if this is a pain issue only or negative association with the banging and thumping on the walls. The one she goes in has a Feliway diffuser, and the vet refuses medication because she says it will not help the issue.

They do not go outside and she never acted up till the week after said neighbors moved in, so I am suspecting the arthritis acted up more when she started having anxiety.

I can deal with the arthritis, but the middening and occasional urine marking inside blankets and where we are sitting is causing problems with the boyfriend, who is suggesting to rehome her. However, all the no-kill shelters have a 6-12 month waiting list and no one in our area can take her because they have no room.

I'm hoping for some help, since I'd like to keep my cat. I've had her since 4 weeks old and she will be six in May. The male cat is seven, but completely unphased, other than checking up on female. 

They get along for the most part, except when threatened (when noise happens). Other than that, there is no bullying or new behavioral issues between them that I've noticed, and I'm home almost all the time.

She is skittish by nature, but our previous neighbors were quiet and we've lived in our complex for almost two years now.


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## Emwhittaker

A few other details which makes this hard to treat:

Neither cat will eat wet food; only dry. I have spent over $150 trying different wet foods, but they will not touch it at all. They are also not interested in people food, nor any type of cat treats on the market.

We are going to be doing diet restrictions soon because they are overweight, but the vet warned against it till environmental issues are resolved, which I'm not sure will happen ;( We cannot remove the neighbors.

We are aware she is holding her poo, but we are not sure how to help, considering we have tried laying down paper, since she poos on them. We thought of puppy pads, but we are not sure if this will work. 

The girl is a loner and doesn't like playing with toys.

We have arthritis medication, but my ex abused her, so only I can hold her. However, she is now so frightened to get meds because of the noises that she soils herself and whoever is holding her, so the vet said to cease giving her medicine for now.


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## chillminx

Hi @Emwhittaker, this sounds like a difficult situation for you and I do sympathise. It is very stressful indeed having to live with noisy neighbours.

I feel very sorry for your poor femaie cat, she sounds like an unhappy girl, bless her. Not only has she to live with the horrible intrusive noise from your anti-social neighbours but she has to cope with the pain of arthritis!  On top of all that she has a history of abuse from your ex!:Banghead The early experience of being treated cruelly probably damaged her self confiidence to the extent she finds it difficult to trust anyone other than you. However if she is in pain it needs to be properly managed with pain relief or her life won't be worth living.

I agree with your conclusions the female's middening is no doubt due almost entirely to the noise the neighbours are making. Cats feel vulnerable when they are at their toilet and need privacy and peace in the area they use and cats have such sensitive hearing. In your cat's case she can't even go outside to get away from the frightening noise.

If I have understood correctly your new neighbours are adjacent to your apartment rather than above you? I appreciate the noise they make can be heard throughout your apartment but
for your cat it is likely to be much more frightening if her litter boxes are located right against a wall where the bangng is coming from. Not only will she hear the noise but will feel the vibrations from the banging.

So I would start by moving her litter boxes to positions as far away as possible from the party wall with your neigbour. I am not promising it will resolve the problem completely but it may help your cat relax a bit.

Also, provide your cat with open litter boxes as she may feel safer if she can see out all the way around her when toiletting. For the moment put some puppy training pads next to the litter box too as this may help give her confidence to trust the area as safe.

There is also a definite possibilty if your cat is in pain from the arthritis that she will be finding it difficult and painful to get in and out of the tray. So I recommend you providing extra large open trays with low sides and using a fine granule layer litter that is easy for her stand on. Put a shallow layer in the trays (do not expect her to bury her poo as she has arthritis) so she finds it easier to keep her balance. For now I would also provide one open tray with puppy training pads in it in case she finds that easier to use.

Note: some people have had success buying a cheap plastic tea tray to use for a litter tray when the cat has mobility issues and putting puppy training pads in it, as the sides are low enough for a cat in pain to negotiate.

After reading your post my immediate reaction was that your poor cat really does deserve a quiet home where she can have peace and a better quality of life than she has at the moment. But I appreciate it probably would not be easy to rehome a 5 yr old cat and you would need to be very choosy indeed who adopted her, to avoid any risk of her going out of the frying pan into the fire! 

But I strongly recommend we try and resolve the middening issue before you think of rehoming her, so she has the best possible chance of being adopted. A soiling issue will make it harder to find a good home for her, in spite of the fact it is evident she is soiling partly due to the current noisy environment.

I am concerned that a cat as young as 5 years old has arthritis. 7 years old has been the youngest I have ever heard of, and that was regarded as very unusual as arthritis mostly effects cats in their senior years (over the age of 12).

Has your cat's arthritis been conclusively diagnosed with X Rays? Is she on special dietary supplements?

Cats are excellent at hiding pain (it is part of their survival mechanism not to show weakness) but pain relief for your cat is essential. It is not fair for her to suffer. So I recommend talking to your vet about what options are aviailable e.g. a suitable medicine that can be added to food, or hidden in a Pill Pocket (or similar). If none are suitable then ask about her having regular long acting pain relief injections from the vet.

You may find it useful to read this excellent article from the reputable International Cat Care, giving info about supplements and pain relief.

http://icatcare.org/advice/cat-health/arthritis-and-degenerative-joint-disease-cats

If she is overweight she needs to lose weight so there is less strain on her joints. Dry food is very fattening - it is packed full of calories. It is also very addiictive for cats due to the coating of
a strong flavouring called Animal Digest. There is no nutritonal value in Animal Digest, it is there purely to make the food attractive to cats.

Feeding her wet food wiill ensure she loses weight easily without even trying. It is going to be hard to achieve that with dry food. Wet food will also be healthier for her kidneys and bladder. I would try adding 'toppers' to her wet food to encourage her e.g. grind up some dry food in a clean coffee grinder and sprinkle it over wet food. Or add freeze dried pure chicken treats or beef treats to the top of her wet food.

I am not suggesting you try and starve her into eating wet food - that never works. Cats respond best to persuasion. Start with a very small amount of wet food with the ground dry food on top. Inevitably when she eats the dry food she will get some of the wet food too. It may take a while but you will get there in the end. I have transferred all my rescue cats over the year off dry food diets.

Maybe even consider feeding her a balanced raw meat diet? Or some fresh raw meat chunks as a treat. If she won't eat raw meat try her with some home cooked meat and lots of the cooking juices Home cooked meat fed frequently would need a vit / mineral supplement to make it a balanced meal, but fed a couple times a week it would be OK without.

With regard to your neighbours if you are in a rental property have you complained to the landlord or his agent about the neighbour's noise? If you think the noise is of a child being physically abused have you reported your suspicions to Child Protective Services?

Please let us know how things go. Very happy to help further if I can.


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## Emwhittaker

> If I have understood correctly your new neighbours are adjacent to your apartment rather than above you? I appreciate the noise they make can be heard throughout your apartment but for your cat it is likely to be much more frightening if her litter boxes are located right against a wall where the banging is coming from. Not only will she hear the noise but will feel the vibrations from the banging.


Yes, they are right across from us, but their rooms join with ours, which makes this a large problem. 3 out of 5 rooms are compromised - the bedrooms and bathroom, where one liter box is. The only other rooms in the apartment are the kitchen (which, we cannot put a liter box in there) and the living room. The liter boxes had not been moved for a year, were cleaned by hand every two weeks and scooped out at least one or twice a day, depending on their usage. They seemed happy with the locations until this couple and their young daughter moved into the unit in October.

We learned when my boyfriend's six year old visited that she cannot handle children. So we are aware of that issue. I do not have children, and no one around me ever has, so part of it was she never learned to socalize around kids.

I've moved the liter boxes across every room in this apartment, but to no avail with the pooping. I do have a friend who's cat has arthritis, so I'm aware that could also be an issue. She's been helpful thus far, but the middening got worse this weekend as the fighting escalated with a visitor they had in their home. I woke up to presents inside the blanket. When it first started, it was either directly across from the liter box or right next to it.



> There is also a definite possibility if your cat is in pain from the arthritis that she will be finding it difficult and painful to get in and out of the tray. So I recommend you providing extra large open trays with low sides and using a fine granule layer litter that is easy for her stand on. Put a shallow layer in the trays (do not expect her to bury her poo as she has arthritis) so she finds it easier to keep her balance. For now I would also provide one open tray with puppy training pads in it in case she finds that easier to use.


We have converted one of three boxes for her, and are working on a second. I did read that the liter box might have to be changed completely due to association. I don't like that the box we just bought might also have to go through the transition, as the converted box is the one she hesitates to use. She manages to pee, but will only get so far inside to poo and then she darts, as if burned.

I can certainly look into doing puppy pads for her, but we've had icy weather here in the States and I haven't been able to drive on those roads.

To answer another question, we are going back on Saturday to get her another examination by the veterinarian. She wanted to do some testing and x-rays I believe, but mentioned holding off their dietary changes until the situation is somewhat back to normal .The vet is aware of the situation and also agrees her problems halfway stem from this rowdy couple, but there's nothing I can do about getting them removed without several noise complaints.

My friend's cat had arthritis at one year old, and she is now thirteen. She warned me about some of the behavior issues, but I don't want to rehome my female just because she has medical issues. However, I don't like seeing her unhappy and she's very close to me. She finally warmed up to my boyfriend after a year when this happened, so you can imagine how devastating this must be. Also, he yelled at her repeatedly about pooing in the house, so that didn't help matters. After reading several posts weeks ago, he stopped, but I imagine the damage was done.

Even when my ex did things (and he waited till I was at work, so there was nothing I could do), she never did middening because I had a separate bedroom/bathroom combination. She would use the box in the bathroom and just stay in between the two rooms after a time. This was in a four cat household - the apartment complex made me go to two. But this happened two years ago.



> Cats are excellent at hiding pain (it is part of their survival mechanism not to show weakness) but pain relief for your cat is essential. It is not fair for her to suffer. So I recommend talking to your vet about what options are available e.g. a suitable medicine that can be added to food, or hidden in a Pill Pocket (or similar). If none are suitable then ask about her having regular long acting pain relief injections from the vet.


I am in the process of doing this, and will be asking about injections. As I stated before, she's soiling herself when we give her the oral medication (it's in a stopper and liquid). I am not a believer in making a cat that scared on a daily basis. She had that enough when ex would pull her tail or frighten her to get a laugh.

Right now, she has been stealing the electric blanket when it's on, and that's seemed to help her mobility after resting on it for a time.

In reference to diet: She will not eat meat at all and has been fickle since a kitten, down to the kibble. If there was no kibble, she would voice her displeasure and would start eating electric cords while plugged into the wall. I learned later that the ex would not feed or water my cats, and several times, the bowls would be empty or bone dry. So she started chewing on things to get his attention. Hence, it transferred over to when she has anxiety about not having "her brand" of food.

My other cat has issues too, but his are abuse related and a skin allergy, which he goes to the veterinarian for yearly. He's the one thriving somehow in the apartment.

I have tried cooked plain chicken breast and all types of fish over the years, but she will not eat any of it. She is stubborn about her food, but I can try your idea about wet food and her current kibble.



> With regard to your neighbours if you are in a rental property have you complained to the landlord or his agent about the neighbour's noise? If you think the noise is of a child being physically abused have you reported your suspicions to Child Protective Services?


We have filed a formal complaint with the property manager after calling the police three times last week, due to excessive violence and noise between 12-5 am. However, with it being Christmas week, we don't believe anything will be solved until the New Year, if at all. They need three notifications from the landlord, and other neighbors are also putting in their complaints.

The problem is there's no predictability to the noise. This happens anytime, anywhere. It starts around 6-9 am and will continue well into 3 am in the morning. Some are fits because the child will not sleep, but then she is slapped, screamed at or something is knocked over and thrown. I think they have figured out that we were the ones who called the police because another neighbor talked to apartment management, but they did nothing.

And it was a Saturday night - when property management was NOT available.

We are hoping Child Services gets involved, since we have told the police some of the verbatim we hear through the joined walls, such as abandoning the child, throwing her out and other choice statements. We don't believe she goes to school either and looks to be around six years old. If she's a special needs child, then that's another issue. But everyone in our building deserves to enjoy the space they rent - including my cats, who had no issues before these people moved into the building.

I believe they're on a year lease, and we are due to move in June when ours expires. The problem is coming up with about $1500 to move, and then a termination fee with the lease, since there's no clause to get out for excessive noise.

So, we are looking to move so we can get some sleep and so she has some relief.

I called last week about rehoming and the Humane Society here would take her with the problem, but they have 80 cats before me to consider rehoming. I've spoken to the vet, cat shelters and friends, and now you - and all agree it's an environmental issue out of my control.

If it were just arthritis, I can accept that. Boyfriend would be okay with that, too....even if he grumbles because he's a dog person 

But this situation is horrid all around, and it breaks my heart. On one hand, you have the cat who is not a bad feline. She never had these issues. But then, you have a six to eight year old child to consider, who sounds like she's having a rough go with her parents.


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## Emwhittaker

While I'm at it, I have a weird question, which may be related.

The oldest and youngest cat have always chased each other after finishing in the liter box, like it's some sort of game. The oldest has done this since the day female came home, but this never prevented her from doing her business, since she did it back to him over the years. 

I've never seen cats do this before, but alway thought it was playing, since they scope the party inside the box, wait until they finish inside, and then promptly chase each other to another room. There is no hissing or growling involved, unless he comes up when she is in pain.

My seven year old had a brother that my ex separated him from, and they played everyday. He also did this game with the older male and female only, so I thought nothing of this until seeing some older posts in this thread.

All my cats are fixed and up to date on shots, and have never displayed humping or spraying issues after going to a 2 cat household.

Also, I'd consider letting her be an outdoor cat, but that is dangerous in an apartment complex with speeding cars and unruly children. She's never shown an interest in being outside since we took her home.

She jumped in my car as a 4 week old kitten upon first meeting, and kept going back in after being removed. We found later the mother killed the remaining kittens in the liter, so I guess the female knew something was wrong with mom.

But you are right: I would be choosy over where she is rehomed for the reasons mentioned.


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## chillminx

The chasing behaviour after using the litter box sounds like territorial behaviour from whoever is doing the chasing. The answer is to supply more litter boxes located in other places in the apartment so the cats are less in competition for resources. .

I am shocked to hear your current BF has in the past yelled at your cat for middening!! What on earth did he think that would achieve! :Banghead As you say damage has now been done, and without a doubt your BF's behaviour will have made the poor cat more afraid and anxious than ever. Such a shame.  

My heart aches for her, she has been through so much in her short life. It is astonishing she even manages to trust any human at all any more.


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## Emwhittaker

Well, this was an issue no matter where we lived, and I have three boxes for two cats in different areas.  He has his own box in the bathroom that she does not touch, so the one in the living room was hers. The chasing would happen once in a while, but then the issue would stop for about a month or two on its own without any interference. I didn't know this was a problem then, because everyone I talked to stated they never came across such behavior from cats. Others assumed it was a chasing game, since they acted playful instead of hissing and scratching one another.

As for the liter boxes in the living room, we have their original box and the modified one that's larger (they are on opposite sides of the living room as well, so each cat can have their own box). She doesn't seem to like the open box we modified for her with the arthritis. We literally cut the bottom out on one side, and it is in a place where she can see everywhere. I've moved this box all around the living room, and the only other place I can think of us behind my desk, where the other male cannot wait around to chase her. However, the boxes are too large, (even the small closed off one she prefers to pee in) so I've gotten some puppy pads and a mat to see if she will at least poo in a more secluded area. This is the area furthest away from the noise.

She slinks around the perimeter of the desk anyway, sitting in various positions, and has pooed next to my chair. Hopefully this works a bit better, because she will not go into the bathroom, where there is tiling. It'd be the most ideal place, but they bang along the bathroom wall, so that's not a safe place for her, I think. I'll see what this does tonight. 

In reference to the boyfriend comment: Current boyfriend has never had a cat with medical or behavioral issues, so he thought it was the same as if a dog was misbehaving (which, has its differences, no matter how small). We have discussed the issue, and she is slowly reconnecting. Part of the issue is he ran out of his medication and suffers from depression and PTSD, so it's apparent when the medication is out of his system. When he's medicated, he's fine.

We've researched different pages, went to the vet and he's been more patient since learning it's not vindictive behavior, but part of the problem is he wants a "fix now" kind of deal, and it's like any issue - you have to research and study before you have the full solution. That was the only mistake he's made in reference to her - he's never hit her or anything of that nature. And she's middening near him, which he misunderstood as "I hate you" rather than "I'm telling you something is wrong because Mom hasn't been able to fix the noise". 

She's starting to go back to asking him for attention and water, since I corrected it the only time it occurred (him yelling for her middening). Had there been long lasting occurrences, she certainly wouldn't be headbutting him or trying to talk to him. (She actually meows and talks a lot when she wants something). So I think there is a chance to preserve the carefully forged relationship there. He's been respectable otherwise to her, giving her distance as needed and only touching her when she shows it's okay.

Oh, and not touching her tail helps.  I'm only sorry it took this long, since another male made it difficult. 

I'll probably be putting the food and water bowl somewhere different, though. I never saw this as an issue before, because they shared without chasing each other away. They didn't seem to have anxiety over sharing them, except when the food or water dishes were half full. Again, this stemmed back to the ex, when he did not feed or give them water while I was working 10-12 hours a day. I didn't think I needed to worry at the time, because he had two cats of his own living in my rancher. (A long three bedroom home.) The oldest freaks about food, and she does about water. This is not when another cat is nearby, however.

Still, putting their foot separate wouldn't be a bad idea. I'll see how that works and let you know.


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## Emwhittaker

She did use the puppy pads last night for pooing, and it was in the assigned spot the furthest away from the noise vibrations. 

She covered up with one of them, but used the other to go on. I can live with that.


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## oggers86

We are still not poo or spray free, it's really starting to get to me because it's been going on so long now. I can come up with excuses like oh he's doing it because we have visitors, it's raining, the baby is crying but I know it happens when nobody has set foot in the house for months, the sun is shining, it's lovely and warm and the baby hasn't made a peep. 

This morning there was poo next to the huge litter tray the behaviourist suggested we get which is disheartening. Tomorrow I will be doing as she suggested and putting an open larger tray in place of the covered one. We still need to create a toilet area outside. 

With regards to the spraying I cleaned up the last lot a week ago. It was a large volume so I used urine off and as instructed have been spraying the area with feliway calming spray daily. He was very agitated this morning as it was raining so he didn't want to go out. I had the chance to distract him when he jumped up to the spraying spot but last week I was busy so I couldn't so then he sprayed. 

I don't know how much longer I can do this for, I think we need to maybe reemploy the behaviourist again after March so then we have had 6 months of working with a qualified professional (assuming the insurance will pay) After that I really don't know, if we add a second child my time will be stretched further so I probably can't drop everything as I do now to reassure him. 

I researched the breed, I spoke to numerous breeders and told them that we were planning on having kids and not one told me a Siamese wasn't the right breed because I couldn't devote literally all my time to them, it just isn't physically possible for anyone to attend to any beings needs 24/7, there are times when things have to wait. 

Anyway we will see where we are in a years time. For the time being I'll just have to post my rants and my issues here so I don't lose the plot.


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## Gemz2083

Hiya wondering if anyone can help.

I have a 10 yr old neutered male cat called Charlie.

Recently he's been going toilet outside of his tray. It started last year when he started going toilet in my bath! After some investigation into realised I had put his food dish near his litter tray. I moved it and filled the bath with water to deter him which worked.

Only now he's urinating on my bathroom floor and he's recently started doing it on my carpet. He uses a hooded litter tray, he has for a good few years now. He poops in the tray and I've noticed he does do some urinating in the tray so why still do it outside the tray?

I've not changed his litter.

he still sleeps in my daughters bedroom despite the fact I don't like it because he destroys my carpets. (That's another issue)

the litter tray hasn't moved, it's in the same place it's always been (out of the way of my dog because he eats poop)

I clean the tray and wash it once a week or so but it always gets rinsed properly.

Absolutely nothing has changed in my house. I'm at my Whits end with him. It would break my daughters heart if I got rid of him.

I also took the lid off the tray today in case it was that.


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## chillminx

Hello @Gemz2083 and welcome 

What does your vet say about Charlie's urine soiling? Has Charlie been checked for a UTI or for crystals in his bladder? Such a health problem needs to be ruled out first.

A single cat needs a minimum of two litter trays, one to pee in and one to poo in. (the cat may vary which tray they use for each purpose).

The trays must be set up apart from each other, so there are two separate toiletting areas, preferably in different rooms of the house. OK I understand Charlie has been putting up with only one tray up till recenltly but now he is making it apparent he needs his minimum of two trays.

If he is an indoor cat I would probably give him 3 trays actually. And I'd make them all open trays as cats generally prefer open trays so they can see all around them when they toilet (it's their survival instinct)

As a cat gets older, towards his senior years, he likes a litter that is comfortable to use and easy to balance on when he squats. So provide a fine granule litter such as low dust clumping clay litter (not cheap supermarket stuff which is bad for his lungs) or a plant based granule litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus, Maizey, or Worlds Best.

Fill the trays with 2 inches of litter, so the cat can dig a hole if he wants. Scoop the poos as soon after they are deposited as possible and the clumps of pee several times a day.

If you choose to prevent him weeing in the bath then you must also establish the cause of why he is doing it. Otherwise just putting water in the bath will merely result in him soiling elsewhere as you have already found! Personally I would much rather have my cat pee in the bath, which is very easy to clean and disinfect, rather than soiling my carpets or soft furnishings.

I understand of course you don't want him peeing in the bath forever, but for now while you do your detective work and solve the problem for him, I don't think it is such a bad choice for him to use the bath.

The other thing is his diet - do not feed a cat with a bladder problem any dry food, as it may make it worse, and might even be the cause in the first place. Charlie needs a wet food diet with a litte water added to his wet meals. To further increase his fluid intake give him some home made chicken broth every day. (Cook a big pot of broth using drumsticks and freeze it in ice cube trays, defrost individual cubes each day and serve warm) . My cats love turkey broth too. Large turkey drumsticks are very cheap & good value from Morrison's.

If Charlie's fluid intake is increased he will have a higher volume of urine, it will be more dilute and he will want to pee more often, which is what we want. Less concentrated urine means he will fine more comfortable when he pees and there is less chance of sludge or crystals forming in the bladder.


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## Temporally_Loopy

Hi there, I'm having a similar problem to Gemz, except that mine is with a (now) 17 week old indoor kitten. For the first ten days I had him he was fine with his litter boxes (one upstairs and one down) he took to both and they had a similar non-clumping pellet type litter to that used by the breeder. The litter boxes are both cleaned about three or four times a day, or as soon as I've noticed he's used them and are topped up regularly. Going on what is mentioned on litter packets, I didn't think there would be a problem (with two trays) on not changing the complete litter boxes for 10 days. On New Years Eve Bertie was shut upstairs on his own for an hour or so because we couldn't keep him from jumping onto us whilst we were trying to eat. The following day I realised that, whilst upstairs on his own, although he'd pooed in his tray he had weed in the bath. I thought it might have been because I'd tried to introduce a little Oko clumping litter into the pellets so I changed the litter box completely and refilled it with just the pellets. I also filled the bath with water to stop him which I now realise was a bad idea!

All was okay for about another week and then I found that he'd weed in the shower next to the litter tray (this was more of a nuisance to clean as there was a mat under the litter tray etc. I cleaned out the shower, rinsed it well and used some specialist cleaner (Johnsons clean and safe) and placed a clean mat under the tray which was again refilled totally. At the same time I did the downstairs tray, although this one has a mix of clumping and pellet litter, (touch wood) there has never been a problem with this tray.

Again, I thought all was going well and had gradually introduced small amounts of clumping to the upstairs tray, however yesterday I discovered that he'd again weed in the shower - despite earlier that day weeing and pooing in it (both of which had been removed immediately). 

There are only two factors that I can see: one is that he's decided that the litter should be changed totally every week (which seems excessive for one cat with two trays) and, secondly, the difference yesterday was that he was confined upstairs with me because I had a migraine and couldn't move around for the whole of the afternoon. When I say "confined" he has the run of my bedroom, the landing and the bathroom; had been fed his breakfast and lunch at the usual times, had access to water and dry food and plenty of his toys. This area is his usual night-time area as I do not want him downstairs on his own for any length of time.

Regarding his health he has a high protein wet food (Royal Canin and Nature's Menu) diet and access to Royal Canin dry food, I also add a little extra water to his wet food as he doesn't ever seem to drink from his water bowls. He eats very well, has loads of energy, has no problem in using either tray frequently and without obvious pain, he is also cuddled a lot (at his instigation) and there is no tenderness to his stomach.

I just don't know what's wrong with him (or me). Is he just very particular about his litter? In which case the whole lot will have to be dumped weekly (which is no light weight to go into the dustbin when you add it to what is removed daily!) or is he showing displeasure when something out of the ordinary happens?

Help would be appreciated.

Any advice please.


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## chillminx

Hi @Temporally_Loopy 

With all non clumping litters including wood pellets you do need to empty all trays out every day, wash the trays with hot water and a bit of washing up liquid and then refill with fresh litter. The reason for this is that non clumping litter gets contaminated and smelly (to the cat) after a day's worth of pee and poo. It is impossible to scoop out the deposits without spreading wet bits around and mixing them into the dry bits. So the whole lot ends up dirty.

To reduce the amount you use with pellet litter just put a shallow layer of litter across the bottom of the tray, so you are not throwing away so much every day.

A more effective way to use wood pellets is with the correct "sieve" trays. The tray has two layers to it, a sieve layer on top and a pan underneath. You put a thin layer of fresh litter on the sieve tray and a thin layer underneath in the pin. Solids sit on the sieve ready to be scooped and wee passes straight through the sieve to be absorbed into the litter in the pan. You can shake the wet sawdust through the sieve. The whole sieve tray does need emptying every day and washing, but is more economical using this type of tray and more pleasant for the cat to use.

The sieve trays are not cheap especially if you want the covered type:-

https://www.brit-pet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BP

There is a cheaper copy, called a sifting litter tray made by Purrshire, which may be worth a try. Some people have told me the holes in the sifter are too small for the sawdust to go through easily, other people say it is fine.

http://www.petplanet.co.uk/product.asp?dept_id=5933&pf_id=62184

If you want to be able to shut him upstairs he needs two trays upstairs - one for peeing, one for pooing. Cats often like to use a different tray for each purpose. Place the trays apart from each other, not in the same room, so there are two separate toiletting areas. This is important.

If you want to switch cat litter from pellets to a fine granule clumping litter, do NOT mix the litters. Instead put out one tray with the new type of litter and keep the other trays with the old type of litter. Once kitty decides to use the new tray you can switch a 2nd tray over to the new litter, and once he is using that tray Ok too you can switch the 3rd tray over to the new litter.

Using a good quality clumping litter such as Oko Plus means you will be able to scoop out the soiled bits without contaminating the rest of the trays, and you'll find you only need do a full tray change about once a month. Very different to the wood pellet litter.

Diet - Royal Canin wet and dry foods are not very good quality foods, but Natures Menu is fine. If he is eating more than
about 10 pieces of dry food a day and not drinking any water then he is a risk of low level chronic dehydration, which will have adverse implications for his bladder, kidneys and bowels. Cats are not designed to be good drinkers, they are designed to get their fluids in their food. I would cut back on the dry food considerably and increase the wet food. Cats do not need dry food, it is full of carbs which are fattening.

If you want to feed a little dry food as a treat choose a make that is high protein and low carb. The best of these is Thrive Premium Plus (from [email protected]).

https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/searchterm?searchTerm=thrive+premium+plus

I'd also recommend adding in some different makes of wet food (as well as the Natures Menu i.e.) so all his nutritional needs are covered e.g. Wainwrights Kitten pots (not pouches), Hilife Kitten poultry pouches, from [email protected], or some of the good quality kitten canned foods from Zooplus UK,

e.g. Feringa, Grau, Bozita, Animonda Carny, Animonda Vom Feinsten.


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## Temporally_Loopy

Chillminx, thank you for all the information you've provided it's certainly given me food for thought! 

The wood pellets are the type that turn to sawdust (apparently) and I agree that it is difficult to remove all the dirty dust from the whole pellets which may or may not have begun to disintegrate. I do have a sieve litter tray but not either of the brands you mentioned (it consists of two different trays and a sieve which clip together the idea being that you sieve from one tray to the other) however I think it is supposed to be used with clumping litter rather than pellets. Originally I purchased litter trays to be used with clumping litter before being told I shouldn't use it for kittens until 5 months or so. 

So far, I haven't used the sieve system as it was designed to be used with both parts in operation and a layer of litter in the bottom tray. I just used one tray to a time and used the sieve as a way of getting rid of the dust as much as possible rather than keeping it as something for him to stand on. I've also been putting a deep layer of litter in the tray because he seems to like to dig and dig. I'll definitely try to do what you suggest and put a layer under the sieve to absorb the urine and then the layer on top of the sieve so that any liquids or dust can pass through.

If it doesn't work with the litter tray system I currently have then I'll try the Purrshire one, even if it's just for the period before he changes to clumping litter. Funnily enough Bertie doesn't mind the mix of litters in the downstairs tray which is an Igloo covered tray. 

It hadn't occurred to me that one type of litter could contaminate the other.

I can always try the third litter box option but it will have to be for a while whilst transferring from one litter to another - however they will both have to be in the bathroom as, except for my bedroom, there is nowhere else to put the third upstairs which is why it can only be for a limited time. He hasn't ever had a problem weeing and pooing in the same box (either upstairs or downstairs) apart from the occasions when he's weed in a) the bath and b) the shower which are about 4 occasions out of 4 weeks of weeing and pooing. Now, having had your advice about just how often the pellets need to be replaced, I imagine that this is the problem with the upstairs box (I shouldn't have followed the manufacturers advice). Having a thin layer and replacing daily does sound more sensible! As an update, whilst I was cleaning out his tray this afternoon to replace the litter, I had just (not having your advice) put a thin layer of Oko clumping into the bottom of the tray ready to add some pellets, when Bertie jumped in and immediately weed on the new litter. Can I assume that this means he will like the new litter as he had the choice of the downstairs box as well.

Re. his food, he is getting a mixture of things as I wasn't too sure about the protein content of the Canin Instinctive pouches - this is why they are mixed with Nature's Menu stuff. He hardly eats any of the dried nibbles - probably about 10 a day, if that. I do add extra liquid to his bowls of wet food which he consumes quite happily. Since doing this he now wees about 5 to 6 times a day. I shall certainly look at the other brands you've mentioned as I don't want him to get picky but have all the nutrients he requires. At present he's eating about 3 pouches a day but could probably eat more!

Thank you, again, for your advice.


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## Temporally_Loopy

Thinking about it, on the occasions I came into the room and almost caught him in the act he was miaowing very loudly and insistently about something - perhaps the state of his litter tray and the fact he couldn't use it!


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## chillminx

It's great he has taken to the Oko Plus so quickly!  Most kitties do like it. 

I have always switched my kittens to using Oko Plus at around 16 weeks. If any of them had tried to eat it I would have gone back to non clumping but luckily none of them did. 

He may well manage OK with two trays, one upstairs, one down, when you have switched to the good litter.


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## map26

Hi, this is a great thread. I've just adopted a 6-month-old male kitten (i already have a 7-year-old female cat). The transition was hard as they didn't get along but after 3 months they play a little and tolerate each other. 

The kitten has issues with peeing near the water bowl or in random spots at times. I'm fairly diligent in cleaning the litter at least every 2 days, minimum. 
I have 2 litter trays, one at either end of the apartment. They share the food bowl and water bowl. 

I've tried 2 types of litter for him as the previous owner use the paper based litter where as i have been using the clay type.
I know he uses the litter tray cause i've seen him use it but other times he just wont. 

I'm not sure what to do. He hasn't been desexed as yet as previously it was too soon but i'm planning on doing that in the next month or so. Also he only seems to be doing this when i'm around the home. at least that's when i've noticed it. I'll have to get a black uv light to check on it soon too I think.

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## chillminx

Hi @map26 and welcome 

For 2 indoor cats the minimum number of trays should be 3. The rule of thumb is one tray per cat plus one extra. But as there are problems with the little one soiling the floor I would provide 4 trays, no question about it.

The trays should be located in different spots throughout the apartment, not grouped together as the cats need to see the trays as 4 separate toiletting areas.

I don't know what kind of cat litter you are providing but if it is a good quality clumping litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus you need to scoop the wet clumps twice a day and remove the poo as soon as possible after it has been deposited. It is possible the kitten does not want to use the tray sometimes because it is not clean enough for him. Some cats are fussier than others about cleanliness of the trays.

If you're providing a non-clumping litter then it needs scooping twice a day and the whole tray emptying out, being washed every day and refilling with fresh litter.

The other thing of significance you mention is he is a 6 month old entire male which means it is time to neuter him now, not in the next month or so. He has already reached sexual maturity and the risk is he will shortly, any time now, begin displaying the normal behaviour of an un-neutered male cat, i.e. spraying urine around your home. The urine of an un-neutered tom cat is very smelly because of the hormones. Not only that, but if a cat starts the habit of spraying it may be difficult to get him to stop, *even after he is neutered!*

More cats are given up for rehoming due to spraying and house soiling than for any other reason. This is mostly due to late neutering. How would you feel about your little guy if he was spraying your home every day and making it smell bad? It would probably ruin your enjoyment of your home and it would spoil kitty's life if you had to rehome him. I would not risk that.

My thoughts are that the soiling on the floor could be partly due to the litter trays, but also could be due to him scent marking his territory with urine because he is an entire tom cat. This is why I say it is urgent to get him neutered a.s.a.p.

Any cat or kitten who has a bladder issue should be fed wet food only, no dry food. The reason is that wet food enables him to ingest more fluids with his food as nature intends for the cat. More fluids = a higher volume of urine, and more dilute, which encourages kitty to urinate more often which is what we want as it will keep his bladder flushed through and more comfortable for him. It won't however stop him spraying or scent marking.


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## map26

chillminx said:


> Hi @map26 and welcome
> 
> For 2 indoor cats the minimum number of trays should be 3. The rule of thumb is one tray per cat plus one extra. But as there are problems with the little one soiling the floor I would provide 4 trays, no question about it.
> 
> The trays should be located in different spots throughout the apartment, not grouped together as the cats need to see the trays as 4 separate toiletting areas.
> 
> I don't know what kind of cat litter you are providing but if it is a good quality clumping litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus you need to scoop the wet clumps twice a day and remove the poo as soon as possible after it has been deposited. It is possible the kitten does not want to use the tray sometimes because it is not clean enough for him. Some cats are fussier than others about cleanliness of the trays.
> 
> If you're providing a non-clumping litter then it needs scooping twice a day and the whole tray emptying out, being washed every day and refilling with fresh litter.
> 
> The other thing of significance you mention is he is a 6 month old entire male which means it is time to neuter him, now, not in the next month or so. He has already reached sexual maturity and the risk is he will shortly, any time now, begin displaying the normal behaviour of an un-neutered male cat, i.e. spraying urine around your home. The urine of an un-neutered cat is very smelly because of the hormones. Not only that, but if a cat starts the habit of spraying it may be difficult to get him to stop, *even after he is neutered!*
> 
> More cats are given up for rehoming due to spraying and house soiling than for any other reason. This is mostly due to late neutering. How would you feel about your little guy if he was spraying your home every day and making it smell bad? It would probably ruin your enjoyment of your home and it would spoil kitty's life if you had to rehome him. I would not risk that.
> 
> My thoughts are that the soiling on the floor could be partly due to the litter trays, but also could be due to him scent marking his territory with urine because he is an entire tom cat. This is why I say it is urgent to get him neutered a.s.a.p.
> 
> Any cat or kitten who has a bladder issue should be fed wet food only, no dry food. The reason is that wet food enables him to ingest more fluids with his food as nature intends for the cat. More fluids = a higher volume of urine, and more dilute, which encourages kitty to urinate more often which is what we want as it will keep his bladder flushed through and more comfortable for him. It won't however stop him spraying or scent marking.


Thanks so much for the response. I'll take him to the vet this weekend to get it done and buy a few more litter trays and see what happens. I really appreciate it.


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## chillminx

Good luck. Please let us know how things go with the little guy.


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## GoldenGecko

GREAT site.......I'm new here and have 2 cats, Harley & Davidson who are both 15 and are like big kids. I recently moved into a new house and went on vacation 2.5 months later. The move went well and both cats adjusted perfectly. With the new house I installed cameras both in and out of the house, which now enabled me to view the pet sitter who I've used several times. A year ago the I only had inexpensive cameras with no video and when I arrived home Harley was excited, then within hours went lethargic and was constipated so took him to the vet the next day. Blood work and Xrays were clean, and figured he suffered from Separation Anxiety Disorder. 

With the new house and cameras I could clearly see that neither cat was being played with or was given attention - something they get all day long from me (work at home) or company who just love their social disposition. It was upsetting to say the least, having to pay a pet sitter to read and not even talk to my cats. I could see on the camera that Harley had pooped a few times on the floor. Accidents happen, and I was away so understood this. I put out another litter box in the hall, also away from their food station.

I've been home a month now and each day Harley poops outside the litter box..........both have lots of water as I mix it with their wet food and pee in the litter box. Harley cries as he tries to poop, so maybe he's constipated although he poops on a regular basis - just not in the box. I see him try to poop but unsuccessful........I took the cover off, I took out a lot of the litter, I clean it every time either cat used it, and it's as if he just doesn't want to go anymore. His poop is a tad firm and dry.........so last night started to give them both (they switch food bowl each feeding time) a bit of pumpkin and some wet fiber food. Hopefully this will help, if not it may mean a trip to the vet.

Harley is active, playful and eats well...........so perhaps you can suggest how to either retrain or break his habit he just developed.

Thanks and I appreciate the information provided on this site and in this thread, 

Shawna


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## chillminx

@GoldenGecko -

Hi Shawna, welcome to the forum 

It is very likely that Harley is pooping outside the box because he is uncomfortable or in pain when he poops. You mentioned he cries as he tries to defecate, and this would suggest he is straining due to constipation. The problem is that he is now associating the litter tray with discomfort. The only way to resolve the tray avoidance is to get his bowel problem sorted out so he no longer sees the tray as a source of pain and misery.

Once the constipation is resolved he will probably revert automatically to using his trays. If he doesn't then I can guide you through re-training him. But as I say no re-training is going to work until his bowel is comfortable again. Stools need to be firm and sausage shaped, (so as to empty the anal glands during defecation) but not hard or dry.

Evidently the problem began when you were away - could the pet sitter perhaps have fed him too much dry food ? I have known pet sitters who seem to think 'more is better'. 

I would feed him wet food as you are doing and add fibre to it. If he is happy to eat added pumpkin that's fine. There is also a high fibre wet food made by Almo Nature which might be worth trying. It's labelled for hairball prevention but is high in fibre, so also OK for constipation. I'd also add a little water to his wet food to maximise his fluid intake.

Best to ensure he is getting the food intended for him by giving the 2 cats separate feeding stations, one on the floor, one on a work top.


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## GoldenGecko

Thanks Chillmink;

They are both on wet food as Davidson was diagnosed with diabetes a little over3 yrs ago, then I followed a strict protocol on a Feline Diabetes Forum (great help, just like this one) and I after 3 months I got him off insulin and he's been in remission for 3 yrs now........at that time I switched to WET FOOD ONLY (learnt how bad dry food is for cats) and both have never had dry food since. I mix it with a ton of water, however I read that even if there is a lot of water in the food, it may not be retained or absorbed in the intestines which makes the stools softer. 

I picked up some Lactulose from the vet today and will give him 3ml twice daily, the same I did the last time this happened a year ago. I put out another litter box further away, cleaned them both and made sure of the depth of litter. After tonight's dinner (first course) Harley did have a small poop in the litter box (YIPPEE) and it was very dark. Most likely from the fiber and pumpkin. I will monitor him over the next couple of days with the Lactulose and if does not work then I will take him to the vet.

I will check on the high fiber food you suggested, but it MUST be low in carbs as with Davidson being in remission I don't want him to have any high carbs which could possibly being back the diabetes. I watch them eat, feeding them in two stages about 30 min apart, and I'm feeding them both the same food. 

Hopefully the addition of fiber is the cure, if not then perhaps it's a medical issue as to why he's constipated and I don't mind paying a vet bill if it's necessary.
Thanks again
Shawna


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## chuckalicious

Hi everyone. Looking for a bit of advice. Can't find anything specific after reading through this thread.

I rehomed 2 8 year old cats a month or so ago. They have always loved together and are amazingly relaxed and friendly cats. They have settled into the family fantastically.

Initially they had a litter tray in our bathroom while we kept them in for the first few weeks. They now have a cat flap which one has no issues with and the other isn't a fan but will use it.

We have since moved the litter tray (a covered one) outside as we had always hoped they would start going to the toilet outside. The cat who is happy with the cat flap goes out regularly and uses the tray for pee and poo. The other one *mostly* does the same. She will go out and poo in it, and she must be peeing in there too or at least outside. However every few days she seems to pee in the bathroom corner where the tray used to be (we keep the door closed but every now and then the kids leave it open). She has once done it in the corner by our front door too.

I'm a little puzzled by this. She never once did this when the tray was inside and she happily shared it with the other cat. She seems to poo in the outside one no problems so I don't understand why she sometimes pees inside. The tray completely enclosed so I don't think it is a privacy thing.

Any ideas what I can try to help her always go outside?

Thanks.


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## chillminx

@chuckalicious -

Hi, you've mentioned that one of your cats is not 100% keen on using the catflap, and it follows there will inevitably be times when she is therefore reluctant to go outside for her toilet. Cats feel vulnerable when they are at their toilet and not all cats feel safe toiletting outside. Especially if neighbourhood cats come in to your garden and make your cat feel nervous when she is toiletting.

It could even be that using a covered tray outdoors is to blame, as most cats who toilet outdoors like to be able to see around themselves while they toilet. It helps them feel less vulnerable if they can see who might be approaching.

It may be the weather putting her off, e.g. if it is cold, rainy or windy then she feels more comfortable toiletting indoors. In which case as there is no tray for her she uses the floor - especially the corner in the bathroom where the tray used to be.

There could also be an element of your cat not wanting to share just one tray all the time with her feline companion. 3 large litter trays are in fact the minimum requirement for 2 adult cats, unless you have made a latrine for them in your garden, using garden soil, or they are happy to use dug over flower beds. (but not neighbours' gardens hopefully! ) If they have a latrine in the garden (which you scoop every day) then they might manage possibly with one litter tray. But not otherwise.

My advice to resolve this issue would be to provide an absolute minimum of 2 trays, one outdoors and one indoors in the bathroom. This would probably make your reluctant cat much happier, which is I am sure what you want. 

Otherwise you could install cat proof fencing in your garden so no neighbourhood cats can get in. (and your cats can't get out). This may gradually over time help your nervous cat to feel safer toiletting outdoors. On the other hand it may not help if it is the weather bothering her, as opposed to her fears of strange cats.

You could try putting an extra tray out of doors, a distance away from the first tray and see if that encourages her. It would not be expensive to try and may possibly work. Naturally both the trays would need scooping a couple of times a day just as if they were indoor trays and the litter changing completely at regular intervals.

If the outdoor trays are located in a porch or covered area then I recommend changing them to open trays as your nervous cat may be more comfortable with that, as she would not be enclosed in a covered tray.

If the trays are not under cover so are exposed to the elements then I recommend you use designated outdoor trays as they keep the litter from getting damp. This is the one I recommend:

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/...s_nofilter/litter_boxes_without_filter/588901

Over night hopefully your cats are shut safely indoors in which case they will need 2 indoor litter trays then.


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## chuckalicious

Thanks for the detailed response. What I don't understand is that she is managing to go outside to poo just fine. 

They managed 3 weeks indoors sharing 1 tray with no issues so I'm not convinced they need more than 1 tray - they are extremely close to each other and there is no evident hierarchy. 

The plan has always been for there to be no toilet in the house. Any cat we have had in the past has always gone outdoors at a site chosen themselves. The hope is we can do the same for these 2. I know it is early days so fingers crossed

The tray they have is essentially like the one you posted, but with a flap door rather than the under and up tunnel. She can use that fine for poos. 

I should add we live in the middle of woodland so there is, I would think, limitless places for them to go to the toilet.


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## chillminx

There is no hierarchy between cats. But one cat may be more possessive of their resources than another one, less willing to share. This may be the case with your two, even though they are close pals.

Cats do not naturally share their resources with other cats, unless if it is a mother with her kittens. Therefore it is instinctive behaviour not to like sharing toiletting space. Adding more litter trays reduces the need for competition and often resolves house soiling issues.

Your two managed 3 weeks indoors sharing one tray because they were new to you. When cats are in a new environment they suppress some of their normal behaviour. Once they begin to settle in to a new home they start to show their preferences.

Cats are very logical creatures who have their own reasons for doing things, which may not match up with your human ideas of how a cat should behave. Also cats are individual in their preferences about litter trays. Just because your previous cats did not mind going outside to toilet does not mean that will apply to every single cat who ever lives with you now or in the future. It is important to be open minded and flexible when living with cats.

A cat who poos in a tray and refuses to pee in it (or alternatively will pee in a tray and not poo in it) is telling you clearly they are not happy with only having just one tray. It is standard behaviour for many cats to prefer to pee in one tray and poo in another. So you have one cat who is prepared to put up with having one tray for both pee and poo. Not all cats are the same, as I said.

It is so little trouble for you to provide 2 outdoor trays for them, and who knows, it may actually help! But personally I think your cat wants an indoor tray - at least in the winter weather. In summer she may not mind.

A covered tray needs the door flap removing. Cats *hate *to be completely enclosed when they are at their toilet. .

Your cat is trying to tell you something by peeing indoors on the floor. I promise you she is not trying to be awkward. She may have come from a home where she was always provided with an indoor tray and may find it hard to adapt to being without one. The best thing is to try and understand what she is telling you, and then meet her needs accordingly.


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## Catherine2016

Hi All,

Great thread - thanks Ceiling Kitty.

I'm hoping someone has a few suggestions for us. We have a (almost) 14 year old male cat who, within the past month, has started pooing in the house.

He will be in the garden, and seems to think about or start to poo, before something spooks him and he will run into the house and lose his poo in a couple (or more) places in the house, usually the kitchen. Or, he will come into the house, from the garden, aimlessly wander and then start to poo. We put a litter tray just outside our back door by the cat flap, which he has used three times, but he's had nine accidents indoors in the past week. He has not peed inside at all. Previously he had always been fastidious about going to the toilet outdoors.

We took him in to the vet last week, and he had a blood test which came back clear - they tested for hyperthyroidism and did a general screen. We're also currently awaiting the results from a sample taken from a lump on his back which is still at cytology. He previously had a benign tumour on his hip which was removed, and this feels similar, so I'm not sure yet whether this is relevant or not.

His existing health issues are:
Allergies to dust mites/fleas - for which he has a monthly immunotherapy injection. He usually needs a top up steroid injection every four months or so.
He often brings up his food - but he has had this problem since he was a kitten and is on a bland food diet.

If physical health issues are ruled out, could he just be getting confused or forgetful? He has become more clingy over the past few months, sleeping more and is more vocal, but the accidents have come on without warning. For the most part though, he seems fairly happy, and nothing in his environment has changed. We do have another 10 year old (female) cat, but their interaction seems to be the same.

We're going to put a second litter tray in the kitchen, perhaps try Feliway, but if anyone has any other suggestions it would be much appreciated!

Thanks.


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## chillminx

Hello @Catherine2016 and welcome. 

Cats are vulnerable when they toilet to attack from other cats or predators. A 14 yr old cat, even one in apparent reasonable health, is going to feel more vulnerable at his age than a young adult cat would, and therefore will probably feel much more secure using indoor litter trays for pooing in from now on. For the time being he may feel safe to pee outdoors as a cat is less vulnerable when peeing outside than when he poos. i.e. he can more easily run away from an attacker.

For a senior cat of his age I would provide at least 3 litter trays indoors, spread around the house. In the case of your cat who seems to be experiencing 'urgency' when he needs to poo, I would provide 4 trays, spread around indoors, so there is likely to be one near him wherever he is in the house and hopefully he can get to one before he has an 'accident'.

Urgency, when pooing, can be due to inflammation in the bowel, or constipation (where there is overflow), or conversely to a stool that is too loose. The bowel may not be working as well as it should.

How would you describe his stools - e.g. are they firm and formed, like sausages, or loose and soft, or hard and dry? If they are not firm and formed then he has a problem, which can probably be corrected with a change of diet.

You mention he is on a bland diet, I am not sure what that means, could you elaborate on what you feed him please?

It is not normal for a cat to regularly bring up his food - what investigations have been done so far by the vet to ascertain the cause? The fact he has done this since he was a kitten is not a reason not to identify the cause, e.g. possible food allergy or food sensitivity to a specific protein, or IBD (which often causes vomiting).


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## Catherine2016

Thanks for the suggestions - will for sure try more litter trays. It makes sense that he could be feeling more insecure. But, like you say, inflammation could potentially be an issue, so next time I speak to the vet I will ask them about this. His poos are firm/seem normal. 

Sorry, should have explained more about his background. He brings up food maybe once a week. When we started immunotherapy injections, the vet advised we should also keep his food in the fridge, as one of his allergies was storage mites. The combination of approaches has certainly improved him from before and he maintains his weight. He's currently on James Beloved dry food (senior fish).

Thanks.


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## chillminx

Just to add - if he brings up his food partially digested or undigested then it's likely to be because on a dry food diet he is not drinking enough to rehydrate the food and make it digestible.

On a 100% dry food diet he would need to drink nearly half a pint of water a day to rehydrate the food. That is a lot of water for a cat to drink in a day, when they are not an animal who is really designed to drink much. Cats are designed to get their fluids in their food - (their prey).


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## ErinLeigh11

I'm living with my mom now for a while to save money. She has one 7 year old tabby cat and just got a Corgi puppy. When Lucy was younger, my mom had her declawed, I wasn't living with her to influence her decision on doing it, I would have strongly opposed. Lucy had some behavioral problems with aggression against humans at odd moments following her being affectionate, I always thought it was due to the declawing, they need to display aggression to compensate for a lack of any means of defense. This has passed and she is simply sweet all the time.

She can't stand the puppy. She's a dainty, pretty little thing and he's a rough and tumble, physical, aggressive (but only playful), invasive guy. She hisses and growls when confronted but it takes everything for her to come downstairs, where he usually is. That's where her litter box is. And food.

Needless to say, she spends most of her time upstairs hiding, usually in my room. All of my things are on the floor from the move, so I shut the door to my room to keep the pup from getting in and tearing up my clothes. She gets shut in sometimes. So she peed on the mattress I was sleeping on. And pooped. So I made a cozy pallette on the floor until my mom decides what to do with the mattress.

My mom continues to bring the puppy upstairs with her and shuts my door despite knowing what the cat does if shut in. There's even a gate to the upstairs so she could keep him away to give the cat more territory but chooses not to. It's as if the puppys needs are paramount and is not in tune with her kitty's needs at all. I've suggested putting a litter box upstairs but can't just put one there because its her house. 

Now the cat is peeing on the carpeted floor in my room, and I'm smelling urine everywhere I go, home or not. I'm sleeping in a cats toilet now. I'm going a little insane, it's taking its toll on me. Help!


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## ErinLeigh11

Also, I mentioned the declawing because I believe this is why she's so fearful and hides so much to the point of not going to her litter box. She can't defend herself against the pup, so she avoids at all costs. She can't speak so I'm not completely sure, but I wonder if this sounds about right...


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## chillminx

Hi @ErinLeigh11 and welcome 

Poor Lucy, her life sounds pretty miserable at present, since the arrival of the dog. My heart aches for her.  . You are right to be concerned about her. If she keeps having to live in such a stressful environment with the out of control puppy it could affect her health. As it is I would certainly be taking her to the vet a.s.a.p. for a checkup to make sure she doesn't have a urinary tract infection.

Providing a clean litter box in a safe place is essential for a cat. If it is not provided they will toilet elsewhere, as Lucy is doing. So Lucy _*must *_have at least one litter box provided for her upstairs in a safe spot where the dog is not allowed. (preferably in your room as she seems to spend most of her time there.) Provide a fine granule litter that is soft on paws and absorbs odours well. Cats Best Oko Plus is a good one.

I understand you're living in your mother's house at present, but you are a responsible adult, and I can tell you're a kind and compassionate person. I appreciate you want to help Lucy. You say Lucy spends most of her time in your bedroom and is soiling the floor and your bed. Honestly and truly I see no reason for you not to go ahead and provide Lucy with a litter box in your room. I do not see you need your mother's permission to do this, and I cannot imagine your mother would object, as it is _your _room and you are entitled to say what goes on in there.

At the same time please talk firmly but calmly to your mother, and explain to her it's a matter of Lucy being treated with the respect she deserves and provided with the minimum of what she needs so she can have some quality of life. It is cruel and unreasonable for Lucy to be expected to go downstairs to use a litter box, when she would have to run the gauntlet of a noisy, boisterous puppy!! 

I don't imagine your mother is intending to be deliberately unkind to Lucy, it is more that she does not understand Lucy's needs. Now you are living there I am hoping you can exert your wise influence and 'educate' your mother in the correct and sensitive way to care for Lucy. If you are hesitant to do so, please think of Lucy and do it for her sake.

Would your mother be willing to read a book on cat behaviour perhaps, if I recommend one to you?

The other thing is that a cat and a puppy who are strangers to each other are not going to get along unless they are introduced correctly. This is a process that can take months of patient work, and involves very short periods of gradual exposure with the puppy always on the leash and under the control of the owner during the meetings with the cat, to prevent the dog lunging at the cat. The puppy must never, _ever _be allowed to chase the cat as it will make it even more unlikely the cat and the dog ever get along.

The dog should be kept downstairs at all times giving Lucy the upstairs as her territory, with all she needs up there (her litterbox, her food her water, her toys, her scratch posts & pads, her cat tree etc) There should be a puppy gate at the bottom of the stairs to prevent the puppy getting upstairs. This is the only fair way to divide the house up between the dog and the cat.

Hopefully your mother will be taking the puppy soon to Obedience Classes ? This is so important.

Good luck, be strong, and I shall look forward to hearing that things are better for sweet Lucy.x


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## chillminx

ErinLeigh11 said:


> Also, I mentioned the declawing because I believe this is why she's so fearful and hides so much to the point of not going to her litter box. She can't defend herself against the pup, so she avoids at all costs. She can't speak so I'm not completely sure, but I wonder if this sounds about right...


Yes you are right, the fact Lucy is defenceless without her claws will make her even more fearful of the puppy. Declawing is such a terribly cruel thing to do to a cat, as I know you agree.  . Not only does it take away the cat's ability to defend themselves against attack, but also can leave them with lifelong chronic pain in their feet and spine.  (because "declawing" involves amputating the cat's toes in order to remove the nail bed)

Thinking about it, I am not sure it is going to be possible to integrate Lucy with the puppy as she may always feel too fearful without her natural God-given defences to trust the dog. In which case she needs to be allowed to live upstairs with all she needs, food, water, litter boxes etc, and have no contact with the dog.


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## ErinLeigh11

Thank you so much for your response, chillminx. My mom and I purchased a second litter box today and put it in the office room, which is upstairs. I put her in the box with a little trouble, and have her shut in that room now for a bit to see if she uses it. I talked to my mom about Lucy having her food upstairs and she didn't seem to like it but ill work on that. I agree that Lucy deserves to have her own territory.


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## chillminx

@ErinLeigh11 - I'm so pleased to hear of the progress you've made. Well done! 

Can I just say, if Lucy is not using the new box, can you take a bit of the litter from the old box and put it in there so the box smells of her.

If there are still problems after that with her using the box I would suspect a possible urinary tract infection, which will need treating by the vet.

All the best


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## lcsucr

Wonderful advice Ceiling Kitty! If you've ever experienced cat urine on your bed, sofa or other soft furnishings, you'll know how upsetting and frustrating it can be. I hope you don't mind me sharing an article I also wrote recently on how to reduce the chances of this happening: https://www.thehappycatsite.com/cat-peeing-on-bed/.


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## Mariamousmummy

Hi all this is my first post here. i have 2 beautiful 9 month old kittens, one of them i believe is calling and for the past month has started weeing on my bed, normally at 5am only, i've got 2 cat litters always clean and i had her treated for a UTI too as well as given cystophan. i scrub the bed and bed clothes are washed thoroughly each time. I don't know what to do about this? I love her dearly but i can't have a cat who wees on my bed, this morning she even weed on my bed while i was in it on top of me! Please Help! thanks x


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## chillminx

Hello @Mariamousmummy and welcome. 

May I please start my reply by asking why your kittens are not spayed? At 9 months they are sexually mature, and unless they are part of a properly planned breeding programme with health checked studs, they should be spayed as soon as possible. In fact, after the kitten's call has ended you should book them both in for spaying.

Leaving them unspayed is going to cause the kind problems like spraying and scent marking you are already experiencing in the house. One kitten is marking your bed, because your bed has the strongest scent of you and she wants to protect her resources (you) for when she gets pregnant. The scent marking is due to her being in call but this marking may become a daily habit if she is not spayed soon.

Worse still your other kitten is likely to copy her. Spaying will in most cases stop this kind of scent marking behaviour, but in 10% of cases it does not stop it. The longer you leave it the more ingrained the habit will become and the harder to stop.

Being unspayed and not being mated the kittens are at risk of an illness called pyometra, an infection of the womb which can be fatal it not treated promptly. If your kittens have already had several calls, there is a risk already that one of them could have pyometra.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/pyometra-in-cats

There is a risk unspayed kittens will try hard to get out of your home to find mates. They will then mate with any passing male cat, with all the risks of catching a disease such as FIV (Feline Aids). It is not fair to risk that happening to your kittens. People say their indoor cats could never get out, but it happens I'm afraid.

Until you have had your kittens spayed I advise you to keep them shut out of your bedroom, or the scent marking will continue. It may continue in other parts of the house anyway until they are spayed, but at least that is better than on your bed. Once they are spayed you need to expect it to be about a month before their hormone levels fall and the scent marking hopefully stops.

If the cost of the vets fees for the spay operations is an issue for you, please contact your local branch of Cats Protection (if you are in the UK) and they will give you vouchers to help pay the vets fees.

Please, please, please, I beg you, get your kittens spayed a.s.a.p for the sake of their health.


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## lcsucr

Hi Mariamousmummy. I'm so sorry to hear your concerns for your kitten. The first thing to establish is whether this is actually scent marking ie urine-spraying or simply weeing, as the two behaviours are very different, the motivations for performing them are different, and therefore the way they are treated is also different. Is she squatting and leaving a puddle of urine on the duvet cover or standing up with a vertical tail and spraying a horizontal jet of urine? Either way, it sounds like you will need some form of professional behavioural intervention. If you'd like to message I can let you know what this would involve.


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## lcsucr

chillminx said:


> Hello @Mariamousmummy and welcome.
> 
> May I please start my reply by asking why your kittens are not spayed? At 9 months they are sexually mature, and unless they are part of a properly planned breeding programme with health checked studs, they should be spayed as soon as possible. In fact, after the kitten's call has ended you should book them both in for spaying.
> 
> Leaving them unspayed is going to cause the kind problems like spraying and scent marking you are already experiencing in the house. One kitten is marking your bed, because your bed has the strongest scent of you and she wants to protect her resources (you) for when she gets pregnant. The scent marking is due to her being in call but this marking may become a daily habit if she is not spayed soon.
> 
> Worse still your other kitten is likely to copy her. Spaying will in most cases stop this kind of scent marking behaviour, but in 10% of cases it does not stop it. The longer you leave it the more ingrained the habit will become and the harder to stop.
> 
> Being unspayed and not being mated the kittens are at risk of an illness called pyometra, an infection of the womb which can be fatal it not treated promptly. If your kittens have already had several calls, there is a risk already that one of them could have pyometra.
> 
> https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/pyometra-in-cats
> 
> There is a risk unspayed kittens will try hard to get out of your home to find mates. They will then mate with any passing male cat, with all the risks of catching a disease such as FIV (Feline Aids). It is not fair to risk that happening to your kittens. People say their indoor cats could never get out, but it happens I'm afraid.
> 
> Until you have had your kittens spayed I advise you to keep them shut out of your bedroom, or the scent marking will continue. It may continue in other parts of the house anyway until they are spayed, but at least that is better than on your bed. Once they are spayed you need to expect it to be about a month before their hormone levels fall and the scent marking hopefully stops.
> 
> If the cost of the vets fees for the spay operations is an issue for you, please contact your local branch of Cats Protection (if you are in the UK) and they will give you vouchers to help pay the vets fees.
> 
> Please, please, please, I beg you, get your kittens spayed a.s.a.p for the sake of their health.


Hi Chillminx. I can see from your response to Mariamousmummy's first post that you're a strong advocate of early neutering and I absolutely agree with you on this. However, such strength of conviction can sometimes mean we give advice based only on that particular issue, rather than considering other factors. From a behavioural perspective it's unlikely that the neutering issue has anything to do with Mariamousmummy's post and equally unlikely that the behaviour is scent marking. It's important that people who come to the forum asking for help, get a supportive response and the right information that's tailored to their particular set of circumstances. I hope you don't mind me pointing this out!


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## chillminx

lcsucr said:


> Hi Chillminx. I can see from your response to Mariamousmummy's first post that you're a strong advocate of early neutering and I absolutely agree with you on this. However, such strength of conviction can sometimes mean we give advice based only on that particular issue, rather than considering other factors. From a behavioural perspective it's unlikely that the neutering issue has anything to do with Mariamousmummy's post and equally unlikely that the behaviour is scent marking. It's important that people who come to the forum asking for help, get a supportive response and the right information that's tailored to their particular set of circumstances. I hope you don't mind me pointing this out!


It's a public forum, of course you are free to say what you like, within the rules of the forum.  .

I don't agree with your sweeping statements that the soiling issue has nothing to do with late neutering (i.e. well after the age of sexual maturity). Nor do I agree that the behaviour is nothing to do with scent marking. The fact is it could be caused by either or both, as you should surely know with your training?! Plenty of documented information from reputable sources to back this up.

I have no axe to grind, and I believe I give a thoughtful, sensitive and supportive response with the appropriate information tailored to each individual set of circumstances to everyone I advise on this forum. I am not sure I would say the same for you, judging by your rather arrogant attitude.


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## Mariamousmummy

Hi all, thanks for your helpful advice. i thought i had to wait till they were a year old before neutering them but i'm now trying to get a voucher through a cat charity to help with the cost of neutering ASAP. She is now calling big time and is marking i believe not weeing, she isn't swatting i don't think but she doesn't this quivering tail thing when she does it. and leaves behind a little liquid not much. i've taken to sleeping with a shower curtain over my bed, this hasn't deterred her but at least its not soiling my bedding! anyway i'm now waiting to hear about neutering and should hear in 48 hours. its a shame shes changed personality and doesn't want to play or be cuddled shes just fretting and yowling non stop and showing her bottom to anything and everything. poor baby! I'm getting her sorted as soon as i can and i just hope that sorts the issue. I'll get her sister sorted too.


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## chillminx

Mariamousmummy said:


> Hi all, thanks for your helpful advice. i thought i had to wait till they were a year old before neutering them but i'm now trying to get a voucher through a cat charity to help with the cost of neutering ASAP. She is now calling big time and is marking i believe not weeing, she isn't swatting i don't think but she doesn't this quivering tail thing when she does it. and leaves behind a little liquid not much. i've taken to sleeping with a shower curtain over my bed, this hasn't deterred her but at least its not soiling my bedding! anyway i'm now waiting to hear about neutering and should hear in 48 hours. its a shame shes changed personality and doesn't want to play or be cuddled shes just fretting and yowling non stop and showing her bottom to anything and everything. poor baby! I'm getting her sorted as soon as i can and i just hope that sorts the issue. I'll get her sister sorted too.


Hi there, I'm very pleased to hear you are going to be arranging for them to be spayed very soon.  .Excellent! I am sure it will make a big difference.

Cats who keep coming into call without being mated can become very frustrated, fretful and preoccupied with finding a mate. Like your girl they may present their bottoms to anyone or anything - I recall one queen who used when in call, to present her bottom to the family dog, (!) bless her, and another who presented her bottom to a stuffed toy belonging to one of the family's kids!

Sorry to hear you were misinformed (but hopefully not by your vet) that you had to wait until the girls were a year old to neuter them, as it has resulted in you having to cope with this problem, which might have been avoided.

Statistically, apart from some of the larger pedigree breeds who mature later, most cats reach sexual maturity by the age of 6 months, but many are sexually mature at 4 months old and I have known of females pregnant at the age of 4 months (though the litter does not always survive). 

The advice nowadays from _enlightened _sources (such as International Cat Care) is to neuter soon after the age of 4 months. Many vets are now adopting a policy of neutering at 4 months, not only to reduce risk of unwanted pregnancies but also to avoid unwanted behaviours developing such as spraying, and scent marking. But if there are no signs of sexually driven behaviour in an individual cat and the cat is kept securely indoors then it might be OK to leave spaying until 6 months old, but no later than that. (because of the above).

However keeping a female cat who is 'in call' securely indoors is the potentially risky bit. A sexually mature indoor cat can become desperate to get out and find a mate, and may manage to escape from their home. Over the years we have had many worried owners posting on this forum asking for advice because their indoor unspayed cat escaped and got pregnant. 

After the girls are spayed it will take a while for their hormone levels to fall so that the spraying behaviour stops. So I would continue to keep your bed protected (the shower curtain is a good idea ) for another month or so. Also ensure all traces of urine odour are removed from your bedding and mattress. Bio Tex stain remover is excellent at eradicating urine stains and smells and has the bonus of smelling quite pleasant too.

Good luck, please let us know how things go with your two girls.


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## justine-michelle

Hi everyone, 

I'm new to the site and just joined to try and get an answer (or some answers) for the problems I'm having with my 8 month old cat, Frazzle. He's a perfectly friendly cat who loves attention but my partner and I just can't stop him from peeing or pooing in the house, this problem has just escalated and escalated as time has gone on and we have tried everything to get him to go outside. 
At first, he would use a litter tray before he was able to go outside, and he would use that selectively even though we had tried different litter, different trays, different positions in the house, it then got to the point where he would only use it when put in the tray (we would see him scratching the floor and pick him up and put him in the tray, where he would quite happily do his business), he then progressed to scratching on the floor but no longer doing it in the tray, just doing it next to the tray or back where he had been scratching to begin with, we both work full time so on a daily basis we will come home to more pee or poo in the house. After we'd got him his injections and neutered we were able to let him outside, which we hoped would spur him on with natural instincts like our other cats, but again, it was selective, if he was already outside he would do a pee or a poo but very close to the house and within view of the whole building, not at all private and he didn't even attempt to bury it. If he is in the house when he needs to go then he will just scratch again, sometimes not at all and do his business there, it was mainly poos inside before but in the last few weeks he seems to be doing those outside but still coming in to pee in our front room, no matter how many times we clean the area, he even pees and poos where he eats!!
So, we tried to combat this by my partner taking him for a walk further from the house in our garden (we have a forest that continues on from our garden that is very easily accessible) twice a day, before and after work, where he was actually doing his business outside then, taking his queue from being taken outside by my partner, this is getting exhausting because he would have to do this at 5am every morning to prevent us waking up to yet more pee in the house. Yesterday it took a turn though after us believing it was making a difference as he hadn't peed in the house since we began this regime, I believe he now associates peeing with my partner as last night for the first time ever he actually peed on my partner in our bed at just before 5am when he would usually take him out, which resulted in us having to get up and clean the bedding/mattress etc as it was everywhere, also on my partners clothes that he had taken off the night before. 

We are at the end of our rope!!! Please, if anyone has any advice at all we would really, REALLY appreciate it! He is a good natured cat and this is his only problem, which is such a shame, so anything that anyone knows of that we can try, please feel free to share it!

Sorry for such a long first post, but I just wanted to make sure I got everything in that I could think of information-wise, incase it is something we're doing wrong!


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## chillminx

Hi @justine-michelle and welcome 

I am sorry to hear you are having such a problem with Frazzle (a wonderful name for a cat btw! ).

First of all can I check with you that he is neutered and ask how long ago the castration was done? As this could have a bearing on his behaviour.

Second, could I ask what the vet has said about the soiling problem? Has a urinalysis of Frazzle's wee been done recently to see if abnormalities were present?

Can you tell me when this soiling started? Was he litter tray trained when he first came to you?

If there was a problem right from the start perhaps he was never fully trained by his own mother, or by the breeder. Was he younger than 8 weeks when you got him?

Can I ask what his poos are like? Are they formed and firm like little sausages, perhaps in segments attached to each other? (as they should normally be) Or are they soft ? Loose ? Or hard and dry? Does he show any signs of straining when he poos? Is there ever blood in his stools? If his stools are not normal then there could be discomfort in the bowel. Which might be due to diet, or possibly parasites. Has he been wormed in the past 6 months?

A cat will avoid the litter tray if he is uncomfortable when he pees or poos. In Frazzle's case he seems to be intermittently avoiding the tray for both pee and poo.

A cat might also avoid the tray if he doesn't like the type of tray, the position it is located in, or the type of litter being provided. You mention you've tried different litters, trays and sites in the house, to no avail. I would provide 3 open trays 24/7 for him at present. Use a fine granular litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus (which most cats like) and site the trays in 3 spots around the house out of the way of busy human traffic. Fill the trays to a depth of 2.5 inches.

He appears to know what the trays are for. However if/when he pees on the floor mop it up with kitchen paper, place the soiled paper in one of his trays and leave it there for a few hours. Same if he poos on the floor, pick it up and put in in his tray for a while. You can bury it in the tray, he will still know it's there. (cats having a sense of smell a thousand times stronger than a human's )

Peeing on your partner is not actually a sign Frazzle associates your partner with peeing. It is Frazzle's way of scent-marking your partner as one his valued resources. (as cats use urine to scent mark) So although I am sure it doesn't seem so to your partner, Frazzle is actually paying him a compliment.  Evidently Frazzle enjoys the time spent walking in the forest with your partner and perhaps this is the closest the two of them have ever been? So Frazzle is becoming protective of the relationship (his resource) and wants to mark your OH as 'his'. The bed is the place where the human scent is very strong and this has triggered Frazzle to respond by placing his own scent there.

However I honestly do appreciate it is unpleasant to be peed on in bed, and for that reason I recommend Frazzle is banned from the bedroom until this soiling problem is solved.

Buying a waterproof mattress cover is also recommended, (John Lewis has good ones) just in case he gets in the bedroom again. (Getting cat urine odour out of a mattress is very difficult and if any smell remains it can draw the cat back to soil the same spot).

Clean all soiled areas with an enzymatic cleaner. I use Bio Tex laundry stain remover as it is very effective and has the bonus of smelling pleasant (unlike some of the pet cleaners)

Diet wise, can you tell me what you feed Frazzle? Any cat with a bladder problem is best not to be fed any dry food, so a wet food diet is best for him.

I look forward to hearing from you. A photo of Frazzle would be lovely


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## justine-michelle

Hello @chillminx and thank you for your welcome and quick response, much appreciated!!

He is neutered and has been for the last 2-3 months, I previously said he was 8 months old, he is actually closer to a year old now (time has gone so fast). We are yet to take him to the vets regarding his indoor soiling, we were hoping we would be able to deal with it on our own, presuming it was an issue with litter training rather than any other kind of problem.

The lady I purchased him from had told me he was litter trained and we got him when he was around 16 weeks old, from what I can remember we definitely didn't have anywhere near this much trouble with him in the beginning, he definitely wasn't peeing and pooing on the floor in the beginning, at least not consistently.

His poos are generally as they should be, but he does have what we consider to be a food obsession, or at the very least he is very food focused, wolfing down his food the minute it is given and if his food bowl is left in reach he will continue to lick it throughout the day through to the next feeding time as well as push the other cats out of their bowls in order to eat theirs also, so he does have a habit if left unsupervised of finding food sources like lunches or snacks in our work bags and eating them or scaling shelves in the kitchen to get at packets of biscuits etc, so those times he has had very runny, liquid poos as a result of scavenging for food he shouldn't be. He has been wormed in the last 6 months and is currently up to date with everything.

We will try again with the litter trays for now, as you've advised, as we have had (some) success with them previously so hopefully with encouragement he will be more willing to use them.

We will also make sure to keep him out of the bedroom, the only issue that comes as a result of this is that he does not enjoy being separated from us by doors, windows, the cat flap, if he is not able to see us or get to us he meows non-stop at the door/window, climbing it and scratching at it aggressively til we have no choice but to let him in fearing noise complaints from neighbours as he does this outside the house as well as inside.

He currently eats a mixture of Whiskas wet food pouches and Whiskas dry food, we will try reducing the amount of dry food he has and see if that makes a difference.

Thank you for all your advice, we will definitely be investing in a good mattress protector and some extra cleaning products as well as the litter you have recommended. Also, this is the troublemaker, sweet as anything but just need to sort out his soiling problem!!


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## chillminx

@justine-michelle - aww what a sweetie, I adore ginger cats, I have one myself! 

I must apologise for the fact I omitted to ask you in my previous reply whether you have other cats. It is one of the questions I always usually ask when there is cat who is house soiling. I can't believe I left it out! I am sorry.

As I mentioned earlier it is important first to rule out any medical cause for Frazzle's soiling behaviour.
If the vet pronounces Frazzle to be in good health, then in the light of the fact you have other cats I am leaning towards Frazzle's relationships with them as being the major (if not sole) cause of his soiling.

Cats do not naturally share their resources with other cats (other than a mother and her kittens) and it is competition for resources in a multicat household that can lead to problem behaviour, sometimes from just one of the cats, sometimes from more than one.

You mention that Frazzle pushes in on the other cats' food bowls. This could be the behaviour of a hungry cat but can also be a cat who feels in competition for food, and fears he may not have enough to eat. Feelings of insecurity will cause him to scent mark either with his urine or his faeces (the latter is known as "middening" ). Scent marking conveys to the other cats that he is claiming a right to the territory and resources.

There is the possibility that one or more of your other cats is subtly blocking Frazzle from using the litter trays. It can happen in multi-cat households. Litter trays are valuable resources and your resident cats may not like sharing trays with the newcomer. It is unlikely you would see the blocking when it happens.

If there is a cat flap, one resident cat may sit in front of it and block another resident cat from going out or coming back in. The entrance/exit of the home being a very important resource to cats.

Without being able to observe your cats interacting it is not possible for me to say which cat Frazzle feels most in competition with. A young male cat might feel most in competition with an older male, but it's not always the case. It could be a confident adult female whom he sees as his main competitor for resources.

Frazzle peeing on your partner and in your bed makes sense, seen in the context of a multi cat household. He is marking your partner as his resource, and mixing his scent with both your scents in the bed as a means of conveying to the other cats his claim on you and your partner.

Frazzle trying to take food from the other cats is a fairly aggressive act and I am surprised the other cats tolerate it. Cats are usually very protective of their food resources. Is he ever aggressive in other ways, such as chasing them (not in fun), swiping at them or attacking them? Do any of them seem wary of him?

If I'm right about the cause, resolving it will take time and patience to help Frazzle live contentedly with the other cats. (I speak from experience! ) It may be with your present group of cats you might not manage to eradicate all the soiling and scent marking, but you may be able to get to a more manageable position. However there is the possibility that Frazzle would be happier living in a home where he would be the only cat.

Are you 100% certain it is always Frazzle doing ALL the soiling? Do you always witness him soiling? If not I would not assume it is always him. Cats in multi-cat households have been known to respond to soiling by copying the culprit and doing the same thing themselves.

The main way to improve the situation for all the cats is to provide lots more resources, so many resources that the cats feel overwhelmed by the amount of resources - in a good sense. This will help to reduce the competition.

A major resource is food. Frazzle should have his own feeding station in a separate room to the others. Perhaps buy him a microchip feeder so he can gradually learn his food is safe and none of the others can take it.

To stop him muscling in on the other cats' food it would probably be best to buy them all microchip feeders. I know it is an expense but truly I have found it is the one sure way to protect the food resources in a multi cat household. I have 4 of the feeders and they work like a charm to keep the peace!

Water is also a resource and there should be several bowls of fresh water (or fountains) placed around the house away from the food.

Litter trays - the minimum required is one tray per cat plus one extra. So if you have 3 cats that would be 4 litter trays. But with Frazzle and the likelihood of competition for trays more trays are better. So if you have 3 cats I'd put down 6 trays. It may sound excessive but the more trays you have the more success Frazzle will have in finding a tray he can use without being blocked by one of the other cats.
(But note - he may not actually like sharing a tray with any of the cats).

Scratch posts and horizontal scratch pads are another resource. Several to every room, and always one placed near the door to every room, and the back door. Cats like to scent mark with their claws when they enter the house or enter the room.

High up places to sit and snooze or watch the world go by - e.g. tall cat trees, or shelves providing a safe route up to the top of a cupboard or wardrobe.

Hidey holes to tuck themselves away. Use cardboard boxes, or igloo beds tucked behind furniture.

Cat beds - plenty all over the house, so the cats have lots of choice when they change their sleeping places (as they like to do)

Access to their human companions is another valued resource. Frazzle has formed a bond with your partner as a result of their walks. I suggest building on this so they develop a 'special relationship'. 
Your partner could be the one feeding him when possible, and should make a point of greeting him when he comes in, fussing him, and playing with him every day. Play is a very bonding process between human and cat. I am not suggesting you ignore Frazzle yourself, but perhaps step back a bit when practical to do so, and let your partner develop his bond with him. A close relationship with one of his humans will help Frazzle feel more secure.

If he is only a year old he is still growing and cats of that age often have huge appetites. My boys at his age easily ate 500 grams of wet food a day and were not overweight. I am concerned that a cat who rifles work bags and pinches human food may be a hungry cat, not a greedy cat. Human food such as contents of sandwiches may not be good for him (e.g. too much salt being bad for his kidneys).

As mentioned before any cat with bladder issues is best fed a wet food diet only to ensure he is getting enough fluids in his diet to aid healthy bladder and kidney function.

Please let us know how things go.


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## LizL

I wonder if you can help? i have one cat who is a house cat, 9year old spayed female, she is very territorial in the house but not had a problem until recently, i went away for the weekend and day after i returned she urinated on me whilst in bed, then another time we went on holiday, put her in the cattery she has always been to then day after we got back, she pooed on the bed. 
Now every so often she has been urinating and pooing on the bed, and had to throw out all the bedding, but seemed to be after the cleaner had been, but we had a cleaner since she was a kitten so it wasn't really anything new, but she did attack her once she went near then bed as very territorial of that area.
I took her to the vet and he said there were no problems with her, healthy cat and get the Feliway plug in which i have done and since we have closed the door to the bedroom. 
It all seemed to be problem sorted, then she has now pooped on my husbands chair a few times since now, not sure what to do?


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## Mariamousmummy

Hi all, it's Maria's mum again. You may remember she was weeping on beds and it was suggested that I have her neutered? Well I did and I had her treated for a uti........ but she's still doing it and is now weeping on all 3 beds in the house! I'm at my wits end! I seriously don't know what to do? She lives in a quiet house with her sister who she gets along with. There's 2 cat litters in the house and in all other respects she seems happy and content?
Help! Please!


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## chillminx

Mariamousmummy said:


> Hi all, it's Maria's mum again. You may remember she was weeping on beds and it was suggested that I have her neutered? Well I did and I had her treated for a uti........ but she's still doing it and is now weeping on all 3 beds in the house! I'm at my wits end! I seriously don't know what to do? She lives in a quiet house with her sister who she gets along with. There's 2 cat litters in the house and in all other respects she seems happy and content?
> Help! Please!


Hi there, if she has only recently been spayed it will take time for her hormone levels to fall.

It is possible she has cystitis, which she could have without having a UTI. A cat with cystitis will avoid the litter tray and seek out soft places to pee, because the litter tray becomes associated with pain.

If you are feeding dry food, switch her over to wet food. Feeding dry food can cause chronic dehydration, and can result in health problems such as cystitis and crystals in the bladder and also kidney problems. Some cases of house soiling are resolved simply by switching to a wet food diet. Her urine will be greater in volume on a wet food diet and more dilute and she will pee more often, which is what we want. Her bladder will be flushed through more often.

Until she is on the wet food diet full time, keep her out of the bedrooms, or put waterproof mattress covers on top of each bed when you are not in bed. Cover the waterproofs with old sheets or fleeces. This may stop her soiling the beds.


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## chillminx

LizL said:


> I wonder if you can help? i have one cat who is a house cat, 9year old spayed female, she is very territorial in the house but not had a problem until recently, i went away for the weekend and day after i returned she urinated on me whilst in bed, then another time we went on holiday, put her in the cattery she has always been to then day after we got back, she pooed on the bed.
> Now every so often she has been urinating and pooing on the bed, and had to throw out all the bedding, but seemed to be after the cleaner had been, but we had a cleaner since she was a kitten so it wasn't really anything new, but she did attack her once she went near then bed as very territorial of that area.
> I took her to the vet and he said there were no problems with her, healthy cat and get the Feliway plug in which i have done and since we have closed the door to the bedroom.
> It all seemed to be problem sorted, then she has now pooped on my husbands chair a few times since now, not sure what to do?


Welcome to the forum.  I am so sorry I only just saw your post.

It sounds as though your cat could be scent marking because she feels insecure and anxious when she is separated from you. She chooses places that smell strongly of you and your husband, e.g. the bed and your husband's chair.

It sounds as though she needs lots of reassurance from you to help her feel secure. I think she might benefit from a course of Zylkene in her food. It is a calming supplement, not a drug, and safe to take long term. If she weighs under 5 kg the dose is one 75 mg capsule, mix the powder with food. If she weighs over 5kg the dose is 2 capsules a day.

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/zylkene-75mg-for-cats-and-small-dogs-20-capsules-(online-only)

She needs a minimum of two litter trays, but I'd give her 3 trays for the moment.

Any cat with a bladder problem of any kind needs to be on a wet food diet. No dry food. The fluids in a wet food diet will make her urine more dilute and flush her bladder out as she pees more often.


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## lcsucr

Hi Mariamousmummy. I'm sorry to hear that there's been an escalation in your cat's weeing behaviour. Given what you say, this has got to the stage where you might want to consider getting some qualified help. Your vet may be able to refer you to a behaviourist in your area. If not, let me know where you're located and I can see if there's one I can recommend that's near you.


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## Mariamousmummy

chillminx said:


> Hi there, if she has only recently been spayed it will take time for her hormone levels to fall.
> 
> It is possible she has cystitis, which she could have without having a UTI. A cat with cystitis will avoid the litter tray and seek out soft places to pee, because the litter tray becomes associated with pain.
> 
> If you are feeding dry food, switch her over to wet food. Feeding dry food can cause chronic dehydration, and can result in health problems such as cystitis and crystals in the bladder and also kidney problems. Some cases of house soiling are resolved simply by switching to a wet food diet. Her urine will be greater in volume on a wet food diet and more dilute and she will pee more often, which is what we want. Her bladder will be flushed through more often.
> 
> Until she is on the wet food diet full time, keep her out of the bedrooms, or put waterproof mattress covers on top of each bed when you are not in bed. Cover the waterproofs with old sheets or fleeces. This may stop her soiling the beds.


H

Hi she was neutered over a month ago and I have in the past few weeks switched her to an all wet food diet. I've tested her urine with a test stick and it came back clean? She's such a lovely sweet personality, I don't want to get rid of her, it would break my heart and her sister's too. Photo of Maria attached


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## Mariamousmummy

lcsucr said:


> Hi Mariamousmummy. I'm sorry to hear that there's been an escalation in your cat's weeing behaviour. Given what you say, this has got to the stage where you might want to consider getting some qualified help. Your vet may be able to refer you to a behaviourist in your area. If not, let me know where you're located and I can see if there's one I can recommend that's near you.


The trouble is I'm disabled and on benefits. I just cannot afford an expensive behaviour expert. I go to the pdsa for vets.


----------



## lcsucr

Mariamousmummy said:


> The trouble is I'm disabled and on benefits. I just cannot afford an expensive behaviour expert. I go to the pdsa for vets.


Hi Maria. It might be worth having a chat with one of the vets at the PDSA (if you haven't already) to find out if they offer tailored behavioural help for cases such as yours? I've had a look on their web site and can only find very limited amounts behaviour guidance. So I'll get in touch with them to find out what their policy is on this and will report back if I get any news that might help you.


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## Mariamousmummy

Thanks Icsucr! X I look forward to hearing from you


----------



## chillminx

Mariamousmummy said:


> H
> 
> Hi she was neutered over a month ago and I have in the past few weeks switched her to an all wet food diet. I've tested her urine with a test stick and it came back clean? She's such a lovely sweet personality, I don't want to get rid of her, it would break my heart and her sister's too. Photo of Maria attached


Maria is very beautiful !  Is she a Chinchilla Persian? They usually do have very sweet personalities.

If Maria is a pedigree have you spoken to her breeder about the problem? If not the breeder should be your next port of call.

Testing her urine with a stick won't show if she has cystitis or not. I am glad she is on a wet food diet now, it is definitely a step in the right direction. Unfortunately she is in the habit now of soiling the bed, and it can be hard to change a cat's habits sometimes.

When a physical cause such as a UTI, crystals in the bladder, or hormones has been ruled out, the cause of peeing on the bed may be due to stress. Chronic anxiety can cause chemical imbalances in the body and result in idiopathic cystitis, i.e. inflammation of the bladder with an unknown cause.

Maria may get along with her sister OK, but she may have anxieties about something else within her environment. It could be due to her feeling there is a lot of competition with her sister for resources.

At this stage I think it would be helpful for a feline behavourist to come and observe Maria at home. I understand you are on Benefits and using the PDSA vets. Can you say which area of the UK you are in, as I know someone experienced in cat behaviour who might possibly be willing to help you for no charge, depending on where you live, i.e.)

Meanwhile, does Maria use her litter trays at all for peeing in? Are you providing a minimum of 3 trays for the 2 cats? Are they open trays or covered trays? Are they spread around the home? Does she use her trays OK for pooing in? Are her stools normal? i.e. firm and formed like sausages?


----------



## Mariamousmummy

chillminx said:


> Maria is very beautiful !  Is she a Chinchilla Persian? They usually do have very sweet personalities.
> 
> If Maria is a pedigree have you spoken to her breeder about the problem? If not the breeder should be your next port of call.
> 
> Testing her urine with a stick won't show if she has cystitis or not. I am glad she is on a wet food diet now, it is definitely a step in the right direction. Unfortunately she is in the habit now of soiling the bed, and it can be hard to change a cat's habits sometimes.
> 
> When a physical cause such as a UTI, crystals in the bladder, or hormones has been ruled out, the cause of peeing on the bed may be due to stress. Chronic anxiety can cause chemical imbalances in the body and result in idiopathic cystitis, i.e. inflammation of the bladder with an unknown cause.
> 
> Maria may get along with her sister OK, but she may have anxieties about something else within her environment. It could be due to her feeling there is a lot of competition with her sister for resources.
> 
> At this stage I think it would be helpful for a feline behavourist to come and observe Maria at home. I understand you are on Benefits and using the PDSA vets. Can you say which area of the UK you are in, as I know someone experienced in cat behaviour who might possibly be willing to help you for no charge, depending on where you live, i.e.)
> 
> Meanwhile, does Maria use her litter trays at all for peeing in? Are you providing a minimum of 3 trays for the 2 cats? Are they open trays or covered trays? Are they spread around the home? Does she use her trays OK for pooing in? Are her stools normal? i.e. firm and formed like sausages?


Hi, the breeder has just said to check for uti but has had no further suggestions. Maria came to uslitter trained and was fine until we had some decorating done. This was also the time when she started to call. It was at this point that she started to wee on the bed, always at 5am for some reason although this has now changed. I've taken her to the vet 2x for treatment of uti (which has shown up in a stick test) and on each treatment the soiling has stopped once she started feeling better. But only for a short time and then she would start soiling again. I've stopped the decorating, had her neutered a month ago, I've given them 2 litters instead of 1, switched her to wet food, have her own 1 tablet of zylkene and 1 tablet of D-mannose per day. ( d-mannose seems to be what's cleared up her uti. She's on bozita wet cat food in various flavours. She knows I don't like her weeing but she still wees on the bed in front of me sometimes and has even soiled the sofa too. At one point I had a shower curtain over my bed but she still soiled. The only thing that actually seems to deter her is liberal amounts of lavender oil all over the beds. Which now means that neither cats want to sleep on the bed with me which is a shame since they've done that since I first got them. There's no children or other pets in the house and I live in a quiet village surrounded by feilds. Maria is not the alpha cat of the two but bizarrely when I take her outside for walks around the garden on her lead she is the 1 who is most adventurous of the 2. I'm disabled and so am at home with them all day pretty much every day. She is a pedigree Persian and will be a year old in August. They have 2 covered cat litters which are changed every day, her stools are fine.


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## chillminx

Cats do not have a hierarchy so there is no dominant (or alpha) cat in a multi cat household. But it may be the case that Maria's sister is more possessive about resources in the home. You can try and remedy that by increasing resources so competition is reduced.

Maria knows you get annoyed with her at certain times, and it will make her anxious. but she is unlikely to interpret your annoyance as being due to her weeing on the bed. Hence why she does it in front of you. She is not doing it deliberately to be badly behaved but to comfort herself if she is in pain or discomfort, or anxious. I sympathise with your predicament but if you can possibly not get annoyed with her, not tell her off, it will reduce her anxiety levels.

Interesting that D-mannose helped her. That would indicate feline cystitis. Is she still on the D-mannose? She can stay on it long term, likewise the Zylkene if it helps her. I know of several cats who are on both long term. This, along with the wet food diet, may be part of the answer.

The minimum number of trays for 2 cats is 3 trays. As Maria has this soiling problem I would provide 4 trays and make some of them open trays. It could be that her sister is subtly blocking her from using the trays for peeing in. The more trays there are, spread around, the more chance of Maria being able to find one she can use.

Are you using a fine granule non-dusty litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus or Worlds Best?

To increase the resources in the home and provide greater enrichment:

4 litter trays

Each cat to have their own separate feeding station at least 10 ft apart and out of sight of the other. Do not allow sharing of bowls. If necessary buy Maria her own Microchip feeder so she can learn her food resources are safe from her sister.

Several water bowls around the house.

Ceiling high cat trees, or shelves leading safely up to tops of cupboards, so the cats can each have their own high up places to sit and snooze.

Plenty of cat beds so they can swap around where they sleep.

Lots of cat scratching posts and pads, several to every room, including one by every door so they can scent mark with their paws when they enter a room.

Your bed may be a source of competition between Maria and her sister as it will have your scent on quite intensely to a cat's nose. It would probably be better if you did not allow either cat to share the bed with you at night, so that source of competition is removed.

A bit of independence can help with self confidence. Maria might become less focused on competition in the home, if she had other things to focus on. You say she loves being outdoors, so she would possibly enjoy having access to your garden every day. Have you looked into having your garden fenced with cat proof fencing, so she could access it on her own through a cat flap from the house?

I've found it's not always straightforward resolving soiling issues, often it is not just one thing that is the answer. A combination of changes (or adaptations) in the home may be needed for the cat to feel less anxious, and this in turn may lead to the soiling ceasing. One has to turn 'detective', to try and solve the 'puzzle'.


----------



## Mariamousmummy

chillminx said:


> Cats do not have a hierarchy so there is no dominant (or alpha) cat in a multi cat household. But it may be the case that Maria's sister is more possessive about resources in the home. You can try and remedy that by increasing resources so competition is reduced.
> 
> Maria knows you get annoyed with her at certain times, and it will make her anxious. but she is unlikely to interpret your annoyance as being due to her weeing on the bed. Hence why she does it in front of you. She is not doing it deliberately to be badly behaved but to comfort herself if she is in pain or discomfort, or anxious. I sympathise with your predicament but if you can possibly not get annoyed with her, not tell her off, it will reduce her anxiety levels.
> 
> Interesting that D-mannose helped her. That would indicate feline cystitis. Is she still on the D-mannose? She can stay on it long term, likewise the Zylkene if it helps her. I know of several cats who are on both long term. This, along with the wet food diet, may be part of the answer.
> 
> The minimum number of trays for 2 cats is 3 trays. As Maria has this soiling problem I would provide 4 trays and make some of them open trays. It could be that her sister is subtly blocking her from using the trays for peeing in. The more trays there are, spread around, the more chance of Maria being able to find one she can use.
> 
> Are you using a fine granule non-dusty litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus or Worlds Best?
> 
> To increase the resources in the home and provide greater enrichment:
> 
> 4 litter trays
> 
> Each cat to have their own separate feeding station at least 10 ft apart and out of sight of the other. Do not allow sharing of bowls. If necessary buy Maria her own Microchip feeder so she can learn her food resources are safe from her sister.
> 
> Several water bowls around the house.
> 
> Ceiling high cat trees, or shelves leading safely up to tops of cupboards, so the cats can each have their own high up places to sit and snooze.
> 
> Plenty of cat beds so they can swap around where they sleep.
> 
> Lots of cat scratching posts and pads, several to every room, including one by every door so they can scent mark with their paws when they enter a room.
> 
> Your bed may be a source of competition between Maria and her sister as it will have your scent on quite intensely to a cat's nose. It would probably be better if you did not allow either cat to share the bed with you at night, so that source of competition is removed.
> 
> A bit of independence can help with self confidence. Maria might become less focused on competition in the home, if she had other things to focus on. You say she loves being outdoors, so she would possibly enjoy having access to your garden every day. Have you looked into having your garden fenced with cat proof fencing, so she could access it on her own through a cat flap from the house?
> 
> I've found it's not always straightforward resolving soiling issues, often it is not just one thing that is the answer. A combination of changes (or adaptations) in the home may be needed for the cat to feel less anxious, and this in turn may lead to the soiling ceasing. One has to turn 'detective', to try and solve the 'puzzle'.


It's interesting what you say about Maria's sister Tia. Tia has some quirky behaviour of her own when it comes to the cat litter. When I'm changing it she will jump in as soon as I take the old bag out, I have to remove her to put a new bag in and she jumps in again, I then have to remove her to put the paper down and she jumps in again, I then put the litter in and she always has to be the first to use the new cat litter. She is bigger than Maria and also occupies the top shelf of the cat tree with Maria not allowed up there, I had put this down to a "king of the castle" game. Maria tends to prefer the hammock part of the cat tree. Bizarrely though when taken outside Tia will cower and whine and will only have any confidence when put in the decking where she can shelter next to the pot plants. Whereas Maria is excitedly running and jumping after flies, and has also wanted to take me outside the garden to go explorethe outside. I don't let her but she would if she could.


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## chillminx

@Mariamousmummy -

From your description of how Tia behaves with the litter tray when you're changing it, it's apparent she's very possessive of that resource. Litter trays are very important resources to cats which is why it is important to have enough of them in a multi cat household.

High up places to sit are usually valued resources too, which is likely to be why Tia is possessive about the top shelf of the cat tree. Keeping the top shelf as her own spot won't be a game to her, but serious.

Can you buy another cat tree so Maria has the choice to use the top shelf too?

Is Tia possessive about you I wonder? One of my cats (Ben) who is very attached to me doesn't like his brother being made a fuss of by me. Ben will quite aggressively chase his brother away from me, if I don't stop stroking the brother. Humans are valued resources to cats, not only as providers of food and shelter, but also attention and affection.

A cat who is possessive about their resources is not necessarily a super confident cat. They may in fact be an insecure cat who is concerned there will be enough resources for her (food, water etc). To feel secure Tia needs to guard carefully the resources she has, probably not keen to share them with another cat in the home, even if the other cat is her sister. This is instinctive behaviour on her part, she is not being deliberately selfish. Unlike humans cats are not a species who naturally share their resources, other than when mother cats have kittens. By having several cats living in our homes we are asking them to do something unnatural in sharing resources.

Being possessive about resources and being scared or wary in unfamiliar places, such as outdoors are the same character traits. Both are aspects of a character that is not very confident.

As Tia gets frightened outdoors and evidently does not enjoy it, I see no reason to continue taking her out. Not all cats like going outdoors, and to make Tia do so against her will could be causing repercussions in the home, e.g. making Tia more possessive of her indoor resources to compensate for her fears in being taken outdoors.

So I would leave Tia home, where she is happiest and just take Maria out, as she evidently loves it.  . Also a bit of time for Maria to have you to herself every day outdoors will be good for her.


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## Mariamousmummy

chillminx said:


> @Mariamousmummy -
> 
> From your description of how Tia behaves with the litter tray when you're changing it, it's apparent she's very possessive of that resource. Litter trays are very important resources to cats which is why it is important to have enough of them in a multi cat household.
> 
> High up places to sit are usually valued resources too, which is likely to be why Tia is possessive about the top shelf of the cat tree. Keeping the top shelf as her own spot won't be a game to her, but serious.
> 
> Can you buy another cat tree so Maria has the choice to use the top shelf too?
> 
> Is Tia possessive about you I wonder? One of my cats (Ben) who is very attached to me doesn't like his brother being made a fuss of by me. Ben will quite aggressively chase his brother away from me, if I don't stop stroking the brother. Humans are valued resources to cats, not only as providers of food and shelter, but also attention and affection.
> 
> A cat who is possessive about their resources is not necessarily a super confident cat. They may in fact be an insecure cat who is concerned there will be enough resources for her (food, water etc). To feel secure Tia needs to guard carefully the resources she has, probably not keen to share them with another cat in the home, even if the other cat is her sister. This is instinctive behaviour on her part, she is not being deliberately selfish. Unlike humans cats are not a species who naturally share their resources, other than when mother cats have kittens. By having several cats living in our homes we are asking them to do something unnatural in sharing resources.
> 
> Being possessive about resources and being scared or wary in unfamiliar places, such as outdoors are the same character traits. Both are aspects of a character that is not very confident.
> 
> As Tia gets frightened outdoors and evidently does not enjoy it, I see no reason to continue taking her out. Not all cats like going outdoors, and to make Tia do so against her will could be causing repercussions in the home, e.g. making Tia more possessive of her indoor resources to compensate for her fears in being taken outdoors.
> 
> So I would leave Tia home, where she is happiest and just take Maria out, as she evidently loves it.  . Also a bit of time for Maria to have you to herself every day outdoors will be good for her.


Hi. I think you make some good points. I'm trying to find a 2nd hand cat tree. I've taken Maria out on her own and tia reacted by going crazy, screaming at the windows. So in the end I got my mum to bring her out and she just happily sat on the decking. Now that I think about it tia's dominance has been going on since we got them. Tia would push Maria out of the food bowl making me worried about Maria so I would give her some kitten milk out of sight of tia to feed her up. Tia also dominates with the toys. If Maria and tia are playing with separate toys tia will abandon her toy and go take maria's, if I then give Maria another toy tia will leave the toy she's just taken and go after maria's new toy.
I give them tons of love but have been trying to give tia extra one on one time to build her confidence. I'm not sure how else to do this?


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## chillminx

Mariamousmummy said:


> Hi. I think you make some good points. I'm trying to find a 2nd hand cat tree. I've taken Maria out on her own and tia reacted by going crazy, screaming at the windows. So in the end I got my mum to bring her out and she just happily sat on the decking. Now that I think about it tia's dominance has been going on since we got them. Tia would push Maria out of the food bowl making me worried about Maria so I would give her some kitten milk out of sight of tia to feed her up. Tia also dominates with the toys. If Maria and tia are playing with separate toys tia will abandon her toy and go take maria's, if I then give Maria another toy tia will leave the toy she's just taken and go after maria's new toy.
> I give them tons of love but have been trying to give tia extra one on one time to build her confidence. I'm not sure how else to do this?


It was a good move when you began feeding Tia and Maria out of sight of each other when they were kittens. That was the right way to go. I hope they still have their have separate feeding stations? These should be at least 10 ft apart and out of sight of each other. Perhaps feed them in separate rooms from now on, or if in the same room then at different heights, e.g. Tia on the floor and Maria on a worktop or table on the other side of the room.

Never allow them to share each other's food bowls and if there is any attempt to take food from each other, buy them both their own Microchip feeders. They are not cheap but worth every penny for keeping food resources safe in multi-cat households.

https://fetch.co.uk/surefeed-microchip-pet-feeder-296478011

It is becoming evident from what you say it is Tia who feels insecure and doesn't want to share the resources. This kind of situation is not always easy to resolve. Increasing the resources a great deal may help, but also you will need to try and reassure both cats constantly. Tia needs a lot of reassuring there is plenty of everything for her. Are you able to feed her every time she asks, without her becoming overweight do you think? (just a little snack between meals would work). Also, always serve her meals before you serve Maria.

Other resources to increase are the following :

Litter trays - increase to 4 and spread them around the home. This is vital. Litter trays are valued resources to cats and Tia needs to feel she has enough of them. I am beginning to suspect Tia may be subtly blocking Maria from using the trays sometimes. If Maria is denied access to the litter trays then she has to go somewhere else to pee! 

Water bowls - increase to 3 and spread them around the home

You can't have too many scratch posts and scratch pads. Increase to several in every room, and place one by every door.

I have this one in every room of my house, and it's very popular (as well as being a good price)

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/scratching_posts/scratching_posts/33681

and I have one of these in every room:

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/scratching_posts/scratching_pads/scratching_mat/280459

and a couple of these in every room :

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/scratching_posts/scratching_pads/scratching_mat/101907

If your cats like to sleep in cat beds, increase those too, and spread them around. Cats like to swap around where they sleep and if there is a choice of places there is less competition.

I was interested to hear that Tia got upset when she was left indoors while Maria was taken out! That was a useful experiment and goes to show how much it matters to Tia to be included in everything, even if it is something she doesn't much like much, such as going outside!

It turns out Tia is more worried about Maria getting something Tia is not getting, and so Tia is willing to go outside to make sure Maria is not being favoured! Cat behaviour is so fascinating!


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## TwoStrings

Hi all, thanks for this brilliant thread - really useful. I've read through the original post but I'm still a bit confused by my cat's behaviour so I'm hoping for some advice! 

Background: we adopted Kubo two weeks ago from a rescue. He's 11 years old, and had previously lived in one room of a house because he was afraid of the dogs in the rest of the house. He was neutered two weeks ago. For the first few days he was here, he was totally fine, happy, purring, using his litter tray as normal. Then he had a bad reaction to the dry food we gave him and had some vomiting and diarrhoea. After cutting out the dry food that stopped, but his poo is still soft and stinky. I don't know if this is causing stress that may explain his sudden weird behaviour. 

Anyway here's the issue: he is happily using the litter tray for poo and some of his wee, BUT since yesterday he has gone crazy for peeing in random places. In the last 48 hours he has peed on: 2 cushions, a sofa, a draught excluder, a doormat, a DVD shelf (RIP my Star Wars box set) and a plastic bag of clean litter. 

In response I have: cleaned all the affected areas with enzyme cleaner to get rid of the scent, added a 2nd litter tray in another room, and bought a calming plug-in thingy. Both litter trays are nice and clean - I scoop after each use and did a full refresh yesterday. 

He has continued to use his original litter box for poo and for selected pee throughout, but just keeps peeing elsewhere too. He's squatting to pee, not spraying, and it's a fair amount of wee each time. He hasn't repeat marked a spot and is insteaf choosing a new place every time. He also seems down in the dumps - not the happy friendly little chap we brought home 2 weeks ago.

There seems to be no logic to his wee choices so I'm at a loss as to what to do next. We're taking him over to the rescue on Monday for his 2nd set of jabs so will ask their advice too but I'm finding it very difficult to be in the house with him because I'm constantly on edge waiting to see where he pees next. The house is in turmoil as I try to clean up after him which is almost certainly going to stress him out more, but I've had to move some furniture to clean thoroughly.

Any ideas on what's up? I wondered if he was feeling ill from his food, as his poo hasn't been normal for over a week...could that cause stress peeing? Thanks for any advice. I just want him to feel relaxed enough to not want to mark everything.


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## chillminx

Hi @TwoStrings and welcome. 

The first thing is you need to confine him to one room whilst he has this problem, or possibly two rooms if they have hard floors and no soft furnishings or beds in them. The purpose of this is to contain the problem. In his room he should have at least 2 large open trays located in different parts of the room away from each other so he has 2 separate toilets. And away from his food.

It sounds as though he is in a lot of discomfort and that is why he keeps going from place to place to pee. He associates the litter tray with pain and keeps hoping to find a place to pee where it does not hurt, bless him. He needs to see the vet a.s.a.p. for some pain relief (e.g Metacam)

It is possible he has a UTI, so you need to get an urinalysis done whilst at the vet to check for that. If there is no UTI he could have cystitis which could be caused by possible stones in his bladder. It would need a ultrasound scan to diagnose them.

Please, please don't feed him any more dry food, of any make. Any cat with bladder issues such as his, needs to be on a 100% wet food diet permanently to protect his kidneys and prevent him getting stones in his bladder. If you need suggestions for affordable, good quality wet foods I am happy to advise. 

Also if you can add to his fluid intake it will help flush through his bladder. Add a little water to his wet meals. And try him wth home made chicken broth (made from cooking drumsticks in water). Make in bulk, then freeze it in ice cube trays and defrost a couple of cubes and warm it at least twice a day.

The fact he has had diarrhoea and still has a soft stool could also be a reason for him to avoid using the tray for peeing in. Cats usually like to have separate trays for peeing and pooing. If he has already used both trays for pooing in, then he is left with nowhere 'clean' to pee. I put the word "clean" in quotes advisedly, because I am speaking in cat terms not human terms. I am sure you're scooping the poo out promptly and keeping the trays clean, but it is best to also to change the entire litter and wash the trays in hot soapy water once they have been used for diarrhoea. The smell of the diarrhoea clings to the litter, and for a cat (whose sense of smell is around a thousand times more sensitive than a human's) the trays must smell overpoweringly and abnormally of faeces. A cat would instinctively avoid peeing there because of the hygiene risk to himself.

For the moment while he has the soft poo, to avoid wasting a lot of litter I would provide 3 trays, use a clumping litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus and put enough in the trays to cover the bottom of the tray e.g. perhaps an inch deep. When a tray has had diarrhoea in it, or a smelly soft stool, bin all the litter, wash the tray and put fresh litter in.

To firm up the soft stool feed him plain home cooked chicken drumsticks for a couple of days. Once the stool firms up, gradually reintroduce a wet food that you know he is OK with. No dry food at all.

He might also benefit from a calming remedy. Pet Remedy plug in diffuser is a good one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pet-Remedy...500495643&sr=1-1&keywords=pet+remedy+diffuser

Please let us know how things go. Thanks.


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## TwoStrings

Hi @chillminx, thanks so much for your reply! I bought the Pet Remedy diffuser earlier today so I'm really glad you'd recommend it! I hope it helps.

I hadn't considered him avoiding his litter box as he has used it for wee as well over the last two days so I assumed it must be something else! I will definitely clean both trays out thoroughly after a soft poo now rather than just scooping. I didn't realise that would make a difference, poor boy. He's actually not used the 2nd tray at all yet but I hope he will once he's used to it.

Because of the house size and layout (Victorian terrace with silly arches instead of doors) it will be tricky to confine him to one room but I'll give it a go and I'll put both his trays in there (it's too small for 3 trays and his food and bed). I'm a bit wary of changing the litter type because he's apparently been used to wood pellets - do you think changing it would stress him out? I guess I could do one tray of each so he has options?

I'd be really grateful for wet food suggestions - we don't actually know what he's ok with! At his old home they think he had Kit e Kat which I can't find anywhere but the rescue said he wasn't fussy when I asked what they were feeding him. I'll ask again on Monday. He's eating plenty though so that's good. I'll add some water to it too but he has been drinking from his bowl too. He's definitely off dry food for good now! I feel terrible for making him sick. Poor little guy.

Thanks so much again for your help. I'll let you know how we get on.


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## Mariamousmummy

chillminx said:


> It was a good move when you began feeding Tia and Maria out of sight of each other when they were kittens. That was the right way to go. I hope they still have their have separate feeding stations? These should be at least 10 ft apart and out of sight of each other. Perhaps feed them in separate rooms from now on, or if in the same room then at different heights, e.g. Tia on the floor and Maria on a worktop or table on the other side of the room.
> 
> Never allow them to share each other's food bowls and if there is any attempt to take food from each other, buy them both their own Microchip feeders. They are not cheap but worth every penny for keeping food resources safe in multi-cat households.
> 
> https://fetch.co.uk/surefeed-microchip-pet-feeder-296478011
> 
> It is becoming evident from what you say it is Tia who feels insecure and doesn't want to share the resources. This kind of situation is not always easy to resolve. Increasing the resources a great deal may help, but also you will need to try and reassure both cats constantly. Tia needs a lot of reassuring there is plenty of everything for her. Are you able to feed her every time she asks, without her becoming overweight do you think? (just a little snack between meals would work). Also, always serve her meals before you serve Maria.
> 
> Other resources to increase are the following :
> 
> Litter trays - increase to 4 and spread them around the home. This is vital. Litter trays are valued resources to cats and Tia needs to feel she has enough of them. I am beginning to suspect Tia may be subtly blocking Maria from using the trays sometimes. If Maria is denied access to the litter trays then she has to go somewhere else to pee!
> 
> Water bowls - increase to 3 and spread them around the home
> 
> You can't have too many scratch posts and scratch pads. Increase to several in every room, and place one by every door.
> 
> I have this one in every room of my house, and it's very popular (as well as being a good price)
> 
> http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/scratching_posts/scratching_posts/33681
> 
> and I have one of these in every room:
> 
> http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/scratching_posts/scratching_pads/scratching_mat/280459
> 
> and a couple of these in every room :
> 
> http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/scratching_posts/scratching_pads/scratching_mat/101907
> 
> If your cats like to sleep in cat beds, increase those too, and spread them around. Cats like to swap around where they sleep and if there is a choice of places there is less competition.
> 
> I was interested to hear that Tia got upset when she was left indoors while Maria was taken out! That was a useful experiment and goes to show how much it matters to Tia to be included in everything, even if it is something she doesn't much like much, such as going outside!
> 
> It turns out Tia is more worried about Maria getting something Tia is not getting, and so Tia is willing to go outside to make sure Maria is not being favoured! Cat behaviour is so fascinating!


Hi, here's an update. I've increased the number of cat litters from 2 to 4 and feed both cats separately. But ive since caught Tia doing something very worrying. I saw Maria had gone into the cat litter and Tia as soon as she heard her in there came running up and started prowling around the litter, as Maria came out of the litter door Tia raised her forearm and whacked Maria twice on the head! I've since caught Tia doing this again this morning. I don't know what to do? Last night Maria soiled my bed again and it seems that even with 4 litters Tia has still claimed possession of all of them? I've also increased the number of stracting posts in the house. I've started making sure that Tia gets special 1 on 1 cuddle and play time with me. I'm at my wits end! What can I do? Are these sisters going to be able to live together?


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## chillminx

Mariamousmummy said:


> Hi, here's an update. I've increased the number of cat litters from 2 to 4 and feed both cats separately. But ive since caught Tia doing something very worrying. I saw Maria had gone into the cat litter and Tia as soon as she heard her in there came running up and started prowling around the litter, as Maria came out of the litter door Tia raised her forearm and whacked Maria twice on the head! I've since caught Tia doing this again this morning. I don't know what to do? Last night Maria soiled my bed again and it seems that even with 4 litters Tia has still claimed possession of all of them? I've also increased the number of stracting posts in the house. I've started making sure that Tia gets special 1 on 1 cuddle and play time with me. I'm at my wits end! What can I do? Are these sisters going to be able to live together?


Oh dear, I am sorry to hear this!  It sounds as though my suspicions were correct that Tia is blocking Maria from the litter trays and hence poor Maria is having to find somewhere else to pee, bless her. Tia is evidently very possessive of the resources. To a cat litter trays are a valuable resource. There is always a risk that one cat will claim all the trays as theirs no matter how many trays one puts down.

I do have a solution for you, which I really hope you will be able to do. Basically Maria needs a tray of her own to which Tia has no access. Fortunately these days with the advent of microchip cat flaps this can be achieved. Maria's tray (or trays) need to be in a room that only she (not Tia) has access to. This can be any room in the house, but it must be a room where the door can be kept shut, or it won't work. Then you need to fit a microchip cat flap into the door and scan only Maria's chip in.

If you don't want to cut into the door you can buy an inexpensive hinged screen door and fit that in the doorway to open outward, the opposite way to the wooden door. If you fit a screen door it needs a catch to keep it closed. You can also fit one of those spring closures to the hinge side so it closes itself automatically after a human goes through, but is too heavy for a cat to push open. It will be easy to cut a hole in the screen door and fit the microchip flap. You will need to add an extra piece of wood across the screen door to attach the flap to.

This method ^^^ is by far and away the best. It takes a bit of setting up, but once it is operating you will get into a routine and I would expect it to put an end to Maria's soiling.

If for some reason it is out of the question for Maria to have her litter trays safely in one room out of bounds to Tia, you can operate a similar system using a litter tray cupboard. This is often less successful because e.g. although Tia would have no access to the cupboard through the microchip flap, she could still wait outside ready to chastise Maria when she comes out, and this could make Maria very reluctant to use the tray again. Hence she'd go back to soiling your bed.

Anyway this is the litter tray cupboard :

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/...er_boxes_nofilter/cat_litter_cupboards/608661

You would remove the existing flap and fit a microchip flap. But because the cupboard is quite dark inside you need to cut a large hole in the back of it and fit a piece of perspex over the hole so lots of light comes in. It is not that cats need light to pee and poo, but that cats being cautious creatures may not like entering dark enclosed spaces. Again only Maria's chip is scanned into the reader.

The cupboard itself can be placed anywhere in the home there is a suitable quiet spot for Maria to use it. Inside the cupboard you place an open tray.

I am assuming your cats are microchipped even though they are indoor cats. If they are not it is inexpensive to have them done and only Maria needs chipping. Also there is a disc that comes with the microchip flap, that is worn on a collar. But this might be a problem if Maria were to pull off the collar. Far better to have her microchipped if she she not already done.

The other possible drawback to the cupboard plan is that Maria simply may not like having to climb into a cupboard for her toilet. Depends on how easy she is to train. It may need time and patience.

Let me know what you think about my proposal, OK.


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## TwoStrings

Hi again, quick update on Kubo. He had explosive diarrhoea this morning so I took him to the vet who checked him out and thinks he's just got an upset belly from the change of diet and stress of relocating. She's given me some meds to settle the stomach. I've given him some cooked chicken drumstick with a bit of the broth which he wolfed down but his poor belly sent him running for the litter tray. I'll keep an eye on him over the next 24 hours. He's mostly been sleeping today.

I mentioned the peeing problem too, the vet thinks it's a combination of stress and having been neutered in the last 2 weeks - she thinks his hormones are still up and down. I'll keep an eye on that too and hope that between settling his belly and letting his hormones settle we should see an improvement. I will let you know! Thanks so much again.


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## chillminx

@TwoStrings - poor Kubo, I hope his tummy is soon better.

If cooked chicken is upsetting his bowel you can try him with poached white fish. I find that is very soothing for a cat's poorly tummy.


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## TwoStrings

Thanks @chillminx. The vet gave us a brown "intestinal care" paste and a syrup to protect the stomach but he's still got diarrhoea today. Any idea how soon we should expect to see a more normal stool after switching to plain chicken with the addition of those things? Sorry for all the questions - I've never had a cathought before so I'm really worried about doing something wrong Would you switch to fish at this point? Thanks again for the advice!


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## TwoStrings

TwoStrings said:


> Thanks @chillminx. The vet gave us a brown "intestinal care" paste and a syrup to protect the stomach but he's still got diarrhoea today. Any idea how soon we should expect to see a more normal stool after switching to plain chicken with the addition of those things? Sorry for all the questions - I've never had a cathought before so I'm really worried about doing something wrong Would you switch to fish at this point? Thanks again for the advice!


 Sorry, weird autocorrect - I've never had a CAT before!


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## chillminx

Hi @TwoStrings - can you tell me what the ingredients are in the "intestinal care" paste? And in the syrup to protect his tummy?

It would be fine to switch to poached white fish right away to see if he is better on that. Tesco's do a frozen bag of white fish in their Value range, which mine like.


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## TwoStrings

@chillminx the syrup is Kaogel - this stuff: https://www.medicanimal.com/Kaogel-VP/p/I9074299

I'm attaching a photo of the paste - it's called (rather vaguely) 'Intestinal Care 6-in-1'.

Thanks again for the advice. We'll try fish tomorrow.


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## TwoStrings

Slightly better photo attached this time!


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## chillminx

Thanks @TwoStrings 

The Kaogel contains kaolin which is a powerful ingredient for treating diarrhoea and usually firms up the stools within around 24 hrs.

Of the active ingredients in the Intestinal Care 6-in-1,

Diosmectite is a type of clay which is used as a bulking agent for the stools;

MOS-Beta Glucan is a type of fibre known as a prebiotic, found in e.g. oats, some types of mushroom etc.;

Enterococcus faecium is a probiotic, the same type used in Fortiflora. Fortiflora was the probiotic prescribed by my vet to treat one of my cats who was unwell with pure e-coli overgrowth when I adopted her. I started with a quarter of the recommended dose and it gave her diarrhoea. (she had no diarrhoea before starting the Fortiflora). I waited a week until the diarrhoea had gone and then I gave her about a tenth of the recommended dose, which gave her a loose stool. I gave it up and switched to a different make of probiotic, which helped her.

I used Bio Gaia drops which are for human babies so are very gentle. But may be too expensive if needed long term.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BioGaia-Pr...27605&sr=8-1&keywords=biogaia+baby+probiotics

Later I switched to Solaray Mightidophilus. I open the capsule and use only about one tenth of the powder at a time. Then close the capsule again for next time.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solaray-Mi...727908&sr=1-1&keywords=solaray+mightidophilus

IME prebiotics and some types of probiotic (or too much of both at a time) can actually cause diarrhoea in a sensitive gut, or in a gut that is already very inflamed. When the gut is inflamed I find that resting it as much as possible is the way to go. This means minimum intervention with treatments until things calm down. Then later, treatment for repopulating the bowel flora can be introduced.

Usually I prefer to rest the bowel by diet alone. Plain home cooked chicken is good and sometimes I find white fish even more effective. If this is not effective within 24 hrs I would add Kaogel for 24 hrs.

I have never known Kaogel not to be effective. In fact one has to be careful the stools don't firm up so much the cat becomes constipated. If there is still no improvement I would be wanting 3 days of stool samples tested at the lab for bacteria, viruses or parasites.


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## TwoStrings

That's amazing, thanks so much @chillminx! I really appreciate all your help! He's just had poached cod fillets today and it seems to be going down well - no diarrhoea so far. He seems more himself today too so I'll keep it up. Fingers crossed for firm poo tonight!


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## Mariamousmummy

Update for Chillminx and others about Maria and Tia. I increased the cat litters to 5 and as I wrote Tia was lying in wait to box Maria's ears when she used the cat litters. I was at my wits end but then there was an unusual development. .. Maria started asking me to take her to the litter. She would pester me until I accompanied her to the cat litter and stood over her while she went. Tia at first would lie in wait to catch Maria on her way out but when Tia saw me standing guard she would run off. So I had to go with Maria every time she wanted the loo, she even got me up 2x a night! After a few weeks with Tia no longer standing guard Maria started to be brave enough to go in her own and now she is using the litter al the time on her own! No more soiling the bed!


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## chillminx

@Mariamousmummy - that is absolutely brilliant!! I am so thrilled with the news! Well done! 

So often our cats do try hard to communicate to us what is wrong and what they need, if only we can understand what they are saying to us  I have found this to be so, again and again. 

What happened after we had talked in detail about it, is that you identified Maria's problem, i.e Tia was blocking her from using the trays. You then were able to understand Maria's behaviour better and because of that Maria sensed your support and sympathy. This in turn gave Maria the self confidence to ask you for help and protection when she went to use the litter tray.

I really can't tell you how pleased I am, for both Maria and you. And yet again it shows just how truly amazing our cats are! 

Best wishes to you. x


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## Bre

*I have a cat that is around 3 years old who is my boyfriends cat and my baby who is using the bathroom (mostly pooping) outside of the litter pan. We recently rescues a 6-week old (at the time) kitten back on May 25th but after taking her to the vet we learned that we needed to keep the kitten and our cat separate till she's at least 12 weeks old (so we could test her for FIV and lukemia and receive accurate results) and we did up until July 10 when she was due for her appointment and we got the tests done and results came back negative (finially they were able to meet each other after patiently waiting and playing through doors for over a month) and that following weekend (July 13-15) my boyfriend and I both went out of town to see our families and the cats were left alone (but I did have someone check on them, plus I was able to check in on them too) and every now and then there would be poop piles or pee spots when I'd Walk in. On July 25 I left home to go out of town for a week and so did my boyfriend (we hired someone to watch over the cats while we we're away but they did not do their job for the most part) I checked back in on them on July 28th and when I did there were 2 piles of poop on the floor (and pee probably soaked into the carpet) and it just smelled awful throughout the apartment. Throughout my time checking in on them every now and then each and every time there has been poop piles on the floor while I visited. Almost a week later since we've both been home and still every so many days we'll wake up to little surprises (every now and then I'll lose my temper and yell at her and spray her with water but it's just bcause it's so stressful and I'm running out of ideas at this point) also after cleaning out our living room we found our cats hide and piss spot and had to throw away a pile of things from where they were soaked in pee. I love them both very much and just want what's best and right for them and just want to figure out how to make things better or less stressful for our cat (because even before we had the kitten we had issues multiple times with her bathroom habits and we addressed one of the incidents by giving her a bigger pan, one by changing the litter, one by changing the location,etc. We've tried many things various different times but even when we had the kitten she was peeing where we had her locked up and we figured it was because she was stressed out,it was our fault,and the location probably threw her off. But out kitten on the other hand who is 100% once a stray never has issues and taught herself to use the pan)*


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## chillminx

Hello @Bre and welcome. 

Your poor cats sound unhappy kitties at present, perhaps from being left alone. If they were not properly cared by the cat sitter while you and your bf were away, they will have felt abandoned, which will have made them anxious, distressed, and this can lead to soiling the floor.

If you shout at the cats for soiling, or spray them with water, you are making the whole situation ten times worse, and the cats will be even more frightened than ever.  It's important to break the cycle of fear and soiling, by binning the water spray bottle, keeping yourself calm, and being kind to your cats by trying to see their point of view.

Cats are by nature very clean animals and if they are not using their litter trays it is because they are distressed about something, which needs putting right for them.

First, please... I beg you....if you are going to be away from home in future for more than 12 hours always employ a professional cat sitter. Either one who calls in twice a day to feed the cats, change litter trays and reassure them, or get a professional cat sitter to move into your apartment while you are away. The cost will be about £20 a day, and surely worth every penny for the peace of mind and the sake of your cats' wellbeing.

Your vet can recommend a reputable and reliable cat sitter. Plan well ahead of time if you are going away, as the best cat sitters get booked up, especially at holiday times.

If you don't feel you want a cat sitter, then put your cats in a good cattery whilst you are away. Again, ask your vet for recommendations.

I am assuming your cats are indoor cats? If so the absolute bare minimum of litter trays for them has to be 3 trays. These should be large, open trays, spread around the home, not grouped together in one place such as the bathroom. Personally as your older cat sounds as though she has lost faith in the litter trays I would provide at least 4 trays. And as I say, spread them around.

Next, you need to use a good quality cat litter that is fine textured like sand. One that is not dusty (bad for the cats' lungs) and one that absorbs smells effectively. I recommend you use Cats Best Oko Plus :

https://fetch.co.uk/oko-plus-cats-b...omRZwTooEEIv8z1q5AV7AP5C7T8mAiAcaAtJ0EALw_wcB

or a similar type such as Maizy

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maizy-Cat-...d=1502189787&sr=8-1&keywords=maizy+cat+litter

They are more expensive to buy than cheap supermarket litters but are much more economical to use, so will cost less overall as there will be less wastage than with a cheaper litter.

More importantly, your cats will like using these kind of litters, and that is going to be half the battle when you have cats who are house soiling. if you don't give them a litter they like to use, you are unlikely to retrain them to use the litter trays.

Fill each of the 4 litter trays to a depth of at least 2.5 inches (7 cms). Cats like to be able to dig before they poo or pee, and some (not all) like to bury it afterwards.

Litter trays must be kept clean to encourage your cats to use them, so scoop the poo a.s.a.p, after deposited. Scoop the pee twice a day. This must be your daily routine.

If you find pee on the floor mop it up with paper towel and put the wet towel in one the litter trays for a while. Likewise if you find poo on the floor - put it in a litter tray. Say nothing to your cats, do not tell them off or react in any negative way.

If the poo is soft, not formed and firm like 'sausages' then the poo is not normal. A loose bowel can cause a cat to avoid the litter tray. If the cat is straining with constipation that can also cause them to avoid the litter tray.

Have both your cats been wormed recently?

As your cats are urinating on the floor then it may be that one or both of them has cystitis. The older cat may have a urinary tract infection. Have you had her checked at the vet for that?

Cystitis can be stress related. Feeding dry food can make it worse. So feed your cats a wet food diet only. No dry food. If money is an issue there are plenty of inexpensive cat foods on the market, which will be much healthier for your cats than any dry food.

Have a look at the supermarket's own makes of wet food, e.,g. Sainsburys, Asda, Tesco, Morrisons. Or there is Butchers Classic cat food in cans. (note - be aware Butchers contains a lot of jelly, so you will need to feed plenty of Butchers to give the cats the protein they need.)

Dry food is not good for cats' kidneys or bladders, and not great for their bowel either.

A cat with any kind of bladder problem, such as soiling in the home, must always be fed a wet food diet.

The kitten will need feeding 4 or 5 times a day. If you are out all day you can leave meals in autofeeders, timed to open during the day. They are not expensive to buy from amazon. For two cats you will need 2 autofeeders (4 meals).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Cats/Mat...id=1502190947&sr=1-3&keywords=auto+feeder+cat

Feed the two cats in two separate places, not near each other. You can feed one on the floor say, and one on a worktop at the other side of the room. Never allow them to share bowls or steal each other's food.

Are your cat and kitten getting along OK? There should no hissing or growling, no bullying. If they chase it should be an equal game, not one picking on the other.

If the cat and kitten are OK together I advise shutting them in one room at night, with their food, water bowls, litter trays, and cosy beds (beds off the floor). Keep litter trays well away from food dishes. Choose a room that is medium size, not a bathroom or a utility room. Perhaps the kitchen if you have made everything safe there for the kitten. Do not allow them into rooms with beds or soft furnishings at night until you have solved the soiling problems.

Please come back and let me know how you get on, once you have tried the above. I am very happy to help with further suggestions.

Good luck


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## Bre

When we we're away we trusted a family member (this family member is on my side and has kids and a life of their own) we truly did not see the point in trying anything else since they already had a key to the apartment and lived right by us.

Each time I stopped in we didn't just stop and go we actually took time and played with them, made sure they had plenty of everything,and we're happy before leaving.

When I was growing up we had 4 cats who all ate the same food and used the same litter pan so ultimately that's what I'm trying to do as an end result for things to be more cost effective and convenient in the end as well.

Both my cats are indoor Kitty's (after rescuing a stray) We can not have anything more than maybe 2 litter pans throughout the apartment due to it being an apartment and more on the smaller side (it's just very inconvenient and can smell way worse than it already does quickly and the only acceptable options would be places where the wood flooring is vs the carpet). Currently we have 1 larger pan out and it's in the kitchen but for a while (first couple of weeks of the cats meeting one another) we has 2 set up (the one in the kitchen and one in the laundry room) However only one pan was used strictly for pee and the other for poop so we no longer saw the point of keeping both and cut it down to one. The laundry room has been both cats "room" at some point or another. That is where our cat is originally used to using the box (that is until we got a kitten and things got hetic and changed) The laundry room has actually been just a room for a couple months now because our dryer broke a while back and we we're kinda just out of having a washer and dryer in that time (until just over the weekend when we got a new dryer and it's now a laundry room again) which is where I was planning to make the "cat area" again all in good time after cleaning things up.

My cats seem to like the litter they already have fine (my kitten uses the larger pan as a sandbox 1/2 the time) my kitten is really good about using the pan and covering her business as for my cat she will still use the pan at times while all this is going on but will not cover her poop anymore for some reason. Our cats poop does seem to have an unusual texture and has also had blood in it lately, but we are planning to take her to the vet latter when we have the extra money to make sure all is okay.

Both my cats are completely up to date on everything they need to be and are also on prevention gel/dip as well (so they won't get worms of any kind,fleas,etc.) My kitten does not have any issues with her "bathroom habits" also, my cat will NOT eat wet food (she does not like it at all) we have tried before she'd rather just eat her dry food (which I also have an issue of them not eating their own foods (my kitten is on kitten food and my cat on cat food. They will both eat the food but not their own 1/2 the time)

My vet has told me now that my kitten is over 12-weeks old that she can be put on a regular diet (eating when foods available) vs being on a set schedule (timed eating multiple times a day) as long as she eats kitten food still and occasionally wet food (if there are issues with the dry food, which there are not) They both get fed the same amount and at the same times each day but also their food sits out all day so they can have it when they want (because neither cat needs to be put on a diet due to neither cat being overweight) I am going to try to feed them more separate from now on but we'll see have that goes because their food can't just stay laid out in that area (like I said ultimately I'd like to be able to have them in one area for all their stuff) but not locked in a room.

At first I figured they were both bullying each other but they do not his at one another and seem to both be playing with one another and it's all fair game.

I do not enjoy locking them up at night (especially when they were both used to being locked up for over a month and hated ever second of it) I'd rather just give them free access to the house including our bedroom (because it seems to make them happier) because we've NEVER had the issue of the cats using the bathroom in our bedroom and our cat is used to sleeping in bed with us but it's a pick and choose thing as for the kitten shell sleep in the bed occasionally but will usually just be near in the room. Neither of them have beds but they both do have their own blankets (both prefer microfiber over a cat bed) we've tried the cat beds thing, but they did not enjoy it or use them.


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## chillminx

@Bre
\
The cats need to have their own separate microchip feeders so they do not eat each others food.

If there is blood in your cat's stool then either her diet is not suiting her, or else she has a bowel infection or virus. It needs resolving a.s.a.p.

Any cat can be transferred to a wet food diet with kindness and patience. I have done it loads of times with rescued cats, who came to me seriously addicted to dry food (and sometimes with chronic diarrhoea). Their health improved hugely once I got them off the dry food.

if your cat has loose stools, blood in the stools, or any bowel issues at all, that is the main reason she is pooing on the floor. It is what cats may do when they have a bowel problem. You are not going to resolve the soiling until you change her diet or get her treated if she has a bowel infection.

I have explained in detail why cats need more than one litter tray, so I wont go through it again. One litter tray between two cats is just not enough. The fact you had 4 cats growing up who all used one litter tray is not relevant. Cats are all individuals, all with different needs. As owners we have a moral duty to do our best to meet those needs. It is not what is convenient for the owner, but what the cat needs to feel contented so they can exhibit normal cat behaviour.

You have a cat with an upset, possibly inflamed bowel (with blood in stool) who has shown you she dislikes sharing a tray. You really do need to try and meet her toilet needs for there to be any improvement in the situation.

I've given you good advice to help resolve your house soiling issues. It is advice that has been tried and tested, and has been effective in dozens of cases.

If you are willing to work with me, we stand a chance of being able to resolve your house soiling problem. I can't say fairer than that can I ?


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## Kathy69

I have a Persian who is now 10 years old, always used her litter tray about February, March time 2017 she peed by the front door on the wooden floor, tried everything to clean it then kept her away. she continued to use her tray she then decided to pee by my patio doors this is now a day to day constant struggle, she will use tray to poo not to pee, I was told by vets to put down puppy pads but this has now just trained her to go there, I have bought a new litter tray, changed the litter hated them all and would not use them. had a her sample tested no urine problems then today she decided to now have a pee on the wooden floor in the lounge. I have a feliway plugin, calm treats nothing is working whatsoever. My cat who had the run of the house will now have to be confined tot he dining area when there is no one at home. I have spoken to a cat behavioural therapist who told me to lock her in a cage for two weeks with her food and litter tray. This is something I will not do as I feel this will really stress her out. There must be something that can help


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## chillminx

Hi @Kathy69 and welcome. 

I think the advice to shut your cat in a cage for 2 weeks with her food and tray is a bit OTT at the moment, before all else has been tried. As a last resort it can work for certain cats, but usually it works for cats who do not understand what the litter tray is for. This does not apply to your cat as she knows very well what the tray is for , as she uses it every day, or has done until recently.

She has stopped using the tray for pee because something about it is upsetting her, doesn't feel right. You have ruled out a possible UTI, although it is possible she has a bit of cystitis. Have there been any recent changes in the home that could have caused her stress? Leading to stress related cystitis possibly...If you think she could possibly be stressed about anything it may help to give her a course of Zylkene in her food. It is very calming and can sometimes help resolve soiling issues, along with certain behaviour modification techniques which I shall explain below. 

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/searchterm?searchTerm=zylkene+for+cats

Is your cat an only cat? Does she have at least two litter trays in the house? Are they spread out, and not right next to each other? It is natural behaviour for cats to pee and poo in different places, as that is what they would do if they were to toilet outdoors. So it needs to be replicated indoors with the right number of litter trays. The fact she may have managed with less than enough trays up until now just means that she has tried to adapt and now no longer feels able to. It may be to do with her age perhaps.

As she is now on the threshold of her senior years I would give her 3 trays in fact. I have always done this with my older cats, to help them out and have located them near places where they tend to spend most time in the house.

Your cat herself will decide which tray she wants to poo in, and which to pee in and her preference may change from day to day.

If you are providing covered trays make sure they're tall enough for an adult cat to squat upright comfortably as they do when defecating. i.e. at least 46 cm high. Any lower can cause the cat to have to stoop and may make them lose their balance.

Also remove door flaps from covered trays as cats feel vulnerable when defecating and hate not to be able to see out of the door.

The best litter for cats is one that closely mimics sand because that is what the ancestors of our domestic cats would have used for toilet (being desert cats). So a fine granular litter which clumps well is best. e.g. Cats Best Oko Plus or Worlds Best. (Cats Best is made from fir trees, Worlds Best is made from corn kernels).

Some of the quality clumping clay litters are liked by cats because they are fine granules, but the cheap makes are dusty and very bad for the cats lungs if used In covered trays. Some cheap granule litters such as Catsan are nasty and sharp for soft paws to stand on.

I would not use any litter for her that is pellet like, as she may have problems balancing on it.

Another thing to bear in mind with a 10yr old cat is she may have a bit of arthritis (very common in older cats) which if so would be making her joints stiff and perhaps harder for her to balance on the litter when squatting to defecate. It may be helpful with the fine grain litter not to put too much in the tray, maybe cover the bottom of the tray to say 1 inch, so she can balance without sliding about.

Once you have enough trays spread around, if she pees on the floor, do not react, say nothing to her, just mop it up with kitchen paper towel and place the wet paper in one of her trays.
This is so that she realises you have given her extra trays.

Clean urine stains with an enzyme cleaner. One of the best is Bio Tex stain remover, but a solution of Bio Laundry liquid is fine. Scrub hard floors thoroughly to remove any trace of odour, or she will go back and pee there again.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_7?url=search-alias=kitchen&field-keywords=bio+tex&sprefix=bio+tex,aps,130&crid=35OE77DFUF6SU

Any cat who has a bladder issue needs to be on a wet food diet. So remove all dry food from her diet. A wet food diet will ensure she is getting all the fluids she needs with her food. It will increase the volume of her urine, making it more dilute, more comfortable to pass. And she will pee more often so her bladder is flushed through of any sludge that might be sitting there (i.e sludge that can form into crystals). A wet food diet is also very important for a cat of her age, to protect her kidneys.

Incidentally, did the vet carry out a blood test recently to see whether her kidney function level is normal?

Please let us know how things go when you have been able to instigate the changes. Thanks.


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## Kathy69

HI Chilliminx,

Thank you so much for replying to my post.

Tiff only has the one tray I put out two and she just skirted around it. I have covered the area as told with a scratch pad and toys which she peed on. 
I don't think it is arthritis as she has no problem jumping up on chairs and the bed. Her urine was tested and came back clear. Nothing has change at home for her to be stressed. 
I never chastise her I just clean up the area with bio liquid dry the area then spray lemon grass oil mixed with water and bicarbs, I then just put the puppy pad down as she will just pee on the floor.
I did tonight put a pad in her litter tray and she used this to pee on rather than litter.
I have tried numerous different litters including a fine clay she does not like it, and the sad thing is I now have to keep her on one area when we are not home.
I am going to get another tray and try this again.
I have tried the zylkene again this has not worked.
I did mention to my husband to get her bloods done.
It was also mentioned that this could be seasonal but I have never heard of this.
Tiff is a home cat she will only go into the garden if nice out and we are at home.
Here food consists of royal canin for sensitive stomachs and gourmet wet food but she will only eat the seafood pate and this she will only eat a teaspoon a day and no more, she has plenty of water.
I will look into your advice and give some of these a go with the hope they work and keep you posted, thank you so much for helping.


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## chillminx

Good idea to get another tray. It is important to locate it away from the other tray, so there are two separate toiletting areas. If the trays are next to each other Tiff will regard it as just one toilet.

I am interested she refuses to use most or all of the fine granule litters you've tried her with. When cats do that it can be because they have cystitis and they associate all types of litter with pain. So they avoid the tray when they pee. If she is refusing to use any type of litter I suspect she is uncomfortable.

Does she always use the puppy pad in the tray? ? Try putting a puppy pad in the second tray with a very small amount of a soft granular cat litter on top. If she is Ok with this you can gradually increase the amount of litter. 

Can you take her off the RC dry food and just feed her wet food. It sounds as though most of her diet is dry food, and I am concerned she is not getting enough fluids and this is leading to discomfort in her bladder. In which case she will continue to avoid peeing in the trays no matter what changes are made.


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## Kathy69

chillminx said:


> Good idea to get another tray. It is important to locate it away from the other tray, so there are two separate toiletting areas. If the trays are next to each other Tiff will regard it as just one toilet.
> 
> I am interested she refuses to use most or all of the fine granule litters you've tried her with. When cats do that it can be because they have cystitis and they associate all types of litter with pain. So they avoid the tray when they pee. If she is refusing to use any type of litter I suspect she is uncomfortable.
> 
> Does she always use the puppy pad in the tray? ? Try putting a puppy pad in the second tray with a very small amount of a soft granular cat litter on top. If she is Ok with this you can gradually increase the amount of litter.
> 
> Can you take her off the RC dry food and just feed her wet food. It sounds as though most of her diet is dry food, and I am concerned she is not getting enough fluids and this is leading to discomfort in her bladder. In which case she will continue to avoid peeing in the trays no matter what changes are made.


Hi


chillminx said:


> Good idea to get another tray. It is important to locate it away from the other tray, so there are two separate toiletting areas. If the trays are next to each other Tiff will regard it as just one toilet.
> 
> I am interested she refuses to use most or all of the fine granule litters you've tried her with. When cats do that it can be because they have cystitis and they associate all types of litter with pain. So they avoid the tray when they pee. If she is refusing to use any type of litter I suspect she is uncomfortable.
> 
> Does she always use the puppy pad in the tray? ? Try putting a puppy pad in the second tray with a very small amount of a soft granular cat litter on top. If she is Ok with this you can gradually increase the amount of litter.
> 
> Can you take her off the RC dry food and just feed her wet food. It sounds as though most of her diet is dry food, and I am concerned she is not getting enough fluids and this is leading to discomfort in her bladder. In which case she will continue to avoid peeing in the trays no matter what changes are made.


Hi Chilliminx,
Absolutely heartbroken i went to.work yeterday Tiff was good purring away i bought her a new scratchpad and kitter tray.
Came home put the scratch pad together she did her usual pee on the pad. I pick her up for a cuddle and to put her on her new toy she collapsed in my arms. I rushed her to the vets strugglinv to breathe they found a mass and she did not survive the night.
All the symptons of being told its behaviour, seasonal etc were wrong. Ky little princess was so ill yet the vets did not even spot this.
Heartbroken does not come close, my home feels so empty without her.
So for anyone who has this problem.with their cat please make sure you insist they are thouroghly tested.


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## chillminx

Kathy, I am very, very sorry to hear this awful news. You must be devastated. Poor little Tiff, bless her. 

I had assumed, like you had, the vet had ruled out a physical cause for Tiff avoiding her litter tray. But without a scan or an x-ray a tumour may not be apparent to a vet. Symptoms of tumours are not always obvious. 

I am so sorry. You did the best you could for her, and you were trying to resolve the litter tray problem, so she would have known you cared about her. 

Thinking of you with much sympathy. 

RIP beloved Tiff xx


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## Lozza44

Hi
I’m new to this forum so Hi

We have two rescue cats (brother and sister, Monty and Willow) who we got on Boxing day last year. They recently turned 1 year old. Around March time we went through a phase of Monty pee’ing on our bed, in particular right next to me (once even on me while I was sleeping). He usually finds his way under the duvet and pees in the bed! It was always first thing in the morning. His sister has always been very attached to me and at that point particularly so and it occurred that he may have been trying to mark his territory with me. We we got his urine checked (all ok) and then did some research. I made sure to spend lots of time with him, we increased the number of litter trays (we now have 3, one of which is in our bedroom and all trays are kept as clean as possible, no changes have been made to the litter we use either), we got Feliway diffusers (one on each floor) and put him on Zylkene. It eventually stopped and things went back to normal. We kept up with everything we had been doing and then a couple of months ago he started again but this time on my husband’s side (Monty favours my husband and Willow favours me).

The cat’s either wake us up in the morning or come in as soon as our alarm goes off. It’s almost as if, if we don’t wake and get up immediately he panics and pees. After he started on my husband’s side of the bed, we must have been subconsciously on high alert as as soon as they woke us, we would shut them out of the bedroom until we got up. Again eventually he stopped.

A couple of weeks ago he did it once then stopped and this morning when I woke, he was scratching the covers (which he does after he pees) so my husband got straight up and felt the bed and there was nothing. It wasn’t until I got up a short while later that we realised he had peed right beside me.

I just don’t know what to do. There is only the two of us in the house, no other pets and they have a very relaxed life (they are house cats) but they are both quite jumpy, anxious cats.

We are going away this weekend for the first time since we got them and because they are nervous cats, we decided against putting them in the cattery yet and my Mum is going to go in morning and night and do everything we would normally do. I’m worried about leaving them.

The main thing is the peeing though. He doesn’t do it anywhere else in the house. The two cats get on fine most of the time – they have the usual bouts of pouncing on each other but there is never any hissing or signs that they are really fighting. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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## chillminx

Hello @Lozza44 and welcome 

Cats who have grown up together and share a home do not have to be fighting for there to be territorial issues between them. Adult cats do not always find it easy to share resources even when they have grown up together.

Cats are solitary hunters and when they catch their 'prey' they don't share it with other adult cats. Your two are reaching the stage where they are approaching adulthood and feelings of needing to protect resources become stronger.

I assume both cats have been neutered btw?

There may be no apparent negative interactions between the two cats, but feelings of insecurity can be manifested as behaviour such as house soiling/scent marking with urine.

Cats are a very scent-driven species and the scent receptors in their noses are several hundred times more sensitive than those in the human nose. A human's bed has a very strong scent to a cat and it's the place where an insecure cat might be drawn to mix their own scent with that of their special human(s). It is possible that Monty feels a strong urge to mark your bed to comfort himself when he feels anxious. He may even have intermittent-stress related cystitis, i.e. a combination of cystitis plus an urge to scent mark your bed.

For the immediate future I strongly recommend you shut the cats out of the bedroom. Either shut them out until you get up and the bed is made, or shut them out all the time. For the moment.

If you decide to allow them access to your bedroom in the daytime I recommend you buy an inexpensive waterproof mattress cover to put on top of your bed once you have made it, with a washable fleece on top. This in itself may be enough to stop Monty soiling the bed (as your scent will be much less strong to him ).

I also recommend buying a better quality washable breathable mattress cover to put under you, over the mattress in case of future cat pee 'accidents'. John Lewis sells some decent quality ones which won't make you 'sweaty' in bed! 

Ensure all cat pee stains are removed from the mattress with an enzyme cleaner to prevent Monty being attracted to the same spots repeatedly. One of the best for the task is Bio Tex Stain Remover, which also has the advantage of smelling OK.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_2_8?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=biotex+stain+remover&sprefix=bio+tex+,aps,136&crid=17AXSLCVSDWS

When you shut your cats out of the bedroom at bedtime, give them a room of their own for the night, with a door you can close. Develop a bedtime routine where they are settled with their supper (tasty wet food) , water bowls, litter trays, cat beds (off the floor). Leave a radio on low playing soothing classical music. Close the door and then close your bedroom door when you go to bed. Once the cats get into this routine they will accept it; they are only young cats still, so they are very adaptable.

I would also put Monty back on the Zylkene, as it was effective before. I suggest a course for a month, but as it is a supplement it can be given long term if necessary. Though I find it more effective with one of my cats, if there is a break of several months between courses.

Any cat with a bladder problem needs to be on a wet food diet, no dry food at all. This is because the bed soiling could possibly be linked to an irritated bladder/cystitis. A wet food diet ensures Monty is getting the fluids he needs with his food. His urine will be more dilute and he will be encouraged to pee more often (which is what we want) so his bladder is flushed through more often.

It would also be an idea to increase all the cat resources in the home. e.g. add another litter tray (making 4), and spread the trays around the house. Add extra water bowls around the house, extra scratch posts and pads (several to every room), extra cat beds, another cat tree, a choice of high up places to sit and snooze.

Very important, the two cats should have their own separate feeding stations at least 10 ft apart and out of sight of each other. e.g perhaps feed one cat on the floor and one on a worktop or table the other side of the room.

Always feed the insecure cat (Monty) first, so he does not get anxious worrying if there will be enough food for him. Do not allow sharing of bowls or stealing each other's food. Buy them both microchip feeders to maintain the 'sanctity' of their dishes, if necessary.

Cats who are indoors 24/7 can become bored, restless and anxious if they do not have enough stimulation. Yours are only young so being indoors is fine - I have kept all my cats indoors until they were at least a year old. But to keep them challenged, physically and mentally, it is good to utilise the vertical space (as well as the floor space) in the home for them.

Here are some ideas you could adapt quite cheaply. I put similar attractions all over my house (where ever I had wall space) when mine were young cats. I bought ready-made shelves from Ikea. My OH made horizontal and vertical poles from cardboard inner tubes from rolls of carpet, which he covered with offcuts of carpet using No More Nails Glue and industrial staples. He fixed the poles to the walls with drain pipe brackets (from B & Q).

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...AhUMPFAKHVs9AVwQsAQIXg&biw=1440&bih=826&dpr=2

Please let us know how things go. 

Photos of your two feline companions would be lovely


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## Lozza44

Hi @chillminx 
Thanks for your reply - I wish I had come on here ages ago! 

Yes, both are neutered. Your comments about being territorial make sense. When I think about it, there are things that happen that we can change. Willow is quite domineering and greedy when it comes to food and she demands a lot of attention. I didn't realise they should be fed separately but this is a change we will make.

We have already decided we need to shut them out of the room at night. Thankfully when it first started earlier in the year we cleaned the mattress properly with an enzyme cleaner and bought good waterproof mattress protectors - we have two of everything, it's sometimes like a laundry in here  He has only ever pee'd first thing in the morning when one or both of us is still in bed. During the day we cover the bed with a shower curtain lol. I'd be reluctant to shut them in a room at night, they each have their own wee 'hidey-holes' around the house and when they sleep in the daytime they are usually in different rooms.

We have started the Zylkene for both of them this week - with us going away this weekend we are going everything possible to keep their stress to a minimum.

With regards to feeding Monty wet food, this might be an issue. Both of them have very sensitive tummies. They were quite behind in feeding when they were first rescued as tiny kittens (they were hand reared by a lady from cats protection league). Initially it was just Willow but both react badly to most wet food. It seems to be too rich for them. After a lot of trial and error and vet's visits, we now have them on a premium 'grain-free' dried food. They also get some plain cooked chicken in the morning. They react badly to the slightest change in their diet so I'd be reluctant to change that at the moment. Apart from the chicken in the morning, they are grazers with their dried food throughout the day. They both drink plenty water (we have extra bowls, one of which is in the lounge so we see them drinking). We didn't want to put them on dried food as we lost our wee cat, Dizzy, suddenly last year to a kidney stone/kidney failure and from what we have read, dried food could have caused this (she wasn't a big drinker).

Thanks for the ideas about entertaining them. They have a lot of stuff already to keep them amused and also have some higher places to hide out when they need to. Will look into this a bit further though.

Finally, as requested, some photos - Monty is the one with the white chin :Cat


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## chillminx

Aww, what beautiful cats! Thanks for the photos  

I love black and white cats - I have two myself! 

Please let us know how things go with Monty.


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## Lozza44

Thank you. We love them to bits  I will keep you posted! Thank you so much for the advice


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## Eireann

Hi all!

I have two cats, both one year olds, spayed; and though they are not sisters, they get along well (groom each other, cuddle and play). Up until very recently, I had two litter boxes, and one was barely used at all as they used the other two together. I cleaned it almost every day, but not too religiously, and did a complete clean and wash once a week (using bleach) and everyone was happy.

About a month ago, one of my girls, Minny, started pooping outside the box. Nothing had changed - not the set-up, not the litter. At first I thought she might be ill, but I took her to the vet and all was fine. The behaviour was never consistent; she'd just miss occasionally, but as the weeks went by at some point it was at least every other day that I had to go at it with the enzyme cleaners again. She was trying to dig at my linoleum floor a lot, and the poop would always be very close to the box in the same location. I blocked the area; and for a few days all was well again, but then she found a new spot on the other side of the box. I started paying even closer attention. I did some research, and got a third, extra-large box, which I put near the other box where the accidents always happened. She had one more accident, then it stopped for eight days and I thought I had solved the problem - but no! Yesterday and today she pooped outside of the box again. Again this happened after endless attempts to dig around in the general area of the litter boxes.

The boxes are very clean now; and the behaviour does not seem to correlate to their cleanliness (sometimes she does it after I have just cleaned, sometimes after a few days). My other girl is just fine and did not change her habits. Peeing is never a problem for either of them.

I'm pretty sure that Minny wants her own box that the other cat is not using, because although the circumstances of the accidents vary, it seems like she always goes on the floor when there is already some poo in the box that is not hers, but there are two other boxes that now neither of them use. I have an apartment, and the cats are otherwise happy and well cared for (my friends say very spoiled). They don't go outside, but they have cat trees and toys and lots of fun and attention. Minny is a Ragdoll, Kitty is a Birman. Minny is definitely the boss. 

Help please! It's very frustrating to not know what she wants me to do.


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## Eireann

Just adding: I read through all the general tips, and really hope someone can offer some interpretation of our specific situation. The litter box they used to both use was covered; the big litter box is uncovered and the other regular sized was also uncovered. They seem unaffected by this; it is the location that they tend to go for (always the one in the corner of the hall, whether it is the small covered one or the big uncovered one). I use unscented litter, no lining or scents, and have never switched brands.


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## Eireann

Final addendum: this happened in the wake of Kitty's spay surgery. They had to be separated for a while, and one of the litter boxes was in the spare room with Kitty. (The one they normally never use). Minny's problems did not start until a few days after I had reintegrated them.


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## chillminx

Hello @Eireann 

I agree it can be very frustrating if one can't work out what the problem is for the cat, what she is trying to tell you.

Is Minny passing normal stools ? Her stools should be firm, formed in segments, and sausage shaped. If her stools are soft, loose, or at the other extreme very hard, then it could cause her to avoid the tray.

When cats avoid the tray and poo right next to it, it can be because they dislike the litter, the type of tray or the location of the tray. All of these seem unlikely from what you say. Though sometimes it can help to change the type of litter for a fine granular litter (if this is not already being used).

It seems very possible she is soiling to scent-mark (known as "middening" when it is poo). I think you may be right Minny doesn't like sharing a tray for poo with Kitty. So she is pooing next to the tray to make a statement.

I do think the temporary separation from Kitty, after Kitty was spayed, might be a significant factor in the development of this behaviour. With Kitty out of the way Minny began to regard all the resources as hers. (Major resources for a cat are food, water, litter trays and their human companions).

Cats do not naturally share their resources with other felines, (other than nursing mums and their kittens) and sometimes quite a short period of separation of two housemates can result in one cat becoming more protective of their resources. In addition both girls have reached young adulthood, a time when cats start to become more possessive of their resources anyway.

Were you able to reintegrate Minny & Kitty slowly/gradually after their separation, to minimise any tension or resentment between them? Were they able to see each other (e.g. through a screen door) whilst Kitty was recovering from her op ? These things can make a difference as to how well the cat who remained home will accept the returning cat.

You mention Minny is the "boss". Actually cats as a species do not have a hierarchy, so there is no dominant cat as such. However it's possible for one cat to have a more assertive character than another. Also possible for one cat to be more possessive and protective of their resources than another. The more possessive cat tends to be the one who feels more insecure, more anxious about losing their resources, worried there will not be enough to go around.

You mention you have 3 litter trays. 3 trays is the minimum number of trays for 2 indoor cats. 4 trays is a better number, IME for 2 cats. There should be 4 (or 3) completely separate toiletting areas, so do not place the trays next to each other (or near each other) but spread them around the house, in areas of low footfall. If you put the trays near each other, only one of the trays will get used and the others probably ignored.

If you provide covered trays always permanently remove the door flaps. Cats hate to be completely enclosed when they toilet (it is a security issue for them). I would probably make all the trays open ones, but if they don't mind covered trays that's OK.

Ideally Minny should have a tray of her own which Kitty can't use. I have faced a similar problem in the past and resolved it by fitting a microchip cat flap to the door of one room, putting a tray in there and only scanning in one cat's chip. (i.e. in your case, Minny's chip) . With a bit of gentle encouragement Minny would soon learn there was a tray specially for her in the room. Do you have a room you could use for the purpose (a bathroom would do) a room where you can always keep the door closed, so Kitty can not go in?

I think without Minny having her own tray, to which Kitty has no access, the middening may continue, unfortunately.

As it seems likely this is an issue about competition for resources, it will probably help if the two girls are given their own separate feeding stations, at least 10 ft apart and out of sight of each other. Microchip feeders are best so there can be no food theft or sharing of bowls, and each cat can trust their food resources are their own.

Multiple cat beds and scratch posts around the house will also help to reduce competition.

Please let us know how things go.


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## Eireann

Thank you!

They have their own feeding stations, yes, in different rooms even. Minny's stools are normal and look healthy. Reintegration after the spay was rocky for a few days, but then went smoothly. They're very affectionate again now. They were never fully separate for days on end; only when I was out or at night. And during that time, Kitty's feeding station, litterbox and bed was always in the room with her. But you are right that Minny has always been more protective of her resources than Kitty, who is very confident and quite willing to share. 

I live in a fairly small one bedroom apartment (the "spare room" is a walk-in closet), and am afraid it is impossible to have a litter box Kitty does not have access to (I am not allowed to fit cat flaps - it's a sublet). So that's one thing I really cannot try. :/ I could put down a fourth litterbox, but at this point it will be very tricky to keep it far enough away from the other three and the two feeding stations. And there are already two trays that Kitty never uses!

Beds and such are plentiful. 

Yeah, I really wish Minny could talk to me, because obviously I would love to help her, but I have no idea what she wants!


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## Eireann

By the way, if it is middening that Minny is doing, then why would she spend so long trying to cover it up (even if she cannot) by pawing at the floor? She really tries to dig in there before and after she does her business.


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## chillminx

Eireann said:


> By the way, if it is middening that Minny is doing, then why would she spend so long trying to cover it up (even if she cannot) by pawing at the floor? She really tries to dig in there before and after she does her business.


One of my neutered male cats is an occasional sprayer. I have observed that sometimes he paws the floor in a burying movement after spraying, sometimes he paws the floor before and after spraying. The only time he doesn't paw the floor afterwards is when he sprays by the back door on his way out through the cat flap.

I don't know exactly why a cat would 'bury' after scent marking (either spraying or middening) but my guess is it might be because they feel a sense of conflict, i.e. they have an overwhelming urge to follow their instinct to scent mark with wee or poo, but having done so, it is almost like they regret it because they understand they have soiled their home and most cats do not like to soil their home. I can think of no other explanation.

However, you may be right that Minny is NOT middening, in which case the soiling is due to something about the litter trays she doesn't like. The extended pawing at the floor could be her way of trying to show you she is unhappy with the litter tray situation.

As you are short of space, you could try giving Minny her own litter tray in a special litter tray cupboard. Fit a microchip flap to the entrance so only she can access it, and cut a hole in the back which you cover with perspex as a window, so she is not having to jump into a dark place.

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/esearch.ht...20without%20filter%3ECat%20Litter%20Cupboards


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## Eireann

I have to report this behaviour is still going on. There are two litter boxes Kitty _never_ uses for anything, but Minny will still only use them sporadically. She pees in the box Kitty uses for both urinating and poo, but for poo sometimes she uses one of the boxes, sometimes she doesn't. She always tries to bury her poo and is regularly (though not always) vocal and unsure before going. Even when she is vocal and unsure, she may still end up in the box. Or not. The other day she actually managed to drag the litter mat over her poo in an attempt to bury it (I purchased one recently to see if that would help). Sometimes the box is perfectly clean when she uses it; sometimes it is not, it does not seem to matter. Sometimes she has no accident for 2, 3 or even 4 days, and sometimes it is every day. Aluminum foil seems to be a bit of a deterrent from using the floor - I've had mixed results. I keep a diary, but there is no pattern.

There are two tall scratching posts, four special cat beds, scratching mats, tons of chairs and surfaces for them to lie on, cat shelves that I built myself, three feeding stations and a cat tree. All in a one bedroom apartment. They have a stash of toys they keep under the sofa, and I play with them every day.

These cats were happy using one small covered box for 9 months before Minny changed her behaviour. They now have three large uncovered boxes at their disposal. They are spaced as far apart as possible, and as far away from any of the three feeding stations as possible.

I have absolutely no idea what to do.


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## chillminx

Hi @Eireann, your cats are now young adults, so it is not surprising that Minny's behaviour has changed. Kittens behave differently to adults, they are not territorial, nor as protective of their resources as adult cats are. Their behaviour starts to change when they reach sexual maturity (4 to 6 mths approx) and then it continues to develop socially until around the age of 4. This applies to neutered cats as well as un-neutered.

Some kittens grow into adults who are laid back and tolerant about sharing resources. Kitty is probably one of those types, but Minny is not.

I see you mention "3 feeding stations" - does this mean you have 3 cats? Sorry, I thought you just had the 2 cats. 

You mentioned you live in a small one-bedroom apartment. If you have 3 indoor cats that does not give much space for them to get away from each other. Even for 2 cats lack of space may be a problem for them, territory wise. Utilising the vertical space above head with walkways all around the apartment, places to climb, sit, or sleep may help. Or it may make no difference to Minny's behaviour. Being able to go outdoors may help. Have you considered training her to walk in harness and leash.?

In the home I think the only immediate change likely to help Minny is to have her own litter tray which the other(s) can't use. If you don't like the idea of the litter box cupboard (the Zooplus one I linked you to in a previous post)., then I have another suggestion :-

You could use your small spare room for Minny's sole use tray. As you are in a sublet there is no need to remove the door or cut a hole in it for a cat flap. Instead buy a cheap screen door and fit it in the doorway of the spare room (leaving the room door open). Cut out part of the netting, make a frame to go across the screen door and fit a microchip flap. My OH made a screen door for our French Windows. What I really like about the screen door is the hinges are open at the top so the door can be lifted off easily when we need to close the French windows each night. It didn't take him long to make and has been a boon for us (for a different reason to the one you would use yours for of course).


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## Eireann

No, I indeed have two cats. They just have an extra feeding station up on one of the walkways. For fun. I've tried leash and harness with Kitty and Minny; both did not take to it. 

I am not a DIY person at all - I can hang a shelf or a painting, but that's it. And there are already two litter trays in the house that go all but unused (one completely unused, the other sometimes used by Minny only).


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## Eireann

Oh, and I free feed and they eat & drink from all three stations whenever they feel like it - so there is no competition for food. They play & groom each other often, and usually prefer hanging out together. Minny is a bit more protective when it comes to resources (or, as I call it, excitable about food), but this is also in contrast to Kitty, who is just extremely laid-back and does not even allow herself to be summoned for treats.

In short, I just_ cannot see_ Minny being so tense that she needs to have a litterbox Kitty does not have access to, especially since Kitty does not even use 2 out of the 3 boxes for anything. Minny also is a Maine Coon, and I was told when I got her that she'd be miserable without another cat for company because it is supposed to be a social breed; which is why Kitty came to live with us in the first place.


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## chillminx

Well I am afraid I have run out of things to suggest. I think it needs a pet behaviourist to come to your home and observe the two cats in their own environment. It is not always easy to establish the cause of a problem from a distance.

If you have pet insurance you will be covered for advice from a pet behaviourist as long as a vet makes the referral. But you can find your own behaviorist and ask the vet to refer you to them.

These are some I know to be effective:

http://www.vickyhalls.net/

http://www.apbc.org.uk/

http://capbt.org/findabehaviourist.php

First one listed above - Vicky Halls - has written several popular books on cat behaviour.


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## StormyWind

Hello,I hope someone can advise.Igot my first ever kitten on Sun,he has acovered litter box that he uses for poo,but not pee.Instead he pees in the bath.the litter box is located in the bathroom,that is the quietest room,we have no other pets/children.When he peed in the bath I mopped it up with some loo roll and put it into the box in the hope that the smell would entice him to pee in there.It did'nt work,I also cleaned the bath and sink with white vinegar to try to neutralize the smell.I know its only early days,but I want to nip this in the bud.Thanks for any help and sorry for the ramble.


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## chillminx

Hi @StormyWind.

Cats like to pee and poo in separate places. So your kitten needs one litter box for pooing in and one for peeing in. He may vary which one he uses for pee and which for poo.

The 2 boxes need to to be placed in different areas of the home, so they are distinct and separate toiletting areas. So not both in the bathroom.

If you want to provide a covered litter box as his second box, please remove the door flap permanently. Cats do not like being completely enclosed when they toilet.


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## StormyWind

chillminx said:


> Hi @StormyWind.
> 
> Cats like to pee and poo in separate places. So your kitten needs one litter box for pooing in and one for peeing in. He may vary which one he uses for pee and which for poo.
> 
> The 2 boxes need to to be placed in different areas of the home, so they are distinct and separate toiletting areas. So not both in the bathroom.
> 
> If you want to provide a covered litter box as his second box, please remove the door flap permanently. Cats do not like being completely enclosed when they toilet.


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## StormyWind

I did'nt know they needed a separtebox,I did'nt put the flap on,I thought it would be claustrophobic for him.I will get another litter tray,any idea how to get rid of the smell?Thanks


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## Bertie'sMum

StormyWind said:


> I did'nt know they needed a separtebox,I did'nt put the flap on,I thought it would be claustrophobic for him.I will get another litter tray,any idea how to get rid of the smell?Thanks


Bicarbonate of Soda is a cheap and effective way to neutralise urine smells.


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## chillminx

StormyWind said:


> I did'nt know they needed a separtebox,I did'nt put the flap on,I thought it would be claustrophobic for him.I will get another litter tray,any idea how to get rid of the smell?Thanks


If he has only peed in the bath and sink you should be able to sluice it away with hot water and get rid of the smell easily. It is when there is urine on carpets it can be hard to get rid of the smell.

For carpets bicarb of soda is good as Missysmum2 recommended, or you can use a stain remover such as Bio Tex Stain Remover. You need to soak the carpet and the underlay with the stain remover, and scrub the floorboards underneath. Leave on for an hour or two for the enzymes to do their work.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-St...e=UTF8&qid=1508869820&sr=1-2&keywords=bio+tex

How old is your kitten ? If he is 4 months old he could be approaching sexual maturity and this will make his urine very strong smelling due to hormones.

Or his urine could be very concentrated due to lack of enough moisture in his diet. If he is a bit dehydrated it might cause him to avoid the tray due to discomfort in his bladder.

Feed him wet food only, NO dry food. Cats are designed to get their fluids in their food (just as with prey). Wet food ensures he gets the fluids he needs. Kittens on dry food rarely drink enough water and can suffer from chronic low level dehydration.


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## StormyWind

chillminx said:


> If he has only peed in the bath and sink you should be able to sluice it away with hot water and get rid of the smell easily. It is when there is urine on carpets it can be hard to get rid of the smell.
> 
> For carpets bicarb of soda is good as Missysmum2 recommended, or you can use a stain remover such as Bio Tex Stain Remover. You need to soak the carpet and the underlay with the stain remover, and scrub the floorboards underneath. Leave on for an hour or two for the enzymes to do their work.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-St...e=UTF8&qid=1508869820&sr=1-2&keywords=bio+tex
> 
> How old is your kitten ? If he is 4 months old he could be approaching sexual maturity and this will make his urine very strong smelling due to hormones.
> 
> Or his urine could be very concentrated due to lack of enough moisture in his diet. If he is a bit dehydrated it might cause him to avoid the tray due to discomfort in his bladder.
> 
> dehydration.[/QUFeed him wet food only, NO dry food. Cats are designed to get their fluids in their food (just as with prey). Wet food ensures he gets the fluids he needs. Kittens on dry food rarely drink enough water and can suffer from chronic low level OTE]


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## StormyWind

[


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## StormyWind

I got another litter tray I have put it in another room and he is still peeing in the bath/sink.I have tried moving the original litter tray elsewhere and shutting the bathroom door,trouble is he shoots in to the bathroom,whenever any body uses it now.Any ideas anyone?


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## Bertie'sMum

StormyWind said:


> I got another litter tray I have put it in another room and he is still peeing in the bath/sink.I have tried moving the original litter tray elsewhere and shutting the bathroom door,trouble is he shoots in to the bathroom,whenever any body uses it now.Any ideas anyone?


We used to have a little tortie who was exactly the same regarding the bathroom sink - but at least that was very easy to keep clean ! In fact I wish Missy would do the same - then I wouldn't have to keep getting down on the bathroom floor to wash it and the walls a couple of times a day ! At my age my knees protest too much !!!!


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## Eireann

Just an update about Minny and Kitty, so that others may benefit! We had only one accident since the last time I posted. 

After getting some advice elsewhere, what I did was cover all the areas where Minny would usually poop on the floor, right next to one of the litterboxes, with three small sheets of aluminium foil. This would deter her from using those spots, and instead I found she would opt to go in one of the boxes. I also for a while left a tiny "dropping" the box, as a reminder that that was the place she should use as a toilet; I stopped doing that about a week ago. We had one accident about 10 days ago (when I removed the foil for an evening) and none since. 

In the end, she did not seem to care whether the box she used was one Kitty had used at all (she does have a strong preference for the XL box). I think she had just fallen into a bad habit and needed to be coaxed out of it. All cats and situations are different. 

Stormywind, perhaps making the bathtub / sink unattractive to your cat may help him too?


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## chillminx

@Eireann -

There is a problem with making the bathtub and sink unattractive and that is that very often the cat will choose somewhere else to poo or pee. That could be in place that is much harder to clean e.g. on carpet behind furniture perhaps. So basically you could end up with a worse problem. (It does happen)

Making a place unattractive to poo on is ok but is not doing anything to address the underlying cause of why the cat is doing it. That is why I did not give you that advice myself....because I know from experience it is not a permanent solution to a chronic problem.

Cats are logical creatures and if they avoid a litter tray there is a sound reason for it; it is not just "a bad habit".

But if you've found putting down baking foil on the spots she was using has deterred her, then that's great! You are fortunate it has worked for you and I trust it continues to work.

If Minny's soiling were to start again somewhere else in the home, I hope you won't be upset with her, but will do the detective work to suss what she is trying to tell you.

Good luck.


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## Eireann

Of course you should work on the litter box situation - which I did, for months, don't tell me I did not do my "detective work", or call me "very lucky" when I spent hours and hours researching this topic and consulted many experts, that is incorrect and a little patronising - but cats can absolutely develop bad habits even when it comes to soiling the house, especially if it takes a long time to take action or figure out where the problem lies.

What happened in my case was that by the time I figured out what Minny wanted - an XL litter box - she had already gotten used to pooping on that spot on the floor. So I recommend a combined approach.

I forgot to mention I also praised Minny every time after I saw her using the box. That's another method that was recommended to me. Not sure how much effect that had - I could not be there all the time of course - but I am sure it can't hurt.

I have never been angry with Minny. I love that cat!


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## SlyGuysMum

Hi, I have a 2 year old Domestic long hair that i rescued from SPCA. He has lived happily in my room and the co joining hallway and hasnt peed or sprayed. until one day when i had a friend over which happened to coincide with a litterbox position shift. Suddenly he sprayed upstairs on the couch in the dead of night. I followed all the steps, cleaned the couch, put the box back and prevented access to the lounge as i assumed i had upset him with the shift. Now suddenly last night a flatmate of mine left the door open to the lounge and hes peed on the same sofa although this time the other side. Hes not had any major changes except ive been on holiday and come back but he seemed pleased to see me. Im confused as to why its just this sofa. not any others in the room and not anywhere in my room which has ample kitty hidey holes. Im going to get him a feliway diffuser tomorrow for the lounge.. My only conclusion as to why hes not peed on our other sofa is that i sit more frequently on it and quite often have post work kips on it as it is very large and comfy and i guess it (like my room) is saturated with my scent so therefore smells like his safe room..??? any thoughts. he needs to stop as my other flatmate is not a cat fan and dont want to upset his already good graces....


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## Paddypaws

http://www.catnutrition.org/blog/urinary
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/feline-interstitial-cystitis-it-s-not-about-bladder


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## Wadsleyowl

Hi. We recently.adopted 2 brothers. Nearly a year old. 

We are having problems with poo around the houae. We have had them a month and been told to keep them in for 6 weeks.

I am beginnng to wonder if they need to go out and are starting to let us know by pooing around the house. This started about 3 weeks ago after I let them in the conservatory and kitchen whilst at work. They had pood in the conservatory and did the same following day. Since then we'e had poo in the middle of lounge rug twice, on sofa in conservatory and now under Christmas tree twice this week. 

One chases the other andnia more playful but they do cuddle up together and wash each other too. 

They are both food mad and have been known to get in bread bin and also actual bin for whatever they can find. 

The poos that are left are usually a bit soft and today' was still on cats bum, he hasn't cleaned himself. 

Few thoughts...
1 let them out and hope it fixes it.
2 change cat food, see if it' one flavour that upsets their stomach, but why would they not use the tray? Started cleaning it asap and have 2 types of litter.
3 gets some feliway to help relax them.

They were abandoned in a sealef.box so not 100% that their brothers or what history is. Wondering if this is why they were gotten rid of. Lovely cats otherwise but it' starting to stress me out.

Help please


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## Wadsleyowl

To add... They do go upstairs yet as I cant trust rhem. Downstairs is all wood so not too bad to clean.


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## chillminx

Hi @Wadsleyowl and welcome 

Having soft poo can lead to cats avoiding the litter tray. So first of all their poo needs firming up. Feed them home cooked chicken drumsticks or poached white fish until they start passing firm formed stools.

Once their stools are firm, transfer them back gradually on to cat food - a good quality grain free wet food. No dry food, as it is too high in carbs/cereals. No cat milk either.

Tesco sells bags of frozen drumsticks in their Value range and bags of frozen white fish in the same range.

For two cats you need at least 3 litter trays (the rule of thumb is a minimum of one tray per cat plus one extra). This is essential as some cats like to poo in one tray and pee in another tray. I'd provide 4 trays at present as you are having this soiling problem.

Spread the trays around the area they use, do not group them together. Place them in quiet spots.

If their present tray is a covered one, remove the door flap. Make the new trays open ones.

Provide a litter that is fine grains. Use a clumping litter, it is more hygienic for the cats. Most cats like using the plant based litters such as Cats Best Oko Plus.

If a cat poos on the floor scoop it up and place it in one of the new trays and leave it there a while. The cats will notice it is there.

Clean the floor with an enzyme cleaner such as Simple Solution.

If you have other cats (or other pets) or your cats can see other cats through the window in the garden, yours could be "middening", i.e. soiling with their poo as a way of scent marking.

I assume both your boys are neutered as you adopted them from Rescue?

I have allowed my cats out after a month after adopting them, and provided they were over a year old. I recommend you install a microchip cat flap, so yours can get back in the house safely whenever they need to. The microchip flap is important for keeping out strange cats, as your two are possibly very territorial (i.e with the middening).

Please let us know if the above suggestions resolve the pooing away from the trays.


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## Wadsleyowl

Thanks. Will try an extra tray. 

Just found some pee on rug so wondering if it' a territory thing.


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## chillminx

Firming up their poo is important, not just in case they are avoiding the tray for that reason but also so that their anal glands empty as they should every time they defecate. Stools need to be firm so they put the right amount of pressure in the rectum to empty the anal gland sacs.


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## ClaireJ

Hi, back again. We have a recurring problem which I'm desperately needing help with. 
We have 2 cats and one of them has a habit of peeing on our carpet next to his litter tray. 
So...it happens every few weeks, generally at night when he goes to the living room litter tray and finds his brother has had a poo in it so rather than go to the 2nd litter tray which is unused he'll just go right there on the floor. We generally will get up at all hours if we've heard one of them in the litter tray to clear it but there's some occasions where we don't wake up to do it. 
Its almost like he's waited too long to go and can't get to the other litter tray in the kitchen. (Our house isn't big so it's not that far) 
We have no space to add another tray but even then I don't think it would help as the kitchen was unused and the wee was next to the one in the lounge. 
We've just spent a lot of money gettimg our carpets and underlay replaced as last one stunk and thought maybe the smell was attracting him back. I've bought a plastic carpet protector which is laid under and on top of carpet to make cleaning easier but ideally we need to solve the problem. 
There's nothing medically wrong, we've had him at the vet so it's a behavioural problem. There isn't a behavour specialist where we live. 
If we lock them out of living room at night we get woken up at 3am no fail. 
Both are house cats and neutered and generally get on ok. 
Any advice welcome.


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## ClaireJ

I should also mention that the boys have lived with us for 3 years and this has been going on intermittently for the whole time.


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## chillminx

Hi there @ClaireJ, I think you have identified the problem, your cat does not like using the litter tray when he finds his brother has done a poo in it, so he goes right next to it, which in his mind is the next best thing to using the tray. As he feels he can't use the tray, he is being obliging by peeing next to the tray.

Poo is often used by cats as a territorial scent marker, (known as "middening"). When it's being used as a scent marker the cat does not bury it,, leaves it exposed.

My usual advice with litter trays is to spread them around the house, so there are distinct and separate toilet areas. But in this instance I would put 2 litter trays together at night. Perhaps a small gap between the trays.

If there is not a problem in the daytime you can move the second tray away and replace it at night.

I would also stand both the trays on puppy pads (or human incontinence bed sheets which are cheaper). Not that you want to the cat to pee next to the trays, but if he does do it then at least it will soak into the pad which you can bin, instead of you having to mop up.

It might be an idea to install a Feliway Friends diffuser in the living room, near the litter trays. This emits calming cat pheromones. Or a Pet Remedy diffuser instead, which emits the calming scent of valerian. We use either of these at the Shelter when we have stress-related issues between cats sharing pens and litter trays.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FELIWAY-FR...id=1514032501&sr=1-2&keywords=feliway+friends

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pet-Remedy...9&sr=1-1&keywords=pet+remedy+plug+in+diffuser

I have also found that when it comes to scent marking issues a product called Zylkene can be very effective. It is a supplement, not a drug, so is not addictive. It calms anxious cats, or cats who have territorial issues - as your boy possibly does. One of my cats who was spraying indoors had a month's course of Zylkene and the spraying almost stopped completely.

Zylkene can be given long term without ill effects, but I prefer to give for a month and then see how things go. Contents of one capsule a day added to food.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zylkene-75...d=1514032858&sr=1-1&keywords=zylkene+for+cats


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## LewisH

Hi all,

I've still been having problems with my two. I know it's stikk early days but things have taken an odd turn.

Up until Saturday it was status quo. H was pooping on the floor buy the tray, peeing was OK. M was using the tray for both poop and pee without issue.

On Saturday morning I woke up and could hear H doing the 'digging' motions, I know it was him as M was on the bed with me. She got up to go nose around so I got out of bed to see what was going to greet me. Unfortunately M didn't realise I was right behind her. When I spoke he got the fright of her life and bolted round the flat and ended up behind the sofa. Fortunately she crept back out quite quickly and was soon accepting a fuss and attention from her brother H.

Sadly I think this has frightened her as she has taken to pooping and peeing in the bathtub!

So, here's my current situation:

Two trays in living room, one with Catsan, one with Cats Best (IMO not very good at 'clumping'!). One tray (large under-bed storage box) in the spare room (that we hardly go in) with wood pellets from [email protected] And from this morning there's a tray with 'Eco Grain' in the bathroom (though I'm reliably informed by my o/h that it has been ignored and the tub has taken another pooping).

I've tried the suggest route of putting a piece of poop into the tray so they pick up their scent. But both just turn up their noses and want to get away as quickly as possible.

I'm actually wondering if I should shut them in the living room again for a week so they can just use those trays? My big fear obviously is that they'll pee on the rug, sofa or something else soft!

Starting to lose my patience a bit but I don't know what to 'encourage' them to be better house guests!

Cats eh!


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## chillminx

Hi @LewisH. I am sorry to hear you are having the same problems still 

Could you please confirm the following:

1/ you are already using plug in diffusers of both Feliway Friends and Pet Remedy, especially in the room where the main litter trays are?

2/ you have already started H on a course of Zylkene?

3/ M and H both have consistently firm, formed normal-looking stools, not soft or loose? And neither cat is straining to pass stools?

4/ there are no symptoms in either cat of cystitis e.g. frequent trips to the litter tray to pass small amounts of urine, or crying when in the litter box, or frequent soiling with small amounts of urine?

5/ you are feeding them both a wet food diet?

I suggest removing the litter from one tray and replacing it with a puppy training pad. If this gets used this would at least tell us the feel of the litter is a problem for one or both.

You could confine them to one room for a couple of weeks to see if it helps them start using the trays reliably. I wouldn't advise using a room that's carpeted as anything soft such as carpeting is likely to attract soiling if they are still of a mind to do it. Is the kitchen large enough to shut them in?


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## LewisH

Hi @chillminx

To quickly answer your questions:

1. I have a Feliway in the main room where most offences occur. It's nearly empty now though so have ordered a refill. I have also ordered Pet Remedy. I assume they're safe to use together?
2. No, I spotted this in another thread, I will get some tomorrow from [email protected] (far cheaper than Amazon for a change!)
3. Stools are mostly OK. M had a soft stool the other day, but that was after couple of days of the cat cold remedies the vet gave. Last few have been fine. 
4. Both cats are peeing happily, no noise or signs of distress.
5. They currently get 2/3 wet to 1/3 dry which is how they came from the rescue. The dry is down all day (taken up at night) with wet in the morning and evening. Though their behavior would suggest going to more regular wet feeds of smaller amounts. I will be trailing three wet feeds from today.

Unfortunately the kitchen and bathroom are both pretty small at about 2m x 2m each. I could give them the run of the hall/bathroom even though the hall is carpeted. It would however mean no natural light for the duration of their confinement, so perhaps this is left as last resort. I will try the puppy pads idea. I can easily get my hands on something similar!!

Even after all this, no matter how they my frustrate me with their odd toilet habits. They are amazingly cute, full of energy and a pleasure to be in their company.

Thank you for all your advice. I will try to not ramble on too much!


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## chillminx

Please don't worry Lewis, you're not rambling  Every piece of information helps build a picture. Often house soiling problems take a fair bit of detective work to solve along with the need to try out various strategies and tactics.

I am hopeful the Zylkene might help.

I also have an intuition that reducing the dry food might help, e.g. reduce it to about a dozen pieces a day as treats. Wet food can be left in an auto-feeder during the day. This is the one I have used successfully for years :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Mate-C...-1&keywords=cat+mate+c20+automatic+pet+feeder

(Note: remember to switch it on underneath each time you set it, or else take out the battery when not in use).


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## LewisH

HI again,

I've had a little bit of sucess over the long weekend.

The Feliway and Pet Remedy (pongs for the first few days doesn't it!) are in. I need to pick up Zyklene this week, [email protected] are far cheaper than Amazon!

I decided to be brave and close off the bathroom at all times and simply put a litter tray in front of the door. It seems to be getting used along with the main trays.

When I last deep cleaned the trays I moved one of the usual main trays into the spare room. Both H & M followed it to pee in. So it looks like they associate that tray for wee. A bit frustration as that has traditionally had wood pellets in, so I may change to a clumping litter so it's more hygienic for them to us a few times while I'm at work.

I have been paying more attention to H's pooping habit. I think he _wants_ to use the tray. Half of his business is usually in the tray, half on the floor. So I'm going to try some low height disposable baking trays. If he's happy to squat over them, they this may well be a litter thing after all.

As Christmas is also over, removing the tree will give me a far more discreet corner to put a try in. Hopefully this will appease is fickle ways.

So all in all, some progress has been made.

Baby steps I guess...


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## chillminx

This is excellent news Lewis. Progress is being made - I am so pleased! 

Sometimes the causes of soiling are quite complex and can necessitate a few changes before the 'sweet spot' is found as far as the cat is concerned. As you are finding - it can take patience, intuition, plus trial & error, to find the answers. Well done!  

I'll look forward to reading updates of continuing progress.


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## LewisH

So a few more days in and still H is pooping on the floor.

It seems both he and his sister prefer to use the one tray. The other three in the flat remain unused.

I was thinking of placing the one tray (which is quite small) inside one of the larger one for a couple of days, see if they'll start to associate the larger tray as a toilet too.

Thankfully M seems to be back to using the one tray again so I'm thinking of removing the tray in front of the bathroom door and moving it into a more discreet place.

I'll see if I can dray up a quick floorplan so you can see where things are.


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## LewisH

As mentioned, here's a quick(ish) layout of the flat.

There are four litter trays (marked LT).

One in the Office/Spare Room and three in the living room (one by sofa under window, two in corner by kitchen).

They primarily use the small blue tray that cam with them, but it's not really suitable as a bit small and once one of them has pooped in it, it's off-limits. Henty will hold his wee until I clean it (it seems) Maureen with begrudgingly use the tray next to it. The tray in the spare room as been used twice in a month. The one under the window is new (last few days)

For now I have put the small blue tray into the larger black one to try and hint that they are the same thing.

Any thoughts?

PS - Apologies for my child-like scrawl.


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## chillminx

Good drawing Lewis, thank you, that's very helpful. 

The two trays placed together near the kitchen door will be viewed by the cats as one toilet, not two. But if neither tray is used it could be there's not enough privacy for them in that spot.

Also, some cats regard all trays located in the same room as being just one toilet, even when the trays are opposite ends of the room. So this may be a possibility too.

The tray in the office/spare room is probably regarded by the cats as a "fall back tray" i.e. one to be used in an emergency. Cats do often have a tray they regard in that way, and I think this is a useful option for H and M.

So - the tray that gets used most is the small tray placed by the window in the sitting room, the tray that came with them? I imagine that is a nice private spot for them, where they instinctively feel safe to toilet, and the tray itself is reassuring because it is familiar.

My thoughts are:

1/ Buy a couple more trays exactly like the one they use regularly. I would provide a total of 4 trays for now.

2/ Stand the new trays on puppy training pads (or inco sheets).

3/ If the new trays get used, advance to standing one small tray inside a larger tray - but make the changes one tray at a time.

4/ Fill the new trays with Worlds Best cat litter. It's a litter which often attract cats to it like a magnet. It is not cheap but in these circumstances it is worth trialling. if it works, you can buy it in bulk more cheaply on line from Zooplus etc.

5/ Position the trays as follows:

a/ leave the existing tray under the window in sitting room

b/ leave the existing tray in the office/spare room

c/ remove the two trays from their position near the kitchen door.

d/ If there is space in the bathroom (e.g. between door and washbasin) put a small tray there. (providing the door can be left open for them when the bathroom is not being used).

e/ Or is there a quiet corner of the kitchen with room for a tray? (Kitchens often tend to be quiet places for cats for large parts of the day.)

f/ In the hall area next to the kitchen - is there room for a tray? This is also a quiet area with not much human traffic I assume, so might be a better option than the kitchen. (note if the tray in the hall gets used by the cats, you could in time switch to a covered tray with the door flap removed, which would be less noticeable to your visitors than an open tray).

Main thing with the new trays is to guarantee accessibility. So if a door has to be kept mostly shut for practical reasons (i.e. door to kitchen, bathroom or hall) then it is best not to site a tray in that room, as the cats could come to rely on the access and then be thwarted if access is denied. Bathrooms are not such a problem as when occupied by humans cats will often scratch to gain access, LOL 

Let me know what you think OK?


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## Attackonliv

This was super helpful, But my kitten is still soiling the house. She's 6 months old and has used her litter tray fine since we've had her, which was from 2 months.

After a recent trip to the cattery for the first time, she came home and now poops and pees everywhere. We've tried changing food, position and size of the litter tray, and we've reduced her run of the house to just the kitchen and living room, which usually works if she's had an accident, which happened when we first had her.

My husband has been at home for 7 days on holiday so she's not been on her own at all. We're very worried because she's eating and drinking fine and shows no signs of distress, and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to where or when she defecates. She's currently on three types of food: whiskars kitten, felix kitten and wainwright's kitten. She eats two packets of wet food and a day and always has dry food down. We change her water daily, and her litter every two days. Her litter tray is very large and is covered. She always buries her poos when she uses the tray, and we've never had an issue with her using it before outside of the occasional accident.

She's a very affectionate cat, plays with her many toys constantly and is always looking for cuddles and playing from myself and my husband, which we do constantly.

Has anyone else has this issue when picking their cat up from the cattery? We're starting to get very worried, and my husband wants to take her to the vet. However, she shows no other changes to her usual behaviours and as I've said, eats and drinks fine, plays fine and other than this is her usual adorable self.

EDIT: Moved to computer and reworded


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## chillminx

Hello @Attackonliv and welcome 

First of all can I check with you that as she is now 6 mths old she has been spayed? If not this needs to be arranged a.s.a.p. as house soiling can be caused by scent marking which is more likely behaviour in un-neutered cats (male or female) than in neutered cats.

Now that she has reached sexual maturity she needs to have a minimum of two litter trays. These should be large trays, open or covered. But if you provide covered trays please remove the door flap permanently as cats do not like to be completely enclosed when they toilet (it is a security issue for them).

Position the trays in quiet spots in the home where there is not a lot of human traffic, so she can have privacy. But also ensure your kitten will always have access to both trays (i.e. the relevant doors will be left open for her to access the trays).

Do not place the two litter trays near each other. They need to be in different rooms, as that way your cat will regard them as two separate toilets, which is important to her. Outdoors cats would never pee and poo in the same spot.

Fill the new tray with Worlds Best cat litter. This is a fine granular litter, cereal based, similar to sand in texture. It acts almost like a magnet to most cats. It is not cheap, but if you find it helps you can save money by buying it in bulk online from places such as Zooplus UK.

Dry food is not great for a kitten's diet. Kittens are rarely able to drink enough water to hydrate the dry food, and as a result may suffer from chronic low level dehydration which is bad for their bladder and their kidneys. I recommend reducing the amount of dry food you feed her and increasing the wet food to around 300 grams a day.

During the day time wet food can be left in an autofeeder. I used this system successfully for years for my cats when I was out at work all day. (I still use this same autofeeder for feeding 2 of my cats during the night)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Mate-C...3&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=catmate20+auto+feeder

With the larger intake of fluids from the increase in wet food she will have a more dilute urine which will be more comfortable to pass. As a result she will be encouraged to pee more often instead of holding on to her pee and concentrating it ( which cats are able to do, but it is hard on their kidneys)

If she is more comfortable peeing she is less likely to avoid the trays and use the floor. Same with pooing.

Whiskas and Felix are not the greatest foods, though not the worst. Certainly they are healthier for her than dry food. Wainwrights Kitten Food pots (not pouches) are better quality. Also maybe have a look at the Tempt Me range of Hilife Kitten, and Natures Menu Kitten. Or consider doing as many of us do and buy wet food online in bulk. The Happy Kitty Co imports excellent quality canned foods from Germany which are much more affordable than good quality UK cat foods.

https://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/cat-food/Kitten

If you do still want to give her a few pieces of dry food a day as treats, choose a make that is low in carbs. Thrive Premium Plus is the lowest in carbs, highest in protein, and can be bought online or from Holland and Barrett.

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/sh...s-salmon-herring-grain-free-cat-food-60027918

Please let us know how things go.


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## Attackonliv

Hi! 

Thank you for your response. She is due to be spayed this month. We have the door flap removed on her covered tray and I'm sure I can add another one. I'll make sure she gets her wet food, we only keep the dry food down in case she's hungry between meals. I'll get back to you and let you know if these tips help!


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## chillminx

Hi, I just noticed on re-reading your original post you said you change the litter every 2 days. Not sure if you mean you scoop the deposits every 2 days, or whether you mean you discard all the litter every 2 days and replace with new litter.

a/ If it is the first, (scooping every 2 days) this is not frequent enough, especially with only one tray. Using a good clumping litter such as Worlds Best, and two trays, the litter should be scooped at least twice a day. Poo should be removed as soon as possible after it's deposited.

b/ If it is the second (discarding all the litter every 2 days and replacing with new), then I am guessing you are using a non-clumping clay litter, or a wood pellet litter ? If so, then the whole litter needs discarding at the end of every day and refilling with new.

With a non-clumping litter it is difficult to scoop the wet bits without leaving some soiled parts behind which contaminate the rest of the litter, thus making all the litter smell strongly of urine. For a clean cat this is very off-putting. The answer is to switch to a good quality clumping litter and scoop twice a day.

I think switching to a clumping litter and scooping twice a day, adding an extra tray, and increasing her wet food intake, may well be the answer. And having her spayed.


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## Attackonliv

Hi!

Yeah, we replace the litter fully every two days - we don't use a clumping litter, but when I go to buy her litter next week I'll buy a clumping litter. We remove the deposits whenever she poops, so there's never poop lying in the tray. I've added a second tray as per your suggestion but she hasn't used it yet - I'm sure she'll get around too it. She's a voracious eater and will gobble up whatever we put down, and she's had two packets of wet food today already. Like I said, she's eating a drinking well, playing and being her usual self outside of the accidents.

However, I have noticed she only seems to pee on the bed. We've put her on a bedroom ban and we think this could be a scent-markation thing, so hopefully that'll stop once she gets spayed this month. As for the poop, it seems to scare her more than it does us. She'll be sitting fine and then suddenly start running around the house, leaving a trail of poop in her wake. The consistency varies from solid to very watery. As I type this she's attacking the side of my laptop and being her playful self, so I'm hesitant to think there's any illness involved. I also went and checked all her usual sitting and hiding spots yesterday evening and gave them a good clean, just in case she licked or ate anything that upset her stomach.

Thank you for all your help with this, I'll keep you updated on her progress!


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## chillminx

The sudden involuntary dropping of poo before she can get to the tray, can often be a sign of constipation. The watery poo that comes out is called "constipation overflow". It is what seeps out around the solid faeces that she can't pass because they are too hard to evacuate. 

It sounds very much that she is not getting enough fluid in her diet. I would cut right back on the dry food, (just give a few pieces per day as treats). Keep with the higher level of wet food. Add a teaspoon of water to her wet food meals. Leave wet food in an auto-feeder for her during the day. 

At 6 mths old she still has a lot of growing to do, and she will have a big appetite. Let her eat as much as she wants - of wet food. The fact she gobbles up her food suggests she is getting very hungry. Feeding her 4 times a day is best at her age. 

To give you an idea of quantities - my girls at 6 mths old were each eating 400 grams of wet food a day (= 4 x 100 gram pouches per day each) and they were/are small slim cats.


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## Attackonliv

Thank you again for your response, you're a wealth of kitty knowledge!

I cut back on her dry food last night - she's on her fourth pouch of wet food as I type, and this time I added a teaspoon of water in with it. What you're describing sounds exactly like what she's experiencing - today she passed a hard stool but then ran across the living room and left a trail of sludge behind her. Compared to yesterday when the entirety of her poop was sludge, this is a good sign! It's strange because when we first had her, I was happily giving her four pouches a day - it was only when our vet said she should only be on two that we cut her back down and began putting dry food down in case she got hungry between meals.

I'll keep you updated on her progress - she's definitely grateful for all your help, as am I! I've attached a photo below so you can see our beautiful girly!


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## chillminx

Aww, she is gorgeous isn't she! Look at that little face! I love black cats! (one of mine is mainly black with a tiny white bib) 

Sounds as though things are 'moving' in the right direction in the 'poo department'  

I think your instinct to feed her 4 pouches of wet was the right one. I would go back to that. I don't believe in rationing kittens' food. They use up so much energy playing and exploring and they need lots of protein to help build strong muscles. I have never yet had an overweight kitten on a wet food diet. 

Looking forward to more updates.


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## LewisH

Hi @chillminx and others!

I've had a little progress I think.

Unfortunately the rescue I got H&M from didn't have any of the trays that they came with, so I'll try again this weekend.

[email protected] are utterly useless, very little options for litter. I ended up with the Catsan ultra fine clumping litter. Its only a small bag so only filled their main tray for now. It seems that if it's clean, H will use it for poop and pee as will M (but she'd use anything anyway!)

So tonight I'll be getting more to fill the other trays. He didn't use it yesterday, but I think that's because it was dirty (they both pooped while I was at work).

M loves it, she can happily bury her poop so I now have to play the game of sift the tray!

I'm hoping this is another step towards poop free floors!


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## chillminx

Aha, definitely a step in the right direction Lewis! Well done.  It's possible providing the fine granular type of litter will solve the problem.

Maybe the exact type of tray is not so important. I am thinking perhaps if H insists on having a clean tray to poo and pee in, you may need an extra tray for days when you are out at work and not there to scoop promptly.

[email protected] sells the Worlds Best corn-based litter on line btw. It is better at absorbing odours than Catsan, and I have never known a cat who doesn't like using it. But Catsan is OK in an emergency.

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/p...st-cat-litter-original?pageSize=45&orderBy=1#


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## LewisH

Thanks!

I will see how I go with the Catsan for now. I did try Cats best before, but again that was a one tray test. So it may be I just try with some of the finer litters until they are happy.


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## chillminx

That's OK.  . (Worlds Best is much finer granules than Cats Best btw. Mine prefer WB. ).


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## LewisH

@chillminx

Even more progress!

I.moved their favourite tray into the spare room. I've just watched H use one of the bigger trays for a big poop! (Even after 10mins of "should I, shouldn't I").

Let's hope the next few days are add positive!


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## chillminx

Excellent news Lewis! By George I think H has got it!!! 

Fingers crossed for continued progress.


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## LewisH

Progress is good. Still aiming for the tray.

The Catsan clumping ran out, so tried the Morrison own brand ultra-fine. They like it, but it's not as good. Imagine thick porridge, especially as H could pee for England!

I may give Worlds Best a try, but not from Pets at Home, so expensive! Amazon are half the price!


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## chillminx

Pleased the news is good! 

Sorry I had forgotten Amazon now sells it. At a good price too! I have always bought my WB from Zooplus, but the Amazon price now matches it!

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_litter/worlds_best_cat_litter


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## Attackonliv

Hi there again guys!

So, after changing litter and keeping the second tray in the living room we managed to stop the pooping! She continued peeing in the bedroom so we have been keeping her out, And more wet food has made her poops more solid.

Sadly, the day after having her spayed she began watery pooping in the living room again. We're guessing that it's from the stress of the vets, but hopefully in the next few days she goes back to pooping well. I'm going to get some feliway for the bedroom in the next week and hopefully that'll help with the peeing.

Thanks for all your continued help


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## Purple Focus

Kizzy is a 10 year old rescue, no history really.

We moved into a new groundfloor flat, with no issues, then after maybe 3 months she started missing / peeing outside of her box.

She pees with her bum pointing towards the edge of the box, and occasionally it will hit the ledge and stream out.

I tried various large storage boxes from bnq. it still happens on and off. She likes woodpellet only, have tried clay sand granuels, worlds best - she only likes wood pellet.

She has two boxes, as if she has pooed in one while we are out, she wont pee in it. She is vey fussy, we clear her mess after every pee and poo when we can immediately otherwise she refuses to use the box. She ALWAYS poos in a box, but will pee out of a box if theres poo in any of them.....

So we have several boxes, clean them daily, most of the time she manages to pee in them without missing.

We went away for a short weekend break, had a friend look after her, and this is when she started peeing in the livingroom under the table and at the front door.

Since then, this has now developed into her peeing at the front door EVERYTIME WE LEAVE THE FLAT.

I think it is a nervous thing? We have had her to the vets, we have feliway in the hall, we have now put a box under the table, and at the door, she still pees at the door every time we go out for work or college.

Can anyone help ? She has wrecked our NEW wood floor in the hall....... but we love her and dont want to give her up.

We have started keeping her in the livingroom when we go out, but she pees at the livingroom door instead... but rather that floor than the hall wood floor.

She is an outdoor cat, but because catprotection had her for 3 months, and we fostered her for 6 months, she has not been outdoors for maybe 9 months.

We look to get a flap in the window, but we leave the window open daily, she will climb up onto the window on her hind legs and sniff, but wont jump out ? (its winter) We have lifted her out and she scrambles back into the window like a bullet!

She has started to paw at the front door, but we live in a fat with communal halls, there are 3 internal doors which wont allow her out. We would prefer her to use the window. we let her out into the hall daily and she likes to sit out there and groom. but we woulf liek her to use the window if she needs to be outside.

Any ideas ?
is the peeing anxiety or that she wants outside?


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## chillminx

Hello @Purple Focus and welcome. 

Can I ask whether you have had Kizzy checked by the vet since she began house soiling, to see if she has a UTI or cystitis? Both these can cause litter box avoidance.

Any sudden change in behaviour is always worth investigating as a possible health issue. Kizzy is not yet in her senior years but at 10 yrs old it is worth having her seen by the vet annually for a health check including a blood test for chronic diseases of older cats e.g. hyperthyroid disease, chronic kidney disease, high BP, and Diabetes Type 2.

Thank you for the useful drawing showing the layout of your home.  Looking at it I see you have the 2 litter boxes in one room (the store room). To a cat this represents one toilet, not two, so you do need to put another tray elsewhere in the home. so she has at least two separate toilet areas.

It is not unusual for cats to dislike peeing in a tray that has pee in it. My two female cats are the same and for that reason I have 4 trays for them, and scoop the poo as soon as possible after it has been deposited.

With the problem of Kizzy peeing over the side of the box, have you tried giving her covered litter boxes? If you do, please remove the door flaps as cats dislike being totally enclosed when they are at toilet, it is a security issue for them.

We use wood pellets at the shelter as it is a very cheap litter, but being a non clumping it is impossible to separate the soiled stuff from the clean stuff when scooping deposits. So the whole content of the tray becomes contaminated with the smell of urine or poo making it essential to empty the whole tray out every day, wash the tray and refill with new litter. Otherwise there is a risk of the cat avoiding the litter box and not wanting to stand in it for fear of soiling their feet.

The alternative is to use the Sieve Tray which is designed for economical use with wood pellets.

http://www.brit-pet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BSH0001

Generally most cats prefer fine granular litter, as it is most like the sand their desert dwelling ancestors would have used. So Kizzy is unusual in disliking granular litters such as Cats Best and Worlds Best.

The peeing against the door could be due perhaps to separation anxiety when you leave. Are you able to give her plenty of reassuring attention before you leave. If you are going to be gone all day do you leave wet food for her in an autofeeder? Timed to open about 4 hours after her last meal. Also leave a radio on at a low volume playing soothing classical music

Diet wise, as she has these bladder problems she should be on a wet food diet only, no wet food at all. And I would add a little water to her wet food. Also encourage her to drink by placing several bowls of water around the home, and maybe a pet's water fountain too. Giving home made chicken broth is also a good way of increasing fluid intake. Cook a saucepanful using chicken drumsticks, store in ice cube trays, freeze and defrost a couple every day.

Possibly another reason for her peeing by doors is a statement that she wants to go out (as she has been an outdoor cat most of her life.). If you are going to leave a ground floor window open for her you need to put something outside the window for her to jump on to when she goes out. Otherwise she is unlikely to want to go out and come in that way.

Cat flaps can easily be fitted in exterior walls - I have done so in my house as I did not want the flap in the double glazed back door. You need a tunnel accessory as well as the cat flap. It took a builder a couple of hours to do the work and cost about £100 in labour. This would be a safer way for Kizzy to exit and enter the home than through an open window and she might be more interested in going out, especially when the weather gets warmer.


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## Purple Focus

When Kizzy was peeing 2-3 times a day at the front door we took her to the vets - she was checked over, and took a urine sample with negative result, the vet said it was behavioural and gave us guidance which we have followed.

We now have a litterbox under the table, one in the store and one at the front door (although not perfect as we cant put it there when out of the house)


Have bought several covered, she users for a few days then ignores them.... 

Im going to try worlds best again, I have laid out worlds best, and generic fine sand clay, she only goes for the pellet, I actually am pretty good at clearing the wet pellets completely, I have an extra large scoop with a sieve, scoop the entier corner which is damp, including non-wet pellets and dump the lot, usually replace that corner with new fresh.

I think the issue is seperation anxiety, if we leave the flat for 5 minutes, we can return to the door wet - it all started when we went away for a short break, I will try all of the above, thank you 

Thanks - she is wet only, dont think she has bladder issues, vet did tests.

Thanks, we are fitting the large petdoor microchip into our front window, there is a small lower panel which we are getting re-fitted, and I have built a platform for her outside. 

Will keep everyone updated with kizzy and her progress.


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## MoCat

Oh my! Eyes now wide open. .. already got another tray n filled while reading ur post! Really good advice throughout. I will take it on board n see how it goes! I'm away to reclean my rug with fairy instead of bleach products. Thank you


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## NutterButter

Hello, I wonder if anyone can help? We have this adorable, male cat which we got from the CPL in October. He's now about 1 years old. He's a very confident, playful little cat. The one issue that we have with him is that he will not use his litter tray for poops. He choose to go as close to the front door as possible. He does pee in the litter tray. He used to use it fine when we got him, then he stopped for some reason. He still uses it for pee. I'll include as much information as I can think of below, but please let me know if you need any more info.

We used to use the wood pellet type litter. The first thing we tried was swapping back to Catsan. This worked briefly, but then he stopped using it again.
We make sure he always has clean litter and a choice of trays in different locations.
We have another cat, but the other cat doesn't use litter trays and will only go outdoors.
Now that it's summer and he's getting out more, he tends to wait until outside so we have not had an incident in a long time. His routine was disrupted though as we had him in a cattery and this morning he went on the carpet at the door again.
We took him to the vet shortly after he started doing this and the vet said he was perfectly healthy, but may have been every so slightly constipated. He gave us some laxative, which we used for a while. Not sure if this made a difference to his toilet behaviour or not, as that's when he started going out.
Outside, he goes in our garden and buries it fine.
We put a mat in front of the door and he now goes at the side of it. If we put litter trays where he is going, then he works around them.
The other cat was outside last night, so there was no possibility of it being interaction between the two of them that stopped him from using the litter tray.

There's a lot of information at the top posts in this page, so I'll go through all of this too. I don't really know how we address this behaviour though, as it's always first thing in the morning that I find something so we're never there to correct him or reward at the time he goes. We will really need to get this sorted while he is as young as possible and before winter comes back when he'll get out less.

Thanks in advance!


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## chillminx

Hello @NutterButter and welcome 

If a cat has 'abnormal' poo, i.e. he is constipated or has loose stools, it can cause him to avoid the litter tray and poo elsewhere. This is because he associates the litter tray with discomfort.

Are your cat's poos now of a normal consistency - firm and formed, not hard and dry? And no sign of straining?

At his age, on a wet food diet he should be pooing about once every 24 hours, twice at most. Is this about the rate for your cat?

What do you feed him? A cat who has any kind of bowel issue (e.g. soiling) should be fed a wet food diet (or raw food with plenty of fluids). There is a risk of constipation with dry food as very few cats are able to drink enough fluids to hydrate a mainly dry food diet. Ideally in this situation his diet should be about 95% wet food (or raw).

If you usually leave dry food down all day I would take it up and instead leave some meals of wet food in a timed autofeeder. I have found this one very reliable :-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Mate-C...F8&qid=1527519975&sr=8-1&keywords=cat+mate+20

You mention he has several litter trays. This is excellent because many cats prefer to pee and poo in separate trays, so he should have at least 2 trays for himself.

Are the trays open or covered ones? if they are covered trays make sure they are tall enough for the cat to squat upright inside (as cats do when defecating). If they are covered it might be worth experimenting by changing them all for open trays.

Does he have access to all his trays all the time? i.e. the door to the room (or rooms) is not closed sometimes?

I am not keen on Catsan. Some of the Catsan types are non-clumping which means the trays get very smelly unless they are emptied out every day, washed and refilled with fresh litter. Some types of Catsan (I think it is the silica type) have sharp pieces in them which could hurt soft paws.

I recommend experimenting by putting an extra tray down with a different litter. Cats generally like a tray filled with litter than is unscented, fine grained similar to sand, and clumping. The cereal based litters are popular e.g. Worlds Best which acts like a magnet to most cats, a trial bag can be bought from [email protected]

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cat/cat/cat-litter-21103--1/worlds-best-cat-litter-original

Or there is Cats Best Oko Plus, which is made from fine wood granules.

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/cat/cat/cat-litter-21103--1/oko-wood-litter-30l

If he likes either of these litters they can be bought much cheaper online in larger bags, e.g. Zooplus

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_litter/worlds_best_cat_litter/136586

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_litter/cats_best

It is good to remember he's not pooing on the floor out of naughtiness or laziness. He's trying to tell you something's wrong with the trays, the litter, or with his bowel. (If the other cat also used the trays that might be a possible cause of the soiling, but not in this case as your other cat toilets outside). So using correction/reward is not the way to deal with the soiling problem. Instead try to identify, through observation, what is causing the problem, and through trial and error find a solution.

Good luck. Please let us know how things go.


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## NutterButter

Thank you so much for your lengthy reply.

Hi Stools seem normal. Not hard at all. Maybe even a little wet.

Yes, he is going about once per day.

Currently feed him 50/50 wet/dry. We have him on adult food, as they both eat the same foods. We actually have an auto-feeder in the garage, so will look at using it. 

I'll experiment with the litter types. I don't like Catsan either due to the cost, but it looked like that was what would fix the problem initially, although it was only temporary.


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## chillminx

Experimenting with litter types seems a good idea.  Pets at Home is good for trial sizes of the litters I mentioned.

Just to add that, if you find he likes Cats Best Oko Plus or Worlds Best you can buy a very similar type of granular litter called Super Benek, which is made of corn. It is very good value for money, (around £20 for a 26 kg bag), but AFAIK is only sold online, from places such as Zooplus, Bitiba, or Amazon.

I am in the process of switching my cats' litter trays from Worlds Best to Super Benek, and with 7 litter trays in the house it will save me a fortune in cat litter costs!

This is Super Benek (always get the unscented one)

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_litter/super_benek/461099

and

http://www.bitiba.co.uk/shop/cats_accessories/cat_litter/super_benek/super_benek/494737

Also, when you find poo on the floor, place it in the nearest litter tray and leave it for a while. You don't need to show it to your cat, he will notice it. The aim is to reinforce the idea that poo belongs in the tray (but not to chastise him). You can cover the transferred poo with litter if you wish, your cat will still know it is there as he will smell it.

I forgot to ask you this before - does he ever use the trays for poo?


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## NutterButter

chillminx said:


> Also, when you find poo on the floor, place it in the nearest litter tray and leave it for a while. You don't need to show it to your cat, he will notice it. The idea is to reinforce the idea that poo belongs in the tray (but not to chastise him). You can cover the transferred poo with litter if you wish, your cat will still know it is there as he will smell it.


Aah, good idea!



> I forgot to ask you this before - does he ever use the trays for poo?


He used to, but now it's always either outdoors or if he's not out early enough in the same spot in front of the door.

Outside, he started off going on the grass and then making motions as though he was burying it. He must have learned though, as he now goes in my wife's flowerbeds. She's very happy with that! lol


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## JulieAD

Hey, hoping I can get some advice and nip a soiling problem in the bud!

Tasha is all settled in, everything has been fine for the last month but this past weekend I went away Friday lunchtime to Sunday evening and my neighbour cat-sat. When I got back I found that Tasha had pooed twice on the floor behind the futon, which is next to her litter tray, presumably sometime after the neighbour did the evening feed on Saturday (she said she noticed a smell on Sunday morning but wasn't used to my litter so thought it was just not good at odours). Tasha has never had a problem using the litter tray before - I usually scoop once/twice a day depending on what time she poos, so I have left urine alone before without a problem (I use World's Best so it's super clumping).

I scooped and cleaned up the mess and disinfected the floor Sunday night (fortunately it is laminate floor) and this morning she had pooed in the tray again as normal so I thought it wasn't a problem, but this evening she urinated in the tray and then two minutes later I realised she was scratching behind the futon and found a lovely fresh deposit. I am thinking given the timing that she found my absence a bit stressful - I know she apparently invaded my neighbour's house and harrassed their cat, but Jo didn't mention any other issues.

Anyway, after reading the stickys I've shifted the litter tray and futon round so that the tray is now over where she's pooed (after cleaning again, obviously). I changed the litter completely before I went away so it shouldn't be a cleanliness issue. Is there anything else I should do to try and encourage her using the tray again?


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## chillminx

Tasha needs at least 2 litter trays, and if she is an indoor cat I would give her 3 trays. But the bare minimum is two trays as cats like to have one tray for peeing in and one tray for pooing in. Cats who toilet outdoors never pee and poo in the same place, and we should allow them to exhibit this natural behaviour indoors with their litter trays.

Perhaps when you're at home Tasha manages to cope with just one tray. Perhaps you always scoop the poo more quickly than your cat sitter could do. And quite probably Tasha was missing you and feeling separation anxiety, and she was partly expressing her anxiety by soiling the floor.

It is not a good idea to move a litter tray from its usual spot, because the cat is accustomed to the toilet being in a particular place and therefore may continue to use the same spot even when the tray is no longer there.

By all means place a 2nd tray in the spot where she pooed behind the futon, but ideally the 2nd tray should be at least 10 ft away from the 1st tray, so Tasha sees she has two quite separate toilets.

My advice would be:

1/ to provide Tasha with a 2nd permanent tray, placed at least 10 ft away from the 1st tray (ideally in a different room)
2/ place a temporary tray on the spot where she pooed on the floor
3/ leave the 1st tray where it has always been.
4/ clean the floor thoroughly where she had pooed, with an enzymatic cleaner - Bio Tex stain remover is very good (buy it from Amazon)

If she still poos on the floor pick up the poo without comment and place the poo in the new litter tray for a few hours. Tasha will smell it there, there's need to show her.

When she realises she has 2 trays she may stop using the temporary tray you place on the spot where she soiled.


----------



## JulieAD

chillminx said:


> Tasha needs at least 2 litter trays, and if she is an indoor cat I would give her 3 trays. But the bare minimum is two trays as cats like to have one tray for peeing in and one tray for pooing in. Cats who toilet outdoors never pee and poo in the same place, and we should allow them to exhibit this natural behaviour indoors with their litter trays.
> 
> Perhaps when you're at home Tasha manages to cope with just one tray. Perhaps you always scoop the poo more quickly than your cat sitter could do. And quite probably Tasha was missing you and feeling separation anxiety, and she was partly expressing her anxiety by soiling the floor.
> 
> It is not a good idea to move a litter tray from its usual spot, because the cat is accustomed to the toilet being in a particular place and therefore may continue to use the same spot even when the tray is no longer there.
> 
> By all means place a 2nd tray in the spot where she pooed behind the futon, but ideally the 2nd tray should be at least 10 ft away from the 1st tray, so Tasha sees she has two quite separate toilets.
> 
> My advice would be:
> 
> 1/ to provide Tasha with a 2nd permanent tray, placed at least 10 ft away from the 1st tray (ideally in a different room)
> 2/ place a temporary tray on the spot where she pooed on the floor
> 3/ leave the 1st tray where it has always been.
> 4/ clean the floor thoroughly where she had pooed, with an enzymatic cleaner - Bio Tex stain remover is very good (buy it from Amazon)
> 
> If she still poos on the floor pick up the poo without comment and place the poo in the new litter tray for a few hours. Tasha will smell it there, there's need to show her.
> 
> When she realises she has 2 trays she may stop using the temporary tray you place on the spot where she soiled.


Yeah, I realised after posting that moving things wasn't the best idea and moved them back!

Tasha is an outdoor cat now (in fact the cat flap is being installed as I type so I can stop propping the door open). Thanks for the stain remover recommendation, and I guess I will be tray shopping... and any other trays 10ft away will have to be in a different room! Which means I now have to choose between my bedroom (upstairs) or the room where I/guests eat (downstairs) ...dilemma.


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## chillminx

A 2nd tray in a hallway, or on the landing outside your bedroom is OK. Bathroom is OK as long as Tasha always has access to it.

Does Tasha toilet outdoors? My two girls, who are restricted to a cat proofed garden, do not. They always come back indoors to use their trays when they need to. The boys are shut indoors at night so they use litter trays through the night. Is Tasha shut in at night? 

Was she shut indoors while you were away? If so it may partly account for why she soiled the floor - not having access to outdoors as she usually does.


----------



## JulieAD

chillminx said:


> A 2nd tray in a hallway, or on the landing outside your bedroom is OK. Bathroom is OK as long as Tasha always has access to it.
> 
> Does Tasha toilet outdoors? My two girls, who are restricted to a cat proofed garden, do not. They always come back indoors to use their trays when they need to. The boys are shut indoors at night so they use litter trays through the night. Is Tasha shut in at night?
> 
> Was she shut indoors while you were away? If so it may partly account for why she soiled the floor - not having access to outdoors as she usually does.


Unfortunately my bathroom is too small for a tray, landing may be an option though.

I'm not sure if she toilets outdoors, but I suspect not as I haven't noticed much change in tray use since I started letting her out. I do keep her in at night but when she's out she isn't restricted to my garden. My neighbour did let her out on the Saturday and Sunday, I would think all afternoon as she was out when I got back. Though perhaps it was because Tasha didn't have access to the tray for those periods - up until today when I got the cat flap she has had an open door for access when I'm in or has been in when I am out for any length of time.


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## iddybiddypoe

Hello. I have a 7 week kitten who has a big problem pooing in the house. We have a litter box upstairs (hidden behind a door to give him some privacy) which he uses most of the time and we also have a litter box downstairs, in the bathroom, which he used originally but now he hardly ever uses it and instead likes to poop in another room downstairs which people tend not to go in. He has been very inconsistent with his poop but has had no problem urinating in the correct place.

We recently bought him a new litter box which is much bigger than the one he was previously using. We also changed the litter to something that was supposed to be kitten attract and we increased the depth of the litter to around 3cm (taking advice from this thread). He was definitely attracted to it, he has been in the box lots of times, just not to actually poo. He seems to think of it as a giant sandbox to play in. Today he took a poop directly next to the new litter box downstairs. He did however poop correctly in the box upstairs with the new litter (although we did physically take him to it this morning.) 

Any help on trying to solve this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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## SuboJvR

iddybiddypoe said:


> Hello. I have a 7 week kitten who has a big problem pooing in the house. We have a litter box upstairs (hidden behind a door to give him some privacy) which he uses most of the time and we also have a litter box downstairs, in the bathroom, which he used originally but now he hardly ever uses it and instead likes to poop in another room downstairs which people tend not to go in. He has been very inconsistent with his poop but has had no problem urinating in the correct place.
> 
> We recently bought him a new litter box which is much bigger than the one he was previously using. We also changed the litter to something that was supposed to be kitten attract and we increased the depth of the litter to around 3cm (taking advice from this thread). He was definitely attracted to it, he has been in the box lots of times, just not to actually poo. He seems to think of it as a giant sandbox to play in. Today he took a poop directly next to the new litter box downstairs. He did however poop correctly in the box upstairs with the new litter (although we did physically take him to it this morning.)
> 
> Any help on trying to solve this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


How often is he pooping - is there any possibility of a medical reason causing him discomfort that he is associating with the litterbox? Has he been wormed? Is there any risk of his being exposed to any other gastrointestinal parasites?

I feel that he perhaps simply doesn't like where the downstairs litter box is and is trying to tell you though, but at so young an age I'm not sure how likely this is. When Joey was that young he avoided the litter box for poop when it caused him pain.


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## chillminx

@iddybiddypoe - hi and welcome 

What is the consistency of your kitty's poo? Is it soft? Or loose? Or firm and formed? If a cat or kitten has soft poo it can make them avoid the litter tray. It is a hygiene issue for them, instinctively they don't want to contaminate their litter tray with runny poo.

It could also be that if he has soft poo (or is constipated) that he is uncomfortable and he associates the tray with the discomfort so he avoids it for that reason.

I advise keeping a record of what his stools are like and see if there is a pattern of tray avoidance based on consistency of stools.

Cats need to have a firm stool in order to put the right amount of pressure in the rectum so the anal glands empty each time the cat defecates. If he doesn't have a firm stool 99% 
of the time then it's advisable to review his diet, and take him off all dry food.


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## Ragdollgirl123

Hi all, just come for some advice and wondered if anyone could help??

My cat is just about to turn 2 and has recently started to use the floor as a toilet for her number 2s. It is only in the area where our trays are that she decided she doesn’t want to use the trays. During the day when we work and they are locked in our kitchen/living room area, she will happily use all of the trays. They are the same trays and we just move them from room to room from day to night.

Recently she’s started going on the floor and will go out of her way to do it on the floor. She will walk past all the trays and then do it in a corner but just on random spots. It’s not just one spot she’s doing it on.

She was the runt of her litter and has always done softer/runnier number 2s. But since this new habit has started they have definitely become wetter despite no change to her diet or any environmental issues or changes at home(she’s had a brother and sister for over a year and all three get along) so I’m really stumped as to why she’s started the habit/why they are wetter.

Her appetite has not changed and in regards to her mood she’s still playing and being her regular self.

We have 4 litter trays and have removed hoods because we found that the cats didn’t really like the hood.

I am almost thinking she’s starting to trick me because I heard her on the litter and digging but when I went to pick it up, she’d gone on the carpet!

She is using the trays for wees. It is just poop!

Does anyone have any tips for me? As mad it sounds, I have tried to have a chat with her and ask her not to do it on the floor but surprisingly she doesn’t really understand me and looks at me like I’m mad!


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## chillminx

Hello @Ragdollgirl123 and welcome 

There is a direct connection between the runny poos and your cat avoiding the litter tray. It can be due to the cat's natural instinct not to want to contaminate their litter trays with diarrhoea, and/or the cat being in discomfort in her bowel from the runny poos and hence making a negative association between the litter tray and defecation. She will therefore avoid the tray and poo nearby, believing it will be more comfortable for her.

To resolve the problem will mean identifying the cause of the soft or runny poos. It is not normal for cats to have soft or runny poos and is either diet-related (allergy or food intolerance) or caused by a bowel infection or parasite.

Has she been treated for worms since the runny poos started?

What do you feed her?

What make of litter do you use?


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## JulieAD

chillminx said:


> A 2nd tray in a hallway, or on the landing outside your bedroom is OK. Bathroom is OK as long as Tasha always has access to it.
> 
> Does Tasha toilet outdoors? My two girls, who are restricted to a cat proofed garden, do not. They always come back indoors to use their trays when they need to. The boys are shut indoors at night so they use litter trays through the night. Is Tasha shut in at night?
> 
> Was she shut indoors while you were away? If so it may partly account for why she soiled the floor - not having access to outdoors as she usually does.


So update on the Tasha situation: after I got the second tray upstairs, she went back to using the first tray as normal for a while and occasionally peed in the 2nd. But last Sunday she decided to poo in the corner of the room where tray 1 is (not the same corner as previously). I thought it might be because she had peed in both 1 and 2 while I was out and the next day she went back to using tray 1 as before. Then Tuesday morning she pooed in the corner while I was scooping pee from tray 1, so I put some of that in tray 2 to encourage her to use that. Wednesday morning, same thing but this time I moved tray 2 down to what I am now calling Poo(h) Corner. She made a lot of noise about it but did then use it a couple of times for both kinds of toilet (she now appears to be ignoring tray 1). Until this morning when she squeezed herself down the side of tray 2 just so she could poo on the floor instead!

Both trays are the same kind, CatIt covered litters, and I'm using World's Best litter in both. Before I moved tray 2 there was a dining room chair in Poo Corner with a bit of a gap to the wall and she would poo behind that. Is it likely to be worth trying with the lid off tray 2?

I have been trying to wean her onto better quality cat food since last Monday as well as I thought things were back to normal (Naturo wet food and Thrive dry). Could this also be contributing? Her poo seems pretty normal, not dry and hard or very soft and she has been eating normally while I've been gradually changing ratios. She wasn't very keen on eating this morning when I tried her on just the Naturo but that may have been because the room was pretty smelly still - she ate a mix of Naturo/Felix again happily enough in a different room when she wouldn't go for it in the room with the trays.

Gah. Any advice would be more than welcome please, I'm getting fairly stressed about the whole thing because I am trying hard to be a good cat person and keep Tasha healthy and happy and clearly something isn't right.


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## chillminx

Hi @JulieAD, sorry to hear there are still problems with Tasha soiling. Thank you for the update.

I would definitely try both trays with the lids off. Some cats are much happier with open trays, especially for pooing in.

Good you are providing Worlds Best litter; I think it's unlikely therefore to be the litter that is upsetting her. What depth do you put in the trays? I find about 4 cms depth is about right.

I am wondering if the change in diet could be, as you say, contributing to her soiling again. You mention her stools are not hard and dry or "very soft" but if they are softish at all, then it could cause a problem from her POV. Cat stools do need to be quite firm in order to put the right amount of pressure in the rectum to make the anal gland sacs empty during defecation.

Resolving these kind of soiling problems can be pretty frustrating, as so much is by trial and error, trying to guess what is upsetting the cat. I understand it is stressful, but please do your utmost to stay as calm as possible as Tasha will without doubt sense your stress and it will make her anxious and possibly make the soiling worse.

Please believe me you are very much being a "good cat person" in trying your best to find out what is wrong and put it right for Tasha. 

We will get there in the end, between us; just got to keep on trying things out. 

Let us know how things go with the open trays, OK


----------



## JulieAD

chillminx said:


> Hi @JulieAD, sorry to hear there are still problems with Tasha soiling. Thank you for the update.
> 
> I would definitely try both trays with the lids off. Some cats are much happier with open trays, especially for pooing in.
> 
> Good you are providing Worlds Best litter; I think it's unlikely therefore to be the litter that is upsetting her. What depth do you put in the trays? I find about 4 cms depth is about right.
> 
> I am wondering if the change in diet could be, as you say, contributing to her soiling again. You mention her stools are not hard and dry or "very soft" but if they are softish at all, then it could cause a problem from her POV. Cat stools do need to be quite firm in order to put the right amount of pressure in the rectum to make the anal gland sacs empty during defecation.
> 
> Resolving these kind of soiling problems can be pretty frustrating, as so much is by trial and error, trying to guess what is upsetting the cat. I understand it is stressful, but please do your utmost to stay as calm as possible as Tasha will without doubt sense your stress and it will make her anxious and possibly make the soiling worse.
> 
> Please believe me you are very much being a "good cat person" in trying your best to find out what is wrong and put it right for Tasha.
> 
> We will get there in the end, between us; just got to keep on trying things out.
> 
> Let us know how things go with the open trays, OK


She used the uncovered tray in Poo Corner! I'm not prepared to let off fireworks yet, but hope is kindled  (I was so excited by that and that Tasha had actually covered it I forgot to check how hard it was though.) I do use about 4-5cm depth in both the trays, so I think that is okay.

I am persevering with the diet change, though a little more slowly - I think I will keep mixing in a bit of the junk-food Felix for the next few days and see how we go.

Thank you for the reassurance, I was feeling a tad overwhelmed the other day. I think Tasha lulled me into a false sense of security by being so good at litter tray use for the first couple of months!


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## Baby blossom

Hello all, new to this forum but I am DESPERATE and looking for advice! We have a male Russian Blue cat, he is about eleven months old and very energetic. He recently (around one month ago) started marking periodically in our bedroom but we managed to stop this behaviour (we had locked him out of our bedroom after having a baby because he likes to lay on our faces and we were concerned he might accidentally suffocate her, but she is older now) by letting him back into our bedroom. However, this morning before leaving the house I noticed he peed - without marking all over our front entry way. Any idea why this might happen? And advice on what to do? I love my cat dearly and refuse to even consider re-homing him.


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## chillminx

Hello @Baby blossom and welcome 

Is your cat neutered? If not book him in straight away to be done. Scent marking with urine is more common in an un-neutered cat, though neutered cats may do it too.

Inappropriate urination should always be investigated by the vet. Your cat might have FLUTD (Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease) either with a UTI (urinary tract infection) or Feline cystitis (without an infection). Whatever the case he would need treatment.

Cats with FLUTD may avoid using the litter trays because they associate the litter trays with pain. Instead they pee on soft surfaces like beds as a way of comforting themselves.

How many litter trays do you provide for your cat ?

If the vet finds no physical cause for your cat soiling then, as you suspect, your cat is probably scent marking. This is possibly because he was shut out of your bedroom. It made him feel anxious and insecure, he saw the baby as a rival for your attention, hence he marked with his scent to claim your bedroom as his territory, and you as his major resource.

Another possibility is that he is scent marking in response to a cat (or cats) that comes into your garden and sprays, or sprays in the entry way. .Scent marking is not always done by spraying urine, squatting and peeing can be used when scent marking too.

If your cat is neutered he could be responding to an un-neutered tom cat who is spraying around the outside of your house.

Do you have a microchipped cat flap so no strange cats can get into your house?

Are there a number of cats in your neighbourhood? There could be squabbles over territory and resources if there are too many cats living in one area.

You may need to shut your cat out of your bedroom until you have resolved the soiling issue.

The thing I have found most helpful in reducing indoor scent-marking is a supplement called Zylkene. It comes in capsules which you open and add the powder to food. I give a course for a month at a time for effect.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zylkene-75...1626879&sr=8-2&keywords=zylkene+75mg+for+cats

Also, a cat with any kind of urinary problem needs a wet food diet, no dry food. The wet food diet makes the urine more dilute, more comfortable to pass, and less likelihood of cystitis developing.

Clean up any urine stains with an enzyme stain remover. I use Bio Tex Stain Remover, but a solution of bio laundry liquid works too. (though Bio Tex is less soapy!) It is essential to remove all traces of the urine smell or your cat may keep going back to the same spots again and again, to mark. Same applies to the entry way, give it a good clean to get rid of the smell.


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## Attackonliv

Attackonliv said:


> Hi there again guys!
> 
> So, after changing litter and keeping the second tray in the living room we managed to stop the pooping! She continued peeing in the bedroom so we have been keeping her out, And more wet food has made her poops more solid.
> 
> Sadly, the day after having her spayed she began watery pooping in the living room again. We're guessing that it's from the stress of the vets, but hopefully in the next few days she goes back to pooping well. I'm going to get some feliway for the bedroom in the next week and hopefully that'll help with the peeing.
> 
> Thanks for all your continued help


Hi guys!

Thought it might be helpful to update on what worked and what didn't. We ended up using two large litter trays, and we put one in the living room where she was pooping a lot. After being spayed, she was still peeing in the bedroom also. We bought some Feliway Classic for the bedroom, and she immediately stopped peeing in there. After a few days, she began using the living room litter tray. We also got a moving water fountain which she preferred to the bowl, and she began drinking far more, which stopped the constipation overflow issue. We also kept her on two wet food pouches a day, with a little bit of dry food for a snack if she wants.

Hope this helps anyone looking for advice that works


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## chillminx

Hi @Attackonliv - thank you for the update 

I'm very pleased to hear you've discovered what works for your cat, and the soiling problem is now solved. Well done!


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## Emskielou

Hiya. My cat has been soiling just in front of her litter tray on and off for a couple of years now. Ive had enough and I’ve tried everything.. more trays, relocation or trays, different litter, closed tray open tray, feliway, cleaning them more regularly....even got a cat flap that she won’t use. She hates going outside in winter too which I don’t think helps. I really can’t afford a cat behaviourist and at her annual very check ups they never pick anything up that’s wrong with her. And surly if she was poorly there would be other signs of this? Any suggestions?


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## chillminx

Hello @Emskielou and welcome 

Before I reply to your question, could I ask for a little more information about your cat please?

e.g.

How old is she?

Is she spayed?

Is she your only pet?

What foods do you feed her?

With house soiling problems it is often a matter of trying different things to see what helps. I appreciate you have already tried a lot of things and nothing has worked so far, but I hope t may be able suggest something to try, once I have read your next reply.


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## Emskielou

chillminx said:


> Hello @Emskielou and welcome
> 
> Before I reply to your question, could I ask for a little more information about your cat please?
> 
> e.g.
> 
> How old is she?
> 
> Is she spayed?
> 
> Is she your only pet?
> 
> What foods do you feed her?
> 
> With house soiling problems it is often a matter of trying different things to see what helps. I appreciate you have already tried a lot of things and nothing has worked so far, but I hope t may be able suggest something to try, once I have read your next reply.


Hiya.

Thank you.

She is about 5 and spayed. We have another female cat, similar age, also spayed. Florence the one that's messing I think is a very sensitive soul so I don't think that helps. She also loves attention, she's a proper lap cat when she gets the chance. She hides if we have children round or there's more noise that usual and she hasn't ever had the courage to go out the front of the house or jump over our stair gates.
We don't have any other pets, just a toddler! I feed them only dry food - Iams vitality. They used to also have wet food but they can be sick a lot after they eat so biscuits seemed to be slightly better. I also use wooden littler pellets, have also tried the standard litter too.
Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you


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## chillminx

Hi, @Emskielou and thank you for your reply. 

There are potentially several reasons why Florence could be soiling the floor: One is that she she may not be getting on well with your other cat. As you say the soiling started about 2 years ago, this would have been when Florence was about 3 yrs old and this is the time when cats are socially fully mature. And the time when they can become most protective of their resources. (litter trays are a major resource for cats, second only to food and water). The signs that the two cats don't get along may only be subtle, not easily noticed by humans.

As you have 2 cats you need at least 3 litter trays. Three is the absolute minimum. But as you are having this soiling issue I would provide 4 trays. Generally open trays are best, so the cats can see around themselves when they are toileting and feel safer. Spread the trays around the home and not close together.

Cats do not usually like pooing in a tray that has pee in, or peeing in a tray that has poo in. It doesn't matter if it's their own poo or their feline housemate's poo. This is why for 2 cats you need a lot of trays. Put the litter in to a depth of around 5 cm so there is room for the cats to dig.

We use wood pellet litter at the shelter because it is incredibly cheap. The trays are emptied out and washed twice a day and refilled with new litter. This twice a day emptying out is essential because with wood pellets it is impossible to see which parts are soiled with urine and which parts are clean.

But some cats do not like wood pellets and soiling can be the effect of this. As Florence is soiling I'd provide a litter known to be well-liked by cats. Worlds Best Original acts like a magnet for most cats and I tend to recommend it when there are soiling issues. It is a clumping litter made from cereal.

Another well-liked litter is Cats Best Oko Plus, also a clumping litter, but a little cheaper than Worlds Best.

Both can be bought in bulk more cheaply from Zooplus (though Pets at Home sells smaller bags).

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_litter/worlds_best_cat_litter/136586

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_litter/cats_best/14001

So, either of these 2 litters, and open trays filled to a depth of 5 cms, and spread around the areas the cats use.

I meant to check with you that the soiling is urine and not poo? If it is urine then have you had a urinalysis done for Florence by the vet at the time she is soiling? It is possible she may have an intermittent urine infection (UTI). But equally possible she may have no urine infection but instead have feline cystitis (which can be stress related).

Generally speaking when a cat soils right beside the tray though it is because they don't like the type of litter or the type of tray.

A cat with any kind of urine problem ( such as soiling) should always be fed a wet food diet, high in meat protein. Never fed dry food. Dry food is high in carbs which cats can't process healthily and it also makes the urine too alkaline and more likely to harbour bacteria.

Cats are designed to eat their food with the moisture within it (their prey animals). They are not good drinkers of water, and as a result a cat on a dry food diet may suffer from chronic low level dehydration. This is no good for their bladder as it can encourage crystals to form in the bladder, irritating it.

Florence needs more volume of urine so the urine is more dilute and she is encouraged to pee more often. This will keep her bladder and urinary tract comfortable.

So a high meat protein grain free wet food diet is best for her. If she used to vomit on wet food then all wet food is not to blame, just certain foods. She may need feeding smaller meals frequently (e.g. 4 meals a day). Avoid foods such as Felix and Whiskas which contain veg protein extract and are low in meat protein, as well as grains and added sugars, all of which are unhealthy for cats.

Some foods to consider are : Country Hunter, Natures Menu, HiLife Chicken Dinner, Wellness Core Tender Cuts, Meowing Heads, Lily's Kitchen, Wainwrights tins of chicken or duck.

Or for better value for money buy from places such as Zooplus. They have a good policy of refunding for any unopened tins or packets of food your cat won't eat, so you are safe to buy things for Florence to try.

Always introduce new foods slowly, a bit a time along side the cat's regular food, to save upset tummies or vomiting.

Here's a link to an excellent pinned thread listing all the good quality wet foods from Zooplus. Choose foods that are 10% carbs or lower, for your cats' health:

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-just-the-good-stuff-work-in-progress.440844/

Please let us know how things go after you've tried the above suggestions. I am hopeful they will help, but if there is still a problem I can help further.


----------



## Emskielou

chillminx said:


> Hi, @Emskielou and thank you for your reply.
> 
> There are potentially several reasons why Florence could be soiling the floor: One is that she she may not be getting on well with your other cat. As you say the soiling started about 2 years ago, this would have been when Florence was about 3 yrs old and this is the time when cats are socially fully mature. And the time when they can become most protective of their resources. (litter trays are a major resource for cats, second only to food and water). The signs that the two cats don't get along may only be subtle, not easily noticed by humans.
> 
> As you have 2 cats you need at least 3 litter trays. Three is the absolute minimum. But as you are having this soiling issue I would provide 4 trays. Generally open trays are best, so the cats can see around themselves when they are toileting and feel safer. Spread the trays around the home and not close together.
> 
> Cats do not usually like pooing in a tray that has pee in, or peeing in a tray that has poo in. It doesn't matter if it's their own poo or their feline housemate's poo. This is why for 2 cats you need a lot of trays. Put the litter in to a depth of around 5 cm so there is room for the cats to dig.
> 
> We use wood pellet litter at the shelter because it is incredibly cheap. The trays are emptied out and washed twice a day and refilled with new litter. This twice a day emptying out is essential because with wood pellets it is impossible to see which parts are soiled with urine and which parts are clean.
> 
> But some cats do not like wood pellets and soiling can be the effect of this. As Florence is soiling I'd provide a litter known to be well-liked by cats. Worlds Best Original acts like a magnet for most cats and I tend to recommend it when there are soiling issues. It is a clumping litter made from cereal.
> 
> Another well-liked litter is Cats Best Oko Plus, also a clumping litter, but a little cheaper than Worlds Best.
> 
> Both can be bought in bulk more cheaply from Zooplus (though Pets at Home sells smaller bags)
> 
> So, either of these 2 litters, and open trays filled to a depth of 5 cms, and spread around the areas the cats use.
> 
> I meant to check with you that the soiling is urine and not poo? If it is urine then have you had a urinalysis done for Florence by the vet at the time she is soiling? It is possible she may have an intermittent urine infection (UTI). But equally possible she may have no urine infection but instead have feline cystitis (which can be stress related).
> 
> Generally speaking when a cat soils right beside the tray though it is because they don't like the type of litter or the type of tray.
> 
> A cat with any kind of urine problem ( such as soiling) should always be fed a wet food diet, high in meat protein. Never fed dry food. Dry food is high in carbs which cats can't process healthily and it also makes the urine too alkaline and more likely to harbour bacteria.
> 
> Cats are designed to eat their food with the moisture within it (their prey animals). They are not good drinkers of water, and as a result a cat on a dry food diet may suffer from chronic low level dehydration. This is no good for their bladder as it can encourage crystals to form in the bladder, irritating it.
> 
> Florence needs more volume of urine so the urine is more dilute and she is encouraged to pee more often. This will keep her bladder and urinary tract comfortable.
> 
> So a high meat protein grain free wet food diet is best for her. If she used to vomit on wet food then all wet food is not to blame, just certain foods. She may need feeding smaller meals frequently (e.g. 4 meals a day). Avoid foods such as Felix and Whiskas which contain veg protein extract and are low in meat protein, as well as grains and added sugars, all of which are unhealthy
> 
> Here's a link to an excellent pinned thread listing all the good quality wet foods
> 
> Please let us know how things go after you've tried the above suggestions. I am hopeful they will help, but if there is still a problem I can help further.


Hi. Thank you so much for your advice. I will definitely take it all on board and give it a go.

In regards to the relationship between my cats - they have always appeared to get on as when they were smaller they used to curl up together and the older one would mother Florence a bit. However they sometimes do fight, but it always appears to me as play fighting. If my other cat is the cause how would I find out as if that's the case then I guess I would need to think about rehoming one?

Florence never wees on the floor, it's only poo she does on the floor in front of her tray. My other cat usually goes outside. And I always keep the litter clean and poo free. But will definitely try more trays and different litter etc. Anything to try resolve it. Would you suggest litter trays upstairs too? And do you think it's something I could eventually phase out as in an ideal world I don't really want that many if any in the house especially with a curious toddler! 
Thanks very much for all your help
Emma


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## chillminx

Emskielou said:


> Hi. Thank you so much for your advice. I will definitely take it all on board and give it a go.
> 
> In regards to the relationship between my cats - they have always appeared to get on as when they were smaller they used to curl up together and the older one would mother Florence a bit. However they sometimes do fight, but it always appears to me as play fighting. If my other cat is the cause how would I find out as if that's the case then I guess I would need to think about rehoming one?
> 
> Florence never wees on the floor, it's only poo she does on the floor in front of her tray. My other cat usually goes outside. And I always keep the litter clean and poo free. But will definitely try more trays and different litter etc. Anything to try resolve it. Would you suggest litter trays upstairs too? And do you think it's something I could eventually phase out as in an ideal world I don't really want that many if any in the house especially with a curious toddler!
> Thanks very much for all your help
> Emma


Hi Emma,

While it wouldn't be a good idea to phase out all the indoor litter trays especially as Florence has this tendency to soil, it may be possible eventually to reduce the number of trays to 2 (if your other cat always goes outside to toilet)

I am sorry I didn't realise the soiling is *poo *on the floor, not urine. Some of the advice I gave you in my previous reply still applies e.g. some cats do not like pooing in a tray that has pee in it.

And the fact is wood pellet litter is difficult to keep fresh, because it's hard to tell which bits are contaminated by urine. So unless you empty out the whole tray every time the trays are used by Florence or your other cat, then I really recommend you switch to one of the granular clumping litters I recommended, as it will be much easier to scoop and keep clean.

I would also put at least one tray upstairs if that is where Florence is spending most of her time at present. As far as keeping your toddler away from the tray you may need to fit a baby gate in the doorway of the room where the tray is kept. However as Florence doesn't like jumping over the stair gate she may be reluctant to climb over a baby gate in a doorway. So you could fit a cat flap to the room door and keep the door closed all the time. And train Florence to use the cat flap of the room to get to her tray.

However, one needs to make it as easy and straightforward for Florence to use her trays. I am a bit worried that if she has to learn to jump a baby gate or go through a cat flap to reach her trays it might put her off. But it is worth a try, and perhaps training her with rewards. If a new tray remains unused you can take her poo off the floor and place it in the new tray. You do not need to show her, she will find it by the scent of it. (as long as it is in a room she goes into of course).

With regard to Florence's poos, are they firm and formed, not soft or loose? if they are soft or loose that may be the reason she avoids the tray sometimes. Also if they are very hard and she has to strain to pass them (constipation) then she may also avoid the tray. This is because the cat associates the litter tray with discomfort.

Another possibility is Florence is scent marking (known as "middening" when poo is used for the purpose of marking). Florence would be doing this as a message to your other cat to tell her the tray is hers (Florence's). You mentioned that your other cat "usually" goes outdoors to toilet but if there are times when she does use the indoor trays then it's possible that is what Florence objects to as she sees the trays as being her resource. The solution if so, can be to add more trays (i.e the 3 or 4 I mentioned before).

Diet is also important. The risk with dry food is that she may not be getting enough fluids and her stools may be dry and hard to evacuate. Or a dry food diet being very high in calories may be too rich for her and is making her stools soft perhaps.

Do you measure out the exact amount of dry food per cat according to the instructions on the packet, and serve a portion of it for each meal several times a day? Or do you put down a bowlful for the day and let them snack on it all day? If the latter, then it is likely she is getting too rich a diet, and this may well be affecting her stool consistency.

A healthier diet of low carb, grain free, high meat protein wet food may help Florence feel more comfortable in her tummy and intestine. Worth a try anyway. 

Re: the 'play fighting' - it is hard to me to tell if it is play-fighting unless I can see an example of it on video. Is there any hissing, growling, yowling or shrieking ? Does any fur fly? Is it always your other cat who starts the 'fight'? Do the cats have plenty of places to go to indoors to get away from each other if they choose?


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## Helena91

I recently bought a kitten from an online advert. When I got her home I saw she was in a bad state, runny eyes and nose, fleas jumping off her, bloated belly. She didn't look 8 weeks either. I took her straight to the vet who agreed she probably was too young to leave her mother and treated her for fleas and worms. It's about 1 ½ weeks since then now and shes SO much better, however she's now having litter box issues. We have had to litter train her and she uses the box about 70% of the time now, but the rest of the time she will pee or poop elsewhere. I will watch her like a hawk, and I see her shuffling her butt and lifting her tail, I will put her in the tray and sometimes she will go, other times she will jump out and go back to the sofa or behind the tv unit and try again. I can move her back over and over till she is squealing and biting me when I put her in the tray and she will just not use it.... Is this normal? What should I do?


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## chillminx

Hello @Helena91 and welcome 

It is always best when litter training a young kitten to keep them contained in one room, with their food, water, litter trays, and a cosy bed off the floor. Not a bathroom or utility room, but something big enough for you to spend plenty of time with her through the day, doing normal everyday things, such as eating meals, watching TV etc.

if possible choose a room that has hard floors as it will be easier to clean if kitty has toilet accidents. But a kitchen is not always an ideal place as there are too many places for a small kitten to get stuck under, e.g washing machine, fridge etc.

Provide kitty with 2 open litter boxes, and fill them with a non clumping fine grain litter. It is important at her young age the litter is non clumping in case she licks litter off her paws or coat - as clumping clay litter could cause an intestinal blockage. However, once kitty is over 8 weeks old you can use a good cereal based clumping litter for her such as Worlds Best Original.

However using a non clumping litter means you will need to change all the litter frequently, i.e. empty out the whole tray, wash it and refill with new litter. This is because it is difficult with non clumping litter to scoop all the soiled bits and often the clean stuff in the litter box gets contaminated too (which may put kitty off using it).

Kitty is squealing and biting you when you put her in the litter box so please stop doing it, because it is counterproductive. Causing her stress and making her associate the litter tray with fear means you risk never training her properly to use a litter box.

Instead when you have the two litter boxes in place (not close together, and well away from her food) provide some good litter and confine kitty to one room. If she pees on the floor say nothing to her (do not show ANY disapproval to her) just mop up the pee with a piece of kitchen paper and put the paper in the nearest litter tray. Leave the soiled paper there for an hour or so, kitty will notice it, she has a terrific sense of smell, you do not need to point it out to her.

You will need to be patient and give her plenty of time to learn. It is evident from what you say she has been taken from her mother far too young, and this is likely to have knock-on effects on her behaviour and socialisation. You need to step into the role of substitute "mum" and gently teach her the things she needs to know.

She will need a wet food diet, no dry food. Dry food is unsuitable for a kitten (or cat) who has any kind of bladder issue, such as soiling. She needs plenty of fluids in her diet and the way to ensure a high fluid intake is to feed her a wet food diet.

She will need 4 or 5 meals a day of wet food at her age. If you're out in the day time, feed her before you go out and then leave her a couple of meals in a timed autofeeder, then feed her again when you get home, and again at bedtime. This is the autofeeder I use for my kittens and cats and after 25 years of use it is still going strong, so a good investment.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Mate-C...2891&sr=8-2&keywords=cat+mate+c20+auto+feeder

Keep her confined to one room until she has the hang of using the litter boxes every time she toilets. This may take a week, or it may take several weeks, don't worry, you will get there. 

Please let me know how things go, when you have implemented the changes I've recommended.


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## Helena91

Thanks for the advice, we will try and let you know how it goes


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## chillminx

Awww, bless the little poppet, she is so cute! xx She does look very young as you said, about 6 wks old in that photo - are her eyes still blue? They start to change around the age of 6 weeks old.


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## Helena91

chillminx said:


> Awww, bless the little poppet, she is so cute! xx She does look very young as you said, about 6 wks old in that photo - are her eyes still blue? They start to change around the age of 6 weeks old.


That was a picture I took of her on the first night we had her, she only had a skinny little stump for a tail too! We think she's around 8 weeks now, her eyes are still blue though, I think they are changing to yellowish green, and she has a proper tail now  She's a grey tabby named Willow by the way.


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## chillminx

Yes, she looks a bit older in your second photo, maybe about 7 weeks old. 

She is very pretty, lovely markings. I like her name - it suits her.


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## Helena91

chillminx said:


> Yes, she looks a bit older in your second photo, maybe about 7 weeks old.
> 
> She is very pretty, lovely markings. I like her name - it suits her.


She certainly is a pretty girl! Today has been very encouraging. No accidents all day. I did find her squatting on the sofa this morning and put her in her tray. She jumped out but I didn't put her back in. I sat by the tray myself though and dug in the litter with my finger (needs must ) she watched for a while then jumped in herself and used it! For both jobs  I have bought her a second tray too, it's in the hallway, she is allowed in the living room and hall (there is no door to the living room) I also bought special kitten litter which she seems to like, the other tray we had been using wood pellets, this is clay. She has been in the tray just to smell it and sit. This afternoon she has used the new tray twice  She does seem to get quite upset about covering though, she takes a long time and ends up scratching the walls and floor instead of the litter, she sometimes squeaks while she's doing it too like she's getting frustrated.

On a side note I wonder how much she should be eating? She weighs almost 700g now (she was barely 500g when we got her) We are feeding her Felix kitten wet food and some kitten milk. So far I have just kept a constant supply of food in her bowl but I don't know if that's the right thing to do.


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## chillminx

Hi @Helena91

Yes, a very good idea to dig in the litter yourself (acting as Willow's substitute mum ). Definitely the way to go - well done! (She would have seen her cat mum do that and would have in time learnt to copy her.) Very pleased to hear she used her trays for both number one and number two! Also glad she likes the clay litter.

Kittens learn from their cat mums how to bury their deposits in the tray. Chances are Willow's mum didn't cover her own deposits and used to scratch at the walls and floor. If you're worried about your walls being scratched you could move the tray away from the wall a bit.

But it's also more complicated than just learning from their mum, because instinct comes into it too. Their survival instinct tells cats to bury their deposits whenever they want to hide the evidence from potential predators. But their instinct to protect their territory tells them to leave their deposits uncovered when they want tell other cats who may 'pass by' that "this territory is already taken". Cats learn a lot of information about each other from sniffing their deposits. The fact you may have no other cats does not matter. To Willow there is the chance another cat (or a predator) may happen to come by.

It is a shame Willow sounds upset, bless her, when she is trying to cover her deposits, but as long as she always has nice clean trays I would leave her to it. She will work out for herself whether she wants to bury deposits or leave them on display. Two of my cats rarely cover their poo in the trays but always cover their pee. 

Regarding her diet, you are doing the right thing, letting her eat as much as she wants. She has a lot of growing to do, and needs a lot of energy, so she needs plenty of food. I would expect her to be eating around 200 grams to 250 grams of wet food at her age/weight. That's 2 to 2 and half pouches a day of Felix A.G.A.I.L. Does that sound about the amount she she is eating?

She shouldn't really need kitten milk now she is weaned. Meat based foods are far more nourishing and are what help to build strong muscles. The risk if you give her milk is she will fill up on it, and eat less of the meat based foods. So I would save the milk for an occasional treat.

It is good you are feeding her wet food but Felix is not the best as it contains a high percentage of vegetable protein substituted for some of the meat protein. Cats cannot utilise veg protein properly as they lack the right enzyme to process it. If you can manage to include some higher meat protein foods in her diet to bolster up the Felix, that would be excellent for her. e.g. foods such as Lily's Kitchen Kitten food, Natures Menu Kitten food, HiLife Chicken Dinner, Wellness Core, Meowing Heads. (all from Pets at Home).

Or for better value for money buy online from places like Zooplus, where many of us buy our cat food. Have a look at the pinned thread on the Health and Nutrition boards, put together by one of our members, giving the carb content of all the 'good' makes of Zooplus food and choose foods that are 10% carbs or lower.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-just-the-good-stuff-work-in-progress.440844/

(worth noting that Zooplus have a good policy of refunding for all unopened packets or tins of food your kitten/cat refuses to eat) 

Or add a little home cooked meat to her diet, e.g. chicken or turkey drumstick served without bone but with plenty of the nutritious cooking juices, or a little gently fried turkey mince (fried in animal fat not oil) or fried pork mince. It is OK for up to 20% of her diet not to have minerals and vitamins added.


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## smiler84

Any tips for a cat who prefers to poop outside? This isn't a problem most of the time, but when she has to stay in (e.g. when we are away or out for the day) she is pooping in various locations round the house. I've tried adding in an additional box so she's got one on each floor of the house, I've also tried different litters. 

She wees in her box fine and the vets are happy that she's healthy...


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## Helena91

chillminx said:


> Hi @Helena91
> 
> Yes, a very good idea to dig in the litter yourself (acting as Willow's substitute mum ). Definitely the way to go - well done! (She would have seen her cat mum do that and would have in time learnt to copy her.) Very pleased to hear she used her trays for both number one and number two! Also glad she likes the clay litter.
> 
> Kittens learn from their cat mums how to bury their deposits in the tray. Chances are Willow's mum didn't cover her own deposits and used to scratch at the walls and floor. If you're worried about your walls being scratched you could move the tray away from the wall a bit.
> 
> But it's also more complicated than just learning from their mum, because instinct comes into it too. Their survival instinct tells cats to bury their deposits whenever they want to hide the evidence from potential predators. But their instinct to protect their territory tells them to leave their deposits uncovered when they want tell other cats who may 'pass by' that "this territory is already taken". Cats learn a lot of information about each other from sniffing their deposits. The fact you may have no other cats does not matter. To Willow there is the chance another cat (or a predator) may happen to come by.
> 
> It is a shame Willow sounds upset, bless her, when she is trying to cover her deposits, but as long as she always has nice clean trays I would leave her to it. She will work out for herself whether she wants to bury deposits or leave them on display. Two of my cats rarely cover their poo in the trays but always cover their pee.
> 
> Regarding her diet, you are doing the right thing, letting her eat as much as she wants. She has a lot of growing to do, and needs a lot of energy, so she needs plenty of food. I would expect her to be eating around 200 grams to 250 grams of wet food at her age/weight. That's 2 to 2 and half pouches a day of Felix A.G.A.I.L. Does that sound about the amount she she is eating?
> 
> She shouldn't really need kitten milk now she is weaned. Meat based foods are far more nourishing and are what help to build strong muscles. The risk if you give her milk is she will fill up on it, and eat less of the meat based foods. So I would save the milk for an occasional treat.
> 
> It is good you are feeding her wet food but Felix is not the best as it contains a high percentage of vegetable protein substituted for some of the meat protein. Cats cannot utilise veg protein properly as they lack the right enzyme to process it. If you can manage to include some higher meat protein foods in her diet to bolster up the Felix, that would be excellent for her. e.g. foods such as Lily's Kitchen Kitten food, Natures Menu Kitten food, HiLife Chicken Dinner, Wellness Core, Meowing Heads. (all from Pets at Home).
> 
> Or for better value for money buy online from places like Zooplus, where many of us buy our cat food. Have a look at the pinned thread on the Health and Nutrition boards, put together by one of our members, giving the carb content of all the 'good' makes of Zooplus food and choose foods that are 10% carbs or lower.


She does seem to be eating about 2 packs a day yes, we are at Petsathome tomorrow so I will have a look for those brands you mentioned  She's having her jabs tomorrow, the vet thinks she's big enough now. We are doing very well with the litter tray, she has used it almost every time in the past couple of days, finally the washing machine is getting a break  Thanks for all the help!


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## chillminx

Helena91 said:


> She does seem to be eating about 2 packs a day yes, we are at Petsathome tomorrow so I will have a look for those brands you mentioned  She's having her jabs tomorrow, the vet thinks she's big enough now. We are doing very well with the litter tray, she has used it almost every time in the past couple of days, finally the washing machine is getting a break  Thanks for all the help!


Happy to help.  I'm very pleased to hear she is using the litter trays! Excellent news!

Lovely photo - she is such a cutie,


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## Emskielou

Hiya! 
Me again!
So I've tried the litter you recommended and natures menu wet pouches. Started with these on Sunday and had been going really well until tonight. Florence poo'd on the floor in front of her tray again. I think our other cat might have been nearby at the time so I'm wondering if it could be middening like u mentioned maybe? They do fight and hiss at each other and chase each other round the house, I guess regularly but not daily. I've always thought it was play fighting... but maybe not. Florence always seems to like to know where Flossy is so that's why I thought they they get on. Her poos are formed and since the new food seem a bit softer. I've been scooping out any mess in the trays as often as I can and changing the litter regularly. Really disappointed as feel I'm now back to square one after investing in more expensive food and litter that I now am not sure are making any difference? Any other suggestions that might help? I really don't want to get rid of her but if I can't resolve the issue feel like that's my only option. 
Thanks in advance for your help
Emma x
w


chillminx said:


> Hi Emma,
> 
> While it wouldn't be a good idea to phase out all the indoor litter trays especially as Florence has this tendency to soil, it may be possible eventually to reduce the number of trays to 2 (if your other cat always goes outside to toilet)
> 
> I am sorry I didn't realise the soiling is *poo *on the floor, not urine. Some of the advice I gave you in my previous reply still applies e.g. some cats do not like pooing in a tray that has pee in it.
> 
> And the fact is wood pellet litter is difficult to keep fresh, because it's hard to tell which bits are contaminated by urine. So unless you empty out the whole tray every time the trays are used by Florence or your other cat, then I really recommend you switch to one of the granular clumping litters I recommended, as it will be much easier to scoop and keep clean.
> 
> I would also put at least one tray upstairs if that is where Florence is spending most of her time at present. As far as keeping your toddler away from the tray you may need to fit a baby gate in the doorway of the room where the tray is kept. However as Florence doesn't like jumping over the stair gate she may be reluctant to climb over a baby gate in a doorway. So you could fit a cat flap to the room door and keep the door closed all the time. And train Florence to use the cat flap of the room to get to her tray.
> 
> However, one needs to make it as easy and straightforward for Florence to use her trays. I am a bit worried that if she has to learn to jump a baby gate or go through a cat flap to reach her trays it might put her off. But it is worth a try, and perhaps training her with rewards. If a new tray remains unused you can take her poo off the floor and place it in the new tray. You do not need to show her, she will find it by the scent of it. (as long as it is in a room she goes into of course).
> 
> With regard to Florence's poos, are they firm and formed, not soft or loose? if they are soft or loose that may be the reason she avoids the tray sometimes. Also if they are very hard and she has to strain to pass them (constipation) then she may also avoid the tray. This is because the cat associates the litter tray with discomfort.
> 
> Another possibility is Florence is scent marking (known as "middening" when poo is used for the purpose of marking). Florence would be doing this as a message to your other cat to tell her the tray is hers (Florence's). You mentioned that your other cat "usually" goes outdoors to toilet but if there are times when she does use the indoor trays then it's possible that is what Florence objects to as she sees the trays as being her resource. The solution if so, can be to add more trays (i.e the 3 or 4 I mentioned before).
> 
> Diet is also important. The risk with dry food is that she may not be getting enough fluids and her stools may be dry and hard to evacuate. Or a dry food diet being very high in calories may be too rich for her and is making her stools soft perhaps.
> 
> Do you measure out the exact amount of dry food per cat according to the instructions on the packet, and serve a portion of it for each meal several times a day? Or do you put down a bowlful for the day and let them snack on it all day? If the latter, then it is likely she is getting too rich a diet, and this may well be affecting her stool consistency.
> 
> A healthier diet of low carb, grain free, high meat protein wet food may help Florence feel more comfortable in her tummy and intestine. Worth a try anyway.
> 
> Re: the 'play fighting' - it is hard to me to tell if it is play-fighting unless I can see an example of it on video. Is there any hissing, growling, yowling or shrieking ? Does any fur fly? Is it always your other cat who starts the 'fight'? Do the cats have plenty of places to go to indoors to get away from each other if they choose?


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## chillminx

@Emskielou -

Hi Emma, thank you for the update. 

I think it is much too soon to give up yet. These things can take a bit of time to resolve sometimes especially if it has been going on for a while. It needs time to work out what the cause is, and finding the solution can be a matter of trial and error. To be fair, I would give it 3 months.

if Florence's poos have gone a bit soft again then probably the new diet is not suiting her. You will be able to exchange the unopened Natures Menu pouches for another food as long as you have the receipt. Pet stores are good about this these days.

If you are going to Pets at Home, maybe try Wainwrights tins or HiLife Chicken Dinner pouches. It may need a few trials to find the right food. Are you avoiding dry food for her her and not giving her any dairy products, including no lactose free milk?.

How many trays do you have out now? You need at least 3 but in case there are issues between the 2 cats I would put out 4 trays for now.

Florence might have been "middening" but equally if her poo is softish she could be avoiding the tray for hygiene reasons (not wanting to contaminate the tray). Or it could be there was already pee or poo in the tray from Flossy (hence a reason for more trays, so there is a better chance of a clean one for Florence to use).

I suggest when her poo goes a bit soft you give her a day of home cooked chicken drumsticks, served off the bone and with plenty of the cooking water (stock). This will rest her bowel and should firm up her poos. (Tesco sells bags of frozen drumsticks in their Value range).

Let me know how things go, OK. Good luck


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## Charliesmum6

Hi everyone, so glad I've found this thread! 
We adopted Charlie 3 months ago, he's 8/9yrs old and is a Siberian ex stud cat. We've been told he was a breeding cat till 5yrs then was neutered and given to a family. After another cat and a baby were introduced his behaviour got worse and he was spraying everywhere so his owners put him up for adoption which is where we came in. But we're having the same problem and my partner is ready to give up. 
Charlie is an only cat, indoor only with full range of the house, he has two trays, with litter he likes and they're big enough for him. He knows where the trays are and uses them successfully however we have a lot of accidents, we've had to remove all of the trim along the front door as he's caused it to rot. 
We have a feliway diffuser on constantly, the trays are cleaned as soon as we see he's used them, we use max strength enzyme cleaner to mop up after him and he's rewarded for using the trays and ignored when he doesn't. I have approached a behaviourist but are aware they are expensive. We're running out of ideas now and my partner is only getting about 3hrs sleep per night as she's waking up every time he goes downstairs. He has only peed in a couple of places, against the front door or the wall next to it, in front of the television, the middle of the kitchen, the side of our bed or (very recently) on top of some furniture in the living room and against a wall. He dislikes tin foil so whenever he pees somewhere we have been putting down foil as a last resort to stop him damaging the floor and wall. We have considered getting him a companion but based on his history we don't think he'd like one.
He is a very vocal needy cat, and is really only quiet when he's asleep, he also spends most of his time with one or both of us. The vet has said it's behavioural not medical but we are running out of ideas. I do not want to give him up but he's driving a wedge between myself and my partner. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance!


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## chillminx

Hi @Charliesmum6 and welcome 

I am sorry to hear about Charlie's problem. Unfortunately it can be the case that some ex-stud cats will continue to spray even after being neutered. It may mean managing the problem rather than being able to eliminate it altogether.

It will be a shame if you feel you have to give him up. The poor lad's future will be pretty bleak if he is passed from pillar to post. But I do sympathise with you, having had chronic spraying cats myself, and in fact have one at present (a rescued stray who was late neutered).

Things that have helped with my cat are e.g. to restrict him to certain parts of the home, excluding rooms with soft furnishings. This means either my OH or I will always keep him company, wherever he is in the house, as he is a very sociable cat and hates to be on his own. So it would be unfair to shut him away from us, but at the same time I do not want him soiling carpets and furniture.

I allow him outdoor access 24/7 and this has definitely helped reduce the spraying. I understand you can't allow Charlie out to roam, but you could consider making your garden cat proof for him (or an area of it) or building him a large outdoor run which he could access from the house through a cat flap whenever he chooses.

I also give my boy a course of Zylkene every few months and this helps reduce his anxiety levels. Intensity of spraying seems very much linked to anxiety levels I have found in all the cats I have had who sprayed. Zylkene is a supplement, and is not addictive, nor does it make them sleepy. I give it for a month - open the capsule and add the powder to his food.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zylkene-Small-Natural-Calmer-Capsules/dp/B00PP1B8F0/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2BEZSWAAOCSF2&keywords=zylkene+75mg+for+cats&qid=1558688569&s=gateway&sprefix=zylkene,aps,134&sr=8-5

Note: you may feel the Zylkene is not working at the time, but interestingly after a month of the cat taking it, it does take effect and can be effective for several months after that.

You mentioned a cat behaviourist and I do think it would be well worth while you consulting one; it could be money well spent. If you have pet insurance for Charlie then you will be covered as long as a vet makes the referral. But you can choose your own behavourist. Here are a few I recommend:

1/ Vicky Halls - well-known expert, with an excellent record. Has written a number of books on the subject

http://www.vickyhalls.net/

2/ CAPBT

https://capbt.org/findabehaviourist.php

3/ APBC

https://www.apbc.org.uk/

Expect to pay around £100 per session, but you may only need one home visit and the followups could be over the phone or email (less expensive).

I do hope you are able to persevere with Charlie. I understand it won't be easy and being realistic the probability is you may never 'cure' him entirely of his spraying. It is a habit he has gotten into, and he uses it to comfort himself when anxious. My cat is the same.

Please let us know how things go. Good luck. x


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## Sacrechat

Good advice from Chillminx.

I have had spraying issues with cats and definitely do not think introducing another cat is the right thing to do, in all likelihood it will only exacerbate the problem.

As Chillminx says you may just have to manage the problem. I restricted my boy and girl who did it to certain rooms. Those rooms had tiled floors and painted walls that washed down easily. Although those rooms had furniture that could be peed on, I only gave those two cats access to those rooms when I was present and could keep an eye on them. They had regular access to a cat run.

With one cat, I never was able to resolve the problem. She passed away eventually. With the boy, Louis, he stopped all by himself when my cat numbers reduced to only two. Louis and my other cat Chino is still with me now but they get along most of the time, so he isn’t stressed anymore and I know he sprays when he’s stressed, which is why I won’t introduce another pet into my home as long as he is alive.


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## Charliesmum6

Hi thanks for the advice. We've ordered some zylkene and have made the decision to begin letting him out, which began yesterday but only lasted 10 mins before he chose to come back in. Restricting him would be difficult as our house is fairly open plan, he does only seem to pee on hard surfaces apart from the two incidents on the side of our bed so small mercies! 
Finding him a new home isn't really an option in my eyes and is an absolute last resort, we knew he was damaged goods when we got him just didn't understand quite how bad it was! We're going to get him on the zylkene as soon as it arrives and he'll have the chance to go out again tomorow.


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## bluecordelia

Let us know how you get on


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## chillminx

@Charliesmum6 - when Charlie was kept as a stud cat, he probably lived in an outdoor pen which was all he knew of as 'home', and he could spray it to his heart's content. No-one objected, in fact it was probably behaviour that was almost expected of him as an entire male cat (a sign of his masculinity!)

Imagine how puzzling it must be to Charlie to find all of a sudden that humans object when he sprays in his home. Through castration he has lost the hormones that made him want to spray, but he hasn't lost the habit of it, and his instinct tells him that spraying his territory helps him feel more in control of his environment enabling him to cope better with life.

It is a relief to learn that giving him up is a very last option from your POV. But if your partner feels differently it is going to create tensions. If you were both 100% in agreement about Charlie I would say to manage the spraying situation between you, but as there is a difference of opinion I think consulting a pet behaviourist might help a lot. x


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## Charliesmum6

Hi everyone thanks for the great advice. We've had Charlie on zylkene for a few days now and there's been no accidents since that day. We're still holding our breath a little and haven't taken up the foil just yet but if things carry on we might be ok!


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## chillminx

Excellent news @Charliesmum6 !  .

I recommend continuing the Zylkene for a month and then taking a break from it. He may then be OK but if there are any relapses put him back on the Zylkene for another month.

Good luck, fingers crossed!


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## Charliesmum6

Hi everyone well looks like I spoke too soon he's getting worse again..Between me waking up at 6 and going to work at 7 he peed twice in the same place against a wall and also sprayed one of our sofa throws and the living room floor over the weekend. We're giving him outside access more now and he's marked both the front and back of the house but still insists on selective tray use. He is on zylkene twice a day when we can get him to take it


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## chillminx

I am very sorry to hear this @Charliesmum6. A soiling issue may take time to resolve, particularly when it's been going on a long time like Charlie's has. It's a bit like unpicking a tangled ball of wool when trying to identify all the triggers.

Are you opening the Zylkene capsule and adding the powder to his food? Most cats don't usually mind the taste of it when mixed in with wet food. Maybe try crumbling a couple of Thrive pure protein freeze-dried treats on top of his wet food when it has the Zylkene in it.

I definitely think it is worth you consulting a cat behaviourist. They charge around £100 per session for a home visit but you may only need one visit and the rest of the contact could be by telephone or email (so less expensive than a home visit) Of the links I gave you earlier I highly recommend Vicky Halls, who is very good at dealing with feline soiling issues. I haven't met her, but have read all her books, and an acquaintance of mine engaged her for help with her cat's soiling.

http://www.vickyhalls.net/


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## Charliesmum6

Morning, the zylkene gets broken open and we mix the powder in yes, we have the most luck with cat soups for this but sometimes he refuses to eat them if he's been snacking on biscuits all night or if it's too hot. I have approached a behaviourist but she charges a lot and wants a vet referal. 
We let him out last night and he had a stand off with another cat and then disappeared for an hour, so we're hoping that establishing his territory will help, he'll be allowed out every night when the weather is good, don't really want a sodden Siberian! 
We're also changing up the morning rountine so he can't develop a pattern as easily, and hopefully will curb any anxious behaviour. He's my furry shadow in the morning and tends to have accidents after I leave so we wonder if there's a little bit of separation anxiety going on to.
I am determined to fix this as I understand that the future for him if we do rehome will not be great, he's a beautiful affectionate intelligent cat-we just need him to stop peeing on things!


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## chillminx

Most cat behaviourists require a vet referral, this is normal. I am sure your vet would be happy to help with this. 

You could email Vicky Halls through her website and see what she would charge you for a home visit. Explain to her what the problem is briefly in your email.

Hopefully the area where you live does not have a high local population of cats? Because if it does then there is a risk of him getting into quite a few fights as he tries to establish his territory. Does he have a microchipped cat flap so he can get back indoors safely every night? Few cats want to stay out all night long if they have a home to go to.

You could well be right that some of the spraying is due to separation anxiety after you leave. Can you leave a radio on for him playing low, on a classical music station? This can be soothing to anxious cats. Do you get a chance to give him plenty of one to one attention for half an hour before you go out? I found this can be very reassuring to a cat who suffers from separation anxiety. They will usually settle and sleep after that. 

Giving the Zylkene is quite a priority, as it really can help reduce anxiety issues. I understand it's not that he's refusing the Zylkene but that he's not hungry for his brekkie when he's been eating dry food all night. Could he not have the Zylkene added to a supper of wet food every night and then cut back the amount of dry food you leave him overnight? Dry food always spoils the appetite when it is left down all the time for snacking.


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## Charliesmum6

Hi everyone well Charlie has started to go out in the evenings and seems a lot happier for it, we did have a little accident against the back door but he's beginning to use the tray again! There are a lot of cats in our area and he's been busy greeting them, we're hoping that laying out and patrolling his territory will help. He experienced rain for the first time last night (not a fan) and is so lively and happy this morning that were probably going to open the door every night not just when the weather is good. We're still very nervous about doing it but it's good for him and he's enjoying it a lot so we'll just have to deal with our nerves!


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## chillminx

Hello @Charliesmum6 - this is very good news and I am so pleased for you, and for Charlie!  I have always found those of my cats who sprayed were happier when they could go outside. They continued to spray but it was mostly confined to outdoors (bushes, fences, etc, )

It will be great if this good progress continues. Please don't lose heart if there are lapses or setbacks though. My current cat who sprays goes through phases were he will spray indoors again but it passes and then he stops for months at a time. We do not react to it at all, just clean it up. x


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## Ottery

Thank you @Ceiling Kitty for giving such thorough info. I have had cats a long time and was familiar with most of it - but not all, and currently have a cat weeing inappropriately. I know the reason, she's stressed by the new(ish) kittens. She gets on well with them, but she needs privacy so has taken to finding it in antisocial (to us) places.

One thing I didn't realise was that two litter trays next to each other would be seen as 'one big tray' - it's obvious now you say it. We have 4 cats and 5 trays, and after reading your posts I have now moved two of them and provided an extra one. She already seems happier and there has been no incident for the past 24 hours...


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## Charliesmum6

Morning everyone, well we have not had a single accident since last Saturday now! The key seems to be outside access, Charlie will very happily hold it as long as he can go out first thing in the morning and just before dinner. His appetite is up, he sleeps all night (my alarm actually woke him up as well this morning) he isnt screaming at us unless it rains. We have the back door open as much as we possibly can now and he comes and goes as he pleases. We've taken up the tin foil, put the curtains back up and are looking forward to many happy years ahead of us


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## chillminx

@Charliesmum6

Awwwww that's amazing! I am so, so happy for you and for Charlie, bless him!! I can't tell you how delighted I am to hear this news - it has really made my day! :Joyful:Singing:Singing

Hopefully there will be no more problems, but if he does have a slip-up please do not worry, as it will likely be a one-off incident.

Mind you, it won't be much fun having the back door open in the winter.....is there a chance of him having a microchip cat flap? 

p.s. would love to see a photo of Charlie if you have one to share.


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## Charliesmum6

Thanks! I've attached my favourite picture of him. He looks so silly


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## chillminx

Charliesmum6 said:


> Thanks! I've attached my favourite picture of him. He looks so silly


Aww bless him, what a cute boy he is! Very handsome too.! Thank you for the photo.


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## Selina93659

Hi All. 
Hoping someout out there can help. 

My youngest cat (of 2) has started pooping near the litter tray as well as in it. We use to have occasional accidents as he is a fussy cat - like if my other cat had done a smelly one - but now he is doing ever other next to the litter tray. 

We moved house 3 months ago and was fine to begin with, it's been getting worse in the last month.

Does anyone have any suggestions/things to try please. 

Thanks
Selina


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## Charliesmum6

Hi, how many litter trays do you have? 
Enzymatic cleaners saved us a lot in some cases as it got rid of the smell, just ensure you leave it about 10 minutes to work it's magic before wiping. Has anything changed in regards to the litter or tray? And is he having the accidents on carpet or laminate/tile? 
When our cat does use his trays he won't pee and poo in the same one on the same day even if it's been cleaned up, we almost had four trays at one point to give him options.


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## Selina93659

Hi. 
We've always had 1 big one but we put down a second smaller one in the last few weeks. 
We tried mixing in some non-clumping to see if it was the litter but that made it worse. It's on the lino and on the litter mat in front of the tray.

We thought he wasn't using at all for poops but I saw him using the litter tray last night. He seems to be using it at night but not in morning. 
We're on hunt for decent cleaner so I'll try finding some enzymatic.

Thanks x


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## Charliesmum6

Hi, I can't remember the name of the cleaner we have but it definitely came from Amazon and has a picture of a dog on the front, it's a pet safe one. I think the rule of thumb is one tray per cat and one more so maybe he's not happy using the same tray as the other cat frequently. Also does he have an upset tummy? We find that if Charlie has a bad stomach, he will poo on cold surfaces and won't touch the tray


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## Selina93659

Excellent I'll try and find that. 
He did have an upset stomach last week, they've been a mix of good and bad, more good this week.


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## chillminx

Selina93659 said:


> Excellent I'll try and find that.
> He did have an upset stomach last week, they've been a mix of good and bad, more good this week.


Cats with a loose stool will sometimes avoid the litter tray. Either for hygiene reasons - they don't want to contaminate their tray with faeces that are abnormal, or it can be because they may be in bowel discomfort from the diarrhoea and they associate the discomfort with the tray (i.e. they blame the tray)

For 2 cats the minimum number of trays is 3. These should be spread about the home, not placed together. A fine grain clumping litter is best.

But I doubt the litter is the problem for your cat as his tray avoidance is recent. It is the loose stools that are the cause. So you will need to address that. Have you recently changed his diet? What do you feed him?


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## Selina93659

Hi, 
He was having accidents before his upset stomach, which has cleared up now.
They're both on nature diet nuggets and a dry biscuit, which hasn't changed for about a year.
Getting a second large tray tomorrow, so they'll have three to choose from.


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## Lucas Duxbury

Hey, really great article. Thanks for sharing all of that information.


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## staspan

Lucas Duxbury said:


> Hey, really great article. Thanks for sharing all of that information.


Hey, yes, a great forum, guys I recommend another good channel for entertaining a cat, I always turn it on so I don't get bored


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## Jaspersalem

Help!! 

We have two cats, Jasper and Salem. They're brothers and are 8 months old. One month into owning the cats Jasper started peeing on our leather sofa. We tried everything to try and stop it, we have three litter trays all spread around our home, they're seen to daily and replaced weekly. We've taken him to the vets numerous times, on the last occasion he had a urine test done and we found out he had Struvite crystals in his urine which we then believed had caused him to urinate outside the tray. He would mainly urinate on our sofa at least once a day and would sometimes urinate on his own bed. 

When we discovered he had this condition we got him eating royal canin urinary food. At the same time we decided to get rid of our sofa and get a new one. While having a sofa free home Jasper didn't urinate anywhere apart from his litter tray. Less than 24 hours into having our new sofa he peed on it 
We just don't know what to do, any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## ClaireJ

How awful for you, weve been in a similar situation with one of ours so i know how stressful it can be.

Ours turned out to be behavioural which is hard to solve but @chillminx had great tips.

We have 2 litter trays and it turned out he is really fussy and likes them to be cleared frequently so if his brother has been in it he wont go. How often do you clean out wees/poos? Is there anything like litter tray territorial issues between your guys?

Also we found hooded litter trays helped as they feel safer with them being enclosed. What litter trays do you use? X


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## Jaspersalem

ClaireJ said:


> How awful for you, weve been in a similar situation with one of ours so i know how stressful it can be.
> 
> Ours turned out to be behavioural which is hard to solve but @chillminx had great tips.
> 
> We have 2 litter trays and it turned out he is really fussy and likes them to be cleared frequently so if his brother has been in it he wont go. How often do you clean out wees/poos? Is there anything like litter tray territorial issues between your guys?
> 
> Also we found hooded litter trays helped as they feel safer with them being enclosed. What litter trays do you use? X


Thanks for the reply! I know it's so stressful
As soon as one goes for a poo we get that out ASAP. We use the wood pellets as litter as we've found it works best for them both after trying pretty much everything on the market. We've tried hooded trays but the problem seemed ot get worse when using them.
Our other cat Salem has never had any issues and will us any of the trays, Jasper always seems so fussy. He used to go from tray to tray scratching around and then sometimes would finally pick one to go in. 
We've tried using feliway and found no change in his behaviour and have tried some herbal tablets recommended by the bet but that also made no change to his behaviour.

For us what's most frustrating nowbis that he went two weeks without going anywhere apart from the trays because we had no sofa, then one day into having the new sofa he goes on there, we really felt we'd made progress but are now back to square one

Are the issues with your cat resolved now?


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## Jaspersalem

ClaireJ said:


> How awful for you, weve been in a similar situation with one of ours so i know how stressful it can be.
> 
> Ours turned out to be behavioural which is hard to solve but @chillminx had great tips.
> 
> We have 2 litter trays and it turned out he is really fussy and likes them to be cleared frequently so if his brother has been in it he wont go. How often do you clean out wees/poos? Is there anything like litter tray territorial issues between your guys?
> 
> Also we found hooded litter trays helped as they feel safer with them being enclosed. What litter trays do you use? X


Sorry forgot to mention there's no territorial issues as far as I'm aware. And we use these litter trays....


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## ClaireJ

Yeah they are, he still has the occasional accident but it took 4 years and new carpets! 

We use a combination of cat san and wood pellets. We scoop wees straight away too and put plenty litter in so he can have a good dig. He's still fussy and sometimes we'll see him wandering and we have to pick him up and put him in the litter tray so he goes but it happens way less these days. 

We also took the flaps off the lids of the trays as he wasnt keen and clean them once a week with dettol anti bac spray. 

Most of the time it was trial and error but we got there in the end. Never had an issue with Theo but Loki was a mare! X


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## ClaireJ

We have this one in one room as loki is a big cat so thought space might help

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats.../hooded_litter_box/litter_boxes_filter/278485

And a b&m version of this in the kitchen where we're a bit pushed for space. We just popped the clear flap out so its open all the time but lid is on if that makes sense?
https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats.../hooded_litter_box/litter_boxes_filter/284528


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## ClaireJ

These videos are quite good. When loki was doing it regular we had to take it back to basics and work out why and what he was trying to say. Sounds a bit crazy but makes sense. His is a reaction to what he thinks is a dirty tray or stress - last time he did it, it had been 10 months with no accidents and it was the morning i miscarried so our stress levels were high. He picked up on it and thats how he dealt with it. There'll be a reason why he's doing it and once you work out whats going on with him you'll be able to deal with it. In the meantime does he have a blanket he sleeps on that you could put on the sofa so it smells like him?


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## Milo’s mum

I have not decided yet whether we want to join here :-/
After all my baby is perfect in any way (but sometimes makes mistakes)...
The pantry, plastic bags with brand new clothes, fresh laundry, in the wardrobe...I am trying to eliminate access and we are fine for weeks.
Then this little determined soul will just jump at any opportunity!


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## MissFluffy

Milo's mum said:


> Then this little determined soul will just jump at any opportunity!
> View attachment 424087


Oh yes the large potted plants… been there, done that. Particularly with plants that have been outside in the summer and might still smell of all kinds of interesting things. Last time the pot got sprayed I decided to try a new strategy and clean the (wooden) floor underneath, but leave the marking on the pot… and guess what, it's not been touched for weeks, everybody's happy and I can't smell it anymore anyway (the offender is a female and the smell isn't actually all that pungent) 
On the other hand, if he's actually trying to use it as a litter box, you could try to poke tall sticks in the ground all over it or close together all around the edge. Or confuse the heck out of him by hiding the plant and putting a litter box there instead.


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## Pmayney

We moved house 3 weeks ago and my male cat has started praying. He has never done this in any other house. How do I stop him from spraying indoors ? I have brought feliway and have had it in place for around 2 weeks now but he still sprays. Any advice please ?


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## chillminx

Hello @Pmayney and welcome 

Well, he is scent-marking the new environment to establish himself as the feline owner of the territory. There are various possibilities why he feels the need to do so in this house when he hasn't done so before when you have moved house.

e.g. the previous owner of your new house may had cats (or dogs), and your cat is spraying to scent mark to claim the territory as his own. If this is the case you'll need to do a thorough clean of paintwork, doors etc, anywhere a cat or dog could have rubbed themselves and left their scent. Use an enzymatic cleaner. I use a solution of Bio Tex Stain Remover as it's not only effective but has quite a pleasant scent.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-Stain-Remover-Powder-500g/dp/B00BAQJBD0/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3FK21VS9ICN3P&keywords=biotex+stain+removing+powder&qid=1582055862&sprefix=bio+tex+,aps,150&sr=8-2

Once you've cleaned to remove the scent of previous animal occupants you can put your cat's scent around the house as follows. Take a soft cloth and rub it around your cat's neck and on his cheeks (where there are scent glands) and then wipe the cloth on doors, paintwork etc at the height of your cat's head. If your cat can smell his scent around the house he may feel less need to spray.

Another possibility is that neighbourhood cats may be spraying your back or front door in response to the arrival of a new cat (your cat) in their territory. If this is so your cat will be able to smell the scent through the door and is responding with his own scent. You can chase neighbourhood cats away from your garden, but if they are spraying your outer doors you will need to clean the outside and inside of the doors every day with the enzymatic cleaning solution.

Is your cat going outdoors at your new house?

When does your cat spray ? e.g. when he comes in, or before he goes out?

Where does he spray? e.g. near the front or back door? Near the catflap?

Is the cat your only pet?

Any changes or additions to the family since the recent house move ?


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## [email protected]

Yup, Nunu is a sprayer. Not often. Usually my husband is the victim.....'his' bathroom, his clothes left on the floor, his suitcase. Also anything black and large like a suitcase or bin bag. Also sometimes favourite blankies or igloos of the other cats. The doorway (reciprocal spaying due to neighbourhood cats spraying our front door). When I first got him, about 13 years ago, he never sprayed. Only started after the arrival of Girly a year later.


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## Ella-Jay

I’m not sure if this thread is still active but I really need some help here, I’m really struggling. I’ve had cats my whole life, from taking in a feral to adopting adult cats that then had kittens, all ages and backgrounds and I’ve never had cats that pee around the house til now and I can’t cope anymore, they have multiple trays that are cleaned constantly, in multiple locations. I’ve changed litters to see which they prefer and I have 2 hidden and one in a more common area as one of my girls likes someone to be around when she goes. And STILL they pee on my clothes or on my bed, often when I’m in it sleeping. I’ve spent a fortune getting duvets cleaned and slept on air beds while
My mattress is drying and I don’t know what else to do, I tried a feliway in my bedroom and in the living area and nothing. They use their trays all day and then pee on my stuff in the night and I just can’t afford it anymore. I’m not sleeping because as soon as they move I think they will pee, I even shut them out for a few nights and all they did was shout outside my door and rip up my carpet. Vet checked them out and gave them clean bill of health so now I have no idea what else I can do. I’ve never before given up pets, they are family but i honestly don’t know what else I can do here


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## chillminx

Hello @Ella-Jay and welcome 

I am sorry to hear of the problems with your cats soiling in the house.

You are a major resource for your cats (you provide food, shelter, affection, attention) and as they are soiling items that have a strong scent of you, it suggests there is a lot of competition between them, over you. Evidently one cat feels insecure and anxious, and is soiling as a way of comforting themselves.

The fact one of your girls likes someone to accompany her to the litter tray suggests she may feel apprehensive about using the trays, so it's possible the other cat is subtly guarding the trays and blocking her from using them.

Can you give a little more information about your cats please:-

1/ Is it two cats you have? Are you certain they are both doing the soiling?

2/ Are they both neutered?

3/ How old are they?

4/ In what order did you get them?

5/ Do you have any other pets?

6/ Do your cats go outdoors? If they do, do they have a microchip cat flap? Is it locked at night?

7/ When did the soiling start? e.g. was it after any change(s) in the household? Or any change(s) to their routines?

8/ How long are the cats alone every day (or most days)? i.e. do you go out to work ?


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## Ella-Jay

Hi thanks for the reply, 

I have two sisters, I got them at the same time from a rescue place. Alli is the one who cries for me to come to the tray with her but it’s only when she poops she pees alone, Mia tends to just sit and watch her ( honestly it’s a full family affair when she goes) they have never seemed to have an issue with each other I only intended to get one but left with both when I saw how close they were, they nap and eat together just fine. They are indoor cats as I’m in the process of building an outdoor cat run for them since I live in a town centre. Not sure how old they are exactly since they were dumped cats but not neutered, that’s next on my list and I wasn’t sure if it had the same effect as with male and territory marking. Peeing started about 2 weeks ago and it is constant. Never on the floors or hidden away. Always if I leave some clothes on the floor ( probably serves me right) or on my bed at night. They both have a snack at night and use the tray then we head up to bed and I’ll move in the night and find a big wet patch with no idea which it came from! Except the other night I woke and caught Mia peeing on the middle of the duvet before walking back to her spot and falling back to sleep! I work two days a week for 6 hours and I have a little camera set up so I can see them play and eat and make sure no one is upset so everything seems fine during the day. And if I’m ever out all day it’s cuddles and playtime as soon as I’m back. Just so frustrating to not know what I’m doing wrong


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## chillminx

@Ella-Jay - you don't mention if they are still kittens or whether they are adult cats, but if they are sexually mature (which usually occurs between the ages of 4 and 5 months) then that is by far-and-away the most likely cause of the house soiling.

They are doing it to scent-mark their territory, and just like you say, it's the same behaviour as in male cats..

You need to get them both spayed without delay, before the scent marking/soiling becomes a habit. The longer you leave them 'entire', the higher the risk they will not cease the scent marking habit even after being spayed, because it will have become an established behaviour.

Also, being sexually mature, they will be coming in and out of 'call', (heat). A sexually mature female cat left un-neutered, and coming into call repeatedly without being mated, is at risk of a serious illness called Pyometra.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/pyometra-in-cats

Many vets prefer not to spay when the cat is in heat as it increases the post-op bleeding. If your two are in heat at present it should be over by next week. So you could book them next week for their spay operations. If they are in heat at different times to each other, then I'd go ahead and book the one who is on heat now for spaying next week. Leaving the spaying until both cats are not in heat at the same time, could mean too much of a wait, as they may come into heat every 10 days to 2 weeks.

Be very careful they don't manage to escape from the house atm, as they may try to slip out to find a mate.


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## Ella-Jay

Hi sorry they are kittens, I checked their vet cards and they are 13 weeks so still too young to have heat or be spayed . I’ve had them for 5 weeks now. First 4 weeks were perfect they used the trays perfectly and we only had one accident where Mia was startled by a firework and ran and peed, totally understood that one. But now for the last week she won’t stop peeing on my bed. Just last night i caught her 3 times going to squat and managed to get her to the litter tray but then 5am she knew I was looking and instead of squatting just lies down and peed, so now both her and my bed are covered in pee. I know it’s only a week and people go through this for months but I just can’t afford it. I’ve bought the special air fresheners and the cleaning powders and sprays. But washing all my bedding and duvets everyday is too much. And I can’t see w reason for it at all


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## chillminx

Oh wow, they are only 13 weeks old!! OK, well that changes things. I agree they are not yet sexually mature so the soiling is not caused by them being in heat. 

Back to square one  -

First of all, are you 100% sure it is both kittens who are peeing on your bed or around the house? Or is it only Mia who is doing it? Have you actually witnessed both kittens doing it? 

Mia is obviously very put off by the trays but I will add more when I have your reply.


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## Ella-Jay

Mostly Mia, the first time I ran down stairs to get things to clean with and when I came back Alli was sniffing the patch and getting ready to squat but I managed to get her off and I haven’t seen her since, both use the trays all day whether I’m home or not, and they nap on the bed all day when I work without any accidents but it’s always in the night when I’m actually in the bed! Last night Mia had even gone out to use the landing tray for a poo and then jumped back up and tried to pee on the bed, I have two trays upstairs and the girls quickly decided the landing one was for poop and the one in my bedroom for pee, since I’ve never seen them poop in that one I imagine it’s to avoid the smell when they get back into bed. I have cameras to check in on them while I’m at work and I see them use all the trays. It’s just once we are settled into bed the nightmare starts!


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## chillminx

@Ella-Jay - cats do often have different trays for poo and pee. It is the same when they toilet outdoors, different spots for poo and pee. Their instinct tells them not to keep using the same spots, as it would be easier for predators to target them. No predators indoors, but the kitties instincts are still in operation.

Can I ask if the duvet has been laundered since Mia first peed on it? It is better to launder it in bio laundry liquid rather than trying to spot clean it by hand. It only needs a tiny trace of urine smell to remain for the cat to be attracted to pee in the same spot again. I would also recommend a waterproof duvet cover for now too, as it will be much easier to launder than the duvet itself. The covers are quite cheap to buy from e.g. amazon, Hopefully you will not need it long term, but for the moment it will be useful while we sort out the soiling issue.

I also strongly recommend a waterproof mattress cover, if you don't have one. Keep it on permanently. There are waterproof, breathable ones which are not expensive. All the beds in my house have these on just in case any of my cats were ever to pee on a bed (they haven't done so far....touch wood!)

As both Alli and Mia are good at using litter trays in the day time it seems unlikely to be an issue with the trays. Possibly the best solution would be to shut the kittens out of your bedroom at night. Choose a night room for them where you can close their door. Have a little bedtime routine every night where you give them their supper and sit quietly with them for a while until they settle. Then go to bed and close your bedroom door. With the house quiet all night they should soon settle and sleep. Give them cosy beds off the floor in their night room.

I would also take into account their diet. Are they on a mainly wet food diet? If not it is possible Mia may be getting some intermittent cystitis. If so, she could be associating the litter tray with pain and instead choosing a soft place to pee e.g. your bed, to comfort herself. However as she has only done it at night, this seems a fairly unlikely explanation.

But even so, any cat or kitten who has had a tendency to pee away from litter trays is better being on a wet food diet, as it will ensure she is getting plenty of fluids to keep her kidneys and bladder flushed through and healthy.


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## Ella-Jay

yeah I sent the duvets out to be special cleaned and pulled others from guest rooms to use whilst it was away which she had never been on before. but all 3 are in there now, I also sprayed the wet patches with the cat pee enzyme spray from the vets before I took them in just as a piece of mind that one of them would take! Mostly wet food though I always leave biscuits out for them. Days where they don’t seem to have drank much i add some water to their wet food which seems to help keep up their water intake. I have a waterproof topper on and went out today to buy one for my duvet too but was hoping I could find a solution to make her stop then just minimise damage but looks like I’m stuck! We have a bedtime routine at the moment where they snack and drink and use the tray downstairs before we go up, I was debating turning the room next to mine into a kitten sleep room but they have never slept on their bed or away from me, they wont nap downstairs if I’m upstairs and won’t nap on the bed if I’m in the living room, I have very clingy babies, tried to nap earlier with my door shut and Alli cried the whole time on the other side of the door, I don’t want them to think I am punishing or ignoring them and making the situation worse. I guess I’m just stuck waiting to see if it’s something she will outgrow or settle when she’s finally old enough to spay, thank you for taking the time to reply to me anyway I really appreciate it


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## chillminx

@Ella-Jay - the best thing to do if you want them to have a sleep room at night is to sleep in there with them for 4 or 5 nights. That way you are not abandoning them and your scent will be in the room.

I am certain any kitten can be trained (in a kind way) to accept sleeping in their own room at night if you start early enough. I might be reluctant to put one kitten in a room on their own at night, but I have always adopted 2 kittens together, so it has been fine.

You have two kittens so they have each other for company, and there is no reason why they should be lonely, as long as you get them used to their new room first with you in there at night.

I really would not recommend waiting to see if Mia 'grows out of' the bed soiling. I fear that might be wishful thinking (sorry!).

Once a cat or kitten forms a habit such as soiling of human beds, it can be a hard habit to break. Spaying is not likely to make a difference to Mia in this respect as she started the bed soiling before sexual maturity.

It is possible Mia has learnt that it comforts her to mix her scent with your scent by peeing in your bed. Human scent is strongest in our beds. If she finds it a comfort now then whenever she is a bit scared, stressed or feels unwell etc as she gets older she is going to do the same thing again. It is best to try and break the habit now.

Bear in mind it is much easier to train a kitten to accept a change of routine than an adult cat.

Leaving the kittens shut of your bedroom in the daytime is not the same thing as giving them a sleep room of their own at night which you accustom them to gently. If the kittens can reach your door of course they will shout at the door and scratch the carpet etc.

Re: diet, I would cut back on the dry food. Cats don't need to snack all day, they are carnivores, not herbivores. It is much better for their digestion to have a break between the times they eat, rather than eating throughout the day . I am concerned that Mia may not be getting enough fluids in her diet in spite of you adding water to her wet food. And if so it could just be a contributing factor to the soiling of your bed. It is not unknown for lack of enough fluids in the diet to be a reason for soiling due to bladder discomfort.

At their age I would give the kittens 5 meals a day of wet food. I always used timed auto-feeders for two of the kitten meals when I was out at work 5 days a week, and kittens managed fine with those.

If you want to continue giving them dry food, measure out a 5th of a daily allowance for their weight/age (according to the packet instructions) and put the kibble in puzzle balls for them as one of their daily meals, so they have it at a set time, like the other 4 meals. But they will have to work harder to get it out of the puzzle ball.


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## Chaun

I have two cats. The male has started exploring outisde recently, and now when he comes in the house he poops and pees everywhere. Before he started going outside, he would use the litter box, i dont know what to do. We stopped him from going out because he would come back with injuries (some minor and some serious)


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## chillminx

@Chaun -

Is the male cat neutered?

Coming back with injuries suggests he has been getting into fights, or being bullied, by local cats who are protecting their territory. Certainly if some of his injuries have been serious e.g. bite wounds that became abscesses, then I understand you not wanting to let him out.

He looks quite young in your photo - about a year old perhaps? If he is a young adult he will not yet be fully aware of cat etiquette and perhaps he has tried to be friendly with the local cats, not understanding the other cats do not want to be friends with him.

With regard to the house soiling he will probably be OK once he feels safe again. It sounds as though his confidence has been badly shaken, poor fellow! The outside world is not the friendly place he thought it would be!

If you have a cat flap cover it up for now (fix a piece of wood over it) so your cat can see it is gone and will understand no strange cats can get in.

Give him more litter trays. For 2 cats there should always be 3 litter trays/boxes but in these circumstances provide 4 trays. Open trays are best so the male can see around when he is using the litter box (otherwise he will be scared that a strange cat could stalk him)

I would give him a course of Zylkene for a month. It's a calming supplement which is good at helping reduce anxiety levels. One capsule a day, open the capsule and add the powder to his food. It is well tolerated. It will take a week or so to see an effect as it works gently.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetoquinol...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Long term I recommend either cat proofing your garden to keep him safe or building an outdoor run for him attached to the house that he can access through a cat flap on the back door. I have cat proofed my garden and really like the fact it keeps neighbourhood cats out, as well as my cats safely in.

There is a pinned thread on Cat Chat where members post their own experiences of cat proofing their gardens:

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/


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## Chaun

He is about a year old and he hasnt been neutered. Im not sure if i would be able to provide 3 or 4 litter boxes because it is up to my mom. We have 2 litter boxes. Although getting injured, he cries to go outside. I will let one of the litter box be open. i will be patient and hope for the best. Thank you for the advice.


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## chillminx

@Chaun - you need to get him neutered as soon as possible. He is way past the age of sexual maturity. The main reason he is soiling in the house is because he is not neutered. Not being neutered is also the reason he has got into nasty vicious fights with other un-neutered male cats. This will continue as long as he remains un-neutered.

The urine of an un-neutered male cat is very strong smelling. It will make your house stink! Even if he does it in the litter tray it will still smell a lot.

And he will start spraying urine around your house, a habit he may not stop once you neuter him. So please for his sake, and for you and your mum's sake get him neutered a.s.a.p.

You owe it to him, to have him neutered to keep him safe. It is not fair to leave him as he is, even if you keep him indoors. Sooner or later he will manage to escape from the house so he can go and find females to mate with. Then he will be at risk of catching nasty viruses and becoming ill. FIV (Feline Aids) is often caught by young un-neutered males who have got out and mated with any passing entire female.

Also, you will be adding to the kitten population explosion if that happens. Thousands of unwanted kittens are born every year in the UK and the Rescues are full up every summer and have no room for more.

If you are in the UK and your mum can't afford the cost of the cat's neutering operation, please beg your mum to phone your local branch of Cats Protection tomorrow and ask for a voucher to pay the vet fee for most of the cost of neutering.

I sincerely hope and pray your female cat has been spayed (if she is more than 4 months old) or your male cat will soon make her pregnant.!!


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## Chaun

@chillminx
I do not leave in the UK. I live in south america. From what my mom heard its expensive to get an animal neutered ,but we are looking into it to see if we can afford it. Our female cat is older and her previous owners had her spayed. We dont have a lot of stuff like a local branch of cats protection available in the country.


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## chillminx

Chaun said:


> @chillminx
> I do not leave in the UK. I live in south america. From what my mom heard its expensive to get an animal neutered ,but we are looking into it to see if we can afford it. Our female cat is older and her previous owners had her spayed. We dont have a lot of stuff like a local branch of cats protection available in the country.


There may be some low-cost neutering programmes in your area, being run by a cat charity. I would search online for local cat welfare charities in your country and see if any can help your mum with the cost of neutering your cat.


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## [email protected]

Hello all,

First post here, as I'm getting desperate with my cat Wuji peeing and pooping on the carpet. I have read thoroughly the comprehensive post by @Ceiling Kitty and can honestly say I have tried all those suggestions and more. Would be grateful for any advice. This is a long-standing problem but I'll try to be concise with the information.

Wuji is about 6, adopted from a rescue centre, neutered female cat, the only cat in the flat. We have no outdoors space and the rescue centre was aware of that. We have had Wuji for almost 4 years and throughout that time she has had periods of avoiding the tray then months without problems; these periods don't seem to coincide with any domestic changes.

She has been to the vet to be checked for medical causes repeatedly. No sign of pain or arthritis that would cause issues with her getting into the trays.

I have used Felliway diffuser for a couple of years to alleviate any stress.

She has two litter trays, both cleaned regularly, a short distance from each other, in a quiet part of the flat away from her food and resting areas. All soiling is very close to the trays, inches away.

She did have a brief period when she would pee and poop on my bed, close to where she often slept. I kept her out of my bedroom and the door shut for a couple of weeks, and that solved that problem (or at least shifted it off my bed!).

I have used larger litter trays; different litter; changing the position of the trays. She has used the current trays without problems often in the past.

On vets' advice I bought a large cage and kept her in that with tray and food for 3 weeks; she used the tray throughout. When released she reverted to avoiding.

I clean up any soiling promptly and thoroughly with hot water and biological washing powder. I recently hired a carpet shampooer to freshen them up.

Wuji seems quite happy otherwise; is physically well, sleeps for long periods on my bed; appetite good, no sign of stress. She doesn't play or is very active much at all, despite having tried her with a number of toys.

My next steps would be to contact a behaviourist but I am disabled, living on benefits, so wary of cost, and am not sure what a behaviourist could advise other than what I have tried. The other option is to rehouse her but she is such a lovely cat I am very reluctant to do so. However I am finding it increasingly hard to live with this behaviour.

Any suggestions?

Thanks for reading


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## chillminx

Hello @[email protected] and welcome 

I am sorry to hear of the problems with Wuji soiling in the house. I understand you have tried lots of different strategies in an attempt to solve the problem. Could I ask for more details of these and whether any of them helped at all? Even temporarily?

1/ Cat litter - most cats generally like an unscented, fine granular clumping litter, at a good depth in the tray so they can dig a hole and bury their deposits. What types of litters have you tried Wuji with?

2/ Are her trays open or covered? If they are covered trays change one of them to an open tray. A covered tray should always have the door flap removed, as cats do not like being completely enclosed when they are at their toilet.

As Wuji both pees and poos on the carpet right near the trays it suggests that it is the tray or the litter that is a problem for her. Or that she is associating the litter trays with discomfort or pain and looking for a soft place to pee and poo (the carpet ---- & your bed at one stage). It is possible she may have intermittent pain from cystitis.

Can I ask about her diet? Any cat with a history of bladder issues including soiling should be fed a wet food diet only. This ensures the cat is getting enough fluids in their diet and encourages regular emptying of the bladder, so the kidneys and bladder are flushed through and the risk of sludge or crystals forming in the bladder is minimised.

Do you add any supplements to her food such as Cystease or Cystophan, for her bladder health?

I am a bit concerned to hear that at 6 yrs old she is as inactive as you say and not interested in playing. It is not normal for a 6 yr old cat to sleep most of the time. I mean, they might sleep a lot, especially an indoor cat, but not most of the time. Has she had a full health check in the past 6 months - blood test, urinalysis? (I assume from what you say she has had regular checks for Urinary Tract Infections and they have all been negative? )

I would be interested to know how Wuji gets on with the other resident human in your flat ? Does the person like Wuji? Does Wuji like them? Is the person involved in sharing the feeding and care of Wuji?

What have you observed as being different in the home or in Wuji herself at the times when she has been using the trays OK? Does she seem happier in herself, more relaxed?

The caging method can work with cats who have forgotten or never fully grasped what the litter tray is intended for. It has not worked for Wuji because she knows exactly what the tray is for. We know this because she has used it often, and when she does not use it , she pees or poos nearby. That is not the sign of a cat who is confused about the purpose of the tray.

Also, I am sure she is not avoiding the trays out of wilfulness. In her mind there is something wrong, or some association she has made with the trays, as I mentioned earlier..

She used the trays when she was shut in the cage for 3 weeks, because she had no choice. In other words, she suppressed her real feelings about the trays, not wanting to soil the small area she lived in while in the cage. But this did not translate to her behaviour once she was let out of the cage, because the underlying cause of the soiling had not (and has not yet) been identified. This is no criticism of you, you have tried hard to resolve the issue. Sometimes soiling issues can be hard to understand, or make sense of.

Consulting a behaviourist may be a good idea, but is true they are quite expensive (e.g. maybe £200 or more for a home visit). If you have pet insurance then you can claim for the fees for a behaviourist as long as a vet makes the referral.


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## [email protected]

@chillminx Thanks so much for your lengthy reply, that's really useful. I'll reply to your questions below but first to say I took Wuji again to the vets this morning regarding this issue. I didn't mention in my first post because I wasn't sure it was related but Wuji also goes through periods of vomiting frequently, pretty much daily, and I wanted to ask the vet about this also. The vet is looking into possible inflammatory bowel disease, which may cause the vomiting and also discomfort/pain when pooing which could lead to the soiling elsewhere. They have taken blood for tests and I will provide faecal samples. I think previously they haven't considered that because Wuji has no diarrhoea. Urinalysis wasn't suggested, I'm not sure why, as I did ask about cystitis. It's the most thorough the vets have been so far, previously they have treated symptoms but not causes, so fingers crossed we make some progress.

I have tried Wuji with Bio-Catolet (light cellulose paper granules) and Catsan hygiene litters (non-clumping).

Her trays are both open.

Her diet is a mix of wet food and dry, fairly standard, as she has never been diagnosed with bladder issues. No supplements. She has fresh water available and uses it often.

Wuji gets on fine with myself and my flatmate, who helps out with feeding. She is a fairly nervous cat in general, will hide under the bed when strangers are around, but I haven't noticed any stress behaviour. There has been some disruption in the household since adopting her (people moving on, new ones coming in, myself becoming seriously ill) but my flatmate has been here 3 years now and these changes have not coincided with periods of Wuji soiling.

We adopted her as an indoor cat and a single cat, being told by the rescue centre that she didn't get on with other cats! She remained in her cage when in the centre and didn't mix. Our attempts to play with her have met with indifference or running away.

And yes, she does seem happier and more relaxed when she is in periods of using the tray.

I shall post here when the test results are in and hopefully then we'll have a better idea if it is a physical issue or behavioural (or mixed!)

Thanks again.


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## chillminx

@[email protected] - thank you for your reply. I shall look forward to hearing the test results.

I think there's every possibility the avoidance of the litter tray is connected with her vomiting problem. I also think her lack of interest in play and her sleeping a lot could be linked to her digestive issues. It is possible she feels uncomfortable. Chronic digestive problems can drag a cat down and make them feel tired.

I have a cat with IBD - he was diagnosed 8 years ago. He used to vomit several times a week. Now he rarely vomits and rarely has diarrhoea. His IBD is controlled with diet and frequent small meals. And wet food only. He only ever had about 8 pieces of dry food a day as treats, but once I removed it all from his diet, it helped his digestion improve.

I am very happy to discuss suitable diets with you, if you would like.


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## [email protected]

@chillminx I now have the test results. they took a while but then I guess everything is delayed due to the virus. Anyway I'm not surprised to report that they are all negative. The vet talked of scanning her stomach. They are more concerned with the vomiting than the toilet issues. However after reading your comments I stopped feeding her dry food and that had a big effect on the vomiting, it practically disappeared, so I don't think a scan is necessary. She does also seem more active and generally content (though that's all relative, she still sleeps for the vast majority of the day!).

Her toilet behaviour has seen some improvement but not so marked. From not using the tray at all, she now uses it about 50% of the time. I'm hoping that this is just taking longer to catch up with her improved health and in the near future it'll be 100%. I have no more visits to the vet planned, just monitoring the situation. She remains on standard wet food (Purina Gourmet Perle), relatively small quantities 4 or 5 times a day. The vet mentioned the possibility of sensitive diet food.

So as things stand I am cautiously optimistic but remain grateful for any advice you could offer.


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## chillminx

@[email protected] - I am very pleased to hear there has been a lot of improvement in Wuji's vomiting situation since you took her off the dry food. 

I'm also glad the faecal test results were negative. At least we know now we are likely to be dealing with a dietary issue, and not anything sinister.

I am glad Wuji is using her tray 50% of the time and I hope we can improve on that. It may be a case now of making minor adjustments.

Can I just check with you a few things -

Are her stools now formed and firm all the time?

Is she passing stools with ease, and not having to strain?

If the answer to either of these questions is "No" or "not always" then these are the areas we need to work on, by tweaking her diet.

Also, is she peeing normally - nice big pees 2 or 3 times a day?


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## [email protected]

@chillminx It was both blood and faecal tests actually. Not entirely sure what they were testing for but I would hope it was comprehensive, considering the cost!

Her stools are firm, about once a day, sometimes once every couple of days. She doesn't seem to strain. Likewise her pees seem normal, effortless and I would say 2 - 3 times daily. Everything seems as it should be in that regard. Today, for example, she had pooed outside the tray overnight, and has peed once (that I've noticed) in the tray. I'm hoping she's just taking a while to lose any bad associations that the tray has for her.


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## chillminx

@[email protected]

I am wondering if she might be a bit constipated when she goes without pooing for a couple of days. Does her avoidance of the tray for her stools, coincide with the times when she has not pooed every day? The longer the stool sits in the colon the more moisture is withdrawn from it through the bowel wall. So if the stool stays in her colon for 48 hours it is going to be quite dry and hard and will not as comfortable for her to pass.

I think it is definitely worth reviewing the type of litter you provide for her. When there has been tray avoidance for a while it is possible the cat has developed negative associations with the type of litter provided. Changing the type of litter may give her the chance to make some positive associations with using the trays.

I suggest a clumping fine granular litter. Two good makes are Cats Best Oko Plus and Worlds Best (both sold by Pets at Home - or at a lower price online from Zooplus UK) Both these are very popular with cats. Worlds Best in particular seems to act like a magnet to many cats. 

Catsan Natural Clumping is also worth considering. It is sold by Pets at Home, and Amazon Uk, but is out of stock at present at Amazon. Zooplus also sells it.

I suggest putting the new type of cat litter in just one of her trays to start with, to see if she likes it. Give her a few days. If she uses the tray with the new litter in, then you can switch the other tray to the new type of litter also.


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## [email protected]

@chillminx Thanks again for the great advice. I will try one of the litters you suggested.


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## chillminx

Good luck @[email protected] - let us know how things go.


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## Jake Robinson

Hi, I have an 11/12 week old Bengal kitten who 90% of the time uses his litter box happily. Once every other day he decides to pee (not spray, a big old pee) by the fish tank or on the bed. I have extensively cleaned these areas whenever he does so with every product under the sun. 

We keep his litter box very clean and he always has privacy. I don't know what to do as most of the time he uses the litter box of his own accord but every couple of days decides to urinate else where. Help!?!?!?


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## Francesca_lab

Hello!

I’m new to this forum - hi  

I have a beautiful 1 year old indoor BSH Sophie, who is very affectionate and playful. Like a lot of owners here, I am having awful trouble with her urinating outside her litter box. The confusing thing is she also happily pees and poos in the litter box too. I am very desperate as she is ruining the house and my partner is keen to rehome her, which upsets me greatly.

I read the initial post, which was fantastic but sadly have tried all the tips and more .
- clean bill of health from the vets
- multiple litter trays
- diffuser
-extra play
- shutting her in one room at night with her tray food etc
- enzyme cleaners on carpet 
-changing her food to dry only as per vets advice 
- cat attract litter 
-keeping her out of the bedrooms /dining room 

In the process of chatting with a behaviourist but during these strange times she is unable to work.

I did ask the vet about medications but he was very against the idea.

Any tips or ideas please let me know. 

My next option would be to let her out when lock down is over (though the woman we adopted her from was very firm in stating that Sophie is an indoor cat only ) . Which I’m not overly keen on doing as a few cats have gone missing in the area I live in.

thank you in advance 
Francesca
Aka desperate cat mum


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## chillminx

Jake Robinson said:


> Hi, I have an 11/12 week old Bengal kitten who 90% of the time uses his litter box happily. Once every other day he decides to pee (not spray, a big old pee) by the fish tank or on the bed. I have extensively cleaned these areas whenever he does so with every product under the sun.
> 
> We keep his litter box very clean and he always has privacy. I don't know what to do as most of the time he uses the litter box of his own accord but every couple of days decides to urinate else where. Help!?!?!?


Hello @Jake Robinson  I would provide him with at least one more litter box placed in a separate spot to the first one, i.e. not next to it. Cats usually prefer to pee and poo in different trays.

Which type of litter are you using ? I would choose a fine granular litter (not wood pellets). Cats like clean litter trays and non-clumping litter is hard to keep smelling fresh for the cat, as the odour of pee and poo contaminates the whole tray.

If you use clay it has to be non-clumping for safety's sake (in case he licked any off his paws or fur) but if you use e.g. Cats Best Oko Plus (made of shredded wood) you are Ok with a clumping litter. Even the corn based clumping litters may be OK for him.

Any cat with a soiling problem is best fed a wet food diet. Wet food is much healthier for a kitten's bladder and kidneys too. If you want to feed some dry then I suggest putting some pieces in a puzzle ball for him. But I advise not leaving a dish down for him to snack on all day. Set meals of wet food are better for his digestion.

It is possible he has some cystitis - which can cause cats to avoid the litter box because they associate it with pain. Feeding a wet food diet will dilute his urine more and enable him to pee without discomfort. If he has had discomfort when peeing it will cause him to "hold on" as long as he can. At his young age I would expect at least 3 good sized pees a day in the litterbox. Maybe when he does a very big pee he has not used the litter that day?

EDITed to add: does he use his box for poo every time? Are his poos firm and formed, like little sausages? Not loose / Not hard and dry?


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## chillminx

Francesca_lab said:


> thank you in advance
> Francesca
> Aka desperate cat mum


Hello @Francesca_lab and welcome 

Your cat is very beautiful.  Can I start by asking if she is spayed?

Also is she your only pet?

I am somewhat astonished that a vet would advise you to change her diet to dry food! It is well known that any cat with a soiling problem or any kind of bladder problem should be fed a wet food diet only. _No dry food at all._

The reason for this is that we want to encourage her to pee more often with a more dilute pee and the way to achieve this is to feed her wet food so she gets plenty of fluids in her food. Studies have shown that cats fed dry food do not get as much water in their diets as cats fed wet foods only. Even if the cat drinks a lot of water, it is still not a match for a 100% wet food diet.

I would also add a bladder supplement to her wet food, such as Cystaid Plus or Cystease. As these will soothe and protect her bladder.

If she is enabled to pee more often it will flush out the bladder, prevent "sludge" developing in the bladder, and make peeing more comfortable. At her age I would expect to see 2 or 3 big pees a day in the litter tray. Clear litter trays at least twice a day and top up with new litter to a depth of around 7 cms.

You mentioned you have provided multiple trays for her. This is good, one cat needs at least 2 trays, but 3 is better as she has problems. Spread them around the home.

The best cat litter to use is fine granular. Worlds Best Original is one that seems to act as a magnet to cats. If you have not tried it so far it is worth buying a small bag and putting in one tray only so see if she likes it. (Leave the other two trays with her usual litter) If she does like the WB then you can buy it in bulk cheaper online from e.g. Zooplus UK.

I am surprised that Cat Attract litter did not help at all. I used to recommend it regularly but it has to be imported from the USA and is very expensive, so is out of reach of many people.

I understand it is annoying when a cat soils the floor, but you and your OH must not allow this to be conveyed to the cat or you will make her anxious. Please explain to your OH she is not soiling to be naughty or lazy. Cats are very clean animals and your cat is soiling because there is something upsetting her, either with the tray, the litter or with her bladder.

When she soils the floor, say nothing, do not react at all, just soak up the pee with toilet paper or paper towel and place it in the nearest litter tray. Leave it there for an hour or two and then dispose of the paper.

Does she use her tray all the time for poo? Is her poo normal - firm and formed? Not loose? Not hard and dry? How often does she poo?

Sometimes it can be a problem with the stools (too loose or too hard) that causes a cat to want to pee elsewhere.

If she has been soiling your bedroom I certainly think it is worth shutting her out of there for the time being. It could be that her soiling is due to scent marking her territory (which she may feel insecure about) Human beds and bedrooms have a very strong scent of the owners, and cats quite often feel more secure if they can mix their own scent with yours.

As for cleaning where she's soiled, use an enzyme based cleaner. I use Bio Tex stain remover which is powerful and smells quite good too. Any soiled bed linen or duvet etc needs laundering or dry cleaning. I recommend you get a waterproof mattress cover if you do not have one, and also a waterproof duvet cover likewise. These will prevent a lot of damage. Amazon sells them.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-St...hild=1&keywords=bio+tex&qid=1587482116&sr=8-4

As for letting her out, it is very possible she would enjoy some time outside as most cats do love the outdoors. But there is no way I would allow a pretty cat like her outdoors to roam. Particularly as you say cats have disappeared in your neighbourhood. I just would not take the risk.

Instead, consider having an wood and mesh cat enclosure built onto the back of your house which your girl can access through a cat flap on the back door in the day time. Or better still consider cat proofing your back garden as I have done with my garden. There is a pinned thread on this topic on Cat Chat where members have posted details of their experiences with cat proofing their own back gardens.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

Please post again and let us know how things go.


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## Francesca_lab

Hello!
Thank you so much for the reply!!! 

Sophie has been spayed and is the only cat in the house. Sophie does pee around 2-3 pees in her tray and poo around once a day (then urinates on the carpet too).
Sophie poo is usually a sausage type (quite healthy) but on the odd occasion can be runny.We are using the wood pellet kind at the moment for her litter with some cat attract within it. 

I do wonder if it is an attention seeking behaviour if there is there is such a thing in cats? As it seems to be when she’s very wound up and either in the middle of the night or when my partner is working from home and can’t play with her.

I will reintroduce some wet food (Sophie will be happy she much prefers wet food).

I did wonder I have diffusers one the bedrooms- I was worried that perhaps she didn’t like these smells or confused with them. Could they be the issue?

thank you for your tips about the litter and bladder supplement - I shall investigate those!
I know Sophie is far too pretty for her own good , I worry constantly she will get stolen !
We do allow her out but more supervised when we are out ..she’s not the brightest and often gets scared of the wind, bees ,rain or stuck half way up a garden fence bless her .

thank you for your expertise and insight again!! 
X


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## chillminx

Hi again @Francesca_lab

Cats (both male and female, and neutered) do sometimes spray urine indoors, or even straightforward pee on the floor as a way of protesting about something they are unhappy with. And they also do it to comfort themselves if they feel upset or anxious. I suppose it is a kind of attention seeking but I see it as more of "a cry for help".

Attention-seeking behaviour is more usually e.g. scratching in places where you don't want them to scratch e.g. carpets and furniture. They scratch there because they know it gets your attention.  Crying/whining a lot is attention seeking, as is spragging you with claws extended when you are busy e.g. on the computer! 

Soiling the floor is more serious, as it shows the cat is unhappy about something, or is in pain or discomfort and is trying to tell you what is wrong. However saying nothing about it to Sophie will help her as it will make her less anxious.

The fact her stool is sometimes runny at the end could be due to he anal glands emptying (which they do at the end of every poo) . Are the stools nice and firm? So it may be the urine soiling is nothing to do with her poos.

I certainly think she might be happier with Worlds Best Original litter. Maybe without the Cat Attract at first, to see how she goes.

Do you mean Feliway Diffusers? Some people do report that their cat seems worse with these than without. I can't use them in my house as I have asthma and the carrier oils trigger an attack. As they don't seem to to be helping Sophie I would unplug them for now. See if a supplement (Cystaid+ or Cystease) is better for her.


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## Francesca_lab

Ahhh I see - oh dear I wonder what she is unhappy about! Luckily she has the all clear from the vet so at least not medical ..

I will invest in some of that litter thank you! Yes her poo is always fairly firm  

oh I meant scented diffusers - I have a few Yankee ones .

thank you so much again replying ! I really appreciate it !!


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## chillminx

@Francesca_lab - I really wouldn't use any of those scented diffusers around her - they contain essential oils which are known to be toxic to cats. Although the dose she inhales is probably quite dilute it could cause harm to her respiratory tract.

I have nothing like that in my house because of the risk of harm to my cats. For the same reason I never burn scented candles.

I couldn't say if the diffusers are what is upsetting her - I guess it depends what quantity she is breathing in of the oils and whether there is somewhere in the home she can get away from it.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/23/essential-oil-diffuser-poisoning-cat-dog-11205390/

It would be worth keeping a brief daily log of how she is every day, to see if you can spot a trigger that might be causing her to soil the floor.


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## Elliegr

Hi, this is my first post on petsforum.

I have 1 cat named rocky who is 13 months old, he’s a British shorthair we got him when he was 14 weeks old from a lovely breeder who we still keep in contact with.


He’s always been a sensitive cat but he grew a very strong bond with me quickly and he only really seems to interact with me, rarely will he play with my husband. In fact he seems scared of him and scared of all men. 


He’s recently started weeing around the house but also still using his litter tray, we noticed this around 3 weeks ago. he’s been going on my kitchen worktops, window sills, in the corners on the carpet on the wooden floor, on any clothes lying around, and in my ironing pile. every time he’s done this I thoroughly clean with an enzyme cleaner and once the area is dry I spray with feliway spray, I also have a plug in feliway downstairs and have ordered another one for upstairs.

In this time he also seems stressed however he still loves playing but only with me, I play with him for a few hours every day and I always have done, he has so many toys etc. He also still will sit on my lap and sleep with me and loves a tummy rub. He’s the most affectionate cat I’ve ever had.

His diet is good quality wet food, he also has normal poos which are always in the litter tray.


He hasn’t been neutered yet, I took him when he was 6 months to get done and the vet told me one of the balls hadn’t totally dropped and to wait and go back, so we went back at 7 months and the same thing happened, so went back when he was 8 months and the same thing!! I was pregnant at the time and nearing my due date so the vet told me I should wait a few more months until everything’s settled after having the baby and then take him to see if he is ready to be neutered. 
Although I am certain that he’s ready as I’ve had a feel and can feel both! 

I phoned my vets this week and they told me they aren’t doing any neutering at the moment only in extreme cases so I explained what’s happening and they said as it sounds stress related they won’t neuter until after the Coronavirus. They gave me a weeks worth of Nutracalm which he started yesterday, I’m not sure how long it takes to work but so far I haven’t noticed a difference. 
(As soon as I am able to get him neutered I will be) 

He’s an indoor cat (he’s never been outside) although we’ve been having a catio built for him which is due to be finished this weekend.


When I’ve been in my garden recently I keep smelling cat wee and today it was really strong by my back door. I picked up the outside door Matt and it was dripping wet with cat urine! We have a lot of cats in my area and there are 2 male cats who haven’t been neutered and one in particular seems to hang around my garden and tries to scare rocky thought the glass in the doors. This cat also sprays all around my garden and I am worried he will spray outside Rockys catio and try to put him off using it! Not sure if there is a way to deter this cat from entering my garden.


So I’ve been trying to figure out what’s upsetting rocky, I had a baby 4 and a half months ago but he had been absolutely brilliant still acting the same, but over these past few weeks the change in him is really scaring me. He seems afraid and anxious most of the time! Although he is still enjoying playing and eating! 


Just wanted to add he’s had the same litter forever, we carried on using what the breeder used which is breeder celect which are pellets. Would it be worth trying a different litter even tho he’s had the same since birth? 


Sorry for the long post was trying to cover everything. 


Thank you!


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## chillminx

Hello @Elliegr and welcome 

The reason Rocky is weeing around the house is highly likely to be because he is sexually mature and has not been neutered. It is common behaviour from un-neutered males. And he may be reacting to the smell of the scent of the urine on your outside doormat left by local cats.

Also the local cats who are weeing on your doormat may be doing so because they can smell the scent of an entire male cat coming from your house.. They may well be un-neutered males themselves and if so they will be very protective of their territory, which includes your garden at present. To keep them out you would need to fence it in with cat proof fencing. This would also prevent them having access to Rocky's new catio and spraying it with urine.

I sympathise with you, because through no fault of your own you were unable to get Rocky neutered before the lockdown. Unfortunately the longer he continues to soil with urine the more of a habit it will become. Although neutering is likely to reduce the amount of soiling it may not stop it completely. One of my cats is a rescued stray who was neutered after sexual maturity and he has had a life long habit of phases of soiling in the house.

My advice would be to talk your vet about whether Rocky could have drug treatment to suppress his sex hormones until he can be neutered.

And to consider getting your garden fenced in once the lockdown is over. I heard that some companies are actually doing work at present.

There is a pinned thread on cat-proofed gardens and runs with members experiences of installing fencing in their own gardens. The system I have is made by Purrfect Fence UK.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

EDITED to add: Rocky should have a minimum of 2 litter trays. Many cats like to pee and poo in different trays, though which tray they allocate for urine and which for poo can change from day to day.

You could try adding more than 2 trays, say 3 or 4 for now, to see if it will help with the scent-marking. Sometimes it does i.e. the cat will use the tray placed in a favoured scent-marking spot, or conversely the position of the tray can act as a deterrent to him scent-marking in that spot.


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## Elliegr

Hi @chillminx 
Thank you so much for replying to me. I've bought a couple more litter trays this morning and stocked up on the enzyme cleaners, I received one of the torches in the post today that's meant to show up the urine as well so will be interesting to see if I've missed anywhere.
I'm also going to ring my vet about the drugs for the mean time until he can get neutered.

I've had a look through the cat proofing thread thank u there are some great ideas on there. I'll get my husband on the case!

Thanks again!


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## chillminx

Awww, great photo - Rocky is a very handsome fellow.  I love BSH, I used to have 2 myself. They both died at 18 years old, 3 weeks apart from each other. I still miss them. x

I hope things go well with Rocky.


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## [email protected]

chillminx said:


> Good luck @[email protected] - let us know how things go.


Hello @chillminx, I wanted to provide an update on Wuji. I tried Cats Best clumping litter; she seemed ok with that so both trays now have that litter. She has not peed outside the tray for weeks, which is a massive improvement. She poos in the tray the vast majority of times but we're not up to 100% yet. She poos outside the tray, close to it, once a week. I haven't noticed her straining at any times; the consistency of the poo outside the tray looks the same as that when it is inside the tray. I'm thinking perhaps this is as good as it gets; maybe she still has negative associations with the tray that will take a while to dispel? I have kept her on a wet food only diet and the vomiting problem has resolved totally.

In short, massive improvement but would remain grateful if you have any suggestions to get us up to 100%. Other than patience, of course. Thanks again for all the advice. My vets are good but like many vets not the best on behavioural aspects of a problem, and what I learnt here was far more useful than any advice I received from them.

Pete (and Wuji)


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## chillminx

@[email protected] -

Hi again Pete. I am very pleased to hear things have improved considerably with Wuji in litter tray usage and I'm delighted to hear the vomiting has resolved on the new diet. 

Is her poo firm ? Or soft any of the time?

Are the two trays a distance from each other, not adjacent? Are the trays open or covered?

The fact Wuji poos right near the tray suggests there may still be something she is still uncomfortable with, either the tray itself, or some discomfort when she poos.


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## [email protected]

@chillminx - to answer your questions, the poo is always firm, never soft; the trays are about 1m from each other, both uncovered - she uses both but one far more than the other, that's the one she poos adjacent to. I can't figure out a pattern in the times that she doesn't use the tray. She's a mystery to me!


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## chillminx

A metre apart is quite close for trays. It is possible Wuji may see them as one toilet instead of 2. Could you try moving the trays further apart from each other - e.g. 2 metres apart?


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## [email protected]

chillminx said:


> A metre apart is quite close for trays. It is possible Wuji may see them as one toilet instead of 2. Could you try moving the trays further apart from each other - e.g. 2 metres apart?


ok, i shall implement social distancing for the litter trays


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## OrientalSlave

[email protected] said:


> ok, i shall implement social distancing for the litter trays


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## Separation Peeing

Hello,

Looking for some advice on a rather frustrating case. Even my vet is at a loss right now. I have a nearly 12 year old cat.

Around a two years ago, my cat starting peeing on beds that she sleeps in. Not the spot she sleeps, just nearby. We put it down to separation anxiety at the time and spent months not allowing her access to the beds whenever we were out. It seemed to do the trick and the problem stopped.

This cat has always preferred to pee outside rather than use her litterbox, but say it was raining or outside just didn't look appealing she would happily use her litterbox. She has two litterboxes but only uses one of them and always has. Over the last few months, the problem has started to occur again. She has had a full vet examination and every blood/urine/kidney/liver test- shes had the whack. The vet is currently saying it is simply a behavioural issue. We changed her diet to a fully wet diet which she took a great dislike to and started stealing the dog biscuits so now she gets a minimum amount in her wet food to give it a bit of a crunch she obviously likes so much.

I have spent months trying to fix this issue - removing her access to the area, new litterboxes, new locations, new litter but nothing seems to solve the issue. We made small changes, moving slowly and its made no difference whatsoever. As soon as she can access the area she will pee on the bed. Previously she used to pee and then leave the room, she has now started to pee and then goes back to lying on a dry spot in the bed. She has also now starting to poo outside her litterbox - right next to it. Yet again - it doesn't happen during the day time, it happens during the evening time. It's like I have two different cats - perfectly normal and happy to use her litterboxes/outside during the day but as soon as say 6pm comes we get peeing on beds and pooing next to the litterbox. She also used to do this when there was no-one around but obviously I have now been inside constantly since March so I can no longer put this down to separation anxiety as she will even do it when I am in the room, just not while I look at her. I figured maybe it was a privacy issue, maybe a softer litter issue. I've spent fortunes trying everything and she accepts any change quite easily until the evening when nothing but a bed will do. I can't even say there is any environmental/social change on an evening.

Have I missed a really obvious solution? Is there anything I can do to end this behaviour permanently or is my only solution isolating her to bed free rooms for the rest of her life as a permanent solution?


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## chillminx

Hello @Separation Peeing -

I sympathise greatly with what must be a quite a challenging problem with your cat.

Just to clarify - are they human beds she is peeing on (not cat beds or dog beds)? If so it will be likely to be for the purpose of scent marking to comfort and reassure herself when she feels anxious.

Human beds smell very strongly of our scent and a cat likes to mingle their own scent with their owner's scent as a way of reassuring themselves. To a cat we are part of their family and sharing of scents is what strengthens the family bonds in cat terms.

It is good you have put her on a wet food diet, and I would also add a little water to her wet food as well. Or offer her a little home made chicken or turkey broth each day , as a way of getting extra liquids into her. This will increase her volume of urine, making her pee more dilute so she will be encouraged to pee more often and flush out her kidneys and bladder. This will address the possibility that the soiling might be due to an inflamed urethra or cystitis.

If the soiling is purely behavioural then it is worth putting her on a calming supplement called Zylkene. It is not a drug and is not addictive. I have found it very helpful for one of my rescued neutered cats who has had an intermittent problem with spraying in the house. I give him the contents of a 75 mg capsule every day for a month and that is usually long enough to see good results.

Zylkene acts gently on the cat and it can take a few weeks to see benefits. My cat is usually fine after that for up to 6 months [i,e, he rarely sprays] and then he goes through another phase of repeat indoor spraying. So I put him back on the Zylkene for another month, and so on.. Definitely worth trying this for your girl.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetoquinol-Zylkene-Capsules-Small-20-Count/dp/B00K06MAK2/ref=sr_1_6?crid=2FAUZOU011ZWX&dchild=1&keywords=zylkene+75mg+for+cats&qid=1591744147&sprefix=zylkene+,aps,150&sr=8-6

I would also recommend protecting the beds with washable waterproof mattress covers and inexpensive waterproof duvet covers so that all traces of any urine smell can be removed easily by laundering. If there is a trace of pee odour left it will encourage your cat to go back and scent mark in the same spot.

It is also worth it, when the bed is empty, putting a plastic sheet on top (e.g. an old shower curtain) and then some fleece blankets on top of the plastic cover. This has the effect of not only protecting the bed but also concealing to a large extent the owner of the bed's scent . I have known this to be enough in itself sometimes to stop the cat soiling the bed.

Please let us know how things go. Good luck


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## [email protected]

@chillminx A further update on Wuji. Our problem remains, one or two poos outside the tray weekly. To recap: litter has been changed and she's happy with that; diet has been changed to wet-food only; trays have been moved to 2m apart. She no longer pees outside the tray; uses the tray to poo far more than previously; vomits no more than I'd expect from a cat (a furball now and again), which is a great improvement. But we can't get her to use the tray 100%. As I said in a previous post, if this is how it remains, it is still a lot better than previously and it is liveable with. I guess what I'd be keen to find out is if this last stubborn symptom is behavioural or medical.


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## Elliegr

Hi just wanted to let u know that we have had great success with rocky! No more weeing in the house (other then the litter trays!!) A few days after I posted on here I spoke to my vets again and they agreed to neuter him and booked me in for the following day!

His op went really well, and whilst he was at the vets the catio we had built for him was completed.

It's now been around 6 weeks since he's been neutered and we have had no problems since! He's only been using his litter trays ☺and he loves his catio so much, so I wonder if it's a combination of the 2 things.

Whilst we thought he was a bit scared of the neighbourhood cats it turns out he isn't! He has made some friends through the wire on his catio, and when they leave he calls for them to come back! He also enjoys winding up the next doors dog! But seems to get most his enjoyment with the local cats!

So we have made the decision to get another cat as companionship for him and we are so exited!! It's another british shorthair boy he's 7/8 weeks now. We can get him at 13 weeks! So for the mean time I keep reading threads on introducing cats!

Thanks for all your help!


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## chillminx

@Elliegr - thank you for the update. 

I am glad the vet was able to neuter Rocky, that he soiling has now been resolved and he is enjoying his new catio. Excellent! x


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## JamesP1701

Hi all,

We have a three month old kitten who we have ended up adopting after he was separated from his mother too young.

He is lovely and affectionate but we are having some issues, namely that he refuses to pee or poo in his litter tray (though he does sometimes).

We’ll often discover urine or faeces in various places around the house - normally in corners or against walls.

We’ve tried putting the litter tray in different rooms but are having no success.

We have aN 11 year old female Living here as well. She tolerates him

He’s also very fond of biting in play. He hasn’t yet been done. 

Feeling a bit at our wits’ end so any advice welcome.


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## chillminx

Hi @JamesP1701 -

The one thing not to do is it keep moving the litter tray around to different spots. This is confusing for kitty as cats tend to associate the actual spot with a toilet not just the litter tray itself.

But you can always add extra trays and I advise you to add extra trays anyway, because for 2 cats you need a minimum of 3 trays. But you should leave the original tray in the spot you first set it unless it is never used in 6 months or so.

It sounds as though your kitten may not have been properly litter trained, perhaps because he left his mum too young for her to complete the training . Really the best way to train him in these circumstances is to restrict him to one room for a few weeks (not a large room but not a room as small as a bathroom or utility room).

In his room you should provide him with 2 litter trays, not next to each other. Plus his food, water bowl, bed, toys etc. Be prepared to keep him company in his room so he is not lonely. i.e. sit with him when you are reading, using the laptop etc, not just when he wants to play.

It is also worth reviewing what type of litter you are providing for him. It may be litter he is not used to, or feels uncomfortable with. For example, not all cats or kittens like using wood pellet litter.

It may be he is not used to litter at all. You could consider trying him for a short while with puppy training pads (cut to size) in his trays and see if he is happier with those. They would need replacing every time they are soiled. The plan would be after he is using the trays reliably to start adding a very small amount of cat litter on top of the puppy pad, just at one end to start with. Gradually build up the amount of litter, until you reach the stage where the puppy pads are no longer needed.

I would go for a fine granular clumping litter (but not clumping clay litter as it is unsuitable for kittens). A clumping litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus (made of finely shredded wood) is a good one to consider. The wet clumps should be scooped twice a day minimum and the poos removed a.s.a.p. after being deposited.

A cat or kitten with any kind of a bladder issue (including house soiling) should always be fed a wet food diet only, no dry food at all. Cats are designed to get their fluids in their food (their prey), they are not good drinkers. On a dry food diet the cat is not able to drink enough water to keep themselves properly hydrated and this can lead to bladder and kidney problems. On a wet food diet the urine will be greater in volume, thus more dilute which is better for the cat.

Are his stools formed and firm? If they are loose or soft then this could be a reason for tray avoidance. Soft or loose stools can be a dietary issue.

Has he been treated for worms since you adopted him btw?


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## RupertsMama

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on why my kitten has suddenly started peeing outside his litter box.

I have had him for around 3 weeks, we think he’s now around 11 weeks old. (The breeder told us he was 10 weeks when we bought him but the vet reckons he was actually only 8 weeks) 

He had been great at peeing and pooing in his litter box so far, absolutely no accidents whatsoever up until yesterday when he randomly peed next to his litter box. It was a proper pee rather than a spray (big puddle and normal pee posture!). I had originally discounted it as a one off as later on in the day he was back to peeing in the litter box as normal, so just thought maybe he didn’t make it in time or something? 

But then today he peed next to the box again in the same place! We cleaned the area properly yesterday - we have vinyl flooring so luckily a relatively easy clean. Same as yesterday, he has peed in the litter box again since the incident and doesn’t look to be in pain or anything when he pees.

We have an appointment at the vets tomorrow anyway for his vaccinations so will mention it to them then but just wondering if anyone has any ideas as to the reason for this change in behaviour?

He is fine in himself otherwise, very playful and eating/pooping as normal. He has 2 litter boxes but rarely uses the second one. We use wood pellets litter, mainly because that’s what he used before he came to us.

Thanks in advance!!


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## buzyizzy

I have tried all the above over the last two and a half years. I bought two female six month old kittens and since day one the smaller one has been different. She is mute, and doesn't seem to have any social skills. She is the more nervous of the two, but will come to me in the evening and sleeps near me at night. She eats a LOT, and has been quite porky for a long time despite my best efforts. The first time I saw her pee in the wrong place, she came in from outside, walked past a clean tray and peed on my settee. This has happened more than once. They have been house cats for 16 months and she has persisted in peeing in the wrong place, despite a clean tray and her sister has never done anything like it. I caught her tonight just about to poo in the middle of my rug and I've had enough. I've had her checked over, bought feliway, pet mess cleaners for the carpets etc, citronella to spray over the furniture and rug, I am not having my flat stinking of pee. She's quite sweet, but clearly isn't all there which wouldn't be a problem and I'm happy to look after her, but I can't do this soiling. So if anyone else has had it too, don't feel guilty, you know you've tried everything.


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## chillminx

Hi @buzyizzy - I am sorry you have been having a difficult time with your cat's house soiling. It can be very frustrating and ultimately if it can't be resolved may mean restricting the rooms to which she has access.

One of my cats is a rescued stray. He was not neutered until around 18 mths old when I adopted him. He has retained the spraying habit indoors and it has been necessary for me to keep him out of any rooms with soft furnishings or rugs. It is the best way to reliably manage his behaviour.

I assume your cat is spayed?

Are you providing at least 3 litter boxes and are they spread out, not grouped together?

Are you providing a fine granular clumping litter?

Peeing on a sofa (or a bed) could be scent marking (wanting to mix her scent with your scent because sofas and beds smell strongly of their humans) If it is scent marking, then it is done because something is making her feel insecure in her home. Either she does not get on with the other cat, or there are neighbourhood cats outside she is afraid of.

Is the cat flap a microchipped one, so no strange cats can get in? Have you considered cat proofing the garden so no strange cats can get in the garden?

Alternatively the soiling of the sofa could be due to intermittent cystitis or a UTI. Has she been checked by the vet and a urinalysis done?

Any cat with a bladder problem - including soiling of floors, sofa and beds, should be fed a wet food diet only. No dry food at all. Wet food ensures the cat's volume of urine ncreases, becomes more dilute and the cat in encouraged to pee more often, which flushes out the bladder and reduces the risk of sludge or crystals. (Sludge or crystals can cause cystitis, and cystitis is helped by adding more water to the cat's diet, hence wet food being best)

If she is a timid cat it is worth trying her on a course of Zylkene for a month to see if it helps. Zylkene is calming supplement and I have found it can help reduce house soiling, Open the capsule and add the powder to wet food and mix.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetoquinol-Zylkene-Capsules-Small-20-Count/dp/B00K06MAK2/ref=sr_1_5?crid=37MIARV966QYU&dchild=1&keywords=zylkene+75mg+for+cats&qid=1596840588&sprefix=zylke,aps,147&sr=8-5


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## buzyizzy

chillminx said:


> Hi @buzyizzy - I am sorry you have been having a difficult time with your cat's house soiling. It can be very frustrating and ultimately if it can't be resolved may mean restricting the rooms to which she has access.
> 
> One of my cats is a rescued stray. He was not neutered until around 18 mths old when I adopted him. He has retained the spraying habit indoors and it has been necessary for me to keep him out of any rooms with soft furnishings or rugs. It is the best way to reliably manage his behaviour.
> 
> I assume your cat is spayed?
> 
> Are you providing at least 3 litter boxes and are they spread out, not grouped together?
> 
> Are you providing a fine granular clumping litter?
> 
> Peeing on a sofa (or a bed) could be scent marking (wanting to mix her scent with your scent because sofas and beds smell strongly of their humans) If it is scent marking, then it is done because something is making her feel insecure in her home. Either she does not get on with the other cat, or there are neighbourhood cats outside she is afraid of.
> 
> Is the cat flap a microchipped one, so no strange cats can get in? Have you considered cat proofing the garden so no strange cats can get in the garden?
> 
> Alternatively the soiling of the sofa could be due to intermittent cystitis or a UTI. Has she been checked by the vet and a urinalysis done?
> 
> Any cat with a bladder problem - including soiling of floors, sofa and beds, should be fed a wet food diet only. No dry food at all. Wet food ensures the cat's volume of urine ncreases, becomes more dilute and the cat in encouraged to pee more often, which flushes out the bladder and reduces the risk of sludge or crystals. (Sludge or crystals can cause cystitis, and cystitis is helped by adding more water to the cat's diet, hence wet food being best)
> 
> If she is a timid cat it is worth trying her on a course of Zylkene for a month to see if it helps. Zylkene is calming supplement and I have found it can help reduce house soiling, Open the capsule and add the powder to wet food and mix.
> 
> If you read my post again, you will see that I have actually answered all the comments you made. That's why I said I had in the post. I will have her rehomed as an outdoor cat.
> You might want to try reading my post again as you'll find it answers all the comments you've made. That's why I said it would. I've run out of ideas, so I am going to rehome her as an outdoor farm cat.


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## chillminx

@buzyizzy

We quite often have new members posting asking for advice with their cat's house-soiling problems and frequently the cat's owner will say "I've tried _everything_ to resolve it" Bur when i ask for details of exactly what they've tried it transpires the owner has not literally tried "everything" and there are still other things to be tried, to address the behaviour.

I read your post and you had said you had tried "all of the above" but you did not elaborate. That is why in my reply I asked a number of reasonable questions, all posed in a friendly spirit of trying to be helpful to you. But if you don't need help that is fine by me. 

Rehoming a cat to a farm is something that should be done only for the benefit of the cat. If a cat is very independent, self-confident, likes being outdoors a lot, gets on with other cats, and is not particularly sociable with humans then life as a farm cat may possibly suit them. And as long as the farmer will be feeding the cat daily with healthy food, giving regular care ( worming & de-fleaing) and arranging vet treatment as needed. And of course providing dry, warm places for the cat to sleep.

Your description of your cat as 'not having any social skills and being mute and nervous', does not sound like a cat who will adapt to being a farm cat, or benefit from such a move, , At the Shelter where I volunteer, we have re-homed a number of cats successfully, over the years, to farms or stables. In all cases they have been feral or semi-feral cats who liked an outdoor independent life. They were not cats who liked humans much, or having cuddles and strokes.

I daresay you don't want my advice but frankly if you aren't able to keep the cat any longer it would be a kindness to find her a place in a Shelter. If they cannot resolve the soiling and rehome her then she will live at the Shelter and be allowed freedom to roam around the building and the grounds. We have several like this at the Shelter who cannot not be rehomed for behavioural reasons, and are too vulnerable and timid to be rehomed to farms or stables.


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## Mandy88

Hi! Great read. We rehomed an 11 year old cat about 4 weeks ago. He is happily using his litter tray but the last couple of weeks he has started making a mess 

He will pee normally by squatting but he will occasionally spray up the back of the tray which is against our bath (we have 3 toilets and the bathroom is less used than the others), this will then run down onto the floor under the tray. He will poo in the tray but then occasionally do a small poo on the floor and it looks like he puts his paw in it and smudges it along the floor!!

Any ideas why he is doing this and to how to stop it?


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## chillminx

Hello @Mandy88 and welcome 

It is wonderful you have rehomed an 11 yr old cat!  So often they get overlooked in the Shelters, in favour of the young cats.

Your cat needs at least two litter trays in different spots, not next to each other. Cats like to pee and poo in different places, but it may vary from day to day which tray they use for pee and which for poo. As he is an older boy I would give him 3 trays tbh. They need not be extra large trays, the number of trays is more important.

As he likes to spray in his tray he would be better with high sided trays. High-sided plastic storage boxes used without the lids are good for the purpose. Cut a hole cut in one end for him as an entrance.

This kind of box :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/75L-Large-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

[You may able to find some the same height as the one above, but not as long and wide].

Provide a fine grained clumping litter, similar to sand in texture. Most cats seem to like Worlds Best Original, Cats Best Oko Plus or Super Benek, all of which can be bought in bulk online cheaper from Zooplus UK [and others], than from High St pet stores.

Feed him a wet food diet to encourage him to empty his bladder more often, to flush his bladder out and prevent sludge or crystals developing which might cause a urinary infection and result in him avoiding the tray.

Smudging his poo along the floor sounds as though he was trying to bury it. His stools may be a bit soft if they make a smudge on the floor. Normal cat poo is firm, formed into little sausage shapes and it has a dry surface, leaving no residue or mark when picked up off the floor. A soft stool is likely to be caused by a dietary issue.


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## mrsfarq

This thread is fab, thank you! 

I have two kittens and whilst they were both mostly using the litter tray we had a couple of instances of weeing on a mat and a poo behind a chair. I had no idea I needed more than one litter tray for them until I read this thread. Since I’ve put down more trays we’ve had no issues at all. 

Also massive thank you to the people suggesting Cats Best Oko Plus. Managed to get a small bag to try in a local independent pet shop and it’s amazing stuff! 

We’ve been using catsan which we used with an older cat we had many years ago but I was having to change the whole litter try every other day because it doesn’t clump and the wee’d on litter just seems to sink to the bottom. With the Cats Best I just scoop the clumps, top it back up


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## Liv Shaw

Hi everyone I’m hoping you can help me! We have two kittens, 11 months old, but one of them has really taken to pooping outside of her tray. We have got her checked out by the vets who said there’s nothing wrong and to just keep an eye on it, but it’s been going for about a month now. 

I’ve watched/heard her in the tray and she digs excessively - we have tried putting more and more litter in but this seems to have no effect - then she jumps out and poops on the carpet next to the tray. We have tried new trays, bigger, covered, uncovered etc but she will sometimes poop in it and sometimes she will poop next to it. I’m giving her lots of positive re-enforcement when she does poop in the tray but does anybody else have any suggestions?


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## chillminx

Liv Shaw said:


> Hi everyone I'm hoping you can help me! We have two kittens, 11 months old, but one of them has really taken to pooping outside of her tray. We have got her checked out by the vets who said there's nothing wrong and to just keep an eye on it, but it's been going for about a month now.
> 
> I've watched/heard her in the tray and she digs excessively - we have tried putting more and more litter in but this seems to have no effect - then she jumps out and poops on the carpet next to the tray. We have tried new trays, bigger, covered, uncovered etc but she will sometimes poop in it and sometimes she will poop next to it. I'm giving her lots of positive re-enforcement when she does poop in the tray but does anybody else have any suggestions?


It sounds as though there is something about the trays, or the type of litter she is not comfortable with.

Cays like to pee and poo in different trays, although which tray they use for pee and which for poo, may change from day to day. How many litter trays are you providing? The minimum for 2 indoor cats is 3 trays between them. 2 outdoor cats, who toilet outside sometimes, may manage with 2 trays indoors.

At least one of the trays should be an open tray. But she may be happier if all 3 trays are open. If the other trays are covered ones, remove the door flaps permanently as cats are not keen on being completely enclosed when they toilet. Also check there is enough head room in any covered tray for a cat to squat upright inside (as they do when they poo).

Digging excessively in the tray suggests she is possibly unhappy with the litter. Which litter are you providing? Is it a clumping litter?

Most cats get on well with a fine granular clumping litter, such as Cats Best Oko Plus (made of shredded wood) or Worlds Best or Super Benek, [made of corn]. The litter in the trays should be at a depth of about 6 cm.

Poos to be removed as soon as possible after being deposited; wet clumps scooped twice a day. If she ever has diarrhoea in the tray empty the whole contents out and clean the tray with a solution of bleach so the tray doesn't smell of diarrhoea to her.

What consistency are her poos? If they are soft or loose this could be causing her to avoid the tray & poo next to it. Cats do this because they do not want to contaminate their trays. They also do it if they feel discomfort in their bowel because they associate the discomfort with the trays.

Normal stools should be firm and formed. They need to be firm in order to put the right amount of pressure in the rectum during defecation to discharge liquid from the anal glands every time she poos.. If the anal glands are not emptied they will become blocked and could become infected.


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## mrsfarq

One of my kittens has taken to pooing beside the chair in the playroom again (hidden as the chairs is next to the wall so he does it between the chair and the wall) . If I shut him out of the playroom until he’s poo’d he will do it in the litter tray but if not he will do it behind the chair. 

We only have two open littler trays, one in the lounge and one in the kitchen so I have ordered a new covered litter tray so we have 3. 

My question is, would you put the litter tray down the side of the chair (which we are able to do) where he is currently toileting and so we had one in each downstairs room (they don’t venture upstairs much yet) or would you put it somewhere else?


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## chillminx

@mrsfarq - as kitty is soiling in a rather hidden spot in the playroom it implies he has a specific reason for avoiding the litter trays. So if you put a 3rd tray in the spot where he has been soiling the chances are he may avoid it and look for somewhere else to soil. Or he may avoid it and go back to using one of his other trays for now. Either way we would not have got to the root of why he is soiling.

So it's important to try and work out why he may be soiling. 
e.g. 
1/ It could be he doesn't like the type of litter (are you providing clumping litter?) 
or
2/ it could be he doesn't like the location of one or both trays (maybe not a quiet enough place or perhaps a lack of privacy) 
or
3/ it could be he has discomfort when he poos and he is associating the tray with this, so he is avoiding the tray

Are his stools formed and firm ? But not like rocks?


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> @mrsfarq - as kitty is soiling in a rather hidden spot in the playroom it implies he has a specific reason for avoiding the litter trays. So if you put a 3rd tray in the spot where he has been soiling the chances are he may avoid it and look for somewhere else to soil. Or he may avoid it and go back to using one of his other trays for now. Either way we would not have got to the root of why he is soiling.
> 
> So it's important to try and work out why he may be soiling.
> e.g.
> 1/ It could be he doesn't like the type of litter (are you providing clumping litter?)
> or
> 2/ it could be he doesn't like the location of one or both trays (maybe not a quiet enough place or perhaps a lack of privacy)
> or
> 3/ it could be he has discomfort when he poos and he is associating the tray with this, so he is avoiding the tray
> 
> Are his stools formed and firm ? But not like rocks?


Hi Chillminx,

thank you for your help.

Yes his stool is formed and firm, not solid and is one long stool. He had a check up at the vet yesterday and everything is fine.

We have trays in the kitchen and the lounge, both open trays. The lounge one is a huge corner shaped one and the kitchen one is slightly smaller rectangle. We are using Cats best original clumping in both.

Because we have a playroom, which doubles as my office, when the children aren't at school that's where they spend their time. The lounge is mostly an adults only room and so is the quietest room in house. Similarly with the kitchen it's never really busy and noisy except for at mealtimes. The room he's chosen to soil on the carpet is the busiest room in the house.

We do have a downstairs toilet, the door of which is always slightly ajar because we have 1930s high handles and my son can't reach them, do you think putting the kitchen tray in here might help?

The new tray I've bought is covered which I thought I'd try in case it's privacy he requires but I can take the lid off it permanently if he doesn't like it.


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## chillminx

@mrsfarq - Cats Best is a good litter, and most cats like it, so I doubt the litter is the problem.

How many times a day does he poo? I would expect a kitten of his age to poo twice a day.


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> @mrsfarq - Cats Best is a good litter, and most cats like it, so I doubt the litter is the problem.
> 
> How many times a day does he poo? I would expect a kitten of his age to poo twice a day.


@chillminx yes he does poo twice a day, one normally late morning and the one evening or overnight. Interestingly he hasn't poo'd behind the chair today and poo'd in the kitchen box instead.

I usually scoop the tray twice a day for wee clumps and as soon as I notice for poo but as I work from home I've tried to be very vigilant today of cleaning out wee clumps as soon as I spot them and I wonder if this has made the difference.


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## chillminx

@mrsfarq - It could be that he is very particular about the cleanliness of his litter trays. My 2 girls are like that. They have always shared 4 litter trays since they were kittens. All 4 litter trays get used almost every day, and one girl often prefers to use one of the upstairs trays for her poos, a tray which is rarely used by either cat for pees..


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> @mrsfarq - It could be that he is very particular about the cleanliness of his litter trays. My 2 girls are like that. They have always shared 4 litter trays since they were kittens. All 4 litter trays get used almost every day, and one girl often prefers to use one of the upstairs trays for her poos, a tray which is rarely used by either cat for pees..


Thanks @chillminx I think you're right.

I have another tray coming which I will find somewhere quiet downstairs for and will probably get another one for the bathroom upstairs just to make sure we are covered. I will take cleaning lots of litter trays over cleaning the carpet  thank you again for your help.


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## mrsfarq

@chillminx as an update, yesterday was fine and then tonight Astro poo'd on the kitchen floor in front of the litter tray so something is clearly bothering him as both litter trays were completely clean and the other kitten was no where near him. My third litter tray is being delivered tomorrow so I'm hoping this helps.

The kittens are shut in the lounge overnight and he poo'd in the litter tray overnight so it's not happening all the time. He also isn't weeing on the floor, just pooing.

His poo was firm and solid but not hard. I scooped it up easily and it didn't mark the floor. Part of it was a slightly lighter brown colour and the part of it was a normal brown, I don't know if this means anything though.


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## chillminx

@mrsfarq - a slightly lighter brown colour could mean he is not digesting his food completely. Or it could be due to what he is eating. Could you remind me what foods he is having now?

Is it wet food only, or some dry, and does he have treats, cat milk or any supplements?

The other possibility could be anal gland problems. The anal glands should empty each time he defecates, but the stools need to be the of right consistency to put the correct amount of pressure on the anal glands during defecation. This means a really firm stool is best. Anal gland fluid sometimes makes part of the stool lighter in colour and softer.


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> @mrsfarq - a slightly lighter brown colour could mean he is not digesting his food completely. Or it could be due to what he is eating. Could you remind me what foods he is having now?
> 
> Is it wet food only, or some dry, and does he have treats, cat milk or any supplements?
> 
> The other possibility could be anal gland problems. The anal glands should empty each time he defecates, but the stools need to be the of right consistency to put the correct amount of pressure on the anal glands during defecation. This means a really firm stool is best. Anal gland fluid sometimes makes part of the stool lighter in colour and softer.


Thank you taking the time to respond @chillminx

He is on Feringa kitten and Whiskas kittens wet food. He has nothing else, not dry biscuits, cat milk or supplements and only has a couple of Feringa kitten treats when he has been to the vets.

I have some AVF kitten and AVF kitten pate to try in the rotation next but am waiting until next week as that will be 3 weeks after introducing the Feringa.

I feed them 5 meals a day, roughly 7am, 10am, 2pm, 6pm and 10pm. They have 50g or Feringa for the first and last meal and 50g of whiskas kitten at the other meals. Some meals they will have more than 50g as they will look for more food after they have eaten but it's usually only about 10g extra. Both are fed from a flat side plate because they eat too fast.

They also had vaccinations on Monday and I'm due to give them a wormer today - milprazon - and flea treatment - advocate - a couple of days after. The vet didn't want to overload their system with lots of medication at once so asked me to spread it out.


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## chillminx

@mrsfarq - his meals sound fine, though 9 hours is a bit of a long gap between his supper and his breakfast. I would reduce it to an 8 hour overnight fast, so his last meal is at 11 pm instead of 10 pm and his breakfast time remains at 7 am.

Did the pooing on the floor habit start after you introduced the Feringa to their diet, or was it happening before when he was only having Whiskas?


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> @mrsfarq - his meals sound fine, though 9 hours is a bit of a long gap between his supper and his breakfast. I would reduce it to an 8 hour overnight fast, so his last meal is at 11 pm instead of 10 pm and his breakfast time remains at 7 am.
> 
> Did the pooing on the floor habit start after you introduced the Feringa to their diet, or was it happening before when he was only having Whiskas?


Ok thank you @chillminx we will feed at 11pm instead.

It happened a couple of times before we moved to Feringa, always behind the same chair, but I only had one small litter tray at that time, I then read this thread about needing more. Once I added the second larger tray it stopped for a few weeks and then started again this weekend.

It doesn't appear to be everyday that he does it outside of the litter tray and he goes fine in the tray overnight.


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## chillminx

mrsfarq said:


> Ok thank you @chillminx we will feed at 11pm instead.
> 
> It happened a couple of times before we moved to Feringa, always behind the same chair, but I only had one small litter tray at that time, I then read this thread about needing more. Once I added the second larger tray it stopped for a few weeks and then started again this weekend.
> 
> It doesn't appear to be everyday that he does it outside of the litter tray and he goes fine in the tray overnight.


The reasons for a kitty soiling, especially when it's intermittent, can be elusive sometimes. I don't think it can be the litter that's the problem in Astrid's case, and possibly not the trays, (though a 3rd tray is definitely a good idea).

I'm thinking is it may be more something to do with how he feels in himself. I wonder if he would be better if you finished transferring him off the Whiskas now and fed him just Feringa until you are ready to introduce another new food. He may do better with the Animonda Vom Feinsten - I think you mentioned you are planning to introduce.


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> The reasons for a kitty soiling, especially when it's intermittent, can be elusive sometimes. I don't think it can be the litter that's the problem in Astrid's case, and possibly not the trays, (though a 3rd tray is definitely a good idea).
> 
> I'm thinking is it may be more something to do with how he feels in himself. I wonder if he would be better if you finished transferring him off the Whiskas now and fed him just Feringa until you are ready to introduce another new food. He may do better with the Animonda Vom Feinsten - I think you mentioned you are planning to introduce.


Thank you again for your advice, I really appreciate it. Yes I planning to introduce the Animonda von Feinsten kitten next and I also have some of the kitten pate.

I can certainly give them more Feringa and transition out the whiskas. Currently they are just eating the kitten chicken and rabbit but I wanted to try them with the other flavours - one is chicken and veal and the other is Turkey - would I need to introduce these slowly again or would they be ok with the same brand? They have already been having Turkey in the whiskas but veal would be a new protein to them.

I've also given the milprazon tablets today (that was fun!) and will give the advocate on Saturday as the vet said that also has wormer in it.


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## chillminx

mrsfarq said:


> Thank you again for your advice, I really appreciate it. Yes I planning to introduce the Animonda von Feinsten kitten next and I also have some of the kitten pate.
> 
> I can certainly give them more Feringa and transition out the whiskas. Currently they are just eating the kitten chicken and rabbit but I wanted to try them with the other flavours - one is chicken and veal and the other is Turkey - would I need to introduce these slowly again or would they be ok with the same brand? They have already been having Turkey in the whiskas but veal would be a new protein to them.
> 
> I've also given the milprazon tablets today (that was fun!) and will give the advocate on Saturday as the vet said that also has wormer in it.


As the other flavours are the same brand I think you could introduce them without needing to go slowly. Except for the veal - if beef is a new protein to them, I would introduce it more slowly than the others. (is there not beef in the Whiskas ?)

I'd leave it a week between giving the Milprazon and the Advocate, so their systems are not overloaded with too many chemicals at once.


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> As the other flavours are the same brand I think you could introduce them without needing to go slowly. Except for the veal - if beef is a new protein to them, I would introduce it more slowly than the others. (is there not beef in the Whiskas ?)
> 
> I'd leave it a week between giving the Milprazon and the Advocate, so their systems are not overloaded with too many chemicals at once.


No they haven't had beef in the whiskas, it's all poultry flavours (chicken, turkey and duck), I tried them with the fish ones but they wouldn't eat them so I donated them to a local shelter. I'll be sure to introduce the veal one slowly.

Thank you again for all your help @chillminx you have been amazing.


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## chillminx

Thanks hun, you are very welcome  

Just to add, the Whiskas Kitten food gives the meat ingredients as being "meat and meat-byproducts, (4% chicken or 4% poultry) " Therefore the remaining 96% of the meat content could be anything, depending on what was cheapest at the wholesalers when the pet food manufacturers were buying. It is highly likely that some of the un-named meat ingredients will be beef, but at other times, in different batches, could be lamb, pork, or turkey. But beef is most likely because it is cheaper than the others.


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> Thanks hun, you are very welcome
> 
> Just to add, the Whiskas Kitten food gives the meat ingredients as being "meat and meat-byproducts, (4% chicken or 4% poultry) " Therefore the remaining 96% of the meat content could be anything, depending on what was cheapest at the wholesalers when the pet food manufacturers were buying. It is highly likely that some of the un-named meat ingredients will be beef, but at other times, in different batches, could be lamb, pork, or turkey. But beef is most likely because it is cheaper than the others.


Oh that makes sense. I'll go a slowly with the veal just in case but sounds like they would have been exposed to some anyway.


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## mrsfarq

@chillminx as an update, turkey Feringa went down very well today, definitely a favourite I would say.

Last poo outside of the litter tray was Wednesday evening.

The new tray arrived today, it has a cover but I've left to door off, it's got a wide large base and Astro has plenty of headroom but I can take the lid off if he doesn't like it and it will still be a really roomy tray. As soon as I put it down he gave it a good sniff and hopped in for a wee 

Edited to update - 5.30pm - Astro pooped in the new tray!  He was meowing by the back door next to the kitchen tray, where he poo'd in the floor the other day - and then went off into the new tray. He doesn't seem to bury his poo (unlike Elroy who digs to China ), I don't now if the cover had made the difference or just another tray.


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## chillminx

Excellent news!

Fingers crossed @mrsfarq!


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> Excellent news!
> 
> Fingers crossed @mrsfarq!


Thank you so much for your help @chillminx and yes fingers crossed he's cracked it


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> Excellent news!
> 
> Fingers crossed @mrsfarq!


So Astro poo'd on the floor overnight right next to the litter tray, however Elroy had a loose poo overnight in this tray (and this morning which he's now on poached chicken for - separate thread) and so I think they may be why, even though there are 2 trays in there.

ETA - 6.50pm - Astro poo'd in the litter tray the first bit was formed but the second bit was really soft. I'm not sure if it is down to the wormer I gave Thursday or the turkey Feringa. The one he did on the floor last night was formed.


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## chillminx

mrsfarq said:


> So Astro poo'd on the floor overnight right next to the litter tray, however Elroy had a loose poo overnight in this tray (and this morning which he's now on poached chicken for - separate thread) and so I think they may be why, even though there are 2 trays in there.
> 
> ETA - 6.50pm - Astro poo'd in the litter tray the first bit was formed but the second bit was really soft. I'm not sure if it is down to the wormer I gave Thursday or the turkey Feringa. The one he did on the floor last night was formed.


It is possible it could be the wormer that has affected both of them with soft stools or diarrhoea. Especially as both kitties have been affected. Was the wormer Panacur ?

It may be worth putting them both on home cooked chicken for a few days until they each pass a formed firm stool. Otherwise I would be looking at the Feringa as the possible cause.


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## mrsfarq

chillminx said:


> It is possible it could be the wormer that has affected both of them with soft stools or diarrhoea. Especially as both kitties have been affected. Was the wormer Panacur ?
> 
> It may be worth putting them both on home cooked chicken for a few days until they each pass a formed firm stool. Otherwise I would be looking at the Feringa as the possible cause.


Thanks @chillminx they were wormed with milprazon. I started feeding them both the cooked chicken earlier because I didn't want Elroy to eat the kitten food and continue to upset his stomach and I thought it wouldn't hurt Astro for a few days.

I am worried it's the Feringa so I will keep them on the chicken until things have firmed up and transition them back to the chicken Feringa and then maybe introduce they turkey one using the slow introduction to see if we have any issues.

I honestly don't know what I would do without this forum :Happy


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## Jojomomo

@chillminx can I pick your brains please? Thorin is now 13 months and is regularly peeing next to one of the litter trays, under a table in the corner of the lounge. I've cleaned thoroughly with Simple Solution but he keeps going back to the spot around every other day. He pees there whether it's on carpet, reusable puppy pads, old litter tray liners that never got used or a spiky litter mat!

There are 2 other trays at opposite ends of the conservatory, he uses all trays for both pees and poos. 2 are covered, 1 open, I use Super Benek litter and scoop at least twice a day. I also have Boots who is 9. She does her business outside but also uses the tray next to the soiled spot. I originally fed them in separate areas but they prefer to share food. Thorin will chase and jump on Boots, she responds by growling. Otherwise they seem happy to eat together and sit near each other.

Thorin drinks water regularly and seems to pass good amounts of urine, he is almost exclusively wet fed. A Felliway plug in and spray applied to the area hasn't helped. He nearly always soils at night, I tried shutting him out of the lounge but he kept me awake scratching at the door! It's definitely sit down wees he does rather than spraying.

He has pooed in the area once when younger. Would you suggest putting another tray there? I also wondered about trying Pet Remedy and/or a vat visit. Apologies for the essay!


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## chillminx

Jojomomo said:


> @chillminx can I pick your brains please? Thorin is now 13 months and is regularly peeing next to one of the litter trays, under a table in the corner of the lounge. I've cleaned thoroughly with Simple Solution but he keeps going back to the spot around every other day. He pees there whether it's on carpet, reusable puppy pads, old litter tray liners that never got used or a spiky litter mat!
> 
> There are 2 other trays at opposite ends of the conservatory, he uses all trays for both pees and poos. 2 are covered, 1 open, I use Super Benek litter and scoop at least twice a day. I also have Boots who is 9. She does her business outside but also uses the tray next to the soiled spot. I originally fed them in separate areas but they prefer to share food. Thorin will chase and jump on Boots, she responds by growling. Otherwise they seem happy to eat together and sit near each other.
> 
> Thorin drinks water regularly and seems to pass good amounts of urine, he is almost exclusively wet fed. A Felliway plug in and spray applied to the area hasn't helped. He nearly always soils at night, I tried shutting him out of the lounge but he kept me awake scratching at the door! It's definitely sit down wees he does rather than spraying.
> 
> He has pooed in the area once when younger. Would you suggest putting another tray there? I also wondered about trying Pet Remedy and/or a vat visit. Apologies for the essay!


Hi @Jojomomo, I am sorry to hear you're having a problem with Thorin peeing next to the tray.

Can I just check with you - Thorin is neutered isn't he?

Sit-down pees can be a form of scent marking, just as spraying is. But sit-down peeing can also be due to a problem with the litter tray. or the litter, or the cat himself/herself having feline cystitis.

As Boots prefers the same tray that Thorin favours, perhaps it is scent marking. But as the tray is out of passing sight under the table, it is less likely the soiling is scent marking as this often tends to be done in an obvious place, e.g. in the middle of a walk-way, or on a door mat. But even so I am not ruling out scent marking.

I am not sure which tray is the open one, but for the moment I'd take the lids off all the trays to see if that helps. Are the 2 trays at the end of the conservatory in quiet spots, not right by a doorway for example?

Often with cats, resolving a soiling issue is a matter of experimenting to see what works. It is usually best not to move litter trays from their spots, so I agree to your suggestion to add a 4th (open) tray near the tray that's under the table. It needn't be a large tray, a medium size will do.

If he is mostly on a wet food diet and is producing several nice big pees a day without any straining, it is less likely to be a dietary issue. Is his wet food high in meat protein and also grain free, so as to keep his urine acidic as it should be? How much dry food does he have a day (by the tablespoonful or by weight?)

I do think it likely there is competition going on between Boots and Thorin for resources (litter trays being a major feline resource). It's possible that as Boots favours the tray under the table she may have guarded her resource and deliberately blocked Thorin from using it. Instead of Thorin going to one of the other trays he's responded competitively by soiling next to the tray.

If Thorin is still chasing and pouncing on Boots she may be finding that pretty tiresome. I know my older cat (aged 11), a very tolerant sweet natured boy, finds it really annoying if one of my younger cats chases him or jumps on him indoors. [Less annoying if it happens out in the garden.]

I am surprised to hear Boots doesn't mind Thorin sharing her food. It is very unusual for an adult cat to allow this if they have not grown up with the other cat. Are you sure that Thorin is not pushing in and putting Boots off her food? This could be an issue for Boots if so.

Personally I think Boots needs to be left in peace when she is eating, and to know that her food resources are safe from Thorin. I would discourage them from sharing food, because it so often leads to trouble with adult cats. Could Boots maybe have her own microchipped feeder? And also maybe feed one cat at a higher level than the other, e.g. a table, or worktop.

It is often the case that cats who are strangers sharing a home choose to sit near each other, so each cat can keep an eye on what the other cat is doing. It can denote wariness and resource guarding more than friendliness and acceptance. If Boots and Thorin were curling up for sleep right next to each other, (literally with their fur almost touching) or were grooming each other, that would be more a clear sign of friendship.

I'd use a stronger solution than Simple to clean the areas Thorin has soiled. I recommend a solution of a stain remover called "Bio Tex" which has the advantage of smelling quite pleasant, as well as being effective at removing urine smells from carpets.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-Stain-Remover-Powder-500g/dp/B00BAQJBD0/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1N0J7NU4AJBXH&dchild=1&keywords=biotex+stain+removing+powder+520g&qid=1607181207&sprefix=bio+Tex,aps,149&sr=8-2

Please let us know how things go .


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## chillminx

@Jojomomo - sorry I forgot to answer your query about Pet Remedy. It contains valerian which is a sedative. I am not sure how helpful it would be for your two as they are not actually being physically aggressive to each other. It does make cats quite sleepy all the time (humans too! ). I would prefer to give Boots a calming supplement such as Zylkene for a month to see if that relaxes her a bit. Possibly give Thorin Zylkene too as he is the one soiling.

The capsule can be opened and the powder added to wet food.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetoquinol-Zylkene-Capsules-Small-20-Count/dp/B00K06MAK2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2H927PVTV5F96&dchild=1&keywords=zylkene+75mg+for+cats&qid=1607182659&sprefix=zylkene+,aps,155&sr=8-1.


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## Jojomomo

@chillminx thank you for the comprehensive reply!

Thorin is neutered, he was done slightly late at 8 months due to lockdown.

The lounge tray is covered, as is the one at the end of the conservatory, near the back door. The other tray is open and near the door leading to the bedroom. The conservatory is a fairly quiet room and mostly dedicated to the cats!

I started out feeding them separately in different rooms but they both gradually started to eat each others food. Boots does actually have a microchip feeder which I mostly use for a little dry food, though Thorin does manage to muscle in sometimes.

Your point on signs of friendship is interesting, I think that they tolerate each other, well Boots tolerates Thorin!

Thank you for the Bio Tex tip, will definitely prefer some and look into the Zylkene too.

Thanks again, I shall report back!


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## hubballi

Our two 15 year old cats use the same enclosed litter tray which is large. We cannot under any circumstances accommodate another tray as this one takes up enough space in our small kitchen. We have one cat that seems to sneak into the front room and pee up the wall and on the floor. The tray is always kept clean which he uses. He had only just used the tray earlier for a number 2 so why would he later go in the front room to pee ? He was neutered years ago so it doesn't have that Tom smell so its a mystery and quite depressing as the last cat we had did this, which is why (we have a small house compared to most) we said we wouldn't have any more pets as much as we love them. Unfortunately my mum passed away and we had to give them a home but its pretty much taken our life over. The garden is also small and limited in places to go so they tend to go in my raised beds (which are my limited veg growing spaces) but with the winter, wet and cold weather they are using the tray even more. What I cant understand is why he still uses the tray in the utility area but pees in the front room. The two of them have been together since kittens and often curl up and groom each other. Glad to have them but its a mystery. They are not stressed with the new house as they are now very well adjusted.


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## chillminx

hubballi said:


> Our two 15 year old cats use the same enclosed litter tray which is large. We cannot under any circumstances accommodate another tray as this one takes up enough space in our small kitchen. We have one cat that seems to sneak into the front room and pee up the wall and on the floor. The tray is always kept clean which he uses. He had only just used the tray earlier for a number 2 so why would he later go in the front room to pee ? He was neutered years ago so it doesn't have that Tom smell so its a mystery and quite depressing as the last cat we had did this, which is why (we have a small house compared to most) we said we wouldn't have any more pets as much as we love them. Unfortunately my mum passed away and we had to give them a home but its pretty much taken our life over. The garden is also small and limited in places to go so they tend to go in my raised beds (which are my limited veg growing spaces) but with the winter, wet and cold weather they are using the tray even more. What I cant understand is why he still uses the tray in the utility area but pees in the front room. The two of them have been together since kittens and often curl up and groom each other. Glad to have them but its a mystery. They are not stressed with the new house as they are now very well adjusted.


The reason why he uses the tray for poo and then pees in the front room is because cats like to pee and poo in different places. It is natural behaviour for them when they are outdoors to pee in one place and then move to a different place if they also need a poo. I expect in the warm weather they manage by peeing or pooing in the garden.

I am sorry but having only one tray for 2 cats is not meeting their basic toiletting requirements. 3 trays are the minimum requirement, but if they have access to outdoors and you have made them a latrine in one corner of your garden, then your cats may manage indoors with only 2 trays. But no less than 2, because as I say, they need to pee and poo in different places. (Please note that which tray they use for pee and which for poo may change from day to day).

Two medium to large size trays are always much better for cats than one huge tray. Because they can be placed in different spots. if your kitchen will only accommodate one tray then I advise you to put at least one tray somewhere else in the house, such as in the bathroom, landing, hallway, or spare bedroom . But make sure the cats always have full access to it (i.e. the door never gets closed if the tray is in a room such as a bathroom).

Both trays provided should be open trays. But if one is a covered tray, please make sure there is enough headroom for a cat to squat upright as they do when they poo. The headroom needs to be at least 46 cms. And if there is a flap on the door please remove it, because cats hate being enclosed when they are at their toilet.

if the latrine area in the garden is on a raised bed, can the cats both jump up there safely (as they are senior cats)? The latrine will need digging over every few days (including through the winter) to keep the soil soft and moveable for the cats to be able to dig a hole.

Also you will need to scoop out the poo deposits from the garden latrine at least once a week, and bag and bin the deposits. Cat poo takes about 6 months to decompose in the soil, and if you don't remove it from the border/bed, the latrine will soon be full of poo and the cats will go somewhere else such as among your vegetables or worse still, in a neighbour's garden.

Also leaving poo to decompose in the soil if you are a gardener, would be a health hazard.


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## hubballi

I am sorry but to suggest us to have 3 trays is absolutely not doable. Again, we have NOT the space and do not want the house turning into a cat's toilet. I will just have to close off the doors to rooms to stop him peeing. And this is only the 1 cat that does this as the ginger Tom uses the tray for everything. I have never heard of cats needing exclusive trays for pee and poo. Other cats we have had have managed in the same tray so this one is a huge enclosed (door flap always left open) I also clean out the garden of poo regular, a depressing enough job when I am trying to grow veg. It's just so depressing as we are now stuck with a problem we didn't choose to have, as much as we love cats.


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## chillminx

No, cats do not need trays "exclusively" for pee and poo, that's not what I said. They need to be able to poo and pee in different places, which means they need a choice of at least 2 trays to meet their needs. So if one tray is full of pee they can use the other tray for their poo. Or if one tray has poo in it they can use the other tray for their pee. I hope that clarifies it. 

Your ginger cat is not soiling the floor with urine, so you are fortunate he is not copying the other cat. He is evidently more easy going, less fussy than your other cat with his toilet.

In my many years of experience of living with cats the fact they need at least 2 trays is normal amongst domestic cats. Certainly all the professional cat behaviour experts agree with it.

I can tell you that many, many times the act of adding an extra litter tray often resolves a soiling issue.


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## hubballi

Well in that case we can’t afford the space for another tray so we are stuck with it. Incidentally, he doesn’t always do this.


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## chillminx

hubballi said:


> Well in that case we can't afford the space for another tray so we are stuck with it. Incidentally, he doesn't always do this.


It is possible to be imaginative and create space for an extra tray by putting it above floor level, e.g. on a deep shelf (to fit a tray) that one has put up especially for the purpose. Just ensure there is a safe way up and down (shelves below or mini steps) for your 2 senior cats. I had to do this years ago when I took my cats on holiday with me to a caravan. There was not enough floor space for more than one litter tray, so I put the other two trays on shelves. All trays got used.

The reason your cat does not soil every day is because his behaviour is a direct reaction to the (pee or poo) contents of the litter tray, and inevitably that situation will differ from day to day, depending on how much the tray has been used.


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## hubballi

Again, it is not possible to accommodate another tray. The tray was dry and yet he just went to the top of the stairs and peed. Its just so depressing and quite wearing as he never seems to settle as he tries to go in every room but can’t be trusted. in all the years of having cats from childhood, this is a first.


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## mrsfarq

hubballi said:


> Again, it is not possible to accommodate another tray. The tray was dry and yet he just went to the top of the stairs and peed. Its just so depressing and quite wearing as he never seems to settle as he tries to go in every room but can't be trusted. in all the years of having cats from childhood, this is a first.


Your poor cat  I imagine this is quite distressing for him. Cats don't urinate outside of the litter tray to be naughty, they do it because they are uncomfortable with something and shutting him out of every room will be even more distressing to him.

Have you had him checked for a UTI?

Although I do agree with @chillminx that more trays would be a good place to start. Unless you work out what the problem is and try to solve it then I imagine he will just carry on urinating outside of the litter tray.


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## chillminx

hubballi said:


> Again, it is not possible to accommodate another tray. The tray was dry and yet he just went to the top of the stairs and peed. Its just so depressing and quite wearing as he never seems to settle as he tries to go in every room but can't be trusted. in all the years of having cats from childhood, this is a first.


I think as mrsfarq mentioned, you would be best to have your cat checked for a urinary tract infection as soon as possible. There is possibly something physical underlying all this, that's bothering him.

Has your cat had a vet checkup and blood test in the last 6 months for the common diseases of older cats ? Kidney disease can cause tray avoidance, but behaviour can also be affected by e.g. Hyperthyroidism, Diabetes Mellitus, high blood pressure. Untreated kidney disease can cause related dementia which can affect cat behaviour in many ways.

At the age of 15, chronic disease can become apparent within a matter of months, so if he had a blood test e.g. 6 mths ago with normal results, it may not necessarily mean things are all still normal..

If he does not have a UTI, he could have feline cystitis.

Do you feed him wet food only? I wouldn't give a cat with any kind of urinary issues any dry food.

Have you had a cat before with kidney disease? It can be managed with medicines and diet.


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## Shehryar Awan

My 3 y/o Persian was spayed back in 2019, but sadly that vet left some ovarian tissue behind which caused her to continue showing symptoms of heat up until recently. Another vet diagnosed this issue and I had her operated on again last Saturday, 2nd Jan.
However, a few months ago she developed a habit of urinating near the right-hand corner near the headboard of a bed in my guestroom. Every time it was the exact same spot. Yesterday, I opened her from her carrier-cage to let her relieve herself and she side-stepped the litter tray and went straight to that spot and urinated there again. The vet says she's developed a habit of urinating there that needs to be broken and recommends around 10 days of restricting her from that bedroom. I have begun that, but am still worried it might not be enough. Is there any other way I could help break her habit?


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## chillminx

Shehryar Awan said:


> My 3 y/o Persian was spayed back in 2019, but sadly that vet left some ovarian tissue behind which caused her to continue showing symptoms of heat up until recently. Another vet diagnosed this issue and I had her operated on again last Saturday, 2nd Jan.
> However, a few months ago she developed a habit of urinating near the right-hand corner near the headboard of a bed in my guestroom. Every time it was the exact same spot. Yesterday, I opened her from her carrier-cage to let her relieve herself and she side-stepped the litter tray and went straight to that spot and urinated there again. The vet says she's developed a habit of urinating there that needs to be broken and recommends around 10 days of restricting her from that bedroom. I have begun that, but am still worried it might not be enough. Is there any other way I could help break her habit?


Hello and welcome 

Your cat will have kept going back to the same spot because of the smell of her urine, so it became a habit for her to use that spot. Remember that a cat's sense of smell is much, much stronger than a human's, so that even if you can't smell the urine on the floor, the cat will be able to.

You will need to get rid of any residual odour of urine completely. If there is carpet in the room, it will be by now saturated in the smell of urine so it is best to take it up and dispose of it. Also remove any underlay and dispose of it.

The urine will probably have gone through the carpet and underlay to the floor boards so you will need to scrub the floor with an enzyme cleaner. One of the best is Bio Tex stain remover, which works well and has the advantage of smelling quite nice (unlike some).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bio-Tex-Stain-Remover-Powder-500g/dp/B00BAQJBD0/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1M4URAHJZY32Z&dchild=1&keywords=biotex+stain+removing+powder&qid=1609853315&sprefix=bio+tex+,aps,152&sr=8-2

If you don't have carpet on the guest room floor, but have a wooden floor, then it is a matter of scrubbing it with the Bio Tex. Perhaps scrub it several times to be sure.

If it were me I would keep the door closed permanently, so the cat has no access to the room. If that is not possible, then shut her out of the room for at least 3 months. 10 days is definitely not long enough to change a habit that has been going on for 2 years.

Other things are important too e.g. ensure she has enough litter trays. If she's your only cat she needs at least 2 trays, preferably open trays. But if they're covered trays remove the door flaps permanently, because cats dislike toiletting in an enclosed space.

I would provide her with 3 trays as she has had a soiling problem. They need not be XL trays - the important factor is she has 3 separate trays in different spots (or at least 2 trays minimum anyway)

If you have other cats then you need 2 trays plus an extra tray for every cat. i.e 3 trays for 2 cats, 4 trays for 3 cats etc.

Provide a fine granular clumping litter such as Cats Best Oko Plus, Worlds Best Original or Super Benek etc. Scoop the wet clumps at least twice a day and remove the poo soon after it has been deposited.

Feed a wet food diet so that she is getting plenty of fluids in her diet. This will increase the volume of her urine and encourage her to empty her bladder more often, which will flush through the bladder and reduce the risk of crystals in the urine.


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## Shehryar Awan

Thank you for the response.
A few points I wanna clarify, first that this habit of particularly spraying on the exact same spot has actually only been going on for a few months now, starting around the end of summer 2020. Prior to that, she would urinate outside of the litter tray, but only during heat cycles and randomly, i.e. sometimes one bed, sometimes a carpet. Then she chose this bed and has been continually urinating on it since late-summer 2020.
Currently, she does have 2 trays, they're actually pretty good-sized although I do have another male cat in the house too. The bed that I'm referring to which she keeps soiling is actually located within the room in which her litter tray and food are located. It is a pretty large and airy bedroom though and the windows are open to remove any smell, so I don't think that has any link with it.

I was thinking of 3 solutions: 

1. I could replace the bedcover with a new one & spray the new bedcover with a deterrent-smelling spray i.e. lavender/citronella/lemon essential oil & water combination or something of that sort. Perhaps that might deter her from spraying on that bed. 
2. I could remove the mattress of the bed for a few months leaving just the frame in the room. 
3. I could disassemble the entire bed & remove it from the room for a certain period.

However, all 3 of these options (especially the latter 2) would be useless if she starts urinating on some other piece of furniture which isn't so easily replaceable/expendable. Would any of these solutions credibly work considering she's been spayed now & hopefully won't be spraying anything else? Do you think it's necessary to remove the bed/mattress or can simply disinfecting it & spraying a deterrent work?


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## chillminx

Sorry, I didn't realise she was actually soiling the bed and the urine is on the mattress. I thought it was the floor by the bed.

It doesn't matter how airy the room is, the cat is drawn to the spot where she has soiled before. She regards this spot as one of her toilets or her favourite scent marking spot. That is how cats behave.

If you have not taken the precaution of protecting the mattress with a waterproof mattress cover then the urine will have got right down inside the mattress and it is doubtful you will get rid of the smell. In most cases it is better to throw out the mattress and buy a new one, when this happens.

If you don't want to replace the mattress then I can only suggest removing it from the room, cleaning it thoroughly, so it is soaked with the stain remover and then leaving it standing on its side to dry right through for a few weeks., longer if possible.

Then put the mattress back on the bed, cover it with a waterproof mattress cover (cheap to buy one of the waterproof towelling type from amazon), and placing a waterproof duvet cover over the top of the bedcover. This means that if she pees on the bed, it is easy to remove the waterproof cover for laundering. And it will save your mattress from being soiled again.

I see no point really in spraying the bed with lavender/citronella etc as I doubt it will deter her. I have never found cats are deterred by perfumed sprays, in fact in some cases it seems to make them more determined to put their own scent mark on top of the perfumed smell.

And as you say, spraying the bed may even result in her shifting her scent marking to another piece of furniture.

My advice is to use waterproof mattress covers to protect all the beds in your house in case she scent marks another bed. None of my cats has ever soiled the human beds but I have always had waterproof mattress covers on just in case. Mattresses are easily ruined by cat pee and too expensive to keep replacing.

A waterproof duvet cover, or even an old shower curtain, placed on top of the bed will be easy to launder. Or buy a couple so you can always replace a soiled one with a clean one straight away. Use unscented laundry liquid so the cat does not feel she needs to cover up the smell of the stuff with her urine.

As you have 2 cats, I would definitely add at least one more tray. This in itself may be enough to stop the cat soiling on the bed. But do still protect the beds!


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## mrsfarq

We are still having a problem with Astro pooing on the floor. I was hoping now he is better it would have resolved itself but it hasn’t. He is 19 weeks now so I’d like to get this sorted soon.

We have 5 litter trays, 2 in the lounge (at opposite ends) which is their base room and where they sleep overnight, one in the office/dining room, one in the kitchen and 1 in the upstairs bathroom.

Astro has always wee’d in the litter tray and never outside it so we don’t have a problem with that and he poos right next to the litter tray rather than somewhere completely different.

When he does poo in the litter tray, which happens very occasionally, he doesn’t dig or cover it, he just goes in, poo’d and gets out again. When he poo’s on the floor he will manically scratch the carpet next to the tray, then poo and then try and scratch over it. If I catch him before he poo’s (after hearing the scratching) and put him in the litter tray then he will poo in the tray. Yesterday he choose to poo next to the tray in the office/dining room where the whole family was (home working and kids at home) rather than in one of the other quieter rooms. This is when I put him in the tray mid squat. 

His is currently eating hills i/d wet food and AVF for neutered cats pure turkey and his poo is perfect (finally). We also use cats best original cat litter in all our trays.

Any thoughts on what this could be? Or how to get him to go in the tray?


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## coolcatlily

I recently came across a new subscription litter box service and my cat loves it! They basically send you a box with the litter in it each month and everything is biodegradable - I'm obsessed! They're called Kitty Litter Box


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## chillminx

coolcatlily said:


> I recently came across a new subscription litter box service and my cat loves it! They basically send you a box with the litter in it each month and everything is biodegradable - I'm obsessed! They're called Kitty Litter Box


Hello and welcome 

But Kitty Litter Box is not very economical when you work it out. The minimum requirement for one cat is 2 litter boxes. For my 4 cats I have 5 litter boxes (though 2 of the cats toilet in my garden anyway most of the time).

A 12.5 kg bag of Worlds Best litter costs me £30 and lasts at least 2 months. Far less than 5 Kitty Litter Boxes would cost me a month!

Silica based litter is as ecologically unfriendly as clay litter. Silica and clay are indestructible in nature, therefore they do not break down when used in cat litter. Silica litter ends up sitting in a landfill forever. The sand mining process, while not as disastrous as strip mining, causes considerable damage to the environment.

It is more ecologically sound to use litter made from materials that are biodegradable. e.g. cereals, shredded wood, walnut shells, wood pellets etc.


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## Dreamiesburglar

I was surprised to read two trays per cat are recommended. I've had many cats and known several people with cats. 
We always used just one per cat and they've never soiled the floors or carpets and always used their trays. Maybe we all got lucky! 
Some were outdoor cats also and would do their business only outside I'll admit but the ones with a tray were perfectly happy with one only for themselves.
We cat-sit for one of my partner's coworkers sometimes. He has two Persian cats who share one litter tray happily. They do get along very well so I guess that's why they don't mind sharing.

With our litter tray we line it with a strong plastic bag. The litter tray goes inside the bag and we pour the litter on top of the bag so it all flattens out nicely.
My partner gets so many of these bags for free at work and they're strong and large.
We used this method with our late cat and now with our new cat Luna. No ripping ever occurred.
It really makes changing the whole tray a breeze. Cats don't seem to mind at all.


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## chillminx

Dreamiesburglar said:


> I was surprised to read two trays per cat are recommended. I've had many cats and known several people with cats.
> We always used just one per cat and they've never soiled the floors or carpets and always used their trays. Maybe we all got lucky!
> Some were outdoor cats also and would do their business only outside I'll admit but the ones with a tray were perfectly happy with one only for themselves.
> We cat-sit for one of my partner's coworkers sometimes. He has two Persian cats who share one litter tray happily. They do get along very well so I guess that's why they don't mind sharing.
> 
> With our litter tray we line it with a strong plastic bag. The litter tray goes inside the bag and we pour the litter on top of the bag so it all flattens out nicely.
> My partner gets so many of these bags for free at work and they're strong and large.
> We used this method with our late cat and now with our new cat Luna. No ripping ever occurred.
> It really makes changing the whole tray a breeze. Cats don't seem to mind at all.


You are lucky you have had very obliging cats.  Not all cats are so tolerant and some are very particular indeed about their litter trays.

I would certainly never expect 2 cats to share one tray between them. In the more than 50 years I have had cats I have never expected 2 cats to share one tray. The fact that cats instinctively prefer to pee and poo in different places would preclude me considering restricting them to one tray between them.

But however the rule of thumb for litter trays is not "one per cat" [as you said[ it is "a minimum of one per cat plus one extra", e.g. for one cat it is 2 trays, for 2 cats it is 3 trays, for 3 cats it is 4 trays, for 4 cats it is 5 trays and so on.

Probably a large household of 8 cats might not have 9 trays, and perhaps 6 trays might be the case. I can't say, because I have never had more than 5 cats at any one time. However for 5 cats I had 7 trays. At the moment I have 4 cats and 5 trays. All trays get used.


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## Dreamiesburglar

chillminx said:


> You are lucky you have had very obliging cats.  Not all cats are so tolerant and some are very particular indeed about their litter trays.
> 
> I would certainly never expect 2 cats to share one tray between them. In the more than 50 years I have had cats I have never expected 2 cats to share one tray. The fact that cats instinctively prefer to pee and poo in different places would preclude me considering restricting them to one tray between them.
> 
> But however the rule of thumb for litter trays is not "one per cat" [as you said[ it is "a minimum of one per cat plus one extra", e.g. for one cat it is 2 trays, for 2 cats it is 3 trays, for 3 cats it is 4 trays, for 4 cats it is 5 trays and so on.
> 
> Probably a large household of 8 cats might not have 9 trays, and perhaps 6 trays might be the case. I can't say, because I have never had more than 5 cats at any one time. However for 5 cats I had 7 trays. At the moment I have 4 cats and 5 trays. All trays get used.


No, I know it's at least one plus another one per cat. I said I was surprised to read that more than one is recommended per cat. In my view (my view only) more than one per single cat would have been an exception for a particularly fussy cat. Like I've said I've had many cats throughout my life and known other cat owners and I've never personally seen a single cat having 2 or 3 trays. So it really surprised me personally. We've been very lucky it seems

I never said that I expected two cats to share one of course. I would think of course they need at least one only for themselves. I just said those 2 particular cats I know have one and share it fine so it depends on your cat/cats.
I'd put down one for a single cat and see how they do then buy more if they prove to be fussy cats. If I had more than one cat they would have a tray each minimum and I'd see how they do before buying more.
That's what has worked for me so far and lucky for me never found a single cat required 2 or more trays for their business. I just spoke for myself and people I know. I hope it was clear I wasn't saying I think that rule of thumb of one minimum per cat plus another one is untrue in general or that I think a single cat can't have more than one tray.
I said what I said mainly so owners and especially first time cat owners can see it's not necessarily true their cat will need multiple ones or that giving them one tray only is bad if their cat can use only one tray for both peeing and pooping without problems. I hope that's ok to say.
Well I think if you give more than than one from the start they will use them all because they're available. That doesn't necessarily mean for example that 4 cats wouldn't be ok with 4 trays instead of 5. It could be that if you give them more they will see there are more and end up using them. 
I just wanted to give a different experience to say it's also normal to find cats that can be fine with using a single tray for their business basically.


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## chillminx

@Dreamiesburglar

Yes, our domestic cats are a very adaptable species, generally willing to tolerate whatever resources the owner chooses to provide for them. Which is fortunate when you think about it or else there would probably be a lot of distressed cats around.

For me it's about studying cat behaviour, which includes my 50 years experience of living with cats, plus my yeas of work in Rescue, including fostering mums and kittens, and also oldies. It also has included reading many scientific journal studies over the years, and books written by reputable behavioural experts. I use that knowledge to provide feline resources that enable cats to exhibit as far as possible their natural behaviours. Nothing is perfect of course.

If you can give me links to genuine expert scientific peer-reviewed articles that give a well-argued case against my above comments, I will be interested to read them.


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## Mcs1234

Hi,

I haven't looked through the whole thread, so apologies if this has already come up. 

I've had my cat for around 2.5 years now and previously she has always used her litter tray.

Around 6 weeks ago I noticed urine by my sliding back door which leads to the conservatory and my cat's cat flap. I didn't really think much of it, other than it being very odd. But four weeks later it happened again.

She has since done this another few times which were front of me. Each time it has been because I have closed the door so she can't go out, but not immediately gone upstairs to bed (she seems fine if I go straight up, but if I finish a programme first for example she will go crazy at the door then urinate), and once because I was brushing my teeth with the bathroom door closed and she wanted to come in which I didn't realise, she urinated by the bathroom door in this instance.

She is still regularly using her litter tray whether she is originally upstairs, downstairs or even outside, and these occurances have only been on occasion when it seems she gets very frustrated at the door being closed.

I took her to the vet today to rule out any medical issues, and although they didn't test her for anything they did a health check and said she is fine health-wise, they don't believe this is linked to a medical issue. They did suggest getting a second litter tray and changing the litter we use.

She has always been fine with her tray, which I clean regularly, and the litter used. When we previously tried a finer litter as suggested by the vet, she didn't like it as it would get stuck in her paws.

I just wondered whether anyone else has had this issue and whether adding a tray or changing the litter has helped? 

I am thinking that this may be more of a behavioural issue, but I don't know why it has started or how to help stop this.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated please.


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## Jenbob21

I've not had issues with urinating, but when we moved house one of my cats was going out of his way to poo in a certain place. I added another tray as close to the spot as I could(despite having 3 already for 2 cats!) and it stopped as randomly as it started.
May be worth adding another tray if you can as a first step, it may be a simple solution and not too much wasted if it works.


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## Mcs1234

Jenbob21 said:


> I've not had issues with urinating, but when we moved house one of my cats was going out of his way to poo in a certain place. I added another tray as close to the spot as I could(despite having 3 already for 2 cats!) and it stopped as randomly as it started.
> May be worth adding another tray if you can as a first step, it may be a simple solution and not too much wasted if it works.


Thank you for responding. You're right, it's definitely worth a go! I've ordered another tray to collect tomorrow, hopefully it'll be as simple as that!


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## Annie morgan

I have a serial house pooper. To note, they are house cats. Only 1 has an issue with soiling outside the tray.
We have exhausted every avenue with litter trays, feliway plug ins, checks at the vet, different litters, Thoroughly cleaning the area, ensuring litter boxes are hidden away to provide privacy.
Food and drink are away from the litter boxes too. And we have 2 cats so we have 3 litter boxes.

I think my next option is going to have to be a cat behaviourist. The soiling outside the tray has happened since our little one came along so i think that's the source but we can't find anything to help with that. 

Thank you for the detailed list. It certainly helped being able to go through everything to ensure we've tried it all. 

Will look up behaviourists now.


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## Isabella C

very useful, thanks for this information


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## Annealise

My three old indoor Male cat has started pooping on the fitted mat by the front door ever since his check up at the vets 5 weeks ago. I’ve been using feliway diffusersI and calming supplements thinking he was stressed. I put a spare litter tray on the mat and he ignores it and will then use his usual one. However as soon as I remove the spare one on the mat he reverts back to pooping there again.

A neighbour now tells me there’s a female cat that’s visiting my front garden in the early hours. I suspect perhaps my cat can smell that a cat has been outside the front door and is upset and marking his territory. What can I do now please I’ve had weeks of this and tried everything.


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## LindaGrace46

great thread this what I want to ask is my cat urinated on the carpet this morning but rest of the day in her 2 trays?


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## huckybuck

LindaGrace46 said:


> great thread this what I want to ask is my cat urinated on the carpet this morning but rest of the day in her 2 trays?


That sounds quite a lot of wees. Could she have cystitis?


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## huckybuck

Annealise said:


> My three old indoor Male cat has started pooping on the fitted mat by the front door ever since his check up at the vets 5 weeks ago. I’ve been using feliway diffusersI and calming supplements thinking he was stressed. I put a spare litter tray on the mat and he ignores it and will then use his usual one. However as soon as I remove the spare one on the mat he reverts back to pooping there again.
> 
> A neighbour now tells me there’s a female cat that’s visiting my front garden in the early hours. I suspect perhaps my cat can smell that a cat has been outside the front door and is upset and marking his territory. What can I do now please I’ve had weeks of this and tried everything.


If the spare tray on the mat is stopping him I’d just leave a spare there. You could always reduce the size to a kitten one when you know he’s def not going there.


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## LindaGrace46

i took her to a vet and they said after getting a sample that they thought it ciuld be but would need to get another sample in 2 weeks. They also gave vet pro healthy urinary tract function tablets. She has just done it on the carpet. Does it sound bad that all this is quite stressful been going on for a week.


huckybuck said:


> That sounds quite a lot of wees. Could she have cystitis?


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## OrientalSlave

LindaGrace46 said:


> i took her to a vet and they said after getting a sample that they thought it ciuld be but would need to get another sample in 2 weeks. They also gave vet pro healthy urinary tract function tablets. She has just done it on the carpet. Does it sound bad that all this is quite stressful been going on for a week.


For those of you wondering what is in the tablets:

N-Acetyl D-Glucosamine, Quercetin and L-Tryptophan 

From Healthy Urinary Tract Function. The page explains what each ingredient is for.

The tablets don't work instantly, you need to give them time. Also read the iCatCare article about this problem. It gives quite a few other ways to look at the issue:






Soiling indoors | International Cat Care


The cat is usually fastidious about its toilet habits and will consistently use a litter tray indoors if it is provided, or loose earth or sand outside in the garden.




icatcare.org


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## Annealise

huckybuck said:


> If the spare tray on the mat is stopping him I’d just leave a spare there. You could always reduce the size to a kitten one when you know he’s def not going there.


Alas, he started pooping at the side of the spare. tray. A female cat has been seen by my neighbour hanging around our door. I’m trying out things to get rid of her scent now as I think this could have upset him for all these weeks.


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