# Help! Very worried I'm hurting my fish



## alanasomething

Hello sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, but I just joined today as I am really worried about my fish. I have had my goldfish that I won from a fare about 17 years ago. He has lived in a few different tanks since then, at first I had him and another fish in the tank (no idea what size but probably not big enough ) but "Prawncocktail" died after about 15 years. I don't know what happened, one day he floated to the top and my mum flushed him .

Now "Goldie" was in the tank on his own and has almost doubled in size, so I felt really terrible for him because I looked up how big a tank should be, and found out mine wasn't even close to the right size!

We never had a filter, never used anything in the water, just straight from the tap. We did not do 50% or 20% changes, we just empty all the water out, and put new water in. When the water was dirty we would put him in a basin and clean the tank out, sometime's he would stay in the basin overnight and seemed fine. Now his new tank is 23L and it seems like a great size for him. We moved all his little stones and his bridge ornament into his new tank, but put him into the tank too as his old one is starting to leak and I felt so sorry for him in the small tank. But now I'm reading about nitrogen cycles and how I should have waited a week before putting him in the new tank?! He's in it now and it's 3.30am and I'm so worried he is stressed or in pain or dying because we've put him in. 

I can't go take him out now because everyone is in bed but I'm just wondering, because now that he is used to our (clearly terrible ) care, will he be ok in the new tank? We put some water solution in with it, which we've never used before, to take the bad bacteria out the water and add good bacteria?

Also when I went down to check on him, there is little bubbles on the walls of the tank?

I'm so worried, I hope someone can help, I really don't want to go downstairs tomorrow and find he is dead because of me trying to make him happier.


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## Fishyfins

hey there

firstly, id just like to say its good to see your trying to help your goldfish, and do the best you can for him! sadly however, sorry to be the earer of bad news, but 23L is stil far short of the minimum sizes needed for a goldfish. if he is a fancy goldfish (such as an oranda, or moor... ie one of the "round" oes", then he will need at least 50L to be truly happy and healthy. if he is a standard goldfish (shubunkin, comet and the like... ie, the "long thin" ones), then you need to give them about 100L per fish!
these are the figures given by the goldfish experts, and the minimum sizes shown through scientific research. anything less, and your fish are gonna be having problems!

as to how you set up a new tank, you have correctly identified the need to cycle the new tank prior to adding the fish. however, with you saying a week, i think the website you have been getting your info from might not be a good one. typically, a cycle of a new tank takes 3-6 weeks to be completed, not a single week. there are very few reliable ways of speeding it up, and the process can be daunting and complicated to someone new to the game.
however! this is probably one of the only times i would ever suggest this, but as the fish has been living all its life in an unfiltered tank, then they are probably hardy enough to withstand another few weeks. it may not be ideal, but it may be suitable in this case, and this case only, to drop him straight in.

what i suggest you do, is find a better website to get your info from (as i say, reccomending a 20 or so L tank, and a week cycle is not good information, and very false) i suggest Latest | Practical Fishkeeping.
then, you need to go out and buy a bigger tank (50L min for fancy, 100L min for standard goldies, per fish), and either leave him there as you cycle the tank for 3 weeks, or pop him right in and keep an eye on things.

hope this helps, if you need any more info, or wanna ask any more questions, then go right ahead, its what were here for 

Fishy


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## alanasomething

Oh no  I spent a lot of money on that tank because it says it is big enough for 3 goldfish (he isn't a fancy one, he's the one that needs the 100L!!!) and I didn't get any information online, it was the man at Pets At Home that told my dad the tank will be more than enough size for my 1 fish, and it tells you on the box of the tank "3 goldfish" and it tells you about the nitrogen cycle on the back too, and says to leave the tank for 7 days... I wont have enough money for a bigger tank or any room  I thought I was doing my wee fish a favour by getting him a bigger home, when I've pretty much made his life a misery so far, I feel terrible. We thought he was happy because he lived so long, and his ""brother" did too.

Could you tell me how they have lived so long under those conditions? I would understand if it was just the one fish, but they both lived a long time compaired to some people's fish who were bough from aquariums and lived in tanks with everything done properly?

*PS: Before my dad went to Pets At Home for the tank, I googled tanks, but they were all £200+ that would be the size you mentioned. Could you link me to cheaper tanks that are big enough? Because I know I cannot afford anything at £200, especially since we've bought this new tank for no reason *


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## Fishyfins

yeah, a lot of shops arnt to be trusted with advice they give. Pets at Home especially. i worked for them for 3 years, i should know. they are a business at the end of the day, and need to make money, but this often comes at a loss to animal welfare, and fish are usually the least respected.

as for why they have lived so long, then that isnt so easy to explain. goldfish do have an average life expectancy of about 25 years. under ideal conditions, they should live this long, and can live well beyond this. i have known goldfish live for 40+ years, with few problems. it all depends on the fish, and quality/hardiness.
these days, goldfish tend to be mass farmed in asia, often inbreeding, with parents being kept in hugely cramped, dirty conditions, just being forced to breed. doubtless in these conditions, the quality of stock has fallen dramaticaly in recent years. this leads to weakened, deformed fish, that will not surviv prolonged periods in bad conditions. the way it ormly goes is, a person gets a bowl/small tank, puts the fish in, the water quickly ges toxic, and the fish dies. they buy more fish, same happens. people keep adding fish until eveually they get one that is hardy enough to survive the onslaught for longer periods, sometimes many years.
id say in this instance, your fish are just incredibly hardly fish, and you were very lucky in finding such fish first time. however, this doesnt mean the fish will be happy. with no filter, and in small tanks like the one you have,the ammonia that builds up in the water will burn their gills and scales, causing them discomfort, and the will often fin th ater lacking in the vital oxygen they need.
one more problem with smaller tanks, is this. you may have heard of the "fish only grow to the size of the tank" myth? well, its a bit of a myth, but in some ways true. only 2 species of fish have ever ben discovered that dwarf to the size of the tank - golfish, and clown loaches. and in no ways is it good for the fish! at the age of your fishes, yours should be full grown, around 10-12" long! such dwarfing is not caused by the size of the tank itself, but by pollution levels in the water. the more pollution, the slower the goldfish grows. the problem for them, is that their internal organs dont stop growing as much. this means dwarfed goldfish have extremely cramped internal organs, which leads to prolonged pain, lack of resistance to illness, and bouyancy problems. these all can lead to huge ammounts of suffering for the goldfish, and leave them open to health issues. goldfish are also very good at hiding their problems. in the wild, if an animal looks like its hurt or suffering, it makes for easy prey, so fish, along with many other animals, have evolved to hide their symptoms, and go along as normal, even if they are suffering. certainly with fish, even if you cant see the problems, they could very well be there. and usually, by the time you do see them, its far too late to save the fish.

now, as to where you will get cheap aquariums the correct size. the best places would be local classified adds i your local paper. people selling aquariums off cheaply. the internet is also a fantastic source of cheap equipment. ebay, gumtree, and freecycle are all places where you can pick up cheap/free aquariums. even this forum has an aquarium classified section. it worth keeping your eyes open, your fish will thank you in the long run!

ps: dont worry about it! your doing the right thing in trying to make life better for your fish, and posting on here/doing research into it shows you care. these problems are ones that happen all the time. for us, its a constant fight against misinformation spread by shops. i think even the most seasoned expert cant usually claim to have never fallen into these same pitfalls. i myself kept a goldfish in a tiny unfiltered tank for many years as a kid. just like you, he lived for a long time, before i gave him to my grandma, who put him in a huge tank. now hes full size, and healthy, and he will actually be about the same age as your goldfish. we live, we learn, dont blame yourself 

hope this helps
Fishy


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## alanasomething

I tried to post a link to a tank on gumtree but I'm guessing you're not allowed to share links, so it was just to find out if a tank that is 3ft

Dimensions From The Side -
Top Is 12 Inch
Bottom Is 14 And A Half Inch

From The Front -
36 Inch (3 Foot)

would this be big enough? It is £80 and it would be all i can afford at the very very most!


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## Fishyfins

by my reckoning, that tank would be around about 80L, without decor. it would certainly be a vast improvement, and would probably last him quite adequatly until you can afford to upgrade again.
ive never used gumtree, so im honestly not sure how it works. oes the tank come with all the equipment and decor you need? otherwise, you would need to budget for that as well.


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## alanasomething

No it doesn't come with any decor but I have my decor I have just now. I've never bought anything from gumtree either so I'm not sure how it works. I'll keep looking! My boyfriend had 2 turtles and had a massive tank for them that I could have bought from him before he sold it! Wish I knew!


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## alanasomething

My mum just phoned a few fish shops and they all said the tank is big enough for the fish and why would I waste money on buying a 100L one when they don't need that. My mum is arguiying with me saying that they know best and they wouldn't own pet shops if they didn't know.


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## Fishyfins

alanasomething said:


> My mum just phoned a few fish shops and they all said the tank is big enough for the fish and why would I waste money on buying a 100L one when they don't need that. My mum is arguiying with me saying that they know best and they wouldn't own pet shops if they didn't know.


as i said, shops are a buisness. pet shops, especially with fish, run like this...

1: sell customer fish, with poor advice, and bad equipment
2: fish gets sick
3: customer goes back to shop, shop sells expensive medicine
4: medicine doesnt work, as thats not the problem, and fish dies
5: customer gets more fish
6: fish get sick
7: customer goes back to shop, buys expensive medicine....

this continues much the same till either the customer gives up, or they get a hardy fish that actually survives. also, people that actually know about fish properly, are in extremely short supply, so pet shops often employ people with no knowledge, then train them up, so a lot of pet shop employees just believe what they are told by their employers, not knowing they are wrong.

All About Aquarium Fish: Tank Size for Goldfish

Fishkeeping - Keeping Goldfish - The Right Way - Coldwater Articles - Articles

What do I need for goldfish? | Features | Practical Fishkeeping

Goldfish: A Guide for Proper Care and Living Environment

Goldfish Aquarium

Gold fish and tank sizes - Practical Fishkeeping Forum

these are a selection of websites ive found by browsing for just a few mins today. i beg you to read as much of them as you can. they all state fairly decent minimum tank sizes for goldfish (some say it in gallons. 20G is equal to about 90L). the last link is a thread on another forum, discussing the exact same topic.

at the end of the day, think of it like this. i get nothing for helping you here today. pet shops can, and do profit from giving out false information on goldfish, because the general public in the UK doesnt know any different. for people like me, its a constant battle to try and get people to keep goldfish properly, and healthily.


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## alanasomething

I know, I trust people who genuinely help people with fish than people who financially gain from it, but my mum sees it as a waste of money.

I hope I can get through to her, would I be able to print those links and take them to the pet shop and show them? I don't think it's fair that they know nothing about fish. I can't believe I've had my fish this long and assumed we were taking good care of him, but for a pet shop manager to know all this and not tell people or take care of them, it's horrible.

I also get told "it's just a fish" and it makes me really sad  I wish fish were more expensive then people would take better care of them! 

Thank you for all your help, I will try my best to get a bigger tank, I hope he is happier for the moment in his bigger tank since it will be a nice change for him. 

He is about 3 inches long at the moment (probably in agony with being stunted ), will he be ok until I have enough for a bigger tank? 

If he is in pain right now, would I be better getting him put down ?


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