# Alaskan Malamute Acting Vicious!



## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Hey guys im new here, ive tried everywhere on the net to find this out as i have a 1 year old Mal called Freya, shes amazing, extremely playful and kinda hard work but shes worth it.

Recently though she seems more agressive, a couple of weeks ago she was in the living room on my couch lying down, it was about 10:30pm, i went to kiss her and she bit me, right in my face, deep cut and everything, quite close to my eye, now tbh i was messing around with her, and i think she got a bit miffed at me and thats why she did that.

But a few days later i went to kiss her again, at night again, and as i got close she let out a small, quiet growl so i backed off, and promptly told her off for growling at me, but since i was bit ive been quite wary of her now, as she always seems apprehensive when i go near her, or thats the feeling i get off her.

Even now though when i ask her for a kiss, she will slowly kiss me, but sometimes she will show her teeth, she'll still kiss me, but she will show her teeth slightly.

Now my mum keeps saying if she carries on shes going, but i dont want her to, so i keep saying maybe she needs obedient classes, because if any of you know Malamutes are a hard dog to train.

I really want to avoid getting rid of her, but if she gets worse im afraid we will have no choice.

What do you guys reckon, is this normal, should i get her into some obedient classes, i dunno what to do, its not like we havent had big dogs before as we had a German Shepard for 11 years, and 2 dopey mongrels for years too.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

How long have you had her? Tbh, she's probably going through her teen stage, but I don't know much about mals.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2010)

I don't know anything about mals, but it seems to me that she doesn't like to be kissed
i'm sure someone will come along that will be able to help soon.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

i dont mean to be offensive hun, but why do you have to get right in her face?
You are really invading her space and she is making it very clear she doesnt like it. Id definetely stop the kissing.
Now she is picking up on the fact that you are nervous when going right up close to her, she's not daft and its most likely making her unsure and she is telling you to back off.
Dont tell her off for growling tho, its important and she is trying to communicate with you in the only way she knows how. Id much rather have a warning than an unexpected bite!

My girl Shorty is 1 on the 11th so im going through the same "kevin and Perry" stage! you have to remember its normally about this time they become "teenagers" with stropiness and moods as they grow, which in mals can be alot harder to deal with and can seem utterly hopeless at times, especially if you have never experienced it.
Im assuming she's your first mally?

Classes could be a good tool to help you build up a bit of trust with her again and keep her busy mind occupied, provided her selective hearing doesnt kick in lol 
If you are still unsure or dont want to tackle this yourself find a good behaviourist to help and support you. Most sibes and mals are sold on between 1 and 2yrs old as their adolescent stage can be difficult but it does get better i promise!

im sure ther'll be the other nordic breed owners along to help soon too, my mind is a bit frazzled with lack of sleep - sorry


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Weve had her since she was........im pretty sure it was 10 weeks old, she turned a year old just over a month ago.

My dad is the one who she will listen to no matter what, hes the alpha where Freya is concerned, what he says goes, but my dad works nights so he aint there most of the time, but if he says something she will listen.

She listens to me i would say 50 - 60% of the time, same goes for my mum, she can be well behaved sometimes, but she is a giddy dog.

Also im kinda thinking she doesn't like being kissed, but even when shes sat down, her ears drop when i sit next to her as if shes been naughty, and shes ready to bite if anything happens.


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Starlite said:


> i dont mean to be offensive hun, but why do you have to get right in her face?
> You are really invading her space and she is making it very clear she doesnt like it. Id definetely stop the kissing.
> Now she is picking up on the fact that you are nervous when going right up close to her, she's not daft and its most likely making her unsure and she is telling you to back off.
> Dont tell her off for growling tho, its important and she is trying to communicate with you in the only way she knows how. Id much rather have a warning than an unexpected bite!
> ...


Ahhhh thank you, i kinda guessed it might be because she just doesnt like it, its probs because i used to kiss my other dogs, especially jesse my german shepard, she used to love it lol, i guess i have to get used to the fact Freya doesnt like it.

I honestly dont think we will get rid of her, we aint the type of people to do that tbh, i think there just empty threats off my mum lol.

Thanks for the advice aswell, i will definitely look into some classes, have to check my monies first though.

Oh and she looks exactly like the Mal in your profile pic, spitting image of her.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

TheDave545 said:


> Weve had her since she was........im pretty sure it was 10 weeks old, she turned a year old just over a month ago.
> 
> My dad is the one who she will listen to no matter what, hes the alpha where Freya is concerned, what he says goes, but my dad works nights so he aint there most of the time, but if he says something she will listen.
> 
> ...


welcome to malamute ownership lol, they are very stubborn and deaf when they want to be! She is still a pup so she will be giddy and she is going to get very cheeky in the next few months but keep it calm and consistent.

Her ears going back doesnt necassarily mean she is going to bite. It can mean submission, excitement and nervousness too, you have to take a look at her whole body to try and gauge how she is feeling. By now you should be able to tell when she is sitting relaxed or tense etc.

What do you mean by "ready to bite"? What gives you that impression (body movements, stance eye contact etc)?
Are you sitting down next to her alot on the floor, is she allowed up on furniture - does she act in the same manner if she is?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

As you can see I have three Malamutes and they all love being kissed right on the nose, so I don't think it's because you're invading her space. I'm pm-ing you a good Malamute forum where lots of experienced owners will give you some advice.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Have you never taken her to training? Do you do any training with her at home or on her walks? Ive got a full Malamute and a Malamute Siberian husky mix and both are trained. The Malamutes trained in the right way can be very good actually. My 22mth mal sibe mix is one of the best in her class. There is one rule with Mals you dont let them rule the roost. You give them Kind but firm fair training and respect for the primitive dog they are and the primitive behaviour they have and you will have the respect given back. If you treat them like they own the place then thats exactly what they will do. If they are not given any boundaries then they will run riot. I think you need to take her training and start keeping up the training at home. They respond to short bursts of reward based training best. They are not the sort of dog to do repetitive boring sits and stays. You have to keep it varied and interesting and reward them with praise and treats.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Stop trying to kiss her. She clearly doesn't like it.

She is probably apprehensive of you because she's realised that you don't listen when she tells you she doesn't like it.

Don't tell her off for growling - growling is her COMMUNICATING with you that she isn't comfortable with something. All she will learn if you tell her off for growling is that growling doesn't work. She may well stop growling - and then next time you try to kiss her (what's with the kissing thing, btw??) she won't growl, so you'll think "Ooh, she's learned her lesson and stopped growling!" and carry on trying to snog her, and she'll go straight for a bite. Often, when you hear of dogs snapping/biting "with no warning", it's because they HAVE warned, plenty of times - but been punished for it.

If someone tried to kiss you and you told them you didn't like it, would you appreciate it if they carried on doing it? I'm willing to bet that if you learned that saying "Go Away" didn't work, you'd move on to a slap round the chops...


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Malamutes should never be people aggressive, especially to their family, and showing aggression so young needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a bigger problem. 

Good advise to speak to experienced Mally owners, and I would most certainly look for a good trainer in your area. As said, Mals do go through a naughty adolescent stage, but aggression should not be part of that.

Could she have an underlying Heath issue that could be bothering her? Perhaps a check at the vet would be a good idea?

Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Our first Mal was a real eye opener and when people say they are a tough dog to train they are not kidding. I'm no spring chicken and have had dogs all my life, GSD, Dane SBT, JRT and nothing prepared me for the long haul of a Mal. You need to be firm but fair right from the start and that means at eight weeks old or they'll see your weakness and take over, just like sled dog says. They really are not like other dogs, still quite primal in many ways.

Aggression to people is NOT a part of a Malamute trait and being aggressive to their family is very very rare, it's usually dogs they can have problems with definitely not people.

I hope you join the forum and get some expert advice and also see a behaviourist. Mals are wonderful dogs but the first two - three years can be a bit of a trail, so hang in there, be consistent with training and make her earn everything she gets from you, by doing something in return, like sit, down, look etc. Work you put in now will pay dividends in the future and you'll have a lovely dog and - like the rest of us Mal owners - will probably want more. Beware they are addictive, lol.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I know very little about the breed, but that first time when she bit you, was she asleep by any chance? You might have startled her and now she is a bit wary. Some dogs do not like you in their face and it has nothing to do with breed. I would back off the kissing bit for now, though I know how tempting it is, and get on those Mal forums.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I think the OP needs to read up on dog body language - for a dog, a close stare is a threat and a challenge. If one dog wants to get really close to another they give lots of appeasement signals, like lip licking, flattened ears, averted eyes etc. Dogs don`t kiss each other, you see. One dog leaning over another with bared teeth is only going to do one thing - bite. So it isn`t really odd that your dog reacted. 
It`s easy to assume we understand our dogs but sometimes we need to remember they are a different species.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Def watch for body language and be consistent with training as going by the Mal forum I use this is not the norm, if fact I don't know of another Mal on that forum that shows this kind of aggression towards the owner and there are hundreds of Mals on there. Like I said - dogs, maybe but people no!

The NLIF programme is a good start: Nothing in Life is Free

Also this guy works wonders with problem Mals: Pack Leader - Celticwolf Alaskan Malamutes


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

To the OP, I hope you don't feel alone in kissing your dogs, there are plenty on here who do.  And I kiss the Mals every single day!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/122516-do-you-kiss-your-dogs.html

Hopefully when you work out the underlying aggression issue she will love kisses, just like all the Mals I know do.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> To the OP, I hope you don't feel alone in kissing your dogs, there are plenty on here who do.  And I kiss the Mals every single day!
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/122516-do-you-kiss-your-dogs.html
> 
> Hopefully when you work out the underlying aggression issue she will love kisses, just like all the Mals I know do.


lol i do too coz she is such a sweety, which is why i found it odd she suddenly didnt like it :confused1:
I have had quite a few people ask to pet her as they have been told they are agressive tho and this has worries me (posted ages ago). 5 mins with Shorty and they have a drool covered face and she's on her back for belly rubs!

I agree with Malamum on the same sex agression, my last male was a wee bugger with other boys, made walkies very fun :glare:


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

You know, with them becoming more and more popular, and more irresponsible breedings going I guess we will see more aggression problems in Mals.  Chatting to people in the breed 30 years or more it was something barely seen before.  So sad, but it's going on with all breeds I expect.

Also, I think people see big wolfie dogs and do assume they are aggressive. I get it a lot at work, people spot my screen saver and assume they're biters. I do think it's much better for people to ask though rather than just assuming and going to stoke the dogs. 

Personally, I would not accept a dog biting _at alll_, and biting just because you try to kiss them is not acceptable to me. I think it will become a bigger problem if not delt with now.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MarKalAm said:


> You know, with them becoming more and more popular, and more irresponsible breedings going I guess we will see more aggression problems in Mals.  Chatting to people in the breed 30 years or more it was something barely seen before.  So sad, but it's going on with all breeds I expect.
> 
> *Also, I think people see big wolfie dogs and do assume they are aggressive. I get it a lot at work, people spot my screen saver and assume they're biters. I do think it's much better for people to ask though rather than just assuming and going to stoke the dogs. *Personally, I would not accept a dog biting _at alll_, and biting just because you try to kiss them is not acceptable to me. I think it will become a bigger problem if not delt with now.


That is so true! I had someone today ask if my dogs had ever bitten any one, and that is just because they are so big, not wolf like. I told him their teeth are strictly for eating and scratching and they are not called gentle giants for nothing.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> That is so true! I had someone today ask if my dogs had ever bitten any one, and that is just because they are so big, not wolf like. I told him their teeth are strictly for eating and scratching and they are not called gentle giants for nothing.


  
I don't mind that though, much better than people who just barge over and grab your dog! Like in the vet, when you AND your dog are stressed people think they can just come up and fall all over them, THAT makes me angry.  
I may let my dogs off for biting them. :lol:


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks for the comments and advice people, sorry havent been back on, but seeing as i work in a game shop, its quite a busy week for us lol, and i havent had much sleep and whatnot lol, will be back later to speak more.

Thanks again.


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok, finally got some spare timeto talk, and as i type this, another thing just happened.

Im sat upsatirs so not 100% as to what happened, but i just heard my Mal go mental, so i went downstairs, and apparently my bro was either trying to get in the living room, or out, and he tried moving her out of the way and she just went mental and bit the actual door, the door is wrecked lol, it was new btw, but theres bite marks on it now, but cant really say as i wasn't there.

Anyways thanks for the comments, and advice, i really want to at least get her into some classes, but if shes snapping, biting, and actually growling at people, then im kind of a little worried about her, as it seems closer to the fact that my parents will get rid of her.

The thing is aswell we are not the type of people to easily give up on our pets, there always regarded as part of the family, Freya is no exception, but shes a lot more vicious than out other dogs we've had, Jesse our old German Shepard never went for any of us, the only time she growled or bit us was when we were playing, and even then she wasn't hard and as soon as she would bite us hard, her ears would be down and she would start licking us, same with Sheeba and Ziggy, Freya just bites and mauls when playing about and doesnt care, even when we tell her off, or say No in a authorative tone, she just doesnt bother, unless its my dad.

I would love her to stay and be more obedient, but even when we try she just doesnt listen.

We have our rules that she does manage to stick to, she has to stay in the kitchen when were eating in the dining room, she stays in the kitchen or garden during the day, but shes allowed in the living room with us at night, when i put her dinner out and say stay, she will, even when i put it down infront of her, she will attempt to go for it, but if i say NO, then she will stop, i can say stay and walk off and she will wait for me to tell her she can eat it, and i will praise her for stuff like that, especially her dinner as shes quite protective of her own food.

Anyways sorry for the long post lol.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Before you think of rehoming her or putting her rescue (given than this type of dog is increasingly ending up in rescue and they are bursting at the seams) please take her to the vet. She could possibly have some neurological problem that can be sorted with medication. I know little about the breed, but from what I have read it is very rare for a mal to be people aggressive. I think the vet needs to be your first stop, and ask him also if he can recommend a qualified behaviourist.

Try every road that is available before you think about rehoming.


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Before you think of rehoming her or putting her rescue (given than this type of dog is increasingly ending up in rescue and they are bursting at the seams) please take her to the vet. She could possibly have some neurological problem that can be sorted with medication. I know little about the breed, but from what I have read it is very rare for a mal to be people aggressive. I think the vet needs to be your first stop, and ask him also if he can recommend a qualified behaviourist.
> 
> Try every road that is available before you think about rehoming.


Believe me, i will try everything possible before rehoming is even on the cards, weve never rehomed a pet in our lives, and we dont intend to start now, Freya is due at the vet in a week i think, so when we go, we'll ask the vet then, hopefully he will have a number for a class we can take her too.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

TheDave545;1963806 she just went mental and bit the actual door said:


> Went mental and bit the door the door is wrecked LOL??? The only time she growled and bit us was when we were playing and even then she wasnt hard as soon as she would bite us hard???? Freya just bites and mauls when playing about and doesnt care???? Just think about what you have put in your post for a moment!!! Laughs out loud the door is wrecked. Are you for real?? The Dogs not the problem you are. You have a dog thats a natural breed with primitive drives above those of most domestic breeds and your allowing it to growl and maul and bite in play?? I bet your Dad doesnt do it with her or your other dogs. No wonder the dogs not no respect for you. Your encouraging the behaviour in play then wondering why shes using it when you want her to do something and she doesnt. Leave the dog at home and take yourself to training classes.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> Personally, I would not accept a dog biting _at alll_,
> and biting just because you try to kiss them is not acceptable to me. I think it will become
> a bigger problem if not [dealt] with now.


hey, MK! :--) 
do U believe in gravity? :huh: how about the earth being a globe? 
spinning on its axis? rotating around the sun, 3rd in line? 
*dogs bite - it is a fact; just like gravity, like a round planet. 
various dogs bite for various reasons; Stress is the primary trigger, and stresses are multiplicative, 
not additive.* please see this article for a good explanation of bites: 
How Are Dog Bites Like Tetris?


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

TheDave545 said:


> Recently though she seems more agressive, a couple of weeks ago she was in the living room on my couch lying down, it was about 10:30pm, i went to kiss her and she bit me, right in my face, deep cut and everything, quite close to my eye, now tbh i was messing around with her, and i think she got a bit miffed at me and thats why she did that.
> 
> But a few days later i went to kiss her again, at night again, and as i got close she let out a small, quiet growl so i backed off, and promptly told her off for growling at me, but since i was bit ive been quite wary of her now, as she always seems apprehensive when i go near her, or thats the feeling i get off her.
> 
> Even now though when i ask her for a kiss, she will slowly kiss me, but sometimes she will show her teeth, she'll still kiss me, but she will show her teeth slightly.


Please listen to what your dog is telling you. She doesn't want you in her face, what level of aggression does she need to escalate it to for you to understand that?

Please don't tell her off for growling- all you will do is teach her that growling doesn't get her listened to so she will start to by-pass a growl and go straight in for a bite. There is nothing more worrying than a dog that doesn't give you any clue about how they are feeling and can just 'explode'.



TheDave545 said:


> Also im kinda thinking she doesn't like being kissed, but even when shes sat down, her ears drop when i sit next to her as if shes been naughty, and shes ready to bite if anything happens.


I'm just wondering what punishment she recieves for been naughty?


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

TheDave545 said:


> Im sat upsatirs so not 100% as to what happened, but i just heard my Mal go mental, so i went downstairs, and apparently my bro was either trying to get in the living room, or out, and he tried moving her out of the way and she just went mental and bit the actual door, the door is wrecked lol, it was new btw, but theres bite marks on it now, but cant really say as i wasn't there.
> 
> Anyways thanks for the comments, and advice, i really want to at least get her into some classes, but if shes snapping, biting, and actually growling at people, then im kind of a little worried about her, as it seems closer to the fact that my parents will get rid of her.


I just want to echo other posters. This dog needs a full health check to rule out anything underlying causing these problems.

While training classes wont do her any harm, I actually think you should get a behaviourist in to see where things are going wrong in the household. Your vets should be able to point you in the direction of one (most behaviourists will only work with dogs after a vets referral). If she is insured, check the small print in your policy as it may cover it.

You need to take action with her now. For whatever reason, something is going seriously wrong. It needs stopping now before it gets worse and becomes a lifelong problem. Everyone in the household needs to be willing to work with her and be 'singing from the same sheet' so to speak.

What area are you in? Malamute Rescue, aswell as rescuing and re-homing dogs often work alongside owners having problems with their dogs to try and keep them in the home.

Link to rescue- AMCUK Rescue - Home

Contact details are on the home page just under the video on the right.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> *hey, MK! :--)
> do U believe in gravity? :huh: how about the earth being a globe?
> spinning on its axis? rotating around the sun, 3rd in line? **dogs bite - it is a fact; just like gravity, like a round planet.
> various dogs bite for various reasons; Stress is the primary trigger, and stresses are multiplicative,
> ...


Excuse me? Are you for real? lol Point out where I said either there is no such thing as gravity or that dogs don't bite? I said it should not be _accepted_, it needs to be_ dealt _with.

You can not simply say 'this dog is biting because it doesn't like me kissing it', and leave it there. Aggression needs to be dealt with before it becomes a bigger problem, which as you can see is now happening.

Thanks for your input here, and your sarcastic nature, but I don't feel I said anything to warranted that response.


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## fifimcq (Oct 14, 2010)

our collie x is like that in the evening,she is grumpy & worn out from the day,all she wants to do is just lie by herself & not be disturbed & if anyone does try to go near her she growls at you so we take that as back off I am a tired,grumpy hormonal girl (she is 2) & we just leave her to get her rest.I mean if any of the kids disturb me in bed when I am trying to sleep I growl at them to be fair lol.But I am not an experienceddog expert just someone whos 5 year old got nipped when trying to disturb her evening relaxations.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

TheDave545 said:


> Hey guys im new here, ive tried everywhere on the net to find this out as i have a 1 year old Mal called Freya, shes amazing, extremely playful and kinda hard work but shes worth it.
> 
> Recently though she seems more agressive, a couple of weeks ago *she was in the living room on my couch lying down*, it was about 10:30pm, *i went to kiss her and she bit me*, right in my face, deep cut and everything, quite close to my eye, *now tbh i was messing around with her, and i think she got a bit miffed at me and thats why she did that.*
> *But a few days later i went to kiss her again, at night again, and as i got close she let out a small, quiet growl so i backed off,* and promptly told her off for growling at me, but since i was bit ive been quite wary of her now, as she always seems apprehensive when i go near her, or thats the feeling i get off her.
> ...





TheDave545 said:


> Weve had her since she was........im pretty sure it was 10 weeks old, she turned a year old just over a month ago.
> 
> *My dad is the one who she will listen to no matter what, hes the alpha where Freya is concerned,* what he says goes, but my dad works nights so he aint there most of the time, but if he says something she will listen.
> 
> ...





TheDave545 said:


> Ok, finally got some spare timeto talk, and as i type this, another thing just happened.
> 
> Im sat upsatirs so not 100% as to what happened, but i just heard my Mal go mental, so i went downstairs, and apparently my bro was either trying to get in the living room, or out, and* he tried moving her out of the way and she just went mental and bit the actual door*, the door is wrecked lol, it was new btw, but theres bite marks on it now, but cant really say as i wasn't there.
> 
> ...


OK going to put my two pennies worth in here, this dog sounds nervous slightly timid, and is getting wound up by teenagers, and is IMO trying her best to let you know she just isnt into the "play fighting" the first instance is late evening when she is settling down she had probably been in a state of high excitement because as you say you had been messing about with her, and when she is settling after this "messing about" you have dove in right over her head to kiss her which she may have mis read due to the fact previously you had been messing about with her she reacted badly, but you also indicate in your posts that when you are "playing" its rough enough to get a growl and a soft bite from your previous dog, "Freya bites and mauls" those are your words, then IMO you shouldnt be playing these games, you are on one hand giving her licence to bite and maul by continueing to play in this manner,first off STOP PLAYING ROUGH WITH HER she is unsure of your games she sounds wary of you because she isnt happy with the situation, as for the incident with your brother, we do not know what he was doing immediately before trying to leave the room, or if he was trying to get into the room where she was positioned with regards to the door, was she lay right behind it asleep? seems strange that she bit the door unless there was some sort of "game" going on that involved the door? your dog needs training, you need to build a bond up with her, malamutes are NOT hard to train, you just have to do it right, sorry to sound harsh here, I dont like to hear of a malamute biting a person, this is not part of a malamutes makeup, this girl needs GENTLE CALM but firm handling, she needs to be taught her boundaries, you are not doing that at the moment by the sounds of it, a malamute, or in fact ANY dog should be taught from day one teeth and skin should never meet, your games are not teaching her anything apart from now she is learning that if she growls you will back off and the rough game that she obviously feels uncomfortable with stops. take her to training classes, they are not expensive, and worth it if you want a good dog that you can keep.

Mo


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Point out where I said either there is no such thing as gravity or that dogs don't bite?
> I said *[biting] should not be accepted, it needs to be dealt with.*


my point, MK, which i am sorry i did not seem to make clearly, was that anything with a mouth 
*can* bite - and EVERY dog **will** bite, what varies are the circumstances that will cause 
the individual dog to bite. *stop the kisses * is a simple way to deal with a problem 
that very-well might not have shown at all, otherwise.


MarKalAm said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> You can not simply say *'this dog [bites] because [she] doesn't like [being kissed]'*, and leave it there.


yes, if the *original-poster's actions*, i-e, swooping in to kiss the dog, are the trigger for the bite 
[which i strongly suspect], then if HE stops kissing, SHE stops biting. if HE keeps kissing her, 
the bites, very predictably and reasonably, IMO + IME, will escalate in severity - the choice is his. 


MarKalAm said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> *Aggression needs to be dealt with* before it becomes a bigger problem, which as you can see is now happening.


if U stop instigating the aggro-behavior [bites, snarls, air-snaps, whatever], U have effectively "dealt with it". 
how is it becoming a "bigger problem"? rough play frequently instigates bites - IME over the past 
30-years in dogs, if the kids STOP playing roughly, the biting, wrestling, mouthy behavior stops.

did U read the article? it's very good - and let me reassure U, *i didn't write it, LOL.* :thumbup: 
cheers, 
- terry


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Sorry, I still don't get where I said dogs *can't*or *wont* bite? 

So they stop kissing, the dog stops biting, thats fine. But what I am saying is they need to deal with WHY the dog is wanting to bite in the first place. And like I said, if that is not dealt with the dog will get worse...



TheDave545 said:


> but i just heard my Mal go mental, so i went downstairs, and apparently my bro was either trying to get in the living room, or out, and he tried moving her out of the way and she just went mental and bit the actual door, the door is wrecked.


Should they now just stop moving the dog out of the way in case it bites or 'goes mental', Or should the take the dog to a qualified trainer and try to get to the bottom of these problems??


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> Sorry, I still don't get where I said dogs *can't*or *wont* bite?
> 
> So they stop kissing, the dog stops biting, thats fine. But what I am saying is they need to deal with WHY the dog is wanting to bite in the first place. And like I said, if that is not dealt with the dog will get worse...
> 
> Should they now just stop moving the dog out of the way in case it bites or 'goes mental', Or should the take the dog to a qualified trainer and try to get to the bottom of these problems??


We dont KNOW what instigated the biting of the door, even the OP dosnt know for definate, if for instance, his brother was winding the dog up going in and out of the door and teasing the dog with the door then the dog may have bitten the door treating it as some sort of chew toy or trying to keep it open? IMO this dog is being wound up on a continual basis, no I do not agree a dog is OK to bite anything, but I dont think the poster and the family are doing this dog any favours. if a dog is not very confident then its going to react in different ways, sorry but to be honest this could be a perfectly fine dog that is JUST in the wrong hands.

Mo


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

moboyd said:


> We dont KNOW what instigated the biting of the door, even the OP dosnt know for definate, if for instance, his brother was winding the dog up going in and out of the door and teasing the dog with the door then the dog may have bitten the door treating it as some sort of chew toy or trying to keep it open? IMO this dog is being wound up on a continual basis, no I do not agree a dog is OK to bite anything, but I dont think the poster and the family are doing this dog any favours. if a dog is not very confident then its going to react in different ways, sorry but to be honest this could be a perfectly fine dog that is JUST in the wrong hands.
> 
> Mo


I agree! In my experience, if you want a nicely behaved, calm dog, then you have to be nicely behaved and calm with him. There are other games to play; hiding treats about the garden and asking him to find them, stuff like that. Even my two get very over excited when my friend comes round because he will insist on rolling about on the floor with them, when normally they are so calm you wouldn't know they were there.

You need, OP, to get in a behaviourist who knows what they are doing, and listen very carefully to the advice on offer. This dog does not like your games; simple.


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

The OP seems 2 b quite young looking at their posts, could b wrong here but he isn't the main carer I would assume?

I don't allow rough play with my dogs as they can play rough and it winds em up, so agree this should stop, hopefully they can sort this out b4 anything further happens here


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Ditsy42 said:


> The OP seems 2 b quite young looking at their posts, could b wrong here but he isn't the main carer I would assume?
> 
> I don't allow rough play with my dogs as they can play rough and it winds em up, so agree this should stop, hopefully they can sort this out b4 anything further happens here


I agree, but I think as he works in a shop he must be at least a teenager.

Mo


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

moboyd said:


> We dont KNOW what instigated the biting of the door, even the OP dosnt know for definate, if for instance, his brother was winding the dog up going in and out of the door and teasing the dog with the door then the dog may have bitten the door treating it as some sort of chew toy or trying to keep it open? IMO this dog is being wound up on a continual basis, no I do not agree a dog is OK to bite anything, but I dont think the poster and the family are doing this dog any favours. if a dog is not very confident then its going to react in different ways, sorry but to be honest this could be a perfectly fine dog that is JUST in the wrong hands.
> Mo


And I don't disagree with this. To be honest the more the OP says the more I am inclinded to agree the dog may well be being wound up. But from the first post it was not evident.

I kiss my dog 50 times a day, sometimes he probably does not like it, he would never dream of biting. I'm sure many would say the same of their own dogs, it is unusal for a dog to behave that way.

All I said was a dog should not react in this way, and they need to find out _why_. It may well be that the dog is being teased, and the rough play is not helping. But that was my point, there is a reason WHY the dog is acting like this. Whatever it may be.

Clearly the family can not see why, so a trainer would be their best bet.

And I don't know how that came across as me saying no dogs bite. 

I think the OP is very young, and perhaps their parents should be the ones concerned about the dogs behaviour?


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

moboyd said:


> sorry but to be honest this could be a perfectly fine dog that is JUST in the wrong hands.


It's seeming more and more likely.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> And I don't disagree with this. To be honest the more the OP says the more I am inclinded to agree the dog may well be being wound up. But from the first post it was not evident.
> 
> I kiss my dog 50 times a day, sometimes he probably does not like it, he would never dream of biting. I'm sure many would say the same of their own dogs, it is unusal for a dog to behave that way.
> 
> ...


In his first post he said
"Recently though she seems more agressive, a couple of weeks ago she was in the living room on my couch lying down, it was about 10:30pm, i went to kiss her and she bit me, right in my face, deep cut and everything, quite close to my eye, *now tbh i was messing around with her, and i think she got a bit miffed at me and thats why she did that.* thats when the flags went up for me, and following post also indicated this dog is being teased IMO, I too kiss my dogs so many times during the day its embarrasing, but I would never try to kiss one of my dogs if I had just been rough housing with them, mind you I never rough house with my dogs and get they so hyped up. I also agree the parents should be the ones that are concerned, because they are allowing their children to harrass this dog and eventually IT WILL go too far, and the dog is the one that will pay the price, to be honest I feel for the dog, and unless they get a REAL decent trainer or get to some good classes and listen to what their dog is trying to tell them, then I cant see a good outcome for this poor girl.

Mo


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

moboyd said:


> In his first post he said
> "Recently though she seems more agressive, a couple of weeks ago she was in the living room on my couch lying down, it was about 10:30pm, i went to kiss her and she bit me, right in my face, deep cut and everything, quite close to my eye, *now tbh i was messing around with her, and i think she got a bit miffed at me and thats why she did that.* thats when the flags went up for me, and following post also indicated this dog is being teased IMO, I too kiss my dogs so many times during the day its embarrasing, but I would never try to kiss one of my dogs if I had just been rough housing with them, mind you I never rough house with my dogs and get they so hyped up. I also agree the parents should be the ones that are concerned, because they are allowing their children to harrass this dog and eventually IT WILL go too far, and the dog is the one that will pay the price, to be honest I feel for the dog, and unless they get a REAL decent trainer or get to some good classes and listen to what their dog is trying to tell them, then I cant see a good outcome for this poor girl.
> 
> Mo


If they are teasing the dog, in my opinion, this is the most awful cruelty Teasing a dog or any animal is the most horrible thing that people do in the name of play. I hope the Poster, on reading all this, realises that. A teased dog will turn vicious, no matter what breed it is, and will soon learn to distrust anybody who comes near it.

Dogs need their space, like everybody else. I did ask at the beginning if the dog were sleeping when he went and kissed her, but I don't think I have had an answer. This poor dog is not being allowed to chill out, or rest when she wants to. I hope he comes back and refutes this, because right now I am so angry!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> Should they now just stop moving the dog out of the way in case [she] bites or 'goes mental',
> Or should [they] take the dog to a qualified trainer and try to get to the bottom of these problems??


several people have already suggested this, MK... 
do i need to reiterate the suggestion?  OK, here it goes - 
_* Please find a credentialed professional trainer to help - 
defined as 
* at the Minimum, APDT-uk member WITH B-Mod and aggression experience 
* preferably and even-better: an APBC or CAAB or COAPE member 
* top-ticket: veterinary-behaviorist

if the parental-units won't or cannot cover the price, ask them if they can cover the medical costs 
and/or the lawsuits or criminal damages if their dog seriously bites a non-family member, 
or bites one of their sons badly-enuf to need plastic-surgery.

* all teasing, rough-play etc, MUST * STOP in my opinion 
* if co$t consideration means DIY, find a training CLUB that does NOT talk about or use any 
of the dominance, rank-reduction, prong-collars, shock-collars, choke-chains, slip-collar, 
talk about 'pack leaders', top-dog, or any of the other usual catch phrases.*_

how was that, MK?  i think i summed it up fairly well. 
cheers, 
- terry


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Maybe I am naive, but I didn't think someone who was teasing their own dog would ask for advice when the dog then bites, I thought it would be pretty obvious.  So I assumed an underlying health/behaviour issue.

When I first read this thread I thought it was a concerned adult, wanting to sort out issues with their pet, I didn't really think it would play out the way it has. But when someone starts laughing as they say their 'dog went mental', I guess it's kinda clear?

Like you, my dog wouldn't bite when I kiss him, even if I were 'messing around with him', so to me biting is unacceptable.

Either way a trainer would do them good, even if it just to train the owners.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MarKalAm said:


> Maybe I am naive, but *I didn't think someone who was teasing their own dog would ask for advice when the dog then bites, I thought it would be pretty obvious.  So I assumed an underlying health/behaviour issue.*When I first read this thread I thought it was a concerned adult, wanting to sort out issues with their pet, I didn't really think it would play out the way it has. But when someone starts laughing as they say their 'dog went mental', I guess it's kinda clear?
> 
> Like you, my dog wouldn't bite when I kiss him, even if I were 'messing around with him', so to me biting is unacceptable.
> 
> Either way a trainer would do them good, even if it just to train the owners.


I think it is a definite that the owners need training!

The trouble is that too many people think that teasing is playing. They see no reason whatsoever why it should wind up a dog to aggression, or even a child for that matter. They don't seem able to put themselves in the dog's place and wonder how they would like it. I am in despair about this poor dog


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> do i need to reiterate the suggestion?


Not really, I suggested it in my first post. 



newfiesmum said:


> The trouble is that too many people think that teasing is playing.


I wonder if the parent will add to this thread, all seems a bit odd to me.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Alot of people will think im wrong here but i dont allow rough games with my mallys. They are very big dogs as you all know and they tend to put 100% into whatever they are doing, including trying to win and getting carried away. Malamutes are not generally aggressive dogs but they will NOT back down from a challenge.

I have kids in my house alot so rough housing can easily hurt them unintentionally. There are so many other things you can do with your dog than rough housing, i try and train her new tricks etc. I have seen people playing rough with their dogs and the dog often developes into quite an issue imo. Some become completely unbiddable and very challenging towards all members of the family because they have been able to be as rough as they like and the dog always suffers for it. (JUST MY OPINION!)

Thsi is my OHs first malamute and he's had some harsh lessons (and words) from me in the way he can play with Shorty. Its a steep learning curve but well worth it.

I really suggest you get onto the AMCUK and ask for help with your girl if you want to keep her and give her a happy life. She clearly isnt happy at the moment and if it were me Id want all this nipped in the bud NOW


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Starlite said:


> Alot of people will think im wrong here but i dont allow rough games with my mallys. They are very big dogs as you all know and they tend to put 100% into whatever they are doing, including trying to win and getting carried away. Malamutes are not generally aggressive dogs but they will NOT back down from a challenge.
> 
> I have kids in my house alot so rough housing can easily hurt them unintentionally. There are so many other things you can do with your dog than rough housing, i try and train her new tricks etc. I have seen people playing rough with their dogs and the dog often developes into quite an issue imo. Some become completely unbiddable and very challenging towards all members of the family because they have been able to be as rough as they like and the dog always suffers for it. (JUST MY OPINION!)
> 
> ...


I don't think you are wrong, Starlite. I agree with every single word. One should be calm with any big dog (I would myself say any dog) but these sorts of dogs need even more calm. Not that I pretend to know much about the breed, but these people seem to be just winding the dog up for their own amusement. That is not what dogs are for, to amuse us. This dog deserves so much more.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Starlite said:


> Alot of people will think im wrong here


I don't think so, I think most would agree! I do play and let them go 'nutty' from time to time, but I don't 'play rough', they'd have me over in seconds!! :lol:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I too agree starlite, I never rought house with my dogs either, never have done in nearly 50 years of living with dogs. I get the feeling its a "man" thing, I know when ever we get friends of my husband comeing to visit the first thing they tend to do when seeing the dogs is put their arm out and grrr grr at them, thankfully my dogs just give them a "are you stupid look" and ignor this behaviour lol, I also let the friends know in no uncertain terms that I dont allow that behaviour with my dogs. lol

Mo


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> Either way a trainer would do them good, even if [it's] just to train the owners.


a good trainer - experienced, *science-based*, dog-savvy and *educated in learning theory* - 
can genuinely help; IMO a "listener", pack-theory proponent, any "whisperer" other than *paul owens*, 
franchise-owners who train, dominance advocates, inexperienced trainers, those who cannot 
READ a dog's signals for the dog's emotion or intention, and similar well-intentioned 
but *unschooled* or *unskilled trainers* can make it worse.

rolling dogs [forcing them onto their backs], pinning them, punishing, intimidating, confronting, and so on, 
are IMO *the = fastest = way to develop or encourage defensive or outright offensive aggro.*

please choose any trainer with care, and i would not leave the dog in anyone's care unless i felt 
that i knew them WELL - and trusted them thoroughly; IOW, not a board-and-train situation, 
or even day-training [drop-off at their location or in the owner's home/neighborhood]. 
it is better to have the trainer work with the dog AND the owners + family - as everybody has to learn 
how to handle, teach, direct and reward the dog, and having the trainer oversee their practical 
application, allows the trainer to make suggestions, correct any errors before they become habits, 
and so on.

the usual pattern is that the trainer SHOWS everybody a few times, helps the dog practice, 
then asks each person to attempt it, tweaks their performance, and they try again.  practice makes perfect!
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

moboyd said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I get the feeling *its a "man" thing*, I know when... friends of my husband [come] to visit,
> *the first thing they tend to do when seeing the dogs is put their arm out and grrr grr at them*,
> ...


hey, mo!  yes, which is why i emphasized that there are 2 sons in this house - no mention 
of daughters [sisters], just the teen-boy and younger boy. *guys of all ages think rough-housing 
is fun and are amazingly pigheaded about engaging in it*, even after the dog has begun to bite, growl, 
avoid them, hide - under a table, in a crate, etc --- it's incredible but true, guys _like_ roughhousing 
and getting them to stop can involve major struggles - *up to and including rolled-magazines applied 
firmly to the head + shoulders of the males - HUMAN not dogs - involved.*

this is why **boys** from 5-YO to 9-YO are up to *ten times* more likely to be bitten 
than are girls, of precisely the same age.

good luck to the dog  
- terry


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Alot of people will think im wrong here but i dont allow rough games with my mallys. They are very big dogs as you all know and they tend to put 100% into whatever they are doing, including trying to win and getting carried away. Malamutes are not generally aggressive dogs but they will NOT back down from a challenge.
> 
> I have kids in my house alot so rough housing can easily hurt them unintentionally. There are so many other things you can do with your dog than rough housing, i try and train her new tricks etc. I have seen people playing rough with their dogs and the dog often developes into quite an issue imo. Some become completely unbiddable and very challenging towards all members of the family because they have been able to be as rough as they like and the dog always suffers for it. (JUST MY OPINION!)
> 
> ...


Totally agree! Its funny you should say about not backing down, zebs only a mal cross but theres a bloke who "thinks" hes playing but he actually slightly teases zeb which he hates- this makes walks difficult after because zeb is on a kind of high and needs an outlet from that challenge!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Can I just say I know there are people on this forum that do play rough with their dogs, but I will stand behind my train of thoughts that those dogs have been taught bite inhibition from and early age so DO know how far to take the game, but I dont beleive this dog has been taught bite inhibition to be honest they have had the dog from approx 10 weeks and if reading the post correctly( have always played this way with their previous dogs) so they have alearned behaviour, so have "played" rough with this dog allowing it to bite and maul everytime, the dog dosnt know any difference IMO it hasnt been taught when enough is enough.

Mo


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

moboyd said:


> ...I know there are people on this forum that do play rough with their dogs, but I... [believe]
> that those dogs [were] taught bite inhibition from an early-age so DO know how far to take the game,
> but I don't believe this dog [was] taught bite inhibition... they have had the dog from approx 10-WO
> and if _ read... correctly (...always played this way with... previous dogs) so [the 2 sons] have
> ...


_
i strongly suspect this also, mo  and the dog will pay dearly for her innocence and ignorance, 
i am very much afraid._


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have this terrible feeling that this Mal is going to end up in rescue, will not be rehomed because she has already bitten someone's face, and will end up pts because of the ignorance of her owners.

I wish he would come back on and tell me I am wrong, that we are just speculating.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daynna said:


> ...funny you should say about not backing down, Zeb's only a Mal-cross but there's a bloke who "thinks"
> he's playing... he actually slightly teases Zeb which he hates- this makes walks difficult after,
> because Zeb is on a kind of high, and needs an outlet from that challenge!


how about a good, rousing game of Tug Of Peace?  that often helps bleed-off frustration 
and stress, without making the dog more manic - they detox quite nicely, IME.


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I have this terrible feeling that this Mal is going to end up in rescue, will not be rehomed because she has already bitten someone's face, and will end up pts because of the ignorance of her owners.
> 
> I wish he would come back on and tell me I am wrong, that we are just speculating.


If she lands in rescue, I can guarantee she wont be given up on at the first hurdle. 

eta- OP, if you as a family don't think you can handle her problems, please seek help for her sooner rather than later. The more opportunity she has to practise these behaviours, the harder they will be to correct at a later date.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> how about a good, rousing game of Tug Of Peace?  that often helps bleed-off frustration
> and stress, without making the dog more manic - they detox quite nicely, IME.


I tend to run slightly with him or getting him smelling something out which seems to distract his mind again, But its a pain when we see another dog straight after even more so if its another male (he has slight agression with unknown males)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> *If she lands in rescue, I can guarantee she wont be given up on at the first hurdle. *eta- OP, if you as a family don't think you can handle her problems, please seek help for her sooner rather than later. The more opportunity she has to practise these behaviours, the harder they will be to correct at a later date.


If she is lucky enough to be given up to the breed rescue. What happens if they just give her to the RSPCA?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daynna said:


> I tend to run slightly with him or getting him smelling something out, which seems to distract his mind again,
> But its a pain when we see another dog straight after... even more so if its another male
> (he has slight aggro with unknown Ms)


i can imagine - Bummer!


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> If she is lucky enough to be given up to the breed rescue. What happens if they just give her to the RSPCA?


Then she could be screwed. 

I've sent you a pm TheDave.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If this dog ends up in AMCUK rescue and I hope she does - there is no way that Cynthia or Sam will give up on her, bitten or not that's not what they do. They have many foster homes and experienced trainers to call upon. They understand Mals a lot better than most and always look into the background/up brining and like most of us are well aware how stupid some people can be when raising a dog like a Mal. 

One thing's for sure, if rescue get their hands on her she will be well trained, balanced and most likely worked before she will be placed in another home. AMCUK are brilliant at assessing difficult/abused Mals and certainly know how to deal with problems caused by stupid owners. They also take some from the RSPCA/Blue Cross so if she goes there they could still get hold of her.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

The Dave is on line at the moment, I hope he takes the time to respond and maybe we can all work towards improving this girls situation?

mo


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Malmum said:


> If this dog ends up in AMCUK rescue and I hope she does - there is no way that Cynthia or Sam will give up on her, bitten or not that's not what they do. They have many foster homes and experienced trainers to call upon. They understand Mals a lot better than most and always look into the background/up brining and like most of us are well aware how stupid some people can be when raising a dog like a Mal.
> 
> One thing's for sure, if rescue get their hands on her she will be well trained, balanced and most likely worked before she will be placed in another home. AMCUK are brilliant at assessing difficult/abused Mals and certainly know how to deal with problems caused by stupid owners. They also take some from the RSPCA/Blue Cross so if she goes there they could still get hold of her.


 and have taken from manchester dogs home too, I agree with all you have said.

Mo


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Malmum said:


> If this dog ends up in AMCUK rescue and I hope she does - there is no way that Cynthia or Sam will give up on her, bitten or not that's not what they do. They have many foster homes and experienced trainers to call upon. They understand Mals a lot better than most and always look into the background/up brining and like most of us are well aware how stupid some people can be when raising a dog like a Mal.
> 
> One thing's for sure, if rescue get their hands on her she will be well trained, balanced and most likely worked before she will be placed in another home. AMCUK are brilliant at assessing difficult/abused Mals and certainly know how to deal with problems caused by stupid owners. They also take some from the RSPCA/Blue Cross so if she goes there they could still get hold of her.


I've pm'd TheDave and offered to help and had a reply accepting it.  I've left Sam a message but am willing to work with the owner to see if it is possible to keep her in the home and out of rescue. If not, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.



moboyd said:


> and have taken from manchester dogs home too, I agree with all you have said.
> 
> Mo


Zorro (as he got called) is doing really well. He's in the full throws of adolescence but doesn't have a bad bone in his body really, he's just a pushy puppy. He's had loads of interest but is still waiting for that special home. He's coming to Sherwood this weekend with my boys to let off some steam... I'm just hoping I don't land upside down in a ditch. lol


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Snuggles said:


> Zorro (as he got called) is doing really well. He's in the full throws of adolescence but doesn't have a bad bone in his body really, he's just a pushy puppy. He's had loads of interest but is still waiting for that special home. He's coming to Sherwood this weekend with my boys to let off some steam... I'm just hoping I don't land upside down in a ditch. lol


thats great that you have contacted The Dave, lets hope this gets sorted.

And THANKYOU for the update on Zorro, I knew he would be agood boy if in the right hands, hope you have fun at sherwood with him. and dont end up in a ditch lol.

Mo


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> I've pm'd TheDave and offered to help and had a reply accepting it.  I've left Sam a message but am willing to work with the owner to see if it is possible to keep her in the home and out of rescue. If not, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.


That is the best news I've heard since I started reading this post! Great stuff:thumbup:


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

moboyd said:


> And THANKYOU for the update on Zorro, I knew he would be agood boy if in the right hands, hope you have fun at sherwood with him. and dont end up in a ditch lol.
> 
> Mo


You're welcome.  He's got cheeky and naughty in just the right measures. He's just waiting for an owner that is up for a challenge and ideally needs a job to do.

In the mean time, he's having lots of fun. I shall try my best to avoid those ditches but his prey drive is typical of a Mal so I'm keeping my fingers crossed he doesn't spot anything small and fluffy. lol


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Great news snuggles, sounds like this family could do with some expert advice.


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

OH WOW, some of you people need to get off your high pedestals you've put yourselves on.

I come on here asking if there is an issue with my Mal, i even said i suspected it was my own fault because i was right in her face, i even said i think she may not like it, and besides snuggles who has actually PM'd me with some great help and advice, you people have actually questioned me and my family.

This is not our first dog, it is however our first Mal so we are going through the motions, i have no doubt Freya will become better over time, and will respond better, a lot of you act as though were some rundown family who just neglects there dog, and only plays with her when we feel like it, Freya gets so much love and attention you wouldn't believe, i look forward to coming home from work and being greeted by her, i love the way she talks (her woo wooing), shes an amazing dog, and a great addition to our family.

Theres no way i will believe that any of you people on your first Mals didnt have some problems.

Also i really dont think she will be rehomed, its just my mum who is all talk at the time, the heat of the moment talk.

She is going to the vet next week, we will ask the vet questions about her, and other questions that Snuggles has advised me to do.

Oh and another thing, there are no teenagers in this house, dont assume that because i live with my parents i must be a teenager, were not all on good money to get our own places yet.

Maybe i came to the wrong place.


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Hey Dave, apologies if ive offended u here, it came across as u being quite young in ya posts, so that's me told 

I know from experience with Rotts that they r not a breed u can rough play with, can't comment on Mals as i've never had 1, but glad u r getting help from an experienced owner and good luck with her :thumbup:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

TheDave545 said:


> OH WOW, some of you people need to get off your high pedestals you've put yourselves on.
> 
> I come on here asking if there is an issue with my Mal, i even said i suspected it was my own fault because i was right in her face, i even said i think she may not like it, and besides snuggles who has actually PM'd me with some great help and advice, you people have actually questioned me and my family.
> 
> ...


You came to the right place because although we may say things that you dont like to hear there ARE very experienced people who own malamutes, and we are all passionate about our dogs and dogs in general, I was one of the most prolific posters on this thread and never at any time did I or have I seen others say that you are some run down family, or that you neglect your dog? we have however been consistant in saying that Freya is not happy in the situation when being played with, no doubt a bit rough if there is biting and mauling involved(your words) we have all advised some training, both your dog and yourselves, with good qualified trainers, if you take offence at people being straight with you then unfortunately thats the way it is, we have been honest in our views, and we ONLY want the best for freya, I hope you stick around, because to be honest she is only 12 months of age, and now starting to go into her teenage stage, and if you think she is naughty now just wait a little longer and she may show you a whole new world of naughtiness and there are people on here that can help and advise that have been there done that and got the T shirt.

Mo


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

moboyd said:


> there ARE very experienced people who own malamutes, and we are all passionate about our dogs and dogs in general,


I've just pm'd Dave to say the same thing.

I agree with you completely Mo. 

I have no where near the years worth of experience as some of the people taking the time to post on this thread but I regularly see first hand the mental damage that can be caused to Malamutes through something as simple as a break down in communication between species.

Please do hang around Dave.

You might have fallen into the world of Malamute with a hell of an initiation (getting bitten on the face etc) but if you're willing to put the work in, there are people on here willing to support you every step of the way to help Freya become the dog she should be.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think some people thought you were just winding your dog up, that's why you got some of the responses you did as it sounded a little childish.

As for the wrong forum - yes perhaps you did, you would have been better going to Icebaymals forum but be warned if you think some replies here are harsh then you could be in for a shock on there. If you had researched the breed thoroughly you'd know straight away rough play is NOT the way to go with a young Mal or messing with her.

All the same that forum is obviously purely for Mals with a Husky section too and am sure you'll get lots of advice or even read through past threads on behaviour, training etc. it's a great site for Mal owners.

I've also had some stumbling blocks with my Mals but aggression towards humans is not one of them and quite rare.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

When you first posted I too gave advice and explained the personality of the Malamute like many of the others did. However when you posted after the 2nd incident if you read back yourself certain comments that you made like went mental and wrecked the door laughs out loud and references to previous biting and growling in play that did appear to be encouraging the behaviour all be it innocently on your part can be seen as yourself not taking the gravity of the situation seriously.

What you may also not realise people on here myself included see on a regular basis the damage and heartbreak caused to our beloved breed by people breeding and getting these dogs with no thought or knowledge. The dogs then pay the price sometimes with their lives because they are so damaged beyond repair they cannot be reholmed. The rescues are on their knees with the influx because these and other sled dog breeds have become popular.

Yes I may have given you a short sharp shock to the point of being rude I know but at least you may now be able to see the reasons that I and others did.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dave, I don't think you could have gone to a better forum for advice on your Mal. Obviously, when it comes to the welfare of an animal, people will get very heated; you have to accept that if you want advice. But you now have an expert on the breed willing and able to give you help and lots of other willing to support you; where else would you have got that?

I think you have done the right thing by asking and hope you take on board everything that has been said. And don't go away; let us know how she is doing.


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I've also had some stumbling blocks with my Mals but aggression towards humans is not one of them and quite rare.


Sadly, it is becoming more frequently seen, certainly in rescue circles. 

The gang of Mal's that live here, are all here partly due to behavioural issues.

Nook was very aggressive to both people and other dogs. He was also a self-harmer.

Rain is very nervous around people and will resort to aggression if someone invades her space.

Buki was stupidly dog aggressive and would re-direct that aggression to whoever was hanging on to the end of the lead.

Tamba arrived at 4 1/2 months old and I've never seen so much aggression in something so small. He was a major resource guarder, didn't like been handled and had no bite inhibition, drawing blood every time I attempted to do anything with him.

I have personally taken 2 Mal's to be pts because their aggression was so severe but on the flip side, we've sucessfully homed lots of dogs with problems after rehabilitation. 

With so many dogs now bred for greed above anything else and so many dogs bought on a whim, both the health and good nature of the breed is been damaged and it really does makes my heart sink.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Along with the others I too have been involved in the decision to have to PTS mals that had been placed in the wrong home and were *extremely* aggressive, because of their owners actions, not a decision taken lightly, and had a profound effect on me, I dont think there is ANYTHING worst then standing there watching the light go out of a dogs eyes, one that looks like one of your own, and not be able to even comfort them. this is where many of us on this thread are coming from, we know what can possibly happen if this is not caught in the bud.

mo


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Stop trying to kiss her. She clearly doesn't like it.
> 
> She is probably apprehensive of you because she's realised that you don't listen when she tells you she doesn't like it.
> 
> ...


Halleluiah!
I agree 100% :thumbup:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Unfortunately with the availabilty of free ad sites I should think byb's & pf's are in their element and will continue to flood the market with all sorts of breeds without any real knowledge of what they are actually breeding, let alone be willing to offer lifelong advice and take back a pup/dog if it's ever in the position to be re homed. Free ad sites have a lot to answer for in the rise of unwanted/re homed dogs and pups, something that Dogs Today also pointed out recently.

I have to agree that this forum is a wonderful place for help and advice but IMO it doesn't compare with the knowledge of a specific breed forum, where there are many breeders/showers/workers who have in excess of 30-40 years experience in one breed alone and the know how of all the trials and tribulations owning that breed entails, particularly when dealing with Mals who really are not like other dogs in general.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi Dave! I know nothing about mals so I'll stay out of this as there are some very experienced people helping you out already.

I know some of the posts may come across as getting at you but trust me they're not! Some people are more blunter than others and it's very hard to convey your tone of voice of the internet.

I hope everything works out ok in the end - you're a great owner for speaking out and asking for help! X


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Unfortunately with the availabilty of free ad sites I should think byb's & pf's are in their element and will continue to flood the market with all sorts of breeds without any real knowledge of what they are actually breeding, let alone be willing to offer lifelong advice and take back a pup/dog if it's ever in the position to be re homed. Free ad sites have a lot to answer for in the rise of unwanted/re homed dogs and pups, something that Dogs Today also pointed out recently.
> 
> I have to agree that this forum is a wonderful place for help and advice but IMO it doesn't compare with the knowledge of a specific breed forum, where there are many breeders/showers/workers who have in excess of 30-40 years experience in one breed alone and the know how of all the trials and tribulations owning that breed entails, particularly when dealing with Mals who really are not like other dogs in general.


I agree that forum does have some knowledgeable people on it, it also has if its not changed much over the years some instant experts unfortuately that "may" give inappropriate advice, but I am sure the people on there that do have true experience with the breed will help keep this in check, its always worth joining a forum that is breed specific,

Mo


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

moboyd said:


> I agree that forum does have some knowledgeable people on it, it also has if its not changed much over the years some instant experts unfortuately that "may" give inappropriate advice, but I am sure the people on there that do have true experience with the breed will help keep this in check, its always worth joining a forum that is breed specific,
> 
> Mo


The only forum I can find that is breed specific to newfoundlands is American! The one I found in the UK is hopeless, nobody ever posts, quiet as the grave.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Thats a shame as there are lots of Newfies about. Perhaps they are an ideal breed and don't need discussions on behaviour, health etc. It's so nice to talk to other owners about your breed though and as Mallies are often workers theres always lots to talk about and lots of showers/breeders on the Mal forum too, I love seeing pics of other peoples Mals too. Everyone posts on their dogs birthdays and always get lots of birthday wishes. Such a shame your breed doesn't do it - perhaps you could start the ball rolling!


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok, been working a lot past few days, so i decided to post an update before i went bed.

Update 1: Not been able to drive her to the vets this week, as my mum and I have been working non stop (xmas money), so i havent been able to drive her up there and neither has my mum, but as soon as we get a day off during the week, shes being taken.

Update 2: Just found out why she went mental and wrecked the door, a couple of days before the incident we put draft excluders on the bottom of our living room doors, now because the floor is laminated it makes a sort of brushing (sweeping) noise as it opens and closes, i never really noticed this, i should have realised this tbh straight away, as when were in the back garden sweeping up, she loves to play with either the leaves im sweeping, or the brush im using, now because that is the exact same noise it makes when opening and closing the living room door, albeit a little quieter, she must have thought it was play time, and went for the door just as she goes for the leaves or the brush outside.

At least now i know why she did it, and i can be a bit more cautious when shes around it next time.

Update 3: Shes been great for past week and a half, well behaved, no messing, or biting, or growling, she comes to me every now and again and kisses me lol, this could be a temporary thing but during the week im getting her to be a little better behaved when it comes to food, and daytime playing (where to play and where not to play - Kitchen = Good, Living Room = Bad).

So there ya go, will keep you posted.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

great!  any step in the right direction counts, and i hope things continue to get steadily better.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

good to hear youre making positive steps :thumbup:


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Hi Dave,

I'm just wondering how your girl is getting on? Did you take her to the vets?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> The only forum I can find that is breed specific to Newfoundlands is American!
> The one I found in the UK is hopeless, nobody ever posts, quiet as the grave.


that's cuz all the Newfies in the UK are perfectly well-behaved, with no need for behavioral advice.  it's true!

:lol: :lol: OK, it's not true -  but i had ya going for a second, there! :thumbup:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> that's cuz all the Newfies in the UK are perfectly well-behaved, with no need for behavioral advice.  it's true!
> 
> :lol: :lol: OK, it's not true -  but i had ya going for a second, there! :thumbup:


Yes, I did think for a moment "what on earth is she talking about? Hasn't met the one round the corner" :lol:


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I'm just wondering how your girl is getting on? Did you take her to the vets?


Oh man i totally forgot about this post haha, yea she got the all clear, shes been doing brilliant since, still got that mischievous side lolol, but all in all good.

Took her out in the snow few days ago, just loves it, she cant get enough of it, im pretty sure whe it started snowing that was her xmas, really excited.

Oh and a little comedy side note, with my old dogs when we were about to take em for the walks, we would always say "walkies" and they would get giddy, Freya just doesnt respond to that at all, but if we say you want your Tatters, hahaha she goes nuts, because she knows that walkies time, just mad.


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## TheDave545 (Nov 8, 2010)

Hey guys, back again.

Bit of deja vu going on here, shes back to her old ways ill try and go into a little more detail this time.

First off she seems to be growling a lot more, especially when we give her treats, before she gets her treat we often ask for her paw or kiss and she does it no problem, sometimes she will growl as if shes being impatient with us and wants it now.

Ankles......for some reasons she has been snapping at peoples ankles, she bit my grandads a while back, more of a snap than a bite you would see from an attack, she still drew blood though, then theres everytime my cousin walks past she will snap at his ankles.

The other day my Mum was doing the Sunday roast, cutting the meat, doing the gravy and veg all that stuff, then with Freya sat there in the kitchen watching my Mum do the food she growled at her, now this was a straight, out of the kitchen into the back garden....naughty time.

Today she growled at me when i started stroking her, also when anyone comes in that we know, but is an obvious stranger to her, and even people she has seen loads of times she will walk up to them with her tail wagging as if to say hello, then after a few mins of sniffing she will let out a low growl which at this point we put her in the kitchen away from them.

Just not sure what to do at this point, shes now 2 years old aswell, the one person she will listen to no matter what is my Dad, whatever he says goes, shes very disobedient too, but we have trained her since a pup, she knows right from wrong but most of the time she just doesnt listen, the only approach i can think of is everytime she snaps and growls at people we put the muzzle on, keep her around the same people but with the muzzle see if that sends the message that it wont be tolerated.

And sorry for the LOOOOOONG post, if you have read to the end then you get a cookie, 2 for good advice lol

Cheers peeps!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I've read the start of this thread, and my mind is blaring at you to get a qualified behaviourist in to show you how to work with this problem.

Check for APBC or COAPE behaviourists. 

This dog is not in control, and is obviously dealing with many anxieties in its life. Freya sounds as if she is very confused in her environment, and has learnt that by snapping and biting, threats are removed. 

Please, please, please do not punish her for growling, snapping or biting. This is what is called 'suppression'. The dog does something you don't like (but is a very much involuntary response from them) and they get shouted at for feeling anxious and fearful. This builds up more stress, perhaps reducing the behaviour somewhat at the time. Essentially, it just doesn't work and she is not learning to trust anyone or feel relaxed in the situations she is in. 

I'm sorry, but it's clear you need more help than this forum. Stop the punishing. Crate train her if she hasn't been already, so she has a safe place to be away from everyone else. If she growls, snaps, and/or bites, don't just react to the situation ("Bad dog!") but understand why she's doing it, move away from her and think proactively about how you are going to make her feel more comfortable in that environment.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

TheDave545 said:


> Hey guys, back again.
> 
> Bit of deja vu going on here, shes back to her old ways ill try and go into a little more detail this time.
> 
> ...


Its likely she is now beginning to fully mature, Malamutes do respond best to 
fair firm handling and on going training. So if you have been easing off the training recently then that may be a reason, it should be regular and ongoing.
Give a Mal an inch and it will take advantage and have a yard, but handled an trained in the wrong way you can create more of a problem. Dont forget they are a primitive breed with primitive drives and if nervous,fearful,challenged in fear or anything else likely the reaction will be multiplied to some other breeds. She probably doesnt do it with your Dad because she respects him Im guessing he has a really good relationship with her.

Malamutes can have Thyroid problems, Underactive thyroid. Some forms which can be hereditary. The hereditary form can make an appearance before 3 years old, Hypo Thyroid can effect behaviour, making dogs, nervous,fearfull and agressive too. It is a problem in the Sled Dog Breeds. Siberians and Malamutes. To give you a clue how common it is Ive owned 3 Siberians who have had the it, they had the idopathic version comes on in older age. But my Malamulte/Sibe cross whos only 2half now has the hereditary auto immune version and was diagnosed at 2yrs. So personally I would be getting a Thyroid function test, Not just a T4 at the vets either.
It needs to go off for the full function minimum Free T4, Total T4, TSH, and TGAA Thyroglobulin Auto Antibodies. The TGAA will tell you if she has the Auto Immune Version, If the counts up and even if the vet says the rests Low end of normal and OK, Or even if the TGAA isnt up and the others at the low end of normal or "within the reference range" then thats not always what it should be in a young dog, and can mean she will sink into it anyway.

How much exercise does she get a day, Ideally she should be getting longer walks, at least one, probably two (although mine have had less recently with the heat and humidity but will be upped as the weather cools) I would also do 2 or 3 training sessions with her a day mixed with some interactive structured play. even around 15mins a time can help. My Malamute can be demanding, but he doesnt growl or snap, he sits and barks and whinges when he wants something instead, He doesnt always get it either, where as my OH
will "give" and then moan because he is whinging, so they are a very intelligent breed and learn what and with who they can get away with very easily. The secret is to make rules clear and they will respect it if its done in the right way.

I would really consider a behaviourist, who can assess and read her body language and when and why she is doing the behaviour, then they can put you a proper tailor made plan in place for you to follow. Mals are not a dog for a novice and are different to other breeds, I had several sibes before I got mine and I can tell you they are different, I still had to go through a big learning curve with mine and I wasnt a total novice to sled breeds either.


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