# Friendly dogs



## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Within the course of a 1 hour walk this morning with my 3 dogs we met the following breeds of dog: Irish Terrier x, Golden Retriever x, 2 Border collies, 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks, 1 Springador, 1 Sprocker and a 4 month old Labradoodle. All dogs off lead and able to greet each other respectfully. Must say how glad I am that I have done my research and chosen breeds of dogs that are able to meet other dogs of a variety of sizes, shapes and breeds in a friendly manner. Also nice to meet other calm dog owners who do not turn their daily walks into a battle ground.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Ah yes - because it is always about the breed you choose. Not bad experiences or attacks or too many rude dogs bounding up that cause issues - breed. And you are quite right - those of us with dogs with issues shouldn't go out in public lest we upset the "friendly dogs".


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

It isn't all down to doing research and choosing the correct breed of dog as you well know . Kilo was fine with dogs and able to greet respectfully offlead until he was attacked. This has meant that yes, my daily walks have become somewhat more difficult. Of course, I am pleased that I have done my research and know what it is that I need to do to help him; it is just a shame that some people haven't done their research and don't give a stuff about other people as long as their dogs are friendly . This can really have a profound impact on both my dogs and I, but as long as the other dogs and owner are happy that's all that matters.

Next time I shall do my research, disregard it and not give a flying feck who or what my dogs bother. I met a lady this morning who's dog bothered Rudi and I whilst she finished a phone conversation. She was lovely and calm and certainly didn't turn her daily walk into a battle ground whilst I waited until we were alone and had a quiet, frustrated cry . Maybe I should take a leaf out of her book .


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Honestly did you post this just to wind people up and be goady? Or is it because people failed to agree with you and blame the akita owner on your previous thread? It comes across as very petty.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> Also nice to meet other calm dog owners who do not turn their daily walks into a battle ground.


Or who don't have their daily walks turned into a battle ground by those who fail to have sufficient control over their own "friendly" dogs.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I could have prevented issues by doing more research and being calm?

Good to know - I'll tell the vet to cancel all his painkillers then, I'll just be calmer...and I'll research breeds to stop 'friendly' dogs attacking him while he's on lead.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

L/C said:


> Ah yes - because it is always about the breed you choose. Not bad experiences or attacks or too many rude dogs bounding up that cause issues - breed. And you are quite right - those of us with dogs with issues shouldn't go out in public lest we upset the "friendly dogs".


Well I do believe that dogs should be socialised (preferably off lead to allow normal interaction) as soon as they are old enough to have had their jabs, whatever their breed. I also believe that some breeds are inherently less tolerant of other dogs especially if same sex. But I also believe that certain owners fears are relayed to their dogs and they make issues where none should really exist.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Within the course of a 1 hour walk this morning with my 3 dogs we met the following breeds of dog: Irish Terrier x, Golden Retriever x, 2 Border collies, 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks, 1 Springador, 1 Sprocker and a 4 month old Labradoodle. All dogs off lead and able to greet each other respectfully. Must say how glad I am that I have done my research and chosen breeds of dogs that are able to meet other dogs of a variety of sizes, shapes and breeds in a friendly manner. *Also nice to meet other calm dog owners who do not turn their daily walks into a battle ground. *


Of course it must have been nice for you, well done,  but personally I love the daily mission to get out the front door and off for a walk without my dog having a meltdown, it really raises the blood pressure and I find that good for the soul.

If we have no challenges to face I come home soooo disappointed so I try to create them myself by being all intentionally het up and stressy. :incazzato:


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

do you really think the only thing that affects a dogs behaviour is their breed? if so then I don't think you have done all that much research at all :nonod:

for what it is worth I have a dog and people friendly dog - no worries there but she was not socialised at all as a puppy (up until 8 months) and could be very rude and in other dogs faces - I have had to work very hard and stopping this happening, keeping her calm when a strange dog approaches, avoiding heavy dog areas, so sometimes you might find me getting stressed at an approaching dog because I know how it will end up - I know she will get over excited I know the other dog will probably not tolerate it I know a negative experience may occur, I am lucky that I knew people with good dogs for her to meet and play with now after about 2 years she is calm around strange dogs, but it took a lot of work and socialising her with known dogs, I really don't think it is fair to tarnish all dogs with issues with the same brush - after all there could be a number of reasons


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

My dog was very reactive at first, very stressed & anxious around other dogs initially when she came to live with me. She can still be a bully when meeting other dogs & is a bit OTT which I have to manage .....

Wish I had done my research and chosen a breed of dogs that was able to meet other dogs of a variety of sizes, shapes and breeds in a friendly manner ..... silly me for taking on a dog with issues, I should have left her in the rescue centre!


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

L/C said:


> Ah yes - because it is always about the breed you choose. Not bad experiences or attacks or too many rude dogs bounding up that cause issues - breed. And you are quite right - those of us with dogs with issues shouldn't go out in public lest we upset the "friendly dogs".


Of course you need to go out in public to give the dogs sufficient exercise but aggressive dogs need to not be able to cause damage to non aggressive dogs. 
Surely normal canine interaction and body language is to give warning growls and warning body language so that owners are able to intervene and avoid escalation if necessary, not launching an attack without warning. If your dog doesn't give warning then it needs to be controlled better.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> But I also believe that certain owners fears are relayed to their dogs and they make issues where none should really exist.


What an offensive heartless post.

Did my research friendly happy go lucky dogs etc etc

Did i make this up? 









Nope but i've dealt with the fear that every over friendly dog causes when they charge over with more enthusiam than communication. Despite this horrible experience my dog onlead will tremble and tuck her tail she has been known to pee on it in fear. Offlead she would try to avoid only to be chased her terrified and her pursuer " only playing"


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Well I do believe that dogs should be socialised (preferably off lead to allow normal interaction) as soon as they are old enough to have had their jabs, whatever their breed. I also believe that some breeds are inherently less tolerant of other dogs especially if same sex. But I also believe that certain owners fears are relayed to their dogs and they make issues where none should really exist.


And those of us who have rescues? Or dogs who have been attacked? And plenty of owner's idea of off lead socialisation actually just encourages bullying, dogs who are unable to read "go away" cues and dogs who ignore their owners because other dogs are too exciting.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

So if one of your dogs had a bad experience and got bitten/scared by another dog and became reactive, it would then become the 'wrong' breed?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Of course you need to go out in public to give the dogs sufficient exercise but aggressive dogs need to not be able to cause damage to non aggressive dogs.
> Surely normal canine interaction and body language is to give warning growls and warning body language so that owners are able to intervene and avoid escalation if necessary, not launching an attack without warning. If your dog doesn't give warning then it needs to be controlled better.


And "non aggressive" dogs need to not be able to cause distress to reactive dogs.

You know sometimes when I am disheartened yet a - fecking - gain after a walk where I have watched so much hard work go down the pan I wish with all my heart that the owner of the "non aggressive" dog who wouldn't recall (or wasn't recalled as they were friendly) would have a dog who had been badly attacked, just for a few days, to know exactly what it was like. If you could stay calm despite seeing the dog / dogs that have attacked yours on a regular basis, or whilst others ran up, or whilst your dog had a total panic attack then well done you. The rest of us are human.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Coming across 10 dogs in a space of an hour sounds like my idea of hell. Call me an anti social old cow, but I go out walking to relax and enjoy the quiet, not to bump into someone every 5 minutes.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Of course you need to go out in public to give the dogs sufficient exercise but aggressive dogs need to not be able to cause damage to non aggressive dogs.
> Surely normal canine interaction and body language is to give warning growls and warning body language so that owners are able to intervene and avoid escalation if necessary, not launching an attack without warning. If your dog doesn't give warning then it needs to be controlled better.


And if your dog is so friendly that it can't be recalled or read "leave me alone " body language then it needs to be controlled better i.e. kept on a lead. Oh and pinning down without punctures and harm can be considered normal canine body language.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

labradrk said:


> Coming across 10 dogs in a space of an hour sounds like my idea of hell. Call me an anti social old cow, but I go out walking to relax and enjoy the quiet, not to bump into someone every 5 minutes.


Me too! Am so glad that we rarely meet anyone on our walks


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> My dog was very reactive at first, very stressed & anxious around other dogs initially when she came to live with me. She can still be a bully when meeting other dogs & is a bit OTT which I have to manage .....
> 
> Wish I had done my research and chosen a breed of dogs that was able to meet other dogs of a variety of sizes, shapes and breeds in a friendly manner ..... silly me for taking on a dog with issues, I should have left her in the rescue centre!


TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
safe environment to bring their dogs to.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Me too! Am so glad that we rarely meet anyone on our walks


Me three!!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
> safe environment to bring their dogs to.


LOL, so I'm a 'rescue hero' then?! Not quite sure what you are implying ... something not very complimentary presumably!

Did I say that anyone had to make allowances for my dog? Did I say that I did not have control over her? Did I say I let her run over to every dog?

No, I said I have to 'manage' her behaviour as most people who have dogs with issues do .... it's usually the people with the so called 'friendly' dogs that are the issue .... have you not read the posts on here


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Of course you need to go out in public to give the dogs sufficient exercise but aggressive dogs need to not be able to cause damage to non aggressive dogs.
> Surely normal canine interaction and body language is to give warning growls and warning body language so that owners are able to intervene and avoid escalation if necessary, not launching an attack without warning.* If your dog doesn't give warning then it needs to be controlled better.*


My dog's controlled fine, he's on lead and muzzled...that doesn't stop dogs whose owners who haven't trained a decent recall coming over and freaking him out.

Funnily enough every dog he's been attacked by had an owner saying that their dog is usually so friendly...even when they've left a nice scar on his ear. A warning's not much good if the dog it's aimed at is on lead and muzzled and the other dog's owner is still the length of a park away shouting ineffectually.

But, yeah, none of that matters as much as breed.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
> safe environment to bring their dogs to.


We don't expect everyone else to suffer - we expect you to be able to control your dog. If you can't recall your dogs and stop them approaching other dogs and people then you should have them on a lead. Public spaces are for everyone and not just for those who don't mind being approached by strange dogs.

I keep my dog on a lead and carry a muzzle should I need it. I spent a long time getting him used to other dogs and comfortable with them and then this happened:





As you can imagine he now has a meltdown whenever a dog runs up behind him if he hasn't noticed it. And dogs that do that aren't friendly - they are rude and in actual fact poorly socialised imo because they don't actually have any idea about canine etiquette.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Of course you need to go out in public to give the dogs sufficient exercise but aggressive dogs need to not be able to cause damage to non aggressive dogs.
> Surely normal canine interaction and body language is to give warning growls and warning body language so that owners are able to intervene and avoid escalation if necessary, not launching an attack without warning. If your dog doesn't give warning then it needs to be controlled better.


And non aggressive dogs need to be under just as much control as aggressive ones. If they were then a hell of a lot of incidents would be avoided completely. I have had very, very few problems with aggressive dogs but god knows how many with friendly dogs.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

> This is evident in the Grands we see today and together with careful and considered breeding has given us a friendly, outgoing, happy hound with a wonderful temperament and disposition who is as at home in the field as he is by the hearth


Perfect description of the dog I had from a puppy D. Same parents and I have another dog who was rehomed to me at 18 months.Not socialised she is frightened of cows, horses, sheep etc etc. She obviously didn't read the website. After lots of hard work she now treat new dogs with suspicion and approaches cautiously. Its a big improvement from barking at everything that makes a noise. 
I think that breed does play a part in behaviour but only if the dog is lucky enough not to get attacked or frightened. If the dog is socialised but even then some dog behaviour is a mystery. My very well socialised dog is still scared of motorbikes/helmets and wheelie bins.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
> safe environment to bring their dogs to.


I really don't understand the point you are trying to make. Should all dogs that are not "friendly" be PTS? should people with non "friendly" dogs never take them out in public in the event they offend someone with a "friendly" dog that "just wants to say hello"?

Not every dog is interested in "saying hello" or indeed "being friendly" towards other dogs. Likewise, not every owner is fussed about having their dog greet every dog they come across.

If your "friendly" dogs were viciously attacked by another dog, do you genuinely think that they would still want to "say hello" to every other dog? and that it wouldn't change both your dogs AND your own outlook?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I have loaded the odds in my favour by
a) getting a Golden Retriever who are generally known to be friendly and tolerant, and 
B) by meeting her parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles and going to a breeder who, amongst other things, is breeding for temperament.

However hard YOU try, the world seems to revolve in the other direction for some people.

So far Isla has met friendly dogs, but it can only take one bad incidence that will mentally scar a dog for life whatever breed it is. My last GR, a breed known for its friendliness and tolerance, was driven mad by a local dog who took every opportunity to have a go at Jodi and all that careful socialisation went out the window and I had a nervous aggressive dog on my hands who was kept on the lead most of her life.
It doesn't matter what the breed of dog is. If it's poorly raised and allowed to behave aggressively, then it will. I am highly aware there are two labs living nearby that are very inclined to attack other dogs. So far I have managed not to meet up with them, but I will not walk past where they live just in case they are loose.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

L/C said:


> We don't expect everyone else to suffer - we expect you to be able to control your dog. If you can't recall your dogs and stop them approaching other dogs and people then you should have them on a lead. Public spaces are for everyone and not just for those who don't mind being approached by strange dogs.
> 
> I keep my dog on a lead and carry a muzzle should I need it. I spent a long time getting him used to other dogs and comfortable with them and then this happened:
> 
> ...


Urgh, that is just horrible. I remember when you first posted about this. Did you ever find the owner in the end?


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

labradrk said:


> Urgh, that is just horrible. I remember when you first posted about this. Did you ever find the owner in the end?


No she vanished off the face of the earth - I think she must have been visiting the area. I know the dog wardens and most of the keepers for Epping Forest through my business and none of them have ever come across her either. £720 in vets bills by the time all the treatment was done.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> My dog's controlled fine, he's on lead and muzzled...that doesn't stop dogs whose owners who haven't trained a decent recall coming over and freaking him out.
> 
> Funnily enough every dog he's been attacked by had an owner saying that their dog is usually so friendly...even when they've left a nice scar on his ear. A warning's not much good if the dog it's aimed at is on lead and muzzled and the other dog's owner is still the length of a park away shouting ineffectually.
> 
> But, yeah, none of that matters as much as breed.


Obviously breed is just one factor as I have already stated. However I do think that the current trend for acquiring large strong breeds that were bred to work and burn off energy and then sticking them on the end of a Flexi lead and plodding them around at human walking pace for a couple of miles (if lucky) is not only cruel but IMO ill judged and with the pent up energy turning to aggression an accident waiting to happen. My dogs are able to exercise to copy what they were originally bred for: lots of off lead running, up and down gradients, swimming etc. However if you select breeds that are unsuited to your environment just because of appearance then you are doing that animal a disservice. I admire owners of dogs such as Ridgebacks that run with them or sled dog owners who work them etc but more often than not the problems arise because the breed are not suited to their environments to the point of cruelty IMO.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

If someone is making no overtures towards wanting to meet you and your dogs or is even turning away or actively engaging their dog / dogs in play or training then leave them alone. If they are passing you yet have their dog on a lead and say a cheery "Morning!" or even have a quick pleasant chat that does not signal that they are fine with their dog meeting yours either.

I just want to live and let live. Seems to be way too much to ask.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
> safe environment to bring their dogs to.


Believe me the 'heroes'  get a bit sick seeing rude dogs and smug faces running about when trying their hardest to rehabilitate a dog with issues, something no one wishes for .

Some times we just end up with them, invariably you dont know what a rescue is going to be like, like us with our old boy and Cleo with hers, often times we have perfectly calm and well behaved dogs traumatised by other peoples incompetence, like dogless and MV, or like our current one a private rehome, she came under socialised through other peoples ignorance, she appeared a perfectly happy little thing, just what we wanted, a take anywhere dog, but as it turned out a different environment and a bit of owner denial, created a very different dog.

I dont think most 'heroes' ask for special treatment or for other people to suffer because of their dogs, all we ask for is some common garden decency and consideration, something perhaps lacking in certain people lives


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't understand a lot of the replies. Of course choosing certain breeds gives a better chance of getting a dog friendly dog. There are loads of breeds I would not consider getting for a variety of reasons . Every breed is different which is why researcher is so important. It does not mean every dog in the breed will be the same or not need training or not be changed by a bad experience but it does give you a kick start in the right direction.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

Every point you make has no relevance to the breed of the dog, so I don't have any idea what point you are trying to make

Dog with issues and uncontrolled = Moronic owner
'Friendly' dog allowed to barge up to all and sundry = moronic owner
Under exercised dog for breed = moronic owner


I agree with you all these problems have a common theme, but it sure as hell isn't the breed of the dog!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

It's not even just aggressive dogs who need a little consideration. My infirm collie was bowled over and trampled multiple times by rude dogs who "just wanted to play" according to their owners. Of course he came up snapping and snarling (never bit, just made a hell of a lot of noise) and got labelled aggressive for it by these owners. He was more than happy to ignore other dogs or greet polite ones. Should he have been under better control?

I've seen guide dogs rushed by out of control dogs wanting to say hello while they're working. Hardly fair on either the guide dog or the blind person to have this happen. Should the guide dog be under better control?

What about the dog recovering from surgery who is out for a gentle stroll on leash? The elderly dog with arthritis who enjoys a slow potter around the park? The nervous dog who just wants to be left alone?


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Of course you need to go out in public to give the dogs sufficient exercise but aggressive dogs need to not be able to cause damage to non aggressive dogs.
> Surely normal canine interaction and body language is to give warning growls and warning body language so that owners are able to intervene and avoid escalation if necessary, not launching an attack without warning. If your dog doesn't give warning then it needs to be controlled better.


My puppy does not cause damage to anyone (I have him under control). Yet plenty of non-aggressive dogs cause damage to him. His body language (cowering, squealing, trying to run away) clearly says he has had enough, yet I rarely see their owners "intervening" to retrieve their overly friendly dog. I fear that one day he will learn that his only option IS to be aggressive - thus becoming one of these terrible aggressive dogs that you speak of. Personally I get very tired of all the people who seem to think my dog is a plaything for their dog and think I'm antisocial if I don't let him off lead to be chased by their bouncy, friendly non-recallable dog. Yes it's fun for their dog to chase him as he runs very fast and makes exciting noises but it isn't fun for him (or me).

Oh and by the way he isn't a "dangerous" breed, he's a spaniel cross. I've done my very best to socialise him but it isn't helped when for every good encounter he has there are three "bad" ones where he has been frightened by a big friendly dog barrelling accross the park at him.:incazzato::incazzato:.

Like others on here I am trying SO hard to overcome his problems and turn him into the kind of calm well balanced dog you want to see on your walks, but attitudes like the one that you have (perhaps unintentionally) put across in your posts really don't help.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you or over-reacting, but this is a but of a sore subject for me and many others on here.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

wannabe dogowner said:


> Every point you make has no relevance to the breed of the dog, so I don't have any idea what point you are trying to make
> 
> Dog with issues and uncontrolled = Moronic owner
> 'Friendly' dog allowed to barge up to all and sundry = moronic owner
> ...


The point was that if you choose a breed with a high exercise requirement that is also known to be not very tolerant of other dogs (eg akita, malamute) then unless you find a way of exercising that dog adequately and bred appropriately(not plodding around at a human walking pace for a few miles) then IMO you are causing a problem for other owners because your dog will be frustrated and excitable.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I don't understand a lot of the replies. Of course choosing certain breeds gives a better chance of getting a dog friendly dog. There are loads of breeds I would not consider getting for a variety of reasons . Every breed is different which is why researcher is so important. It does not mean every dog in the breed will be the same or not need training or not be changed by a bad experience but it does give you a kick start in the right direction.


Because the OP's dogs ran up and harassed an on lead Akita, who didn't take it very well and even though all that happened was a bit of a handbags at dawn situation thinks it's a breed issue rather than that dogs shouldn't be allowed to just run up to dogs because they're friendly.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> The point was that if you choose a breed with a high exercise requirement that is also known to be not very tolerant of other dogs (eg akita, malamute) then unless you find a way of exercising that dog adequately and bred appropriately(not plodding around at a human walking pace for a few miles) then IMO you are causing a problem for other owners because your dog will be frustrated and excitable.


You have no idea what exercise a dog you meet while out is getting at any other point of the day, or why it's on a lead - flexi or otherwise.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> The point was that if you choose a breed with a high exercise requirement that is also known to be not very tolerant of other dogs (eg akita, malamute) then unless you find a way of exercising that dog adequately and bred appropriately(not plodding around at a human walking pace for a few miles) then IMO you are causing a problem for other owners because your dog will be frustrated and excitable.


Not really. It is unfair on the dog to be frustrated and unfulfilled but, as long as the dog is kept under control, it shouldn't cause any problem for other owners should it? It's all an issue of control in terms of impacting upon other people.

Kilo is excitable around sheep or cats and would love to chase. It doesn't impact upon the sheep or cats as he is kept under control. He is scared and can be panicky and noisy around other dogs. It doesn't impact upon other dogs or their owners as I keep him under control and avoid him getting close enough for him to become stressed. The only time they are affected is when they approach despite my very best efforts at preventing them from doing so. And I can promise you that Kilo is affected far worse than they are.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tabulahrasa said:


> Because the OP's dogs ran up and harassed an on lead Akita, who didn't take it very well and even though all that happened was a bit of a handbags at dawn situation thinks it's a breed issue rather than that dogs shouldn't be allowed to just run up to dogs because they're friendly.


Really?!! Lol, I just love people who think like that!!

Roxy had a small terrier run over to her barking & snapping a while a go. She just wanted to play with her ball & actually ignored it. In the end she got annoyed with it & snapped at it, more of a 'go way' than anything aggressive. Tbh, I should have made the dog go away ...

Of course, it's owners who then eventually turned up & saw this, told me that GSD's are 'known for being aggressive' 

Maybe I should be 'known for my aggression' then stupid people wouldn't let their dogs run over to mine!


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> Because the OP's dogs ran up and harassed an on lead Akita, who didn't take it very well and even though all that happened was a bit of a handbags at dawn situation thinks it's a breed issue rather than that dogs shouldn't be allowed to just run up to dogs because they're friendly.


and don't forget ops friendly dogs came away without a mark on them but the akita had it's nose/muzzle bitten!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> The point was that if you choose a breed with a high exercise requirement that is also known to be not very tolerant of other dogs (eg akita, malamute) then unless you find a way of exercising that dog adequately and bred appropriately(not plodding around at a human walking pace for a few miles) then IMO you are causing a problem for other owners because your dog will be frustrated and excitable.


 How does that cause a problem for other owners if the dog is under control? Other peoples inadequately exercised or socialised but under control dogs do not impact me or my dog in any way, we simply pass them by without any fuss. The out of control ones are another matter entirely regardless of whether they're calm or excitable, aggressive or friendly.

My own dog can be excitable when meeting other dogs, especially if he's on leash, regardless of how much exercise and stimulation he gets. He's under control so the only people it impacts are those who don't have sufficient control over their dogs to stop them running up and potentially being bounced at. And myself as I'm the one who has to try to keep him calm when the other dog is bouncing around inviting him to play.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

redroses2106 said:


> and don't forget ops friendly dogs came away without a mark on them but the akita had it's nose/muzzle bitten!


Just read the post - unbelievable! 

Roxy was atacked a few years ago by a Lancashire Heer (small dog but quite hardy as it was bred to drive cattle). We walked along a public footpath by the river & this dog flew off a boat & went for Roxy's throat. It was awful, it was all happening so quickly that I couldn't get the dog off of her. Luckily she pinned it down by it's leg & I then shoved it away.

A lady came off the boat screaming at me, & said something along the lines of that Roxy was the bigger dog so should have known better :angry:

Roxy is a long haired GSD & yet after checking her she had a couple of puncture wounds around her neck area. Yet, I heard afterwards the woman was telling everyone that he dog was only wanting to play - it wasn't. She was soon moved on from the mooring anyway as it seemed that other people had experienced problems with her 'friendly' dog


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> You have no idea what exercise a dog you meet while out is getting at any other point of the day, or why it's on a lead - flexi or otherwise.


I personally know of people with Northern breeds of dogs that have NEVER been allowed off lead, but who also do not replace this with any other form of exercise or have access to a fully enclose safe area to let the dog run.
Now if you choose to get such a dog and join a sled dog group or do another form of dog sport or another form of exercise then that is great, but many do not and that is why rescues are full of these frustrated dogs.
There are also members on here with spaniels that were bred to flush prey from undergrowth that have stated quite proudly on here that their dogs are never allowed off lead because of their own fears and insecurities. 
Obviously a dog with a naturally high prey drive (sight hounds like Dogless) should not be allowed to follow every drive but exercise should be given to in some way satisfy these natural urges whether that is running, retrieving, swimming, pulling etc.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Just read the post - unbelievable!
> 
> Roxy was atacked a few years ago by a Lancashire Heer (small dog but quite hardy as it was bred to drive cattle). We walked along a public footpath by the river & this dog flew off a boat & went for Roxy's throat. It was awful, it was all happening so quickly that I couldn't get the dog off of her. Luckily she pinned it down by it's leg & I then shoved it away.
> 
> ...


The dog that attacked Kilo is "Fine with other dogs" (female owner) / "A bit iffy with some dogs" (male owner) and the female owner came up with quite a few reasons that placed the blame for the incident on my shoulders .


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Within the course of a 1 hour walk this morning with my 3 dogs we met the following breeds of dog: Irish Terrier x, Golden Retriever x, 2 Border collies, 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks, 1 Springador, 1 Sprocker and a 4 month old Labradoodle. All dogs off lead and able to greet each other respectfully. Must say how glad I am that I have done my research and chosen breeds of dogs that are able to meet other dogs of a variety of sizes, shapes and breeds in a friendly manner. Also nice to meet other calm dog owners who do not turn their daily walks into a battle ground.


Breeds of dogs that are able to meet others in a friendly manner?
Really? 
:laugh:
I have a border collie, she loves other dogs and is very friendly.
My neighbour also has a border collie, and he's a right vicious little ****! 
He tried to attack my dog when she was just 10 weeks old going absolutely crazy snarling and barking and pulling on his lead the other side of the road mad to get to her and I'm sure would have killed her if he'd been able to reach. 
As a child, we also had a golden retriever for a very short period of time. 
He was pretty psychotic with so many problems...
You never know judging just by the breed.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> I personally know of people with Northern breeds of dogs that have NEVER been allowed off lead, but who also do not replace this with any other form of exercise or have access to a fully enclose safe area to let the dog run.
> Now if you choose to get such a dog and join a sled dog group or do another form of dog sport or another form of exercise then that is great, but many do not and that is why rescues are full of these frustrated dogs.
> There are also members on here with spaniels that were bred to flush prey from undergrowth that have stated quite proudly on here that their dogs are never allowed off lead because of their own fears and insecurities.
> Obviously a dog with a naturally high prey drive (sight hounds like Dogless) should not be allowed to follow every drive but exercise should be given to in some way satisfy these natural urges whether that is running, retrieving, swimming, pulling etc.


But whatever you think about the amount of exercise other dogs get still does not excuse that you allowed your dogs to approach another dog that you knew nothing about!

Both my dogs get alot of exercise; they run, retrieve, swim, I do scent work with them, Roxy also does tracking, etc yet she still does not like strange dogs running over to her

I am not going to apologise to idiots who think it is ok for their dogs to run over, get in her face then get upset if she snaps - their fault entirely.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> I personally know of people with Northern breeds of dogs that have NEVER been allowed off lead, but who also do not replace this with any other form of exercise or have access to a fully enclose safe area to let the dog run.
> Now if you choose to get such a dog and join a sled dog group or do another form of dog sport or another form of exercise then that is great, but many do not and that is why rescues are full of these frustrated dogs.
> There are also members on here with spaniels that were bred to flush prey from undergrowth that have stated quite proudly on here that their dogs are never allowed off lead because of their own fears and insecurities.
> Obviously a dog with a naturally high prey drive (sight hounds like Dogless) should not be allowed to follow every drive but exercise should be given to in some way satisfy these natural urges whether that is running, retrieving, swimming, pulling etc.


Don't worry about my dogs, I understand what they need and do my best to provide it. Thank you for educating me though .

Obviously dogs with a naturally high drive to socialise with others should not be allowed to follow every drive but measures should be taken to satisfy these urges - retrieving, play dates, swimming, being kept on a lead if necessary etc.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The dog that attacked Rupert had "never done that before" and was apparently friendly. I later found out he'd actually killed another dog and was supposed to be leashed and muzzled in public! And the girl walking the dog told his owner that my dog was the aggressor when in fact hers ran across a field to attack my on leash dog.

Funny how some people always want to turn things around so that neither they nor their dog are the ones at fault isn't it?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> How does that cause a problem for other owners if the dog is under control? /QUOTE]
> 
> It causes a problem if the person is not strong enough to control his/her dog or if the equipment he is using is not up to the job. Then they fail to be in control.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Sarah1983 said:
> 
> 
> > How does that cause a problem for other owners if the dog is under control? /QUOTE]
> ...


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Don't worry about my dogs, I understand what they need and do my best to provide it. Thank you for educating me though .
> 
> Obviously dogs with a naturally high drive to socialise with others should not be allowed to follow every drive but measures should be taken to satisfy these urges - retrieving, play dates, swimming, being kept on a lead if necessary etc.


Just responding to your post about the sheep/cat interest. Certainly wouldn't even attempt to educate such an expert as you obviously are.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

My dog isn't physically capable of doing what he was bred for...even if I had cattle and a butcher's cart...for the same reason he's reactive to other dogs. He's also not capable of doing agility, which is what I bought him for.

He is well enough to walk 4 or 5 miles a day onlead, spend about half an hour a day training and the rest of the day playing more sedately in the house and garden and sleeping or cuddling up to one of us and take him to the middle of nowhere for a shorter off lead walk twice a week - my choice is either to do that with him and work on the issues he has with dogs or to put down a one year old dog because other owners don't see why their dog should be under control when they're just being friendly.


Funnily enough My decision does not depend on whether someone else's dog gets to play or not, but on the quality of life of my dog.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> The dog that attacked Rupert had "never done that before" and was apparently friendly. I later found out he'd actually killed another dog and was supposed to be leashed and muzzled in public! And the girl walking the dog told his owner that my dog was the aggressor when in fact hers ran across a field to attack my on leash dog.
> 
> Funny how *some people always want to turn things around so that neither they nor their dog are the ones at fault isn't it?*


Because it takes courage to reflect and admit fault.



cbrookman said:


> Sarah1983 said:
> 
> 
> > How does that cause a problem for other owners if the dog is under control? /QUOTE]
> ...


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> cbrookman said:
> 
> 
> > As I said, how does it cause a problem for other owners if the dog is under control?
> ...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> As I said, the problem arises if the frustrated dog is not under control.


& other people let their dogs go over to 'say hello'


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
> safe environment to bring their dogs to.


TBH I get a bit sick of the "I_ have a special breed_" heros, "I_ have an oversociable dog_" heros who expect everyone else to suffer because they have chosen a breed which they clearly are incapable of controlling or training.

The breed you selected is your choice but it is not an excuse we all have to make allowances for.

Blaming dogs, the breed and others is however a common excuse used by those who cannot face or accept their own failings......................


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> As I said, the problem arises if the frustrated dog is not under control.


So as long as the dog is under control there is no problem? What exactly do you consider under control? If my dog is leashed, muzzled and by my side and several loose dogs rush up to him, surround him and while I'm dealing with two of them he slams a third one to the ground and breaks its ribs which dog is out of control?


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Or who don't have their daily walks turned into a battle ground by those who fail to have sufficient control over their own "friendly" dogs.


I have a new found understanding of what this means, since Maggie had a bad experience with a dog a few months ago she is wary of rude dogs. Everywhere we go there are "friendly" dogs, who have horrendous dog communication skills. If they (or their owners) just noticed and respected when Maggie was asking for space, there wouldn't be a problem, but instead their owners think it's cute if Maggie runs to me for cover when a dog is leaping all over her even though she's asked them not to with a shake, or a tail tuck etc. And that's if they noticed it at all! Most of the time they just think the dogs are both playing, and are confused why I walk in the other direction quickly


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> I personally know of people with Northern breeds of dogs that have NEVER been allowed off lead, but who also do not replace this with any other form of exercise or have access to a fully enclose safe area to let the dog run.
> Now if you choose to get such a dog and join a sled dog group or do another form of dog sport or another form of exercise then that is great, but many do not and that is why rescues are full of these frustrated dogs.
> There are also members on here with spaniels that were bred to flush prey from undergrowth that have stated quite proudly on here that their dogs are never allowed off lead because of their own fears and insecurities.
> Obviously a dog with a naturally high prey drive (sight hounds like Dogless) should not be allowed to follow every drive but exercise should be given to in some way satisfy these natural urges whether that is running, retrieving, swimming, pulling etc.


I have a working breed that isn't allowed off lead. So am I one of these owners? Do you even know how much exercise my dog is getting? No you don't.

Do you know WHY my working breed is not allowed off lead? No you don't.

My dog is also a rescue. Does that make me think I'm a "Hero"? No, but he now has a chance at a happy fulfilled life being a dog instead of what he WAS going through.

I dare say that there are plenty of other owners on here with leashed working dogs that have a genuine reason for doing so, if you took a moment to try and understand why dogs sometimes remain leashed, you might actually be surprised, and perhaps even a little better educated.

But hey; in the meantime, You keep making those sweeping generalisations, you might even get lucky with one of them one day and be _almost_ correct, although I doubt that very much.

Oh - and by your reckoning, all "non-friendly" dogs need to be PTS? Lets just hope that your dogs stay "friendly" forever then, or you'll be rushing them straight off to the vets won't you?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> I have a new found understanding of what this means, since Maggie had a bad experience with a dog a few months ago she is wary of rude dogs. Everywhere we go there are "friendly" dogs, who have horrendous dog communication skills. If they (or their owners) just noticed and respected when Maggie was asking for space, there wouldn't be a problem, but instead their owners think it's cute if Maggie runs to me for cover when a dog is leaping all over her even though she's asked them not to with a shake, or a tail tuck etc. And that's if they noticed it at all! Most of the time they just think the dogs are both playing, and are confused why I walk in the other direction quickly


I honestly think a lot of people don't realise just what a problem it is until they've experienced it for themselves. Sorry Maggie has had a bad experience and is having issues because of it.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Just responding to your post about the sheep/cat interest. Certainly wouldn't even attempt to educate such an expert as you obviously are.


No, I am not an expert - which is what you are trying to say quite clearly  BUT I do understand my dogs. I said that they *do not cause a problem as they are under control* in response to your point about excitable dogs causing problems for others. They do not, if managed correctly as I pointed out. Being interested does not mean that they are out of control.

I'd be intrigued to hear exactly what you think I do with my dogs as it certainly seems like you think I just plod about with them. And while you are at it, you may as well spit out that you think any issues Kilo has are my fault. Just be honest rather than mucking about - that includes being honest with yourself about the behaviour of your own dogs.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> So as long as the dog is under control there is no problem? What exactly do you consider under control? If my dog is leashed, muzzled and by my side and several loose dogs rush up to him, surround him and while I'm dealing with two of them he slams a third one to the ground and breaks its ribs which dog is out of control?


Obviously your dog would have been under control because it was leashed and muzzled. However an aggressive dog is not under full control unless it is muzzled because it is the biting bit at the front that could be dangerous :rolleyes5:


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Dogless said:


> No, I am not an expert - which is what you are trying to say quite clearly  BUT I do understand my dogs. I said that they *do not cause a problem as they are under control* in response to your point about excitable dogs causing problems for others. They do not, if managed correctly as I pointed out. Being interested does not mean that they are out of control.
> 
> I'd be intrigued to hear exactly what you think I do with my dogs as it certainly seems like you think I just plod about with them. And while you are at it, you may as well spit out that you think any issues Kilo has are my fault. Just be honest rather than mucking about - that includes being honest with yourself about the behaviour of your own dogs.


Now come on don't take everything I say SOOOO personally. I have seen all your lovely photos showing your dogs walking up mountains, running etc. Well done , as you say you understand your dogs' needs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Obviously your dog would have been under control because it was leashed and muzzled. However an aggressive dog is not under full control unless it is muzzled because it is the biting bit at the front that could be dangerous :rolleyes5:


Well the police I spoke to regarding our incident with the Lancashire Heeler would disagree with you. I didn't deviate from the path (Roxy was leashed) & the other dog (in their opinion) was out of control in a public area.

If your dogs didn't approach unknown dogs then they wouldn't be at risk ... do you think it's acceptable for children to run over to unknown dogs?

Most sensible parents I know would never allow this yet so many dog owners think it's ok for their dogs to bound over to others .... odd really


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Obviously your dog would have been under control because it was leashed and muzzled. However an aggressive dog is not under full control unless it is muzzled because it is the biting bit at the front that could be dangerous :rolleyes5:


But a muzzle does not stop the dog causing serious harm, only from biting. Rupert could very easily have killed the dog whose ribs he broke in the scenario I mentioned (which actually happened, we were surrounded by 4 off leash dogs in the street) despite being muzzled and leashed at the time.

And even if it did make a dog safe, it is in no way fair for a dog to be put in that situation anyway. Not the approaching dog and certainly not the aggressive dog.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

It is lovely when people take the time to research breed traits and find a dog that will suit their lifestyle and that they can meet the dogs needs
It is lovely when friendly dogs meet other like minded friendly dogs to play with and have a romp with permission of their owners and under their owners control.
When Zipper was a youngster it was a real joy of mine to see him playing appropriately with other dogs - as he matured he lost interest and now prefers not to be bothered by other dogs and it is still a real joy watching him run free and play with his ball not being bothered with other dogs.
It is not lovely when an out of control 'he's just being friendly' dog charges over to an onlead dog or dog that is enjoying a game with it's owner or even just a gentle sniff with no manners and bounces, barges or gets into their face.
The 'over friendly' dog is just as much a problem as any other dog with behavioural issues or lack of training.

Missy is the most laid back dog I know - anyone or anything can do what they wish with her - but for the first time since we got her out on a walk she snapped and warned off a 'over friendly' jack russell who would not recall, kept coming back for more 'play' until the owner physically came and got him, Missy on the other hand was walking by my side doing her best to ignore him.

May be the other day when the over friendly vizla wouldn't leave my lot alone despite clear and appropriate warnings from Zipper I should of kept walking, after all the dog wasn't my responsibility and it's owner was out of sight, and seen just how far across the country park we got with him in tow.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> I have a working breed that isn't allowed off lead. So am I one of these owners? Do you even know how much exercise my dog is getting? No you don't.
> 
> Do you know WHY my working breed is not allowed off lead? No you don't.
> 
> ...


I don't know you or what you do with your dog but I do personally know of dogs that are not exercised other than at a human plod pace. Don't get a breed of dog whose exercise requirements can't easily be met - and that does
n't mean you personally!


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Obviously your dog would have been under control because it was leashed and muzzled. However an aggressive dog is not under full control unless it is muzzled because it is the biting bit at the front that could be dangerous :rolleyes5:


out of interest though what in your opinion is an aggressive dog? 
I think from your posts you have trouble understanding the difference between a dog telling another dog to back off and a dog being plain aggressive, do you think all dogs who have ever air snapped or growled should be muzzled? have you muzzled your dogs since it is highly likely one of them has bit another dog, does that make them aggressive in your opinion?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Now come on don't take everything I say SOOOO personally. I have seen all your lovely photos showing your dogs walking up mountains, running etc. Well done , as you say you understand your dogs' needs.


It's hard not to when your username is mentioned or posts quoted . I am left genuinely puzzled by all this - are you saying that yours _need_ to meet all other dogs? And that all dogs who do not welcome this are not having their needs met and / or need to be kept away from all other dogs so that yours remain unharmed?


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> I don't know you or what you do with your dog but I do personally know of dogs that are not exercised other than at a human plod pace. Don't get a breed of dog whose exercise requirements can't easily be met - and that does
> n't mean you personally!


But ultimately it doesn't matter whether a dog walking towards you has had a five minute stroll round the block or been walked until it can't stay upright that morning, whether it's on the lead because it's dog aggressive or because it's recovering from surgery.

Whether your dog is just rude and overfriendly or in fact the freaking Gandhi of dogs - it's still your responsibility to keep your dog under control and away from other dogs without the owner saying it's ok.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Obviously your dog would have been under control because it was leashed and muzzled. However an aggressive dog is not under full control unless it is muzzled because it is the biting bit at the front that could be dangerous :rolleyes5:


Oh dear labelling dogs.

Aggression is a BEHAVIOUR and ALL animals are equipped with this behaviour har wired in, including humans.

it is all about DEGREE.

When you shout, swear, make rude gesturses, slam doors, slam phones down, these are all acts of aggression.

Quick, get out the electric chairs, we all need to be exterminated. 

Lots of things COULD be dangerous, few things actually ARE per se.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

tabulahrasa said:


> But ultimately it doesn't matter whether a dog walking towards you has had a five minute stroll round the block or been walked until it can't stay upright that morning, whether it's on the lead because it's dog aggressive or because it's recovering from surgery.
> 
> Whether your dog is just rude and overfriendly *or in fact the freaking Gandhi of dogs* - it's still your responsibility to keep your dog under control and away from other dogs without the owner saying it's ok.


I love this!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

L/C said:


> As you can imagine he now has a meltdown whenever a dog runs up behind him if he hasn't noticed it. And dogs that do that aren't friendly - *they are rude and in actual fact poorly socialised imo* because they don't actually have any idea about canine etiquette.


This. Their owners, (who apparently did not bother to learn anything about dog communication before getting a dog), see their dog running up and not growling/snarling/attacking, and so think "wow, what a friendly, well socialised dog I have", when in reality, they have dogs who does not seem to recognise (or is too hyper to respect) very obvious signs from Maggie that she doesn't like them doing what they are doing. For example, she got chased by a OTT dog on Saturday, who knocked her over as he charged into her to 'say hello', she had her ears back, tail between her legs, and rang straight to me and cowered... This is not subtle stuff, and yet neither dog nor owner took one bit of noticed.



Sarah1983 said:


> I honestly think a lot of people don't realise just what a problem it is until they've experienced it for themselves. Sorry Maggie has had a bad experience and is having issues because of it.


Thank you. We were lucky in the sense that it didn't turn into a full blown attack (I'm sure it would have if Maggie had done anything other than cower and try to appease the dog though), and in the sense that she's now just wary of dogs who are OTT, but doesn't show any sign of aggression (fingers crossed) to other dogs as a result. I know it could have been a lot worse, but it still, overnight, made my incredibly confident, happy go lucky pup, wary and easily scared/stressed.


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## Hachiko (Sep 15, 2013)

I have to keep Hachi on the lead because he is so friendly. If it's just me and him then that's fine he can run around. Excited, friendly dog + puppy + other dogs is not a good combination at the moment. I put in restrictions not so much for our sake, but because of my courtesy towards other dogs and there owners.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

redroses2106 said:


> out of interest though what in your opinion is an aggressive dog?
> I think from your posts you have trouble understanding the difference between a dog telling another dog to back off and a dog being plain aggressive, do you think all dogs who have ever air snapped or growled should be muzzled? have you muzzled your dogs since it is highly likely one of them has bit another dog, does that make them aggressive in your opinion?


A dog just telling another to back off would not continue pursuing the other dog once it had put it in its place, knocked it off its feet, rolled it and had it by the neck. Once my dog had retaliated and bitten the other dog's muzzle in order to get up and run away then if it was just warning him off it would have stopped then surely? As it was the akita x persisted in running after my dog and attacking him again and that is when my second dog tried to intervene and was then set upon. Most telling to back off consists of growling and circling dominant body posturing as warning and this to me is normal dog behaviour. I have read on PF that Akitas are notoriously hard to read and tend to ask questions later.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Oh dear labelling dogs.
> 
> Aggression is a BEHAVIOUR and ALL animals are equipped with this behaviour har wired in, including humans.
> 
> ...


And your point is? Am I wrong? Does the bitey end not have the potential to be dangerous and used in acts of aggression?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I am off to Tesco to grab a few bits. This thread has left me feeling so ebullient and sociable that I might just hug the first few people I meet, regardless of whether they are minding their own business or not; I really feel like I need to express myself. I hope that all those who might respond to my overtures negatively have either been exterminated or are adequately restrained and controlled by their families.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> A dog just telling another to back off would not continue pursuing the other dog once it had put it in its place, knocked it off its feet, rolled it and had it by the neck. Once my dog had retaliated and bitten the other dog's muzzle in order to get up and run away then if it was just warning him off it would have stopped then surely? As it was the akita x persisted in running after my dog and attacking him again and that is when my second dog tried to intervene and was then set upon. Most telling to back off consists of growling and circling dominant body posturing as warning and this to me is normal dog behaviour. I have read on PF that Akitas are notoriously hard to read and tend to ask questions later.


You seriously think that any dog that has been pushed that far over its threshold would be capable of flicking a switch and going back to just standing there instantaneously????
The behaviours you describe are those which are displayed at the start of a confrontation, not once it has escalated


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

wannabe dogowner said:


> You seriously think that any dog that has been pushed that far over its threshold would be capable of flicking a switch and going back to just standing there instantaneously????
> The behaviours you describe are those which are displayed at the start of a confrontation, not once it has escalated


Well why weren't those behaviours displayed at the start of the confrontation then? Maybe because the dog was overly aggressive?
At no time have I ever said my dogs CHARGE at other dogs yet people have assumed that this was the scenario. In fact my Golden Retriever more often than not lies down if dogs approach him, with his tail gently fanning the floor (yes very Freaking Ghandiesque!).


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> And your point is? Am I wrong? Does the bitey end not have the potential to be dangerous and used in acts of aggression?


Of course it does. The bitey end of ANY dog does though so perhaps we should muzzle all dogs just in case?

And no, a warning is not always a simple growl and snap and done with. I've seen plenty of bust ups between dogs where it's looked and sounded for all the world like they're killing each other. Yet when it's over there's been no damage done to either dog and they've gone back to being friends almost instantly. Canine arguments can be noisy and violent seeming but a lot of it is just show, it's noise and slobber with no actual intent to harm. If this Akita had meant business then it's highly likely your dogs would have been injured.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> I don't know you or what you do with your dog but I do personally know of dogs that are not exercised other than at a human plod pace. Don't get a breed of dog whose exercise requirements can't easily be met - and that doesn't mean you personally!


I'm not taking it personally, it's one person's opinion. Look at it like this though: Your sweeping generalisation dictates that I shouldn't have the breed though doesn't it? because he doesn't herd livestock. He's actually a failed sheepdog, and can't herd. He has a "weak eye" and concentration problems. So he needs to be put to sleep does he? As that's what your posts suggest, as no-one should rescue a dog with problems. So you condemn an innocent dog to death in heartbeat. Why exactly are you on PF if you so blatantly want so many dogs PTS? 

Why is he still on lead? Simple: My dog is friendly. TOO friendly, he gets in other dogs faces and "just wants to play", and won't recall until he's finished playing. He's on lead to train him to approach in a calm restrained manner, to prevent the exact situation you faced with the Akita.

He gets more than enough exercise on lead. a 20m lead... but a lead nonetheless. He gets more than enough training. And until he leaves other dogs alone until I grant him permission to approach, he'll stay on lead.

Why am I doing this? For HIS safety and for the safety of other's dogs too.

You need to understand that whilst _you_ think it's ok for your dog to approach another dog, that other dog may not think so, and the other owner may not either.

Lets say for arguments sake: I'm standoffish as a person because of something that's happened in the past. It's caused me to become untrusting of other people. If you approached me in person and got "up in my face", it's going to end up going one particular direction: Downhill fast, simply because I don't appreciate being approached in that manner. 
So; with that in mind, if you approached and I warned you not to approach me, does that make me aggressive? Should I be PTS? Or should my breed (human) be condemned? Or should I only do the one thing I was "bred" for?

So in your opinion then, if you're not going to "work" your dog to "exercise it" in the way that it was bred for, that writes off a significant number of breeds in existence, as they were all bred for a purpose.

Define "easily met". Just because you may not think that exercise can be easily met doesn't mean that someone else won't find it easy now does it? Are we not all different? Some of the guys I work with think I'm insane because of the amount of exercise me and my dog get in a given day.

Funnily enough, he's not destructive, obsessive compulsive or misbehaving all the time - classic behaviour in bored Border Collies - and sleeps like a log when I tell him to settle, but because he's not herding, you don't think his exercise needs are met? :laugh:

Maybe if you took on board some other's comments, you'd see a lot of your points are flawed in the big wide world.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> Breeds of dogs that are able to meet others in a friendly manner?
> Really?
> :laugh:
> I have a border collie, she loves other dogs and is very friendly.
> ...


Of course there are breeds that are more likely to be good with other dogs and breeds that are more likely to be bad. You should choose a breed that has a good chance of meeting your requirements,whatever they might be.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I am off to Tesco to grab a few bits. This thread has left me feeling so ebullient and sociable that I might just hug the first few people I meet, regardless of whether they are minding their own business or not; I really feel like I need to express myself. I hope that all those who might respond to my overtures negatively have either been exterminated or are adequately restrained and controlled by their families.


Now you are just being daft, dogless, don't you dare come near me with your over friendly gestures and hug me or I may be forced to knock you backwards and growl at you, but then I'm an over aggressive old biddy that needs exterminating.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Of course it does. The bitey end of ANY dog does though so perhaps we should muzzle all dogs just in case?
> 
> And no, a warning is not always a simple growl and snap and done with. I've seen plenty of bust ups between dogs where it's looked and sounded for all the world like they're killing each other. Yet when it's over there's been no damage done to either dog and they've gone back to being friends almost instantly. Canine arguments can be noisy and violent seeming but a lot of it is just show, it's noise and slobber with no actual intent to harm. *If this Akita had meant business then it's highly likely your dogs would have been injured*.


Now that I can agree with, but usually the sizing each other up does occur before any real aggression and this would have given both owners time to have reached their dogs and parted them.


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## Hachiko (Sep 15, 2013)

I forgot to add. Because of put in these restrictions walks can sometimes not be ideal because im dealing with the pressures of a restricted, energetic, dog obsessed puppy. However, just because things are difficult does not mean that i should just let him off the lead and be able to run up to another other dog or person. 

The place where i take Hachi is used by lots of different people. You have other dogs on lead, older dogs, muzzled dogs, grandparents with children, toddlers, even families with new born's in prams. No way would i take the risk of letting Hachi off the lead with so many distractions and potential incidents.

I always explain to people my reason for keeping Hachi on the lead when we meet other dog walkers or families. I explain to them it's not because Hachi is aggressive, or shy - far from it. I keep him on the lead for his own safety and the safety of others. Samoyed's love children and often grow really strong bonds with them. On Walks Hachi is instantly attracted to them. If he was not on the lead he would run over out of excitement and friendliness and probably knock the poor child, toddler over and god knows what the consequences might be. 

Now i am not saying that i am always going to keep Hachi on the lead when around others because im not. However in this moment in time he still needs a lot of training, which we are working on. He also is going through his adolescence which is always a tricky stage. I understand the consequences of my actions and therefore take the necessary precautions so that no trouble is caused between owners and dogs alike. Hachi is a great dog, however at this very important stage within his life i believe the restrictions ui put in force now will only result in a more balanced and socialized dog in the long run. 

Anyway, that's my position. Hope i made sense


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Now you are just being daft, dogless, don't you dare come near me with your over friendly gestures and hug me or I may be forced to knock you backwards and growl at you, but then I'm an over aggressive old biddy that needs exterminating.


Note to self, please chat to dogs about stranger danger as human and dog behaviours, responses and emotions are definitely easy to confuse and similar in so many ways.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Alice Childress said:


> I have a new found understanding of what this means, since Maggie had a bad experience with a dog a few months ago she is wary of rude dogs. *Everywhere we go there are "friendly" dogs, who have horrendous dog communication skills*. If they (or their owners) just noticed and respected when Maggie was asking for space, there wouldn't be a problem, but instead their owners think it's cute if Maggie runs to me for cover when a dog is leaping all over her even though she's asked them not to with a shake, or a tail tuck etc. And that's if they noticed it at all! Most of the time they just think the dogs are both playing, and are confused why I walk in the other direction quickly


Lots of those round here, nearly always Labradors.

I think there's some distinction between very (over) friendly dogs, and sociable dogs that have good manners. The former, I try to block them before Kite tells them to sod off; the latter I have no problem with.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Well why weren't those behaviours displayed at the start of the confrontation then? Maybe because the dog was overly aggressive?
> At no time have I ever said my dogs CHARGE at other dogs yet people have assumed that this was the scenario. In fact my Golden Retriever more often than not lies down if dogs approach him, with his tail gently fanning the floor (yes very Freaking Ghandiesque!).


No, not necessarily due to being overly agressive.
Restricted by a lead many, many dogs feel threatened and unable to display the usual body language signs, especially when confronted by not just one, but two large off lead dogs. A dog who feels vulnerable will often move straight to the more obvious levels of getting their point across..
My Goldie (the big soft, wimp) will cower and hide behind me when on lead despite being friendly off lead because she feels vulnerable. A dog with a more forceful temperament may well warn a dog off rather than give subtle signals.

That I'm afraid is a risk you take by allowing your dogs to wander up to dogs you do not know. 
If you want to take that sort of risk with your dogs, then that is up to you I suppose. But to then blame others for the consequences of your actions????
Hypocritical at best!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I now have a very friendly young golden who thinks that every dog she meets is like her and wants to play. Like Hachiko I have to keep her on a lead as she wants to go and greet every dog she meets. She does have good dog skills though. She will go down onto her belly and keep her head low, she glances away, she keeps her movements slow and soft, but then she pings up and wants to play as she hasn't yet fully appreciated that not every dog wants to play. As she matures she will gradually become less fixated on other dogs (I hope) and hopefully continue with her good dog greeting skills.
I ask people if their dog would like to play or not rather then have Isla loose charging around and frightening less confident dogs half to death. 
Until you have a socially poor dog, for whatever reason, then don't assume they are all aggressive, poorly socialised under exercised dogs of the "wrong" breed.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> I'm not taking it personally, it's one person's opinion. Look at it like this though: Your sweeping generalisation dictates that I shouldn't have the breed though doesn't it? because he doesn't herd livestock. He's actually a failed sheepdog, and can't herd. He has a "weak eye" and concentration problems. So he needs to be put to sleep does he? As that's what your posts suggest, as no-one should rescue a dog with problems. So you condemn an innocent dog to death in heartbeat. Why exactly are you on PF if you so blatantly want so many dogs PTS?
> 
> Why is he still on lead? Simple: My dog is friendly. TOO friendly, he gets in other dogs faces and "just wants to play", and won't recall until he's finished playing. He's on lead to train him to approach in a calm restrained manner, to prevent the exact situation you faced with the Akita.
> 
> ...


Now how you exercise a dog is up to you but at least it is being done in sufficient levels to satisfy your dog (as you say he is able to relax). Of course he doesn't need to herd to do this. My dogs are gun dogs but have NEVER been anywhere need a shoot. So laugh all you like, as I said the exercise needs to fulfil instinctive drives, however that is done is choice.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

...................


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Pride comes before a fall.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Siskin said:


> I now have a very friendly young golden who thinks that every dog she meets is like her and wants to play. Like Hachiko I have to keep her on a lead as she wants to go and greet every dog she meets. She does have good dog skills though. *She will go down onto her belly and keep her head low, she glances away, she keeps her movements slow and *soft, but then she pings up and wants to play as she hasn't yet fully appreciated that not every dog wants to play. As she matures she will gradually become less fixated on other dogs (I hope) and hopefully continue with her good dog greeting skills.
> I ask people if their dog would like to play or not rather then have Isla loose charging around and frightening less confident dogs half to death.
> Until you have a socially poor dog, for whatever reason, then don't assume they are all aggressive, poorly socialised under exercised dogs of the "wrong" breed.


SNAP. Sounds very similar to my dog's greeting skills. Let's hope she does become less fixated on other dogs as you seem so sure of. And I am pretty sure the very large strong dog we had the misfortune to meet was neither scared half to death or lacking in confidence.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> A dog just telling another to back off would not continue pursuing the other dog once it had put it in its place, knocked it off its feet, rolled it and had it by the neck. Once my dog had retaliated and bitten the other dog's muzzle in order to get up and run away then if it was just warning him off it would have stopped then surely? As it was the akita x persisted in running after my dog and attacking him again and that is when my second dog tried to intervene and was then set upon. Most telling to back off consists of growling and circling dominant body posturing as warning and this to me is normal dog behaviour. I have read on PF that Akitas are notoriously hard to read and tend to ask questions later.


But you allowed your second dog to get involved in the fight which was failure on your part as an owner IMO.

I think your smug and self-congratulatory posts sound like a flimsy excuse for you to take your dogs wherever you like, let them off the lead to approach other dogs at will and, when by good luck nothing bad happens, you big yourself up because you "Chose" the right breed.

It doesn't matter what breed you have, if you allow your dogs to run up to leashed dogs, don't be surprised when things turn nasty.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> Pride comes before a fall.


And there but for the grace of god go I springs to mind too. Any one of us could end up with a dog who reacts badly to other dogs getting in their face. Several people on here have dogs who have become reactive due to being attacked or frightened one too many times.

Nobody ever saw my large, strong dog as being frightened either. Yet I can assure you he was scared to death despite the fact that he went on the offensive rather than running away. It seems to be quite a common misconception when it comes to larger dogs, they're not frightened, just nasty. An that simply isn't true.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Now how you exercise a dog is up to you but at least it is being done in sufficient levels to satisfy your dog (as you say he is able to relax). Of course he doesn't need to herd to do this. My dogs are gun dogs but have NEVER been anywhere need a shoot. So laugh all you like, as I said the exercise needs to fulfil instinctive drives, however that is done is choice.


 But you shouldn't have that breed if you're not going to fulfil their instinct to be "gun dogs" and retrieve ALL DAY.

That's how your previous posts read. If that wasn't your intention, then maybe you should reword accordingly.

Remember; my dog has problems and is a rescue, so as you made apparent earlier; needs to be PTS. This is a pet lovers forum, and you're suggesting that an awful lot of these pets should be PTS. And you wonder why people take these things personally?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sweety said:


> But you allowed your second dog to get involved in the fight which was failure on your part as an owner IMO.
> 
> I think your *smug and self-congratulatory posts *sound like a flimsy excuse for you to take your dogs wherever you like, let them off the lead to approach other dogs at will and, when by good luck nothing bad happens, you big yourself up because you "Chose" the right breed.
> 
> It doesn't matter what breed you have, if you allow your dogs to run up to leashed dogs, don't be surprised when things turn nasty.


Indeed, in fact you felt the need to use personal insults in two posts! Well done you.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> *But you shouldn't have that breed if you're not going to fulfil their instinct to be "gun dogs" and retrieve ALL DAY. *That's how your previous posts read. If that wasn't your intention, then maybe you should reword accordingly.
> 
> Remember; my dog has problems and is a rescue, so as you made apparent earlier; needs to be PTS. This is a pet lovers forum, and you're suggesting that an awful lot of these pets should be PTS. And you wonder why people take these things personally?


If you reread what you THINK you have read I said my dogs retrieve (tennis balls) and do this up and down steep gradients and from water. This is easier to replicate in the UK than pulling heavy sledges (malamute) or sledging over long distances (huskies) and so I feel it is easier to satisfy certain breeds exercise requirements than others. Funny how I see so many border collie owners throwing balls for their dogs, but of course they don't really need to because all dogs do just as well trailing along on a flexi lead.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Indeed, in fact you felt the need to use personal insults in two posts! Well done you.


No, you're wrong. I made a mess of the first post, so began again.

I apologise if I've confused you.

I don't know why that happened. Maybe I just chose the wrong breed of dog?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I havent read the whole thread, I can pretty much guess what has been posted but in my mind, it's really, really simple.

If I was out walking and came across 2 other people engaged in a deep conversation, or maybe even engaged in something more intimate like kissing, I, as a stranger, wouldnt just barge in and interrupt them and proceed to talk about the weather. If I spotted a couple of lads having a kick about, I wouldnt just join in without being invited. I think we would all agree that if I did any of those 2 things without being expressly invited, then I would be classed as extremely rude and would probably receive a frosty reception at best, a punch in the mouth at worst.

So, my question is why is it any different for dogs? Why, when I am walking with my dogs, enjoying engaging with them and not bothering anybody else, is it seen as ok and friendly by other owners to allow their dogs to interrupt and bother us? And before anybody says it, I know canines and humans are different species but we are both social animals and operate very similar social etiquette.

If everybody bothered to train their dog (or kept adequate control over it if, for whatever reason the training didnt go to plan) and just kept themselves to themselves unless invited to do otherwise, then dog walking would be a much happier past time.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sweety said:


> No, you're wrong. I made a mess of the first post, so began again.
> 
> I apologise if I've confused you.
> 
> I don't know why that happened. Maybe I just chose the wrong breed of dog?


Quite probably, judging by your aggressive edge


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> If you reread what you THINK you have read I said my dogs retrieve (tennis balls) and do this up and down steep gradients and from water. This is easier to replicate in the UK than pulling heavy sledges (malamute) or sledging over long distances (huskies) and so I feel it is easier to satisfy certain breeds exercise requirements than others. Funny how I see so many border collie owners throwing balls for their dogs, but of course they don't really need to because all dogs do just as well trailing along on a flexi lead.


I must've missed that post (despite going back through the whole thread and searching "tennis" and "retrieve", and not seeing one comment of yours pertaining to the fact). Can you quote it please, so I can read it?

I don't train my BC on a flexi. Never have; never will. But then according to your logic throwing a ball for a border collie isn't right is it? Because they were originally bred to herd, (and actually; my dog is from working lines - so was bred specifically for this task) and that's not herding, that's retrieving.  By that logic; by playing fetch with my dog, I'm not meeting his needs? 

The point I'm making is that your logic, albeit your belief and has some grounded points; is still flawed. Flyball and Frisbee which are extremely popular amongst BC owners are not traits originally bred into border collies - They're trained. So all these owners are not meeting the base instinct of this breed! The further into history you go, the more blurred these lines become. Do you see my point?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> If you reread what you THINK you have read I said my dogs retrieve (tennis balls) and do this up and down steep gradients and from water. This is easier to replicate in the UK than pulling heavy sledges (malamute) or sledging over long distances (huskies) and so I feel it is easier to satisfy certain breeds exercise requirements than others. Funny how I see so many border collie owners throwing balls for their dogs, but of course they don't really need to because all dogs do just as well trailing along on a flexi lead.


Again, what is your point and how does this connect to dogs being friendly towards other dogs? The reality is that unless you know someone personally or you are watching someone 24 hours a day, you have no idea of their exercise habits (or indeed lack of them). You can only assume.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Obviously breed is just one factor as I have already stated. However I do think that the current trend for acquiring large strong breeds that were bred to work and burn off energy and then sticking them on the end of a Flexi lead and plodding them around at human walking pace for a couple of miles (if lucky) is not only cruel but IMO ill judged and with the pent up energy turning to aggression an accident waiting to happen. My dogs are able to exercise to copy what they were originally bred for: lots of off lead running, up and down gradients, swimming etc. However if you select breeds that are unsuited to your environment just because of appearance then you are doing that animal a disservice. I admire owners of dogs such as Ridgebacks that run with them or sled dog owners who work them etc but more often than not the problems arise because the breed are not suited to their environments to the point of cruelty IMO.


Here's the post for you. As I said lots of off lead running and swimming which just happens to be retrieving tennis balls, sorry I didn't know you wanted the finer details. Also a herding dog uses its chase prey drive as part of the herding process, so replacing the sheep with a ball and you are giving the dog the exercise appropriate to its drive. OK?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

labradrk said:


> Again, what is your point and how does this connect to dogs being friendly towards other dogs? The reality is that unless you know someone personally or you are watching someone 24 hours a day, you have no idea of their exercise habits (or indeed lack of them). *You can only assume*.


And we all know the old saying about that :laugh:.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Again, what is your point and how does this connect to dogs being friendly towards other dogs? The reality is that unless you know someone personally or you are watching someone 24 hours a day, you have no idea of their exercise habits (or indeed lack of them). You can only assume.


Did I not say that I KNOW people PERSONALLY who exercise their dogs only ever and only on a lead.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> I must've missed that post (despite going back through the whole thread and searching "tennis" and "retrieve", and not seeing one comment of yours pertaining to the fact). Can you quote it please, so I can read it?
> 
> I don't train my BC on a flexi. Never have; never will. But then according to your logic throwing a ball for a border collie isn't right is it? Because they were originally bred to herd, (and actually; my dog is from working lines - so was bred specifically for this task) and that's not herding, that's retrieving.  By that logic; by playing fetch with my dog, I'm not meeting his needs?
> 
> The point I'm making is that your logic, albeit your belief and has some grounded points; is still flawed. Flyball and Frisbee which are extremely popular amongst BC owners are not traits originally bred into border collies - They're trained. So all these owners are not meeting the base instinct of this breed! The further into history you go, the more blurred these lines become. Do you see my point?


Co-Habitating with a Herding Dog? : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
Please read where it says about herding instinct and predatory drive. Of course the 'prey' may be a Frisbee or ball - ingenious eh?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Co-Habitating with a Herding Dog? : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
> Please read where it says about herding instinct and predatory drive. Of course the 'prey' may be a Frisbee or ball - ingenious eh?


Frenchwood - Do you see my point?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Did I not say that I KNOW people PERSONALLY who exercise their dogs only ever and only on a lead.


I too know people who always keep their dogs on lead. Sometimes, people do that for a good reason. If their dog is aggressive or reactive to others, that's the responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

It doesn't mean that everybody apart from you walks their dogs on lead. As others have said, you really have no idea how the majority exercise their dogs.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Did I not say that I KNOW people PERSONALLY who exercise their dogs only ever and only on a lead.


Ok, so what is your point? That everyone should only ever own a Golden Retriever, Labrador or Spaniel? Because that us the vibe I'm getting from your posts.


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## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Did I not say that I KNOW people PERSONALLY who exercise their dogs only ever and only on a lead.


Errr, so what?
I know people who do all sorts of stupid things with their dogs. Doesn't mean I tarnish every stranger with the same brush.

Whilst not the ideal most would strive for, many people make a perfectly acceptable life for their dogs on lead only. On the one hand you claim (rightly) that aggressive dogs should be kept properly controlled, then complain they are kept on lead.

Which is it?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sweety said:


> I too know people who always keep their dogs on lead. Sometimes, people do that for a good reason. If their dog is aggressive or reactive to others, that's the responsible thing to do, in my opinion.
> 
> It doesn't mean that everybody apart from you walks their dogs on lead. As others have said, you really have no idea how the majority exercise their dogs.


Absolutely not judging by the lovely dogs we met today and at no point have I ever claimed to know how everybody else walks their dogs. However certain breed clubs RECOMMEND keeping their breeds leashed and indeed many PF members do too. However unless you can cover 20 miles a day at trotting pace OR involve the dog in other activities (which others may do) I cannot see how you can be exercising such a dog adequately.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Did I not say that I KNOW people PERSONALLY who exercise their dogs only ever and only on a lead.


But it wasn't one of those people that your dogs went up to...so it's not relevant at all.

If you'd started a thread about those people and wasn't it a shame that people buy dogs and don't exercise them, you'd be getting agreed with, but because some people you know have under-exercised dogs it doesn't follow that a complete stranger also does.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

wannabe dogowner said:


> Errr, so what?
> I know people who do all sorts of stupid things with their dogs. Doesn't mean I tarnish every stranger with the same brush.
> 
> Whilst not the ideal most would strive for, many people make a perfectly acceptable life for their dogs on lead only. On the one hand you claim (rightly) that aggressive dogs should be kept properly controlled, then complain they are kept on lead.
> ...


No I am saying not to get a breed that its club recommends has to stay on a lead UNLESS you can find other ways to fulfil its exercise requirements.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sweety said:


> I too know people who always keep their dogs on lead. Sometimes, people do that for a good reason. If their dog is aggressive or reactive to others, that's the responsible thing to do, in my opinion.
> 
> It doesn't mean that everybody apart from you walks their dogs on lead. As others have said, you really have no idea how the majority exercise their dogs.


Mine are always on lead around dogs that we do not know.many owners assume that they have a life on lead because of this. I get fed up of people telling me it's sad etc etc - none of their beeswax and they have no idea what exercise mine are given at all.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> Absolutely not judging by the lovely dogs we met today and at no point have I ever claimed to know how everybody else walks their dogs. However certain breed clubs RECOMMEND keeping their breeds leashed and indeed many PF members do too. However unless you can cover 20 miles a day at trotting pace OR involve the dog in other activities (which others may do) I cannot see how you can be exercising such a dog adequately.


Our akitas are walked several miles a day at walking pace. Some days they go further than other. they do not need 20 miles a day!


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> But it wasn't one of those people that your dogs went up to...so it's not relevant at all.
> 
> If you'd started a thread about those people and wasn't it a shame that people buy dogs and don't exercise them, you'd be getting agreed with, but because some people you know have under-exercised dogs it doesn't follow that a complete stranger also does.


It was a breed that has become fashionable as a status dog and which also is recommended (by its own welfare breed rescue which I put a link from on the other day) it is kept leashed in presence of unfamiliar dogs. So unless you are very dedicated and can fulfill this breeds needs by exercising it in another way then IMO you are storing up trouble. Got It Yet?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> Our akitas are walked several miles a day at walking pace. Some days they go further than other. they do not need 20 miles a day!


I'm sure my dogs cover at least 15 times more ground than me when we are out walking. Also they never walk they run! You would never know how much exercise your dog really needs if it is never given the chance to free run somewhere.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Mine are always on lead around dogs that we do not know.many owners assume that they have a life on lead because of this. I get fed up of people telling me it's sad etc etc - none of their beeswax and they have no idea what exercise mine are given at all.


Yup, people assume the same with Spen at times. If other owners are happy for him to be let off and their dogs are fine with him then I'll let him off. But for the most part he's on leash when there are other dogs around.

And starting next month he's on leash for a good 3 and a half months due to the leash laws. I certainly will not be running or cycling 20 miles a day with him, we'll be doing longer/more walks on flexi or long line and more training and he'll be just fine with that.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Absolutely not judging by the lovely dogs we met today and at no point have I ever claimed to know how everybody else walks their dogs. However certain breed clubs RECOMMEND keeping their breeds leashed and indeed many PF members do too. However unless you can cover 20 miles a day at trotting pace OR involve the dog in other activities (which others may do) I cannot see how you can be exercising such a dog adequately.


So you are basing you knowledge of these breeds on something you have read on the internet, having exactly zero first hand experience of them? Because if you did, you would know that no dog requires 20 miles of walking a day. What kind of person do you think has time to walk their dog for 20 miles a day? Quality not quantity.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

labradrk said:


> So you are basing you knowledge of these breeds on something you have read on the internet, having exactly zero first hand experience of them? Because if you did, you would know that no dog requires 20 miles of walking a day. What kind of person do you think has time to walk their dog for 20 miles a day? Quality not quantity.


Exactly my point. Of course you would never be able to walk that distance every day. But dogs are far more capable of such things than us it is only the person the end of the leash holding them back from having a good run and/or covering much more ground. I am pretty sure my dogs cover 20 miles easily per day each with all the running into undergrowth, chasing, zoomies etc they do. Trouble is some poor dogs never get the chance and people wonder why they get frustrated.


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## Nicki85 (Oct 6, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> It was a breed that has become fashionable as a status dog and which also is recommended (by its own welfare breed rescue which I put a link from on the other day) it is kept leashed in presence of unfamiliar dogs. So unless you are very dedicated and can fulfill this breeds needs by exercising it in another way then IMO you are storing up trouble. Got It Yet?


Just to check I'm understanding this all, from your posts I understand your opinion is as follows....

If a dog is on lead and your (or anybody else's) dog runs up to it and that dog has a growl (handbags/ acts aggressively what ever you want to call it) at your dog, it's the on lead dogs fault? Or rather the owner of the on lead dogs fault for not exercising or fulfilling the dogs needs enough and therefore making it more likely to act aggressive due to pent up energy?


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> It was a breed that has become fashionable as a status dog and which also is recommended (by its own welfare breed rescue which I put a link from on the other day) it is kept leashed in presence of unfamiliar dogs. So unless you are very dedicated and can fulfill this breeds needs by exercising it in another way then IMO you are storing up trouble. Got It Yet?


But again and in big letters...as you seem not to be understanding it.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH EXERCISE A STRANGER'S DOG GETS.

You have no idea how well exercised, trained, socialized, healthy or anything else a stranger's dog is - so responsible owners keep their dogs away.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Exactly my point. Of course you would never be able to walk that distance every day. But dogs are far more capable of such things than us it is only the person the end of the leash holding them back from having a good run and/or covering much more ground.* I am pretty sure my dogs cover 20 miles easily per day each with all the running into undergrowth, chasing, zoomies etc they do.* Trouble is some poor dogs never get the chance and people wonder why they get frustrated.


I hate to say it, and to wade in, but if you're not covering similar mileage, it's probably the fact that your dogs are allowed to do as they please that they are able to cover that amount.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> I'm sure my dogs cover at least 15 times more ground than me when we are out walking. Also they never walk they run! You would never know how much exercise your dog really needs if it is never given the chance to free run somewhere.


I know for a fact the amount of exercise they get regularly has no adverse affect they are both happy, healthy and well behaved. They do also have time off lead but still choose to walk along side us mostly after an initial burst of energy. My dogs do get the Chance to run free at least once a week but the regular walk is 3 to 6 miles walk daily. This has always been fine.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Frenchwood - Do you see my point?


The point that you change the argument as it suits? That pointed out by a number of other members on here; your logic is flawed? That you refuse to see it, and that's your failing?

Yes I see *that* point VERY clearly! :laugh:


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> The point that you change the argument as it suits? That pointed out by a number of other members on here; your logic is flawed? That you refuse to see it, and that's your failing?
> 
> Yes I see *that* point VERY clearly! :laugh:


Seriously did you really NOT know that chasing a Frisbee or ball is related to prey drive? Can't believe it. Have you now read up and done your homework?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I hate to say it, and to wade in, but if you're not covering similar mileage, it's probably the fact that your dogs are allowed to do as they please that they are able to cover that amount.


What rubbish, it is related to breed traits. Retrievers are bred to cover ground.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

The phrase "talking out ones arse" springs to mind here! All in justification for not controlling their own dogs. How much pot and kettle can you get?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> What rubbish, it is related to breed traits. Retrievers are bred to cover ground.


Within the right setting and once trained. Not in the local park


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I hate to say it, and to wade in, but if you're not covering similar mileage, it's probably the fact that your dogs are allowed to do as they please that they are able to cover that amount.


Just to add, they are always within sight unless we momentarily round a blind bend.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Within the right setting and once trained.


I guess country parks are the right setting?


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Seriously did you really NOT know that chasing a Frisbee or ball is related to prey drive? Can't believe it. Have you now read up and done your homework?


I know my breed well thanks, do you know yours? Others have already mentioned what you didn't seem to know. I'm not sure you understand dogs at all by your posts & threads.

You seem to have no idea on the cause of dog aggression whatsoever, if you did; you'd never let your dogs approach any on lead dog of any size, nor would you claim that dogs need to be PTS because they have a problem.

You avoid direct questions that you know show holes in your logic, and when people are trying to help you understand you attempt to either divert the argument, or simply insult them.

Again; you wonder why people take it personally... :laugh:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> I guess country parks are the right setting?


No that's not quite what I was getting at.

What is the difference between a dog running riot and a dog 'covering ground' to any other country park user? ie cyclists, horse riders, families, dog owners etc


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Just to add, they are always within sight unless we momentarily round a blind bend.


In sight is all very well but if you do not have effective control, whether that be a stop/wait to be collected or a recall. It's not really enough to prevent issues arising.
I really like the etiquette Janet Finlay proposed in her blog some time ago. If all dog owners follwoed this or similar dog walking could be a much more pleasant experience for all.

Dog walking etiquette - Canine Confidence

Someone suggested "dog walking etiquette" should be taught in basic puppy classes - and I think this is a great idea. But what might it look like? Here's my suggestion for a simple dog walking etiquette to apply to all of us, whether DINOS, MDIFs (My Dog Is Friendly) or anything in between.

1. One dog on lead, one dog off

Don't let your dog approach. Even if both are friendly, it is an unequal meeting and not fair to the on-lead dog. There is usually a reason the dog is on a lead: respect this, give space and move on.

2. Both dogs on lead

Ask permission first and wait for the answer. Even if the owner says it is OK, be careful: being on leads adds extra tension to any meeting. If the answer is no, respect this, give space and move on quickly and quietly. See DINOS manifesto for more details.

3. Both dogs off lead

a. If close enough

Ask permission for your dog to meet the other and then apply same rules as 2.

b. If not close enough

Observe.

Are there any obvious resources (toys, balls) that could cause friction? Yes? Then avoid potential conflict and move on.

Is the owner training the dog or playing with the dog? Yes? Then leave them in peace to enjoy their time together.

Is the dog reasonably matched to yours in age, mobility, size? Yes? Then it might make a suitable play mate - move closer and apply 3a.

All of this assumes good off-lead control of your dog. If you couldn't follow this etiquette because your dog would have already been over to the other dog, then use a lead until you can. And why not use the dog training etiquette to drive your training? Here are some things you could to start work on:

Walk close - stay by your side on or off lead whatever the distractions.
Chase recall - call back your dog even if he has already decided he wants to say hi to the other (also useful when you come across livestock or wildlife).
Emergency down - stop your dog wherever he is when you see another dog coming.
Directional send away - great for teaching "full on" dogs to approach another more politely.
Play bow - teach your dog to invite rather than intrude.
- See more at: Dog walking etiquette - Canine Confidence


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

We have had two dogs of the same breed, we did the research and decided the Briard was the dog for us.

Although certain breed traits were there, they were two completely different dogs Amber hated people and wasn't that keen on making friends with other dogs, Dillon not that keen on other dogs but loves people he thinks everyone should make a fuss of him.

So however much research you do, you can't guarantee how your dog is going to behave.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Here's the post for you. As I said lots of off lead running and swimming which just happens to be retrieving tennis balls, sorry I didn't know you wanted the finer details. Also a herding dog uses its chase prey drive as part of the herding process, so replacing the sheep with a ball and you are giving the dog the exercise appropriate to its drive. OK?





cbrookman said:


> Co-Habitating with a Herding Dog? : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
> Please read where it says about herding instinct and predatory drive. Of course the 'prey' may be a Frisbee or ball - ingenious eh?





cbrookman said:


> Seriously did you really NOT know that chasing a Frisbee or ball is related to prey drive? Can't believe it. Have you now read up and done your homework?


Chasing a frisbee or ball is not satisfying a collie's instinct to HERD!
It's just not, it's good exercise and they like it but its nothing like herding. 
Herding and hunting is not the same, it's a modified sequence but it's very very different. 
Hardly any of a border collie's herding behaviour is chasing, it's mostly stalking and intimidation using 'eye' to manipulate the sheep into moving where they want them to.
A border collie that just wants to chase is no good at all.
I can play fetch with my collie for hours, but she is still partial to trying to run infront of a car, crouching down and giving it the eye.
If frisbee, flyball etc were truly appropriate to her herding drives then why would she want to try and herd a car? 
If her drive had been satisfied she wouldn't feel the need?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Dogless said:


> It isn't all down to doing research and choosing the correct breed of dog as you well know . *Kilo was fine with dogs and able to greet respectfully offlead until he was attacked*. This has meant that yes, my daily walks have become somewhat more difficult. Of course, I am pleased that I have done my research and know what it is that I need to do to help him; it is just a shame that some people haven't done their research and don't give a stuff about other people as long as their dogs are friendly . This can really have a profound impact on both my dogs and I, but as long as the other dogs and owner are happy that's all that matters.
> Same with our Grace - three dogs attacked her on the course of a single walk (one of them was a lab - a breed that everyone thinks is a big softie, but there's always one!) Ruined her for socialising with other dogs, it made her so fear aggressive.
> 
> Next time I shall do my research, disregard it and not give a flying feck who or what my dogs bother. I met a lady this morning who's dog bothered Rudi and I whilst she finished a phone conversation. She was lovely and calm and certainly didn't turn her daily walk into a battle ground whilst I waited until we were alone and had a quiet, frustrated cry . Maybe I should take a leaf out of her book .


Good idea! All of those dogs that come rushing up to Grace - I'll just ignore her reaction and let them get a pasting. I will feel much calmer.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Mine are always on lead around dogs that we do not know.many owners assume that they have a life on lead because of this. I get fed up of people telling me it's sad etc etc - none of their beeswax and they have no idea what exercise mine are given at all.


If I see someone approaching me with a dog on lead, I always put Rosie on hers, as she's not 100% reliable not to approach.

In the park where we go, there is a large wooded area, and she loves her time in their hunting for squirrels, but in that area, she has to go on her flexi as there's a busy main road alongside and if she were chasing a squirrel, she would go after it if it ran that way.

I've had my share of comments too. "Oh, let if off, that's mean" and suchlike.

I believe we're just being responsible. If preventing Rosie from getting herself squashed on the road is mean, then yes, I'm mean.


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## lottieloo (Aug 25, 2011)

I have two resuce dogs, one extremely DA due to him being 9 years old when we got him and him having no socialisation at all He sat on his owners knee all day, was the size of a house and couldnt wear a collar as his next was fatter that his head :yikes:. I started straight away as he was really timid then he had to be walked on an extender lead as he had no recall, twice the dog across the road came charging up to him and attacked him whilst in the field and no matter how much work I put in he is horrific with any dog that he doesnt know. This is nothing to do with his breed, its his previous owner (god rest her soul). and stupid dog owners that cant or wont control their over friendly dogs. Most dogs that are walked on a lead in a field are on it for a reason, and if other dog owners had a bit more consideration then maybe there would be less DA dogs in the world


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sparkle22 said:


> Chasing a frisbee or ball is not satisfying a collie's instinct to HERD!
> It's just not, it's good exercise and they like it but its nothing like herding.
> Herding and hunting is not the same, it's a modified sequence but it's very very different.
> Hardly any of a border collie's herding behaviour is chasing, it's mostly stalking and intimidation using 'eye' to manipulate the sheep into moving where they want them to.
> ...


Slightly off subject.

About 20 years ago while we were staying in Wales, we went of a drive and passed a farm, all of a sudden we were surrounded by 4 Collies trying to round us up, we were stuck there for 10 minutes before someone realized we were there. We didn't what to move in case we might hurt one off the dogs and would risk getting out as they were barking like mad. .


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> What an offensive heartless post.
> 
> Did my research friendly happy go lucky dogs etc etc
> 
> ...


OMG now that is my worst nightmare. Hope she's ok bless her, poor little girl. Today I had Tia at the park, we'd had a lovely time and she'd been running around off lead. As we headed back and she was a little way in front of me a huge GS came round a corner off lead and headed straight for her. I called her back immediately but she couldn't get to me as the dog wouldn't leave her alone. She was very frightened but managed to get closer and then ran away again and then the owner appeared. I asked him to call his dog back and he said "Sorry I was on the phone". He still did nothing and I had visions of his dog grabbing Tia and shaking her. I felt sick He had another huge dog on the lead and both of them were sniffing at Tia. I don't think they intended to hurt her but I didn't want to take the chance so I reached in between the 2 dogs and grabbed Tias harness and lifted her out. My heart was still racing when I got home.
There is a woman who walks 2 huskies in the park both on leads but they have still managed to grab an old mans shih tzu and shake it and also a westie. Both these dogs also on lead but near enough to be grabbed. Luckily both dogs survived but it's still very scary to think about. Thank goodness I have never seen her as I'd be giving them a very wide berth.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I read up to page 8 then I lost the will to live 

If my dog is on a lead, it is under control. I am strong enough to hold my dog and his equipment is not faulty.

It is irrelevant if my dog is friendly, excitable, fear aggressive, dog aggressive, a rescue, injured, post-op, over-exercised, under-exercised, blah blah blah.

Off lead dogs should not approach the on lead dog.

If a dog is off lead and cannot be downed or recalled on command it is not under control.

If the off lead dog's owner thinks it is ok for their dog to approach an on lead dog then IMO - the off lead dog's owner is a numptie. :rolleyes5:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

tabulahrasa said:


> Because the OP's dogs ran up and harassed an on lead Akita, who didn't take it very well and even though all that happened was a bit of a handbags at dawn situation thinks it's a breed issue rather than that dogs shouldn't be allowed to just run up to dogs because they're friendly.


Ah! That explains a lot!

I imagine that as many shy dogs have been ruined by over-friendly approaches as by aggressive ones. And if the OP doesn't control their dogs properly they are causing problems for others. (Whether they want to admit it or not)


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

LynnM said:


> OMG now that is my worst nightmare. Hope she's ok bless her, poor little girl.


She's doing great now, there have been many setbacks along the way and there are many local walks I avoid altogether or at certain times and many routes get changed last minute because I can see dogs up ahead that would be a poor match.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> We have had two dogs of the same breed, we did the research and decided the Briard was the dog for us.
> 
> Although certain breed traits were there, they were two completely different dogs Amber hated people and wasn't that keen on making friends with other dogs, Dillon not that keen on other dogs but loves people he thinks everyone should make a fuss of him.
> 
> So however much research you do, you can't guarantee how your dog is going to behave.


Yes, my pair are practically polar opposites too!



lottieloo said:


> Most dogs that are walked on a lead in a field are on it for a reason, and if other dog owners had a bit more consideration then maybe there would be less DA dogs in the world


Amen.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> Have I missed this, was it recent?Please tell me it was not... you know who???


In case mv doesn't see this it was Tink's attack from around 3 years ago. Sorry moonviolet for speaking for you if you do see this .


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

So, hang on... 

Let's take my 13 month old Terrier for example. What you're saying is: 

I should let him run riot through woods and cover hundreds of miles of ground, chasing, harassing and killing foxes? What about rabbits and rats? By not giving him a suitable outlet for his instinct, I am being cruel? Sorry, I don't fancy putting my dog in danger like that, that would be very irresponsible on my part. That's what he was bred for and sure, 150 years ago,that was fine... This is however, the 21st century. 


I think where your opinion is most flawed is in your understanding of dogs in general. Skip is reactive to maybe 10% of dogs he meets. Why? Because TWICE now, he has been attacked by off leash dogs whilst he has been on lead. So called 'friendly' dogs and now my dog has to be kept on leash because in those instances where he reacts, his first instinct, being a terrier,is fight.

As for suitable outlets for specific breeds, many of us on here work continously on keeping our dogs instincts in check and giving them suitable outlets. You are patronising some serious dog experts. 

If I have the decency to leash my dog so he doesn't approach others and attack, why should other owners let their 'friendly' dog approach mine... Again, it comes down to common decency. I'm protecting your dog. But in letting your dog approach, you're harming mine. 

Is that fair? 

All that training and work me and my dog have done, disappears in seconds. How on earth is that fair? 

Oh that's right! It's okay, because your dog is friendly. Who cares about mine, huh?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Dogless said:


> In case mv doesn't see this it was Tink's attack from around 3 years ago. Sorry moonviolet for speaking for you if you do see this .


Thanks..... I was worried..Poor Tinks..


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> Thanks..... I was worried..Poor Tinks..


Sorry didn't mean to worry you.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Up to about 12 months ago I had a perfectly friendly, sociable dog. He approached other dogs politely and his recall was about 99%. No, not perfect but pretty close. I used to see DA/DR dogs and feel so sorry for their owners, I used to think how stressful it must be for them.

Guess what? I'm now one of those owners. I have a very reactive dog, bordering on aggressive. It's no fun at all, let me tell you. The scariest bit about it though? There was NO single incident or anything at all that I can put my finger on that caused it. Was it me? Was it a fail in my training? Probably  I don't know to be honest, I don't know where it all went wrong but it did. As someone said earlier (sorry, I don't remember who) "there but for the grace of god go any of us" because you never know, it could happy to you OP. I would politely advise you to climb off that high horse of yours because you never know what's around the corner.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Coffee said:


> Up to about 12 months ago I had a perfectly friendly, sociable dog. He approached other dogs politely and his recall was about 99%. No, not perfect but pretty close. I used to see DA/DR dogs and feel so sorry for their owners, I used to think how stressful it must be for them.
> 
> Guess what? I'm now one of those owners. I have a very reactive dog, bordering on aggressive. It's no fun at all, let me tell you. The scariest bit about it though? There was NO single incident or anything at all that I can put my finger on that caused it. Was it me? Was it a fail in my training? Probably  I don't know to be honest, I don't know where it all went wrong but it did. As someone said earlier (sorry, I don't remember who) "there but for the grace of god go any of us" because you never know, it could happy to you OP. I would politely advise you to climb off that high horse of yours because you never know what's around the corner.


:yesnod:
Poor boy that is so sad...At least I know what triggered my boys velcro head and can prepare for a similar situation...


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Coffee said:


> Up to about 12 months ago I had a perfectly friendly, sociable dog. He approached other dogs politely and his recall was about 99%. No, not perfect but pretty close. I used to see DA/DR dogs and feel so sorry for their owners, I used to think how stressful it must be for them.
> 
> Guess what? I'm now one of those owners. I have a very reactive dog, bordering on aggressive. It's no fun at all, let me tell you. The scariest bit about it though? There was NO single incident or anything at all that I can put my finger on that caused it. Was it me? Was it a fail in my training? Probably  I don't know to be honest, I don't know where it all went wrong but it did. As someone said earlier (sorry, I don't remember who) "there but for the grace of god go any of us" because you never know, it could happy to you OP. I would politely advise you to climb off that high horse of yours because you never know what's around the corner.


Feel for you there.
My last Golden, those nice biddable dogs, was nervous aggressive to other dogs and I do know what set her off. It was something quite ordinary, but scary for her. Whilst out on a walk a friendly lurcher came over to say hello (with its owners). We let them play, but the lurchers idea of play was chasing Jodi very fast making a lot of growly noises, typical for a lurcher really. Jodi became frightened and the owners were unable to call the lurcher off once he got going and had to resort to grabbing him as he zoomed past. Jodi wasn't hurt at all, but it scared her. It just seemed to set her off, one innocent moment. Maybe it was always there hovering below the surface, I don't know, but she could never accept another dog on face value anymore. She could just about cope with another Golden, but anything else had to be 'seen off' just in case. Friendly dogs would come belting over only for Jodi to growl and bark and I would get comments about anti social dogs. 
Not fair is it.


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## Hudson87 (Aug 11, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> *The point was that if you choose a breed with a high exercise requirement that is also known to be not very tolerant of other dogs (eg akita, malamute)* then unless you find a way of exercising that dog adequately and bred appropriately(not plodding around at a human walking pace for a few miles) then IMO you are causing a problem for other owners because your dog will be frustrated and excitable.


You don't actually know anything about akita's! They are not a high energy breed that require hours of exercise if that were the case I would never have bought one as it wouldn't suit my lifestyle. Hudson has had 2 thirty min walks today and he is exactly where he usually is passed out snoozing his head off by the door as he is a very lazy dog.

Also so much for them all being not tolerant of other dogs, let me introduce you to some of my so called same sex aggressive breed friends shall i?

My friends tiny male staffie puppy, very cute. Hudson is extremely gentle with him and lets him bop him on the head and jump on his back.

Another male friend Barkley, he is a smaller dog and they love chasing each other around, he knows Barkley is too little to wrestle so again very gentle with him.


Hudson and Barkley by purplepixie87, on Flickr

Three more MALE friends, two lovely whippets and a springer he loves to run around the park with. 

Untitled by purplepixie87, on Flickr


Untitled by purplepixie87, on Flickr

Finally the one that will blow your mind Cbrookman one of his best dog pals AN INTACT MALE RIDGEBACK, HUDSON IS AN INTACT AKITA. Bet you never seen that coming, they love each other, chase each other round like clowns, wrestle and the cuddle up together and sleep! Shock, horror!


Hudson and Zazu by purplepixie87, on Flickr


Hudson and Zazu by purplepixie87, on Flickr

Despite all that he is still walked mostly on a long line or a flexi if I am somewhere I am going to bump into other people. His problem is he is too friendly and his re call is not 100% when he spots another dog and I am sure no one wants a dog that size running at them, friendly or not.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Hudson87 said:


> You don't actually know anything about akita's! They are not a high energy breed that require hours of exercise if that were the case I would never have bought one as it wouldn't suit my lifestyle. Hudson has had 2 thirty min walks today and he is exactly where he usually is passed out snoozing his head off by the door as he is a very lazy dog.
> 
> Also so much for them all being not tolerant of other dogs, let me introduce you to some of my so called same sex aggressive breed friends shall i?
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same regarding the high energy comment. Both my akitas are lazy. They like to be out but love to sleep more lol. Also cassie and Bert are both good with other dogs. Cassie is more challenging because she is a lady and like good introduction. If a dog is polite and well behaved all is fine buy she gets grumpy if dogs are rude to her. I don't blame her personally.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> My dog was very reactive at first, very stressed & anxious around other dogs initially when she came to live with me. She can still be a bully when meeting other dogs & is a bit OTT which I have to manage .....
> 
> Wish I had done my research and chosen a breed of dogs that was able to meet other dogs of a variety of sizes, shapes and breeds in a friendly manner ..... silly me for taking on a dog with issues, I should have left her in the rescue centre!


It is very odd that your GSD has all these issues whilst other GSDs I have come across have none. My cousin's GSD is a great big soft dope, just a newfie in disguise really. This just proves to me, if I needed proof, that reactivity or otherwise has sod all to do with breed.

OP what breeds do you think are inherently intolerant of other dogs? I am interested because I have not met any breeds that don't like other dogs. I have met plenty of dogs that don't like other dogs, but they are all different breeds and the same breeds that have also been friendly. Your argument has no logic.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Feel for you there.
> My last Golden, those nice biddable dogs, was nervous aggressive to other dogs and I do know what set her off. It was something quite ordinary, but scary for her. Whilst out on a walk a friendly lurcher came over to say hello (with its owners). We let them play, but* the lurchers idea of play was chasing Jodi very fast making a lot of growly noises*, typical for a lurcher really. Jodi became frightened and the owners were unable to call the lurcher off once he got going and had to resort to grabbing him as he zoomed past. Jodi wasn't hurt at all, but it scared her. It just seemed to set her off, one innocent moment. Maybe it was always there hovering below the surface, I don't know, but she could never accept another dog on face value anymore. She could just about cope with another Golden, but anything else had to be 'seen off' just in case. Friendly dogs would come belting over only for Jodi to growl and bark and I would get comments about anti social dogs.
> Not fair is it.


This is the problem - it doesn't need to be an aggressive situation - just one in which a dog becomes so scared that it learns to rect aggressively. Very, very sad.

And no - it isn't fair.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> :yesnod:
> Poor boy that is so sad...At least I know what triggered my boys velcro head and can prepare for a similar situation...





Siskin said:


> Feel for you there.
> My last Golden, those nice biddable dogs, was nervous aggressive to other dogs and I do know what set her off. It was something quite ordinary, but scary for her. Whilst out on a walk a friendly lurcher came over to say hello (with its owners). We let them play, but the lurchers idea of play was chasing Jodi very fast making a lot of growly noises, typical for a lurcher really. Jodi became frightened and the owners were unable to call the lurcher off once he got going and had to resort to grabbing him as he zoomed past. Jodi wasn't hurt at all, but it scared her. It just seemed to set her off, one innocent moment. Maybe it was always there hovering below the surface, I don't know, but she could never accept another dog on face value anymore. She could just about cope with another Golden, but anything else had to be 'seen off' just in case. Friendly dogs would come belting over only for Jodi to growl and bark and I would get comments about anti social dogs.
> Not fair is it.


Nope, it's not fair at all 

I never know with Alfie, when a strange dog is approaching (he's fine with his "friends" and dogs he's known a long time) will he love it or hate it? As we've been taken by surprise on a couple of occasions but he's amazed me and been perfectly fine with the dog  but then on other occasions acts like he wants to rip it's head off. I can't take the risk on which way it will go so I generally avoid other dogs entirely... but then I do wonder if I'm contributing myself to the problem as how can he learn to meet other dogs politely if he's not given the opportunity? 

It's a constant on-going process. From a good distance he is fine and will just watch with interest. So out come the treats and lots of "good boys" as we try and creep a little closer (but also keeping enough of a distance so they don't spot us and come over!)  I know his "safe distance" now and try and stick to that as much as I can.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> It was a breed that has become fashionable as a status dog and which also is recommended (by its own welfare breed rescue which I put a link from on the other day) it is kept leashed in presence of unfamiliar dogs. So unless you are very dedicated and can fulfill this breeds needs by exercising it in another way then IMO you are storing up trouble. Got It Yet?


Storing up trouble?

As long as some idiot with over-friendly dogs, self-confessed inadequate recall and a penchant for passing the blame for incidents to the innocent party, doesn't allow them to run up to the dog whilst it's on leash, everything should probably be OK though.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

Do you allow your dogs to go up to ALL dogs, on lead or not?
Too many dogs for my liking come over and pester me and Roxy whilst we are training out of the way from the main walking area. I understand more if there is not a lot of distance between us and them, but this has never been the case. Their owners have plenty of time for recall, I used to assume they just thought it was ok because she's offlead, I have since learned it is instead (or also?) that their dog wouldn't come back to them regardless of whether she was on a lead or not. It's not ok to allow a dog to rush up to any other dog to a distance beyond the owners control, off lead or not. Also if we are playing fetch, it's not ok for another dog to chase mine as she runs after her frisbee, it's just damn rude of both dog and owner.

Just because a dog is friendly, doesn't mean it has a right to get into every other dogs space. If an offlead dog goes up to an onlead dog and the onlead dog responds aggressively, then the fault lies with the owner of the offlead dog.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Last Summer, I was in the park with Rosie when she began digging in a molehill.

I don't like her doing that, (poor little mole), so I set off toward her to bring her away.

At that point, a woman approached with a Lurcher Bitch and she was a big 'un. The Lurcher ran to Rosie, shoved her nose into the molehill and snarled. Rosie snarled back and for an instant, the Lurcher froze, then flew at Rosie.

All Hell broke loose. It took me far longer than I would have liked to split them up, but I managed to get hold of Rosie and pick her up.

I was furious at the Owner of the Lurcher, but all she could say was "Nasty Little Jack Russell". Whilst she was arguing with me, her dog had barged off and was harassing two dogs on the other side of the Park.

When I got Rosie home, I found she had two puncture wounds in one ear and two to the back of her neck.

She's only twelve inches tall and she could have been badly hurt.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Last Summer, I was in the park with Rosie when she began digging in a molehill.
> 
> I don't like her doing that, (poor little mole), so I set off toward her to bring her away.
> 
> ...


It's amazing what dogs can be guardy over. My bitch and my ex's bitch had a fight over a rabbit hole, my bitch ended up with puncture wounds on her face as she was the smaller dog. My male pointer will also guard smells that he is sniffing and will only allow dogs he knows very well to investigate the smell too, any other dogs are told off (which can and has caused fisticuffs).


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Hudson87 said:


> You don't actually know anything about akita's! They are not a high energy breed that require hours of exercise if that were the case I would never have bought one as it wouldn't suit my lifestyle. Hudson has had 2 thirty min walks today and he is exactly where he usually is passed out snoozing his head off by the door as he is a very lazy dog.
> 
> Also so much for them all being not tolerant of other dogs, let me introduce you to some of my so called same sex aggressive breed friends shall i?
> 
> ...


Wasn't it you that had to take an akita back to the rescue centre some time back because the two of them couldn't get on together? Maybe a case of mistaken ID. By way of contrast my 3 entire males however get on fine all living together:yikes: My 3 dogs regularly meet and successfully interact with dogs of all types including the 2 entire ridgebacks they met today as mentioned in my original post. However as this is normal behaviour to us I do not feel the need to keep posting the photographic evidence on PF.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Wasn't it you that had to take an akita back to the rescue centre some time back because the two of them couldn't get on together? Maybe a case of mistaken ID. By way of contrast my 3 entire males however get on fine all living together:yikes: My 3 dogs regularly meet and successfully interact with dogs of all types including the 2 entire ridgebacks they met today as mentioned in my original post. However as this is normal behaviour to us I do not feel the need to keep patting myself on the back about it as some sort of achievement and posting the photographic evidence on PF.


You've been patting yourself on the back all day.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Wasn't it you that had to take an akita back to the rescue centre some time back because the two of them couldn't get on together? Maybe a case of mistaken ID. By way of contrast my 3 entire males however get on fine all living together:yikes: My 3 dogs regularly meet and successfully interact with dogs of all types including the 2 entire ridgebacks they met today as mentioned in my original post. However as this is normal behaviour to us I do not feel the need to keep patting myself on the back about it as some sort of achievement and posting the photographic evidence on PF.


Get over it. You very first op was doing exactly that. Patting your self on your own back. Had nothing to do with the incident the other day to any innocent reader.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> Of course it must have been nice for you, well done,  but personally I love the daily mission to get out the front door and off for a walk without my dog having a meltdown, it really raises the blood pressure and I find that good for the soul.
> 
> If we have no challenges to face I come home soooo disappointed so I try to create them myself by being all intentionally het up and stressy. :incazzato:


Hilarious, I am cackling 

OP - I genuinely am confused by your post. Dex and I regularly walk with a very big group of dogs, and the breeds include a Staffe, a Staffie x Lab, several Labs, a Cockerpoo, a Doberman, a Rottie puppy, a GSD puppy, a Flatcoat Retriever, a Lurcher, and various others.

All the dogs are fab with each other.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Hilarious, I am cackling
> 
> OP - I genuinely am confused by your post. Dex and I regularly walk with a very big group of dogs, and the breeds include a Staffe, a Staffie x Lab, several Labs, a Cockerpoo, a Doberman, a Rottie puppy, a GSD puppy, a Flatcoat Retriever, a Lurcher, and various others.
> 
> All the dogs are fab with each other.


The cackling bit doesn't surprise me. Well done for you, maybe you should post some self congratulatory pics too. since when have I mentioned you and your dog? now I am genuinely confused to. Do you also have an Akita called Hudson?


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## Hudson87 (Aug 11, 2013)

cbrookman said:


> Wasn't it you that had to take an akita back to the rescue centre some time back because the two of them couldn't get on together? Maybe a case of mistaken ID. By way of contrast my 3 entire males however get on fine all living together:yikes: My 3 dogs regularly meet and successfully interact with dogs of all types including the 2 entire ridgebacks they met today as mentioned in my original post. However as this is normal behaviour to us I do not feel the need to keep posting the photographic evidence on PF.


That is correct. She was taken into rescue at 6 months old, hadn't been socialised at all and spent a year in a kennel. That could have been any breed and there would have been issues? Hudson was not the problem in that case, it was her.

Oh I am sorry maybe that's because I am not the one suggesting your breed shouldn't be allowed anywhere near other dogs, let outside or hell even exist....

So because I own that breed it's photographic evidence? Actually there just pictures I take of my dog enjoying himself with his buddies like most other dog owners on the site. They just happen to come in handy when people who have no idea what their talking about start bashing my breed!

Again just because you think they are great at interactions doesn't mean that you should be letting run up to every dog on or off lead.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

cbrookman, I dont know if youre deliberately trying to be offensive, are just really ignorant about dogs, or what, but I would gently suggest to you that you educate yourself a bit more about dogs, dog breeds, dog behavior, appropriate dog/dog interactions etc. Brenda Aloff and Turgid Rugaas are good authors to start with. Suzanne Clothiers stuff is always good too. In fact maybe google He Just Wants to Say Hi by Suzanne Clothier. Might be worth the read.

A lot of things youve said I want to address, but I think Ill just keep it simple.
Dogs are not aggressive. Behavior is aggressive and all dogs are capable of aggressive behavior - yes even those friendly dogs. 

Just because a dog will aggress in a certain context doesnt mean the dog is an aggressive or even dangerous dog. I have a dog who will happily poke holes in another dog in certain situations, yet he is a Therapy dog, has multiple obedience and rally titles, goes everywhere, does anything you ask, perfectly able to behave safely and appropriately.
My other dog has never laid a single tooth on another dog yet she is much more troublesome as far as dog/dog relationships go, is NOT Therapy certified (and not the right temperament to ever be), and even though she has never aggressed with teeth, I have no delusions that she never would. ALL dogs are capable of aggression in all of its incarnations, from a hard stare, to a growl, to a snap, to a full-mouth bite with intent to do serious damage.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> But I also believe that certain owners fears are relayed to their dogs and they make issues where none should really exist.


LOL. If only it was as simple as all that.

Variations in aspects (each of which should be studied separately initially) such as genetic predisposition, very early developmental stage experiences (contrary to the myth that 8-12 primary socialization period paramount- alot happens before then; period when they are weaned by mother or without lays foundation for a massive amount), primary and secondary socialization experiences and trauma (negative experiences and possibility for bounce back) vary greater between breeds than within them.

*EDIT* Sorry folks typing too quickly, should read:

Generalized behavioural bounce back and social eloquency can be explained by various factors (such as genetic predisposition, early developmental experiences, socialization period experiences and bounce back from trauma ability); variations in the differing possible outcomes relating to each factor in fact varies greater WITHIN breeds than between.

Behaviour science is really quite complex.

People like simple answers though don't they? 
Classify it; "I get it!"

Little do they know with "I did my research and chose friendly breeds", they are barely touching the surface (forget scratching it!).


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> LOL. If only it was as simple as all that.
> 
> Variations in aspects (each of which should be studied separately initially) such as genetic predisposition, very early developmental stage experiences (contrary to the myth that 8-12 primary socialization period paramount- alot happens before then; period when they are weaned by mother or without lays foundation for a massive amount), primary and secondary socialization experiences and trauma (negative experiences and possibility for bounce back) vary greater between breeds than within them.
> 
> ...


Exactly as you say - the breed DOES have a massive sway on it, as all these factors 'vary greater between breeds than within them.'


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Exactly as you say - the breed DOES have a massive sway on it 'far greater between breeds than within them.'


I dont think anyone would dispute that certain breeds are more idiot proof than others. But in the end, it doesnt matter how friendly the dog is, if you allow the dog to behave inappropriately, you risk an appropriate correction from a less tolerant dog.

Personally I dont care how friendly my own dog is, Im not going to let him/her behave inappropriately full stop. The world is full of incompetent handlers, iffy dogs, and who knows what else. I cant control that. What I can control is how my own dog behaves and the situations I allow him/her to get in to.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> TBH I get a bit sick of the rescue heroes who expect everyone else to suffer because they have taken on a dog with issues. If you choose to rescue a dog with issues then that is your choice but it is not an excuse that we all have to make allowances for. IMO some rescues are badly damaged and would be better off PTS. I have been to rescue 'fun' days that didn't turn out much fun for the dogs that were attacked by damaged dogs that the rescues were trying to rehabilitate at the cost of those who felt it was a
> safe environment to bring their dogs to.


You really are a delight aren't you? :thumbdown:

The event you describe sounds awfully poorly managed. Multiple dogs let down by staff and owners. 
All though it says alot... Why would any stooge dog would be close enough to actually be "attacked"?* (I'll use that word lightly since evidently you are prone to elaborate, dramatic generalizations about breed types. Who knows you classification might be right, but it could equally have been a lunge that you deem an "attack" because of the breed type). 
* Flooding no doubt. The sort of clumsy gung ho style "training" of someone who thinks all dogs just ought to mix in no matter what and that we shouldn't "reinforce fear" 

Here's a shocker for you...

One of my dogs (an adult rehome) originally came from the very sorts you'd classify under your "well researched", "properly chosen breed" philosophy. 
A KC registered breeder. The poor mite was bred from by them when she was far too young and subjected to constant stress and bullying in household with far too many dogs in it (also all stressed out). 
There are idiots everywhere. The KC in general are nowhere near as knowledgeable as they ought to be for an organisation involved with regulation of supposed "responsible breeding". 
(Granted there are some great people involved, but a fair share of horrendous ones too).

I'm sorry OP but the stuff you are coming out with is complete woolfluff.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

cbrookman said:


> Exactly as you say - the breed DOES have a massive sway on it, as all these factors 'vary greater between breeds than within them.'


:lol:

OK you got me. Fair play!
So I was typing quickly!

Should have read for generalized behavioural bounce back and social eloquency (dependent on complex factors such as genetic predisposition, early development, socialization periods and bounce back from trauma" "the possibilities for differing aspects varies greater WITHIN breeds than between".


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2014)

OP you have a golden?

In your thorough research, what did you find out about goldens and resource guarding?

On a separate note, JME, but a lot of goldens I know are total social clods when it comes to interacting with other dogs. A friend of mine has a golden who is about as sweet as they come, but invariably other dogs cant stand him. Hes just a total oaf and doesnt get it when dogs try to tell him to back off. His owner gets her feelings hurt that so many dogs dont like her sweet boy, but she just cant see how stupid and annoying he is to other dogs. She gets doubly offended that my Bates (who can be a jerk with other dogs) gets along with more dogs than her goldie does. But Bates will read other dogs, and her boy just doesnt.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> The cackling bit doesn't surprise me. Well done for you, maybe you should post some self congratulatory pics too. since when have I mentioned you and your dog? now I am genuinely confused to. Do you also have an Akita called Hudson?


I was referring to your original post. Nothing to do with Akitas. I was referencing your moronic notion that your dogs were 'friendly' purely because you oh so wisely chose the 'right' breeds.

If your sole objective was to offend and/or alienate multiple members of PF in one thread then hey - congratulations! Mission accomplished.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

cbrookman said:


> Exactly as you say - the breed DOES have a massive sway on it, as all these factors 'vary greater between breeds than within them.'


not sure who you are quoting but Professor Daniel Mills (who may have a tiny bit more knowledge than you) has stated the polar opposite; there are more differences within a breed than between them.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> not sure who you are quoting but Professor Daniel Mills (who may have a tiny bit more knowledge than you) has stated the polar opposite; there are more differences within a breed than between them.


Thank you SB! :thumbsup:


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

OP

I hope that your friendly dogs do not approach the wrong dog one day and one of them ends up being attacked and badly injured.

Didn't that nearly happen the other day?

When you are left with a dog that is so traumatised by that experience that they have to be kept on a lead you will perhaps appreciate what everyone else is saying.

And it does seem to be everyone, almost without exception I believe. Doesn't that tell you something?

Until then, 

Good Luck 

(for your dogs)


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Wasn't it you that had to take an akita back to the rescue centre some time back because the two of them couldn't get on together? Maybe a case of mistaken ID. By way of contrast my 3 entire males however get on fine all living together:yikes: My 3 dogs regularly meet and successfully interact with dogs of all types including the 2 entire ridgebacks they met today as mentioned in my original post. However as this is normal behaviour to us I do not feel the need to keep posting the photographic evidence on PF.


Lots of people have (unfortunately) find that a new dog doesn't fit in to their household, doesn't mean it's because of the breed, there can be many factors.

If your dogs regularly meet other dogs & they all get on well then great but do you not see that you should always ask if your dogs can approach unknown dogs? For the safety of your own dogs as well as being respectful of others?

Don't you think it's odd that most people disagree with you?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> not sure who you are quoting but Professor Daniel Mills (who may have a tiny bit more knowledge than you) has stated the polar opposite; there are more differences within a breed than between them.


I was re - quoting what now turns out to be a misquote by Lemmsy. You know nothing about my qualifications or background and I am entitled to my opinions. Howewer in trying to impress people with quotations, as you usually do, please bear in mind that 'experts' and their research may be discredited, as was the case with MMR.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

OP I have a question for you ... You are out walking you dogs and you see your friendly dogs approaching someone who on sighting them, puts their dog on lead and begins to take a route away from you and your dogs. what would you do?


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> I was re - quoting what now turns out to be a misquote by Lemmsy. You know nothing about my qualifications or background and I am entitled to my opinions. Howewer in trying to impress people with quotations, as you usually do, please bear in mind that 'experts' and their research may be discredited, as was the case with MMR.


It was originally mistakenly misquoted, then corrected by Lemmsy, so how is that smokeybear trying to impress?

So are you in a place to discredit him? I doubt it very much. An opinion vs. the leading animal behavioural biologist in the UK... I know where my money lies, irrespective of what qualifications or background you have.



moonviolet said:


> OP I have a question for you ... You are out walking you dogs and you see your friendly dogs approaching someone who on sighting them, puts their dog on lead and begins to take a route away from you and your dogs. what would you do?


If previous posts are a base for the answer; then it appears the OP would like to see that dog PTS... After all, it might be rescue with "problems".


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> OP I have a question for you ... You are out walking you dogs and you see your friendly dogs approaching someone who on sighting them, puts their dog on lead and begins to take a route away from you and your dogs. what would you do?


Contrary to what people on here seem to believe, I always put my dogs on a lead if someone else is approaching with an on lead dog. Sometimes it is hard to see in the distance if on a Flexi, and sometimes the other dog walker doesn't always pause and give me time to leash up all 3 of my dogs without a rush but that's OK. I also leash my dogs up if a toddler or small child is approaching, children on bikes, pushchairs or prams, if a person is eating, if an elderly or frail person is coming or in a case I come across regularly a person using a white stick or with a guide dog. I also leash up my Golden if the person has walking poles or a walking stick as he can be afraid of them. In fact on my walk this morning we met 4 on lead dogs and 2 off lead dogs and I followed suit. However if on occasion you happen to round a blind bend in an isolated area and suddenly see someone 20 feet up ahead, I do not expect my dogs to get a mauling because that person has a dog whose lack of social skills and sheer strength mean it would be better off muzzled and/ or held on a better lead.
In fact I am not even sure if the dog was leashed/ unleashed or let loose once it saw mine, as it all happened very quickly.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> It was originally mistakenly misquoted, then corrected by Lemmsy, so how is that smokeybear trying to impress?
> 
> So are you in a place to discredit him? I doubt it very much. An opinion vs. the leading animal behavioural biologist in the UK... I know where my money lies, irrespective of what qualifications or background you have.
> 
> If previous posts are a base for the answer; then it appears the OP would like to see that dog PTS... After all, it might be rescue with "problems".


Oh please, we all know that SB regularly quotes research papers and talks to new PF members in a patronising and condescending way, as was commented upon only yesterday by someone seeking advice about their dog's behaviour issues.
In face we were all amazed some time ago when we found out that SB is a man :yikes: because we were all used to the bitchy tone of his posts
I do not need to try to discredit anyone, but I am also able to form my own opinions based on my own experiences.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Oh please, we all know that SB regularly quotes research papers and talks to new PF members in a patronising and condescending way, as was commented upon only yesterday by someone seeking advice about their dog's behaviour issues.
> In face we were all amazed some time ago when we found out that SB is a man :yikes: because we were all used to the bitchy tone of his posts
> I do not need to try to discredit anyone, but I am also able to form my own opinions based on my own experiences.


I know others that quote papers & research too. I don't see a problem with that. There is a very big difference between condescension and brevity and that's a perspective rather than a defined line. What you may find patronising, others may not, and vice versa.

So, with that in mind; we're down to personal insults and sweeping generalisations again are we? Is that your fall back option when someone question something you've said? "We were all amazed". So you held a poll did you? 

Forming a "hard coded" opinion on experience is a ridiculous concept when said experience is limited. Unless you have access to all breeds, in all situations, how can you form an opinion on dog behaviour?

When someone actually researches, and has a wider baseline of the subject that contradicts your opinion, do you not feel that perhaps they may have a bigger study base, and may actually be right? Or at least have more data available to them to be able to form a hypotheses that is then tested?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> I know others that quote papers & research too. I don't see a problem with that. There is a very big difference between condescension and brevity and that's a perspective rather than a defined line. What you may find patronising, others may not, and vice versa.
> 
> So, with that in mind; we're down to personal insults and sweeping generalisations again are we? Is that your fall back option when someone question something you've said? *"We were all amazed". So you held a poll did you? *
> Forming a "hard coded" opinion on experience is a ridiculous concept when said experience is limited. Unless you have access to all breeds, in all situations, how can you form an opinion on dog behaviour?
> ...


People did express surprise at the time - look back at the comments! 
Also my comments have been called 'moronic' and 'idiotic', to name but a few over the last day, and I have not taken the bait and retaliated but have indeed called their remarks overly personal. I think I have remained very restrained and polite in the circumstances. Me saying another person's posts sometimes have a bitchy tone is no better or worse than that.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Oh please, we all know that SB regularly quotes research papers and talks to new PF members in a patronising and condescending way, as was commented upon only yesterday by someone seeking advice about their dog's behaviour issues.
> *In face we were all amazed some time ago when we found out that SB is a man :yikes: because we were all used to the bitchy tone of his posts*I do not need to try to discredit anyone, but I am also able to form my own opinions based on my own experiences.


:lol::lol::lol: Funny, she looked like a woman when I met her ... several times!!!


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> I know others that quote papers & research too. I don't see a problem with that. There is a very big difference between condescension and brevity and that's a perspective rather than a defined line. What you may find patronising, others may not, and vice versa.
> 
> So, with that in mind; we're down to personal insults and sweeping generalisations again are we? Is that your fall back option when someone question something you've said? "We were all amazed". So you held a poll did you?
> 
> Forming a "hard coded" opinion on experience is a ridiculous concept when said experience is limited. *Unless you have access to all breeds, in all situations, how can you form an opinion on dog behaviour? *When someone actually researches, and has a wider baseline of the subject that contradicts your opinion, do you not feel that perhaps they may have a bigger study base, and may actually be right? Or at least have more data available to them to be able to form a hypotheses that is then tested?


Plenty on here seem to, and of course nobody in the world would be in that position, but does that mean nobody will ever be in a position to express an opinion?


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> People did express surprise at the time - look back at the comments!
> Also my comments have been called 'moronic' and 'idiotic', to name but a few over the last day, and I have not taken the bait and retaliated but have indeed called their remarks overly personal. I think I have remained very restrained and polite in the circumstances. Me saying another person's posts sometimes have a bitchy tone is no better or worse than that.


Of course; 2 wrongs make a right! How silly of me! 

No comment on anything else I said in my post then? ETA: Comment made



Cleo38 said:


> :lol::lol::lol: Funny, she looked like a woman when I met her ... several times!!!


Well it seems as though you were wrong then cbrookman... Any comment on how you established what you took as fact?


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Plenty on here seem to, and of course nobody in the world would be in that position, but does that mean nobody will ever be in a position to express an opinion?


Sure they can form an opinion, but when the err of that opinion is shown in professional study, most people are happy to incorporate that data.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> :lol::lol::lol: Funny, she looked like a woman when I met her ... several times!!!


Perhaps a case of mistaken ID and mixing up user names on my part. Nevertheless that doesn't detract from the unnecessarily patronising edge to the s/he-man's posts. And her being female on a forum used predominantly by other females would indeed explain the tone of her many posts and the bullying ganging up culture (the clique) that is so often witnessed and commented upon by other PF users.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> *Of course; 2 wrongs make a right! How silly of me! *
> No comment on anything else I said in my post then? ETA: Comment made
> 
> Well it seems as though you were wrong then cbrookman... Any comment on how you established what you took as fact?


More of the playground nature of the forum in evidence I see.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> Sure they can form an opinion, but when the err of that opinion is shown in professional study, most people are happy to incorporate that data.


Try telling that to the breed rescue organisations of breeds who state that same sex aggression may be a problem in a dog you adopt from them.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Perhaps a case of mistaken ID and mixing up user names on my part. Nevertheless that doesn't detract from the unnecessarily patronising edge to the s/he-man's posts. And her being female on a forum used predominantly by other females would indeed explain the tone of her many posts and the bullying ganging up culture (the clique) that is so often witnessed and commented upon by other PF users.


Surely, if you feel that's the case, then that's a moderation issue? And nothing to do with the content of the post they made?

As it happens, I don't see the relevance of any poster's gender in the context of dog behaviour as per this thread. It makes no difference to the facts.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Frenchwood said:


> Surely, if you feel that's the case, then that's a moderation issue? And nothing to do with the content of the post they made?
> 
> As it happens, I don't see the relevance a poster's gender in the context of dog behaviour. It makes no difference to the facts.


You cannot moderate to deter a clique mentality. Suffice it to say that certain member's posts are always greeted with fawning acceptance whereas others' posts barely get one or two responses, unless of course you say something to shake their feathers .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Perhaps a case of mistaken ID and mixing up user names on my part. Nevertheless that doesn't detract from the unnecessarily patronising edge to the s/he-man's posts. And her being female on a forum used predominantly by other females would indeed explain the tone of her many posts and the bullying ganging up culture (the clique) that is so often witnessed and commented upon by other PF users.


I think it depends on how you take comments though. Some people appear to be incredibly sensitive regarding other peoples opinions or comments regarding their dog (for example)

I don't think there is a bullying or ganging up culture in this section, (though occassionally in general chat) but more that alot of people disagree with your opinion.

I don't think commetns should be personal but I do find it odd how you appear to be dismissive of people who have dogs that do have some issues.

In no way has anyone suggested that others should be extra sensitive to these dogs at all - I have always acknowedged that it is my dog with the 'problems' so I should be the one who makes deviations to my route or I do not go to certain places, etc. I have been lucky in that the few people I have met have (mostly) not been so judgemental, have actually made sure they have given us enough room when passing by, have respeced the fact that Roxy does not like dogs coming over to her & have called their dogs to heel or leashed them.

Alot of people nearby have gone out of their way to help me with training; people on here, people I have met when out & even a local farmer with trainig around live stock. Am glad I have met these people as it shows that not everyone will simply think I was a fool & should have done my 'research' when selecting my dog.

I hope you do take the comments on board regarding allowing your dogs to approach unknown dogs though. We all have moments when our dogs do not recall & may approach other dogs or people, I have had many times when I have had to apologise to others but I have learnt from these experiences & made sure they do not happen again. I have also fully acknowledged 'blame' in these cirumstances & have been lucky in that people have been generous enough not to get annoyed about the situation.

What does irk people though, is someone who continuously thinks that their dogs have a right to run up to others, have had this happen often in the past yet continue to do nothing about it as their dogs are 'friendly' so everyone else should accomodate this.


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Anyway, I have wasted enough time going around in circles defending my opinion on here, so you can all agree to differ with me and good luck with your nasty highly strung problem dogs. May you have many angst ridden walks ahead of you.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Anyway, I have wasted enough time going around in circles defending my opinion on here, so you can all agree to differ with me and *good luck with your nasty highly strung problem dogs*. May you have many angst ridden walks ahead of you.


Thanks!!!! :laugh:


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> Anyway, I have wasted enough time going around in circles defending my opinion on here, so you can all agree to differ with me and good luck with your nasty highly strung problem dogs. May you have many angst ridden walks ahead of you.


And to a personal level again. Really, you should question your own need to make comments like this, as it's seems you have plenty of angst of your own.

Lets hope that one day you see that your opinion of other peoples dogs is wrong, and lets hope (for your dogs sakes) that you never bump into someone with a "nasty highly strung" dog, as it'll always be your dogs that come off worse, no matter the outcome of any resulting fight.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> May you have many angst ridden walks ahead of you.


Back at you 

And I sincerely hope that your dogs never have anything happen to them that causes them to react to dogs and never develop any health problems that mean they can't greet other dogs - because I have enough empathy not to wish anyone to learn the hard way why friendly dogs coming over isn't a good thing.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Serious question, has cbrookman always been so inflammatory? I cant recall having that opinion of them before.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Serious question, has cbrookman always been so inflammatory? I cant recall having that opinion of them before.


Me neither, but maybe bored at work .... I know I was!!


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> I was re - quoting what now turns out to be a misquote by Lemmsy. You know nothing about my qualifications or background and I am entitled to my opinions. Howewer in trying to impress people with quotations, as you usually do, please bear in mind that 'experts' and their research may be discredited, as was the case with MMR.


Just FYI, for many of us it is very easy to deduce a poster's general knowledge and qualifications simply from the content of their posts.



cbrookman said:


> Contrary to what people on here seem to believe, I always put my dogs on a lead if someone else is approaching with an on lead dog. Sometimes it is hard to see in the distance if on a Flexi, and sometimes the other dog walker doesn't always pause and give me time to leash up all 3 of my dogs without a rush but that's OK. I also leash my dogs up if a toddler or small child is approaching, children on bikes, pushchairs or prams, if a person is eating, if an elderly or frail person is coming or in a case I come across regularly a person using a white stick or with a guide dog. I also leash up my Golden if the person has walking poles or a walking stick as he can be afraid of them. In fact on my walk this morning we met 4 on lead dogs and 2 off lead dogs and I followed suit. However if on occasion you happen to round a blind bend in an isolated area and suddenly see someone 20 feet up ahead, *I do not expect my dogs to get a mauling because that person has a dog whose lack of social skills and sheer strength mean it would be better off muzzled and/ or held on a better lead.*
> In fact I am not even sure if the dog was leashed/ unleashed or let loose once it saw mine, as it all happened very quickly.


I'm curious about the bolded. In the incident you had, your dog was wholly unharmed was he not? So how do you leap from a run-of-the-mill dog snarking incident to a mauling? How do you know the dog had no social skills? How do you know it wasn't YOUR dog who's lack of social skills caused the incident?

If any dog ran up to my two, I can assure you they would have something to say about it. They would not hurt the dog, but it would look and sound pretty bad. In dog terms it is really rude to run up to any dog, leashed or unleashed without an established relationship. 
Even with an established relationship, it can still warrant a fair correction to run up to another dog who's not seeking interaction. Bates will get his muzzle chomped by my friend's bitch for exactly that sort of behavior. From a spectator POV it looks like my friend's bitch is the aggressor, but Bates is the one totally in the wrong.

Like I said previously, you and your dogs might really benefit if you read up on dog behavior and learn about appropriate dog interactions.



cbrookman said:


> Anyway, I have wasted enough time going around in circles defending my opinion on here, so you can all agree to differ with me and good luck with your nasty highly strung problem dogs. May you have many angst ridden walks ahead of you.


You still don't get it. (Never mind the whole projection thing. Accusing members of rude behavior yet the only one being rude, personal, and insulting is you.) But no, you're not getting that those high strung problem dogs aren't always the problem. It's those *friendly* dogs with ignorant owners who can cause as much if not more problems than a well-controlled, well-managed "problem" dog.

IOW, why don't you address your own dogs' behavior before throwing all those stones in that glass house of yours


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> Anyway, I have wasted enough time going around in circles defending my opinion on here, so you can all agree to differ with me and good luck with your nasty highly strung problem dogs. May you have many angst ridden walks ahead of you.


And in turn may karma bring you what you deserve .


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Dogless said:


> And in turn may karma bring you what you deserve .


And you Little Miss Military


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Dogless said:


> And in turn may karma bring you what you deserve .


Lets just hope the dogs aren't to suffer by it though


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2014)

cbrookman said:


> And you Little Miss Military


Reported.

:thumbdown:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cbrookman said:


> And you Little Miss Military


Little Miss Military?? I've been called some odd things before but really, do you have to even use the occupation I was proud of as an insult?


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